# Waking up to life's update



## Waking up to life

Just thought I'd update you all on a conversation I had recently with my husband. He got angry about a comment I made on Facebook...very long conversation ensued about his unhappiness with my attitude lately, being more "aggressive" and outgoing and doing things apart from him; he said he misses the coy, shy, quiet person he married. We talked a long time about both of us having issues we need to address. I told him how hurt I was that he got angry about me wanting to go to counseling. He admitted he didn't handle that right. I asked him if he could support me in getting the help I need, just like I've always done for him over the years.

And I asked him if he'd consider seeing a psych again to address his bipolar 2 (and I believe possibly BPD or Asperger's). He's hesitant to do that because he's had bad experinences in the past with them and is afraid it will be a big waste of time and money again. I asked if he would at least then start by seeing a counselor with me. He said "sure, but I don't know what you'd want to talk about." I said, "how about everything we've just spent the last hour talking about?" :slap: 

He is hesitant to go because he said he knows he'll just be told about everything that's his fault and he'll try to be better but then if he messes up again I'll leave him. I told him if he goes into it with that attitude, he's right. I asked him to do it, not to humor me, but to show willingness for us to improve our marriage. So in the end, he agreed to go. But at the end of our conversation, his voice changed to sounding like a very fragile 5 year old and he was twisting his blanket in his hand nervously. Just awkward.

That conversation happened on Monday. As usual, the rest of the week he acts like the conversation never happened. I truly think he was hoping I'd just forget about it. But Friday I told him I saw the counselor by myself and scheduled an appointment next week for both of us to go. Again the fragile 5 year old came out...he acted exactly like if you were to tell a 5 year old they had to go to the doctor for a scary test or something. But he also seemed suprised or disappointed in a way, like he didn't think I'd actually follow through with it. 

All of this might seem pretty tame to some of you, but for me it's a huge milestone. To finally jump that hurdle and start having those uncomfortable conversations with him and tell him I want him to support me in going to counseling. The conversation was difficult, because he is good about talking in circles until we forget what we were originally taking about. But I didn't let him get away with it this time.

I'm looking forward to our first counseling session, but at the same time I'm dreading it. I know it means we will have to start really digging into very uncomfortable issues such as his health and weight gain and our poor sex life and differences in lifestyle because of it. But...it must be done. I'm hoping, no matter what, I'll at least start seeing things more clearly and can stop living in limbo about our marriage.


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## tryingtobebetter

Good for you. I hope it goes well.


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## Uptown

I second that wish! I join Trying in wishing you both the best of luck at your meeting with the councelor, Waking.


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## Waking up to life

Thanks both of you. Uptown, I thought of you when I typed the thing about him regressing to acting like a frightened 5 year old. You mentioned something about BPDers being stuck emotionally at around a 4 year old level. Makes sense...

I appreciate the well wishing, but must admit I'm cautious about being too hopeful. Last thing I want is to spend months or years trying and trying and waiting to see if this is going to work. At some point, I just feel like I can't keep staying in a marriage that I have to work so hard at making it just tolerable. I want my fair share of normal for once. I guess we'll see... My counselor assured me that most couples he works with have a pretty good idea of what they want to do by the time they've gone through no more than 6 sessions with him. That does give me some hope.


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## KathyBatesel

It's true that it will probably only take a few weeks to know what you want to work on. He may not last that long, though. It sounds like he is hypervigilant to any kind of perceived criticism, but at the same time it sounds like he's aware that his behavior's not ok. 

It bothers me to hear that he knew he "handled it wrong" when you asked him before, yet never bothered to acknowledge it until something else comes up that's important to him and you revisit it.


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## Waking up to life

Kathy, you are right...he is and always has been hypersensitive to anything he perceives as criticism. And he tends to perceive things as criticism that really aren't. So when he actually IS being criticized, he has a really hard time with it. This is why it's always been so hard for me to talk to him about my concerns, like his weight, or wanting a new house, or anything. 

The time I tried to very gently suggest that if he'd lose weight, maybe he would feel less joint pain and not have to take BP meds (two things he was complaining about at the time), he pouted and wouldn't talk to me for a day or two. 

Heck, one time my H, my son, and I were playing Rock Band and were having fun together. My H took on the singing part on one song. After we were done, we all laughed about my H's low score he got on his singing. I said it sounded like maybe it was just too high of a song for him. He got all disappointed and didn't want to play anymore with us after that. So it killed our fun family time. That's a stupid example of his sensitivity, but shows how sensitive he is. 

So what I suspect he may do in counseling is take all the criticism, allow it to validate his feelings that he's worthless and he can't do anything right, and he'll try to improve things but not really because he thinks they should improve, but more in a martyr kind of way, which doesn't really fix things. Maybe I'm wrong, but this is his usual pattern.


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## KathyBatesel

It really doesn't matter if he does it as a martyr or not, as long as he does it and makes it permanent. If he gets a load of approval for his changes, he may make them permanent. 

I'm hypersensitive to criticism, too. Always have been. Actually, it's probably more accurate to say I'm hypersensitive to what I perceive as people attempting to control me - even when they're really not. 

I've found that there have been a couple of people who I don't have that response with, like my husband. It seems to me that the difference lies in whether someone does these things: 

1. Lets me know up front what their intentions are, such as "It's up to you if you want to take my advice, but here's what I'd recommend..." 

2. Apologizes if they do cross a line. "Yes, my remark was insensitive. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings." 

3. Makes sure they understand my viewpoint before repeating their own for the twentieth time.

Maybe if your husband's that sensitive to criticism, using softening words might help him recognize that you're not criticizing HIM as a person, but seeking something that's good for both of you?


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## Waking up to life

This is one of the major reasons for the breakdown in communication in our marriage. He's extremely sensitive, takes everything as personal criticism, so I learned to clam up and stop expressing my feelings and needs. The aftermath of guilt or plain old invalidation of my feelings became too hard to deal with. And this is why we need counseling. I feel like if we are to continue in our marriage, I need to be able to express my own emotions and needs freely to him. I guess it's called emotional safety. And right now, I do not feel safe emotionally with my H. If he is so wrapped up in his own issues and emotions and cannot provide me with emotional safety, I think it's going to be a deal breaker for me. If I have to worry about how carefully I word every sentence to him so that he doesn't feel attacked or criticized, then perhaps he should be married to a psychologist. I'm tired of playing that role. Our whole marriage, I have been the one to adjust to him, to understand him, to not take things personally, to be the cheerleader, psychologist, nurse, problem solver. Now I feel like its MY turn to be understood, concerned about, cheered on, and taken care of emotionally.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## northernlights

I know the feeling, waking_up. I'm not sure if you're like me (i'm guessing you are), but I can give and give and give to people, and I don't mind that, so I often find myself in very emotionally one-sided relationships. But for some reason (youth? naivety?) I'd always assumed that those relationships would/could reverse if *I* became the emotionally needy one, and the people I'd given so much too would be able to support me back. 

I think that's why my H's emotional abandonment came as such an awful shock. I had been there for him, and I had just assumed that when I got weak, he'd be there to me. But instead, I got weak, and I feel like he just pushed me further down. Not on purpose necessarily, but because he wasn't strong enough to stop needing me for a little while and give.

My H does the same "deer in the headlights," frozen in fear thing as yours when I bring up counseling or my feelings. Just stares straight ahead and stops responding, then hopes it'll all just go away. 

If it gives you hope, though, mine has made a little progress in the last few weeks. He's lying less often.


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## Uptown

Waking up to life said:


> If I have to worry about how carefully I word every sentence to him so that he doesn't feel attacked or criticized....


If he has strong BPD traits -- as you suspect -- he will feel offended by you no matter what you do. Even if you keep your mouth shut all the time, he will feel offended and will blame you for every misfortune. What happens is that, because a BPDer is so filled with shame and self loathing, his subconscious will protect his fragile ego from seeing too much of reality. This is done by subconsciously projecting all bad thoughts and feelings onto you, allowing his conscious mind to truly believe that these bad thoughts are originating with you, not him. The sad reality, then, is that -- if he is a BPDer -- you will be triggering his fears and anger by simply being in the same room with him. You don't have to say a thing to get blamed.


> ...perhaps he should be married to a psychologist. I'm tired of playing that role.


You're not playing that role. If he is a BPDer, it would be more accurate to describe your role as that of parent, not psychologist, because his emotional development is frozen at the level of a young child. If you are married to a BPDer, your relationship is essentially parent/child, not wife/husband. 

Moreover, even if you obtained a PhD in psychology, it wouldn't do him any good. Indeed, a team of psychologists likely won't be able to help him because it is rare for a BPDer to have the ego strength and self awareness necessary to work hard in therapy. I took my BPDer exW, for example, to six different psychologists in weekly visits for 15 years. It didn't even make a dent in her behavior.


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## KathyBatesel

^ That's a good point. I get myself in trouble because I'm so ... whatever... that I'd have made the same observation in hopes that he'd blame the song and not himself. But the response I've gotten sometimes from others is that I'm acting superior or arrogant.


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## Waking up to life

Mavash. said:


> I'm wondering why you felt the need to tell him WHY he got a low score? Why say anything? BPD'ers are like children. I once made a similar comment to my daughter about a video game and she got upset. I realized after that I should have just kept quiet. She didn't ask for my input so I don't know why I felt compelled to give it to her. All I did was hurt her feelings.


The reason I said anything at all was I was trying to make him feel better about it. All of us ended the song laughing (we all did pretty bad and we knew it!). My H said something like he thought he did better than that and didn't know why his score was so low. So I said I thought the song was maybe just too high, out of his vocal range for him to be able to hit all the notes. Not that he was a bad singer, but that the song was just too high for his voice...again, everything comes down to me soothing him, trying to reassure him, tell him he wasn't so bad, etc. But regardless of my explaination, he started in on his "I shouldn't play with you guys...I suck, and I just ruin it for you..." Then he left the room and wouldn't play anymore, despite both me and my son begging him to stay and play more because we were having fun. Believe me, knowing how sensitive he is to criticism, I wouldn't have said anything to deliberately criticize him during a fun family time! Those times are very few and far between.


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## Waking up to life

Uptown said:


> If he has strong BPD traits -- as you suspect -- he will feel offended by you no matter what you do. Even if you keep your mouth shut all the time, he will feel offended and will blame you for every misfortune. What happens is that, because a BPDer is so filled with shame and self loathing, his subconscious will protect his fragile ego from seeing too much of reality. This is done by subconsciously projecting all bad thoughts and feelings onto you, allowing his conscious mind to truly believe that these bad thoughts are originating with you, not him. The sad reality, then, is that -- if he is a BPDer -- you will be triggering his fears and anger by simply being in the same room with him. You don't have to say a thing to get blamed.


Oh boy do I know that feeling. I wish I had understood what was going on years ago when he was REALLY bad about projecting. Often times, he'd be hungry and grumpy about something...I'd come into the kitchen to help him get something to eat. Even the way I sat the plate on the counter was enough to start the projecting. He'd get angry and me and say "Why are you being so b**chy?? You're obviously hungry, so you just need to settle down and eat something!" I literally did nothing more than set the plate on the counter, or shut the silverware drawer a little too hard (not in anger). So many times I was baffled at this absurdity. It makes sense now. 

A few months ago I drove his car but forgot to get gas in it before I came home. So it was just below 1/4 tank (which is plenty, but he's very anal about not letting the gas even get as low as 1/4 tank EVER). He mentioned it the next day, and I said I was sorry, I just totally forgot to check it, since I wasn't used to driving his car. Well...a few weeks ago during an argument about something else, he said that he is POSITIVE I purposely didn't get gas in his car that one time to PUNISH HIM for getting a new car. As though I was either jealous of his new car or thought he shouldn't have bought it, so I was PUNISHING him for it by almost running his car out of gas. 

Again, regardless of the explaining, talking, reassuring him that I just made a simple mistake, he STILL thinks I was punishing him. I told him it's hurtful to me that he assumes I have malicious intent like that. He just shrugs and won't respond, because in his mind, there is NO QUESTION that I was being malicious and there is no convincing him otherwise. 

I expect therapy may uncover many other things he assumes ill-will about on my behalf. That's the kind of thing that I know I cannot overcome on my own. If he chooses to think this way and can't/won't try to change his thinking or behavior, I can't stay with him. It's just too damaging to me.


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## Waking up to life

Well, tonight was our first MC session. My H participated pretty well. The session goes by so fast, especially when there is so much to talk about. The conversation was a lot about our differences in parenting styles, which causes some conflict between us that we don't seem to get resolved. It wasn't what I really wanted to talk about at our first visit, but I think the therapist saw this as a common problem between the two of us that both of us could address, rather than pick on a problem that is about primarily one or the other of us (so neither of us felt attacked). 

So after we got home, my H sat in his chair half watching TV...anytime I'd look over at him, he'd close his eyes, like he knew I was looking at him and he wanted me to see how exhausted he was (he does this a lot...it irks me a little). He said very, very little...just acted very sad and mopey. 

How do I handle this? My usual codependent reaction would be to try to cheer him up, tell him everything's ok, act all cheerful, etc. I feel like I should let him stew about it a little while. Let him talk to me if/when he wants to, but don't play the psychologist this time and try to draw it out of him. But if I let him stew, he'd probably take that as me not caring about his feelings.


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## Uptown

Letting him stew sounds fine to me, Waking.


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## 3Xnocharm

I would say let him stew. Let him be with his feelings about the session.


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## pink_lady

I think your husband and my husband should get together and go bowling.


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## Waking up to life

Waking up to life said:


> Well, tonight was our first MC session. My H participated pretty well. The session goes by so fast, especially when there is so much to talk about. The conversation was a lot about our differences in parenting styles, which causes some conflict between us that we don't seem to get resolved. It wasn't what I really wanted to talk about at our first visit, but I think the therapist saw this as a common problem between the two of us that both of us could address, rather than pick on a problem that is about primarily one or the other of us (so neither of us felt attacked).
> 
> So after we got home, my H sat in his chair half watching TV...anytime I'd look over at him, he'd close his eyes, like he knew I was looking at him and he wanted me to see how exhausted he was (he does this a lot...it irks me a little). He said very, very little...just acted very sad and mopey.
> 
> How do I handle this? My usual codependent reaction would be to try to cheer him up, tell him everything's ok, act all cheerful, etc. I feel like I should let him stew about it a little while. Let him talk to me if/when he wants to, but don't play the psychologist this time and try to draw it out of him. But if I let him stew, he'd probably take that as me not caring about his feelings.


Well, I guess I posted this too soon. Right after I posted this, we went to bed. We were laying there in the dark, and I said goodnight and I told him I appreciated that he came to the therapy appt. He launched into a discussion about it by saying, "This isn't going to work, I can already tell." He said the therapist is just like the other one we went to several years ago, with all the "psychobabble" about validating feelings and so on. He said it's just dancing around the issues. He felt like the therapist was pinning everything on him and wanting him to change his behavior and not telling me that some of my thinking was wrong too, thereby saying that my "disconnected half-assed parenting" was ok. 

I let that comment go, even though it hurt my feelings, and just asked if he would give it more time...there's no way we could expect the therapist to help us solve all of our problems in just one 45 min session. He said he just wants the therapist to "tell it like it is", not dance around the issues. If the therapist thinks my H is wrong and is being a jerk about something, he thinks the therapist should just say "hey, you're being a jerk". And if I'm wrong about something, he wants the therapist to tell me flat out too...for instance, we talked about how it bugs my H that I like to sleep in later on the weekends. I'm usually up by 8 or 9 (during the week I'm up at 6 a.m.) My H said in therapy that it's really more like 10 a.m. (not true!!). So...my H said that it would have been more productive for the therapist to have told me that I'm just being lazy "because you ARE!" he said. Another hurtful comment I let go...

Basically he thinks I'm dragging him to therapy so they can tell him how wrong he is and how right I am. (Again, not true.) I said I was just trying to find a way to improve our marriage...I didn't know what else to do b/c we don't seem to resolve things on our own. Then I said "but I guess it's not going to work" (exactly what he said at the beginning of this conversation.) Then HE said "so you're just going to give up?" I said no, but he was the one saying therapy wasn't going to work, so I don't know what else to do. Then my H said in a weak scared voice "I'm so scared...I don't want to get divorced." I said I don't either (admittedly not necessarily true...the jury is still out), that's why I'm trying to help us get along better through therapy. Then the conversation tapered off and he fell alseep. 

This morning, as per usual, he's back to his normal self and being reasonably nice/normal and talkative about work and stuff. Ugh...he can be SO exasperating.


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## Uptown

Waking up to life said:


> This morning, as per usual, he's back to his normal self and being reasonably nice/normal.


If he is a BPDer, the sad reality is that he ALSO was being "his normal self" during the therapy session and again last night when talking to you in bed. For BPDers, such unstable behavior is the norm. What was so sad -- even to me when just reading about it -- was his little boy comment: "I'm so scared." During moments like that -- as well as during his temper tantrums -- you must feel you are in the presence of a young child.


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## Waking up to life

Well, we've had 2 sessions now. This week we talked about how I have felt emotionally disconnected for a while, due to my being totally engulfed in his emotional needs at the expense of my own. He said he is very bothered by the fact that I'm not as affectionate as I used to be...it makes him feel very lonely. 

Last night, he asked me if when I said I felt we were lacking emotional connection, did that mean I don't love him? I said no, of course I love him, but I don't feel a strong bond or connection between us. We went into a very lengthy conversation which was so painful for both of us. He spoke again in a weak, sad, childlike voice and said that I am his world and I'm all he has and he is desperately afraid now of saying or doing anything that will upset me b/c he doesn't want me to leave. He said since I've brought out in therapy that he has been judgmental and upsetting towards me when I've tried to talk to him in the past, now he feels like every minute of the day he is petrified that he might be saying/doing something wrong. He said he has to calculate every possible scenario in his head before he says something because he's trying so hard to not say something wrong. 

I told him I appreciate his trying so hard, but he seems to be taking things so personally...I'm not the wicked witch of the west, I never yell or scream at him or give him the silent treatment, so his being terrified of saying the wrong thing to me is unwarranted. 

It was strange...the whole conversation was focused on his absolute 100% emotional reliance on me, and how he couldn't live without me, and he is so confused by therapy that now he doesn't know how to act, what to say, etc. because he's so terrified if he says the wrong thing I'll resent him and find more reasons to leave. 

He was so emotionally broken during this conversation, I think even a psychologist would've had a hard time sorting through all if it. And as the conversation was ending, I sat silently with tears streaming down my face. I have broken him by taking him to therapy, making him even more reliant on my every emotion, action, smile, touch, reassurance. He looked over and saw me crying, and said very sadly "see, I've made you sad now; I messed up again and I don't know how to make you happy; I'm sorry I make you so sad...I can't do anything right..." And that is the sad, sad state of our marriage right now. I am absolutely emotionally drained.


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## Anabel

Waking up to life said:


> Well, we've had 2 sessions now. This week we talked about how I have felt emotionally disconnected for a while, due to my being totally engulfed in his emotional needs at the expense of my own. He said he is very bothered by the fact that I'm not as affectionate as I used to be...it makes him feel very lonely.
> 
> Last night, he asked me if when I said I felt we were lacking emotional connection, did that mean I don't love him? I said no, of course I love him, but I don't feel a strong bond or connection between us. We went into a very lengthy conversation which was so painful for both of us. He spoke again in a weak, sad, childlike voice and said that I am his world and I'm all he has and he is desperately afraid now of saying or doing anything that will upset me b/c he doesn't want me to leave. He said since I've brought out in therapy that he has been judgmental and upsetting towards me when I've tried to talk to him in the past, now he feels like every minute of the day he is petrified that he might be saying/doing something wrong. He said he has to calculate every possible scenario in his head before he says something because he's trying so hard to not say something wrong.
> 
> I told him I appreciate his trying so hard, but he seems to be taking things so personally...I'm not the wicked witch of the west, I never yell or scream at him or give him the silent treatment, so his being terrified of saying the wrong thing to me is unwarranted.
> 
> It was strange...the whole conversation was focused on his absolute 100% emotional reliance on me, and how he couldn't live without me, and he is so confused by therapy that now he doesn't know how to act, what to say, etc. because he's so terrified if he says the wrong thing I'll resent him and find more reasons to leave.
> 
> He was so emotionally broken during this conversation, I think even a psychologist would've had a hard time sorting through all if it. And as the conversation was ending, I sat silently with tears streaming down my face. I have broken him by taking him to therapy, making him even more reliant on my every emotion, action, smile, touch, reassurance. He looked over and saw me crying, and said very sadly "see, I've made you sad now; I messed up again and I don't know how to make you happy; I'm sorry I make you so sad...I can't do anything right..." And that is the sad, sad state of our marriage right now. I am absolutely emotionally drained.


What I get from this is, it sounds like he is paying attention in counseling, and he's hearing some things that are difficult for him to accept. He's going to try various methods now to get you to tell him the therapist is full of it. He's going to act childish, whiny, exasperated... on and on. That's natural--his perception of himself is being turned upside down. 

My advice: Don't give up! You may be finally getting somewhere. Try not to take what he's doing personally. If he's having to pay more attention to what he says and does--good!! That's what he needs to learn how to do. It's not going to be easy for him. Let him complain, be a sympathetic ear if you can, but do not feel guilty for a minute. Also, be open during counseling to what you need to do to improve the marriage (not saying that you aren't) and work hard on it--this will show him he's not the only one being "attacked". 

I've been in his shoes somewhat. Even though I moaned about it and hated every minute, I also knew deep down I needed it. He may feel similarly.. Hang in there :smthumbup:


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## KathyBatesel

WUTL, remember that with things like this, it almost always will get worse before it gets better. It's like you've both been pushing against each other for so long (picture a football game when the offensive line and defensive line are going at each other). If the defense didn't charge forward, the offensive team would dominate the game. OTOH, if the defense is completely impenetrable, there's no chance to score. 

Your husband's assumption that it won't work is something I would speak up about. "If you know more than a marriage professional, why is our marriage still broken?" 

But I'd be patient at the same time. He doesn't want to get run over by your offensive strategy AND he can't see you as being on his team as you insist on counseling. Remind him that you want to be on the same team and that the game is a scrimmage, not a playoff. You're acting like you're on opposite teams, but you really aren't. He may be able to relate if he's a football fan, and if he isn't, maybe you can think of a similar analogy that he would understand.


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## Uptown

Waking, I agree with Kathy that -- in the unlikely event he stays in therapy -- it likely will get worse before getting better. As to the "getting better" part, it likely will take several years before you see a substantial change if he is a BPDer, as you suspect. His behavior in the first two therapy sessions is just more of the same "oh poor little me, I can't do anything right" you've been seeing for years. It is like the behavior we discussed back in December at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/consid...motionally-dependent-husband.html#post1315913.


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## jd08

Sorry to hear about your ongoing struggle. As you noted, you have practically been a caretaker to your husband for a number of years now and, as a result, he has assumed the role of a child both in his mind and in yours. It sounds like he is completely incapable right now of being independent and doing anything for himself to improve your marriage and quality of life. I know that has to make your ultimate decision even harder because leaving the marriage would almost be like leaving a child to take care of themselves.


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## Waking up to life

jd08 said:


> Sorry to hear about your ongoing struggle. As you noted, you have practically been a caretaker to your husband for a number of years now and, as a result, he has assumed the role of a child both in his mind and in yours. It sounds like he is completely incapable right now of being independent and doing anything for himself to improve your marriage and quality of life. I know that has to make your ultimate decision even harder because leaving the marriage would almost be like leaving a child to take care of themselves.


Exactly...this is like what I said in a different post: Leaving him would feel like dropping my child off at the orphanage because I didn't want him anymore. That's how cruel it makes me feel about thinking of leaving him. 

I am really, really trying to be patient and I do appreciate that my H is at least making an effort...but it's in a way that makes him even more emotionally dependent on me. Now he gauges every single action or word of his by my reaction, inaction, my facial expressions, my body language...if I say "would you like coffee?" he'll say "if you do, then I do". If I say I'm going to bed, he's right behind me; if I say I'm going to stay up a little later, so does he. If I don't laugh heartily at a joke, he'll ask if he said something wrong. He also does a weird thing hard to describe, but if we're, say, passing each other in the kitchen, he'll step way out of the way and pin himself against the cabinet to make a show that he's giving me plenty of room to pass. Stepping aside to let someone pass is fine, but when the space we're passing in is 8 feet wide, his exaggerated "let me get out of your way" movements are a bit obnoxious. He does the same thing to our son, and my son said last night "Dad's just acting weird...as if I was going to punch him in the face if he got too close or something!" 

It's all just draining, and as much as he's trying to show concern for me, he doesn't realize how much his behavior really is just taking us full circle where I feel like I have to be the strong one, the encouraging one, I should comfort him, soothe him, tell him everything's going to be ok, all the while I'm suffocating inside. 

I'm tempted to put off our next MC session for another week. The aftermath of dealing with the emotional trauma I'm causing him by taking him to MC is sucking the life out of me, and I don't know if I have it in me this week.


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## KathyBatesel

I hope you won't put off your session, and I hope you won't let him see that his silly behavior has ANY effect that works his way. He's doing that to punish and manipulate you.


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## Uptown

Waking up to life said:


> I feel like I should comfort him, soothe him, tell him everything's going to be ok.


That's just a feeling, Waking. Don't believe it. Because we excessive caregivers act on those feelings, we end up harming our spouses by enabling their immature behaviors. Instead of rushing in to sooth and comfort your H, it is important to allow him to learn how to do self soothing and be responsible for his own happiness.


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## Anabel

Waking up to life said:


> Exactly...this is like what I said in a different post: Leaving him would feel like dropping my child off at the orphanage because I didn't want him anymore. That's how cruel it makes me feel about thinking of leaving him.
> 
> I am really, really trying to be patient and I do appreciate that my H is at least making an effort...but it's in a way that makes him even more emotionally dependent on me. Now he gauges every single action or word of his by my reaction, inaction, my facial expressions, my body language...if I say "would you like coffee?" he'll say "if you do, then I do". If I say I'm going to bed, he's right behind me; if I say I'm going to stay up a little later, so does he. If I don't laugh heartily at a joke, he'll ask if he said something wrong. He also does a weird thing hard to describe, but if we're, say, passing each other in the kitchen, he'll step way out of the way and pin himself against the cabinet to make a show that he's giving me plenty of room to pass. Stepping aside to let someone pass is fine, but when the space we're passing in is 8 feet wide, his exaggerated "let me get out of your way" movements are a bit obnoxious. He does the same thing to our son, and my son said last night "Dad's just acting weird...as if I was going to punch him in the face if he got too close or something!"
> 
> It's all just draining, and as much as he's trying to show concern for me, he doesn't realize how much his behavior really is just taking us full circle where I feel like I have to be the strong one, the encouraging one, I should comfort him, soothe him, tell him everything's going to be ok, all the while I'm suffocating inside.
> 
> I'm tempted to put off our next MC session for another week. The aftermath of dealing with the emotional trauma I'm causing him by taking him to MC is sucking the life out of me, and I don't know if I have it in me this week.


He isn't trying to show concern for you. He's mocking your desire to be respected. If you really want to fix this, don't let him get away with that stuff. Ignore him or walk away. If he plays dumb and asks why you're upset when he's "just doing what he's been told" or something similar, stay calm and ignore it. Don't apologize for something that's not your fault. He knows he's being a jerk. You don't want to be his parent, so don't act like it's your responsibility to explain what he's doing wrong or to console him. He'll live.


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## Waking up to life

Uptown said:


> That's just a feeling, Waking. Don't believe it. Because we excessive caregivers act on those feelings, we end up harming our spouses by enabling their immature behaviors. Instead of rushing in to sooth and comfort your H, it is important to allow him to learn how to do self soothing and be responsible for his own happiness.


True...and during that conversation I realized exactly what you said above. And that is what triggered my silent stream of tears...I began to feel WAY in over my head with him. He has so many issues, particularly his fear of abandonment and his emotional dependency on me and to a lesser extent our son...I started thinking, what the hell can of worms have I opened up? I'm not qualified to go pyschoanalyzing my H (nor do I want to be). Why can't he just man up and work with me on this as an equal? I know why...he can't...but damn it I'm so tired of being the emotionally strong one. For once I'd like him to console ME, to tell ME everything is going to be ok, to be able to be happy with himself when I'm not strong enough to be his emotional kick-stand. 

These feelings, though, I can't say to him. It would spiral him down even further. He would tighten his grip on me, like a drowning person would practically drown their rescuer in a state of panic. I can never be the weak one, I can never be the one who needs rescued. I'm alone in this...I can only vent it to you awesome people on TAM and to my therapist at IC. So sorry for the whining today...I'm just having a hard time coping.


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## KathyBatesel

He can man up and work with you as an equal. But he isn't going to until he has NO other options. Right now, he thinks this behavior can get him what he's wanting... a return to the status quo.


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## tryingtobebetter

Are you familliar with Transactional Analysis?

Your husband is behaving like a child in order to push you into the role of parent.

You want a relationship with an adult because you want to be an adult.

If you have not read Games People Play and Scripts People Live you may find them helpful.

Good luck


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## pink_lady

KathyBatesel said:


> He can man up and work with you as an equal. But he isn't going to until he has NO other options. Right now, he thinks this behavior can get him what he's wanting... a return to the status quo.


Exactly what I was thinking. Most likely, it's not that he can't work with you, it's that he doesn't want to.


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## Mavash.

KathyBatesel said:


> He can man up and work with you as an equal. But he isn't going to until he has NO other options. Right now, he thinks this behavior can get him what he's wanting... a return to the status quo.


No doubt. He's made it clear he doesn't want to go to therapy and if he gets all teary and upset enough he thinks you'll stop making him go.


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## Waking up to life

KathyBatesel said:


> He can man up and work with you as an equal. But he isn't going to until he has NO other options. Right now, he thinks this behavior can get him what he's wanting... a return to the status quo.


I agree. And I have to keep telling myself that as painful and difficult as this is, I have to stay strong and not give into the temptation to return things to the status quo because it would temporarily relive this pain. I know that's what he wants...for me to stop therapy, to say never mind, this was all just silly, eveything is fine, sorry to have upset you...

What's sad too, is that I feel like I'm betraying him in a way...the therapist asked me in IC whether I wanted to try to save my marriage. All I could say is I don't know. As much as he says he loves me and can't live without me and I mean everything to him, I honestly don't feel the same about him. I love him (although not romantically), but he's NOT my everything, and I CAN live without him. And I feel like a monster for admitting that. 

I have a hard imagining that we will really ever get to a point of mutual romantic love, emotionally bonding, happy to be together, etc., because a lot of that hasn't been present for a long time, if ever. So it's less about "saving" this marriage as it is about starting a new kind of relationship with my H and having a new and better marriage from this point on. I just don't know if that's possible.


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## northernlights

Waking up, my H and I have also started therapy, and I feel very much like you do. Frankly, after all these years of being treated like crap, I'm not sure I will be able to move on even if he does make changes. Forgiveness is going to be SO HARD for me. But when I feel like that, I tell myself that if I'm going to ask H to make changes that are hard and push the limits of what he's capable of, I need to be willing to push myself to the limits too. I can't ask my H to do what I'm not willing to do.


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## Mavash.

Waking up to life said:


> As much as he says he loves me and can't live without me and I mean everything to him, I honestly don't feel the same about him. I love him (although not romantically), but he's NOT my everything, and I CAN live without him. And I feel like a monster for admitting that.


I think your husband is gassing you. He's not happy with you either he's just not in touch with that part of himself to admit it.

If he were truly happy with you don't you think he'd act like it? Would he have gained 100 pounds? Wouldn't he have bought you a house? Wouldn't he have been nicer? He clings to you out of fear not out of love or because he's so happy with you. 

Most boys treat their mothers better than your husband has treated you. You aren't his everything....not even close.


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## KathyBatesel

I agree with Mavash and wonder what would happen if you went on an extended vacation - say, six months apart - what would happen to his "depression."


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## Waking up to life

Mavash, you are correct about the fear thing. He told me a few weeks ago that he lives in fear every day that I'll leave him...his worst nightmare is that I'll leave him and he'll be alone, and he's desperately afraid of being alone.

Note that nowhere in there did he say he doesn't want me to leave because he loves me...he doesn't want me to leave because he's terrified of being alone. I picked up on that right away, but I didn't call him on it. I believe he does love me, but only in the sense that I provide emotional security, companionship, stability, etc for him. 

Since we started therapy, has said several times that all he wants is for me to be happy. And he is being sincere, because as I told him during MC, I feel like happy is the only emotion he can handle from me. I'm never allowed to be sad or upset or angry, because being anything other than happy around him puts an emotional burden on him he can't handle. So when he says all he wants is for me to be happy, to me it seems like it's for selfish reasons.


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## Mavash.

The only reason I said that was to stop you from beating yourself up over not thinking he was your everything like he claims you are to him. You're feeling guilty for no reason.

He's not happy he just has a fear of abandonment. And if you show any negative emotion he thinks the next step is being left hence why he wants you to be happy all the time. Sorry but that's not realistic.


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## Mavash.

KathyBatesel said:


> I agree with Mavash and wonder what would happen if you went on an extended vacation - say, six months apart - what would happen to his "depression."


This would be the BEST thing that could ever happen for the both of them. He'd be forced to face his fear of abandonment and of being alone and she'd have to face her fear of guilt over caring for herself for a change.

3-6 months would do it.


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## Waking up to life

KathyBatesel said:


> I agree with Mavash and wonder what would happen if you went on an extended vacation - say, six months apart - what would happen to his "depression."


I really think a trial separation would be good for both of us. For him, it would be good to show him that he can, in fact, live without me, learn to soothe and entertain himself, give him a break from the constant worry of every action or word being the last straw that makes me want to leave him. 

For me, it would be good to detach myself from the codependent bahviors and reactions I'm so accustomed to. To make everyday decisions without worrying about what he would think, what he would want, would he agree with it. To focus on myself as my own person and understand what I truly want/need from a relationship. 

My therapist suggested the idea to me during IC a while back. But...again, this would have to be something I would have to request against my H's will. Never in a million years would he think this is a good idea and go along with it willingly. It would tear him apart as badly as just asking for a divorce. I think I will bring it up to my therapist again in IC.


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## Waking up to life

Mavash. said:


> This would be the BEST thing that could ever happen for the both of them. He'd be forced to face his fear of abandonment and of being alone and she'd have to face her fear of guilt over caring for herself for a change.
> 
> 3-6 months would do it.


Agreed. But I honestly don't know how that works in practicality. I'd have to rent an apartment, buy furniture, cookware, daily living necessities, etc. Then assuming I move back home, have to get rid of all the duplicated stuff. I'd have to change my address, then change it back again. I don't know how to start a new life but just temporarily. There is no one I can think of that I'd feel comfortable moving in with for 6 months. And then what about our 15 year old son? Do we give him the choice of who he wants to live with?


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## northernlights

H and I are lucky ("lucky," ha) in that due to my visa screw-up, I have to move back to the US and he won't be able to follow for at least a month. We're going to make that at least 3 months, so we can have a separation that's long enough to accomplish something. The kids won't have to know what's really happening--no one will. It's really ideal. 

I wonder if you or he could find a good excuse to get some time apart. I can't remember if your husband works? Are there any work-related transfers you could get? If he's unemployed, maybe he can get a job somewhere far away for a few months? Maybe you can find a property caretaking position for a few months that will get you a place to live for free in exchange for some plant and animal care? Just brainstorming...


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## Waking up to life

northernlights said:


> H and I are lucky ("lucky," ha) in that due to my visa screw-up, I have to move back to the US and he won't be able to follow for at least a month. We're going to make that at least 3 months, so we can have a separation that's long enough to accomplish something. The kids won't have to know what's really happening--no one will. It's really ideal.
> 
> I wonder if you or he could find a good excuse to get some time apart. I can't remember if your husband works? Are there any work-related transfers you could get? If he's unemployed, maybe he can get a job somewhere far away for a few months? Maybe you can find a property caretaking position for a few months that will get you a place to live for free in exchange for some plant and animal care? Just brainstorming...


My H and I both work full time and are both pretty established at our current jobs. Plus my son is in high school, so I would want to stay within the school district so that if he's with me, he can either take the bus or I could drive him. 

If a separation were to occur, I see it as me being the one to move out, not him. This is because I'd be the one wanting it, so I should be the one willing to move. Just me being away would be plenty for him to handle...it would be a better trial for him to continue living in our home so he could concentrate on himself.


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## Anabel

Mavash. said:


> This would be the BEST thing that could ever happen for the both of them. He'd be forced to face his fear of abandonment and of being alone and she'd have to face her fear of guilt over caring for herself for a change.
> 
> 3-6 months would do it.


My hunch is more like 5-10 years. 

It may not be that he doesn't love you. If he doesn't have the experience of being responsible for himself, he doesn't realize how much weight you have on your shoulders. His safety net needs to be gone.

If you stay and continue to go to counseling, I'd suggest calling him on his BS and letting him know--loud and clear--it needs to be an equal partnership if he wants to stay married. Meanwhile have a plan of how to improve things your end and give it all your efforts. After several months if it doesn't seem to be making a difference, divorce is probably the only option if you want to be happy.


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## KathyBatesel

He's the kind of guy I call a psychic vampire. They just suck the energy right out of you! 

I went through something similar in my 2nd marriage. He'd betrayed me already, and I was planning to leave when the kids got done with high school. As that time came closer, we had a number of discussions related to it. 

He and I were actually good friends who got along well, but I couldn't forgive what he'd done. I still questioned myself over it in many ways, though, and I came to notice the same pattern. He didn't want me to leave, but whenever he said so, his reasons were never about anything to do with me. "The family should stay intact for the children." "I don't want to be alone." "I like being married." 

When I did finally tell him that I suspected any warm body could fill my position in his life, he admitted that it was true. It relieved a lot of my guilt and doubt.




Waking up to life said:


> Mavash, you are correct about the fear thing. He told me a few weeks ago that he lives in fear every day that I'll leave him...his worst nightmare is that I'll leave him and he'll be alone, and he's desperately afraid of being alone.
> 
> Note that nowhere in there did he say he doesn't want me to leave because he loves me...he doesn't want me to leave because he's terrified of being alone. I picked up on that right away, but I didn't call him on it. I believe he does love me, but only in the sense that I provide emotional security, companionship, stability, etc for him.
> 
> Since we started therapy, has said several times that all he wants is for me to be happy. And he is being sincere, because as I told him during MC, I feel like happy is the only emotion he can handle from me. I'm never allowed to be sad or upset or angry, because being anything other than happy around him puts an emotional burden on him he can't handle. So when he says all he wants is for me to be happy, to me it seems like it's for selfish reasons.


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## Waking up to life

KathyBatesel said:


> When I did finally tell him that I suspected any warm body could fill my position in his life, he admitted that it was true. It relieved a lot of my guilt and doubt.


This may be true in my H's case, but he wouldn't be able to see that far ahead to admit that. He is so insecure and has such low self esteem, I'm sure he thinks that there's no way in the world he could ever find someone else to be with him. His insecurity would make it very, very difficult for him to even fathom the idea of wanting anyone else but me. I'm comfortable, I'm a known entity, I provide what he needs. He thinks he wants me and loves me, but really he wants what I provide for him and loves me as a child loves his security blanket.


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## Anabel

Waking up to life said:


> This may be true in my H's case, but he wouldn't be able to see that far ahead to admit that. He is so insecure and has such low self esteem, I'm sure he thinks that there's no way in the world he could ever find someone else to be with him. His insecurity would make it very, very difficult for him to even fathom the idea of wanting anyone else but me. I'm comfortable, I'm a known entity, I provide what he needs. He thinks he wants me and loves me, but really he wants what I provide for him and loves me as a child loves his security blanket.


I don't know. Of course we could debate what love really is, or whether it exists. 
If guilt is keeping you around he's liable to embellish and exaggerate his vulnerability.


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## Mavash.

Waking up to life said:


> He thinks he wants me and loves me, but really he wants what I provide for him and loves me as a child loves his security blanket.


Not buying it. Again all 3 of my children have had security blankets that they treasured, loved and respected. Does your husband love you? Really?

I picture you more as the enabler than a security blanket. And that ain't love.


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## Waking up to life

Mavash. said:


> Not buying it. Again all 3 of my children have had security blankets that they treasured, loved and respected. Does your husband love you? Really?
> 
> I picture you more as the enabler than a security blanket. And that ain't love.


I am an enabler. I never realized it until a month or two ago. I have read Codependent No More and so much of it hit home as far as my reactions and behavior toward my H. This is why I think separation would be so helpful to help both of us disengage our mutually destructive behavior.


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## Waking up to life

Well, it's been a few weeks since our 2nd therapy session. The counselor was out of the office for a week, then we got busy figuring out our schedule since our son just started track practice. So...Wednesday he acted all icy cold, avoiding me by going to bed early, then when I came to bed he got up and went out to sleep on the couch. Yesterday morning I asked him if he was mad at me. He said "No, I'm just existing." I asked what he meant. He shrugged and asked if I ever planned on going back to MC. I said yes and what did he think of that? He said, and I quote, "Well, I don't think it's a good idea. It's expensive, and the whole point of it seems to be for you to drag me in there so you can make me feel like crap. If you want to sit around and make me feel like crap, we can do that at home for free." I said that was never my intention, but since we both needed to leave for work, could we talk more about it tonight? He said "yeah, it would be nice if you'd actually talk to me" (said with a fair amount of snottiness). 

So...last night I asked to talk to him. I started by saying he just seems either mad at me, disappointed in me, or let down by me lately. He didn't deny any of that. So I start giving examples...all seem minor when singled out, but put together give the overall impression that he's disgusted with me. He went ballistic, saying that I have NO RIGHT to EVER bring up anything that happened more than one week ago, because what's in the past is in the past for him, and it's not fair to be upset about things and "hold grudges" like that. I said I was just trying to give examples. He said I have a major problem with holding grudges against him for every little thing. He said I am SO hypersensitive to things that when he's just having a bad day, I can't separate that and let it go. I said, if it was just once in a while I could see that...he didn't let me finish my sentence. Again went ballistic, saying that he doesn't act any different than any other person in the world, everyone has bad days, and if I can't see the difference, there's something wrong with me. Then he said that I seriously just need to "knock it off" and get over myself. 

He listed all the good things about himself, which I agreed on: he works at a steady job and is good at what he does, he doesn't drink, he's law abiding, he's home every night, he doesn't hang out with friends at a bar leaving me at home, he's never been to a strip club, he tries to help with household chores, etc. He said there is NO MAN in the world I could find who would be better in these regards. He feels like he has to "do everything" around here because if he doesn't oversee it, it won't get done. I said that 1) I am a fully capable and intelligent person, and I DO contribute as much to the running of our household, and 2) he micromanages things to the point that I don't even get a chance to handle it on my own before he's already assumed I'm going to fail and therefore he has to worry about it for me. I tried to explain that this hurts me and makes me feel devalued. He literally laughed and told me to "knock it off". I said that I don't feel like I make him happy. He said, "I don't know how you could, acting the way you do." 

This kind of nonsensical conversation went on for about 3 hours. In the end, we both said that we don't feel like we got anywhere with that discussion. We talked about therapy again...he again stated that therapy is a bunch of pop psychology "let's talk about _feelings_, how do you _feel_ about that" kind of crap. Basically, he wants a counseling session to be more like a trial in court. He wants the counselor to judge any disagreement and say which one of us is right. I said that's not possible, because many things are a gray area and come down to choices and compromise, and that's what we need to be able to figure out on our own...how to discuss things and come to some sort of an agreement or compromise. I said if he thinks he can find a better counselor, he's welcome to do so, but I'm not going to be the one to do it this time. 

A whole lot more was discussed, but the gist of it is, it was incredibly frustrating because he insisted that I was NOT allowed to bring up issues from the past (meaning more than one week ago). He is clearly not happy with me, and any unhappiness I have in him is due to my faulty thinking and "grudge holding". It was really late, so I said I think we should talk more tomorrow. 

I have an IC session today, thank god. Last night's conversation turned me on my head...am I really that shallow? Am I really so intent on holding grudges that I can't see the good in him? Do I contribute so little to the functioning of this household? I really don't think these things are true, but he's messing with my head. I don't see this marriage as being salvageable. Why do I keep trying so hard?


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## Mavash.

He's blameshifting and wants to sweep issues under the rug. A total mind eff to make you doubt yourself.

A healthy person would discuss issues to resolution not put limits on it aka no discussing things that happened prior to a week ago. If I want to discuss something that bothers me about my husband from a year ago he'd do it. We'd have a pleasant conversation without a tone or without either of us going 'ballistic".


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## A Bit Much

You can't win with this guy. You could walk the line exactly how he asked you to and he'd find fault. 

If you bring stuff up when it happens, you're attacking him. If you bring it up a week later, you're holding grudges. It's like Alice in Wonderland time trying to talk to him about the inconsistencies. You're Alice and he's the Mad Hatter.


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## bailingout

Waking up to life said:


> So...last night I asked to talk to him. I started by saying he just seems either mad at me, disappointed in me, or let down by me lately. He didn't deny any of that. So I start giving examples...all seem minor when singled out, but put together give the overall impression that he's disgusted with me. He went ballistic, saying that I have NO RIGHT to EVER bring up anything that happened more than one week ago, because what's in the past is in the past for him, and it's not fair to be upset about things and "hold grudges" like that. I said I was just trying to give examples. He said I have a major problem with holding grudges against him for every little thing. He said I am SO hypersensitive to things that when he's just having a bad day, I can't separate that and let it go. I said, if it was just once in a while I could see that...he didn't let me finish my sentence. Again went ballistic, saying that he doesn't act any different than any other person in the world, everyone has bad days, and if I can't see the difference, there's something wrong with me. Then he said that I seriously just need to "knock it off" and get over myself.


This seems to be blameshifting or projecting at it's finest. 



Waking up to life said:


> He listed all the good things about himself, which I agreed on: he works at a steady job and is good at what he does, he doesn't drink, he's law abiding, he's home every night, he doesn't hang out with friends at a bar leaving me at home, he's never been to a strip club, he tries to help with household chores, etc. He said there is NO MAN in the world I could find who would be better in these regards. He feels like he has to "do everything" around here because if he doesn't oversee it, it won't get done. I said that 1) I am a fully capable and intelligent person, and I DO contribute as much to the running of our household, and 2) he micromanages things to the point that I don't even get a chance to handle it on my own before he's already assumed I'm going to fail and therefore he has to worry about it for me. I tried to explain that this hurts me and makes me feel devalued. He literally laughed and told me to "knock it off". I said that I don't feel like I make him happy. He said, "I don't know how you could, acting the way you do.


Mayby it's just me but it seems he switches from being the little 5 yr old you've mentioned before to an attitude that HE is YOUR parent. It's like a double edge sword, on one hand he wants recognition for acting as an adult/parent (providing, helping around the house etc) and on the other hand expects to be viewed as the authority in the house and everything should be done the way HE wants it done, but thinks he is so superior, no one else is capable of doing it. It's as if no one is allowed to be an individual. 



Waking up to life said:


> Basically, he wants a counseling session to be more like a trial in court. He wants the counselor to judge any disagreement and say which one of us is right.


Of course he wants someone to tell you who is right and who is wrong because he doesn't understand there really isn't a right or wrong in most things. What someone believes to be right, someone else believes to be wrong. That comes from our core beliefs and what we were taught. It would seem his immaturity and unhealthy emotional state prevent him from 1) being able to respect your opinion 2) accepting/respecting the fact that your opinion is different from his & 3) the ability to find a compromise or solution somewhere in the middle. 

I think I'm married to his brother cuz this is all played out daily around here.


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## sunvalley

Waking up to life said:


> So I start giving examples...all seem minor when singled out, but put together give the overall impression that he's disgusted with me. He went ballistic, saying that I have NO RIGHT to EVER bring up anything that happened more than one week ago, because what's in the past is in the past for him, and it's not fair to be upset about things and "hold grudges" like that. I said I was just trying to give examples. He said I have a major problem with holding grudges against him for every little thing. He said I am SO hypersensitive to things that when he's just having a bad day, I can't separate that and let it go. I said, if it was just once in a while I could see that...he didn't let me finish my sentence. Again went ballistic, saying that he doesn't act any different than any other person in the world, everyone has bad days, and if I can't see the difference, there's something wrong with me. Then he said that I seriously just need to "knock it off" and get over myself.


Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. It's all YOUR fault that he's not acting like an adult and partner.



Waking up to life said:


> He listed all the good things about himself, which I agreed on: he works at a steady job and is good at what he does, he doesn't drink, he's law abiding, he's home every night, he doesn't hang out with friends at a bar leaving me at home, he's never been to a strip club, he tries to help with household chores, etc. He said there is NO MAN in the world I could find who would be better in these regards. He feels like he has to "do everything" around here because if he doesn't oversee it, it won't get done.


:rofl::rofl::rofl: Waking Up, I really hope you do not believe him when he says you can't find someone else who's better in these regards. I can think of four or five men, off the top of my head, who have similar good traits AND are adult partners in their marriages. Besides, all this is what adults are *supposed* to do. Does he want a round of applause? Give me a break.



Waking up to life said:


> I said that 1) I am a fully capable and intelligent person, and I DO contribute as much to the running of our household, and 2) he micromanages things to the point that I don't even get a chance to handle it on my own before he's already assumed I'm going to fail and therefore he has to worry about it for me. I tried to explain that this hurts me and makes me feel devalued. He literally laughed and told me to "knock it off". I said that I don't feel like I make him happy. He said, "I don't know how you could, acting the way you do."


I must say I deeply admire you, Waking Up. If a partner had laughed and told me to knock it off while having a similar conversation, that partner would be out of my life and home so fast his head would spin.



Waking up to life said:


> He is clearly not happy with me, and any unhappiness I have in him is due to my faulty thinking and "grudge holding". It was really late, so I said I think we should talk more tomorrow. ... am I really that shallow? Am I really so intent on holding grudges that I can't see the good in him? Do I contribute so little to the functioning of this household? I really don't think these things are true, but he's messing with my head. I don't see this marriage as being salvageable. Why do I keep trying so hard?


He is indeed messing with your head. He's obviously not stable, and is trying to get things back to the status quo (i.e. YOU are the stable, emotionally-supportive person who does it all, while he's free to be a child mentally and emotionally).

I normally don't advocate divorce, Waking Up, but I think you are way overdue for one. This can't go on. You cannot fix him, and he obviously doesn't care to work on either himself or his marriage. Hence the poutiness, threats, dismissive attitude and hurtful words, and mockery. Marriage is a *partnership*. Unless he realizes he has an issue and wants to work on it, this will not get better.

Waking Up, I'm sorry to be so blunt. But this kind of behavior really makes me angry. You have *nothing* to feel guilty about; you are working on yourself, to the betterment of yourself and your family, and you're making the effort. He is not. And that is WRONG.


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## tryingtobebetter

Harking back to my reference to Transactional Analysis, this sounds like a classic flip from behaving like a child to trying to adopt the parent role, whereas you want an adult -to- adult relationship. Perhaps there is hope, as at least it is change.

I would be inclined to ask him to read Games People Play and Scripts People Live. He might see himself in them.


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## bailingout

tryingtobebetter said:


> Harking back to my reference to Transactional Analysis, this sounds like a classic flip from behaving like a child to trying to adopt the parent role, whereas you want an adult -to- adult relationship. Perhaps there is hope, as at least it is change.
> 
> I would be inclined to ask him to read Games People Play and Scripts People Live. He might see himself in them.


When you say "flip from behaving like a child to trying to adopt the parent roll" are you referring to him being HER parent as that is how I see it. Can you elaborate on how you feel that could suggest hope? She wants an adult to adult relationship, not to parent him and not to be parented BY him. 


JMO My interest is that I am dealing with similar circumstances and trying to figure it out also.


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## Waking up to life

Thanks everyone for your support. It is truly appreciated. I went to IC yesterday. After about 5 min of me trying to explain to counselor about our wretched conversation, he stopped me and said, "I want you to stop trying to make sense of that conversation, because you can't. You'll drive yourself insane trying. You're attempting to reason with the unreasonable." It was such a weight off of my shoulders to be told that. 

We talked a lot about how apparently my H made strict rules about how we were allowed to communicate (yet he broke those rules himself when convenient), therefore he wasn't trying to "discuss" anything. He repeatedly refused to let me talk freely without belittling me, judging, or flat out telling me to "knock it off". What it all boils down to is: prior to my "waking up" and realizing I was existing in a codependent, emotionally one-sided marriage, my H was happy with the status quo. When I started to realize how much I was neglecting my own needs for his sake, and how he refuses to understand what my needs are, things started to change. My H didn't like my efforts to level the table, no matter how diplomatically I tried. He was happy with the way things were, and he is attempting to return things back to that way. 

My H thinks he is doing everything he can to make me happy. He keeps saying "I don't know what more you can want! What do you want from me??" But if I try to answer him, he berates me, tells me I'm wrong, tells me I'm unrealistic, or that it's my fault. Again, trying to reason with the unreasonable. 

My therapist said that I have done everything I can do to try to save this marriage, but unless I want to go back to "the old ways" where my H was content to neglect my needs and I was a willing participant, there is nothing else I can do. The only "work" my H will do in this is to fight me to return things to the status quo. The therapist even said he is concerned for my mental well being if I keep trying this hard for much longer. It's just not healthy to keep banging my head against the wall for so long. 

So...I'm ready to throw in the towel. I hate it because I'm not a "quitter" and I've invested every bit of strength I can muster to try to make this work. But nothing has changed. Nothing will change. I need to move on. The therapist did suggest that I make a divorce plan before I actually tell him I'm divorcing. He suggested seeing an attorney and make plans for where I will live, because when I do tell him, I have no idea what he will do. If he goes ballistic and throws me out of the house, I need to have a plan. Or he might cut off access to our bank accounts, etc, so I need to figure this stuff out with an attorney. 

When we were having our horrible "discussion" I told my H that if I'm not allowed to hold grudges AND he knows when he has been hurtful to me, then he could at least come back to me and apologize for his behavior. He nodded like that made sense. Yesterday and today, as expected, my H acts like the conversation never happened. He's acting all nice and agreeable. Came up and hugged me this morning all lovey dovey. No apology, no acknowledgment that he might have possibly hurt me or upset me. Nothing. As is ALWAYS the case, when he's over his rant, tantrum, whatever, he carries on like it never happened and I'm expected to do the same. This time, I'm not saying anything. I'm done. I just need some time to work on my plans to GTFO.


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## tryingtobebetter

bailingout said:


> When you say "flip from behaving like a child to trying to adopt the parent roll" are you referring to him being HER parent as that is how I see it. Can you elaborate on how you feel that could suggest hope? She wants an adult to adult relationship, not to parent him and not to be parented BY him.
> 
> 
> JMO My interest is that I am dealing with similar circumstances and trying to figure it out also.


Bailingout

I made this suggestion because earlier in the thread the OP's husband was clearly behaving like a child but now seemed to be trying to behave like a parent towards her. The thinking behind TA is that most of the time we need a partner who gives us an adult-to-adult relationship, does not try to work us into being their parent or their child (there are exceptions - it is nice to have a partner who is playful in bed). The basic idea of TA is that we carry within us three different basic ways of behaving: like a child, like an adult or like a parent. (You can divide the child up into good child and naughty child, the parent into loving and unloving). All are appropriate at different moments though childish behaviour is something we should mostly give up when we reach adulthood (though we are all allowed a bit of 'playtime'). The problems TA identifies with relationships is when people are in the wrong role for what other people need/want from them. In adult relationships, we mostly want adult behaviour from our spouses (though when I am ill in bed I quite like it if my wife is motherly for a while). 

The reason I thought that the change gave some reason for hope was that at least it showed the OP's husband could change role even if it was from child to parent rather than the change to adult which is what she needs. If he was stuck permanently in the child behaviour it would be yet more concerning.

Nothing, though, I think will improve for the OP unless her husband can be persuaded to take a good hard look at himself and see what changes he needs to affect. Hence the reading I suggested, though others may have better ideas still.

I would add that the OP probably needs to affirm her husband by recognising his good points explicitly to him, reminding him that he is the man she chose to marry so of course she sees much that is good in him. He sounds insecure so probably needs that reassurance as well as some directions how to change to be a more satisfactory husband. (Edit: having seen the OP's latest I might add that I realise perhaps it is too late unless she can shock him into change with an ultimatum)

My wife teaches special needs kids, who generally have emotional problems, and one of her mottoes is 'flatter then batter', by which she means tell people what they are good at first to make them feel appreciated, before pointing out where they could make improvements. 

I hope this is some help in fleshing out what I was saying above.

Best wishes


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## A Bit Much

> After about 5 min of me trying to explain to counselor about our wretched conversation, he stopped me and said, "I want you to stop trying to make sense of that conversation, because you can't. You'll drive yourself insane trying. You're attempting to reason with the unreasonable."


Mad Hatter.

Your counselor is 100% right. I'm glad hearing it from him helped it make sense to you. It's very unhealthy to keep this up. 

You're doing great Waking. Keep it up!!! You definitely have support here and your counselor will keep you on track. :smthumbup:


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## bailingout

Waking up to life said:


> Thanks everyone for your support. It is truly appreciated. I went to IC yesterday. After about 5 min of me trying to explain to counselor about our wretched conversation, he stopped me and said, "I want you to stop trying to make sense of that conversation, because you can't. You'll drive yourself insane trying. You're attempting to reason with the unreasonable." It was such a weight off of my shoulders to be told that.


Glad to hear some of that weight is lifted.  My weight lifting phrase was "Irrational people cannot be rational." 



Good luck and we are here for you!!!

***Tryingtobebetter--Thank you for clarifying. I will be reading up on TA asap.


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## Faithful Wife

Waking...I don't have anything to share, but I just know you are at a pivotal moment in your life. Offering support through cyberspace is all we can do but....maybe it helps. People do listen and understand.


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## sunvalley

Waking up to life said:


> Thanks everyone for your support. It is truly appreciated. I went to IC yesterday. After about 5 min of me trying to explain to counselor about our wretched conversation, he stopped me and said, "I want you to stop trying to make sense of that conversation, because you can't. You'll drive yourself insane trying. You're attempting to reason with the unreasonable." It was such a weight off of my shoulders to be told that. ... As is ALWAYS the case, when he's over his rant, tantrum, whatever, he carries on like it never happened and I'm expected to do the same. This time, I'm not saying anything. I'm done. I just need some time to work on my plans to GTFO.


:smthumbup:
Like I said, Waking, I don't normally advocate divorce .... but in this instance, I do. And I am glad to hear you're making your leave plans. Keep up the good work in counseling (it will help future relationships) — and once you are free of this toxic baggage, the future will seem a *lot* brighter.

:toast:


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## Waking up to life

So...as I said, I went to IC Friday. I was really upset about our conversation Thursday night. I was in a very bad state in my mind and I needed help. I paid with our joint checking account...I'm tired of trying to hide the fact that I need this help (previously I had paid cash that I had stashed away so my H wouldn't know, because he doesn't like the idea of me going to IC). Anyway, last night he saw the payment for Friday's session on our checking account and asked if I went to see the counselor. I said yes, I wanted to talk about some of the things that he had said about me the night before. He got pissed and demanded to know everything I talked about. He said he didn't appreciate being "blind sighted" like that...I should've called him and asked first. He sees this as me trying to "win" and prove how right I am and how wrong he is. 

Well, I didn't tell him everything we talked about. I gave him a few snippets of our discussion, but the majority I kept secret. I hate having to do that, but I just couldn't tell him everything. I told him I feel like we have a terrible breakdown in communication which leads to us misunderstanding each others' feelings and intentions. He agreed that I obviously mistake his "having a bad day once in a while" for being angry at me, and that I hold everything against him. I said that because of countless instances in the past when I was basically ordered to stop being angry, not to be mad at him, etc, I have learned a bad habit of internalizing my feelings. He goes ballistic again, saying that I just can't stop holding everything against him, that unless he is absolutely perfect, I will latch on to everything negative about him to use against him so he can never win. Basically he thinks all our problems are being fabricated in my head, and that if I would just choose to try to see the good and stop "imagining" all these negative things about him, things would be ok. But he says I am choosing to not be happy in this marriage.

I asked him if he could snap his fingers and make our marriage perfect, what would he have me do or change? He said he doesn't know how to answer that, because he's not the one trying to fix something that he didn't see as broken before. I gave him ample opportunity to lay things out on the line as far as his gripes with me, but he just said he wishes I'd stop looking for all the negatives and CHOOSE to be happy. 

This would have been a perfect time for him to ask me what things I would want to see him change or work on...to show that he is truly interested in understanding what I see as a problem or what would make things better from my perspective. But he didn't ask. I almost pointed that out to him, but I knew it wouldn't do any good. He isn't interested in understanding me...he thinks he already does, and his understanding is just that I am choosing to not be happy.


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## Uptown

Waking up to life said:


> He doesn't like the idea of me going to IC.


Waking, if he has strong BPD traits as you suspect, this hard attitude against an IC is to be expected. A BPDer is so fearful of abandonment that he will try to control nearly every aspect of your life. And, to make that control more effective, he will try to isolate you away from all friends and family who might support you. You say your H has already done that. It therefore follows that the last thing he wants is for you to be supported by an IC. To him, losing control over you means he is at great risk of your abandoning him.


> He just said he wishes I'd stop looking for all the negatives and CHOOSE to be happy.


This is amazing advice from a man who has struggled for years with depression. But, if he has strong BPD traits, it is not unexpected. BPDers have one set of rules for themselves and another set for everybody else -- and both sets of rules will change periodically to suit whatever mood they happen to be in at the moment. That's the way adults behave when they are stuck with the emotional development of a four year old. And, of course, all four year olds behave that way too.


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## Waking up to life

He doesn't think he's depressed. I have told him numerous times that I think he is chronically depressed and I point out examples of why I think so (untreated diagnosed Bipolar 2, weight gain, lack of socialization, constant feeling of being overwhelmed, chronic pain, fatigue). He again says he just thinks I'm looking for the bad things in him and that's all I choose to see. He says all he needs in life to be happy is to spend time with me and our son. But since I'm so "cold and distant" with him anymore, I've taken away his source of happiness. So if I think he's depressed or unhappy, it's because I'm choosing not to be happy. 

Is anyone else's head spinning? Mine is...:scratchhead:


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## Faithful Wife

Waking said: "Well, I didn't tell him everything we talked about. I gave him a few snippets of our discussion, but the majority I kept secret. I hate having to do that, but I just couldn't tell him everything."

Being that you are very close to asking him for a divorce, why NOT just go ahead and tell him everything? Let the chips fall. What harm could happen, that isn't already present and just unspoken?

I think when we "protect" each other from the truth, we hurt them and ourselves. Using radical honesty (different from brutal honesty), you could just tell him everything.

You could tell him, not expecting him to suddenly stand up and "hear" you, but instead, hoping that after it sinks in for a few days, he might just realize you have one foot out the door.

In fact, I think you should go ahead and tell him you do have one foot out the door. Why hide anything at this point? If he does nothing to improve this marriage, you are going to end up leaving anyway. Don't wait until you actually do walk out the door to let him know that is where you are headed. 

Just my two cents.


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## Waking up to life

I would have, except that most of what we talked about was me realizing that we've hit a brick wall and I have done all I can do, but since he refuses to see that there is a problem and puts up stops all along the way of me trying to work this out, I feel it's best for me to go. 

My therapist advised me to really work on an exit plan before I drop that bomb on him. That's because his reactions to things are so unpredictable...he could go ballistic and make my life hell but if I don't have a place to go yet, I'd be stuck. He could start taking money out of our joint bank accounts so I can't have access to it, etc. Maybe he wouldn't do anything like that, but I'm better off to have some sort of a plan before I tell him. I know he senses that I have one foot out the door because of something he said last night. He just either feels powerless to do anything about it or (more likely) he would prefer to bury his head in the sand and hope he's wrong. Either way, he's not trying to understand me or convince me or 'win me back'. His attitude is that I just need to get my head out of my ass and see that I'm imagining or creating my unhappiness in our marriage.


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## A Bit Much

> His attitude is that I just need to get my head out of my ass and see that I'm imagining or creating my unhappiness in our marriage.


All I see from his comments and assertions about you are projection. Also, you are trying to get to a healthy place and that's threatening to him because 1, it shows you are making some efforts to change, and 2 it highlights the fact that he is NOT.

Things are NOT okay as they are. No matter how many times he tries to convince you, the two of you cannot continue with the status quo. He refuses to admit it, but he's as unhappy as you are. It's easier to blame you for the state of your marriage... as if he's the perfect partner for you that you're unwilling to see. Until he acknowledges his own participation in the breakdown of this marriage you will continue to hear that you are the reason for it not working. 

Introspection has to happen on his part, and IMO he's so far gone, he's not going to do the work. It's all going to fall on you. You have to be okay with doing all the heavy lifting here, and being called the bad guy.


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## Waking up to life

Update: In short, nothing has changed. And I mean nothing in the sense that essentially we are back to where we were last fall before I started IC. I feel like what has happened is that somehow my H has managed to get me to shut up about my unhappiness and we're carrying on as we were before...me pretending everything is OK when it's not...him pretending that everything we went through in the past few months never happened. The only difference is that he is trying to do things like cooking dinner a lot because he gets home before I do, talking about vacation and buying a home, trying to be less grumpy.

While I do appreciate his efforts, and yes he is more pleasant to be around in general, I still feel like we really haven't connected on any deeper level emotionally. We communicate superficially, about our work, about our son, about upcoming plans, but there is no talk about anything deeper than that. I feel like what he's managed to do somehow is to return everything to the status quo because that's what he's comfortable with. And I've somehow let him do that, and that upsets me, because I am still very seriously contemplating divorce. 

Here's where I'm stuck: because I've allowed him to return everything to his staus quo for the last few weeks, for me to now talk about my feelings again or god forbid divorce, it's like I'm back to square one, starting all over having to rip the wound open again when he thinks everything is fine. EXACTLY where I was last fall...not feeling like I can talk to him, him acting like there are no problems, him most likely being shocked to find out that I'm (still) not happy with our marriage. 

Why for god's sake am I back to this point?? All the IC, 2 MC sessions, reading, thinking, agonizing, posting on TAM...I am definitely more self aware than I have ever been in my life. But I'm no better at communicating with my H than I was back then. I guess I'm going to have to proceed with divorce plans and it will come as a complete shock to him because he thinks everything is ok. In a way I resent having to do all the emotional work here, but as he said, I've brought it all upon myself because I'm choosing not to be happy with him. I will be the bad guy...there's no way around that. I just have to be ready to handle that.


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## pink_lady

Your H has no intention of putting EFFORT into the marriage, he's demonstrated that very clearly. He does not want to change, so of course he's reverting back to the comfy old status quo and hoping things will settle down.

He does not care if you are happy with your life and the marriage or not. He just does not have the emotional maturity/depth/strength to do the necessary work.

You're feeling guilty because you didn't want to be a 'walk-away wife', but as we can see, he is not giving you a choice. 

This is pretty much how my H has been acting the last few days- even though HE KNOWS I am moving out! (I asked him one last time if he would go to counseling and told him I'm signing a lease on Monday, he still refuses). 

I don't know that he'll actually believe it until I'm out of the house though. Denial is a way of life with these men.


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## Waking up to life

My therapist recommended that I meet with an attorney before I announce my decision to divorce, to have a clearer idea what I'm facing and to be prepared. I did email 2 different attorneys asking to set up a consultation. Neither have responded. The only day I have time to call is on Fridays, but this past Fri I didn't have time b/c I had a lot of other appointments and my son was with me. So I have to wait til next Fri. The other issue is that unless the first consult is free, I can't pay for it without my H knowing. It's not that I can't afford it, it's just that he'd find out just like he did when I went to IC and paid with the checking account. All of our money is direct deposited into our joint account. The only way I can get money is to wait til the end of April when I get my quarterly bonus which isn't direct deposited. 

So...should I just go ahead and tell him I want a divorce and get it over with, so I don't have to wait and hide what I'm doing? Or should I wait it out and keep hiding what I'm doing from him? I'm tired of having to do that, and the longer I stay 'in hiding'', the more he thinks everything is ok and back to normal. I don't know which way is right.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown

Waking up to life said:


> I will be the bad guy...there's no way around that. I just have to be ready to handle that.


If he is a BPDer as you suspect, he will usually perceive you to be "the bad guy" regardless of whether you stay or leave. BPDers have a powerful desire to validate their false image of being "The Victim," always "The Victim." Hence, the only way a BPDer will allow you to remain in the relationship is if you continue to validate that false self image.

This means you have only two possible roles to play in the marriage: being "The Savior" (as you were during the courtship) or being "The Perpetrator" (which you've been most of the time since the wedding). In either role, you are validating his false self image of being the eternal victim.


> Why for god's sake am I back to this point??


You are back at that point -- walking on eggshells while playing your role as "The Perpetrator" -- because it is one of only two roles you can play without causing him to walk out. Importantly, you do not determine which of those roles you can play. He determines that. 

When he is splitting you white, you can be "The Savior." But, of course, he is only interested in being validated as victim, not being saved. That's why, whenever you pull him from the raging seas, he will jump right back into the water as soon as you turn your head. But, while you are "saving him," the implication of course is that he must be "The Victim" or you wouldn't be making such efforts to rescue him.

Conversely, when he is splitting you black (as will occur most days), you are only allowed to be "The Perpetrator," i.e., the source of every misfortune and all unhappiness in the marriage. Again, the implication is that he MUST be "The Victim" when you are to blame for everything that goes wrong.


> Somehow my H has managed to get me to shut up about my unhappiness.


No, he doesn't "get you" to do anything. He doesn't have that power over you. Rather, you simply CHOOSE to do it. Within the first year of your marriage, you likely had already realized that you must sometimes walk on eggshells to hold your marriage together -- and you chose to do so instead of walking away. 

Like you, I made the very same decision. The result was that I spend a small fortune taking my exW to six psychologists in weekly visits for 15 years -- almost the length of your marriage. Like you, I enjoyed being "The Savior" during the courtship period and, after the wedding, on rare occasions throughout the marriage. Mostly, however, I played "The Perpetrator," allowing her to blame me for every misfortune. No, I never agreed with her accusations. But I did support them by being quiet and neglecting to walk out when my exW was verbally abusive.


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## KathyBatesel

WUTL, I feel bad for you, because I've been in your shoes. All these years later, when I look back, I find myself wondering if things would have been different if I had been different, and in some cases the answer is yes and in others, it's no. 

I heard the same garbage. "Why can't you just be happy?" "Why aren't you ever satisfied?" "Why do you always set all these goals instead of just accepting what we have?" 

I have eventually come to recognize that I *AM* too critical and judgmental. I've had to learn how to filter those thoughts. You said you've reached a point where you don't talk about the things that make you unhappy, and I can't help but wonder exactly how many things make you unhappy. There may be some truth to what your husband says. Even if many of the problems are significant! Do you have an urge to voice displeasure over the little things, too? 

If we rated "problems" on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being "annoyed by something left out on the counter" and 10 being "imprisoned for a crime you didn't commit" how big are the problems you're wanting to voice?


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## Waking up to life

Uptown...You are right...within the first year of our marriage, I remembered thinking "who the hell is this monster and what did he do to my husband?" We HATED each other during that first year. As usual, I figured oh, just wait it out, everyone has a hard time adjusting, we're just stressed, blah blah blah. And even worse, I began to believe a lot of the things that he thought about me were true. He projected terrible anger and irrational expectations on me, completely confusing me. I was young (19), and way too impressionable. I internalized it all and just figured there must be SOME truth to his accusations about me for him to feel so strongly about these things. Maybe I am lazy, maybe I am dumb about money, maybe I should clean the house better, maybe I am being a Princess for wanting us to buy a house...the self doubt went on and on and on. If I were more mature and experienced, hell no I wouldn't have taken that sitting down. 

But yes, unfortunately I did choose to allow him to shut me up once again, didn't I. Hard habit to break. But now my silence is more because I don't have much more to say. Everything I have tried to say has either fallen on deaf ears or been turned back against me. And he has NO IDEA how difficult it was for me to speak my mind like I have recently...it took tremendous courage and determination to try make him realize how unhappy I am in this marriage when I had been silent for so long. And what did I get in return? Brushed aside and told to get over myself and appreciate the good things I have in life. So now, I guess the only thing left to say is goodbye. He will be shocked. He will say he thought everything was ok. He will point to all of his superficial attempts to make things seem better on the surface and ask why I can't see that he's trying. I just need to figure out how/when to start World War III.


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## Waking up to life

KathyBatesel said:


> WUTL, I feel bad for you, because I've been in your shoes. All these years later, when I look back, I find myself wondering if things would have been different if I had been different, and in some cases the answer is yes and in others, it's no.
> 
> I heard the same garbage. "Why can't you just be happy?" "Why aren't you ever satisfied?" "Why do you always set all these goals instead of just accepting what we have?"
> 
> I have eventually come to recognize that I *AM* too critical and judgmental. I've had to learn how to filter those thoughts. You said you've reached a point where you don't talk about the things that make you unhappy, and I can't help but wonder exactly how many things make you unhappy. There may be some truth to what your husband says. Even if many of the problems are significant! Do you have an urge to voice displeasure over the little things, too?
> 
> If we rated "problems" on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being "annoyed by something left out on the counter" and 10 being "imprisoned for a crime you didn't commit" how big are the problems you're wanting to voice?


I get what you're saying. Yes, I am a fairly critical person, because I expect a lot out of myself, and I forget that other people don't always think the same way I do. 

What have I been unhappy about? I don't like living in a trailer. It's too small and things are hard to fix because nothing is "standard". I don't complain about it on a daily, weekly, or even monthly basis. But I have expressed my desire to move to a real home for probably the past 10 years off and on. Each time, I have been smacked down, told NO WAY, been made to feel selfish for wanting that, and the subject goes off the table for discussion. 

13 years ago, the toilet broke in our main bathroom. The shower also needed replaced. My H ripped the shower and toilet out, and he had to take the crown moulding off the ceiling in the bathroom to get the shower out. He did replace the shower pretty quickly. But the toilet didn't get replaced. He made it such a big deal...we have to repaint and put up new crown moulding first, but the crown moulding is going to be really hard to cut, blah blah blah... I nagged him after a year of having to use the toilet in the other bathroom all the time. He got mad and bought the crown moulding all in a huff. And it sat there and sat there...in fact, it's still sitting in the garage untouched. I finally painted the bathroom hoping it would motivate him to do the toilet. Nope. He kept making excuses. He wouldn't let me hire someone else to do it either. So for *12 years*, we had no toilet in our bathroom, until last summer when someone wanted to come look at our trailer because they were thinking of buying our property. Guess what? It took both of us about 2 hours at the most to get that damned toilet installed. 12 years of no toilet for 2 hours worth of work. 

I wanted to have two kids. We both knew that before we got married. I brought up having a baby probably too soon after we got married. My H said we should wait at least a couple of years...he was right, so I dropped it. After 3 years went by, I mentioned it again. The answer was still no, but that time there wasn't a "let's wait til..." It was just no. No kids. End of discussion. I was devastated and in disbelief. Surely he'd come around, I thought. Thankfully I got pregnant unplanned, and I have our one and only son. When I told my sister in law about being pregnant, she said she was surprised, because my H had told his family that we were "never having kids". That hurt me to hear that. And as you can extrapolate, the "two kids" thing never happened. I asked several times about having a second one, and was always told just be glad we at least have one. That should be good enough. End of discussion. 

We never go on vacation, except for rare long weekend trips within driving distance. I've always wanted to go on a "real" vacation...like to a beach or something nice. The trips we've done are very limited. One time we went to St Louis for 3 days. I planned everything, down to driving directions and attractions to see. Well, the hotel was not as nice as I thought, and the places to eat around there were "tourist trap" over priced places and not a lot to pick from. My H did nothing but complain about everything. He got so mad at me for "not planning it out better", he yelled at me in our hotel room and said I need to stop trying to "act like we're rich, because we're not!", and quit trying to go on vacations that waste our money that we don't have. 

I don't EVER nag him about day to day stuff, like leaving his socks on the floor. I never beg him to take me on elaborate vacations to Europe. I never ask for expensive jewelry (although he has bought me a few nice things for my birthday). What I'm unhappy about is his disregard for my feelings and his refusal to consider my needs and opinions on major life decisions like buying a house or having kids. I'm unhappy that he thinks I'm lazy for wanting to sleep in on Saturdays. I'm unhappy that he's gained 120 lbs and can't share the same lifestyle with me that I would like to have because of it. I'm unhappy because he's 42 but acts like he's 75...he says he's "old" and never feels good, something is always ailing him, hurting, or bothering him. 

These are the things I'm unhappy about, but he won't listen to me about them. He says I just need to "get over myself" and accept life as it is, that I'm unrealistic for thinking life could/should be better than it is.


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## KathyBatesel

Wow, you two are so much better at controlling each other than you are at controlling yourselves! 

If you want something done and ask him, only to find he doesn't do it, try asking him how much time he needs for the project to be done, so you'll know it's ok to hire someone or do it yourself if it's not done by that date. 

If you want to sleep in, and your absence doesn't interfere with others' obligations or deprive them unfairly of time with you, then do it. My ex used to want to wake me up early all the time just so I would be up. He didn't have any plans, just wanted me up and then he'd go do his own thing. Nope. That happened a couple times but then I stopped getting up and he stopped trying.


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## Waking up to life

I don't see how I'm controlling him by waiting patiently for 12 years for him to fix the toilet, or by silently resigning to the fact that he decided to change our plans for having kids, or by living in a trailer for 19 years when we can afford a nicer home, or by watching him get bigger and bigger and our sex life getting smaller and smaller....and being told all of those topics are off the table for discussion and I have no right to be upset about any of them.


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## Mahogany

I've read this short story.

It ended before it began. Your original post was to seek a solution to a problem with your marriage. That problem is a loss in respect, the theme for each of your posts, towards your husband. 

Continue as you like, but understand there is only so much YOU can do.


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## Waking up to life

Mahogany said:


> I've read this short story.
> 
> It ended before it began. Your original post was to seek a solution to a problem with your marriage. That problem is a loss in respect, the theme for each of your posts, towards your husband.
> 
> Continue as you like, but understand there is only so much YOU can do.


You're right, of course. And I think the core issue with trying to "fix" that is that my H thinks I need to adjust my attitude towards him and choose to respect and love him...stop looking at all the negatives, what's in the past is in the past...it's up to me completely to fix this and I can if I choose to do so. 

I think it's not that easy. I can't just snap my fingers and instantly feel all the respect and love for him that he thinks he deserves and forget about the fact that he hasn't respected me as an equal partner in our marriage for the past 19 years.


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## sinnister

From what I can tell in my limited understanding of the facts, you and your husband have completely different life goals.

It's one thing if you both changed as time went on, but to be so opposed to everything...the signs surely would have presented themself before marriage, am I right?

I mean not wanting to live in a house? Not wanting children, those are pretty huge life milestones to change your mind on. Not obsolving him of any wrong doing...in fact the opposite. I think the two of you need to set clear common life goals or ......


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## jd08

Waking up to life said:


> My therapist recommended that I meet with an attorney before I announce my decision to divorce, to have a clearer idea what I'm facing and to be prepared.
> 
> So...should I just go ahead and tell him I want a divorce and get it over with, so I don't have to wait and hide what I'm doing? Or should I wait it out and keep hiding what I'm doing from him? I'm tired of having to do that, and the longer I stay 'in hiding'', the more he thinks everything is ok and back to normal. I don't know which way is right.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


NO! I'm a family law attorney and the worst thing you can do when the other spouse will resist the divorce/separation is to let them know ahead of time what you are doing. You have joint assets and a child together. Those things need to be protected if you anticipate a hostile response. Your attorney can also advise you on issues such as moving out of the marital house, chhikd support and alimony if you anticipate that your H might seek spousal support from you. 

Get your legal ducks in a row before letting him know anything.


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## Waking up to life

sinnister said:


> From what I can tell in my limited understanding of the facts, you and your husband have completely different life goals.
> 
> It's one thing if you both changed as time went on, but to be so opposed to everything...the signs surely would have presented themself before marriage, am I right?
> 
> I mean not wanting to live in a house? Not wanting children, those are pretty huge life milestones to change your mind on. Not obsolving him of any wrong doing...in fact the opposite. I think the two of you need to set clear common life goals or ......


I was 19 and he was 22 when we got married. We think we know everything at that age, but we don't. As mentioned, we talked about kids and planned to have a couple of kids down the road. We lived in an apartment for the first 6 months we were married and planned on looking for a house when the lease agreement was up. Since we were young, we didn't have a lot of credit, so we bought a new trailer and put it on his beautiful lot at the edge of the woods in the country (his parents gave all of their kids a piece of the farmland to build on if they wanted to). The idea was to work for a while, save up money, build our credit, and eventually build a home on the property. 

Well, as you can see, that never happened. We made some bad money decisions which kept us from saving money...he quit his full time job and used our savings to start up his own business. I reluctantly quit my full time job to work with him. We lost A LOT of money and lived on credit cards for several years. I finally insisted on getting myself a regular full time job because we had no health insurance and NO money. He kept doing his business for a while, then finally I convinced him to throw in the towel. He went back to school to get his degree and got a decent paying job with benefits. We slowly dug ourselves out of debt. Nearing the end of it, and with both of us making more money, I started asking about getting out of this trailer. He would absolutely not discuss it. He said it made him feel like a "bad provider" when I complain about not wanting to live in the trailer. He still says that. If I complain about our house, I'm essentially saying I'm not happy with him as a provider. No amount of talking will convince him that it's not personal...I just don't want to live in a trailer for the rest of my life.

In our most recent argument about this, he reluctantly agreed that within the next year or two we should plan to move, "because we can't have you being unhappy living here like this." After all of these years of being told I was selfish and putting a burden on him by asking about buying a house, I have a hard time believing he suddenly cares about my feelings about this. I guess I have lost a lot of trust in him emotionally over the years after being told one thing but then refusing to follow through with it and making me the bad guy for being hurt by his pulling the rug out from underneath me.


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## Waking up to life

jd08 said:


> NO! I'm a family law attorney and the worst thing you can do when the other spouse will resist the divorce/separation is to let them know ahead of time what you are doing. You have joint assets and a child together. Those things need to be protected if you anticipate a hostile response. Your attorney can also advise you on issues such as moving out of the marital house, chhikd support and alimony if you anticipate that your H might seek spousal support from you.
> 
> Get your legal ducks in a row before letting him know anything.


Thank you for your input. I have a consultation appointment scheduled for this Friday with an attorney. It seems surreal that I'm to that point now. I'm hopeful this will help give me a better sense of direction so that I can get on with my life.


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## pink_lady

I can't remember if I already mentioned this, but you definitely want to read 'Living with the Passive Aggressive Man'. Your H, whatever his other issues may be, is CLASSIC P-A. 

The book, written by a psychotherapist, will shed some light on why he does these things. The author recommends getting out when the man refuses to work on his issues (or even admit there are any issues). It was a big help to me. Not because I was trying to fix the relationship anymore, but to help me put his behavior in perspective and realize I wasn't nuts.


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## Waking up to life

pink_lady said:


> I can't remember if I already mentioned this, but you definitely want to read 'Living with the Passive Aggressive Man'. Your H, whatever his other issues may be, is CLASSIC P-A.
> 
> The book, written by a psychotherapist, will shed some light on why he does these things. The author recommends getting out when the man refuses to work on his issues (or even admit there are any issues). It was a big help to me. Not because I was trying to fix the relationship anymore, but to help me put his behavior in perspective and realize I wasn't nuts.


Thanks Pink Lady...I will definitely check this out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KathyBatesel

Waking up to life said:


> I don't see how I'm controlling him by waiting patiently for 12 years for him to fix the toilet, or by silently resigning to the fact that he decided to change our plans for having kids, or by living in a trailer for 19 years when we can afford a nicer home, or by watching him get bigger and bigger and our sex life getting smaller and smaller....and being told all of those topics are off the table for discussion and I have no right to be upset about any of them.


^ this stuff is controlling because you're expecting HIM to do what matters to you instead of taking whatever steps would make yourself happy. If it's not his priority, but it matters to you, then it's YOU that has a problem AND the responsibility for fixing it. He's entitled to his own priorities, but his don't take precedence over yours.


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## bailingout

KathyBatesel said:


> ^ this stuff is controlling because you're expecting HIM to do what matters to you instead of taking whatever steps would make yourself happy.





KathyBatesel said:


> ^If it's not his priority, but it matters to you, then it's YOU that has a problem AND the responsibility for fixing it. He's entitled to his own priorities, but his don't take precedence over yours.


Kathy--Your comment has me quite confused or maybe it doesn't. :scratchhead: 

I agree she could have handled the toilet situation differently, she could have just hired someone to do it if she wanted it fixed when he refused. Instead, she just waited for him to do it, I get that part but not sure how she was being controlling, although it does seem she is blaming him. Maybe I need to look at my view of "controlling" a little more. 

And the 2nd quote....Is this the point where she has to decide how she is going to fix her problem via establishing boundries perhaps and/or deciding if its a deal breaker? I'm not sure if I am explaining my question clearly or in an understandable way.

To me, the 2nd quote makes me feel like you're saying that I am solely responsible for my issues/problems with something, *which I do understand that I AM*, but does that mean that I should not even expect my partner to show an ounce of concern for how I feel? I get that it's my problem to fix and am just wondering if a simple "I'm sorry you feel like that" or "I understand that bothers you" would go a long way in preventing the resentment that builds from never being acknowledged. 

If any of that makes any sense at all....lol


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## KathyBatesel

bailingout said:


> Kathy--Your comment has me quite confused or maybe it doesn't. :scratchhead:
> 
> I agree she could have handled the toilet situation differently, she could have just hired someone to do it if she wanted it fixed when he refused. Instead, she just waited for him to do it, I get that part but not sure how she was being controlling, although it does seem she is blaming him. Maybe I need to look at my view of "controlling" a little more.
> 
> And the 2nd quote....Is this the point where she has to decide how she is going to fix her problem via establishing boundries perhaps and/or deciding if its a deal breaker? I'm not sure if I am explaining my question clearly or in an understandable way.
> 
> To me, the 2nd quote makes me feel like you're saying that I am solely responsible for my issues/problems with something, *which I do understand that I AM*, but does that mean that I should not even expect my partner to show an ounce of concern for how I feel? I get that it's my problem to fix and am just wondering if a simple "I'm sorry you feel like that" or "I understand that bothers you" would go a long way in preventing the resentment that builds from never being acknowledged.
> 
> If any of that makes any sense at all....lol


It makes perfect sense!

I can see where the idea of "controlling" vs. "blaming" might appear to be confusing. I'm getting the sense that she lets him know that she expects him to do it, and he knows that he'll blamed if he doesn't. This is where I think he would feel as if she's trying to control him. 

Now, is it reasonable for her to expect her husband to do those things? Well, yeah, IF he's a reasonable person who she trusts to take responsibility. But when he's shown that he doesn't take that responsibility, then continuing to have those expectations gets to being pretty dysfunctional for the relationship. It just causes more problems instead of solutions.


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## Waking up to life

So, I can't go back in time and change how I handled or didn't handle things that really mattered to me. I should've been stronger, bolder, more sure of myself and stood up for myself when I didn't. Instead, these things just caused hurt, and I bought into his notion that it was MY problem for feeling hurt because I shouldn't have been. So I stewed and allowed these things to erode at my self esteem and sense of self-worth. And so the next time something came up that I was upset by, I subconciously short-circuited the process and just bottled up the hurt without going through the pain of him telling me how I was wrong, ignorant, selfish, etc for feeling that way. It's a terrible vicious cycle that I've only recently discovered. I tried to explain that to him. He cannot for his life understand where I'm coming from...or, rather, he doesn't want to understand. He didn't ask questions to clarify what I was getting at...he didn't encourage me to explain what I meant, he told me any example I gave is just proof that I hold grudges against him, because if it was important enough for me to remember, I've obvioulsy held a grudge about it. 

Since I can't go back in time to change these things, and since my H refuses to discuss these issues because they are in the past and I need to "stop holding grudges about every little thing", I have two choices: 1) Subscribe to "what's in the past is in the past" and that I hold grudges too much, let go of the hurt and resentment that I've wrongly held on to, and force myself to regain the respect I have lost for my husband until it returns naturally (assuming he truly changes his ways and this current "nice" behavior isn't just a facade); or 2) Decide I can't just "get over it" and divorce him...because in order for me to move forward and regain love and respect for my H, I feel I need to get these issues talked out and he needs to hear me and understand WHY they caused so much hurt...but he doesn't want to hear any of it. He said so flat out.


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## A Bit Much

To rugsweep or not to rugsweep? That is the question you're asking yourself. 

The next question you need to ask is how that's been working for you so far?


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## 3Xnocharm

"because in order for me to move forward and regain love and respect for my H, I feel I need to get these issues talked out and he needs to hear me and understand WHY they caused so much hurt...but he doesn't want to hear any of it. He said so flat out. "



Pretty sure this is your answer right here.


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## Waking up to life

A Bit Much said:


> To rugsweep or not to rugsweep? That is the question you're asking yourself.
> 
> The next question you need to ask is how that's been working for you so far?


Obviously not so well...for me anyway. I guess our problem is that my H and I see rugsweeping in completely different ways. I told him it really bothers me when he's been obviously upset with me, giving me the cold shoulder or getting angry at me about something, then all the sudden the next day he acts like everything is fine. He acts all cheery and talkative, while I still have a big WTF?? going on in my head. He never apologizes or even acknowledges that he might have upset me. Like it never happened. And I'm supposed to just carry on like nothing ever happened too. If I don't, I'm holding grudges. To him, rugsweeping is more like a positive way to not hold grudges and not stay mad at each other. If he was mad one day but then all fine the next day, that's my cue that he's over it, he's not mad at me anymore, he's moved on and today is another clean slate. Simple as that. 

I told him if he KNOWS he upset me or he KNOWS he was giving me the cold shoulder about something but then gets over it, it would go a long way for him to come to me and genuinely apologize or at least acknowledge my feelings and not just act like nothing happened. Because I can't always read his mind. And it would make me feel like he truly cared to make sure I was ok and that he wasn't upset with me anymore. 

So this issue is one of those irreconcilable differences, I guess. He thinks he's right, I think I'm right. Maybe he is right, but it doesn't work for me.


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## Uptown

Waking up to life said:


> My H refuses to discuss these issues because they are in the past and I need to "stop holding grudges about every little thing",


Likewise, my BPDer exW often was accusing me of "holding grudges." Because she was intolerant of experiencing mixed feelings or uncertainty, she would "split off" the opposing feeling. In that way, she only did black-white thinking. The result was that, after throwing a five hour temper tantrum and hating me, she could flip in seconds to loving me and wanting to jump into bed with me. 

In contrast, I had no desire to be intimate with her for days after witnessing an outpouring of hatred and rage. To her, of course, this appeared to be a case of "holding grudges" when, in fact, I simply had the ability to experience mixed feelings.

I can identify with her misunderstanding because, when I was about 8 years old, I held the same view. Namely, I observed that adults seemed to be grudge holders because, once they had a falling out, they usually would not be friends again. It was puzzling to me that the adults could not do what was so effortless to us children, who would fuss and fight for a few hours and then be best of friends again. 

What I did not realize, of course, was that -- as a child -- I was capable only of experiencing black-white thinking and thus was intolerant of ambiguities, mixed feelings, and uncertainties. Moreover, I still had not learned to see object constancy the way an adult can see it. This is why, when you betray or offend an adult, they expect you to do the same thing again the next time you have a chance. They know that your personality likely is very constant over time.


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## Waking up to life

Very insightful Uptown. I hadn't thought about it in that way...children fight and get over it and become best friends within a matter of hours. Part of the reason it's easier for them to do that is that usually what they are fighting about is relatively minor and of little consequence in the grand scheme of things. Fights between adults run much deeper than calling someone a poopoo head or fighting over a crayon. Feelings get hurt, trust is lost, boundaries are crossed...not so easy for an adult with normal emotional intelligence to flip a switch and "get over it". For my H, perhaps his grievances with me were as easy to turn on and off as though I stole his crayon, when to me it cut much deeper.


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## Uptown

Waking up to life said:


> For my H, perhaps his grievances with me were as easy to turn on and off as though I stole his crayon, when to me it cut much deeper.


Waking, my understanding is that a BPDer does not flip between hating you and loving you because "it is easy to turn on and off" but, rather, because he never learned how to do otherwise. That is, he doesn't know how to tolerate being in touch with both his good feelings and his bad feelings toward you simultaneously. 

Hence, when his tantrum has run its course and you do something to trigger a good feeling, he cannot tolerate seeing you as the good/bad (i.e., grey) person that you really are. Instead, he will lose touch with the bad feelings toward you and put them out of reach of his conscious mind -- replacing them entirely with the good feelings. Of course, both the good and bad feelings he has toward you are STILL THERE in his mind. But he can be in touch with only one set of feelings at a time (or he becomes very uncomfortable, distressed, and confused).

Significantly, because the BPDer cannot tolerate the grey areas, he will flip just as rapidly between the two polar extremes (love and hate) regardless of whether the triggering event is trivial (e.g., stealing his crayon) or serious (e.g., a threat of abandonment). I therefore believe it is a mistake to think of him flipping rapidly because his grievances with you are minor, as when you "stole his crayon." 

Likewise, I believe it is a mistake to think that you are unable to flip rapidly because you were "cut much deeper." Instead, I would rather say that the reason you don't flip rapidly (i.e., the reason you seem to "hold grudges") is that you acquired the skill of remaining in touch with ALL of your feelings simultaneously -- regardless of whether those feelings arose from shallow or deep cuts. 

This is why, for emotionally mature adults like you, all close human relationships are experienced as bundles of feelings (e.g., hate and dislike as well as love and caring). And this is why, when you are expressing love and concern to someone, your facial muscles will be displaying many conflicting feelings. 

For example, while your broad smile and your eyes are saying _"I love you,"_ your eyebrows may be saying _"but I'm not so sure about it."_ One of the most endearing things about BPDers, then, is that -- while they are splitting you white -- you will see on their faces a purity of expression (e.g., unmitigated joy) that otherwise is only seen in young children. 

This is one reason that BPDers are so very easy to fall in love with -- something that you and I know so well. For the folks who have never fallen in love with a BPDer, I always suggest that they watch any movie with Marilyn Monroe in it. Within a half hour, they will know what all the fuss is about.


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## Waking up to life

Ok that makes total sense now. You should write a book Uptown. I'd buy it in a heartbeat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Waking up to life

So...a few weeks ago I made the final decision to leave. Actually I made that decision a while back, but I really fought it for a while. I have accepted that it's time to move on. I haven't told him yet. I found an apartment that I really like. Today I got approved for the lease and I put the deposit down. It will be mine to move into as soon as next Friday. 

Next comes the moment I've dreaded for an eternity (and partly why I stayed in this dysfunctional marriage so long): dropping the bomb on him. And yes, that's how he'll take it. Despite my numerous attempts to improve our communication, to talk to him even when it was incredibly difficult to do, despite our ugly conversations that ended up with him sticking his head in the sand, despite my attempts to get us to go to counseling which failed...he will be absolutely shocked and say he didn't know I felt this way. 

He will be devastated and hurt and beg me not to leave. This is what I'm dreading so much. Despite our issues, I truly don't want to hurt him and I wish no harm or ill-will for him. I don't hate him. I just can't stay in a marriage that is devoid of passion, that revolves around his preferences while mine are pushed aside, where we can't openly communicate with each other. I am not blaming him 100% for the breakdown of our marriage. I've not been good in the past about communicating with him or about setting my own boundaries. I've tried as much as I can to find happiness in our marriage, but there's too much missing. 

So the next few weeks are going to be the hardest weeks of my life. Wish me luck. I feel confident this is the right thing to do. But there's always that little voice saying "what if you regret it? What if you're making the wrong decision?" As I said to my counselor today, all I can do is make the best decision I can with the resources and knowledge I have available to me. I don't have a crystal ball. But I do know that right or wrong, I have to get off this fence and make a decision and move forward with my life.


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## Uptown

Waking up to life said:


> Next comes the moment I've dreaded for an eternity (and partly why I stayed in this dysfunctional marriage so long): dropping the bomb on him. And yes, that's how he'll take it.


Waking, thanks so much for giving us an update. I wish the two of you the very best at the separation. If he has strong BPD traits, as you suspect, he likely will become very vindictive when he realizes that his pleading is not working. This is why the separation usually is the most dangerous time to be around a BPDer whose greatest fear, after all, is abandonment.

I therefore strongly recommend that you make the announcement in a public place, where there are plenty of witnesses. If you must be together with him at home -- say, when you are moving furniture -- it is important to go there with some other people, ideally strangers like movers or repairmen. 

As you know well by now, it is best to get all your ducks in a row (as you're doing with the apt. rental) before making the announcement. Frankly, Waking, I am concerned for your safety. If he is a BPDer, he is sufficiently unstable that you cannot predict WHAT his reaction will be based on his past behavior. 

My BPDer exW, for example, did things to me (e.g., having me thrown into jail and kicked out of my own home) that I never would have believed she was capable of doing. Please be careful, Waking. Very very careful.


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## Waking up to life

You are right Uptown. I have thought and thought through the different scenarios that could play out. I know my H very well (better than HE knows him in some ways), but as I've never announced a divorce to him before, it really is hard to predict how he will behave. My counselor asked if I thought he had any potential to become violent, and I said I really don't think so. But...given the fact that I'm about to make his absolute worst fear (abandonment) come true, who really knows for sure? 

My counselor advised not to tell him anything until I have the apartment available to me...in case I need to get out immediately. He said its best to rip the bandaid off quickly once I do it. I will keep your recommendations in mind as I work my way through this. Thanks for the support.


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## Lyris

Wishing you well.


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## Anon Pink

Just read the whole thread. Wow, waking up you sure have some excellent insight.

I also wanted to wish you best of luck as you move through the next few steps. I wish I had some magic words for courage and confidence that you are doing the right thing.


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## tryingtobebetter

Like Lyris, I wish you well.


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## Lucianne

I wish you well on going through this. I have never read something so close to my own situation. It is a miserable way to live life.


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## Waking up to life

coffee4me said:


> I could have written this is is so hauntingly familiar. It was so difficult to be firm when he was a mess trying to grasp the situation. I remember thinking that I had to do what was going to be best for both of us as I knew he never would.
> 
> Sending my strength and positive thoughts your way.


How did you tell him you were leaving? Did you move out right away?


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## ALWAYS TRYING

Just checking in. Do hope your ok. Be strong and remember what you want..

Big hugs


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## Waking up to life

ALWAYS TRYING said:


> Just checking in. Do hope your ok. Be strong and remember what you want..
> 
> Big hugs


Thanks for thinking of me. I had planned to tell my H tomorrow, but due to several circumstances, I'm going to wait until next Fri the 24th. I get the keys to my apartment tomorrow, so I can start ordering stuff and buying things to slowly bring in. I have the week of May 27th off work, so I will have the whole week to move after I tell him. 

It seems so surreal what's getting ready to happen. I'm excited to move on and be happy, but dreading the conversation more than anything I've dreaded in my life. I'm hoping this coming week I'll feel a little stronger seeing my apartment turn into my new home. I do worry about my son, but he's a very good kid and I've always been a good mom to him, so I'm sure we'll make it through ok.


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## JustSomeGuyWho

Waking up to life said:


> Thanks for thinking of me. I had planned to tell my H tomorrow, but due to several circumstances, I'm going to wait until next Fri the 24th. I get the keys to my apartment tomorrow, so I can start ordering stuff and buying things to slowly bring in. I have the week of May 27th off work, so I will have the whole week to move after I tell him.
> 
> It seems so surreal what's getting ready to happen. I'm excited to move on and be happy, but dreading the conversation more than anything I've dreaded in my life. I'm hoping this coming week I'll feel a little stronger seeing my apartment turn into my new home. I do worry about my son, but he's a very good kid and I've always been a good mom to him, so *I'm sure we'll make it through ok.*


The two of you WILL make it through ok, I am certain of it.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Waking up to life said:


> Thanks for thinking of me. I had planned to tell my H tomorrow, but due to several circumstances, I'm going to wait until next Fri the 24th. I get the keys to my apartment tomorrow, so I can start ordering stuff and buying things to slowly bring in. I have the week of May 27th off work, so I will have the whole week to move after I tell him.
> 
> It seems so surreal what's getting ready to happen. I'm excited to move on and be happy, but dreading the conversation more than anything I've dreaded in my life. I'm hoping this coming week I'll feel a little stronger seeing my apartment turn into my new home. I do worry about my son, but he's a very good kid and I've always been a good mom to him, so I'm sure we'll make it through ok.


Having your own place lined up is very empowering. I understand how it feels to dread "that" conversation. It was the scariest thing I have ever done, and I have done it twice.  Just, rip off that band aid. You wont believe the weight that is lifted once its done.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

3Xnocharm said:


> Having your own place lined up is very empowering. I understand how it feels to dread "that" conversation. It was the scariest thing I have ever done, and I have done it twice.  Just, rip off that band aid. You wont believe the weight that is lifted once its done.


Yes, I agree. When I separated, I think I looked grey that whole day leading up to the discussion. I felt like death warmed over. Easily the most difficult thing I ever did. That first month having my own place and feeling like I was once again in control of my life ... empowering is a good word.


----------



## Waking up to life

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Yes, I agree. When I separated, I think I looked grey that whole day leading up to the discussion. I felt like death warmed over. Easily the most difficult thing I ever did. That first month having my own place and feeling like I was once again in control of my life ... empowering is a good word.


I can relate. I have felt like death warmed over for the past few weeks. Literally I think about it and my heart begins to race and I can feel the blood draining from my face. 

So...when you told her, what did you say? Was the whole thing as bad as you thought it would be? I'm thinking it WILL be exactly as bad as I imagine, or maybe worse. To my disadvantage, I'm dealing with an unreasonable man who has a mood and/or personality disorder, albeit high functioning. That will add another whole level of suckiness to this conversation. 

I signed the lease on my apartment today. After the leasing agent left my apartment, I stayed a few minutes to put away my paper towels, toilet paper, soap, etc. My apartment is empty right now...will be ordering furniture next week. But I stood around in my empty apartment and just smiled and breathed. I desperately wanted to stay longer...it just feels "right" to be there. But my H was waiting for me to come home so I could cater to him again as I have all week because of his foot pain.  I can't wait to move in and move on.


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## JustSomeGuyWho

Waking up to life said:


> I can relate. I have felt like death warmed over for the past few weeks. Literally I think about it and my heart begins to race and I can feel the blood draining from my face.
> 
> So...when you told her, what did you say? Was the whole thing as bad as you thought it would be? I'm thinking it WILL be exactly as bad as I imagine, or maybe worse. To my disadvantage, I'm dealing with an unreasonable man who has a mood and/or personality disorder, albeit high functioning. That will add another whole level of suckiness to this conversation.
> 
> I signed the lease on my apartment today. After the leasing agent left my apartment, I stayed a few minutes to put away my paper towels, toilet paper, soap, etc. My apartment is empty right now...will be ordering furniture next week. But I stood around in my empty apartment and just smiled and breathed. I desperately wanted to stay longer...it just feels "right" to be there. But my H was waiting for me to come home so I could cater to him again as I have all week because of his foot pain.  I can't wait to move in and move on.


Well, in retrospect I took the wrong approach. A lot of it is a blur right now ... while I was very matter of fact and it was planned out ahead of time, I was an emotional basketcase at that point. I simply wanted to get through it as quickly as possible. I remember a few key things ... I told her immediately what I was doing. That I was separating from her and had taken an apartment I told her I loved her but that our relationship could not continue the way it had. I did reach out to her and offer marriage counseling but only after one month of no contact (except for the kids). I told her what I thought a fair schedule was for making sure each of us had time with the girls. I detailed the financial arrangements and gave her a map to the apartment. That was important because I wanted her to know I wasn't abandoning her or my responsibilities to her and the children. The big mistake was I went into a list of grievances ... now I accepted as much blame as I thought was legitimate at the time but it could have been ugly. That gave her the opportunity to argue and get defensive and I didn't want it to turn into a debate because the decision had been made. I liken it to firing an employee. You just need to state what you are doing and make the arrangements ... as short and as to the point as possible, reducing the opportunity for debate.

While I was shaking after that discussion, it was a huge weight lifted. However ... that was the easy part ... telling my girls KILLED me. I spent more time planning that than anything else because I needed to make sure they knew I was still their dad, I would be there for them no matter what and that none of this was their fault. Afterwards, I held my oldest daughter for what seemed like an eternity. We just could not let go. I'm getting a lump in my throat even now just talking about it. That was not just as bad as I thought it would be ... it was far worse.

As bad as that was, I look back at it and I know it wasn't a mistake. I needed to do that and while my marriage very likely could fail still, so many positives came out of that; changes that needed to happen. I seized control of my life and it was the right thing to do for both me and my daughters ... and my wife in the long run.

EDIT: I remember that empty apartment feeling. Can't really describe it ... very strange but good. Walking into that apartment made it "official." Even though it was empty I made every excuse in the week prior to disclosure to be there. My daughters actually helped me decorate it after disclosure.


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## Waking up to life

In everything I've read about announcing divorce, they say it's best to state it and not go into details as to WHY you're divorcing. For every reason you give, it gives the partner an opportunity to attempt to try to talk you out of it. "I'm leaving because you don't treat me with respect as an equal partner" will be countered with "I didn't realize I was being that way! I can change! We can go back to counseling!" And knowing my H, he WILL beg and plead and argue and guilt and try everything he can to get me to stay. 

That's why my having this apartment in place is good...I've already signed a year lease on it. I can't back out of it now. He can't beg and convince me to stay a little longer so we can work on it. 

Ugh! I'd rather give a speech in front of 5000 people than have this conversation with my H. But there's no way around it. I just wish I could predict his reaction. I know he'll beg, he'll cry (maybe...I think I've only seen him actually cry with tears once or twice in our marriage). Then I think once he sees he can't change my mind, he'll get angry. He'll try to say hurtful things, accuse me of cheating, say I'm a terrible mother for doing this. He's never been physically violent with me. I really don't see that happening. But...as Uptown said, with someone with mental instability, they may be capable of doing things you never thought they would. 

A good friend of mine advised me to put my Dad on notice before I tell my H...my Dad lives just 5 minutes away. So if things got really ugly I could call him to come over and diffuse the situation a bit or just get me and take me away. I hope it doesn't come to that.


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## Mr Blunt

Waking Up

You have done a good job of describing two main issues:

1	Your husband’s immaturity, self esteem, and extreme dependency

2	Your resentments against him and dissatisfaction with your current life.


You have also stated that he is not going to change and that you have to get out.

Based upon your posts you had to make a change. You have made that change and now you will know in time (a much much shorter time than 19 years!) if you are better with him or without him.

I believe this change will make you both a LOT better or worse. My guess is that he will make some improvements on his self esteem and extreme dependency and you will make some improvement on your resentments and expectations in life.

Many of us have a little bit or a lot of what you both have as a detriment to the marriage. *I hope that you will keep us informed as we can all learn from you*.

From what you wrote I would say that you and your husband will come out of this better in time. You are both good people that have some issues just like all of us. However, I do not see any real serious issues that cannot be improved upon or any issues that would devastate you for life. By serious issues that can devastate for life I mean; no mental illness, no drug addictions, no criminal felonies, no disabilities, no deep seated hatreds, etc.

I bet that next Christmas will be much better for you, your husband (ex-husband) and your son. 


*One thing is for sure. The actions that you have taken will surely increase the "Waking Up To Life"*


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## MsStacy

WUTL, I'm speechless. You are right...so much of what your husband says and accuses you of is straight from my husbands mouth. I read through your story this morning and it is eerie. The example you gave of forgetting to put gas in his car being turned into you punishing him could have come from my mouth. The day before yesterday I made myself a late lunch. H wasn't speaking to me so I didn't think to ask if he wanted any (besides I'm told that my cooking is the reason he's overweight, not his binge eating of course). I was told that I was subconciously punishing him.

I'm sorry to hear that you are leaving him, but I totally get it. That feeling you talk about, just standing in your empty apartment, it sounds so freeing. You're a strong, courageous woman. Good luck this week.


----------



## Waking up to life

Well I just went on a shopping trip with my Mom...I told my H we were going to the thrift store and maybe a couple of clothing stores. Which was true, we went to the thrift store (Salvation Army). We went in and I sat down on one of the couches for sale and told my mom to sit down, I had to tell her something. She said "you're leaving him aren't you?" I've talked to her a little bit about our issues in the past, she's known I haven't been happy for a while but she didn't know I had gotten to this point. She was very supportive and quickly realized my mission for wanting to go shopping was to look for stuff for my apartment. 

We got a few things there, then went to a furniture store. I picked out a sofa, love seat, 2 end tables, coffee table, dining room table w/4chairs, a matching bedroom set of dresser w/mirror, nightstand, chest, and headboard. Got a great price on all of that and they delivered it immediately. Now since it's cheaper furniture, it's mostly in boxes and needs to be assembled. But that's ok...I can do it, or I'll invite a friend over to help this week. 

Sometimes as I go through the motions of setting up my departure, I find myself feeling a little in over my head. There are SO many things I have to think about, set up, purchase, change over...so much to plan out money wise. It's easy to get overwhelmed, especially since I'm doing this all by myself and secretly. And I feel bad about that too...but I feel it's necessary to have a place to go before I announce. I just don't know how it will go from there...it's going to be day to day for a while.


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## Uptown

Waking, I still am concerned about your safety on Announcement Day. If your H is emotionally unstable, as you believe, there is no way to anticipate what actions he is capable of when his worst fear -- abandonment -- is suddenly realized. I therefore suggest you have clothing in the trunk of your car and try to meet him in public to tell him of your decision. If you then have to return to the house for any large boxes or furniture, take some household movers with you.


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## Waking up to life

Uptown said:


> Waking, I still am concerned about your safety on Announcement Day. If your H is emotionally unstable, as you believe, there is no way to anticipate what actions he is capable of when his worst fear -- abandonment -- is suddenly realized. I therefore suggest you have clothing in the trunk of your car and try to meet him in public to tell him of your decision. If you then have to return to the house for any large boxes or furniture, take some household movers with you.


Thank you for being concerned about me. Honestly I'm so used to him NOT being concerned about me beyond my ability to meet his needs, your concern is touching. And you are right...he is unstable emotionally and his very worst fear of all is abandonment. He'll never see that he made it a self-fulfilling prophecy. Actually the biggest fear if the unknown I have in all of this is not knowing how he will react. As I said, he's never been physically violent with me, and I really don't think he'd do something to harm me, but no one can be 100% sure. Hmmm...my counselor offered for me to make an appointment with him and tell my H to meet me there and I could announce there. Maybe I should think about doing it that way?


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## Uptown

Waking up to life said:


> My counselor offered for me to make an appointment with him and tell my H to meet me there and I could announce there. Maybe I should think about doing it that way?


Yes, please consider doing that. That way, you could each go your own way -- with you going to the apartment -- following the meeting.


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## Waking up to life

Uptown said:


> Yes, please consider doing that. That way, you could each go your own way -- with you going to the apartment -- following the meeting.


What would REALLY be awesome would be to rally a whole bunch of guys and gals from TAM to be there or very near by when I tell him. Talk about a boost of confidence! Then after, we could all go for a drink. Or two. Or three.


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## Uptown

Well, we will at least be there with you in spirit, Waking!


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## Prodigal

Waking up to life said:


> ... we could all go for a drink. Or two. Or three.


I'll drink to that!!!


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## Waking up to life

This is just exasperating and I want to vent. Yesterday my H wanted to go in town and get lunch and look for new tires for his car, which he's been researching online obsessively for weeks. Of course, I have to go everywhere with him, so I said ok, let me get our son up and all of us get ready to go. So we were all ready to walk out the door and my H plopped down on the chair...I said, um, let's go? He said in the most dramatic sad-faced way, 'I don't know if I even want to now. I sense that you are resentful about me needing new tires for my car. Maybe I should just sell my car so I won't have to spend money on it.' 

I told him his senses were WRONG and I don't even know what prompted him to think that. (I do...as Uptown explained, all I have to do is enter the room and somehow I have triggered some fabricated reality in his head. I'm guilty of existing, I guess.) I told him he was just hungry and we ARE going so I started out the door, and he followed. Somewhere along the way in the car, he again accused me of being resentful that he has a nice car. (This is ludicrous because I also have a nice car too.)

I'm being 100% truthful in saying that I IN NO WAY ever indicated that I was resentful about his car needing new tires. EVER!! I told him numerous times that he should get what he wants! But I'm a resentful old hag in his mind. 

Now this morning, all is well (relatively)...we had coffee and I fed the cats. We had a cookout to go to at noon. So around 9:30 I went and took a shower. I come out of the shower to find my H sitting in bed with a cold angry look on his face. I asked what was wrong. He said "Our son is never going to be made responsible is he? He told me he'd help me mow the lawn today and it's 9:30 and he's still in bed." I said both our son and I had assumed he'd mow the lawn in the afternoon after we got back from the cookout. It was never said that it was to be done in the morning, so how could my H expect him to read his mind? So I again went and woke up my son and said dad wants you up and getting ready to mow. I went and made him a simple breakfast while he got dressed. I brought it to my son, and my H went ballistic. He asked why I made him breakfast...he should have been made to do it himself. I said because I was trying to help get him ready to mow, since that got dropped on him unexpectedly. My H pursed his lips like he was getting ready to blow a gasket. He went and grabbed my car keys to movers out of the garage so he could mow. I asked him to wait a minute and let our son finish eating so he could come help. He said "no, I'm gonna go do it. I don't want to be around either one of you right now anyway" and stormed out the door. 

UUUGGGGHHH!! I was VERY close to saying "You don't want to be around me? Let me make that easy for you!" But I didn't. I don't want to announce divorce in anger because it detracts from my credibility (what little I have). I am ready to be done with the constant mind-eff games.


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## Uptown

Waking up to life said:


> I don't want to announce divorce in anger because it detracts from my credibility (what little I have).


The purpose of not announcing D in advance is _safety_, not _credibility_. If he has strong BPD traits, you will have no lasting credibility no matter what you do. He is incapable of trusting you for any extended period. 

Indeed, being a BPDer -- if that is what he is -- means he has an extremely weak sense of "object constancy," i.e., seeing you as a person whose personality essentially remains constant from day to day. Hence, no matter what impression you leave him with on D day, his memories likely will fluctuate greatly -- depending on what intense feelings he is in touch with on any given day. It therefore is futile to be worried about leaving him with a "favorable impression." It will quickly be washed aside by the next tide of emotions flooding through his mind.


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## Mr Blunt

> By WakingUptoLife
> 
> I asked what was wrong. He said "Our son is never going to be made responsible is he? *He told me he'd help me mow the lawn today and it's 9:30 and he's still in bed." *I said both our son and I had assumed he'd mow the lawn in the afternoon after we got back from the cookout. It was never said that it was to be done in the morning, so how could my H expect him to read his mind? *So I again went and woke up my son and said dad wants you up and getting ready to mow*. I went and made him a simple breakfast while he got dressed. I brought it to my son, and my H went ballistic. He asked why I made him breakfast...he should have been made to do it himself. I said because I was trying to help get him ready to mow, since that got dropped on him unexpectedly.



This may be minor and is only one of your many problems in your relationship and interactions with your husband.

The issue of your son helping your husband mow the lawn was an agreement that they both made among themselves. Your husband gave you the bait and you took it hook, line, and sinker. *You jumped in and volunteered to fix their problem*

Your husband gave you the bait when he told you


> He told me he'd help me mow the lawn today and it's 9:30 and he's still in bed."


You could have said, well *that is your agreement with our son and I have nothing to do with that*. Instead you took the bait and volunteered to fix everything for your husband. *That maybe viewed as you enabling him to stay in extreme dependency on you.*


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## Waking up to life

Mr Blunt said:


> This may be minor and is only one of your many problems in your relationship and interactions with your husband.
> 
> The issue of your son helping your husband mow the lawn was an agreement that they both made among themselves. Your husband gave you the bait and you took it hook, line, and sinker. *You jumped in and volunteered to fix their problem*
> 
> Your husband gave you the bait when he told you
> 
> 
> You could have said, well *that is your agreement with our son and I have nothing to do with that*. Instead you took the bait and volunteered to fix everything for your husband. *That maybe viewed as you enabling him to stay in extreme dependency on you.*


I can see where you're coming from with that. Yes, I have been an enabler for him for so long...but I only became aware of that in the past 6 months or so. Believe it or not, I have come a long way in stopping my enabling habits. In this particular case, when it involves our son, I do often feel the need to run interference so that H doesn't completely go berserk on him. 

But to tell the rest of the story...my son did go out right after he ate and offered to mow. My H has only recently decided to allow him to mow at all, so he has taught him once but he still needs a little guidance. So my son tells me when we were alone later that when he went out to mow, he sat on the mower and his dad said:

"Now you need to listen to me and do this the way I tell you. You're very very c0cky and arrogant and you think awfully highly of yourself, and you think you know everything. But you don't. So don't get all arrogant and start driving this thing around like you're playing a video game or something. And I swear to god if you hit one of our cars with the mower, I will beat the living sh*t out of you!" 

Isn't that a nice way to teach your son? THIS is the sh*t I try to run interference for. When my son told me this, my blood started to boil. I don't know if I can wait til this coming weekend to get the hell out of this nightmare. I'm SO angry right now. 

And by the way...my son is NOT the least bit c0cky or arrogant. He's smart and he is comfortable around all sorts of people. He never puts other people down or thinks he's so much better than everyone. I honestly could not ask for a better son than him.


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## JustSomeGuyWho

Waking up to life said:


> I can see where you're coming from with that. Yes, I have been an enabler for him for so long...but I only became aware of that in the past 6 months or so. Believe it or not, I have come a long way in stopping my enabling habits. In this particular case, when it involves our son, I do often feel the need to run interference so that H doesn't completely go berserk on him.
> 
> But to tell the rest of the story...my son did go out right after he ate and offered to mow. My H has only recently decided to allow him to mow at all, so he has taught him once but he still needs a little guidance. So my son tells me when we were alone later that when he went out to mow, he sat on the mower and his dad said:
> 
> "Now you need to listen to me and do this the way I tell you. You're very very c0cky and arrogant and you think awfully highly of yourself, and you think you know everything. But you don't. So don't get all arrogant and start driving this thing around like you're playing a video game or something. And I swear to god if you hit one of our cars with the mower, I will beat the living sh*t out of you!"
> 
> Isn't that a nice way to teach your son? THIS is the sh*t I try to run interference for. When my son told me this, my blood started to boil. I don't know if I can wait til this coming weekend to get the hell out of this nightmare. I'm SO angry right now.
> 
> And by the way...my son is NOT the least bit c0cky or arrogant. He's smart and he is comfortable around all sorts of people. He never puts other people down or thinks he's so much better than everyone. I honestly could not ask for a better son than him.


Holy crap. I don't even know what to say about that. Your husband has some serious issues.

It all seems to revolve around respect. He doesn't treat you with respect and in his discussion with his son, he is demanding his respect ... which will only have the opposite effect. It sounds like your husband doesn't respect himself.


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## Waking up to life

No, he has no respect for himself. He really hates himself in many ways...it's mostly due to his own self-loathing attitude. I have been so supportive, nurturing, even enabling to show him he is not worthless. But despite my efforts, he still manages to project his own disgust with himself onto me and our son. I can't fix him. I have to get out while I still have a shred of my own self respect left. Not to mention my son's emotional well-being is at stake.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt

WUTL
I hope your son has a good adult male that will build him up. 
He sounds like a very good boy and he will need a positive adult male to build him up
I know that you are a good mother but it helps to have a positive male role model for your son also.

Your husband is a rastrillo. In Spanish that means a rake.
A rake only brings things into itself but does not give out anything
Your husband is also a loon!


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## deejov

Waking Up to Life,
I hope things go well for you on Friday.
I get some comfort from reading your posts, in the sense that I see you moving forward with your life.

For some reason, I have the feeling your husband won't freak out. More like not even believe what you are saying, and act like you "will be back tomorrow". Not sure why. But that's my read on it. I hope I'm right, and you are long gone before he realizes you are not bluffing.
Stay strong,


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## MsStacy

I thought I'd check in and see how you are doing. Is tomorrow still the plan? I hope, as the previous poster said, your H will be stunned and not make it more difficult than it already is. Lots of prayers and best wishes for you WUTL.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Waking up to life

Yes, tomorrow is the big day. My face is drained of all color...my heart is racing...I have a rock in my stomach and a lump in my throat. 

I'm so sad...I thought I had grieved for the failing of my marriage plenty in the past few months. Today, I'm feeling like a monster, a failure, a selfish piece of crap for what I'm about to do. I know he will say he had no idea it had come to this. He will be angry that I didn't give him more notice. He'll be furious that I "sneaked" around and got myself an apartment already. He'll say I'm ruining his life. 

I'm not sad because I don't want the marriage to end...I do. I have made that decision and I'm sure of it. I just feel sad that I'm giving up on everything that my entire adult life has been. I'm sad that I have to cause so much hurt in order to find my own happiness. 

I have never been good about speaking up for myself when I'm feeling hurt or let down. In recent months, I have tried to be more vocal about my feelings and needs...and as always, he has shut me down, told me I shouldn't feel that way, told me I'm choosing not to be happy, told me I just don't appreciate the good things I have in life. So I shut back down...now tomorrow, I will speak up for myself in the most drastic way imaginable. He's not used to me taking such strong actions to get what I want when it's not what he wants. He WILL be shocked, hurt, and angry. I will be the bad guy...but that's how it has to be, because he won't do anything but bury his head in the sand. 

I just hope I can find a place of peace within my mind as I'm dropping that bomb. I can honestly say there is NOTHING I have dreaded more that this in my life.


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## Faithful Wife

Hang in there...it won't be easy and you know that...sorry you have to go through this. It sucks. Been there.


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## Uptown

Waking, best of luck tomorrow! Our thoughts and prayers will be with you.


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## JustSomeGuyWho

I just read your last post and my stomach is getting upset in sympathy. I think I aged several years in the days lead up to and including my big day. I don't think there is anything I could say or do to make it better but I wish I could. You commented that you are giving up on everything your adult life has been ... I think what I admire is that you are not giving up on you and that is what is most important.


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## Theseus

WUTL,

Just to let you know that even some people (like me) who don't comment in your threads, still follow them. I think the petty aggravations that you have to deal with on a daily basis would drive anyone nuts. He doesn't seem to be a bad guy, but rather an wildly insecure one.

Because of that, my own advice after you move out is to give him one more chance at a reconciliation, if he goes to MC and IC and actually makes a serious effort at it. I know he's attempted this before, but the difference now is that instead of you trying to drag him to MC or IC, the burden would be entirely on him to actually do it and follow through with it. The pressure would be on him to get it done, if he's serious that he want reconciliation.

But that's just my 2 cents, and that's all I'll say except good luck.


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## Waking up to life

Theseus said:


> WUTL,
> 
> Just to let you know that even some people (like me) who don't comment in your threads, still follow them. I think the petty aggravations that you have to deal with on a daily basis would drive anyone nuts. He doesn't seem to be a bad guy, but rather an wildly insecure one.
> 
> Because of that, my own advice after you move out is to give him one more chance at a reconciliation, if he goes to MC and IC and actually makes a serious effort at it. I know he's attempted this before, but the difference now is that instead of you trying to drag him to MC or IC, the burden would be entirely on him to actually do it and follow through with it. The pressure would be on him to get it done, if he's serious that he want reconciliation.
> 
> But that's just my 2 cents, and that's all I'll say except good luck.


I appreciate your input. However, perhaps I have misrepresented our problems by being so descriptive of them that they seem to be nothing more than petty aggravations. I would hardly consider my H threatening my son that he'd 'beat the living sh*t out of him' if he accidentally hit our cars with the law mower (which he's never done or even come close) a petty aggravation. Or telling me to "knock it off and get over myself" when I tried to explain why I wanted us to go to MC, and that I have nothing to be upset about, that I'm choosing to be unhappy. Telling me I'm never allowed to talk to him about anything I'm upset about that he's done to upset me that happened more than one week ago, but if I try to bring it up right away, I'm being too sensitive and need to learn that "everyone has a bad day". There is so much more going on than I can properly describe. He doesn't value me for ME, only for what I can do to meet his needs. If I fail in any way, I'm lazy, inconsiderate, selfish, dumb, or whatever. So even if he said he would go to MC, he'd only be doing it to get his way and get me back...and the mind games and manipulation would continue. I just feel I'm to the point of losing touch with my own self...everything I think and do, I've been programmed to think 'what will he say? How with he react? What would he want?' What I want isn't even a consideration. That's no way to live. My hope is that he'll really look at himself and get the help with his mental illness I've been trying to get him to do for years...maybe someday he'll get to the point where he'll drag himself out of his self-pity, depression, and negativity and find a new partner whom he can be happy with. I've waited patiently for 19 years to have the marriage I've worked so hard to have, and it's not happening. I just can't give any more of myself and my life than I have.


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## 3Xnocharm

She doesnt WANT reconciliation.

Waking, I am flashing back reading your post, like I am right there with you. My first ex had some real anger issues, so my stress was just...beyond words. 

Maybe once he gets past his initial shock, your leaving may be a good thing for him. He will be responsible for himself for the first time in decades, and maybe he will step up. He may not realize he can walk until his crutch is pulled out from underneath him. 

I wish you the best, you are for sure in my thoughts. Do post when you can.


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## JustSomeGuyWho

3Xnocharm said:


> She doesnt WANT reconciliation.
> 
> Waking, I am flashing back reading your post, like I am right there with you. My first ex had some real anger issues, so my stress was just...beyond words.
> 
> Maybe once he gets past his initial shock, your leaving may be a good thing for him. He will be responsible for himself for the first time in decades, and maybe he will step up. He may not realize he can walk until his crutch is pulled out from underneath him.
> 
> I wish you the best, you are for sure in my thoughts. Do post when you can.


Exactly


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## Lyris

I don't think I've commented before, but I've been following, and I really hope today goes as well as can be expected. I'm so glad you're getting out.


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## Theseus

Waking up to life said:


> I appreciate your input. However, perhaps I have misrepresented our problems by being so descriptive of them that they seem to be nothing more than petty aggravations. I would hardly consider my H threatening my son that he'd 'beat the living sh*t out of him' if he accidentally hit our cars with the law mower (which he's never done or even come close) a petty aggravation.


You misunderstand me. I meant what he was doing was petty in getting so worked up over the smallest things. I assure you I am fully sympathetic to your situation. Good luck.


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## Waking up to life

Theseus said:


> You misunderstand me. I meant what he was doing was petty in getting so worked up over the smallest things. I assure you I am fully sympathetic to your situation. Good luck.


I understand what you are saying. I apologize for coming off defensive about your comment. I do appreciate everyone on TAM who have followed my story and have offered their input and support. Emotions are just running high right now. I'll keep you all posted. 

Sometimes I wonder if people on TAM get sick of hearing about my problems. But knowing how I have felt for the last many months, my only hope is that others in the future who find themselves in a similar situation might find some comfort, hope, or direction in reading my story. I've learned a lot from other TAM members as well and will be forever indebted to the support I've received here.


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## Holland

Waking, keep writing as it is cathartic. If anyone is sick of hearing it they can stop reading, simple.

As always, sending you lots of positive vibes.


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## jd08

Good luck today. Followed your story from the beginning and I'm glad you are moving on to a better life for yourself and your son. Please be safe today.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Red2

It is 8:15 am and I am here instead of getting my kid ready for school... It is almost like I am the one instead of WUTL to have a huge day in my marriage. Thinking of you, WUTL... When you get the chance, let us know what happened. Lots of hugs coming your way...


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## diwali123

How did it go?


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## JustSomeGuyWho

diwali123 said:


> How did it go?


It's not happening until later today when her husband gets home ...


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## diwali123

Oh sorry.


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## Waking up to life

I'm an emotional wreck. I'm at my apartment trying to get some things put together. I keep looking at the clock thinking about how many hours left until I drop the bomb. To top it off, he just texted me saying "Hope you're having a good day! I love you!" I haven't responded. I want to say, "actually, there's something I need to talk to you about tonight" but it will undo him if I do that. I just want all of this to GO AWAY. This is the awfullest feeling in the world, and it makes me think, if this is the right thing to do, why do I feel such dread and sadness about it? Ugh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## A Bit Much

You can do it. You'll find in the moment you'll have more strength then you realize. It's akin to that person that can lift a truck off of another person in a crisis. 

You're doing this for you and your son. You owe no apologies for saving yourself, or him. I'm sending you good vibes and wish you a great holiday weekend of PEACE.


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## deejov

I dunno, I was thinking that you were getting your own space, and you would be able to consider talking to him about things. From your own apartment. After things settle down for awhile.
Am I wrong about that?


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## 3Xnocharm

Waking up to life said:


> I'm an emotional wreck. I'm at my apartment trying to get some things put together. I keep looking at the clock thinking about how many hours left until I drop the bomb. To top it off, he just texted me saying "Hope you're having a good day! I love you!" I haven't responded. I want to say, "actually, there's something I need to talk to you about tonight" but it will undo him if I do that. I just want all of this to GO AWAY. This is the awfullest feeling in the world, and it makes me think, if this is the right thing to do, why do I feel such dread and sadness about it? Ugh.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You feel this way because you are human. You have a good heart and had the best intentions for your marriage. You'll be through this soon and will feel like a new person.


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## diwali123

It's hard because it's so huge. You didn't think your life would be this way. And you have no idea what his reaction will be.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser

Waking up to life said:


> Yes, tomorrow is the big day. My face is drained of all color...my heart is racing...I have a rock in my stomach and a lump in my throat.
> 
> I'm so sad...I thought I had grieved for the failing of my marriage plenty in the past few months. Today, I'm feeling like a monster, a failure, a selfish piece of crap for what I'm about to do. I know he will say he had no idea it had come to this. He will be angry that I didn't give him more notice. He'll be furious that I "sneaked" around and got myself an apartment already. He'll say I'm ruining his life.
> 
> I'm not sad because I don't want the marriage to end...I do. I have made that decision and I'm sure of it. I just feel sad that I'm giving up on everything that my entire adult life has been. I'm sad that I have to cause so much hurt in order to find my own happiness.
> 
> I have never been good about speaking up for myself when I'm feeling hurt or let down. In recent months, I have tried to be more vocal about my feelings and needs...and as always, he has shut me down, told me I shouldn't feel that way, told me I'm choosing not to be happy, told me I just don't appreciate the good things I have in life. So I shut back down...now tomorrow, I will speak up for myself in the most drastic way imaginable. He's not used to me taking such strong actions to get what I want when it's not what he wants. He WILL be shocked, hurt, and angry. I will be the bad guy...but that's how it has to be, because he won't do anything but bury his head in the sand.
> 
> I just hope I can find a place of peace within my mind as I'm dropping that bomb. I can honestly say there is NOTHING I have dreaded more that this in my life.


Hang in there, WUTL!

You *KNOW* he doesn't deal in 'reality'...only HIS version of it it (I sense you resent my buying tires, I believe you're angry I own a nice car, blah...blah...blah).

SO...if *HE* makes you out to be 'the bad guy', the angry bytch, the RUINER of other people's lives....well, that's just him, again, dealing in HIS own version of 'reality'. It doesn't make it true; we know what you've been going through...some of us know more fully than others!

Would LOVE to see a post on here TONIGHT from your new apartment!

*hugs*
SGW


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## Mavash.

I'm guessing he will not even hear you. He'll put his head in the sand and ask you what's for dinner.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser

Waking up to life said:


> *Sometimes I wonder if people on TAM get sick of hearing about my problems.* But knowing how I have felt for the last many months, my only hope is that others in the future who find themselves in a similar situation might find some comfort, hope, or direction in reading my story. I've learned a lot from other TAM members as well and will be forever indebted to the support I've received here.


I can only speak or MYSELF and I know that I am NEVER tired of hearing from another TAM member who is making progress in his/her life! You are making informed choices, seeking counseling, reading books on self-improvement...you're making ALL the right moves, honey! AND, you're doing it for YOURSELF and for your SON. There ARE no nobler motives!

YOU only have one life! I never advise someone to stay in a relationship they CHOSE at 20yo if it is NOT right for them NOW. That's just me! Your SON only has ONE LIFE, one childhood, and one shot at learning to be a MAN in a healthy relationship. You are concerned enough to do the RIGHT THINGS for both of you!

I will NEVER tire of reading and supporting THAT!

*hugs to you both*
SGW


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## soccermom2three

WUTL, I've never commented on your threads but have followed them. I've been thinking of you today. You are so very strong and brave. Sending you good vibes and hugs your way.


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## bailingout

Best of luck to you today WUTL. The dread and sadness you feel today is guilt, you know that. It'll be tough, but you can do it. 

Stay strong and stay focused. Most of all, be careful please.


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## JustSomeGuyWho

Waking, be strong and be careful. My thoughts are with you. It will soon be done and tomorrow will be the start of a great new life for you.


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## MsStacy

I've been thinking of you all day. I hoe you're doing well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Waking up to life

So...I told him. He was absolutely shocked. He thought things were getting better. We talked a long time, and he begged me to please stay and keep working on things. He said he sees now how he made me feel disrespected and not important. He said some of the kindest and heartfelt things to me. He asked what I wanted to do if I thought I wanted to divorce. I said get an apartment. He begged me not to go...and I failed and didn't tell him I already had one. I told him I needed to go for a drive to think. I'm at the apartment now. And I'm feeling like WTF have I done? I didn't do it right...I didn't just say I want a divorce and I'm leaving. So now I have to go back and spill the rest of the story. And I'm thinking what if I made the wrong decision? And now I've locked myself into an apartment lease for a year. Oh god I want to die.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustSomeGuyWho

Waking up to life said:


> So...I told him. He was absolutely shocked. He thought things were getting better. We talked a long time, and he begged me to please stay and keep working on things. He said he sees now how he made me feel disrespected and not important. He said some of the kindest and heartfelt things to me. He asked what I wanted to do if I thought I wanted to divorce. I said get an apartment. He begged me not to go...and I failed and didn't tell him I already had one. I told him I needed to go for a drive to think. I'm at the apartment now. And I'm feeling like WTF have I done? I didn't do it right...I didn't just say I want a divorce and I'm leaving. So now I have to go back and spill the rest of the story. And I'm thinking what if I made the wrong decision? And now I've locked myself into an apartment lease for a year. Oh god I want to die.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok, take a deep breath. You are a kind-hearted person and I know this is really difficult BUT what is going to change if you stay in the home? Is it really going to change or is he desperate to say anything to keep you? Did you have a difficult time because he was so hurt or was it because you realized that you will be happier with him?

Don't worry about the apartment right now. Things can get worked out. What do you really want?

Wow, I'm really sorry you are having such a difficult time.


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## Mavash.

I've told you all along and so has your counselor that a separation is the best thing you could do to work on your codependency. Just because you've got an apartment doesn't mean you have to file immediately. Take it one step at a time.


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## Prodigal

Waking up to life said:


> He said some of the kindest and heartfelt things to me.
> 
> He begged me not to go... I'm at the apartment now. And I'm feeling like WTF have I done? I didn't do it right...I didn't just say I want a divorce and I'm leaving. So now I have to go back and spill the rest of the story. And I'm thinking what if I made the wrong decision? And now I've locked myself into an apartment lease for a year. Oh god I want to die.


Waking up, I want you to listen to the poster child for codependency. I kinda figured this was the way things would play out. Granted, I'm not married to someone who is possibly BPD, but I'm married to an alcoholic. Either way, they are masters at the game.

And they hook us in over and over and over....

This is about you. Not about him. YOU. Calm down. Can you call your counselor's answering service? You need to speak to someone who can get you into a calmer frame of mind.

You are looking at your own demons right now. Not his. You are not going to die from this.

The entire reason for you leaving was so you can live, not die.

Please consider this: You are listening to a sick man who relies on your enabling. He is losing his enabler. He will do or say whatever he has to in order to pull you back in.

Now is the time you need to lovingly detach. For him. For you. For your son.

You are in panic-mode. Please just tell him how it is. Then walk out the door. Go no-contact for the weekend. You need time to focus on you and your son.

Please. Do this for you. PLEASE.


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## MsStacy

I totally understand how hard this is. You are not filing for divorce or signing papers today, you are simply standing up for yourself and your son. Read back through your thread here. Remind yourself how freeing it was to stand in that empty apartment for the first time. You can do this. You deserve the peace.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deejov

Waking... you have the best possible scenario right now.

You have the chance to go somewhere else, and deal with your marriage with perspective. Not walk away from it and never deal with it again. 

It's a first step. Not the last. 

Sometimes, the perspective allows you both to come together in a healthier way. Sometimes it means you decide not to see each other anymore. Trust it will work out. Peace.


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## 3Xnocharm

You didnt make the wrong decision. Prodigal is right, he is upset because he is losing his enabler. If you tell him about your apartment, that will hit home for him that this is really happening, it shows something solid. You KNOW he isnt going to change, not long term, anyway. You could stay, and withing 2 months, you will be right back in the old pattern. You're ok. You are going to be able to do this.


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## diwali123

Of course he begged. He doesnt want to change. He doesn't want to work on the marriage. He just doesn't want to get divorced and pay child support. 
He doesn't want to lose his cozy life style. He doesn't want to change and he will say anything to keep you. 
You did great. If it happens in steps so be it.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser

WUTL:

You're used to putting EVERYONE before yourself...hubby, son, parents (?)...so OF COURSE you're going to feel SELFISH and MEAN for thinking of WUTL and son WITHOUT putting H first. Your first thought for the last TWENTY YEARS has been, 'What will H think of this?'

You are not WRONG to say, 'What *I* want is important. What *I* think is important. What *I* need is important. What Son thinks/wants/needs/feels is important, too!' It's not MORE important than H's wishes, but AS IMPORTANT as H's wishes. 

Living in the house with H means that YOUR wishes/needs/thoughts/wants and those of your SON are NOT BEING HEARD. They are NOT BEING ADDRESSED. They are NOT BEING ACKNOWLEDGED.

Demanding that you two be treated as IMPORTANT, RESPONSIBLE, LOVABLE, WORTHWHILE people is NOT being SELFISH!!!! It is being SANE! And RESPONSIBLE. And ADULT. And HEALTHY.

As coffee4me so wisely pointed out, if your H is SERIOUS about FIXING HIMSELF and BEHAVING BETTER AND MORE APPROPRIATELY, then he will take the separation SERIOUSLY and IMMEDIATELY BEGIN working on mending his ways and fixing his faults. He will make IMMEDIATE and PERMANENT changes in his behavior that can be measured BY YOU in 6 months! If he has NOT made PERMANENT positive improvements to his behavior (not saying he'll have fixed EVERYTHING, but he should have made SUBSTANTIAL PROGRESS) within 6 months of you walking out....then there's your answer! He will have NO INTENTION of making any changes/improvements to himself and YOU will not feel guilty about filing for divorce at that point. 

His actions will SHOW whether he is SERIOUS about "understanding" how poorly he has behaved!

Remember: Words are WORTHLESS! Action is EVERYTHING!

Manipulators LIE to get what they want. If he's SERIOUS about change, then he'll change. Otherwise he's just blowing smoke.


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## memyselfandi

Good for you that you made an appointment with a counselor. Sounds like your husband has been in denial and afraid of the two of you talking about the bad things in your relationship.

I think he'll be surprised since when couples go to counseling..they not only talk about the things that pull each other apart from their relationship...BUT in addition...talk about the good things that have made you a couple.

He may be very surprised when you tell him all the reasons you love him..while he tells you the reasons he loves you. Counselors build from that and then take on the reasons why different things are pulling your love apart.

Tell him he has no choice...it's either counseling or his "blankie" and if he wants to bring it with him into counseling..he's more than welcome...(as you call him 'Linus" and your counselor charges more than a nickel and her name isn't Lucy...")


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## notperfectanymore

Oh hun...big hugz! You ARE doing the right thing and you CAN do this. I know all too well what BPD peeps can do to your head...get right in there and make it all about them...and they are SOOO good at it...

Free yourself, and your son, slowly. Like the others said, you don't have to file right now. One step at a time. Read thru some of your old posts, come back here, take deep breaths...we are here for you


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## SlowlyGettingWiser

Let us know how you're doing, WUTL!

Even if you don't think WE'LL like it! Even if you don't think YOU'LL like it.

We're HERE FOR YOU! One step at a time; sometimes you have to STOP or go BACK to go forward! We're STILL GONNA BE HERE! There is no agenda for you to do it "OUR" way! Our way is WHATEVER YOU and your SON NEED!!!!

Talk to your parents (they already know you're splitting).
Talk to your siblings.
Talk to friends you've known for at least 5 years.
Gather strength from THEIR knowledge of you, H, son, the dynamics!

We'll be RIGHT HERE when you need us...or PM us!

*hugs*
SGW


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## Waking up to life

I'm ok. Haven't totally moved yet. Husband is devastated. But he is not angry or hateful. He's being as supportive as he can. It's so hard to see him sob. We haven't told our son yet, but will tonight. Don't have much time now but I'll try to update more tomorrow. Thank you to everyone for the support and concern. This is the hardest thing I've ever been through in my life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Prodigal

Waking, I was just thinking about you. I know this is awful. To see your husband sobbing ... well, all I can tell you is I've been there. I'm praying for you. Come back when you feel up to it.


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## Waking up to life

Just told our son. He's very angry. He doesn't understand why I need to leave. He thinks our marriage is fine and there are people out there with a lot bigger problems. He doesn't want us to split. That's all he can say. This is so hard...seeing my H crying and my son staring at the floor clenching his fists. All I could think was 'what kind of selfish b*tch am I to put my happiness over my H and son's?' It would be easy to say never mind, I won't leave. It would make them happy. I don't know how to cope with all of the emotions simultaneously. I just feel like I've let my son down in a huge way. I'm so, so sad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustSomeGuyWho

Waking up to life said:


> Just told our son. He's very angry. He doesn't understand why I need to leave. He thinks our marriage is fine and there are people out there with a lot bigger problems. He doesn't want us to split. That's all he can say. This is so hard...seeing my H crying and my son staring at the floor clenching his fists. All I could think was 'what kind of selfish b*tch am I to put my happiness over my H and son's?' It would be easy to say never mind, I won't leave. It would make them happy. I don't know how to cope with all of the emotions simultaneously. I just feel like I've let my son down in a huge way. I'm so, so sad.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Waking, I sent you a PM. I know this is very difficult and you're in my thoughts.


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## Openminded

Waking up to life said:


> Just told our son. He's very angry. He doesn't understand why I need to leave. He thinks our marriage is fine and there are people out there with a lot bigger problems. He doesn't want us to split. That's all he can say. This is so hard...seeing my H crying and my son staring at the floor clenching his fists. All I could think was 'what kind of selfish b*tch am I to put my happiness over my H and son's?' It would be easy to say never mind, I won't leave. It would make them happy. I don't know how to cope with all of the emotions simultaneously. I just feel like I've let my son down in a huge way. I'm so, so sad.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There are few children who are happy about their parents splitting up. 

It's never a good idea to live your life for other people without regard for your own feelings. It doesn't work well in the end.


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## Waking up to life

I haven't moved out yet...I wanted to give some time for things to soak in for my son. He seems to be coming around a bit, at least talking to me and laughed. H is an emotional wreck. He's being very supportive and keeps asking if I want to take this or that to my apt. He cries a lot, and asked me if there's any chance I might love him again. He wants me to let him move into the apt with me someday. All I can say is I don't know, I need time away to sort out my feelings. This is not how I planned it...I was going to announce then move out and file for divorce. Now it's become more like a separation and I just can't promise I won't decide to divorce. I know as hard as it is, I need to get away and let him work out his sadness for himself. The more I'm here, the more I feel like I'm once again supporting both of us emotionally. I hope things will start feeling better when I'm in my apt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Theseus

Waking up to life said:


> I haven't moved out yet...I wanted to give some time for things to soak in for my son. He seems to be coming around a bit, at least talking to me and laughed.


Maybe he's starting to realize that it's not a good idea to force you to stay in a situation where you are not happy.



> H is an emotional wreck. He's being very supportive and keeps asking if I want to take this or that to my apt. He cries a lot, and asked me if there's any chance I might love him again. He wants me to let him move into the apt with me someday.


I think your husband doesn't quite grasp the concept here...



> All I can say is I don't know, I need time away to sort out my feelings. This is not how I planned it...I was going to announce then move out and file for divorce. Now it's become more like a separation


Maybe separation is for the best. These things are never written in stone, and things might even change for the better in the long run.


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## tryingtobebetter

Theseus said:


> Maybe he's starting to realize that it's not a good idea to force you to stay in a situation where you are not happy.
> 
> 
> 
> I think your husband doesn't quite grasp the concept here...
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe separation is for the best. These things are never written in stone, and things might even change for the better in the long run.


:iagree:

One step at a time is often a good policy.

Best wishes for your future happiness whatever happens.


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## diwali123

It's very hard to move on when a manipulator is involved. Keep in mind a lot this is theatrics meant to keep you in status quo and question your decision. 
Once you are moved out and you don't have to witness his emotions all the time it will be easier to see what is best for you.


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## Paradise

Of course your husband doesn't understand and grasp it all yet. To be honest, I don't think you do either. I wish I had been given a chance at separation and then having a chance to fix some things because to be honest I changed so much after the smoke finally cleared and I was back to being my wonderful self. My ex decided to end it by having an affair and had her new life lined out before she left, which left me with a ton of debt and the emotional fallout. 

Move out for a while. You are struggling to make sense of this yourself. There is no need to rush into a divorce. You just never know, your husband may decide to get his own life straight after this 2 x 4 upside the head. But, it will take him some time. 

And, you may not need that amount of time. You may get away and then realize that you do not want to go back. Too many variables here.


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## Waking up to life

I'm at my apt waiting for my mattress to be delivered. I'm not staying the night here yet. I need to be home with our son for a couple of days to let him know I love him and I'm not abandoning him. He's not talking to me much. I may have mistaken his earlier chatting and laughing with me for him directing it at my H, since we were both talking to him. I'd like to offer to show him the apt tonight or tomorrow, because I want him to know its for him too, if he wants to be with me. But I don't think he wants to see it, because he doesn't want to show approval for anything related to this. 

My H asked me to please not remove my check deposit from our checking acct. Since he had no warning of this, he's afraid of not being able to pay the bills that are automatically drafted from the acct. Many of them are joint bills, like insurance for our cars, our phone bill, etc. He says I can keep using the acct like I always have to pay my rent, groceries, etc. A friend of mine I talked to says this is a bad idea and says it could just be manipulation. But I can understand it from my Hs standpoint too...when you have monthly recurring bills and suddenly more than half of your income just stops with no notice, that could be bad. Maybe I'll give him a couple of months to work out a budget, then figure out how to split up the bills between us. I don't like the idea of living apart but having a joint acct, because it takes away some of the independence I wanted to gain from this. Ugh. I think I have too many people telling me what I should do or think, I can't even think for myself. I don't mean TAM people, but my friends and my family and H and son.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## diwali123

How old is your son? Do you think you might end up paying your stbx child support?


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## Waking up to life

He's 15. And I make more money than my H so yes it's possible. That's why I need to take the finances one step at a time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## diwali123

Is he closer with your h than you?


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## Waking up to life

No, he's always been closer to me. But my H has done better in last year or so in trying to be more involved. But whenever my son has something to tell us that he thinks we might be upset about, he always tells me privately when H isn't within earshot. He knows he can talk to me about anything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## diwali123

So I would say right up front to him that you aren't leaving him and he is going to spend at least half his time with you.


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## Uptown

Waking up to life said:


> I think I have too many people telling me what I should do or think, I can't even think for myself. I don't mean TAM people, but my friends and my family and H and son.


Waking, I'm sorry that I've been absent from the TAM group giving you advice in the last two days. I've remained silent since your "announcement day" because I don't have a clue as to what to advise you. Granted, based on what you've said previously, I am glad that you are leaving -- the very action I should have taken much earlier in my toxic marriage.

Yet, because I don't know either your H or your 15 year-old son, I realize that you are the only person with the information needed to make important judgment calls. I therefore will make only two observations. 

First, I note that it is truly painful to simply READ about what you're going through. I cannot even imagine how painful it must be for you. And, second, I note that despite how wonderful and understanding your H is behaving now, you are not out of danger if -- as you suspect -- he has strong BPD traits. As you already know so well, an unstable person can completely change his behavior in ten seconds. So please be very careful. Meanwhile, you and your family are in my thoughts and prayers.


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## diwali123

Yes especially once he realized you really are going. I don't know how severe he is but there is the possibility of suicide threats, destruction of personal items, etc. 
Don't be afraid to call 911 if need be.


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## Waking up to life

So far he's been doing ok. It was nice to get away to my apt today for about 6 hours where I could work on putting together my furniture and just think without having to look at his sad face. I'm not cold and heartless and I do care about the hurt I've caused him. But it does me no good to be around him when he's mopey and sad. I can't comfort him the way he would want, so it's awkward. For once in our marriage though, he's actually thinking about taking action himself, like selling our house (trailer but on a nice piece of private land). I do think that in the end, no matter whether we stay married or divorce, he will be better off...learning to do things himself without total dependence on me, not being stuck in the same old rut as he's been for many years. Time will tell. I just need to get to a place where I don't feel totally responsible for his emotional needs anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3Xnocharm

So now you are thinking of not divorcing?? Dont let him do that to you. ALSO, and this is important...if divorce is what you want, DO NOT leave letting him believe that you are only separating! Divorce is what you want, so you NEED to TELL HIM THAT. I watched my ex husband go through this when his second wife divorced him. I knew it was coming because she and I used to confide in each other, and she was divorcing him. BUT, she was afraid of him, and was freaked out about hurting him, so instead of being honest, she moved out, and was telling him that they could go to counseling and work on things. She filed for divorce instead, and he still isnt over it, 5 years later. SO...you need to stop tippy toeing around him, and let him know where your heart and mind really are, or you are going to destroy him when he figures it out.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser

Waking up to life said:


> But I can understand it from my Hs standpoint too...when you have monthly recurring bills and suddenly more than half of your income just stops with no notice, that could be bad. *Maybe I'll give him a couple of months to work out a budget, then figure out how to split up the bills between us. *I don't like the idea of living apart but having a joint acct, because it takes away some of the independence I wanted to gain from this. _Posted via Mobile Device_


*ONE MONTH!* He either MANS up and makes this a PRIORITY to be fixed, or he doesn't; not YOUR problem. 

You need to START "REQUIRING" more of him. He needs to start requiring more of himself. STARTING NOW!

I think your son fears the unknown. When he knows you're in his life to stay, when he sees you are happier and more peaceful, I think he will come around. He needs to feel what YOU felt in that apt. And, he needs to *KNOW* that there's a place for him THERE!

*hugs*


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## Waking up to life

I'm thinking that I need time to think, to be my own person, to make my own decisions. Once I feel strong as an independent person, I will be able to sort out my own feelings vs his feelings vs what I "should" be feeling. I'm not intentionally leading him on. I'm saying I need time to decide how I truly feel and I'm not making any promises. I'm doing the best I can at navigating through all of the emotional turmoil right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3Xnocharm

I understand your emotional turmoil, and I'm sorry this has been so hard. BUT you must keep in mind.. if you take some months, and gain strength being independent, going back takes that away from you because your H will go right back into the old, familiar patterns, and you will once again be his crutch and his enabler. I dont think you are leading him on, but you ARE misleading him at this point, well intentioned as it may be. You are still more worried about how he feels instead of how YOU feel.


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## Paradise

Guess I don't quite agree with many of the posters on this one! I don't know you nor your hubby. Many men are very stubborn and sometimes it does take a major set-back to begin bettering ourselves. He's expecting the sad face right now is a way to get you to come back. When he realizes this isn't working he has a choice to make. He'll either become angry and bitter or he can make the choice to better himself. 

If you truly begin bettering yourself and working on you and your hubby does the same then I will applaud both of you. If he chooses to stay stuck then it is completely on him and you will know by then it is time to divorce. 

I really don't see anything right now that you are doing is wrong. I think you are really scared and confused. I'm not going to sit here and try to give you advice on what you should do because it certainly sounds like you are getting advice from many sides. There are no set procedures to follow when you are dealing with the lives and emotions of so many people. You do what you think you should and you live with your decisions. 

I wish you the best. I also wish your husband and your son the best.


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## JustSomeGuyWho

Paradise said:


> Guess I don't quite agree with many of the posters on this one! I don't know you nor your hubby. Many men are very stubborn and sometimes it does take a major set-back to begin bettering ourselves. He's expecting the sad face right now is a way to get you to come back. When he realizes this isn't working he has a choice to make. He'll either become angry and bitter or he can make the choice to better himself.
> 
> If you truly begin bettering yourself and working on you and your hubby does the same then I will applaud both of you. If he chooses to stay stuck then it is completely on him and you will know by then it is time to divorce.
> 
> I really don't see anything right now that you are doing is wrong. I think you are really scared and confused. I'm not going to sit here and try to give you advice on what you should do because it certainly sounds like you are getting advice from many sides. There are no set procedures to follow when you are dealing with the lives and emotions of so many people. You do what you think you should and you live with your decisions.
> 
> I wish you the best. I also wish your husband and your son the best.


Yes, he may be genuinely sad BUT he may also have hope that this will work on you ... that he can convince you to change your mind because "look at what you've done to me". That sounds possible from your description of him. I hope that he does not attempt to manipulate your son this way, even if it is unintentional and just within the nature of his emotional problems.

*When he realizes this isn't working he has a choice to make. He'll either become angry and bitter or he can make the choice to better himself. 
* 

I agree, these are the choices he has. I hope it is the latter no matter what you ultimately decide.

I sense that you are in a slightly better place. I think you are doing the right things. I also wish all of you the best.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser

I would have to disagree with 3Xnocharm in that RIGHT NOW, moving out is ALL *YOU* can handle. So do the ONE STEP that needs to be done NOW...move out.

The next step (ONE STEP only) will be the financial disentanglement. Give him and yourself a VERY LIMITED timeframe in which to adjust/fix/settle the new financial set-up. Not months.....weeks. 

go through the bills
decide how to split them
mark which ones are automatic withdrawals
present YOUR decision to your H as a "done-deal"
see if he has ANY objections or can see any bills you've missed or any discrepancy in the fair allocation of the bills then 
DO IT. Arrange YOURSELF to have YOUR name removed from bills that are no longer yours, and YOUR new bank account assigned as the withdrawal account for your bills.
The time to discuss DIVORCE is down the line. When *YOU* feel stronger. When *YOU* feel independent. When *YOU* feel it is what you want. When *YOU* feel it is in *your* best interest. Because 3Xnocharm's husband felt 'led-on' or 'blindsided' does NOT mean that is how YOUR situation will play out. As long as you do NOT dangle the carrot of 'reconciliation', then you are being honest.

If your h asks if you can get back together IN THE FUTURE, tell him the truth: either "NO" or "I don't know, I'm not promising ANYTHING". You can also tell him, "I will not have this conversation again for at least X months. I want to see how *I* feel about things after I've had a chance to adjust to my new situation." I, personally, don't think you should tell him that you want/expect/need him to STEP UP and start acting more like an adult. I think *THAT* realization should come from him! If HE himself doesn't see the value of manning-up, then I would not believe it would be a SINCERE change done with a proper spirit and may not "last" in the long-run. (Just my opinion.)

It *IS* overwhelming if you're trying to solve ALL problems and make ALL decisions at once. You only need to take ONE STEP at a time. I KNOW that 90-180 days ON YOUR OWN in your own apartment will give you a MUCH DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE than you have RIGHT NOW! Your thinking/choices will be clearer, and you will KNOW what you want to do. I don't pretend to know what that is, and you won't either until you're there!

*hugs*


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## diwali123

I agree about the looking devastated as manipulation. That's what my BPD ex did. He claimed he was just so in love with me and would cry his heart out and sob and then refuse to take our D on his nights because he was "too distraught."
I'm pretty sure he was lying because he jumped into a LTR within months. 

Do you know anyone who has truly had their heart broken who can even think about dating within months? 

It was an Oscar worthy performance but his actions from the past showed me that he really didn't love me. He just didn't want to be alone. And he solved that problem quickly. 

I think your h will be just fine.


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## Mr Blunt

> I'm thinking that I need time to think, to be my own person, to make my own decisions. Once I feel strong as an independent person, I will be able to sort out my own feelings vs his feelings vs what I "should" be feeling. I'm not intentionally leading him on. I'm saying I need time to decide how I truly feel and I'm not making any promises. I'm doing the best I can at navigating through all of the emotional turmoil right now.
> Posted via Mobile Device


WUTL
At this point I think you are right on the money. Keep working on yourself to get stronger; two weak people do not make for a good team.

You do not have to make any more big decisions right now. As I have said in an earlier post, if this situation is handled correctly you both will come out better. According to your posts something had to change; you could not continue with the current arrangements.


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## bfree

I've read this thread. Admittedly I don't know much more of the backstory. I really hesitated to post here. Not because I fear getting flamed. I honestly couldn't care less. But because I don't want to derail a course of action without all the facts. But I'm going to say what has been on my mind all day. I think moving out is a huge mistake. Unless there is a lot more going on that I'm not aware of I don't see any insurmountable obstacles to this marriage being fixed and continuing in a more healthy way. But I am adamant when I say that these problems cannot be addressed living apart. I also blanch tremendously when I read people talking about codependency. The codependency trend in therapy has caused more salvageable marriages to end than any other factor. The fact is that when you are married you have to be somewhat codependent in order to have a healthy marriage. Breaking codependency is fine if your goal is to remain single and never enter into any long term relationships. But its original intent was to help family members of those that were involved in addictive behaviors. Any application other than that is detrimental to all relationships. Individual counselors have a tendency to push the codependency therapy onto patients because it does make them stronger individuals. However, it has also proven to prevent those same individuals from having healthy long term relationships because it stresses the self so much that there is no room for anyone else, spouse included. But because it makes the patient feel better about themselves it is often used as a panacea for those engaged in IC. Frankly, I consider it toxic to anyone who wants to have a healthy LTS now or in the future. The world is full of those who have been "successfully" treated for codependency and you can find them all on Match.com or some other dating site.

Ok, I've said my peace. You can all go back to praising the OP for her decision.


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## 3Xnocharm

Bfree, you should probably read her other threads here that have led up to this one. She has not come to this decision lightly.


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## bfree

3Xnocharm said:


> Bfree, you should probably read her other threads here that have led up to this one. She has not come to this decision lightly.


When I have time I will and if anyone wants to be so kind as to point me in the general direction I will endeavor to do that this evening. But IMO unless there is ongoing infidelity, ongoing physical abuse, or ongoing substance abuse I don't think ending the marriage is the answer. And I have even seen in many cases where there was abuse and/or infidelity the marriage has been fixed and been made stronger. And marital problems cannot be addressed if the spouses aren't together. Now I can see that sometimes a legal separation is advisable for a specific time period but NOT the way this has been handled. To me this has all the earmarks of a walk away wife situation and those almost never end well for the wife in question.


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## Mavash.

Bfree you have no idea....


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## bfree

Mavash. said:


> Bfree you have no idea....


Quite possible. I saw terms like BPD and Bi-Polar thrown out. Is her husband diagnosed with these conditions? If not has he gone to counseling? If not has there been any kind of intervention done? If not has there been talk of a temporary separation in order to spur him on to seek treatment?

I helped run a therapy group for many years. I worked with licensed therapists and counselors. There are many avenues to address someone who refuses treatment. Have all of these been tried?

And if her husband is that bad why leave her son in the house with him? I'm seeing a lot of possible options that I've not seen explored. Unless they have been fleshed out in other threads but as I'm combing through the OPs past posts I'm not seeing anything different.


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## Mavash.

Yes they've all been tried.


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## bfree

Mavash. said:


> Yes they've all been tried.


So there has been an intervention with family and/or friends? How did the husband receive this intervention? Did he accept that they said this in love and concern? There has been discussion of a temporary separation and they were separated for a time? What was the result of their separation? Did he commit to counseling? What about a session with Dr. Harley and Marriagebuilders? Was this ever talked about?

All the posts in this thread seem to indicate that his condition of BPD was confirmed here on TAM by well meaning but distant people. Nobody here has met with this man. We do not know anything other than what the OP has posted. Much of what she describes can also point to the fact that he is just sensitive and a "nice guy." I've known men just like what the OP husband seems like and they didn't have BPD and they weren't bi-polar. They were just ignorant as to how to communicate with their wives and so beaten down by fear of doing the wrong things that they resorted to doing nothing.

Has anyone talked about depression? Maybe the husband needs to be on medication. Has anyone suggested low testosterone? I've seen many men be affected in just this way by hypogonadism including B1 in the CWI forum and Beowulf who many of you are familiar with. All I'm saying is that there could be so many other reasons for the OP's husband's actions. And I certainly don't see the actions the OP has taken as being constructive or helpful in any way for her husband or for herself.


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## Mavash.

He's done counseling, he's on meds, he's gained 100+ pounds, his issues have issues. We've all tried to help her and she's done everything right. He however doesn't think he has a problem. That's his story and he's sticking to it. You can drag someone to an intervention but you can't make them change.


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## bfree

Mavash. said:


> He's done counseling, he's on meds, he's gained 100+ pounds, his issues have issues. We've all tried to help her and she's done everything right. He however doesn't think he has a problem. That's his story and he's sticking to it. You can drag someone to an intervention but you can't make them change.


So an intervention was done with family and or friends and he still denies there is a problem? They have already had a temporary separation and he still refuses counseling?

I read that he doesn't trust counselors. I'm sorry to say but he is not alone in that. Many people have received substandard and even harmful advice from counselors before. If this has happened to him then I can understand his hesitancy. What medication is he on? Is it the correct medication? Has he had his testosterone levels checked?

Am I the only one who thinks this situation has gone too far too fast. This thread was started in January and its only May and the OP already has an apartment furnished and has announced she is moving out? And she did all this behind her husband's back? Why wasn't it done out in the open so that he could see the seriousness of the situation? Maybe he would have done something differently? Both he and his son stated that they thought things were getting better. Maybe they are and the OP is so fixated on leaving that she isn't seeing it?

In the CWI section I am often the one that advises caution and moving slowly before divorce is utilized. Usually I am at odds with many in the "divorce the b!tch" crowd. The gang mentality is alive and well there. But it disturbs me to see the same thing here. Everyone seems to be praising the OP for her decisions but nobody is looking at other possibilities to what she has done and is doing. I have looked back at the OP's other posts and have not found any other threads she has started. So all I have is this one to go on and frankly I'm not seeing anything here that is irreparable.

From what I've seen the OP's husband is passive aggressive, has gained an inordinate amount of weight, and sometimes shows a lack of respect for his wife. Is that about it? What else is there that I'm missing here? Are those issues not fixable?

Frankly what I'm seeing is that problems arose, the OP was reluctant to address them until very recently, she allowed resentment to build up and now she is "walking away."

Again, what am I missing?


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## JustSomeGuyWho

bfree said:


> When I have time I will and if anyone wants to be so kind as to point me in the general direction I will endeavor to do that this evening. But IMO unless there is ongoing infidelity, ongoing physical abuse, or ongoing substance abuse I don't think ending the marriage is the answer. And I have even seen in many cases where there was abuse and/or infidelity the marriage has been fixed and been made stronger. And marital problems cannot be addressed if the spouses aren't together. Now I can see that sometimes a legal separation is advisable for a specific time period but NOT the way this has been handled. To me this has all the earmarks of a walk away wife situation and those almost never end well for the wife in question.


Well, I personally am not of the opinion that you should stay married at all costs unless one of those conditions exist. I am also of the opinion that the grass isn't necessarily greener on the other side; it is greener where you water it ... but if you live in the desert, is it worth it? 

That said, I separated from my wife and I am certain that the many positives that came out of that would not have happened without the separation. 1) It gave us perspective on what was important that would not have happened otherwise, and 2) it was a wake-up call for her (both of us really) that changes HAD to happen and without those changes the marriage would end. We have since reconciled and we are in a much better place than we were. That does not mean that the marriage will succeed; we still have some very fundamental differences that are unacceptable to me but I am very focused on resolving those. I am certain that under the circumstances I would not be at that place without the separation.

It's like working in a very stressful negative work environment over a long period of time with no breaks - you feel beaten down, stressed to the max. After a while you find yourself unable to cope and you can't see the forest through the trees. Small problems seem huge and you just don't know how to get out from under everything. Been there. That is when you take a vacation and just disconnect for awhile. Amazing what that does to your perspective.


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## Uptown

bfree said:


> I have looked back at the OP's other posts and have not found any other threads she has started.


Actually, Waking has started 37 other threads in addition to this one. You will find a list of them at her profile under the tab, "Statistics."


> Again, what am I missing?


Thirty-seven threads.


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Waking up to life's update*



JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Well, I personally am not of the opinion that you should stay married at all costs unless one of those conditions exist. I am also of the opinion that the grass isn't necessarily greener on the other side; it is greener where you water it ... but if you live in the desert, is it worth it?
> 
> That said, I separated from my wife and I am certain that the many positives that came out of that would not have happened without the separation. 1) It gave us perspective on what was important that would not have happened otherwise, and 2) it was a wake-up call for her (both of us really) that changes HAD to happen and without those changes the marriage would end. We have since reconciled and we are in a much better place than we were. That does not mean that the marriage will succeed; we still have some very fundamental differences that are unacceptable to me but I am very focused on resolving those. I am certain that under the circumstances I would not be at that place without the separation.
> 
> It's like working in a very stressful negative work environment over a long period of time with no breaks - you feel beaten down, stressed to the max. After a while you find yourself unable to cope and you can't see the forest through the trees. Small problems seem huge and you just don't know how to get out from under everything. Been there. That is when you take a vacation and just disconnect for awhile. Amazing what that does to your perspective.


I totally agree. When all avenues have otherwise been exhausted then sometimes a crisis point must be reached and a separation can be exactly that. My point with the OP is have all avenues been tried and if this is a last chance separation then why was it done so clandestinely?


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Waking up to life's update*



Uptown said:


> Actually, Waking has started 37 other threads in addition to this one. You will find a list of them at her profile under the tab, "Statistics."Thirty-seven threads.


Ok I'll start looking at them tomorrow. I combed through her posts but only saw replies to other threads.


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## bfree

Ok, so most of Waking's threads are fairly short. I ran through many of them tonight because I really wanted to see what else there was to this story. You know what? I don't see any more. Her husband is passive aggressive, has gained weight and sometimes exhibits a lack of respect for his wife. Oh and he farts. Ummm, this is reason to divorce? Really? Maybe I'm still missing something?

And she didn't go from posting in January to leaving in May. It was actually December when she started posting and she even admitted she had NEVER talked to her husband about any of her concerns. So she goes along for 19 years not saying anything and she expects him to change completely in less than 6 months? Really? Again, am I missing something?

She wants him to be more motivated, she wants him to lose weight, she wants him to accept criticism better, she wants him to respect her opinions. All very reasonable and all very doable. But complete change in 6 months? Not bloody likely.

Meanwhile she avoids confrontation with him, she says nothing. How is he supposed to know she isn't happy? And the times he notices that something is amiss he shows genuine concern. True he gets angry when she doesn't explain why she is feeling upset. But wouldn't anyone get angry if they knew something was wrong and weren't getting any feedback from their spouse? She says he doesn't deal well with situations. Has she given him the chance? Not that I saw. In fact, she blindsides him with moving out and from what she's written he's handling it pretty darn well. Even she acknowledges it. Maybe if she gave him a chance to deal with these issues all along they wouldn't be where they are today. But she didn't trust him to tell him the truth. She hid her counseling from him just like she hid her apartment from him.

Maybe he isn't on the right meds. Maybe if he went back to the doctor they could try a different medication. When someone is depressed they have no energy to make changes. They have no energy to be more motivated. Sometimes they don't even have the energy to get treatment. This is when they rely on loved ones to help them. Ever hear the phrase "for better or for worse?" But instead to pushing him to get help the OP said nothing. So he wallowed in his own lethargy. And again has anyone broached the subject of low testosterone with him. These are the exact same signs that someone suffering from hypogonadism would demonstrate. Again, nobody has given the husband a chance. And don't assume that a man has to be older to have hypogonadism. Beowulf was diagnosed with it when he was still in his late 20's. And if Waking's husband has high cholesterol this would be a likely cause since excess cholesterol can cause the pituitary gland to malfunction and the pituitary is what makes testosterone.

There was no intervention by family or friends. There was no visible separation to show how serious this problem was. There was only a coverup due to conflict avoidance. In my opinion Waking is a woman who is going through a mid life crisis and is a prototypical walk away wife. And its tragic for her, her husband and her son.


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## Mr Blunt

Here is what I concluded by reading this thread

Wakingup has done a good job of describing two main issues:

*1 Her husband’s immaturity, self esteem, and extreme dependency

2 Her resentments against him and dissatisfaction with her current life.*

Wakingup has also stated that he is not going to change and that she has to get out.


Wakingup has separated in an attempt to improve her life. Without her doing something to address her resentment and his issues; nothing is going to change. Based upon her statements above some action had to be taken to get out of the two destructive issues listed above.

*I applaud WakingUp for being strong enough to take some action.* This action that she has taken will also be tough on her. After years of a marriage that is not getting better but worse; I do not think that second guessing her decision to separate is NOT the best advice right now.

If the choice was to stay in the deteriorating relationship or make a move to see if positive change can occur; *I think that Wakingup made a painful but brave move*


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## bfree

Mr Blunt said:


> Here is what I concluded by reading this thread
> 
> Wakingup has done a good job of describing two main issues:
> 
> *1 Her husband’s immaturity, self esteem, and extreme dependency
> 
> 2 Her resentments against him and dissatisfaction with her current life.*
> 
> Wakingup has also stated that he is not going to change and that she has to get out.
> 
> 
> Wakingup has separated in an attempt to improve her life. Without her doing something to address her resentment and his issues; nothing is going to change. Based upon her statements above some action had to be taken to get out of the two destructive issues listed above.
> 
> *I applaud WakingUp for being strong enough to take some action.* This action that she has taken will also be tough on her. After years of a marriage that is not getting better but worse; I do not think that second guessing her decision to separate is NOT the best advice right now.
> 
> If the choice was to stay in the deteriorating relationship or make a move to see if positive change can occur; *I think that Wakingup made a painful but brave move*


Improving her life at the expense of her husband and son is the definition of a walk away spouse. Her description of the issues is her interpretation. By not expressing them to her husband she gave him NO opportunity to address them and offer his perspective. She gave him a puzzle with half the pieces gone in a dark room and then concludes he's too dumb to complete it.

It is HER opinion that he is not going to change. Shouldn't he get an opportunity to show one way or another whether he can or is willing to before she pulls the plug? Again, he was never told there was a problem and both he and their son felt the marriage was improving for the last few months. I wish I could see her as strong but not allowing her husband to fix the problems is weak in my opinion. I wish I could see her actions as brave but hiding while planning is not brave in my opinion.


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## 3Xnocharm

No offense, but there is no point to continuing this line of posting if you are not going to be supportive of Waking. She is dealing with enough right now, and comes here for support, not for more ways of being told she is wrong. If you want to address it with her directly, then send her a pm. Its her business if she has chosen this path.


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## bfree

3Xnocharm said:


> No offense, but there is no point to continuing this line of posting if you are not going to be supportive of Waking. She is dealing with enough right now, and comes here for support, not for more ways of being told she is wrong. If you want to address it with her directly, then send her a pm. Its her business if she has chosen this path.


So I am not being supportive by telling her that she is making a mistake ending a marriage that seems to be eminently fixable? I believe this site is called Talk About Marriage. That is what I am doing. I would rather be the lone voice in the wilderness urging restraint and loving consideration when a divorce is about to occur that I don't believe is necessary. I have personally counseled many men in worse situations that this and they have gone on to have long and healthy marriages. Are you suggesting that I should not express my opinion in support of saving a marriage?


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## 3Xnocharm

Well, you are 37 threads to late. She posted 38 threads about her marriage. You posted this:

"Improving her life at the expense of her husband and son is the definition of a walk away spouse. Her description of the issues is her interpretation. By not expressing them to her husband she gave him NO opportunity to address them and offer his perspective. She gave him a puzzle with half the pieces gone in a dark room and then concludes he's too dumb to complete it.

It is HER opinion that he is not going to change. Shouldn't he get an opportunity to show one way or another whether he can or is willing to before she pulls the plug? Again, he was never told there was a problem and both he and their son felt the marriage was improving for the last few months. I wish I could see her as strong but not allowing her husband to fix the problems is weak in my opinion. I wish I could see her actions as brave but hiding while planning is not brave in my opinion." 

If you have actually READ her threads, you would see just HOW MANY TIMES she addressed this with him. Over and over and over. They have been to counseling. This man is NOT in the dark, he chooses to pull the covers over his head while the sun is blaring through the window. 

I know first hand how damn difficult is it to decide that you no longer want to be married to your spouse. And I know the last thing i would have wanted to deal with was someone from the outside harping at me about how I just didnt TRY hard enough! Especially when I was looking for some moral support during the hardest time in my life.


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## JustSomeGuyWho

bfree said:


> So I am not being supportive by telling her that she is making a mistake ending a marriage that seems to be eminently fixable? I believe this site is called Talk About Marriage. That is what I am doing. I would rather be the lone voice in the wilderness urging restraint and loving consideration when a divorce is about to occur that I don't believe is necessary. I have personally counseled many men in worse situations that this and they have gone on to have long and healthy marriages. Are you suggesting that I should not express my opinion in support of saving a marriage?


Personally I think you have every right to express your opinion. We don't need to engage in group think.

Look, everybody has flaws. Sometimes you have to be removed from a situation to be able to see them. While she had the intention of divorce when separating, I think the overwhelming advice at this point is just to take it one step at a time and not make any decisions. It is easy to say that you should have tried harder or done this or that when you are not right in the middle of things. I am sure that she will look back with a clearer mind and recognize some of the mistakes that she has made. Everybody does. 

My separation was absolutely a learning experience ... it was like hitting myself with a 2x4. I did not do all the right things. I felt I had communicated and yet discovered how ineffective I was at doing it. I separated believing she was 90% at fault and I discovered along the way it was much closer to 50/50. I couldn't see that until I had separated.

You say that she doesn't have strength or she isn't brave. I disagree. She had strength and courage to make the huge step to change her life. What she lacked was the perspective that the separation is going to give her. Whether you believe it was the right step or not, it took a great deal of courage to make that step. After beating my head for years failing to fix my marriage, separating was still easily the hardest thing I ever did. I'm convinced it took years off my life. It wasn't until after I separated that I gained the perspective to once again try to fix my marriage. It wasn't what I expected but it was worth it.


----------



## Waking up to life

Bfree - I am too emotionally exhausted to go into elaborate detail of what has transpired in my 19 year marriage to cause me to come to this point, but I can say that...

1) I DID attempt to talk to him, many many times about things that were upsetting to me. As difficult as it was for me to talk to him, given my past experience of being shut down, minimized, belittled, invalidated, etc...I DID talk to him. And I got the same result.

2) I asked him to go to counseling with me. He went twice, then refused to go back because counseling is a "bunch of psychobabble" talk about "feelings" and is pointless. 

3) I have done everything I can to get him to take better care of his Bipolar 2. In fact, I was the one who made an appt for him 12 years ago, went with him, encouraged him to see a counselor, read up about his meds, etc. I did EVERYTHING around the house when he was so depressed all he did was sleep. 

3) Yes he has low testosterone. He knows it. He doesn't want to treat it despite my urging for him to try...end of story. 

This has been THE HARDEST DECISION I'VE EVER HAD TO MAKE IN MY LIFE. And it has been terribly painful to go through with it. He's handling it better than I thought. We've actually had long talks since the announcement and he has made some pretty insightful observations. And I know what many of you will say...he's just sayng whatever he needs to say in order to 'win me back'. That may be, but as much as I'm gullible to his emotional neediness, I'm also pretty insightful myself, and I know him better than any one of you do...so that being said, I do believe that doing this HAS begun to knock some sense into him. It has been a wake up call. Is it too late? I don't know. That's all I can say right now. I don't know. It's not what I planned...I planned to leave him and file for divorce. For the time being, I'm leaving options open. I still may decide to divorce. Or I might end up reconnecting with the man I loved and married 19 years ago. Time will tell. 

If ANYONE thinks I have taken the easy way out and am out for a joy ride in life at the expense of my son's and husband's happiness and well-being...I wish you could feel the pain like a knife in my stomach, the mental exhaustion I'm dealing with, the sh*t storm of emotions I'm barraged with from not only my own head, but those of my H, my son, my family, my friends...this is NOT easy by any stretch of the imagination. No...the easy thing to do would have been to continue to suffer a dysfunctional marriage in silence. But nothing would have EVER changed. EVER. THIS has been the only thing I've ever done that has shaken my H to the core and gotten him to see the issues. 

I will keep you all updated as I can. Thank you to those who have offered their kindness and support.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Waking up to life's update*



3Xnocharm said:


> Well, you are 37 threads to late. She posted 38 threads about her marriage. You posted this:
> 
> "Improving her life at the expense of her husband and son is the definition of a walk away spouse. Her description of the issues is her interpretation. By not expressing them to her husband she gave him NO opportunity to address them and offer his perspective. She gave him a puzzle with half the pieces gone in a dark room and then concludes he's too dumb to complete it.
> 
> It is HER opinion that he is not going to change. Shouldn't he get an opportunity to show one way or another whether he can or is willing to before she pulls the plug? Again, he was never told there was a problem and both he and their son felt the marriage was improving for the last few months. I wish I could see her as strong but not allowing her husband to fix the problems is weak in my opinion. I wish I could see her actions as brave but hiding while planning is not brave in my opinion."
> 
> If you have actually READ her threads, you would see just HOW MANY TIMES she addressed this with him. Over and over and over. They have been to counseling. This man is NOT in the dark, he chooses to pull the covers over his head while the sun is blaring through the window.
> 
> I know first hand how damn difficult is it to decide that you no longer want to be married to your spouse. And I know the last thing i would have wanted to deal with was someone from the outside harping at me about how I just didnt TRY hard enough! Especially when I was looking for some moral support during the hardest time in my life.


First of all it is never too late when it comes to offering an opinion before the divorce is final. I happened to see this thread because it was mentioned in another thread that I follow. She admits that she never addressed any of this with her husband before she started secret IC in January. She also states that he is a good man, a good father and a good provider. Read her own posts if you doubt. She also says that he has acknowledged her detachment but she didn't address the reasons with him. So it has not been mentioned to him many many times. It has been mentioned many times on TAM but not to her husband. They attended counseling two years ago but the husband felt like his issues weren't being addressed. This is actually a common occurrence. So if this is a new crisis for him and she admits improvement is it just that he is not improving fast enough? This is exactly what I mean by rushing headlong into divorce when a little caution may be warranted.


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## deejov

bfree,
I will acknowledge I hear what you are saying. 
The OP did not file for divorce.
The OP wants to move out, get some space, and maybe this will be a motivating factor for change.
Who knows what will happen.
Space, time, and a better perspective.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Waking up to life's update*



JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Personally I think you have every right to express your opinion. We don't need to engage in group think.
> 
> Look, everybody has flaws. Sometimes you have to be removed from a situation to be able to see them. While she had the intention of divorce when separating, I think the overwhelming advice at this point is just to take it one step at a time and not make any decisions. It is easy to say that you should have tried harder or done this or that when you are not right in the middle of things. I am sure that she will look back with a clearer mind and recognize some of the mistakes that she has made. Everybody does.
> 
> My separation was absolutely a learning experience ... it was like hitting myself with a 2x4. I did not do all the right things. I felt I had communicated and yet discovered how ineffective I was at doing it. I separated believing she was 90% at fault and I discovered along the way it was much closer to 50/50. I couldn't see that until I had separated.
> 
> You say that she doesn't have strength or she isn't brave. I disagree. She had strength and courage to make the huge step to change her life. What she lacked was the perspective that the separation is going to give her. Whether you believe it was the right step or not, it took a great deal of courage to make that step. After beating my head for years failing to fix my marriage, separating was still easily the hardest thing I ever did. I'm convinced it took years off my life. It wasn't until after I separated that I gained the perspective to once again try to fix my marriage. It wasn't what I expected but it was worth it.


Again, I have no problem with using a separation to drive home a point. It's the secretive nature of all of this that bothers me. It's that same secretive attitude that caused these problems not to be addressed in the first place. And imo it is not brave or strong. It's frankly unfair and shortsighted. These issues are quite fixable if she just gives him a chance. Don't they all deserve to have that opportunity?


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Waking up to life's update*



deejov said:


> bfree,
> I will acknowledge I hear what you are saying.
> The OP did not file for divorce.
> The OP wants to move out, get some space, and maybe this will be a motivating factor for change.
> Who knows what will happen.
> Space, time, and a better perspective.


Then why hide it? Let the man know how serious this is by doing it out in the open. Maybe she would have been surprised and he would have responded more intently. But he wasn't given a chance.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

bfree said:


> Then why hide it? Let the man know how serious this is by doing it out in the open. Maybe she would have been surprised and he would have responded more intently. But he wasn't given a chance.


Because AS SHOWN IN HER PREVIOUS THREADS, they do NOT take you seriously until you are either ready to play SERIOUS hardball, or, you are DONE! Most times, when you make the decision to leave, you have to do it this way, because of many reasons...they will take all the money...they will emotionally and verbally abuse you to try and make you stay...they will make empty promises, after proving time and again that their promises mean nothing...they could run off with the kids...all kinds of horrible scenarios! If you have never been through it, you wont understand it. It is a horrible, gut wrenching thing to have to go through. Please stop feeling sorry for her husband, she has been trying for 19 years to get through to him. Only now is he starting to actually take note. It will serve him well to learn to take care of himself, whether they ultimately stay together or not.


----------



## Waking up to life

coffee4me said:


> Waking, it's going to take time to sort out your feelings. You need this time away to get a clear view of things. I relate so much to the feelings you describe about your husband. I know that when you live with someone like that for years, then decades it wears you down. You constantly give until one day you find there's nothing left of yourself to give. You run interference daily with your child knowing all the while that the damage is being done. It's an mental state of exhaustion that never ends.
> 
> You need some time to gather your strength and decide a path that's best for you. Sending positive thoughts and strength to you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you...I couldn't have said it better myself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Waking up to life said:


> Bfree - I am too emotionally exhausted to go into elaborate detail of what has transpired in my 19 year marriage to cause me to come to this point, but I can say that...
> 
> 1) I DID attempt to talk to him, many many times about things that were upsetting to me. As difficult as it was for me to talk to him, given my past experience of being shut down, minimized, belittled, invalidated, etc...I DID talk to him. And I got the same result.
> 
> 2) I asked him to go to counseling with me. He went twice, then refused to go back because counseling is a "bunch of psychobabble" talk about "feelings" and is pointless.
> 
> 3) I have done everything I can to get him to take better care of his Bipolar 2. In fact, I was the one who made an appt for him 12 years ago, went with him, encouraged him to see a counselor, read up about his meds, etc. I did EVERYTHING around the house when he was so depressed all he did was sleep.
> 
> 3) Yes he has low testosterone. He knows it. He doesn't want to treat it despite my urging for him to try...end of story.
> 
> This has been THE HARDEST DECISION I'VE EVER HAD TO MAKE IN MY LIFE. And it has been terribly painful to go through with it. He's handling it better than I thought. We've actually had long talks since the announcement and he has made some pretty insightful observations. And I know what many of you will say...he's just sayng whatever he needs to say in order to 'win me back'. That may be, but as much as I'm gullible to his emotional neediness, I'm also pretty insightful myself, and I know him better than any one of you do...so that being said, I do believe that doing this HAS begun to knock some sense into him. It has been a wake up call. Is it too late? I don't know. That's all I can say right now. I don't know. It's not what I planned...I planned to leave him and file for divorce. For the time being, I'm leaving options open. I still may decide to divorce. Or I might end up reconnecting with the man I loved and married 19 years ago. Time will tell.
> 
> If ANYONE thinks I have taken the easy way out and am out for a joy ride in life at the expense of my son's and husband's happiness and well-being...I wish you could feel the pain like a knife in my stomach, the mental exhaustion I'm dealing with, the sh*t storm of emotions I'm barraged with from not only my own head, but those of my H, my son, my family, my friends...this is NOT easy by any stretch of the imagination. No...the easy thing to do would have been to continue to suffer a dysfunctional marriage in silence. But nothing would have EVER changed. EVER. THIS has been the only thing I've ever done that has shaken my H to the core and gotten him to see the issues.
> 
> I will keep you all updated as I can. Thank you to those who have offered their kindness and support.


My posts were not meant to upset you although I had an inkling that's what would happen. I simply wanted to offer an alternative to the suggestions that you have been receiving to this point. I do believe in second chances. That's the primary reason I offer my support and thoughts in the Coping With Infidelity section. All I'm saying is to give your husband a chance to prove himself. Much of what he said can be placed at the foot of fear. If he is strong enough he can defeat fear, not by pushing it away but by embracing it and understanding it better. Courage is not the absence of fear, it is the presence of fear but doing what needs to be done anyway. Hopefully your husband will overcome and understand his fear. I was not being a contrarian when I said that most of the troubles in your marriage are solvable. And please try to have an open mind when it comes to seeing the progress and effort your husband might be making. You said he was unmotivated. I will remind you that not only is he working a full time job but he is also going to college. That is not a person that isn't motivated. Its someone that can motivate himself when he sees the need. Hopefully this latest chapter in your marriage will demonstrate to him a need to become motivated about your marriage and about his issues. I will be praying for both of you daily.


----------



## bfree

3Xnocharm said:


> Because AS SHOWN IN HER PREVIOUS THREADS, they do NOT take you seriously until you are either ready to play SERIOUS hardball, or, you are DONE! Most times, when you make the decision to leave, you have to do it this way, because of many reasons...they will take all the money...they will emotionally and verbally abuse you to try and make you stay...they will make empty promises, after proving time and again that their promises mean nothing...they could run off with the kids...all kinds of horrible scenarios! If you have never been through it, you wont understand it. It is a horrible, gut wrenching thing to have to go through. Please stop feeling sorry for her husband, she has been trying for 19 years to get through to him. Only now is he starting to actually take note. It will serve him well to learn to take care of himself, whether they ultimately stay together or not.


I have already replied to the original OP so I will back away for now. But I did want to offer up this thought.

Who is *they*?

I understand that TAM can be emotionally charged and at the same time soul draining. But please don't look at any one group with any preconceived notions. Each person is different and deserves the chance to demonstrate their abilities and faults of their own without being profiled in any way. Just because one husband or man behaves in a certain way does not mean *they* all do. And controlling is just another word for weakness. Nobody can control another person. Its an illusion that is sometimes used to rationalize behavior that is injurious to another. The OPs husband deserves a chance to show what he as an individual can accomplish without having to overcome false labels.


----------



## Holland

bfree said:


> I have already replied to the original OP so I will back away for now. But I did want to offer up this thought.
> 
> Who is *they*?
> 
> I understand that TAM can be emotionally charged and at the same time soul draining. But please don't look at any one group with any preconceived notions. Each person is different and deserves the chance to demonstrate their abilities and faults of their own without being profiled in any way. Just because one husband or man behaves in a certain way does not mean *they* all do. And controlling is just another word for weakness. Nobody can control another person. Its an illusion that is sometimes used to rationalize behavior that is injurious to another. *The OPs husband deserves a chance to show what he as an individual can accomplish without having to overcome false labels.*


You really are over stepping the boundaries here. Is bad enough that you are trying to have a debate in a thread that is someone's *update* in their very traumatic and difficult situation but then to defend one party while at the same time accusing the OP of being a walk away wife is reprehensible.
You have used false labels and accusations against the OP but somehow you think that is ok.

Waking I am sorry to step in like this and will not respond to this thread again unless it is to give you support. Please do not feel pressured into having to justify your actions to people especially those with a destructive agenda.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Waking up to life's update*



Holland said:


> You really are over stepping the boundaries here. Is bad enough that you are trying to have a debate in a thread that is someone's *update* in their very traumatic and difficult situation but then to defend one party while at the same time accusing the OP of being a walk away wife is reprehensible.
> You have used false labels and accusations against the OP but somehow you think that is ok.
> 
> Waking I am sorry to step in like this and will not respond to this thread again unless it is to give you support. Please do not feel pressured into having to justify your actions to people especially those with a destructive agenda.


If that is what you took away from my posts then all I can say is I'm sorry for your anger and I hope you find peace. 

God bless.


----------



## KathyBatesel

Bfree, I know you often have good input, and your posts in this thread are seeing WUTL's situation through fresh eyes, but you've reached a point where you're seeing many people confronting you and yet you continue to hammer at your point. 

It seems like you have a sensitive spot to thinking that he's not being given a chance, but here's the thing... Even if you are correct, she's not receptive, and TAM is a forum, not an intervention.


----------



## bfree

KathyBatesel said:


> Bfree, I know you often have good input, and your posts in this thread are seeing WUTL's situation through fresh eyes, but you've reached a point where you're seeing many people confronting you and yet you continue to hammer at your point.
> 
> It seems like you have a sensitive spot to thinking that he's not being given a chance, but here's the thing... Even if you are correct, she's not receptive, and TAM is a forum, not an intervention.


I am not afraid of confrontation. In fact it is often through confrontation that epiphanies are reached. And quite frankly and with all due respect I am not posting for the benefit of other people. They are secondary to the original poster. I read this thread after being led here through another thread and what I saw was that everyone was pushing the same viewpoint. I saw things differently and offered a fresh and alternative perspective to Waking so that she would think about how to proceed. I wasn't sure she would be receptive but from what she had recently posted she seemed to be having doubts about her current actions. We are all human beings and as such we are communal creatures. While this has its advantages it also has its drawbacks. One of those drawbacks in the so called "gang mentality." I see it all the time in CWI. In fact Elegirl, EI and others were recently "victims" of this gang mentality when trying to offer a different but yet valuable perspective. I felt that such a perspective was needed here, not for myself or for any other posters but for Waking. She is obviously free to disregard my thoughts as she sees fit. But I am quite disturbed that many here who I respect, you included, would react the way that you have. I have been respectful, I have tried to offer insight from my own experience and yet I have been attacked for daring to go against the "party line." Holland goes so far as to call my thoughts a destructive agenda and I see that you have agreed with her. So be it. I will still sleep as soundly this evening as I did last evening. But I caution you, as I caution others in CWI to not let your tendency toward the "gang mentality" to adversely affect your reasoning and advice. As for what TAM is and isn't I ask you. If TAM is a forum aren't differing opinions one of its strengths? And if everyone is united and pushing the same agenda isn't that an intervention? Now look carefully and ask yourself what this thread resembles more?


----------



## KathyBatesel

I'm not sure if it was in this thread or another one that I raised many of the same points, BFree, and I got the same reaction. 

And while I agree that confrontation can be invaluable for reaching epiphanies, especially in a therapeutic sense, they can also backfire, especially when it's one going against an ocean. 

Yes, group think can be equally bad/harmful. I actually find your posts (even in this thread) to be on point. I've perceived the same things in WUTL's posts. I've also found, as you have, that the posts I've seen aren't filled with all that much detail to have me firmly in the corner of "leaving is the right thing to do." But.... Timing is everything.


----------



## Waking up to life

KathyBatesel said:


> I've also found, as you have, that the posts I've seen aren't filled with all that much detail to have me firmly in the corner of "leaving is the right thing to do." But.... Timing is everything.


Thank you all for your concern...however, I'm not interested in "convincing" anyone that my decision is right. I think there are subtle nuances to a marriage like mine that are almost impossible to relate via discussion forum, no matter how much "detail" I attempt to describe. Many TAM members who have been in similar situations to mine can definitely relate. Many who have different marital experiences cannot so easily relate. 

So...any of you are welcome to post up your opinion as any TAM member is. But don't get so caught up in hammering your point that I handled this wrong or that you don't see that it was necessary that you miss the fact that I AM being receptive (Kathy) to your input and I AM reevaluating my plans as I go along. Put down your hammers long enough to read what I have said recently...I said that my original intention was to leave and divorce rather quickly. Now, I am tabling the filing of divorce for the time being. While it's still very early, I am seeing more action and more soul searching in my H than I have seen probably ever. Unfortunately this is what it took to get him to take notice. In fact, he even told me that he didn't really truly hear my issues even after I told him I was leaving...it wasn't until I told him I already had an apartment and was moving out that the 2x4 smacked him in the head hard enough to get him to really hear me...he told me that himself. 

So right or wrong (probably some of both), this is the only thing that has EVER even begun to level the table in our marriage and get him to acknowledge my needs and feelings. Nothing short of this would have had any effect. It is done...now I have only to navigate the waters ahead. You all can go on bickering about whether I should or shouldn't have done this, but it doesn't change anything. I have to keep looking ahead.


----------



## pink_lady

Waking up to life said:


> While it's still very early, I am seeing more action and more soul searching in my H than I have seen probably ever. Unfortunately this is what it took to get him to take notice. In fact, he even told me that he didn't really truly hear my issues even after I told him I was leaving...it wasn't until I told him I already had an apartment and was moving out that the 2x4 smacked him in the head hard enough to get him to really hear me...he told me that himself.
> 
> So right or wrong (probably some of both), this is the only thing that has EVER even begun to level the table in our marriage and get him to acknowledge my needs and feelings. Nothing short of this would have had any effect. It is done...now I have only to navigate the waters ahead. You all can go on bickering about whether I should or shouldn't have done this, but it doesn't change anything. I have to keep looking ahead.


Pretty much without exception, the men on these boards who had so-called 'walk-away wives' said the only thing that could have possibly snapped them out of their fog was major ACTION, not words. It makes no sense for an online spectator to fault WUTL for finally taking action.

Unless you've been married for 19 years to a man with identical personality issues, you can't know what it's been like for her. At some point she has to start thinking of herself- I would imagine the last thing she needs is to be dragged back into feeling guilty unless she's a martyr to her husband's comfort.


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## MsStacy

WUTL, it's a shame that people feel they have to HAMMER their point in order to be heard. I fully agree that everyone is entitled to an opinion, and in posting on an open forum, we open ourselves up to those opinions. Heck, we welcome them!! I think it has turned into badgering on your post. You are doing the best you can, which is all we can do. You are changing plans and taking your time based on the response within your family. I cannot imagine the anguish of separating and moving as you have done. I understand it though. Take your time. Do what is right for you, your son and your husband...in that order. Your marriage may come out better and stronger after this, or it may dissolve. None of us here will live with your decisions or consequences. I get the situation you are in, it is scary how similar our Hs are. I don't know where my situation is going yet, but I'll be damned if someone who has never walked in my shoes is going to hammer me about what is "right or wrong". Stating an opinion is one thing, beating someone when they're down and you've never lived it is quite another. 

BFree said he had worked "alongside" LCSWs and counseled people. I'd like to know what his education qualifications are??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Holland

waking I applaud your strength and rational mindset. No one knows what really goes on in someone elses marriage, you have to do what you see is right. Getting some space and distance from the situation is a good move, clarity is hard to find when you are in the middle of a mess.

My partner's ex has mental health issues, I see his turmoil, keep out of the actual situation but am there to support him in the best way I can. FWIW he has located a support group for children of parents with mental illness. If there is something like this around for your son it could be a good thing.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Waking...I'm happy that you have separated, but also put divorce on hold for now. Both seem to be the right course of action for now.

Give yourself, your h and your son some time to settle in and see what happens next.


----------



## KathyBatesel

Waking up to life said:


> I think there are subtle nuances to a marriage like mine that are almost impossible to relate via discussion forum, no matter how much "detail" I attempt to describe.


I think this is what I was mostly trying to get at, but WUTL said it more eloquently and accurately. I realized that for whatever reason, WUTL and others were telling me that I was missing a lot of backstory, so at that point I think it's important to recognize where SHE is, not focus so much on him.


----------



## bfree

MsStacy said:


> BFree said he had worked "alongside" LCSWs and counseled people. I'd like to know what his education qualifications are??
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What do they need to be to offer an opinion? What are yours?


----------



## bfree

pink_lady said:


> Pretty much without exception, the men on these boards who had so-called 'walk-away wives' said the only thing that could have possibly snapped them out of their fog was major ACTION, not words. It makes no sense for an online spectator to fault WUTL for finally taking action.
> 
> Unless you've been married for 19 years to a man with identical personality issues, you can't know what it's been like for her. At some point she has to start thinking of herself- I would imagine the last thing she needs is to be dragged back into feeling guilty unless she's a martyr to her husband's comfort.


You're correct, there is no way to know what she has gone through. Furthermore I also agree that most "walk away wives" have legitimate gripes when it comes to the marriage. I just wish they didn't digest and harbor all the frustration and anger until resentment built up so much that they felt the need to walk away. It is good that WUTL has finally taken action to elicit a crisis point in her marriage. My main point was not that she has taken the wrong action, just that the current and previous actions have not been done to maximum effectiveness. FWIW, I do believe that what Waking is doing now is correct going forward and I just want her to keep an open mind and not let built up resentment potentially destroy what could be a wonderful future. It certainly sounds like she is looking at things a little more objectively. Maybe just the act of taking some action has helped her outlook.


----------



## bfree

KathyBatesel said:


> I'm not sure if it was in this thread or another one that I raised many of the same points, BFree, and I got the same reaction.
> 
> And while I agree that confrontation can be invaluable for reaching epiphanies, especially in a therapeutic sense, they can also backfire, especially when it's one going against an ocean.
> 
> Yes, group think can be equally bad/harmful. I actually find your posts (even in this thread) to be on point. I've perceived the same things in WUTL's posts. I've also found, as you have, that the posts I've seen aren't filled with all that much detail to have me firmly in the corner of "leaving is the right thing to do." But.... Timing is everything.


It sounds like you apparently subscribe to the same "destructive agenda" as has been attributed to me. For what its worth I have received a few PMs since my first post. There are other posters that wanted to express similar thoughts but were afraid of receiving the same reaction as I did. I really wasn't trying to "hammer home" any type of opinion. I simply stated my original thought and responded to a few posters in the hopes of clarification. Again I was only trying to offer alternative viewpoints in an obviously painful and emotional situation.


----------



## pink_lady

bfree said:


> I also agree that most "walk away wives" have legitimate gripes when it comes to the marriage. I just wish they didn't digest and harbor all the frustration and anger until resentment built up so much that they felt the need to walk away.


But that's the point- they don't 'harbor' frustration and anger- they attempt to communicate in every way they know how over and over and over, but the husband refuses to acknowledge problems, refuses outside help, and/or refuses to make any effort to change his behavior.

There is nothing left to do at that point but accept that the relationship will never be different or start planning your eventual exit.


----------



## notperfectanymore

bfree said:


> It sounds like you apparently subscribe to the same "destructive agenda" as has been attributed to me. For what its worth I have received a few PMs since my first post. There are other posters that wanted to express similar thoughts but were afraid of receiving the same reaction as I did. I really wasn't trying to "hammer home" any type of opinion. I simply stated my original thought and responded to a few posters in the hopes of clarification. Again I was only trying to offer alternative viewpoints in an obviously painful and emotional situation.


I'm going to risk my first banning lately to tell you that your really don't have a clue and should just please STEP OUT. It is obvious in your posts that you have never dealt with someone with rather strong BPD tendencies or other mental issues. You have no idea what these people do to your head, self esteem, and life in general. To escape them with any sense of self is tough. This isn't just a simple case of issues not being heard, walk away wife...yada yada...WUTL is making some very bold and tough decisions....she will go thru a pile of emotions and decisions in the process. She needs support. Like I said, you really don't have a clue...hopefully you will never have to...


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Waking up to life's update*



notperfectanymore said:


> I'm going to risk my first banning lately to tell you that your really don't have a clue and should just please STEP OUT. It is obvious in your posts that you have never dealt with someone with rather strong BPD tendencies or other mental issues. You have no idea what these people do to your head, self esteem, and life in general. To escape them with any sense of self is tough. This isn't just a simple case of issues not being heard, walk away wife...yada yada...WUTL is making some very bold and tough decisions....she will go thru a pile of emotions and decisions in the process. She needs support. Like I said, you really don't have a clue...hopefully you will never have to...


Actually a close family member of my wife is currently being evaluated for BPD. Ironically it was information posted by Kathy that helped us to recognize the symptoms. But I was unaware that Waking's husband had been diagnosed with BPD. I must have missed it. And you haven't been rude so I don't see why you should be banned.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Waking up to life's update*



pink_lady said:


> But that's the point- they don't 'harbor' frustration and anger- they attempt to communicate in every way they know how over and over and over, but the husband refuses to acknowledge problems, refuses outside help, and/or refuses to make any effort to change his behavior.
> 
> There is nothing left to do at that point but accept that the relationship will never be different or start planning your eventual exit.


I believe that Waking has desperately tried to communicate these issues to her husband. It has often been my experience that the recipient doesn't always receive the message as intended. This is one of the reasons that therapists and counselors work on a couple's communication skills first. It is absolutely correct that often action is necessary to bring home the message. Sometimes it is not until we almost lose something that we learn to appreciate it. I hope that is the case here and Waking's husband receives his much needed wake up call. I still believe very strongly that their marriage can be saved and I pray that is the case.


----------



## bfree

pink lady, I'm glad you brought up communication. I totally believe that WUTL has tried to communicate the marital issues to her husband. It seems either he is in denial as to the severity or he is refusing to acknowledge them at all. And that is the tragedy. She may be in fact communicating the best that she can. And to us it may be completely apparent what these issues are and that they need to be addressed. But we are not married to her. We do not have those emotional ties and familiarity that can often dampen or even prevent effective communication. This is why a crisis point is often needed in order to drive the point home. I can see some other steps that might have been pursued that might have elicited this crisis point before or even instead of the separation that has ultimately occurred. Regardless they are where they are right now and since it can no longer be denied by any parties involved that there are indeed serious issues to address working on communication is going to be a key moving forward. There can no longer be any ambiguity on either side. Straight honest communication must be the goal.

If I were to say to you "A woman without her man is nothing" how would you interpret that sentence? Would you see it as "A woman, without her man, is nothing" or would you interpret it thusly "A woman: without her, man is nothing."

This is the problem when someone says I tried to communicate but he/she won't listen. You indeed may have tried to communicate but if the person you are communicating with misinterprets or disregards the message it is as if the message was never sent.

Edit: I was going to use "When engaging in anal sex use your head" as an example of a potentially misinterpreted sentence but I figured THAT might really result in a banning.


----------



## Faithful Wife

bfree said: "It has often been my experience that the recipient doesn't always receive the message as intended."

No offense, but why does your experience matter here at all?


----------



## bfree

Faithful Wife said:


> bfree said: "It has often been my experience that the recipient doesn't always receive the message as intended."
> 
> No offense, but why does your experience matter here at all?


No offense? Interesting.

Why do you believe that it doesn't. Does your experience matter? Do you feel that my opinion is any more or less valuable than your own? Maybe a better question is why did you make that comment? What relevance is it to the thread subject?

We are all products of our experiences. A forum like TAM is made up of many voices all with different experiences and different opinions. Those voices all combine to form a chorus of sorts, a chorus that inspires and illuminates. And it is through that chorus that we learn and grow. What a boring world it would be if everyone had the same voice. Boring and monotone.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I believe you understood my point, but are deflecting.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Waking up to life's update*



Faithful Wife said:


> I believe you understood my point, but are deflecting.


Not at all. Feel free to elaborate.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Omg let it go. I am un-subbing from this thread. Waking knows she is free to PM me.


----------



## bfree

3Xnocharm said:


> Omg let it go. I am un-subbing from this thread. Waking knows she is free to PM me.


Totally agree. Let it go.


----------



## Holland

This was an *update *thread not a *debate *or w*hat do you think *thread. Please just leave it alone *bfree*. Do you not understand boundaries? Yes it is an open forum but you are using it as your own soap box, it is excruciating.
Waking did not ask a question, she gave an update because there are many people on TAM that know her story and are here to support her.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Waking up to life's update*



Holland said:


> This was an *update *thread not a *debate *or w*hat do you think *thread. Please just leave it alone *bfree*. Do you not understand boundaries? Yes it is an open forum but you are using it as your own soap box, it is excruciating.
> Waking did not ask a question, she gave an update because there are many people on TAM that know her story and are here to support her.


Exactly whose boundaries am I violating? Walking said that all are free to post their opinions. Furthermore there are others that are silently viewing this thread. It is possible that information gleaned from this thread might help them in their struggles. Waking sounds like an extremely compassionate and caring person. I'm sure she would want others to potentially avoid even a fraction of the heartache she has had to endure. And if you'll notice after my first two posts most of my comments have been replies to others, just like this one. However your comment as well as other recent comments have not been directed to Waking nor have they been constructive to the subject. Perhaps you and some of the others should refrain from derailing this thread and return to the purpose which is to help Waking through this difficult time. So far I have offered various methods that one can use to help motivate someone into action. I have talked about communication and its pitfalls. I have talked about how exercising caution can often lead to being pleasantly surprised. I have spoken about how high cholesterol can lead to low testosterone condition. I have mentioned how doing things in secrecy may not be the best avenue and why. And I have encouraged Waking to keep her eyes open in case she should decide to work on her marriage. And I will stand by her and offer advice whether she decides to divorce or reconcile whereas I get the distinct feeling that many here would be very disappointed should she decide to give her marriage another chance. So exactly why does everyone here have a problem with me? Because I'm not encouraging her to divorce at all costs? Because I tried to show what her husband might be thinking and feeling? Because I have hope that she can still have a happy marriage and happy life? Because I've added her to my prayer list? Please point out exactly what your problem is because the only ones I see standing on soap boxes are the ones I'm replying to.


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## Faithful Wife

Waking, how are you doing today?


----------



## Waking up to life

Faithful Wife said:


> Waking, how are you doing today?


I'm doing ok. Thanks for asking. My first official night staying at the apartment was Tuesday night. It was of course very difficult because my H is still so heartbroken over this. My son had been very quiet and distant. Tuesday night when I was getting ready to leave, I took some things out to the car. When I came back inside, my H told me my son thought I was leaving and not saying goodbye. I told him I would NEVER do that and that I was sorry. I said goodbye to both of them and said I'd be in touch with my son the next day. Later I texted him and said that I was so sorry he was upset and that I loved him and would ALWAYS be there for him, and I hoped he'd want to come see the apartment some time soon. 

He texted me back 3 hours later with this: 
"I love you too. I'm so sorry for being angry. I didn't understand what you were doing because no one explained it to me. Dad explained why you moved tonight and I understand and appreciate what you did. I'd love to come over some time. You've always been a hard working and responsible mother and I would do anything for you. Sorry I didn't see your message earlier. Good night!" 

My H also texted me and said they just had a 3 hour chat about what has transpired in our marriage, how he had neglected some of my needs, how I've sacrificed so much in our marriage because of having to help care for his elderly parents, etc. He asked my son to be understanding that I needed to do this in order to reconnect with myself and force some needed changes that would've not happened otherwise. 

My H is stepping up to the plate in ways I've never seen before. For once in our marriage, he's put aside his "self-important" (his words) attitude and is really starting to grasp the issues. He's connecting better with my son than they've ever been. They're working together, planning things together, and for once in our marriage my son doesn't dread having to be with him without me present. 

My H of course is still very sad...today I went and picked up my son to spend the day with him. I came inside to get a few things and say hi to my cat. My H asked me to stay a minute because he wanted to ask something about a car repair (it's on a car we both technically own, but it's for my son when he gets his license). So we talked about that, talked about all the work he's done around the house, how he's started to really try to lose weight and go for walks, etc. I finally said I needed to go, and he asked if I'd stay for a cup of coffee, which I kindly declined. He asked if I'd just stay and visit a little longer, which again I kindly excused myself from. 

I'm proud of him for making these beginnings of changes that will hopefully be long lasting. I'm impressed with his attitude and his heartfelt attempts to understand what's going on and to connect with our son. But right now I'm not feeling any sort of romantic love for him...I hate to say that right now I just don't miss him the way he misses me. It's too soon for that, IMO, but he desperately wants me to feel it. I just can't force myself to feel something I don't. It will take a long time, if it ever does happen.

He's really having a hard time with me not being there. This week has been the most turbulent of my life, so I haven't made up any "ground rules" about how often I would agree to see him, etc. I am doing my best to find a good balance for my son's sake. It's just awkward right now. Very, very awkward.


----------



## diwali123

Please do yourself a favor and take a long time for him to prove that these changes are long lasting. 
I do think you should set regular times for your son to spend the night with you. 
I'm glad that your h is being kind and understanding. But if he is like my ex he is an excellent manipulator and only does what he is forced to do or what will get him something.


----------



## Uptown

Waking up to life said:


> "I love you too. I'm so sorry for being angry. I didn't understand what you were doing because no one explained it to me. Dad explained why you moved tonight and I understand and appreciate what you did. I'd love to come over some time. You've always been a hard working and responsible mother and I would do anything for you. Sorry I didn't see your message earlier. Good night!"


Waking, what a remarkable message from your son! I am so happy for you that he recovered from his anger and opened up to you in that way. As to your H, it is a good sign that he is not trying to trash you to your son but, instead, is trying to explain the situation in a neutral manner. I can only hope, for you, that your H will persist in that attitude.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Wow, great update, thank you for sharing.

By "great" I mean, so much growth is occurring right now for your family. Growing pains hurt like hell sometimes, though.


----------



## SlowlyGettingWiser

bfree said:


> When I have time I will and if anyone wants to be so kind as to point me in the general direction I will endeavor to do that this evening. But *IMO unless there is ongoing infidelity, ongoing physical abuse, or ongoing substance abuse I don't think ending the marriage is the answer.* And I have even seen in many cases where there was abuse and/or infidelity the marriage has been fixed and been made stronger. And marital problems cannot be addressed if the spouses aren't together. Now I can see that sometimes a legal separation is advisable for a specific time period but NOT the way this has been handled. To me this has all the earmarks of a walk away wife situation and those almost never end well for the wife in question.


If you truly believe *this*, then you are NEVER going to understand anyone (man/woman) in a relationship with someone who is emotionally or mentally abusive. EVER understand!

Not every person whose spouse dumps them is just some big ol' DUMB DUFUS who just needs to be 'wised up' to some rude, thoughtless, hurtful behavior by well-meaning friends and relatives! Some of these people are UNWELL. They are mentally, emotionally or personality-disordered. 

And your assertion that people should avoid making judgements about their significant others UNLESS said significant other has been "diagnosed" is laughable! These are NOT the kind of people who WILLINGLY see a doctor, nor submit to testing, nor to counseling! So although the actual 'diagnosis' of their problem IS beyond the scope of the spouse (unless s/he is a professional shrink) RECOGNIZING THE BEHAVIORS is not!

I'm NOT a doctor, but when I see someone turning red in the face, gasping for air, and clutching at their throat in a restaurant....I 'diagnose' them as "choking"...even though I don't have a medical degree! Could they be faking? Yeah. Can they afford to wait for a REAL diagnosis....HARDLY!


----------



## SlowlyGettingWiser

Waking up to life said:


> But right now I'm not feeling any sort of romantic love for him...I hate to say that right now I just don't miss him the way he misses me. It's too soon for that, IMO, but he desperately wants me to feel it. I just can't force myself to feel something I don't. It will take a long time, if it ever does happen.
> 
> He's really having a hard time with me not being there. This week has been the most turbulent of my life, so *I haven't made up any "ground rules" about how often I would agree to see him, etc.* I am doing my best to find a good balance for my son's sake. It's just awkward right now. Very, very awkward.


Remember, these would be GUIDELINES...they're NOT set in stone once you make a decision. Circumstances/feelings may be such that you decide you need to spend MORE/LESS time with H than you originally thought. DO WHAT YOU NEED TO FOR YOU! 

Do not get bogged down in promises/arguing. "I will see you as often as I feel comfortable. Right now, that's X. That may change in the future...I don't know. I can't predict the future. All we can do is take one week at a time." is a perfectly reasonable answer and is perfectly honest.

Don't feel "guilted" into promising MORE than you can deliver.
Don't feel "cornered" into promising LESS than you can deliver. YOU need to make the rules because YOU'RE the one who needed things to change in a MAJOR WAY in order to hold onto your soul and your sanity. DO THAT by HONORING yourself and making choices that benefit YOU!

As time passes, you'll find making decisions EASIER, you'll have more CLARITY about what you want, what H wants, what you each can/can't deliver, what you're each willing to put forth, what you're each willing to accept. 

Give it a couple of months and you'll feel MUCH MORE calm and in control of your own life/decisions than you do NOW. That will enable you to make the best decisions for EVERYONE involved.

*hugs*
SGW


----------



## bfree

Waking, I'm glad to see that your H is starting to accept responsibility for his part in the breakdown of the marriage. But he needs to show much more before you will begin to know if it has truly taken hold. One thing that we often say in the CWI forum. Regret = words, remorse = action. That same principle applies here. When he goes back to counseling and gets his bi-polar medications updated and follows up on his low testosterone treatments then maybe it will prove he is starting to truly understand what he needs to do. And he needs to do this for himself and for your son as well. As for his diet, many men tend to do well with the paleo style diet or some derivative thereof barring any medical conditions of course. Hopefully this is truly a wakeup call for him. Whether you reconcile or divorce I'm sure you still care for him so even though you are rightfully concentrating on yourself at this time offer him some encouragement when appropriate. Make sure you take care of yourself. Make sure you are eating well. I read that you frequent the gym. Try to continue to do that if possible since consistency in your schedule might help to give you some semblance of normalcy. You are still on the prayer lists of both my wife and myself.


----------



## bfree

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> If you truly believe *this*, then you are NEVER going to understand anyone (man/woman) in a relationship with someone who is emotionally or mentally abusive. EVER understand!
> 
> Not every person whose spouse dumps them is just some big ol' DUMB DUFUS who just needs to be 'wised up' to some rude, thoughtless, hurtful behavior by well-meaning friends and relatives! Some of these people are UNWELL. They are mentally, emotionally or personality-disordered.
> 
> And your assertion that people should avoid making judgements about their significant others UNLESS said significant other has been "diagnosed" is laughable! These are NOT the kind of people who WILLINGLY see a doctor, nor submit to testing, nor to counseling! So although the actual 'diagnosis' of their problem IS beyond the scope of the spouse (unless s/he is a professional shrink) RECOGNIZING THE BEHAVIORS is not!
> 
> I'm NOT a doctor, but when I see someone turning red in the face, gasping for air, and clutching at their throat in a restaurant....I 'diagnose' them as "choking"...even though I don't have a medical degree! Could they be faking? Yeah. Can they afford to wait for a REAL diagnosis....HARDLY!


It is clear that Waking's husband needs to go back to counseling in order to reevaluate his bi-polar disorder and to investigate the possibility of BPD. But until something changes it is probably prudent to concentrate on what is known vs. what cannot possibly be dealt with...yet. Specifically regarding the suggestion surrounding Waking's husband's potential BPD, I have done a lot of research since my wife's relative is currently being evaluated for BPD among other potential mental health issues. I post the following for Waking's benefit and for anyone else that cares.

Diagnosis of Borderline Personality Disorder Is Often Flawed: Scientific American

_This past June renowned clinical psychologist Marsha M. Linehan of the University of Washington made a striking admission. Known for her pioneering work on borderline personality disorder (BPD), a severe and intractable psychiatric condition, 68-year-old Linehan announced that as an adolescent, she had been hospitalized for BPD. Suicidal and self-destructive, the teenage Linehan had slashed her limbs repeatedly with knives and other sharp objects and banged her head violently against the hospital walls. The hospital’s discharge summary in 1963 described her as “one of the most disturbed patients in the hospital.” Yet despite a second hospitalization, Linehan eventually improved and earned a Ph.D. from Chicago’s Loyola University in 1971.

Many psychologists and psychiatrists were taken aback by Linehan’s courageous admission, which received high-profile coverage in the New York Times. Part of their surprise almost surely stemmed from an uncomfortable truth: people with BPD are often regarded as hopeless individuals, destined to a life of emotional misery. They are also frequently viewed as so disturbed that they cannot possibly achieve success in everyday life. As a consequence, highly accomplished individuals such as Linehan do not fit the stereotypical mold of a former BPD sufferer. But as Linehan’s case suggests, much of the intense pessimism and stigma surrounding this disorder are unjustified. Indeed, few psychological disorders are more mischaracterized or misunderstood._

_Once Borderline Always Borderline?
Two allied myths about BPD are that patients virtually never improve over time and are essentially untreatable. Yet a number of recent studies indicate that many patients with BPD shed their diagnoses after several years. In a 2006 investigation, for example, psychologists C. Emily Durbin and Daniel N. Klein, both then at Stony Brook University, found that although 16 percent of 142 psychiatrically disturbed adults initially met criteria for BPD, only 7 percent did after a decade. Moreover, the average levels of BPD symptoms in the sample declined significantly over time. Work by psychologist Timothy J. Trull and his colleagues at the University of Missouri–Columbia similarly suggests that many young adults who display some features of BPD do not exhibit these features after only a two-year period, indicating that early signs of BPD often abate._


And Misdiagnosis of Personality disorders - RightDiagnosis.com

_Alternative diagnoses list for Personality disorders:

For a diagnosis of Personality disorders, the following list of conditions have been mentioned in sources as possible alternative diagnoses to consider during the diagnostic process for Personality disorders:

Thyroid disorder
Temporal lobe epilepsy
Anxiety disorder
Major depressive disorder
Psychotic disorder
Substance abuse
Bipolar disorder
Personality change due to medical illness

Diseases for which Personality disorders may be an alternative diagnosis

The other diseases for which Personality disorders is listed as a possible alternative diagnosis in their lists include:

Adjustment Disorder
Alcohol abuse
Alcohol Withdrawal
Anxiety
Anxiety attack
Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder
Bipolar disorder
Borderline Personality Disorder
Bulimia nervosa
Chronic pelvic pain
Depression
Dysthymia/seasonal depression disorder, PND
Mania
Schizophrenia

Personality disorders: Medical Mistakes

Related medical mistakes may include:

Concentration -- Health Mistakes
ADHD -- Health Mistakes
ADHD (Adults) -- Health Mistakes
Depression -- Health Mistakes
Bipolar -- Health Mistakes
Sleep Disorders -- Health Mistakes
more mistakes...»

Personality disorders: Undiagnosed Conditions

Commonly undiagnosed conditions in related areas may include:

Brain & Neurological Disorders: Undiagnosed:
Adult ADHD -- Undiagnosed - Often remains undiagnosed through to adulthood.
ADHD -- Undiagnosed
Alzheimer Disease -- Undiagnosed
Migraine -- Undiagnosed
Concentration Disorders -- Undiagnosed
Stroke -- Undiagnosed
Bipolar Disorder -- Undiagnosed
Schizophrenia -- Undiagnosed
Epilepsy -- Undiagnosed_


----------



## diwali123

Personally I think my ex has borderline, passive aggressive disorder, asperger's, ADHD, brain damage, depression, addiction, and assh0le personality disorder. 
He has symptoms of all of those things. But ultimately it doesn't matter what he has, everyone has choices to make. And he made his. 
And he chose not to get help after a decade of me begging him until it was too late. 
I guess I fail to see what a diagnosis has to do with it. I am a depressive and was molested, I have had PTSD and anxiety. Does that give me the right to treat other people like dirt and expect them to still love me and stay with me, 
No because I chose to get better and to get help. And I had morals that told me that you don't emotionally abuse other people. 

I don't buy the excuses. It's a matter of character.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Waking up to life's update*



diwali123 said:


> Personally I think my ex has borderline, passive aggressive disorder, asperger's, ADHD, brain damage, depression, addiction, and assh0le personality disorder.
> He has symptoms of all of those things. But ultimately it doesn't matter what he has, everyone has choices to make. And he made his.
> And he chose not to get help after a decade of me begging him until it was too late.
> I guess I fail to see what a diagnosis has to do with it. I am a depressive and was molested, I have had PTSD and anxiety. Does that give me the right to treat other people like dirt and expect them to still love me and stay with me,
> No because I chose to get better and to get help. And I had morals that told me that you don't emotionally abuse other people.
> 
> I don't buy the excuses. It's a matter of character.


And that is exactly my point. By assigning conditions and disorders to people that they haven't been diagnosed with and may not have we are dehumanizing them. It has been suggested that Waking's husband has BPD. Whether he does or not ultimately it's not as important as what choices he's made. His lack of action has precipitated this crisis and now he has to deal with it. By hypothesizing that he has BPD it would not only remove much of the responsibility of the choices he has made but it also would suggest that Waking would be a fool to even entertain the idea of reconciliation. However if he accepts his role in the breakdown of the marriage and mends his ways it gives hope that the marriage might be salvaged.


----------



## MsStacy

WUTL...how are you doing?


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## Madman1

OMG bfree you are a better man than I am, I would be banned by now.

You have made a real contribution to this thread and done it with restraint and grace, well done!


----------



## SlowlyGettingWiser

WUTL:

How are you doing? Are you feeling better? Son been over to see your place yet? Hope you're okay...drop us a line when you can!

*hugs*
SGW


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## Waking up to life

I'm doing ok everyone. I've just been very busy. I'll update when I can but didn't want anyone to worry 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon Pink

WUTL,

If anyone I had a relationship with had a spouse with borderline, I would do everything in my power to get them to leave. I would not want ANYONE I cared about to live like that. It is pure crazy making. It destroys your ability to see clearly, think clearly, and have any sort of confidence in your own perception.

I would urge them to get out and stay out of crazy town.

Yes, there are people who have been misdiagnosed. But unless/until the spouse begins the very long and arduous process of getting a clear dx and beginning appropriate treatment, there is no hope, what so ever, that being with them will be anything less than living in crazy town.

I worry about your son, but you seem to have a handle on that.

Thinking positive thoughts for you...


----------



## Uptown

bfree said:


> All the posts in this thread seem to indicate that his condition of BPD was confirmed here on TAM by well meaning but distant people.


Bfree, please refrain from these broad-brush criticisms of all the other respondents in this thread. Nobody has claimed that Waking's H has been diagnosed with having BPD. Moreover, nobody has claimed that they are able to make such a diagnosis. If you want to disagree with another TAM member, please be courteous enough to quote the actual statement you are disagreeing with -- and refrain from creating straw men that you can easily knock down.


> It has been suggested that Waking's husband has BPD.


Again, I am unaware of anyone who has claimed that the H definitely has BPD. Some of us have suggested that, if Waking spots strong occurrences of BPD traits, she consult with a professional about the possibility of BPD. You, for example, state "It is clear that Waking's husband needs to go back to counseling in order to reevaluate his bi-polar disorder and to investigate the possibility of BPD."


> All the posts in this thread seem to indicate that his condition of BPD was confirmed here on TAM by well meaning but distant people.


No, none of the posts "indicates" that. If I am mistaken and you find such a statement, please quote it -- in the same way that I am responding to specific statements you have made.


> By assigning conditions and disorders to people that they haven't been diagnosed with and may not have we are dehumanizing them.


Really? Why is it that Waking is "dehumanizing" her H when recognizing his BPD traits -- but you are NOT dehumanizing anyone when you do the very same thing with your own family member? You state _"Actually a close family member of my wife is currently being evaluated for BPD. Ironically it was information posted by Kathy that helped us to recognize the symptoms" _(post #254).

As I said, Waking is not "assigning disorders" to her H but, rather, simply spotting the warning signs for BPD, i.e., recognizing strong occurrences of BPD traits. There is a world of difference between making a diagnosis and simply spotting the traits. There is nothing subtle about traits such as temper tantrums, verbal abuse, and irrational jealousy. This is why you were able to spot these symptoms in your family member even though you did not attempt to diagnose him.

Moreover, how can it possibly be "dehumanizing" to say that a man is exhibiting strong BPD traits? These traits are basic human behaviors that every human on the planet exhibits throughout childhood and adulthood. This is why BPD is said to be a "spectrum disorder," which means that we all exhibit the nine traits to some degree.


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## bfree

Uptown, feel free to comb through all of Waking's 38 threads if you'd like. It was suggested to me in order to get a better understanding of her situation so I make the same suggestion to you. My only point was cautionary advice for Waking to not make lifelong or permanent decisions based on facts not in evidence or on hypothetical suppositions by anyone outside of those who are directly involved. However, since it has been pointed out to me that this is an update thread and not a debate thread I will be confining my remarks to Waking or posting information that I feel she may benefit from. If you should decide to create a thread for debating these issues I would gladly participate.


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## pink_lady

I think WUTL is going to make her decisions based on how the 19 years she's lived with her husband have affected her life. 

He clearly has personality problems, whatever you call them. It matters less whether a doctor "officially" diagnoses him or not.


----------



## bfree

pink_lady said:


> I think WUTL is going to make her decisions based on how the 19 years she's lived with her husband have affected her life.
> 
> He clearly has personality problems, whatever you call them. It matters less whether a doctor "officially" diagnoses him or not.


Since this directly applies to Waking and her situation I will reply.

This is of course very true but it does affect her decisions regarding reconciliation vs. divorce. If Waking's husband had been or is diagnosed with a personality disorder then I would probably believe that divorce might be her best course especially considering what she's already been through. Waking is obviously a very strong and caring person but I doubt dealing with someone diagnosed with a personality disorder would be in her best interests going forward. However, if the current separation acts as a wakeup call for her husband and he uses this crisis as a turning point for himself then maybe the marriage is still salvageable. For instance, Waking's husband has already been diagnosed with the hormonal imbalance Hypogonadism, but has thus far refused treatment. If he should decide to begin an Androgen regiment or start receiving injections of Testosterone Enanthate, his entire persona might revert back to the man that she originally fell in love with. I've seen this happen in several cases, some right here on TAM. In that case it is possible that Waking might decide a future with him is something she would be amenable to. So even though she justifiably has built up resentment over her recent treatment in this marriage Waking's husband's diagnosis very much affects her future decisions and how it will affect her life.


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## Uptown

bfree said:


> Uptown, feel free to comb through all of Waking's 38 threads if you'd like.


I've already done so. That's how I am able to produce actual statements that other members have said. I am only asking that you extend me -- and the other respondents on this thread -- the same courtesy. Instead of creating straw men to knock down, you would be more credible if you would cite specific statements that we actually said.


> My only point was cautionary advice for Waking to not make lifelong or permanent decisions based on facts not in evidence or on hypothetical suppositions by anyone outside of those who are directly involved.


If that were your only point I would have simply agreed with you. What I object to are your unsupported, broad-brush criticisms of other respondents on this thread.


> If you should decide to create a thread for debating these issues I would gladly participate.


Waking already created that thread last December. That's where I first started the discussion of BPD traits (on Dec 27) with Waking in my post at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/consid...motionally-dependent-husband.html#post1315913. If you find mistakes in my statements there, please quote the erroneous sentences and explain the errors. I will be happy to respond in that same thread.


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## bfree

Uptown said:


> Waking already created that thread last December. That's where I first started the discussion of BPD traits (on Dec 27) with Waking in my post at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/consid...motionally-dependent-husband.html#post1315913.


Then perhaps you should be making these posts in that thread?


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## Red2

WUTL, how are things going?


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## SlowlyGettingWiser

Hey, WUTL!

Any updates for us on how you're feeling? Have you been doing some reading and working on your issues?

.


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## Waking up to life

Hi everyone. Sorry for being MIA. I've been doing ok. I kind of took a leave of absence from TAM for the short term, because the emotional turmoil I have been through has been horrifically difficult. Day to day, hour to hour sometimes, I find myself confused...wavering, then back to strong and confident, back to "what he hell have I done?", back to "F*ck everyone, I don't want to deal with anything." 

It's still early in the process. I officially moved out 2 weeks ago today. I'm still settling in. I still have a lot of my stuff at the house. I am still finding it difficult to cope with my H's emotions. He has made remarkable progress for himself in many ways...he's done more to take care of things...the house, the landscaping, our finances...than I have seen him do in YEARS. This week I think things are starting to hit him more, and he's very, very sad. He called me tonight to ask something about a car that is in both of our names. He starts saying again how he misses me so terribly. His voice cracks as he's trying to hold back the tears. I said "I know..." What else do I say? He says "You don't miss me though. Not even a little" and cries. I can't handle his sadness. I care for him...I really do. And I don't want him to be sad. But I cannot comfort him. He is like Eeyore, saying "well I won't bother you anymore tonight...I'm sorry, I'm just having a hard time here at the house all by myself." It's painful to me, and all I can think of is, I want to hang up the phone. I'm not cold and uncaring...I just can't handle it right now. 

My son moved in with me last week. He LOVES our apartment. He gets out, runs, rides his skateboard, he even met up with a friend from school here and they went to a movie on the spur of the moment. The plan is for him to spend the night with my H every Saturday night for now. I asked him if he'd consider staying with his dad for the month of July so they could spend more time together before school started. He really doesn't want to...not because of my H, but because he hates the trailer and says he DOESN'T want to live there. I don't know how to handle that, because it's not fair to my H to not get more time with him. Ugh. 

Finances are nearly 100% separated...just a couple of things we have to split up then we are closing our joint bank accounts and credit card. He has his own bank account now too. He wants to sell the house within the year. I know what he wants...he's hoping that by the time it sells, I'll have changed my mind and I'll let him move in to the apartment with me and we'll all be together again. He's still so attached, I barely feel like we're separated. He's asked to talk with me privately this weekend...I don't know what I'll say, but probably not what he wants me to say. This is so hard. 

As for me...I love my apartment. I love my independence (although not total because of my H's clinginess). I'm working through my emotions. I can't say I'm HAPPY...yet. But I feel more peaceful than I have in years.


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## Openminded

I'm glad to hear things are progressing, Waking. I have been concerned about you during your "break". I know the importance of "peace."

Keeping you in my thoughts.


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## diwali123

I'm glad your son moved in. 
Is your h in counseling? 
You need to set boundaries with him or else there is no point in any of this.


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## Holland

Keep strong Waking, it will get better but it is unbelievably hard at the start.


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## MsStacy

You're such a strong & brave woman. I'm glad you have some peace, and so happy to hear your son is living with you. Stay strong, it will take time for everyone to be comfortable in the new circumstances.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pink_lady

Yay, so glad you and your son both love the new place- that makes a world of difference.

What is it like? Are you buying all new furniture and decor for it?

It always takes so much longer than you think to move all your stuff, esp. when you've been living somewhere for decades.

I'm still moving stuff from my STBXH's house also and I've had my apartment for 2 months!


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## SlowlyGettingWiser

Hey, WUTL!

VERY happy for you and your son! Am glad to hear that he is enjoying the new apartment and is comfortable enough to have a friend stop in! *THAT* is the kind of progress you were looking for when you started this journey!

I wouldn't worry about July...perhaps instead of the WHOLE MONTH, your son would consider spending 2-3 days in a row (Fri-Sun, whatever) with your H at his home. Your son is PRETTY WELL OLD ENOUGH to know what he wants. 

If he is still reluctant, let him get comfy and settled in at the apt for a while, then gently bring up that his dad misses seeing him regularly and maybe he could spend a couple days a week at his dad's. Reiterate that all you want is to ensure that his time with his dad is unimpeded and that they can continue to build a good solid relationship. Then, let him take it from there!

Your H should be looking into counseling, NOW! He needs it and you know it. Hopefully, he recognizes this fact, too. As you become more comfortable living independently and making decisions in the best interest of you & your son, you will have more clarity in both short-term and long-term matters.

*HUGS* and continued good wishes for ALL of you!

[call me if you need to!]

.


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## Mr Blunt

WUTL
You made a very tough decision because you felt nothing was going to change. So far some things have changed and they have changed for the good!!!



> My H is stepping up to the plate in ways I've never seen before
> 
> I'm proud of him for making these beginnings of changes that will hopefully be long lasting. I'm impressed with his attitude and his heartfelt attempts to understand what's going on and to connect with our son


Even though some things have changed for the better, it seems obvious, by your statement below, that you are no where near going back to living with your husband



> I am still finding it difficult to cope with my H's emotions.
> He's still so attached, I barely feel like we're separated.





> As for me...I love my apartment. I love my independence (although not total because of my H's clinginess).
> I feel more peaceful than I have in years


Considering the circumstances, WUTL did the hard and brave thing in order to change things for the better.

I think that this situation points out something very important in a marriage relationship. This is what I think it points out:

*1	It is extremely important that a person improve themselves so that they are able to make sufficient contributions to a marriage and not be a clinger and a detriment to the relationship.*

I know the above statement is no great epiphany but how many times have we read on this forum about one marriage partner not getting the help to improve or not improving themselves in order to be more of a contributor than a taker or a clinger?


A marriage relationship is not like the relationship with God or in some cases your mommy. In a marriage you either produce more than you take or you will probably have a serious break in the relationship. *Unconditional love does not exist in marriages.*

Since a lot of this forum is about giving thoughts and opinions here is mine.


*Don’t be lazy but try to improve yourself every chance you get. The bottom line is that most of the quality of your life is pretty much on you and not on anyone else.*

The closer you can get to self sufficiency the better you are to weather storms in a marriage and in life in general!


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## MsStacy

I was thinking about you today WUTL. 

It's been awhile, how are you doing?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faithful Wife

Yes, hope you are well, WUTL.

.


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## Red2

Me too. Every day I check for updates.


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## Waking up to life

Hey sorry again. Lots of emotional sh*t. H is constantly on my heels begging to win me back. He sobs, cries, begs, gets angry, sarcastic, accusatory...all the way back to saying he loves me and wants me back so bad. He's angry at how I went about leaving him...said it was cold and heartless to not even give him a chance. I'll try to write more later, but for now, know that I'm ok and working through things. It still sucks. But my apartment is nice and I feel at peace here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown

Waking, I'm glad to hear you are safe and are enjoying your peaceful apartment. I also am pleased that you are establishing strong personal boundaries and enforcing them. I wish you the best -- it's good that you are learning how to take care of yourself for a change.


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## Openminded

Waking up to life said:


> Hey sorry again. Lots of emotional sh*t. H is constantly on my heels begging to win me back. He sobs, cries, begs, gets angry, sarcastic, accusatory...all the way back to saying he loves me and wants me back so bad. He's angry at how I went about leaving him...said it was cold and heartless to not even give him a chance. I'll try to write more later, but for now, know that I'm ok and working through things. It still sucks. But my apartment is nice and I feel at peace here.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm glad to hear you are okay and working through things. I think it was predictable he would react the way he has and it's good that you were as prepared as it's possible to be for these things. 

Keeping you in my thoughts.


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## Faithful Wife

Thank you for the quick update. This is a really difficult time.


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## Red2

Waking up to life said:


> H is constantly on my heels begging to win me back. He sobs, cries, begs, gets angry, sarcastic, accusatory...all the way back to saying he loves me and wants me back so bad. He's angry at how I went about leaving him...said it was cold and heartless to not even give him a chance.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He really should put all that energy into bettering himself instead, losing weight and doing IC. Actions speak louder than words. You gave him plenty of chances, but he never thought you were serious.... Now he whines.  Hang in there, you are doing the right thing.


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## diwali123

Send him a link about doing a 180?


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## MsStacy

It's good to know you have peace in your apartment. Doing "ok" is going down the path to doing better and then doing well. I wish you the best.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SlowlyGettingWiser

Hey, WUTL!

Am happy that your new apartment is PEACEFUL and homey for you & your son!

As long as you're feeling at peace with your decision and feeling stronger and more hopeful for a happy future, then you know you're doing alright.

I'm not sure I'd send your H a link to the 180 only because *I* believe he'll see it as a 'recipe' to get back with you. If he does it, it will be with the 'understanding' (in HIS mind) that you'll get back with him in the way HE wants if he only does the 180. If you decide NOT to reconcile with him, he will feel that you lied to him or led him on.

Just my take on it!

Enjoy the holiday and keep taking it a day/week at a time.

*hugs*


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## Waking up to life

Well I'm now about 5 weeks out from leaving my husband and my home of nearly 20 years. All I can think is what the f*ck is wrong with me that I could leave behind 20 years of my life just like that and not look back? Do I miss him? No. Shouldn't I at least have a little twinge of sadness or miss some of our happy times? Tonight I am alone. And I'm feeling like a cold hearted b*tch for ripping the rug from under him like I did. I don't want him back. I just wish I didn't have to hurt him so much. 

He still clings to the hope that I'll begin to miss him and want to work things out. He continues to try to make me responsible for his emotions. Last Sunday he stopped by my apartment unannounced "to talk" (he texted me). I wasn't home. I never replied. I felt cornered by that...he wanted me to text him and ask what he wanted to talk about, apologize for not being there, etc. I didn't want to have to answer to him. So Tuesday he called to talk about arrangements for me to pick up my son. He said he was so hurt that I didn't try to contact him. He said 'we are still married and we should try to be in contact regularly.' 

Anytime I talk to him, he tells me how much he misses me, how desperately he wants me back, how hard it's been on him to have to try to get the house ready to sell, how confused he is about all of this, etc. He is manipulative by saying "I miss you" when we're physically together and fishing for a return response from me. When I don't say "I miss you too" he points it out and says "see, you don't even miss me at all do you?" If I do say "I miss you" he says "Well, if you miss me, why don't you come home then?"

Just now, as I was writing this, he texted me, upset that he found out I brought our son out to his friend's house, which is right down the street from my husband, but I didn't stop in at the house to talk to him. "It would've been a good time for us to talk privately" he said. I just said "I'm sorry to have let you down once again." 

So I'm up for any advice: how much "private talk" time should I agree to? How often should I expect to be in contact with him? Not one week has gone by since I left that I haven't spoken to him and/or seen him at LEAST twice a week. I just can't handle his sobbing and wanting to talk about "the future" and him asking if I've thought any more about us, on and on. I asked him to see a counselor by himself. He refused up til a few days ago...his job offers an Employee Assistance Program and he's decided to take advantage of that. But he wants me to go with him. I said no. He needs to go by himself for a while. He was disappointed. I'm sure he thought if he could get me to go with him, he'd have me captive and I'd have to talk about things and hear his sad story and maybe it would be a step in reconciling. 

How much privacy and lack of "talking" is reasonable for me to ask for? I feel so smothered by him still. Ugh.


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## Lyris

Easy.

Tell him you don't miss him when he asks.

Zero private talking time, except about your son.

It's not doing him any favours, it's just keeping his hopes up that you'll come back.

Have you really told him you've left? Not a trial separation with the focus on getting back together, that you've left him? 

If you've left, do him a favour and stop stringing him along.


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## Openminded

He thinks you will come back. If you know for certain you aren't then he needs to know. Otherwise his behavior will continue.


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## Red2

When a friend of mine was getting divorced, he told his STBXW that he only wanted to talk to her about issues relating to their son. Nothing else left to talk about.... When she tried to give him a hard time about anything else, he said, 'Is this about Jimmy? If not, I am hanging up!' And he did until she got the message...


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## Mavash.

Look its hard no doubt but I agree that you need to baby step your way to telling the truth.

His pain can't be avoided however I have little sympathy for him. How many times did you try to fix this to no avail?

This is his own doing. He could have done something but chose not to.


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## diwali123

If you know that you don't want him back you need to be upfront and just tell him that, don't string him along.


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## Waking up to life

When I first left him, I told him my intention was to file for divorce. He was so devastated and he begged me not to file right away, to please just hold off for a little while and let things settle a bit before I did that. I agreed to hold off but could not make any promises. 

He wants me back more than anything. He wants to be given a chance to show me that he can change, that he has changed and is trying to understand my needs better. The problem is that because he is so devastated and hurt, all of our interactions are painful, sad, depressing, and guilt-ridden. 

If I'm stringing him along, it's not intentional. I'm holding off at his request. It's only been 5 weeks for god's sake. I'm as emotionally torn up and confused as anyone, and as much as he thinks he needs to see me constantly, I feel like I need some distance to more objectively think about things. I have yet to get any real space from him. I'm doing the best I can, that's all I can say.


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## diwali123

How much do you want to talk to him? 
IIWY I would tell him in person that the point of the separation is for you to get space and perspective. Tell him that you need this time for yourself. 
If it were me I would say that your interactions with him aren't productive, they aren't helping you or him. The crying and begging has to stop. 

If you don't want to see him or talk to him, tell him. Tell him he is not allowed to come to your apartment and he shouldn't expect you to show up at his house either. 

There is no right answer, only what YOU want and need.


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## Mavash.

Hence why I said "baby step".

I have no doubt you are doing the best you can do.

Isn't that what all of us do each and every day?


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## Openminded

Tell him you need space. Tell him no communication except for your son -- and enforce that boundary when he oversteps it as he constantly will.


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## diwali123

That means if he calls to talk about son and starts crying or begging, say "I'm sorry you feel that way, I have to go now." 
Don't answer texts that aren't about your son. 
If he cant adhere to that he is being stalkerish.


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## tryingtobebetter

Waking up to life said:


> When I first left him, I told him my intention was to file for divorce. He was so devastated and he begged me not to file right away, to please just hold off for a little while and let things settle a bit before I did that. I agreed to hold off but could not make any promises.
> 
> He wants me back more than anything. He wants to be given a chance to show me that he can change, that he has changed and is trying to understand my needs better. The problem is that because he is so devastated and hurt, all of our interactions are painful, sad, depressing, and guilt-ridden.
> 
> 
> 
> If I'm stringing him along, it's not intentional. I'm holding off at his request. It's only been 5 weeks for god's sake. I'm as emotionally torn up and confused as anyone, and as much as he thinks he needs to see me constantly, I feel like I need some distance to more objectively think about things. I have yet to get any real space from him. I'm doing the best I can, that's all I can say.[/QUOTE
> 
> ]FWIW I think if I was in your situation I would be thinking that it would take at least six months before I had my head clear enough to be calm and objective.
> 
> Best wishes


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## Mr Blunt

*How much privacy and lack of "talking" is reasonable for me to ask for?*
Whatever private and lack of “talking” time that is best for you is the answer. You have tried for 6 months including professional counseling and the situation has not changed enough. *More ACTIONS are needed not talking!*


One of the main problems that you have mentioned several times throughout this thread is that he has made you totally responsible for his needs. You explained this situation below and that has been one of your major issues with him from the beginning
*I just need to get to a place where I don't feel totally responsible for his emotional needs anymore*.


Even after you moved out and he made some progress he has not totally addressed this issue enough. Just recently you stated 
*He continues to try to make me responsible for his emotions*


You described some of his emotional actions as
*He is constantly on my heels begging to win me back. He sobs, cries, begs, gets angry, sarcastic, accusatory...all the way back to saying he loves me and wants me back so bad

I feel so smothered by him still. Ugh*


I know that this is just one of the issues in your marriage but *until he permanently and significally improves in this area and proves it by ACTIONS, I do not think that a successful reconciliation is going to occur*.

Many people talk about love in a marriage but gloss over self respect and self reliance. *The fact is that love cannot be strong without self respect and self reliance*. I do not see how a man can have self respect when he makes his wife totally responsible for ALL his emotional needs.

Waking up to Life (WUTL) has taken a very tough step and has opened up the opportunity for her husband and herself to change and get much better. That will be for his and her own good and everyone else they have a relationship with.* I do not know of anyone that can have a healthy relationship when one is sucking the emotional life out of the other, do you?*


Like I said this is only one of the major issues but I believe that this issue should be given his utmost attention. The husband does have some very good traits about him but his being an emotional wimp is nullifying those very good traits of his.

This post is not to say that WUTL does not have issues she needs to work on it is just that she asked a question that led to this very obvious roadblock that the husband can do something about. I believe that the husband can get his wife back but he is going to have to really make a change in his emotional status first. *They will both have to makes some changes in order to put this family back together. This family can be saved, JMO*


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## Red2

Any updates? How are you doing? I think about you often.


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## Uptown

:iagree:Yes, Waking, how are you doing?


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## SlowlyGettingWiser

WUTL,

Are you and your son still doing alright?


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## JustSomeGuyWho

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> WUTL,
> 
> Are you and your son still doing alright?


Pretty sure we've heard the last from her.


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