# If you were NMMNG or kind of like that, what did your spouse do



## yellowstar (Jun 18, 2012)

when you tried to change?


You can search my old threads but the past years of husband's behaviors of trying to placate me and tell me what I wanted to hear have all come back to hurt us like I said they would...

I'm trying on my part to BE open ears, non reactive, just listening so he can communicate with me...

Husband said he will go to IC about communicating. Lot of how he was raised led him to be like this but I need HONESTY. I need NO lying about anything, friendships with co-workers or anything in the slight, I'd rather KNOW about instead of finding out on my own.


So in the meantime, what do I do? I'm worried because he tells me things like "I know myself, I would never hurt you or cheat on you or anything like that". I told him that a married couple shouldn't have opposite sex friends as their MAIN support, and that having loose or very open boundaries is a recipe for disaster. He thinks he would never do anything and doesn't see it like me, he thinks I see it differently because I was cheated on by others in the past (true) but I still think not having strong boundaries and having friendships with the opposite sex as a main friend (because he doesn't have other friends and he mostly works with females) is a potential for disaster.

Any advice?


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

OK, I have to ask, what is NMMNG?


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

I'm assuming he means "No More Mr. Nice Guy"


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## yellowstar (Jun 18, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> I'm assuming he means "No More Mr. Nice Guy"


Yes. 


Also tonight I told him I will start trusting him again (or do my best to) and allow him to earn my trust back. I hope this wasn't a stupid decision because of our past BUT I feel like tgats the ONLY way to move on. This is hard for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Yellowstar, it seems to me in reading some posts that he wants to have his cake and eat it too. The defensiveness, only telling you what either he wants to or what he wants you to hear is a sign of someone who is 100% unrepentant and really doesn't give a damn. So long as he gets his way. And this is part & parcel of his addictive behavior. He cannot feed his addictions unless it is on his terms. And part of those terms is for you to see him a certain way and to trust him. 

I don't know a nice way to say this but you have a deeply subtly deceptive and manipulative guy there. Were it me, I'd walk away and I can guarantee you he isn't going to change.


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## yellowstar (Jun 18, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> Yellowstar, it seems to me in reading some posts that he wants to have his cake and eat it too. The defensiveness, only telling you what either he wants to or what he wants you to hear is a sign of someone who is 100% unrepentant and really doesn't give a damn. So long as he gets his way. And this is part & parcel of his addictive behavior. He cannot feed his addictions unless it is on his terms. And part of those terms is for you to see him a certain way and to trust him.
> 
> I don't know a nice way to say this but you have a deeply subtly deceptive and manipulative guy there. Were it me, I'd walk away and I can guarantee you he isn't going to change.



Are you sure about this? I'm reading this and feel absolutely crippled. I'm 8 months pregnant. What do I do now? I feel like my stomach was just ripped out of me reading this...

I always had hope. Now what? I am out of answers, I am shaking reading this


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## yellowstar (Jun 18, 2012)

I wrote this post this morning...

does it clarify anything?

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/84537-can-someone-help-me-explain-boundary-him.html


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## yellowstar (Jun 18, 2012)

The only think I can think of to move past this is to LET GO of the past and work on improving our communication, marriage and us individually...

I don't know. I hope I'm not being naive but I know he didn't fully betray me on his own...I know I did things to make our marriage not so good either. I hope this is not rationalization but I am trying to be truly objective and face the truth with all of this.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

yellowstar said:


> The only think I can think of to move past this is to LET GO of the past and work on improving our communication, marriage and us individually...
> 
> I don't know. I hope I'm not being naive but I know he didn't fully betray me on his own...I know I did things to make our marriage not so good either. I hope this is not rationalization but I am trying to be truly objective and face the truth with all of this.


Are you in counseling?

My armchair psychotherapist perspective is that you _can't_ move on, you _can't_ let go ... 

The other problem is that this issue between the two of you is contributory.

In other words, your issues surrounding jealousy and abandonment and his NMMNG tendencies, being a people pleaser, can be a loaded combination.

Simple question.

Does your husband love you?
How?
How does he show you?

Now ... you answer the same questions.


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## yellowstar (Jun 18, 2012)

Deejo said:


> Are you in counseling?
> 
> My armchair psychotherapist perspective is that you _can't_ move on, you _can't_ let go ...
> 
> ...



Yeah you pretty much hit the nail on the head, this combination of problems is HORRIBLE for me. I can't let go, that is true...but the ONLY way to move forward is to LET GO. 

No, I'm not in IC, I know I need to do this...like find someone today and call to make an appt. I'm nervous about finding someone who doesn't get it...I've gone in the past and found some subpar therapists but that's not an excuse. I promise to myself to make calls today. 

He does love me...he tells me, he understands when I talk to him, stay up late talking to me about communicating better, he encourages me to do what makes me happy (career wise, free time wise, whatever it is), he does things for me (small but noticeable things--randomly pick me up ice cream I like, get flowers once in awhile, send a random text/email to say he loves me or thinks I'm beautiful), he explained to me why he was more physical with me before and how because I turned him down so many times he took that as I was just not as interested as he was...so now that I feel HD and worried he isn't, he is happy I communicated this with him so we can be a lot more physical now, he listens to what I have to say or if I am upset about something and he tries to make some changes so we're happy. He is slowly telling me more of HIS opinion, regardless of how I feel and understands placating me is not going to work long term. I think he's proud of me because of the way he talks about me or tells other people stories about me/us. He hasn't wavered about he feels about me, he said his life is better because I'm in it and wants to keep it that way. He knows I like hugs/kisses more often and he is trying to do that, because it doesn't come naturally to him. He wants me to be happy, I feel like he understands me, he is patient with me etc. 

^^^I am pretty confident those things express his love for me. I hope evidence of someone loving me isn't some big secret that I don't get...because I think the above is what love is.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Had you answered that he avoids you, shuts down on you, belittles you or is disrespectful, it would certainly paint a different picture.

My overall point ...

If this man loves you, and you love him, do not actively feed behavior that will that will torpedo that.

Does he have some work to do on his boundaries regarding the women he interacts with at work? Maybe ... probably. Is he actively looking to sabotage his marriage and betray you? Doesn't sound like it at all.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Yellowstar, I forgot you were 8 months along. Had I been more astute I would have probably been more supportive.

It wouldn't change my opinion, but for now I say concentrate on a healthy baby and what support you do get from your husband and see how things play out.


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## yellowstar (Jun 18, 2012)

Deejo said:


> Had you answered that he avoids you, shuts down on you, belittles you or is disrespectful, it would certainly paint a different picture.
> 
> My overall point ...
> 
> ...


Yes he loves me, he doesn't shut me down, he doesn't avoid, he definitely does NOT belittle me or disrespect me at all...he is very receptive, open to working on us, himself, patient while I work on myself etc. 

Yes he has some issues/boundaries to work on and I can be patient with him. He isn't looking to hurt me...

I have issues to work on as well, I can accept we both need to improve some areas and we are positive about our future. 



thatbpguy said:


> Yellowstar, I forgot you were 8 months along. Had I been more astute I would have probably been more supportive.
> 
> It wouldn't change my opinion, but for now I say concentrate on a healthy baby and what support you do get from your husband and see how things play out.


Thanks BP, I will continue working on myself and having an open dialogue with him. The past week has been very good in terms of us talking, improving etc.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

“If you were NMMNG or kind of like that, what did your spouse do when you tried to change?”
I have sort of lol’d after reading the rest. 

The answer: My wife tried to dictate and/or direct what changes she wanted out of me. Sort of what you are doing yes? 

People do not change unless they really want to change. It is an internal process, otherwise he’s just doing this out of consideration of you; Pacifying and continuing the NG tendancies of manipulating you to see us in how we think you want to see us... chameleons. The best thing that happened for me to really change was that I stopped caring what my wife thought and hated where I’d ended up by listening to her in the first place. I wanted to change for me and started listening to myself. Most guys from what I can tell going into the program, still don’t go in with both feet... most still temper it to avoid hurting feelings or tarnish their image. 

For me and others, we needed that crisis to really break that our wives were anyone we should listen to or ask “what is wrong with me?” Those answers are always self-serving for the wife.

When those real changes started happening... My wife was pissed. How dare I put myself first instead of the marriage! Now that time has passed, she is beginning to see that ‘what she thought she wants from me’ (in the form of all those little things ‘wrong’) is not really what she truly wants. She really wants someone she can call an true equal and respect. You can't do that following her guidance...


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Racer said: "She really wants someone she can call an true equal and respect. You can't do that following her guidance..."

Doesn't it depend on the wife, though?

Your wife is/was a serial cheater and has BPD (I think?). But if she was a Really Great Woman who showed tact, maturity, faithfulness, love, devotion, respect, equality, etc....then don't you think you (or another husband) could do that, following her guidance?

IMO, I think your wife is not a good example in this case.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Faithful Wife said:


> Your wife is/was a serial cheater and has BPD (I think?). But if she was a Really Great Woman who showed tact, maturity, faithfulness, love, devotion, respect, equality, etc....then don't you think you (or another husband) could do that, following her guidance?
> 
> IMO, I think your wife is not a good example in this case.


No... wife not BPD, but is self-centered. She was SA, but wasn’t always. Our first 5 years were normal marriage mode. My NG’s ways though set up a lot of those things that fed right into her SA thinking.

Honestly... I’d written several paragraphs to respond, but didn’t want to jack the thread. Some NG traits that led to our downfall.

NG’s don’t ask for help... So, we don’t complain that much unless we’ve tried fixing it our way first and it’s failed. Then it usually comes out as whining or a dry rationalized speech. So on your end, you don’t know how we really feel. We don’t “bother you” with it and “pick battles”. That allows you to feel you are doing an adequate job... if you weren’t, wouldn’t we say something that is bothering us? Nope... NG’s stay quiet and do not open up if we think you’ll be offended or think us selfish.

NG’s are a chameleon. We morph into whom we think you’ll like best and hide what we don’t think you’ll dislike about us.

NG’s tend to be attracted to strong women. You go after what you want and aren’t bashful about it. See those traits above... bad mix for us. We typically go into doormat mode thinking we need to meet your every want. 

And the biggy. ENTITLEMENT. Your NG husband put you up there on a pedestal and allowed the marriage to become about what you want. “If my wife is happy, I am happy!” baloney. Give it a few years and you won’t question why you lord over this realm. In your head, you are the responsible one having to do all this while your husband flounders around if you don’t give him direction. Long gone is equality and respect..........

Then the next step for my wife.... I was a worthless lazy man holding her back. So starts the ‘why’ the marriage isn’t working. Not her fault... but mine. 

So yes and no. My story at the beginning is very much like most NG’s and their experiences. That is why that book talked to most of us on a deeper level.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

I did get a bit off topic there Yellowstar with my rant yesterday. I have been involved with the NMMNG stuff since ‘09 as well also advising several of them. (Not to be confused with them taking that advice...  ) 

The thing about going through the NMMNG or Way of the Superior Man or those kinds of self-help programs is that it will be scary for our spouses. They are all focused on self and “What do I want.” They teach us to be independent. They do more or less set your needs and the needs of the marriage as secondary. 

Hence a spouse’s desire to have input. It’s that input that clouds the problems within us. From a spouse perception; It’s out of insecurity and fear that you worry what we may find is we don’t want you and we’ll become some sort of knuckle dragger. It’s also why the majority hide that they are going through the program from their spouses (a mistake in my head, but most don’t listen). 

What I have typically found though, is if he was a decent guy to start with, he’ll come out that same decent guy. That’s the person you fell in love with. The initial phases are him finding his balance... That’s when it gets most difficult for you as the spouse; We tend to go a bit overboard on the selfishness and are anything but consistent. Eventually, that will temper off though and we’ll step up and do what is right and you’ll like that open book aspect of knowing where we stand on issues instead of having to read between the lines... 

However, he has to want to change. He must feel there’s something wrong and have that resolve and maturity to fix it himself.... Unfortunately, most continue to blame others for why their lives turned out that way. In my opinion, those sorts of programs fail more often than not because he’ll just try to cherry pick certain philosophies and maintain some really bad perceptions about how life and people work.

I do also think it’s possible for you to lead on this. If you are familiar with the principals, they can be adopted to a female perspective. And you can go through it and talk to him about what you are doing, why, and what it’s doing for you. I did that with my own wife and she adopted several things from it and gained better understanding of the ‘big picture’ stuff about how you can change your lot in life without relying on others to bend for you.


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## yellowstar (Jun 18, 2012)

Racer said:


> The thing about going through the NMMNG or Way of the Superior Man or those kinds of self-help programs is that it will be scary for our spouses. They are all focused on self and “What do I want.” They teach us to be independent. They do more or less set your needs and the needs of the marriage as secondary.
> 
> *I know husband gets this but I don't know if he's actually going to do it or even knows how to go about doing it...or if its comfortable for him. I can see him defaulting to what he knows because he basically was like this his whole life...*
> 
> ...


*Do you suggest reading the book WITH him? I don't want to impede on anything or control anything but maybe it will be more manageable and easier to work on together? Not sure...*


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

> I can see him defaulting to what he knows because he basically was like this his whole life...


Depends on him.. I was like that, then not, then was, etc. most of my life. Had a lot to do with my parents expectations, then starting to fail, then getting a f’it attitude, then doing good, then right back into meeting expectations..... So if he’s like me, he’s struggled and rebelled against what others want most of his life. Thing is, with marriage and a family of your own, it feels like you are stuck. Unlike college, where I could change my lifestyle on a whim, I can’t do that when I feel responsible for my family.	



> Can you explain this more thoroughly? Do you mean that that I want to have input but it will cloud the problems he is trying to clear up for himself? Like I want to have input because I'm scared of the guy he will be? Or HE is scared because he will be some other guy that doesn't want me? I'm confused here.


Yes to all. He has to learn that making choices in his best interest won’t lead to the world ending. Generally, NG’s are afraid of making a choice. Think of it like we are working on a “damage control projection” of what the future holds. (Part of why we don’t ask for help and hide stuff too). We aren’t big ‘risk takers’ in relationships.

The best description I can think of to describe the inner workings of a NG is we are a character and the people around us are the writers. We don’t write our own script.

Before you give him direction or point out his weaknesses, you probably should do a bit of inner reflection asking yourself if that is something you want that would help you? If it is, then you might be acting on your own self-interest. I think it’s better if you can phrase stuff in the form of; “I have this problem” and describe how it works in you and the conflict. Then he can figure out if he can help you and must make a choice how he wants to approach it. The key is getting him to make choices and finding solutions his way without putting you in a position to tell him how to do stuff. Remember, you are shooting for an equal and his default is going to be sub-servant. “Just tell me how to help you.” (Ugh...)



> He definitely was/is a decent guy to start with, I want him to work on his NG tendencies but I think it will be hard for him.... (clip)


Don’t beat yourself up too hard. NG’s tend to pick strong willed women. As he goes through the stuff, when done right, he’ll beat himself up quite a lot. “Why did I let her shame me so much!?” ... starting to understand that he should have pushed back just as hard instead of pacifying and downplaying. Had he done that, and made it unpleasant for you to attack him like that, the dynamic would have been much different. 

The first half year or so there is a lot of waffling around, overreaction and underreaction. Hopefully he can find a balance. I’m a bit “weird” in that I’ve changed my argument methods and embraced that I don’t have to be rational and can flat out admit to myself and my wife that I’m being completely irrational and the emotions are the driving factor. She’s learned to not take it personally, as have I. And we “make up” rapidly. The art of arguing has changed dramatically in my marriage. You’ll need to learn how to fight different too..... How to let go of that grudge and find understanding. I started letting them become a “rant” and “emotional dump” instead of an attack. I let my wife see my insanity and behind that wall. A good MC can help there. Look for one that doesn’t preach “peace”, but instead fully accepts there will be arguments. Big emotional, passionate arguments are not a bad thing at all. Better out than in.



> I think he wants to change, or so he says. Actions speak louder than words though right? I know he already blames his parents for being/raising him a certain way but I think he also recognizes he's an adult and can make his own choices now. I don't know if he'll dive in completely or cherry pick certain philosophies or not. I will be happy with him being honest with himself first and therefore more honest/open with me.


Hard to tell... For me, there needed to be that catylst throwing me into the pit before I was really willing to change. Traumatic experiences tend to do that. For the ‘normal guy’... I don’t know how that works exactly. I just know he has to want to change for himself.



> Do you suggest reading the book WITH him? I don't want to impede on anything or control anything but maybe it will be more manageable and easier to work on together? Not sure...


I don’t know. My gut says yes, approach him on it, because doing nothing isn’t going to work. I think Dr. Glover also does seminars. Just keep an open mind about the results. When done right, he is in complete control of himself. And that may not be on the same path as you. And lol... also remember that I, and others, take from it our own impressions. Those may not coincide with how others perceive the message. And since I haven’t ever talked to or met the Doc, it is probable I got an entirely different message than the one he meant; But it works for me none the less...


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## yellowstar (Jun 18, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> I reverse engineered NMMNG with my husband. I see the fear in him so the cure was to set him free. I choose to trust him on his word until he gives me a reason not to.
> 
> He is friends with women at work but he comes home to ME. He isn't hiding, working late on purpose, or doing anything that even remotely resembles cheating. And if he does cheat? So what? I wouldn't be the first nor the last spouse to be cheated on. I have faith that I'd be okay no matter what. I am a good wife in every sense of the word and I can support myself.
> 
> Its all good.



Thanks for this


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