# I wonder how many spouses are just clueless?



## pineapple (Apr 9, 2016)

I didn't sleep well last night and I was thinking about how people come on here, tell their side of the story and then everyone screams that the poster's spouse is cheating.

How many spouses come on here and post stuff because they are completely clueless as to what's really going on in their marriage? They pay no attention to their spouse. They dismiss their spouse. They don't communicate with their spouse. Their spouse talks to them, but they don't/won't listen. They neglect their spouse. They treat their spouse like the hired help (not even as good). Then their spouse decides one day they can't take it anymore. They don't want to sleep with their spouse (meaning not in the same bed, not sex, but perhaps that, too). They stop talking to their spouse like they once did because they weren't being listened to. They go numb and retreat. Suddenly, they wake up and realize their spouse is disengaging and not doing things for them anymore. Boom, they must be cheating.

Wrong! This is me. I've just had enough of the crap. I'm sick of being roommates. I never slept with a roommate so I really don't want to sleep with H. I thought it for years before I literally couldn't take it and asked him to sleep somewhere else. Out of the house was my preference, but I couldn't make him. He acted like it was such a sudden thing. I stopped doing his laundry. I never did my roommates laundry so why should I do his? I stopped letting him know when meals were ready. I never cooked for my roommate so why should I cook for him. The kids are fed and that's my concern and job, not him. I stopped picking up and cleaning up for him. I never did that for my roommate so why would I do it for him. I felt totally used by him. I realize he didn't want me as a wife, but someone to care for him. 

At this point, he thinks I'm mental and that I need help. The reality of it is I need to not be around him anymore. But, in his mind he's awesome and has done nothing wrong. And, to top it off, he tells me doing all of that for him is my job. I'll stop there because I'm going to start cursing.

And, he feels me wanting a D is sudden. Wake the heck up! None of this is sudden.

Rant over.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

What is standing in the way of not being around him anymore?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pineapple (Apr 9, 2016)

jld said:


> What is standing in the way of not being around him anymore?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Working on it. Neither of us will leave the house. It's not the point of my post, though.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

pineapple said:


> They pay no attention to their spouse.
> They dismiss their spouse.
> They don't communicate with their spouse.
> Their spouse talks to them, but they don't/won't listen.
> ...


Very true. This is my life. (I am/was "they") I regret all the wasted years.

NO MORE! I am stepping up to be a better husband.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Pineapple:
What effort did you make to clue in your "roommate" / hubby of your feelings of resentment? 
Did he turn a deaf ear to you when you did or did you expect him to just get it?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

pineapple said:


> Working on it. Neither of us will leave the house. It's not the point of my post, though.


I understand. But it is a likely solution.


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## pineapple (Apr 9, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Pineapple:
> What effort did you make to clue in your "roommate" / hubby of your feelings of resentment?
> Did he turn a deaf ear to you when you did or did you expect him to just get it?


I'm not even going to go there, but he was made very aware of it by me and in counseling for years and years. Again, not the point of my post.

Edited to say I never expect anyone to get it or be a mind reader. That's his PA game, not mine.


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## fireflyme (Apr 15, 2016)

I agree, Pineapple. I could cheat if I want to, but if I leave this marriage, I want it to be with no guilty feelings of being a cheater so I work hard at shutting myself off emotionally so I constantly don't feel rejected by my husband. It's a very lonely world I live in. Not every walk away spouse is a cheater...they simply just have had enough of being in a loveless and unfulfilling marriage


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## pineapple (Apr 9, 2016)

MSprings said:


> I agree that we usually only get have one side of the story. Either here or talking to friends, we only hear it from their point of view. Too often they either omit something or they simply missed something that was there all along. I don't think walk-away spouses are bad but I'm not sure that's what you want.
> 
> It sounds like you just want to jolt your husband awake and make him start appreciating you. That's a good thing. The problem is you've tried so many things and for so long that you are losing hope and think maybe the threat of divorce is the only thing that will wake him up. It probably wake him up but not in a loving and caring way. He'll more likely be defensive and angry. List all the great things he does and blame you for being ungrateful. I guess I'm saying divorce is an ugly card and you shouldn't play it unless you're sure.
> 
> ...


There's nothing left. I'm 1000% done. I have zero feelings for him. I suspect it's mutual. The only thing I don't understand is how he can want to stay married. It's been over two decades of a loveless, sexless marriage. Why wouldn't he want to be with someone that brings him happiness? He says he's content. Then again I believe he's cheating again. Anyway, I'm very sure that I want a divorce. I've never been so sure in my life.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

pineapple said:


> I wonder how many spouses are just clueless?


Overall? The majority of them imo. It's sad.


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## Lukedog (Nov 18, 2015)

In the same boat sista! And I feel every feeling and emotion that you are feeling. I know where you are coming from. Over the years I have brought up the issues to him that needed worked on and ironed out. So he would shake his head and agree and then just leave it...not do anything...not say anything more about it. And as long as I'm not bringing it up any more then life, in his mind, is good. The issue must be resolved. We dont have future plans for what we want to do or where we (our marriage) want to be. We don't discuss those things. We don't have sex, because for him to acknowledge and discuss his ED issue with his WIFE is just too embarrassing. The intimate, emotional connection is lacking in a huge way. He screwed up the finances that he professed he was better at taking care of. He doesn't fix anything around the house (small things, maybe)... but the huge things that need fixing, repaired or replaced .... forget it. He won't even ask friends to help or call a professional. And it's not like he is not aware of these things. So, over time, I have lost trust, respect, faith, and love. And two weeks ago when we had a discussion about a few things, he doesn't have a problem, he doesn't see a problem, he doesn't see the big disconnect between us. I, like you, have just given up. I have guilty feelings right now about leaving, mostly because of our health issues. He had a heart attack 7 months ago and I am currently going through breast cancer. But believe me, being handed the "C" card has really put me in a whole different mindset. Life is too short to be this unhappy. We have wasted at least the last 8 years being stuck in this rut. I'm not wasting any more.


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## Cooper (Apr 18, 2008)

pineapple said:


> I didn't sleep well last night and I was thinking about how people come on here, tell their side of the story and then everyone screams that the poster's spouse is cheating.
> 
> How many spouses come on here and post stuff because they are completely clueless as to what's really going on in their marriage? They pay no attention to their spouse. They dismiss their spouse. They don't communicate with their spouse. Their spouse talks to them, but they don't/won't listen. They neglect their spouse. They treat their spouse like the hired help (not even as good). Then their spouse decides one day they can't take it anymore. They don't want to sleep with their spouse (meaning not in the same bed, not sex, but perhaps that, too). They stop talking to their spouse like they once did because they weren't being listened to. They go numb and retreat. Suddenly, they wake up and realize their spouse is disengaging and not doing things for them anymore. Boom, they must be cheating.
> 
> ...


You are right on the money, I always think the same thing when someone cries about "all this happened out of the blue"or "I was absolutely blind sided"

I can't imagine how you can live with someone day after day and not realize there's a big problem brewing. Seriously what do all those fights and resentments add up to? Happiness?

So yes, many people are clueless by choice or just emotionally stunted.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Back to the "Dr. John 'stupid or evil'" theory... I see a professional journal publication opportunity here 

Seriously, the easiest way to tell is to look at the desire for resolution...


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

I think it is very well spelled out in Men are from Mars, Women from Venus. I think that poor communication is very common....


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Cooper said:


> You are right on the money, I always think the same thing when someone cries about "all this happened out of the blue"or "I was absolutely blind sided"
> 
> I can't imagine how you can live with someone day after day and not realize there's a big problem brewing. Seriously what do all those fights and resentments add up to? Happiness?
> 
> So yes, many people are clueless by choice or just emotionally stunted.


Not so fast.

My ex did the same thing, and claimed to be telling me that there were problems all along.

_Only it never happened._ Down to me interviewing our MC after we separated about the two sessions we went for before we separated -- our marriage literally went from good to meh to gone in 6 months. 

One of the notes my MC had written down in the file is "she seems to be unwilling to talk about why she thinks there are problems in the marriage."

So it does happen. 

I'm sure -- as with @Pinapple -- that there are spouses who say they're unhappy for years and try to fix it and then give up and then their spouses cry foul.

But there are also spouses who walk away saying "I tried to get through to my spouse and they wouldn't listen" when that didn't happen either.

Communication is a two way street.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

If a person is unhappy in their relationship for years and their partner literally has no clue, I think it generally means their partner either doesn't care enough to notice, or doesn't know their spouse well enough to realise they are unhappy which basically also means they didn't care enough to notice. I think more often than not they know their spouse is unhappy but figure that's just how it is and they'll just live like that forever. In the old days, that was often true. People would just live out their unhappy life until they died.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

naiveonedave said:


> I think it is very well spelled out in Men are from Mars, Women from Venus. I think that poor communication is very common....


That book is worthless as bog roll as there is ink all over it.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

pineapple said:


> I didn't sleep well last night and I was thinking about how people come on here, tell their side of the story and then everyone screams that the poster's spouse is cheating.
> 
> How many spouses come on here and post stuff because they are completely clueless as to what's really going on in their marriage? They pay no attention to their spouse. They dismiss their spouse. They don't communicate with their spouse. Their spouse talks to them, but they don't/won't listen. They neglect their spouse. They treat their spouse like the hired help (not even as good). Then their spouse decides one day they can't take it anymore. They don't want to sleep with their spouse (meaning not in the same bed, not sex, but perhaps that, too). They stop talking to their spouse like they once did because they weren't being listened to. They go numb and retreat. Suddenly, they wake up and realize their spouse is disengaging and not doing things for them anymore. Boom, they must be cheating.
> 
> ...


Your "job" huh? 
:wtf:

Is he stepping out on you?

How is this impacting on the children?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pineapple (Apr 9, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> Your "job" huh?
> :wtf:
> 
> Is he stepping out on you?
> ...


Yes, that's what he recently said when I went on "strike" a month or so ago. Nobody cleans up after themselves. They cook and leave it for me. Nobody but me wipes the counters. You get the idea. It was at that point we talked about it he told me that.

I believe he is, but haven't confirmed it.

Nothing is different in their eyes other than they ask why H takes so long at the store anymore. Nothing is different, other than that.


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

The cry of "out of the blue" is all too common. So many factors are involved in long term relationships-throw in the VERY different ways that males and females both communicate and process information....Boom. problems

Marriage takes work, takes effort. It takes time. Familiarity breeds complacency....only the problem is...many only THINK they know their partner completely. We all age and grow and become different people over time. By paying attention to each other, a couple can grow together instead of apart. 

My lifes biggest project is my wife and family...knowing them, understanding them, loving them, creating good memories...because, in reality the only thing we leave behind when we are gone are the memories we have created with those whose lives we have touched. 

Not all memories can be great ones, or even good ones....im shooting for 8 good to 2 bad, overall. I guess well see how thay works out.

If only everyone could appreciated the beauty and almost magical combination of timing and hormones that produce a loving relationship...we would truly understand the value of them. 

I have taught my sons that what people DO, tells you less about them than what they DON'T do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

This whole concept that women don't communicate in a way that a man can understand is BS, imo. As long as both partners speak the same language and are from the same cultural background there should be no misunderstanding.

If an author had to write a his and hers version of every book, there would be far less publishing. And, if both the spouses read the book and can discuss plot, characters etc. then there is no difference in understanding.

It seems 'miscommunication' is another excuse for those who willingly dismiss their partner's concerns. Because they are too prideful to say "I am one stupid SOB".


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> This whole concept that women don't communicate in a way that a man can understand is BS, imo. As long as both partners speak the same language and are from the same cultural background there should be no misunderstanding.
> 
> If an author had to write a his and hers version of every book, there would be far less publishing. And, if both the spouses read the book and can discuss plot, characters etc. then there is no difference in understanding.
> 
> It seems 'miscommunication' is another excuse for those who willingly dismiss their partner's concerns. Because they are too prideful to say "I am one stupid SOB".


That's true to an extent.

Less true if you are dealing with someone who is even a High Functioning Asperger's. For example.

Communicating with someone who has no 'normal' sense of humour and who does not cope well with metaphors or similes (if at all) can be a little wearing on the mind.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

pineapple said:


> Yes, that's what he recently said when I went on "strike" a month or so ago. Nobody cleans up after themselves. They cook and leave it for me. Nobody but me wipes the counters. You get the idea. It was at that point we talked about it he told me that.
> 
> I believe he is, but haven't confirmed it.
> 
> Nothing is different in their eyes other than they ask why H takes so long at the store anymore. Nothing is different, other than that.


If you think he is stepping out on you, this thread will be of help

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/209754-standard-evidence-post.html


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

"Communicating with someone who has no 'normal' sense of humour and who does not cope well with metaphors or similes (if at all) can be a little wearing on the mind."

Sorry, Matt, but that sounds like a real drag.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Pineapple, my guess is your husband is perfectly content to remain in laa-laa land forever. After all, a divorce means an equitable division of earnings made during the marriage, as well as who will get the house or will the house be sold.

I had to deal with this type of situation with my late husband. I finally just had enough and let him have the damn house. My freedom and peace of mind meant more than any house ever could.

Yeah, I was beyond done. And my husband acted somewhat amazed when I told him I was leaving. Our marriage was a sham, it wasn't anything more than two disconnected people occupying the same space.

When I finally came to the conclusion I didn't even want to breathe the same air as him, when I didn't want to be bothered watching him stagger around dead-a$$ drunk most of the time ... then I just walked. No job. No future. No idea of where I would land.

Until his dying day, I don't think my husband ever realized how his lack of ability to connect on any meaningful level with me - along with his progressive downward spiral into alcoholism - contributed to my walking away.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> "Communicating with someone who has no 'normal' sense of humour and who does not cope well with metaphors or similes (if at all) can be a little wearing on the mind."
> 
> Sorry, Matt, but that sounds like a real drag.


It can be.

For example I was explaining an incident at work when someone let slip some information that told staff the truth of the situation and I said: "So the cat was let out of the bag!"

My wife then said: "What cat? That poor cat! Who put him in the bag in the first place?"

I then spent some time explaining that no actual, real cat had been harmed in the creation of that metaphor.


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## lancaster (Dec 2, 2013)

I agree OP. I think some people are all to quick to jump to the "spouse must be cheating" mantra.


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## Phil Anders (Jun 24, 2015)

I think one common element of the out-of-the-blue cluelessness is if a spouse complains/nags a lot but then goes silent. The partner may feel a sense of relief and think, OK, whatever s/he was upset about, s/he obviously got over it, because we're not fighting any more. When in fact the unhappy spouse has completely disengaged and is now looking for an escape route.


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## pineapple (Apr 9, 2016)

Prodigal said:


> Pineapple, my guess is your husband is perfectly content to remain in laa-laa land forever. After all, a divorce means an equitable division of earnings made during the marriage, as well as who will get the house or will the house be sold.
> 
> I had to deal with this type of situation with my late husband. I finally just had enough and let him have the damn house. My freedom and peace of mind meant more than any house ever could.
> 
> ...


I completely agree about him being content. Our marriage is a sham, too, and has been from day 1. There are many days when I can't stand breathing the same air as him. Those are the days I remind myself that there is a light at the end of the tunnel and I'll get there soon enough.


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> This whole concept that women don't communicate in a way that a man can understand is BS, imo. As long as both partners speak the same language and are from the same cultural background there should be no misunderstanding.
> 
> If an author had to write a his and hers version of every book, there would be far less publishing. And, if both the spouses read the book and can discuss plot, characters etc. then there is no difference in understanding.
> 
> It seems 'miscommunication' is another excuse for those who willingly dismiss their partner's concerns. Because they are too prideful to say "I am one stupid SOB".


If this were true many communication issues wouldnt exist...

Like...a wife is venting a bit about something at work..just wants to get it out. The husband begins telling her various ways to fix the problem...that she will handle herself. She then has the complaint that he cant just listen, while he is confused as to why she told him about a problem but didnt want to hear jis solution.

IME...females tend to be collaborayive in the way they process things...talking there way through it. While men tend to identify issue, and propose solutions. Of course this isnt true of every male and female...but true of many.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## VeryHurt (Mar 11, 2011)

blueinbr said:


> Very true. This is my life. (I am/was "they") I regret all the wasted years.
> 
> NO MORE! I am stepping up to be a better husband.


I can see both side of this.
Either "GIVE UP " or "STEP UP."

If I were you, and believe me I don't have the answer, I would do all I could to save my marriage before I pull the plug.

Before things got unbearable in my marriage and before it became too late, I was able to look back 10-20 years ago where I could have been a better partner myself. I missed a lot of signals. (Now, my divorce is nearly final after 33 years and my STBX turned into an epic liar and cheater, so my decision was made up for me.) 

Being alone does have some positive aspects, but it also can be very very lonely.

I suppose I am merely saying to look at BOTH sides as objectively as you can.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Going from a marriage where my wife screamed, cursed and threw things, etc., to get her point across and me not being able to see through all of that unhealthy behavior, to a woman who did not yell at all, but was much more subtle.... Eff yeah! I probably missed a hell of a lot. I tried not to, but it's a two way street and each has to try to speak the others language, not their own. 

However, I did know toward the end, some things, but had no freakin' clue what to do about them. I even told her I needed help to figure out how to handle them properly and she just left it up to me. Well, yeah, it's my responsibility and it's our marriage, or was, so guess what? Things did not get worked on that needed it. Even just a little help would have let me know she was serious and wanted to give it a go, rather than give up. No soap. We are divorced. 

You choose your paths. I chose and she chose. If she was done before she brought that stuff up, no sense telling me about it, is there? That's just hurtful and abusive. Get to the point and be honest. Make your decision and make it known in your spouse's language.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

I was advised by someone familiar with these matters, that while the stereotype is the woman who pleads trying to get her husband to work on things, but he remains oblivious. I was told the truth is it goes both ways equally.
I would believe this. My ex-wife did not take our issues seriously beyond talking. When I acted according to what I said, it kept blindsiding her, as she did not have the association between words and action.
There was a time when if a marriage went wrong, the woman tended to get the blame. Now, that has reversed and the man is seen as the one who has responsibility for the relationship. I am sure it will settle in the middle in time.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

pineapple said:


> Our marriage is a sham, too, and has been from day 1. There are many days when I can't stand breathing the same air as him. Those are the days I remind myself that there is a light at the end of the tunnel and I'll get there soon enough.


It may be painful, like ripping a bandage off. But just remain focused and know that the light at the end of the tunnel is not a train.

From what you have posted, I get the impression you have assets from property you once owned. Does your husband have assets as well? Are they commingled in any way?

You may take a financial hit. Get anything in joint name in yours alone. A good family law attorney can counsel you on what to do before you split.

I survived my sham of a marriage as long as possible. You will know when it's time to pull the plug. Don't look back. Don't regret a thing.

I am happy living my own life my own way. Call me selfish, but it's the only life I'll ever have and nobody is going to tell me how to live it.

And nobody is going to rob me of my happiness or joy EVER. Seriously.


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## pineapple (Apr 9, 2016)

Prodigal said:


> It may be painful, like ripping a bandage off. But just remain focused and know that the light at the end of the tunnel is not a train.
> 
> From what you have posted, I get the impression you have assets from property you once owned. Does your husband have assets as well? Are they commingled in any way?
> 
> ...


I've already had a consult with a lawyer. I won't be taking a financial hit, but H will be.

The only thing that is joint anymore is the house. I started separating finances over a year ago. 

I think it will be more of a relief than pulling off a band-aid.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

Pineapple, it is called narcissism.....they cannot take accountability to their own actions. They have to fault you which is called "projection." Their logic is completely messed up and makes no sense. You doubt yourself and wonder if he is crazy if you are. Dealing with narcissistic people is no easy! Do not doubt yourself and do not play their games.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

I can't believe you people, in this day and age and on a website like this, are still discussing this as though it were some kind of unproven theory that needs investigation. We should be on our 5th generations of books on this topic:

"Walk-Away-Wives and the husbands that had NO CLUE".

As long as this remains a blame-game, divorce rates will remain near 50% and loveless marriages will continue to dominate the other half.

It happens. It's nobody's fault. NOW FIX IT! Or at least document it, so we can prepare newlyweds of BOTH sexes.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

AVR1962 said:


> Pineapple, it is called narcissism.....they cannot take accountability to their own actions. They have to fault you which is called "projection." Their logic is completely messed up and makes no sense. You doubt yourself and wonder if he is crazy if you are. Dealing with narcissistic people is no easy! Do not doubt yourself and do not play their games.


This. THIS is what we need to stop. The blame game.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Macho, too much stereotypes and people from Central Casting for both genders in TAM to make a difference


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

MachoMcCoy said:


> This. THIS is what we need to stop. The blame game.


MachoMcCoy, how is it blaming if the person who is pointing figures away from himself because he cannot take accountability for his own actions to be called narcissistic? How many times does a person have to be thrown under the bus by their own spouse before she/he realizes that their spouse cannot and will not see their part of what has faulted the marriage? When you try to talk to the spouse about issues and you are never heard, what are you supposed to do? Just because two people should work together for the better of a marriage doesn't mean they both will. One can over look the other one faults, believe God will bless her by staying in a miserable marriage with this person who chooses to seek his/her own satisfaction while ignoring his spouse and has no regards for this person's feeling. One day this person wakes up and realizes that this legal bond contract was never a process of sharing and of mutual love but yet we are not supposed to see that? Is that what you are saying? We can take accountability for our own actions and we can only change ourselves but we should not remain blind to the obvious. We have given a brain to think for ourselves and if a spouse is acting in narcissistic ways then by golly there is nothing wrong in calling it exactly that. Until you have lived with a narcissistic person and have dealt with their awful ways of treating people you have no idea how terrible it can be. A person's self worth is severely damaged by a person who is narcissistic.....lies, manipulation, it is incredible but yet we are not supposed to blame. Seeing it as it is in not blame. Placing blame where it does not belong and not standing accountable for your own actions is wrong and is very damaging to marriages.


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## lars2016 (Apr 18, 2016)

It's sad reading so many sad tales of sexless marriages, relationships without passion or attraction.

I'm wondering how many of these are caused by the mentality of "one and done", where people spend so much energy courting / dating the one they really want. Once they catch it, get married, they think "I've made it, I don't need to work so hard any more, I can now focus on work, my hobbies, etc." and forget about working on the relationship.

People then start to de-prioritize each other as mates, let their bodies go, don't dress up for each other on dates, get too hung up on other priorities over each other.

If there's anything I could advise, it's never stop dating your mate. Always court them as if you're forever in the passionate dating stage. Keep yourself in the best physical shape you can, dress to impress. 

Hopefully this can reverse the sad tales of these passionless and loveless marriages that may have started red hot.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You can't date them if they're always freaking out over this or that.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

lars2016 said:


> it's sad reading so many sad tales of sexless marriages, relationships without passion or attraction.
> 
> I'm wondering how many of these are caused by the mentality of "one and done", where people spend so much energy courting / dating the one they really want. Once they catch it, get married, they think "i've made it, i don't need to work so hard any more, i can now focus on work, my hobbies, etc." and forget about working on the relationship.
> 
> ...


absolutely!!!!!


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

john117 said:


> You can't date them if they're always freaking out over this or that.


They would not be freakin out over this and that over absolutely nothing. If you see it as nothing or not worth your time and attention then you then you are not doing your part to tend to your wife and understand her, support her and inturn she will not feel the need to meet your needs....oh, the endless cycle of unmet needs that didn't exist when we were dating or we would not have married!!! So who is willing to give??


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

We have many less needs when dating, because we don't think we deserve as much, yet. The list grows as the relationship lengthens and the two get comfortable in their perceived status within it and self-righteous about what they deserve, instead of grateful for each other.



If you love someone as well as you can, how much more can you love them?




@john117 is dealing with something different than the average troubled marriages.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

MachoMcCoy said:


> I can't believe you people, in this day and age and on a website like this, are still discussing this as though it were some kind of unproven theory that needs investigation. We should be on our 5th generations of books on this topic:
> 
> "Walk-Away-Wives and the husbands that had NO CLUE".
> 
> ...


You made a mess of your marriage because you are a belligerent idiot. Blaming others for not listening does not alter that or make them responsible.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

MachoMcCoy said:


> I can't believe you people, in this day and age and on a website like this, are still discussing this as though it were some kind of unproven theory that needs investigation. We should be on our 5th generations of books on this topic:
> 
> "Walk-Away-Wives and the husbands that had NO CLUE".
> 
> ...


You can't "fix" something if you don't what the cause of the problem is. 

What I've discovered about the "blame-game" is that the people who don't like it are often part of the problem. 

We don't want to be blamed for 2 reasons: Either we are guilty or innocent. For obvious reasons an innocent person doesn't want to be blamed. But the guilty party doesn't want to be blamed either. 

It becomes a "game" when both people are pointing a finger at each other (or someone else). What STOPS the game is the _TRUTH_ and taking responsibility for yourself. 

It starts by removing your ego from the equation.


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## pineapple (Apr 9, 2016)

lars2016 said:


> It's sad reading so many sad tales of sexless marriages, relationships without passion or attraction.
> 
> I'm wondering how many of these are caused by the mentality of "one and done", where people spend so much energy courting / dating the one they really want. Once they catch it, get married, they think "I've made it, I don't need to work so hard any more, I can now focus on work, my hobbies, etc." and forget about working on the relationship.
> 
> ...


THIS!!! 

This is exactly what happened. H literally turned it all off the second we got home from the honeymoon. Never took me on another date except when he was cheating and just for my birthday. The only other dates we went on during our 22 years of marriage were 2 concerts I planned and 1 he planned (he had all of his FB friends drooling over what a great guy he was...if they only knew).

He only wanted a mommy figure. He sure the heck didn't want me.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

AVR1962 said:


> They would not be freakin out over this and that over absolutely nothing. If you see it as nothing or not worth your time and attention then you then you are not doing your part to tend to your wife and understand her, support her and inturn she will not feel the need to meet your needs....oh, the endless cycle of unmet needs that didn't exist when we were dating or we would not have married!!! So who is willing to give??


It's a question of what they aren't doing as much as what they are doing.

My wife has no interest in being "dated" as in her mind that "increases expectations for later and we can't have that" (actual quote)...


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

john117 said:


> My wife has no interest in being *"dated*" as in her mind that *"increases expectations for later* and we can't have that" (actual quote)...


Does it? WOULD it?


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Blondilocks said:


> This whole concept that women don't communicate in a way that a man can understand is BS, imo. As long as both partners speak the same language and are from the same cultural background there should be no misunderstanding.
> 
> If an author had to write a his and hers version of every book, there would be far less publishing. And, if both the spouses read the book and can discuss plot, characters etc. then there is no difference in understanding.
> 
> It seems 'miscommunication' is another excuse for those who willingly dismiss their partner's concerns. Because they are too prideful to say "I am one stupid SOB".


But it is possible. If both are blunt and direct, you are right. But some are not. Some try to communicate using sarcasm. Others wait until they are angry and then yell. Still others pick odd moments to try to talk when their partner is late for work and doesn't pick up on the fact that the talk is to be serious.

Books are a special case. Some are incomprehensible. Some are written so elliptically that the reader needs very close study to understand them.

And then there is the point you make about miscommunication. You are absolutely right.


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## pineapple (Apr 9, 2016)

john117 said:


> It's a question of what they aren't doing as much as what they are doing.
> 
> My wife has no interest in being "dated" as in her mind that "increases expectations for later and we can't have that" (actual quote)...


What expectations? Sex?


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

MarriedDude said:


> If this were true many communication issues wouldnt exist...
> 
> Like...a wife is venting a bit about something at work..just wants to get it out. The husband begins telling her various ways to fix the problem...that she will handle herself. She then has the complaint that he cant just listen, while he is confused as to why she told him about a problem but didnt want to hear jis solution.
> 
> ...


This is so true. I've come to learn that often you are only expected to make sympathetic noises or ask the occasional question. You are NOT expected to offer solutions unless you have been totally and completely been briefed on every nuance of the situation.

Even knowing this I've still, on occasion, gotten myself in trouble, being told that I don't listen followed by a stamping out of the room.

And we weren't even talking about my failings.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Vega said:


> Does it? WOULD it?


In her mind it does. A complement does. A gift does. 

A fvcked up upbringing will do wonders for one's expectations...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

pineapple said:


> What expectations? Sex?


In her warped view of gender relations, yes.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You need to understand her rationale. All men want is sex. All men are predators, present company included. A man and a woman can't be left to their own devices as friends. Woe be to the unlucky male who calls home and asks for her daughter's (homework included).


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

lars2016 said:


> It's sad reading so many sad tales of sexless marriages, relationships without passion or attraction.
> 
> I'm wondering how many of these are caused by the mentality of "one and done", where people spend so much energy courting / dating the one they really want. Once they catch it, get married, they think "I've made it, I don't need to work so hard any more, I can now focus on work, my hobbies, etc." and forget about working on the relationship.
> 
> ...


There's another aspect of this. I'll state it from the male point of view but it works both ways. One gets married, sets up a household, gets a job, enjoys being married and all is well.

After a while children come along. There's no sleep any more. And that's followed by learning to sleep lightly so that you can hear if the baby is crying or coughing or whatever.

Sex becomes more intermittent. Things become habitual. Your wife does laundry on Tuesday. Thursday after work you go shopping. There is no date night because you can't yet afford a baby sitter.

And then, as you begin to see daylight, another baby pops in. You go through the entire sequence again, but now there are two little ones and often you both have to get up to tend to the problem, whatever it is.

You get caught up in playdates, pre-school, special activities. Life becomes "regular". You love your wife and she loves you but neither of you has the habit of saying so any more. You put on a bit of weight and so does she.

Your wife is going stir crazy. She's basically been locked up in the house for five years with two small humans who only speak small human language. You get a baby sitter. But soon you reach a new compromise. She gets to go out with her friends, perhaps to a movie, perhaps just to have dinner with the "girls". You go out with your male friends, sometimes to see those movies your wife doesn't want to see, or sometimes to the local bar for a few beers.

Life is good. You realize that you've been sort of ignoring your wife for a while. And she's been ignoring you too. Yes, you still talk some, and you still go out every so often, but still it is all old hat.

Then you notice that the new woman in the office is sneaking looks at you.

And you notice that your wife is spending more time out than she used to, and sometimes coming home later.

What will happen next? Stay tuned to TAM to find out. It will make a great thread.


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## pineapple (Apr 9, 2016)

john117 said:


> You need to understand her rationale. All men want is sex. All men are predators, present company included. A man and a woman can't be left to their own devices as friends. Woe be to the unlucky male who calls home and asks for her daughter's (homework included).


Seriously? That's F'd up.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

pineapple said:


> Seriously? That's F'd up.


As I said.....

A lot of that was triggered when our daughters began their teen years. All of a sudden clothes became an issue, looks (both girls are magnets ) and all things teen. It did not help that DD 1 looks a near copy of my wife's late sister, who passed away in a car accident during a PA.. And whose passing was, ummm, the beginning of the end for our marriage.

As I said, there's a lot in the saga.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

john117 said:


> In her mind it does. A complement does. A gift does.
> 
> A fvcked up upbringing will do wonders for one's expectations...


I'm not asking about _her_ mind; I'm asking about _YOURS_. 

As I've mentioned before, it seems to at least SOME men (possibly MANY) that doing the dishes = getting sex. 

And yes, agreeing to going on a date (married or not) could also = sex at the end of the date.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

john117 said:


> You need to understand her rationale. All men want is sex. All men are predators, present company included. A man and a woman can't be left to their own devices as friends. Woe be to the unlucky male who calls home and asks for her daughter's (homework included).


So, all men in reality do NOT want sex if they get married?

John, in all honesty I don't think your wife's "rationale" is completely off-base. Teenage boys want sex. Most of them aren't looking to get married, make babies or even cultivate a meaningful relationship with a teenage girl. His hormones are raging and he wants a release and wants the girl to "provide". 

I don't know of many boys OR men who DON'T want sex _eventually_. It seems to be the bottom line for many of them to get into a relationship in the first place. Heck, every single teenage boy and man I dated wanted sex! (No, I didn't have sex with MOST of them, much to their disappointment)

And considering how many men out there will stop dating a woman, dump their girlfriend or divorce their wives for NOT providing them with sex, is it really any WONDER why your wife thinks the way she does?


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## pineapple (Apr 9, 2016)

john117 said:


> As I said.....
> 
> A lot of that was triggered when our daughters began their teen years. All of a sudden clothes became an issue, looks (both girls are magnets ) and all things teen. It did not help that DD 1 looks a near copy of my wife's late sister, who passed away in a car accident during a PA.. And whose passing was, ummm, the beginning of the end for our marriage.
> 
> As I said, there's a lot in the saga.


That's F'd up, too. So sorry.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Vega said:


> I'm not asking about _her_ mind; I'm asking about _YOURS_.
> 
> As I've mentioned before, it seems to at least SOME men (possibly MANY) that doing the dishes = getting sex.
> 
> And yes, agreeing to going on a date (married or not) could also = sex at the end of the date.


That may be a common mindset but I know better, and I know she knows I know.

Basically she does not see the point. Therefore, it's a plot. I must have some insidious reason. Therefore, something not wholesome.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Vega said:


> So, all men in reality do NOT want sex if they get married?
> 
> John, in all honesty I don't think your wife's "rationale" is completely off-base. Teenage boys want sex. Most of them aren't looking to get married, make babies or even cultivate a meaningful relationship with a teenage girl. His hormones are raging and he wants a release and wants the girl to "provide".
> 
> ...


Methinks you're moving the goalposts here. Our context is dating while married. But my wife's context sees no difference between a husband dating his wife, a teenager guy studying calculus with her daughter, or a teenager guy taking the daughter for prom. 

Growing up in a theocracy will do it...


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

Mr The Other said:


> You made a mess of your marriage because you are a belligerent idiot. Blaming others for not listening does not alter that or make them responsible.


And so it continues...


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

AVR1962 said:


> MachoMcCoy, how is it blaming if the person who is pointing figures away from himself because he cannot take accountability for his own actions to be called narcissistic? How many times does a person have to be thrown under the bus by their own spouse before she/he realizes that their spouse cannot and will not see their part of what has faulted the marriage? When you try to talk to the spouse about issues and you are never heard, what are you supposed to do? Just because two people should work together for the better of a marriage doesn't mean they both will. One can over look the other one faults, believe God will bless her by staying in a miserable marriage with this person who chooses to seek his/her own satisfaction while ignoring his spouse and has no regards for this person's feeling. One day this person wakes up and realizes that this legal bond contract was never a process of sharing and of mutual love but yet we are not supposed to see that? Is that what you are saying? We can take accountability for our own actions and we can only change ourselves but we should not remain blind to the obvious. We have given a brain to think for ourselves and if a spouse is acting in narcissistic ways then by golly there is nothing wrong in calling it exactly that. Until you have lived with a narcissistic person and have dealt with their awful ways of treating people you have no idea how terrible it can be. A person's self worth is severely damaged by a person who is narcissistic.....lies, manipulation, it is incredible but yet we are not supposed to blame. Seeing it as it is in not blame. Placing blame where it does not belong and not standing accountable for your own actions is wrong and is very damaging to marriages.


The title of this thread is "I wonder how many spouses (husbands) are just clueless". 

You just described to me why you had every right to leave your husband. OK. What does that have to do with being clueless?

You're all concentrating on my "blame game" comment. Let me show you how that works. 

I am not a perfect man. My wife is not a perfect woman. We do not have a perfect marriage. Like everybody here.

Like most here, I am not able to change some of those bad habits I have. I know they bother my wife. But I can't stop. I do them anyway. Like my wife. It bugs me, and some of it is borderline bad behavior. And she KNOWS it bugs me but she can't stop.

Men get on with their lives. They take the good with the bad. A few fall out of love and walk. The rest, because we're getting laid and we're stupid think life is going on, with some ripples.

Women detatch after a while. They walk. The husband doesn't even know it. He still loves his wife. Sure, those bad times are rough, but they're short and we get over it quickly...right? She loves me as much as I love her, right?

Until he finds out she doesn't. Almost ALWAYS after it's too late. Belligerent idiot didn't see it coming. He deserved it, right? Crying, sobbing pathetic little baby. 

Hi-five girls. You win. Blame game over. Divorce rates remain around 50%, WAW rate hovers over 75. But we know who's fault it is, right?

So now that we got the blame game right, it should be easy to fix, huh? 

So somebody tell me how. Can't be that the woman didn't announce it clearly enough, right? I mean, he KNEW she didn't like his porn use/drug habit/temper/flirting/drinking/gambling/hygein/job/friends/prowess in bed/sex drive/... Whatever made her walk.

So how do we get it so that all of these idiots "get it"? Before it's too late?

Anybody?


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> It seems 'miscommunication' is another excuse for those who willingly dismiss their partner's concerns. Because they are too prideful to say "I am one stupid SOB".


And on, and on, and...


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

And I'm sure NOBODY cares about how that kick in the gut changed me, right? And how it changes ALL men who go through it, right? And it's unfortunate that nobody cares. It's like I just found a cure for belligerent husbands and everyone is indifferent. All we want to do is blame the pig and move on.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

MachoMcCoy said:


> And I'm sure NOBODY cares about how that kick in the gut changed me, right? And how it changes ALL men who go through it, right? And it's unfortunate that nobody cares. It's like I just found a cure for belligerent husbands and everyone is indifferent. All we want to do is blame the pig and move on.


It is true, I do not care that much about your hard time. It is not that important in the global scheme of things. The more self-centered you are, the more important it is to you and the more you build it up in your own mind.

Accept responsibility for your poor behavior and lead by example. At the moment, you write like a crazed egotist.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

pineapple said:


> There's nothing left. I'm 1000% done. I have zero feelings for him.


I'm in the same boat, except that my H is still in love with me; he just expects me to be all about him, his career, his feelings, his needs. I've talked so many times about what I'm not getting out of the marriage; he nods his head, he sympathizes, then he does nothing to change. I guess the people here would say I haven't done 'enough' to make it clear to him...me holding a knife to my wrists until he promises to make changes isn't enough, I guess. 

But of course whenever I finally do get it together and leave, he'll - once again - be shocked. 

But I get the 1000% done. We had major flooding here today; several people died, trapped in their cars. He left for work this morning and I didn't hear from him all day and I'm ashamed to admit, I thought he might have been one of the people that happened to, and I wasn't even feeling that much about it; 35 years of being disappointed over and over again will do that.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

turnera said:


> I'm in the same boat, except that my H is still in love with me; he just expects me to be all about him, his career, his feelings, his needs. I've talked so many times about what I'm not getting out of the marriage; he nods his head, he sympathizes, then he does nothing to change. I guess the people here would say I haven't done 'enough' to make it clear to him...me holding a knife to my wrists until he promises to make changes isn't enough, I guess.
> 
> But of course whenever I finally do get it together and leave, he'll - once again - be shocked.
> 
> But I get the 1000% done. We had major flooding here today; several people died, trapped in their cars. He left for work this morning and I didn't hear from him all day and I'm ashamed to admit, I thought he might have been one of the people that happened to, and I wasn't even feeling that much about it; 35 years of being disappointed over and over again will do that.


*That does speak to the "hollowness" of your marital relationship knowing that the basis for its continuation is beyond long gone!

If that's truly the case, and if cheating and the accompanying nadir of such is not a viable option, then what's precluding that offended neglected spouse from doing the right thing and growing cajones enough to seek out legal counsel to help them phase out that undesirable relationship that they have found themselves to be such an unwilling part of?

After all, most states already have physical as well as emotional abandonment on their books as acceptable reasons for divorce!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

Mr The Other said:


> Accept responsibility for your poor behavior and lead by example. At the moment, you write like a crazed egotist.


And on...


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

turnera said:


> 35 years of being disappointed over and over again will do that.


35 years you've put up with it. Done NOTHING to improve your situation. Yet you're still there. And blaming him.

And on, and on, and...


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

arbitrator said:


> After all, most states already have physical as well as emotional abandonment on their books as acceptable reasons for divorce!]


EXACTLY.

We've already got this topic covered in divorce court. 50%, remember? Why the issue? Your man sucks, just divorce him and get a new one. 

JEEZ! All this whining...


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

Mr The Other said:


> Accept responsibility for your poor behavior and lead by example


Thanks for the advice.

Think I haven't tried that? I get crucified even harder. Then I'm just a little b!tch crying because my wife left me and it's my fault so I deserved it.

"TAKE THAT you male POS".

And when I try to give my analysis of what went wrong? When I explain WAW's using my marriage as an example? When I try to point out moments where maybe I could have been saved before it was too late? If I even HINT that had my wife could have handled any part of it a little differently...

Well, just judge yourself from the reaction THIS post will get.

Divorce rates are hovering around 50%. WAW make up a HUGE percentage of the rest. And all we want to do here is cry "she must be cheating" when we see the signs. Or point fingers. 

Same thing.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

lars2016 said:


> It's sad reading so many sad tales of sexless marriages, relationships without passion or attraction.
> 
> I'm wondering how many of these are caused by the mentality of "one and done", where people spend so much energy courting / dating the one they really want. Once they catch it, get married, they think "I've made it, I don't need to work so hard any more, I can now focus on work, my hobbies, etc." and forget about working on the relationship.
> 
> ...


Really good post. I am in one of those sexless marriages, relationships without passion or attraction. 23 years of marriage. Did I suddenly just get here? No, it was a slow process with participation of both me and my wife.

Amongst other things, I focused on my work over my wife. I was just the provider and not the lover. I was asleep at the wheel when she slowly gained 70 lbs, then I blamed her for being unattractive to me. I should have been aware of her issues that caused her to gain the weight, but I was not. We just got that routine and stayed there for years. 

We had an argument yesterday about our marriage and why she never wants to discuss it. She told me, rightfully, that I always shout her down and overtalk her when arguing, so she just clams up and shuts up and no progress is made. Been like that for years.

Those of us who posted in this thread who have been married more than 20+ years and are now unhappy and want out - we had a role in getting to this point. Maybe a small role, maybe a large role. We are rewriting our marriage history now because we do not like the book WE WROTE during the marriage. 

I wish you all happiness in you marriages or in your new relationships. 

Thanks for letting me whine.


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## pineapple (Apr 9, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> Really good post. I am in one of those sexless marriages, relationships without passion or attraction. 23 years of marriage. Did I suddenly just get here? No, it was a slow process with participation of both me and my wife.
> 
> Amongst other things, I focused on my work over my wife. I was just the provider and not the lover. I was asleep at the wheel when she slowly gained 70 lbs, then I blamed her for being unattractive to me. I should have been aware of her issues that caused her to gain the weight, but I was not. We just got that routine and stayed there for years.
> 
> ...


I believe that is true in most cases! In my case, not so much. Then again, I stuck around and put up with the BS this long so I guess I'm partially to blame for letting it fester this long. My H literally flipped the switch the day we got home from our honeymoon. He never wanted me or a wife, he wanted a mommy to take care of him. UGH!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

That's great, but there should be some baseline characteristics about the marriage that are adhered to THEN we can talk about blame.

The way the standard unhappy-spouse--no-sex routine goes is not quite that... Quite the contrary, it seems to me that one side is simply looking for a reason to get out of Dodge. 

The sex card, frankly speaking, is played all too often in a negative way (withholding) instead of being used as a tool to improve the relationship.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

blueinbr said:


> Really good post. I am in one of those sexless marriages, relationships without passion or attraction. 23 years of marriage. Did I suddenly just get here? No, it was a slow process with participation of both me and my wife.
> 
> Amongst other things, I focused on my work over my wife. I was just the provider and not the lover. I was asleep at the wheel when she slowly gained 70 lbs, then I blamed her for being unattractive to me. I should have been aware of her issues that caused her to gain the weight, but I was not. We just got that routine and stayed there for years.
> 
> ...


Good that have this insight, many do not and I think that is the OP's point about being clueless. So perhaps too you were clueless and focused but you woke up. In some cases the clueless partner cannot and will not take responsibility for their own actions.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

MachoMcCoy said:


> 35 years you've put up with it. Done NOTHING to improve your situation. Yet you're still there. And blaming him.
> 
> And on, and on, and...


I never said I was not responsible. My own issues have kept me here.

But I WILL continue to blame him, because if he'd just do the bare minimum of what I asked - like not take 3 years to install a toilet, he'd have a wife who was crazy happy and be all over him. So it IS his fault that he's not getting that wife.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

MachoMcCoy said:


> And I'm sure NOBODY cares about how that kick in the gut changed me, right? And how it changes ALL men who go through it, right? And it's unfortunate that nobody cares. It's like I just found a cure for belligerent husbands and everyone is indifferent. All we want to do is blame the pig and move on.


Who said nobody cares? That just isn't the topic of this thread. 

If her leaving you changed you, thank her for finally waking you up to what you took for granted. So you suffered pain once she left. What about the multiple, dozens, hundreds, of times the woman felt pain in her marriage every time she was disappointed/ignored/taken for granted and went to bed crying that night? Until she finally fell out of love with the man who simply didn't care to see what he was doing?

WAWs don't just leave because it seems like a good idea. They leave because their marriage was a sham, because the man just wanted a woman to replace his mother and give up sex, or because he wouldn't listen to anyone else. 

They leave because they have been in pain FOR YEARS. And nobody cared about THEM, did they?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

blueinbr said:


> We had an argument yesterday about our marriage and why she never wants to discuss it. She told me, rightfully, that I always shout her down and overtalk her when arguing, so she just clams up and shuts up and no progress is made. Been like that for years.


That's exactly my situation. My H simply cannot stand to EVER be at fault. And if I even question which screwdriver he asks for, he screams at me not to question him. So imagine what happens when I say I'm unhappy. I told him the last time I was distraught that I stopped talking 20 years ago because of him shouting me down and overtalking - he became unsafe to talk to, and he never even noticed. He agreed. 

But he still hasn't changed. Because he doesn't believe I'll ever leave, I guess.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

turnera said:


> I never said I was not responsible. My own issues have kept me here.
> 
> But I WILL continue to blame him, because if he'd just do the bare minimum of what I asked - like not take 3 years to install a toilet, he'd have a wife who was crazy happy and be all over him. So it IS his fault that he's not getting that wife.


Well, this I disagree with. The 3 year toilet thing is not in a vacuum. There are staggered layers to animosity that go a lot deeper than that. If he picked up the toilet and installed it immediately, there would still be that thought of "Well, he finally did something, bout time, but all those other..."

I think often perception becomes reality, whether it is right or wrong. My issue appeared over a month and like, took me by ridiculous surprise. I am really as attentive of a husband as you can be. I listed to all her war work stories, I made almost all the dinners, I rubbed her feet, I told her she was beautiful every day. The problem is there was something else there, whether the kids or just an overarching negative feeling about me that burned(s) deep in her soul. I could have stepped it up even more, but that would have delayed the blast. It doesn't mean she is right or wrong, or anyone is. Just, whatever her perception is, despite the work I may do to counter it, gets justified by almost anything that may appear remotely like it. Installing a toilet wouldn't get a crazy happy wife and BJs for a week. It would get a bitter wife that just remembered all the stuff he didn't do, but could have.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

turnera said:


> But he still hasn't changed.


I am going all in.

TAM
IC
Al-anon meetings to learn coping skills
Behaviorial Support offered by health insurance

I wasted 15 of 23 years but now plan to make each day better than the day before.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Herschel said:


> Installing a toilet wouldn't get a crazy happy wife and BJs for a week.


It did for mine!



Herschel said:


> It would get a bitter wife that just remembered all the stuff he didn't do, but could have.


You see the difference, though, don't you? My DD25 says the new word is 'thirsty' meaning if you want something and you aren't getting it, you're 'thirsty' for it; usually meant for sex. Well, I'm 'thirsty' for a man who takes care of his house. You're 'thirsty' for a woman who respects and desires you. Both of us have made the mistake of making our spouse's life TOO EASY. 

We take for granted that which is thrown at us. I throw 'making sure my H gets all his needs met' at him. You throw 'trying to do everything so she'll notice you' at her. Human nature dictates that the recipients take us for granted because, well, why not?'

There's a little bit of a difference, though, between spoiled men and spoiled women. Women, through our DNA, need a strong man who doesn't become our doormat, our slave, or weak. By you doing everything, your wife stopped respecting you. That's not the man she 'needs' so she becomes angry and dismissive, and probably doesn't even know why. 

That's why we push No More Mr Nice Guy and MMSLP so much here - because it works. It works to teach men like you who've become doormats that you need to step back and stop doing so much for her if she won't reciprocate. 

Of course, I need to follow my own advice and do the same, but I am extremely conflict avoidant, down to a phobia. So I literally freeze every time I think of speaking up and I allow him to think everything's fine. The first 20 years, I didn't consider leaving specifically because I was afraid of how angry he would be and how miserable he would make me. So I have a lot of my own work to do. 

Bottom line, keep psychology and human nature in mind when trying to get what you want.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

turnera said:


> By you doing everything, your wife stopped respecting you. That's not the man she 'needs' so she becomes angry and dismissive, and probably doesn't even know why.
> 
> That's why we push No More Mr Nice Guy and MMSLP so much here - because it works. It works to teach men like you who've become doormats that you need to step back and stop doing so much for her if she won't reciprocate.


Not that I want to make this thread about me, but it's not that I am a doormat. Stuff like cooking, she would probably let them eat mac and cheese half the time. I cook because I want to eat something good. When she works, she usually doesn't eat what I make anyway.

Maybe the rubbing the feet things is doormatic. She also does returns (or just gives) the favor in other ways quite often. 

My point was that even when you do your fair share, perception that you don't becomes reality to your spouse. 

The thing I get irritated the most are the two words "ALWAYS" and "NEVER". Now, I know they are used hyperbolic, but even the assumption that they have a silent "almost" before them, drives me insane. 

A A A A A A A A A A A A B... B ALWAYS HAPPENS! This type of subjective analysis ends up causing such animosity and destroys the foundation of what you have built. Sometimes there is nothing you can even do about it.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

turnera said:


> That just isn't the topic of this thread.


Really? Because I see this:

"I wonder how many spouses are just clueless"?

Who on here is talking about their experience of actually BEING "clueless"?

Who here is trying to convey how it happened? What it was like?

Who here is trying to get people to see how it can be avoided?

Who here is trying his DAMNDEST to get his point across that this happens to good people, in good marriages. ALL THEY TIME!

And I'M the one off point?

But your right. I had problems in my marriage. I was stupid and an idiot for knowing they were there and not fixing them. I did stupid things. I deserved it. My wife deserved it. Our kids deserve it. Our families deserve it. All because one idiot didn't know how all of this worked.

I'm fixed (mostly). It happened immediately. Didn't even take any work. Being clued-in after being clueless for so long is an AMAZING thing. I've experienced it. Talk about a revelation? I see all now. I know what BOTH sides are talking about. I am a WAW whisperer. 

So OP? YOU GO GIRL! Leave that pig. Stupid idiot. You gave him the best years of your life and all he did was (insert push-away trait of husbands) the whole time. Show that piece of sh1t you are woman and can ROAR! Get out and score another one for the ladies. 

So what's the score now?

Women: 2,982,381
Men: 12
The state of marriage in this world: The opposite of "priceless"


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## pineapple (Apr 9, 2016)

MachoMcCoy said:


> So OP? YOU GO GIRL! Leave that pig. Stupid idiot. You gave him the best years of your life and all he did was (insert push-away trait of husbands) the whole time. Show that piece of sh1t you are woman and can ROAR! Get out and score another one for the ladies.
> 
> So what's the score now?
> 
> ...


Angry much?


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## Zanne (Dec 7, 2012)

.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The way I got the toilet installed is that I googled instructions, went to the garage to get the tools, then asked him if these were the right tools, and OF COURSE he immediately jumped up and installed it himself. Because, you know, I can't be trusted to do anything right, only he can. 

Of course, then I have to hear the griping for the next year about how I dictate all his time and he can never plan his life, blah blah blah. So it's a tradeoff: how badly do I want the chore done?


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

turnera said:


> I never said I was not responsible. My own issues have kept me here.
> 
> But I WILL continue to blame him, because if he'd just do the bare minimum of what I asked - like not take 3 years to install a toilet, he'd have a wife who was crazy happy and be all over him. So it IS his fault that he's not getting that wife.





turnera said:


> Who said nobody cares? That just isn't the topic of this thread.
> 
> If her leaving you changed you, thank her for finally waking you up to what you took for granted. So you suffered pain once she left. What about the multiple, dozens, hundreds, of times the woman felt pain in her marriage every time she was disappointed/ignored/taken for granted and went to bed crying that night? Until she finally fell out of love with the man who simply didn't care to see what he was doing?
> 
> ...





MachoMcCoy said:


> Really? Because I see this:
> 
> "I wonder how many spouses are just clueless"?
> 
> ...





turnera said:


> It did for mine!
> 
> You see the difference, though, don't you? My DD25 says the new word is 'thirsty' meaning if you want something and you aren't getting it, you're 'thirsty' for it; usually meant for sex. Well, I'm 'thirsty' for a man who takes care of his house. You're 'thirsty' for a woman who respects and desires you. Both of us have made the mistake of making our spouse's life TOO EASY.
> 
> ...





turnera said:


> The way I got the toilet installed is that I googled instructions, went to the garage to get the tools, then asked him if these were the right tools, and OF COURSE he immediately jumped up and installed it himself. Because, you know, I can't be trusted to do anything right, only he can.
> 
> Of course, then I have to hear the griping for the next year about how I dictate all his time and he can never plan his life, blah blah blah. So it's a tradeoff: how badly do I want the chore done?


I think Macho McCoy's poor wife must have been thirsty for a man who was a complete raving idiot. Imagine being married to him:
Mrs McCoy: It has been three years, can you fix the toilet please?
McCoy: ARRGRHGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHATS WRING WITH YOU!!!!!!!! ITS NOT ABOUT THE TOILET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IAM FIXED EVERYTHING IS LIKE I SAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ARRGRHGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
Mrs McCoy:


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

Zanne said:


> I think people choose to be clueless.
> 
> In my case, I tried in vain to talk to my husband about our marriage. He would yell louder and intimidate me into silence, "Enough!" And then he would roll over on the couch and take a nap.
> 
> ...


Zanne, were you clueless or in denial? There is a difference.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What so many people fail to acknowledge is what dysfunction does to us all. I KNOW what I need to do to assert myself, but every single time I need to do so, I chicken out. This morning, in fact; last night, I mentally walked through the conversation I needed to have with my H about getting his car functioning, after the last 14 months of it not running and him using MY car and making ME cater MY schedule to his because 'his work' was more important than mine. I steeled myself to tell him "get your car inspected" and again, I chickened out. I did text him today about it but as usual he didn't respond. So it's up to me to stand up to him. 

Those of you not in such situation simply don't understand what it's like.


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## Zanne (Dec 7, 2012)

.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

MachoMcCoy said:


> Thanks for the advice.
> 
> Think I haven't tried that? I get crucified even harder. Then I'm just a little b!tch crying because my wife left me and it's my fault so I deserved it.
> 
> ...


Just accept it and move on is very different from coming on here and upset and wrapped up in your big ideas. 

Move on, stop obsessing about your marriage and projecting your upset at your own marriage onto others. If you have moved on you would not be getting upset about it (and you are).

I posted on here, more advice was sympathetic but direct. 

The most irritating advice on marriage comes from men who were worthless husbands, realize they should make some effort and then think they are gurus. You are not so far from that worthless band.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

Mr The Other said:


> The most irritating advice on marriage comes from men who were worthless husbands, realize they should make some effort and then think they are gurus. You are not so far from that worthless band.



Just out of curiosity...

Who the **** are you going to get to comment on this besides someone who has LIVED IT?

Not FAR from that worthless husband? I AM that worthless husband. Which is exactly WHY you should be listening to me.

Just get rid of this forum. We've already settled the blame game, right? That's all we REALLY want to do with these threads. It's all we'll accomplish. 75% of marriages will continue to fail and the gals will just continue hi-fiving each other because they got out of that (pick push-away husband trait that did it to you) marriage.

Go ahead and hate me. But that doesn't help the MILLIONS of women who are in a (Choose crappy husband trait) marriage and have NO CLUE how to communicate to that thick headed bastard. So they will continue to come on here to be told to leave the piece of ****.

Should she? Damn right she should. And I encourage it. I encourage the OP. And the other million women who haven't gotten through to the fat chump that their marriage is already dead. And the ONLY person here actually addressing the issue is getting shunned. 

All because you can't listen to a former a-hole. He was a push-away husband? Attack the slime.

Fascinating.

If you do me ONE favor, at least admit we need to introduce this phenomena to young newlyweds. I find it INCREDIBLE that we let our young enter into marriage without telling them there is a MASSIVE chance this will happen in their marriage. This rot is festering in MILLIONS of marriages, and the husband has no clue and the wife is terrified that her marriage is falling apart and doesn't understand why the bastard won't listen. I try to help but am shunned PURELY because I did this to my wife AND ACTUALLY LEARNED FROM IT!!!

Fascinating.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

Mr The Other said:


> I think Macho McCoy's poor wife must have been thirsty for a man who was a complete raving idiot. Imagine being married to him:
> Mrs McCoy: It has been three years, can you fix the toilet please?
> McCoy: ARRGRHGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHATS WRING WITH YOU!!!!!!!! ITS NOT ABOUT THE TOILET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IAM FIXED EVERYTHING IS LIKE I SAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> ARRGRHGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> Mrs McCoy:


You figured me out. One down, 27 million to go.

Good luck with that.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

The reason you are shunned is not a big conspiracy. The problem is that you are not eloquent and never explain what your point is, only that you are very, very important and that you are very, very wise.

You still refuse to accept that you might have been unusually bad in marriage. And are oblivious to the fact that marriage preparation is not something you have invented.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

MachoMcCoy said:


> You figured me out. One down, 27 million to go.
> 
> Good luck with that.


I think I have.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

Mr The Other said:


> I think I have.


There is is no doubt you have. But there are millions more besides me. You have your work cut out for you.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

Zanne said:


> I think people choose to be clueless.
> 
> In my case, I tried in vain to talk to my husband about our marriage. He would yell louder and intimidate me into silence, "Enough!" And then he would roll over on the couch and take a nap.
> 
> ...


Let me gaze into my crystal ball...

I see that conversation where you finally handed him divorce papers...

He was shocked. Of course he was. We are all stupid idiots. That's not what we are all here for...

But let me gaze closer...

What's this? I didn't expect that! YOU were amazed that he was shocked? Are you freakin' kidding me? You didn't expect that? How could that be? Even the ignorant MachoMcCoy saw that coming from a mile away...

I do not want sympathy and I don't give a **** if you all hate me. If I did I wouldn't still be here. But I find it AMAZING that you don't want to teach your daughters to stay away from men like me. And if a monster like me tricks you into marriage, here's what to expect.

And if it was only ONE monster, I'd be spinning my wheels. But it ain't one. It ain't even one percent. It's Millions.

Go ahead hate me and men like me. But you had better protect your daughters from the likes of me. Teach them what to look for and what to do when they see it.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

turnera said:


> Those of you not in such situation simply don't understand what it's like.


Huh? They're ALL in your situation Turnera. Do you actually READ threads before you post. It's an epidemic, and all everyone can see is their own isolated situation. EVERYBODY'S clueless about this situation.

Everybody but me.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

I am lost. McCoy, what is your story in five sentences or less?


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

turnera said:


> What so many people fail to acknowledge is what dysfunction does to us all. I KNOW what I need to do to assert myself, but every single time I need to do so, I chicken out. This morning, in fact; last night, I mentally walked through the conversation I needed to have with my H about getting his car functioning, after the last 14 months of it not running and him using MY car and making ME cater MY schedule to his because 'his work' was more important than mine. I steeled myself to tell him "get your car inspected" and again, I chickened out. I did text him today about it but as usual he didn't respond. So it's up to me to stand up to him.
> 
> Those of you not in such situation simply don't understand what it's like.


Dysfunction is a killer!!!! Had your situation with the car been 35 years ago how would each of you handled this differently, or would it have been different. I find that young couple's in those early years of being in love compensate for one another more, over-look more, are more willing to listen to the other, more willing to talk about issues and work them thru but time with a person sets in a great deal of hurts from from behaviors that maybe we should have seen as red flags and because of the hurt we are less willing to over-look anymore.

My husband is not a communicator either Turnera, and like your husband he too is a procrastinator which is very frustrating. 14 months for him to use your car instead of fixing his is an awful long time.

My husband hates any kind of bill or paying out money for services so years ago I had a situation where I needed work on my care, mentioned it to husband and he did nothing so rather than wait, knowing he would have to be reminded many more times before he would do anything and I needed my car, I took it to a garage. I knew that would get him but I wasn't going to play his wait game. I then had to have tires after this and I did the same thing, mentioned it to him, knew he wouldn't do anything about it and knew he would be upset if I took it in but I took my car in. He has actually been pretty good with the cars since. If it hurts his pocketbook then he listens.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

turnera said:


> What so many people fail to acknowledge is what dysfunction does to us all. I KNOW what I need to do to assert myself, but every single time I need to do so, I chicken out.
> Those of you not in such situation simply don't understand what it's like.


I understand. I KNOW what I need to go in my situation but I am failing to do it. (Thanks for posting on my thread)

I give out the right advice to other posters but have trouble following the same advice when it has to apply to me.

We cannot change others but we can change ourselves and change the way we react to them. 

No more chicken. Be a bunny. Fast, quicking thinking and cute. :bunny:

BTW: I take our cars to the shop for repairs. Most of the people in the waiting room are women. :smile2:


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

I have read all these responses and I will say that not all spouses are clueless. I don't believe my wife and I are clueless about our relationship. Do we have our challenges? Yes, but clueless is not how I would describe them. I don't know that I believe all marriages and all challenges are predictable. I do believe that there effective ways of communicating and learning how to relate with each other, but I'm not convinced of some cookie cutter mold of one solution fits all.

My wife and I are not perfect and we acknowledge that in each other. We have learned to accept some faults but are passionate in both our arguing about the things that matter and our love-making. We are first husband and wife and parents second. To be "good" at the latter we recognize we need to be "good" at the former. But, being good at it is our story, and I recognize it may not apply to everyone. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

MachoMcCoy said:


> Just out of curiosity...
> 
> Who the **** are you going to get to comment on this besides someone who has LIVED IT?
> 
> ...


Forgive me for interrupting your harrangue, but I'm duty bound to point out that your divorce statistics are wrong. Just google "divorce rate" and see.

The divorce rate in the US is actually declining, likely due to the fact that less than 50% of the couples living together are actually married.

And one more thing: the folks who bring their problems to TAM (and other forums) are a self-selected group. They are not necessarily representative of the nation as a whole. Moreover, most of them are dithering about what to do. That is also not characteristic of couples in general.

And then some advice: seek help. You are too angry to be loose in the world.


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## Lukedog (Nov 18, 2015)

turnera said:


> What so many people fail to acknowledge is what dysfunction does to us all. I KNOW what I need to do to assert myself, but every single time I need to do so, I chicken out. This morning, in fact; last night, I mentally walked through the conversation I needed to have with my H about getting his car functioning, after the last 14 months of it not running and him using MY car and making ME cater MY schedule to his because 'his work' was more important than mine. I steeled myself to tell him "get your car inspected" and again, I chickened out. I did text him today about it but as usual he didn't respond. So it's up to me to stand up to him.
> 
> Those of you not in such situation simply don't understand what it's like.


I do understand. I have a car story similar to this. I also have a toilet story (I cracked up when I read the other toilet stories, knowing I had one too and that I really am not alone in all this). My husband blew the motor up in the vehicle that he drives back in October 2014. It took him five months to obtain something to drive, partly because our finances were pinched (mostly because of him, and since I am now handling the finances and accounts, I wanted to see how he was going to handle this situation), so he ended up liquidating one of his small retirement accounts and taking the hit on early withdrawal and taxes (in the end only got a check for $5200), and bought a used vehicle for a couple grand. But for five months he procrastinated, wouldn't sit down and discuss with me what we were gonna do (we need two vehicles), and every time I asked him he would just kinda shrug it off, and inconvenienced everyone (me, our son, his co-workers) for rides to and from work and misc. running errands that he had to do. I told him several times he was going to have to call a cab because I wasn't going to continue to chauffeur his azz around. He never did, and I kept taking him to work in the mornings. That vehicle with the blown motor still sits in our backyard today because he keeps saying " it's goin, this weekend it's goin", but it never goes. I can't even call myself and have the junkyard take it because he has the Title and won't give it to me. This is his way of handling things. 

Toilet story: For about 2 years our upstairs toilet really needed replaced....had not been flushing right...the guts were replaced...to no avail. Many times I had stated the toilet simply needs replaced, asked him to do it, demanded him to do it...never got done. One weekend his mother was staying with us because she was afraid to stay by herself during the impending snowstorm coming that weekend...Ok...sure. All weekend she used the toilet/bathroom in the basement because she was afraid to use the one upstairs for fear that she wouldn't flush it right and would break it. Alas, Sunday morning she fell down our basements steps, broke her hip, scraped the skin off her leg so bad that she had to have skin grafts. We ended up having to file a claim against our homeowner's insurance, thousands of dollars later, she was in the hospital, rehab, wasn't allowed to drive for months so we had to do her running around and errands. Guess what? The toilet got replaced after that (I had to call my step-dad to do it tho). If he would have just replaced the toilet when I asked him to this incident may not have happened. 

I stand up to him, I just can't do anything about HIS procrastination over getting things done. That's on him, not me. If he doesn't want to fix his house and the things in it, that's on him, not me. There are times as this point that I look at him and I pity him. I feel sorry for the person he has become. And I don't want to be dragged down with him any more. I just can't get myself out of the rut yet. 

So...I do understand.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

My IC gave me the phone number of a handyman so I could start getting the things done. That's what a professional says to do, in the face of a husband who won't take care of his family: make him irrelevant so that he wakes up and starts caring; and if he still doesn't, move on.


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