# Am I being unreasonable?



## musiclover (Apr 26, 2017)

I've posted here before, my life is still the same. But just a quick question.

If you've asked your spouse repeatedly to not drink mixed drinks because they can get nasty and their response is "stop trying to control me"
Would you finally just call it quits?

I told him I want a divorce last night. He said I'm crazy divorcing over a drink. I said I'm divorcing because of his complete lack of respect for my feelings. 

That's the short version. Am I being unreasonable? I just need reassurance that I am not going crazy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pleaser44 (May 5, 2015)

I have been in your shoes . . . . . my husband was a weekend alcoholic. He had the EXACT SAME RESPONSE. We did separate for 2.5yrs. We have been back together for 3yrs now. He explained to me that he needed to grow up, that he didn't respect my feelings at that time. that was my experience. there were other reasons for our break up. I understand how you feel


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

You're not divorcing over a drink, you're divorcing because he's nasty and disrespectful when he drinks. And apparently the drink is more important than his treatment of you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

It's your choice - as it's his to continue drinking. Whether it's unreasonable in someone else's opinion probably depends on what you mean by "nasty." If by nasty you mean abusive in word or deed, then you're not being unreasonable, IMO.


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## Dude007 (Jun 22, 2015)

musiclover said:


> I've posted here before, my life is still the same. But just a quick question.
> 
> If you've asked your spouse repeatedly to not drink mixed drinks because they can get nasty and their response is "stop trying to control me"
> Would you finally just call it quits?
> ...


Roll out of there, but bet on this, your next Dude will do something as equally irritating, probably worse!!


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## ReidWright (May 15, 2014)

is he drinking at home? at a bar? alone? with a bunch of drunk friends?

describe 'nasty'.

how frequent? is he fine with beer?


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## musiclover (Apr 26, 2017)

Thanks for the responses... 

Nasty drunk as in verbally abusive. Physically abusive twice. I should have left then but got sucked back in. 

This is not a weekly thing but I would say every 3 months. Then he is good for a while then bam the cycle begins again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

musiclover said:


> Thanks for the responses...
> 
> Nasty drunk as in verbally abusive. Physically abusive twice. I should have left then but got sucked back in.
> 
> This is not a weekly thing but I would say every 3 months. Then he is good for a while then bam the cycle begins again.


What happened when he got physically abusive.. how abusive?

How long does this last? Does he drink for a few days? Or one day/night.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

musiclover,

Look up the term "cycle of abuse". Most abusive people do it on a cycle. They are good in between then have a blow up. Then they get nice again, some apologize. And so it repeats.

There are different types of alcoholics. Some drink every day. Some binge drink. Your husband sounds like a binge drinker/alcoholic. 

You are justified in divorcing an abusive alcoholic. Why don't you just file?

When he brings up divorcing over a drink, remind him that you are divorcing him because he's an abusive, binge alcoholic who has no respect for you. Don't let him frame why you are getting a divorce.

Also, don't buy into the nonsense that if you get into another relationship, that guy will do things just as bad. So you may as well stay with this guy. Do not let that attitude sink in.

You would do well to get into counseling to figure out how to avoid getting into another similar relationship. But changing yourself is completely possible.


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## musiclover (Apr 26, 2017)

Thanks ... I keep putting up with because I think it's gonna change. We've talked about this over and over. Then he says I never asked him to stop.. I'm starting to feel like I'm going crazy. 

Elegirl, I would put him in the binge category. One place that we go to, no joke they must put 5 shots of vodka in a glass with a spritz of cranberry. He knows this, every single time he goes off its because he's been there drinking mixed drinks. He doesn't drink everyday, but a couple of times a week. With beer he's fine. He orders a mixed drink, I cringe. 

I'm just hurt by the whole thing. I really think he thinks oh well she'll get over it she always does. My fault on that I know. 

This took a whole turn for the worse last month when I said I was ready to walk. After that talk he's been cold, distant and just snappy with me. Thinks I should apologize for being a control freak. So that's that.. Life has been one big mess since then. It's not even about the alcohol with him anymore, it's him proving he's right. That's the sad part.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Are you going to file for divorce? What are your plans?


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## Dude007 (Jun 22, 2015)

musiclover said:


> Thanks ... I keep putting up with because I think it's gonna change. We've talked about this over and over. Then he says I never asked him to stop.. I'm starting to feel like I'm going crazy.
> 
> Elegirl, I would put him in the binge category. One place that we go to, no joke they must put 5 shots of vodka in a glass with a spritz of cranberry. He knows this, every single time he goes off its because he's been there drinking mixed drinks. He doesn't drink everyday, but a couple of times a week. With beer he's fine. He orders a mixed drink, I cringe.
> 
> ...


So follow through with your threat


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## musiclover (Apr 26, 2017)

He asked if we could try a trial separation for a while. I said yes but then I'm thinking okay in 6 months we get back together and what if he starts this nonsense again. Then what back to square one? 

I love him but I feel that I'm getting nowhere. My son is 20 and he said I'm a fool for thinking he's gonna change. Sad when your son is trying to knock sense into his mother.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

musiclover said:


> He asked if we could try a trial separation for a while. I said yes but then I'm thinking okay in 6 months we get back together and what if he starts this nonsense again. Then what back to square one?
> 
> I love him but I feel that I'm getting nowhere. My son is 20 and he said I'm a fool for thinking he's gonna change. Sad when your son is trying to knock sense into his mother.


Your son gets it. Listen to him.

The chances of your husband changing are little to none. To an addict, their first loyalty is to the substance to which they are addicted.


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## musiclover (Apr 26, 2017)

wrenn said:


> Do a legal trial separation and stipulate in the agreement that if he relapses he will grant you a noncontested divorce, and you get more of the marital assets such as the house, or retirement funds, that sort of thing.


As much as I want to believe he will change, in my heart I don't think he will. It hit me like a ton of bricks after last month. So, why keep giving him chances. 

Unfortunately, I can't talk to him like normal people talk. He talks at me and its about "winning" an argument not resolving an issue. He has traits of narcissistic
or bipolar maybe a bit of both. Feels like with each passing year it's getting worse. Or maybe my tolerance level has decreased. I don't know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## musiclover (Apr 26, 2017)

Elegirl, yes my son does get it. He said I've been putting up with it so long that I think it's normal..

So when I need a smack I'm relying on him to give it to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Listen to your son and get out. You don't have to justify your actions to your husband. You just say you've had enough. And don't let him talk you out of it.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

musiclover said:


> I've posted here before, my life is still the same. But just a quick question.
> 
> If you've asked your spouse repeatedly to not drink mixed drinks because they can get nasty and their response is "stop trying to control me"
> Would you finally just call it quits?
> ...


No, you are not being unreasonable, he has a problem with alcohol and is crossing all the boundaries and disrespecting you. BUT if he already has a stronger relationship to the alcohol, it will come first, that is why you are in this place. Threats will not work, you have to follow through and he needs to get help.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

ML, I posted this somewhere before, it is called "What Addicts Do". If you see this in your relationship then you know he will not change until he decides to get help, you cannot threaten him into it. You think that things are going to change and you get on the roller coaster again until the next wham bam, and the cycle repeats. I lived that for many years, but my H is much better now not because he wanted to do it for me but because it was beginning to affect his job! Senior people in his company brought it up and he is in top management so didn't go down well. 
Something has to give him the incentive to do something about it. 

But, once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic, they are just 'dry drunks' when they are not drinking. Mine has had no serious incidents in a while, but I am always prepared for the eventuality. You have to get off the emotional roller coaster, that is the most emotionally debilitating thing. You have to come to the realization you have no control over him and what he does. You will learn that in Al-Anon, which you should attend to help you with the emotional co-dependency.

(From somewhere on internet, cannot find source) but here goes:
You cannot nor will not change my behavior. You cannot make me treat you better, let alone with any respect. All I care about, all I think about, is my needs and how to go about fulfilling them. You are a tool to me, something to use. When I say I love you I am lying through my teeth, because love is impossible for someone in active addiction. I wouldn't be using if I loved myself, and since I don't, I cannot love you. 
My feelings are so pushed down and numbed by my drugs/alcohol that I could be considered sociopathic. I have no empathy for you or anyone else. It doesn't faze me that I hurt you, leave you hungry, lie to you, cheat on you and steal from you. 
My behavior cannot and will not change until i make a decision to stop using/drinking and then follow it up with a plan of action.
And until I make that decision, I will hurt you again and again and again.
Stop being surprised. 
I am an addict. And that's what addicts do.
__________________


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

musiclover said:


> Elegirl, yes my son does get it. He said I've been putting up with it so long that I think it's normal..
> 
> So when I need a smack I'm relying on him to give it to me.


 How much of your husband's anger and bad behavior has your son seen and been subjected to? You might not realize it, but this puts an undue burden on your son. Even at his current age it has to be hard for him. 

When you doubt what to do, think of what it has done and continues to do to hurt him.


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## musiclover (Apr 26, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> How much of your husband's anger and bad behavior has your son seen and been subjected to? You might not realize it, but this puts an undue burden on your son. Even at his current age it has to be hard for him.
> 
> When you doubt what to do, think of what it has done and continues to do to hurt him.


Yes, I agree... I see the nasty drunk a lot more than my kids, but he just loves to snap like a drill sergeant. I see so much more to our problems as I sit and type. I am so done. I'm tired of talking and getting nowhere. 

He's already calling saying he can't eat or sleep. Poor baby, you should have listened all the times I talked. 

Thanks for the kind words everyone, it helps 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

musiclover said:


> Unfortunately, I can't talk to him like normal people talk. He talks at me and its about "winning" an argument not resolving an issue. He has traits of narcissistic
> or bipolar maybe a bit of both. Feels like with each passing year it's getting worse. Or maybe my tolerance level has decreased. I don't know.


There's nothing to save here. Move on.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

You asked, what happens if you separate for 6 months, reconcile, and then things go wrong again--that's when you leave for good (if you are not ready to do so already). But that is for others reading about possibly separating--not for you. You need to leave now, and permanently.

If your son urges you to leave, and your husband drinks and has been physically abusive, there is zero left that you can do--so make your exit plan and go. An abusive drunk is an abusive drunk, and he will not change. 

The very fact that he reduces your concern to being "over a drink," is evidence of his denial of the reality. 

Go, and don't look back.


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## musiclover (Apr 26, 2017)

Today was hard. He packed a bunch of things and left.

I don't understand how he cannot think he is wrong... My God he is in serious denial. 

He asked again what he did to deserve this.. I said I am not going to ruin my weekend talking about this right now. Please leave we will talk next week. So he's gone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Both of you puffed up your chest and thought the other was going to cave.

Thank God you didn't.


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## musiclover (Apr 26, 2017)

turnera said:


> Both of you puffed up your chest and thought the other was going to cave.
> 
> Thank God you didn't.


Lol, I don't have enough energy in me to puff my chest anymore. 

This is tough, I need to snap myself out of this funk I'm in.. My heart hurts


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Get out and do something. Accomplish something.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Keep your resolve, write down all the things that he did to you in his drunken state. Remember you deserve better. Sometimes we become used to the bad treatment and think it is the norm. it is not the norm. You should read up on co-dependency.


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## musiclover (Apr 26, 2017)

aine said:


> Keep your resolve, write down all the things that he did to you in his drunken state. Remember you deserve better. Sometimes we become used to the bad treatment and think it is the norm. it is not the norm. You should read up on co-dependency.


Never thought of myself as being co dependent but I must be. It was nice last night; watched a tv show with my son. Peace and quiet for once. 

Do abusers realize they are abusing or do they think they are the normal ones? Just wondering. My mom is bipolar or NPD; that's a whole different thread though lol. 

I'm taking one day at a time over here. I feel like I'm overwhelmed with emotions. And I don't like it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

They think they are the normal ones. They have to, or they couldn't live with themselves. They have to convince themselves that they only do stuff because the other person 'forces' them to.


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## musiclover (Apr 26, 2017)

turnera said:


> They think they are the normal ones. They have to, or they couldn't live with themselves. They have to convince themselves that they only do stuff because the other person 'forces' them to.


Makes perfect sense, thank you. 

Feel like I'm mourning but at the same time, I'm thinking this is nice. The house is quiet and it's peaceful. I'm contempt and so are my kids. 
I don't want the drama anymore..


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

The drama comes from trying to 'manage' the incidents and the roller coaster. That is co-dependency, you make yourself responsible for the other by 'controlling' what will or wont happen.

Your life becomes unmanageable in the long run. Try and get a copy of Melody Beatties' Co-Dependent No More to read. You can learn how to detach and set yourself free from his actions and behavior. 
You are enjoying the alone time with your kids because you no longer have to shield the kids, rescue him, deflect his behaviour, deal with his lies/actions etc. In other words, this is normality, enjoy it!


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## musiclover (Apr 26, 2017)

aine said:


> The drama comes from trying to 'manage' the incidents and the roller coaster. That is co-dependency, you make yourself responsible for the other by 'controlling' what will or wont happen.
> 
> Your life becomes unmanageable in the long run. Try and get a copy of Melody Beatties' Co-Dependent No More to read. You can learn how to detach and set yourself free from his actions and behavior.
> You are enjoying the alone time with your kids because you no longer have to shield the kids, rescue him, deflect his behaviour, deal with his lies/actions etc. In other words, this is normality, enjoy it!


Aine, I read your thread. Your husband sounds a lot like mine. We must be saints for putting up with this. 

Last night I said to my son, gee you're home a lot this past week. He said mom, dad's not here it's relaxing. My God, what an eye opener. 

I hope I can keep the house when this is all said and done. So much work to be done around here that my H just would not do. The man makes good money, works 14 hours a day but ask him to do something around here is like I'm asking him to build a moat around the house. And nope, couldn't hire anyone, because well he can fix it. But never ever gets done. Sad

I feel so much better today; I know I'm gonna be okay.


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## DoneWithHurting (Feb 4, 2015)

My wife sounds like your husband.
I told her stop drinking and start treating people nicely or we get divorced.
I meant it.
She stopped drinking and started treating people nicely.
4 years later... still here, no drinking, no rages, treating people nicely.
I guess she did/does love me enough to make the change I needed to stay in the marriage.


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## musiclover (Apr 26, 2017)

Donewithhurting, 

I'm happy your wife took your seriously enough to make changes. If my husband did, that would have been a start in the right direction. 

If my husband told me right now he'll make changes, it's too late. I've been asking for a long time and always ended up on the roller coaster again. 

I hope he is still insists that it's not his drinking and that it's me. Will make this whole process less emotional for me to deal with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

These first few weeks are tough. Peace and calm mixed with grief and anxiety. Normal.

Some ideas....

Exercise.... go for walks, go to the gym, join a class....something. It helps you clear your head, it helps keep you healthy, it can help you to sleep better. 

Al-alnon.... to help you learn more and have a support group. It also shows him that you are serious and not just blowing smoke, you are DOING something. 

Projects.... learn how to fix a few things around the house. The satisfaction and ownership of this is awesome. Everything is online now... you can do most projects, especially cosmetic ones. Rearrange the living area or bedroom to a way that suits YOU. Kind of taking control of your space. 

Make your space YOURS. If you are not ready to pack up his stuff....and there is always stuff... then put all his bathroom stuff under the sink, in a cabinet somewhere. Put his bedroom stuff all in his closet and close the doors. Clean it all, paint if you want (in YOUR favorite color). Really, these are superficial changes.... but they help YOU focus on yourself, and its kind of cathartic cleaning and clearing.... 

Support.... figure out who your local, real -life support group is. Girlfriends, sister, etc.... don't let HIM be your support and refuse to be his. If he keeps seeking support from you (which is normal) suggest that he find a group or get counseling because you cannot be his support at this time. Have "girls night" in. Join a women's team. Check in to Divorce Care (they are in various cities, often meet in churches but they are not religious), check out meetup.com to find groups that you can join (not a dating site...more of an activity site). 

You can do this. Remind youself (with a mantra if necessary) that YOU have control of your own life. Don't give him control again, he can't handle it..... no matter what he says.


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## musiclover (Apr 26, 2017)

Thanks SunnyT!! 

If I get to keep the house, I plan on doing a lot around here. I was on a DIY last night getting ideas for my kitchen. My home needs so many renovations it's overwhelming. My H was always saying don't touch that I'll take care of it, etc. But nothing got done. I'll do it myself if I stay here. I don't need him.

I have no intention of being his support system lol. He's on his own. I feel kind of bad for him just because he doesn't get it. And we had a good run there for a while. Some parts of him and some things we did together give me a heavy heart because we had a great time. But I'm not going to turn his issues into my issues anymore. He had his 500 chances but didn't take me seriously. 

This is going to be a long road for me but I'll be okay. I love coming home and it's calm. I love that my kids are beyond happy. I love the peace and quiet. I never ever plan on going back to his drama again... 

Every day I cross one thing off my long list of things I need to do to get my life in order. Makes it so much easier on me than saying OMG I have so much to do that I'm crippled with anxiety. 

Im happy right now, and I plan on staying that way..


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Hon, addicts are good at playing the victim because it lets them avoid facing their addiction. . Poor him, what did he do to deserve this, it's just a little drink, you know he doesn't mean it when he gets nasty..... it can go on and on. But you have to live with it.

He knows it's an issue, he just didn't think you'd do anything about it. My ex basically admitted he knew he didn't treat me well but didn't think I was going anywhere. That's where they show you who they are.

Be done with him, maybe this will motivate him to get some help. Either way it's no longer your problem. You'll be better off.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## musiclover (Apr 26, 2017)

lifeistooshort said:


> Hon, addicts are good at playing the victim because it lets them avoid facing their addiction. . Poor him, what did he do to deserve this, it's just a little drink, you know he doesn't mean it when he gets nasty..... it can go on and on. But you have to live with it.
> 
> He knows it's an issue, he just didn't think you'd do anything about it. My ex basically admitted he knew he didn't treat me well but didn't think I was going anywhere. That's where they show you who they are.
> 
> ...



He never so much said he was sorry when he acted out. It's not his fault he said crap to me, it was my fault for causing it. For a long time I said to myself, he must forget when he's drinking how he acted. I don't care anymore if he remembered or not. I told him, that should be enough.

Last week I said what part of you being verbally abusive when you drink do you not understand? His response was that I (meaning me) have been abusive for 10 years... Okay joker. My face :surprise:


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## musiclover (Apr 26, 2017)

So, has anyone here used a divorce mediator? I'm confused by it. Does the mediator look at income, assets, etc and help both parties come to a reasonable agreement? Or is it something that we work on beforehand and the mediator is there as a go between? 

Thanks 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## musiclover (Apr 26, 2017)

So, I'm slowly picking up his stuff that is laying around since he will be here this weekend to finish packing up. 

And what do I find? A receipt for a charm bracelet that says live love laugh... Ummmmm we'll he didn't buy it for me and I'm sure he didn't buy it for himself. What a jerk!!! So guess who changed their fb cover to live love laugh?? ME . 

And here I am fighting depression over this blame shifter.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

musiclover said:


> So, has anyone here used a divorce mediator? I'm confused by it.


MusicLover, I'm pleased to see that you decided nearly three months ago to walk away from your toxic marriage. I'm sorry I did not see this thread of yours earlier. If your STBXH really does have strong BPD traits, as we discussed two years ago, the divorce process very likely will get ugly and vindictive at some point. After all, abandonment is a BPDer's greatest fear.

Hence, if you still believe he has strong BPD traits, I suggest you read the book, *Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder*. It is written by Bill Eddy and Randi Kreger. 

Also good are these two BPDfamily articles: Surviving a Breakup with Someone Suffering with BPD (Article 9) and Leaving a Partner with BPD (Article 10). While you are at the BPDfamily forum, you might want to start participating (or at least lurking) at the *"Leaving a Borderline"* board. I also suggest you read these online articles: Pain of Breaking Up and Divorcing a Narcissist. 

Finally, if you believe your STBXH has strong BPD traits, I recommend that you NOT try to persuade him of that. If he is a BPDer, he almost certainly will project the accusation right back onto you. And, because that projection will occur entirely at the subconscious level, he likely will be convinced -- at a conscious level -- that YOU are the BPDer. Instead, simply encourage him to see a good psychologist (not a MC) and let the psych decide what to tell him. Take care, MusicLover.


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## musiclover (Apr 26, 2017)

Hi Uptown....

Thank you. I will read the links you posted. And I'll pick up the book, I think I may need it. I'm not sure if he is BPD, NPD or a bit of both. He seems to go both ways if that's possible. My head spins from reading up on the traits that I get confused... I honestly have no idea how bad his BPD NPD is. I can only compare him with my mom, and she is full blown. He's not that bad thank God. 

He takes zero responsibility in any of this. And I mean that seriously.
We will have a conversation about something, he will later deny we did. Multiple times. I was starting to think I was going nuts.
Will twist a conversation completely around, so again he is not at fault. The most recent was that he gave up drinking vodka because it bothered me instead of saying he gave it up because he's an abuser. This sort of thing is constant. 

I'm at the point where I'm getting disgusted talking to him because he's living in denial land. It's impossible to have a conversation without me feeling like I'm on trial. So if he wants to talk trash about me and tell everyone I'm some crazy lady, he can. 

We've been together over 20 years so it's hard. We had a lot of great times together and I get sad thinking about it. But this madness is just getting worse with each passing year so I gotta go. I'll be okay


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

musiclover said:


> I'm not sure if he is BPD, NPD or a bit of both. He seems to go both ways if that's possible.


It is not only possible, MusicLover, but very common in BPDers. A 2008 study (i.e., face to face interviews with nearly 35,000 American adults) found that 47% of men having BPD also had co-occurring full-blown NPD. The incidence of NPD for female BPDers is 32%. See Table 3 at 2008 Study in JCP.



> He takes zero responsibility in any of this. And I mean that seriously.


If he has strong BPD traits, he is filled with shame and self loathing that he has been carrying since early childhood. Hence, the LAST thing he wants to see is one more flaw or mistake to add to the long list of things he hates about himself. 



> We will have a conversation about something, he will later deny we did. Multiple times.


This "rewriting of history" -- even rewriting the recent history of a few days ago -- is very common among BPDers. To the extent this arises from his BPD traits, he very likely is NOT lying when doing this. Rather, his intense feelings likely are distorting his perception of your intentions and his recent actions. 

A BPDer's subconscious mind works 24/7 to protect his fragile ego from seeing too much of reality. It usually accomplishes this not through lies (as a narcissist would do) but, rather, through projections. Because those projections originate in the subconscious, the BPDer will consciously be convinced that they are orginating from YOU. This is one reason BPD is called a "thought distortion."

My experience is that a BPDer will lie if he is cornered and has no other way to avoid the shame of being wrong. But he is far more likely to rely on projections because they are guilt-free. In contrast, telling lies causes a BPDer to feel guilty and shameful, a feeling that already is very painful. In contrast, a narcissist will tend to rely more heavily on lies.



> I was starting to think I was going nuts.


Of the 157 disorders listed in the APA's diagnostic manual, BPD is the one most notorious -- by far -- for making the abused spouses feel like they may be losing their minds. To a lesser extent, narcissists also have this effect on spouses. The result is that therapists see far more of those abused spouses -- coming in to find out if they are going crazy -- than they ever see of the BPDers themselves.



> It's impossible to have a conversation without me feeling like I'm on trial.


To the extent he has strong BPD traits, he is convinced he is "The Victim," always "The Victim." He thus is almost continually looking for validation of that false self image. At the outset of your R/S, he accomplished that by perceiving of you as "The Rescuer," which means he was the victim being rescued.

Yet, as soon as his infatuation over you started to evaporate, his two fears (abandonment and engulfment) returned and you started triggering them. Hence, if he is a BPDer, your days of being "The Rescuer" became less and less frequent -- being limited to the diminishing periods of your being split white. More and more frequently, then, you would be perceived of as "The Perpetrator," i.e., the cause of his unhappiness and every misfortune. In that way, you continue to validate his false self image.

To the extent he has strong narcissistic traits, his false self image is not that of victim but, rather, of being "Mr. Perfect." A narcissist therefore is frequently seeking validation of his being the nearly perfect man. This, at least, is my understanding, MusicLover.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

If I were in that situation, I'd start carrying a recorder with me. And using it. And letting him see me using it. Will he like it? No. But it will be a statement that, as long as you have to live with him, you will be protecting yourself from his 'I never said that' crap. In fact, I'd be transferring the conversations to my computer and filing them: 'convo about swimming pool'; 'convo about parents 9/28/15'; etc.

If nothing else, it would stop the mind spinning where he tells you what he didn't say. May even help him start looking at it objectively, IF he is of a mind to be a better person.


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## musiclover (Apr 26, 2017)

Uptown said:


> It is not only possible, MusicLover, but very common in BPDers. A 2008 study (i.e., face to face interviews with nearly 35,000 American adults) found that 47% of men having BPD also had co-occurring full-blown NPD. The incidence of NPD for female BPDers is 32%. See Table 3 at 2008 Study in JCP.
> 
> If he has strong BPD traits, he is filled with shame and self loathing that he has been carrying since early childhood. Hence, the LAST thing he wants to see is one more flaw or mistake to add to the long list of things he hates about himself.
> 
> ...


Thank you!! So much to absorb. My brains on fire half the time trying to figure out what he is thinking when he talks nonsense.. 

He's gotten so much worse over time. And now that he knows I'm done, his days of yelling, rage etc are over with. Now it's poor me, my wife just left for no reason. She's so mean, she must be having an affair because he didn't do anything... This is what he is telling people. 

I told him until you can show me that you are truly remorseful, get counseling, and prove you changed I'm not going back. I don't want to hear another word how he gave up vodka for me lol. Big whoop!!! So, that will never be because he's not wrong.


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## musiclover (Apr 26, 2017)

turnera said:


> If I were in that situation, I'd start carrying a recorder with me. And using it. And letting him see me using it. Will he like it? No. But it will be a statement that, as long as you have to live with him, you will be protecting yourself from his 'I never said that' crap. In fact, I'd be transferring the conversations to my computer and filing them: 'convo about swimming pool'; 'convo about parents 9/28/15'; etc.
> 
> If nothing else, it would stop the mind spinning where he tells you what he didn't say. May even help him start looking at it objectively, IF he is of a mind to be a better person.


Funny, I used to turn my phone recorder on when I could feel a rage coming about. I had a couple of crazy things on there. Unfortunately I dropped that phone in water and couldn't get the recordings back. 

He moved out, so it doesn't matter anymore. If he thinks we didn't have a conversation well that's his problem now. I'm over it. If he does show up and my phone is out, I turn it on. Only because I never know if he's gonna flip to his rage self again. The minute the divorce is final, I am changing the locks.... 

I needed to find something to take my mind off my life so I completely remodeled the kitchen. From ceiling to floor and everything in between. I have a couple of more tiles to lay but I'll be done by next week. I LOVE LOVE LOVE that I no longer need to wait for him to be ready for us to get something done around here. Because he was never ready. 

And I realized, I don't need his help. If I see someone on you tube doing it, so can I. :grin2:


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Musiclover, you are moving on to bigger and better things, good for you!


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## musiclover (Apr 26, 2017)

aine said:


> Musiclover, you are moving on to bigger and better things, good for you!


Thanks!! I feel Im moving in the right direction. I have a few moments here and there. Weird, but I don't miss the home life with him not one bit. I miss the things we did. He is fun when he drinks like a normal person. 

I gotta say, this has been one of the worst years of my life. My mother is full blown crazy, I had to cut her out of my life which is hard. But I couldn't take it anymore; I was on the verge of a meltdown with her. Then the drama with my H; the both of them need help. 

I can't be knocked down much more at this point. But I'm happy and that's all I can ask for .


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## musiclover (Apr 26, 2017)

Oh and while it's on my mind, maybe one of the experts here can help me figure this out. 

So the new thing that my H does, is I think try to rile me up and when I show no emotion, will bring it back up again. For example, he calls and says "I talked to X today she can't believe what you did to me". My response was oh that's interesting, ok have a good day gotta go. The next day he stops over for some imaginary reason and says hey you weren't mad about what I sad were you. I'll say no, and he'll say oh you seemed mad. Me, no I'm fine I don't care what X thinks. He'll say ok are you sure because I thought you were. He'll repeat this 5 different ways lol. At this point I snap and say, NO I'm not mad stop asking me the same thing over and over... Which he responds with "God why are you so mean and nasty to me I just asked a question..... 

Honest to God, just when I think I have it figured out, he does something new for a while....


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

It's a power play. He has to be the one who's being victimized; thus you have to be the aggressor. He NEEDS that 'balance' so that he can continue as is without having to look himself in the mirror. So he will continue to bring up situations, even conversations, so that he can either get you to agree he's the poor victim or so that you ACT aggressively as you described, so he KNOWS he's the poor victim. 

Have some fun with it. Talk nonsense back to him. "Have a cookie" makes as much sense as what he's saying, so just give that response. Or make up some nonsense about HIM and what people are saying HE did to YOU. 

As long as he keeps getting what he wants out of it - as you just proved you're doing - he'll keep doing it.

btw, you realize that you pick a partner just like your worst parent, right? Read the first half of the book Getting The Love You Want; it explains it really well. Basically, whatever your parent did to hurt you - withhold love, judge, be crazy - you'll subconsciously seek a partner who will play that same scene out, because you 'love' that partner and you want that partner, who should also love YOU back, to FIX that hole in your heart that your parent put there.

The problem is, you're dysfunctional to start with cos your parent was dysfunctional, so you don't know how to pick a safe, healthy partner - you just pick another dysfunctional person like you. So, just like YOU expect him to fix YOUR hole, he's expecting YOU to fix HIS hole. Time goes on, neither of you is receiving that, you start to resent each other, and you revert back to the dysfunction you grew up with.


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## musiclover (Apr 26, 2017)

I try to remain emotionless when he talks nonsense. But he'll either keep at it until I bark or hell say "what's the matter you seem down". I can't with him, no matter what way I turn he has something to come back with. 

You know, my mom seemed normal when we were young. Maybe I just didn't see it, who knows. I do remember some rages and other stuff, like extreme jealousy over weird stuff, but for the most part she was wasn't bad. We had a pretty happy childhood. As we grew older and independent; that's when she started getting crazy. Now it is so out of control I can't begin to explain it. My sister is convinced mom is going to be in a lifetime movie someday . 

But you're right. I am drawn to this. Otherwise, I wouldn't have stayed this long in an unhealthy relationship. My eyes are wide open now, believe me. If I ever decide to throw myself out there again, one thought of "boy that seems a bit dysfunctional" , I'm running. 


I'll put the book down on my ever growing list of things to read .


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Barking is YOUR choice. You're an adult. Choose better. Leave the room. Shake your head and laugh at him like he's a pitiful poor thing and walk away. Change the subject. Hold your hand up and say 'stop' and walk away.


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## musiclover (Apr 26, 2017)

I know. I just go so frustrated when we can't have a conversation about us without some sort game going on. It's tiring.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Well, then you can't complain when you get a bad result.


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