# New member: sexless engagement



## ben86 (Nov 13, 2012)

I found this forum a few days ago and have not been able to stop reading posts ever since. It was such a relief to read stories by people in the same situation as me and to hear different view points. I have no doubt that this forum will be of some real help. 

To introduce myself I have been in a relationship for the last 9 yrs, we met in our teens and got engaged 2.5yrs ago. For at least the last 4 years we have had problems due to a lack of sex in our relationship due to my partners low sex drive and lack of desire. Since this started becoming an issue it has been getting steadily worse and currently so far this year we have had sex twice. 

I always initiate sex and it is always rejected. She is not so opposed to other forms of sexual activity, however she is not always an active participant. By this I mean the majority of my sexual needs are met by “dry humping”, this being her laying on her back, both of us with PJ’s on, I’ll kiss her neck but get no reaction from her, no kissing, no moving hands over me, and very very very little sound. Afterwards the main reaction is that her legs hurt. This IS out sex life. Even these events are rare, and on every occasion I have to nag and bug her, she will then give in by telling me literally to get on with it. I sometimes ask her to get onto of me, but that is ALWAYS a no. These situations happen maybe once a week unless she is really putting up a fight and not giving into my nagging. Probably about once every 3-4 months I will give her oral sex, I normally use this as a tool to get a really decent make out session with her and she does enjoy oral sex, however this never leads to full sex or oral sex for myself, it simply leads to her being an active participant in making out. 

I have spoken to her about this issue and she sees it as a problem. Around 4 months ago we had been discussing this issue and trying not to turn it into an argument. She then spoke to a woman at her work about it and afterwards for a few days she was my dream sexual partner. We had sex (one of the two times this year), the next day when driving she was talking about the sex and was telling me she was horny and we ended up making out during the day. I asked her what triggered this and she said after speaking with her friend she felt more relaxed and this coincided with her being horny. 

The normal excuses I get have been seen her many times before, shes tired, her stomach always hurts just before bed, her breasts her, she makes us stay up so late that nothing will happen and when we go to bed early she is straight on her phone. She doesn’t “trim” down below, which id ont mind but it isn’t the ideal situation. I also got her some sexy underwear AGES ago (9+months) and she has never worn it….despite us having our anniversary the other week (she packed it when we went away but it never got worn!).

We are due to get married in around 18months, so far its been 
post ponded only for financial reasons but in my heart I know going through with this marriage thinking the marriage will fix it is stupid. The night I proposed we had great sex, we continued to have a health sex life for around a month and then it went back to normal (low sex, just not as bad as now). I am scared that if I approach her about this I will sound like such a bad guy. I am effectlively saying that sex is more important to me that marrying her, and although I don’t see it like this I know that is what she will say. 

So I have a few questions really:
1)	I am convinced that her issue is hormonal. Last year together we monitored when we had sex using an iphone app that recorded her menstrual cycle. The only times we had sex/made out were on days when she was at highest fertility. Like clockwork. This is not really the case now because we no longer have sexual activity once a month. Due to this and also the fact her breasts hurts a lot and some other hormonal things I have a feeling that this may be the cause of her low drive. I have mentioned this to her but she is scared, and also I think worried that results will come back saying she is ok and then this leaves us without an answer. Has anyone got any comments on this.

2)	The fact that talking to her friend helped so much (if only for a short time) I think counselling could be good but she won’t do this either, any advice?

3)	Finally any suggestions on how to approach the marriage issue, or at least how I can back up my view point and stop myself coming across as the one in the wrong when I approach this issue. 

Any comments are welcome. thanks


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## humanbecoming (Mar 14, 2012)

You have an 18 month window... Hold off any major purchases, and read this website like mad.


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## MrHappyHat (Oct 24, 2012)

> We are due to get married in around 18months, so far its been post ponded only for financial reasons but in my heart I know going through with this marriage thinking the marriage will fix it is stupid.


It won't get better.



> The only times we had sex/made out were on days when she was at highest fertility. Like clockwork.


Ayup, ovulation sex. It's about the only time my wife gets horny, too.



> Finally any suggestions on how to approach the marriage issue, or at least how I can back up my view point and stop myself coming across as the one in the wrong when I approach this issue.


Ask yourself this: "Is this something you'd contemplate divorcing her over if this went on for years?"

If it is, break off the marriage.

If she's Low Desire now... I don't think it'll get any better, but most likely worse.


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## Dubya (Oct 2, 2012)

Sexless ENGAGEMENT???!!!! 

Abandon ship!

In reference to your stantement about being a bad guy if you bring this up: You are not a bad guy... She may not understand, but sexual fullfilment is a genuine emotional need.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

ben86 said:


> I am scared that if I approach her about this I will sound like such a bad guy. I am effectlively saying that sex is more important to me that marrying her, and although I don’t see it like this I know that is what she will say.


Look, there's no easy way to end an engagement without feelings getting hurt. But you didn't sign a suicide pact. It's obvious that she's just not into you. It's better to end it now than to agree to live the rest of your life in celibacy because you didn't want to piss off her mom.

You're just a normal guy who recognizes that a marriage is a sexual relationship. If your fiance wants to be platonic roommates, then you can do that. And you'll be free to date other women. If she just wants you to serve her while she ignores your needs, then politely decline her offer.



ben86 said:


> 1)	I am convinced that her issue is hormonal. Last year together we monitored when we had sex using an iphone app that recorded her menstrual cycle. The only times we had sex/made out were on days when she was at highest fertility. Like clockwork. This is not really the case now because we no longer have sexual activity once a month. Due to this and also the fact her breasts hurts a lot and some other hormonal things I have a feeling that this may be the cause of her low drive. I have mentioned this to her but she is scared, and also I think worried that results will come back saying she is ok and then this leaves us without an answer. Has anyone got any comments on this.


A woman's libido will usually fluctuate and be the highest when she is ovulating. However, it is unlikely that hormones have completely destroyed her libido. That happens at menopause, not usually in your twenties.



ben86 said:


> 2)	The fact that talking to her friend helped so much (if only for a short time) I think counselling could be good but she won’t do this either, any advice?


If she doesn't want to talk, she doesn't have to talk. You're the one with the problem, not her.



ben86 said:


> 3)	Finally any suggestions on how to approach the marriage issue, or at least how I can back up my view point and stop myself coming across as the one in the wrong when I approach this issue.


Yes. Tell her today that the wedding is off. She might cry and tell you you're a bad guy. So the F what? She might be relieved. You have two possible futures here. The first is where you're a good guy and you marry her and then you live your life without having sex. The second is where you dump her ass like a hot potato, go find another girl who is actually attracted to you, and have a happy life filled with mutually satisfying sex.

You get to decide which way to go.

Good luck.

And check out Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits.

Also, just because she doesn't want to have sex with you doesn't mean that she doesn't want to have sex with anybody else. She might well be having an affair. Or, if she's not now, she will be in a few years. The Coping With Infidelity board is full of stories of men who swore their wives were asexual only to find out that their libidos were just focused on another man.


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## east2west (Oct 19, 2012)

As you get closer to the marriage it will feel harder and harder to back out, there are financial commitments, time commitments, the building expectation of both your families. If you make a big deal about the sex thing you will probably get some. Then in 2 years you will be back here with the same problem. Just get out while you still can. 4 years of bad/no sex and not even married yet? This was simply not meant to be. If you feel like a bad guy leaving now how are you going to feel after you have kids?

Also, I would bet a small amount of money that there is CSA history that you don't know about.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

Sex and intimacy are important needs in a relationship. Sometimes people's needs are different. If those needs are incompatible, it's best to call things off before you commit to a lifetime of that incompatibility. 

It will lead to a lot of hurt, resentment and problems down the road. 

Keep reading the threads here - it will help.

Think about it this way:

I only need about 1200 calories a day to maintain my ideal weight. I don't like to eat more than that and get a bit pissed off if hubby tries to push me to eat more at dinner times.

Hubby needs 3500 calories a day to maintain his ideal weight. He gets miserable and cranky if I don't keep him fed and buy lots of snacks to help him do that. I can't deprive him of those extra snacks and calories - they are his basic needs. If I were unwilling to do that, it would only be a matter of time before he would start looking at eating out, don't ya think? (maybe this analogy sucks but it was lunch time here...)


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I really can't wrap my mind around this. You've been together 9 YEARS. Still not married. Engaged 2.5 YEARS!!! And still another 1.5 years to go? I've never heard of a 4 year engagement, especially after you were already together 6.5 years before you got engaged. This sort of behavior indicates to me that one of you has been brought kicking and screaming into marriage. Afraid to commit much? Perhaps she doesn't want to have sex because in her heart she's been thinking (for years and years) that it's far past time for you to fish or cut bait. Oh, and for the record, my advice is to cut bait. One (or both) of you hasn't been motivated to pull the trigger on marriage for 9 years, so someone's heart just isn't in it. Add to that the no-sex thing and I have to ask....why bother? What are you going to get out of being married? It's not like a wedding ring is going to make her MORE sexual. Do you have kids with her?


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> If she doesn't want to talk, she doesn't have to talk. You're the one with the problem, not her.


I never buy this. An engagement is a very serious commitment between two people. Like a marriage, any problem that is her's is his and vice versa. So if HE has a problem, SHE also has a problem and if she wants it to go away, she needs to help work on the solution.

Besides, how is this going to be fixed by just him? It takes her input (and eventual output) to fix this.


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## ben86 (Nov 13, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> I never buy this. An engagement is a very serious commitment between two people. Like a marriage, any problem that is her's is his and vice versa. So if HE has a problem, SHE also has a problem and if she wants it to go away, she needs to help work on the solution.
> 
> Besides, how is this going to be fixed by just him? It takes her input (and eventual output) to fix this.


Completely agree with this. If i felt it was just my problem then i probably would just walk away. But this is a problem for the relationship, one i cant fix or even work out properly without her.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

EJECT GOOSE!

EJECT!

(Top Gun Rreference)


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

ben86 said:


> I know it seems strange but in context its not, for us anyway.
> We started dating very young, she was 15 i was 16! so the 9 years starts from that age. We have been in a constant solid relationship since that age but obviously we have grow together and the relationship has changed as we have got older.
> 
> We moved in together just after we got engaged and have been living together for 2 yrs. The only reason for the delay in the engagement was financial, shortly after we got enagegd i lost my job.
> ...


That makes a lot more sense. In any case, I still think now that you see the direction it's going I'd get out while you still can. You've discovered early an incompatibility that is unlikely to get better. More likely to get worse.


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## ben86 (Nov 13, 2012)

I knew the type of advice i get here would be to leave her. I would probably want to give the same advice. BUT what if she wants to change things as well. We are currentl brushing this under the carpet, neither one of us talking....but we have done in the past and she does want to change, SHE thinks its a problem she just doesnt know why and it make her upset talking about it because effectively we are talking about why shes isnt "normal". 
If she doesnt want to change, or starts to deny any problem then i'll feel alone in this and it'll ruin our relationship for good. 
My problem is that a conversation about the issue doesnt turn into action.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

In which case, leaving her (or attempting to) might just be the event she needs for her to take notice in a serious way. Your actions over the years have told her that this is not a deal breaker for you. That's a problem. Because if your actions don't align with your words, then it's the actions that they actually believe. So if you show her by your actions that it's truly a deal breaker, then (if she want's the relationship enough) that will be the spark that starts real change.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

OP, if your engagement period is sexless, it's just a taste of what your marriage is likely to be. I don't know what to suggest, because this is a major incompatibility between you...


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## east2west (Oct 19, 2012)

The time to fix sex problems is at the point when they start. Sounds like you're about 4 years late on that one. You might talk and she might decide she wants to work on it, but you won't know if any change is real or she is just appeasing you to get passed the wedding day, until its too late. You will find yourself in a "bait and switch" situation later on, but you will feel like an idiot because you should have known in advance that you were taking the bait.

Sorry to be harsh but this is pretty cut and dry.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Your post hits me on a bit of personal level as I am also engaged but also having some issuals sexually (though nothing like what you are having, you have it WAY, WAY worse than me). I'd like to respond...



ben86 said:


> To introduce myself I have been in a relationship for the last 9 yrs, we met in our teens and got engaged 2.5yrs ago. For at least the last 4 years we have had problems due to a lack of sex in our relationship due to my partners low sex drive and lack of desire. Since this started becoming an issue it has been getting steadily worse and currently so far this year we have had sex twice.


Why are you still together and why did you get engaged knowing it's an issue? Is there anything you can think of that may have triggered this change in her, such as a traumatic event, a child, major stressors, etc? What does she say is the reason behind her drop off in sex?



ben86 said:


> I always initiate sex and it is always rejected. She is not so opposed to other forms of sexual activity, however she is not always an active participant. By this I mean the majority of my sexual needs are met by “dry humping”, this being her laying on her back, both of us with PJ’s on, I’ll kiss her neck but get no reaction from her, no kissing, no moving hands over me, and very very very little sound. Afterwards the main reaction is that her legs hurt. This IS out sex life.


Your fiancee gives a new defination to the term 'having sex with a dead fish.' You don't even get skin contact or fake interest. It is clear you are starving for emotional contact through sex or you likely wouldn't even have any interest in this sort of behaviour. And it's clear she doesn't want much, if anything. to do with this. You said your sex life only became an issue five year into your relationship, so what was sex like before this for you?



ben86 said:


> Even these events are rare, and on every occasion I have to nag and bug her, she will then give in by telling me literally to get on with it. I sometimes ask her to get onto of me, but that is ALWAYS a no. These situations happen maybe once a week unless she is really putting up a fight and not giving into my nagging.


While I understand your frustration and desire for sex, 'nagging' and 'bugging' for sex isn't going to produce any better results, and in fact likely only worsen the issue. She may start feeling like something just to get off on and when you go there, it's hard to come back. Also, nagging and bugging for sex is just other words for begging for sex, and this is never attractive, and also I bet doesn't leave you feeling to highly of yourself. Take the high road and stop asking.



ben86 said:


> Probably about once every 3-4 months I will give her oral sex, I normally use this as a tool to get a really decent make out session with her and she does enjoy oral sex, however this never leads to full sex or oral sex for myself, it simply leads to her being an active participant in making out.


So you give her oral with the main objective still being about you? I'd imagine she's picked up on that, so it doesn't really add the benefit you are looking for. Rather, she's not likely going to enjoy oral as much as you think she will because she knows you are just using it as a means to get laid. That could be why it nevers leads anywhere. As well, it sounds like your other sexual sessions are all about you (not by your choice, I know, but they still are) so maybe she views this as a means to get her own without satisfying you.



ben86 said:


> I have spoken to her about this issue and she sees it as a problem. Around 4 months ago we had been discussing this issue and trying not to turn it into an argument. She then spoke to a woman at her work about it and afterwards for a few days she was my dream sexual partner. We had sex (one of the two times this year), the next day when driving she was talking about the sex and was telling me she was horny and we ended up making out during the day. I asked her what triggered this and she said after speaking with her friend she felt more relaxed and this coincided with her being horny.


I agree with you, talk and MC would be good. That said, did you ever ask what it was her friend told her that made her more relaxed and comfortable? Maybe you could even suggest talking to this friend with your fiancee as well.



ben86 said:


> The normal excuses I get have been seen her many times before, shes tired, her stomach always hurts just before bed, her breasts her, she makes us stay up so late that nothing will happen and when we go to bed early she is straight on her phone. She doesn’t “trim” down below, which id ont mind but it isn’t the ideal situation. I also got her some sexy underwear AGES ago (9+months) and she has never worn it….despite us having our anniversary the other week (she packed it when we went away but it never got worn!).


Excuses are just a long, polite, way to say "I don't want to have sex with you right now." So yes, you'll get the usual lines.

As for the underwear, classic move to pack it but not wear it. By bringing it, she avoids the fight about not bringing it, but blames the fact it couldn't be used on various reasons that were unexpected, or simply gives the usual lines of "There wasn't a good time" or "I felt silly wearing them." You need to call her on those things.



ben86 said:


> We are due to get married in around 18months, so far its been
> post ponded only for financial reasons but in my heart I know going through with this marriage thinking the marriage will fix it is stupid. The night I proposed we had great sex, we continued to have a health sex life for around a month and then it went back to normal (low sex, just not as bad as now). I am scared that if I approach her about this I will sound like such a bad guy. I am effectlively saying that sex is more important to me that marrying her, and although I don’t see it like this I know that is what she will say.


A) Who cares about the engagement night sex. That's in the past. Fond memory, but that's it.

B) No matter what you say it won't be good. Just like how you know that she'll twist whatever you say into "you're choosing sex over me," it also applies that no matter what you say it'll come down to you telling her you don't want to marry her anymore. So just be honest. Why lie about who you are?

I've used this example before but I'll do so again here since you're new. My fiancee has a huge phobia of ants. Terrified of them. Makes zero sense, but it's a fact. Now I know my fiancee is terrified of them and I know she needs a supportive husband who will go out of his way to help prevent these things from getting into our house. If I didn't, she could (and likely would) leave me. Does it seem silly? To you and me, perhaps, but to her it is what life is. She needs protection from ants.

So who cares if you need sex in a marriage. If she thinks that's silly, fine, but it is what life is for you. You need sex. If she doesn't want to provide that and doesn't want to work on helping with that, that's fine, but you don't have to stay and she should accept that fact. If she can't, to bad. You've been willing to work on the issue and it appears she's done little to help with it.

Let her say what she wants. Be true to you.



ben86 said:


> So I have a few questions really:
> 1)	I am convinced that her issue is hormonal. Last year together we monitored when we had sex using an iphone app that recorded her menstrual cycle. The only times we had sex/made out were on days when she was at highest fertility. Like clockwork. This is not really the case now because we no longer have sexual activity once a month. Due to this and also the fact her breasts hurts a lot and some other hormonal things I have a feeling that this may be the cause of her low drive. I have mentioned this to her but she is scared, and also I think worried that results will come back saying she is ok and then this leaves us without an answer. Has anyone got any comments on this.


Really, does it matter what her problem is? Her issue could be your cologne, the old ceiling fan in the living room, the fact the street wasn't paved since 1983 or that the moon isn't colored purple. If she's not trying to solve the issue with you, it's irrelevant what it is. It'll always be a problem until she wants to look at figuring it out and solving it. Work on that first, not the actual problem itself. Keep working the MC angle, and also try for a doctors appointment with this subject being the main topic.



ben86 said:


> 2)	The fact that talking to her friend helped so much (if only for a short time) I think counselling could be good but she won’t do this either, any advice?


Point out the benefit it had when she talked to her friend. Suggest talking to her friend again, with you also there.



ben86 said:


> 3)	Finally any suggestions on how to approach the marriage issue, or at least how I can back up my view point and stop myself coming across as the one in the wrong when I approach this issue.


Point out that there is zero difference between living with your best friend (other than her) and her, other than the sex.

Really everything pretty much in a marriage you can get from someone else. You can get money from work, emotional support from friends, etc. But sex, it is either with your wife or bust. So why would you stay if you have to plead and beg for a type of sex that even the Pope would like say is rather sad? I mean, you are marrying someone who will pretty much only give you the type of sex a dog gets from a sleeping owner (minus the PJ's inbetween btw). Ask her if she thinks that's reasonable for anyone to sign up with.

All the best to you my friend. My issues are more to do with variety in our sex life, which is why I'm not leaning towards leaving the engagement. If I had what you have though dude, I'd have said adios a LONG time ago.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

ben86 said:


> I knew the type of advice i get here would be to leave her. I would probably want to give the same advice. *BUT what if she wants to change things as well.* We are currentl brushing this under the carpet, neither one of us talking....but we have done in the past and she does want to change, SHE thinks its a problem she just doesnt know why and it make her upset talking about it because effectively we are talking about why shes isnt "normal".
> If she doesnt want to change, or starts to deny any problem then i'll feel alone in this and it'll ruin our relationship for good.
> My problem is that a conversation about the issue doesnt turn into action.


BUT she doesn't. So who cares?

She has said she wants to change, but do you know that for sure? I mean if someone wants to change they either do or don't but usually it's those who actually do try to change that you know are serious. Has she ever done anything to make you think she's trying to fix the issue?

Think of it like this. If she was an alcoholic and said she wanted to change, but just kept on drinking, how long would you stay before you ackowledged the act she isn't and left? Likely a lot less than 4 years, nevermind actually doubling down on the relationship by getting married.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

kingsfan said:


> I never buy this. An engagement is a very serious commitment between two people. Like a marriage, any problem that is her's is his and vice versa. So if HE has a problem, SHE also has a problem and if she wants it to go away, she needs to help work on the solution.
> 
> Besides, how is this going to be fixed by just him? It takes her input (and eventual output) to fix this.


I agree. But, I was just using his fiance's voice for a moment. The fact is that he can't force her to go to the doctor, or go to a counselor, or change her attitudes or behavior in any way. She's behaving exactly how she wants to. He's the one that's not happy.

Yes, in a perfect world, one fiance would care that the other isn't happy. But we don't live in a perfect world. His fiance obviously doesn't care that much about him. So he can accept that, or continue to buy her excuses that there's some kind of a magic bullet that they can discover, or rather that he can discover, since she's unwilling to do any work, and after the wedding, things will improve.

That's impractical. He's the only one willing to take action. And the best action he can take is to bravely run away.


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

Ben86,

I am sorry you are here. I hope you will listen to reason and use your head. This is the time of your life when sex should be a MAJOR part of your relationship. You don't even get skin to skin contact! There is something major league wrong with your girl friend and YOU can't change it. You have complained multiple times about the situation, per your post, and nothing has changed. Please don't destroy yourself by marrying this woman. THINGS WILL ONLY GET WORSE!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

- Where do you live now?
- How long were you out of work?
- Does she also have a good job? 
- Do you already have children?

Are you saving up for a "big wedding"? If you are living together now, what is about the next 18 months that will change your finances? 

Have you ever had a friend who was a girl that you liked but were not attracted to? 

A healthy 24 year old woman who dislikes sex with you, simply is not attracted to you. It really is ok. Does not make you or her bad people. It makes you incompatible. 

She is MUCH more likely to cheat on you because she wants sex, just not with you. 

This isn't about sex, it is about compatibility. 



ben86 said:


> I found this forum a few days ago and have not been able to stop reading posts ever since. It was such a relief to read stories by people in the same situation as me and to hear different view points. I have no doubt that this forum will be of some real help.
> 
> To introduce myself I have been in a relationship for the last 9 yrs, we met in our teens and got engaged 2.5yrs ago. For at least the last 4 years we have had problems due to a lack of sex in our relationship due to my partners low sex drive and lack of desire. Since this started becoming an issue it has been getting steadily worse and currently so far this year we have had sex twice.
> 
> ...


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

kingsfan said:


> Rather, she's not likely going to enjoy oral as much as you think she will because she knows you are just using it as a means to get laid. That could be why it nevers leads anywhere. As well, it sounds like your other sexual sessions are all about you (not by your choice, I know, but they still are) so maybe she views this as a means to get her own without satisfying you.


Huh? Who gives oral sex that isn't looking to get laid? When you're not looking to get laid, oral sex is a strange thing to engage in.

His girlfriend will rarely allow him to pleasure her orally, which she then responds to by kissing him, but nothing else. And you think that's all about him? It seems to be all about her to me.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> Huh? Who gives oral sex that isn't looking to get laid? When you're not looking to get laid, oral sex is a strange thing to engage in.
> 
> His girlfriend will rarely allow him to pleasure her orally, which she then responds to by kissing him, but nothing else. And you think that's all about him? It seems to be all about her to me.


She's not giving, he is. And he is looking to get laid, she isn't.

Btw, the OP didn't say his fiancee will rarely allow him to pleasure her orally, rather he said he only does it every 3-4 months. Maybe that's all he's offering? If so, that's a problem, which is what I'm pointing out as to why she make just feel like she'll 'take what's her's'.

I also never said it is all about him. The rest of my post you took this quote from shows that I'm spreading the blame fairly equally, since it seems they both are contributing to the issue, though i think she's contributing on purpose while he's doing it unconciously through his actions.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

ben86 said:


> BUT what if she wants to change things as well.


What if a frog had wings? He wouldn't bump his ass hopping. But it's kind of a stupid question, isn't it? Frogs don't have wings. And your girlfriend doesn't want to have sex with you. Sure, if she did, it would be great. But, she doesn't. Sorry.



ben86 said:


> We are currentl brushing this under the carpet, neither one of us talking....but we have done in the past and she does want to change, SHE thinks its a problem she just doesnt know why and it make her upset talking about it because effectively we are talking about why shes isnt "normal".


So, there are two possibilities. Either your girlfriend isn't attracted to you in the least, but doesn't like to discuss it with you. Or, she's just crazy. Either way, it's bad news for you. So this is your cue to cut out the back, Jack. Make a new plan, Stan. There must be 50 ways to leave your lover.



ben86 said:


> If she doesnt want to change, or starts to deny any problem then i'll feel alone in this and it'll ruin our relationship for good.
> My problem is that a conversation about the issue doesnt turn into action.


You're contradicting yourself here. You're assuming that her spending four years telling you that she recognizes that it's a problem, but she can't quite get motivated enough to take action means that she really DOES want to take action? I make the opposite interpretation. Words are easy to fake. Actions are hard to fake. She's saying one thing and doing the opposite. Believe her actions. Not her words.

Seriously, Ben. You're engaged. This is the time in your relationship that should be effortless. You should be all over each other constantly. You should be thinking that you have the perfect relationship and that you'll never have a single problem. Of course, you'll be wrong. But problems should pop up after the marriage. Not before.

Instead of that, you're in the middle of the worst sh!t storm imaginable and you're seriously considering signing up for a lifetime of it. If you do, I can only say that you'll get nothing less than you deserve.

Repeat this line over and over again. "She's not my problem." You've got to take care of yourself. You haven't made any vows to her yet. This is her trying out for the role of your wife. This is her best foot forward. After the wedding, she will stop trying so hard. Now there's a scary thought, eh?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

K,
That is not how this works. If she wants/needs something different from him in order to be willing to have sex she needs to tell him that. 

Read his post. When they get in bed early she gets on her phone right away. 

She needs to say what she wants - and not lie about tummy aches etc. And he needs to stop being delusional - she does not desire him. This started 4 years ago - when they were 20/21 years old and both healthy. 




kingsfan said:


> She's not giving, he is. And he is looking to get laid, she isn't.
> 
> Btw, the OP didn't say his fiancee will rarely allow him to pleasure her orally, rather he said he only does it every 3-4 months. Maybe that's all he's offering? If so, that's a problem, which is what I'm pointing out as to why she make just feel like she'll 'take what's her's'.
> 
> I also never said it is all about him. The rest of my post you took this quote from shows that I'm spreading the blame fairly equally, since it seems they both are contributing to the issue, though i think she's contributing on purpose while he's doing it unconciously through his actions.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> K,
> That is not how this works. If she wants/needs something different from him in order to be willing to have sex she needs to tell him that.
> 
> Read his post. When they get in bed early she gets on her phone right away.
> ...


I have no idea why you quoted my posted and said I'm wrong when essentially I'm saying what you just said.

I said she's doing this on purpose IMO (allowing this issue to go on that is). She does need to talk to him, but she's not, thus allowing it to go on purpose. His actions are only further encouraging this because, even though he does talk about it, for four years now he's stood by and not only let this continue, but also got engaged to her.

They are both at fault.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

kingsfan said:


> She's not giving, he is. And he is looking to get laid, she isn't.


Whatever. If I offered to kiss my wife only if she blew me first, she wouldn't really see that as a good deal for her.

And the OP also stated that the oral doesn't lead to sex anyway. It just leads to kissing. So if he's being as selfish as you are accusing him of being, he's also being an idiot because he knows he's not going to get laid.



kingsfan said:


> Btw, the OP didn't say his fiancee will rarely allow him to pleasure her orally, rather he said he only does it every 3-4 months. Maybe that's all he's offering? If so, that's a problem, which is what I'm pointing out as to why she make just feel like she'll 'take what's her's'.


The OP's girlfriend has stated that she never, ever wants sex. So, him offering oral sex, which she refuses to reciprocate beyond kissing, once a quarter is not really the problem. I'm sure if oral sex led to sex, the OP would offer it as often as his girlfriend liked.



kingsfan said:


> I also never said it is all about him.


I was paraphrasing. You actually said that the main objective was still about him. I thought that was close enough.



kingsfan said:


> The rest of my post you took this quote from shows that I'm spreading the blame fairly equally, since it seems they both are contributing to the issue, though i think she's contributing on purpose while he's doing it unconciously through his actions.


It's possible that the OP is killing his girlfriend's attraction for him. But I agree with you that he should just bail out now.


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## SpinDaddy (Nov 12, 2012)

Well Brother, let me say . . . *there is no problem that cannot be overcome in a strong marriage but there is no problem that any marriage will ever cure* – except your tax filing status with the IRS.

After nine years, what you see is what you get and it doesn’t sounds like the woman is of the inclination to try and fix it anyways.

I empathize man. I suffered a similar relationship (8—years) through high school, undergraduate and graduate schools; plus the purchase of an engagement ring. Nice enough gal but thank God she dumped me before we made the relationship a covenant. 

In 9 months, she married a clerk from a hardware store that had an 80’s hair band thing going on. I traveled the world, started a career and married an awesome woman and the mother of my children.

Finally, absolutely understand that if you’re going to quash this deal you don’t need to substantiate your opinion or care about coming across as the one in the right or the wrong or whatever who cares – deal is off, negotiations are through. Back in the day when I was suffering a similar fate, that was the one thing I wish I understood better. You can’t be everybody’s friend, not everybody’s is going to like you, chances are they’ll spite and make fun of you – drop them and move on.

That doesn’t mean you need to be ugly or mean – she needs to move on as much as you. Find herself an 80’s hair band guy maybe.


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## ben86 (Nov 13, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> She's not giving, he is. And he is looking to get laid, she isn't.
> 
> Btw, the OP didn't say his fiancee will rarely allow him to pleasure her orally, rather he said he only does it every 3-4 months. Maybe that's all he's offering? If so, that's a problem, which is what I'm pointing out as to why she make just feel like she'll 'take what's her's'.
> 
> I also never said it is all about him. The rest of my post you took this quote from shows that I'm spreading the blame fairly equally, since it seems they both are contributing to the issue, though i think she's contributing on purpose while he's doing it unconciously through his actions.


Your earlier post was spot on and i fully agree. She does know the only reason i give her oral sex is because i want it to lead to more, hence she is wise to this. Also yes i do only offer oral sex at this frequency...at these times in my mind its like right i'll offer her something she at least likes as a tool to get something i want. She knows full well about this and sometimes says no to the oral for this reason.


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## ben86 (Nov 13, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> It's possible that the OP is killing his girlfriend's attraction for him. But I agree with you that he should just bail out now.


I think your right, I am killing her attraction to me. She has clearly said that me "begging" just makes her not want it. Also because we are in this weird sexual rut I dont try anymore, no romance nothing. For example we had sex a few months ago (one of the two times this year), it was great, we were talking about relationships and sex in general, i gave her a massage, we had candles, we made love. 

I also want to highlight that the extent of this sexless period is not 4 years. Even last year we were having sex once a month (in line with her peak fertility). The couple of years before it was around twice a month on average....mostly months were we have sex 1-2times a week followed by a month of no sex. So this intense no sex, no proper sexual contact has really been this year only. However I saw all the signs, i only wish i'd done more 4 years ago.....the thing was 4 years ago when we went without sex for a month or two and i started to worry and get frustrated the sex would pick right up again to the level i wanted, therefore i took to action. I didnt actually see it as a proper potential issue until last year when the sex was once a month so in line with her ferility. Just wanted to highlight this because i couldnt have been in a relationship that is sexual like it is right now, if it had lasted for the past 4 years.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> Whatever. If I offered to kiss my wife only if she blew me first, she wouldn't really see that as a good deal for her.
> 
> And the OP also stated that the oral doesn't lead to sex anyway. It just leads to kissing. So if he's being as selfish as you are accusing him of being, he's also being an idiot because he knows he's not going to get laid.


In essence, I AM calling the OP an idiot (not really an actual idiot, but in regards to this particular issue perhaps).

Don't forget, he has stayed in this situation for FOUR years now. It's possible that blowing his wife just to get a make out session is a victory in his eyes. I think at this stage he's willing to take anything that's movement in a more affectionate direction, including making out. 



PHTlump said:


> The OP's girlfriend has stated that she never, ever wants sex. So, him offering oral sex, which she refuses to reciprocate beyond kissing, once a quarter is not really the problem. I'm sure if oral sex led to sex, the OP would offer it as often as his girlfriend liked.


I agree that this isn't the problem. That said, all we can advise is something that HE can do. Offering more oral sex isn't the solution but it could be part of the overall solution.




PHTlump said:


> I was paraphrasing. You actually said that the main objective was still about him. I thought that was close enough.


I think in essence it is all about him in regards to this thread. While I do think she is to blame on a larger angle, due simply to the fact she isn't communicating honestly with him by not telling him what is really going on here (likely that she doesn't find him attractive or maybe even isn't in love with him anymore but is just to weak/afraid to call it off), he is the only one that is going to read this and be able to act on it. So while the problems aren't all his at all, and are likely in the minority actually, he is the main objective.


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## ben86 (Nov 13, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> It's possible that blowing his wife just to get a make out session is a victory in his eyes. I think at this stage he's willing to take anything that's movement in a more affectionate direction, including making out.


Correct. This is how I look at it. However seeing it written down makes me feel stupid. Instead of putting my efforts towards trying to get her to be sexual with me by trying to lure her in by giving her oral sex....i should instead possibly try a more romantic approach (this may work until she realises that again i am only doing this to get sex). 

Therefore i'm kind of teaching her that any "nice" thing i do is simply to get sex. She has commented on this trait before, and is suspicious when ever i offer massages, oral sex etc. In these cases its then like whatever im doing to get the sex is not longer important, even if she likes it because she then feels pressure due to the outcome im expecting.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

ben86 said:


> I also want to highlight that the extent of this sexless period is not 4 years. Even last year we were having sex once a month (in line with her peak fertility). The couple of years before it was around twice a month on average....mostly months were we have sex 1-2times a week followed by a month of no sex. So this intense no sex, no proper sexual contact has really been this year only. However I saw all the signs, i only wish i'd done more 4 years ago.....the thing was 4 years ago when we went without sex for a month or two and i started to worry and get frustrated the sex would pick right up again to the level i wanted, therefore i took to action. I didnt actually see it as a proper potential issue until last year when the sex was once a month so in line with her ferility. Just wanted to highlight this because i couldnt have been in a relationship that is sexual like it is right now, if it had lasted for the past 4 years.


Two questions:

A) 1-2 times a month really isn't all that often by most peoples standards, yet you say this wasn't a problem for you. Since, in terms of your relationship, only you and her need to be happy, what level of frequency are you shooting for here? I know most people (myself included) aim for 2-3 times a week, on an average.Are you truly happy with 1-2 a month?

B) Pulling something from your previous post about her and you having sex when she was on her period, is there any chance she was trying to get pregnant? If so, did you know about it? If not, any chance she may have been trying to trap you with a kid? Do you use protection?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

ben86 said:


> Correct. This is how I look at it. However seeing it written down makes me feel stupid. Instead of putting my efforts towards trying to get her to be sexual with me by trying to lure her in by giving her oral sex....i should instead possibly try a more romantic approach (this may work until she realises that again i am only doing this to get sex).
> 
> Therefore i'm kind of teaching her that any "nice" thing i do is simply to get sex. She has commented on this trait before, and is suspicious when ever i offer massages, oral sex etc. In these cases its then like whatever im doing to get the sex is not longer important, even if she likes it because she then feels pressure due to the outcome im expecting.


Actually what you are teaching her is that when she treats you poorly you reward her. You are actually reinforcing her bad behavior. Turning on the romance while she continues to treat you badly will backfire in a big way. Next you will be trying to cook and cleaning more to get sex. Rewarding bad behavior.


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## ben86 (Nov 13, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> Two questions:
> 
> A) 1-2 times a month really isn't all that often by most peoples standards, yet you say this wasn't a problem for you. Since, in terms of your relationship, only you and her need to be happy, what level of frequency are you shooting for here? I know most people (myself included) aim for 2-3 times a week, on an average.Are you truly happy with 1-2 a month?
> 
> B) Pulling something from your previous post about her and you having sex when she was on her period, is there any chance she was trying to get pregnant? If so, did you know about it? If not, any chance she may have been trying to trap you with a kid? Do you use protection?


I really want to be having some form of sex 2-3 times a week, i wasnt happy last year when it was once a month and before that i wasnt happy when we averaged around 1-2 times a month. The only reason I could bear the 1-2 times a month average is because this would be in the form of a month having weekly sex and then a month with no sex. Weekly sex i can live with and so i'd be fine for a month and then start getting frustrated. I do have quite a high sex drive, but these past couple of years has wrapped what i would now be happy with, at the moment i'd think once a month was good!

In response to the pregancy thing she wasnt trying to get preganant, we always use protection. Also it was me that noticed the colleration between when she was horny and her fertily days, using this iphone app. She hadnt even noticed.


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

Strap on a parachute and bail out.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

ben86 said:


> I really want to be having some form of sex 2-3 times a week, i wasnt happy last year when it was once a month and before that i wasnt happy when we averaged around 1-2 times a month. The only reason I could bear the 1-2 times a month average is because this would be in the form of a month having weekly sex and then a month with no sex. Weekly sex i can live with and so i'd be fine for a month and then start getting frustrated. I do have quite a high sex drive, but these past couple of years has wrapped what i would now be happy with, at the moment i'd think once a month was good!
> 
> In response to the pregancy thing she wasnt trying to get preganant, we always use protection. Also it was me that noticed the colleration between when she was horny and her fertily days, using this iphone app. She hadnt even noticed.


At your age - that's not unreasonable. For crying out loud, I'm 40 and my husband is 50 and we have sex at least 2 - 3 times a week if not more.

It still goes back to a compatibility question. Your needs and her needs are not compatible. Sex frequency is not going to increase when you say 'I Do' but getting out of the relationship is going to become more complicated.

Back out now - start working on you. Split up with this girl and try dating other people. I guarantee you'll find a woman with a drive more equal to yours out there.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

ben86 said:


> I think your right, I am killing her attraction to me. She has clearly said that me "begging" just makes her not want it. Also because we are in this weird sexual rut I dont try anymore, no romance nothing. For example we had sex a few months ago (one of the two times this year), it was great, we were talking about relationships and sex in general, i gave her a massage, we had candles, we made love.


Of course, begging will kill her attraction. So that's on you. However, you wouldn't be begging if you got sex more than once every full moon. So that's on her.



ben86 said:


> I also want to highlight that the extent of this sexless period is not 4 years. Even last year we were having sex once a month (in line with her peak fertility). The couple of years before it was around twice a month on average....mostly months were we have sex 1-2times a week followed by a month of no sex. So this intense no sex, no proper sexual contact has really been this year only.


Once a month or less is the clinical definition of a sexless relationship. So you've been clinically sexless for two years. And you weren't exactly setting any records before then, either.

I know you may not believe me. But there are women out there that will actually have sex with you several times a week. There are women out there who have been married for decades who still have sex with their husbands once a week, or more. You act like you've found the only vagina on Earth and you're just a victim to its whims. It's a vagina, not a comet. It can open for business every day.



ben86 said:


> However I saw all the signs, i only wish i'd done more 4 years ago.....the thing was 4 years ago when we went without sex for a month or two and i started to worry and get frustrated the sex would pick right up again to the level i wanted, therefore i took to action. I didnt actually see it as a proper potential issue until last year when the sex was once a month so in line with her ferility. Just wanted to highlight this because i couldnt have been in a relationship that is sexual like it is right now, if it had lasted for the past 4 years.


I don't know about that. It sounds like your girlfriend has been stringing you along by providing you with exactly the amount of sex that will keep you around, but no more than that. The bad news for you is that, as you have learned, this amount tends to decrease. Four years ago, you needed weekly sex. Two years ago, you needed monthly sex. Now, you need bi-annual sex. By the time the wedding rolls around, you should just register at Home Depot so you can get a ball peen hammer to take on your honeymoon and let your wife whack you in the nuts. It's not like you'll be needing them.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

ben86 said:


> Correct. This is how I look at it. However seeing it written down makes me feel stupid. Instead of putting my efforts towards trying to get her to be sexual with me by trying to lure her in by giving her oral sex....i should instead possibly try a more romantic approach (this may work until she realises that again i am only doing this to get sex).
> 
> Therefore i'm kind of teaching her that any "nice" thing i do is simply to get sex. She has commented on this trait before, and is suspicious when ever i offer massages, oral sex etc. In these cases its then like whatever im doing to get the sex is not longer important, even if she likes it because she then feels pressure due to the outcome im expecting.


While this flies in the face of your goal for more sex, as a short term solution to her anxiety over equating nice things to sexual expectations, try this.

Tell her you think she does believe all of your nice efforts equate to wanting sex. I assume she will agree that she does think that. In response, tell her that ISN'T the truth, that sometimes you do this, but sometimes you just want to do nice things for her. Then tell her for the next month, you won't ask for, or expect sex at all, no matter what (unless she offers of course). Leave it up to her. 

Then for the entire month, do nice things for her. But only do things that you can continue doing long-term. Don't bait and switch on her. If you like giving backrubs, give her backrubs. If you like buying her flowers, get her flowers. Whatever works.

It'll give her a month to enjoy being around you with out any pressure. Be sure to tell her that you will after that month start to want sex again, so she knows this isn't just a neverending thing, but for this one month she'll have no pressure for sex.

Since you've gone years with a sexual issue between yourself, what's one more month? After that month, if she still shows zero sexual interest in you, get ready to walk. If she does show you interest though, even slight, tell her you appreciate it and continue to do nice things for her and see if the frequency continues to build until it gets to whatever level you are aiming for.

One other thing during your talk, tell her that while you don't letting her 'lead' when it comes to sex, you aren't going to simply never ask for sex ever again. No one should ever have that level of control over a sexual relationship where they are the only one who can say when, where and how.

While you do all these nice things for her though, be sure to regain your alpha male so to speak. Make her still pull her weight around the house and do her fair share in all other things. You are in a relationship, which is like a partnership. 50/50. Not a boss/employee situation. It's great to want to do things for your partner, but she still has to pull her own weight, and goes for all things, including sexually. That's why you're only willing to do the nice guy thing for her a month and not forever. Eventually she needs to try and pull her end of the sexual relationship further forward or it's not going to work.


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## Cupcake37 (Nov 19, 2011)

Hi Ben,

I read your post and can relate to a lot of what you have written. I am the female version of you 10 years down the line and if I could offer you one word of advice, it would be don't it! You are engaged and things are not right and haven't been for a while. It will only get worse once you get married and when children come along forget it!

I am convined that my husband is asexual, he isn't interested in sex at all and we have gone years without sex. Things have improved slightly and I started to keep a sex diary, we have done it 8 times this year so far. I can't begin to tell you what this does to a person. I feel so lonely, hurt and rejected and he makes me feel worthless. The worst thing is he knows that I am not happy and doesn't really seem bothered. I have actually reached a stage with him now where I have shut off from him. he makes me feel like I am begging him for sex. I really don't want to be with a person like that. I want to be with a man who is up for it most of the time, can't keep his hands off me. When we do it, it feel like he is doing it to shut me up! For the record I am fit and attractive and have no problem attracting men( don't mean to sound big headed but haven't let myself go with age!)

Although you may think that you can change things, in my expereince things may improve for a while but quite quickly will revert back to normal. I have just given up trying now. I am bitterly disappointed with my marriage and feel unloved and unwanted every day. It just feels like a complete waste and I think of all of the years of sex I have missed out on.

Please think very carefully about what you are doing, I wouldn't wish what I have on anybody
X


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

It's a bad guy thing to expect enthusiastic sex often in a marriage?

It's not that sex is more important than such an such... It's a matter of are you at all important to your fiancée, which you're clearly not... Don't let lazy-female thinking brainwash you into thinking you're the bad guy here... Cancel NOW... Read how many people here have sex issues in their marriage that weren't there during engagement... Read what they're going through... You have advance notice. Don't blow it. If anything you should thank your wife she is pulling the bait & switch now instead of later!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

You need to 'man up'. You need to tell her that getting married is not going to happen. That you either need to break up or you need to go to counseling to discuss this issue with sex. Until the sex issue is resolved, the engagement is over.

She will be angry. She will tell you that you are wrong to only think of sex. Tell her that sex is an important part of any marriage and that you aren't getting married until this issue is resolved. 

Do some research and find a counselor in your area that specializes in sexuality in marriage. Book an appointment and then tell your fiance that you guys are going there to solve YOUR (as in both of yours) problem.

Here is what will happen:

1) You will call off the marriage due to the sex issue
2) She will step up her attitude in regards to having sex to avoid going to counseling and to avoid get the marriage back on schedule.
3) You will feel everything is getting better and will get re-engaged.

Please don't fall for this. The problem will not go away on its own. She might be able to step up for a while, but it won't be sustainable. Once you are married, the sex will stop again.

Please insist on counseling no matter how sexy she 'all of a sudden' becomes.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

ben86 said:


> Instead of putting my efforts towards trying to get her to be sexual with me by trying to lure her in by giving her oral sex....i should instead possibly try a more romantic approach (this may work until she realises that again i am only doing this to get sex).


That's a bad idea. I'm assuming that you already take her out on dates and occasionally do nice things for her. If so, that's all the romance that is required to maintain a woman's sex drive. If you're already doing that and you're talking about upping it by giving her regular massages and covering the bed with rose petals, then you're talking about crashing and burning.

A night like that work for a woman who is already into you. Your problem is that your girlfriend isn't into you. And a candlelight bath isn't the solution to that. In fact, she'll just see it as pathetic.



ben86 said:


> In these cases its then like whatever im doing to get the sex is not longer important, even if she likes it because she then feels pressure due to the outcome im expecting.


She doesn't feel any pressure. She may say that she does. But she's had sex with you twice this year. She's been to the dentist as many times as she's had sex with you. And that's because she probably enjoys them both equally.

You might be able to regain her interest by pulling back and engaging her less. Give her some space. Get some interesting hobbies of your own. Go kayaking, or mountain biking. Spend some time with other people without her. Go get an interesting life. At that point, she may want to share it.

But honestly, why would you want to bother with all that crap? Your girlfriend has proven to you that she has no attraction to the baseline you. You're going to have to jump through hoops for the rest of your life just to maintain her interest. Now, I would recommend something like that for a man who was already married. Particularly if such a man had children. But you don't. You can end it with a phone call. No lawyers. No custody fights.

So the choice is yours. You can work your ass off to try to get her to give you the time of day, which she might begrudgingly do. Or, you can make the call and cut your losses.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Is she on any meds, including birth control?

I'm with the others... Time to change horses. If nothing else, cancel the wedding entirely. Get one full year of happy sex life in before you consider putting marriage back on the table. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

ben86 said:


> Another reason i dont want to leave (apart from loving her) is that she has done alot for me and supports me in many ways. She moved house away from our friends and family so i could do my masters degree, that was 1.5years ago. Shes moving again shortly so i can start my new job. She does all this and i know i may not have done the same so easily for her, i also know it was hard for her to move to our current location away from family friends and leaving her job (she had just graduated and got a job, a dead end one but still one she liked).
> 
> Now she also works 10hrs shifts. Sometimes she doesnt have a day off, other weeks she gets two days off but its very unscheduled and i know its puting her under stress. Its even caused her to start sleep talking/walking at night.
> 
> Maybe these things are factors. Maybe im making excuses for her. I just wouldnt want to let something go that is fixable. If its an attraction thing or a compatability thing which i cant change then its over. But i've invested so much in her and love her very much so am deffinately prepared to invest the time/effort if it is an issue which can be resolved.


These are all reasons to not leave her. 

These aren't reasons to get married when you know there is a huge problem in your relationship that is very important to having a long lasting, happy marriage.

Go to counseling and fix the problem. Then get married.


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## SpinDaddy (Nov 12, 2012)

ben86 said:


> Another reason i dont want to leave (apart from loving her) is that she has done alot for me and supports me in many ways. She moved house away from our friends and family so i could do my masters degree, that was 1.5years ago. Shes moving again shortly so i can start my new job. She does all this and i know i may not have done the same so easily for her, i also know it was hard for her to move to our current location away from family friends and leaving her job (she had just graduated and got a job, a dead end one but still one she liked).
> 
> Now she also works 10hrs shifts. Sometimes she doesnt have a day off, other weeks she gets two days off but its very unscheduled and i know its puting her under stress. Its even caused her to start sleep talking/walking at night.
> 
> Maybe these things are factors. Maybe im making excuses for her. I just wouldnt want to let something go that is fixable. If its an attraction thing or a compatability thing which i cant change then its over. But i've invested so much in her and love her very much so am deffinately prepared to invest the time/effort if it is an issue which can be resolved.


Oh God, its like one of those “slasher” movies where everyone in the audience is saying no turn around, don’t go into that abandoned cabin in the out there in the woods at 11:00 pm on Halloween night – but they go ahead anyways.

Seriously, you can rationalize and justify it all you want but in the end it’s an abandoned cabin in the middle of nowhere and its Halloween night.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

ben86 said:


> I am going to try and get her to get some counselling, with myself. I also want to explore something an earlier poster mentioned, that she may have a experienced CSA before. This triggered a memory of a story she told me when we first met, still kids really (15 and 16yrs old) about something that happened to her sexually during junior school. I have no idea how childhood abusive would impact upon future sexual experience but if it does and if she has had something its worth working through together.


Bingo. Child sex abuse sounds like a match with her behavior. You have only known her, and you are young. I don't think you really see how abnormal her sex drive and sex behavior is. A young woman should be horny all the time, and when things do get heated up she should not be as dismissive and avoidant as she is.

Sex abuse affects her brain wiring in many ways. You learned about sex in a normal way. As a kid you learned about the mechanics of biology but it was an academic thing. When you reached puberty you started having feelings about girls. You experienced sexual arousal when you saw or heard things. But a girl who was abused before say 13 yrs old learns about sex in a totally twisted and abnormal way. Plus there is usually a lot of coercion involved by the abuser. And other adults may refuse to help her or may tell her she is at fault. 

The whole situation is very very _abnormal_. You cannot expect the grown woman to have a normal thought process about sexuality or even emotional intimacy.

It is not unusual for the trauma to be submerged through her teen years but then to cause her distress in her 20's or later. And what you describe is pretty textbook.

If she was abused she needs good solid therapy for it. I would not marry her until she has had therapy for a couple of years and appears to have made huge improvements. I say this as someone who has been married 30+ years to a CSA survivor who has had no therapy and who cut off the sex a few months before our wedding.

Normal methods will not "fix" her or your relationship if she is a CSA survivor. You cannot logically convince her to be "normal". You can't up your sex rank or game her a bit, because her brain is not wired to respond like other women.

The other part of this is that you need to be dialed in with her therapist to assist the process. Assuming you stay with her. Since sex is traumatic to her, you need to stop pressuring her for sex at least for a while. She is likely having PTSD attacks triggered by some of your actions or words. Look to see what makes her go stiff, cold, or turn away. Maybe everything does!

Not wanting to wear sexy clothing is a big red flag btw of CSA.

Even without broaching the subject of abuse directly with her you should set up some kind of safe word or signal if she is feeling uncomfortable. "Jelly Beans" or "wait" for example, or waving her hand or looking away from you. It sounds like her ability to engage in sex is extremely limited already, so this may be too advanced for now until she gets into therapy.

Good luck to both of you.


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

I truly feel sorry for you. Not for what your girlfriend/fiance has put you through; but, for what you have and are doing to yourself! Are you so fearful to be out in the world alone and starting a new relationship with someone else? Have you no self respect that you let your fiance control you by denying you sexual fulfillment?

Please work on your own self esteem. COme to grips with the notion that you deserve a relationship that meets you sexual needs. It is terrible to beg for sex but even worse to be made to beg for sex from someone who professes to love you. Dating and engagment are times to explore your compatability and relationship. You are not yet married and still have a chance at a fulfilling marriage. Alas, I am confident I will be reading of your sexless marriage in the years to come.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Did you try to have anal? j/k

As others have already tell you, if you are having this many issues now before marriage, it's only going to get worse for you. Marriage is very rewarding, but it is also a lot of hard work. Right now you have less distractions because you don't have kids underfoot to deal with. I think she resents you. It looks like she made sacrifices for you to do what you wanted with your life while she has been putting hers on hold. You implied that she has to work shifts, which is probably not for an job that she likes. You took her away from her friends and are again making her uproot to move somewhere else. I'd bet a large sum of money that her libido is fine - it's just she doesn't have it for you.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Thor, 
This is a huge mistake. 

You seem like a good person and I also believe you are suffering stokholm syndrome. 

When I read your stuff I often cringe. Your wife starved you and cheated on you and shows almost no remorse for you. You seem to believe that is csa, my observation is that women treat men they have steamrolled in a frighteningly cold and pragmatic fashion. This woman does not care what she is doing to him. That is separate from the csa. 

And when you mention having to pursue for 18 months to get one 'yes' my head spins. And then stopping pursuit made it ok for her to cheat. Dude you have been emotionally stomped on.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Mem I appreciate your candor. I agree to some extent. Plus CSA is not an excuse. But it does explain. I know a number of identical or very similar cases. I did allow it to happen due to my own issues and choices. It can be a perfect storm of dysfunctions. Things are and will be changing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Thor, 
There are two distinct pieces to this puzzle, and they are sequential:

You decide that you actually matter and what you want counts. Not the 'theory' but the day to day practice. This means you are comfortable saying 'I want a couple back massages a week, I like them and want you to show some good faith effort to prioritize me'. Note, this isn't about sex and has nothing to do with anything other than you being prioritized. 
If she doesn't have enough desire to please you for this type thing, you need to address that. 

Separate from that you find out what she likes and dislikes about sex and everything related to sex with you. Csa victims often dislike the combination of sex and emotional intimacy. Low intimacy sex is better for them. If you want romantic sexand she needs non romantic sex, you are likely going to have to compromise.


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