# Porn Addiction: A Convenient Scapegoat?



## moco82

There must have been a clever man somewhere who once decided to blame everything on "porn addiction". The diagnosis is the go-to response to every other post: "Your husband is addicted to porn. Get counseling". I wonder if the first viewers of the more risque Stone-Age cave art in Spain were diagnosed with this as well.


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## costa200

Gee... You're going to get so much stick i feel pity for you, but it will be entertaining for sure.


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## moco82

costa200, some light trolling to cast an issue in a more critical light  I just sampled 10-15 topics today and saw the "porn addiction" diagnosis used too readily. It's like the new ADD--a real condition, but misused in popular parlance.


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## costa200

moco82 said:


> costa200, some light trolling to cast an issue in a more critical light  I just sampled 10-15 topics today and saw the "porn addiction" diagnosis used too readily. It's like the new ADD--a real condition, but misused in popular parlance.


Oh don't tell me, i agree with you, on both of those "conditions". But you still are going to get the stick treatment.


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## Cherry

If the porn affects the marriage negatively, what do you call it? Even just a little bit of porn can affect a marriage. I am okay with porn personally and some spouses are not comfortable with any amount of porn. I don't think anyone here, or any of the regulars at least, label responsible porn viewers as addicts, as you are insinuating. Someone gets labeled a potential addict when their porn viewing is interferring with a healthy sex life with their spouse. If a spouse comes here for advice, and they explain that their H or W turned down their sexual advances but was later that night found parked in front of their computer viewing porn, it's a problem. 

It may not be that the spouse has an addiction per say, but if they prefer porn over their spouse, there is a problem and since no one has the offending spouses side of the situation (I.e. they're no longer attracted to their spouse, or they're actually using porn as a cover to an online affair, or whatever), possible porn addiction can be mentioned. 

Can you link to other threads which you think someone has been blindly diagnosed with porn addiction, without any red flags that it could very well be a problem?


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## Caribbean Man

moco82 said:


> There must have been a clever man somewhere who once decided to blame everything on "porn addiction". The diagnosis is the go-to response to every other post: "Your husband is addicted to porn. Get counseling". I wonder if the first viewers of the more risque Stone-Age cave art in Spain were diagnosed with this as well.





Interesting observation.
Before high speed internet , smartphones and DVD players on laptops, the term " porn addiction " was rarely used . 
But the average man always had his magazine " stash "or a " blue movie "hidden somewhere. So it was " out of sight and out of mind" for mothers and wives.
Now that its online,it has become the " sacrificial ram" of anything dysfunctional in a relationship.


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## Cherry

Caribbean Man said:


> Interesting observation.
> Before high speed internet , smartphones and DVD players on laptops, the term " porn addiction " was rarely used .
> But the average man always had his magazine " stash "or a " blue movie "hidden somewhere. So it was " out of sight and out of mind" for mothers and wives.
> Now that its online,it has become the " sacrificial ram" of anything dysfunctional in a relationship.


No, now that its online, there's more of an opportunity for interactive porn. You couldn't strike up a conversation with a magazine, but online if you're horny cause you just watched some porn flick, you can easily revert to chatting it up with "hot and horny, barely legal" participants. It's more dangerous online.


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## moco82

The future may hold access to even easier satisfaction. Like in that _Futurama_ episode where people could buy blank robots and download the appearance and persona of any celebrity onto them; against which a 50s-style educational film was showed to warn that the human race would end if everyone dates robots


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## wiigirl

moco82 said:


> costa200, some light trolling to cast an issue in a more critical light  I just sampled 10-15 topics today and saw the "porn addiction" diagnosis used too readily. It's like the new ADD--a real condition, but misused in popular parlance.












This....its a behaviorial issue and can be treated.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Caribbean Man

Cherry said:


> No, now that its online, there's more of an opportunity for interactive porn. You couldn't strike up a conversation with a magazine, but online if you're horny cause you just watched some porn flick, you can easily revert to chatting it up with "hot and horny, barely legal" participants. *It's more dangerous online*.




I agree with most of what you said. You have just stated facts. But to assume its more dangerous [ ? ] because its online is a too much for me. 
I don't see much difference between online, interactive porn and online interactive gaming like Call Of Duty Black Ops etc. Both can have the same devastating effect on a marriage.

But the question remains, why is porn classified as a
" clear & present danger " , when online gaming is not even on the radar?
Like the OP said, I think its simply making porn the scapegoat.
I wonder to myself if this done to please the masses of women who may feel threatened because men who consume porn, no longer have grovel at their knees for sexual satisfaction...

Don't get me wrong,
If a man feels that porn can totally fulfill his psychosexual needs then so be it. So too, if a woman decides that she does not need a man to fulfil her as a woman , then so be it.
But when in a relationship,no one is supposed to use sex to create an unfair advantage.


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## Cherry

This may be one of those same addict situations in that some people can look at porn responsibly and others take it too far. And perhaps what you are seeing in the threads are warnings that a spouses porn viewing could be a sign of a bigger problem and its advisable to seek counseling to determine if there is a bigger problem.

In my own situation, there were two big problems with sex and porn. First, I thought my H was a sex/porn addict because he was exhibiting some of the addict red flags. So we sought counseling (for other things too, but that was an issue as well). What the problem actually was... My H was missing me and missing other things, as a recovering addict. Our sex life was declining, and he turned to "attention" on the internet. As a crack addict, he likes raunchy sex, to put it mildly. He doesn't miss the drug per say, he misses the casual sex lifestyle that hard drugs allow him. What you see on Cops is not make believe. 

As addicts, this paved the way to one of our most devastating times in our marriage. We had infants, my health was stable at best, I had to work, we both had to. He had a little bit of down time at work... He got a new smart phone and discovered the internet. Attention started, porn viewing started, craving the real raunchy sex that only the internet could provide him.. cause gawd knows I can't compete. So then he discovered craigslist personals, the casual sex section. Our marriage was over. He was watching raunchy sex online and his wife was recovering from childbirth and finding time to communicate was far and few between working full time with twin infants. 

We are in the process of reconciling now. In our 2nd year. He does not view porn except with me, or the occasional masturbation session.. which is fine by me. But he doesn't do it online anymore... He doesn't trust himself. We have magazines, and a few DVDs. It's too destructive for him online. That's his choice of course, I can't stop him and at times I know he struggles to not do it... But we've got so much to keep him busy now that his mind barely slows down! Did I mention he's ADHD too? Untreated? That's a challenge with addicts, as many of them are.

ETA.. could this have been avoided with just magazines and DVDs? I think so, but only if we learned to communicate at some point and that point may have come earlier if he hadn't had some virtual land (the internet) to disappear into. It was pretty convenient to have a little chat online during your lunchbreak or view a little "live" one on one action, building that desire for a real life experience. He works in construction, so he seldom has the opportunity to interact in real life with women.


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## Caribbean Man

Well we are all on the same page,with the OP.
Sometimes the problem is deeper that the porn usage. You were able to spot the problem and deal with it in a mature, logical way.

The average wife/ mother usually freaks out. Suddenly the loving husband / son becomes a pervert because they discovered he actually looks at porn and masturbates.
Never mind that they also masturbate ,their stimuli is just different.


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## Cherry

Caribbean Man said:


> Well we are all on the same page,with the OP.
> Sometimes the problem is deeper that the porn usage. You were able to spot the problem and deal with it in a mature, logical way.
> 
> The average wife/ mother usually freaks out. Suddenly the loving husband / son becomes a pervert because they discovered he actually looks at porn and masturbates.
> Never mind that they also masturbate ,their stimuli is just different.


I still haven't seen a link to a thread the OP is referring to where anyone jumps to the conclusion that someones spouse is a porn addict simply because he views porn though. I think the typical response is that if its creating a problem in the marriage, its worth ruling out. But there are those spouses that think viewing any porn is bad for whatever reason, especially online. Which would be a challenge if the offending spouse is a casual viewer and can turn off the monitor after viewing a little porn. Which poses the question, who is correct? And can there be a compromise.. its obviously creating a conflict, so what's the correct way to resolve it?

ETA.. I'm a recovering alcoholic.. my H doesn't drink like me, he can have a few beers occasionally. If beer is in the house, ill drink it. So out of respect for my recovery from alcohol, he hasn't had a drop to drink for as long as Ive been sober. If its gonna create conflict, or possibly contribute to a relapse for me.. its best to avoid it altogether my H believes.


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## Caribbean Man

Well Chery,
We are both saying the same thing! And I'm glad you added that last paragraph regarding your experience with Alcohol.
My experience with porn is this.
From my teenage years I used magazines as stimulus during masturbation. It was difficult for me to climax if I didn't have that visual. Then I stared having real sex with women around 17. My dependence on porn from thence was like a roller coaster ride. If I was having sex regularly,I realized I didn't really need it. But all of my relationships were basically short term.
I got married and the porn use went to zero . But problems started in my marriage and I went back to the porn.
I figured out in my mind that my porn use was a mental crutch I used to escape dealing with problems in real life, [ I never had a problem with Alcohol or Drugs] just like any average addict.
I learned to deal with my problems differently and the porn use diminished again.
Now I very rarely view it, and it does not take the place of intimacy between my wife and I. But there were some things she needed to understand.


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## Lon

I don't think porn is a convenient scapegoat, I think it is an epidemic, and there is certainly nothing convenient about it as an excuse to failing marriages - what man would ever admit he has that weakness (well until he gets caught and his problem exposed). Men by and large aren't using the internet to "chat up" porn stars, its just that there is so much to look at for free. Before the internet you had to divert money to obtain it, now you just click a mouse. I also don't think there is anything wrong with porn, but I do believe that in most instances it can be detrimental to a man's real life sex life. Most men think they can compartmentalize it, maybe some can do it better than others, but I think there is always some sort of leakage between our mental containers. I also think just plain internet addiction is just as detrimental.


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## Hope1964

Caribbean Man said:


> Well Chery,
> We are both saying the same thing! And I'm glad you added that last paragraph regarding your experience with Alcohol.
> My experience with porn is this.
> From my teenage years I used magazines as stimulus during masturbation. It was difficult for me to climax if I didn't have that visual. Then I stared having real sex with women around 17. My dependence on porn from thence was like a roller coaster ride. If I was having sex regularly,I realized I didn't really need it. But all of my relationships were basically short term.
> I got married and the porn use went to zero . But problems started in my marriage and I went back to the porn.
> I figured out in my mind that my porn use was a mental crutch I used to escape dealing with problems in real life, [ I never had a problem with Alcohol or Drugs] just like any average addict.
> I learned to deal with my problems differently and the porn use diminished again.
> Now I very rarely view it, and it does not take the place of intimacy between my wife and I. But there were some things she needed to understand.


This is similar to my husbands use of sex in different forms, including porn usage, over the years. He developed a pattern of using porn/sex as a crutch whenever things weren't going well in his life.

I also agree that internet porn is on a different level than magazines and DVD's. It's not only free, but also interactive, and an easy gateway to everything else you can do on the internet. Once you start spending money on internet porn/sex sites you've moved past the 'harmless' stuff.

And I also agree that 'porn addiction' is thrown around by people (read: wives) who know nothing about it and just want to throw something at their husbands because they believe that ALL porn is taboo.


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## costa200

I admit i'm not that big on the porn stuff, but what kind of interactivity are we talking about here? You mean those "live" chats with women or something?


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## Hope1964

costa200 said:


> I admit i'm not that big on the porn stuff, but what kind of interactivity are we talking about here? You mean those "live" chats with women or something?


That, and more. My husband started by just looking at porn, then he decided one day to just 'see what it was like' so he clicked on a chat link and got into that. The free stuff at first but then the paid stuff where it gets raunchier. Then of course he had to check out the webcam sites, then he decided to check out Adult Friend Finder and Sexsearch 'just to see what they were like' and ended up paying for memberships on there. Which led to communication with other women, they convinced him to get a cell phone so they could sext, they convinced him they were in our city and for him to go meet them (he actually got scammed out of thousands of dollars this way - the women weren't even real)

All of this was linked right from the free porn sites.


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## Cherry

Hope1964 said:


> That, and more. My husband started by just looking at porn, then he decided one day to just 'see what it was like' so he clicked on a chat link and got into that. The free stuff at first but then the paid stuff where it gets raunchier. Then of course he had to check out the webcam sites, then he decided to check out Adult Friend Finder and Sexsearch 'just to see what they were like' and ended up paying for memberships on there. Which led to communication with other women, they convinced him to get a cell phone so they could sext, they convinced him they were in our city and for him to go meet them (he actually got scammed out of thousands of dollars this way - the women weren't even real)
> 
> All of this was linked right from the free porn sites.


Yep. Very similar deal for us.


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## Chris Taylor

As an alcoholic, I get perturbed when people throw the word "addiction" around.

Addiction is a condition that results when a person ingests a substance (alcohol, cocaine, nicotine) or engages in an activity (gambling) that can be pleasurable but the continued use of which becomes compulsive and interferes with ordinary life responsibilities, such as work or relationships, even health (from Psychology Today).

If it isn't interfering with your relationship, it isn't an addiction even if it "interferes because you don't like your husband viewing porn. If that were the case going antiquing would be an addiction because I don't like my wife doing that.

Drinking whiskey all day and almost losing your job... now THAT'S an addiction.


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## COGypsy

Hope1964 said:


> And I also agree that 'porn addiction' is thrown around by people (read: wives) who know nothing about it and just want to throw something at their husbands because they believe that ALL porn is taboo.


I agree with you, but I also think it's just another part of people's strong desire to explain behavior they disagree with. It seems in so many cases that if there is a diagnosis of some sort, then it justifies tolerating the behavior. It's all over on TAM-- He must have bipolar, she must have BPD, oh, clearly it's porn addiction. 

We all want to explain the bad things in our lives and relationships and having a "sickness" seems to be a more comfortable and handy way to accomplish that.


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## moco82

So what are victims of Nigerian email scammers addicted to?


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## Hope1964

COGypsy said:


> I agree with you, but I also think it's just another part of people's strong desire to explain behavior they disagree with. It seems in so many cases that if there is a diagnosis of some sort, then it justifies tolerating the behavior. It's all over on TAM-- He must have bipolar, she must have BPD, oh, clearly it's porn addiction.
> 
> We all want to explain the bad things in our lives and relationships and having a "sickness" seems to be a more comfortable and handy way to accomplish that.


Yes, I agree. Diagnosing an addiction does not give the addict an excuse to misbehave, even though many think it does. If my husband was using his sex addiction as an excuse to continue to cheat, he'd be out on his rear end VERY fast. Recovering addicts don't do that. It's also important to recognize that saying someone has an addiction isn't the end of it. There's a reason they have that addiction, and THAT needs to be addressed too.


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## Lon

Chris Taylor said:


> As an alcoholic, I get perturbed when people throw the word "addiction" around.
> 
> Addiction is a condition that results when a person ingests a substance (alcohol, cocaine, nicotine) or engages in an activity (gambling) that can be pleasurable but the continued use of which becomes compulsive and interferes with ordinary life responsibilities, such as work or relationships, even health (from Psychology Today).
> 
> If it isn't interfering with your relationship, it isn't an addiction even if it "interferes because you don't like your husband viewing porn. If that were the case going antiquing would be an addiction because I don't like my wife doing that.
> 
> Drinking whiskey all day and almost losing your job... now THAT'S an addiction.


Thinking of porn and taking every chance to view it you can to the point you almost lose your job/marriage/health is also an addiction. Yes in many cases it is that severe. And also as a recovering alcoholic you are painfully aware of how normalized excessive use can be in society.

For myself, I don't think I have ever been far down that path but I could see how I easily could have, I think the term obsession is more apropos because of the compulsive desire I had about it.


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## COGypsy

Hope1964 said:


> Yes, I agree. Diagnosing an addiction does not give the addict an excuse to misbehave, even though many think it does. If my husband was using his sex addiction as an excuse to continue to cheat, he'd be out on his rear end VERY fast. Recovering addicts don't do that. It's also important to recognize that saying someone has an addiction isn't the end of it. There's a reason they have that addiction, and THAT needs to be addressed too.


:iagree:

Yep. In so many situations around here, I've seen people talk like it's all okay to put up with because you know....they're SICK. It's one thing to stick it out when the other person is trying to get better (recover/stabilize, whatever). It's another to put up with it because there's a label.

My favorite example...I have bipolar disorder and tend to overspend when I'm hypomanic. I haven't ever had a credit card company say "oh never mind" when the bill is due, just because I have that diagnosis to "excuse" it. I'm still accountable for what I did when I was cycling and I have to get myself stabilized and on track again.


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## moco82

Hope1964 said:


> Which led to communication with other women, they convinced him to get a cell phone so they could sext, they convinced him they were in our city and for him to go meet them (he actually got scammed out of thousands of dollars this way - the women weren't even real).


"If it's too good to be true, it probably is" applies to online classifieds just as much as it does to newspaper classifieds.


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## Hope1964

moco82 said:


> "If it's too good to be true, it probably is" applies to online classifieds just as much as it does to newspaper classifieds.


Yeah, you don't have to tell ME!!!

He really was in an altered state of consciousness while he was doing all that crap. In every other aspect of his life, he's intelligent and savvy and would never fall for a scam like that. And he is chincy - like, VERY chincy. He accounts for EVERY CENT of his money and does not ever spend it until he's considered the expense from every angle. The fact he spent so much money on NOTHING just blows me away, even now.


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## Caribbean Man

Hope1964 said:


> That, and more. My husband started by just looking at porn, then he decided one day to just 'see what it was like' so he clicked on a chat link and got into that. The free stuff at first but then the paid stuff where it gets raunchier. * Then of course he had to check out the webcam sites, then he decided to check out Adult Friend Finder and Sexsearch 'just to see what they were like' and ended up paying for memberships on there. Which led to communication with other women, they convinced him to get a cell phone so they could sext, they convinced him they were in our city and for him to go meet them (he actually got scammed out of thousands of dollars this way - the women weren't even real*)
> 
> All of this was linked right from the free porn sites.




And that is where my experience parted ways with others.
I liked porn,but I loved my money more. I have never joined any adult website. So those women behind the webcam held no real allure for me. Real sex was always at my fingertips for free . So I figured to myself,why pay for something you can get for free?
Based on that I figured out I really didn't need it to feel good about myself.


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## costa200

Hope1964 said:


> That, and more. My husband started by just looking at porn, then he decided one day to just 'see what it was like' so he clicked on a chat link and got into that. The free stuff at first but then the paid stuff where it gets raunchier. Then of course he had to check out the webcam sites, then he decided to check out Adult Friend Finder and Sexsearch 'just to see what they were like' and ended up paying for memberships on there. Which led to communication with other women, they convinced him to get a cell phone so they could sext, they convinced him they were in our city and for him to go meet them (he actually got scammed out of thousands of dollars this way - the women weren't even real)
> 
> All of this was linked right from the free porn sites.


Gee, and to think i occasionally just look at some boobs... Apparently i'm missing out on all those scams!


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## Vizion

moco82 said:


> The future may hold access to even easier satisfaction. Like in that _Futurama_ episode where people could buy blank robots and download the appearance and persona of any celebrity onto them; against which a 50s-style educational film was showed to warn that the human race would end if everyone dates robots


i remember seing that along time ago and thinking "wow, now that'll be the day".

as for online porn addiction and the internet in general............. I think we'd be better off without it


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## anonim

moco82 said:


> There must have been a clever man somewhere who once decided to blame everything on "porn addiction". The diagnosis is the go-to response to every other post: "Your husband is addicted to porn. Get counseling". I wonder if the first viewers of the more risque Stone-Age cave art in Spain were diagnosed with this as well.


I kind of agree. There are clear definitions of what addictions are; here at TAM its generally, 'If your husband/SO/BF looks at porn, he's a porn addict.' although i notice these voices are silent when other women come forward to say they they also look at porn...

im curious to those who zealously label others as addicts; have you ever used/gotten off to porn before?

Heres where i stand on porn usage;

1) If you can drop it when needed

2) if you dont have a consuming desire to use it

3) if its not interfering with other areas of your sexual function (i.e. its not making you get ED or PE)

4) if its not interfering with other areas of your life (i.e. you dont prefer porn over a willing partner, regardless of the work you gotta put in to get some, you dont spend all of/too much of your time fapping, to porn )

5) you dont feel the need to lie about it or hide that you use it

its probably not an addiction/compulsion.


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## anonim

moco82 said:


> So what are victims of Nigerian email scammers addicted to?


easy money.


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## *LittleDeer*

Lon said:


> I don't think porn is a convenient scapegoat, I think it is an epidemic, and there is certainly nothing convenient about it as an excuse to failing marriages - what man would ever admit he has that weakness (well until he gets caught and his problem exposed). Men by and large aren't using the internet to "chat up" porn stars, its just that there is so much to look at for free. Before the internet you had to divert money to obtain it, now you just click a mouse. I also don't think there is anything wrong with porn, but I do believe that in most instances it can be detrimental to a man's real life sex life. Most men think they can compartmentalize it, maybe some can do it better than others, but I think there is always some sort of leakage between our mental containers. I also think just plain internet addiction is just as detrimental.


I agree, 
and if porn isn't a problem why are there so many threads about it. It's easier to dismiss the pain of others to ensure your agenda I suspect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anonim

*LittleDeer* said:


> I agree,
> and if porn isn't a problem why are there so many threads about it. It's easier to dismiss the pain of others to ensure your agenda I suspect.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


because people will try to make other people dislike what they dislike.


Very true. Not sure if you're speaking on behalf of or against porn...


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## Vizion

addiction is not an addiction until your addicted. problem is the point at which that happens is almost always in hindsight


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## Cherry

anonim said:


> I kind of agree. There are clear definitions of what addictions are; here at TAM its generally, 'If your husband/SO/BF looks at porn, he's a porn addict.' although i notice these voices are silent when other women come forward to say they they also look at porn...


That happens with a lot of subjects though. That's the glory of advise/thoughts from a melting pot. Usually the post is asked by a newbie, if they stick around to answer some more questions about what's really going on... It becomes more clear that a spouse isn't just looking at porn. On the flip side, a fly by post is done, and the OP never comes back... Sometimes in those cases an insuing internal TAM battle begins because everyone is drawing their own conclusions. 

I have yet to see a post where a spouse is complaining that their spouse is viewing porn and everything is super fantastic in their marriage, are they an addict? There's usually a problem somewhere in the marriage and the OP is upset about the porn use specifically... Thus creating a conflict. Is the offending spouse an addict? I would like to think the regulars here at least know better than to label them an addict right out of the gate..

ETA... I really thought at one point that my H was a sex addict because he would come onto me! Really, I did. I asked TAM what is wrong with him?? I was put in my place and told that my H loves me and desires me, he isn't addicted to sex because he can't keep his hands of me.. now I embrace his advances and am flattered. But he has quit grabbing my boobs in passing, that was annoying! So I would like to think that a wife or H who comes here posing a question about whether her H is a porn addict would get more sound advice and thoughts than a general your spouse is an addict.


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## moco82

anonim said:


> easy money.


So victims of scammers posing as beautiful women on personals (whether like AdultFriendFinder, *************, or like the numerous mail-order-bride sites) are looking for easy sex. If it's too good to be true, it is. If no one in real life is handing you money for doing next to nothing, and gorgeous women in real life don't look your way, you won't get lucky online in either pursuit.


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## moco82

Cherry worded it best. Thank you!


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## costa200

If porn viewing was a problem in itself and not a symptom of something else more serious there would be no existing marriages today. It's like you having a headache and keep taking aspirin without getting to the doctor and find out exactly what is going on. Treating the symptom is not a solution. 

Plus there is a huge double standard regarding erotic material. Everything men like gets demonized while stuff used for erotic gratification by women is labeled as "harmless". 

This, i suspect, has to do with the desire of some women to sexually control their men. He gets sex when he behaves, he gets rewarded when he does good etc... Apparently porn gets in the way of that. It is highly threatening for this specific type of women. 

To fully disclose the man side of this issue. If a guy isn't getting any and isn't cheating what is he supposed to do? There is a very real biological imperative to renovate sperm. If he doesn't do it somehow he may even shorten his lifespan (check data on prostate cancer).

But if the situation is that the woman is willing and he still uses porn, then it's a different beast. And the couple really need to get hands on what the problem really is. Sexual performance? Unfulfilled fantasies? Some sort of sexual deviancy? Lack of physical attractions?


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## Caribbean Man

costa200 said:


> If porn viewing was a problem in itself and not a symptom of something else more serious there would be no existing marriages today. It's like you having a headache and keep taking aspirin without getting to the doctor and find out exactly what is going on. Treating the symptom is not a solution.
> 
> Plus there is a huge double standard regarding erotic material. Everything men like gets demonized while stuff used for erotic gratification by women is labeled as "harmless".
> 
> *This, i suspect, has to do with the desire of some women to sexually control their men. He gets sex when he behaves, he gets rewarded when he does good etc... Apparently porn gets in the way of that. It is highly threatening for this specific type of women. *
> 
> To fully disclose the man side of this issue. If a guy isn't getting any and isn't cheating what is he supposed to do? There is a very real biological imperative to renovate sperm. If he doesn't do it somehow he may even shorten his lifespan (check data on prostate cancer).
> 
> But if the situation is that the woman is willing and he still uses porn, then it's a different beast. And the couple really need to get hands on what the problem really is. Sexual performance? Unfulfilled fantasies? Some sort of sexual deviancy? Lack of physical attractions?



:iagree::iagree::iagree:

My thoughts exactly!
Just like i said in my first post.
Porn is now a very convenient tool,and there exist tremendous double standards with respect to it.
A lot of females hate porn with a passion,but they jealously guard their romance novels, and " eye candy" hot shot movie stars.
Both porn and romance novels are normal types of human coping/ defense mechanisms called sublimation.
Both can be taken to the extreme,and will result in an altered state of mind.
A female who is addicted to these type of romance story usually has a hard time adjusting to the reality of her relationship. So she daydreams of being loved, and being made love to by someone just like the hero in the romance novel.
A man who is addicted to porn is pretty much the same.He is seeking a level of sexual gratification his wife / partner cannot provide,given the state of their relationship. So the actors in the movie are doing what he daydreams about. Hence the great success of interactive [ webcam] porn shows.


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## *LittleDeer*

costa200 said:


> If porn viewing was a problem in itself and not a symptom of something else more serious there would be no existing marriages today. It's like you having a headache and keep taking aspirin without getting to the doctor and find out exactly what is going on. Treating the symptom is not a solution.
> 
> Plus there is a huge double standard regarding erotic material. Everything men like gets demonized while stuff used for erotic gratification by women is labeled as "harmless".
> 
> This, i suspect, has to do with the desire of some women to sexually control their men. He gets sex when he behaves, he gets rewarded when he does good etc... Apparently porn gets in the way of that. It is highly threatening for this specific type of women.
> 
> To fully disclose the man side of this issue. If a guy isn't getting any and isn't cheating what is he supposed to do? There is a very real biological imperative to renovate sperm. If he doesn't do it somehow he may even shorten his lifespan (check data on prostate cancer).
> 
> But if the situation is that the woman is willing and he still uses porn, then it's a different beast. And the couple really need to get hands on what the problem really is. Sexual performance? Unfulfilled fantasies? Some sort of sexual deviancy? Lack of physical attractions?


I disagree, I think any viewing of porn is a problem, it's looking for sexual gratification outside the marriage, and although i don't think written erotica is the same , as the brain responds differently, and it isn't as addictive, I also believe it can be a problem and shouldn't be used.

Porn is a problem for many women, because it is the use of other real live people to get your rocks off rather then focusing your sexual energies where they should be.

Porn changes the way we view sex and changes the neural pathways in the brain, often making people dissatisfied with real sex. 

It's never a good thing to focus on another person sexually IMO.

People can justify it however they want, but it is a massive problem and one of the top marital problems being bought forward to marriage counselours today. the choice of some men to view porn does harm many marriages.

Also many men have masturbated with their imaginations and no porn. However I believe that sex is very important and spouses should not be turned away. That is if they are meeting the other spouses needs.


----------



## costa200

> I disagree, I think any viewing of porn is a problem, it's looking for sexual gratification outside the marriage,


I'll oppose that their hand is still part of the marriage.



> Porn is a problem for many women, because it is the use of other real live people to get your rocks off rather then focusing your sexual energies where they should be.


You're going from the principle that men that watch porn are worse in the bedroom with their wifes. If that is so, then we all suck. 

And, about the "real" people. Japanese use those comics. Is that ok then?



> Porn changes the way we view sex and changes the neural pathways in the brain, often making people dissatisfied with real sex.


Specially when the prudish side of the marriage doesn't have a clue of what to do in the bedroom. The real threat comes from the knowledge that there are people out there that do. Basically the same problem also happens when previous to the marriage there were sexual contacts that could have been better than the marital sex. 

It's not so much that men get disappointed with real sex as they are disappointed with bad sex once they are made aware that there are other things out there. And that's what really gets an insecure woman.



> It's never a good thing to focus on another person sexually IMO.


I would find very weird to find a male writing that. One of the characteristics of porn is exactly that there is zero focus. Just like feminist sites are always telling us, women are objectified. They have, in those videos and pictures, zero personality. They embody stereotypes.

Plus men don't focus on a particular porn actress. Part of the appeal of porn is variety. Most men can't pinpoint more than a handful of porn actresses names (mainly ones that got so famous even women know about them for some reason).

This is a fundamental difference of boys and girls even. The girls will literally fill a bedroom with a few moviestars (often just one). Boys will roam though dozens of different pictures a day. 



> People can justify it however they want, but it is a massive problem and one of the top marital problems being bought forward to marriage counselours today.


And will continue so. It's like asking men to stop thinking about sex. Get this, over 90% of men out there look at one or the other form of porn. If you think your guy doesn't it is very likely you are wrong. Porn itself isn't the problem or we would all be in MC. 

How many of those women that complain about porn are themselves incapable in the bedroom? Ain't that a much bigger issue?



> Also many men have masturbated with their imaginations and no porn.


Oh... Right... And what do you think they are using in their minds? Not porn actresses, sure... I'll tell you. They are using the mental picture of someone they personally know. Your hot neighbor, your babysitter, your sister, his co-worker, the hot waitress in the pub he goes too. 

Sincerely, if any of you ladies surprise your hubby beating one off alone, you better hope he is looking at some vanilla porn. The alternative is much much more dangerous for your marriage.


----------



## Cherry

costa200 said:


> I'll oppose that their hand is still part of the marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> You're going from the principle that men that watch porn are worse in the bedroom with their wifes. If that is so, then we all suck.
> 
> And, about the "real" people. Japanese use those comics. Is that ok then?
> 
> 
> 
> Specially when the prudish side of the marriage doesn't have a clue of what to do in the bedroom. The real threat comes from the knowledge that there are people out there that do. Basically the same problem also happens when previous to the marriage there were sexual contacts that could have been better than the marital sex.
> 
> It's not so much that men get disappointed with real sex as they are disappointed with bad sex once they are made aware that there are other things out there. And that's what really gets an insecure woman.
> 
> 
> 
> I would find very weird to find a male writing that. One of the characteristics of porn is exactly that there is zero focus. Just like feminist sites are always telling us, women are objectified. They have, in those videos and pictures, zero personality. They embody stereotypes.
> 
> Plus men don't focus on a particular porn actress. Part of the appeal of porn is variety. Most men can't pinpoint more than a handful of porn actresses names (mainly ones that got so famous even women know about them for some reason).
> 
> This is a fundamental difference of boys and girls even. The girls will literally fill a bedroom with a few moviestars (often just one). Boys will roam though dozens of different pictures a day.
> 
> 
> 
> And will continue so. It's like asking men to stop thinking about sex. Get this, over 90% of men out there look at one or the other form of porn. If you think your guy doesn't it is very likely you are wrong. Porn itself isn't the problem or we would all be in MC.
> 
> How many of those women that complain about porn are themselves incapable in the bedroom? Ain't that a much bigger issue?
> 
> 
> 
> Oh... Right... And what do you think they are using in their minds? Not porn actresses, sure... I'll tell you. They are using the mental picture of someone they personally know. Your hot neighbor, your babysitter, your sister, his co-worker, the hot waitress in the pub he goes too.
> 
> Sincerely, if any of you ladies surprise your hubby beating one off alone, you better hope he is looking at some vanilla porn. The alternative is much much more dangerous for your marriage.


Pretty shallow of you. Most porn is an inaccurate depiction of sex, period. It's gross and unrealistic. I'll have more later, but your post is a good indication how harmful porn can be... DoD you know a lot of porn stars are doped up on drugs????? They have to be just to do half of the gross sh!t they do.... IT IS NOT REAL... and H's shouldn't expect porn sex from their wives because a doped up wh0re does it on a movie.

ETA... I use to have anal sex with my H. I would have to get pretty buzzed to do that... My H misses anal sex, but my H appreciates my sobriety more.


----------



## Cherry

As a mother and a woman, and a wife who values intimacy, porn is degrading. Did you ever stop to think that maybe a woman who doesn't like porn and doesn't like their spouse viewing it does so for more than just the act of sex??? I personally, and especially now that I am sober, get repulsed by it if I start thinking about the kind of lives the women must have had to lead them to that life. Much of my life, I was a flat out wh0re, willing to fvck anything and everything... Why? Because I was a drunk with unresolved self-esteem issues. Do you think porn stars went to college for acting and graduated at the top of their class, do you think they grew up aspiring to be a porn star? Sex itself is so exploited out there...

I'll be honest, I didn't know the value of sex when I married my H. I grew up with it as, I don't even know, I just didn't value what intimacy meant. I don't think my H did either... He lived the drug life (and using sex to get drugs) while I lived the attention starved alcoholic, sex was the easist way to get that attention I was craving, BTW. 

So yeah, its a moral thing... And not because of God. That porn star has a story, she didn't become a wh0re because that was her dream. And I have a hard time financially and morally supporting the continued exploitation of women.

ETA.. soft core mags are different IMO... A woman's body should be admired for the work of art that it is. Same with a man's body. And sex on screen can even be a work of art.


----------



## costa200

> Pretty shallow of you.


I think you'll find that there isn't much of shallow in my ideas. If you disagree point where i'm wrong. Ad hominem attacks tend to frustrate me because it makes me lose respect for people.



> Most porn is an inaccurate depiction of sex, period.


Yes, it's fantasy. Just like romantic novels do inaccurate depiction of relationships. That never stopped no woman of comparing her BF or Husband to popular romantic heroes (who don't have to work, never seem to die although they do stupid stuff for women they have just met, and seem to live just to please their woman of choice).



> It's gross and unrealistic.


Judgmental and subjective. It's all fantasy. If a man thinks what is going on is real he has bigger issues than porn itself. He is mentally incapable. 



> 'll have more later, but your post is a good indication how harmful porn can be...


Really? Because i don't demonize it and understand why some guy go heavy into it there is some harm being done?



> DoD you know a lot of porn stars are doped up on drugs?????


did you know a lot of mainstream starts are doped up on drugs too? Isn't this a wild tangent to this discussion?



> They have to be just to do half of the gross sh!t they do.... IT IS NOT REAL... and H's shouldn't expect porn sex from their wives because a doped up wh0re does it on a movie.


But he should expect to fill her bedroom full of roses because his wife just saw something like that in some cheesy movie? But we do get somewhere here. The issue is that the idea that the husband may be comparing his wife with those pornstars is the real "danger". That's what scares some women. 

Apparently the notion that their men already know that they are not pornstars (most men would never want to be in a relationship with a pornstar) is a hard one to get. 



> ETA... I use to have anal sex with my H. I would have to get pretty buzzed to do that... My H misses anal sex, but my H appreciates my sobriety more.


That's just sad... But it really isn't related to this.



> As a mother and a woman, and a wife who values intimacy, porn is degrading.


Fair enough, your opinion, everyone is entitled to one. 



> Did you ever stop to think that maybe a woman who doesn't like porn and doesn't like their spouse viewing it does so for more than just the act of sex??? I personally, and especially now that I am sober, get repulsed by it if I start thinking about the kind of lives the women must have had to lead them to that life. Much of my life, I was a flat out wh0re, willing to fvck anything and everything... Why? Because I was a drunk with unresolved self-esteem issues. Do you think porn stars went to college for acting and graduated at the top of their class, do you think they grew up aspiring to be a porn star? Sex itself is so exploited out there...


A lot of people end up doing stuff that was not their dream career. Yet whenever there is a porn casting your have literally thousands of applicants. Apparently it pays very well and those people don't have the moral barriers most people have. 

Now, for people on the outside, like you and me, we can wonder why they do what they do. That accusation of exploitation is often thrown around. And i'm pretty sure there are exploitation on that business. However, how does it differ from all other forms of economical exploitation? What's the percentage of people who go to work happily and aren't doing it for the money. 

The difference between people in the porn industry and others is that they deal with a taboo. And that is sex and all tangent businesses. 

That labeling of people in the porn industry as damaged and/or addicted to drugs can be right or wrong depending on the case. Fact remains that whenever a porn actress/actor is interviewed that usually doesn't come up. Nobody is holding a gun to their head. They do what they do because that's the job where they can get the fastest money without qualifications and minimal effort. 

If anyone is getting forced to work by force or whatever that's a police matter. That goes for whatever other capitalist enterprise too. 



> That porn star has a story, she didn't become a wh0re because that was her dream. And I have a hard time financially and morally supporting the continued exploitation of women.


And men, don't forget men too...



> ETA.. soft core mags are different IMO... A woman's body should be admired for the work of art that it is. Same with a man's body. And sex on screen can even be a work of art.


So a tasteful wh*re is not a wh*re? I really fail to grasp that notion.


----------



## Cherry

You're assuming I read women fantasy novels, and you're assuming I watch chick flicks. Neither of which I do. And I don't know another woman who reads the novels I keep hearing people compare porn to. Not sure what you're talking about.. should I venture into a bookstore?


----------



## moco82

Cherry, the reality for most men is that porn is an innocuous, even mundane part of life, and anyone else dictating whether or not they should view it at all is almost like someone else dictating whether or not to drink soda. Second, maybe I have puritanical tastes in porn, but I've never watched anything that at least a few real partners weren't willing to do as well. There is surely some outlandish stuff in the more specialized kinds of porn, but I perceive it as sort of the "Jackass" franchise vs. film in general.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

> The last time I saw Gail Dines speak, at a conference in Boston, she moved the audience to tears with her description of the problems caused by pornography, and provoked laughter with her sharp observations about pornographers themselves. Activists in the audience were newly inspired, and men at the event – many of whom had never viewed pornography as a problem before – queued up afterwards to pledge their support. The scene highlighted Dines's explosive charisma and the fact that, since the death of Andrea Dworkin, she has risen to that most difficult and interesting of public roles: the world's leading anti-pornography campaigner.
> 
> Dines is also a highly regarded academic and her new book, Pornland: How Porn Has Hijacked Our Sexuality, has just come out in the US, and is available online here. She wrote it primarily to educate people about what pornography today is really like, she says, and to banish any notion of it as benign titillation. "We are now bringing up a generation of boys on cruel, violent porn," she says, "and given what we know about how images affect people, this is going to have a profound influence on their sexuality, behaviour and attitudes towards women."
> 
> The book documents the recent history of porn, including the technological shifts that have made it accessible on mobile phones, videogames and laptops. According to Dines's research the prevalence of porn means that men are becoming desensitised to it, and are therefore seeking out ever harsher, more violent and degrading images. Even the porn industry is shocked by how much violence the fans want, she says; at the industry conferences that Dines attends, porn makers have increasingly been discussing the trend for more extreme practices. And the audience is getting younger. Market research conducted by internet providers found that the average age a boy first sees porn today is 11; a study from the University of Alberta found that one third of 13-year-old boys admitted viewing porn; and a survey published by Psychologies magazine in the UK last month found that a third of 14- to 16-year-olds had first seen sexual images online when they were 10 or younger – 81% of those polled looked at porn online at home, while 63% could easily access it on their mobile phones.
> 
> "I have found that the earlier men use porn," says Dines, "the more likely they are to have trouble developing close, intimate relationships with real women. Some of these men prefer porn to sex with an actual human being. They are bewildered, even angry, when real women don't want or enjoy porn sex."
> 
> Porn culture doesn't only affect men. It also changes "the way women and girls think about their bodies, their sexuality and their relationships," says Dines. "Every group that has fought for liberation understands that media images are part and parcel of the systematic dehumanisation of an oppressed group . . . The more porn images filter into mainstream culture, the more girls and women are stripped of full human status and reduced to sex objects. This has a terrible effect on girls' sexual identity because it robs them of their own sexual desire."
> 
> Images have now become so extreme that acts that were almost non-existent a decade ago have become commonplace. From studying thousands of porn films and images Dines found that the most popular acts depicted in internet porn include vaginal, oral and anal penetration by three or more men at the same time; double anal; double vaginal; a female gagging from having a penis thrust into her throat; and ejaculation in a woman's face, eyes and mouth.
> 
> "To think that so many men hate women to the degree that they can get aroused by such vile images is quite profound," says Dines. "Pornography is the perfect propaganda piece for patriarchy. In nothing else is their hatred of us quite as clear."
> 
> Born in Manchester, Dines moved to Israel in 1980, aged 22, and soon became involved in the women's movement. An event organised by the feminist consciousness-raising group Women against Pornography in Haifa – in which pornography was shown – changed her life forever. "I was astounded that men could either make such a thing or want to look at it," she says. From then on, she knew she had to campaign about the issue.
> 
> There were two images from Hustler magazine that she found especially shocking: a cartoon of a construction worker drilling a jackhammer into a woman's vagina, and one depicting a woman being fed through a meat grinder. "I was newly married and told my husband that night how appalled I was, which he fully understood," she says. "If he had said I was a prude I don't think I could have stayed with him."
> 
> The couple moved to the US in 1986, and Dines has taught at Wheelock College, Boston ever since, where she is professor of sociology and women's studies and chair of the American studies department. She is something of a lone voice in academia. Aside from what she says are "a handful" of colleagues across the US, most contemporary scholars are positive about pornography, and Dines thinks this is due to both a fear of being considered in alliance with the religious right and the view that pornography represents and champions sexual liberation.
> 
> "Many on the liberal left adopt a view that says pornographers are not businessmen but are simply there to unleash our sexuality from state-imposed constraints," she says. This view was reflected in the film The People vs Larry Flynt, where the billionaire pornographer of the film's title – the head of the Hustler empire – was portrayed as a man simply fighting for freedom of speech. Dines disputes these ideas. "Trust me," she says, "I have interviewed hundreds of pornographers and the only thing that gets them excited is profit."
> 
> As a result of her research, Dines believes that pornography is driving men to commit particular acts of violence towards women. "I am not saying that a man reads porn and goes out to rape," she says, "but what I do know is that porn gives permission to its consumers to treat women as they are treated in porn." In a recent study, 80% of men said that the one sex act they would most like to perform is to ejaculate on a woman's face; in 2007, a comment stream on the website Jezebel.com included a number of women who said that, on a first date, they had, to their surprise, experienced their sexual partner ejaculating on their faces without asking.
> 
> Sexual assault centres in US colleges have said that more women are reporting anal rape, which Dines attributes directly to the normalisation of such practices in pornography. "The more porn sexualises violence against women, the more it normalises and legitimises sexually abusive behaviour. Men learn about sex from porn, and in porn nothing is too painful or degrading for women." Dines also says that what she calls "childified porn" has significantly increased in popularity in recent years, with almost 14m internet searches for "teen sex" in 2006, an increase of more than 60% since 2004. There are legal sites that feature hardcore images of extremely young-looking women being penetrated by older men, with disclaimers stating all the models are 18 and over. Dines is clear that regular exposure to such material has an effect of breaking down the taboo about having sex with children.
> 
> She recently interviewed a number of men in prison who had committed rape against children. All were habitual users of child pornography. "What they said to me was they got bored with 'regular' porn and wanted something fresh. They were horrified at the idea of sex with a prepubescent child initially but within six months they had all raped a child."
> 
> What can we expect next from the industry? "Nobody knows, including pornographers," she says, "but they are all looking for something more extreme, more shocking." She recently interviewed a well-known pornographer, while his latest film played in the background. It contained a scene of a woman being anally penetrated while kneeling in a coffin.
> 
> In Dines's view, the best way to address the rise of internet pornography is to raise public awareness about its actual content, and name it as a public health issue by bringing together educators, health professionals, community activists, parents and anti-violence experts to create materials that educate the public. "Just as we had anti-smoking campaigns, we need an anti-porn campaign that alerts people to the individual and cultural harms it creates."
> 
> "Myths about those of us who hate pornography also need to be dispelled in order to gain more support from progressives," she says. "The assumption that if you are a woman who hates pornography you are against sex shows how successful the industry is at collapsing porn into sex." Would the critics of the employment practices and products at McDonald's be accused of being anti-eating, she asks pointedly.
> 
> The backlash against Dines and her work is well-documented. Various pro-porn activists post accusations about her on websites, suggesting she is motivated by money, hates sex, and victimises women to support her supposed anti-male ideology. Salon.com reported recently that the sex writer, Violet Blue, had launched a pro-porn campaign to counteract an anti-porn conference that Dines and colleagues held last month. Dines is regularly criticised by pornographers in the trade magazines and on porn websites and she tells me that her college receives letters after any public event at which she is speaking, attacking her views.
> 
> Does she ever feel depressed by all this? "It gets me down sometimes, of course. But I try to surround myself with good things – my students, colleagues, and my family." She says the blueprint for her aims is the eradication of slavery in the US, which was achieved despite the fact that every single institution was geared to uphold and perpetuate it. "What is at stake is the nature of the world that we live in," says Dines. "We have to wrestle it back."


The truth about the porn industry | Life and style | The Guardian

Great article.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

> Norman Doidge on pornography and neuroplasticity - worthwhile reading
> 
> 
> These pages of this recent book (The Brain That Changes Itself) by psychiatrist Norman Doidge are very relevant to porn addiction, and also, if you keep reading, to how and why oxytocin (connection with others) can help reset the brain:
> 
> For more on the book: The Brain That Changes Itself: Stories of Personal Triumph from the ... - Norman Doidge - Google Books...
> 
> 102 The current porn epidemic gives a graphic demonstration that sexual tastes can be acquired. Pornography, delivered by high-speed Internet connections, satisfies every one of the prerequisites for neuroplastic change [forming new neural circuitry- a key piece in addiction].
> 
> Pornography seems, at first glance, to be a purely instinctual matter: sexually explicit pictures trigger instinctual responses, which are the product of millions of years of evolution. But if that were true, pornography would be unchanging. The same triggers, bodily parts and their proportions, that appealed to our ancestors would excite us. This is what pornographers would have us believe, for they claim they are battling sexual repression, taboo, and fear and that their goal is to liberate the natural, pent-up sexual instincts.
> 
> But in fact the content of pornography is a dynamic phenomenon that perfectly illustrates the progress of an acquired taste. Thirty years ago, "hardcore" pornography usually meant the explicit depiction of sexual intercourse between two aroused partners, displaying their genitals. "Softcore" meant pictures of women, mostly, on a bed, at their toilette, or in some semi-romantic setting, in various states of undress, breasts revealed.
> 
> Now hardcore has evolved and is increasingly dominated by the sadomasochistic themes of forced sex, ejaculations on women's faces, and angry anal sex, all involving scripts fusing sex with hatred and humiliation. Hardcore pornography now explores the world of perversion, while softcore is now what hardcore was a few decades ago, [103] explicit sexual intercourse between adults, now available on cable TV. The comparatively tame softcore pictures of yesteryear--women in various states of undress--now show up on mainstream media all day long, in the pornification of everything, including television, rock videos, soap operas, advertisements, and so on.
> 
> Pornography’s growth has been extraordinary; it accounts for 25 percent of video rentals and is the fourth most common reason people give for going online. An MSNBC.com survey of viewers in 2001 found that 80 percent felt they were spending so much time on pornographic sites that they were putting their relationships or jobs at risk. Softcore pornography’s influence is now most profound because, now that it is no longer hidden it influences young people with little sexual experience and especially plastic minds, in the process of forming their sexual tastes and desires. Yet the plastic influence of pornography on adults can also be profound, and those who use it have no sense of the extent to which their brains are reshaped by it.
> 
> During the mid- to late 1990s, when the Internet was growing rapidly and pornography was exploding on it, I treated or assessed a number of men who all had essentially the same story. Each had acquired a taste for a kind of pornography that, to a greater or lesser degree, troubled or even disgusted him, had a disturbing effect on the pattern of his sexual excitement, and ultimately affected his relationships and sexual potency.
> 
> None of these men were fundamentally immature, socially awkward, or withdrawn from the world into a massive pornography collection that was a substitute for relationships with real women. These were pleasant, generally thoughtful men, in reasonably successful relationships or marriages.
> 
> Typically, while I was treating one of these men for some other problem, he would report, almost as an aside and with telling discomfort, that he found himself spending more and more time on the Internet, looking at pornography and masturbating. He might try to [104] ease his discomfort by asserting that everybody did it. In some cases he would begin by looking at a Playboy-type site or at a nude picture or video clip that someone had sent him as a lark. In other cases he would visit a harmless site, with a suggestive ad that redirected him to risque sites, and soon he would be hooked.
> 
> A number of these men also reported something else, often in passing, that caught my attention. They reported increasing difficulty in being turned on by their actual sexual partners, spouses or girlfriends, though they still considered them objectively attractive. When I asked if this phenomenon had any relationship to viewing pornography, they answered that it initially helped them get more excited during sex but over time had the opposite effect. Now, instead of using their senses to enjoy being in bed, in the present, with their partners, lovemaking increasingly required them to fantasize that they were part of a porn script. Some gently tried to persuade their lovers to act like porn stars, and they were increasingly interested in “****ing” as opposed to “making love.” Their sexual fantasy lives were increasingly dominated by the scenarios that they had, so to speak downloaded into their brains, and these new scripts were often more primitive and more violent than their previous sexual fantasies. I got the impression that any sexual creativity these men had was dying and that they were becoming addicted to Internet porn.
> 
> The changes I observed are not confined to a few people in therapy. A social shift is occurring. While it is usually difficult to get information about private sexual mores, this is not the case with pornography today, because its use is increasingly public. This shift coincides with the change from calling it "pornography" to the more casual term "porn." For his book on American campus life, I Am Charlotte Simmons, Tom Wolfe spent a number of years observing students on university campuses. In the book one boy, Ivy Peters, comes into the male residence and says, "Anybody got porn?"
> 
> Wolfe goes on, "This was not an unusual request. Many boys [105] spoke openly about how they masturbated at least once every day, as if this were some sort of prudent maintenance of the psychosexual system."One of the boys tells Ivy Peters, "Try the third floor. They got some one-hand magazines up there." But Peters responds, "I've build up a tolerance to magazines...I need videos." Another boy says, "Oh, f'r Chrissake, I.P., it's ten o'clock at night. In another hour the cum dumpsters will start coming over here to spend the night...And you're looking for porn videos and a knuckle ****." Then Ivy "shrugged and turned his palms up as if to say, 'I want porn. What's the big deal?'"
> 
> The big deal is his tolerance. He recognizes that he is like a drug addict who can no longer get high on the images that once turned him on. And the danger is that this tolerance will carry over into relationships, as it did in patients whom I was seeing, leading to potency problems and new, at times unwelcome, tastes. When pornographers boast that they are pushing the envelope by introducing new, harder themes, what they don't say is that they must, because their customers are building up a tolerance to the content. The back pages of men's risque magazines and Internet porn sites are filled with ads for Viagra-type drugs--medicine developed for older men with erectile problems related to aging and blocked blood vessels in the penis. Today young men who surf porn are tremendously fearful of impotence, or “erectile dysfunction” as it is euphemistically called. The misleading term implies that these men have a problem in their penises, but the problem is in their heads, in their sexual brain maps. The penis works fine when they use pornography. It rarely occurs to them that there may be a relationship between the pornography they are consuming and their impotence. (A few men, however, tellingly described their hours at computer porn sites as time spent "masturbating my brains out.")
> 
> One of the boys in Wolfe's scene describes the girls who are coming over to have sex with their boyfriends as "cum dumpsters." He too is influenced by porn images, for "cum dumpsters," like many [106] women in porn films, are always eager, available receptacles and therefore devalued.
> 
> The addictiveness of Internet pornography is not a metaphor. Not all addictions are to drugs or alcohol. People can be seriously addicted to gambling, even to running. All addicts show a loss of control of the activity, compulsively seek it out despite negative consequences, develop tolerance so that they need higher and higher levels of stimulation for satisfaction, and experience withdrawal if they can't consummate the addictive act.
> 
> All addiction involves long-term, sometimes lifelong, neuroplastic change in the brain. For addicts, moderation is impossible, and they must avoid the substance or activity completely if they are to avoid addictive behaviors. Alcoholics Anonymous insists that there are no "former alcoholics" and makes people who haven't had a drink for decades introduce themselves at a meeting by saying, "My name is John, and I am an alcoholic." In terms of [brain] plasticity, they are often correct.
> 
> In order to determine how addictive a street drug is, researchers at the National Institutes of Health (NIH) in Maryland train a rat to press a bar until it gets a shot of the drug. The harder the animal is willing to work to press the bar, the more addictive the drug. Cocaine, almost all other illegal drugs, and even nondrug addictions such as running make the pleasure-giving neurotransmitter dopamine more active in the brain. Dopamine is called the reward transmitter, because when we accomplish something--run a race and win--our brain triggers its release. Though exhausted, we get a surge of energy, exciting pleasure, and confidence and even raise our hands and run a victory lap. The losers, on the other hand, who get no such dopamine surge, immediately run out of energy, collapse at the finish line, and feel awful about themselves. By hijacking our dopamine system, addictive substances give us pleasure without our having to work for it.
> 
> [107] Dopamine, as we saw in Merzenick's work, is also involved in plastic change. The same surge of dopamine that thrills us also consolidates the neuronal connections responsible for the behaviors that led us to accomplish our goal. When Merzenick used an electrode to stimulate an animal's dopamine reward system while playing a sound, dopamine release stimulated plastic change, enlarging the representation for the sound in the animal's auditory map. An important link with porn is that dopamine is also released in sexual excitement, increasing the sex drive in both sexes, facilitating orgasm, and activating the brain's pleasure centers. Hence the addictive power of pornography.
> 
> Eric Nestler, at the University of Texas, has shown how addictions cause permanent changes in the brains of animals. A single dose of many addictive drugs will produce a protein, called delta FosB that accumulates in the neurons. Each time the drug is used, more delta FosB accumulates until it throws a genetic switch, affecting which genes are turned on or off. Flipping this switch causes changes that persist long after the drug is stopped, leading to irreversible damage to the brain’s dopamine system and rendering the animal far more prone to addiction. Non-drug addictions, such as running and sucrose drinking, also lead to the accumulation of deltaFosB and the same permanent changes in the dopamine system. [Note: Not sure these are permanent. The study we saw said 1-2 months for lingering deltaFosB. More on Delta FosB, and even more on DeltaFosB.]
> 
> Pornographers promise healthy pleasure and relief from sexual tension, but what they often deliver is addiction, tolerance, and an eventual decrease in pleasure. Paradoxically, the male patients I worked with often craved pornography but didn’t like it. The usual view is that an addict goes back for more of his fix because he likes the pleasure it gives and doesn't like the pain of withdrawal. But addicts take drugs when there is no prospect of pleasure, when they know they have an insufficient dose to make them high, and will crave more before they begin to withdraw. Wanting and liking are two different things.
> 
> [108] An addict experiences cravings because his plastic brain has become sensitized to the drug or the experience. Sensitization leads to increased wanting. It is the accumulation of deltaFosB, caused by exposure to an addictive substance or activity, that leads to sensitization.
> 
> Pornography is more exciting than satisfying because we have two separate pleasure systems in our brains, one that has to do with exciting pleasure and one with satisfying pleasure. The exciting system relates to the "appetitive" pleasure that we get imagining something we desire, such as sex or a good meal. Its neurochemistry is largely dopamine-related, and it raises our tension level.
> 
> The second pleasure system has to do with the satisfaction, or consummatory pleasure, that attends actually having sex or having that meal, a calming, fulfilling pleasure. Its neurochemistry is based on the release of endorphins, which are related to opiates and give a peaceful, euphoric bliss.
> 
> Pornography, by offering an endless harem of sexual objects, hyperactivates the appetitive system. Porn viewers develop new maps in their brains, based on the photos and videos they see. Because it is a use-it-or-lose-it brain, when we develop a map area, we long to keep it activated. Just as our muscles become impatient for exercise if we've been sitting all day, so too do our senses hunger to be stimulated.
> 
> The men at their computers looking at porn were uncannily like the rats in the cages of the NIH, pressing the bar to get a shot of dopamine or its equivalent. Though they didn't know it, they had been seduced into pornographic training sessions that met all the conditions required for plastic change of brain maps. Since neurons [109] that fire together wire together, these men got massive amounts of practice wiring these images into the pleasure centers of the brain, with the rapt attention necessary for plastic change. They imagined these images when away from their computers, or while having sex with their girlfriends, reinforcing them. Each time they felt sexual excitement and had an orgasm when they masturbated, a "spritz of dopamine," the reward neurotransmitter, consolidated the connections made in the brain during the sessions. Not only did the reward facilitate the behavior; it provoked none of the embarrassment they felt purchasing Playboy at a store. Here was a behavior with no “punishment,” only reward.
> 
> The content of what they found exciting changed as the Web sites introduced themes and scripts that altered their brains without their awareness. Because plasticity is competitive, the brain maps for new, exciting images increased at the expense of what had previously attracted them--the reason, I believe, they began to find their girlfriends less of a turn-on.
> 
> ...
> 
> [110]Until he happened upon the spanking pictures, which presumably tapped into some childhood experience or fantasy about being punished, the images he saw interested him but didn't compel him. Other people's sexual fantasies bore us. Thomas's experience was similar to that of my patients; without being fully aware of what they were looking for, they scanned hundreds of images and scenarios until they hit upon an image or sexual script that touched some buried theme that really excited them.
> 
> [111]Once Thomas found that image, he changed. That spanking image had his focused attention, the condition for plastic change. And unlike a real woman, these porn images were available all day, every day on the computer.
> 
> Now Thomas was hooked. He tried to control himself but was spending at least five hours a day on his laptop. He surfed secretly, sleeping only three hours a night. His girlfriend, aware of his exhaustion, wondered if he was seeing someone else. He became so sleep deprived that his health suffered, and he got a series of infections that landed him in a hospital emergency room and finally caused him to take stock. He began inquiring among his male friends and found that many of them were also hooked.
> 
> ...
> 
> Hardcore porn unmasks some of the early neural networks that formed in the critical periods of sexual development and brings all these early, forgotten or repressed elements together [112] to form a new network, in which all the features are wired together. Porn sites generate catalogs of common kinks and mix them together in images. Sooner or later the surfer finds a killer combination that presses a number of his sexual buttons at once. Then he reinforces the network by viewing the images repeatedly, masturbating, releasing dopamine and strengthening these networks. He has created a kind of "neosexuality," a rebuilt libido that has strong roots in his buried sexual tendencies. Because he often develops tolerance, the pleasure of sexual discharge must be supplemented with the pleasure of an aggressive release, and sexual and aggressive images are increasingly mingled--hence the increase in sadomasochistic themes in hardcore porn.
> 
> Also see this excerpt from Doidge's work, which describes a technique for overcoming compulsive behavior, and this chapter from Cupid's Poisoned Arrow, called The Road to Excess.
> 
> Here's another excerpt from Doidge's book, on how a taste for bondage can develop.
> 
> On how the brain can modify itself to permit us to fall in love:
> Romantic love [ON THE OTHER HAND] triggers such powerful emotion that we can reconfigure what we find attractive, even overcoming “objective” beauty.”
> 
> 113 Being in love triggers an emotional state so pleasurable that it can make even pockmarks attractive, plastically rewiring our aesthetic sense. … Falling in love also lowers the threshold at which the pleasure centers will fire.
> 
> 114 The addict, the manic and the lover are increasingly filled with hopeful anticipation and are sensitive to anything that might give pleasure…. Because our brains are experiencing a surge of dopamine, which consolidates plastic change, any pleasurable experiences and associations we have in the initial state of love are thus wired into our brains. [It] not only allows us to take more pleasure in the world, it also makes it harder for us to experience pain and displeasure or aversion. … Things that normally bother us don’t. [Being in love] makes it harder for us to be unhappy.
> 
> 116 A tolerance, akin to tolerance for a drug, can develop in happy lovers as they get used to each other. Dopamine likes novelty. [Advises lovers to surprise each other]
> … Love creates a generous state of mind. Because love allows us to experience as pleasurable situations or physical features that we otherwise might not, it also allows us to unlearn negative associations, another plastic phenomenon.
> 
> 117 Different chemistries are involved in learning that in unlearning … Unlearning and weakening connections between neurons is just as plastic a process, and just as important, as learning and strengthening them. …Evidence suggestions that unlearning existing memories is necessary to make room for new memories in our networks.
> 
> 118 [Say goodbye to flashbacks…in a sort of grieving process? He says that releasing each intense memory of a loved one who is gone - in a mini ritual of farewell -, can clear the decks for new action. This *might* work with "favorite flashbacks, or even a porn habit.]
> 
> 119 Freeman believes that when we commit in love, the brain neuromodulator [120] oxytocin is released, allowing existing neuronal connections to melt away so that changes on a large scale can follow. Oxytocin is sometimes called the commitment neurmodulator because it reinforces bonding in mammals. … Many young people who doubt they will be able to handle the responsibilities of parenting are not aware of the extent to which OT [oxytocin] may change their brains, allowing them to rise to the occasion.
> 
> Whereas dopamine induces excitement, puts us into high gear, and triggers sexual arousal, OT induces a calm, warm mood that increases tender feelings and attachment and may lead us to lower our guard.
> 
> 120, [OT may “wipe” past loves in favor of current one.] Freeman proposes that OT melts down existing neuronal connections that underlie existing attachments, so new attachments can be formed. [OT makes it possible for them to learn new patterns.] … What nature provides, in a neuromodulator like OT, is the ability for two brains in love to go through a period of heightened plasticity, allowing them to mold to each other and shape each other’s intentions and perceptions. …As Freeman says, “The deepest meaning of sexual experience lies [121] not in pleasure, or even in reproduction, but in the opportunity it affords to [overcome self-absorption and build mutual trust].”


The Brain That Changes Itself: Stories of Personal Triumph from the Frontiers of Brain Science by Norman Doidge - Reviews, Discussion, Bookclubs, Lists


----------



## anonim

*LittleDeer* said:


> I disagree, I think any viewing of porn is a problem,


to your statement, a question (or several)

is it a problem to you if a single or uncommited man looks at it? if so, why?

is there a difference between men looking at porn and women looking at porn?

why do you think all porn is violent? and does you opinion about porn differ to non violent porn?


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## moco82

Next we'll find out that WWII movies raised a generation of war criminals.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

anonim said:


> to your statement, a question (or several)
> 
> is it a problem to you if a single or uncommited man looks at it? if so, why?
> 
> is there a difference between men looking at porn and women looking at porn?
> 
> why do you think all porn is violent? and does you opinion about porn differ to non violent porn?


Maybe you should read the things I posted with an open mind.

Also yes I don't think porn is good for men or women.

I don't really care to change your mind, just providing some (what i believe is good info) for people about why porn can be very harmful. 

I think it's fine for most men, because they are doing the viewing (not saying that women don't view it), it's not men who are mostly objectified and humiliated, used and abused in porn. It's not men who have unrealistic and painful sex acts expected of them, it's women.

I don't believe human beings should be used as sexual commodities. It does not help men relate to women.
If you want a very good reason not to let young people watch porn, the following provides some great insight. Very sad for young men and women. I know I wouldn't want that for my son.

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/zimchallenge.html


----------



## costa200

Cherry said:


> You're assuming I read women fantasy novels, and you're assuming I watch chick flicks. Neither of which I do. And I don't know another woman who reads the novels I keep hearing people compare porn to. Not sure what you're talking about.. should I venture into a bookstore?


You don't actually need to do those things to get influenced by it. Want a demonstration? Think of stuff a man can do that can be considered romantic. Let's say offer you some flowers, sing you a song, pick you up on a carriage with a white horse. How do you know those things convey the message of romance? Because our society has established that it does. It's all over the media.

That's the standard used. If a man doesn't do this kind of stuff he isn't romantic and is often accused of not being a romantic fellow. this opens up the situation to all sorts of punishment. You can nag a man for it. You can even threaten separation for it. Some women even point it as the reason they cheated (lame as it is). 

Women are comfortable with this, are they not?

Now how about the standards emanating from male fantasies? They want a BJ for example... His wife doesn't give it. Does society support a guy leaving his wife because she doesn't give BJs? No it doesn't. So what does he do? He forgets about it and is frustrated for the rest of his life? He cheats with a 5 dollar hooker? Or he looks at some porn and masturbates?

The later solution is used by most men (take care that i'm using BJ as an example, it can be anything, even role-playing or kinkier stuff). 

So, some women would have men punished for not fulfilling their needs and punished for fulfilling their own needs. Isn't that a tad unfair? 

Romantic novels and most chick flicks are very much masturbatory in nature. Only it's not openly sexual. And even women who don't read/see them are very much influenced by it. Everyone knows Romeo and Juliet.


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## costa200

Littledeer, let me aask you something. Why do you think some porn (not all) has women humiliated and submissive? What's the reason for that common theme?


----------



## *LittleDeer*

costa200 said:


> You don't actually need to do those things to get influenced by it. Want a demonstration? Think of stuff a man can do that can be considered romantic. Let's say offer you some flowers, sing you a song, pick you up on a carriage with a white horse. How do you know those things convey the message of romance? Because our society has established that it does. It's all over the media.
> 
> That's the standard used. If a man doesn't do this kind of stuff he isn't romantic and is often accused of not being a romantic fellow. this opens up the situation to all sorts of punishment. You can nag a man for it. You can even threaten separation for it. Some women even point it as the reason they cheated (lame as it is).
> 
> Women are comfortable with this, are they not?
> 
> Now how about the standards emanating from male fantasies? They want a BJ for example... His wife doesn't give it. Does society support a guy leaving his wife because she doesn't give BJs? No it doesn't. So what does he do? He forgets about it and is frustrated for the rest of his life? He cheats with a 5 dollar hooker? Or he looks at some porn and masturbates?
> 
> The later solution is used by most men (take care that i'm using BJ as an example, it can be anything, even role-playing or kinkier stuff).
> 
> So, some women would have men punished for not fulfilling their needs and punished for fulfilling their own needs. Isn't that a tad unfair?
> 
> Romantic novels and most chick flicks are very much masturbatory in nature. Only it's not openly sexual. And even women who don't read/see them are very much influenced by it. Everyone knows Romeo and Juliet.


You think a woman wanting a man to be romantic is equal to a man wanting to do painful and degrading sex acts, or akin to the effects of porn, particularly because of the amounts and the way its' available over the internet and the rate it is consumed is the same as a romance novel? I disagree. Romance does not exploit men at their most vulnerable. 

We are absolutely influenced by the media, and lots of it is harmful, but doing loving caring and sweet things for your spouse is not quite the same as getting your sexual release from other women, and some men even being unable to perform because of their porn consumption. Or taking what you have sen into the bedroom and harming your spouse, wanting to have anal or threesomes etc..

My man doesn't find it hard to do sweet things for me, nor I for him. We share fantasies and have a very active and full sex life. I have no doubt that both of us have been influenced by porn, by things we have read and seen. I try not to have unrealistic expectations of him, I know he's not perfect, and he knows I'm not. 
Neither of us partake in activities that make the other uncomfortable, neither of us get our sexual release from others. We no longer watch things or read things that may have a negative impact on our lives or effect our sex life and intimate connection in a negative way. I am sure he doesn't watch porn, and I'm betting our sex life is far more interesting, exciting, varied and intimate then most people. JMO.


----------



## Cherry

costa200 said:


> You don't actually need to do those things to get influenced by it. Want a demonstration? Think of stuff a man can do that can be considered romantic. Let's say offer you some flowers, sing you a song, pick you up on a carriage with a white horse. How do you know those things convey the message of romance? Because our society has established that it does. It's all over the media.
> 
> That's the standard used. If a man doesn't do this kind of stuff he isn't romantic and is often accused of not being a romantic fellow. this opens up the situation to all sorts of punishment. You can nag a man for it. You can even threaten separation for it. Some women even point it as the reason they cheated (lame as it is).
> 
> Women are comfortable with this, are they not?
> 
> Now how about the standards emanating from male fantasies? They want a BJ for example... His wife doesn't give it. Does society support a guy leaving his wife because she doesn't give BJs? No it doesn't. So what does he do? He forgets about it and is frustrated for the rest of his life? He cheats with a 5 dollar hooker? Or he looks at some porn and masturbates?
> 
> The later solution is used by most men (take care that i'm using BJ as an example, it can be anything, even role-playing or kinkier stuff).
> 
> So, some women would have men punished for not fulfilling their needs and punished for fulfilling their own needs. Isn't that a tad unfair?
> 
> Romantic novels and most chick flicks are very much masturbatory in nature. Only it's not openly sexual. And even women who don't read/see them are very much influenced by it. Everyone knows Romeo and Juliet.


You know what I want my H to do to win me over and to be romantic.. be him. I don't want flowers, or poems or whatever. I have no fantasy world with him. He is who he is... And I find him sexy as he!!. So quit generalizing that women want flowers and crap or else the men don't get BJs. My H may not get a BJ because I triggered one night and visualized him fvcking some scank he found off CL.. awful thought.. and something that can happen during a reconciliation..


----------



## moco82

Littledeer, you keep ducking the question of why porn = violence. As much as we'd love to read up on as much as possible, including the literature you're referring to, let's be realistic. At least direct us to a summary of fewer than 300 words.


----------



## anonim

*LittleDeer* said:


> Maybe you should read the things I posted with an open mind.
> 
> maybe you should practice what you preach.
> 
> Also yes I don't think porn is good for men or women.
> 
> I've read your arguments on why, and we dont see eye to eye, i'll leave it at that.
> 
> I don't really care to change your mind, just providing some (what i believe is good info) for people about why porn can be very harmful.
> 
> I think it's fine for most men, because they are doing the viewing (not saying that women don't view it), it's not men who are mostly objectified and humiliated, used and abused in porn. It's not men who have unrealistic and painful sex acts expected of them, it's women.
> 
> I'll surprise you here, I dont think its fine for anyone to be hurt, abused, humiliated in porn. unless they want to or are being adequately compensated. its not ok. however men are objectified in porn also.
> 
> because most men dont have the 12" d*ck and f*ck for hours without a break, and cant live up the the commercial porn standard.
> 
> same as most women dont have a the perfect figures, boobs, face, hair etc.
> 
> I don't believe human beings should be used as sexual commodities. It does not help men relate to women.
> If you want a very good reason not to let young people watch porn, the following provides some great insight. Very sad for young men and women. I know I wouldn't want that for my son.
> 
> This is real life. anything that can get something you want from someone else is a commodity. this includes sex, from flirting to penetrative.
> 
> 
> Philip Zimbardo: The demise of guys? | Video on TED.com


----------



## anonim

Cherry said:


> You know what I want my H to do to win me over and to be romantic.. be him. I don't want flowers, or poems or whatever. I have no fantasy world with him. He is who he is... And I find him sexy as he!!. So quit generalizing that women want flowers and crap or else the men don't get BJs. My H may not get a BJ because I triggered one night and visualized him fvcking some scank he found off CL.. awful thought.. and something that can happen during a reconciliation..


So why is it then that mean will get a strong emotional response from women, when we get them flowers? or plan a surprise night out?

@LD I respectfully request an answer as to why you think that porn = violence?


----------



## Cherry

anonim said:


> So why is it then that mean will get a strong emotional response from women, when we get them flowers? or plan a surprise night out?
> 
> @LD I respectfully request an answer as to why you think that porn = violence?


My man doesn't. It's sweet.. but I don't provide him anything extra for it. But now when he completed my dream bathroom, it was a different story . But really, perhaps I'm not the right person to compare things to . I do think porn is degrading, and I can't change my feelings on that. I will watch it occasionally with my H though... But I just can't get into it much given my feelings on it.


----------



## anonim

Cherry said:


> My man doesn't. It's sweet.. but I don't provide him anything extra for it. But now when he completed my dream bathroom, it was a different story . But really, perhaps I'm not the right person to compare things to . I do think porn is degrading, and I can't change my feelings on that. I will watch it occasionally with my H though... But I just can't get into it much given my feelings on it.


cant fault you on your opinions, your entitled to them. It sounds like you prefer things done for you over romantic gestures (as a love language i mean) so I guess it doesnt really apply to you in particular.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

moco82 said:


> Littledeer, you keep ducking the question of why porn = violence. As much as we'd love to read up on as much as possible, including the literature you're referring to, let's be realistic. At least direct us to a summary of fewer than 300 words.


Price of Pleasure Preview | Media Education Foundation

Happy to help. Perhaps if readings too much, you could watch this. 
Any one really interested in how damaging the porn industry can be might like to watch it. 

You are welcome.

And I feel so sorry for men who's wives are sexually focused on them, but they want some romance, words, maybe flowers etc. Not really, hardly damaging stuff. porn on the other hand is to seek sexual gratification outside your marriage. Very different, apples and oranges. I think it's all ways bought up because they know porn is damaging, but have defend it it with something... anything apparently.


----------



## costa200

> You think a woman wanting a man to be romantic is equal to a man wanting to do painful and degrading sex acts, or akin to the effects of porn, particularly because of the amounts and the way its' available over the internet and the rate it is consumed is the same as a romance novel? I disagree. Romance does not exploit men at their most vulnerable.


You seem to be stuck on some sort of victorian sexual ideal for women. What is "degrading" for you can be another thing for another woman. Plus, who told you that every man that sees porn tries to be painful with his wife? Wouldn't that mean that basically every woman would be suffering from this abuse?



> My man doesn't find it hard to do sweet things for me, nor I for him. We share fantasies and have a very active and full sex life. I have no doubt that both of us have been influenced by porn, by things we have read and seen. I try not to have unrealistic expectations of him, I know he's not perfect, and he knows I'm not.


doesn't this basically contradict everything you said before? You're an intelligent person and you recognize that is basically impossible to escape the influence of the porn industry. By your own words your own sex life is influenced by it. Then why isn't your husband forcing you to do degrading things or painful things? 

Doesn't that show that a healthy couple isn't really bothered by porn? That maybe porn can even give you some ideas to try out?

Of course there will always going to be unbalanced people. But they don't need porn to be unbalanced. They already have those problems in them. 

In the 19th century, before the advent of accessible photographic material men used brothels a lot more. And it was accepted. I think, by comparison seeing some 2d pixels is a great improvement.




> You know what I want my H to do to win me over and to be romantic.. be him. I don't want flowers, or poems or whatever. I have no fantasy world with him. He is who he is... And I find him sexy as he!!.


Your hubby is lucky and you're an exception 



> My H may not get a BJ because I triggered one night and visualized him fvcking some scank he found off CL.. awful thought..


Can't blame you there... At all... Sorry if my example made you think unhappy thoughts


----------



## Hope1964

Damn, when I saw how many pages this thread had grown I thought maybe there'd finally be a post about porn that didn't turn into a mud slinging contest and had some actual DISCUSSIONS. Apparently I was sadly mistaken.

If anyone cares to carry on the addiction debate aspect of this discussion feel free to PM me.


----------



## moco82

Hope, this is pretty civil so far. Let's make it more interesting:

Hey, does that [wonderful/terrible] Obamacare law provide for coverage for porn addiction treatment?


----------



## SprucHub

I think a significant issue on this thread is the generalizing and projecting. 

A few examples - looking at porn means going outside the marriage for sex. This is an opinion, not a fact, and extreme at that. Looking at porn (in the general sense - videos, not interactivce, and doing it alone) means watching other people being sexual and masturbating to it. By definition it is having sex alone. It means being stimulated by watching others, but not having sex with them, not developing feelings for them. So, I say this is projecting because it is a projection of the spouse that the viewer is imagining being sexual with the actors rather just enjoying the "acting". While this is likely true of some, it is likely not true of others. This statement is like saying watching someone cook is like eating in her kitchen. Or, that a person watching football is doing so picturing herself in the quarterback's shoes rather than just appreciating the talent on the field.

Another statement that is extreme is that it leads men to have unrealistic views of sex and to seek damaging or painful activities. Those "activities" existed well before recorded pornigraphy (look up 120 days of sodom for examples of extreme sex). This statement is extremely offensive insofar as it label men as incapable of making rational determinations after viewing pornography. NASCAR can make people drive like a**holes, but that does not mean most people that view it do not understand the context. Beginnng an argument with the assumption that men are too dumb to distinguish what is and is not acceptible and what is and is not real will not help you advance the argument.

Asserting that pornography is bad because it ensnares victims is degrading to pornographic actors. While many may be "damaged", many likely are not and are doing it for the money. Prostitution is not called the "oldest profession" for no reason. Pornography, as I see it, is like regulated prostitution where the participants can make more money and be exposed to less risk of violent customers and disease (it is certainly a risky behavior, just seemingly less so than prostitution). So, again, assuming performers are too dumb to make a decision on their own is not a fair way to present an argument. Some are, some aren't.

The valid arguments are those that point to specific instances it is not ok without extrapolating based on opinion.


----------



## Hope1964

moco82 said:


> Hope, this is pretty civil so far. Let's make it more interesting:
> 
> Hey, does that [wonderful/terrible] Obamacare law provide for coverage for porn addiction treatment?


I'm in Canada so Obamacare is far, far off of my radar  There is coverage for that here, btw.

It is civil, just tiring to see the same posters and topics over and over about the 'evils of ALL PORN'.

One VERY IMPORTANT distinction that practically no one makes is the difference between internet (interactive) porn and magazine/DVD porn. Me and hubby are fine with the mags/DVD's but I don't think we'll ever be able to go online again. That would be like taking an alcoholic to a bar where everything was free and they could have whatever they wanted.


----------



## moco82

Hope, I can't remember the last time we bought a DVD--any DVD. We've watched some of the pornotubes together, never going overboard. Just like we don't watch all the available movies on Amazon or Netflix just because there is no extra charge


----------



## SprucHub

Hope1964 said:


> I'm in Canada so Obamacare is far, far off of my radar  There is coverage for that here, btw.
> 
> It is civil, just tiring to see the same posters and topics over and over about the 'evils of ALL PORN'.
> 
> One VERY IMPORTANT distinction that practically no one makes is the difference between internet (interactive) porn and magazine/DVD porn. Me and hubby are fine with the mags/DVD's but I don't think we'll ever be able to go online again. That would be like taking an alcoholic to a bar where everything was free and they could have whatever they wanted.


Interacting with someone is not what I'd call porn. I'd call that cheating (makes my skin crawl). The internet sites with just videos are what I'd call porn (does not make my skin crawl).


----------



## Hope1964

SprucHub said:


> Interacting with someone is not what I'd call porn. I'd call that cheating (makes my skin crawl). The internet sites with just videos are what I'd call porn (does not make my skin crawl).


I agree. The porn sites have links and pop ups and in-your-face webcams and all kinds of crap though. For an addict like my hubby, it's deadly. It's impossible to link to anything like that through a DVD or a magazine. They have ads, but that's not the same as a live link or naked woman propositioning you in a pop up.


----------



## Cherry

moco82 said:


> Hope, this is pretty civil so far. Let's make it more interesting:
> 
> Hey, does that [wonderful/terrible] Obamacare law provide for coverage for porn addiction treatment?


Yes, its behavioral health...


----------



## Cherry

Hope1964 said:


> I agree. The porn sites have links and pop ups and in-your-face webcams and all kinds of crap though. For an addict like my hubby, it's deadly. It's impossible to link to anything like that through a DVD or a magazine. They have ads, but that's not the same as a live link or naked woman propositioning you in a pop up.


Exactly my point with my H too. He is so easily swayed by that kind "attention". It's not something he's surrounded by in real life.. but its so alluring for someone as sexual as he is too. He's already worked up by watching a little porn online.. It's just a little click of a button.. its not cheating, I don't want to actually step out on my marriage, etc.. etc..... And the cycle begins.

And he would watch the raunchy stuff (for those who say there is a difference.. most of what I've seen has been raunchy though).


----------



## *LittleDeer*

costa200 said:


> You seem to be stuck on some sort of victorian sexual ideal for women. What is "degrading" for you can be another thing for another woman. Plus, who told you that every man that sees porn tries to be painful with his wife? Wouldn't that mean that basically every woman would be suffering from this abuse?


I never said I didn't enjoy certain sex acts or participate in them, but I do know what is degrading and what's not. Not many men would be up for the same sex acts in reverse, where the man was the receiver. This is because in our society right now the majority of porn is male dominated. The facts are we are influenced by everything we see our whole lives, and currently we are saturated by porn, much of it being violent and degrading and more so every year, with pornographers admitting thins. I provided a link to the documentary "The price of pleasure" which explains it well. 

I now can't help what turns me on, but I do know that viewing certain things has changed me, and I can't unsee those things. Some things that never turned me on before, because I never would have thought of them now do it for me. And we are all heavily influenced, but more so by porn if we watch it, because of the way pour brains work, how the neural pathways work and the pleasure receptors. Companies wouldn't spend millions on advertising if little ideas didn't sway our thinking, so thunk about what overt suggestions, and actual practices that are pushed in our faces in the form of porn and normalised in todays culture do to us.



> doesn't this basically contradict everything you said before? You're an intelligent person and you recognize that is basically impossible to escape the influence of the porn industry. By your own words your own sex life is influenced by it. Then why isn't your husband forcing you to do degrading things or painful things?


No, I'm saying exactly that, we are all influenced by what we see, and if something is particularly normalised, then we begin to expect it as a norm and not see anything wrong with it. I do think it's damaging absolutely.
The women in porn are allways horny, ready to go, sometimes if they are ever reluctant after a little forcing, they are loving it, no matter what the act is. they don't need emotional connection, rarely foreplay etc. What isn't shown is behind the scenes, girls being drugged up so they can perfrom, vomiting because it's so gross, being in pain, sometimes needing sticthes, particularly after rough anal (I read some stuff by Dr who was on set and worked in the industry and what she described as happening to the women in the films was quite horrific, often sustaining injuries etc) 



> Doesn't that show that a healthy couple isn't really bothered by porn? That maybe porn can even give you some ideas to try out?


Porn is like the jumk food of sex. If people can't use their imaginations and connect without it then I feel sad. that's like saying Mcdonalds is good for you, it's not. everytime you eat you are pputting bad things into your body and if it influenced all your meals, you would be very unhealthy. Also porn stays in your mind, you can't unwatch it.



> Of course there will always going to be unbalanced people. But they don't need porn to be unbalanced. They already have those problems in them.


Studies show that watching porn leads men to be less empathatic to women, encourages them to see women as f%$#able objects, body parts etc. In fact there are few threads here in which many men state that they judge every single woman they meat first and foremost on if they would like to have sex with her. that's pretty sad, that women get reduced to nothings like that.
How does pornography impact boys' ideas about women and relationships? - Ask the Mediatrician
That's an article about young men viewing pornography and how it impacts their view of women and empathy for females.


> In the 19th century, before the advent of accessible photographic material men used brothels a lot more. And it was accepted. I think, by comparison seeing some 2d pixels is a great improvement.


Different porn has effected people differently, porn has never been so much of a problem as it is now, and increasingly so every year, with it being one of the major factors in which couples go to counseling.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

SprucHub said:


> I think a significant issue on this thread is the generalizing and projecting.
> 
> A few examples - looking at porn means going outside the marriage for sex. This is an opinion, not a fact, and extreme at that. Looking at porn (in the general sense - videos, not interactivce, and doing it alone) means watching other people being sexual and masturbating to it. By definition it is having sex alone. It means being stimulated by watching others, but not having sex with them, not developing feelings for them. So, I say this is projecting because it is a projection of the spouse that the viewer is imagining being sexual with the actors rather just enjoying the "acting". While this is likely true of some, it is likely not true of others. This statement is like saying watching someone cook is like eating in her kitchen. Or, that a person watching football is doing so picturing herself in the quarterback's shoes rather than just appreciating the talent on the field.


Porn does not work the same way as watching other movies, or football games etc. The way it effects the brain is very different. So it's not really comparable.

A functional endophenotype for sexual orientation... [Neuroimage. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI

If you can access that study, it basically talks about mirror neurons and how they work in the brain. What this means is when we watch porn our brain mirrors what we see, and it does not cause us to think about sex, it causes our bodies to react and our brains to think we are having sex. So in that sense it is like having sex with someone else.

Moreover when we orgasm we release oxytocin, which helps us bond to our partners, whenever we orgasm while watching porn and envisaging other people, we reduce our contectedness with our partners. In fact i read a study that showed the more porn a man watches, the more likely he is to cheat, because he is less bonded to his wife. that is why i believe sexless marriages or marriages with sparse sex where people seek sexual gratification else where are very unhealthy, and more likely to fail.



> Another statement that is extreme is that it leads men to have unrealistic views of sex and to seek damaging or painful activities. Those "activities" existed well before recorded pornigraphy (look up 120 days of sodom for examples of extreme sex). This statement is extremely offensive insofar as it label men as incapable of making rational determinations after viewing pornography. NASCAR can make people drive like a**holes, but that does not mean most people that view it do not understand the context. Beginnng an argument with the assumption that men are too dumb to distinguish what is and is not acceptible and what is and is not real will not help you advance the argument.


There have allways been extreme sex acts thoughout different periods in history. Often men women, children and boys were treated as sexual commodities and sex slaves and non human. This doesn't make that a good thing. there are times when orgies and bi sexuality was the norm, because that was the culture people were raised and the societal influence they had. It also didn't make it healthy or good. If i said I want my man to bisexual and take it up the butt and have some double penatration, and he should be good with it, because I can find examples of it throughout history, I mean seriously look at the Romans... well that would be ludicrous. Things fall in and out of "fashion" depending on societal values and influeneces and now there is no greater influence then social media, particularly the massive amounts of porn.



> Asserting that pornography is bad because it ensnares victims is degrading to pornographic actors. While many may be "damaged", many likely are not and are doing it for the money. Prostitution is not called the "oldest profession" for no reason. Pornography, as I see it, is like regulated prostitution where the participants can make more money and be exposed to less risk of violent customers and disease (it is certainly a risky behavior, just seemingly less so than prostitution). So, again, assuming performers are too dumb to make a decision on their own is not a fair way to present an argument. Some are, some aren't.


Very few women in porn come from afluent backgrounds, are well educated etc. If you want to do some research you will see, many had sex at very young ages, were sexually abused, are usually from low sociecenomic backgrounds, with little education and few choices. most in the industry are hooked on drugs (the ones that stay), many make one or two movies and move on because it is so vile. Rapes and sexual assault in the industry are rife, and many women who are traficked (sex slaves) end up in the sex industry, so you never know if you are watching a women who was forced by lack of choices, or forced though slavery. I personally wouldn't want to take that risk, even if I thought porn was healthy. But hey as long as people get their orgasm.



> The valis arguments are those that point to specific instances it is not ok without extrapolating based on opinion.


You mean as you just did?:scratchhead:


Wanted to add this article, very alarming, particularly if you have children, or just really care about the way world is headed.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...fender-Register-online-porn-warped-mind-.html
So disturbing. Porn is addictive and harmful.


----------



## SprucHub

*LittleDeer* said:


> Porn does not work the same way as watching other movies, or football games etc. The way it effects the brain is very different. So it's not really comparable.
> 
> A functional endophenotype for sexual orientation... [Neuroimage. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI
> 
> If you can access that study, it basically talks about mirror neurons and how they work in the brain. What this means is when we watch porn our brain mirrors what we see, and it does not cause us to think about sex, it causes our bodies to react and our brains to think we are having sex. So in that sense it is like having sex with someone else.
> 
> *Brain science of this type is completely theoretical. Even when responses are measured, there is no real conclusion as to cause and effect. One need go no further than Wikipedia to discount theories about mirror neurons in humans, and their purposes. And, if mirror neurors do operate to make a person feel like they are doing what they are watching, why would a person not feel like she is playing football rather than watching. The study you cite showed pictures of naked male and female trunks with signs of arousal to groups of homosexual and heterosexual men and women to measure their responses. Concluding from this study that a man watching porn cannot help but feel that he is involved inthe act that he is watching is one giant leap for mankind. Again - it is an expression of what you want porn to do - not necessarily what porn does (maybe it does, maybe it doesn't).*
> 
> Moreover when we orgasm we release oxytocin, which helps us bond to our partners, whenever we orgasm while watching porn and envisaging other people, we reduce our contectedness with our partners. *This conclusion assumes one "envisages" others while watching porn. Porn alleviates the need to envisage, as it provides the images for you. Also, the conclusion that having orgasms with ones partner and orgasms without causes there to be less of a connection than orgasms with is unfounded by your statement. If a H is with his W and both have orgasms and "bond", why would that bond be weakened by the H having additional orgasms while watching porn? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But it is necessary for your conclusion that porn is bad, so you assume that the bond is weakened. I'd posit that the bond can be strengthened because the man is getting all the orgasm he wants (presuming he is watching porn to maturbate during the periods he is not getting as much sexual release as he wants from his wife) and the W is getting the orgasms she wants.*
> 
> In fact i read a study that showed the more porn a man watches, the more likely he is to cheat, because he is less bonded to his wife. *My presumption is that men watch porn when they are not getting enough sex with their spouse or when they are not satisfied with the sex they are getting. Given that baseline, of course men that watch "more porn" are more likely to cheat. The relationship of porn and bonding is a chicken and egg problem - is increased porn use due to lack of bonding or lack of bonding due to increased porn use? Also, what about single people, this reason would not apply to them. Nor would the mirror neuron reason. Single people should have no reason not to watch porn.*that is why i believe sexless marriages or marriages with sparse sex where people seek sexual gratification else where are very unhealthy, and more likely to fail. *No argument here or anywhere else that sexless marriages are doomed to fail. I'd posit that porn can prolong a sexless marriage. It can sate one partner while the other partner is going through a difficult period or prolonged absence.*
> 
> 
> There have allways been extreme sex acts thoughout different periods in history. Often men women, children and boys were treated as sexual commodities and sex slaves and non human. This doesn't make that a good thing. there are times when orgies and bi sexuality was the norm, because that was the culture people were raised and the societal influence they had. It also didn't make it healthy or good. If i said I want my man to bisexual and take it up the butt and have some double penatration, and he should be good with it, because I can find examples of it throughout history, I mean seriously look at the Romans... well that would be ludicrous. Things fall in and out of "fashion" depending on societal values and influeneces and now there is no greater influence then social media, particularly the massive amounts of porn. *I never said anyone should be required to do anything, just that porn has always and will always exist. People will continue to push the envelope on sex. Blaming the internet or the prevalence of porn for this is unfair,, given that existed previously. I'd certainly argue that 50 Shades of Grey has likely done more for S&M than all of the internet porn out there (but I'd also argue that 50 shades is porn - based on reports - I have not read it)*
> 
> 
> Very few women in porn come from afluent backgrounds, are well educated etc. If you want to do some research you will see, many had sex at very young ages, were sexually abused, are usually from low sociecenomic backgrounds, with little education and few choices. most in the industry are hooked on drugs (the ones that stay), many make one or two movies and move on because it is so vile. Rapes and sexual assault in the industry are rife, and many women who are traficked (sex slaves) end up in the sex industry, so you never know if you are watching a women who was forced by lack of choices, or forced though slavery. I personally wouldn't want to take that risk, even if I thought porn was healthy. But hey as long as people get their orgasm. *No disagreement that many performers are from disadvantaged backgrounds and likely many are/were the victims of abuse. I seriously doubt that any of the mainstream producers drug and/or rape performers. The big business aspect of it makes that so much less likely. I mean, you think someone in California is drugging, raping and filming it, and then distributing that? There is an article about James Deen - a young male star that popular media is trying to make into a darling for teenaged girls (this, I find disturbing) - in Esquire or VF from this month. A reporter followed him around for a week. There was one scene that was particularly vicious. The performer knew what she was getting into and could have stopped it. There was a reporter on the set. I am sure there are a lot of damaged people in porn, stripping, prostitution. I do not see why that makes the industry wrong. I am sure there are also moral producers and actors. There are lots of bf/gf, H/W and other teams that act together too. By this logic, if one watches someone they know is acting of her own volition, it is justifiable.
> 
> And regarding preying on the disadvantaged, you are also castigating every low wage employer (not many McDonalds cashiers are from wealthy backgrounds), environmentally dangerous job (sewer cleaners and coal minors tend not to be Boston Brahamins), etc. It is very unfair to say that people taking jobs as a whole do not understand or are being taken advantage of.*
> 
> 
> You mean as you just did?:scratchhead:
> *As I did what, I do not have any answers. Just that castigating large groups of people and assuming that the high percentage of men and women that view porn are incapable of differentiating between porn and reality and are inserting a wedge between themselves and their partners or future partners and are indifferent to the plight of sex workers is not proving anyting, just projecting your negative view on porn by cherry picking information.*
> 
> Wanted to add this article, very alarming, particularly if you have children, or just really care about the way world is headed.
> 
> Jamie is 13 and hasn't even kissed a girl. But he's now on the Sex Offender Register after online porn warped his mind... | Mail Online
> So disturbing. Porn is addictive and harmful.


*Porn "can be" addictive. Porn "can be" harmful. (I fixed that sentence for you.) So is alcohol, in many, many, many cases. That does not mean it is a problem for everyone or even most people that drink occasionally or often. What I take from that article is that neglectful and negligent parenting is harmful. *

I should add that I think that a spouse has a right to dislike porn and insist that his/her partner avoid it. I also appreciate your view and your dislike of porn. I just do not think there is any baseline to assert that it is always bad and that all users are jeopardizing their relationships. That is an extrapolation of a personal viewpoint.


----------



## moco82

I remember a humorist short story or a novel from the 19th century about a young man who was in love with an Ancient-Greek-style marble statue of a nude woman in the garden of his family estate, and how doctors and geniuses from all over were invited to cure him--after all, he had to marry a girl from another aristocratic family and become at least a bit interested in her. I wonder if the prototype for the young man's character was a real person who masturbated to statues (maybe this was a bit of an autobiography?).


----------



## costa200

> I never said I didn't enjoy certain sex acts or participate in them, but I do know what is degrading and what's not.


You know what is degrading for you, personally. Unless you think there are moral absolutes and you're right and whoever doesn't agree is wrong you can't say something is degrading or not. 

Something can be degrading and unacceptable for a person and perfectly ok, even highly desirable, for another. 



> The women in porn are allways horny, ready to go, sometimes if they are ever reluctant after a little forcing, they are loving it, no matter what the act is. they don't need emotional connection, rarely foreplay etc.


Have you ever thought why that is? Why does the porn industry uses that general script? They don't seem to have an agenda other than making money, so why do they do this instead of portraying different ways of human connection? 

Do you know? 



> Porn is like the jumk food of sex. If people can't use their imaginations and connect without it then I feel sad.


Porn isn't a way to connect. If a couple is looking to connect through porn then they are screwed. Porn is used by some couples to get ideas of situations to try and to increase sexual excitement.



> In fact there are few threads here in which many men state that they judge every single woman they meat first and foremost on if they would like to have sex with her.


And it is true, even for women. This may be shocking to hear but studies of eye movements when two strangers meet indicate a few seconds of physical evaluations that is eminently directed at sexual evaluation. Apparently our brains can decide, within seconds, if the stranger is a viable sexual partner. 

It's a preliminary evaluation. Men are just more aware that they do it, or more open to talk about it.



> that's pretty sad, that women get reduced to nothings like that.


Skewed view. Unattractive males get reduced to nothings like that too. Have you ever been to a club? Unless they are inventive and get other stuff working for them (displays of wealth and social prominence) they aren't given the time of day. 

Maybe in an ideal pink world people would choose their mates for they inherent personality qualities. But this is a biologically driven situation. 



> That's an article about young men viewing pornography and how it impacts their view of women and empathy for females.


The current hip hop culture does more for that than porn will ever do. And it's not like the media isn't literally filled with series for women that paint men as stupid, inadequate, immature and basically useless. Doesn't seem to bother people though? Why the double standard?

It's not like a guy can tell his wife "stop watching that girl series because it portrays men in a bad way" without sounding like a total weak loser. 



> Different porn has effected people differently, porn has never been so much of a problem as it is now, and increasingly so every year, with it being one of the major factors in which couples go to counseling.


Before there was this marriage counseling industry men would go to brothels and have extra-marital affairs left and right with the expectancy that their women would forgive them (and they almost always did). You take away porn and you think that the guys that would naturally resort to it for their satisfaction are just going to happy out? No, they will not. They will resume the behaviors of their grandads. Mark my words, there is no stopping them. Even because these days there is no lack of sexually available females. 

Like i said before, porn is a symptom, not the problem itself. It's a manifestation of unfulfilled desires. It's not an accident that with the improvement of the marriage (through MC or not) that porn consumption diminishes. 




> Brain science of this type is completely theoretical. Even when responses are measured, there is no real conclusion as to cause and effect. One need go no further than Wikipedia to discount theories about mirror neurons in humans, and their purposes. And, if mirror neurors do operate to make a person feel like they are doing what they are watching, why would a person not feel like she is playing football rather than watching. The study you cite showed pictures of naked male and female trunks with signs of arousal to groups of homosexual and heterosexual men and women to measure their responses. Concluding from this study that a man watching porn cannot help but feel that he is involved inthe act that he is watching is one giant leap for mankind. Again - it is an expression of what you want porn to do - not necessarily what porn does (maybe it does, maybe it doesn't).


Oh, not only that. It has been demonstrated without a shadow of doubt that the brain controls the sexual apparatus differently when in a masturbatory act and in real sexual intercourse. Measurements of sperm count differ according to situation. Plus apparently testosterone rises significantly only during real intercourse. 

So, in reality, that whole fear that men are "psychologically there" when they see porn is just not so. Our mind knows the difference between what is fantasy and what is real, even when we don't want it. The masturbatory actions are not a trademark of our species. Plenty of primates do it. This means that our ancestors did it too. Physiologically important to renew sexual cells.


----------



## Cherry

costa200 said:


> .
> 
> And it's not like the media isn't literally filled with series for women that paint men as stupid, inadequate, immature and basically useless. Doesn't seem to bother people though? Why the double standard?
> 
> It's not like a guy can tell his wife "stop watching that girl series because it portrays men in a bad way" without sounding like a total weak loser.
> 
> Before there was this marriage counseling industry men would go to brothels and have extra-marital affairs left and right with the expectancy that their women would forgive them (and they almost always did). You take away porn and you think that the guys that would naturally resort to it for their satisfaction are just going to happy out? No, they will not. They will resume the behaviors of their grandads. Mark my words, there is no stopping them. Even because these days there is no lack of sexually available females.


Two things - Name one popular series on TV today where men are portrayed that way... I must be living under a rock, because I've never seen or heard of a popular series on TV that portrays men as stupid or inadequate. 

And please cite your source for the whole brothel thing... I suspect where brothels are still legal, Nevada, they don't practice marriage counseling, since there's no need for it with the brothels and all. From this link (below), the primary concern behind brothels were STD's and white slavery.

Prostitution in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## costa200

> Two things - Name one popular series on TV today where men are portrayed that way... I must be living under a rock, because I've never seen or heard of a popular series on TV that portrays men as stupid or inadequate.


Come one, seriously? Top of my mind...

The Simpsons
Everybody loves Raymond
King of Queens
Home Improvement
Modern Family

I'm aware that in the US these may not be actually running at the moment, but i think they are current enough to be relevant. Basically every comic sticom of the last 10 years has the dad as some sort of stupid idiot that is completely useless without his wife mothering him. 

And in movies? Since my adored partner has me watching these movies my trouble is finding one where the man is a positive figure instead of a borderline lunatic/moron. 

Be honest with yourself and tell me if these commercials would ever air if the sexes were reversed here:

Funny commercial: cave woman's new dressing... - YouTube

"Trip to Vegas," AT&T Rollover Commercial, Version 1 - YouTube

Domino's 28 Minutes Funny Commercial - YouTube

(the first one on the next)

Male Bashing from BBDO - YouTube!


Men are stupid - YouTube

Polysporin - Canadian National Commercial - YouTube

Recent Roomba advert - YouTube!

Darcy Rose Byrnes - Child Star/Celebrity - Dairy Queen - YouTube


Now...
After laughing your ass out after seeing these brilliant pieces of advertising, tell me that there isn't somewhat of a trend in these. Do you want more examples?

Anyways, to even the score a bit i have one commercial that has stirred some in my home country because it dared to go against the current western femalecracy 

Mónica na Cama e o Rubim Vai Bater ?! - YouTube




> And please cite your source for the whole brothel thing...


Are you kidding? That's like asking for a source that in medieval times knights used swords at the waist. Do i really have to bother?


----------



## Cherry

costa200 said:


> Come one, seriously? Top of my mind...
> 
> The Simpsons
> Everybody loves Raymond
> King of Queens
> Home Improvement
> Modern Family
> 
> I'm aware that in the US these may not be actually running at the moment, but i think they are current enough to be relevant. Basically every comic sticom of the last 10 years has the dad as some sort of stupid idiot that is completely useless without his wife mothering him.
> 
> And in movies? Since my adored partner has me watching these movies my trouble is finding one where the man is a positive figure instead of a borderline lunatic/moron.
> 
> Be honest with yourself and tell me if these commercials would ever air if the sexes were reversed here:
> 
> Funny commercial: cave woman's new dressing... - YouTube
> 
> "Trip to Vegas," AT&T Rollover Commercial, Version 1 - YouTube
> 
> Domino's 28 Minutes Funny Commercial - YouTube
> 
> (the first one on the next)
> 
> Male Bashing from BBDO - YouTube!
> 
> 
> Men are stupid - YouTube
> 
> Polysporin - Canadian National Commercial - YouTube
> 
> Recent Roomba advert - YouTube!
> 
> Darcy Rose Byrnes - Child Star/Celebrity - Dairy Queen - YouTube
> 
> 
> Now...
> After laughing your ass out after seeing these brilliant pieces of advertising, tell me that there isn't somewhat of a trend in these. Do you want more examples?
> 
> Anyways, to even the score a bit i have one commercial that has stirred some in my home country because it dared to go against the current western femalecracy
> 
> Mónica na Cama e o Rubim Vai Bater ?! - YouTube
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you kidding? That's like asking for a source that in medieval times knights used swords at the waist. Do i really have to bother?


Not so sure I see your argument with the sitcoms you listed... Home Improvement? Really? A man is portrayed as stupid? Tim Allen is not portrayed as stupid in that... He is a tool man with a tool show. And his wife is, yes, the more logical one much of the time... So? Aren't women sometimes more logical than men? 

As for the brothel crap, you said that before the MC industry that it was common place for a man to go to a brothel. That's a pretty fvcked up comment and incredibly untrue. And yes, I'm sure you could find sources to find out where the medieval times knights wore their swords. So if what you say is true and that marriage counseling replaced brothels in this country, I'd like to see your source for even coming up with such a ridiculous comment. I shared a source as to what happened to the brothel industry... Had not a thing to do with the marriage counseling industry - It was because of slavery and the spread of STD's.

ETA: I looked at your links to some of those commercials. I'm not so sure I see anything that a man wouldn't really do in real life. And BTW, that insurance commercial would never fly here... That's discrimination. Pretty funny though. But not so sure how it's displaying men being stupid or inadequate. Besides... You haven't had any buddies pull off while you're trying to get in the car on the side of the road? He!! my H did that to me recently. How is that showing men being stupid or inadequate? It's a past time here... Usually makes everyone in the car laugh, the one running for the car or falling for it, yeah, not so much  The caveman one... Not sure you noticed, but the woman in the commercial looked pretty inadequate herself... Acted it too.


----------



## SprucHub

Not to interrupt, but the issue with the brothel thing was in response to the statement that porn is an ever increasing problem. That conclusion, which is likely true, does not mean porn is bad, it means that porn is bad in certain situations. No different than alcohol or junk food. Obesity is a problem, that doesn't mean all people who "use" ice cream have an issue. Like alcohol, some people are either predisposed to addiction or become addicted because they need the crutch. Painting alcohol as the problem removes the individual responsibility element.

The response about men being portrayed on TV as stupid was in response to the discussion of how young men viewing porn will view women. Again, this assumes that young men are too dumb and impressionable to make the determination of how realistic this is. These are the same arguments made against violent video games - young men will become desensitized. Certainly some people are impressionable. We call them morons. If it isn't porn, they'll be caught up by something else. If it is porn, I'd think they'd get the impression that women are pleased by something they do not have (not that women are all slvts, but that women want and are satisfied by hung, built men). After all, what about when a young woman watches and then sees most young men - how will they measure up? Assuming most people are not stupid, we are left with porn only being a problem for people predisposed to having an issue with it or people using it as a crutch.


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## Hope1964

SprucHub said:


> Not to interrupt, but the issue with the brothel thing was in response to the statement that porn is an ever increasing problem. That conclusion, which is likely true, does not mean porn is bad, it means that porn is bad in certain situations. No different than alcohol or junk food. Obesity is a problem, that doesn't mean all people who "use" ice cream have an issue. Like alcohol, some people are either predisposed to addiction or become addicted because they need the crutch. Painting alcohol as the problem removes the individual responsibility element.......Assuming most people are not stupid, we are left with porn only being a problem for people predisposed to having an issue with it or people using it as a crutch.


:iagree:


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## Vizion

oops


----------



## costa200

> Not so sure I see your argument with the sitcoms you listed... Home Improvement? Really? A man is portrayed as stupid? Tim Allen is not portrayed as stupid in that... He is a tool man with a tool show. And his wife is, yes, the more logical one much of the time... So? Aren't women sometimes more logical than men?


Hell yes they can be, the problem is when you look at a wide range of series and all of them show the same thing. A guy as an idiot and his wife running the house, finances and even the husband himself. 



> As for the brothel crap, you said that before the MC industry that it was common place for a man to go to a brothel. That's a pretty fvcked up comment and incredibly untrue. And yes, I'm sure you could find sources to find out where the medieval times knights wore their swords. So if what you say is true and that marriage counseling replaced brothels in this country,


That's not what i said. What i said was that seeing porn is a lighter variation of visiting a brothel, which was the tradition for centuries, and this was before the MC ever came into being. It was customary for fathers to take their sons to get initiated at brothels too. You're not aware of this?

Alright, check here then for the obvious:

Prostitution in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to the 19th century. This is about the United States situation but it was the same all over Europe. 

So, in case i'm making myself misunderstood again, Porn and 19th century brothel visiting is motivated by the same exact urges, the difference being that one is, IMO, much more disgusting and dangerous than the other. This was my point.



> I looked at your links to some of those commercials. I'm not so sure I see anything that a man wouldn't really do in real life. And BTW, that insurance commercial would never fly here... That's discrimination. Pretty funny though. But not so sure how it's displaying men being stupid or inadequate.


Come on now... Portraying men as donkeys? Having them being irresponsible with everything. Calling them naive and stupid? Seriously? Nothing wrong there?



> . You haven't had any buddies pull off while you're trying to get in the car on the side of the road? He!! my H did that to me recently. How is that showing men being stupid or inadequate?


Have you watched that one to the end? The part where they say : "why we insure women only"? 

Seriously? That's normal for you? Then imagine a commercial with a very clear implication that women are stupid and then "why we insure men only"... How about that? Would that fly?



> The caveman one... Not sure you noticed, but the woman in the commercial looked pretty inadequate herself... Acted it too.


I think you kinda missed her facial expression at the end... He was apologizing and in the emotional dog house and she smiled. The meaning is quite clearly that she had played the big dumb male.

Fact is that all these commercials if reversed, implying negative things regarding women, would never pass on TV.


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## *LittleDeer*

costa200 said:


> You know what is degrading for you, personally. Unless you think there are moral absolutes and you're right and whoever doesn't agree is wrong you can't say something is degrading or not.


Again think about what would be degrading for you. It's probably degrading for women too, just widely accepted that she should do it for her man. 



> Something can be degrading and unacceptable for a person and perfectly ok, even highly desirable, for another.


Most women who have been in the porn industry, once out of it will tell you it was very degrading. 




> Have you ever thought why that is? Why does the porn industry uses that general script? They don't seem to have an agenda other than making money, so why do they do this instead of portraying different ways of human connection?


The porn industry is largely based around degrading women and treating them as sexual objects only, I suspect that if men had to view the women as real human beings it wouldn't be as easy to use them as sexual commodities. Sad stuff.






> Porn isn't a way to connect. If a couple is looking to connect through porn then they are screwed. Porn is used by some couples to get ideas of situations to try and to increase sexual excitement.


That's my point, it doesn't help people connect.
And seriously if you are learning about sex through porn I feel sorry for you. There are lots of other ways to learn about sexual positions etc. Also imaginations, flirting and and being really connected enough to be open with each other, will get you more sexual full fillment then porn. Moreover you aren't increasing the sexual excitement between the 2 of you if you use porn, you are getting sexually excited about someone else. How sad that people can't excite each other. 




> And it is true, even for women. This may be shocking to hear but studies of eye movements when two strangers meet indicate a few seconds of physical evaluations that is eminently directed at sexual evaluation. Apparently our brains can decide, within seconds, if the stranger is a viable sexual partner.
> 
> It's a preliminary evaluation. Men are just more aware that they do it, or more open to talk about it.


Actually there is a difference between finding someone attractive and automatically thinking about if you would f%^& them.





> Skewed view. Unattractive males get reduced to nothings like that too. Have you ever been to a club? Unless they are inventive and get other stuff working for them (displays of wealth and social prominence) they aren't given the time of day.


Not true, there are plenty of unattractive men in prominent positions, and I don't think it doesn't effect them, but studies show an unattractive female is far more likely to end up with the short end of the stick in life, so to speak then a man.



> Maybe in an ideal pink world people would choose their mates for they inherent personality qualities. But this is a biologically driven situation.


I don't doubt that we have to find our mates attractive. That's not what we are talking about. Studies show more and more, women are judged ever harshly on whether or not they are f&^%able. It's getting worse every year, the pressure for women to look a certain way.





> The current hip hop culture does more for that than porn will ever do. And it's not like the media isn't literally filled with series for women that paint men as stupid, inadequate, immature and basically useless. Doesn't seem to bother people though? Why the double standard?


Actually it does bother me just as much. I see it is a very much the same thing which a lot of hip hop clips and songs being pornographic. I'm not sure why you bought that up, but it's just as alarming to me.



> It's not like a guy can tell his wife "stop watching that girl series because it portrays men in a bad way" without sounding like a total weak loser.


There are just as many TV shows with bimbos in the them. 
Married with children, 2 and half men, I could go on. I don't think those stereotypes do help any one, and I don't watch them. It's still not porn and doesn't effect the brain in the same, if you read and watched the things I posted all of the reasons why are in there.





> Before there was this marriage counseling industry men would go to brothels and have extra-marital affairs left and right with the expectancy that their women would forgive them (and they almost always did). You take away porn and you think that the guys that would naturally resort to it for their satisfaction are just going to happy out? No, they will not. They will resume the behaviors of their grandads. Mark my words, there is no stopping them. Even because these days there is no lack of sexually available females.


Where are the stats on how many men used prostitutes? Moreover even if more men did then they do today, does that make it healthy or right? I'm not sure what your point is?:scratchhead:
People could legally beat their wives too, and children, and rape their wives. That doesn't make it right, Ok or good for marriages. It might show we have a come a little way, but obviously still not far enough, because apparently commodification of women and prostitution on film and going outside your marriage is still Ok, so long as their is no physical touching. Yuck. I don't think so. I don't want my husband supporting prostitution in way. I want him to allways treat women with respect, not just when it suits him, and to allways put our relationship first.



> Like i said before, porn is a symptom, not the problem itself. It's a manifestation of unfulfilled desires. It's not an accident that with the improvement of the marriage (through MC or not) that porn consumption diminishes.


So is cheating. Doesn't make it OK. And cheating and porn use aren't from unfullfilled desires, they may be a symptom of other problems, but they are still a choice of the person partaking in them. If my marriage has problems, that doesn't make it ok to go outside it. A lot of men who view a lot of porn didn't say they did because of unfullfilled desires, they said they did it because it was quick and easy. That's called selfishness. And even if it was because of un fullfilled desires, so what. omen have them too, should she be able to go outside the marriage to have her emotional desires fullfilled, as long as she never met up with the man and there was no physical touching?




> Oh, not only that. It has been demonstrated without a shadow of doubt that the brain controls the sexual apparatus differently when in a masturbatory act and in real sexual intercourse. Measurements of sperm count differ according to situation. Plus apparently testosterone rises significantly only during real intercourse.


Did they measure men masturbating to internet porn, pictures, or just masturbating? Also yes I imagine your levels would rise more with a real person, that still doesn't change the way the brain works and mirror neurons.



> So, in reality, that whole fear that men are "psychologically there" when they see porn is just not so. Our mind knows the difference between what is fantasy and what is real, even when we don't want it. The masturbatory actions are not a trademark of our species. Plenty of primates do it. This means that our ancestors did it too. Physiologically important to renew sexual cells


.
Not true. Men often will say they use images they have sen in porn in their minds when they are with their wives, and some can't get off without doing so. Yes we all still know it's a fantasy, but your brain is stimulated and reacts as if you were there and want to have sex, that's how you become aroused. You are thinking about having sex with someone else. 

Masturbation is healthy and normal and has nothing to do with what I'm saying. Porn is not healthy. There is a difference.


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## Hope1964

It's hard to understand how something that SO MANY males do isn't 'normal'. I guess that depends on your definition of normal then.


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## *LittleDeer*

SprucHub said:


> Not to interrupt, but the issue with the brothel thing was in response to the statement that porn is an ever increasing problem. That conclusion, which is likely true, does not mean porn is bad, it means that porn is bad in certain situations. No different than alcohol or junk food. Obesity is a problem, that doesn't mean all people who "use" ice cream have an issue. Like alcohol, some people are either predisposed to addiction or become addicted because they need the crutch. Painting alcohol as the problem removes the individual responsibility element.


I provided plenty of links to show that porn does in fact influence society, and the way we think about women, and sex. It is like anything in society the media and popular culture. Particularly if we are saturated with something. it changes the way we operate, it changes our brains. If these things didn't influence us there would be no advertising etc. Companies don't spend billions on advertising because it doesn't work. that would be ridiculous.
When people are willingly downloading and watching porn, (more then they are hollywood movies) the language action, scripts etc in those movies are going to effect the way we do things. 
I posted a link explaining how it is drastically influencing harming and changing the sexuality of young people. because unlike my generation they are getting their sex ed from hardcore never ending internet porn. 



> The response about men being portrayed on TV as stupid was in response to the discussion of how young men viewing porn will view women. Again, this assumes that young men are too dumb and impressionable to make the determination of how realistic this is. These are the same arguments made against violent video games - young men will become desensitized. Certainly some people are impressionable. We call them morons. If it isn't porn, they'll be caught up by something else. If it is porn, I'd think they'd get the impression that women are pleased by something they do not have (not that women are all slvts, but that women want and are satisfied by hung, built men). After all, what about when a young woman watches and then sees most young men - how will they measure up? Assuming most people are not stupid, we are left with porn only being a problem for people predisposed to having an issue with it or people using it as a crutch.


There is plenty of evidence that movies, video games and porn are changing helping to shape our world. Studies show it does teaches young people to have less empathy for others etc. this is a real concern. Again it's like the advertising, except it's every where and hard to escape. to ignore that, to me is very dangerous and to bury our heads in the sand.
I have seen plenty of studies that showed, exposing people toviolent video games and or movies etc, then showing them real violence and the ones who hadn't just been exposed to the violent videos and games, had much more empathy for people being harmed IRL. That to me is very alarming.* It doesn't make them stupid, it makes them human and susceptible to suggestion and societal influence like everyone else on the planet.*

Society doesn't shape itself, a child isn't born predestined for anything. they are a blank slate and everything that happens to them, everything they see and hear and experience, changes and shapes who they become and it's a continual life long process. If these things didn't change us and shape us, everyone from every society with or without internet and television would be the same the world over.

I know when I was younger there were not very many young boys and girls too speaking openly about women, sex and using the degrading language they do now. Our society has been pornified.


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## *LittleDeer*

Hope1964 said:


> It's hard to understand how something that SO MANY males do isn't 'normal'. I guess that depends on your definition of normal then.


Ok maybe I worded in wrongly, because it is a norm, and I usually say that.
Many things are a norm. It doesn't make them good or right.

in other cultures child brides are normal. Sex slaves are normal. Abuse against women is normal, and on and on.

I see porn as a severe injustice against women and sexual connection and marriages. But just because it's a norm it's justified. surely as a society we are more advanced then that.

Porn is just difficult, because people think you are attacking them and their sexuality, when you have evidence to show how harmful it is. It doesn't make any one a perv etc, we have all viewed it. But if we have knowledge about what it can do to our brains, our young people, how much trouble it causes in marriages etc, then we can choose to not view it, to become aware, rather then to ignore for our own selfish sexual gratification.

No one has to use porn, much like no one has to cheat. I could say, well almost 50% of women cheat, so it's ok for me to do so as I probably can't help it, and people have all ways been doing it, and I'm biologically programmed to to want sex with certain types of men and bla bla bla. But at the end of the day, I am the one who chooses my behaviour.


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## Cherry

costa200 said:


> Hell yes they can be, the problem is when you look at a wide range of series and all of them show the same thing. A guy as an idiot and his wife running the house, finances and even the husband himself.
> 
> 
> 
> That's not what i said. What i said was that seeing porn is a lighter variation of visiting a brothel, which was the tradition for centuries, and this was before the MC ever came into being. It was customary for fathers to take their sons to get initiated at brothels too. You're not aware of this?
> 
> Alright, check here then for the obvious:
> 
> Prostitution in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Jump to the 19th century. This is about the United States situation but it was the same all over Europe.
> 
> So, in case i'm making myself misunderstood again, Porn and 19th century brothel visiting is motivated by the same exact urges, the difference being that one is, IMO, much more disgusting and dangerous than the other. This was my point.
> 
> 
> 
> Come on now... Portraying men as donkeys? Having them being irresponsible with everything. Calling them naive and stupid? Seriously? Nothing wrong there?
> 
> 
> 
> Have you watched that one to the end? The part where they say : "why we insure women only"?
> 
> Seriously? That's normal for you? Then imagine a commercial with a very clear implication that women are stupid and then "why we insure men only"... How about that? Would that fly?
> 
> 
> 
> I think you kinda missed her facial expression at the end... He was apologizing and in the emotional dog house and she smiled. The meaning is quite clearly that she had played the big dumb male.
> 
> Fact is that all these commercials if reversed, implying negative things regarding women, would never pass on TV.


Let's just agree to disagree on the content of the series/commercials you linked to, mkay? . I just don't see it, sorry. But I would like to point out that I've never seen the commercials I clicked on... I didn't notice if those are real commercials that have aired in the US. One commercial you shouldve linked to is Bob and cialis (sp?... It's an erectile dysfunction med)... Bob is portrayed as an idiot IMO.... Bet you can search for it on YouTube.


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## costa200

> Again think about what would be degrading for you. It's probably degrading for women too, just widely accepted that she should do it for her man.


Again, my standard or yours doesn't apply to everyone. Human sexuality has a range of variety. Real example:

For me getting wiped by a woman using high heels would be "degrading" and humiliating. Yet there are some guy who actually pay for that kind of stuff 



> Most women who have been in the porn industry, once out of it will tell you it was very degrading.


Actually no. Not most. In fact the ex-porn stars that do this turning of the table are so few in between that they get a huge spotlight on them. Usually happens when they can't find work no more (old age, fading beauty, weight gain). And you may also find that hypocritically some of them put on this show in an attempt to merchandise more because their name is thrown to the stars when they go to TV shows to talk about this.

Where was all that indignation before? They didn't like their job? Well, that describes almost the entire human population. Yet they remained due to huge amounts of money. Quite bluntly they could never expect to make that money anywhere else. They make more money than most college grads. 



> The porn industry is largely based around degrading women and treating them as sexual objects only, I suspect that if men had to view the women as real human beings it wouldn't be as easy to use them as sexual commodities. Sad stuff.


You're totally wrong here... You give the porn industry way too much credit. They are only interested in making money. The reason why women are shown in porn the way they do is that women don't behave like this at all. In porn the woman is willing and the man has all the control. She doesn't set conditions, she has no expectations, she just wants to have sex with a guy. In whatever way he wants her.

THIS is what makes married guys watch it and, in some cases, consider it more satisfying than real marital sex. In real life these guys have to deal with a relationship, expectations, conditions on sex and 9/10 the woman controls everything. What gets done, how it is done, at what time, how often, what he has to do/achieve in order to get some etc...

Compared to that porn is just so easy! That's the real thing about that degradation of women. Believe me, if most men were into seeing women whipping men that would be mainstream porn. 




> That's my point, it doesn't help people connect.
> And seriously if you are learning about sex through porn I feel sorry for you.


Me personally, i learned very little with porn. Didn't lack willing women to try out stuff. But not everyone pulls that off. But don't you say you can't learn a thing or two from it, you would be lying and you know it. 



> Actually there is a difference between finding someone attractive and automatically thinking about if you would f%^& them.


Don't know about you but for me and the generality of men i believe one thing doesn't go without the other, unless you're imprinting some rationalizations over it.

In fact i would even say that you're playing with words in an effort of sublimation. Attractive and f***able is basically the same thing, don't kid yourself.



> Not true, there are plenty of unattractive men in prominent positions, and I don't think it doesn't effect them, but studies show an unattractive female is far more likely to end up with the short end of the stick in life, so to speak then a man.


Yes, because men don't care much about social prominence and resources like women do. That leaves her looks and personality. With strong emphasis on looks. Rough, but real.



> I don't doubt that we have to find out mates attractive. That's not what we are talking about. Studies show more and more, women are judged ever harshly on whether or not they are f&^%able. It's getting worse every year, the pressure for women to look a certain way.


That pressure always existed. It isn't getting worse. Women of the victorian age often fainted due to their underwear being too tight. Because their body shape had to be a certain way. In traditional China women had their feet bandaged in order to shrink them (apparently the beauty standard required small feet). And what to say about this:










And the funny thing is that it isn't the males pushing for this. It's the women pushing each other. If we were pea****s the women would have the tails. And how women love them tails...

Regarding this porn is fairly innocent. Except on that epidemics about silicone breasts. That is mainly porn... Nasty stuff too.




> Where are the stats on ho many men used prostitutes?


See the link here:

Prostitution in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A very telling passage is this:



> Over 200 brothels existed in lower Manhattan. Prostitution was illegal under the vagrancy laws, but was not well-enforced by police and city officials, who were bribed by brothel owners and madams. Attempts to regulate prostitution were struck down on grounds that it is against the public good. Seventy-five percent of New York men had some type of sexually transmitted disease.[1]


Lower Manhatan is a small area and 200 brothels (and i'm presuming not counting independent hookers). And 75% of men is a lot, don't you agree?


And this:



> Nevertheless, prostitution continued to grow rapidly in the US, becoming a 6.3 million-dollar business in 1858, more than the shipping and brewing industries combined.


How about them economics?

Clearly, brothels have totally declined since then. In this aspect we have made improvements. 




> People could legally beat their wives too, and children, and rape their wives. That doesn't make it right, Ok or good for marriages.


Never said it was.



> It might show we have a come a little way, but obviously still not far enough, because apparently commodification of women and prostitution on film and going outside your marriage is still Ok, so long as their is no physical touching. Yuck. I don't think so. I don't want my husband supporting prostitution in way. I want him to allways treat women with respect, not just when it suits him, and to allways put our relationship first.


And that's fine if he goes along with that. Very healthy indeed. The problem is that some guys won't live like that. That places a terrible marriage situation. And it begs the question if looking at porn is motive for a divorce. And then it really depends on the couple itself. 



> A lot of men who view a lot of porn didn't say they did because of unfullfilled desires, they said they did it because it was quick and easy.


Yes... See above... You have men telling you what's up. But also be aware that a guy who is caught looking at big breasted women will NOT tell his wife he looks at them because her breasts are small. So... quick and easy is... quicker and easier to say. 



> That's called selfishness.


Depends on what drove them to it. If a woman is withholding sex and she caughts her man relieving himself with porn i don't think she can argue much about him being selfish on this point. They are demonstrating equally selfish behaviors. 



> Did they measure men masturbating to internet porn, pictures, or just masturbating?


The guys were college students and i think they did it at a sperm bank for analysis. That means they were given mags and videos. If they used it or not i cannot say. 



> that still doesn't change the way the brain works and mirror neurons.


Yeah... The problem is we don't actually know how much of our brain does much of what it does. What we can analyze is behavior and physiologically measurable parameters. We can be here rationalizing how a human brain does stuff but when it comes down to it different humans don't act the same. Some guys will get angry over nothing, other allow people to walk all over them.

Until we have the workings pinned down i'm taking that pseudoscience part of neuroscience with a grain of salt. That's what i learned being a biology major. A lot of people like to use format words like "mirror neurons" and making inferences on the "how" without actually putting the needed testing in paper.





> Not true. Men often will say they use images they have sen in porn in their minds when they are with their wives, and some can't get off without doing so.


They also use that hot neighbor too. Your sister, your best friend, that hot co-worker. Point being? Is that preferable to some anonymous pornstar? Really? 

What i'm getting here is that you expect a husband to always be thinking of you and only you when you have sex. 100% that, correct? Well, i would find it incredible that a guy never thinks about someone else while he is doing it. 

It may sound callous, even hurtful, but that's just the way it is. Of course, if you run to your hubbies right now and ask them they will assure you that they only think of you, always you and nobody else... And that would be almost surely a lie. 

More than that, there are plenty of women that confess to do the same thing. Sexual excitement and pink versions of human sexuality usually don't go well together. 



> Masturbation is healthy and normal and has nothing to do with what I'm saying. Porn is not healthy and normal.


So, if you ever caught your husband masturbating to porn you would be mad but if he just had his eyes closed and thinking about that hot neighbor that would then be "normal"? I think you got me lost then.




> It's hard to understand how something that SO MANY males do isn't 'normal'. I guess that depends on your definition of normal then.


People have a skewed vision of "normality". Instead of normality being the mathematical function of "norm" they understand normality as some sort of moral center made up by them.


----------



## SprucHub

*LittleDeer* said:


> Ok maybe I worded in wrongly, because it is a norm, and I usually say that.
> Many things are a norm. It doesn't make them good or right.
> 
> in other cultures child brides are normal. Sex slaves are normal. Abuse against women is normal, and on and on.
> 
> I see porn as a severe injustice against women and sexual connection and marriages. But just because it's a norm it's justified. surely as a society we are more advanced then that.
> 
> Porn is just difficult, because people think you are attacking them and their sexuality, when you have evidence to show how harmful it is. It doesn't make any one a perv etc, we have all viewed it. But if we have knowledge about what it can do to our brains, our young people, how much trouble it causes in marriages etc, then we can choose to not view it, to become aware, rather then to ignore for our own selfish sexual gratification.
> 
> No one has to use porn, much like no one has to cheat. I could say, well almost 50% of women cheat, so it's ok for me to do so as I probably can't help it, and people have all ways been doing it, and I'm biologically programmed to to want sex with certain types of men and bla bla bla. But at the end of the day, I am the one who chooses my behaviour.


What about gay porn. Plenty of it out there. How is it degrading to women? Men in those videos do the same things women in hetero porn do. Is it degrading to men?

And what about porn put out by couples? Or just videos of masturbation?

Many people like to watch people they find attractive have sex. That is why porn is popular and the "norm." 

You say you choose your behavior, but don't think a porn watcher can? Why is it different than alcohol, which can be bad, affects your brain, can affect your relationships, etc. Difference being you can drive after watching porn.

And, there is barely a conclusion out there as to how a human brain really functions. Concluding that porn warps a brain is misleading and misinterpreting the information out there. There is no accepted conclusion about the function of mirror neurons in humans, let alone how the interactions of porn and mirror neurons is adverse.

Personally, I am indifferent to porn (think it is better than real housewives, not as good as iron chef). My wife thinks it's cheating, so I avoid it. You hate it. You are looking for reasons why it is bad. But there is no way to prove something like that, just conjecture. Obviously, some people will be adversely affected by viewing it. That is no reason to think everyone will be and that it doesn't have its place in the entertainment spectrum.


I think it is in most instances a stimulant, like a drug, that facilitates masturbation or stimulates a libido. Most users can leave it if they needed to and care as much about themselves, their spouses and families as people who do not use it. Some will be addicted to its effects. I think it is possible that it saves as many marriages as it ruins. Many women go through prolongued periods (months/years), particularly after childbirth where sex is not a priority, or simply do not want sex as often as their husbands. Porn can distract from that missing sexual attention that men need. Porn may tide couples over during these periods in a way that a man staring into a bathroom sink while tugging at himself would not be distracted.

I am not saying that you should like porn. Just that your arguments for why it is bad for everyone are not convincing.


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## *LittleDeer*

costa200 said:


> Again, my standard or yours doesn't apply to everyone. Human sexuality has a range of variety. Real example:
> 
> For me getting wiped by a woman using high heels would be "degrading" and humiliating. Yet there are some guy who actually pay for that kind of stuff


Yes and if you study sexuality, you will find most of those that partake in it, still feel degraded and humiliated. They want that feeling, it comes from somewhere.
ask your self why do women and girls want to be degraded and humiliated (be in porn movies?). Often it's because they have been abused or been fed a steady diet of degradation and humiliation, so it's a sexual norm for them, and many feel they need it to get off. I'm no exception, it excites me, it's designed to do. That doesn't make it healthy or good.





> Actually no. Not most. In fact the ex-porn stars that do this turning of the table are so few in between that they get a huge spotlight on them. Usually happens when they can't find work no more (old age, fading beauty, weight gain). And you may also find that hypocritically some of them put on this show in an attempt to merchandise more because their name is thrown to the stars when they go to TV shows to talk about this.


Wrong, I have in fact studied this subject extensively. Most women in porn make on or two movies maximum. those that do stay usually stay because they feel they don't have many options. Porn stars do not make much at all, only usually a few thousand $ sometimes around $5 thousand if they are lucky. They get the most for their first movie and then they are considered old used goods, so if they want to continue are strongly coerced into doing stronger more hardcore stuff, DP,anal etc. 
The big $ are made by the producers etc. These people are very exploited.
Most don't want to talk abou the experience, because it was vile to them and they are ashamed. Most are called names like s(uts, and most people say things like "Well you chose to go into it" not really understanding the social context in which this path was "chosen".



> Where was all that indignation before? They didn't like their job? Well, that describes almost the entire human population. Yet they remained due to huge amounts of money. Quite bluntly they could never expect to make that money anywhere else. They make more money than most college grads.


Really? I'm astounded that you believe that. Only very few very famous popular porn stars make pig money and that is usually by producing and having control of their own stuff.

Most make very little.



> You're totally wrong here... You give the porn industry way too much credit. They are only interested in making money. The reason why women are shown in porn the way they do is that women don't behave like this at all. In porn the woman is willing and the man has all the control. She doesn't set conditions, she has no expectations, she just wants to have sex with a guy. In whatever way he wants her.


I don't think i'm totally wrong, but how is that good? what you are saying is that it's attractive, because the women get treated as sub human, and you get off on that.
I like to think that as human beings we can all see that that's a terrible way to view one another.



> THIS is what makes married guys watch it and, in some cases, consider it more satisfying than real marital sex. In real life these guys have to deal with a relationship, expectations, conditions on sex and 9/10 the woman controls everything. What gets done, how it is done, at what time, how often, what he has to do/achieve in order to get some etc...


Oh no how terrible, to have to interact and have real relationships and actually connect with someone to have sex.
Seriously and some men wonder why their wives don't want sex. Yuck.
My OH gets all the sex he wants anytime, but he does love me, shows lots of affection, cares for me and meets my needs and I him. And neither of us finds it hard. Fancy that.



> Compared to that porn is just so easy! That's the real thing about that degradation of women. Believe me, if most men were into seeing women whipping men that would be mainstream porn.


We are not socially conditioned that way. some men and women do enjoy that, and porn that degrades men, still not OK.





> Me personally, i learned very little with porn. Didn't lack willing women to try out stuff. But not everyone pulls that off. But don't you say you can't learn a thing or two from it, you would be lying and you know it.


Porn sex is about the worst sex you could have with someone. If you had great sex with someone it's easy to know why. I call great sex, when both people are mutually satisfied, not one person allways satisfying the other.



> Don't know about you but for me and the generality of men i believe one thing doesn't go without the other, unless you're imprinting some rationalizations over it.
> 
> In fact i would even say that you're playing with words in an effort of sublimation. Attractive and f***able is basically the same thing, don't kid yourself.


This has been talked about on here before, don't insult me and other people, some incuded by suggesting when we meet someone attractive we think about sex with them. because not everyone does. it's a choice.



> Yes, because men don't care much about social prominence and resources like women do. That leaves her looks and personality. With strong emphasis on looks. Rough, but real.


I'm talking about job positions etc.




> That pressure always existed. It isn't getting worse. Women of the victorian age often fainted due to their underwear being too tight. Because their body shape had to be a certain way. In traditional China women had their feet bandaged in order to shrink them (apparently the beauty standard required small feet). And what to say about this:


Studies show every year due to media influence that women and young (younger and younger) girls feel more and more pressure to look a certain way. More then ever before.
Just google the topic. 



> And the funny thing is that it isn't the males pushing for this. It's the women pushing each other. If we were pea****s the women would have the tails. And how women love them tails...


Oh yes you are right, men don't have the majority of the world power or produce and own most pornography and media. 



> Regarding this porn is fairly innocent. Except on that epidemics about silicone breasts. That is mainly porn... Nasty stuff too.


Increasing amounts of women wanting labioplasty, oh and young men being suprised when they find out what a real vagina looks like, as they have never seen one that wasn't modified in porn.










> Lower Manhatan is a small area and 200 brothels (and i'm presuming not counting independent hookers). And 75% of men is a lot, don't you agree?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly, brothels have totally declined since then. In this aspect we have made improvements.


:scratchhead: feel like facepalming.
Why does it matter if 100% of men used to go to brothels?
Many people do things because it's allowed and excused and many of those things are abhorent. 




> And that's fine if he goes along with that. Very healthy indeed. The problem is that some guys won't live like that. That places a terrible marriage situation. And it begs the question if looking at porn is motive for a divorce. And then it really depends on the couple itself.


I consider them men who care only for their own selfish needs. I wouldn't want to be married to someone like that. 
If a guy cares more about his desire to masturbate over filmed prostitution of somelikely underage girl then he does about how his wife feels and how porn can effect his marriage then he's very indulging, and probably gets his justifcation from other people who say "Oh but he's a guy, he can't help it". Spare me. I know lots of men who care about women more then that and who are smart enough to know they have a choice. 



> Yes... See above... You have men telling you what's up. But also be aware that a guy who is caught looking at big breasted women will NOT tell his wife he looks at them because her breasts are small. So... quick and easy is... quicker and easier to say.


And you have women who are having EA's that turn into affairs too. They won't tell either, doesn't make it OK. Doesn't make it right. Doesn't help a marriage.



> Depends on what drove them to it. If a woman is withholding sex and she caughts her man relieving himself with porn i don't think she can argue much about him being selfish on this point. They are demonstrating equally selfish behaviors.


 Just like an EA. i mean if he's not meeting her emotional needs she can't help it can she. 
Or can they? Oh yes they can. they can focus on their marriage. And if that doesn't work move on.




> Yeah... The problem is we don't actually know how much of our brain does much of what it does. What we can analyze is behavior and physiologically measurable parameters. We can be here rationalizing how a human brain does stuff but when it comes down to it different humans don't act the same. Some guys will get angry over nothing, other allow people to walk all over them.


theres plenty of evidence of the harm porn does to the brain. If you want to read it and really look at the evidence and not gloss over it to justify your own gratification.



> Until we have the workings pinned down i'm taking that pseudoscience part of neuroscience with a grain of salt. That's what i learned being a biology major. A lot of people like to use format words like "mirror neurons" and making inferences on the "how" without actually putting the needed testing in paper.


 Again easy to dismiss any evidence that shows how harmful it is, and bury your head in the sand, so you can jerk off guilt free.

Personally I can't do that. I have empathy for other people, particularly the women in porn videos, and i won't use other people like that. 





> They also use that hot neighbor too. Your sister, your best friend, that hot co-worker. Point being? Is that preferable to some anonymous pornstar? Really?
> 
> What i'm getting here is that you expect a husband to always be thinking of you and only you when you have sex. 100% that, correct? Well, i would find it incredible that a guy never thinks about someone else while he is doing it.
> 
> It may sound callous, even hurtful, but that's just the way it is. Of course, if you run to your hubbies right now and ask them they will assure you that they only think of you, always you and nobody else... And that would be almost surely a lie.


I love how you speak for men like that. I'm not doubting that a lot of men and women do that stuff. I've done it in the past too. and it was unhealthy, it was bad. I wasn't in the moment with my partner. I wasn't connecting. that's a crappy thing to do to someone you love, when they are at their most vulnerable with you. JMO. So I choose not to do it. 



> More than that, there are plenty of women that confess to do the same thing. Sexual excitement and pink versions of human sexuality usually don't go well together.


Because in the last 30 years more then ever before we have been conditioned to never be satisfied, to all ways be looking at others for sexual gratification, we've been taught to use people and commodify them as a norm. I'm just not OK with that. I don't think it's helped society.




> So, if you ever caught your husband masturbating to porn you would be mad but if he just had his eyes closed and thinking about that hot neighbor that would then be "normal"? I think you got me lost then.


I wouldn't just be mad, I'd leave. No that's not Ok either. He doesn't really need to masturbate, we have sex whenever he wants. 


Porn is using another person, filmed prostitution to get off. I don't see how that's ok.

I don't see how they treat women in the porn industry as Ok. 

I know you will keep trying to spin it and spin it no matter what I post.

But I sleep well at night knowing that I'm an ethical person, and I know when I'm making a mistake and doing something that can harm the person I love and others. I choose not to partake in that. My orgasm is not more important then other peoples lives, or my partners trust and love.

Anything that hurts my partner is out, I just don't do. I love him.

The end.


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## anonim

what it comes down to is some people like porn.

some people dont.

saying that 'porn is bad' (or good even) because you dont (or do) like it is whats known as An Opinion.

pseudoscience does not make an opinion into a fact. Feeling strongly about it doesnt make it an opinion into a fact.

I like looking at porn. As long as all people involved are doing so willingly, having fun, and no one is being hurt (against their will) there is no harm in it.

And I will agree with your feelings about any porn where people (not just women) are exploited and degraded. I will not watch these.

If you like looking at porn, its not wrong to do so. If you dont like looking at porn its right not to look at it.

its wrong for me, to tell another they should like or look at porn because I like it, just as it is wrong for someone else to tell me I shouldnt like or look at porn because they dont like it.

same with the pro life/pro choice, pro gay marriage/anti gay marriage, pro mixing races/anti mixing races.
If you dont like it, dont do it. You dont have the right to tell others not to.


@LD you focus exclusively on women in porn, what about men? are they affected in the same way you say all women are? I think ANYONE in a porn movie is sexually objectified. Not just men, not just women.

and sometimes people want to be sexually objectified. refute this at your peril.

What do you say to women that watch porn? people that watch gay porn? actors that star in gay porn? Men in straight porn?


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## Cherry

costa200 said:


> And what to say about this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the funny thing is that it isn't the males pushing for this. It's the women pushing each other. If we were pea****s the women would have the tails. And how women love them tails...


You're stating that as fact which is untrue... Here's a link on that tribe that still practices that. There are many different accounts as to why the Padaung practice it, and yes, one "myth" is that they do it for beauty, however, another "myth" is that they do it to make the women unattractive. I think the saddest thing is that if a woman is found to commit adultery, her brass rings are removed and she is forced to lay down for the rest of her life because her neck bones have been reformed from wearing these things since toddler age... I wonder if her fellow women implemented that form of punishment. 

Just thought I'd share... 

Indigenous Peoples of the World - The Karen


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## momtwo4

_*"I know you will keep trying to spin it and spin it no matter what I post.

But I sleep well at night knowing that I'm an ethical person, and I know when I'm making a mistake and doing something that can harm the person I love and others. I choose not to partake in that. My orgasm is not more important then other peoples lives, or my partners trust and love.

Anything that hurts my partner is out, I just don't do. I love him.*_

The end."

I just wanted to say that I really appreciated what you had to say. I can see that you feel very strongly about pornography, and I do as well. Pornography objectifies and degrades women. I think men who watch it should ask themselves if they would like their daughters to engage in pornography. If not, why not???


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## moco82

momtwo4, I have a son and I'm not immediately repelled by the idea of his becoming a porn actor. Depends too much on the actual work, like in any other job. In most cases it would be better than cleaning sewers.

Or, in your opinion, no porn can ever objectify a male actor?


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## momtwo4

moco82 said:


> momtwo4, I have a son and I'm not immediately repelled by the idea of his becoming a porn actor. Depends too much on the actual work, like in any other job. In most cases it would be better than cleaning sewers.
> 
> Or, in your opinion, no porn can ever objectify a male actor?


No, porn definitely can objectify a male "actor" (not sure if that is what I would call him) as well. I have three sons and one daughter, and I would be repelled by ANY of them becoming porn "actors." I want more for them than that. I think most parents would. Have you ever heard someone say, "ya know, I really want little Johnny to grow up and be a porn star." Or "Wow. Susie would be such a successful porn actress. So many men would love "getting off" while looking at her when she grows up." 

I don't think so.


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## moco82

momtwo4, those are separate lines of argument (children's employment and a perceived attribute of porn).

What is your view of the circus?


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## momtwo4

moco82 said:


> momtwo4, those are separate lines of argument (children's employment and a perceived attribute of porn).
> 
> What is your view of the circus?


How are these separate lines of argument? I'm saying that most parents would not want their children when adults to become porn stars. There is a reason for this. I was using this scenario to illustrate a point: _porn is degrading and it objectifies individuals._

I think it is pretty apparent what my view of the "porn circus" is.

And I would still really like to hear your view on whether or not most parents would not want to see a son or daughter become a porn actor when an adult.


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## moco82

I was asking about the family-friendly variety of circus.

Most parents would not want their children to be porn actors, sewer cleaners, garbage collectors, strippers, recycling sorters, miners, and members of many, many more professions.

I don't understand how porn is degrading or objectifying, though, without resorting to the metaphysical like a previous poster (e. g., that it re-wires brains). I can see how some acts portrayed in porn would be degrading as a subjective perception by certain people, but not the validity of the blanket statement that it is intrinsically under all circumstances. A subjective judgment of it should not be depicted as a cold fact.


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## Hope1964

What we need is 'organic' porn. Porn made with mature actors who aren't drugged or forced, who *gasp* maybe even enjoy doing it????


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## momtwo4

moco82 said:


> I was asking about the family-friendly variety of circus.
> 
> Most parents would not want their children to be porn actors, sewer cleaners, garbage collectors, strippers, recycling sorters, miners, and members of many, many more professions.


I don't think you can put garbage collectors and miners in the same category as strippers and porn actors. When is the last time you saw someone "getting off" while watching a garbage collector (wait! I'm sure there is some sort of porn act showing that!)?


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## Davelli0331

Porn is a hotly debated topic because it has very little middle ground, or if it does, it's a very under-represented middle ground. I think that unfortunately the extreme views are also the most vocal, so any thread on porn turns into this ridiculous debate where people are trying to pick apart each and every syllable from another post with which they disagree.

I think porn affects each gender very differently bc it taps into very deep, primal instincts for that gender. Because men have been the purveyors of it for so long, it's an industry specifically targeted at men. That's why most of the women in porn tend to skew toward caricatures of whatever the contemporary definition of beauty is at the time. Men see these women with idealized bodies pretending to enjoy all this sex, and it taps into that masculine drive to conquer, to bed beautiful women, etc. No wonder then that some men allow it to warp their sense of real-world human sexuality.

I think it taps into a much different, but still primal spot in woman. Many women I think view it on some level as a threat to their relationship. For many women, esp those whose husbands have an *actual addiction*, it most certainly is a threat to their relationship. But I think for many other women it's simply the fact that their husbands are watching women who are better looking than they are doing things that they would never do with their husbands that drives that feeling of being threatened. That sense that it's something they could or would never live up to.

Added on top of all that is the various social stigmas associated with sex, gender roles, nudity, and the like. And if you throw religion in there, with its built-in intolerance for anything outside the scope of its teachings, that adds another layer of complexity to it.

Mix all that stuff together and you get lots of opinions and viewpoints that are probably just as muddled and complex as a person's individual sexuality, but with the unyielding extreme of viewpoints one often finds in politics or religion.


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## moco82

Hope1964 said:


> What we need is 'organic' porn. Porn made with mature actors who aren't drugged or forced, who *gasp* maybe even enjoy doing it????


Plenty of home tapes online  The ethical problem there is that we have no way of knowing whether both parties consented to their release, though.


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## moco82

momtwo4 said:


> I don't think you can put garbage collectors and miners in the same category as strippers and porn actors. When is the last time you saw someone "getting off" while watching a garbage collector (wait! I'm sure there is some sort of porn act showing that!)?


All those are in the category of jobs not desirable by parents for their children, and following your logic signal something intrinsically wrong with them.

Women may be getting off to garbage collectors, who are generally in good shape! What about pool boys, is that a degrading job, then?


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## Cherry

Hope1964 said:


> What we need is 'organic' porn. Porn made with mature actors who aren't drugged or forced, who *gasp* maybe even enjoy doing it????


Actually when this whole discussion started, I did a search online for erotic sex. There's a lot of tame sex material out there, aimed at couples, marriages, etc. I would think this material probably includes mature couples in relationships. 

But apparently that's not the kind of porn people really like... It would turn me on more if I knew both participants really enjoyed it.. knowing a guy gets fluffed between shots just does not turn me on. 

I grew up in a casual sex environment, I lived a casual sex life, I met my H in a casual sex environment... Casual sex got me in quite a bit of trouble that I'm still paying for. So I personally do not see the allure of casual sex porn. But I suppose the flip side is that because people haven't really lived it and it looks like fun? I will take loving sex over get drunk and bang some stranger in a night club any day. It actually churns my stomach when I think about my past.


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## moco82

Cherry, I wish I could be so unequivocal. Some of my prior casual encounters I try to forget, while others I recall while pleasuring myself.


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## anonim

Hope1964 said:


> What we need is 'organic' porn. Porn made with mature actors who aren't drugged or forced, who *gasp* maybe even enjoy doing it????



Yes. Porn needs this.


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## anonim

momtwo4 said:


> I don't think you can put garbage collectors and miners in the same category as strippers and porn actors.


why not? arent they both jobs that are seen as negative duties to perform? explain please.


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## anonim

Cherry said:


> Actually when this whole discussion started, I did a search online for erotic sex. There's a lot of tame sex material out there, aimed at couples, marriages, etc. I would think this material probably includes mature couples in relationships.
> 
> But apparently that's not the kind of porn people really like... It would turn me on more if I knew both participants really enjoyed it.. knowing a guy gets fluffed between shots just does not turn me on.
> 
> I grew up in a casual sex environment, I lived a casual sex life, I met my H in a casual sex environment... Casual sex got me in quite a bit of trouble that I'm still paying for. So I personally do not see the allure of casual sex porn. But I suppose the flip side is that because people haven't really lived it and it looks like fun? I will take loving sex over get drunk and bang some stranger in a night club any day. It actually churns my stomach when I think about my past.


funnily enough, female friendly categories returns the least offensive, most genuine and professional.


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## Cherry

anonim said:


> funnily enough, female friendly categories returns the least offensive, most genuine and professional.


Not sure I understand..

ETA.. after another cup of coffee... that would explain my preference to watch the girl/girl action over the other stuff.. if my H suggested watching something, which we both might do ever so often..together.


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## worriedgirl

my husband is addicted to porn, every spare second he has he is looking at it. We have sex about 3-4 times a week so its not like he isnt getting any attention from me. But he hides his porn and lies about looking at it. Even after I told him I dont mind if he looks at it.


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## momtwo4

anonim said:


> why not? arent they both jobs that are seen as negative duties to perform? explain please.


I will gladly explain. If one of my children wanted to become a garbage collector, I would not have a problem with this. I'll admit that I might be a little concerned that he/she would have trouble making enough money to support a family. However, if that is what my child really wanted, fine. There is no shame in collecting garbage. A garbage collector contributes _positively_ to society. 

However, I feel that pornography contributes negatively to society. I have seen way too many marriages and relationships negatively impacted by porn. Not all people become addicted to pornography, but many do struggle with addiction. 

How does a porn star positively contribute to society? They do not. Their job is to get people off. And they do so in a way that ultimately degrades real relationships. That is really what pornography does. It degrades and damages the real intimacy that couples were meant to share with each other. I want my children to see sex as more than a pure physical release. 

This is why I see _no real comparison between garbage collectors and porn stars. _

I think the very vast majority of parents would feel horrified at their little girls (and boys) growing up to be porn stars. There is a reason for this. Apparently, however, these reasons cease to matter when an orgasm is involved.


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## Lon

It's funny, my son has wanted to be a garbage truck driver ever since he was two, he's almost 6 now... its his life ambition I suppose!

He is also really good with bugs/insects, I can't believe how easy he spots them, and the most bizarre rare ones he seems to find and pick up/hold in his hand. I told him he could be an "entomologist, and travel all over the world looking for cool new bugs", nope he still wants to drive a garbage truck.

We'll see what he wants to do in ten years when he's sixteen, lol, hopefully not porn.


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