# I love everything about her, expect one thing...



## jro (Jun 12, 2017)

And it’s a big one, our sex life. 

My girlfriend is amazing. She is (almost) everything that I could ever want. She is beautiful inside and out. She is smart, educated, successful, loves the work she does. She is kind, loving and would do anything for a person that she loves. She stops to help strangers in need or pick up trash. She is a great mother to her son and treats my son as if he were her own. We are financially very comfortable and she is good with money. She isn’t superficial and could care less about having the latest things. She would rather spoil everyone else but herself. She is adventurous and up for almost anything at the drop of a hat. We rarely fight and have never had a serious fight. She has an immense amount of patience and rarely loses her temper. What makes her happiest in life is making the people she loves happy. She would be a great wife and someone would be very lucky to have her, but I don't know if that person is me. 

I have been married before. I was married for 8 years and we fought every day of that marriage and in the end hated each other and still do. That is not a place that I want to end up at with my girlfriend. My girlfriend has never been married, but was in a serious relationship for 7 years. We both have pre-teen sons, who get along quite well. 

Our sex life is the one part of our relationship that I don’t love. We have sex, it’s not like she withholds it (my ex-wife did). We have sex once or twice a week, which by some standards would be good. The problem is that she isn’t into it and doesn’t enjoy it. Never has, with me or anyone else. It doesn’t feel good for her and she tries to fake it but that makes me not enjoy it. Sex is sort of like a blowjob, she does it because she loves me and it feels good for me but she gets nothing from it other than happiness from pleasing me. 

But at least she tries? At least we do have sex? That could change and she could decide she doesn’t want to do it anymore, though to be honest I really can’t see her doing that. It’s added to this invisible list of things that she does for me to make me happy. I’m not sure what is worse, having her fake the enjoyment or when she doesn’t fake it but is emotionless, still and silent (dead fish). I either have to accept that she doesn’t enjoy sex or walk away. 

2 years was a timeframe for marriage that we both had in our minds. We didn’t talk about it much but it did come up from time to time. We both thought that would be enough time to know if we wanted to get married or not. Now we are quickly approaching 3 years and I feel like it’s now or never. I don’t want to waste her time, or mine. 

She is expecting/hoping for a proposal when we go away for our 3rd anniversary. If it doesn’t happen I know she is going to be very hurt. She was with her ex for 7 years, they had a child and he wouldn’t propose. I don’t want to be that guy to her, it still hurts her. 

I’m out of town (out of the country actually) and won’t be back until the night before our 3rd anniversary. I can’t break up with her over the phone or through an email. I also don’t want to end things on our anniversary or have our planned weekend away, act like nothing is wrong, then break up with her. I keep playing out in my head what I would say to her and I just don’t want to hurt her. She knows sex is a problem, it has been in all of her relationships. She is very self-conscious about it and deemed herself unlovable before we met. I don’t want to lose her and I don’t want to hurt her. I don’t want her to think that she’s getting a proposal but instead gets a break up. 

Our anniversary is in a little less than 3 weeks. I’m flying back on a Friday and meeting her at the resort we have booked for our anniversary. We’ve already paid for it, so it wouldn’t be easy to cancel for some made up reason. Anniversaries are special to her.

I have thought about breaking up with her for a while. I keep coming back to, I don’t want to lose her, I don’t want to hurt her and she is otherwise perfect. There is no such thing as a perfect person so is this something that I should just bend on? She is aware of it, she puts in effort to make it work, she hates it and is self-conscious about it. She would love to be able to enjoy sex and hates that she can’t. But sex is a big deal and a problem for a lot of people. I don’t want to make the same mistake twice, though it’s really not the same. She would love me and be a great wife until the day she dies. I could love her for the rest of my life. I wouldn’t be 100% happy, maybe 80-85% happy. Either way she gets hurt and that isn’t fair to her. She is upset every time after we have sex. She knows that I don’t enjoy it as much as I could/should and that I’m not completely happy with it. There are tears probably 1/4 of the time after sex. 

It's not fair to her that while we have sex I close my eyes and imagine we're in a different scenario or that I'm with someone else. She should be more than a live sex doll or walking fleshlight. She deserves to have a husband who loves absolutely everything about her, because there is so much to love. She deserves to feel comfortable with a man and not be upset a few times a week because of what she can’t do. She shouldn’t feel less than or worthless. She is too good of a person to feel that way, and to not have someone in her life. I don’t want her to give up. She has always wanted to be married and it’s important to her. She wants more kids, I’d love to have them with her, and the longer this drags on the slimmer that gets (age wise).

We went to sex therapy for a while and prior to meeting me she had gone by herself for quite a while. We learned some things through that, but nothing changed with her enjoyment. In ways in made it worse because it wasn't helping and we both expected or hoped that it would. 

I love her. If I could remove sex from the equation I would have married her 2.5 years ago. I'd marry her today. People have worse sex lives, what I had with my ex-wife was much worse. She tries and puts in effort, should it be the deciding factor? I'm not looking for a second divorce, but also don't want to lose an amazing woman over something that in the grand scheme of things might not be that big.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Life is full of difficult choices with very real trade-offs. Contrary to what is forcefed to people now a days, sometimes you can't have it all no matter how badly you want it. At least you both recognize this is an issue now, and in what appear to be her style, she has been completely up front, open and honest with you, which is a lot more than many others can say.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

If this is a problem in your relationship right now, what do you think it will be like in 10 or 15 years time?

You have had the experience of marriage one time in your life and that has taught you quite a bit. Are you going to use that knowledge to make future decisions, or are you going to ignore it and hope that everything fixes itself with time and patience?

You may not want to hurt your girlfriend, which I believe With all sincerity, however it will hurt her more for you to stick your head in the sand and stay with her long-term only to find out that you have grown to resent her enormously for not giving you enthusiastic sex for years. You will no doubt come back here to tell us that nothing has changed, and in fact, it may have gotten worse.

Your gut is already telling you that this may be a big problem. Provided you have communicated to her very clearly about what your expectations are for intimacy, then she should be as equally truthful about whether she can meet your needs or is unable to do so. Also, her actions will speak volumes over her words. 

You should take into consideration the possibility that she is very happy with the way your relationship is as it stands and she sees nothing as lacking. It may not be fair to you, but it may be her reality.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

I might have missed it but exactly what doesn't she enjoy about sex?

My w never particularly enjoyed PIV. We're working on it but it has been painful and just not enjoyable - but there are things we can do now that it's out in the open and we're working on it

My W's favorite is a bj but she won't let me go down on her (again we're working on that and she understands it's just a mental block)

We use a vibrator and various things and are both happy. Of course I would love her to live PIV and a bunch of other things but that is my preference.

So I would never discount a bj as duty sex in any way. People get sexual satisfaction in a variety of ways. Could be your fiancé really enjoys that and hj and would enjoy vibrators, etc

Do you use vibrators? Can she o through masturbation?

Btw it's ok to not make a decision and be honest about working on this more first.

If she's nervous or apprehensive or feels pressured it can kill her arousal and sex without arousal is not enjoyable.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Btw my personal experience with people pleasers and those who are tremendously considerate of others - often means they don't prioritize their own happiness and pleasure. This can be a problem with sex, because that actually takes a bit of selfishness to be able to achieve O - the ability to give AND receive sexually. Could this be an issue? Could she have difficulty "taking" sexually and just feeling guilt-free pleasure?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Does she tell you that she does not enjoy sex? How do you know this?


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## jro (Jun 12, 2017)

TheTruthHurts said:


> I might have missed it but exactly what doesn't she enjoy about sex?
> 
> My w never particularly enjoyed PIV. We're working on it but it has been painful and just not enjoyable - but there are things we can do now that it's out in the open and we're working on it
> 
> ...


The way she has described it is, during penetrative sex she can feel it but it doesn't feel good. It doesn't hurt her. She has a sex drive but it's so suppressed that you wouldn't know it. She doesn't see the point in acting on it (unless I want to) because it doesn't feel good for her and she just gets frustrated that she can't enjoy it or orgasm. She has never had an orgasm from another person. She has managed a few on her own, but they are few and far between (couple times a year) and take 45+ minutes with a strong vibrator. She gets bored, frustrated or sore and quits. When she does orgasm she says it's not very strong and doesn't feel like she thinks it should.

She is very sensitive and oral, fingers or vibrators hurt her. Even very gently putting my tongue on her clitoris makes her pull back in pain. One thing that we tried from sex therapy was for me to give her oral but avoid her clitoris for 10-15 minutes. It helped a bit, but still hurt her when I did move to her clit. After that pain, any sexual tension that was built up is lost and over. If we keep going and push through the sensitivity pain she clenched her fists and teeth to deal with it. Eventually it goes away, but any arousal is long gone. 

It's the same with vibrators or fingers, hers or mine. The few times she has orgasmed it has been with a vibrator placed above or below her clitoris, not touching it. 

She likes the idea of sex. She wants to enjoy sex and gets upset, mad and jealous that she can't. She does struggle with feeling pressured to enjoy it. She has slept with 6 men and this has been an issue with each starting from her very first time. We don't ever really talk about it but it's come up in therapy sessions that we went to. She doesn't think she's good enough for anyone, including me, if she can't enjoy it. That is a lot of pressure. 

She doesn't seem to have a problem allowing me to try and please her anymore. It was an issue when we first got together but we worked on that and I assured her I didn't care how long it took.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

OP, you indicated that the two of you have seen a sex therapist. Did the therapist identify a specific issue or issues that might be worked on? Is there a medical diagnosis of some type that might explain this situation? 

I suppose it might be clarifying to know whether this is something that even has the potential to ever improve?


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

OP,
What has the medical community had to say. Is there loss of sensation or has there been damage of some sort? Has she never in her life experienced sexual pleasure? If she has before then she can again if the condition(s) that are preventing her enjoyment can be discovered and dealt with. You are correct in that she sounds nearly perfect in every other area. This is vitally important to you however and you may find yourself building resentment over the years.

It would behoove you carefully consider whether or not you could enjoy a life with her as it is now. Do not marry her thinking it will change and then become bitter. If you can accept things as they are then it appears she would make a good wife, if not, then it would be prudent to move on and not string her along further.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Satya said:


> If this is a problem in your relationship right now, what do you think it will be like in 10 or 15 years time?
> 
> You have had the experience of marriage one time in your life and that has taught you quite a bit. Are you going to use that knowledge to make future decisions, or are you going to ignore it and hope that everything fixes itself with time and patience?
> 
> ...


:iagree:

Given that you've been to sex therapy, both as a couple and her on her own, and have seen no results or change, indicates that this as good as it's going to get. And I have a feeling that it's _only _this good now because you're not married yet; if you do marry her, there's a good chance that the sex will dry up altogether.

I have to give her credit. She's trying, which is more than a lot of people get from their partners. But sometimes, simply trying isn't enough, if one doesn't succeed in making actual change and improvement.

It's not her fault, and it's not your fault, but this relationship isn't working on one very important facet. You need physical intimacy with a willing, enthusiastic partner (that's what makes it truly intimate!), and despite her efforts, she is unable to give that to you. She wants to, clearly, but she simply cannot. Sadly, I don't think that she will be able to understand exactly how important this is to you, and WHY it is so important to you. (Those of us who are HD and are/were stuck in sexless marriages understand, but none of us have ever been successful in getting our LD spouses to understand this.)

You don't want to hurt her, and while that's admirable, it will be unavoidable if you honor and prioritize your own needs... because you will never have your needs met fully in this relationship. She sounds like a wonderful woman, but if you stay with her--if you marry her--you are facing a lifetime of struggle and disappointment in terms of physical intimacy. Is everything else about her worth giving up the physical intimacy that you know you need?

It's going to be hard, because she WILL take this personally, even though she already knows this is a problem. She will feel hurt, especially if she's expecting a proposal (not to mention the baggage with the ex who wasn't willing to put a ring on it after SEVEN YEARS). But is her happiness more important than yours? Is a relationship really happy if one person is happy and the other is not?

She's a great woman, and she's perfect for someone... but she's not right for you, as amazing as she is. You both deserve to find someone who is a better fit in terms of sexual compatibility.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Regarding sex therapy, did she consistently do the exercises she was advised to do? I really wonder based on the fact that most people avoid difficult things, and certainly those things that make one feel inadequate.

If she has responsive desire, as my w does, she may find masturbation not very sexy and have difficulties achieving orgasm

Our sex therapist advised my w to try with vibrators etc to orgasm with penetration to see she found it enjoyable. She never did the exercises.

Instead, she would need to use the vibrator with me there, participating, kissing, touching, etc to arouse her. It's catch-22 - she won't be aroused without me but I can't discover her sexuality for her. So instead it's something we have to do together

Does this resonate at all with you? I'm pressing this because you seem to be interested in this woman and I think it's worth trying anything.

Btw if you work with her it will be tough to disconnect the pressure from the proposal but try to make it about you as a couple


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

If I was more Freudian, I'd be worried about the slip in the title of your post. 

Your title was, no doubt, meant to say you love everything about her, *except *one thing...

But what came out of your keyboard was that you *expect *one thing... (the thing you ain't getting)


As for worrying about who's happiness is important, I think there's really no conflict here. Even if she's happy and you're not, that situation can't last. If there is no chance to improve the situation,there will come a day when your lack of happiness will lead to the same in her. It is inevitable, especially if she honestly cares for you. Just as you deserve a fulfilling sex life, she deserves a partner who is accepting of her challenge in such a way he won't feel like he's missing out. Only with such a person can she be happy in the long term.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

As a general rule your sexlife will get worse with marriage. I recommend that you don't settle. Move on and keep searching for the right one. 


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

jro said:


> And it’s a big one, our sex life.
> 
> My girlfriend is amazing. She is (almost) everything that I could ever want. She is beautiful inside and out. She is smart, educated, successful, loves the work she does. She is kind, loving and would do anything for a person that she loves. She stops to help strangers in need or pick up trash. *She is a great mother to her son and treats my son as if he were her own. We are financially very comfortable and she is good with money. She isn’t superficial and could care less about having the latest things*. She would rather spoil everyone else but herself. She is adventurous and up for almost anything at the drop of a hat. We rarely fight and have never had a serious fight. She has an immense amount of patience and rarely loses her temper. What makes her happiest in life is making the people she loves happy. She would be a great wife and someone would be very lucky to have her, but I don't know if that person is me.
> 
> ...


Based on what you have posted, I would tell her exactly what you have posted on your special vacation. 

I would tell her what you said and that is you would marry her in a heartbeat, if you thought the two of your could be sexually happy. If she is half as wonderful as you say both for you and your child, I would tell her that you would like to try sex therapy again with her and that if the two of you feel sex is working for you , that you will marry her. I would then interview at least 3 sex therapists with her to fine one that the two of you are comfortable with. Ask them if they can help the two of you find ways to share sex and intimacy that will bond the two of you together or if they can recommend someone who can.

I almost divorced my wife that I love, because she would not have sex with me. I was in a sex starved marriage and a sex therapist helped save my marriage. Sex is very important to me, but so is intimacy and feeling sexually desired. I think that a good sex therapist may help you discover your need and enjoyment of intimacy and help you and wonder woman find a compromise on sex that you can both live with.

Good luck.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Could you and she both be happy if sex is something she does *for* you? There there could be other things you do for her. 

Its not an unfair situation but it may not be something you are both happy with. 

Its not anyone's fault but serious sexual incompatibility will likely lead to an unhappy marriage.


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## jro (Jun 12, 2017)

I have a hard time deciding if this problem is one that will get worse with time or will just stay the same as our version of normal. I'm not living in la la land expecting the problem to be magically resolved with unicorn dust. It would be great if it were and I won't give up trying, don't get me wrong, but I'm not expecting it to be. If I marry her I'm agreeing to things how they are right now. 

I could love her forever. I could be happy, but would I be happy enough? I feel like I should know without a doubt and have no concerns. Cold feet? Perhaps it's because I'm away right now, or because there is some proposal pressure coming up. 

I have been married before and it was a series of bad decisions one after the other. I'm much more cautious this time around. Is that good or bad, I don't know. My gut feeling is that I'm not going to marry her, but that I want to. My first marriage was a disaster. I don't want to have walked away from that decade of experience with nothing learned. My ex-wife and I grew to resent each other and still do today, it affects our child and it's something I do not want again. I don't resent my girlfriend right now, but I can see how this could turn to resentment. Not saying it will for sure, but I can see that as a possible outcome. 

She is happier than I am, I think. She wishes she could enjoy sex and she would change it if she could, but it has always been this way for her. She has said that it's like wishing your eyes were a different color or you were taller, it's just the way it is. She is mostly unhappy because of my unhappiness. If I was happy with how things were, she would be too. 

She has not been diagnosed with anything physical that would cause the loss of pleasure. She has anxiety which is medicated. She has never been sexually assaulted, at least not that she has admitted to. I question that but have nothing to base it on aside from some reactions. ie) When she watches Game of Thrones with me and there is a rape scene or rape talk she gets noticeably uncomfortable. 

She has trouble relaxing, which doesn't help at all. Her mind races and she can't focus on the moment. She focuses on tiny details, like what type of screws on on her bed frame or the desk beside the bed. Recommended by the sex therapist we tried a blindfold to shut down the sensory input, and later ear plugs to stop her from focusing on random sounds (like cars driving by, car doors closing). It was challenging for her to get comfortable, when she did it seemed to help a bit, but then she'd use touch. Such as rubbing her fingers on the pillowcase to feel the material or tapping her fingers. She looks totally relaxed, if you don't know what's going on inside her head. I was actually very surprised when she told me what goes on in her head during sex. It has become better, but she still doesn't get any pleasure from intimacy. 

She actually was good, better than me, about following what the sex therapist suggested. I would have been ready to throw in the towel sooner than her. She wants to enjoy sex, for her and for me. There were things that made her, I or both of us uncomfortable but we tried everything suggested. Some things we stopped sooner than recommended, like role playing. My girlfriend is not a role player and it was uncomfortable all around. It was suppose to help her focus more on what she was doing and to keep her mind from wandering or getting bored. 

She has never had sexual pleasure. Her first time she was way to young, but she said she felt nothing and that it didn't even hurt. 

Apologies if this seems rushed, it was a little bit as I wanted to post but have a meeting to get to. The typo in the title was just a typo.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

OP,
This is from another thread but I feel it to be valid an worth your consideration.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/18031674-post8.html


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

Just going to throw this out there. It sounds as if her clitoris is very sensitive. You said she has achieved orgasm with stimulation just above it or below it. I would concentrate on that. Allow her clitoris to stay hidden behind her lips and keep up with the indirect stimulation. 

Also...look into a g-spot vibrator and spend a little more time investigating that sweet spot. I think you'll have more luck with that combo. 

I think you should at least be willing to try a different approach before you throw away an otherwise wonderful situation 

Good luck!

ETA: maybe a glass of wine to relax the body first? Talk to doc about Ativan. It's nowhere near as strong as a xanax...I call it my chill-pill. I take 5 mg if I can't get the brain to stop obsessing over work and relax after work. Or if I have to go to a big-box store and it's overwhelming. When I'm hormonal, 1 mg helps me take a nice nap and doesn't leave me feeling groggy when I wake up...just relaxed. Worth discussing with the doc 


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

Just saying that if you take the time to figure out what rings her bell, it could be a whole game changer. 

People are snowflakes. We are all different. There isn't one list of directions that works for everyone. 


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## jro (Jun 12, 2017)

That is something that the sex therapist recommended as well. I had things to try and some materials that were essentially a step by step guide of oral without touching the clitoris. Either I suck at it, or it doesn't work for her. She said it felt okay, it didn't hurt, but she has never been anywhere near orgasm with it. If we stay together it's something to keep working on. She doesn't usually want me to do anything for her anymore, says it's a waste of time and effort and a cause of frustration. And that the reward isn't worth the effort (for her to get there). 

She has been consistently against taking medication (or a drink) before we have sex. That is one thing that she has never bent on and won't consider. I think it might help her, we won't get anywhere of she won't relax, but I can't force it.


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## jro (Jun 12, 2017)

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> This is from another thread but I feel it to be valid an worth your consideration.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/18031674-post8.html





badsanta said:


> For some people an emotional connection and feeling loved is far more important than being aroused and having orgasms.
> 
> Never measure how much someone loves you by the orgasms they have during sex!
> 
> It is very possible that your wife may receive all her sexual validation by simply pleasing you and seeing you happy and satisfied intimately. This may be exclusively what she find arousing. Everyone is different!


I think part of that is true of my girlfriend. She would be ok if our sex life stayed exactly as it is. She has tried harder in this relationship than her past. She tried in her other relationships as well, but didn't push as much or try things that made her uncomfortable.

She is very self-conscious in terms of her sexually ability. Afterwards when she apologizes and cries says to me that she isn't totally happy. She does enjoy pleasing me and being in control of my pleasure, not in a domination way.


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## jro (Jun 12, 2017)

uhtred said:


> Could you and she both be happy if sex is something she does *for* you? There there could be other things you do for her.
> 
> Its not an unfair situation but it may not be something you are both happy with.
> 
> Its not anyone's fault but serious sexual incompatibility will likely lead to an unhappy marriage.


Maybe. I want sex to be something that I do with her and we both experience together and enjoy. At some level, having sex with her knowing that she doesn't enjoy it feels wrong. It isn't as if I'm raping her but where is the line. She enjoys the physical closeness, the kissing and that she can make me feel good. For her it's more emotional needs that are being met, I suppose.

Maybe I need to learn to view sex differently and not so black and white.


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## jro (Jun 12, 2017)

Young at Heart said:


> Based on what you have posted, I would tell her exactly what you have posted on your special vacation.
> 
> I would tell her what you said and that is you would marry her in a heartbeat, if you thought the two of your could be sexually happy. If she is half as wonderful as you say both for you and your child, I would tell her that you would like to try sex therapy again with her and that if the two of you feel sex is working for you , that you will marry her. I would then interview at least 3 sex therapists with her to fine one that the two of you are comfortable with. Ask them if they can help the two of you find ways to share sex and intimacy that will bond the two of you together or if they can recommend someone who can.
> 
> ...


Finding a new therapist could be a valid option. I suppose they won't all be the same or follow a universal philosophy. We saw the one that she had seen on her own and I didn't really think about trying a different one. A new opinion might help. 

I don't know if she really wants to hear a "I'd marry you, if..." or "I'd marry you, but..." speech. From what I know of her relationship with her ex (7 year) that was a line she heard time and time again. She knows why I haven't got down on one knee yet. She is painfully aware. Either way, it is something that we will have to talk about. She will be hurt if a proposal doesn't happen and will be upset if I end things. It's poor timing. Not that there is ever good timing. 

I do like the idea of seeing a new therapist and will talk to her about that.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

What was her sex experience like prior to being medicated for anxiety? The physical sensations you are describing are how I feel too, and I am also medicated for anxiety. (I take SSRIs). It was only in the last several years that I started meds so I do have a frame of reference for what it feels like when I am not medicated. The meds alone cause a lot of the symptoms you speak of. 

I will not stop taking medication entirely, but I went through a period of adjustment over 2 years with my doctor to find a medication and dosage that minimizes the sexual side effects as much as possible while still controlling my anxiety. 

If her mind is racing to that degree still, I wonder how well controlled her anxiety really is though. 

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## jro (Jun 12, 2017)

kag123 said:


> What was her sex experience like prior to being medicated for anxiety? The physical sensations you are describing are how I feel too, and I am also medicated for anxiety. (I take SSRIs). It was only in the last several years that I started meds so I do have a frame of reference for what it feels like when I am not medicated. The meds alone cause a lot of the symptoms you speak of.
> 
> I will not stop taking medication entirely, but I went through a period of adjustment over 2 years with my doctor to find a medication and dosage that minimizes the sexual side effects as much as possible while still controlling my anxiety.
> 
> ...


She has been medicated for about 7 years. Prior to that I believe she was taking antidepressants for a little while. She had a 7 year relationship and 2 others while non-medicated. The first guy she had sex with told her she sucked, cheated and rubbed in her face that he was with others (teenage drama). I've only heard it come up a couple times so how much still stems from that I'm not totally sure. She said sex has never felt good for her. 

She has been medicated as long as I have known her and I don't think her meds have changed but I don't know for sure. Her doctor hasn't been great about it. Maybe it's time to find a new one. I won't lie and say I'm an anxiety expert, but her medication doesn't eliminate her symptoms. If someone rings the doorbell or calls unexpectedly she has trouble slowing her heart rate, fast breathing, can't calm down and focus on a task for a while. To some people she comes off as rude or *****y even though she isn't at all. She could tell you different patterns in the popcorn ceiling or how many times the fan spins per minute.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

JRO,

You can likely make this work - and overall work pretty well. BUT - her pretending it feels better than it does needs to stop. And you need to accept that she's doing this out of love not lust. 

All that said - there is one question you need answered before proceeding. Is the experience bad/difficult/unpleasant for her?

If it is, walk away. That's not long term sustainable. For either of you. If she's happy - emotionally happy - to do this for you - and physically it's at least ok for her - AND you remove all pressure for a pretense of passion - sounds like a good marriage.




jro said:


> And it’s a big one, our sex life.
> 
> My girlfriend is amazing. She is (almost) everything that I could ever want. She is beautiful inside and out. She is smart, educated, successful, loves the work she does. She is kind, loving and would do anything for a person that she loves. She stops to help strangers in need or pick up trash. She is a great mother to her son and treats my son as if he were her own. We are financially very comfortable and she is good with money. She isn’t superficial and could care less about having the latest things. She would rather spoil everyone else but herself. She is adventurous and up for almost anything at the drop of a hat. We rarely fight and have never had a serious fight. She has an immense amount of patience and rarely loses her temper. What makes her happiest in life is making the people she loves happy. She would be a great wife and someone would be very lucky to have her, but I don't know if that person is me.
> 
> ...


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

jro said:


> She has been medicated as long as I have known her and I don't think her meds have changed but I don't know for sure. Her doctor hasn't been great about it. Maybe it's time to find a new one. I won't lie and say I'm an anxiety expert, but her medication doesn't eliminate her symptoms. If someone rings the doorbell or calls unexpectedly she has trouble slowing her heart rate, fast breathing, can't calm down and focus on a task for a while. To some people she comes off as rude or *****y even though she isn't at all. *She could tell you different patterns in the popcorn ceiling or how many times the fan spins per minute*.


It's time for a new doctor, perhaps a very good psychiatrist. Have her evaluated for what sounds like a _raging_ case of ADHD. We tend to associate that disorder with wildly behaved little boys who can't sit still and pay attention. But it's not at all uncommon in grown women, even if it often presents a bit differently. Essentially, ADHD makes it really hard to filter and prioritize stimuli. That can make it very hard to "turn off" everything else and pay attention to important things, even if you want to or try to. While other, often very unimportant, things seem to get stuck at the forefront of the mind. You can't focus and pay attention to what's important because your mind is deluged with floods of information you can't stop or even filter or categorize very well. And, yes, that can be anxiety inducing, but can also lead to feelings of inadequacy and low self-esteem, so depression is often also in the mix. Anti-depressants and anti-anxiety medications will help some, but they won't help with the underlying issue and so are likely to be ineffective long-term. If she does have ADHD, she might find some relief with a different class of medications that addresses that issue directly.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

ADHD my thoughts too


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## youngnmarried16 (Jun 9, 2017)

Has she had a tramatic experience with sex before ?? Sounds weird that she just hates sex...


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

There is a protocol to counteract anorgasmia caused by SSRI's - which it sounds like she took for a time. My doctor discussed anorgasmia before prescribing and told me to monitor this and we could switch to a Med that works with dopamine instead of serotonin.

I researched this and found the inability to orgasm can last after stopping meds, but can be counteracted.

Google anorgasmia in women and Mayo Clinic can explain this - which is NOT uncommon

She will have to be willing to keep working on this and not give up. That's critical

Her early sexual experiences are NOT indicative of her ability to experience sexual pleasure. As the mayo web page points out, a large number of different factors can cause this.

Since she has achieved orgasm in the past, I strongly believe this can be improved. But she has to have the right, positive, frame of mind. She has much negativity associated with her sexuality now and I suspect that is perpetuating the problem

I would: treat for ADHD if needed (I STRONGLY believe this is an underlying issue); change anti/anxiety meds or dosage; see new doctor, gyno and sex therapist; work together to focus on the intimacy and connection during sex.

Your comfort level and pleasure during sex is equally important. She likely sees your distress so you should put on a poker face and show pleasure and comfort and love so she feels safer

I am hopeful that this can be addressed. You will LIKELY have to interview doctors until you find one qualified to help with female anorgasmia.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

jro said:


> She has been medicated for about 7 years. Prior to that I believe she was taking antidepressants for a little while. She had a 7 year relationship and 2 others while non-medicated. The first guy she had sex with told her she sucked, cheated and rubbed in her face that he was with others (teenage drama). I've only heard it come up a couple times so how much still stems from that I'm not totally sure. She said sex has never felt good for her.
> 
> She has been medicated as long as I have known her and I don't think her meds have changed but I don't know for sure. Her doctor hasn't been great about it. Maybe it's time to find a new one. I won't lie and say I'm an anxiety expert, but her medication doesn't eliminate her symptoms. If someone rings the doorbell or calls unexpectedly she has trouble slowing her heart rate, fast breathing, can't calm down and focus on a task for a while. To some people she comes off as rude or *****y even though she isn't at all. She could tell you different patterns in the popcorn ceiling or how many times the fan spins per minute.


Yes - she should find a new doctor. Likely she has lived this way for so long (with intrusive thoughts and racing mind) that it's her new "normal" and she doesn't realize that she could get better. It does take a LOT of work to find a doctor that takes you seriously, and to keep pushing until you find a therapy/medication that works. It can feel hopeless and it can be easy to just accept that hey, maybe this is the best I'm ever going to get. When you have an illness that takes over your brain to this extent, it not only impacts your moods, it also makes you just plain exhausted. Being constantly "on" and hyper-vigilant about everything is exhausting. It took me a long time to realize that "normal people" really do have periods of time in a day when their brain can turn off and they can be peacefully thinking about nothing at all. It also takes a long long time when you are dealing with medications to first, get your body adjusted to the new medication (it took me at least 4 months each time), and second, decide at that point whether this is the med to keep or whether you need to start over with something else. Perhaps most frustrating of all is that even when you DO find something that works for you - it can suddenly stop working one day for no perceived reason. Your body chemistry changes over time and you may need to change dosage or change to new meds. It's a Rollercoaster! 

Anyway - regarding your specific issue...

The upcoming trip sounds like really bad timing, because there is so much pressure for this to be the time when you propose. Your hesitation is totally valid. They say marriage is "in sickness and health", and a lot of people say those vows not really understanding their gravity. I can tell you that when my H and I got married, my anxiety was not at the level that it is now and I thought I was normal. All of my problems hit me after we were married. If I was ever to enter the dating pool again (God forbid) I would honestly not expect someone to marry me because of the mental health problems that I have. It's a heavy burden to put on someone else's shoulders. 

An honest conversation with her about your hesitation is where I would start. Before the upcoming trip, so she doesn't go into the trip expecting something that isn't going to happen. 



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## jro (Jun 12, 2017)

We booked the stupid vacation 8 months ago at a resort that books up very quickly. The resort is for couples only and can't be played off as anything less than a romantic getaway. We have activities booked already, including one that if I were going to propose that is when I would do it. When I booked the vacation it was with the intention that if we were still together at that point and not engaged, that's when I would propose and it was built around that. Or that we would already be engaged and it would be a romantic getaway. The timing makes me want to shoot myself in the face. 

I can't see her for another few weeks, then we are suppose to meet at the resort. I can't propose and it's going to hurt her. Talking to her before hand is probably a good idea, so she doesn't expect a proposal. I don't think she is expecting a proposal as much as she is hoping for one and nervous that it won't happen. That talk will probably end up ruining the trip, though. Maybe it would be better to cancel it. 

I'm not ready to throw in the towel and call it quits. There are some things we can still try. I can't propose to her if I am not completely sure. 


Faking the enjoyment is a lose-lose. She is very good at faking it. She doesn't go over the top and if she hadn't told me that it didn't actually feel good I don't think I'd know. The problem is that when she acts like it feels good that tells me to keep doing whatever I'm doing, which isn't going to help at all. If she is natural and doesn't act like it's better than it really is she is quiet and lifeless. Just laying there while I do whatever I'm doing. I don't know what's worse, her faking or her clearly not enjoying it. The latter leads to me fantasizing about being in a different situation with her (not bad, really), or about someone else entirely. She doesn't know that, nor would I tell her. My sex drive has taken a hit because it's not fun. We have sex once or twice a week, mostly to just clear the urge to do it. 

She doesn't think pretending to enjoy it is wrong because I know the truth. She knows I don't enjoy it when she is lifeless, and wants the sex to be good for me since it can't be for her. I can understand that she is doing that because she loves me, but I still see it as a lose-lose situation. She isn't negatively affected by it. She isn't in pain, sex isn't uncomfortable, she isn't suffering mentally to get through it. She would have sex more often if I wanted to. I think at some point I would have to accept that this is the way our sex life is and it's not going to change, eliminating the pressure on both of us. On her to enjoy it, and the pressure I put on myself to make her enjoy it and orgasm. 


90% of the time you wouldn't know that there was anything wrong with her. Her anxiety only shows up in certain situations, like being surprised (doorbell, phone call, seeing a familiar person unexpectedly), when she is tired (we're out with friends and she's tired when we leave, she kind of shuts down socially and comes off as *****y, doesn't say bye, doesn't talk much, etc.), or during sex. 

I'll admit I'm not an expert on ADHD and know little about it aside from what I just looked up. Would she not be affect all the time, rather than just a small fraction of the time? She doesn't have problems concentrating on her work which requires her to be constantly recalling information. She completed a bachelors and masters with a high GPA. She is a good organizer and a pro at keeping track of events, special days, etc. She focuses on the smallest details that no one else would think twice about. When we first got together she painted her whole house, so almost 3 years ago, she was doing touch ups recently and easily recalled every paint color without having to look it up. She can say was type of screws are in various parts of the house (door knobs, light plates, vents, toys) without going to look at them, if she reads a book and needs to tell someone information from it without looking at the book she can recall the page most of the time. When we go grocery shopping she knows exactly what we have and need without needing a list. She doesn't have a problem with impulse control, she is probably the least impulsive person I know. 

But, when we do have sex she cannot stop thinking about other things. She doesn't worry about things. She finds patterns in the ceiling, or focuses on marks on the wall, the number of lines in the pattern on bedding, how many times the fan spins, sounds that I don't hear but she does. She has said that she can't stop it and shut her brain off. So maybe it could fit and a different type of medication would help her better. 


She has never admitted to having been sexually abused. She is uncomfortable when rape scenes are in shows or movies, or someone says something about "being raped" without it actually meaning sexual rape. She has never said she has been abused sexually or show any clear signs of it. From what I have been told she had some "douchey" experiences with sex but nothing along the lines of being forced.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

It's entirely possible to be very intelligent and talented, a good student, highly successful in your career, have excellent (even eidetic) memory, and still have ADHD. There are several "types" of ADHD, and the disorder itself usually presents in women differently than in men. All of which is why having a professional evaluation by someone who works with ADHD is important if it's even a suspected issue. 

She may not have ADHD at all. But clearly her current treatment plan isn't all that effective, and you've said her doctor doesn't seem to really be staying on top of it. Which is why I suggested a new doctor. One who is committed to helping her figure out what's going on and has the experience to do so. If nothing else, and even absent any other diagnosis, she at least deserves to have someone who will help her manage her anxiety more effectively.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

I think your only choice here is to talk to her before the trip. I assume you're still in regular communication even though you are apart? Set a phone/Skype "date" and make sure you both have clear calendars for it, and talk. 

Don't cancel the trip without first being honest with her, and letting her give her input about whether she still wants to go. 

She's going to be hurt, yes. She may need some time to process what you tell her. She may decide to end your relationship over it. 

She may not, though. She may choose to still go on the trip and try to make the best of it. 

How do you know the distance hasn't also affected her perception of your relationship? She may have cooled off a bit herself since you've been apart. 

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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

ADHD can simply be heightened awareness - my son sees everything. Typically executive function is compromised - planning - but that can be taught. It's possible shes highly organized - if she has ADHD - to cope with the onslaught of incoming signals and information that others simply don't notice


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

TheTruthHurts said:


> ADHD can simply be heightened awareness - my son sees everything. Typically executive function is compromised - planning - but that can be taught. It's possible shes highly organized - if she has ADHD - to cope with the onslaught of incoming signals and information that others simply don't notice
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I am that. I have ADHD and have developed excellent planning skills as a coping mechanism. 

How does she respond to non sexual touch?


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## jro (Jun 12, 2017)

Rowan said:


> It's entirely possible to be very intelligent and talented, a good student, highly successful in your career, have excellent (even eidetic) memory, and still have ADHD. There are several "types" of ADHD, and the disorder itself usually presents in women differently than in men. All of which is why having a professional evaluation by someone who works with ADHD is important if it's even a suspected issue.
> 
> She may not have ADHD at all. But clearly her current treatment plan isn't all that effective, and you've said her doctor doesn't seem to really be staying on top of it. Which is why I suggested a new doctor. One who is committed to helping her figure out what's going on and has the experience to do so. If nothing else, and even absent any other diagnosis, she at least deserves to have someone who will help her manage her anxiety more effectively.


I will talk to her about being evaluated by someone else. Hopefully without offending her. She does need a new doctor but she has been with hers for so long that she's comfortable and hates seeing new doctors. 

ADHD could be a possibility, who knows. I assume that would use different medication and maybe that would help her more. A new diagnosis and treatment could help our relationship. Whether we stay together or not it will help her, hopefully.


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## Betrayedone (Jan 1, 2014)

You're screwed..........NOT! This can't possibly work. Only going to get worse.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

Maybe she's gay.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

@jro So, self love is banned by your religion, is it? Because if not, that might be something to think about sometimes.


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## jro (Jun 12, 2017)

kag123 said:


> I think your only choice here is to talk to her before the trip. I assume you're still in regular communication even though you are apart? Set a phone/Skype "date" and make sure you both have clear calendars for it, and talk.
> 
> Don't cancel the trip without first being honest with her, and letting her give her input about whether she still wants to go.
> 
> ...


We do still talk daily. We call once a day usually and talk or facetime for a few minutes. It's 2 months total that I'm gone for. I will set up a time when we'll both have uninterrupted time to talk. 

I suppose you're right that it wouldn't really be fair for me to cancel the trip without talking to her first. She may still want to go. I wouldn't mind going if all thoughts of a proposal were off the table and she wouldn't be upset about your but I don't think that will be the case. 

I worry that telling her I'm not going to propose is going to bring up past baggage. Her ex/son's father wouldn't marry her after 7 years, I don't want to be put in the same box as him. If she thinks I'll never marry her she might be done. 

At times, I find the separation nice. I miss her, don't get me wrong, but I don't miss her constantly or think about it all the time. She texts me often saying she misses me. She's a bit upset that I'm gone (for work). She has expressed that she is worried the separation will give me second thoughts (guess she was right). I don't think she's feeling the same way I am. She could be, I don't know for sure and won't until he talk about it. 

Having the conversation so that she doesn't think I'm breaking up with her will be the hard part. "I don't want to break up but don't want to marry you" doesn't come off to well.


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## jro (Jun 12, 2017)

john117 said:


> I am that. I have ADHD and have developed excellent planning skills as a coping mechanism.
> 
> How does she respond to non sexual touch?


Hmm, the ADHD suggestion is something to look into. As long as I bring it up properly she isn't likely to be offended and is a pretty open person. I just don't want to come off as trying to diagnose her or knowing more about her than herself. It may be something that was considered years ago and omitted as a possibility.

She is a very touchy person. She constantly wants to be cuddling, holding hands, arm through mine, or otherwise touching. She would be touching me all day if she could. She likes massages a lot. At night if were sleeping together she has half her body over mine most of the time.


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## jro (Jun 12, 2017)

MattMatt said:


> @jro So, self love is banned by your religion, is it? Because if not, that might be something to think about sometimes.


My wellbeing and happiness is important as well. If I can't be happy I know a marriage would never work even if she is the happiest person in the world. If she made me miserable I wouldn't stay with her. She makes me very happy with everything except this issue. I could be happy being with her forever, as things are now, but not 100% happy. Does true happiness even exist, though? Every couple I know has something(s) about their spouse they don't love or would change.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

jro said:


> We do still talk daily. We call once a day usually and talk or facetime for a few minutes. It's 2 months total that I'm gone for. I will set up a time when we'll both have uninterrupted time to talk.
> 
> I suppose you're right that it wouldn't really be fair for me to cancel the trip without talking to her first. She may still want to go. I wouldn't mind going if all thoughts of a proposal were off the table and she wouldn't be upset about your but I don't think that will be the case.
> 
> ...


Before you talk to her it's important that you have a clear picture of what YOU want. 

You don't want to marry her right now. Do you want to marry her ever? What could she do to make you want to marry her? (See a new doctor, go on new meds, etc...or...nothing?) If the answer is nothing, then you need to tell her that you are not ever going to marry her. 

Why did her ex never propose to her? 

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## jro (Jun 12, 2017)

kag123 said:


> Before you talk to her it's important that you have a clear picture of what YOU want.
> 
> You don't want to marry her right now. Do you want to marry her ever? What could she do to make you want to marry her? (See a new doctor, go on new meds, etc...or...nothing?) If the answer is nothing, then you need to tell her that you are not ever going to marry her.
> 
> ...


I do want to marry her. I don't want to marry her when I have concerns though. I don't want to break up with her right now, but I want to be sure that we'll be happy. It has been almost 3 years and if I'm not sure now maybe I never will be. 

If there is nothing else we can do for our problems then I want to feel confident that I will be happy enough. I do want to have her see a new doctor, get another opinion, see a different sex therapist. I understand she could do all that and nothing may change. 

I have to come the accept that she doesn't enjoy sex but is happy to do it for me and she "fakes" so I can enjoy it better. 

If she asks if I ever want to marry her saying I don't know will be the wrong answer. Our relationship has been the same for about 2.5 years, if I don't know now maybe I never will. Maybe I'm just holding on because I love everything else about her. 

I don't really know why he didn't propose. I've never had a conversation like that with him and he didn't give her much of a reason. What I do know is that he always had an excuse to put it off and after stringing her along and the excuses dried up he flat out said he didn't want to. She has expressed that their sex life was a lot like ours and he was unhappy with it. He didn't want to commit to her, though he had a child with her. Unplanned, mind you.

I don't want to be that guy to her and string her along for years. For all I know he felt the exact same as me and eventually threw in the towel. I love her, I don't want to hurt her. I don't want to have a conversation with her and lead her on, or hurt her unnecessarily. She doesn't think she's good enough for someone to be with because of the sex difficulties. I don't want to be another man who proves that true in her mind. That can't be the only reason I'm still hanging on though.


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## james5588 (Mar 22, 2017)

JRO,

I feel for you and your situation. 

It sounds like you have set up these expectations for the trip and the 'relaxing' getaway has become a source of stress. Especially for her, given that she struggles with anxiety, this seems almost excruciating. I would suggest just tabling the talk of marriage and just enjoy your time away together.

At the same time, I wouldn't compare yourself to the prior 7 year guy. There may be some general commonalities, but some dude bolting on his child and his mother (after 7 years) cannot be compared to a man thoughtfully considering a life-long marriage and its potential implications. You are not 'abandoning' her even if you decide to call it off.

Also, I would google 'helen fisher ssri love'. Fisher is a researcher who studied the way anti-depressants affect love and desire. I also know that certain anti-depressants can completely kill a woman's libido and ability to enjoy sex (Antidepressants and sex: A doomed romance? - Salon.com).

Though others have mentioned 'high functioning' adhd, it could also be that she struggles with obsessive thinking or even PTSD. But it should go without saying that I am just some guy on the internet and feel foolish offering a 'diagnosis'. I do know that there is research which shows individuals who struggled with diagnosed adhd as children can later experience anxiety as adults (it has to do with norepinephrine levels).

I hope you the best of luck!!


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## jro (Jun 12, 2017)

james5588 said:


> JRO,
> 
> I feel for you and your situation.
> 
> ...


Any opinion that I read on here is just food for thought and things that I may not have thought of myself. I have never challenged the idea that she has something else or in addition to anxiety. She was diagnosed with it before my existence in her life and I accepted it as that is who she is and what is correct. I don't know enough about mental health to have an opinion really. I do think another opinion would be good for her. Anxiety or otherwise, what she is doing right now might not be the best choice for her.

If we could forget about marriage, go on the trip and have a good time I'd love to go with her. We don't have a lot of alone time together and it would be nice. We have spent the last 8 months building up to this. There has been a lot of wedding/marriage talk, talk about proposals, ring size. I don't think I have straight out said I'm going to ask her to marry me but I hinted at it. We are apart for 2 months and she was worried that time apart would mess with our trip/relationship. I don't want her to spend the whole time wondering if/when I will propose to her. So I do need to talk to her about it and hopefully we can remove it from the table for now and have a good trip. 

I do compare myself to her ex. He, to whatever degree, is still in her life. If we break up I'm totally out of her life and it does feel like abandonment. I use to wonder how he could do that to her, their son and string her along like that. Now I'm well on my way down that path. I considered him a bad guy and a **** and I'm following the same foot steps. I was wrong about him or wrong about the type of person I thought of myself as. They broke up 7 years ago I think and if I want a surefire way to make her cry, bring that up. She is long since over him but the pain is still there. I don't want to be added to the baggage like that some other man has to sweep up. If she would even date again. She dated two men between her ex and I. After those ended she swore off dating. When we met she had no intention of getting into another relationship. I pushed and pushed until she agreed to go on a date with me. She flat out said that I didn't know it but I didn't want to be with her. I told her I was going to prove her wrong but maybe she was right all along. Or maybe I'm not man enough to deal with it. She is night and day compared to my ex-wife. I should be jumping for joy that I have her and locking her down (so to speak) before someone else snatches her up, not pondering back and forth like this. 

She called me tonight, as we do every night, and I didn't answer any of the 3 calls or call her back. I know that is going to worry her and she won't be able to sleep but I still couldn't bring myself to do it. I'm being a selfish ass. I don't know what to say to her and don't want to say something stupid. I am going to look up the person/research you suggested.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

You're going to have to buck up and tell her the hard stuff sooner or later. Gathering your thoughts is fine, but she's well aware that you are having reservations.

My recommendation is to stop comparing this relationship to that with her ex. You are taking a dump on your own relationship by comparing to a totally different relationship at a totally different time in her life. Her life experiences and disappointments are not your burden to carry and address... And "fix." They are hers. You need to keep the emotional focus on your relationship and give it the full consideration and attention it deserves. That includes being honest about what you need in a healthy relationship. If she can't meet your needs, it just won't work long term, ever. She has needs, too, and if you can't meet them, she should move on. 

I think it's entirely possible to be sexually incompatible and for there to be nothing else wrong with the relationship. It doesn't mean you should force a square peg into a round hole (figuratively) just because 90% of the relationship is great. Believe me, with enough time and resentment, the rest will go downhill, too.


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## Inquisitive1 (Feb 17, 2017)

Are you sure sex is the only issue? She sounds way too perfect from what you described. Are you worried she will change after you get married? Maybe the stress of it all (the need to people-please) is showing up in bed. 

On the other hand, has she expressed what turns her on?

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## jro (Jun 12, 2017)

Inquisitive1 said:


> Are you sure sex is the only issue? She sounds way too perfect from what you described. Are you worried she will change after you get married? Maybe the stress of it all (the need to people-please) is showing up in bed.
> 
> On the other hand, has she expressed what turns her on?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


Sex is the only major issue. Trust me, if it weren't for that I would be married to her already. She has faults like any other person, no one is perfect, but they are not dealbreakers. There is a fear that she will change after we marry, my ex wife did. Shortly after we married she turned into a different person. She stopped wanting to do things with me or for me, sex went out the window, she started spending a lot of money, was a ***** most of the time, had at least 1 affair that I know of, stopped caring about her body and gained about 40 pounds, stopped caring about her physical appearance, wouldn't help with household chores. She blamed it all on having a baby. After our son we had another, which was fullterm stillborn and things became horrible after that. We fought nonstop and she would get physical. We still don't get along at all. 

So yeah, I am worried that she will change when/if we marry. She is a people pleaser and I think part of that is trying to overcompensate for what is missing (sex). She wants to be married, have more kids and have an intact family. I don't want that drive to be creating who she is, once we marry there would be no need to keep it up. I think it's just a fear based on my past, I don't think she'd actually do that. 

We have talked a lot about what turns her (and I) on. A lot of the sex therapy we did focused on that. For her a lot of touching, massage, kissing, touching/kissing her breasts, sweet talk, turning her on throughout the day, being a bit dominant (not bdsm) during sex.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Sadly, some people do change, and not for the better, after marriage. One person changing (because they feel they don't have to make the effort now that they've put a ring on it, or because they were trying too hard before the marriage, and now they feel free to just "be themselves", or for other reasons), alters the entire dynamic of the relationship; this can force the other partner's behavior and reactions to change in response, and the first person doesn't understand... why is s/he being such a jerk now? Etc... not realizing or acknowledging that their own initial change was the catalyst. And then things tend to snowball from there.

It is definitely something to be cautious of when considering a second marriage... but it's also important to be aware of your own behavior and make sure that you don't change or start phoning it in, either. (I'm not saying that you did in your first marriage, I'm just making a general statement.) No one wants to go through that pain a second time.


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## jro (Jun 12, 2017)

Satya said:


> You're going to have to buck up and tell her the hard stuff sooner or later. Gathering your thoughts is fine, but she's well aware that you are having reservations.
> 
> My recommendation is to stop comparing this relationship to that with her ex. You are taking a dump on your own relationship by comparing to a totally different relationship at a totally different time in her life. Her life experiences and disappointments are not your burden to carry and address... And "fix." They are hers. You need to keep the emotional focus on your relationship and give it the full consideration and attention it deserves. That includes being honest about what you need in a healthy relationship. If she can't meet your needs, it just won't work long term, ever. She has needs, too, and if you can't meet them, she should move on.
> 
> I think it's entirely possible to be sexually incompatible and for there to be nothing else wrong with the relationship. It doesn't mean you should force a square peg into a round hole (figuratively) just because 90% of the relationship is great. Believe me, with enough time and resentment, the rest will go downhill, too.


If I totally removed her history from the equation I wouldn't feel as bad, which feels wrong to say. 

I do need to talk to her. I keep going back and forth on whether I should simply end things or drag them on. I would like to know for sure were my mind is before talking to her but I can't keep putting it off. I didn't answer her calls or texts last night and all I sent today was a text saying I fell asleep and was busy today and couldn't talk. I don't want to lie to her. That isn't right or fair to her. She isn't stupid, she'll know something is up. 

I don't want to break up with her over the phone and when I can't be home for a other few weeks. We don't officially live together, we didn't want to until we were engaged or married because we both have kids. We have our own places but are always at one or the other, together. That would make a break up a bit easier, not having to deal with moving out fully. I also don't want to make a decision that I will regret in a few weeks when I'm home. She is off work today and her son should be with his dad, might be the best time to talk to her and see where she stands. For all I know she will call it quits when I say marriage is off the table for now. Or, like you said, decide I'm not meeting her needs.

In a way it feels like I am putting too much emphasis on sex. That it shouldn't be this important when everything else is good. Sex is a big deal but is a small part of our daily life. Sex was a problem in my first marriage, so I should be more aware of that and unwilling to bend. But there were so many other problems that they all blended together and it was the least of my problems with her being a raging ***** all the time. Things were so bad for so long that there was no repairing it. Neither my ex-wife or I wanted to try. I don't have most of those same problems with my girlfriend but I can see the same resentment possibly emerge. It would be stupid to marry when anything is wrong.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

It's my opinion that you aren't putting too much emphasis on sex. An intimate relationship (not platonic) or marriage ARE sexual relationships. Sex is what separates them from all other types of relationships. It's one of the foundations of that type of relationship.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

jro said:


> Any opinion that I read on here is just food for thought and things that I may not have thought of myself. I have never challenged the idea that she has something else or in addition to anxiety. She was diagnosed with it before my existence in her life and I accepted it as that is who she is and what is correct. I don't know enough about mental health to have an opinion really. I do think another opinion would be good for her. Anxiety or otherwise, what she is doing right now might not be the best choice for her.
> 
> If we could forget about marriage, go on the trip and have a good time I'd love to go with her. We don't have a lot of alone time together and it would be nice. We have spent the last 8 months building up to this. There has been a lot of wedding/marriage talk, talk about proposals, ring size. I don't think I have straight out said I'm going to ask her to marry me but I hinted at it. We are apart for 2 months and she was worried that time apart would mess with our trip/relationship. I don't want her to spend the whole time wondering if/when I will propose to her. So I do need to talk to her about it and hopefully we can remove it from the table for now and have a good trip.
> 
> ...


Why did you talk about rings and marriage and proposals before your trip when you were having reservations? 

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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Sounds like she is very interested in intimacy, touching, kissing, etc. To me that's at least half of "sex". Just because she doesn't enjoy PIV (now - I still think there's hope) doesn't mean she wont enjoy hj, bj, mutual masturbation, and PIV (from the standpoint of providing pleasure).


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## jro (Jun 12, 2017)

kag123 said:


> Why did you talk about rings and marriage and proposals before your trip when you were having reservations?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


It was over the last several months. We've had good and "bad" patches. No fighting, me second guessing. My reservations have become worse since being away. We were doing good when I left. We were excited for the trip and I had every intention of asking her to marry me when I came back. In "absence makes the heart grow fonder" or "out of sight out of mind" I take the latter. I think she takes the former.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jro said:


> Hmm, the ADHD suggestion is something to look into. As long as I bring it up properly she isn't likely to be offended and is a pretty open person. I just don't want to come off as trying to diagnose her or knowing more about her than herself. It may be something that was considered years ago and omitted as a possibility.
> 
> She is a very touchy person. She constantly wants to be cuddling, holding hands, arm through mine, or otherwise touching. She would be touching me all day if she could. She likes massages a lot. At night if were sleeping together she has half her body over mine most of the time.


You ought to build on the above. 

Instead of a "dear Jane" discussion to separate, why not express your concerns and offer some serious sex therapy and counseling. 

Given how compatible you indicated you are it's not an easy thing to do. But I would offer it as a prelude to better understanding yourselves, not as an ultimatum.


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## jro (Jun 12, 2017)

TheTruthHurts said:


> Sounds like she is very interested in intimacy, touching, kissing, etc. To me that's at least half of "sex". Just because she doesn't enjoy PIV (now - I still think there's hope) doesn't mean she wont enjoy hj, bj, mutual masturbation, and PIV (from the standpoint of providing pleasure).


She does enjoy everything except penetration (sex, toys, fingers) and clitoral stimulation. I'm not the type of guy that usually just wants to stick it in. I enjoy the foreplay and buildup. So I do appreciate that she is (very) into touching, kissing, teasing, etc. She is turned on when we have sex, the penetration, touching, oral just doesn't feel good for her. The fact that I can't do anything to give her pleasure is something I need to get over if I want to be with her. Stop my ego from being hurt. Maybe it's more my problem than it is hers.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

jro said:


> She does enjoy everything except penetration (sex, toys, fingers) and clitoral stimulation. I'm not the type of guy that usually just wants to stick it in. I enjoy the foreplay and buildup. So I do appreciate that she is (very) into touching, kissing, teasing, etc. She is turned on when we have sex, the penetration, touching, oral just doesn't feel good for her. The fact that I can't do anything to give her pleasure is something I need to get over if I want to be with her. Stop my ego from being hurt. Maybe it's more my problem than it is hers.




Look I totally get that. My w isn't into PIV at all. Originally medical issues, then atrophy probably, but we are still trying to work on it. I would love it if she could be like the women in porn who can't wait to ride the pogo stick but that ain't her. I suppose it is some women but I've only been with my W so don't know. Vibrators work great for her, though, so that's where our situations differ. However she doesn't really care if she has an O most of the time but is ready and willing to take care of me. But we've got 30+ years so that's pretty good, right?


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

And BTW a kind, considerate, loving spouse is kind of hard to find these days from what I read. So I understand why you are torn


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

jro said:


> She does enjoy everything except penetration (sex, toys, fingers) and clitoral stimulation. I'm not the type of guy that usually just wants to stick it in. I enjoy the foreplay and buildup. So I do appreciate that she is (very) into touching, kissing, teasing, etc. She is turned on when we have sex, the penetration, touching, oral just doesn't feel good for her. The fact that I can't do anything to give her pleasure is something I need to get over if I want to be with her. Stop my ego from being hurt. Maybe it's more my problem than it is hers.


Have you guys ever tried anal? I don't know enough about it to say whether it's likely to be better for her. But it would be a different, more indirect, stimulation for her. Maybe it's something worth trying?


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

BioFury said:


> Have you guys ever tried anal? I don't know enough about it to say whether it's likely to be better for her. But it would be a different, more indirect, stimulation for her. Maybe it's something worth trying?




Hahahahaaa! Riiiiight. 

IMO, my lover has zero access to that until he has figured out my vagina first. 


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

Elizabeth001 said:


> Hahahahaaa! Riiiiight.
> 
> IMO, my lover has zero access to that until he has figured out my vagina first.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I get that. But under the circumstances, surely you would agree that it's an idea.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

BioFury said:


> Yeah, I get that. But under the circumstances, surely you would agree that it's an idea.




No. Way. They have a LONG way to go for that level of intimacy. I don't see it happening in this century. 


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

Elizabeth001 said:


> No. Way. They have a LONG way to go for that level of intimacy. I don't see it happening in this century.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Level of intimacy? They're having sex, and contemplating marriage, it's not like they're strangers. You act as though anal sex is more intimate than vaginal.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

BioFury said:


> Level of intimacy? I'm not following. They're having sex, and contemplating marriage, it's not like their strangers. You're acting as though anal sex is more intimate than vaginal. Which I don't get, especially since vaginal isn't working for them.




Yes you don't get it but that's ok. MANY women perceive that as exit only, and many who DO engage in anal only do so with trepidation.

OP has been clear that his GF doesn't like to discuss sex much anyway so I'm guessing suggesting an alternate route to someone who doesn't get pleasure from sex is probably barking up the wrong tree


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

BioFury said:


> I don't know enough about it to say whether it's likely to be better for her?




Exactly. 


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

TheTruthHurts said:


> Yes you don't get it but that's ok. MANY women perceive that as exit only, and many who DO engage in anal only do so with trepidation.
> 
> OP has been clear that his GF doesn't like to discuss sex much anyway so I'm guessing suggesting an alternate route to someone who doesn't get pleasure from sex is probably barking up the wrong tree
> 
> ...


No, I get that, most women aren't into it. I'm saying that from an intimacy standpoint, it's sex. I don't see how anal sex is "more intimate" than vaginal sex. 

The OP's wife isn't Elizabeth, or any other woman, and we don't know what she will and won't like. The odds of her enjoying it more than vaginal are low, but there are women out there that do. Perhaps she's one of them. In any case, it's the future of their relationship on the line. IMO, a long-shot would be worth trying, as opposed to not trying at all.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Elizabeth001 said:


> Hahahahaaa! Riiiiight.
> 
> IMO, my lover has zero access to that until he has figured out my vagina first.
> 
> ...


Sometimes the truth hurts. Sometimes it's just damn funny! Thanks for the straight talk!


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Sometimes the truth hurts. Sometimes it's just damn funny! Thanks for the straight talk!




I'm old. I don't have time to beat around the bush 


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

jro said:


> She does enjoy everything except penetration (sex, toys, fingers) and clitoral stimulation. I'm not the type of guy that usually just wants to stick it in. I enjoy the foreplay and buildup. So I do appreciate that she is (very) into touching, kissing, teasing, etc. She is turned on when we have sex, the penetration, touching, oral just doesn't feel good for her. The fact that I can't do anything to give her pleasure is something I need to get over if I want to be with her. Stop my ego from being hurt. Maybe it's more my problem than it is hers.


Although she enjoys it now, that may fade over time. Without an innate desire for sex, her motivation for sexual activities may fade. Right now you're at the beginning and it's exciting, but after years of being married that kind of excitement will fade. There are so many stories here from people who had typical hot sex lives at the beginning and then wife totally loses interest. I can't see how your situation would be any different, other that you might get to that point sooner. And for those other guys, at least they could point to the fact that they used to have sex to try to fix things. 

If you didn't initiate sex, would she ever initiate? Or even mention the lack of sex?


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

wilson said:


> Although she enjoys it now, that may fade over time. Without an innate desire for sex, her motivation for sexual activities may fade. Right now you're at the beginning and it's exciting, but after years of being married that kind of excitement will fade. There are so many stories here from people who had typical hot sex lives at the beginning and then wife totally loses interest. I can't see how your situation would be any different, other that you might get to that point sooner. And for those other guys, at least they could point to the fact that they used to have sex to try to fix things.
> 
> If you didn't initiate sex, would she ever initiate? Or even mention the lack of sex?


This is true. What you are getting right now is likely the absolute best that it's going to get. You said she wants another baby? You won't have time to devote to lengthy sex therapy with a baby/young child in the house. 

Have you ever been to the therapist by yourself to work out why you attach your ego to her orgasm? 

I don't think that's unusual btw, but I cannot say I fully understand it. I've been with many men who feel the same way and I have a difficult time achieving O (only made worse by the meds). In the past I would fake it just to avoid hurt feelings and awkwardness, and to try to alleviate some of the pressure off of myself. When you can't O easily, you are painfully aware of it, and I didn't want any more attention lauded onto me about something I already felt inadequate about. I faked with my husband too in the beginning of our relationship. Not all the time...just when I knew it wasn't going to happen. I just never told him about it. I couldn't see how telling him would help. 

Then we got married, had kids, my mental health problems spun out of control and I went on medication. Putting on a grand performance for sex took a back seat. I told him that it was difficult for me to O - but by then I had enough legitimate reasons for it that I couched it by blaming having kids/hormone changes/medication side effects, which were not 100% lies. Those things really did make an impact. He just didn't know I was also having those troubles prior to those life events is all. 

It was never about his performance in bed or lack of technique or skill. It's just me. It's just my body and how it is. Being able to tell him the truth though was very freeing. I am sure he doesn't love that I can't always O, but I wouldn't say our sex life is terrible by any stretch. I think having those caveats I could lean on to make absolutely sure he didn't take it personally helped me to be truthful with him. 

Maybe it would be different if I couldn't O at all - I don't know. For me it's more like I have a weekly allowance of O's (don't laugh) and I need enough time in between them before it will happen again. But I am still happy to service my H because his drive is higher than mine. I am willing and enthusiastic with him even when I cannot O myself, and I like to think that means it's not just "duty sex". 

Maybe if we had met now under these conditions and complications - both of us being older and more experienced - that issue would be enough for him to choose not to marry me. I don't know. I don't think that he thinks our entire marriage has been a waste of his time just because of this one issue, though. 


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Livvie said:


> It's my opinion that you aren't putting too much emphasis on sex. An intimate relationship (not platonic) or marriage ARE sexual relationships. Sex is what separates them from all other types of relationships. It's one of the foundations of that type of relationship.


Agree. Why else do you get married, if not to secure exclusive banging rights to the person you love? Sure, there are other perks of being in a committed relationship, but really, the reason you wanted to be with with her was to do the human pretzel. That's the reason I'm with my husband. It's the reason he's with me. All of the other great qualities of our partnership (the companionship, deep philosophical discussions, laughs, cries, cuddles) are a part of the total package, but they're bonuses to me. The sex is where the bond stays strong, so everything else can be highly enjoyable. Or as Odo says, he keeps my oxytocin fix topped up so I won't dump him. 

There's nothing wrong with this attitude, if it's what you believe. That's my opinion, at least.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Before you do anything drastic, here's some things to consider.

It sounds like she's a gem in many ways. It would be a shame if your relationship doesn't work out. It sounds like you guys are good at working together, so I think you could have a shot of figuring out a workable future.

It's a shame about this one issue, but the good thing is you know about it now. That's actually an advantage. Many people go into marriages thinking the bedroom is always going to be rocking, and then it's a total mess when things cool off. You know it's already a problem, so you have the opportunity to start having honest discussions about what happens when she's not as motivated. If she goes in with the mindset that intimacy always needs to be part of a marriage even if she's indifferent, she may be more likely to always make it a priority.

Do you like cuddling/snuggling? If so, that can provide some degree of sexual satisfaction. Obviously it's not the same, but cuddling at night/morning with tender kisses can be very satisfying even if it sex doesn't happen.

Has she ever seemed more into it? What about when she's in an exciting situation (party? vacation?)? After drinking? Maybe with some of that fresh "Colorado air", if you get my drift. If so, it may be a way to work on recovery, but you wouldn't want to use it all the time. 

Don't break up, but don't get engaged now. At only 3 years in, you're still in the very early stages. At 7-10 years, you'll have a pretty good idea of what the future will be like. You'll need to have an honest talk about your concerns about the future. You can tell her you want to get married eventually, but this is a big thing that you're truly unsure how you will deal with in the long term and you need more time.

I really hope you can somehow figure out how to make it work. It's pretty easy to find someone to passionate with in the short term, but not so easy to find someone who will be a great partner for decades. This issue will likely never be truly fixed, but hopefully you can find a solution that works out.


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## Roselyn (Sep 19, 2010)

OP, be truthful to yourself. Sex is an integral part of a successful marriage. I'm a career woman, 59 years old, married 37 years (first marriage for the both of us), & never cheated nor was cheated in my marriage. My husband & I have a physical chemistry throughout our marriage. We have no children by choice. We are happy the way our marriage have gone through the years.

Your relationship with your girlfriend is at the best situation it will ever be. You are unhappy with your sex life. Do not make the mistake of marrying because of guilt about your girlfriend's previous relationship. The elephant in the room is that your scenario is replayed like her previous relationship. Do yourself a favor by accepting the truth. She is not for you. Have the courage to let her go.


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## jro (Jun 12, 2017)

I made that call and I think a decision may have been made for itself. She asked me if I will ever marry her and my uncertain answer was not what she wanted to hear. She wants to go on a communication break until I get home and doesn't want to go on the trip. 

I should know what I want. After talking to her and seeing her hurt I should know what I want. I'm sorry that she is hurting but I'm not sure that I want a relationship with her. I thought talking to her would clear my mind one way or another. When the conversation went sour I thought at least the fear of losing her would make me cling on, but it didn't. It might be different once I'm home and cam talk to her face to face. 

The uncertainty that I am feeling may be my answer. I don't want to make a final decision until we are able to talk face to face. I don't want to lose her, but it feels inevitable at this point. I am not going to be another man that drags her on for years because I am uncertain. I don't think she will let that happen either. 

She is right that at 3 years in I should know without a doubt if I will marry her or not. Nothing has changed in our relationship in the last 2 years to cause this hesitation. It has always been this way. If I didn't want to marry her a year or two years ago I'm never going to. I think I don't have my answer but really, I do.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Might I suggest that you don't talk too much when you go back. 

There's no reason to overly justify yourself, it'll only mentally exhaust you both and won't change anything. If she wants a break, assume the worst. Be kind and cordial, wish her well. Move on. It'll hurt for a while but with time, you will be fine... That's provided you take this as a learning experience (constructive) and don't look at it as failure (destructive).


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## jro (Jun 12, 2017)

Satya said:


> Might I suggest that you don't talk too much when you go back.
> 
> There's no reason to overly justify yourself, it'll only mentally exhaust you both and won't change anything. If she wants a break, assume the worst. Be kind and cordial, wish her well. Move on. It'll hurt for a while but with time, you will be fine... That's provided you take this as a learning experience (constructive) and don't look at it as failure (destructive).


I don't want to talk about it to death with her. She wants a break, which she said was to give her space and let her think. She reiterated that we were still together and specifically said not to see anyone else, apparently she thinks I would if we broke up right now. She was very upset, much more than I expected, and that may have affected her judgement. 

I don't know what could change by the time I get home that will change my mind. Or hers at this rate. I think once I'm home we will have an official ending. 

I will have to talk to my son about it before he hears it from someone else. We don't officially live together which will make this easier, but spend most of our time together. She has been like a step mom to my son and he has had her son around as well. We agreed that for now neither of our kids need to know anything. 

Going home to a break will be a great homecoming.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

jro said:


> I don't want to talk about it to death with her. She wants a break, which she said was to give her space and let her think. She reiterated that we were still together and specifically said not to see anyone else, apparently she thinks I would if we broke up right now. She was very upset, much more than I expected, and that may have affected her judgement.
> 
> I don't know what could change by the time I get home that will change my mind. Or hers at this rate. I think once I'm home we will have an official ending.
> 
> ...


It's fine to assure her you aren't going to run away with someone immediately. 

I will recommend, however, that if you do break up, please do it cleanly. She might cling to bits and pieces, offer to stay friends, or set conditions, or what have you. That will not be healthy for either of you and you should refuse to agree to any of that. When you break up, it's your choice what you do after that point. 

Life is full of comings and goings and there are very few people in my life I've known long term. Many people who have had a profound impact on my life were present for only a small part of it. Take away the good from this relationship, take away the lessons, and apply them both toward your next relationship.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

JRO i think you know it is a big issue although you are trying to rationalize it. You already know the answer. As a male, the need for a healthy sexual relationship with your SO is paramount for your emotionally bonding with her. You probably don't need another friend or sister?


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

Lesson ...listen to your gut. Don't wait 3yrs to listen to it.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

The truth is, there's guys out there for whom sex isn't all that important. Someone like that will probably make a better life partner for her. It sounds like she has some amazing qualities and will make the right person very happy.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

wilson said:


> The truth is, there's guys out there for whom sex isn't all that important. Someone like that will probably make a better life partner for her. It sounds like she has some amazing qualities and will make the right person very happy.




Oh yeah. I can PM her my XH's number. LOL


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Two points to make here -

#1 is romance/sexuality are what make our special someone special and separates that relationship from all others. Without a romantic/sexual connection, it is just another friend or activity-based buddy. 

Sexual compatibility is there for a perfectly valid selection criteria and a perfectly legitimate deal-breaker and reason to stop dating if it is simply not there. Additionally I would add that if you have been to therapy and such for this issue, you have certainly given it an honest and sincere try. 

#2, The whole purpose of dating is to spend time doing a variety of things with someone to get to know them and to see if they are the person that you want to be with or not. 

3 years is certainly more that plenty of time for a grown adult to know if that person is the right match for you or not. More than plenty. 

If the answer is 'not' then it is in both of your interests to dissolve the relationship and for each of you to go back on the market. 

This is assuming of course that one or both of you does want to marry and make a home and family with someone. 

Since she obviously wants to marry someone and have a home and family with them, you really are morally and ethically obligated to let her go if she is not the right one for you. This does not mean that either of you have done anything wrong or that either of you are bad or unworthy people. ...just not the right match for each other.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I wish I could remember who said this in another thread because it is pure genius, but if sexual connection and compatibility is important to you - Go back through your posts and everywhere that you have used the word 'sex,' replace it with the term, "something that is important to me." 

Then go back and read through it. 

If you are now reading, "I love everything about her except for something that is important to me," it really does change the way you see it. 

For some reason, we have been brought up to believe we should be willing to sacrifice sexual connection and compatibility for other characteristics like good parenting and good financial management and pleasant disposition. 

Yes those characteristics are important. But why is sexual compatibility of lesser importance and why should we all be so quick to sacrifice sexuality at the alter of marriage? 

If sexuality is important to you, it is important to you and if you sacrifice it, there will be a steep price to be paid. The heart wants what the heart wants and when the heart is lacking, it will not be appeased by trying to tell it that they other balances their checkbook well or is a nice person. We should all be nice people. That doesn't mean that we should marry just anyone that happens to be nice. We need to marry and make a home and family with the right person and if sexuality is important to you, then it is just as valid of a criteria as any other trait or characteristic that is important to you.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Good luck. I dated 6 years - though I was young when we met - but we were also opposites. In fact at one point she broke up with me. But she came back.

I disagree that you should be certain after 3 years. Reservations are ok in my mind - who wants to be with someone exactly the same as them?

I have no idea what you should do so I'm not saying you should stay together. But I also think the others here who say dump her don't know what you should do either. Many are talking from a perspective of having had a bad relationship so that's their take

You have to make your own decision and it shouldn't be about one single bad thing IMO. If you didn't have a sex life or if she wasn't willing to try to please you, then I'd agree you have a real incompatibility. But that's not the case

Your only issue is that you don't like how she feels about sex - not she is unwillingness to be passionate, loving, close, considerate, physical, etc. She is all those things by your admission

I asked my w if she really likes sex and she said her favorite thing is snuggling and hugging. Frankly I love it too and we are very close and intimate that way. She is willing to give me a hj or a bj every night. Regardless of whether she even tries to have an O. But I'm going to be sure we have plenty of snuggle time too now that she has said that

Your real issue is in your mind and with your ego. Believe me I understand and have felt it. On the other hand I've had an amazing 35 years with my best friend, mother of my 5 kids, and someone im really attracted to.

Life's involves tough trade offs. I wish you luck


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## jro (Jun 12, 2017)

How do you end a relationship with someone without absolutely destroying them? We are supposed to be non-communicative, based on her wishes, and we haven't talked since she requested that. She texted me tonight saying, "Would you have married me if I was better in bed?" I haven't responded because there is no right answer. 

When my marriage ended we both hated each other so much that we were happy to be rid of each other. Good riddance and went our separate ways. We were far better off alone and far happier.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

jro said:


> She texted me tonight saying, "Would you have married me if I was better in bed?" I haven't responded because there is no right answer.
> 
> .


You are correct on that one. that is a trick question where you shoot yourself in the foot no matter how you answer. 

That is like if a woman turns down a man's proposal and he were to ask, "would you have married me if I was taller, richer, better looking and more hung?"


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

jro said:


> How do you end a relationship with someone without absolutely destroying them? .
> 
> .


I think you have to ask yourself which would be more hurtful in the end, ending a relationship that's ultimately not going to work and which your heart is not in completely? 

Or staying with someone that your heart is not into because you are afraid of the immediate short-term sadness? 

Which is going to cause more long term suffering? 

But again, this depends on how important sexual chemistry and compatibility is. If it is not all that important and you can live without it without it being any skin off your back, then we don't really need to be having this discussion and you can do whatever you want. 

But if it is very important to you, then it is only going to fester and get worse over time and it will eventually spill over into the other facets of your relationship and will erode and spoil those other areas as well.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

jro said:


> How do you end a relationship with someone without absolutely destroying them? We are supposed to be non-communicative, based on her wishes, and we haven't talked since she requested that. She texted me tonight saying, "Would you have married me if I was better in bed?" I haven't responded because there is no right answer.
> 
> When my marriage ended we both hated each other so much that we were happy to be rid of each other. Good riddance and went our separate ways. We were far better off alone and far happier.




Personally? If it were me and that was the truth, yeah I'd tell her. Why have her question everything else she's doing to search why she's not good enough? You've already said you think she could be overcompensating for the lack of sexual desire - do you want her to believe she has to be even more nice, considerate, etc? That's horrible.

If you break up, man up and be honest. It's not that she's "not good in bed" either. She may think you're looking for certain skills - which I don't think you are. Be honest - you're looking for someone to be willing to work throughout your entire relationship on building a compatible sexual and emotional bond. Explain why that's so important and that otherwise - except for sexual comparability - she is great. If this is the truth, point out there are many men with lower sexual desire would would love to be with someone as great as her

You can be honest without being mean. Even if the truth is hard and hurts, denying it will hurt worse because she knows it. She might as well hear it and know that's all it is and know that if she's willing to work on it she may be compatible with even more people 

Just my $.02


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> You are correct on that one. that is a trick question where you shoot yourself in the foot no matter how you answer.
> 
> That is like if a woman turns down a man's proposal and he were to ask, "would you have married me if I was taller, richer, better looking and more hung?"


Yep, that was a sh1t test. You don't answer those because there is no right answer.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

And the answer doesn't matter because if she were open to trying to change things, she would have already. 


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

jro said:


> We went to sex therapy for a while and prior to meeting me she had gone by herself for quite a while. We learned some things through that, but nothing changed with her enjoyment. In ways in made it worse because it wasn't helping and we both expected or hoped that it would.


How long is 'a while'? What did you find out about her that is causing this? FOO? Sexual assault? Religion? Abusive past partner? SOMETHING caused her to turn off about sex. Did you go long enough to find out what that was?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

jro said:


> I made that call and I think a decision may have been made for itself. She asked me if I will ever marry her and my uncertain answer was not what she wanted to hear. She wants to go on a communication break until I get home and doesn't want to go on the trip.


If she really loved you, SHE would find out what's wrong with her and FIX it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

jro said:


> I don't want to talk about it to death with her. She wants a break, which she said was to give her space and let her think. She reiterated that we were still together and specifically said not to see anyone else, apparently she thinks I would if we broke up right now. She was very upset, much more than I expected, and that may have affected her judgement.


That tells me that SHE sees poor sex as not that big of a deal. In other words, she thinks YOU should be thrilled that she's supplying everything else you'd want in a marriage and just get over it.

It's possible that you can educate her on this, but since you've already gone to sex therapy and nothing improved, she.just.doesn't.get.it. Many women are like that - they simply are not raised to understand that sex is THAT important to men.

That's who she is. It's unlikely to change, except MAYBE if she has to go without you and realize that she has to change.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

jro said:


> How do you end a relationship with someone without absolutely destroying them? We are supposed to be non-communicative, based on her wishes, and we haven't talked since she requested that. She texted me tonight saying, "Would you have married me if I was better in bed?" I haven't responded because there is no right answer.


I would answer "I would have married you if you CARED enough about sex and my need for it to find a solution for this. Because that would have made me feel loved. But apparently you are content with life as it is and you know I am not, yet you want me to accept it."


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

turnera said:


> If she really loved you, SHE would find out what's wrong with her and FIX it.


Not everything can be fixed. The girl I always thought of as my best match for life partner was seriously CSA'd. She told me that very early on. 35 years later she never married. Thru back channels I learned the details and can't fault her. She dealt with it by running away to England and staying there.

She's a fellow psychology PhD, except she's in clinical. Her whole CSA experience made her focus on that. A great person overall, someone who dealt with it in her way.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

john117 said:


> Not everything can be fixed. The girl I always thought of as my best match for life partner was seriously CSA'd. She told me that very early on. 35 years later she never married. Thru back channels I learned the details and can't fault her. She dealt with it by running away to England and staying there.
> 
> She's a fellow psychology PhD, except she's in clinical. Her whole CSA experience made her focus on that. A great person overall, someone who dealt with it in her way.


Fair enough.

A person who really loved you would CARE that you were unhappy and unfulfilled and not gone to therapy for 'a while' and then expected you to still love her. She would have not stopped seeking a solution that made YOU happy. 

Better?

And, john, T/J, but part of your own dysfunction is at your feet, not just hers.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Bottom line...dont marry her. Starting out with this much dissatisfaction over something this important is a disaster waiting to happen. Dont do it.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Therapy may have made her realize that inwardly, she can't do what she's expected to do. 

From that point on, it's coasting until judgement day. OP is lucky in the sense that judgement day came early for him. 

I also would not lay blame on anyone. Some people are strong and resilient, some are weak. Some are outright mentally not quite healthy. 

I stumbled upon (read, asked the relative working at the clinic where said girl was doing treatment, no HIPPA in my birth country...) the entire case and it was ugly. Very ugly. Not the kind of ugly that gets fixed. But the girl had the strength to make the choice for herself, and communicate it to me clearly. Even thinking about it nearly four decades later tightens my heart. Yet I cherish the time we spent together as a "couple", and will always remember her. We parted ways for grad school, and have stayed in touch every few years. 

Maybe this is the outcome OP could strive for? It's not a question of her being broken, or anything like that. A relationship is not predicated upon a purely physical plane. 

Krap. I got emotional...


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## YESTHATSCORRECT (Jun 16, 2017)

jro said:


> That is something that the sex therapist recommended as well. I had things to try and some materials that were essentially a step by step guide of oral without touching the clitoris. Either I suck at it, or it doesn't work for her. She said it felt okay, it didn't hurt, but she has never been anywhere near orgasm with it. If we stay together it's something to keep working on. She doesn't usually want me to do anything for her anymore, says it's a waste of time and effort and a cause of frustration. And that the reward isn't worth the effort (for her to get there).
> 
> She has been consistently against taking medication (or a drink) before we have sex. That is one thing that she has never bent on and won't consider. I think it might help her, we won't get anywhere of she won't relax, but I can't force it.




Are you familiar with the 5 languages of love? I cannot post the link (I am a newb and don't have permissions) but you can find a test to see what language(s) means most to you. 

You're definitely in a pickle. I'm sorry you're weighed heavy about this. 


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Your sex therapist doesn't seem to have paid ANY attention to the psychological issues resulting in her lack of care about sex. What good is that?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Lets not make this too complex. Some people just don't click well in bed. 

That doesn't mean that either one was molested by their Uncle Ernie or their mom's boyfriend while she worked the night shift at Denny's. And it doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with anyone. 

A relationship ending does not mean that someone was dysfunctional or damaged or inadequate as human being. Normal, healthy people get dumped all the time and normal, healthy people dump others all the time. A mismatch does not always mean there is a disorder. 

And if there isn't anything wrong with someone, then therapy isn't going to fix it. 

Most people are normal, healthy, kind, decent people and most people are pleasant enough to be around to do go out and do things with and have conversations with and give each other a hand with normal daily life activities. 

That doesn't mean that there will be sexual chemistry and compatibility there however. Some people just don't do it for you in bed and it doesn't matter if they can stand on their hands and do backflips. 

Sometimes there is no solution because there is no problem or dysfunction. 

It often boils down to is how important is sexual chemistry and compatibility to you? If it's not that big of a deal and you can live with this, then so be it. 

But if compatibility is important to you and someone just simply isn't cutting it for you, then cut your losses and move on so each of you can find someone who is compatible.


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