# Ok, maybe it is me



## Kaboom (Feb 6, 2013)

I've noticed something. In more and more recent posts, I'm finding my anger and resentment literally pouring out, almost uncontrollably.

First off. To all the ladies whom I've offended, I am sorry if I've made statements that are presumptive, rude, and insulting. I realize now just how much anger I've been storing, and it really had kind of felt good in a way to unleash it, but I can see that it's gaining me no love on this forum /shrug.

I guess I've just had a crappy love life. I was once a hopeless romantic. I dreamed like a girl about how things should be, but found only harsh and painful lessons. Lessons that made me bitter, to say the least. Let me summarize, maybe you can understand why I am the way I am:

HS GF- I truly loved her. She was my first sexual experience, and for the first several months it was a fairytale relationship in my eyes. What I didn't know, was that I was emotionally young, and she was a bit more experienced than me. She quickly grew bored, and ultimately didn't have the heart to let me down quickly, and dragged it on for months, resenting me and ultimately treating me like crap the last few months. She started cheating towards the end, and basically crushed me.

GF#2 - cheated on me at a party we both attended. I lost track of her, found her in a bedroom humping a dude. 

GF#3 - thought this was the one. Instant attraction, instant love. Was bliss as could be, and realistic - not fairytale. After two years living together, we got engaged. Once she settled in though, it became nag nag nag nag nag nag. Later came the accusations that I was cheating. She was just way too high maintenance and jealous. I never cheated on her by the way. I eventually broke it off and left her. I now somewhat regret that, I should have worked thru it, but that's hindsight for ya.

GF#4 - used me. She was a pro. Hooked me like a fish, and once moved in she drained the bank account, drove me into debt, etc.. More nice guy here, I was a fool and I know it. I let her do it. She also cheated like it was her job. I was so in love with her, I kept forgiving her, stupid stupid stupid. I finally left when I realized how toxic she was.

GF#5 - This one is a hard pill to swallow. Once again, a really great fit. Probably the best personal relationship match of them all. She was a bit rough in the BR, but nothing too disturbing (well, that could be argued). She left me, just up and gone. Turns out she had a psycho ex who contacted her and convinced her that my life was in danger if she didn't go back to him. I guess she had reason to believe him, but all I know is whoosh and gone. Heart ripped out yet again.

GF# xxx - only dated for a while, really wasn't interested in getting hooked and stomped on any more

Wife#1 - met wife. She was the model GF and again, I was the nice guy. She was having trouble hooking me though.. she knew I held back my feelings. I did move in with her, and eventually she started mentioning engagement in a passing way, but the hints were noticed. When I didn't respond, she actually faked an affair.. made sure I found out, then blamed me for it- yes. I wasn't being committed enough. Well, it worked. It was a close call.. I almost left her over it, but in the end, decided to give her another chance. She brought up my commitment issues several times after that, eventually gulling me into putting hte ring on her finger. She wasted no time planning the wedding, and like a whirlwind, I was standing at the altar before I knew what hit me.

And of course, once married she totally changed. Plenty of detail on her can be found throughout my posts, but in the end, she just put a few more nails in the coffin that is my bitterness.

So here I am, married, stuck in it. I'm actually in a better place with her since our last major fight, but I'm finding that I'm having a lot of difficulty holding in my anger and resentments, not just at her, but at women in general. I no longer look at them and see sweet innocent people, but vicious and toxic monsters.

I still love sex and women of course, but I admit, it's in a totally objective way. I see them as objects of desire, and when I think of the personality, I just see toxic monster. 

This isn't ALL women of course, but just a general sense.

So there's your explanation. Not making excuses ladies, but just explaining where I'm coming from. I've known just as many women (if not more) that hold equal contempt for men.. not that it makes it right, but just wanted to point out that it exists on both sides of the fence.


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## Giro flee (Mar 12, 2013)

Well I might have noticed a little anger in your posts😄. With that many failed relationships you remind me of my sister. She is able to find the same man over and over again. He's usually controlling and closed off, just like our parents. Sometimes subconsciously we pick a person who has qualities we recognize even if we don't like those qualities. I have another girlfriend who can find the alcoholic anywhere and start dating them. What did all of the women you dated have in common? They seem to have similar flaws so maybe your 'picker' needs adjusting. I swear not all women are conniving *****es. Are you staying with your wife?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I feel very sad that your life experiences have led you to this place  I truly hope that something changes for you. That said, you are aware that only you can make things change, right?


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

Its understandable your bitter. But to defend some of the female poster some are really awesome but some are as bitter as you. 
Its good you see it and are looking for a change.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

That really does suck. It does help to know context when reading someone's posts to build empathy.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

Wow your experiences are REALLY bad. 

I've had dozens of relationships during my lifetime and none of them comes close to any of yours. Well maybe my exwife. She was a spender. But I don't think she meant to hurt me with her financial deception, she couldn't help it. Things went bad, we fought, we divorced. The things she said and did to me in the divorce make most other divorces a walk in the park but that was after the fact so it probably isn't relevant.

What was my point besides talking about myself here?

Oh yeah.. it could be your picker but I think it's more like once the writing is on the wall you're reluctant to walk away from it. Even if you're being abused, taken advantage of, clearly with a person with issues, you don't quit before you're really behind.

You're still married? Time to quit.


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## Convection (Apr 20, 2013)

FrenchFry said:


> The thing to remember with all of your relationships and all of the common denominator is you. You are the only one who can work on yourself....





FrenchFry said:


> So yeah, you are justified in being angry. There are your kudos. The next step is to let go of the anger because it's not poisoning all the women who have done you wrong in the past and present, it's not poisoning all the women that you find physically attractive but hate their personality, it's poisoning yourself. It's blocking you from doing the hard and gritty work that is stopping you from picking quality women, from identifying and standing by your principles and it's blocking your perspective on how to cope with the crashing reality that women are just human.


The above sum it all up, man. I don't know any better way to say it.

Love & respect yourself, or no one else will.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

I am waiting for the female counterparts of Mr. Kaboom to show up, because it would be interesting to see their reaction.

BTW, Mr. Kaboom, my sympathy to you, I hope you'll find peace someday. And I admire you for being able to realize your faults & trying to explain why you feel the way you feel.


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## oldgeezer (Sep 8, 2012)

You've really been through a lot. One of the things we all eventually learn to some degree is that you and only you are capable and responsible for your happiness. 

I'm reading between the lines a little, but I grew up distant and emotionally isolated and when I got married, I was so totally "into" being intimate and I had assumed she felt the same as I did. Not true. She didn't see things at all like I did. Of course, she loved me, but she didn't depend on me to be happy. But I did on her. And further, I expected from her what I expected to do. I projected my thoughts and my wants onto her, and of course, eventually I was very disappointed and hurt. 

Of course, not until much later (and its an ongoing process) did I come to understand not everyone's emotionally dependent like I was. It made me vulnerable to being hurt needlessly, and it led me to make decisions and to react with anger and frustration at things I should not have. 

Your experience reminds me a little of my life and reactions. 

First, please... YOU MUST let go of being angry. It's killing you. You have to forgive. You. Who cares about the people who've seriously done you wrong... You have to forgive yourself and by proxy, them. Instead of clinging to the anger and wanting retribution, you need to learn to let it go, and then start living your life to make you happy with yourself and proud of yourself. Excel at something, do something you enjoy. Become the person you wish you were. 

And, oddly enough, what you then seek from a woman, and the relationships you establish, will be done with a clear enough mind to see through the bad ones who aren't going to do right. Once you no longer have the same "need", and you understand YOU are not dependent on your relationship to be fulfilled, it'll just "work out" a lot better next time. And, even if it doesn't? You won't be angry.


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## Kaboom (Feb 6, 2013)

thanks for the positive replies. I think I actually narrowed it down a little more after some deep thought-

At one time, I thought I had let go of the past. I realized my picker issues, shed myself of the nice guy anchor. Then I met my wife. I realize now that even with an oversensitive intuition, I wasn't immune to deception, and that's what I think a great many of my ex's have in common. I see to go for the deceptive type. Believe me, it's not intentional.. if anything, I'm a terrible liar and found that honesty always is my best policy, and maybe they pick up on that, who knows..

But back to my revelations.. After 12 years with the wife now, the last two have been nothing but a roller coaster. The first 10 were no cake-walk, but I found I was able to avoid confrontations by just giving in. I know that's bad, a total nice-guy trait, but realizing she's bipolar, depressed, etc.. believe me when I say that avoidance became the glue that bound us. But the last two years? Something in me snapped. I just got sick of it all, and I got mean. Fights became nasty and harsh words got spoken on both sides.

So anyways, my point was that even once I figured myself out and what I wanted, and thought I was being careful, I still found myself deceived and in the end, it left me entirely bitter.

As far as looking inwards to find the problem.. I'm honestly not sure I have one, other than the obvious. But when I lived on my own, I had a wonderful life- I was able to balance the checkbook and not spend myself into debt. I was physically fit, not for the sake of looking good to attract a mate, but just because I enjoyed sports with friends, hiking and outdoors stuff. I had a decent job that was fulfilling enough. The only thing I didn't have was the companionship that we all crave. I went into this a healthy and happy man, and will eventually leave a broken and bitter aged man.

Ah well, I'm rambling, but maybe this is self-therapy. Deep down, I'm still happy, really. But only when I'm away from home. I like going to work. I like working late. I like going out with friends and going to events. I hate when she comes along, because the drama always follows. Things that should be fun and easy become dramatic, stressful, and no fun at all. She's sucking the life out of me, but I just can't seem to bring myself to leave. Our child needs us both, and I doubt either of us can do it on our own.. neither of us have any family, and as I mentioned in other threads, she's alienated all of her friends and most of mine, so there's no support system at all. Nobody to even babysit. Ok, I'm drroning on, thanks again.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"She's sucking the life out of me, but I just can't seem to bring myself to leave."

How romantic! You should write this on her next birthday card.

I don't know your story, have only read this post. But when someone gets to the point where they see one entire gender, half of the population, as a bunch of toxic pyschos, it is time to stop playing with that half of the population.

What is the point of staying in a marriage with someone you hate, and then acting like you are doing something noble by "not being able to bring yourself to leave"?

(please don't come back and try to explain more why you can't leave....it really will be just words...also please don't pick on me saying you hate her...I'm sure you may not want that word used but it does apply here)


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

He can do as he pleases. Its a open forum. You don't like what he has to say don't post in his thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I can do as I please, too. I have pointed out something and he can ignore it or me if he wants.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

ps....When I was in a bad place in relationships, the only posts on message boards that really helped me were the ones where someone repackaged my words and said them back to me, and then I could hear how I really sounded and could then act on it.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> "She's sucking the life out of me, but I just can't seem to bring myself to leave."
> 
> How romantic! You should write this on her next birthday card.
> 
> ...


hey pot


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

No clue what that means.

Just for clarification, if a woman posted the same thing about how she now hates men and she hates her husband too but just can't leave him...I'd have posted the same remark.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Its hard to separate your hurts regarding your relationship issues in a place like this until you can get to the point where you understand that you are the only one responsible for your happiness. You are also not responsible for anyone else happiness. As far as the lady posters there are only a handful that can post without their hurts coming through their posts. Its why any post that doesn't hold women up on a pedestal gets met with fire and brimstone. Its kind of strange since they're all married to chiseled, well-endowed, non-porn watching men.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

You must not have read many of my posts then? I respond with my usual tactless radical honesty to both men and women. I can't deny that others may coddle women over men, I don't know...I haven't observed that but maybe you are right. That's not me, though. I'm an equal opportunity snark.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

"a hit dog will holler" - Uncle Karl


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Ya know...this was a good thread. I saw the thread before, Kaboom and all I can say is: Good for you, man for writing what you did in the first post. That's good that you can be subjective. That ain't easy. You apologized and now...well...it just got f-cked up by silly responses, IMO.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> "She's sucking the life out of me, but I just can't seem to bring myself to leave."
> 
> How romantic! You should write this on her next birthday card.
> 
> ...


I am one of the people that he attacked just because of my gender, and I for one sincerely appreciate this thread. He's admitting his faults and apologizing. Why does that have to be turned into a BAD thing?? Let the guy vent without the judgement here.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

Self realization comes in stages. At some point, it becomes possible to start changing the things that are driving you to make poor choices or self-sabotage.

Good for you for taking some first steps to realize that some of the problems do lie with you.

I hope you find a way to make things work with your wife. Being in a relationship where you're both clearly unhappy is hard. Fixing it is hard. Leaving it is hard.

Pick your hard. 

I really do wish you luck and appreciate the cajones it took to come in and be as vulnerable as this.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I too am sorry you find yourself in this place. You must let go of your anger and take a good look at your part in things, even if it just means you're choosing the wrong type of woman. After all, the only one you can change is you. If you don't get past this anger it will become a self fulfilling prophesy; in fact, if you're now viewing women as objects for your physical needs, I'd say it's already happened. It's a terrible way to live; you deserve better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

It's so very rare we see a thread where someone actually realizes they're spreading bitterness and anger on the board bc they still haven't healed.It's even more rare to see a thread where someone apologizes and shares where the bitterness and anger is coming from for them...and basically eats some crow and owns up to being rude to others.

I hope you find yourself in a better place soon...once you start to piece together why you feel a certain way you can finally start letting it go to make room for better things.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

ScarletBegonias said:


> ...and basically eats some crow and owns up to being rude to others.


Eeeeyup. Too bad many others can't do this cuz their focus is purely on "Me, Me, Me...Look at Me".


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

For some, therapy IS a lifesaver.

For others, self-realization followed by a plan to make changes in their actions a bit at a time works as well. 

Whatever works for you - take that path. Most importantly, find your happiness. It's best for you, those you love and those who love you.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

OP, I can relate, but I've had different results. 

Every LTR I've been in I was cheated on, including the current one. 

Three of those I was left for a married man. Damn. 

What the hell is wrong with ME? Well, it's my picker I reckon. [no, I didn't mis-spell that lol]

But I have been around long enough to know that the world is FULL of crap people. I don't put it on one gender. Maybe it's because it takes two to tango, so to speak. Two to do good, two to wreck a relationship (although maybe not always the two IN the relationship, summon OM/OW....). 

You gotta be able to put those things in boxes. Close the lid, learn the lesson, and put it in the freezer to cool. Work your best to get past the pain. And whatever you do, don't get into another relationship until you're well past that pain. There are always triggers, mind movies etc., but those are NOT with the new partner. Setting solid boundaries right up front, when things get serious, is absolutely required. 

It's a long process when you've spent a lot of time on the rocky road of crappy relationships. You could just become a hermit; I've thought about that too...  But alas, the allure of a loving, lasting relationship is stronger than my pain. So here I am at it again, making the very best of it that I can, knowing that there's enough pain strewn about in every person's life that I don't need to bring any into the loving relationship I have. 

A rich, smart man I looked up to once asked me, would you trade your bag of troubles for my bag of troubles? Hmmm, I thought, no way! In the light of relationships, leave that old bag on the curb (pun intended), then enjoy the gifts God has given you to start afresh.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

I just wanna point out that Kaboom was my all time favorite Atari game, even Pitfall












kudos for the apology and I truly hope that putting aside the anger will lead to a more productive and healthy relationship or allow you to make better decisions about them


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> I don't know your story, have only read this post. But when someone gets to the point where they see one entire gender, half of the population, as a bunch of toxic pyschos, it is time to stop playing with that half of the population.


Wow somebody sure had a nerve struck here. 

I don't think anyone is referring to you specifically as a toxic psycho but you had a rather kneejerk response to his post!

Anything you want to tell us?


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

Lenzi that's just going to derail this thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

lenzi said:


> Wow somebody sure had a nerve struck here.
> 
> I don't think anyone is referring to you specifically as a toxic psycho but you had a rather kneejerk response to his post!
> 
> Anything you want to tell us?


I have to agree with this part of her post.

If you take issue with me doing so, feel free to PM me. I do not want to derail the good that can be done here. Could she have been more tactful? Oh maybe.

We as men have to own our own sh!t. Women are wonderful. If we choose the wrong women ... that is on us. We do not blame women. This is her point.

He is saying that maybe he realizes now he was doing that. Wondermous. A man finally seeing the light!!! It happens.

So why don't we do him a favor and let him have this.

Again, I have zero interest in debating this with anyone on this thread. So you can take or leave my comments as you will.

But guys. Get a freaking grip. I hate this gender bashing crap period. And I do not want to hear she started it. We are men. Not whiny little boys. We should be able to deal with it. YMMV. Have a nice day.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Entropy3000 said:


> I have to agree with this part of her post.
> 
> If you take issue with me doing so, feel free to PM me. I do not want to derail the good that can be done here. Could she have been more tactful? Oh maybe.
> 
> ...


This post made my day. Thank you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Kaboom said:


> I still love sex and women of course, but I admit, it's in a totally objective way. I see them as objects of desire, and when I think of the personality, I just see toxic monster. .


That's quite a pattern. You realize, right, that YOU are the common denominator?

If you want a different result, see what needs changing in yourself.


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## Kaboom (Feb 6, 2013)

lenzi said:


> Wow somebody sure had a nerve struck here.
> 
> I don't think anyone is referring to you specifically as a toxic psycho but you had a rather kneejerk response to his post!
> 
> Anything you want to tell us?


I say cut her a break lol. I've been far worse in the past. I'm sure I took a shot or two at FW in the past- maybe she's bitter 

Sorry I haven't been around to comment much, work is keeping me bizzy!


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## Kaboom (Feb 6, 2013)

turnera said:


> That's quite a pattern. You realize, right, that YOU are the common denominator?
> 
> If you want a different result, see what needs changing in yourself.


All my life I blamed myself. Then one day I realized- hey.. I'm not the one who cheated! Then I let it all go.. so I thought. I bottled it up nonetheless. Then I got fooled again. Maybe it's ME for not being able to realize a succubus on sight, or my gullibility; there's 1000 things you can blame on me, I can blame myself a lot, and I have. When I say something snapped, I guess I also meant that I finally stopped blaming myself.

Yes, I'm to blame for my own happiness, and it's my responsibility to chase that happiness, whether it's stay or leave, but if I've learned anything about myself, it's simply that I cannot be blamed for someone else's lying and cheating. I know a lot of people who "justify" cheating, and I recall making a long post in response to another about "justifications" and some really though-provoking conclusions to those thoughts, but in the end, it doesn't matter- if someone cheats, they cheated. All the excuses in the world are still excuses. They could have broken it off first. They made a commitment and broke it, proving themselves untrustworthy and generally a bad person. I can't think of a single instance where cheating is excusable, not one. If anybody knows one, please enlighten me. 

I think it's counterproductive to blame myself for having a "bad picker". That really seems like nonsense when you really think about it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Not really. Read Getting The Love You Want, by Hendrix; it's kind of the bible on these things. It talks about WHY you pick who you do, how to figure out the negative aspects of that and remove them, and how to change your pattern going forward so you attract, and are attracted to, healthier people.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

Kaboom said:


> I can't think of a single instance where cheating is excusable, not one. If anybody knows one, please enlighten me.


How about when one spouse has an accident and goes into a coma and it's been like 20 years with no sign of improvement?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

> I think it's counterproductive to blame myself for having a "bad picker".


This, I have a problem with. How can it be counterproductive to figure out why you seek out messed up people? If you figure it out, you can STOP DOING IT!

And is it all their fault, if you merely just keep picking people with a bent toward cheating? Maybe. Maybe not. 

I was really talking about taking a good look at how you are when you are with women; there are things men (and women) do and don't do that can sow the seeds for an unhealthy relationship. Some of it is in your control. For example (not saying this is you, I don't know you, just an example), if you are a Nice Guy and the woman determines you're a pushover and needy, she will lose respect for you, and other men may start to look more attractive. So you can educated yourself on what a Nice Guy is and how to stop being one. IME, the #1 thing women want from their man is for him to be confident and not be weak - quickest way for her to fall out of love with him is if he is the opposite; probably a primordial thing. So if she pushes, and he lets her, well, there goes the relationship.

I don't know what you are like, but if just about every relationship you've had ended up the same way, it's a safe bet that SOME part of how you participated in it helped you reach the same ending each time. If you were to read, maybe attend IC, and really get to know yourself, you'd probably figure out what those things are, and then you can work on changing it so you become the kind of guy women strive to keep.


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## Kaboom (Feb 6, 2013)

lenzi said:


> How about when one spouse has an accident and goes into a coma and it's been like 20 years with no sign of improvement?


Then I think the spouse in the coma has worse problems than a cheating wife.... I knew when I was typing that, that I should have used the description "realistic" in there lol.


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## Kaboom (Feb 6, 2013)

Turnera,
It's a fine line to walk. Yeah, I used to be a "niceguy", and believe me, I learned what that was, realized my faults, and made the necessary changes. However, I'm still a Nice Guy, just not a niceguy.. if you catch my meaning- I'm laid back, non-aggressive, and more than anything, I am myself- content, happy, confident, etc.. I refuse to be an alpha-male or jockstrap just because I want women to cherish me more. If a woman is that shallow, then I don't want her anyways, you know?

Like I said, it's a fine line, but "niceguys" let women walk all over them. I used to, but don't anymore. I was merely saying that I refuse to blame myself when someone else cheats- that's their problem, and the fact that they did it bears no responsibility onto me. They cheated, not me. They have proven that they feel cheating is justified, under the right circumstances. Such circumstances are in the eye of the beholder, now aren't they? I prefer to take a black and white approach to that- either someone cheats, or they don't. Nothing wrong with that, and again, I stress- if someone does cheat- I'm not letting them blame that on me, and I most certainly am not going to ever blame myself again.


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## oldgeezer (Sep 8, 2012)

doubletrouble said:


> OP, I can relate, but I've had different results.
> 
> Every LTR I've been in I was cheated on, including the current one.
> 
> ...


I don't think it's your "picker" nearly as much as it's YOU attracting them. Overbearing and controlling men make beelines toward women who are vulnerable and able to be manipulated. 

Women make beelines toward men who they believe they can manipulate and use. 

I don't mean all women or all men, just "certain types". The only thing wrong with your "picker" is that, like many of us, we tend to pick those who are there, and often, those are the wrong kind. 

This is, I think, a major component of what's happend to both you and the OP.


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

Self Deception - 
You cannot imagine that you contribute to a problem because you cannot see the impact of your behavior on others. In your case, until it's to late.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Wish I could give FF post 100 likes. It is a gem, worth printing out and reading again and again. 

Kaboom your screen name is a warning. 

I've had some very painful experiences with men. My early post were full of rage. I am much better now. I have to give some of the credits to some very kind and helpful people in the TAM community for leading me out of that darkness. 

I can't say anything better than previous posters have done. Just want to ask you to keep posting. If you get angry express in a way that is not a personal attack. You'll get some pushback but that is good. It makes in think. 

The people who know your issues will talk you down. You will eventually be able to cope, thrive and help others who are dealing with similar problems.


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## FemBot (May 1, 2013)

The common denominator in all of these relationships was you, so you have the power to change it.

You have the power to find the women who are mentally healthy and stable, but they're only attracted to mentally healthy and stable men.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

If you don't deal with the issues that are causing you to be in toxic relationships, then you're going to continue to get involved in toxic relationships.

Your psycho detector is broken. More than that, you actually are addicted or attracted to women who are emotionally toxic. That will not go away on its own. You are going to need to go to therapy to figure out why you don't respect and love yourself. I also recommend checking out coda.org and getting hooked up with a local meeting.

The best way to get confidence is to start doing confidence building activities, manly stuff, and build and foster better relationships with other men. Do not be dependent on a woman for all of your support, especially while you are unable to mentally sift through what is healthy and what is unhealthy.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

COguy said:


> If you don't deal with the issues that are causing you to be in toxic relationships, then you're going to continue to get involved in toxic relationships.
> 
> Your psycho detector is broken. More than that*, you actually are addicted or attracted to women who are emotionally toxic. That will not go away on its own. You are going to need to go to therapy to figure out why you don't respect and love yourself. I also recommend checking out coda.org and getting hooked up with a local meeting.*
> 
> *The best way to get confidence is to start doing confidence building activities, manly stuff, and build and foster better relationships with other men. Do not be dependent on a woman for all of your support, especially while you are unable to mentally sift through what is healthy and what is unhealthy.*


THIS^^^.
And this for men who are recovering from relationships with abusive women and the non-abusive family and friends who love them | Shrink4Men

You are the common denominator in all of these relationships.
You need to take responsibility for yourself, and your bad choices FIRST, then you can move on to a more healthy relationship dynamic.


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## Kaboom (Feb 6, 2013)

I'd be a liar if I said that it sits well with me that I'm to blame for the toxic women in my past. Sure, I made poor choices, especially when young, but I liken the later ones like this:

for 20 years, I had 4 car accidents. All happened years apart, and in 4 vastly different cars. The stunning statistic in all of them was that not only was I not at fault for any of them, but in every single case, I was at a stop at a red light and rear ended by people not paying attention. Not once was I labeled at fault, nor in any way able to avoid the accidents. Now, can you say the only thing that is the same is me, then apply some blame towards me? Sure, you can say that, but it doesn't make it true.

I've a brooder- I ponder really deep issues, both personal, financial, political, and even scientific. I've given great consideration over the years to the concept that I just chose poorly- and like I said, in my past, that was most certainly true. But from my later 20's and on (marriage and the previous relationship), I like to think I was very reserved and chose well. I honestly believe the relationship before my marriage was simply the victim of circumstance, and can chalk it up as one of those rare out-of-my-control and not my choice things in life, but the marriage one has me a bit pissed. She deceived me, it's really that simple- she pretended to be something she wasn't and dramatically changed after the ring hit her finger. It's that simple. I thought I had a winner, and I ended up with a liar. 

I reflect upon myself- I'm a decent guy, but I'm also quite well-balanced, regardless that I got crappy here a few times, can anyone else say they've never got crappy on the internet? I like myself, in fact, I love myself. I love my outlook, my deep thought, my social discourses.. I enjoy life, and enjoy many hobbies. I take pleasure in small things as well as large. 

I unfortunately married a woman who cannot take pleasure in anything (once we were married), and is miserable, abrasive, and only sees the bad side of everything. I cannot, and will not hold myself accountable for her misery. I did that for a while, and a few years ago- as I mentioned- I snapped.. realized I need to worry about me first, and if she can't be happy then that's her problem.

Now the reality of it is that I balance both. I do what I can to try and make her happy, and I do what I can to make myself happy. That's all I can do, but one thing I refuse to do is accept the notion that there's something wrong with me. I like MY life, I just don't like being married to a miserable person who takes joy in nothing.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

This isn't like a car accident, so your point is not taken.

How long did you wait from when you started a relationship to the point you got married.

People do not "change" when they get married. It takes time for masks to be removed, usually you don't even START to know a person until you've been in a relationship for 2 years.

You can say you're just a victim in all this, and it's all cooincidence. You'll notice it keeps happening over and over, when you decide it's no longer a cooincidence, go get some counseling.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You and the car did not 'hit it off.' The car did not have the choice to leave you or not engage with you in the first place.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

My brother kept ending up with the 'same' psycho woman, again and again, til he was in his mid 30s. The only thing that saved him - since he refused to believe he sought them out and attracted them - was that he met a woman at church who was 180 degrees different from those women and she wouldn't take no for an answer.


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## Kaboom (Feb 6, 2013)

COguy said:


> This isn't like a car accident, so your point is not taken.
> 
> How long did you wait from when you started a relationship to the point you got married.
> 
> ...


I waited four years between last LTR and meeting my current wife. I lived with her for four years prior to marrying. She changed the day we got married. 

I'm a little surprised honestly, that the blame the victim mentality is so disturbingly strong here. I mean honestly, it can't always be the victims fault. I stand by my feelings on this one. I know the difference, as I was once admittedly the "nice guy" who attracted that type, but in the case of my wife, she changed, period. I'm the same guy I was when she met me. If you want to blame me, then fine, I can't stop you.

Frankly, I don't need counseling. Anger is normal and something I rarely if ever expressed, not because I bottle stuff up and am gonna blow up people, but because I'm laid back and don't subscribe to the drama and bullcrap that most do. My recent foray onto these forums was out of frustrations built up over 10+ years of a horrible marriage. Most people I know would have been far more bitter and nasty about it.

As far as the several comments about my forum name on this and other threads, I tried several others first, like frustratedhubby or whatever, even tried a few nice names, all were taken.. the name I have was a joke that actually wasn't already taken on the forums. Many of you read WAY too much into things, which is why I honestly feel right now that maybe I shouldn't be asking a bunch of other people with marriage problems about marriage problems. 

I know I'm getting snarky, but I was thinking during lunch about how much of a blame the victim society we've become.. and the bigger problem started to emerge. We blame rape victims. We blame people who get robbed for carrying cash. We blame everyone when things go horribly wrong for them, and tend to ignore the wrong-dooers who actually perpetrated the wrong.

I think counseling is needed, but not on my end.


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## Kaboom (Feb 6, 2013)

Trenton said:


> Kaboom in reading your thread I thought of two things. The first is the below story that Halien from the boards first introduced me to:
> 
> An old Cherokee told his grandson: “My son, there is a battle between two wolves inside us all. One is evil. It is anger, jealousy, greed, and resentment, inferiority, lies and ego. The other is good. It is joy, peace, love, hope, humility, kindness, empathy, and truth.”
> 
> ...


Oh I don't disagree. And I've seen that quote before. I'd leave tomorrow if it weren't for circumstances way out of my control. I stay for the benefit of my child. It's that simple. My child isn't normal, and needs a LOT of extra care, something that would be turned upside down if I left, with or without the child. There is no win, and I get that. 

I was simply airing out my frustrations here- and apologizing to the women I vented on. That job is done. Nobody here, and no counselor can fix what is wrong here. I'm disappointed, frustrated, and angry (here) when discussing the problems, but when I walk away from this computer, I'm my normal self, and I do feed my inner child, happy gilmour, or whatever else. You did see where I mentioned that I have hobbies, I have a life. She doesn't, and that's her own fault. Her misery is self-inflicted and for 10 years, I've tried to help her, and she is insistent on failure and being dismal. I no longer subscribe to it, nor helping her.

Like I said, I was just frustrated after a string of fights- came here, vented, and that's pretty much, that. I am a victim, but I'm not going to play the victim- it's a losing game anyways, as I noted in my previous post. I'm going to go play frisbee, then maybe take a bike ride, then spend the evening with my child. That makes me happy.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

You're take is so wishy washy I don't know how to respond to it....other than to say your thread title, that YOU chose, is "Ok, maybe it is me"

I'm just agreeing with you...


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Who you are today is what counts.
You haven't changed? 
You sure have. And for the better.

Looks like it's your wife that did not change. She has not "grown" to want to be happy, or do what she needs to do in order to BE happy, herself.

What is anger?
Your soul in pain.

Boundaries are what make the difference between a victim and being real. Choosing to protect your happiness with boundaries, or choosing to make excuses to yourself for not doing so. 

I can "out victim" you anyday. I got that trait covered. 


My problem was not taking control of MY life, it was letting go of the concept that I had any control over anyone else. That's what the anger was. That's what being a victim is about. PIssed off that you cannot make someone DO something.
Pissed off that your happiness somehow got affected by another person. 

Yes, you own your happiness. Don't let that go.

Letting the anger go means giving up control over the rest of the world. If you are free to be happy and live your life, then so are they. You really do only own YOUR life. Let the rest go. 

It's not your place to judge everyone else. Since you cannot control anyone else, it's a losing battle you will never win. 

True inner happiness means you won't judge how others live. It doesn't matter to you. You won't get emotionally attached to someone who doesn't know how to love, because your boundaries will prevent that. You know you deserve better, and you won't waste time on it. 

Doesn't mean you need to get divorced. You are free to live however you want. But the anger is yours. I think it's remarkable that you posted as such in the first place. Good to read.


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## oregonmom (Jan 6, 2012)

Hi kaboom,

I get you are feeling like the victim and like you are getting picked on. I have been there. After all, things would be peachy keen if the other person just shaped up, stopped doing stupid sh!t and being an azz. 

I don't think anyone is trying to blame you for your failed relationships. I do think it is important you acknowledge that you might not have the best taste in women. So what? That doesnt make you the "bad guy" in any way. It is easy enough to fix if you just acknowledge it. 

I have a horrible track record and a bad picker. My H has done all kinds of sh!tty things to me. It's not my fault he did it. There are lots of things I did do wrong though. I ignored my gut feeling that he was trouble. I gave a lot of empty threats and allowed him to walk all over me. I rarely voiced my displeasure but it did seep out in my attitude. All coping mechanisms, and I don't think most people would blame me for my behavior. 

Those are not qualities I want to have though going forward. Those things can sabotage a healthy relationship. I looked at common denominators in people I chose. I don't want to make the same mistakes going forward, I've had enough.

You can't change anyone else but yourself. You will feel a lot better and you won't have to bang your head against the wall trying to change them.


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## oldgeezer (Sep 8, 2012)

Kaboom said:


> I waited four years between last LTR and meeting my current wife. I lived with her for four years prior to marrying. She changed the day we got married.
> 
> I'm a little surprised honestly, that the blame the victim mentality is so disturbingly strong here.


There's a little misunderstanding here. You cannot change her. You cannot manipulate her into being what you want, or even what SHE would want to be. You cannot make anyone else happy. 

As I read this thread, I keep coming across the unspoken question of "How do I change how she acts?" Or "How do I fix this?" The answer is: You can't. 

There is only one person in this relationship you can change, you can affect, you can alter, to make your life more acceptable to you, and that's you. We're not all "blaming the victim", it's just that most of us have learned the hardest way that we start out focusing on the faults of the other half of the relationship, and we can't change that. We can only change how WE deal with things. And, you can never allow yourself to BE a victim of anything. 

In my case, it was much of the problem, though I thought most of the problem was my wife's behavior. She still has much of the same behaviors, but when I act and react differently, the outcome is different. Still, it takes two to tango, so, she has to be interested in making things work. You can assess that only when you fully understand what you're doing, how you're doing it, and why. You are the one you must understand first, then its possible to understand your relationship with someone else.

Oh, and no, she did NOT change the day you got married. She was precisely the same as before, but now your relationship was secure in her mind, and her behavior reflected her actual thoughts and what she actually wanted.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Kaboom it was a bad joke about your screen name. I can see you are not in a mood for jokes. 

I agree with you, some relationship problems are 100% one persons. I think you are being asked to think about your role not that you had any. Clearly you explored this and came to the conclusion that you did not have a role, 

So on to the next issue. People with personality disorders select normal people to have relationships. Who but a good decent person woukd put up with their pathology. 

What do you think is wrong with your wife? Do you know about her family and relationships in childhood and previous intimate relationships. 

It is interesting that she hid for 4 years and changed abruptly. I think it is important to find out what is wrong with her. Knowledge is power. 

First, you know it's not you and 2nd, if you plan to stay, you will know what your life will be like, 3rd, if you leave ypu'll know what your life will be like.


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## Kaboom (Feb 6, 2013)

thumbs up to the last 4 responses- thanks.

Catherine-
When I first came to the forums, I had posted in other forums about financial issues and additionally my wife's mental issues. She's apparently got the whole package of issues- mental, physical, and sexual abuse as a child, bi-polar disorder, GAD, and depression. All of these things were definitely milder when we were younger- and once we got married (and immediately preggo), all of that came back onto her, or seemed to amplify considerably. It's worth noting that she did intentionally and successfully hide these issues from me prior to marriage, which incidentally tells me something important: That she does understand it and at least has some control-

I'm not so cold as to realize that something about getting married and having a child triggered a lot of it. I don't know why, and I don't think it matters as much. She's on meds now, but they were only really effective the first couple of months, and it's been three years. I've unfortunately been shouldered with those problems.

What kills me about it all is that she does know and understand the difference between right and wrong, but she then goes and does things that she knows are destructive to the relationship.. kind of a biting the hand that feeds her- not that I think she should bow down to me and worship me or anything, but quite the contrary- I've done nothing but try to help her through all those issues, yet she constantly goes for my throat and intentionally disrespects me in several different ways.

While part of me sees that she's "sick" mentally, the other part just cannot understand anymore how she can be so hateful, resentful, and outright mean. And it's pretty obvious that over time, I've come to resent her. Part of me just hates her, while the other part of me feels bad for her, and I even feel guilty about it, knowing that she's sick and according to her psychologist and counselors, I'm supposed to coddle and support her, which is a direct violation of the nice guy rules.. 

Do you see the conflict? It's ponderous and frustrating. Throw our child into the mix and it becomes downright exhausting. 

This is why I broke away mentally, and even physically a long time ago, got my own hobbies, and focus on my own happiness (when not around her). It's pathetic, I agree, but like I said, I don't _wan't_ to be the victim.. and I'm doing what I can to not be _that_ person


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Kaboom - my goodness when I read this I understand why you are so angry. I would even say you are not angry enough. However I know anger will give you temporary relief but it also cloud your ability to take action. Action is called for here. 

There is so much here. Let me count them, you have a wife with mental, and physical illnesses; she is abusive to you; you have a child in the home; you are a good and responsible man. 

Moreover, you married a woman who decieved you about her mental status. Does she have family and do they know she is mentally ill? Do you have the support of friends and family? 

There is the matter of how much longer can you stand by her. Good people find it very hard to leave an intolerable situation that came out of a commitment. The guilt can be paralyzingly. 

So now what? Stay or go. You can arrive at a decision that will assuage your guilt and relieve an intolerable situation. I have some suggestion that may be useful to consider. 

What do you need to stay? No abusive behavior, optimal medical and phychologically therapy, your wife's cooperation with your plan, involment of her family in her care, assistance from a treatment center, control over your daughters care and living arrangement. 

Without most of these, I don't think there is a way that you can help her. If you keep trying without sucess you will eventually run out of the ability to function and be no help to her, your daughter and yourself. 

Start with finding resources - family, treatment center, better involment of her physician. First and foremost, she has to be onboard. 

Document your wife's verbal abuse of you and the state of the home environment and her care of your child. Get copies of her medical records, physical and mental. 

Give her a chance to accept your plan and be compliment with her care. Get the family (if any) involved, the medical assistance and get her records. 

If there is resistence or lack of movement, and you have given it your all, you will have to make an orderly exit. You may be asking yourself how can abandon her?

You aren't really, you gave it your best effort to prevent your eventual mental breakdown. There is someone who needs you - your daughter. 

When it's time, get legal assistance and begin procedures to get custody of your daughter. I have read that it is difficult for a father to get primary custody. 

Before letting anyone know what you are doing get legal help with this. There are also good Fathers of divorce resources on the Internet. 

Finally, there may be a few members of TAM who are active in these organizations and can help. They may not see this thread. 

If you would like, you can start a thread in the mens clubhouse with a title that would attract the notice of these members. 

Sorry this is so long but I have been thinking of you and wanted to put it all down.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Catherine, your post was amazing. That's why we love you so much.

Kaboom,
It's really really hard for me to write this part. I mean only well.

Dysfunctional people do well with co-dependents and fixers.

This:
What kills me about it all is that she does know and understand the difference between right and wrong, but she then goes and does things that she knows are destructive to the relationship.. kind of a biting the hand that feeds her- not that I think she should bow down to me and worship me or anything, but quite the contrary-* I've done nothing but try to help her through all those issues, yet she constantly goes for my throat and intentionally disrespects me in several different ways*.

While part of me sees that she's "sick" mentally, the other part just cannot understand anymore how she can be so hateful, resentful, and outright mean. And it's pretty obvious that over time, I've come to resent her. Part of me just hates her, while the other part of me feels bad for her, and I even feel guilty about it, knowing that she's sick and according to her psychologist and counselors, I'm supposed to coddle and support her, which is a direct violation of the nice guy rules


This is victim speak. Look up the drama triangle. It explains quite a bit. A fixer will stay and try try try. When it doesn't work... they feel anger and pain. 

And... so what. It is what happened. You have a big heart. You only did what you thought you should.

It is not your fault. 

This is hard advice to follow, but boundaries will help. It seems so counter productive! But it`s more helpful to let people with many issues fall a few times. It helps them to gain their own confidence, and go forward with owning their own lives. 

Like Catherine said, support is out there. For you. To help her see her issues. But that is all you can do. Push her in the right direction. She may never seek help. 

It`s a sad place to be in. To realise your spouse is not really capable of being a spouse. What you do about that is up to you.


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## Kaboom (Feb 6, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> Kaboom - my goodness when I read this I understand why you are so angry. I would even say you are not angry enough. However I know anger will give you temporary relief but it also cloud your ability to take action. Action is called for here.


LOL can't disagree there!



Catherine602 said:


> Moreover, you married a woman who decieved you about her mental status. Does she have family and do they know she is mentally ill? Do you have the support of friends and family?


That is a huge part of the problem- she disassociated herself completely from her family. She did try reconciliation a few times, but it turned out about as bad as you can possibly imagine. The fact that all of the elders in her family are abusers and still tried to maintain control over her was half of the problem and the other half was the siblings her age, who all still live at home and are now a willing part of that system.. her siblings even deny the abuse existed or ever happened. The parents deny it also. For a while I used to wonder if she was lying about it, and while a person can never be absolutely sure, I'm pretty darn sure- people just don't wake up screaming (not as much now, but it still happens) for no reason.

Unfortunately, as I mentioned, she had alienated most of my family as well just by being all the things I've summed up previously. When I tried to explain to my family elders about her past, her parents had already gotten to them, having them believing she made it all up, and is nothing but a lazy, ungrateful, petulant child of a woman. The few family members I have that do stick up for her are spread across the country, there's nobody local that can or will help, nor would we accept help just because of the friction in the past.

Friends all gone too. When I say she's abrasive, I'm really not kidding. She wasn't always this way, or I would have run screaming long before marriage lol.

But yeah- there's absolutely zero support system here for either of us.



Catherine602 said:


> There is the matter of how much longer can you stand by her. Good people find it very hard to leave an intolerable situation that came out of a commitment. The guilt can be paralyzingly.


This I understand. Making the decision to leave is easy, if not for that one thing (will address below). 




Catherine602 said:


> you will have to make an orderly exit. You may be asking yourself how can abandon her?


Yes, this weighs heavily on me, as she has no way of supporting herself- she just doesn't make enough money and has no life experience in taking care of herself, much less herself and a special needs child.



Catherine602 said:


> You aren't really, you gave it your best effort to prevent your eventual mental breakdown. There is someone who needs you - your daughter.
> 
> When it's time, get legal assistance and begin procedures to get custody of your daughter. I have read that it is difficult for a father to get primary custody.
> 
> ...


And that's the critical mass in all of it- If I left her, and lost the custody battle, it would quite literally wreck my daughters world, possibly doom her for life. I don't say that lightly, either. I've reconciled with her every time we fought and decided to split simply because I weigh the risk and cannot take the chance.

I know how I sound right now, believe me. It's like talking to a wall- I want to end it. I want to leave. I want out in the worst way. I've come to realize that I just hate her. But there's a risk that is bigger than myself that I simply must consider. I know I stand a good chance to succeed simply because of the psychological history, which is documented, but at the same time, there's enough cases that the mother still gets the children when she's clearly unfit to warrant caution, if not in my case to warrant not invoking action.. 

But you are correct Catherine- I can't see myself taking much more before I just lose it and leave, taking my child with me. I'd bet my bottom dollar that she would call the cops and claim I abducted the child. laugh. Yeah, she might.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I believe she would be eligible for public assistance or SSI. You may be overwhelmed at this point with all of the decisions and stress. 

It may help to take it slow and take one thing at a time. it may give you focus and small accomplishments add up. 

For instance, since custody is a central issue, you could explore what it takes to insure that you get your daughter. 

Perhaps make contact with men active in fathers of divorce groups. They may be able to guide you on the things you need to do to gain custody. She may be a horrible wife and person but is she caring for the child? 

If you leave custodial care to your wife and she functions well then that may be taken as evidence that she has no problems with care-taking. The fact that she is not mentally stable may not have as big an impact. 

I suggest that you make sure that you are involved in every aspect in your daughters life, medical care, Drs appointment, school etc. The parent most involved in the custodial care has the best chance of gaining custody. 

You need to show that you are as capable of day to day care of your child as she is. Then the deciding point will be the parent best for the psychological well being.


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