# Friend zone or more part 2



## LonelyGuy69 (May 1, 2015)

So an update, firstly I'll post my original thread for those who haven't seen plus a little update then a twist! 

Wasn't sure if I'm allowed to post in here, sorry if not, but looking for some ladies advice on this. 
Briefly, I've known this lady for over a year now, over that time we've got to know each other, and talked a lot more, so I saw her as a friend, although one you just chat too rather than actually go out with etc. recently she asked me to hers for a coffee, and we talked for while, now not having been this close to a woman one on one for a while was nice, but after I left, I got thinking, she did on occasion twist her haver hair, and point her foot while she crossed her leg, ( I heard these were signs of flirting ) but left it, she's also said that I could pop in anytime for a coffee, as she said she saw me passing but I never knocked. She deals in antiques and when I was there last she mentioned a place she'd like to go, and I asked where it was, her face kinda lit up and she said shall we go? I'm not sure if it's the thought of going, or going with me that made her smile? She showed me some books of stuff she collects, and we got quite close as we leant into them, and our hands got very close, I thought for a second about 'accidentally ' touching hers but didn't. I guess what I'm asking is how do I find out if she might like me, without asking her outright, and risk losing her friendship, altogether. Which I'd hate, as I get upset if I don't see her, and smile when I see her coming. Any advice would be great. Thanks

So I went round again, today, I've had a bad couple of weeks and just needed a break and someone to talk too, I also knew that a family member of hers had been ill so knocked to see how she was. She said she was going to see her sis later but if I wanted I could come in for a coffee, and I did, as usual we download our problems to each other and talked for a while, again she would play with her hair, feet pointing etc, and unusually asked if I wanted another coffee, and I accepted. After previous encounters I'd looked up on body language and what it may mean, and this time she flicked her hair, like with her hand to push it out. She also asked about a issue that I'd mentioned some weeks ago, and as a result needed to see a surgeon, which showed she does listen to me.lol... Nothing happened, as usual and I left. 

Now I haven't mentioned that she has a bf, the reason for this being I wanted to gauge everyone's response as if it was two single people. And as much as I like this woman, I wouldn't do anything to disrupt her relationship, after all it is just two friends having coffee, so perhaps my perception of her flirting is nothing more than her just being friendly. Perhaps she isn't happy in her relationship and is feeling good about someone listening to her and asking how she feels! Perhaps she sees me as a potential partner and is so making her feelings known? I'd be interested to know what people think now. Thanks again.


----------



## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

LonelyGuy69 said:


> *Now I haven't mentioned that she has a bf, **the reason for this being I wanted to gauge everyone's response as if it was two single people*.


You should have STARTED with that.

No. 

Just no.

The fact that yu wanted to gauge reactions based on an alternate relatiy tells you all you need to know. 

NO. 

because fact is, she is taken. And I don't buy for a minute this:



LonelyGuy69 said:


> And as much as I like this woman, I wouldn't do anything to disrupt her relationship


You're already doing that. By letting this go on as you have and having zero respect for the fact she has a boyfriend.

Granted, that's on her, too.

I will say this: how would you feel if you were her boyfriend and she was doing this with some dude "Friend" who clearly wanted to get with her? 

Answer that honestly.

Well?


----------



## LonelyGuy69 (May 1, 2015)

Honestly! I guess I'd be mad, anyone would, unless they aren't really into the relationship. 
It's your opinion if you don't believe that I won't disrupt the relationship, like I said I'd rather have her as a friend that not at all, it's quite possible my feelings are borne out of the fact I've been down for quite a while, and that my reading of her apparent flirting is nothing more than habit, and friendliness. Yes your right, it is also on her, if she is flirting why? Does she feel unappreciated, and is now getting attention and someone is listening to her. It's not my fault if she feels this way, if all I've done is listen to her? There must be some fault in her relationship for her to feel this way! I'm sure lots of people both male and female fall in some way for a friend, be they single or attached, but don't act on it for whatever reason. Just because I'm a guy doesn't mean I just want to get into her knickers, it's quite possible to have a crush or feelings for someone and not act on them. 
I'm not going to lose a friend that I have been there for or has been there for me, on the basis that she may be flirting. The reason I did it the way I did was purely to see what people's reaction was to her actions, and it's interesting to see how one change can change the perception of people. If you read my original post what was your initial thoughts? Before you read the rest? And if it was the other way round would you be accusing me of having an emotional affair?


----------



## Muse1976 (Apr 25, 2015)

Initial thoughts are she's interested. 

Knowing the whole story, I'm sorry, but you are meddling. No if's and's or but's about it. Her behavior is rather unsavory as well.


Especially after reading your other post in your other thread. 

*"Hi, firstly I had an opportunity to touch her hand but froze, for fear of rejection, so I'm kind of building up to it. But I will use the time when we go out to see how she is. I am 40 she is 45, has two kids 16 and 11, one of each. We have both been married, for a long time, which is why I'm so out of practice with the whole flirting thing. I've been hurt in relationships before so my fear of rejection is quite high. I'm not sure what OLD is? But if she did see it, maybe it would make things easier lol. Thank you both for your input, I'd be glad of anymore, like a subtle way of letting her no I like her. Thanks"*


----------



## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

I'm a believer that unless someone is married or equivalent commitment, all is fair in love and war.

I'm also a believer in karma. What goes around comes around.

Think about what kind of person encourages another when they are in a committed relationship. Pay attention to that little voice that scurries away when you shine that light upon it and act accordingly.


----------



## LonelyGuy69 (May 1, 2015)

sapientia said:


> I'm a believer that unless someone is married or equivalent commitment, all is fair in love and war.
> 
> I'm also a believer in karma. What goes around comes around.
> 
> Think about what kind of person encourages another when they are in a committed relationship. Pay attention to that little voice that scurries away when you shine that light upon it and act accordingly.


 I see where your coming from, but with your first point, I'm not sure that it is a committed relationship, from what she says. And yes Karma is a *****. 
So I took your advice, at the school run where we usually chat I decided that I wouldn't acknowledge her or approach her. She didn't come over to me, not sure if she smiled or waved as I didn't look. Now her not approaching isn't unusual, and I know she is having some problems so maybe she didn't want to talk. Or like I said maybe it is all just in my head, and I'm reading too much into it. Perhaps she isn't sure if I'm interested as I know she has a bf, after all I've never made any kind of move. So I'm going to back off a bit and see what happens. It'll be hard because apart from how I feel, she is good to talk too, and gives me a break from the crap going on. Thanks for your reply.


----------



## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

LonelyGuy69 said:


> I see where your coming from, but with your first point, I'm not sure that it is a committed relationship, from what she says. And yes Karma is a *****.


So she says it's just a casual relationship with im? Open relationship? 

Could be she is really into her boyfriend and has you super in the friend zone. Or maybe she does like you and wants to dump her boyfriend. Has she flirted with you?

I say you are still playing with fire though - she is in a relationship.


----------



## LonelyGuy69 (May 1, 2015)

Jellybeans said:


> So she says it's just a casual relationship with im? Open relationship?
> 
> Could be she is really into her boyfriend and has you super in the friend zone. Or maybe she does like you and wants to dump her boyfriend. Has she flirted with you?
> 
> I say you are still playing with fire though - she is in a relationship.


I've stated in my post that I think she has given off signs of flirting, but wasn't sure if she was or not, like the playing, flicking of her hair, asking me in for coffee, suggesting a trip somewhere. And looking from the outside these could all just be her natural way, she could just be a good friend that enjoys my company, that's listens and gives advice, rather than judges. Yes there are times when she moans about her Bf, haven't we all at times, like he doesn't really help out, if she has a few money issues she has to cut back and he won't help out. Briefly they been together 5 years, he seems to have no intention of marrying her, and as she said he practically lives there, but still has his own place? But won't make the commitment to move in, even without the need to marry! 
To me that seems a bit strange, not sure how it looks from a woman's viewpoint though. 
Yes she might be just super friendly, and I could live with that, after all I've done it before, where I've had feelings I've had to keep inside, but eventually those friendships run there course, as this one might. And I'd feel bad not being there for her, if she is a friend and downloading on me helps her feel better, she might not have that if I stopped contact. 
If I didn't feel strongly about this, or just wanted to get in her knickers I would've just made it obvious how I feel to her. But I didn't because sometimes others needs come before your own. No matter how much it might hurt.


----------



## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Difficult thing about approaching 'taken' people (I don't believe anyone owns anyone -- including marriage but I digress) is how to gauge interest and navigate personal ethics.

She could just like attention, she might be thinking of leaving him, or is happy and just friendly.... anyone's guess at this point.

If you can't detach, then perhaps next time you are together at an event, just say hi in a friendly way. Ask how things are going. If she seems interested I would just ask:

"Hey, not to be inappropriate, but are you (still) seeing someone? No disrespect intended, but if you are available I'd love to take you for coffee sometime".

Pretty straightforward, IMO. 

Example: I had a fellow in a coffee shop asked me this and I smiled and waggled my wedding ring at him. He apologized but said that if I was ever single to look him up (which I thought was a bit pushy but he was so charming in his delivery I just thanked him and left).


----------



## LonelyGuy69 (May 1, 2015)

The last couple of days I've tried to detach, not making eye contact or an attempt to engage in conversation, today as she walked past I did catch her looking and she gave a little smile! I know she's still with him, and she does mention him a lot, which you would normally associate with someone that is showing they are taken, but it's not things like how thoughtful or great he is, so perhaps she is just super friendly. I did think that perhaps by subtly touching her like brushing her hand or touching her arm as we spoke to see how she reacts. If she moved away not interested, if she is accepting then she is. Maybe if she isn't would make it much easier so I can concentrate on being a friend. It's kinda hard to know what to do.


----------



## LonelyGuy69 (May 1, 2015)

No doubt I'd be interested if she was, but I would make sure that she finishes her relationship first! If I was after just sex, sure it wouldn't bother me if she was attached or not, but I know her better and see her more than just a casual fling! 
Having feelings for someone can only disrupt the relationship if those feelings are reciprocated, if not we are just friends. Like I've said I'd rather have her as a friend than not at all.


----------



## Morcoll (Apr 22, 2015)

I think the most dishonest thing here is not acknowledging your true intentions, neither to her or even more importantly to yourself. 

Fact is, you DO want to bang this broad and you wont admit it, feigning the 'friendship is so important' thing. 

It's easy to see right through it and I am sure she does too. 

Very likely she likes the attention and is not going to fully discourage you until you have the balls to make those intentions clear.


----------



## LonelyGuy69 (May 1, 2015)

sargon said:


> But you see that's just it. You are not making sure she finishes her relationship first. You are trying to make moves on a woman who has a boyfriend.
> 
> Do the right thing. Back off and stop trying to second guess her possible motivations towards you. Backing off includes not touching her or talking to her in flirtatious ways.
> 
> Now I realize from your posts that you don't think you are acting in appropriately. So ask yourself this question. "If this was my girlfriend and some guy was doing what I am doing, would it bother me?"


I'm not making moves, I've done nothing to suggest I want more than friendship, I've listened to her problems and offered her advice, so my feelings have been kept hidden, as far as I can tell, I haven't touched her or flirted purely been there for her. And she obviously appreciates that otherwise I'm sure she wouldn't ask me for coffee, talk so openly to me. Perhaps yes I'd feel uneasy if my GF was doing this with another guy, but I'd hope that if she was happy with me shed deal with any advances appropriately, and be honest enough to tell me. If she didn't then maybe that would mean she is not into the relationship and wants out.


----------



## LonelyGuy69 (May 1, 2015)

Morcoll said:


> I think the most dishonest thing here is not acknowledging your true intentions, neither to her or even more importantly to yourself.
> 
> Fact is, you DO want to bang this broad and you wont admit it, feigning the 'friendship is so important' thing.
> 
> ...


My true intentions, may well be to get with this woman, but if that's not going to happen, then I'd happily keep her as a friend. To say I want to BANG her, is a bit crude, I'm not 20 I'm 40, and so not looking for a fling I'm wanting something more. If it's with this woman or not. Do I want to sleep with her? I'd be lying if I said otherwise, but that's not why I speak to her. 
I've said before it's quite possible to have a friend of the opposite sex, sometimes feelings get misinterpreted and you begin to wonder what if?, we are there to download on each other, nothing more has happened, and might never happen. For all I know being able to download on me may be making her relationship better as she will not feel upset, or angry, or frustrated by things as she has already talked them over with me.


----------



## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

LonelyGuy69 said:


> I'm not making moves, I've done nothing to suggest I want more than friendship, I've listened to her problems and offered her advice, so my feelings have been kept hidden, as far as I can tell, I haven't touched her or flirted purely been there for her.


If you think this

" I did think that perhaps by subtly touching her like brushing her hand or touching her arm as we spoke to see how she reacts."

is doing nothing, you are deluding yourself. It's called kino.. and its disrespectful. If the guy in the coffee shop designed to touch me the way you propose, I'd be offended.

Check you navel, LG.


----------



## LonelyGuy69 (May 1, 2015)

sapientia said:


> If you think this
> 
> " I did think that perhaps by subtly touching her like brushing her hand or touching her arm as we spoke to see how she reacts."
> 
> ...


The thing is I didn't do it, nor have I tried. I know she is in a relationship, and deep down I know there is little chance of anything happening, I guess being friends is as far as it goes. Like I said I've backed off, and won't see her for a few days. But it's hard, do I just stay friends, tell her or walk away? If I just all of a sudden ignored her I'm sure she'd wonder why, and maybe ask, so if it was you and you liked a friend of yours but couldn't say anything how would you deal with it?


----------



## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

LonelyGuy69 said:


> so if it was you and you liked a friend of yours but couldn't say anything how would you deal with it?


 To say something but in a respectful way
I made my suggestion in an earlier post...


----------



## LonelyGuy69 (May 1, 2015)

I'm not really sure what id say! I've spent the last few days avoiding her, and to be honest it's been really hard. Not just because of how I feel but also because I know she's having some troubles and want to be there for her. 
About 20 years, I was working with a single mum, and we'd been talking a while, I never knew she had a bf until the day I told her that I'd be there for her if she wanted. The next day her bf turned up, I'm guessing to try and kick my ass, as it happened I convinced him the trouble is in his behaviour not hers, or mine. He left and they sorted things out. Maybe that's what will or is happening here. In my life most of my closest friends have been female, maybe because they are easier to open up too about things. And that's might be what we are having here. Two people of the opposite sex can be friends, and yes on occasion one might fall for the other. But if I'm to be honest how do I tell her without losing the friendship I have?


----------



## LonelyGuy69 (May 1, 2015)

sargon said:


> Don't think you can tell her you love her without scaring her away.


 That's my predicament, no matter my feelings for her, whether they are genuine or a crush, because she pays me attention, I really don't want to lose her as a friend. We seem to help each other, as we can talk over things that maybe we can't with other people! I really don't want to just walk away.


----------



## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Not to minimize your feelings LG but you don't really know her, so how can you love her? I would suggest you love the *idea* of her -- not the same thing.

Probably best to detach and date other women. You are way too emotionally invested in someone who is seeing someone else.



sapientia said:


> "Hey, not to be inappropriate, but are you (still) seeing someone? No disrespect intended, but if you are available I'd love to take you for coffee sometime".


If you insist however this^ is unlikely to get you in much trouble.


----------



## LonelyGuy69 (May 1, 2015)

sapientia said:


> Not to minimize your feelings LG but you don't really know her, so how can you love her? I would suggest you love the *idea* of her -- not the same thing.
> 
> Probably best to detach and date other women. You are way too emotionally invested in someone who is seeing someone else.
> 
> ...


----------



## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Ignore isn't the same as detach. Anyway, I don't have anything else to add. My way of solution is to be generally straightforward, which you don't seem to resonate with, and that's cool. Perhaps someone else will have some better ideas for you. Good luck.


----------



## Morcoll (Apr 22, 2015)

LonelyGuy69 said:


> My true intentions, may well be to get with this woman, but if that's not going to happen, then I'd happily keep her as a friend. To say I want to BANG her, is a bit crude, I'm not 20 I'm 40, and so not looking for a fling I'm wanting something more. If it's with this woman or not. Do I want to sleep with her? I'd be lying if I said otherwise, but that's not why I speak to her.
> I've said before it's quite possible to have a friend of the opposite sex, sometimes feelings get misinterpreted and you begin to wonder what if?, we are there to download on each other, nothing more has happened, and might never happen. For all I know being able to download on me may be making her relationship better as she will not feel upset, or angry, or frustrated by things as she has already talked them over with me.


See, there you are not being honest with yourself-- or her-- again. 

Either you want her as a friend (not the case) or you want more. 

I suggest you ask another woman on a date, pronto. You've got one-it is and it is too the point you have convinced yourself you would hide your true intentions just to have the chance to be around her. You are not doing anyone any favors. Intention is everything, and she is aware of it by the way.


----------



## LonelyGuy69 (May 1, 2015)

Ok so I'll get to the point! 
I took the advice to stop talking and detach from her. Went well for a few days no waving, smiling etc, then the other day, her daughter was coming out of school with a friend they kept looking and giggling, I was in my car so as not to be open to her coming over. So today as she'd mentioned a close relative going in for tests I made the decision to just enquire about them, ( I'm not without caring) even if it did mean I would stop all what I'd done over the previous few days! Anyway she mentioned about her daughter and I'd said that she had been looking and laughing with her friend, turns out they were winding her mum up about talking to me, I don't know exactly what was said nor did I ask, but I left her after that. So now I'm confused, she could've just said anything but instead told
The truth, so if she does In fact no how I feel why would she do this? I guess if I'd not gone over I'd be none the wiser, but I did.


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I hope you fight well. When her bf finds out he might come looking for you.


----------



## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

LonelyGuy69 said:


> her daughter was coming out of school with a friend they kept looking and giggling, I was in my car so as not to be open to her coming over.
> 
> Anyway she mentioned about her daughter and I'd said that she had been looking and laughing with her friend, turns out they were winding her mum up about talking to me, I don't know exactly what was said nor did I ask, but I left her after that.


Oh god. So her *daughter* knows you are panting after her mom?

You don't see how messed up this all is? Allow me to paint some scenarios for you:

1. Mom is talking to daughter about you. Having a good laugh at your expense... with a friend of her daughters, no less.

2. Mom is having a good time playing you for attention.

3. Mom actually *is* interested in you, but is so immature as to be discussing this with her daughter.

Or any combination of above.

You understand how f-d up this whole thing is? There is no good outcome for you here. Best you risk looking like a laughingstock, worse you are successful at attracting this woman (whose BF also, my guess, is laughing at you too) and you "win" a woman who can't keep adult discussions between adults.

Yeah, a real class act, this woman (not). :scratchhead:


----------



## LonelyGuy69 (May 1, 2015)

sapientia said:


> Oh god. So her *daughter* knows you are panting after her mom?
> 
> You don't see how messed up this all is? Allow me to paint some scenarios for you:
> 
> ...


 I think I realised soon as she said it I'd been living a fantasy, I'd let my imagination take over, and was obviously seeing something that wasn't there. I guess being alone for a long time can do that. And you mistake friendliness for more than it actually is. It was fine at first, we would talk and it would be just that, but then when I thought I'd seen signs of something more, it just played on my mind. Thanks everyone, I think I should've listened earlier, and either just detached completely or, just kept it to chats at the school gate...


----------



## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

The more you post, the less I think of this woman. Yes, you are reacting to being lonely. Just stop talking to her, avoid her by staying in your car, etc. Go on dates with other women. Join a paid online dating site if you haven't yet.

Nothing good can come from engaging with those who seek attention and external validation from someone who isn't their partner. Same goes for those who would encourage this behaviour. Speaking from experience on this. Check your own navel why you are looking to date a woman you know is in a relationship with another man.


----------



## LonelyGuy69 (May 1, 2015)

To be honest I don't look for a relationship with women that are attached. I use to have a lot of female friends but stopped when I was married as my ex thought it was strange. im not sure why it happens, perhaps like I said before, they have been able to open up to me more than they could a partner, and as a result feel more relaxed around me, and I've seen this as flirting! Again not being attached I think these actions through more, and mistakenly have come to the wrong conclusion. Inevitably a lot of these friendships have fizzled out naturally or I see them less for other reasons. I guess having a considerate nature doesn't help, i tend to be able to listen and give others advice, yet when it comes to me all reasoning goes out the window. Which is why I find it hard to let things go, yes it's a messed up situation but on the other hand she feels down, and doesn't seem to have others to download on! Seems cruel to just walk away, yet it's the right thing to do!!!


----------



## LonelyGuy69 (May 1, 2015)

Ok so I took the decision to walk away, and not approach her, or anything, eventually she started to wave and smile or say hi, ask how I am etc, so I would engage to chat but nothing too deep, I haven't been round her house for coffee so there is never a time we've been alone. So the other day, she said I seem a bit down, I was as I'd had a bad week, people getting laid off at work etc. and I happened to mention she hadn't been looking too happy, and as her dad is unwell it was to be expected, but she also said, her bf doesn't get on with the kids and never wants to do anything. And whilst this made a bit happier, I never followed up on it, asking if they were ok? Or still together or anything. So I'm wondering if after having feelings, be they a crush or real feelings for someone, can you ever just be friends?


----------



## Kristisha (Apr 29, 2013)

I couldn't be friends with somebody that I had a crush on, what's the point? But if I have an advice for you, I agree with other posters, you should cut all the comunication with her and move on with your life, because at the moment you just can't do that, you are drawn to her

And why would would you want to be friends with her to begin with? She is in a relantionship and whatever problems she has it shouldn't concern you. She brings way to much drama into your life.

You should dating, online dating whatever suit you and build from there.


----------



## LonelyGuy69 (May 1, 2015)

Surely that's what friends are for? To talk over things, problems, be they relationship, financial or other? When I first started talking to her I knew she was in a relationship, but that shouldn't stop me, or anyone from talking and befriending a member of the opposite sex. I'd agree that my feelings have got in the way, but regardless of how I feel, she's still a friend, and if I didn't fancy her I'd still talk to her.


----------



## Kristisha (Apr 29, 2013)

Whatever floats your boat but in this particular situation I would jus back off, but you know better what works for you and if you or can not be friends with her


----------



## Julius Beastcavern (May 11, 2015)

Kristisha said:


> I couldn't be friends with somebody that I had a crush on, what's the point? But if I have an advice for you, I agree with other posters, you should cut all the comunication with her and move on with your life, because at the moment you just can't do that, you are drawn to her
> 
> And why would would you want to be friends with her to begin with? She is in a relantionship and whatever problems she has it shouldn't concern you. She brings way to much drama into your life.
> 
> You should dating, online dating whatever suit you and build from there.


QFT


----------



## Kristisha (Apr 29, 2013)

Julius Beastcavern said:


> QFT


Care to explain ?


----------



## Morcoll (Apr 22, 2015)

LonelyGuy69 said:


> Surely that's what friends are for? To talk over things, problems, be they relationship, financial or other? When I first started talking to her I knew she was in a relationship, but that shouldn't stop me, or anyone from talking and befriending a member of the opposite sex. I'd agree that my feelings have got in the way, but regardless of how I feel, she's still a friend, and if I didn't fancy her I'd still talk to her.


What this here is....is your way of rationalizing your behavior. You want more than friendship with her. It is obvious. By pretending anything else you are merely being dishonest. 

Now, I am not suggesting that you emotionally vomit your true feelings all over her. Women do not actually get turned on by this nonsense. But I would suggest you start meeting other women, going on dates, and so on. If she is available and interested she will come to you. If not, leave her alone and move on with your life. You do not want her for friendship. 

Currently, you are what is known as an orbiter.


----------

