# Working Through Disappointment



## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Just celebrated 25th wedding anniversary. Looking for help on working on my own melancholy. I realize description below qualify as "first world problems" to the extreme. But the situation is still bugging me. Outside perspective may be helpful. 

First of all, marriage is solid. Sex 2x-3x per week. Finances good. First year of empty nest (three kids, 23, 21, 19) going very well. Generally no problems. I do stray a little bit to the Nice Guy side, in the NMMNG sense. I have been doing better on that front in the past five years, but some NG tendencies creep up when not vigilant.

So, for most of this year, we've been planning a nine-day trip to Paris to celebrate anniversary. I had been looking forward to trip quite a bit. Maybe too much. I haven't had a true vacation in 18 months due mostly to me spending vacation time getting kids settled into college and sorting out senior living issues for my mother and handicapped sister. I had started viewing the trip as a milestone - a closing of 25 years of largely being a care-giver and the beginning of a period when I get to focus on what I want for a change. 

Well, the one complication in Paris trip is that middle son is doing a semester & summer abroad in England. Gone eight months. A long time without seeing him for sure. Initially, I proposed we split the trip in two, visit son for a couple days in England and then go do five or six days on our own in Paris. Before buying tix, wife suggests we spend entire time in Paris. Easier and cheaper, she say. I balk, knowing that we'll be spending some time with son in Paris, but ultimately agree when she re-assures me that he'll only be with us a "couple of days" in Paris.

Well, two weeks before the trip, wife tells me "good news" that son will be with us seven of the nine days of the trip. (Extended spring break at his English university.) My son is great, and I love spending time with him. But - frankly - I wasn't looking for another family vacation for this particular trip. I wanted a romantic weeklong anniversary getaway where I could get away from stresses of work and care-giving and just take time to focus on my wife. 

I did not go nuclear at that point, but did tell her that I was disappointed and that the decision to have join us for so long meant that trip would be "different than the one I had envisioned when first planning it." That said, in a bow to my latent NG tendencies, I decided to just go along with it and make the best of it. (Setting my preferences to the back once again, per usual. )

But I decided to try to make the best of it, and - indeed - I think (and wife has concurred) that I was a good, upbeat travel companion. I didn't want to ruin a $5,000 trip for her just because I didn't get my way. 

That said, I was pretty much quietly miserable the entire week. Sleeping quarters were tight with son around. I hung off the side of a small queen while wife still complained that I was crowding her space. I snore and wife is light sleeper, so I avoided the things that make me snore - rich food and wine - so that she could sleep well. And not much window for intimate times with son around.

So I spent a week in Paris on my anniversary trip, eating like a bird, drinking no wine and having no sex. I felt like the world's biggest NG loser. Meanwhile, I'm trooping around going to a bunch of art museums that I could care less about every day. Happy f--ing vacation to me!

Wife knows that I was disappointed in the trip, but I have not completely shared just how bad it was for me. Of course, friends ask us about the trip and I get the opportunity to smile and grit my teeth as I relive it again and again. 

The experience revived latent relationship feelings in which I perceive her to consistently prioritize role of mother to her role as "wife." I've spent two decades taking a back seat, and I'm just tired of it. Even when I expressly describe the outcome I want to see, I'm ignored by her. 

I recognize that - at some point - I will be grateful to have had an extra week vacation with my son. He won't want to hang with us forever, of course. But it sure doesn't look that way, viewing it from today's perspective.

I'd appreciate any suggestions on how to chill and just accept what has happened here. But - even two weeks after returning - my resentment is not abating. I just feel like however hard I work (I work full-time in demanding consulting job - she has part-time 10 hour a week duties) that rewards in life are not meant to be for me. Like I said, first-world problems. But they're problems nonetheless.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Have you thought about getting into therapy? First it may give you some tools to cope with, and the ability to vent constructively about, your obvious resentment. Second, it might be very helpful for you to learn how to speak up for yourself. You wanted the trip to be one thing, your wife and son made other arrangements. But you also knowingly refused to do anything to make the trip more like what you'd envisioned. So, in a way, you _chose_ to feel victimized and to grow resentment, rather than to get what you wanted.

You could have told your wife and son that him staying for 7 days didn't work for you, but you'd be very happy to have him share a couple days of the trip with you. You could have refused to have him share a hotel room with you. You could have bought your wife some earplugs and yourself a box of Breathe Right strips to help with the snoring situation. You could have happily sent your grown son off to see museums by himself while you whisked your wife off to a casual stroll or lavish lunch or whatever you actually wanted to be doing. You could have gone off to do your own thing with a positive attitude if your wife and son wanted to do something you didn't care for. But you did none of those things. Instead, you chose to avoid conflict and be miserable. Did you do it because conflict is that scary to you? Or because you actually enjoy, on some level, feeling victimized and resentful? Therapy may help you figure that out, and what to do about it.


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## syhoybenden (Feb 21, 2013)

Yup. I hear you. Just when you think you've got them out of the nest they pop back up again demanding you spend all your time filling their gaping maws with regurgitated worms.

Such is the life of a parent. Maybe next trip.

And let's face it, you were going to go to all the boring art galleries anyways to keep her happy so you could get some nooky.

Maybe next trip. 

Personally, I hope my next trip involves more romance and less putting up with ungracious demanding relatives too.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

Rowan said:


> Have you thought about getting into therapy? First it may give you some tools to cope with, and the ability to vent constructively about, your obvious resentment. Second, it might be very helpful for you to learn how to speak up for yourself. You wanted the trip to be one thing, your wife and son made other arrangements. But you also knowingly refused to do anything to make the trip more like what you'd envisioned. So, in a way, you _chose_ to feel victimized and to grow resentment, rather than to get what you wanted.
> 
> You could have told your wife and son that him staying for 7 days didn't work for you, but you'd be very happy to have him share a couple days of the trip with you. You could have refused to have him share a hotel room with you. You could have bought your wife some earplugs and yourself a box of Breathe Right strips to help with the snoring situation. You could have happily sent your grown son off to see museums by himself while you whisked your wife off to a casual stroll or lavish lunch or whatever you actually wanted to be doing. You could have gone off to do your own thing with a positive attitude if your wife and son wanted to do something you didn't care for. But you did none of those things. Instead, you chose to avoid conflict and be miserable. Did you do it because conflict is that scary to you? Or because you actually enjoy, on some level, feeling victimized and resentful? Therapy may help you figure that out, and what to do about it.


He needs therapy all right. He needs therapy to become more assertive. He recognizes his NG tendencies and that's half the battle. Now he has to step up and be more assertive. 

Color of curtains in the bedroom? Who cares?
Rice or potatoes tonight? Who cares?
Letting a $5,000 vacation get ruined because of something he could have controlled? Yeah, no.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

I hear you brother! I agree you need to get into counseling to learn to be more assertive. I can tell you that if you don't it will only get worse. One of the final straws in my marriage was when my wife decided that it would be great to take our kids to Disney for our youngest's graduation from college. I told her we couldn't afford it. So she went behind my back and talked our older son's fiancee to pay for half of it, then presented me with the fait accompli to write a check for the other half since the trip had already been paid for. I was a Nice Guy too and wrote the check for $5000 because I didn't want to be the bad guy. It was the last of the many sexless vacations to places I never wanted to go to that I filly funded over the course of our 24 year marriage. I can't help but think had I been more assertive though out my marriage I could have been much happier. Either she would have gotten a clue that I wasn't an ATM or she might have left along time ago, but either way I wouldn't have become the self loathing loser I was at the end of my marriage.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Rowan said:


> Have you thought about getting into therapy? First it may give you some tools to cope with, and the ability to vent constructively about, your obvious resentment. Second, it might be very helpful for you to learn how to speak up for yourself. You wanted the trip to be one thing, your wife and son made other arrangements. But you also knowingly refused to do anything to make the trip more like what you'd envisioned. So, in a way, you _chose_ to feel victimized and to grow resentment, rather than to get what you wanted.
> 
> You could have told your wife and son that him staying for 7 days didn't work for you, but you'd be very happy to have him share a couple days of the trip with you. You could have refused to have him share a hotel room with you. You could have bought your wife some earplugs and yourself a box of Breathe Right strips to help with the snoring situation. You could have happily sent your grown son off to see museums by himself while you whisked your wife off to a casual stroll or lavish lunch or whatever you actually wanted to be doing. You could have gone off to do your own thing with a positive attitude if your wife and son wanted to do something you didn't care for. But you did none of those things. Instead, you chose to avoid conflict and be miserable. Did you do it because conflict is that scary to you? Or because you actually enjoy, on some level, feeling victimized and resentful? Therapy may help you figure that out, and what to do about it.


Thx for your comments Rowan. Don't think this quite rises to the level of therapy quite yet, but I understand the need for developing tools to better deal with the situation. Hence, my post.

I, too, thought of the suggestions you have made for bending the trip more to my inclination. Booked an AirBnB with two sleeping areas specifically to address snoring issue. (The earplugs/breathing strips options have not produced satisfactory results in past.) The two answers to snoring are having me minimize eating / drinking or have me sleep in another room. Having son in other room limited my choices there. 

Early on, I had expressed desire for limited time with son on vacation. As it turns out, that request was largely ignored. I had option of fighting it or rolling with the punches. Given short time frame upon learning of extended son's presence, I had few options for changing things up. My own fault. When issue came up two weeks ahead of our departure, I was on crushing work deadline. Didn't have the stamina to fight what would have been a losing battle anyway. Figured rolling with the punches was best way to optimize remaining value of the trip. 

In terms of the casual stroll alone, we did do that a bit. Walking around the grounds of Louvre most nights on our own. Also did nightly walks with son to watch Eiffel Tower displays. Invariably, despite my efforts to redirect, conversation on wife walks would devolve into dissecting something son said earlier in day. 

My only agenda was to relax, drink some good wine, eat some good food and focus on my wife. First two days without son were great. Wife even commented before his arrival that she regretted having him come because we were having so much fun. Then, he arrives and she slips back into "Mom mode." 

Perhaps I didn't do enough to bend things my way, but I don't think my inaction quite rises to the level of a total passive NG. I tried to find the right balance, and I failed in this instance.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

syhoybenden said:


> Yup. I hear you. Just when you think you've got them out of the nest they pop back up again demanding you spend all your time filling their gaping maws with regurgitated worms.
> 
> Such is the life of a parent. Maybe next trip.
> 
> ...


I agree with you SyHoy, but this is part of the attitude that got me into trouble with my assertiveness in the first place. I chalk things up to "life happens" and then defer gratification. For a change - for this trip - I was taking the leadership in planning a getaway we both could enjoy and wound up in the same old place.

While on one of our walks, wife suggested we return to Paris for our 30th "just the two of us." I appreciated the sentiment but it made me feel even worse - that I was just deferring gratification yet again. Thought that flashed through my mind was "Hey, you'll be lucky to ever get me to Paris again." My lack of assertiveness kept me from verbalizing it at that point.


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

I know you are disappointed but you two will have the rest of your lives to travel alone. Could you really have told your son you didn't want to spend time with him in Paris? He is going to be off on his own some day, maybe move away. My husband and I booked a cruise this Fall, the first vacation without our children in 15 years. There are also a lot of family members going but were were looking forward to being alone in our room. Our son who just graduated from college asked if he could go with us. We said yes, so he is staying in our room (because is free) so we won't have our alone time. It's a bit disappointing but I'm not going to let that ruin my vacation and we can have alone time when he is out of the room on his own. We just booked a trip to Hawaii next year, just us on our 28th wedding anniversary.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

What is wrong with you guys? There is nothing wrong about saying to an adult "child" "We're on this vacation for some alone, romantic time. Sorry but you can't come (or your time with us is limited to one-two days." Trust me... once they hear "romantic" their insides curdle at the thought of their parents having sex and it's even worse if they think they will be with them.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Happilymarried25 said:


> I know you are disappointed but you two will have the rest of your lives to travel alone. Could you really have told your son you didn't want to spend time with him in Paris? He is going to be off on his own some day, maybe move away. My husband and I booked a cruise this Fall, the first vacation without our children in 15 years. There are also a lot of family members going but were were looking forward to being alone in our room. Our son who just graduated from college asked if he could go with us. We said yes, so he is staying in our room (because is free) so we won't have our alone time. It's a bit disappointing but I'm not going to let that ruin my vacation and we can have alone time when he is out of the room on his own. We just booked a trip to Hawaii next year, just us on our 28th wedding anniversary.


Thanks Happily, this is my mindset exactly. Once the door was opened for son to spend extended vacation time with us, it was a genie that couldn't be put back in the bottle. You're not going to tell your son, "Hey kid, scram." I understand the basic premise of capitalizing on whatever time your near-adult kids are willing to share with you.

That's central to my internal conflict. Had it been any other issue impeding on vacation other than son's presence, I would've been more assertive in defending my preferences. As it is now, wife sez favorite part of trip was seeing son for such an extended time. That's nice. Just wasn't the outcome I was looking for. Indeed, I can honestly say I frequently felt like a third wheel on my own anniversary trip. That's demoralizing.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Chris Taylor said:


> What is wrong with you guys? There is nothing wrong about saying to an adult "child" "We're on this vacation for some alone, romantic time. Sorry but you can't come (or your time with us is limited to one-two days." Trust me... once they hear "romantic" their insides curdle at the thought of their parents having sex and it's even worse if they think they will be with them.


Chris, 

You're getting to the kernal of truth in this whole thing. I did want to limit son's presence and communicated that up front. I saw that as reasonable. Wife saw more value in having extended son time. What am I going to do, pound my fist on the table and say "You have to spend more time with me!" Seems to kinda defeat the purpose.

The reality is that if she prioritized spending time with me over our kids, she would have joined me in setting that boundary. As it was, she took active role in obliterating it. To me, that says a lot. And that's what I'm wrestling with.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

I think half of the problem you stated has to do with your assertiveness and the other half has to do with how you handle yourself. I get it, the trip didn't go as planned. You ended up being a Moody Mooderson and ended up not enjoying anything because you let that side of you win out. Seriously man. You can still learn to be assertive, be disappointed AND enjoy yourself. And you could have kicked the kid out one night to have romper room sex...


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

It seems that you're mostly disappointed in yourself for not handling the situation in a way that would have given you the vacation you wanted. It's your fault that you placed everyone else's feelings and desires ahead of yours. It would be a good thing to Monday morning quarterback this with your wife. Tell her exactly how you were disappointed. Yes, your halo will shift a little but it is necessary that you two get on the same page.

Think about going to Paris by yourself. No matter how much your wife begs, remember that she'll turn it into her and possibly a family vacation.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

syhoybenden said:


> Yup. I hear you. Just when you think you've got them out of the nest they pop back up again demanding you spend all your time filling their gaping maws with regurgitated worms.


:lol::rofl: Ain't that the truth!


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Plan a surprise trip for the two of you the next time you have available time, maybe Memorial Day weekend. Don't tell her where you're going, be mysterious. Tell her where you're going the morning you're leaving so she can pack appropriate clothing. Don't give her a chance to mom-sabotage the trip.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Ok, hindsight is 20/20, but you had too much invested in this trip. Youve already admitted this, which is good.

The trip is not the problem, of course, it's that you dont feel like you are a priority for your wife and havent for a long time.

You were hoping the trip would reverse that feeling, but that was unrealistic to begin with.

consider that from your wife's perspective, her actions were totally normal. She has ALWAYS prioritized the mom role. Why would you expect different just because you happened to be somewhere else?

I agree with you that pushing to exclude your son wouldve been counterproductive. If you had done that, my guess is that your wife would have been the one who had a bad attitude during the trip.

What you wanted was for her to enthusiastically join you for some alone time, without coercion or manipulation. When it became clear that would not happen, you shouldve asked yourself whether you could enjoy the trip as a continuation of your everyday life with her and accepted or rejected it on those terms.

Ultimately, the problem is whether you can clearly focus on what sort of relationship you ACTUALLY have with your wife (not what you wish it was), what sort of relationship is ACTUALLY realistic (which should be evident after so much time together) and whether THAT is acceptable to you (not ideal, just acceptable).

If you can reflect on this, you can take greater ownership of the situations you CHOOSE to put yourself in.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It's because of such sentiments that our last vacation was 2012 and that was a disaster emotionally to boot. 

In 2014 we almost booked a cruise where thanks to pricing it was fairly trivial price difference between two cabins for two or one for four. Wife was all gung ho about going till she found out the accommodation plans and "started worrying about her daughters being alone at night" (21 and 19, both in college away)... I quickly dropped the idea.

Same thing this fall. Older girl headed to Rome for a semester, wife suggests trip, the moment accommodations are discussed... Screw that. I'm going to Louisville instead 

Having said all this if I was happy with the marriage overall I would not mind what the OP went thru, knowing it will be made up upon return.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

OP, your wife needs to prioritize the needs of the family in this order: 
1 Husband
2 hers
3 kids 
4 everybody else

Sounds like she has several in the wrong place. Time to assert a new order. You are the leader of the family.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

MAJDEATH said:


> OP, your wife needs to prioritize the needs of the family in this order:
> 1 Husband
> 2 hers
> 3 kids
> ...


That is a recipe for disaster. NOBODY should put their needs behind anyone else's. The best we can hope for is that having a partner is so important to each us that their needs to be happy become our needs.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

MarriedTex said:


> I felt like the world's biggest NG loser.
> 
> Wife knows that I was disappointed in the trip, but I have not completely shared just how bad it was for me.
> 
> ...


You're right. You're a Nice Guy and, basically, this is all a direct result of YOUR lack of cajones. You had PLENTY of opportunities to do what YOU want, to speak up, to change things.

And you did nothing. Except pout and act like a martyr.

So are you ready to change? I suggest you start by stating the statement bolded above to her. Or are you afraid to?


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Anon1111 said:


> Ok, hindsight is 20/20, but you had too much invested in this trip. Youve already admitted this, which is good.
> 
> The trip is not the problem, of course, it's that you dont feel like you are a priority for your wife and havent for a long time.
> 
> ...


Anon, this is perfect summation of the situation. And - as you state - time for some reflection. Your understanding and insight are most appreciated.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

turnera said:


> You're right. You're a Nice Guy and, basically, this is all a direct result of YOUR lack of cajones. You had PLENTY of opportunities to do what YOU want, to speak up, to change things.
> 
> And you did nothing. Except pout and act like a martyr.
> 
> So are you ready to change? I suggest you start by stating the statement bolded above to her. Or are you afraid to?


You're right. This is a reversion on progress I've made on the NG front during the past five years. Compared to some time ago, I'm much better than I had been in the first decade of our marriage, in particular.

But we're all a work in progress, and - clearly - I have more work to do.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

john117 said:


> It's because of such sentiments that our last vacation was 2012 and that was a disaster emotionally to boot.
> 
> In 2014 we almost booked a cruise where thanks to pricing it was fairly trivial price difference between two cabins for two or one for four. Wife was all gung ho about going till she found out the accommodation plans and "started worrying about her daughters being alone at night" (21 and 19, both in college away)... I quickly dropped the idea.
> 
> ...


Sorry you had such a negative outcome with your wife. 

To her credit, my wife is trying to at least show small tokens of kindness, gratitude upon our return. I acknowledge the effort, but - in my gut - I just think "too little, too late." I just gotta get over myself. I'll fight through. I always do. Just hate that I have to put this much thought / effort into getting what I want from relationship. Just wears me out.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Have you told her that?


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

MarriedTex said:


> Sorry you had such a negative outcome with your wife.
> 
> To her credit, my wife is trying to at least show small tokens of kindness, gratitude upon our return. I acknowledge the effort, but - in my gut - I just think "too little, too late." I just gotta get over myself. I'll fight through. I always do. Just hate that I have to put this much thought / effort into getting what I want from relationship. Just wears me out.


You sound like a martyr, sacrificing your happiness so your marriage can continue on in this half-arsed state it's in.


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## Katiebird (Jun 7, 2010)

MarriedTex said:


> But I decided to try to make the best of it, and - indeed - I think (and wife has concurred) that I was a good, upbeat travel companion. I didn't want to ruin a $5,000 trip for her just because I didn't get my way.
> 
> That said, I was pretty much quietly miserable the entire week. Sleeping quarters were tight with son around. I hung off the side of a small queen while wife still complained that I was crowding her space. I snore and wife is light sleeper, so I avoided the things that make me snore - rich food and wine - so that she could sleep well. And not much window for intimate times with son around.
> 
> So I spent a week in Paris on my anniversary trip, eating like a bird, drinking no wine and having no sex. I felt like the world's biggest NG loser. Meanwhile, I'm trooping around going to a bunch of art museums that I could care less about every day. Happy f--ing vacation to me!


My guess is that, in spite of what your wife might have told you, your disappointment and misery was quite apparent. I am not seeing what the eating like a bird and not drinking wine had to do with your son. It is your WIFE that is the light sleeper. 

It sounds to me a little like you were playing "martyr" and that is usually a pretty obvious role. It is one my H plays to the hilt. 

I agree that you should have talked to your wife frankly about your feelings before. However, that being said, a mother's bond and viewpoint of her children is often quite different than that of dad. If your son had been abroad for awhile, I am sure she was anxious to see him. However, your son may not have realized the significance of this trip - wedding anniversary. Kids are usually oblivious to those things. Had you also talked with him, he may have been willing to cut his time in Paris.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Katiebird said:


> My guess is that, in spite of what your wife might have told you, your disappointment and misery was quite apparent. I am not seeing what the eating like a bird and not drinking wine had to do with your son. It is your WIFE that is the light sleeper.
> 
> It sounds to me a little like you were playing "martyr" and that is usually a pretty obvious role. It is one my H plays to the hilt.
> 
> I agree that you should have talked to your wife frankly about your feelings before. However, that being said, a mother's bond and viewpoint of her children is often quite different than that of dad. If your son had been abroad for awhile, I am sure she was anxious to see him. However, your son may not have realized the significance of this trip - wedding anniversary. Kids are usually oblivious to those things. Had you also talked with him, he may have been willing to cut his time in Paris.


Presence of son eliminated ability to sleep in other room when needed, as I had planned. Hence, his presence reduced my "snoring elimination" options to light eating & no drinking.

You're right on "obliviousness" of young men. I really had no option on this front though. His extended presence was presented to me as fait accompli. Had I worked the son to reduce his time after setting it at longer rate, wife/mom would've taken as an affront. "Son doesn't want to spend time with us." 

Maybe you're right on them noticing my martyrdom. Maybe not. Two weeks later, she's still beaming about the trip to anyone who asks. I can't imagine that would be the case if I really was a wet blanket. Maybe I just have more experience playing the martyr than your H.  

All these issues are inconsequential though. Just mechanics, really. Anon's post earlier really strikes at the tone/issues perfectly. That is what I will reflect upon. Many thanks for everyone's input.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

MarriedTex said:


> Looking for help on working on my own melancholy.
> 
> I'd appreciate any suggestions on how to chill and just accept what has happened here. But - even two weeks after returning - my resentment is not abating.


How to work through letting yourself down? When something bugs me afterwards, it generally boils down to my own actions/in-actions not aligning to how I really feel. 

All you can do is recognize it for what it is and learn from it. It's almost like observing yourself. Recognizing the emotions, then scratching beneath that a little more to understand what it's really about. I've found the 'learning' becomes an accumulation of little adjustments, most often trial and error. Sometimes it feels uncomfortable. It's interesting how a scenario, or communication, can feel uncomfortable and simultaneously congruent... 

You handled things the best you knew at the time. Now you recognize that's not working for you anymore. Accept that. And then it gets interesting..! It's a continual process. C'est la vie! Rather than resent the anniversary trip, perhaps you can embrace the opportunity for growth that you have now presented yourself.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

I'm sorry you didn't enjoy your trip, but my feeling is that it was all on you to make it more enjoyable. 

You're expecting your wife to provide your relief, when YOU need to do it for yourself. If you don't want a mom for a wife, be an adult and speak your truth. 

Silently resenting her because of your own choices isn't going to fix things, it'll just keep you in low confidence mode.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

heartsbeating said:


> How to work through letting yourself down? When something bugs me afterwards, it generally boils down to my own actions/in-actions not aligning to how I really feel.
> 
> All you can do is recognize it for what it is and learn from it. It's almost like observing yourself. Recognizing the emotions, then scratching beneath that a little more to understand what it's really about. I've found the 'learning' becomes an accumulation of little adjustments, most often trial and error. Sometimes it feels uncomfortable. It's interesting how a scenario, or communication, can feel uncomfortable and simultaneously congruent...
> 
> You handled things the best you knew at the time. Now you recognize that's not working for you anymore. Accept that. And then it gets interesting..! It's a continual process. C'est la vie! Rather than resent the anniversary trip, perhaps you can embrace the opportunity for growth that you have now presented yourself.


This is good advice. Need to treat this as learning experience, as you say. I do believe that "adjustments" is a more appropriate approach to this than full-blown counseling. In my own pity party, I had convinced myself that essentially "I'm not entitled to nice things." First step in my journey is validating that I do deserve to enjoy things from time to time.

Second step is actually more difficult. Actually identifying the things that would make me happy is a chore. I've put myself on "dad auto-pilot" so long, living vicariously through kid / family centered activities - just churning to get the next task done - that I forget what I want at the core. That's why Paris was such a blow to me. First time in a long time that I had emotionally invested in something I wanted to do. It was a big step forward for me to actually identify that I wanted - and would actually spend time & money - on a trip of that ilk. As the title of the thread states, it was a disappointment to me. 

I clearly fumbled on the execution of actually getting what I wanted. Call me severely out of practice on that front. The temptation is to say "I tried" and allow myself to wallow. But I'm going to work on identifying other things I want and try to have a more focused approach to ensuring my efforts are not derailed. It's a process, but I have to maintain this mindset no matter how much my learned behaviors tell me to "retreat."


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

I get it Tex - and also think @Rowan has it right. You could have made it better. (And BTW - solve that snoring thing permanently if you can.) 

But you can also make it better right NOW. Rent "Midnight in Paris" to watch at home, light candles and set a table. Have a few roses as the centerpiece and buy wine, gourmet cheeses and croissants and call ahead carryout from a fine dining establishment. Tell your wife Friday morning that you are going to relive your Paris trip WITHOUT son! (cause women like to, you know, PREPARE for romance time). Have wine, dinner, watch movie, good sex. Do you have an espresso machine? If not, run out Saturday morning for espresso and serve croissants and jam. Make love in bed. Then go out and take a lovely long stroll at a local park. Have a picnic with wine, cheese and fruit. If private enough more sex outdoors. Then home to change into nice clothes and dinner out and even a museum or gallery. Hold her hand. Ask questions about what she thinks about art, current events, etc. Tell her children and home business are off limits. If she mentions any of the above, silence her with a kiss. Another leisurely breakfast in bed Sunday. If there are things that need to be done, tell her forget it, there's next weekend. Dust, grass, etc. will still be there!

Make your weekend a vacation. Go all out and try to incorporate things you enjoy, too.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

EnjoliWoman said:


> I get it Tex - and also think @Rowan has it right. You could have made it better. (And BTW - solve that snoring thing permanently if you can.)
> 
> But you can also make it better right NOW. Rent "Midnight in Paris" to watch at home, light candles and set a table. Have a few roses as the centerpiece and buy wine, gourmet cheeses and croissants and call ahead carryout from a fine dining establishment. Tell your wife Friday morning that you are going to relive your Paris trip WITHOUT son! (cause women like to, you know, PREPARE for romance time). Have wine, dinner, watch movie, good sex. Do you have an espresso machine? If not, run out Saturday morning for espresso and serve croissants and jam. Make love in bed. Then go out and take a lovely long stroll at a local park. Have a picnic with wine, cheese and fruit. If private enough more sex outdoors. Then home to change into nice clothes and dinner out and even a museum or gallery. Hold her hand. Ask questions about what she thinks about art, current events, etc. Tell her children and home business are off limits. If she mentions any of the above, silence her with a kiss. Another leisurely breakfast in bed Sunday. If there are things that need to be done, tell her forget it, there's next weekend. Dust, grass, etc. will still be there!
> 
> Make your weekend a vacation. Go all out and try to incorporate things you enjoy, too.


Thx Enjoli. Good points and we think somewhat alike. But I don't think it's a good idea to beat the Paris horse anymore. Time to move forward.

This weekend, we're actually going to mid-town Manhattan for a five-day trip. I have a trade show in NYC next week. In the two weeks after learning of son's extended Paris presence but before the actual trip itself, I knew that I would need some type of "next step" to get myself past Paris. So, I tacked on a few days to my NYC business trip & invited wife along. We do fun stuff over the weekend and then she does museums solo while I'm working Monday to Wednesday. And then we have the nights together. We get somewhat extended time in NYC. All we have to pay for is her flight and xtra hotel night. 

And, let it be noted, that I learn from experience. We have daughter at college in Boston. Would've been pretty easy for her to take a train down and join us for the weekend. Alas, Dad made sure ahead of time that she has finals next week before booking the trip. Imagine my disappointment when wife said she had talked to daughter separately and they couldn't figure out any viable way for her to join us. (She's literally coming home a week later, so we will get to visit soon enough.) I may be a martyr, but I'm nobody's fool. 

We'll hit a few shows and take some walking tours. But I have absolutely no expectations for this trip. I intend to enjoy myself and hope wife has enjoyable trip, too.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

I get your wife's point, too - if you are going to be in the area, you might as well get a visit in, especially if you don't see the kids very often. Glad it's working out - you aren't going to be able to remove children from a mother's mind for long, though.  But the fact she put them ahead of a lot of things is also part of what made her good mother, right?  Two sides of the same coin. Enjoy!


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

I can't understand why, right from the beginning, you didn't say to your wife that you wanted and envisioned a nice, romantic vacation for just the two of you. Why didn't you tell her daily (or at least regularly) about how you couldn't wait to get her in your hotel room to do x, y and z with her; how you were so looking forward to time together as a couple, rather than as parents, at long last?

You know, women who have been married for 25 years really want to hear that sort of thing from their husbands! If you had done this, I think your wife would have been minimizing time with your son without any encouragement from you. 

I think pre-emptively checking that the kids are busy or too far away when you plan a vacation is entirely the wrong way to go about it. Much better to romance your wife boldly; don't be timid about it! Let her know what your intentions are. I think you will find that she responds incredibly well to knowing that you feel that way about her.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

MarriedTex said:


> Thx Enjoli. Good points and we think somewhat alike. But I don't think it's a good idea to beat the Paris horse anymore. Time to move forward.
> 
> This weekend, we're actually going to mid-town Manhattan for a five-day trip. I have a trade show in NYC next week. In the two weeks after learning of son's extended Paris presence but before the actual trip itself, I knew that I would need some type of "next step" to get myself past Paris. So, I tacked on a few days to my NYC business trip & invited wife along. We do fun stuff over the weekend and then she does museums solo while I'm working Monday to Wednesday. And then we have the nights together. We get somewhat extended time in NYC. All we have to pay for is her flight and xtra hotel night.
> 
> ...


pretty impressive that you're able to regroup so quickly.

the key as you note is to find a way to have a good time regardless of what your wife does.

lowering expectations can have counterintuitive effects. doing so relieves pressure on both of you.

you may find that when you honestly don't care what your wife does, she may be more interested in you.

or you may find that she's still not so interested, but you might realize that it's not really about you anyway. and in that case you can reward yourself with the permission to not make everything about her.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

I don't think this is all the OP's fault. I think that his wife would have certainly wanted to spend with him alone in Paris instead of the son. I would have been pissed that she didn't speak up and change the plans so they could have had the entire time together. If she was willing to let this go, I would be worried about the marriage.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

jb02157 said:


> I don't think this is all the OP's fault. I think that his wife would have certainly wanted to spend with him alone in Paris instead of the son. I would have been pissed that she didn't speak up and change the plans so they could have had the entire time together. If she was willing to let this go, I would be worried about the marriage.


I'm not worried about the marriage. We're both in for the long haul. Big question is whether the marriage will produce a "10" in terms of long-term satisfaction or bump along at the "6" or "7" level. Wife's reaction / choices in this instance do give me pause and make me think that it may be tough to "max out" on satisfaction scale for both of us. 

If that is the case, I have to get better at looking after my own interests - make sure I get my bite at the apple. It's a little outside my comfort zone, but I can make it happen. Would prefer it all to fall into place naturally, of course. But that's does not appear to be my lot in life.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Anon1111 said:


> pretty impressive that you're able to regroup so quickly.
> 
> the key as you note is to find a way to have a good time regardless of what your wife does.
> 
> ...


Spot on, again, Anon. So easy to say, yet so challenging to implement. I suspect I will continue to make progress on a two-steps forward, one-step back basis for quite awhile yet.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

OliviaG said:


> I can't understand why, right from the beginning, you didn't say to your wife that you wanted and envisioned a nice, romantic vacation for just the two of you. Why didn't you tell her daily (or at least regularly) about how you couldn't wait to get her in your hotel room to do x, y and z with her; how you were so looking forward to time together as a couple, rather than as parents, at long last?
> 
> You know, women who have been married for 25 years really want to hear that sort of thing from their husbands! If you had done this, I think your wife would have been minimizing time with your son without any encouragement from you.
> 
> I think pre-emptively checking that the kids are busy or too far away when you plan a vacation is entirely the wrong way to go about it. Much better to romance your wife boldly; don't be timid about it! Let her know what your intentions are. I think you will find that she responds incredibly well to knowing that you feel that way about her.


Perhaps you are right. I should've been more expressive on this point. I had thought it would be implied with the idea of a "25th Anniversary Trip." 

With my wife, there seems to be a fine line. If I go overboard, she tends to discount my statements and chalks it up to "you're just a horny guy." So, to be believed or seen as "genuine" in these types of declarations, I tend to edit or limit myself. As a result, I frequently shoot "too low." Certainly something for me to consider.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

EnjoliWoman said:


> I get your wife's point, too - if you are going to be in the area, you might as well get a visit in, especially if you don't see the kids very often. Glad it's working out - you aren't going to be able to remove children from a mother's mind for long, though.  But the fact she put them ahead of a lot of things is also part of what made her good mother, right?  Two sides of the same coin. Enjoy!


You're right, she is a great mother. We have three great kids, due largely to her hard work. After 25 years, I'd love to see her put the same kind of focus on her husband. I've long dealt with the reality that I'm not at the top of her list. In many ways, I accept it. Indeed, I had believed that I had actually been making progress with her in that regard. Paris was just a reminder that we have a long, long way to go, and that I had better start adjusting plans as needed to ensure my own long-term happiness.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

My experience is that women, once kids come along, are torn between two roles - mom and lover. Kids NEED a lot of attention, even teenagers. And moms get absolute love from their kids, whereas their marital relationship is full of...uncertainty, repression, judgment, fear, all sorts of things. Which is the safer relationship? The more rewarding? 

Now, a man's relationships are completely different. I distinctly remember when my H stopped hugging our daughter; he felt it was becoming inappropriate, she just felt abandoned and flowed all her love toward me.

And it may seem 'not fair,' but once the kids come, from what I've experienced in posters over the years, it takes a little extra effort from the man to rekindle the 'love,' the 'romance,' and the 'spark.' Because it's easy for her to let that fire lapse while kids are around. But IMO she's secretly waiting for the man to come back and sweep her off her feet. To NOT allow the kids to take over their lives. To carve out sexy time. Usually, she'll gladly comply, if he just steps up.

How are you doing in that arena?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

It sounds to me like he HAS been stepping up in that way, but when he does, all she thinks about is inviting the adult children.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

No, you're missing the part where I say it's the man's role to say 'hell no, woman, I'm your man and I deserve time with you WITHOUT the kids and we're gonna have it!'

He hasn't done that. IMO, she's waiting for it.


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## Big Tree (Jul 25, 2014)

One of the highlights of the NMMNG personality is to have covert contracts...and then do the quiet burn when things don't work out according to the covert contract.

You can eliminate covert contracts by being up front with your expectations. If your wife agrees to your expectations and balks later...hold her accountable.

"Dear, I planned a romantic getaway for our anniversary. I expect to have couples time alone for at least a week."

"Dear, you agreed to couples time alone for a week. Tell our son no, or I will."


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

OP allow me to share an experience as a lifelong NG. Now believe me when I thought for 38 years being a NG was a good thing. I was your classic NG. I did not understand the ramifications of it until I lost my breadwinner status and was fumbling with how I would recoup that in the worst financial crisis of my lifetime.

I was caught off guard when my W began attacking my lack of earning power. She was now the breadwinner and she began using it against me at every financial turn. At first I was in disbelief. Maybe I deserved this (I did not). Maybe it was just an ego phase she was going through (it wasn't). After being hurt at her comments I eventually became annoyed. After coming here and understanding how pathetic being a nice guy was I made my plan.

You see it was not much longer after my decision to stop her in her tracks that she brought up again that she was making the decisions financially because she earned more money. I let her know in no uncertain terms that if she ever utilized that strategy or type of remark with me again it would be the last time she did because I would be leaving and seeking a very good portion of her salary as alimony. She knew I meant it and it has never been an issue since. That was the day the NG began to disappear. 

You have to pick your moment and execute my friend or all you will ever be is the guy who recognizes that he is a NG.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

turnera said:


> No, you're missing the part where I say it's the man's role to say 'hell no, woman, I'm your man and I deserve time with you WITHOUT the kids and we're gonna have it!'
> 
> He hasn't done that. IMO, she's waiting for it.


I honestly don't know if she's "waiting" for this. May be receptive if I engage in this manner. But just as likely to view this type of treatment in negative manner. To be honest, I'm uncomfortable suggesting that I "deserve" something from my partner. Would seem more authentic if she "gave" attention of her own free will. I'm willing to accept that I'm naive on this issue.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

RClawson said:


> OP allow me to share an experience as a lifelong NG. Now believe me when I thought for 38 years being a NG was a good thing. I was your classic NG. I did not understand the ramifications of it until I lost my breadwinner status and was fumbling with how I would recoup that in the worst financial crisis of my lifetime.
> 
> I was caught off guard when my W began attacking my lack of earning power. She was now the breadwinner and she began using it against me at every financial turn. At first I was in disbelief. Maybe I deserved this (I did not). Maybe it was just an ego phase she was going through (it wasn't). After being hurt at her comments I eventually became annoyed. After coming here and understanding how pathetic being a nice guy was I made my plan.
> 
> ...


Claw, I like the approach but disagree on the execution. I don't think you wait for the magic moment to draw your line. I think you draw a series of incremental lines that make it increasingly clear that you are not going to accept a particular behavior over the long haul.

I have to make it a consistent, clear-cut approach that some things are just not acceptable. It's a process, though, not a single event.


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

MarriedTex said:


> I honestly don't know if she's "waiting" for this. May be receptive if I engage in this manner. But just as likely to view this type of treatment in negative manner. To be honest, I'm uncomfortable suggesting that I "deserve" something from my partner. Would seem more authentic if she "gave" attention of her own free will. I'm willing to accept that I'm naive on this issue.


I think you are naive on the issue. It is such a turn-on to know that your husband *wants* you, that he values your time together as a couple enough to insist on it. 

Try an experiment: announce that you're planning a romantic weekend away for the two of you because you need to reconnect with her as a husband. Maybe a couple of weeks before the designated weekend you could buy her a bottle of her favourite perfume, and enclose a gift card to her favourite lingerie shop with a note that you can't wait to see her wearing what she purchases once you get to your destination. Tell her often that the anticipation is driving you crazy. What you will be doing is clearly communicating what you desire from her, making her feel loved and sexy, and heightening *her* anticipation of the weekend.

I really think you will be pleasantly surprised at the outcome.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

OliviaG said:


> I think you are naive on the issue. It is such a turn-on to know that your husband *wants* you, that he values your time together as a couple enough to insist on it.
> 
> Try an experiment: announce that you're planning a romantic weekend away for the two of you because you need to reconnect with her as a husband. Maybe a couple of weeks before the designated weekend you could buy her a bottle of her favourite perfume, and enclose a gift card to her favourite lingerie shop with a note that you can't wait to see her wearing what she purchases once you get to your destination. Tell her often that the anticipation is driving you crazy. What you will be doing is clearly communicating what you desire from her, making her feel loved and sexy, and heightening *her* anticipation of the weekend.
> 
> I really think you will be pleasantly surprised at the outcome.


Quite honestly, I think this leads me down the path of expectation and disappointment associated with Paris. I appreciate the input, but I think you may be projecting on what "Olivia" would like but not necessarily Mrs. Tex.

Wife has no designated "lingerie shop", per se. Only lingerie in her wardrobe was stuff I bought her for gifts years ago. About 10 years in a row, I would be her something nice from Victoria's Secret for Xmas (one of many gifts, not the only gift.) Invariably, she would wear it once (if at all) and I'd never see it again. I finally gave up on that front. (I only have to have the same response for a decade before it finally sinks in, I guess.) At one point, I acknowledged that she might not like my taste and invited her to go shopping with me or on her own. Never have done that. In short, lingerie's not her thing.

Same thing with perfume. I could get her nice set that would literally be used so sparingly that it would last five years. You might say I have lousy taste, and that would account for minimal use. But even bottles that she would get on her own would last for years and years.

That's long way of saying that - for right now, at least - I'm just tired of "working" to make something happen in the relationship. It shouldn't be that hard. I recognize the risk of disengagement on my part. For the moment, I just need to chill, lower expectations and detach from outcome. For the moment, I just don't have stomach for trying the big, sweeping romantic gestures yet again.


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

MarriedTex said:


> Quite honestly, I think this leads me down the path of expectation and disappointment associated with Paris. I appreciate the input, but I think you may be projecting on what "Olivia" would like but not necessarily Mrs. Tex.
> 
> Wife has no designated "lingerie shop", per se. Only lingerie in her wardrobe was stuff I bought her for gifts years ago. About 10 years in a row, I would be her something nice from Victoria's Secret for Xmas (one of many gifts, not the only gift.) Invariably, she would wear it once (if at all) and I'd never see it again. I finally gave up on that front. (I only have to have the same response for a decade before it finally sinks in, I guess.) At one point, I acknowledged that she might not like my taste and invited her to go shopping with me or on her own. Never have done that. In short, lingerie's not her thing.
> 
> ...


You're right, it is what Olivia would like - but not just me, what all my girlfriends would like too. Every female that I can think of.

The perfume and lingerie were just examples, not to be taken literally.

But, if you have been making grand gestures and she has been letting them drop then I completely understand not wanting to continue to do so. The impression I was going on was that you were not really being clear to her about what you wanted.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

MarriedTex said:


> I honestly don't know if she's "waiting" for this. May be receptive if I engage in this manner. But just as likely to view this type of treatment in negative manner. To be honest, I'm uncomfortable suggesting that I "deserve" something from my partner. Would seem more authentic if she "gave" attention of her own free will. I'm willing to accept that I'm naive on this issue.


Just to clarify, I didn't mean to beat your chest or be negative when you do this. I meant that she should get the feeling that you're expressing you value yourself, and you expect your marriage to include sex/romance time, and you expect that she's gonna love it. Women respond to strong, confident men.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

MarriedTex said:


> I honestly don't know if she's "waiting" for this. May be receptive if I engage in this manner. But just as likely to view this type of treatment in negative manner. To be honest, I'm uncomfortable suggesting that I "deserve" something from my partner. Would seem more authentic if she "gave" attention of her own free will. I'm willing to accept that I'm naive on this issue.


This is a very good point. Expectation is a killer.

However, frequently those who have high expectations of service in a relationship are also the very ones who deliver a very low level themselves.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

farsidejunky said:


> This is a very good point. Expectation is a killer.
> 
> However, frequently those who have high expectations of service in a relationship are also the very ones who deliver a very low level themselves.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I have many, many faults. However, I can absolutely guarantee that I do not under-deliver when it comes to providing support and service to my wife. Indeed, just the opposite is likely true. As the Paris experience demonstrates, my fault likely lies in being too enabling and too concerned about the happiness of those around me - at times to my own detriment.


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## Tortdog (May 2, 2016)

My same wrestle, brother. My wife would do the same thing.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

MarriedTex said:


> I have many, many faults. However, I can absolutely guarantee that I do not under-deliver when it comes to providing support and service to my wife. Indeed, just the opposite is likely true. As the Paris experience demonstrates, my fault likely lies in being too enabling and too concerned about the happiness of those around me - at times to my own detriment.


_
You're_ not the one with the high expectations and low delivery.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Nucking Futs said:


> _
> You're_ not the one with the high expectations and low delivery.


Oops, my bad. @farside, sorry for misinterpreting your post. 

Viewed in this new context, I would largely have to agree with that post. My wife's expectations are high and they don't always match what she's willing to bring to the table. 

I've always subscribed to the "you can't control other people's behavior" approach to things. As a result, I am reticent to ask for / demand the things that I want. I figure that if I am really important to a person, that they will choose to act in ways that demonstrate kindness to me. If they don't, well I didn't deserve their special attention and shouldn't be asking for it in the first place. I have a robust, rich set of friends from high school and college - and most of those friendships have lasted three decades using this approach.

This philosophy towards life really has not served me well in my marriage, though. I'm the rock that steadies the ship and absorbs the blows, setting the stage for others to be happy while rarely asking "what's in it for me." As I gather courage and start to ask that question from time to time, it disturbs the equilibrium of the NG-driven relationship I have fostered. 

Once the die was cast for the Paris trip, I chose to shelve the "what's in it for me" question and revert to my NG ways. If anything, this experience has increased my resolve to do as much as I can to excise my NG behaviors moving forward.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

MarriedTex said:


> I honestly don't know if she's "waiting" for this. May be receptive if I engage in this manner. But just as likely to view this type of treatment in negative manner. To be honest, I'm uncomfortable suggesting that I "deserve" something from my partner. Would seem more authentic if she "gave" attention of her own free will. I'm willing to accept that I'm naive on this issue.


I think your instinct is right here. Thinking in terms of what you "deserve" is a recipe for disappointment.

Going back to the circumstances surrounding your Paris trip-- I don't think it could be more clear that the trip was supposed to be about celebrating your marriage. Still, your wife had other priorities.

I'm very skeptical of the idea that you can "dominate" your spouse to the degree that she will suddenly want something she didn't want before.

The concept is kind of ridiculous when you think about it. It assumes she needs you to think for her.

I think the reality is that you are two different people. Your wants and needs overlap some but not totally. 

Over time, the degree to which they overlap will fluctuate. Sometimes it may feel like they barely overlap enough to make it worth it. Other periods you may feel more in sync.

The challenge, I think, it to realize that you are always on your own path. It is as if you are driving a car and she is sitting in the passenger seat. 

You are holding the wheel. You can drive in any direction you choose. You also choose to allow her to sit next to you. You choose when to listen to the radio instead of talking. As the driver, you are really in control of this car. She is just a passenger.

Looking at it from a different angle, she's also the driver of her own car and you are her passenger. You have no control over where SHE chooses to point her car, whether she listens to the radio or chooses to talk to you.

Both of these cars are simultaneously moving down the road. You are both simultaneously your own driver and the other's passenger.

In your own car, you may be fine with having her ride with you and even prefer it. In her car, she might prefer just listening to the radio and not even really care whether you are there.

But-- this is the key-- you still retain complete control of what happens in your car, regardless of what is going on in her car.

To the extent you choose to keep her around in your car when it is clear that she's indifferent whether you remain in her car, that is a CHOICE you have made. You are the driver of your car.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> You're right, it is what Olivia would like - but not just me, what all my girlfriends would like too. Every female that I can think of.
> 
> The perfume and lingerie were just examples, not to be taken literally.
> 
> But, if you have been making grand gestures and she has been letting them drop then I completely understand not wanting to continue to do so. The impression I was going on was that you were not really being clear to her about what you wanted.


with respect, you and your girlfriends are imagining these romantic gestures are coming from a guy that already turns you on. of course you would be turned on more by indications of interest from a guy you already found very attractive.

now imagine the overtures came instead from a guy you felt lukewarm about. you might not find them so compelling. you might even find them annoying. if the guy was particularly unattractive, you might even find them offensive.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

MarriedTex said:


> I have many, many faults. However, I can absolutely guarantee that I do not under-deliver when it comes to providing support and service to my wife. Indeed, just the opposite is likely true. As the Paris experience demonstrates, my fault likely lies in being too enabling and too concerned about the happiness of those around me - at times to my own detriment.


yeah, dude, you definitely need to back off and focus on finding your own happiness, not relying on others to provide it for you.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

MarriedTex said:


> Oops, my bad. @farside, sorry for misinterpreting your post.
> 
> Viewed in this new context, I would largely have to agree with that post. My wife's expectations are high and they don't always match what she's willing to bring to the table.
> 
> ...


Ok. Now what are you prepared to _do_ about it?


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Wow as a reformed NG I see what you wrote and wonder if that was me so many years ago.

Look bottom line is you have no one to blame but yourself in any situation where you want something but never voice it. We always blame women when they expect us to mind read what they want but you are doing the same thing. Now to avoid conflict you are scheduling things to avoid them, like the daughter in Boston with finals. To me that's worse because you are manipulating to get what you want when you should just state it. You have every right to want something and including private time with your wife.

Honestly I think you have this notion that being assertive means being mean or causing an argument and it doesn't have to. 

My example.... I am planning a trip to Ireland next year. Once in a lifetime trip for 12 days just me and my GF. Now my GF sister and family live in Europe and supposedly it's very easy to get around there. She said to me about two weeks ago that when her sister finds out we were going they may want to fly up to see us. Now the NG me would have been annoyed or angry at them, her and the situation and I promise you when I was married to my X I wouldn't have said anything but ok. Now the reformed nice guy said that's nice When I have the itinerary you can give it to them if they want to join on for a few days of the trip but it's not to be the whole trip and we will NOT be deviating from our plans so make sure they understand that. All my GF did was smile because I made a decision and stuck to it. I removed the burden for her to be accommodating for her family which she really didn't want anyway. 

Point is being assertive doesn't mean being a ****. I think you need to start this with your wife, I bet at a minimum she grows to respect you more.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Anon1111 said:


> I think your instinct is right here. Thinking in terms of what you "deserve" is a recipe for disappointment.


FTR, I wasn't saying to look at this is something you 'deserve.' That's Nice Guy talk and behavior and attitude, and is worse than worthless - it's harmful.

Look. If you were dating, and you wanted to come on to her, would you wait? Or would you make a move and see if she laughs and pushes you away? You'd make a move, right? Because that's what you want - to plant a big kiss on her. So what's different now? Is it because she's rejected you?

If so, that's YOUR problem, not hers. Something YOU need to work out, in therapy or whatever, because that's just Nice Guy, low-self-esteem behavior and NO woman wants or responds to a man like that.

You want her to desire you? Start loving yourself.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

MarriedTex said:


> I've always subscribed to the "you can't control other people's behavior" approach to things. As a result, I am reticent to ask for / demand the things that I want.* I figure that if I am really important to a person, that they will choose to act in ways that demonstrate kindness to me. *If they don't, well I didn't deserve their special attention and shouldn't be asking for it in the first place. I have a robust, rich set of friends from high school and college - and most of those friendships have lasted three decades using this approach.


Careful with that, especially the bold part. There's a really thin line there between what you can/should expect to happen naturally, and expecting other people to mind-read. It's easy to get into the habit of thinking that if my partner doesn't automatically know what I want and give it to me, it must be because she's unloving. _If she really loved me, she'd just know._ Well, your partner isn't always going to just know. And when you use that as evidence that she doesn't really love you, then you get into the territory of viewing her as the opposition. It's you, the good guy, and her, the bad guy who isn't giving you what you refuse to ask for. Because if she really loved you, she'd just know what to do/say to give you what you want/need. The whole dynamic breeds disrespect and resentment - from both partners.

Don't expect your wife to read your mind. If you need or want something that she's not automatically providing, tell her. Then, she can make an informed choice about whether or not she's willing to meet that need. But expecting her to just know, and being pissy when she doesn't because you won't tell her, is the penultimate expression of the not-so-nice Nice Guy mentality. It's a quick way to create an oppositional, resentful, disrespectful relationship - from both sides.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> Wow as a reformed NG I see what you wrote and wonder if that was me so many years ago.
> 
> Look bottom line is you have no one to blame but yourself in any situation where you want something but never voice it. We always blame women when they expect us to mind read what they want but you are doing the same thing. Now to avoid conflict you are scheduling things to avoid them, like the daughter in Boston with finals. To me that's worse because you are manipulating to get what you want when you should just state it. You have every right to want something and including private time with your wife.
> 
> ...


this seems like the right approach to me, but one thing you've got to be prepared for is that your wife might say, "n,o I really want to spend time with these other people"-- despite the fact that you don't want to.

Not saying Wolf is doing this, but I think a lot of times the assumption behind the "be assertive" advice is that by being assertive, things will always go your way.

they might not and how you deal with THAT is probably more important than anything.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

turnera said:


> FTR, I wasn't saying to look at this is something you 'deserve.' That's Nice Guy talk and behavior and attitude, and is worse than worthless - it's harmful.
> 
> Look. If you were dating, and you wanted to come on to her, would you wait? Or would you make a move and see if she laughs and pushes you away? You'd make a move, right? Because that's what you want - to plant a big kiss on her. So what's different now? Is it because she's rejected you?
> 
> ...


I like this post but I think there's a bit more to discuss.

Sometimes, "liking" yourself will mean that you choose to stop having lopsided interactions with people who don't seem to care so much for you.

In these situations, you may have a desire to kiss this woman, but if this desire is based on some wishful fantasy that she really wants you to kiss her (when she really doesn't care), then is pursuing that fantasy really helpful?

It's one thing if it's a first date and she's maybe interested or maybe not. Taking a chance makes sense.

It's another when there are years and years of history.

At some point, it's like you're willfully trying to live in some romantic comedy instead of facing reality.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Wolf1974 said:


> Wow as a reformed NG I see what you wrote and wonder if that was me so many years ago.
> 
> Look bottom line is you have no one to blame but yourself in any situation where you want something but never voice it. We always blame women when they expect us to mind read what they want but you are doing the same thing. Now to avoid conflict you are scheduling things to avoid them, like the daughter in Boston with finals. To me that's worse because you are manipulating to get what you want when you should just state it. You have every right to want something and including private time with your wife.
> 
> ...


Handled like a boss! But @Anon1111 is right, too. You have to have courage of your convictions even if others choose not to follow you. To thine own self be true.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Anon1111 said:


> I think your instinct is right here. Thinking in terms of what you "deserve" is a recipe for disappointment.
> 
> Going back to the circumstances surrounding your Paris trip-- I don't think it could be more clear that the trip was supposed to be about celebrating your marriage. Still, your wife had other priorities.
> 
> ...


Everyone's input on the thread is really appreciated. But Anon still does the best job of cutting to the heart of the matter. Good stuff.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

farsidejunky said:


> Ok. Now what are you prepared to _do_ about it?


Quite frankly, I got no plans. Planning, scheming and approval seeking are what got me in this mess in the first place. Frankly, I'm tired for working a plan to make my relationship better. I just have to stop thinking, start acknowledging my own feelings / preferences are valid and let the chips fall where they may.

I'll go to NYC this weekend, hang out for the weekend with my wife then work like a banshee for three days while she tours museums. After that, who knows? At that point, I'll look up and figure out what I want. My goal is authenticity without agendas. It won't come naturally after two plus decades of NG behavior. But I gotta start somewhere.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

MarriedTex said:


> Everyone's input on the thread is really appreciated. But Anon still does the best job of cutting to the heart of the matter. Good stuff.


I relate to your situation.

here is what I've found to be common stages:

1. when nice guy stuff doesn't work, double down on nice guy stuff. many never escape this cycle

2. when doubling down on nice guy stuff fails, go 180 degrees and become hostile. this comes out of the expectation that "she should appreciate how hard I'm trying"

3. starting to understand that attraction is not a choice. it is either there or it's not. to use a clichéd phrase, your wife is not a soda machine that you can put coins into to pump out attraction

4. starting to consider that if attraction is not a choice, and it's either there or it's not, there no one to blame for it not being there (or vice versa). It just is, or it's just not. You can let yourself off the hook. You can let her off the hook too. 

5. if it's not your responsibility to "make" her be interested in you, you start to feel like you can just freely act how you want. You are no longer towing some weight-- will she like this or not? Not your problem. Never was!

6. if it's not her responsibility to like you, then however she might like you is just like a cool bonus. Like, wow, I just found a dollar on the ground. You don't walk around all day angry or sad about how you don't find dollars on the ground, right? So you don't need to be angry or sad about your lack of control over this either.

7. now you're just a guy. she's just a girl. you're both just one of many. billions. you happened, by extreme chance, to have ended up where you are together at this particular time. there is no reason it has to be this way. it could stop at any time, for any reason (or none at all). there is no burden. it's all choice. total freedom, every moment. so why should any of it really bother you?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> but one thing you've got to be prepared for is that your wife might say, "no I really want to spend time with these other people"-- despite the fact that you don't want to.


*This* is what it all comes down to.....

working up the courage to face that this might be the answer.

But, it's better in the long term to know exactly where you stand.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

MarriedTex said:


> As a result, I am reticent to ask for / demand the things that I want. I figure that if I am really important to a person, that they will choose to act in ways that demonstrate kindness to me. If they don't, well I didn't deserve their special attention and shouldn't be asking for it in the first place.


If a person was really important to you or me, we would choose to act in ways that demonstrate kindness to them.

Other people aren't like us. We're givers. They're takers. It sucks that not everyone is like us.

You've got to acknowledge and deal with reality. Thinking others should behave as we would will only lead to frustration.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> *This* is what it all comes down to.....
> 
> working up the courage to face that this might be the answer.
> 
> But, it's better in the long term to know exactly where you stand.


you can spend a huge amount of mental energy trying to convince yourself that "she doesn't really mean that" or "if only I did X, she would really want it"

all the while, you are continuously raising the stakes...

more and more extreme gestures to try to convince yourself it's not really like it appears to be...

by contrast, when you back off and just accept what she is actually telling you with her actions, you greatly LOWER the stakes associated with her disinterest.

strangely, by accepting it, you reduce its importance.

you no longer try to engineer events

you go to Paris if you WANT to. no other reason. whether she will like it is not the point.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

MarriedTex said:


> That's long way of saying that - for right now, at least - I'm just tired of "working" to make something happen in the relationship. It shouldn't be that hard. I recognize the risk of disengagement on my part. For the moment, I just need to chill, lower expectations and detach from outcome. For the moment, I just don't have stomach for trying the big, sweeping romantic gestures yet again.


If you're willing to do all the work in the relationship, it would probably improve.

But I can understand that you might not be willing to work that hard anymore. Why does it all have to be on you?

But you could tell her "I'm not happy with several things about our marriage. I'm not sure how much more effort I can put into fixing them all on my own. I sometimes consider just giving up, working on myself and disengaging from the marriage. I feel like I owe you the courtesy of letting you know what's going on in my head". Kind of a heads up in case she actually cares and is just oblivious.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

MarriedTex said:


> Quite frankly, I got no plans. Planning, scheming and approval seeking are what got me in this mess in the first place. Frankly, I'm tired for working a plan to make my relationship better. I just have to stop thinking, start acknowledging my own feelings / preferences are valid and let the chips fall where they may.
> 
> I'll go to NYC this weekend, hang out for the weekend with my wife then work like a banshee for three days while she tours museums. After that, who knows? At that point, I'll look up and figure out what I want. My goal is authenticity without agendas. It won't come naturally after two plus decades of NG behavior. But I gotta start somewhere.


I would suggest two things.

1. Start doing more for yourself. Much more. Pursue hobbies in your off time. Reset your priority list to you first, then however you want to balance it between the kids and your wife.

2. Communicate. "Wife, when you do x, it causes me to feel y, and leads me to think that I'm not a priority in your life."

What she does with that is up to her. But you have communicated things that bother you, or cause you to feel less loved by her. No more holding it in and allowing resentment to build through uncommunicated expectations.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> I would suggest two things.
> 
> 1. Start doing more for yourself. Much more. Pursue hobbies in your off time. Reset your priority list to you first, then however you want to balance it between the kids and your wife.
> 
> ...


communication is cool, but actions speak louder than words.

I would have this conversation 1 time, then at that point, everything is out in the open.

if, going forward, you're less engaged in the relationship and more interested in just doing your own thing, it should not require any explanation.

the most tricky aspect of this is to not make it passive aggressive. you're not ignoring her. you're focusing on yourself. huge difference.

just like when she would rather hang out with your son, she's not doing something to you. she genuinely just wants to hang out with her son. it's not about you.

the very cool thing about this path is that there is a huge world that you might not be seeing right now because you're overinvested in your relationship with your wife.


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

MarriedTex said:


> First of all, marriage is solid. Sex 2x-3x per week. Finances good. First year of empty nest (three kids, 23, 21, 19) going very well. Generally no problems.





Anon1111 said:


> with respect, you and your girlfriends are imagining these romantic gestures are coming from a guy that already turns you on. of course you would be turned on more by indications of interest from a guy you already found very attractive.
> 
> now imagine the overtures came instead from a guy you felt lukewarm about. you might not find them so compelling. you might even find them annoying. if the guy was particularly unattractive, you might even find them offensive.


Why do I have to imagine the overtures came from a guy I felt lukewarm, about or who I found unattractive? The overtures that I suggested would be from a man to his *wife*. The OP stated in his first post that his marriage was solid, he was happy with his sex life; no problems except his "nice guy" tendencies.

You can be all passive aggressive about it if you want and say that it's not fair that he should have to tell her what he expects (she should know), and that instead of him being direct he should dial down his interactions with her. I think it's the exact opposite of what a guy in a good marriage with a good sex life should do under the circumstances. I think if he wants to mess up his marriage though, that's one way to go about it.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Anon1111 said:


> I relate to your situation.
> 
> here is what I've found to be common stages:
> 
> ...


I think I'm somewhere between Stage 3 and Stage 4 on this timeline. LIke I said before, still a long way to go. I try not to care about her reactions / treatment of me. Still doing things in an attempt to appease her, but not nearly as hopeless as I was five years ago. 

The old me used to announce "I'm going to go take a shower now," almost as if asking for permission to take one. Or I would let my mood being entirely dictated by her mood. I've broken free of those minscule, but telling, bad habits. But I stillhave attachment to outcome on big stuff, and don't do nearly enough for myself. 

We became empty nesters in September and I had envisioned that all this extra time would open up for me to pursue my own passions. Plain truth is that I'm so out of practice pursuing my passions that I don't really know how to start. I literally have spent two decades living vicariously through the kids activities (coaching soccer, scouting etc.) that I draw a blank when I start thinking about what I really want to do. This is my current challenge.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Just because she is his wife doesn't mean that she can't be lukewarm about him.

I think she had had plenty of opportunities to respond to his planning and has had a.. well, lukewarm response.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> Why do I have to imagine the overtures came from a guy I felt lukewarm, about or who I found unattractive? The overtures that I suggested would be from a man to his *wife*. The OP stated in his first post that his marriage was solid, he was happy with his sex life; no problems except his "nice guy" tendencies.
> 
> You can be all passive aggressive about it if you want and say that it's not fair that he should have to tell her what he expects (she should know), and that instead of him being direct he should dial down his interactions with her. I think it's the exact opposite of what a guy in a good marriage with a good sex life should do under the circumstances. I think if he wants to mess up his marriage though, that's one way to go about it.


to be honest, I didn't notice the part about them having sex 2-3x per week.

I was really focusing on the fact that he does not feel appreciated in his marriage and the sense I got that he was more into his wife than she is into him.

I'm not advocating that anyone should blow up his marriage.

What I am saying is that if you get the sense that you're more into your spouse than she is into you, that it is reasonable to back off.

Again, it's not about being passive aggressive. It's about taking control of your own happiness and not overinvesting your sense of self worth in another person who you ultimately don't control.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

OliviaG said:


> Why do I have to imagine the overtures came from a guy I felt lukewarm, about or who I found unattractive? The overtures that I suggested would be from a man to his *wife*. The OP stated in his first post that his marriage was solid, he was happy with his sex life; no problems except his "nice guy" tendencies.
> 
> You can be all passive aggressive about it if you want and say that it's not fair that he should have to tell her what he expects (she should know), and that instead of him being direct he should dial down his interactions with her. I think it's the exact opposite of what a guy in a good marriage with a good sex life should do under the circumstances. I think if he wants to mess up his marriage though, that's one way to go about it.


There in lies the risk for me, Olivia. Perfectly identified. I can muddle through and likely be moderately satisfied with my lot in life on a day-to-day basis. Would I be more happy settling for current (decent) existence or should I consciously rock the boat , perhaps even destabilize the relationship , for something that may or may not turn out to be better? I know loads and loads of people in worse situations than I face. That's why I called my situation "first-world problems" in original post. We have sparked good discussion here, but my level of misery does not come close to matching situations that others on TAM face.

These doubts keep "kicking the can down the road," implementing enough NMMNG principles to keep me sane but maybe not fulling embracing the program in a way that could lead to greater fulfillment.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

MarriedTex said:


> I think I'm somewhere between Stage 3 and Stage 4 on this timeline. LIke I said before, still a long way to go. I try not to care about her reactions / treatment of me. Still doing things in an attempt to appease her, but not nearly as hopeless as I was five years ago.
> 
> The old me used to announce "I'm going to go take a shower now," almost as if asking for permission to take one. Or I would let my mood being entirely dictated by her mood. I've broken free of those minscule, but telling, bad habits. But I stillhave attachment to outcome on big stuff, and don't do nearly enough for myself.
> 
> We became empty nesters in September and I had envisioned that all this extra time would open up for me to pursue my own passions. Plain truth is that I'm so out of practice pursuing my passions that I don't really know how to start. I literally have spent two decades living vicariously through the kids activities (coaching soccer, scouting etc.) that I draw a blank when I start thinking about what I really want to do. This is my current challenge.


were there things that you would have done if you had never had kids or gotten married?

things that you felt were indulgences that you couldn't justify since you had a family to support?

were there places YOU wanted to go but didn't because your wife and kids wouldn't be interested?

even if these types of things are just a faint memory, you might want to explore them. 

you may find that some old interests can come roaring back once you open those doors.

you may have defined yourself for many years mostly in relation to the other people in your life.

now you have an opportunity to get reacquainted with yourself apart from those relationships.


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

Anon1111 said:


> to be honest, I didn't notice the part about them having sex 2-3x per week.
> 
> I was really focusing on the fact that he does not feel appreciated in his marriage and the sense I got that he was more into his wife than she is into him.
> 
> ...


He states that he has a good marriage with no problems. He planned a trip that got all changed around against his will but instead of objecting to the changes, he smiled throughout the trip and went along with them. He resents the he!! out of it but still says nothing. He also says he has "nice guy" tendencies.

It really sounds to me as though he has a problem stating what he wants and enforcing boundaries in his relationships. Not just with his wife, but with his kids too. 

I don't see how disengaging from his wife will be helpful. If he does that he'll just be acting petulant and she won't have a clue why. And it will not make him more attractive; quite the opposite, IMO.


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

MarriedTex said:


> There in lies the risk for me, Olivia. Perfectly identified. I can muddle through and likely be moderately satisfied with my lot in life on a day-to-day basis. Would I be more happy settling for current (decent) existence or should I consciously rock the boat , perhaps even destabilize the relationship , for something that may or may not turn out to be better?


How would clearly communicating what you want (in a pleasant, but assertive manner) destabilize your relationship? Why would it rock the boat? If you had said to your wife right from the get-go, that you couldn't wait for Paris and a week of alone-time with her, that you were so looking forward to being together just the two of you, how do you envision that would have played out?


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

MarriedTex said:


> There in lies the risk for me, Olivia. Perfectly identified. I can muddle through and likely be moderately satisfied with my lot in life on a day-to-day basis. Would I be more happy settling for current (decent) existence or should I consciously rock the boat , perhaps even destabilize the relationship , for something that may or may not turn out to be better? I know loads and loads of people in worse situations than I face. That's why I called my situation "first-world problems" in original post. We have sparked good discussion here, but my level of misery does not come close to matching situations that others on TAM face.
> 
> These doubts keep "kicking the can down the road," implementing enough NMMNG principles to keep me sane but maybe not fulling embracing the program in a way that could lead to greater fulfillment.


not trying to pound your head in with this stuff, but it really took me a long time to internalize it so it might be helpful to you.

the stuff I am advocating is not about rocking the boat or destabilizing anything. 

it is simply a natural outcome when trying harder and harder to get something you want from someone else repeatedly fails.

maybe your relationship is not so bad. maybe you can turn on some kind of charm to get your wife to react in the way you'd like. I'm not trying to be condescending-- maybe there is.

Examine your history to see whether this is realistic. That's step 1. be honest.

if you honestly can't see any overture changing the status quo, what's the alternative? be mad that doing the same thing over and over again doesn't work? or is it more reasonable to say, hey, this is costing me too much and I could be happier if I redirected that energy on something else that I can control.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> He states that he has a good marriage with no problems. He planned a trip that got all changed around against his will but instead of objecting to the changes, he smiled throughout the trip and went along with them. He resents the he!! out of it but still says nothing. He also says he has "nice guy" tendencies.
> 
> It really sounds to me as though he has a problem stating what he wants and enforcing boundaries in his relationships. Not just with his wife, but with his kids too.
> 
> I don't see how disengaging from his wife will be helpful. If he does that he'll just be acting petulant and she won't have a clue why. And it will not make him more attractive; quite the opposite, IMO.


I think we're talking past each other a bit.

if you go down the path I'm advocating, you're past the point of caring how your wife will react to it.

it is explicitly not about whether she'll like it or not.

importantly, one aspect of this is that you are not trying to mess with her. so it's not about being petulant.

It's like if you were trying to go on a date with a girl and she kept bringing her friend along. You go a few times and try to get her alone, but she always manages to include her friend. 

Eventually, you have to decide whether you can just have fun in the group or whether you'd rather just go your own way.

Maybe if you skip it, the girl will decide on her own to join you in whatever you're doing. Maybe not. But at that point, you accept either outcome. There's no manipulation.


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

Anon1111 said:


> I think we're talking past each other a bit.
> 
> if you go down the path I'm advocating, you're past the point of caring how your wife will react to it.
> 
> ...



I see what you're saying, but I would be more attracted to they guy who says, "Leave your friend at home next time; I want to be alone with you", because NOW, I know that he's really into me. If he just keeps accepting the group scenarios I figure he doesn't care that much. If he decides to go his own way altogether, then I know *for sure* that he's not really into me.


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

OliviaG said:


> How would clearly communicating what you want (in a pleasant, but assertive manner) destabilize your relationship? Why would it rock the boat? If you had said to your wife right from the get-go, that you couldn't wait for Paris and a week of alone-time with her, that you were so looking forward to being together just the two of you, how do you envision that would have played out?


I'd really like to hear the OP's answer to the above.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> I see what you're saying, but I would be more attracted to they guy who says, "Leave your friend at home next time; I want to be alone with you", because NOW, I know that he's really into me. If he just keeps accepting the group scenarios I figure he doesn't care that much. If he decides to go his own way altogether, then I know *for sure* that he's not really into me.


I totally agree that Tex should explain stuff to his wife.

My sense is that this is pretty bottled up, so it will probably come out as super whiny. 

She will probably be surprised at the level of importance he attached to this trip.

He is going to need to take some responsibility for creating these covert expectations and then resenting her for it when she didn't fulfill his wishes.

He might say that he's going to try to be more up front about when he wants alone time with her, but, after years of getting the sense that alone time is not a priority for her, he's doesn't have the energy to try to convince her to share that with him.


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

Anon1111 said:


> He might say that he's going to try to be more up front about when he wants alone time with her, but, after years of getting the sense that alone time is not a priority for her, he's doesn't have the energy to try to convince her to share that with him.


If he's sensed for years that alone time is not a priority for her, then yes, they've got a big problem. My sense is that if alone time was not a priority for her then they'd not have a satisfactory sex life. But we need the OP to clarify that point.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

OliviaG said:


> How would clearly communicating what you want (in a pleasant, but assertive manner) destabilize your relationship? Why would it rock the boat? If you had said to your wife right from the get-go, that you couldn't wait for Paris and a week of alone-time with her, that you were so looking forward to being together just the two of you, how do you envision that would have played out?


We're trying to reverse years of established behavior patterns, here. I've learned over the years that things turn out to be more enjoyable overall if we just do what she wants to do in the first place. 

I've been to more operas, symphonies and ballets over the years than I can count. We had three kids in first five years of marriage, so we established a date night pattern of activities that tilted more towards her interests. I thought it was the least I could do after she was spending full-time taking care of kids. While not my cup to tea, these events were fine with me - just going out and doing date night for anything with her made for a good night. 

I like a good comedy club or maybe a Will Ferrel movie from time to time. Early on, I learned wife was not a good date for these types of venues. She would audibly sigh in the midst of the event. Through my NG-ness, I would feel guilty and my enjoyment of the event would be minimized. It essentially became counter-productive to waste an evening out on something that tilted towards my interests. If she wasn't having fun, I wouldn't have fun either. 

Compounding my situation, I wouldn't take time away from family to pursue my own interests with others. As boys got to later teen years, I would take them to comedy clubs / dumb comedies every once in awhile. But overall, I figured the path of least resistance was to just lean towards her side. 

There are some things that we both like to do, like play cards with friends. So it's not all bad. But - in general - I've set precedent that date nights are all about wife's interests. So - to start changing my approach now, to start insisting on doing stuff the leans my way - I believe that would have the opportunity to destabilize the relationship. 

I recognize the inherent problems in my approach and the error of my historical ways. No need to beat that horse. I recognize I need to change. The question is will my attempts to change wind up actually upsetting the existing apple cart.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

OliviaG said:


> If he's sensed for years that alone time is not a priority for her, then yes, they've got a big problem. My sense is that if alone time was not a priority for her then they'd not have a satisfactory sex life. But we need the OP to clarify that point.


Alone time probably not the problem. As described in the post above, however, we would probably best describe it as "alone time on wife's terms." Usually that's good enough for me. I had higher expectations for Paris, however, and that lead me to posting this thread to work through my issues.


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

MarriedTex said:


> Alone time probably not the problem. As described in the post above, however, we would probably best describe it as "alone time on wife's terms." Usually that's good enough for me. I had higher expectations for Paris, however, and that lead me to posting this thread to work through my issues.


Then I really think that being more assertive is the solution for you going forward. I would drop the resentment about Paris, but going forward, resolve to be assertive and communicate unequivocally what you want. Not in an aggressive way; in a nice way, but in a way that leaves no room for interpretation.

I think your problem can be easily solved and I bet both you and your wife will be happier if you become more assertive about what you want. Because any wife who loves you wants you to be happy. And if she finds out that being alone with *her* is what makes you happy, then that is the ideal scenario for her. Be bold; it will pay off.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

OliviaG said:


> Then I really think that being more assertive is the solution for you going forward. I would drop the resentment about Paris, but going forward, resolve to be assertive and communicate unequivocally what you want. Not in an aggressive way; in a nice way, but in a way that leaves no room for interpretation.
> 
> I think your problem can be easily solved and I bet both you and your wife will be happier if you become more assertive about what you want. Because any wife who loves you wants you to be happy. And if she finds out that being alone with *her* is what makes you happy, then that is the ideal scenario for her. Be bold; it will pay off.


I agree. There is a solution to be had here. Many thanks for the advice & pep talk.


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

You're welcome. All the best to you.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

I'm inclined to side with Olivia at this point. Your relationship doesn't sound that far gone. You're still doing stuff together. You still have a very solid sex life. 

you both are going to need some time to adjust to your new lifestyle.

you probably each went a little far into individual silos in the process of raising kids.

if you can emphasize that you are excited about the prospect of focusing on each other a bit more, and make an effort to keep it low pressure and fun, you might have some surprising results.

I do think that exploring your individual interests will pay off here. Both for you personally and also for your relationship since it will take pressure off the need for validation from your wife.

Maybe you could start going solo to dumb movies and suggest that your wife meet up with you after for a drink. she could even go to the opera while you're watching the movie. win/win


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> I do think that exploring your individual interests will pay off here. Both for you personally and also for your relationship since it will take pressure off the need for validation from your wife.
> 
> Maybe you could start going solo to dumb movies and suggest that your wife meet up with you after for a drink. she could even go to the opera while you're watching the movie. win/win


I agree that there's room for doing your own thing. It would probably be very good for you, and also for your marriage.

But also do find new date activities that both you and your wife will enjoy. Date night should never be a "your stuff" or "her stuff" deal, which tends to encourage taking turns - and it's uglier cousin, keeping score. Again, watch out for setting up oppositional situations in your marriage, where one of you "wins" and the other "loses". Dates should always be win/win. 

So, instead of the opera or a comedy club, which only one of you actually enjoys, go do something both of you enjoy. Find things to do together that you're both enthusiastic about. Take a cooking class, go bowling, go dancing, try a new restaurant, have c0cktails at a new place, go for a romantic walk, go antiquing, go fishing, have a picnic, play laser tag. Something, anything, that both of you will have fun doing together.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Agree with @Rowan about finding mutually fun activities. 

The only thing I'd caution is that if you start to feel like it's becoming your job to find all of these activities, and if you start to feel resentful as a result, then it may be more trouble than it's worth. 

The major theme has to be lighthearted and fun. 

So definitely give it a shot but be wary of falling back into old habits. 

You may find it easier to just say I'm doing this thing I'm interested in and you're welcome to join if it interests you too. But then go either way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Thanks to everyone for their replies. Heading out to NYC soon. Will check back in upon my return in about a week.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Back from NYC. Good trip overall, but no life-changing revelations or anything. Did a couple of Broadway shows. I wound up pushing for one that she was lukewarm on that turned out to be her favorite of the trip. 

It's a very good model for me to go on trips that combine some work and some free time with her. I am much better at asserting that I need to commit to work functions / activities. Helps break me of the "people-pleasing" habits that I can fall into. 

Still traces of deferential Tex, of course. Monday evening was mostly dark on Broadway, so I was marginally interested in hitting the Yankee game. It wasn't a must do on the list, but there are worse ways to spend the night. I deferred to her preference of touring down in the WTC area for the evening. That was fine, too. 

All in all, some good but still have work to do on myself. I suspect I'll fall in middle where I don't move things to "great" but I do well enough to keep them from getting terrible. It took me decades to dig myself into this hole, It will take awhile to get the ship fully righted.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

How was the intimacy?


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

MarriedTex said:


> Back from NYC. Good trip overall, but no life-changing revelations or anything. Did a couple of Broadway shows. I wound up pushing for one that she was lukewarm on that turned out to be her favorite of the trip.
> 
> It's a very good model for me to go on trips that combine some work and some free time with her. I am much better at asserting that I need to commit to work functions / activities. Helps break me of the "people-pleasing" habits that I can fall into.
> 
> ...


good outcome. much better than Paris, right? reasonable expectations, no resentment.

one thing that may get you over the hump is just accepting that your marriage is not what you would wish it to be.

I know this sounds somewhat depressing, but if you really accept it, it takes so much pressure off and actually can make everything much more enjoyable.

You drop the expectation that it "should" be some other way besides what it really is.

you actually do this all the time in your everyday life and don't really think about it.

but for some reason in these really emotional situations, you can let your emotions carry you away. your mind can end up living in a fantasy of what you wish would happen and you end up being constantly disappointed that reality does not measure up.

not everyone is willing to simply accept the status quo though.

I just offer this because you've indicated that you're not willing to upset the apple cart, so you might benefit by working on this type of direction.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Anon1111 said:


> good outcome. much better than Paris, right? reasonable expectations, no resentment.
> 
> one thing that may get you over the hump is just accepting that your marriage is not what you would wish it to be.
> 
> ...


Yes, NYC far better than Paris. You're right on the expectations side of things. Most times, I expect little and my expectations are usually met or exceeded.

Turning down level of expectations really is only way to survive. Xmas-time used to beat me up big-time. I would go to big effort, "making" Xmas for wife and kids. As kids got older - and wife's lack of reciprocation continued - I turned down temperature / emphasis on Xmas. Lower effort, lower expectations, lower disappointment.

It's what I do to cope, and it works to the most extent. But I do fear that I edit or curb my desires / aspirations in many situations just to keep from experiencing disappointment.

Overall, I hear - and agree with - what you're saying. I can't help but wonder though whether my approach to life is smart (maximiizing what I have given the cards dealt) or just selling myself short.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

MarriedTex said:


> Yes, NYC far better than Paris. You're right on the expectations side of things. Most times, I expect little and my expectations are usually met or exceeded.
> 
> Turning down level of expectations really is only way to survive. Xmas-time used to beat me up big-time. I would go to big effort, "making" Xmas for wife and kids. As kids got older - and wife's lack of reciprocation continued - I turned down temperature / emphasis on Xmas. Lower effort, lower expectations, lower disappointment.
> 
> ...


I'm with you on the Christmas thing. 

It's natural to have these types of thoughts. The question is whether you LIVE in those thoughts or whether you live in actual reality.

You're never going to be able to stop having the "what if" thoughts, but you can learn to recognize them for what they are-- really insignificant, inconsequential things. 

Basically, unless you are willing to do something to actualize them, they are nothing but brain secretions. Just one more thing you must deal with like cutting your toenails.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

farsidejunky said:


> How was the intimacy?


Decent. Twice in four nights. Spirited, as usual. We're always both very engaged. While not a duty sex arrangement in the least, I usually wind up putting in more "effort" into our times together. 

In empty-nest mode, we have plenty of intimate time to ourselves. So the old drive for crazy hotel sex is not as primal as it once was. No complaints, but nothing earth shattering either.


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