# Had my first meeting with my WAW about a separation agreement



## papa5280 (Oct 12, 2011)

That was frustrating. Long post.

Short background: She was a SAHW. She walked away 9 months ago, leaving me with the house and the kids. She has been living with her single sister, and it sounds like her plans are to do that indefinitely. She went through a spiritual "awakening" as she was leaving. She's never shown any interest in money or possessions over the past year, other than a nominal amount that I gave her each month while we were sorting things out. In December, she decided she didn't want to save the marriage. She was done. I closed all joint credit cards and bank accounts and essentially severed all financial co-mingling. For another couple of months, I helped her with her expenses. Since then, there has been no money changing hands. She got a job and has been paying her own bills. From the house, she has taken her clothes, and left virtually everything else with the instructions to give it away or throw it away. 

So, we met yesterday, at my request, to see if we could get a broad outline of an agreement, before bringing lawyers into the picture. I've never seen her as such a lost little girl, and not in an attractive way, or in a way that would make me want to help her. She assumed that someone else would decide everything, and that she doesn't need to make any decisions. 

A couple of examples....

Money: 
W - "Don't we just put down everything we have, and the judge decides how we divide it?" 
Me - the only way that happens is if we can't decide, your lawyer writes a brief, my lawyer writes a brief, a judge decides, and between us, we're $30k poorer for the process.

Kids (16 and 14): 
W - "Well, can't we both be the final decision makers?" 
Me - "What if we don't agree?" 
W- "Then the kids can decide." 
Me - "We are the parents. They are kids. They have input, but don't get to decide the big issues."

At the end of the day, I'm going to write up what I propose, she'll review, and if we're close, I'll have a lawyer write it up and she'll have a lawyer review.

But, the really frustrating thing is that I know this is going to cost me more in legal fees because she's too wimpy or disinterested to take charge of her life. I know she's going to end up with a lawyer who will manipulate her into changes, just to run up a bill. And I'll need to do the same.


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

papa5280 said:


> But, the really frustrating thing is that I know this is going to cost me more in legal fees because she's too wimpy or disinterested to take charge of her life. I know she's going to end up with a lawyer who will manipulate her into changes, just to run up a bill. And I'll need to do the same.


Not necessarily, so long as your fair. 

For example:

1. Children: Joint Custody (you both make decision) with physical custody going to you. That means the children stay with you and she gets to visit at times agreed upon by you. Now, in case of emergency, you make the call as primary care giver. If it's a non-emergency, you can discuss it with her.

2. Since she left, you get to keep the house until the children reach a majority (age), then agree to either buy out her interest or sell the house. If you can afford to buy her out earlier (while the children still reside there) then do it that way. Either way, the children stay with you in the marital home.

3. She may be required to pay child support to you. She may also claim she deserves spousal support. Get her to waive the spousal support in lieu of child support. She can't come back later looking for money from you, once she has waived her rights. That being said, you can't waive child support, so YOU can come back later and ask for help. Either way, it cuts HER off financially from you.

4. Her life is what it is, and your primary concern at this point should be you and the children. Any regrets she has in the future are on her.

If you can draft up some sort of an agreement that includes the above, and she signs it (and has it notarized), you can submit that to the court (without a lawyer) and be done with it. Therefore no lawyer gets to twist it around later.

Do you think the above is an option?


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

Well said, survivor. She doesn't really sound at all interested in a lawyer, so I think this can be worked out.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

Survivorwife really laid it out well. The only thing I would add is to look at whatever examples you can find on the web to get ideas about other things you need to address, such as visitation, division of joint assets (sounds like she may be willing to let you have everything, but don't assume that this is indeed the case) and what not.


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

GTdad said:


> Survivorwife really laid it out well. The only thing I would add is to look at whatever examples you can find on the web to get ideas about other things you need to address, such as visitation, division of joint assets (sounds like she may be willing to let you have everything, but don't assume that this is indeed the case) and what not.


 Tangible Personal Property.
The parties shall have divided between them the personal effects, household furniture and furnishings, and all other articles of tangible personal property which have heretofore been used by them individually or in common as provided in Attachment "A" attached hereto. Otherwise, all such property as not listed in Attachment "A," or otherwise provided for herein, shall be divided between the parties to their mutual satisfaction as of the execution of this Agreement.

WAIVER OF ALIMONY
The parties hereto waive any and all right to alimony, spouse support and maintenance, and hereby covenant that they will not claim, now or in the future, any sums of money for themselves for alimony, support, and/or maintenance; this provision shall not be subject to modification by any Court. The parties hereby expressly waive the right ever hereafter to have any Court change or make a different provision for the support and maintenance of either, and they further expressly covenant and agree that under no circumstances whatsoever shall either of them hereafter apply to any court for a modification of the terms of the foregoing provision.

COURT COSTS AND COUNSEL FEES
The parties hereto agree that each shall be responsible for his/her own attorney fees and each hereby releases the other from any obligation to pay any other or further counsel fees for him or her or on his/her behalf in connection with any matter or anything whatsoever, with the exception that if either party shall violate the terms of the Agreement, the violating party shall be responsible for the reasonable attorney fees incurred by the other enforcing this Agreement. The parties further agree that they shall divide equally all court costs and filing fees necessary to obtain a final divorce.

CUSTODY AND VISITATION
A. It is hereby agreed between the parties that they shall have joint legal custody of their minor children, 
(names and birthdates). It is further agreed that (Father) shall have physical custody of the parties minor children, subject to the visitation rights of (Mother)
B. Such visitation rights shall include the following: (list the agreed upon times, dates, holidays and/or particulars)

Just a few gems from my file.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

Hey Papa, business aside for the moment, how are you and the kids holding up?


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## papa5280 (Oct 12, 2011)

GTdad said:


> Hey Papa, business aside for the moment, how are you and the kids holding up?


I'm holding up, but the kids are a mess. 

The 16 (almost 17) year old boy has had issues for years, many of which have come from inconsistent parenting messages. He is essentially living at a friend's in the neighborhood during the summer, because he's a pothead who steals from me. I told him at the beginning of the summer that either (1) he has to give me clean UAs and/or (2) get a job or (3) he's welcome to sleep at the house, but when I leave at 6:30 in the morning, he needs to pack a lunch and leave for the day. He's not willing to give up pot or stealing, or to get a job, and there's no way he's getting up at 6:30 for me, so he has made other arrangements. He has too many enablers in his life, including his mother, and I'm not going to be that anymore. His issues were both triggers to the WAW and made much worse by his parents' inability to parent coherently.

The 14 year old is spending the summer with her 28 year old sister 1,000 miles away. Big sis has a big family with her (virtual) husband, three little kids, live-in mother-in-law and live-in sister-in-law and her partner, all living in one very nice, very spacious, but very chaotic house. The 14 year old feels connected to a family there. The family she lost here. Summer there is a very, very good thing for her. 

I'm using the quiet time to get the house ship-shape, get my head ship-shape, get my body ship-shape, get my job ship-shape, and to work on getting a social life that doesn't revolve around my wife or my kids.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

Man, I'm sorry. I hurt for your kids and I don't even know them.

It sounds like you have a great plan, though. Well done, and best wishes for getting yourself squared away.


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## papa5280 (Oct 12, 2011)

survivorwife said:


> Not necessarily, so long as your fair.


I'm trying to be, without being a patsy myself.  I did come into the marriage with some significant assets (401k, investments and life insurance with cash value). So, I'm not willing to do a 50/50. But, we've been married 17 years, so I know that courts might consider much of that to be marital assets now. She's been stay at home for about 10 years, so virtually all of the cash inflow has been from my salary. So, most of the incremental savings, 401k growth, etc...are marital assets.

For example:



survivorwife said:


> 1. Children: Joint Custody (you both make decision) with physical custody going to you. That means the children stay with you and she gets to visit at times agreed upon by you. Now, in case of emergency, you make the call as primary care giver. If it's a non-emergency, you can discuss it with her.


Pretty much the way I'm going to write it up. Especially since I will be the one carrying the insurance and financially responsible for health and school decisions.




survivorwife said:


> 2. Since she left, you get to keep the house until the children reach a majority (age), then agree to either buy out her interest or sell the house. If you can afford to buy her out earlier (while the children still reside there) then do it that way. Either way, the children stay with you in the marital home.


She left the home and I've been working on clearing it out and cleaning it up. Definitely my plan to stay in it and keep it until the youngest (14) is out. She thinks we could get MUCH more for the home than I think we could get. So, my proposal was that we use the home equity and/or proceeds to cover college costs. If there's anything left over, we split it.




survivorwife said:


> 3. She may be required to pay child support to you. She may also claim she deserves spousal support. Get her to waive the spousal support in lieu of child support. She can't come back later looking for money from you, once she has waived her rights. That being said, you can't waive child support, so YOU can come back later and ask for help. Either way, it cuts HER off financially from you.


I make three times what she does, and we were doing quite well on my salary before. She and I agreed that what we want is a net zero monthly transfer, post divorce. I ran the child care calculator, and with me having physical custody, she would owe me $450 per month. I like the waiver idea. Makes more sense than trading checks each month.



survivorwife said:


> 4. Her life is what it is, and your primary concern at this point should be you and the children. Any regrets she has in the future are on her.


I'm 100% on board with that. My concern for her extends to her relationship with the kids (and it not countermanding mine), and getting disentangled with as much as is fair. Any emotional connection to her is gone.



survivorwife said:


> If you can draft up some sort of an agreement that includes the above, and she signs it (and has it notarized), you can submit that to the court (without a lawyer) and be done with it. Therefore no lawyer gets to twist it around later.
> 
> Do you think the above is an option?


She did comment, after seeing everything that was involved, that she thought she was going to need a lawyer to look at what we did. I have no problem with that, since she needs to protect herself. I just worry that her friends will direct her to a shark who will be able to create billable conflict where there doesn't need to be any. If it looks like she might head that way, I might push for sessions with a mediator instead, so that she can know that she's not being steamrolled.


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## papa5280 (Oct 12, 2011)

survivorwife said:


> Just a few gems from my file.


Thanks...I will borrow liberally.


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