# How should we "criticize" our spouse?



## PAC (Sep 20, 2012)

I have failed to establish boundaries with my wife. I'm currently trying to explicitly write out exactly what my boundaries are. I plan to eventually share these with my wife so that we are completely on the same page.

Anyway, I'm trying to write out exactly what I expect with her during criticism, but I'm not exactly sure what I'm looking for.

I want her to be able to tell me if I'm doing something wrong, but I also don't want her to say it in a "criticizing" way. I guess what I'm looking for is constructive criticism, but I don't exactly know how to define it. What is the difference between constructive and destructive criticism? How do you all think I should define it in concrete terms?

Also, what boundaries do you have with your spouse?

Thanks in advance


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## Liam (Nov 13, 2009)

If you both understand that any criticism will be for the good of the other person and your marriage in general, then that's a good place to start. 

I am a big believer in the "I feel" rule when it comes to communication. Saying "I feel" before saying something gives it a non accusatory feel and it's much less likely that your partner will get defensive. On the other hand, starting something with "you..." often has the opposite effect.


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## PAC (Sep 20, 2012)

Liam said:


> If you both understand that any criticism will be for the good of the other person and your marriage in general, then that's a good place to start.
> 
> I am a big believer in the "I feel" rule when it comes to communication. Saying "I feel" before saying something gives it a non accusatory feel and it's much less likely that your partner will get defensive. On the other hand, starting something with "you..." often has the opposite effect.


Haha, I've tried getting her to follow that rule before. It had some problems, though. For example, it just devolved in to an accusatory "_I feel_ that _you_ did X."


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## tryingtobebetter (Aug 6, 2012)

Others may have ideas about definitions and boundaries.

My main thought (which I discussed with my wife) is that perhaps the most important issue is how it is said rather than what is said. A gentle, affectionate tone of voice with matching body language goes a long way towards making criticism palatable. If your whole demeanour is saying 'I love you' then what you say is much more likely to be received in a satisfactory way.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

quit that you stupid BI*CH, for crying out loud how many time do I have to tell you !!!!! I feel like I'm married child! #@$**%@#


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## PAC (Sep 20, 2012)

tryingtobebetter said:


> Others may have ideas about definitions and boundaries.
> 
> My main thought (which I discussed with my wife) is that perhaps the most important issue is how it is said rather than what is said. A gentle, affectionate tone of voice with matching body language goes a long way towards making criticism palatable. If your whole demeanour is saying 'I love you' then what you say is much more likely to be received in a satisfactory way.


I completely agree - that is what I'm looking for. Can you think of a way of saying that in 1-2 sentences, though? I'm trying to find a way to define that exact concept in concrete terms (or at least as close to concrete as possible).


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Please don't write her any notes.

If she speaks to you in a disrespectful fashion, say "don't speak to me that way".

You should be open to any criticsim, suggestion or anything at all from her so long is she is delivering it in a respectful way.

Simply, don't tolerate disprespect. However, her opinion that you are wrong is not disrespect.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Don't over complicate simple communication. Avoid things sounding like ultimatums. Say how you want things to be and point out high priority beliefs.

Resolve differences after you've disagreed and left the subject alone for a week or so.

Our boundaries are pretty simple. We don't keep secrets, we are transparent, we avoid having OSF meaning one-on-one time with OSF, girls night out or guys night out would be fine once in a while but we don't really do it much, we don't show disrespect especially in front of people. Just common sense stuff but it helps that we communicate and know how we each think things should be.


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## PAC (Sep 20, 2012)

Hicks said:


> Please don't write her any notes.
> 
> If she speaks to you in a disrespectful fashion, say "don't speak to me that way".
> 
> ...


So you don't think I should share it with her? Why not? I trying to ensure that she knows exactly what I consider intolerable behavior. If I figure out exactly what I want and don't tell her, won't it just be really confusing for her?

I also am trying to find the line between being respectful / disrespectful. I can identify what is respectful or disrespectful, but don't really have a clue actually stating what it is.. Maybe I shouldn't even worry about defining it.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Unless she has asked you, I would be real careful about showing her anything I had written down regarding my expectations.

How about you modeling the behavior you would like her to have. Like for instance,

"I feel like you're criticizing me when you say ..."


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## PAC (Sep 20, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> Don't over complicate simple communication. Avoid things sounding like ultimatums. Say how you want things to be and point out high priority beliefs.
> 
> Resolve differences after you've disagreed and left the subject alone for a week or so.
> 
> Our boundaries are pretty simple. We don't keep secrets, we are transparent, we avoid having OSF meaning one-on-one time with OSF, girls night out or guys night out would be fine once in a while but we don't really do it much, we don't show disrespect especially in front of people. Just common sense stuff but it helps that we communicate and know how we each think things should be.


I agree with what you're saying. However the problem lies in our differences in perception. What I consider respectful / disrespectful is never precisely what she considers respectful / disrespectful.

That is a large reason of why I'm trying to explicitly tell her what my measure is, so that she can avoid crossing my lines.


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## Leahdorus (Jul 28, 2008)

You could try rephrasing the "I feel" stuff more like this:

"When you do/say ____, I feel _____."


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## tryingtobebetter (Aug 6, 2012)

PAC said:


> I completely agree - that is what I'm looking for. Can you think of a way of saying that in 1-2 sentences, though? I'm trying to find a way to define that exact concept in concrete terms (or at least as close to concrete as possible).


Say, for example, 'I want you to tell me if there are things I can do better. It is a lot easier for me to change if you tell me gently as I am not trying deliberately to annoy you.' You could then ask her to say things along the lines of 'you know I love you very much (perhaps with an arm around your shoulder) but there is just one thing ( at any one time) which I would really appreciate if you did (differently).

Have you explored the five languages of love?


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

Get this book and read it together:

Difficult Conversations: How to Discuss What Matters Most: Douglas Stone,Bruce Patton,Sheila Heen,Roger Fisher: 9780143118442: Amazon.com: Books

Do not use black and white, accusatory statements like, "You always," or "You never." 

No name-calling.

No dragging up the past. Focus on one behavior.

Stop the discussion if either one is upset.

Remember that you are a team. If one wins, the other loses, and then resentment builds.


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## PAC (Sep 20, 2012)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Unless she has asked you, I would be real careful about showing her anything I had written down regarding my expectations.
> 
> How about you modeling the behavior you would like her to have. Like for instance,
> 
> "I feel like you're criticizing me when you say ..."


It is actually something that we've done before. For instance, we have written down what each of us expects for household chores. For a while it was really annoying when we both expected the other person to do something and they didn't. To solve that we listed all of the household responsibilities and apportioned them. It has actually worked really well.

So you don't think I should attempt the same approach regarding boundaries? I guess I can see that a written boundary may implicitly accuse her of doing something wrong.. Hmm..

I'm just not completely sure how to make it clear to her. I understand leading by example, but have run in to the problem where I find myself saying "I don't do X to you, why are you doing X to me?"


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

chillymorn said:


> quit that you stupid BI*CH, for crying out loud how many time do I have to tell you !!!!! I feel like I'm married child! #@$**%@#


Funny. My sense of humor is just as screwed up as yours chilly.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

I'd admit to being more sensitive about certain subjects and go from there.

Ask your spouse to please be gentle when talking to you about those subjects. You respect her opinion highly, but it's more difficult to hear she's displeased with you in any way. That's not to say you don't want to hear it, but let her know you want her to please be gentle with you.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

PAC said:


> So you don't think I should share it with her? Why not? I trying to ensure that she knows exactly what I consider intolerable behavior. If I figure out exactly what I want and don't tell her, won't it just be really confusing for her?
> 
> I also am trying to find the line between being respectful / disrespectful. I can identify what is respectful or disrespectful, but don't really have a clue actually stating what it is.. Maybe I shouldn't even worry about defining it.


I don't know why people have such a dislike of writing things down. At least that way you remember all of your points and you also remember what you talked about later on. Okay it seems official. Who cares.

I think you should try to define what you find disrespectful and why. Start out by knowing it felt that way and then search for why.


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## PAC (Sep 20, 2012)

A Bit Much said:


> I'd admit to being more sensitive about certain subjects and go from there.
> 
> Ask your spouse to please be gentle when talking to you about those subjects. You respect her opinion highly, but it's more difficult to hear she's displeased with you in any way. That's not to say you don't want to hear it, but let her know you want her to please be gentle with you.


That's a really good way to think of it, thanks.

Now for the kicker, though. Let's say that I explicitly write out these boundaries, should I also prescribe a way that I should respond?

For example, she often complains about my driving. Although sometimes her complaints are justified, many times I feel that they are not. To highlight the behavior that I don't want, let's say the she decides to essentially throw a temper tantrum in the car. In situations like this, I have almost no clue how to respond. Should I actively prescribe a consequence for her acting out? It feels a little too scientific for my liking, but I want to be able to know how I should / should not respond.


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## PAC (Sep 20, 2012)

tryingtobebetter said:


> Have you explored the five languages of love?


Yes, I've read the book and done the quiz. She hasn't read it but she's done the quiz. Heh, it is kind of hard to get her to read relationship self-help books (kind of annoying).


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

PAC said:


> That's a really good way to think of it, thanks.
> 
> Now for the kicker, though. Let's say that I explicitly write out these boundaries, should I also prescribe a way that I should respond?
> 
> For example, she often complains about my driving. Although sometimes her complaints are justified, many times I feel that they are not. To highlight the behavior that I don't want, let's say the she decides to essentially throw a temper tantrum in the car. In situations like this, I have almost no clue how to respond. Should I actively prescribe a consequence for her acting out? It feels a little too scientific for my liking, but I want to be able to know how I should / should not respond.



Temper tantrums would be ignored. Don't participate in immature games like that. Tell her we can talk about it calmly or not at all.

She can have an opinion, just as you can have an opposing one. No harm no foul there. Not everything needs to be dissected and talked through. You have to learn when those times are. If you know she's not a fan of your driving, then it's to be expected at some point she'll say something you don't want to hear about it. Offer to pull over and let her drive. That would surely throw her off. LOL.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

PAC said:


> To highlight the behavior that I don't want, let's say the she decides to essentially throw a temper tantrum in the car. In situations like this, I have almost no clue how to respond. Should I actively prescribe a consequence for her acting out? It feels a little too scientific for my liking, but I want to be able to know how I should / should not respond.


I would not set a consequence, but I would calmly say that you feel you are a safe driver, and her anger is not justified. The key is to stay calm, state your feelings, and not be drawn into her emotions.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

PAC said:


> That's a really good way to think of it, thanks.
> 
> Now for the kicker, though. Let's say that I explicitly write out these boundaries, should I also prescribe a way that I should respond?
> 
> For example, she often complains about my driving. Although sometimes her complaints are justified, many times I feel that they are not. To highlight the behavior that I don't want, let's say the she decides to essentially throw a temper tantrum in the car. In situations like this, I have almost no clue how to respond. Should I actively prescribe a consequence for her acting out? It feels a little too scientific for my liking, but I want to be able to know how I should / should not respond.


Hopefully I'm wrong here but if little stupid things like how you drive bother her enough to pitch a fit then your days together are numbered. Seems like she's just mad at you and picks little things to vent. I wouldn't deal with it well. I know that because I didn't and I am SO glad that I didn't. Life is too short to be married to a mean woman (or man). It's also too short to be married to a spoiled child.


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## PAC (Sep 20, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> Well one thing you have control of is how you react to being treated poorly. If the way she's treating you is demeaning then you have control to say "alright we are not compatible". And she has to right to agree on that point or change.
> 
> My first wife was disrespectful to me so I project some on this topic. Her lack of respect eventually led to her cheating and me divorcing her. I learned not to settle for someone like that. I think your own self respect is more important than hanging onto someone who doesn't treat you well. Again I project on this topic so the animosity I feel toward your wife should be directed at myself for putting up with crap for a few years. My current wife of 16 years is the epitome of respectful toward me. Maybe it's because that's been one of my deal breakers after I learned better.


Although I agree the respect thing is extremely important, I don't think my situation is all that bad. She is generally respectful of me, but I'm more focusing how she acts when she's extremely upset with me. The car example was dramatized just to get my point across.

Often when she acts out in a way that I completely disapprove of, I am stunned. I know that she has violated what my boundary, but I don't know what to do about it. On one hand I want to push her back, but on the other I don't want to be too forceful in doing so. So often I end up responding in ineffective ways.


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## PAC (Sep 20, 2012)

Just for the record, the car example was just dramatized to get my point across. She doesn't throw an entire temper tantrum when I do something she doesn't like in the car. Although she does go past the point of what I think is acceptable behavior sometimes.


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## PAC (Sep 20, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> Hopefully I'm wrong here but if little stupid things like how you drive bother her enough to pitch a fit then your days together are numbered. Seems like she's just mad at you and picks little things to vent. I wouldn't deal with it well. I know that because I didn't and I am SO glad that I didn't. Life is too short to be married to a mean woman (or man). It's also too short to be married to a spoiled child.


I agree 

She does get on the meaner side on occasion, and that is what I'm trying to fix. The severity of the problem at the moment is not a dealbreaker.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

PAC said:


> Just for the record, the car example was just dramatized to get my point across. She doesn't throw an entire temper tantrum when I do something she doesn't like in the car. Although she does go past the point of what I think is acceptable behavior sometimes.


I wouldn't feed it by responding. 

I'm too much of a smartass to allow it to drag on for very long though... I would say "duly noted" and continue doing what I was doing.


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## tryingtobebetter (Aug 6, 2012)

If she threw a tantrum I would say nothing at the time, but tell her the following day that such behaviour is unacceptable.


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## PAC (Sep 20, 2012)

A Bit Much said:


> I wouldn't feed it by responding.
> 
> I'm too much of a smartass to allow it to drag on for very long though... I would say "duly noted" and continue doing what I was doing.


That's been a strategy that has worked for me before. It can go either way, though. She'll either realize that she's upset for no reason and it isn't affecting me or she'll keep going until I am forced to respond.

Ugh, women. I'm just thankful that she's doesn't rate too highly on the scale of insanity.


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## PAC (Sep 20, 2012)

So what do you guys think of me trying to define a consequence for each boundary that has been breached? I'm leaning more towards that side (I wouldn't share these with her) simply because I often don't know how I should react. I usually just end up getting introspective and when I figure out what I should do it is too late.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

Ah but see, you aren't forced to do anything. You choose to respond when you feel she's overreacting or whatever. That's something you have to stop. She can sit there and fuss and fuss until she gets tired of her own voice. Can you do that? I know it's easy to say but harder to do when the #1 button pusher is pushing those buttons. She knows it will produce the result she's looking for... your attention. Negative attention to some people is better than none.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

PAC,
There is no cookie cutter answer to this. That said, examples are helpful. It helps me to think of these situations this way:
- Is the issue REALLY serious. For example, a car comment could be safety related. 
- Is it urgent? Does it have to be addressed immediately? The car issue rises again. 
- Is it a violation of the golden rule? Is the other person treating you in a manner in which you would not treat them (FYI: there can be legitimate exceptions to this - I allow my W some latitude in terms of physical aggression)
- Is it highly subjective, or more fact based?
- Can it be addressed easily as a "forward looking request, instead of a backward looking complaint")

One simple example in a car. Driving someone else is a privilege not a right. If your W says "slow down" because you are at the speed limit plus 10, the question becomes: is she worried about safety or a speeding ticket. If safety, then an aggressive tone might be warranted assuming she doesn't routinely drive the speed limit plus 10. For my W, when she is worried about a ticket her tone is soft "babe I really don't want us to get a ticket today". Or recently she said after we returned to the house "babe, you rolled through almost every stop sign, not the best example to set for the kids, and eventually an almost certain ticket". I agreed and have made a big effort to break that habit. I give her credit, she didn't try to tag it as a safety issue. Because I don't blow through stop signs, but I was not completely stopping. 








PAC said:


> Just for the record, the car example was just dramatized to get my point across. She doesn't throw an entire temper tantrum when I do something she doesn't like in the car. Although she does go past the point of what I think is acceptable behavior sometimes.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

PAC said:


> Often when she acts out in a way that I completely disapprove of, I am stunned. I know that she has violated what my boundary, but I don't know what to do about it. On one hand I want to push her back, but on the other I don't want to be too forceful in doing so. So often I end up responding in ineffective ways.


I have trouble with this too. When she crosses the line I'm trying to say "Conversation over until you stop, we will talk about when you're able to". It works 50% of the time.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Humor is your friend in completely disarming 'jabs'.

If she tries to escalate, roll your eyes and hold up your hand. Non-verbal communication is often much more effective than trying to engage an escalated female.

If she continues to escalate, leave without a word.

Behavior is conditioning, plain and simple - and we teach people how to behave with, treat us, and what we find acceptable.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

PAC said:


> So what do you guys think of me trying to define a consequence for each boundary that has been breached? I'm leaning more towards that side (I wouldn't share these with her) simply because I often don't know how I should react. I usually just end up getting introspective and when I figure out what I should do it is too late.


Describe a boundary you have and maybe we can come up with something that can work for you. Each one could result in a different response.... no one size fits all here.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

Have you tried Conrad's approach, "I'm not OK with that"?


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

Deejo said:


> Humor is your friend in completely disarming 'jabs'.
> 
> If she tries to escalate, *roll your eyes and hold up your hand*. Non-verbal communication is often much more effective than trying to engage an escalated female.


:lol: Talk to the hand may get you popped in the head, but it's something you could try.


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## PAC (Sep 20, 2012)

A Bit Much said:


> Ah but see, you aren't forced to do anything. You choose to respond when you feel she's overreacting or whatever. That's something you have to stop. She can sit there and fuss and fuss until she gets tired of her own voice. Can you do that? I know it's easy to say but harder to do when the #1 button pusher is pushing those buttons. She knows it will produce the result she's looking for... your attention. Negative attention to some people is better than none.


I agree with what you're saying. There really aren't times where I'm "forced" into anything. It's something I need to work on - trying to not let her push my buttons. Yes, it is very hard to do. She knows exactly which ones to press when she wants to.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

A Bit Much said:


> :lol: Talk to the hand may get you popped in the head, but it's something you could try.


At that point you go for the spanking. And mean it.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

Stop giving her a payoff, and there will be no need for a consequence.


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## PAC (Sep 20, 2012)

A Bit Much said:


> Describe a boundary you have and maybe we can come up with something that can work for you. Each one could result in a different response.... no one size fits all here.


Boundary: I will not tolerate when she is destructively criticizing or when she is lashing out in anger.

Example: I sometimes yawn in church. I do not put my voice in it when I do, but she has a problem with the volume of my breathing when I'm yawning. When we get home she very dramatically mentions that everyone can hear me yawning and that everyone is thinking of how rude I am. She then tells me I'm disrespectful and rude to everyone. I tell her that nobody is coming close to paying as much attention to what I do than she is. She then says "whatever" and starts getting even more pissed off that I don't agree with her or see that my behavior is a problem.

This is actually something that happened. The thing that was the most upsetting was not that she thought my yawning was too loud, but how she presented it. In something like this I'm never sure what to do. I feel like I could agree to trying to be more conscious of the volume of my yawns, but I also don't want to let that behavior pass.


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## PAC (Sep 20, 2012)

It sounds like many of you are saying that I should respond to her lashing out with indifference. Is indifference really all that effective for negative reinforcement? It seems to me that if I just ignore her in these situations she still feels satisfied that she has said her piece.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

PAC,

In my house, we don't allow angry words. Both my wife and myself agree that we shouldn't use angry words. The consequence is that the other person "calls you out" for the use of angry words. Since we have already agreed on the mutual boundary and consequence, there is no escalation. The same goes for sarcasm


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

PAC said:


> Boundary: I will not tolerate when she is destructively criticizing or when she is lashing out in anger.
> 
> Example: I sometimes yawn in church. I do not put my voice in it when I do, but she has a problem with the volume of my breathing when I'm yawning. When we get home she very dramatically mentions that everyone can hear me yawning and that everyone is thinking of how rude I am. She then tells me I'm disrespectful and rude to everyone. I tell her that nobody is coming close to paying as much attention to what I do than she is. She then says "whatever" and starts getting even more pissed off that I don't agree with her or see that my behavior is a problem.
> 
> This is actually something that happened. The thing that was the most upsetting was not that she thought my yawning was too loud, but how she presented it. In something like this I'm never sure what to do. I feel like I could agree to trying to be more conscious of the volume of my yawns, but I also don't want to let that behavior pass.


In this instance you could affirm her concern and say something like... I'll work on that for next time, rather than oppose her altogether. If she escalates with more melodrama, then you could nod your head several times and say you hear what she's saying. Then say it again. I'll work on that for next time. Then walk away or change the subject.

She's not expecting you to agree. She is expecting a rebuttal and more melodramatics from you. She's the boy with the stick against the lions cage. Think of it that way. Provocation produces some results. You can't do much about her poor communication skills.. she could easily say 'honey your yawning in church is embarrassing to me' or whatever, but she doesn't communicate that way.


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## COGypsy (Aug 12, 2010)

PAC said:


> It sounds like many of you are saying that I should respond to her lashing out with indifference. Is indifference really all that effective for negative reinforcement? It seems to me that if I just ignore her in these situations she still feels satisfied that she has said her piece.


From your example above and the behaviours you've described throughout, I think your wife has a much bigger stake in being "right" than in "saying her piece".

I'm not getting the impression that she could just tell you your show was untied. I'm guessing you'd hear all about what "everyone" thinks about your ability to dress yourself instead.

If you don't get into the right-wrong tug of war with her, then she has nothing to feed off of to escalate a discussion.


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## PAC (Sep 20, 2012)

A Bit Much said:


> In this instance you could affirm her concern and say something like... I'll work on that for next time, rather than oppose her altogether. If she escalates with more melodrama, then you could nod your head several times and say you hear what she's saying. Then say it again. I'll work on that for next time. Then walk away or change the subject.
> 
> She's not expecting you to agree. She is expecting a rebuttal and more melodramatics from you. She's the boy with the stick against the lions cage. Think of it that way. Provocation produces some results. You can't do much about her poor communication skills.. she could easily say 'honey your yawning in church is embarrassing to me' or whatever, but she doesn't communicate that way.


My only question is, if I do exactly what you say, what is her incentive to _not_ lash out in anger? Her lashing out probably feels good to her, what is telling her that she shouldn't?


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

PAC said:


> It sounds like many of you are saying that I should respond to her lashing out with indifference. Is indifference really all that effective for negative reinforcement? *It seems to me that if I just ignore her in these situations she still feels satisfied that she has said her piece*.


And why does this bother you?

It shouldn't bother you and you shouldn't feel like she's winning anything. You can be right or you can be happy, that is all up to you. 

Not feeding her drama isn't indifference. It's really self preservation. It's dismanteling her attack without a counterattack. Silence really does go a long way. And if you know and feel strongly that she's making mountains out of molehills, I see no reason to feed it. In the end it only upsets YOU which is what the purpose was to begin with.


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## PAC (Sep 20, 2012)

COGypsy said:


> From your example above and the behaviours you've described throughout, I think your wife has a much bigger stake in being "right" than in "saying her piece".
> 
> I'm not getting the impression that she could just tell you your show was untied. I'm guessing you'd hear all about what "everyone" thinks about your ability to dress yourself instead.
> 
> If you don't get into the right-wrong tug of war with her, then she has nothing to feed off of to escalate a discussion.


When I agree with her, her anger definitely turns down. However the problem is when I disagree with her. In the example above, say that I was in complete disagreement with her. What would be the best way of stating just that without escalating the situation?


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

PAC said:


> My only question is, if I do exactly what you say, what is her incentive to _not_ lash out in anger? Her lashing out probably feels good to her, what is telling her that she shouldn't?


She can express her anger the way she feels she needs to. You have no control over that. You can only control yourself.

She will not always agree with what you do or say, and that's a fact. If she feels good going off on tangents then great! You can choose not to participate in it with her. Button pushing works because there is a response. As Deejo said earlier, you teach people how to treat you. If you shut down rather than counter, she'll be doing the tazmanian devil all by herself. Maybe after a couple of times she'll realize she's being foolish and melodramatic, and she'll stop on her own.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

PAC said:


> Her lashing out probably feels good to her, what is telling her that she shouldn't?


No doubt, her anger feels good as relief from some internal torment and her relief is eventually followed by guilt. She probably has a moral calculus that tells her angry speech is wrong because it is hurtful and you can't make yourself feel better by hurting someone. But her angry outbursts may be impulsive and outside of her conscious control. The strategy here is to bring her action into conscious control where she can limit/eliminate it herself


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## PAC (Sep 20, 2012)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> No doubt, her anger is relief and her relief is eventually followed by guilt. She has to have a moral calculus that tells her angry speech is wrong because it is hurtful and you can't make yourself feel better by hurting someone. But she probably knows that and her anger is impulsive and she lacks self control. The strategy here is to bring her action into conscious control where she can limit/eliminate it herself


You have hit the nail on the head. She does act out and then is guilty and apologetic later. That doesn't necessarily mean that she improves upon not lashing out, though. It seems to me that she knows that there is a problem with it, but is too complacent to actually put an effort in to fixing it.

What I'm trying to do is devise a way to discourage this behavior with something that I do. I believe that I have been accidentally encouraging this behavior, and now I want to reverse that encouragement. I need to find a way to have an incentive for her to not lash out. Now I'm just not entirely clear on what that incentive is.


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## COGypsy (Aug 12, 2010)

PAC said:


> When I agree with her, her anger definitely turns down. However the problem is when I disagree with her. In the example above, say that I was in complete disagreement with her. What would be the best way of stating just that without escalating the situation?


What is there to disagree with? That the shoe is untied? That seems as though it would be fairly apparent who was right on that front. 

So then is the fight going to be about whether "everyone" noticed your shoe? Who "everyone" is? Whether shoe-tying is an integral part of being able to claim that a person can dress themselves? The percentage of successful shoe-ties that constitutes basic shoe-tie competence?

Which of those exactly is a hill worth dying on to prove your disagreement?


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## tryingtobebetter (Aug 6, 2012)

I would tell her that if she wants you to listen to her properly she is much more likely to achieve that by not lashing out. Lashing out just puts your back up.


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

You could say that you want the criticism to focus on the behavior and not make personal attacks. Also, using "I" messages is healthy.

My husband is a math genius who has some serious deficits with social interactions and common sense. I try to remind him that I admire how intellgent he is. I make sure my husband knows how much a silly choice disappoints me because I expect more from him as the older and more educated spouse.


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## PAC (Sep 20, 2012)

COGypsy said:


> What is there to disagree with? That the shoe is untied? That seems as though it would be fairly apparent who was right on that front.
> 
> So then is the fight going to be about whether "everyone" noticed your shoe? Who "everyone" is? Whether shoe-tying is an integral part of being able to claim that a person can dress themselves? The percentage of successful shoe-ties that constitutes basic shoe-tie competence?
> 
> Which of those exactly is a hill worth dying on to prove your disagreement?


What if the answer isn't obvious? Yes, it is easy to see when the shoe should be tied. What of things where I have to stand up for what I believe in?

Again, this example isn't true. This is just a way of making a point.

Let's say that I don't want to go to church and she wants me to. She gets very upset and lashes out angrily that I refuse to go to church. I don't believe in God and refuse to be part of an organization that I think is giving out false answers. This is a "hill worth dying over". How can I stand up for myself without escalating the situation?

--Edit--

Alright, too dramatic of an example.

How about this: I tend to roll up my sleeves on my button-up shirts. She thinks I shouldn't and is upset that I refuse to agree with her or leave them unrolled. How do I say that I disagree with her and are going to continue doing what I want without escalating things?

--Double Edit--

Disregard this. I think this is going too off-topic.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

PAC said:


> You have hit the nail on the head. She does act out and then is guilty and apologetic later. That doesn't necessarily mean that she improves upon not lashing out, though. It seems to me that she knows that there is a problem with it, but is too complacent to actually put an effort in to fixing it.
> 
> What I'm trying to do is devise a way to discourage this behavior with something that I do. I believe that I have been accidentally encouraging this behavior, and now I want to reverse that encouragement. I need to find a way to have an incentive for her to not lash out. Now I'm just not entirely clear on what that incentive is.


I don't think one "encourages" this type of behavior. But you do have a responsibility to confront her with what she has done. You are not in the incentive business. If you continue to bring her behavior to her attention and she is still unable to quit, suggest that you go to counseling together or at least offer to drive her over. Insist that we develop an agreed upon program that leads to cessation, set goals and monitor them


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

> How about this: I tend to roll up my sleeves on my button-up shirts. She thinks I shouldn't and is upset that I refuse to agree with her or leave them unrolled. How do I say that I disagree with her and are going to continue doing what I want without escalating things?


How about not saying anything? Just doing it? She'll definitely get that message. 

Or, if you must.. "I like my shirts this way. I'm sorry you don't agree."

Either you give her all the control she's seeking or you maintain some of it yourself. Up to you.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

Just tell her that all future criticisms & complaints will need to be done in her "outside voice" or you will not listen & respond to them.

When she starts ranting & raving, simply walk away saying nothing.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

How about humor (again these things do work)

"All complaints need to be submitted in writing. They will be addressed by the order in which they're received. Thanks!"


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## PAC (Sep 20, 2012)

Alright, so this is what I've gotten thus far:

Boundary: I will not tolerate hurtful or disrespectful criticism. 

Response: If criticism devolves into being destructive, I will walk away and generally disregard anything said in anger. I will resume the conversation later when we have both cooled down.


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## PAC (Sep 20, 2012)

A Bit Much said:


> How about humor (again these things do work)
> 
> "All complaints need to be submitted in writing. They will be addressed by the order in which they're received. Thanks!"


Haha, that's good - I might try that.


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## PAC (Sep 20, 2012)

Thanks everyone for your input.

I've decided that I will write out my boundaries and show them to my wife. I will also write out my responses for organizational purposes but not show them to her. I'll try to disarm any tense situations with humor first, but will respond with what I've written out if needed.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Deejo said:


> Humor is your friend in completely disarming 'jabs'.
> 
> If she tries to escalate, roll your eyes and hold up your hand. Non-verbal communication is often much more effective than trying to engage an escalated female.
> 
> ...


If humor is your friend then having respect for one another is your best friend. I think a disrespectful spouse is just not marriage material so OP you have your work cut out for you. Deejo's recommendations are great for minimizing your problem. It's unfortunate that learning how to deal with a disrespectful spouse is ever needed.


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## funnybunny1972 (Sep 20, 2012)

tryingtobebetter said:


> I would tell her that if she wants you to listen to her properly she is much more likely to achieve that by not lashing out. Lashing out just puts your back up.


I'm certainly far from an expert and am working on boundaries myself, but this is what I plan to try. Over and over until it sinks in. Thanks for the idea!


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## funnybunny1972 (Sep 20, 2012)

I don't remember who suggested it, but I find eye rolling to be very disrespectful. It's bad from a teenager and is a pet peve of mine. I would be very upset if my husband reacted that way. I would not find that funny at all.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

A Bit Much said:


> Stop giving her a payoff, and there will be no need for a consequence.


I don't get the logic of allowing someone to disrespect us. I think we all deserve and we all have to police how we allow others to treat us. 

The natural progression if not held in check is she'll start belittling you in front of other people or your children. I just think this is not a small problem. It's huge. Imagine you have kids and they learn to do the same or to be done the same way. There are all kinds of reasons to not settle.

Maybe my picture of what's going on is just so far from reality that my observations don't apply. If the scenarios in my head match what's going on then it has to get better.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

PAC said:


> My only question is, if I do exactly what you say, what is her incentive to _not_ lash out in anger? Her lashing out probably feels good to her, what is telling her that she shouldn't?


Actually her lashing out and you not doing something about it likely diminishes what ever respect she has for you. Not taking up for your self and is the first step toward doormat status.


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

i just ask my wife to do things, and not to do other things.
if she does or does not do something correctly i call her on it.
She pretty much does as i tell her.
If she fails to do something i will correct her behavior accordingly.
If she starts to talk back i correct her behavior accordingly. she seems happiest when i keep her on track. In the meantime i have to go out and look at the cars. My daughter just came in the house and told me my wife just backed the car into my truck.
lol


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## PAC (Sep 20, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> Actually her lashing out and you not doing something about it likely diminishes what ever respect she has for you. Not taking up for your self and is the first step toward doormat status.


Then if you were in a situation similar to what I gave examples for, how would you go about standing up for yourself?


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

"That's a crappy way to talk to me. I'll talk to you later when you are speaking civilly." 

"Thanks for the fashion input, but I'm a big boy and I know what I like." 

In the car.... hum the Speed Racer theme song. (Works for us!) 

Soooo.... mostly, I suggest "Thanks, I got this." Period. Not up for discussion. If she rants or berates you, crosses the boundary, you can tell her "This is an unacceptable way to talk to me." Period, and leave the room.... or if stuck in the car just leave the conversation.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

PAC said:


> I have failed to establish boundaries with my wife. I'm currently trying to explicitly write out exactly what my boundaries are. I plan to eventually share these with my wife so that we are completely on the same page.
> 
> Anyway, I'm trying to write out exactly what I expect with her during criticism, but I'm not exactly sure what I'm looking for.
> 
> ...


1. Criticism is NEVER helpful for a marriage. 
2. "I feel" statements do not work for most people. They're just a bad costume for criticism, and most people are smart enough to recognize this.

John Gottman's books on marriage are *wonderful* resources for what you're trying to do. I encourage you read the excerpt from Ten Principles for Making Marriage Work on this page - especially the part about criticism and complaints.

A complaint is about something that happens. A criticism is about who someone is or how they do things. 

It sounds like you are heading for trouble with the approach you're taking, so I hope you'll give it a bit more time and research how you can meet your needs and communicate with her in a way that is not critical, that doesn't expect her to change, and that puts your marriage quality above your own happiness for now. This is the only way your relationship will improve instead of adding more problems.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

PAC said:


> That's a really good way to think of it, thanks.
> 
> Now for the kicker, though. Let's say that I explicitly write out these boundaries, should I also prescribe a way that I should respond?
> 
> For example, she often complains about my driving. Although sometimes her complaints are justified, many times I feel that they are not. To highlight the behavior that I don't want, let's say the she decides to essentially throw a temper tantrum in the car. In situations like this, I have almost no clue how to respond. Should I actively prescribe a consequence for her acting out? It feels a little too scientific for my liking, but I want to be able to know how I should / should not respond.


^This is a great example to use for what I said above.

You hear her complain, and maybe she escalates it. I don't know if she's calling you names, trying to be bossy, or whatever. If she says, "Pac, I'm afraid because of the speed you're going... will you slow down?" that's a complaint, and you can act on it or not.

If she says, "Pac, you're a reckless driver," that is criticism. 

So let's say she is throwing a temper tantrum. She's trying to force you to do things her way, or she is criticizing you. Control/criticism are both damaging. How can you respond in a healthy way that sets your boundaries? 

1. You could give up control yourself. Pull over and let her drive. Do this in a cooperative manner, not a sulky one. This conveys that you recognize her viewpoint as a valid one, but not one that you'll adopt. 

2. You could pull over and tell her you're calling a friend or a cab to drive you home because you do not tolerate criticism. 

3. You can pull over, take the keys, and let her know you'll return after you walk around the block to calm down. (If she follows you and continues her tantrum, return to your car and tell her you'll return in five minutes after you calm down.) If this still doesn't work, resort to #2. 

4. You can pull over, tell her to voice everything she has to say, and when she exhausts herself, ask if she's finished. Once she says yes, you can acknowledge that you'll give thought to what she said and will discuss it when you are home. 

5. You can pull over and say calmly, "I'll wait until we can cooperate with each other, but I won't try to discuss anything when blaming is part of the conversation."

If you refuse to engage in control tactics AND you show that they simply do not work with you, she'll have more reason to behave cooperatively. You can be firm, fair, and loving when you do these things. 

If you make a list saying "I'm tired of your temper tantrums," then you have blamed and criticized her. Her ONLY possible response is defensiveness. The boundaries you described are great for YOU, but showing them to her only comes off as controlling. You can post them on your bedroom wall, but just say they are what YOU are doing for yourself.


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> Sounds like a joke comment but I'm not sure if you're joking. OP, this is how your wife thinks about you  accept she's pissed because she can't "correct your behavior" very easily when yo argue.
> 
> geez, from one extreme to the next.


nope. im not joking.
i have a real low tolerance and i will correct my wifes behavior and she knows it. And if she raises her voice, swears, i make her apologize. She is actually pretty careful with this as i mentioned once i would put soap in her mouth and i probably would if it was really poor language. She isnt allowed to argue. She can give her opinion if she wants. But she isnt allowed to argue. And if she is giving her opinion she needs to have a valid one. I have no qualms about making my wife stand in the corner or putting my wife over my knee and spanking her on the ass like a child if she chooses to act like one. Doesnt phase me in the least. But if she is good, she gets flowers, dinner, a gift, some extra attention.....
She ended up with dinner and flowers last week.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

bribrius said:


> nope. im not joking.
> i have a real low tolerance and i will correct my wifes behavior and she knows it. And if she raises her voice, swears, i make her apologize. She is actually pretty careful with this as i mentioned once i would put soap in her mouth and i probably would if it was really poor language. She isnt allowed to argue. She can give her opinion if she wants. But she isnt allowed to argue. And if she is giving her opinion she needs to have a valid one. I have no qualms about making my wife stand in the corner or putting my wife over my knee and spanking her on the ass like a child if she chooses to act like one. Doesnt phase me in the least. But if she is good, she gets flowers, dinner, a gift, some extra attention.....
> She ended up with dinner and flowers last week.


I’m not sure what’s most disturbing about your post. It’s content or the fact you posted it.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

PAC said:


> I have failed to establish boundaries with my wife. I'm currently trying to explicitly write out exactly what my boundaries are. I plan to eventually share these with my wife so that we are completely on the same page.
> 
> Anyway, I'm trying to write out exactly what I expect with her during criticism, but I'm not exactly sure what I'm looking for.
> 
> ...


I have not read any of these responses so far. 

Great Boundary book here - I feel these Authors are the Boundary masters.... 








Boundaries in Marriage: Henry Cloud,John Townsend: Books









I am the type.... I want *HONESTY*...even if it hurts me, I still want it - if there is some way to bring lasting peace between 2 people in a relationship... it starts by communicating our needs, desires...and our hurts....

If someone (my husband, a friend, family member) doesn't like something I've done & or something I've said...if it is eating them up inside.... I *WANT* them to come to me & talk about it. I do not JUMP & get all irate when another does this.... I even thank them. 

It DOES matter, however, how one chooses to bring their hurt and/or irritation across to us...this almost always has some baring on how we respond - jumping to defend ourselves (feeling attacked) or we feel their







in just trying to open a dialog about something they feel is important to "the marriage" or relationship. 

Even if someone is snappy (give them a little grace)...it is good to TRY to look at our own hand - if we caused any hurt or anger in this person...Our *attitude *alone can turn this around & calm them.











Be careful to speak with a spirit of humbleness, not like we have halos & they are the evil wrongdoers....but we, too, have flaws & miss it sometimes IF we can CONVEY this...as we bring up the "contention" between us... this goes a hell of a way...in bringing a resolve and a workable spirit between 2 people. 

*Listening deeply* to what another has to say, not interrupting them...pausing before we reply.. HUGE...When others feel HEARD...and understood....... they are generally more willing to RECEIVE what we are saying... This article much explains the dynamic that KILLS so much communication...

COMMUNICATION: “YOU” V/S “I” STATEMENTS

A peice of the article here >>


> *'I’ Statements have Multiple Benefits*
> 
> - ‘I’ statements make the speaker take responsibility for his emotions, acknowledging and understanding them better. Also, we can really know only what WE are feeling. When we talk about anyone else’s feelings, thoughts or behaviors like ‘you don’t love me’ or ‘you don’t understand’ – it’s all just an assumption. That is our perspective of the situation while that person’s reality may be completely different. So let’s not assume here, let only talk of only what we really know – our own selves.
> 
> ...


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## PAC (Sep 20, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> The next time she does something out of control and belittling to you, I would ask her to leave and if she just won't then I would leave. Now this will either fix things because she gains respect for you and still loves you thus you come back to a better situation OR it will expedite your split because her nastiness is a symptom of her wanting out subconsciously.


How is leaving or asking her to leave different from what other people were saying? They both seem really similar to me.

I don't think she wants subconsciously out. If I did, I wouldn't bother with trying to make our marriage better. She's a great wife, but lets her emotions run away with her sometimes. I've not done a great job of communicating that she needs to get that under control, so I'll take part of the blame.

That being said, I'm not worried about her leaving me. It would take a lot more than this to break us. That's why I'm comfortable in figuring out a way to stand up for myself in these situations. So for now I play the waiting game and see if it happens again.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Temperament has a tremendous amount to do with how you would choose, or even how you are capable of handling any kind of conflict; with your spouse or otherwise.

Here is what I can tell you unequivocally; you need to be comfortable with being uncomfortable.

Everyone is different. Hence the array of responses you will get. For instance, I cannot conceivably imagine writing down my boundaries and how I will respond, and handing them to my partner.
In my opinion, it seems quite counter-productive. To me, it seems ... weak. It's like a written request of 'please don't make me do this ...'. In and of itself, it seems conflict avoidant.

I'm certainly not trying to belittle you, or tell you that you are wrong. If you think this method will work, then go for it. But ... be advised, you are effectively handing her a roadmap of how to tick you off and get away with it. I cannot help but see that if she already enjoys pushing your buttons, you have just handed her more ammunition.

Your boundaries are yours. How do people learn what your boundaries are? They see your response when they or someone else crosses them.

I will also tell you that I am about results ... not always what is appropriate.

Based upon what you have indicated thus far, I'm not prepared to say that your wife has no respect for you, although it does seem clear that you 'hope' for respect, rather than 'enforcing' respect.
If that description makes you uncomfortable, then you have a long way to go, and you will need to decide if you are prepared to quite possibly jeopardize your marriage, in order to achieve the marriage you want.

She's going to fight you. People seldom welcome a change in a dynamic that they have grown used to, even a dysfunctional one. You need to be prepared to fight back.

I am all for firm and calm. That is always the best course. But ... displaying anger has it's place. Doesn't mean pitching a fit like a 3 year old, but once a woman has decided to go the route of 'hissy-fit', she's has passed beyond the threshold of being reasoned with. So ... there is little point in your effort to apply reason to the exchange.

Are you afraid of her? Afraid of upsetting her, afraid of her reactions or response, afraid that she will avoid you, or withhold attention, affection, etc. ?

You can check out the threads listed in the sticky in the Clubhouse pertaining to http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18347-fitness-tests.html.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

PAC said:


> She's a great wife, but lets her emotions run away with her sometimes. I've not done a great job of communicating that she needs to get that under control, so I'll take part of the blame.
> 
> I'm comfortable in figuring out a way to stand up for myself in these situations. So for now I play the waiting game and see if it happens again.


PAC,

I think this is an excellent assessment of your situation. Letting one's emotions run out of control is a maturity issue. The best thing you can do is to give her all the support she needs while insisting that we take action and make observable progress


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

If you haven't read it, you might look into the book Love Busters by Bill Harley. It it, he explains that the trick to making adjustments in a marriage to accomodate one another is for the couple to learn to make honest complaints without engaging in demands, disrespectful judgements, or angry outbursts. It's a good book to read together as a couple, if possible.

Slow down right now! - demand
You always drive like a teenageer! - disrespectful judgement
For God's sake, why can't you ever just slow down!?!? I can't believe I ever let you drive! and on and on - angry outburst

Honey, it frightens me when you drive over the speed limit and follow the car ahead of you so closely. I'm afraid if they stop suddenly, we won't have enough time at this speed to avoid hitting them. - A valid complaint, phrased in a way that doesn't disrespect you, isn't a demand, and doesn't come across as angry. It's a complaint, not a _criticism_.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

AFEH said:


> I’m not sure what’s most disturbing about your post. It’s content or the fact you posted it.


I would not be at all surprised if Bribrius goes to sleep one night and doesn't wake up because she decided to put a stop to the way he treats her, but I've learned to shrug off his statements as delusional.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

PAC said:


> How is leaving or asking her to leave different from what other people were saying? They both seem really similar to me.
> 
> I don't think she wants subconsciously out. If I did, I wouldn't bother with trying to make our marriage better. She's a great wife, but lets her emotions run away with her sometimes. I've not done a great job of communicating that she needs to get that under control, so I'll take part of the blame.
> 
> That being said, I'm not worried about her leaving me. It would take a lot more than this to break us. That's why I'm comfortable in figuring out a way to stand up for myself in these situations. So for now I play the waiting game and see if it happens again.


I guess it depends on who you're referring to with "other people". I haven't seen too many comments suggesting you bump this up to "deal breaker" status but hope for R. Seems like it's been either/or. I think it should be a deal breaker just like infidelity, domestic violence, drug abuse, etc would be for most. That's basically what I'm saying is that her treating you with disrespect should have an immediate harsh reactions like a couple of week separation. And of course you have to treat her with respect as well. 
I'm saying you should not learn to deal with being treated poorly and you should not fight fire with fire by being disrespectful back.

And I think being very firm ( make it a deal breaker) gives her something to respect you for and reason to evaluate how to avoid doing something that you say she feels guilty about later.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> COMMUNICATION: “YOU” V/S “I” STATEMENTS
> 
> A piece of the article here >>
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

I believe that about 99% of people do more damage to their relationships by trying to use "I statements," although I agree with everything in this quotation. 

I like that you highlighted this part, SimplyAmorous, because it hones in on the reason I say they don't work. People try to use them but falling into the "I feel like" stuff is a very natural subconscious tendency. Worse, when people do this, then they can start arguing about who's using I statements improperly! 

As soon as the word "like" enters the picture, people are stating thoughts. "I feel like" is never followed by an emotion word - happy, sad, guilty, pressured, angry, overwhelmed - but instead it's followed by a summary of the speaker's perception.

After spending years using and teaching the concepts, I gave up because it's so unlikely to succeed when emotions are high. Instead, I encourage people (and take my own advice) to spend enough time to find a solution for their own problem that doesn't require their partner to be part of the solution. Only then should they try to solve complex problems. This lets them talk about it as if it's over and done, which takes the strain off the partner and lets their partner learn them and how they relate to the world better. A loving partner will be responsive, and a selfish one will make empty promises, but by not using blame in any way, it promotes cooperation so much better.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Destructive criticism: "Holy crap! You're an idiot for doing it that way. Do I have to do everything around here? damn..."

Constructive criticism: "Nice work, bebe!! Maybe next time, so save some time for yourself, try it this way? Or not. Just a suggestion. " Or something. lol.

But, no criticizing here in this house. That left during our separation. Now, if crap gets done, we don't care how it gets done.


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## PAC (Sep 20, 2012)

Deejo said:


> Temperament has a tremendous amount to do with how you would choose, or even how you are capable of handling any kind of conflict; with your spouse or otherwise.
> 
> Here is what I can tell you unequivocally; you need to be comfortable with being uncomfortable.
> 
> ...


I can see what you're saying, and now again I don't know if I should show her the list of my boundaries or not.

I have trouble thinking about very subjective things. My initial aim was to concretely define what my boundaries were and what actions I should take to enforce them. I want to do this mainly for organizational purposes, since it is 10x easier for me to process objective written out concepts. If I do decide to share this list with my wife, I will only show her the list of boundaries while I keep the consequences to myself. I can see how this can come off as weak, but I think that risk is worth me being able to tune this into my strengths.

I can say that I am guilty of hoping for respect rather than demanding it. I came into my marriage moderately inexperienced in relationships. I think I had the assumption that I wouldn't need to enforce rules to retain respect. Well now our Utopia has crashed down, and I am working to ensure that our small problems now do not grow into large problems further down the road.

A large part of my problem is that I don't really know how to deal with anger. What happens in these situations is that she angers me by crossing my boundary, and then I don't know how to respond. I want to push her back, but I don't know how much force is too much or too little. Since I don't want to nuke her the first time I let it out, I am trying to define what is acceptable and not acceptable for me to do. I think that if I have mentally prepared for what I'm going to do, I won't get stuck in analysis paralysis, and therefore be able to act when the time comes.

I don't think my wife has no respect for me normally, I just think that it severely diminishes when she is very angry with me. She also has problems in how to deal with anger, and I haven't done my job in showing her what is okay to do with me.

Am I afraid of her? I certainly do not enjoy angering her, but I am willing to do that for a happy marriage. I am willing to "jeopardize" my marriage for this; although, I truly believe that it won't push us to the breaking point. In posting these questions people describe their problems out in detail. I think this tends to make people focus on it a little too much and think the problem is worse than it is. I will not fall in to that trap. Although I do not like the prospect of stressing our marriage, I know without a doubt that changing our dynamic will not break us, and am thus not frightened away from doing what must be done.

Thank you for your though-provoking post. You didn't offend or belittle me in any way.


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## PAC (Sep 20, 2012)

By the way, I thought that I would mention that using humor works pretty damn well. It sounded much harder than it actually was.


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## PAC (Sep 20, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> I guess it depends on who you're referring to with "other people". I haven't seen too many comments suggesting you bump this up to "deal breaker" status but hope for R. Seems like it's been either/or. I think it should be a deal breaker just like infidelity, domestic violence, drug abuse, etc would be for most. That's basically what I'm saying is that her treating you with disrespect should have an immediate harsh reactions like a couple of week separation. And of course you have to treat her with respect as well.
> I'm saying you should not learn to deal with being treated poorly and you should not fight fire with fire by being disrespectful back.
> 
> And I think being very firm ( make it a deal breaker) gives her something to respect you for and reason to evaluate how to avoid doing something that you say she feels guilty about later.


I understand what you're saying. If I made it a deal breaker, though, I would feel like I emotionally bullied her in to doing what I want. I don't want her to act respectful because she is terrified of me leaving her - I want her to be respectful towards me because she loves me and actually does respect me even while angry. I think I can accomplish this while using a small but well-placed amount of force.

I just don't think I can morally justify the overwhelming-force approach to this problem. I respect your opinion and believe that this approach would definitely fix the problem, but I am afraid it would just create more problems in its wake.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

PAC said:


> A large part of my problem is that I don't really know how to deal with anger. What happens in these situations is that she angers me by crossing my boundary, and then I don't know how to respond. I want to push her back, but I don't know how much force is too much or too little. Since I don't want to nuke her the first time I let it out, I am trying to define what is acceptable and not acceptable for me to do. I think that if I have mentally prepared for what I'm going to do, I won't get stuck in analysis paralysis, and therefore be able to act when the time comes.


PAC,

Read this over and see if it gives you some ideas:

Get Your ANGRIES Out

I can tell you straight up, female anger is a nonstarter in the world at large and you're not going to find much info about it. I wouldn't give my wife a written list unless it was a list of her good points


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## PAC (Sep 20, 2012)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> PAC,
> 
> Read this over and see if it gives you some ideas:
> 
> ...


I have to admit, the childlike theme put me off for a bit. Good stuff, though. Thanks. 

What do you mean by "female anger is a nonstarter..."?


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

PAC said:


> I understand what you're saying. If I made it a deal breaker, though, I would feel like I emotionally bullied her in to doing what I want. I don't want her to act respectful because she is terrified of me leaving her - I want her to be respectful towards me because she loves me and actually does respect me even while angry. I think I can accomplish this while using a small but well-placed amount of force.
> 
> I just don't think I can morally justify the overwhelming-force approach to this problem. I respect your opinion and believe that this approach would definitely fix the problem, but I am afraid it would just create more problems in its wake.


simple.
i say "sweetie you need to check yourself" and kind of carry on with whatever im doing.


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## TheCrunch (Sep 3, 2012)

Whilst it's important to make boundaries known and be sure what the consequences are if boundaries are crossed, it's important to make sure you are not controlling of your spouse when carrying out consequences. e.g. if spouse crosses the line you do x, but don't try and insist your spouse do "y". It's counter productive in my experience.

Also on the smaller issues, agreeing to differ without resentment is easier said than done but *essential*. (By smaller issues, I mean the ones that you won't remember why you were arguing a few weeks later.) Picking your battles smoothes the way for standing firm and keeping your boundaries on the issues that actually do matter. 

How to Argue Effectively - the "DO" list


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

PAC said:


> I understand what you're saying. If I made it a deal breaker, though, I would feel like I emotionally bullied her in to doing what I want. I don't want her to act respectful because she is terrified of me leaving her - I want her to be respectful towards me because she loves me and actually does respect me even while angry. I think I can accomplish this while using a small but well-placed amount of force.
> 
> I just don't think I can morally justify the overwhelming-force approach to this problem. I respect your opinion and believe that this approach would definitely fix the problem, but I am afraid it would just create more problems in its wake.


I suppose well-placed defense is optimal to shock and awe if you determine where to place it correctly . I'll be curiously watching this thread.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

The only boundary we really have is no casual friendships with the opposite sex. This was discussed within the first month or so of our marriage and its worked well.

My husband and I don't have any other "rules" per say. We have self discipline and would never intentionally displease on another.

My husband and I do not criticize each other. We are really supportive with each other. We don't let the small things bother us. We have fabulous communication with each other and any issues are brought up immediately, but in a gentle way. We hold nothing back, nor hold any resentments. 

It's impossible to have good days everyday. We know each very well and we recognize each others cues when one of us is in a bad mood. We will leave each other alone to ourselves for a day or two, but this does not happen often. We both work very hard in pleasing one another always. We have always put our marriage as our number one priority.

I'm sure neither of us would really like to be criticized by each other. I was criticized all my life by my parents. I certainly would not like it by my husband.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

PAC said:


> What do you mean by "female anger is a nonstarter..."?


PAC,

What I mean is that female anger is just not a priority in any of the various communities that study and attempt to improve social and behavioral conditions in our greater society.

Male anger is a big societal problem. Women are hurt, women are killed, lives are destroyed and great harm is done. Male anger has been highly researched and highly publicized. There are many dedicated and zealous persons working in this area. We have institutionalized programs to deal with it.

Female anger, on the other hand, is a big yawn. Men are not getting beat up or killed in great number at the hands of women. Men don't usually fall into poverty and require government assistance when they leave their angry wives. Google the subject and you will see more justifications than anything else.

Men and women are different, I don't think anyone will dispute that. Men and women process anger differently. I assure you that 100% of the publicly available advice you get for dealing with anger in your marriage will be targeted to women dealing with men. Even if they say "well this could work for men dealing with women", well that's not exactly true and no one calls them on it because no one is interested. The assumption is that if you're a man and your wife has an anger problem, you can just find someone else and leave. If not, you get what you get.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

PAC said:


> A large part of my problem is that I don't really know how to deal with anger. What happens in these situations is that she angers me by crossing my boundary, and then I don't know how to respond. I want to push her back, but I don't know how much force is too much or too little. Since I don't want to nuke her the first time I let it out, I am trying to define what is acceptable and not acceptable for me to do. I think that if I have mentally prepared for what I'm going to do, I won't get stuck in analysis paralysis, and therefore be able to act when the time comes.


Welcome to the brotherhood of young men! Many of us were in your situation.


Do you know it takes less than 0.1 seconds to go from calm to angry? If you didn’t know then read http://www.amazon.co.uk/Emotional-I...8306/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1348670990&sr=8-1 and learn to become intelligent about your emotions.


Basically there two strategies to do with anger (1) Don’t get angry in the first place and (2) Never communicate while in the heat of your anger.



But how can you not get angry in the first place? You do this by learning how to detach from your ego (and hence your emotions), to switch out of your Ego Mind Conscience and into your Observer Mind Conscience.

If you feel/think there’s going to be a confrontation, you switch away from your Ego Mind Conscience and into your Observer Mind Conscience and just be an observer of what’s going on. That way you stay away from your ego with all its sensitivities and hence your ego doesn’t get hurt and your emotions don’t rise, you don’t get angry. To learn how to do this read Awareness: Amazon.co.uk: Anthony De Mello: Books.

Another book for you is Hold on to Your Nuts: The Relationship Manual for Men: Amazon.co.uk: Wayne M. Levine: Books. 

A good boundary for you will be “She’s angry. Time to switch into my Observer Mind Conscience and practice what I learnt in Awareness: Amazon.co.uk: Anthony De Mello: Books.




(2) Never communicate while in the heat of your anger.

Boundaries are two way. For sure we have “incoming boundaries” but we also have outgoing boundaries. For example “I will never confront my wife while I am angry. I will walk away and do what it takes to become calm before re-engaging with my wife.”.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

It's exceedingly good that you are learning about and getting yourself some healthy boundaries.

But here's a key one for you "I will never show my wife my boundaries".


Why?

There's a couple of reasons. First off men are to a very large degree defined by their boundaries, for example "I don't steal, I'm not a thief". "I'm always courteous" etc.

Our boundaries are not something to be discussed, they are however things to be enacted. If we talk about our boundaries, then they're in great danger of just becoming promises and nothing else.



Secondly if you give your wife your list of boundaries and she later wants to wound you and therefore get your anger rising (they're very good at it!) she'll have a list of ammo!


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