# Are There Not Enough Eligible Christian Men?



## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

I’d assumed that the problem many secular women face — not enough “eligible” men resulting in women ending up childless — would not extend to the religious. But my wife has a cousin turning 25 who is worried that she’s running out of time. Her sister, who is 28, said “she has the same problem I do - she can’t find someone better than her.”

Are Catholic and evangelical women having trouble finding guys worth marrying? Enduring a long “season of singleness” waiting for God to send them a husband?

* * *

“Yet for someone like me – a 32-year-old single Catholic – the situation looks bleak indeed.

“I can talk to any young woman in my social circle and they will, one and all, say the same thing: there just aren’t any men. What we mean by this is there is a frightening scarcity of men aged 25-35 who are church-going, single and worldly-wise.

“Most men I meet have two out of three of these qualities, with the latter often lacking. If they’re single church-goers, they’re usually awkward and in want of basic social awareness (a big turn-off for most women). If they’re more worldly, they’re generally not single or not religious. Even if they’re not religious, most young Australian men hold views and values that are left of centre and utterly opposed to our own.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.catholicweekly.com.au/for-want-of-a-lot-of-good-men/?amp


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Does that mean women identify as religious (or Catholic in this case) more than men?


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

I can't really see that this is a huge surprise to anyone?

Historically speaking, men were willing to give up their freedom and get married in order to have frequent, convenient access to sex.

Now that women are under the mistaken belief that they can be promiscuous with no consequences (because it's mutual and they aren't hurting anyone ), why would a man want to get married?

And I'm speaking as a Christian. Trust me when I say dating a Christian man is no different.

Also, I think the expectations of a relationship have become ridiculous - unreasonable and unrealistic. Folks want perfection, and anything and everything is a 'red flag', and pretty much every other person is accused of being crazy or narcissistic.

Personal responsiblity is out, and playing the victim is rampant.

It's mind boggling really. I feel so sorry for my children.

Modern societies think they're so enlightened, yet we're destroying relationships - and destroying our planet.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I agree in general that there is a pretty poor selection of men in all walks of life.

I haven't kept up on the church scene in a long time due to travel but it wouldn't surprise me if the genetic pool.is getting pretty putrid.

A lot of religious teaching is poisoning men and women regarding what works for men in terms of attraction and success in mating.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Does that mean women identify as religious (or Catholic in this case) more than men?


I think so. Also, women are more likely to attend church. But I’m not so much talking about a scarcity of single Christian men but a scarcity of ELIGIBLE single Christian men. That is, the ones on the market aren’t worth having because they aren’t worldly wise, awkward, etc.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

CraigBesuden said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> > Does that mean women identify as religious (or Catholic in this case) more than men?
> ...


So, we are assuming the women are all perfect models while the men vary in looks, personality and charima? Not that, say for instance, maybe the women have too high standards.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

How are they defining worldly-wise?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Interesting.

One would think that a woman truly following the tenets of her faith would understand things like being content in her current circumstances, waiting on God's timing, etc.

I didn't exactly take the dating scene by storm first OR second time around, but I managed to find decent Christian men to date. In fact, I didn't even go out with a man who wasn't an active Christian, and I had a social life.

I don't think it's the Christian.part that's making it tough on these women. I think it's unrealistic expectations, a consumer mentality, and a focus on the surface.


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

You can look at society now and see the results of the new American male, and where his masculinity is, just park in front of any store/shoppe. And where the woman is hauling the load kids in tow strollers and hand carrying the car seat all while the husband's go ahead of them empty handed.

Why do they do this I for one believe that they the males don't know or have not been taught how to be a man. It is just as disgusting for me as a male to observe this new world male. Let alone one with any Christian values. 

It a sad new world and l know my grandson being raised as a man/gentleman/ and warrior with Christian ways be sidestepped in his own thinking because he see the bar lowered so low for a man from society he could slip into the easy path of life. Or be ridiculed for having such a belief that this world frowns upon.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

Fozzy said:


> How are they defining worldly-wise?


“If they’re single church-goers, they’re usually awkward and in want of basic social awareness (a big turn-off for most women).“

A cynic would say they lack “game” and/or social experience.

Just a thought: Perhaps it’s not the worldly-wise confidence and social experience that caused those men to become married? 

Maybe when you date the inexperienced young Christian man, and he stops being nervous around you and calms down, and stops being nervous around other women because he’s now off the market and there’s no longer anything at stake when he talks with them, and he gets experience talking to a girl (you), and you help him learn how to dress and act, he becomes better?

In other words, maybe these young ladies are comparing an unfinished product to a finished product?

At the same time, spending all of your time alone playing Xbox One won’t teach you social skills. People spend more and more time alone these days.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

Mandy Hale on why she’s still single at 39:

https://mandyhale.com/2018/11/21/why-im-still-single-the-ugly-truth/


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

We were tired of the Catholic guilt we grew up with and became agnostic.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Interesting topic that would be fun to respond to in a open forum like Politics and Religion, where I wouldn't be banned for answering the question.
But for a tiny hint sticking to relationship advice, carefully examine this part of the original post, "she can’t find someone better than her.”


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Being non-secular, I can attest to the fact that finding a good, stable partner who is a good match to me was incredibly difficult. Before finding my current partner 5 months ago, I did the OLD thing for about a year and a half, and had a really poor 4-month relationship in there as well. It’s a long, hard road with many challenges and rejections. The people on that road need to be fluid, as in: willing to compromise on their list of must-haves in a partner. There are must-haves that are very important: honesty, loyalty, integrity. And, there are things that can give. Example: my XH lived with his Mom, and his Mom did absolutely everything for him to the point where he was pretty clueless about common sense things. I vowed to find someone who had his own home and didn’t live with his parents. My partner is 44, is going through a terrible divorce and lives temporarily with his parents, but he’s actively looking for a home to share with his daughter and dog. When I found him and got to know him, that was something that I easily looked past because he’s so awesome in so many other regards.

So, when you add in something like: he/she needs to be devout in their religion, it makes it even harder to find someone, especially with OLD. Most people in the OLD world are out for a quickie, something fun for now. Not very often will you come across someone serious about finding someone to build a life with. I do understand that for some people, finding someone religious is the most important quality, but I also understand that there are other things that might have to be given up if that is the #1 quality that they look for. I have a co-worker who I didn’t know was so devout until recently. Her and I have been on the dating journey together and have shared stories. This is what she’s looking for in someone: tall but not too tall, has to have a good head of hair and zero facial hair, has to have nice eyes (beady eyes freak her out) and be fairly skinny because she feels that someone larger or with muscles will “break” her, be a gamer but not game too much. All of that is fine if that’s what you want to find, BUT then she mentioned that she’s quite religious and wants to find someone who is that way too, and who will wait months or possibly years (or until marriage) to be intimate. So, you add that in, and suddenly she’s looking for a unicorn on PoF. I mentioned that she might want to try Christian dating sites, but apparently the men there aren’t attractive to her. Unfortunately, she will probably remain single for many years to come because she’s not willing to budge on anything.

If a person is very devout and wants to find someone with similar strong beliefs, I would think that their best bet would be to look within their church, and to get involved with church activities and leadership programs there. Looking within the general public or OLD site probably isn’t the way to go, unless it’s a Christian OLD site.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

I liked that article. Thank you for posting it.

The only thing that's different for me is that I don't find being single hard - not at all.

In fact, my day to day life is incredibly peaceful.

In my head, I think it would be nice to share my life with someone special, and I do continue to pray for it. But each choice has it's good and bad, and the longer I'm single, the more I appreciate my life as it is.



CraigBesuden said:


> Mandy Hale on why she’s still single at 39:
> 
> https://mandyhale.com/2018/11/21/why-im-still-single-the-ugly-truth/


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> I don't think it's the Christian part that's making it tough on these women. I think it's unrealistic expectations, a consumer mentality, and a focus on the surface.


I think there's also an increased focus on the guy as investment. It's always been there, but investment-grade for the current economy, at least in the US, is a completely different thing than it used to be. Blue collar is pretty much out the window in successful urban areas; you can't make enough money to get by. And when push comes to shove, women are passing up really great guys who aren't on their list because they don't see the financial future they'd like. In the SF Bay Area, you have to be in high-tech to afford single-bedroom apartments at $4k/month. That's just nuts. 

I don't have an answer for this. It's hitting my son really hard.


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## cashcratebob (Jan 10, 2018)

Maybe it has something to do with the push for marriage within christian churches? Can't have sex until married, so get married. That's a big generalization, but it isn't a generalization to say a lot of discussion regarding marriage takes place within the church at a young age. 

So maybe the good men are getting snatched up quickly, because women in the church are being told to get married early. 

This really is my inclination. And I would support the OPs assertion that all that is left i the super awkward dudes at that age (because good mate standards are still pretty universal). Church produces a kind of reverse rise to the top environment. Likely on both sides, but very apparent from my perspective, on the male side.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

cashcratebob said:


> Maybe it has something to do with the push for marriage within christian churches? Can't have sex until married, so get married. That's a big generalization, but it isn't a generalization to say a lot of discussion regarding marriage takes place within the church at a young age.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Please don't confuse what is ideal with what is actually happening.

Even Christians are, for a large part, engaging in pre-marital sex. 

A few years ago, a friend on mine decided to try Christian Mingle...when he was anything but Christian. Two months later he had a rotation of 3-5 FWB's at any given time...all of them found from the site. 

Speaking as a Christian...a common MO I have seen is to live like hell Monday through Saturday, and then pay your penance in guilt on Sunday. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## cashcratebob (Jan 10, 2018)

farsidejunky said:


> Please don't confuse what is ideal with what is actually happening.
> 
> Even Christians are, for a large part, engaging in pre-marital sex.
> 
> ...


Sure, I really have no insight at this point as to how young Christians/non-christians are interacting on christian mingle, being a middle aged happily married christian. MY POINT was to say that marriage is strongly encouraged and talked about extensively, even at the expense of other more relevant topics. Such that, and I'll use this word to convey the point, young folks are brainwashed to seek and find a spouse ASAP. I would argue that a women searching christian mingle could be using that sight to filter out some undesirable characteristics but not looking necessarily for a christian. 

The fastest thing to go is a confident, handsome, 25-30yr old single christian guy in a church environment. Now I wasn't really considering the use of christian mingle in my assertions (again, married for a while), but more the boots on the ground, what is going down in churches. 

Its almost awkward how young single women flock to a well rounded single christian dude in a church. Marriage (not love) at first sight!


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I might just be too far out from the game to even know what is going on but I see responsible young men who get jobs and their own lives getting a pretty big selection of available women while a seemingly increasing amount of men appear pretty sub par.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

farsidejunky said:


> Please don't confuse what is ideal with what is actually happening.
> 
> Even Christians are, for a large part, engaging in pre-marital sex.
> 
> ...


That makes sense. They're trying get satisfied in one place while appear virginal in another. 

i read that some women maintain their virginity by engaging in anal sex/


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

CraigBesuden said:


> Mandy Hale on why she’s still single at 39:
> 
> https://mandyhale.com/2018/11/21/why-im-still-single-the-ugly-truth/


"I never meet guys. Like…literally NEVER. A few years ago I felt like I could simply walk into a room and command the attention of the men in the room. I had no trouble meeting men. I got hit on regularly. But something changed along the way and that’s not my experience anymore. " --- 

Yea she hit the wall.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Ursula said:


> Example: my XH lived with his Mom, and his Mom did absolutely everything for him to the point where he was pretty clueless about common sense things.


THAT is what I think is the core issue in this thread. Moms are awesome, wonderful, loving, nurturing, wise, patient, forgiving, all around great and take care of everything for you. Check this out, this mom has already taught her child how to read before his first day of preschool:










Men grow up and naturally want to find a partner to take on this exact role for their adult life. Problem is that sometimes young women often do not yet have the experience and incredible wisdom yet for the challenges of being a mom. So I guess newlywed women without kids are kinda like moms to be in training. Check out this wife:


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

I think a lot of women are single when they don't want to be because they refuse to change their behavior which turns men off. Of course, when you're younger and at your peak in looks, men will at least approach. As one gets older, not so much.

in the 50s, when getting married was a career choice, women were careful to be mindful of opinions floating around them. Don't even give the appearance of looking too easy, and so on.

These days women believe
1. It's best to "Be Yourself."
2. they don't a "rat's ass" what others think. I guess that includes a guy they mght be interested in.
3. Why do they have to change for some man?


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

I wonder if it's just a question of math. These women are limiting their options to a small pool of guys (church-goers) and looking for the suave ones to swoop them up. I'm wondering if the suave church guys are limiting themselves to the same pool though.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

NextTimeAround said:


> I think a lot of women are single when they don't want to be because they refuse to change their behavior which turns men off. Of course, when you're younger and at your peak in looks, men will at least approach. As one gets older, not so much.
> 
> in the 50s, when getting married was a career choice, women were careful to be mindful of opinions floating around them. Don't even give the appearance of looking too easy, and so on.
> 
> ...


They don't. In the 50's they were financially dependent on their husband. So, you don't want to look like used goods to prospective suitors. Now women have careers, so they spend their 20's on the mechanical bull and moving up the corporate latter. Only to realize their womb is all dried up when they are finally ready for the family. Guess its a trade off.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> They don't. In the 50's they were financially dependent on their husband. So, you don't want to look like used goods to prospective suitors. Now women have careers, so they spend their 20's on the mechanical bull and moving up the corporate latter. Only to realize their womb is all dried up when they are finally ready for the family. Guess its a trade off.


I don't see it quite that way. In fact, some women who are very business savvy bring that savviness into their personal life. But there needs to be a twist.

One of my sister's friends complained that he was trying to end a brief dating siutation but the woman would not take no for an anwer. She was a lobbyist so I guess she thought if that raw behavior works at work........


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> I might just be too far out from the game to even know what is going on but I see responsible young men who get jobs and their own lives getting a pretty big selection of available women while a seemingly increasing amount of men appear pretty sub par.


And these guys can be honest, hard working, educated, wealthy, good looking, kind individuals who will make excellent husbands and fathers but if they aren’t going to Church regularly then they are out of bounds for all these Catholic women.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The average guy used to know that he had to make himself more attractive to achieve a good outcome.

Sadly, by 18 he has now discovered that it is easier to get his dopamine and endorphin fixes from video games and porn. 

This is partly on him and partly on the ‘I am woman hear me roar’ model of the new world. 




ConanHub said:


> I might just be too far out from the game to even know what is going on but I see responsible young men who get jobs and their own lives getting a pretty big selection of available women while a seemingly increasing amount of men appear pretty sub par.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The last thing I want is for anyone to change their behavior for me. 

I mean that. 

It’s also true that, when you actually listen to people in a friendly, low affect manner, they tend to show you their true selves.

Prior to meeting M2 - plenty of women told me enough for me to run by end of the first date. 




NextTimeAround said:


> I think a lot of women are single when they don't want to be because they refuse to change their behavior which turns men off. Of course, when you're younger and at your peak in looks, men will at least approach. As one gets older, not so much.
> 
> in the 50s, when getting married was a career choice, women were careful to be mindful of opinions floating around them. Don't even give the appearance of looking too easy, and so on.
> 
> ...


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> And these guys can be honest, hard working, educated, wealthy, good looking, kind individuals who will make excellent husbands and fathers but if they aren’t going to Church regularly then they are out of bounds for all these Catholic women.


There is that.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Nope. The world was watching as we were pulverized and ground down to nothing.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

MEM2020 said:


> *The last thing I want is for anyone to change their behavior for me. *
> 
> I mean that.
> 
> ...


We all change as we have experiences and contemplate how to do things better next time.

I'm not nearly as friendly as I used to be. Decades ago I tried to put with female "friends." By the time I met my second husband, I knew that that was a waste of time. 8 year together now (5 married), if he regrets having dumped his "friend," he has certainly not betrayed that sentiment.


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## 2&out (Apr 16, 2015)

As the father of 2 young adults in their 20's I'm wondering where and who these want to get married ones are. Mine and all of their friends have very little interest in getting married until they are in their 30's. They are building careers and doing fun adventurous things now and until then. I think statistics bear out a lot less people are getting married in their 20's.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

badsanta said:


> Men grow up and naturally want to find a partner to take on this exact role for their adult life. Problem is that sometimes young women often do not yet have the experience and incredible wisdom yet for the challenges of being a mom. So I guess newlywed women without kids are kinda like moms to be in training.


But, what about equal partnerships? Maybe more women are single because they don’t want to be a Mommy figure to a grown man.




NextTimeAround said:


> I think a lot of women are single when they don't want to be because they refuse to change their behavior which turns men off. Of course, when you're younger and at your peak in looks, men will at least approach. As one gets older, not so much.
> 
> These days women believe
> 1. It's best to "Be Yourself."
> ...


I agree with some of this, but the same could be said for men: maybe they refuse to change their behaviour as well. To your 3 points, I fully believe that when you’re getting to know one another, it’s best to be yourself (that goes for both men and women). I also think that people shouldn’t have to change their inherent personality in order to be with someone. Changing things like: not leaving dirty dishes sitting around, or other small things like that, isn’t a big deal, but when you’re talking about changing who a person is at the heart of the matter, that’s a big change and a big deal (that goes for both men and women). Do I give a rat’s ass about with others think? Of course I do. I cared a lot of my XH when we were together, and I cared about his thoughts/opinions on things. Problem was that he didn’t give a rat’s ass about mine. I also care very much about my current partner, and anyone in their right mind and who isn’t super self-centred, would care about others.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> They don't. In the 50's they were financially dependent on their husband. So, you don't want to look like used goods to prospective suitors. Now women have careers, so they spend their 20's on the mechanical bull and moving up the corporate latter. Only to realize their womb is all dried up when they are finally ready for the family. Guess its a trade off.


I've never moved up a corporate ladder, but I did get stuck in some crappy relationships, then a crappy marriage that I refused to bring kids into. I would never bring a baby into that kind of chaos; that's no kind of life for a little one. So yeah, for some women, the tradeoff comes from making poor relationship choices and stay, hoping for change. :-(


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

I guess we are talking about chainging for the better and not for any one person. 

The guy I dated between marriages would stand firm whenever we had a disagreement (like his wanting to move into my place and pay something towards the rent), we would go around and round until it became clear to him that I wasn't changing. Then he would and he looked like whiny little rat doing it too. So it's never good to try to hold out and then switch up at the last minute.

Still though, I am thinking about women's behavior that if tweaked might be for the better. 

My sister went on a couple of dates with a guy, so far so good. But then we learned that between dates she was talking hours long phone calls. I tried telling her not to do that since it would appear as if she has nothing else to do and then have nothing to talk about on the next date. Aldos, I learned that just because people don't say something doesn't mean they're not thinking it. Of course, it's not a good to be paranoid, but at least to be prectical. Maybe end the call at 30 minutes, if they want to continue that' a good sign. 

And of course, my mother who likes to put me down told me my advice was crazy and stop hassling my sister. I realized the pattern that my mother had to always take against me ....... even when the advice is bad. 

in any case, that was about 15 years and she is still single.

I've decided that for the most part, if someone gives me advice that sounds reasonable and doesn't cost me anything to try, well, I might try it. but of course, most people only value advice when they have to pay for it.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

CraigBesuden said:


> I’d assumed that the problem many secular women face — not enough “eligible” men resulting in women ending up childless — would not extend to the religious. But my wife has a cousin turning 25 who is worried that she’s running out of time. Her sister, who is 28, said “she has the same problem I do - she can’t find someone better than her.”
> 
> Are Catholic and evangelical women having trouble finding guys worth marrying? Enduring a long “season of singleness” waiting for God to send them a husband?
> 
> ...


This is absolutely the case in the UK, and its not just in the younger age groups but all age groups. I was on Christian dating sites for about 2 years in my late 40's and the numbers of women to men was about 3-4 to one. Also because men tend to want younger women, the numbers are skewed even more. All of the churches I have been to had far more single women than men. 

I feel blessed to have met and married my Christian husband. He had been on a Christian dating site for merely days when I contacted him. Incidently he is Australian where this article is from.

IN the UK only 5-6% even go to church, so you can see why so many Christian women are single.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> And these guys can be honest, hard working, educated, wealthy, good looking, kind individuals who will make excellent husbands and fathers but if they aren’t going to Church regularly then they are out of bounds for all these Catholic women.


I am not RC but God does tell us not to marry a non believer for good reason.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> Andy1001 said:
> 
> 
> > And these guys can be honest, hard working, educated, wealthy, good looking, kind individuals who will make excellent husbands and fathers but if they aren’t going to Church regularly then they are out of bounds for all these Catholic women.
> ...


True. If I am living my faith the way I am SUPPOSED to be living my faith, then someone who doesn't share it (or worse, thinks they are "above" it) and I are not going to mesh because the core of our.....motivation for how we live is too different.

And that isn't intended as a slam. I mean, a fit vegan won't mesh with a hamburger eating couch potato, and a democratic socialist progressive activist won't mesh with a prolife conservative Republican.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> I feel blessed to have met and married my Christian husband. He had been on a Christian dating site for merely days when I contacted him.


I was 28 when I used Match all those 16 years ago. I put up a single low-res picture of me, purposely put down little info and understated everything about me. The idea was to see what would happen with that profile, then later, totally do it up right and see the difference in response. But I never had the chance. I wasn’t on there long and married the second woman I dated. I was surprised at what I was able to attract with just that.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

CraigBesuden said:


> I was 28 when I used Match all those 16 years ago. I put up a single low-res picture of me, purposely put down little info and understated everything about me. The idea was to see what would happen with that profile, then later, totally do it up right and see the difference in response. But I never had the chance. I wasn’t on there long and married the second woman I dated. I was surprised at what I was able to attract with just that.


Yes thats my point, for women on these sites its pretty awful. For men far far easier.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> I am not RC but God does tell us not to marry a non believer for good reason.


Of course he does. 
He’s hardly likely to tell you to shack up with an atheist. 
No more than a car salesmen will tell you to buy a Harley.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

I decided that someone relgious would not be right for me. All I can imagine is his getting pissed every Sunday morning. So, yeah, that's an example when people need to be honest with themselves.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> True. If I am living my faith the way I am SUPPOSED to be living my faith, then someone who doesn't share it (or worse, thinks they are "above" it) and I are not going to mesh because the core of our.....motivation for how we live is too different.
> 
> And that isn't intended as a slam. I mean, a fit vegan won't mesh with a hamburger eating couch potato, and a democratic socialist progressive activist won't mesh with a prolife conservative Republican.


If it's not right for you, then don't do it, but be careful about saying what won't work for others. 

I do not like James Carville and I am a Democrat, but I find his marriage to Mary Matalin inspiring. If it's not familiar, you can look it up.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

My impression is that women are more likely to complain about the dating pool than men b/c they're more likely to get sympathy than men will making the same complaints.

Finding a good mate is often difficult, but we're all on our own. Or as the old saying goes "You can marry anyone you please. On the other hand, if you don't please anyone, you won't be getting married."


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Person,

There are two dimensions two every religion. One of them describes the relationship with you have with a higher power, the second defines how you are supposed to treat the material world and it’s inhabitants: 
- Your and other people’s children
- Other members of your faith
- Outsiders to your faith
- Semi-sentients (whales, crows, chimps, pigs, etc...)

Some people need to be fully synchronized with a partner on one and two. Others are ok being synchronized on how you handle the physical world. 

If one person follows the golden rule, because that is what drives them, and the other makes the same choices partly due to consideration of the afterlife, well I guess for some folks that becomes troublesome. 

I will say - as a non Christian - that I’m glad M2’s view of the Bible is that - she absolutely rejects the idea that:
- slavery is ok and/or
- that slavery in biblical times was different/less harsh than it was on mid 19th century cotton plantations

And she would add that the Bible, like the Koran is filled with sections that have significantly different tones. In some sections God is kinder and more merciful. In others, harsher and more overtly punitive. 

But yes - I agree with you on one thing. I wouldn’t be compatible with a literalist anymore than they would be compatible with me. For instance if M2 had been insistent on limiting our BC to Natural Family Planning, that would have been a deal killer for me. 








personofinterest said:


> True. If I am living my faith the way I am SUPPOSED to be living my faith, then someone who doesn't share it (or worse, thinks they are "above" it) and I are not going to mesh because the core of our.....motivation for how we live is too different.
> 
> And that isn't intended as a slam. I mean, a fit vegan won't mesh with a hamburger eating couch potato, and a democratic socialist progressive activist won't mesh with a prolife conservative Republican.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

What about believing in God and having a relationship with Him on your own terms? Would they qualify? I know its not looked well upon in most teachings, but does everything have to be black, white, or grey? Throw a little red, blue, and yellow in there you know?


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> True. If I am living my faith the way I am SUPPOSED to be living my faith, then someone who doesn't share it (or worse, thinks they are "above" it) and I are not going to mesh because the core of our.....motivation for how we live is too different.
> 
> And that isn't intended as a slam. I mean, a fit vegan won't mesh with a hamburger eating couch potato, and a democratic socialist progressive activist won't mesh with a prolife conservative Republican.


https://www.dallasobserver.com/arts...w-us-how-right-and-left-can-get-along-9115438


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

SpinyNorman said:


> If it's not right for you, then don't do it, but be careful about saying what won't work for others.
> 
> I do not like James Carville and I am a Democrat, but I find his marriage to Mary Matalin inspiring. If it's not familiar, you can look it up.


Crap, you beat me to it. Carville and Matalin are really something special. And in keeping with the theme that our heroes will always let us down, my heart will break when if they eventually can't keep it going.


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> Person,
> 
> There are two dimensions two every religion. One of them describes the relationship with you have with a higher power, the second defines how you are supposed to treat the material world and it’s inhabitants:
> - Your and other people’s children
> ...


Protestant (currently agnostic) that married a Catholic (currently non-practicing) agreeing here in hindsight. And yet at the time, passion made this irrelevant. We felt what we felt.


----------



## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

CraigBesuden said:


> “If they’re single church-goers, they’re usually awkward and in want of basic social awareness (a big turn-off for most women).“
> 
> A cynic would say they lack “game” and/or social experience.



I see. 


And do these women who are complaining also have the female version of "game" themselves?


(and I would assume that "game" for either sex would mean the skill set needed to make themselves more attractive and interesting to a potential partner).


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Mr. Nail said:


> Interesting topic that would be fun to respond to in a open forum like Politics and Religion, where I wouldn't be banned for answering the question.
> But for a tiny hint sticking to relationship advice, carefully examine this part of the original post, "she can’t find someone better than her.”


This exactly. If you want a better-than-average partner then you have to be better-than-average yourself. 

Religious preference aside, what makes a person "a good catch" does not differ much between Christians and non-Christians. A guy who's good looking, makes a good living, etc. is going to be more desirable than one who isn't, especially if he's marriage-minded.

If her church is like my old one, then you see the same couples in church on Sundays and there's probably some social events taking place as well. I'd suggest her to get involved, get to know people and see what the women are like who are getting the types of guys whom she finds attractive. Then set about closing the gap if that needs to happen.

I don't mean to be a jerk or cold, but sometimes it's that simple. If the job you want requires certain qualifications you don't have, you either obtain those qualifications or adjust your aim.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

cashcratebob said:


> Its almost awkward how young single women flock to a well rounded single christian dude in a church. Marriage (not love) at first sight!


There's probably lots of truth to that. But those guys still do come around, and some ladies are getting them. The solution is still to figure out how to stand out from the crowd.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Fozzy said:


> I wonder if it's just a question of math. These women are limiting their options to a small pool of guys (church-goers) and looking for the suave ones to swoop them up. I'm wondering if the suave church guys are limiting themselves to the same pool though.


Interesting point. From the ladies I know, commitment-minded men are in short supply in many walks of life. If that's so, then even they are limiting themselves to the same pool, they are going to have more options because of the supply-demand factor.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> Yes thats my point, for women on these sites its pretty awful. For men far far easier.


That's interesting. I've heard the opposite - that men tend to outnumber women on OLD sites and women have lots on indications of interest. Now this might not translate to finding a good long-term relationship partner, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's awful for women.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

DTO said:


> That's interesting. I've heard the opposite - that men tend to outnumber women on OLD sites and women have lots on indications of interest. Now this might not translate to finding a good long-term relationship partner, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's awful for women.


I think women in OLD are inundated with messages by old, unattractive men with little going for them. I’ve read 18 yo girls creeped out by fat 45 yo men messaging that they think she’s hot. That’s not really an advantage in dating.

Like guys swiping right on every female, then the women have to sift through to find the three good ones. (And those three guys have fifty women after them.)


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

If M2 has a fatal cardiac event, after some amount of time my personal add will read:

ISO: Smart, funny (this means we make each other laugh easily and often), light edge, high level of self awareness, employs the golden rule in the day to day, fit (I like hiking), lightly formatted. Asperger-ish candidates welcome. 

If someone cannot read that and get the basic idea, we wouldn’t be compatible. If someone considers themselves a good Christian despite not following the golden rule, than we have a core disagreement as to what constitutes a good Christian.




Wolfman1968 said:


> I see.
> 
> 
> And do these women who are complaining also have the female version of "game" themselves?
> ...


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*I, for one, don't think that a plethora of women really desire a relationship with a guy of committed Christian values, for whatever reason! Maybe it's because they cling to the "bad boy syndrome" thinking that a Christian guy is not sexy or is no fun!

And unfortunately for them, that's a rather sad commentary! 

My entire line of thought is that if my liberal Christian values is not what they want, then I just prefer not to be around them!*


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Fozzy said:


> https://www.dallasobserver.com/arts...w-us-how-right-and-left-can-get-along-9115438


That is a wonderful article. I think a mainstream Democrat and a mainstream Republican can have a great relationship. I do not know that an activist, passionate, vocal uber-feminist far left socialist and a far right, tea Party, Alex Jones fan Republican would do as well lol.

Politics is probably a bad analogy, now that I think of it. I identify with certain policies of a particular party, but there is no political party that is the core of who I am as a person. My faith is.

And as far as telling everyone else what to do....I would never do that. I simply refer to what the Bible (which I didn't write but which is supposed to be the foundational book for a Biblical Christian) clearly states. It's kind of like being upset with your 4th grade teacher when they explain how fractions work. Your teacher didn't invent fractions. She's just the messenger 

I'm not sure what in heck slavery in or out of the Bible has to do with anything, since I never mentioned slavery, though it is a favorite "gotcha: topic. And that's what I mean. I couldn't be with someone who respected who I am so little that they felt compelled to try to poke holes and trip me up.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> *I, for one, don't think that a plethora of women really desire a relationship with a guy of committed Christian values, for whatever reason! Maybe it's because they cling to the "bad boy syndrome" thinking that a Christian guy is not sexy or is no fun!
> 
> And unfortunately for them, that's a rather sad commentary!
> 
> My entire line of thought is that if my liberal Christian values is not what they want, then I just prefer not to be around them!*


Arb, some women get suspicious of men who advertise their faith. It seems the ones who bang the drum the loudest turn out to be the biggest hypocrites. They are just wary.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> Arb, some women get suspicious of men who advertise their faith. It seems the ones who bang the drum the loudest turn out to be the biggest hypocrites. They are just wary.


“My imaginary friend in the sky is much better than yours”.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> “My imaginary friend in the sky is much better than yours”.


Break it down for me, ok?


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## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

CraigBesuden said:


> I’d assumed that the problem many secular women face — not enough “eligible” men resulting in women ending up childless — would not extend to the religious. But my wife has a cousin turning 25 who is worried that she’s running out of time. Her sister, who is 28, said “she has the same problem I do - she can’t find someone better than her.”
> 
> Are Catholic and evangelical women having trouble finding guys worth marrying? Enduring a long “season of singleness” waiting for God to send them a husband?
> 
> ...


At first glance this seems like a lot of conditions to meet. The "perfect mate" as it were. Does this type of person even exist in real life? How can you be an evangelical/Catholic (I have practiced BOTH faiths) and be "worldly-wise?" So you want an experienced, church going man in his prime? Sounds like a tall order.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

I've personally never understood the need to match up via faith. It's a rather personal thing that shouldn't impact anyone else. It's your own relationship with God. Similarly to how you can have great friends of all different belief systems. I dont see why the same can't be said for a partner. 

Obviously if it's important to you to match on that level, by all means go for it. 

I say all this as a believer in God, but not a follower of any religion. Maybe that's the difference. I'm not really a fan of being told what types of relationships I'm supposed to have. Especially my relationship with God. Seems rather disingenuous to base your relationships off of anything but how you actually think and feel. I think perhaps that's more a product of man than it is of God. But that's just my interpretation.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I've personally never understood the need to match up via faith. It's a rather personal thing that shouldn't impact anyone else. It's your own relationship with God. Similarly to how you can have great friends of all different belief systems. I dont see why the same can't be said for a partner.
> 
> Obviously if it's important to you to match on that level, by all means go for it.
> 
> I say all this as a believer in God, but not a follower of any religion. Maybe that's the difference. I'm not really a fan of being told what types of relationships I'm supposed to have. Especially my relationship with God. Seems rather disingenuous to base your relationships off of anything but how you actually think and feel. I think perhaps that's more a product of man than it is of God. But that's just my interpretation.


All this seems logical and common-sensical (is that an actual word?).

For Christians, Paul strongly suggests, even commands a believer to marry in the faith.

The exact reason for that I don't know, but I suspect when all other things are equaled out, this could remove one more area of potential marital strife.

Also, probably to do with the raising of children. 

Just some thoughts.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

> At first glance this seems like a lot of conditions to meet. The "perfect mate" as it were. Does this type of person even exist in real life? How can you be an evangelical/Catholic (I have practiced BOTH faiths) and be "worldly-wise?" So you want an experienced, church going man in his prime? Sounds like a tall order.


Yep. I’m a lot more “worldly-wise” than I was when I met my wife. I’m better in most ways since then. It’s often said that men marry a woman hoping she’ll never change, while women marry a man hoping to change him. But a lot of women today demand a finished product. You need to be nearly perfect just to merit a first date.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

OnTheFly said:


> All this seems logical and common-sensical (is that an actual word?).
> 
> For Christians, Paul strongly suggests, even commands a believer to marry in the faith.
> 
> ...


Kids are raised to believe in Santa until they figure it out. Taking kids to church gives them a foundation, but most people find their own path eventually. Wife and kids go to church, I don't. My wife respects my beliefs, I respect hers. The kids dont have a belief. They have what they are taught to believe, which isn't their own belief. 

I dont have anything against church, but some members are just silly. All that hands to the sky while singing and all that holy ghosting or whatever. I mean, do you, but churches always feel rather cultish to me. Just isn't for me, its not genuine to who I am. But I'm not opposed to kids going. They are in youth groups making friends and having good clean fun. Even if you dont believe in God, I'm not sure why anyone would see that as a bad thing. 

As for martial strife, that's just par for the course. Welcome to being married. If you're not forced to compromise in one area, you will still be forced to in about 1000 others. The religious beliefs aspect seems like a simple one to work out. I work with muslims, catholics, atheists, Christians, agnostics... we all get along just fine and religious beliefs are never a source of contention, like not ever.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Kids are raised to believe in Santa until they figure it out. Taking kids to church gives them a foundation, but most people find their own path eventually. Wife and kids go to church, I don't. My wife respects my beliefs, I respect hers. The kids dont have a belief. They have what they are taught to believe, which isn't their own belief.
> 
> I dont have anything against church, but some members are just silly. All that hands to the sky while singing and all that holy ghosting or whatever. I mean, do you, but churches always feel rather cultish to me. Just isn't for me, its not genuine to who I am. But I'm not opposed to kids going. They are in youth groups making friends and having good clean fun. Even if you dont believe in God, I'm not sure why anyone would see that as a bad thing.
> 
> As for martial strife, that's just par for the course. Welcome to being married. If you're not forced to compromise in one area, you will still be forced to in about 1000 others. The religious beliefs aspect seems like a simple one to work out. I work with muslims, catholics, atheists, Christians, agnostics... we all get along just fine and religious beliefs are never a source of contention, like not ever.


Yeah, I agree, logical and common sensical.

But, as a Christian, I would still follow the command of the Bible, as I did 1/4 century ago. It surely reduced my available pool of eligible ladies, and it hasn't been bliss the entire time, but it's an easy command to follow. And if I found myself widowed, I'd do it again. 

I hope I'm not giving the impression that I'm arguing with you.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

OnTheFly said:


> Yeah, I agree, logical and common sensical.
> 
> But, as a Christian, I would still follow the command of the Bible, as I did 1/4 century ago. It surely reduced my available pool of eligible ladies, and it hasn't been bliss the entire time, but it's an easy command to follow. And if I found myself widowed, I'd do it again.
> 
> I hope I'm not giving the impression that I'm arguing with you.


Not at all. Religious discussions don't really offend me. I had a group of mormons stop by my home once about a decade ago, and to my wife's horror, I invited them in and we talked to a good hour. Wife left the room to hide in the back of the house embarrassed of me I'm sure lol. I was just in one of those moods I guess. We sat at my table and just talked about beliefs. I questioned and questioned them. In the end, we just went about our separate ways and off on their bikes they went. We never answer our front door either. But I watched them ride up and for whatever reason I wanted to get an idea of what they actually go around doing. 

The Muslim guys I work with, i ask them what their service was about after the weekends and stuff. I question them, they question me. We've shared videos with each other with different religious talking points. Nobody is upset. It's a personal thing. 

I was raised in a Christian home. Went to private Christian school until 6fh grade when I begged to go to public school. Even in church I never stuck around in youth group. I would sneak off and go to the gym and play basketball instead of going to youth group. One day I did go, then told everyone i had to go to the bathroom. I was probably 6 or 7 years old 
I didn't go to the bathroom and instead went outside to play and climb around on these brick signs and decorative walls and stuff. The entire group with the teachers came outside looking for me and I saw them. I hid behind the bricks until they went back inside. I remember my mom wasnt mad, she just told me to not scare people like that and they were probably worried about me that something had happened. 
Even that young, church just wasnt for me. It never was.

My wife's parents are Buddhist, being from Vietnam. She found Christianity rather late in life and it's the relationship she needs with God. If she was Christian when we met, perhaps we wouldn't be married. I can understand why it's important to so many. There's nothing wrong with either way is my thing, marrying inside or outside of your religious beliefs. But I can understand it would be very difficult for many to consider marrying outside of their belief system.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

CraigBesuden said:


> I think women in OLD are inundated with messages by old, unattractive men with little going for them. I’ve read 18 yo girls creeped out by fat 45 yo men messaging that they think she’s hot. That’s not really an advantage in dating.
> 
> Like guys swiping right on every female, then the women have to sift through to find the three good ones. (And those three guys have fifty women after them.)


The oldest gentleman who contacted me while I was online dating was 74 (I'm 41). And, I lost count of the dudes who contacted me solely for sex, but they ranged in age from early 20s up to about 50.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

aquarius1 said:


> At first glance this seems like a lot of conditions to meet. The "perfect mate" as it were. Does this type of person even exist in real life? How can you be an evangelical/Catholic (I have practiced BOTH faiths) and be "worldly-wise?" So you want an experienced, church going man in his prime? Sounds like a tall order.


Why do you believe a man or woman of faith can't be world-wide, to use that term, or pick a synonym?


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Why do you believe a man or woman of faith can't be world-wide, to use that term, or pick a synonym?


Pitbull believes in God and he is Mr Worldwide.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I've personally never understood the need to match up via faith. It's a rather personal thing that shouldn't impact anyone else. It's your own relationship with God. Similarly to how you can have great friends of all different belief systems. I dont see why the same can't be said for a partner.


Well for me the thing is, it's not just my relationship with ... well, I'm not Christian, I'm Buddhist ... it's not just my belief system. Religion isn't just what you _believe_, it's what you _do_. Maybe even more so. I would have no problem loving and being in a relationship with someone who didn't share my religion, except, I'm going to want to spend my Sunday mornings at a service, and I'm going to want to eat this and not that, and I'm going to want to spend my holiday at a retreat meditating, and my Tuesday evenings at a scripture study group, etc, and if the other person has no reason to want to do those things, it's going to get awkward. Religion isn't just another hobby, nor is it just an idea.

I am sort of looking for a suitable partner, but not with much hope.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

​


Laurentium said:


> Well for me the thing is, it's not just my relationship with ... well, I'm not Christian, I'm Buddhist ... it's not just my belief system. Religion isn't just what you _believe_, it's what you _do_. Maybe even more so. I would have no problem loving and being in a relationship with someone who didn't share my religion, except, I'm going to want to spend my Sunday mornings at a service, and I'm going to want to eat this and not that, and I'm going to want to spend my holiday at a retreat meditating, and my Tuesday evenings at a scripture study group, etc, and if the other person has no reason to want to do those things, it's going to get awkward. Religion isn't just another hobby, nor is it just an idea.
> 
> I am sort of looking for a suitable partner, but not with much hope.



Trust me, I understand. What I do and what I need, what I personally get out of it will be different from many people. For me personally its a path to a more fulfilling life and God's desire to share that with you as well as have a relationship with you. I just don't subscribe to the idea that everyone has to walk the same path. That's my own thing with religious teachings that I just can't get down with personally. That would also imply that there's a correct one and incorrect ones. A correct way to live and be happy, and everything else is incorrect. That's just not for me.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> *Arb, some women get suspicious of men who advertise their faith. It seems the ones who bang the drum the loudest turn out to be the biggest hypocrites. They are just wary.*


*I don't think that I consciously bang my drum at all! Which could be my problem!

But if they happen to see it in me, then by all means they should call it to my immediate attention!

Regardless, being a Christian man is something that I am not ashamed of in the least!*


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> *I don't think that I consciously bang my drum at all! Which could be my problem!
> 
> But if they happen to see it in me, then by all means they should call it to my immediate attention!
> 
> Regardless, being a Christian man is something that I am not ashamed of in the least!*


Right with you on that note Arb! Bold, barbarian and Christian here!:grin2:


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> *I don't think that I consciously bang my drum at all! Which could be my problem!
> 
> But if they happen to see it in me, then by all means they should call it to my immediate attention!
> 
> Regardless, being a Christian man is something that I am not ashamed of in the least!*


Arb, I never meant to imply that you were one of those men. Please accept my apology.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> Arb, I never meant to imply that you were one of those men. Please accept my apology.


*No apology needed, Sweetheart, as no offense was taken!*


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Right with you on that note Arb! Bold, barbarian and Christian here!:grin2:


*Glad to stand right alongside you, brother, in total admiration of a betrayed, murdered man, who came into our world to effect God's holy gift of Salvation!*


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## attheend02 (Jan 8, 2019)

Fozzy said:


> Crap, you beat me to it. Carville and Matalin are really something special. And in keeping with the theme that our heroes will always let us down, my heart will break when if they eventually can't keep it going.


Its only because Matalin is a RINO


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## attheend02 (Jan 8, 2019)

I'm finding there are not enough atheist woman.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

attheend02 said:


> I'm finding there are not enough atheist woman.


Theres more than enough women of all types. 

My belief, the issue is people expect perfection. Every damn thing is a deal breaker. Just look at this site! Someone could come on here and say they are mad their husband/wife likes to eat spaghetti with a spoon and undoubtedly someone will come on here and say "I would just leave. No way I would put up with that. Why do you allow them to eat spaghetti with spoons? People treat you how you allow them"

Seems like most people here advocate for others to leave their relationship as opposed to working on or finding a fix. "Just leave, find someone else" is the mantra. Then they sit and complain about not being able to find anyone. Most counselors advocate to split too, which is why I dont trust them. Plus most of them are divorced themselves lol. That's like asking a fat guy for advice about diets. 

Anyone here with 10, 15, 20, 35+ year marriages think your spouse is perfect? Anyone here think you are perfect and therefore deserve perfect?


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

arbitrator said:


> *I, for one, don't think that a plethora of women really desire a relationship with a guy of committed Christian values, for whatever reason! Maybe it's because they cling to the "bad boy syndrome" thinking that a Christian guy is not sexy or is no fun!
> 
> And unfortunately for them, that's a rather sad commentary!
> 
> My entire line of thought is that if my liberal Christian values is not what they want, then I just prefer not to be around them!*


I’m with you. It seems like women are looking for Mr Adventure and bad boy types.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

southbound said:


> arbitrator said:
> 
> 
> > *I, for one, don't think that a plethora of women really desire a relationship with a guy of committed Christian values, for whatever reason! Maybe it's because they cling to the "bad boy syndrome" thinking that a Christian guy is not sexy or is no fun!
> ...


No, that's just the cynicism talking


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

southbound said:


> I’m with you. It seems like women are looking for Mr Adventure and bad boy types.


Idk about that. I'm not sure what the bad boy type is or what they even look like. I'm sure some consider me a bad boy type, and I'm definitely not fighting them off with a stick saying "ladies please! I'm married here!" 

@Andy1001 what about you eh? Were you the bad boy type? Are you tall dark and handsome with big biceps and pecks? Packing a decently noticeable bulge in loose fitting jeans? Lol. 

I just think its confidence and a sense of humor that makes them laugh. If you can make them laugh man, that goes a very long way IME. Consistently make them laugh. Confidence, while being self deprecating at the same time. Things like that. This ain't rocket surgery. 

There's also a fine line between letting a girl know you are interested and being creepy that some men just have no grasp of it seems. Every girl has a million creepy guy stories. A million new ones every year that is. Most of them probably aren't creepy for real if you really think about the percentages of actual creepers out there. Or maybe there just is that many creepers lol. Should make it easier for a couple of stand-up blokes like yourselves if that's the case.


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2017)

Religious or secular, women tend to be attracted to money, power, status, or some combination of the three. Most simply are not attracted to males without at least one of the three attributes.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

[email protected] said:


> Religious or secular, women tend to be attracted to money, power, status, or some combination of the three. Most simply are not attracted to males without at least one of the three attributes.


Keep telling yourself that buddy.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> *No, that's just the cynicism talking.*


*At least for the vast majority of people, negative experiences usually breeds cynicism, doesn't it? *


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Idk about that. I'm not sure what the bad boy type is or what they even look like. I'm sure some consider me a bad boy type, and I'm definitely not fighting them off with a stick saying "ladies please! I'm married here!"
> 
> @Andy1001 what about you eh? Were you the bad boy type? Are you tall dark and handsome with big biceps and pecks? Packing a decently noticeable bulge in loose fitting jeans? Lol.
> 
> ...


*Just as every guy has a few creepy or arrogant girl stories!*


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Idk about that.
> 
> @Andy1001 what about you eh? Were you the bad boy type? Are you tall dark and handsome with big biceps and pecks? Packing a decently noticeable bulge in loose fitting jeans? Lol.


Modesty prevents me.........:


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

arbitrator said:


> *Just as every guy has a few creepy or arrogant girl stories!*


I told this story before and was suitably chastised by some of the female members of tam. 😃
When I was younger I called to collect a date at her house. She told me she wasn’t ready yet but said there were some dishes in her sink and would I wash them and put them away. 
I threw them in her pool. 
How about you Arb, anything happening on the dating front?


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

CraigBesuden said:


> I think so. Also, women are more likely to attend church. But I’m not so much talking about a scarcity of single Christian men but a scarcity of ELIGIBLE single Christian men. That is, the ones on the market aren’t worth having because they aren’t worldly wise, awkward, etc.


Read Dalrock's posts on finding a spouse (https://dalrock.wordpress.com/category/finding-a-spouse/).
Warning: this will probably be extremely depressing.


----------



## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

tech-novelist said:


> CraigBesuden said:
> 
> 
> > I think so. Also, women are more likely to attend church. But I’m not so much talking about a scarcity of single Christian men but a scarcity of ELIGIBLE single Christian men. That is, the ones on the market aren’t worth having because they aren’t worldly wise, awkward, etc.
> ...


“For as long as I can remember, I dreamed of having a large family. Five, six, seven, eight children — it didn’t matter; I was prepared to take as many children as God sent me. There was just one problem: My 20s came and went without God sending me a husband.

“Another decade passed, and with my single status unchanged, reality set in. There would be no eight babies. Nor would there be five babies.“

God will send a single woman a husband right after he sends me the winning Powerball ticket.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

CraigBesuden said:


> “For as long as I can remember, I dreamed of having a large family. Five, six, seven, eight children — it didn’t matter; I was prepared to take as many children as God sent me. There was just one problem: My 20s came and went without God sending me a husband.
> 
> “Another decade passed, and with my single status unchanged, reality set in. There would be no eight babies. Nor would there be five babies.“
> 
> God will send a single woman a husband right after he sends me the winning Powerball ticket.


I strongly feel that 8 kids is too much for any family. Maybe God was afraid of that.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

NextTimeAround said:


> I strongly feel that 8 kids is too much for any family. Maybe God was afraid of that.


You know something @NextTimeAround with that sentence you summed up what really pisses me off about religion and it’s practictioners. 
(This is not a personal attack, just a general comment.)
Every time that something happens that’s good you are supposed to thank God. 
When something doesn’t happen you get the platitudes “God didn’t think you needed that” or “God answered your prayers but you haven’t seen it yet”.
And when something really terrible happens to you you get told “God moves in mysterious ways “ or my own personal favorite when someone dies too young “God only takes the best”.
In life you can either make things happen or wait for things to happen. And that’s it.
There’s a story about a man buying a house that had been abandoned for a number of years. The garden in particular was in a dreadful state. The man worked long and hard for months and eventually he had a garden to be proud of. 
One evening he was cutting the grass when the local padre passed by. He said “Between yourself and the Lord you’ve done a great job on this garden”.
The man replied “You should have seen it when the Lord had it on his own”.
That woman in your story sat back and waited for a suitable man to come knocking at her door. 
She should have looked for him herself.


----------



## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

NextTimeAround said:


> I strongly feel that 8 kids is too much for any family. Maybe God was afraid of that.


Children are called a blessing.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

OnTheFly said:


> NextTimeAround said:
> 
> 
> > I strongly feel that 8 kids is too much for any family. Maybe God was afraid of that.
> ...


 Exactly. I cannot imagine having a children, but I am not arrogant enough to assume it's my place to decide how many children other people should have.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Andy1001 said:


> NextTimeAround said:
> 
> 
> > I strongly feel that 8 kids is too much for any family. Maybe God was afraid of that.
> ...


 Why does this piece you off? How does this affect you at all the? Would you rather people become bitter and pathetic every time something that happens instead of trying to find the way it can work for good? I find that pretty sad.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

The ideal number of children depends on the parents' ability to care for them. Personally, I believe that if you have to turn over the care for a baby to other children because you're too busy getting busy making the next one then you have too many children (yeah, Mrs. Duggar, I'm talking to you).


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> Why does this piece you off? How does this affect you at all the? Would you rather people become bitter and pathetic every time something that happens instead of trying to find the way it can work for good? I find that pretty sad.


Are you saying that people who claim to be religious are just using it as a prop to cope with every day problems? Rather than face their problems head on and try and do something about it? 
Why not just pop a pill every night before bed and wake up the next morning having forgotten every bad thing that happened the previous day. 
You think I’m sad? 
You couldn’t be more wrong.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Andy1001 said:


> You know something @NextTimeAround with that sentence you summed up what really pisses me off about religion and it’s practictioners.
> (This is not a personal attack, just a general comment.)
> Every time that something happens that’s good you are supposed to thank God.
> When something doesn’t happen you get the platitudes “God didn’t think you needed that” or “God answered your prayers but you haven’t seen it yet”.
> ...


Well, it does say God helps those who help themselves. So that part is clearly covered. What you are describing is coping mechanisms, and people giving thanks for what they have in life. /shrug


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

Blondilocks said:


> The ideal number of children depends on the parents' ability to care for them. Personally, I believe that if you have to turn over the care for a baby to other children because you're too busy getting busy making the next one then you have too many children (yeah, Mrs. Duggar, I'm talking to you).


A fellow I work with has 11 children. It's true, having older children to help care for the younger children certainly helps the mother, but I'm not so sure the motivation for having the older children was to make having the younger children easier. Seems convoluted to me. They decided to ride the wave of childbearing and see where it goes. God bless them!

The daughters have a huge head start when it comes to having their own children, win-win.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Well, it does say God helps those who help themselves.


lol, actually it doesn't!

Cleanliness is next to Godliness is also not there, haha


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

OnTheFly said:


> TheDudeLebowski said:
> 
> 
> > Well, it does say God helps those who help themselves.
> ...


Neither is "God won't give you more than you can handle"


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Well, it does say God helps those who help themselves. So that part is clearly covered. What you are describing is coping mechanisms, and people giving thanks for what they have in life. /shrug


So is it a true belief in God/Allah/Jehovah etc or a coping mechanism. 
You yourself made a comment in the girls night out thread when the subject of asking God a question arose.
“The answers are there, maybe we don’t do a good job of listening for them”.
This is meaningless to someone who needs help or solace. You may as well offer someone with cancer a piece of candy.


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

OnTheFly said:


> A fellow I work with has 11 children. It's true, having older children to help care for the younger children certainly helps the mother,* but I'm not so sure the motivation for having the older children was to make having the younger children easier*. Seems convoluted to me. They decided to ride the wave of childbearing and see where it goes. God bless them!
> 
> The daughters have a huge head start when it comes to having their own children, win-win.


:scratchhead:

The daughters may decide they have had enough of child-rearing by the time they marry. I have two cousins who decided exactly that. They feel they were robbed of their childhoods. They love their siblings they raised but resent them at the same time.


----------



## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

Blondilocks said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> The daughters may decide they have had enough of child-rearing by the time they marry. I have two cousins who decided exactly that. They feel they were robbed of their childhoods. They love their siblings they raised but resent them at the same time.


Possible too, can't argue.

As of yet, that hasn't happened in my anecdotal example of one family. But, I've seen and heard about this resentment (my wife for one.)

And yet my wife coos and giggles when I show her pix of my buddies family, lol


----------



## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

OnTheFly said:


> lol, actually it doesn't!
> 
> Cleanliness is next to Godliness is also not there, haha


I stand corrected. Well in this case I agree with Andy. Can't sit on your ass all day wishing and praying then ***** when nothing happens.


----------



## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

OnTheFly said:


> lol, actually it doesn't!
> 
> Cleanliness is next to Godliness is also not there, haha


“Hate the sin, love the sinner” is also not a biblical quote despite being bandied around on a daily basis by numerous “Holy” people. 
It was written by Gandhi in 1929.
A little more recent than people think.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

Andy1001 said:


> “Hate the sin, love the sinner” is also not a biblical quote despite being bandied around on a daily basis by numerous “Holy” people.
> It was written by Gandhi in 1929.
> A little more recent than people think.


Yup.

TAM....shattering myths is our game!


----------



## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Andy1001 said:


> So is it a true belief in God/Allah/Jehovah etc or a coping mechanism.
> You yourself made a comment in the girls night out thread when the subject of asking God a question arose.
> “The answers are there, maybe we don’t do a good job of listening for them”.
> This is meaningless to someone who needs help or solace. You may as well offer someone with cancer a piece of candy.


I dont see why it can't be both. People cope in different ways. Turning to ones faith is probably better than downing a bottle of jack or similar. 

As far as that comment, I dont remember the context. Perhaps it was a round about way to have someone take a look at things under a different perspective. I honestly dont remember the context of the quote. If you aren't a believer in God, you can also take that same comment as "search within yourself for the answers you seek"

I had another person on here get on to me for a Tool quote signature. "Repugnant is the creature who would squander the ability to life an eye to heaven conciousness of his fleeting time here" which again, only an atheist just trying to start **** would have a problem with that quote. What is heaven to you? Time with your family perhaps? Whatever your little slice of heaven is, doesn't matter. You can apply it to those lyrics and to your life. I dont see how anyone could take offense to that quote unless one is just trying to be an ass on purpose.


----------



## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I've personally never understood the need to match up via faith. It's a rather personal thing that shouldn't impact anyone else. It's your own relationship with God. Similarly to how you can have great friends of all different belief systems. I dont see why the same can't be said for a partner.
> 
> Obviously if it's important to you to match on that level, by all means go for it.


I guess it depends on one’s belief. You mention that it’s personal and shouldn’t impact anyone else, but there are many that believe it should impact others. There was a time when believers felt like they had a work to do in life, and that work usually consisted of helping others see the light, so to speak. Sharing religious beliefs just gets rid of an obstacle in the relationship. For people who really take it seriously, it would be tough to go through life loving somebody, but wondering if their soul is well or to see them do something that you feel they shouldn’t do all their life. Of course, if you don’t feel it that strongly, I suppose it doesn’t matter as much.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

southbound said:


> I guess it depends on one’s belief. You mention that it’s personal and shouldn’t impact anyone else, but there are many that believe it should impact others. There was a time when believers felt like they had a work to do in life, and that work usually consisted of helping others see the light, so to speak. Sharing religious beliefs just gets rid of an obstacle in the relationship. For people who really take it seriously, *it would be tough to go through life loving somebody, but wondering if their soul is well *or to see them do something that you feel they shouldn’t do all their life. Of course, if you don’t feel it that strongly, I suppose it doesn’t matter as much.


With or without a belief on God, people are going to do things their spouse thinks they shouldn't do. So this isn't adding or subtracting that element either way you slice it. A truly just and all knowing christian God wouldn't judge a Buddhist for example who's never been exposed to christianity due to where they live. If He does, then He's not truly just. Or perhaps he should send his followers to hell for not reaching those people in that remote Vietnam village?

Also, one of the issues I have with the church is followers seem to not understand the difference between sharing the word and preaching the word if you know what I mean. Lots of preaching out there. In what aspect of life, (outside of parenting young children,) is telling someone how they need to live their life an effective way to reach someone? 

The bolded, actually that's not hard at all. I'm pretty sure that's fairly common. I'm also pretty sure that's what you are taught to do.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

OnTheFly said:


> Children are called a blessing.


yes, they are. Parents should not be having kids with plans the older ones can take care of the younger ones. IOW, giving kids adult responsibilities....... and no authority, ie "You're not the boss of me." 

You may feel that each child is a blessing, but each child who has their childhood taken away from them due to a parent's ego may not agree with you.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

NextTimeAround said:


> You may feel that each child is a blessing, but each child who has their childhood taken away from them due to a parent's ego may not agree with you.


I feel pretty blessed to be alive.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I feel pretty blessed to be alive.


that's good.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

NextTimeAround said:


> yes, they are. Parents should not be having kids with plans the older ones can take care of the younger ones. IOW, giving kids adult responsibilities....... and no authority, ie "You're not the boss of me."
> 
> You may feel that each child is a blessing, but each child who has their childhood taken away from them due to a parent's ego may not agree with you.


Read post #108 kthx


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Both my parents agreed that having me stopped them from divorcing. 
Neither of them wanted custody. 🤔


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Andy1001 said:


> “Hate the sin, love the sinner” is also not a biblical quote despite being bandied around on a daily basis by numerous “Holy” people.
> It was written by Gandhi in 1929.
> A little more recent than people think.


Gandhi was quite the wit also.
For example, his quip when asked what he thought about Western Civilization: "I think it would be a good idea."


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Andy1001 said:


> I told this story before and was suitably chastised by some of the female members of tam. &#55357;&#56835;
> When I was younger I called to collect a date at her house. She told me she wasn’t ready yet but said there were some dishes in her sink and would I wash them and put them away.
> I threw them in her pool.
> How about you Arb, anything happening on the dating front?


*Her name is Sharon, 65, a retired high school mathematics teacher and she lives just two hours west of Aggieland!

We talk and text all the time! And have actually been out together once!

And she is a confirmed Christian!*


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

arbitrator said:


> *Her name is Sharon, 65, a retired high school mathematics teacher and she lives just two hours west of Aggieland!
> 
> We talk and text all the time! And have actually been out together once!
> 
> And she is a confirmed Christian!*


The temptation to make a math joke is overwhelming but I’ll resist,lol.
Good luck with Sharon and I hope you find the happiness you deserve.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Andy1001 said:


> The temptation to make a math joke is overwhelming but I’ll resist,lol.
> Good luck with Sharon and I hope you find the happiness you deserve.


*I love jokes, Andy, and so does she!

And I'd even wager that she's probably already heard it!*


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

arbitrator said:


> *I love jokes, Andy, and so does she!
> 
> And I'd even wager that she's probably already heard it!*


You asked for it. 
If you ever propose don’t buy her a polynomial ring. 
I’ve waited years for to use this joke. 😂


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Andy1001 said:


> You asked for it.
> If you ever propose don’t buy her a polynomial ring.
> I’ve waited years for to use this joke. 😂


*I love it!

And she will too!*


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I've personally never understood the need to match up via faith. It's a rather personal thing that shouldn't impact anyone else.


Would you agree marriage is a unique relationship where lives are intertwined and what affects one spouse affects the other?

Faith does impact daily life for many people. For example, household decoration (shrines, holy objects, etc.), what is and is not allowed in the house (pork, booze, porn, etc.), what foods are cooked and eaten and when (feast days and fast days), rituals practiced (house blessings, prayer times, etc), personal availability if one spouse is away observing required Holy days, weekends scheduled around worship or volunteer work for place of worship, and on and on.

Not to mention there are things like what birth control is allowed, if any, and what is and is not ok to practice sexually.

Then we have tithing.

And, of course, it's sometimes difficult to attend worship among couples while you're alone wondering if your spouse will make it to heaven.

And kids! Every parent who believes wants their kids to also believe. It's about the immortal soul. We know that kids raised by spouses who practice different religions tend to have no religion. Who wants to risk their future kids immortal souls?

Why add to the stress of life by marrying outside of your faith when you can instead have someone share your life fully believing and living as you do?


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

MJJEAN said:


> Would you agree marriage is a unique relationship where lives are intertwined and what affects one spouse affects the other?
> 
> Faith does impact daily life for many people. For example, household decoration (shrines, holy objects, etc.), what is and is not allowed in the house (pork, booze, porn, etc.), what foods are cooked and eaten and when (feast days and fast days), rituals practiced (house blessings, prayer times, etc), personal availability if one spouse is away observing required Holy days, weekends scheduled around worship or volunteer work for place of worship, and on and on.
> 
> ...


I understand people's reasons and motivations on this front fully. I simply stated I 'personally' don't understand it. I know for a fact if I told you my beliefs, you wouldn't personally understand them, and that's fine. :smile2:


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

CraigBesuden said:


> “For as long as I can remember, I dreamed of having a large family. Five, six, seven, eight children — it didn’t matter; I was prepared to take as many children as God sent me. There was just one problem: My 20s came and went without God sending me a husband.
> 
> “Another decade passed, and with my single status unchanged, reality set in. There would be no eight babies. Nor would there be five babies.“
> 
> God will send a single woman a husband right after he sends me the winning Powerball ticket.


Actually I know that God found me the husband I wanted and needed. He was everything I asked Him for. God is an amazing match maker if we let Him be.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

[email protected] said:


> Religious or secular, women tend to be attracted to money, power, status, or some combination of the three. Most simply are not attracted to males without at least one of the three attributes.


That's just not true for most Christian women I know.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> Arb, some women get suspicious of men who advertise their faith. It seems the ones who bang the drum the loudest turn out to be the biggest hypocrites. They are just wary.


I am doubtful that is true. There are many good godly men out there.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I've personally never understood the need to match up via faith. It's a rather personal thing that shouldn't impact anyone else. It's your own relationship with God. Similarly to how you can have great friends of all different belief systems. I dont see why the same can't be said for a partner.
> 
> Obviously if it's important to you to match on that level, by all means go for it.
> 
> I say all this as a believer in God, but not a follower of any religion. Maybe that's the difference. I'm not really a fan of being told what types of relationships I'm supposed to have. Especially my relationship with God. Seems rather disingenuous to base your relationships off of anything but how you actually think and feel. I think perhaps that's more a product of man than it is of God. But that's just my interpretation.


Having been married to a man with no faith and now a man with a strong Christian faith, the difference to me, as a Christian is immense. God in His wisdom even tells us not to be unequally yoked. I have Christian friend whose husbands aren't Christians and they find it so hard not being able to share their faith with them. 
Having non Christian friends is very different from being married to one.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

OnTheFly said:


> Yeah, I agree, logical and common sensical.
> 
> But, as a Christian, I would still follow the command of the Bible, as I did 1/4 century ago. It surely reduced my available pool of eligible ladies, and it hasn't been bliss the entire time, but it's an easy command to follow. And if I found myself widowed, I'd do it again.
> 
> I hope I'm not giving the impression that I'm arguing with you.


Same here, being in the UK where only 5% go to church and far more of them are female, my pool of available men was almost nil. I wasn't going to compromise though.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

DTO said:


> That's interesting. I've heard the opposite - that men tend to outnumber women on OLD sites and women have lots on indications of interest. Now this might not translate to finding a good long-term relationship partner, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's awful for women.


I was on British Christian dating sites and a few international ones, all were about 3 or 4 women to one man. Not quite so bad in the younger age groups, but certainly gets worse as you pass 35-40. 
All of the churches I have been to have had many single women but hardly any single men. Its a massive problem here.


----------



## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” Isaiah 45:7 (KJV)


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## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Why do you believe a man or woman of faith can't be world-wide, to use that term, or pick a synonym?


My point was more along the lines of the enormous amount of expectation up front. It's almost as if they have to be a "dream man" in order to be considered. In the age group these ladies are looking in, even most secular men are not "worldly"

We all gain experience as we age.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

Diana7 said:


> I have Christian friend whose husbands aren't Christians and they find it so hard not being able to share their faith with them.


But they are sharing their faith. 

*1 Peter 3:1,2

1) Likewise you wives, be submissive to your own husbands, so that if any do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, 2) as they see the purity and reverence of your lives. *


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

CraigBesuden said:


> God will send a single woman a husband right after he sends me the winning Powerball ticket.


Yeah, it's surprising that women will put substantial effort into getting an education, building a career, decorating a house, etc. because obviously all take work, but feel that investing in a relationship is a waste of time or that good, commitment-minded men are just there for the having whenever it's convenient.

And it's sad to see a women realize that she let a really good guy get away and now finds herself alone and stuck in a sea of mediocrity (or worse).

Both have happened to ladies I know.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

DTO said:


> Yeah, it's surprising that women will put substantial effort into getting an education, building a career, decorating a house, etc. because obviously all take work, but feel that investing in a relationship is a waste of time or that good, commitment-minded men are just there for the having whenever it's convenient.
> 
> And it's sad to see a women realize that she let a really good guy get away and now finds herself alone and stuck in a sea of mediocrity (or worse).
> 
> Both have happened to ladies I know.


We're taught a few things:

If you're marriage minded, don't show it. It looks desperate.

But also, on some of these message boards for women dating, there is the you go girl attitude that there are a whole bunch of elgible men just around the corner.

I do agree that being single is better than being in a bad relationship, but this attitude is usually about men who don't meet all the requirements.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Theres more than enough women of all types.
> 
> My belief, the issue is people expect perfection. Every damn thing is a deal breaker. Just look at this site! Someone could come on here and say they are mad their husband/wife likes to eat spaghetti with a spoon and undoubtedly someone will come on here and say "I would just leave. No way I would put up with that. Why do you allow them to eat spaghetti with spoons? People treat you how you allow them"
> 
> Seems like most people here advocate for others to leave their relationship as opposed to working on or finding a fix. "Just leave, find someone else" is the mantra. Then they sit and complain about not being able to find anyone. Most counselors advocate to split too, which is why I dont trust them. Plus most of them are divorced themselves lol. That's like asking a fat guy for advice about diets.


Excellent point. My feeling is that you need someone attractive (however you define it) with compatible goals, integrity, and a willingness to build with you. Complaining about relatively minor stuff - doesn't make quite enough money, wrong physical attributes (distinct from sloppy or poor hygenie), and so on is just going to prevent happiness.


----------



## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> attheend02 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm finding there are not enough atheist woman.
> ...


I agree. Very nice post!


----------



## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

CraigBesuden said:


> I’d assumed that the problem many secular women face — not enough “eligible” men resulting in women ending up childless —...." "..... - she can’t find someone better than her.”
> 
> Are Catholic and evangelical women having trouble finding guys worth marrying? Enduring a long “season of singleness” waiting for God to send them a husband?


More like issues of hypergamy and decades of P.R. and modern sense of entitlement.

Finally, the Goddess movement is seeping through all of society, all that talk of a husbands "better half" and support for "women's issues" while piling layers of blame, hate, and denigration on men, is finally yielding the predicted harvest. Sow the wind and all that.

Once upon a time it was taught that a woman had to have a husband to be a good woman and get into heaven etc, and everyone looked down on her for not being able to get a man. A lot of marriages seemed to based on her need to fulfill her promise and need to fill her self-image, than to actual care and love that man enough to want to be together permanently. So many marriages seem to be of objects, of her possessing a husband (and children) as part of her status and symbols of her achievement, as opposed to equality and passion. Let me just re:quote "can't find someone better than her".
So much for no judging, for people are equal. She's just out of everyone's league. Why would any person capable of self-control harness themselves to that attitude?? Quality men = mgtow... just like out sistas before us.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> I was on British Christian dating sites and a few international ones, all were about 3 or 4 women to one man. Not quite so bad in the younger age groups, but certainly gets worse as you pass 35-40.
> All of the churches I have been to have had many single women but hardly any single men. Its a massive problem here.


I can see that for a Christian dating site, given what's been posted here about how high the ratio of women to men in church IRL is.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

NextTimeAround said:


> We're taught a few things:
> 
> If you're marriage minded, don't show it. It looks desperate.
> 
> ...


I see.

I wasn't aware of that first concept. And honestly it doesn't make sense. To me, being asked out by a lady, or having a lady say that I'm a quality guy with whom she could see herself building a future, is flattering. Desperate comes into play when you're needy, want an immediate commitment, etc.

The second one I totally agree with. I've seen several women live this out it with my own two eyes and they must have learned it somewhere.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I married into a family that has one super religious sister and brother in law. 

They very much oppose the idea of women working as those women are taking jobs from male breadwinners. And the husband in this couple directly told me that women being able to work = women being able to divorce = a really bad thing. I find this mindset appalling. 

That said, M2 is slowly turning into a man hating person. The stuff that she says to me about men - in our house - if I just reversed the genders and said the same thing at work - I’d be fired for cause - immediately. 

I just took a very deep breath. I will now try to express my point in a constructive and balanced manner:

1. Women say that we in the US live in a rape culture. 
a. Until very recently the US had a backlog of 400,000 untested rape kits. Total cost to process = $400 million = 2 fighter jets = 1/5 of one day of our military budget. Seems like a disgracefully low priority considering that MANY of those rape kits contained the dna of serial rapists.
b. College sexual assault is a very mixed bag of late. Some colleges don’t do justice to the victim, others deprive the accused of any semblance of due process. The MSM is terrible in terms of balance. Remember ‘Mattress Girl’? She carried her mattress to all her classes at Columbia to draw attention to her rape. Turns out she had a FWB relationship and exchanged friendly Facebook messages with her rapist for 5 MONTHS after her alleged assault - before magically concluding that he raped her. There is a movie called ‘The Hunting Ground.’ It is about sexual assault on US colleges. One of the main story lines in the movie - is like mattress girl - except the director of the movie decided that if a woman ‘feels’ violated by you - that matters far more than whether or not you actually touched her. 

So - yes - IMO we do have a rape culture and that is massively messed up. AND we are entering into a world where for some people - the woman’s feelings about what happened are the ONLY thing that matters. The actual physical events - are irrelevant. 

By the way - if I violate the integrity of your person - by force - you can put me in prison for a long time. As it should be. 

But if you go scorched earth on me with a completely fabricated rape accusation - Jackie Coakley - NOTHING happens to you. 

In the spirit of fairness and balance, I’m going to close with a shout out to: Henrietta Swan Leavitt

An unsung giant in the field of astronomy, whose male bosses should have nominated her for a Nobel prize. 

Somehow the golden rule has gotten lost in the modern world. And we are all the lessor for it. 




spotthedeaddog said:


> More like issues of hypergamy and decades of P.R. and modern sense of entitlement.
> 
> Finally, the Goddess movement is seeping through all of society, all that talk of a husbands "better half" and support for "women's issues" while piling layers of blame, hate, and denigration on men, is finally yielding the predicted harvest. Sow the wind and all that.
> 
> ...


----------



## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

DTO said:


> Excellent point. My feeling is that you need someone attractive (however you define it) with compatible goals, integrity, and a willingness to build with you. Complaining about relatively minor stuff - doesn't make quite enough money, wrong physical attributes (distinct from sloppy or poor hygenie), and so on is just going to prevent happiness.


The measure I encourage is what if someone was judging a person of your gender, a friend, or yourself by that measure - a classic Christian style Golden Rule (doing unto others) IIRC.
(Add: heh snap Mem, I had even read your golden rule comment when I put that up).


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

MEM2020 said:


> They very much oppose the idea of women working as those women are taking jobs from male breadwinners. And the husband in this couple directly told me that women being able to work = women being able to divorce = a really bad thing. I find this mindset appalling.


I too find that kind of thing appalling. It creates all sorts of inequality and privilege.
Each party to themselves be true.
Joint account for joint things.
Personal Business or Trust set up for personal/own family things, another for joint property/kids stuff. Keeps the lines clean, keeps the equality clear, and on separation each party has made their own choices over time. Meeting as best as possible as equals, settling issues when they come up. Easy to communicate clear issues of finance and spending.

If you cant do this and think you have communication in your relationship, wrong, think again and make it happen. You'll sleep easier at night - and if you can't sleep because you don't think you can manipulate your partner into dependency/obedience or support/gifts with the separate accounts etc then we've just uncovered the real explosive issue in your relationship.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Spot,

The most amazing thing that I observe in the modern world is this: 
1. Women adamantly claiming that there are as many sexually frustrated wives as husbands
And
2. That women and men are equally abused in marriages

WRT - 2 - 72% of intimate partner homicide victims are women. 
WRT - 1 - Testosterone is the same driver of falsehood for both one and two above.





spotthedeaddog said:


> I too find that kind of thing appalling. It creates all sorts of inequality and privilege.
> Each party to themselves, true.
> Joint account for joint things.
> Personal Business or Trust set up for personal/own family things, another for joint property/kids stuff. Keeps the lines clean, keeps the equality clear, and on separation each party has made their own choices over time. Meeting as best as possible as equals, settling issues when they come up. Easy to communicate clear issues of finance and spending.
> ...


----------



## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

MEM2020 said:


> Spot,
> 
> The most amazing thing that I observe in the modern world is this:
> 1. Women adamantly claiming that there are as many sexually frustrated wives as husbands
> ...


I find it shocking that people complain how annoying male sexual drive is, call masculinity toxic, pour on the hate, then demand men be more effeminate....

...then complain there are no real men anymore...

---
Or want freedom and right to do what they want, part when they want, hookup with no commitment, freedoms to dress as they want, be free from meeting their partners desires
then act surprised when there'a no loyalty or real commitment.

goes for all genders.
Not that they are nrcessarily bad things, just dont be surprised that emancipation = speaking up etc.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Spot,

I can’t say it better than you did - with M2 - I call it payload 




spotthedeaddog said:


> I find it shocking that people complain how annoying male sexual drive is, call masculinity toxic, pour on the hate, then demand men be more effeminate....
> 
> ...then complain there are no real men anymore...
> 
> ...


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

CraigBesuden said:


> I’d assumed that the problem many secular women face — not enough “eligible” men resulting in women ending up childless — would not extend to the religious. But my wife has a cousin turning 25 who is worried that she’s running out of time. Her sister, who is 28, said “she has the same problem I do - she can’t find someone better than her.”
> 
> Are Catholic and evangelical women having trouble finding guys worth marrying? Enduring a long “season of singleness” waiting for God to send them a husband?
> 
> ...





ConanHub said:


> I agree in general that there is a pretty poor selection of men in all walks of life.
> 
> I haven't kept up on the church scene in a long time due to travel but it wouldn't surprise me if the genetic pool.is getting pretty putrid.
> 
> A lot of religious teaching is poisoning men and women regarding what works for men in terms of attraction and success in mating.


The dating scene in the USA was brilliant for me. At 5'10" I am too short, but I was a wealthy, PhD, well read, good shape (I was boxing), British, good looking and rather good with the chat. I could pretty much have my pick. 

Women would complain there were no good men and men that they could not get a woman.

It would suit my ego to go along with the idea that there is a shortage of good men. It would out me in a fine rare group. I do not think that is the case.

I think that women historically, biologically, and culturally have a lot more at stake in a realtionship. It makes sense in that context to find the average man to be below average, so that a man has to be pretty impressive to get up to the level of 'decent'. I do recall that studies seem to confirm this.

In other words, that prudent and in built caution around men means that it is natural to feel there are no decent men around. Were women to be in an environment where men were typically wealthy, PhD, well read, good shape, British, good looking and rather good with the chat;- then I do not think women would be happy. I think I would be a short arse.

Of course, I remember there was historical data that below a certain level of poverty in a community, women will stop taking partners, so there is some absolute aspect.

PS: I am also Catholic. The only time I got lots of attention in the Catholic community in the USA was from the soreity sisters at Harvard. Otherwise, no.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> No, that's just the cynicism talking


One thing seems to differ between cultures and generations is how much responsibilty each bear in the realtionship.


Two generations ago in the UK, the woman was responsible for the relationship. If he did not beat her and kept her fed, he did his bit. The woman was like a tool that had been serviced and should work properly. This was bad for women, but also left men helpless as it denied them half the power in the relationship as it was not their responsibilty.

Of course, individuals differ more, but as a middle aged British man, relationships were the man's responsibility. A failed relationship would be the man's fault and a man saying how lucky he was that is wife was so wonderful would come across as showing off. The woman had been promoted to 'child', but the responsibility lay with the man. This was bad for men, but also left women helpless as it denied them half the power in the relationship as it was not their responsibilty. Certainly, and it is an impression, I became wary of relationships as I would be expected to take sole responsibility for their happiness. "I love you" came to mean, "I rely on you to make me happy and all my unhappiness is your fault".

Going to Scandinavia was a shock. I went to marital counselling with my (American) wife and the counseller told her to start pulling her weight. "Emotional" work that was not related to anything material was no more considered a contribution from her than it would have been from me. British men coming back from relationship counselling in Denmark and raving about how they were listened to is almost a cliche.

I suspect it is different for young people in the USA now. My generation grew up with their Mothers doing the large bulk of the housework, young women now have not. But, I hope, they will also expect to be treated with more equality.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

Mr The Other said:


> I think that women historically, biologically, and culturally have a lot more at stake in a realtionship. It makes sense in that context to find the average man to be below average, so that a man has to be pretty impressive to get up to the level of 'decent'. I do recall that studies seem to confirm this.


Most studies fail to adjust for cultural norms. They'll ask a culturally loaded question, and the result will fall to the cultural norm. They then decide that the result is objective.
So historically, in the aspect that most family value was dependent on the husband (note: farm and battle losses) so prepared marriage of quality was important.

The average vs above average is often a matter of supply and demand. Those who are in demand get to choose, where those who are not in demand, get left out (so go to second, third, etc place)
So not really a biological stake.

That's why I'm rather harsh about those who talk about everyone being equal. Sure no-one is a 3 or a 10, and no-one is below you league-wise, and hypergamy isnt real (despite proof), and no-one makes sure they find a partner "their level or better, regardless of what that choice means looking the other way...*)

(* the original lady is look for a man better than her, but seems to have no reason why a man better than her would accept a lesser wife)


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

spotthedeaddog said:


> Most studies fail to adjust for cultural norms. They'll ask a culturally loaded question, and the result will fall to the cultural norm. Then decide that the result is objective.
> So historically, in the aspect that most family value was dependent on the husband (note: farm and battle losses) so prepared marriage of quality was important.
> 
> The average vs above average is often a matter of supply and demand. Those who are in demand get to choose, where those who are not in demand, get left out (so go to second, third, etc place)
> ...


I agree that I was a great catch as I was above average. Had the standard risen and I was average, I think most women would have seen me as below average and wondered why there were no decent men around.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Religious or secular, women tend to be attracted to money, power, status, or some combination of the three. Most simply are not attracted to males without at least one of the three attributes.




Diana7 said:


> That's just not true for most Christian women I know.


Not saying this as a negative but it is.

Even the observation that another person has a job, car, home, or car, going to college, or HS grad, job, car, etc; that observation is factored into the interest or attraction of said Male as potential relationship pool member. 

The weight given to all factors, and faith, will vary but is there.

Again, this isn't a negative, but reality.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

This was very much my experience.

I'm financially independent, and I never knew how to discuss this early on when asked. I didn't want to lie, so I would tell them I didn't have a job, but I also felt it was none of their business that I didn't work because I didn't have to, so I just let the fact that I didn't have a job stand on it's own. 

For two years, I traveled and worked seasonal jobs. I had no home or car, and I loved it. Men, on the other hand, did not love it. They didn't like it all. But again, I let their experience stand on it's own without explaining too much.

It's also been clear that men prefer women who are younger, and I accept this, as you said, not as a negative, but simply the way things are. The only time that's been a problem for me is when they go on about it, which many of them do. 



Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Not saying this as a negative but it is.
> 
> Even the observation that another person has a *job, car, home*, or car, going to college, or HS grad, job, car, etc; that observation is factored into the interest or attraction of said Male as potential relationship pool member.
> 
> ...


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
> Religious or secular, women tend to be attracted to money, power, status, or some combination of the three. Most simply are not attracted to males without at least one of the three attributes.
> 
> ...


This indicates that the person may be responsible and stable. It does not indicate that the person will become wealthy, powerful or have status. The potential may be there; but, there is no guarantee as there would be if the person were already wealthy, powerful or have status. There is a difference.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

minimalME said:


> It's also been clear that men prefer women who are younger, and I accept this, as you said, not as a negative, but simply the way things are. The only time that's been a problem for me is when they go on about it, which many of them do.


True. There is an amount of energy, innocence (as opposed to being Told by mother) that comes with less experience, and a kind of longevity/endurance that comes with a physically younger person that there is somehow magical "more time to get things done" (from older perspective) or when male (re: *I* was younger) less expectation of foreign holidays and half million dollar houses and that executive job which seemed to come with 30+ year old women, and much less intuitive feeling I was just being used. But I agree, all other things being equal, the young age does seem to be a true factor. (not just myth)


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

@MEM2020

Your statement about M2 becoming a man hater is disturbing me.

What is happening?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

She seems entirely zoomed in on Macbeth, and willfully ignorant of Lady Macbeth. 

She chooses to see “bad” male behavior as happening in a vacuum. 




ConanHub said:


> @MEM2020
> 
> Your statement about M2 becoming a man hater is disturbing me.
> 
> What is happening?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

To be fair ....

Xi Jinping, self promoted to dictator
Putin, same
Ayatollahs are all men
MBS - man
Erdogan - Man
Kim Un - Man
That fellow running India - who claims they had airplanes and advanced biotech 1,000 years ago
And then - well - Trump

Hmmm - maybe she’s onto something.





ConanHub said:


> @MEM2020
> 
> Your statement about M2 becoming a man hater is disturbing me.
> 
> What is happening?


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Blondilocks said:


> This indicates that the person may be responsible and stable. It does not indicate that the person will become wealthy, powerful or have status. The potential may be there; but, there is no guarantee as there would be if the person were already wealthy, powerful or have status. There is a difference.


Well, I'm not sure if women set the standard at "likely to be wealthy" - comfortable for sure, and of course higher (upper-middle class or whatever you call it) would be nice.

That being said, nothing is guaranteed. But having a college degree (especially a graduate / professional degree) is one of the best indicators of future earning potential. It goes beyond responsible and stable to being smart and ambitious enough to get one, attributes that translate well to the workplace. Also, it has other lifestyle implications. If you have a degree you're more likely to be home nights / weekends / holidays and be present with the family, for instance.

Having a home (which I interpret to mean owning as opposed to living on your own) is a huge deal, especially in places where values are high and even well-paid professionals can't manage to get over the hump of buying one. It also goes to finances and lifestyle, not just stability.

Definitely makes sense that having a degree and a home are big deals, even with future uncertainly.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

mathematically speaking . . . . . 49% of men are below average. Everything else is an illusion.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Or it just could be women have been conditioned to believe that they are entitled to a high (or very high) quality man regardless of what they themselves bring to the table. AKA the "Princess Syndrome".



Mr The Other said:


> I think I phrased myself badly.
> 
> Many men (my impression) think women overrate their looks. If a woman is of average attractiveness, I think she generally knows it. But, with caveats. Her impression of herself takes a few years to develop and is out of date (beautiful 21 year old women might desperately try to impress you, thrity year old women generally know better). Also, she will see an average man as below average.
> 
> ...


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Mr. Nail said:


> mathematically speaking . . . . . 49% of men are below average. Everything else is an illusion.


Precisely. And that women find 80% of guys to be below average (comes from an ******* survey) means either they don't know what is average (unlikely with all the media and data out there) or "below average" really means "not someone I can see spending my time with".

And the survey data shows women wind up reaching out to most of that 80% anyways. That means women perceive themselves as "settling" for the perceived poor selection of men out there, setting the stage for long-term dissatisfaction. Can you be happy with a guy you feel never really was at your level (unless your view on the importance of looks changes, or you become self-aware enough to realize that maybe you weren't such a great catch yourself)?

Seems like the only solution is to focus not so much on how a guy looks or what he has / is likely to have, and more on how he treats you, responsibility / maturity, and other attributes he can control.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Lila said:


> I think you are giving men too much of a break. The ok Cupid study had two specific findings: 1) women have higher standards for physical beauty than men and 2) the vast majority of men are interested in only the most beautiful women. In short, average men are just as guilty as average women for any lack of success they may experience when dating.


Hmmm, not quite. That survey showed that men's ratings on the attractiveness of women is a bell curve; 50% are below average and 50% are above. So while men might initially hit on the best looking women, I'd reason that eventually they will set their sights more realistically and be happy with their choices. Or as someone else put it earlier, men have fewer problems finding someone who's an acceptable partner.

OTOH, thinking most men are below average yet chasing them anyways sets a lady up for long-term disappointment.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

DTO said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> > I think you are giving men too much of a break. The ok Cupid study had two specific findings: 1) women have higher standards for physical beauty than men and 2) the vast majority of men are interested in only the most beautiful women. In short, average men are just as guilty as average women for any lack of success they may experience when dating.
> ...



No, the study specifically found that although the men surveyed found women's attractiveness along the bell curve, they predominantly focused their messages to only the top 25-30% of women. 

They didn't study whether men eventually gave up chasing the top women and "settled" for the less attractive women nor did they study whether these guys who settled were happy having done so. That's all supposition. 

In my experience, being back in the dating world, just as many men as women have issues finding an acceptable partner. Few want to settle and everyone feels they are entitled to the best. It's a universal issue not specific to men or women.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

DTO said:


> Mr. Nail said:
> 
> 
> > mathematically speaking . . . . . 49% of men are below average. Everything else is an illusion.
> ...


The ok Cupid study was based solely using pictures to gauge attractiveness. Not their written profile. Not any real time interactions. Men are notorious for taking horrible, unflattering pictures. Flip through some online dating profiles and you'll understand what I mean. I have to agree that 75% of the photos I see on dating profiles are below average however that doesn't translate to the real world. I'm sure if there was a study done where women gauged attractiveness based on real world interactions, you'd find a bell curve too. 

I think if we're going to tell women to "focus not so much on how a guy looks or what he has / is likely to have, and more on how he treats you, responsibility / maturity, and other attributes he can control", then we probably need to be telling guys to focus not so much on a woman's physical appearance but on how she treats you, her responsibility/ maturity, and other attributes she can control.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Lila said:


> I think if we're going to tell women to "focus not so much on how a guy looks or what he has / is likely to have, and more on how he treats you, responsibility / maturity, and other attributes he can control", then we probably need to be telling guys to focus not so much on a woman's physical appearance but on how she treats you, her responsibility/ maturity, and other attributes she can control.


Completely agree that men would do well to follow these guidelines too.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

DTO said:


> Or it just could be women have been conditioned to believe that they are entitled to a high (or very high) quality man regardless of what they themselves bring to the table. AKA the "Princess Syndrome".





DTO said:


> Precisely. And that women find 80% of guys to be below average (comes from an ******* survey) means either they don't know what is average (unlikely with all the media and data out there) or "below average" really means "not someone I can see spending my time with".
> 
> And the survey data shows women wind up reaching out to most of that 80% anyways. That means women perceive themselves as "settling" for the perceived poor selection of men out there, setting the stage for long-term dissatisfaction. Can you be happy with a guy you feel never really was at your level (unless your view on the importance of looks changes, or you become self-aware enough to realize that maybe you weren't such a great catch yourself)?
> 
> Seems like the only solution is to focus not so much on how a guy looks or what he has / is likely to have, and more on how he treats you, responsibility / maturity, and other attributes he can control.





Lila said:


> I think you are giving men too much of a break. The ok Cupid study had two specific findings: 1) women have higher standards for physical beauty than men and 2) the vast majority of men are interested in only the most beautiful women. In short, average men are just as guilty as average women for any lack of success they may experience when dating.


So, I am being too easy on men and too easy on women!

Firstly, when I say average I am not saying "good enough". That is another matter. 

In the perceptions study, which I only cite as it backs up my impressions, it does not assess who women think is "good enough", only how impressive they are relatively. It might be all the women thought all the men were suitable partners and most men out there are even better. 

And, hte internet and apps are visual media. To complain that the opposite sex are not bonding meaningfully over a internet profile ignores the role and charm and an emotional bond IRL can form.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> I'll be frank....when a woman says that 75% of men are below average, unless she is Jassica Alba or Charlize Theron, I roll my eyes.
> 
> I'd say......maybe 15% of the men I know are "below average," many are in the average curve, probably at least 30% are definitely above average, and only about 3% are the kind I want to roll my eyes and b-slap while laughing.


I would say roughly a third are below average. Roughly a third are aroud average, and roughly a third are above. 

The Princess aspect only comes when only the best is good enough.

In CA, many women thought I was being very precious. But, then, I found partners and they did not. 

I think there is a genuine skewing of perception. Were I given the option that all women would look as beautiful as Jessica Alba or Charlize Theron do to me know, I would take that option and live in a world of beautiful women. Then danger would be that I would not be fussy enough, all the women would be able to charm me. 

If I perceived women as far less attractive than they objectively are, I would be far more immune to their charms. This would make my romantic life far worse, but save me from the hypothetical risk of death in pregnancy to someone not worth it.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Blondilocks said:


> This indicates that the person may be responsible and stable. It does not indicate that the person will become wealthy, powerful or have status. The potential may be there; but, there is no guarantee as there would be if the person were already wealthy, powerful or have status. There is a difference.


No sh!! there's a difference. 

Nothing was included that says "here's a guarantee that xx will be a captain of industry some day".

So what in the heck is the point of your post?

Is there something else you're trying to imply or bring up passive-aggressively?

What are you trying to say? Are you trying to cast negatives or shady aspersions on someone, anyone, any group??

Say what you're saying if there's a point somewhere.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Blondilocks said:
> 
> 
> > This indicates that the person may be responsible and stable. It does not indicate that the person will become wealthy, powerful or have status. The potential may be there; but, there is no guarantee as there would be if the person were already wealthy, powerful or have status. There is a difference.
> ...


 Following the posts in context, I took her post to mean that just because a woman inquires about whether a man has a job does not mean she is a gold digger or must have money and power. These are just basic questions to ascertain someone's motivation and responsibility in life. She was responding to a post that implied that when a woman asks if a man has a job she is somehow attracted to extreme wealth and power. Which of course is a ridiculous extreme. I would help a man would ask if a woman has a job as well. No one wants to marry a lazy bum who sits around the house playing sky rim all day lol


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> Following the posts in context, I took her post to mean that just because a woman inquires about whether a man has a job does not mean she is a gold digger or must have money and power. These are just basic questions to ascertain someone's motivation and responsibility in life.
> 
> She was responding to a post that implied that when a woman asks if a man has a job she is somehow attracted to extreme wealth and power. Which of course is a ridiculous extreme. I would help a man would ask if a woman has a job as well. No one wants to marry a lazy bum who sits around the house playing sky rim all day lol


Thanks.

Your first two sentences cleared it up for me.

If your first sentence was the crux of her intent then my apologies to @Blondilocks. I'm not sure it was her whole meaning but I'll go with it.

Maybe I'm just cranky this morning.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Your first two sentences cleared it up for me.
> 
> ...


Maybe it's PMS......

(runs and hides while laughing and dodging lightning)


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> Maybe it's PMS......
> 
> (runs and hides while laughing and dodging lightning)


Ok, now that's funny. 

But two thoughts got away from me at first. Somewhere, there are two burnt spots on the globe from the first couple microseconds reaction. 

🙄 😉😉


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

It's the heat, I tell ya. Calm the **** down, people.


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## Curse of Millhaven (Feb 16, 2013)

I don’t have much to share on the OP, sorry. I am a Christian (though I do not belong to an organized religion and just follow my own disorganized faith), and my first partner was an atheist and my husband is a Christian. 

I love being able to share my faith with my husband and when we discuss the Bible or Christ, I feel real communion and power in that. But if I’m ever single again, I would be open to dating someone of a different faith or belief system. I would never convert because I’ll always believe Jesus is my Savior, but I would be interested in and respectful of my partner’s faith.

Mostly, I'm writing here because I want to reply to this post because I can’t not respond to it...



Lila said:


> I am an ugly woman


This is simply not true, Lila. You are many things, but ugly is not one of them. I wish I could sway you in this and hold up an honest mirror in front of you so that you could truly see the attractive, smart, incredible woman reflected there, instead of the distorted inaccurate image you have of yourself.

I don’t want to make you uncomfortable, but I just couldn’t let this negative comment go unchallenged. You’re beautiful not only physically, but perhaps more importantly, internally. I hope one day you agree with me.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

DTO said:


> Precisely. And that women find 80% of guys to be below average (comes from an ******* survey) means either they don't know what is average (unlikely with all the media and data out there) or "below average" really means "not someone I can see spending my time with".


Isn’t it possible that 50% of American men are below the American median (below average), but that 80% of men on ******* are below average? Couldn’t ******* be a weak pool?

In any case, if women care that much about looks, stop claiming that all they care about is money (and good husband/father qualities). Start dieting and hit the gym. Improve your clothing, hair and hygiene. Become a guy who looks “above average” to them.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

CraigBesuden said:


> DTO said:
> 
> 
> > Precisely. And that women find 80% of guys to be below average (comes from an ******* survey) means either they don't know what is average (unlikely with all the media and data out there) or "below average" really means "not someone I can see spending my time with".
> ...


 I have wondered about that as well. I hear mixed opinions on whether paid sites are better than free sites. I don't know much about OK Cupid except that it is free. I have heard from several friends, however, that plenty of fish is like scraping the bottom of the barrel lol. So I have no idea. I would think that only using sites that are free would mean you would be exposed to more creeps because creeps might not want to pay? And that would go for both genders.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Truth.



Curse of Millhaven said:


> Mostly, I'm writing here because I want to reply to this post because I can’t not respond to it...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

I haven't used/been on a dating site in about a year. When I was using them, I would alternate mostly between OK Cupid and Match. 

I did sign up for Eharmony, which was the most expensive, had the highest standards (required a copy of my divorce documents), and they were the absolute worst. I tried to get my money back, and they refused. I'd never, ever recommend them.

OK Cupid was really fun around 2010. They had a forum, they had games. They had lots of different ways to communicate with people, and it was international. Over the years the owners ruined it. They took away all the enjoyable things, made it basically impossible to communicate with others unless it was direct messaging. And they started charging just to see who viewed your profile.

When I first started using it, it was great. I made male friends that I still communicate with. 

In terms of the men available, I found the users to be more on the artistic side, as compared with Match, who seemed to be more white collar business professionals.

And it was completely free. But, I didn't get the impression that the men were of 'lesser status' than Match. They were just a different segment of the population. 

All the men I interacted with, I found attractive - from their photos. Meeting them was different because I got the whole person - voice, mannerisms, and, of course, I began to learn who they actually were as people.

For me, it's hard to come across physically unattractive men, unless they're grossly overweight. That's the thing I notice first. That and height.

It was usually their personality/behavior that I'd ended up finding unattractive.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

minimalME said:


> For me, it's hard to come across physically unattractive men, unless they're grossly overweight. That's the thing I notice first. That and *height.*


Ever come across this guy on the dating sites?






(@1:22min....voice in background, ''OMG, I just wanted bagels!''


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Lila said:


> Maybe I missed a post but I thought you were saying that unless a woman looks like Charlize Theron or Jessica Alba that their opinion that 75% of men are below average should not be taken seriously. * I am an ugly woman* but I can tell you in a nanosecond whether I find a man physically attractive. I agree with the studies that 75% of photographs of the men on dating sites were below average. Those numbers change a lot when comparing men in real life. I think about 60% are average and 15% are above average.
> 
> There are plenty of eligible men (and women) but our dating culture is making it almost impossible for the average schmoe or schmoette to meet. I can also attest to the fact that if a woman is looking for a Christian man, she's going to have to be open minded on a whole lot of other things.


Ok, finally tracked down this post. You know this is absurd. I'll bet there are some guys on here spanking the monkey just from looking at your avatar. If so, guys, STOP that! She's a mod so show her some respect.

I'm not going to try to pump you up because you don't need it. All you need to do is look in the mirror and then take a good look at your female peers. I guarantee you that you have a leg or two up on them.

Go forth and conquer!!!


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

:rofl:

My ex-husband was 6'4", and I'm more comfortable with someone closer to my height, which is 5'4". But I'd still need at least that one or two inches. I prefer looking up rather than down. 



OnTheFly said:


> Ever come across this guy on the dating sites?


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

OnTheFly said:


> Ever come across this guy on the dating sites?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOlDfcWmsug
> 
> (@1:22min....voice in background, ''OMG, I just wanted bagels!''


So, how tall was the midget?:grin2:


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

Blondilocks said:


> So, how tall was the midget?:grin2:


I think he said 5'0''....but he's feisty!


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

He seemed quite tiny - and angry! Which is a shame, because if he was light-hearted and funny, he'd probably have a much better time of it. 



Blondilocks said:


> So, how tall was the midget?:grin2:


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

:rofl::rofl::rofl:



OnTheFly said:


> I think he said 5'0''....*but he's feisty*!


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

minimalME said:


> He seemed quite tiny - and angry! Which is a shame, because if he was light-hearted and funny, he'd probably have a much better time of it.


He'd have an easier time getting a date if he forewent the bagel and got his waist circumference smaller than his height.

Yeah; tiny, angry, balding and fat don't cut it.>


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

When I was cat sitting on Long Island, fresh bagels and salmon cream cheese were my doom. :surprise:



Blondilocks said:


> He'd have an easier time getting a date if he forewent the bagel and got his waist circumference smaller than his height.
> 
> Yeah; tiny, angry, balding and fat don't cut it.>


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

minimalME said:


> When I was *cat sitting *on Long Island, fresh bagels and salmon cream cheese were my doom. :surprise:


The cat probably didn't appreciate it, either.:grin2:


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

OnTheFly said:


> Ever come across this guy on the dating sites?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOlDfcWmsug
> 
> (@1:22min....voice in background, ''OMG, I just wanted bagels!''


Holy poop stick!!!!

What a nut!

If I was 5 feet tall, I would still have developed muscles and shoulders much broader than my waste.

I would date short ladies and taller ones that didn't mind my height.

I'm 5'10" but dated attractive women who were up to 4" taller than me.

Dude should hit the gym more than he hits the donut shop and grow a personality.

I thought it was hilarious that he was getting in everyone's face and challenging them until someone clobbered him.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

CraigBesuden said:


> Isn’t it possible that 50% of American men are below the American median (below average), but that 80% of men on ******* are below average? Couldn’t ******* be a weak pool?


I guess that's possible, but that would mean a really serious deviation from the population in general. Usually, the larger the sample size (here, the number of men on POF), the lower the potential for those kinds of deviations to occur, and POF seems to be one of the larger sites.

Of course, we don't know how the women who responded to the survey were selected, so that's another variable. Maybe there's something about them that makes them look at physical beauty differently than women in general.



CraigBesuden said:


> In any case, if women care that much about looks, stop claiming that all they care about is money (and good husband/father qualities). Start dieting and hit the gym. Improve your clothing, hair and hygiene. Become a guy who looks “above average” to them.


In my experience women aren't hugely worried about looks; you don't have to be model-handsome or buffed to get interest. The qualifier is I (a single dad in his 40s) am well past the point of choosing a lady based primarily on appearance, and that likely means the women I'd target feel the same way. Also, while I am overweight (but recently lost 25 lbs - yes!!) I still make the best of what I have. I don't go around sloppy or smelly - ever. And I'm heavy but not gross, if that makes sense.

It seems that you either have to be pretty bad, or not have much else to offer, to not get interest.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

personofinterest said:


> I have wondered about that as well. I hear mixed opinions on whether paid sites are better than free sites. I don't know much about OK Cupid except that it is free. I have heard from several friends, however, that plenty of fish is like scraping the bottom of the barrel lol. So I have no idea. I would think that only using sites that are free would mean you would be exposed to more creeps because creeps might not want to pay? And that would go for both genders.


I've heard that paid sites are far better for actually finding someone. Free sites mean you have no skin in the game - you could be doing it out of boredom or just for kicks (in other words, no commitment to finding a date).

I've done both and found the paid ones to yield far better results. Also, for those that offer you to at least create a profile for free, I refused to contact ladies who couldn't be bothered to pay to belong.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

minimalME said:


> It's also been clear that men prefer women who are younger, and I accept this, as you said, not as a negative, but simply the way things are. The only time that's been a problem for me is when they go on about it, which many of them do.


On this topic, it seems to go both ways - many women seem to prefer older men as well. That was an interesting observation to me, and it points to something that men could improve to see better results in dating.

A guy will appear relatively less physically attractive to a lady who is 10 years (or more) his junior. So, clearly, looks aren't the only thing (or perhaps even the main thing) upon which a good chunk of women consider when assessing a man's attractiveness. Career, education, manners, stability, maturity - there's lots of factors there that a guy can control and enhance to help himself stand out among other men.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

That's true. 

I prefer my peers (early 50s) - or someone only a tad bit older. The older I become, the more reluctant I'm going to be to get involved with a man who's 10 to 20 years older. 




DTO said:


> On this topic, it seems to go both ways - many women seem to prefer older men as well. That was an interesting observation to me, and it points to something that men could improve to see better results in dating.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> I have wondered about that as well. I hear mixed opinions on whether paid sites are better than free sites. I don't know much about OK Cupid except that it is free. I have heard from several friends, however, that plenty of fish is like scraping the bottom of the barrel lol. So I have no idea. I would think that only using sites that are free would mean you would be exposed to more creeps because creeps might not want to pay? And that would go for both genders.


IT is just one survey.

If the opposite were true, men would be wondering where all the decent women are and many women would be a bit desperate and unable to find someone.

If it is true, women would be wondering where all the decent men are and many men would be a bit desperate and unable to find someone.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

MEM2020 said:


> To be fair ....
> 
> Xi Jinping, self promoted to dictator
> Putin, same
> ...


Did any of them have wives or admiring women who wanted to be with them?

What is worse? The bad guy or the passive aggressive person who likes to act cowardly via proxy and profit from his actions??


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

CraigBesuden said:


> Isn’t it possible that 50% of American men are below the American median (below average), but that 80% of men on ******* are below average? Couldn’t ******* be a weak pool?
> 
> In any case, if women care that much about looks, stop claiming that all they care about is money (and good husband/father qualities). Start dieting and hit the gym. Improve your clothing, hair and hygiene. Become a guy who looks “above average” to them.


Weak pools just need decent quality working filters.

I've heard that the pay sites are better - mostly because if you spend that coin you're far more likely to put effort into doing a decent profile, getting quality pics, and wanting to do more than send **** pics.

But. As mentioned elsewhere, what if you're not willing to spend a small fortune a month on just getting a smaller list - just *want* are those paying investors investing IN. Do they expect marriage prospects? Are they wanting a rich sugar daddy to whom $120+ to drop on random websites is nothing, in the hope they get free foreign holidays? Or is it in place of cheap down payment, on someone who won't charge for sex by the act/hour?

Like most people, and probably OP included, I'm looking for a friend who "gets" me, someone I can look forward to meeting up whenever, and someone who's life lights up a bit just because I'm there with them to share a moment. Whether that's over a meal, a show, a hobby, work project, simple night in, or something more exotic. Preferably someone who won't body freeze and freak if I throw them a hug or mention a subject I like.

That's why I asked about meet up places on this site - I'm looking for a clued up person, not some starry eyed first-timer, whose going to dump all their expectations on me, and ***** that I don't do what they wanted.

Likewise I've had a couple of young female friends ask where to meet people in town. They're 24 years younger than me, but have been through some relationships like most of us here. But they got sick of **** pics, fat boys (not just overweight, but self indulgent demanding children), control freaks, and out-and-out weirdos. They're also working late shift/student, so a $50/month/site isn't a option for them either.
We met in martial arts, and all the guys and some of the girls fall for them, but there's a real issue of not wanting to be predatory towards students, or members of a social club if you're an organiser. such things actually end up in the papers around here as as part of the "power imbalance" between organisers and new members/become political issues that split the groups apart.

Are the free sites just missing some filter options?

Has the "power imbalance" rhetoric gone too far?

How did the human race ever stay together long enough to reproduce and exist?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Perhaps these women who are limiting themselves to Christian men should broaden their horizons. Most of the studies that I've read indicate that secular and religious people lead remarkably similar lives in that they all suffer from the same failings at pretty much the same rates. Hell, atheists commit crimes are rates lower than their representation in society.

Operationally, it doesn't seem that there is much real difference between the two except for one core belief. What is that selectivity buying you?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Cletus said:


> Perhaps these women who are limiting themselves to Christian men should broaden their horizons. *Most of the studies that I've read indicate that secular and religious people lead remarkably similar lives in that they all suffer from the same failings at pretty much the same rates.* Hell, atheists commit crimes are rates lower than their representation in society.
> 
> Operationally, it doesn't seem that there is much real difference between the two except for one core belief. *What is that selectivity buying you?*


Could it be that although they lead similar lives, their core beliefs structure makes it impossible to sustain a long term relationship? For example, discussions on social issues like gay marriage, abortion, capital punishment, etc...


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Lila said:


> Could it be that although they lead similar lives, their core beliefs structure makes it impossible to sustain a long term relationship? For example, discussions on social issues like gay marriage, abortion, capital punishment, etc...


I think for many Christians it isn't about "any good guy will do." If one attempts to understand Biblical Christianity AT ALL, one understands that part of the conviction of many Biblical Christians is to NOT be "unequally yoked." So it's like saying to someone whose job requires a sedan, "Just get a CRV or RAV4, the gas mileage is just as good!"

That isn't the point.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Lila said:


> Could it be that although they lead similar lives, their core beliefs structure makes it impossible to sustain a long term relationship? For example, discussions on social issues like gay marriage, abortion, capital punishment, etc...


Are there not Christians who believe in gay marriage, who tolerate abortion, and who dislike capital punishment? 

Does gay marriage affect yours?
Can one agree to disagree on things that do not directly impact your actual life? Or, to put it another way, does your belief (or lack) in the holographic principle impact your marriage? 

Are not the truly important things how you treat your mate, how you live your life, what kind of person you actually are? Ok, if spending half the day in church on Sunday is incredibly important to you, then you'll need to find an accomodating spouse or it's a deal breaker. If finding a good person is more your goal, then you might be artificially reducing your dating pool. 

My son is an atheist, and one of the most moral people I know, who thinks gay marriage is a fine thing - just not for him. A girl could do a lot worse in the world when it comes to actually living day-to-day with someone who will do the things required of a good husband. 

I can't tell anyone what they should or should not value, only point out that what they value might not lead to the real outcome they desire.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

NextTimeAround said:


> That makes sense. They're trying get satisfied in one place while appear virginal in another.
> 
> 
> 
> i read that some women maintain their virginity by engaging in anal sex/



I can confirm.

My buddy went to a Catholic school. Those girls were wild. And the things they would do and consider themselves virgins were even more wild.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Marduk said:


> I can confirm.
> 
> My buddy went to a Catholic school. Those girls were wild. And the things they would do and consider themselves virgins were even more wild.


I remember being a chaperone for a youth trip in my 20's. The EIGHTH GRADE girls in my room asked me if they would still be virgins if they had oral sex. I told them that when God talked about purity and abstaining from sex until marriage, He was talking about more than one act. That there was also the matter of the heart. i remember asking them, "If your desire is to see how close you can get to the line without going over, can you truly say that your desire is to honor God?"

I had friends and dated a few guys who had that "anything but PIV is okay" thought process. Most of them ended up having PIV anyway at some point because when you play that close to the fire, you usually get burned. I had a great Sunday School teacher that was sex-positive. She talked about how it was God's gift and enjoyable, etc. She also said that we should remember that anything we choose to do prior to marriage is something that will NOT be an intimacy we can say we only shared with our future husbands someday. I thought that was wise. It made me want to be even more careful so that on my wedding night, I could give my husband ALL of me.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Fozzy said:


> I wonder if it's just a question of math. These women are limiting their options to a small pool of guys (church-goers) and looking for the suave ones to swoop them up.



I agree. I wonder if this is really any different than women that only date men over 6 feet (which limits something like 80% of the pool of available men), or men that only date women in their mid 20’s without children.

You can be as choosy as you want. You should be choosy. But at the end of the day, math always wins, and it’s easy to be so selective that you’ve selected yourself right out of the market. In which case, you have to decide what you value more - being very choosy or being alone. 

Just be ok with your choice in the matter.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Marduk said:


> I agree. I wonder if this is really any different than women that only date men over 6 feet (which limits something like 80% of the pool of available men), or men that only date women in their mid 20’s without children.
> 
> You can be as choosy as you want. You should be choosy. But at the end of the day, math always wins, and it’s easy to be so selective that you’ve selected yourself right out of the market. In which case, you have to decide what you value more - being very choosy or being alone.
> 
> Just be ok with your choice in the matter.


For the Christian who believes that the Bible tells them not to be "unequally yoked," it is vastly different fomer hair color and height. It shouldn't be too hard to understand how nose size or shoe size or height is different from the belief on which someone builds their lives.

It is interesting to me that so many people are arguing against a Christian woman wanting to marry a Christian man, especially since most of the people who seem so bothered by it would never think to marry a devout Christian themselves.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Lila said:


> Could it be that although they lead similar lives, their core beliefs structure makes it impossible to sustain a long term relationship? For example, discussions on social issues like gay marriage, abortion, capital punishment, etc...



I get it, but I also don’t get it.

I was at a buddy’s house one time years ago, and the subject of gay marriage came up. He disagreed with it but didn’t care if people did it, she agreed with it and cared very much that they disagreed with it. 

It rapidly devolved into her calling him a neanderthal, and we left. But before we did, I turned to my wife and asked her thinking on the matter. She thought we should let people do what they want with their own lives. I agreed. She asked what would have happened if I disagreed. I said I wouldn’t care, her beliefs are her own business, as long as she respects me and the rest of humanity. She said the same thing.

It wouldn’t have caused a fight with us at all. For them, it caused a massive fight.

I find these things endlessly fascinating.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> For the Christian who believes that the Bible tells them not to be "unequally yoked," it is vastly different fomer hair color and height. It shouldn't be too hard to understand how nose size or shoe size or height is different from the belief on which someone builds their lives.
> 
> It is interesting to me that so many people are arguing against a Christian woman wanting to marry a Christian man, especially since most of the people who seem so bothered by it would never think to marry a devout Christian themselves.


I can see some serious challenges and problems with the availability of Christian men who fit the bill for marriage.

I'm definitely understanding about the plight these ladies find themselves in but I'm not for them going against their faith.

I'm honestly discouraged by the overall selection of men these days anyway. Some regions seem to be better stocked with XY combos that aren't a disgrace.

The greater Puget Sound area seems to be severely lacking.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Marduk said:


> I get it, but I also don’t get it.
> 
> I was at a buddy’s house one time years ago, and the subject of gay marriage came up. He disagreed with it but didn’t care if people did it, she agreed with it and cared very much that they disagreed with it.
> 
> ...


Weird stuff. Mrs. C and I differ on some issues to degrees but not like the couple you illustrated.

We sometimes get frustrated with each other but not enough to really fight or name-call over.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> For the Christian who believes that the Bible tells them not to be "unequally yoked," it is vastly different fomer hair color and height. It shouldn't be too hard to understand how nose size or shoe size or height is different from the belief on which someone builds their lives.
> 
> *It is interesting to me that so many people are arguing against a Christian woman wanting to marry a Christian man, especially since most of the people who seem so bothered by it would never think to marry a devout Christian themselves.*


*

*

It is just the thought of rejection or exclusion - ego.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> I can see some serious challenges and problems with the availability of Christian men who fit the bill for marriage.
> 
> I'm definitely understanding about the plight these ladies find themselves in but I'm not for them going against their faith.
> 
> ...


What I see is a lot of Christian women who expect the Christian man to come in the "Christian Bale" package. Faith matters according to the Bible. Bank account and squareness of jaw don't. I know quite a few really good, hard-working single Christian men. The problem is, they aren't going to be on the cover of GQ, and they aren't going to pull in 100K. Some of them are stereotypically average or a little below average looking, some are blue collar with no degree, they aren't necessarily suave, though they are good and kind and finny and hard-working. And these aren't "beta boys" either (I hate that term). They are masculine men in a positive way IMO.

BUt too many women want the "godly man" to also look like the god Adonis. They need to check their priorities. Plus, if they are in their 20's they don;t really KNOW what they are getting in looks and shape anyway.

My husband is HOT. I mean objectively hot. I married above my league lol. Broad shoulders, fit but not bulgy, nice scruff, and those eyes.....

Wait, what were we talking about? 

But in high school and in his 20's he was very scrawny with a pornstashe. lol

So the women who dismiss the 25 year old nerd might be shocked when he turns into Jensen Ackles somewhere in his 4os lol


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> What I see is a lot of Christian women who expect the Christian man to come in the "Christian Bale" package. Faith matters according to the Bible. Bank account and squareness of jaw don't. I know quite a few really good, hard-working single Christian men. The problem is, they aren't going to be on the cover of GQ, and they aren't going to pull in 100K. Some of them are stereotypically average or a little below average looking, some are blue collar with no degree, they aren't necessarily suave, though they are good and kind and finny and hard-working. And these aren't "beta boys" either (I hate that term). They are masculine men in a positive way IMO.
> 
> BUt too many women want the "godly man" to also look like the god Adonis. They need to check their priorities. Plus, if they are in their 20's they don;t really KNOW what they are getting in looks and shape anyway.
> 
> ...


I see that side of it as well. I'm harder on men, generally, and the men you describe need to have confidence and maybe enough strength to let the ladies know it.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> I see that side of it as well. I'm harder on men, generally, and the men you describe need to have confidence and maybe enough strength to let the ladies know it.


That's funny because I tend to be harder on women, though a select few posters would argue that point lol.

I'm an old coot who has been here more than half a century. I have a pretty good understanding of which items on the checklist last and matter over the long haul and which ones really don't. So I get frustrated with the "fairy tale" addicts lol


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

personofinterest said:


> For the Christian who believes that the Bible tells them not to be "unequally yoked," it is vastly different fomer hair color and height. It shouldn't be too hard to understand how nose size or shoe size or height is different from the belief on which someone builds their lives.
> 
> 
> 
> It is interesting to me that so many people are arguing against a Christian woman wanting to marry a Christian man, especially since most of the people who seem so bothered by it would never think to marry a devout Christian themselves.




I’m not suggesting people don’t limit themselves by whatever they like. At all. 

What I am suggesting is that you need to be aware of the math problem that creates, and either accept it, find a way to influence the math, or soften your expectations.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Marduk said:


> I’m not suggesting people don’t limit themselves by whatever they like. At all.
> 
> What I am suggesting is that you need to be aware of the math problem that creates, and either accept it, find a way to influence the math, or soften your expectations.


Exactly, that makes perfect sense.

If you decide you will only marry a person of your faith who is a virgin and who will allow you to be a SAHM, for example, that is going to seriously limit your choices. So accept that. And if you wail about being single because you also want him to look like Hugh Jackman....you aren't going to get any sympathy from me lol


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> > Could it be that although they lead similar lives, their core beliefs structure makes it impossible to sustain a long term relationship? For example, discussions on social issues like gay marriage, abortion, capital punishment, etc...
> ...


This is what I have experienced. "Equally yoked" are hot button topics with biblical Christian's.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Lila said:


> This is what I have experienced. "Equally yoked" are hot button topics with biblical Christian's.




I’m unfamiliar with the term. What does it mean?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Marduk said:


> I’m unfamiliar with the term. What does it mean?


A Christian shouldn't court or marry a non Christian.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Lila said:


> This is what I have experienced. "Equally yoked" are hot button topics with biblical Christian's.


It makes sense in my mind because the Christian to whom faith is essential and the guiding force of their lives would want to share that core purpose with their spouse. I have dear friends who are atheists, but there are certain things we could never share and identify with together because our belief systems are so different. Doesn't make either of us better. It just IS. I love that I can pray with my husband when my heart is heavy or that we can discuss why we believe X or Y, or I can tell him about how the verses I read in Psalm that morning coincided perfectly with a particular worry I have.

That passage is basically saying that if serving God is the purpose you believe your life is to have, then it just makes sense to become one with someone who shares that purpose.

It's weird to me that this would somehow be offensive.

I mean, would an activist vegan marry a butcher?


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Or become celibate. 

Which I was during 20 years of marriage anyway, but now it's on my own terms.



Marduk said:


> What I am suggesting is that you need to be aware of the math problem that creates, and either *accept it, find a way to influence the math, or soften your expectations.*


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> What I see is a lot of Christian women who expect the Christian man to come in the "Christian Bale" package. Faith matters according to the Bible. Bank account and squareness of jaw don't. I know quite a few really good, hard-working single Christian men. The problem is, they aren't going to be on the cover of GQ, and they aren't going to pull in 100K. Some of them are stereotypically average or a little below average looking, some are blue collar with no degree, they aren't necessarily suave, though they are good and kind and finny and hard-working. And these aren't "beta boys" either (I hate that term). They are masculine men in a positive way IMO.
> 
> BUt too many women want the "godly man" to also look like the god Adonis. They need to check their priorities. Plus, if they are in their 20's they don;t really KNOW what they are getting in looks and shape anyway.
> 
> ...


While I agree with this to a point, the slippery slope potentially leads to settling...which leads us to so many horror stories on this forum. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> I mean, would an activist vegan marry a butcher?


The Vegetarians Who Turned Into Butchers


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Cletus said:


> The Vegetarians Who Turned Into Butchers


That's it! Game over man! Game over!!!>


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Cletus said:


> The Vegetarians Who Turned Into Butchers


Many thanks! That's lovely!


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> That's it! Game over man! Game over!!!>












Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

farsidejunky said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > What I see is a lot of Christian women who expect the Christian man to come in the "Christian Bale" package. Faith matters according to the Bible. Bank account and squareness of jaw don't. I know quite a few really good, hard-working single Christian men. The problem is, they aren't going to be on the cover of GQ, and they aren't going to pull in 100K. Some of them are stereotypically average or a little below average looking, some are blue collar with no degree, they aren't necessarily suave, though they are good and kind and finny and hard-working. And these aren't "beta boys" either (I hate that term). They are masculine men in a positive way IMO.
> ...


Settling is a mindset. Even if I wanted a CPA with brown hair, I could blissful and content with a blond welder if I choose to. And the blond welder would only feel like plan B if he chose to.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

This is just silly. Good grief. Gay marriage doesn't affect me, and women who want Christian husbands isn't hurting anyone here.

Let it go lol


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> This is just silly. Good grief. Gay marriage doesn't affect me, and women who want Christian husbands isn't hurting anyone here.
> 
> Let it go lol


Apology accepted :grin2:


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

ConanHub said:


> A Christian shouldn't court or marry a non Christian.




Why?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Marduk said:


> ConanHub said:
> 
> 
> > A Christian shouldn't court or marry a non Christian.
> ...


Because religious book outlining the tenets of our faith says so

And that is enough reason


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Not to mention that has been answered repeatedly on this thread by several practicing Christians


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Marduk said:


> Why?


Give me a bit and when I get some time, I will go over that tenant of our faith.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

personofinterest said:


> Not to mention that has been answered repeatedly on this thread by several practicing Christians




Apologies if it’s already been answered. I’ll go back and look.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> *What I see is a lot of Christian women who expect the Christian man to come in the "Christian Bale" package. Faith matters according to the Bible. Bank account and squareness of jaw don't. I know quite a few really good, hard-working single Christian men. * The problem is, they aren't going to be on the cover of GQ, and they aren't going to pull in 100K. Some of them are stereotypically average or a little below average looking, some are blue collar with no degree, they aren't necessarily suave, though they are good and kind and finny and hard-working. And these aren't "beta boys" either (I hate that term). They are masculine men in a positive way IMO.
> 
> *BUt too many women want the "godly man" to also look like the god Adonis.* They need to check their priorities. Plus, if they are in their 20's they don;t really KNOW what they are getting in looks and shape anyway.


In all fairness, I think this is less a "Christian Woman" issue and more a social issue and it affects both women and men equally. For example, I see just as many Christian men looking for the Christian woman built like barbie, with the face of a sweet innocent girl next door, the selflessness of Mother Teresa, and the sex drive of a nyphomaniac.....but only for them.  Sadly these are the people (men/women) who end up with deeply emotionally disturbed people.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Lila said:


> In all fairness, I think this is less a "Christian Woman" issue and more a social issue and it affects both women and men equally. For example, I see just as many Christian men looking for the Christian woman built like barbie, with the face of a sweet innocent girl next door, the selflessness of Mother Teresa, and the sex drive of a nyphomaniac.....but only for them.  *Sadly these are the people (men/women) who end up with deeply emotionally disturbed people.*


*
*

A slight tweak: who end up *with/as* deeply emotionally disturbed people. It is true that like attracts like. Or, some would say that water seeks its own level.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Cletus said:


> Perhaps these women who are limiting themselves to Christian men should broaden their horizons. Most of the studies that I've read indicate that secular and religious people lead remarkably similar lives in that they all suffer from the same failings at pretty much the same rates. Hell, atheists commit crimes are rates lower than their representation in society.
> 
> Operationally, it doesn't seem that there is much real difference between the two except for one core belief. *What is that selectivity buying you?*


It's buying the agreement on what to do on Sunday mornings ..... or whenever one's Sabbath is.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Lila said:


> In all fairness, I think this is less a "Christian Woman" issue and more a social issue and it affects both women and men equally. For example, I see just as many Christian men looking for the Christian woman built like barbie, with the face of a sweet innocent girl next door, the selflessness of Mother Teresa, and the sex drive of a nyphomaniac.....but only for them.  Sadly these are the people (men/women) who end up with deeply emotionally disturbed people.



Ya, it’s weird. I’ve talked to some guys that want to marry a virgin and yet end up with a sex maniac.

Contradictory expectations are hard and totally unfair. I can see how women get into a no-win scenario, just like men do.


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## Tony Conrad (Oct 7, 2013)

What a wonderful combination for a wife. A virgin and a sex maniac. When I was looking for a wife (only a christian wife) I prayed for a girl in our church for God to find her a husband. Without me knowing she fell in love with me and in the end the pastor had to reveal it to me. She is now my wife. I wouldn't call her a sex maniac as I always initiate but she always responds once it starts.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Lila said:


> In all fairness, I think this is less a "Christian Woman" issue and more a social issue and it affects both women and men equally. For example, I see just as many Christian men looking for the Christian woman built like barbie, with the face of a sweet innocent girl next door, the selflessness of Mother Teresa, and the sex drive of a nyphomaniac.....but only for them.  Sadly these are the people (men/women) who end up with deeply emotionally disturbed people.


There are lots of Christians who married as virgins who REALLY like sex. :wink2:


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Cletus said:


> Perhaps these women who are limiting themselves to Christian men should broaden their horizons. Most of the studies that I've read indicate that secular and religious people lead remarkably similar lives in that they all suffer from the same failings at pretty much the same rates. Hell, atheists commit crimes are rates lower than their representation in society.
> 
> Operationally, it doesn't seem that there is much real difference between the two except for one core belief. What is that selectivity buying you?


There is a big difference between most of the Christian guys I know and others. 
Initially its their faith in God, plus their moral values, their integrity, honesty, self control and so on. Not saying that non Christians cant have such things or that all Christians behave as they should, but in my experience there are substantial difference in how they live, what they think, how they talk etc. You can often see it here on this forum, the differences between those with a faith and many of those without one.

I was married to a non Christian man for 25 years, and have now been married to a strong Christian man for 14. The difference in having a spouse who shares such a vital part of my life is immense. We can pray together, we share many core values, we can discuss our faith, go to church together, we share moral values,..... so many things. 
So for me yes, it was vital this time that I married a Christian and I wasn't prepared to compromise. OK it did mean that the chances of me ever meeting someone like that was virtually nil, but nothing is impossible to Him. :wink2:

Plus God says not to, and He is VERY wise.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

Marduk said:


> Ya, it’s weird. I’ve talked to some guys that want to marry a virgin and yet end up with a sex maniac.
> 
> Contradictory expectations are hard and totally unfair. I can see how women get into a no-win scenario, just like men do.


I remember in high school, there was a magazine ad. It showed a bodybuilder’s powerful, muscular arms holding a baby gently in his hands. A boy said, “That’s such a contradiction.” But I see no contradiction.

A woman can be a lady in public and a ***** in the bedroom. A man can have a great body, be a nice guy in public and a confident, dominant bad boy in the bedroom. It may not come naturally but it’s doable. Just mentally flip the switch.


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