# How much of a factor was sexual compatibility in selecting your spouse?



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

This is kind of a spin off of the "Spitter" thread where some people said that oral sex was make vs break factor in their partner selection and other people were shocked or even dismayed that a sex act could be a deciding factor on someone's mate selection. 

My question is a bit of the bigger picture. How much was sexual compatibility and sexual traits and characteristics and sexual performance a factor in choosing your spouse?

As compared to the "other" factors and criteria such as education, parental abilities, financial success, moral and religious values, intelligence, sense of humor, approved by Grandma and the family etc etc how much criteria were sexual and how much was the 'other' factors in your decision to marry your spouse? 

Prior to marrying your spouse, had you ever dumped someone due solely or primarily on their lack of sexual compatibility or lack of sexual responsiveness or prowess?

If you are a guy, did you marry the first girl that touched your pee pee or that let you touch her boobies and so you thought all was great? 

If you are a woman did you marry someone because you were sexually active with him and figured that's what you were supposed to do or did he actually get your motor runn'n? 

Did you marry someone that did not get your motor runn'n but he/she seemed like a good mother/father and your family approved? 

In general how much of a factor was sexuality and sexual compatibility a factor and how many check off boxes of requirements were dedicated to sexuality and sexual compatibility?

As this may be a sensitive topic for some, I'll go first and say that sexual compatibility made up a good 85% of the key criteria to marry my spouse. To put it bluntly, she was the hottest and sexiest chick and the most sexually compatible chick that I could still bring home to Mom and have around my friends and family. 

My baseline 'other' requirements were someone that was a sane, sober, self-supporting, law abiding citizen that shared a good portion of my values and life goals and who would be a good life partner, housemate and coparent. 

The other 1,257 other criteria and requirements were all sexual and physical.

And yes before her, there were some very good, decent women that I stopped seeing based solely on sexual criteria. 

So that was me. What about YOU? Where did sexuality fall in your hierarchy of spouse selection and how much of a factor was sex in choosing your spouse?

Were there any sexual deal breakers that caused you to stop seeing someone based solely on a sexual incompatibility?

And conversely, were there any sexual deal makers that made you choose that person based on a sexual criterion that may have canceled out some red flags in the "Other" catagory?


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## GoodDad5 (9 mo ago)

If I knew then what I know now, I would have chosen differently to be honest. I can’t even try teasing her now without her saying something. Sex is just mechanical at this point and we are so incompatible sexually. We are compatible for the most part otherwise.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

We had quite a lot of attraction compelling us to succeed and our first time was awful.

We did both have a willingness to engage in a hell of a lot of practice though so we were compatible on that front.

I honestly don't think I would have gone for a woman that wasn't hungry for me.

The willingness to have sex is what's important to this barbarian. The details can get worked out.

I'm a right horny bastard.😉


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> This is kind of a spin off of the "Spitter" thread where some people said that oral sex was make vs break factor in their partner selection and other people were shocked or even dismayed that a sex act could be a deciding factor on someone's mate selection.
> 
> My question is a bit of the bigger picture. How much was sexual compatibility and sexual traits and characteristics and sexual performance a factor in choosing your spouse?
> 
> ...


No, that thread was about swallowing being a make or break factor. And not even about finishing in her mouth, but swallowing once it's there. Just to clarify. Guy finished in her mouth, but she just doesn't swallow it once it's there.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> I'll go first and say that sexual compatibility made up a good 85% of the key criteria to marry my spouse


It was certainly important to me. I don't think I can assign a percentage. There's a list of failings any one of which would have ruled a woman out. My wife didn't fail on any of those points. Sexual compatibility was certainly one of them. But I equally couldn't have married someone who was hot and good in bed, but who otherwise just liked to spend their time watching television.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I do need to add that I have passed on some women that were very hot and compatible in bed, but flunked in some of the “Other” areas.

one who was a total hottie and porn star in bed I found out had been a drug addict and had her child taken away when she was like 19 or 20 (we were mid 20s when I dated her)

And while I noted she had some,, shall we say,, oddities, She had some traits which I now suspect were BPD.

And other freak in the sheets, to this very day 30some years later has never held a job more than a handful of months or maybe 1 or 2 jobs for a year or so before either getting fired or simply deciding she didn’t want to work there anymore and just stopped showing up.

and a few that were great in bed were already married 😱

so it’s not like some of the other factors were not important or that I was willing to burn down the rest of my life for some nookie.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> How much was sexual compatibility and sexual traits and characteristics and sexual performance a factor in choosing your spouse?


None. We were both virgins.



oldshirt said:


> Prior to marrying your spouse, had you ever dumped someone due solely or primarily on their lack of sexual compatibility or lack of sexual responsiveness or prowess?


Nope. Was never intimate with anyone before wife-to-be.



oldshirt said:


> If you are a guy, did you marry the first girl that touched your pee pee or that let you touch her boobies and so you thought all was great?


Yes. I married the first and only woman have ever been intimate with. We were intimate for months before we married. But knew we wanted to marry and discussed those plans of when before we were intimate. Does that make any sense?

BTW, I thought it was great then and still think it is great.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

After ending my largely sexless first marriage, sexual compatibility was THE most important factor in selecting someone new. If that wasn't excellent, nothing else mattered. Of course, IF sexual compatibility _was_ amazing, it was still essential and mandatory that we be highly compatible in other ways: values, goals, beliefs, etc. I met and dated several women who were incredible matches in these ways, and married the one who was truly the best of the best. After 22 years, all that is still true. (And while it wasn't a factor in my choice, yes, she swallows!)


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

0


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

In the interest of transparency I do need to confess that there is an old GF of mine that if she was here, she would state that she dumped me do to not being able to cut the mustard. 

i was 20 years old and she was a 17 year old high school senior when we met at work and started dating.

the first few months it was all Saturday night movies and dates to the malt shop and some parking and making out in the pick up truck out in the country.

when we did become sexually active, it basically released the Kracken and she became a different person and was the one climbing all over me.

when I moved into my own apartment not too far from her house and she started spending nights with me, it was multiple times a night with her waking me up every couple hours or any time one of us would brush up against the other in our sleep.

I was actually the Low Libido partner and she was the frustrated and resentful high Libido one.

the drinking age was 19 back then and when she turned 19 and started drinking and hitting the clubs and started having all the party boyz and fck boyz hitting on her, it was all over for me.

once I wisened up and figured out what she was doing and confronted her about screwing all these guys, there was no apology or begging for forgiveness or another chance etc.

she basically just said she wanted to party and play the field (80s term for riding the carousel ) and she was gone.

I fancied myself on being adventurous and game in bed. But no matter how game I am in bed, I’m not a new and different guy every night.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

oldshirt said:


> .....Prior to marrying your spouse, had you ever dumped someone due solely or primarily on their lack of sexual compatibility or lack of sexual responsiveness or prowess?


Yes. 

When I first started dating, it was about having someone I could go pit with so we could attend functions, parties, group events, etc. At that point sex wasn't important. Making out was a nice way of bonding with someone, but sexual responsiveness, etc. wasn't critical. We just liked to go out and do things with the same folks/groups together. Obviously, there were a few prissy girls who didn't want to be kissed or held or touch a man, but just wanted someone to take them out, pay for things, etc. They were not really enough into me (nor I them) to have "sex" be a go/no-go issue.

As I grew older and started to be more serious in my dating, I was looking to date women who we enjoyed each others company more than being part of a crowd or event. I was also looking for someone I might be able to establish a relationship and could relax and be totally comfortable with. I would describe this as potential pair bonding. And yes there were some women who were just uncomfortable with their own bodies, I quickly discovered that and it was a deal killer.

Unless you are just dating for the purpose of going out with a group of friends, you want someone you have sexual chemistry with. In building a relationship you want an eager partner willing to explore all aspects of the relationship, from talking late into the night about your dreams and fears to making out further and further.



> If you are a guy, did you marry the first girl that touched your pee pee or that let you touch her boobies and so you thought all was great?


Not even close. Dating is suppose to be about exploration. Marriage was about building a solid relationship foundation with someone so that you know them, their values, could trust them, respect them and their dreams, and that you both sexually desire each other.



> Were there any sexual deal breakers that caused you to stop seeing someone based solely on a sexual incompatibility?


Yes, one woman in particular stands out. She was a former high school cheer leader, who I was quite serious about and had been dating for months. I thought she might be the one. We had brought each other to orgasm on several dates. One night she kneed my in the groin in a hotel room I had rented. I am not into masochism. Not only did she kill the mood, but her action killed our relationship. I never dated her again. I felt I could never let my guard down to trust her again. She crossed a boundary of mine. That was a truly WTF moment in dating. I was just so grateful to find out what she was capable of before we got too serious. I later learned that she freaked out and had some sort of panic attack.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> I fancied myself on being adventurous and game in bed. But no matter how game I am in bed, I’m not a new and different guy every night.


Do you know what happened to her later in life? I can understand her attitude at that age, and not wanting any kind of commitment, but did she get over that phase, or not?


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## marko polo (Jan 26, 2021)

After divorce sex was a necessary compatibility requirement. My 2nd wife are still having fun 19 years and counting.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Married but Happy said:


> Do you know what happened to her later in life? I can understand her attitude at that age, and not wanting any kind of commitment, but did she get over that phase, or not?


She has been married (to the same guy) for over 30 years, so either she got over that stage, or they are swingers or she’s been a recalcitrant cheater on him. 

we have been friends on Facebook for a dozen or so years and have chatted back and forth about this and that over the years and have even talked on the phone once or twice.

as far as I know, she has lived a normal, respectable life.

I was bitter and a lot of bad juu-juu for many years and thought of her as a monster.

But in recent years I’ve come to understand and realize that’s part of growing up and what 19 year old chicks do.

her testimony to me when we talked a few years ago was she loved me and and I was a good boyfriend and her first love, but she was just driven to adventure and excitement and exploration and simply could not be committed to one person at that time in her life.


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## romantic_dreamer (Jun 15, 2021)

When my wife moved in with me we had not had any sex yet. We were lucky to be sexually compatible. Now I would never move in with a girl not to say Mary her if I were not 1000% sure we ate on the same page in sexual intimacy. Yes, sex for me is make or break it. It is not the only criteria but it is absolutely critical part of a live between two people and happy and healthy marriage.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> My question is a bit of the bigger picture. How much was sexual compatibility and sexual traits and characteristics and sexual performance a factor in choosing your spouse?


Since I consider sex to be a foundation of marriage. Sex mattered/matters a lot to me, when it comes to deciding if I will marry someone.



> As compared to the "other" factors and criteria such as education, parental abilities, financial success, moral and religious values, intelligence, sense of humor, approved by Grandma and the family etc etc how much criteria were sexual and how much was the 'other' factors in your decision to marry your spouse?


It held primacy. That said there was an enormous parade of other factors that were only a smidgin less important to me than the sex side of things.



> Prior to marrying your spouse, had you ever dumped someone due solely or primarily on their lack of sexual compatibility or lack of sexual responsiveness or prowess?


Yes, 'cause ugh when I experienced it!



> If you are a guy, did you marry the first girl that touched your pee pee or that let you touch her boobies and so you thought all was great?


No, but we're still friends.



> Did you marry someone that did not get your motor runn'n but he/she seemed like a good mother/father and your family approved?


No. Why on earth would anyone think doing such a ridiculous thing, would be a good idea?



> In general how much of a factor was sexuality and sexual compatibility a factor and how many check off boxes of requirements were dedicated to sexuality and sexual compatibility?


It was essential.

In no particular order, at a minimum I would not have ever married my wife, if she didn't do all of the following:

Orgasm via standalone penis in vagina sex.
Orgasm via oral sex.
Happily and frequently take cum facials.
Happily and frequently swallow my ejaculate.
Happily slowly drool my ejaculate out of her mouth onto her breasts.
Happily and frequently take my penis in her mouth after it has been inside her vagina.
Happily and frequently take my penis in her mouth after I have ejaculated inside her genitals.
Enjoy kissing me straight after receiving cunnilingus.
Enjoy flirting with me frequently.
Enjoy flashing me frequently.
Enjoy receiving anal sex and anal play.
Enjoy receiving nipple play on her.
Enjoy giving nipple play on me.
Enjoy posing for nude drawings, paintings and photography.
Enjoy posing for sexually explicit drawings, paintings and photography.
Enjoy sharing sex in multiple locations and positions.
Enjoy mostly sleeping in the nude.
Enjoy sharing sex very frequently.

In no particular order, at a minimum I would not have ever married my wife, if she was opposed to any of the following:

Public nudity.
Nude art.
Erotica or pornography.
Masturbation.
Peeing in each others presence.
Being peed on by me in the shower at least.

I also wouldn't have married my wife, if she wasn't a great kisser and wasn't open to continuing to try a variety of new sexual things.


..............


That said, although I wouldn't have married my wife if she didn't meet the above sexual criteria.

I also wouldn't have married her if she liked listening to any of the following:

AC/DC
Anthrax
Bee Gees
Black Sabbath
Deep Purple
Def Leopard
Guns N' Roses
Iron Maiden
Judas Priest
Kiss
Little River Band
Megadeath
Metallica
Michael Jackson
Mötley Crüe
Poison
Skid Row
Slayer
Stryper
Thin Lizzy
Venom
Vixen
Whitesnake
Yoko Ono
And country music.

I also wouldn't have married her if she didn't enjoy doing any of the following:

Visiting art galleries, and museums.
Going to see live music acts.
Seeing plays in theatres.
Hanging out in bustling urban places.
Going to the beach.
Drinking alcohol on occasion.
Visiting and exploring new places.

Not forgetting, I wouldn't have married her if she:

Was a smoker.
Was a sports fan.
Wasn't an atheist.
Didn't like a lot of the same music that I like.
Didn't like a lot of the same movies and TV shows that I like.
Didn't enjoy a lot of the same cuisine.
Didn't share a passion for studying history.
Didn't like books or own them and wasn't passionate about literature.
Wasn't well read.
Wasn't quirky.
Didn't enjoy talking to me plentifully.
Didn't enjoy hanging out together.

Plus I also wouldn't have married my wife, if she was boring to me, had limited interests, was unemployed, had kids from a previous sexual relationship (she was almost 26 and I was almost 25 when we started together). Or if she wasn't taller than me and wasn't a very beautiful woman aesthetically.

At the end of the day, I wouldn't have married my wife if she didn't meet all of the above.


..............


So even though not settling for less sexually, is extremely important to me when it comes to marriage. So many other things are also important as well. To the point that I wouldn't settle for less over those things either.

Of which, at 26 years and 4 months into our ongoing sexual relationship (23 years and 5 months married) I'm happy with the outcome so far.


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## Quad73 (May 10, 2021)

I'm only half kidding about this @Personal, what if she met ALL the above criteria, but liked the Bee Gees? What were your chances of finding this unicorn's unicorn?


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## Julie's Husband (Jan 3, 2022)

> How much was sexual compatibility and sexual traits and characteristics and sexual performance a factor in choosing your spouse?


Not consciously. We were compatible so that was never a question.



> If you are a guy, did you marry the first girl that touched your pee pee or that let you touch her boobies and so you thought all was great?


No, she was number 4 and the only one that didn't drop her panties and try to get me in bed before she knew little more than my name.



> Prior to marrying your spouse, had you ever dumped someone due solely or primarily on their lack of sexual compatibility or lack of sexual responsiveness or prowess?
> 
> Were there any sexual deal breakers that caused you to stop seeing someone based solely on a sexual incompatibility?


Dumped three as they were after casual or recreational sex and I wanted a meaningful long term relationship. Guess you could call that being incompatible.



> In general how much of a factor was sexuality and sexual compatibility a factor and how many check off boxes of requirements were dedicated to sexuality and sexual compatibility?


No boxes to check off. I loved her for who she was. Sex was just a way of being close.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Quad73 said:


> I'm only half kidding about this @Personal, what if she met ALL the above criteria, but liked the Bee Gees? What were your chances of finding this unicorn's unicorn?


Bee Gees! 🤮 , I'm sorry but I have my standards (I would hate to have to hear that rubbish), so we wouldn't be married.

Of which my ex-wife also met almost the same criteria with the exception of her being still religious at the time and we didn't see plays in theatre together. Plus I don't know if she was up for posing for rude photography, although she was up for posing for rude drawings.

Then afterwards having had more sexual relationships, post being with my ex-wife. I added those additional things to my criteria.

Not forgetting I was also in a significant sexual relationship, with another woman who met almost all of my before mentioned preferences as well, with the exception of her being shorter than me (it turns out form further experience I like being with taller women) and not enjoying anal sex (she also asked me to marry her and I turned her down). That said in my experience finding women, who meet such criteria or almost meet it, hasn't been difficult, 'cause birds of a feather...


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Of course, its vital,,,,probably as vital as anything else...

That being said, how often do we hear about how sex was great in the beginning, blah, blah, then it all falls apart...for whatever reason...

Also, despite what a lot of people admit to, the reality is that a lot of the attraction sexually has to do with another person's appearance, etc...Outside the normal aspects of aging, and perhaps conditions out of one's control, how many guys out there would love to still look at their partners the same, but can't after a huge weight gain, lack of grooming, etc...ANd this is not something that is gender excluisve, woman could dry up on a guy for the same reasons..

So while its important, it doesn't mean it can't change or morph, so I really can't say anything is a guarantee..


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

hamadryad said:


> Of course, its vital,,,,probably as vital as anything else...
> 
> That being said, how often do we hear about how sex was great in the beginning, blah, blah, then it all falls apart...for whatever reason...
> 
> ...


Things change but the question was in regards to the time the decision was made that this would be the person you marry. 

And I definitely believe there is a lot more to sexual compatibility than appearance. A beautiful woman/handsome man can have a long list of "no's" or things that they are poor performers that no amount of beauty could over come. 

There are certain things that if Heidi Klum herself would not or could not do, that I would have to bid her adieu.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I have no idea. Sex was good, we had it every day. That was enough for me. Then life happened.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> Things change but the question was in regards to the time the decision was made that this would be the person you marry.
> 
> And I definitely believe there is a lot more to sexual compatibility than appearance. A beautiful woman/handsome man can have a long list of "no's" or things that they are poor performers that no amount of beauty could over come.
> 
> There are certain things that if Heidi Klum herself would not or could not do, that I would have to bid her adieu.


Fair points...

I am guessing we are about the same age? Back in those days, most of us were married by around 25 years old...What did I know at that point? I was just a young guy, with an uncertain path and some brushes with the law with parents that didn't really care or advise us on these matters..I think for a lot of us, it was just pure luck that there was any long term compatibility and checking of boxes...Sexual compatibility wasn't anything I gave ANY thought to....I had a fair amount of partners and sex by that time, and the novelty of it had worn off, plus I lacked the intellectual capacity to understand how important an aspect it is for long term survival of the relationship...I had only seen it as an aspect of lust and not for bonding or compatibility...My needs at that time were more security and desire for a normal adult life of house, cars money etc..

Additionally, there wasn't nearly the discussion and info that we have today, thanks to the internet...This is important, as people before that time had nothing to really contrast and compare to and reflect and discuss...

Age and wisdom makes us more capable of knowing what we want out of life and what works and doesn't work......Its sad, that a lot oi us have to learn it the hard way, but it is what it is...I can only speak for myself, but it took around a half a century and some lumps to figure it all out....And I do feel like i have it figured out and don't need to "settle" for anything .... sadly probably not that much time left to enjoy it, before the shyt really hits the fan....lol


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## Quad73 (May 10, 2021)

Fascinating read @oldshirt, thanks for posting this topic. I'd contribute but have no idea how to divide up your OP into answerable parts


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Quad73 said:


> Fascinating read @oldshirt, thanks for posting this topic. I'd contribute but have no idea how to divide up your OP into answerable parts


the same way you eat an elephant - one bite at a time 😃


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

hamadryad said:


> Back in those days, most of us were married by around 25 years old...What did I know at that point? I was just a young guy…


This. One other thing too, if someone I knew tried to tell me how important it was I wouldn’t have paid attention. I know a few guys in that age range from the gym and I have attempted to pass on the wisdom but it’s not going to stick. Some things you need to learn the hard way.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

hamadryad said:


> Fair points...
> 
> I am guessing we are about the same age? Back in those days, most of us were married by around 25 years old...What did I know at that point? I was just a young guy, with an uncertain path and some brushes with the law with parents that didn't really care or advise us on these matters..I think for a lot of us, it was just pure luck that there was any long term compatibility and checking of boxes...Sexual compatibility wasn't anything I gave ANY thought to....I had a fair amount of partners and sex by that time, and the novelty of it had worn off, plus I lacked the intellectual capacity to understand how important an aspect it is for long term survival of the relationship...I had only seen it as an aspect of lust and not for bonding or compatibility...My needs at that time were more security and desire for a normal adult life of house, cars money etc..
> 
> ...


you bring up a good point in regards to “then vs now” and how our wants and needs and criteria will change over time.

iBack in 1982 I probably would have married the first girl that touched my pee pee and let me touch her boobies.

i grew up in a tiny dot on the map in the middle of Midwest farm country where the nearest set of stop lights was in another town 20 miles away.

most of my peers married their prom dates shortly after graduation. It was just what people did.

She was/is a good person and she was mother and family approved.

She was my first real one-on-one car date. She was my first real kiss. She was my first PIV…

And did I mention she would let me touch her boobies and she would even suck my junk now and then.

what more could a nerdy 17 year old ask for!!!! 

Luckily she had more sense than hormones and she broke up with me a year after graduation rather than being hungry for a ring, a wedding reception and babies.

don’t get me wrong, I was heartbroken and cried in my beer, but it would have been utter disaster if she had wanted the ring and babies because I would have given then to her since she touched my junk and would let me touch her boobies and all.

Anyway, where I am going with this is looking back, she was THE WORST lover I’ve ever had and I am 100% sure she would say the same of me.

after she gave me the boot, I was a single bachelor living the bachelor lifestyle for the next dozen years and by the time I started to consider settling down and having a home and family,, My list of requirements and criteria was 10,000 times longer.

i wasn’t as picky as Personal in that Motley Crue was a deal breaker.

But at 19 my list of criteria would have been - let me touch boobies, and have PIV.

nothing else would have mattered either sexually or non sexually.

Raving lunatic or alcoholic?? The question would be would she let me touch her boobies?

Riproaring case of BPD? Will she still put out?

Sit on the couch watching soaps all day and getting fat? See the above response questions. 

this is why I don’t think men should even consider marriage/children/mortgage etc until they are 30 and well established in their career.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Compatibility was extremely important to me.

and we WERE compatible. Problem is, I messed up. Big time. Worst mistake of my life. I assumed that we were having issues prior to marriage and everything would work itself out. Our compatibility was gone after the first two years and never really came back but I fooled myself into believing that it would.

from now on, the compatibility has to be there at all times.

AT ALL TIMES.

the moment it is gone, I’m gone.


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## gameopoly5 (5 mo ago)

GoodDad5 said:


> If I knew then what I know now, I would have chosen differently to be honest. I can’t even try teasing her now without her saying something. Sex is just mechanical at this point and we are so incompatible sexually. We are compatible for the most part otherwise.


Same, same.
When my now second wife and I first met and engaged she was like a sex goddess on heat. We were at it like rabbits right up until the first year of our marriage.
For years and now my sex life with the wife is like that of a benedictine monk. 
I`ve literally given up and I have more fun going to bed with a good book.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

I decided to marry my husband because I felt we were very compatible in every aspect of our lives. We were young, but I felt it in my gut he was the one. 

I was lucky, my first sexual partner was older than me, someone with some experience and very sexual and sensual. He made me feel awesome but I was 17 and I didn't want t o have a serious relationship. I broke up with him. We are still in touch. He's happy. I still remember how good he was. He made me feel loved and special. 

I also got dumped by one of my ex boyfriends because we didn't have frequent sex. I don't blame him, but in my defense, I was living at home with my parents and my mom was a SAHM. I couldn't have sex at home! He was frustrated and dumped me. 🤷🏻‍♀️ I think I dodged a huge bullet because we were not compatible and I was trying really hard to be with him. It hurt to be dumped and it made feel insecure about my sexual abilities, but once I met my husband, my insecurities went out the window! 👍

Even though I was young when I got married, thanks to my few previous experiences, I knew what I wanted. I was open to make my partner happy and I wanted to be happy too.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> things that they are poor performers that no amount of beauty could over come.


What about ojt? Wife n I learned together. And have to say we think we perform very well together.



LATERILUS79 said:


> I assumed that we were having issues prior to marriage and everything would work itself out.


A lot of people think they can "fix" the flaws in their mate once they marry. Doubt many manage that.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Rus47 said:


> A lot of people think they can "fix" the flaws in their mate once they marry. Doubt many manage that.


correction: a lot of people think MARRIAGE will fix a lot of problems and flaws and issues.

I’m willing to bet marriage actually exacerbates and causes more problems than it fixes.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Rus47 said:


> What about ojt?


OJT can be worth a try during the preselection or probationary period.

But I would give Heidi Klum no more than 2,635 attempts to get it right before she is outta there!


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> correction: a lot of people think MARRIAGE will fix a lot of problems and flaws and issues.
> 
> I’m willing to bet marriage actually exacerbates and causes more problems than it fixes.


I think that was what meant to say. Marriage wont fix a problem


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

People also think having kids will fix a bunch of problems and it will only accentuate them.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> but she was just driven to adventure and excitement and exploration and simply could not be committed to one person at that time in her life.


Hohoho! 😋


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

ccpowerslave said:


> This. One other thing too, if someone I knew tried to tell me how important it was I wouldn’t have paid attention. I know a few guys in that age range from the gym and I have attempted to pass on the wisdom but it’s not going to stick. Some things you need to learn the hard way.


I've recently been having young dudes asking a lot of questions about relationships.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

ccpowerslave said:


> This. One other thing too, if someone I knew tried to tell me how important it was I wouldn’t have paid attention. I know a few guys in that age range from the gym and I have attempted to pass on the wisdom but it’s not going to stick. Some things you need to learn the hard way.


Yeah, I was far too stupid to be proactively considering sexual compatibility when I got married in my mid 20s.
Fortunately, things ended up working out pretty well over the last 20+ years (with a few sparse patches along the way).

A lot of young guys are open to guidance, and you never know what’s going to stick. So I believe it’s incumbent upon us to continually share our experience and earned wisdom with the lads.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

gameopoly5 said:


> Same, same.
> When my now second wife and I first met and engaged she was like a sex goddess on heat. We were at it like rabbits right up until the first year of our marriage.
> For years and now my sex life with the wife is like that of a benedictine monk.
> *I`ve literally given up and I have more fun going to bed with a good book.*


I am so sorry for you. It won't get better unless you try to fix it. After about 38 years of marriage at age 60, I found I was in a sex starved marriage. After reading Glover's No More, Mr. Nice Guy and MW Davis the Sex Starved Marriage and a bunch more books, I decided I had had enough of that kind of treatment and deserved to be in a loving sexual relationship by my 62nd birthday. I worked on Getting a Life which is code words that both Glover and Davis use in their books. I lost a lot of weight, started dressing better, and restarted physical hobbies I gave up early in my marriage.

I promised myself I would do everything in my power to save my marriage. If for no other reason that to not repeat the same mistakes with the next woman I might fall in love with, should my wife be unable to provide me with the loving sexual relationship, I wanted. You can't force your wife to change, but you can force them to take notice that you have changed, or that that you will not allow yourself to be treated the same. I was lucky that I was able to convince my wife to go to marriage counseling and therapy with me from a board certified sex therapist. *That was expensive, but the best money I have ever spent.*

The ST got through to my wife and made her realize that my W was pushing me away and ultimately I would divorce my W. The ST asked if that was what my W wanted? My W didn't think that I would have ever divorce her over something so trivial as sex. It took a lot for her to understand that sex in marriage was not trivial to me. The ST then worked with me in front of my W to see what I felt was a loving sexual relationship. She actually got my wife and me to discuss if we ever had a loving sexual relationship, but what we had defined. We had. 

The ST laid it out for my wife that I was not asking for anything she was not capable of doing or had not done in the past. Therefore, my W could choose marriage or divorce by her actions, but she had to live with the consequences of that choice and own the responsibility of divorce, if it came to that.

*You can't change your wife, you can only change yourself and offer support if your wife wants to change herself for the better.

Good luck.*


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

When young guys ask me about women and getting married, all I say is "the f**king you get won't be worth the f**king you are going to get ...." 😂


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## umbluu (Jan 24, 2020)

Due to a combination of factors (too long to explain, will be too personal and a threadjack; I wish someone explained things to me as Conan mentions, but I probably would not listen), I had very weird attitude about sex when I met my future wife when we were 17. Nothing to do with religion, but the end result seems similar... It was completely unthinkable for me to leave someone based on sexual incompatibility or to "experiment" with sex or relationships. The idea of a 17-year old girl who enjoyed sex with her boyfriend breaking up because she was not ready for a serious relationship would not compute at all for me at that time..

I guess if my girlfriend / now wife refused to have sex at all, maybe I could/would contemplate leaving for some other reason. But the catch is - for some other reason, and not having sex would just make me not feel obligated to stay.


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## Marriednatlanta (Sep 21, 2016)

GoodDad5 said:


> If I knew then what I know now, I would have chosen differently to be honest. I can’t even try teasing her now without her saying something. Sex is just mechanical at this point and we are so incompatible sexually. We are compatible for the most part otherwise.


I know the exact feeling you describe above.


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## AandM (Jan 30, 2019)

I proposed while pounding her from behind while she was leaning against a picnic table in a semi-secluded section of a popular state park.

Draw your own conclusions.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

AandM said:


> I proposed while pounding her from behind while she was leaning against a picnic table in a semi-secluded section of a popular state park.
> 
> Draw your own conclusions.


How romantic. I hope you had at least one knee on the picnic table bench when you proposed.


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## AandM (Jan 30, 2019)

Young at Heart said:


> How romantic. I hope you had at least one knee on the picnic table bench when you proposed.


I could barely afford a 1/4 carat diamond, 10k gold ring.

We just refurbished the ring. She insists: no diamond bigger than 1/4 carat.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

gameopoly5 said:


> Same, same.
> When my now second wife and I first met and engaged she was like a sex goddess on heat. We were at it like rabbits *right up until the first year of our marriage.*
> For years and now my sex life with the wife is like that of a benedictine monk.
> I`ve literally given up and I have more fun going to bed with a good book.


Unless you did something especially egregious to her, which resulted in her not liking you at all. I have to say I'm surprised, that you didn't immediately dump your wife for clearly being faulty. 'Cause to stay married in the face of of sharing little sex or no sex, really is just nuts to me.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

oldshirt said:


> How much was sexual compatibility and sexual traits and characteristics and sexual performance a factor in choosing your spouse?


So much a factor that my policy was to have sex before getting emotionally attached or involved.



oldshirt said:


> But in recent years I’ve come to understand and realize that’s part of growing up and what 19 year old chicks do.


Yeah, that is a time of exploration. Self, the world, you name it. That stats say after 25 is best. It takes us a minute past adulthood to figure out who we are and what we actually want.

Also, if you think _dating_ a 19 year old young woman was hard, try_ being_ a 19 year old young woman. We generally didn't understand ourselves any better than you did.



Quad73 said:


> what if she met ALL the above criteria, but liked the Bee Gees?


My DH met all the criteria, but likes Abba. 
Abba! 
Sometimes you just have to let a detail slide by. Just let it go and never think of it.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

AandM said:


> I could barely afford a 1/4 carat diamond, 10k gold ring.
> 
> We just refurbished the ring. She insists: no diamond bigger than 1/4 carat.


All I could afford was 1/8 carat.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

AandM said:


> I could barely afford a 1/4 carat diamond, 10k gold ring.
> 
> We just refurbished the ring. She insists: no diamond bigger than 1/4 carat.


She's a Keeper!!


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## AandM (Jan 30, 2019)

Married but Happy said:


> She's a Keeper!!


28 years together.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

MJJEAN said:


> So much a factor that my policy was to have sex before getting emotionally attached or involved.


 My wife and I share that policy as well.



> Yeah, that is a time of exploration. Self, the world, you name it. That stats say after 25 is best. It takes us a minute past adulthood to figure out who we are and what we actually want.
> 
> Also, if you think _dating_ a 19 year old young woman was hard, try_ being_ a 19 year old young woman. We generally didn't understand ourselves any better than you did.


Yep.



> My DH met all the criteria, but likes Abba.
> Abba!
> Sometimes you just have to let a detail slide by. Just let it go and never think of it.


 Your husband must be a magnificent man, we like ABBA as well.

Funnily enough my wife also likes a few acts that I don't like, being Meatloaf amongst others, yet I can survive hearing that occasionally.

Not forgetting that for my wife it is a two way street as well, so there's lots of things that she was/is unwilling to settle for as well. And she's awesome, in being like that.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Rus47 said:


> All I could afford was 1/8 carat.


I have no idea what particular carat engagement ring, I got for my wife and nor do I care either.


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## Julie's Husband (Jan 3, 2022)

AandM said:


> I could barely afford a 1/4 carat diamond, 10k gold ring.
> 
> We just refurbished the ring. She insists: no diamond bigger than 1/4 carat.


My wife had two silver rings ($60?) worn like those worn by Vanessa Redgrave in the movie Camelot. I had a $4.50 silver ring with turquoise colored inlay. The inlay did not seem durable to we got an $8+ ring from a kiosk on San Francisco's Fisherman's Wharf after the wedding.


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## gameopoly5 (5 mo ago)

oldshirt said:


> correction: a lot of people think MARRIAGE will fix a lot of problems and flaws and issues.
> 
> I’m willing to bet marriage actually exacerbates and causes more problems than it fixes.


I enjoy your posts, you are one of the most logical posters on here.
I agree.
I had a very abusive childhood with my parents and was mostly brought up by my paternal aunt who I regarded as my mother.
But in my young adult years I yearned to have a real family of my own.
I met a girl in a pub, we were both 21 at the time. We married after only dating for 5 months. I have posted more details about this on other threads.
We were both working but had nothing, no savings, no proper home and money was tight. 
Needless to say this marriage ended in disaster, took me years to recover from it and ended up right back with my aunt again, until later I managed to buy my own apartment.
People can get married for all the wrong reasons and as you say, it can add more problems on top of the problems we tried to fix in the first place.


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> This is kind of a spin off of the "Spitter" thread where some people said that oral sex was make vs break factor in their partner selection and other people were shocked or even dismayed that a sex act could be a deciding factor on someone's mate selection.
> 
> My question is a bit of the bigger picture. How much was sexual compatibility and sexual traits and characteristics and sexual performance a factor in choosing your spouse?


At one point we were discussing sex after children and she said something about possibly not seeing herself as a sexual person after she had children because then she'd be a mother. I responded to the effect that I was going to have sex after I had kids either with her or someone else. We were both wrong.

Prior to marriage, I knew that she wasn't much on BJs but she was pretty open to doing other things. Frequency wasn't quite what I would like but it wasn't low enough to cause much distress.



oldshirt said:


> As compared to the "other" factors and criteria such as education, parental abilities, financial success, moral and religious values, intelligence, sense of humor, approved by Grandma and the family etc etc how much criteria were sexual and how much was the 'other' factors in your decision to marry your spouse?


We started dating as teenagers so much of that was unknown when we started dating. Neither of us had graduated from college by the time we got married but I was only one or two classes short. I had been scheduled to graduate but something came up and I had to retake a class. I followed her to her church. I didn't really care what my family thought but her family loved me. I was by far the most responsible person she'd dated.



oldshirt said:


> Prior to marrying your spouse, had you ever dumped someone due solely or primarily on their lack of sexual compatibility or lack of sexual responsiveness or prowess?
> 
> If you are a guy, did you marry the first girl that touched your pee pee or that let you touch her boobies and so you thought all was great?
> 
> If you are a woman did you marry someone because you were sexually active with him and figured that's what you were supposed to do or did he actually get your motor runn'n?


We were both virgins when we started dating so neither of us had dumped someone over sex. I was one of the last of my friends to meet the person I would marry at the grand old age of 20. It definitely felt a bit like in the game of musical chairs that I was going to be left standing. I also had no illusions that she was perfect though. I also didn't expect perfection. On some level I know that she felt like we'd had sex and had not broken up for a couple years so we were overdue for getting married.




oldshirt said:


> Did you marry someone that did not get your motor runn'n but he/she seemed like a good mother/father and your family approved?


She felt like I was a "good guy" so I "deserved" to be in a relationship and that she "should" love me. For a while she convinced both of us that she did.



oldshirt said:


> In general how much of a factor was sexuality and sexual compatibility a factor and how many check off boxes of requirements were dedicated to sexuality and sexual compatibility?


In terms of importance sexual compatibility is probably #1. I don't necessarily need companionship to participate in most of my hobbies. I don't need someone here in the evening after work. From that perspective I can be a little picky. Anyone I stay with will be a reader or at least respect the fact that I am one for instance.

In terms of specific activities, I'm pretty flexible as long as there's some variation and the quantity is good. I would expect as we get more comfortable with each other the menu might get expanded. I realize that this is the opposite of many people's experience but it is my hope.

I'm not particularly picky about looks. Like, there's no specific "type" that appeals to me.



oldshirt said:


> As this may be a sensitive topic for some, I'll go first and say that sexual compatibility made up a good 85% of the key criteria to marry my spouse. To put it bluntly, she was the hottest and sexiest chick and the most sexually compatible chick that I could still bring home to Mom and have around my friends and family.
> 
> My baseline 'other' requirements were someone that was a sane, sober, self-supporting, law abiding citizen that shared a good portion of my values and life goals and who would be a good life partner, housemate and coparent.
> 
> ...


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

AandM said:


> I could barely afford a 1/4 carat diamond, 10k gold ring.
> 
> We just refurbished the ring. She insists: no diamond bigger than 1/4 carat.


Sounds familiar. The diamond engagement ring we used was about 1/4 carat. We were poor college kids just before graduation.

Since we have been married over 51 years, the original engagement ring was worn so thin over the years, that my wife no longer wears it for fear it will break and she will loose it. The solid wedding band she put on her finger during the marriage ceremony, I had to cut off her finger a year ago after a bad fall caused her ring finger to dangerously swell. I have offered to take them to a custom jeweler and have them recast using the same plus additional gold, but she has refused.

She has a bunch of nice rings with various jewels that she wears on her ring finger. We have traveled all over the world and she has bought some of those rings in incredible places like the Grand Bizzare in Istanbul, to jewelry shops on a Greek Island, in Milan, in Florence, and in Shanghai.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

I married the first girl that touched my pee pee, but I had touched other girls' boobies. The chemistry was obviously there from the very first time. It wasn't long after our first sexual encounter I fell in love with her. It was 3 times that evening. The refractory period of a 16 year old is amazing, lol. 

Sexual compatibility wasn't something I was specifically thinking about in a direct manner. However, we were having great sex for over 2 years by the time we got married. I was under the assumption that this would never end. I now realize that may have been a gamble based on what we see here far too often on TAM. I came out on the winning end of that gamble.

It appear I get my wife's motor running given that 35 years later and something in the neighborhood of 10,000 sexual encounters with her, she is still into it as much as I am.


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## Quad73 (May 10, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> It appear I get my wife's motor running given that 35 years later and something in the neighborhood of 10,000 sexual encounters with her, she is still into it as much as I am.


Sex 5.5x / week for the duration, impressive and heart warming BDNY. 

I'll be doing a bit of math this morning


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Cr


Quad73 said:


> Sex 5.5x / week for the duration, impressive and heart warming BDNY.
> 
> I'll be doing a bit of math this morning


Crunch those numbers, lol.

That was an approximation. If add it up with a little better accuracy it is probably between 8k and 9k. Kind of crazy when you think about it that way. And I've loved the last time as much as the first.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

I absolutely have to chime in on this thread.

When I got married at 22, I did not know that sexual incompatibility was even a thing. Neither did my wife. My previous long-term relationship had been with a very highly sexual partner. I assumed this was the norm. 

When my new girlfriend/fiancé required that we abstain from sex until marriage, it was on the presumption that a man worth marrying would be willing to wait for "the good stuff". She had been burned in the past by men who only wanted one thing - the boy to whom she lost her virginity bailed immediately after. Others had tried to get it and failed, then they too disappeared into the woodwork when told no. She was jaded and suspicious. 

We did just enough fooling around before marriage that I knew she wasn't asexual. What I thought was an abundance of caution I would now reinterpret as a general lack of interest in sex _as I define it_. On our wedding night, she asked if we could get some sleep before finally consummating our 18 month relationship. On our second night during our honeymoon, she made a statement to the effect that we should have sex again until we figured out how to do this right - a comment that at the time carried more resignation than joy. I'm to this day not sure how much of that attitude was being a good soldier vs. being an enthusiastic participant.

We were two people who were both interested in sex, but have never come to an agreement on what exactly "having sex" means. We are incompatible at a fundamental level that should have been realized during pre-trial discovery. This is why I urge anyone preparing for marriage to get to know each other intimately before vows are exchanged. Set aside your religious proscriptions and anti-sex indoctrination or fears. If you are going to spend decades with someone, don't spend most of that time arguing over what should be your most enjoyable expression together. You don't have to sleep your way through the phone book, but you should at least try to wear out the future mother/father of your children.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Cletus said:


> I absolutely have to chime in on this thread.
> 
> When I got married at 22, I did not know that sexual incompatibility was even a thing. Neither did my wife. My previous long-term relationship had been with a very highly sexual partner. I assumed this was the norm.
> 
> ...


Your post is golden and should be mandatory reading for every high school graduate before they can walk across the stage for their diploma. 

Now that I am old and gray, I do believe what you said above about virtue vs indifference. 

I know some people have religious beliefs and some people have convictions about abstaining from intercourse prior to marriage. 

But I now fully believe that people that date for months and months and are perfectly OK to not have sexual contact are not pure and virtuous and devoted to Jesus, but simply are either not into sex and/or are not into the person they are seeing. 

And even if they do proclaim they are saving it for Jesus, they are using the Bible/Koran etc as a shield to cckblock themselves from the person(s) they don't want have sex with in the first place. 

Now I don't want to come off as pointing a finger because I am sure I would have fallen for the same thing when I was young. As it turns out, the women I dated were very sexual and while some may have gone to mainstream churches now and then, none were actual bible thumpers or holy rollers or anything. The one church girl I dated put on the brakes when my hands started to move south of the border during a make out session and told me she was saving it for Jesus in my single days was a gal I had met a week or two earlier when I was in my upper 20s. By that time I had had a variety of relationships and hook ups etc and new that I didn't need to compete against Jesus. 

But when I was 19??? I would not have been able to differentiate between virtue and indifference, repression and inhibition. 

I have no doubt that if I had met up some young cutie that was promising me the moon while keeping me at arm's distance way back in the day, I would have fallen for it like so many others. 

And in my younger days I would have totally fallen for - "All the other boys only wanted one thing and hurt me........." and I would have shown her how asexual and nonthreatening I could be all the way to the day she would leave me for some alpha Chad that would bang her up against the dumpster behind the bar within an hour of meeting. 

Ah if only youth wasn't wasted on the young.


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## David60525 (Oct 5, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> This is kind of a spin off of the "Spitter" thread where some people said that oral sex was make vs break factor in their partner selection and other people were shocked or even dismayed that a sex act could be a deciding factor on someone's mate selection.
> 
> My question is a bit of the bigger picture. How much was sexual compatibility and sexual traits and characteristics and sexual performance a factor in choosing your spouse?
> 
> ...


If both are not breaking each others back in romps and down to 1 x a week. Divorce. It's a waste of time. Women don't get the Chad they want, they get a guy to pay the bills and eventually disdainfully give it up. Her first choice there would be wild sex happening. Yes sex is important. If you don't put out- GET OUT.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Your post is golden and should be mandatory reading for every high school graduate before they can walk across the stage for their diploma.
> 
> Now that I am old and gray, I do believe what you said above about virtue vs indifference.
> 
> ...


You are SOOOO very wrong about your assumptions about those who wait till marriage for sex. It's nothing whatsoever to do with not liking sex or not being into each other. In fact, that made me laugh to read because many of us found it very hard to wait for marriage but as Christians we trust God and know His teaching on sex and marriage is the best way. I know many many couples who waited, and they have the happiest and best and strongest marriages I know of, many of them of between 40 and 50 years now, and it's great to see.
I appreciate that it's hard for people to understand why Christians do wait, I don't expect you to understand, but please don't make judgements or assumptions about things that you honestly have no understanding about. Don't assume in any way that those who wait aren't interested in sex with the person they love and desire very much, because they are. They just follow a different path and put God first in their relationship.

We know 100% from all that we read here that having sex before marriage is no guarantee whatsoever that the marriage will thrive or that the sex will last. Almost all the people who come here with sex problems have had sex before marriage so were presumably compatible at that time.


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## gameopoly5 (5 mo ago)

David60525 said:


> If both are not breaking each others back in romps and down to 1 x a week. Divorce. It's a waste of time. Women don't get the Chad they want, they get a guy to pay the bills and eventually disdainfully give it up. Her first choice there would be wild sex happening. Yes sex is important. If you don't put out- GET OUT.


I know some husbands including myself whereas having sex once a week would be a luxury. And if these sex deprived husbands decided to divorce their wives for lack of intimacy and sex, than my guess is the divorce rates would become an epidemic.
It is fact that some wives want the security and support of the nice guys (beta males or shmucks as I describe them) and to party with the bad guys (Chads and Tyrones) they prefer to be with and in cases of cheating wives these women are giving up more of themselves to other guys for free that their husbands are paying for.
Many of these women want the bad guys and then try to transform them into good guys, but that doesn`t work in practice.
I agree a lot with oldshirt, women can be fringid in the bedroom department for a multitude of reasons and one being, these wives are simply no longer or have never been into their husbands.
There are some interesting videos on YouTube whereas girlfriends and wives are put to a loyalty test.
One guy stops couples in shopping malls and asks them to swap phones and read each others texts. In 99% of cases it is the women who have proven to be cheating.
Another show is where a crew set up a situation whereas a girlfriend or wife is hit on by a hot rich guy played by actors while their partners are watching as events unfold on secret cameras. I was astounded by how many of these women gave these guys their phone numbers and even going back to their apartments for sex. Then the crew with these women`s boyfriends or husbands crash in exposing their cheating female partners.
I have often wonder if husbands, especially whose sex lives or lack of is vanilla with their wives, if the wives were given a loyalty test how many would fail?
Am awful lot I would guess.


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> We know 100% from all that we read here that having sex before marriage is no guarantee whatsoever that the marriage will thrive or that the sex will last. Almost all the people who come here with sex problems have had sex before marriage so were presumably compatible at that time.


so very interesting points in your post 
as I and was one of these people that grow up in a time that sex before marriage was not the norm ,
in my case it was a long battle as we dated for 4 years and in all that time we did not have sex once 
it was not just a religious thing but much more and it was the norm , 

if we were young in todays world I don't think I would 

but you point made about the people that look on sex as not before marriage having better or longer marriage is for me hard to buy ,
I think they stay together more for the same reason they did not have sex before , they see it as the right thing to do , not all as you get exceptions to everything , 
I would love to see some real research into things like this ,

I think we all have a lot to learn together from each other 
the gays the bi the cheaters the people I have learned the most from are the none religious types the swingers but the true swingers , 
we all have different tastes needs and look at things differently so there is no right response,

the group we know least about the cheaters 
as people don't go around with I am x y or z stamped on our head it is a risk and we all change 
I would love to dig deep into this more but it seems to be too big a field with too many not telling the true story but keep out the best image 
you could hand out a one hundred question to all the members here about their sex life and marriage and if it was filled out by all it would still have little to do with the real life , as some seem to have a need to add to their ego


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

frenchpaddy said:


> so very interesting points in your post
> as I and was one of these people that grow up in a time that sex before marriage was not the norm ,
> in my case it was a long battle as we dated for 4 years and in all that time we did not have sex once
> it was not just a religious thing but much more and it was the norm ,
> ...


The couples I know I have known for decades. They are definitely not staying together because of the church. Its far more acceptable to get a divorce now anyway. It's pretty easy to tell if a couple are happy or not by the way they treat each other and how they speak about each other and the general way they interact. 
My point really is that having sex before marriage and thinking you have sexual compatibility is no guarantee that it will last or that things won't change. On the other hand, those who wait have a trust in God, self-control, a real commitment to each other and God, and a desire to make things work which all bode well for a marriage.
You can tell so much by communicating about sex and everything generally before marriage, you dont have to have sex before marriage to make a marriage work and have a good sex life.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Good points made on both sides of the argument. 

I think where guys get derailed is they don't pick up on the signs. Of course life offers no guarantees, but there are ways to stack the deck in your favor. The one thing that always sticks out is how really attracted is she to you? I think a lot of guys miss this. If at the beginning of the relationship she can't keep her hands off you, or looks at you like a dog looks at a piece of meat, then it's more than likely that it won't fall apart. The fact that she agreed to date you won't necessarily mean much. 

For centuries women selected guys not for what they do for them in the raw attraction aspect, but by how good a guy he is and how good a dad he may wind up being. This is a recipe for complete failure, even in many cases for the woman. 

With women making more money and having more independence, it looks like we are seeing less of this. I have no doubt my own daughter will likely never do it. She will never need a man for support and seeing how she's acted to this point, I think his ability to provide will not matter to her.

There is more I can say, but advise I'd give to a younger guy now is if you think that sex is going to be a vital part of your marriage, then make sure she sees you as sexually attractive. Sure, in most cases the other stuff matters, but you have to have a strong level of attraction to make it last. It almost never "grows" like some people believe.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> It's nothing whatsoever to do with not liking sex or not being into each other. In fact, that made me laugh to read because many of us found it very hard to wait for marriage but as Christians we trust God and know His teaching on sex and marriage is the best way.


you touched on a key feature here. 
I am talking about the people who found it EASY to wait.

I do personally know some people who had strong religious convictions and waited until marriage to have intercourse. 

They married young (20). They had a comparatively short courtship period compared to most people today.

they abstained from PIV but couldn’t keep their hands off each other and did about everything else known to man (as told by her to my daughter)

And most importantly, they suffered. They were very tempted, they were very challenged in their conviction to remain abstinent.

They left the wedding reception at about 6 pm to head to the hotel 😉 😘 

And after the wedding in May, they’ve been going at it like minks every day since (she even told her parents that one LOL 😂)

so yes, I believe these two have genuine burning desire for each other and each have a robust desire for intimacy with each other.

But let’s contrast that with the stories we often see her including that by Rooster above.

when you have an adult in mid 20s or above who is claiming virginity, or claiming they have been used for sex by others but now they are a reformed virgin but have claimed they will now have no sex until marriage as if abstinence now will clean their slate.

And they keep their partner at arm’s length all the time and will only do side hugs and grandma kisses on the cheeks.

And a key feature is they are perfectly comfortable and content to NOT be having any kind of intimate.

And the dead give away is they are still coming up with excuses on the wedding night and days and weeks and even months following the wedding.

Let’s just do the math and believe what we see. If someone is an adult that either hasn’t had sex or claims that every prior contact they had was exploitive and so now they’re going to play the Jesus Card,, If someone is perfectly happy to not have sex and does not appear the least bit challenged or tempted, they instinctively and automatically stiff arm and squirm away any time their partner tries to touch them or lean in for a smooch.

And especially if they continue make excuses after the wedding, they’re not doing it for Jesus and because they are so virtuous and pure - they are doing it because they are not into sex or not into their partner and are likely pathologically repressed and inhibited or damaged.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

….. the problem is most 20something nice guys are not going to be able to differentiate between the two.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> But when I was 19??? I would not have been able to differentiate between virtue and indifference, repression and inhibition.


When I was 19 I wouldn't have always been able to differentiate between those things either. Yet one thing for sure even when I was 16 I knew not waste my time with women like that. When lots of fun was so easy to come by.



> I have no doubt that if I had met up some young cutie that was promising me the moon while keeping me at arm's distance way back in the day, I would have fallen for it like so many others.


Even when I was young, I knew not to waste my time, being with those who weren't enthusiastically up for it from the get go, NEXT!!!!!



> And in my younger days I would have totally fallen for - "All the other boys only wanted one thing and hurt me........." *and I would have shown her how asexual and nonthreatening I could be* all the way to the day she would leave me for some alpha Chad that would bang her up against the dumpster behind the bar within an hour of meeting.


Not me.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> Almost all the people who come here with sex problems have had sex before marriage so were presumably compatible at that time.


Taking test drives doesnt guarantee the car’s long time performance.

Wife and I were not Christians when we met. We were intimate before marriage, but had made marriage plans. Neither ever had anyone else. We have had a wonderful marriage in every way


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

hamadryad said:


> There is more I can say, but advise I'd give to a younger guy now is if you think that sex is going to be a vital part of your marriage, *then make sure she sees you as sexually attractive*.


But what about the guys who can't find that and will never even experience that, regardless of whether they're single or married? Since there are lots of guys, who simply aren't particularly sexually attractive. And no amount of self help reading, sage advice, exercise or any other tripe, is ever going to turn them into something they will never be.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Personal said:


> When I was 19 I wouldn't have always been able to differentiate between those things either. Yet one thing for sure even when I was 16 I knew not waste my time with women like that. When lots of fun was so easy to come by.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think a lot depends on the environment you grew up in and basically how brainwashed you were. 

For me, I grew up in a tiny village in midwest farm country. The nearest actual stoplight was in a small city 20 miles away. 
I was in a culture that got up before the sun, worked hard all day, didn't put up with any nonsense or shenanigans, and people at least tried to be abstinent until marriage and most people married their prom date within a year or two of high school graduation. The late bloomers that went away to college married their college sweetheart. 

I moved away and I was the last out of my graduating class to get married at 31. I was the only one that had actually lived a single adult life before marrying. 

I really was never all that drawn to the church virgin type of girls because I knew I was not a church virgin at heart and knew I was a horn dog so I wanted a GF that had a sex drive as well. 

But simply put, none of us really knew any better. I think I instinctively knew that if some gal was keeping me at arm's length and wouldn't let me touch her, that it wouldn't work. 

But if some cutie was rubbing all up against men and sticking her tongue down my throat and rubbing my junk through my Levi's and telling me all the things she was going to do to me..........AFTER marriage, I may have been vulnerable to that if for no other reason than I thought that is what people did. I knew premarital sex existed because I heard about it on TV and some of the older jocks had screwed their GFs in their car out on country roads, but I didn't know the whole rest of the world at large was a sexual arena. 

It wasn't until I had moved away and women were stopping by my house at all hours of the day and night that I realised there was a sexual market place out there that didn't involve getting married first. 

And yes, I totally fell hook, line and sinker for a couple gals I dated that gave me the sob story of how Chad had used them for sex and now they wanted a nice guy that wouldn't pressure them for sex. I dedicated myself to show them how asexual and nonthreatening I could be. 

Yep, they told me how nice and sweet I was and how I would make some nice girl real happy someday as they went off to screw the next Chad. I literally had one gal tell me she liked me a lot but couldn't have sex with me because I was "TOO NICE"and that she couldn't do that to me. I fell for that one a couple times and then learned my lesson.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Personal said:


> But what about the guys who can't find that and will never even experience that, regardless of whether they're single or married? Since there are lots of guys, who simply aren't particularly sexually attractive. And no amount of self help reading, sage advice, exercise or any other tripe, is ever going to turn them into something they will never be.


Unless some guy has some kind of actual disorder like Asperger's or mental illness or some kind of actual deformity or serious disfigurement, I think just about any mentally and physically healthy guy can get on the market. 

Are they going to be picking up swimsuit models?? Well, if they can reach a level of financial success to where they can have yachts in the caribbean then yes. 

But I think if a guy actually does the reps and does the work and develops himself to where he is clean and groomed, not obese nor a scrawny twig like the alien at the end of ' Close Encounters, is reasonably dressed, has a solid income and has decent enough interpersonal skills that he can carry on a meaningful conversation and express himself and have the communication skills that he and a woman can get to know each other,,,, he will be able to have a relationship with a healthy woman. 

The bar really is not as high as what we are being lead to believe on the internet. Average Joes are dating and having sex with real women in real life and they always have been. 

If a guy is willing and able to put in the reps and the work on himself, he can do it. 

Mother Nature doesn't weed out the imperfect or the average. Mother Nature weeds out the actual defective and the ones unwilling to do the work.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

hamadryad said:


> Good points made on both sides of the argument.
> 
> *I think where guys get derailed is they don't pick up on the signs.* Of course life offers no guarantees, but there are ways to stack the deck in your favor. The one thing that always sticks out is how really attracted is she to you? I think a lot of guys miss this. If at the beginning of the relationship she can't keep her hands off you, or looks at you like a dog looks at a piece of meat, then it's more than likely that it won't fall apart. The fact that she agreed to date you won't necessarily mean much.
> 
> ...


I think the bolded sentence is the key to the whole issue. If you aren't feeling an intense vibe of passion and desire coming from your partner then there is something missing and it should be a warning sign. Even with couples that want to wait till marriage you should still sense passion and deep desire. In fact the tension should be palpable since you can't scratch that itch. Guys, and women, must be missing some signal that this person just isn't passionate about me. My wife, then GF, couldn't keep her hands off me. Not always sexual, but at least sensual if you know what I mean. To this day she can't walk by me without a touch, a sensual touch. Like a soft drag of her hand across my chest or back. It is like she is always sexually interested in me even when sex isn't about to happen anytime soon. She has always been that way with me, since we started dating when I was 16. 

I like your advice for young men. I think our society is far to sex talk adverse. For so long it has been some to be kept out of sight and not talked about. I think many people feel subtly or sometime outright shamed for being sexual. I'm not talking about promiscuous behavior, but rather just loving sex with committed partner. Sex is an integral part of life. Life wouldn't exist without it, lol. Yet so little is said about it prior to you stepping into a sexual relationship. If sex is important to you then you need to make sure there is very strong mutual attraction.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Personal said:


> But what about the guys who can't find that and will never even experience that, regardless of whether they're single or married? Since there are lots of guys, who simply aren't particularly sexually attractive. And no amount of self help reading, sage advice, exercise or any other tripe, is ever going to turn them into something they will never be.


Is there an ass for every seat? I dunno...

I hear what you are saying, but lets face it, if there is one thing I have noticed about men is that they do pretty much nothing to help themselves...Maybe not the younger guys, but a lot of guys my age, that whine all the time about not getting any sex from their wives or not being able to find anyone to date(for some divorced guys I know)...

They think a woman will find them irresistible being horribly out of shape, smell bad, and a host of other undesirable attributes...no woman thinks its sexy or funny to burp and fart in her presence...etc...And if you put in your dating profile a pic of yourself armed and in camo gear, there aren't many women that will find you all that attractive(a guy I know did this, i told him I think Lauren Boebert is already taken...lol)...

It may all be for naught, but its like calling your car a piece of shyt because it broke down, but never got any service..


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

You would think that, as long as I've been on this forum and as many times as this topic has come up, that I wouldn't have to refute arguments that I have not made. Sadly, not the world we live in.

Checking your future spouse's sexual compatibility does not guarantee anything into the future. There's no crystal ball in which to gaze, no naked Wiccan ritual in the forest, no burnt offering to put on the altar and no supplication to make to Jehovah that can ensure that two people will remain compatible in any way over the life of a 5+ decade marriage. Certainly not sexually.

What "test driving" your spouse before marriage can tell you is if you are sexually *incompatible* R.F.N. If two people nominally compatible have no assurances over the long term, what are the chances that two people who cannot make it work in the lusty days of NRE are going to manage to be satisfied ever? Near zero.

Can two virgins have this conversation before marriage? I don't now - how do you feel about writing C++ embedded code for RF instrumentation? Never tried it? Well then I guess you have a pretty limited experience base to form an opinion, don't you? You probably don't even know what questions to ask of someone who has. 

All I know is that when the god of sexual compatible spouses came to my village, while I was respecting his purported wishes, he passed over my house. If your arrogance allows you to discredit that experience as not genuine or not a real concern because it didn't happen to you and your circle of close friends (whose private sex life you probably know almost nothing about), please don't drown in your own hubris.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> And in my younger days I would have totally fallen for - "All the other boys only wanted one thing and hurt me........." and I would have shown her how asexual and nonthreatening I could be all the way to the day she would leave me for some alpha Chad that would bang her up against the dumpster behind the bar within an hour of meeting.
> 
> Ah if only youth wasn't wasted on the young.


Yup, played that role to perfection. Sincerely, too, not as a grift to shoplift the pooty. 

The dumpster banging at least has not been a problem. All the talk around here about how even the most repressed woman just needs the right guy to come along to turn her into Emanuelle overnight is just so much codswallop. Some folks can like sex just fine, but never give it a second thought when they ain't doing it. Those people might make fine overall spouses, but they make for very frustrating sexual partners.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> you touched on a key feature here.
> I am talking about the people who found it EASY to wait.
> 
> I do personally know some people who had strong religious convictions and waited until marriage to have intercourse.
> ...


The couple you mention who did just about everything except PIV sex just don't get it to be honest.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> The couple you mention who did just about everything except PIV sex just don't get it to be honest.


What do you mean?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Cletus said:


> You would think that, as long as I've been on this forum and as many times as this topic has come up, that I wouldn't have to refute arguments that I have not made. Sadly, not the world we live in.
> 
> Checking your future spouse's sexual compatibility does not guarantee anything into the future. There's no crystal ball in which to gaze, no naked Wiccan ritual in the forest, no burnt offering to put on the altar and no supplication to make to Jehovah that can ensure that two people will remain compatible in any way over the life of a 5+ decade marriage. Certainly not sexually.
> 
> ...


Communication is key. We talked a lot about sex when we were dating/engaged and knew we were pretty much on the same page in seeing sex in marriage as very important to keep the marriage strong. We also knew that God says not to deprive each other of sex in marriage unless for a set time of prayer with both in agreement. Sex can really improve in marriage if both work together and are committed to each other. Neither of us had specific set things that if one wouldn't or couldn't do would be deal breakers and stop us wanting to get married or end a marriage. Marriage is about so much more than that and if both are unselfish in sex so much the better. The more we work to make sure the spouse enjoys sex the more we will enjoy it. 

As for knowing a good, healthy and functional marriage when you see one, it's really not hard, especially if you have known them both for decades. I am sure all of us here who have known married couples for 20, 30 or 40 years, are very aware of the good healthy marriages and the not so good. You can't hide things for that length of time.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> What do you mean?


If their aim was to obey God's advice and teaching for no sex before marriage then did they do that? Things like oral sex and the like are still sex, as anyone who had been cheated on by a spouse who had oral sex with someone else will know. Plus, there is always the risk that a couple messing about will cross their boundaries.
I know a young couple who before marriage were doing stuff, (not oral or even close) and God impressed on both of them the same day (but separately) that they should reign it in. They both did.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> The couples I know I have known for decades. They are definitely not staying together because of the church. Its far more acceptable to get a divorce now anyway. It's pretty easy to tell if a couple are happy or not by the way they treat each other and how they speak about each other and the general way they interact.
> My point really is that having sex before marriage and thinking you have sexual compatibility is no guarantee that it will last or that things won't change. On the other hand, those who wait have a trust in God, self-control, a real commitment to each other and God, and a desire to make things work which all bode well for a marriage.
> You can tell so much by communicating about sex and everything generally before marriage, you dont have to have sex before marriage to make a marriage work and have a good sex life.


There's a couple different concepts at play in what you wrote above. 

I agree that initial sexual compatibility in the opening acts of a relationship is no guarantee of sexual compatibility after many years of marriage and child rearing etc etc. I'm living proof of that myself. My wife of almost 27 years and I are no longer sexually compatible. 

BUT, for almost 20 of those years we were sexually exceptional and for about 10 of those years porn stars would probably be envious of us because not only were we having wild hot monkey sex, but we also had a very happy and healthy home life and family etc. 

And now we have raised both of our kids to legal adulthood with one in college and one 18 year old senior in high school. 

So while I agree that great sex during the NRE/honeymoon period or even at the 15 year mark is no guarantee of a great sex life forever, I want to direct you to @Cletus post above - if the sex is NOT good and not compatible during the NRE/Honeymoom period, y'might as well hang it up. It's only going to go downhill from there. 

Now do devoutly religious people who share the same values and beliefs and commitment to faith have lower divorce rates than the general public?? Yeah probably if they are both committed to remaining together no matter how miserable they are. And if that if remaining together despite their misery is their personal belief system and values, then so be it. 

But length of nondivorce is not my particular yardstick or metric to marital health and happiness. 

If someone tells me they've been married for 50 years but 30 of those years have been living hell, I do not count that as 50 years of productivity and that does not make a strong case for marital committment to me. 

I believe there is such a thing as toxic commitment (my term but feel free to use it) The Japanese kamikazees had toxic commitment when they drank their ceremonial saki, climbed into the cockpits and slammed themselves into the sides of allied warships. Some people do the same with relationships and marriage.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> If their aim was to obey God's advice and teaching not be sexual before marriage then did they do that? Things like oral sex and the like are still sex, as anyone who had been cheated on by a spouse who had oral sex with someone else will know.
> I know a young couple who before marriage were doing stuff, (not piv or even close) and God impressed on both of them the same day (but separately) that they should reign it in. They both did.


I'm not a scholar of the bible but I know Jesus talked a lot about loving and supporting and being faithful to your spouse and treating him/her with respect and dignity. 

However I don't know if I've ever heard where Jesus was quoted as telling people they couldn't give their fiance' a hand while wedding plans were being made.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> I think a lot depends on the environment you grew up in and basically how brainwashed you were.


Based on personal experience this plays a huge role in our view of sex for our entire life. I think it makes a very lasting impression and shouldn't be underestimated. We both had parents that strongly felt sex and marriage go together and our parents had a strong attraction for each other that started prior to marriage and continued throughout their marriage. My dad is one of those guys that married his prom date right out of HS, which like you said was the norm. They were sexually involved prior to marriage. My MIL was widowed and married my FIL when she was 3 months pregnant with my wife at age 40, so yeah they were having sex prior to marriage, lol. 

I think this is a big reason why my wife and I have not had sexual compatibility issues. We grew up in an environment where physical attraction between husband and wife was ever present. My mom is the one that taught me sex in marriage is important. Early on in my marriage my mom would straight up ask me how our sex life was and reiterate how important she thought it was. I obviously didn't grow up with my wife's parents, but in probably 1 out of every 2 pictures of them my MIL would be sitting on my FIL's lap with their arms wrapped around each other and they were kissing. They weren't shy about putting their physical attraction on display. Don't get me wrong, I wasn't some savant that found my perfect match based on this criteria. I was just a horny 16 year old when I met my future wife. I truly just got lucky to have met her and once we had sex I was hooked. 

Here's a story that speaks volumes about the environment I grew up in. How's this for an intro? My wife and I were completely naked (under covers) in bed together the first time my mom met my future wife.  My mom knew I had a girl I was hanging around with, but had not met her yet and we hadn't talked too much about her. She only knew her name, that she graduated from HS the year prior and where she worked. I brought my GF of a few months home late one night and she spent the night. My parents left very early, like 4am, for work so they would leave without waking me up to say good bye. So after a night of having sex we were sleeping together, naked, in my bed. I was notorious for skipping school at that time in my life, I was a Junior in HS. I planned to spend the day in bed with my GF because she didn't work that day, but the school called my mom while she was at work to let her know I wasn't there. She left work to come home, rip me a new one and send me to school. She burst into my room. She looked at me, then looked at my wife, who was trying to shrink away under the covers likely wishing she could just disappear. My mom, without skipping a beat, then proceeded to chew me out for not being in school. Didn't say one word about the girl in my bed. She told me to get out of bed and get dressed. As we got dressed my wife was freaking out. No ****, right? lol We came out of the room, went down stairs and my mom said, "so, you must be Xxxxxx." That was their intro. She told me to go to school and that we would talk alter, but right now she wanted to talk to my GF. I don't know what all was said between them, but my mom ended up falling in love with her faster than I did. When I got home the first thing she asked me was if we were using protection, which we were, and if I felt serious about this girl, which I did. Then she just said, "You have that girl's heart in your hands, if you hurt her I will beat you within an inch of your life." Somewhat joking about the beating of course, but the message was loud and clear. It is my understanding that my dad's mom said something similar to him when he started dating my mom.

Don't think this means our parents thought promiscuity was okay. Even though they didn't believe in waiting till marriage, they did believe sex is a special thing that was for people in a committed relationship. It wasn't something to be given away freely. I think growing up in an environment that is not only accepting of the fact that sex is a part of life/marriage, but really celebrates it, has given my wife and I a life long gift of mutual sexual pleasure and satisfaction. I guess I should call my mom and thank her, lol. Actually, I already have. I've told her a several occasions about how thankful I am for that.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> Communication is key. We talked a lot about sex when we were dating/engaged and knew we were pretty much on the same page in seeing sex in marriage as very important to keep the marriage strong.


This is your _second _marriage. I too would have no difficulty having that conversation with a second prospective wife today because I have the experience on which to base an opinion.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Here's a story that speaks volumes about the environment I grew up in. How's this for an intro? My wife and I were completely naked (under covers) in bed together the first time my mom met my future wife.


My parents found out I was sneaking out of the house at 17 to visit my high school girlfriend at night. I was immediately grounded, we were forbidden to see each other alone ever again, and her parents considered levelling statuatory rape charges (she was more than a year younger). 

That's the environment I grew up in. Fortunately, it didn't stick so well. My children got a box of condoms and a conversation about being safe and respectful when the moment finally game.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

But @Diana7 , I am not really intending this to turn into a theological debate.

My point is I believe there are a variety of signs and indicators that can point to whether someone is or is not into sex and is or is not into their partner even in the absence of PIV intercourse prior to marriage (so do not believe there is and think that sex SHOULD always come before marriage. I'm at least open to people following their beliefs and convictions)

The signs of interest I noted above and the signs of disinterest I have noted above as well. 

What I question is whether hormone fueled young lads that grew up in conservative environments will be able to discern the two. 

And I guess I shouldn't make it sexist, the same can happen with men too and is perhaps even more telling if a man seems perfectly content to not be having any kind of contact. 

This is kind of the topic of my other thread on sex selection but I want to mention it here as well. I can tell there are people that select their spouse based on how NONsexual their partner is and how much they value their partners LACK of sexual interest and experience. 

They in essence value their partner's asexuality lack of sexual spirit and then they come here whining that they have been married a year and still have not consumated the marriage or that their partner got a couple kids out of them but now hasn't touched them in 5 years. 

Well yeah duh. It's because you picked them due to their lack of sexual spirit and now you are whining that they never want to have sex with you. Well jeez, who would've seen that one coming


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Cletus said:


> My parents found out I was sneaking out of the house at 17 to visit my high school girlfriend at night. I was immediately grounded, we were forbidden to see each other alone ever again, and her parents considered levelling statuatory rape charges (she was more than a year younger).


That never happened to me directly. I mainly got lectured by my school marm mother about not knocking anyone up. but very similar things happened with kids I grew up with.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Ive also long contended that because we weren't biologically programmed to be sexually monogamous for long periods of time, the forces needed to overcome that urge have to be very strong....Like Iron Clad strong...

That's why if you are a sexual person, and predict you will be for a long time, then you better be realistic about the person you choose, so that you don't wind up in the situation a lot of people wind up in...Still won't be a guarantee, but it better be like almost #1 on the list of criteria ..


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> Communication is key. We talked a lot about sex when we were dating/engaged and knew we were pretty much on the same page in seeing sex in marriage as very important to keep the marriage strong. We also knew that God says not to deprive each other of sex in marriage unless for a set time of prayer with both in agreement. Sex can really improve in marriage if both work together and are committed to each other. Neither of us had specific set things that if one wouldn't or couldn't do would be deal breakers and stop us wanting to get married or end a marriage. Marriage is about so much more than that and if both are unselfish in sex so much the better. The more we work to make sure the spouse enjoys sex the more we will enjoy it.
> 
> As for knowing a good, healthy and functional marriage when you see one, it's really not hard, especially if you have known them both for decades. I am sure all of us here who have known married couples for 20, 30 or 40 years, are very aware of the good healthy marriages and the not so good. You can't hide things for that length of time.


That kind of discussion was exponentially easier for you too because you had 20+ years of life experience, including marriage, under your belt. That is not going to come easily to young adults with no life experience. Think back to when you met your first husband. Did you have those same discussions?


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> I'm not a scholar of the bible but I know Jesus talked a lot about loving and supporting and being faithful to your spouse and treating him/her with respect and dignity.
> 
> However I don't know if I've ever heard where Jesus was quoted as telling people they couldn't give their fiance' a hand while wedding plans were being made.


It comes down to how you define sex. Sex is for a husband and wife, period. That is crystal clear in the Bible. It doesn't define what sex is, but if you take what you are saying here to the end of the line then you could give every guy in your class a handy and still be virtuous in the eyes of Jesus. Somehow I don't think that was the intent. We can argue over what is sex, but I hope everyone agree that if you bring another person to orgasm, you've engage in sex.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

BigDaddyNY said:


> That kind of discussion was exponentially easier for you too because you had 20+ years of life experience, including marriage, under your belt. That is not going to come easily to young adults with no life experience. Think back to when you met your first husband. Did you have those same discussions?


22 year old me: Do you want to have sex after we get married?
My fiancé: Yes
Me: Here's the ring. 

We were active in and married in a church. They required us to take a marriage course led by another married couple. We talked about family dynamics, money, conflict, and everything under the sun EXCEPT sex.


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## BootsAndJeans (4 mo ago)

It played no part in our decision to get married. We were each other's first, on our honeymoon. We discovered sexual intimacy together. In the 40 years we have been together, it has fluctuated, but my decision to marry her and stay married to her is not dependent upon sex. Sexual intimacy is important, but as we have aged, it has changed. To me, and to my wife, sex has never been a thing unto itself. Sexual intimacy for us has always been about a expression of our love for each other. Sure, there were times when were younger, we were like rabbits in heat, but those times have diminished. What we have now is deeper and more intimate than ever.


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## Julie's Husband (Jan 3, 2022)

This is all very interesting. And foreign to me. My relationship with my wife to be was all about who she was as a person. I just assumed sex would be part of a relationship, but that was not the attraction. 

Even after being dragged off to bed by other women, I still had a "don't flirt, don't touch" approach. I did not physically touch her for any reason during the time we were getting to know each other, including an overnight trip to the Ren Faire. She recently told me that at that time it had crossed her mind I might be gay as I seemed to be afraid to touch her. 

Nope, just needed expressed heartfelt permission. After that we lived together for a little over a year before "eloping".


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> But @Diana7 ,
> 
> What I question is whether hormone fueled young lads that grew up in conservative environments will be able to discern the two.


To expand upon this further, a nerdy young man in a conservative environment has been brought up that girls are relatively asexual by nature and that the good ones are even more pure and virtuous and just the fact that a girl is talking to him and letting him side hug her and kiss her on the cheek is a dream girl to him in that moment. 

10 years down the road with a couple screaming kids and she hasn't touched him in 3 years, Dream Girl is now Nightmare Woman. 

Can 20 year olds talk about sex? Yes, they can. The conversation goes like this -

Girl - I believe in Jesus so I'm not having sex until I'm married.

Boy - OK I can wait. Will have sex after we are married?

Girl - I want to have 3 babies, 2 girls and 1 boy.

Boy - AWESOME!!! WE'RE GONNA HAVE SEX!!!!!! (at least 3 times even!!!!  ) 

These young church virgins and beta nice guys just simply do not have the self awareness and wisdom and life experience and communication skills to actually determine sexual compatibility through verbal discussion alone. 

Tell a 20 year old nice guy that grew up in a conservative environment that he can have sex if he puts a ring on it and he is good to go. 

And I don't want to demonize girls here. I don't think this is gender wide conspiracy of bait and switch. 

Girls are not raised to believe that Prince Charming will ride up to the bar on his Harley in tight jeans and leather chaps and will make her jay-jay tingle so much she will blow him in the bathroom or bang him on bathroom counter. 

She's told that Prince Charming will fall in love with her beauty and her poise and he will marry her and support her and give her everything she wants in the kingdom and and live happily ever after. Nothing is ever said about HER attraction and desire. She's told that as long as Prince Charming falls in love with her, they will live happily ever after and things will just magically fall into place.......as long as they are married. 

Marriage is often touted as the cure. But rarely identified as the disease.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Julie's Husband said:


> This is all very interesting. And foreign to me. My relationship with my wife to be was all about who she was as a person. I just assumed sex would be part of a relationship, but that was not the attraction.


Then you rolled the dice in exactly the same way as I did. Right down to the fact that your spouse wondered about your sexuality before you were married because you were so restrained. Sex was never the entire package - if it were, I would be divorced today. Your dice roll came up 7 - you both wanted sex and started with or came to a mutually satisfying definition of what means for a sexually fulfilling relationship. 

Even if this happens for 90% of the population, I still call it "getting lucky". You assumed, and it all worked out.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

There really is no boilerplate answer...

I know couples that probably haven't had sex after Clinton left office and they are completely happy...No two are the same...Ive often said that high drive people, in general, are cursed...They will seemingly never be satisfied,( or rarely).. and will constantly be questioning everything...

I think life is happier and more content for the non sexual people...


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Cletus said:


> 22 year old me: Do you want to have sex after we get married?
> My fiancé: Yes
> Me: Here's the ring.
> 
> We were active in and married in a church. They required us to take a marriage course led by another married couple. We talked about family dynamics, money, conflict, and everything under the sun EXCEPT sex.


You and I were posting our youthful dialogues at the same time but were basically saying the same thing. 

Tell a young man he's going to have sex (at all) and he's good to go. 

Tell a young girl she's going to be married and she thinks all will be well. 

Some times I think the churches and society intentionally brainwashes our youth because if they knew the reality, most of them wouldn't do it.


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## BootsAndJeans (4 mo ago)

oldshirt said:


> You and I were posting our youthful dialogues at the same time but were basically saying the same thing.
> 
> Tell a young man he's going to have sex (at all) and he's good to go.
> 
> ...


I think a good deal of the issue is that people now are disconnected from nature in general. People in earlier times mainly grew up on farms and around animals. They knew what sex was at an early age. 

Part of the this disconnect, I feel, bleeds over into our society. Religious or otherwise, people do not talk about the complexities of sex and intimacy in a marriage in pre-marriage classes. Sure, there is sex education, but it does not generally address the mental and emotional aspects. We went through pre-marriage classes at our church, and there was little to nothing about sexual intimacy and managing expectations. Sex, in humans at least, is more than just a physical act for most people. Like above, as a young man, I was intensely interested in having sex. As I have aged, I realized this biological drive had to be managed and to learn that intimacy is much more than just sex.


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## Longtime Hubby (7 mo ago)

Cant put a % on it, but it is large factor. No doubt. Need to be compatible in The Bedroom!


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## Julie's Husband (Jan 3, 2022)

Cletus said:


> Then you rolled the dice in exactly the same way as I did. Right down to the fact that your spouse wondered about your sexuality before you were married because you were so restrained. Sex was never the entire package - if it were, I would be divorced today. Your dice roll came up 7 - you both wanted sex and started with or came to a mutually satisfying definition of what means for a sexually fulfilling relationship.
> 
> Even if this happens for 90% of the population, I still call it "getting lucky". You assumed, and it all worked out.


Actually there is a little more to it than that.

When we were getting to know each other we spent months just talking and talking for hours and hours. I perceived that she was much more socially and sexually outgoing than I and knew she'd had previous experience. I kept the relationship platonic because I was new to the game and didn't know what might offend.

One night when she came to my apartment I worried that she might be too tired to safely drive home so offered to let her stay the night pretty much expecting her to just sleep through the night. Turns out she had trouble sleeping (😉) and kept me awake most of the night.

I would have married her on the spot, but at that time she was uncertain whether she would stay in the US or go back home to Australia or to friends in Germany so we moved in together and I left her free to make whatever decision she wanted. It was not about testing compatibility.

In the end it was not the luck of the draw. We had built a very strong relationship.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Julie's Husband said:


> One night when she came to my apartment I worried that she might be too tired to safely drive home so offered to let her stay the night pretty much expecting her to just sleep through the night. Turns out she had trouble sleeping (😉) and kept me awake most of the night.


So what would have happened if, on that sleepless night, she had turned out to be a dud in bed? Or could only enjoy it if you were wearing nipple clamps and a ballgag?


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## Julie's Husband (Jan 3, 2022)

Cletus said:


> So what would have happened if, on that sleepless night, she had turned out to be a dud in bed? Or could only enjoy it if you were wearing nipple clamps and a ballgag?


That would have presented some interesting questions. It would depend on how much I actually was into her. 

The current situation is that she has not been physically able to have intercourse for over 25 years. We have had to grow, learn and adapt. I guess if we had started off dud or weird, growing, learning and adapting might have been an option there as well. Dunno. There was enough drama as it was.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> I'm not a scholar of the bible but I know Jesus talked a lot about loving and supporting and being faithful to your spouse and treating him/her with respect and dignity.
> 
> However I don't know if I've ever heard where Jesus was quoted as telling people they couldn't give their fiance' a hand while wedding plans were being made.


There really isnt any wiggle room on abstaining from sex before marriage. To be oral or similar is definitely sex.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> You and I were posting our youthful dialogues at the same time but were basically saying the same thing.
> 
> Tell a young man he's going to have sex (at all) and he's good to go.
> 
> ...


Today few people get married as young as they did when I was young. Rarely do young immature 18 year olds get married now so the old excuse of not knowing much or being worldly enough doesn't really wash. Having said that I know quite a few couples who did marry very young who had good happy marriages.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> Today few people get married as young as they did when I was young. Rarely do young immature 18 year olds get married now so the old excuse of not knowing much or being worldly enough doesn't really wash. Having said that I know quite a few couples who did marry very young who had good happy marriages.


The kids that I was talking about above had just turned 20 so there are still people marrying young. 

They're nice kids and I am sure they will do well for a while. After 10, 15, 20 years?? Who knows. All bets are off for everyone after that time. 

And I know a number of people that married back when I was young and they are seeming to do fine. But it was a different time and different culture then and it was a time and place and culture that supported marrying you and dying old together. 

I would never encourage any woman under 25 and without some kind of professional credentialing that would support her or any man under 30 or without an established livable career to marry today.


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## Bulfrog1987 (Oct 8, 2021)

This is definitely an interesting topic for me now that I and single again. I married because I was young and naive. I know, my late husband married me because I was moldable and he made me into ex’s toy what he wanted me to be. Though I believe deep down he had desire to please me, it was never for my own benefit but to boost his ego as a male. There’s a huge difference in the act when desire to please your partner is the driving force and not your own pleasure. If you’re pleased by pleasing your spouse well, that’s good too but shouldn’t be the only reason.

Now comes the hard part. I don’t want to be jumping in the sack for a test run of the next love that comes into my life. My values have changed yet in the same breath, I need to know sexually it will work. HOW do people do this? Idk. Anyway.

It’s important.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Bulfrog1987 said:


> Now comes the hard part. I don’t want to be jumping in the sack for a test run of the next love that comes into my life. My values have changed yet in the same breath, I need to know sexually it will work. HOW do people do this? Idk. Anyway.
> 
> It’s important.


At least in your case, you have some understanding of the questions to ask. So you need to have a very necessary but potentially uncomfortable conversation. That should be seen as a good thing by both sides.

I would caution though that all you know right now are the known unknowns - you know what bothered you about your last spouse, but you may be blind to the "unknown unknowns". Something about a new partner's sexual preferences that neither of you even thinks to discuss because it is either a given or a complete "I never thought of that".

For example, I would today make sure that I asked a new sexual partner "do you like to be touched sexually". I did not know that this was a question that had any answer other than "yes" until I married someone who did not. You can get most of the way to understanding through words, but you might not discover what you don't even consider asking.


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## Bulfrog1987 (Oct 8, 2021)

Cletus said:


> At least in your case, you have some understanding of the questions to ask. So you need to have a very necessary but potentially uncomfortable conversation. That should be seen as a good thing by both sides.
> 
> I would caution though that all you know right now are the known unknowns - you know what bothered you about your last spouse, but you may be blind to the "unknown unknowns". Something about a new partner's sexual preferences that neither of you even thinks to discuss because it is either a given or a complete "I never thought of that".
> 
> For example, I would today make sure that I asked a new sexual partner "do you like to be touched sexually". I did not know that this was a question that had any answer other than "yes" until I married someone who did not. You can get most of the way to understanding through words, but you might not discover what you don't even consider asking.


My BRAIN! lol.. Never thought about it that way and that sounds scary lol. Like, I too would never have thought about the possibility of not being able to touch my spouse sexually. Like WHAAAAAA? 😧 I mean, the majority of men, would never say that. But I don't know, how do you marry a guy and expect him to not want to touch you or be touched sexually????


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Bulfrog1987 said:


> This is definitely an interesting topic for me now that I and single again. I married because I was young and naive. I know, my late husband married me because I was moldable and he made me into ex’s toy what he wanted me to be. Though I believe deep down he had desire to please me, it was never for my own benefit but to boost his ego as a male. There’s a huge difference in the act when desire to please your partner is the driving force and not your own pleasure. If you’re pleased by pleasing your spouse well, that’s good too but shouldn’t be the only reason.
> 
> Now comes the hard part. I don’t want to be jumping in the sack for a test run of the next love that comes into my life. My values have changed yet in the same breath, I need to know sexually it will work. HOW do people do this? Idk. Anyway.
> 
> It’s important.


That is a question that is probably worthy of it's own thread. 

What values have changed? Is not wanting to "test run" a religious belief of more of a personal conviction? 

Here is a question for you to ponder - will someone even be able to be a "next love" for you if there is not a sexual component to your relationship?

That was one of the religious dilemmas for me (well actually it was not really a religious dilemma for me since I was not particularly religious. But if I was religious, it would have been a dilemma) because in order for me to actually love someone and for me to actually want to be with someone and partnered with someone and share my life with them, there would have to be sexual chemistry and compatibility and if that connection wasn't there, then I would not want to be with them. 

So for me, no-sex-before-marriage is completely a non sequitur as I would not even want to be with someone in the first place if there was not a bona fide sexual connection in place. 

But your mileage may vary. 

So I am just curious what values have changed and what role does sexual compatibility really going to play in your next relationship? 

I do think that whether your convictions are theology based or whether they are personal does make a difference.


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## Bulfrog1987 (Oct 8, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> That is a question that is probably worthy of it's own thread.
> 
> What values have changed? Is not wanting to "test run" a religious belief of more of a personal conviction?
> 
> ...


It is probably a mixture of both religious AND personal conviction. Let me anger and shock some peeps up in here who aren't familiar with me.. I had an affair three years into my marriage at 23 years old (maybe 22?) worst decision of my life. Anyhow, this particular man I never fully shook from my memory. I did everything I could to separate myself from him and the affair, no contact, quit my job, we eventually moved to another state for a job offer my late husband had been given at the time. More than 12 years has passed and I still think about him. 

I say all that to make a point (and it may just be my personal experience) but I feel, sexually when I'm with someone, an exchange is made I can never get back. He has a part of me and I have a part of him. I'm not comfortable in just spreading that around in that way. I value what I have to give more than just given it away and then biblically speaking, sex being made for a married couple is the other hang up. That is all. 

For the record I'm not wanting to hijack this thread!


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Bulfrog1987 said:


> It is probably a mixture of both religious AND personal conviction. Let me anger and shock some peeps up in here who aren't familiar with me.. I had an affair three years into my marriage at 23 years old (maybe 22?) worst decision of my life. Anyhow, this particular man I never fully shook from my memory. I did everything I could to separate myself from him and the affair, no contact, quit my job, we eventually moved to another state for a job offer my late husband had been given at the time. More than 12 years has passed and I still think about him.
> 
> I say all that to make a point (and it may just be my personal experience) but I feel, sexually when I'm with someone, an exchange is made I can never get back. He has a part of me and I have a part of him. I'm not comfortable in just spreading that around in that way. I value what I have to give more than just given it away and then biblically speaking, sex being made for a married couple is the other hang up. That is all.
> 
> For the record I'm not wanting to hijack this thread!


It's my thread and I will give you leeway because I do think it is completely germane to the topic and not a hijack at all. It's what the thread is about. 

I don't think anyone here including myself has ever said anything about "spreading that around" in any way. But rather the question posed was how much consideration does sexual chemistry and compatibility play into your selection process for a mate. 

So let's go back to 23 year old Bullfrog. I am assuming you were not out "spreading that around" when you got with that guy. 

I'm making a lot of assumptions and extrapolations here so you can correct me where I am wrong, but I am going to assume you some how met this man, were around him and interacted with him to varying social degrees and found him to be attractive and appealing on a number of different levels and in time someone made the nudge and the wink and pointed towards the bedroom (figuratively speaking) and once behind closed doors kunka chinka kunka chinka. 

From there the attraction and desire and chemistry etc exploded and things got hot and heavy and the chemistry was electric. 

OK so stay with me here,,, If you had been single and available,, and he had been single and available, COULD things have turned out differently?

If you weren't already married, would you have still thought of him as your dirty little secret that you would only interact with behind closed doors, or would you have considered him for an honest relationship? 

So did you pick him to hook up with because you liked him and thought he might have a good connection with you - or did you get with him because he was NOT a potentially good match for you and he was just a dirty little secret right from the start and that was his place all along? 

Where I am going with this is, going forward with you as a single woman, will you be targeting guys that you know are not a good match for you and who will just be a dirty little secret to fulfil your purient desires behind closed doors?

Or are you going to be out meeting and interacting with people on a normal basis and some will catch your eye and things simply develop and nature takes it's course. 

I mean it's kind of like you are fearing the ramifications of wanton, unbridled promiscuity,,, but have you ever been wantonly and indescriminently promiscuous?? 

Because your affair was no accident either way. Unless you were raped or drugged, it wasn't something that happened to you. You either picked him because you met and interacted and hit it off and an attraction and desire grew. 

Or you were horny and wanting some side action on the side and behind closed doors and you picked him because he was hot and sexy and assured you secrecy. 

Either way it was a conscious action and choice and you had agency of selection, so why would not have that same agency and choice now going foward as a single woman. 

I mean either you are getting with some guy because you like him and he brings value to your life and you want to be with him going forward.

Or you get with some guy to scratch a private itch behind closed doors that you keep a dirty little secret. 

But either way it's by your own choice to serve a particular purpose. 

So what are you fearing and why are you fearing it now is the question. And since you have clearly stated in this thread as well as in others that sexuality IS important to you, why are you fearing using it as an actual selection criteria??


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## Bulfrog1987 (Oct 8, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> It's my thread and I will give you leeway because I do think it is completely germane to the topic and not a hijack at all. It's what the thread is about.
> 
> I don't think anyone here including myself has ever said anything about "spreading that around" in any way. But rather the question posed was how much consideration does sexual chemistry and compatibility play into your selection process for a mate.
> 
> ...


I cannot answer that question but you make completely logical and important points in the entries response


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

i told my wife (GF at the time that i had a very high sex drive...very high and i told her if she was not compatable with me it was okay and we could go our separate way....she told me she was the same and so she was while we were dating but the minute we got married she start to slow it down and when i told her i felt like i was sold a bill of goods she said sex is not the most important thing in the marraige and i said maybe but when you are not getting it....it definitely is....


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Lostinthought61 said:


> she told me she was the same and so she was while we were dating but the minute we got married she start to slow it down and when i told her i felt like i was sold a bill of goods she said sex is not the most important thing in the marraige and i said maybe but when you are not getting it....it definitely is....


My reply when told something similar was, "maybe not, but it's something very important for me in MY marriage."


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## Julie's Husband (Jan 3, 2022)

Ha! I told my wife about this thread. I told her that I had none of this in mind when I started spending time with her, I was just taken by her as a person, that her past was unimportant other than it made her the woman I desired.

She replied that she'd never get married without a "test drive". 😮 Well, THAT was a surprise, even though she was the original initiator in our relationship.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Julie's Husband said:


> Ha! I told my wife about this thread. I told her that I had none of this in mind when I started spending time with her, I was just taken by her as a person, that her past was unimportant other than it made her the woman I desired.
> 
> She replied that she'd never get married without a "test drive". 😮 Well, THAT was a surprise, even though she was the original initiator in our relationship.


I think people often use the term test drive as some kind of perjorative or at least somewhat negative connotation. 

But lets look at test drives with a little more critical eye. 

Test driving actually places additional risk onto the dealer. Complete strangers are coming in and taking their merchandise out onto the streets. Sure they make copies of your drivers license and insurance, but still, they are just going off your word that you will drive their car nicely and not wreck it. 

People don't always test drive cars off the lot nicely, they often push them to see what their performance limits are. They could give fake IDs and false credentials and take off with the car. Some have used test drives as getaway vehicles to rob banks and liquor stores. They could wreck them, they could total them, they could hurt other people who come back on the dealership with their deeper pockets. 

All in all, there is quite a bit of risk to the dealers in letting people test drive, but the moment a salesperson sees you eyeing a car closely, they are trying to give you the keys and almost demanding you get behind the wheel and take it for a spin - Why????

Because they know that statistically, if they can get someone to drive it, they will want to buy it more often than any harm will come from it. 

They get more benefit from allowing people to test drive than liability from the pitfalls from it. 

And often times, it's the test drive that makes you picture it in your driveway and picture yourself driving it around and showing it to your friends and family and what makes you want to actually obtain it in the first place. 

Before you got behind the wheel and drove it down the street, it was just one of many shiny new cars sitting on the lot that happened to catch your eye.


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## Longtime Hubby (7 mo ago)

oldshirt said:


> I think people often use the term test drive as some kind of perjorative or at least somewhat negative connotation.
> 
> But lets look at test drives with a little more critical eye.
> 
> ...


“Baby, you can drive my car” - The Beatles


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Lostinthought61 said:


> i told my wife (GF at the time that i had a very high sex drive...very high and i told her if she was not compatable with me it was okay and we could go our separate way....she told me she was the same and so she was while we were dating but the minute we got married she start to slow it down and when i told her i felt like i was sold a bill of goods she said sex is not the most important thing in the marraige and i said maybe but when you are not getting it....it definitely is....


That she is still your wife, despite winding down the sex you shared. Proves that sharing plenty of sex with her, wasn't that important to you.

Of which, considering the fact your words before marriage, didn't reflect your actions afterwards. It shouldn't be a surprise to you, that your wife's actions after marriage, didn't reflect her before marriage words and actions.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Julie's Husband said:


> She replied that she'd never get married without a "test drive".


In other words, your wife was no fool on this.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Personal said:


> In other words, your wife was no fool on this.


At least one of them was thinking with the little head.


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## Julie's Husband (Jan 3, 2022)

oldshirt said:


> At least one of them was thinking with the little head.


Well, she got a little over a year's worth of test drive and became upset that I was not moving the relationship into something permanent. I was very shy and cautious about pushing too hard.

That was almost 45 years ago.


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