# May be a record here… longest time for a head in the sand?



## TrueToMe (Jun 6, 2016)

1/3
I am writing in search of some solid TAM opinions; I’ll leave it to you whether it’s in the form of 2x4s to D or well-reasoned urgings to R. On re-reading this, I believe it calls for the former, but at present I am lingering under the same roof; no longer in the same bedroom. Instead of a 180 I think I’m around a 100 or so  

Perhaps this is my last act of ‘trying everything possible’ to avoid what to many might seem like D material. I’m incredulous, embarrassed, for how I could have rugswept for so long. Trying to give my head a shake, now.

[aside] After following TAM for about a year and a half, I confess to a twisted envy of those whose WSs have owned up to/confessed to their ‘indiscretions’. I apologize if that sounds trite, I don’t mean it to be. It just seems decisions are so much clearer, second-guessing is not an issue. It’s like I’m wishing to find some good old PA evidence, as if that would exonerate me in a decision to D. As my IC said, I originally appeared to be looking for ammo.

I’ll try to make this point form or it’ll break the internet. Details available on request 

1)	33 years together, married 29. 

2)	I’m 58, wife 56. I’m a flaming co-dependent, poster-boy NG (rageaholic father, three sisters, no bros, yadda yadda yadda). I’m embarrassed at how I’ve likely enabled my WW through my self-denial etc.

3)	Two sons, 22 & 19—the younger has multiple special needs and it’s anyone’s guess if he’ll be able to live independently.

4)	WW has mostly completed her main cancer treatments; the mass first detected within about three frickin’ weeks from when I first confronted her, summer of 2016. Talk about another mind-cuss… I (co-dependently?) chose to put things on hold to be her Sherpa through the main ordeal. My IC said not to wait too long—to her befuddling credit, she said so too!—so I eased back into the hard topics with her a few months ago.

5)	In late 1990s we moved to US from Canada for 6.5 years (my work) during which time she was a SAHM. Previously she’d been a teacher, a strong role with which she identified deeply, and I think contributed to her implosion...


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## TrueToMe (Jun 6, 2016)

2/3

6)	WW is ‘apparently’ a CSA survivor, with undiagnosed BPD-waif/NPD traits. She has had at least three or four EAs (that I know of), one or two of which she has nearly-almost-passively acknowledged/apologized for. She professed devotion and love (maternal(!?)) for one of them in her diaries (before you cry Ethics!... I read these while she was out ‘recovering’ with him in Al-Anon meetings—against my protestations—and secretive daytime ‘dates’), comparing my spiritual life(!) negatively to him, etc. The Al-Anon involvement was ostensibly due to her dry-drunk parents. I think she also thrived on others’ problems and the spotlight she received for hers.

7)	A couple of months prior to our Big Move a dear friend of ours killed himself. Everyone went through their mourning processes, whereas my WW was sent in a tailspin, and she hasn’t been the same since. We’ve always agreed our first decade together was a swan dive, until we had our first child, the suicide, the out-of-country move, the revelation of the CSA all came in fairly close succession. 

8)	She thrives on the ego kibbling of attention from men. Has told me that she was raised to believe all men deserve respect and attention, that setting firm boundaries is akin to rudeness. Wow.

9)	She’s said “How can I know I’ve done something wrong if you haven’t taught me, haven’t set boundaries?” Blameshifting. And it smacks of an adult-child relationship, an abdication of her responsibilities. I’ve maintained the sort of things she’s done & said should be things any decent mate would have the common sense to just know. And how can I say something pushes too far if she lies & keeps it a secret from me?! And heck, if I came up with a detailed list of boundaries: she’d rail against me being controlling, the “man is in charge”.

10)	Her disrespect was apparent (and I admit I ‘asked’ for it by being unconditionally loving and then living in denial—the safest of NGs) in how she’s manipulated the relationship in the past, emotionally blackmailing me into ‘supporting her recovery’ by allowing her to set her agenda for who/what/where she would seek validations.


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## TrueToMe (Jun 6, 2016)

3/3

11)	WW has lied about the most flagrant things, right up to recent weeks; I had her write out the ‘TAM Timeline’… it contained only what I’d unearthed, so of course I can’t help but wonder if I’ll always be in tip-of-the-iceberg territory. 

12)	WW seems more regretful than remorseful. She has said I owe her nothing… what mate wants to hear that?!

13)	I believe she is practically waiting for punishment; she’s alluded to the notion that if there are no consequences, then she hasn’t done anything wrong. She has said, at numerous points when I’ve confronted her, comments along the lines of “I suppose you want to hit me now…” I have never struck her, nor even raised a hand—that just isn’t going to happen.

14)	No shortage of blameshifting… manipulating The Narrative of our couplehood, making it out to be ‘we have marital trust issues’. In fact, I believe she cannot trust me with her truths… if I knew everything her toxic shame would kick in and that is not an option. She’s always maintained one of my main appeals was I felt safe for her (great. It’s pretty obvious why, given my five-star NG rating). 

15)	… this follows with her stated M.O. of never having shared her deepest feelings with me, because she can’t trust I won’t hold her revelations against her. Claims its her FOO model. I can’t argue; MIL is quite a liar/manipulator. A case in point from long ago: she confided in me how, because he was being belligerent, she locked our then-5 y.o. in the parking lot while she went in for a few groceries. I said this was wrong/illegal; not the way to handle her stressful situation; she needs help… she said something along the lines of “See?! Why should I share important things with you?”!!

I’ll stop for now to keep this from ballooning further.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

What are you asking?
There is not a man alive who deserves this treatment,is that what you want to hear.
Your name says a lot by the way.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Ago you still can't admit to yourself that your wife has been banging other dudes?

That's the first step.

Or did I 
It's that? I thought you claimed they were all emotional affairs. Yet she snuck out to "al/anon" meetings and daytime dates with him. Yeah, you're being cuckolded.

Now do something about it.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Find a curb and kick her to it.

BAM — consequences.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

I have a dear friend, now divorced from her serial cheater H, who insisted on finding concrete evidence of PAs, too. It was torturous to witness. 

Nevermind she found his chats with other women, texts from other women at odd hours, he was "helping a co-worker through her divorce", then she had contracted an STD (that's when she finally woke up). But it was a looong road. About 7 years of that cheater-speak crap. 

She would always tell me, "I want to be able to say that I tried everything to make it work."

That's hard for me to understand. Why would you run toward a burning building when you should be high tailing it out of there and saving yourself?

You, like my dear friend, are parsing this out to the extreme.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Has she had counselling for the CSA?


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## Mario Kempes (Jun 12, 2010)

What's CSA, Matt?


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)




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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Have you considered learning domination? Maybe some spanking could help?

I'm actually serious. It works for some folks.


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

Divorce and get tested. Sorry for all you've been through. As always, VAR the b!tch. You need to plan this out in a logical manner. Place the VARs in the most common places she's alone. Make sure it's inconspicuous and secured with velcro. Start setting up a f*ck you fund ASAP in slow increments. If she asks, say you're doing a new hobby (make one up). Tell her video recording. She's prob. too dense to even pick it up. Make sure you act the same to her as you always have been. As always, go to the best lawyers in the county NOW for a consultation. Why? Then they cannot legally be hers.

Time to become Maxwell Smart.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

I don't suppose she is willing to take a polygraph to save this marriage would she? of course not...because she does not want the truth to be known, and your willing to buy it....i honestly can't tell who is more in denial you or her...sooner or later someone has to make a move this stalemate just ain't working.


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## scaredlion (Mar 4, 2017)

At 58 years old and 29 years of marriage to the wife you describe, it is way past time to put on you "big boy pants" and take charge of your life. Don't ask the questions you want answer to, demand answers. It's either answers or she can go be vague somewhere else with someone else. At your age you can either conjure up the "alpha male" inside you or resolve to remain in the same situation you are in now until they close the lid on your coffin. You are being cheated out of the life you want. Do something that she doesn't expect. I do wish you well.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*It's so rather obvious that you have lived your entire married life in a state of hell!

Finish implementing the 180 and divorce yourself from it!

Enough said!*


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

Man up- put a fork in your bloated corpse of a marriage and go 50/50 in the divorce.

You can do it.


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## TrueToMe (Jun 6, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> What are you asking?
> There is not a man alive who deserves this treatment,is that what you want to hear.
> Your name says a lot by the way.


Good point, Andy... what _is it_ I'm asking? Apologies for the vagueness. Maybe I just needed to write this out to really see it for myself. It's looking pretty lop-sided, and the onus is on me to crawl out of this; nobody's going to do it for me. I get that. 
Next step for me is to harden the heart; a lot went well through those years.



Evinrude58 said:


> Ago you still can't admit to yourself that your wife has been banging other dudes?
> 
> That's the first step.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Evinrude... with Andy, that makes a couple of 2x4s



GusPolinski said:


> Find a curb and kick her to it.
> 
> BAM — consequences.


... and Gus makes it three 



lucy999 said:


> I have a dear friend, now divorced from her serial cheater H, who insisted on finding concrete evidence of PAs, too. It was torturous to witness.
> 
> Nevermind she found his chats with other women, texts from other women at odd hours, he was "helping a co-worker through her divorce", then she had contracted an STD (that's when she finally woke up). But it was a looong road. About 7 years of that cheater-speak crap.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Lucy999. To answer your question (and keep on the too-hot theme)... I believe I am the real life version of the frog in water as it's turned up to a boil.


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## TrueToMe (Jun 6, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> Has she had counselling for the CSA?





Mario Kempes said:


> What's CSA, Matt?


Mario - Childhood Sexual Assault/Abuse
@MattMatt - Yes. And maybe no. I believe she has grappled with it in various degrees for years with her IC(s), but in general I suspect that, between her CSA-related toxic shame and her BPD/NPD tendencies making her such a good actress, she's not being entirely forthcoming in her sessions. 
She's certainly never confided in any a-ha moments to me. 

BTW everyone: I found out about the CSA _after _our second of two children was born. No way would I have settled down to raise a family had I known this.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> Have you considered learning domination? Maybe some spanking could help?
> 
> I'm actually serious. It works for some folks.


Watch it. I got scolded for a similar remark. 

Your quip is aimed at the General Motor-vation of Damehood.

Mine was aimed at a specific fanny. Uh, Fanny Mae investment account..


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## TrueToMe (Jun 6, 2016)

Almost-Done said:


> Divorce and get tested. Sorry for all you've been through. As always, VAR the b!tch. You need to plan this out in a logical manner. Place the VARs in the most common places she's alone. Make sure it's inconspicuous and secured with velcro. Start setting up a f*ck you fund ASAP in slow increments. If she asks, say you're doing a new hobby (make one up). Tell her video recording. She's prob. too dense to even pick it up. Make sure you act the same to her as you always have been. As always, go to the best lawyers in the county NOW for a consultation. Why? Then they cannot legally be hers.
> 
> Time to become Maxwell Smart.


Thanks, A-D. 
This is where it gets perplexing for me. 
Everything is not cut-and-dried: I've done the VAR thing across many months. I've keylogged & wasted untold hours and found pretty much zilch. Tracked the car. I'm Smarting from my Maxwelling. My point is, unlike what TAM so often declares, its not like she's out there porking every guy with a heartbeat. Far from it. 



Lostinthought61 said:


> I don't suppose she is willing to take a polygraph to save this marriage would she? of course not...because she does not want the truth to be known, and your willing to buy it....i honestly can't tell who is more in denial you or her...sooner or later someone has to make a move this stalemate just ain't working.


While it's true, Lostinthought, I haven't gone down the polygraph road, it's mostly because I've understood BPDs cling to their narratives so profoundly they believe them to be true, so I would wind up with a fistful of false-negatives. 

But I am not buying anything she says now. That's a huge step for me, because I acknowledge w/o trust there can be no R, there can be no relationship worth having. 
How she can win trust that back is beyond me. And, frankly, I think beyond her.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

cuckolderman said:


> Thanks, A-D.
> This is where it gets perplexing for me.
> Everything is not cut-and-dried: I've done the VAR thing across many months. I've keylogged & wasted untold hours and found pretty much zilch. Tracked the car. I'm Smarting from my Maxwelling. My point is, unlike what TAM so often declares, its not like she's out there porking every guy with a heartbeat. Far from it.
> 
> ...


Cuckold, the damage has already been done don't you think, what ever a affair she had, is in her past now, with all the medical problems she has that is the last thing on her mind right now...your like the banker is watches an empty vault after he has been robbed to make sure nothing else has been taken when there is nothing left to take....i am willing to bet that if you filed for divorce that she will do anything to save the marriage at some point. Let's be honest she is still holding the deck and you have no cards.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

cuckolderman said:


> Thanks, A-D.
> This is where it gets perplexing for me.
> Everything is not cut-and-dried: I've done the VAR thing across many months. I've keylogged & wasted untold hours and found pretty much zilch. Tracked the car. I'm Smarting from my Maxwelling. My point is, unlike what TAM so often declares, its not like she's out there porking every guy with a heartbeat. Far from it.
> 
> ...


Your never going to learn the full extent of her prior incidents. She's never been remorseful over what you know let alone the unknown. She openly challenges and disrespects you with statements like it's your lack of setting boundaries. 

You ask the question how can she win your trust back, she can't at this point and more importantly she doesn't want or cares to. A poly at this point will most likely be useless, just file for divorce.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

LostInThought,

You wrote, *...your like the banker is watches an empty vault after he has been robbed to make sure nothing else has been taken when there is nothing left to take....*

Every so often someone writes something which summarizes how you feel in a very concise way, Thank You.

Perhaps there is hope that the Bernie Madoff who took the cash can be taken down though. 

Tamat


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

OP, have you been to IC? U have clearly indicated to some issues in yourself.

Sent from my BTV-W09 using Tapatalk


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

You haven’t really explained what or who you think she did. When did she do it? Lately, years ago, constantly ? If you have no proof what are you thinking? 

Child abuse issues could be anything? What was the abuse? Who with? Neighbor, relative, friend? How old?

Frankly, you wrote a lot and said little.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

cuckolderman said:


> 9)	She’s said “How can I know I’ve done something wrong if you haven’t taught me, haven’t set boundaries?” Blameshifting. And it smacks of an adult-child relationship, an abdication of her responsibilities. I’ve maintained the sort of things she’s done & said should be things any decent mate would have the common sense to just know. And how can I say something pushes too far if she lies & keeps it a secret from me?! And heck, if I came up with a detailed list of boundaries: she’d rail against me being controlling, the “man is in charge”.


As I see it, in her own way, she's saying she's lost respect for you for being afraid to enforce boundaries. Of course she'd rail against you. That's what you were afraid off. You shouldn't have been.

And, she's all but admitting your lack of consequences and rug sweeping has caused her to lose even more respect. 

Now you have a conundrum. The only way to give her an adequate consequence and earn her respect is by divorcing her. And of course, you're afraid to do that as well.

So, two choices. Live in a false R, or D. I wish I saw a third choice, but I don't.


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## TrueToMe (Jun 6, 2016)

CantBelieveThis said:


> OP, have you been to IC? U have clearly indicated to some issues in yourself.


Yes, steadily going, trying to understand how I could have lived under such self-deception/denial for so long. Attempting to rebuild into v2.0 of myself, haul my sorry butt out of NG hell. Trying to decipher all of this has probably given me (or reinforced in me) some OCD traits.

Funnily enough, my IC, whose motto is "Mend, don't End" is now wincing at times, when I tell him the latest issues, and he's come right out and said he doesn't know of many men who would stick around for this. His message is clear! I'm getting there. And getting impatient. Which I see as good if it helps me get to anger, a Last Frontier for me in shirking the co-dependency shackles.


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## TrueToMe (Jun 6, 2016)

Chaparral said:


> You haven’t really explained what or who you think she did. When did she do it? Lately, years ago, constantly ? If you have no proof what are you thinking?
> 
> Child abuse issues could be anything? What was the abuse? Who with? Neighbor, relative, friend? How old?
> 
> Frankly, you wrote a lot and said little.


Fair enough. My thoughts are all over the map--my apologies.

From ~ 7-12 y.o. she would have sleep-overs at her best friend's house. Friend's dad was the minister in the family's church. Decades later he was charged/convicted/did time for raping babysitters (plural).
WW is naturally very dissociative about this but does recall images of the upstairs hallway, Brylcreemed hair, his bathrobe, smell of liquor on breath, etc.
Also another dude, the principal of her grade school, who ran her summer camps, in the girls' cabin at night, WW waking up with a dislocated finger, and... 

--

As for EAs, I’ll start at the start, which I see less as an isolated error in judgment than a precedent set for a lifelong pattern.

WW moved overseas >32 years ago to teach high school ESL for a year; I followed 10 weeks later, after I’d wrapped up my employment/housing commitments. Before I arrived, she & a girlfriend wound up spending a night at the home of an old school friend (male) of theirs. Until D-Day 1, summer 2016, she’d always declared him as simply a friend and I thought little of it.

It turns out WW lied about this until last year. When I pressed her, she said that while visiting him that first time—although she ‘never found him appealing’—he came to her bedroom door, asked for sex & she refused. This still didn’t ring true to me, so… I imitated her, with a fake email... tracked him down & ‘re’connected with him in a long thread of emails over many weeks. There was no ‘bedroom door’—her girlfriend was in the only bedroom, porking his buddy. 

WW & he wound up sharing the living room sofa. He fondly recalled the specialness of this night for her/me, in how she ‘chastely’ rebuffed his making a pass at her—apparently invoking her relationship with me—and she instead ‘tenderly wrapped his arms around her’ and they spooned to sleep. Ain’t Paris romantic?! 

WW even introduced me to him when I arrived, and we ended up meeting for a dinner or whatever at least three or four other times in subsequent years wherever our lives coincided, me fully oblivious to the extent of their fondness for one another. She confessed to having a crush on him when they were classmates (he sent her/me a phone pic of a racy poem she wrote him all those years ago… _he still has it!_) 

A creepier element, which I think is a hallmark CSA victim behaviour, is in her since admitting to feeling a real sense of power in a couple of aspects of this: her refusing his advances, and her enjoying showing him she was adored by me when the three of us got together. 
Reading the above paragraph, I see also the power she wielded over me in manipulating these situations. 

There’s more recent stuff, but I have to sign off right now.


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## TrueToMe (Jun 6, 2016)

I have now left the house. By not kicking her out I am going easy on myself: her parents ponied up for the majority of our down payment, so I don't want another hassle to deal with at present.

Not positive what my 'plan' is so far, just taking it one step at a time by enacting the separation; it's pretty much the hardest thing I've ever done, really white-knuckling it. 
Still, by listening to my head instead of my heart for once, it's clear I need to do this for me, to finally focus on myself with no concern for others.


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