# Infertility ruining our marriage



## coupdegrace (Oct 15, 2012)

My wife and I have been married for 6 years and suffered through two painful miscarriages. The first was bad and the second was devastating. After the second miscarriage, my wife has had a myriad of health issues and lengthy setbacks ranging from endometriosis to thyroiditis to colitis. She’s had three surgeries due to the endometriosis consistently generating cysts in her ovaries; the last surgery was an emergency procedure to remove a massive cyst causing her excruciating pain about a month ago. It just seems like rotten luck. Neither one of us have ever smoked, abused alcohol or done recreational drugs; we’re both pretty much straight-edge.

We’ve discussed our options, which aren’t many, with our fertility specialist. The specialist told us that because of the past surgeries, scar tissue has developed on one of her tubes, causing clogging, which means the egg can’t travel the tube, so that cuts the chances of conception in half. In a nutshell, we were told that the outlook is bleak. We discussed in vitro fertilization, but that is ultra-expensive here in the US and would bankrupt us. In addition, the odds of success are only 20%, so that would almost be like tossing money into the wind. There’s the donor procedure, which is a 70% chance, and even more expensive, but it would be using someone else’s eggs with my sperm, so that’s out. Adoption is out because it makes her feel like she is less than a woman, being unable to have her own children. Before the last emergency surgery, the doctors were discussing taking out her ovaries because of the cysts, which freaked her out beyond imagination; she was almost inconsolable.

We’re both now in our early 40’s, so I think the biological clock is quickly expiring on us, but she’s refusing to let go. I’ve always wanted a son more than anything, and I truly believe that I wanted kids more than her, but with our age and her unfortunate health issues, I just think it’s time to let go, but she refuses to give up.

Over the last several months, she’s been scouring the internet looking for some kind of miracle cure that will help get her body healthy enough to conceive. It’s bad enough that she already takes a plethora of pills and off-the-wall vitamins that’s supposedly strengthening her eggs, but all of this may be doing harm. We don’t really know. Thanks to some website, she thinks acupuncture will make a difference and increase blood flow, but I haven’t seen any evidence that it would help in connection with a pregnancy. In addition, it wouldn’t clear out the scarring on her tubes or stop the endometriosis. She also thinks that seeing a doctor in her home country of Thailand will offer her a second opinion- one that she wants to hear. She’s already booked a trip and scheduled an appointment with some quack recommended to her by a family member (against my wishes), but I don’t know or trust them with their illegal, miracle drugs and suspect procedures. Her family isn’t helping either since they’re a proponent of this action and putting this into her head. 

All of the aforementioned has put great stress on our marriage, not to mention ZERO sex that I’ve not once complained to her about. I’ve been supportive and tried staying positive (at least in front of her), but I don’t know what to do next. Even though I really want children, I tell her not to worry about it as it will only cause more stress. I always say, “If it happens, great, but if not, we can try to enjoy life together.” I just can’t in good conscious, condone her seeing a doctor in another country with the hopes that they have some kind of miracle in a bottle or a cure-all procedure that could potentially make things worse. Honestly, I don’t know where to go from here or if we’re ever going to get past this. If we are unable to have children, I think it will ultimately ruin our marriage.


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

You need to change your approach.

Start getting the idea into her head that children

- are expensive. Figure $250k to raise them to the age of adulthood not including probably another $250k for college.
- are selfish. It's all about what they want until they finally grow up in 20 years and figure out that you really aren't as stupid as they always thought
- they can be born with health issues or be "mentally challenged" requiring additional care for their entire lives
- require constant care and attention which usually means one partner giving up a career and a LOT of money
- they use diapers for at least 2 years. Change diapers is freaking disgusting especially when they're soaked with piss and crap
- as toddlers they throw tantrums and cry and scream very loudly
- they get into trouble especially as they become teenagers. Drugs, crime, delinquincy, poor school performance, you name it.

If you do it right before you know it she'll be begging you not to have kids.


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## Lilac23 (Jul 9, 2015)

coupdegrace said:


> My wife and I have been married for 6 years and suffered through two painful miscarriages. The first was bad and the second was devastating. After the second miscarriage, my wife has had a myriad of health issues and lengthy setbacks ranging from endometriosis to thyroiditis to colitis. She’s had three surgeries due to the endometriosis consistently generating cysts in her ovaries; the last surgery was an emergency procedure to remove a massive cyst causing her excruciating pain about a month ago. It just seems like rotten luck. Neither one of us have ever smoked, abused alcohol or done recreational drugs; we’re both pretty much straight-edge.
> 
> We’ve discussed our options, which aren’t many, with our fertility specialist. The specialist told us that because of the past surgeries, scar tissue has developed on one of her tubes, causing clogging, which means the egg can’t travel the tube, so that cuts the chances of conception in half. In a nutshell, we were told that the outlook is bleak. We discussed in vitro fertilization, but that is ultra-expensive here in the US and would bankrupt us. In addition, the odds of success are only 20%, so that would almost be like tossing money into the wind. There’s the donor procedure, which is a 70% chance, and even more expensive, but it would be using someone else’s eggs with my sperm, so that’s out. Adoption is out because it makes her feel like she is less than a woman, being unable to have her own children. Before the last emergency surgery, the doctors were discussing taking out her ovaries because of the cysts, which freaked her out beyond imagination; she was almost inconsolable.
> 
> ...


What about adoption or surrogacy? All of people don't want to adopt but it is amazing how much you can love a child that is not your own. If you don't want to jump into adoption, you could try being foster parents for a while and that way you could really get to know the child first, before adopting them.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
infertility is really difficult and a terrible stress on a marriage - you have my sympathy. 

My story - which I've posted several times before but I think is worth it again. 

Years ago my wife decided she wanted kids. Long before we had decided we didn't want any, but as she was getting to 40 she changed her mind. I didn't want kids but felt it was something I was expected to do. 

We tried for a while - sex became very stressful - it was too obviously scheduled to get her pregnant, I started to feel like a stallion used for stud. There was pressure on both of us on whether or not she would get pregnant. Fun sex pretty much disappeared.

After a while of failing she started infertility treatments. Even more stressful. (not really fun having to jerk off into a cup and hand it to someone for inspection). Lots of $$$. No success. Reading taught me that the infertility business will extract money from couples for as long as they can, even when there is no real hope. its a BUSINESS.

Finally I told her to stop. We would adopt. But first I insisted that we take in a short term (shelter care) foster child. We did - a wonderful 5 year old girl. Very surprisingly considering her situation she was a very well adjusted little girl no serious issues. 

My wife discovered that having a kid was nothing like what she expected. Its a huge time sink. Kids aren't interested in the same things as adults. My wife pretty much withdrew from caring for the kid, leaving it all to me. 

Finally after 6 months our stint of foster care was over. Wife apologized for what she had done to us for the past 5 years. I accepted the apology. I'm sure that if we had had a kid, I'd now be a single father. Wife and I now are both very happy that we choose to never have kids. 

Many people love their kids. Many do not. It is the most important decision that you will ever make - think about it very carefully.


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## coupdegrace (Oct 15, 2012)

Mclane said:


> You need to change your approach.
> 
> Start getting the idea into her head that children
> 
> ...


She already knows all of the aforementioned. In fact, she stays at her parents house during the weekdays to help alleviate our horrendous commute, so she's exposed to most of that. Her two brothers WITH their 2 kids each all live under the same roof, and almost daily, she's telling me about something "funny" or "cute" the kids did. One of these days, "I don't give a crap" is going to slip out as I don't really care to hear stories about my brother-in-law's kids.


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## coupdegrace (Oct 15, 2012)

Lilac23 said:


> What about adoption or surrogacy? All of people don't want to adopt but it is amazing how much you can love a child that is not your own. If you don't want to jump into adoption, you could try being foster parents for a while and that way you could really get to know the child first, before adopting them.


I previously mentioned that adoption is off the table because of how it will make her feel as a woman; raising someone else's kid knowing that she can't make one herself. Seeing someone else's child might be a constant reminder of the harsh reality.

Regarding a surrogate, that would either cost more than we can afford OR it would be a huge debt that we could never repay. Her Sister-in-law was actually open do doing that, but her last child was troublesome during birth, and it was determined that she can't have any more children.


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## coupdegrace (Oct 15, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> We tried for a while - sex became very stressful - it was too obviously scheduled to get her pregnant, I started to feel like a stallion used for stud. There was pressure on both of us on whether or not she would get pregnant. Fun sex pretty much disappeared.
> 
> After a while of failing she started infertility treatments. Even more stressful. (not really fun having to jerk off into a cup and hand it to someone for inspection). Lots of $$$. No success. Reading taught me that the infertility business will extract money from couples for as long as they can, even when there is no real hope. its a BUSINESS.
> 
> ...


Ah, the sex. The same thing happened to us while we were trying to conceive. Instead of it being fun and spontaneous, it became like a chore. She would even say things like, "Okay, it's time to make a baby!" That made me NOT want to have sex at all; it felt like I was being used for my sperm as opposed to a mutual act of love, passion and admiration. 

It was so bad that she had an electronic calendar and ovulation tests that would determine what days we should have sex. I hated that because it felt like a damn job. Then, after the sex, she would lay there with her butt raised and legs in the air because she read somewhere that it would assist with keeping the sperm inside her.

Regarding adoption, something that I've not stated was I don't think I'm mature enough to handle adopting a child. Inevitably, there would come a point where the kid does something immature and, well, kid-like, and I'm kind of afraid that I'd have a knee-jerk reaction and say something inappropriate as a guardian.


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## KJ_Simmons (Jan 12, 2016)

richardsharpe said:


> Many people love their kids. Many do not.


I cannot even fathom that last part. :crying:


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

coupdegrace said:


> I previously mentioned that adoption is off the table because of how it will make her feel as a woman; raising someone else's kid knowing that she can't make one herself. Seeing someone else's child might be a constant reminder of the harsh reality.


One thing I can tell you from experience: when you can't have kids and want the, you notice them everywhere. You see every baby in a store, in the park, at church, ceremonies, malls. She will be getting constant reminders no matter what. 

I have friends who have adopted, and several who have been adopted. The parent forgets that the child didn't come from her body, or his bloodline. She will feel like a woman if she becomes a mom, regardless of how she got there. My friends who have adopted love their just as much as their (two families actually gave adopted and bio kids and can make that comparison).

Not everyone is comfortable adopting, of course. But if her reason was that the child would remind her, though, the outcome is usually that being a mom is the main thing that will help her forget about infertility.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

coupdegrace said:


> Regarding adoption, something that I've not stated was I don't think I'm mature enough to handle adopting a child. Inevitably, there would come a point where the kid does something immature and, well, kid-like, and I'm kind of afraid that I'd have a knee-jerk reaction and say something inappropriate as a guardian.


Hahah! Every parent has said something (many somethings) that are inappropriate. 

If you aren't comfortable with adoption, that's a different story, not much to work with there.


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## coupdegrace (Oct 15, 2012)

RoseAglow said:


> One thing I can tell you from experience: when you can't have kids and want the, you notice them everywhere. You see every baby in a store, in the park, at church, ceremonies, malls. She will be getting constant reminders no matter what.


I can 1-up you on that. We're both getting constant reminders, but it's like a supernatural force is consistently throwing it in our faces. My friend's immature, son knocked his girlfriend up at 19 and had a daughter a couple of months ago. A co-worker of mine that didn't really want kids had a baby last month. In addition, I've seen 3 "Welcome to the world" baby emails while at work in the last few months in addition to a couple of Facebook friends having children. My wife has several similar stories. All I can do is shake my head and shrug. It's like there's a force out there that's putting its hands to their ears, crossing their eyes and saying, "Neener, neener, neener!"



RoseAglow said:


> Hahah! Every parent has said something (many somethings) that are inappropriate.
> 
> If you aren't comfortable with adoption, that's a different story, not much to work with there.


I'm just afraid that I would say something damaging long-term, like call the kid the "spawn of satan", or something mention something about them being adopted in the heat of the moment after them doing something juvenile.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
Maybe I should have said: many parents regret having kids - though there is such a strong social stigma against it that few will say so except in unguarded moments. 

Some parents hide it well, others do not. I grew up knowing that my father didn't want me. 




KJ_Simmons said:


> I cannot even fathom that last part. :crying:


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
It can be bad in so many ways. My wife and I had always been in a HD/LD relationship. She would so often turn me down because she was tired, busy etc. But, when the time was right for her to try to get pregnant, she would always have sex - nothing took higher priority. Made me feel particularly used.

The worst though was when the stress of this was making it difficult for me to have an orgasm. After some failed attempts one night she gave me a BJ while fingering herself - then jumped on at the last second. Thing is back then she would NEVER give BJs - but this time she did because of what she wanted.


Overall I strongly feel that if you BOTH want children, then have lots of sex - no schedule, no rules. Just lots of fun lovemaking. If you get pregnant, great. If not, then it was not meant to be. 




coupdegrace said:


> Ah, the sex. The same thing happened to us while we were trying to conceive. Instead of it being fun and spontaneous, it became like a chore. She would even say things like, "Okay, it's time to make a baby!" That made me NOT want to have sex at all; it felt like I was being used for my sperm as opposed to a mutual act of love, passion and admiration.
> 
> It was so bad that she had an electronic calendar and ovulation tests that would determine what days we should have sex. I hated that because it felt like a damn job. Then, after the sex, she would lay there with her butt raised and legs in the air because she read somewhere that it would assist with keeping the sperm inside her.
> 
> Regarding adoption, something that I've not stated was I don't think I'm mature enough to handle adopting a child. Inevitably, there would come a point where the kid does something immature and, well, kid-like, and I'm kind of afraid that I'd have a knee-jerk reaction and say something inappropriate as a guardian.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

coupdegrace said:


> I can 1-up you on that. We're both getting constant reminders, but it's like a supernatural force is consistently throwing it in our faces. My friend's immature, son knocked his girlfriend up at 19 and had a daughter a couple of months ago. A co-worker of mine that didn't really want kids had a baby last month. In addition, I've seen 3 "Welcome to the world" baby emails while at work in the last few months in addition to a couple of Facebook friends having children. My wife has several similar stories. All I can do is shake my head and shrug. It's like there's a force out there that's putting its hands to their ears, crossing their eyes and saying, "Neener, neener, neener!"


It is like the universe is taunting you! Everyone else in the world is having kids, especially people who shouldn't! 




> I'm just afraid that I would say something damaging long-term, like call the kid the "spawn of satan", or something mention something about them being adopted in the heat of the moment after them doing something juvenile.


Of course you will say something damaging at some point. Probably more than once. No one is perfect. Kids don't know enough to focus on the things you do right; they will challenge you in some way or another on every perceived wrong. If parents didn't react in less-than-positive ways sometimes, all the therapists would go out of business.

It's ok. If you think overall that you'd be a good parent, and you and your wife agree that you'd work to be great parents, not abusive, willing to learn/adjust, etc, then you'll be fine. 

It's so worth it, for most people. I agree with a Richard that not everyone loves bring a parent, even if they aren't willing to say so. But I do believe that a large majority find it be among the most worthwhile and meaningful experiences of their lives.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Mclane said:


> You need to change your approach.
> 
> Start getting the idea into her head that children
> 
> ...


The above will make absolutely no difference to a woman who desperately wants children.


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## Lilac23 (Jul 9, 2015)

coupdegrace said:


> I previously mentioned that adoption is off the table because of how it will make her feel as a woman; raising someone else's kid knowing that she can't make one herself. Seeing someone else's child might be a constant reminder of the harsh reality.


I guess, as a woman, I don't understand this viewpoint. Did she actually tell you she feels this way? It wouldn't be someone else's child, it would be her child. It's not hard to fall in love a child, even though you didn't give birth to them. And what better way to turn her 'failure' to give birth, into a success story by giving a loving home to a child. 



coupdegrace said:


> I'm just afraid that I would say something damaging long-term, like call the kid the "spawn of satan", or something mention something about them being adopted in the heat of the moment after them doing something juvenile.


Everyone thinks they're going to f&^% up their kid in some way, I am sure it's the same with adoptive parents. And, honestly, we are all screwed up by our parents in some way...and it turns out ok!


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

frusdil said:


> The above will make absolutely no difference to a woman who desperately wants children.


How about taking her to a local youth correctional facility or rehab?

Pack a picnic basket and make a day of it?


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

For a marriage to be successful, it has to be put before children.

What you are doing is blowing up your house to get rid of a mouse.

Children need more than anything to be raised in a good marriage.


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

Hicks said:


> Children need more than anything to be raised in a good marriage.


And how often does THAT happen?


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

coupdegrace said:


> I previously mentioned that adoption is off the table because of how it will make her feel as a woman; raising someone else's kid knowing that she can't make one herself. Seeing someone else's child might be a constant reminder of the harsh reality.


Did she say this or is that how you feel? 

It's very easy for adoptive parents to forget that their baby is not of their blood line. This hold is their's, blood related or not. I know several people who have adopted children and have a few relatives who are adopted(2 aunts could not have kids). They're all family. It was never a reminder that she could not get pregnant. She was just so happy to be a mom.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

so basically, she is in her 40s, has multiple health issues, etc.

the window has passed but she hasn't yet accepted it.

it would be nice to indulge her somewhat if you can as she chases down the last possibilities. She may need to do this prior to fully accepting this.

if you really cannot afford it, you're going to need to have uncomfortable conversations.

she'll may blame you and take out her frustration on you.

that would be test if you can really empathize with her.


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## coupdegrace (Oct 15, 2012)

Hicks said:


> For a marriage to be successful, it has to be put before children.
> 
> What you are doing is blowing up your house to get rid of a mouse.
> 
> Children need more than anything to be raised in a good marriage.


I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at or what kind of analogy you're trying to draw. We don't have a bad marriage, however this infertility issue is certainly putting stress on it. Aside from this, we rarely argue about anything besides family, which everyone seems to argue about.


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

coupdegrace said:


> we rarely argue about anything besides family, which everyone seems to argue about.


<Mclane raises hand>

My girlfriend and I don't argue over family.

In fact we don't argue over anything. The most we might do is have a mild disagreement and either of us might be in what we like to call a "pissy" mood. But there's no arguing. 

None. There doesn't have to be arguing in a relationship.

It's not productive.


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## coupdegrace (Oct 15, 2012)

Anonymous07 said:


> Did she say this or is that how you feel?
> 
> It's very easy for adoptive parents to forget that their baby is not of their blood line. This hold is their's, blood related or not. I know several people who have adopted children and have a few relatives who are adopted(2 aunts could not have kids). They're all family. It was never a reminder that she could not get pregnant. She was just so happy to be a mom.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She actually said this once, so I never brought it up again. She already feels less than a woman because of her health issues, so I don't want to exacerbate the situation by mentioning it again.

I have a cousin that's adopted and he's considered family, just like those that share the same bloodline, so I don't have issue with it from that standpoint. Like I previously stated, I'd be afraid of saying something stupid and inappropriate as a parent.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Your wife needs therapy to realize and accept that giving birth to a child isn't likely in the cards for her. Ever. 

The answer is not spending $ on wild ass guess treatments or flipping out. It's acceptance. 

This is ultimately an emotional issue, not a reproductive one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## coupdegrace (Oct 15, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> so basically, she is in her 40s, has multiple health issues, etc.
> 
> the window has passed but she hasn't yet accepted it.


The window hasn't completely closed, but it isn't looking good. Basically, she has one good ovary, which doesn't bode well for conception.



Anon1111 said:


> it would be nice to indulge her somewhat if you can as she chases down the last possibilities. She may need to do this prior to fully accepting this.
> 
> if you really cannot afford it, you're going to need to have uncomfortable conversations.
> 
> ...


You know, I've acquiesced with regard to the acupuncture; do whatever it takes to give her peace of mind, but in vitro fertilization costs FAR too much with a really low percentage of success. Our fertility specialist said that it costs at least $25,000 with a 15 to 20% success clip. We have the money, but 20% for ONE shot? That would completely deplete our savings. Plus, that's money we've been saving to use on a down payment to buy a house closer to our jobs, so that would be an unwise course of action. 

I've done a great deal of thinking and decided to let her go back to her country for this second opinion with this quack doctor, just so she feels that all avenues were explored, and so she won't resent me for stopping her. Hopefully, she's smart enough to not take some supposed miracle cure concoction or undergo an impromptu procedure that may cause further damage.


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## Lilac23 (Jul 9, 2015)

marduk said:


> Your wife needs therapy to realize and accept that giving birth to a child isn't likely in the cards for her. Ever.
> 
> The answer is not spending $ on wild ass guess treatments or flipping out. It's acceptance.
> 
> ...


I agree it's probably an emotional issue, some women start to hit menopause age and freak out over not being fertile anymore. OP also said that for years they didn't want kids. So I would think if she's that desperate for a child, she'd get one anyway she could. She is more concerned with herself as 'reproductive failure'.


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## coupdegrace (Oct 15, 2012)

Mclane said:


> <Mclane raises hand>
> 
> My girlfriend and I don't argue over family.
> 
> ...


When I say "argue," I don't mean an immature shouting match with embarrassing public displays. I'm talking about disagreements of points of view... and just wait until you get married. Family will be a point of argument at some juncture.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Lilac23 said:


> I agree it's probably an emotional issue, some women start to hit menopause age and freak out over not being fertile anymore. OP also said that for years they didn't want kids. So I would think if she's that desperate for a child, she'd get one anyway she could. She is more concerned with herself as 'reproductive failure'.


Then she is looking for a child for validation of her as a woman.

Which wouldn't bode well even if she had a child.


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## coupdegrace (Oct 15, 2012)

marduk said:


> Your wife needs therapy to realize and accept that giving birth to a child isn't likely in the cards for her. Ever.
> 
> The answer is not spending $ on wild ass guess treatments or flipping out. It's acceptance.
> 
> ...


She's never "flipped out," but has gone through stretches of uncontrollable crying because of the situation... and being around her family with all their nieces and nephews running around, reminding her of what she doesn't have isn't helping matters any. 

And, I think you're right about acceptance, but as her husband, I have to support her by being positive and optimistic as opposed to being brutally honest.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

coupdegrace said:


> The window hasn't completely closed, but it isn't looking good. Basically, she has one good ovary, which doesn't bode well for conception.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


if this is her 1 shot, do you think she cares if it only has a 20% success rate?

She is going to want to take that shot because it is her ONLY shot.

It's like saying in basketball-- shooting from half court is a low percentage shot. Don't do that.

But if you're behind and the clock is running out, you are taking the half court shot.

That is where she is at.

Now, if you think she is really being taken advantage of, then you might want to say, honey, I know you really, really want this, but it is just not going to happen. I am trying to protect you from having false hope because it will only devastate you more.

Put yourself in her shoes and try to understand why she is open to grasping for things like this.


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## coupdegrace (Oct 15, 2012)

Lilac23 said:


> I agree it's probably an emotional issue, some women start to hit menopause age and freak out over not being fertile anymore. OP also said that for years they didn't want kids. So I would think if she's that desperate for a child, she'd get one anyway she could. She is more concerned with herself as 'reproductive failure'.


To clarify, I never said that we didn't want kids, however we weren't trying earlier in our relationship to focus on becoming established with our respective careers to be able to provide for our children.

And, she does sort of consider herself a failure as a woman... and there's nothing I can say to alleviate that heartache.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

First and foremost, ignore Mclane because his advice is terrible.

I've been through infertility. My sister has been through it. I have many, many friends who have as well. Most of us came out on the winning side, but not without a LOT of tears, some tantrums, lots of money, and lots and lots of prayer.

My sis tried acupuncture, IVF a few times (good insurance), has endo, etc. She eventually had her first child via a surrogate (an angel friend). Got pregnant on her own after that and had a second. She was still in her thirties, but still advanced age according to stats.

Adoption is not for everyone, but I don't know anyone who has regretted it. Actually, I lie, I did know a woman once who adopted from the foster system (after birthing her first through donor sperm) and she ended up "returning" that poor boy . 

However, if money's the issue and you want a newborn (nothing wrong with that), adoption isn't any cheaper than IVF or surrogacy. 

I'm so sorry you're going through this. I'm going to say a prayer for your wife, and for you as you support her through this awful battle .


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

coupdegrace said:


> To clarify, I never said that we didn't want kids, however we weren't trying earlier in our relationship to focus on becoming established with our respective careers to be able to provide for our children.
> 
> *And, she does sort of consider herself a failure as a woman... and there's nothing I can say to alleviate that heartache.*


All you can do is hold her, comfort her each month she gets a negative HPT, and try to stay strong for both of you. So sorry .


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

FWIW, I would be skeptical of a 20% success rate claim given what you've described about her profile.

I still think the best course of action would be getting her to come to terms that it is not going to happen.

women with optimal health and no history of fertility issues often have great difficulty conceiving in their 40s.

if you can work on speaking to her about this in a way that shows you are really concerned about helping her come to terms with this, rather than saving yourself money, that would probably go far.


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## coupdegrace (Oct 15, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> if this is her 1 shot, do you think she cares if it only has a 20% success rate?
> 
> She is going to want to take that shot because it is her ONLY shot.
> 
> ...


I was almost going to use an analogy about the GS Warriors, but figured nobody would know what I'm talking about. 

At any rate, she hasn't really pushed the issue for IVF, but has all her faith wrapped around what this doctor says that's outside the US. Our fertility specialist gave us the cold, hard facts, so I think she's looking for someone to be more warm and comforting... and I can totally empathize with her as I want children too, but I'm not willing to put myself at risk to do it. She probably feels that since she's already been through 3 surgeries, there isn't much risk left.


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

SecondTime'Round said:


> First and foremost, ignore Mclane because his advice is terrible.


^^ This. If you do nothing else, ignore the terrible advice given by some clueless posters who are responding based on nothing more than personal bias based on their own dreadful life experiences.

In fact, you might want to consider doing the opposite. Spend all your money on fertility treatments, and if that fails, adopt. You could probably raise 9 or 10 kids without breaking a sweat.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

coupdegrace said:


> I was almost going to use an analogy about the GS Warriors, but figured nobody would know what I'm talking about.
> 
> At any rate, she hasn't really pushed the issue for IVF, but has all her faith wrapped around what this doctor says that's outside the US. Our fertility specialist gave us the cold, hard facts, so I think she's looking for someone to be more warm and comforting... and I can totally empathize with her as I want children too, but I'm not willing to put myself at risk to do it. She probably feels that since she's already been through 3 surgeries, there isn't much risk left.


She probably does feel that way, and also she might always have that "what if?" if she doesn't try. What specifically are you worried might happen to her if she sees this doctor?


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## coupdegrace (Oct 15, 2012)

SecondTime'Round said:


> First and foremost, ignore Mclane because his advice is terrible.
> 
> I've been through infertility. My sister has been through it. I have many, many friends who have as well. Most of us came out on the winning side, but not without a LOT of tears, some tantrums, lots of money, and lots and lots of prayer.
> 
> ...


Ah, someone who understands the struggle. Thanks for the kind words! I should see if my insurance would cover IVF. I doubt it, though.

How did acupuncture work for your sister? Just curious.


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

coupdegrace said:


> How did acupuncture work for your sister? Just curious.


Acupuncture doesn't work for anyone for anything. Other then perhaps deadening some nerve pain, the rest is complete rubbish.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

coupdegrace said:


> Ah, someone who understands the struggle. Thanks for the kind words! I should see if my insurance would cover IVF. I doubt it, though.
> 
> How did acupuncture work for your sister? Just curious.


Well, it didn't help her conceive, but I think it might have helped with her anxiety and depression because of all of it.


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## coupdegrace (Oct 15, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> FWIW, I would be skeptical of a 20% success rate claim given what you've described about her profile.
> 
> I still think the best course of action would be getting her to come to terms that it is not going to happen.
> 
> ...


I think that she will need a professional to tell her that it's not going to happen, then deal with the fallout thereafter. All I can do is continue to be positive and support her. I think that if this doctor in her home country says the same thing, it will sink in.

We've rarely actually discussed IVF because the chances of success are so low. I only mentioned it because our fertility specialist brought it up as an option when we met with him.


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## coupdegrace (Oct 15, 2012)

SecondTime'Round said:


> She probably does feel that way, and also she might always have that "what if?" if she doesn't try. What specifically are you worried might happen to her if she sees this doctor?


I'm afraid that this doctor will give her miracle pills that makes her sick... or more sick. At this point, she's willing to take anything if someone, especially a family member recommends it, but doesn't realize that everything doesn't work for everyone. She already takes a ton of pills, some that her family brought back from her country, and I don't know what the hell they're supposed to do, and I doubt she does either.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

coupdegrace said:


> She's never "flipped out," but has gone through stretches of uncontrollable crying because of the situation... and being around her family with all their nieces and nephews running around, reminding her of what she doesn't have isn't helping matters any.
> 
> And, I think you're right about acceptance, but as her husband, I have to support her by being positive and optimistic as opposed to being brutally honest.


There are many kinds of compassion.

Not being honest is not one of them.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Anon1111 said:


> FWIW, I would be skeptical of a 20% success rate claim given what you've described about her profile.
> 
> I still think the best course of action would be getting her to come to terms that it is not going to happen.
> 
> ...


I am not a doctor, but I have been through quite a bit of kid stuff, and friends and family with reproductive issues.

Given what you said, I give her a 1% chance. At best.

Which means that the odds of her conceiving and bringing a child to term before she hits menopause is roughly the same odds of a reproductively healthy couple of doing so while on the pill.

Which is not good. She is likely technically infertile.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

coupdegrace said:


> I'm afraid that this doctor will give her miracle pills that makes her sick... or more sick. At this point, she's willing to take anything if someone, especially a family member recommends it, but doesn't realize that everything doesn't work for everyone. She already takes a ton of pills, some that her family brought back from her country, and I don't know what the hell they're supposed to do, and I doubt she does either.


When I was going through this, I would have done anything, and I did. I saw a nutritionist and was taking all sorts of supplements when I had my first visit with an R.E. He was like, "WTH are you taking? Do you realize that's BOVINE urine?" (I'm not sure it was urine, but it was bovine something if I recall....this was 17 or 18 years ago!). 

Maternal instinct is very, very strong.

Can I ask what your religious beliefs are in general? I'm wondering if something I have that I could PM you would encourage you in any way.


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## coupdegrace (Oct 15, 2012)

marduk said:


> There are many kinds of compassion.
> 
> Not being honest is not one of them.


That's subjective. Besides, I'm not an expert, and don't have x-ray vision to scan her body, so I don't really know, nor am I qualified to give a professional opinion. Additionally, you have to know who you're dealing with, and brutal honesty would not work in this situation. The fertility specialist was brutally honest and it ended with her crying.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

coupdegrace said:


> I think that she will need a professional to tell her that it's not going to happen, then deal with the fallout thereafter. All I can do is continue to be positive and support her. I think that if this doctor in her home country says the same thing, it will sink in.
> 
> We've rarely actually discussed IVF because the chances of success are so low. I only mentioned it because our fertility specialist brought it up as an option when we met with him.


this is kind of sneaky, but well intentioned, so whatever.

you might want to get more involved in the overseas doctor thing so you can steer it toward getting realistic advice.

frame it as you supporting her (which it is), but make sure you don't end up talking to some quack who will tell her whatever she wants to hear.


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## coupdegrace (Oct 15, 2012)

SecondTime'Round said:


> When I was going through this, I would have done anything, and I did. I saw a nutritionist and was taking all sorts of supplements when I had my first visit with an R.E. He was like, "WTH are you taking? Do you realize that's BOVINE urine?" (I'm not sure it was urine, but it was bovine something if I recall....this was 17 or 18 years ago!).
> 
> Maternal instinct is very, very strong.
> 
> Can I ask what your religious beliefs are in general? I'm wondering if something I have that I could PM you would encourage you in any way.


My wife currently takes CoQ10, which is supposed to help produce healthy eggs. *shrugs* Not sure if it really does. She also takes blood pressure medication, pain meds and some other pill that's in her language that I can't read. I don't know what the hell it does.

Respectfully, I'd rather not discuss religion on these boards, but feel free to send a PM my way.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

coupdegrace said:


> That's subjective. Besides, I'm not an expert, and don't have x-ray vision to scan her body, so I don't really know, nor am I qualified to give a professional opinion. Additionally, you have to know who you're dealing with, and brutal honesty would not work in this situation. The fertility specialist was brutally honest and it ended with her crying.


It sounds like you're either a bit afraid of your wife's emotions, or a bit tied into relying on her being happy for you to be OK. 

One is fear, the other is codependence. 

What is your honest assessment of the probabilty of her being able to conceive and carry a child to term?


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

coupdegrace said:


> *My wife currently takes CoQ10, which is supposed to help produce healthy eggs. *shrugs* Not sure if it really does. *She also takes blood pressure medication, pain meds and some other pill that's in her language that I can't read. I don't know what the hell it does.
> 
> Respectfully, I'd rather not discuss religion on these boards, but feel free to send a PM my way.


Ubiquinol is a better choice (it's a reduced form of CoQ10), also it does help improve the quality of eggs.


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## Lilac23 (Jul 9, 2015)

marduk said:


> Then she is looking for a child for validation of her as a woman.
> 
> Which wouldn't bode well even if she had a child.


One of my aunts had five kids and severe psychotic PPD, when she went through 'the change' she had a deep depression because she felt if she couldn't reproduce anymore, what good was she? Never mind her husband got whacked (vasectomy) ten years before as the psychosis was so bad, that was fine. But when she no longer had the ability to get pregnant, she felt worthless.


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## Lilac23 (Jul 9, 2015)

coupdegrace said:


> I was almost going to use an analogy about the GS Warriors, but figured nobody would know what I'm talking about.
> 
> At any rate, she hasn't really pushed the issue for IVF, but has all her faith wrapped around what this doctor says that's outside the US. Our fertility specialist gave us the cold, hard facts, so I think she's looking for someone to be more warm and comforting... and I can totally empathize with her as I want children too, but I'm not willing to put myself at risk to do it. She probably feels that since she's already been through 3 surgeries, there isn't much risk left.


Have you talked with her about the risks of Down Syndrome and other genetic disorder that increase sharply with age? How does she feel about raising a child with one of these disorders?


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## Lilac23 (Jul 9, 2015)

Are you prochoice by any chance?




Mclane said:


> How about taking her to a local youth correctional facility or rehab?
> 
> Pack a picnic basket and make a day of it?





Mclane said:


> And how often does THAT happen?





Mclane said:


> You need to change your approach.
> 
> Start getting the idea into her head that children
> 
> ...


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## Lilac23 (Jul 9, 2015)

I do feel the situation your wife is, I get twinges of 'baby fever' every once in a while but I also figure that if I do not have biological children, adoption is totally an option. There are so many children in need out there and giving one or home or at least volunteering with them somehow is a way to make a positive out of two negative situations. It is understandable for her to take some time to dwell in her sadness before she accepts reality, but it is ultimately selfish to feel sorry yourself too long. There is also nothing wrong with donor eggs and your sperm, she could still carry the child. To be so hung up on her own genetic line is sad, she has options, she is just choosing to not use them.


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## coupdegrace (Oct 15, 2012)

marduk said:


> It sounds like you're either a bit afraid of your wife's emotions, or a bit tied into relying on her being happy for you to be OK.
> 
> One is fear, the other is codependence.
> 
> What is your honest assessment of the probabilty of her being able to conceive and carry a child to term?


I'm not at all in fear of my wife's emotions, but what husband would want to see their wife suffer emotionally? She's been through THREE endometriosis surgeries and suffered through countless health issues. All I'm doing is being supportive, like I should be.

Honestly, I think the chances are very slim, so I'm trying to be as comforting as possible when she is eventually told by a professional that it's not going to happen... and it hurts me too because I probably want a son more than anything, but I don't want to be the one that douses her dream.


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## coupdegrace (Oct 15, 2012)

Lilac23 said:


> Have you talked with her about the risks of Down Syndrome and other genetic disorder that increase sharply with age? How does she feel about raising a child with one of these disorders?


You know, I've thought a great deal about that and often wondered if us not having children is a blessing in disguise. A good friend of mine has a severely autistic son and just seeing what he and his wife are going through... Well, I wouldn't wish that on anyone.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

coupdegrace said:


> I'm not at all in fear of my wife's emotions, but what husband would want to see their wife suffer emotionally? She's been through THREE endometriosis surgeries and suffered through countless health issues. All I'm doing is being supportive, like I should be.
> 
> Honestly, I think the chances are very slim, so I'm trying to be as comforting as possible when she is eventually told by a professional that it's not going to happen... and it hurts me too because I probably want a son more than anything, but I don't want to be the one that douses her dream.


I think it's wise to let a professional talk with her. You are husband, but you are not an expert on fertility. It's one thing to tell her that, from what you can tell from your research, it doesn't look good; that's a different thing then telling her it's time to give up. It's appropriate to consult a professional for the best guidance.


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

richardsharpe said:


> My wife discovered that having a kid was nothing like what she expected. Its a huge time sink. Kids aren't interested in the same things as adults. My wife pretty much withdrew from caring for the kid, leaving it all to me.
> 
> Finally after 6 months our stint of foster care was over. Wife apologized for what she had done to us for the past 5 years. I accepted the apology. I'm sure that if we had had a kid, I'd now be a single father. Wife and I now are both very happy that we choose to never have kids.
> 
> Many people love their kids. Many do not. It is the most important decision that you will ever make - think about it very carefully.


It's alot different from your own child to adopting a child at 5 years old that you have not bonded with.

But having kids is the biggest decision any couple or person can make. It's not a part time job. The pay sucks, the hours are long and erratic. The work is hazardous at times and you're being taken for granted all the time. But it's worth it when I hear "I love you Daddy" or just "Daddy!!!" when i get home.

But with my oldest (teen), I'm almost close to jumping on your boat, I can't wait for the dating years, sarcasm off....And I have 3 girls.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

coupdegrace said:


> I'm not at all in fear of my wife's emotions, but what husband would want to see their wife suffer emotionally? She's been through THREE endometriosis surgeries and suffered through countless health issues. All I'm doing is being supportive, like I should be.
> 
> Honestly, I think the chances are very slim, so I'm trying to be as comforting as possible when she is eventually told by a professional that it's not going to happen... and it hurts me too because I probably want a son more than anything, but I don't want to be the one that douses her dream.


So you want to save her emotionally from dealing with reality now instead of letting her get her hopes up to be dashed later?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tortdog (May 2, 2016)

Still laughing. 



Mclane said:


> If you do it right before you know it she'll be begging you not to have kids.


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## coupdegrace (Oct 15, 2012)

marduk said:


> So you want to save her emotionally from dealing with reality now instead of letting her get her hopes up to be dashed later?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't want to be the one that squashes all hope; she would probably resent me for it later down the road, even it ended up being true. I'd rather it be a nameless, faceless doctor handing down that verdict, so she can hate them instead of me. Besides, I'm not qualified, nor am I a medical professional, so all I can do is guess like everyone else.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

the thing is, it's past the "maybe it will just work out" stage.

based on everything you've described, you're clearly in the "there is really no way it's going to happen" stage.

you don't need to be a doctor to realize this.

this is an emotional problem, not a scientific problem.

as her husband, it's your job to emotionally support her. so that means helping her to emotionally cope with this realization.

she is really in denial at this point and that is not helping.

I get it that you don't want this to blow up in your face, but you could take a heavier hand.

Steer the conversation toward doctors who will give you a realistic assessment. Do not let her drive this toward yes-men quacks who just tell her what she wants to get her money.


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## coupdegrace (Oct 15, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> the thing is, it's past the "maybe it will just work out" stage.
> 
> based on everything you've described, you're clearly in the "there is really no way it's going to happen" stage.
> 
> ...


She's hanging onto every last sliver of hope, and that's what this fertility doctor in her home country represents. I'm hoping that once they tell her "It's not going to happen," that will be the end of it and we can get on with our lives. The fertility doctor that we saw here in the US was brutally honest and she didn't want to hear it; she felt that he was cold, apathetic and insensitive.

I've already told her that there's no magic potion or cure-all pill that she can take to remedy this situation; she's grasping for straws and looking for someone to tell her what she wants to hear instead of the truth. I've already tried the "maybe it's just not meant to be" approach to no avail.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

coupdegrace said:


> She's hanging onto every last sliver of hope, and that's what this fertility doctor in her home country represents. I'm hoping that once they tell her "It's not going to happen," that will be the end of it and we can get on with our lives. The fertility doctor was brutally honest and she didn't want to hear it; she felt that he was cold, apathetic and insensitive.
> 
> I've already told her that there's no magic potion or cure-all pill that she can take to remedy this situation; she's grasping for straws and looking for someone to tell her what she wants to hear instead of the truth. I've already tried the "maybe it's just not meant to be" approach to no avail.


is the fertility doctor in her home country a yes-man quack?

why does she need to go to a foreign country for an answer when there are many, many qualified doctors right where she lives?

are you willing to ask her these questions?


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> is the fertility doctor in her home country a yes-man quack?
> 
> why does she need to go to a foreign country for an answer when there are many, many qualified doctors right where she lives?
> 
> are you willing to ask her these questions?


The beliefs in eastern traditional medicines is pretty deeply rooted, much in the same way that miracles are propagated in the US. 

After years of reluctant exposure to traditional medicine in China, I think that some of it is useful as preventive medicine, but not effective as treatment for any existing conditions. Acupuncture seems to be an exception, in that it does seem to help in some cases of pain management/reduction.

Of course, I agree with you that it will not be effective for increasing the odds of pregnancy. I am certain though that the OP's wife has heard that there is a traditional treatment in her home country that has worked for a friend of a friend of a colleague's friend.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

coupdegrace said:


> I don't want to be the one that squashes all hope; she would probably resent me for it later down the road, even it ended up being true. I'd rather it be a nameless, faceless doctor handing down that verdict, so she can hate them instead of me. Besides, I'm not qualified, nor am I a medical professional, so all I can do is guess like everyone else.


You're hiding from her emotions. If you'd rather her hear a life changing truth from some random Doctor that doesn't give a **** about her just because you don't want her to hate you, you don't love her.

You just want to enable her so she won't leave you.

Which is pretty much the definition of codependency.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

coupdegrace said:


> I've already told her that there's no magic potion or cure-all pill that she can take to remedy this situation; she's grasping for straws and looking for someone to tell her what she wants to hear instead of the truth. *I've already tried the "maybe it's just not meant to be" approach to no avail.*


With all due respect, this is not going to help. It won't help any more than telling someone who has lost a child that "heaven needed another angel." 

You're much better off letting her feel (and feeling it with her) the injustice and unfairness of it all and trying to come up with a plan to HEAL from it. Her pain needs to be acknowledged. Period. Not minimized, not explained. Just acknowledged. And, when she's ready to hear your ideas for healing and moving forward, she will hopefully let you know, as long as she feels supported and empathized with in her grief (which is well deserved).


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## coupdegrace (Oct 15, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> is the fertility doctor in her home country a yes-man quack?
> 
> why does she need to go to a foreign country for an answer when there are many, many qualified doctors right where she lives?
> 
> are you willing to ask her these questions?


The fertility doctor outside the US is a friend of an acquaintance of someone's family. 

I've even told her that doctors don't work miracles, and that all she's doing is searching for someone that tells her what she wants to hear. 

I've asked every question that could possibly be thought of, believe me.


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## coupdegrace (Oct 15, 2012)

marduk said:


> You're hiding from her emotions. If you'd rather her hear a life changing truth from some random Doctor that doesn't give a **** about her just because you don't want her to hate you, you don't love her.
> 
> You just want to enable her so she won't leave you.
> 
> Which is pretty much the definition of codependency.


I'm not hiding from her emotions and I'm not afraid of her leaving me, which is ridiculous. I just want this doctor to be straight with her, because she will listen to a qualified professional. Even more so because they're from her home country.


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## coupdegrace (Oct 15, 2012)

Steve1000 said:


> The beliefs in eastern traditional medicines is pretty deeply rooted, much in the same way that miracles are propagated in the US.
> 
> After years of reluctant exposure to traditional medicine in China, I think that some of it is useful as preventive medicine, but not effective as treatment for any existing conditions. Acupuncture seems to be an exception, in that it does seem to help in some cases of pain management/reduction.
> 
> Of course, I agree with you that it will not be effective for increasing the odds of pregnancy. I am certain though that the OP's wife has heard that there is a traditional treatment in her home country that has worked for a friend of a friend of a colleague's friend.


That is almost spot on, especially regarding eastern medicine. If something worked for a friend of a colleague of an acquaintance, it has to work, right?


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

coupdegrace said:


> I'm not hiding from her emotions and I'm not afraid of her leaving me, which is ridiculous. I just want this doctor to be straight with her, because she will listen to a qualified professional. Even more so because they're from her home country.


I'm going to say this and get off this thread. But I honestly want you to think about it because I think it's a fundamental problem. 

You want your wife to listen to some Doctor that you hope will say exactly what you want him to say to save your marriage. 

That's what you are saying. Which is a blend of magical thinking, appealing to authority, and just smacks as very odd to me. 

I think your wife needs a husband who's straight with her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

marduk said:


> I'm going to say this and get off this thread. But I honestly want you to think about it because I think it's a fundamental problem.
> 
> You want your wife to listen to some Doctor that you hope will say exactly what you want him to say to save your marriage.
> 
> ...


I disagree. I think she needs a husband who empathizes with her and lets her exhaust all options (within reason) before giving up her lifelong dream. This doesn't mean he's enabling, or codependent or whatever. Infertility is no different than any other unexplained illness. People need answers, and some people need to exhaust ALL avenues before giving up, and that's not bad. Even if it doesn't work, she'll never know unless she tries. If they can afford it, and can emotionally and mentally handle it, I say go for it just to cross it off the mental list and maybe put themselves (herself) on the path to acceptance and healing. I'm not really seeing how it will be harmful unless it bankrupts them or something.


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## ILoveSparkles (Oct 28, 2013)

coupdegrace said:


> The fertility doctor outside the US is a friend of an acquaintance of someone's family.
> 
> I've even told her that doctors don't work miracles, and that all she's doing is searching for someone that tells her what she wants to hear.
> 
> I've asked every question that could possibly be thought of, believe me.


So what happens if this doctor tells your wife what she wants to hear? I wouldn't be surprised because the doctor will want her money. Will she stay in that country while "working" with this doctor? I doubt she'd see this doctor and then leave the country if he tells her he can help your wife. 

Something to think about.


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## coupdegrace (Oct 15, 2012)

marduk said:


> I'm going to say this and get off this thread. But I honestly want you to think about it because I think it's a fundamental problem.
> 
> You want your wife to listen to some Doctor that you hope will say exactly what you want him to say to save your marriage.
> 
> ...


I've already been straight with her and was explicit about my feelings of her going to see this doctor abroad. I'm simply allowing her to explore every avenue before calling it quits as she will need this sense of finality to move on. 

Have I been coddling her? Okay, sure. I'm guilty of that because of her fragile emotional state and it hurts me to see her in pain. I mean, every time she saw a baby in a stroller, she would tear up, then later ask me in a crackling voice, "Why me? What did I do wrong?" And, there's no answer for that. None, besides $h!t happens and life's not fair.


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## coupdegrace (Oct 15, 2012)

SecondTime'Round said:


> I disagree. I think she needs a husband who empathizes with her and lets her exhaust all options (within reason) before giving up her lifelong dream. This doesn't mean he's enabling, or codependent or whatever. Infertility is no different than any other unexplained illness. People need answers, and some people need to exhaust ALL avenues before giving up, and that's not bad. Even if it doesn't work, she'll never know unless she tries. If they can afford it, and can emotionally and mentally handle it, I say go for it just to cross it off the mental list and maybe put themselves (herself) on the path to acceptance and healing. I'm not really seeing how it will be harmful unless it bankrupts them or something.


Thanks for articulating that for me.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

coupdegrace said:


> None, besides $h!t happens and life's not fair.


This.

You can hold her and tell her you wish it wasn't true and that you would take it all away if you could.

But having children is inherently about rolling the dice. It doesn't make her a bad person, it doesn't make her a bad woman, it doesn't mean anything.

Except that she needs to face that this is likely never going to happen.

And hold her hand and maybe book some therapy with or for her, and be sensitive to her.

But don't coddle her and don't let her pretend. Not because you don't love her and don't want to protect her, but because you do.


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## coupdegrace (Oct 15, 2012)

Yes said:


> So what happens if this doctor tells your wife what she wants to hear? I wouldn't be surprised because the doctor will want her money. Will she stay in that country while "working" with this doctor? I doubt she'd see this doctor and then leave the country if he tells her he can help your wife.
> 
> Something to think about.


I've already thought about that, actually... and the doctor is a she and an acquaintance of the family. 

If this doctor has some miracle procedure, remedy, elixir or concoction, I'm going to be stern and put my foot down. We've discussed this ad nausem, and I told her exactly the same thing you mentioned above: they will take your money and tell you whatever you want to hear... 

And, she can't stay in her homeland because she's an accountant and doesn't have a wealth of vacation time thanks to her last surgery.


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