# Very, very confused...



## confusedmoi

Hi all, 

I've been reading this forum for a week, and have come across some great advice. I apologize in advance if this is not proper etiquette to just storm in with a first post asking for advice. But I'm running out of corners to turn and I'd be grateful for a second/third/fourth opinion.

Firstly, I am a rational guy. I am known to be sensible, affable, logical (I minored in Philosophy), calm, and steady. I'm not prone to irrationality, jealousy (although I'm capable of it), or impulsiveness. I think things through, and then I make a plan, come hell or high water. 

I've been married for about 15 years nearly. We have no kids, we have a house together, she's a career woman, I'm a vocational man. We get on well, but there is no passion in our marriage, and no sexual intimacy, and it's been like that for a while. A long while. It's been a combination of work schedules, school schedules (she went back to school twice in quick succession), work hours, and in my case, a crippling bout of depression a few years ago which greatly affected my libido at the time. That was a fair while ago, though. It seems we just slipped into a routine, and our schedules became more independent, even though we sleep in the same bed - I suffer from insomnia (ever since said bout of depression), whereas she's asleep by 9pm. Other than that, though, we work well together, but at times we seem almost more like roommates than marital partners.

To start the real point of this post - I don't "do" gut instinct. I just don't, I tend to solve problems through thinking, and I rarely get "gut feels". So when I do, I get worried about them, particularly when they are so persistent.

So about two months ago, I began to get a gut feeling that something wasn't quite right with my wife. Just small changes in her patterns, her schedule, and her behavior. Nothing that, on it's own, screams "AFFAIR", but when pieced together, says that SOMETHING is not quite right. For example, she started to go into work a bit earlier than usual. On it's own, no harm in that. But it was random. It wasn't "If I go in an hour early, I'll get out an hour early". She was still coming home at the same time. Her job is open long into the night, so staying an hour later would be totally feasible. But she goes in an hour early, on random days. 

Then we had a contractor come over, and she sorted it out. Nothing unusual in that, as I work evenings a lot, and she would usually be at home to sort things out with them. But this time, apropos of nothing, she asks if I minded if this guy came over while I wasn't there at the house. This seemed odd, and I responded with "Why should I mind?". Then, she was supposed to go out of state with a girl friend to accompany said girl friend to an awards dinner, because her friend "was dying to try this steakhouse that's supposed to be amazing". Then, literally on the day, the "awards dinner" gets cancelled. Which was also the same day the contractor was supposed to arrive to assess the work we needed. 

My suspicion and "gut feeling" is going into overdrive at that point. Her explanations for the awards dinner - including the name of the industry sector - seemed over-elaborate to me, and overly detailed. The "Friend", as far as any work friends I know that she has with the same first name, is in her early 60s, and they haven't been in the same department in 1.5-2 years. So that was weird to me. 

Then one morning she has to suddenly go into work to "help a friend with her reports because she's on the verge of being fired". So she was going in 1.5 hours early to help someone, all of a sudden. I know this was all of a sudden, because at that point I started tracking the online phone bill, and she didn't receive any SMS texts from any unfamiliar number the previous night, or that morning. Subsequently, on the phone bill, there was a single mass outgoing text from her at 6:36am, and then a bunch of incoming ones immediately after, and then a trickle of incoming texts, but no outgoings, until after midday. 

There are two problems with that event. Firstly, the only FB friend I could see on her friends list that had the same name, and worked at the same place, had her job title as being "FORMERLY" employed at my wife's workplace. 

Secondly, that morning, when she came out of the bathroom and lay on the bed after she told me she had to go to help this friend (I go to the gym very early in the morning usually, so I was awake at that point, although I didn't go that day), she had her phone out - she normally plays any games or reads news sites laying flat on her back. That morning, she lay on her side, facing me, so that the screen was facing away from me, while she was texting. That, again, was an unusual change of pattern.

Two days later, I come out of our bathroom unexpectedly (I did this on purpose - went in, counted to three, and came out immediately like I forgot something) and she was on her phone, but suddenly shut it down, and started asking me innocuous questions about dinner. Again, she usually doesn't shut her phone off in my presence if she's playing a game or reading news sites. Another oddity to add to the tempest.

This morning, my alarm goes off to go to the gym, but I didn't get much sleep last night, so I decide to skip it. I notice that she went to the bathroom, so I looked at her bedside table, and sure enough, no phone. This was 5.05am. She didn't exit the bathroom until 5.25am. Then she lay on the bed. I had pulled the covers up over my head and covered my eyes, although I could still see out. She was on her phone, and she was reading sites, liking pictures (I assume on Instagram), but then she got a message, which looked fairly long. She typed a quick reply and then quickly swiped the screen off. Then, she started to look at some website that I couldn't see properly, that seemed to be a site that had a lot of male profile pics. She'd scroll down, tap one, it would enlarge, it was almost always a picture of a man, and she would read a bio underneath it, then click it off, scroll down some more. There could have been profiles of women, but I couldn't see too clearly the definitions. It all seemed to be men. Then she shut that down, and started liking more pictures. Then she shut her phone down and watched tv. Then I really had to go to the bathroom myself. I use a different bathroom outside the bedroom. I exit, but as I'm leaving, I glance immediately to her, and she's quickly picking up her phone. I checked the phone logs later - no SMS texts at any point since the last one she sent me late last night. 

So she's working late tonight and tomorrow. She teaches a class in a local adult education center. For the past few years, it's been a regular obligation - she worked Tuesday/Wednesday, she enjoyed the job, and it paid well. This year, though (i.e since September), she has said she can teach whatever days she wants, and not even go in at all if she doesn't want to. That, again, just seems weird. 

I've done cell phone bill checks, and nothing jumps out, save for a few numbers that seem to belong to men, but they seem short-term (a few calls and/or texts over a period of time, then nothing). She obviously has students, so that might explain that. The contractor number fits a contractor timeline, so I think that might rule that one out, although one number was texted on evening before that supposed Out of State trip that got canceled, with texts right up until 6:30ish. Then nothing after that. This number appears right around the time I started to feel uneasy, and stops a week ago, including one outgoing picture text sent from her. 

There is one guy from her job who she gets a lot of texts from, but he's married with 2 kids, and apparently another one on the way

So here are my conclusions so far:

She's using a chat app to chat to people, rather than texting them, even though our texts are free as part of our plan

She's being secretive about something, judging by her phone habits

There are communications that come out in the real world (helping the friend all of a sudden on morning) that aren't accounted for in the phone bill. 

There is another number from a co-worker guy that she's reasonably close with in the same department. She did some "adopt a farm patch" scheme with him where they paid for specific farmers market goods, putting money in to get their bag each week. This guy is married, has two kids and now apparently one on the way. But he's also 15 years her junior. 

A while ago she started bashing her ex from before me, all of a sudden (he's in a band now, apparently). Literally out of the blue. Then no mention of him again. She was bashing the name of his band and their style of music. 

Recently, she's been very conversational, very touchy-feely, more than usual, and more interested in my day-to-day goings on. She's also been interested in my schedule (as it changes by the week). That started a year and a half ago when she asked me to print it out and stick it on the fridge so she'd know what times I was out at on what nights for work. That should have been a red flag there, but I thought nothing of it, as it can be an ever-shifting schedule week-to-week. 

What my "gut" is telling me, is that something's up, and there's a sketchiness to her recent behavior that is out of whack with how she usually is. 

What my problem-solving brain is rationalizing, is that if she is cheating, then the change of behavior VERY recently (the love bombing, interest in my day, in-depth questions into my hobbies that she never asked before - such as sports teams, who are they, what are the rules, etc), might mean she is either just starting an affair, or just got out of one. The announcement of this work guy's impending new baby would be cause for an end-of-an-affair, I would think?

My logical brain is saying "these are all coincidences, and there's a perfectly rational explanation for everything". 

I don't know which way to turn. Did some house snooping, nothing out of the ordinary turned up, no condoms, no condom wrappers, no receipts. Phone bill turned up a small few anomalies, but that's it, nothing concrete. I got to search her car, and again, nothing. Clean as a whistle. 

I asked about this on another site, and everyone's reaction was "she's cheating, now confront". 

But I guess what I'm asking here is - Am I possibly just imagining it all? If I go ahead and ask her, and ask for access to her phone (it's pin numbered and fingerprint-locked), will that cause a much bigger problem between us if I'm wrong? 

Or is the secrecy of using chat apps, locked phone, turning phone off in my presence at times, and facing the screen away from me, enough evidence to warrant at least a cursory search of her app usage?

This gut instinct thing I've only felt once - previous girlfriend from before I met my wife. She suddenly had a friend, she promised there was nothing going on, he took her out to see a sports game from a sport I don't like, she said nothing happened, I didn't buy it because "gut instinct", and sure enough, she broke up with me for him soon after. 

I'm like one of those ships trapped in ice - I need to move forward before the pressure crushes me, but I have no idea which way, or how, I can turn. 


Does anyone have any ideas? 

Thanks in advance!


----------



## jlg07

First, IF SHE is cheating DO NOT CONFRONT right now. You do NOT have the proof that you need to satisfy yourself.

A few suggestions -- you could put a few voice activated recorders around (in her car, where you think she would talk on the phone, etc.). You could 'hack' her phone to get any deleted texts, etc. (and not sure if they can grab word with friends/snapchat type of stuff) -- others will chime in on that. Can you get a hold of her phone while she is sleeping and before it locks? The phone seems to hold the most chance of seeing what she is up to. You could put a few micro cameras around to grab her pin, but the fingerprint reader may be more problemmatic.

You COULD hire a PI for a couple of weeks -- especially that she is leaving early (can YOU follow her when she leaves early ? Different car/etc. so she wouldn't recognize you?)

I think your gut should NOT be ignored, and you need to follow up on this. It certainly sounds sketchy to me what she is doing, esp. if she is now trolling dating sites. 

The touchy/feely and interested in your schedule could just be to find out MORE so that SHE can plan her time (with an OM presumably). Sounds like this is a misdirection on her part to try and make you think nothing is going on.


VERY sorry you are here.


----------



## DjDjani

Well,your wife is 99% cheating on you. Now,you will get a lot of good advice from other posters. LISTEN to them,they want to help you.


----------



## confusedmoi

jlg07 said:


> First, IF SHE is cheating DO NOT CONFRONT right now. You do NOT have the proof that you need to satisfy yourself.
> 
> A few suggestions -- you could put a few voice activated recorders around (in her car, where you think she would talk on the phone, etc.). You could 'hack' her phone to get any deleted texts, etc. (and not sure if they can grab word with friends/snapchat type of stuff) -- others will chime in on that. Can you get a hold of her phone while she is sleeping and before it locks? The phone seems to hold the most chance of seeing what she is up to. You could put a few micro cameras around to grab her pin, but the fingerprint reader may be more problemmatic.
> 
> You COULD hire a PI for a couple of weeks -- especially that she is leaving early (can YOU follow her when she leaves early ? Different car/etc. so she wouldn't recognize you?)
> 
> I think your gut should NOT be ignored, and you need to follow up on this. It certainly sounds sketchy to me what she is doing, esp. if she is now trolling dating sites.
> 
> The touchy/feely and interested in your schedule could just be to find out MORE so that SHE can plan her time (with an OM presumably). Sounds like this is a misdirection on her part to try and make you think nothing is going on.
> 
> 
> VERY sorry you are here.


Thank you for the reply. I had considered just asking her, as a matter of trust, to unlock her phone for me. Is that a bad idea?

Secondly, I don't think I would have the funds for a PI. I have been reading sites, and I've considered some sort of GPS tracker and a VAR. But not sure about the GPS thing - they all seem to be both expensive and needing to be plugged into some part of the actual car


----------



## confusedmoi

Just to add, too - I think I'm a good husband: I cook, clean, repair, work hard, and I compliment her and supported her through her schooling. 

But a dead bed situation is a prime instigator for someone to have an affair, right?


----------



## Rubix Cubed

Something is definitely up. You really need to get her phone and check the communication apps or if she backs it up maybe you can check from the back-up. Do not confront her until you have all the proof you feel you need. It will just make her cover her tracks better. Can you go by her work (early or late) or her teaching gig and see if she is where she says she is? The teaching thing sounds really suspicious, like that may have been her cover for getting together with someone else all along. How could she have students when she can just come and go when she pleases with no schedule?


----------



## Taxman

There could be any number of explanations, however, I always counsel clients that if there is a nagging suspicion, DO NOT play detective yourself. Use a professional. The reason private investigators cost money, is that they are worth it. They understand gathering evidence, while keeping the subject of surveillance in the dark. I suggest that you find a good PI, and have her followed. You will find out either way. Last summer, one of my older clients was concerned that her son in law seemed to be spending a lot of money, and was absent from the home a good deal of the time. I recommended a firm of PI's. He was followed, while his wife and children were at a familial vacation home. It took no more than 48 hours. He was in an affair with a female from his former employer's office. He had gone out on his own, in a new business with the express intent to remove as many assets from his wife and her family and funnel monies to the AP. Eventually, he was going to leave his wife and her family in the dust. Before confrontation, we presented ourselves to the bank, to show them transactions which were unauthorized and criminal in nature. We had 98% of those reversed with the bank's sincerest apologies, they stated that they wished to prosecute, and we said that we needed 24 hours before they could issue their charges. In that day, he was confronted, shown the transactions that were reversed, and told that he would be charged. His life was effectively over, as he was arrested and held. His wife refused his bond.


----------



## jlg07

Can you turn on HER GPS and have it tracked? I know that iPhones have something like that, and you can do the same with her google account (if you have access/pw) and watch where her phone has been.

I wouldn't ask her directly -- you MAY want to have a conversation with her about being married, and no secrets, that we should have each others email/passwords, FB account id/pw, phone id/etc (have her add YOUR fingerprint to her phone).

Not sure though -- if she is doing what you think, this will immediately put her on guard.

Do you have any really close friends that you could ask to borrow their car for a day? Then follow her when she leaves early for work?


----------



## confusedmoi

I'm not sure about the VAR in her car, though - certainly for phone calls, as they would surely turn up on the bill? Unless she's chat app calling, but I don't know if that works with her bluetooth enablement?

One thing I've just realized though - she used to always plug her phone in, whenever she drove us anywhere, so that she could make and receive calls on the move. Now she doesn't do that.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

confusedmoi said:


> But a dead bed situation is a prime instigator for someone to have an affair, right?


 Not necessarily an instigator, but a red flag. If she has an affair partner she may feel like having sex with you is cheating on him. You see that fairly often.


----------



## confusedmoi

jlg07 said:


> Can you turn on HER GPS and have it tracked? I know that iPhones have something like that, and you can do the same with her google account (if you have access/pw) and watch where her phone has been.
> 
> I wouldn't ask her directly -- you MAY want to have a conversation with her about being married, and no secrets, that we should have each others email/passwords, FB account id/pw, phone id/etc (have her add YOUR fingerprint to her phone).
> 
> Not sure though -- if she is doing what you think, this will immediately put her on guard.
> 
> Do you have any really close friends that you could ask to borrow their car for a day? Then follow her when she leaves early for work?


I could take a guess at her Google password, but she has an iPhone and I don't want to alert her by her getting a message for a login she doesn't know about. There's nothing incriminating on her laptop, though, as far as I can see. 

The lack of physical evidence is what makes me think I'm reading into it too much. 

The behavior, though, especially what I saw this morning, keeps my gut wrenching.


----------



## jlg07

confusedmoi said:


> Just to add, too -* I think I'm a good husband: I cook, clean, repair, work hard, and I compliment her and supported her through her schooling. *
> 
> But a dead bed situation is a prime instigator for someone to have an affair, right?


Unfortunately, YOU are not the cause of her cheating or wanting to cheat. SHE is 100% accountable for that.
No matter what lame excuse she would give you (you weren't around enough, you spent too much time at your job, you didn't listen to me.....), even if TRUE, none of that is a reason to cheat. It could be a reason to DIVORCE you, but not cheat.

As for the VAR -- you would have to put it in her car (many say velcro it under the seat) to listen in on any phone convo's she has while you are not in the car (if you do, make sure you try it out first and that any lights or beeps are turned off).

I still think a PI may be the way to go -- you should at least look into it before saying it is too much $$$$. It could give you real peace of mind (in either direction, if you get me).


----------



## TJW

confusedmoi said:


> we seem almost more like roommates than marital partners.
> 
> What my "gut" is telling me, is that something's up, and there's a sketchiness to her recent behavior that is out of whack with how she usually is.
> 
> Am I possibly just imagining it all?


No. It is not your imagination. These things come from years of knowing your wife, and your observation. Not imagination.



confusedmoi said:


> My logical brain is saying "these are all coincidences, and there's a perfectly rational explanation for everything".


Second clause of your sentence is absolutely correct. Cheating can be perfectly explained rationally. It's a fact, not a fairy-tale.

Ask any police detective, and he/she will tell you that "there's no such thing as coincidence".



confusedmoi said:


> If I go ahead and ask her, and ask for access to her phone (it's pin numbered and fingerprint-locked), will that cause a much bigger problem between us if I'm wrong?


Tell her how you feel, that you see things in her behavior that you cannot explain. Tell her that access to her phone and internet accounts would help you to feel more secure in your marriage.

The reaction you get will tell a large portion of "the story". My wife has access to every internet account, my phone has no password, I don't hide my phone from her. There's nothing whatsoever I keep secret from her.

I wouldn't need to be asked, but if I were asked, my wife's marital security is high on my list of provisions I want to deliver. I would immediately agree to it.


----------



## Taxman

In the game of divining, then proving malfeasance, the number one rule is: DO NOT SHOW YOUR CARDS UNTIL YOU KNOW THAT YOUR HAND IS THE WINNING HAND. Make sure that your evidence is incontrovertible, legitimate, and iron clad. That is why I recommend professionals. Their evidence cannot be confused.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

TJW said:


> Tell her how you feel, that you see things in her behavior that you cannot explain. Tell her that access to her phone and internet accounts would help you to feel more secure in your marriage.
> 
> The reaction you get will tell a large portion of "the story". My wife has access to every internet account, my phone has no password, I don't hide my phone from her. There's nothing whatsoever I keep secret from her.
> 
> I wouldn't need to be asked, but if I were asked, my wife's marital security is high on my list of provisions I want to deliver. I would immediately agree to it.


 If you go this route you MUST get her phone and access immediately at that point or she will erase everything. There have been some stories where wives freak out when asked and run into the bathroom, lock the door and delete everything then and there. That pretty much answers your question about guilt, but you have no evidence and will likely never get the full story. The only chance you have of knowing you got everything that was there is before a confrontation.


----------



## minimalME

confusedmoi said:


> Thank you for the reply. I had considered just asking her, as a matter of trust, to unlock her phone for me. Is that a bad idea?


This is more my way of doing things.

Do you really want to be with someone you can't talk to? Someone you have to spy on? Someone you don't trust?

So many here do the investigative thing, but to me that's much worse than simply asking for a divorce.


----------



## confusedmoi

Rubix Cubed said:


> If you go this route you MUST get her phone and access immediately at that point or she will erase everything. There have been some stories where wives freak out when asked and run into the bathroom, lock the door and delete everything then and there. That pretty much answers your question about guilt, but you have no evidence and will likely never get the full story. The only chance you have of knowing you got everything that was there is before a confrontation.



That's what I was thinking. I'd have to ambush her with the question, almost, so that she isn't on guard. 

My concern is what happens after, if everything is above board.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

confusedmoi said:


> That's what I was thinking. I'd have to ambush her with the question, almost, so that she isn't on guard.
> 
> My concern is what happens after, if everything is above board.


 Your concerns are legitimate. Her behavior is different. If everything is above board, GREAT, but her behavior alone would warrant you looking into things and there will be something, even if it's not what you expect. Something is making her change the way she normally acts.


----------



## confusedmoi

Rubix Cubed said:


> Your concerns are legitimate. Her behavior is different. If everything is above board, GREAT, but her behavior alone would warrant you looking into things and there will be something, even if it's not what you expect. Something is making her change the way she normally acts.


I couldn't even fathom what it might be, save for she has possibly now completely disengaged herself, perhaps? And is readying for a divorce request? Nothing else seems to point that way, though - although obviously I have no experience in this area. 

I can only think that she's either cheating, has come out of a cheating arrangement, or is about to step into one, and the recent over-positivity is some sort of compensation either for something she did or something she is about to do. 

She hasn't done any of the other signs - change her looks, increase her exercise, etc. She's a bit overweight, and it troubles her, and she's a pretty woman. But she hasn't decided to change her exercise habits. If anything, she's doing LESS exercise than previously. Actually scratch that - she's gone from exercising daily and looking after her diet, to abandoning that completely. Guilt-eating, perhaps?

As I said, if I could rationalize everything, I wouldn't be here. But little things keep happening that are not her norm, that keep my gut in a permanent state of flux. I haven't let on, save for being a bit down once I came to the realization of what might be happening. I put that down to work, though, when she asked. She said "Are you okay, you've been very quiet", and I said "I just have a lot of stress at work, and things on my mind". She replied "I don't like when you have things on your mind, it makes me uneasy". 

Perhaps she thought I suspected, and has put an end to whatever was happening?

And as soon as I type that, rational brain kicks in and says "You're overthinking it" :smile2:


----------



## VermiciousKnid

confusedmoi said:


> Thank you for the reply. I had considered just asking her, as a matter of trust, to unlock her phone for me. Is that a bad idea?
> 
> Secondly, I don't think I would have the funds for a PI. I have been reading sites, and I've considered some sort of GPS tracker and a VAR. But not sure about the GPS thing - they all seem to be both expensive and needing to be plugged into some part of the actual car


For the phone, I read an idea on one of these sites that I really like. The next time you two go out together leave your phone at home on purpose. When you're out say "Oh shoot, I need to call _____. I forgot my phone, let me use yours." If she won't hand it to you then you have your answer. If she does then step away to make your call and investigate.


----------



## confusedmoi

VermiciousKnid said:


> For the phone, I read an idea on one of these sites that I really like. The next time you two go out together leave your phone at home on purpose. When you're out say "Oh shoot, I need to call _____. I forgot my phone, let me use yours." If she won't hand it to you then you have your answer. If she does then step away to make your call and investigate.


Wouldn't be plausible with me - because of a childhood head injury, I have hearing problems so that hearing on a phone is painfully difficult, so I spend as little time on a phone as possible. It would have to be a text, which wouldn't require me to leave the vicinity.


----------



## Adelais

I think you need more concrete evidence. You are going to have to do the Voice Activated Recorder velcroed under her driver's seat, or under the dashboard. You may also need the PI help for pictures.

Try to get regular access to her phone by handing her a list of all your devices and passwords, as well as giving her full access to your phone. Use the excuse that she would need all that information should anything ever happen to you. After you have given her all that information, calmly and innocently ask for her to give you access to her phone and all accounts. Watch her face and listen to what she has to say.

If she gives you access to her phone, immediately borrow it for a while, before she can delete anything, if there is anything.

Make a list before hand of what you want to check on her phone.

If she is having or has had an affair, when you ask for her phone, she will get skittish and delete everything and take the affair more underground.


----------



## aine

VAR her car. Is there anyway you can put spyware on her laptop?
Something is off, that is why your gut is screaming


----------



## confusedmoi

aine said:


> VAR her car. Is there anyway you can put spyware on her laptop?
> Something is off, that is why your gut is screaming


The problem with the VAR is that surely she would be calling numbers that I would see on the bill? 

Although one time I got in her car and the passenger seat was moved. She said it was for her mom, but her mom is 5 feet tall - the seat had been moved backward. 

I'll look into the VAR thing. What's the "velcro" reference?

The computer looks clean, btw. I think all of her interactions are through her phone. That's why I know she's texting people through apps, because there are no corresponding text messages on the bill


----------



## happyhusband0005

confusedmoi said:


> Wouldn't be plausible with me - because of a childhood head injury, I have hearing problems so that hearing on a phone is painfully difficult, so I spend as little time on a phone as possible. It would have to be a text, which wouldn't require me to leave the vicinity.


I like this idea, and I like it even more based on your response. You figure out a very plausible situation, I have to let so and so know about an issue with a job he and I are working on before he goes over there, whatever, it's too complicated for a text message and given you hearing issues you need to get in a quite place so you can hear, maybe you need to run out to the car to use the bluetooth and crank the volume. 

Then you can look for any apps or screen shot every apps page on her phone with your phone which is actually hidden in the car. You will need to look for any apps that can be used for communication facebook messenger, snapchat, Google Hangouts (can also be used for calls), whatsapp etc. etc. etc.. Make sure you actually make a call for a minute or so with her phone so it shows up on there.

Better yet call someone form work so you if she calls them it all adds up. 

I agree with everyone saying get your evidence locked down before you let on at all that you're suspicious.


----------



## Noble1

Sorry to hear about your 'gut feelings'.

From what you wrote it does seem like something is up with your wife and it most likely is not good.

As others have said, do not confront unless you have your answers already.

Spend the money to find out and it will be well spent.

If you really cannot spend the money and cannot wait - you can do the asking about unlocking her phone in front of you and check BUT if she does not, this is the only real answer you are ever going to get on your own.

If your wife refuses to do so (about the phone) that is a big answer already so you have to decide if that one action/inaction is enough for you to make your decisions on staying with her or not.

Good luck.


----------



## FalCod

Perhaps it would be better, instead of putting all of your energy into catching your wife having an affair, if you put that energy into repairing your relationship with her. A sexless marriage is pretty much doomed anyway. Figure out what the issues are between you two and work on them.


----------



## confusedmoi

FalCod said:


> Perhaps it would be better, instead of putting all of your energy into catching your wife having an affair, if you put that energy into repairing your relationship with her. A sexless marriage is pretty much doomed anyway. Figure out what the issues are between you two and work on them.



If she's sleeping with someone else, is there a relationship to repair? 

I'd rather know that there isn't another person acting as a barrier to any repairs, before I waste energy trying to fix it.


----------



## TJW

minimalME said:


> So many here do the investigative thing, but to me that's much worse than simply asking for a divorce.


There's another aspect, whether it matters if you have cheating evidence..... or not....

I'm glad I went to an attorney. I was totally shocked to learn that the courts wouldn't care about cheating. I lived in a "no-fault" state.....only what was good for the kids, what was a fair and equitable division of assets, etc., would be considered at all.

The cost of a PI (and the cost of taking all that time away from my business, if I DIY) would have simply been wasted. Bottom line, it didn't matter whether she cheated, or not.


----------



## confusedmoi

TJW said:


> There's another aspect, whether it matters if you have cheating evidence..... or not....
> 
> I'm glad I went to an attorney. I was totally shocked to learn that the courts wouldn't care about cheating. I lived in a "no-fault" state.....only what was good for the kids, what was a fair and equitable division of assets, etc., would be considered at all.
> 
> The cost of a PI (and the cost of taking all that time away from my business, if I DIY) would have simply been wasted. *Bottom line, it didn't matter whether she cheated, or not.*


What does that last line mean?


----------



## anchorwatch

Don't confront until you have evidence, know where you stand and have a plan.

Start reading...

Standard Evidence Post

No More Mr Nice Guy

Welcome TAM CWI newbies- please read this

NOT "Just Friends"


----------



## happyhusband0005

Another option for you. Give her a phony schedule for a week that has you being out at times you will not have work, then watch what she does. Do some checks to see if someone shows up at the house or if she goes somewhere. Maybe you can catch her red handed.


----------



## confusedmoi

anchorwatch said:


> Don't confront until you have evidence, know where you stand and have a plan.
> 
> Start reading...
> 
> (snip)


Thank you!


----------



## confusedmoi

happyhusband0005 said:


> Another option for you. Give her a phony schedule for a week that has you being out at times you will not have work, then watch what she does. Do some checks to see if someone shows up at the house or if she goes somewhere. Maybe you can catch her red handed.


I don't think she's doing anything at the house. I'm sure I would have found evidence. Also, one of my best friends lives right across the road from us, so apart from the contractor guy mentioned earlier, if there is something going on, I think it's happening around her work location, hours, and possibly staff.


----------



## Noble1

Are you able to drop by at random times to say hi or take her out for lunch or drop off flowers just because?


----------



## confusedmoi

Noble1 said:


> Are you able to drop by at random times to say hi or take her out for lunch or drop off flowers just because?


Possibly. I have only been to her department once, and it's a labyrinthine building. 

What would be the purpose of that? Given that I've never done it before, I think that would only make HER suspicious of ME :grin2:


----------



## confusedmoi

Just a quick addition - we might have a dead bed, but she still tells me she loves me, and kisses me good night and goodbye in the morning, but they are just quick pecks. 

Is that immaterial to what she might be doing?


----------



## BluesPower

confusedmoi said:


> Just to add, too - I think I'm a good husband: I cook, clean, repair, work hard, and I compliment her and supported her through her schooling.
> 
> But a dead bed situation is a prime instigator for someone to have an affair, right?


Yes she is cheating, now doubt about it. 

My question is this, why are you in the marriage? Did the dead BR come from you are her? 

Why do you care? You are not sleeping with her why would you care who she sleeps with? 

I mean, not kids, dead BR, wife is cheating on you. 

What possible reason could you have for staying in the marriage???


----------



## sunsetmist

@anchorwatch has given you golden contacts. Don't let his advice get lost in the vast amount of responses.


----------



## Adelais

The Velcro is the way you secure the VAR so it doesn't fall out to be discovered. It is in the first link Anchorwatch gave you, called Standard Evidence Post.

https://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/209754-standard-evidence-post.html

The reason you want to have a VAR in the car is so that you can hear what she says to the people behind those phone numbers in her phone.

People having affairs often speak to their affair partner while in the car, where they think they have privacy and won't be caught.


----------



## confusedmoi

BluesPower said:


> Yes she is cheating, now doubt about it.
> 
> My question is this, why are you in the marriage? Did the dead BR come from you are her?
> 
> Why do you care? You are not sleeping with her why would you care who she sleeps with?
> 
> I mean, not kids, dead BR, wife is cheating on you.
> 
> What possible reason could you have for staying in the marriage???



Hold the horses there my friend 

I'm not at that stage yet. At least not in this conversation. The answer to that question is my business, although you make a good point. Right now, I'm just trying to ascertain whether I'm being paranoid because of an unusual and unexplained feeling of discomfort about her behavior, or whether there might be something to it. After that, what actions could I take? And after that, if I find something concrete, then I would think about the next step.

The simple answer to your question, though, is Catholic Guilt


----------



## confusedmoi

sunsetmist said:


> @anchorwatch has given you golden contacts. Don't let his advice get lost in the vast amount of responses.


I won't


----------



## confusedmoi

Araucaria said:


> The Velcro is the way you secure the VAR so it doesn't fall out to be discovered. It is in the first link Anchorwatch gave you, called Standard Evidence Post.
> 
> https://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/209754-standard-evidence-post.html
> 
> The reason you want to have a VAR in the car is so that you can hear what she says to the people behind those phone numbers in her phone.
> 
> People having affairs often speak to their affair partner while in the car, where they think they have privacy and won't be caught.


That makes sense. As I said, though, from a year and a half of call records, there's nothing that really stands out in that sense. Unless she's making calls through an app. So the idea is a good one. I'll definitely look into it.


----------



## Adelais

If she is cheating on you please don't have an affair too. That won't do either of you any good.

Get a divorce and then start dating again. Listen to that Catholic Guilt with regards to your marriage. 0


----------



## Adelais

confusedmoi said:


> That makes sense. As I said, though, from a year and a half of call records, there's nothing that really stands out in that sense. Unless she's making calls through an app. So the idea is a good one. I'll definitely look into it.


Some cheaters are clever enough to have a burner phone. If she has one of those you will not know about any calls made from it unless you hear her talking to him in her car after installing the VAR.

I hope all those red flags were just strange coincidences, although her looking at male profiles on her phone is not normal for a married woman.


----------



## confusedmoi

Araucaria said:


> Some cheaters are clever enough to have a burner phone. If she has one of those you will not know about any calls made from it unless you hear her talking to him in her car after installing the VAR.
> 
> I hope all those red flags were just strange coincidences, although her looking at male profiles on her phone is not normal for a married woman.


I managed to search her car last week. It's squeaky clean. Not even as much as a candy wrapper, let alone a phone. 

I might go out and buy a VAR tonight.


----------



## Chaparral

Just for example, Snapchat is a cheaters dream app.

Most guys that come here don’t have half the red flags you have seen. The very fact you have come here makes it a ninety percent chance she is cheating. She may even be hooking up with random guys on a hookup site from what you have said. 

Never never never give a clue what you suspect. You may never find the truth. Cheaters confess maybe one in a thousand times. 

She already suspects you suspect her. 

Either follow up on the evidence thread or get the PI. EVERY OTHER PLAN IS DOOMED.

Leaving to go to work early means she is meeting in a parking lot or office. Or she is going in early and leaving early for the hookup.

Why on earth do you think the married man doesn’t want to have an affair because he has a new kid? It happens all the time. 

Other suspects are customers, students, her friends, your friends even relatives. Trust me we have seen everything here even brother in laws and father in laws. Not to mention cousins and step brothers.


----------



## Chaparral

By the way, cheaters behave as if they are all reading from the same scripts. That why we all think she is cheating. No one that has been here for awhile will advise you to do anything but keep your head down till you KNOW what is going on.

You didn’t answer why your marriage was sexless or how long. Most women do not have sex with their husbands when cheating with one man.


----------



## confusedmoi

Chaparral said:


> By the way, cheaters behave as if they are all reading from the same scripts. That why we all think she is cheating. No one that has been here for awhile will advise you to do anything but keep your head down till you KNOW what is going on.
> 
> *You didn’t answer why your marriage was sexless or how long*. Most women do not have sex with their husbands when cheating with one man.


It's in the OP. She went back to school, I was working two jobs to support her, she was working one to pay for it, then she went back to school again, then her first job required 12 hour shifts that could be first, second or third shifts, so she was always tired because she usually chose third shift for the overtime, while I at that point went back to school myself, while still maintaining two jobs, and the classes were evening classes, then I had three jobs, then we ended up sleeping in separate rooms for a bit due to an injury I had, then we bought a new house, and after moving in, I tried to initiate a few times but she brushed it off with plausible excuses. Oddly enough, I didn't see those as flags - it was the more subtle changes that have set me off into a paranoid funk!


----------



## VladDracul

confusedmoi said:


> I've considered some sort of GPS tracker and a VAR. But not sure about the GPS thing - they all seem to be both expensive and needing to be plugged into some part of the actual car


It'll put you within 10 ft of her.

https://www.whistle.com/


----------



## Tobyboy

Like Chaparral said “everyone is suspect” including your best friend. So be careful who you confide in..Ok? 

Now the bad news. Your wife is gone. She just don’t have the guts to tell you. I would even say, subconsciously maybe.....she wants to get caught. I mean, come on! What else does she have to do for you to confront her?? Literally laying next to you, in bed, looking up potential hook ups without giving a f!!!

Look, things are fixing to to get bad and it’s coming quick! You better get ready!


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Why are you ignoring the classic signs of a cheater? As one poster said there is a 99% chance she is cheating, I say it is 99.99%.
Have you searched your house for lingerie and clothing you have never seen? Best advice I got three years ago was to keep my eyes open and mouth shut. 

Get her phone while she is asleep and try to crack to password. You know the answer....you are afraid to face the music. Fear not.
Be confident and dig dig dig.


----------



## BluesPower

confusedmoi said:


> Hold the horses there my friend
> 
> I'm not at that stage yet. At least not in this conversation. The answer to that question is my business, although you make a good point. Right now, I'm just trying to ascertain whether I'm being paranoid because of an unusual and unexplained feeling of discomfort about her behavior, or whether there might be something to it. After that, what actions could I take? And after that, if I find something concrete, then I would think about the next step.
> 
> The simple answer to your question, though, is Catholic Guilt


1) Guarding her phone, red flag. Shutting it off when you "Surprise" Her????
2) Leaving for work early, red flag!!! Going by his house, so he is single, to screw before work. Or meeting somewhere, a car even to screw, then he is married. 
3) No sex in your relationship.... HUGE RED FLAG, when accompanied by the above.
4) YOUR GUT FEELING, the biggest flag of all. Ask anyone. 
5) Basically, everything you wrote was a red flag.

I could go on and on, but suffice to say, she is cheating on you, probably for a while. 

And you know, we would all like to know why you care or why you are even in this marriage?

Yes it is your business, but tell you what. 

You follow the standard evidence post, put a VAR in her car, check your phone bill on line... and tell us what you find. 

Yeah, she is cheating... still don't know why it matters, unless you are in one of the fault states and you want a better deal in the divorce...


----------



## confusedmoi

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> Why are you ignoring the classic signs of a cheater? As one poster said there is a 99% chance she is cheating, I say it is 99.99%.
> Have you searched your house for lingerie and clothing you have never seen? Best advice I got three years ago was to keep my eyes open and mouth shut.
> 
> Get her phone while she is asleep and try to crack to password. You know the answer....you are afraid to face the music. Fear not.
> Be confident and dig dig dig.


I'm genuinely not afraid to face the music. She has an iPhone with passcode and fingerprint lock. She's a light sleeper. Getting into that phone is practically impossible. 

Searched the house for everything, found nothing. I thought I lucked into finding lingerie stuffed away, but no, it was a bathing suit. Car is clean. There's no physical evidence that I can make out. Logged onto her old laptop, but there's nothing in that at all (unless it's well hidden away). So perhaps anything that's happening is fairly recent.


----------



## confusedmoi

BluesPower said:


> 1) Guarding her phone, red flag. Shutting it off when you "Surprise" Her????
> 2) Leaving for work early, red flag!!! Going by his house, so he is single, to screw before work. Or meeting somewhere, a car even to screw, then he is married.
> 3) No sex in your relationship.... HUGE RED FLAG, when accompanied by the above.
> 4) YOUR GUT FEELING, the biggest flag of all. Ask anyone.
> 5) Basically, everything you wrote was a red flag.
> 
> I could go on and on, but suffice to say, she is cheating on you, probably for a while.
> 
> And you know, we would all like to know why you care or why you are even in this marriage?
> 
> Yes it is your business, but tell you what.
> 
> You follow the standard evidence post, put a VAR in her car, check your phone bill on line... and tell us what you find.
> 
> Yeah, she is cheating... still don't know why it matters, unless you are in one of the fault states and you want a better deal in the divorce...


Checked the phone bill - created a database from it for the past year and half of phone and texts. It's all in the OP. A few anomalies, but what's more of an anomaly is the communication she seems to have that doesn't have a corresponding text or call to explain it. Then this morning, spied her messaging someone, but there's no SMS recorded on the online bill. So she's using an app.


----------



## farsidejunky

A VAR really is your best shot if she's using apps.

I would like to ask you a more pressing question. Whether she's cheating or not, why do you not insist on a relationship with better intimacy?

Love yourself enough to refuse to tolerate the intolerable. And you know what? The only person who gets to determine what is intolerable for you is you.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## BluesPower

confusedmoi said:


> Checked the phone bill - created a database from it for the past year and half of phone and texts. It's all in the OP. A few anomalies, but what's more of an anomaly is the communication she seems to have that doesn't have a corresponding text or call to explain it. Then this morning, spied her messaging someone, but there's no SMS recorded on the online bill. So she's using an app.


Yes she is using an app. No way to use her finger while she sleeps? She sleeps that light. 

You know that married people should not keep their phone locked, right? My GF knows the code, nothing to hid. 

I am starting to think she is a long term cheater and she is really GOOD at it. 

There are whole web sites for learning to cheat better. 

I don't get it, you just let sex die and you did not thing anything about that? Really? 

Are you asexual, or super low drive, or did you think that this is the way marriage was? 

I don't get it? 

Did you guys EVER have sex?


----------



## confusedmoi

BluesPower said:


> Yes she is using an app. No way to use her finger while she sleeps? She sleeps that light.
> 
> You know that married people should not keep their phone locked, right? My GF knows the code, nothing to hid.
> 
> I am starting to think she is a long term cheater and she is really GOOD at it.
> 
> There are whole web sites for learning to cheat better.
> 
> I don't get it, you just let sex die and you did not thing anything about that? Really?
> 
> Are you asexual, or super low drive, or did you think that this is the way marriage was?
> 
> I don't get it?
> 
> Did you guys EVER have sex?


I had lifelong undiagnosed (minor!) heart issues that affected my circulation and BP. Only discovered it last year when I was rushed to hospital with a suspected heart attack. It wasn't. But the meds and life changes increased my libido way more than what it was, but as I mentioned earlier, she rejected my advances whenever I tried - not in a mean way, just didn't seem interested at the time (because I tried to be impulsive!). The rejection hurt a bit, and I lost some confidence, even though everything was back to working properly again.


----------



## skerzoid

confusedmoi:

Many times on this site we see highly logical people who come with "gut" feelings. However, because they are usually highly intelligent, they tend to ignore the advice of the mass of experienced people who try to help those who come here with questions. 

Sometimes they ignore the advice because they don't value it. Sometimes they question whether their spouse is capable of such treachery. They usually feel that they are smarter than unwashed masses. After all, its just an internet board.

Then they start making up excuses why their spouse is a special snow flake, or that their situation is a once in a lifetime thing that does not follow the usual mundane actions of common cheater affairs.

And often they return saying, "You were right."

Veterans on this board have seen stories like yours thousands of times. So when they see the evidence you have presented to us, they nod their heads and try to give you the unvarnished truth.

You ignore their advice at your peril. Please listen, learn, and take decisive action.


----------



## faithfulman

confusedmoi said:


> Checked the phone bill - created a database from it for the past year and half of phone and texts. It's all in the OP. A few anomalies, but what's more of an anomaly is the communication she seems to have that doesn't have a corresponding text or call to explain it. Then this morning, spied her messaging someone, but there's no SMS recorded on the online bill. *So she's using an app*.


Since she has an iPhone and if she is cheating and texting this person and he has an iPhone, chances are they are "iMessaging".

*iMessages go out over Wifi:* They will not show up on your phone bill's text message records.

***

*Passcode cracking:* You might be able to get her passcode by examining her screen for fingerprint smudges. I read somewhere once there is a way to make the smudges stand out more so you can identify the passcode.

***

*iMessages on Another iPhone:* If she has an old iPhone that you can turn on and connect to the internet you might find that the iMessages will show up on that device. For example, if an iPad and an iPhone are registered to the same account iMessages will show up on both devices.

***

*Track her phone's location on Another iPhone:* You might also be able to track the location of her iPhone using this corresponding device. Look in settings/find my iphone (Or something like that.)

***

*Check iCloud:* If you know the username/password for her iCloud account, all kinds of stuff might get backed up there including iMessages, location history, and photos.

***

*Keylogging:* If you have access to her computer, find and install a keylogger. This may lead to information that got deleted or get you passwords.

***

*Phone Undelete Software:* If you can access her phone OR PHONE BACKUPS ON HER COMPUTER - you can use this type of software to undelete texts, KIK, Whatsapp, a bunch of stuff. You can copy everything on her phone or from her backups and look through it thoroughly at your leisure. It take a while to copy though.

*Stay far away from Dr. Fone!* It sucks and can crash after an hour of work! I found that fonelab works well.

***

*Voice Activated Recorder Recommendation:* The Sony ICD-PX470, $50 - $60 works very well and the price is right. Find it at Best Buy and Amazon. I write a lot more about it in this thread: https://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/429347-long-life-var-suggestions.html#post19691249

***

*Email Research:* If you can access her email, research it like crazy and keep tabs on it. Many people do not cover their tracks well. For example many will forget to delete email from their sent items or even double-delete them from the trash.

***

*Private Investigator:* As many have said this is your best bet to find incontrovertible evidence.

***

*Take a Trip:* But don't really take a trip. See what happens.

***

*READ THE STANDARD EVIDENCE POST!!!*

As posted above: https://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/209754-standard-evidence-post.html

***

I agree with everyone else, don't ask any questions until you are pretty sure about the answers.

If I think of anything else I will post it.

Good luck to you confusedmoi. I hope it ends up you are just paranoid.


----------



## Kirk401

I'm no expert but from the brief amount of info you posted you don't seem to be very close/connected to your wife. Like how much time do you spend together per week one on one doing things together? Just because you sleep in the same room don't mean a thing.

I've seen so many of these posts on here where guys always say they are a model husband and their wife won't put out so the **** must be having an affair. There is usually more to it and the writing has been on the wall for years. 


As was posted above maybe she has moved on and maybe its time for you too. 

Sit down and ask her how she feels about you and your marriage.


----------



## confusedmoi

skerzoid said:


> confusedmoi:
> 
> Many times on this site we see highly logical people who come with "gut" feelings. However, because they are usually highly intelligent, they tend to ignore the advice of the mass of experienced people who try to help those who come here with questions.
> 
> Sometimes they ignore the advice because they don't value it. Sometimes they question whether their spouse is capable of such treachery. They usually feel that they are smarter than unwashed masses. After all, its just an internet board.
> 
> Then they start making up excuses why their spouse is a special snow flake, or that their situation is a once in a lifetime thing that does not follow the usual mundane actions of common cheater affairs.
> 
> And often they return saying, "You were right."
> 
> Veterans on this board have seen stories like yours thousands of times. So when they see the evidence you have presented to us, they nod their heads and try to give you the unvarnished truth.
> 
> You ignore their advice at your peril. Please listen, learn, and take decisive action.



I'm certainly not ignoring anyone's advice. But not everyone has the money to afford a PI, or has access to the phone in question, or has a laundry list of suspicious phone calls and texts to point out to. 

My initial question was about the chances that the gut feeling and weird odd subtle changes in behavior are all in MY mind. I know that if I have a gut feeling, there must be something in it. What I do if I find something out, is a different discussion. As I said in the OP, I prefer to have solid footing before I make a big leap. Right now, I have a "hunch" and no evidence. That doesn't mean I'm not prepared to do something, it just means I don't have enough to do something with - yet. 

Anyhoo - suddenly she has to teach a class tomorrow at 6.15am. No texts or calls to or from her phone, and she was at another location (supposedly) to teach a class tonight. So either she learned of this telepathically, she got asked to do it IN work, or it's BS and she has some plan with someone else. I don't know. But I'm adding it to my log of events


----------



## Tatsuhiko

It seems like her paychecks should reflect all of the "classes" she's teaching. Maybe you have access to her deposit records?

I agree with those who say you should trust your gut. I also agree that you should be very careful to build of on confronting her or even hinting about your suspicions. You want her to feel so confident about her deception that she gets careless and makes a mistake.

Definitely get started on the VAR. It might take weeks, but you'll eventually hear something, whether it's a conversation with a lover or her confiding in a friend.

When she goes to teach a "class" have you thought about checking the parking lot for her car? Have you ever looked at the car odometer to see if her trips are longer than the expected length? Do you have access to toll data if you live in an area of toll roads?


----------



## confusedmoi

Tatsuhiko said:


> It seems like her paychecks should reflect all of the "classes" she's teaching. Maybe you have access to her deposit records?
> 
> I agree with those who say you should trust your gut. I also agree that you should be very careful to build of on confronting her or even hinting about your suspicions. You want her to feel so confident about her deception that she gets careless and makes a mistake.
> 
> Definitely get started on the VAR. It might take weeks, but you'll eventually hear something, whether it's a conversation with a lover or her confiding in a friend.
> 
> When she goes to teach a "class" have you thought about checking the parking lot for her car? Have you ever looked at the car odometer to see if her trips are longer than the expected length? Do you have access to toll data if you live in an area of toll roads?


Following her is a possibility, or rather, not so much following but checking the car lot. There's a few parking lots, though, so I'm never sure where she's parked. If she's teaching a class at 6:15, then her car should be there at 6:15, right?


----------



## confusedmoi

So is a plan to buy an Android burner phone with Google location, stashing it in her car, and using Google location as a pseudo-GPS. 

Is that a viable plan?


----------



## faithfulman

confusedmoi said:


> So is a plan to buy an Android burner phone with Google location, stashing it in her car, and using Google location as a pseudo-GPS.
> 
> Is that a viable plan?


It's viable, but a real GPS tracker is probably superior and much easier to hide.

You probably don't even have to stash it inside the car.


----------



## confusedmoi

faithfulman said:


> It's viable, but a real GPS tracker is probably superior and much easier to hide.
> 
> *You probably don't even have to stash it inside the car*.




How so?


----------



## faithfulman

I've never used one myself, but they are small so you probably can stash it in the trunk - on TV they are magnetic so you can attach them under the car somehow or fender, hood etc.

Even if you have to place it in the car it will be easier to hide than a phone. 

I would research it on Google and Amazon, just make sure you do it in an incognito browser tab so it doesn't show up in your browser history.


----------



## VladDracul

confusedmoi said:


> How so?


Get the friggin dog tracker from Whistle, or a similar company,sign up for $10 bucks a month, stash it in her car and track her by phone or computer. It stays charged 7 days and, like I said, will put you within 10 feet of her car's location. For less than $100 bucks (American) including a couple of months "membership fees" and the will to track her, you can find out where she's going.


----------



## [email protected]

Confusedmoi, generally it works like this: If she's not screwing her husband, she's screwing someone else. Your gut is telling you to overrule your philosophy minor. It's not relevant here. Odds are that she's cheating.


----------



## Chaparral

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/s/ref=...hicles&sprefix=gps+tracker&crid=1KSLS6I8217TZ 

Looks like some trackers aren’t too expensive.

Did you check the numbers on the phone bill to see if the names match the numbers? For example is Suzy really a guy named Ted?

Can you check her email at all?

Did you go back through old phone bills to see what apps she has bought? Idk but others have said you can check that. Many games have chat features. 

Another possibility is checking on your router o see websites visited. I don’t know how but I have seen it done a few times here.

How much does a pi cost in your area? I doubt it would take more than two or three days. At least consult with one and get his take on this.


----------



## Chaparral

If she asks you what’s wrong do not let on you suspect something. Although you might ask her if she thinks a man and woman living together not having sex is normal. 

You would get more sex with a male roomate or living by yourself just by being able to go out and meet other women. 

Do you do a lot of cooking, cleaning etc. 

Download MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER to read what you should be doing in this sexless situation. It has great insight.


----------



## BluesPower

skerzoid said:


> confusedmoi:
> 
> Many times on this site we see highly logical people who come with "gut" feelings. However, because they are usually highly intelligent, they tend to ignore the advice of the mass of experienced people who try to help those who come here with questions.
> 
> Sometimes they ignore the advice because they don't value it. Sometimes they question whether their spouse is capable of such treachery. They usually feel that they are smarter than unwashed masses. After all, its just an internet board.
> 
> Then they start making up excuses why their spouse is a special snow flake, or that their situation is a once in a lifetime thing that does not follow the usual mundane actions of common cheater affairs.
> 
> And often they return saying, "You were right."
> 
> Veterans on this board have seen stories like yours thousands of times. So when they see the evidence you have presented to us, they nod their heads and try to give you the unvarnished truth.
> 
> You ignore their advice at your peril. Please listen, learn, and take decisive action.





confusedmoi said:


> I'm certainly not ignoring anyone's advice. But not everyone has the money to afford a PI, or has access to the phone in question, or has a laundry list of suspicious phone calls and texts to point out to.
> 
> My initial question was about the chances that the gut feeling and weird odd subtle changes in behavior are all in MY mind. I know that if I have a gut feeling, there must be something in it. What I do if I find something out, is a different discussion. As I said in the OP, I prefer to have solid footing before I make a big leap. Right now, I have a "hunch" and no evidence. That doesn't mean I'm not prepared to do something, it just means I don't have enough to do something with - yet.
> 
> Anyhoo - suddenly she has to teach a class tomorrow at 6.15am. No texts or calls to or from her phone, and she was at another location (supposedly) to teach a class tonight. So either she learned of this telepathically, she got asked to do it IN work, or it's BS and she has some plan with someone else. I don't know. But I'm adding it to my log of events


skerzoid's post is about one of the best explanations you will get, He is really good at boiling it down. 

I was not going to bring this up in the posts that I wrote to you before... But when I did this more than I do now, I literally had a record on another site of about a 1000 to one when I called these affairs. 

It was so funny the everyone would tell me I was crazy, even the OP, when I said yep, def an affair. 

But back to the first post. As long as I have been involved in this, not one person that had a GUT feeling has been wrong. NOT ONE. 

There is something almost supernatural going on that when a spouse has an affair, and the other spouse is not a complete moron, that feeling comes about. 

You keep your mouth shut and keep digging, you will find evidence of an affair. 

As far as a PI, the cost less than people might think and usually it takes the a couple of days to find the evidence, so just think about it. 

I suspect that you are wanting to get the evidence so you can divorce from the sexless marriage and not feel like the bad guy. Lots do that. 

The thing you should also understand is that a sexless marriage is reason enough to divorce in the first place...


----------



## confusedmoi

BluesPower said:


> *I suspect that you are wanting to get the evidence so you can divorce from the sexless marriage and not feel like the bad guy*. Lots do that.
> 
> The thing you should also understand is that a sexless marriage is reason enough to divorce in the first place...


I really don't. I moved 3500 miles away from everything I know, over a decade ago, for this marriage, so I'm invested in it. If there's nobody else, and everything is just a coincidence, then it will lead to a renewed effort to fix what's broken. If there is someone else, then the marriage is over for sure. I'm quite clear-headed about the possible outcomes. I'm just not used to "trusting my gut" and am interested to hear more experienced people's opinions. I'm not ignoring anything here, or deflecting, or unwilling to "face facts". I'm just naturally cautious about making big moves without the right information. 

For now, my philosophy, gleaned from here, is to sit tight, shut up, and keep my eyes and ears open.


----------



## Marc878

You at this point need to know. GPS her car. If it is an affair it isn't in her work place I doubt. So you should get the info you need. VAR would be good too she could be using a google app which may bypass your phone service.


----------



## confusedmoi

The mystery class this morning:

Looks like it checks out. I waited 15 minutes from when she left the house, then drove to her work place, so that I would arrive at 6:15 on the dot. If she was really teaching, her car would be in the lot. If she was off with someone else, then the car wouldn't be there.

The car was there, exactly where it should be, in fact. 

So at least today, there isn't anything to go on. Although I think she caught my ploy of spying on her by pretending to be asleep, with my glasses on. I'll have to be careful of that. Or get contacts.


----------



## Marc878

Unless someone picked her up and left her car there.

At this point it's more than just a gut feeling. 

Don't procrastinate. Get a GPS and VAR. it's the most cost effective way.


----------



## Marc878

confusedmoi said:


> The mystery class this morning:
> 
> Looks like it checks out. I waited 15 minutes from when she left the house, then drove to her work place, so that I would arrive at 6:15 on the dot. If she was really teaching, her car would be in the lot. If she was off with someone else, then the car wouldn't be there.
> 
> The car was there, exactly where it should be, in fact.
> 
> So at least today, there isn't anything to go on. *Although I think she caught my ploy of spying on her by pretending to be asleep, with my glasses on. *I'll have to be careful of that. Or get contacts.


What happened?


----------



## confusedmoi

*


Marc878 said:



Unless someone picked her up and left her car there.

Click to expand...

*


Marc878 said:


> At this point it's more than just a gut feeling.
> 
> Don't procrastinate. Get a GPS and VAR. it's the most cost effective way.


Why wouldn't she just go directly in her own car, is my question? 

But yes, those two things are on today's to-do list. However, if she's being picked up in someone's car, then GPS and VAR isn't going to be much help, really, no?


----------



## confusedmoi

Marc878 said:


> What happened?


She saw me "asleep" with my glasses on, and asked why I had my glasses on. I said I had to put them on to see the time on my phone when the alarm went off, and forgot to take them back off


----------



## Marc878

confusedmoi said:


> *
> 
> Why wouldn't she just go directly in her own car, is my question?
> 
> But yes, those two things are on today's to-do list. However, if she's being picked up in someone's car, then GPS and VAR isn't going to be much help, really, no?*


*

One data point does not make a trend. 

At this time with cost limitations gps/var is all you've got.

Unless you just want to confront, ask for her phone but in most cases that doesn't work well. If she is cheating most lie, hide and deny.

You still don't know. Let's hope it isn't what everyone thinks it is. Sorry but most of the time it is unfortunately.*


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Act normal. You are giving away your game plan. You need to not do anything to tip your hand. She is cheating. She is one step ahead of you it appears at all times. You need to step your game up my good man. Listen to those who have to you to get a VAR. 

If it was me, I would just grad her phone and head straight to a techie place and have them snoop her phone. How could your relationship get much worse? What do you have to lose at this point? She appears to have already checked out from what you post. What are you so afraid of? Being timid will accomplish nothing. Be bold!


----------



## faithfulman

confusedmoi said:


> The mystery class this morning:
> 
> Looks like it checks out. I waited 15 minutes from when she left the house, then drove to her work place, so that I would arrive at 6:15 on the dot. If she was really teaching, her car would be in the lot. If she was off with someone else, then the car wouldn't be there.
> 
> The car was there, exactly where it should be, in fact.
> 
> So at least today, there isn't anything to go on. Although I think she caught my ploy of spying on her by pretending to be asleep, with my glasses on. I'll have to be careful of that. Or get contacts.


While I am not 100% convinced your wife is currently cheating on you as some other posters are, just the fact that she was in the class does not prove or disprove anything.

Sometimes in an affair a woman just tries to be near or spend time with her affair partner. I would check into who is in these spur of the moment classes to see if there is a recurring man, though that may be difficult.


----------



## faithfulman

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> Act normal. You are giving away your game plan. You need to not do anything to tip your hand. She is cheating. She is one step ahead of you it appears at all times. You need to step your game up my good man. Listen to those who have to you to get a VAR.
> 
> *If it was me, I would just grad her phone and head straight to a techie place and have them snoop her phone.* How could your relationship get much worse? What do you have to lose at this point? She appears to have already checked out from what you post. What are you so afraid of? Being timid will accomplish nothing. Be bold!


That won't work unless he has the passcode for her iPhone. If he can spy the passcode then gaining access to the phone + undelete software will reveal quite bit.


----------



## aine

confusedmoi said:


> Following her is a possibility, or rather, not so much following but checking the car lot. There's a few parking lots, though, so I'm never sure where she's parked. If she's teaching a class at 6:15, then her car should be there at 6:15, right?


A class at 6.15am, that is rather odd time to have a class. Who is the class for at that unearthly hour? Does that make sense to anyone?


----------



## confusedmoi

aine said:


> A class at 6.15am, that is rather odd time to have a class. *Who is the class for at that unearthly hour? *Does that make sense to anyone?


Medical staff


----------



## confusedmoi

faithfulman said:


> That won't work unless he has the passcode for her iPhone. If he can spy the passcode then gaining access to the phone + undelete software will reveal quite bit.


And her fingerprint


----------



## Kirk401

Why not just talk to your wife already!


----------



## BluesPower

Kirk401 said:


> Why not just talk to your wife already!


This is really simple. 

He has the red flags, and for whatever reason he wants to hang on to the marriage. 

If he confronts her before he has incontrovertible evidence, she will deny, and lie, and take the affair underground, if she has not already because of his questions. 

So it does him no good. While many of us would have already filed for divorce, some men really think they can change the dynamic of the marriage and "Win" her back. It never works, but they try. 

However, if you cannot put the proof in her face, she will deny the affair. 

The way that you are thinking really does not work...


----------



## Rowan

confusedmoi said:


> And her fingerprint


Are you saying she has her phone set up to require her fingerprint _and_ a code? Normally, you can use either. My fingerprints will open my phone. I don't have to input the code if I use my fingerprints. My SO knows the code for my phone. He doesn't need my fingerprint to open the phone when he inputs the code.


----------



## dadstartingover

confusedmoi said:


> Just to add, too - I think I'm a good husband: I cook, clean, repair, work hard, and I compliment her and supported her through her schooling.


None of these have any impact on your wife's sexual attraction towards you or keep her from having an affair. You're an excellent provider... but she needed more in the lover category, so she had an affair. That about sums it up. Welcome to the club.


----------



## Torninhalf

I think Blues is spot on...even with actual proof they will lie. I am not saying one way or another if she is cheating but the very first thing I noticed when my husband started his affair was his phone possessiveness and a change in demeanor. That is when I first questioned him, of course with no proof he became "offended" that I would even suggest that. Get proof then confront her.


----------



## BluesPower

Rowan said:


> Are you saying she has her phone set up to require her fingerprint _and_ a code? Normally, you can use either. My fingerprints will open my phone. I don't have to input the code if I use my fingerprints. My SO knows the code for my phone. He doesn't need my fingerprint to open the phone when he inputs the code.


I was wondering that as well. My phone does either or, but I never thought to make it do both. 

Actually, checking on google, it should be either or. It will MAKE you use the passcode if the phone has been off for an amount of time or restarted. 

But everything I find says that it is either or...


----------



## 3Xnocharm

confusedmoi said:


> The mystery class this morning:
> 
> Looks like it checks out. I waited 15 minutes from when she left the house, then drove to her work place, so that I would arrive at 6:15 on the dot. If she was really teaching, her car would be in the lot. If she was off with someone else, then the car wouldn't be there.
> 
> The car was there, exactly where it should be, in fact.
> 
> So at least today, there isn't anything to go on. Although I think she caught my ploy of spying on her by pretending to be asleep, with my glasses on. I'll have to be careful of that. Or get contacts.


Close girlfriend of mine was cheating on her husband. She would park her car at the gym and her AP would pick her up in the parking lot. That way when her husband went looking, it appeared she was where she said she was. Just something to keep in mind. Glad to see that you are checking things out at least. Always always listen to your gut.


----------



## confusedmoi

BluesPower said:


> I was wondering that as well. My phone does either or, but I never thought to make it do both.
> 
> Actually, checking on google, it should be either or. It will MAKE you use the passcode if the phone has been off for an amount of time or restarted.
> 
> But everything I find says that it is either or...


Really? Is it a 4-digit passcode? Because if so, she uses the same one for lots of things. If it's not that, then there's something shady


----------



## BluesPower

confusedmoi said:


> Really? Is it a 4-digit passcode? Because if so, she uses the same one for lots of things. If it's not that, then there's something shady


Info I am getting, and while a tech guy phones are not my deal, says that Iphones from 5 on can use a passcode or a finger print. 

Sometimes you are forced to you your passcode like I said before, but the finger print unlocks the phone. 

Now, we need to look for an app for iphones that you can lock with a pass code and that may be a clue...


----------



## TDSC60

Oh crap......medical staff.

The medical field is near the top of the list for professions rampant with infidelity.

Also if her job is in a hospital or large medical facility, finding a secluded space to be alone is not a problem.


----------



## Chaparral

My iPhone has a six digit number or letters.

Why do you want to stay in a sexless marriage?


----------



## BluesPower

TDSC60 said:


> Oh crap......medical staff.
> 
> The medical field is near the top of the list for professions rampant with infidelity.
> 
> Also if her job is in a hospital or large medical facility, finding a secluded space to be alone is not a problem.


Yeah, I was not going to say that as he has enough on his plate already. 

But of course you are 1000% right...


----------



## FoolishOne

Duplicate post.


----------



## FoolishOne

dadstartingover said:


> confusedmoi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just to add, too - I think I'm a good husband: I cook, clean, repair, work hard, and I compliment her and supported her through her schooling.
> 
> 
> 
> None of these have any impact on your wife's sexual attraction towards you or keep her from having an affair. You're an excellent provider... but she needed more in the lover category, so she had an affair. That about sums it up. Welcome to the club.
Click to expand...

The way you say that makes it seem like he simply isn't atractive or sexy enough..... kinda victim blaming right? Like "oh well guess you're not ENOUGH for your wife." Just my observation.


----------



## faithfulman

confusedmoi said:


> Really? Is it a 4-digit passcode? Because if so, she uses the same one for lots of things. If it's not that, then there's something shady


If you know her "usual pin number" then get that phone in your hand for 10 seconds and try it!


----------



## red oak

confusedmoi said:


> Just a quick addition - we might have a dead bed, but she still tells me she loves me, and kisses me good night and goodbye in the morning, but they are just quick pecks.
> 
> Is that immaterial to what she might be doing?


When she goes to kiss you before going to work, swing her into a quick dip and kiss her. See how she reacts.


----------



## red oak

Not saying your gut is right or wrong. She isn't or is.
Being your feelings are lacking credence evaluate yourself also.

Do a quick self-evaluation. Has anything happened lately which could make you feel less than deserving of her or love? Etc.


----------



## Tomara

Does she have a credit card you don’t share? This was one way I caught my ex. Gut feelings are not something to ignore. I am like everyone else, just var/gps her car. It’s better than asking tons of questions and still not knowing. My iPhone takes either the thumb or my 4 digit code, I don’t have to use both. Have you looked in her purse? I checked my ex’s wallet to find him carrying large amounts of cash with no withdrawals from our account. Just some thoughts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## OutofRetirement

Top warning of cheating is hiding or guarding the phone. Second is emotionally distant.

I suggest staying silent about your concerns, but keep your eyes and ears open.

You have several suspects:
1) (Now former) contractor
2) Ex from before you, who is in a band
3) Co-worker
4) Dating website

I agree she is changing.

Frequently in your situation, what happens is another guy starts blowing smoke up her butt, or she sees or talks with a guy and for whatever reason feels a spark. Then, this re-awakens her romantic and sexual feelings. Whether that is true, or if she did something about it, or she considered it or still is considering it or is currently doing it - you and her are vulnerable to it right now because of both of your lack of attention to the romantic and sexual relationship between the two of you. It does sound like you live like brother and sister. Based on what you posted so far, I would say the two of you have a basic policy of "do nothing and hope for the best" as far as your relationship.

If you make an analogy of a romantic relationship of a garden, you are letting the garden live by itself. Hoping that there is enough rain for watering and the soil has enough natural fertilizers in it. You stopped having sex basically out of it being too difficult to schedule it and stay awake. Not only that, since you did not post anything, I am assuming that you don't talk about the lack of sex too much. You tried a few times, she brushed you off. 

I think it's time for you to talk to her - not about your suspicions - but about your marriage and what you both are playing at - no sex, ALWAYS either too tired or it does not fit in the schedule. When you confront her about the current disrepair of your relationship, I think you will get some good information as to what actually is going on. Either she will agree with you and agree to start fixing it, or she will tell you nothing is wrong (which is bad news), or she will tell you some really bad news like "I love you but I'm not 'in love' with you" or "I haven't been 'in love' with you for a long time now" (which is cheater-speak in the Webster-Mirriam Cheater Dictionary defines that as "I am cheating.")


----------



## confusedmoi

OutofRetirement said:


> Top warning of cheating is hiding or guarding the phone. Second is emotionally distant.
> 
> I suggest staying silent about your concerns, but keep your eyes and ears open.
> 
> You have several suspects:
> 1) (Now former) contractor
> 2) Ex from before you, who is in a band
> 3) Co-worker
> 4) Dating website
> 
> I agree she is changing.
> 
> Frequently in your situation, what happens is another guy starts blowing smoke up her butt, or she sees or talks with a guy and for whatever reason feels a spark. Then, this re-awakens her romantic and sexual feelings. Whether that is true, or if she did something about it, or she considered it or still is considering it or is currently doing it - you and her are vulnerable to it right now because of both of your lack of attention to the romantic and sexual relationship between the two of you. It does sound like you live like brother and sister. Based on what you posted so far, I would say the two of you have a basic policy of "do nothing and hope for the best" as far as your relationship.
> 
> If you make an analogy of a romantic relationship of a garden, you are letting the garden live by itself. Hoping that there is enough rain for watering and the soil has enough natural fertilizers in it. You stopped having sex basically out of it being too difficult to schedule it and stay awake. Not only that, since you did not post anything, I am assuming that you don't talk about the lack of sex too much. You tried a few times, she brushed you off.
> 
> I think it's time for you to talk to her - not about your suspicions - but about your marriage and what you both are playing at - no sex, ALWAYS either too tired or it does not fit in the schedule. When you confront her about the current disrepair of your relationship, I think you will get some good information as to what actually is going on. Either she will agree with you and agree to start fixing it, or she will tell you nothing is wrong (which is bad news), or she will tell you some really bad news like "I love you but I'm not 'in love' with you" or "I haven't been 'in love' with you for a long time now" (which is cheater-speak in the Webster-Mirriam Cheater Dictionary defines that as "I am cheating.")


Nail firmly banged on head, accurately. 

Being prone to depression, I could see the signs of a serious bout upcoming, which would cripple me as my last bout did many years ago. I wasn't about to let that happen. 

So tonight when she came home, with her McDonalds dinner in hand, I told her I needed to talk to her. I assured her it wasn't a matter of trust but peace of mind, and reminded her that I am normally logical to which she agreed. Explained my gut feelings, explained that if it was one thing on it's own I wouldn't have noticed, but a group of minor and subtle behavior and schedule changes over a sustained period of time, got me worried, and that some things didn't add up. So then I asked her outright - "Are you cheating?"

She burst out laughing.

She thought it was the funniest thing she'd heard in ages. Because she couldn't believe I thought she was attractive enough to be hit on by other men. 

I talked about the early work days and lack of texts. So I asked her if I could see her phone. 

She unlocked it and handed it over, and reminded me that when she got it, she offered to put my thumb print on it so I could unlock it whenever I needed. I'd forgotten about that. 

So I opened up a page on my computer that showed iPhone secret apps, and looked. Absolutely nothing out of the ordinary. Looked at her messages, cross-referenced them with dates and times, they all stacked up. She showed me the ones about the extra hours work - stacked up, including apologies from her female boss for keeping her in so late. Checked location history - work, home, work, home, store - exactly as it should be. 

We talked about our love life. We agreed to begin fixing it, planning a weekend away as soon as we can. The over-explanations were her attempts to engage in more conversation, dinner thing wasn't canceled, there was no room, and the person I thought she was using as cover I actually mixed up with someone else, who would make more sense. The contractor was a kid looking for extra hours, straight out of his apprenticeship, and the friend she was supposed to help DOES work there - she was out with a battle with cancer, and has lost her confidence since returning. She showed me the messages backing that up.

The dating-site looking thing? Some game she plays. She showed it to me. The lack of intimacy? She confessed to being nervous to initiate anything, because she's not one for sharing her feelings openly and readily about intimate desires. 

So we resolved to make our bed and communication better, so that we could start again, and add some spice back into "Us". 

So it turns out - perhaps for one of the very rare times? - that although my gut feeling that something was off was correct, it wasn't correct where I thought it would be. What I was picking up on, was her making an effort. And we'd drifted so far apart that I couldn't recognize that, and she couldn't recognize those times when I was trying to be amorous, because she forgot what my "moves" were. 

So we're going to fix it. Where that leads, I don't know. But it won't be for want of trying. 

I'd like to thank everyone for their help and advice. It seems, though, this time there's a happy ending.

Good luck to everyone. I'm not sure if I have anything further to contribute to this forum given my current outcome. For now, I definitely don't have the experience some others have. But I do hope that any future new posters to this forum have as decent an outcome as I apparently did!


----------



## BluesPower

There will be a time in the future when you finally figure this out. 

She has been cheating, and she will continue to. Yeah, I know that you think me and everyone else is crazy. 

You would be wrong. But do us a favor, when you finally find out that she has been cheating on you, have to courage to come back and tell us.


----------



## faithfulman

confusedmoi said:


> I'd like to thank everyone for their help and advice. It seems, though, this time there's a happy ending.
> 
> Good luck to everyone. I'm not sure if I have anything further to contribute to this forum given my current outcome. For now, I definitely don't have the experience some others have. But I do hope that any future new posters to this forum have as decent an outcome as I apparently did!


I'm very happy for you - this appears to be a good result.

Now if I were you I would run that phone through some undelete software.

If you find nothing, that's great and best of luck to you and your wife!


----------



## manwithnoname

As much as I like happy endings, my gut tells me some things I will share with you.

Most people get upset or angry when being asked if they are cheating. Innocent people get upset and cheaters get angry. Your wife laughed.

Makes me think she was expecting and prepared for that question. Possibly coached by one of those "how to get away with cheating" sites. Wipes phone clean all the time, covers tracks, has an explanation for everything. 

Remember the odd behaviour when you caught her off guard by unexpectedly coming back into the room?

I hope I'm wrong.

Do not drop your guard


----------



## Chaparral

You should have had the conversation about the lack of a serious relationship without exposing your suspicions. Hopefully, you are on the right track. In many years only one other situation like this that I know of turned out to be nothing. That’s why we still have ours.

Even if things turn out to be as you say, let’s us know how things are progressing. Read the MMSLP book and get you and your wife the FIVE LOVE LANGUAGES book for you both. This forum
Isn’t just about cheating.

Why does she think she is unattractive? Are you attractive? Do you work out? You should, especially if you are prone to depression.


----------



## Edmund

Confused moi, please update us in a few months as to how it’s going for you. I hope it is a happy ending as there are too few of those on these forum.


----------



## skerzoid

confusedmoi said:


> Nail firmly banged on head, accurately.
> 
> The dating-site looking thing? Some game she plays. She showed it to me.
> 
> I'd like to thank everyone for their help and advice. It seems, though, this time there's a happy ending.


confusedmoi;

Keep an eye on the game. Believe it or not, there are many stories of cheaters using games as their main form of communication.

If anything else starts to work on your gut again, don't be afraid to return and talk about it again.

Other than that, good luck! :smile2:


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Edmund said:


> Confused moi, please update us in a few months as to how it’s going for you. I hope it is a happy ending as there are too few of those on these forum.


Yes, THIS... would be a good change of pace around here!


----------



## Rubix Cubed

confusedmoi said:


> So it turns out - perhaps for one of the very rare times? - *that although my gut feeling that something was off was correct, it wasn't correct where I thought it would be.* What I was picking up on, was her making an effort. And we'd drifted so far apart that I couldn't recognize that, and she couldn't recognize those times when I was trying to be amorous, because she forgot what my "moves" were.
> 
> So we're going to fix it. Where that leads, I don't know. But it won't be for want of trying.
> 
> I'd like to thank everyone for their help and advice. It seems, though, this time there's a happy ending.
> 
> Good luck to everyone. I'm not sure if I have anything further to contribute to this forum given my current outcome. For now, I definitely don't have the experience some others have. But I do hope that any future new posters to this forum have as decent an outcome as I apparently did!





Rubix Cubed said:


> Your concerns are legitimate. Her behavior is different. If everything is above board, GREAT, but her behavior alone would warrant you looking into things and *there will be something, even if it's not what you expect.* Something is making her change the way she normally acts.


 Good job. I hope this turns out for the better for you. As others have said it would be refreshing for a change. As I told you earlier There will be a reason and you had every right to address it. You did well.
I would reiterate what @skerzoid said about the game. Many have their own communication built in and that's a regular tactic. Definitely worth keeping an eye on, and probably worth a quick peek to check. It would be great to hear back from you after a while to see how things are going. You'd also have the privilege of wrecking @BluesPower 's batting average if you end up being right.  
Best of luck.
RC


----------



## [email protected]

Uh, huh, nope. We've all seen this WW reaction before. She's still cheating.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Remain vigilant. Something is amiss.


----------



## syhoybenden

"The dating-site looking thing? Some game she plays. She showed it to me."

Was it Words With Friends? That's a well known cheating app. Has a self erasing chat feature.

There's craploads of similar ones out there.

Sign yourself up on the one you found and check it out.


----------



## SunCMars

On the Var in the Car.

The seat pulled way back.. hmm.

I know, I know, your phone bill does not show any unusual calls.

But.
Butt, whose butt sat in the passenger seat?

She may invite others into her car at lunch time, before, or after work.
She is the lunch or the before or after snack for some hungry man.

Buy the Var, install it. 
She is very savvy, this one, this lady of yours'.
Yep.

On the dead bed, her wanting to fix that?
To liven it up; it again going up and down?

She knows you need sex, what man does not?
And yet, she did not ask you, "Hey, what is the problem?"


She will do whatever it takes to keep you fat and happy.....and in the dark.

Too many flags flying and some of them 'yet' remain beet red.

Get busy snoopin' and Var'in.


----------



## SunCMars

The Var in the Car will record voices and noises in her car. All of them above a whisper, even those silenced by unshaven whiskers.

Those prikly ones.
Ouch!


----------



## SunCMars

Suspicions derive from a suspicious Nature.

From Nature we get a nose, and fingers to feel for things up...or down whatever works.

We get eyes to keep us posted on activities that trigger a deep-found worries.

We get ears to hear suspicious words.

Once suspicious, it takes Calamine Lotion to stop the itch.

The itch to keep searching. 

You have been given Calamine Lotion by her.

It treats the symptoms, not the cause of the itch.

The cause of the itch?

Those raggedy red flags that rub you the wrong way.
Mostly against the grain, against the grist of the Truth.



SunCMars-


----------



## faithfulman

I think the thrust of what we are all telling you is "Trust but Verify".

She gave you access, now do your due diligence!


----------



## confusedmoi

This one isn't over. Both Spokeo and White Pages have her as owning another cell phone, with the last digit just one number off. 

As much as I want to believe her, and as freely as she gave me her phone, that stuff is just too damn sketchy. 

And she still can't explain that site I saw her on, on her phone, with the profiles. 

I think Blues Power's batting average may remain intact. 

If she has a second phone, though, I don't know where she's hiding it. I couldn't find anything in her car, unless there's a secret compartment I don't know about. 

Any ideas where a second phone might be hidden?


----------



## Kamstel

Do the websites also list the phone that you know about?

Do the websites mention who the carrier is? If so, you might call them and ask to change the billing information to your house. But even if they do confirm the number, then you know at least it exists

If she knows you suspect something, she might be going very deep in hiding the relationship and the phone. The relationship might be totally on hold, with zero communication for a month or two until you are lulled back into a sense of security. If the phone does exist, it is probably at work where you can’t find it.


----------



## confusedmoi

Kamstel said:


> Do the websites also list the phone that you know about?
> 
> Do the websites mention who the carrier is? If so, you might call them and ask to change the billing information to your house. But even if they do confirm the number, then you know at least it exists
> 
> If she knows you suspect something, she might be going very deep in hiding the relationship and the phone. The relationship might be totally on hold, with zero communication for a month or two until you are lulled back into a sense of security. If the phone does exist, it is probably at work where you can’t find it.


The carrier is our same carrier, but it's not on our account (obviously).

I can play the long game


----------



## faithfulman

confusedmoi said:


> This one isn't over. Both Spokeo and White Pages have her as owning another cell phone, with the last digit just one number off.
> 
> As much as I want to believe her, and as freely as she gave me her phone, that stuff is just too damn sketchy.
> 
> And she still can't explain that site I saw her on, on her phone, with the profiles.
> 
> I think Blues Power's batting average may remain intact.
> 
> If she has a second phone, though, I don't know where she's hiding it. I couldn't find anything in her car, unless there's a secret compartment I don't know about.
> 
> Any ideas where a second phone might be hidden?


This phone number is one digit different from her normal number? Sounds like an error.

Block caller ID and call the number to see what happens.

***

Confuedmoi, at this point you either want to know or you don't want to know.

- Have you gotten hold of her phone and checked for deleted information using Fonelab?
- Have you gotten a VAR yet and strategically planted it?
- Have you gotten a GPS?
- Anything else that has been suggested or you read in the surveillance thread?

Have you done anything other than unwisely alert her of your suspicions?

Unless you are afraid to learn the truth, do your homework and find out for yourself.

Sorry to be so rough but it seems like you are looking for answers here and we cannot provide them to you.

Everybody will have their opinion and on this board, most of those opinions will be: "She's cheating bro".

It will make you crazy.

People here will help you but you must take the steps to help yourself.

Good luck.

***

P.S. What do you mean "she can't explain the site with the profiles"? I thought it was some game app. What am I missing?


----------



## Kamstel

Call the carrier and ask about the phone number


----------



## confusedmoi

"This phone number is one digit different from her normal number? Sounds like an error."

Both sites have her as being owner of both numbers - her regular one, and this other one.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Kamstel said:


> Call the carrier and ask about the phone number


Call in about that number, when the rep asks you to identify yourself give your name and say you're calling on behalf of <wifes name>, if the name matches the account the rep will ask for a password or some other personal identifier. If you can provide that info, which aside from a password you probably can, you can ask questions about the account like when it was set up and verify that your home address is the billing address. Then ask for a detailed call list to be sent to the billing address. 

If it's an error the rep will tell you either that it's not a valid number, or the name you provided is not the correct name for the account. In the latter case it doesn't prove innocence, it could still be hers just not under her name. At that point I'd start calling it.


----------



## confusedmoi

According to T-Mobile, that number doesn't exist. Bad Christmas to Spokeo and White pages anyway.


----------



## skerzoid

confusedmoi said:


> "This phone number is one digit different from her normal number? Sounds like an error."
> 
> Both sites have her as being owner of both numbers - her regular one, and this other one.


Have you looked in her purse? In the space in the car trunk where the spare tire is? Lingerie drawer of her dresser? Make up bag? Places where you never would usually look. >


----------



## skerzoid

Also, you may get on the game under an assumed name, look them up by their user names. See if they will converse with you or if you can see their conversations. Do not identify yourself. Probably a stretch.


----------



## BarbedFenceRider

confusedmoi said:


> This one isn't over. Both Spokeo and White Pages have her as owning another cell phone, with the last digit just one number off.
> 
> As much as I want to believe her, and as freely as she gave me her phone, that stuff is just too damn sketchy.
> 
> And she still can't explain that site I saw her on, on her phone, with the profiles.
> 
> I think Blues Power's batting average may remain intact.
> 
> If she has a second phone, though, I don't know where she's hiding it. I couldn't find anything in her car, unless there's a secret compartment I don't know about.
> 
> Any ideas where a second phone might be hidden?



Regardless of your WW. You need to be working on YOU. You are waaaay to passive. And you need to start analysing what you want in a relationship, and what you expect from a life partner. You obviously DO NOT KNOW as of now. Not trying to be jerky, but seriously, you need to find YOU. You are just a spectator in this. And you appear weak. Women will jump ship everytime. It's good that you have your red flags raised. But don't be surprized that even if it isn't a affair. Its a walk away wife or planned divorce. I am not buying that she is actively trying to rekindle any type of romance. 15 years of living with someone doesn't cut the mustard with this. I still think she isn't being honest with you. She probably doesn't want to hurt you with the truth that you are a great roomate and a lousy lover...

And no, you cannot take that one back. It just is. Start working on yourself and your own physical, spiritual being. Enough with this depression crap. Get some couselling and start a new path for a happier you. THAT will work wonders for the libido dept.


----------



## confusedmoi

BarbedFenceRider said:


> Regardless of your WW. You need to be working on YOU. You are waaaay to passive. And you need to start analysing what you want in a relationship, and what you expect from a life partner. You obviously DO NOT KNOW as of now. Not trying to be jerky, but seriously, you need to find YOU. You are just a spectator in this. And you appear weak. Women will jump ship everytime. It's good that you have your red flags raised. But don't be surprized that even if it isn't a affair. Its a walk away wife or planned divorce. I am not buying that she is actively trying to rekindle any type of romance. 15 years of living with someone doesn't cut the mustard with this. I still think she isn't being honest with you. She probably doesn't want to hurt you with the truth that you are a great roomate and a lousy lover...
> 
> And no, you cannot take that one back. It just is. Start working on yourself and your own physical, spiritual being. Enough with this depression crap. Get some couselling and start a new path for a happier you. THAT will work wonders for the libido dept.


Ummmm...

Right.


----------



## jlg07

So @confusedmoi, while your wife said nothing is going on, WHAT do you attribute the changes in her? 
Did SHE say anything about that? If you didn't find out specifically about the profiles and have her SHOW that to you in the "game", then you still don't have all the answers -- she just deflected you away from answers you should have.


I still think you should get a few VARs and place them around and in car just for your own peace of mind. IF anything was going on, she will be on guard now (and may even suspend an affair for a while for you to calm down and stop nosing around).

I am NOT saying she is cheating, but for your own sake, you need to really do everything you can to verify it.
Of course now that you've had the conversation, you may not see anything if she's put everything on hold.


----------



## syhoybenden

confusedmoi said:


> If she has a second phone, though, I don't know where she's hiding it. I couldn't find anything in her car, unless there's a secret compartment I don't know about.
> 
> Any ideas where a second phone might be hidden?


Why don't you call that phone? Buy a cheap burner so she can't see who's calling and call it. Listen.

Call it when you're beside her car. Call it when she's asleep and you are in your house. Listen.

If it's real then it shouldn't take long.


----------



## Tobyboy

Few things you can try. 
1. Grab her phone again, go to contacts and enter the phone number. See what name comes up, if any. 
2. Check her voice messages while your at it also. 
3. Check phone records again, has she called/texted that new number. 

If she does have another phone, it might not be in her possession.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

syhoybenden said:


> Why don't you call that phone? *Buy a cheap burner* so she can't see who's calling and call it. Listen.
> 
> Call it when you're beside her car. Call it when she's asleep and you are in your house. Listen.
> 
> If it's real then it shouldn't take long.


 Or you can just download a spoof number app for your phone, and call from it.


----------



## turnera

confusedmoi said:


> Just to add, too - I think I'm a good husband: I cook, clean, repair, work hard, and I compliment her and supported her through her schooling.
> 
> But a dead bed situation is a prime instigator for someone to have an affair, right?


But you are also a Nice Guy - and THAT is the kiss of death to a marriage and a pathway into a cheating wife.

Note I am NOT blaming her cheating on you. That's on her. But if you ever have ANY hope of her giving up her affair partner and choosing you, you will have to immediately make real changes to your outlook. Get this book and read it today.

Now, I know you pride yourself on your calmness, level-headedness, logic. But I'm providing 20 years of experience providing advice to men just like you that she no longer sees you as a sexual partner, and that is partially BECAUSE of your aforementioned qualities. 

You love logic, so consider this: People are guided by deep-seated psychological and sociological needs and drives. One of women's deep drives is to have a strong man 'protecting' her who takes what he wants. It goes back to caveman days and it's innate in our beings. Men seek out beauty in a woman as a first item; women seek out strength in a man as a first item. And most don't even realize they're doing it. But read through the threads here and you will see ONE similarity with 99% of all men who come here, who describe their wives: they mention they are beautiful. That's because it is SUCH a strong need in men that they can't even look at a woman without using that as a scale. The same way, women need protection (strength): it may come in several forms (financial protection, physical strength, a take-charge husband who leads the family), but it's almost always there.

So read the book. Think about ways in which you have taken the back place, let her lead, given up your desires/needs.

On top of that, depression is a real thing. There's no shame in having depression. BUT, in a woman's mind, who wants a strong man, a man who can't overcome something that's affecting the marriage becomes less attractive.

All this to say that if you want to get your marriage back, once you kill the affair, you are going to need to take a long look in the mirror and see if you're willing to do some changing, for her to want to stay.


----------



## skerzoid

1. *Strength, Courage, Decisiveness.*

2. *Start the "180"*.

3. *Visit with a lawyer* to find out your rights.

4. *No pick-me dance. * Very unattractive to a woman. No begging, and pleading.

5. *You have to be willing to lose your marriage to save it.*


----------



## happiness27

Don't people just TALK to each other? I'm pretty confrontational. Got a question for my spouse? Ask...straight up.


----------



## turnera

Agreed, but cheating almost always occurs once the couple has LOST open communication, each to their own corners and such.


----------



## BluesPower

happiness27 said:


> Don't people just TALK to each other? I'm pretty confrontational. Got a question for my spouse? Ask...straight up.


The thing is, you are not the kind of woman that his wife is. 

And I don't think that he is the kind of man your husband is, but who knows.


----------



## happiness27

turnera said:


> Agreed, but cheating almost always occurs once the couple has LOST open communication, each to their own corners and such.


I agree. I read the OP and it sounded like this "distance/pursue" situation that could be resolved by saying "Hey, babe, what's up? Who are you texting?" EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. Both people's devices need to be completely open to the other person - no secrets. 

But...but...but...all we want. Either person sneaking around instead of communicating is a broken relationship that is only fixed by open and honest communication. 

If that doesn't happen or is never going to happen even after MC is suggested and/or tried, that's a get-out marriage. Who wants to have to turn into a sleuth to know their partner?


----------



## turnera

I agree, I'm just saying that once you think your spouse is cheating, just going to them and saying 'hey babe, are you cheating' is likely to be met with divorce papers.


----------



## BluesPower

turnera said:


> I agree, I'm just saying that once you think your spouse is cheating, just going to them and saying 'hey babe, are you cheating' is likely to be met with divorce papers.


Gee T, I see that differently. I think that you should hand them D papers and say, I think you are cheating, all the signs point to it. See you later...

So here you go...


----------



## turnera

BluesPower said:


> Gee T, I see that differently. I think that you should hand them D papers and say, I think you are cheating, all the signs point to it. See you later...
> 
> So here you go...


Absolutely!

But show me an OP who is willing to do that, in this instance.

Baby steps...


----------



## happiness27

People do get through cheating, although I don't know the stats on how well things go after that. But, just beating around the bush doesn't seem very effective.


----------



## confusedmoi

So Blues Power's record might still be intact. 

Big chats, talked about open communication, I explained I was uncomfortable about some of her Facebook habits, we worked on things, dead bed situation was ended, etc. 

You all know the story.

But still, shiftiness. Still, gaps in her explanations of things. Still, over-elaborate explanations for other things. 

Texting and phone bill shows nothing unusual. However, a good deal of phone guarding (shutting phone off when I enter the room). In fact, I played a game one night. I kept walking in and out of the room (I could see her in the wall mirror) - every time I left, phone picked up. Every time I entered, phone put down. Yesterday, walked up behind her as she sat on the couch texting - instant phone closure. The other day, sitting in bed together, she's texting someone, I sit up - which would give me a better view - she scrolls that text down so fast, and shuts phone off. 

So nothing is resolved. But I'm saying nothing. Just observing and gathering info. 

Got VAR in car and house. Nothing incriminating, save for a 25 minute journey to work that took 40 minutes, including a stop off in Dunkin Donuts that is only 5 minutes away from the house, but occurs 20 minutes into the audio. 

Today, had a chance to get into the phone. Couldn't find any obvious red flags, messaging wise, but I was in a time constraint. 

However, looked at Maps. Two addresses don't make sense. One is a place she visited (a school - she has no reason to be anywhere near it, but it IS across the road from 2 nice restaurants/bar), and one was saved as a favorite - a condo across town. That was a recent addition too. 

So with all of this, trust has been almost entirely eroded. But I want a bit more to go with, so I have evidence in reserve. 

Tracker in the car this week, as she has two classes to go to this week that aren't on the organizing body's calendar. 

If nothing else, the sins of omission are enough to end this marriage, I think.


----------



## TDSC60

The visits to a condo and bars without you are a huge red flag. As is the continued phone secrecy.


----------



## Marc878

Keep digging you're doing all the right things. There are aps that don't show on a phone bill and if she's deleting after looking at her phone won't help you much. The GPS is a must and VAR.

It's good you aren't in denial.

Vigilance. Keep your mouth closed, eyes and ears open. You'll find what you need.


----------



## Marc878

confusedmoi said:


> So Blues Power's record might still be intact.
> 
> Big chats, talked about open communication, I explained I was uncomfortable about some of her Facebook habits, we worked on things, dead bed situation was ended, etc.
> 
> You all know the story.
> 
> But still, shiftiness. Still, gaps in her explanations of things. Still, over-elaborate explanations for other things.
> 
> Texting and phone bill shows nothing unusual. However, a good deal of phone guarding (shutting phone off when I enter the room). In fact, I played a game one night. I kept walking in and out of the room (I could see her in the wall mirror) - every time I left, phone picked up. Every time I entered, phone put down. Yesterday, walked up behind her as she sat on the couch texting - instant phone closure. The other day, sitting in bed together, she's texting someone, I sit up - which would give me a better view - she scrolls that text down so fast, and shuts phone off.
> 
> So nothing is resolved. But I'm saying nothing. Just observing and gathering info.
> 
> Got VAR in car and house. Nothing incriminating, save for a 25 minute journey to work that took 40 minutes, including a stop off in Dunkin Donuts that is only 5 minutes away from the house, but occurs 20 minutes into the audio.
> 
> Today, had a chance to get into the phone. Couldn't find any obvious red flags, messaging wise, but I was in a time constraint.
> 
> However, looked at Maps. Two addresses don't make sense. One is a place she visited (a school - she has no reason to be anywhere near it, but it IS across the road from 2 nice restaurants/bar), and one was saved as a favorite - *a condo across town. That was a recent addition too. *
> 
> So with all of this, trust has been almost entirely eroded. But I want a bit more to go with, so I have evidence in reserve.
> 
> Tracker in the car this week, as she has two classes to go to this week that aren't on the organizing body's calendar.
> 
> If nothing else, the sins of omission are enough to end this marriage, I think.


can you find out who the owner is? If you have $'s for a PI it would be your best bet. They are expensive


----------



## Tatsuhiko

There was a guy in a forum who mounted a high-res hidden camera in the light fixture above the couch where his wife usually used her phone. He was able to see her enter her passcode, then used the code to access her phone while she was asleep. Maybe it's not so useful if she's deleting everything immediately, but with the right camera and placement, you might be able to even see the messages as she's typing them.


----------



## confusedmoi

Tatsuhiko said:


> There was a guy in a forum who mounted a high-res hidden camera in the light fixture above the couch where his wife usually used her phone. He was able to see her enter her passcode, then used the code to access her phone while she was asleep. Maybe it's not so useful if she's deleting everything immediately, but with the right camera and placement, you might be able to even see the messages as she's typing them.


Unfortunately not possible. 

Also forgot to add - in all my snooping, found a house key copy (the cheap Home Depot kind) that doesn't match a single key we own or hold for someone else, in one of her purses - her nice "going out" purse. 

Also, 3 years ago she "liked" a page and post of a real estate agent. A year after that, we were using his brother to find a new place to live. Curiouser and Curiouser.


----------



## BluesPower

confusedmoi said:


> Unfortunately not possible.
> 
> Also forgot to add - in all my snooping, found a house key copy (the cheap Home Depot kind) that doesn't match a single key we own or hold for someone else, in one of her purses - her nice "going out" purse.
> 
> Also, 3 years ago she "liked" a page and post of a real estate agent. A year after that, we were using his brother to find a new place to live. Curiouser and Curiouser.


No it is not curious... That is the key to her boyfriends house as you already suspected. 

You keep digging and you will figure it all out. A PI would really be your quickest option with clear proof.

When you have the proof, keep your **** together. You are going to find that she is cheating and you cannot allow yourself to freak out. 

You are just going to confirm what we already know... 

Stay the course...


----------



## confusedmoi

BluesPower said:


> confusedmoi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately not possible.
> 
> Also forgot to add - in all my snooping, found a house key copy (the cheap Home Depot kind) that doesn't match a single key we own or hold for someone else, in one of her purses - her nice "going out" purse.
> 
> Also, 3 years ago she "liked" a page and post of a real estate agent. A year after that, we were using his brother to find a new place to live. Curiouser and Curiouser.
> 
> 
> 
> No it is not curious... That is the key to her boyfriends house as you already suspected.
> 
> You keep digging and you will figure it all out. A PI would really be your quickest option with clear proof.
> 
> When you have the proof, keep your **** together. You are going to find that she is cheating and you cannot allow yourself to freak out.
> 
> You are just going to confirm what we already know...
> 
> Stay the course...
Click to expand...


Also, I took the key. If it's a current affair, she'll miss it. If it's innocent, she'll talk about it. If it's his, she'll look for it but not mention it. Things are shaping up. I'm out on a job, she's been feeling "blah" all day, var set up in the two rooms she talks on the phone in.


----------



## Marc878

You need a var in her car and a GPS tracker if you haven't.

Do you know the condo number? If so try the key on it.

Sorry you're going through this but there isn't an easier way.


----------



## Adelais

She is not going to ask you where the key is if it is to her BF house. She will think she lost it and get another. Maybe she will be stupid enough to hide it in the same place, if you are lucky.


----------



## Marc878

Araucaria said:


> She is not going to ask you where the key is if it is to her BF house. She will think she lost it and get another. Maybe she will be stupid enough to hide it in the same place, if you are lucky.


Or she'll be tipped off. Go even deeper underground which is what you don't need at this time.

If it is an affair and it sure smells like it she's smart/good at it.


----------



## confusedmoi

This morning:

On cell texting as I woke up. She saw me raise my head - exited out quick, stuck on her game (different app). 

I checked later, on recent apps (she hadn't touched phone since then), and couldn't find a chat app used. 

Any ideas?

I think next time I see her do that, I'll just snatch the phone. What does anyone think of that?


----------



## TDSC60

confusedmoi said:


> This morning:
> 
> On cell texting as I woke up. She saw me raise my head - exited out quick, stuck on her game (different app).
> 
> I checked later, on recent apps (she hadn't touched phone since then), and couldn't find a chat app used.
> 
> Any ideas?
> 
> I think next time I see her do that, I'll just snatch the phone. What does anyone think of that?


What type of phone?

Might not be an app. Could be a secret email account. Or even a messaging service accessed from a game.


----------



## confusedmoi

TDSC60 said:


> What type of phone?
> 
> Might not be an app. Could be a secret email account. Or even a messaging service accessed from a game.


iphone 6


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

OP, have you actually looked at all her chats on the game app?


----------



## confusedmoi

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> OP, have you actually looked at all her chats on the game app?


The game app doesn't have a chat function, I checked it out

I just had a good look there for 5 minutes, and I can't find a single chat from early this morning on anything. 

Any iphone users have any thoughts? It's not whatsapp, instagram, imessage, and it doesn't appear to be FB or linkedin. 

I'm at a loss to explain the disappearance of those morning texts. 

I still have those map locations as being anomalies though. 

The class she is meant to go to, tomorrow and Wednesday, checks out at least. But she might be going in her (female) friend's car, who will come here to collect her (or my wife will drive). If she goes in the friend's car, then no chance of VAR and gps. If she goes in her own, VAR may just pay for itself.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

She can be saving drafts on a shared email account.


----------



## confusedmoi

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> She can be saving drafts on a shared email account.


No the chat stream looked like a standard text message thread - bubbled text one after the other. 

I didn't think to look for google hangout though.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Could be Snapchat... those messages disappear after they are read.


----------



## Tobyboy

It might not be an app. She could be on logging in to a website directly using private mode on safari.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

Can you get a dump of all her installed apps? Plus ones she has installed in past and has since uninstalled?


----------



## BluesPower

Honestly, you need to just hire a PI. 

You will get your answers quicker, more clear and you won't have to wonder. 

You can file for divorce with a clear conscious...


----------



## turnera

Hire a PI.


----------



## Adelais

confusedmoi said:


> This morning:
> 
> On cell texting as I woke up. She saw me raise my head - exited out quick, stuck on her game (different app).
> 
> I checked later, on recent apps (she hadn't touched phone since then), and couldn't find a chat app used.
> 
> Any ideas?
> 
> I think next time I see her do that, I'll just snatch the phone. What does anyone think of that?


Don't snatch it. She'll be on alert and take it deeper underground if she is in an affair. It will also make you look like an aggressive crazy person, and you bet she will use that against you.

Could she be self conscious about being on her phone all the time? Have you ever complained about the sheer amount of time she spends on her phone? What if she isn't in an affair, and is just self conscious about being on the phone, since she knows you don't like it. Or what if she thinks she has a problem with her phone usage, and is embarrassed, so she tries to hide it?

Just guessing here.


----------



## confusedmoi

Araucaria said:


> Don't snatch it. She'll be on alert and take it deeper underground if she is in an affair. It will also make you look like an aggressive crazy person, and you bet she will use that against you.
> 
> Could she be self conscious about being on her phone all the time? Have you ever complained about the sheer amount of time she spends on her phone? What if she isn't in an affair, and is just self conscious about being on the phone, since she knows you don't like it. Or what if she thinks she has a problem with her phone usage, and is embarrassed, so she tries to hide it?
> 
> Just guessing here.


Nope, nope, nope, and nope. 

Other times, she's quite happy to be on her phone and not caring about me seeing who or what she's texting. 

I think I might have figured out that it's Linkedin, and that I didn't see any guilty messages because Linkedin has an archive feature that I didn't know about. If I get the chance, I'll have another look and find archived messages.


----------



## Adelais

confusedmoi said:


> Nope, nope, nope, and nope.
> 
> Other times, she's quite happy to be on her phone and not caring about me seeing who or what she's texting.
> 
> I think I might have figured out that it's Linkedin, and that I didn't see any guilty messages because Linkedin has an archive feature that I didn't know about. If I get the chance, I'll have another look and find archived messages.


Sounds like a good plan. So sorry you are having act like a PI just to see what she is up to.


----------



## confusedmoi

Araucaria said:


> Sounds like a good plan. So sorry you are having act like a PI just to see what she is up to.


Well my friend who I confided in (he went through much the same thing a few years ago, although his WW was having an affair with another woman), reckons any marriage is doomed once one party has to act the detective. 

It's tough, though, because she's doing the love bombing thing, and it's hard not to remember how we started out. 

But broken is broken, and if she's tipping one side upwards because she feels guilty about what she's doing on the other side, then it's not really real, is it?


----------



## turnera

We've had a few success stories here, but not many. But all of them required the BS to find the evidence and then immediately give the cheater ONE CHANCE to fess up or lose everything. Anything less than immediate requirement to end all and tell all results in torture for the BS and false recoveries.


----------



## Beach123

Why not place a nest camera somewhere in the house?

Get a position for the camera that she doesn't notice it - but also a position that will capture what her phone code is.

Then you also have likely is the same passcode for her computer.

Check her history and all apps.

My best guess is that she's signed up to a dating site - and communicating with potential dates... could be a site for married people.

Either way she's up to no good.

Did you find out anything about the key she has?

Can you borrow a friend's car and follow her to see where she's actually going?


----------



## confusedmoi

Beach123 said:


> Why not place a nest camera somewhere in the house?
> 
> Get a position for the camera that she doesn't notice it - but also a position that will capture what her phone code is.
> 
> Then you also have likely is the same passcode for her computer.
> 
> Check her history and all apps.
> 
> My best guess is that she's signed up to a dating site - and communicating with potential dates... could be a site for married people.
> 
> Either way she's up to no good.
> 
> Did you find out anything about the key she has?
> 
> Can you borrow a friend's car and follow her to see where she's actually going?



I have her phone passcode and computer password. They are showing nothing obvious. I don't know how to find hidden apps in an iphone

Camera won't work. She texts in bed. There's nothing but sheer blank wall behind us, so any camera put there would be super obvious, unfortunately


----------



## indiana_pilot

iMessage on the iPhone look like texting and mixes in with standard text messages.. it will not show up on your bill.. if you know her iCloud password you can log into an iPad or Mac and see her iMessages in real time.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Beach123

*Re: Very, very confused...l*

I just don't believe her. She's got some things going on and is covering up.

You can't afford NOT to get a PI!!!

You got nearly nothing in a month...she's good at hiding all of what she's doing.

Who's key did she have? How did she explain that oddity?


----------



## confusedmoi

*Re: Very, very confused...l*



Beach123 said:


> I just don't believe her. She's got some things going on and is covering up.
> 
> You can't afford NOT to get a PI!!!
> 
> You got nearly nothing in a month...she's good at hiding all of what she's doing.
> 
> Who's key did she have? How did she explain that oddity?


I haven't asked about the key. I haven't asked about anything yet. I'm saving it all up so that it's an onslaught of oddities and anomalies that she trips herself over with.


----------



## re16

*Re: Very, very confused...l*



confusedmoi said:


> I haven't asked about the key. I haven't asked about anything yet. I'm saving it all up so that it's an onslaught of oddities and anomalies that she trips herself over with.


This is a smart move. Stay quite about it. You false confronted once before without evidence and now she thinks you were convinced nothing is going on.

Continue to be vigilant. She probably is trying harder to cover her tracks at this point, but if you are watching closely she will slip eventually.

Have you recovered deleted texts? Use the free version of dr. fone. It takes some time to run though, so plan for that. (like hours).

Does she have an Ipad? sometimes those get assigned phone numbers with the carrier for data.

Key could be a spare for a friends / relatives house....but seems odd to keep it in that purse.

Enable the find friends app while you are on her phone and share her location with you. You'll be able to see where the phone is at any time.

Check the list of bluetooth devices in her car to see if another phone is listed.


----------



## TDSC60

confusedmoi said:


> Well my friend who I confided in (he went through much the same thing a few years ago, although his WW was having an affair with another woman), reckons any marriage is doomed once one party has to act the detective.
> 
> It's tough, though, because she's doing the love bombing thing, and it's hard not to remember how we started out.
> 
> But broken is broken, and if she's tipping one side upwards because she feels guilty about what she's doing on the other side, then it's not really real, is it?


I had a friend who's wife had an affair for 2 years.

She kept the house spotless, she made sure to cater to him at home, she was a tiger in the bedroom.

She did all this (her admission once the affair ended) so he would not have reason to suspect what she was doing. What she was doing was going on shopping trips of 1-2 hours 2 or 3 times a week to meet her lover in a hotel room that he would rent. He did not catch her. Her lover's wife did. Then OM cut her off. She finally confessed to my friend in an effort to save the marriage before the OMs wife contacted her husband. But he was not fool enough to let her get away with that.

There is an app called *Life360* that will automatically track locations. It is free. You download and install it on your phone and set it up. It only take a few minutes to download and install.

The catch is that you have to then install it on her phone and send her a text (from your app to the app on her phone). The message contains a code that must be entered from her phone. If you can manage that, it will track her movements and keep a record of trips she takes.


----------



## Beach123

Let's not forget that she may have a second phone...


----------



## wmn1

TDSC60 said:


> I had a friend who's wife had an affair for 2 years.
> 
> She kept the house spotless, she made sure to cater to him at home, she was a tiger in the bedroom.
> 
> She did all this (her admission once the affair ended) so he would not have reason to suspect what she was doing. What she was doing was going on shopping trips of 1-2 hours 2 or 3 times a week to meet her lover in a hotel room that he would rent. He did not catch her. Her lover's wife did. Then OM cut her off. She finally confessed to my friend in an effort to save the marriage before the OMs wife contacted her husband. But he was not fool enough to let her get away with that.
> 
> There is an app called *Life360* that will automatically track locations. It is free. You download and install it on your phone and set it up. It only take a few minutes to download and install.
> 
> The catch is that you have to then install it on her phone and send her a text (from your app to the app on her phone). The message contains a code that must be entered from her phone. If you can manage that, it will track her movements and keep a record of trips she takes.


sound advice here. Do it !!


----------



## confusedmoi

*Re: Very, very confused...l*



re16 said:


> This is a smart move. Stay quite about it. You false confronted once before without evidence and now she thinks you were convinced nothing is going on.
> 
> Continue to be vigilant. She probably is trying harder to cover her tracks at this point, but if you are watching closely she will slip eventually.
> 
> Have you recovered deleted texts? Use the free version of dr. fone. It takes some time to run though, so plan for that. (like hours).
> 
> Does she have an Ipad? sometimes those get assigned phone numbers with the carrier for data.
> 
> Key could be a spare for a friends / relatives house....but seems odd to keep it in that purse.
> 
> Enable the find friends app while you are on her phone and share her location with you. You'll be able to see where the phone is at any time.
> 
> *Check the list of bluetooth devices in her car to see if another phone is listed*.


How do I do that?


----------



## mickybill

Does she use gmail?
Gmail saves pretty much everything unless you delete, delete, delete from 3 different places.
Even if you think it's gone, it isn't.


----------



## syhoybenden

*Re: Very, very confused...l*



confusedmoi said:


> How do I do that?



Take the car in to the dealership.

Tell her you're getting her leaking tire fixed.

Get them to show you how to access the Bluetooth thingy.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

*Re: Very, very confused...l*



syhoybenden said:


> Take the car in to the dealership.
> 
> Tell her you're getting her leaking tire fixed.
> 
> Get them to show you how to access the Bluetooth thingy.


Work smart, not hard.

Simply Google the model or brand name radio in her car to get the info. Just search for "how to access the Blue Tooth menu on Acme Radio in a 2016 Ford Escape" (or whatever her car and radio are) and you'll find an answer either via the user manual in PDF form or in other inquiries others have made. It gets no easier than that.


----------



## TDSC60

The Bluetooth phone connection in a car only works if she sets up the phone to automatically connect to Bluetooth when the phone is in the car.

I would check it out. 

But keep in mind that just because you might not find another phone listed, does not mean she does not have one. It only means that a possible second phone was not set up to sync with the car.

If a VAR in her car only picks up one side (her voice) of a conversation, then I would say that she is not using the Bluetooth.


----------



## re16

*Re: Very, very confused...l*



confusedmoi said:


> How do I do that?


Depends on what car you have, but when you go to the pair devices area (like you are going to sync a new phone), usually you can see the phones that are synced.


----------



## re16

If her computer is logged into gmail, type www.google.com/history into the browser to see her activity.

If history isn't set to be remembered, activate that in the gmail settings. I think it defaults to on so she would have to turn it off.

Any sites visited while logged into gmail are recorded there.

Locations are also tracked there, so if she is logging in (like her from her phone) different places, it would track that.


----------



## confusedmoi

TDSC60 said:


> The Bluetooth phone connection in a car only works if she sets up the phone to automatically connect to Bluetooth when the phone is in the car.
> 
> I would check it out.
> 
> But keep in mind that just because you might not find another phone listed, does not mean she does not have one. It only means that a possible second phone was not set up to sync with the car.
> 
> If a VAR in her car only picks up one side (her voice) of a conversation, then I would say that she is not using the Bluetooth.


VAR has been unsuccessful thus far. 

She caught me trying to unlock her phone this morning. I guess there's a showdown a-coming.


----------



## re16

confusedmoi said:


> She caught me trying to unlock her phone this morning. I guess there's a showdown a-coming.


What was her reaction and what did you say?


----------



## confusedmoi

re16 said:


> What was her reaction and what did you say?


It was 7am, so it wasn't as eloquent as I'd have liked, lol. She asked what I was doing, I said "nothing". She got a bit upset. Then she said "do you want to look at my phone", and I said it was okay. She had a course exam to go to, I didn't want to push it. But I have my questions ready for later. 

Also, I stuck a VAR in her car again, but not with VAR activated. So chances are her friend will see she was upset, they will talk, and VAR will reveal something or nothing when I get it back.


----------



## confusedmoi

Had a look at her iphotos. Nothing incriminating at all. But there was a picture from earlier in the year which was her yearbook photo with her ex before me. Around that time she started to talk about him again. 

Seems he lives near the town that she called a restaurant late last year. A restaurant I never even knew existed


----------



## faithfulman

confusedmoi said:


> *Had a look at her iphotos. Nothing incriminating at all. But there was a picture from earlier in the year which was her yearbook photo with her ex before me. Around that time she started to talk about him again. *
> 
> Seems he lives near the town that she called a restaurant late last year. A restaurant I never even knew existed


Dude, you have to connect the phone to a computer and access it using phone undelete software or you're wasting your time! 

Get Fonelab (Stay away from Dr. Fone unless you like crashing after 30+ minutes of data extraction.) and recover any deleted texts photos or messages from any number of cheater apps. 

You can also recover deleted notes, browser history and more.

You can't do this halfway.


----------



## Marc878

Did you put a GPS on her car? Quick, easy realitvely cheap. 

There is either nothing going on or she's very smart about it.

I suspect the latter. Which means without evidence you'll get nothing but denial.

Go full out so you don't linger in this


----------



## Rubix Cubed

You should have just said YES when she asked if you wanted to see her phone. If there was anything it's gone now.


----------



## Herschel

Back that shiz up and scan through it with any software you can find. That way you can do it when she isn’t in the know. 

Or just leave her, you may die from the stress before.


----------



## TDSC60

confusedmoi said:


> Had a look at her iphotos. Nothing incriminating at all. But there was a picture from earlier in the year which was her yearbook photo with her ex before me. Around that time she started to talk about him again.
> 
> Seems he lives near the town that she called a restaurant late last year. A restaurant I never even knew existed


Nothing good ever comes from a wife reconnecting with an Ex. Ever.

Interest in a restaurant near his residence is a huge red flag. Setting up a meeting with him?


----------



## Tasorundo

So it's been about a week, anything new?


----------

