# Could this really be happening?



## slowalker (Aug 18, 2020)

2 weeks ago I thought I was in a good marriage. Over 20 years we have had a lot of problems but I don't remember ever thinking divorce was a option for either of us. When my wife left for a doctor's appointment this morning I packed my bags and ran. Could this all be a dream?

Edit. Sorry about the text you are about to read. I wrote this with way to much information swirling in my head. I wrote this partially for your feedback but mostly to get the events of the past years on paper in order to help me mentally departmentalize what is going on. 

In regards to the comments I have received so far. Thank you. You have helped me see more clearly what parts of my story are irrelevant and what I should be focusing on more. 

I will be going to therapy. I definitely am aware i need it. One thing I would like to learn is why i am unable to get people to believe me when I say that I do not care (currently) about my wife's past. I don't think about my past. I don't care about my past anymore than acknowledging it has made me who I am. My current relationship has had me stuck in my wife's past for way to long. A normal conversation between us would be....

(W) I know you always say you don't care about my past, but....

(Me) listen nothing is relevant until I can believe you. I admit I brought your past up previously. That has started trust issues between us. We need to clear up those issues before we can move forward with anything else. 

(W) makes sense

(M) your past does not bother me

(w) well it bothers me 

(m) If you need help coming to grips with your past, get it. I will be happy to support you anyway i can,, but i do not have a personal need to know anything for my benefit about before we met. 

(W) ok

(M) question regarding being truthful last week

(W) answers with stories about her past. 

And the cycle continues. Maybe my problem is not as much her truthfulness but my ability to make her trust my intentions? The following rant is incoherent at best. Thank you to anyone with the patience to get through it. 

I will try to keep this as brief as possible, while adding enough details. My head is swimming right now. I was 23 when I met my wife 2 weeks before her 21st birthday. I was really enjoying life off campus as a single guy and she was having so much fun she had forgotten to go to class in a year. We both grew up in the area and had some mutual friends, but never met before. I can't say it was love at first sight but it was certainly fun at first sight. We were perfect for each other. We were crazy and craziness followed us everywhere.

I don't think either of us planned it but around 6 months into our relationship, things changed. I started focusing harder at the gym and really watched my diet, eliminating most alcohol. She started focusing on school and just kinda got out of the party scene. We would spend most nights at my apartment with a couple friends dropping by or just the two of us relaxing. During this time I think we both realized we had someone special. I think we openly talked about our past at this point, recognizing it as a fun time we couldn't take back, and enjoyed the intimacy of loving someone for the first time. We got married after 14 months of dating. Had 2 kids, 2 dogs, bought a house, started and sold a business, changed careers, supported each other, sex was ok or sex was bad. We certainly didn't have time to practice and keep up with the memories of our youth. Kissing stopped for good and that was ok. We would joke as we flew past each other about the pecks on the cheek we called grandma kisses. We would talk about it, we would try, a year later we were busy again. Kids grew, activities flew by. Cars broke down, waterpumps replaced.

And we did it all together. We would laugh to each other after a child's friends parents would envite us to a cookout. Sure, we liked burgers, but we already had dinner planned for Saturday and soccer in the afternoon.

Around 5 years ago my wife got very depressed. She would go long stretches without saying anything and when she would talk she said her hair was falling out. I didn't have a clue what to do. Her hair was fine. I tried to listen. I tried to reassure. I would get upset if our schedules lined up for a half hour and she would stand there pulling her hair out one at a time and staring at it. She was convinced it was our well water. We have a water system that is checked twice a year and it was fine. I would ask the technician, they said we were good. Even the salesman would look at me strange as I added more pieces to our plumbing knowing it was in vain. After awhile I told her there was nothing else I could change and she would need to somehow find help. She refused seeing a counselor but finally went to a doctor who gave her some medicine (don'tknowwhat, but i think pretty mild). She also started reading her Bible for hours a day and she started feeling better.

She was convinced the Bible was making her feel better and stopped the medication. (We are both Christians, i assume I encouraged her to read at this time, don't remember) She hadn't cut her hair in over a year and it was past due. I remember when I came home and she had gotten it made up like when we met. My wife is absolutely beautiful everyday but that day was, wow.

Some time passed and I guess I made a big mistake. The grandma kisses were bothering me. I would try leaning in for more and she would turn away. She would laugh at me, impersonate a monster, and peck me on the forehead. I didn't think much of it but it manifested in my head. One day she knew that I was down she kept pressing to hear what was wrong. I told her I wished we still kissed like we were younger. She said we never kissed passionately. I thought she was joking. She wasn't. We always kissed that way. I laughed and reminded her when we met. I said she didn't kiss her other boyfriends like that before she met me? She was embarrassed but she looked me straight in the eye and said "i kissed alot of people passionately, way to many", and started up talking about how she regretted how much she kissed this guy and what she did with that guy. All with names, details, and shame. She went on for too long, pecked me on the cheek and the conversation was over. I guess I should have left well enough alone but I was confused.

Friends of mine went to school with her and always told me she was very shy in high school. There was one year before I met her she lived in a party house and she always told me that year was a little too wild that year. We never talked about that much. I knew she moved back to her moms 1 year before I met her and that slowed her down until she started coming over to my apartment. My mind started racing, it sounded to me like she was saying 100s. I knew I wasn't her first kiss, but my reality didn't line up with what I was hearing. I left it go for awhile, but the thoughts in my head were not fun, so I decided to talk to her about it. She was so kind and gentle. She was happy to help me since I helped her during her rough patch. I started to ask her and she cut me off mid sentence, "who did I think she was, she had only ever kissed 10 people" i tried to suppress a laugh. She had innocently told me previously about more than that. She got mad and said she wasn't proud of her past but she came to terms with it and I needed to as well. Ummm ok but what about this guy you told me about, and my friend you used to date his brother and so on. But the number didn't change. History did (she would tell lie after lie). I asked why in the world she would be embarrassed by only kissing 10 other people and she cried. Ok, I guess. I felt bad she was crying and she was so adamant Weird thing looking back is why I started to believe her. I had no reason to doubt something so trivial and besides I was thinking her saying alot was 100s so .... cool. That night she was extremely confident in her sensuality. We kissed like our youth. I felt great. She was amazing. Almost a little too good. I felt a little off balanced. But I held my wife as we went to sleep, she held my hand, and in the morning we got ready to go to the gym with a spring in our steps. Half way there she said she had to tell me something. "Yesterday, when you were working outside I took some time to think about it and i wasnt fair to you. It was 17." Ummmm, what. Ok, well that was 3 hours before we had sex and you didn't think it was proper to say something.

And honestly even that number seems a little low. She looked at me with disgust and said I kept attacking her for her past and it shouldn't matter anyway. But if I needed she could write them all down for me because she really wanted me to not have to worry. Of course I didn't need her to do that. I felt shame that she would know it was a lie and not tell me before sex, but why was I being a creep. I certainly didn't want to have her think about her past and write it down. That would be pathetic. And so started the worst 9 months of my life. I would ruminate for a week or two just thinking of the math, but these were not sheep we were counting, this math sucked....or did it? Not that it matters, but why is that image now in my head. I would do the math it didn't add up and finally bring it to my wife. I would present my math, just math, and she would look at me like I was a moron. She would rewrite History again. Always adding more bits and pieces of information for me to process. She would confuse me, belittle me, degrade me, ignore me, always with a quiet smile on her face and a expression that she just wanted to help and I believed her. The more her math wouldn't add up the more I would argue with her. We would spin round and round, more details i didn't want to hear, she would evade me until I thought I had her in a corner. When she was trapped in the lies she would say she just didn't know why she couldn't tell the truth, but what did it matter if i didn't care about her past. I was concerned for her and didn't want to emotionally hurt her so I would take it and the truth would wait for another day. I would bring it up again and she would never have said that and I would be speechless. She would say i needed counseling. That i needed to come to grips with her past. I just wanted to know she would tell me the truth. I didn't need counseling for math.

And the truth was not the past, it was why did you lie about that yesterday. This went on and on and on. I would always start every day with i dont care about your past but I need to know you will tell me the truth and she would run me in circles and tell me all kinds of stuff. I never doubted that she was trying to help me. I never doubted it was hard for her.

But I was going crazy. I sat her down and explained I was in a bad spot mentally and was scared what would happen if I didn't stop. Honestly, I never contemplated suicide, but i told her i was starting to understand why some people would. Id explain that i needed to quit running numbers, she would encourage me to just keep trying and throw a couple new details in. I would take days or weeks and write journals with diagrams to explain my simple math questions and make it so easy to understand. And she couldn't understand the first line because the ink smeared. I'd ask her to read on and she would ask were I got the pen. 3 days later I would finally get her through to the problem and she would look at me and ask why I was being so mean. I felt for her. I believed her. I told her I needed to know the truth. She promised it was true, then she promised she didn't know how to. I begged her I was going nuts and she would try really hard to help me and I would end up in a corner crying for days and she would alternate between holding me and reassuring me to asking why it mattered. But i asked why she lied the first time. Her answer was it was what she wanted to be true. That was 100 percent ok with her. I felt a little more was necessary. She swore she never knew of other lies and in two weeks would calmly admit she knew the next busted truth to be false 2 weeks before. She kept building on this story, during the time she was looking for a job. We went away memorial day to celebrate her finding a new job with a awesome local business. We went out for drinks one night and the narrative continued. She left a name of a particularly disturbing guy slip. She had told me 2 very different versions of what happened and both were very criminal. She unfortunately saw him a couple times but despised him and never spoke to him after. I despised him. I was always very sensitive to my wife about this "number". I never brought him up but she would often. Once I told her he didn't count and she filled me in on some very intimate details from before this happened. Regardless, I hated him. The Facebook stalker came out in both of us and we looked him up. We both stared at his Facebook profile in shock.

vice president of her new job.....in her building. I felt horrible for her. She was shocked.

She seemed scared. We hung around town the next morning quite. She was deep in thought. Finally after a couple hours she said she didn't know what she would do if she saw him in the building. Trying to be supportive i said, if you see him keep your head held high, if he remembers you he will be shaking in his boots. You could take his job so easy.

She never missed a beat. She stopped, looked me in the eye, and said, "why, I don't know if anything even happened, besides we stayed friends for the next two years, even hanging out alone." I tried asking wtf, but she shut me down immediately and walked away calmly. The whole production was over. I did feel for her and left it go. I wrote her a letter and explained how I felt. How I felt honesty was important. The way I saw it she brought up information i didn't care about as a lie, knowing it caused me harm, and swore it to be true. I felt some explanation to why her lies were more important than me, was a reasonable request. I left it open ended and told her to take her time. She took her time. I never heard another word. At the end of the summer I went away a couple days and did some soul searching. First I concluded she would lie to me, second she would be unapologetic for it. I then asked myself if I could be in a relationship with someone like that and I decided yes. I did love her. I believed her most times and she was a awesome wife and mother. Life went on but I got bitter. I would never let a opportunity pass to mock her counting skills. Anytime the number 17 would come up I would die laughing or start singing the sound of music "I am 17 going on 18." She never acknowledged it and i admit it got harsh. Even about the guy who may have abused her, i would snicker anytime her work was mentioned. I would even ask if she ever saw her old friend from high school in front of coworkers. I should have left before I treated her this way. That is on me and always will be.

Fast forward to 2 weeks ago.

I don't even remember what started it. We had a fight about something and all of the lying 3 years ago was brought up. We ended up in a 3 day whirlwind argument for the ages. She started bringing up numbers, adding multiple partners at a time, and attacking insecurities of mine as fast as she could. I was pushing through her diversions and manipulations as she was still laying the ground work. Unfortunately, I was being mean at the same time, it was a ugly combination. It was a horrible 3 nights. I finally told her how important it was to me 3 years ago when she told me a special act was only ever done with me. I could see the wheels turning and sure enough about 5 hours later she was willing to reveal the big truth, she never wanted to hurt my feelings but she lost a bet one time and had to do that to a large group at a party. She was so sorry she wasn't truthful. I started crying and she felt so bad. She just didn't want to hurt my feelings then so she kept it from me. But now she could make it better. She could kiss me like she did at that party. I called her on the ******** and finally, She admitted to knowing she was lying. She said she needed help and couldn't tell the truth If I could have went to counseling she would have supported me and been able to go too and she would have gotten help. I stated I was messed up by it all and how did she know I wouldn't hurt myself. She mocked me, Noone was going to get hurt. She was very calloused and matter of fact. I told her she needed to leave or agree to go to therapy for HER problems and give it 100 percent effort. I was most surprised when she started making supper. Both kids were shipped off to friends houses ever since. The next two days were full of healing for us. I was so proud she wanted to stay and we talked and held each other dreaming about a future together when she was better. We had a phone appointment with a therapist scheduled and she asked me to be there with her. She was still a little out of sorts when the phone rang. We went on loud speaker and introduced everyone. When asked what we were hoping for, she became extremely confident and said she was initiating couples counseling because I couldn't come to terms with her past. I was shocked. I spent the next hour defending myself and spitting out numbers like a love sick child. She was so calm, so supportive, so ... wtf.

It was just like 3 years ago. I was enraged. She calmly told me again if I had gone to counseling 3 years ago everyone would have gotten the help they needed. We went at it again through the weekend. She would come around and almost agree why she needed help and then spin me in a circle back to where I was the problem. Never raising her voice, always in control, she had my crying, doubting, begging, pleading. She just couldn't understand. But she was always so close to understanding. She wanted to help me with my problems but she wouldn't admit she was telling lies to cause them. Never once did she consider divorce. In the moments of truth she would say how she was going to get better. How bright our future would be. Finally last night, I thought I had her spun around her own lies so much, she was about to admit she needed help and she threw me for another loop. I gave up. I told her she won. I was at the point where I needed counseling anyway and as long as she was going to be better I would say I was the one with the problem. She rolled over exhausted and said for the first time, "I don't know how much more of this I can take. I am committed to helping you through this, I am committed to saving our marriage, but this is really testing my resolve. "

This morning when she went to the doctors I left the house. I have no idea what she is up to. She is alone in the house and I believe completely harmless.

Could she just want out of the marriage but want to blame it on me?

Could she really need help with something from the past and honestly can't tell me the truth without counseling, and this is her only escape?

Could she just be this cruel and well thought out?

Was this a set up from the beginning or does she now feel trapped?

And why do I still want to help her?

Or could I have drove her to this demanding the truth on such a personal topic?


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

It took a lot of effort for you to bring us up to date. You wanted to make sure we understand. I still need some clarification, please. Are you a bit of a perfectionist? Details are really important to you? What is your work now? I'd like to hear her presentation. She is calm and you are very emotional--just about relationship details or other things too? You are saying the person you know is very different in her actions with others?

IMO: Each of you should go to individual counseling--work on selves then together MC. You mention ruminating. My head would explode if my brain worked like yours. Obsessing? Do you have issues letting go of other things? Her lying is BIG and unacceptable. In some ways, she is denigrating, manipulating, and provoking?

What would give you peace?


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## maree (Jun 13, 2011)

The past is in the past. How many people she kissed, slept with, etc shouldnt matter to this extent. If you are the jealous type who is going to hold this over her head then of course she is going to lie to you. You and her can't change how many guys she kissed or slept with before she was with you, and it shouldnt hold any weight on your relationship. I do feel she should be honest with you but to me it sounds like you are making that difficult for her because of your reactions. Becoming mad or "enraged" and packing your things and holding things against her just makes it more likely she will lie to you, over something she can't control and you can't fault her for as you weren't in the picture.

She chose you, she married you. You made an influence on her life and took her out of the party scene. You need to keep that in mind. Your relationship also has some intimacy issues which are pretty common long relationships (which I think is the real issue here). I would suggest discussing this with her instead of obsessing over her numbers. Find out how to spark the intimacy, if you need reach out to a therapist.


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## slowalker (Aug 18, 2020)

sunsetmist said:


> It took a lot of effort for you to bring us up to date. You wanted to make sure we understand. I still need some clarification, please. Are you a bit of a perfectionist? Details are really important to you? What is your work now? I'd like to hear her presentation. She is calm and you are very emotional--just about relationship details or other things too? You are saying the person you know is very different in her actions with others?
> 
> IMO: Each of you should go to individual counseling--work on selves then together MC. You mention ruminating. My head would explode if my brain worked like yours. Do you have issues letting go of other things? Her lying is BIG and unacceptable. In some ways, she is denigrating, manipulating, and provoking?
> 
> What would give you peace?


I am the opposite of perfectionist
Details don't really matter
Worked in prison for 10 years, left last February. Now retail.

Yes. She is calm. I am quick to react. Together I feel we bring great balance to each other
She is very smart and can communicate clearly to everyone else. And me until lying comes up. Then she claims she cannot tell the truth.

I have trouble letting go of anything problem until it is fixed

Lies are nonsense. Yesterday she told me the truth was true because that was what she wanted me to believe. One hour later she claimed I heard her wrong. She said she wasn't being fair.

She will often answer a question concerning today, about something 15 years ago and not tell me she switched decades. After finally figuring out what derailed the conversation she will stare innocently and never admit she did it on purpose. It can take weeks to find out one small detail. In that week she will lay ground work for other lies or ways to destroy my self confidence. I have learned to amuse myself by confiding fake things that bother me, and sure enough some guy she met at a party 20 years ago will happen to be sooo much better at it than me shortly.

As far as lyes being unacceptable, she was aware it was making me a little nutty and pushed even harder. Admited later she wanted me to go to therapy so she could get help.

What would have given me peace would be her to come to me once and say. I am sorry, I told you this. It was not true, can you forgive me. Never happened in 20 years

Now I would just be content if she doesn't make me look like a fool in counseling and then turn the kids against me in divorce because I am a creep


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## slowalker (Aug 18, 2020)

maree said:


> The past is in the past. How many people she kissed, slept with, etc shouldnt matter to this extent. If you are the jealous type who is going to hold this over her head then of course she is going to lie to you. You and her can't change how many guys she kissed or slept with before she was with you, and it shouldnt hold any weight on your relationship. I do feel she should be honest with you but to me it sounds like you are making that difficult for her because of your reactions. Becoming mad or "enraged" and packing your things and holding things against her just makes it more likely she will lie to you, over something she can't control and you can't fault her for as you weren't in the picture.
> 
> She chose you, she married you. You made an influence on her life and took her out of the party scene. You need to keep that in mind. Your relationship also has some intimacy issues which are pretty common long relationships (which I think is the real issue here). I would suggest discussing this with her instead of obsessing over her numbers. Find out how to spark the intimacy, if you need reach out to a therapist.


Thank you. I couldn't agree with you more. I never really cared before she made me think about it all the time with her dishonesty. And I really don't now. But if she makes something up last week that never happened, is that her past or something she should be accountable for now?


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Somehow I got through that wall of text and I don’t think I’ll ever want to see the word “math” used in a sentence ever again.

Whats the thing with numbers all about? I think, for most, it might make a difference if you were her first at something, or maybe 3rd or 4th. But whatever it is, isn’t there a “number” where, once exceeded, adding more to it really doesn’t change anything?

And after 20+ years, how can you expect such precise memory?

Your wife _may_ have some real issues with shame. And if she does, your exercises requiring such extraordinary detail are hurting her, not helping. If she’s got demons in her closet she needs to deal with a therapist not an over-anxious prying and insecure husband.

I understand more than a little about this, but fortunately my wife’s situation was far more clear cut and while it’s knocked both of us for a loop and exposed the reason for her depression and resentment of sex, therapy is saving our marriage. I think. It’s a process.

But I’m not at all sure of what’s going on in this story.


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## slowalker (Aug 18, 2020)

Casual Observer said:


> Somehow I got through that wall of text and I don’t think I’ll ever want to see the word “math” used in a sentence ever again.
> 
> Whats the thing with numbers all about? I think, for most, it might make a difference if you were her first at something, or maybe 3rd or 4th. But whatever it is, isn’t there a “number” where, once exceeded, adding more to it really doesn’t change anything?
> 
> ...


Thank you. The issue with numbers is she knew she could use them combined with my brain and make me go haywire. I honestly don't care about her past, but I can't let it go if there is 8 apples in a box and there should be 12. But when she links numbers to her past I sound like a Neanderthal.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Your wife is a lying deceitful manipulative *****.
However it’s you that needs therapy for to help you understand why you stayed with her. 
Stop asking questions, she’s incapable of telling the truth and in fact she probably doesn’t remember anyway. 
Get a lawyer and get yourself out of this toxic situation.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Both of you could use some counseling at least to get the issues verified by an objective party.

From your description, she sounds about as attractive as head lice.

I don't care about a past as long as it is the past but I don't tolerate lying.

I'm not obsessive about everything equating like you so the game she is playing with you would end up smacking her in the ass if it was me.

I personally don't have the patience to share my life with someone who wants to play games which it appears she is doing.

I advise you to get your legal ducks in a row and get everything worked out so you know what a separation and divorce will look like for you two.

Then you can see if anything is worth salvaging and if she wants to still contribute to the marriage or she is more committed to playing games.


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## EveningThoughts (Jul 12, 2018)

She offered to write them down.
You refused.

You seem to be obsessing over this now, as if it's in your mind day after day, hour after hour.
If that is the case, then you need help with this from professionals, I don't think your wife can help here, as it seems you are more hung up on her inability to remember her party year/s, than the actual number.

Why is it that she has to remember these numbers clearly for you? I certainly wouldn't be able to remember all my past clearly.

Do you feel her changing the numbers to try and help you, is lying? Because from here it seems that you are putting a lot of pressure on her to increase the numbers until it is high enough for you to feel that your inner feelings are justified. That the missing passion (common in a long term marriage) is reserved for you, yet she had passion in her past?

Why are you constantly mocking her and hounding her? You sound slightly abusive to be honest. Laughing hysterically if the number 17 came up, mocking her counting skills at any opportunity you had. You even admit you were harsh.

You sir, have decided you want this to a problem, so only you have the answer to this problem. You were fine (possibly) before this trigger.

What medication was your wife on for depression? She might need help in this area again.

And while we are on the subject of medication. Are you taking anything prescribed or not, that could be affecting your mood, or thinking process.
Do you still go to the gym and work out?


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## slowalker (Aug 18, 2020)

EveningThoughts said:


> She offered to write them down.
> You refused.
> 
> You seem to be obsessing over this now, as if it's in your mind day after day, hour after hour.
> ...


Thank you for your honest response. I have not been to the gym for awhile. Maybe it is time to go back.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Wow, what a messed up marriage you have.

The two of you have never had a real kiss????

But the two of you kissed others passionately.

This is a really ****ed up relationship.


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## slowalker (Aug 18, 2020)

ABHale said:


> Wow, what a messed up marriage you have.
> 
> The two of you have never had a real kiss????
> 
> ...


No. My memory has always been we did. Often. 

She is lying about this


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## nekonamida (Feb 21, 2017)

Slowwalker, call that therapist back immediately and explain that your wife blindsided you with her answer and that you'd like a chance to talk to them before any couple's counseling sessions. Tell them exactly what you told us here. Print out your first post if you have to. They need ALL of the information if they are going to help you and your wife. If you allow your wife to get the jump on the narrative, it's going to heavily impact how effective counseling will be. What if the counselor mistakenly believes your wife's lies? How then will your wife possibly get the help that she needs?

It's hard to say what your wife's motivations are. What I can say from what you have described is that your wife gets something out of lying to you and playing this game. Maybe it's a kick from the drama. Maybe it's sympathy or attention. Maybe she genuinely enjoys watching you squirm and be confused. Her weird smile certainly says that is a possibility. Whatever it is, there is SOME benefit happening otherwise she wouldn't be doing it. This could be due to a mental health issue. Your wife could just be a selfish asshole. That's for a professional to decide but what's most important is that she stops doing it for good or your marriage ends because the toll this has on you is unacceptable.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

How can someone love you and at the same time treat you the way your wife is?

I really don’t believe she loves you.


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## slowalker (Aug 18, 2020)

nekonamida said:


> Slowwalker, call that therapist back immediately and explain that your wife blindsided you with her answer and that you'd like a chance to talk to them before any couple's counseling sessions. Tell them exactly what you told us here. Print out your first post if you have to. They need ALL of the information if they are going to help you and your wife. If you allow your wife to get the jump on the narrative, it's going to heavily impact how effective counseling will be. What if the counselor mistakenly believes your wife's lies? How then will your wife possibly get the help that she needs?
> 
> It's hard to say what your wife's motivations are. What I can say from what you have described is that your wife gets something out of lying to you and playing this game. Maybe it's a kick from the drama. Maybe it's sympathy or attention. Maybe she genuinely enjoys watching you squirm and be confused. Her weird smile certainly says that is a possibility. Whatever it is, there is SOME benefit happening otherwise she wouldn't be doing it. This could be due to a mental health issue. Your wife could just be a selfish asshole. That's for a professional to decide but what's most important is that she stops doing it for good or your marriage ends because the toll this has on you is unacceptable.


Thank you so much for your response. I called the therapist yesterday and canceled my individual sessions. I told them I was worried my wife would not be able to get the help she needs if she felt she needed to control my narrative. 
I am now looking for a separate therapist for me to talk to so I can be prepared to help her if I am needed. 

The way i see it now is either 

A. She has a serious issue that she feels justifies her actions 

B. She is a bad person 

I do not want the first option to be true. But I need to be available for her if it is.


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## slowalker (Aug 18, 2020)

ABHale said:


> How can someone love you and at the same time treat you the way your wife is?
> 
> I really don’t believe she loves you.


And that is fine. I can certainly live with the fact she doesn't love me. Sure, i would be sad,, i would grieve, and I would move on. 
But what if she needs help and has not been able to get it any other way for 40 years. I do love her, and I would be willing to take this confusion to get her the help she needs.


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## slowalker (Aug 18, 2020)

EveningThoughts said:


> She offered to write them down.
> You refused.
> 
> You seem to be obsessing over this now, as if it's in your mind day after day, hour after hour.
> ...


Thanks again for your response. I will take your advice and get back in the gym. Exercise has always helped me stay focused and I need that now. 

I just looked over your comments again. If I am wrong, I cannot go back and change my mistakes now. But I can take ownership and learn from them moving forward. The name calling was and always will be inexcusable. I justified it to myself that I was only using information she presented to me as truth. It doesn't matter. I knew it was hurtful and I used it to hurt her. 
As far as her "past" or her "numbers" go. I guess I am having trouble where the boundary line is to the present. I should have never brought it up. But I did 16 years into our relationship. 

-She lied 
-She knew she lied and had sex to distract me 
-she shamed me for questioning reality
-when she finally admitted this was not true, she replaced it with a lie, did not apologize, and made me feel bad for making her feel guilty 
-she now freely admits everything she introduced into our relationship at the time was a lie and considers 3 years ago to now be her past. 
-she feels i should trust her regarding other aspects of our life together and not use behavior i learned 3 years ago to formulate my own opinions. 

I wish I never brought it up. I can not take that back. Asking about her life before me is one of the biggest past mistakes I have ever made. At some point does her behavior now not become about us and our lives together? If everything moving forward can be justified by a mistake I made 3 years ago I do not think we can ever work together to make our marriage the best it can be. But I value your opinion as it is a chance to look at this from her perspective. Thanks again


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Wow, what a trip. Brother, gently, you have issues, you have lots of issues. 

And, guess what, your wife has issues. You both need counseling about reality, about maybe so OCD, about a lot of things. 

You both need to figure out what a healthy relationship looks like, because neither of you have any idea what that is. 

Seriously man, you guys need to get some INDIVIDUAL therapy, before another second of MC.


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## slowalker (Aug 18, 2020)

BluesPower said:


> Wow, what a trip. Brother, gently, you have issues, you have lots of issues.
> 
> And, guess what, your wife has issues. You both need counseling about reality, about maybe so OCD, about a lot of things.
> 
> ...


Yes and no. I come from a very loving stable family. I absolutely know this is not good. And yes, we need help. Thank you for your honesty


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## nekonamida (Feb 21, 2017)

I'm a bit confused by what your goal is. You acknowledge that you need help but hope that this is just your wife being evil and not a genuine mental health issue? Wouldn't it be better if she was having a mental health problem that could be fixed or at least monitored and a form of normalcy maintained? You can't fix evil. You either live with it or not.

Do you want to stay married to her? Just know that you DO NOT have to stay if she is mentally ill especially if she refuses to get help for it. You are not required to martyr yourself just because she is sick because being sick does not give her carte blanche to abuse you. So does it even matter if she is sick or evil? What really matters is if she will change and if she will not, you're better off leaving the marriage.


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## slowalker (Aug 18, 2020)

Thank you. This has been my question lately as the situation has not gotten better. 

If it is a mental health issue. Something that gets worse over time, or is brought on by trauma i would certainly stay married. 

If not she is really mean, and I am out. 

I always got the feeling she may have experienced some trauma she isn't revealing or aware of. 

Yes I want to stay married. But I don't wish pain. Mental, physical, or emotional on anyone.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

slowalker said:


> Thank you. This has been my question lately as the situation has not gotten better.
> 
> If it is a mental health issue. Something that gets worse over time, or is brought on by trauma i would certainly stay married.
> 
> ...


A lot of times, with mental illness, you have to get worse, sometimes a lot worse, before you can get better. Getting to the root of trauma is, itself, traumatizing. It can be a horrifyingly-painful process. A goal of minimizing pain & distress is not compatible with fixing the problems in your marriage. It represents a decision to leave, or stay and tough it out. It does not fix anything.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

@slowalker 

I took the time to read your wall of text, and just as a note to self, it's pretty long and windy! 

However, having read it all, and seeing how confusing and mind-blowing it all is, I can understand why you felt you needed to get all that out. There are a lot of facts and a lot of twists and turns...

So here are my thoughts: 
1) On your wife's side, it would seem clear that there are two things going on simultaneously:
a) Shame--whatever the number of sexual partners may be, clearly she is ashamed of the number and has decided to hide that number at all costs and probably even hide it from herself. Thus, she likely had a traumatic event (or a couple) that got her to a point where she wanted to be "a woman of virtue" and she just convinced herself in her own mind that "these things never happened" or if she doesn't think of them they go away...and she wears the persona of "a woman of virtue."
b) Gaslighting--equally as clearly, because her own shame is so toxic, in order to continue hiding it from you and from herself, she is engaging in gaslighting (which is manipulating someone by psychological means into questioning their own sanity). She talks in circles to make you doubt yourself in an attempt to get off this topic and return to being who she has told herself she is.

2) On your side, it would seem there is one thing on which you might focus: when you were first with your wife, 20+ years ago, you knew she had some experience but was basically virtuous. Now, no matter whether she will admit it or not, you know that "the number" is enormously larger than you thought. I get it--you were thinking somewhere between 5-10 and it may be more like 100+ and if you had known that then, you may have thought of her differently and not stayed with her. Here's the GIANT question for you though: who is she NOW? Right now? Whether she admits it or not, she was promiscuous in her youth. That's just the fact. Has she been a good wife for the last 20+ years? Has she been a good mother and good partner? Has she been faithful? Because if she had a lifechanging moment (or even a trauma) 20+ years ago and has been a good and faithful wife ever since, then that means she had a life lesson and she learned it. She WAS promiscuous and now she's not. 

I get it--you are just finding all this out now, and so the shock is current FOR YOU. I also get it--you have asked her and would prefer if she just said, "I am embarrassed to say, but as a young lady I was VERY promiscuous and honestly it may have been over 100 guys" probably followed by some regretful tears. Instead, she CLINGS to a number she knows is false, and she knows that YOU know it's false, and that lack of openness hurts you. I get that. For you, it is a current shock (somewhat recently found out) and a current dishonesty. But here is my ultimate question for you: your wife slept with so many people before she met you that she can not even admit to herself how many it was. She hasn't been that person since she's been with you. Can you accept that? She is not TODAY who she was back then?

If so, then you can let it go, move on, and just continue in the happy but somewhat fake marriage you had. Yes, it didn't start with utter openness, and yes the topic of "the number" was omitted for over 20 years. But you were both happy and could just choose to go back to it. If you can not let it go, and you require honesty, then I would suggest that you lead the way. Look her straight in the eye and tell her to her face that you used to love her and that the years of omission and then gaslighting after you found out are deal-breakers for you--that she can make one of two choices: either come clean 100% with no more squeaking around and mentally manipulating you -OR- agree to divorce now. Because for you, it's not so much "what the number was" (cuz that was so long in the past) as it's the ongoing gaslighting and lack of transparency. After 20 years, it is reasonable to expect your life partner to be transparent with you. So you are stating a boundary: you are ony willing to have TRANSPARENT people as your life partner. She either becomes fully transparent or it's a deal-breaker.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

So my take is you are insecure about her past, and probably always would have been. Your wife has done some things she was not to proud of in her past some of which were pretty extreme. She has since lied to you quite a lot about it, saying she only did some acts with you when in fact they were done on a bet at a party to everyone there (that is extreme for most). She has also told your partial info, or taken it back after the fact. She would have been better off with a guy who just didn't care. Seems your dynamic really doesn't work well.

Here is the thing, you have a past too right, I am sure she is not your only one. Why do you get to have one and she doesn't.

If you want to stay with this women you are just going to have to get over the fact that she has a past even one that seems to be kind of extreme. That was years ago and she has been a good wife. This is not a case where she lied to you going in. If you were going to have a problem with it you should have dealt with it form the beginning. I get that it's hard to figure out if she is telling the truth but you got enough to get the idea. Why do you need every detail. I suspect she got sick of talking about it so she said some stuff true or untrue to hurt you, but later felt guilty about it. Point is you both have not handled this well. 

If you can't get over it divorce, you will be doing her a favor too. There are plenty of men who wouldn't care. She is never going to have a different past. That ain't going to change. Stop thinking there is going to be a magic discussion that will change it. This is who she is and who you married. 

If part of this is that you are not satisfied that you got her best, then you need to say that. (In a nice way), put in the effort to get her best. Some of which is on you.

The truth is though, some of you guys with this past thing just seems to me always seems like you don't want to compete. Well that's crap. Your a Man! Compete, that is what we do. Presumably this women love you, that gives you the inside track to blow her mind. Unless she is unattracted to you, but lets assume she is. If you are afraid you were not her best figure out how to be her best, so she forgets about the other guys.

Now here is one thing that might bother me. If you have had a pretty vanilla sex life and she acted like she wasn't that into sex, well her past shows she clearly IS VERY MUCH into the fun of sex. That would demonstrate to me that she was clearly not into me. I would have a bigger problem with that then anything else. It's fine if she wasn't into me but I personally would have a hard time staying married to someone who wasn't in to me.


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## slowalker (Aug 18, 2020)

sokillme said:


> So my take is you are insecure about her past, and probably always would have been. Your wife has done some things she was not to proud of in her past some of which were pretty extreme. She has since lied to you quite a lot about it, saying she only did some acts with you when in fact they were done on a bet at a party to everyone there (that is extreme for most). She has also told your partial info, or taken it back after the fact. She would have been better off with a guy who just didn't care. Seems your dynamic really doesn't work well.
> 
> Here is the thing, you have a past too right, I am sure she is not your only one. Why do you get to have one and she doesn't.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your time responding 

I wish I was a better communicater. I do not feel I came across clearly. 

She is making up people today, they do not exist nor have they ever

I am the best....not even close

She is saying her number is less. Who has a problem with that unless if they desire honest, open communication.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

slowalker said:


> Thank you for your time responding
> 
> I wish I was a better communicater. I do not feel I came across clearly.
> 
> ...


I got to say, when you said the thing about the hair I started to think mental illness. I think she needs to see someone. How old is she?


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## slowalker (Aug 18, 2020)

sokillme said:


> I got to say, when you said the thing about the hair I started to think mental illness. I think she needs to see someone. How old is she?


41. We have both started therapy. Our relationship is improving but it is clear it won't be easy


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

slowalker said:


> 41. We have both started therapy. Our relationship is improving but it is clear it won't be easy


I would also suggest you go see a doctor and get her hormones checked. That is a real thing with the change of life, but be very careful because it can come across as condescending. But in this case we are not talking about hot flashes. Something is really wrong here.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

My suggestion is to move out until she sifts through all of her confusion.

then sit down for a thorough conversation to see if this can be repaired.

she’s got work to do - you can’t do it for her. See what you get when she comes out the other side - it could take a year or longer if she sees the therapist every week. Hopefully she is seeing a skilled trauma therapist.

let her have the space to sift through her trauma. If you are present while she goes through it all- you may end up being her punching bag.

can you tell what the trauma was? Was she raped?


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## Camper292000 (Nov 7, 2015)

Omg. Get out. Dismissive Avoidant, covert or shy narcissist going on. Gaslighting.

Watch Richard grannon on YouTube.

Get away! And get counseling!


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

I really think you need some kind of medication. Maybe anti-anxiety.

tiur wife may have problems, but these problems should not have the effect they are having on you. If she’s talking nonsense, you should be able to see it as such and disengage the conversation.
You are clearly OBSESSING about her sexual past. That doesn’t even come up in most couple’s daily lives. It’s just unimportant. Typically that’s something discussed before marriage, not after. But either way, it should never be a regular topic. You keep needing all these numbers and such. That is crazy!

You need help. I really think you may be having some kind of episode. Get some help. Going to counseling is a smart move on your part. Good luck


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## Camper292000 (Nov 7, 2015)

Pm me of you want to talk.

Your story and where you're at right now (doubting yourself and obsessing about her her her) is very similar to my story.

Let me ask you this do you feel like you and your identity and your heart is too much invested? Have you lost yourself?

Get out and go hike a trail. Get around some good men. I know you love her and this is your whole world but she's manipulating the situation and seems to be projecting it all on you.

You can't change someone else. 

And you CANNOT keep looking at yourself and what YOU need to do. But being in this and trying and trying and doubting yourself.

Your body I'm sure is telling you there is 'danger'. Fight flight or freeze up.

State your position to her. One sentence. And walk away.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

What happens when you say to her once only, that her past is the past, as yours is, so no more talking about it, in any way.

And hold to it. Really hold to it. 

What would happen?


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