# Anyone else in an open marriage?



## His_Response (Jun 14, 2018)

It's a long story, but a few years ago my wife and I decided to allow each other to have sex with other people. We are still each other's primary focus, we still love each other very much, and in general things are going fine.

I won't go into every detail of how we got started, but the really short version is that my wife went through a long period of having no sex drive at all, and when she recovered from it her resulting drive was so strong that it caught her off guard. She nearly cheated on me, despite our own sex life being amazing again. I forgave her, and in a (perhaps) odd twist, I offered that we could consider swinging to allow her to fulfill the fantasy she had of being with another man. So we did, and aside from a few bumps in the road at the start, things have gone very well, and our marriage is still strong. Our sex life is still excellent. (And for those that doubt, I still give my wife better orgasms than any lover she has had so far... but that's only fair, considering I know her better sexually than any other man could.) We don't 'play' all the time, but every month or two we take a hotel room for some extra fun. My wife is shy about being watched, so I allow her to have her lovers alone, as she also does for me. We're allowed to play separately, but we always tell each other about it ahead of time (or if there is something truly spontaneous, immediately after...), and we have completely open communication. I have access to her phone, she has access to mine. We can read each other's chats, if we wish, which can be important if one of us feels the other might be getting 'too close' to a playmate. 

My question is, are there others here that have made this lifestyle work? I find I don't have a lot of peers to talk to about the lifestyle... my wife's preference for privacy has meant we don't attend swinger parties in our area very often, so I don't get a chance to talk to others that might be in a similar situation. (And frankly, when I am at said parties, I'm not there to talk... much...)

I'd honestly appreciate feedback from other men or women in this situation. I don't mind answering questions, either, but please keep the posts judgement-free; I don't like to waste time on people that think they know everything. 


-H.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

My wife and I have dabbled a bit over the years. We will be open to others if we are on vacation away from home and the opportunity arises. We have been though periods when it was more often and we actively sought playmates on websites etc. We got into it as a way for my wife to satisfy her bisexuality. For us it is a very small part of our relationship and it's purely fun. We've tried parties and clubs but we always seem to be on the upper end of the attractiveness scale so it gets uncomfortable having to say no thank you all night. 

We tried meeting other couples but it has never worked out, to hard for a spark between the various people involved. But we have become regular old friends with quite a few of those couples. We have met some we knew were doomed in the lifestyle, where the couples comfort level and boundaries were obviously out of sync. Or they were doing it to try and fix problems in their relationship BAD MOVE. 

Most people here think it is insane and cannot believe you could have a good relationship and take part in the "lifestyle" in any way. From our experience we have met couples who have been involved in it for decades and they have some of the best relationships we have seen. They don't have great relationships because of being open but the openness has worked because they have great relationships. 

I would say it is uncommon for any kind of open relationship to work in most cases. We've been doing it for about 10 years, we have always discussed and respected boundaries and that is what is most important. Both have absolute veto power in all situations. 

If someone asks me if I think it's a good idea, I say if you have to ask me then the answer is no.


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## His_Response (Jun 14, 2018)

happyhusband0005 said:


> My wife and I have dabbled a bit over the years. We will be open to others if we are on vacation away from home and the opportunity arises. We have been though periods when it was more often and we actively sought playmates on websites etc. We got into it as a way for my wife to satisfy her bisexuality. For us it is a very small part of our relationship and it's purely fun. We've tried parties and clubs but we always seem to be on the upper end of the attractiveness scale so it gets uncomfortable having to say no thank you all night.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


Thanks for writing, HH! 

I'm in complete agreement. Smiling at the 'no thank you's'. That's the real reason my wife doesn't enjoy the parties; she prefers privacy, but I think there was only two instances where we met someone she found attracted to. (And she's a very beautiful woman...) I'm told I'm pretty attractive myself, although I think I'm average. My wife is very straight, so she's never been with a woman; a few have tried, but been rebuffed.

I totally agree that this lifestyle probably won't work for most people. We're in our 4th year of it, and all is still going well. I certainly wouldn't suggest it to people that are trying to work through issues in their marriage. My wife and I are both lovers and our own best friends, and I think part of what makes it work is our view of it as being an adventure... like we're partners in crime.


-H


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

His_Response said:


> It's a long story, but a few years ago my wife and I decided to allow each other to have sex with other people. We are still each other's primary focus, we still love each other very much, and in general things are going fine.
> 
> I won't go into every detail of how we got started, but the really short version is that *my wife went through a long period of having no sex drive at all*, and when she recovered from it her resulting drive was so strong that it caught her off guard. She nearly cheated on me, despite our own sex life being amazing again. I forgave her, and in a (perhaps) odd twist, I offered that we could consider swinging to allow her to fulfill the fantasy she had of being with another man. So we did, and aside from a few bumps in the road at the start, things have gone very well, and our marriage is still strong. Our sex life is still excellent. (And for those that doubt, I still give my wife better orgasms than any lover she has had so far... but that's only fair, considering I know her better sexually than any other man could.) We don't 'play' all the time, but every month or two we take a hotel room for some extra fun. My wife is shy about being watched, so I allow her to have her lovers alone, as she also does for me. We're allowed to play separately, but we always tell each other about it ahead of time (or if there is something truly spontaneous, immediately after...), and we have completely open communication. I have access to her phone, she has access to mine. We can read each other's chats, if we wish, which can be important if one of us feels the other might be getting 'too close' to a playmate.
> 
> ...


She was probably having an affair during this time and didn't need sex from you. Then the affair ended and she went back to duty sex with you....better than nothing. Then she talked you in to letting her f*ck other guys. Now she gets to have all the men she wants and keep you as her safe guy and someone to share the bills with. She could care less about your needs as long as she gets to have her fun. 

Be honest with us: what is the ratio of number of partners she sleeps with compared to the number of women you sleep with? 

Open marriages are stupid and they only end in pain.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

4 years is nothing, it will likely end in tears further down the line.

When you married did you promise to be faithful?

BTW of course she will tell you that she gets better orgasms with you. Its what you want to hear.


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## His_Response (Jun 14, 2018)

bandit.45 said:


> She was probably having an affair during this time and didn't need sex from you. Then the affair ended and she went back to duty sex with you....better than nothing. Then she talked you in to letting her f*ck other guys. Now she gets to have all the men she wants and keep you as her safe guy and someone to share the bills with. She could care less about your needs as long as she gets to have her fun.
> 
> Be honest with us: what is the ratio of number of partners she sleeps with compared to the number of women you sleep with?
> 
> Open marriages are stupid and they only end in pain.


*lol* Take it elsewhere... already accounted for this kind of response in the last sentence of my original post.


-H.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

bandit.45 said:


> She was probably having an affair during this time and didn't need sex from you. Then the affair ended and she went back to duty sex with you....better than nothing. Then she talked you in to letting her f*ck other guys. Now she gets to have all the men she wants and keep you as her safe guy and someone to share the bills with. She could care less about your needs as long as she gets to have her fun.
> 
> Be honest with us: what is the ratio of number of partners she sleeps with compared to the number of women you sleep with?
> 
> Open marriages are stupid and they only end in pain.


Bandit I know you are a great fan of Shakespeare, 😜.There is a very famous line in Hamlet that goes “The lady doth protest too much methinks”
When I hear guys like this talking about their open relationships I ask myself who are they trying to convince,because from the outside looking in it is exactly as you say,she is getting all the strange she wants and hubby gets to watch.


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## His_Response (Jun 14, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> 4 years is nothing, it will likely end in tears further down the line.
> 
> When you married did you promise to be faithful?
> 
> BTW of course she will tell you that she gets better orgasms with you. Its what you want to hear.



Really, Diana? Funny, I expected a better reply from you. (In answer to your question, yes. And I've always been faithful.)

-H.


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

His_Response said:


> Really, Diana? Funny, I expected a better reply from you. (In answer to your question, yes. And I've always been faithful.)
> 
> -H.


Why do you say that as you've been here for a long time and know individual posters well?


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

The problem with just wanting positive feedback is that you'll get an unrealistic view of how it's going to work out. If you just hear from the successful couples, then you may assume that everyone is successful at it.

Have you thought at all or have any plans on how to handle it if things start to go bad? As you can probably imagine, there are lots of ways that this will end badly. How do you think you will avoid those pitfalls? And if you start to go down that path, do you think you could pull back and save your marriage?

Obviously if everything goes well, then there's nothing to worry about. But you shouldn't bet your marriage on that happening. Know what problem signs to look out for and have a plan for how deal if it's not working out.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

His_Response said:


> Really, Diana? Funny, I expected a better reply from you. (In answer to your question, yes. And I've always been faithful.)
> 
> -H.


Instead of superciliously dismissing anyone who doesn’t agree with you why don’t you answer bandits question.What is the ratio of partners between you and her.You have described her as beautiful and yourself as average so what ratio are we talking about.
Twenty to one,fifty to one?


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

His_Response said:


> *lol* Take it elsewhere... already accounted for this kind of response in the last sentence of my original post.
> 
> 
> -H.


I think it's great that you and her have such a mutually fulfilling, symbiotic relationship. But let me ask you this: what will happen when some Adonis comes along who f*cks her so good that it blows the top of her head off and she cannot get enough of him? And what if he in turn decides she's the best piece of ass he's ever had and he decides to take her from you? Are you going to step aside and let her go with him...to make her happy? Because her happiness is all it is about right? 

Dude you have your head shoved so far up your own rectum that I fear you are looking at the situation through a sh*t colored window. Your wife has totally trained you. And she WILL leave you. Sooner than you think.


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## Keke24 (Sep 2, 2016)

His_Response said:


> I'd honestly appreciate feedback from other men or women in this situation. I don't mind answering questions, either, but please keep the posts judgement-free; I don't like to waste time on people that think they know everything.
> 
> 
> -H.


Been in one open relationship OP. Didn't work well, was a disaster to be honest. We tried to prepare ourselves by getting a therapist to sit with us and discuss our intentions and guidelines for our behavior. 

We should have focused on our existing problems instead we tried to mask them with an open relationship. Neither one of us was truly ready emotionally for the pandora's box we opened. Although I am happy to have experienced it and learned a very painful lesson, the resulting emotional baggage makes it a very sour memory.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

His_Response said:


> My question is, are there others here that have made this lifestyle work? I find I don't have a lot of peers to talk to about the lifestyle... my wife's preference for privacy has meant we don't attend swinger parties in our area very often, so I don't get a chance to talk to others that might be in a similar situation. (And frankly, when I am at said parties, I'm not there to talk... much...)


This site is probably not the best to provide the info you're asking. The bulk of the members came here because of problems in their marriage. Some members have experience, but I would guess that most do not and that this lifestyle is not something they think is healthy. Perhaps you should be asking your question on a site which is focused on that lifestyle. You would probably be able to have more the discussion you want.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

His_Response said:


> It's a long story, but a few years ago my wife and I decided to allow each other to have sex with other people. We are still each other's primary focus, we still love each other very much, and in general things are going fine.
> 
> I won't go into every detail of how we got started, but the really short version is that my wife went through a long period of having no sex drive at all, and when she recovered from it her resulting drive was so strong that it caught her off guard. She nearly cheated on me, despite our own sex life being amazing again. I forgave her, and in a (perhaps) odd twist, I offered that we could consider swinging to allow her to fulfill the fantasy she had of being with another man. So we did, and aside from a few bumps in the road at the start, things have gone very well, and our marriage is still strong. Our sex life is still excellent. (And for those that doubt, I still give my wife better orgasms than any lover she has had so far... but that's only fair, considering I know her better sexually than any other man could.) We don't 'play' all the time, but every month or two we take a hotel room for some extra fun. My wife is shy about being watched, so I allow her to have her lovers alone, as she also does for me. We're allowed to play separately, but we always tell each other about it ahead of time (or if there is something truly spontaneous, immediately after...), and we have completely open communication. I have access to her phone, she has access to mine. We can read each other's chats, if we wish, which can be important if one of us feels the other might be getting 'too close' to a playmate.
> 
> ...


No offense but your wife sounds incredibly selfish, even without the sex with other people (which in combinations sounds toxic) I would worry about that. She withholds and then wants to have sex with others huh? Nice.

If it was me I would be using my play time to find a better wife, maybe one whose husband is as selfish as your wife.


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## His_Response (Jun 14, 2018)

wilson said:


> The problem with just wanting positive feedback is that you'll get an unrealistic view of how it's going to work out. If you just hear from the successful couples, then you may assume that everyone is successful at it.
> 
> Have you thought at all or have any plans on how to handle it if things start to go bad? As you can probably imagine, there are lots of ways that this will end badly. How do you think you will avoid those pitfalls? And if you start to go down that path, do you think you could pull back and save your marriage?
> 
> Obviously if everything goes well, then there's nothing to worry about. But you shouldn't bet your marriage on that happening. Know what problem signs to look out for and have a plan for how deal if it's not working out.


Fair question, and yes, we gave this a lot of thought before we started. We made some initial ground rules, and modified them a bit as we went along. As I noted, there were a few bumps at first, and I also noted that I don't think that this can work for many couples... probably less than 1%, frankly, and even then I have made no claims at all that I think we're somehow safe from failure. I only said that so far, things are going fine. My wife and I are in agreement that we would stop this extra fun if it we saw it endangering our relationship. (And we are fully aware that it's potentially like walking in a mine-field... but with honesty and openness, and great communication, we think we can handle it.) 

Aside from having access to each other's phones, etc, we also do things like always controlling the environment (e.g. no sleep-overs, no 'dates', nothing 'romantic' with those we play with), we always talk about what is going on, what plans we have, or who we might be considering having fun with. We both have veto power over the other's playmates, and playmates never come between us. (e.g. She will instantly drop any playdate she has, as will I, if either one of us feels uncomfortable. And that's not in theory... we've both done it.)

Let me be clear... nowhere am I saying that this is something people should try. My post (quite clearly) was asking if there are others here that are in the lifestyle, because I don't get many people to talk to that are successful at it.


-H.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

@NobodySpecial @Married but Happy


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## His_Response (Jun 14, 2018)

sokillme said:


> No offense but your wife sounds incredibly selfish, even without the sex (which in combinations sounds toxic) I would worry about that. She withholds and then wants to have sex with others huh? Nice.
> 
> If it was me I would be using my play time to find a better wife, maybe one whose husband is as selfish as your wife.



You're reading more into it that is there. I noted that our sex life had recovered... it wasn't a matter of withholding, it was a matter of lack of desire, which was caused by a medical issue (thyroid imbalance). Once her thyroid issue balanced, our sex life was re-ignited, and has been wonderful ever since. Unfortunate when people assume. If you want to ask a question, ask a question. *rolleyes*


-H.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

His_Response said:


> Really, Diana? Funny, I expected a better reply from you. (In answer to your question, yes. And I've always been faithful.)
> 
> -H.


No you haven't been faithful. You have had sex with others, as has she. That isn't faithfulness, its adultery even if you give permission. It will end in tears sooner or later.


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## His_Response (Jun 14, 2018)

Andy1001 said:


> Instead of superciliously dismissing anyone who doesn’t agree with you why don’t you answer bandits question.What is the ratio of partners between you and her.You have described her as beautiful and yourself as average so what ratio are we talking about.
> Twenty to one,fifty to one?


*lol* If one can ask a question without being insulting, I'd be more inclined to respond. I made myself clear in my initial post. 


-H.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

His_Response said:


> You're reading more into it that is there. I noted that our sex life had recovered... it wasn't a matter of withholding, it was a matter of lack of desire, which was caused by a medical issue (thyroid imbalance). Once her thyroid issue balanced, our sex life was re-ignited, and has been wonderful ever since. Unfortunate when people assume. If you want to ask a question, ask a question. *rolleyes*
> 
> 
> -H.


Its quite possible to have sex even if you dont 'feel' like it.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

bandit.45 said:


> Be honest with us: what is the ratio of number of partners she sleeps with compared to the number of women you sleep with?
> 
> Open marriages are stupid and they only end in pain.





Andy1001 said:


> Instead of superciliously dismissing anyone who doesn’t agree with you why don’t you answer bandits question.What is the ratio of partners between you and her.You have described her as beautiful and yourself as average so what ratio are we talking about.
> Twenty to one,fifty to one?




Are you guys against open marriage in principle; as in, it's wrong because it adulterates the sexual bond a couple has?

Or are you against it only because the wife is likely to have more partners than her husband?

[FWIW, I am personally not for open marriages in any way, shape or form]


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

There is a difference between non monogamy and polyamory, just saying.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Are you guys against open marriage in principle; as in, it's wrong because it adulterates the sexual bond a couple has?
> 
> Or are you against it only because the wife is likely to have more partners than her husband?
> 
> [FWIW, I am personally not for open marriages in any way, shape or form]


Both. And if kids are in the mix, they will find out, and that is piss poor parenting.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

CharlieParker said:


> There is a difference between non monogamy and polyamory, just saying.


Total play on words. Means nothing and you know it.


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## His_Response (Jun 14, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> No you haven't been faithful. You have had sex with others, as has she. That isn't faithfulness, its adultery even if you give permission. It will end in tears sooner or later.



Sorry, but that's your opinion. Maybe you should look of the definition of faithful. It means true, devoted, loyal, constant. Not arguing about adultery... but please don't presume to judge how devoted my wife and I are to each other. Without knowing us personally, you're simply not in a position to know that. (Not trying to be argumentative... but I will defend myself.)


-H.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> Total play on words. Means nothing and you know it.


The way friends explained it to me, they wanted to explore an other person’s body but not have a relationship of any kind outside the bedroom. But unlike OP the H & W “played” together. Made sense to me at the time, but it’s the what’s worse EA or PA thing. 

I/we are very monogamous and very happy with that, but to each his own.


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## His_Response (Jun 14, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> Its quite possible to have sex even if you dont 'feel' like it.


Yes, I agree. But is it fun? For either party? 


-H.


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## His_Response (Jun 14, 2018)

CharlieParker said:


> The way friends explained it to me, they wanted to explore an other person’s body but not have a relationship of any kind outside the bedroom. But unlike OP the H & W “played” together. Made sense to me at the time, but it’s the what’s worse EA or PA thing.
> 
> I/we are very monogamous and very happy with that, but to each his own.



Thanks for the input, CP. My wife and I are viewing this as strictly 'some extra fun'. For the record, I've actually had more partners than my wife, but the numbers are not high on either side. Neither one of us thinks it matters; it's not a competition.


-H.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Are you guys against open marriage in principle; as in, it's wrong because it adulterates the sexual bond a couple has?
> 
> Or are you against it only because the wife is likely to have more partners than her husband?
> 
> [FWIW, I am personally not for open marriages in any way, shape or form]


You can have a mutually fulfilling relationship with any woman or man you want and as long as nobody is getting hurt and everyone is over the age of consent then my attitude is go for it.
However that is not what is being discussed.The op admits his wife was refusing to have sex with him then they started “playing” and their sex life improved.If your getting nothing then anything has to be an improvement,yes? 
She is out of his league looks wise so who is really getting the benefit of this game.
The funniest thing the op said was that they tell each other ahead of time unless it is something “spontaneous” then they tell each other immediately after.So in other words she ****s whoever she wants,whenever she wants and because she may tell him after the fact then everything is ok.
He is being ridden so hard he should be wearing a saddle and the sad part is he doesn’t even realize it.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Here's the rub, Yes many couples who try an open marriage swinging whatever fail bad and hard. The ones who do it successfully do so by being on the same page and because both parties are getting something out of it. There are aspects of it that I don't understand, cuckold for example I just can't wrap my head around the appeal for a guy but there are cuckold couples in which the guy is more into it than the woman, why I have no idea, but they exist. There are couples like the OP who are fine with separate experiences and it works for them. 

There is four couples we have met and become friends with who have been at it for a long time and there are a few things we have in common that I believe have helped in our success. First is that doing it is an add on to an already excellent sex life that is the universal key to success. Second we are all high income high net worth people I think the financial stability adds to the sense of security to go out there and explore. We are very open and honest about everything. 

It is very uncommon for people to go from the initial discussion to full on sex with other partners, usually there is a period of dipping your toe in the pool here and there, stepping back talking about it, setting boundaries, trying something new stepping back, and so on. 

I get that most people can't comprehend it working and for those people it wouldn't work. I have advised many people not to go forward with opening their marriage because there is a low percentage of couples who are setup right so that it will not be harmful. 


You're not going to find a lot of male halves of successful couples who have any concern their wives will run off with another guy, usually they have good reason to think that way. In the bad outcomes the relationship usually falls apart from the inside out due to jealousy or a disconnect on boundaries and then resentment etc. There is the people running of with a playmate but usually the relationship has come unglued before hand.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

CharlieParker said:


> @NobodySpecial @Married but Happy


It has worked nicely for us for over 18 years, with no significant problems. If you're on the same page and agree how to proceed, and both are getting what you want from it, it can work well. Just like any marriage. If you're not, failure is highly likely. Just like any marriage. As in any good relationship, you change things as needed to keep it working well, and that can include knowing when to quit.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Married but Happy said:


> *It has worked nicely for us for over 18 years, with no significant problems.* If you're on the same page and agree how to proceed, and both are getting what you want from it, it can work well. Just like any marriage. If you're not, failure is highly likely. Just like any marriage. As in any good relationship, you change things as needed to keep it working well, and that can include knowing when to quit.


Until one day the police find you dead in bed, and your bank account drained, and the wife gone.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

bandit.45 said:


> Both. And if kids are in the mix, they will find out, and that is piss poor parenting.


Why would it matter if the wife has more sexual partners than the husband? They are both having extra marital sex with other people?

What if the husband was young Keanu Reeves good looking; and his wife was merely average. In today's sexual climate, he's going to get a lot of interest. Would it be okay if he was getting equal or more numbers of sex partners?


I've always gotten the impression on TAM that most of the men here don't disagree with open marriage as such. It's just that their wife would get so much more "action", that really sticks in their craw.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> Until one day the police find you dead in bed, and your bank account drained, and the wife gone.


Fool. That's more likely a projection of your own fears.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

bandit.45 said:


> Until one day the police find you dead in bed, and your bank account drained, and the wife gone.


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## Edmund (Apr 1, 2017)

His response... you are on the wrong forum website. Suggest you take this question to the Swingersboard.com people there are for the most part comfortable with these life styles and will likely provide you with the type of response you seem to be looking for.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

notmyrealname4 said:


> I've always gotten the impression on TAM that most of the men here don't disagree with open marriage as such. It's just that their wife would get so much more "action", that really sticks in their craw.


Not true in my case. I abhor the idea that my wife would have sex with another man -- I would never be ok with that even if I got to have sex with Adriana Lima AND Selma Hayek at the same time. NOPE.
AND, I WOULD NOT have sex with them even if my wife gave me the ok (and of course THEY agreed). I'm just not wired that way. I'm married to my wife. She is it.
I understand that some couples can do this and they are welcome to it -- for ME, I just cannot comprehend the mindset that allows this.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

My wife and I were in the lifestyle for about 10 years. For several of those years we were very active and have attended many different clubs and conventions and parties etc throughout a handful of different states. 

I have no moral or ethical objections to consensual nonmonogamy assuming it is sane, sober, consenting adults and everyone is entering into it freely of their own free will without manipulation, false pretense or duress. 

It worked well for us and we experienced no major problems because of it. 

IMHO you could say that we were a swinging success story. 

However I will give you the good, the bad and the ugly of the swinging lifestyle based on what I have seen and experienced in my own experience and in serious discussions with others in the lifestyle. 

First of all, swinging and cheating are unrelated and are two opposite ends of the spectrum. Swinging does not prevent cheating any more than monogamy causes it and neither does swinging direct cause cheating. Swingers cheat and swingers remain faithful at basically the same rates as do traditional couples. 

Cheating is a character issue and issue related to selfishness, entitlement, poor impulse control, drunkenness and lack of respect and poor boundaries. Those things occur in the swinging community at pretty much the same rate as in the traditional community. 

In other words, swingers cheat pretty much no more and no less than any other segment of the population. 

The same is true with divorce. At one time some statistics showed that swingers divorced at an ever so slightly rate than traditional couples. I question that statistic and question whether there is a relation at all. 

Now I will say that if you come to a traditional relationship-based website like TAM, you will read horror stories of swinging gone bad. That's because people who's marriage/relationship has gone to pot will naturally look for explanations and will place blame. 

The people for who swinging is working fine, will be out partying and living it up and won't be moaning and groaning on a relationship forum. 

cont....


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## biwing (Feb 2, 2017)

For the record, my wife and I have had an open marriage for the last 30 yrs. We took it slowly at first, three years of discussion before our first MFM. We are very stable in our personal relationship and use the outside sex as a way to bring freshness into our bedroom.

We started this whole thing as we both were virgins at our wedding and one time during a sexual bout, my wife casually made the statement that she has wondered if she had missed out on not being with other men by marrying at age 20. Several days later, after I had thought about her statement, I brought the subject up while watching TV, to get her thoughts without a sexually clouded mind set. We then started our discussions and settled on a MFM with a mutual friend of ours. I had misgivings for about 1 minute when he first entered her but soon was lost in my own lust and her enjoyment. We waited a month or so after that night, discussing what had transpired and our feelings ultimately deciding to continue on this type of journey.

We cellibrated our 49th year anniversary last week and we are more in love now as ever. We don't do outside play anymore but have some great memories and fodder for our sexual relations.

We know that this life style isn't for everyone, but encourage couples to explore their fantasys and enjoy the one's that satisify both parties!


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Cont....


Now for us it worked and we had a blast and had no major repercussions. 

I personally know a number of couples who have been in the lifestyle much longer than us and have known couples that seemed perfectly happy and healthy as couples after being in the lifestyle 20+ years. 

That being said, I also personally know a few couples that basically shot themselves in the foot right out of the gates. 

I know couples that split up shortly after their first or second experience. 

I know two couples that got together and within days the H of one couple and the W of the other took off together. 

I personally had a FWB for a couple years and she approached me about inviting a female coworker of hers to join us. Of course I jumped at that and had the time of my life. The two girls obviously had a better time of their lives for they are now together as a couple and I pretty much got the left in the dust and haven't seen them since and the last I heard they were getting married (I am in a same-sex state) 

Now that was just a FWB and while I miss playing with them, I am happy for them that they each found their special someone. 

My point to this is there are very real-world risks to swinging and I have never hidden or glossed over that fact here on TAM. 

However one must also accept the fact that traditional marriages also experience loss of love and attraction and experience infidelity and experience divorce all the time. 

Yes, I was concerned about my wife falling for a play partner as she also had concerns about the same with me. However we could have each just as easily fallen for a neighbor or a coworker or old high school friend or someone at the gym etc. 

The way I saw it, I could remain in a traditional marriage and hope my wife didn't fall for a coworker or what not. Or we could get out and have the time of our lives and live the lives of porn stars and live with basically the same concern. 

After a couple years of discussion and research, we opted for the latter. No regrets.

Cont...


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> BTW of course she will tell you that she gets better orgasms with you. Its what you want to hear.


Just like your husband tells you he's never looked at porn.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Cont.....

Now I will throw in the caveat that not all swinging is created the same in terms of risk. 

In my experience and the things that I have seen first hand, some forms of swinging/open marriage carry more risk than others. 

At one end of the spectrum I believe that couple/couple swinging where all 4 parties are consenting and all are of relatively the same level of attractiveness and same level of interest and respect for all have the lowest level of risk of damaging the primary relationship. 

At the highest end of the spectrum is the Cuckold/Hot Wife scenario where the wife's attractiveness is markedly higher than the H's and the playmates that she plays with are more attractive and virile than the H. 

In those instances, it can almost be assured that at some point she is going to lose esteem and attraction for the H and their marital sexlife will suffer eventually and the risk of her cheating or outright leaving is quite high. 

In between those two ends of the spectrum, I believe that the more a couple entertains playmates alone, the greater the chances for major problems rise exponentially. 

Almost all of the couples that I have known that have split up due to swinging were when they were playing alone. 

I'm not saying all couples who play alone will split up. My wife and I have even done so on a couple rare occasions. But what I am saying is that the risk goes higher and higher the more a couple ventures out as individuals. 

This is based on things I have seen first hand in my 10 years as a swinger. Couples that play together, tend to stay together at a higher rate.

It is a shared experience and one in which they are participating in together.... kind of like doubles in tennis. 

Once you start venturing out on your own, you are bonding as an individual with another individual. Things are more likely to happen that are not in the benefit of the couple or of the marriage.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

It seems to work great until one day when it doesn't work. That's the problem because usually on the day it doesn't work the marriage ends. It doesn't seem to work like dance lessons for instance where you try it and then stop, usually there is a good chance of it stopping when once spouse meets someone who presses all the buttons. Now you may press all the buttons too but you are still the familiar spouse who presses all the buttons, and has all the baggage, not the new shiny potential mate who has no baggage yet. It just seems like a big risk. But it's your marriage and your life, I would rather those who are into it would be honest so those of us who are not can avoid end up with someone who is. 

Part of my distaste for people who are poly or swingers is that most my experience and hearing stories of is that most of of them are liars. Seems they are only honest about it after you have hide their true nature long enough for someone who is monogamous to fall in love with them. Then this poor sucker is forced to split the baby and make a terrible choice, often with tremendous, often years of pressure thrown in. It's quite obvious that they are not honest up front because they know if they were the pool of potential mates would be much smaller. Doesn't exactly put them in a good light, they just seem like *******s.

For instance say I divorced I would never marry a women who was a swinger. I just find it gross and would immediately loose my attraction, so if she lied to me and didn't tell me I would be pissed. However I have had arguments on here with swingers who have told me they wouldn't say even if I asked. Again, seems like a **** move to keep that hidden. I bet if I didn't tell this same person that I was a secret Evangelical Christian (I'm not) they would have a problem with that.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

bandit.45 said:


> Until one day the police find you dead in bed, and your bank account drained, and the wife gone.


Because no nonswinger has ever killed their spouse and/or emptied out the bank account.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> No you haven't been faithful. You have had sex with others, as has she. That isn't faithfulness, its adultery even if you give permission. It will end in tears sooner or later.


I know we'll never agree on this but I have to say it anyway - "faithfulness" is following the agreed-upon rules and sticking to the plan that two people have laid out together as a couple. 

If both agree to monogamy, then faithfulness is not being with others. 

If both agree to some form of swinging/open marriage/polyamory etc, then faithfulness is abiding by those rules. 

If you want to embrace a biblical definition of adultery as being with more than one person even if agreed upon, then that is your prerogative. I disagree that it is adultery if it is consensual by all. But if that is the definition you wish to embrace, that is your choice. 

But faithfulness, is more fluid and situational. If he has been faithful to her wishes and her boundaries and guidelines, then he has been faithful.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

with 20 posts, how could you possibly know Diana7?

Oh goody! This thread gives me more names to block!! I don't respect or want to read any posts by people who openly cheat on their spouse, even if they have permission.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Very good post Happy.

I will add my $.02 in bold below.




happyhusband0005 said:


> Yes many couples who try an open marriage swinging whatever fail bad and hard.
> 
> *Agreed. I have seen this first hand a number of times myself*
> 
> ...


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Araucaria said:


> with 20 posts, how could you possibly know Diana7?
> 
> Oh goody! This thread gives me more names to block!! I don't respect or want to read any posts by people who openly cheat on their spouse, even if they have permission.


No hard feelings Araucaria, I can understand why you feel the way you do. Though I think saying you have no respect for someone you've never met is a bit extreme, it's not personal, it's the choice we make for our own reasons and view it in a very different way than you do. I can tell you this though. 1 If you met me in person you would have no idea about this. 2 You would probably find me to be a very nice, caring, generous person. 3 You likely know one or two people/couples who do or have participated in the "lifestyle" in some way.

The thing you have to understand is no person I have ever met in the years of doing this would ever try to convince someone to give it a shot. It is not for most people we all understand that and we have all seen it ruin relationships and once you've been around long enough you can call the ones that will fail with spectacular accuracy. 

As to the idea of calling it cheating, hey to you it is to us it isn't. If I was running around having sex with women without my wife's knowledge or if I approached it in a way that violated the boundaries we have set then yes that would be cheating as we define it. Every successful couple who swings (for lack of a better word) has a set of rules, vows if you will, that are discussed and tried and discussed, after some time they may change to be less restrictive, they may become more restrictive. For the vast majority of people it is something they pursue together, the couples I know that like the hot wife scenario the guy is usually present some are in the next room. For us being centered on other women we have never done anything without the other present, thats just how we roll others are different. The point is it really is something that the couple does together with the intention of strengthening their relationship. I know that makes zero sense to you, but I wanted to try to clear up some common misconceptions. Most "lifestyle" couples are not out their just hooking up with whoever they want whenever they want without any knowledge of the other, for most that would be considered cheating. 

I have 100% respect for your point of view and understand why you would never do anything like it nor do I think you ever should. But to state you don't want to hear the opinions of a person because of their sexual preferences and that you have zero respect for them, thats a little bit overdone. 

Peace and Love, Peace and Love


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

I was in an open relationship and it lasted less than a year. My wife and I were not in a monogamous marriage. We engaged in wife swapping, soft swinging, foursomes and threesomes. We shared a girlfriend for most of our 46 years of marriage. Needless to say, our friends tended to be in some form of open marriage. None of them lasted long because one, and in the case of our best friends, both met better people that they fell in love with. As my wife and I learned, you can fall in love with more than one person. 

We started out in an open marriage. I was dating my secretary and sure enough I fell deeply in love with her and left my wife. I came to my senses a month later and went back to my wife. Our girlfriend who was not only splitting her time between living with us and her husband, got pregnant by some guy. No pregnancy was the only rule they had and oops. Rules mean nothing and are false security. Saying that you will tell the other if you develop feelings for someone rarely happens since you love that person and do not want to ruin a good thing. All in all three married couples that we knew socially and played with at one time or another got divorced and after seeing that we ended up as a polyfidelitous triad and lasted 46 years.

There is a reason why you cannot find any or even a few married couples in open marriages in real life. That is because few do it and fewer still make it work. Try to find a couple in an open marriage that has been married a long time. They are as rare as hen's teeth. Discount all the BS you read online about an open marriage being an exploration of trust. The time to explore trust is before you marry, not after. Every divorced couple has stated at one time or another that they have a strong marriage. The question is that if it is so strong and stable, why do you need to each find other lovers? My wife never took another lover. She only participated in playing with others as a couple with me. I tried having another lover and saw that it risked my marriage and almost lost it so I stopped that. 

I am in no position to tell you not to do it since I am not without sin. However I ask that you think about why you cannot find people in real life that have made it work past 5-10 years. We never met any and to this day we never met another poly triad that lasted even half as long as we did. I am sure there are a few out there but for the most part, not many. The question is why even bother to get married if you both want to date other people? Whatever the reason is, you still can do it without getting married. I agree that no two people can fulfill all the needs and wants of another. That is why we got involved with other people. However we did it in such as way as to not jeopardize our marriage. We shared lovers and we saw each other have sex with others so that we could see that it was just sex and not making love. 

I had no problem watching my wife have sex with others but would have a problem with her dating others without me being there. That makes it too easy for like to turn to love and how can we argue with success. Good luck in whatever you do but think about why you cannot find people in real life that made it work.


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## His_Response (Jun 14, 2018)

Andy1001 said:


> You can have a mutually fulfilling relationship with any woman or man you want and as long as nobody is getting hurt and everyone is over the age of consent then my attitude is go for it.
> However that is not what is being discussed.The op admits his wife was refusing to have sex with him then they started “playing” and their sex life improved.If your getting nothing then anything has to be an improvement,yes?
> She is out of his league looks wise so who is really getting the benefit of this game.
> The funniest thing the op said was that they tell each other ahead of time unless it is something “spontaneous” then they tell each other immediately after.So in other words she ****s whoever she wants,whenever she wants and because she may tell him after the fact then everything is ok.
> He is being ridden so hard he should be wearing a saddle and the sad part is he doesn’t even realize it.


Andy, if you're going to lie, at least make it worth the time. You're creating your own story here, while my original words are still there to contradict you. Give it up.

-H.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

His_Response said:


> Really, Diana? Funny, I expected a better reply from you. (In answer to your question, yes. And I've always been faithful.)
> 
> -H.


Really, H? Funny, I would expect that considering this is a forum for Marriage, that you would be aware of the fact that probably over 90% of the posters prefer monogamy.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

Mmm, just what I want sloppy seconds.


I'll pass thank you.


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## Tomara (Jun 19, 2013)

Marriage was meant to be one man and one wife. Stay single if you want sex with multiple people. Oh forgot, you only want opinions that support your lifestyle.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

His_Response said:


> Sorry, but that's your opinion. Maybe you should look of the definition of faithful. It means true, devoted, loyal, constant. Not arguing about adultery... but please don't presume to judge how devoted my wife and I are to each other. Without knowing us personally, you're simply not in a position to know that. (Not trying to be argumentative... but I will defend myself.)
> 
> 
> -H.


Call it what you like but having sex with someone else is still unfaithfulness.


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## His_Response (Jun 14, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> Call it what you like but having sex with someone else is still unfaithfulness.



I've given my explanation of why I disagree... how about you? Simply stating your view as being a fact doesn't make it so. I'm not calling it what I like... I gave you the dictionary definition.

Funny, I seem to remember saying something about judgement in my original post. It's sad that people can't allow for differences of viewpoint.


-H.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

His_Response said:


> Funny, I seem to remember saying something about judgement in my original post. It's sad that people can't allow for differences of viewpoint.


This really isn't the board for you to get the discussion you want. What percentage of this board do you think supports this kind of lifestyle? I'm guessing it's a very low percentage. It's like going to an AA meeting and saying you want to hear about all the positive aspects about drinking. If you want to have a discussion about ways in which marriage and swinging can be done in a healthy way, go to a swinging board. There you will find lots of people who have been successful and know what the pitfalls are.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

His_Response said:


> I've given my explanation of why I disagree... how about you? Simply stating your view as being a fact doesn't make it so. I'm not calling it what I like... I gave you the dictionary definition.
> 
> Funny, I seem to remember saying something about judgement in my original post. It's sad that people can't allow for differences of viewpoint.
> 
> ...


You don't address my post about how lots of you folks are liars and only bring up the polymorphy after you have married and trapped your monogamous partner. You guys never seem to even police that, makes you seem like *******s, if we are to paint with a broad brush. At the very least your "lifestyle" requires you all to be very duplicitous about a huge aspect of your life. Lots of times potential mates. It's hard not to judge you on that fact. 

For me I happen to like and want to associate with open people, just makes them safer and seem more genuine. I actually probably wouldn't care much if someone came and told me they were a swinger. I would think that aspect of their life was gross, but their are lots things I think that way about. Probably won't stop me from being friendly with them. Not sure we would be close I think our view of life would not really mesh well.


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## His_Response (Jun 14, 2018)

Vinnydee said:


> I had no problem watching my wife have sex with others but would have a problem with her dating others without me being there. That makes it too easy for like to turn to love and how can we argue with success. Good luck in whatever you do but think about why you cannot find people in real life that made it work.



Thanks for the insight, Vinnydee. Just to clarify a point, my wife and I don't do anything with others beyond what happens in the privacy of a hotel room. For instance, no 'dating', or anything that would encourage more romantic feelings, if you will. (Of course there is the danger that being alone with someone sexually will lead to romantic feelings, but this is something we've accepted as a risk, though less than if we were spending more time with them.) I completely agree that this lifestyle won't work for most couples... however we do know other couples in this lifestyle that have made it work, some for many, many years. (Where we live there is a higher-than-average number of couples in this lifestyle, if you accept the data provided by certain web sites.) I certainly am not encouraging others to try it... as mentioned in my original post, I was only asking to see if there were others here that had made it work (at least so far), as it would be nice to have someone to talk to that might better understand my situation. Sadly it seems some people prefer to throw stones. 


-H.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

His_Response said:


> Thanks for the insight, Vinnydee. Just to clarify a point, my wife and I don't do anything with others beyond what happens in the privacy of a hotel room. For instance, no 'dating', or anything that would encourage more romantic feelings, if you will. (Of course there is the danger that being alone with someone sexually will lead to romantic feelings, but this is something we've accepted as a risk, though less than if we were spending more time with them.) I completely agree that this lifestyle won't work for most couples... however we do know other couples in this lifestyle that have made it work, some for many, many years. (Where we live there is a higher-than-average number of couples in this lifestyle, if you accept the data provided by certain web sites.) I certainly am not encouraging others to try it... as mentioned in my original post, I was only asking to see if there were others here that had made it work (at least so far), as it would be nice to have someone to talk to that might better understand my situation. Sadly it seems some people prefer to throw stones.
> 
> 
> -H.


Um their are plenty of sites where the whole point is to talk about your lifestyle. You got 4 responses, that seems like a good ratio considering. Even where you live I am sure it is a very small percentage.


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## His_Response (Jun 14, 2018)

sokillme said:


> You don't address my post about how lots of you folks are liars and only bring up the polymorphy after you have married and trapped your monogamous partner. You guys never seem to even police that, makes you seem like *******s, if are to paint with a broad brush. At the very least your "lifestyle" requires you all to be very duplicitous to lots of people in your life. Lots of times potential mates. It's hard not to judge you on that fact.
> 
> For me I happen to like and want to associate with open people, just makes them safer and seem more genuine. I actually probably wouldn't care much if someone came and told me they were a swinger. I would think that aspect of their life was gross, but their are lots things I think that way about. Probably won't stop me from being friendly with them. Not sure we would be close I think our view of life would not really mesh well.


Sokillme, you pretty much answered your own question, above, as I did when I posted originally. If you have a look back at it, in my last sentence I asked that I was fine answering questions, as long as people would not be judgemental. Looking at your first line, above, how do you think I should respond? (Not kidding, I mean that seriously.)

If you want a response, ask a question, and do it without calling me a liar in your first breath. As it is, why would I reply if you've already got it in your head that I'm a liar? I mean, really, what would be the point?

If, on the other hand, you were to ask me whether this was something I had been open to when I got married, I would have replied that no, I definitely would not have been open to this idea then. That was over 25 years ago, and I was a different person. Over the years I've gotten more open minded about what is necessarily 'the way things are', if you get my meaning. I spent 20 years thinking my wife was an innocent-minded woman that would never, ever consider doing anything outside the bounds of 'normal' sex. I was wrong. I learned that my wife had fantasies too... and as she got older, she came to realize that she wanted to fulfill some of those fantasies. So she opened up to me about them, and yes, I was very surprised. We talked a lot about it before we decided to do anything, and we took it slow. It wasn't all roses... and it's still not always easy. I'm very protective of my wife, and leaving her alone is not easy for me. Of the two of us, I'm the romantic one... she's the more logical, sometimes. 

As for whether we could be friends... you might be surprised. Aside from this one difference in our marriage, we're a very, very normal couple. Nice house, good jobs, good kids (grown now). And no, our children don't know about this part of our life... we didn't start into it until they were in their late teens. But to our friends we are considered one of the most 'in love' couples they know. Might be hard to believe, but it's true. If you were my neighbor, we would likely get along perfectly well.

Anyway... I hope that answers your question.


-H.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Are you guys against open marriage in principle; as in, it's wrong because it adulterates the sexual bond a couple has?
> 
> Or are you against it only because the wife is likely to have more partners than her husband?


I'd say that 90% of women can easily find sex partners and only 5 to 10% of men can do the same.

So, assuming the 10% of men are married to women belonging in the top 90% (seems like a safe bet) you'd expect the following results given an open marriage:

10% - Neither husband or wife find partners

80% - The wife can have all the partners she wants, the husband will have trouble finding any.

10% - Both will be able to find as many partners as they'd like.

That last 10% is where the potential for success with open marriages exists.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

His_Response said:


> I've given my explanation of why I disagree... how about you? Simply stating your view as being a fact doesn't make it so. I'm not calling it what I like... I gave you the dictionary definition.
> 
> Funny, I seem to remember saying something about judgement in my original post. It's sad that people can't allow for differences of viewpoint.
> 
> ...


You are free to live how you like, as long as you accept what you are both doing and the consequences when they come.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Buddy400 said:


> I'd say that 90% of women can easily find sex partners and only 5 to 10% of men can do the same.
> 
> So, assuming the 10% of men are married to women belonging in the top 90% (seems like a safe bet) you'd expect the following results given an open marriage:
> 
> ...


Yeah ever notice that the swinger husbands never look like George Clooney. That's because that guy's wife is too smart to let that happen, seems like then the desperate desires aren't so important if that's the case.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

No judgment here. 

Just not for me. 

Seems like the rules about only both of us play could be blurred after awhile when some hot dude starts flirting one could eaisly jump to the well we bang other people all the time. And this dude is hot mmmmmmm. Mmmmm. 

Then if your partner finds out and is all butt hurt you can can say .whats the big deal its only sex. 

Lots of marriage fail because of this and threesomes. 


Different strokes for different folks.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

sokillme said:


> You don't address my post about how lots of you folks are liars and only bring up the polymorphy after you have married and trapped your monogamous partner. You guys never seem to even police that, makes you seem like *******s, if we are to paint with a broad brush. At the very least your "lifestyle" requires you all to be very duplicitous about a huge aspect of your life. Lots of times potential mates. It's hard not to judge you on that fact.
> 
> .


This not only comes off as very judgemental, it also sounds pretty paranoid and even a bit offensive. 

The vast majority of swingers are just normal, middle aged, married couples with kids and jobs and bills and house repairs etc. 

This is not the Illuminati or some sinister underground organization that preys on innocent and hapless vanillas and tries to convert them over to sex demons. 

It's not like swingers come from some kind of swinger factory or that they are some kind of different species that preys on unsuspecting monogamists. 

The vast majority are just like my wife and I who met at work, started making eyes at each other until I finally grew the giblets to ask her out on a date, we dated for a year or so, got engaged, got married, had two kids and had a completely traditional and run-of-the-mill marriage for 10 years before the idea even came up. 

Then we discussed it for a couple years and started dipping our toe in those waters and started making baby steps. 

Most, if not darn near all of the couples that we met in the lifestyle were just like us. It was a way lot less dramatic and no where near the mystery and intrigue of what you are suggesting. 

Swingers want to have fun and hot sex with others of like minds that also want to swing. They do not prey on or spend years scheming on how to prey on and pull on over on unsuspecting church people. They'd rather be partying with people who want to get down and party too. 

You know a number of swingers in your community, church and place of employment - you just don't know they are because they aren't hitting on you.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> This not only comes off as very judgemental, it also sounds pretty paranoid and even a bit offensive.
> 
> The vast majority of swingers are just normal, middle aged, married couples with kids and jobs and bills and house repairs etc.
> 
> ...


Sorry but my interaction has just rubbed me the wrong way.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Because no nonswinger has ever killed their spouse and/or emptied out the bank account.




Why do you need to kill them? Surely just divorcing will do the trick.
This is developing into a crime story quickly...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> I know we'll never agree on this but I have to say it anyway - "faithfulness" is following the agreed-upon rules and sticking to the plan that two people have laid out together as a couple.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




But it all assumes attraction is something you can control. It’s already impossible for many not to feel attraction for someone else outside the marriage that they don’t usually ****. But ****ing them (with permission in an open marriage) and then still pretend to love your spouse deeply is surely almost impossible. (In this particular context). 
You then remain in a marriage where you are deeply unhappy. Even more so because you had a ‘taste’ of what it felt like to be with someone you actually had a strong attraction to.

I agree it can work for some but the rate of success vs failure is too high for it to even be considered for most couples.



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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

His_Response said:


> but this is something we've accepted as a risk,



The way risk and probabilities usually work is that even if you ‘accept’ something as a risk, it doesn’t stop posing a risk anymore.
It’s still just a matter of time until it blows up but just that you both know that it’s a matter of time. It doesn’t make it less likely unfortunately.

Say you stand on top of a burning building. Whether you know that it is burning or not doesn’t change the probability of you going down with with, provided you keep standing.

I am not saying you will, just that I heard this many times before and I think there’s a big misunderstanding what ‘risk’ means.



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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> My wife and I *were in the lifestyle for about 10 years. *




Why did you decide to exit the lifestyle; seeing as you found it to be such a positive experience?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Buddy400 said:


> I'd say that 90% of women can easily find sex partners and only 5 to 10% of men can do the same.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Numbers are probably even more skewed in reality.
Also women (typically) don’t ‘fin’ partners; they often either accept or reject sexual advances by men.
True, men get hit on too but more often than not, we are the ‘hunters’ (and prefer that role too).
But in the end it’s the same: if me and my wife ‘advertised’ ourselves as wanting to guck anyone, regardless, my wife will be having more sex, regardless whether I’m more attractive or have more ‘value’ in the open market.
With age things change around a bit but not for quite a while yet.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

His_Response said:


> I spent 20 years thinking my wife was an innocent-minded woman that would never, ever consider doing anything outside the bounds of 'normal' sex. I was wrong. I learned that my wife had fantasies too... and as she got older, she came to realize that she wanted to fulfill some of those fantasies. So she opened up to me about them, and yes, I was very surprised.



So this initiative (sort of) came from her in the first instance? Then the more relevant question is: do you enjoy sleeping with other women as much as she enjoys other men? Would you prefer if all her dreams and fantasies were fulfilled solely by you in an ideal world? And if she hasn’t brought it up, would you have considered changing anything in your marriage?
I hope those are all the non-insulting types of questions that may clarify the situation possibly for you as well.



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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

So to keep her from cheating you gave her permission to **** other men. 

To each their own I guess.

Still can’t understand why husbands stay with another mans *****. I bet she is shy, so shy she doesn’t want you hearing how piss poor in bed she tells the OM you are.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> But it all assumes attraction is something you can control. It’s already impossible for many not to feel attraction for someone else outside the marriage that they don’t usually ****. But ****ing them (with permission in an open marriage) and then still pretend to love your spouse deeply is surely almost impossible. (In this particular context).
> You then remain in a marriage where you are deeply unhappy. Even more so because you had a ‘taste’ of what it felt like to be with someone you actually had a strong attraction to.
> 
> I agree it can work for some but the rate of success vs failure is too high for it to even be considered for most couples.
> ...



You are assuming one can only feel attraction or desire for one person.

Now it's true that for a number of people that may be the case.

Many of the posters here on TAM readily admit that can only desire/love/be attracted to one person at a time and only want their partner to desire them. That is fine and that is how most traditional marriages work; or it is at least the goal. 

But many people active in the lifestyle CAN be attracted to a number of people and still remain hot for their spouse and still love and be devoted to them. 


I know it's a foreign concept to many and the vast majority of people on earth have no interest in swinging. But for a small percentage of people, it works for them.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> You are assuming one can only feel attraction or desire for one person.
> 
> Now it's true that for a number of people that may be the case.
> 
> ...


Well I am just genuinely curious about how this works. Even if you can feel desire/attraction for more than one person, how can you make sure that attraction is directed where you want it to and with the right amount of intensity (for it not to become a real threat to the marriage). How can you also be sure you can always judge the situation and your feelings impartially/without bias? How easy is it to mistake simple sexual curiosity with genuine desire for someone else? And even if you can account for all that, to complicate it even more, make sure that your partner has EXACTLY the same mindset/judgement/self control ability as you do.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

I don't think I could be involved in an open marriage because I tie love to sex. If one could not do that, I can see how an open marriage could work. Though an open marriage is not for me, I don't care to tell others what they should make of their marriage.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Never been in an open marriage, but I have had an open minded girlfriend or two. Lets just say one of them convinced me to go to a very well known resort where this kind of thing is common. Honestly I didn't think I would mind if anything happened because its not like I had deep feelings for her, or viewed her as "the one". Neither one of us had tried the lifestyle or swapping, I agreed to go because she was curious and honestly so was I. We had a blast, not because we actually participated. Its that we quickly realized the fantasy and reality do not match at all!!!! I know this will sound judgemental.... but.... I don't really care. Based on my experience, swingers are not attractive people...at all. We had a lot of fun people watching and were respectful and nice, but we were definitely the hottest people at the entire resort. 

At least for me if you have a really good looking gal that you like and are attracted to, zero point in "sharing" what is yours (not PC, but any woman dating me is indeed mine). Just find other ways to spice things up. Because what you get won't equal what you already have, at least based on my limited experience. We were polite to those that approached us, but at the same time I kept thinking to myself, why would I trade my solid 9 girlfriend for your 3 or 4!!!! There was nothing sexy about that weekend except what happened between me and her in our room. We did have a LOT of fun people watching though. 

One other thing....even though it was her idea to go in the first place. I think it actually turned her on more that I had zero interest in anyone, and that I made it clear to her that nothing was going down shortly after our arrival. Was it the ultimate sh!t test? I guess I will never know as that relationship is over, but I did get the feeling that she liked the fact that I shut it down almost immediately, and she seemed happy and more relaxed once I did that. I think rather than going with it, sometimes you get more respect saying no and sticking with those caveman instincts that all of us have. Not judging you, but I would imagine you have regrets or you wouldn't have posted. Maybe its not too late to take a step back and put an end to your participation in the lifestyle. Maybe if you put your foot down, she might actually like it. With that said if it doesn't bother you at all, and you are happy then who am I to judge, just offering my perspective.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> Well I am just genuinely curious about how this works. Even if you can feel desire/attraction for more than one person, how can you make sure that attraction is directed where you want it to and with the right amount of intensity (for it not to become a real threat to the marriage). How can you also be sure you can always judge the situation and your feelings impartially/without bias? How easy is it to mistake simple sexual curiosity with genuine desire for someone else? And even if you can account for all that, to complicate it even more, make sure that your partner has EXACTLY the same mindset/judgement/self control ability as you do.


You are basically asking for guarentees that all will work out perfectly and that no one will ever experience discomfort and that nothing distressing will ever happen.

Sorry, there are no guarantees in anything.

No one can guarentee any of those things in a monogamous relationship either. 

You take a certain amount of risks and take the pros with the cons in an exclusive relationship.

And you take a certain amount of risk and take the pros and the cons with a none clumsier relationship as well.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Well I am just genuinely curious about how this works. Even if you can feel desire/attraction for more than one person, how can you make sure that attraction is directed where you want it to and with the right amount of intensity (for it not to become a real threat to the marriage). How can you also be sure you can always judge the situation and your feelings impartially/without bias? How easy is it to mistake simple sexual curiosity with genuine desire for someone else? And even if you can account for all that, to complicate it even more, make sure that your partner has EXACTLY the same mindset/judgement/self control ability as you do.


How can you be sure of any of this in a monogamous marriage? You can't. You either make it work because you want to and it's worth it to you, or you fail. The people who find that it works for them don't really worry about it, because they have the ability to keep things in perspective, or compartmentalized, or whatever other way works for them. There is no _one_ answer. You can learn a lot from hearing or reading about other experiences, but ultimately you have to figure it out for yourselves. Also it really does not matter whether or not my partner has the same mindset, etc., as me. She has her own unique perspective and own ways of handling things, but the end result works for us both. We also know (from experience) and trust (also from experience) that we can discuss and adjust, or compromise, or even stop (which we have for various reasons, for a while) if that's what's best for us. There isn't any imbalance, and if any develops, we deal with it. 

There is also a difference between polyamorous relationships (where loving someone else is expected and encouraged) and swinging, where you don't (or if you do start to get too attached, you stop seeing the couple that creates these feelings). Open relationships are much harder, as you don't usually see other people _together_, so more communication and trust is needed. It's easier to successfully ease into open relationships (or choose not to) if you already have experience with poly or swinging. What's right for any individual or couple is going to be at least a little different than for any others. Monogamy may seem like a uniform, monolithic relationship style, but there are many, many ways to do that, as well. If that's what feels right for you, then that's what you should pursue. But it doesn't work in the traditional ways for some people, so then it may take some exploration and risk-taking to find what does. As with dating, you're bound to have some negative results before getting to something that works (or at least does for a while).


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> You are basically asking for guarentees that all will work out perfectly and that no one will ever experience discomfort and that nothing distressing will ever happen.
> 
> Sorry, there are no guarantees in anything.
> 
> ...


Well no. I don't think you can quite compare the risks of a monogamous relationship with a non-monogamous relationship, can you? 
What probability do you put on a non-monogamous relationship blowing up? I am sure there are statistics for it. Isn't the rate of failure for monogamous marriages something like 30-40%? (Can't remember). 
What would you estimate the rate to be for a non-monogamous relationship?
It's just an odds game. Of course nothing is guaranteed but as always, it is not a black & white thing.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Why did you decide to exit the lifestyle; seeing as you found it to be such a positive experience?


The main reason comes down to menopause. 

My wife went through menopause and has had a number of other health issues and some weight gain etc etc and basically lost most of her libido and pretty all interest in the lifestyle. 

I'm now 54 and while I'd like to think I'm still a stud-horse, my expanding waistline and increasing interest in sitting on the couch watching The Walking Dead says otherwise.

Nobody does it forever. 

I do miss it and if the stars all lined up and some golden opportunity fell in my lap, I'd thank my lucky stars. 

But it is no longer something that I/we pursue.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> What probability do you put on a non-monogamous relationship blowing up?


According to the statistics people throw around here - about 50+%.

Add to that the number of people who have remained legally married but are miserable but refuse to divorce for religious and financial reasons and I think that shows that monogamy is not without it's risks or drawbacks.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

His_Response said:


> Fair question, and yes, we gave this a lot of thought before we started. We made some initial ground rules, and modified them a bit as we went along. As I noted, there were a few bumps at first, and I also noted that I don't think that this can work for many couples... probably less than 1%, frankly, and even then I have made no claims at all that I think we're somehow safe from failure. I only said that so far, things are going fine. My wife and I are in agreement that we would stop this extra fun if it we saw it endangering our relationship. (And we are fully aware that it's potentially like walking in a mine-field... but with honesty and openness, and great communication, we think we can handle it.)
> 
> Aside from having access to each other's phones, etc, we also do things like always controlling the environment (e.g. no sleep-overs, no 'dates', *nothing 'romantic' with those we play with*), we always talk about what is going on, what plans we have, or who we might be considering having fun with. We both have veto power over the other's playmates, and playmates never come between us. (e.g. She will instantly drop any playdate she has, as will I, if either one of us feels uncomfortable. And that's not in theory... we've both done it.)
> 
> ...


Nothing romantic huh? Having sex can be pretty romantic with a woman that's highly attractive, new, fun, etc.
You are really in denial. I'm curious how you deal with knowing that other men are screwing your wife. I totally don't understand how one could share their wife. You have said that she has the best orgasms with you. How could you possibly believe that? Why would she even want someone else if the best sex is with you? This is totally illogical.

What I'm seeing is that your wife STOPPED having sex with you (her sex drive was zero-- really?), and suddenly she wants to have sex with other men. Now she IS having sex with other men. 

Why wouldn't your wife run off with the first wealthier, more handsome, better in bed, more-fun-to-talk-to man that she beds?
It's not like she adores you so much that she even cares who you are screwing, and it's not like you are sharing much of anything with you if she is with other men and you're with other women.

This is all nonsensical to me. You must know in the back of your mind that your marriage was over a long time ago, and you're just there until she falls for what she perceives as an upgrade. 

Then again, you could be totally right. Your wife may just like having sex with different men and really doesn't have any intention of messing up a good thing (a husband that lets her do whatever she wants and still pays the bills).
It just isn't something I could fathom-- my wife being with other men.

Good luck,
I think you're going to need it.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> According to the statistics people throw around here - about 50+%.
> 
> Add to that the number of people who have remained legally married but are miserable but refuse to divorce for religious and financial reasons and I think that shows that monogamy is not without it's risks or drawbacks.


Do you have a link? I think IRL it would be over 80% at least (or triple the monogamous' marriage risk profile).
I don't think anyone is arguing that monogamy is not without risks. But lets try comparing apples with apples: the same marriage that is likely to survive non-monogamy is likely to survive monogamy too, correct?
So adding an element of non-monogamy to an otherwise healthy marriage: by how much would the risks increase?
Nobody can really answer that probably but I would think that it's a substantial increase.

Non-monogamy is also not the answer to a miserable marriage (I know you didn't say that).


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Well no. I don't think you can quite compare the risks of a monogamous relationship with a non-monogamous relationship, can you?
> What probability do you put on a non-monogamous relationship blowing up? I am sure there are statistics for it. Isn't the rate of failure for monogamous marriages something like 30-40%? (Can't remember).
> What would you estimate the rate to be for a non-monogamous relationship?
> It's just an odds game. Of course nothing is guaranteed but as always, it is not a black & white thing.


I like to know if my opinions and perceptions are backed by research (they are), and so I'll share some of the things I've found over the years. 

A very conservative estimate [the rate to be for a non-monogamous relationship] is about 4% of the US population, or (now) over 13 million people. Given a variety of issues, I think it is more likely twice that.
- https://askwonder.com/q/statistics-...style-swinger-market-57daf90faec4161a008a7d8f



> Researchers found no differences between monogamous and consensual nonmonogamous participants in terms of satisfaction and passionate love. There were differences, however, with jealousy and trust, in which the results are opposite to society's presumptions about the benefits from monogamy.
> 
> Another finding differed from people's assumptions that those in nonmonogamous relationships do not care about each other enough to be happy in their primary relationship. The study, however, showed that an individual had more satisfaction, trust, commitment and passionate love in their primary mate than in their secondary relationship.


- Study finds trust, satisfaction high in consensual open relationships | The University Record



> In conclusion, the findings of this study are consistent with those of previous research on swinging that suggest that swingers have high marital and sexual satisfaction. Although there is still a strong societal disapproval of swinging and a belief that swingers have unsatisfactory marriages and are unhappy with their primary relationships, there is no evidence to support such a claim (Jenks, 1998). Swingers seem to be no different from other individuals in the general population regarding their basic demographic characteristics.


- The Swinging Paradigm



> Taking all these data together, it does seem like a myth busted: Not only are consensually nonmonogamous people not less happy, healthy, and sexually satisfied than the general population; they actually seem to enjoy better health, happiness, and sexual vitality.


- https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...1412/are-people-in-open-relationships-happier


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> I like to know if my opinions and perceptions are backed by research (they are), and so I'll share some of the things I've found over the years.
> 
> A very conservative estimate [the rate to be for a non-monogamous relationship] is about 4% of the US population, or (now) over 13 million people. Given a variety of issues, I think it is more likely twice that.
> - https://askwonder.com/q/statistics-...style-swinger-market-57daf90faec4161a008a7d8f
> ...


None of the excerpts you quoted are about breakup incidence of monogamous vs non monogamous couples. They are about happiness etc. I don't really doubt that.


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## His_Response (Jun 14, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> So this initiative (sort of) came from her in the first instance? Then the more relevant question is: do you enjoy sleeping with other women as much as she enjoys other men? Would you prefer if all her dreams and fantasies were fulfilled solely by you in an ideal world? And if she hasn’t brought it up, would you have considered changing anything in your marriage?
> I hope those are all the non-insulting types of questions that may clarify the situation possibly for you as well.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks for asking, prime. 

To be clear, no, the first instance of the idea came from me. What happened was that as my wife's libido improved, (by this time our sex life had been back in good shape for over a year) she found that a certain man in our gym was 'turning her on', every time she was in close proximity to him. I think there was a pheromone connection happening. She was very aware of it, and it was starting to drive her a bit crazy. (Not feelings of love... just feelings of kind of wild sexual desire.) But she had no intention of cheating on me. About this time I had also been asking her what fantasies she had. She had never wanted to admit she had any, but she decided to trust me and tell me about this attraction. Even after opening up to me about it, she was very afraid that I would be angry, hurt, maybe even want a divorce. I had been assuring her it was okay to tell me her fantasies for some time (years), but she still worried that this might be too much. Instead, I was reasonable and calm about it. She had come to me with this... trusted me. And so I was the one that suggested maybe we could make that fantasy happen. She was shocked that I would suggest it, but it played into some fantasies of my own.

As for your second question; from the pure enjoyment side of things, I would say that both of us enjoy each other over occasional playmates, but being with other people is different/new. It's not the same. My wife and I share an intimacy that is better than others because we know each other so well, and love each other, so sex between us is really amazingly wonderful. She is and likely always will be my 'best' partner. Sex with other people is new and different, and frankly ranges from 'okay' to 'wow!'.

Ideal world question; that's actually a difficult one to answer. It's a 'what if', and a person's thoughts and circumstances are affected by their reality, so I don't know what my wish would be if I was indeed the sole focus of all of her desires. 

For your last question, yes, I already had had some thoughts (fantasies) in this direction even before my wife mentioned it, so anything is possible. I just never suspected that my wife had those desires... we had both been raised to be the 'good wife' and 'good husband', so both of us kept those fantasies to ourselves. 

-H.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> None of the excerpts you quoted are about breakup incidence of monogamous vs non monogamous couples. They are about happiness etc. I don't really doubt that.


I doubt those stats exist, as they'd be very difficult to obtain, whereas statistics about traditional marriage are routinely collected. The nonmonogamous people contribute a small amount to the standard stats, but there is no way to parse them further that I'm aware of. However, given that nonmonogamous people are as (or more) happy and healthy than monogamous people, I would expect that they experience similar (or lower) rates of divorce.


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## His_Response (Jun 14, 2018)

Evinrude58 said:


> Nothing romantic huh? Having sex can be pretty romantic with a woman that's highly attractive, new, fun, etc.
> You are really in denial. I'm curious how you deal with knowing that other men are screwing your wife. I totally don't understand how one could share their wife. You have said that she has the best orgasms with you. How could you possibly believe that? Why would she even want someone else if the best sex is with you? This is totally illogical.
> 
> What I'm seeing is that your wife STOPPED having sex with you (her sex drive was zero-- really?), and suddenly she wants to have sex with other men. Now she IS having sex with other men.
> ...



Indeed. Why wouldn't she run off with some other richer, better looking, better-in-bed man? Maybe because she loves me? Maybe because she doesn't see this as looking for a new mate, but rather as some sexual fun? Perhaps because she already has a husband that pays the bills, loves her, provides for her, and who does indeed please her in bed?

Nah, couldn't be that. Odd that she's still with me after all this time, though. 


-H.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

While I have absolutely no problem with those who are able to successfully live this lifestyle and keep their marriage strong and secure, I have to say I've SEEN what's out there on the swinging sites and I'm wondering if your wife is blind or just desperate.

Most of the husbands are absolutely *hideous* and I wouldn't do them for practice. I'm not kidding. 

Is she picking men from the leper colony on swinging sites or is she finding decent men out in the real world?

She's a brave woman indeed.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

His_Response said:


> Thanks for asking, prime.
> 
> To be clear, no, the first instance of the idea came from me. What happened was that as my wife's libido improved, (by this time our sex life had been back in good shape for over a year) she found that a certain man in our gym was 'turning her on', every time she was in close proximity to him. I think there was a pheromone connection happening. She was very aware of it, and it was starting to drive her a bit crazy. (Not feelings of love... just feelings of kind of wild sexual desire.) But she had no intention of cheating on me. About this time I had also been asking her what fantasies she had. She had never wanted to admit she had any, but she decided to trust me and tell me about this attraction. Even after opening up to me about it, she was very afraid that I would be angry, hurt, maybe even want a divorce. I had been assuring her it was okay to tell me her fantasies for some time (years), but she still worried that this might be too much. Instead, I was reasonable and calm about it. She had come to me with this... trusted me. And so I was the one that suggested maybe we could make that fantasy happen. She was shocked that I would suggest it, *but it played into some fantasies of my own.*


What were those? (If you don't mind me asking.) Sharing your wife or experiencing different women yourself or experiencing a particular woman? 

I am not certain one can say it still didn't come from her though: the fact is that it was a *particular person* that set the wheels in motion for her and to me, that's a warning sign (but I don't have experience with this; others are probably better to comment whether this is the 'standard' way of how things evolve in a polyamorous relationship). In my mind, there's a difference between wanting to sleep with 'other people' or with a 'specific person'. But it may be a semantic...

I do (sort of) get the hotwife thing. I read a book about a theory (Sperm Wars I think?) that rang true because in the beginning I did fight for my wife (she was interested in other guys first) and I notice my attraction and desire to have sex with her intensifies when I notice (or imagine) other guys finding her attractive or paying her attention. But I lock those thoughts and put the key somewhere where even I can't find it because I just don't really see anything good coming out of it as the risks seem crazy from my point of view (for us).


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## His_Response (Jun 14, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> The way risk and probabilities usually work is that even if you ‘accept’ something as a risk, it doesn’t stop posing a risk anymore.
> It’s still just a matter of time until it blows up but just that you both know that it’s a matter of time. It doesn’t make it less likely unfortunately.
> 
> Say you stand on top of a burning building. Whether you know that it is burning or not doesn’t change the probability of you going down with with, provided you keep standing.
> ...


Which is why we mitigate that risk through constant communication and keeping each other informed of how we feel about things. My wife and I often discuss how things are going with our partners, and we have access to each other's phone, so if there is any concern we check to see if that concern is valid. The fact that both of us are aware of this, and both of us are on the same page about the dangers, and both of us are not interested in starting a relationship with another person, helps mitigate the risk. I think some people confuse risk with certainty. 


-H.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> While I have absolutely no problem with those who are able to successfully live this lifestyle and keep their marriage strong and secure, I have to say I've SEEN what's out there on the swinging sites and I'm wondering if your wife is blind or just desperate.
> 
> Most of the husbands are absolutely *hideous* and I wouldn't do them for practice. I'm not kidding.
> 
> ...


I am highly impressed you went to those sites in the first place >


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## His_Response (Jun 14, 2018)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> While I have absolutely no problem with those who are able to successfully live this lifestyle and keep their marriage strong and secure, I have to say I've SEEN what's out there on the swinging sites and I'm wondering if your wife is blind or just desperate.
> 
> Most of the husbands are absolutely *hideous* and I wouldn't do them for practice. I'm not kidding.
> 
> ...


Nope, we totally agree with you there, She'sStillGotIt. So far we have found zero partners from swinging sites, and only two from attending our local swinging group. (And said group has literally a couple of hundred couples on the roster...) We find our partners from the real world, for the most part... 

-H.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> I doubt those stats exist, as they'd be very difficult to obtain, whereas statistics about traditional marriage are routinely collected. The nonmonogamous people contribute a small amount to the standard stats, but there is no way to parse them further that I'm aware of. However, given that nonmonogamous people are as (or more) happy and healthy than monogamous people, I would expect that they experience similar (or lower) rates of divorce.


But how can you not see that that's nothing but a self-selected group of people? The articles you linked to suffer from heavy survivorship bias: the ones who didn't make it, will not be reporting or participating in studies which asks *current* non-monogamous couples how happy/satisfied they are.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> While I have absolutely no problem with those who are able to successfully live this lifestyle and keep their marriage strong and secure, I have to say I've SEEN what's out there on the swinging sites and I'm wondering if your wife is blind or just desperate.
> 
> Most of the husbands are absolutely *hideous* and I wouldn't do them for practice. I'm not kidding.
> 
> ...


Yeah, there are a lot of ugly people on the swinger sites (as on every dating site, too). Most of my neighbors and coworkers are just as bad, though, and the people I see when I'm out shopping are often even worse. I wouldn't do them, either! As in real life, you tend to attract similar people, so the uglies are bumping uglies with _other_ uglies, and the fit and fabulous are finding _their_ counterparts. There is also a very large contingent of young, fit, and willing single men, if that's what you're looking for. And they're not looking for a relationship. His wife may be more like a kid in a candy shop, and nowhere near blind or desperate.


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## His_Response (Jun 14, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> What were those? (If you don't mind me asking.) Sharing your wife or experiencing different women yourself or experiencing a particular woman?
> 
> I am not certain one can say it still didn't come from her though: the fact is that it was a *particular person* that set the wheels in motion for her and to me, that's a warning sign (but I don't have experience with this; others are probably better to comment whether this is the 'standard' way of how things evolve in a polyamorous relationship). In my mind, there's a difference between wanting to sleep with 'other people' or with a 'specific person'. But it may be a semantic...
> .


My fantasies involved me sharing my wife. I actually had fantasies about that for about six years before this possibility ever came up. (I know how long it was because I used to blog about it, anonymously...) I never shared those thoughts, though, as I thought my wife would be disgusted with the idea. (And we talked about it later... and she confirmed that, during that period, she would not have even come close to considering it... at the time, sex to her was something she just didn't want. She felt too sick and was in too much pain... the thyroid gland can really mess a person up if it's not working correctly.)

As regards that particular person, I am not concerned. I know him too well... and she knows him too well... he is 'fun' for sex, but he would be a terrible husband. They are not in contact anymore. 

-H.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> I'm now 54 and while I'd like to think I'm still a stud-horse, my expanding waistline and increasing interest in sitting on the couch watching The Walking Dead says otherwise.


I hope you are just speaking for you, because we are same age, and in my age group/friend group, I am the man. But that is not saying much, so many guys have really let themselves go.

All kidding aside, her GF's are super jealous of our whole relationship. They all complain about no sex or bad sex, and she just smiles and says, "that must be terrible".


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> None of the excerpts you quoted are about breakup incidence of monogamous vs non monogamous couples. They are about happiness etc. I don't really doubt that.


There are no statistics that I am aware of that would be reliable. There is a broad spectrum of couples in various circumstances. I think if you break down the people who got involved because they are using it as a way to fix something in their relationship the rate of failure is much higher than "vanilla relationships". If you look at couples who came into it with strong happy marriages the rate of failure is probably better, but again this is breaking out the people who shouldn't have been pursuing is to begin with, just like if you took all the traditional marriages which started out with issues out of the general stats they failure rate would go way down. So it's hard to compare. 

Another misconception people probably have is that swinging or involving other people is a major part of the sex lives of swingers, for most it is probably less than 5% of their sex lives, so the focus is always on the primary relationship. Open relationships are very different than couples who swing together as your not doing it together you're really married people who act single from time to time. We don't have relationships with women we hookup with in fact our approach is it is really something we only do on vacation. There has only been 3 women within 100 miles of our home, the rest have been while on vacation around the world. 

It would be disingenuous for me not to say there are a lot of potential pitfalls. But really the success rate is based on the people doing it for the right reasons and couple being 100% in sync on the rules and communication there is no assuming on the part of either member of the couple, if there is any question you discuss.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

His_Response said:


> My fantasies involved me sharing my wife. I actually had fantasies about that for about six years before this possibility ever came up. (I know how long it was because I used to blog about it, anonymously...) I never shared those thoughts, though, as I thought my wife would be disgusted with the idea. (And we talked about it later... and she confirmed that, during that period, she would not have even come close to considering it... at the time, sex to her was something she just didn't want. She felt too sick and was in too much pain... the thyroid gland can really mess a person up if it's not working correctly.)
> 
> As regards that particular person, I am not concerned. I know him too well... and she knows him too well... he is 'fun' for sex, but he would be a terrible husband. They are not in contact anymore.
> 
> -H.


So you had the cuckold fantasy thing going on? I totally don't get that, so I believe that is why I can't understand the rest. What you find titillating would make me seriously want to put a bullet in my head.
If you and your wife are happy, good for you. It's not for me. I see lots of negatives to the swinging, and few positives.
I personally never enjoyed the "single life" that much.... I like learning one person and just going to bed and having a relaxing, highly enjoyable, loving, intimate experience with my wife who knows what I like and likewise, vs. boinking someone new and not so great and going away dissatisfied and feeling like a jerk.


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## His_Response (Jun 14, 2018)

Evinrude58 said:


> So you had the cuckold fantasy thing going on? I totally don't get that, so I believe that is why I can't understand the rest. What you find titillating would make me seriously want to put a bullet in my head.
> If you and your wife are happy, good for you. It's not for me. I see lots of negatives to the swinging, and few positives.
> I personally never enjoyed the "single life" that much.... I like learning one person and just going to bed and having a relaxing, highly enjoyable, loving, intimate experience with my wife who knows what I like and likewise, vs. boinking someone new and not so great and going away dissatisfied and feeling like a jerk.


To clarify, the 'cuckold fantasy' is not an accurate description. (There is nothing in the (modern) cuckold fantasy world that turns me on... and there is probably as many different 'versions' of that world as there are couples involved. The modern understanding of cuckold involves things like denial of sex, the woman's lover being considered superior to her husband, and a whole range of things that I won't go into... definitely not my cup of tea.)

My fantasies involved sharing my wife, or my wife being seduced. But those were fantasies. There's a difference in what I would want/allow, and what I fantasize about.

For me, the one thing I enjoy is seeing my wife lost in sexual bliss. Whether that is through me (which it is, 99% of the time), or through another man, are both exciting to me. Sexually pleasing my wife is the biggest turn-on in the world to me. In regards to other women, I enjoy the sex from the sex point of view; new can be fun, different can be fun. But I don't encourage this kind of exploration for most couples. As has been noted multiple times now, very few couples have that certain combination of factors that can allow this to work, and even then, they have to be extremely careful, and there are no guarantees.


-H.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> But how can you not see that that's nothing but a self-selected group of people? The articles you linked to suffer from heavy survivorship bias: the ones who didn't make it, will not be reporting or participating in studies which asks *current* non-monogamous couples how happy/satisfied they are.


Do you have a way to identify, contact, and elicit participation from formerly non-monogamous couples? Besides, they are comparing to *current* monogamous couples (and I believe they chose couples from each group that had similar relationship durations), so in that respect, the comparison is valid.

To get what you want, they'd have to identify, contact, and elicit participation from formerly monogamous couples as well, to provide a valid basis of comparison. That's easier (since the large majority of defunct couples will have been monogamous).


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> Do you have a way to identify, contact, and elicit participation from formerly non-monogamous couples? Besides, they are comparing to *current* monogamous couples (and I believe they chose couples from each group that had similar relationship durations), so in that respect, the comparison is valid.
> 
> To get what you want, they'd have to identify, contact, and elicit participation from formerly monogamous couples as well, to provide a valid basis of comparison. That's easier (since the large majority of defunct couples will have been monogamous).


Ok, then perhaps looking at it another way: given that 4% of couples overall are non-monogamous, one could actually deduce that the failure rate is 96%. 
Perhaps failure rate is wrong...but the utility of it, it's very simple: if this was a model that had real utility in the real world, the rate would be *significantly* above 4%.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BluesPower said:


> I hope you are just speaking for you, because we are same age, and in my age group/friend group, I am the man. But that is not saying much, so many guys have really let themselves go.
> 
> All kidding aside, her GF's are super jealous of our whole relationship. They all complain about no sex or bad sex, and she just smiles and says, "that must be terrible".


Yes I am just speaking for myself. 

However even then, compared to other 54 year old men, I am probably in at least the 85th or higher percentile on vigor and virility. 

But I can tell I am not the same as I was even 5 years ago. 

In some ways I am bummed and heartbroken at my declining virility and opportunity. 

But in other ways it is kind of a relief. 

10 years ago I could have never remained with a post menopausal woman with a dwindling libido. 

Today I vascilate between thinking I'll be fine with it vs trying to salvage what few years of sexual adventure I may have left.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Ok, then perhaps looking at it another way: given that 4% of couples overall are non-monogamous, one could actually deduce that the failure rate is 96%.
> Perhaps failure rate is wrong...but the utility of it, it's very simple: if this was a model that had real utility in the real world, the rate would be *significantly* above 4%.


No, your math is completely bogus, as are your conclusions. I did find an explanation of why non-monogamous couples may divorce at a lower rate, and it makes sense based on my experiences.



> ... the reasons swingers don't file for divorces in comparison to their monogamous peers are the traits which determine happiness and flexibility in their mental health. They have an abstract thinking capacity in addition to creativity and adaptability to changing circumstances. The sex lives of the swingers are undoubtedly more flexible if compared with the monogamous couples, in terms of sex.
> 
> According to some renowned therapists specializing in both swingers and monogamous couples' relationship issues, swingers do not fear [MbH: as they openly have permission to have sex with others], so they do not cheat. Obviously, the other group (i.e., monogamous couples) fear, so they cheat on their spouses. [MbH: because they can't get permission, they cheat]
> 
> Regarding fear, monogamous couples are victims of the toxic jealousy trap. This trap entails that any particular gesture or behavior may lead to a full-fledged affair, resulting into complete breakage of relationships.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> Ok, then perhaps looking at it another way: given that 4% of couples overall are non-monogamous, one could actually deduce that the failure rate is 96%.
> Perhaps failure rate is wrong...but the utility of it, it's very simple: if this was a model that had real utility in the real world, the rate would be *significantly* above 4%.


Not necessarily.

Like those of us that have experienced nonmogamy have been saying all throughout this thread - most people simply aren't cut out for it and have no want for it. 

And I certainly have not observed or experienced anything anywhere even remotely close to a 96% failure rate.

I think like 75% of all internet statistics, you pulled that number out the rear of your behind on the spot.

Most people simply do not want to swing. Most want a traditional exclusive relationship. 

Even if monogamous marriage continues to have a 50% failure rate and it gets proven that nonmonogamous have a much much less failure rate , most people will continue to take their chances with monogamy.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> Ok, then perhaps looking at it another way: given that 4% of couples overall are non-monogamous, one could actually deduce that the failure rate is 96%.
> Perhaps failure rate is wrong...but the utility of it, it's very simple: if this was a model that had real utility in the real world, the rate would be *significantly* above 4%.


I disagree.

Most people simply do not want to swing and would prefer to be in a monogamous relationship.

I think even if it were proven beyond a doubt that open marriage/swinging etc greatly reduced the likelihood of divorce, I think the vast majority of people would still choose to take their chances with traditional marriage.

As all of us that have actually experienced swinging have been saying throughout this thread, it is not for most people.

Most people simply do not want to.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Ok, then perhaps looking at it another way: given that 4% of couples overall are non-monogamous, one could actually deduce that the failure rate is 96%.
> Perhaps failure rate is wrong...but the utility of it, it's very simple: if this was a model that had real utility in the real world, the rate would be *significantly* above 4%.


I guess I see where you're going with this, putting the lifestyle relationships in the mix with the general population. I think the idea originally was percentage of the 4% fail as opposed the what percent of the 96% fail, but yes in general if every relationship tried existing in some level of lifestyle/swinging/open relationship then yes the failure rate would be very very high. 

People who are consensually non-monogamous are wired differently than others which is why it is so hard for people to understand and why the 96% should never try it. For us sex and love are separate, sex doesn't necessarily involve emotions, we get the emotional fulfillment from other aspects of our relationship, sex is fun, pleasurable and exciting. We view sex as something to be creative with neither of us think of sex as a way to feel close or affectionate or connected so when others are involved we don't place an emotional value to it either. 

The other thing I would point out again yes a lot of couples in the lifestyle are some of the closest happiest couples you'll meet, but that is not because they are in the lifestyle, don't confuse that I think study's that show that don't take into account that the successful lifestyle couples were very close and very happy before so comparing the two doesn't work for me, I personally don't believe in a correlation between lifestyle participation and happiness I think really happy lifestyle couples would be happy regardless.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> Yes I am just speaking for myself.
> 
> However even then, compared to other 54 year old men, I am probably in at least the 85th or higher percentile on vigor and virility.
> 
> ...


You know, you have done a lot of stuff that other have not, but I think that you are giving up too easily on some of this stuff. 

Just my opinion, but the talks we have had I just get that vibe. 

For me, I know I am in a different place than you are, but I am almost into my younger parting form. No, I don't drink as much, but I am as good once as I ever was so to speak. 

Example, at this pool party that GF and I were at, some of the people were just duds, most in fact. 

I just could not believe that these people would even bother to come hang out if all they were going to do is sit. Me and the other musicians and like minded people partied our butts off. Coincidently, the hostess made sure to tell my GF, and I can't believe she used these words, that the next party was for the cool people only. I thought that was super funny. 

Myself, I intend to do down swinging, I figure I got a few more good years left where I can party like a rock star....


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

I appreciate the lifestylers coming here and giving us insight into their relationships. It must be hard to open yourself to such scrutiny but yet they've done it while being respectful to our marriage style. 

Do any of you lifestylers have physical touch as your primary love language? I am trying to understand what the primary roadblock is for me mentally when trying to imagine myself in the lifestyle. I assume it is some sort of insecurity that marriage vows allow me to avoid. I stumble immediately thinking about me having sex with another woman while still being happily married to my wife. It just doesn't work in my brain but your spouse is happy as is mine so I think we've picked the lifestyle that works for each of us.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

PigglyWiggly said:


> I appreciate the lifestylers coming here and giving us insight into their relationships. It must be hard to open yourself to such scrutiny but yet they've done it while being respectful to our marriage style.
> 
> Do any of you lifestylers have physical touch as your primary love language? I am trying to understand what the primary roadblock is for me mentally when trying to imagine myself in the lifestyle. I assume it is some sort of insecurity that marriage vows allow me to avoid. I stumble immediately thinking about me having sex with another woman while still being happily married to my wife. It just doesn't work in my brain but your spouse is happy as is mine so I think we've picked the lifestyle that works for each of us.


Good points I think. 

But don't you think some people just cannot wait to come down on people that swing. I have never "been in the lifestyle" personally, just some minor experiences at different times, but with the right woman or that right relationship, I think it could be fun. 

I don't really understand why people get so uptight about it, not you but others. No one is forcing anyone to swing or not swing, it is a personal choice. A choice that is up to the couples that are involved. 

Now, with my current GF, no. She is not into it and if she is not I am fine with that. Our sex life is so outstanding that I don't really have much desire to be with other women anyway. 

But then, my GF is an outstanding woman, totally beautiful, totally sexy, totally loving. It is unlike any relationship that I have ever been in. No way I am going to screw this up. She likes monogamy so I like monogamy. She is very into keeping me to herself and showing me off, not like a toy but just so happy that we found each other. 

If I had met another woman before her that was more open sexually I could see myself being involved with some of this. 

It really depends on the people involved and the relationship as a whole.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

PigglyWiggly said:


> I appreciate the lifestylers coming here and giving us insight into their relationships. It must be hard to open yourself to such scrutiny but yet they've done it while being respectful to our marriage style.
> 
> Do any of you lifestylers have physical touch as your primary love language? I am trying to understand what the primary roadblock is for me mentally when trying to imagine myself in the lifestyle. I assume it is some sort of insecurity that marriage vows allow me to avoid. I stumble immediately thinking about me having sex with another woman while still being happily married to my wife. It just doesn't work in my brain but your spouse is happy as is mine so I think we've picked the lifestyle that works for each of us.


Physical touch is my primary love language but I don't know if that really has anything to do with it. 

Like I said in my post above, most people are simply not interested in swinging and don't really want to have anything to do with it. 

I don't know if it's fair to say that you have a "roadblock" or whether it's just not where you want to be.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> Physical touch is my primary love language but I don't know if that really has anything to do with it.
> 
> Like I said in my post above, most people are simply not interested in swinging and don't really want to have anything to do with it.
> 
> I don't know if it's fair to say that you have a "roadblock" or whether it's just not where you want to be.


ahh thanks for that info. I like to push my boundaries and at least entertain the idea of swinging/open marriage as a thinking exercise. I assume you are right and it's just not what I want at this stage of my marriage. Thanks for responding!


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## His_Response (Jun 14, 2018)

PigglyWiggly said:


> I appreciate the lifestylers coming here and giving us insight into their relationships. It must be hard to open yourself to such scrutiny but yet they've done it while being respectful to our marriage style.
> 
> *Do any of you lifestylers have physical touch as your primary love language?* I am trying to understand what the primary roadblock is for me mentally when trying to imagine myself in the lifestyle. I assume it is some sort of insecurity that marriage vows allow me to avoid. I stumble immediately thinking about me having sex with another woman while still being happily married to my wife. It just doesn't work in my brain but your spouse is happy as is mine so I think we've picked the lifestyle that works for each of us.



I'm honestly not sure of the answer, as I haven't looked into the love language definitions very deeply, but I would have to think that for me, yes, physical touch is definitely high up there, if not primary. 

I don't think there is a roadblock, per se. What I mean is, when I was younger I don't think I would have been able to handle my wife being with another man. At least, I can't imagine it. I had no interest or fantasy in that direction. My fantasies about it, and my willingness to open myself up to it, came about primarily because of how long I have loved my wife, and how close a connection I share with her. We have been together for almost 30 years... married for almost 29 of that. My wife and I know each other so well that we often text each other the same message at the same moment... or one of us will start talking about something the other was just thinking about. I can gauge her mood just by a look... and she does the same to me. She often will know something is bothering me even before I have started to realize it myself. It's because we both care about the other, very much. We rarely do anything without considering how our mate will feel about it.

So when my wife opened up to me that she had desires for the freedom to just **** someone, I didn't take it as something personal. It wasn't a rejection of me, or a commentary on my skills in bed; it was simply a response to a feeling. I've had my own desires that way... meeting a woman that just has that certain combination of attraction factors that speak to the animal side of me. (I keep those desires in check, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't feel them.) I'd be the first to admit that it's an ongoing adventure, though.


-H.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

His_Response said:


> I'm honestly not sure of the answer, as I haven't looked into the love language definitions very deeply, but I would have to think that for me, yes, physical touch is definitely high up there, if not primary.
> 
> I don't think there is a roadblock, per se. What I mean is, when I was younger I don't think I would have been able to handle my wife being with another man. At least, I can't imagine it. I had no interest or fantasy in that direction. My fantasies about it, and my willingness to open myself up to it, came about primarily because of how long I have loved my wife, and how close a connection I share with her. We have been together for almost 30 years... married for almost 29 of that. My wife and I know each other so well that we often text each other the same message at the same moment... or one of us will start talking about something the other was just thinking about. I can gauge her mood just by a look... and she does the same to me. She often will know something is bothering me even before I have started to realize it myself. It's because we both care about the other, very much. We rarely do anything without considering how our mate will feel about it.
> 
> ...


ahh this is what I suspected. You were like me at one point but have now moved on to a different stage. I may very well do the same but as you said, i can't see it right now. I applaud your marriage for giving you the confidence to not freak out when your wife expressed her desires. I am too insecure for that at this stage though I feel I have a healthy and happy marriage. 
Thanks for your response!!


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## His_Response (Jun 14, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> Good points I think.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


Please don't take this as a negative, but that is exactly how I would describe my wife... for the first 24 years of our marriage.  She never even hinted that she could ever consider being with anyone else... and in fact she always was adamant that (for instance) porn was bad, swingers were bad, etc. etc. A lot of that came from what society made her feel was acceptable, and from what she thought she should be like as a wife/gf.

In her case, once she realized that she could truly tell me all of her 'dirty secrets' without fearing my judgement, she was willing to admit that she had always had 'naughty' desires... and that she had liked porn since before we met.

I'm not saying that this is the case for anyone else... what I am saying is, we should never assume we know the inner person 100%. They might just surprise us.  I know my wife certainly surprised the hell out of me.


-H.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

PigglyWiggly said:


> ahh this is what I suspected. You were like me at one point but have now moved on to a different stage. I may very well do the same but as you said, i can't see it right now. I applaud your marriage for giving you the confidence to not freak out when your wife expressed her desires. I am too insecure for that at this stage though I feel I have a healthy and happy marriage.
> Thanks for your response!!


Perhaps thinking in terms of "stages" may be one way to look at it but I don't think many people will get to a swinging stage.

I too was completely traditional and had no interest for the 1st ten years of our marriage. 

After the 10 year and two kids mark, we got to a point of, "why not?"

By then we were secure in our careers, we had our two kids. We had great communication and respect and compassion for each other, and we didn't have any moral or religious convictions against it. 

We talked about it a long time and did a lot of research and looking into it and decided to give it a try. It worked for us.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> Perhaps thinking in terms of "stages" may be one way to look at it but I don't think many people will get to a swinging stage.
> 
> I too was completely traditional and had no interest for the 1st ten years of our marriage.
> 
> ...


Thanks! At this time, I don't think I'll ever go down that path but I don't say never. In our youth I told my wife that she was the last person on Earth that i'd ever marry....and we see how that worked out


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

PigglyWiggly said:


> Thanks! At this time, I don't think I'll ever go down that path but I don't say never. In our youth I told my wife that she was the last person on Earth that i'd ever marry....and we see how that worked out


It's not something anyone should ever consider lightly. I think the way @inmyprime approached the 96% v. 4% analysis has great utility for people considering it. Before taking any first steps people should really think long and hard to honestly determine if their relationship is wired to be in the 4%. You don't want to find out you're in the 96% by going from initial idea to acting on it without a careful approach.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

happyhusband0005 said:


> It's not something anyone should ever consider lightly. I think the way @inmyprime approached the 96% v. 4% analysis has great utility for people considering it. Before taking any first steps people should really think long and hard to honestly determine if their relationship is wired to be in the 4%. You don't want to find out you're in the 96% by going from initial idea to acting on it without a careful approach.


uuh yeah I don't see me ever being in the 4% BUT I like to have info if that time comes.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

happyhusband0005 said:


> It's not something anyone should ever consider lightly. I think the way @inmyprime approached the 96% v. 4% analysis has great utility for people considering it. Before taking any first steps people should really think long and hard to honestly determine if their relationship is wired to be in the 4%. You don't want to find out you're in the 96% by going from initial idea to acting on it without a careful approach.


My interpretation of what @inmyprime was saying was that 96% of the 4% of couples fail. 

I did not interpret him as saying 4% of couple swing and 96 % don't.

I thought he was saying 96% of swinging couple's marriages fail.

I completely disagree with and dispute that statistic.

Perhaps he can clarify which he meant.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> My interpretation of what @inmyprime was saying was that 96% of the 4% of couples fail.
> 
> I did not interpret him as saying 4% of couple swing and 96 % don't.
> 
> ...


Yah I took it to mean if 100% of all couples tried swinging then 96% would fail which is probably quite accurate.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

happyhusband0005 said:


> Yah I took it to mean if 100% of all couples tried swinging then 96% would fail which is probably quite accurate.


That would depend on the definition of 'fail' then.

If the definition is it wasn't for them and so they moved on and didn't do it anymore, that would be one thing.

If the definition of fail is major marital catastrophes and divorce etc, then that would be rediculous.


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## His_Response (Jun 14, 2018)

Married but Happy said:


> Yeah, there are a lot of ugly people on the swinger sites (as on every dating site, too). Most of my neighbors and coworkers are just as bad, though, and the people I see when I'm out shopping are often even worse. I wouldn't do them, either! As in real life, you tend to attract similar people, so the uglies are bumping uglies with _other_ uglies, and the fit and fabulous are finding _their_ counterparts. There is also a very large contingent of young, fit, and willing single men, if that's what you're looking for. And they're not looking for a relationship. His wife may be more like a kid in a candy shop, and nowhere near blind or desperate.



Just wanted to comment on this one.  Pretty accurate in the summary; in our local swinger community there is a large number of people that are (shall we say) of middle-level attractiveness, physically. My wife is definitely in the 'beautiful people' category... at 50+ years old, she still gets hit on daily by guys that are her son's age. She's one of those people that its difficult to guess her age... most guys think she's in her 30's. She's certainly not desperate... 

I find it funny the commentary that was going on earlier about swinger couples... as if the commenters actually knew many swinger couples and could have a sample cross section to compare notes. *lol* Unless you're active in the swinger community, or join the web sites for swingers and can actually see their photos, you really can't claim to know or compare.

Having been in the lifestyle for several years now, I still would hesitate to try to make any such claim. I've met couples of every level of attractiveness (physically), and there is no pattern that I can see. If anything, more often I find that couples tend to match up, somewhat... a good looking man married to a good looking woman, etc. The swingers in our area tend to be more towards middle age (40+), with fewer couples being younger. 

As for me, nope, I'm definitely no George Clooney. Or Brad Pitt. But then my wife doesn't find those guys attractive... they aren't her type. Chris Hemsworth, however... that guy has a free pass. *smirk* Women seem to find me attractive enough, though. Perhaps it's my personality. I've been told I'm handsome... I just never believe it. I do work out, however, and at 52 I'm in the best shape of my life. I started seriously working out (lifting and cardio) about 5 years ago, so the stomach is in check, the arms and shoulders are looking pretty good, and I can admit to myself that yeah, I don't look bad at all. 


-H.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

These threads unfortunately rarely take off; most TAM members have been cheated on at one time or another and talking or being turned on by swinging lifestyle must for them be a little bit like trying to discuss your favourite vineyards/wines at AA meetings.
It’s always going to be a touchy subject.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

His_Response said:


> Please don't take this as a negative, but that is exactly how I would describe my wife... for the first 24 years of our marriage.  She never even hinted that she could ever consider being with anyone else... and in fact she always was adamant that (for instance) porn was bad, swingers were bad, etc. etc. A lot of that came from what society made her feel was acceptable, and from what she thought she should be like as a wife/gf.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It’s not just that we don’t know the inner person in our partner; we often don’t even know the inner person inside ourselves.
That’s partly a reason why I would be hesitant going down that road as I honestly would not be able to assess to which category I would belong (to the 4% or the 96%; odds are, it’s unlikely I’m in the 4% and even less likely that my wife would also be in the 4%).

I understand exactly why you are describing: loving your partner so much that the desire for them to be happy (by allowing them to sleep with someone else) supersedes your own ego (overcoming with pain and jealousy). I do also enjoy observing my wife as if not from my own perspective, but as if from an objective, independent perspective, removed from my ego self, and observing her sex drive having an independent life of its own, disconnected from me (if that makes any sense. It probably doesn’t). I noticed those feelings also form with age (I’m 38 and she’s 36) and I never felt them just a few years ago. Maybe it’s some kind of age/relationship maturity/boredom thing? I would prefer for it to go away though, wherever it came from.
Also she’s not really that person: she looks with disgust at me if I joke about it. (Fair enough).

Btw you mentioned there were bumps along the road at the beginning: what were those? (Again, if you don’t mind me asking).




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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Married but Happy said:


> Yeah, there are a lot of ugly people on the swinger sites (as on every dating site, too). Most of my neighbors and coworkers are just as bad, though, and the people I see when I'm out shopping are often even worse. I wouldn't do them, either! As in real life, you tend to attract similar people, so the uglies are bumping uglies with _other_ uglies, and the fit and fabulous are finding _their_ counterparts. There is also a very large contingent of young, fit, and willing single men, if that's what you're looking for. And they're not looking for a relationship. His wife may be more like a kid in a candy shop, and nowhere near blind or desperate.


Any time a thread pops up on the site about swinging/open marriage etc, the first wave of attacks is usually in regards to cheating or divorce etc. 

The second wave usually strikes at the attractiveness, or more specifically to the lack there of, of the swinging community itself and that all of the swingers are fat and ugly and what not. 

This has occurred on schedule with this thread as well and now there have been a few posters striking at the physical looks of the swinging community. 

Well here's the thing - how many of you walk into a grocery store after work and want to have sex with everyone you see at the store?? 

How about pumping gas at Quick Trip? How at the shopping mall or farmer's market or anywhere people gather? 

Swingers are simply members of society and their spectrum of beauty ranges through the same spectrum of that of the rest of society. Some are hot and attractive. Many are just so-so. Lots are average. a few are drop dead gorgeous. some are butt-ugly. Just like you would see in a crowded mall or grocery store. 

There's kind of this myth that swinging is one big orgy and that everyone screws everyone. This is absolutely false. People hook up with those they find attractive that are also attracted to them. 

Many people they encounter whether online or IRL they will not find attractive and pass on. Of the ones they do find attractive, a certain percentage will not find them attractive. 


That is just life and is no different than in the regular world.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> These threads unfortunately rarely take off; most TAM members have been cheated on at one time or another and talking or being turned on by swinging lifestyle must for them be a little bit like trying to discuss your favourite vineyards/wines at AA meetings.
> It’s always going to be a touchy subject.
> 
> 
> ...


I do agree with this. 

I think anything outside of strict monogamy often triggers a good number of people and the first thing out of people's keyboards is how it will all relate to cheating and infidelity and the destruction of a marriages etc etc. 

I think it's fine and perhaps even prudent to discuss the potential risks and pitfalls as well as the benefits and pros. But one must also accept that most of the members are going to be pretty adamantly opposed to it and not see it as a legitimate marital pursuit. 

There are swinger forums that would be a much better place to discuss the nuts and bolts of swinging and to discuss the good times and benefits.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> There are swinger forums that would be a much better place to discuss the nuts and bolts of swinging and to discuss the good times and benefits.


But just so that it is out there that there are pros and benefits to swinging - It was a helluva lotta fun going to the clubs and parties and I had a lot of sex with a lot of hot and sexy ladies!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-D  ;-)


Let's not forget that :-D


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> But just so that it is out there that there are pros and benefits to swinging - It was a helluva lotta fun going to the clubs and parties and I had a lot of sex with a lot of hot and sexy ladies!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-D  ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Lets 

But I think that’s not the scenario that makes it attractive for the OP. It’s not as much the idea of having sex with many other ladies but the knowledge that his wife is doing it with many men.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

As someone who to date, has enjoyed a splendid 22 year monogamous sexual relationship with my wife. I'm fine with this being discussed here since this website is Talk About Marriage, not Talk About Monogamous Marriage.

Personally I've found this discussion interesting, as has my wife.

Funnily enough while discussing it this morning, my wife asked me (paraphrasing) if I would be willing to have sex with others and if I would like to. In response I told her sure I would be willing and I would like to since it could be fun, which I followed with asking her the same. Her response was that she would like to as well, because she thinks it would be fun and exciting.

Then the discussion led to her saying she fears she might be jealous of who I would be with. We also agreed we don't know how we would feel actually going there if opening Pandora's box. Plus if we did go there, we both expressed that neither of us would want the other present (watching or doing it together) for the sexual acts. It would be more a mutual date night kind of thing with others separately at the same time.

Then we had sex (which was fun), followed by breakfast and a shower before we got on with our day.

That said we've made no plans on this, haven't decided on anything, certainly aren't planning anything and haven't agreed to go there and do any of it.

Nonetheless it was an interesting discussion. One thing though we certainly wouldn't have had this discussion earlier in our relationship. Yet we've definitely changed along the way and are more comfortable and assured in our own being than we ever have been. The older we get, the more comfortable we are in being ourselves.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Personal said:


> One thing though we certainly wouldn't have had this discussion earlier in our relationship. Yet we've definitely changed along the way and are more comfortable and assured in our own being than we ever have been. The older we get, the more comfortable we are in being ourselves.


That is definitely a real thing. 

We also did not even consider it the first decade of our marriage. 

In time the trust and security was there. The openness to have heart to heart discussions was there. And the sense of "why not?" was eventually there. 

People change over time. Situations change over time. Values and goals and boundaries change over time. 

All couples and all marriages evolve and change and adapt over time. I'm not saying that all couples will swing eventually at all. But no one is ever the same people they were 10, 20, 30 years ago and neither is any marriage the same as it was decades earlier. 

Whether you end up swinging or not is up to you as a couple and doesn't really matter one way or another. 

But the fact that you are able to discuss these kinds of topics openly and without finger pointing and contempt and suspicion is priceless.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> But the fact that you are able to discuss these kinds of topics openly and without finger pointing and contempt and suspicion is priceless.


It's good we can talk like that, although for as long as I've known her, through different discussions I've always felt she could go there. Which as it turns out she's always thought the same of me as well. I also don't think it's an issue of morality for us either, since we have no problem with such things if agreed to.

That said we both beat (together) to a very different drum than most other people, with her being an INTJ while I am an ENTJ. I think one of the things that wowed each of us, was the fact we found in each other a way that most others aren't.

We discussed plenty more about it as well, even some of the mechanics of how we would do it if we did, plus when from the perspective of waiting till all of our kids are adults in a few years or just saying we're staying at another friends house etc.

Funnily enough it didn't phase me or her, about the idea of us being with others. We thought saying such things might bother the other, yet it was perfectly fine just like anything else.

Our conversation for the most part was more about practicalities rather than emotions which were mentioned. We even talked about what info we would share and more. Veto rights weren't mentioned though, yet we're not going there now so it's a moot point.

That said we're quite methodical though flexible, so planning and contingencies are a thing for us. So if we did plan to go there it would be well thought out, tested and adjusted along the way while knowing that emotions are a thing as well. At the end of the day there's a path to be prepared if we were going to travel down that road.

And I agree it doesn't matter one way or another what we do.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

So now the theoretical and practical aspects of this gets more interesting instead of just condemnation as happens sometimes. 

So good posts to @oldshirt and @Personal. 

While I believe that it is moot with my GF, who knows in the long run. I have opened her up to a lot so far but I really don't think at this stage of life she would want to go there. She is just getting used to having frequent regular great sex and she will probably be happy with that until we can't do it anymore whenever that is. 

But on topic, for me, I would always be more interested is a party situation, or a couple swap in the same room. To do it separately is not different than sleeping around which I have already done, and at some point for me, it gets old. I would be more interested in the group dynamic than any other options, but that is just me.


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## His_Response (Jun 14, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Lets
> 
> But I think that’s not the scenario that makes it attractive for the OP. It’s not as much the idea of having sex with many other ladies but the *knowledge that his wife is doing it with many men*.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Not quite.  It's the knowledge that my wife is being pleasured... whether that is by me or another, the fact that my wife is having fun sexually is what makes it work for me. I don't want my wife being with many men, simply from the perspective that I prefer this to remain a private adventure. 

IF she had the desire to be with several men, whether that be at once or one at a time, I wouldn't think any less of her. She's just not wired that way, though. Early in this adventure we found that she is really not comfortable at all in situations where someone might be watching... even a threesome doesn't feel 'right' to her. I'm a little more extroverted in that regard.


-H.


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## His_Response (Jun 14, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> It’s not just that we don’t know the inner person in our partner; we often don’t even know the inner person inside ourselves.
> That’s partly a reason why I would be hesitant going down that road as I honestly would not be able to assess to which category I would belong (to the 4% or the 96%; odds are, it’s unlikely I’m in the 4% and even less likely that my wife would also be in the 4%).
> 
> I understand exactly why you are describing: loving your partner so much that the desire for them to be happy (by allowing them to sleep with someone else) supersedes your own ego (*overcoming with pain and jealous*y). I do also enjoy observing my wife as if not from my own perspective, but as if from an objective, independent perspective, removed from my ego self, and observing her sex drive having an independent life of its own, disconnected from me (if that makes any sense. It probably doesn’t). I noticed those feelings also form with age (I’m 38 and she’s 36) and I never felt them just a few years ago. Maybe it’s some kind of age/relationship maturity/boredom thing? I would prefer for it to go away though, wherever it came from.
> ...


Thanks, inmyprime, I don't mind expanding on the bumps. The really short version is that my wife didn't understand at first that we needed to have completely open communication. There were some things she was keeping from me because she thought the might hurt my feelings. Nothing big... but she felt there were things that she didn't need to tell me because they didn't pertain to me. Logical... but... in this game, -any- secrets can lead to your mate wondering about what is happening, and if this adventure is to work, your mate should -never- need to wonder. Wondering leads to worry, which leads to those bumps in the road I was talking about.  Once we established that we both understood the need for 100% communication, everything started clicking, and we haven't had any issues since.

One thing I also wanted to mention is that really there hasn't been any pain or jealousy. Maybe we're wired differently, but my wife isn't jealous if I play, and I'm not jealous of her. The only thing I don't like about playing apart is that I miss out on seeing her being pleasured... that is one area I wish she were less shy. To make it up to me, she's made me several videos of her play, so that we can watch them later and enjoy. (Considering her shy nature, the fact that she's willing to make those videos for me tells me a LOT about how much she loves me. Not that she doesn't enjoy them too... but she knows how charged up I get seeing her that way, and I love her for making them for me.)

Really, the hardest part of letting her play alone is the safety concern. I've been her 'protector' (real or imagined) for almost three decades. Leaving her alone in a situation like that isn't easy.


-H.


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## His_Response (Jun 14, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> So now the theoretical and practical aspects of this gets more interesting instead of just condemnation as happens sometimes.
> 
> So good posts to @oldshirt and @Personal.
> 
> ...


Certainly a couple swap in the same room is my preference. The advantage is I think you tend to feed off of each other's arousal, you have the peace of mind knowing your partner is safe, and everything happens right there... there's no need to wonder about how things went, because you're there. Unfortunately finding a couple for this fun isn't nearly so easy.  My wife and I have found two couples that this worked out very nicely with, one couple that we wouldn't play with again, and had drinks with many wanna-be's that were simply a 'nope' from both of us. 


-H.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

His_Response said:


> Not quite.  It's the knowledge that my wife is being pleasured... whether that is by me or another, the fact that my wife is having fun sexually is what makes it work for me. I don't want my wife being with many men, simply from the perspective that I prefer this to remain a private adventure.
> 
> IF she had the desire to be with several men, whether that be at once or one at a time, I wouldn't think any less of her. She's just not wired that way, though. Early in this adventure we found that she is really not comfortable at all in situations where someone might be watching... even a threesome doesn't feel 'right' to her. I'm a little more extroverted in that regard.
> 
> ...


Yes me too (being more extrovert in that respect). Wife: not so much.
I know what you mean being happy about wife being pleasured etc; but for me the problem is, once i shift the perception to look at the situation from the other man's point of view (how much he would be having with my wife), it kind of kills the whole thing for me...and I want to strangle him (and maybe her). The majority of me, REALLY is disturbed by it and the minority (like 10%) turned on by the fact that it might turn the wife on. Now that 10% of me needs to STFU. :surprise:


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## His_Response (Jun 14, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Yes me too (being more extrovert in that respect). Wife: not so much.
> I know what you mean being happy about wife being pleasured etc; but for me the problem is, once i shift the perception to look at the situation from the other man's point of view (how much he would be having with my wife), it kind of kills the whole thing for me...and I want to strangle him (and maybe her). The majority of me, REALLY is disturbed by it and the minority (like 10%) turned on by the fact that it might turn the wife on. Now that 10% of me needs to STFU. :surprise:


Yes, and I think you feel like -most- married men (and women) do in that regard. I think it's perfectly natural to be fiercely territorial about our mates, and why I don't think this lifestyle is good for most couples. 

I honestly can't say why I'm able to deal with it; the few times I have been there to see my wife with another man, I've not had any second thoughts at all... no doubts at all... I was simply able to enjoy it in the moment. It would be wrong of me to say it's because of my trust in my wife, because that would be like saying other couples who can't do this don't trust their mates... which is certainly not true. 

Perhaps part of it is the amount of time we have been together, coupled with the knowledge that from a sexual perspective, my wife seems to be very much like me in compartmentalizing sex into a category of 'fun', and decoupling it somewhat from 'love'. (Although when it comes to what she and I have, love is certainly strong part of our sexuality.) Perhaps one thing that helps me, too, is that when I see her with another person, it doesn't make me question whether she is happy with what we have together; our own sex life is amazing. She is a very responsive lover, and without going into personal details, I know for a fact that she finds sex with me extremely satisfying, as I do with her. 

I hope that doesn't sound like bragging, but when you truly know someone intimately, when you really have learned what they like, what they don't, where to touch, or lick, when to slow down, or stop, how to sense where they are in that climb toward release, then you really can know that you are pleasing your partner. (And for me, pleasing my wife is a big part of what pushes my arousal higher, and I've made pleasuring her my focus ever since we got married... so I really do know her very well from that perspective.) Sorry, that's a bit long winded... just trying to give you an insight into my thinking.


-H.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

His_Response said:


> Thanks, inmyprime, I don't mind expanding on the bumps. The really short version is that my wife didn't understand at first that we needed to have completely open communication. There were some things she was keeping from me because she thought the might hurt my feelings. Nothing big... but she felt there were things that she didn't need to tell me because they didn't pertain to me. Logical... but... in this game, -any- secrets can lead to your mate wondering about what is happening, and if this adventure is to work, your mate should -never- need to wonder. Wondering leads to worry, which leads to those bumps in the road I was talking about.  Once we established that we both understood the need for 100% communication, everything started clicking, and we haven't had any issues since.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Wow. The one thing I will comment on: it strikes me that if she felt the need to hold something back from you, in spite of agreeing otherwise, then it’s logical to conclude that she is not completely wired the same way as you are perhaps. And that those encounters perhaps don’t mean the same to her, as they mean to you.

I also find it strange that she can’t have you in the room with her and the other person. If it’s something you both share, should she not feel ok actually sharing it? (After all, she is supposed to be getting her pleasure for your pleasure?)

Do you have an ‘action plan’ if she actually falls for someone else (despite agreements, boundaries or promises)?
There is an underlying assumption here that you feel you are still in control of her feelings or what sex/bonding hormones might do to her.

Maybe you are but maybe you are not? What happens if one day she finds sex with a particular male specimen just more interesting/exciting than with you?

I’m sure you have asked yourself these questions. Rationally, I can see how this all makes sense for you. But we also have a non-rational/primal part in us that we think we have control over but we really don’t.

Hope this doesn’t come across as judgementally: I have been pondering all these things myself (hypothetically) and I also come back to square one: have a cold beer or a shower instead  It’s playing with fire. Sexual instincts are bigger than us.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

His_Response said:


> Yes, and I think you feel like -most- married men (and women) do in that regard. I think it's perfectly natural to be fiercely territorial about our mates, and why I don't think this lifestyle is good for most couples.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




No, I do understand your thinking (and am not questioning it). I’m just wondering how confident one can be in understanding your partner’s thinking. And if her thinking or make up deviates from you in any way (more likely than not; since we are all individuals), how can you be confident to keep having control over the situation?

I may be off with this but your confidence with this could be rooted in the fact that you assume she thinks and feels exactly the same way as you do about the whole thing. We all make this mistake sometimes as humans: we typically find it hard to relate to a different mindset and all decisions and conclusions in our thoughts will be derived from how WE would be feeling or thinking, given a certain situation. 
What if the other person feels differently? Why would we start with the assumption that they don’t? Even if you discussed every little detail of it, words offer very limited means to express what we really feel.
Just don’t want you to be lead to false sense of security.

But I find it fascinating what people get up to!


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## His_Response (Jun 14, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Wow. The one thing I will comment on: it strikes me that if she felt the need to hold something back from you, in spite of agreeing otherwise, then it’s logical to conclude that she is not completely wired the same way as you are perhaps. And that those encounters perhaps don’t mean the same to her, as they mean to you.
> 
> I also find it strange that she can’t have you in the room with her and the other person. If it’s something you both share, should she not feel ok actually sharing it? (After all, she is supposed to be getting her pleasure for your pleasure?)
> 
> ...



Answers...

In regard to her holding back, you'd have to know her. My wife is a very independent woman, very strong; she came from an abusive family where she learned to keep things to herself, so not talking about things kind of became second nature to her. (Not a good thing, but it's something she works on... it's something she didn't really recognize about herself, but something I picked up on due to the differences in the family environments we grew up in.) And it wasn't something she at first realized was a withholding... in her mind, the things were inconsequential/unimportant; once she understood how important openness was, she adjusted her thinking about it and it's never been an issue since. 

I would agree, however, that my wife is wired a bit differently than me in regard to what she gets out of this. She doesn't have the somewhat voyeuristic streak that I do... but (and I hope this doesn't sound harsh) what she does have is an insecurity about her own attractiveness. All her life her mother told her she was 'nothing special', while her father... well let's just say it's a good things he's dead now. It doesn't matter that I assure her she's beautiful... she still has those seeds of doubt planted by her mother, and digging those out is something she's never been quite able to do. So one of the things (not the major thing, but it's a factor) she gets out of this is the assurance that she IS still sexually attractive to men, even much younger men, as she moves into her 50's. I know that might sound shallow to some... but none of us is perfect, and if this helps her push back at age, I don't mind. Now, all that being said, I think that factor is only about 5% of what pushes her in this direction... the rest of it is, like me, that she just loves sex.

About me being in the room; it's not that she can't share it with me, but her _preference_ is privacy. If I were concerned about us in that regard, we would keep it to same-room play only. The fact is, I'm secure enough in my trust of her to allow her to play alone. It's not something she demands... but she is extremely appreciative that I give her that option, and our return to each other afterwards is always hot and passionate.

Action plan: everything stops. That might not sound like it would do any good at that point, and you might be right. However the key is not letting it get to that point. One doesn't fall in love with someone in a moment... at least, not at our age. My wife and I love each other and are committed to staying together, so we both carefully monitor ourselves and each other, and if we see something that makes us even the slightest bit concerned about getting too close to a playmate, we stop it. That's where completely open communication comes into play; we have a habit of showing each other our conversations with people, because it helps both from the perspective of keeping our heads where they should be, and helping monitor where our partner's head is. (e.g. If I know my wife is going to read what I write to a playmate, I'm not going to slip into saying something that could lead to stronger feelings... e.g. 'love'. It works both ways...) This is why I personally think that younger people should not be in this lifestyle; when we're young, we tend to lead with the heart, and falling for someone is easier. When we get older, we tend to lead more with the mind, and I believe we're able to keep an eye on where our heart is going. Some would disagree... but until you're older, I think it's hard to imagine/understand.

Last question; what if she finds sex more fun with someone else. Frankly, that's entirely possible... but it's not as simple as someone being 'better' or 'more exciting'. Sex with someone else is in it's nature 'more exciting', because it's new, it's different... so it's going to have a wow factor from that perspective straight out of the gate. Whether it remains more exciting depends on the sexual compatibility with that other partner. As an example, the first guy my wife was with was EXTREMELY exciting for her. She felt a wild, animal pull towards him sexually, and the sex was just as wild and incredible as she had hoped it would be. From that perspective, he was MUCH more 'exciting' than sex with me. But that excitement isn't a reason to leave me. Why not? Because while he was wild and exciting, he was also not husband material. He tended to cheat on his girlfriends, he was bad with money, and rather unreliable even as a playmate. He was fun while he was around, but that was it. As for 'better'... I guess we'll see, if/when 'better' comes along. So far, my wife has been with a couple of guys that she tells me are 'as good' in bed as me... but that hasn't made her go back to them, or want to be with them more than me. A good marriage is not based on good sex. Good sex is a contributing factor to a good marriage, but if good sex is how you _define_ your marriage, then you're already in big trouble. 


-H.


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## His_Response (Jun 14, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> No, I do understand your thinking (and am not questioning it). I’m just wondering how confident one can be in understanding your partner’s thinking. And if her thinking or make up deviates from you in any way (more likely than not; since we are all individuals), how can you be confident to keep having control over the situation?
> 
> I may be off with this but your confidence with this could be rooted in the fact that *you assume she thinks and feels exactly the same way as you do about the whole thing*.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Actually, I make it a point not to assume anything.  That was actually one of the reasons I posted here initially... I wanted to be able to talk to others that are making this work, as I know that I don't know everything that is going on in my wife's mind. And I certainly don't think I have control over her... at least, no more than she has over me or what I might decide to do. 

I mean, I could certainly decide that I like one of my lovers better, and end my marriage... but why would I? (For instance, I have a lover right now that is 27 years old, sexy as hell, and we are very compatible sexually. I'm the major bread-winner in our family, so what's to stop me deciding to going with a younger woman?) What stops me is, I love my wife, we have a happy life together, kids together, a history of pleasing each other. I make her laugh... she entrances me with her beauty. We don't fight... we love to do things together, and we support each other always. We have a great marriage. So, yes, I could throw all that away for sex with a 27 year old, but why would I, when I have permission anyway? I'm smart enough to know that what I have with my wife is amazing and rare.

The same could be said from her perspective. Sure, she COULD throw everything away for some exciting new lover, but why would she, when she can have it all? She's a smart woman, too. 

As other's have noted, marriages that end tend to have problems. Whether you're in this lifestyle or not, it's very likely that if your marriage ends, it was headed there already. HOWEVER... as we've noted earlier, trying this lifestyle is not something one should do if you think it's going to help fix something in your marriage. My wife assures me that she's interested in this for fun, but if anything makes either of us uncomfortable, it stops... and that works for both of us.


-H.


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## Juanuno (Jun 20, 2018)

Im not in an open marriage but..

I was once in a relationship where we talked about it and began to test the waters.

Through various websites we communicated with men, women and couples and shared experiences via webcam.. that was all very fun. But something we did together.

Then we did it seperatley , on our own time as well as together.. all still good.

Then we decided maybe we could really start looking for potential candidates for a real meet .
Harder than it sounded at the moment, 
But we did start narrowing it down. 

Then she said she would feel awkward with me there.. i responded that i thought we were looking for a shared experience not for each of us to go do our own thing?..
Ok yes , she said i was right it was only that it would feel awkward atleast the first time, left me scratching my head but ok.

Well , i found out that she had given her number to a guy, according to her purely to exchange dirty pics through out the day.
I told her i was upset she did so without asking m3 if it was ok, all correspondence was supposed to take place on the website we used , which can be accessed through phone, so i wasnt sure what the point of exchange numbers was.

She apologized and said that would end.
2 months later i found it never ended, as far as i know there was never a meet... bit who knows , guy was 2 states away, close enough that if you really want it he would take the drive.. i guess ill never know

I never understood why though, we each had the green light to communicate wirh others through for the porpose of dirty chat and exchanging pics and short video clips.

And it was both our intentions to eventually allow for threesome or swap... suppos3dly we were just taking our time and making sure we found compatible people.

Yet she found the need to lie.

There were all sorts of rul3s , rules that anyone us could end things as soon as we felt it was too much.. yet turned out not so easy.
Love and lust are just as powerful i think.

I could argue in favor of the lifestyle that she just wasnt mature enough or of the right type.

But i think its some thing better left for fantast / role play /dirty talk between couples , atleast for me, i have no issues pretending but for real life i would never attempt it again. Because no matter how much i know her or me things have a higher potential to change when a third party starts to influence my thoughts and logic or hers


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Wow. The one thing I will comment on: it strikes me that if she felt the need to hold something back from you, in spite of agreeing otherwise, then it’s logical to conclude that she is not completely wired the same way as you are perhaps. And that those encounters perhaps don’t mean the same to her, as they mean to you.
> 
> I also find it strange that she can’t have you in the room with her and the other person. If it’s something you both share, should she not feel ok actually sharing it? (After all, she is supposed to be getting her pleasure for your pleasure?)


I think the first part here is pretty normal when people first get into it. It's is all new and strange and sometimes it takes a moment to realize that the other person is actually ok with it all. So sometimes people will hold something back at first because they are still processing feelings of I can't believe we are ok with this. When my wife and I had our first experience we were both shocked at how ok we were with it. 

The second part is fairly normal also, there is lots of reasons why. In the end if someone is going to do it you want it to be as good as possible. Sometimes women might fear being self conscious in the moment of enjoying it too much, they might feel like the other person might find it weird being watch, the turn on might be more for them without the spouse in the room because it feels naughtier. Bottom line is as long as the couple are both ok with the situation then whatever makes everyone most comfortable is what works. 

Lots of times a guy will watch his wife once or twice and then not really be interested in watching anymore. I was in the room for 1 of the 2 guys my wife was with, I actually think seeing it wasn't much of a turn on, I felt like my presence might be keeping her from being uninhibited because she was wondering what I was thinking. I think being in the next room knowing what was going on but not seeing it was more exciting in some way.


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## His_Response (Jun 14, 2018)

happyhusband0005 said:


> Lots of times a guy will watch his wife once or twice and then not really be interested in watching anymore. I was in the room for 1 of the 2 guys my wife was with, I actually think seeing it wasn't much of a turn on, I felt like my presence might be keeping her from being uninhibited because she was wondering what I was thinking. I think being in the next room knowing what was going on but not seeing it was more exciting in some way.


I hear you, happyhusband. When we first started into this, I had all sorts of fantasies and thoughts about a threesome, how hot it would be to see my wife with another man, etc. What I didn't think about was what I would be doing. *wry grin* Fast forward to present day, and my thoughts have changed about wanting a threesome. Especially since I now know my wife doesn't like to be 'watched', I think I'd probably be uncomfortable if I wasn't immediately involved in the sex. Doing a same-room couple swap is probably as close to 'watching' as I want to get, both for her comfort and mine.


-H.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

His_Response said:


> Certainly a couple swap in the same room is my preference. The advantage is I think you tend to feed off of each other's arousal, you have the peace of mind knowing your partner is safe, and everything happens right there... there's no need to wonder about how things went, because you're there. Unfortunately finding a couple for this fun isn't nearly so easy.  My wife and I have found two couples that this worked out very nicely with, one couple that we wouldn't play with again, and had drinks with many wanna-be's that were simply a 'nope' from both of us.
> 
> 
> -H.


We also found the couple thing very difficult. It always turned out my wife was into the other wife but didn't like the husband, or it would turn out the wife wasn't really into women, or I didn't like the woman or the people were just not a personality fit. We met a lot of couples we really liked and are still friends with but have never played with. Our big problem is we have a no play on first date rule with couples so we can discuss our thoughts before committing to any play, but we also don't really fool around close to home so multiple dates are hard to manage on a long weekend trip.


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## His_Response (Jun 14, 2018)

happyhusband0005 said:


> We also found the couple thing very difficult. It always turned out my wife was into the other wife but didn't like the husband, or it would turn out the wife wasn't really into women, or I didn't like the woman or the people were just not a personality fit. We met a lot of couples we really liked and are still friends with but have never played with. Our big problem is we have a no play on first date rule with couples so we can discuss our thoughts before committing to any play, but we also don't really fool around close to home so multiple dates are hard to manage on a long weekend trip.


Yes, we find it very difficult to find compatible couples, too. For most of the same reasons as you... aside from your wife being interested in women, that is. (That lusty side of me fantasizes about my wife being open to that, but she isn't... at all. She's had several very attractive women make passes at her, and she just can't go there. I asked her once about it, whether she would try it just to see what it was like, and her response was very logical; she asked me if I'd have sex with a man, just to try it... I got the point. *lol*)

We also have the 'no play on first date' rule, and have had a hard time finding compatible couples. We've really only found one couple that it worked well, and we've been with them a couple of times. Even that couple isn't a perfect match, though. Definitely not an easy thing... that's where single play is easier to arrange.


-H.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Juanuno said:


> Im not in an open marriage but..
> 
> I was once in a relationship where we talked about it and began to test the waters.
> 
> ...


You were wise to not pursue a further relationship with her (or at least not a swinging relationship with her)

Many people just simply "don't get it." Many people are too locked into the paradigm of either being with just one person or if you are going to be with more than one, then you have to sneak around and cheat etc etc. 

When we were in the lifestyle we had met two different couples on a couple different occasions and knew them both very superficially but enough to know their names etc.

Anyway, one night they went out and got to know each other and I assume at some point they had some play time together. 

Within a couple weeks we got an email from one of the husbands that within days/weeks of them getting together, his wife and the other husband were in a torrid affair and they both ended up leaving their spouses for the other. 

Here they were, two couples that could basically hook up whenever they wanted as couples, but those two couldn't grasp that concept at all and sneaked around and cheated and left their spouses for each other in a matter of weeks. 

Now yes, we can all assume that there were probably some underlying issues in both marriages...obviously. 

But my point here is many, perhaps most, people are not cut out to be swingers where everything is on the table between consenting adults. 

Their paradigm is to sneak and cheat behind their partner's back even if they are given a green light to have their fun out in the open. 

It doesn't make sense to me but it is a real thing for a whole lotta people.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Shifting gears a little bit and getting back to a general topic of open marriage/swinging etc is I think of the things that separates much of the swinging community from the garden variety traditionalist is that I think many swingers (I'm just using that term generically to encompass pretty much everyone that practices consensual nonmonogamy as a lifestyle choice) is that many swingers accept and recognize that people just naturally have many various attractions and desires and such throughout their lives and that it is normal and natural and does not mean that they love their spouse any less or that they are any less devoted to their spouse or their family unit. 


I think a lot of monogamists think that if they do everything they can to shut all that shyte down and batten down the hatches of the marriage as tight as they can, that some how all those attractions and desires will be shut down and somehow cease to exist.


Or the other alternative is for everyone to just grin and bear it as long as they can and have everyone be equally miserable. It's just something to endure. 


The extreme form of this is female circumcision and covering women in bedsheets from head to toe and not allowing them to get educations, jobs or leave the house without a blood-relative male escort. ……. along with castrating a male interloper that scews someone else's wife and stoning a female adulteress. 


I think many swingers see it as accepting that we all have some need for variety and novelty in our lives and that life long strict monogamy with only one person for our entire lives simply isn't realistic or even enjoyable. 


Rather than trying to just suck it up and bear it and make both people frustrated after decades of exclusivity, the swinging community recognizes that the yearning for variety and novelty is real and can be life-affirming and so they have heart-to-heart discussions on how to meet those needs as a couple while still maintaining the love and security and stability for their families. 


Are there risks? Sure. 


Strict monogamy carries risks too.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> Shifting gears a little bit and getting back to a general topic of open marriage/swinging etc is I think of the things that separates much of the swinging community from the garden variety traditionalist is that I think many swingers (I'm just using that term generically to encompass pretty much everyone that practices consensual nonmonogamy as a lifestyle choice) is that many swingers accept and recognize that people just naturally have many various attractions and desires and such throughout their lives and that it is normal and natural and does not mean that they love their spouse any less or that they are any less devoted to their spouse or their family unit.


I can understand that my spouse may find other people attractive and have desires that I can't meet. But for me, sex and emotions are tightly intertwined. If I had sex with someone else, my feelings would be part of that process. I would likely fall into that "crush" phase or whatever where you think everything that person does is awesome. I would likely begin thinking that being with this other person would be all rainbows and candy and that my spouse is holding me back.

I couldn't have sex with someone and it be as unemotional as getting a massage at the spa. When I go in for a back massage, I don't fall in love the masseuse. But if I had sex with her, my emotions would start to bond with her and it would affect the relationship I have with my spouse.

Since I feel that way, my emotions also make it impossible for me to accept my wife being with another man. Whether or not she would actually feel impersonal towards the guy, my emotions would flare up and I'd feel that she's falling in love with the other guy. So it would be a disaster on many levels.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

.…...and for us it was never about just "having-sex-with-others." In fact, the majority of the time we went out, we did not actually play with anyone. 

It was fun to get out away from the kids and be in an adult, sexually-charged environment around other positive, sexy people who were open and sex-positive even if we didn't end up having sex with them. 

One of my biggest draws for getting into the lifestyle was to be in an environment where I did not have to suppress my sexuality and only talk about my job and the kids and the house repairs we were working on. I wanted to be able to flirt and party and dance and sincerely compliment women and embrace their sexuality without getting sent to Human Resources for sensitivity training. 

I wanted to be me. 

I am a sexual being and I wanted to be sexual without having to hide it and be ashamed of it and I wanted to appreciate and admire other people's sexuality too. 

There are some swingers that feel like swinging is another form of sexuality along with heterosexuality and homosexuality etc. I don't know if I would go that far, but I do think that people that really embrace and accept consensual nonmonogamy and don't see it as something sinful or evil or don't automatically see it as destructive and that it is automatically a bad marriage are clearly in the small minority.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

wilson said:


> I can understand that my spouse may find other people attractive and have desires that I can't meet. But for me, sex and emotions are tightly intertwined. If I had sex with someone else, my feelings would be part of that process. I would likely fall into that "crush" phase or whatever where you think everything that person does is awesome. I would likely begin thinking that being with this other person would be all rainbows and candy and that my spouse is holding me back.
> 
> I couldn't have sex with someone and it be as unemotional as getting a massage at the spa. When I go in for a back massage, I don't fall in love the masseuse. But if I had sex with her, my emotions would start to bond with her and it would affect the relationship I have with my spouse.
> 
> Since I feel that way, my emotions also make it impossible for me to accept my wife being with another man. Whether or not she would actually feel impersonal towards the guy, my emotions would flare up and I'd feel that she's falling in love with the other guy. So it would be a disaster on many levels.




It's kind of like playing paintball. You get excited and your adrenaline is flowing and it is fun and invigorating and you do try to shoot other people while trying to avoid getting shot yourself. 


So in that sense you get a little uplift of your limbic system - but it is a game. It is not real combat. You know it is a game and while you have fun when your playing it. When the game is over, you go back home. 


Same thing with swinging. There are emotions. There is some bonding. It is fun and exciting. You do connect with someone. 



Then the game is over and you go back home. 


For many swingers the best part of the whole game is when you get home, you tear into each other with amazing passion and ferver. It's called reclaimation sex unless you've had it, it's hard to explain. 


Swinging is a game like paintball. You get some of the little bursts of adrenaline and horny feel good hormones - but it isn't the real thing. 


And everyone is in the game for it to be a game (or at least they should) and at the end of the game, everyone goes home.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> Shifting gears a little bit and getting back to a general topic of open marriage/swinging etc is I think of the things that separates much of the swinging community from the garden variety traditionalist is that I think many swingers (I'm just using that term generically to encompass pretty much everyone that practices consensual nonmonogamy as a lifestyle choice) is that .
> .
> .
> .
> ...


I know this is somewhat off topic...

Now based on this post, which is good BTW, help me understand why men and women stay in sexless marriages. 

I get that they can lose attraction to each other, and all of that. Some people are asexual or closet gay. I get that. Bla bla bla... 

Even my Ex W, who never really loved me, loved to screw me. She was not so stupid as to think that I hang around if we were not having sex. 

Now, I have never been in an actual swinging relationship, some spontaneous things before but nothing formal. 

I have been monogamous, I have been non-monogamous and I am back to mono again, which is all fine. 

But these people that put up with no sex, I just don't get it?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> .…...and for us it was never about just "having-sex-with-others." In fact, the majority of the time we went out, we did not actually play with anyone.
> 
> It was fun to get out away from the kids and be in an adult, sexually-charged environment around other positive, sexy people who were open and sex-positive even if we didn't end up having sex with them.
> 
> ...


Its interesting that you think you cant be sexual, not hide it or be ashamed it but be faithful to your wife at the same time. We are not ashamed of it at all, far from it, but we treasure our sexuality between each other. 
You can have this things in a good marriage. For us its far far better and deeper and more meaningful and more enjoyable when that intimacy isn't shared with others.

That just cheapens it and makes it less meaningful. Sex with the one you love is so good.


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## Bilbo115265 (Apr 24, 2018)

A long time ago my 2x and I was into swinging was the best we've had the thing was the guy on guy at first I wasn't into it but when i started it was a blast we did it 2/3 times a month


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BluesPower said:


> I know this is somewhat off topic...
> 
> Now based on this post, which is good BTW, help me understand why men and women stay in sexless marriages.
> 
> ...



If you are asking the swinger who has just laid it all out there that I want to be in an open and sexually charged environment where it is ok to have sex with a variety of people why some choose to be in sexless marriages...…. I can't help you. 

I have no idea. 

I couldn't live in a environment without sexuality and love and affection anymore than I could live in one without oxygen or food and water. 

And I really don't think anyone that was asexual or not at all sexually attracted to me would want to be around me either. 

I understand that gay guys want to get down with other dudes. 

I understand that lesbians want to get down with other chicks.

I understand that bisexuals can get down with both. 

I understand that swingers are good with getting down with other couples and having threesomes and what not with their partners. 

And I understand that monogamists want to only be with their partner one-on-one. 

But I will never for the life of me understand how someone can remain in a sexless marriage for year after year. Never.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> Its interesting that you think you cant be sexual, not hide it or be ashamed it but be faithful to your wife at the same time. We are not ashamed of it at all, far from it, but we treasure our sexuality between each other.
> You can have this things in a good marriage. For us its far far better and deeper and more meaningful and more enjoyable when that intimacy isn't shared with others.
> 
> That just cheapens it and makes it less meaningful. Sex with the one you love is so good.


You'll never fully understand or appreciate it and that is fine, most people don't. If I have to explain it, you wouldn't understand it anyway. 

And it's not that I can't be sexual with just my wife. We were a traditional couple for the first 10 years of our marriage and have been the last couple years as well. 

It's like belonging to a special interest club like a chess club or a physics club or a knitting club. You get to be around other people that have the same outlooks and values and interests and passions as you and you get to participate in that activity with other like minded people that have the same interests and passions. 

If you have a special interest group that you belong to; think of it like that but it is sex. 

And also, I know you and I disagree on the definition of "faithful," but we are faithful to each other. We have just had sex with other people at times and have done so together as a couple. It was a mutual activity that we did together as a couple; it wasn't unfaithful.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> Its interesting that you think you cant be sexual, not hide it or be ashamed it but be faithful to your wife at the same time. We are not ashamed of it at all, far from it, but we treasure our sexuality between each other.
> You can have this things in a good marriage. For us its far far better and deeper and more meaningful and more enjoyable when that intimacy isn't shared with others.
> 
> That just cheapens it and makes it less meaningful. Sex with the one you love is so good.


Diana, I love a lot of what you write, honestly. 

But you do understand that there are people in the world that think that sex does not have to be exclusive to marriage, right? 

Some people even have several girls/men that they see in a casual way, and it can all be above board. 

And some people don't, they have sex exclusively in a marriage. 

But good people can disagree about things like this...


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

rabbithabit said:


> we are not totally into open relationships but hubby will not get upset if one of his buddies comes on to me and gets it on with me in our bedroom or couch. he told me would not agree to strangers loving me or me doing it without him with me. so kinda a hybrid arrangement i think.


I'm not sure what kind of semantics you would require to call that an open relationship, but that fully meets my definition of one.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> That just cheapens it and makes it less meaningful. Sex with the one you love is so good.


Yes, I agree that sex with the one you love is so good. 

However I do disagree that being in the swinging lifestyle cheapens it or makes it any less meaningful at all. 

In fact I could make a good argument it makes it more meaningful and precious. 

She has been with guys younger, buffer, better looking, better hung and richer than me. Yet afterwards she would go home with me and then ride me like I was last man on earth. and she made her home and life with me and has never once indicated that she would be happier anywhere else. 

Likewise I have been with been with beautiful, hard-bodied women in their 20s (early 20s even) and my wife was the one I would go home with and make love to and hold next to me until the morning light and she was the one that I made my home and family and life with. 

We each have given each other the gift of passion and desire and variety of being able to enjoy other people's sexuality as well as enjoying our own marital sexuality. That is a rare and special gift that not many people in the world would ever consider. 

She is a rare and special snowflake and I always treated her as such.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> You were wise to not pursue a further relationship with her (or at least not a swinging relationship with her)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You could call it ‘not grasping the concept’. 
Or you could simply acknowledge that in the real world, this is what is more likely to happen than not. Why take the chance, betting that your partner is the exception?
As someone who usually is able to consistently take advantage of odds, I find THIS part puzzling.



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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

rabbithabit said:


> we are not totally into open relationships but hubby will not get upset if one of his buddies comes on to me and gets it on with me in our bedroom or couch. he told me would not agree to strangers loving me or me doing it without him with me. so kinda a hybrid arrangement i think.


That is well within the swinging spectrum. There is all different levels. Completely open relationships are less common than what you describe.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> Yes, I agree that sex with the one you love is so good.
> 
> However I do disagree that being in the swinging lifestyle cheapens it or makes it any less meaningful at all.
> 
> ...



I read a beautiful fable on a swinger website once that I think sums this up perfectly. 

You can look at this two ways. 

One is there is an elderly couple walking on the beach towards the setting sun holding hands and reflecting on their lives together and all of the things they have accomplished and all of the storms they have weathered together. And one of the things that they reflect back on and treasure is that they kept their love and intimacy between them and only them and that they remained exclusive onto each for the duration of their marriage. 

Meanwhile another similar couple is walking hand in hand towards the setting sun reflecting on their lives and in their reflections they cherished that they each did give each other the gift of exploring their sexualities and they did allow each other to experience pleasures and attentions of others and yet their love and faith in each other was strong enough that even though they had each touched others, they chose each other as their special someone and remained with each for each was the one they wanted to be with. 


Is either more right or more wrong than the other????

For many of you, couple #1 is the couple that you would prefer to emulate and I understand and respect that. 

But for me and my wife and a few others here, we chose the path more similar to couple #2.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Shifting gears a little bit and getting back to a general topic of open marriage/swinging etc is I think of the things that separates much of the swinging community from the garden variety traditionalist is that I think many swingers (I'm just using that term generically to encompass pretty much everyone that practices consensual nonmonogamy as a lifestyle choice) is that many swingers accept and recognize that people just naturally have many various attractions and desires and such throughout their lives and that it is normal and natural and does not mean that they love their spouse any less or that they are any less devoted to their spouse or their family unit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Hold on. Are you saying that the opposite of swinging is female circumcision?

You are still misunderstanding what risk means and that not every type of risk carries the same probability. It is true to say that you are at risk catching HIV from your (monogamous) spouse just as you are also at risk catching it by having anal sex with every monkey in your rain forest.
Risk is not important per se; it’s about probability for two given situations.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> .…...and for us it was never about just "having-sex-with-others." In fact, the majority of the time we went out, we did not actually play with anyone.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why can’t you do all these things without having to sleep with them? (And be professional at work). I don’t get why you have to swing to be able to do any of these things.
I’m very open about my sexuality and talk freely about sex but also don’t bang strangers (not yet anyway). We do go out together and sometimes separately. Though frankly, I always found clubbing exhausting...alone the loud music. How the **** can you talk to anyone in a club or a loud bar?





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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> Or you could simply acknowledge that in the real world, this is what is more likely to happen than not. Why take the chance, betting that your partner is the exception?


That just simply has not been my 'real world' experience in 10 years of swinging. 

Yes, I have seen it happen this and maybe a couple of other times to one degree or another. 


But this was out of a 10 year period and meeting literally hundreds of lifestyle couples throughout the country (we didn't have sex with anywhere near that many, but have met hundreds of people during our time in the lifestyle)

So in my experience and my observation, this was by far and away the exception rather than the rule. 

And I also need to add that I have also seen similar things occur many, many times in the traditional world. 

I've personally known several traditional marriages where one spouse met someone and was moving out of the marital home within days. 

And I have known countless traditional couples that just got sick of each other or one or both were recalcitrant cheaters or abusive or drunk and divorced. 

Cheating and bad behavior and divorce etc etc are not exclusive to swingers. Traditional, monogamous marriages experience cheating and bad behavior and divorce every day.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

BluesPower said:


> I know this is somewhat off topic...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Hope can be a powerful agent and give your life purpose.
But also many other reasons: kids, money, laziness. I dunno. Pick any thread.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> Hold on. Are you saying that the opposite of swinging is female circumcision?
> 
> You are still misunderstanding what risk means and that not every type of risk carries the same probability. It is true to say that you are at risk catching HIV from your (monogamous) spouse just as you are also at risk catching it by having anal sex with every monkey in your rain forest.
> Risk is not important per se; it’s about probability for two given situations.
> ...


No I understand perfectly well what risk means. 

Yes, I am higher risk of contracting an STD if I am having sex with more people. But that risk, like all risks can be reduced and mitigated to a degree (not eliminated, but reduced)

We understood we would have a higher risk of STDs if we weren't completely exclusive. We agreed on measures to reduce those risks as much as possible then accepted that we would still incur a higher risk. The people that we played with also understood that they would be incurring a higher risk as well. 

It comes down to higher risk, higher reward. Higher reward means taking higher risk. Just like the stock market. 

If you can't live with the risk and can't take the heat - stay out of the kitchen.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

BluesPower said:


> Diana, I love a lot of what you write, honestly.
> 
> 
> 
> But you do understand that there are people in the world that think that sex does not have to be exclusive to marriage, right?



If you are religious, then nope, sex HAS to be exclusive to marriage. Why would you think it was not?
There are reasons though why certain traditions are followed. Some traditions are a bit bonkers and outdated now but others, still hold true and are valid.



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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> Why can’t you do all these things without having to sleep with them? (And be professional at work). I don’t get why you have to swing to be able to do any of these things.
> I’m very open about my sexuality and talk freely about sex but also don’t bang strangers (not yet anyway). We do go out together and sometimes separately. Though frankly, I always found clubbing exhausting...alone the loud music. How the **** can you talk to anyone in a club or a loud bar?
> 
> 
> ...


My outlook was/is, if you can have sex too - why not?????? :-D

I did it because I was able to.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> I know this is somewhat off topic...
> 
> Now based on this post, which is good BTW, help me understand why men and women stay in sexless marriages.
> 
> ...


I have to believe it's for some reason, maybe they stick it out for the kids, others might have really low self esteem and figure they won't get anyone else anyway so whats the point. There has to be some reason. What I wonder is what does years and years of a sexless marriage do to someones mental health. 

The main reason my wife and I got into the lifestyle is YOLO and the fact we would rather regret trying some things than regret never having tried. If you are in a sexless marriage especially in the prime of your life I have to believe at the end staying in that will be a horrible regret.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> I did it because I was able to.


"In a world full of people, only some want to fly. Isn't that crazy??"

- Seal


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Yes, I agree that sex with the one you love is so good.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sounds like hyper bonding (what you describe as passion; though that may well be a valid form of passion too). Sounds as if you used the swinging lifestyle as a form of aphrodisiac?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I have to believe it's for some reason, maybe they stick it out for the kids, others might have really low self esteem and figure they won't get anyone else anyway so whats the point. There has to be some reason. What I wonder is what does years and years of a sexless marriage do to someones mental health.
> 
> The main reason my wife and I got into the lifestyle is YOLO and the fact we would rather regret trying some things than regret never having tried. If you are in a sexless marriage especially in the prime of your life I have to believe at the end staying in that will be a horrible regret.


Agreed.


Whenever these threads about open marriage/swinging etc pop up, the alarm bells start immediately going off with people saying that your wife/husband will fall for someone and take off with them yadda yadda yadda .

That might be true and maybe that might occur. But if that's meant to be then I'm partying like a rock star until then!!! 

These poor schleps that sit home and get fat while their frigid wives reject them night after night for years until the wife meets someone at work or at the gym and then takes off leaving them fat and frustrated on the couch are the real victims of their own device. 

Yeah my wife could have left me for some hotter stud and who knows, maybe she will tomorrow or next week or 10 years from now. 

But for 10 years of my middle age I partied like a porn star and was with everything from 25 year old hard bodies to 50 year old insatiable MILFs that could turn a lesser man inside out. 

A Formula One race driver may hit the wall and blow up into a million pieces in a spectacular fireball. But at least he didn't die of a heart attack sitting stuck in traffic in a Prius.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> I read a beautiful fable on a swinger website once that I think sums this up perfectly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Depends. Do the two couples end up swinging?  
I think it’s a nice idea. My doubts are only in relation to the odds. One or two success stories here can give out the impression that the odds of a successful outcome are better than they really are.

That second couple, could be living a nightmare for the rest of their lives, forever wondering what else the spouse may have done that they haven’t told them. Or regretting staying in the marriage instead of marrying Alejandro, from swinging couple no. 67.
But truth is, most won’t even make it to the beach to reflect on anything at all. I don’t want to sound pessimistic. Part of me IS a little bit envious but it’s ok 


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> Sounds like hyper bonding (what you describe as passion; though that may well be a valid form of passion too). Sounds as if you used the swinging lifestyle as a form of aphrodisiac?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah kinda. 

That was definitely one of the big benefits.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> No I understand perfectly well what risk means.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




No, it’s higher POTENTIAL reward. Otherwise most would be betting on risky stocks only.



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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> Depends. Do the two couples end up swinging?
> I think it’s a nice idea. My doubts are only in relation to the odds. One or two success stories here can give out the impression that the odds of a successful outcome are better than they really are.
> 
> That second couple, could be living a nightmare for the rest of their lives, forever wondering what else the spouse may have done that they haven’t told them. Or regretting staying in the marriage instead of marrying Alejandro, from swinging couple no. 67.
> ...


Yeah Dude and you may get hit by a meteor in bed tonight and they never find your body. 

Life has risks. Either sit at home under a heavy table with a helmet and knee pads or suck it up and drive on. 

If you don't want to be with anyone but your wife, embrace it. But don't sit in the bleachers with your popcorn and white sunblock on your nose and heckle the people that suited up and are on the field playing the game unless your willing to suit up and play too.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> For us its far far better and deeper and more meaningful and more enjoyable when that intimacy isn't shared with others.


Right here D, you hit the nail on the head. This is the big difference between a swinger and traditional, intimacy. And I have had this discussion with a lot of other swingers. In the lifestyle community for the most part sex and intimacy are completely separated. Two totally different things. Now this doesn't go for poly couples but I think from my experience this is a key characteristic of the successful lifestyle couple, being able to separate intimacy from sex. I can honestly say I have never been intimate with another woman besides my wife. I have never had an emotional response to sex with another woman, it's just straight sex. It can be passionate and intense but just devoid of any emotion. 

In a swinging situation the intimacy section of our brain shuts off. 

And this might also be one of the more difficult things for people to really understand. I have seen my wife have sex with another man, and what did I feel, basically the same as I do watching porn, zero emotion involved. There is some different wiring in our brains.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> If you are religious, then nope, sex HAS to be exclusive to marriage. Why would you think it was not?
> There are reasons though why certain traditions are followed. Some traditions are a bit bonkers and outdated now but others, still hold true and are valid.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I love how you sometimes miss the sarcasm. That was not the point of the post at all. 

Read the whole thing again, and maybe you will get it. You are so cute...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

BluesPower said:


> I love how you sometimes miss the sarcasm. That was not the point of the post at all.
> 
> 
> 
> Read the whole thing again, and maybe you will get it. You are so cute...




You are not too bad yourself 
Which part was supposed to be sarcasmic? Are you confusing hypocrisy with sarcasm again? 


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## Ditch (Apr 16, 2014)

I have not, but would greatly appreciate the opportunity. I live in a sexless marriage and have chosen to stay.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Yeah kinda.
> 
> 
> 
> That was definitely one of the big benefits.




This must be the main part. I cannot personally relate what’s great about having sex with many different people. Or why it would be better than sex with someone you DO have a strong emotional connection with.
If there’s no emotional connection, then the rest can surely be had with anyone? (Including wife; or perhaps for those people it’s harder to have sex with wife BECAUSE of the emotional connection?).
It’s clear though that people seem to swing for different reasons; for example to you, it’s the multiple partner aspect while to OP, it’s more the psychological benefit of knowing his wife is sexually satisfied, there are probably many other reasons why people find swinging satisfying.
I think it’s great it worked for you and others.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> I cannot personally relate what’s great about having sex with many different people. Or why it would be better than sex with someone you DO have a strong emotional connection with.


We have a very strong emotional connection; sex with each other IS great, sometimes as good as it can possibly be. Better than with others? Often, but not always, but then those others aren't a regular part of our lives, much less sex life.

I suppose the best I can do is give an analogy, and like most such, isn't going to apply to everyone, or be understood by everyone - it's not comparing identical things, after all. Let's say you love prime rib with a baked potato, and it's your favorite meal of all time. What if you HAD to eat it every day, with no other options available to you? Don't you think that once in a while you might want chicken? Or even pasta? Having occasional variety makes your favorite all the more enjoyable and special, so you don't tire of it.

We both like occasional variety, and it makes us appreciate our special connection and relationship all the more.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Depends. Do the two couples end up swinging?
> I think it’s a nice idea. My doubts are only in relation to the odds. One or two success stories here can give out the impression that the odds of a successful outcome are better than they really are.
> 
> That second couple, could be living a nightmare for the rest of their lives, forever wondering what else the spouse may have done that they haven’t told them. Or regretting staying in the marriage instead of marrying Alejandro, from swinging couple no. 67.
> ...


You know the truth is you are right. The odds are not in favor of success in my opinion. After 12 years (I think) of being on sites meeting lots of couples etc. having lots of threesomes and stuff, I have seen a lot of people crash and burn. Usually if you get past the first 5 or so experiences you are going to have experienced all the possible reactions you might have and will probably be fine if you process any negative reactions well with your partner (but really if you have any truly negative reactions you should quit it. The problem is not all people are honest, even with themselves, about their feelings. They have some challenges processing it the first time, something feels off but they don't want to let the other person down so the ignore those feelings. Then the second time it still doesn't sit right with them, now this is when they should call it quits but they don't and so on and so on and the next thing you know it's all one big mess. 

One thing I have definitely noticed in my experience is in these situations the guys are more mentally fragile than the women. Guys have far more issues with jealousy than the women. We met one couple who were complete newbies, we were the first couple they had met in person. They were cool people, they asked a ton of questions listened to our stories and seemed pretty comfortable with the whole situation. Then we were talking about how you make a decision to play with a person or couple and my wife and I were basically just saying, you have to be some what direct and let people know you're interested. Well the wife then looked at me and said I want to have sex with you. Now she was basically just following our advice albeit more point blank than we suggested. Now the look on her husbands face immediately told me that he just got smashed in the face with a reality boulder. He went casper white and began sweating. Later I told them they need to take things slow before jumping into any playing. Point being the husband loved the idea but hearing the words come out of his wife's mouth to another man was a bit much for him. I have no idea what happened with them hopefully they decided it was not for them I didn't have a good feeling for the husband.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

His_Response said:


> It's a long story, but a few years ago my wife and I decided to allow each other to have sex with other people. We are still each other's primary focus, we still love each other very much, and in general things are going fine.
> 
> I won't go into every detail of how we got started, but the really short version is that my wife went through a long period of having no sex drive at all, and when she recovered from it her resulting drive was so strong that it caught her off guard. She nearly cheated on me, despite our own sex life being amazing again. I forgave her, and in a (perhaps) odd twist, I offered that we could consider swinging to allow her to fulfill the fantasy she had of being with another man. So we did, and aside from a few bumps in the road at the start, things have gone very well, and our marriage is still strong. Our sex life is still excellent. (And for those that doubt, I still give my wife better orgasms than any lover she has had so far... but that's only fair, considering I know her better sexually than any other man could.) We don't 'play' all the time, but every month or two we take a hotel room for some extra fun. My wife is shy about being watched, so I allow her to have her lovers alone, as she also does for me. We're allowed to play separately, but we always tell each other about it ahead of time (or if there is something truly spontaneous, immediately after...), and we have completely open communication. I have access to her phone, she has access to mine. We can read each other's chats, if we wish, which can be important if one of us feels the other might be getting 'too close' to a playmate.
> 
> ...


Yes. I prefer to communicate by PM. This is often not a friendly place for discussions on this topic. I warn you that you will hear a lot of "truth" that has no basis in experience from people who have made up their mind what ethical non-monogamy is.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

CharlieParker said:


> @NobodySpecial @Married but Happy


Sorry. I have not been online very much lately.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> We have a very strong emotional connection; sex with each other IS great, sometimes as good as it can possibly be. Better than with others? Often, but not always, but then those others aren't a regular part of our lives, much less sex life.
> 
> I suppose the best I can do is give an analogy, and like most such, isn't going to apply to everyone, or be understood by everyone - it's not comparing identical things, after all. Let's say you love prime rib with a baked potato, and it's your favorite meal of all time. What if you HAD to eat it every day, with no other options available to you? Don't you think that once in a while you might want chicken? Or even pasta? Having occasional variety makes your favorite all the more enjoyable and special, so you don't tire of it.
> 
> We both like occasional variety, and it makes us appreciate our special connection and relationship all the more.


Eventually one had better get rid of the idea of comparison. One of the things about seeking difference is that your partners are going to be DIFFERENT. If someone is worried about this or that being better, it might be better not to play.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> No I understand perfectly well what risk means.
> 
> Yes, I am higher risk of contracting an STD if I am having sex with more people. But that risk, like all risks can be reduced and mitigated to a degree (not eliminated, but reduced)
> 
> ...


One thing that struck me was how open everyone was on this topic. Being asked to see the results of most recent tests was not unheard of. Open communication is a must. Statistically, it seems, swingers are actually at a lower risk of contracting STI's (the are called infections rather than diseases because the word disease means presenting symptoms) than supposed monogamous couples. Obviously not everyone cheats. But inherent to cheating is dishonesty. What is more one piece of dishonesty to pile on in that situation?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

wilson said:


> I can understand that my spouse may find other people attractive and have desires that I can't meet. But for me, sex and emotions are tightly intertwined. If I had sex with someone else, my feelings would be part of that process.


This avoidance of emotional connection may be prevalent in swinging, though not universal. The use of "swinger" to embrace all ethically non-monogamous people bugs me for that reason. Nomenclature can matter. If I was talking to another programmer and used the term "for loop" to describe all loops, she would rightly not understand me. 




> *I would likely fall into that "crush" phase or whatever where you think everything that person does is awesome.* _ I would likely begin thinking that being with this other person would be all rainbows and candy and that my spouse is holding me back._


Bold can be awesome. Fun, invigorating. NRE (new relationship energy) is real and something people seek. The italic does not need to happen if one is mindful of the different value and importance of different relationship. The fun and new means MORE care and feeding of your marriage. And this is GOOD.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happyhusband0005 said:


> You know the truth is you are right. The odds are not in favor of success in my opinion. After 12 years (I think) of being on sites meeting lots of couples etc. having lots of threesomes and stuff, I have seen a lot of people crash and burn. Usually if you get past the first 5 or so experiences you are going to have experienced all the possible reactions you might have and will probably be fine if you process any negative reactions well with your partner (but really if you have any truly negative reactions you should quit it. The problem is not all people are honest, even with themselves, about their feelings. They have some challenges processing it the first time, something feels off but they don't want to let the other person down so the ignore those feelings. Then the second time it still doesn't sit right with them, now this is when they should call it quits but they don't and so on and so on and the next thing you know it's all one big mess.
> 
> 
> 
> One thing I have definitely noticed in my experience is in these situations the guys are more mentally fragile than the women. Guys have far more issues with jealousy than the women. We met one couple who were complete newbies, we were the first couple they had met in person. They were cool people, they asked a ton of questions listened to our stories and seemed pretty comfortable with the whole situation. Then we were talking about how you make a decision to play with a person or couple and my wife and I were basically just saying, you have to be some what direct and let people know you're interested. Well the wife then looked at me and said I want to have sex with you. Now she was basically just following our advice albeit more point blank than we suggested. Now the look on her husbands face immediately told me that he just got smashed in the face with a reality boulder. He went casper white and began sweating. Later I told them they need to take things slow before jumping into any playing. Point being the husband loved the idea but hearing the words come out of his wife's mouth to another man was a bit much for him. I have no idea what happened with them hopefully they decided it was not for them I didn't have a good feeling for the husband.




Yeah, I can completely see that guys would be mentally more fragile. Somehow it doesn’t surprise me. I don’t want to imagine what his face will look like once he sees another dude tea bagging his wife if he reacted this way to a simple script.

I think the main problem with the hot wife thing is that the guy imagines in his mind something completely different than what actually happens. In the husbands fantasy, the wife is supposed to conform to HIS fantasies, enjoy getting aroused from the experience and then crawl back to the husband, all horny for him, and completely submit to him and the husband ****s her unconscious to ‘reclaim’ her. I get that and it is kind of hot.

But the problem is that what often seems to happens in reality is that the wife actually views the whole thing as a hall pass to have an affair, with the husband’s permission. She is not doing it for him, she is doing it for her, and for the other man. It becomes an intimate thing between them two, and the husband often is left out and wonders what the hell happened. 
Stop buttons are all fine but they shouldn’t be confused with rewind buttons. You can’t then undo something like this and demand her to go back to how she felt before the whole thing. It is likely that by this point, her mind and feelings are already changed for good.

I am really not sure many people think it through properly...I think they should.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> Eventually one had better get rid of the idea of comparison. One of the things about seeking difference is that your partners are going to be DIFFERENT. If someone is worried about this or that being better, it might be better not to play.




You mentioned previously that both you and your husband did ‘trip up’ and fell for someone else at one point or another during your adventures. Can I ask how this happened? And how did you managed to overcome this in the end?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> One thing that struck me was how open everyone was on this topic. Being asked to see the results of most recent tests was not unheard of. Open communication is a must. Statistically, it seems, swingers are actually at a lower risk of contracting STI's (the are called infections rather than diseases because the word disease means presenting symptoms) than supposed monogamous couples. Obviously not everyone cheats. But inherent to cheating is dishonesty. What is more one piece of dishonesty to pile on in that situation?



I would not arrive to a meeting with another couple WITHOUT the most CURRENT test. Given the life style, couples can be as honest as they want but they can still have infections (since the last test) and not know about them.

Is it practical to go to a clinic after every encounter if they are frequent? And if you don’t have frequent encounters and the last one was, say, 6 months ago, how confident would the new potential couple feel that the last test is ‘out of date’?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> Bold can be awesome. Fun, invigorating. NRE (new relationship energy) is real and something people seek. The italic does not need to happen if one is mindful of the different value and importance of different relationship. The fun and new means MORE care and feeding of your marriage. And this is GOOD.



This part I truly don’t understand: how can you have NRE yet not fall for someone/be ‘faithful’ to your partner? (Faithful in the sense that you are still viewing your partner as the main person of attraction/someone you want to be with). This is an oxymoron and there’s some cognitive dissonance here.



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## I shouldnthave (Apr 11, 2018)

Good discussion, joining in a bit to share about the experiences my husband and I have had.

We *considered* swinging, but thus far at least never followed through. 

We joined a few local on line groups, talked to many couples and even a few singles.... Attended some meet up, they were held in neutral places, and if you wanted to play, you were welcome to go to the designated hotel rooms and do so.

For us... I don't know, I didn't encounter anyone that made me want to pull the trigger. There were a few couples that wanted to do a full swap, I gave my husband permission to play with "her" but I was never really interested in "him" (her spouse).

In the end, I think we discovered we like to be exhibitionist. We haven't done so in person (okay besides a crazy time in vegas which doesn't count), but shared many videos - even live feeds 

I loved seeing all of these women lust after him, compliment him on his skills and body. It really boosted his ego as well.

And the same was true for me, having some hunky young dudes just.... Aching and begging for a chance was an ego boost, and my husband liked showing me off (and the women were even more interested! But not my thing).

It's not "NRE" but we do get a real boost from it. Being lusted after by others so blatantly brought a new energy to our sex life, and a pep in our step if you will.

Basically, we are teases. Both of us are allowed to flirt when we are out on the town, and we talk about it later - it lights our fires.

I'll whisper in his ear "I heard her say you have gorgeous eyes" or he will tell me how he saw I had some young blood wrapped around my finger.

It's as if, in a way letting others chase, brings back all those emotions, the intensity, the sexual tension, the lust that we had when we first met many years ago.

Seeing other women want him, seeing how easily he could have them, doesn't make me jealous, but does make me extra horny for him.

I admit, I love the tease game - recently we met a couple while out, he asked for my husbands number, 

(And for full disclosure, I have to admit both of us have cheated in years prior - reconciliation actually brought us closer, and now its no secrets, but rather mutual exploration).


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I shouldnthave said:


> Good discussion, joining in a bit to share about the experiences my husband and I have had.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




This, I can relate to: toying with the idea that other people find your partner desirable does normally increase your own desire for your partner - I often experienced it. But it’s a VERY different game than to actually get involved with someone else or swap with an actual couple.
We also tried the camera streaming thing; it’s actually quite fun; you are always in control (you can always switch it off if you find it annoying whereas if you suddenly decided that another dude entering your wife anally may be a bit too much, it might be difficult to say “‘xcuse me, can you now **** off please?”.
There are also no STDs. Maybe just a Trojan virus )
But I noticed how different the experience is for us two: while I find the interactive thing stimulating (up to a point), -all the comments, compliments, requests etc - my wife finds it mostly distracting and annoying and she thinks I’m enjoying the attention (which I do, a bit) while I actually want her to enjoy the attention on her (which she doesn’t). It’s that what made me think how totally different the same experience can feel for two people. And if that was a real situation (with another couple or another guy); at the point where she actually gets into it and begins to enjoy another person, I will probably have lost her by then.

I think it’s a very slippery slope. And I think some people end up going into it under false pretences (knowingly or unknowingly, it’s not clear). While for a select few, it is a success.
But what happens when the games stop? Does it feel empty/boring? 

The other thing about swinging with real couples is that I have not really met any other woman that was as attractive as my wife so what is the point of playing around with a downgrade? Just because it’s different? Don’t think it’s a good enough reason or worth the hassle. I think the interesting part for me has nothing to do with sleeping with others (it must get boring after a while; how different can vaginas be?); but to experience my wife’s reactions towards a stimulus that is not linked to me. But unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on you perspective) she only reacts to me (and if there’s a time when she stops reacting to me one day, i will have probably lost her to someone else) so that’s why it doesn’t really work for us.






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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> You mentioned previously that both you and your husband did ‘trip up’ and fell for someone else at one point or another during your adventures. Can I ask how this happened? And how did you managed to overcome this in the end?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I could write a book! It would be a comedy. I don't know what you mean by how it happened. It just happened. I am not sure a person can stop it. It was quite a few years ago. Well, I guess I could not write a book because I don't remember all the details. But in the end, polyamory made more sense to us than swinging.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> I would not arrive to a meeting with another couple WITHOUT the most CURRENT test. Given the life style, couples can be as honest as they want but they can still have infections (since the last test) and not know about them.
> 
> Is it practical to go to a clinic after every encounter if they are frequent? And if you don’t have frequent encounters and the last one was, say, 6 months ago, how confident would the new potential couple feel that the last test is ‘out of date’?
> 
> ...


That is a risk benefit analysis that every couple does for themselves. NO ONE (well next to no one) does this without condoms. And those that do do not find partners easily if at all.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> This part I truly don’t understand: how can you have NRE yet not fall for someone/be ‘faithful’ to your partner? (Faithful in the sense that you are still viewing your partner as the main person of attraction/someone you want to be with). This is an oxymoron and there’s some cognitive dissonance here.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No oxymoron to me. Just different.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> I am not sure a person can stop it.



But that’s exactly what I’m going on about this whole time: the person usually CAN’T stop it (or it’s very difficult) and it’s much more likely to happen when you actually have sex with someone you find a bit attractive. Attraction only grows stronger through sex because of hormones.
And if that’s the case - and one still goes ahead and risks everything -
doesn’t it make it a poor and irresponsible decision to still go ahead? (Not for you but for others. You must be a pro by now 

You should write a book..or at least practice it writing it here first  I promise I won’t judge. There’s not enough comedy on TAM. I try but I haven’t done anything funny, sexually. 





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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> But that’s exactly what I’m going on about this whole time: the person usually CAN’T stop it (or it’s very difficult)


Most people don't attempt to stop it from HAPPENING but agree to regroup as a couple and evaluate if it does.



> and it’s much more likely to happen when you actually have sex with someone you find a bit attractive. Attraction only grows stronger through sex because of hormones.
> And if that’s the case - and one still goes ahead and risks everything -
> doesn’t it make it a poor and irresponsible decision to still go ahead? (Not for you but for others. You must be a pro by now
> 
> You should write a book..or at least practice it writing it here first  I promise I won’t judge. There’s not enough comedy on TAM. I try but I haven’t done anything funny, sexually.


Attraction and hormones are the least likely to cause a big emotional investment, in my experience. Common experience, "getting" each other and the like is MUCH more likely to engender deeper feelings.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/quote]


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## His_Response (Jun 14, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> This part I truly don’t understand: how can you have NRE yet not fall for someone/be ‘faithful’ to your partner? (Faithful in the sense that you are still viewing your partner as the main person of attraction/someone you want to be with). This is an oxymoron and there’s some cognitive dissonance here.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


There is often (if not always) NRE, I think. If you're intimate with someone, especially in a 1-on-1 situation, you are going to make an emotional connection with them. My wife and I believe we are old enough (mature enough) to handle it, however.  Just because there is NRE doesn't mean you have to throw yourself into (what I call) capital-L Love with the person. And at our age we're not looking to fall in love... so we catch ourselves... and catch each other. The fact that our partner is involved and knows what is going on helps this; I often talk to my wife about how things are going with a new boyfriend she has, and she does the same with me. It keeps us grounded. I don't think I can explain it any better than that... but it seems to work for us.


-H.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> This part I truly don’t understand: how can you have NRE yet not fall for someone/be ‘faithful’ to your partner? (Faithful in the sense that you are still viewing your partner as the main person of attraction/someone you want to be with). This is an oxymoron and there’s some cognitive dissonance here.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Bear in mind that in an open marriage, being faithful to your spouse involves being true to agreement. A common mistake is to make agreements that are not possible to be true to, like not developing feelings of any kind. A smarter agreement is to pause and to circle the wagons should this happen to determine what it means to the marriage.


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## His_Response (Jun 14, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> The other thing about swinging with real couples is that I have not really met any other woman that was as attractive as my wife so what is the point of playing around with a downgrade? Just because it’s different? Don’t think it’s a good enough reason or worth the hassle. I think the interesting part for me has nothing to do with sleeping with others (it must get boring after a while; how different can vaginas be?); but to experience my wife’s reactions towards a stimulus that is not linked to me. But unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on you perspective) she only reacts to me (and if there’s a time when she stops reacting to me one day, i will have probably lost her to someone else) so that’s why it doesn’t really work for us.



I completely understand what you mean about attraction and compatibility; my wife is the most beautiful, desirable woman in the world, as far as I am concerned, and has always (and still is) the most exciting and compatible partner I've ever had. But different can be fun; even if she is not nearly as good as my wife. Finding a playmate is also about personality, not just the physical. If I'm attracted to a woman's personality, it's then very possible for me to be interested in knowing what it would be like to pleasure her sexually... even if she is not nearly as physically attractive as my wife. (And frankly, no, it's never, ever been boring. *grin*) Just thought I'd add that thought in regard to this point.  I certainly respect your appreciation for what you have with your wife, and applaud it. We're just wired a bit differently.


-H.


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