# Consent in Relationships



## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

Generally, what is necessary to have consent between partners?

Some examples might include:

If a man claims to be a millionaire but he’s not, and a woman agrees to have sex with him based upon his false representations, was there sufficient consent?

If a woman claims to be on birth control but she’s not, and the man would not have had unprotected sex if he knew the truth, is there sufficient consent?

If a man claims he’s using a condom but isn’t — “stealthing” — is there sufficient consent?

If a man claims that he’s white but he’s actually 1/8 black, and the woman would not consent to interracial sex, is there sufficient consent?

If a woman wakes up from a hot dream, mounts her boyfriend’s erection while he’s sleeping, is there sufficient consent?


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

CraigBesuden said:


> Generally, what is necessary to have consent between partners?
> 
> If a man claims to be a millionaire but he’s not, and a woman agrees to have sex with him based upon his false representations, was there sufficient consent?
> 
> ...


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

IMHO
Consent to sex acts covers those actions which are agreed upon. So lying about using a condom or birth control violates consent.

Lying about dangerous medical conditions violates consent.

Lying about wealth may involve a breach of contract but not a violation of sexual consent

Lying about race or ethnicity is only a breach of consent if it is intentional and was specifically discussed beforehand. 


Couples can have all sorts of "assumed consent" agreements. In some cases engaging in sex with a sleeping partner has been agreed upon, in others not. If not previously agreed to, then there is no consent.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Rape by deception...its a thing, not just for guys pretending to be millionaires or pilots:



> Two years ago Kashur met a Jewish woman on the street in Jerusalem. He worked as a messenger for an Israeli law firm and like some other Palestinians looking to integrate more effectively into Israeli society had assumed the identity of a Jew. He called himself Dudu, a common Israeli name.
> 
> On the same day the two had a consensual sexual encounter in a nearby office building. The woman, whose identity is still protected by law, did not know Kashur was an Arab. When she found out she filed a complaint with police.
> 
> ...


https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnew...d-jew-jailed-rape-deception/story?id=11224513


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

CraigBesuden said:


> Generally, what is necessary to have consent between partners?
> 
> Some examples might include:
> 
> ...


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Rape by deception...its a thing, not just for guys pretending to be millionaires or pilots:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnew...d-jew-jailed-rape-deception/story?id=11224513


Very interesting. I suppose there could be some weird angles on this subject.


----------



## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

Interesting the questions that arise when society has devolved into a barnyard.

(BTW, stay away from the ducks, they are rapey!)


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

CraigBesuden said:


> Generally, what is necessary to have consent between partners?
> 
> Some examples might include:
> 
> If a man claims to be a millionaire but he’s not, and a woman agrees to have sex with him based upon his false representations, was there sufficient consent?


This one is tricky. Did she state she would only have sex with him if he was a millionaire?




CraigBesuden said:


> If a woman claims to be on birth control but she’s not, and the man would not have had unprotected sex if he knew the truth, is there sufficient consent?


No



CraigBesuden said:


> If a man claims he’s using a condom but isn’t — “stealthing” — is there sufficient consent?


No



CraigBesuden said:


> If a man claims that he’s white but he’s actually 1/8 black, and the woman would not consent to interracial sex, is there sufficient consent?


No.



CraigBesuden said:


> If a woman wakes up from a hot dream, mounts her boyfriend’s erection while he’s sleeping, is there sufficient consent?


No, unless it was discussed beforehand that this sort of thing is allowed.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Post Deleted


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

MODERATOR NOTE #2:

Unless you want this thread shut down too, please stick to discussing the topic and not with attacking other people - each other or TAM men/women in general.


----------



## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

CraigBesuden said:


> Generally, what is necessary to have consent between partners?
> 
> Some examples might include:
> 
> ...


NO.....sex with an unconscious person is not consensual.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

StillSearching said:


> If a man claims he’s using a condom but isn’t — “stealthing” — is there sufficient consent?
> Yes...She should look..


How in the heck is she supposed to keep an eye on his penis the entire time? It is sexual assault and many countries are adding specific laws against it (though it could also fall under existing laws, it makes it easier to prosecute if they include a specific law against it)


----------



## MaiChi (Jun 20, 2018)

If a man claims to be a millionaire but he’s not, and a woman agrees to have sex with him based upon his false representations, was there sufficient consent?

Answer: If she did not ask for proof of his riches it should be assumed that she was not that bothered about his money and YES she gave consent. 
If a woman claims to be on birth control but she’s not, and the man would not have had unprotected sex if he knew the truth, is there sufficient consent?

Answer: If she gets pregnant he should be treated exactly the same as if he did not ask her anything before sex. He gave consent, because if you go round having sex with people you are not in serious relationships with, you should take extra case to protect yourself. So wear a condom. 

If a man claims he’s using a condom but isn’t — “stealthing” — is there sufficient consent?

Answer: It is the duty of the woman to protect herself as far as is practicable. If she puts a condom on him before sex and he removes it at some point during sex, then she did not give consent for that. If she just assumes he is using a condom, she should be deemed to have given consent. 

If a man claims that he’s white but he’s actually 1/8 black, and the woman would not consent to interracial sex, is there sufficient consent?

Answer: In some countries you are what you say you are. Male/female/black/white/Asian/ etc. I reported every single anomaly of colour that people declared when I was participating in the Census. In every case I was told to record what the person wrote and told If he feels white he is white. That is his legal status. 

If a woman wakes up from a hot dream, mounts her boyfriend’s erection while he’s sleeping, is there sufficient consent?

Answer: In our house we have discussed in advance long ago that we allow sex with a sleeping or half sleeping partner. We do regularly. If they had had sex already before and consent was not at any point revoked, then he/she has consent till it is expressly revoked.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think that short of some sort of written agreement, criminalizing lying about ones self in ways that do not directly affect sex is too deep a rabbit hole.

Lying about disease, birth control etc is deception directly related to sex ,and should be criminalized. I'm OK with criminalizing lying about marital status for sex.

Lying about job, wealth etc seems way too messy to enforce. Too many shades of grey. If someones wealth or status determine whether or not you will have sex with them, then I think you need to do your own verification first. (the exception of course if if you have a specific financial agreement in return for sex)


----------



## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> How in the heck is she supposed to keep an eye on his penis the entire time? *It is sexual assault* and many countries are adding specific laws against it (though it could also fall under existing laws, it makes it easier to prosecute if they include a specific law against it)


What??? that's insanity.

Just look. It's that simple.
So claiming to be on birth control is also sexual assault and illegal?....wow.


----------



## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

uhtred said:


> I think that short of some sort of written agreement, criminalizing lying about ones self in ways that do not directly affect sex is too deep a rabbit hole.
> 
> *Lying about disease, birth control etc is deception directly related to sex ,and should be criminalized.* * I'm OK with criminalizing lying about marital status for sex.*
> 
> Lying about job, wealth etc seems way too messy to enforce. Too many shades of grey. If someones wealth or status determine whether or not you will have sex with them, then I think you need to do your own verification first. (the exception of course if if you have a specific financial agreement in return for sex)


This I can go along with.....but innocent before proven guilty of course.


----------



## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

What if you consent to have sex with a 6’3 man who is 37 yo, but you latter learn that he is 6’2 and 39 yo? Is that rape?

What if you consent to have sex with a man at a conference wearing a name badge that indicates he’s a senior VP, but you later learn that he’s the senior VP’s admin?

(The latter is based on a real thing in Vegas in a certain industry. The big guys, who are married, give their IDs to the young nerds for the night as a perk. The hot young sales associates, some married or engaged, flirt with and sleep with the nerdy underlings to try and procure money and contracts.)


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

To clarify my previous posts - i don't think it should be illegal to lie about your job or wealth in order to get sex, but I think its a slimy thing to do and is immoral. 

(this is assuming that your job is not *directly* related to having sex in some way (that I can't think of at the moment))


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

StillSearching said:


> What??? that's insanity.
> 
> Just look. It's that simple.
> So claiming to be on birth control is also sexual assault and illegal?....wow.


I don't think you know what stealthing is, at least I hope not. It is against the law


----------



## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

My divorced SIL has one child. She wanted a second, but was divorcing her husband who didn’t want any more kids. Her husband used condoms for birth control with her, at least at that time during their troubles (maybe 13 years ago or so). She got him very drunk and got him to have sex with her without a condom, hoping that she’d get pregnant. Unfortunately for her, she didn’t take.

Was that rape?

BTW, a lot of women complain that we need a birth control pill for men. Be careful what you wish for. Not only intentional accidents (“oops, I guess the pill failed”), but women secretly wondering why they aren’t getting pregnant while their fertility wanes. It will be so much fun!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

CraigBesuden said:


> My divorced SIL has one child. She wanted a second, but was divorcing her husband who didn’t want any more kids. Her husband used condoms for birth control with her, at least at that time during their troubles (maybe 13 years ago or so). She got him very drunk and got him to have sex with her without a condom, hoping that she’d get pregnant. Unfortunately for her, she didn’t take.
> 
> Was that rape?
> 
> ...


It is a form of sexual assault, yes. Specific laws about consent can vary by country.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

CraigBesuden said:


> What if you consent to have sex with a 6’3 man who is 37 yo, but you latter learn that he is 6’2 and 39 yo? Is that rape?
> 
> What if you consent to have sex with a man at a conference wearing a name badge that indicates he’s a senior VP, but you later learn that he’s the senior VP’s admin?
> 
> (The latter is based on a real thing in Vegas in a certain industry. The big guys, who are married, give their IDs to the young nerds for the night as a perk. The hot young sales associates, some married or engaged, flirt with and sleep with the nerdy underlings to try and procure money and contracts.)


If these things are important, then people should hold off on sex until they get the information that they require. I do not want the courts crowded because a handful of people can't control their sexual urges.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Yes I'd call it rape. She took advantage of an intoxicated person to engage in sex acts that she knew he would not consent to sober. 

If it happened to me, I might not press charges, but I would leave immediately and only have further contact through divorce attorneys. 



CraigBesuden said:


> My divorced SIL has one child. She wanted a second, but was divorcing her husband who didn’t want any more kids. Her husband used condoms for birth control with her, at least at that time during their troubles (maybe 13 years ago or so). She got him very drunk and got him to have sex with her without a condom, hoping that she’d get pregnant. Unfortunately for her, she didn’t take.
> 
> Was that rape?
> 
> ...


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

StillSearching said:


> NO.....sex with an unconscious person is not consensual.


Can we agree that ANY sex that might carry unwanted consequences for the unasked party would violate consent? Sex with an unaware person certainly fits this category. The unaware guy sleeping with the erection might not want to be a father. That's a rather huge potential consequence.


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

CraigBesuden said:


> My divorced SIL has one child. She wanted a second, but was divorcing her husband who didn’t want any more kids. Her husband used condoms for birth control with her, at least at that time during their troubles (maybe 13 years ago or so). She got him very drunk and got him to have sex with her without a condom, hoping that she’d get pregnant. Unfortunately for her, she didn’t take.
> 
> Was that rape?
> 
> ...


If not rape, it should most certainly be legit cause for a significant civil action. Deception about birth control would, in my mind, include intentional distraction. Getting him drunk certainly goes that direction. 

Curious why you mention it was unfortunate for her that she didn't get pregnant? It would seem to me that any child born from deceit is likely not to have the best chances for a great childhood. I think it very fortunate for her that she did not get pregnant, because if could be one of those "be careful what you wish for." In any event, it certainly helps to bring up why consent is so important. It also helps to show how fuzzy the definition of consent can become.


----------



## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

StillSearching said:


> What??? that's insanity.
> 
> Just look. It's that simple.
> So claiming to be on birth control is also sexual assault and illegal?....wow.


LOL...Just look...so he's about to enter from behind and she's supposed to turn herself into a contortionist so she can be sure he doesn't slip it off at the last second? And why is it not rape simply because she "should have" looked? Well, the same could be said for date rape...she should have made sure her drink was safe, she should have made sure she was sober, etc, etc. While these are good practices for sure, the fact that a woman doesn't do them does not exonerate a man who takes advantage of that and has sex with her.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Any sex can have consequences which is why consent is important. Its possible to give consent in advance such as: "you are welcome to wake me up with sex anytime you want". Absent that, sex with an unconscious person is not consenting. 





Casual Observer said:


> Can we agree that ANY sex that might carry unwanted consequences for the unasked party would violate consent? Sex with an unaware person certainly fits this category. The unaware guy sleeping with the erection might not want to be a father. That's a rather huge potential consequence.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Definitions of consent can get fuzzy around the edges, but engaging in a sex act with someone you you have reason to believe would not consent if they were sober / awake, is clearly a violation of consent. 

Fuzziness comes in where people ideas of what range of activities has been consented to varies, and where its not obvious.


----------



## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

Here is a consent question I have had for a while :

If you are being cheated on by your spouse, and the cheating spouse is have sex with both you and the AP regularly, is there consent by the betrayed spouse ?

And what happens if it is unprotected sex with both BS and AP ?


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

barbados said:


> Here is a consent question I have had for a while :
> 
> If you are being cheated on by your spouse, and the cheating spouse is have sex with both you and the AP regularly, is there consent by the betrayed spouse ?
> 
> And what happens if it is unprotected sex with both BS and AP ?


Interesting thought. I think if there was ever a case for rape by deception, then that would be it in that situation.


----------



## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> barbados said:
> 
> 
> > Here is a consent question I have had for a while :
> ...


I was just thinking that!

“Honey, just so we are entirely clear, my consent to sex with you is entirely contingent with you being exclusive to me. I do not consent to sex with you if you ever cheat on me. If I find out that you cheated on me, every sex act with me from the start of the affair onward until I discovered it will be a separate count of sexual assault. I will report your crimes to local law enforcement, you’ll be incarcerated and spend the rest of your life on the sex offender registry. Okay, hon? Just don’t cheat and it will be okay.”

And what if an 18 yo college student Susie is cheating on her hometown boyfriend with her college boyfriend. Neither boy would consent to sleeping with a cheater. So Susie is a double rapist.

If society goes down this road — my consent to Susie was contingent on 100 different factors — the answer is yes. Everybody’s name will be on the sex offender registry for life.


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

barbados said:


> Here is a consent question I have had for a while :
> 
> If you are being cheated on by your spouse, and the cheating spouse is have sex with both you and the AP regularly, is there consent by the betrayed spouse ?
> 
> And what happens if it is unprotected sex with both BS and AP ?


Absolutely there are potential severe consequences to all involved here. It is entirely reasonable to expect there are already laws on the books that would treat this seriously, with the question being, do the laws come into play only if there's an issue, or if there has been potential? For some STDs, there is no such thing as safe sex. Unless vaccinated, HPV is a risk even with condom use. 

We recently had a thread here where a cheating wife (WW?) intentionally had unprotected sex with her husband after having unprotected sex with her AP earlier that same day, for the purpose of covering up a possible pregnancy. That was a real-world situation, not a hypothetical. Something you think probably happens but really didn't expect to see admitted here on TAM. You want to think threads like this are just a mental exercise, but unfortunately it's real world.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

How about a woman concealing the fact that she has breast implants? Could that qualify as rape by deception? Assuming the man would not have slept with her had he known they were not real?


----------



## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

I’m not sure legally that you can consent in advance. You need current consent. A sleeping person cannot consent.



uhtred said:


> Any sex can have consequences which is why consent is important. Its possible to give consent in advance such as: "you are welcome to wake me up with sex anytime you want". Absent that, sex with an unconscious person is not consenting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

NextTimeAround said:


> CraigBesuden said:
> 
> 
> > What if you consent to have sex with a 6’3 man who is 37 yo, but you latter learn that he is 6’2 and 39 yo? Is that rape?
> ...


----------



## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> How about a woman concealing the fact that she has breast implants? Could that qualify as rape by deception? Assuming the man would not have slept with her had he known they were not real?


Yes.


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

CraigBesuden said:


> I’m not sure legally that you can consent in advance. You need current consent. A sleeping person cannot consent.


Which then begs the question, how long is consent good for? 

What if "Hysterical bonding" is closely scrutinized? Might it be taking advantage of a person in a confused emotional state in some cases?


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Casual Observer said:


> CraigBesuden said:
> 
> 
> > I’m not sure legally that you can consent in advance. You need current consent. A sleeping person cannot consent.
> ...


The only safe consent is one signed by both parties and notorized, complete with a credit report, school transcripts, and atleast one pay stub in the past year.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

That would surprise me. 

If I told my wife "you can wake me with a BJ anytime you want", doesn't that provide consent for her to do exactly that? Consent always includes some (often implied) future time. If someone says F me hard, the assumption is that that consent includes the next few seconds at least, but not 10 years in the future after a divorce. 

A reasonable jury could decide a reasonable time scale for different "consents". 

Similarly I feel safe from charges of assault for kissing my wife goodnight with out asking, since we've done that basically every night for 30 years. 






CraigBesuden said:


> I’m not sure legally that you can consent in advance. You need current consent. A sleeping person cannot consent.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

The fun things in life are never completely safe. I don't think its useful to reduce risk to zero just to an acceptable level. 




UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> The only safe consent is one signed by both parties and notorized, complete with a credit report, school transcripts, and atleast one pay stub in the past year.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

People just need to follow the 'yes means yes' consent rules. 

Talking someone into it is not consent
"maybe" "I don't know" "I guess" is not consent. 

Yes means yes. 

If you have to lie to get the yes, it's not a yes.


----------



## MaiChi (Jun 20, 2018)

What is a person does not tell you they have had gender re-assignment? Is that a consent issue? 

If it is then the whole matter starts to include such matters as woman has had a hysterectomy and cannot now have children, 

Man has had a vasectomy and cannot now have children

partner had donated a kidney

Man had hair implants /woman is wearing a hair hat.

Used to work as a prostitute male or female 


We cannot have all these included as nobody would date


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I agree that those are good questions that do not have obvious answers. 


Personally I don't feel former sex work needs to be divulged as long as it doesn't present a present disease risk that is outside of what a partner might expect in the circumstances. 

I also don't have an issue with impants (of any sort), or missing kidneys because they are not directly sex related, 

Conditions that prevent fertility I think are only important in situations where a reasonable person might be hoping for pregnancy. 


Gender reassignment is extremely tricky. 




MaiChi said:


> What is a person does not tell you they have had gender re-assignment? Is that a consent issue?
> 
> If it is then the whole matter starts to include such matters as woman has had a hysterectomy and cannot now have children,
> 
> ...


----------



## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

CraigBesuden said:


> Generally, what is necessary to have consent between partners?
> 
> Some examples might include:
> 
> ...


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> How about a woman concealing the fact that she has breast implants? Could that qualify as rape by deception? Assuming the man would not have slept with her had he known they were not real?


Hahahaha! Along the same lines as a man with a sock in his pants.:grin2:


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

uhtred said:


> The fun things in life are never completely safe. I don't think its useful to reduce risk to zero just to an acceptable level.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Tell that to the guy that get metoo'd. His life is ruined even if he is innocent.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

CraigBesuden said:


> Generally, what is necessary to have consent between partners?
> 
> Some examples might include:
> 
> ...


This is one of many reasons why I am pro waiting till either marriage or at least till you REALLY know your partner before you have sex. Makes the above situations far far more unlikely.


----------



## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

CraigBesuden said:


> (The latter is based on a real thing in Vegas in a certain industry. The big guys, who are married, give their IDs to the young nerds for the night as a perk. The hot young sales associates, some married or engaged, flirt with and sleep with the nerdy underlings to try and procure money and contracts.)


That's hilarious. I work as a marriage therapist every day, I've heard everything, and I still sometimes learn something on this forum!


----------



## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

uhtred said:


> I agree that those are good questions that do not have obvious answers.


Yes. Expecting there to be a nice clear bright boundary between consent and no consent is a mistake. *Nearly all* situations that happen are clear enough, but we can come up with plenty of "right on the edge" examples that happen in real life. I am deeply suspicious of anyone who thinks this topic is simple. 

To take just one example. It is widely agreed that a person can't consent if drunk. How drunk? The scale goes from one sip of weak beer, to unconscious. People often drink at social occasions where they meet potential partners. If anyone who's had any alcohol whatsoever is off limits, even if they are apparently willing, then that's not going to work. 

And we can add to that scenario, "If anyone who's had any alcohol whatsoever is off limits, even if they are already boyfriend and girlfriend" because an established relationship doesn't in itself mean consent on this occasion. Oh no, honey, now we can't have sex, I had a glass of wine an hour ago. Sorry. 

It's a continuum which is absurd if taken to either extreme, and where to draw the line in the middle will never be simple. 

We could say the exact same about: 
enhancing your appearance (makeup? cosmetic surgery?); 
"talking someone into it" (badgering them constantly? asking nicely?); 
or lying (about being single when they are actually married? about where they grew up?)
or even lying by omission (Marduk raised a good one on another thread: if someone doesn't inform a potential partner that they were once a soldier and killed people, does that omission mean there's no valid consent? How about if they know they have an STD, don't mention it, and the other person doesn't ask?) 

The single stupidest thing I have ever seen in my whole entire life was a short youtube video saying it's all perfectly simple, just like offering someone a cup of tea. I nearly threw my laptop across the room.


----------



## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

MaiChi said:


> What is a person does not tell you they have had gender re-assignment? Is that a consent issue?
> 
> If it is then the whole matter starts to include such matters as woman has had a hysterectomy and cannot now have children,
> 
> ...


If I were single, I would want to date a woman who wanted children. If she misled me and had her tubes tied, yeah, I would never have had sex with her if I knew the truth.

If you are dating to get married and have kids, you wouldn’t have had sex with the guy with a secret vasectomy.

Gender re-assignment? Heck, if you meet a hot chick at the bar, have a makeout session, then you realize that she’s wearing a choker to cover her Adam’s apple and she has a penis, every touch she made was an assault under this theory of consent.

On the show “Floribama Shore,” one of the guys in the bar got upset and threw a cracker someone. Hey, that’s the crime of battery! Another time somebody was trash talking him outside a bar and he slapped the guy. Somebody called the cops and they arrived at the house to arrest him. Happily, the victim dropped the charges.

If a guy makes a crude comment to a girl at the bar, and she slaps him or throws her drink in his face, I think she should be asked to leave the bar, not arrested for battery.

So many things are technically crimes, but society will break down if people start looking at everything as an assault.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Yes, but people lives are ruined when the crash their motorcycles, or fall while rock climbing, or get their skulls cracked by being in the wrong part of an unfamiliar city.

Playing things completely safe increases your chance of living long enough to end up in a nursing home, but its less fun along the way .



UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Tell that to the guy that get metoo'd. His life is ruined even if he is innocent.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

uhtred said:


> Yes, but people lives are ruined when the crash their motorcycles, or fall while rock climbing, or get their skulls cracked by being in the wrong part of an unfamiliar city.
> 
> Playing things completely safe increases your chance of living long enough to end up in a nursing home, but its less fun along the way .
> 
> ...


Taking risks with the foreknowledge that they entail possible death is different than innocent until proven guilty. People that get locked up for crimes they didn't commit illicit more compassion than a guy that chose to dangle by a cord 10,000 feet from ground. Even worse, not even given a chance to defend oneself before being ostracized because of someone with an axe to grind.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Tell that to the guy that get metoo'd. His life is ruined even if he is innocent.



I’m sure I have some tissues around here somewhere.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Re: consent... 

If you’re not sure you have consent, then you likely don’t. 

That’s a good rule to follow.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Marduk said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> > Tell that to the guy that get metoo'd. His life is ruined even if he is innocent.
> ...


Gynocentric men usually do...


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Gynocentric men usually do...


Is that supposed to be an insult? That I love women?


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I have 2 different views of this. I think laws should support "innocent until proven guilty", and if that means a lot o guilty get away, that is the price paid for justice. 

OTOH, even though the laws don't currently work that way, it won't keep me from taking the risk of spending time with women.






UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Taking risks with the foreknowledge that they entail possible death is different than innocent until proven guilty. People that get locked up for crimes they didn't commit illicit more compassion than a guy that chose to dangle by a cord 10,000 feet from ground. Even worse, not even given a chance to defend oneself before being ostracized because of someone with an axe to grind.


----------

