# WS's and Self Esteem



## BeenthereDunThat (Nov 27, 2012)

I often see where issues with self esteem are a common problem with WS's and contribute to affairs. I'm interested to understand how a WS who has identified self esteem issues as a contributing factor in their choice to have an affair, can rationalize the affair given the negative effects the affair has/will have on their self esteem. My thinking surrounds the deception and betrayal aspects of the affair and their negative impact on self esteem. For me it's not logical or rational thinking but maybe I'm wrong.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

They don't think that far ahead. All they can see is that someone new 'wants' them. They get a temporary fix from that. Then, when that wears off, all they know how to do is look for it again.


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## doc_martin (Oct 19, 2012)

The same way a fat person eats cake and cookies. The same way an alcoholic goes back to being a drunk. etc., etc.

I have read that affairs may follow this type of destructive cycle: Communication, followed by withdrawl (by one or both partners), followed by a feeling of rejection, followed by self-loathing, followed by longing (to placate the self-loathing), back to communication.

How true is that? I dunno? But it may help explain it. They hate themselves, but they do it to make themselves "feel better" or "feel loved", but it really makes them feel worse and the only way to feel better again is to go back for more.

I have heard the definition of a true addiction as this: you begin the addictive process for the positive effects it gives. You continue the addiction to avoid the negative consequences. 

Once they begin the affair, I think it's a never ending spiral down. At least that has been my experience...


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## BeenthereDunThat (Nov 27, 2012)

Hope, what you are saying is no doubt true but it seems clear that may WS's harbor guilt while they are in the affair and no amount of mental gymnastics can assuage this. I'm trying to understand how this can help build self esteem as it seems to me it would do the exact opposite.


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## BeenthereDunThat (Nov 27, 2012)

doc_martin said:


> The same way a fat person eats cake and cookies. The same way an alcoholic goes back to being a drunk. etc., etc.
> 
> I have read that affairs may follow this type of destructive cycle: Communication, followed by withdrawl (by one or both partners), followed by a feeling of rejection, followed by self-loathing, followed by longing (to placate the self-loathing), back to communication.
> 
> ...


Doc, it's almost like some sort of temporary insanity. Maybe it's something that can never be understood?


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## doc_martin (Oct 19, 2012)

BeenthereDunThat said:


> Doc, it's almost like some sort of temporary insanity. Maybe it's something that can never be understood?


Well, in a way isn't it? I mean, we have all seen where reason and logic goes right out the window. The "fog" can do a lot of crazy things. Rich man leaves his job and family to join his AP.  Dedicated mother leaves stable home, loving husband, family for jobless ex con. Examples of doing these types of things after one meeting? Knowing someone for a few short days? 

Things that make no sense whatsoever? And at some later time, many things make no sense to the wayward? As if they were possessed, or "like it was someone else"? How many times have we seen that posted or heard? 

Kind of that "Thelma and Louise" moment when they hold hands and hit the accelerator to fly off the cliff. Who does that? They do...


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## BeenthereDunThat (Nov 27, 2012)

doc_martin said:


> Well, in a way isn't it? I mean, we have all seen where reason and logic goes right out the window. The "fog" can do a lot of crazy things. Rich man leaves his job and family to join his AP. Dedicated mother leaves stable home, loving husband, family for jobless ex con. Examples of doing these types of things after one meeting? Knowing someone for a few short days?
> 
> Things that make no sense whatsoever? And at some later time, many things make no sense to the wayward? As if they were possessed, or "like it was someone else"? How many times have we seen that posted or heard?
> 
> Kind of that "Thelma and Louise" moment when they hold hands and hit the accelerator to fly off the cliff. Who does that? They do...


Doc, this would support my suggestion that maybe we can never understand why or how someone can go down the wayward path. I know in my case that my WW rationalized her decision by making herself believe that everything would be fine once some time had passed. It's still amazing to imagine anyone 
thinking like this.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

Mistake #1: Your thinking logically. Your looking in the wrong part of the brain.


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## doc_martin (Oct 19, 2012)

BeenthereDunThat said:


> Doc, this would support my suggestion that maybe we can never understand why or how someone can go down the wayward path. I know in my case that my WW rationalized her decision by making herself believe that everything would be fine once some time had passed. It's still amazing to imagine anyone
> thinking like this.


I wonder if the rationalization comes post facto. I think they get into a situation, do what they want to do, and THEN justify it. I don't know if they have the forsight at that time to rationalize. That would again require some rational thought. I think they just drop all defenses, throw caution to the wind, and then come up with some story *for themselves *to believe about how and why it came about. 

Remember back to college when you drank too much, did a bunch of really stupid things? Well, the stupid things were rolling around in your head the whole time. Being drunk lowered the inhibition to do what you wanted, then after you said "Oh, yeah. I only did that cause I was drunk". But no. You did that cause you WANTED to. You rationalized it as being drunk to take the responsibility of the decision from yourself (at least I did . 

My WW rationalized her affair because she had to get a job. Huh? Oh, the round about to thinking this is 1.I didn't appreciate her staying at home. 2.That made her feel bad about herself and unworthy. 3.POSOM made her feel worthy by telling her she was sexy. Ta-dah! I HAD to sleep with him because he appreciates me! See? Makes perfect sense...


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## Sudden404 (Feb 26, 2013)

doc_martin said:


> My WW rationalized her affair because she had to get a job. Huh? Oh, the round about to thinking this is 1.I didn't appreciate her staying at home. 2.That made her feel bad about herself and unworthy. 3.POSOM made her feel worthy by telling her she was sexy. Ta-dah! I HAD to sleep with him because he appreciates me! See? Makes perfect sense...


What's funny is looking at WS' behavior after the pain lessens a bit with some perspective just like this can only result in one thing:

:rofl:


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

Yup. My WW always had low self esteem, no matter how much I told her I loved her, was proud of her, she was hot, sexy, funny...it's within them, deeply. Now? Her self esteem is even lower because I am divorcing her.


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## doc_martin (Oct 19, 2012)

Sudden404 said:


> What's funny is looking at WS' behavior after the pain lessens a bit with some perspective just like this can only result in one thing:
> 
> :rofl:


That could be an entertaining thread. Although, I think we have seen one similar in the last month or so.

"stupid sh!t your WS said to justify the affair"

:rofl:


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## doc_martin (Oct 19, 2012)

The-Deceived said:


> Yup. My WW always had low self esteem, no matter how much I told her I loved her, was proud of her, she was hot, sexy, funny...it's within them, deeply. Now? Her self esteem is even lower because I am divorcing her.


Agreed, my WW is circling the drain. She lost me. My daughter (preteen) is rapidly figuring things out and it's causing drama between them. My niece (who lives with me) won't talk to her anymore. Her parents are sick over this and are making her feel horrible. Her brother stopped talking to her. Now that our friends know, she is having an awkward time in social situations. 

I don't know if she has lost AP, I doubt it. But now that she is free, that probably won't last long. And even if his marriage breaks up, we know they won't make it (I just hope they get married immediately after my divorce is final to get me out of the alimony).

My STBXW reminds me of the movie "Shallow Hal". The more beautiful she became outside, the inside just became rotten and tainted. I'm sure that is what she sees in the mirror when no one is around to stroke her ego...


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Hope1964 said:


> They don't think that far ahead. All they can see is that someone new 'wants' them. They get a temporary fix from that. Then, when that wears off, all they know how to do is look for it again.


And I'd just add to that, that even if you are telling them how wonderful they are, they'll devalue it with a simple: "But that is what you are supposed to say." Because, you know, you lie... just like they do.


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## BeenthereDunThat (Nov 27, 2012)

Quick, interesting ...... once they convince themselves that it's ok to betray and deceive because they love you but don't love you it really doesn't matter what you say or do. How is this rational thinking?


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

Their behavior has nothing to do with being rational.

And if a WS identifies "low self-esteem" AFTER D-Day as one of the reasons for having been vulnerable to having an affair, it doesn't mean that there was a conscious decision BEFORE the affair to go out and do something deceitful to take care of what was recognized AT THAT TIME as a self-esteem issue.

The self-esteem issue that is recognized NOW may not have been articulated as such then - it may have been, "I need to be appreciated" or I want someone who can't wait to see me" or something like that.

It would take a logical thought process to be able to correctly identify one's own self-esteem problem in some of the vain, immature, and self-centered "needs" that WS's were trying to satisfy when they started cheating on us. If they had recognized it then, they would have been logical enough to deal with it more appropriately, such as by getting IC or MC or seeing a psychiatrist instead of cheating on their spouses.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

BeenthereDunThat said:


> I often see where issues with self esteem are a common problem with WS's and contribute to affairs. I'm interested to understand how a WS who has identified self esteem issues as a contributing factor in their choice to have an affair, can rationalize the affair given the negative effects the affair has/will have on their self esteem. My thinking surrounds the deception and betrayal aspects of the affair and their negative impact on self esteem. For me it's not logical or rational thinking but maybe I'm wrong.


BeenthereDunThat~

This thread makes me laugh. Do you realize that every person who replied is a loyal spouse and not one has been a disloyal spouse? I also note a LOT of really sweeping generalities about disloyals such as "THEY don't do this..." or "THEY don't think of that...." I am going to make a polite request: in much the same way that you would not want me to say things about all loyal spouses as "THEY never put any effort into their marriages" or "THEY never thought they would drive their spouse away"... same here. Okay in real life some loyals may have been that way. Maybe even MY loyal spouse was that way. But that doesn't mean YOU were that way, or MANY loyal spouses were that way, or even that MOST loyal spouse are that way!!! It's very much the same for disloyal spouses. And just you are fully informed I have been both loyal and disloyal. 

Okay to address your question, the very first thing that struck me was that being unfaithful is not usually "rational" and so trying to think of it in terms of "rational" thought is oddly counter-productive. That apple is not orange because it's not an orange; it's an apple. 

Next, in response to your overall question, let me be sure I understand what you're asking. Often disloyal spouses will include some kind of comment about "poor self-esteem" or "low self-esteem" when they explain why they had an affair...or at least that topic is often part of the mix. And your question is, "Well if you have low self-esteem, how is it that adultery seems like a reasonable fix? I mean you wouldn't feel good about yourself if you are a liar, a cheater, hurt your children, break up your family, etc. So that doesn't make sense to me." Is that it basically? 

If so, then I will answer for myself. It's my hope that if disloyals are not flamed here in this thread, that some others may answer as well for themselves! But here's what happened for me. I consider myself medium in the self-esteem department. I had a very rough beginning with physical abuse in my childhood, but I also did a lot of counseling and worked through a bunch of that. My self-esteem took a pretty big hit during my first marriage and when he cheated and left, but again, I took time off and dealt with it and healed for a couple years before I even considered dating. So see what I mean? I'd say my self-esteem was not foolproof but it wasn't low. 

For me, there were a series of events that put me into what felt like a bit of a tailspin. #1 I had a miscarriage so hormones were somewhat wacky (am I pregnant or not?). Then #2 I was grieving the loss of the baby and so was Dear Hubby, but his method of grieving is like a Thinker--he is quiet and analyzes it, and when he's reached a conclusion he talks again. I grieve like a Feeler--I cry and want to hug and whatnot, and he was still analyzing. #3 We had medical testing to see "what went wrong" and found out Dear Hubby had low sperm count, so our chances to have another child...well we were done. [Note to self: Dear Hubby and I have 7 children and we LOVE kids! So this was a major blow.] #4 Perimenopause was starting. So on my end it was a little bit like wave after wave of loss, and some of it included losing chunks of my identity. I could not see who I "was" if I was old, unsexy, and infertile. I mean I have my job, I have interests...but that was so fundamental to how I defined myself, I could not envision myself without it. In addition, my Dear Hubby's way of mourning felt like abandonment to me because I didn't realize he would think about it, reach a conclusion, and come back from behind his wall. To me, it just seemed like "a wall."

Thus, you can see, it wasn't like I thought "You know, my self-esteem is low so I think what I'll do is commit an immoral act to make myself feel better." What I did do was to make some choices that were fairly small but were also down an unprotected trajectory. For example, since Dear Hubby was sort of a wall and silent, I thought "Well I'll do something *I* enjoy" and started this hobby I found really interesting...because it's healthy for people in a marriage to have different interests, right? WRONG!! I mean...they can  but for me that was the very small spot where I got off-track right there. And I don't mean this mean, but that's hardly immoral or unfaithful...just a teeny little step off track into unguarded territory. 

Pretty soon I was meeting people who shared my interest. Pretty soon I was spending more time with those folks in my new interest than I was with Dear Hubby. See? Still not immoral or unfaithful, but it's getting more and more off-track. And the really bad part, is that during this bit of time right here--this is the part that starts the "addictive" fog thing right here. Because I have the people who share my interest and they think I'm really good at it--fun to be with--and enjoy my company because I'm smart....and at the same time Dear Hubby is still analyzing and a wall. Why shouldn't he be? He has no reason to be concerned. I haven't been immoral or unfaithful here. 

THEN, the other man noticed me. I wasn't even looking for someone!! Except that something happened: rather than turning TO MY SPOUSE to get reassurance about being old, unsexy, and infertile...and figuring out together how to address it and how to get through it...instead I turned to this new interest to get my emotional needs met. I think right THERE is were it got unfaithful to me. I owed it to him to only turn to him, and I didn't. And by getting the ooooo's and ahhhhhh's of the group of people, one man noticed me and he hit me like a bomb. He chased, and said all kinds of right things, and wow I was unprepared for that and defenseless. I believed it all and took the bait, hook-line-and sinker. 

Sooo...does that help? See how it's not rational? It's more like a very small deviation off-track, that leads to another and another, and pretty soon you don't even know who you are anymore! For me, I was lucky: I woke up and realized what the heck I was doing and stopped. I spent probably 2 years figuring out how that perfect storm came about and what weaknesses I have and how to react differently when the same/similar thing comes along. You can tell, once I got back on-track, I did get more rational, and that helps a lot to make decisions based on THOUGHTS and the mind rather than feelings, because they are so fleeting! But I know a lot of people who do...they make decisions based on how they FEEL, and they don't realize that being hungry or tired or even eating brats can effect your emotions! LOL


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## BeenthereDunThat (Nov 27, 2012)

hopefulgirl said:


> Their behavior has nothing to do with being rational.
> 
> And if a WS identifies "low self-esteem" AFTER D-Day as one of the reasons for having been vulnerable to having an affair, it doesn't mean that there was a conscious decision BEFORE the affair to go out and do something deceitful to take care of what was recognized AT THAT TIME as a self-esteem issue.
> 
> ...


hopeful, you make a valid point and I fully understand that many WS's don't fully understand that a self esteem problem may be a contributing factor to straying outside their marriage until after the fact. Having said this I believe that crossing the line into an affair and infidelity does nothing positive for their self esteem and it's hard to understand why anyone would go down this path.


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## BeenthereDunThat (Nov 27, 2012)

Affaircare said:


> BeenthereDunThat~
> 
> 
> THEN, the other man noticed me. I wasn't even looking for someone!! Except that something happened: rather than turning TO MY SPOUSE to get reassurance about being old, unsexy, and infertile...and figuring out together how to address it and how to get through it...instead I turned to this new interest to get my emotional needs met. I think right THERE is were it got unfaithful to me.  I owed it to him to only turn to him, and I didn't. And by getting the ooooo's and ahhhhhh's of the group of people, one man noticed me and he hit me like a bomb. He chased, and said all kinds of right things, and wow I was unprepared for that and defenseless. I believed it all and took the bait, hook-line-and sinker.
> ...


After, thanks for the response. I would say you weren't lucky -- you were smart.


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