# Wife decided after ea/pa divorce seperation is the only way help save this pls



## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

My W had an EA/PA she took this week for space.OM is staying with his family. we have 5 kids. She finally admitted she feels leaving is the only option will Divorce busting and 7 steps even work at this point. It wil be a couple of months before she leaves the house. Help please.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

A couple of months? You have more than enough time. Yes, Divorce Busting, Marriage Builder and 7 steps can work, and similar processes can work There are few guarantees in life, but you have a lot of time. Calm down, slow down, take it easy, and work through life one step at a time...


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Tanelornpete said:


> A couple of months? You have more than enough time. Yes, Divorce Busting, Marriage Builder and 7 steps can work, and similar processes can work There are few guarantees in life, but you have a lot of time. Calm down, slow down, take it easy, and work through life one step at a time...


She also made reference that there would not be any second chances and what's the point of a seperation. She still gets upset at the final divorce word but not as much as before. She doesn't want to give me false hope so It will be hard to tell if anything I do has a real effect since she intends to maintain a posotive attitude either way. I'm calm feeling more pain and sadness for my kids when it hits.
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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> She also made reference that there would not be any second chances and what's the point of a seperation. She still gets upset at the final divorce word but not as much as before. She doesn't want to give me false hope so It will be hard to tell if anything I do has a real effect since she intends to maintain a posotive attitude either way. I'm calm feeling more pain and sadness for my kids when it hits.


Every one of her referenced statements above follow the standard script, this is fog talk. Even if the affair has truly ended (and there is no evidence that it has), there is a time after the affair where the cheating spouse goes through a form of withdrawal; the fog lifts slowly. In that time, there is a _great_ deal of doubt as to how to proceed. 

If nothing else, pride is a huge factor: the wandering spouse has to overcome a lot of pride and begin admitting that their actions were wrong, regardless of the reasons. That can be very difficult to overcome.

But there is also strong doubt as to whether the marriage is worth working on. The affair happened for a reason - it is a SYMPTOM, and not the cause of the troubles in the marriage. It is the wrong solution, an immoral choice, but this does not negate the fact that there was something missing in the first place: something that made the choice of infidelity seem to be valid. 

One of the troubles loyal spouses have in working on their marriage is the fact that they work with the idea that the reason they go about improving their own lives is in order to get their spouse back, as it that is the goal. In reality, that is an ideal solution, the goal is to create a life in which any issues the loyal spouse had which contributed to the problems in the marriage are overcome. 

So instead of looking for positive responses in your spouse, and allowing those actions to determine your next move - be proactive. Act! Look to change your own life, regardless of her reactions. As long as you are doing what is right, if she does not respond, this is because she, by inference, does not approve of doing what is right. 

Instead of trying to manipulate your spouse by acting in various ways in order to 'convince' (trick, maneuver, entrap) them into coming back to the marriage - change YOU, and let them see, over time, that what you have to offer is preferable. Allow them the time to make that choice. As long as you are honest, trustworthy, loving, and strong, the fact that they may reject you, or walk away - becomes _their_ loss.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Tanelornpete said:


> Every one of her referenced statements above follow the standard script, this is fog talk. Even if the affair has truly ended (and there is no evidence that it has), there is a time after the affair where the cheating spouse goes through a form of withdrawal; the fog lifts slowly. In that time, there is a _great_ deal of doubt as to how to proceed.
> 
> If nothing else, pride is a huge factor: the wandering spouse has to overcome a lot of pride and begin admitting that their actions were wrong, regardless of the reasons. That can be very difficult to overcome.
> 
> ...


She was more cordial before her 5 days of space this week she says she figure out budgets contacted real estate agents she says its the only option I disagree. I am willing to try she was still somewhat upset when divorce was stated as a sorta fine that's it. She actually grabbed some responsibility by saying this is my situation I created it that hasn't happened until today. She stated she wants to be able to go out and me not ask where she went and have normal afterwork type conversations. I mentally went from first to fifth gear and am done askin anything as hard as it maybe .......see IC this week. I will give this my best. Still looking for input.
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## marksaysay (Oct 15, 2010)

disbelief said:


> She was more cordial before her 5 days of space this week she says she figure out budgets contacted real estate agents she says its the only option I disagree. I am willing to try she was still somewhat upset when divorce was stated as a sorta fine that's it. She actually grabbed some responsibility by saying this is my situation I created it that hasn't happened until today. She stated she wants to be able to go out and me not ask where she went and have normal afterwork type conversations. I mentally went from first to fifth gear and am done askin anything as hard as it maybe .......see IC this week. I will give this my best. Still looking for input.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Im in similar shoes and know all too well the feelings. I'm struggling less and less with the idea of divorce but some days are still tough. I've committed to making changes in my life and will continue to do so, so be encouraged in knowing that youre not by yourself.
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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Also this week OM made closure phone call confirmed by OM spouse my W doesn't want to talk about it again she is acting angry and resentful again. She says she wants all this seperation do I wait on her to take action and see if she really wants that? What's the best way to handle this?
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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Also I know full well not to trust her right now but her behavior is that of an alien not the person I have know for over 20 years. I figure she is either done or just wants to see if I will even possibly be able to go a week without R talk. She wants to avoid it! This will be hard but I am going to doubly back off again and try to be tje supportive person I am wondering if that is what she needs her personality always needed that. She alway kept things in and avoided conflict. Do I observe and report to myself to determine my next steps? Work on R vs seek a D lawyer. She is expecting me to do something far outside my character in a negative sense regarding house kids etc. Because she says u never know what someone will do when they r mad. Let's see how today goes no plans everyones together.
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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

She wants to "set you off" so that you will do something that you will regret later, and she can use that against you in court to get a better settlement. I've heard of D lawyers telling the wife to get in her STBX's face and provoke him into pushing her, then she could the cops and have him hauled out for abuse, just the thing to have the judge see! Look up dirty divorce tricks online, one of them is a "trial seperation", not a legal one with paperwork, and then the judge took that as "willfull abandonment", and punished the H accordingly.

It is my opinion that she knows that she is in the wrong, and she's desperately trying to make you look like the bad guy.

Incidentally, if my wife started acting the way you described, I'd let her go.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

I am approaching letting go was holding onto hope for the kids thanks know her well enough to know her body language she answered an honest no. When I asked if she has spoken to a lawyer. She's using her cell for everytthing it will show up. Thank God for the blue skies and beautiful day today!!!!!
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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

If you do decide to let her go, let her make all the decisions, and don't agree with her that maybe seperation/divorce is a good idea, that can be used against you too-many judges will make their decisions based on who initiated the divorce, and if they think that YOU initiated it, you will lose everything.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

It will be clear she initiated I will get statements from councillors if need be.
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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Keep the point of views coming I don't want to get tunnel vision. You may be rt I don't know we are in counseling and have been addressing underlying issues. I think my time frame for progress is through the holidays more detatching for me if she is serious about finding a place that's time enough and then the kids won't have my mom move out on christmas. I will remain vigilant. Thanks. 20 Plus yrs friends 15 yrs as a couple one big screw up on her part I would be asking for the second chance.
another note to the scenario is I have told her if you need to go then go still no firm action and I believe she has squirreled away enough funds for a short term get out 
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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Well just messes up she broughg out a budget it got emotional she's done doesn't see a reason to try to even work it and pretend around the kids she started mentioning things from 8 years ago and I lost it and said fine if you are that done go now so she is not going to stay here tonight maybe not again.
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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

Ugh...now she can say you "kicked her out."


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

There's no good about this it was emotions I don't know wether or not to say stay home tonight when she gets back with kids the after d day she left for a day and she is making plans to make a move happen. Savings looking for house. I also think as posted she is in a bit of the fog. I want her to stay but. She no matter the outcome needs a break so do we do a legal seperation. We have been seperate in the house for 6- 8. But she is saying the issues go back 10 years my youngest isn't even 6
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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> Well just messes up she broughg out a budget it got emotional she's done doesn't see a reason to try to even work it and pretend around the kids she started mentioning things from 8 years ago and I lost it and said fine if you are that done go now so she is not going to stay here tonight maybe not again.


A large part of the reason things happen in this fashion is _because_ things like this...



> "...and I lost it..."


...occur. 

This is what she is looking for - emotional responses that give her a license to act on her whims. That is exactly why I wrote above:



> "...Calm down, slow down, take it easy, and work through life one step at a time..."


Disbelief, until you back away from your emotions and simply experience them, rather than letting them decide what your next move will be, things will continue to escalate. _The single greatest tool a Loyal Spouse has in their arsenal is *rational calmness*_. 

The single greatest tool the Disloyal Spouse has is YOUR emotional reaction. Even if they come across as 'decided' and calm, its because they have already based their decision upon how you react to situations. This is an excellent example: your wife brings up a budget, and it turns into a fight.

So what was it, bad math? Her demanding too much money, too much time? Why was an EMOTIONAL reaction necessary? Why wasn't a calm examination of the facts, and a calm discussion not preferable? If preferable, why was it not done?

I am not saying I don't understand how this can happen: what I _am_ saying is that if you wish to get your marriage on track, you will _have_ to stop letting your emotions run your life. Imagine how the conversation had gone if you had remained calm - _regardless_ of your wife's statements, or even her emotions! Even if you had disagreed over the content of the budget - YOU remaining calm would not have given her the reason to go the REAL reason she was there: to start a fight - to get things back into that comfortable rut that brought about the situation you are in now. She needs you to keep freaking, whining, complaining, threatening, controlling and casting about - _in order to make her leaving an easy - and even 'understandable' - course of action._

But what happens if you stop all of that? Now all of the sudden she will have to come up with NEW justifications - even in her own mind. Throw that wrench into the works and see how it turns out!

Of COURSE you will still experience emotions! You are a physical being. But because you are HUMAN, you have the ability to CHOOSE to act, _regardless_ of how you feel. It's that choice that makes the difference in your marriage. 

So 1) quit operating under expectations: stop expecting her to do things differently that she does - _especially_ since YOU are not doing anything differently!

2) Quit relying on your emotions to guide you. Make a diligent and concerted effort to switch to acting on a rational course of action. And make the goal of that action to improve yourself. It would do you NO GOOD to make all kinds of plans on how you are going to _make_ her love you, or _make_ her stop cheating, or _make_ her behave in ANY way other than she does now. That is HER CHOICE. The only person you should be working on is you, because it is YOU she is using for the reasons to leave - not her (regardless of what she may say.) She is using YOUR actions to justify hers. Don't give her that option!


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

[ QUOTE=Tanelornpete;207896]A large part of the reason things happen in this fashion is _because_ things like this...
It happened like a darn reflex.......... so is it good to say no you can stay


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


Well said!! :allhail:

Some people here on the forum even warned you about this, so let me give you an example. She comes over with an ABSURD budget, that says she keeps the house, the kids, gets 80% of your take home income, and you get all the bills. I mean--it is imaginative, it's so unrealistic. 

*Scenario #1:* You disagree and call her a name, under your breath. She snipes back. You tell her to stop being "b!tchy". She screams. You scream and say things you don't mean. 
*Result #1:* She has the justification to move and can claim you are abusive. See? She *HAD* to leave you because you were emotionally abusing her! 

*Scenario #2:* You disagree with the budget and state that, calmly. She tries to escalate by calling you a name. You count to 10 and then say, "I disagree and will not engage in a fight with you." She tries again by screaming. You reply with "I would be happy to discuss this with you when you can stay calm and respectful. For now I'm going to the other room so you can cool down." You walk to another room. SHE follows YOU, screaming the whole way. You reply, "I can not control your choices but I can control me and I choose to not fight with you." 
*Result #2*: She was the one behaving abusively, not you. You stated your boundary (not fighting with you), held to it, and she has no justification to move or make any claims against you. Now she has to come up with another tactic and another "justification."


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

It was all emotion seeing the budget confirming she wants to split
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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> It happened like a darn reflex.......... so is it good to say no you can stay


That is completely understandable - reacting emotionally is second nature to pretty much everyone (especially in society nowadays - where we are _trained_ to do so. It is a habit - and one can be replaced. Just like any other habit, it is difficult to replace, but gets easier over time. So don't get too harsh on yourself for slips. It happens.

And sure - it's a good thing to tell her she can stay. In fact, I'd advise you to apologize for the hurt that fight may have caused her (even if she refuses to apologize for the hurt she caused you in the same fight.) The point is to keep your own side of the slate clean, regardless of the crap she carries on hers... 



> It was all emotion seeing the budget confirming she wants to split


Again, that's because reacting emotionally is a habit - and a dangerous one. It is definitely beneficial to people in power - as long as you can be controlled by appealing to your emotions, a politician can get away with pretty much anything. But it hardly ever benefits you! 

Here's the issue: just because you feel something does not give you the right (or privilege) to react by flinging abuse. It doesn't excuse her either - but you can't control that! You can control you. And you'll take a LOT of the wind out of her sails by changing how you act around her.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Apologized calmly to I told her How seeing the budget seperated really upset me. We talked some more she still feels the need to move Out but still wants to buy so that will take time. I told her no more questions I still think she is emotionally wrecked by the affair OM dumped her marriage is in turmoil I can see som her emotional pain. She is beginning to take responsibility for what happened but she doe not like conflict. She leaves us in a relationship as a question saying she does not want us to hate each other and if she ends up single forever and I just visit she can live with that over us hating each other her parents divorced (an affair) and they still resent. She has it in her head that spplitting up is the only way. Putting blame on the marriage up to 10 years ago. I think i stated earlier our youngest is yet to turn 6. I have lost all hope.
I really did not want to raise my kids in a divorced home.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Morning update she stayed at her sisters, not the first time. Home this morning to see kids off to school. I calmly and nicely asked her to copy the budget she did so I can figure out what I need to do, answer it's not much and a big frown when looking down from me.
She talks about it fin though like all is good in the world. She is suppossed to go see a mortgage person today to see what she can afford. We have discussed legal seperation. Comments please.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

Get the legal seperation IN WRITING! Again, she may pull a "dirty trick" on you. True, there is the possibility that this could be an amicable split, but I still have the gut feeling that she is going to do everything she can to make this whole situation your fault, she'll play the innocent victim, and you will lose everything. Get a lawyer, like, YESTERDAY, and start working on covering your 6 o'clock.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Working all ends she says she'll sign house over I am primary caregiver.


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## blueyes (Mar 25, 2010)

Disbelief, sorry for all u r going through. I am a ww. I am in the same boat as your wife by the sounds of it. I am ready to leave but don't have the finances to do so and kids r older adults really. So u think OM has ended it with your wife and she still wants to leave. 

Ok I believe if the OM has ended it then ww is hurting pretty bad right now. Feeling the grieving process, loosing a best friend, sorry for this but that is how I am feeling right now, as I said in the same boat. She thought they had a future and he has picked to stay with wife insted, kills a person inside......

Then her feelings for you::::::: GUILT for putting you through all of this. I'm positive she still loves you, but what were the problems that made the affair happen, did you work on that yet?
These things happen for a reason. I would say try to get her to stay with you as long as you can, use the holidays coming as an excuse and the kids. Do not smother her though and just don't react to her to badly, stay strong to act maybe like you want her to stay but she doesn't have to and you will survive. She needs for u to act strong not wimpy. I know this is difficult on you more so. God I know from watching my own husband having to deal with my emotions. Like I said I'm truely sorry for everyone involved in these things everyone is hurting so bad right now because of it. it's not fair. Get yourselves to councelling , go yourself if need be without her.

Something caused the breakdown of the marriage and until that is addressed she will be confused and not know either to stay and work on marriage or it's done and be on her own. If she thinks you have changed for the better ( depending on what she was needeing from you) she will probably be inclinded to stay. But if nothing has changed and hurt still there, you might as well let her go. I would definetly wait till after xmas and into the new year to make any final decisons as the holidays might just be what you both need.

Best of luck i will be praying for you.


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## blueyes (Mar 25, 2010)

OH F102
You are making me sad with all your messages thinking that his wife is out to screw him over royally. I don't know what happened to you but you need to relax a bit with the negative battle stances. They haven't even seperated yet and your out for a kill. Yes he needs to be aware but not with guns a blazin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

disbelief - my advice is in between blueyes and f102. She is stating she wants to separate, which means a separation agreement. I think it's important to protect yourself legally, but you can do it in a non-combative way. The tendency is to give her whatever she wants in the hopes of reconciliation. However is this doesn't come to pass, things do have a way of degrading quickly and you could find yourself in a bad position. Emotions change over time, legal agreements do not. 

Get an agreement signed. Do it in such a way that it is out of respect for her. Something like, "I understand you are intent on separating. I respect your feelings on this, you know my position is that I hope we can work through it. I'm working on making personal changes regardless of what happens. However, if we are to separate, it is important we have an agreement in writing to formulate an effective coparenting plan. I hope it doesn't come to this."


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Thanks for the posts at the same time what if she is just done. Or are the little signs of dissapointment like when asking for a copy of the budget so I could figure out what I needed to ........signs of supressed desire to stay tthe reality is if she needed to be out her mother has room but W doesn't like it there
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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

I never told him to be combative and go on the offensive-I just told him to protect himself. I've seen friends go through divorces where the W was the one who left, agreed to make this as amicable as possible, then listened to their lawyers and ruined the guy for life, all because he believed her. All I told him to do was protect himself so he doesn't lose his shirt, and to get things in writing. Any judge will tell you that, no matter what side they are on.
And blueyes, no one ever "did" anything to me. My uncle is a divorce lawyer, and the things he could tell you about nice guys who trusted everything their STBXWs told them, only to have them turn on him and destroy him, would make you ashamed to be human.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

I can attest to that, F-102!

One day I awoke to find that my name had been removed from our joint bank account - which contained, among all else, an entire paycheck that had just been deposited: all because I was too nice to protect myself in case such might occur - 'She would never do that,' I told myself.....as it happened...


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Point taken
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## blueyes (Mar 25, 2010)

Like I said, try to get her to stay in the house without being to needy, almost like you don't care, and if she wants to talk just listen, to her don't try to solve her problems, just agree or acknowledge her but just listen. Thats the most important thing. If she was truely done she would be gone already not waiting to buy a house. Just slow and baby steps. good luck


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

10/4 I agree. My exH left one day to move to another state and live with the other woman. He just disappeared and when he left, he wiped out our bank account and closed it. After he was gone a couple days, I began looking into our finances and found out he'd being using our money to pay for things for her and our bills were two or three months behind! 

So it is reasonable to protect yourself from that kind of action--it is reasonable to actually *BE* fair--it is not reasonable to say "she would never do that" and trust her to think of you and be civil. She will do whatever she has to do to get what she wants, and logic and the fact that it will hurt the kids, etc. will not stop her. So shield yourself but don't go on the attack. Make sense?


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Yes makes sense she has been secretive about some stuff that was closer to d day and she was acting like a momma bear with someone trying to take the cubs somewhere inside she believes I am going to turn evil and lash out. She has not short changed the budget she has worked more to be out of the house and is putting that money aside hasn't told me where not sure if I should ask again. Bills r paid I look she does them. Kids r most important to her.
Talking, she only wants to talk about day to day stuff. We shall see thanks everyone this helps
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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

So she deciding to stay with family again tonight ........I said it's up to u. Right wrong doesn't matter at this point???????
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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> So she deciding to stay with family again tonight ........I said it's up to u.


How about "I'm glad you decided to stay with your family tonight - it is so nice to have you around..." 

It goes without saying that 'it is up to her' - as long as that is the content of your communication with her all it looks like to her is that you are unconcerned what she does. THe point here is that at every chance, give her the impression that home and family is the right choice; not out of coercion or emotional extortion, but simply because it is. 

Saying things like 'eh, whatever you want' leaves her the impression you could possibly, if you tried, care less. But not much. And arguing with her demonstrates that you wish to enslave her, control and copmmand her. Instead, point out how happy you are when she makes moral choices, and keep in mind that this is your family, and that you are there to be its strength.



> Right wrong doesn't matter at this point???????


From what I can see of her actions, she is not sure what is right or wrong. She is operating under the idea that her opinions and emotions dictate moral actions - so no, 'right' or 'wrong' make little difference. Part of what we call 'the fog.'


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Thanks I have to re implement the delay and think before responding it was via txt. I will make a similar statement when I get home it is more of what I wanted to say but all I came up with was argumentitive you have a good approach.
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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

disbelief said:


> Thanks I have to re implement the delay and think before responding it was via txt. I will make a similar statement when I get home it is more of what I wanted to say but all I came up with was argumentitive you have a good approach.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just to let you know, the reason for advising stating things differently is part of the entire solution, which is to begin to think and do things differently. The old way didn't work, and the overall change should encompass your entire life, not just the issue you face right now. By changing how you act, you begin to change how you think, which leads to improvement. 

You'll do fine.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Understood
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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

I did want to correct one thing I said: you wrote that your wife was 'staying with family' tonight - I took that to means she was staying home (her actual family) - rather than her 'extended' family (all those outside her marriage. 

Doesn't mean you need to change your response much, at best, I'd make a point somewhere in there that you hope this gives her some peace of mind, or something like that - and always let her know that she is missed at home. (That way you are acknowledging her choice, and at the same time leaving the option of a warm home reception open.)


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Yes with sibling I will make an appropriate statment before she leaves
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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Is part of the fog normal for her to look and behave mad as soon as I get home be defensive about normal talk and then goto a different room? We have had no negative exchanges today
later no response when I mentioned it was nice having her at home. 
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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> Is part of the fog normal for her to look and behave mad as soon as I get home be defensive about normal talk and then goto a different room? We have had no negative exchanges today


It could definitely be the result of some foggy thinking. It could also be an anger issue that she's had for some time, a defense mechanism, etc. In any event, foggy thinking can certainly trigger this sort of behavior.

Best defense: ignore it (yes that's tough) and stay calm, thinking about a response befoire you give it. Keep in mind that the way you want to approach conversation with her is to make sure she feels safe and heard. So, perhaps make an observation - "I see that made you angry...is it something I said?" - and then let her vent it - without argument. 

Doesn't mean you have to agree! All it means _right now_ is that you are giving her some room to get things in the open - and showing her a new side.

Along with this, however, is the idea that you are not there for abuse. If things turn into verbal abuse, excuse yourself from the conversation - go to another room, calmly letting her know that she is free to talk to you, but you choose not to be a part of any abuse.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

So hard to tell if she is truly dead set on leaving
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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

disbelief said:


> So hard to tell if she is truly dead set on leaving
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't worry about that - that will take care of itself one way or another. Your job, should you choose to accept it, is to work on you. This is not dependent upon her actions in the future. It is dependent upon you, right now, doing what you can to strengthen your part of the marriage - which means in the end she will have less and less to complain about, and more and more to observe.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Well I suppose when she starts looking at property it will be the sign she is set on moving now that she know what she could get approved for.
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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Tanelornpete said:


> Don't worry about that - that will take care of itself one way or another. Your job, should you choose to accept it, is to work on you. This is not dependent upon her actions in the future. It is dependent upon you, right now, doing what you can to strengthen your part of the marriage - which means in the end she will have less and less to complain about, and more and more to observe.


Thanks it doesn't take much to go down the no hope road and your words are encouraging no matter the final outcome. I realize the things I have and continue to work on benefit me my children and also fall in line with what she wants they are all little things that make a big deal. Keep on pushing through.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

Stay strong, bro. Sounds like you have the resilience to get through this, no matter the outcome. Too many guys get desperate and start doing things out of panic. You aren't one of them-if not for anyone else, do it for your kids. They need to see you strong and calm now.


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## sigh....again? (Sep 18, 2010)

So sorry to hear. I am in the same place- mine is out on the couch right now. Do the right things: calm down when she rachets up, face hate with love, answer harsh words with softer ones. At the very least, come away feeling like you stayed true to the marriage, to your vows and to yourself.
There is happiness on the other side of this one way or the other. You can start being a better person right now either way, because you always wanted to anyway. Get some exercise, work on something you've been putting off, etc. 
I hope you can fix it, but if you do, do it the hard way that lasts- not the quick way that fizzles. I'm in mid "quick way that fizzles", and that is less fun then the first time around.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Thanks 102 just have to put on a good face sometimes scary is how many of us r going through this I saw 2 old friends yesterday and that added 2 to the list plus 2 more I already new about and this forum. Its hearbreaking. My W has this 1 huge mistake besides that she has been a great mom friend wife lover companion all these years for me its workable her way is to hide from it how to get her to open up to dealing with it besides in counseling? I am backed off lots of deep breaths ......I hope its still the fog I hope it lifts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

sigh....again? said:


> So sorry to hear. I am in the same place- mine is out on the couch right now. Do the right things: calm down when she rachets up, face hate with love, answer harsh words with softer ones. At the very least, come away feeling like you stayed true to the marriage, to your vows and to yourself.
> There is happiness on the other side of this one way or the other. You can start being a better person right now either way, because you always wanted to anyway. Get some exercise, work on something you've been putting off, etc.
> I hope you can fix it, but if you do, do it the hard way that lasts- not the quick way that fizzles. I'm in mid "quick way that fizzles", and that is less fun then the first time around.



Thanks, Her roller coaster of emotions tortures mine I am just trying to make sure our conversations take place in a normal tone. I thinks she thought I was going to pull an R conversation last night We started talking she got the look and then I kept it away from that stuck to the day and some other ongoing issuues NOT R. I just think she is playing nice until she sets up to get out thats what my gut tells me. She spent the night again at her family. Wish I could see the future. I am begining to see why people just divorce, it at the moment seems the easier option. I need to engage my stubborn. OM contacted her this AM also she readily admitted. Know OM and OM spouse well he was mad at me so contacted my W. At least this time she did not deny at all. Still don't like it


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

So I want to know but do I just try to ignore it I know they talke do I confront her and asked if they got together?

I want to know if she is sleeping at her families house because she wants to or because she thinks she is not wanted at home do I ask or just keep it in reverse. Backed off??????
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Ok so I am going with the 180 guide. No questions only necessary daily living ones. It is hard but I am doing it anything else wait on her right.......someone encourage me....... Who knows wether or not it will make a difference i do notice that the important things tend to bring some tearing to her. She is holding back all emotion we are speaking cordially to each other even maintained eye contact during a conversation this morning. Is it the "fog" is she just planning her exit i don't know. 
I still can't find that crystal ball!!!

Frustated!!


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Ok so we have a conversation. About house and kids and it leads nicely to D talk and I ask so that is your only option? She respond what other option is there I said to work at it she sighs head and shoulders down. Does it mean anything?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

May mean that she knows deep down inside that it is still an option, but feels she doesn't have the strength to do so. She may be looking for the quick and easy solution.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

She is the type to bury her head in the sand vs deal with something I would think her things would be making there way into boxes if she were dead serious the resentment anger bringing up this is what is wrong with marriage comes out of her even a couple times today.....time will tell we shall see how I tolerate
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Side note does it mean anything that she just volunteers where she going vs not saying anything even last week? Asked when she would be home because I wanted to go out and she told me her plans? ???
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

What things mean is unknowable. And in one moment it may have meant something and in another it means nothing. Until she says I want to come back into the marriage keep on your path.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

So we just had a talk about the A and a little of how we our marriage got there. It was a polite conversation she now looks distressed but probably because the reality is she is done, I don't think any method will bring this back unless you with more experience believe otherwise.
The conversation consisted of how she had been unhappy for a long time her body language response to 5 years would be that long. She says that she thought it was just the way it was suppssed to be so she did not speak up all that time. I told her if she only had i would have worked to fix it. She is not over the OM she is not in love with me anymore. I don't think 180's will do here. She wants to find a place and move out she believes the children will not miss her, she doesn't see any other way. Says she wasn't happy for years and I should have seen it, but how do you pick up on these things with a W whose personality is quiet not super loud ROFL there's little to detect. So Really is there a chance to bring her back or do I just face it and hold her off until after the holidays to tell the children.
My last glimmer of hope is burning out.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Well what next anybody got anything. Terrible sleeping night. Is it part of the fog the withdrawal she finally admits her feelings but goes back to all the bad in our marriage that was never. Directly complained about all those years. But yet she gives a real hug her facial expression frustration.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Well this kind of a journal at the moment her resentment and anger is full force this morning I am again evil all the negatives is it her confronting emotions the fog. I really need some input here. Thanks everyone for your past posts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

Could it be she's borderline personality disorder? It sounds like there is an imbalance.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

RWB said:


> Disbelief,
> 
> Hold on, it ain't over til it's over. Even then there are possibilities... My brother and his wife divorced after 10 years of marriage, were apart for 5 more, re-married and have been together ongoing 20 more. Life can be quite messy.
> 
> ...


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

F-102 said:


> Could it be she's borderline personality disorder? It sounds like there is an imbalance.


Ther prob is a depression factor at this point youngest is 6 and there is delayed post partum and her high stress job is new within the last 3-4 years and I guess let's add the factors family death within 2 years change in jobs for both of us parenting stress financial stress. He's historically not outgoing not confident I guess maybe low self esteem her parents divorced .....affair ....married and, mother young. Our age 37. Yeah she has had antidepressants before but if I mention it now complete denial. All is good she found her happines in the A.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Disbelief - some basic guidelines affair care has been giving you.

BACK OFF - quit talking about the D until she has made a decision. I told my WW I wouldn't discuss D until 6 months minimum and probably a year had passed. Backing off gives her time to think without the explosions of arguments. ENGAGE BRAIN BEFORE OPENING MOUTH! Walk out of the room, leave theouse, whatever you have to do. WIth both of your emotions at a boil over point, nothing good can come of it.

Quit focusing on the next day or last conversation, focus on what you want a year from now. Print out the love busters questionaire and ask her to fill it out. Then look for the samll pieces of it you can address alone or immediately. Remember as affaircare told me, it will be full of poisoned black painted comments on you. Don't take them to heart. You cannot change the past, only the future,


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

First off, regarding the possibility of 'mental' disorders' (i.e., depression, borderline personality.) Depression is a natural reaction to high stress situations (and your wife is experiencing a whole lot of them!) This passes over time; the body naturally produces hormones, etc., that eventually will lead to an end to the condition. Only in rare (very rare) instances is a body incapable of producing the correct hormones - in that case (true clinical depression) then additional medicine is necessary.

BUT - and here is the issue: that requires _extensive_ blood hormone level testing - over a period of time. Curiously, most doctors would rather supply a drug to mask the problem - rather than actually testing the patient's blood levels for a week or two to find out if the medicine is actually necessary. 

And the problem is that as long as the drug is artificially stimulating the body to produce the necessary chemicals, the body shuts down its own natural ability. Self-perpetuating chemical dependency (known as 'addiction') - great for Pharmaceutical companies, not so great for the patient, who spends life in a drugged out zombie-state.

This goes for borderline personality disorder as well - to see if any such condition exists! ONLY if there is a blood chemical imbalance can this be effectively treated chemically. Otherwise, the condition is a handy means of excusing bad behavior ("...well, I can't help it...I'm sick...let me kick you again!...")

So it is best to stay away from drug cures in order to find solutions - without the correct diagnosis, the patient is essentially turned into the very thing they have been 'diagnosed' as being! (Again - goldmine for Pharmaceutical companies!)

People tend to do things that end bad feelings. The problem is that they tend to take the easiest, and fastest, route. An affair is a solution that is often chosen - without facing the reality of the situation (facing each stress factor, acknowledging it, giving it time to heal, coming to terms with it, etc.) - the faster 'cure' is sought. Some people turn to drugs to end the misery (alcohol, pot, etc...) Regardless: what is done is an attempt to fix the problem - an incorrect way!

Trouble is: the chosen routes create their own NEW set of problems that require ANOTHER solution....and on and on. 

Reality is: the situations have to be faced squarely, honestly and diligently, no drugs, no quick fixes, etc., etc..

disbelief: I am giving you this information because of what 8years wrote above:

ENGAGE BRAIN BEFORE OPENING MOUTH!

When you can really start thinking about this whole thing - you'll start becoming more and more attractive to your wife, who is _casting about looking for ANYTHING that will make some of this easier._ When you are the calm spot in the storm, a strong, solid pillar upon which to cling - at that point your wife will begin to gather some hope that things may be OK.

She did not find happiness in her affair! That's why she is thinking about separation! She is looking for solutions - she thinks THAT will solve it! She may have to actually get there to find out that THIS TOO, is not the solution.

But in the meantime: YOU become calmer, more reliable, stronger, more attractive. There is a great deal of hope for your marriage - and much of it stems upon you changing!


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Thank you for the replies. Just FYI last nights conversation was very cordial and calm. It did have on heightened moment but not even raised voices. I have some alone time the next few days I am going to reflect. I am going to reread things. 
The conversation last night in retrospect now that I have let some emotions out on my own today I think maybe allowed her to get some stuff out, I hope. She has not been willing to talk about it at all, the A. I didn't ask any R or A questions to begin with. It began with the housing conversation and I asked what would make her happy and she kind of went on about 10 min. We ended on an OK note she cried a little when saying the A was her happiness. I started to say how that was without kids and so on and she went right on the defensive. She said she is not over the A not over him. I asked if seperation is still the only way she said what other way is there I said to work at it her body language slumped and sighed. 
She did get defensive about a D comment I made so I recognize I need to increase that filter in my head and Back off from 90% to 220%. Very hard to do. Her talk of taking care of things is that she can still do the bills make sure we are all set pick up the kids when she is not working. Like it's no biggie just a divorce but still taking care of each other.
I don't know I will heed your advice I keep rereading the 180 list that has helped. Maybe these next few days of her with kids and me alone will help both of us. I do not expect a sudden change. 


Goal : Back Off More! 
Whats best for my kids still makes me happy!


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## WDG (Nov 16, 2010)

I don't like the back off goal myself DB. My situation is hardly different from yours, and here is what I'm doing:

1 I spend a lot of time reading and thinking. Doesn't make me feel good so probably I'll drop this activity.
2 I try to find little ways to connect to my wife that aren't invasive or long.
3 I try to talk to my wife every day for at least 30 minutes now. If it's to personal I just listen and support. I -do- not really discuss us because I find it futile. She is not on the same page as me.
4 any time I get a glimmer of something that sets me off I focus my entire mind on something that makes me happy. Screw those bad memories.
5 I am starting my body revamp ; I might as well look good on the outside, and when all this started that was the first thing I dumped. Mistake.
6 I do not back off. I am just not being invasive and pushing (much dude I know it's hard)
7 I pray but that's just me. Find your own rock.
8 I don't loose hope, ever. Time for that when we are dead. We are men. Even if the relationship dies, that fact will remain.
9 I use baby steps. I'm facing what I did and figuring out how to make it so they don't matter.

Some examples for me ... You can get more time if you think it'll help. Start large and break it down to the smallest part. It's like getting your foot in the door. There is always something so small that you can get it. Try it. Don't pound this because if you don't do something about the situation you are just ****ing with her. Not cool you will pay later. Don't focus on all the bad stuff from the past man, that'll burn you to. Reconnect with your wife, stabilize yourself, and create an environment that is a good spot for you both. And all that stuff about thinking about the OM? Man up and use your own imagination to erase that from your mind. Be 200% positive.

I'm no authority this is all my opinion, but the truth is that when I was single? No woman could say no. There's a line waiting for my wife to go. Why can't I get my **** together? Because I lost my edge ---- my negatives beat me down and I started fixing instead of living. That's my story though. I may fail here with my wife, but if I do it'll be in a blaze of glory that they will make movies like Tristan and Isolde. You see what i am saying? In truth if I fail it'll be because my will and my mind aren't strong enough to be the man she married.

Good luck DB, be strong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WDG (Nov 16, 2010)

And dude, drop the mental issues chain. That is the wrong road. Own this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

There may come a time when you should just let her have what she wants. It seems that nothing you do will convince her that staying is an option. She just wants to be a carefree, swinging single again.


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

This article may help you and her:

SurvivingInfidelity.com - Support for those affected by Infidelity

Also this:

SurvivingInfidelity.com - Support for those affected by Infidelity


Her ambivalence is normal. The OM represented a fantasy where she was loved without any of the baggage of real life. She's mourning the loss of that and dealing with a lot of shame.


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## WDG (Nov 16, 2010)

I don't accept that makes me think somebody read or watched eat pray love and totally misunderstood the story.

Who does not want to bust out of misery and being caged?

So, make a good home and then see. Be excellent again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Thank you all your posts are very much needed at this time. I have time completly to myself for a couple days for the first time since d day so maybe it will help.

The thing is I thought we were good all this blind sided me now she says and maybe it's the rewriting that things were bad for years. We hardly argued. Discussed issues and resolved them I thought turns out she didn't get over alot of things and never let me know. Can't fix that can only work on what is to come. But it feels like these things need to be addressed to get the anger and resent out.

I choose backing off more because she withdraws when faced with conflict the nicer I am the more she has talked. The only thing I have on my side is time because of how she forsees moving out. I said after the holidays and she needs to find a place. 
Time will tell.


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## WDG (Nov 16, 2010)

Dude I'm calling you on that. You either knew things were decaying or you were totally checked out. People don't shift from happy to divorce. You have to start owning this.



disbelief said:


> Thank you all your posts are very much needed at this time. I have time completly to myself for a couple days for the first time since d day so maybe it will help.
> 
> The thing is I thought we were good all this blind sided me now she says and maybe it's the rewriting that things were bad for years. We hardly argued. Discussed issues and resolved them I thought turns out she didn't get over alot of things and never let me know. Can't fix that can only work on what is to come. But it feels like these things need to be addressed to get the anger and resent out.
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## marga88 (Jun 17, 2010)

Give her time, the more you force yourself, the more she backs out. I hope things will turn out well for you in the end.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

WDG said:


> Dude I'm calling you on that. You either knew things were decaying or you were totally checked out. People don't shift from happy to divorce. You have to start owning this.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OK I think that was my abridged statement via mobile. We had our roughest time over the summer. Extended disagreement and began counseling but when d day came and the time frames were revealed not by my wife other sources. It turns out the EA began long before there were any signs of her being distant or off beat in fact during said time frame we were getting along quite well or so I thought. Things only got tense over the summer and I thought it was because of the disagreement.
Last night I said to the effect please don't tell me you have not been unhappy going back 5 years? She had an odd body language response no verbal. Our youngest is not 6 yet. So how messed is that. If you ask someone if they are ok and they say yes it means yes. If you treat them well, compliment them do the occaisional little thing to show them you care, remind them how much you love them everyday, just the way they are, keep a happy home with the normal disagreements and you never hear I am unhappy I do not like ____________...... Because the things she did complain about I fixed, not on her schedule because we r different but I did. We have had alot of life changes in the last 5 years. Am i perfect no did I do things she did not like yes. When i figured it out or she finally spoke up I stopped. But overall we seldom argued would discuss issues come to a resolution. She mostly got whatever she wanted, we were a team we would say hey can I__________? Very seldom next to never did I feel so strongly I said no. 

She never never said I am unhappy Are you Ok was always yes, Lets go out on a weekend was always I don't want kids with a sitter or to bother a relative. Now it's we did not go out enough. If she had ever straight up even once said i am unhappy i would have been all over that. She says she hinted and the hints were in the form of can you help clean up _____________...

Like i said i wasn't perfect neither was she but there was no sign she was at that point especially with the who it turned out to be. I thought we were having an extended argument. She took the relationship on a path and left us me and the kids behind and looking back at least one shopping day rings a bell of oddness and she was out I was home with kids so.........I guess thats a venting

At least a year prior to this all would be the exception we had an argument I said lets go to counseling she absolutly refused.

The things she has actually complained about now i have acknowledged, some i had already changed 6-12 months or longer ago. The others keeping on top of. She still is in the negative negative of our M and that roller coasters also. OM and W kept good game faces in front of me all summer. Know OM all to well.


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## WDG (Nov 16, 2010)

ok DB ... that's better, but you need to straighten yourself up.

1. own this crap, completely. not take blame, just ownership.
2. stop talking about the past, it'll just beat you like nothing else.

Open your ears and your heart to her when she talks. Let the pain come if it has to, but just LISTEN for once. Don't try to say anything. Ask questions. Think about what she's telling you. Internalize it if you want to, or not. Accept her for who and what she is, just like you did when you first met her.

DB good luck with this man. Get your head on straight. I can't speak with authority because I personally did everything wrong up until now, but I think the fact that I did that and it's still limping along is proof that you can do ANYTHING. I did all the crazy **** suggested in this thread for example ..... stupid crazy ****. .






disbelief said:


> OK I think that was my abridged statement via mobile. We had our roughest time over the summer. Extended disagreement and began counseling but when d day came and the time frames were revealed not by my wife other sources. It turns out the EA began long before there were any signs of her being distant or off beat in fact during said time frame we were getting along quite well or so I thought. Things only got tense over the summer and I thought it was because of the disagreement.
> Last night I said to the effect please don't tell me you have not been unhappy going back 5 years? She had an odd body language response no verbal. Our youngest is not 6 yet. So how messed is that. If you ask someone if they are ok and they say yes it means yes. If you treat them well, compliment them do the occaisional little thing to show them you care, remind them how much you love them everyday, just the way they are, keep a happy home with the normal disagreements and you never hear I am unhappy I do not like ____________...... Because the things she did complain about I fixed, not on her schedule because we r different but I did. We have had alot of life changes in the last 5 years. Am i perfect no did I do things she did not like yes. When i figured it out or she finally spoke up I stopped. But overall we seldom argued would discuss issues come to a resolution. She mostly got whatever she wanted, we were a team we would say hey can I__________? Very seldom next to never did I feel so strongly I said no.
> 
> She never never said I am unhappy Are you Ok was always yes, Lets go out on a weekend was always I don't want kids with a sitter or to bother a relative. Now it's we did not go out enough. If she had ever straight up even once said i am unhappy i would have been all over that. She says she hinted and the hints were in the form of can you help clean up _____________...
> ...


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

disbelief - it's entirely likely that you didn't do anything "wrong". She may have had needs you weren't meeting, which she didn't/wouldn't communicate, she may have felt sad/distant/unloved, etc, but you also aren't a mind reader. It's normal to replay your life to try and make sense of it. 

My wife, now, tells me that I didn't really do anything wrong, though at the time and through the subsequent number of years she held on to many resentments that sound like what your wife is saying. She let them build up and held on to every negative thing I'd said to her over our 16 years together. When OM came along, she felt validated and attractive and confident in a way she couldn't feel with me. 

At least at first. During our second separation, when the luster of OM had worn off and she was truly single... a single mom, trying to date, and manage a household without being propped up constant attention from OM, or from me (during our first reconciliation), she started to realize I wasn't that bad. She started to understand that this whole thing was about her perceptions and that not communicating to me was more her doing than my failings. 

But like you, I'm painfully aware of my shortcomings and what I did to contribute to this mess.

The point is that taking or assigning blame for relationship things is a dead end. However, the affair is a deliberate choice to deceive that has totally muddled her thinking. She may never think clearly about you again. She may always hide behind her rewriting of your maritial history. It's dependent on her willingness to be really honest with herself. 

You can model that to her, but you can't control how she'll turn out.

That's why you can only work on yourself and your own happiness.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Seeking, your points are dead on in my case. She stopped talking about certain things because she did not like how I was responding but never communicated that instead she just stopped. Yes I have/had/will have faults. We all do. She may have checked out a couple years ago or it is the rewriting because we had some good happy times the last couple years. 
It almost seems like it's EA/PS coupled by midlife crisis and ILYBNILY 
She is slowly dropping remarks taking responsibility for her end of the situation. Thinking back even in a normal disagreement she would have trouble admitting when she was wrong so this would be the extreme. 
I will take in all the advice, try to apply it when it fits a scenario. Hopefully she is not closed off to me completly.

Thanks


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

WDG,
Thnx, Yeah I am bad at the just listen thing have improved but needs improvement still. A couple days mostly alone then she works 4 so pretty much won't see her so maybe this will help. However I suspect that she will not change her ming about finding a place.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

You know, I think there are a lot of things being said here that are being said "one way" and being heard "another way" so I want to reiterate and maybe re-explain some things. 

#1--I can't speak for him, but I believe when 8years said "Back Off" he didn't mean "please be a doormat and let your cheating spouse treat you any way she feels like" because that's a disaster. But so is chasing someone around like a needy puppy constantly picking open a wound! Constantly clinging and wanting to have "relationship talks" is not going to fix this, nor will it make her want to stay in the marriage. 

When we say "back off" what we mean is more like this--put yourself in your wife's shoes. You made a gigantic, huge, costly mistake. You got caught and now feel like a heel. Part of the time you cry because you did such an awful thing and now everyone knows; the rest of the time you scream at people because you are defending yourself and don't want to be reminded all the time! She made the choice--that's true--and it is reasonable for her to experience the consequences. But what will catch her eye and be helpful is two things: 1) Showing some confidence in yourself and 2) Expressing some care for her like a best friend--connecting like that as if you value her (knowing that the connecting as lovers will grow out of that friendship and caring). 

On her side, she has all the puzzle pieces and she sees the whole picture--and all at the same time it makes her sick but she also misses it! It made her feel cared for! You, on the other hand, only have a piece here and a piece there, and you can't see the whole picture. You keep struggling to see the whole picture. So share that analogy with her and let her know that now you get it--that giving you more pieces hurts her because she has to look at the picture again. But at the same time, not having the whole picture hurts you. Then propose that you two reach an agreement that would work for both of you: you agree to ask her only ONE question a day, and she agrees to answer that ONE question fully and honestly. Then tomorrow you two could agree on how long to ask the questions (maybe 30 days or 60 days). That way she knows it won't be an ongoing Inquisition or feel like an interrogation, and at the same time you'll feel like she's not avoiding you or being dishonest.  

#2--I do realize this is a hard concept to grasp, but when she says she hasn't been happy for 5 years, there are two things happening there all-at-once. There is a kernel of truth in that statement--but it is also likely somewhat re-written so she can justify to herself why she would commit adultery. After all, if someone is in misery and long-suffering "for years" or their spouse was "abusive"...why then it's okay right? So there's truth there but it's like magnified. 

I'll give you an example. Your daughter is not quite 6 you say, but she says she's been unhappy for 5 years. So not too long after your daughter was born, she wanted to return to work and you wanted her to be a SAHM. She didn't really want that, but didn't really let you know that she felt like that because what kind of mom doesn't want to stay at home? So she agrees...but her heart is a little resentful. As each day goes by, she feels more and more trapped, more and more cut off, lonely, and frustrated because she "doesn't love her own child like she ought to." Even adding one blade of grass every day will eventually, in five years, become a pile of grass! So she it's not like she was miserable enough to say something, but at the same time it was like slowly boiling under the surface. 

THEN your daughter goes to kindergarten and she gets a little PT job! Huzzah! She gets to get out a little and not feel too guilty and she feels a little bit good. And someone at work appreciates her work. A man. Then she notices him and decides she'll work EXTRA HARD for him...and maybe dress up just a little. At the same time, you keep pressuring her to quit her little job and she doesn't really WANT to! So she yells, you two fight...and she's comparing the OM who's complimenting her and telling her how GREAT she is, to you who's fighting with her and telling her to stop doing something that makes her feel good. That doesn't go on very long until she begins to say to herself, "You know...I've been miserable for years! Why am I putting up with this?" 

See how there's a kernel of truth in that example? She should have told you the truth and said, "I really do not want to stay home. I feel too cut off and lonely here" but she didn't, did she? And as it grew and boiled under the surface she should have been transparent and respectfully requested some change to meet her needs--right? But at the same time, when she did try, you didn't know and you'd work long hours, leave her home alone with all the housework, not say thank you (after all, if she washes your clothes, she's not your servant!), and yell about it or make her feel guilty (or whatever) ... 

AND THAT is the kernel of truth. See it? That is the stuff you need to own and say, "Yep that was me. She needs someone to sit an hour or two a night and talk to her!" and then make the time to do that for her.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Affaircare,
Understood, Thank You. 
I have heeded your advice from past posts and i am not clinging. In the first couple weeks i was so rt there that I think she is expecting that. Now I will not go out of my way to say hi like pre d day when i would welcome her home open arms. When we eventually cross paths in the hous we exchange hellos. She is much more stand offish with me. Alot of the rest of what you said I can apply o my sith as well. Thanks again more to learn for me.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

blueyes said:


> Disbelief, sorry for all u r going through. I am a ww. I am in the same boat as your wife by the sounds of it. I am ready to leave but don't have the finances to do so and kids r older adults really. So u think OM has ended it with your wife and she still wants to leave.
> 
> Ok I believe if the OM has ended it then ww is hurting pretty bad right now. Feeling the grieving process, loosing a best friend, sorry for this but that is how I am feeling right now, as I said in the same boat. She thought they had a future and he has picked to stay with wife insted, kills a person inside......
> 
> ...


So Blueeyes what would you from your position recomend for posotive interactions? Compliments? The casual touch to remind her I am there for her, shoulder pat on back etc? Hug if she needs/wants? She is soooooooo closed off. Distant. She doesn't jump at my touch like weeks ago and has actually hugged back. 

Does the power of touch come into play here?

After she stayed away those couple of nights she came back without mentioning it and without me asking. She said the other night she was feeling less welcome here i told her that is because she is spending so much time out of the house. I reminded her she was still welcome. It's painful I do not like the situation but I genuinely care. And it just hit me that if she absolutley needed out she does actually have an option just not her #1 way to do it.

I miss my wife our family life as it was.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

Seems that she is only beginning to realize the real situation. For years, she never told you things weren't so great. But like most women, she didn't realize that when you say to a man that everythings okay, he takes your word for it. Men simply do not have the telepathy that women have to understand that "Everything's fine" really means "I SAY that it's fine, but I want you to talk with me until you can figure out what the problem is."
It may, or may not, have dawned on her that for years she had opportunities to make things better, but she blew it.
It sounds like maybe the best-not the only-way to make her realize this is to let her get a place. It will probably be a case of her finding out-the hard way-that the old saying of "Be careful what you wish for..." is way too true.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

102 Sadly especially for my kids i am starting to sway this way. She is very short with me on the phone, however and she knows i look at the phone record. She spent 20 min on the phone with OM this AM. Granted right now they are about 500 mile apart and she is with all the children that does not make it better. I am not quite sure how to handle this the kids being my number 1 priority i want her in the house for Christmass. They both say it is over. But she is not over it. OM continues to tell his spouse he wants to work it out. This is so high school, I can't stand it. Things to do here.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Tanelornpete and Affaircare, in your experience if the WW need some sort of closure is it ever beneficial to ignore the knowlege of those contacts? Should I ask her to please tell me before i discover it? I would prefer no contact as I am sure would OM spouse. But in my W's current state of mind I do not think she is up for that disclosure I think she would shut down even more. There is another logical reason for a phone call at the time it occurred but those reasons i do not want to post. But that reason would need to be cut off OM could find someone else to call, if it is why the call was made.


So should I bring up the call or just pocket it?
Should I just monitor the situation as a form of self defense?

For some reason this is becoming less painful when I think about the big D and me for my kids I cry.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

Disbelief, your marriage day was the expression of closure. On THAT day you and your wife vowed to end it all with everyone else, and made that announcement public. 

There is never a need for someone addicted to a drug to do it 'one last time' to say 'goodbye'. They need to quit. Period. 

If there is to be any 'closure' it must be in the form of a No Contact letter that your wife writes, you read and approve, and then YOU mail. That is all.

You write that 'in your wife's current state of mind' you think she would shut down even more. Possibly. She will need some time to process and grieve. But just because she 'shuts down' does not infer permanence. It means you have time to work on yourself without fighting, etc. It means that she will have some time to observe you, to see how you've gotten stronger. 

There is no reason for two cheating lovers to contact to one another. Ending contact is a consequence of cheating, and it is the best way to get help get past the 'addiction' between the two. Just like a drunk does not keep taking a shot on occasion 'for those special times' - so a cheater does not return to the one with whom they cheated. 

My advice; stop making excuses for your wife's deplorable behavior!


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

disbelief - you should tell the OM's wife, as she has a right to know. Don't be a wimp about this. Breaking no contact hurts his wife as much as it hurts you. 

AffairCare has excellent articles on this. Read them both:

Seven Steps To Ending An Affair?

Sample Consequences Letters


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Thank you both, Not being defensive I am not making excuses for her just taking trying to decide how to act on it. I do not find it excusable. Since the closure call last week they have been in contact at least 3 times. She knows I know or she is completly dellusional. He knows we know.
I think as backing off and that time with the kids is good for her which could be good for me i will not address this rt now.
I will discuss with OM spouse after he goes to work. I am trying to educate her on your principles as well. I highly doubt she would agree to a No contact letter right now. We have a counseling appointment coming up, counsellor is middle of the road would that be a better time to address it? 
We were suppossed to bring real budget and seperation plan. 

If I cause conflict in her weekend with the kids that will go against me.
I still find it inexcusable, chances are he called her that is what has been happening phone record will not show that until later. Will show OM spouse NC letters.

Thank you, 1000 times.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

It's been my experience that the no contact letter or phone calls saying such are just grandstanding for the betrayed spouse.

Hardly ever result in full-stop contact.

It was my mistaken belief at the time my wife did that call that her tears and apologies were genuine. 

They were not! It was all a ploy to go to deep cover about their affair.

Be careful.

Verify better than I did.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> It's been my experience that the no contact letter or phone calls saying such are just grandstanding for the betrayed spouse.
> 
> Hardly ever result in full-stop contact.
> 
> It was my mistaken belief at the time my wife did that call that her tears and apologies were genuine.


That is entirely dependent upon how the letter is written and delivered. A good no contact letter will be constructed in such a way that the Other Person will not wish to remain in contact. It should be designed to kill the relationship. That is why we offer sample letters - and make it clear that it must be approved by the loyal spouse - and mailed by the loyal spouse.

There are no guarantees - but it is extremely effective. I've seen it work many times. This completely contradicts your statement that they 'hardly ever result in full-stop contact'. 

I have seen people do _semi_ no contact letters, or texts, or phone calls - these USUALLY result in what you are stating. That's because they are written with such inferences as 'we can't talk right now' or 'ix-nay on the ontact-cay" - or they are written as humble, loving apologies to the Other Person that such pain has to happen, yadda yadda yadda...


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Tanelornpete said:


> That is entirely dependent upon how the letter is written and delivered. A good no contact letter will be constructed in such a way that the Other Person will not wish to remain in contact. It should be designed to kill the relationship. That is why we offer sample letters - and make it clear that it must be approved by the loyal spouse - and mailed by the loyal spouse.
> 
> There are no guarantees - but it is extremely effective. I've seen it work many times. This completely contradicts your statement that they 'hardly ever result in full-stop contact'.
> 
> I have seen people do _semi_ no contact letters, or texts, or phone calls - these USUALLY result in what you are stating. That's because they are written with such inferences as 'we can't talk right now' or 'ix-nay on the ontact-cay" - or they are written as humble, loving apologies to the Other Person that such pain has to happen, yadda yadda yadda...


We had a very complete no contact letter and a phone call.

I will not take responsibility for it's failure. It really would not have mattered what was written or said. The intent was not there on her part, nor on his.

It's kind of offensive to blame shift like that.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Like a thief if they really want the op more I suppose they are going to no matter the cost
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> I highly doubt she would agree to a No contact letter right now.


A No contact letter is one of three conditions we suggest (rather strongly) - in order to remain in the marriage. They are non-negotiable - just like if you get married, making a vow to be married is non-negotiable. If you don't make that promise, the marriage does not occur! 

See this thread for the three conditions.



> We have a counseling appointment coming up, counsellor is middle of the road would that be a better time to address it?


Sounds like you might need to find another counselor. This is your right, you are an equal partner in this relationship. Find one that is pro-marriage, not a divorce counselor! Why use one that is doing everything possible to harm your marriage? 

Regardless - are you asking if you should bring up a no-contact letter when you are at the counselor's office? Why?

Keep in mind that there are THREE, not just one, condition that must be met in order for the marriage to continue. 



> If I cause conflict in her weekend with the kids that will go against me.


How? Also: is not continuing to make love to her lover also not conflict that goes against her?


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Affaircare earlier on u mentioned how my W may have realized she had missed out on pointing out what was wrong in our M I just realized that I directly stated that the other night and have weeks ago in counseling.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

michzz said:


> We had a very complete no contact letter and a phone call.
> 
> I will not take responsibility for it's failure. It really would not have mattered what was written or said. The intent was not there on her part, nor on his.
> 
> It's kind of offensive to blame shift like that.


I really apologize if I came across as 'shifting blame' - I was objecting to the statement that these things 'hardly ever work' - when I've seen it work more often than not. 

If you re-read my post, you'll see that I did not address your situation at all, in any way. I mentioned the kinds of 'no' contact letters I've seen fail. 

And, I mentioned that there are no guarantees. 

If you take this as personal, I can do nothing about it, but again, I did not intend to 'shift' blame. As a matter of fact, I made no assertion of responsibility at all!

The other issue that must coincide with the idea of no contact is the willingness of the cheating spouse to actually be willing to work on the marriage (this is why it failed in your case) - the no contact letter is not designed to FORCE the affair to end - it is designed to REINFORCE the end of the affair - after it's been dissolved, voluntarily, by either the cheating spouse or the Other Person. It is set up to make sure that avenue is never open again.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

I was considering a new councillor. And. Was asking if I should bring up the nc letter at the consel appoint because of third partt to mediate conversation she is good for communication but not jump on and fight for marriage
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Tanelornpete said:


> I really apologize if I came across as 'shifting blame' - I was objecting to the statement that these things 'hardly ever work' - when I've seen it work more often than not.
> 
> If you re-read my post, you'll see that I did not address your situation at all, in any way. I mentioned the kinds of 'no' contact letters I've seen fail.
> 
> ...


I saw what you wrote. Although you made a caveat regarding no guarantees, you also go on to say that the failure of the letter is the imperfection of it or the delivery of it.

This is a pointing of the finger at the BS. That whole "entirely dependent..." phrase.

And I quote:



Tanelornpete said:


> That is entirely dependent upon how the letter is written and delivered. A good no contact letter will be constructed in such a way that the Other Person will not wish to remain in contact. It should be designed to kill the relationship. That is why we offer sample letters - and make it clear that it must be approved by the loyal spouse - and mailed by the loyal spouse.
> 
> There are no guarantees - but it is extremely effective. I've seen it work many times. This completely contradicts your statement that they 'hardly ever result in full-stop contact'.



I don't want to thread jack further. However, I will say again that my whole POINT was that you can do all these things RIGHT and it doesn't work because the cheaters anticipate your wish to believe it is over and act to make the deception continue so the affair can.

So one must VERIFY far better than I did or even imagined was needed.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Before we continue, I would like to clarify something about the No Contact Letter. 

The letter will be effective when it's well-written, when the Disloyal is actually serious about ending the affair, and the Loyal is actually serious about working on the marriage. The Disloyal would have to be willing to end it (of their own accord), be willing to verify to the LS that they are not in contact, and police themselves. 

So just to be clear, a Disloyal *can* take the affair "deeper undercover" and lie to you by sending a false letter or acting in front of you as if they are ending contact...by buying a Pay-as-you-go cellphone or something. It is conceivable and the truth is that sometimes they do that! This is very much like a drug addict remember, and a drug addict will not truly stop doing the drug until THEY want it--until it hurts more to continue the drug than it does to stop. 

Make sense? Obviously there are no "magic words" to make sure the Disloyal will end all contact--but when they want it and it's truly a willingness to end it, there are some things that should be included as part of the No Contact Letter to be extremely clear.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Oh I'll just add that there is a difference between the Disloyal who says: "It feels to me like I'm being watched or like my privacy is being invaded, but I'm willing to subject myself to that as a way of letting you know I'm being honest. I'll show you MYSELF that I really am not in contact" and the Disloyal who reluctantly agrees after pressure, doesn't really want to let you see anything, or just becomes more deceptive. 

Part of the weird issue here is that the Loyal spouse probably knows the Disloyal better than any other person in the world...and even THE LOYAL can't really tell if they're being honest!! So do your best to tell if it seems like a genuine change, let them verify to you, and try to keep an open mind that they may be trying to really change. I'll just say it again, that the Disloyal is responsible for policing themselves and verifying it to you--it's not your job to police their actions. 

BUT no contact means *NO CONTACT*! Not "gradually reducing the contact" or "closure." *NONE*--okay? Got it?


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Understood and agreed don't think she will agree
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> I don't want to thread jack further. However, I will say again that my whole POINT was that you can do all these things RIGHT and it doesn't work because the cheaters anticipate your wish to believe it is over and act to make the deception continue so the affair can.


I don't think this has become a hijack of the thread because of the importance of the no contact letter. 

I do admit that my words 'it is entirely dependent' were an unfortunate choice - I was trying to speak to Disbelief about the importance of the wording of the letter, and the choice of WHO proofreads it and WHO mails it. 

The exception I took to your post was instead based upon the argument you offer that since it did not work in your situation, it therefore does not work in others...



> It's been my experience that the no contact letter or phone calls saying such are just grandstanding for the betrayed spouse.
> 
> Hardly ever result in full-stop contact.


I wished to point out that while this did not work in your case, it does not of necessity follow that these things 'hardly ever' work. That was based upon my observation of myriad instances where they do work. 

And I pointed out, quite clearly (for the benefit of Disbelief) that the wording is important, which is why he would need to check it, and that it is also my experience (and many other people) that a cheating spouse will write a very good letter for their spouse to read, and then modify it quickly before they send it - hence the need for the LOYAL spouse to mail it.

Moreover, I make the 'caveat' that there are no guarantees, simply because you CAN do 'everything' right - or even 'a LOT' of it right - and yet the end result is still a loss. That, again, was to make sure that Disbelief goes into this with his eyes open.

This has nothing to do with your situation (which had other problems in action at the same time that you tried to ensure that your wife stop contact). This has ALL to do with giving Disbelief all of the necessary information and tools to do the best he can. Once we do that, the rest is not up to us.

In other words, my point was that you CAN do all of these things right and still not end up the way you want. And to do this, I gave indication of what things to do (the 'right' way) - so as to ensure the best possible outcome. Truly, I cannot help it if it strikes an emotional chord in you, and your input is greatly appreciated to demonstrate that this is a step in the right direction, and not a magic cure. But it does bother me that you are willing to argue general principles out of specific examples. 

Just because something didn't work one time doesn't mean it didn't work somewhere else. And if I've seen it work more often than fail - _if the proper steps are taken_. This in no way places blame on anyone (other than coincidentally) - the best possible course of action is dependent upon the participation by the Betrayed Spouse. It is only 'blame' if the Betrayed Spouse decides NOT to use the best possible means _after being fully informed of the best method_ - and instead allows their Disloyal Spouse to go about contacting the Other Person privately. In that case - hey, you should take a little blame!


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

I believe she is still emailing as well. i would not be able to prove this she does it all from her phone. And she does email for other stuff. I suppose if there was no issue she would give me passwords. A week or two ago she straight up said she did not want to have to tell me where she was all the time. 2 days later she is txting me here every move. That comes and goes. It's gone rt now. Will be rereading this thread while waiting in line later. Thanks all.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Tanelornpete said:


> I don't think this has become a hijack of the thread because of the importance of the no contact letter.
> 
> I do admit that my words 'it is entirely dependent' were an unfortunate choice - I was trying to speak to Disbelief about the importance of the wording of the letter, and the choice of WHO proofreads it and WHO mails it.
> 
> ...


I think you are far too concerned with argumentation and being right about your methods, IMHO.

I don't crow about how many people I know of personally I have encountered where what I have experienced have had happen to themselves. I suppose if I wanted to drag this out even longer i could find them.

I'll stick to my point, and assure you it is not just based on my personal experience, that despite the BEST efforts to get no further contact between their cheating spouse and their other person, a significant percentage of cheaters use those efforts for even deeper deception to continue their affair. So VERIFY instead of relying on the power of that no contact strategy.

And that is all I'll write on this thread.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Get a good stealth keyboard logger. You'll have the passwords in short order.

When I said back off I meant don't push the conversatioins, when she starts one, discuss it. When it starts to go south, quit. Put the cell phone on detailed listing of calls and data - you will see every text and call and then change the account password and security questions. DON'T reveal your sources or say thigns that show you know. She will shut off those channels.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

My feelings on medication - my wife definitely has either omnipolar or bipolar according her to MD. He is going to suggest she be evaluated by a psychiatrist. Without any type of antidepressant, she would be unbearable to live with. While I agree it is better to not medicate, that should be a decision for a psychiatrist not this forum. I also know you can't force treatment on someone who does not want it and bipolar people are notorious for stopping medication because they think they are cured after a short time on meds - a recipe for a serious relapse. In any case, a psychiatrist is qualified to make that decision. A therapist cannot prescribe medication for a reason.

In my case, if had not gone and seen my MD and told him about my problems - constant crying while driving an hour to work or whenever I was alone, severe anger outbursts, unable to sleep more than an hour or two, nightmares and severe quantities of flashbacks sleuthing to extreme and hypervigilance. I found out later these are all symptoms of post traumatic stress syndrome. If he had not precribed something for my anxiety and depression, I would have imploded. I had seriously considered suicide after taking the OM out. My wifes inability to show any remorse or help me left me no option. I'm now very glad I did. I can sleep, my anger is controlled, my depression significantly controlled, flashbacks have reduced. All of this permitted me to hold on and to not severely over react which would have driven my wife completely away. As soon as things settle down more, I will get off them.

Disbelief, her depression is a result of the A and her guilt, shame and denial in owning up to it. If SHE agrees to it, her MD or a psychiatrist can help her. I went through this when my wife had severe post partum which then turned into a deep long term depression. She refused to admit to herself. I made an appointment with her MD. He told me he couldn't talk to me about her because I wasn't his regular patient. I walked ut of his office, had my records transferred to him and made another appointment. When I walked in again, I said "now I'm your patient and I have a severe problem with my wife that s tearing me up. I need your help and I need your help with her." He listened and then sugested she be taken to a mental ward at the hospital which I vehemently opposed. He then contacted her to come in. He recommended to her a psychiatrist and therapist and immediately put on her an anti-depressant. It was start of her coming back to reality.


In your case, you may not be able to get the same relationship started with her doctor. All you may be able to do is suggest she seek help because you are very concerned for her.

Getting help is nothing to be ashamed of. Just don't consider it a cure for your marriage. You still need to work out those issues and take ownership for your actions that created fertile ground - not responsiblity for the affair. In my wifes case the first time, it took 2 years of her own therapy and 1 1/2 years of marriage counseling before she could admit it wasn't all me. In spite of that, those same issues popped back up after d day - the black brush that I was the problem and cause for the affair. She's off that now. But it took me taking responsibility for the mistakes I was making and working hard to correct them. She still can't get herself to tell me anything about the A. See my last post on my thread. We still have a LONG way to go and a lot of work to do.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Thanks 8 Yrs, I am definitely waiting on time now taking in everyones advice. Depression issue I will keep an eye on she denies being depressed rt now. But thats not how I see it. 
Good luck on your continued journey.
I cannot suggest treatment right now it would have the opposite effect her IC will need to pick up on it.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

For everyone posting here I am taking and hearing your advice! And without it I think I would be completly out of my mind.

For those who were on board yesterday W made call to OM it finally posted. About 20 min. Shortly after that she called me and was pleasant....huh...car question also.

My thoughts for the upcoming weeks....

1. Watch phone for frequency of calls before acting on this one.

2. Her behavior: has been erratic towards me so I was going to stay with Backed off through the holidays. The kids being the#1 priority here.


3. I am covering my bases, free legal consult. Do I keep it to myself or is that a Carrot and Stick sort of thing. Do I tell her to get her thinking she thinks all is going to be great in D world.

4. I would like to pressure a No Contact letter but right now I think if she even has a glimmer for this marriage that would shut it down,

5. The other night she said how she was beginning to feel unwelcome here, I said because she has not been home and that she is welcome. She believes the children will not miss her if she goes.

6. Yeah I need reminders, the 180 list in my pocket. She last week said she would sign the house to me do I make it happen? 

She see's her IC tues We see MC week after thats when she/we is suppossed to have seperation plan organized and full detailed budget.

I need a really pro marriage counsellor not a middle of the road one.

Thanks everyone.

Watched the movie The Secret last night ...interesting.

I am not feeling so resilient.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

My friend unless you get the OM out of the picture counseling is a waste of time. 

The only sure way of him not talking to her is to make his life very uncomfortable. If she is in contact with him at work , he is conducting the affair on company time. Use your imagination, share ideas with us but get him out of the picture, there is no need to discuss this with her. 

You are still far to scared to follow the tried and proven route to bust the affair and then focus on rebuilding your marriage. Tip toeing around a woman who no longer loves you and who is making plans with the OM is foolish to say the least. She will learn to love you again, at this stage the fog holds her and it will NOT clear unless you create a strong wind to shift it. Have you exposed her affair to everyone, friends, family co-workers etc.. Get Plan A running as clockwork, do the love busters and better yourself, assume she hates you, she will rant and blame you, it all par for the course. Prepare your Plan B. Breaking the affair and rebuilding the marriage will take time and hard work from you, if you are not prepared to fight for your marriage, I mean FIGHT, go to a lawyer and start divorce proceedings. 

Man up and fight, as it stands now you have no wife, she is gone and planning on leaving. 

If you are confused go to the Marriage Builders site and you will see that the advice from AC, Pete and others is rock solid. 

Btw.. talking to his spouse helps but in this case it appears the spouse is not able to stop the OM talking to your wife, do what you need to do and bypass the spouse eg. let his company, friends etc. know


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Thank you, I want to do all that I just wish it were May and not a month before christmass. Young ones 11 and under.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

1. Watch phone for frequency of calls before acting on this one.
If this is part of collecting evidence then OK

2. Her behavior: has been erratic towards me so I was going to stay with Backed off through the holidays. The kids being the#1 priority here.
This is a good time of year for the affair to break, if she can't see you, the children and family she only has herself to blame. You carry on Plan A'ing her... She must see that she is hurting all at a very key part of the year , if she has any conscious this will work in your faviour. Do not wait until next year. 

3. I am covering my bases, free legal consult. Do I keep it to myself or is that a Carrot and Stick sort of thing. Do I tell her to get her thinking she thinks all is going to be great in D world.
Don't mention the D word

4. I would like to pressure a No Contact letter but right now I think if she even has a glimmer for this marriage that would shut it down,
Only once she has committed to return to the marriage do you mention the NC letter, many WS have written NC letters and then gone deeper underground, a prime example is the OM , he is still in contact with your wife. My own advice is if and when she is willing to write a NC letter have her hand write it and post it recorded mail to OM and a copy to his wife. She can't then say to the OM you forced her.

5. The other night she said how she was beginning to feel unwelcome here, I said because she has not been home and that she is welcome. She believes the children will not miss her if she goes.
Consequences, carry on bettering yourself, she must see what she is missing 

6. Yeah I need reminders, the 180 list in my pocket. She last week said she would sign the house to me do I make it happen?
Tough one this, I say not as it tells her you are ready to stop the marriage. 

She see's her IC tues We see MC week after thats when she/we is suppossed to have seperation plan organized and full detailed budget.
MC is a waste unless she has NC with OM , if she separates you make sure she has no Financial call on you, if the children are with you she pays you, mortgage is 50/50 split. Separation is a trial divorce so make it so without saying the D word. She must see the love she is missing from you and her family.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

disbelief.. It is a bad time of year for this, apart from the work you have to do on yourself and support you must give to your children you must get that OM out of the way permanently.

I know you will say its the time of year for good will and cheer etc.. however I assure you the OM does not give a dam about you and your children, reciprocate this to him, it would be very a good present for him to be fired from his job and it will ensure he understands you are more than prepared to fight for your marriage. At the minimum if all his in laws, parents, siblings and friends know he is in an affair it does make life uncomfortable for him.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

I agree with exposing. This is not the average OM situation It is not an at work situation. Like I have said OM is not a stranger. I cannot prove emails. OM has directly communicated to me or lied that he is done. My W says he is done but she is not over it. ( and the way she said it she wasn't lying) do I still doubt .....Yes..... OM spouse says OM is behaving like he is done. Ramifications of full exposure without confirmation that things are still active arrrrrrgggghhhh. Way to complicated.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

In an affair your wife and the OM become proficient at lying. There are devices you can purchase , voice activated recorders, that you can hide in your wifes car or in areas you think she may be when these calls are made. Essentially you have to be more cunning than them.


By exposing and telling all they are in an affair is factual true, neither the OM, your wife or his can deny it. The exposure has to be massive not trickled out, its a once off blast to a lot of people. I have posted an exposure mail somewhere on this forum, if you require a copy let me know.

The second set of evidence is more for follow up and you may not require it, you know she is in an affair as does she. Rock the boat and make them wince.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

If you can send a copy that would be great. The only solid proof I could get would be with cell phone software and thats nearly impossible. She has all the"symptoms" of withdrawal. Since d day she rarely uses home computer or home phone she has mostly isolated herself.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Sample of exposure letter used elsewhere. It is a template used by a couple of BS before. I must add the exposure route needs to be far reaching, I have read cases where all the facebook friends and contacts on the WS mobile phone were sent this letter, either by mail or text. The reaction is the WS goes mad, not sure if yours will but hey she is still in the affair.. 


Dear ........., I would like to ask you to support......... and myself in restoring our marriage which currently is undergoing an extremely difficult time due to ........ and ........... being involved in an adulterous affair which is affecting our marriage and both of our physical and mental health. I know you care about .......... and want only the best for her which clearly being used in an adulterous affair is not. I would like to ask your help in recommending marital counselling to her to guide us through this difficult spot in our marriage.

Please do contact me if you have any questions or need more information.

Thank you


Play with the words if you want to but the message is the same..WS's often see the car as a secure place to talk hence the use of a VAR, voice activated recorder. There is nothing wrong in telling all his friends and family, I bet he has not been to vocal about it.




> . She has all the"symptoms" of withdrawal. Since d day she rarely uses home computer or home phone she has mostly isolated herself.


What you do not know is if she is trying to stop the affair, indications are not , her call is breaking NC that means the affair is still there and may be deeper underground. Until NC is effected in totality there is little or no chance of the marriage recovering. You may want to put this message across to the OM's wife, her marriage is at risk as well, do not tell her what you are doing.

Message to your wife, the OM and his wife:-- NO CONTACT MEANS NO CONTACT EVER


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Have you gone to the affaircare site

AffairCare Home

There is a lot of good reading material there and read the following:-

Coping with Infidelity: The End (Part 2)

Therein is a reason for the exposure you must do in the article under :Should an affair be revealed?


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

You can also get a gps tracking transmitter and stick it to her car. I've heard they are not always reliable though.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Eli,
OK I understand the exposure the no contact I get it I agree with it But here's my thinking.... Trust them no I don't But in the event the truth is being told which seems likely at this point. I hold my doubts If i expose before the holidays she will bolt she will not be open to any sort of recovery once family knows she will turn against me D wise she has said she would sign all over for sake of kids and all Family would be in emotional pain. So how is that one a win. I get your point I do but I don't have enough evidence........yet.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

Some questions:

What does this sentence mean?



> Trust them no I don't But in the event the truth is being told which seems likely at this point.


One thing that will help you - probably the MOST useful tool - is to think with extreme clarity. Helps make decisions, and in the end makes the difference between sounding reliable and honest and being wishy-washy, confused and useless. Making sure that your thoughts are very clearly expressed on this forum is a very good way to practice this clarity. Not trying to pick on you or anything - but it is very difficult to even know what the problem IS, let alone try to find solutions!

Again, what on earth does this sentence mean?



> I hold my doubts If i expose before the holidays she will bolt she will not be open to any sort of recovery once family knows she will turn against me D wise she has said she would sign all over for sake of kids and all Family would be in emotional pain.


Finally - why don't you have enough evidence? Are you still doubting that an affair is going on?


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Tanelornpete said:


> Some questions:
> 
> What does this sentence mean?
> 
> ...


No offense taken that was poorly expressed. What I meant was I do not want to push exposing the affair when what evidence I have of it ongoing is only a couple phone calls. My w if I push will bolt I believe with christmass a month away and 4 kids 11 and under. I do not want to make this traumatic time and W and OM are well known to me and whole family it would cause alot of emotional pain for alot of people.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

Thanks for clarifying that! Makes more sense now!

Still have to ask, though - are you saying that the ONLY reason you believe your wife is having an affair is because she made two phone calls?

Regarding the idea of keeping people from feeling uncomfortable by _allowing your wife to have an affair,_ may I point out that if your marriage falls apart because of her infidelity, you will not be able to protect people from bad feelings? 

Your marriage can survive people feeling uncomfortable. It cannot survive an ongoing affair. 

Last question/remark - _so what_ if your wife 'bolts' - where can she go to avoid the hurt she is causing people by cheating on her family? Will she not still be responsible for this - no matter where she goes? Do you really think you can 'make' the affair stop by manipulating situations in order to keep her home?

I can say this: the ONLY way an affair will end is if the cheating partners (one or both) decide to end it. It doesn't matter if she is home or gone, unless SHE comes to the realization that she wants her family, and not her lover - things will not change.

You cannot 'make' this go the way you want.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Tanelornpete said:


> Thanks for clarifying that! Makes more sense now!
> 
> Still have to ask, though - are you saying that the ONLY reason you believe your wife is having an affair is because she made two phone calls?
> 
> ...


I only do not have solid proof of an ongoing affair. When D Day hit about 8 weeks we were in an argument and I was pushing the what is wrong question and she just blurted it out. Now she wants to seperate they both say its over. As I have said I know the OM much better than I wish I did. And after D Day we even spoke he couldn't keep his mouth shut on more than one occaision and revealed things. My W still does not want to discuss the A I Know cheaters lie. But if it is really over if I can't prove it is still ongoing, if I do a no contact and it forces them to say buy prepaid cell phones there goes any monitoring I have. The bigger picture is I think she is done either way I still have a shimmer of hope. She was just pleasant to me on the phone but she gets off in a rush to ( made sure I did by first) I don't want to put my family through the pain especially the kids this close to christmass. My W is very withdrawn she said straight out to me she is not over it (the A). 

You are right she can not avoid the hurt. I am not manipulating situations. I have been trying to wade through this as best as possible and the advice here has helped I have faltered. She is growing more distant laying blame on years of our R. I know people will be hurt if our M falls apart but I am sure that if I push that reveal esposure to all button right now my kids will not have mom at home for Christmas.

I need to speak with OM spouse. She is believing him 100x's easier than my behavior. I am currently hypervigilant trusting next to no one. 

OM swears he ended it and it is over and he wants to save his M. But I can't prove if they are lying and meeting or not. I know they have had 3 phone calls he tells his W she tells me when we talk. My W wants privacy does not want to do transparency straightup said she can't do that right now. One of the many reasons I have very little hope left.

I am frustrated I do appreciate the input If I had not found this forum, I don't know how i would be handling this at all.



_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

I am in disbelief that you are not taking action, 

Your wife told you she is in an affair - fact

OM has admitted the affair , if not in so many words - fact

Its all your fault and you are the bad guy, she will tell her family so, you destroyed the marriage, - this is what she believes - fact and this is what will be believed by all - fact

Your wife has told you she is separating from you - fact. 

She is talking to the OM, BECAUSE THEY ARE STILL HAVING AN AFFAIR - fact - Do you get it.

They are planning the next steps --In January. Feb or soon thereafter Mrs. Disbelief will say she has a place to go to and OM will have a place to sleep, a bed to rest his weary body and your wife just happens to be in it. - Fact , this will happen whether you tell people the truth or not

If his wife believes he is having a platonic conversation she is a fool. - tell her so, suggest she joins another forum, say the one at marriage builders and asks for advice, this way you are on separate forums and I assure you she will be told very quickly what is happening and the steps to take.. the same as I am telling you. 

So

This is sincere advice. This is hard and fast from a professional who is very successfully in rebuilding marriages, for the record not I. 

While she is in contact with the OM the marriage will never recover

As of the moment the affair started you had no marriage, you have no marriage now, so do nothing and pray ,while it is good for the soul it is very ineffectual in real life or take action . 

Adapt the note stating that they have both acknowledged the affair , post it on the forum if you are not sure of the words and we will help you.

At a minimum you call her family and send the note to them. She does not want to tell them because it is a secret and wants to control the message when she leaves, by sending the note now and her leaving confirms to people she has gone because of the OM. Do the same to the OM's friends, if he did not want to talk to your wife he would ignore her calls, he is in this up to his neck so pull no punches and stop doubting yourself.

They both admitted the affair to you so take action.

At all times remember your wife and the OM are pathological liars, never believe what they say to be true and drum this into your head.

Give it one more shot as I do not think you have done this.
You speak to her *today,* face to face, tell her the affair stops now and that she ceases all contact the OM. Tell her she is destroying two families. YOU forgive her, you will fight for your marriage and will leave no stone unturned to repair the damage and return the love between you. Together you will go to counseling to build a better and more rewarding marriage. Warn your wife if OM goes near your children you will get a restraining order against him. Say no more, present no evidence, there is no debate, look her in the eye when you talk to her. 

Then 

tell the family and close friends via mail, text and conversation. Talk directly with your in laws, make sure they know she and OM both admitted the affair. Do so now, Thanksgiving and Christmas are good times for her to see what she is going to miss. You must make sure you all have a great family time, she can be present or not her choice. 

Carry on gathering evidence i.e. the VAR, you want to hear the innocent conversation, hide the device well. 

Plan A her- for about 6 weeks, this takes you to Jan about the time she will try to leave. If she is responding to the Plan A then it goes on for a lot longer. Do not trust her carry on gathering evidence and be diligent. Do not discuss divorce or separation, it is not on your agenda, if she brings it up state it is not an option, walkout of the room. 

Prepare for Plan B- if she has not divulged all and is not actively working on the marriage you start this in Jan/Feb, this occurs regardless if she leaves or not, this is when you and her tell your children mom has a boyfriend and is leaving home. She pays 50 /50 of all bills and assume her full share of the finances. Separation must be formal through the courts, call the OM as witness to the affair, see how he baulks at this. 

Key for you is to get through Plan A, if she comes back to the marriage great, if not do Plan B, the effort is enormousness on your side. You will be stressed, tired and hurt all the time. If she contacts the OM at any time you are back to square one, the timescales don't change and Plan B become a reality 

What ever happens you work on yourself, the children stay with you, you be firm, lead the family and show gumption, the OM is not your friend he is not better than you treat him such.

Get legal advice in readiness for a separation, follow the legal advice, she leaves she pays you to support the family, you are not having the affair she is.

The above will need some finessing but at a summary level this is what you should be working to


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Order yourself some reading material 

His need her needs
Surviving an affair


By Dr. Harley

PS: go for individual counseling for yourself, you need someone to dump on and talk to, it is for your own health and well being.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Xmas - don't worry about it. If she decides not be around your kids, she will do it anyway. Don't let that drive your decisions.
Counseling for seperation - go but firmly state you will not process toward toward D at all. This is not the time while both of in shock over the discovery and it's not what you want so you will not support it any way. Tell her you will wait a minimum of 6 months before discusssing - not agreeing to any such moves becasue it's not what you want and while the two of you are not thinking straight it's not the time.

Moving out - you don't agree becuase the odds are worse that you will work through it. If she does it, it is completely on her own. If she decides to do that you will seperate bank accounts and finances and she will continue to pay 50% of all of the home expenses and pay50% of all utilities and groceries etc. It was a lifetime commitment. Transfer the house - no -relieves her of the payments.

STOP - do not let it progress. ANd if this counselor says otherwise - stop going.

Stopping contact - she has to do it and you can't force it. Quit chewing on it and just watch.

Time is the answer if it's possible, drag your feet in every way you can. DOn't confront. Work on yur issues and wait.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Sunday morning coffee and information overload. I feel like my heads gonna pop between reading the forum yesterday and DB book. 
I will plan for all of the above, this weeks assignment, is all of the above and Turkey Day. VAR, like it.
She is returning today if I were to jump rt on any of this it would push her away even more. So observe and report making a list. Watch her actions. At the same time it would probably help if OM spouse was doing the same. She is just believing him. If the fog theory is true then my W probably believes I stopped checking the phone record.
I have made appoinments for consults. If she in this fog decides to sign over the house, I will do that to secure it for my children. I will refinance I can do it on my income if I must. She will not let her kids starve hopefully they cleared her fog a little this weekend. She was pleasant but short on the phone with me last night. I will take that with 1/2 a grain of salt. I feel I am Caring less I must be detatching a couple days alone has helped, allowed time for emotional release.
Just so everyone knows your input and advice is not falling on deaf ears. There has been so much in the past few days. Thank You


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Whatever you do do not smother her or follow her around like a lost puppy, she must see and believe you are more than capable of looking after yourself and the children.

Do a lot for your children start doing the things she used to do, the message is you do not need her in your life, you may want her but you you do not need her, she will feel exposed to see you doing so well..

This is going to hurt you a lot so be brave, show with your actions and words you are confident and are prepared to move forward. This will scare her.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

That is part of her resentment due to employment situations, one of her complaints was that I am too involved in the kids she never has her time she already knows I can do it without her she thinks kids wont miss her if she goes. 
Stopped the lost puppy weeks ago. Ramped up where i was lacking trying to keep it up. 
Kids are my priority. 
I have done a few out of the norm things for me and have seen the surprise on her face.

Thanks


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Ok I read some of the exposing info. 
Now because of the close knit group this would effect and the fact that the two couples involved said they were not going to reveal the A. My WW and OM both revealed out of guilt they were not caught. Not excusing their decision. 
But if we, myself and OM spouse, decide to go through with full tsunami of exposure..... Should anytime along the way, if evidence is growing, should we drop the hint to the effect : You know if you do not stop contacting OM/OW I/we are going to get to the point where all family members are going to have to know what is really going on?

If OM/OW is willing to give his/her spouse full transparency to email access, phone access, report phone calls. Instead of LS discovering does this mean anything? 

I am not debating previous info, I just needed to ask this point of view. My W's sibling knows, OM's sibling knows. I don't think they know who the name of the A partner is. 

Thanks again everyone


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

So a long while ago kids knocked down the wedding picture i'm cleaning do I put it back up?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

You *must must must* tell all, no hints, plain hard they are committing adultery type words. Gathering of evidence continues along the way and will do for some time. They have admitted the affair, your note must say so . having siblings in the know is good. The broader the exposure the more effective it is to kill the affair and force NC.

If you and the OM's wife can agree a dual exposure it takes away any doubt of the lie, if she does not support you go ahead with out her. A word of caution, if the OM's wife leaks this to the OM then he will cover his tracks and start gaslighting you and will tell your wife.



> If OM/OW is willing to give his/her spouse full transparency to email access, phone access, report phone calls. Instead of LS discovering does this mean anything?


No, often this goes deeper and the truth will come out, you do not want them playing hooky sometime in the future, your task is to kill this permanently

Be clear on your plan, trust no one *especially the OM *

It does a couple of things, it keeps them honest should they recommit to the marriage as the OM claims he has, which is doubtful if he is talking to your wife. It allows a lot of people to monitor them and ask questions if they are seen in places they should not be. 

The evidence is to tell all that they are continuing the affair, you do not at this stage tell anyone of the new evidence. The letter simply says they are having an affair, this is by their own admission and you are asking for support to rebuild your marriage and the OM's wife her marriage. .


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Extract from one of Harley's books



> Most unfaithful spouses know that their affair is one of the most heartless acts they could ever inflict on their spouse. So one of their reasons to be dishonest is to protect their spouse from emotional pain. "Why add insult to injury," they reason. "What I did was wrong, but why put my spouse through needless pain by revealing this thoughtless act?" As is the case with bank robbers and murderers, unfaithful spouses don't think they will ever be discovered, and so they don't expect their unfaithfulness to hurt their spouse.





> It isn't honesty that causes the pain, it's the affair. Honesty is simply revealing truth to the victim. Those who advocate dishonesty regarding infidelity assume that the truth will cause such irreparable harm, that it's in the best interest of a victimized spouse to go through life with the illusion of fidelity.


Take the steps methodically and purposefully, expect a back lash from them as well as from some family members, par for the course.

As for the rest of the family and friends, send them a mail you may find out that the OM is having an affair or has had one with other women in this group, this has happened before.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Sorry disbelief this is over three posts..

The reason they do not want to reveal it is it makes them out to be the bad guys and over time they WILL turn this against you. Imagine you going to functions that they attend, how are you going to deal with it, your wife should she reconnect to your marriage will be tempted again and again. 

NC is NC is NC for ever.

The revelation of the affair is you telling the truth, it will be uncomfortable for all, especially if you are in the same circle of friends, they both knew this when they started the affair. 

You have to be selfish as does the OM's wife , I am assuming from your posts you are talking to each other, neither OM or your wife have proved beyond a shadow of the doubt that this is over. Your wife is talking about separation.

The telling of the truth to all is the single most effective way for you to recover your marriage, today what you know is your wife is leaving you. OM is with his wife, you think? or is he planning an exit as well?

Assume the worst, be joyful for the best and always keep a clear head and take decisive action. It is this that will show your wife you intend to fight for her love and your marriage.

She is in the fog and will remain so until the affair is over and NC has been effected over many many weeks.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Just remember, even if she signs over the house, 1/2 of the mortgage, utilities and all expenses are still hers as part of the child support she would be ordered to pay if you D. Nothing changes now. Wait till after she signs if you want to. Just make it as financially painful as it would be if you were divorced. Otherwise she will spend it chasing OM or others and leave you holding the bag until the D. Include daycare, babysitting or any other expense you would incur to make a life for yourself as a single parent. She wants out, she needs to see what it will really be like.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

I would like to say I could predict a Happy ending but there is already a slight increase in texting no phone calls I will grit my teeth gather my evidence and prepare my course of action. She's not over the A. I don't think she's going to be. I want to go stuff it in her face rt now but I won't.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

F-102 said:


> She wants to "set you off" so that you will do something that you will regret later, and she can use that against you in court to get a better settlement. I've heard of D lawyers telling the wife to get in her STBX's face and provoke him into pushing her, then she could the cops and have him hauled out for abuse, just the thing to have the judge see! Look up dirty divorce tricks online, one of them is a "trial seperation", not a legal one with paperwork, and then the judge took that as "willfull abandonment", and punished the H accordingly.
> 
> It is my opinion that she knows that she is in the wrong, and she's desperately trying to make you look like the bad guy.
> 
> Incidentally, if my wife started acting the way you described, I'd let her go.



It is getting easier to perceive the letting go. Not for my kids though.

The DB method of not exposing for recovery or the Hartley method of full exposure for possibly saving marriage. If she only had a Facebook it would be so easy. I am rereading the thread to keep myself in check. Will be checking in with OM spouse and pointing some of the things from this thread out to her.

So is this how a spoiled teenage girl behaves?


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Ok so to keep all of you with more experience in the loop. The OM had the odacity to contact me via txt today, I remained polite it was for a practical issue involving older children (close group). I told him to please speak to so and so.. This went on for a few txt, he txt'd he would contact my W then, At which point I sent the final txt telling him who to contact instead of me or her and politely stated it would also be nice if he stopped contacting my wife so that I have a chance to save my family.
I directly asked W if they talked and she admited yes, not about the subject he contacted me on. She very plainly stated they just talk. I was about to walk away when I very calmly soft toned stated i don't know what if anything is going to become of us but if you keep talking to OM nothing will or maybe I said can. Her response ...sigh.. and look away.
I still plan to gather evidence, speak to OM spouse. And plan this possible exposure.
I hate this, hate what a D will do to my kids I want to confront her now I think a ride instead.
Thank you all for your support, as you can see I need it.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

don't wait too long to contact the OM wife. By the time I contacted the OW H in my case she had already filed for divorced and managed to coach my now ex H to do the same. I later found out that the OW had very serious issues in her marriage and when I called her now ex H he was already resigned and done with the marriage.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Disbelief:

Be strong, don’t let her bait you; never ever lose your cool. 

For the texting in the house, ignore her if you have spare cash get a device that jams the mobile signal.

As for what process to follow Harley or DB, decide on one and stick to it, I am a Harley’s proponent.

In many affairs if a wife asks for a separation that means she has an OM ready and waiting in the wings. She walked out last week, I guess she thought the OM would do the same, they had a call and changed the plan, he may (very likely) leave his wife  in the near future. They are likely waiting for Christmas to pass and to pretend all is well.

I would *not wait past the next few days to expose their affair,* every delay plays into their hands. She has admitted to you she is in an affair and is in love with the OM, so

adapt the note slightly:

Opening line.. 

As you may be aware ___and ___ are in an affair with each other. (your wife’s) name has confirmed the affair to myself. (continue with the rest of the mail).

If the OM’s wife can send out a similar message and text then there will be few if any challenges from friends and family.

You must be strong, assume the worse, they will gaslight you, they will show people some of the text messages and say they are just friends talking, it is all blah blah.

Be prepared to lose your marriage, this is how serious this is, you may have lost your wife already but if you do not fight for her love you will never know. 

Don’t debate with family and friends, this is your marriage you are fighting for.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

I would *not wait past the next few days to expose their affair,* every delay plays into their hands. She has admitted to you she is in an affair and is in love with the OM, so

adapt the note slightly:

Opening line.. 

As you may be aware ___and ___ are in an affair with each other. (your wife’s) name has confirmed the affair to myself. (continue with the rest of the mail).

If the OM’s wife can send out a similar message and text then there will be few if any challenges from friends and family.

You must be strong, assume the worse, they will gaslight you, they will show people some of the text messages and say they are just friends talking, it is all blah blah.

Be prepared to lose your marriage, this is how serious this is, you may have lost your wife already but if you do not fight for her love you will never know. 

Don’t debate with family and friends, this is your marriage you are fighting for.[/QUOTE]

I was reading Dr Hartleys plans last night. Does plan A ever work? Is it worth the attempt while continuing to monitor the sitch and educate OM Spouse this week. 

When W went away that week OM was working confirmed also. However since the"closure" phone call the frequency of contact has increased. Speak with OM spouse very soon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

> I was reading Dr Hartleys plans last night. Does plan A ever work? Is it worth the attempt while continuing to monitor the sitch and educate OM Spouse this week.


Plan A for you to improve your self, it is not designed on its own to bring your wife back, Its about your behaviours and bettering yourself in the face of the challenge, she must see you as the man who is better than the OM, she may not respond as she is still in the affair she will however notice the changes in you. 

Keep to the process, it is tried and proven, what no can say is if it will be successful for you, it is very dependant on your wife’s response over time, hence the overwhelming exposure technique to cause her and the OM instability and isolation from friends and family. All these add to the pressure..

Make sure the exposure is total, friends, family , hers, his, all contacts on the phones if you can get access to these. Etc.. it must be a single once off massive push. Whoever the meet and wherever they go your wife and OM must feel uncomfortable and isolated. 






> When W went away that week OM was working confirmed also. However since the"closure" phone call the frequency of contact has increased. Speak with OM spouse very soon.


My take on this is when you confronted your wife she stepped out prematurely and did think through this, she had calls with the OM and now they are making plans either to deny and gaslight you or leave together. Non of this stops you from bringing this to a head and brining their fantasy to the table. 

The frequency of the calls tells you you have to act soon they are most certainly up to something.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

You include her work when you do this I don't have those contacts. So the real goal is for the discomfort? Hoping it will end the A? Because I feel like this M is already done. Like she is just waiting to find a place to ask for a D. But she's not taken aggressive action there, is that fear? Is exposing better than the div busters method of not and backing off. Ugh. So in my case if I expose she will not come back to this M. If I don't expose she will prob div anyway but I still have 13 years of parenting and then the rest of life. This is lousy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

As for the work: I was not going to include this yet, if there is a separation, you want her to pay you child support and 50% of all the bills. If the OM works at the same place tell us.

Your exposure does not change what is going to happen, it is to protect you and your children, it is about you being honest with every one, no lies no deceit.

I would stop second guessing her next move and take your steps, she may well leave and use this as an excuse but hey imagine her looking into her parents eyes after the exposure, not pleasant she will be lying for the rest of her life that is permanent pressure on her. Everyone will know she is a cheat who will trust their husbands around her. 

Whatever her next steps they will be difficult for her, do not make it easy. You have two persons to deal with the OM and your wife. When one cracks the other will shake, patience and truth are on your side.

You have a plan follow it, keep a watchful brief on her and do what you must do.

Your children and you will get through this, have faith, no matter what the outcome you will come out the better person, your children will love you and everyone that has the slightest common sense will support you. There will be dissenters, note their names for future avoidance.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Well what to say what to do? At this point I don't know If any action matters. We just talked a little after she said she was going out to look at places. I acted nice. I said nicely, paraphrasing: so essentially you are done with me, nothing I can say will change anything you do and you are going to move out. Her response: I guess so. (seperation and the D word not mentioned)
I kindly thanked her for a good 15 years that I thought were good, as she left and hugged her. Maybe this was not the best Divorce busting move. 
She has kept this line of statements coming since D-Day. She says all this began long before the affair. So does anything I do matter? A Plan, B Plan, Div Busting, 7 Step. I mean I will keep doing the 180's because it is bettering me which makes my home better for the Kids. But the W. Is there any point. What a shame. If she had only directly stated her issues over the years instead of hinting. I feel as though I just need to move on. 
Next couples counselor appointment in 9 days. Is it even worth exposing the affair? She says also wether or not she talks to OM this is her path so it doesn't matter. I directly asked if the plan was for OM to move in she claims to be doing this for herself with no clue what OM is doing?

Thanks again everyone

I hope Tomorrow is better than today.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

You send out the exposure now.

Do not kid yourself that the OM is not in on this plan.

As for the problems in your marriage they can and will be resolved. 

Don't lose heart, expose now and then get a legal separation. 

Do listen to me, your wife and the OM are one step ahead of you. Make the move fast, she and the OM will not expect you to do the massive exposure, so do it now. 

They ARE going to gaslight you her words are the start so listen and act fast




> She says also wether or not she talks to OM this is her path so it doesn't matter. I directly asked if the plan was for OM to move in she claims to be doing this for herself with no clue what OM is doing?


So all they had were platonic conversations and she is love with him so he had nothing to do with this.

Move fast every delay plays into their hands. They will have you over a barrel as the bad husband who did not care for his wife.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Furthermore when you have completed the exposure warn the OM's wife she faces a real threat OM will be leaving soon or will have more ready access to your wife. 

It looks bleak now, this is part of what many go though and a large number of these marriages recover. 

She has played her card to leave you must take your next step, I must caution you if you delay you will reduce the odds on recovery. The proposed steps are there to be taken at the right time, you have the information, she is admitting the affair so now fight for your marriage. She is deep in the fog so what ever you do smile and ignore her comments, she thinks she is on her way to paradise. Start popping that bubble

*There is nothing wrong with exposure, there is something wrong with adultery*


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## babygurl71 (Nov 22, 2010)

I am so glad to know i'm not the only one having problems..i am so hurt and confused i dont know what to do...My husband of over 20 yrs started acting different the last week in September 2010 and i started asking him what was going on...i finally find out that he was having an affair...he would leave and sometimes stay gone all day and night and then reappear...it supposedly ended last week but yesterday he left to go to work and told me he would be back early.....i finally talked to him he told me he would be home in 20 minutes he never came home til this morning before work...i asked him what was going on and he said he was confused!! But he says he dont want a divorce or sepereration...i am going to pieces seems like someone plz help, I'm trying to stay strong and I know my kids need me but i have no one to talk to!!


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

babygurl71 I have copied your post to its own thread, I own the thread If you go there and post some more background information you will get more responses..

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...babygurl71-husband-may-affair.html#post211507


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Well I am going to be watching for things that don't seem right and figuring this out. i have taken into full consideration all the posts. My question at this moment is why there are the two extreme strategies of reveal and expose the A vs Div Bust. Last Resort Technique where you don't expose. 
My goal is the best interst of my children which would have been for my W not to have done this!! Since I cannot Change that next would be preserving the marriage. I have more info that says OM is done done with the A and her I do not want to post details. 
In my case with W's personality If I expose and it is over then this M will never have a chance. Us co parenting even divorced would have a slim chance. She will never get past that. Should her discomfort matter, no, but the one persons opinion she values most already knows. 
I am info gathering, trying to detatch as best I can, taking care of myself and my kids. If things really look like they are heating up with OM. Then I suppose it's expose or legal action. 

How is it after all this emotional pain I can look at her across the room from me and still feel the deepest love like it did not happen. Of course as soon as I catch that feeling creeping up now it I distract myself to prevent it from setting in.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Your Marriage is over unless you stand up and fight for it, the OM's marriage is over as well. To assume otherwise is accepting that your wife and the OM dictate the terms and they are dictating the journey. Your inactivity is the greatest support they could ever have asked for.

As for getting past exposure why would she be unhappy, she is proud to have the affair so stop making excuses on her behalf.

For now you have one task, save your marriage, the process is simple - expose them to all, then we will work with you. If you intend to do nothing, why bother talking about being married, write a note to the OM's wife and let her know her marriage is on the way out as well. 

These are harsh words you are not the first to go on this journey learn from others, those who delayed and procrastinated took a lot of pain and have been gaslighted to all by there WS. Do not be in the same position. Man up and do what needs to be done now. 

You need the support of your family and those friends that believe in marriage, the only way they can support you is if you tell them.

If your new information came from the OM's wife, since when do you start believing what the OM says, he is texting your wife , has he stopped. Don't be fooled and as for his wife, tell her to buck up and stop being so gullible. They are professional liars and until they agree a full no contact and the subsequent steps they are still in the affair. This is par for the course , don't be fooled.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

Fight for your marriage, and let the OM be the jackass that loses it all. By all means, start sqeualing like a pig. Expose her on Thanksgiving in front of the whole family: raise your glass, say you are thankful for the happy years you're wife gave you, but, it may soon be all over because...


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

I can see no phone contact since he was drunk sunday I guess her Sister confronted him at a bar. Thanksgiving would end up revealing to my kids and my parent she is working her family is spread out on t day.
her story has not changed she brought up moving out again this am. I spoke with om spouse last night he is presenting as committed he supposedly told off my w sunday she is acting like it just ended again. OM spouse is supposed to post on MB Forum she was going to address no contact letters. I am still observing. Can't see emails though. She does all that on her phone and like everybody else it's attatched to her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

A warning that you must heed.. you are not the first to go down the route you are following, you will be the first to fail.

The exposure route is a tried and proven method and swings the balance back to the marriage. Both you and the OM's wife are not secure in your marriages, the OM is a liar do not forget this, your wife's very behaviour should tell you she is still in contact with him , they have chosen another route ..the affair is still ongoing. untill both parties are exposed and follow due process. 


There are no secrets, honesty and truth are your only weapons, silence is not , she is going to gaslight you.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

I get it but what good does that do when my W has next to no contact with the people I would expose it to?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

So who does she have contact with? Co-Workers? Who or what does she care for enough that exposure will rock her little world. ?


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

The only thing with which I am concerned is the fact that there is no reason to use the Exposure step _if the affair is over_. Even if your wife is planning on leaving. Leaving the home and having an affair are two distinct things, and have to be dealt with in different ways. 

Absolutely, exposure is a necessary and very effective step to use if the affair is ongoing. If it has gone farther undercover; if it has been put on hold, etc., then exposure is used to make sure the illicit relationship becomes publicly known. But if it ended, then exposure simply becomes a means of revenge and punishment; neither of which are in any way positive, nor acceptable steps toward recovery. Using exposure for revenge is just as immoral as the affair.

The reason I bring this up is the fact that the OM's wife seems to be working on a No Contact letter with her husband. If this is true; if this letter is delivered (and it is written in such a way as to clearly demonstrate intent) - then the Other Man is no longer in the affair, and any hope of maintaining it is simply in your wife's mind, and that will fade over time, as she goes through the 'withdrawal' phase.

My advice: make sure that the Other Man's wife and he are definitely working on the No Contact letter to your wife, and he is not simply playing his wife. That's simple enough - it only takes a day or so to write, proof and mail the thing. If there is hesitation, then act on the assumption that the affair is still alive.

To address a couple of other questions:



> My question at this moment is why there are the two extreme strategies of reveal and expose the A vs Div Bust. Last Resort Technique where you don't expose.


Actually, there is very little difference at all: the Last Resort Technique is equivalent to a Plan A (or our Carrot & Stick phase) - which comes as step 5 in the seven step 'program' on Affaircare. Where you see a disconnect is in trying to jump ahead a step - if you take a good look at the Carrot & Stick phase - or a Plan A, you will NEVER see any advice to expose. By the time you get to that phase, you have already exposed, and moved past that step.



> In my case with W's personality If I expose and it is over then this M will never have a chance. Us co parenting even divorced would have a slim chance. She will never get past that. Should her discomfort matter, no, but the one persons opinion she values most already knows.


These are extremely confusing sentences (the syntax is, well, almost missing...) - so I'll try to answer what I _think_ you are asking. Note: remember how I emphasize the need to begin thinking clearly if you wish to save your marriage? A good way to practice and develop that habit is to make sure what you write here actually says what you mean! 

So, for the first sentence: "...In my case with W's personality If I expose and it is over then this M will never have a chance..."

A lot inferred here. First, the 'it' which is 'over' - is this the affair or what happens after exposure? I am assuming that what you meant to ask was:

"...If the affair is already over and I expose it anyway, my marriage is over..."

This seems to be predicated on your knowledge of your wife's personality, which may well be true, although from past experience with your thought processes throughout this thread, this also could be attributed to your imagination creating all kinds of doomsday scenarios, to which you respond with hysteria and inaction.

It may well be that if you use exposure in order to harm her, that she might leave. This is NO guarantee that the marriage is over, however. As the dizziness from the affair fades, and she begins to look at life more realistically, her anger over this might well fade too. Especially if this is the ONLY thing that you have done wrong. As she begins to sober up, she may well see that there is more good in the marriage than this one mistake. 

However, you assume that if she leaves the house, that automatically means the marriage is OVER, the world as we know it will end, cats and dogs will live together, and down will become up. She may well leave the home. She may well begin divorce proceedings. All of that may well be true. But the marriage is not over till the divorce is finalized. Got it? _Finalized_. Until then, you have every opportunity to work on the marriage. 

So suppose you do expose the affair, and then it turns out that it's already over, and your wife becomes all indignant that you would have the gall to not believe her after all the lies she's told you. In anger, she storms out of the house, declaring "...that's IT, we are THROUGH..." etc., etc., etc., yadda yadda yadda. 

In what way does that infer that the divorce is therefore finalized? Have papers already been filed? Have you responded? If not, then there is a good deal of time ahead of you. 

Stop imagining the future, and live right now, work right now, and let the past take care of itself, and the future unravel as it will. 

"...Us co parenting even divorced would have a slim chance. She will never get past that...."

Here you let your imagination, and the corresponding emotions throw logic and reality out the window. 

It is possible that she may never get past being angry at you for making a mistake (exposing the affair after it is over). Her personality may be one that NEVER EVER forgives a mistake someone makes. (Question here: why would you want to be married to someone who NEVER EVER forgives?) However, even given that rather _completely_ unbelievable premise, how in ANY stretch does the fact that she will not forgive you for making this mistake in ANY WAY infer that this will somehow cause the court system to reject a co-parenting plan? 

That makes absolutely no sense, is completely contrary to reality, and is therefore only in your really messed up imagination. My advice is to start pro-actively thinking rather than reacting to every situation. I keep saying that - not to be mean - but because that is the KEY to you improving your situation. I repeat, _it is the key_!

When a divorce is filed, part of the divorce decree is a parenting plan. Your wife does not determine parenting. The court does, and it bases it upon how capable you are of parenting, and of whether you pass it's criteria for a fit parent: do you abuse the children? Do you neglect them? Do you do drugs around them? Are you a current popular political enemy of the state? If not, then the court will set up a co-parenting plan.

Your wife is free to object, etc. - in which case the divorce will be a contested one (which works in your favor, since it means dragging the process out over an indefinite amount of time while the conditions of the divorce are settled (more time = more chance your wife will begin to change her mind).

But your wife's opinion in NO WAY can decree a custody plan. SO why even bother to use that as some sort of excuse not to do things that can save your marriage?



> Should her discomfort matter, no, but the one persons opinion she values most already knows.


In reality, this is not exposure, at least not as we use it at Affaircare. This is DISCLOSURE (step 3). This step _precedes_ exposure by giving your cheating spouse the chance to listen to reason from a trusted source. If they respond to this, there is no need to go farther. All this means is that you've moved beyond step 3 and are at step 4. 

And that step hinges on if the affair is still ongoing. See the first part of my post!

Affaircare's Seven Steps to Ending An Affair.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

These are extremely confusing sentences (the syntax is, well, almost missing...) - so I'll try to answer what I think you are asking. Note: remember how I emphasize the need to begin thinking clearly if you wish to save your marriage? A good way to practice and develop that habit is to make sure what you write here actually says what you mean! 

I used to write much better. To much texting nowadays. I guess I keep focusing on her not being able to get over anyone finding out because when D Day came she was a emotional mess. Well so was I. In those conversations she was very to the point that if family ever found out she would not be able to face them again. Her mom left her dad for an A partner he still resents 30 years later. I think he would have a very bad reaction to her. Her sis knows and that's her most valued relation.
I am watching phone calls her behavior is as if the A is over. The OM spouse began talking no contact letter with him. I encouraged her to sign up on marriage builders.
When I back off everything is more productive and she has less talk of moving out. The kids have been needing her more when she is home to. Even with that she dropped the comment that they will be fine they won't notice I'm gone. She is talking that she has found a furnished temporary place she could rent. She still has not stated I want a D.

Thanks Again all.
Not enjoying this.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

This past weekend she was talking and texting him, is she still doing that..


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Eli-Zor said:


> This past weekend she was talking and texting him, is she still doing that..


I have seen none since sunday night when he was drunk at a bar. Reportedly my W's Sis confronted him and om spouse says when om was still drunk om told om spouse he told my w it was done never to call again and so on. Truth serum???? Phone record shows w's sis calling same time frame as om. Nothing between om and w since then.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

You have to see the NC letter from OM to her first, Ask the OM's wife to keep you in the loop and copy you in on any communication , she can tell the OM you two are talking but not divulge the content.


There are sample letters on the affaircare site, they must not water this down. As for NC he can never ever see her again. no matter how close a family friend he may be.

http://www.affaircare.com/Articles/SampleNoContact.htm


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

I feel you've done everything you could and more to defuse this, and she still won't play ball. I'm relieved to see you contacted the OMs wife and exposed her and him.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Thanks F 102 It is still frustrating. I wish my W would clearly express herself and i wonder if it is guilt or or is it lies. She came clean out of guilt. I don't know. OM supposedly shut her down again sunday, and her behavior has been very negative since then so i wonder If we are in a restart of a "fog" and I wonder what I can tolerate. I know where my heart is. I just don't know how long it will stay there. If I discover they continue contact I think that will really shut me down. They say time heals all. I don't know about that. I still remember a heartbreak from 20 years ago so how can she get over this and come back to the marriage. 
I really don't want my kids to feel the heartache but I think she is ready to move out. I suppose actions will speak louder than words.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

I understand my wife must look within in order to solve her issues.
There is NOTHING I can control to make this happen.
It is her journey, and I am on my own journey.
I am beginning to accept more that she has to figure this out for herself. i just wish she would allow some outside influene like these forums she will not read or listen to anything along these lines. She is finally talking to some of her family. I am not sure if that is helpful or hurtful.
I am working to detatch it is so hard I am going to ask my IC for help. Does the DB LRT work if she is in the house? As mentioned Supposedly the A is over, I am still observing. She still feels the need to seperate. Instead of arguing when she last brought it up my final statement was You need to do what you need to do I cannot change how you feel, but you know how I feel.
Yesterday went well no arguing she did get defensive over the kids going someplae without her next weekend. I still believe she is waiting for me to do something very mean.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

Just be careful about the A being over. Sometimes they can keep a very low profile to give that impression. My ex did that all summer.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

I am being very cautious. And warning OM spouse as well she just wants to believe every word he says. She has yet to goto MB forum. I told her not to push no contact letter. Because he should be willingly on board and mentioned them possibly hiding the A deeper if it was not truly over. I remain in a hypervigilant state and trying to detatch. I still feel actions speak louder than words. I have seen no phone contact since sunday does i mean anything??if her Arrival and departure times get really off then I will not think so little of it this time as well as any and all other strange and changing behaviors. The only thing I cannot watch is email she does it from her phone. (I could contact her sibling she has been speaking with but i said I would leave that trust alone. The only one she talks with. Everybody needs someone.)
OM spouse says he agrees to what she has written for NC letter so far but disagrees on signing it. He feels he needs no advice and does not believe signing a letter is needed because he has told my W more than once it is done. That make me suspicious. 
The onset of the holidays and the kids may be begining to effect her we'll see.

Doing the best I can for my kids right now, that helps me.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

My two cents worth.

It is very rare that the affair closes down so quickly. my guess is they are in a limited contact period and will pick up again. 

You must have another chat to the OM's wife, she will lose her husband and she must stop being foolish and to proud to ask for help. No one is going to chastise her, everyone will do what they can to help her. 

If her husband does not want to sign the NC this is a huge red flag for her, he is not committing to save the marriage. She can read the stories on the MB site and see for herself.

For your own marriage it will help immensely if she does go onto the other site and follows the processes, both marriages then stand a chance to survive. 

I do caution you, your approach is not founded, you may think you are unique and you are on the right path, do not be surprised if this goes her way. 

I hope this works out for you. Please do be careful. The exposure/disclosure route even of it is to your family and hers is a proven method. 

Best wishes.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Eli-Zor said:


> My two cents worth.
> 
> I do caution you, your approach is not founded, you may think you are unique and you are on the right path, do not be surprised if this goes her way.
> 
> Best wishes.


I am trying to get her onto that site. I am trying to make her realize the things that are said here. I have told her that him not wanting to sign is not a good thing. I will encourage again. If my W were to receive this letter I think it would have a powerful effect.

As far as the above do you mean I should not be surprised if it goes my W's way? 

It is confusing to me also of this method vs LRT on DB and not exposing.

My goal at this moment is to watch for more contact and get OM spouse to get on board with MB and NC letter. OM is being alot more transparent with his spouse right now than my W. This may all be a show. That is why I remain suspicious. A month until Christmas I will scrutinize for that time frame. I will have a D Day of my own to friends and family If I must after that. Her sibling may know the real truth I would address her first. My W gets mad at answering the repetetive question of is it over which is a red flag to me. She may have newly developed acting skills but in the past she did not put on a good show. The last conversation about the A was pretty convincing it was over. I am on guard. Right now I don't have solid proof that it is ongoing. 

Thanks


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

You are right in the middle of a Man’s Business buddy and you are doing very well. You are going with your gut instincts. Don’t get much better than that.

Bob


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

AFEH said:


> You are right in the middle of a Man’s Business buddy and you are doing very well. You are going with your gut instincts. Don’t get much better than that.
> 
> Bob


Thanks for the encouragement, I have been at wits end. And I had a thought as painful as this is if do u allow this terrible time frame define the whole history of the relationship. I think that would be as foolish as believing every word the disloyal says.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

I guess she's beyond talk she is going to look at places sunday still wants to buy but has considered temporary move in type also. So now do I change anything I am doing?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> It is confusing to me also of this method vs LRT on DB and not exposing.


It's because the LRT step on DB is equivalent to Plan A on MB and Affaircare. Exposure is finished before LRT or Plan A even starts...


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Tan...thank you. 
I spoke with om spouse today. My w tried calling OM today he did not answe by choice he told his w of the call he is being transparent I suggested they include emails also. I tried to express how a NC letter may help on my end also. I am begining to believe my W thinks there maybe a chance for the A. I believe my w has more hope for the A than our M. Subtle hints say my real W is still in there and not the affair alien but I have low hopes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Let me see if I can help clear up how the Last Resort Technique (LST) of DB and our seven steps "work together. "

One thing I think that's confusing you is that the word "exposure" used in both places does not mean the same thing. In our seven steps, that term is a way of identifying the step wherein you have already spoken to your spouse directly (giving them the option to stop on their own, discretely, without anyone ever knowing) and they've refused; then you've spoken to maybe one respected person to gather support, encouragement and some help talking to your spouse (again giving them the option to do the right thing and end the affair quietly). Once you've done both of those things, and the Disloyal Spouse has twice hardened their heart--to their own spouse and to someone they respect--then we recommend the step we identify as "exposure" and we gave it that name because in this step the loyal spouse no longer keeps the affair "a secret" or stops cooperating with making the affair easy. In this step, in our method, the affair is exposed in a very controlled, limited way--and only to those whose lives are going to be impacted if the spouse continues to harden their heart and continue the affair. The parents are told because as grandparents they are about to lose half of the time with their grandchildren and son/daughter-in-law, and because they may have some influence in helping their child do the right thing. Siblings are told because at half the family celebrations, such as holidays, the kids and the brother/sister-in-law will no longer be there--and because our siblings are often the ones who offer you support to get through this! Employers are told because you will be out of the office for court dates or legal appointments...and both of you will have lower productivity for a while. Also if it is a workplace affair, they may have legal issues if they don't address sexual harassment in the workplace. Lifelong friends are told because sometimes people are at odds or estranged from their own family, and their lifelong friends are "family by choice" so you tell them so they can help. So you can see that the term is not meant as "spread this around to harm your partner and create bad gossip" but rather as a way of acting on a boundary: "I expect a partner who is 100% faithful and will accept nothing less. If you are not offering 100% fidelity, I am not willing to lie and cover it up, nor am I willing to cooperate with adultery and call it be more romantic euphemisms."

After Exposure, we suggest Step Five: Carrot & Stick (similar to Plan A). This step has two parts that you do simultaneously:A) Carrot and B) Stick. An affair doesn't happen in a vacuum, and almost universally infidelity experts realize that an affair is a symptom of deeper problems in the marriage. So when you have a symptom, you look for the deeper illness and then take antibiotics to cure the illness, right? Same here. You can not control her but you can control YOU, so look to yourself and what you did to contribute to the troubles in the marriage. What Love Kindlers did you gradually stop doing? What Love Extinguishers did you gradually start doing more and more? A)Carrot is looking at yourself, working on yourself, looking good-smelling good, and showing your disloyal that you are able to be an attractive partner. Part of this is 180 and LRT--namely if you look at yourself and realize you had been working too hard and not paying attention--they learn how to balance worklife/homelife and learn how to be an active listener. If you have been given up recreations, ask her to join and get a life. The point of A)Carrot is not to be a doormat, but rather to remember the man you used to be who attracted her in the first place, and be that kind of man again! Be the man you can be!

B)Stick is closer to the 180 and LRT. In this second part of Step Five, which we suggest you do at the same time as A)Carrot, you allow your Disloyal Spouse to experience the consequences of their choice to continue to be unfaithful. This is not punishment! Just don't stand in the way of natural consequences. For example, if you two had a joint cell phone bill and you've always paid the bill...and the way she stays in contact with her lover is through the cell phone, why this B)Stick would be to identify out loud for her the boundary that you will not pay for her to carry on with another man, so if she chooses to do that, you will stop paying for her cell phone. Now, you can not control her, so she may decide to buy her own cell phone or let her lover buy her one, but you can control YOU...and YOU will not pay for your wife to have a lover! See how that's a boundary...and you're setting the fence around what you will and will not do, not telling her what she can and can not do. She's free to choose--you just won't pay so she can commit adultery! 

During this step--Step Five: Carrot & Stick--it is vital that you get a life, carry on with improving yourself, restart an old hobby or recreation, and maybe even go to individual counseling for your own issues. The idea is that at the same time you show her the POSITIVE she could have, and show her the NEGATIVE costs of continuing infidelity. Showing her those two things at the same time increase the likelihood of wanting to end the affair and return to the marriage--it's not a guarantee but the chances can be improved. 

Our next step, Step Six: Consequences/No Contact sort of straddles the 180/LRT of Divorce Busters. Most people will try Step Five for a while but the emotional toll of showing the benefits of the marriage while he/she is still being unfaithful can really be exhausting. This step is on the firmer end of 180/LRT. We suggest sending a letter to explain that you see your part, that you've done work to address your part, but that the emotional pain is too great and until they're ready to do A, B, and C you will need to have no contact with them. 

In our steps, we have one place where you gather evidence and that's at the beginning when you have that feeling that something's wrong but no proof. After you have proof, you have no need to gather any more evidence--because you know it is unfaithfulness! Once your disloyal spouse agrees to end the affair and work on the marriage, many loyal spouses make the mistake of saying, "Now I have to snoop on them to see if they mean it." NOPE! Part of the A, B, and C of returning is that the Disloyal agrees that it is THEIR JOB to show you by transparency that it really is over! THEY offer their phone, their email account, their passwords. If they don't, then it doesn't meet A, B, and C and there is no reconciliation. 

Same for exposure. You don't go to their parents over and over with every gossipy detail of the affair and your marriage...or turn to friends over every single fight. That's just trying to get people on your side! Nope, you tell them once. You NOTIFY them in a pretty business-like manner, so they are not told half-truths or outright lies! Envision a boundary: you will not participate in adultery by covering it up, pretending it's not happening, or hiding it from the family. You will tell the truth, and nothing more. (By the way it's not "dragging her name through the mud" to tell the truth--it's acting unfaithfully that is "dragging her name through the mud." If you tell the truth and she's being faithful--that doesn't harm her reputation does it? So see how that's a very common lie they get you to believe? It's their ACTIONS not you telling the truth once.) When she ends the affair and returns to the marriage, you'll tell the truth about that too! 

So I hope this helps clear up the confusion. They are not conflicting methodologies but really just expressed in different ways. Some of our steps straddle some of the 180/LRT but the same concepts are there.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

She says the A is over, yet, by your last post, she is STILL in contact with him.

The A is SO not over, and it sounds like she is waiting for everyone to calm down and the dust to settle so that she and OM can pick up again.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Thank you affaircare.
f102. I am remaining vigilant. Yesterday she called OM. He did not answer. OM spouse says he was not happy she called. He has supposedly committed to fixing his marriage. That is the only attempted phone contact in 6 days. It was for a reason that before the A he would've been called for. My W needs to realize she doesn't need. To call him. OM has pressure from ext family also. I talked NC letter from OM to my W. I think she feels there is still a chance for the A I told OM spouse how effective for my W the NC letter. Would be to end hopes. It is painful to witness her have no hope for our M but all this A stuff. I really do not think she is going to change her mind. I was going to txt her sibling to make sure it is known how I feel and not my W fog point of view. They will be together later.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

If your wife calls the OM, his wife should call her back and blast her for breaking NC. She must then tell your wife the OM has agreed to tell her every time your wife contacts him and should she persist he will obtain a restraining order against her.. 

I suggest the OM's wife call her soonish since the last attempt at contact was not that long ago.

The OM's wife must call you as well each and every time they contact each other, you must reciprocate.



> has pressure from ext family also.


What pressure?


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

The pressure= Close family that he cares deeply about that he will loose if he continued the A. They would decide no contact with him. That head of family had it out on him. In my W's case she doesn't have bonds like that. I will mention the R order. They still need to complete the NC letter and get on MB. I am still watching everything. My W is on the defensive after her last conversation with OM its like we are 2 weeks after D day. I have warned OM spouse to stay alert whenever my W has called he has told his W. I remain suspicious.
thanks again I am heeding your advice and trying to work with OM spouse as a united front.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Keep working on the OM's wife, the NC letter will be a smack of reality for your wife and the fantasy should start evaporationg. Do not fear if she leaves home, the children stay with you. If this does occur you must ensure the separation is legal in the event she claims you abandoned her. I have seen a tactic that the OM is subpoenaed to court, if your wife understands this she may rethink her position, do not disclose this unless you have to. 

The OM's wife must take advice she cannot do this on her own and it will align both of you in your strategy.

Carry on Plan A'ing. Be that man she fell in love with. Always tell your wife you love her and are willing to forgive and rebuild the marriage.

Keep the process in mind No Contact, Full transparency ,- honesty and openness, Full commitment to the steps required to recover the marriage and affair proof it for the future. 

These same steps have to be understood by the OM's wife, is she is not following the same processes she in turn will have problems in her marriage. 

If the OM refuses to sign the No Contact letter the advice for his wife is she has no choice but to disclose the affair herself to the immediate family, especially his side. 

Stay strong, prepare yourself for a tough time, it will get harder.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

One voice from the other side. There are many bitter people on these forums. You need to do what YOU think is best. EVERYONE'S SITUATION IS DIFFERENT. It takes time for change to start happening. Too close to D day and neither of you is thinking clearly - especially her. My WW went through a period of mourning over the loss of the OM and her relationship with him. IN retrospect, both times we were in no physical contact, it was because she had too recently had contact an OM and yes there was more than one. I did not follow ALL of the advise given here. I did what I thought would amke ehr comfortable and yes it is ****ty that you have to be one the use sense and compassion. The main question is what do you want in the future and how will what YOU do effect her. In my case, I decided my love for my WW was too strong and I wnated it eventually work out. As i said before, I worked on what I knew were love busters that I was doing and backed completely off. No exposure, no harassing, no "beating her up" (emotionally) as she called it. What worked for me may not work for you. Decide what you want and what you think will bring her back if that's what you want.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

8 years, Thanks for chiming in would love to hear more from you in the future. Our stories are very similar as far as our W's personalities seem. I have calmed down alot over the last couple of weeks. I have backed off prob 98% closing in on 100% I am thinking before I speak. Filtering those emotional thoughts. Validating, we have not argued in at least a week, she gets defensive over childrens events that she cannot attend due to schedule especially if it includes any atypical behavior on my part in arranging them I consider it a 180, such as not waiting on her. She said she is staying at her siblings tonight I said ok. Confirmed OM is at home with his kids. She is going to look at places tomorrow and can't make it home before work so I said ok instead of the kids are going to miss you. Should I have normal conversation about the places?
She stopped jolting away from my slight touch again, I need to stop testing that, she asked some questions about some small house work being planned and finished with do what you want but left out the whatever the house is going to be yours anyway like she said a week ago. I wont see her until monday. 
I have been low key and responding calmly to her. I am still watching for signs of contact, and found 1 txt fro OM to my W today. Now we can really question his commitment to NC. Will discuss with OM spouse.

I guess what is discouraging for me is she still is set on moving out and that has been consistent since shortly after D Day. I was just reading about EA's/ Relationship Affairs another site said they are the toughest to recover from and that the madly in love state can last from 6 - 36 months.


Does anyone have an opinion having regular conversation with ones spouse in these situations or giving compliments to the WW?
I am watching to make sure she is not still in the A. And I am trying to determine how to behave to occaisionally remind her that I still love her and that our family life and marriage mean alot.

Thanks again everyone


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

NoLongerSad said:


> disbelief,
> 
> you need to accept that your marriage is over, and do what is necessary to make the divorce as amicable as possible.
> 
> ...


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> you need to accept that your marriage is over, and do what is necessary to make the divorce as amicable as possible.
> 
> Your wife's intentions are crystal clear and she has not wavered on them. Is there some reason you don't want to take that at face value?


If more betrayed spouses took this advice, the divorce rate would be much higher than it is now - and it is incredibly high now! Can you imagine this:

"Hon, I don't love you anymore - I've met someone else - we need to divorce..."

"..Ok dear..."

If this were the advice we gave, there would be people on this forum, or who USED to be on this forum - that would be divorced right now instead of living happily together.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

I agree with Tanelornpete, She is mourning and trying desperately to hold onto the affair. Keep on the OM wife and get her to push the point about a restraining order and notify her of the new contact. WHen it comes to the moving out bit, tell her you don't agree and that you think it will result in lowering your chances of reconciliation and WILL NOT support it. Also tell her the kids will care and sense it even if they don't understand completely. Not confrontation, just state your opinion and position as "I feel" - NOT "you are". Measured steps with put brain in gear before opening mouth in play. The fog will not start to blow away until she begins feeling alone and feel a longing to be back. Encourage her to stay at her sisters because I doubt they will encourage her behaviour and maybe she will begin to talk to them. My wifes family was totally against her continuing the affair and let her know it. All of this will not be for naught if you do end up divorcing. Keeping it amicable willl save you both a lot of money, especially if you can convince her to use one lawyer with her having the abiltity to consult not retain an another attorney if she's not comfortable some aspect.

Stick with it! Heads up and hang on to that shred of hope. I think the tide is beggining to turn. Remember, she will try very hard to NOT give you any hope in the twisted belief that it will only hurt you more because she is not confident it can work out yet.

Stay the course - make it so.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

:iagree::iagree:

Indeed do state you are not agreeing her moving out, if she does still pays her portion of all the bills, do not make life easy for her. Take the sister into your confidence and mention the OM.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

The background on the "place" it started as a second ownership for her that we could possibly rent in the future because she just needed the space. She can't see renting because there are some purchases that are the same cost. I am avoiding the argument. A purchase this time of year can take 3 months.She said she didn't want to end up with us hating each other this was probably 6 weeks ago. She has never said she is done with our M. She is an emotional mess. I keep subtly reminding her I AM HERE. like a rock.
She has never actually asked for a seperation or divorce, when i did ask if that was what she wanted she never would answer. I took everyones advice and put those words away.
She is taking baby steps towards a real seperation. I will not ask for the divorce she wants it she can ask I will not make that easy.
She is still taking care of business I am keeping an eye on everything. 
I will fight harder to fix it my children deserve that, as messed up as this is, this marriage deserves it.
Her sister knows the story and confronterd OM according to OM spouse. OM Spouse said he was going to send a NC text because he does not like letters that may have been last nights one way txt. I will be following up.
If I had told my W no don't go look at places that would have made her want to look more. So when she said she was going i said in my supportive friend voice, you know where I am if you need anything. She had a slightly surprised look on her face. I have come to realize through everyones feedback and all my reading a better way to act so I thank you all. I have read about validation.
This could have been me in her shoes. 
She knows I do not want her to move out my IC knows that our MC knows that, i did tell her but you need to do what you need to do and I can't stop you. That seemed to take some wind out of the sail.

DO I tell her to stay somwhere else? Or Just not discourage it when she decides to. I also want her to be reminded that her family wants her here. There is a whole lot of I miss mommy starting. But If I tell her that I am using the children against her according to my W.
I sometimes write what I need to say because when I actually say it I miss points or it comes out wrong.

Time will tell. It's nice out, cold but nice I should close this computer for the day and take the kids outside maybe ring up some lights.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

> OM Spouse said he was going to send a* NC text *because he does not like letters that may have been last nights one way txt. I will be following up.


Not good enough he is dictating the terms, a text can be denied, a NC letter is sent from his mail account so it can tracked (forwarded to family if needed), even better that he mails it and handwrites one, then there is no claiming his wife forced him and the message to your wife is absolute.

If you can get the OM's wife to have him write a letter of apology to you as well, doubt you will get this but hey if he is committed to his marriage he should be moving mountains, the fact that he is not tells the OM's wife he is not going to stop the affair, perhaps for the moment but when the dust has settled who knows.

He is doing his best to worm out of his accountability in the affair and I bet he is not admitting this is an affair and he was committing adultery. The OM's wife must not be fooled by this because when it comes to him committing to the NC permanently then he will be in a denial stage.

Friends of the family or not they must never ever see or communicate with each other again. Doing so undoes NC and they start with the feelings again. This is the other reason why you have to let your families know, they will wonder why your two families will not be in contact or attend functions together. 

Both your families must not pretend, this is very serious, they were committing adultery and it is a disease like smoking crack once hooked they cannot sniff it again ever or they are back to the beginning.



> DO I tell her to stay somwhere else? Or Just not discourage it when she decides to.


No don't encourage or discourage her , the decision is hers alone, she is a big girl she knows she is hurting the children and you. The moment she steps out you switch to plan B, read up on plan B.


You are doing well considering the circumstances, so stay strong and look after yourself.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Staying with her sister may cause discussions since she appears to be against the affair. While the seperation may not be what want, it sounds like it would the safest way to do so and allow her to start feeling the loneliness and realize what she is giving up. It would also be limited in time - say 2 weeks or so. During the time, keep in touch with ehr sister and let her know it's not what you want, you just want to give space and a chance to talk to her to her sister.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Eli I agree with the NC points I am working on OM spouse if he did the txt that's a start. She is also trying not to push to hard so he doesn't back away from the idea. An apology letter will prob take more time the nc would be more effective now.

8 yrs any conversation I have with her sis I am breaking a promise I said I would respect that relationship so I have occaisionally. One way texted so I cannot intrude on that private ground everybody needs at least one person. But maybe one conversation just to be sure she knows where I stand.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Tanelornpete said:


> If more betrayed spouses took this advice, the divorce rate would be much higher than it is now - and it is incredibly high now! Can you imagine this:
> 
> "Hon, I don't love you anymore - I've met someone else - we need to divorce..."
> 
> ...


I think that is a simplistic summarizing.

Given the descriptions of the OP's situation.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

blueyes said:


> Like I said, try to get her to stay in the house without being to needy, almost like you don't care, and if she wants to talk just listen, to her don't try to solve her problems, just agree or acknowledge her but just listen. Thats the most important thing. If she was truely done she would be gone already not waiting to buy a house. Just slow and baby steps. good luck


Rereading to see where my head has been. So would this be along the lines of actions speak louder than words. She is still making sure the bills are all set. I got her to go grocery shopping to regain perspective on that expense. She has not complained about what we are spending since. I know they are small things. But I would think if she was done she would do absolutely nothing.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

I still have that sinking feeling that she wants out of this marriage, but she wants YOU to drop the D-bomb first!


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

F-102 said:


> I still have that sinking feeling that she wants out of this marriage, but she wants YOU to drop the D-bomb first!


That's what my gut says too but I wont do it......she is going to have to say it. I think for her the A is just ending. All the other info I have been given says OM has been telling her its done. MC thursday
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> I still have that sinking feeling that she wants out of this marriage, but she wants YOU to drop the D-bomb first!


That's relatively common - that way she isn't 'guilty' of ending the marriage. The solution is to let her do the filing. The longer she puts that off, the more time you'd have to let the affair 'zing' die, and more realistic thoughts settle back in - as well as time for her to notice that you are actually growing as a person....


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Tanelornpete said:


> That's relatively common - that way she isn't 'guilty' of ending the marriage. The solution is to let her do the filing. The longer she puts that off, the more time....
> Thank you.
> 
> Any input on how to start relaying to her the kids are saying I miss mommy more than usual. If I tell her she feels I. Am exaggerating.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

I wouldn't push that very much - - it's way too manipulative (as in "...but think of the children!!!!..." - the way politicians extort from us all the time...) That will come out over time on it's own, and the kids will say it to her in their own words. 

At the same time, her opinion of what you say is not reflective of what is being said. So what if she claims it is 'exaggerating'! Is it? If not, then why worry about her claim? If the topic comes up, just be truthful, and give her the freedom to choose to beleive or disbelieve!


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

disbelief said:


> Any input on how to start relaying to her the kids are saying I miss mommy more than usual. If I tell her she feels I. Am exaggerating.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Disbelief, sounds like your wife is determined to demonstrate she is the victim in all this. Very difficult to handle that.

It’s called the “Drama Triangle” and she’s expecting you to jump in and rescue her. Be careful what you do, she may well drag you down with her. Have a look at Drama Triangle: The Three Faces of Victim by Lynne Forrest and see if it’s applicable and makes sense to you.

Bob


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## rome2012 (Sep 10, 2010)

disbelief said:


> Any input on how to start relaying to her the kids are saying I miss mommy more than usual. If I tell her she feels I. Am exaggerating.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My kids don't know about their father's intention yet, but I've been going to the gym for about 3-4 hours every night now .....right after work to usually around the time that the boys go to bed, so husband had to bring them to bed.....and my oldest (9) said "Mommy, I really miss you when you're gone to the gym" and I said "Did you tell daddy that ??" and he said he did and asked him every night "When is mommy coming home ???".....made me smile because that's just a small portion of what it's going to be like if he divorces me....

Maybe next time your kids tell you they miss mommy, tell them "Why don't you tell mommy yourself that you are ???"...

Makes a bigger impact on her than you saying it...

But * don't * say "Next time you see mommy make sure that you tell her you miss her really bad !!!" 

That can backfire !!!!!!


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Okay I have a couple of things that I would like to comment on, disbelief. 

#1) Regarding _"Hon, I don't love you anymore - I've met someone else - we need to divorce..." "..Ok dear..."_ being an oversimplification, of course it is an oversimplification, absolutely. That's the point. If everyone who heard "I love you but I'm not in love with you" just accepted that the marriage was over at the drop of a hat, we'd have a 100% divorce rate. Even those of us who love our spouses and are committed will sometimes say something mean like that in the heat of an argument! So in the same way that you don't take those "fightin' words" and just accept them...same here. Try to remember your spouse's true character and how she behaved the other 10-15 years and recognize that this may be an extended period of not behaving in a way that is true to who she is...sort of like an extended period of "fightin' words" which you later look back on with some humiliation when you come back to your true self.

#2) This is just a general topic, but I see an awful lot of comments about you watching your wife and "making her" realize she needs to have no contact, or posts/recommendations about "making the OM's wife" do something. Here are a couple examples: 



> ...his wife should call her back and blast her for breaking NC.
> ...She must then tell your wife the OM has agreed to tell her every time your wife contacts him
> ...The OM's wife must call you as well each and every time they contact each other
> ...They still need to complete the NC letter and get on MB
> ...


I realize that many of these are from suggestions to you, but from what I can observe this indicates a bigger issue: namely CONTROL. Are you aware that you can not control your wife and MAKE her end this affair? If she is unwilling to end it, she will find a way to continue, be more sneaky, or just up and leave altogether! And are you aware you can not control the OM's wife at all? It would be very nice if the two of you could cooperate and keep each other updated about her H's and your W's movements, stories etc. but you can not MAKE her. She could decide to tell you "Bug off buddy! This is my marriage and I'll handle it like I want!" and then proceed to kick him out and divorce him (leaving him free for your wife)! 

Disbelief, in the end, both your your wife and the OM's wife need to choose to do these things of their own free will and pursue them because THEY chose to do so. If your wife chooses to continue to be unfaithful, she may end the affair with this guy but also continue to see you as the guy who snooped and interfered until you drove away the love of her life and resent you for it, and your goal is to re-kindle love. So I would recommend strongly that with both your wife and the OM's wife you accept that you just can not control them or "make" them do anything. You can make a respectful request and explain to them every reason why you are making that request--so they can follow how you reached that conclusion. But in the end, think of your wife similar to a drug addict or an alcoholic; even if you remove all the drugs or booze from the house, if she's determined, she'll find a way to sneak out and get it. An addict doesn't recover until it is something THEY choose to do themselves and then THEY will need to learn how to police themselves. 

So does that make sense? When you try to "make" your wife not call...or "make" the OM's wife sign up on MB, you may think that is a wise idea and you may even have very, very good reasons! It is conceivable that their opinion may vary. But it shows disrespect for the person to make them do it your way, and right now I don't think that's the way you want to treat your wife (disrespectfully). If I'm not mistaken, I think you'd rather show her, via your actions, that you can treat her lovingly and respectfully. Thus, when you do talk to either one of them, I'd suggest making a respectful request. Just say it right out loud, " I would like to respectfully request that you XYZ for these reasons: 1, 2, 3" 

#3) Finally, regarding her moving out v. staying at sister's, and saying "the kids miss you" I would suggest this. If you are working on yourself, getting a life, becoming the guy you have the potential to be, ending the Love Extinguishers, and re-starting Love Kindlers, you will be better able to show her those changes if she does not move out. One possible solution might be to suggest a MUTUAL UNDERSTANDING. Let her know you understand she is considering moving out but in an effort to be financially responsible adults around the Holiday Season, what if we agreed to an "in house" separation and splitting the bills 50/50? Have her rent a room or something! Be creative. The point is that choice #1 would be have her stay home in your bed "no rush to make a decision", #2 have her stay home at least, #3 stay with her sister and #4 rent or buy something (because option #4 will carry legal implications such as a lease or mortgage). But no matter which choice you two finally select, please don't use "the kids miss you." If the kids do miss her, give them permission to tell her that themselves...it is between her and her children and it is their relationship. Using them as a tool in YOUR relationship (ie, using children as leverage in the adult relationship) is not cool for the kids or the adults. Guilting someone does not win love. Being LOVING and the kind of man she would admire and love...does!


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Dale&Alex said:


> My kids don't Maybe next time your kids tell you they miss mommy, tell them "Why don't you tell mommy yourself that you are ???"...
> 
> Makes a bigger impact on her than you saying it...
> 
> ...


Thats what ended up happening tonight the youngest asked to call her back to tell her that. My children will learn to express their emotions. My W has bottled up all these years instead of expressing. She just said tonight she knows they will miss her. Maybe reality is coming back a bit.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Affaircare,
All the lines you quoted I believe were written in reponse to me I have taken them as cautious advice. I watch the phone as self protection. If there are no calls ok but if there were many I would be a fool IMHO to put up with it long term. As far as the OM wife, I am just trying to make her more aware as you have for me. She had not gone on any forums and was not believing the possibility of the OM still lying. She had planned to write a letter from the beginning. I suggested MB. I told her what I knew but said she had to do what worked for her. As far as my W I wish I could control her hypnotize her and go back in time but I know I cannot. Your input has saved me from making futher mistakes judging by our interaction tonight we can at least talk again.
All conversations I have been holding with respect. I have reeled in those emotions. I still do not like my situation.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Disbelief. Some of the posts on my threads made me question my own decisions and beliefs unnecessarily. I followed my heart which could have led to disaster but it did not. You are making progress even if it doesn't always feel like it. Only time in your WW case will start her back toward you. After my wife made the decision to come back and in our first MC session, she stated she did not feel worthy of my love after all she had done to me which was why she was considering divorce before. It may be the same feelings your wife is. Having. Same for the kids. The fog causes some serious self centered thoughts as well. You are doing a great job! Start working on the things you know bothered her. My MC told me the way I handled myself and the changes I made were what turned the tide with my wife. He commended me strongly for what I did. 

Stay the course there is hope.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Affaircare said:


> Okay I have a couple of things that I would like to comment on, disbelief.
> 
> #3) Finally, regarding her moving out v. staying at sister's, and saying "the kids miss you" I would suggest this. If you are working on yourself, getting a life, becoming the guy you have the potential to be, ending the Love Extinguishers, and re-starting Love Kindlers, you will be better able to show her those changes if she does not move out. One possible solution might be to suggest a MUTUAL UNDERSTANDING. Let her know you understand she is considering moving out but in an effort to be financially responsible adults around the Holiday Season, what if we agreed to an "in house" separation and splitting the bills 50/50? Have her rent a room or something! Be creative. The point is that choice #1 would be have her stay home in your bed "no rush to make a decision", #2 have her stay home at least, #3 stay with her sister and #4 rent or buy something (because option #4 will carry legal implications such as a lease or mortgage). But no matter which choice you two finally select, please don't use "the kids miss you." If the kids do miss her, give them permission to tell her that themselves...it is between her and her children and it is their relationship. Using them as a tool in YOUR relationship (ie, using children as leverage in the adult relationship) is not cool for the kids or the adults. Guilting someone does not win love. Being LOVING and the kind of man she would admire and love...does!


Well she jumps right to 4. She feels she needs her own space. She wants to go get the legal paperwork done so she can get a mortgage approved and i do not have to change this one. She feels she can't stay at her sisters she doesn't want to rent she found a property that is also a good investment property. I have not used miss the kids I am letting the kids do that themselves. Buying over the holidays should take a couple months. We still haven't had a good solid financial conversation. One of us has been to emotional each time. 
She discussed the property told me she had to get legal advice on a couple of things. She still fears i am going to pull some evil card on something with the kids like custody ??? That almost reinforces Fog because I just am not like that. She completly dismissed the notion that she was going to speak to a lawyer about D, only real estate. She followed up with you never know what 6 months from now will bring. I asked her what she needs right now. She said she needs a home. She doesn't feel at home .....in her home and she admits she created that. She discussed our differences that lead to some of this. I wish she had been so direct in the past. She somewhat took responsibility for not being direct. 
I said something about there being another choice and she is just stuck that there is no other way to go. How can there be, this will never go away, it will always be there she says . She believes I am going to hold ( I think her it was the A) over her forever. The marital things she described all comes down to communication. I did not push, that was the most she let out since D Day.
She would not answer the question of wether or not she was still speaking with OM she rolled her eyes at me and said why don't you ask OM wife. Why don't you check the phone bill. I didn't really respond. This to me either means she is or he did do a NC via txt last night.
I suppose a couple months is enough to work on stuff. Even if she goes through with the purchase. If I fight it that would probably be worse. I was calm and kind tonight I reminded her I cared. I did not ask about our future I let her lead the conversation. I have learned. 
She wouldn't look me in the eye when talking about the real estate.
I don't know if anything I do will open her mind to the possibility of recovery. What could I say to stimulate that thought process?


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

> What could I say to stimulate that thought process?


Not a damn thing. She is going to do what she does and your actions may have a marginal influence on that. Thinking if you could just somehow get the words right, or the actions right in order to get her to do what you want is faulty thinking. And it's backwards thinking. All you can do is try to figure out being a single parent, try to find some things that make you happy, and go forward assuming you will be divorced. That will make you the most attractive to her. And if she comes around then great. If she doesn't...great too.

Try to stop revolving your actions around her and start revolving them around what YOU want.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

I disagree. She told you what bothered here and started talking which is a start. You don't have to fight her on the moving out, just tell her it's not what you want and you won't discuss it for 3-6 months, there is no rush. Again, focus on what you what you can change that she said bothered her. Some of it will be difficult to change without the two of you working on it, do what you can anyway. I never stopped telling my wife I loved her and wanted her to stay. With regards to the OM, I just told her I couldn't live with her continuing to see him and I deserved the respect of her stopping. Tell her you can get past this if she stops. That she is more important than the affair to you. Don't add anything to that - stop after saying it so it sticks.

Stay the course - she is starting to get some, albiet a very small amount of clarity. Practice active listening - that is do not try to comment on or fix everything she says - mirror or repeat back to her what she said. My IC told me the biggest mistake men make is they try to fix everything when most of the time women want you to just listen and know your understanding - not jumping in to fix it. Use " did I understand you correctly you said" or just repeat back in paraphrase what she said. I did start my own long term planning to be without her. I just wouldn't throw the towel in yet.

Stay the course - your doing well. Just don't discuss the moving out bit - stall.

Your doing a great job even though it doesn't feel like it. Head up!! If it's really getting you down, go see your MD and ask him for some meds to help.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

seeking sanity said:


> Not a damn thing. She is going to do what she does and your actions may have a marginal influence on that. Thinking if you could just somehow get the words right, or the actions right in order to get her to do what you want is faulty thinking. And it's backwards thinking. All you can do is try to figure out being a single parent, try to find some things that make you happy, and go forward assuming you will be divorced. That will make you the most attractive to her. And if she comes around then great. If she doesn't...great too.
> 
> Try to stop revolving your actions around her and start revolving them around what YOU want.


I didn't mean it in the way to get her to do what I want. But in that way when you just want someone to see there maybe another possibility. I let it out here and not at her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Thanks 8 years. Time will tell. Preparing for the worst hoping for the best heeding all advice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Well the last OM text was typed of his own free will witnessed by his spouse telling my W no conact . I don't know the whole context its a start and my W'S demeanor is different since the text also. I will still be working on things posted. Boy was I naive to think adult life would not hold this high school drama. A lifetime goal I have gained from this, to teach my children to express their emotions and communicate well with others.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

Best of luck bud, we're here for you.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Any thoughts we have MC this week my W seems more and more depressed do I just say it at the appointment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Affaircare,
I know there has been alot of back and forth on exposing her. I just want to clarify. My inaction was due to lack of proof. If it still seems that the OM has ended the A and there is NC or I cannot prove it, the you are saying it makes no sense to expose the affair correct.
Now my W feels the need to seperate anyway. She at this point stated her parent will not know until it is to late. Should I stick my nose in there and let them know whats going on or that is her family so her business. 
I thank you for you help. All this lack of sleep is affecting my thinking. The sleep should improve soon. MD helps.
She still has not asked for a seperation or D but she is actively searching for a place.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Disbelief~

If you don't have proof, and the OM is kind of being a jerk and dumping her, and from what you *CAN* see the A is over...then there is no point in exposing it because no A is going on. The reason you expose is to end the affair and so it's no longer a secret while they go around blaming you for their choice. 

If "the love of her life" is dumping her (that's the way she sort of views it) then it seems normal that she'd be sad about that and walk around moping and depressed. If she says stuff about separating, I would suggest a stall tactic such as "it's the Holidays now and I'd really rather not make big moves and changes during the Holidays. Would you consider just putting off this action until the beginning of the year?" "May I make the request that we agree to get through this one last Holiday Season and then start the new year off fresh in a new way at that time?" or if she is really adamant, ask if she'd be willing to move to a guest bedroom "until the Holidays are over." This tactic just gives her a little time apart from the OM (out from under his sway) and give YOU a little time to really shine and show her that choosing she could build love and happiness at home--with the father of her children. (And FYI, you're not stalling with no intent to be cooperative after the holidays or in the new year...just asking for time to put off this major life decision.)

THEN during the stall time period it is VITAL...I mean life-and-death vital--for you to work on yourself, go to counseling if need be, be the father who takes the kids ice skating, etc. Right this second she remembers the really bad stuff right before the affair, and that's what she associates with you...so show her some good stuff. STOP all Love Extinguishers (you'd want to be that kind of person anyway). Get a life and enjoy your children--and let her enjoy them with you! Away from the OM and seeing you being the man you can be it is conceivable she may start to have some hope, and I believe it's your best chance. 

Regarding her parents, I am not positive I would go there right this minute. Based on what you write, the A is not going on and she may just need some time to recover from being dumped. So if she agrees to stall and stays home, just be vigilant and have that in mind. If it's possible, they aren't in contact, and she's at home let's see what happens. If she does INSIST on moving out, then I would indeed tell the parents but as factually as possible: "I am so sorry to have to tell you but I thought you should know--dear wife has chosen to move out again and she and I are separating. The truly upsetting part is that I do have proof that she was involved in an affair that her other man ended, and I think the affair is strongly influencing her thinking. I do have evidence if you need to see it, and I've been in touch with the other man's spouse to confirm it, but I don't want to embarrass her--I just think it's relevant to the decision. So the kids and I will be living at home hoping she will decide to return to the family, and she will be living at XXX."


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

I would normally expose and force the issue on the table but the advice above is sound.



> Regarding her parents, I am not positive I would go there right this minute. Based on what you write, the A is not going on and she may just need some time to recover from being dumped. So be vigilant and have that in mind, but if it's possible let's see what happens. If she does INSIST on moving out, then I would indeed tell the parents but as factually as possible:"I am so sorry to have to tell you but I thought you should know--dear wife has chosen to move out again and she and I are separating. The truly upsetting part is that I do have proof that she was involved in an affair that her other man ended, and I think the affair is strongly influencing her thinking. I do have evidence if you need to see it, and I've been in touch with the other man's spouse to confirm it, but I don't want to embarrass her--I just think it's relevant to the decision. So the kids and I will be living at home hoping she will decide to return to the family, and she will be living at XXX."


:iagree:


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Thank you both,
evidence....all I have is phone records. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

This mornings calm conversation reveals that she says she is numb as far as her feelings go. She still feels the need to move to her own place. I reminded her how much I love her how much she means to me and the family as a whole. She did not get upset. I said I could get over and through this and forgive her. Her response was that she is not sure if she could. She still has not directly asked for the seperation or D. I essentially said if u need your time and space I can't change that. I said things don't have to be final yet she really did not respond. That's the nutshell. We, well she went on about some marriage things that upset her. I actively listened, did not argue. Most of them I cannot change because it is what our life evolved into a change in roles due to employment changes. But she always said it did not bother her, turns out it does. I am not exagerating here so on face value and her not getting mad how is all that. It is paraphrased. My one mistake before that conversation was mentioning I wanted to go out tonight asking if she still had something. She did and asked where I wanted to go I said nevermind she perceived that as me keeping secrets. Made her not happy. I explained she angrily explained all the details of how and why it made her mad.

I suppose if it doesn't kill me it will makee me stronger.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Reread my three threads. Sounds exactly like my wife at that point
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

8yearscheating said:


> Reread my three threads. Sounds exactly like my wife at that point
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok thnks but do u men ur three posts here or your thread you had going plus 2 more ? Rered these post any way
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Affaircare let me know if I am relating to the A mindset. I was dumped in high school and did not get over for a long time a 8 month girlfriend, friends to relationship to physical to breakup and then on again off again. When I Happened to run into her recently the memories of the feelings were still there and in HS she could have strung me along forever and did for quite a while. Now we are 20 plus years out from tht R so how does a M ever. Really recover. Funny thing is when I saw her She behaved like she would have in high school until her H ws around. I can say back then I ws infatuated and the breakup thinking back was like a withdrwal. Well i could have done without remembering all that. We always saw each other in hs so forgetting and distancing was impossible. Thanks again
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

If you search by my name you'll see one on sexting and one about a big mistake. They were my 1st and 3rd threads respectively.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

Find out if she is seeing a lawyer. She may be getting legal advice to keep dragging her feet and have you get so sick of it that you will drop the D-bomb first. Big payout, here she comes!


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

She says she is not I think deep inside she doesn't want the M to be over but she is messed she can ask for a d I will wait. My free consult said it doesn't matter here anyway. She says rt now she feels numb who knows starting to care less a little at a time.a
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

MC today I don't even know what to discuss.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Well MC reveals the confirmation to 100% that she wants to move out. Unless it's the fog. She has seen the WAW video and threw that in my face. 
Some marriage issues were discussed the A issuse was not really discussed. She ended up saying she never said the A was my fault. She has created the situation.
She still is very angry saying she trusts no one and is tired of broken promises, (I haven't broken promises to her) and things not being done that people said they would do she reffered to the past me not getting things done around the house and others not doing things. 
She said she just wants her own place. While angry she said I can have everything she doesn't want anything. I said I still did not know what she wanted I was referring to long term. MC asked if it was D time. i said it was not what I wanted when she asked my W she did not respond head down and so on. What does that mean? Anything? 
But she wants to move on a property of her own so we need to do a seperation agreement. Her purchase would keep her in the house for a couple more months. I'm not sure how to handle this. Continue trying to save or just div. But I don't want div. I also can't see how doing anything suggested helps. She did recognize where I have improved.

She saw her IC and her demeanor was very different on the phone when she called. We are about 8 weeks since D Day about 12 days since OM told her off again and 5 since he sent a NC text. So is it like being back at starting point? As far as I can tell there has been no contact unless she has been completly covert. She has been home more and home on time from work. Does anyone believe marital seperations work?

I am running parallel plans focusing on me and the kids seeing what she does. Any advice is again welcome.
I still do not want a D i must be crazy.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

What is the WAW video?


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Walk away wife. Google it some youtube videos.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Wow are the extreme mood swings part of the fog. I was trying to be nice and make small talk while she was getting ready for work that didn't work she said she is done talking. At this very moment I feel like throwing! in the towel. Well we really won't see each other until sunday. Any ideas or referrals to threads with the same theme.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

disbelief said:


> Wow are the extreme mood swings part of the fog. I was trying to be nice and make small talk while she was getting ready for work that didn't work she said she is done talking. At this very moment I feel like throwing! in the towel. Well we really won't see each other until sunday. Any ideas or referrals to threads with the same theme.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not only extreme mood swings but also the split personality. At some moments you may even think that the affair is over and 5 minutes later they are back in the fog.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Not ready,
How do you cope with that. Does it just come back to not believing really any of what is said. She is so far out of her norm. And how long I wonder does being in this altered mental status take before it has a permanent effect on personality.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

disbelief said:


> Not ready,
> How do you cope with that. Does it just come back to not believing really any of what is said. She is so far out of her norm. And how long I wonder does being in this altered mental status take before it has a permanent effect on personality.


Purely anecdotally, I would estimate that affairs that are shorter return closer to "the norm" faster than affairs that are long-term or particularly spiteful. So if the affair is a 2 month EA and both actually work at the recovery--both individuals grow and change but they return to "the new norm" fairly quickly. On the other hand, if an affair is separation for a full year that is EA/PA, the OP and Disloyal were living together, and either one or both of the Loyal and Disloyal were spiteful and vindictive--it takes considerable work and time for both individuals to recover from that, grow and change,and then return to "the new norm" after rebuilding--probably another full year would be just a guesstimate. And the longer someone is involved in an ongoing, vindictive kind of affair, the stronger and more permanent the effects on personality become. In layman's terms I think someone stuck in adultery-fog learns the habit of behaving cruelly and maliciously and just are stuck in that habit.

You can see now why we suggest killing the affair as quickly as possible. Yes there may be some anger and fallout from ending it, but marriages can survive anger and rebuild something healthy--they just can NOT survive unfaithfulness.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

disbelief said:


> Not ready,
> How do you cope with that. Does it just come back to not believing really any of what is said. She is so far out of her norm. And how long I wonder does being in this altered mental status take before it has a permanent effect on personality.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I just did not beleive a word he would say and I still don't and he still lies even now that we are divorced. I still have few ways to check that he lies and my predictions and what I was told about the personality of the OW by her now ex H are all coming out to light. The OW starts to exhibit her golddigger personality, my ex continues to be in a fog like environment, my naive ex MIL believes everything he says to her etc.

Now we all want to maintain positive attitude that things will get better but don't cling on that hope too much. I think that's what slows me down in my moving on process then and even now sometimes. 

In the meantime divorced or not, try to take care of your OWN life(yes it's good to be selfish sometimes), take care of kids and family that care about you and watchout the fallout of the DS from the sidelines. 

But at least consider yourself somewhat lucky that she is at least communicating to you about the affair sometimes. I got none of that up to this day. As if it never happened.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Thanks for the responses my response yesterday failed to post. Due to the weekend schedule W and I have not seen each other since friday Pm. She has made no attempt to contact me all weekend. I txt once left note about kids. I have no idea what to expect when I get home anybody want to remind me a good way to behave? A friend reminded me I was a nice guy today. Don't know how much longer that side of me will last.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

So I cannot prove anything but there is an period of data activity on the cell bill that matches small emails. Same time frame OM would have been working and W stayed at siblings, confirmed she was there, unless sibling is lying now too I am at the TRUST NOONE stage. Unless i can get OM wife to convince OM to let her into his email there is no proof. My W still does not even want to talk, period. Just throwing this out there hard to act on no evidence.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

I just noticed the wedding picture is put away again. Our limited interaction yesterday.....she was angry towards me. I have no real proof of any contact with OM nothing on cell or txt the data the other night but that could have been any thing. Our communication on regular things is decreasing in quality. She is not communicating in my direction. Should I confront or ignore. When I confront she usually clams up. MC hasn't helped much to work through emotions or the like. I am not sure what to do from here I am beginning to see why people just choose the D as the seemingly easy option. I am also pretty sure she is truly depressed at this point butis prob hiding it from her IC. Some advice please.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

I know it's hard but try to just wait until she is ready to talk to you. Others will say differently. Confronting will only cause her to withdraw further. Until she is ready to start communication there is nothing you can do other than resist moving out by stalling, keep up your vigilance - add a keyboard logger just in case she gets lazy and uses the home computer. If you can get ahold of her phone for a time when she can't detect you, put a phone spy software on it. Make damn sure she won't catch you.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

If the OM has truly started NC, she is mourning over the loss. In any case the fog continues and she is probably still thinking you are better off without her out of shame and guilt which she doesn't want to admit or discuss. Keep working on you and changing anything you can that you know bothers her. Did you try giving her the lovebusters questionaire?


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Thanks 8 Phone spy wares not an option unless I can send it remotely and she truly is not using the pc. I keep checking NC with OM spouse but I don't think she is as suspicious as I am. I was reminded yesterday by a respected colleague to just take it slow and likely I will make the rt decision. I am at the point of wanting to just flip the switch and fix it. I know wont happen.
As far as the love busters. No she is not open to anything like that yet. She thinks that no book no website can help. I need a new approach from the MC. I think we need some time of everyday conversation first. She started normal talk this AM I was confused. I told a friend I would do this for a year to give it my all. But she is stomping on my heart. She still has not taken the next step on the property she wanted to purchase or seperation agreement. If I want to save this I am a rock ......righ????
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

Stick to it if you really want to save M. It takes time for the fog to burn off. My MC told wife she had to reveal if she wanted to work things out. It's obvious you wife hasn't gotten to that point yet and I completely understand your frustration and wanting to get it done or over. My wife said some terrible things that really hurt before she started to come out of it. She regrets it all now. Don't pressure the OM's wife or she might shut down on you.

Discretion is the better part of valor. Stick to it and wait. Use your active listening skillls - mirror or paraphrase what she says - -don't comment or try to move ahead in the conversation.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

I am beginning to feel numb about it possibly due to th MD'S assistance. My goal is to get through xmass then see what kind of changes happen or I make happen. I was reminded this week that I have a large group of friends I can call on for support. I was reminded twice I was a nice guy and don't deserve this. She was angry because she missed out on a kid event yesterday. She was all nice this morning. Rollercoasters cause pain. Thanks again for your support. I am having a negative day on this subject.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

Agree with 8 yrs., perhaps the A truly is over, and she is in mourning stage, and she is feeling towrds you like "Now he's gone, I hope you're happy, you a**hole!" It will take time, and the counseling will take time, too. I would seriously allow her the seperation, but don't D yet, there may be hope, still. She may very well be the type who doesn't know what she's got until it's gone.

Until then, work on you, be the best father and man you can be.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Perhaps it is so, she is very angry and said herself she doesn't know why. I probably sound like I pursue but I don't I vent alot here. I am letting her lead. It seems to be more productive. She went and got papers today from the courrhouse so she could buy her place but she still wont say D. I guess we shall see when I get those papers. She's in a very happy mood rt now, drink? Meds? I don't know wasn't home for a couple hours.
She still only sees ending it as the fix I tried to suggest seperate and she needs to move out fine but why rush the D. She ended up crying all I can do is wait and see. Take care of me and kids. Hope its the fog darn emotions still love her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

A ray of hope for you disbelief - once my wife started to realize the impact of her decisions - i.e. the kids, financials, custody, etc. she began to see things differently. Contact your lawyer and find out what abandonment means in terms of custody in your state, same for the affair in terms of seperation of assests and child support since you said you wife is the major bread winner. It may be a real eye opener if she finds out that 70% of her income goes to the kids support, alimony, child care, etc. Again, do not agree to seperation. Ask the lawyer if this makes any difference in abandonment. In MI it doesn't. In some states it is very punitive.

The ray of hope is that once she starts to think about coming back to you, you will notice an almost 180 in her behaviour. Keep holdng on. Your doing very well.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

She basically asked or we kinda discussed a seperation today she wants it for a mortgage she has yet tgo actually say she wants this relationship to end I started a new thread to shorten. It up. I will do some reading before we sign anything and get another consult thanks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Well I posted this on my other thread too but for the first time since OM said NC he broke it he called my W yesterday. 13 min. Will contact OM spouse but what else to do with that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Kookla said:


> It took your wife 13 minutes to hang up the phone when the OM called her?


That would be the problem i am dealing with. The looks I get from her remind me so much moore of a teenager than a grown woman.


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