# Post Infidelity Disclosure



## DoneIn (Aug 1, 2017)

Can anyone recommend where I can find some really good advice on questions to ask during a disclosure? In my case, the problem is said to have been prostitute use for three years - korean massage parlor type prostitutes. Full service, no less. I want to have a good list and not miss anything important, if I can manage that. Thank you.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Having this moved to the CWI forum will likely get you more responses.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

He should disclose everything, holding back is lying by omission and he no longer has that option.

Given all that he has done follow up with a polygraph.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Moved to CWI.


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## OutofRetirement (Nov 27, 2017)

Give him a blank notebook and a couple of pens, set him down at a desk or kitchen table, and tell him to write down what he did, when it started, why, how much money, types of sex, ever not protected, if he ever had any disease as a result, how he covered it up, how he felt about you while this was going one, and any other info you want to know. Tell him to write it all down and you will be asking him to take a polygraph based on what he said.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

DoneIn said:


> Can anyone recommend where I can find some really good advice on questions to ask during a disclosure? In my case, the problem is said to have been prostitute use for three years - korean massage parlor type prostitutes. Full service, no less. I want to have a good list and not miss anything important, if I can manage that. Thank you.


He's been at this for 3 years and probably would have continued *indefinitely* had the **** not hit the fan. So you know he doesn't have an ounce of remorse. He's just ticked that he got caught, you spoiled his fun, and now he has to work his ASS off to get back in your good graces and everything he does is now being monitored.

For a completely remorseless serial cheater (which is exactly what he IS no matter how many crocodile tears he sheds), his *only *concern is avoiding divorce court and trying to do as much damage control as is humanly possible in order to shorten his 'prison' sentence at home. So there is NO motivation at all for him to spill his guts and admit to having done it 350 times if he can get away with admitting to 125 times. Why on earth would he hand you MORE nails for his coffin if he can get away with admitting to less? I'm just being honest, but the only way you'd ever get the whole truth is if you had solid evidence of it in your hand that he couldn't deny

You're not going to get the full, honest truth from a serial cheater. You have a better chance of shaking hands with Jesus than you do of getting 100% disclosure from him. I'm not being a smart-ass - I'm being *realistic*. 

In order to get closer to the truth, it's probably going to cost you a ton of money. You tell him he needs to disclose it ALL and he writes down the very minimum and claims it's the whole story. You subject him to a poly and surprise surprise - he's still lying.

You have him add to his 'disclosure' and he once again claims you have it all now - until you poly him again - and find out he lied yet again.

Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

You're going to need a LOT of expendable cash to keep paying for polys. 

It's unfortunate that waterboarding is illegal here in the States. That was my first recommendation for getting closer to the truth than any of the other suggestions ever could.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> You're going to need a LOT of expendable cash to keep paying for polys.


And future private investigators...


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## Machjo (Feb 2, 2018)

TAMAT said:


> He should disclose everything, holding back is lying by omission and he no longer has that option.
> 
> Given all that he has done follow up with a polygraph.


Polygraphs aren't that reliable and can worsen the situation if they give a false negative or positive.


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## Machjo (Feb 2, 2018)

DoneIn said:


> Can anyone recommend where I can find some really good advice on questions to ask during a disclosure? In my case, the problem is said to have been prostitute use for three years - korean massage parlor type prostitutes. Full service, no less. I want to have a good list and not miss anything important, if I can manage that. Thank you.


As a sex addict myself, I can say that recovery isn't easy. Don't let him fool you into thinking he can just will himself into recovery. I'm not saying that recovery isn't possible: I'm proof that it is. I am saying though that a sex addict is like an alcoholic: once an addict, always an addict, and recovery is a lifetime process. An alcoholic can have his last drink and never drink again, but he also must never drink again or he risks falling back into it. The same principle applies to a sex addict. He can quit, but he has to quit hard. No porn and maybe even no masturbation during the initial recovery period (and for some, even beyond that): it's about learning self-control. He may need 'training wheels' in the initial period. That can involve participating in Sex Addicts Anonymous, Sexaholics Anonymous, or another twelve-step group, seeing a professional therapist, replacing his smart phone with a feature phone if that's an option, otherwise he can install Screentime, Mobicip, or other apps that can limit his internet access. He may need to restrict his access to money in some way. He may need to adopt even more extreme measures too as was the case with me.

A person does not just decide one day to sleep around. Usually some underlying trauma lies beneath the surface. In other words, if you decide to preserve the marriage, then like it or not, he must be honest about the fact that it's compulsive and he needs major help, that he is prepared to get the help he needs, that he's prepared to recover however difficult it may be (and trust me, he will undergo major mood swings during the recovery process including depression for at least the first few months of recovery), and you have to be prepared to support him in his recovery.

If you are not prepared to go through that or if he isn't willing to do all he can to recover, then I'd say consider sexually and maybe even legally separating from him. If you need an emotional support network, you can consider COSA or some other group.

One thing I will say: if he tells you that he can just quit without help, don't believe him.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

DoneIn said:


> Can anyone recommend where I can find some really good advice on questions to ask during a disclosure? In my case, the problem is said to have been prostitute use for three years - korean massage parlor type prostitutes. Full service, no less. I want to have a good list and not miss anything important, if I can manage that. Thank you.


Why do you care?

Seriously, what is to be gained?

You know from what you posted in past threads generally about what he did. In past threads you indicated that you were through with him.

Are you trying to change him? Are you trying to educate him?

Do you want to humiliate him? Do you want to make him emotionally suffer? 

If there is a "legal reason" associated with untangling your and his finances, then get the advice of an attorney and a CPA as it is "legal/financial advice" you need.


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## DoneIn (Aug 1, 2017)

Machjo said:


> As a sex addict myself, I can say that recovery isn't easy. Don't let him fool you into thinking he can just will himself into recovery. I'm not saying that recovery isn't possible: I'm proof that it is. I am saying though that a sex addict is like an alcoholic: once an addict, always an addict, and recovery is a lifetime process. An alcoholic can have his last drink and never drink again, but he also must never drink again or he risks falling back into it. The same principle applies to a sex addict. He can quit, but he has to quit hard. No porn and maybe even no masturbation during the initial recovery period (and for some, even beyond that): it's about learning self-control. He may need 'training wheels' in the initial period. That can involve participating in Sex Addicts Anonymous, Sexaholics Anonymous, or another twelve-step group, seeing a professional therapist, replacing his smart phone with a feature phone if that's an option, otherwise he can install Screentime, Mobicip, or other apps that can limit his internet access. He may need to restrict his access to money in some way. He may need to adopt even more extreme measures too as was the case with me.
> 
> A person does not just decide one day to sleep around. Usually some underlying trauma lies beneath the surface. In other words, if you decide to preserve the marriage, then like it or not, he must be honest about the fact that it's compulsive and he needs major help, that he is prepared to get the help he needs, that he's prepared to recover however difficult it may be (and trust me, he will undergo major mood swings during the recovery process including depression for at least the first few months of recovery), and you have to be prepared to support him in his recovery.
> 
> ...




My gut wrenches at the thought of everything he was able to do, and to girls 40 years his junior (who knows maybe younger). He is 59. I would put NOTHING past him now. He tells me that, just like that, when he was found out he has not once wanted to visit a prostitute or watch porn. He told two different counselors that. I would have no idea if he's telling the truth. obviously I don't know the man. So, if you have input from your perspective, I value that. He went to a sex addiction therapist who said it was multi layered but not an addiction. At least that's what he told me she said. Who knows now, since I absolutely know he can cheat, lie and otherwise mislead my sense of reality. Who knows.


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## DoneIn (Aug 1, 2017)

Young at Heart said:


> Why do you care?
> 
> Seriously, what is to be gained?
> 
> ...



Counselor suggested we try to reconcile. I am in the bargaining stage of grief -- Please Lord there must be some way to reincarnate the person I thought I was with! Please??? This cannot REALLY be true and this cannot REALLY be happening.... 

Well, back from that brief trip to never never land. It IS true. It actually happened and it happened to ME! Now, I just don't know if there is hope to salvage this mess or I am better off moving on. I am attractive, fit, fun, men find me desirable, and I know there is a future for me beyond all this. I am fearful that I will find someone else and find that they, likewise, have a huge secret they carefully hide from me...until they don't.

My gut just wrenches. After a lifetime of reserving my marriage commitment for "the one", I finally,after 19 years, thought we had made it. I was ALL IN and it was such a comfort to feel that safe, that loved and accepted, by someone I would die together with. And now, the image is of young girls spreading their legs for him on seedy massage room tables. My hero. My gentleman. My love. Please excuse the raw footage here, but I hope someone else reads this and understands the heart soul and life damage you are doing to your partner. Is it worth it?


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## Machjo (Feb 2, 2018)

DoneIn said:


> My gut wrenches at the thought of everything he was able to do, and to girls 40 years his junior (who knows maybe younger). He is 59. I would put NOTHING past him now. He tells me that, just like that, when he was found out he has not once wanted to visit a prostitute or watch porn. He told two different counselors that. I would have no idea if he's telling the truth. obviously I don't know the man. So, if you have input from your perspective, I value that. He went to a sex addiction therapist who said it was multi layered but not an addiction. At least that's what he told me she said. Who knows now, since I absolutely know he can cheat, lie and otherwise mislead my sense of reality. Who knows.


I would recommend you contact COSA and participate in their groups. COSA consists of people like you whose spouses suffer compulsive sexual behaviour. Trust me, paying for sex isn't just a normal guy thing. To pay for sex reveals compulsion and a severe lack of self-control; so if he paid for it, then he can't deny that it's compulsive and so he needs help. At COSA, you might meet people whose partner has actively sought help to change himself for the better and others whose spouses deny there's a problem. Their experiences might help you to determine in which of these categories your husband falls.

As for the counselor denying he suffers sex addiction, ask what she means. Some might just use different terminology. For example, if she talks about him suffering sexually compulsive behaviour, that's just sex addiction by another name. I can't imagine though that she'd consider a man paying for sex as just a case of boys will be boys. If so, then you might want to switch to a male counselor in case the female counselor is simply exhibiting certain prejudices about what she considers 'normal' male sexual behaviour. As a man myself, I can say that paying for sex isn't 'normal' male sexual behaviour and reveals a need for serious help. Consider too that when it's compulsive, you can't trust his intelligence. He might know the risks of unprotected sex, but can you be sure that he won't take the risk when acting compulsively? Consider the definition of 'compulsive' and 'compulsion.'

Consider:

Studies suggest not only that substance and gambling addiction afflict prostituted persons, but that sex addiction itself might permeate the sex industry through not only clients but sellers too:
‘It is argued that legalized brothels or other "controlled" prostitution establishments "protect" women through enforceable condom policies. In one of CATW's studies, U.S. women in prostitution interviewed reported the following: 47% stated that men expected sex without a condom; 73% reported that men offered to pay more for sex without a condom; 45% of women said they were abused if they insisted that men use condoms. Some women said that certain establishments may have rules that men wear condoms but, in reality, men still try to have sex without them. One woman stated: "It's 'regulation' to wear a condom at the sauna, but negotiable between parties on the side. Most guys expected blow jobs without a condom (Raymond and Hughes: 2001)."’
10 Reasons for Not Legalizing Prostitution | Vancouver Rape Relief & Women's Shelter

According to Paul Gertler, Manisha Shah, and Stefano M. Bertozzi on page 24 of Risky Business: The Market for Unprotected Commercial Sex (2003):
‘We find that sex workers in Mexico are responding rationally to financial incentives. There is strong evidence that sex workers are willing to assume the risks associated with providing unprotected sex for a 23 percent higher price. This premium increased to 46 percent if the sex worker was considered very attractive, a clear indication of her bargaining power. However, clients who preferred condom use paid an 8 percent premium to use condoms and sex workers who did not want to use condoms had to reduce the price by 20 percent to compensate clients for taking the risk.’
http://manishashah.bol.ucla.edu/papers/shah_JPE.pdf

Both buyers and sellers who know the health and pregnancy risks of unprotected sex with anonymous partners in random hook-ups offer a premium or a discount to actively seek it or even rape for it. This suggests not ignorance but rather compulsive behaviour and thus an indicator of a possible behavioural addiction. From a mental-health perspective, the relationship between a buyer and a seller is less one between two ‘consenting’ adults and more one comparable to two heroin addicts getting together to share needles to drown the pain of their respective traumas. While two heroin addicts may ‘consent’ to sharing needles, a behavioural addiction coerces them into that ‘consent.’ Prostitution can serve as a gateway drug leading to escalation to ever more violent behaviour for both the buyer and the seller. I don’t see how two trauma survivors getting together to have anonymous emotionally-detached sex benefits either of them.

I'll be brutally honest with you here. To truly regain control of my sexual behaviour, I needed a year of complete sexual abstinence short of wet dreams to truly learn to not only control my sexual behaviour but also to identify its source and learn to live with my past. Your husband might not even know why he acts the way he does. For example, he might remember past emotional, physical, or sexual abuse as a child but has dismissed it as irrelevant to his present while still not understanding why he presently acts the way he does. In reality, even if he doesn't consciously realize it, his past trauma might be contributing to his present behaviour which he uses to numb his thoughts and emotions to avoid facing the truth. My acting out numbed me emotionally. When I stopped, I went through a year of severe depression and ugly soul searching as my emotions returned to their full senses. I was lucky in that I was single at the time, so I could go through this hell on my own and not burden anyone else with it. I refused to marry anyone until I got this under control for at least a year.

In your case it's different since he is presently with you. Whether you want to divorce him is your choice. But I will say that until he admits that he has a problem, that it's outside of his control, and that he will seek help for it, then I would advise at least sexual and maybe even legal separation from him. You don't need to file for divorce if you don't want to: but unless he's willing to seek help, you may need to at least communicate the seriousness of the situation to him. You could recommend Sex Addicts Anonymous or Sexaholics Anonymous to him for example, You could also offer your support if he decides to try different remedies, whether that involves switching to a feature phone, installing an app, or other measures too.

At the end of the day though, he has to acknowledge that he has a problem.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

DoneIn said:


> Counselor suggested we try to reconcile. I am in the bargaining stage of grief -- Please Lord there must be some way to reincarnate the person I thought I was with! Please??? This cannot REALLY be true and this cannot REALLY be happening....
> 
> Well, back from that brief trip to never never land. It IS true. It actually happened and it happened to ME! Now, I just don't know if there is hope to salvage this mess or I am better off moving on. I am attractive, fit, fun, men find me desirable, and I know there is a future for me beyond all this. I am fearful that I will find someone else and find that they, likewise, have a huge secret they carefully hide from me...until they don't.
> 
> My gut just wrenches. After a lifetime of reserving my marriage commitment for "the one", I finally,after 19 years, thought we had made it. I was ALL IN and it was such a comfort to feel that safe, that loved and accepted, by someone I would die together with. And now, the image is of young girls spreading their legs for him on seedy massage room tables. My hero. My gentleman. My love. Please excuse the raw footage here, but I hope someone else reads this and understands the heart soul and life damage you are doing to your partner. Is it worth it?


OK, sorry for my earlier response ad the last different thread of yours I had read indicated that you had made up your mind to leave him. Again, I apologize. 

If you are in therapy and the counselor suggested this, then ask the counselor to help you make sure everything that needs to be on the table gets discussed and revealed. 

I applaud you for trying the reconciliation route. Did he ever do the "John School" thing we talked about? If I were in your shoes, I would want to make sure he had the big picture of what he was doing and why people could find it horrible. 

Again, from my perspective, if you are into reconciliation the "why of his past actions" is far less important than the commitment to never do it again and to be absolutely open and honest with you going forward. Does it matter how many Asian massage parlors he went to or how many women he had sex with and the sordid details? Or is his commitment to reconciliation and his promise to allow you to know where he is at any time more important?

My perspective is to if in reconciliation mode move and focus on the future, but with clear boundaries as to what will destroy your ever trusting him again.

Good luck, I hope you find happiness.


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## DoneIn (Aug 1, 2017)

Young at Heart said:


> OK, sorry for my earlier response ad the last different thread of yours I had read indicated that you had made up your mind to leave him. Again, I apologize.
> 
> If you are in therapy and the counselor suggested this, then ask the counselor to help you make sure everything that needs to be on the table gets discussed and revealed.
> 
> ...


It feels to me as if I HAVE TO understand my past. I was so entirely misled and misunderstood what I had. Now, I want to understand the extent of my misunderstanding. I want to understand - at that vacation at this milemarker - at this memorable place in my life with you -- was it all a lie? WHO WERE YOU? What exactly was my life? It seems to me that reality, no matter how godawful that may be, is better than not knowing. My gut wrenches as I speak this. Do any of you shallow, self centered, selfish people who cheat, lie, use the good will of another and think nothing of dishonoring it - do any of you really care who pays for your f+++++g cheap thrills? The partner who respected and believed in you - that is who pays. You never did respect or believe in yourself, so though it may be uncomfortable to be found out, you already knew you were a cheat, a liar, a *****monger. We, the betrayed, we find out all at once and it feels like the world ended. Thanks for all of that - a fitting response to having someone who loves and believes in you. 

It has taken me so very long to wrap my head around this thing. Nine plus months and I still am not willing to move in any direction. It takes a long, long time to heal.


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## DoneIn (Aug 1, 2017)

Machjo said:


> I would recommend you contact COSA and participate in their groups. COSA consists of people like you whose spouses suffer compulsive sexual behaviour. Trust me, paying for sex isn't just a normal guy thing. To pay for sex reveals compulsion and a severe lack of self-control; so if he paid for it, then he can't deny that it's compulsive and so he needs help. At COSA, you might meet people whose partner has actively sought help to change himself for the better and others whose spouses deny there's a problem. Their experiences might help you to determine in which of these categories your husband falls.
> 
> As for the counselor denying he suffers sex addiction, ask what she means. Some might just use different terminology. For example, if she talks about him suffering sexually compulsive behaviour, that's just sex addiction by another name. I can't imagine though that she'd consider a man paying for sex as just a case of boys will be boys. If so, then you might want to switch to a male counselor in case the female counselor is simply exhibiting certain prejudices about what she considers 'normal' male sexual behaviour. As a man myself, I can say that paying for sex isn't 'normal' male sexual behaviour and reveals a need for serious help. Consider too that when it's compulsive, you can't trust his intelligence. He might know the risks of unprotected sex, but can you be sure that he won't take the risk when acting compulsively? Consider the definition of 'compulsive' and 'compulsion.'
> 
> ...


Thanks for your relevant and generous input. He acknowledges that he has a problem. He is now in a mens group. He says with what appears to be sincerity that since D Day he has had zero drive or desire to visit prostitutes or to use porn. He said, though who knows, that it was so brutally brought out into the open that he can no longer hide it to himself. I don't know if its true. How can I? I want the man I thought he was. I don't even know if that man is real. There is still much good we shared in our lives that had nothing to do with this and everything to do with caring about one another. Or, it felt like that. Can a person who is lying and cheating and using korean prostitutes really care about his at home partner? WTF I have no idea if that's even possible. Weigh in on this, if you can. Thanks.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

There will be no magic time frame that will pass that you will suddenly not think about this.

If you are ok with thinking about this daily for the remainder of your relationship with him, you have a chance to R.

If you are not ok with that, that is what will happen so act accordingly.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Machjo said:


> As a sex addict myself, I can say that recovery isn't easy. Don't let him fool you into thinking he can just will himself into recovery. I'm not saying that recovery isn't possible: I'm proof that it is. I am saying though that a sex addict is like an alcoholic: once an addict, always an addict, and recovery is a lifetime process. An alcoholic can have his last drink and never drink again, but he also must never drink again or he risks falling back into it. The same principle applies to a sex addict. He can quit, but he has to quit hard. No porn and maybe even no masturbation during the initial recovery period (and for some, even beyond that): it's about learning self-control. He may need 'training wheels' in the initial period. That can involve participating in Sex Addicts Anonymous, Sexaholics Anonymous, or another twelve-step group, seeing a professional therapist, replacing his smart phone with a feature phone if that's an option, otherwise he can install Screentime, Mobicip, or other apps that can limit his internet access. He may need to restrict his access to money in some way. He may need to adopt even more extreme measures too as was the case with me.
> 
> A person does not just decide one day to sleep around. Usually some underlying trauma lies beneath the surface. In other words, if you decide to preserve the marriage, then like it or not, he must be honest about the fact that it's compulsive and he needs major help, that he is prepared to get the help he needs, that he's prepared to recover however difficult it may be (and trust me, he will undergo major mood swings during the recovery process including depression for at least the first few months of recovery), and you have to be prepared to support him in his recovery.
> 
> ...


I didn't realize we have a _*professional*_ CSAT in the house who can 'diagnose' a complete stranger - via the internet - as a 'sex addict.' Apparently, said stranger is the ripe old age of 59 and his late onset of supposed 'sex addiction' didn't appear until 3 years ago when he was 56. 

Are we to assume the OPs spouse was a model husband until he turned 56 and he just woke up one morning to find out he'd been bitten by the 'sex addict' bug? Is that the nonsense we're supposed to believe? That seems to be the way it goes for most cheaters - they have their fun until they're caught then they suddenly cry about having an 'addiction.' 

It's *this* type of nonsense armchair 'diagnosing' - on a freakin' message board, no less - that a BS is going to jump ALL over on because they'd much rather believe some 'disorder' _made_ their cheater do what he did rather than face the truth that he did it because he WANTED to and because he could. And it's this type of nonsense 'get out of jail free' card that allows a cheater to go out and fly his freak flag for as much and as long as he likes - until he's caught. Then, he can just use the phony 'addict' excuse to explain it all away and get himself off the hook. 

I find it very odd that no one ever jumps to this ridiculous 'sex addict' conclusion whenever we have a BH posting here about his serial cheating wife. Usually, everyone just says she's a POS and deserves to be kicked to the curb. But male serial cheaters are suddenly 'sex addicts.' Jesus.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Reading yours posts, your plight, your betrayal...
You were the good girl, the good lady, the good wife.

To get his dirty fix, to get his dirty dong dipped, he sought your reflection.
Not the exact image, but the negative exposure.

The Dark Image. The negative kept in the dark, in the drawer.

These women were everything that you were not.
And that is a good thing.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

DoneIn said:


> It feels to me as if I HAVE TO understand my past. I was so entirely misled and misunderstood what I had. Now, I want to understand the extent of my misunderstanding. I want to understand - at that vacation at this milemarker - at this memorable place in my life with you -- was it all a lie? WHO WERE YOU? What exactly was my life? It seems to me that reality, no matter how godawful that may be, is better than not knowing. My gut wrenches as I speak this. Do any of you shallow, self centered, selfish people who cheat, lie, use the good will of another and think nothing of dishonoring it - do any of you really care who pays for your f+++++g cheap thrills? The partner who respected and believed in you - that is who pays. You never did respect or believe in yourself, so though it may be uncomfortable to be found out, you already knew you were a cheat, a liar, a *****monger. We, the betrayed, we find out all at once and it feels like the world ended. Thanks for all of that - a fitting response to having someone who loves and believes in you.
> 
> It has taken me so very long to wrap my head around this thing. *Nine plus months and I still am not willing to move in any direction. It takes a long, long time to heal*.


There are 5 step and 7 step grieving process examples. You are grieving the loss of a long term relationship. Denial, Anger and Bargaining are the early steps. The above post sounds like a lot of anger. The point of grieving is not to dissect all of your emotions, but to figure out how to move on through the process to reach acceptance. 

Let me repeat that, you need to focus on moving forward toward acceptance and regaining your life. 



DoneIn said:


> Thanks for your relevant and generous input. He acknowledges that he has a problem. He is now in a mens group. He says with what appears to be sincerity that since D Day he has had zero drive or desire to visit prostitutes or to use porn. He said, though who knows, that it was so brutally brought out into the open that he can no longer hide it to himself. *I don't know if its true. How can I? I want the man I thought he was. I don't even know if that man is real. There is still much good we shared in our lives* that had nothing to do with this and everything to do with caring about one another. Or, it felt like that. Can a person who is lying and cheating and using korean prostitutes really care about his at home partner? WTF I have no idea if that's even possible. *Weigh in on this, if you can.* Thanks.


He is who he is. My recommendation is for you to move on. The above sounds a little like you are trying to fine ways in your own mind to do a grief stage bargain to get him back.

You really don't want him back. You want to move forward toward acceptance. There is nothing he could do to undue the harm he has done to you. 

I think that you would likely benefit from some grief counseling to help you work through anger, bargaining, avoid depression and reach acceptance.

Good luck. Folks really do want you to get your life back together.


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## Machjo (Feb 2, 2018)

...


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## DoneIn (Aug 1, 2017)

Young at Heart said:


> There are 5 step and 7 step grieving process examples. You are grieving the loss of a long term relationship. Denial, Anger and Bargaining are the early steps. The above post sounds like a lot of anger. The point of grieving is not to dissect all of your emotions, but to figure out how to move on through the process to reach acceptance.
> 
> Let me repeat that, you need to focus on moving forward toward acceptance and regaining your life.
> 
> ...


You are some sort of wizard. Thanks for helping me see all of that. I will get along to a grief counselor and head towards that new life. I too am concerned that there is nothing that can undo the harm that has been done. Its such a loss and its hard to accept, but there you have it.


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## DoneIn (Aug 1, 2017)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> I didn't realize we have a _*professional*_ CSAT in the house who can 'diagnose' a complete stranger - via the internet - as a 'sex addict.' Apparently, said stranger is the ripe old age of 59 and his late onset of supposed 'sex addiction' didn't appear until 3 years ago when he was 56.
> 
> Are we to assume the OPs spouse was a model husband until he turned 56 and he just woke up one morning to find out he'd been bitten by the 'sex addict' bug? Is that the nonsense we're supposed to believe? That seems to be the way it goes for most cheaters - they have their fun until they're caught then they suddenly cry about having an 'addiction.'
> 
> ...


Nobody becomes an addict without making a series of ****wit bad choices all along the way. They may become a mindless addict, subordinate to some spaceship that flew off with their conscience, but even if that's the case they made the choice to jump aboard now didn't they.


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## DoneIn (Aug 1, 2017)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> I didn't realize we have a _*professional*_ CSAT in the house who can 'diagnose' a complete stranger - via the internet - as a 'sex addict.' Apparently, said stranger is the ripe old age of 59 and his late onset of supposed 'sex addiction' didn't appear until 3 years ago when he was 56.
> 
> Are we to assume the OPs spouse was a model husband until he turned 56 and he just woke up one morning to find out he'd been bitten by the 'sex addict' bug? Is that the nonsense we're supposed to believe? That seems to be the way it goes for most cheaters - they have their fun until they're caught then they suddenly cry about having an 'addiction.'
> 
> ...


P.S. Last Wednesday the new (much better) counselor said his behaviours appeared to be addictive. He started porn at 10, lap dances at about 40, prostitutes at about 54...what a cesspool.


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## Rhubarb (Dec 1, 2017)

DoneIn said:


> Thanks for your relevant and generous input. He acknowledges that he has a problem. He is now in a mens group. He says with what appears to be sincerity that since D Day he has had zero drive or desire to visit prostitutes or to use porn. He said, though who knows, that it was so brutally brought out into the open that he can no longer hide it to himself. I don't know if its true. How can I? I want the man I thought he was. I don't even know if that man is real. There is still much good we shared in our lives that had nothing to do with this and everything to do with caring about one another. Or, it felt like that. Can a person who is lying and cheating and using korean prostitutes really care about his at home partner? WTF I have no idea if that's even possible. Weigh in on this, if you can. Thanks.


This is just my personal opinion. I don't buy into the notion that your partner can care about you in any significant way and at the same time back stab you. My ex could stare me straight in the eyes and tell me she wouldn't drink again. She could even tell me that she hadn't been drinking when she was stone drunk. She went to rehab twice and numerous times she had IVs for alcohol poisoning. Then on top of that she eventually cheated on me...... I get the fact that you spend time with a person and you don't want to believe that time is wasted. You want to think his shortcomings are something that can be patched over. But I have to say I'm so glad I got divorced and never looked back. My ex still goes on alcoholic binges and I'm now happily remarried.

So it's a risk. You are betting more years of your life that he can become the person you thought he was (note: he was never that person). But on the down side you could end up simply throwing away those years and end up in the same boat somewhere down the line.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> It's *this* type of nonsense armchair 'diagnosing' - on a freakin' message board, no less - that a BS is going to jump ALL over on because they'd much rather believe some 'disorder' _made_ their cheater do what he did rather than face the truth that he did it because he WANTED to and because he could. And it's this type of nonsense 'get out of jail free' card that allows a cheater to go out and fly his freak flag for as much and as long as he likes - until he's caught. Then, he can just use the phony 'addict' excuse to explain it all away and get himself off the hook.


You think sex addiction is phony and nonsense? It exists, but I would agree with you that it does not excuse the WS from their responsibilities.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

I may be way too late with this but...



DoneIn said:


> Can anyone recommend where I can find some really good advice on questions to ask during a disclosure? In my case, the problem is said to have been prostitute use for three years - korean massage parlor type prostitutes. Full service, no less. I want to have a good list and not miss anything important, if I can manage that. Thank you.


In my experience one of the most important questions is "what were you telling yourself that made this OK?" 

I also am slightly concerned you said something about him being in a "mens group". That could mean anything. Perhaps they talk about their careers. It needs to be a group that focuses on addiction. Like everyone else has said, this is not cured by "willpower".


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## DoneIn (Aug 1, 2017)

Laurentium said:


> I may be way too late with this but...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The men's group is a christian group, and your question is well worth asking. I will try that. I believe the answer will be "I was telling myself that you didn't care about me." Because that has been the answer all along. The facts didn't matter; what I was doing in huge and little ways didn't matter, his concept was that I didn't care about him. Or, maybe that is what he told himself because he didn't care about me - he cared about using prostitutes. I wouldn't know...


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## DoneIn (Aug 1, 2017)

Reading that back - why would me not caring about him make him do such things? I think its more likely he didn't care about anyone, except himself.


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## DoneIn (Aug 1, 2017)

Rhubarb said:


> This is just my personal opinion. I don't buy into the notion that your partner can care about you in any significant way and at the same time back stab you. My ex could stare me straight in the eyes and tell me she wouldn't drink again. She could even tell me that she hadn't been drinking when she was stone drunk. She went to rehab twice and numerous times she had IVs for alcohol poisoning. Then on top of that she eventually cheated on me...... I get the fact that you spend time with a person and you don't want to believe that time is wasted. You want to think his shortcomings are something that can be patched over. But I have to say I'm so glad I got divorced and never looked back. My ex still goes on alcoholic binges and I'm now happily remarried.
> 
> So it's a risk. You are betting more years of your life that he can become the person you thought he was (note: he was never that person). But on the down side you could end up simply throwing away those years and end up in the same boat somewhere down the line.


I agree...its a risk. Not one I want to take lightly, if I take it at all. So, I am in no shape to start a new relationship, and I am not doing anything fast. My old relationship is DEAD he killed it DEAD it won't come back. So I have to figure out if there is anything on which to build a new relationship. We had a lot of shared interests and pleasures. That's not enough for me. I don't know who he will be after all his reckoning and soul searching. I know there is a HUGE ugly scar on our past, and not sure how it would serve either of us to try to work around that. time will tell.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

DoneIn said:


> Reading that back - why would me not caring about him make him do such things? I think its more likely he didn't care about anyone, except himself.


You're right - he may be _telling _himself you don't care about him, but that doesn't actually explain his behaviour or make it excusable. Supposing you wanted to work on this, that failure of logic in his thinking would need to be pointed out and looked at.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

DoneIn said:


> My gut wrenches at the thought of everything he was able to do, and to girls 40 years his junior (who knows maybe younger). He is 59. I would put NOTHING past him now. He tells me that, just like that, when he was found out he has not once wanted to visit a prostitute or watch porn. He told two different counselors that. I would have no idea if he's telling the truth. obviously I don't know the man. So, if you have input from your perspective, I value that. He went to a sex addiction therapist who said it was multi layered but not an addiction. At least that's what he told me she said. Who knows now, since I absolutely know he can cheat, lie and otherwise mislead my sense of reality. Who knows.


OP I've been in a long term marriage with a wife that has had many affairs.
Yes, you are correct you do not know this man.
The truth....no matter what you do. No matter how hard you try. You will never know this man. 
You never did. I tried reconciliation 4 times. Many MCs and ICs.
I'm sorry but I'd suggest you do what I finally had the guts to do and file for divorce and move on.
End your chaotic maelstrom of personal hell. Bring order to your life. 
Let your future guide your present. Do not harbor resentment or anger and sooner than you know you will look back and say "Why didn't I do this a long time ago?"
But you know that already....don't you?


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> *You're not going to get the full, honest truth from a serial cheater. * You have a better chance of shaking hands with Jesus than you do of getting 100% disclosure from him. I'm not being a smart-ass - I'm being *realistic*.


QFT.

Remorseful or not. Begging for mercy or not. SC will minimize and spin the truth to paint a softer landing.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

For me, all the therapy in the world won't ever change the horrific fact that he endangered your life over and over again with his behavior. If you hadn't found out, you could have died from any number of STD's that lay undiagnosed. The sheer number of cervical cancer deaths these days from a more virulent HPV is staggering.

I would leave a man who did this to me. I would force myself to leave him. The heart wants what it wants, but sometimes the brain just has to prevail.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

OP, I'm happily divorced from a man I found out way too late was a serial cheater. I always say "way too late", but honestly, that's something you can't really ever find out soon enough. If you learned it a six years or even six months into the relationship, it would still feel like that knowledge came way too late. 

Having said that, you know that your old relationship with him is dead. You said as much yourself. So, let me ask this question: Is this man, as you know him to be right now, someone you'd want to marry? 

Is building a relationship with a known serial cheater something you'd willingly do if you met him right now? Because to be honest, that's what you'd be doing. You'd be trying to build a brand new relationship with someone you don't really know and have never really known. In fact, just about the only concrete, real, honest information you'd have about who he is as a person, is that he's a serial cheater. He cheats in bad times, _and in good_. He cheats when he's unhappy, _and also when he's happy_. He cheats when his needs aren't being met, _and when they are_. He cheats because he wants to, and he can. 

Is such a man worth your life?


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

DoneIn said:


> P.S. Last Wednesday the new (much better) counselor said his behaviours appeared to be addictive. He started porn at 10, lap dances at about 40, prostitutes at about 54...what a cesspool.


You need your own personal counselor. No, not even if the one you are with offers. Sorry, the why is important because if you stay you need to know the triggers. Also, the "why" helps YOU to know if staying is good for YOU. I do not know this counselor, but it sounds like you are getting little help, but he is getting slowly absolved.


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## DoneIn (Aug 1, 2017)

Thanks to all who replied. I am piecing my life back together, slow but sure. This is the worse of the worse things that ever happened to me and it distorted my sanity...for a while. Losing your understanding of your past, your present, and your future, all at once - that's pretty darn powerful stuff. Losing your best friend, who is murdered by your best friend, that's pretty powerful stuff, too. Its been one helluva ride. Thanks for all the very worthy comments and support. I have been cautioned and counseled to do nothing knee jerk, and I have tried to remember that. As I am settling down about everything, removing emotion from reality to the best of my ability, I am slowly seeing a path forward. Logically its clear I don't know this side of this man. The other side I did know was far from perfect, but he was loyal and kind and hard working - we shared a lot of friends, interests, hobbies, and affection. Now that the other side is added to it I cannot get a clear picture at all. The two sides don't fit together. Very destabilizing. Over time I hope to see a clearer picture. What I believe I will see is a sad, damaged, unhappy person who did his best for a LONG time to hold up a front he thought I would find acceptable. He held onto me as a way of feeling acceptable, himself. I was his connection to a real life, and his other side thriving in dark, ugly, sick places. Its slowly coming clear. Thanks for all your help.


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## DoneIn (Aug 1, 2017)

Laurentium said:


> I may be way too late with this but...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

DoneIn said:


> Losing your understanding of your *past, your present, and your future,* all at once - that's pretty darn powerful stuff.


The betrayal of infidelity can do this to you like nothing else. Years of "give your life for" Trust, shattered in an instant. Lived it firsthand years ago and still hard to believe that someone I trusted for 30 years would so calculatedly plan to deceive.

DoneIn are you questioning yourself *if anything was ever for real* with your H?


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

DoneIn said:


> Laurentium said:
> 
> 
> > In my experience one of the most important questions is "what were you telling yourself that made this OK?"
> ...


It's not really an answer, is it? It sounds like a reflex response. 
I agree, he can't or won't dig down. That's where working with a counsellor might help him.

None of this says that you should stay. That has to be your decision. 

But it sounded like you already had an idea about the answer:



DoneIn said:


> I believe the answer will be "I was telling myself that you didn't care about me." Because that has been the answer all along.


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## [email protected] (Mar 1, 2018)

People's expectations seem unrealistic given the data. Depending on the study, I have seen statistics as high as 70% of women and men have affairs during marriage. The lowest I have seen recently is well over 1/3. 

Part of the problem in a survey is getting people to tell the truth. But if anything, the latter number is an underestimate for the obvious reason people don't want to admit it. 

This isn't to excuse it or minimize how someone feels. But if you go into a marriage knowing how high the chances are both for infidelity and divorce then we aren't so shattered by unrealistic expectations. 

I don't understand the point of wanting to know every little detail. It seems like unnecessary wallowing in loathing and self-pity. Plus a little sadistic satisfaction in making your partner squirm over what they did. 

They will have enjoyed both the sex and the feeling of mutual attraction. Now consider that your spouse and you love each other. You each love the children and vice-versa. You love your mother, father, sisters and brothers, etc. and nobody gets all bent out of shape about the fact you love all these people at the same time. Nobody wallows in depression over it or demands detailed explanations. 

And in point of fact there are plural marriages. So it just shouldn't be hard to accept a person can develop feelings for someone else. 

That doesn't mean you have to accept your marriage partner having affairs, meaning to let them go ahead without consequence. What it does mean is adjusting your expectations from "this will never happen to me" to a rough 50-50 proposition, and preparing in advance for it. When you think about trading this model in for a zippy new ride, consider that again you aren't looking at any kind of guarantee the new person won't screw up either.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Why did he tell himself you didn't care? Because that's the excuse cheaters always use. That way they can do what they want and feel justified because -- they decided -- their spouse doesn't care. 

I ended a very long marriage. The disconnect between the image my ex-husband presented to me and what he was really capable of was huge. The person I thought I had known since we were teenagers didn't really exist. I forgave him on DD1 because he promised on everything he held sacred that there would never be a DD2. He lied. 

I don't recommend staying with a serial cheater.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> ...What it does mean is adjusting your expectations from "this will never happen to me" to a rough 50-50 proposition, and preparing in advance for it. When you think about trading this model in for a zippy new ride, consider that again you aren't looking at any kind of guarantee the new person won't screw up either.


I don't think you can prepare in advance. People don't expect or understand the very real physical effects of heartbreak. Even the most jaded among us can be blindsided by the pain.

For me, the worry about 'trading this model' for something else is irrelevant. I can be alone. If I were considering ending a relationship because of infidelity, I wouldn't 'need' a new person to worry about. Many people are like me, in my experience.


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## [email protected] (Mar 1, 2018)

alte Dame said:


> I don't think you can prepare in advance. People don't expect or understand the very real physical effects of heartbreak. Even the most jaded among us can be blindsided by the pain.


Rubbish. In plenty of cultures worldwide it is traditional that men of means have both a major wife and a minor wife, or a mistress/girlfriend. There are also staggering numbers of prostitutes with boyfriends or husbands in places like Thailand.

In addition to that you have cultures with millions of people living plural marriages, as in Muslim societies. 

I have girlfriends about every other year, up to five months at a time. I live with them. My wife meets them. So don't tell me you can't prepare. We talk it over in detail. We actually sign an agreement. It sets the exact terms. 

The fact YOU can't/won't prepare is no impediment those of us who can. 




> For me, the worry about 'trading this model' for something else is irrelevant. I can be alone. If I were considering ending a relationship because of infidelity, I wouldn't 'need' a new person to worry about. Many people are like me, in my experience.


Well sure you can abandon relationships. But the vast majority don't. So your case is the least relevant.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

[email protected] said:


> Rubbish. In plenty of cultures worldwide it is traditional that men of means have both a major wife and a minor wife, or a mistress/girlfriend. There are also staggering numbers of prostitutes with boyfriends or husbands in places like Thailand.
> 
> In addition to that you have cultures with millions of people living plural marriages, as in Muslim societies.
> 
> ...


I have been following DoneIN's posts for quite a while. While I agree with some of your concepts as to not focusing on all the details of her guy's cheating, I do think she does get to decide from her perspective if she wants to reconcile or not. The last I read is that she decided she didn't want to reconcile.

Once that decision is made, it is made. While I am very pro-marriage, it is her decision to make. Yes, divorce does not erase past history, past relationship good time, but it does protect against bad times, betrayal, etc.


You point out some interesting cultural perspectives about cultures with multiple wives/concubines, etc. However, from what I have read that doesn't seem to be the culture that DoneIn is comfortable in. I should really let her speak for herself.

Now as to your Polygamous relationship with specific discussions/agreements with your wife.............if it works for you and your wife and the other women she shares you with, great. However, that would not work for my wife nor me. TAM is also pretty pro-marriage (as am I) so you might expect to get a little grief over this. 

Good luck.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Rubbish. In plenty of cultures worldwide it is traditional that men of means have both a major wife and a minor wife, or a mistress/girlfriend. There are also staggering numbers of prostitutes with boyfriends or husbands in places like Thailand.
> 
> In addition to that you have cultures with millions of people living plural marriages, as in Muslim societies.
> 
> ...


LOL


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## DoneIn (Aug 1, 2017)

RWB said:


> The betrayal of infidelity can do this to you like nothing else. Years of "give your life for" Trust, shattered in an instant. Lived it firsthand years ago and still hard to believe that someone I trusted for 30 years would so calculatedly plan to deceive.
> 
> DoneIn are you questioning yourself *if anything was ever for real* with your H?


Yes. Did you move on or attempt reconciliation?


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## DoneIn (Aug 1, 2017)

[email protected] said:


> People's expectations seem unrealistic given the data. Depending on the study, I have seen statistics as high as 70% of women and men have affairs during marriage. The lowest I have seen recently is well over 1/3.
> 
> Part of the problem in a survey is getting people to tell the truth. But if anything, the latter number is an underestimate for the obvious reason people don't want to admit it.
> 
> ...


You seem to like math. Its a 100% certainty that the ex cheated on me. A new guy? My understanding its a 50/50 odds and much better because I have now studied how to identify loyal, committed men of fidelity and character, and I'll be looking for all of the smoking guns  So, there it is. I find life with a single partner to be absolutely exciting and fabulous. The ability to know one man, and know him intimately, and take good care of him and our relationship...that's all I need. I guess I am a simple person and i like it that way.


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## DoneIn (Aug 1, 2017)

Your wife may be bored with you and glad to have you out of the house...and maybe its the same in reverse. That's not what I am after....

I don't share my man. There's a lovely feeling of connectedness to that, for some of us. If he shares himself, he needs another relationship to do that in - he is not mine...he's like one of those loose dogs that runs to anybody with a handout. That's what it looks like to me, anyway.

I had a good dog for 16 years. He never made a mistake about whose home he belonged to and what was his to protect. A person should be at least as loyal, wouldn't you think?




alte Dame said:


> LOL


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## [email protected] (Mar 1, 2018)

DoneIn said:


> You seem to like math. Its a 100% certainty that the ex cheated on me. A new guy? My understanding its a 50/50 odds and much better because I have now studied how to identify loyal, committed men of fidelity and character, and I'll be looking for all of the smoking guns  So, there it is. I find life with a single partner to be absolutely exciting and fabulous. The ability to know one man, and know him intimately, and take good care of him and our relationship...that's all I need. I guess I am a simple person and i like it that way.


That's a very good point and thank you for making it.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

DoneIn said:


> Yes. Did you move on or attempt reconciliation?


DoneIn,

Short answer... Both.


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## DoneIn (Aug 1, 2017)

Counseling, moving to my own residence, glad to have continued dialogue with cheater so I can heal faster...not for the relationship - for me. Because we got to disclosure, I now understand the detachment that so unnerved me during our relationship. Read a book called Attached that helped me understand the dynamics. Have been praying for discernment and that book and sermons about "You will know them by their fruit..." and so on. I am going to keep looking for ways to discern people's character and learn to tap my intuition about others. If others have tips I sure would appreciate them.


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## DoneIn (Aug 1, 2017)

Big difference between mutual attraction and screwing prostitutes. Its a core value thing. I don't believe in degrading an already degraded and vulnerable woman...or man for that matter. And, I believe in loyalty and honesty. If someone wants to step out, they should let the other partner know about that. The other partner then has options of their own. Its still a heartbreak, but you can at least retain respect for someone who comes to you in advance and let's you know the change of their reality. Its the loss of respect, the underhandedness, the sick use of a female's privates for money/like a person is a disposable masturbation toy. Sorry, for me there are no words to how low all of that is. If you are buying sex, its because you aren't worth it anywhere else. The world is FULL of people who would accomodate if you had something to offer. Buying another human being is sick stuff.


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