# Going completely sexless... better than pity sex?



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Well, yes, I've done it. After many years of torture, I told my wife I'd rather go completely sexless than receiving pity sex... she didn't seem happy, but didn't object. I guess that tells you everything you need to know... 

My question is: has anybody here on TAM gone the same way?

*Please note that I'm not doing this to win my wife back, only for my own sanity.*


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I did that the last couple of years of my first marriage. It was easier than handling rejection all the time. It helped give me peace of mind and perspective, which made me realize that divorce really was my best option.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Married but Happy said:


> I did that the last couple of years of my first marriage. It was easier than handling rejection all the time. It helped give me peace of mind and perspective, which made me realize that divorce really was my best option.


thanks MbH... that's what I'm trying to understand too... it's impossible to think clearly when you are an emotional wreck...


----------



## peacefully (Nov 13, 2009)

Sex is a cornerstone of marriage- not just the physical act, but the connection. When we are disconnected/rejected from our spouse in that way it impacts our self worth. 
I think the boundary you set was brave and I also think that it is a good step in re-claiming your self worth.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

peacefully said:


> Sex is a cornerstone of marriage- not just the physical act, but the connection. When we are disconnected/rejected from our spouse in that way it impacts our self worth.
> I think the boundary you set was brave and I also think that it is a good step in re-claiming your self worth.


thanks for the kind words... I think my wife is a bit "confused" since she always thought that sex is very important to me... not that she cared enough to meet my needs...  She probably doesn't understand why would I do that... I tried to explain. Maybe she'll get it one day...


----------



## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

I did it years ago and it was a disaster. Unlike you, I never told her, I just quit initiating. After a couple of months, she asked about it and was pissed that I would "make such a decision" without consulting her. 

The marriage continued pretty much sexless for a while. My resentment towards her grew as did hers towards me. Our bonds, communication and empathy broke down followed by her emotional affair. It was not the sole issue in the marriage by a long shot but was a major contributor.

Now years later she understands just how and why it is important to me. She understands it is a need. Not a need that will kill me if not fulfilled but a need for me to be happy in the marriage. Rejection is very rare and she is enthusiastic about it. I in turn meet her emotional needs to listen and be empathetic in her stresses.

To deny your spouse's needs or to compromise your own will lead to nothing good. It will damage the relationship at a core level and fester. And all those little snips, spats and arguments about bull-**** like who was supposed to empty the dishwasher or let the dog out are just that. Bull-****! The reason for them lay underneath in resentment because needs are not being met in the marriage. We were an example of a text-book failure.


----------



## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

Yes, there is a point after years of trying when you just have to give it up. At a certain point it's just not worth it.

Some people are just intractable. That's just the way it is.

I had two previous relationships where I just decided to put away my spurs.


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening in absentia
I think sexless is better than a tiny amount of sex, or obvious pity sex. But - I think leaving is a much better choice.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> But - I think leaving is a much better choice.


I will be... not yet...


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Amplexor said:


> I did it years ago and it was a disaster. Unlike you, I never told her, I just quit initiating. After a couple of months, she asked about it and was pissed that I would "make such a decision" without consulting her.
> 
> The marriage continued pretty much sexless for a while. My resentment towards her grew as did hers towards me. Our bonds, communication and empathy broke down followed by her emotional affair. It was not the sole issue in the marriage by a long shot but was a major contributor.
> 
> ...


I told her in the face... I'm not playing games... I don't want to win her back. I'm just fed-up with it. There's nothing to save in our marriage.


----------



## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

In Absentia said:


> I don't want to win her back.


Then I'd say you're on the right track!


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> Well, yes, I've done it. After many years of torture, I told my wife I'd rather go completely sexless than receiving pity sex... she didn't seem happy, but didn't object. I guess that tells you everything you need to know...
> 
> My question is: has anybody here on TAM gone the same way?
> 
> *Please note that I'm not doing this to win my wife back, only for my own sanity.*


That's excellent. That's exactly what I think it looks like when we stop pretending everything is fine.

You're no longer pretending. You're no longer going to slap a smile on your face and cross you fingers.

"This is not working and I'm not going to pretend everything is fine. I'm done trying. My next step is packing up your stuff!"

Well done. Now stick to it. Unless she gets into therapy and starts working a treatment plan you want nothing to do with her.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I think it's good, as a stepping stone toward divorce.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> That's excellent. That's exactly what I think it looks like when we stop pretending everything is fine.
> 
> You're no longer pretending. You're no longer going to slap a smile on your face and cross you fingers.
> 
> ...


The ball is in her court... I'm not really expecting anything. I know she'll just accept it. Maybe she'll divorce me now. I have no idea, to be honest.

She won't go to therapy. "It doesn't work", apparently.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I think it's good, as a stepping stone toward divorce.


so be it...


----------



## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

But Amplexor I am confused.
You said it was a complete disaster.

BUT - your relationship now seems quite balanced and much better due to what you did.
(??)


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

My theory is that this dynamic is why such a high percentage of divorces are filed by women. Most men seem to be too weak willed to pull the trigger, and eventually the wives get tired of an unhappy situation and do it for him.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Have you considered reading up on female psych and sexuality?

A lot of times, they do not know what is going on with themselves.

Just a thought. I would be pissed too.


----------



## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

While you might be onto something WOM, I would suggest another reason the man waits her out until she pulls the trigger--Do you really want to be the guy who cuts his woman loose in her golden years because he was too horny to accept that we are "just getting older"?

The man looks like damaged goods and in full blazing MLC. Bring on the younger, prettier model and you are the biggest a**hole to walk the earth.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Have you considered reading up on female psych and sexuality?
> 
> A lot of times, they do not know what is going on with themselves.
> 
> Just a thought. I would be pissed too.


we had endless conversations about it. She needs therapy, but she doesn't want to go. So she takes SSRIs and has zero drive. She doesn't make an effort at all to meet my needs - I was only asking for twice a month. When I get "angry" (because having a discussion, apparently, it's me getting "angry") after a month, she shuts down and it's even worse. If I say nothing, we don't have sex. If I say something, I'm hounding her. It's a no-win situation for me. I don't want it any more.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> we had endless conversations about it. She needs therapy, but she doesn't want to go. So she takes SSRIs and has zero drive. She doesn't make an effort at all to meet my needs - I was only asking for twice a month. When I get "angry" (because having a discussion, apparently, it's me getting "angry") after a month, she shuts down and it's even worse. If I say nothing, we don't have sex. If I say something, I'm hounding her. It's a no-win situation for me. I don't want it any more.


Well, whatever the eventual outcome, you're on the right track. You have to peel away the hope to arrive at the necessary but insufficient condition of "this is how it is, it's unlikely to change much". You can then either become at peace with the reality that was always in front of you but which you wouldn't accept, or you can decide that this reality isn't for you. 

Either way, you wind up happier in the end.


----------



## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

Understand - all too well Absentia.

I had this "moment of clarity" the other day. (which may be difficult to clearly articulate)

But - it seems to me that with an LD situation (in a Male HD/ female LD) there are really only 2 possibilities for true and positive resolution.

I really believe that, the sex aside, men are looking for much more then the physical act. It has been written ad nasea here - but basically men want to feel loved, wanted, desired. 
That is why "pity" or "duty" sex - while providing the physical and the "sex"....is even WORSE.
It is putting an exclamation on the fact that you are NOT wanted nor desired. Loved? Maybe....as many spouses have tried to extol here...but loved not in a way a husband wants to feel.

So one solution...is that the couple find a way back to that place where the wife feels all that again. Likely it is something that BOTH need to examine for reasons...and BOTH need to work at. BUT...there is a confound here..... The WIFE MUST want to do that. I realize that thigs like reactive desire, etc... are possible if the husband works on himself...and maybe that is...but would think that the wife needs to want a return to those early days herself. 

The other solution, is that the wife truly UNDERSTAND what sex means to her husband. WHAT it means to the marriage. What it provides. HOW it affects him. HOW the lack of it affects the marriage.
The LD in the equation (male or female) really HAS to go outside themselves and truly understand that how it is for THEMSELVES....is DIFFERENT ....then how it feels for their spouse.
The LD may have a plethora of reasons that they are LD...and thus ....LD is who they are.
BUT...the second option here is a spouse decides that BECAUSE of the love, want, desire to have a great marriage and realtionship....sex is a needed and necessary and powerful way to show love and to positively be close to their spouse.

If NEITHER of the 2 above occur...AND she does NOT understand what sex means to her spouse....then she will ONLY see this as being "pressured"..."pushed"...."nagged"...
AND she will become resentful and further and farther away form love, want, desire for him. And I mean HIM as a PERSON.

It seems - that that above are the ONLY two paths..
Getting there....may take on a lot of forms. 
But what else IS there?
And if NEITHER is being done.....well.....

Thoughts??


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> we had endless conversations about it. She needs therapy, but she doesn't want to go. So she takes SSRIs and has zero drive. She doesn't make an effort at all to meet my needs - I was only asking for twice a month. When I get "angry" (because having a discussion, apparently, it's me getting "angry") after a month, she shuts down and it's even worse. If I say nothing, we don't have sex. If I say something, I'm hounding her. It's a no-win situation for me. I don't want it any more.


SSRI's are more than likely totally destroying her libido.


----------



## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> thanks MbH... that's what I'm trying to understand too... it's impossible to think clearly when you are an emotional wreck...


When you stop doing things that make you emotionally unhealthy or emotionally weakened it is easier to see clearly. I'd remove everything from your circle, and your ear that causes you to degrade or disrespect yourself.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> Have you considered reading up on female psych and sexuality?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I spent a decade in college studying psychology and know what's inside my wife's head - every last neuron. (All 39 of them )

Not only she does not know what's going on inside her head - making her a fairly easy target to manipulate on most aspects - but in general she does not care. Anything involving complex emotional processing is delegated to the mental shredder. Head. Sand. Bury.

I suspect you're right, she does not want to know what's going on. She thinks it's normal, so why spoil a good thing?

To answer the original question - yes. 

If you want to see proof look for the meaning of such sex the day after. If you're emotionally fulfilled - even a few grams more - then continue the infrequent sex. But if you wake up the next day and feel it was just like an ONS then skrew it. 

5% of gain is not worth 95% of effort. This isn't the moon shot.


----------



## 1812overture (Nov 25, 2013)

It's now six months since my wife and I last had sex, three months since I last tried. Summer vacations, my birthday, all the kids away -- none of it was enough to make her want to have sex. 

I suppose we're done, but I'll hold out a little bit of hope. We're in MC, so maybe a light bulb will go off in her head about how this aspect of our marriage is a disaster. The TV show 2 1/2 men is wrapping up, I guess, and in a commercial for the final episode (where Jon Cryer's character gets married) Ashton Kutcher's character says that when he's married he won't have sex anymore. The response is "not even on my birthday?" I can't help but wonder if my wife understood the parallel with our sex life.

So, IA, I guess I'm on my way to where you are -- we've talked in the past, but it goes nowhere. She wants me to do the dishes, so I do the dishes. I want to have a fulfilling sex life, she does nothing. 

I suppose at some point she'll mention we haven't had sex in a long time. I don't know what my response will be -- maybe something like "I don't really remember the last time we had sex, though it was in May. I do remember the last time I got rejected. For years there's been much more rejection than sex. Eliminating both of them works better for me."


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

1812overture said:


> I suppose at some point she'll mention we haven't had sex in a long time. I don't know what my response will be -- maybe something like "I don't really remember the last time we had sex, though it was in May. I do remember the last time I got rejected. For years there's been much more rejection than sex. Eliminating both of them works better for me."


I'll reiterate: eliminating my ex from my life worked best! Yes, it's usually a process to get to that point, but you're on the path.


----------



## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

nightmoves8 said:


> But Amplexor I am confused.
> You said it was a complete disaster.
> 
> BUT - your relationship now seems quite balanced and much better due to what you did.
> (??)


I first posted this in July 2012. Nothing has changes since. I finally found a way to make it clear. She finally understood.



Amplexor said:


> Any one that knows my story will recall that my wife and I were in a very bad place a few years back, hit bottom, damn near divorced but journeyed to a very long but successful recovery. We are very strong as a couple today, committed and loving.
> 
> However our sexual drives are still a mismatch. We deal with the problem better than we used to but had made little progress. I understand my wife is in menopause which has lowered her previously high-drive. With menopause has come an increase in weight lowering her self esteem. And her job is very stressful leaving her exhausted at the end of the day. I am very empathetic to her feelings on all three but there are two people in the marriage.
> 
> A few months ago we had "that talk" again and again it took a familiar path. Stress, weight, drive... With empathy and respect I told her I understood all those reasons but that quite frankly she has done nothing to try and address them and that I didn't see this ever improving much over where it was today. I told we were going to try a different path this time. "For the next 60 days, I want you to submit yourself to me when I want sexual intimacy." My wife is extremely strong willed and independent of soul. Her icie blues flashed for a moment then she took her stare off of me, thought about it and responded, "That's not an unreasonable request." Initially she found it a bit awkward ("knowing she had to") but we settled into a very good pattern. My wife does enjoy sex when we get started so she was not being "dutiful" during it. Keep in mind, I am in my mid 50s so I'm not swinging wood five times a day any more. 2 or 3 times a week is more than sufficient for me. It put us in a good rhythm that has continued on passed the initial period. She has also begun to work out regularly and watching her diet more closely. When we went though our R one of the things we did was rebuild the foundation of the relationship and two areas we became much more successful at then we had been previously were communication and empathy. Both had a strong part in helping us improve this area of the marriage.


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

1812overture said:


> It's now six months since my wife and I last had sex, three months since I last tried. Summer vacations, my birthday, all the kids away -- none of it was enough to make her want to have sex.
> 
> I suppose we're done, but I'll hold out a little bit of hope. We're in MC, so maybe a light bulb will go off in her head about how this aspect of our marriage is a disaster. The TV show 2 1/2 men is wrapping up, I guess, and in a commercial for the final episode (where Jon Cryer's character gets married) Ashton Kutcher's character says that when he's married he won't have sex anymore. The response is "not even on my birthday?" I can't help but wonder if my wife understood the parallel with our sex life.
> 
> ...


With her responding...See, I knew we'd be able to work it out, and we could make this work. I'm so glad I could finally make you happy.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Someone who has unilaterally decided to refuse sex to their married partner has decided that the marriage is over. Divorcing such a person is only a matter of formalizing that decision with the court. If someone isn't your husband or your wife, what the hell are they doing in your home? They aren't a guest, your child, or a piece of furniture. If they were a burglar you could just shoot them but they aren't that, either. They are cold, lifeless human forms that take what they need from their host and never leave, rather like vampires. Perhaps they used to have life but they no longer do.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

1812overture said:


> She wants me to do the dishes, so I do the dishes.


She does not even understand what the hell is happening in her own head.

She doesn't want you to do the damn dishes.

You should employ the 180.


----------



## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> Someone who has unilaterally decided to refuse sex to their married partner has decided that the marriage is over. Divorcing such a person is only a matter of formalizing that decision with the court. If someone isn't your husband or your wife, what the hell are they doing in your home? They aren't a guest, your child, or a piece of furniture. If they were a burglar you could just shoot them but they aren't that, either. They are cold, lifeless human forms that take what they need from their host and never leave, rather like vampires. Perhaps they used to have life but they no longer do.


Fun for them. For the worst one's when you complain about it, it stimulates their pleasure centers. They get excited knowing that you "can't" or "won't" do anything about it. They also may very well get their fill outside of the house, using you simply for financial and emotiononal support. Someone close by who makes themself feel "better" in comparison. I was reading in the medieval times, being cuckholded was such a great degradation that death or near death would be the usual response.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

treyvion said:


> Fun for them. For the worst one's when you complain about it, it stimulates their pleasure centers. They get excited knowing that you "can't" or "won't" do anything about it. They also may very well get their fill outside of the house, using you simply for financial and emotiononal support. Someone close by who makes themself feel "better" in comparison. I was reading in the medieval times, being cuckholded was such a great degradation that death or near death would be the usual response.


Not suicidal over here. If anything, being liberated from the nookie narcotic allows me to clearly see and is actually pretty empowering.


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> My theory is that this dynamic is why such a high percentage of divorces are filed by women. Most men seem to be too weak willed to pull the trigger, and eventually the wives get tired of an unhappy situation and do it for him.


I think it's because most men know going into divorce that they stand a good chance of getting royally hosed by our stellar judicial system, especially when children are in the mix.


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

In Absentia, I'm confused about something in your initial post. You mentioned that when you told your wife of this decision, she was not happy about it. Can you explain this a little more? I'd think that if she was as uncomfortable with sex as it sounds that she'd be happy and relieved at this decision. Or is she just unhappy that she realizes that divorce is imminent?


----------



## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> Not suicidal over here. If anything, being liberated from the nookie narcotic allows me to clearly see and is actually pretty empowering.


The men in that day wouldn't kill themselves, they'd kill the other guy.


----------



## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

1812overture said:


> It's now six months since my wife and I last had sex, three months since I last tried. Summer vacations, my birthday, all the kids away -- none of it was enough to make her want to have sex.
> 
> I suppose we're done, but I'll hold out a little bit of hope. We're in MC, so maybe a light bulb will go off in her head about how this aspect of our marriage is a disaster. The TV show 2 1/2 men is wrapping up, I guess, and in a commercial for the final episode (where Jon Cryer's character gets married) Ashton Kutcher's character says that when he's married he won't have sex anymore. The response is "not even on my birthday?" I can't help but wonder if my wife understood the parallel with our sex life.
> 
> ...


Same boat here - mine is too overwhelmed with trying to be SuperMom with two toddlers to even think about sex, even when I take the kids for a good part of the day. Her saying is that sleep is more important than sex. 

She will occasionally mention that we haven't had sex in a long time (year and a half since last time, once in three years, three times in four years), but before I can follow up with "Let's go", she immediately starts her litany of ailments (tired, headache, don't feel good, et al). Says she needs a couple of drinks to loosen up, but won't have a couple of drinks because she doesn't want to risk not feeling good the next day. 

I've given up trying - sex isn't important to her, and she thinks this is just a normal state of affairs given our ages (late 40's) with two little kids in the house. A couple of friends have offered to take the kids overnight so that we can get a night off (kids would love it) - no, can't do that, we don't want to impose on anyone.


----------



## 1812overture (Nov 25, 2013)

ChargingCharlie said:


> Same boat here - mine is too overwhelmed with trying to be SuperMom with two toddlers to even think about sex, even when I take the kids for a good part of the day. Her saying is that sleep is more important than sex.
> 
> She will occasionally mention that we haven't had sex in a long time


Sorry to hear that. My kids are no longer toddlers -- and I've found as they get older, time spent with them is more limited. Maybe while driving to a church or school event, shopping, etc. I relish those times -- and they'd occur even if I wasn't married to their mom. But it is still mind-boggling that a spouse can know it's a problem, yet just dismiss it.



> You should employ the 180.


 I've made steps toward that in the past. It really helped in the spring. I've assumed I slid back on "my end of the bargain" (the dishes, etc.) and that's why the sex stopped. But maybe it's because I stopped the 180. 

Unfortunately, by now, the 180 sort of means heading out the door.


----------



## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

ChargingCharlie said:


> I've given up trying - sex isn't important to her, and she thinks this is just a normal state of affairs given our ages (late 40's) with two little kids in the house. A couple of friends have offered to take the kids overnight so that we can get a night off (kids would love it) - no, can't do that, we don't want to impose on anyone.


What would even be the point of going through all that trouble. One night of duty sex and then back to the drought?

The decision between no sex and pity sex will be a very personal decision. You'll have to try it out and see what works for you.

Personally, I think no sex is better than pity sex. With pity sex, you're always wondering if tonight's the night, have you treated her special enough, should you be trying harder, etc, etc. You're thinking that if you work hard enough, you'll actually figure out the magical combination that unlocks her desire and she'll actually want to have sex. 

If there is no sex, then you're clearly stating there's a problem. Married people should have sex. Pity sex 1x/month allows her to think everything is fine. But if there's no sex at all, then she'll be forced to deal with the fact that the marriage is in serious trouble.

However, you need to face the realization that your marriage may never get better. If you're at this state, it's probably over. You may still be holding on to the idea that she'll find her desire and you'll get back to a normal sex life. That's not the case. Likely, either you live with this situation, you create these types of 'shocking' environments which temporarily increase her desire, or you move on.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> In Absentia, I'm confused about something in your initial post. You mentioned that when you told your wife of this decision, she was not happy about it. Can you explain this a little more? I'd think that if she was as uncomfortable with sex as it sounds that she'd be happy and relieved at this decision. Or is she just unhappy that she realizes that divorce is imminent?



Perhaps she uses sex for power or to control and feels she's losing that. Also some people feel better about themselves when their partner initiates and they reject. They get an ego boost rejecting their partner.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> In Absentia, I'm confused about something in your initial post. You mentioned that when you told your wife of this decision, she was not happy about it. Can you explain this a little more? I'd think that if she was as uncomfortable with sex as it sounds that she'd be happy and relieved at this decision. Or is she just unhappy that she realizes that divorce is imminent?


I think she hates rejection... 

She is a bad place right now... she disappeared all day without telling me where she went...


----------



## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> I think she hates rejection...
> 
> She is a bad place right now... she disappeared all day without telling me where she went...


It might be a good idea to do some light snooping. This is one of those times when she may decide to do something to get revenge or to feel better about herself. I'm not saying it will happen for sure, but definitely keep your eyes open about what's going on with her. Look for unusual computer activity, check cell phone logs, watch for sudden appearance changes, etc.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Perhaps she uses sex for power or to control and feels she's losing that.



That's exactly what she thinks it is.

Take intimacy off the table for good and you're left acting as if you don't give a flying care about your partner. Act accordingly - if you can stomach it - and she may get the message a lot easier than if you take months with a 180...


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

wilson said:


> It might be a good idea to do some light snooping. This is one of those times when she may decide to do something to get revenge or to feel better about herself. I'm not saying it will happen for sure, but definitely keep your eyes open about what's going on with her. Look for unusual computer activity, check cell phone logs, watch for sudden appearance changes, etc.


I agree. She is displaying some red flag cheating behavior.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

john117 said:


> That's exactly what she thinks it is.
> 
> Take intimacy off the table for good and you're left acting as if you don't give a flying care about your partner. Act accordingly - if you can stomach it - and she may get the message a lot easier than if you take months with a 180...


I agree. And the key here is to act accordingly. I don't do dishes or give back rubs to friends or acquaintances or employees. Most people I treat with a certain detached indifference, giving only as much as I get from them; and I have no problem saying "no" to most requests. Most men are going to cave in that scenario though.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

For extra fun turn her down on the rate occasion she initiates. But not every time - Pavlov etc


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> SSRI's are more than likely totally destroying her libido.


SSRI's also, in my opinion, increase the chances of an affair.

Illicit or dangerous behavior becomes the catalyst that wakes her up "down" there.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

wilson said:


> It might be a good idea to do some light snooping. This is one of those times when she may decide to do something to get revenge or to feel better about herself. I'm not saying it will happen for sure, but definitely keep your eyes open about what's going on with her. Look for unusual computer activity, check cell phone logs, watch for sudden appearance changes, etc.


nah, she went to see her friend (female) and colleague from work... they went for a drive to a nearby town. I've snooped... there's absolutely nothing. She wouldn't do that. She is not that kind of person and she has no sex drive.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

well, it's definitely sexless marriage for me for the time being... we had a chat last night and she said we are sexually incompatible... she can't give me the frequency I want (not even once a month), so that's it.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> Or is she just unhappy that she realizes that divorce is imminent?


This... being rather selfish, she worries about how she will cope on her own...

I'm not a cruel man. I care about her. Also, I don't want to disadvantage my kids by leaving - they would be the ones to suffer most. So, I told her I was staying. I don't care what people say about this decision. I'm not leaving my kids, especially with a mentally unstable woman...


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Amplexor said:


> I did it years ago and it was a disaster. Unlike you, I never told her, I just quit initiating. After a couple of months, she asked about it and was pissed that I would "make such a decision" without consulting her.
> 
> The marriage continued pretty much sexless for a while. My resentment towards her grew as did hers towards me. Our bonds, communication and empathy broke down followed by her emotional affair. It was not the sole issue in the marriage by a long shot but was a major contributor.
> 
> Now years later she understands just how and why it is important to me. She understands it is a need. Not a need that will kill me if not fulfilled but a need for me to be happy in the marriage. Rejection is very rare and she is enthusiastic about it. I in turn meet her emotional needs to listen and be empathetic in her stresses.


Amp, that doesn't sound like a disaster at all. Clearly it worked, even though it might have been rough going for a while. But you sometimes have to hit rock bottom in order to start clawing your way back up.

I'm going to be honest - I've been on the verge of doing the exact thing you did, but I've been too afraid that my wife would go in the opposite direction and only feel that I don't care anymore, and that'd be the end of that.

But it appears that what you did worked in the end, which is great!


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> This... being rather selfish, she worries about how she will cope on her own...
> 
> I'm not a cruel man. I care about her. Also, I don't want to disadvantage my kids by leaving - they would be the ones to suffer most. So, I told her I was staying. I don't care what people say about this decision. I'm not leaving my kids, especially with a mentally unstable woman...


You're kidding yourself man. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but you are not that strong. None of us are. I give you six months max being able to stick it out.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> You're kidding yourself man. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but you are not that strong. None of us are. I give you six months max being able to stick it out.


If I'm not able to stick it out, then it will be divorce...


----------



## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> This... being rather selfish, she worries about how she will cope on her own...
> 
> I'm not a cruel man. I care about her. Also, I don't want to disadvantage my kids by leaving - they would be the ones to suffer most. So, I told her I was staying. I don't care what people say about this decision. I'm not leaving my kids, especially with a mentally unstable woman...


:iagree:

The above is spot on. There are many of us on here who are in sexless marriages but stay for the children....both for their own stability etc but also because for many of us the joy and love we get from our children is the only joy and love we get.

9/10 the reason men clam up and distance themselves from their spouse is because they feel that their spouse isn't giving them what they need sexually...its all about compromise, meeting half way. Is wanting sex 3-4 times a month an unreasonable request? I don't think so.

My wife has never given me a bj....she simply refuses to...saying its disgusting yet she knows how much ot would mean to me if she did....even if she only did it occasionally and insisted I wore a condom. 
Had she met, or even tried to meet me half way our marriage would be in a far better place than it is now.
I have completely and utterly lost interest in her now. Even if she offered me a bare back bj I wouldn't be interested.

Yup...she has done that much damage.

Sadly there seem to more and more guys (and some girls) climbing into 'our' boat.

Is giving your husband a Bj THAT disgusting? Is denying him sex to the point he loses complete interest really worth fvcking up your marriage over?

Seemingly yes.


----------



## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

alexm said:


> Amp, that doesn't sound like a disaster at all. Clearly it worked, even though it might have been rough going for a while. But you sometimes have to hit rock bottom in order to start clawing your way back up.
> 
> I'm going to be honest - I've been on the verge of doing the exact thing you did, but I've been too afraid that my wife would go in the opposite direction and only feel that I don't care anymore, and that'd be the end of that.
> 
> But it appears that what you did worked in the end, which is great!


The story and process to years to take place. The point missed is that even after the marriage tanked, stabilized and recovered, we came back to dealing with the same core problem we started with. I knew, if we didn't address it we'd slip back into a ****-hole of a relationship. After all of that she didn't recognize sex and physical intimacy as a basic need for me to be happy in the marriage. 

I respect In Absentia's desire to protect his kids, all parents should give it all they've got for the children. Beyond that you either need to find a compromise you can both live with or leave. But you can't abdicate a core need and expect the relationship will be a healthy one. 

In Absentia's wife has moved from spouse to gatekeeper of the crotch. She wields the the power and she knows it. When a spouse does this it is generally done out of selfishness, resentment because their needs are not being met in the marriage or an outside force. (I am assuming there are not physical or serious mental issues involved) In our case it started with number two then advanced to number three.

In most cases I believe it is number two and most of us make the same mistakes in dealing with a sexless marriage.

Servitude: We wash, clean, vacuum in hopes of a doggy treat. If that's the way you are operating in your marriage you are behaving yourself, not not having passionate sex with your wife. You have no other powers but to perform.

Take your ball and go home: As In Absentia is doing, it doesn't solve a thing, because the problem is still there...... festering! Sooner or later that churning crap in his gut is going to release. Why, because at the core he is not happy. And guess what, she got what she wanted at your expense.

Mope and Whine: Yup, most women find that sexy.

I tried all of these, they all failed and in some cases made things worse. 

IA, you've stated you are not trying to win her back. Also you don't want to hurt your kids. Your path will lead to failure in both. If you want to fix this you and your wife have to have a mature, non emotional conversation about what each of you needs in the marriage. You need to listen to her and give her more than lip service. Show her through your actions you respect her and her needs. And you need to tell her, not ask, tell her what you need and expect.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Amplexor said:


> The story and process to years to take place. The point missed is that even after the marriage tanked, stabilized and recovered, we came back to dealing with the same core problem we started with. I knew, if we didn't address it we'd slip back into a ****-hole of a relationship. After all of that she didn't recognize sex and physical intimacy as a basic need for me to be happy in the marriage.
> 
> I respect In Absentia's desire to protect his kids, all parents should give it all they've got for the children. Beyond that you either need to find a compromise you can both live with or leave. But you can't abdicate a core need and expect the relationship will be a healthy one.
> 
> ...


I've done all you say and more... we've been through each single stage. Unfortunately, we have a *number 3* here... not a lot I can do about that, especially because she doesn't want to fix herself. Nothing will ever change. I'm doing this for my own sanity. She said I can have sex with other women. Maybe I will, at some point. At the moment, I'm digesting it all... surely not ready for another relationship right now.


----------



## neglected42 (Aug 11, 2014)

My sexless marriage is complicated, however, just a thought from a women's perspective. I keep hearing reference to dishes, vacuuming, dusting, etc, like these things are done with the expectation of sex. Do you not dust because your skin sloughs off and contributes to the dust, do you not do dishes because you or your offspring dirty them? These are things you would have to do whether you were living with a wife or not. My husband and I both contribute financially to the household, but whenever he did anything around the house, (vacuumed twice in twenty years), he felt I owed him sex. This attitude definitely contributed to my resentment.


----------



## 1812overture (Nov 25, 2013)

A fair observation and a good question. For me, I don't believe I ought to get sex in exchange for doing chores. I agree with you on that. 
It's more an issue of "her rules" versus "my rules." I believe everyone should be involved in cleaning the dishes after dinner. But she believes whomever cooks is exempt. (The way it works in our house is she cooks weeknights, I cook weekends.) If she cooks, I now jump right in with the kids to clean up, but on weekends I also do some of it. So, again, for me the issue is more that I do it "her way." In doing so, I don't get "my way" on any of the chores, and yet, I still don't have sex. 
Hopefully that clarifies my situation a bit. 
My resentment is that if I don't do things "her way" there is hell to pay. If I do, there's a quiet, sexless peace.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Tested2 said:


> So its you withholding sex? Over resentment?


if her husband is doing the dishes just to have sex with her, well she resents that... and she doesn't want to have sex with him because he is not "attractive" to her any more...


----------



## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

wilson said:


> What would even be the point of going through all that trouble. One night of duty sex and then back to the drought?
> 
> The decision between no sex and pity sex will be a very personal decision. You'll have to try it out and see what works for you.
> 
> ...


Yep, agree totally. To be honest, we don't have much of a marriage - it's more like a legally enforced cohabitation. I really don't like being around her all that much (she's a ball of stress around the kids, and is also very immature), and when the kids and I can get out and do fun things without her, so much the better. I just stick it out because of the kids (if I'm not living there, Lord knows what she'll say), and the disruption that it will cause. In addition, I have a lot of friends that are friends with her, and I don't want to ruin those relationships. 

My opinion, and this goes for the others on here in the same boat, is that the total lack of sex is a symptom showing that there's something wrong in the marriage. I also feel that regular sex can help alleviate at least some of the issues. 

Right now, I'm just going to stick it out - there's a lot of years until the kids are out of the house. I don't anticipate ever having sex with her again, and if I do feel the urge, I just take care of myself in the shower when she's not home thinking about the nut job ex-GF that wanted it all the time.


----------



## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> This... being rather selfish, she worries about how she will cope on her own...
> 
> I'm not a cruel man. I care about her. Also, I don't want to disadvantage my kids by leaving - they would be the ones to suffer most. So, I told her I was staying. I don't care what people say about this decision. I'm not leaving my kids, especially with a mentally unstable woman...


You're a good man. Leaving the kids with a spouse that's unstable is never good (my wife is very insecure and immature, and she gets stressed out when she has them by herself for a few hours, while I can take them for a week and do just fine).


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

ChargingCharlie said:


> You're a good man.



Look what it's done to me...


----------



## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> Look what it's done to me...


Hey, you're still a good man, Charlie Brown. Believe me, from someone in somewhat the same boat, you're doing the right thing.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

ChargingCharlie said:


> Hey, you're still a good man, Charlie Brown. Believe me, from someone in somewhat the same boat, you're doing the right thing.


Thanks... can you tell my wife? Actually, forget that!


----------



## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> Thanks... can you tell my wife? Actually, forget that!


That may be a problem, as we seem to be married to the same woman.


----------



## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> This... being rather selfish, she worries about how she will cope on her own...
> 
> I'm not a cruel man. I care about her. Also, I don't want to disadvantage my kids by leaving - they would be the ones to suffer most. So, I told her I was staying. I don't care what people say about this decision. I'm not leaving my kids, especially with a mentally unstable woman...


How old are your kids? I'm in a similar situation. I'm in a sexless marriage which I'm staying in for the kids' benefit and because I wouldn't want to be away from them. I'm just biding my time until they are grown up.

If you go this route, then you really have to be committed to the kids. Ideally, they shouldn't know about your unhappiness about this issue or else what's the point? If you and your wife are grumpy and fighting all the time, then are the kids better off? But if you can put on a good front, it might be worth it.

Also, plan as if you will eventually get divorced. After the kids are grown up, it may make sense to split up. If that happens, it will help if your wife already has a job and money in the bank. Make sure she's working as the kids get closer to moving out.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

wilson said:


> How old are your kids? I'm in a similar situation. I'm in a sexless marriage which I'm staying in for the kids' benefit and because I wouldn't want to be away from them. I'm just biding my time until they are grown up.
> 
> If you go this route, then you really have to be committed to the kids. Ideally, they shouldn't know about your unhappiness about this issue or else what's the point? If you and your wife are grumpy and fighting all the time, then are the kids better off? But if you can put on a good front, it might be worth it.
> 
> Also, plan as if you will eventually get divorced. After the kids are grown up, it may make sense to split up. If that happens, it will help if your wife already has a job and money in the bank. Make sure she's working as the kids get closer to moving out.


My youngest is 14... two at uni... so, some time to go, but not loads... 

We never fight and we get on... sex is the only problem...

My wife works... not full time, but almost... not sure about the "money in the bank" bit, though...


----------



## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> My theory is that this dynamic is why such a high percentage of divorces are filed by women. Most men seem to be too weak willed to pull the trigger, and eventually the wives get tired of an unhappy situation and do it for him.



I think this is nonsense. It is a stat that says very little.

In most jurisdictions and in most cases, the legal consequences and benefits of actually getting a legal divorce is not the same for men and women. If men were more likely to get custody orders and support by actually getting a divorce, more men would do so.


----------



## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

In my case, I made the same decision. 

For me pity sex and obligation sex are non-starters. As our sex life was dying I went through hell. I became insecure in just about every way. Not knowing when or if if sex will happen meant that I was constantly thinking about something that was making me miserable. It makes you needy and emotionally dependent on her moods and attitudes. 

After trying on multiple occasions over a long period of time to get her to understand, I gave up. For a number of reasons I decided to stay in the marriage. However, from that point forward, we would be platonic child rearing and financial partners. My sex life would no longer be her business.

It make a big difference in how I felt. But an improvement in a situation that was nonetheless sad. 

You can't do it with the intention of changing her. In fact, I think to truly rid yourself of the issue, you need to be prepared to reject her advances when and if that ever happens. If it prompts a meaningful discussion then you can reassess but that can't be your goal.


----------



## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

Lionelhutz said:


> I think this is nonsense. It is a stat that says very little.
> 
> In most jurisdictions and in most cases, the legal consequences and benefits of actually getting a legal divorce is not the same for men and women. If men were more likely to get custody orders and support by actually getting a divorce, more men would do so.


:iagree: The courts usually default to the woman when children are involved (unless she's obviously unfit), plus the man is then required to pay a chunk of child support and in some cases alimony. I'll speak for myself that this is one reason that I stick it out - another is that I don't want to parent part-time as I don't think my wife is capable of handling them most of the time


----------



## neglected42 (Aug 11, 2014)

Thank-you In Absentia, you understand. I am not withholding sex on purpose out of resentment. This is not a revenge and spite issue. Sex, (especially for a women) is about vulnerability, and trust. If a women feels taken advantage of, used, or lacking a basic connection with their husband, the thought of sex is unpleasant. If the husband is particularly neglectful, cruel, or selfish these thoughts can go from unpleasant to repulsive. 

Sex is not just a physical act for many people, it is an emotional one, especially if they are LD to start with. The emotional connection is absolutely essential for me. If my husband is only doing chores for sex, not because he is just obligated to clean up after himself out of decency and respect for others in the house, he is not respecting me or anyone else under that roof. This builds resentment, which degrades the emotional connection between us. 

How is your emotional connection with your wife? Does she come to you for affection? Are you the first one she talks to about exciting things? Troublesome things? Are you her rock? Can she rely on you when the going gets tough? Do you always have her back? Do her needs come above your own at least some of the time?

If my husband behaved in a way that made the above things true, I would have no problem in the bedroom. Even if I was naturally LD, (which I do not know.....could just be a situational thing) I am sure I could get in the proper mind set enough for a satisfying sexual relationship for both of us.


----------



## neglected42 (Aug 11, 2014)

My husband was a selfish. neglectful alcoholic, who abandoned me nightly to go drinking with his buddies. He left me with all the responsibilities of four kids even when sick. Booze was his only priority. My needs were never met, need for sleep, reprieve from exhaustion, rest when ill. I continued to satisfy HIS needs until the act itself caused me anxiety attacks. Trust me, his needs were the only ones getting met!


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

neglected42 said:


> How is your emotional connection with your wife? Does she come to you for affection?


Lousy and no, both her choice.




> Are you the first one she talks to about exciting things? Troublesome things? Are you her rock? Can she rely on you when the going gets tough? Do you always have her back? Do her needs come above your own at least some of the time?



I am all that and many more. For all the good it has done me....


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Tested2 said:


> Sex is it ONLY problem? Doubt that.


you are right... she is... good post, nevertheless...


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

neglected42 said:


> Thank-you In Absentia, you understand. I am not withholding sex on purpose out of resentment. This is not a revenge and spite issue. Sex, (especially for a women) is about vulnerability, and trust. If a women feels taken advantage of, used, or lacking a basic connection with their husband, the thought of sex is unpleasant. If the husband is particularly neglectful, cruel, or selfish these thoughts can go from unpleasant to repulsive.
> 
> Sex is not just a physical act for many people, it is an emotional one, especially if they are LD to start with. The emotional connection is absolutely essential for me. If my husband is only doing chores for sex, not because he is just obligated to clean up after himself out of decency and respect for others in the house, he is not respecting me or anyone else under that roof. This builds resentment, which degrades the emotional connection between us.
> 
> ...


well, I think I was at the beginning... but then she asked me to do the dishes... no, only joking! 

We were like that for the first few years, but then she started having mental problems and, I'm ashamed to say, I didn't understand it. Also because she wouldn't open up and she behaved normally. I can see what happened now and I can see that she was expecting a different behaviour from me, but I can't read minds. I asked many times... it's all rather sad, because a bit of communication would have solved many issues... but without it, they just festered and now we are where we are... I've done my best... but it wasn't enough.


----------



## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

neglected42 said:


> My husband was a selfish. neglectful alcoholic, who abandoned me nightly to go drinking with his buddies. He left me with all the responsibilities of four kids even when sick. Booze was his only priority. My needs were never met, need for sleep, reprieve from exhaustion, rest when ill. I continued to satisfy HIS needs until the act itself caused me anxiety attacks. Trust me, his needs were the only ones getting met!


He was into himself.


----------



## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Also, women lose attraction to men if they are perceive as weak. Studies have shown that working women view sard as weak men. They tend to have an affair with men who they perceive as equal as them or better. For the most part, women who are the bread winner look down on their husbands. 

Studies show that men who cry in front of their wives, the wives lose attraction. This research is done by a woman psychologist. Women are attracted to strong men, emotional and physically. A man with a V like body is highly attractive for women. 

Women aren't kidding when they say confidence is one of the main traits they find sexy about men.


----------



## neglected42 (Aug 11, 2014)

In Absentia......dishes joke - laughed!! Ok, I can see now where it started. I saw a show where a parent was discussing their child's depression and stated that it was like their child had cancer. They had to stand by helplessly while their child suffered, then she died. (She killed herself). Except no one empathizes with mental illness the same way they do cancer. You were not there for her when she needed you? The connection was lost? (I am not saying by fault of you, communication is key. I communicated how I was feeling to my husband over and over, he just did not care until it was too late) How do you now get that connection back?

I am lost in that same place. I am so disconnected from my husband I do not know how to get back. (Not even sure I should) It does seem, based on what I have read on TAM, that many women, and the odd man find themselves in a position where having sex with their spouse is such an unpleasant thought that they are willing to let their marriage fall apart because of it. (Sorry about how that sounds, but I could not think of how else to put it) Unlike me, some of these people's spouses are their best friends.....people they truly love.

Why??? It infuriates their spouses, and causes them to lose all compassion and empathy. They feel rejected, unloved, and mistreated.

There is something else going on here. It is not just a matter of a physical act. Pick any physical act - lets say waxing my husband's beloved truck - (I know where some of your minds are going to go with this....but I mean literally). Ok, now I am thinking that and I am having trouble being serious. Here I go...If waxing his truck for a half an hour twice a week made him a very happily married man. One who loved and cherished me. One who treated me so much better for doing it. One who appreciated me and who felt appreciated. Well, I would be waxing his truck!! Even when he pissed me off, even when he neglected me, even when he was being selfish. If he was a wonderful man, hell, I would wax his truck a little more just because it made him so darn happy. 

But sex is not the same. There is brain wiring, hormones, feelings, vulnerability. It is so much more complex. Spouse's get so enraged about it because they cannot understand why there is so much resistance to one little physical act, but it is not just a physical act. 

I understand that sex is a need for some people and not others. Emotional connection, trust, and love are also needs. These things must all go together for some people. Perhaps you need to work on the emotional connection. Perhaps that was broken. Maybe that is the piece of the puzzle.


----------



## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

For the most part. Females need to feel protected emotionally, and physically. They want a man to be protective of them. Evolution at work here. When a female is pregnant, she won't be able to fend off predators or other threats that easily. Also she wants to pass those traits onto their children. 

Sorry ladies, but your brains are hard wired to be good at mind games. That is why women will test men mentally as well. Of course this is common, and not the same for every case. 

And sex is mating. Sex was design to feel good and that is why we seek it. Sex is the number one activity that releases oxytocin and bonds us deeply with our mate for the reason of raising offspring. Over time that fades away and that is why couples need to do activities, or communicate to help keep those bonding hormones up. Men will have to do more work in a relationship to maintain it. Because for a female sex is a risk due to pregnancy.


----------



## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> thanks for the kind words... I think my wife is a bit "confused" since she always thought that sex is very important to me... not that she cared enough to meet my needs...  She probably doesn't understand why would I do that... I tried to explain. Maybe she'll get it one day...


Yup........ the day you let the door hit you in the a$$

55


----------



## neglected42 (Aug 11, 2014)

> So you married an alcoholic? Pretty sure he was OK when you married him..what made him change?


 Tested, I am sure you would love to hear that my refusal to satisfy my man had driven him to alcohol, but no such luck. I have been with him since I was seventeen. He is all I know. I was young and stupid, he was charming and loved to have a good time. He was a drinker then. We all were. The rest of us just grew up and took the responsibilities of work and family seriously.

True enough, evolution certainly has created differences in men and women when it comes to sex. The protection factor is big for women, as is the risk of pregnancy. It certainly has to have a large effect on the hard wiring of desire.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

In Absentia said:


> The ball is in her court... I'm not really expecting anything. I know she'll just accept it. Maybe she'll divorce me now. I have no idea, to be honest.
> 
> She won't go to therapy. "It doesn't work", apparently.


Clearly she is not attracted to you. Yet, she benefits from this relationship (as it is now) - stability, esteem, etc. Or she would be gone by now (especially not being attracted to you).

Even though she is not into sex, she does it (however badly) because she feels it will (or at least should) keep you around. For her, no sex will be threatening (and perhaps insulting).
Expect her to act out and become hostile as:

* She sees that no sex means you pulling back in general and her lifestyle and marriage is in jeapordy, and/or
* She loses control over you (you are able to have a fulfilling life without her).

And, therapy does not "work" like medical treatment. What she means is she is not interested in becoming a better wife. IOW, she does not value what you provide enough to do more for it. So, stay alert and don't let yourself be screwed over.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

ChargingCharlie said:


> :iagree: The courts usually default to the woman when children are involved (unless she's obviously unfit), plus the man is then required to pay a chunk of child support and in some cases alimony.


Really, this is how it works? Who says?

I went through a divorce recently, so I know first-hand. I got 50/50 custody because I set a clear expectation at the time of separation. My ex resented my strong relationship with our child and kept trying to undermine me. I still kept my 50/50 custody. It is simply the default in my state (and likely many others).

Now, what can happen is a parent (either parent) is not around the kids as much the other parent due to working long or irregular hours, or has not been around for some other reason. In that case you might ask for but not get equal custody. But, there is no way that is the "usual" situation. Also, you can avoid that by getting your business in order.

Also, just an FYI, child support does not originate from unequal custody. It originates from unequal custody and income disparity, such that you can have equal custody yet owe substantial support if there is a substantial income differential.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

In Absentia said:


> well, it's definitely sexless marriage for me for the time being... we had a chat last night and she said we are sexually incompatible... she can't give me the frequency I want (not even once a month), so that's it.


Let's be clear here. Any able-bodied woman can provide one good sexual experience a month. She chooses not to provide it to you.

Why would she say she cannot? Because she does not want to held accountable for this failure. She knows if she tells you the truth (that she has better things to do with her time), then she is extremely likely to have her own needs similarly disregarded. But, if she frames it as an inability, then you can be the a-hole who punishes her for something beyond her control.

My suggestion is that you hold firm. Match her effort and when she calls you out on treating her badly, make sure you tell her that since she has chosen not to meet your needs you are choosing to prioritize yourself.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

DTO said:


> Let's be clear here. Any able-bodied woman can provide one good sexual experience a month. She chooses not to provide it to you.
> 
> Why would she say she cannot? Because she does not want to held accountable for this failure. She knows if she tells you the truth (that she has better things to do with her time), then she is extremely likely to have her own needs similarly disregarded. But, if she frames it as an inability, then you can be the a-hole who punishes her for something beyond her control.
> 
> My suggestion is that you hold firm. Match her effort and when she calls you out on treating her badly, make sure you tell her that since she has chosen not to meet your needs you are choosing to prioritize yourself.


I'm afraid we are past it all that now... as I said in my first post, I'm not trying to win her back...

I'm not sure why it ended up like this. What I'm sure of is that she made me feel it was all my fault, when, in reality, I was only asking for a normal marriage, with a little sex. When she started having metal problems, she shut down even more, not communicating. I was in the dark and didn't understand the depth of her problems. She was behaving normally on a day to day basis.

When I asked for sex every two weeks, I encountered resistance, but no real explanations. Only excuses. She could have said: sorry, I'm having a bad time mentally. Please be patient. But she didn't. So, after a few times, I would get angry (as in saying hurtful things, or even a normal conversation was felt as an attack on her). Is that abnormal? I would ask what was wrong... she would say "nothing". 

The thing with my wife is that, the more she rejected me, the more frustrated I got. And the more frustrated I got, the less she wanted sex with me. I can't read minds. I asked for communication, but she said she wasn't like that... 

I would get pity sex eventually. And she enjoyed it a lot.

This carried on for a few years (we had MC - suggested by her - to no avail - she didn't want to talk about sex), when I finally snapped and packed my bags. Then we compromised, but it didn't work. She still felt under pressure. I guess she was in a real bad place regarding sex.

If I didn't ask, I wouldn't get it. If I asked, I wouldn't get it.

The other day she told me that all I cared was my right to have sex with her. That was one of the most hurtful things I ever heard from her. It wasn't like that at all. I wanted a little sex, once in a while, like all married couple do. Too much to ask? Obviously, yes. 

She can't handle conflict. She is inept at communicating. She takes everything personally. She says I'm nasty and hateful. Yes, after 15 years of this, anybody would grow resentful, especially when your partner decides it's not worth going to therapy to save your marriage... 

I have my faults and I could have handled it better, but if you don't know what's going on in your spouse's head, you are bound to fail...

Sorry about the "book"... got it off my chest, now...


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Tested2 said:


> Now let me dig deeper with you how much did you have sex with him during the initial years... did you satisfy his curiosity?
> 
> You may think he was fully satisfied but even what would be considered decent by some (monthly or twice a month) is not what he wanted....not that that drove him to drink foolishly but it could have been another factor.
> 
> ...


In the bolded part, you are putting blame on one gender and excusing the other.

Men should know that they cannot take their wives for granted or else there will be consequences, this is what "coasting" entails. A guy who forgets what attracted his wife in the first place and "coasts" because he feels entitled to sex because he is married is as wrong as the lady who takes her husband for granted because they have kids and he doesn't want to divorce.

Both are wrong.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Fozzy said:


> In Absentia, I'm confused about something in your initial post. You mentioned that when you told your wife of this decision, she was not happy about it. Can you explain this a little more? I'd think that if she was as uncomfortable with sex as it sounds that she'd be happy and relieved at this decision. Or is she just unhappy that she realizes that divorce is imminent?


You've hit the nail on the head. She would love to not have sex again, in the abstract. But in the real world, she knows the lack of sex is going to accompany a 180-style pullback.

Otherwise, if she could keep him attentive without sex, why would still she bother with any sex at all?


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

In Absentia said:


> I'm afraid we are past it all that now... as I said in my first post, I'm not trying to win her back...
> 
> I'm not sure why it ended up like this. What I'm sure of is that she made me feel it was all my fault, when, in reality, I was only asking for a normal marriage, with a little sex. When she started having metal problems, she shut down even more, not communicating. I was in the dark and didn't understand the depth of her problems. She was behaving normally on a day to day basis.
> 
> ...


You might not be past all that now. Sure the sex is done, but wait until she starts to feel the consequences of her actions (your pulling back from her). You will get some serious friction as she pays that price and blames you for her unhappiness.

Look, you need to understand that your wife is effed up, perhaps seriously so. Your wife's actions scream that you are beneath her, that she can step all over your wants/needs and should not have to endure consequences. Well-adjusted, socially adept people simply do not do that.

I'm not saying you should do anything differently. Refusing pity sex in favor of no sex is a very brave move that speaks of your strength and self-awareness. Just be aware that as you were the bad guy for fighting to keep the sex alive, you will still be the bad guy because the lack of sex is driving your decisions.

Bottom line: if your wife doesn't wake up and fix herself quick, keep an eye on her. She is on the verge of crossing the line from partner to adversary, depending on how pissed off she gets.


----------



## neglected42 (Aug 11, 2014)

Tested, trust me, my husband had no complaints for many, many years. As I said, I had a perfectly normal sex drive. Years of his selfish behavior, neglect, temper, cruelty, and lack of compassion is how we got here. (Most of this probably caused by his alcoholism)

I understand why I have an issue. I think it would be hard to find a women in my situation who would not. As I said, many people need an emotional connection to have sex. If they have sex when there is no emotional connection it becomes unpleasant. (And yes, they are probably having sex because their spouse, like you and so many others, feel entitled to it no matter how they are treating their significant other. So they comply when they don't want to). The sex is unpleasant because the lack of connection, the brain starts to change its wiring from sex = pleasurable to sex = unpleasant, eventually it can get to the point of sex = repulsive. Now there is a problem. Sex is negatively reinforced in the brain instead of positively reinforced. (Remember the psychology experiment with the child, stuffed bunny and loud noise. Putting all three together eventually caused a negative reaction to the stuffed bunny. Do you think you could undo that association by telling the child to undo it?)

I am well aware why sex is negatively reinforced in my brain. I am thinking that if people are honest with themselves, maybe they could find the point where sex may have become negatively reinforced in their partner. Perhaps with In Absentia it was when he lacked compassion with his wife's mental issues. Was she still trying to participate in sex with a man who she felt was compassionless, who did not have her back. If so, did that negative association start then??

How do you then undo the negative association? I have no idea. It is brain wiring. Not a simple thing. The answer to this I think may lie with Amplexor's wife. He told us his actions which caused the change. I would love to get into her head. She went from revulsion (sorry - his words) to a normal sex life and a good marriage. How did she do it?


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

DTO said:


> You might not be past all that now. Sure the sex is done, but wait until she starts to feel the consequences of her actions (your pulling back from her). You will get some serious friction as she pays that price and blames you for her unhappiness.
> 
> Look, you need to understand that your wife is effed up, perhaps seriously so. Your wife's actions scream that you are beneath her, that she can step all over your wants/needs and should not have to endure consequences. Well-adjusted, socially adept people simply do not do that.
> 
> ...



you might be right... she might be powerless over me, now, but she is not pissed off... on the contrary, she is happy because I'm still here, looking after the family which, in turns, makes her life easier.

We are not dealing with a "normal" human being here, I'm afraid. All she cares about is herself and, if she has to sacrifice her sexual life and marriage for her own gain and protection, so be it...

To stay here is my sole decision and I'm not prepared to discuss it, regardless of the negative impact it has on me. This is how I want it, at least for the moment.

I'm not interested in what she says or does. I'm done with it. It's very sad, but I'm not interested in a selfish woman who disregards her marriage and husband because is not prepared to fix herself. I've lost all my respect for her.


----------



## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Techmom, funny thing about the sperm comment you made. Their was a research done, and sperm releases more bonding hormones inside the female body. Maybe that is why condoms don't feel that great for women either. The sperm helps release more hormones and makes sex a more intimate experience.


----------



## 1812overture (Nov 25, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> What I'm sure of is that she made me feel it was all my fault, when, in reality, I was only asking for a normal marriage, with a little sex. after a few times, I would get angry (as in saying hurtful things, or even a normal conversation was felt as an attack on her). Is that abnormal? I would ask what was wrong... she would say "nothing".
> 
> The thing with my wife is that, the more she rejected me, the more frustrated I got.
> 
> ...


Your situation is NOT a mirror version of mine, but I've noted above the things that match. And I still have hope that we can find a solution.

You say your wife enjoys sex. I believe mine does, too. From how she acts during, and the things she says after. That's really all I've got to go on. 

But, now that you've told her, do you think it will remain an issue? If you hit a rough patch, and she says "look at that couple. They are still in love." will you respond - "I'll bet they have sex often." When there's a Viagra commercial on TV, will you make a comment? 

I feel as though I am steps away from the conversation you had, even if I may not make the same decision -- to stay until a time TBD in a sexless marriage. But I may make that decision.

If I stay, it will probably because I can't convince myself, or imagine ever verbalizing to my children, that a fulfilling sex life was more important than seeing them everyday. But, if my wife can't back down on demanding how I must be Dad to my boys, that will be a second reason to leave. And that will put it over the top.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

1812overture said:


> Your situation is NOT a mirror version of mine, but I've noted above the things that match. And I still have hope that we can find a solution.
> 
> You say your wife enjoys sex. I believe mine does, too. From how she acts during, and the things she says after. That's really all I've got to go on.
> 
> ...


why is it always "just" sex? It's not! With sex comes intimacy and connection... it's a way to bond. What's so difficult to understand about this? Why do I have to feel I'm a sex maniac for wanting sex once a month? I'm not asking much.


----------



## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

DTO said:


> Clearly she is not attracted to you. Yet, she benefits from this relationship (as it is now) - stability, esteem, etc. Or she would be gone by now (especially not being attracted to you).
> 
> Even though she is not into sex, she does it (however badly) because she feels it will (or at least should) keep you around. For her, no sex will be threatening (and perhaps insulting).
> Expect her to act out and become hostile as:
> ...


This is a bad situation. For an interim deal, the deal might not be a bad deal if the cash and emotional outlay are worth what you get out of it.

But if you know you are just being taken advantage of and literally get nothing out of it, you know what you have to do. Your not helping yourself holding onto it.


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Mr.Fisty said:


> Techmom, funny thing about the sperm comment you made. Their was a research done, and sperm releases more bonding hormones inside the female body. Maybe that is why condoms don't feel that great for women either. The sperm helps release more hormones and makes sex a more intimate experience.


I didn't make the sperm post, that was the post I quoted.


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

I think you are making the right decision. Sex is quite simply not worth that amount of mental anguish. Put your energy into understanding and controlling your own mental state. You must control how you perceive things-- not her or her reactions to you. Letting go of the pursuit of her is an essential step in gaining this control over yourself. Good luck.


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

treyvion said:


> This is a bad situation. For an interim deal, the deal might not be a bad deal if the cash and emotional outlay are worth what you get out of it.
> 
> But if you know you are just being taken advantage of and literally get nothing out of it, you know what you have to do. Your not helping yourself holding onto it.


Let me lay a truth on you. Most women have no clue what makes men happy. They talk a good game but they don't. They do not understand that a man needs his wife to have sex with him to know she loves him. That's the way it was 20,000 years ago...same now. 

You're wife simply does not care If you feel loved or not.


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

So what do you do?

Start loving yourself first, then your kids, then the dog, then her...


----------



## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> Let me lay a truth on you. Most women have no clue what makes men happy. They talk a good game but they don't. They do not understand that a man needs his wife to have sex with him to know she loves him. That's the way it was 20,000 years ago...same now.
> 
> You're wife simply does not care If you feel loved or not.


I said this in a previous marriage, and it did straighten up the sex life:

"If you don't, someone else will. I won't be in a sexless marriage".

I was going to leave the next day because no way I would stand for my wife starving me out.


----------



## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

treyvion said:


> I said this in a previous marriage, and it did straighten up the sex life:
> 
> "If you don't, someone else will. I won't be in a sexless marriage".
> 
> I was going to leave the next day because no way I would stand for my wife starving me out.


Some of them need to know you will do something about it! They get motivated and they do what they should be doing.


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Wives who tell their husbands they are perverts for wanting to have frequent sex are fools. Ignorant fools. And they don't need to be married or having kids.


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

It's all about how much you value yourself. 

I think it is admirable to draw a line and say, you know what, my time and energy is worth more to me than this. I am not going to give it away to you any more.

In Absentia-- you will feel good once you prove to yourself you don't need this.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> Let me lay a truth on you. Most women have no clue what makes men happy. They talk a good game but they don't. They do not understand that a man needs his wife to have sex with him to know she loves him. That's the way it was 20,000 years ago...same now.
> 
> *You're wife simply does not care If you feel loved or no*t.


I've already said this in OP's other threads but I'm gonna say it again because I'm sick and tired of the vilification going on here.

She doesn't care if he feels loved or not because SHE doesn't feel loved. 

InAbsentia admits he screwed up and essentially emotionally abandoned his wife when she first started feeling her anxiety/OCD. Yes, he admits, but he also excuses "I asked! I tried, she wouldn't answer, she wouldn't confide..." 

She doesn't trust him with her issues. She never has. Maybe for a while now he's been a stellar husband with total emotional involvement and support, maybe he has only done a few things. Frankly, it doesn't matter because her resentment over the past and her lack of trust in his emotional support prevents her from taking a chance with him.

He has asked her to take a chance and she has said no. The only way to save this marriage is to leave it. She has to come to a point where holding on to her resentment and lack of trust is more painful than finding a way to get past it. And that won't happen as long as he continues to play the victim. His wife sees herself as the victim and resents him claiming that right.

He's right to move out of the bedroom and walk away from the rare bone she throws. He's right to tell her, no more we either work to solve this or we work to divorce there can be no middle ground here.

But for heavens sake get the hell out of the victims chair!


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> InAbsentia admits he screwed up and essentially emotionally abandoned his wife when she first started feeling her anxiety/OCD. Yes, he admits, but he also excuses "I asked! I tried, she wouldn't answer, she wouldn't confide..."


I don't really see how you can abandon someone emotionally when you don't have the facts... only a description... it's very easy to blame the person who supposedly hasn't paid enough attention. I'm not a mind reader... I offered help and I asked, asked and asked... but everything was fine. What else can you do? If you can be on your iPad for two hours, you should be able to talk to your husband too...


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I am a certified mind reader and it still does not help...

Even once you get the message to her its chirp chirp chirp...

Crickets...


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> I don't really see how you can abandon someone emotionally when you don't have the facts... only a description... it's very easy to blame the person who supposedly hasn't paid enough attention. I'm not a mind reader... I offered help and I asked, asked and asked... but everything was fine. What else can you do? If you can be on your iPad for two hours, you should be able to talk to your husband too...


I do NOT disagree with you on this. I'm not at all suggesting you are 100% at blame here. I'm simply representing your wife on this. I agree that you should call her on her silence and refusal. I agree that you should not try to have sex with her. 

"I used to want to make love with you. Now I just want to have enough trust and intimacy with you so that you'll feel safe enough to talk to me. You refuse that too. Now I want out."

But you kept making this about sex instead of trust and intimacy. They are not the same thing.

Keep in mind the stupid stereo type almost every woman is raised with: "boys just want one thing." When you say sex you're thinking love. When she hears you say sex she's thinking you getting your rocks off ON her.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

john117 said:


> I am a certified mind reader and it still does not help...
> 
> Even once you get the message to her its chirp chirp chirp...
> 
> Crickets...


John, sweetheart, honey bear, you are not a certified mind reader. You are a certified behavior interpreter with a bunch of science thrown in.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I get paid to read minds (among other things). Interpreting behavior is one of the ways it's done. A lot of information is non verbal - analyzing body language or movements via high speed video frame by frame, instrumentation... 

Knowing what's in their mind helps understand why they think the way they do but really does not tell you much about what to do to change those minds (in the context of our discussion here).

Many LD's don't know either. They know the outcome but not the reasons. They think they do but more often than not it's just self soothsaying.


----------



## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

The core of the issue is that, in general, sex for women is not a base need like it is for men. For men, in general, sex is a biological urge like hunger. Regardless of what's going on in his life, how his wife is treating him, or how his day went, he will still want sex. 

Women are not really like that. For them, sex is more like a hobby. And just like hobbies, interest in the hobby will change over time. That's probably happened to you. Maybe when you were younger you were really into biking or something, but now you don't even think about it. 

So it's easy for women to 'forget' about sex. They don't have this base desire inside of them forcing them to satisfy their urge. If a special occasion comes around, like your anniversary, they'll start thinking about it. If you go on a vacation, they'll start thinking about it. But on a random Tuesday at home--they're not interested.

I suppose it would be like if you and your wife went biking when you were dating. You lost interest, but she wants to go 3-4 times per week. She constantly asks you to go with her, but you're not really interested. You'll say you don't have time, you're tired, you don't feel like it, etc. Sometimes you may go with her to make her happy, but your heart is not into it. If she never asked, you'd never go. 

The difference between sex and biking is that sex is a biological urge that doesn't just go away or is easily suppressed. If it's not satisfied, bad things happen. Affairs, porn, masturbation, depression, divorce, etc are all likely possibilities. The huge mistake women make is not realizing this. No sex means something bad *will* happen. Not might happen, but will happen.


----------



## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

Anon - 

This post - brilliant....

SO what do we do with that pounding "rocks off" message that keeps going off in women's heads?
(I actually had my wife say that is "all I want" before)
How do we get them to see what we WANT love, want, desire, closeness, warmth, connection?
Look...we can put our rocks most anywhere....its our WIFE we want ...and to want us...






Anon Pink said:


> I do NOT disagree with you on this. I'm not at all suggesting you are 100% at blame here. I'm simply representing your wife on this. I agree that you should call her on her silence and refusal. I agree that you should not try to have sex with her.
> 
> "I used to want to make love with you. Now I just want to have enough trust and intimacy with you so that you'll feel safe enough to talk to me. You refuse that too. Now I want out."
> 
> ...


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You're speaking of the biological vs emotional side of sex. I don't care as much about the bio side - not at 55  - but the emotional side is far more critical.

If one is motivated primarily by the biological or pleasure drive to have sex it's one thing but for a lot of people it's the need to connect and stay connected that's driving intimacy. Especially in an older age where physical sex is more of the "been there done that" variety. At least that's how I see it.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

nightmoves8 said:


> Anon -
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They don't see it - I suppose you have the mass media and prevailing culture to thank - but men are not supposed to have emotional needs. No obvious ones.


----------



## bunny23 (May 19, 2011)

This happened to me and am currently in divorce proceedings.

I don't know your history but we had a lot of SERIOUS issues in our marriage and I had health issues.

I've stated on here before (and got crap) that my husband cheating just kind of felt numb. We had a good-great sex life and it just totally went away.

I guess it depends why you make this choice and if you are not just trying to make her mad


----------



## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

John - 
It is a real irony then.

Wives are upset that they believe that husbands are just getting their rocks off...

So they build resentment.

What if they saw it as a want to share intimacy together ...to be loved and show love...to THEM.

What then?
Would they - can they - consider this? If not - then why not?

Men can and do gain a closeness...and an emotional connection when they put the world aside and are naked...close...and alone together with their wife. That enmeshment men want. Even if we rarely even admit it to ourselves.

Yet so many women on here are ANGRY that they are not getting the emotional connection from their husbands (as they - as you note - feel that ONLY comes from them OUTSIDE the bedroom).

Is it possible that "rocks going off" ...and "emotions" are two things that women do not see happening together??


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Yes.







That was uncharacteristically short so let me elaborate...

It's not as much the physical act of being naked but the mental act of feeling connected. Someone like me does not need the words of affirmation acts of service and the partridge and the pear tree and all that. Even sex is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

But being emotionally connected - That makes life worth living, annoyances and all. Because you're not alone. Humans are social animals, etc etc.


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Ok, I will explain this from my perspective as a woman growing up in this society. Ever since 13 years old, I have had sex thrown at me from strange men (ie -catcalls, stares). Multiple times. These experiences taught me about how men view sex, it wasn't anything emotional or special about it for them because if they were acting this way towards me and they didn't even know me. All they knew wa that I was female and that I was developing my lady parts. 

Then my mom taught me that men only want one thing, I believed that because the men who cat called me in the street didn't want to know me as a person, they just saw me as a piece of ass. This validated what my mom said. 

Fast forward to dating, most of the guys I interacted with did not feel safe expressing their emotions, they grew up being taught that only "sissies" cried or showed any emotions other than anger. Some guys kept a frown on their face thinking it made them look manly, keeping their "game face" on so to speak. They always had to be ready to fight or defend their manhood. The men in my family were like this. However the only safe haven to express their emotions, be a man, and let go and be sensitive was through sex. Sex allowed them the space for nurturing and to feel those sensitive emotions. 

They pursued sex, they attached so much meaning to it. Meanwhile, my experiences was exactly the opposite.

This is why men and women see sex different, we are raised in completely different ways. This leads to the disconnect, and to sexless marriages.

In reality, we are speaking 2 different languages.


----------



## neglected42 (Aug 11, 2014)

No, at least I don't see them together. I need the connection, the trust, the compassion first, before I get naked. As a women, I am on the receiving end.....literally. The whole act makes me feel vulnerable. Physically and emotionally. I need to feel safe....cared for.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> I've already said this in OP's other threads but I'm gonna say it again because I'm sick and tired of the vilification going on here.
> 
> She doesn't care if he feels loved or not because SHE doesn't feel loved.
> 
> ...


I agree. Also, I want to clarify (having been in a similar situation) that her having resentments does not mean that her resentments are reasonable. Sure, his response to her mental health issues might not have been 100% on point, but no one is perfect and you can always find fault if you look hard enough. The bottom line remains that she had a mental health issue (nothing he could do about that), shut him out (again, nothing he could do about that), and resents him for a situation mainly of her own doing.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Techmom, it's hard to get past the behavior of a population but remember that we are dealing with an individual... 

By dating and marrying someone it's safe to assume that one puts the population stereotypes behind them...


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

nightmoves8 said:


> John -
> It is a real irony then.
> 
> Wives are upset that they believe that husbands are just getting their rocks off...
> ...


Night, I submit that most people, not just men, fail to communicate their feelings appropriately. How many times over the course of your marriage have you been inside your wife's body and slowed things down just to communicate how close you feel to her when you are inside of her? How often have you said, I feel like we are truly one right now? Or afterward, how many times did you grab her and pull her close to you and explain that while the sex was great, it was feeling so close to her, so in tuned with her, the kind of intimate connection that ONLY sex can bring, that made that moment so wonderful?

This is not to pick on you, or anyone. Women feel that closeness and connection but we don't say anything because we assume he feels it differently and won't understand. Or if we do say something, we might get a "yeah that was great" response.

IOW, how the hell could a woman raised on "men just want one thing" ever come to see that sex means anything more to a man that just getting his rocks off? It's not like our husbands are saying anything!!!!!




john117 said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Stop the presses! A vulnerable moment from the professor? It's a shame your wife is far too warped up in herself to understand the depth of that need. It really is a shame.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

john117 said:


> Techmom, it's hard to get past the behavior of a population but remember that we are dealing with an individual...
> 
> By dating and marrying someone it's safe to assume that one puts the population stereotypes behind them...


See my post above. It is not at ALL safe to assume that.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Stop the presses! A vulnerable moment from the professor? It's a shame your wife is far too warped up in herself to understand the depth of that need. It really is a shame.


I do have such moments on occasion. And guess what. Without emotional support, or being there, I get thru them, and harden even more. So the next time the shell is even thicker, and good luck with that Dr. J2.

A couple years ago I was doing a lot of work with a client a few hours away so I would always drive there and back (cheapo commie company wont fly us). I was driving back home being completely zonked out after 12 hour days, my pet at home had passed away, and I'm driving this danmed Mazda3 in the middle of the Midwest at night at 80mph. That's where it hit me. What the Fvck is going on here. I knew I would go home and J2 would be her usual Thinkpad self... That's where you start wishing for an alien abduction or Godzilla showing up in Louisville to put me out of my misery. 

That's what an emotional connection is all about. It's not about sex, but a lot more than that.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> See my post above. It is not at ALL safe to assume that.


Well... Let's say I'm a Western woman and I have this stereotype of Arabs (pick an ethnic or cultural group at random) as something straight out of Fox News. Yet I meet this really nice guy from some Arab country and we're hitting it on like there's no tomorrow, he buys me the requisite Omega (*) watch from Dubai, proposes, and so on. 

Surely my view of this particular Arab has changed, enough for me to marry him. And, as I am introduced more into their culture it's only natural that the stereotypes I was fed for three decades from Fox News are to be re-evaluated and even shattered. 

Where did I make the mistake? I'm not getting married to a population but to an individual.

The above is pretty much what happened when my parents met J2 for the first time in the mid 80's. J2's country was still part of the Evil Empire so... The first gift I bought her was a Casio digital watch, which is still running fine 30 years later. 

(*) if it's not Omega I'm not marrying him :rofl:


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

john117 said:


> Techmom, it's hard to get past the behavior of a population but remember that we are dealing with an individual...
> 
> By dating and marrying someone it's safe to assume that one puts the population stereotypes behind them...


Yep, we do, until we see the same traits of that stereotype in our spouse. For example, a guy who gets refused has the "most women eat the wedding cake and lose their libido" in his head. A woman who gets hounded for sex does not automatically say, gee he wants an emotional connection. For her an emotional connection is talking and sharing thoughts, not sex. He thinks, gee she doesn't love me? 

Think about the teenage kid who tells his girlfriend, if you love me you would? The girl would think that is just a line to get into her pants, because to her there are many ways to show love.


----------



## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

Neglected - what are the primary thigns that make you feel safe and cared for?


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Maybe I do not depend as much on stereotypes as most people then... There's a big difference between stereotype based decisions for populations and experiential based decisions for individuals.

By the time people are married experience with the individual should trump stereotypes. Maybe not.


----------



## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

John....summed up my thoughts exactly.

Let me add to it.
There ARE times in most mens lives ...that they tend to be more animalistic/biological...even objectify. Age has a lot to do with it.

But, John is correct on many levels. One would think/hope when they make a commitment to marry,build a family and a life together - MANY more things come into the equation. (Yes - for men too...) That does include desire and all that happens when you see your wife and want to be intimate with her. Those feelings - IF a man is truly one of the lucky ones... does not go away. AND ...I see that as a good thing.

I STILL am attracted to my wife. I STILL desire her. Breaking away from the world...the maddening crowd... and lying with her...naked...close...intimate...AND making love....makes life make sense. As John said...as life goes on...it is SO much more than rocks getting off.

And...that is the reason...it si a SEARING pain...when you actually FIND that ...and your wife includes you in the catcall subset.

I don't disagree at ALL with the fact that FOO and societal stereotyping play an enormous role i what you carry into marriage. It is simply sad that reading over and over posts which simply seem to illustrate a real lack of want to move to the middle...and instead...fight in areas ..where the greatest wounds can occur.




john117 said:


> Techmom, it's hard to get past the behavior of a population but remember that we are dealing with an individual...
> 
> By dating and marrying someone it's safe to assume that one puts the population stereotypes behind them...


----------



## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

Great points Anon.

SO here is the thing ...I HAVE communicated that.In many ways I think that - scares her. (but of course there are disordered reasons for that as well).

You know, IF you read so may of these threads AND a lot of the self help articles/books/etc...many actually advocate for the OPPOSITE of sharing feelings. Instead simply TAKE your woman....strong...silent...

I will tell you....I can be all that ...and have been...I think the deeper feelings occur with maturity...and ...IF a man has been lucky enough to find that person. SO many don't. 

I have had a wonderful history of great r/s's....and and had not. Until my wife. I wince when her FOO stuff and her myriad of "stuff" enters her mind..and she puts me into the "men want one thing" place. I simply feel sad. For her. For me.

Found it. The real thing. She doesn't "trust" it. Have finally come to understand that it is within her ...that this comes from.
But...the result is still the same...ironic...and sad.






Anon Pink said:


> Night, I submit that most people, not just men, fail to communicate their feelings appropriately. How many times over the course of your marriage have you been inside your wife's body and slowed things down just to communicate how close you feel to her when you are inside of her? How often have you said, I feel like we are truly one right now? Or afterward, how many times did you grab her and pull her close to you and explain that while the sex was great, it was feeling so close to her, so in tuned with her, the kind of intimate connection that ONLY sex can bring, that made that moment so wonderful?
> 
> This is not to pick on you, or anyone. Women feel that closeness and connection but we don't say anything because we assume he feels it differently and won't understand. Or if we do say something, we might get a "yeah that was great" response.
> 
> IOW, how the hell could a woman raised on "men just want one thing" ever come to see that sex means anything more to a man that just getting his rocks off? It's not like our husbands are saying anything!!!!!


----------



## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

Damn...so its all about the WATCH!...
(palm hits forehead...lol)


----------



## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

Tech Mom...

You have done a great job here...showcasing the twists and turns and upside down nature of this ....

At times - it seems insurmountable....climbing Everest...in the dark....with no oxygen....



techmom said:


> Yep, we do, until we see the same traits of that stereotype in our spouse. For example, a guy who gets refused has the "most women eat the wedding cake and lose their libido" in his head. A woman who gets hounded for sex does not automatically say, gee he wants an emotional connection. For her an emotional connection is talking and sharing thoughts, not sex. He thinks, gee she doesn't love me?
> 
> Think about the teenage kid who tells his girlfriend, if you love me you would? The girl would think that is just a line to get into her pants, because to her there are many ways to show love.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> I do NOT disagree with you on this. I'm not at all suggesting you are 100% at blame here. I'm simply representing your wife on this. I agree that you should call her on her silence and refusal. I agree that you should not try to have sex with her.
> 
> "I used to want to make love with you. Now I just want to have enough trust and intimacy with you so that you'll feel safe enough to talk to me. You refuse that too. Now I want out."
> 
> ...


When challenged about her lack of communication in the last "talk", she said she can't change herself, that's the way she is. So, basically, all these years I've been banging my head against a wall. When I try and talk to her - to understand what's going on - she takes every comment as a personal attack. She hates conflict. When there is a problem, you need to know the facts in order to be able to solve it.

I'm sure she saw that just as an effort on my behalf to get laid. It wasn't like that. I wanted her to be happy, to talk to me. I suggested many things, but she didn't do anything about it. Then she felt "hounded"... I understand that, but all she needed to do was to talk to me, instead of shutting down.

When you have a mental illness, and people refuse to cooperate, you are stuck... especially when they pretend everything is fine.

Trust and intimacy... absolutely. But your partner needs to be open to them too. It's not much fun loving a fridge...


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

DTO said:


> The bottom line remains that she had a mental health issue (nothing he could do about that), shut him out (again, nothing he could do about that), and resents him for a situation mainly of her own doing.



well, yes... to be helped, you need to be wanting help. I know we keep talking about this, but men are not mind readers...

The thing is my wife didn't want me to leave. So, instead of telling me: look, I'm suffering mentally, I have no sex drive, I don't want sex with you - maybe forever - she dragged me through hell. I wish she just told me that. But she hates conflict, so she never did... we also had 3 small children...

I had to wait 15 years to hear these words... after I finally had enough...


----------



## neglected42 (Aug 11, 2014)

Nightmoves8 -it is difficult for me to answer that in a way that will be helpful. My husband is the only man I have had a relationship with, and the fact that he is an alcoholic (causing extreme selfishness) makes my perspective jaded to say the least. 

To feel cared for and safe I would have required the following things: 
a) affection without it being sexual. (A hug without making the sound of a revving truck would have been nice) b) saying "it's ok honey, I got it" when I was ill, exhausted, or stressed c) taking on responsibilities without having to be told to do it (I have to tell my children to do things....constantly. They are learning how to take care of themselves and a household. This is not something I want to have to do with my husband as well) Like the children, he would let me do absolutely everything. Having to ask for every little thing makes me feel like his mommy. d) be a good role model and dad to his children so I can feel they are safe e) keep his temper to himself. I have read many strands on TAM where men say...sure I have lost my temper a few times, said some things I shouldn't, threw a few things around, but I did not do it often. Do not underestimate the effect of this!!! f) behave in a manner that shows concern for my well being g) Look at me with love and admiration once in awhile instead of only lust


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

neglected42 said:


> e) keep his temper to himself. I have read many strands on TAM where men say...sure I have lost my temper a few times, said some things I shouldn't, threw a few things around, but I did not do it often. Do not underestimate the effect of this!!!


I'm ashamed to say I've done this - apart from throwing things around... 

The thing is, I come from a family where discussions are the norm... not arguments, discussions... about everything. All the time...  I guess I didn't turned down this aspect enough according to my wife's character or personality. I got this wrong and I suspect it might have had a massive impact... do remember though that i was kept in the dark...


----------



## 1812overture (Nov 25, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> IOW, how the hell could a woman raised on "men just want one thing" ever come to see that sex means anything more to a man that just getting his rocks off?


 Any number of times, but mostly earlier in our relationship, my wife told me what attracted her to me is that I was different. If somehow, somewhere, I became a stereotypical man, I don't know when that was. hell, she even points to other couples and wonders why we aren't more like them.



> You know, IF you read so may of these threads AND a lot of the self help articles/books/etc...many actually advocate for the OPPOSITE of sharing feelings. Instead simply TAKE your woman....strong...silent...


 I see that contradiction, as well. There's the connection she says she wants, but even the limited 180 I've done seems to pique her interest.


> I suggested many things, but she didn't do anything about it. Then she felt "hounded"... I understand that, but all she needed to do was to talk to me, instead of shutting down.


 My suggestions are all wrong, too. I don't believe she feels hounded (at least not for sex), but "forced" to worry is probably how she would put it. Because I won't "worry." Instead, I'll analyze, plan, consider . . . then let it go. It is, in fact, something I have actively worked on. "Worry" gets us nowhere.



> They are learning how to take care of themselves and a household. This is not something I want to have to do with my husband as well) Like the children, he would let me do absolutely everything. Having to ask for every little thing makes me feel like his mommy.


Neglected, the alcoholism makes your problem bigger, and scarier, than mine. My Dad was alcoholic, so please know that I understand your quandary, and if the things I say/suggest don't work for you, that is no surprise. But I suppose it doesn't hurt to try.
My wife has on occasion said she feels as though I am another of her children. I find it enraging. I lived on my own for a decade -- cooking meat and potatoes doesn't make me a child. Doing most my laundry in cold water because I just want to be sure nothing runs doesn't make me a child. Etc., etc. Surely that paycheck that hits every two weeks isn't something the kids provide. Our retirement portfolio is aggressively invested because we won't need it for another 25 years. Other investments are more conservatively invested . . . I think you'll get the point of my argument. IF, and that's a big if, your husband might have similar counter-arguments, you might consider pointing out, to him and yourself, what he does that you appreciate. Find something. Then something else. Work from there. Something like: "I loved the way you explained Sandy Koufax and Yom Kippur to the kids. I think it helped them understand why religion matters so much to some people." Maybe that'll help. I am rooting for you.


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

neglected42 said:


> Nightmoves8 -it is difficult for me to answer that in a way that will be helpful. My husband is the only man I have had a relationship with, and the fact that he is an alcoholic (causing extreme selfishness) makes my perspective jaded to say the least.
> 
> To feel cared for and safe I would have required the following things:
> a) affection without it being sexual. (A hug without making the sound of a revving truck would have been nice) b) saying "it's ok honey, I got it" when I was ill, exhausted, or stressed c) taking on responsibilities without having to be told to do it (I have to tell my children to do things....constantly. They are learning how to take care of themselves and a household. This is not something I want to have to do with my husband as well) Like the children, he would let me do absolutely everything. Having to ask for every little thing makes me feel like his mommy. d) be a good role model and dad to his children so I can feel they are safe e) keep his temper to himself. I have read many strands on TAM where men say...sure I have lost my temper a few times, said some things I shouldn't, threw a few things around, but I did not do it often. Do not underestimate the effect of this!!! f) behave in a manner that shows concern for my well being g) Look at me with love and admiration once in awhile instead of only lust


:iagree:

Most of my life I was treated as a sex object, I like being treated as if I have other aspects to my being.


----------



## 1812overture (Nov 25, 2013)

techmom said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Most of my life I was treated as a sex object, I like being treated as if I have other aspects to my being.


This is completely understandable. But, I'll admit, I would love it if my wife treated me as a sex object for even 30 minutes, this weekend. She used to be the only sex object in my life. There are now no sex objects in my life. 

But if there can be no lust, love and admiration would be a nice consolation prize.


----------



## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

1812overture said:


> This is completely understandable. But, I'll admit, I would love it if my wife treated me as a sex object for even 30 minutes, this weekend. She used to be the only sex object in my life. There are now no sex objects in my life.
> 
> But if there can be no lust, love and admiration would be a nice consolation prize.


No matter how bad your situation... LUST can be attained.

All of us on TAM know that Love, Respect, Admiration and LUST is a great thing to have in a great relationship.

Figure out what turns her on and if there is anyway short of dying that you can attain it for her through you!


----------



## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

techmom said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Most of my life I was treated as a sex object, I like being treated as if I have other aspects to my being.


I have been noticing that children who grow up coddled and not own their own mistakes, will never mature.

Youths are not taught how to communicate, be independent, and be empathetic. 

They are not being self aware. Luckily, I was raised differently.

My father never let me get away with anything, and made me fix my own problems. My mom made me do dishes, laundry, yard work, clean toilets, mop , and whatever else.

Those habits are so strong in me, I am practically the only guy I know that folds my boxers and organize them. 

Also a stressed out woman isn't going to want sex. Especially a guy she has to look out for. As men, if we want sex, we have to keep the attraction alive. Be independent, be good at listening, not critiquing, stay fit, keep well groom, be confident, and mentally strong. 

Of course women are great communicators, especially with other women. With men, they have to be direct, because men won't catch on the nuances. 

If you look at animals, it is the males that are courting the females. Sorry guys, but in that aspect, we have to do most of the work. It is simply the way it is.


----------



## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Let me ask you a question along the lines of being "completely sexless better than pity sex?"...


What if you were in jail. And a new program would allow you to have 2 conjugations a week with a female both of you are tested before the conjugations.

It's not her great desire to provide the sex but she will allow it and allow you to copulate until completion.

If you were going to be in jail for 5-10 years, and this is a form of sex you could get, would you turn it down because it was lacking passion, love and intensity?

I think I'd take it and like jail food I'd make it taste as good as I can.


----------



## neglected42 (Aug 11, 2014)

> I got this wrong and I suspect it might have had a massive impact...


In Absentia, did you lose your temper (without throwing things) in response to your wife's lack of desire, at a time when she needed compassion and empathy? (I understand you were lacking the information at the time that she needed compassion and empathy)

My husband often let loose his temper due to my lack of desire. (My lack of desire was caused by exhaustion, illness, a direct result of his neglect). I needed compassion and empathy and ended up getting his temper. This set up a pattern of me obliging him to avoid his temper. This was our doom, (in the bedroom anyway) Could this have happened with your wife?

1812overture I totally understand what you are saying. My husband would have taken great offence if I wanted him to do things the way I did them. I would NEVER correct any chore he was doing, or imply it was not done correctly. I totally understand how that would be infuriating. (It is actually my husband who likes to critique). I just wanted him to be involved in the responsibilities of the household and kids without me having to ask for every little thing. (Of course, it did not help that he wanted a round of applause for every little thing as well)


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

neglected42 said:


> In Absentia, did you lose your temper (without throwing things) in response to your wife's lack of desire, at a time when she needed compassion and empathy? (I understand you were lacking the information at the time that she needed compassion and empathy)


I wouldn't say I "lost my temper"... I would say I got angry and said hurtful things... this lasted about 20 seconds... I don't just lose my temper... I never have. I'm not like that.



> My husband often let loose his temper due to my lack of desire. (My lack of desire was caused by exhaustion, illness, a direct result of his neglect). I needed compassion and empathy and ended up getting his temper. This set up a pattern of me obliging him to avoid his temper. This was our doom, (in the bedroom anyway) Could this have happened with your wife?


If your husband knew about this, then you were right to lose your attraction for him... if he didn't, then, you should have told him... but for my wife was exactly how you describe it... if I had known about it, I wouldn't have done it... not that I did it on purpose... my aim was to love her and to be close to her. I felt pushed out... also, I never neglected her and I was doing mostly of the house chores...


----------



## doobie (Apr 15, 2014)

treyvion said:


> Let me ask you a question along the lines of being "completely sexless better than pity sex?"...
> 
> 
> What if you were in jail. And a new program would allow you to have 2 conjugations a week with a female both of you are tested before the conjugations.
> ...


Treyvion, while this is a great approach in many ways, none of us here are actually in jail. When I read your reply, the first thing it made me think is that if we take this approach, then really we are seeing our marriages as a jail. 

Jail is a form of punishment for a transgression and inmates have a loss of freedom (not just to be outdoors, but the freedom to live a normal life that involves family, relationships, friendships, work, leisure and sex) as a direct result of their criminal behaviour. However, I'm not a criminal, I haven't done anything wrong but I really feel that I'm being punished - I have lost my freedom to have sex. Lately, that is just how I have been seeing my marriage - as a trap. I desperately want to have a sex life and don't have one within marriage so I'm beginning to feel very trapped by that.


----------



## neglected42 (Aug 11, 2014)

What if your wives opened up the option of going outside of your marriage for sex. If you end up falling in love, well then her loss and your happiness. Would you feel less anger and resentment?


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I'll take jail. The food is better


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

neglected42 said:


> What if your wives opened up the option of going outside of your marriage for sex. If you end up falling in love, well then her loss and your happiness. Would you feel less anger and resentment?


To be honest, love is the last of my worries right now... I've worked through anger and resentment the last few years... I knew this was coming... right now, I'm working my ass off to support my kids at uni, since my wife earns enough to buy them an ice cream now and then...


----------



## neglected42 (Aug 11, 2014)

I mean would you feel as though she was caring for your needs by letting you go outside of the marriage for sex. In doing so, she would understand that there is a risk you may fall in love with someone else. Would you see this as an unselfish act from her. Would it help you to see her in a better light? 

Does your wife's issues prevent her from working?


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

neglected42 said:


> I mean would you feel as though she was caring for your needs by letting you go outside of the marriage for sex. In doing so, she would understand that there is a risk you may fall in love with someone else. Would you see this as an unselfish act from her. Would it help you to see her in a better light?
> 
> 
> 
> Does your wife's issues prevent her from working?



Just the opposite. I would see it as her being selfish and trying to keep the benefits of marriage without the work or responsibilities.

The moment your spouse cares so little for you that you can screw others, you know it's time to cut bait.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

neglected42 said:


> I mean would you feel as though she was caring for your needs by letting you go outside of the marriage for sex. In doing so, she would understand that there is a risk you may fall in love with someone else. Would you see this as an unselfish act from her. Would it help you to see her in a better light?
> 
> Does your wife's issues prevent her from working?


well, neglected... as WOM said, I would it see more like a desperate attempt to keep me there, to be honest. In fact, she has mentioned it (that I could have sex with other women, if I wanted to). But I said I was only interested in her, no other woman. I never cheated and never will. But now I feel I find myself in a position where I would pay attention to other women's flirting... of course I would tell my wife before I did anything about it...

I think she expects me to find someone else at some point.

When I decided to go sexless, she crumbled. Then I found out that she thought I was leaving the house and that she had to cope with everything. When we talked two days later, I told her I wasn't leaving... all of a sudden, she was happy and she said she didn't want to have sex with me, ever again, because we are sexually incompatible. The thing is, we are not! We were absolutely fine for 10 years, then her mental illness started and all went wrong... 

It's happened before. She panics when she thinks I'm leaving her. But not because she wants me there, it's because it would be highly inconvenient for her. When she realises I'm not leaving, she is happy again and she is happy to withheld sex, because it has no consequences...

To answer your last question: no, her mental state doesn't stop her from working or leading a normal life. This is the front she puts up, though. Now I know that, underneath, she is a very troubled woman. But she kept it secret from me. Hence all the problems, I had no idea and couldn't help her. She has zero communication skills. She just doesn't talk about her feelings. Ever.


----------



## OhGeesh (Jan 5, 2010)

Cheat if you are unwilling to divorce........you only live once screw being miserable and not happy.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

OhGeesh said:


> Cheat if you are unwilling to divorce........you only live once screw being miserable and not happy.


I won't chat... if I'm heading that way, we will separate first. I promised her and I will keep my word.


----------



## neglected42 (Aug 11, 2014)

So basically, sex is the only responsibility of marriage? Your wives are not contributing to the marriage and household in other ways? Without sex, do you not have any "benefit of marriage"? There are all kinds of LD couples out there, happily married. They enjoy all kinds of benefits of marriage that the other provides. Friendship, sharing of responsibilities, emotional support, etc. If you are not enjoying any of these things and your wives are just there to take your money, then certainly, why would you stay?

If your wives had a physical condition that prevented them from having sex. (As opposed to what could potentially be a mental one) would you stay? If they told you to have sex with other women, would you then see this as an unselfish act?

The brain controls the body. The brain is supposed to perceive sex as pleasurable. This is basic hard wiring for the purpose of reproduction. Clearly something has happened that has changed the way your wives brain perceives sex. One cannot undo brain wiring by thinking about it. People have thought that for years. That is why mental health issues are not understood, n'or empathized with.

Can brain wiring be undone? Not through anger and blame. Something has happened to that very basic wiring. Can you imagine a life without sex? No? That is because your brain wiring is working. Sex = good to you. Your wives are willing to risk their marriages because sex = bad. They would like to go the rest of their life without it. This makes no logical sense. You take this personally, it makes you angry. If it was a physical affliction, you would not have the anger. 

Are your wives willing to try and fix it? Look up sexual aversion. It is not an easy thing to fix. (Brain wiring issues never are). Did you contribute to this problem?? Only you know that for sure. It will require behavior therapy. It is slow, and results come in baby steps. You will need a sex therapist.

Do your wives love you? Are you friends? Are you loving, respectful partners? If so, the above may be something to think about. If your wives are refusing sex out of spite than that is a different thing. If sex makes them anxious then there is something far more complex than spite going on.


----------



## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

doobie said:


> Treyvion, while this is a great approach in many ways, none of us here are actually in jail. When I read your reply, the first thing it made me think is that if we take this approach, then really we are seeing our marriages as a jail.
> 
> Jail is a form of punishment for a transgression and inmates have a loss of freedom (not just to be outdoors, but the freedom to live a normal life that involves family, relationships, friendships, work, leisure and sex) as a direct result of their criminal behaviour. However, I'm not a criminal, I haven't done anything wrong but I really feel that I'm being punished - I have lost my freedom to have sex. Lately, that is just how I have been seeing my marriage - as a trap. I desperately want to have a sex life and don't have one within marriage so I'm beginning to feel very trapped by that.


A lot of people feel trapped because they are implied to have to support and take care of someone, who does very little in return for them. ( In these sexless situations ) It does feel like a form of punishment.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

neglected42 said:


> So basically, sex is the only responsibility of marriage? Your wives are not contributing to the marriage and household in other ways? Without sex, do you not have any "benefit of marriage"? There are all kinds of LD couples out there, happily married. They enjoy all kinds of benefits of marriage that the other provides. Friendship, sharing of responsibilities, emotional support, etc. If you are not enjoying any of these things and your wives are just there to take your money, then certainly, why would you stay?


We share responsibilities and friendship, but there is no emotional support... I call it emotional abandonment... 
She doesn't take my money... well, to a certain extent, because she earns very little... this is not enough for a marriage, especially if you also take sex out of the equation...



neglected42 said:


> If your wives had a physical condition that prevented them from having sex. (As opposed to what could potentially be a mental one) would you stay? If they told you to have sex with other women, would you then see this as an unselfish act?


We could have "sex" in different ways... and if she said I could have sex with other women, yes, that would be an unselfish act... I don't even want sex that much. It's the connection... in fact, we were having sex once a month...




neglected42 said:


> The brain controls the body. The brain is supposed to perceive sex as pleasurable. This is basic hard wiring for the purpose of reproduction. Clearly something has happened that has changed the way your wives brain perceives sex. One cannot undo brain wiring by thinking about it. People have thought that for years. That is why mental health issues are not understood, n'or empathized with.


I don't know exactly what happened. She never told me, despite my questioning. I guess it must have been her OCD...



neglected42 said:


> Can brain wiring be undone? Not through anger and blame. Something has happened to that very basic wiring. Can you imagine a life without sex? No? That is because your brain wiring is working. Sex = good to you. Your wives are willing to risk their marriages because sex = bad. They would like to go the rest of their life without it. This makes no logical sense. You take this personally, it makes you angry. If it was a physical affliction, you would not have the anger.


Agree.



neglected42 said:


> Are your wives willing to try and fix it? Look up sexual aversion. It is not an easy thing to fix. (Brain wiring issues never are). Did you contribute to this problem?? Only you know that for sure. It will require behavior therapy. It is slow, and results come in baby steps. You will need a sex therapist.


No. She is not prepared to fix it. She told me she will never seek therapy. This is it. Things will never change.



neglected42 said:


> Do your wives love you? Are you friends? Are you loving, respectful partners? If so, the above may be something to think about. If your wives are refusing sex out of spite than that is a different thing. If sex makes them anxious then there is something far more complex than spite going on.


I believe she does, in her own way. She refuses sex because, as you said, sex = bad for her. I must have contributed with my "anger". But, I ask myself, is it normal that your wife takes every tiny little criticism as a personal attack? And then she shuts down for weeks? To me, this means she unable to have an emotional relationship, she can't open up. This has lead to all sorts of problems, because we couldn't communicate and I couldn't help her. We are talking discussing things, not even arguing... I've been hostage of this for many years. Then, when you get "angry" for banging your head against a wall, it's my fault... and the cycle of silence and rejection starts again...


----------



## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> We share responsibilities and friendship, but there is no emotional support... I call it emotional abandonment...
> She doesn't take my money... well, to a certain extent, because she earns very little... this is not enough for a marriage, especially if you also take sex out of the equation...
> 
> 
> ...


There's so many other things you can do if you can't have penetrative sex. Hugs, kisses, oral, massage, etc, etc.

Many of the hard to get around penetrative issues do have a solution, such as vaganimus you have a dialator process and eventually the poor response gets trained out of the vagina.

Ones who do not lubricate, they can buy proper lubes, perhaps you don't have sex as much, but you give the husband the closeness.

You have hand jobs and oral, and he can perform oral on the lady.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

neglected42 said:


> If your wives had a physical condition that prevented them from having sex (as opposed to what could potentially be a mental one) would you stay?.


The problem is that this problem is not preventing her from having sex. They were having sex (albeit at a low rate) before. This screams of an issue with the OP's wife being too lazy to address the issue.



neglected42 said:


> One cannot undo brain wiring by thinking about it.


No argument here. But we are not animals, where feels "good"/"right" = do it and "feels bad" = "avoid" - end of story. Humans have the ability to reason. Here, a reasonable person would consider "something that everyone else likes I abhor - I need to explore why and do something about it". But that's not happening. The key is brain wiring can be undone (at least to a significant extent) if one is willing to work hard enough at it.



neglected42 said:


> Are your wives willing to try and fix it? You will need a sex therapist.


Now we are at the heart of the issue. The OP's wife is simply too selfish to invest the effort to get better. I am confident if she had an issue which truly prevented sex, the OP would be understanding. But she is not even trying to seek professional help.

You correctly mentioned the phenomenon of people not taking mental health issues seriously. But, ironically, the OP's wife is the one pooh-poohing it away. I would wager a large sum that if she broke a bone, for instance, she would get to the doctor in a hurry.

The reason she does not do that here is because she just cannot be bothered. That is nothing more than laziness and lack of empathy. THAT is the real issue here.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

DTO said:


> The reason she does not do that here is because she just cannot be bothered. That is nothing more than laziness and lack of empathy. THAT is the real issue here.


Correct... more than laziness I would say it's selfishness on her part. To the extent that she is prepared to destroy her marriage, with all the consequences for her children too.

I would understand (maybe) if it was just me... sh!t happens... but she is doing this to her children too. I'll never understand that from a mother.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

So is the marriage not that important to her or does she not believe she'll lost it?


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> So is the marriage not that important to her or does she not believe she'll lost it?


Bit of both...  I'm staying for the children and in the house because they would be the ones to be disadvantaged mostly if I left... so, she is fine. In fact, she is happy. The family is still there and she doesn't have to have sex with me... 

But last time we had the talk she was adamant that things would never change and that we are sexually incompatible (rubbish!). The obvious step would be divorce and she would accept that. I just can't believe she is behaving like this...


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

So that means that you're not especially important to her but she'll ride out the benefits as long as you'll provide them? That's a hell of a way to live.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> So that means that you're not especially important to her but she'll ride out the benefits as long as you'll provide them? That's a hell of a way to live.


Not for long...


----------



## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

"Re: Going completely sexless... better than pity sex?"

I think it depends on the guy. I think some men who view sex as just sex would be fine with pity sex. After all, sex is just sex and gettin off is just gettin off. Like the BTO song "any love is good luv!" Nothin wrong with this if that's your ticket.

But most of the guys on TAM it seems (I include myself) want more than sex. We want love. We got married for love. Love trumps everything. We want to make love. No better feeling in the world. Therefore pity sex is just no good, and then no sex is just better. 

So, after trying everything we can over years and the partner is unyielding, we get acquainted with our right hand again just to relieve the tension and choose either to live with it and go on, or bail out of the plane (hopefully with a parachute).

my last marriage was that way.


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> Not for long...


Okay. What does that mean? Are you pulling the plug?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> Okay. What does that mean? Are you pulling the plug?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm waiting for my "little one" to go to uni... she is 14...


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

jorgegene said:


> "Re: Going completely sexless... better than pity sex?"
> 
> I think it depends on the guy. I think some men who view sex as just sex would be fine with pity sex. After all, sex is just sex and gettin off is just gettin off. Like the BTO song "any love is good luv!" Nothin wrong with this if that's your ticket.
> 
> ...



Agree completely... I just want my wife back!


----------



## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> I'm waiting for my "little one" to go to uni... she is 14...


There's probably somethings you can do now to make things easier for you in the future. For example, create an email trail where you ask her to get a full-time job. That way if she doesn't have a job when you separate, you can show how you wanted her to get a job and she chose not to. That might help with spousal support payments.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

wilson said:


> There's probably somethings you can do now to make things easier for you in the future. For example, create an email trail where you ask her to get a full-time job. That way if she doesn't have a job when you separate, you can show how you wanted her to get a job and she chose not to. That might help with spousal support payments.


I don't really care about money... I will give her money if she doesn't have enough... I've been paying the mortgage for years and still only half of it will be mine... I'm not the materialistic type... if we divorce, I doubt she'll ask for money from me... she knows she drove me out...


----------



## 1812overture (Nov 25, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> Well, yes, I've done it. After many years of torture, I told my wife I'd rather go completely sexless than receiving pity sex... she didn't seem happy, but didn't object. I guess that tells you everything you need to know...
> 
> My question is: has anybody here on TAM gone the same way?
> 
> *Please note that I'm not doing this to win my wife back, only for my own sanity.*


In Ab -- I'm just trying to make sure I've got this right. It's been a week and 1) You told your wife you were done with sex
2) She was a bit put off by it, but didn't say that was unacceptable
3) Now that she realizes it isn't a precursor to divorce, she is, in fact pleased
4) you are planning in leaving in a few more years

If I have that right, can I ask:
Does your wife suspect you'll be leaving? If she doesn't, do you think you tell her to start preparing? (In that case, she'd probably be back to being put off by your decision)

and then you wrote:



> I just want my wife back!


I'm not playing gotcha', because I go through this a lot. I love my wife, I think she is very sexy, I still can't quite envision that we WON'T grow old together.

But I've stopped initiating sex, it's been six months, she doesn't seem to care. So, on a parallel path, I'm contemplating leaving. (Some may say they've heard that from me, before.)

Yu aren't really over her, are you? You are still hopeful that something magical will happen, and she'll want you, again.



> There's so many other things you can do if you can't have penetrative sex. Hugs, kisses, oral, massage, etc, etc.


 I assume this is correct. But since my wife can, but chooses not to, she also doesn't off the others. I've not offered them for the past three months, and she has not mentioned that they are missed.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

1812overture said:


> If I have that right, can I ask:
> Does your wife suspect you'll be leaving? If she doesn't, do you think you tell her to start preparing? (In that case, she'd probably be back to being put off by your decision)


Not sure... possibly. I have no idea because we can't have a conversation without her accusing me of something...



> Yu aren't really over her, are you? You are still hopeful that something magical will happen, and she'll want you, again.


Yes, I'm secretly wishing she'll change her mind and we can live happily ever after.  It won't happen, though... 

The next few weeks, I'll know for sure...


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> Not sure... possibly. I have no idea because we can't have a conversation without her accusing me of something....


Accusing you of what?


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> Accusing you of what?


that I only care about my "right" to have sex with her... and that I only care about my needs and not hers... also, that I look resentful when we have a conversation... 3 lies...


----------



## tommyr (May 25, 2014)

I am amazed at how many men think this tactic (going sexless) will work. So you are the HD and you expect to cure your sexless marriage by waiting for your LD wife to approach you for sex, meanwhile you pretend there is no problem.

Report back in 6 months and let us know how it goes. I predict she will be happier and you will be angrier. But maybe then you will be willing to take a non-passive approach to this problem and we can offer some effective advice.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

tommyr said:


> I am amazed at how many men think this tactic (going sexless) will work. So you are the HD and you expect to cure your sexless marriage by waiting for your LD wife to approach you for sex, meanwhile you pretend there is no problem.
> 
> Report back in 6 months and let us know how it goes. I predict she will be happier and you will be angrier. But maybe then you will be willing to take a non-passive approach to this problem and we can offer some effective advice.


tommy, I'm doing doing this to "win her back"... this was in *bold* in my first post. I'm doing this for my sanity. We reached stalemate so my only option is divorce. She doesn't want to have sex with me any more. She doesn't want to go to therapy to fix herself. There is nothing more I can do... I'm waiting for my little one to go to uni. Then I'll go. In the meantime, I'm not prepared to accept the pity sex she would be offering... I'd rather not have sex.


----------



## tommyr (May 25, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> tommy, I'm doing doing this to "win her back"... this was in *bold* in my first post. I'm doing this for my sanity. We reached stalemate so my only option is divorce. She doesn't want to have sex with me any more. She doesn't want to go to therapy to fix herself. There is nothing more I can do... I'm waiting for my little one to go to uni. Then I'll go. In the meantime, I'm not prepared to accept the pity sex she would be offering... I'd rather not have sex.


1. read your first sentence above, did you "forget" the negative? Freudian slip?
2. i do not believe you anyway. this is irrational thought, and you seem like a rational person. Because you later said _"Yes, I'm secretly wishing she'll change her mind and we can live happily ever after"_
3. your experiment will fail because you cannot (long term) suppress a normal instinct to have sex, nor should you.

keep us posted.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

tommyr said:


> 1. read your first sentence above, did you "forget" the negative? Freudian slip?
> 2. i do not believe you anyway. this is irrational thought, and you seem like a rational person. Because you later said _"Yes, I'm secretly wishing she'll change her mind and we can live happily ever after"_
> 3. your experiment will fail because you cannot (long term) suppress a normal instinct to have sex, nor should you.
> 
> keep us posted.


sorry... yes, Freudian slip indeed! 

Of course I would be pleased if she changed her mind. But as things stand, it's not going to happen. So, for some time I have to put up with it. Wife said I can have sex with other women, but I guess, before that happens, we'll have to separate... we'll see how it goes...


----------



## tommyr (May 25, 2014)

Here is what will happen:
She will be much happier because she's not having sex and you are not pressuring her to have sex.
YOU will become angry and resentful. This makes you a LOT less desirable, crushing any remains of attraction she may have for you.

Start flirting with some other ladies and see what happens. Wife has already told you to do this, so do it.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

tommyr said:


> Here is what will happen:
> She will be much happier because she's not having sex and you are not pressuring her to have sex.
> YOU will become angry and resentful. This makes you a LOT less desirable, crushing any remains of attraction she may have for you.


I'm already angry and resentful... 



> Start flirting with some other ladies and see what happens. Wife has already told you to do this, so do it.


that's my plan...


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I think the 180 is perfect for your situation. Live with her but start detaching. I would even go so far as to move into another bedroom of you can.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> I think the 180 is perfect for your situation. Live with her but start detaching. I would even go so far as to move into another bedroom of you can.


Actually, the detaching started about 3 years ago when she told me things would never change... I knew there wasn't much hope left... and after the "talk" the other day I moved into my office...


----------



## 1812overture (Nov 25, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> Actually, the detaching started about 3 years ago when she told me things would never change... I knew there wasn't much hope left... and after the "talk" the other day I moved into my office...


But, as Tommy says, this gives her the EXACT life she wants -- a live-in co-parent, a roommate to help divide and conquer on chores and to help defray costs of various costs associated with room and board. I'll assume SHE makes more of the decorating, eating out, vacation plan decisions.

It's the perfect solution for her. (And for him, if scenarios where a man won't give it up.) But it's far from the kind of marriage you want, right? Bandit suggests the 180, and I can say from my limited experience it kind of works. 

She sees (who? her husband? her man? the man everything thinks she loves?) him building a life that doesn't include her. So she makes adjustments to keep him in her life -- but will it be a realization that a real-life romance with her husband, including sex, intimacy, emotional support, is also want she wants? There's enough evidence here to suggest it won't.


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

So IA, how do plan on maintaining celibacy? Zen Buddhism? Huge bags of weed? Castration? 

Not trying to be flippant.....well....yes I guess I am....

Point being, you have along time to wait for that youngest to hit 18.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> So IA, how do plan on maintaining celibacy? Zen Buddhism? Huge bags of weed? Castration?
> 
> Not trying to be flippant.....well....yes I guess I am....
> 
> Point being, you have along time to wait for that youngest to hit 18.


I have a big box of tissues...


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

1812overture said:


> But, as Tommy says, this gives her the EXACT life she wants -- a live-in co-parent, a roommate to help divide and conquer on chores and to help defray costs of various costs associated with room and board. I'll assume SHE makes more of the decorating, eating out, vacation plan decisions.
> 
> It's the perfect solution for her. (And for him, if scenarios where a man won't give it up.) But it's far from the kind of marriage you want, right? Bandit suggests the 180, and I can say from my limited experience it kind of works.
> 
> She sees (who? her husband? her man? the man everything thinks she loves?) him building a life that doesn't include her. So she makes adjustments to keep him in her life -- but will it be a realization that a real-life romance with her husband, including sex, intimacy, emotional support, is also want she wants? There's enough evidence here to suggest it won't.



you are talking about her like she is a normal person... she ain't... she'll be fine. I will be too... eventually.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

BTW, I'm not being flippant either... its' been a very long day, really busy and with some bad news on the pets front...


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> you are talking about her like she is a normal person... she ain't... she'll be fine. I will be too... eventually.



Ah, the ever popular NormalPeople (tm) vs NonNormalPeople (tm) debate...


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

john117 said:


> Ah, the ever popular NormalPeople (tm) vs NonNormalPeople (tm) debate...


yep... it's rather frustrating... all the advice seems to be based on the assumption that we are dealing with NormalPeople(tm)... and it doesn't work...

I was talking to my eldest daughter yesterday and she knows that "mother" doesn't show any emotions or doesn't really talk about what's going on in her head... it was sad and relieving at the same time... sad because this is what she is doing to them and relieving because it's not me going crazy...


----------



## doobie (Apr 15, 2014)

bandit.45 said:


> So IA, how do plan on maintaining celibacy? Zen Buddhism? Huge bags of weed? Castration?
> 
> Not trying to be flippant.....well....yes I guess I am....
> 
> Point being, you have along time to wait for that youngest to hit 18.


I've managed to detach and the big bag of weed certainly helps. The only way I manage to get to sleep is to get stoned - otherwise I will be up all night, frustrated and unable to get to sleep. The weed is what makes the situation bearable at the moment - when I don't have any, I find my sexless marriage much more difficult to cope with. At least if I have weed, when all my work is done and it comes to the end of the day, I can have a few joints and then get to a point where I don't care about the state of my marriage while I get to sleep.


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

doobie said:


> I've managed to detach and the big bag of weed certainly helps. The only way I manage to get to sleep is to get stoned - otherwise I will be up all night, frustrated and unable to get to sleep. The weed is what makes the situation bearable at the moment - when I don't have any, I find my sexless marriage much more difficult to cope with. At least if I have weed, when all my work is done and it comes to the end of the day, I can have a few joints and then get to a point where I don't care about the state of my marriage while I get to sleep.


I indulge occasionally. I have a stash on hand. But as a recovering alcoholic it's not good for me. I know this, but it's a better alternative to hitting the bottle.


----------



## doobie (Apr 15, 2014)

bandit.45 said:


> I indulge occasionally. I have a stash on hand. But as a recovering alcoholic it's not good for me. I know this, but it's a better alternative to hitting the bottle.


Bandit - my Dad was an alcoholic (quite a severe one) and all of us kids bore the brunt of this, me more so as the oldest. What I will say is that I've seen alcohol ruin the lives of everybody around the alcoholic. Whereas with weed, I've seen loads of people who do loads of weed and have never seen it cause any of the problems that alcohol causes. My kids do weed now and again and, hand on heart, I can honestly say I would far rather they do weed than alcohol. If they did lots of alcohol, I would be seriously worried about them, whereas if they're doing weed, my mind's at rest. I have seen alcohol ruin so many lives, not just the alcoholic, but everybody around them.


----------



## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Night, I submit that most people, not just men, fail to communicate their feelings appropriately. How many times over the course of your marriage have you been inside your wife's body and slowed things down just to communicate how close you feel to her when you are inside of her? How often have you said, I feel like we are truly one right now? Or afterward, how many times did you grab her and pull her close to you and explain that while the sex was great, it was feeling so close to her, so in tuned with her, the kind of intimate connection that ONLY sex can bring, that made that moment so wonderful?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




FWIW, I have explained many times to my wife that sex makes me feel connected, and it is a meaningful connection I see. This husband has been saying things. It doesn't help. Maybe makes it worse at times, either because it is easier for her to view me as "needy", or because it makes it harder for her to evade her and my inner realities.





AnonPink, I don't think it is a gender thing. Some people seek intimacy and gain energy from it, and others don't or do the opposite.



I like to believe emotionally vulnerable and open and alive people from all genders exist, and somehow, somewhere, some manage to pair up and have fully engaged, life-giving, and pleasurable lives together.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Personally, I left it too late... I should have been firmer earlier on, maybe 10 years ago, when things were already on a decline... but I loved my wife and I love my children, so I didn't want to upset her and the kids too much. Unfortunately, I fed the beast...


----------



## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> yep... it's rather frustrating... all the advice seems to be based on the assumption that we are dealing with NormalPeople(tm)... and it doesn't work...
> 
> I was talking to my eldest daughter yesterday and she knows that "mother" doesn't show any emotions or doesn't really talk about what's going on in her head... it was sad and relieving at the same time... sad because this is what she is doing to them and relieving because it's not me going crazy...




Did you give your daughter any validation?



Imho, that is important to do. Fine line between validating and being what your daughter needs from her dad, vs. involving daughter too much on grown up things and being divisive. But, walking that line is our challenge.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

PieceOfSky said:


> Did you give your daughter any validation?


Yes... I told her it's been going on for years... we were talking about how her job impacts on her health and how I was unable to talk to her (my wife), because she takes everything personally...



> Imho, that is important to do. Fine line between validating and being what your daughter needs from her dad, vs. involving daughter too much on grown up things and being divisive. But, walking that line is our challenge.


My daughter is 22 and very intelligent... I'm pretty sure she knows how difficult her mother is. I don't think she'll find what I'm saying divisive. One day, I'll tell her the whole truth, in an "undivisive" way...


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> I have a big box of tissues...


Sounds like a calloused solution. Get lotion, too.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Married but Happy said:


> Sounds like a calloused solution. Get lotion, too.


First one already gone... only joking!


----------



## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

I understand the why and what of your plan. I did the same thing with my NotNormal husband after trying everything I could think of for far too many years. And, I agree that this plan is good for your own sanity. Like you, I stayed until my DD grew up.

From my experience (I moved out 4 months ago) I would advise you to prepare for the possibility that your wife will flip-the-fvck out when you do finally leave. My husband did, even though he knew my plan of action and the timeline if things did not change.

When I moved out, he became violently angry and then, after a week or so calmed down and decided that he wanted to have sex with me all the time. This after 25 years of 4 to 6 times per year sexual frequency with me begging for it. 

I think he just misses the maid service and home-cooked meals.


----------



## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Red Sonja said:


> I understand the why and what of your plan. I did the same thing with my NotNormal husband after trying everything I could think of for far too many years. And, I agree that this plan is good for your own sanity. Like you, I stayed until my DD grew up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




For those dealing with the NotNormal category, there is a book titled Splitting, subtitled something like Leaving [Divorcing?] Someone With Narcissistic Personality Disorder or Borderline Personality Disorder.





Red Sonja, it is good to hear someone choosing more for herself. Wishing you the best.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

PieceOfSky said:


> For those dealing with the NotNormal category, there is a book titled Splitting, subtitled something like Leaving [Divorcing?] Someone With Narcissistic Personality Disorder or Borderline Personality Disorder.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wouldn't say my wife has a "personality disorder" (apart from her OCD)... just that she is a bit bonkers...


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> I wouldn't say my wife has a "personality disorder" (apart from her OCD)... just that she is a bit bonkers...



Run thru the BPD or NPD list and see... OCD is a lot more benign.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

john117 said:


> Run thru the BPD or NPD list and see... OCD is a lot more benign.


stand corrected...


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It's relatively easy to tell the three apart.

OCD - very specific practical or fear based behaviors - perfection, hygiene, peculiar behaviors... 

NPD - more broad behavior issues focused on the person that may have the disorder. Selfish on steroids.

BPD - more broad than above and focused on other people. Lack of ability to regulate emotions.

Those are very very general terms but should not be too hard to tell apart.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

john117 said:


> It's relatively easy to tell the three apart.
> 
> OCD - very specific practical or fear based behaviors - perfection, hygiene, peculiar behaviors...
> 
> ...


ok, cheers... just got muddled up...


----------

