# Why does standing up for yourself feel so bad?



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

We had a conversation last night that was long overdue, and now I feel pretty ambivalent about having to do it.

After returning from vacation in Hawaii where we just didn't click at all and only had perfunctory sex twice in two weeks, I flat out said that I wasn't sure about our intimate future together. When asked if I was looking for a divorce, I said not currently, but that I had lost all hope that there was a reasonable compromise that we could reach on sex. She was frustrated that this would come at a time when she has actually tried harder than at any other time in our marriage, to which I could only reply that you can't confuse effort (there's been some) with success (there has been none) and that I appreciated the effort but it only underscores the unbridgeable gulf between us. 

When asked if I would rather keep the relationship alive and hope for change over the next decade or leave and try my luck on the open market, I could only answer honestly that for the first time in our 27 years together that the answer wasn't clear to me. 

So now we're in that awkward post-argument-stage when it's clear that feelings have been hurt but there's no salve to apply to lessen the sting. For the first time I think my wife understands the full extent of the problem. She hoped I would agree to MC, which I will, even though I had to point out that 10 years ago when I wanted to do this she resisted on the grounds that it might lead to the counselor telling us the best course of action was to part ways. 

Change is hard, and I'm not sure I've accomplished anything more than to pee in the sandbox for now. Am I really ready to toss my marriage over sex? Sure wish I knew the answer to that question.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

It feels so bad because you know you might be on the cusp of the decision to divorce. Which for me, was the most painful thing I ever went through, when all was said and done.

.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

You can be optimistic and hope this discussion will lead to change. 

I imagine when you have been with someone for 27 years its very scary to contemplate a future without them in it. Perhaps its not a question of whether the marriage is worth continuing as - is as much as it the devil you know vs the one you don't know. 

In any case I don't think you are wrong for sticking up for yourself and I don't think its wrong to want more in life. The scope of your sexual experience in this life is in her hands alone right now.


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## TheStranger (Jan 14, 2013)

For years and years your wife dictated your sex life; the variety, the quality and the frequency and you accepted that for the greater good.

I think it's a good thing to finally stand up for yourself and have your voice heard clearly. I hope it will lead you to a positive change eventually within your marriage or without.

I'm just curious, do you think MC can change anything at all? I think your wife knows why you're unhappy. This problem isn't really a communication issue.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

TheStranger said:


> I'm just curious, do you think MC can change anything at all? I think your wife knows why you're unhappy. This problem isn't really a communication issue.


No, no hope whatsoever. 

I'm utterly and completely defeatist about the chances of fixing a sexually mismatched relationship. But if I've been willing to put this much into a relationship, I should be willing to put at least a last ditch effort into not ending it. Who knows? Maybe I'll really find out that I'm most of the problem, even if I don't believe that today.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LanieB said:


> At least you're not floundering around in ambiguity anymore. It's time your wife knew EXACTLY how important sex is to you. If you hadn't told her how you really feel and how serious this is to you, nothing would ever change. You would be living like this the rest of your life. You're much more likely to have a positive outcome by pushing the issue, rather than NOT.


We'll see. I may have traded in a mediocre sex life for none at all, but I guess that's just the risk you take with change of this size. I can't imagine I'll have willing partners banging my door down ever again if I wind up single.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Most people I know who are divorced do just fine. That is a long way off...a lot of hurdles to get over before then.

.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

I"m so sorry, Cletus.

The comment "try for 10 years"... did she ask you if you were willing to try for 10 years or give up?

Why 10 years? That stuck in my brain.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

LanieB said:


> At least you're not floundering around in ambiguity anymore. It's time your wife knew EXACTLY how important sex is to you. If you hadn't told her how you really feel and how serious this is to you, nothing would ever change. You would be living like this the rest of your life. You're much more likely to have a positive outcome by pushing the issue, rather than NOT.
> 
> I just posted in another thread about how much I've learned about marriage and sex issues here on TAM. My husband and I don't have any issues with sex, but I know so many couples do. If only these people who aren't having sex with their partners would come here and read this particular forum, they might begin to understand what they're doing to their marriages. I really think that women, in particular, have no idea how important sex really is to a man - how it makes him feel loved.


I agree--I think LD partners sometimes do not understand the pain and isolation their partners are feeling. They hear what their spouse is saying, but they are not getting it because they have become so accustomed to the fight. 

I found this forum by accident and it probably saved my marriage. I literally starting having sex with my husband DAILY (up from 2x a month) the very day I came here and read posts by men who were going through what my husband was going through. It made all the difference to me to hear it from someone other than my husband, from men who I didn't have any connection with and who were reaching out to perfect strangers for help. 

I really, really wish more frustrated HD folks who post here would ask their partners to spend a few hours reading around on these threads. I know it's not a magic bullet, but it might be just the thing for some, like it was for me.


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## ginger-snap (Apr 10, 2013)

> I really, really wish more frustrated HD folks who post here would ask their partners to spend a few hours reading around on these threads. I know it's not a magic bullet, but it might be just the thing for some, like it was for me.


I think some may feel that if the LD/withholding spouse doesn't find it on their own, it will just be another bunch of words that get brushed aside and ignored with everything else. But, maybe not...


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## anonim (Apr 24, 2012)

It feels bad because you should have done this 10 years ago.



Cletus said:


> We'll see. I may have traded in a mediocre sex life for none at all, but I guess that's just the risk you take with change of this size. I can't imagine I'll have willing partners banging my door down ever again if I wind up single.


maybe, maybe not, but what you WONT have is crushing despair, loneliness, the feeling of being unwanted and a partner who has no value of your feelings. Those are worth trading for.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> I agree--I think LD partners sometimes do not understand the pain and isolation their partners are feeling. They hear what their spouse is saying, but they are not getting it because *they have become so accustomed to the fight*...


..and knowing that most of the time they will win any arguments and any fights by simply withholding sex even more as threats of punishment? 



> I found this forum by accident and it probably saved my marriage. I literally starting having sex with my husband DAILY (up from 2x a month) the very day I came here and read posts by men who were going through what my husband was going through. It made all the difference to me to hear it from someone other than my husband, from men who I didn't have any connection with and who were reaching out to perfect strangers for help.


Yes. As strange as it may seems, maybe it goes like this: when the husbands are saying it, the LD wives automatically brushed off those words as having no consequences, because they're accustomed on winning any arguments simply by withholding more.



> I really, really wish more frustrated HD folks who post here would ask their partners to spend a few hours reading around on these threads. I know it's not a magic bullet, but it might be just the thing for some, like it was for me.


If they read your posts, Mrs. GettingIt, and comes into the same realization that you do, they might.

But, think about this... if LD spouses comes here, and read all those defenses by TAM members on behalf of the LDs, it may even get worse, as they will use those defenses to their advantage. Especially when they know that their non-LD partner are not willing to divorce, or will be financially devastated by a divorce.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Cletus said:


> No, no hope whatsoever.
> 
> I'm utterly and completely defeatist about the chances of fixing a sexually mismatched relationship. But if I've been willing to put this much into a relationship, I should be willing to put at least a last ditch effort into not ending it. Who knows? Maybe I'll really find out that I'm most of the problem, even if I don't believe that today.


So sorry to hear about this Mr. Cletus


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

There was a poster here that made it clear he would never accept a sexless marriage to his wife who was LD...he gave her a choice...either she was in this marriage and would satisfy his needs or he was seeking a partner outside the marriage...as this is not something he would live with...and she could take it upon herself to end the marriage...allowing her to pull that switch ... but he would not lie to her. 

Boy did he take alot of heat for that.. frankly I didn't think it was all that damn bad.. he was Honest..how few are & fall into EA's and PA's... The man laid out his needs and what is not, nor will ever be- acceptable for him in a healthy marriage. She could either accommodate him for the betterment of the marriage/love for her husband....or those were the consequences. 

If/when she had a headache, too tired, in good faith she would give a rain check for the next day / very near future...and honor it ... And *attitude *here is vitally important as well. 

Just another perspective... I don't feel you should feel a bit bad / sorry about how you feel.. it's Freaking 20 plus years [email protected]#$% We only get 1 life to live... I feel you deserve the greatest of Happiness in this one... with her or without her. 

Again, that's her CHOICE...given her response.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

ginger-snap said:


> I think some may feel that if the LD/withholding spouse doesn't find it on their own, it will just be another bunch of words that get brushed aside and ignored with everything else. But, maybe not...





john_lord_b3 said:


> ..and knowing that most of the time they will win any arguments and any fights by simply withholding sex even more as threats of punishment?
> 
> Yes. As strange as it may seems, maybe it goes like this: when the husbands are saying it, the LD wives automatically brushed off those words as having no consequences, because they're accustomed on winning any arguments simply by withholding more.
> 
> ...


I've said it before and I will say it again: not all "LD" situations are created equal. I don't mean to imply that all LD spouses will see the light by reading around on these threads, but I'm not convinced it's a huge risk, either. For the HD spouses that claim their relationships are fine except for the LD/HD split, what is there to lose? Things get better or they don't. 

My relationship is NOT perfect, and this forum helped me understand my husband's plight in a way he could not. Are thier LD wives who are perfectly happy with the way things are--sure. I wasn't one of them precisely *because my husband consistently did what Cletus is doing: he expressed his dissatisfaction to me clearly, calmly, and often.* It was not comfortable living with him. He never threatened divorce, but the atmosphere around here sucked. 

HD posters often point out that the LD spouse has to WANT to change. I agree wholeheartedly. I went looking for help. I don't know how things might have been different if my husband had pointed me here--I guess it would have depended on the context. But it was the *information from a wider community of people with problems like we were having* that made the difference for me. I felt like I wasn't alone. I felt like I had fresh perspectives and fresh ideas and new ways to think about my role in the marriage. 

If you already feel like your marriage is poisoned beyond redemption, then I can see how you'd be cynical about my advice to introduce your LD spouse to TAM. But I'm operating under the assumption that there are others out there like me who might benefit from my experience. Others who might not be registered or posting--I know I just floated around TAM for a few weeks before diving in and registering. If you regard the information on TAM as a "risk" then by all means, keep it to yourself. But really, how much do most of you have to lose if divorce is already on the table?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Some of us have tried the calm, polite, etc discussion approach but it got us nowhere for a variety of reasons.

I really did not need to read TAM to figure out how widespread sexual mismatch is, or how intimacy is an excellent weapon if used - or not - well. Lots of my neighbors are divorced and it does not take a PhD in rocket science to put two and two together.

As the token dad in two kids worth of PTA meetings over nearly 20 years I can tell you the symptoms of LD were quite obvious even in a controlled environment like PTA. You would see very distinct patterns on behavior, appearance, and so on by school year, literally. As someone raised overseas I was blown away by how obvious the patterns were. 

The question is whether they do something about it or whether they recognize it as a problem at all.... From my experience the divorce rate should be much higher than where it is right now... It's all about lack of communication really...


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> I really, really wish more frustrated HD folks who post here would ask their partners to spend a few hours reading around on these threads. I know it's not a magic bullet, but it might be just the thing for some, like it was for me.


Would the LD spouse view it that way, or as just an extension of the fight? That is, be directing the LD here, I can see the LD blowing the site as a whole off as being chosen by the HD because it fit the argument.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Would the LD spouse view it that way, or as just an extension of the fight? That is, be directing the LD here, I can see the LD blowing the site as a whole off as being chosen by the HD because it fit the argument.


I expect the latter for me at least. 

I'm pretty sure that the frank sex talk would be a huge turnoff for her too. When I hauled out my copy of "The Guide to Getting it On" as part of this discussion the other night, you could see the panic and queasy feeling as she thumbed through the pages and an illustration or two caught her eyes.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I have a guy friend who was in a sexless marriage. He read The Sex-starved Marriage and then asked his wife to read it. He said when she read the part "to the LD partner" that explained to the partner how deeply their HD partner was hurting, she broke down and cried and said she now understood where he was coming from.

They then entered sex therapy together and kept up with it for a number of years.

The frequency and quality of sex did improve...but not as much as my friend wanted, so he kept pushing for more improvement (his wife was basically "not letting him in" to her private intimate life, and she would not join him in his, either...the sex was physical but not intimate and intimacy was what he wanted).

This went on for a number of years. He finally gave up and stopped trying and issued an ultimatum of sorts. She did nothing.

They got divorced. 

He was battered down a bit and has some physical challenges that made him worry about his future prospects with women.

But he put himself back out there, and within 6 months of dating, met a lovely, sexually compatible woman who adores him.

Just throwing out this story because sometimes you can do everything right, make some progress, but it still isn't enough (and he now understands his ex-wife simply isn't capable of real intimacy, so it was never going to happen no matter what he did). Yet there can still be a happy ending sometimes, too.

.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Would the LD spouse view it that way, or as just an extension of the fight? That is, be directing the LD here, I can see the LD blowing the site as a whole off as being chosen by the HD because it fit the argument.


The answer to your question is "it depends." 

In my case, I'd been battling my LD the ways that I knew how/could figure out for years. TAM was the nail in the coffin for my LD (I don't think it can be understated here that I was formerly quite HD and had become LD after we became parents.)

If you would have asked my husband if information on TAM would have helped, I think he would have had misgivings the same as many here have expressed. 

HD spouses have to ask themselves "what do I have to lose?" Not all HD spouses might be willing to escalate the "fight." If you are afraid that your spouse might find "LD ammunition" on TAL, then I would say you aren't yet ready to go "all in" on communicating your needs and staking a claim to sex in your marriage. I was LD for ten years, and I am telling you: it was my husband's staying power in NOT BACKING DOWN on what he wanted and needed from this marriage that resulted in my getting my groove back on. 

I agree that HOW to introduce one's spouse to these threads can be sticky. There is also the issue of the LD spouse reading posts from the HD spouse that might reflect more frustration and venting than the HD spouse is comfortable sharing. 

Anyway, I know there are many, many "yeah, but . . . " types of arguments for roadblocking my suggestion. But if anyone out there feels up to the "challenge," I'd love to know how it turns out. 

FWIW, here is where I landed on TAM when I googled "how do I make myself want sex." 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/58877-how-do-i-make-myself-want-sex.html

From there I landed on a thread with a lot of HD men sort of venting and supporting one another (which seems to have been deleted, but there are many others like it). Their vents did not turn me off at all--I saw my husband in them and it broke my heart. And I have not seen many "defenses" from LD partners that I saw as relevant to my situation. I mean, many LD partners have expressed how it feels to be LD, but I've seen not many from those who coldly withhold and expect their HD partners to deal.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Cletus said:


> I expect the latter for me at least.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that the frank sex talk would be a huge turnoff for her too. When I hauled out my copy of "The Guide to Getting it On" as part of this discussion the other night, you could see the panic and queasy feeling as she thumbed through the pages and an illustration or two caught her eyes.


I'm sorry Cletus. I felt panic every time my husband brought it up too. I know it's no solace, but it was stories like yours that made a difference to me when I first found TAM.

Was your wife ever higher drive? Are you trying to get back something that was lost over the years, or develop something that has always been missing?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

GettingIt said:


> I'm sorry Cletus. I felt panic every time my husband brought it up too. I know it's no solace, but it was stories like yours that made a difference to me when I first found TAM.
> 
> Was your wife ever higher drive? Are you trying to get back something that was lost over the years, or develop something that has always been missing?


It was never there. It is not within her to be comfortable with anything other than vanilla PIV sex. At 50, I understand that she is not likely to develop that comfort either. Hence my fatalism.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> HD posters often point out that the LD spouse has to WANT to change. I agree wholeheartedly. I went looking for help. I don't know how things might have been different if my husband had pointed me here--I guess it would have depended on the context. But it was the *information from a wider community of people with problems like we were having* that made the difference for me. I felt like I wasn't alone. I felt like I had fresh perspectives and fresh ideas and new ways to think about my role in the marriage...


Ah, if presented this way, as a community support, then yes I could understand the logic. 

I have been thinking, if shown _TAM_ without given directions, yes, the LD spouse might gravitate towards looking for justification for withholding. But if given directions "Try this specific thread", for example our Success Stories thread, then maybe the result will be more mutually satisfying.



> If you already feel like your marriage is poisoned beyond redemption, then I can see how you'd be cynical about my advice to introduce your LD spouse to TAM. But I'm operating under the assumption that there are others out there like me who might benefit from my experience. Others who might not be registered or posting--I know I just floated around TAM for a few weeks before diving in and registering. If you regard the information on TAM as a "risk" then by all means, keep it to yourself. But really, how much do most of you have to lose if divorce is already on the table?


:iagree: Indeed. Knowing that Mr. Cletus has already reach a point where even he is not so sure anymore whether he wants to continue living like this or not, I think yes, he has nothing to lose to show Mrs. Cletus the TAM, especially our Success Stories thread.

Mr. Cletus, I think this advice worth serious consideration.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> FWIW, here is where I landed on TAM when I googled "how do I make myself want sex."
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/58877-how-do-i-make-myself-want-sex.html
> 
> From there I landed on a thread with a lot of HD men sort of venting and supporting one another (which seems to have been deleted, but there are many others like it). *Their vents did not turn me off at all--I saw my husband in them and it broke my heart. *


because you really love your husband, Mrs. GettingIt. :smthumbup: It's the love that finds the way for you to change your ways. And besides you're not a true cold cruel LD. Proof being, even you weren't happy with the status quo.



> And I have not seen many "defenses" from LD partners that I saw as relevant to my situation. I mean, many LD partners have expressed how it feels to be LD, but I've seen not many from those who coldly withhold and expect their HD partners to deal.


I believe this is because true "cold" LD partners doesn't see it as a problem to withhold sex and use it as a weapon, and thus does not feel the need to turn to TAM for help and support.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Cletus said:


> It was never there. It is not within her to be comfortable with anything other than vanilla PIV sex. At 50, I understand that she is not likely to develop that comfort either. Hence my fatalism.


I don't blame you for the fatalism. Her "LD" situation is different from mine. 

Still, I wonder at how much she truly comprehends your plight, even after 27 years. I know from experience how communication even in very long term relationships can fail. What do YOU think would happen if you gave her the TAM url and asked her to spend two weeks reading around on it? I mean really dedicating some time to it? She might find a community--like I did--that helps her understand herself and her marriage in a new light. I'm not saying it would solve your problems with intimacy, but it might end up helping HER. Which could help your marriage.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

I sometimes think there is much more underground support for LD wives than one realises. It's almost socially acceptable. The norm. 

How does one argue with that?


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## Lordhavok (Mar 14, 2012)

Sorry cletus, I've been reading your posts for over a year now. I've been where you are and I commend you for staying and trying as long as you have. I bailed after 15 years on my first marriage, for this very reason, so I got nothing to help you out with bro. Most people would have split by now.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

deejov said:


> I sometimes think there is much more underground support for LD wives than one realises. It's almost socially acceptable. The norm.
> 
> How does one argue with that?


Mr. Deejov,

Could you please elaborate? This is very interesting to hear. So withholding sex is socially acceptable? I am not debating you, I truly want to know more.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

deejov said:


> I sometimes think there is much more underground support for LD wives than one realises. It's almost socially acceptable. The norm.
> 
> How does one argue with that?


There is. It's called the Lifetime Movie Network . Or TV in general. Or society and culture in general that at the same time make sex appear as common and activity as swimming while vilifying it. 

Think how our culture has elevated food , sports, and the Kardashians... All while setting impossible expectations from us. Start with prom night, $50k weddings, elaborate dates, and so on, make the simple act of sex for the fun of it between committed adults something straight out of a perverse sci-fi book, and pretty much it's a miracle anyone ever gets laid past the age of 30 any more.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

It's Mrs. I'm a sexless wife. I'm HD, he's ND.
It's on tv. It's joked about all the time. 
It's the common story. When you get married... she stops having sex, or giving BJ's. Almost taken as "accepted" behavior. Being that it is more the norm. Wives turn into mothers. We all "understand" that it's normal to be too busy, tired, etc. 

You don't think it's common?

It is still a social stigma to be known as a HD woman. Various nouns come to mind. Generally. Some women are proud of their sexuality. (I am). 

You have to think outside TAM. Your circle of friends. TAMers are educated.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> :iagree: Indeed. Knowing that Mr. Cletus has already reach a point where even he is not so sure anymore whether he wants to continue living like this or not, I think yes, he has nothing to lose to show Mrs. Cletus the TAM, especially our Success Stories thread.
> 
> Mr. Cletus, I think this advice worth serious consideration.


As you say, what's to lose at this point? I think I'll wait for a MC session or two before I chart any overt action at this point, but I would love to have the support that simply comes from not looking like some sort of perverted solo freak show to my spouse.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Mr. Deejov,
> 
> Could you please elaborate? This is very interesting to hear. So withholding sex is socially acceptable? I am not debating you, I truly want to know more.


It's even socially acceptable for an "LD" to withhold and have sex with someone else. Maybe she doesn't "want" to have sex with her husband.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

deejov said:


> It's Mrs. I'm a sexless wife. I'm HD, he's ND.
> It's on tv. It's joked about all the time.
> It's the common story. When you get married... she stops having sex, or giving BJ's. Almost taken as "accepted" behavior. Being that it is more the norm. Wives turn into mothers. We all "understand" that it's normal to be too busy, tired, etc.
> 
> ...


I don't see how being an HD woman who isn't banging every "opportunity" that exists around her is a bad thing. It may be an HD who is honest and forthright and doesn't cheat and doesn't have a million sexual partners, she likes staying loyal.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

GettingIt said:


> I don't blame you for the fatalism. Her "LD" situation is different from mine.
> 
> Still, I wonder at how much she truly comprehends your plight, even after 27 years. I know from experience how communication even in very long term relationships can fail. What do YOU think would happen if you gave her the TAM url and asked her to spend two weeks reading around on it? I mean really dedicating some time to it? She might find a community--like I did--that helps her understand herself and her marriage in a new light. I'm not saying it would solve your problems with intimacy, but it might end up helping HER. Which could help your marriage.


If the past is any predictor of the future, she would identify with the LD posters here and latch on to their predicament. 

Which is in fact exactly what she should probably do. I've gotten past "you're broken and should get fixed" to "we're broken and probably can't be fixed".

The best I could hope for at this point is some understanding on her part what my sacrifices have been in a relationship where she feels that she's done all of the hard work, sexually speaking. That at least opens the door for the sliver of possibility to change or more acceptance of the necessity of other options.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Lordhavok said:


> Sorry cletus, I've been reading your posts for over a year now. I've been where you are and I commend you for staying and trying as long as you have. I bailed after 15 years on my first marriage, for this very reason, so I got nothing to help you out with bro. Most people would have split by now.


Thanks. 

One of the things about this place that I've found hard is the support. I tend to the objective side of most questions - I don't need sympathy, I need the TRUTH! One of my reasons for coming here was to see if I was the one who needed to suck it up and change my behavior - if I was too far from the norm to be complaining about my spouse. That information is hard to come by when people are patting you on the back for comfort instead of smacking you between the eyes with a dose of cold, hard reality.

I have a spouse with a lack of adventure and low libido, but I don't have a mean spouse. She may not understand everything about how I feel, and likely never will, but she's also never weaponized sex the way some here have seen. I guess I just don't feel fully justified in making this a deal breaker, even though intellectually I know there's nothing wrong with making that choice and I regularly tell others the same. 

Your own medicine just doesn't taste very good some days.


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## ginger-snap (Apr 10, 2013)

deejov said:


> It's Mrs. I'm a sexless wife. I'm HD, he's ND.
> It's on tv. It's joked about all the time.
> It's the common story. When you get married... she stops having sex, or giving BJ's. Almost taken as "accepted" behavior. Being that it is more the norm. Wives turn into mothers. We all "understand" that it's normal to be too busy, tired, etc.
> 
> ...


I feel the same way. You see it in the threads posted by wives who wonder why their husbands have no desire; these threads often have fewer responses than the reverse situation. HD men can't fathom LD men. HD women in don't know how to fix it either as they are in the same boat or have left the boat entirely (i.e., divorced). Or other women post with criticism saying sex isn't a reason to leave or that you might as well stay because what man would want you with kids and baggage like that. There are countless posts by angry (rightfully so) sex-starved husbands that generalize LD solely as a women's problem/fault. And when you try to argue that not all women are like that, you get called a liar or a fake, that you can't possibly be HD; it's all in your head. It's extremely disheartening sometimes.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Cletus said:


> Thanks.
> 
> One of the things about this place that I've found hard is the support. I tend to the objective side of most questions - I don't need sympathy, I need the TRUTH! One of my reasons for coming here was to see if I was the one who needed to suck it up and change my behavior - if I was too far from the norm to be complaining about my spouse. That information is hard to come by when people are patting you on the back for comfort instead of smacking you between the eyes with a dose of cold, hard reality.
> 
> ...


I can empathsize with how you feel (making it a dealbreaker).
I struggled with this for a long time. I can only share what I ended up doing, which was admitting, for me, it was not a lack of sex that was my real dealbreaker.

For me, it was that I am a passionate, affectionate person. Denying me intimacy was denying me to GIVE love. It wasn't what I wasn't getting... it was that what I was GIVING was being refused. Throwing eggs at a closed door.

One thing that helped me with talking to my spouse about how I felt about it:
- I wrote down my emotional needs 
- I expressed my belief that to me, being married meant I was not supposed to go outside the marriage to get those needs met

But this time, I am also in a place to be able to say that I don't NEED the list of emotional needs to FEEL loved or wanted. It is purely a respect thing. 

It is his JOB as my husband to try and meet those needs. Because I'm not allowed to go anywhere else to get those things. 

I made it clear that it isn't a daily test. It's a boundary when the needs go unmet for a long period of time, and there is no effort to work on it. He's free to make his own decisions. He can try to work on it, or hide his head in the sand. Free will. 

He got the JOB part of it, and the 'free will'. It's what made him understand. I was not offering an ultimatium. I was stating the TRUTH. 

The truth was... since he was \ is not able to be vulnerable with me to a level of intimacy that is shared only within marriage, then I would be wrong to continue to invest MY emotional love in someone who did not want to \ could not return it. That reeks of low self esteem. That is no longer me 

Long story short... the end result is that he is left with his own decision to make. It's his life. He either wants to be real, and vulnerable, or he can run from the reasons that make him emotionally unavailable. Either way, I will be fine. I am not waiting around for many years for that to happen. I'm busy enjoying my new found sense of freedom. I'm free to live my life too! My happiness is not dependent on whether or not he loves me back. It's wonderful.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Cletus said:


> I have a spouse with a lack of adventure and low libido, but I don't have a mean spouse. She may not understand everything about how I feel, and likely never will, but she's also never weaponized sex the way some here have seen. I guess I just don't feel fully justified in making this a deal breaker, even though intellectually I know there's nothing wrong with making that choice and I regularly tell others the same.


I would not be so sure about the weapons-grade part. What does she get by not playing along? 

Remember Dr. John's determination here: evil or stupid. I theorize LD's are one or the other - or both. Stupid as in, do not see the impact of their choices and Evil as in, they see, and don't care. It could be both, of course. With a percentage each.

In my case the lovely Dr. Mrs. LD is about 70% Evil, 30% Stupid. 

Note that the two terms are used with liberal literary license. We're not talking Darth Vader evil nor are we talking Forrest Gump stupid. It just sounds right.

Answer the question for your own situation and that should tell you whether it's fixable or not.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

john117 said:


> I would not be so sure about the weapons-grade part. What does she get by not playing along?
> 
> Remember Dr. John's determination here: evil or stupid. I theorize LD's are one or the other - or both. Stupid as in, do not see the impact of their choices and Evil as in, they see, and don't care. It could be both, of course. With a percentage each.


For the sake of cognitive consonance, I prefer to believe that there is a third category - those who don't like broccoli. 

You can cover it in cheese sauce, roast it, boil it, hide it in a souffle or an omelette, and do all manner of things to make it less objectionable, but I will just never be enthralled by the stuff. I will periodically eat it, once in a great while take seconds, but I will never beg you to include it in my dinner.

My wife is in this category. Strike that - anything other than PIV sex is her analogue to Brussel sprouts for me, which actually activate my gag reflex. She likes sex - once a week, for about 20 minutes, in the same position and with the same straight-jacket limitations. That's her steak and potatoes. Leave those damned greens off the plate, thank you very much.

If you could see the primal fear in her eyes when she is exposed to something sexually explicit, even something as tame as "The Joy of Sex", you'd understand.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Cletus said:


> If you could see the primal fear in her eyes when she is exposed to something sexually explicit, even something as tame as "The Joy of Sex", you'd understand.


And yet she insists she is normal? that is not normal, that is sexually repressed. Cletus, that is not going to change except in the event of these three things.

1. You tell her she is sexually repressed and it leaves you feeling.....

And

2. Unless she agrees to vigorously pursue a more sexually explorative perception about sex, you plan to leave.

And

3. She follows through and you see the results in the bedroom.

Are you wrong for wanting a sex life that is healthy and normal? HELL NO!

Is she wrong for expecting you to happy and content with a restrictive and unvaried sex life you whole life? HELL YES!

I'm married to an emotionally unavailable man, tired of trying to make this work, get my needs met so I'm giving him the summer to figure it out on his own. He can do therapy, he can do whatever the hell he wants. But come September, he's either fully involved in this marriage every god damned day or it is over.

Being the bad guy sucks, but there is no other way to affect a change.

Good luck Cletus!


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> And yet she insists she is normal? that is not normal, that is sexually repressed. Cletus, that is not going to change except in the event of these three things.
> 
> 1. You tell her she is sexually repressed and it leaves you feeling.....
> 
> ...


 :iagree:

Sir Cletus, the Pink Lady has spoken, and she speaks the truth! Heed her advice, as she speaks from experience!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

That would be covered under "ignorance". Ignorance by itself is OK, but ignorance when it impacts the overall family life is not. it is one thing to drive 30 above the speed limit in an open and deserted freeway and claim ignorance, quite another to do it downtown.

Ignorance is a symptom, and has root causes, and by following the root causes we can better understand the E or S components.

Someone brought up in a puritan, conservative, or similar background while refusing to see todays reality would be an easy S. someone who sees it and fears it an S with a little bit of E (for willingly sticking to their ideas) and so on...

Ultimately this taxonomy could allow one to find the fundamental reasons and determine if it is fixable. Just a guess. If there is no interest in fixing it there is no point arguing whether it is E or S I guess.


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