# A Question for the BS - did your WS ever truly get it?



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Post dday the BS deals with the trauma. The effect linger for a long time - perhaps a lifetime. Sometimes unexpected triggers, songs or movies that they can't listen to or watch any more. Does your WS get what they have done? Truly? For example can they watch a tv show on infidelity and not be bothered? A WS can talk about how they "see the destruction they have caused" but do they really get it? Feel it? Or are they just spectators saying the right things? I'm curious about your responses to this question.


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## I shouldnthave (Apr 11, 2018)

I have been in both sides of the coin. First as a BS, and later a WS. 

Did my WS get it? Hum, I think for me, as a betrayed spouse, I was a bit different. First, I tend to be quite stoic, and I do not get very emotional in trying times. I insisted we attack the problem logically, head on, therapy, etc. 

Do I remember being very upset when s*** first hit the fan? Yes! But I do not recall being affected by triggers. Sure, I was a super sleuth for a while, checking his phone etc. But I could watch a movie that involved infidelity without flinching. Today, 7 years later, I can't say I have any triggers, or mistrust. 

Now, I am the most recent cheat - Do I get it? I think I do. I am very aware of his triggers, I try to avoid them, but deal with them when they can't be avoided. I feel SO TERRIBLE that he has them. That he feels anxiety over trivial matters for what I have done. 

My life is different now, and so is his. I try to be very aware of my actions. I check in constantly, where I am, where I am going, how long I will be. Its been 2 years now, and its still a multiple times a day thing. And yes, if there is a mention of infidelity - I feel myself start burning up, I feel bad. I know it hurts him, if he wants to talk about it we can, if he doesn't we won't. I let him call the shots. 

We had a big trigger event just last week. I rarely stay late at work, and never do on Friday nights. But once upon a time I used that excuse once for my bulls***.

I had to stay late at work, on a Friday no less - big boss was in town. I told him I would be late, but wasn't able to check in as much as I hoped as the evening wore on. It was stressing me out, I felt really really bad I was there... because I KNEW he would be triggered, I knew he was at home stressing out. 

And sure enough he was. When I got home he tried to act normal - but I could tell he was seething. I tried to put him at ease. Not by saying "nothing happened" but by telling him all about the night, took a selfie of us to show the group I was with, heck, he picked me up at my female coworker's house and of course the "story" held true. 

But still, he was deeply triggered. He started accusing me of things, and all I could do was show him the proofs otherwise. To tell him I am SO SORRY that he is feeling this way. That I HATE that I make him feel this way, and its my fault, period. 

In the end, he was able to believe me, to see the proofs..... and then he was apologizing, saying his anxiety got the best of him, and I need to be able to live my life sometimes without him stressing out.

But I disagreed - I told him over and over not to apologize. Its MY FAULT. Its MY FAULT he has triggers, its my fault he gets anxiety about this, and I do not need any apologies. That I am the one who is very sorry, and I am the one who needs to make right. 

Its not his fault he has triggers and anxiety, and I am so sorry he has to deal with them. I try to heal the wound, but I know it will be very slow to close. Unfortunately its a price we both pay. If I could take away all of his pain, and make it my own, I would in a second. 

Its kinda like when you see a kid hurting, and you wish you could take it on yourself, make it your own so that they don't have to suffer through it - That is how I feel when I see him hurting.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

@I shouldnthave - so your H cheated first and then you cheated 7 years later? I do not want to misunderstand.


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## I shouldnthave (Apr 11, 2018)

Yep, he cheated, and then years later I did.

Not to make light of any of it, but his was a very short term fling, mine was... also a short term thing. We both "cheated" but I wouldn't be call them affairs. 

I hear stories of people falling in love with others. Or carrying on double lives for years etc. Our situation did not include any of that.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I shouldnthave said:


> Yep, he cheated, and then years later I did.
> 
> Not to make light of any of it, but his was a very short term fling, mine was... also a short term thing. We both "cheated" but I wouldn't be call them affairs.
> 
> I hear stories of people falling in love with others. Or carrying on double lives for years etc. Our situation did not include any of that.


Do you wish your thing (or his thing) didn't happen? Or was it a valuable experience, all in all?
I am just curious (and nosey).


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

For most people, we will never know. I don't talk with my XWW about anything except for the kids.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

I shouldnthave said:


> Yep, he cheated, and then years later I did.
> 
> Not to make light of any of it, but his was a very short term fling, mine was... also a short term thing. We both "cheated" but I wouldn't be call them affairs.
> 
> I hear stories of people falling in love with others. Or carrying on double lives for years etc. Our situation did not include any of that.


I guess my question is - since you were BOTH betrayed and wayward - did you and your H understand the other perspective better? As opposed to a WS saying how they "get it" or "see what they have done" but never were betrayed themselves tby their spouse. I have my doubts waywards ever fully get it if they were not cheated on.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Bananapeel said:


> For most people, we will never know. I don't talk with my XWW about anything except for the kids.


That makes sense. I dont think most WSs get it or care to - they want to move on and rug sweep in most cases IMO. Even those in R can be show empathy but they dont get it on a very basic level. Like the example I gave - cheater not being effected by entertainment like the BS might be.


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## Silver92 (Oct 28, 2016)

I am a BH, wife had a one year affair with a coworker. Yes I do have triggers that really gets to me by times. My spouse is aware of some but not everything. It really upsets her when she knows I'm bothered by it but there is nothing she can do. She knows she can't take back what she did and it bothers her everyday because I don't look at her in eyes like I did before the affair. I don't feel bad for her one little bit and she doesnt expect me to feel bad for her. I do love her and she loves me but the damage that's done from an affair last forever, no one can tell me otherwise. We are trying to make it work and it's going pretty good but them triggers will always be there for me. Its little things, like a certain song or when I have to drive by a place I know they would meet at...etc!


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Silver92 said:


> I am a BH, wife had a one year affair with a coworker. Yes I do have triggers that really gets to me by times. My spouse is aware of some but not everything. It really upsets her when she knows I'm bothered by it but there is nothing she can do. She knows she can't take back what she did and it bothers her everyday because I don't look at her in eyes like I did before the affair. I don't feel bad for her one little bit and she doesnt expect me to feel bad for her. I do love her and she loves me but the damage that's done from an affair last forever, no one can tell me otherwise. We are trying to make it work and it's going pretty good but them triggers will always be there for me. Its little things, like a certain song or when I have to drive by a place I know they would meet at...etc!


She "feels bad" but she doesnt truly get to experience 100% of your pain or anguish. Why isnt she aware of everything? Do you try to protect her? If so dont do that. She made this mess. Did she do any work on herself after her A? Does she trigger or get upset from songs or tv shows?


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## Silver92 (Oct 28, 2016)

One other really big trigger is when I see the OM. I know my blood pressure goes wild Lol!! I'm normally bothered for hours after I see him. Main reason is because I want to smash his face in so bad but everyone tells that's not a good idea Lol!!


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Silver92 said:


> One other really big trigger is when I see the OM. I know my blood pressure goes wild Lol!! I'm normally bothered for hours after I see him. Main reason is because I want to smash his face in so bad but everyone tells that's not a good idea Lol!!


I still dont see what your wife is doing to earn back your trust. 1 year is a long time to have an A.


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## Silver92 (Oct 28, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Silver92 said:
> 
> 
> > I am a BH, wife had a one year affair with a coworker. Yes I do have triggers that really gets to me by times. My spouse is aware of some but not everything. It really upsets her when she knows I'm bothered by it but there is nothing she can do. She knows she can't take back what she did and it bothers her everyday because I don't look at her in eyes like I did before the affair. I don't feel bad for her one little bit and she doesnt expect me to feel bad for her. I do love her and she loves me but the damage that's done from an affair last forever, no one can tell me otherwise. We are trying to make it work and it's going pretty good but them triggers will always be there for me. Its little things, like a certain song or when I have to drive by a place I know they would meet at...etc!
> ...


Yes I do hide some of it. I think the main reason is that I'm not sure if will make maters better or worse. Sometimes it's just because we are having a good day and I don't want to ruin it.


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## I shouldnthave (Apr 11, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Do you wish your thing (or his thing) didn't happen? Or was it a valuable experience, all in all?
> I am just curious (and nosey).


Honestly? (and hey, aren't we all curious and nosey? Why else would we be here?)

I wish I didn't take it so far. I wish I didn't cause so much damage. 

It was most certainly a valuable experience. I don't think our relationship would be where it is today unless we had been through this. Yes, where it is today still has triggers still has scars....

But we got so real. We got more honest, more vulnerable, more understanding than I think we would have achieved otherwise. 

We got to a point where it seemed like perhaps all was lost, so might as well put it all out there, like the lyric goes "Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose". 

We were free to talk about our demons. Free to be real in a way that was scary. Usually people hold back for fear of scaring someone away, fear that they wouldn't be loved any more if they revealed all of themselves. We were beyond that. We were able to put all the cards on the table. 

And through the process gained a greater understanding, and a deeper love for each other. 

I am not trying to be a braggart, but often, from family, to friends, to perfect strangers - people point out how in love we are. 

Its only after we have been through this.... that we have had people say how palatable our love for each other is. A group of women came up at a concert and said that they were "celebrating our love" because it was beautiful. 

And sometimes I think.... oh, only if you knew, if you knew what I had done, what we have been through.

If we could get to this place, without having been such selfish d***ks to each other, yeah, sure, I would choose that. But I am not sure if we would have ever gotten to this place without over coming the obstacles that we did.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Silver92 said:


> Yes I do hide some of it. I think the main reason is that I'm not sure if will make maters better or worse. Sometimes it's just because we are having a good day and I don't want to ruin it.


It sounds like a rugsweep of some kind to me. Do you think you are rugsweeping? Does she still accuse you of cheating?


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

I shouldnthave said:


> If we could get to this place, without having been such selfish d***ks to each other, yeah, sure, I would choose that. But I am not sure if we would have ever gotten to this place without over coming the obstacles that we did.


Do you think your A "evened things up? and allowed you both to move forward?


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## I shouldnthave (Apr 11, 2018)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I guess my question is - since you were BOTH betrayed and wayward - did you and your H understand the other perspective better? As opposed to a WS saying how they "get it" or "see what they have done" but never were betrayed themselves tby their spouse. I have my doubts waywards ever fully get it if they were not cheated on.


He said he didn't get it before.... but on my D Day, he said I understand now. He brought it up often during that time. That he really didn't understand before but now he does. 

But I will say, each of us handle it so differently. My pain came from uncertainty about my future. Hurt for feeling like I had invested so much into him, and he was throwing it all away. Angry at him for being so stupid.

Meanwhile I hurt him emotionally. I really affected his self worth. He says he had always been convinced that I would leave him for "someone better" and my crap made him believe that.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

I shouldnthave said:


> *He said he didn't get it before.... but on my D Day, he said I understand now. He brought it up often during that time. That he really didn't understand before but now he does. *


This makes total sense to me. I have believed that a WS truly gets it when they have to deal with being betrayed. They can "feel bad" and "be empathetic" but they dont feel the betrayal in their bones until its their time to be betrayed. So when a WS says they get it by seeing what their BS is going through I roll my eyes and think no you dont. Not even close.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*My XW(the boys Mom)gets it, or so I think she does. But I don't think she'd ever bring herself to admit it!

Conversely, my RSXW feels justified and entitled to what it was that she did. And IMHO, she wouldn't have the first damned clue about "getting it" if a fluorescent/neon sign flashed it at her every three seconds!*


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> *My XW(the boys Mom)gets it, or so I think. But I don't ever think she'd admit it!
> 
> *


How do you think she gets it? Do the boys know about her? Is she remarried?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Sometimes we don't really appreciate what we have till we are close to loosing it or it is already too late. And later on, it's the scars that remind one what it's really all about and make you stronger (if you manage to overcome it).

In a way, you were 'lucky' it happened to both of you.




I shouldnthave said:


> Honestly? (and hey, aren't we all curious and nosey? Why else would we be here?)
> 
> I wish I didn't take it so far. I wish I didn't cause so much damage.
> 
> ...


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Sometimes we don't really appreciate what we have till we are close to loosing it or it is already too late. And later on, it's the scars that remind one what it's really all about and make you stronger (if you manage to overcome it).
> 
> In a way, you were 'lucky' it happened to both of you.


When a WS says they "did all they could" to R but lost their marriage anyway. I have to shake my head and think you did all you could to destroy your marriage so don't pat yourself on the back for trying to clean up the mess you made. 

In this case since they are madhatters it makes understanding the other side easier I would think.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> When a WS says they "did all they could" to R but lost their marriage anyway. I have to shake my head and think you did all you could to destroy your marriage so don't pat yourself on the back for trying to clean up the mess you made.
> 
> In this case since they are madhatters it makes understanding the other side easier I would think.


I don't actually believe you can truly understand something unless you have gone through it yourself.
Humans have a decent ability to feel empathy but only up to a point. 

I am not advocating revenge affairs btw (I don't think they usually achieve the effect they are supposed to achieve: make the other person understand). The power of the original betrayal comes from the fact that it's literally out of the blue, when you least expected it. A revenge affair is never usually entirely unexpected.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Actually, I should have guessed the answer from your screen name 



I shouldnthave said:


> Honestly? (and hey, aren't we all curious and nosey? Why else would we be here?)
> 
> I wish I didn't take it so far. I wish I didn't cause so much damage.
> 
> ...


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> I don't actually believe you can truly understand something unless you have gone through it yourself.
> Humans have a decent ability to feel empathy but only up to a point.
> 
> I am not advocating revenge affairs btw (I don't think they usually achieve the effect they are supposed to achieve: make the other person understand). The power of the original betrayal comes from the fact that it's literally out of the blue, when you least expected it. A revenge affair is never usually entirely unexpected.


I think it depends on when the RA happens - for example right after dday - expected. 7 years later? I'm not sure about that. I think if the A happens when the WS thinks they are out of the woods it could have the intended effect.

Another line I dont buy from a Ws who has a LTA or multiples APs - that was not the real me - um yes it was. SMH


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> *How do you think she gets it? Do the boys know about her? Is she remarried?*


*Just by her actions toward me as the boys have grown into adulthood! She communicates and talks to me, often making statements like she wishes that things had turned out different for us! She's been diagnosed with MS and that's been a preeminent eye opener for her!

I've chosen to keep the sordid facts of her infidelity story secret from the boys! And no, she has not remarried!*


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> *Just by her actions toward me as the boys have grown into adulthood! She communicates and talks to me, often making statements like she wishes that things had turned out different for us! She's been diagnosed with MS and that's been a preeminent eye opener for her!*


Did she ever remarry? Do you think she is contacting you becuase she is afraid to face MS alone?


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

I too am a mad hatter. We both understand what we have done and are remorseful. It has been 35 years...and triggers do still happen. But those triggers no longer send us into depression like they once did. Now...it is just a sad memory. We both still wish it had not happened...we regret it everyday. But we are happy we are still together and we have a good life. Infidelity will always be in our past...but it no longer defines our future.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> *Did she ever remarry? Do you think she is contacting you because she is afraid to face MS alone?*


*She has intoned on a few different occasions that her greatest fear now is "dying alone!"*


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> *She has intoned on a few different occasions that her greatest fear now is "dying alone!"*


How did her affair effect your boys? 

Now she is afraid of dying alone? Umm..well...hmmm...


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> *
> 
> I've chosen to keep the sordid facts of her infidelity story secret from the boys! And no, she has not remarried![/COLOR]*


I just saw this. Why did you keep it from your boys? How long was her A? Was it a PA?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

FWIW, arbitrator, I think you did the right thing.

Bringing it up now would be stupid.


YES....STUPID


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## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

I shouldnthave said:


> He said he didn't get it before.... but on my D Day, he said I understand now. He brought it up often during that time. That he really didn't understand before but now he does.
> 
> But I will say, each of us handle it so differently. My pain came from uncertainty about my future. Hurt for feeling like I had invested so much into him, and he was throwing it all away. Angry at him for being so stupid.
> 
> Meanwhile I hurt him emotionally. I really affected his self worth. He says he had always been convinced that I would leave him for "someone better" and my crap made him believe that.


I should continue reading the entire thread before posting, but I needed to respond to this. 

My ex has left his OW less than two years after our divorce and their marriage because of her unhinged ways (she was arrested for violating a protective order against the baby-daddy of her 12-year-old, whose retirement meant a change to the amount of her child support). But the thing that really has him irate and chomping at the bit to file for divorce (which starts tomorrow) is that she cheated on him. 

For me, my pain came from uncertainty about my future, the loss of my best friend whom I had invested so much in (and in his family), and he was throwing it all away. Yes, I was angry at him for being so stupid. 

But the cheating OW hurt him seriously, majorly, and affected his self worth. He always tried to convince her that he was there for her and cared about her and her kid, but since he had ED and couldn't perform, he was substituting a big truck and a big pension check, all of which she gladly accepted, and then found some virile young thing in her age range. He bounces back and forth between rage and depression and his bipolar mania ("I can wave my magic wand and erase all the debt I have that I went into to support her"). I saw some correspondence he wrote to someone and he said the OW has robbed him of everything and everyone that he loved. 

So he knew he was being stupid when he left everything he had for her, but he did it anyway. So to answer your question, my WSXH is now truly getting it, but only because the same behaviour was served up to him on a silver platter.

Oh, and now I've read arbitrator's posts (Hey Arbi!) and I too find it interesting that my ex is reaching out to me now, just to chat, just to fill me in on how their relationship ended (I think he is in his weird way trying to make amends, or at least tell me that I don't have to tell him I told him so, he knows now), when he knows he needs to be alone and sort himself out. He's near his family now, kids, siblings, nieces, nephews, parents. But he keeps talking about possibly moving back here since he has some good friends here, people from his home state, and I know it is because he is weighing his options about where best to be so he doesn't die alone.


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## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

arbitrator said:


> *My XW(the boys Mom)gets it, or so I think she does. But I don't think she'd ever bring herself to admit it!
> 
> Conversely, my RSXW feels justified and entitled to what it was that she did. And IMHO, she wouldn't have the first damned clue about "getting it" if a fluorescent/neon sign flashed it at her every three seconds!*


 @arbitrator, I've been gone awhile and my brain is like a sieve. Remind me what RSXW means?


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

TeddieG said:


> I saw some correspondence he wrote to someone and he said the OW has robbed him of everything and everyone that he loved.
> 
> So he knew he was being stupid when he left everything he had for her, but he did it anyway. So to answer your question, my WSXH is now truly getting it, but only because the same behaviour was served up to him on a silver platter.


I have zero sympathy for him. So let me get this straight a cheater is shocked when the cheater he married is cheating on him.










Is he leaning on you now?


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## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

@Truthseeker1, no, not really. I think in the best way he knows how, he's telling me what happened as I said in a post I just edited, to let me know that I don't have to tell him "I told you so," since he can hear in his head all the voices of the people who asked him WTF he was doing. He's just saying he's sorry in the only way he knows how, which is to give me the satisfaction of knowing how they turned out. Except that I take no glee or joy or satisfaction in it. It was all completely unnecessary, and as I said, stealing from IShouldntHave, I was just so upset about my future and how much I have invested in him and his family . . . and now he's the one who has to worry about his future. It just didn't have to be that way. But in many ways, as he went through his midlife crisis, she was the exact mirror image, albeit female, of himself, with the morals of an alley cat. So none of this surprises me; even so, I take no joy or pleasure in it. 

In a weird sort of way I'm glad he's getting it and waking up, while he has time to make amends with family and friends. I forgave him a long time ago, but I realize if I do take any satisfaction from the fact that he is truly waking up and taking responsibility for his life and his health (which he seems to be), I am fortunate to get that kind of closure.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I divorced my husband as soon as I discovered that the supposed EA we were attempting R in the wake of, was actually a two-decades long history of serial cheating of every imaginable type. Basically, he'd been unfaithful off and on for our entire relationship, averaging an affair approximately every 1-2 years (sometimes much more often) since we'd met. 

No. He never got it. He very likely never will. Serial cheaters pretty much never do. He remarried quickly after our divorce and he cheats on her too. People like him are just wired very differently from most regular folk.


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## Trumbull (May 2, 2018)

I do think that very few WS ever have real remorse. Oh, I think many have regret, many are sorry, but remorse, not so often. I think as a BS, my WS has real remorse. However it took a long time for real remorse. So, waiting is truly a gamble. Probably, most are best off divorcing. You may be best off just getting on with your life. In reading this and similar boards, I see a WS who thinks they have achieved remorse and have no idea. Even with remorse, your life is changed forever, again evident just by reading these forums. Each person has to weigh their situation to see what is best for them. No two situations are ever exactly the same. Infidelity is something you do not know what it feels like until it happens to you. A true game changer, but, life can be good again. There is always hope.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

TeddieG said:


> @arbitrator, I've been gone awhile and my brain is like a sieve. Remind me what RSXW means?


*RSXW= Rich, Skanky, Ex-Wife!(Wife No. 2)*


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> Sometimes we don't really appreciate what we have till we are close to loosing it or it is already too late. And later on, it's the scars that remind one what it's really all about and make you stronger (if you manage to overcome it).
> 
> In a way, you were 'lucky' it happened to both of you.


And since that is what it took to get them to "appreciate what they had" the rest of us are "Lucky" they are with each other. 

Just saying.

Besides that, yeah you hope they get it, usually they don't but even if they do the only thing that matters is what the quality of your life will be staying with them.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Trumbull said:


> I do think that very few WS ever have real remorse. Oh, I think many have regret, many are sorry, but remorse, not so often. I think as a BS, my WS has real remorse. .


Agreed...it can happen but its rare. When I hear a WS say I did all I could and I'm still getting divorced poor little ole me - I just have t shake my head. They are no victims and the only people its tragic for are the BS and the kids. 

Most who R simply get to rugsweep in one way or another.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Rowan said:


> t.
> 
> No. He never got it. He very likely never will. Serial cheaters pretty much never do. He remarried quickly after our divorce and he cheats on her too. People like him are just wired very differently from most regular folk.


Absolutely - I put serial cheaters and those in LTAs in a different category all together. If your spouse had multiple APs or cheated for years - what exactly are you getting from R? Then there are those who R with a spouse who had a low desire for sex - at least with them - why stay? I dont get it.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

TeddieG said:


> Oh, and now I've read arbitrator's posts (Hey Arbi!) and I too find it interesting that my ex is reaching out to me now, just to chat, just to fill me in on how their relationship ended (I think he is in his weird way trying to make amends, or at least tell me that I don't have to tell him I told him so, he knows now), when he knows he needs to be alone and sort himself out. He's near his family now, kids, siblings, nieces, nephews, parents. But he keeps talking about possibly moving back here since he has some good friends here, people from his home state, and I know it is because he is weighing his options about where best to be so he doesn't die alone.


I'm cynical and I think selfish to the end. When one is no longer date bait and they have nowhere to turn - hey there is always plan b. SMH.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> *I just saw this. Why did you keep it from your boys? How long was her A? Was it a PA?*


*Hell to the Yes, it was a PA!

My sons were both reasonably small boys(Aged 9 and 5 at the time) when she she gave a corporate VP boss "a raise," hoping that he'd give her an even bigger promotion; all over the course of say about a year! 

All that I told my sons about it was "that Mommy did something bad," but never quite fully elaborated!

Being bipolar, she was never really revered by either son!*


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> *Hell to the Yes, it was a PA!
> 
> My sons were both reasonably small boys at the time when she she gave a corporate VP boss "a raise," hoping that he'd give her a bigger promotion; all over the course of say a year! All that I told my sons about it was "that Mommy did something bad," but never quite elaborated!"
> 
> Being bipolar, she was never really revered by either son!*


You are better off without her!!! You might want to change your number - just sayin'. lol


----------



## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

sokillme said:


> And since that is what it took to get them to "appreciate what they had" the rest of us are "Lucky" they are with each other.
> 
> Just saying.
> 
> Besides that yeah you hope they get it, usually they don't but even if they do the only thing that matters is what the quality of your life will be staying with them.


I probably fall into the category of not really understanding what i had until i almost lost it....
I can say this because i married the ONLY boy i had ever dated...I was barely 17 years old. I went from my fathers home to my husbands home without ever really experiencing the real world. I lived a very sheltered life...and when i found myself in the REAL world...I was not equipped to handle it. So yes....I can say without reservation...that sometimes....in infidelity....a wayward has to come to a realization that they appreciate what they have.

Everything in infidelity is not black and white....and our opinions do not always apply to the situations others have experienced.

I did a horrible thing...I am the first to step up and take responsibility for my actions...however I do NOT agree that all cheaters belong in the same categories defined by bitter betrayed spouses.


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> *I probably fall into the category of not really understanding what i had until i almost lost it....
> I can say this because i married the ONLY boy i had ever dated...I was barely 17 years old. I went from my fathers home to my husbands home without ever really experiencing the real world. I lived a very sheltered life...and when i found myself in the REAL world...I was not equipped to handle it. So yes....I can say without reservation...that sometimes....in infidelity....a wayward has to come to a realization that they appreciate what they have.
> 
> Everything in infidelity is not black and white....and our opinions do not always apply to the situations others have experienced.
> ...


*You are the exception to the rule, Sweetheart!

You truly know what the definition of "remorse" is! And you paid the price!*


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I did a horrible thing...I am the first to step up and take responsibility for my actions...however I do NOT agree that all cheaters belong in the same categories defined by bitter betrayed spouses.


I'm not saying what you did was not wrong but it was a one time indiscretion. You spent years trying to make up for it. Its not the same thing as an affair that lasts years and years or a spouse who cheats with multiple APS, gives you an STD, etc.

JA did suffer horribly but imagine if you had an AP for 5 years or more or had multiple APs? Totally different level of betrayal.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> *You are the exception to the rule, Sweetheart!
> 
> You truly know what the definition of "remorse" is! And you paid the price!*


Thank you ...but my price will NEVER equal what he paid...you and i both know that


----------



## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I'm not saying what you did was not wrong but it was a one time indiscretion. You spent years trying to make up for it. Its not the same thing as an affair that lasts years and years or a spouse who cheats with multiple APS, gives you an STD, etc.
> 
> JA did suffer horribly but imagine if you had an AP for 5 years or more or had multiple APs? Totally different level of betrayal.


honestly...I don't think we would still be together...but never never diminish the level of my betrayal....
I have lived what it has done to him.....


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> *You are the exception to the rule, Sweetheart!
> 
> You truly know what the definition of "remorse" is! And you paid the price!*


Agree 100%!!!!


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> honestly...I don't think we would still be together...but never never diminish the level of my betrayal....
> I have lived what it has done to him.....


I'm not. I remember how much he suffered. My point is you had a one time thing and spent years trying to fix it. Many WS do worse things and do no work to fix it. Trust me I'm not generous with compliments. You earned that one.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Agree 100%!!!!


i understand your thoughts..but I KNOW what i have done....and to me sin is sin...betrayal is betrayal...infidelity is infidelity

you believe there are levels...I don't...


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> *Thank you ...but my price will NEVER equal what he paid...you and I both know that.*


*Agreed! But we know the heart that governs your soul! Very few people in your shoes has one of those!

Always remember that your H forgave you, you forgave yourself, and most importantly, God forgave you!

Need I say more?*


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> i understand your thoughts..but I KNOW what i have done....and to me sin is sin...betrayal is betrayal...infidelity is infidelity
> 
> you believe there are levels...I don't...


I understand - some might divorce over an EA. However I do think some are worse for example - an affair in ones home, in ones bed, etc...there a red lines people cross with makes a complete R more difficult if not impossible.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> *Agreed! But we know the heart that governs your soul! Very few people in your shoes has one of those!
> 
> Always remember that your H forgave you, you forgave yourself, and most importantly, God forgave you!
> 
> Need I say more?*


nope...my friend...that covers it all right there


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I probably fall into the category of not really understanding what i had until i almost lost it....
> I can say this because i married the ONLY boy i had ever dated...I was barely 17 years old. I went from my fathers home to my husbands home without ever really experiencing the real world. I lived a very sheltered life...and when i found myself in the REAL world...I was not equipped to handle it. So yes....I can say without reservation...that sometimes....in infidelity....a wayward has to come to a realization that they appreciate what they have.
> 
> Everything in infidelity is not black and white....and our opinions do not always apply to the situations others have experienced.
> ...


My point is it's better that cheaters are with each other and not one with a poor faithful spouses. At least they are on their own level. Woe is the person who has to settle for someone telling them, then didn't know what they had until the stabbed them in the heard and emotionally destroyed them. Healthy people don't need to blow someone up and risk losing them forever to know better. 

See, right and wrong IS black and white. Your a Christian right not a lot of gray in the bible? I mean are you really trying to say you didn't know better or what you were doing was wrong? Or was it you wanted what you wanted because you wanted it and didn't care at the moment what it would do to your husband? Even so I am sure you had been warned and told how bad it was over and over. I mean where would we all be if it took everyone doing wrong first to know to not do it. 

Besides "a wayward has to come to a realization that they appreciate what they have." if the reason you you would never cheat again that would worry me if I was the BS. That just means you don't get it. The reason you don't cheat is because it's wrong, that's it. You do almost as much damage to yourself when you cheat. With that logic what happens if you go through a down time in your marriage is it OK to cheat again because now "What you have" is not that great anymore? That's wayward thinking. It certainly ain't Christian thinking. 

I'm sorry but taking responsibility is really what any decent person should do after doing something ****ty, I don't see it at something to be congratulated for. I would rather celebrate the person who is tempted and doesn't do the ****ty thing. Who does the honorable thing, THOSE folks never get celebrated. 

Every BS who doesn't have a revenge affair does much more of an honorable thing then the most remorseful and penitent WS and should be celebrated just as much if not more. At least someone should point it out and say it.



> Everything in infidelity is not black and white....and our opinions do not always apply to the situations others have experienced.


I don't get this, Jesus still said sin no more even when he stopped the consequences of the sin itself.


----------



## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

I think the only thing that really triggers Joe anymore is this forum. That's why he doesn't post anymore.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

pidge70 said:


> I think the only thing that really triggers Joe anymore is this forum. That's why he doesn't post anymore.


Yeah it's the forums fault. This thread it TOO much.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

sokillme said:


> My point is it's better that cheaters are with each other and not one with a poor faithful spouses. At least they are on their own level. Woe is the person who has to settle for someone telling them, then didn't know what they had until the stabbed them in the heard and emotionally destroyed them. Healthy people don't need to blow someone up and risk losing them forever to know better.
> *well since we are mad hatters i guess we deserve each other according to your opinion..and i will even agree with you*
> 
> See right and wrong IS black and white. Your a Christian right not a lot of gray in the bible? *I actually think the bible is FULL of grey...it is mankind that tries to make everything black and white* I mean are you really trying to say you didn't know better or what you were doing was wrong? *I knew what i did was wrong...and i never said i didn't...so stop trying to replace my words with your opinions and thoughts* Or was it you wanted what you wanted because you wanted it and didn't care at the moment what it would do to your husband? Even so I am sure you had been warned and told how bad it was over and over. I mean where would we all be if it took everyone doing wrong first to know to not do it. *I KNEW right from WRONG...I absolutely am responsible for my choices....However...I do not think I was prepared emotionally for what i was confronted with.....my choices are still my own....and i am completely and totally responsible for those choices*
> ...


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> sokillme said:
> 
> 
> > My point is it's better that cheaters are with each other and not one with a poor faithful spouses. At least they are on their own level. Woe is the person who has to settle for someone telling them, then didn't know what they had until the stabbed them in the heard and emotionally destroyed them. Healthy people don't need to blow someone up and risk losing them forever to know better.
> ...


----------



## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

sokillme said:


> Mrs. John Adams said:
> 
> 
> > I don't care what the WW thinks. Whatever they think doesn't make it any less wrong, that is the point. If circumstance was an acceptable excuse then why doesn't everyone with the same circumstance do it. People in the worst marriages don't cheat, and people in the best do.
> ...


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> sokillme said:
> 
> 
> > and i don't hear anyone disagreeing with you...wrong is wrong....accountability is accountability...cheating is wrong...
> ...


----------



## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

sokillme said:


> Mrs. John Adams said:
> 
> 
> > I heard someone say they were "Lucky" it happened though.
> ...


----------



## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Please forgive me, I read the first page and then felt the need to post. As for does my wife get it? Yes, as much as one is able to get it. If she sees infidelity in a movie or tv show she grabs my hand, softly says she is sorry and then will change the channel. Moments later I will see a single tear tear slide down her cheek. It causes her pain as it does me. She will notice the elephant in the room and talk to me, explain it, until we are both comfortable. She feels the pain I felt, she feels the humility, the shame, and talks to me to get us both through. Remorse? Yes, I have seen her remorse first hand, and coupled with her hard work she was given the gift of reconciliation. 

Yesterday we just returned home from Disney, I was going to post and start a thread on it, but I know @Truthseeker may find this comforting to hear. It was a vacation of many firsts for the boys, and I can truly say my heart is filled with love right now. It was the boys first time to Disney, that in itself was truly amazing to see, especially the looks on their faces and the excitement they felt. It was the boys first time flying, one was ok, the other prefers driving. It was the first time in a rented house, gated community, and a resort like atmosphere. We had our own pool and hot tub. Truly beautiful, but the best was the love felt by all of us, and still felt today. As we vacationed infidelity never once creeped into our mind, best of all infidelity was not even felt. Have we made it? I don’t know, but after this vacation I know without any doubt, I truly made the best decision for me. I have much more to say, but I think I will start that thread I’ve been thinking of.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

@drifting on I'm glad you are doing well!! What I read in your post is she feels bad - remorse but does she truly get it in her bones? Feeling bad and really getting it are two different things.

I also agree you needed to do what was best for you.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

My ex didn't get it and will never get it, that much I'm sure of. Never got so much as a sorry out of her. She felt she deserved it and I'm certain she still feels that way to this day. I was just a chump that got run over. 

But at least I didn't have to waste any precious time policing her or wondering if she had remorse , talking about feelings and stuff. That R stuff I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. So in that respect, I guess I got off easy. Having a remorseless cheater has some upside.

And at least we co-parent well together.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> But at least I didn't have to waste any precious time policing her or wondering if she had remorse , talking about feelings and stuff. That R stuff I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. So in that respect, I guess I got off easy. Having a remorseless cheater has some upside.
> .


I would think a remorseless cheater would be easier to divorce - you are not losing anything of value. They are damaged beyond repair and the sooner they are another person's problem the better.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

sokillme said:


> pidge70 said:
> 
> 
> > I think the only thing that really triggers Joe anymore is this forum. That's why he doesn't post anymore.
> ...


Have you considered counseling?


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> sokillme said:
> 
> 
> > I cannot begin to tell you why the stars aligned for us...I cannot explain or justify or excuse why it came together for us and not for others. I don't believe we did it right and others did it wrong.....
> ...


----------



## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> @drifting on I'm glad you are doing well!! What I read in your post is she feels bad - remorse but does she truly get it in her bones? Feeling bad and really getting it are two different things.
> 
> I also agree you needed to do what was best for you.


give her time...this is the one thing i cannot stress enough...it takes TIME and no one else can determine how long the betrayed should give. This is a decision that only the betrayed can make.

If he believes she is remorseful...if he can forgive her...then it is on him...and it is no one else's call or opinion that matters

The two of them..have to work this out...and my opinion or your opinion is irrelevant.

We each have to work through this the best way we can...we each have to determine what our lines are...what we can or cannot forgive.

If this husband...can live with his wife's transgressions...if he can forgive her...if he believes she is remorseful...then he is the only one who can determine his future. If he is wrong...he will be the one who suffers...if he is right...he will be the one who benefits.

The rest of us simply offer our opinions...and at the end of the day...he is the one who lives with his decision


----------



## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

sokillme said:


> Mrs. John Adams said:
> 
> 
> > I guess I just have a different idea of what being lucky is.
> ...


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

@Mrs. John Adams - @drifting on can attest to the fact I never once criticized his decision to R. I just wished him peace and happiness. Its up to the individual at the end of the day to choose their own road. 

My point is I doubt that a WS can ever truly get it unless they are betrayed at some point. Which is why I was asking for feedback from the folks at TAM. Being on the receiving end is a lot different then feeling bad for someone who is.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> give her time...this is the one thing i cannot stress enough...it takes TIME and no one else can determine how long the betrayed should give. This is a decision that only the betrayed can make.
> 
> If he believes she is remorseful...if he can forgive her...then it is on him...and it is no one else's call or opinion that matters
> 
> ...



Which is also why it's important to help the betrayed if they are only really staying because of fear. Which happens quite a lot. And also to remind them that most folks will never get it, even with all the time in the world. 



> The rest of us simply offer our opinions...and at the end of the day...he is the one who lives with his decision


This is true.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> @Mrs. John Adams - @drifting on can attest to the fact I never once criticized his decision to R. I just wished him peace and happiness. Its up to the individual at the end of the day to choose their own road.
> 
> My point is I doubt that a WS can ever truly get it unless they are betrayed at some point. Which is why I was asking for feedback from the folks at TAM. Being on the receiving end is a lot different then feeling bad for someone who is.


TS...i believe you...you were one who encouraged John ...


----------



## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

personofinterest said:


> Have you considered counseling?


Which one of us are you asking?


----------



## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

sokillme said:


> Yeah it's the forums fault. This thread it TOO much.


Yep, that's exactly what I said. Feel free to read that in a sarcastic tone.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

sokillme said:


> Which is also why it's important to help the betrayed if they are only really staying because of fear. Which happens quite a lot. And also to remind them that most folks will never get it, even with all the time in the world.
> 
> 
> 
> This is true.


Remember...you may think he is staying because of fear...but in reality...he is the only one who knows in his heart why he stays...and it can be very complicated. There are so many reasons all woven together why a betrayed spouse stays...

I have no doubt that john stayed for all kinds of reasons...but those reasons were important to him....and while others may have thought he was wrong...he still did what he thought was right for him.

He was right...but he could have also been wrong. We just do not know how it will all turn out.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

@Mrs. John Adams - I always believed John stayed out of love and not fear. I never saw him as a man who stayed because he feared the unknown.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Truthseeker1 said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> > But at least I didn't have to waste any precious time policing her or wondering if she had remorse , talking about feelings and stuff. That R stuff I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. So in that respect, I guess I got off easy. Having a remorseless cheater has some upside.
> ...


Exactly. I mainly feared losing the nuclear family. Her, meh...she was a *female dog*.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Exactly. I mainly feared losing the nuclear family. Her, meh...she was a *female dog*.


Having a family with an XWW must be tough. Are you both remarried?


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Remember...you may think he is staying because of fear...but in reality...he is the only one who knows in his heart why he stays...and it can be very complicated. There are so many reasons all woven together why a betrayed spouse stays...
> 
> I have no doubt that john stayed for all kinds of reasons...but those reasons were important to him....and while others may have thought he was wrong...he still did what he thought was right for him.
> 
> He was right...but he could have also been wrong. We just do not know how it will all turn out.


Agreed which is why I always say it's important to have both voices and both opinions. I am more then willing to admit that I may be wrong but it still needs to be said.

However whatever the opinion most of the time some of the extreme fear that BS feels though understandable at first is just unwarranted. Seems to me most believe that their life will never recover unless they somehow make it work with their WS. Which is a tragedy. No matter what they decide it's better they do it from a place of strength not fear and desperation.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> @Mrs. John Adams - I always believed John stayed out of love and not fear. I never saw him as a man who stayed because he feared the unknown.


I agree...however...I am sure at first...there was certainly some fear of the unknown...how could there not be?

But I believe...with all of my heart...he stayed out of love....and he allowed me time...out of love.

Is this the answer for everyone? absolutely not


We both believe in many cases...the best answer is probably divorce


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> We both believe in many cases...the best answer is probably divorce


Unfortunately I believe in many cases some level of rug sweeping goes on if the couple stays together. True R seems to be rare.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

pidge70 said:


> Yep, that's exactly what I said. Feel free to read that in a sarcastic tone.


All sarcasm aside, it's not the board that causes the triggers it's the reminder of the actions that the discussion on the board brings up that does.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

sokillme said:


> Agreed which is why I always say it's important to have both voices and both opinions. I am more then willing to admit that I may be wrong but it still needs to be said.
> 
> However whatever the opinion most of the time some of the extreme fear that BS feels though understandable at first is just unwarranted. Seems to me most believe that their life will never recover unless they somehow make it work with their WS. Which is a tragedy. No matter what they decide it's better they do it from a place of strength not fear and desperation.


I agree with you...that many betrayed spouses are afraid...and make decisions based on fear...and i also agree that divorce may be the best answer. But I also believe that it is their decision to make...and no one should tell them they are wrong.

You and i actually agree on many things...i just don't always agree in your presentation


----------



## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Unfortunately I believe in many cases some level of rug sweeping goes on if the couple stays together. True R seems to be rare.


except...who are we to judge whether it is True R? Isn't it THEIR decision?


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I agree with you...that many betrayed spouses are afraid...and make decisions based on fear...and i also agree that divorce may be the best answer. But I also believe that it is their decision to make...and no one should tell them they are wrong.
> 
> You and i actually agree on many things...i just don't always agree in your presentation


Nor I yours.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I agree with you...that many betrayed spouses are afraid...and make decisions based on fear...and i also agree that divorce may be the best answer. But I also believe that it is their decision to make...and no one should tell them they are wrong.
> 
> You and i actually agree on many things...i just don't always agree in your presentation


I always wondered how many Ds or RAs occur down the line when the BS's fear has subsided. I have no idea how common that is. 

I just want the BS to make their decision from strength and not fear. I understand some choose R and others D - its their call and their call alone.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Truthseeker1 said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> > Exactly. I mainly feared losing the nuclear family. Her, meh...she was a *female dog*.
> ...


No, we split not even 2 years ago. She is in an LTR (poor guy) though it seems like they are happy enough.

I'm in an LTR and it seems very likely we will get married eventually. I learned my lesson and found a woman with morals this time!

If you dknt mind me asking, what's your story? I see you on infidelity threads here a lot, but never heard of you are a BH or just a curious bystander.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> except...who are we to judge whether it is True R? Isn't it THEIR decision?



Absolutely - its been my experience that many people are willing to live with good enough. Is that true R? Who knows? But when a Bs says they no longer look at their WS the same, feel the same, respect them less, etc..I doubt that is true R but merely good enough for them to acoid the discomfort of divorce.


----------



## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

sokillme said:


> All sarcasm aside, it's not the board that causes the triggers it's the reminder of the actions that the discussion on the board brings up that does.


While that may be true, Joe isn't exactly innocent. He also cheated, but this forum doesn't trigger me. 

We've moved on. It's been 8yrs now. While I am grateful to have found this site, it truly wasn't all that conducive to our R. The friends we have made on here though are a different story.

Those people know who they are, and they were the biggest help.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> except...who are we to judge whether it is True R? Isn't it THEIR decision?


To a point. When a poster post something like - 'My spouse cheated years ago, they are unrepentant, they do this, this, and this, and I am miserable. Are they ever going to get it?" (This would be a pretty common post in SI's R forum by the way). 

If you want to give good advice you have an obligation to say - Sorry but they are probably not going to get it, and you can do better. The same way you do, by point out the mistake, if you see someone continue to make a bad investment even if it is in good faith. 

And as you know I believe some abuse is just too extreme to ever morally advise the person do anything else but leave the abuser.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I always wondered how many Ds or RAs occur down the line when the BS's fear has subsided. I have no idea how common that is.
> 
> I just want the BS to make their decision from strength and not fear. I understand some choose R and others D - its their call and their call alone.


I want people to make decisions best for them...whether i agree or disagree

I want them to feel that i support them and hope they achieve their hopes and dreams

I do not want to discourage anyone from doing what they believe is best for them...why? because i have nothing invested in their relationship

Do I think everyone will live happily ever after?...no...unfortunately...the odds are against them


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> No, we split not even 2 years ago. She is in an LTR (poor guy) though it seems like they are happy enough.
> 
> I'm in an LTR and it seems very likely we will get married eventually. I learned my lesson and found a woman with morals this time!
> 
> If you dknt mind me asking, what's your story? I see you on infidelity threads here a lot, but never heard of you are a BH or just a curious bystander.


Betrayed in a LTR. Plus a witness to a lot of it in my personal life - including one 20 year affair - the affair lasted so long the WH cheated on his BW and mistress if you can believe that.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

pidge70 said:


> While that may be true, Joe isn't exactly innocent. He also cheated, but this forum doesn't trigger me.
> 
> We've moved on. It's been 8yrs now. While I am grateful to have found this site, it truly wasn't all that conducive to our R. The friends we have made on here though are a different story.
> 
> Those people know who they are, and they were the biggest help.


Maybe it's his own actions that trigger him. 

I like you avatar by the way.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Mrs. John Adams said:
> 
> 
> > except...who are we to judge whether it is True R? Isn't it THEIR decision?
> ...


I think this is mostly the case from the majority of posters I've seen, especially BHs.


----------



## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

sokillme said:


> To a point. When a poster post something like - 'My spouse cheated years ago, they are unrepentant, they do this, this, and this, and I am miserable. Are they ever going to get it?" (This would be a pretty common post in SI's R forum by the way).
> 
> If you want to give good advice you have an obligation to say - Sorry but they are probably not going to get it, and you can do better. The same way you do, by point out the mistake, if you see someone continue to make a bad investment even if it is in good faith.
> 
> And as you know I believe some abuse is just too extreme to ever morally advice the person do anything else but leave the abuser.


I can only speak from experience....you never know how long it may take...and there is always the possibility that they will indeed achieve remorse

so the question becomes this...how long are you as the betrayed willing to wait?

Because you see...it is completely up to the betrayed...not to you as the forum participant


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I think this is mostly the case from the majority of posters I've seen, especially BHs.


Once the BS has the full truth then their happiness is their responsibility from that point on. If good enough is ok with them then its fine with me.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I want people to make decisions best for them...whether i agree or disagree
> 
> I want them to feel that i support them and hope they achieve their hopes and dreams
> 
> ...


They are even more so if they are with an abusive spouse though. Lots of life is making your own odds.

I want them to be healthy and happy. If they are making decisions and are hurting themselves because they don't have the right information, faith in themselves or that they can do better, I want them to be empowered so eventually they will. I don't care about their marriage or their WS all I care about is that eventually they thrive in life, not just survive infidelity.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> sokillme said:
> 
> 
> > To a point. When a poster post something like - 'My spouse cheated years ago, they are unrepentant, they do this, this, and this, and I am miserable. Are they ever going to get it?" (This would be a pretty common post in SI's R forum by the way).
> ...


If the remorse takes longer than the drive to a divorce lawyer, it's too late at least in my book.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> If the remorse takes longer than the drive to a divorce lawyer, it's too late at least in my book.


and in your case...that is certainly the right answer

but it is not necessarily the right answer for everyone


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I can only speak from experience....you never know how long it may take...and there is always the possibility that they will indeed achieve remorse
> 
> so the question becomes this...how long are you as the betrayed willing to wait?
> 
> Because you see...it is completely up to the betrayed...not to you as the forum participant


This is great from the WS's perspective. However even if the WS eventually gets it, that doesn't mean the the BS wouldn't have had a better life if they had left and not waited years sometimes decades. It's still years or decades. That's the thing, someone should say that.

So my question is why are you wiling to wait? Yes they may get it eventually and at that point you may have a great marriage, but that doesn't mean you couldn't still do better. Have a marriage without all the baggage plus years of waiting, getting something that a healthy person just knows.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

sokillme said:


> Mrs. John Adams said:
> 
> 
> > I can only speak from experience....you never know how long it may take...and there is always the possibility that they will indeed achieve remorse
> ...


What is more likely the remorse never comes. My view is that you know fairly early if there is anything to work with or not. If it doesn't come soon when the wound is still fresh, it likely won't come later after time washes away a lot of that initial pain. I'm not a fan of waiting. Anything that isn't proactive is a pick me dance. You either have control as a BS or the WS does. Being hurt and not having control is a bad recipe.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

I swear, starting to sound like Rookie is posting.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

No one can answer for someone else

If in your own situation you determine waiting is the wrong answer then it is

If however someone else thinks giving the wayward time then no one else can determine what is right for them 

John gave me time 

It was the right answer for him

I am not saying it is the right answer for everyone 

And no one else can determine what is the right answer for someone else


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> No one can answer for someone else
> 
> If in your own situation you determine waiting is the wrong answer then it is
> 
> ...


I mean that is the PC answer but not very useful for those in the thick of it. They need direction, not just some fortune cookie message-- do what you feel is right for you. What they want is control while their world is slipping like sand through their fingers.

That means no pick-me, no waiting around in limbo hell while your spouse is fence sitting or cake eating. Remorse is absolutely essential to any R and if it's not there then MC is a huge waste of money, they need to find a divorce lawyer ASAP. It's not like you get divorced that day, but it immediately gives you control and knocks your WS off the fence one way or another. And honestly it's probably the best way of salvaging your marriage than waiting for your WS to magically get it one day.

You have to be proactive, waiting is a losers game in infidelity. In the end, all you have to lose is a backstabbing cheater.


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## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

arbitrator said:


> *RSXW= Rich, Skanky, Ex-Wife!(Wife No. 2)*


Thank you Arbi!


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

pidge70 said:


> While that may be true, Joe isn't exactly innocent. He also cheated, but this forum doesn't trigger me.
> 
> We've moved on. It's been 8yrs now. While I am grateful to have found this site, it truly wasn't all that conducive to our R. The friends we have made on here though are a different story.
> 
> Those people know who they are, and they were the biggest help.





I want you to know something, when I first came here I didn’t register for some time afterward. During the beginning I read posts, threads, tried to get to know who and what people were. I found many posters to be very helpful, and some of them have become friends, very good friends. I always found Joe and yourself to be very honest and genuine. I feel a debt of gratitude to you both for posting on TAM, but I truly hope that you both find solace in that you helped a stranger without ever knowing. For that I say thank you from the bottom of my heart. God bless you both.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> @drifting on I'm glad you are doing well!! What I read in your post is she feels bad - remorse but does she truly get it in her bones? Feeling bad and really getting it are two different things.
> 
> I also agree you needed to do what was best for you.




@Truthseeker, yes, remorse has set in her deep into her bones. Truthfully, I believe remorse began just after she ended the affair. I’ve seen it, but I couldn’t ever describe it in words.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Once the BS has the full truth then *their happiness is their responsibility* from that point on. If *good enough* is ok with them then its fine with me.


QFT.

TS1, You and I have been down this discussion lane many times, many years... I think you are spot on, "good enough".


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

How many of these people get it? Now granted this is the most extreme but do you think someone who posts this kind of stuff has it in them to get it? Let's be real here if you could give truth serum to most WS while they were in the middle of their affair they would talk like this. The affair is fun and exciting, the sex is hot. They may not be awful enough to post it on a board but they are enjoying themselves. Do you think their morals just all of a sudden change? Lots of people are disgusted just reading those posts, the thought of behaving like that is not even a possibility. Make no mistake though, this is the mindset of someone who has an affair. It's just the folks that post on this board are more honest about it, or have no shame. 

I think before you advise R and love conquers all take a good hour and read those threads. You may just be advising someone to R with a person who thinks like they post on that board? Well they all think like it in some way or another, but they may even revel enough in it to post about it. 

Still think it's good advice?


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> give her time...this is the one thing i cannot stress enough...it takes TIME and no one else can determine how long the betrayed should give. This is a decision that only the betrayed can make.
> 
> If he believes she is remorseful...if he can forgive her...then it is on him...and it is no one else's call or opinion that matters
> 
> ...




My d-day came two and a half years after the affair ended. During this time my wife became remorseful, which made my decision that much more difficult. My love for her, my kids, and myself found a way to offer reconciliation. If it worked I would benefit greatly, if it didn’t, I wouldn’t suffer any more then I already had. I had come to peace with myself, I knew I would be fine with or without her, I had no fear of being alone. But love can be very powerful as you and John Adams know.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

drifting on said:


> @Truthseeker, yes, remorse has set in her deep into her bones. Truthfully, I believe remorse began just after she ended the affair. I’ve seen it, but I couldn’t ever describe it in words.


I trust your view that she is remorseful but I dont think she gets infidelity in her bones since she was not on the receiving end. She has the gift of a faithful spouse.Her views would surely change if she was the betrayed - she'd understand it on a deeper level as opposed to feeling bad for being the cheater.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

RWB said:


> QFT.
> 
> TS1, You and I have been down this discussion lane many times, many years... I think you are spot on, "good enough".


Yup as much as we care about the BS and want the best for them - if they settle on good enough then we all need to accept that. The one thing I have no patience for is after that point a BS who continues to complain about their WS, triggers, etc.. At that point the only person who is victimizing them is themselves IMO.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

drifting on said:


> @Truthseeker, yes, remorse has set in her deep into her bones. Truthfully, I believe remorse began just after she ended the affair. I’ve seen it, but I couldn’t ever describe it in words.


I think being cheated on is like sex until it is done to you, you may intellectually understand it, and even have empathy but you don't know. Just like there is no way for me to truly know your suffering because yours is even worse. 

I don't think that doesn't mean you can feel remorse though, just like I don't think knowing how what you went through feels doesn't mean I can't have deep sympathy for you. 

Beside like Mrs. J Adam's said, it's your life. You seem pretty happy. I am not going to tell you you are wrong. You and I both know though if I was on here when it first happened what my advice would be. I just don't like offering advice using the very rare exception as the goto.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Is the trigger really a song or movie...or is it just your spouse?


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

@Truthseeker1 and @sokillme, I agree my wife has not felt the betrayal. I also understand the post by sokillme and yet again you are having me think deeply. For me this is good that I see another perspective, another view besides just my own. Both of you have had me thinking deeply, a compliment I don’t give out very often. I will see if I can put my answer into words soon.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> I think being cheated on is like sex until it is done to you, you may intellectually understand it, and even have empathy but you don't know.


QFT...I roll my eyes when a WS says they "understand" the devastation they have caused. No they dont.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

drifting on said:


> @Truthseeker1 and @sokillme, I agree my wife has not felt the betrayal. I also understand the post by sokillme and yet again you are having me think deeply. For me this is good that I see another perspective, another view besides just my own. Both of you have had me thinking deeply, a compliment I don’t give out very often. I will see if I can put my answer into words soon.


I started t his thread in part to really find out how BSs felt about their WSs getting it. I've read WS claim to understand but always doubted that they fully ever did. The few who were madhatters did admit their BSs RA did sharpen their focus as to what infidelity felt like. It had to. So for example I wonder if a WS who gets uncomfortable at infidelity in movies with the BS around would be uncomfortable alone. I know the BS would trigger with them or alone. See the difference?


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

@drifting on - this is not to say remorse or R are not possible but if the WS is never betrayed they really dont know how being a BS feels. For example if you accidentally hit someone with your car and break their leg - sure you feel bad for breaking their leg, you might bring them 3 meals a day until they are fully healed but you dont know the pain of that broken leg unless you had a broken bone. Experience vs Empathy.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

drifting on said:


> I want you to know something, when I first came here I didn’t register for some time afterward. During the beginning I read posts, threads, tried to get to know who and what people were. I found many posters to be very helpful, and some of them have become friends, very good friends. I always found Joe and yourself to be very honest and genuine. I feel a debt of gratitude to you both for posting on TAM, but I truly hope that you both find solace in that you helped a stranger without ever knowing. For that I say thank you from the bottom of my heart. God bless you both.


Awwww, I'm glad we were of help to you! Truly. We wish you all the best sir. You are one of the sweetest people on here. It has been an honor to know you.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

pidge70 said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > Have you considered counseling?
> ...


 I'm asking sokill. Your anger is so palpable, and from what I understand you have never even had an actual spouse that cheated. It was a dating relationship and it was years and years ago. What is the deal with you that you have to go after people so hard, especially a gracious lady who has been recovered for over 30 years?


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I mean that is the PC answer but not very useful for those in the thick of it. They need direction, not just some fortune cookie message-- do what you feel is right for you. What they want is control while their world is slipping like sand through their fingers.
> 
> That means no pick-me, no waiting around in limbo hell while your spouse is fence sitting or cake eating. Remorse is absolutely essential to any R and if it's not there then MC is a huge waste of money, they need to find a divorce lawyer ASAP. It's not like you get divorced that day, but it immediately gives you control and knocks your WS off the fence one way or another. And honestly it's probably the best way of salvaging your marriage than waiting for your WS to magically get it one day.
> 
> You have to be proactive, waiting is a losers game in infidelity. In the end, all you have to lose is a backstabbing cheater.


One thing about reconciliation...you can at any time...divorce. So if you are not one who has to immediately get rid of the wayward...and you think you might be able to give them time...then trying and waiting...is the right answer for you. 

Waiting is still still DOING something. Not making a decision is still MAKING a decision.

and for those who don't have to analyze and contemplate or think about it...but move decisively and promptly....good for them! they did what was best for them.

But I will correct you in your thinking....remorse ...TRUE remorse...takes time. Your wayward may be sorry, they may have regret, but they will not have an understanding of True remorse.

Remorse is not wallowing in the floor screaming I am so sorry. Sorry for what? Sorry you got caught? 
NO...remorse is understanding empathy and acting upon it. It is being accountable for your choices....it is becoming completely transparent...it is understanding the pain you caused deep in your soul and doing everything in your power to heal the person you have injured.

It is nearly impossible for a wayward to understand...much less accomplish. You cannot have remorse for hurting someone else if you are still feeling sorry for yourself and thinking about yourself and worrying about yourself. Waywards are selfish...so while they may be sorry for what they did...feeling empathy for the one they hurt will take time.

You may disagree with me...and that's ok....but i KNOW how difficult it is...and I know it takes TIME.

You are talking about accountability...not remorse. A wayward that is accountable does not cake eat.


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## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> You cannot have remorse for hurting someone else if you are still feeling sorry for yourself and thinking about yourself and worrying about yourself. Waywards are selfish...so while they may be sorry for what they did...feeling empathy for the one they hurt will take time.


So true. I did not recognize my own h during his period of infidelity. It was all about him. And even though his recent marriage is failing due to her infidelity (with, he claims, several men), and he has reached out to me in a "now I know what it was like" kind of way, he's still dealing with his emotions and feelings about her betrayal of him, his desire for a speedy divorce, his ruined finances which will limit his housing options. And I'm not sure any of that selfishness will subside. I'm seeing a guy who knows what he did to me now, who knows how it feels, but I think his response (and I've always believed this would be the case) will be the opposite of remorse (or if he feels it I'll never know, he'll never admit it), and it will be victimhood and wallowing. One of the things I had hoped for him was that he'd finally grow up and realize he can avoid these kinds of situations and circumstances, but I don't know if that's going to happen. I'm doubtful, but I'm hopeful for him, since I still care about his well-being. Maybe time will tell.


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## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

@Truthseeker1, you were the first person to reach out to me when I showed up here almost 3 years ago. Thanks for starting this post; it gave me the opportunity to think through some things about my ex and his current situation. I always feel heard on your threads.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

sokillme said:


> My point is it's better that cheaters are with each other and not one with a poor faithful spouses. At least they are on their own level.



I know what you mean but it doesn’t work that way. Being unfaithful is not akin to some kind of club membership of ‘lower class’;
a spouse can be unfaithful in one relationship and be completely faithful in another one and vice versa.

It’s true if someone is a serial cheater, there’s a tendency to cheat in the future. But many people cheat for different reasons and may never repeat it again or decide to cheat later on after having been faithful for 50 years.

Basically I am not sure one can generalise like that.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> sokillme said:
> 
> 
> > My point is it's better that cheaters are with each other and not one with a poor faithful spouses. At least they are on their own level. Woe is the person who has to settle for someone telling them, then didn't know what they had until the stabbed them in the heard and emotionally destroyed them. Healthy people don't need to blow someone up and risk losing them forever to know better.
> ...


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> One thing about reconciliation...you can at any time...divorce. So if you are not one who has to immediately get rid of the wayward...and you think you might be able to give them time...then trying and waiting...is the right answer for you.
> 
> Waiting is still still DOING something. Not making a decision is still MAKING a decision.
> 
> ...


It's a mistake to choose to R because of remorse or ever regret anyway. Remorse is really only a requirement. Though I think immediate remorse is unrealistic, frankly I don't think most WS will ever have the introspection to have remorse. It's the reason they are able to do it. Let's be honest the fact that they need years sometimes to understand what adultery is says all you need to say about them as far as emotional health is concerned. 

Anyway the choice should be made on what your quality of life will be. You can have the most remorseful of spouses and your life could still be crap because you are living with your trigger. Not uncommon.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> I know what you mean but it doesn’t work that way. Being unfaithful is not akin to some kind of club membership of ‘lower class’;
> a spouse can be unfaithful in one relationship and be completely faithful in another one and vice versa.
> 
> It’s true if someone is a serial cheater, there’s a tendency to cheat in the future. But many people cheat for different reasons and may never repeat it again or decide to cheat later on after having been faithful for 50 years.
> ...


It absolutely works that way. There are cheaters and non cheaters. There are absolutely people who would never do it under and circumstances.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

sokillme said:


> It absolutely works that way. There are cheaters and non cheaters. There are absolutely people who would never do it under and circumstances.




There are also people who say they will absolutely never do it under any circumstances and then still do it. There are no two categories of people.
More importantly, you can never predict with certainty who will do it and who won’t. Just because someone says they will never do it, doesn’t mean they will never do it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

TeddieG said:


> @Truthseeker1, you were the first person to reach out to me when I showed up here almost 3 years ago. Thanks for starting this post; it gave me the opportunity to think through some things about my ex and his current situation. I always feel heard on your threads.


I'm glad you feel heard and have a place to work though things. I started this thread to foster a duscussion so we all might learn something. I know I am.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> sokillme said:
> 
> 
> > I cannot begin to tell you why the stars aligned for us...I cannot explain or justify or excuse why it came together for us and not for others. I don't believe we did it right and others did it wrong.....
> ...


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> There are also people who say they will absolutely never do it under any circumstances and then still do it. There are no two categories of people.
> More importantly, you can never predict with certainty who will do it and who won’t. Just because someone says they will never do it, doesn’t mean they will never do it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hypotheticals are worth sh*t people can *say* anything they like. Actions mean more than words.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Reconciliation takes two people
You cannot reconcile alone

We have worked hard ... it has taken both of us


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Reconciliation takes two people
> You cannot reconcile alone
> 
> We have worked hard ... it has taken both of us


I agree for any reltionship to succeed it takes two.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Reconciliation takes two people
> You cannot reconcile alone
> 
> We have worked hard ... it has taken both of us




I’m genuinely curious what it is the WS actually needs to do in order to reconcile? (Apart from the confession/remorse thingy).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> I'm asking sokill. Your anger is so palpable, and from what I understand you have never even had an actual spouse that cheated. It was a dating relationship and it was years and years ago. What is the deal with you that you have to go after people so hard, especially a gracious lady who has been recovered for over 30 years?


Thats the thing about infidelity, it is a traumatic experience. You may not care about the person that did it anymore, and your life might be better in every facet since moving on from the cheater, but you can still be p*ssed off by it. For me its not something that keeps me up at night or gets my day down in the least, I've moved on with a better partner and am happy. But we can still have strong opinions on affairs or waywards or anything else, especially moreso if your opinion was colored by an unpleasant personal experience. Hell, some people start threads on Trump or Obama and aren't the least bit affected by them but its like these Presidents came over one day urinated in their cereal, banged their wife and kicked their dog on the way out. I don't think sokilled needs Professional Help or anything, I just think he has a strong opinion and likes to challenge his opinion against others that disagree.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

What does any relationship need? Two people working together giving and taking.. communicating... 

A relationship affected by infidelity is just like any other relationship accept that now it is also a damaged relationship 

A wayward has to hold themselves accountable for their choices... no blame shifting no cake eating no validating no excusing. I made the decision to cheat. 
Then a wayward has to become transparent.. no lying no hiding details no secrets. 

In order to begin to rebuild a broken relationship accountability and transparency are required. 

And then a wayward has to become empathetic... in order to understand the pain caused you must be empathetic. Empathy is a hard emotion for some people.. especially if they are selfish. And cheaters are selfish. 

This means a wayward has to dig deep to understand how they became a monster. No one likes to believe they are capable of hurting their partner like cheating hurts. Cheating is the ultimate betrayal. As a cheater you betrayed the one person you should be protecting.

I personally believe that as human beings we continue to grow and mature as long as we are alive. All of us make bad choices... the growth comes when we learn from our choices and we don’t repeat them. 

Relationships are two individuals continuing to grow and mature together... 

So reconciliation is simply two wounded people helping each other to be the best they can be. I say this often ... if I always put the needs and wants of my partner before my own... and he does the same... we both win.

John and I are committed to helping each other be better people. We are committed to putting our relationship above everything else.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> I'm asking sokill. Your anger is so palpable, and from what I understand you have never even had an actual spouse that cheated. It was a dating relationship and it was years and years ago. What is the deal with you that you have to go after people so hard, especially a gracious lady who has been recovered for over 30 years?


I am not angry at all, I just call it what it is. Whether you want to admit it or not infidelity is like rape. When you cheat you take away someones emotional agency, you steal from them and you cause them tremendous trauma. You change their life forever. I have read many posts from people who have suffered both and they say the infidelity is worse, so at least some people feel this way. This is why presenting overly optimistic advice is dangerous. 

Lots of people who post on these boards basically have the opinion that if the person who committed such a horrible act is sorry it wonderful, and BS should just forgive so they can live happily ever after. Seemingly lot of time that advice is given because it makes the person giving the advice happy because it's a "feel good", romantic story like some lifetime movie. "I'm a romantic, I love a happy ending" and all that crap is said by these people often. If that is the reason then shame on you, these are real people who very often end up trapped in years of unhappiness, often being encouraged by these same people and their romantic ideas. Half the time you read posts from the BS feeling like a failure because they just can't get over it. When it's perfectly acceptable to never get over it that is actually probably a more normal response. Most people don't get over rape either they learn to live with it. They don't compound the problem by trying live with their rapist. That's just not good enough. Sorry if my tone isn't nice about that, you don't have to agree.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Skm you never get over infidelity whether you reconcile or divorce 

But you can learn to live with it... and you get to choose your own path of learning to live with it. 

You are right... once infidelity occurs it cannot be undone. And whether you divorce the wayward or reconcile with them.. this is a fact. 

I read on the forum many years ago a profound statement 

The betrayed and the wayward both want the same thing... they both want the infidelity to never have happened in the first place

This is a sad reality


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> The betrayed and the wayward both want the same thing... they both want the infidelity to have happened in the first place
> 
> This is a sad reality


I assume you mean not to have happened and I agree but it has which is why true remorse and true R seem real depending on the level of the transgression. Sometimes its broken into too many pieces to ever be as agood as it was again.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Yes I fixed it sorry about that

And I agree sometimes the damage done is just too much


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Yes I fixed it sorry about that
> 
> And I agree sometimes the damage done is just too much


Yes..when a spouse crossed too many red lines there is less and less to save.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> What does any relationship need? Two people working together giving and taking.. communicating....


Maybe for one without infidelity in it that's true. However that idea completely ignores the trauma and damage done to the BS. 

It's very hard to live with someone whose very presence is a source of pain? Whose missing presences causes panic attacks because they remember how effectively they were lied to and were easily fooled. Often times so much so that they don't even trust there own judgment? Who desperately wants to be with the imaginary image that the WS presented themselves as, when that's never who they were in the first place. Often realizing later that who the WS really is, is not anyone they would have dated let alone marry. Yet in many cases now they have kids with this person. The BS who has to make the terrible choice of being with someone they love and compromising their own personal values to do it. Knowing every day that you now have to accept a life that you would have never chosen in a million years. All of these feelings are reasonable and healthy for the BS to have. They also may never truly go away even if your WS is the most contrite. 

You make it sound so easy, but the WS can do everything you say and that still doesn't in the end make a good marriage or a good life. It also doesn't address all the other stuff that the BS has to go through to even attempt to do it. Again a remorseful WS is only a requirement.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Skm you never get over infidelity whether you reconcile or divorce
> 
> But you can learn to live with it... and you get to choose your own path of learning to live with it.
> 
> ...


It's a very rare WS that wants that. Most of them just want the damage to go away so they don't have to think about it. That's the sad reality.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> That makes sense. I dont think most WSs get it or care to - they want to move on and rug sweep in most cases IMO. Even those in R can be show empathy but they dont get it on a very basic level. Like the example I gave - cheater not being effected by entertainment like the BS might be.


Did you ask the question to learn from others or just to have a platform to delegitimize every answer that comes in against your view? 

And more importantly, why is it so important that you project onto every WS in earshot your notions of how they think? What happens in a world where cheaters are remorseful, do understand the hurt they've caused, do work to repair the damage and fix their marriages? Why is that concept so alien to your notion of a just world?


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Skm... I can only speak for myself. I wish with all my heart I had never cheated. I wish I could undo what I did. I wish that I could take away the pain I caused my husband. But the reality is I can’t. 

But I can help him feel safe. I can help him heal. I can be the kind of wife he deserved. I can show him that I understand the gift he has given me.

All waywards are not the same... and I only know who I am and what I have done the past 35 years. And all betrayed spouses are not the same either. Each of them has to choose what is best in their own life. 

All of the horrible things you have said can be true... but not always

I hope I have not made reconciliation sound easy ... because it isn’t. Relationships are not easy and those affected by infidelity are certainly not easy.

I know the amount of work I have put into our relationship and I know how much work he has also put into it.

Infidelity is horrible... it is life changing... and whether you divorce or you reconcile this is a fact.

I do not believe John looks at me everyday if his life and sees a cheater. I do not think he looks at me and sees evil. I do not think he looks at me and sees pain. 

If he did... if he felt the way you describe.. he should have divorced me.

I think it is possible to look at your wayward and see the person you still love... and I believe if you see in your wayward the attributes you need to see in order to reconcile then you have a good chance to achieve reconciliation. 

None of us can predict the outcome of a relationship. I know my husband would not have married me if he thought for a second I would cheat.

And only he can determine whether or not he is willing to try reconciliation. He is very analytical. He weighed his options ... and he made his choice.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Skm... I can only speak for myself. I wish with all my heart I had never cheated. I wish I could undo what I did. I wish that I could take away the pain I caused my husband. But the reality is I can’t.
> 
> But I can help him feel safe. I can help him heal. I can be the kind of wife he deserved. I can show him that I understand the gift he has given me.
> 
> ...


You've worked really hard to fix things and it hads paid off for both you you I think.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

It has paid off for us. Sadly it does not always .... but it has for us


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## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

@Mrs. John Adams, you gained a lot of wisdom and serenity through this process. Your observations are painfully earned, yet you never waiver in your straightforward way of talking without letting anger, impatience, disgust, or disrespect creep in to your posts. I've learned a lot from you, at a host of levels.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

TeddieG said:


> @Mrs. John Adams, you gained a lot of wisdom and serenity through this process. Your observations are painfully earned, yet you never waiver in your straightforward way of talking without letting anger, impatience, disgust, or disrespect creep in to your posts. I've learned a lot from you, at a host of levels.


There is a humility to @Mrs. John Adams posts.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Teddie... I believe everyone is entitled to an opinion. I may not agree with them but they have one just like I do.

The only time I get upset with folks is when they try to change my story.... I have lived it... you do not need to tell me what I did or did not do. And I understand that I am a wayward so I represent the enemy. However I am not your wayward.. so don’t place your anger and judgement and pain on me. There is only one man allowed to do that.... and he has forgiven me. 

I do my very best to be fair... to everyone and to treat everyone with respect. I deserve the same consideration. 

I wish I could tell you it never hurts... but it does. 

My purpose in posting is to help waywards face the reality of their choice and to avoid the mistakes I made along my journey. I also hope I can help betrayed spouses understand their waywards better.

No matter how you slice it.. infidelity is a life changing event that we all wish had not happened. And we are all just trying to deal with it the best way we can.


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## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

Truthseeker1 said:


> There is a humility to @Mrs. John Adams posts.


Truthseeker, I saw a snippet from John McCain's upcoming book. He said this about humility (and I would argue that the scarcity is not just in politics, but everywhere; there's certainly a scarcity of it among the people I work most closely with):

“There’s a scarcity of humility in politics these days. . . . Any politician worth a damn can fake modesty. _Humility is the self-knowledge that you possess as much inherent dignity as anyone else, and not one bit more._ Among its other virtues, humility makes for more productive politics. If it vanishes entirely, we will tear our society apart.”


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

My wife still does not get it and never has. She was very upset with me the day I put a stop to the "Emotional Affair" she had with a guy at her gym. And yes I know it could have been physical but I have zero proof. All this happened years ago when EA was not a term used as it is today. There were no mobile phones back then, no texting, no IM, no GPS - nothing of an electronic nature that could have given me proof of a lie or a PA.

So she never "got it". She never admitted her actions were wrong. I was/am just a jealous, unreasonable, controlling husband. From that moment on I never had 100% trust in her like before. My eyes were opened to the possibility that she is not the angel I thought she was. If she was capable of doing this to me, was she not capable of taking it to the next step?

It changed me forever. It changed out relationship forever. More than 25 years ago and I still remember every detail of that day.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

TDSC60 said:


> My wife still does not get it and never has. She was very upset with me the day I put a stop to the "Emotional Affair" she had with a guy at her gym. And yes I know it could have been physical but I have zero proof. All this happened years ago when EA was not a term used as it is today. There were no mobile phones back then, no texting, no IM, no GPS - nothing of an electronic nature that could have given me proof of a lie or a PA.
> 
> So she never "got it". She never admitted her actions were wrong. I was/am just a jealous, unreasonable, controlling husband. From that moment on I never had 100% trust in her like before. My eyes were opened to the possibility that she is not the angel I thought she was. If she was capable of doing this to me, was she not capable of taking it to the next step?
> 
> It changed me forever. It changed out relationship forever. More than 25 years ago and I still remember every detail of that day.


she has disrespected the marriage and you, she is unrelenting, unremorseful and yet you stay with her


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## MyRevelation (Apr 12, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Skm you never get over infidelity whether you reconcile or divorce


This may hold some truth for some, but not for me and my experiences.

Shortly after D with my X, I quit being bothered by her A. I simply didn't give a **** what or who she did. If I look back on that relationship now, I'm not in the least bit sorry for the A ... Hell, it set me free. What I struggle with, if I spend any time pondering on it ... usually in connection with my current M, is that I plowed right over all the red flags waving that were warning me that her cheating was inevitable. However, once she cheated and we were D, then there was nothing left to "get over".

Now to tie it together with current situation. Different red flags were waving early on ... XW cheated in every relationship she'd ever been in, but of course I was "special" and she wouldn't do it to me ... current W's red flags were signs of significant selfishness and being a pampered princess, and I plowed right over those too, and it led to the same outcome, which I still beat myself up for ignoring those waving red flags.

As for this poll, I voted "doesn't get it", because while current W has many good qualities and if I was making a list of pros and cons, the pros would be MANY times longer than the cons, but an A is like dropping a trump card, it may be only one item on the con side. However, it overrides many more than one from the pro side. Plus current W's lack of self awareness allows that selfishness to bubble up every few months and as soon as it appears, then I go from zero to pissed in 0.1 seconds. I'll call her out ... she'll acknowledge it and apologize and tip toe around on eggs shells for a few days ... but I know she doesn't "get it". She only suppresses her selfishness for awhile. She's not going to magically become self aware or unselfish, because that's simply not who she is.

Now, upon reflecting on what I just typed, I suppose many will question why I didn't follow the same path the second time. In retrospect, maybe I should have. However, this particular rant is just that ... mostly rant ... BECAUSE the selfishness just made its most recent appearance the night before last, and I'm probably still experiencing the lingering effects of that trip from zero to pissed off. Now, she's currently in ass kissing mode, which pisses me off even more, because every ass kiss is just another reminder of why she's puckering up now.

Thanks for indulging my rant and letting me get it out of my system ... I just feel "old and tired" today.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

Lostinthought61 said:


> she has disrespected the marriage and you, she is unrelenting, unremorseful and yet you stay with her


The reason I stayed was my two small kids. If I had found proof that it was physical (and I did some spying) she would be out the door immediately.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Skm... I can only speak for myself. I wish with all my heart I had never cheated. I wish I could undo what I did. I wish that I could take away the pain I caused my husband. But the reality is I can’t.
> 
> But I can help him feel safe. I can help him heal. I can be the kind of wife he deserved. I can show him that I understand the gift he has given me.
> 
> ...


None of what I said was a personal judgement on you. I believe all the things you said. I think your husband has healed as you have said, he even posts here from time to time. I just think that you are very rare, and that at least needs to be pointed out. When you use yourself as the example I think it has the possibility of giving a false hope.

I am not angry or judging you. I don't see you as the enemy but I do believe you post from a WS point of view. I sometimes think even the most contrite WS's first instinct isn't really seeing from the BS's point of view.


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## hoblob (Mar 28, 2018)

Mine felt regret and did the usual crap. She felt justified with her A because we (I) stopped being sexual with her and rejected her.
But years after she’s “gotten it”
I think that has a lot to do with maturing as a person. She legitimately feels disgust with her behavior and actions. She hates how she hurt me but also how she lacked integrity.

I’ve also hurt her over the years since, so I that has allowed her more introspection.

I think it boils down to the fact that some people are crappy people and some aren’t. I cheated on her and I didn’t feel much regret.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

TDSC60 said:


> My wife still does not get it and never has. She was very upset with me the day I put a stop to the "Emotional Affair" she had with a guy at her gym. And yes I know it could have been physical but I have zero proof. All this happened years ago when EA was not a term used as it is today. There were no mobile phones back then, no texting, no IM, no GPS - nothing of an electronic nature that could have given me proof of a lie or a PA.
> 
> So she never "got it". She never admitted her actions were wrong. I was/am just a jealous, unreasonable, controlling husband. From that moment on I never had 100% trust in her like before. My eyes were opened to the possibility that she is not the angel I thought she was. If she was capable of doing this to me, was she not capable of taking it to the next step?
> 
> It changed me forever. It changed out relationship forever. More than 25 years ago and I still remember every detail of that day.


Get her the book "not just friends" and ask her to read it.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Skm you never get over infidelity whether you reconcile or divorce


This is true but choices you make may facilitate a faster and even better recovery.


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

I voted No. 

Although I don't speak to her, and haven't since the divorce, she knows what she did. She just doesn't care. To her, it was a means to the end. It was the path she had to take to become free to bang whoever she wanted without a husband or children getting in her way. She is a Compartmentalizer Extraordinaire so any guilty thought that may arise, is quickly overcome, locked up and buried. 

She is on a quest for an elusive fantasy life where the $hit smells like roses.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

sokillme said:


> I am not angry at all, I just call it what it is. Whether you want to admit it or not infidelity is like rape. When you cheat you take away someones emotional agency, you steal from them and you cause them tremendous trauma. You change their life forever. I have read many posts from people who have suffered both and they say the infidelity is worse, so at least some people feel this way. This is why presenting overly optimistic advice is dangerous.
> 
> Lots of people who post on these boards basically have the opinion that if the person who committed such a horrible act is sorry it wonderful, and BS should just forgive so they can live happily ever after. Seemingly lot of time that advice is given because it makes the person giving the advice happy because it's a "feel good", romantic story like some lifetime movie. "I'm a romantic, I love a happy ending" and all that crap is said by these people often. If that is the reason then shame on you, these are real people who very often end up trapped in years of unhappiness, often being encouraged by these same people and their romantic ideas. Half the time you read posts from the BS feeling like a failure because they just can't get over it. When it's perfectly acceptable to never get over it that is actually probably a more normal response. Most people don't get over rape either they learn to live with it. They don't compound the problem by trying live with their rapist. That's just not good enough. Sorry if my tone isn't nice about that, you don't have to agree.


This kind of hyperbolic, all or nothing extreme scenario does not promote any healing. This false dichotmoy that we expect a happy ending with unicorns or we make sure to castigate permanently is not rational. The actual real life of people lies somewhere in the middle.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

sokillme said:


> Maybe for one without infidelity in it that's true. However that idea completely ignores the trauma and damage done to the BS.
> 
> It's very hard to live with someone whose very presence is a source of pain? Whose missing presences causes panic attacks because they remember how effectively they were lied to and were easily fooled. Often times so much so that they don't even trust there own judgment? Who desperately wants to be with the imaginary image that the WS presented themselves as, when that's never who they were in the first place. Often realizing later that who the WS really is, is not anyone they would have dated let alone marry. Yet in many cases now they have kids with this person. The BS who has to make the terrible choice of being with someone they love and compromising their own personal values to do it. Knowing every day that you now have to accept a life that you would have never chosen in a million years. All of these feelings are reasonable and healthy for the BS to have. They also may never truly go away even if your WS is the most contrite.
> 
> You make it sound so easy, but the WS can do everything you say and that still doesn't in the end make a good marriage or a good life. It also doesn't address all the other stuff that the BS has to go through to even attempt to do it. Again a remorseful WS is only a requirement.


Where the heck did she make it sound easy??? You are choosing to see things this way. What is the end game of berating a remorseful WW?


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Post dday the BS deals with the trauma. The effect linger for a long time - perhaps a lifetime. Sometimes unexpected triggers, songs or movies that they can't listen to or watch any more. Does your WS get what they have done? Truly? For example can they watch a tv show on infidelity and not be bothered? A WS can talk about how they "see the destruction they have caused" but do they really get it? Feel it? Or are they just spectators saying the right things? I'm curious about your responses to this question.


I truly thinks he gets it. He felt it first himself. So why he would choose that for me, I'm not sure.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

katies said:


> I truly thinks he gets it. He felt it first himself. So why he would choose that for me, I'm not sure.


Probably BECAUSE he felt it first.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

katies said:


> *I truly thinks he gets it. He felt it first himself. *So why he would choose that for me, I'm not sure.


Thats my point. And didnt your perspective shift once you were the BS? Didnt you understand it better?


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

hoblob said:


> Mine felt regret and did the usual crap. She felt justified with her A because we (I) stopped being sexual with her and rejected her.
> But years after she’s “gotten it”
> I think that has a lot to do with maturing as a person. She legitimately feels disgust with her behavior and actions. She hates how she hurt me but also how she lacked integrity.
> 
> ...


How did you hurt her?


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

WasDecimated said:


> I voted No.
> 
> Although I don't speak to her, and haven't since the divorce, she knows what she did. She just doesn't care. To her, it was a means to the end. It was the path she had to take to become free to bang whoever she wanted without a husband or children getting in her way. She is a Compartmentalizer Extraordinaire so any guilty thought that may arise, is quickly overcome, locked up and buried.
> 
> She is on a quest for an elusive fantasy life where the $hit smells like roses.


Such damaged people will never get it I think. She sounds like a very damaged person.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Skm you never get over infidelity whether you reconcile or divorce
> 
> But you can learn to live with it... and you get to choose your own path of learning to live with it.
> 
> ...


If they are remorseful, of course. I think many remorseless waywards don't have any interest in taking it back.

ETA: I think you can get over it quicker if you divorce, since the main trigger is your spouse. Once they are gone, you heal way quicker. You find a new untainted relationship and soon the cheater is just a bad but distant memory. I know I would have never recovered if I'd stuck around, though it wasn't really a choice.

The only hard part is the obstacles in divorce. Child Custody and to a lesser extent Asset division. Thats why people that have only been married for less than 10 years and don't have children are in my view wasting their life by attempting to reconcile. There are so many better options out there than settling for a cheater. But I can understand it if there is a higher purpose like retiring comfortably or keeping the nuclear family intact. Even that isn't enough though many times.


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## Trumbull (May 2, 2018)

I think the people on here who have actually experienced infidelity knows about the pain and has a good idea if their spouse "gets" the damage caused. Without this experience, it is just speculation. The poll results do surprise me to some extent as I did not think there would be hardly any that answered "Yes". There is a pretty limited and biased group here. I think in real life, there are more people that have experienced infidelity and have moved on with their lives than we realize. 

Unfortunately, there are many people in this world who hurt others and never care. Infidelity is the ultimate hurt and betrayal that many will ever feel. Some people learn from their bad choices, and some never do. It is very obvious from some of our public officials that they never "get it". Yet, many overlook it and make excuses. So, to the general public, does infidelity no longer carry a stigma of poor character?

Character, honor, trust and loyalty are very important to me. So when my wife cheated I found it devastating and very difficult to decide my course of action. My wife "getting it" was very important to me. So, what is "getting it"? It is hard to describe, but, you know it when you see it.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

@Trumbull - do you think a spouse who has been betrayed gets it on a way deeper level than one who has not? I mean theorizing about something and experiencing it are two different things IMO.


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## Trumbull (May 2, 2018)

Truthseeker1 said:


> @Trumbull - do you think a spouse who has been betrayed gets it on a way deeper level than one who has not? I mean theorizing about something and experiencing it are two different things IMO.


Possibly, I think you are asking if the wayward would feel the pain more if they experienced a RA?

I do not think a WS needs to experience a RA to get it. A RA is bad on many levels. You damage your own character to have a RA. I think many WS somewhat expect it, so, no I do not think they feel the same level of pain. The WS already compromised their character, I think this in it self lowers the WS opinion of not only themselves but other also. So, they saw they were capable, so they are not caught off guard the way the original BS was in the initial affair.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Trumbull said:


> Possibly, I think you are asking if the wayward would feel the pain more if they experienced a RA?
> 
> I do not think a WS needs to experience a RA to get it. A RA is bad on many levels. You damage your own character to have a RA. I think many WS somewhat expect it, so, no I do not think they feel the same level of pain. The WS already compromised their character, I think this in it self lowers the WS opinion of not only themselves but other also. So, they saw they were capable, so they are not caught off guard the way the original BS was in the initial affair.


Thanks. I'm not sure i agree 100% but I see your points.


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## hoblob (Mar 28, 2018)

@Truthseeker1 - I cheated, flirted, sexted. I've stopped since, but a lot of it was in response to what she did. 
Over the past 5 to 6 years we've been a good couple. WE've both matured a lot. We're in our early 30s and communicate better and deal with our problems better. We both wish her cheating never happened in the first. 
I am not sure if I would have cheated without her having done it first. I did feel guilt, but also a justification.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

hoblob said:


> @Truthseeker1 - I cheated, flirted, sexted. I've stopped since, but a lot of it was in response to what she did.
> Over the past 5 to 6 years we've been a good couple. WE've both matured a lot. We're in our early 30s and communicate better and deal with our problems better. We both wish her cheating never happened in the first.
> I am not sure if I would have cheated without her having done it first. I did feel guilt, but also a justification.


Did she understand infidelity better when she was then on the receiving end? Did she understand what she had done more fully?


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

TDSC60 said:


> The reason I stayed was my two small kids. If I had found proof that it was physical (and I did some spying) she would be out the door immediately.


eventually the kids will grow up and out of the house and then what ? has she suddenly found a new source of love for you...when is it your time to be happy


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## hoblob (Mar 28, 2018)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Did she understand infidelity better when she was then on the receiving end? Did she understand what she had done more fully?


Honestly, I think she understood it really well a year or so after. She was disgusted with her behavior. It was something about the way she spoke about it. 
We didn't have a good relationship, we had only been dating a couple of years and I had checked out. I stopped having sex with her. She fell into a rut and was pursued and sought it out. I told her that she is free to go pursue this person cause I didn't want her. Anyway, after a short break up we decided to make it work. Over time, as she grew, got a good job, gained confidence and improved her self-esteem, she started to "get it". 
It was about the pain she caused me but also the integrity she lost through her actions.
Once I cheated, it wasn't so much that she "got it" more, but it was that she felt what i felt. Surprise, blindsided, humiliation, anger. I get when people say, it's not the same since they somehow caused it. But after a couple of years, you fall into a routine


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

hoblob said:


> Once I cheated, it wasn't so much that she "got it" more, but it was that she felt what i felt. Surprise, blindsided, humiliation, anger. I get when people say, it's not the same since they somehow caused it. But after a couple of years, you fall into a routine


That was what I was driving at - she felt what you felt. It gave her a greater understanding of what the Bs went through - not that infidelity is wrong but she felt what being a BS is all about.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Mrs. John Adams said:
> 
> 
> > I heard someone telling others they were "Lucky" it happened though.
> ...


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

I'm never going to understand how a RA is any better than the original offender. You become who you proclaim to have hurt you so much.


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## MyRevelation (Apr 12, 2016)

pidge70 said:


> I'm never going to understand how a RA is any better than the original offender. You become who you proclaim to have hurt you so much.


Just my perspective and anyone is free to disagree, but once the marriage contract is broken by the wayward, then the betrayed spouse is no longer bound by their vows. 

Now granted, in reality, it would likely complicate things further, but from a strictly right and wrong perspective, the payback wouldn't even be in the same class as the original offense.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Trumbull said:


> Possibly, I think you are asking if the wayward would feel the pain more if they experienced a RA?
> 
> I do not think a WS needs to experience a RA to get it. A RA is bad on many levels. You damage your own character to have a RA. I think many WS somewhat expect it, so, no I do not think they feel the same level of pain. The WS already compromised their character, I think this in it self lowers the WS opinion of not only themselves but other also. So, they saw they were capable, so they are not caught off guard the way the original BS was in the initial affair.


In a way the RA could just reinforce that the original affair wasn't such a big deal after all. At least the WS's mindset that everyone does it. This would be one of the reasons I would not do it. However I also feel like the agreement is over so I would divorce even if I intended to stay. But I doubt I could stay anyway. I also think this is different then a spouse who is all in on divorce and moves out but is waiting for the paperwork to go through. I have also read some folks who say, look you opened the marriage so now it's my turn. At least in this case they are not lying. I don't think it's a good strategy but it's not the same thing, and it is a consequence of infidelity. I understand the mindset.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MyRevelation said:


> Just my perspective and anyone is free to disagree, but once the marriage contract is broken by the wayward, then the betrayed spouse is no longer bound by their vows.
> 
> Now granted, in reality, it would likely complicate things further, but from a strictly right and wrong perspective, the payback wouldn't even be in the same class as the original offense.


This is my feeling as well. Marriage is the only contract I can think of where one person abandons the requirements and we expect the other to still uphold the tenants. However I still think it's a bad strategy and if you say you are all in you need to be all in.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

MyRevelation said:


> Just my perspective and anyone is free to disagree, but once the marriage contract is broken by the wayward, then the betrayed spouse is no longer bound by their vows.
> 
> Now granted, in reality, it would likely complicate things further, but from a strictly right and wrong perspective, the payback wouldn't even be in the same class as the original offense.



They are not in the same class at all. It is a form of payback for the initial offense. I get why a WS would not want to be a BS -it sucks. But any WS who would not grant the grace they are seeking is not great R material.


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

You’re assuming a lot. In my case, I never asked for grace. What I did is unforgivable.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

katies said:


> You’re assuming a lot. In my case, I never asked for grace. What I did is unforgivable.


What are your feelings about his affair? Do you think it was wrong? Was it warranted? Did it at all lessen your guilt?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

If my wife had sex outside our marriage and the reason was just to itch a scratch and nothing more (no feelings etc), I don’t think I would care. I would prefer if she didn’t tell me about it though, especially if she was absolutely sure that she still wanted to continue with the marriage. But I already said this perhaps one time too many...

There is something unhealthy about the ongoing self flagellation that seems to happen to some after cheating. I mean people make mistakes, they make amends, they move on and don’t keep going on and on about what a terrible person they are and what a horrible thing they did.

I understand taking about it can be cathartic etc but there’s a point where it becomes just self indulgent.

Cheating is really not the worst thing that can happen.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

All Affairs are wrong. Did nothing to assuage my guilt. He didn’t deserve what I did. Neither did I his. Two different things, in my head. And always has been, for years. 
Have never wavered on that. 
We are happily married now. Having a great life together.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> If my wife had sex outside our marriage and the reason was just to itch a scratch and nothing more (no feelings etc), I don’t think I would care. I would prefer if she didn’t tell me about it though, especially if she was absolutely sure that she still wanted to continue with the marriage. But I already said this perhaps one time too many...
> 
> There is something unhealthy about the ongoing self flagellation that seems to happen to some after cheating. I mean people make mistakes, they make amends, they move on and don’t keep going on and on about what a terrible person they are and what a horrible thing they did.
> 
> ...


What if some dude shot his load into your wife and later that night you performed oral on her?

What if that itch reoccurred every year or two, no feelings, she just needed some stud to hit those hard to reach spots?

What if you found out she got an STD and now you have warts all over your pecker?

What if she gets pregs and you get to raise another man's child?

Would you still be cool with it?


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Infidelity is wrong period

It solves nothing it only complicated the relationship even more

Trust me I am not more remorseful because John also cheated. 

Johns ra did not destroy me.. my own affair is what destroyed me. 

Sorry but you all are barking up the wrong tree here.

I deserved whatever happened to me because I cheated first.. I deserved divorce I deserved an ra

But his ra hurt him a lot more than it hurt me and quite honestly I don’t understand waywards who don’t get that. 

My affair not his is the one that haunts me

Yes his ra was his choice and he has to also live with his choice just like I do

Neither one is healthy for a relationship. 

John could have had a hundred affairs and still never paid me back for what I did to us. Why? Because I had already thrown us away. I had already taken away his self esteem. And his ra did not restore that for him. It just showed him that he was as capable of being immoral as I was.

So we are both equally flawed 

Now what?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

MyRevelation said:


> Just my perspective and anyone is free to disagree, but once the marriage contract is broken by the wayward, then the betrayed spouse is no longer bound by their vows.
> 
> Now granted, in reality, it would likely complicate things further, but from a strictly right and wrong perspective, the payback wouldn't even be in the same class as the original offense.


When I replace "RA" with "attempted homicide" in your perspective, I'm hard pressed to see the two as any different. Or perhaps you think of an RA as self-defense?

The two-wrongs-not-making-a-right seems to still be the better guideline, I think. Just like the advice to divorce your partner rather than cheat on them in the first place is sound, so too is the advice to divorce your cheater rather than take revenge. I have no problems with a BS deciding that an affair is a marriage-terminal offense, but once you decide to stick it out, do it with integrity and expect the same (plus a ****-ton of work) from your partner.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> What if some dude shot his load into your wife and later that night you performed oral on her?
> 
> What if that itch reoccurred every year or two, no feelings, she just needed some stud to hit those hard to reach spots?
> 
> ...


Probably not. But I would expect her to do it in a 'responsible' and discreet manner. And to at least use a wetwipe afterwards :scratchhead:


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Probably not. But I would expect her to do it in a 'responsible' and discreet manner. *And to at least use a wetwipe afterwards :scratchhead:*


OK that made me laugh out loud. lol


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> probably not. But i would expect her to do it in a 'responsible' and discreet manner. And to at least use a wetwipe afterwards :scratchhead:


hahahaha!


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> If my wife had sex outside our marriage and the reason was just to itch a scratch and nothing more (no feelings etc), I don’t think I would care. I would prefer if she didn’t tell me about it though, especially if she was absolutely sure that she still wanted to continue with the marriage. But I already said this perhaps one time too many...
> 
> There is something unhealthy about the ongoing self flagellation that seems to happen to some after cheating. I mean people make mistakes, they make amends, they move on and don’t keep going on and on about what a terrible person they are and what a horrible thing they did.
> 
> ...


This really explains your advice.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

sokillme said:


> This really explains your advice.


yeah I know. It's pure gold.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> If my wife had sex outside our marriage and the reason was just to itch a scratch and nothing more (no feelings etc), I don’t think I would care. I would prefer if she didn’t tell me about it though, especially if she was absolutely sure that she still wanted to continue with the marriage. But I already said this perhaps one time too many...
> 
> There is something unhealthy about the ongoing self flagellation that seems to happen to some after cheating. I mean people make mistakes, they make amends, they move on and don’t keep going on and on about what a terrible person they are and what a horrible thing they did.
> 
> ...


*Cheating is far inferior to the accompanying deceit!

That is truly the killer!*


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> *Cheating is far inferior to the accompanying deceit!
> 
> That is truly the killer!*


Exactly - its the decit and making your spouse look like a fool. Even when lying about your past to land a spouse - its about the lying more than your past. Some people dont get that.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

hoblob said:


> Honestly, I think she understood it really well a year or so after. She was disgusted with her behavior. It was something about the way she spoke about it.
> We didn't have a good relationship, we had only been dating a couple of years and I had checked out. I stopped having sex with her. She fell into a rut and was pursued and sought it out. I told her that she is free to go pursue this person cause I didn't want her. Anyway, after a short break up we decided to make it work. Over time, as she grew, got a good job, gained confidence and improved her self-esteem, she started to "get it".
> It was about the pain she caused me but also the integrity she lost through her actions.
> Once I cheated, it wasn't so much that she "got it" more, but it was that she felt what i felt. Surprise, blindsided, humiliation, anger. I get when people say, it's not the same since they somehow caused it. But after a couple of years, you fall into a routine


You were dating. You checked out, stopped being intimate with her and told her to pursue the person because you didn't want her. So why do you consider her behavior to be cheating?


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

I'd also like to ask the madhatters - which was worse being the WS or the BS?


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

Define worse. As hard as it is to trust again after you’ve had the rug ripped out from beneath you imagine if you were the one ripping it. 
I don’t trust him 100%. I should be able to trust myself though. It’s scarier to be a WS. It’s heartbreaking being a BS.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I'd also like to ask the madhatters - which was worse being the WS or the BS?


there is absolutely no doubt about it...my betrayal is much worse than his. MUCH worse. and I would even venture to say that perhaps THIS is the difference in true remorse. Not only did I betray him...I betrayed myself. I am better than this....I have more character than this. I was the one who said...I would NEVER cheat. Well...I proved to myself that i am capable of acting like an immoral person. I knocked my self right off of my high horse....all by myself...and I get to live with that knowledge about myself the REST of my life.

Had I not cheated...he would not have cheated. So while his choice is on him...it is still my betrayal that started the whole domino effect. He is responsible for his choice...but I don't blame him

There is no good reason to cheat....and I disapprove of infidelity, and while his RA hurt me....I know in my heart that mine hurt him more. For one thing...he did not have sex with her. He did not love her. He used her. Just like my OM used me... and he also gets to live with the knowledge that he is capable of being immoral...and I cannot remove that. No matter how much remorse i have...he is still responsible for what he did.

When I read about affairs that did not include intercourse...I find myself wishing that i could say that mine did not. Are there differences in affairs? Are some more severe than others? yes....but each person has to determine that for themselves.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

hoblob said:


> Honestly, I think she understood it really well a year or so after. She was disgusted with her behavior. It was something about the way she spoke about it.


I think it's a shame she feels that way, since she didn't do anything wrong.



hoblob said:


> We didn't have a good relationship, we had only been dating a couple of years and I had checked out. *I stopped having sex with her.* She fell into a rut and was pursued and sought it out. *I told her that she is free to go pursue this person cause I didn't want her.* Anyway, after a short break up we decided to make it work. Over time, as she grew, got a good job, gained confidence and improved her self-esteem, she started to "get it".


Considering the fact she didn't cheat on you at all, I wonder whether it was you or her that convinced her she did something wrong when she didn't?


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

Wow! I have been reading this thread. Much diversity of opinion for sure. Did my former wayward spouse get it? Indeed! We are at 21/2 years of r as of today. Reading what @Mrs. John Adams has posted if I did not know better, I would swear it was my FWW posting.

My wife has gone over and above for me since we decided to R, and she realizes the pain she inflicted on my by her actions. I was not really sure she got it until we were in a MC session where we were instructed to write letters to each other about the affair,my letter was how it made me feel, hers was to explain and apologize. My letter was 20pages long and while our MC read a a quote I had put in the letter from a book, she fell on the floor and cried and sobbed for 15 minutes. I knew then and there she was remorseful. Several nights and early mornings over the last two years I have woken up to hear her crying. She was crying for what she did to me and our marriage. She told me for a long time she felt like trash and could not believe she was capable of infidelity.

She thanks me for the gift of r frequently, and I am having a good second marriage.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

arbitrator said:


> *Cheating is far inferior to the accompanying deceit!
> 
> That is truly the killer!*


Maybe but it's not like those who are cheated on where the spouse then admits it are fine and dandy. I see it like stabbing in the heart and the twisting the knife or stabbing again.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> there is absolutely no doubt about it...my betrayal is much worse than his. MUCH worse. and I would even venture to say that perhaps THIS is the difference in true remorse. Not only did I betray him...I betrayed myself. I am better than this....I have more character than this. I was the one who said...I would NEVER cheat. Well...I proved to myself that i am capable of acting like an immoral person. I knocked my self right off of my high horse....all by myself...and I get to live with that knowledge about myself the REST of my life.
> 
> Had I not cheated...he would not have cheated. So while his choice is on him...it is still my betrayal that started the whole domino effect. He is responsible for his choice...but I don't blame him
> 
> ...


Did you love the OM? I thought you only knew him a short time.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

No I did not love the om I was speaking about John not me


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> One thing about reconciliation...you can at any time...divorce. So if you are not one who has to immediately get rid of the wayward...and you think you might be able to give them time...then trying and waiting...is the right answer for you.
> 
> *Waiting is still still DOING something. Not making a decision is still MAKING a decision.*


MJA,

Did you know you just quoted _Neil Peart from RUSH, Free Will,_ circa 1980...

*"If you choose not to decide, You still have made a choice."*

Very True Indeed.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

sokillme said:


> This really explains your advice.





inmyprime said:


> yeah I know. It's pure gold.


That word must mean something different on your side of the pond.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> If my wife had sex outside our marriage and the reason was just to itch a scratch and nothing more (no feelings etc), I don’t think I would care. I would prefer if she didn’t tell me about it though, especially if she was absolutely sure that she still wanted to continue with the marriage. But I already said this perhaps one time too many...


And if she _kept_ scratching?



inmyprime said:


> There is something unhealthy about the ongoing self flagellation that seems to happen to some after cheating. I mean people make mistakes, they make amends, they move on and don’t keep going on and on about what a terrible person they are and what a horrible thing they did.
> 
> I understand taking about it can be cathartic etc but there’s a point where it becomes just self indulgent.


Can’t make amends for a transgression without first confessing to it.



inmyprime said:


> Cheating is really not the worst thing that can happen.


Two things —

1. Cheating doesn’t _happen_.

2. Who cares?

Losing a limb, lung, or kidney isn’t the worst that could happen.

Being diagnosed with a incurable disease isn’t the worst thing that could happen.

Dying isn’t even the worst thing that could happen.

But no one wants any of that to happen.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I'd also like to ask the madhatters - which was worse being the WS or the BS?


Being the WS by far.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> Being the WS by far.


Why is that?


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> there is absolutely no doubt about it...my betrayal is much worse than his. MUCH worse. and I would even venture to say that perhaps THIS is the difference in true remorse. Not only did I betray him...I betrayed myself. I am better than this....I have more character than this. I was the one who said...I would NEVER cheat. Well...I proved to myself that i am capable of acting like an immoral person. I knocked my self right off of my high horse....all by myself...and I get to live with that knowledge about myself the REST of my life.
> 
> Had I not cheated...he would not have cheated. So while his choice is on him...it is still my betrayal that started the whole domino effect. He is responsible for his choice...but I don't blame him
> 
> ...


Had John had sex with her do you think it would have made it hurt more? or carried on a short term affair with her? In other words what he did was not exactly equal to what you did in your mind? For example if a WS has a PA and their spouse has an EA later on - is that really equal to the PA? In the last case I dont think so. What do you think?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Why is that?


Because I was obviously less a person than I thought I was.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> Because I was obviously less a person than I thought I was.


But you didnt have intercourse either right?


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Well you are asking me to speculate and I have learned that how we think we might react can be different from how we react in reality.

But in my mind...my betrayal is worse .. because I have to live with the reality of what I did. His transgression is not mine.

I honestly don’t think much about what he did... but I certainly think about what I did...

I have to live with the reality that I am capable of becoming a monster...


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

```

```



Truthseeker1 said:


> But you didnt have intercourse either right?


True. But that didn't matter to how guilty I felt.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> ```
> 
> ```
> True. But that didn't matter to how guilty I felt.


So in other words your wife had less to forgive? You seem like a good guy - dont beat yourself up.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Well you are asking me to speculate and I have learned that how we think we might react can be different from how we react in reality.
> 
> But in my mind...my betrayal is worse .. because I have to live with the reality of what I did. His transgression is not mine.
> 
> ...


Your posts to me show the love you have for John. I think we can all agree on that - even if we debate every thing else in this thread :wink2:


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Your posts to me show the love you have for John. I think we can all agree on that - even if we debate every thing else in this thread :wink2:


I do love him....and i know how badly i hurt him and i wish I could take that away...but I can't. I have to live with that....and unfortunately....so does he.

and whether we had divorced or reconciled...you still have to live with the damage.


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## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I do love him....and i know how badly i hurt him and i wish I could take that away...but I can't. I have to live with that....and unfortunately....so does he.
> 
> and whether we had divorced or reconciled...you still have to live with the damage.


In website forums for a person dealing with a spouse in serious melting down midlife crisis (which often comes when the person in MLC is already damaged from FOO issues or a lack of coping skills), the advice often given is that while some people reconcile and some wandering MLCers do come home, many do not precisely because they are not prepared to deal with the damage. They stay with their affair-down partners, both in punishment for their own choices and because they cannot deal with the damage they've done to others. To be strong enough to face the damage and acknowledge it, accept it, rebuild from it, live with it, but not let the bad choices define them, takes courage and strength. Not everyone has that capacity.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

TeddieG said:


> In website forums for a person dealing with a spouse in serious melting down midlife crisis (which often comes when the person in MLC is already damaged from FOO issues or a lack of coping skills), the advice often given is that while some people reconcile and some wandering MLCers do come home, many do not precisely because they are not prepared to deal with the damage. They stay with their affair-down partners, both in punishment for their own choices and because they cannot deal with the damage they've done to others. To be strong enough to face the damage and acknowledge it, accept it, rebuild from it, live with it, but not let the bad choices define them, takes courage and strength. Not everyone has that capacity.


The reality is...we are accountable for our choices...and we have to live with the outcome of those choices. But the most important part is...what did we learn? If I don't use the experience...good or bad...to become a better person...then I learned nothing.

I know that my bad choices do not define who I am.....but they have helped to shape the person I have become. I am damaged....but I am worthy.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Maybe but it's not like those who are cheated on where the spouse then admits it are fine and dandy. I see it like stabbing in the heart and the twisting the knife or stabbing again.



Yep, that’s why I tend to think that if you are really convinced you made a terrible mistake and still want the marriage, then make up for it (it that one can ever make up for it) being a better partner. Don’t twist the knife more than needed by telling and ruin the partners life. That’s what I would want anyway.

If, as you say, your husband has already fully forgiven you (MJA) then what else is there to talk about?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Well you are asking me to speculate and I have learned that how we think we might react can be different from how we react in reality.
> 
> But in my mind...my betrayal is worse .. because I have to live with the reality of what I did. His transgression is not mine.
> 
> ...


Is posting on here making that worse? Everyone is capable of being a monster maybe not cheating but in other ways. You are not the same women who did that, though it's rare people change, I think you have. You should forgive yourself. You have done your best to make amends and seems like you tried to pay restitution, even I with my opinions about R, don't believe that there is no forgiveness or redemption. If John has forgiven you and that was the injured party follow his lead.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GusPolinski said:


> And if she _kept_ scratching?


Then I would prefer it if she broke things off with me. But I still wouldn’t want to know about the details.




GusPolinski said:


> Can’t make amends for a transgression without first confessing to it.


Sure you can. Just be a better partner going forward. That’s an amend the BS will appreciate. Without having his/her world torn apart. 

I’m looking at it mainly from a pragmatic point of view rather than idealistic.

If MJA managed to hold it in and didn’t tell her husband about it, the only difference in the end result would have been that MJA herself would have probably felt a bit more ****ty about herself (because there would have been no release from telling). The husband otoh would not have been stabbed in the heart with that knowledge, he would not have cheated as revenge and he would still trust his wife 100%, love her and generally be a happy person.

There would not have been any of that drama.
It’s not the confession itself or the partner’s reaction after the confession that makes you realise you made a terrible mistake. 
I’m sure she knew pretty much the morning after the extent of what she did.




GusPolinski said:


> Two things —
> 
> 1. Cheating doesn’t _happen_.
> 
> ...



Sure it’s just so much time is spent going over the same ground. Surely MJA and hubby must be totally fine by now if all is forgiven.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Mine was a no. Not only does she not get it but would care less about the damage done to me and our daughters. She has cheated in all her realtionships I am aware of. From where I sit that’s just how WS are


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Yep, that’s why I tend to think that if you are really convinced you made a terrible mistake and still want the marriage, then make up for it (it that one can ever make up for it) being a better partner. Don’t twist the knife more than needed by telling and ruin the partners life. That’s what I would want anyway.
> 
> If, as you say, your husband has already fully forgiven you (MJA) then what else is there to talk about?
> 
> ...


The key to a successful relationship is communication. Forgiveness means no longer being angry...it does not mean forgetting.

We still discuss infidelity....we still discuss how we feel...we still discuss our relationship. We no longer discuss details...we no longer ask questions. WE have disclosed all the details. There comes a time when you no longer need to ask questions about them any longer. Having said that...if he wanted to ask me something...I would answer to the best of my ability. It has been 35 years....and my memory is not what it once was about details.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

sokillme said:


> Is posting on here making that worse? Everyone is capable of being a monster maybe not cheating but in other ways. You are not the same women who did that, though it's rare people change, I think you have. You should forgive yourself. You have done your best to make amends and seems like you tried to pay restitution, even I with my opinions about R, don't believe that there is no forgiveness or redemption. If John has forgiven you and that was the injured party follow his lead.


No posting here does not make anything worse....how can it be worse? Posting here does bring it to the forefront more. But you will notice the way i post. I don't over indulge...I usually stick with one thread and when i feel i can no longer contribute i shut up. I may not post for days or weeks or months.

I have forgiven myself....but I will never forget what i did....and there is a difference.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Then I would prefer it if she broke things off with me. But I still wouldn’t want to know about the details.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If MJA had been able to keep her mouth shut...she would have lived a lie the rest of her life...and who knows what that would have done to her or the relationship. 


See you are trying to speculate how the scenario would have turned out if we had done things differently....and that is impossible. All I can do is tell what actually happened.

I am the person I am...not the person you might speculate i could have been.

See...you obviously think you are the kind of person that can live with secrets. I am not. I am not saying you are wrong...I am saying you and I are obviously different.


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## MyRevelation (Apr 12, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> yeah I know. It's pure gold.


No, its complete nonsense, spouted by someone without a point of reference in their own life. You may have some value to this site in other forums, but when it comes to CWI, you only have uninformed opinion to offer, and most of us have first hand experience with how those change when actually faced with infidelity in our own lives.


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## hoblob (Mar 28, 2018)

When the wayward sees the betrayed engage in the same activities, the sneaking, the lying, etc. It kills them. Because it shows A) how duplicitous they were B) how fragile a relationship is C) because they know EXACTLY how you were feeling, how uninhibited it is and how wrong it is.

Look, I am not proud of what I did. I was angry, confused, immature, and pissed. I don't feel as bad as she does. I sort of understand her position at the time. LAck of sexual contact by me destroyed her self-esteem. I once got angry at her and she yelled back at me "I never rejected you sexually, never. I didn't do things with him that I wouldn't do with you. I want you to do whatever you want with me." (except, well you guys know what) but yeah. It really hit me. It's true. 
So when i cheated, it hurt her a lot because she had been emotionally and sexually there for me, and I still sought out someone else. Again, she always had a choice. The choice of dumping me (Which would have been legitimate) or communicating with me (which she sort of did) or just giving me an ultimatum. 

She may be a rare case. But every situation is different. Every relationship is different, which is why reading forums and posts etc can sometimes be detrimental.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> Then I would prefer it if she broke things off with me.


Why?

She still “loves you” and wants to “stay married” to you.

Come on, man... she’s just “scratching”!



inmyprime said:


> But I still wouldn’t want to know about the details.


No need for details if you’re divorcing.

My only exception to that is if she’d been banging a friend or relative.



inmyprime said:


> Sure you can.


I’ll stop you right there —

Nope.

Won’t bother with the rest of that section because it’s nothing but crap.

We avoid repeating transgressions by holding ourselves accountable for them, and that includes the people to which we are rightly held accountable — namely, _the person_ to which which we have _agreed_ to be accountable.

And accountability begins with honesty.



inmyprime said:


> Sure it’s just so much time is spent going over the same ground. Surely MJA and hubby must be totally fine by now if all is forgiven.


Anything can be forgiven: anything from an unkind word given in the heat of an argument all the way up to the worst thing that can “happen” to you.

But a thing can’t be forgiven if it’s not first brought to light.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> Mine was a no. Not only does she not get it but would care less about the damage done to me and our daughters. She has cheated in all her realtionships I am aware of. From where I sit that’s just how WS are


Yeah if she cheated all along then there is no hope for her. she is a serial cheater - one of the worst kinds of cheaters. She deserves to be alone. Does she have any relationship with your daughters? What at awful example to set for the kids.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

TeddieG said:


> In website forums for a person dealing with a spouse in serious melting down midlife crisis (which often comes when the person in MLC is already damaged from FOO issues or a lack of coping skills), the advice often given is that while some people reconcile and some wandering MLCers do come home, many do not precisely because they are not prepared to deal with the damage. They stay with their affair-down partners, both in punishment for their own choices and because they cannot deal with the damage they've done to others. To be strong enough to face the damage and acknowledge it, accept it, rebuild from it, live with it, but not let the bad choices define them, takes courage and strength. Not everyone has that capacity.


Great post. Many want to eithe rgu sweep or walk way from the damage they have caused. Do you think R lets the WS get away with it on some level?


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Well you are asking me to speculate and I have learned that how we think we might react can be different from how we react in reality.
> 
> But in my mind...my betrayal is worse .. because I have to live with the reality of what I did. His transgression is not mine.
> 
> ...


Fair enough I think if that is there is less to forgive there is a great chance for true R. For example a spouse who has a PA might be able to cope with a spouse who goes on to have a EA since there are no mind movies ,thoughts of them together, etc..


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Fair enough I think if that is there is less to forgive there is a great chance for true R. For example a spouse who has a PA might be able to cope with a spouse who goes on to have a EA since there are no mind movies ,thoughts of them together, etc..


while there was no sexual intercourse...it was still a physical affair. It was not an EA...because he used her and cared nothing for her..and i had my share of mind movies and triggers. Nothing compared to his I am sure...

I cannot speculate what my reaction would have been had things played out differently...but i can tell you my betrayal is what most bothers me...not because his was less or more...but because i am the one who has to live with the knowledge of what i did. I only have control of my own actions. I not only betrayed my husband...I betrayed myself...my own core values and expectations.

I am telling you what i am thinking and it does not need to be translated or transcribed or interpreted.

You asked which is worse to me...and mine is worse to me. It is that simple.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Great post. Many want to eithe rgu sweep or walk way from the damage they have caused. Do you think R lets the WS get away with it on some level?


Only if you have a presupposition that the only proper punishment for an affair is divorce. There are other ways to ensure that nothing is gotten away with. Given the extra scrutiny the WS gets from his partner for a very long time, if not forever, reconciliation may be more of a long term parole sentence than starting over fresh with someone else. 

Some countries cane you for stealing. Some cut off your hand. Are the ones who come out of it with two hands "getting away with it"?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> If MJA had been able to keep her mouth shut...she would have lived a lie the rest of her life...and who knows what that would have done to her or the relationship.
> 
> 
> See you are trying to speculate how the scenario would have turned out if we had done things differently....and that is impossible. All I can do is tell what actually happened.
> ...


I am only 'speculating' for the sake of others who might be reading and who are considering telling versus not telling. It's a big decision, not to be taken lightly. And pure honesty is a small consideration given what one is about to do to the partner.

Of course what happened in your life, happened and cannot be changed.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> yeah I know. It's pure gold.





MyRevelation said:


> No, its complete nonsense, spouted by someone without a point of reference in their own life. You may have some value to this site in other forums, but when it comes to CWI, you only have uninformed opinion to offer, and most of us have first hand experience with how those change when actually faced with infidelity in our own lives.


I guess sarcasm is lost on you.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

i am not sure i understand the mindset that somebody got away with something.

Look...My affair was horrific...and while i remained married...the damage is still there for the both of us.

I live with what i did everyday of my life...and so does he. Yes we have reconciled...yes we have a great life...but we both know that infidelity still lives in our relationship.

I am not sure what you think should happen to waywards...death by stoning? unhappy lives forever? Banished to the depths of hell to forever burn in the eternal fire? 

People make incredible horrible choices...and while we may not think they have "suffered" enough...as outsiders....we really have no idea how deep the scars run....

I have a wonderful life....John has a wonderful life....do neither of us deserve to the right to be happy? even though we cheated? And who are you to determine that?

I am not sure that I understand the mindset that others outside of my relationship get to pass judgement on what i deserve. Or get to say whether i have suffered enough for my transgressions.

I think we all need to be self reflective of all the things we have done wrong...and how we have grown from those choices....and stop judging everyone else based on our own opinions or speculations.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> I am only 'speculating' for the sake of others who might be reading and who are considering telling versus not telling. It's a big decision, not to be taken lightly. And pure honesty is a small consideration given what one is about to do to the partner.
> 
> Of course what happened in your life, happened and cannot be changed.


and this thread is NOT about telling or not telling. It is about do waywards ever get it?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> See...you obviously think you are the kind of person that can live with secrets. I am not. I am not saying you are wrong...I am saying you and I are obviously different.


I would only choose to live with a secret if I knew, rationally, that the secret would devastate my spouse more than it would benefit me or the marriage.


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## I shouldnthave (Apr 11, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> I would only choose to live with a secret if I knew, rationally, that the secret would devastate my spouse more than it would benefit me or the marriage.


But unless you are a seerer of the future - you won't know.

I would have never have guessed that working through my infidelity would strengthen our relationship.

I didn't realize what there was to fix until we faced it.

Before DD, me, miss rational would have told you keeping it to myself would be the best course of action.

But looking back, I know it wouldn't have been. I think eventually it would have broken us. But instead we took the difficult path of facing it head on.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> and this thread is NOT about telling or not telling. It is about do waywards ever get it?


Yes, and if I 'truly got it', I would want to spare my spouse the pain from telling. And expect her to do the same for me. Provided I knew she still truly loved me.
It's just a different view point.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Yes, and if I 'truly got it', I would want to spare my spouse the pain from telling. And expect her to do the same for me. Provided I knew she still truly loved me.
> It's just a different view point.


no.... it is a different subject


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## Trumbull (May 2, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Yes, and if I 'truly got it', I would want to spare my spouse the pain from telling. And expect her to do the same for me. Provided I knew she still truly loved me.
> It's just a different view point.


A view point without experience or knowledge.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I shouldnthave said:


> But unless you are a seerer of the future - you won't know.


Yes, you are right about that but I wouldn't want to take that chance in the first place.



I shouldnthave said:


> I would have never have guessed that working through my infidelity would strengthen our relationship.
> 
> I didn't release what there was to fix until we faced it.
> 
> ...


I think your situation is quite unique because you were both unfaithful and both arrived at roughly the same insight about the whole experience and after a lot of soul searching. If it was only you or him, you don't think there's a chance it could have broken you?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Trumbull said:


> A view point without experience or knowledge.


A view point nevertheless.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Mrs. John Adams said:
> 
> 
> > and this thread is NOT about telling or not telling. It is about do waywards ever get it?
> ...


Except for some God only knows reason you think your answer is the superior one.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

in my prime

If you want to discuss telling or not telling start a thread for it

This thread is about Wayward spouses...do they get it


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I shouldnthave said:


> But unless you are a seerer of the future - you won't know.


I think I know myself well enough to be able to judge that I am not confident I could forgive a one-off digression or not let it bother me. Therefore I can say fairly confidently that i would rather just not know.
The problem that many WSs suffer from is not seeking forgiveness from their partner, but they struggle with forgiving themselves, especially when they choose to remain in the marriage. In light of this, it would make even less sense telling their partner about it, because that won't help them with self-forgiveness.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> Except for some God only knows reason you think your answer is the superior one.


Not at all. Only an alternative. I think honesty is great, if you know your partner can take it. 
Most can't though. And I would probably count myself as one of them.


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## I shouldnthave (Apr 11, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Yes, you are right about that but I wouldn't want to take that chance in the first place.
> 
> I think your situation is quite unique because you were both unfaithful and both arrived at roughly the same insight about the whole experience and after a lot of soul searching. If it was only you or him, you don't think there's a chance it could have broken you?


Well it was only him at one point wasn't it?

Perhaps for us... The difference was.... Not to say it wasn't a big deal, it was. But unlike so many other stories I read about infidelity.

We didn't hate each other because of it, we didn't think that each other were monsters. Didn't think that the cheater was the worst person in the world. Didn't think cheating made someone totally despicable, worthless, any number of things I have heard BS's use to describe their cheating spouse.

No.... We were the same people. The same fallible people.

Here is the thing, cheating is a SYMPTOM of something else. You can hide the symptom for as long as you like, but as long as you do not address the cause (which can't be done unilaterally), then the disease can never be cured.

And I will add. I never intended to tell. I know I am a strange bird in that I did not struggle with any guilt (before D day). Honestly? I felt entitled. I felt like I was on the top of the world, I had life by the short hairs.

It wasn't until I saw the pain I caused that I understood. It wasn't until we faced it that not only could our relationship be patched, but strengthen.

If I never told... My guess is that we would have grown further apart, my entitlement would have progressed to resentment. There is no way that this little harmless secret wouldn't have slowly killed the beautiful parts of our relationship. Just the basics, the parts that do not really matter would be left. The deep intimacy, the vulnerability, the love would have been whittled away.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> I think I know myself well enough to be able to judge that I am not confident I could forgive a one-off digression or not let it bother me. Therefore I can say fairly confidently that i would rather just not know.
> The problem that many WSs suffer from is not seeking forgiveness from their partner, but they struggle with forgiving themselves, especially because they choose to remain in the marriage. In light of this, it would make even less sense telling their partner about it, because that won't help them with self-forgiveness.


I have tried to tell you more times than i can count that you do not know how you will react in a situation until you are in the situation. You can speculate all you want...but you truly have no idea until it happens to you.

This thread is did your WS ever truly get it....not about speculating whether or not you would tell about your infidelity.

Honestly...your speculations are not applicable. The poll is real time...as in this really happened to you.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Did you both manage to pinpoint what the underlying cause was in the end?




I shouldnthave said:


> Well it was only him at one point wasn't it?
> 
> Perhaps for us... The difference was.... Not to say it wasn't a big deal, it was. But unlike so many other stories I read about infidelity.
> 
> ...


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## I shouldnthave (Apr 11, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Did you both manage to pinpoint what the underlying cause was in the end?


Yes but it's not a simple answer. Things within us, things about the relationship, things that we were, or were not doing for each other.

A marriage is like a garden, and must be tended to - and we were letting the weeds grow in. 

Apathy, weren't appreciating each other enough. Weren't making sure we were the beacon, the light for each other, the cheer leader.

Identifing our own short comings, needing approval, attention, admiration. Love languages and what we each need from each other.

It was a process.... Figuring out what our needs actually were, and healthy, non distructive ways to meet them.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I have tried to tell you more times than i can count that you do not know how you will react in a situation until you are in the situation. You can speculate all you want...but you truly have no idea until it happens to you.
> 
> This thread is did your WS ever truly get it....not about speculating whether or not you would tell about your infidelity.
> 
> Honestly...your speculations are not applicable. The poll is real time...as in this really happened to you.


I am *not* discussing telling vs not telling. I already said that I wouldn't want to know so there's nothing to discuss in that regard.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I shouldnthave said:


> Well it was only him at one point wasn't it?
> 
> Perhaps for us... The difference was.... Not to say it wasn't a big deal, it was. But unlike so many other stories I read about infidelity.
> 
> ...


Did you not resent him for this period of time between his incident and yours, or felt betrayed? And would you have felt that 'entitlement', had he not cheated first?
I meant that if he remained the only one who was unfaithful, things might have tipped further out of balance and the relationship could perhaps have completely imploded as a result.

I could be wrong but it strikes me that the reason you 'came back down to earth' was because of *your* incident, not his.
That's what I meant that your case is not so typical.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Say you have an ONS and know it would never happen again....

Telling your spouse is a selfish act. Can't handle the guilt and instead burden your spouse with it. Not telling your spouse is a selfish act- not giving them a choice and risking they find out much much later when divorce is far less palatable.

So, just dont have an affair and you have nothing to worry about! Problem solved!


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## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

I shouldnthave said:


> Well it was only him at one point wasn't it?
> 
> Perhaps for us... The difference was.... Not to say it wasn't a big deal, it was. But unlike so many other stories I read about infidelity.
> 
> ...


 My h's sense of entitlement led to his resentment of me, which is why he plowed ahead and went on with his affair even after he confessed. But he confessed over the phone so he didn't have to see the pain he cause me, and that's why it was impossible to patch and repair our relationship. He had made up his mind and stayed the course, and didn't want to be bothered too much by his conscience. But shortly after he confessed and we agreed he'd move out and get an apartment (he'd led me to believe that the thing with the OW was a one-night stand, but because he worked with her there continued to be contact and temptation), he did call me and blubber into the phone about the fact that I didn't deserve what he had done (and was still doing) . . . but it wasn't about any desire on his part to repair our relationship.


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## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Great post. Many want to eithe rgu sweep or walk way from the damage they have caused. Do you think R lets the WS get away with it on some level?


I posted in response to I_ShouldntHave first, because it helps explain the answer I am going to give you now. For most of the saga with my story, I had not found TAM. I was hanging out in MLC websites, and the answer there was to do nothing, other than detach and remove yourself from the infidelity. The formula here at TAM is file, and be prepared to lose your marriage in the hopes of saving it. One of the things I learned is that hope is one thing and expectations are another. I had no expectations that things were going to end the way I wanted them to, but a) I wanted no regrets looking back and b) I was not going to file. If he wanted out of the marriage, he could do the actual real heavy-lifting, not the crawling around in the dark like a cockroach cheating on me. I was going to be damned sure he did not mouth off about me divorcing him and him being a victim, especially to his family. 

Every website dealing with MLC or infidelity or divorce busting has an ethos. It is almost a formula. MLC sites say, set boundaries, detach, but don't issue an ultimatum you're not prepared to act on, and sit back and wait. It's like the 180 described here, but it is short of the position that TAM takes on the divorce filing. On MLC sites, the primary reason for advising against rushing to divorce (unless you need to in order to secure your financial position or that of the children whose well-being you are still responsible for) is to give people, usually men, time to let the affair play out, the headiness of the secrecy to dissolve, and the person to come to his or her senses. 

But I think the point that @Mrs John Adams is trying to make is that there is no formula for reconciliation. And of course there are people who thought they were reconciling, only to find they were in false R's because the spouse was still seeing the AP. 

All I can say is, I had friends telling me that my h would see the light and would return, and based on his behavior and what they knew of MLC behaviors (and the ironic thing there is, if they're not home in two years, it is going to be a long long long time, if at all). It is very possible that my ex is turning in the direction of, after licking his wounds with OW, broaching the prospect of reconciliation. The problem is, the only reconciliation I can foresee for us is being friends, hanging out for lunch occasionally or going to the lake or having drinks or coffee on the back porch. Remarriage? Nope. Why? I told him, when he pressed me for divorce, that I was prepared to ride out the mental and physical consequences of the damage the lousy doctor did to his penis when he took the stent out (the one he had put in to prevent a huge kidney stone from passing). I wanted him to deal with the physical damage rationally, by finding a good doctor, not finding a ***** to **** to fix his broken body part. I told him that while I was prepared to ride out just about anything because of the vows that I took, if he divorced me, I was done. Something in me, I told him, would break irrevocably and irretrievably. 

He divorced me. Less than two years after doing that and marrying the *****, he is in a huge rush to divorce her now. 

I don't know that I think every reconciliation with a WS involves rugsweeping, I suspect it is possible that in any relationship, the BS is able to say, perhaps after learning about boundaries (meaning, I can't control your behavior, but I will tell you that THIS behavior is unacceptable and if you continue in it, I will leave), confidently and assertively that THIS is the line you cannot cross without me leaving. I left him emotionally the day the divorce was final. 

But as you know, he came and went many times. His OW was an addiction and every time he thought he could leave her, and came back to me, he was an open book; his cell phone was available and without a pass code, and he called me to tell me where he was going, where he would be, when he planned to be back . . . he knows the drill, he knows what is required for a reconciliation. 

But in MLC circles, the term "restoration" is used, restoration of the marriage. My x and I have reconciled, in that we're friends and have occasional chats to bring each other up to the date on the family on both sides we shared for 20 years, or just to chat. The ironic thing is, my biggest gripe, in my job, in my circle of friends, is that no one listens to me; I live an unheard life. But he used to listen. He said once after leaving that one of the things he missed the most was our conversations about politics, the state of the world, conspiracy theories, on the back porch over a beer or a cup of coffee. I miss that too. He heard me; he listened. Right now he is in the throes of the mania and exhilaration that I am told by women whose MLC husbands come home accompanies the freedom of breaking free of the affair partner. 

But it doesn't mean he will come back to me. I don't expect him to, but even if he tried, I'm not sure I'd have the enthusiasm for it. But just as with everything, you never what you'll do until the opportunity presents itself. Still, I'm pretty sure that if we were monogamous and committed, he'd have his house and I'd have mine, and there won't be another marriage. Perhaps you could call it friends with benefits.


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## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Great post. Many want to eithe rgu sweep or walk way from the damage they have caused. Do you think R lets the WS get away with it on some level?


I posted in response to @I shouldnthave first, because it helps explain the answer I am going to give you now. For most of the saga with my story, I had not found TAM. I was hanging out in MLC websites, and the answer there was to do nothing, other than detach and remove yourself from the infidelity. The formula here at TAM is file, and be prepared to lose your marriage in the hopes of saving it. One of the things I learned is that hope is one thing and expectations are another. I had no expectations that things were going to end the way I wanted them to, but a) I wanted no regrets looking back and b) I was not going to file. If he wanted out of the marriage, he could do the actual real heavy-lifting, not the crawling around in the dark like a cockroach cheating on me. I was going to be damned sure he did not mouth off about me divorcing him and him being a victim, especially to his family. 

Every website dealing with MLC or infidelity (SI or TAM or others) or divorce busting has an ethos. It is almost a formula. MLC sites say, set boundaries, detach, but don't issue an ultimatum you're not prepared to act on, and sit back and wait. It's like the 180 described here, but it is short of the position that TAM takes on the divorce filing. On MLC sites, the primary reason for advising against rushing to divorce (unless you need to in order to secure your financial position or that of the children whose well-being you are still responsible for) is to give people, usually men, time to let the affair play out, the headiness of the secrecy to dissolve, and the person to come to his or her senses. 

But I think the point that @Mrs John Adams is trying to make is that there is no formula for reconciliation. And of course there are people who thought they were reconciling, only to find they were in false R's because the spouse was still seeing the AP. 

All I can say is, I had friends telling me that my h would see the light and would return, and based on his behavior and what they knew of MLC behaviors (and the ironic thing there is, if they're not home in two years, it is going to be a long long long time, if at all). It is very possible that my ex is turning in the direction of, after licking his wounds with OW, broaching the prospect of reconciliation. The problem is, the only reconciliation I can foresee for us is being friends, hanging out for lunch occasionally or going to the lake or having drinks or coffee on the back porch. Remarriage? Nope. Why? I told him, when he pressed me for divorce, that I was prepared to ride out the mental and physical consequences of the damage the lousy doctor did to his penis when he took the stent out (the one he had put in to prevent a huge kidney stone from passing). I wanted him to deal with the physical damage rationally, by finding a good doctor, not finding a ***** to **** to fix his broken body part. I told him that while I was prepared to ride out just about anything because of the vows that I took, if he divorced me, I was done. Something in me, I told him, would break irrevocably and irretrievably. 

He divorced me. Less than two years after doing that and marrying the *****, he is in a huge rush to divorce her now. 

I don't know that I think every reconciliation with a WS involves rugsweeping, I suspect it is possible that in any relationship, the BS is able to say, perhaps after learning about boundaries (meaning, I can't control your behavior, but I will tell you that THIS behavior is unacceptable and if you continue in it, I will leave), confidently and assertively that THIS is the line you cannot cross without me leaving. I left him emotionally the day the divorce was final. 

But as you know, he came and went many times. His OW was an addiction and every time he thought he could leave her, and came back to me, he was an open book; his cell phone was available and without a pass code, and he called me to tell me where he was going, where he would be, when he planned to be back . . . he knows the drill, he knows what is required for a reconciliation. 

But in MLC circles, the term "restoration" is used, restoration of the marriage. My x and I have reconciled, in that we're friends and have occasional chats to bring each other up to the date on the family on both sides we shared for 20 years, or just to chat. The ironic thing is, my biggest gripe, in my job, in my circle of friends, is that no one listens to me; I live an unheard life. But he used to listen. He said once after leaving that one of the things he missed the most was our conversations about politics, the state of the world, conspiracy theories, on the back porch over a beer or a cup of coffee. I miss that too. He heard me; he listened. Right now he is in the throes of the mania and exhilaration that I am told by women whose MLC husbands come home accompanies the freedom of breaking free of the affair partner. 

But it doesn't mean he will come back to me. I don't expect him to, but even if he tried, I'm not sure I'd have the enthusiasm for it. But just as with everything, you never what you'll do until the opportunity presents itself. Still, I'm pretty sure that if we were monogamous and committed, he'd have his house and I'd have mine, and there won't be another marriage. Perhaps you could call it friends with benefits.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

TeddieG said:


> Truthseeker1 said:
> 
> 
> > Great post. Many want to eithe rgu sweep or walk way from the damage they have caused. Do you think R lets the WS get away with it on some level?
> ...


Nobody should ever let an affair play out. If your spouse is still in the affair whether physically or emotionally, every minute you dont file, is a minute you were a willing ****. Waiting for an affair to play out is possibly the worse idea anyone can do.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

OK everyone I am going to a religious question now which if you don't care about such things will probably be annoying or seem weird. If so try to think of it as just a philosophical question, or ignore it. I get that this is not a religious forum. 

@Mrs. John Adams I want to ask you these questions. Though we have had strong posts I hope you will humor me with a reply. I ask because I respect your earnestness and your recovery. I have NO doubt that you have tried to make amends for what you did. You also are a Christian and I get the sense that right and wrong are important to you. Honestly I doubt we feel very different about a lot of things. I wonder if your experience can help me. I get that maybe you would rather say the hell with you, because you and I have our differences. I understand if you do, but this is a real earnest question though, and I think you are in a unique position to give me some insight. I actually have grown to really respect you even though you probably think I don't, or you don't care what I think is more like it. 

So let me set it up by saying one of the things I really struggle with in stories of reconciliation is the lack of justice. Now I know you can give me the typical Christian response of, well we all are sinners and I get that idea from a philosophical point of view but from a visceral one I don't really think it's the same. There is some biblical idea to this too. In the sense that certain sins are listed as abominations and all that. 

Anyway reading @drifting on story really caused me a crisis of faith in a way. I posted about this the first time I read about it. In the sense that his love for his WS and his kids who are not biologically his is a very clear example of Jesus' love for the sinner and really a great example of that. It's a sacrificial love, and since his wife had changed as far as we know there is no ongoing abuse. He even admits that it is a struggle, but he chooses to do it only because of his love of his wife and kids. So as a Christian I should feel that this is a great story of redemption. However the terrible injustice of finding out two years later that the kids whom you were led to believe were biologically yours were really another man's just seems such a monstrous thing to do to someone. I can only see it as a grave injustice and tragedy, it actually makes me more angry then anything else. (This is nothing I have not said to D.O. by the way and I mean no disrespect.) 

However I feel it is wrong for me to feel this way because I am rejecting the basic tenant of my faith. One of the things I like the most about Christianity is that it is freely given to everyone as a gift of forgiveness. But not just forgiveness but the removal of consequences. This has also led me to wonder if there really is any justice in Christianity. Like if the worst sinner can ask for forgiveness and be saved where is there justice at all? Yet the Bible says many times that God love justice. How can I have such diametrically apposing views about something that I try to follow in my own life, base my salvation on it. Anyway it something I have not worked out. Where I am now is that maybe it's OK that it makes me angry and it's true that it's a grave injustice but that doesn't mean that forgiveness isn't the right thing. But then were is the justice? Don't get me wrong I can earnestly say I believe in forgiveness. So you have been so honest about your struggles about being on the other side of this I am looking for your perspective. 

All that said here is my question or questions. 

Before everything went down, what were your thoughts on infidelity?

Did you have any experience with it?

What were your thoughts on sin and justice?

After it happened how did your thoughts change?

How about after you finally got it, did that change your feeling further?

I personally feel there is no justice in infidelity, and that is a very hard thing to take. I guess that could be said about other terrible things that people do to each other, but in the case of people who stay together this is particularity evident. There are other situations like this, parent who abuses a child and such. But in this case we are talking about the gravest of emotional injuries and then the most intimate of relationship afterwords. The two thinks are just polar opposites. So in that sense injustice seems very stark, do you or you husband struggle with this?

Do you have even the slightest feeling that you got away with something by still having your husband with you?

Is that a struggle?

I guess the over all question is how do you think about justice after doing something that you admit has no real way of having a true just outcome? And yet you benefit from that fact even though I get the sense that you wish you could make it somehow more just or fair. 

Or do you think that at all?

How has that changed your thoughts about Christianity?

What are your thoughts on my struggle? I suspect you may have a more complete view of this as your experiences.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

TeddieG said:


> I posted in response to @I shouldnthave first, because it helps explain the answer I am going to give you now. For most of the saga with my story, I had not found TAM. I was hanging out in MLC websites, and the answer there was to do nothing, other than detach and remove yourself from the infidelity. The formula here at TAM is file, and be prepared to lose your marriage in the hopes of saving it. One of the things I learned is that hope is one thing and expectations are another. I had no expectations that things were going to end the way I wanted them to, but a) I wanted no regrets looking back and b) I was not going to file. If he wanted out of the marriage, he could do the actual real heavy-lifting, not the crawling around in the dark like a cockroach cheating on me. I was going to be damned sure he did not mouth off about me divorcing him and him being a victim, especially to his family.
> 
> Every website dealing with MLC or infidelity (SI or TAM or others) or divorce busting has an ethos. It is almost a formula. MLC sites say, set boundaries, detach, but don't issue an ultimatum you're not prepared to act on, and sit back and wait. It's like the 180 described here, but it is short of the position that TAM takes on the divorce filing. On MLC sites, the primary reason for advising against rushing to divorce (unless you need to in order to secure your financial position or that of the children whose well-being you are still responsible for) is to give people, usually men, time to let the affair play out, the headiness of the secrecy to dissolve, and the person to come to his or her senses.
> 
> ...


My question to you is why don't you think you deserve better? Your ex sounds like an abusive *******. Why would you want him, like he is some prize? Or even a loss? Do you really think this is the best for you out there? Why is that? What you describe is a terribly emotionally abusive manipulative man who has no concern for how he is hurting you. But you seem to have no concern for your own hurt as well? 

We all have a responsibility to protect the innocent, that includes yourself.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

sokillme said:


> OK everyone I am going to a religious question now which if you don't care about such things will probably be annoying or seem weird. If so try to think of it as just a philosophical question, or ignore it. I get that this is not a religious forum.
> 
> @Mrs. John Adams I want to ask you these questions. Though we have had strong posts I hope you will humor me with a reply. I ask because I respect your earnestness and your recovery. I have NO doubt that you have tried to make amends for what you did. You also are a Christian and I get the sense that right and wrong are important to you. Honestly I doubt we feel very different about a lot of things. I wonder if your experience can help me. I get that maybe you would rather say the hell with you, because you and I have our differences. I understand if you do, but this is a real earnest question though, and I think you are in a unique position to give me some insight. I actually have grown to really respect you even though you probably think I don't, or you don't care what I think is more like it.
> 
> ...




Keep following that thought and you’ll end up where most atheists inevitably end up. Why do you think Christianity is the most popular religion? Because it is true or because it suits most people’s life styles the most? Because you can always be forgiven for any sin you ever commit, with no consequences, and still get the ticket to heaven. As long as one is the ‘sinner’ (and most of us are, in one way or another) it’s the most brilliant idea ever invented but when you are trying to vouch for fairness and justice: not so brilliant anymore somehow.

Maybe drifting on is the Jesus equivalent in the infidelity world; he had to suffer so much that now all the WSs feel like they can be forgiven 

I’m sure MJA will have a concise reply to explain how naive you are for thinking that there were no consequences.

What makes no sense to me is the continuous self flagellation (for over 35 years now?); she knew her husband would divorce her (because he told her that he would, if he ever found out that she cheated), she then proceeded to tell him anyway. A rational thing to do would have been to divorce him first after the incident (to set him free) or not tell him. Unless she wanted to know if he meant what he said? 

I don’t quite get that part. The whole thing almost feels like a deep seated need or repression to be punished for something. But because husband has actually forgiven her (according her) and not ‘punished’ her as such, this need went unfulfilled and comes out as excessive self flagellation for so many years.
Yes I know I can’t possibly know what really is going on but you present your story and that’s my first impression. which may be wrong.

People make mistakes and move on and forget about these things. This really is not the same category as some of the other stories on CWI where kids are involved and elaborate deception goes on for years (drifting on story etc). This is more like the movie Brief Encounter. 


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

"continuous self flagellation"

I don't see this in any of MJA's posts. She is just honest. I'm sure she doesn't walk around doing life feeling awful about it all the time. 

the getting away with it thing bothers me. So, you have a spouse that will occasionally have pain from the affair, less the further away from it but screaming pain close to DDay. And the couple stays together. And you think the WS got away with it? Watching your spouse in pain is getting away with it? Watching your spouse throw away their own values is getting away with it?
I think about what I did every single day. IT impacts our lives every day usually in some small way. But we chose to stay together and chose to be happy. WE're not getting away with anything. We saved something very very precious, that's how we think of it.
My IC friend told us we are a testament to maintaining a marriage after tragedy.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Before everything went down, what were your thoughts on infidelity?
*I was a holier than thou fundamental conservative judgmental Christian. I believed that Adultery was asin....not unforgivable.. but a sin*

Did you have any experience with it?* I am sure there was probably infidelity among family members or family friends...but none that was discussed in my presence. I got married at 17....so my "world view" was pretty limited. My life consisted of Family, church and school. After I married...my life still consisted of Family and church.*

What were your thoughts on sin and justice? *Sin of any kind is forgivable. I don't think I thought much about justice.*

After it happened how did your thoughts change? *After I committed adultery...I fell from my self righteous goody goody high horse. If I could cheat...ANYONE could cheat.*

How about after you finally got it, did that change your feeling further? *After I truly understood remorse...my feelings have changed tremendously. I have much more compassion for others, I have much more patience with others, I am non judgmental of others, I am accepting of others.*

Do you have even the slightest feeling that you got away with something by still having your husband with you? *No*

Is that a struggle?*no*

I guess the over all question is how do you think about justice after doing something that you admit has no real way of having a true just outcome? And yet you benefit from that fact even though I get the sense that you wish you could make it somehow more just or fair. *I don't think about justice at all. I don't wish I could make it more fair...I wish I had not committed adultery*

Or do you think that at all?

How has that changed your thoughts about Christianity? *I am probably more "Christ like" in my thoughts now than I have ever been because I think I now understand much of Christ's REAL purpose. He did not come to judge...he came to LOVE*

What are your thoughts on my struggle? *You worry too much about judging everyone else instead of accepting them as they are. *


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Keep following that thought and you’ll end up where most atheists inevitably end up. Why do you think Christianity is the most popular religion? Because it is true or because it suits most people’s life styles the most? Because you can always be forgiven for any sin you ever commit, with no consequences, and still get the ticket to heaven. As long as one is the ‘sinner’ (and most of us are, in one way or another) it’s the most brilliant idea ever invented but when you are trying to vouch for fairness and justice: not so brilliant anymore somehow.
> 
> Maybe drifting on is the Jesus equivalent in the infidelity world; he had to suffer so much that now all the WSs feel like they can be forgiven
> 
> ...


 First of all...I did not make a mistake...I made a choice. The difference is that a mistake is not necessarily intentional...and trust me...committing adultery is intentional. I made the choice to cheat.

Second...I have explained this to you many times and you do not understand it...but i will try once more. I confessed my infidelity because i believed it was the RIGHT thing to do.Regardless of the outcome....I believe that my husband had the choice to divorce me. Had I not told him...I would have taken away HIS right to divorce me. 

Third...I do not feel sorry for myself...nor do I punish myself. I express my opinions on a forum...I tell the truth as honestly as I can. If you read what I write and interpret what i say as self flagellation...you really don't get it. But I understand that...because you really have no idea what you are talking about since you are here as a spectator and I am here as a participant.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

katies said:


> "continuous self flagellation"


I know. It’s possible I’m misreading it. This is how it reads to me but I know it’s hard to get an accurate picture of the situation and person from written text.
It happened to me that the most obnoxious sounding people in email actually turn out pretty nice IRL...



katies said:


> I don't see this in any of MJA's posts. She is just honest. I'm sure she doesn't walk around doing life feeling awful about it all the time.
> 
> the getting away with it thing bothers me. So, you have a spouse that will occasionally have pain from the affair, less the further away from it but screaming pain close to DDay. And the couple stays together. And you think the WS got away with it? Watching your spouse in pain is getting away with it? Watching your spouse throw away their own values is getting away with it?
> I think about what I did every single day. IT impacts our lives every day usually in some small way. But we chose to stay together and chose to be happy. WE're not getting away with anything. We saved something very very precious, that's how we think of it.
> My IC friend told us we are a testament to maintaining a marriage after tragedy.



I don’t think it was me who said that anybody is ‘getting away’ with anything...I think it’s tough for both (if both decide to stay together). But it’s still much tougher for the BS (if they know about it).

I think what people without this experience find hard to reconcile is how the thinking can change so radically (allowing yourself to have this digression and then regretting it so much). The only way it makes sense to me is accepting that we are not always able to use the rational mind for those decisions (especially when it comes to biologically driven decisions). It’s nothing to do with being a bad or good person, having morals vs not have morals: people just can’t seem to want to acknowledge the simple truism that biology often drives the rational part of us, and not the other way around. It doesn’t mean we are out of control, just that control is sometimes VERY hard to maintain. Cheating is not the only time when this is so apparent.


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## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Nobody should ever let an affair play out. If your spouse is still in the affair whether physically or emotionally, every minute you dont file, is a minute you were a willing ****. Waiting for an affair to play out is possibly the worse idea anyone can do.


I'm just telling you what other websites and forums out there are saying. I knew our marriage was over the day he confessed. And he moved out. I knew we were done. And he filed shortly thereafter, but didn't go through with it that time, not because he wanted to come back to me but because he was aware of the problems with her. It's a long story that involves some mental illness, some dementia, some physical issues from a clumsy doctor, not necessarily in that order. But I knew we were over, and he was gone. When and how the divorce happened was kind of a moot point. When he was ready to file, we actually had our attorneys work on the settlement, and both of us were calm and rational about it.


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## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

sokillme said:


> My question to you is why don't you think you deserve better? Your ex sounds like an abusive *******. Why would you want him, like he is some prize? Or even a loss? Do you really think this is the best for you out there? Why is that? What you describe is a terribly emotionally abusive manipulative man who has no concern for how he is hurting you. But you seem to have no concern for your own hurt as well?
> 
> We all have a responsibility to protect the innocent, that includes yourself.


I DON'T want him back. And yes, he had no concern for how he was hurting me. At the time this happened, I had a demanding job and was in an advanced degree program, and I needed to protect those two things, and not be distracted by who divorced whom. After he confessed, I asked him to move out, he continued the affair with the OW, and he divorced me and married her. I needed him to do his own heavy lifting on his choices because I had two things (and later three, when my mother was diagnosed with cancer), that were going to determine my future, and I needed to focus on those. I am just saying that if there were ANY hypothetical situation in which there would be anything LIKE resembling reconciliation, that's what it would look like - living apart, spending time together. Lots of people have ended up with reconciliations like that. But I do not anticipate him asking for any kind of reconciliation (I've even told his family I hope he meets a nice woman in his home state who will love and enjoy his kids and grandkids with him), but even if he did, the answer would be no. But it is't going to happen. 

In a sense, though, I'm contrasting my experience with that of @Mrs John Adams or @I shouldnthave. They were still married, they did not separate from their spouse, they told the truth and wanted to work on the marriage. In my ex's case, he confessed, and gave me the impression it was a short-term thing, and yet for me, when that turned out not to be true, when he moved into an apartment within walking distance of her house, I could read the cards. 

I think the experience of Mrs. John Adams and others who confessed early and stayed in the marriage support the ethos of TAM, where the advice is to file quickly and early, and prepare to lose your marriage in order to save it. But that only works if the cheating partner is capable of realizing what will be lost, and also how much work will be required to repair. My h didn't care about any of those things at the time. Filing or not would have made little difference, and filing myself would simply have distracted me from other, at the time important, and given the likelihood of him leaving, even more important, issues than when precisely our already dead marriage legally ended.

The MLC websites suggest holding out for various reasons, including the potential that the WS could see the light, have remorse, and want to work on the relationship, in ways that MJA and ISH have described here. The basic premise is, if you don't know what to do, do nothing, other than detach, secure your financial situation (and in some cases women and their children are left in financial difficulty in case of divorce, so sometimes they need time to sort some things out), etc. Some of, most of, the MLC websites are based in Christian values and saving a marriage and honoring vows. I was surprised to discover the degree to which I took my vows seriously, and I did perceive my husband to be suffering from physical and mental health issues that I thought were impairing his judgment. But at the same time, I thought a better approach would have been to stay on the anti-depressants the doctor prescribed and see a specialist about the broken penis, not find a younger model to make the soldier salute. So I was a mix of compassion and empathy, as well as disgust and disappointment. But as I said, I knew when he said he'd cheated that he was leaving and we were done. Because I took my vows seriously, and thought he did too, the betrayal came as a huge shock to my system. All I wanted to do was manage everything I had on my plate and not let his actions derail my attention from other important things that had import for me, more import than whether or not my marriage survived.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> First of all...I did not make a mistake...I made a choice. The difference is that a mistake is not necessarily intentional...and trust me...committing adultery is intentional. I made the choice to cheat.


I understand but that’s where we disagree. I view a one off digression as a mistake. It’s a ‘spare of the moment’ thing. I think that’s why you are having such a hard time coming to terms with it. People are imperfect and make mistakes from time to time. They usually learn form those mistakes and don’t repeat them in future. They do distinguish between degrees of murder in courts too. It’s the same principle. You didn’t INTEND to hurt your husband but it happened.




Mrs. John Adams said:


> Second...I have explained this to you many times and you do not understand it...but i will try once more. I confessed my infidelity because i believed it was the RIGHT thing to do.Regardless of the outcome....I believe that my husband had the choice to divorce me. Had I not told him...I would have taken away HIS right to divorce me.


I wasn’t talking about telling or not telling. Don’t steer the conversation that way. I said that I found it illogical that you didn’t just go ahead and divorce him after the incident since he clearly told you that if he was ever to find out that you were unfaithful, he would divorce you. I assume you would believe his words?





Mrs. John Adams said:


> Third...I do not feel sorry for myself...nor do I punish myself. I express my opinions on a forum...I tell the truth as honestly as I can. If you read what I write and interpret what i say as self flagellation...you really don't get it. But I understand that...because you really have no idea what you are talking about since you are here as a spectator and I am here as a participant.



You tell a story, people have the right to have opinions about it. Facts don’t change but perception will different from person to person depending who reads it. Do you understand the difference? I have experience with cheating (not while married) so can you quit telling me that I cannot have an opinion about it. And even if I didn’t have experience with cheating, it doesn’t make one incapable having an opinion about a ‘common sense’ life situation.
It’s about a betrayal and everyone has been betrayed to some degree in their life. You can say that I wouldn’t know how it ‘feels’ because I’m not you or your husband and you would be correct. However I’m not telling you how you ‘feel’, im just stating how your story and your general tone and attitude comes across, given what you have written.




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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

katies said:


> "continuous self flagellation"
> 
> I don't see this in any of MJA's posts. She is just honest. I'm sure she doesn't walk around doing life feeling awful about it all the time.
> 
> ...


Thank you Katie....and I am bothered by the same thing.

When you commit adultery...whether you divorce or reconcile...it is a life changing event. I suppose there are some people in this world not bothered by conscience....some people who are able to never hold themselves accountable for their actions....some people who use others for their own gain ....some people who never experience regret...and maybe this kind of individual does not experience pain for the things they have done wrong....but I am not one of those people.

I have a strong sense of right and wrong...a strong moral compass...strong ethics. I hold myself accountable for my choices and decisions...especially if I have somehow wronged or hurt someone else and that someone else is someone I love very much. 

I am grateful that i have experienced forgiveness...but I don't believe that forgiveness means forgetting...and I know that as humans...even though we have been forgiven...we still KNOW what we did and we live with that knowledge forever. 

If you "get away" with something...it means you committed a transgression and feel no regret for it. For example...If I go into a store and I steal a candy bar...and i eat that candy bar and no one ever finds out and if I tell myself...HAHA...I ate that candy bar and no one knows and I deserved that candy bar.....then I got away with it.

But If i steal that candy bar and I eat it...and then I am filled with sadness because i know i did something wrong...and I go into the store and I tell the clerk...I stole your candy bar and I ate it and I pay him for his candy bar...he has the choice to accept my remorse for what i did or he can call the cops and I can go to jail. I will forever know that i did a bad thing and i have to live with that knowledge. Even if the clerk does not call the police...I still will feel bad for what i did. The regret is within me...that i did a bad thing...even if no one else ever knew about it...I have a conscience that tells me what i did was wrong....and I will forever know what I did. That is not getting away with something....that is not self flagellating. That is being accountable and having remorse for my choice. I am forgiven...but I wont ever forget what I did.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> First of all...I did not make a mistake...I made a choice. The difference is that a mistake is not necessarily intentional...and trust me...committing adultery is intentional. I made the choice to cheat.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I think what I’m trying to say on balance is that you should maybe reconsider whether it is healthy to keep going on and on about what a terrible thing you did and how much you hurt your husband etc and try to take away something positive from the experience. 

I think if I was your husband, I would find it disturbing that my wife was continuously in this state of hyper-remorse. I would feel that perhaps I am not getting something and should be much more pissed off and disturbed by it than I already am....Maybe you are not like that with him I don’t know, but every post of yours here talks about what a terrible person you were for doing this or that to your husband. Maybe you worry others will judge you for not being ‘remorseful enough’ or maybe you enjoy this state and being so hard on yourself (I doubt it but there are a few people on TAM who seem to live for it). 

In the end you made through it and your marriage is stronger (i guess?) and you are both more mature adults in a better place than before. Try to see the positive. 

**** happens and every ****ty cloud has a silver lining somewhere. Maybe it’s delusion but so what: that’s how we get through life. 


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I suppose there are some people in this world not bothered by conscience....some people who are able to never hold themselves accountable for their actions....some people who use others for their own gain ....some people who never experience regret...and maybe this kind of individual does not experience pain for the things they have done wrong....but I am not one of those people.
> 
> 
> 
> I have a strong sense of right and wrong...a strong moral compass...strong ethics..



See, those are the parts that are irritating and where I just don’t understand what your motivations are for posting (you say it’s to help others in similar situations but all you talk about is yourself). You would be better off if you got off that moral horse of yours and devoted your energy towards spending happy days with your loving husband. It makes no difference whether you think you are better or worse than somebody else. This relativism doesn’t do anything at all except make it look like you are looking for some sort of a boost that I don’t understand why you need it in the first place.

Accountable or not accountable or how strong you feel your ethics are....it would all mean precisely squat all to me post affair. All I would care about is whether my wife still loved me.



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## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Thank you Katie....and I am bothered by the same thing.
> 
> When you commit adultery...whether you divorce or reconcile...it is a life changing event. I suppose there are some people in this world not bothered by conscience....some people who are able to never hold themselves accountable for their actions....some people who use others for their own gain ....some people who never experience regret...and maybe this kind of individual does not experience pain for the things they have done wrong....but I am not one of those people.
> 
> ...


Thank you, katies and MJA for these insights. I too was bothered, not so much by justice or injustice, but whether h would feel (not SUFFER) but feel any consequences for his choices. And I didn't feel it was my job to mete it out on him. I'm not an evangelical or fundamentalist Christian, but I grew up that way, and I belong to a liturgical tradition from my English side of the family. And I am a Stoic. I don't particularly believe that things happen for a reason, but I am just generally content to focus on my own healing and my own future and let the universe sort out my h, now ex. He was doing some soul searching. I remember him often talking about a period where he and his siblings lived with his mother in project housing, and I always assumed that was after his father died when h was 15. But during his MLC and our separation, he shared that they lived there because his parents split, due to his father's cheating. They eventually got back together, in part due to his health (he died of a heart condition at 36). H was wondering if the sins of the father were visited on the children, if there was some genetic propensity he had to cheat, if he had inherited some cosmic moral failing or propensity to fail. At that point I was conscious that he was wrestling and struggling, and I hoped that he would deal with those issues for himself, within himself, which I guess is in many ways related to the topic of this thread (and which on MLC websites you'll see is proposed at the center of MLC - a collapse in part due to dysfunctional family origins or the inability to cope with big life issues or loss). I think the universe has kicked him in the butt, grabbed him by the throat, and shouted at him to wake the f up. And I hope he does before he meets his maker, because he is not well physically. 

I wish him no ill; I wish him only the best.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

You could also just buy the same candy from another store and replace it, without wasting police’s precious ****ing time.




Mrs. John Adams said:


> Thank you Katie....and I am bothered by the same thing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...







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## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

@inmyprime, with all due respect, I don't see MJA as self-flagellating, nor do I see what she is describing as some state of hyper-remorse. 

Instead, I think that part of healing and accepting is the ability to talk about these things as the facts, the realities of a life shared, that they are. I remember hearing, over a meal of primarily students but with a couple of faculty, a department chair's wife who was meeting most of the people for the first time, just say that she was divorced. In my then-Christian naivete, I thought, why would you announce that? Why is that relevant (I think someone had asked if she and the chair had children). He too had been married before and had children from the first marriage, but she didn't say that. She only said that she was divorced and had two children from that marriage. So she answered the question factually. 

For many years I didn't talk about my h's betrayal and rejection. But as I said on donesie's "Worst Valentine's Day ever" post, one of the ways I knew I was over it was when i could hear myself talk about my ex-husband, for example, if someone asked me if I was married. I simply said no, I was, but my h left me. Matter of fact, just like that, without a lot of emotional impact or investment. It wasn't the kind of talking about it that I did while I was in the throes of discovery, or response (rather than emotional reaction), or reconstruction of my life, when I was trying to set aside the hurt and be rational in my choices. The choices are now over; my marriage ended due to my h's infidelity. It is what it is. 

It happened. It is a reality, it is a fact of my life. In my case, the cheating was done by my spouse, it was done to me. In other cases, people here cheated and talk about it, factually, without a lot of emotional impact or investment. Either way, it says something about the degree to which the entire event has been absorbed and processed and experienced, and how it has shaped (not defined) the person's sense of self (and survival) to be able to talk about it.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> *First of all...I did not make a mistake...I made a choice. The difference is that a mistake is not necessarily intentional...and trust me...committing adultery is intentional. I made the choice to cheat.*
> 
> Second...I have explained this to you many times and you do not understand it...but i will try once more. I confessed my infidelity because i believed it was the RIGHT thing to do.Regardless of the outcome....I believe that my husband had the choice to divorce me. Had I not told him...I would have taken away HIS right to divorce me.
> 
> Third...I do not feel sorry for myself...nor do I punish myself. I express my opinions on a forum...I tell the truth as honestly as I can. If you read what I write and interpret what i say as self flagellation...you really don't get it. But I understand that...because you really have no idea what you are talking about since you are here as a spectator and I am here as a participant.


WOW

You might be the first WS I have seen here that I believe actually does get it. Much respect to you.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

This is a good (even if sad) example where confession and (what the BS perceived as) honesty, made absolutely no difference to the outcome nor ensured remorse from WS’s side.
He may have even truly felt like it was going to be a one time thing but it ended up not like that.
I still think regret and remorse is something you arrive at completely by yourself, not through the eyes (and with the help) of your suffering partner.
I’m sorry to hear it didn’t work out.




TeddieG said:


> I DON'T want him back. And yes, he had no concern for how he was hurting me. At the time this happened, I had a demanding job and was in an advanced degree program, and I needed to protect those two things, and not be distracted by who divorced whom. After he confessed, I asked him to move out, he continued the affair with the OW, and he divorced me and married her. I needed him to do his own heavy lifting on his choices because I had two things (and later three, when my mother was diagnosed with cancer), that were going to determine my future, and I needed to focus on those. I am just saying that if there were ANY hypothetical situation in which there would be anything LIKE resembling reconciliation, that's what it would look like - living apart, spending time together. Lots of people have ended up with reconciliations like that. But I do not anticipate him asking for any kind of reconciliation (I've even told his family I hope he meets a nice woman in his home state who will love and enjoy his kids and grandkids with him), but even if he did, the answer would be no. But it is't going to happen.
> 
> In a sense, though, I'm contrasting my experience with that of @Mrs John Adams or @I shouldnthave. They were still married, they did not separate from their spouse, they told the truth and wanted to work on the marriage. In my ex's case, he confessed, and gave me the impression it was a short-term thing, and yet for me, when that turned out not to be true, when he moved into an apartment within walking distance of her house, I could read the cards.
> 
> ...







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## TooNice (Nov 26, 2013)

My ex is a narcissist. He hid his affair for years, and maintained that our divorce was because we grew apart, not because there was someone else. 

He will never understand how his actions impacted me and more importantly, the life I could have had. It is a residual thing I still deal with, but it helps me to know that he simply won't ever "get it", so I just work on moving on.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Accountable or not accountable or how strong you feel your ethics are....it would all mean precisely squat all to me post affair. All I would care about is whether my wife still loved me.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Your perspective is interesting IMP. All I can say to this last part is your wife can still continue to love you and just about every other man she comes into contact. I don't think that is enough to build a marriage on, unless you agreed to an open marriage...otherwise its just a degrading fetish. So, if you are interested in continuing some kind of marriage post-affair with your spouse, those other things are important. If she needs daily self-flaggelation (sp?) to keep her out of the bed of other men, then so be it.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Your perspective is interesting IMP. All I can say to this last part is your wife can still continue to love you and just about every other man she comes into contact. I don't think that is enough to build a marriage on, unless you agreed to an open marriage...otherwise its just a degrading fetish. So, if you are interested in continuing some kind of marriage post-affair with your spouse, those other things are important. If she needs daily self-flaggelation (sp?) to keep her out of the bed of other men, then so be it.


Without respect, honesty, or commitment, love means precisely nothing.

At least where marriage is concerned.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

One time I went to target and when I pulled into the parking space I accidentally scraped the van parked next to the parking place I was pulling into. There was no one around... no one saw me do it

But I went into the store to the service desk and asked them to page the owner of the van. I gave them the make and model and the license number. I waited for a few minutes and the lady behind the service desk said to me.. I don’t think anyone is coming. They may have already left. But I want to tell you .. that was very nice of you to try. 

I called my insurance agent and told him what happened. I gave him the same information I gave the clerk. He said... I doubt they ever contact authorities to report this but I have it on file if they do. 

I could have driven away without anyone ever finding out what I had done. But what if... the parking lot security camera captured what I did? And what if the owner of that van asked to see the video? And what if I had been arrested for hit and run? 

I realize that it was unlikely that what I did would ever be revealed. But I felt I had to make the effort to inform the owner so I could fix what I had broken.

I held myself accountable for what I did. But I could have kept it a secret. But that owners van was still broken. I am sure they fixed it with their own insurance company. 

My story is true and it tells you something.. it tells you my mindset ... the kind of person I am. By telling my husband what I had done I gave him the right to pursue what was best for him. You might think what I did in both cases was stupid. But I know if I had found the owner of that van that they would have appreciated my honesty and willingness to right the wrong I had committed.

I believe that my husband saw in my confession the kind of person he always thought I was when he married me... not the person I had become when I cheated. I believe that my confession was seen as a positive thing not a negative thing. While he may have never found out about my affair... there is always the possibility that he could have. And that information is much better coming from me than him finding out years later and questioning our entire relationship. Yes my confession hurt him... but it also gave him the choice to stay married to me knowing what I had done or divorcing me.

We have a wonderful relationship built on honesty... we have our scars but we also have tremendous respect for one another.

The elephant in the room was put outside a long time ago. We know he is there but he does not bother us much anymore.

We have beautiful children and grandchildren. We travel all over the world. We have a beautiful home. We are very very lucky and blessed. 

I have one regret in my life and that regret is not that I told my husband about my affair. 

My regret is that I cheated.

You may not understand or agree and That’s ok.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> One time I went to target and when I pulled into the parking space I accidentally scraped the van parked next to the parking place I was pulling into. There was no one around... no one saw me do it
> 
> But I went into the store to the service desk and asked them to page the owner of the van. I gave them the make and model and the license number. I waited for a few minutes and the lady behind the service desk said to me.. I don’t think anyone is coming. They may have already left. But I want to tell you .. that was very nice of you to try.
> 
> ...


But did you attempt to contact the Owner and Insurance because you were afraid that you may go to jail for a hit and run if they looked at hidden camara footage or because of a sense of duty to your fellow man?

Overwhelmingly, adultery is only found out after getting caught by their spouse or someone else that tells the BS. There was no real smoking gun like a dent in your vehicle that would let anyone know that a violation occurred. The WS thought they could get away with it and no one would notice. No harm done, until it hits the fan. 

Your case is different since you had a compulsion to tell before your spouse found out (unless you were worried someone else would tell and you were just getting in front of the story). I'm not all that impressed with guilt after getting caught. And I don't know how to read someone to know if they just feel sorry for getting caught or are remorseful. That is why I have a lot of pessimism about post-affair recovery. How is a BS suppose to understand the difference between remorse or histrionics? If someone is selfish enough to involve themselves in an affair, lie and deceive their spouses for so long, what prevents them from playing their spouses? How can a BS trust someone like that?


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## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

inmyprime said:


> This is a good (even if sad) example where confession and (what the BS perceived as) honesty, made absolutely no difference to the outcome nor ensured remorse from WS’s side.
> He may have even truly felt like it was going to be a one time thing but it ended up not like that.
> I still think regret and remorse is something you arrive at completely by yourself, not through the eyes (and with the help) of your suffering partner.
> I’m sorry to hear it didn’t work out.
> ...


Well, the thing was, he told me because he both wanted to break free from the OW, but knowing he was weak and an addictive personality and easily manipulated at that point in his mental and physical health, I suspect he had already decided he was leaving, at least for a time. I think he thought it might or might not be a temporary separation. He was confused and really didn't know what he wanted, but as a selfish person he wanted whatever he could get in the meantime. Yet he never could quite let go of me; one of the things that I still am alert to, keeping my eyes open for explanations of why he clung to me at the same time his mind was made up he was leaving me, and I recently saw someone here say this is a pattern in many infidelity cases. It certainly is a pattern in MLC. On another forum I had a friend who took 4 years to finalize the divorce she filed because her h spent thousands of dollars to fight it, to keep her "available" and connected in his addled mind, at the same time he kept his mistress. 

I think the great risk of telling, which is why I admire it so much, is when the WS realizes the error and wants to put things right. And many people say that if their spouse cheated, they'd be out of there, but when the real event happens, the response is often somewhat different. 

But yes, you are VERY right, in my opinion, that regret and remorse is something arrived at solo, alone, regardless of the response of the betrayed spouse.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Your perspective is interesting IMP. All I can say to this last part is your wife can still continue to love you and just about every other man she comes into contact. I don't think that is enough to build a marriage on, unless you agreed to an open marriage...otherwise its just a degrading fetish. So, if you are interested in continuing some kind of marriage post-affair with your spouse, those other things are important. If she needs daily self-flaggelation (sp?) to keep her out of the bed of other men, then so be it.




I don’t think you can love someone and sleep around with lots of people. Maybe you can but that’s not my definition of love. There’s no reason to get hung up on technicalities or worry about loop holes; I was always talking about one particular type of infidelity in this thread: a one off digression. Anything more than that is much more premeditated and a different ball game.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

TeddieG said:


> But yes, you are VERY right, in my opinion, that regret and remorse is something arrived at solo, alone, regardless of the response of the betrayed spouse.


How could you arrive at such contrition without seeing the pain it causes your spouse? I mean, the only reason affairs end usually are because they BS finds out. The WS obviously thought they could get away with it. Its only after getting discovered and seeing the destruction that most people get it, if they ever do. And even then it may just be more of a selfish mix of guilt/shame. I don't think it would be like an epiphany.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> I don’t think you can love someone and sleep around with lots of people. Maybe you can but that’s not my definition of love. There’s no reason to get hung up on technicalities or worry about loop holes; I was always talking about one particular type of infidelity in this thread: a one off digression. Anything more than that is much more premeditated and a different ball game.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think its possible to love someone and do those things, but like Gus said without respect, honesty and commitment, love is worthless. I think that is what I'm getting at.


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## Coach23 (Mar 16, 2018)

@inmyprime - Its beginning to seem as though you’re almost attacking MJA because you have a difference of opinion. I myself have gone through a very similar situation as MJA and find her words encouraging. I would be the husband of a wife who had a PA. Her insights to her feelings are valuable to me and I take them to heart. It’s ok to have a difference of opinion, but you are continuing to beat a dead horse just because her perspective is different than yours. 

I can tell you that having a girlfriend who may have cheated on you and taking vows in a church in front of all your family and friends, having children then finding out the love of your life, the one you committed your life too, virtually entrusted this person with your heart has cheated on you and had a PA is not the same and do not cause the same type of pain, hurt and trauma. Not even in the same ball park or even the same game for that matter.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Usdw... I was not afraid I would go to jail. I tried to contact the owner because it was the right thing to do in my mindset. I would have wanted someone to tell me if the situation were reversed. I have had someone hit my car and drive off without telling me. It cost me my deductible to repair my car and my rates to go up. 

I knew the cause and effect. I did what was right.

I can absolutely understand a betrayed questioning a wayward. I can understand never trusting a wayward. 

Which is exactly where accountability and confession and transparency and remorse all come into play. 

Each betrayed spouse has the right to determine where their line is drawn and how they want to proceed. 

My husband chose to reconcile.. it was the right answer for him. He could have chosen divorce... and that too would have been the right answer.

I do not believe either of us has any regret that we stayed together. The regret is the affair happened in the first place.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

TeddieG said:


> Well, the thing was, he told me because he both wanted to break free from the OW, but knowing he was weak and an addictive personality and easily manipulated at that point in his mental and physical health, I suspect he had already decided he was leaving, at least for a time. I think he thought it might or might not be a temporary separation. He was confused and really didn't know what he wanted, but as a selfish person he wanted whatever he could get in the meantime. Yet he never could quite let go of me; one of the things that I still am alert to, keeping my eyes open for explanations of why he clung to me at the same time his mind was made up he was leaving me, and I recently saw someone here say this is a pattern in many infidelity cases.


Maybe the answer is in your previous sentence: he really didn’t know what he wanted. Maybe when he saw you, he sincerely thought he wanted you and when he saw the OW, he really thought he wanted her. I know to messed up but human minds are like this sometimes.
Some people refer to it as cake eating.



TeddieG said:


> It certainly is a pattern in MLC. On another forum I had a friend who took 4 years to finalize the divorce she filed because her h spent thousands of dollars to fight it, to keep her "available" and connected in his addled mind, at the same time he kept his mistress.
> 
> 
> 
> I think the great risk of telling, which is why I admire it so much, is when the WS realizes the error and wants to put things right. And many people say that if their spouse cheated, they'd be out of there, but when the real event happens, the response is often somewhat different.



Yes that’s exactly it. I could not make such promises; I have been faced with difficult decisions in the past when my emotional part of the brain was completely overpowering the rational part; it’s tough and nigh impossible to make the ‘right’ choice in that situation.
We are not robots. 


I know in my mind that the right decision would be to leave if my wife confessed she cheated but in my heart, I’m not sure I would.
Then again if I think logically about it, if it’s just a one off thing for her, some kind of curiosity or drunken ONS or whatever, I know I shouldn’t care that much. But biologically, I probably would. I acutely aware that we react in the strangest ways when faced with difficult/impossible choices or tragedies. My comments come mostly from that place. It may seem like I’m advocating dishonesty, but it’s not it.




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## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> How could you arrive at such contrition without seeing the pain it causes your spouse? I mean, the only reason affairs end usually are because they BS finds out. The WS obviously thought they could get away with it. Its only after getting discovered and seeing the destruction that most people get it, if they ever do. And even then it may just be more of a selfish mix of guilt/shame. I don't think it would be like an epiphany.


Okay, at one level, that's a fair question. But that assumes there's compassion and love and still some connection to the betrayed spouse. And yes, I do think a WS thinks s/he can get away with it, perhaps. In an earlier post, I mentioned part of this, but in a case of fearful symmetry, he called me on the phone to tell me he had been unfaithful, and I think he did that in part so he could not see my pain. But six weeks later he was calling and weeping into the phone, I don't know what got into me, you don't deserve this, you deserve so much better than this. And I think he did it by phone so I wouldn't see HIS pain. 

The guy I knew, the man I married, was the kind of guy that could easily have turned out like MJA: he was the kind of guy with a moral compass, a sense of right and wrong, a person capable of deep feeling. He could easily have seen the error of his ways on his own, based on his own sense of ethics or epistemology. There were two demons that dogged him: one, he is bi polar, and therefore subject to fits of depression, that remove ANY feeling he has for anyone he loves (and ironically he blames them for that fact), and two, he had kidney stones and an uncaring doctor, the only one on h's insurance network, used a new gadget to remove a stent placed in his penis. When h had the surgery to put it in, he woke up at home in profound pain and we called the doctor who said, "What, you didn't expect that" and told him to take one his pills. Those pills had morphine in them, and after the first one, h refused to take it because he said "It makes me mean and angry, and I don't want you to see that and I don't want to be mean to you." He of course had performance problems after that, and we later discovered it was also related to his high blood pressure and his heart condition and his aneurysm. But the same man who didn't want to be mean to me no longer wanted to go to the doctor to solve his problem, and he made a choice to solve that problem a different way. And he was honest all the way through it; his filters dropped, his phony coping mechanism disappeared. He basically said, if I can't make love to a woman I don't want to live. But he was also profoundly opposed to suicide, so by his calculation, he had a choice, an option, and he took it.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> How could you arrive at such contrition without seeing the pain it causes your spouse? I mean, the only reason affairs end usually are because they BS finds out. The WS obviously thought they could get away with it. Its only after getting discovered and seeing the destruction that most people get it, if they ever do. And even then it may just be more of a selfish mix of guilt/shame. I don't think it would be like an epiphany.



Clearly there are many affairs that don’t end that way. The WS is found out and then continues with the affair. Unless the realisation comes from within, nothing will work IMO.
It is assumed that the WS has the emotional maturity of an adult, not a child.
I’m also mainly talking about a one off digression, not an ongoing affair. Those are very different.

I worry some of the tactics suggested on CWI are suggested as blanket tactics for all types of infidelity but there are many different kinds and while they have proven to work in some instances, in others, they won’t make a difference and perhaps give the BS false hopes.


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## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

inmyprime said:


> Maybe the answer is in your previous sentence: he really didn’t know what he wanted. Maybe when he saw you, he sincerely thought he wanted you and when he saw the OW, he really thought he wanted her. I know to messed up but human minds are like this sometimes.
> Some people refer to it as cake eating.
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, when he saw me or was with me, he wanted what we had. And yes, that's cake eating. The OW even called and asked if he could live with me during the week and spend weekends with her. (Later I found out that she was already dealing with his bi polar mania by sending him to her brother's house to hang out. She too wanted the weekend fun at the lake. I laughed and said, hell no.

But the biological thing, motivation, you're talking about makes sense to me. He thought the solution for his ED was a new woman, and the excitement and thrill of the secrecy. And one day the OW called to try to make peace, to sort of apologize, to say, I didn't mean to hurt you, to fish around to see if we could be "friends," it just happened. And I said, sorry, not interested. Her reply was nasty at a host of levels, but one thing she did say was that h had talked about how badly he wished he had a baby with her, and couldn't she untie her tubes? And then later I found out from him that she'd had a hysterectomy. Yes, infidelity is the gift that keeps on giving, even at the biological level.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Overwhelmingly, adultery is only found out after getting caught by their spouse or someone else that tells the BS. There was no real smoking gun like a dent in your vehicle that would let anyone know that a violation occurred. The WS thought they could get away with it and no one would notice. No harm done, until it hits the fan.


Were I the kind of person to put as much out there as MJA, my end of the story would not be that different. I left my phone number on a car I nicked in a parking lot too. I corrected the cashier at the store when undercharged for items. I stopped at the roadside and helped the stranded. My spouse said my integrity was one of the most attractive qualities I possessed. I thought I was above infidelity. 

And then I wasn't. 

Still, I salvaged just enough of it after my ONS, where I used protection, by telling her without getting found out because of an STD scare. So not only did it hit the fan, but I brought the fan. She has since mentioned that my valuing her health and well-being above keeping the secret was pivotal in deciding to stick around.

And yes, we are both glad we did. I'm not the kind to post a wall of self-flagellating text, so I'll never be considered by many here to actually "get it". I just want to throw my $0.02 when the "you can never successfully fix the damage and shouldn't even try" crowd acts up.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Coach23 said:


> @inmyprime - Its beginning to seem as though you’re almost attacking MJA because you have a difference of opinion. I myself have gone through a very similar situation as MJA and find her words encouraging. I would be the husband of a wife who had a PA. Her insights to her feelings are valuable to me and I take them to heart. It’s ok to have a difference of opinion, but you are continuing to beat a dead horse just because her perspective is different than yours.
> 
> I can tell you that having a girlfriend who may have cheated on you and taking vows in a church in front of all your family and friends, having children then finding out the love of your life, the one you committed your life too, virtually entrusted this person with your heart has cheated on you and had a PA is not the same and do not cause the same type of pain, hurt and trauma. Not even in the same ball park or even the same game for that matter.


Coach did you ever read this thread as I suggested in another thread?


successful rugsweep?

Given the fact that dday was 30 years ago and you are still in tremendous pain I suggest you do. It seems from your posts your wife NEVER got it.

Riverrat's thread should be required reading for any spouse who stews in limbo for too long.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Wow Cletus... thanks for sharing that! You gave me some inspiration today. 
I too have done the things you mentioned. 
My parents taught me well to be principled, moral, respectful. And I was all those things until one day I wasn’t. And the first person I told about my affair was my mother. I have never regretted telling her. She helped both of us with her wisdom and her prayers. 

you and I agree on a whole lot of things and I will just leave it at that!


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

Cletus said:


> I just want to throw my $0.02 when the "you can never successfully fix the damage and shouldn't even try" crowd acts up.



Boom!


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Cletus said:


> And yes, we are both glad we did. I'm not the kind to post a wall of self-flagellating text, so I'll never be considered by many here to actually "get it". I just want to throw my $0.02 when the "you can never successfully fix the damage and shouldn't even try" crowd acts up.



To me, ‘getting it’ means getting through life without repeating that mistake ever again. (As well as the obvious stuff; like being a devoted and caring spouse etc). I really don’t think that that ‘wall of text’ makes it more or less likely that it will never happen again. 
You simply take precautions next time; like not getting yourself into a situation where things are likely to get out of control in the first place. Later, it’s difficult to stop it once you cross a certain line. (Cheating starts in the brain).

The problem is that it’s one of the strongest biological drives and it sometimes ‘overrules’ the moral compass that we possess from our upbringing. I don’t want to minimise it but I do have some sympathy if it really only happens once.
However if you are stupid twice, then it’s a whole different thing...



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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Wow Cletus... thanks for sharing that! You gave me some inspiration today.
> I too have done the things you mentioned.
> My parents taught me well to be principled, moral, respectful. And I was all those things until one day I wasn’t. And the first person I told about my affair was my mother. I have never regretted telling her. She helped both of us with her wisdom and her prayers.
> 
> you and I agree on a whole lot of things and I will just leave it at that!


I expect one day to tell my children, but I've been waiting for when it seems appropriate. My son is married just a year, and my daughter is not yet. But I figure at some point one or the other will face a marriage difficulty that might benefit from knowing that you can fix things that seem broken. Even though (in fact, mostly because) I will lose some stature in their eyes.

You're not a bad person, and neither am I. We are not defined by our worst moments, as long as we learn from them.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I think this stuff (consequences of cheating and also risks of being cheated on) has to somehow be taught as part of upbringing.
Unless you really thought about it deeply or worse, you went through it yourself, you are at much higher risk and can have your life ruined (either as WS or BS).
I don’t think it’s discussed much with parents at a young age and many parents expect their kids to figure it out on their own; I remember I thought I would impress my mother when I told her I had several girlfriends at the same time. (I always got from her the vibe that it would be embarrassing to get attached to just one person; and only losers did this. No idea where I got this idea from). 
But one needs to be aware of both sides of the coin: I have friends who got too attached too early on then they were cheated on. I don’t feel they fully ever recovered and it shaped their rest of their lives.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Cletus.. I told my daughter when she was 18... a situation arose that I felt I should tell her. As it turned out.. I did not need to. We don’t discuss it. She does not ask questions. 
I never told my son... his sister may have told him... but if she did ... he has never indicated that he knows. 

You do what you think is right and in the end that’s the best you can do. 

Our kids and grandkids think we are the greatest. And at the end of the day... that’s what matters. Not the opinions of folks on a forum that have no idea who we really are.


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## Coach23 (Mar 16, 2018)

@Truthseeker1

You would be mistaken about my wife "GETTING" it. She does get it as much as any WW could get it without being subjected to it firsthand. She has been a doting wife and mother ever since and I truly believe faithful ever since. I trust her as much as anyone could trust another person after being subjected to that sort of trauma by said person. She has earned every bit of that trust as I have certainly at times been a difficult person to deal with because of her bad choice. My issues do not stem with her getting it. They stem with myself and my internal feeling dealing with it. With that said if I could go back and make a different choice to stay or go, admittedly I very well could make a different decision. Not because she hasn’t done everything in her power to make the marriage what it should have been. It did open our eyes to both our failings as young married “adults” Sad thing is for what we have together I couldn’t have asked for more from her or out of my life. My mind just gets hung up on her 6 month PA. 

I will however read through successful rug sweep post as I know fully your intentions are good and I do appreciate it. I am sure I will come away with valuable information. Thank you.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Coach23 said:


> @Truthseeker1
> 
> *You would be mistaken about my wife "GETTING" it. She does get it as much as any WW could get it without being subjected to it firsthand.*


This right here is what I suspect. She can get it only so much but not fully.

If she has been a doting wife and mother then you might want to seek professional help to get you past this. 30 years is a long time to carry a burden.

Good luck!!


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> One time I went to target and when I pulled into the parking space I accidentally scraped the van parked next to the parking place I was pulling into. There was no one around... no one saw me do it
> 
> But I went into the store to the service desk and asked them to page the owner of the van. I gave them the make and model and the license number. I waited for a few minutes and the lady behind the service desk said to me.. I don’t think anyone is coming. They may have already left. But I want to tell you .. that was very nice of you to try.
> 
> ...


Besides that the marriage is something different them just you or just him, it's both of you. Your partner in the marriage is entitled to the truth because the truth is not just your truth but the marriage's truth. You as an individual have no right to suppress it. If you truly believe that you made vows to God then you know the truth is also his.

I would also say living ones life with integrity however possible is more important then the marriage. You have already committed the wrong when you cheat so hiding it isn't protecting your integrity or even your partner, you are just prolonging and possibly worsening the outcome.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

I agree with you skm

I have tried to live my life in honesty and truth. We are a team ... what affects one also affects the other. 

We have been a team 46 years and plan to make it to 75!


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## Coach23 (Mar 16, 2018)

@Truthseeker1

I can't say I disagree. I have just picked up a book that was recommended. The Journey from abandonment to healing. I suspect that part of my issue stems from feelings of abandoment from my father and then the follow-up of abandonment of love from my wife. I am sure that is a subject for another thread however. Thanks again. All insights are welcome I'm sure to all who have been on either side of the coin.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

"I think if I was your husband, I would find it disturbing that my wife was continuously in this state of hyper-remorse."

Prime, I feel the same way. But there are some BS out there that need and expect their WS to be prostrate forever. NOT saying Mr. JA feels that way at all.

But I know BH's who do. They feed off it and basically demand it.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> "I think if I was your husband, I would find it disturbing that my wife was continuously in this state of hyper-remorse."
> 
> Prime, I feel the same way. But there are some BS out there that need and expect their WS to be prostrate forever. NOT saying Mr. JA feels that way at all.
> 
> But I know BH's who do. They feed off it and basically demand it.


Because they lost all respect for their wives and lots of self respect for staying. Its better just to divorce at that point.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > "I think if I was your husband, I would find it disturbing that my wife was continuously in this state of hyper-remorse."
> ...


If it's that bad, you're right. Divorce. You have no moral high ground when you force indefinite penance.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> If it's that bad, you're right. Divorce. You have no moral high ground when you force indefinite penance.


That is no way to life for the BS. If you seek justice then seek justice and then move on. I dont understand a BS who would seek that form a WS because it hurts the BS just as much if not more than the WS. Seeking indefinite penance is like ripping open your wound again and again - how will you ever heal?

What all this does show is the seriousness of infidelity and the unforseen consequences it has on everyones lives including the kids.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Because they lost all respect for their wives and lots of self respect for staying. Its better just to divorce at that point.


Agreed. If you dont respect your wife anymore- take osmetime away in some cases divorce. Staying in a state of limbo is self-inflicted just as much as the WSs pain after dday (_*if they have the capacity to feel it*_) is self-inflicted.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Truthseeker1 said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > If it's that bad, you're right. Divorce. You have no moral high ground when you force indefinite penance.
> ...


For this type of man, seeing their stained spouse stay low is more important than their own well being.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> For this type of man, seeing their stained spouse stay low is more important than their own well being.


Well its a sad existence for him. What they dont see evidently is by staying in that state their cheating spouse has all this emotional power over them. It's foolish to ever let a cheating spouse destroy your life like that.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Agreed. If you dont respect your wife anymore- take osmetime away in some cases divorce. Staying in a state of limbo is self-inflicted just as much as the WSs pain after dday (_*if they have the capacity to feel it*_) is self-inflicted.


There was a guy (on the other site we shall not speak of) who was like this. He helped me a lot a couple years back when I was a mess. He advised me to divorce and move on and find a better woman since I still was rather young (and I did!). His story was his wife had an affair with some lowlife in some truck lot. He had little kids at the time and didn't want to put them through divorce and so he stayed, but later regretted it, saying he lost all respect for his wife and wishes he just divorced her. Apparently, she was the model wayward too. But he couldn't wrap his head around the betrayal, and he spent years physically throwing her out (by his own omission many time he should have went to jail), degraded her, treated her like a wh*** in bed. Now that the kids have left the house, he feels the urge to divorce her, but I'm not sure he ever will, inertia is a powerful force. But yea, his wife's infidelity ruined his life. I felt for him.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> But yea, his wife's infidelity ruined his life. I felt for him.


Doesn't sound like infidelity ruined his life to me. It sounds more like infidelity put a gun to his head, but then he pulled the trigger, over and over and over again. 

No doubt many people should never try to reconcile. "Know thyself" and all.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> There was a guy on the other site we shall not speak of, which I first went to a couple years ago who was like this. He told me he should have divorced instead of staying and advised me to divorce, move on with a better woman. He said he envied me, since I was still rather young. He stayed for the little kids he had and didn't want to put them through divorce so he stayed, but later said he lost all respect for his wife and wishes he just divorced her. Apparently, she was the model wayward too. But he couldn't wrap his head around the betrayal, and he spent years physically threw her out (by his own omission many time he should have went to jail), degraded her, treated her like a wh*** in bed. Now that the kids have left the house, he feels the urge to divorce her, but I'm not sure he ever will, inertia is a powerful force. But yea, his wife's infidelity ruined his life. I felt for him.


Here is my issue with someone like that...when does he take responsibility for his own life? We all struggle with that but when is it time for him to stop blaming his WW and get to a therapist and work on him. Once the BS has enough of the facts then it is up to them to figure out what is best for them. If they stay and their life continues to spiral downward its their own fault after a certain amount of time. 

I struggle with this in my own life - non infidelity related. To make a move that will improve my life but you are right inertia is powerful. I cant imagine waking up everyday to a woman I hated to then go on and punish her for a few hours. Who wants to live like that? These cases are common and I've seen and read about many of them. I feel for these folks but there comes a time to make your move.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Truthseeker1 said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> > There was a guy on the other site we shall not speak of, which I first went to a couple years ago who was like this. He told me he should have divorced instead of staying and advised me to divorce, move on with a better woman. He said he envied me, since I was still rather young. He stayed for the little kids he had and didn't want to put them through divorce so he stayed, but later said he lost all respect for his wife and wishes he just divorced her. Apparently, she was the model wayward too. But he couldn't wrap his head around the betrayal, and he spent years physically threw her out (by his own omission many time he should have went to jail), degraded her, treated her like a wh*** in bed. Now that the kids have left the house, he feels the urge to divorce her, but I'm not sure he ever will, inertia is a powerful force. But yea, his wife's infidelity ruined his life. I felt for him.
> ...


This guy chose his life. He deserves NO sympathy.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Truthseeker1 said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > For this type of man, seeing their stained spouse stay low is more important than their own well being.
> ...


Nah, they destroy their own lives. The WS doesn't make them stay and punish. They do it because of the secondary gain. They are just as messed up as the WS.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> This guy chose his life. He deserves NO sympathy.


While I feel for him on some level it is hard to continue to feel bsd for someone who wont leave. Sometime these sites attract those who cant or wont decide.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> Nah, they destroy their own lives. The WS doesn't make them stay and punish. They do it because of the secondary gain. They are just as messed up as the WS.


In many cases they are two broken people even before the affair.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

TeddieG said:


> Well, the thing was, he told me because he both wanted to break free from the OW, but knowing he was weak and an addictive personality and easily manipulated at that point in his mental and physical health, I suspect he had already decided he was leaving, at least for a time. I think he thought it might or might not be a temporary separation. He was confused and really didn't know what he wanted, but as a selfish person he wanted whatever he could get in the meantime. Yet he never could quite let go of me; one of the things that I still am alert to, keeping my eyes open for explanations of why he clung to me at the same time his mind was made up he was leaving me, and I recently saw someone here say this is a pattern in many infidelity cases. It certainly is a pattern in MLC. On another forum I had a friend who took 4 years to finalize the divorce she filed because her h spent thousands of dollars to fight it, to keep her "available" and connected in his addled mind, at the same time he kept his mistress.
> 
> I think the great risk of telling, which is why I admire it so much, is when the WS realizes the error and wants to put things right. And many people say that if their spouse cheated, they'd be out of there, but when the real event happens, the response is often somewhat different.
> 
> But yes, you are VERY right, in my opinion, that regret and remorse is something arrived at solo, alone, regardless of the response of the betrayed spouse.


Sounds like a great waste of time.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I think its possible to love someone and do those things, but like Gus said without respect, honesty and commitment, love is worthless. I think that is what I'm getting at.


Yeah the scary thing is that is how they love or at least how they think of love. It's why most are a waste of time. Their love is like a junk bond. There is no loyalty or honor in it.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

TeddieG said:


> Yes, when he saw me or was with me, he wanted what we had. And yes, that's cake eating. The OW even called and asked if he could live with me during the week and spend weekends with her. (Later I found out that she was already dealing with his bi polar mania by sending him to her brother's house to hang out. She too wanted the weekend fun at the lake. I laughed and said, hell no.
> 
> But the biological thing, motivation, you're talking about makes sense to me. He thought the solution for his ED was a new woman, and the excitement and thrill of the secrecy. And one day the OW called to try to make peace, to sort of apologize, to say, I didn't mean to hurt you, to fish around to see if we could be "friends," it just happened. And I said, sorry, not interested. Her reply was nasty at a host of levels, but one thing she did say was that h had talked about how badly he wished he had a baby with her, and couldn't she untie her tubes? And then later I found out from him that she'd had a hysterectomy. Yes, infidelity is the gift that keeps on giving, even at the biological level.


You make a lot of excuses but he just sounds like any other run of the mill cheater. Actually maybe worse. Bi-polar for sure.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Cletus said:


> I expect one day to tell my children, but I've been waiting for when it seems appropriate. My son is married just a year, and my daughter is not yet. But I figure at some point one or the other will face a marriage difficulty that might benefit from knowing that you can fix things that seem broken. Even though (in fact, mostly because) I will lose some stature in their eyes.
> 
> You're not a bad person, and neither am I. We are not defined by our worst moments, as long as we learn from them.


Knowing my Dad was an unremorseful cheater was difficult immediately after I was cheated on, didn't even want to look at him at the time. Not sure how I would have felt if he was remorseful.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Coach23 said:


> @Truthseeker1
> 
> You would be mistaken about my wife "GETTING" it. She does get it as much as any WW could get it without being subjected to it firsthand. She has been a doting wife and mother ever since and I truly believe faithful ever since. I trust her as much as anyone could trust another person after being subjected to that sort of trauma by said person. She has earned every bit of that trust as I have certainly at times been a difficult person to deal with because of her bad choice. My issues do not stem with her getting it. They stem with myself and my internal feeling dealing with it. With that said if I could go back and make a different choice to stay or go, admittedly I very well could make a different decision. Not because she hasn’t done everything in her power to make the marriage what it should have been. It did open our eyes to both our failings as young married “adults” Sad thing is for what we have together I couldn’t have asked for more from her or out of my life. My mind just gets hung up on her 6 month PA.
> 
> I will however read through successful rug sweep post as I know fully your intentions are good and I do appreciate it. I am sure I will come away with valuable information. Thank you.


R should be based on quality of life. Getting it is a requirement not a reason for R. This is a sad story but a common one.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> "I think if I was your husband, I would find it disturbing that my wife was continuously in this state of hyper-remorse."
> 
> Prime, I feel the same way. But there are some BS out there that need and expect their WS to be prostrate forever. NOT saying Mr. JA feels that way at all.
> 
> But I know BH's who do. They feed off it and basically demand it.


I don't think MS JA is in a state hyper remorse. I think she mourns the pain she caused, what could have been but importantly the honor she lost. That is not to say that is a selfish thing but she gets that the affair was a real loss to her as well.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

sokillme said:


> I don't think MS JA is in a state hyper remorse. I think she mourns the pain she caused, what could have been but importantly the honor she lost. That is not to say that is a selfish thing but she gets that the affair was a real loss to her as well.


perfectly said...thank you


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> There was a guy (on the other site we shall not speak of) who was like this. He helped me a lot a couple years back when I was a mess. He advised me to divorce and move on and find a better woman since I still was rather young (and I did!). His story was his wife had an affair with some lowlife in some truck lot. He had little kids at the time and didn't want to put them through divorce and so he stayed, but later regretted it, saying he lost all respect for his wife and wishes he just divorced her. Apparently, she was the model wayward too. But he couldn't wrap his head around the betrayal, and he spent years physically throwing her out (by his own omission many time he should have went to jail), degraded her, treated her like a wh*** in bed. Now that the kids have left the house, he feels the urge to divorce her, but I'm not sure he ever will, inertia is a powerful force. But yea, his wife's infidelity ruined his life. I felt for him.


Guys like this guy end up with women who cheat on them precisely for the same reason. They are full of fear take no agency in their lives and get picked by broken people who are attracted to people who are as broken as they are. 

Another thing that bothers me is when the whole marriage becomes about the affair. Maybe they have moved on but if it consumes your marriage it's still not a healthy marriage.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> perfectly said...thank you


I actually think you and I think exactly alike. My wife and I eat at this place every Friday. The bartender gives us free drinks, I always point it out, at this point just by pointing, she waves me off. I won't steal. I have never cheated but there are a few things that I have done that I am not proud of. They still bother me. 

I know I would feel exactly like you if I did it.


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## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

sokillme said:


> Knowing my Dad was an unremorseful cheater was difficult immediately after I was cheated on, didn't even want to look at him at the time. Not sure how I would have felt if he was remorseful.


I think that was an issue for my ex, given what I've said about his sudden admission that his father cheated on his mother. And then he sweetened the pot by saying that his parents married because he (h) was on the way, as though that was his fault, in utero. It's his fault he was conceived? I'm pretty sure that tape playing in his head came from his mother. Someone on this thread has described my ex as selfish and manipulative and conniving, but that's how his mother was. He looked like his dad, lost his dad at a crucial age, 15, and has yet to deal with his mother as his sisters have done. His mother even invited him to talk to her about any issues he had. He didn't take her up on it, despite the fact that his sister came down to visit us on her vacation in 2007 to tell her brother that she had confronted their mother about some serious issues, and was hoping he would chime in too. His mom has said that she made mistakes, so I hope that now while he is there with family, he'll take her up on the offer and clear the air.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

TeddieG said:


> I DON'T want him back. And yes, he had no concern for how he was hurting me. At the time this happened, I had a demanding job and was in an advanced degree program, and I needed to protect those two things, and not be distracted by who divorced whom. After he confessed, I asked him to move out, he continued the affair with the OW, and he divorced me and married her. I needed him to do his own heavy lifting on his choices because I had two things (and later three, when my mother was diagnosed with cancer), that were going to determine my future, and I needed to focus on those. I am just saying that if there were ANY hypothetical situation in which there would be anything LIKE resembling reconciliation, that's what it would look like - living apart, spending time together. Lots of people have ended up with reconciliations like that. But I do not anticipate him asking for any kind of reconciliation (I've even told his family I hope he meets a nice woman in his home state who will love and enjoy his kids and grandkids with him), but even if he did, the answer would be no. But it is't going to happen.
> 
> My point is why would you want a love like that. He sounds just plain awful history or not. Remorse or not. There has to be better.
> 
> ...


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

sokillme said:


> I actually think you and I think exactly alike. My wife and I eat at this place every Friday. The bartender gives us free drinks, I always point it out, at this point just by pointing, she waves me off. I won't steal. I have never cheated but there are a few things that I have done that I am not proud of. They still bother me.
> 
> I know I would feel exactly like you if I did it.


SKM...when i cheated...i took away the innocence of our relationship. I met john at church...he is the only boy i ever dated. I can NOT give him that back. I have been the best wife I know how to be...but I can never put the innocence back. It is gone forever. That may not be a big deal to anyone else...and that's ok....but it is a big deal to us. We love each other and we still have a lifetime of wonderful memories we have made together...but we lost that one thing...that is gone forever.

It breaks my heart...i don't dwell on it or think about it everyday. I am very happy...but when i do think about my life and i think about the wonderful moments...and the sad moments...it is the saddest moment...because i caused it. I have no one to blame but me....and John never deserved that.

and then i think about all the love that exists in our family and how happy I am that we are still together...because this is exactly where i want to be.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> SKM...when i cheated...i took away the innocence of our relationship. I met john at church...he is the only boy i ever dated. I can NOT give him that back. I have been the best wife I know how to be...but I can never put the innocence back. It is gone forever. That may not be a big deal to anyone else...and that's ok....but it is a big deal to us. We love each other and we still have a lifetime of wonderful memories we have made together...but we lost that one thing...that is gone forever.
> 
> It breaks my heart...i don't dwell on it or think about it everyday. I am very happy...but when i do think about my life and i think about the wonderful moments...and the sad moments...it is the saddest moment...because i caused it. I have no one to blame but me....and John never deserved that.
> 
> and then i think about all the love that exists in our family and how happy I am that we are still together...because this is exactly where i want to be.


The biggest thing I lost when I was cheated on was my innocence. My wife never got to be with the guy I was before I was cheated on which is a loss that she will never know, but I know and it IS a loss. I will never love anyone innocently again like I loved the women who cheated on me. The best way to describe that guy is to say he loved with abandon. That guy just doesn't exist anymore. If my wife cheated on my I would be surprised but not shocked. I know now that until we have devices that can read each others minds (they are coming by the way) you should never trust anyone 100%. I don't have a problem with that, it's wise. However that means that she doesn't get 100% of me because that would take 100% trust.

Here it the thing though, most people are cheated on once in their lives. Most end up feeling like me afterwords. So even though it's a loss it's not that uncommon. 

Mrs. JA - people have losses in their marriages in many ways often times that have nothing to do with their spouses actions. The aftermath of my assault situation that I have talked about here has affected my life in more profound ways then I ever would have imagined that night when I ran away at gun point thinking I would get shot. I would never have believed it if you told me just a few days afterwords. I think I lost a part of me for a decade because of it. This was the very beginning of my marriage. There are still things in my life that I am working through because of it. 

That's life isn't it? People die, people leave, folks to to war. It's sad but it's common. I am not big on spending a lot of time on the sad precisely because it is so common. Maybe that is one of the reasons I am quick to say move on. My thinking is lots of life is loss and sadness, go figure. There is a time to mourn, and a time to heal. To everything there is a season. OK on with the next thing... 

Maybe the next thing is this, you should forgive yourself for not living up to your own standard. I say that because I know this is exactly how I would feel, and how I feel about things I have done (not cheating). Speaking as a Christian, it was never possible for you to be perfect it's why you need a redeemer. It was always in your nature, it's in all of us, maybe not infidelity but something. Remember while you are on earth you were never going to be your best self.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> SKM...when i cheated...i took away the innocence of our relationship. I met john at church...he is the only boy i ever dated. I can NOT give him that back. I have been the best wife I know how to be...but I can never put the innocence back. It is gone forever. That may not be a big deal to anyone else...and that's ok....but it is a big deal to us. We love each other and we still have a lifetime of wonderful memories we have made together...but we lost that one thing...that is gone forever.
> 
> It breaks my heart...i don't dwell on it or think about it everyday. I am very happy...but when i do think about my life and i think about the wonderful moments...and the sad moments...it is the saddest moment...because i caused it. I have no one to blame but me....and John never deserved that.
> 
> and then i think about all the love that exists in our family and how happy I am that we are still together...because this is exactly where i want to be.




I’m just going to say this, I think you are an exceptional person, as is Mr. JA. I’ve read many of your posts, taken the wisdom within them, and grown myself. I do the same when @sokillme posts, his are also full of wisdom. I have great respect for you both, as I hope you both know others are being helped by your posts. God bless you both.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> > personofinterest said:
> ...


From experience I would hate to be in a relationship, where I had a partner who felt an obligation or compulsion to prostrate themselves to me in order to make amends for sexual infidelity.

More than the infidelity itself it was the considerable prostration, supplication and the demands from my ex-wife that I take retribution against her. That saw me end our relationship.

Perhaps counterintuitively, the more my ex-wife felt compelled to debased herself in order to satiate me, combined with her thinking that I would want her to do that to herself. The more my disgust for her grew.

For me reconciliation is not about submission.

As to this idea that no one ever gets over sexual infidelity, I got over it just fine. Perhaps in part because I don't think sexual infidelity is abuse.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I think people get over infidelity quicker (on average) if they break up with the WS. But it’s much more painful at first.
If they stay together, the relationship may grow into something better/more sophisticated or it may not. There are downsides to each approach.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

"Another thing that bothers me is when the whole marriage becomes about the affair. Maybe they have moved on but if it consumes your marriage it's still not a healthy marriage."

This. Forums are full of this. You can easily spot the people who use their forum participation to di this and receive the secondary gain it gives them.


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## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

sokillme said:


> You make a lot of excuses but he just sounds like any other run of the mill cheater. Actually maybe worse. Bi-polar for sure.


My sister was fond of saying I was making excuses for him, but in reality, I was just observing and making notes and trying to understand what the hell happened to the guy I thought he was. I have a deep need to understand things, and some things are beyond understanding. My divorce attorney said we should file a malpractice claim against the estate of the doctor that handled his kidney stones so horribly. We wouldn't have been the first. The guy died at a football game, of a heart attack, and people came out of the woodwork all over town suing for his incompetence. I was with h for 20 years, and I needed to satisfy myself that he was in control of his faculties and wasn't being manipulated or coerced. 

The reality is, I may or may not meet someone I want to spend the rest of my life with, but I'm in no rush. Given all the years and the family we built with my h, I just wanted to end things quietly and without a lot of drama. I've dated a couple of guys since h and at a host of levels, they didn't measure up to what I need or want in my life. The reality also is, I may never understand what happened to h, what caused him to become what he became, or if that is who he was all along. But I satisfied myself that he was making his own decisions, and he's suffering for it now. I don't take delight in it, but it is just the nature of things.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

The problem with judging others on a forum or evaluating their relationships is this...I only talk about our infidelity here. We rarely discuss it...and it is not a part of our "real world" or our "real life. 
so while you might assume that I live my life punishing myself...or that we are consumed by infidelity..it could not be further from the truth.

This is an infidelity forum...it is where people discuss infidelity. It would be inappropriate for me to discuss Disney world here.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> This is an infidelity forum...it is where people discuss infidelity. It would be inappropriate for me to discuss Disney world here.


Mickey and Minnie go to a marriage counselor. After talking to each of them separately, the doc puts them in a room together and tells Mickey - "I think you're being unfair. Minnie doesn't seem to me to be crazy at all".

To which Mickey replies - "I didn't say she was crazy. I said she was ****ing Goofy "


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Mickey and Minnie go to a marriage counselor. After talking to each of them separately, the doc puts them in a room together and tells Mickey - "I think you're being unfair. Minnie doesn't seem to me to be crazy at all".
> 
> To which Mickey replies - "I didn't say she was crazy. I said she was ****ing Goofy "


perfect!!! I will ask them about it Tuesday


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

sokillme said:


> I don't think MS JA is in a state hyper remorse. I think she mourns the pain she caused, what could have been but importantly the honor she lost. That is not to say that is a selfish thing but she gets that the affair was a real loss to her as well.


For 35 years? There comes a point when everything that needs to be said, has already been said. I don't see what the purpose is. To get approval from betrayed spouses, other than her husband? (since apparently they don't talk about it anymore).
I don't see how it helps other couples facing infidelity; the majority of infidelity stories don't turn out like hers. And it's not because the wayward is not 'remorseful enough'. It's because the majority of BSs kick the WS out, regardless.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> For 35 years? There comes a point when everything that needs to be said, has already been said. I don't see what the purpose is. To get approval from betrayed spouses, other than her husband? (since apparently they don't talk about it anymore).
> I don't see how it helps other couples facing infidelity; the majority of infidelity stories don't turn out like hers. And it's not because the wayward is not 'remorseful enough'. It's because the majority of BSs kick the WS out, regardless.


Well, they certainly helped me, to the point where I didn't need TAM anymore (for the last few years I just peek in now and again). And it's only been over the last four years or so that Mr and Mrs JA have truly worked their stuff out--the previous 30 years were spent not talking about it in any way that was really meaningful to their recovery. johnAdams started a thread here in 2013 I think asking what true remorse looks like, and it was only this that led them to talk about it and allowed Mrs. JA to reach the understanding of remorse that allowed her husband and their marriage finally to heal.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Philat said:


> Well, they certainly helped me, to the point where I didn't need TAM anymore (for the last few years I just peek in now and again). And it's only been over the last four years or so that Mr and Mrs JA have truly worked their stuff out--the previous 30 years were spent not talking about it in any way that was really meaningful to their recovery. johnAdams started a thread here in 2013 I think asking what true remorse looks like, and it was only this that led them to talk about it and allowed Mrs. JA to reach the understanding of remorse that allowed her husband and their marriage finally to heal.


After 30 years, her husband asks what remorse is supposed to look like and then decides to forgive because anonymous strangers explained it to him? Is there a link to this thread?
I can neither find the thread or the poster by the user name johnAdams.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Philat said:


> Well, they certainly helped me, to the point where I didn't need TAM anymore (for the last few years I just peek in now and again). And it's only been over the last four years or so that Mr and Mrs JA have truly worked their stuff out--the previous 30 years were spent not talking about it in any way that was really meaningful to their recovery. johnAdams started a thread here in 2013 I think asking what true remorse looks like, and it was only this that led them to talk about it and allowed Mrs. JA to reach the understanding of remorse that allowed her husband and their marriage finally to heal.


Hello, old friend. Hope all is well with you.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> I can neither find the thread or the poster by the user name johnAdams.


Both long gone from TAM, unfortunately. The discussion of remorse was quite deep. In the end john was led to a publication that hit the nail on the head for him, and he asked Mrs. JA to read it. It was then that she had her epiphany--that what she thought for 30 years was her expression of sorrow for what she had done did not seem to be so to her H.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> After 30 years, her husband asks what remorse is supposed to look like and then decides to forgive because anonymous strangers explained it to him? Is there a link to this thread?
> I can neither find the thread or the poster by the user name johnAdams.


No... because the strangers on this forum recommended books to read and gave sound advice...people like Mr. Blunt and Truthseeker...and B1 and EI and Bfree...people from all walks of life and who come from all different places in infidelity. They helped him and then they helped me. 

One of the best books is How to help your spouse heal from your affair...by Linda McDonald and Not just friends by Shirley Glass....and How to improve your marriage without talking about it...by Patricia love and When good people have affairs..by Mira Kirshenbaum...

See we came here to REALLY find help....and we stayed to pass it on. We did our homework. 

The threads are gone...because back in the day you could delete posts.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> No... because the strangers on this forum recommended books to read and gave sound advice...people like Mr. Blunt and Truthseeker...and B1 and EI and Bfree...people from all walks of life and who come from all different places in infidelity. They helped him and then they helped me.
> 
> One of the best books is How to help your spouse heal from your affair...by Linda McDonald and Not just friends by Shirley Glass....and How to improve your marriage without talking about it...by Patricia love and When good people have affairs..by Mira Kirshenbaum...
> 
> ...


How come you deleted them? If it was helpful to you, it might be helpful to others.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> How come you deleted them? If it was helpful to you, it might be helpful to others.


Because he wanted to. I deleted most of my posts as well. Many folks did.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

3putt said:


> Hello, old friend. Hope all is well with you.


Hi, 3putt! Yes, all is well, life is good. I hope things are the same for you and your family.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> See we came here to REALLY find help....and we stayed to pass it on. We did our homework.


Paying it forward, as it were.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Because he wanted to. I deleted most of my posts as well. Many folks did.




Yes, my question was why you deleted them. Does he know you are writing new posts all over again?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Because I wanted to
And I am not writing them again
In those days we were searching for help

Now we are not 

And yes he reads everything I write 

That’s what being transparent is


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> *Because he wanted to. I deleted most of my posts as well. Many folks did.*


*I'm just exceedingly happy, my dear, that over the many years we've been on here, that you both didn't permanently delete your friendships with me, or for that matter, a lot of other of your longtime, faithful TAM friends!

You're an amazing pair!*


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

You are one of my favorites my Texas friend!! 
Thank you for your kind words


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

arbitrator said:


> *I'm just exceedingly happy, my dear, that over the many years we've been on here, that you both didn't permanently delete your friendships with me, or for that matter, a lot of other of your longtime, faithful TAM friends!
> 
> You're an amazing pair!*



MJA probably got sick of checking her notifications to see I liked another 10 of her posts on this thread. 

They ARE a great testimony but they are not that uncommon. In real life, my wife and I have met so many wonderful successfully recovered couples like the Adams. They may be an anomaly here on a forum because not many like us want to come back and revisit these issues over and over, let alone, deal with all the passive aggressive attacks, agendas and manipulations. Especially a FORMER wayward wife. Even an old timer like MJA has to be careful with nearly every word she posts because there is always going to be triggery betrayed spouses ready to pounce on every perceived or real mistakenly or poorly worded un-caveated post. 

Last summer we sponsored and took a medium sized group to the family life marriage conference - "Weekend to Remember" and one of the speakers/pastors there indicated {to a room full of Christians} that the only way to achieve {recovery/reconciliation/contentment in your relationship} was through God. Through our marriage ministry and personal referrals {and even online} we've helped many couples with infidelity issues regardless of religion and, I have to say there may be some truth to the pastor's words. This thread may be on to something. What if "truly getting it" is a fruit of repentance where repentance is a gift from God reserved or obtainable only to those in a relationship with Him???

My wife "truly got it - to her bones" a hundred years ago {not literally}. She didn't have to suffer betrayal herself. I didn't have any revenge affair. However, we/she did have the benefit of walking alongside many other couples --- helping them with their pain, confusion, and fears, in real time, during their trials with infidelity. It helped her understand it all much better at a time she was no longer under duress and spiritual attack herself. Posting on these forums, former waywards seeking repentance can sometimes similarly gain empathy. Perhaps it's not unlike those that work in emergency rooms that probably have a lot more empathy and understanding about the effects and consequences of drunk driving than the general population even if they didn't personally experience it.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Quality said:


> MJA probably got sick of checking her notifications to see I liked another 10 of her posts on this thread.
> 
> They ARE a great testimony but they are not that uncommon. In real life, my wife and I have met so many wonderful successfully recovered couples like the Adams. They may be an anomaly here on a forum because not many like us want to come back and revisit these issues over and over, let alone, deal with all the passive aggressive attacks, agendas and manipulations. Especially a FORMER wayward wife. Even an old timer like MJA has to be careful with nearly every word she posts because there is always going to be triggery betrayed spouses ready to pounce on every perceived or real mistakenly or poorly worded un-caveated post.
> 
> ...


*It is people like you and The Adams that have helped make the process of forgiveness and reconciliation a worthwhile endeavor.

I wish that it worked for everyone!

May God richly bless you all for the painstaking time that all of you have put into the entire process!*


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

arbitrator said:


> *It is people like you and The Adams that have helped make the process of forgiveness and reconciliation a worthwhile endeavor.
> 
> I wish that it worked for everyone!
> 
> May God richly bless you all for the painstaking time that all of you have put into the entire process!*


I actually made my very first "friend request" here on TAM to you before you even posted this. I always felt a little bad rejecting it years ago when I first arrived here on assignment. I still don't know what it means but I'm willing to risk it. 

I personally believe the "PROCESS of ACTIVELY seeking repentance, forgiveness and reconciliation" works for everyone. It's an exercise in faith and hope that pays dividends for those that seek it regardless of the outcome. The key is in the phrase "*ACTIVELY* seeking". It requires overcoming fears and initiating tough, yet loving, actions {like exposure, saying 'no', confrontation, talking to lawyers, snooping out the truths, holding your spouse accountable} as well as having difficult conversations, even years later, as MJA and her husband had. 

My situation was short-lived but still horrible. Many guys here would have been all over me had I posted the story now, further convincing me that my marriage was hopeless {what I thought}, I was second choice {which I was for a time} and never going to get her back {and why would I want to} and, if I got lucky and acted quickly I could be a 50% coparent of our children. I have known my wife over 35 years. For approximately 414 of those 420 months she has looked at me with loving eyes. For 6 months, a long time ago, she didn't and it nearly killed her and our family. I didn't fear what would happen to me, I feared for her and, as my children's mother, for our children. Exposure worked to bust up the affair and lead her back home; but, that was only a precondition to the real battle of our lives, repentance and forgiveness - by both of us for all our transgressions towards each other and God. That we did together and it's made all the difference.

The point is -- there is always hope and you can {tough} love someone back. Just do your best, stand up for what is right and let God sort out who is redeemable or not. Convicting waywards wasn't my job as a betrayed husband and certainly isn't my job as a poster.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

John and I had a good marriage for all the years I was sorry but not remorseful. He wanted more ... he did not want to settle. He wanted to give me his forgiveness but his fear stopped him. I can’t say this is true for all betrayed spouses .. I can only say it is true for him. He wanted more.. and he kept searching for it... and I am thankful he did. I am glad the we worked hard to jump that final hurdle. We were happy before... we had a good marriage before but once I understood fully what he needed I was able to give it to him... and he was able to fully forgive me and give me his whole heart again. 

If you have not walked in our shoes... you won’t understand what I am trying to explain.

And it’s ok if you don’t understand or don’t agree. We came here to find answers and many folks here helped us find them. You know who you are... and you know we are eternally grateful.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> John and I had a good marriage for all the years I was sorry but not remorseful.


What's the difference? 
Either way, I don't think I could do it this way. It would really irritate the hell out of me if my wife was acting (or feeling) 'remorseful' (as you described in your posts) every day after D Day.

We would try to sort it out once (and for all) and then I would want her to get on with her life and herself and really wouldn't want her to continue to remain in that state of remorse, suppressing herself and submitting to me like that. I don't personally think it would be healthy for either our marriage or her. She is an individual, she made a mistake, everyone is allowed to make a mistake, if I decide to remain with her, that would be MY decision (and on me) and I wouldn't require any major 'acrobatics' from her in order to make myself feel better regarding my decision to remain with her. If I did, I would rather not remain with her and let her be. 

But of course we are all different people and require different things. It's good that you found a way that works for both of you.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

He knew the difference
That’s all the counts


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Only if you have actually experienced infidelity from either end can you know what you really need to do or to have your partner do, regardless of all "woulds."

The difference: Sorry = I regret that you found out what I did and thereby caused such trouble in our lives
Remorse = I am devastated that you have experienced this pain because of my actions

My personal opinion: 2+2=5 is a mistake; infidelity is a deliberate decision to betray.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Philat said:


> Only if you have actually experienced infidelity from either end can you know what you really need to do or to have your partner do, regardless of all "woulds."


Nonsense. Very few people experience infidelity 'from either ends'; it doesn't mean they are not 'qualified' to talk about it. And yes, I have experienced betrayals from either ends (that would be classified potentially as infidelity by this boards' standards). I don't particularly consider them as 'infidelity' myself (nor do I shout from the roof tops about them) but most TAM members might.

I am sure somebody will come along and say: "oh no, but in order to have a legitimate opinion about it, you both had to have anal sex from either ends"...or something similar.
That's a really childish way to try and shut somebody up and make oneself appear morally superior (which is such an oxymoron given the subject matter) instead of addressing a valid point.



Philat said:


> The difference: Sorry = I regret that you found out what I did and thereby caused such trouble in our lives
> Remorse = I am devastated that you have experienced this pain because of my actions


What you wrote (in other words): 
1. Sorry I regret that you found out....
2. Sorry I regret that you experienced the pain...

Both are 'sorrys', all you changed were the other parts of the sentence. 

If you prefer the word 'remorseful', you could also write: 'I am remorseful that you found out that I cheated'...Means EXACT same thing as your first sentence.

Nobody has actually explained what the difference between being sorry and being remorseful is or how being remorseful benefits the relationship better than being sorry.


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

Quality said:


> What if "truly getting it" is a fruit of repentance where repentance is a gift from God reserved or obtainable only to those in a relationship with Him???
> 
> My wife "truly got it - to her bones" a hundred years ago {not literally}. She didn't have to suffer betrayal herself. I didn't have any revenge affair. However, we/she did have the benefit of walking alongside many other couples --- helping them with their pain, confusion, and fears, in real time, during their trials with infidelity. It helped her understand it all much better at a time she was no longer under duress and spiritual attack herself. Posting on these forums, former waywards seeking repentance can sometimes similarly gain empathy. Perhaps it's not unlike those that work in emergency rooms that probably have a lot more empathy and understanding about the effects and consequences of drunk driving than the general population even if they didn't personally experience it.


I hope you're not saying that in order to recover, the couple must be believers in God.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Nonsense. Very few people experience infidelity 'from either ends'; it doesn't mean they are not 'qualified' to talk about it. And yes, I have experienced betrayals from either ends (that would be classified potentially as infidelity by this boards' standards). I don't particularly consider them as 'infidelity' myself (nor do I shout from the roof tops about them) but most TAM members might.
> 
> I am sure somebody will come along and say: "oh no, but in order to have a legitimate opinion about it, you both had to have anal sex from either ends"...or something similar.
> That's a really childish way to try and shut somebody up and make oneself appear morally superior (which is such an oxymoron given the subject matter) instead of addressing a valid point.
> ...


I'm going to regret this (I just know). It isn't 'sorry' or 'remorseful'. Sorrow is present in both regret and remorse. The difference is regret focuses on the feelings of the perpetrator and remorse focuses on the feelings of the victim. 

Your #1: Sorry, I regret you found out because now my ass is in a sling and I'm going to have to tap dance for awhile.
#2: Sorry that I have caused you such pain and I will do everything in my power to ease that pain and ensure I don't cause you pain, again.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

Quality said:


> What if "truly getting it" is a fruit of repentance where repentance is a gift from God reserved or obtainable only to those in a relationship with Him???


God gives His gifts to all people, whether they choose to have a close relationship with Him, or not. Repentance is obtainable for all people.

But, there is no doubt, that, as the bible testifies of itself:

Hebrews 4:12 (KJV)

_For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
_

That His special gift of His word, the bible, presents considerable help to anyone seeking repentance. This help from God, intended for all men, can only be exercised and useful to those who believe God was the inspiration for its authors.

I think it's reasonable to say that those who have a close relationship to God will find a "place of repentance" more easily and quickly than those who don't. But, it is nevertheless, possible.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> I'm going to regret this (I just know).


Don’t be so regretful (yet non-remorseful? )



Blondilocks said:


> It isn't 'sorry' or 'remorseful'. Sorrow is present in both regret and remorse. The difference is regret focuses on the feelings of the perpetrator and remorse focuses on the feelings of the victim.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yours is a fine explanation. But if you follow back the quote, I never compared ‘regret’ with ‘remorse’. The original quote focused on MJA’s phrase: ‘I was sorry but not remorseful’. I asked to clarify what the difference is, in the poster’s mind. ‘Regret’ was then used as a synonym for ‘sorry’ by another poster to construct two totally different sentences.

I don’t know if you looked at the actual definition for ‘remorse’, but the first one is funnily enough ‘regret’ and ‘sorrow’:

http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/remorse

In my mind, ‘remorse’ focuses more on the act (acting remorsefully). This comes across throughout MJA’s posts. For example it would be more appropriate to say that her posts are full of remorse. 
While sorrow is more a feeling, rather than act.

Maybe I’m also wrong but rather than getting stuck on definitions, my broader point is that I don’t feel a marriage is fully functional (it wouldn’t be functional for me) as long as one party hangs their head in shame (remorse) 24/7 and is acting out of character to try and atone for something. And I don’t think it is healthy for one partner to expect the other partner to live with that behaviour.

As a BS, I would either accept that the partner is sorry for whatever they did or reject it.
This whole ‘truly getting it’ has a bit of a self-indulgent whiff to it and while it plays nicely to the egos of many BSs, I think there is a line somewhere where the BS either forgives or admits that they are not capable of forgiving so that both could move on with their lives, either together or separately.

Living in this constant ‘remorseful’ state seems a ‘shame’ (ha, another synonym) in itself to me.
But that’s just my opinion.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Not everyone is religious, I know. But, in my prime, one of the reasons that I understand where you are coming from is because I am a Christian. For someone who professes to believe in Christ and The Bible. Lifetime flagellation is actually spitting in the face of what God gave us. When we repent of our sin and ask his forgiveness Khama he separates our sin from us as far as the East is from the West. When I think I have to find a magic formula for my sin to be good enough for it to be forgiven, I am saying that I know better than God. And when I cama as a Christian, refuse to forgive another for an act that has earthly consequences, when I have been forgiven from eternal consequences, I am saying that what a human did to me is worse than what I did to God. Both are actually rooted in pride.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> Not everyone is religious, I know. But, in my prime, one of the reasons that I understand where you are coming from is because I am a Christian. For someone who professes to believe in Christ and The Bible. *Lifetime flagellation is actually spitting in the face of what God gave us.* When we repent of our sin and ask his forgiveness Khama he separates our sin from us as far as the East is from the West. When I think I have to find a magic formula for my sin to be good enough for it to be forgiven, I am saying that I know better than God. And when I cama as a Christian, refuse to forgive another for an act that has earthly consequences, when I have been forgiven from eternal consequences, I am saying that what a human did to me is worse than what I did to God. Both are actually rooted in pride.


I didn't know this and never had it put this way...but it makes sense to me.

I think the whole cilice belt and the corporal mortification thing had me confused...It always seemed there is an innate need for humans to live with a sense of guilt (sin) and constantly atone for it. It's as if it almost gives a person a sense of purpose that they wouldn't have otherwise.

As for Christianity...I do like a lot of it. I just don't like what some people do with it...and in the end it is difficult not to conclude that most religions are made for selfish purposes. I think it takes a person of certain character to extract the best from it. But then the credit should go to the person's character and not so much to religion...I dunno. Too early for me to get all 'high' on this topic. :nerd:


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> Not everyone is religious, I know. But, in my prime, one of the reasons that I understand where you are coming from is because I am a Christian. For someone who professes to believe in Christ and The Bible. Lifetime flagellation is actually spitting in the face of what God gave us. When we repent of our sin and ask his forgiveness Khama he separates our sin from us as far as the East is from the West. When I think I have to find a magic formula for my sin to be good enough for it to be forgiven, I am saying that I know better than God. And when I cama as a Christian, refuse to forgive another for an act that has earthly consequences, when I have been forgiven from eternal consequences, I am saying that what a human did to me is worse than what I did to God. Both are actually rooted in pride.


Getting forgiveness from God or Jesus is one thing, but getting forgiveness from the one you betrayed is another. You can't pray one night and make it go away. Maybe its not saying you know better than God, but you know you are NOT God and are not capable or atleast not willing of that type of forgiveness.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

I don't think it is possible for a WS to "get it" completely, as regards the pain and emotional turmoil of the BS. Every person has a unique set of gifts and temperaments, and has experienced a unique life. These are all factors which have "weight" in how the BS interprets the actions of the WS, and how the BS reacts to the things the WS has done and said.

I also think there is no "judgement call" the BS can make about whether he/she will forgive the WS. Besides being in the best emotional interests of the BS, forgiveness is a command of our Lord.....that we WILL.

The real question is not of forgiveness, but rather of whether, or not, we want to reconcile and continue the relationship. We have a choice, there. None of our Lord's instructions say that we should put ourselves back into harm's way as a result of forgiveness.

We are "fruit inspectors". What I wanted to hear from my WS is that she "owned" her actions, and did not, in any way whatsoever, blame me for her own sin and selfishness.



Blondilocks said:


> Your #1: Sorry, I regret you found out because now my ass is in a sling and I'm going to have to tap dance for awhile.
> 
> #2: Sorry that I have caused you such pain and I will do everything in my power to ease that pain and ensure I don't cause you pain, again.


In my mind, #2 is a "get it". #1 is not.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

I look at it like this 
I am sorry is concentrating on my feelings

I am remorseful concentrated on the person I injured

You need both 

I am sorry is a feeling

Being remorseful becomes an action ... remorse means you are willing to do something about it

I was sorry for a long time
But when I understood that remorse required actively concentrating on the pain I had caused and doing everything in my power to alleviate the pain... I achieved true remorse. 

I cannot concentrate on his pain if I am feeling sorry for myself. I am sorry is still internal. Remorse is taking action.

You may not agree ... but this is what worked for us. 

We are more connected than we have ever been.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Getting forgiveness from God or Jesus is one thing, but getting forgiveness from the one you betrayed is another. You can't pray one night and make it go away. Maybe its not saying you know better than God, but you know you are NOT God and are not capable or atleast not willing of that type of forgiveness.


You have missed the entire point, which is to be expected.

Bottom line - if you profess Christianity, then being a lifetime penetant or expecting lifetime penance are not compatible with what you say you believe.

Not because I say so. Because God and the Bible say so.

It has nothing to do with praying away hurt or feelings. It is a choice.

There are verses in the Bible that say God will forgive us in the same way we forgive others. So yeah...we CAN forgive.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> You have missed the entire point, which is to be expected.
> 
> Bottom line - if you profess Christianity, then being a lifetime penetant or expecting lifetime penance are not compatible with what you say you believe.
> 
> ...


Someone piss in your cornflakes this morning?


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## Pepe1970 (Aug 25, 2017)

May I ask, did you both have affairs???


Mrs. John Adams said:


> I too am a mad hatter. We both understand what we have done and are remorseful. It has been 35 years...and triggers do still happen. But those triggers no longer send us into depression like they once did. Now...it is just a sad memory. We both still wish it had not happened...we regret it everyday. But we are happy we are still together and we have a good life. Infidelity will always be in our past...but it no longer defines our future.


Sent from my QMV7A using Tapatalk


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## MovingForward (Jan 19, 2017)

Nope, my XW we do not communicate but she will talk bad about me to anyone who will listen. According to her she is also living the dream, has her dream man(AP) lives with him in a new bigger and more expensive house, has a paid car and 6 figures in the bank(divorce settlement) had a pay rise, alimony, child support and only has the kids half the time so spends much more time traveling and enjoying life, in her mind I am sure this exceeds her expectation of divorce.


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## Pepe1970 (Aug 25, 2017)

Well just to answer to that threat main question........
In my personal case ........ I think she gets it but sometimes I feel her behavior is like....... "Well what do you expect" , "you cheated on me first".
Which really ties my hands since she might be right and makes me rugsweep a bit.

Sent from my QMV7A using Tapatalk


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

MovingForward said:


> Nope, my XW we do not communicate but she will talk bad about me to anyone who will listen. According to her she is also living the dream, has her dream man(AP) lives with him in a new bigger and more expensive house, has a paid car and 6 figures in the bank(divorce settlement) had a pay rise, alimony, child support and only has the kids half the time so spends much more time traveling and enjoying life, in her mind I am sure this exceeds her expectation of divorce.


Don't be surprised if she isn't in any hurry to remarry her dream man since that might spell the end of alimony. Makes you want to pull your eyeballs out doesn't it?


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

Sometimes I think until it happens to you, you never really get it.

Certain things stand out about H's EA...one is during that time when I had no clue and say we had an argument, etc about something I would merrily go along thinking everything was okay and now I look back and think those times just fueled his EA...he would probably even more justify in his head what he was doing. While I was going along not having a clue about what he was doing behind my back (texting/skyping with his long distance EA)...that part still ticks me off.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Someone piss in your cornflakes this morning?


No, it is just that when people are intentionally obtuse it bugs me.


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## MovingForward (Jan 19, 2017)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Don't be surprised if she isn't in any hurry to remarry her dream man since that might spell the end of alimony. Makes you want to pull your eyeballs out doesn't it?



She has been telling kids for months that they are a family and all brothers and sisters etc but for sure no hurry to get married LOL. I am hoping to get Alimony reduced shortly currently waiting for a lawyer to get back to me, if I am able she may want to speed up marriage so she can be on his health insurance.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

MovingForward said:


> She has been telling kids for months that they are a family and all brothers and sisters etc but for sure no hurry to get married LOL. I am hoping to get Alimony reduced shortly currently waiting for a lawyer to get back to me, if I am able she may want to speed up marriage so she can be on his health insurance.


Alimony for unfaithful spouses is a cruel joke. When they are in a live-in situation with thier boyfriend, its a legal travesty. Wish you luck.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Alimony for unfaithful spouses is a cruel joke. When they are in a live-in situation with thier boyfriend, its a legal travesty. Wish you luck.


Agreed 100% i know of a case a good friend of mine his WW waited to remarry until she got every last dine from him. Her new bf would unofficially live with her but he didnt have.the.money to.hire a PI to prove.it. Disgusting.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I look at it like this
> I am sorry is concentrating on my feelings
> 
> I am remorseful concentrated on the person I injured
> ...


So what do you actually think you can do to alleviate his pain in practice? _Feeling_ very remorseful? But feeling is not an 'action' so what is it that you are doing that is in your power that are actions to alleviate that pain?

I am curious because I am trying to understand what you mean. And I think it might be useful for other WSs to understand what you mean.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

My take is that since remorse is other-focused, the action taken as a result will also be other-focused.

Ex.: instead of asking "when will he trust me again," I ask "what can I do to help HIM to feel safe?"


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> My take is that since remorse is other-focused, the action taken as a result will also be other-focused.
> 
> Ex.: instead of asking "when will he trust me again," I ask "what can I do to help HIM to feel safe?"


Yes and that's fine but my question had more to do with: what does she think she _can_ do?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > My take is that since remorse is other-focused, the action taken as a result will also be other-focused.
> ...


Moot. You mean what she DID.

I get that it messes with your paradigm...but Mr and Mrs JA have a successful recovery and good marriage.

Why the primal need to try to poke holes and play "gotcha"????


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Yes, my question was why you deleted them. Does he know you are writing new posts all over again?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You keep picking don't you? I don't think you get it.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> Moot. You mean what she DID.
> 
> I get that it messes with your paradigm...but Mr and Mrs JA have a successful recovery and good marriage.
> 
> Why the primal need to try to poke holes and play "gotcha"????


I was actually genuinely curious, believe it or not, what you *can* do as WS since being remorseful is supposed to be an _action_ rather than a feeling.

As for successful recovery...if for 30 odd years the 'sorry' was not enough but the 'remorse' of the last 4 years somehow fixed it: I guess better late than never. But it's somehow difficult to imagine the dynamic not getting permanently damaged during 3 decades of it not working.

But...not my monkeys not my circus, as I learnt that expression here.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> So what do you actually think you can do to alleviate his pain in practice? _Feeling_ very remorseful? But feeling is not an 'action' so what is it that you are doing that is in your power that are actions to alleviate that pain?
> 
> I am curious because I am trying to understand what you mean. And I think it might be useful for other WSs to understand what you mean.


Curious. Mr. and Mrs. JA have been around for a long time. Lots of folks have figured out what she meant. You seemingly can't. Perhaps the fault, dear sir, lies with you?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

sidney2718 said:


> Curious. Mr. and Mrs. JA have been around for a long time. Lots of folks have figured out what she meant. You seemingly can't. Perhaps the fault, dear sir, lies with you?


Perhaps. It really wouldn't be that difficult to clarify.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Perhaps. It really wouldn't be that difficult to clarify.


How would you know that? You claim not to understand the difference between sorrow and remorse. Have you tried a dictionary?

By the way, do your parents know that you are posting on this forum?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

sidney2718 said:


> How would you know that? You claim not to understand the difference between sorrow and remorse. Have you tried a dictionary?


I have actually, if you read anything I posted.



sidney2718 said:


> By the way, do your parents know that you are posting on this forum?


Haha, that's so original. I don't know. I will ask them once I finish up my homework.

Anyway, that's probably enough for today. There will be red ink everywhere soon.


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## Understand60 (May 3, 2018)

Inmyprime,

This may help with your issue knowing the difference between sorrow and remorse.

In the English language, Remorse means the following:

noun, deep and painful regret for wrongdoing; compunction.

So from a strictly literal grammatical point of view, remorse, is just a handy way of stating that you have regret, shame, guilt and so fourth for your actions. I think for us here, a larger meaning is evident. We have had many give their personal meaning from Mrs J.A, and others. Each has a take, and "knows" what this means, but in relating gives a twist.

Here is what I think, Remorse, true remorse, in the context of infidelity, or any action(s) that you have done to grievously wound your spouse, child or other family members, is the ability to look beyond yourself, your well being, and your own interests and feel the pain and hurt caused by your actions, and in so doing, begin to try and make things right to restore trust in an relationship. It is allowing the injured person to select what they need to heal, from you, and for you to supply it to the best of your understanding and ability. At it core, you place their needs above your own, and take on any discomfort, embarrassment, shame, security and loss of secrecy, that is needed to repair your and theirs relationship. You must lastly become an open book, and live mutually transparent with them.

Of course, there are limits. I would say, physical harm, or loss of human dignity should not be offered, or accepted, but the one who has trespassed, must be willing to put the other ahead of them in the relationship.

Being Sorry, is just that, one is sorry for their circumstance, and this focuses everything on them. It does not focus on the party that was injured. 

My two cents.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Understand60 said:


> Inmyprime,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for the explanation; I do understand what is being implied here with the difference in the two words even though in dictionaries, sorrow and remorse are frequently used interchangeably:

“Remorse: a feeling of sadness and being sorry for something you have done”

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/dictionary.cambridge.org/amp/english/remorse

For example, are you showing remorse or sorrow if you say:
“I’m so sorry for causing you so much pain. Is there anything I can do to alleviate it?”

I think “sorrow” is getting undersold slightly here to illustrate a point.
——-

But the main question here for me is (and unfortunately it is getting lost in the noise): is remorse a continuous process or a one time recognition of a wrong doing? I think that’s an important question.

The problem for me lies with the two extremely contrasting view points:

that there are cheaters and that there are non cheaters. One is a personality flaw, the other view is that it is a mistake that is ‘out of character’ for that person (implying that everyone is NOT a cheater yet there is the potential to cheat in everyone; some have stronger potential, some have weaker potential but it is always there).

The first point of view then requires a fundamental change in character and living with remorse seems to be the accepted (barely) way to achieve this when it comes to R.

If however the second view is correct (and I lean more towards the second point of view as it seems more realistic to me, given what I understand about human nature, but with the caveat that serial cheating does point to a character flaw as it becomes a ‘life style’ choice), then I question the usefulness and benefits of living your life with continuous feeling of remorse lurking in the background (shame, guilt, deep sorrow etc whatever way you do it to SHOW your partner you are remorseful).

It is not the partner that one fell in love with originally and an eternally skewed/wounded dynamic is not a dynamic that is stimulating for both people in the end (it wouldn’t be for me).

But everyone will take away something different and something useful for themselves from their own understanding and interpretation so lets just leave it at that. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Here's the thing… people are people and they are individuals. We don't all carry Webster's around in our back pockets. So if someone finds value in something that you personally don't understand, that's not necessarily your Q to berate them and parse everything they say and till they somehow concede that you are right. That's exactly what it seems like you have been doing through many pages of this thread. Just let it freaking go.


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## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

Okay, in fairness to @inmyprime, I can see some of the reasons he's asking the way he is. He's in London, I'm half English. Some of us are very cerebral. But I'm also very visual. I often need to see or observe something to understand it. Two, when I thought my h had come home years ago and was prepared to reconcile, I was active in a MLC forum, where the reconcilers were treated like aristocracy and royalty and the rest of us lived downstairs with Mrs. Patmore and Daisy. So even though I knew the dictionary definition of reconciliation (some things beggar description in words - human languages are limited) I asked, on the thread for people in reconciliation, my h is home and seems to be talking the talk, but what does reconciliation REALLy look like? The answer I got was sort of twofold - one, it's not our job to tell you (as in, f*** off), and two, the kinder gentler ones said, you'll just know it when you see it. Either way, they weren't much help or very interested in drawing out the conversation. To them, it either happened or it didn't. IMP reminds me of me, in that I seek to understand things because there just sometimes are things I don't intuit or grasp emotionally, or haven't experienced. It's part of the way I process information, and possibly partstiff British upper lip upbringing that my mother and some other members of my family embrace (not all Brits do, but some still do, especially those from families like mine where my grandparents were once in service, and literally WERE Mrs. Patmore and Daisy). 

What I think IMP is asking is, what does remorse LOOK like? We've established that it is an action. So in light of personofinterest's rejection of perpetual flagellation (there's a history behind that stemming from Augustine but it evolved to an art form during periods of plague and death in the Middle Ages and the church's claim that illness was being visited upon them by God because people were sinful, and self-flagellation was an extreme but very obvious form of expressing penitence that God could see), I think inmyprime is imagining remorse to be a defeated attitude of "I suck so much" that destroys self-esteem and changes the balance of the partnership. 

Despite all my inexperience, I am seeing remorse in my ex at the moment. It comes and goes. He is not looking for flagellation but he'll take it, in between his determination to get a divorce from the crazy woman he's been married to less than 18 months (and who has already cheated on him). He invited me to tell him "I told you so," and I declined. He had a long talk with his mother (also of British descent, and plain-spoken and even assertive - and everyone is entitled to her opinion, which is a trait or hers, not her heritage) about all that has happened since he left me, and she finally told him he was either a fool or stupid. My ex has always had the ability to act like a victim, but in this case, he is really getting that he screwed up and that he hurt me badly, and he has two families pretty much pissed off at him about that. At the moment he is with his family, and his mother asked him if he came back here, could he stay with me; he constantly tells me how much the family loves me. I love them too. But HE is getting that he screwed up badly. And he's not getting it just because there are consequences for him. He's got, to speak like my American family, a s***-ton of rebuilding to do, burned bridges that have to be reconstructed. 

But he is also being very clear that he is going to make his own arrangements and meet his own needs, and that's a good thing because like MJA, he married his high school sweetheart, the first girl he dated, and has been adulting since he was 18, really 15 when his father died and I have no doubt Mom whispered in his ear about being the man of the family. And there are times I feel he is talking to me just to have someone listen (and sometimes when I can't get a word in edgewise I feel he's being selfish, but then I back up, shut, and listen); it's not a conversation, it is a monologue, but if I listen carefully I hear regret, sorrow, and yes, remorse. Other times the remorse is direct and straightforward. But it is painful for him, and he can't stay in a state of that much emotional pain for very long at one time. In these early stages of his realization, it isn't pouring out, but it is trickling out. So I could see why it would take 4 years for MJA and JA to have conversations and change behaviors and adapt. Unlike MJA and JA, I'm not experiencing his awakening with him in my presence. 

Anyway, the point is, I am seeing remorse in my ex, IMP. And it is not a self-flagellation, it is not a destruction of his self-esteem or personhood. It is a process of profound growth. To me, it seems as if his eyes have been opened to see other people and not his own selfish desires that got him into the situation with the OW. He sees, as a result of how badly hurt he has been by this woman, what hurt feels like, and he is realizing that he has inflicted that kind of hurt on me. He had to experience it, I guess, in order to get it. Many people here will say that makes him immoral, or heartless, or unfeeling. I don't necessarily agree. I think he made it to the tender age of 50-something and was still naive (and that's not excuse, that's just reality). But any of us could be at any moment, as you say, and that's why society and religion have erected boundaries around the way we're expected to treat each other. There's also the individual element as well. Most of us set out to be monogamous, but the test of our mettle is whether when a temptation comes, our commitment holds. 

Someone told me once about a novel that I'd never read and can't remember the name of it; a librarian friend from Canada was telling me about the moment in this novel where a character in the novel, a woman isn't able to see the things her family and friends complain about in her. Evidently she's a terrible person from their perspective, but like a lot of us, she is guided by her intentions, that she means well, that her controlling and demanding behaviors are causing problems for others, but one day, all of a sudden, she gets it; she gets that intentions don't always justify actions or outcomes, and that she has harmed people, and she looks at herself in the mirror and she grasps it and she falls dead of a heart attack. 

My ex is exhausted more hours out of the day than he is active or productive. He's wiped out by his realization. He's seeing what he did, and I'm sort of watching that realization (via text and phone calls and emails) unfold. It was a long time coming, it was necessary for his growth, but it is hard to watch . . . not as hard as it is on him, but hard to watch.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

@TeddieG, why are you subjecting yourself to your ex's awakening and epiphanies? Do you hope to reconcile?


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## Pepe1970 (Aug 25, 2017)

Hello there maam, sorry to bother you but I was wondering I you grant me permission to exchange a few PMs with you.

Sent from my QMV7A using Tapatalk


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## harperlee (May 1, 2018)

sidney2718 said:


> Curious. Mr. and Mrs. JA have been around for a long time. Lots of folks have figured out what she meant. You seemingly can't. Perhaps the fault, dear sir, lies with you?


I understand what inmyprime means. I'm new, obviously, but the question is clear. To answer @inmyprime, they like it and it is working for them. If the van is rocking, do not come knocking. :wink2:

To the OP, I don't think that a cheater who chooses to reconcile ever 'gets' it entirely. What's to get? They cheated because they wanted to, they did exactly what they felt needed at the time. Either the cheater is a self absorbed twit who should be divorced or they are passive aggressive and by cheating, hostile toward their spouse.

If the discontent and lack of communication are addressed with compromise, renewed respect and transparent communication; the marriage may be salvaged and even reinvigorated.

If a BS feels the need after time for the WS to label themselves a 'monster,' there are other more complex issues at hand. If reading a reconciled spouse calling themselves a monster is acceptable to forgiving BS, then a person may ponder the dynamic of said reconciliation.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> I think inmyprime is imagining remorse to be a defeated attitude of "I suck so much" that destroys self-esteem and changes the balance of the partnership.


Honestly, I think you will find a lot of BS's who want this. They say they don't but they do. Problem is....if we are taking the definition that remorse is not about MY pain or ME but about the person I hurt....the above is about as far from remorse as can be.

As long as I am lamenting my vileness, the focus is still on ME. I think self-loathing actually PREVENTS true remorse.

True remorse is, in over-simplified terms - caring for your injured spouse in whatever way THEY need.


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## harperlee (May 1, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> Honestly, I think you will find a lot of BS's who want this. They say they don't but they do. Problem is....if we are taking the definition that remorse is not about MY pain or ME but about the person I hurt....the above is about as far from remorse as can be.
> 
> As long as I am lamenting my vileness, the focus is still on ME. I think self-loathing actually PREVENTS true remorse.
> 
> *True remorse is, in over-simplified terms - caring for your injured spouse in whatever way THEY need.*


Agree, but what caused the cheater to cheat in the first place, assuming they are not disordered. If the cheater was discontented with the marriage/spouse, felt their needs were not being met, falling on deaf ears and cheated as dysfunctional frustration...would remorse by caring for the injured spouse in 'whatever they need' facilitate an honest reconciliation? Isn't this heaping more resentment on the original pile?

Shouldn't it end up being, for a true R, whatever WE need?


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

harperlee said:


> Agree, but what caused the cheater to cheat in the first place,


That would be the cheater's own selfishness and sin. It can never be said that the BS "caused" the WS to cheat. Cheating is a CHOICE which is made unilaterally by the WS.

There are utterly countless spouses whose needs are not met in their marriage, even for years, even decades, who never cheat. They CHOOSE to take their marital vows seriously, even in the face of the frustration of being married.



harperlee said:


> Shouldn't it end up being, for a true R, whatever WE need?


Yes. There will come a time when what the WS needs should be supplied by the BS. Unfortunately, the adultery is such a heinous act of betrayal, that the WS will have to "take a back seat" until a resolution to the affair itself can be managed.

Any assertion by the WS that the BS did, or did not do, anything to "cause" the cheating, should be categorically rejected by the BS as unmitigated hogwash. The WS had two alternative choices, either of which would be far more honorable than cheating:

1) seek counseling, therapy, pastor, slf-help literature, and discuss the unmet needs with the spouse;
2) separate and divorce the spouse in a FAIR and EQUITABLE manner.

"Blame-shifting" causes the WS to be bagged as "not get it".


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## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

Blondilocks said:


> @TeddieG, why are you subjecting yourself to your ex's awakening and epiphanies? Do you hope to reconcile?


No. I had hoped to have some questions answered. And other people had told me what to expect if he came to his senses He had a situation with a medical issue that changed him, and he became different. It's a long story, but I had questions about what caused him to snap, to change, to be someone different overnight. 

He has been taking care of his physical health in the last two years or so after a heart attack and surgery for an aneurysm in 2015, just before my mother died. He seems different now that he's on his meds, better, more like himself, and I have a relative who is a doctor. He says that people who survive the first heart attack are in much better health thereafter because everything is investigated, explored, and treated. That seems to be the case with my ex. 

We have been having talks. I chided him today for taking such delight in the fact that his OW soon-to-be-xw wept in the phone when she found out he had filed for divorce. He absolutely delighted it in. I've felt for a long time that he was passive agressive with women because his mother was passive-aggressive with all the kids, but him in particular. He is furious with OW/STBXW for cheating on him. I told him that I too was happy he was getting free of a cheater, and a person who manipulated him for his money, but that I could empathize somewhat with her if she ever loved him at all, because I felt the same gut-wrenching pain when told me he had cheated on me and wanted a divorce. 

Even so, there was something about him during that time when I felt he wasn't fully in control of all of his mental faculties. He has since admitted that is true, not just then but now. He also told me and the family and friends that we were right and he was making a mistake leaving me for the OW, and for marrying her. But he is also trying to describe moments when he knew he was being played and felt too weak to fight it, times when he knew he needed to be self-protective and acted, and moments when he was completely willing to do whatever he selfishly felt like. He has significant debt, he says, because he admitted that he wanted a new refrigerator because he didn't like the sound of the old one, or he wanted a remodeled bathroom, or a new floor in the kitchen, or new carpet. He said she never appreciated and valued any of that. He's being much more honest, much less the victim, and much more aware of a host of things. Still, there are very short windows when he can talk about it. 

But he himself admitted that he knew he was making a mistake and that he should not have married her, but he let her family confront him about his appearance and disappearance in her life and demand that he show up or ship out, and he caved. He is also admitting that he doesn't know why he didn't have the intestinal fortitude to make a different choice, so he's not able to answer any of my questions about why he did what he did, but he's at least able to explain that he was cognizant and aware that he truly was the split personality that I was seeing. So I wasn't imagining it or dreaming it. He was one person on any given day, and another on another. He seems to have seamed those two back together, aware of when he's being a **** or a monster and aware of his tender vulnerable side, and now he tends to man up more for his mistakes and the responsibility for his choices. And I am interacting with him perhaps as I should have done before, in more assertive ways or more detached ways. 

He's moving on from the woman he's divorcing and building a life; some friends of his have a rental house he's going to live in. I've already moved on, long ago. He's making clear that he's glad to have my forgiveness and that he knew he was hurting me, but didn't want to or intend to, but he concedes he did. I got the chance to say, if you didn't want to be with me anymore, if you had needs I wasn't meeting, why didn't you say that, say you needed to move on, why did you cheat on me? And then he confirmed what I suspected; that the day he called me, the weekend of July 4, to tell me he cheated was the day their relationship became physical. In mid-June he had said he loved me but wasn't in love with me, so I asked him to move out. He'd been in a relationship with her probably since December, but it became a PA the weekend of July 4 (he had taken me to the lake on Memorial Day weekend, to see if I would make love with him in the cab of the truck, right on the edge of the lake, with people bringing their boats up on the ramp; I declined. I guess she didn't). Looking back, I remember still the impression he gave me that it was a one-time thing and he was telling me in order to be accountable and so we could work things out, and in recent conversations he confirmed that is precisely what he intended. But he got sucked in.

He's confirming for me what I thought I saw and heard; what I'm also discovering is that sometimes his forgetfulness and his evening sundowning means that he tells a story one way one time, and another way another time, and sometimes he tells me (or his mother) the same story a third time because he's forgotten he's told us twice. 

Just things like that. I really didn't have anyone in real life to talk to about anything I went through with him, and no one to affirm what I thought I was seeing or hearing or experiencing. So he has. It has been healing for both of us.


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## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

harperlee said:


> Agree, but what caused the cheater to cheat in the first place, assuming they are not disordered. If the cheater was discontented with the marriage/spouse, felt their needs were not being met, falling on deaf ears and cheated as dysfunctional frustration...would remorse by caring for the injured spouse in 'whatever they need' facilitate an honest reconciliation? Isn't this heaping more resentment on the original pile?
> 
> Shouldn't it end up being, for a true R, whatever WE need?


I believe, and my ex does too, that at some levels he was disordered. That's my thing. We're still not reconciling, in the sense that we're attempting to restore the marriage. I suppose we're reconciling the friendship.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

harperlee said:


> Agree, but what caused the cheater to cheat in the first place, assuming they are not disordered. If the cheater was discontented with the marriage/spouse, felt their needs were not being met, falling on deaf ears and cheated as dysfunctional frustration...would remorse by caring for the injured spouse in 'whatever they need' facilitate an honest reconciliation? Isn't this heaping more resentment on the original pile?
> 
> Shouldn't it end up being, for a true R, whatever WE need?


I wasn't speaking of recovery. I was speaking of remorse. You don't get to critique the marriage and call it remorse. For sure, if the marriage was bad, it should be addressed eventually. But I was speaking of remorse. Remorse is NOT me letting my BS know why I was unhappy.


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## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

The challenge for me is, I guess, is that even though I am talking with my ex and confirming the way I interpreted his actions or words, because he hurt me so much (even if it was the ****head monster personality), I don't think I could handle his remorse in person (we're talking long distance) and see his concern, his desire, it were there, to ask me what I need, in the sense of one spouse helping another spouse heal. I can handle it as a friend, but it would really kind of make me nauseous to entrust my healing and the meeting of my need coming from him, for a whole host of reasons. I think I have moved along enough that I don't think of him as a husband or husband material anymore. I just don't know that I would trust how sincere his desire to provide what I need would be, and I don't know that I feel I "need" him to do anything for me or want him to do anything that has to do with any "need" I might have.


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## harperlee (May 1, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> I wasn't speaking of recovery. I was speaking of remorse. You don't get to critique the marriage and call it remorse. For sure, if the marriage was bad, it should be addressed eventually. But I was speaking of remorse. Remorse is NOT me letting my BS know why I was unhappy.


Yes, agree. Remorse for the inappropriate action of sexual/emotional betrayal. Despite any and all disenchantment. If only every 'decent' cheater (worthy of reconciliation) were so self aware, lol.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> Honestly, I think you will find a lot of BS's who want this. They say they don't but they do. Problem is....if we are taking the definition that remorse is not about MY pain or ME but about the person I hurt....the above is about as far from remorse as can be.
> 
> As long as I am lamenting my vileness, the focus is still on ME. I think self-loathing actually PREVENTS true remorse.


Yes exactly. It's the self loathing that I think was mostly bugging me that seems to be going hand in hand with remorse for some reason.



personofinterest said:


> True remorse is, in over-simplified terms - caring for your injured spouse in whatever way THEY need.


The other question for me is whether 'true remorse' is even a thing and not just some ideal we erect in our minds. For example if your best friend looses a loved one and you say 'if there is anything I can do to help your pain'. What _*can you*_ actually do? I am sure you will mean it (that you would do anything) and you would want to feel in some ways useful, but can you really do anything much, beyond being a good friend and providing comfort that way? (Unless you can somehow bring the dead, there is *nothing* you can do).

In my opinion this 'self-loathing' in relation with 'remorse' is a waste of time; all you can realistically do is be as good a spouse as you can be from the moment on you decided to R (which you should be anyway, wether you cheated or not). The BS needs the time to heal but I really question the usefulness of the whole self loathing/remorse ritual act as it doesn't strike me as genuine somehow. 
If you can forgive after the whole ritual, it means you can forgive (and you don't *need* the self loathing, only your ego does).

Perhaps it can be done in a way that is genuine but I myself would much rather my partner would just give me some space to mourn/heal/deal with the turmoil myself and I would prefer they channeled their energies into being a good partner and person from then onwards. 

See, when you take both egos out of the equation, it becomes very obvious (to me at least) that neither remorse nor revenge is in any way relevant to the outcome. If you cannot forgive the unforgivable, you have to learn to live with it. Just as you can never 'accept' the loss of a loved one, yet you learn to get on with your life somehow, in spite of it. 

I don't know. I am still trying to understand it by thinking out loud and haven't made up my mind.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

TJW said:


> That would be the cheater's own selfishness and sin. It can never be said that the BS "caused" the WS to cheat. Cheating is a CHOICE which is made unilaterally by the WS.


Yes, it's a choice. In the same way that it was also Eve's choice to listen to the snake. So what? They always forget to mention who put the snake there in the first place.
'Choice' is complicated.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Yes exactly. It's the self loathing that I think was mostly bugging me that seems to be going hand in hand with remorse for some reason.


Some here seem to think that remorse is rending sack cloth and wearing ashes.

It's not. You don't have to come here and ululate in the forum over your own miserable carcass. You don't have to convince anyone here that you are remorseful - only your spouse. 

Remorse is doing everything in your power to compensate your spouse for the suffering you caused, up to and including taking on additional suffering for yourself that you may have balked at before the affair. Within reason, your spouse gets whatever she wants as part of the reconciliation. I don't mean gifts of money - I mean you go to counseling if requested, you become transparent in all of your activities as necessary, and you agree to be tracked like a teenager with the car keys for the first time if she wishes. And you do all of these things without resentment. Whatever is asked of you, you do, and with a smile on your face, or at least no complaining. Things do not go back to normal until she decides that they do, or you mutually agree that they never can.

Not only that, but you take the time to introspect about why you did what you did, and erect appropriate practices and boundaries to not only ensure that you don't do it again, but to ensure that as far as possible you don't even desire to do it again. Mental pain should become a Pavlovian response to the very mention of infidelity in a marriage.


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## I shouldnthave (Apr 11, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> As long as I am lamenting my vileness, the focus is still on ME. I think self-loathing actually PREVENTS true remorse.
> 
> True remorse is, in over-simplified terms - caring for your injured spouse in whatever way THEY need.


This is spot on, and something I had to grappled with through my reconciliation.

I guess like all big life events I went through stages. 

One was where I started to really hate myself for the pain I had caused. I am traditionally not one to self depreciate but I was calling myself every name in the book. And honestly, those histerics were over MY loss of what I believed myself to be.

My husband didn't want me to hate myself, that hurt him and me - not constructive at all. And as I mentioned earlier, I had one time been in the shoes he was now standing in. And I understood. Just like how I loved him, and didn't want him to hate himself, he loves me and felt the same way.

And if you want to get mentally healthy, if you want a strong marriage, if you don't want to cheat any more.... Self hate is not the path to get you there.

Loathing, hate, negative emotions are never going to be the oath forward.

Difficult introspection? Yes, peeling back the layers and revealing your vulnerability, absolutely. Taking the easy way out with self loathing? Not going to get you anywhere.


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## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

I shouldnthave said:


> This is spot on, and something I had to grappled with through my reconciliation.
> 
> I guess like all big life events I went through stages.
> 
> ...


Yes, among the many layers of the onion that is being peeled apart by my ex, when I say he often had a victim mentality during the dark time he was gone, it only appears now and then, but it appears nonetheless. It is "oh, I suck so bad, surely you want to tell me I told you so," or he tells me his mother says he's either stupid or a fool (something she's probably been dying to say much of his life - she's part of his problem, but he would never admit it; he treated her with profound deference). But the thing that really triggers me, even though it is valid from his perspective, is that the OW/STBXW cheated on him. I was just stunned that he could go on and on about how her betrayal without wondering if I might be feeling a trigger. When I asked him once who she cheated with, he said, who DIDN'T she cheat on me with? And he said he turned off the cable when he left; she was texting and calling and wanted it back on and he said, call the cable company. And he told me she'd probably shag the cable technician. 

I get that there has to be a period of rage and grief and tears and snot and the whole nine yards for real healing and growth and the ability to move on. 

But I'm not interested in remorse for the purpose of feeling sorry for oneself. And I'm not saying that his remorse is entirely self-centered. It should come as no surprise to me that he has to work through primarily his sense of betrayal and hurt before he can take on much of anything else, and he has come a long way; it has only been six weeks that he made up his mind she was cheating, while he was having surgery, and when he was well enough a couple of weeks later, he left. 

And that's just one more reason why I'm glad to have repaired the friendship, but there are going to be lingering traits, the kind of traits that led him to cheat in the first place, that may still remain. And I realize it is easy to confuse self-preservation, appropriate self-interest, self-care, and self-protection, and selfishness. It's just that after building a quiet life after all the chaos of his betrayal, I don't want to spend my energy figuring out which mode he's in when.


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## I shouldnthave (Apr 11, 2018)

Cletus said:


> Some here seem to think that remorse is rending sack cloth and wearing ashes.
> 
> It's not. You don't have to come here and ululate in the forum over your own miserable carcass. You don't have to convince anyone here that you are remorseful - only your spouse.
> 
> ...



Yes yes and yes. Honestly I do so much (now years later), I check in several times a day with where I am at and what I am doing. I don't go out with certain people, or stay late at work. I try to avoid any triggers like the plague. I make sure he has all my passwords, and that my location services are always turned on, and on any given whim he can look and see where I have been.

He didn't ask for any of this. But I want to try to alleviate as much anxiety as I can. So I try to be proactive, settle any twinges of uncertainty before he gets them, and if he does get them - do everything in my power to reassure him, and apologize that I have caused him to feel this way in the first place.

Honestly it really upsets me when he gets triggered. Not because he didn't trust me, but because he had to relive the pain - ah that kills me!!! It kills me that I have hurt him.

But he hates seeing me cry - so, I try to hide that from him. I apologise, I tell him how very very sorry I am that he feels the things that he does, and it's all my fault that he does, and I shed a tear in privacy (I don't need to burden him or guilt him with my emotions regarding this).

He needs to be able to tell me when he is triggered and lean on me for support. I can't let him feel hesitant to tell me, it's my time to be rock for him.

I see way too many stories from BSs who claim their WW wants full trust years later, or that they avoid mentioning triggers because it angers the BS. Well that is a total different kind of BS! The kind they find in a stick yard!

If a BS gives the gift of reconciliation, the WS has to understand that has to be earned, and continually fostered.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

TeddieG said:


> But the thing that really triggers me, even though it is valid from his perspective, is that the OW/STBXW cheated on him. I was just stunned that he could go on and on about how her betrayal without wondering if I might be feeling a trigger.


The reason he is telling you this (as you might be asking yourself this) is probably because he feels you are more likely to empathise with him as the victim in his situation, if he tells you about his current struggles. In his mind, he thinks that he can 'transmit' to you that he _understands_ what you must have been through with him by showing you his defeat with the current relationship.

Yet your instincts are probably right; that he actually really is unable to understand (a bit like a sociopath) that it is in fact completely inappropriate to even bring this up with you, in view of the fact of what he did to you. I think you have to be careful. He sounds like a 'user' (not drugs I mean). He 'used' you when he was your spouse, now that he knows he can't be your spouse anymore, he is trying to 'use' you by wanting/pretending to need your friendship. He may in fact really need your friendship but what will *you* be getting out of it, except getting triggered now and again?

I have some friends who were in your situation; they (consciously or subconsciously) always maintained a soft spot for their partner, even though they were abused over many years by them (unrequited love or infidelity). The never really were able to move on because their ex partner never let them (by giving them hope that they have changed or will change). Only you can judge whether he has but in almost all the cases I have known about, this change never happened and the was almost always 'relapse' at some point. And it's always the abused who suffered in the end.

It's a bit like the Stockholm Syndrome; you have to be really careful.


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## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

inmyprime said:


> The reason he is telling you this (as you might be asking yourself this) is probably because he feels you are more likely to empathise with him as the victim in his situation, if he tells you about his current struggles. In his mind, he thinks that he can 'transmit' to you that he _understands_ what you must have been through with him by showing you his defeat with the current relationship.
> 
> Yet your instincts are probably right; that he actually really is unable to understand (a bit like a sociopath) that it is in fact completely inappropriate to even bring this up with you, in view of the fact of what he did to you. I think you have to be careful. . . . He may in fact really need your friendship but what will *you* be getting out of it, except getting triggered now and again?
> 
> ...


Thanks, @inmyprime. I think you're right about the dynamic in the first paragraph, and I've seen people such as you described, who still have that soft spot. But I've been taking some risks and practicing being more assertive, since I've already lost him once. I did shut him down yesterday and said that he was enjoying far too much ("pinging" is what I told him - you are "pinging") the pain the OW felt, and he was in a manic phase, I'm sure (he's bi polar). So I've risked shutting down things he's likely to be inclined to talk to me about. Part of the reason, though, I want to be careful is precisely what you describe. I hear in some of what he is telling me that he is saying in a round-about way, you know how this feels because I did this to you, and he's grieving that too, sometimes. But will I ever get a real honest "I am so sorry I did what I did and hurt you so badly"? Probably not. About six weeks after telling me their relationship went physical, he called me and blubbered into the phone that I didn't deserve what he did to me. That's probably all I'm going to get in a straightforward way. 

What do I get out of the friendship right now? My questions answered. And I get to resume contact with most of his family, whom I've missed and would enjoy having contact with again. I miss one of his sisters and one of his nieces. 

Yet I see your point precisely. As I mentioned earlier, ex was and is somewhat disordered, and NOW he is finally admitting it. I don't know if you'd call it revenge or affirmation or confirmation that I as the loving partner was right, that there were things he could have consulted a doctor about to rule in or rule out. He was finally diagnosed with circulation and blood pressure issues, which I told him I suspected, had a heart attack and surgery,and he's admitting he is demonstrating symptoms, mildly so but still, of dementia. I saw all that coming and asked him to deal with it, but he didn't until he was gone. He left me to escape his physical limitations but they went with him. I guess for me, after 20 years with him, I enjoy hearing about the steps he took to at least address and deal with his health. None of those things will ever go away, the dementia will only worsen most likely, but I don't wish him ill. Fortunately he has a daughter in law who is a nurse, and so is his mother.

But you mentioned having a soft spot for the cheating partner. I have a soft spot for the guy he was, who I hope is still in there, and while I am sure we will never reconcile, for the sake of the guy he was, who may still be in there, and who may triumph over this situation and come out stronger, I try to be kind and gentle, but not a doormat. Now that he's getting the health care he needs, he's not the monster anymore, not all the time anyway.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

TeddieG said:


> Thanks, @inmyprime. I think you're right about the dynamic in the first paragraph. I did shut him down yesterday and said that he was enjoying far too much ("pinging" is what I told him - you are "pinging") the pain the OW felt, and he was in a manic phase, I'm sure (he's bi polar). So I've risked shutting down things he's likely to be inclined to talk to me about.
> 
> What do I get out of the friendship right now? My questions answered. And I get to resume contact with most of his family, whom I've missed and would enjoy having contact with again. I miss one of his sisters and one of his nieces.
> 
> Yet I see your point precisely. As I mentioned earlier, ex was and is somewhat disordered, and NOW he is finally admitting it. I don't know if you'd call it revenge or affirmation or confirmation that I as the loving partner was right, that there were things he could have consulted a doctor about to rule in or rule out. He was finally diagnosed with circulation and blood pressure issues, which I told him I suspected, had a heart attack and surgery,and he's admitting he is demonstrating symptoms, mildly so but still, of dementia. I saw all that coming and asked him to deal with it, but he didn't until he was gone. He left me to escape his physical limitations but they went with him. I guess for me, after 20 years with him, I enjoy hearing about the steps he took to at least address and deal with his health. None of those things will ever go away, the dementia will only worsen most likely, but I don't wish him ill. Fortunately he has a daughter in law who is a nurse, and so is his mother.


Yes, as long as you are aware of it and know what you are doing, I thought I better point it out (doesn't mean it is true). just seen it happen too many times with good friends etc.
the answers are looking for...you may never find them. At least not the kinds you seek or will be able to accept: some people are wired so differently. It's not a reflection on you (what he did). All this talk about 'context' etc is useful as far as it goes, but I always emphasized that ongoing affairs and repeat cheating then does tend to point to some sort of more rooted personality disorder (one off cheating is more likely to just be a thoughtless mistake). And you have to prioritise how to protect yourself, over understanding _why _he behaves, the way he does. Like with a mental patient. I know it's hard to try and see someone in a new light, after coming to this realisation. You will always try to look for some signs of humanity in there (like remorse etc). And maybe they are there (in his own way), but it doesn't mean you are not at risk at being hurt again.


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## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

inmyprime said:


> Yes, as long as you are aware of it and know what you are doing, I thought I better point it out (doesn't mean it is true). just seen it happen too many times with good friends etc.
> the answers are looking for...you may never find them. At least not the kinds you seek or will be able to accept: some people are wired so differently. It's not a reflection on you (what he did). All this talk about 'context' etc is useful as far as it goes, but I always emphasized that ongoing affairs and repeat cheating then does tend to point to some sort of more rooted personality disorder (one off cheating is more likely to just be a thoughtless mistake). And you have to prioritise how to protect yourself, over understanding _why _he behaves, the way he does. Like with a mental patient. I know it's hard to try and see someone in a new light, after coming to this realisation. You will always try to look for some signs of humanity in there (like remorse etc). And maybe they are there (in his own way), but it doesn't mean you are not at risk at being hurt again.


Spot on, friend, and the caution is appreciated. One reason I think he got so hip deep in the affair was because there were few real male friends (mostly at work) and no father figure around to put his arm around ex's shoulders and suggest he think about what he was doing. I hear everything you're saying, and you obviously heard me (which I appreciate) because yes, I am still looking for sign of humanity in there. But it did hurt, brought back memories and emotions, when he took such delight in her pain. He said she brought it on herself by cheating on him, which she did, but also at the back of my mind is, do you not realize how many bullets you dodged based upon what you brought on us and yourself? I kind of lost a bit of sympathy for him at that moment, and perhaps that will be what happens . . . the calculus of small but significant memories or hurts or cuts or digs will lead to a parting of the ways, with some, but certainly not all, questions answered, and at least cordiality restored.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Perhaps. It really wouldn't be that difficult to clarify.


Why don't you tell us your life story. It shouldn't be that difficult.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Yes, as long as you are aware of it and know what you are doing, I thought I better point it out (doesn't mean it is true). just seen it happen too many times with good friends etc.
> the answers are looking for...you may never find them. At least not the kinds you seek or will be able to accept: some people are wired so differently. It's not a reflection on you (what he did). All this talk about 'context' etc is useful as far as it goes, but I always emphasized that ongoing affairs and repeat cheating then does tend to point to some sort of more rooted personality disorder (one off cheating is more likely to just be a thoughtless mistake). And you have to prioritise how to protect yourself, over understanding _why _he behaves, the way he does. Like with a mental patient. I know it's hard to try and see someone in a new light, after coming to this realisation. You will always try to look for some signs of humanity in there (like remorse etc). And maybe they are there (in his own way), but it doesn't mean you are not at risk at being hurt again.


I think your points about BSs that can’t seem to escape their WSs’ grasp are very insightful and important.

I too have seen this dynamic too often unfortunately......and not just with infidelity, but also a lot of other abusive behaviors.

And IMO, in every case I have seen it, the WS is a ‘user’, plain and simple, who is some sick fashion views the BS as a piece of property they own and that they are never willing to give up.

It is a disgusting situation to see.....and I have great empathy for those BS who never seem strong enough to resist the pull...though, if I am honest, there is also a level of frustration with the fact that they are often being advised by friends and family to stay the h*ll away from the leech WS but can’t seem to follow the advise.

Seeing things like this is what has led me to always say (and live) the following:

An ex is an ex for a reason.....never go back.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

My W seems to get it only during flashbulb moments, she will be on the verge of crying and confessing. Sorta like when a betrayed spouse is triggered by a reminder.

She recovers and often makes an awkward statement to exonerate herself the next day or something. The last one being " that reading the bible convicts you of your sins, but you don't need to confess to the ones you've wronged" sounds like the easy way out.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

TAMAT said:


> The last one being " that reading the bible convicts you of your sins, but you don't need to confess to the ones you've wronged" sounds like the easy way out.


She is correct that the bible makes no "blanket" statement that we are to confess to those we have wronged. The general theme is that all sin is ultimately against God. And, I agree, that in some cases which arise in adulterous circumstances, "confession" can be harmful to the wronged person. Extreme care needs to be taken to provide only the information which is asked for by the betrayed spouse. This information should be, of course, truthful.

The fact of the adultery is sufficient for the BS to know. Some of the details will only serve to damage the marriage further and bring pain upon the BS. But avoiding confession of the fact of his/her adultery is, indeed, the easy way out.

I think avoidance of hurtful details is a "get it". "Spilling the beans" is definitely the easy way out. It is a horrendously selfish act, almost as egregious as the adultery itself. It gets "relief" for the WS at the expense of the BS.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

TJW,

You wrote, *Extreme care needs to be taken to provide only the information which is asked for by the betrayed spouse. This information should be, of course, truthful.

The fact of the adultery is sufficient for the BS to know. Some of the details will only serve to damage the marriage further and bring pain upon the BS. But avoiding confession of the fact of his/her adultery is, indeed, the easy way out.

I think avoidance of hurtful details is a "get it". "Spilling the beans" is definitely the easy way out. It is a horrendously selfish act, almost as egregious as the adultery itself. It gets "relief" for the WS at the expense of the BS. *

Are you saying it is ok for a cheater to only admit to a lesser crime to avoid a divorce? 

Often, for myself at least, it is the sexual details which matter most and there is a threshold which each person has beyond which the marriage cannot be saved. If my W had 5 orgasms with OM1 per session but only ever one with me it's rather damming and needs to be brought to light. The details might be painful but are better than more wasted years.

Tamat


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

TAMAT said:


> Are you saying it is ok for a cheater to only admit to a lesser crime to avoid a divorce?


No, it's not ok, in my mind, for the cheater to have a motive of self-protection in the confession.



TAMAT said:


> Often, for myself at least, it is the sexual details which matter most and there is a threshold which each person has beyond which the marriage cannot be saved.


Then, you, as the BS, have a right to ask about those details, and a right to receive a truthful answer. If the answer is a "deal-breaker", then you have the right to end the marriage based upon the adultery.

What I'm saying is that the WS should not "volunteer" any information like this. It will serve only to hurt the BS further. If the WS feels that he/she cannot be satisfied sexually following an affair in which sex was better.... then the honorable thing to do is to give the BS a "walk".... no alimony, no spousal support, only equitable distribution of assets based upon contribution while in the marriage. Assets brought into the marriage by one partner remain the sole asset of that partner following the marriage.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

TJW said:


> If the WS feels that he/she cannot be satisfied sexually following an affair in which sex was better.... then the honorable thing to do is to give the BS a "walk".... no alimony, no spousal support, only equitable distribution of assets based upon contribution while in the marriage. Assets brought into the marriage by one partner remain the sole asset of that partner following the marriage.


do you honestly think most cheaters wont leave the marriage with every last penny they can take with them? They have already proven they can be selfish so why would that stop with their divorce settlement?


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

I shouldnthave said:


> Yes yes and yes. Honestly I do so much (now years later), I check in several times a day with where I am at and what I am doing. I don't go out with certain people, or stay late at work. I try to avoid any triggers like the plague. I make sure he has all my passwords, and that my location services are always turned on, and on any given whim he can look and see where I have been.
> 
> He didn't ask for any of this. But I want to try to alleviate as much anxiety as I can. So I try to be proactive, settle any twinges of uncertainty before he gets them, and if he does get them - do everything in my power to reassure him, and apologize that I have caused him to feel this way in the first place.
> 
> ...


Didn't your husband cheat first?


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

I'd like to throw out a question for the BS who have posted in this thread. Do your WS mourn what they lost after their A?


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> do you honestly think most cheaters wont leave the marriage with every last penny they can take with them? They have already proven they can be selfish so why would that stop with their divorce settlement?


No. I don't think they would. That's why I was saying that they have a choice. Just like they had when they cheated. They could choose to turn away from their wickedness, and be honorable.

But, I have to agree, most likely, they will continue their selfishness.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

TJW said:


> No. I don't think they would. That's why I was saying that they have a choice. Just like they had when they cheated. They could choose to turn away from their wickedness, and be honorable.
> 
> But, I have to agree, most likely, they will continue their selfishness.


I know of a case - a close friend of mine - his WW not only took alimony but waited until it was complete before she married her new H (who it is suspected was her second AP).


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## I shouldnthave (Apr 11, 2018)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Didn't your husband cheat first?


He did, but I doubled down.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

I shouldnthave said:


> He did, but I doubled down.


So in your case you BOTH know what its like to be the BS and WS.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I'd like to throw out a question for the BS who have posted in this thread. Do your WS mourn what they lost after their A?


Well, we ended in D, but...
Short answer: No.
Long Answer: Not at all.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I'd like to throw out a question for the BS who have posted in this thread. Do your WS mourn what they lost after their A?


If you mean did the WS mourn the loss of the affair rather than the loss caused by damage to the marriage, then yes. This was very difficult for me to handle, made much more so when the AP died and the mourning ratcheted up a notch. At that point she was still giving me the line (and maybe deluding herself) that the A was just a friendship, so she didn't try to hide her mourning.


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## I shouldnthave (Apr 11, 2018)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I'd like to throw out a question for the BS who have posted in this thread. Do your WS mourn what they lost after their A?


I will answer, as you pointed out, I have been on both sides of the coin.

If you mean mourning the relationship we had before he cheated? *I* was the BS, and I didn't mourn what we once had. I don't know, maybe I just do not operate like that. Seldomly do I look in the rear view mirror - its always forward / plan of action for me. I do not recall "mourning what I lost" nor do I recall him doing the same. 

And when I cheated.... I wouldn't say I mourned what was lost. I am practical, it (our relationship) was never some magical and innocent thing for me, nor do I think it was for him. 

Neither of us dwelled in what was, or what could have beens... but what we have now, and what to fix and strengthen so we can move forward.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I shouldnthave said:


> I will answer, as you pointed out, I have been on both sides of the coin.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If I recall correctly you guys do swinging? To some people, it may not seem too different from being unfaithful. (It’s technically also having sex with somebody else, except with permission).
I wonder if the impact of cheating is the same in people who swing versus who only (supposed to) share their body with one person.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> I wonder if the impact of cheating is the same in people who swing versus who only (supposed to) share their body with one person.


You said "impact".

In my experience, the IMPACT of swinging {and the inevitable cheating that follows} is typically much more devastating to the relationship, the famiy and the community. 

It's pretty simple math. Two entitled selfish waywards lost in sin equals twice the consequences.

Saving and restoring a marital relationship is hard enough with one wayward spouse. Double it and it's unlikely.

Besides, it's very difficult for the non-cheating spouse in a non-normative marriage type relationship to say adultery is ok, except when it isn't. 

The best way to save these individuals is to expose them to friends, neighbors and employers before it's too late. Marriage is a community undertaking. While I can be tolerant of non-normative relationships and loving towards them while offering them a path out of such misery, if they choose to continue I will not keep such offensive lifestyle a secret. Then, once confronted with their sins and the more obvious consequences of those sins, maybe one or both of them will finally hit rock bottom, repent and turn from such sin and, eventually...."get it".


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Quality said:


> You said "impact".
> 
> In my experience, the IMPACT of swinging {and the inevitable cheating that follows} is typically much more devastating to the relationship, the famiy and the community.
> 
> It's pretty simple math. Two entitled selfish waywards lost in sin equals twice the consequences.


Well, that's going to go down well....(not!)



Quality said:


> Saving and restoring a marital relationship is hard enough with one wayward spouse. Double it and it's unlikely.
> 
> Besides, it's very difficult for the non-cheating spouse in a non-normative marriage type relationship to say adultery is ok, except when it isn't.
> 
> The best way to save these individuals is to expose them to friends, neighbors and employers before it's too late. Marriage is a community undertaking. While I can be tolerant of non-normative relationships and loving towards them while offering them a path out of such misery, if they choose to continue I will not keep such offensive lifestyle a secret. Then, once confronted with their sins and the more obvious consequences of those sins, maybe one or both of them will finally hit rock bottom, repent and turn from such sin and, eventually...."get it".


If marriage is a community undertaking, doesn't it make more sense to **** the whole community?


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## I shouldnthave (Apr 11, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> If I recall correctly you guys do swinging? To some people, it may not seem too different from being unfaithful. (It’s technically also having sex with somebody else, except with permission).
> I wonder if the impact of cheating is the same in people who swing versus who only (supposed to) share their body with one person.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We considered swinging for a bit, never followed through. 

Decided we had more fun just sharing vids etc and being exhibitionist.

And all of that came about years after any cheating. 

Basically through reconciliation and really talking about our respective sexualities did we consider other experimentation. 

But the more we talked, the more we shared, the less interesting anyone else became.

I think our respective views towards sex made reconciliation easier than it is for some other couples.


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## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

Dyokemm said:


> I think your points about BSs that can’t seem to escape their WSs’ grasp are very insightful and important.
> 
> I too have seen this dynamic too often unfortunately......and not just with infidelity, but also a lot of other abusive behaviors.
> 
> ...


I have seen that dynamic as well; there are people I know, I might even call them friends, but not close ones, who just can't get over the betrayal and the ensuing divorce. I too have empathy for them, including one who is still waiting to hear from her ex, for at least an apology or an explanation, or some sign of remorse. What she isn't aware of is that she could very well be disgusted by him after that happens, if it were to happen. 

I am grateful for the closure I got with my ex, but we no longer communicate other than the occasional text, because he is still so wrapped up in himself, and because there's no going back. Admittedly, now that he's left the OW and has filed for divorce and filed a restraining order, he has to find somewhere to live and start rebuilding his life; I'm glad he is rebuilding and I wish him well in it. But while I was happy to hear his remorse and sorrow, that is NOT a segue back into a committed relationship. But I am amazed at the number of people who think it is or might be. I don't hate my ex but I find him hard to talk to. He is much like my stepfather was at the end - grouchy, short-tempered, impatient - and when he acts as if he's told me something, and I say, wait, what, when did THAT happen? he'll grouse and say, "I told you that." I don't argue. It isn't worth it. He may settle down at some point and be less prickly, but as a wise and experienced friend told me, IF the day ever came that my ex had the epiphany that he gave up more than the OW was worth, I would probably have moved on. She was right. Some people, though, just need the experience of the failure of the after-glow of the "I'm sorry."


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## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I'd like to throw out a question for the BS who have posted in this thread. Do your WS mourn what they lost after their A?


Oh definitely. Mine did. See my earlier post quoting Dyokemm. And I saw a letter that the ex wrote. He has a dear friend (an older man) who was a friend of both him and the AF/OW/STBXW. Ex was upset, after he left her, that this guy was going to go over and see the OW, to see how she was doing. They apparently had a phone conversation, where the friend was asking ex if he was jealous. In the letter ex intended to email to his friend, he said no. He said you are a good friend and I love you very much, and I don't want her to hurt you the way she hurt me. Ex said, "she has cost me everything I ever loved." So ex mourned the betrayal, probably still is, but he is also realizing and mourning what he lost by engaging in the affair. As Ishouldnthave said, ours wasn't a perfect relationship, and ex is definitely a romantic; but sadly, he doesn't understand commitment and staying the course. But he definitely expressed his disgust that he gambled everything he had on the OW only to be sorely hurt, used, and disappointed, and now realizes what he lost. 

Now, I'm sure there are many who would debate that proposition and assert that ex himself cost himself everything he ever loved. But there it is. At that point in the realization that OW/STBXW was a cheater and a ***** (really? ya think?) who cheated on him the entirety of their relationship, but was only more blatant about it at the end when she was ready to be rid of ex, he was extremely hurt and of course projecting. But yeah, he is mourning. A lot.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> Wow, so it's not just women you don't like....impressive....or something


Funny how the religious folks think that sex or sexual sin between a couple should be a community business. Well, you have to have someone to judge/ridicule I guess.


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## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

It isn't exactly swinging, but something came to light for my ex from his OW's baby daddy. I wondered why the father of her child (who was 3 when she and ex hooked up, as she was needing a source for the house payment, and wanted to be a stay-at-home mom) spent three years resisting child support and requiring a court hearing about paternity. I don't know what the hearing was about because apparently no DNA was taken or checked. But since ex has left the OW/STBXW, he's been worried about her 12-year-old son. She had that baby right about the time the two oldest turned 18 and the child support spigot was about to be shut off (and it was making her house payment). The baby daddy had the good sense not to marry her. So it comes out, from the baby daddy, to ex, as ex is leaving, that OW continued to see her first husband, who had cheated on her. He had remarried, divorced, and married again . . . still seeing OW on the side. The baby daddy says that "his" child looks just like her older son and his father, the first husband. So ex says, you mean he was still seeing her after cheating on her, but after marrying someone else? Baby daddy says, no, it is more interesting than that. OW/STBXW was in a threesome with her ex/first husband/father of the first two kids and his new wife. So baby daddy thinks he's NOT the baby daddy, which is why he had so little to do with the young man. So ex tells the baby daddy, why the hell didn't you get a DNA test rather than treating the kid like a leper? 

That's what's chapping me. The kid is the victim in all this; he has a guy he thinks is his dad who thinks he isn't, rarely gets the kid, rarely has him over, and has fought twice to reduce child support, and a mother who has several boyfriends going at a time and still sleeps with her cheating ex husband (and his wife). Ex told me he had hints that the OW/STBXW might be bi. But sleeping with her ex and his new wife? Geez. I asked ex point-blank, you had all these signs, you knew when you'd leave her that she wasn't whiling away her time taking care of her kid but sleeping with anything that walks, and you still married her? WHY??? And he swears he doesn't know why. 

Ugh.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Funny how the religious folks think that sex or sexual sin between a couple should be a community business. Well, you have to have someone to judge/ridicule I guess.


If it's not shameful, why does it need to be kept a secret?

Didn't you visit a prostitute within a week of your discovery day??? Wouldn't that make you an adulterer too?? I imagine prostitution is illegal in your state so it's not just the religious folks that think sex is a community concern. Had you been caught, booked and had your mugshot published, you might have a different attitude today about your ex-wife, hers and your sexual immorality. You definitely wouldn't be here talking about your ex-wife, and waywards, in general, as the sole character problems of the world. Exposure tends to have a cleansing experience where we realize we all may not get what we want in life, but so very often, we get what we deserve.

Besides, being able to judge right from wrong, and KNOW how to help people lost in sin is a gift. I expose because I love my friends and neighbors and I know very few care about them enough to help them. They may not see it as helpful at first but they usually thank me/us later.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Funny how the religious folks think that sex or sexual sin between a couple should be a community business. Well, you have to have someone to judge/ridicule I guess.


"Religious folk" is one of my favorite stupid phrases. Hey, I believe in Jesus and my hubby and I swing from chandeliers. Have you READ Song of Solomon lol

Not to shake your sad little paradigm or anything....


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Quality said:


> If it's not shameful, why does it need to be kept a secret?
> 
> Didn't you visit a prostitute within a week of your discovery day??? Wouldn't that make you an adulterer too?? I imagine prostitution is illegal in your state so it's not just the religious folks that think sex is a community concern. Had you been caught, booked and had your mugshot published, you might have a different attitude today about your ex-wife, hers and your sexual immorality. You definitely wouldn't be here talking about your ex-wife, and waywards, in general, as the sole character problems of the world. Exposure tends to have a cleansing experience where we realize we all may not get what we want in life, but so very often, we get what we deserve.
> 
> Besides, being able to judge right from wrong, and KNOW how to help people lost in sin is a gift. I expose because I love my friends and neighbors and I know very few care about them enough to help them. They may not see it as helpful at first but they usually thank me/us later.


I understand exposing to the OBS, afterall they are an interested partner. Why is it your job to expose others without their permission? And what do you judge is ripe for exposure? Just cheaters? Gays committing sodomy in the privacy of their home? What happens in other peoples bedroom is none of your business, unless they make it your business by coming to you for guidance. Even then discretion is deserved. Not everyone want to be known as a **** down the street.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> "Religious folk" is one of my favorite stupid phrases. Hey, I believe in Jesus and my hubby and I swing from chandeliers. Have you READ Song of Solomon lol
> 
> Not to shake your sad little paradigm or anything....


What is that suppose to mean? You and your husband keep concubines? LOL

Maybe you should actually read the New Testament instead of just proclaiming to be a follower.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> What is that suppose to mean? You and your husband keep concubines? LOL
> 
> Maybe you should actually read the New Testament instead of just proclaiming to be a follower.


Song of Solomon is a love story/letter between two people.

And it's in the OLD Testament


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I understand exposing to the OBS, afterall they are an interested partner. Why is it your job to expose others without their permission? And what do you judge is ripe for exposure? Just cheaters? Gays committing sodomy in the privacy of their home? What happens in other peoples bedroom is none of your business, unless they make it your business by coming to you for guidance. Even then discretion is deserved. Not everyone want to be known as a **** down the street.


Staying within the context of this thread...I expose waywards, otherwise, how else are they going to "get it".

If you aren't prepared and able to keep your shameful non-normative sexual sins a secret, why must I? 

"Discretion" is only involved when affording someone the chance to come clean themselves. 

We are not gossips. Just trying to be helpful and loving before the consequences become insurmountable and even more and more people get hurt.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Quality said:


> Staying within the context of this thread...I expose waywards, otherwise, how else are they going to "get it".
> 
> If you aren't prepared and able to keep your shameful non-normative sexual sins a secret, why must I?
> 
> ...


Interesting. I wonder about the legality and ethics of exposing strangers.

I wonder what a member of a state bar association might think.....or, if they were the ones doing the exposing, how they might be perceived outside a very specific...."group."

That said, if I found out my sibling's spouse was cheating (or my sibling for that matter), you better believe I'd be blowing the whistle.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Quality said:


> Staying within the context of this thread...I expose waywards, otherwise, how else are they going to "get it".
> 
> If you aren't prepared and able to keep your shameful non-normative sexual sins a secret, why must I?
> 
> ...


If you want to expose a wayward to his spouse, go ahead. Then his/her spouse can dole out the consequences (or lack thereof) as they see fit. Why does it involve you or whoever "we" are suppose to be? 

My point is once the BS knows, why can't it stop there? Why must the whole town know? I would knock your teeth out if you started telling the town my ex-wife is a cheat. You know why, because we have a kid that doesn't need to know that kind of crap and its none of your business and not your place.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> If you want to expose a wayward to his spouse, go ahead. Then his/her spouse can dole out the consequences (or lack thereof) as they see fit. Why does it involve you or whoever "we" are suppose to be?
> 
> My point is once the BS knows, why can't it stop there? Why must the whole town know? I would knock your teeth out if you started telling the town my ex-wife is a cheat. You know why, because we have a kid that doesn't need to know that kind of crap and its none of your business and not your place.


You'd be amazed at what you can read on other relationship sites. Earth-scorching exposure by strangers is recommended by some...enthusiasts


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> You'd be amazed at what you can read on other relationship sites. Earth-scorching exposure by strangers is recommended by some...enthusiasts


Earth scorching should come from the BS, not some rando with a axe to grind for his own personal vindictiveness masked as some righteous redeemer. Let the police police crimes and God judge sin. There are kids and marriage in balance and they deserve discretion after something traumatic like that. If the BS want to expose to the world, that's THEIR choice.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Earth scorching should come from the BS, not some rando with a axe to grind for his own personal vindictiveness masked as some righteous redeemer. Let the police police crimes and God judge sin. There are kids and marriage in balance and they deserve discretion after something traumatic like that. If the BS want to expose to the world, thats there choice.



Yes, but see...YOU are sane lol


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> Yes, but see...YOU are sane lol


LOL, except a misogynist. Actually, I'm just a misanthrope...I have trust issues lol.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> LOL, except a misogynist. Actually, I'm just a misanthrope...I have trust issues lol.


Nah, I don't think you're a misogynist. 

I think a lot of us fight misanthopy from time to time. This time a few years ago I was in the throes of it myself.

Regarding WS....I think waywardness is like addiction. If they ever "get it," it will be because they decided to/wanted to. Just like you cannot threaten or guilt or force-rehab an addict into recovery, you can't do it with a WS either.


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## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

personofinterest said:


> Nah, I don't think you're a misogynist.
> 
> I think a lot of us fight misanthopy from time to time. This time a few years ago I was in the throes of it myself.
> 
> Regarding WS....I think waywardness is like addiction. If they ever "get it," it will be because they decided to/wanted to. Just like you cannot threaten or guilt or force-rehab an addict into recovery, you can't do it with a WS either.


Agreed!


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> If you want to expose a wayward to his spouse, go ahead. Then his/her spouse can dole out the consequences (or lack thereof) as they see fit. Why does it involve you or whoever "we" are suppose to be?
> 
> My point is once the BS knows, why can't it stop there? Why must the whole town know? I would knock your teeth out if you started telling the town my ex-wife is a cheat. You know why, because we have a kid that doesn't need to know that kind of crap and its none of your business and not your place.


Nice red herring. 

I said we {my wife and I} aren't gossips so to blow up my statement into suddenly the whole town knows and you're going to knock my teeth out, is bit much. 

We aren't running around telling children anything.

But your children SHOULD know about their mother --- from you, not me. 

Truth is the answer.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> You'd be amazed at what you can read on other relationship sites. Earth-scorching exposure by strangers is recommended by some...enthusiasts


It's what is promoted here too. Strangers, neighbors, friends and relatives SHOULD expose adultery to the betrayed spouse whenever and wherever they encounter it and THEN, kindly and lovingly, stongly encourage the betrayed spouse to expose their wayward spouse further, in order to get support, vanquish any false sense of betrayed spouse shame and {non-vindictively} bring the wayward spouse to repentance. If the wayward won't stop. Earth-scorching exposure is necessary as the best weapon to {non-vindictively} bring the wayward to repentance.

Waywards never like exposure. The former waywards that do....are the ones that "truly get it" {the subject of this thread}.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Quality said:


> It's what is promoted here too. Strangers, neighbors, friends and relatives SHOULD expose adultery to the betrayed spouse whenever and wherever they encounter it and THEN, kindly and lovingly, stongly encourage the betrayed spouse to expose themselves in order to get support, vanquish any false sense of betrayed spouse shame and {non-vindictively} bring the wayward spouse to repentance. If the wayward won't stop. Earth-scorching exposure is necessary as the best weapon to {non-vindictively} bring the wayward to repentance.
> 
> Waywards never like exposure. The former waywards that do....are the ones that "truly get it" {the subject of this thread}.


There is no such thing as NON-vindictive exposure of a stranger. Ever. I have encountered people of that ilk in unrelated topics. Which is why I have a very thick folder of my own.

If my spouse cheats, it is MY business to proclaim his horridness to the four winds if I so chose. If a stranger does it - they will find themselves on the bad end of a cease and desist and/or lawsuit. I wouldn't win, but I'd make their lives as hellish as mine.

That said, I wouldn't have to. Because if he ever did cheat, I'd be gone within the hour. And he'd do the same. It is one of the many things we discussed before marriage, along with pretty much every detail of both our pasts.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Earth scorching should come from the BS, not some rando with a axe to grind for his own personal vindictiveness masked as some righteous redeemer. Let the police police crimes and God judge sin. There are kids and marriage in balance and they deserve discretion after something traumatic like that. If the BS want to expose to the world, that's THEIR choice.


another red herring.

Having an unanticipated uncomfortable calm conversation with a wayward in their workplace about their sins is much different than you portray it above.

Though we HAVE participated in earth scorching exposures on behalf of and in collusion with betrayed spouses we don't take it upon ourselves.

Yes...there ARE marriages and families in the balance and the "discretion" you are advocating is actually enabling secrecy and further harm to such families. It's the sin that hurts families, not the truth and truth exterminates sin ---- in time.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Having a calm conversation with someone in an office in person regarding their destructive behavior is very much different than a complete stranger taking it upon themselves to do a deep dive dox of someone they have never met so that they can send out emails to other people they have never met initiating fall out they have no intention to be around to assist with. What you are suggesting is rational and beneficial. What I am describing is just plain psycho.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> There is no such thing as NON-vindictive exposure of a stranger. Ever. I have encountered people of that ilk in unrelated topics. Which is why I have a very thick folder of my own.


Well - wouldn't you make a terrible witness to a crime. You certainly wouldn't make a very good investigator, prosecutor, or even an auditor trying to root out and expose the evil-doings of others. Private investigators do this all the time ---- non-vindictively. 

The whole notion that sexual sins are entitled to privacy {discretion} AND that it's unloving {vindictive} to try to pull someone, especially someone might barely know, out of such despair {pit of sin} is fascinating to me.

I have to presume you were wayward in your previous marriage to offer up such a blanket statement.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Add definitely don't think someone who cheated on their spouse deserves a pass. In fat, the 1st thing I would recommend when a betrayed spouse bonds out their partner is cheating is to let the key people in their lives no. This is one of the best ways to kill the affair. And like I said, if my best friend or my best friend spouse was cheating, you better believe I would lovingly get involved. I've just seen 1st hand what happens when a stranger pokes their nose where it doesn't belong. And this is 1 place where a stranger's nose doesn't belong. You will not find 1 credible marriage or psychological expert that would actually advocate strangers going around exposing other strangers. You just won't find it.

My husband and I are very happily married, and we have both been utterly faithful to one another.

As for being a terrible witness or investigator, you are probably right. I am definitely not an attorney. If I were an attorney, I still wouldn't get involved in that kind of stuff because I wouldn't want anyone following a complaint.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Goodness gracious my last post makes almost no sense. Apparently I do not speak very clearly when I use the talking mode.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> Having a calm conversation with someone in an office in person regarding their destructive behavior is very much different than a complete stranger taking it upon themselves to do a deep dive dox of someone they have never met so that they can send out emails to other people they have never met initiating fall out they have no intention to be around to assist with. What you are suggesting is rational and beneficial. What I am describing is just plain psycho.



I/we have never done that but if we did, we'd be there to help. It's probably unlikely they'd want our help at first anyway. The wayward needs time to overcome the initial anger of exposure. I don't know but it might actually be helpful that they were upset and lashing out at a total caring stranger on the internet versus being upset with a friend, family member or spouse that exposed them. 

The fallacy of the above statement is that the "fallout" is worse than continued secrecy. I don't care much how exposure happens ----what's important is that it does happen.


A great example - a newly married couple we were working with through an infidelity crisis a couple years ago. Very young Christians. Did everything right. Virgins at marriage. Christian homes. Perfect targets for spiritual warfare. He and she got married, moved out of their parental homes into their marital home. Neither went away to college so, really, this was their first taste of personal freedom. He goes out with the guys and gets drunk for about the third time in his life. In the process, he ends up on the dance floor and some girl is hanging on him and kissing him. The whole "episode" takes less than 5 minutes before his friends pull him away. Some girl that knew who he was, knew he got married but really didn't know him {I think she was just some girl he knew from middle school} video'd him on her Iphone, found him and his wife on facebook and sent his wife the video with her apologies. She was their angel. She was not "psycho". This couple has been given the gift of learning from these mistakes and vices BEFORE they had bigger ones, or kids or real problems. Generally the advice is divorce but this couple wanted to recover and learn to do better. He was like 22 so there is no way to say he's forever a cheater and unredeemable. They were more than up to the challenge and this couple my wife and I are now using to help and teach other young couples the dangers of living in today's culture.


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## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

personofinterest said:


> You'd be amazed at what you can read on other relationship sites. Earth-scorching exposure by strangers is recommended by some...enthusiasts



:surprise:


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Quality said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > Having a calm conversation with someone in an office in person regarding their destructive behavior is very much different than a complete stranger taking it upon themselves to do a deep dive dox of someone they have never met so that they can send out emails to other people they have never met initiating fall out they have no intention to be around to assist with. What you are suggesting is rational and beneficial. What I am describing is just plain psycho.
> ...


 Any disagreement aside, I am thankful that there are couples out there like you and your wife who are willing to put in the real work to help other couples. Message boards can be great, but I think most couples reeling from Infidelity need boots on the ground help from a couple who has been there.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> Add definitely don't think someone who cheated on their spouse deserves a pass. In fat, the 1st thing I would recommend when a betrayed spouse bonds out their partner is cheating is to let the key people in their lives no. This is one of the best ways to kill the affair. And like I said, if my best friend or my best friend spouse was cheating, you better believe I would lovingly get involved. I've just seen 1st hand what happens when a stranger pokes their nose where it doesn't belong. And this is 1 place where a stranger's nose doesn't belong. You will not find 1 credible marriage or psychological expert that would actually advocate strangers going around exposing other strangers. You just won't find it.
> 
> My husband and I are very happily married, and we have both been utterly faithful to one another.
> 
> As for being a terrible witness or investigator, you are probably right. I am definitely not an attorney. If I were an attorney, I still wouldn't get involved in that kind of stuff because I wouldn't want anyone following a complaint.


Most marriage and psychological experts aren't Christian and tend to love delving into and keeping their customer's secrets to themselves and their bank accounts.

You and I are Christians and discern credibility using the bible. 

We are told to expose. 

"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them". Ephesians 5:11

It's challenging living up to God's word when the culture favors sin and secrecy.


Am I My Brother's Keeper? Gotquestions.org


On the other hand...a "righteous man" CAN exercise some discretion {though I doubt the "fallout" you were concerned with had anything near the ramifications that may have befallen Mary}

“Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly” Matthew 1:19.

Jewish law provided that Joseph's betrothed, because of her {seeming} unfaithfulness, could be placed before the elders for judgment and stoned to death. But he was thinking to just put her away quietly without public knowledge.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

I shouldnthave said:


> I will answer, as you pointed out, I have been on both sides of the coin.
> 
> If you mean mourning the relationship we had before he cheated? *I* was the BS, and I didn't mourn what we once had. I don't know, maybe I just do not operate like that. Seldomly do I look in the rear view mirror - its always forward / plan of action for me. I do not recall "mourning what I lost" nor do I recall him doing the same.
> 
> ...


Yours is a unique situation since by the time you cheated you marriage had already lost its innocence and trust. 



TeddieG said:


> I have seen that dynamic as well; there are people I know, I might even call them friends, but not close ones, who just can't get over the betrayal and the ensuing divorce. I too have empathy for them, including one who is still waiting to hear from her ex, for at least an apology or an explanation, or some sign of remorse. What she isn't aware of is that she could very well be disgusted by him after that happens, if it were to happen.
> 
> I am grateful for the closure I got with my ex, but we no longer communicate other than the occasional text, because he is still so wrapped up in himself, and because there's no going back. Admittedly, now that he's left the OW and has filed for divorce and filed a restraining order, he has to find somewhere to live and start rebuilding his life; I'm glad he is rebuilding and I wish him well in it. But while I was happy to hear his remorse and sorrow, that is NOT a segue back into a committed relationship. But I am amazed at the number of people who think it is or might be. I don't hate my ex but I find him hard to talk to. He is much like my stepfather was at the end - grouchy, short-tempered, impatient - and when he acts as if he's told me something, and I say, wait, what, when did THAT happen? he'll grouse and say, "I told you that." I don't argue. It isn't worth it. He may settle down at some point and be less prickly, but as a wise and experienced friend told me, IF the day ever came that my ex had the epiphany that he gave up more than the OW was worth, I would probably have moved on. She was right. Some people, though, just need the experience of the failure of the after-glow of the "I'm sorry."


If you dont mind me asking why do you still engage him? Is he mourning the loss of his marriage to you or the fact that his marriage to his AP didnt work out? I'm not sure your H fully gets if form your posts.


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## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Yours is a unique situation since by the time you cheated you marriage had already lost its innocence and trust.
> 
> 
> 
> If you dont mind me asking why do you still engage him? Is he mourning the loss of his marriage to you or the fact that his marriage to his AP didnt work out? I'm not sure your H fully gets if form your posts.


Oh, he is definitely mourning the loss of what we had. He feels like an idiot for being played by the OW/STBXW and I'm sure he's mourning his expectations from that relationship, which are complicated given his health issues. He's frustrated because she won't accept the service of the documents, keeps dodging and drawing out the process, and he's ready to have it over. I hear from him less because we've had lots of talks to bring each other up to date, after he left her and went to his home town. But now he has filed for divorce and is getting a place ready to live, which gives him some place to put his energies and focus and distracts him from his frustration.

It's not just him; it is a syndrome, I think, with some people after disappointment. My boss recently had surgery twice, once a year, and then a disappointment at work, and he's withdrawn and grouchy too. But with my ex, he needed all his friends to stay focused and he told me he considers one of his friends, one of his supportive friends. 

I'll explain it like this. I'm not sure where I saw it, whether it was here or somewhere else, like an advice column, but he missed my family and I missed his. As the person wrote in whatever I was reading said, the affair partner in that case was much younger. The person writing said, with my wife, my kids, we had a history; we knew the same people, had a family on both sides, and our life developed and grew together with these people as we added people (kids, marriages, etc.). The person felt completely disassociated from the life he'd had and didn't expect to miss and mourn what wasn't in the new relationship. 

It's not a reason to get back together, but I really missed h's family and he left me shortly after my mother died, and didn't know my stepfather had. I didn't know his stepfather, my FIL, had open heart surgery. One of my stepsons, h's middle child, had another baby. My niece got married two years ago and is pregnant, another has had a new baby. So we're just catching up and bringing each other up to date on events in the families. And he's not always grouchy and selfish; I've noticed that he's focused and determined to get into a new house and is focused and determined to divorce OW. He's working out his frustrations.

But we had 20 years together. People have a lot in common when they have mutual families and I get reports about his family. And I can comfortably contact them now and stay in touch myself; I wasn't sure how they felt about his decisions, his mother can be inconsistent, and so his recent decision to leave OW/STBXW has opened the door for me to connect to some of our shared history and the people in it, people I love and missed. They missed me too.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Quality said:


> another red herring.
> 
> Having an unanticipated uncomfortable calm conversation with a wayward in their workplace about their sins is much different than you portray it above.
> 
> ...


OK. So, what happens if you inform the BS and she doesn't care or already knows. What if you talk calmly with the WS and he tells you to go pound sand. What if you go back to the BS and tell her she needs to expose her cheater and she tells you to butt out of their marriage. Whats your next step?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

upside down, I don't think any rational person would keep pushing into someone else's marriage when the betrayed spouse made it clear they wanted them to stay out of it. I mean, I understand the idea of exposing mad deeds, but I really doubt a rational person would take it upon themselves to do things like that after the betrayed spouse had said but out. At least that would be my assumption.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> upside down, I don't think any rational person would keep pushing into someone else's marriage when the betrayed spouse made it clear they wanted them to stay out of it. I mean, I understand the idea of exposing mad deeds, but I really doubt a rational person would take it upon themselves to do things like that after the betrayed spouse had said but out. At least that would be my assumption.


I agree, but I'm just trying to determine where rational meets reality for Mr. Quality.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> upside down, I don't think any rational person would keep pushing into someone else's marriage when the betrayed spouse made it clear they wanted them to stay out of it. I mean, I understand the idea of exposing mad deeds, but I really doubt a rational person would take it upon themselves to do things like that after the betrayed spouse had said but out. At least that would be my assumption.


Agreed - not my business if its a stranger or a casual friend. Family and close friends are a different story. Crusaders tend to get themselves into trouble.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

TeddieG said:


> Oh, he is definitely mourning the loss of what we had. He feels like an idiot for being played by the OW/STBXW and I'm sure he's mourning his expectations from that relationship, which are complicated given his health issues. He's frustrated because she won't accept the service of the documents, keeps dodging and drawing out the process, and he's ready to have it over. I hear from him less because we've had lots of talks to bring each other up to date, after he left her and went to his home town. But now he has filed for divorce and is getting a place ready to live, which gives him some place to put his energies and focus and distracts him from his frustration.
> 
> It's not just him; it is a syndrome, I think, with some people after disappointment. My boss recently had surgery twice, once a year, and then a disappointment at work, and he's withdrawn and grouchy too. But with my ex, he needed all his friends to stay focused and he told me he considers one of his friends, one of his supportive friends.
> 
> ...


What have you been doing for yourself to heal?


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## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

@;


Truthseeker1 said:


> What have you been doing for yourself to heal?


I was pretty much over it by the time he contacted me, but I am busy settling in to a new house. After 13 years in the house we lived in and rented (and the rent going up), I decided I needed a newer nicer place. The old house was hot or cold and drafty, and the landlord died, leaving his widow to maintain the house. She sold it after I moved out. Right now a new deck and pergola are being put on the back of my new house. And I'm working on some landscaping and upgrades to my back yard - new bird feeders, new bird bath, some fence repair. There are some beautiful birds in my back yard, including a cardinal (my Mum loved cardinals), a dove, and a robin red-breast family. 

And I'm cooking, more, learning more about cooking, which I'm enjoying, except for the messiness of it all! Prepping food is very relaxing for me; I enjoy the smells and feel of fresh produce. When I was a kid, we grew our own vegetables and canned them for winter months (my grandparents were Depression-era survivors). One of my coping mechanisms was to acquire new cookware and kitchen gadgets and I'm really getting to use them and also get healthier (no more vending machine chips and big breakfast biscuits from the fast food chain). 
And I see my family more. I drive the 3 1/2 hours every so often to see two adult nieces and a nephew. I recently traveled the 7 hours to see family, including some English cousins I haven't seen in probably twenty years, and to celebrate a college graduation. 

I read a lot and I'm learning French (again - I learned to read it in college but I want to be able to speak it). My brain needs stimulation so it doesn't go to rot, since I'm trying to fend off dementia!

For over a year I saw a counselor. There was some limited return on that investment; at some of my sessions she talked more than I did, but I stopped going recently; I think we did all the work we could or needed to do. But she helped me learn to value myself and care more about myself and stop looking at perceived flaws. . . . and I'm working at getting a certificate in a field of interest to me, and will be looking for jobs near my family. Little kids don't care if you're twenty pounds heavier than you should be; they only care if you're fun, and they love you unconditionally. 

I'm at a good place, I think. My job is unsettling at times as my workplace goes through a major transition with a new CEO, and more and more online applications are unleashed on us. But I adapt, and try to see it as a challenge to overcome, which I always do, as this has been going on for a few years now.

I wish him well and hope he sorts out his life. I'm not giving up any of the progress I've made to have a partner of any sort, much less an ex cheating husband. He has dropped off the radar, which is fine and actually good. It was nice to hear from him, hear a semblance of "I'm sorry," to catch up on the fam, and move on.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

TeddieG said:


> @;
> 
> I was pretty much over it by the time he contacted me, but I am busy settling in to a new house. After 13 years in the house we lived in and rented (and the rent going up), I decided I needed a newer nicer place. The old house was hot or cold and drafty, and the landlord died, leaving his widow to maintain the house. She sold it after I moved out. Right now a new deck and pergola are being put on the back of my new house. And I'm working on some landscaping and upgrades to my back yard - new bird feeders, new bird bath, some fence repair. There are some beautiful birds in my back yard, including a cardinal (my Mum loved cardinals), a dove, and a robin red-breast family.
> 
> ...


I'm glad to hear you are taking care of you. Thats important - the BS can only fix the BS. The WS has to fix their own sh!t. Do you want to date at some point?


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## Slow Hand (Oct 4, 2015)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I'm glad to hear you are taking care of you. Thats important - the BS can only fix the BS. The WS has to fix their own sh!t. *Do you want to date at some point?*


Is that what TAM has come to? A dating site? 😝🤫:grin2:


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## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

Slow Hand said:


> Is that what TAM has come to? A dating site? 😝🤫:grin2:


I am sure there have been some hook-ups on here. On another forum I saw an EA develop, and thought I spotted one here, between two people trying to reconcile their marriages! 

I imagine Truthseeker1 is asking me because it has been over ten years since ex's insanity started. I played kissy- face with a couple of guys, one evening or two each, but there was nothing there, no chemistry long term. Both guys made the fatal mistake of treating me as if I am somebody whose job it is to sit and listen to them talk and not weigh in; they weren't interested in conversation, they were interested in a sounding board. Someone at work is like that too. I seem to be surrounded by men whose ego are so huge that they need to be the expert on everything, or the world is entitled to their opinion. Or maybe they just want to be listened to, but don't we all? 

I think the larger question for me is, do I went to spend these later years of my life far away from family and in a lion's den at work where no one really cares about me, other than what I can do for them. But I do have a group of friends that I hang out with and plan to entertain them more in my house when I get it settled.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

TeddieG said:


> I think the larger question for me is, do I went to spend these later years of my life far away from family and in a lion's den at work where no one really cares about me, other than what I can do for them. But I do have a group of friends that I hang out with and plan to entertain them more in my house when I get it settled.


Just figure out whats best for you. Your XH is getting what he deserves. He is a big boy and made his own bed. 

*What drives me nuts (and I'm not saying your XH said this) is when cheaters say they didnt deserve to be cheated on. That really gets under my skin. A question does that get under anyone else's skin? They use some bullsh!t line like well two wrongs don't make a right or some such nonsense*


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## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Just figure out whats best for you. Your XH is getting what he deserves. He is a big boy and made his own bed.
> 
> *What drives me nuts (and I'm not saying your XH said this) is when cheaters say they didnt deserve to be cheated on. That really gets under my skin. A question does that get under anyone else's skin? They use some bullsh!t line like well two wrongs don't make a right or some such nonsense*


My boss is retiring in two years, and he wants me to leave when he does. The people responsible for his evaluation this spring did a terrible job, and destroyed any good will that existed. I'm using that two years to get some training in something, either para legal training or a certificate in archiving/cataloging (I would have gotten a Library Science degree years ago instead of going after my PhD if there had been archiving/Cataloging classes - there were none - and I didn't want to be a reference librarian teaching people to search the internet), so I can make a move if need be. I'm not necessarily feeling like I want to leave my job, after 20 years in it, and spending a lot of time working up to a reasonable, if not stellar, salary. But I want to be mobile when I'm closer to retirement, so I can work part-time and have a decent standard of living. 

But the really interesting thing about XH is that his first wife cheated on him . . . they tried reconciling and it didn't work out. The last contact I had with him, when I decided to stop talking to him, he was wavering on the divorce of the OW because he said he can't stand to be lonely. Our life was pretty much drama free, and I think his bi polar self needs the drama. And as I observe his behavior and his inability to manage money, he behaves exactly like one of his sons, who is a drama king and never has enough money to take care of business. There must be something genetic about it, but if he ever got tired of it, he knows what to do. He just won't. That's one reason why I won't have him back; I don't drama or energy vampires. I don't have the energy for it.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

TeddieG said:


> But the really interesting thing about XH is that his first wife cheated on him . . . they tried reconciling and it didn't work out. The last contact I had with him, when I decided to stop talking to him, he was wavering on the divorce of the OW because he said he can't stand to be lonely. Our life was pretty much drama free, and I think his bi polar self needs the drama. And as I observe his behavior and his inability to manage money, he behaves exactly like one of his sons, who is a drama king and never has enough money to take care of business. There must be something genetic about it, but if he ever got tired of it, he knows what to do. He just won't. That's one reason why I won't have him back; I don't drama or energy vampires. I don't have the energy for it.



Wow he was a Bs and then did this to you? He sounds like some piece of work. His sh!t is his sh!t - you can not fix him and I'm glad you are not trying to.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Another question for everyone - has your Ws ever tried to compare their suffering to yours? Trying to be a victim as well?


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Do you mean...have they tried to validate their cheating by declaring how much pain they were in so they had to cheat? Or do you mean...the pain they felt AFTER the affair from the guilt and disappointment they had to live with?...and they think that pain is comparable to the pain of being cheated on?


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Do you mean...have they tried to validate their cheating by declaring how much pain they were in so they had to cheat? Or do you mean.*..the pain they felt AFTER the affair from the guilt and disappointment they had to live with?...and they think that pain is comparable to the pain of being cheated on?[*/QUOTE]
> @Mrs. John Adams The second scenario is what I am talking about.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Duplicate post


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

I believe infidelity cause everyone involved pain...and I also believe comparing one pain to another is just about impossible...no two people process pain or feel pain the same way because we are individuals. So for me to declare my pain was equal to or worse than John's pain is not only not measurable...it would also certainly show that i am not remorseful. A remorseful wayward....has to move beyond the pain they may feel...and concentrate on the pain they have caused. Therein lies a clue to the betrayed whether their wayward has begun the process toward remorse.

If your wayward is still self absorbed and declaring how much pain they are in...they simply do not get it. If they try to tell you how much they are suffering and are not concentrating how to alleviate the pain they have caused you....they REALLY don't get it.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> If your wayward is still self absorbed and declaring how much pain they are in...they simply do not get it. If they try to tell you how much they are suffering and are not concentrating how to alleviate the pain they have caused you....they REALLY don't get it.


Agree 100%. I also think there is a big difference between self inflicted pain and pain caused by another. To me it also shows that the Ws wants to be a "victim" of the infidelity as well as the perpetrator. In other words it is all about them controlling the situation and remaining in the spotlight.


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