# Please help me focus (manning up)



## Acorn

I am on my manning up journey and want to tackle my biggest barrier in the marriage - hoping for some guidance on how to go about this. The pertinent background is this: we are in our early 40s, 2 kids in early grade school. When I met my wife, I was a different person, still recovering from an abusive childhood where I felt comfortable (in a sense) being yelled at and told what to do. The last couple years, I have been recovering, but it seems the more I recover, the worse my marriage gets.

My wife by her own admission is very controlling. This has been the one constant in the marriage. Unlike some other controlling folks, though, hers seems to be drawn from fear. I remember a time when I playfully took a very flimsy scarf and started to tie it around her wrist - she gave me a look that wasn't anger, but fear - almost like I would expect if I was threatening to stab her or something. It was weird and scary to see that reaction.

Anyway, we had a conversation the other day which sums up our control issues. (For background, when we were married, she insisted that she take control of the finances, because I was late with one payment somewhere along the line. Our credit scores are both optimal.) It went something like this:

Her: I just don't have time to do the things you seem to need me to do, and I want to see my family and friends more and I can't even do that.
Me: I do not understand - I offered to pay the checks every month so you could have time to invest in me and your family and friends.
Her: Last time you did the checks, there was a late payment.
Me: And when you took over, you had late payments. I still trust you.
Her: Yes, but those were because (blah blah blah excuse here). I don't know if I can trust you to do the checks.
Me: You are putting me in an impossible position. You are blaming me for your lack of free time but you are preventing me from assisting you so you have more free time.
Her: Well, you can do the checks then, but if there is even one late payment, there will be consequences. My credit rating is at stake. I'll decide what the consequences are tomorrow.

I muttered something like "forget that" and walked away.

There must be some way I can handle these conversations better, and help her to see the underlying problem that she has serious control/trust issues. Help!


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## Hicks

Her: I just don't have time to do the things you seem to need me to do, and I want to see my family and friends more and I can't even do that.

You: Hmm... I don't want to give you so many things to do that you can't see your family and friends. In fact I didn't realize I was "giving you things to do". But anyway, how do you think we can fix this?

Please, forget the concept of logically "arguing" with your wife. 
Her statement was not an invitation to logically solve her problem. It was an invitation to feel her momentary emotional pain and help her get out of it.

Her: Well, you can do the checks then, but if there is even one late payment, there will be consequences. My credit rating is at stake. I'll decide what the consequences are tomorrow.
You: Dear, I am going to do the bills. I am going to do my best and guess what I may miss a payment. You are not my mother and are not going to "give me a consequence". Am I clear?


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## Riverside MFT

You are not going to convince her that she has control issues.  She has to come to this conclusion herself. What you have to do is not allow yourself to be controlled. Stand-up for yourself. If you have an opinion, express it. When she trys to argue with her, listen to her, repeat what she says, but don't let it get to you.

When she gives in, like letting you take care of the checks in your example. Just simply say, "Thank you," in a respectful manner. Don't let her controlling attitude allow you to be completely submissive to her every demand.


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## BigBadWolf

She is merely acting like a woman will act when her insecurities are not calmed.

Your example is full of "Fitness tests". 

First step, learn to recognize them, then learn to master them.

Fitness tests are not logical, not rational, only emotional, so these tings that make no sense to you logically, and only irrational and beyound reason, that is merely fitness tests. 

No sense in arguing or debating them (such as your checking account paying discussion), only need is to recognize them and maintain your calm, confidence, and humor.

Want to address the "real" issue?

Your woman WANTS to see you demonstrate rock solid confidence, such as insisting to handle the checking account (or whatever is the situation), and confidence is standing up TO her, and standing up FOR your self.

Do this over time, and you will see her respect and trust for you increase, and you will see her controlling and insecurity behaviors decrease. 

Respect and insecurity, in a relationship they are inversely related.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18347-fitness-tests.html


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## Halien

Acorn said:


> Her: Well, you can do the checks then, but if there is even one late payment, there will be consequences. My credit rating is at stake. I'll decide what the consequences are tomorrow.
> 
> I muttered something like "forget that" and walked away.
> 
> There must be some way I can handle these conversations better, and help her to see the underlying problem that she has serious control/trust issues. Help!


Acorn, I can see from your posts that you have a very solid grasp of fairness and discernment, so recognize that my response to the section above is a bit of a gut reaction. Maybe its in the place where I go from just being a very determined sort to being pigheaded.

Honestly, I can't imagine myself responding differently, so I'll just say it. I would come back to her later and tell her that when she feels comfortable laying down consequences, she is effectively laying down punishment. Say "Our marriage covenent was a vow of partnership, and respect. I'll tell you what you really need to decide, instead of my punishment, or whether you deem me to be worthy of handling our finances. I want you to decide once and for all that this will be the last time you feel entitled to judge or punish me. I think we both knew that punishment was not a part of our marriage vows, so I hope this can be the last time we have this discussion. "

Recognize that the manning up journey is about recapturing your manhood, but not pushing her downward into a subservient role. She has, in a sense, elevated her role for a long time, so the process of recapturing might be painful.


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## Acorn

Thanks for the replies, I have been thinking a lot about them.

I think I've been going about this all wrong. I have been trying to fix things, but in the complete wrong way. For instance, my wife gets on me when I am late, even when I have a very good reason. She is late a lot for things, and up until a couple years ago, I just shrugged it off and tried to just be happy she was home... but lately I've been trying to call her on it. Seemed the "fair" thing to do, but really I'm just trying to control her the same way she tries to control me. I don't really like that part of my new self, maybe this is the way out of that trap. Don't try to match her control, but de-escalate it; don't sweat it when she's late with reason, but if she gets on me, just convey I'm not interested in her efforts to control me and walk away.

I guess it begs the question, why do I want to live in an environment with all this testing and controlling going on? Maybe that's the advanced class...  Thanks for the help.


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## BigBadWolf

Acorn said:


> Thanks for the replies, I have been thinking a lot about them.
> 
> I think I've been going about this all wrong. I have been trying to fix things, but in the complete wrong way. For instance, my wife gets on me when I am late, even when I have a very good reason. She is late a lot for things, and up until a couple years ago, I just shrugged it off and tried to just be happy she was home... but lately I've been trying to call her on it. Seemed the "fair" thing to do, but really I'm just trying to control her the same way she tries to control me. I don't really like that part of my new self, maybe this is the way out of that trap.


If you are forcing yourself too much, it will not be sincere. Matching a fitness test tit for tat, is much the same as trying to negotiate or reason with logic, it usually won't work, as you are still by some accord being provoked into a reaction, which is by defintion "failing" the tests.



> Don't try to match her control, but de-escalate it; don't sweat it when she's late with reason, but if she gets on me, just convey I'm not interested in her efforts to control me and walk away.


This is exactly correct 100 percent! 



> I guess it begs the question, why do I want to live in an environment with all this testing and controlling going on? Maybe that's the advanced class...  Thanks for the help.


Good question.

Wherever you find a man and woman in a sexual relatoinship, there will be testing of some sort.

The trick is, perhaps your point of "advanced class", is the tests in fact decrease a great deal once you communicate exactly like you said, you are not "interested in her efforts to control" you, and walk away. 

And they REALLY decrease once you put into place the well honed skill of initiated your own displays of dominance, your own challenges TO her, instead of merely reacting to the ones FROM her.


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## joshbjoshb

Acorn said:


> I guess it begs the question, why do I want to live in an environment with all this testing and controlling going on? Maybe that's the advanced class...  Thanks for the help.


Because then the tests will decrease very fast over time... once you will be a man, she will be a woman - right now you are acting like a woman yourself, scared of her and just say yes for whatever she is commanding you...

The secret to man up is to be happy with yourself, show that you are very secure about what you believe and do.

THIS IS what every woman is yearning for! A confident man! Not someone who will do what she is asking!


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## Acorn

Update... and a question...

I have been trying to play the game and ace any fitness tests I have seen the last couple weeks. Seems like right now, I recognize them after they happen, but I have passed a few. I have also been working on being more assertive and she has said things like, "oooh decisive!" and "I like when you take charge." in a playful but honest manner.

My question is this... many times the fitness tests go a lot differently than what I read in the Clubhouse, and I don't know if I'm recognizing them wrong. For instance:

Wife: So, we'll have to rake these leaves, put them in bags, rent a pickup truck and take them away.
Me: I have a better idea, I'm going to rake the leaves into the woods.
Wife: I don't know if I can go for that. I like to walk in the woods and there are so many leaves, sometimes they really bother me.
Me: Leaves are going to fall in the woods whether we rake them in there or not...if you would like me to help rake, I'm raking them into the woods.
Wife: I guess I'll do it myself.
Me: Ok, fine.

or

Wife: Your (distant) nephew's birthday party is today. We'll have to leave by noon and we'll leave around 8pm.
Me: We've talked about this... spending 8 hours on an in-law trip for me is too long for my taste. How about we leave at 5pm as a compromise?
Wife: I hate leaving early. I'll just take the kids and go myself. Or you can take a separate car and come if you want.

So... while I have upgraded from accepting blind orders like "Don't put leaves in the woods" and such, the net result is that I'm still not generating the togetherness I'm looking for. It's great not to have to rake, nor have to go to these in-law visits, but now we are drifting further apart than before, and she seemingly is just fine with this. What am I doing wrong?


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## Deejo

You are caught up in bargaining. Presuming that you want to be rational, in what you described, it sounds like all of your offers are compromises ... and she then simply gets to ignore your compromise.

Everything needn't be important to you. You don't have to bump back on everything. But you do need to bump back hard on what is important to you. No compromise. You set the limit, and that's it.

Which begs the next step. Decide what is important to you.

Learn to mirror. It gives you time to process what she is saying, and correspondingly, decide if you want to buy in, or burn it down.

For example:

Wife: So, we'll have to rake these leaves, put them in bags, rent a pickup truck and take them away.

You: So you are suggesting that 'we' need to rake, bag, and rent a vehicle in order to get rid of the leaves in the yard? Really? How about we rake the leaves into the woods, and then use the money you wanted to blow on renting a truck to go out to dinner? 

Then take it from there. Her reason for not wanting to rake into the woods is not only selfish ... it's plain friggin silly.

As for the party? That one you should have bumped back on hard, presuming you had previously discussed it. Only reason she consistently challenges you, is because she knows she consistently wins. You need to get comfortable with throwing down with her. She needs to get as comfortable with 'No' as she has trained you to be.

Wife: Your (distant) nephew's birthday party is today. We'll have to leave by noon and we'll leave around 8pm.

You: We've talked about this... spending 8 hours on an in-law trip for me is too long for my taste. How about we leave at 5pm as a compromise?

Wife: I hate leaving early. I'll just take the kids and go myself. Or you can take a separate car and come if you want.

You: We'll take one car. We'll be leaving at 5. Up to you if you want to be part of that plan.


What are you doing wrong?

You are looking at the entire process backwards. She doesn't respect you right now. She is going to respect you LESS as you bump back in an effort to become the man she can respect. One of the possibilities is that she is only interested in you as an 'employee' and NOT a partner or lover. The only way you make that discovery is by taking these steps.


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## alphaomega

I'm not sure if this is the best approach, but I too had trouble figuring out the fitness tests until after the fact. Like anything, it takes practice.

However, since I was a rookie, I just got into the habit of the "eye roll". 

Wife: so....we have to rake these leaves, bag them, rent a truck, and get them out of here.

Me: look at her with a subtle "are you fkn crazy?" look. Roll eyes. Turn. Leave house. Grab rake. Rake leaves into forest.


Maybe a marginal pass, at best. But until I got more experience, it was the safe bet.

After a while, I got a bit better. But found adding humor a bit tricky still during every incident....

Her: I hate leaving early. Take a separate car if you want.
Me: sure! Then I can blast the stereo! Hey kids? Want to drive up with dad? It will be way more fun in my car! And moms paying for gas!


Deejo has it spot on. It just takes practice. Especially with the humor aspect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hicks

I don't think it was a fitness test, unless she was speaking to you in a condescending tone. She was expressing a need. Women do have a need for certain order around the house, and things like leaves on the ground, messes inside, garbage not going out weigh on their mind. And that weight blocks her mind from going to a sexual place. The true answer to this is for you to be "in charge" of taking care of the manly aspects of the home in such a way that it is done to a high standard, on time, and there is no need for her to tell you how to do it or remind you about it. 

Now, when you look at how she responded to you about the party:

Wife: I hate leaving early. I'll just take the kids and go myself. Or you can take a separate car and come if you want.

This is a manned up answer. She states her reasoning and her solution. When you said "I have a better idea, I will rake the leaves into the woods", that is a bad answer as you did not state your reason and made you look weak, childish and lazy.

Without allowing yourself to get ordered around by your wife I will say that it's quite biologically based that wives want their home environment a certain way, and it's important that you are delivering that to her.

And, when you look at leaving early from the party.... Where is that coming from? She will be embarrassed to leave early and risk disapproval from the "pack" of women in the family. 

I believe in manning up, but it's important to understand and deliver on the needs of your woman. It is good for her to express needs, but the way she does it has to be managed by you.


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## Acorn

Deejo said:


> You are caught up in bargaining. Presuming that you want to be rational, in what you described, it sounds like all of your offers are compromises ... and she then simply gets to ignore your compromise.


I definitely see this. 

Her: I want the leaves raked and I want them raked my way.
Me: Well how about I'll rake the leaves, but my way?
Her: No.



Deejo said:


> Wife: I hate leaving early. I'll just take the kids and go myself. Or you can take a separate car and come if you want.
> 
> You: We'll take one car. We'll be leaving at 5. Up to you if you want to be part of that plan.


I will try this, but I don't have high hopes tbh. She has demonstrated that she would rather go without me than leave early.



Deejo said:


> What are you doing wrong? You are looking at the entire process backwards. She doesn't respect you right now. She is going to respect you LESS as you bump back in an effort to become the man she can respect. One of the possibilities is that she is only interested in you as an 'employee' and NOT a partner or lover. The only way you make that discovery is by taking these steps.


I think I understand this. My goal is to destabilize the current mechanics and try to build new ones. And your end comment really rings true. The more I have been stepping up my efforts around the house, the more I feel like we are a terrific team on all things chores, and it is making her very happy, but I still feel pretty empty as we just seem like a business relationship 90% of the time and parents the other 10%. Maybe that's the point of this.


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## Acorn

alphaomega said:


> However, since I was a rookie, I just got into the habit of the "eye roll".
> 
> Wife: so....we have to rake these leaves, bag them, rent a truck, and get them out of here.
> 
> Me: look at her with a subtle "are you fkn crazy?" look. Roll eyes. Turn. Leave house. Grab rake. Rake leaves into forest.


LOL - I have done this with her a couple times and she sees the look and says "You think I'm crazy, don't you."


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## Conrad

Acorn said:


> I will try this, but I don't have high hopes tbh. She has demonstrated that she would rather go without me than leave early.


Will that hurt you in some way?

Let her experience being there without you.

You might be surprised at the results.


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## Acorn

Hicks said:


> I don't think it was a fitness test, unless she was speaking to you in a condescending tone. She was expressing a need. Women do have a need for certain order around the house, and things like leaves on the ground, messes inside, garbage not going out weigh on their mind. And that weight blocks her mind from going to a sexual place. The true answer to this is for you to be "in charge" of taking care of the manly aspects of the home in such a way that it is done to a high standard, on time, and there is no need for her to tell you how to do it or remind you about it.
> 
> Now, when you look at how she responded to you about the party:
> 
> Wife: I hate leaving early. I'll just take the kids and go myself. Or you can take a separate car and come if you want.
> 
> This is a manned up answer. She states her reasoning and her solution. When you said "I have a better idea, I will rake the leaves into the woods", that is a bad answer as you did not state your reason and made you look weak, childish and lazy.
> 
> Without allowing yourself to get ordered around by your wife I will say that it's quite biologically based that wives want their home environment a certain way, and it's important that you are delivering that to her.
> 
> And, when you look at leaving early from the party.... Where is that coming from? She will be embarrassed to leave early and risk disapproval from the "pack" of women in the family.
> 
> I believe in manning up, but it's important to understand and deliver on the needs of your woman. It is good for her to express needs, but the way she does it has to be managed by you.


Hicks, I love your posts, they are always very thought out, but I just am having trouble digesting this one.

The choices were:
a) Rake the leaves downhill into the woods where millions of leaves currently exist.
b) Rake the leaves uphill, bag them, rent a truck and pay for a disposal of the leaves.

Isn't manning up supposed to be specifically about standing up and saying option b) is ridiculous and I'm just not going to do it? If I need to keep the woods free of leaves for her to have a sexual interest in me, this is not the relationship for me... I think Deejo was hinting at that.

Often times with her, it is not enough to get the task done, but it MUST be done her way no matter how smart or silly that way is for her to be happy. 

With regard to the party and her inlaws, there is ALWAYS a family event every weekend... if there isn't, they think up an excuse to have one. Yet, when I have something I want to do with her, she claims there is not enough time in the day to do it. (Her excuse for a 5 year virtually sexless stint was not lack of attraction or respect, but "life gets in the way".) I have decided that I have been patient enough with this dynamic and if she can't find time for me, I'm leaving. I'm trying to figure out the most manly way to say, "You are going to have to decide which is more important, having a husband, or looking good for the extended family. Staying until 5pm at a party which is listed as 1-3pm is more than enough time to look good in front of family, and it still saves time for us."


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## Acorn

Conrad said:


> Will that hurt you in some way?
> 
> Let her experience being there without you.
> 
> You might be surprised at the results.


I know my marriage is totally FUBAR in some aspects, but I stopped going to these things a while ago. She just goes herself. She will tell me that she resents that I do not go. She will tell me she is the only one there without a partner. She will tell me her friends do not understand why she stays with me if I don't go with her.

Yet, when I try to clearly convey to her why I do not go, she will not compromise at all. I have tried to re-introduce the idea of me going with her again, being more assertive of my needs (not staying 8 hours at a two hour party), but it does not really phase her.

And maybe she's been telling me that her family is more important than me all this time and I just haven't seen it until now. Hmmm.


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## DanG

And, I have begun employing the elimination of the "Dear," "Honey," "XYZ-nickname," technique as well - mostly. I can see the point that it can put any person in the position of a generic relational "entity" rather than the PERSON you are / she is. Without announcement, I have begun calling my wife of 18+ years by her name. Occasionally I ignor a "honey" to cause her to call me by my name. Get creative - have fun with it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hicks

Acorn said:


> The choices were:
> a) Rake the leaves downhill into the woods where millions of leaves currently exist.
> b) Rake the leaves uphill, bag them, rent a truck and pay for a disposal of the leaves.
> 
> Isn't manning up supposed to be specifically about standing up and saying option b) is ridiculous and I'm just not going to do it? If I need to keep the woods free of leaves for her to have a sexual interest in me, this is not the relationship for me... I think Deejo was hinting at that.
> 
> Often times with her, it is not enough to get the task done, but it MUST be done her way no matter how smart or silly that way is for her to be happy.


a) and b) are Male Logic. You are not dealing with a male you are dealing with a female. Something wrong with the state of the home environment starts out as a small breeze that blows by her. Then it goes in her head where it gets swirled round and round until it becomes a tornado. The tornado is let out with a plan to obliterate all leaves from her planet (her house). So you should not be logically trying to get her to see that the leaves should be raked down hill. This particular battle is won when you recognize that it's important to keep your wife's mind from creating tornadoes out of your basic chores. If she his asking you to do it, you are too late. You let the sex blocking tornado brew around in her head.

You can't successfully "Man Up" if you are not minding your side of the street. You must be good at meeting her needs, the manning up is just a reminder to her to put things in context. Like, if you like your life then show me the proper respect.

And yes, you have to realize that there is work on your part to maintain your wife in a mode where she is feeling sexual. This is the critical mistake men make thinking "She should just be into me". You have to take actoins that seemingly have nothing to do with sex to keep her sexual. And any time she expresses a need you should take note of it. With the leaves thing she is telling you she wants a nicely maintained yard. This is a normal need for a wife. Pay attention. If you think a woman who worries about the state of the home / her life / cleanliness of your house in order to be sexual is "not the woman for me", then very few women will be the right woman for you. It's when you realize that things that today seem unimportant to you and having nothing to do with sex are actually tied to sex that you will start wanting to do them.

Now if your wife is truly saying "We need to XXX" then your response is to talk about what parts she is going to do and what parts you are going to do. If she is saying it condescendingly or using the word We need to to mean You Need to... Then you say, Dear are you really saying "I need to XXX?". I don't appreciate being ordered around.



Acorn said:


> With regard to the party and her inlaws, there is ALWAYS a family event every weekend... if there isn't, they think up an excuse to have one. Yet, when I have something I want to do with her, she claims there is not enough time in the day to do it. (Her excuse for a 5 year virtually sexless stint was not lack of attraction or respect, but "life gets in the way".) I have decided that I have been patient enough with this dynamic and if she can't find time for me, I'm leaving. I'm trying to figure out the most manly way to say, "You are going to have to decide which is more important, having a husband, or looking good for the extended family. Staying until 5pm at a party which is listed as 1-3pm is more than enough time to look good in front of family, and it still saves time for us."


Her line of thinking is true. She is not fitness testing you. She wants to do these other things instead of having sex. She wants to be with her family instead of being alone with you having sex. The question is what can you do to make her want to be with you instead of her family. What do they give her that you don't? Meeting her needs is a critical part of your equation.


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## Acorn

Hicks said:


> a) and b) are Male Logic. You are not dealing with a male you are dealing with a female. Something wrong with the state of the home environment starts out as a small breeze that blows by her. Then it goes in her head where it gets swirled round and round until it becomes a tornado. The tornado is let out with a plan to obliterate all leaves from her planet (her house). So you should not be logically trying to get her to see that the leaves should be raked down hill. This particular battle is won when you recognize that it's important to keep your wife's mind from creating tornadoes out of your basic chores. If she his asking you to do it, you are too late. You let the sex blocking tornado brew around in her head.


OK, so thinking about this, maybe she was just anxious about the hurricane passing through that night. She is a very task oriented person. Maybe the best response would have been:

Wife: So, we'll have to rake these leaves, put them in bags, rent a pickup truck and take them away.
Me: You are so cute when you are worried. I know the hurricane made you nervous but the yard is fine and I'm going to get rid of the leaves this morning. I'm going to rake them into the woods, but if it is important to you to have them removed, I can rake them into piles and you can take it from there.

(Trying to show that I understand her emotions, I think her request is somewhat irrational, but I'll work with it to a degree if it's important to her.)



Hicks said:


> Her line of thinking is true. She is not fitness testing you. She wants to do these other things instead of having sex. She wants to be with her family instead of being alone with you having sex. The question is what can you do to make her want to be with you instead of her family. What do they give her that you don't? Meeting her needs is a critical part of your equation.


Just FYI, this is not specifically about sex. I'd settle for a nice quiet afternoon watching a movie on the couch without distraction from friends/family/work/chores.

To answer your question, she is afraid how her family would look at her if she didn't go to these events or left early too often. She is apparently NOT afraid of what is going to happen with me if she doesn't spend time with me. She CONSISTENTLY says she'd rather be with me, but her actions show that she is driven more by her fear of her family's reaction than what she really wants to do. 

I am not sure how many women or men really would be happy in a marriage where their spouse finds hours and hours to be out with their friends and family, but can't get past the chores long enough to simply be present in the marriage. If her friends/family were another man, or porn, or alcohol, or whatever, this would be such a no brainer to divorce. I am having a hard time seeing why this is so different tbh. We have an intruder in the marriage and she is not willing to address the issue even though she knows it is important to me. (We have not had a vacation that did not involve her family in about a decade. She simply doesn't see why this is important.)


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## Acorn

And thank you to everyone responding. I am learning a lot and I am grateful for your time.


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## Enchantment

Hicks said:


> I don't think it was a fitness test, unless she was speaking to you in a condescending tone. She was expressing a need. Women do have a need for certain order around the house, and things like leaves on the ground, messes inside, garbage not going out weigh on their mind. And that weight blocks her mind from going to a sexual place. The true answer to this is for you to be "in charge" of taking care of the manly aspects of the home in such a way that it is done to a high standard, on time, and there is no need for her to tell you how to do it or remind you about it.
> 
> Now, when you look at how she responded to you about the party:
> 
> Wife: I hate leaving early. I'll just take the kids and go myself. Or you can take a separate car and come if you want.
> 
> This is a manned up answer. She states her reasoning and her solution. When you said "I have a better idea, I will rake the leaves into the woods", that is a bad answer as you did not state your reason and made you look weak, childish and lazy.
> 
> Without allowing yourself to get ordered around by your wife I will say that it's quite biologically based that wives want their home environment a certain way, and it's important that you are delivering that to her.
> 
> And, when you look at leaving early from the party.... Where is that coming from? She will be embarrassed to leave early and risk disapproval from the "pack" of women in the family.
> 
> *I believe in manning up, but it's important to understand and deliver on the needs of your woman. It is good for her to express needs, but the way she does it has to be managed by you*.


:iagree:

Hicks, thanks for this post!

I have noticed after looking at many posts that sometimes when a man gets to the point of "manning up", he often still seems to not understand that he just may not be meeting his wife's needs and that can get lost in the man up shuffle. I appreciate you stating that. 


@ Acorn ~

Have you and your wife ever read the following together: Amazon.com: His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage (9780800719388): Willard F. Jr. Harley: Books

Or gone to the following site and worked through the questionnaires: Emotional Needs Questionnaire

I am all for manning up. I think that it is very easy for men to defer to their wives in likely the same manner they deferred to their moms - that is after all the model that they have been used to.

But as a woman and a wife, we want a MAN. We do not want our man to act like another child.

We want him to be DECISIVE, to have DIRECTION, to have COMPASSION and HUMOR. We want him to DESIRE US above all others, and part of that is him caring enough for us to be able to figure out what really IS important to us.

And I will be the first to admit that many women can be very obtuse about communicating any of this to their man - maybe because we are just expecting a man to be a man and we have a hard time figuring out how to handle a man-child, or maybe, unfortunately the woman has also not had a positive role-model in being a wife in a marriage.

Go peruse this thread ongoing in the Ladies Lounge, if you haven't already. You may be able to relate to the fellow there and he has gotten some very good advice: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/30738-am-i-really-selfish-jerk.html

Best wishes on success going forward, Acorn!


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## Bigrascal

I'm the fellow who posted the Am I a Selfish Jerk thread. I have another thread in the Men's Lounge as well. 

As I'm working my way through this and digesting the advice I am receiving, I think at least a couple of things jump out at me:

1. Pay attention to the needs of your W and see how you are not meeting them. It seems easy (and in other relationships it has been for me), but it's not for me with my W. We are different and the way she feels loved and needed is different than what I'm used to giving. When you don't address her needs you get fitness tests.

2. You can spend all your time passing fitness tests and manning up. Doing this for yourself is good, but if you are not addressing your W's needs - or the fundamental problem - it may not matter so much.

There are reasons why I don't address her needs or make her feel valued. She criticizes me and has for a very long time, it makes me withdraw and become defensive. When I withdraw I don't look out for her needs.

For a while I was simply focused on passing fitness tests and thought it was as simple as that, but its not.


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## Halien

I think its easy to let this turn into some sort of power struggle. Remember, though, manning up doesn't get judged by whether she does things your way. Its you staying true to yourself, regardless of how she responds. Its being like a stable foundation that never crumbles.

She likes her house taken care of a certain way. If her tone is condecending, just challenge her each and every time about the tone, but not the leaves. Every person is different, but if my wife approached me with the idea of how she wanted the leaves done, my normal reply would be, "Fine, we'll do it your way, but you better put out later." Usually, she'll pretend to be a little offended, but I'll ignore it. The whole time we are raking leaves, I'm unbuttoning her blouse, while she pretends to be annoyed. It takes boldness to begin controlling the sexual side of the relationship, instead of seeking permission, but establishing that dynamic there will often change the entire dynamic of the marriage.

Regarding the family event for a distant relative, I'm sorry, but I would have little patience for that if it was every weekend. The moment you hear about the event coming up, why not book a night at a luxury hotel for just the two of you the night before, and arrange childcare? Make it a surprise. Not many people would want to throw away a chance for that.


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## Hicks

I spent a little time reading your other posts.

My main recommendation is to meet her needs, in her love lanugage for a specific period of time. If you are meeting her needs well, she will move into a happier state. This is guaranteed. Then, when she is in a happier state and you are sure she is in a happier state to a point where a threat to end the marriage will be considered a "loss" for her, that is when you start asserting your needs to be met. Don't try go have her meet your needs until you are doing a good job meeting hers. Your needs: Sex, putting marriage relationship FIRST in her life etc.

But the absolute key is making sure 100% you are meeting her needs. You will know you are doing it when she becomes a happy person. There is no other standard. It has nothing to do with what she says to you. It's very easy to screw up acts of service. If you are not meeting her act of service proactively and with enthusiasm (think about how you want Sex from her) then you are not meeting her need really at all in fact you are doing the opposite. You are telling her your need is not important to me, so I will take the easiest possible approach in fulfilling it (wait till you complain, and then do a substandard job). No different that the wife who "agrees" to have sex but lays there or complains about it.


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## WayTooAverage

Hicks said:


> I spent a little time reading your other posts.
> 
> My main recommendation is to meet her needs, in her love lanugage for a specific period of time. If you are meeting her needs well, she will move into a happier state. This is guaranteed. Then, when she is in a happier state and you are sure she is in a happier state to a point where a threat to end the marriage will be considered a "loss" for her, that is when you start asserting your needs to be met. Don't try go have her meet your needs until you are doing a good job meeting hers. Your needs: Sex, putting marriage relationship FIRST in her life etc.
> 
> But the absolute key is making sure 100% you are meeting her needs. You will know you are doing it when she becomes a happy person. There is no other standard. It has nothing to do with what she says to you. It's very easy to screw up acts of service. If you are not meeting her act of service proactively and with enthusiasm (think about how you want Sex from her) then you are not meeting her need really at all in fact you are doing the opposite. You are telling her your need is not important to me, so I will take the easiest possible approach in fulfilling it (wait till you complain, and then do a substandard job). No different that the wife who "agrees" to have sex but lays there or complains about it.



*YOU MAKE EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT POINTS!!! THANK YOU! * *I will definitely take your advice!* :smthumbup: :iagree:


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## Acorn

Thanks for all the comments!

@Enchantment: I have read the his needs, her needs book. It hasn't helped in the way I thought it would... I have tried to step up on her needs in a big way, but for her, she generally will say "I'm just not that person" when we get to Domestic Tranquility, Recreational Companion, Attractive Spouse, and Sexual Fulfillment. "Maybe you should find someone else if those are your needs." Yet, she'll turn around and say I'm her everything and she hopes I'll stay.

@BigRascal: Our dynamics are similar. I have until very a few years ago been withdrawing whenever she gets critical. And she is, by her own admission, a woman that struggles with control (but won't work on herself to fix it). It was a big step forward for me to simply confront problems. At first, I had little success but my confrontational skills were pretty poor and scorched earth. I have improved a lot. And to my wife's credit, she has been stepping up, but in HER love languages. (i.e. she has been taking on new acts of service for me, even though I have previously told her acts of service don't mean a whole lot to me.)

@Halien: Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. The progress I've made so far has made me feel so alive and so different, it's worth it no matter how things turn out. I might try your idea about the overnight. We had an incident a couple years back where I tried to arrange an overnight and she wouldn't go, claiming the kids were too young. Two weeks later, she wanted me to stay home with the kids while she visited her family for a week. I was stunned, and have been generally turned off from trying that since. Might be worth another try.

@Hicks - Thank you this makes a lot of sense to me - this is $$$. We have been going through a lot of problems for a while now, but the last two months, I've been really busting my butt trying to meet her needs. I am sure I am not perfect about this, but she told me the other day, "you have been meeting my requirements for an ideal marriage now better than you ever have...thank you." She has been considerably happier for the most part. For my part, I need to keep going, improving. I have communicated to her my needs and she has promised to do a couple things by the end of Sept - hitting the gym to drop 10 pounds, finding a co-ed activity that we can join together, etc. Maybe this is a great test along the lines of what you are saying - if I can honestly say that I have put forward a huge effort, and I watch her sink back into her comfort zone without making any effort on my end, I have my answer. If she puts forward a relatively equal effort, regardless of results, maybe we have some hope to build on.

One odd thing about this manning up... You start first as a "doormat", blindly meeting whatever need she states as best you can. You are told to man up. You start realizing that your needs have not ever really been tended too. You start focusing on your needs. You minimize your wife's needs. You are still in the doghouse but now she's ticked off at you. Seems like the way to win is like you are all saying, working on myself to rediscover and define myself... while trying to watch and understand and meet the needs of my wife. If she's willing to do the same, the marriage wins, and if not, time to go.


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## Hicks

Acorn said:


> "Maybe you should find someone else if those are your needs."


That is a fitness test. She's looking for you to back down on what a true marriage is vs stick to your principles. Express confidence that she is capable of meeting your needs, just as she was capable of learning to meet the needs of the children as their mother.



Acorn said:


> If she puts forward a relatively equal effort, regardless of results, maybe we have some hope to build on.


You are 100% on the right track. Do not ever forget that this is the standard you hold her to.



Acorn said:


> One odd thing about this manning up... You start first as a "doormat", blindly meeting whatever need she states as best you can. You are told to man up. You start realizing that your needs have not ever really been tended too. You start focusing on your needs. You minimize your wife's needs. You are still in the doghouse but now she's ticked off at you. Seems like the way to win is like you are all saying, working on myself to rediscover and define myself... while trying to watch and understand and meet the needs of my wife. If she's willing to do the same, the marriage wins, and if not, time to go.


Again, you are 100% right on here. The only thing is manning up is never about minimizing your wife's needs. It's about recognizing that since you ARE meeting her needs, you don't allow yourself to be treated badly by her.


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## Bigrascal

Hicks said:


> Again, you are 100% right on here. The only thing is manning up is never about minimizing your wife's needs. It's about recognizing that since you ARE meeting her needs, you don't allow yourself to be treated badly by her.


That's the money quote. I think I just "got it."


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## MEM2020

Alpha,
Your biggest issue was your aversion to going head to head, one on one. You dragged the kids into the equation as fast and hard as you could. 

We will take one car - in a calm voice means - it is one car or I don't attend - full stop. AND when she gets home you are out doing something with a friend. The "sit home and wait" model is a bust from the get go. 

And if she says fine don't come you get on the phone with a friend and make plans in a happy voice. 




alphaomega said:


> I'm not sure if this is the best approach, but I too had trouble figuring out the fitness tests until after the fact. Like anything, it takes practice.
> 
> However, since I was a rookie, I just got into the habit of the "eye roll".
> 
> Wife: so....we have to rake these leaves, bag them, rent a truck, and get them out of here.
> 
> Me: look at her with a subtle "are you fkn crazy?" look. Roll eyes. Turn. Leave house. Grab rake. Rake leaves into forest.
> 
> 
> Maybe a marginal pass, at best. But until I got more experience, it was the safe bet.
> 
> After a while, I got a bit better. But found adding humor a bit tricky still during every incident....
> 
> Her: I hate leaving early. Take a separate car if you want.
> Me: sure! Then I can blast the stereo! Hey kids? Want to drive up with dad? It will be way more fun in my car! And moms paying for gas!
> 
> 
> Deejo has it spot on. It just takes practice. Especially with the humor aspect.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alphaomega

MEM11363 said:


> Alpha,
> Your biggest issue was your aversion to going head to head, one on one. You dragged the kids into the equation as fast and hard as you could.
> 
> We will take one car - in a calm voice means - it is one car or I don't attend - full stop. AND when she gets home you are out doing something with a friend. The "sit home and wait" model is a bust from the get go.
> 
> And if she says fine don't come you get on the phone with a friend and make plans in a happy voice.


Interesting point. My take was that the entire comment was so absurd, I would turn the tables on her and let her take the separate car. Although could see from that theoretical response that it would appear I am dragging the kids into the equation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kevan

Hicks said:


> But the absolute key is making sure 100% you are meeting her needs. You will know you are doing it when she becomes a happy person. There is no other standard.





Hicks said:


> The only thing is manning up is never about minimizing your wife's needs. It's about recognizing that since you ARE meeting her needs, you don't allow yourself to be treated badly by her.


The basic point--that a self-actualized man knows it is his responsibility to help meet his wife's needs, as well as to demand that she help meet his--is right on, but the two pieces of advice above seem to feed into the Nice Guy syndrome. Nice Guys are afraid to assert themselves until they're 100% sure that they've done right by their wives. And they're never 100% sure. After all, if their wives aren't happy, it obviously means they're not meeting their wives' needs, doesn't it?

If you wait until you're 100% sure that you're meeting your wife's needs to assert yourself, you'll probably wait a long time. Especially if her happiness is the measure. There just aren't many troubled marriages with happy partners.

You've got to man up for yourself. Unless you're an a--hole, generosity will flow naturally from your new place of power.


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## AFEH

Hicks said:


> a) and b) are Male Logic. You are not dealing with a male you are dealing with a female. Something wrong with the state of the home environment starts out as a small breeze that blows by her. Then it goes in her head where it gets swirled round and round until it becomes a tornado. The tornado is let out with a plan to obliterate all leaves from her planet (her house). So you should not be logically trying to get her to see that the leaves should be raked down hill. This particular battle is won when you recognize that it's important to keep your wife's mind from creating tornadoes out of your basic chores. *If she his asking you to do it, you are too late. * You let the sex blocking tornado brew around in her head.
> 
> You can't successfully "Man Up" if you are not minding your side of the street. You must be good at meeting her needs, the manning up is just a reminder to her to put things in context. Like, if you like your life then show me the proper respect.
> 
> And yes, you have to realize that there is work on your part to maintain your wife in a mode where she is feeling sexual. This is the critical mistake men make thinking "She should just be into me". You have to take actoins that seemingly have nothing to do with sex to keep her sexual. And any time she expresses a need you should take note of it. With the leaves thing she is telling you she wants a nicely maintained yard. This is a normal need for a wife. Pay attention. If you think a woman who worries about the state of the home / her life / cleanliness of your house in order to be sexual is "not the woman for me", then very few women will be the right woman for you. It's when you realize that things that today seem unimportant to you and having nothing to do with sex are actually tied to sex that you will start wanting to do them.
> 
> Now if your wife is truly saying "We need to XXX" then your response is to talk about what parts she is going to do and what parts you are going to do. If she is saying it condescendingly or using the word We need to to mean You Need to... Then you say, Dear are you really saying "I need to XXX?". I don't appreciate being ordered around.
> 
> 
> 
> Her line of thinking is true. She is not fitness testing you. She wants to do these other things instead of having sex. She wants to be with her family instead of being alone with you having sex. The question is what can you do to make her want to be with you instead of her family. What do they give her that you don't? Meeting her needs is a critical part of your equation.


Yes! A lot of it is about being Proactive instead of Reactive. Being Proactive is about Leadership. Leadership is about being Proactive. Proactives lead, Reactives follow OR put a spanner in the works. It’s the proactive leader who takes the initiative. It’s the consultative (essentially seeks out needs), influential proactive leader who gets others to help him/her to get to where everyone wants to be!

If you are a Leader it can at times be exceedingly frustrating trying to get a passive, reactive Follower to “do something”. If you are a Follower Leaders can at times be right obnoxious PITAs.



But Leaders will always be on their front foot and Followers will always be on their back foot (Fitness Tested!).



So basically you have two choices. Become a Consultative, Influential, Proactive Leader or stay a Passive, Reactive Follower and HELP the Leader!




For me that leave at 5 pm or 8 pm is an absolute no brainer. Leave at 8 pm! What on earth is 3 hours out of a lifetime? Sorry but for me your argument is seriously pedantic, hair splitting nit picking.


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## Acorn

AFEH said:


> For me that leave at 5 pm or 8 pm is an absolute no brainer. Leave at 8 pm! What on earth is 3 hours out of a lifetime? Sorry but for me your argument is seriously pedantic, hair splitting nit picking.


Perhaps it is. That said, my kids have not seen a holiday with my side of the family in many years - my wife insists on her side and the families are too far away to visit both. My kids have not seen a family vacation without the in-laws since they have been born - they now think this is normal I'm sure. The last time I took my wife to a family event on my side, she literally fell asleep on them as they were talking, and they had only been there 2 hours. It was mortifying.

I would GLADLY stay 3 extra hours if I thought she was putting in equal effort/sacrifice/whatever with me, but she doesn't. It is not fair, it ticks me off, and I don't know how to fix it. 

With all this in mind, if I truly am hair splitting I am open to suggestions to fix it - please! I do love her and if there was a way we could be equals in this relationship, I'd be very happy.

I am not kidding about the control thing, either. Someone else's post on the board referenced her first dancing lesson as a couple. I have had exactly one lesson - was a gift to my wife. We left early and never went back. The reason? The instructor attempted to teach me how to lead, and W insisted that she lead instead. When the instructor and I looked at her funny, she went along with it for a few minutes, kept trying to take the lead back, and she never wanted to return. It is not easy to influence her!


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## AFEH

Acorn said:


> Perhaps it is. That said, my kids have not seen a holiday with my side of the family in many years - my wife insists on her side and the families are too far away to visit both. My kids have not seen a family vacation without the in-laws since they have been born - they now think this is normal I'm sure. The last time I took my wife to a family event on my side, she literally fell asleep on them as they were talking, and they had only been there 2 hours. It was mortifying.
> 
> I would GLADLY stay 3 extra hours if I thought she was putting in equal effort/sacrifice/whatever with me, but she doesn't. It is not fair, it ticks me off, and I don't know how to fix it.
> 
> With all this in mind, if I truly am hair splitting I am open to suggestions to fix it - please! I do love her and if there was a way we could be equals in this relationship, I'd be very happy.
> 
> I am not kidding about the control thing, either. Someone else's post on the board referenced her first dancing lesson as a couple. I have had exactly one lesson - was a gift to my wife. We left early and never went back. The reason? The instructor attempted to teach me how to lead, and W insisted that she lead instead. When the instructor and I looked at her funny, she went along with it for a few minutes, kept trying to take the lead back, and she never wanted to return. It is not easy to influence her!


I’m sorry Acorn but I really don’t understand this stuff. I just don’t understand your mentality at all. For example there is no way my parents wouldn’t get to spend time with my sons and no way my sons wouldn’t get to spend time with their grandparents! Just no way at all whatsoever. I would just make the arrangements with them and go. If my wife wanted to go along fine, if she didn’t, fine.


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## Acorn

Maybe you are right AFEH, who knows. We've been arguing over scheduling issues for so many years I don't even know what is normal any more.

I married my wife hoping that we could share our worlds (and our families) equally and perhaps that simply is not my wife's expectation. I'd like a system where the kids and I visit her family one week, but the next week we visit mine. And that if it is important for one of us to leave a little early on a given day, we make it important for both of us.

She is perfectly content to visit hers every week with the kids. She is out all day, I don't see her, and she thinks she's doing me a favor.

I did not want to get the kids involved in this but maybe it is inevitable - I should demand the kids every other week to visit my family, and she can go to her family event alone if she wants to.


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## Hicks

Ok... Couple of points.

Why does your wife want to spend alot of time with her family? There are 2 possible reasons. 1. They are meeting some emotional needs. 2. She values their presence in her life and does not want to risk rejection. OR some combination of 1 and 2. The reason she does not want to be with your family is she does not get #1 from them and does not care about #2. Your goal is to reposition yourself where her family currently is using #1 and #2. 

The attitude that you will stay 3 more hours IF she reciprocates is the wrong wrong way to think. The way you want to think is that you personally will create the outcomes you want. Agreeing with AFEH if you want balance between the time spent with your family, then you personally create it.

A thought process that says "she's just very controlling" is not helpful to you. It may be the case, but it is not a productive thought process for you. A thought process that says all people will take as much as they are given and that her actions / control is a function of what I personally allow to happen is a way more productive thought process.


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## AFEH

But Acorn you don’t “demand”. You never do that, demand, insist, command, order, require, stipulate etc. You have absolutely no control over your wife! Who on earth has control over anybody? Police, Prison Guards, Judges …. 

And if you do “demand” what if your wife just says No! What are you going to do then?

Look you just make the arrangements with your parents to visit, tell your wife and tell her you’d like her to join you but it’s not essential.


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## Acorn

Hicks said:


> Ok... Couple of points.
> 
> Why does your wife want to spend alot of time with her family? There are 2 possible reasons. 1. They are meeting some emotional needs. 2. She values their presence in her life and does not want to risk rejection. OR some combination of 1 and 2. The reason she does not want to be with your family is she does not get #1 from them and does not care about #2. Your goal is to reposition yourself where her family currently is using #1 and #2.
> 
> The attitude that you will stay 3 more hours IF she reciprocates is the wrong wrong way to think. The way you want to think is that you personally will create the outcomes you want. Agreeing with AFEH if you want balance between the time spent with your family, then you personally create it.
> 
> A thought process that says "she's just very controlling" is not helpful to you. It may be the case, but it is not a productive thought process for you. A thought process that says all people will take as much as they are given and that her actions / control is a function of what I personally allow to happen is a way more productive thought process.


So if I'm understanding you, this builds on the other posts.

Meet her needs for a time, show her I'm truly busting my butt trying to learn and listen, eliminate the leaving early stuff, eliminate the attempts to even out the score...

After a few months of this, or whatever time is needed for her to admit she is happier, I pull her aside and tell her that I feel like I am losing touch with my family, so I will be taking the kids to visit them every other week. She can come if she wants.

Hopefully this balances it out but if we continue to be two ships passing in the night, just tell her this is not what I envisioned a marriage to be, and I'm thinking of leaving.

Am I getting this or am I off?


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## AFEH

Acorn you sound to me that you are afraid of your wife? If you are, it’s no way for a man to live.


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## AFEH

Why on earth are you trying to “even out the score”? What score are you keeping?


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## Acorn

AFEH said:


> But Acorn you don’t “demand”. You never do that, demand, insist, command, order, require, stipulate etc. You have absolutely no control over your wife! Who on earth has control over anybody? Police, Prison Guards, Judges ….
> 
> And if you do “demand” what if your wife just says No! What are you going to do then?
> 
> Look you just make the arrangements with your parents to visit, tell your wife and tell her you’d like her to join you but it’s not essential.


And what of the kids?

Wife wants the kids every week to go to her family events. Now I'm rocking the boat asking ("demanding") that the kids come with me every other week.

This will not end well without some sort of understanding on her part.


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## Acorn

AFEH said:


> Why on earth are you trying to “even out the score”? What score are you keeping?


Number of weekends she takes the kids to visit her family: 52
Number of weekends I take the kids to visit mine: 0

And yes, to some degree, I am very afraid of what effect it would have on my kids if I were to demand/insist/ask/whatever for a 26-26 split as opposed to 52-0. I do not want them to be pawns in what is basically a power struggle.


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## Acorn

Argh, I'm getting very riled up, sorry.

My kids should have just as much right to see my parents as hers. This should be non-negotiable in my eyes. This is a dealbreaker and if I can't get a reasonable compromise out of her I am willing to divorce over this issue.

I have put up with her demands for quite a while, and whether it means I was laid back or just a doormat, I can live with it. But these are my kids were are talking about now. If I just stand by and do nothing, I am sending the message to my kids that my parents are less important than hers. And I won't do that.

And yeah, I admit, I don't want a divorce and it frightens me.


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## Hicks

Acorn said:


> Meet her needs for a time, show her I'm truly busting my butt trying to learn and listen, eliminate the leaving early stuff, eliminate the attempts to even out the score...
> 
> After a few months of this, or whatever time is needed for her to admit she is happier, I pull her aside and tell her that I feel like I am losing touch with my family, so I will be taking the kids to visit them every other week. She can come if she wants.
> 
> Hopefully this balances it out but if we continue to be two ships passing in the night, just tell her this is not what I envisioned a marriage to be, and I'm thinking of leaving.
> 
> Am I getting this or am I off?


Close. Since your wife already said ""you have been meeting my requirements for an ideal marriage now better than you ever have...thank you." I don't think you have to focus on this for a period of months.

Rather than demands, you have to start making policies. The policies are generic to marriage and not specific to your marriage. "In a marriage, there needs to be balance between time spent as a family unit, time spent with one set of in-laws, and time spent with the other set of in laws". And why is this your policy: It's best for your collective marital happiness and it's best for your children to have connection with their extended family on both sides. Her argument of "I don't like your family" becomes very week in comparison to your argument. This idea of policys extends to all aspects of your marriage.


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## Halien

Acorn said:


> Perhaps it is. That said, my kids have not seen a holiday with my side of the family in many years - my wife insists on her side and the families are too far away to visit both. My kids have not seen a family vacation without the in-laws since they have been born - they now think this is normal I'm sure. The last time I took my wife to a family event on my side, she literally fell asleep on them as they were talking, and they had only been there 2 hours. It was mortifying.


This is understandible, Acorn. I had to make a point of telling my family that the were not welcome to sponge off every vacation I scheduled with my wife and kids in the early years. However, you are relaying a deeply entrenched power struggle here, in my opinion. What happens if manning up cannot get you to a marriage that looks more like a partnership than one where she is looking down on you from above, where she feels completely entitled to this assumption of you being someone that she can judge and control?

She's accepted this imbalance as the status quo for so long that it is her reality, to a degree. At some point, do you think that it will come down to a frank assessment of whether she will choose to work on the marriage if you tell her that continuing in this mode is no longer an option? Not suggesting that the manning up shouldn't be the plan for the coming months, but I just wonder if there is a chance that this will be more or less a waiting game for her - waiting for you to regain your senses and revert back to the way it was. If you approach her with love, letting her know that you want this vision of a great marriage with her, will she push you out of her life if you tell her that you cannot continue this way, or will it wake her up to the new reality?

Maybe I'm misreading signals, but it seems like you are asking yourself if manning up will get you to where you want the relationship to be.


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## Acorn

Halien said:


> This is understandible, Acorn. I had to make a point of telling my family that the were not welcome to sponge off every vacation I scheduled with my wife and kids in the early years. However, you are relaying a deeply entrenched power struggle here, in my opinion. What happens if manning up cannot get you to a marriage that looks more like a partnership than one where she is looking down on you from above, where she feels completely entitled to this assumption of you being someone that she can judge and control?
> 
> She's accepted this imbalance as the status quo for so long that it is her reality, to a degree. At some point, do you think that it will come down to a frank assessment of whether she will choose to work on the marriage if you tell her that continuing in this mode is no longer an option? Not suggesting that the manning up shouldn't be the plan for the coming months, but I just wonder if there is a chance that this will be more or less a waiting game for her - waiting for you to regain your senses and revert back to the way it was. If you approach her with love, letting her know that you want this vision of a great marriage with her, will she push you out of her life if you tell her that you cannot continue this way, or will it wake her up to the new reality?
> 
> Maybe I'm misreading signals, but it seems like you are asking yourself if manning up will get you to where you want the relationship to be.


No, you are not misreading, you are exactly right. Scarily so.

I am scared I will do all this work and discover she still doesn't want to change with me. And that I will lose my kids and everything I worked for the last decade. All because one day I woke up and swallowed the red pill instead of the blue one.


----------



## Acorn

Hicks said:


> Close. Since your wife already said ""you have been meeting my requirements for an ideal marriage now better than you ever have...thank you." I don't think you have to focus on this for a period of months.
> 
> Rather than demands, you have to start making policies. The policies are generic to marriage and not specific to your marriage. "In a marriage, there needs to be balance between time spent as a family unit, time spent with one set of in-laws, and time spent with the other set of in laws". And why is this your policy: It's best for your collective marital happiness and it's best for your children to have connection with their extended family on both sides. Her argument of "I don't like your family" becomes very week in comparison to your argument. This idea of policys extends to all aspects of your marriage.


I like this idea. Thank you. That sounds a whole lot more rational than the stuff I've been going on about this morning.


----------



## AFEH

Acorn said:


> Number of weekends she takes the kids to visit her family: 52
> Number of weekends I take the kids to visit mine: 0


Acorn demanding you want to take your kids to see your parents 26 times a year because that’s half the amount is not the way to do it! You are being REACTIVE and not PROACTIVE! You are being reactive to the agenda your wife has set! Create your own agenda that is FAIR to both of you.

Look. Do you really want to take your kids to see your family 26 times in a year? Is that REALLY what you want to do? How about other activities with them, walking, ball games, museums etc. etc? Sit down and think about what you want to do with your children. Once a month to see your parents, surely that’s enough? A ball game or different activity, just you and your kids once a month? Plan it AND THEN DO IT! If your wife wants to go along with you fine, if she doesn’t that’s fine too!

And do not forget to do things for yourself at weekends! Wife want to take kids to see parents? Fine let her take them and spend time by yourself or with others do an activity YOU ENJOY.


----------



## turnera

Why don't you just tell your wife that she's welcome to go see her parents, but THIS weekend, you are going to do something special with the kids, so they won't be going with her?

And then just GO. Pack the kids up, start driving, and find a cheap motel to stay at and have a blast. Wake her up.


----------



## bosley

Well I strongly believe and live by it that any relationships needs communication both ways...regardless good or bad. At least to have each other knows what each likes or dislikes. Even to friends as well.

I came across an article of how to maintain a family with a busy working life...and is inspiring. It talks about the 3Cs...Companion, Confidante and Counsel.

e2i.com.sg :: Chasing 3 Cs


----------



## Acorn

I think I am understanding what you are saying. Thanks for being patient with me. I have been doing pretty well at home with being verbally assertive and emoting a lot less, I think I need to work on executing the assertiveness. I am completely focused on her actions right now and I need to be more focused on my own plans. I'll give this a go for a while and see how it goes. 

Thanks again, I really appreciate all the help...this is the hardest thing I've ever tried to do and yet the gains I'm seeing make it extremely rewarding all at the same time.


----------



## AFEH

Acorn sometimes we forget where we end and others begin. We lose ourselves in other people, especially our spouse. In long term marriages it’s like they are in our head with us. Like we are co-joined in the very deepest parts of our psyche. Instead of thinking for one, ourselves, we’re thinking for two all the time (and of course there’s the children). It’s almost like we’ve lost our psychological and emotional independence. So we need to regain our SENSE OF SELF.

And so we need to separate ourselves a bit from our partner, emotionally and psychologically. For me the number one way of doing this is with personal boundaries. We, who we are, stop at our psychological and emotional boundary points. And all we can “control” (demand lol) is what lies within our boundaries but for sure we can influence what goes on “outside” of ourselves.

It’s what we value and what we believe in that defines who we are, the type of man that we are. Around those values and beliefs are our rules and boundaries we used to preserve them, keep them intact. For example if we value our personal credibility and we believe in what that value brings to us we behave with rules and boundaries such that we never do anything to compromise our credibility. And out of the combination of all those comes our behaviour, how we interact with the outside world.

If you want to get to know yourself better read Awareness (Anthony de Mello) he’ll set you off on a journey of self discovery. And maybe read some books on personal boundaries.

Don’t worry about the conflict here (well with me anyway), sometimes it’s needed to move forward.


----------



## Enchantment

Go read a success story - and take note of what this man learned: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/27426-what-ive-learned-past-year-good-news-story.html

I'm not sure if you chose your user name for any particular reason, but it does have some symbolism that is appropriate, I think:

"_Storms make the oak grow deeper roots_." ~ George Herbert 
"_Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut, that held its ground_." ~ David Icke 
"_Mighty oaks from little acorns grow_".

Keep growing and holding your ground, Acorn!

I am rooting for you to get to the point where you can change your user name from "Acorn" to "Mighty Oak". 

God Bless.


----------



## ManDup

Hicks said:


> I spent a little time reading your other posts.
> 
> My main recommendation is to meet her needs, in her love lanugage for a specific period of time. If you are meeting her needs well, she will move into a happier state. This is guaranteed. Then, when she is in a happier state and you are sure she is in a happier state to a point where a threat to end the marriage will be considered a "loss" for her, that is when you start asserting your needs to be met. Don't try go have her meet your needs until you are doing a good job meeting hers. Your needs: Sex, putting marriage relationship FIRST in her life etc.
> 
> But the absolute key is making sure 100% you are meeting her needs. You will know you are doing it when she becomes a happy person. There is no other standard. It has nothing to do with what she says to you. It's very easy to screw up acts of service. If you are not meeting her act of service proactively and with enthusiasm (think about how you want Sex from her) then you are not meeting her need really at all in fact you are doing the opposite. You are telling her your need is not important to me, so I will take the easiest possible approach in fulfilling it (wait till you complain, and then do a substandard job). No different that the wife who "agrees" to have sex but lays there or complains about it.


I don't know. This generic advice one way or the other is almost sure to be wrong. There is most definitely a balance required between setting your own boundaries and meeting her needs. But these are not either-or, they are both. So you should pass fitness tests (and anything that smells irrational is a fitness test, such as the leaves - I mean, why not put leaves into an existing forest full of leaves? irrational), but you should also address needs. The way to deal with irrationality is mainly to ignore it or make gentle fun of it, not to rationalize/argue with it.

The ideal relationship has both partners able to express their needs outright without worrying about offending the other partner or losing them. Then the partners agree to meet those needs out of love, or to find win-win situations where needs are met without boundaries being crossed. In any negotiation the win-win is the ideal/only workable solution.

Of course, no relationship is ideal, so fitness tests must be dealt with occasionally, and withdrawn partners (often men) must be dealt with occasionally, etc.


----------



## ManDup

Hicks said:


> That is a fitness test. She's looking for you to back down on what a true marriage is vs stick to your principles. Express confidence that she is capable of meeting your needs, just as she was capable of learning to meet the needs of the children as their mother.
> 
> 
> 
> You are 100% on the right track. Do not ever forget that this is the standard you hold her to.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, you are 100% right on here. The only thing is manning up is never about minimizing your wife's needs. It's about recognizing that since you ARE meeting her needs, you don't allow yourself to be treated badly by her.


Bingo. From your earlier posts I thought you might be missing the point, but you nailed it. Alpha+Beta in the words of marriedmansexlife.com. The alpha is I demand to be treated with respect (and I will enforce that boundary up to the point of divorce) but beta is that I will treat you right and provide for a family and not run around on you.


----------



## ManDup

Acorn said:


> Perhaps it is. That said, my kids have not seen a holiday with my side of the family in many years - my wife insists on her side and the families are too far away to visit both. My kids have not seen a family vacation without the in-laws since they have been born - they now think this is normal I'm sure. The last time I took my wife to a family event on my side, she literally fell asleep on them as they were talking, and they had only been there 2 hours. It was mortifying.
> 
> I would GLADLY stay 3 extra hours if I thought she was putting in equal effort/sacrifice/whatever with me, but she doesn't. It is not fair, it ticks me off, and I don't know how to fix it.
> 
> With all this in mind, if I truly am hair splitting I am open to suggestions to fix it - please! I do love her and if there was a way we could be equals in this relationship, I'd be very happy.


Part of manning up is that you just don't take it. You know it's wrong, but your kids actually don't. That is very bad. With my ex, she was the only one that mattered. You matter too, man. You are an important person. You don't want to teach your sons that they don't matter, or your daughters that only they matter. But that is exactly what you are teaching them. It's that important: don't stand for it. 

You absolutely have to schedule trips to your family immediately. The very next one. You take the kids, non-negotiable. If she wants to come she should be encouraged to, but her not coming does not change the trip. If she continues in this vein, here's what I mean by non-negotiable: divorce her.



Acorn said:


> I am not kidding about the control thing, either. Someone else's post on the board referenced her first dancing lesson as a couple. I have had exactly one lesson - was a gift to my wife. We left early and never went back. The reason? The instructor attempted to teach me how to lead, and W insisted that she lead instead. When the instructor and I looked at her funny, she went along with it for a few minutes, kept trying to take the lead back, and she never wanted to return. It is not easy to influence her!


Put your foot down and keep it down. Don't allow her to take it back.


----------



## MEM2020

Yes. I agree with this in terms of strategy. I would however suggest a different "tactic" with regard to the marriage ending. And that is - you do what is fair and stick with it. YOU don't bring up divorce. When she does and she likely will at some point, you just tell her you understand and accept that she is not agreeable to a mutually respectful marriage and you are ok with her ending it. But make HER do that - because it will give you the moral high ground with friends, family and kids. 




ManDup said:


> Part of manning up is that you just don't take it. You know it's wrong, but your kids actually don't. That is very bad. With my ex, she was the only one that mattered. You matter too, man. You are an important person. You don't want to teach your sons that they don't matter, or your daughters that only they matter. But that is exactly what you are teaching them. It's that important: don't stand for it.
> 
> You absolutely have to schedule trips to your family immediately. The very next one. You take the kids, non-negotiable. If she wants to come she should be encouraged to, but her not coming does not change the trip. If she continues in this vein, here's what I mean by non-negotiable: divorce her.
> 
> 
> 
> Put your foot down and keep it down. Don't allow her to take it back.


----------



## Acorn

An update and embarrassing question:

Well, my update is almost entirely positive. I am noticing huge huge changes.

I emailed her proactively: "The deck hasn't been stained in a while, and I don't want the water to damage it over the winter so I'm staining it this weekend. If you could pick up the stain on your way home someday this week (it is on her way), that'd be helpful. Thanks." The stain was delivered the next day, I stained the deck, she was grateful.

I talked to her: "I'm taking the kids next Saturday to visit my family." She stunningly said, OK. (She is not going, of course.)

She has in the last few days been calling me "wonderful", saying it's "the happiest I've ever been", "I love the changes in you."

Most important, though, is that I feel very much in control and very good about myself. I need to keep this up. I don't know that I'm passing all the fitness tests - still having trouble with recognizing them - but I'm finding that whatever I'm doing is having a good effect.

Interestingly, there has been a total flip flop on the topic of marriage counseling. She has missed about 4 straight MC sessions to do things with her friends and family. I would go alone. Well, I told her point blank that I have canceled the MC sessions because they were unlikely to be effective with all her missed sessions, and if we weren't in it together, I could decide what was best for me without them. Her response - wow. She wants to start them back up. Now SHE is asking ME for the talks about the relationship. It is a polar opposite of the former dynamic.

Now, my embarrassing question, mainly because it seems very unmasculine to say this...

Through all this, it feels like she is still not making any changes or even doing any introspection on her end. She is happy now, so she feels like things are getting better. Sex seems to be back on the table now, in a very much "You did the deck so I'll give you your goodies" type way which is NOT what I want. And, after all this detaching and manning up... I'm having a lot of trouble getting the desire to have sex with her, and I'm not buying that suddenly she has rediscovered her libido and desire for me after almost a decade in a week. I don't know if it is resentment or what, but it is just that sex has been her trump card for so flippin' long that I feel like I admit weakness if I take her up on it. I am suspicious.

Is this normal? I guess my question is, how do you get past years of conditioning that your desire for sex is somehow weak, unattractive, and undesired in the eyes of your wife? And yes, it seems weird to me too - I finally seem to be getting what I want just to find out I don't seem to want it any more.


----------



## turnera

You have to understand that a woman is SO much different than a man in this area. She (typically) wants/needs a STRONG man to 'take' her. The further down the doormat drain you went, the less and less attractive you become and less she wanted to touch you. 

Now that you're starting to show that you're a 'real man,' you look good again. This isn't something BAD about her; it's just human nature, and I'm sure she isn't even aware of it. She's just plain attracted to you again. 

That said, if you think it will make you feel used to go ahead with it, you're perfectly within your rights to say 'you know, I've spent so long being unfulfilled, I'm just not ready to be that close to you yet. I keep expecting you to hurt me again. So I need time to know that you really care about this marriage. I need at least a few more MC sessions to see if we even gel any more.'

Now THAT will get the fire under her to carry on with MC - to prove to you that she's not the problem. But what's important is that you go because, once you do (if your MC is worth her salt), the MC will start holding her accountable and open her eyes to what her role is.


----------



## turnera

Great job, by the way!


----------



## MEM2020

Acorn,
You have a choice before you. A difficult choice that only you can make. You can either accept that you created half the broken sexual dynamic with your W by being overly emotional and needy and overly warm or you can blame her. 

You don't like having to control your emotions. And that is ok. It is also true that your marriage will not survive two emotional adults. So either you stay the course, start having sex and pretend the old you is dead. Or you start talking about your fears and feelings, kill her desire for you and likely kill the marriage. 

And gentle sex is likely a bust with your W. She seems a want a low emotion/high dominance interaction pattern. 

Finally things start to go your way and you "don't like it" because of the path required to get there. I have news for you. She isn't going to change. She isn't offering sex because you did the deck. She is turned on because you did this alpha "I am doing X, if you want to select the color you may" followed by you DOING x. 

For 50,000 generations the males who got to mate acted a certain way. The women who mated with THOSE males got protected and their children got protected. Are you REALLY going to try to swim upstream against 50,000 generations of evolution?





Acorn said:


> An update and embarrassing question:
> 
> Well, my update is almost entirely positive. I am noticing huge huge changes.
> 
> I emailed her proactively: "The deck hasn't been stained in a while, and I don't want the water to damage it over the winter so I'm staining it this weekend. If you could pick up the stain on your way home someday this week (it is on her way), that'd be helpful. Thanks." The stain was delivered the next day, I stained the deck, she was grateful.
> 
> I talked to her: "I'm taking the kids next Saturday to visit my family." She stunningly said, OK. (She is not going, of course.)
> 
> She has in the last few days been calling me "wonderful", saying it's "the happiest I've ever been", "I love the changes in you."
> 
> Most important, though, is that I feel very much in control and very good about myself. I need to keep this up. I don't know that I'm passing all the fitness tests - still having trouble with recognizing them - but I'm finding that whatever I'm doing is having a good effect.
> 
> Interestingly, there has been a total flip flop on the topic of marriage counseling. She has missed about 4 straight MC sessions to do things with her friends and family. I would go alone. Well, I told her point blank that I have canceled the MC sessions because they were unlikely to be effective with all her missed sessions, and if we weren't in it together, I could decide what was best for me without them. Her response - wow. She wants to start them back up. Now SHE is asking ME for the talks about the relationship. It is a polar opposite of the former dynamic.
> 
> Now, my embarrassing question, mainly because it seems very unmasculine to say this...
> 
> Through all this, it feels like she is still not making any changes or even doing any introspection on her end. She is happy now, so she feels like things are getting better. Sex seems to be back on the table now, in a very much "You did the deck so I'll give you your goodies" type way which is NOT what I want. And, after all this detaching and manning up... I'm having a lot of trouble getting the desire to have sex with her, and I'm not buying that suddenly she has rediscovered her libido and desire for me after almost a decade in a week. I don't know if it is resentment or what, but it is just that sex has been her trump card for so flippin' long that I feel like I admit weakness if I take her up on it. I am suspicious.
> 
> Is this normal? I guess my question is, how do you get past years of conditioning that your desire for sex is somehow weak, unattractive, and undesired in the eyes of your wife? And yes, it seems weird to me too - I finally seem to be getting what I want just to find out I don't seem to want it any more.


----------



## Acorn

MEM11363 said:


> Acorn,
> You have a choice before you. A difficult choice that only you can make. You can either accept that you created half the broken sexual dynamic with your W by being overly emotional and needy and overly warm or you can blame her.
> 
> You don't like having to control your emotions. And that is ok. It is also true that your marriage will not survive two emotional adults. So either you stay the course, start having sex and pretend the old you is dead. Or you start talking about your fears and feelings, kill her desire for you and likely kill the marriage.
> 
> And gentle sex is likely a bust with your W. She seems a want a low emotion/high dominance interaction pattern.
> 
> Finally things start to go your way and you "don't like it" because of the path required to get there. I have news for you. She isn't going to change. She isn't offering sex because you did the deck. She is turned on because you did this alpha "I am doing X, if you want to select the color you may" followed by you DOING x.
> 
> For 50,000 generations the males who got to mate acted a certain way. The women who mated with THOSE males got protected and their children got protected. Are you REALLY going to try to swim upstream against 50,000 generations of evolution?


I choose to take ownership of my half, and I choose to forgive my wife for the past as best I can.

That being said, I do not trust her.

Over the course of my "doormat" period, she has done a number of things which I would not tolerate now. I have discovered a secret email which was set up to be the target of her new POF account. I have seen browser histories of her visiting and posting on hook up sites. She has "mistakenly" siphoned off about $5000 from our bank account to put in her personal account. She has allowed herself to become morbidly obese though we had talked about how much health was an issue for me. And she came dangerously close to quitting her normal job and taking a position with far less security and salary without any discussion on a quest to make her happy.

Yes, I'm embarrassed that I put up with all that. She told me the hookup stuff was just "to see what's out there", and the money was a mistake, and she would have talked to me about the job if the salary offer was reasonable in her eyes. I didn't realize it until recently how much of a doormat I've been. I just kept wanting to believe that these were mistakes and just a phase. And I'll even go so far as to say that a lot of these behaviors may have been caused by my doormat status. I'm at a point where I am caring less and less about who is at fault and just want a little security and clarity about the future.

All that being said, I'd forgive the whole thing if she'd do something to show that she's going to be the "new wife" too... some counseling, some apologies, some understanding that what she did was not acceptable. (It is very hard to fight this stuff after the fact.)

But it's hard to just hop back in bed and pretend nothing happened. It is not a factor of not liking the way women work - it is that I fell for the sex=love thing once and I am cautious to do it again. I get she wanted a real husband that she was attracted to. Well, I deserve a real wife that I'm attracted to as well, don't I?

(I have not posted a lot of this laundry before - was hoping to avoid it - but there it is. Yes, I have been a doormat and I'm trying to change. Every day that goes by, I realize and understand it more.)


----------



## Acorn

turnera said:


> That said, if you think it will make you feel used to go ahead with it, you're perfectly within your rights to say 'you know, I've spent so long being unfulfilled, I'm just not ready to be that close to you yet. I keep expecting you to hurt me again. So I need time to know that you really care about this marriage. I need at least a few more MC sessions to see if we even gel any more.'
> 
> Now THAT will get the fire under her to carry on with MC - to prove to you that she's not the problem. But what's important is that you go because, once you do (if your MC is worth her salt), the MC will start holding her accountable and open her eyes to what her role is.


Thanks Turnera, I think I'm going to do something like this.

I feel like the more I man up, the more we aren't going to gel. But I feel like I need to give her a little time to see the "new me" so she can see what she's losing.


----------



## MEM2020

Acorn,
That is ALL totally fair. All of it. 

You start driving - my guess is she will start following. Ask her nicely to go for a walk with you - exercise is best ramped up gradually. 

When she declines - and she will you have a decision to make. What is the consequence going to be? You can't force her to do anything. But you can let her know through your own behavior what will happen if she does not respect your priorities.



Acorn said:


> I choose to take ownership of my half, and I choose to forgive my wife for the past as best I can.
> 
> That being said, I do not trust her.
> 
> Over the course of my "doormat" period, she has done a number of things which I would not tolerate now. I have discovered a secret email which was set up to be the target of her new POF account. I have seen browser histories of her visiting and posting on hook up sites. She has "mistakenly" siphoned off about $5000 from our bank account to put in her personal account. She has allowed herself to become morbidly obese though we had talked about how much health was an issue for me. And she came dangerously close to quitting her normal job and taking a position with far less security and salary without any discussion on a quest to make her happy.
> 
> Yes, I'm embarrassed that I put up with all that. She told me the hookup stuff was just "to see what's out there", and the money was a mistake, and she would have talked to me about the job if the salary offer was reasonable in her eyes. I didn't realize it until recently how much of a doormat I've been. I just kept wanting to believe that these were mistakes and just a phase. And I'll even go so far as to say that a lot of these behaviors may have been caused by my doormat status. I'm at a point where I am caring less and less about who is at fault and just want a little security and clarity about the future.
> 
> All that being said, I'd forgive the whole thing if she'd do something to show that she's going to be the "new wife" too... some counseling, some apologies, some understanding that what she did was not acceptable. (It is very hard to fight this stuff after the fact.)
> 
> But it's hard to just hop back in bed and pretend nothing happened. It is not a factor of not liking the way women work - it is that I fell for the sex=love thing once and I am cautious to do it again. I get she wanted a real husband that she was attracted to. Well, I deserve a real wife that I'm attracted to as well, don't I?
> 
> (I have not posted a lot of this laundry before - was hoping to avoid it - but there it is. Yes, I have been a doormat and I'm trying to change. Every day that goes by, I realize and understand it more.)


----------



## Enchantment

Acorn said:


> Now, my embarrassing question, mainly because it seems very unmasculine to say this...
> 
> Through all this, it feels like she is still not making any changes or even doing any introspection on her end. She is happy now, so she feels like things are getting better. Sex seems to be back on the table now, in a very much "You did the deck so I'll give you your goodies" type way which is NOT what I want. And, after all this detaching and manning up... I'm having a lot of trouble getting the desire to have sex with her, and I'm not buying that suddenly she has rediscovered her libido and desire for me after almost a decade in a week. I don't know if it is resentment or what, but it is just that sex has been her trump card for so flippin' long that I feel like I admit weakness if I take her up on it. I am suspicious.
> 
> Is this normal? I guess my question is, how do you get past years of conditioning that your desire for sex is somehow weak, unattractive, and undesired in the eyes of your wife? And yes, it seems weird to me too - I finally seem to be getting what I want just to find out I don't seem to want it any more.


Seems like your feelings are normal to me. What do they say - "Rome wasn't built in a day." I'm sure that true intimacy and desire between you two will need to be fed just like a budding flame - it will need to be tended as time goes on. And it's entirely normal for you to want your wife to DESIRE to have sex with you and not to do it as a duty or a reward.

How to get past years of conditioning? By de-conditioning - by telling yourself and ACTING every single day that you are desirable and having sex with your wife is a normal, desirable, and manly (read STRONG) thing. Lather, rinse, repeat. Lather, rinse, repeat. Keep saying it enough and putting those thoughts to actions (by keeping 'manned up'). I say take control of the sexual relationship that you want to have with your wife - help her navigate through it - take the helm. I think you are starting to make that happen right now in the journey you are on.

Wishing you continued success.


----------



## turnera

Acorn said:


> I feel like the more I man up, the more we aren't going to gel. But I feel like I need to give her a little time to see the "new me" so she can see what she's losing.


I don't see that at all. I think she'll admire you and want you more.

I agree with the walking. If she's morbidly obese, maybe that factors into why you're not into SF with her at the moment. Get her to do something with you; tie it into SF if you want to.


----------



## Acorn

MEM11363 said:


> Acorn,
> That is ALL totally fair. All of it.
> 
> You start driving - my guess is she will start following. Ask her nicely to go for a walk with you - exercise is best ramped up gradually.
> 
> When she declines - and she will you have a decision to make. What is the consequence going to be? You can't force her to do anything. But you can let her know through your own behavior what will happen if she does not respect your priorities.


I think the only real consequence I really have in my situation is to separate. I have too much of a history of backing down to make any threat of consequence mean anything.

I think I need to tell myself that if it comes to it, the weight issue is not the reason I am separating, but rather the overall lack of respect or acceptance of my priorities within the marriage. Just a really hard thing to do, especially with kids involved. She has been so happy lately, so cheerful. Won't be a lot of fun.

I'm going to give this until the end of the month before making any decisions. At that point, I'll have 3 more weeks to observe and it'll mark about 3 months since she started telling me she is happy in the marriage. 

In the meantime, I'll keep working on my end. I asked her if there were any projects that needed to be done around the house this weekend. She said, no, you've been doing a lot, take a weekend off. I was somehow expecting that answer so I told her the projects I proactively identified and would be doing if the weather holds. She was happy. Maybe I am getting better at this game.


----------



## Acorn

Enchantment said:


> Seems like your feelings are normal to me. What do they say - "Rome wasn't built in a day." I'm sure that true intimacy and desire between you two will need to be fed just like a budding flame - it will need to be tended as time goes on. And it's entirely normal for you to want your wife to DESIRE to have sex with you and not to do it as a duty or a reward.
> 
> How to get past years of conditioning? By de-conditioning - by telling yourself and ACTING every single day that you are desirable and having sex with your wife is a normal, desirable, and manly (read STRONG) thing. Lather, rinse, repeat. Lather, rinse, repeat. Keep saying it enough and putting those thoughts to actions (by keeping 'manned up'). I say take control of the sexual relationship that you want to have with your wife - help her navigate through it - take the helm. I think you are starting to make that happen right now in the journey you are on.
> 
> Wishing you continued success.


Thanks Enchantment, I am going to try this.

A while back, in an attempt to influence my wife to lose weight, I went out and lost a healthy amount of weight... got in the best shape of my life and was well below pre-marriage weight. I invited her many times on the journey, but there were always reasons why she wouldn't join me.

The sad part was I had my thinking wrong. I was doing it for her, and when it didn't work, I ended up losing my way and gained the weight back. 

I am really getting this man-up stuff - at least I think I am. And I'm back in the gym, getting back down to that weight. But I'm doing it for me. I'm doing it because a healthy body is what I want to give my sexual partner and it's also what I want out of a partner and I'm willing to lead and get us there. I know exercise makes me feel more sexual/attractive, and I think it would help her too. And if it doesn't help, well, hey...I'm better for it anyway.

Baby steps I guess.

And yes, I would like to someday be Mighty Oak.


----------



## Hicks

You are doing great!

Regarding sex being back on the table.... this is merely proof that the concept of manning up works to create a sexual response in your wife. The whole point of it is that she will never use logic and introspection and think about the last 10 years. The main thing she will use is an emotional feeling at a moment in time. This is why you are told to Man UP and not told to have deep detailed logical discussions with your wife about sex. So, believe wholehartedly that her feelings are REAL.

Now, if she is outright acting like she is throwing you a bone, you just use the Man Up principles and don't take bones. Force her to treat you and the sexual side of marriage with the importance that you require.

And I totally agree with Enchantment's post.... Don't expect your wife to have some kind of epiphany... Just put the thoughts of confidence in your head. Put yourself in the drivers seat that if she does anything you don't like you come down hard on her. This is not a one time event but a way of daily living. And, you are now the judge of whether you stay and tolerate the situtuation or move on. But, give it time, since you are just now starting to see the results.


----------



## Halien

Acorn, I can identify closely with your feelings, even though our situations are different. My wife suffered from long bouts of depression, but was otherwise a pretty critical person. For years, she didn't understand the damage she did by constantly telling me how broken our marriage was. Now that she has committed to a radical change, she still tends to approach every issue as though she is the one who has been hurt. I understand the feelings, but it takes a while to undo 20 years of resentment. At times, I just cannot tolerate the feeling that she expects me to do the bulk of the work.

Add to this her feelings of failure, rarely communicated to me, have driven her to a food addiction. We are a family that always took health very seriously. I'm about 10% body fat, and work out with weights for 30 years, but she outweighs me. People tell me that I should look inside of her to find the sexual attraction, but that image of her that I always clung to is gone. I feel like a callous jerk for feeling that there is no hope in that department.

My fear for you is that she may take a similar approach as my wife. The work you've done on yourself might only be viewed as something that she expected all along, but not something that would make her see the need to reach within herself and make a change. I'm hoping that you get that.


----------



## AFEH

Acorn said:


> Is this normal? I guess my question is, how do you get past years of conditioning that your desire for sex is somehow weak, unattractive, and undesired in the eyes of your wife? And yes, it seems weird to me too - I finally seem to be getting what I want just to find out I don't seem to want it any more.


Ha! That’s a codependent talking. Codependency is a term used for those living with an alcoholic. The codependent tries to get the alcoholic to change (stop drinking) but when the alcoholic does eventually stop drinking, the codependent doesn’t like what they see plus their reason for being in the relationship has come to an end.

You wanted sex from your wife for the past ten years and for a decade she refused you (to the point you were begging for it?). Now that she’s offering you sex (in a way you didn’t want it, as a “reward” for being a good boy) you have suddenly woken up to the fact that your wife is seriously obese AND YOU DON’T FANCY HER!

It’s all perfectly “normal”.


----------



## AFEH

Acorn said:


> I talked to her: "I'm taking the kids next Saturday to visit my family." She stunningly said, OK. (She is not going, of course.)


Ha!

*“HE WHO DARES WINS”*



Famous SAS Motto


----------



## turnera

Physical Attraction is usually one of a man's top 5 Emotional Needs. There's nothing to be ashamed of for wanting a good looking wife.

Acorn, have you ever read Hold On To Your N.U.T.S.? It's an awesome book for learning how to balance pleasing your wife and taking care of yourself. Easy read. And the website it comes from is cool, too: Help for Men, Mentor for Men, Men's Groups, Relationship Advice, Life Coach


----------



## Sawney Beane

AFEH said:


> Ha!
> 
> *“HE WHO DARES WINS”*
> 
> 
> 
> Famous SAS Motto


Wrong.

"Who Dares Wins". 

What you put was the motto of Delboy Trotter in Only Fools and Horses...


----------



## AFEH

Sawney Beane said:


> Wrong.
> 
> "Who Dares Wins".
> 
> What you put was the motto of Delboy Trotter in Only Fools and Horses...


Bless you SB. Knew I could rely on you to core rect me. One day I may even see a postive, helpfulle post from you but then again you could just keep poking away as you do.


----------



## Sawney Beane

AFEH said:


> Bless you SB. Knew I could rely on you to core rect me. One day I may even see a postive, helpfulle post from you but then again you could just keep poking away as you do.


If you mean agree sycophantically with whatever you say, don't hold your breath.


----------



## chasethislight

Acorn said:


> I'm having a lot of trouble getting the desire to have sex with her, and I'm not buying that suddenly she has rediscovered her libido and desire for me after almost a decade in a week. I don't know if it is resentment or what, but it is just that sex has been her trump card for so flippin' long that I feel like I admit weakness if I take her up on it. I am suspicious.
> 
> Is this normal? I guess my question is, how do you get past years of conditioning that your desire for sex is somehow weak, unattractive, and undesired in the eyes of your wife? And yes, it seems weird to me too - I finally seem to be getting what I want just to find out I don't seem to want it any more.


When you find the answer to this, please let me know since this is the exact same thing i'm struggling with as well.. I've read this whole topic and you're doing great! Keep it up and remember to live for yourself!


----------



## Acorn

This week has been a bit less intense than the last few in a number of ways. I've ordered the N.U.T.S. book and the Awakenings book... actually I've been reading so many posts in other threads, there should be a sticky thread for good books.  I've been keeping up with the cardio and have joined a small gym group with a trainer who completely kicked my butt last week, making it difficult to move let alone do a bunch of physical chores.

What I have noticed is that my wife is busting at the seams for me to tell her how I feel. It is odd to watch. At first I thought, WOW, this manning up stuff is completely changing her, but then I've realized that she must have liked/gotten used to me telling her my thoughts/feelings on a regular basis. She must truly feel the detachment.

I slipped a little bit yesterday, we were chatting on the phone and I don't remember the specifics but she pushed an issue and I got a little annoyed and it led to a 30 min conversation about everything we thought was wrong with the marriage. We push each other's buttons now without even realizing we are doing it.

I tried to recover and it led to an interesting night. I canceled my plans and asked her if we could go out for dinner with the kids. By the time she got home, she had arranged babysitting and we had a private dinner, much to my shock. We had some small talk, and then she asked something to the effect of, "Can you tell my why you aren't happy?" This would normally lead to that 30 min conversation that we hate - I'd open up a little, she'd get defensive, she'd blameshift, and we're off...

Quick aside, one of the things I really wish she'd do is go to IC. I tried to apply the principles I'm learning and I said, "Let's talk about that another time. Let me tell you about some of the things I'm learning about myself in IC." I told her about a number of things I've been learning there (and also here) about ways I am trying to improve myself and bad habits I'm trying to break. For example, "I've realized I tend to run away from problems as a defense instead of dealing with them. I understand now why this is a terrible strategy. I'm working on improving."

I also told her I was working out, getting a trainer, working intently on attractiveness, posture, etc., to try to be the best I could be physically. Told her this is probably my big motivation for the next few months anyway. She said, she did not care about those things. I told her that they were important to me, that I wanted to look my best for her and for myself. I told her if the female equiv. of those is attractive to me, the least I could do is be as attractive to her. She seemed to really think about that... like dots were connecting.

Finally, she asked what was the worst thing in our marriage. I took a chance and was honest with her. A while back, I told her that I had met a woman at work and was worried that I was developing feelings toward her. I asked that we schedule a few extra days/nights together so I could get her out of my head and focus on the two of us. Her reply - "I'm not worried! Go spend time with her if you want." I admitted to her that since then I haven't really felt the same about our marriage. 

She wanted me to talk more, but I switched the conversation to more fun things. It was a good night after that.

It felt good to talk to her on a more mature level, but more importantly, I don't think I've talked to her as openly and honestly as I did in a long time. On the whole, I felt like it was a very mature, very needed conversation but it seems to go against a lot of the man up principles here. Wondering how I did?


----------



## turnera

Excellent! You led the conversation, you let her in, you stayed on course and said what you needed to, and you got in a few truth darts that she can carry back to her cave and munch on.

The only thing I saw was when she said 'those things don't matter to me' (excellent that you said they matter to YOU!), you could have added 'what DOES matter to you?'


----------



## Acorn

Thanks! 

To her, sex is good if body parts touched and an orgasm occurred. That's it. No fetishes, no variety, physical shape does not matter, no noise, no unnecessary movement, no light, no build up... nothing. Very task oriented.

You'd think we were still trying to have kids. I say that half jokingly, but I almost wonder if it is possible the wiring of her wanting to have kids so bad got "stuck" on reproduction mode and never switched back.


----------



## AFEH

Strange things do happen in life and in marriages people most certainly become institutionalised.

It can take a lot for a person to step outside their comfort zone of years perhaps decades of institutionalised behaviour. Mostly it creeps up on us and we don’t even know it’s happened.

It’s normally the pursuit of pleasure that gets us to move outside our comfort zone and towards where we want to be but the avoidance of pain does it just as well and probably a heck of a lot quicker.


----------



## Conrad

Acorn,

You hit upon one of the "rules" - perhaps unintentionally.

It's fine to be honest about this stuff WHEN SHE ASKS.

But, not before.

Keep it up.



Acorn said:


> This week has been a bit less intense than the last few in a number of ways. I've ordered the N.U.T.S. book and the Awakenings book... actually I've been reading so many posts in other threads, there should be a sticky thread for good books.  I've been keeping up with the cardio and have joined a small gym group with a trainer who completely kicked my butt last week, making it difficult to move let alone do a bunch of physical chores.
> 
> What I have noticed is that my wife is busting at the seams for me to tell her how I feel. It is odd to watch. At first I thought, WOW, this manning up stuff is completely changing her, but then I've realized that she must have liked/gotten used to me telling her my thoughts/feelings on a regular basis. She must truly feel the detachment.
> 
> I slipped a little bit yesterday, we were chatting on the phone and I don't remember the specifics but she pushed an issue and I got a little annoyed and it led to a 30 min conversation about everything we thought was wrong with the marriage. We push each other's buttons now without even realizing we are doing it.
> 
> I tried to recover and it led to an interesting night. I canceled my plans and asked her if we could go out for dinner with the kids. By the time she got home, she had arranged babysitting and we had a private dinner, much to my shock. We had some small talk, and then she asked something to the effect of, "Can you tell my why you aren't happy?" This would normally lead to that 30 min conversation that we hate - I'd open up a little, she'd get defensive, she'd blameshift, and we're off...
> 
> Quick aside, one of the things I really wish she'd do is go to IC. I tried to apply the principles I'm learning and I said, "Let's talk about that another time. Let me tell you about some of the things I'm learning about myself in IC." I told her about a number of things I've been learning there (and also here) about ways I am trying to improve myself and bad habits I'm trying to break. For example, "I've realized I tend to run away from problems as a defense instead of dealing with them. I understand now why this is a terrible strategy. I'm working on improving."
> 
> I also told her I was working out, getting a trainer, working intently on attractiveness, posture, etc., to try to be the best I could be physically. Told her this is probably my big motivation for the next few months anyway. She said, she did not care about those things. I told her that they were important to me, that I wanted to look my best for her and for myself. I told her if the female equiv. of those is attractive to me, the least I could do is be as attractive to her. She seemed to really think about that... like dots were connecting.
> 
> Finally, she asked what was the worst thing in our marriage. I took a chance and was honest with her. A while back, I told her that I had met a woman at work and was worried that I was developing feelings toward her. I asked that we schedule a few extra days/nights together so I could get her out of my head and focus on the two of us. Her reply - "I'm not worried! Go spend time with her if you want." I admitted to her that since then I haven't really felt the same about our marriage.
> 
> She wanted me to talk more, but I switched the conversation to more fun things. It was a good night after that.
> 
> It felt good to talk to her on a more mature level, but more importantly, I don't think I've talked to her as openly and honestly as I did in a long time. On the whole, I felt like it was a very mature, very needed conversation but it seems to go against a lot of the man up principles here. Wondering how I did?


----------



## turnera

Acorn said:


> Thanks!
> 
> To her, sex is good if body parts touched and an orgasm occurred. That's it. No fetishes, no variety, physical shape does not matter, no noise, no unnecessary movement, no light, no build up... nothing. Very task oriented.
> 
> You'd think we were still trying to have kids. I say that half jokingly, but I almost wonder if it is possible the wiring of her wanting to have kids so bad got "stuck" on reproduction mode and never switched back.


What are you doing to change that? Shake things up. Find a romantic, remote place where you can get the passion back, with a blanket, a picnic basket and some wine...

Get creative. Change it up so she's not stuck in the bedroom thinking 'here we go again.' There's a great book for that, although I hear it's out of print; you'll have to find a used one - but it's invitations, where you set up a special evening and change things up. Very effective!


----------



## Acorn

turnera said:


> What are you doing to change that? Shake things up. Find a romantic, remote place where you can get the passion back, with a blanket, a picnic basket and some wine...
> 
> Get creative. Change it up so she's not stuck in the bedroom thinking 'here we go again.' There's a great book for that, although I hear it's out of print; you'll have to find a used one - but it's invitations, where you set up a special evening and change things up. Very effective!


Actually, I admit that I am the one thinking "here we go again". 

I have always been the one delivering the passion... the rose pedals to the bathtub, the picnic, the scavenger hunt, etc. On the flip side, she is seemingly anxious about even the most tame things - taking a bikini picture of herself for me, holding her wrists together, even just being seductive. It has been this way since the kids were born.

It is like she is afraid. Which is very odd because she was one of the most uninhibited people I know when we were dating. And for whatever faults I have, I have never once threatened her in any way to make her afraid of me.

She has told me recently that she will never again say "no" to me. She followed that up by saying that it scares her to death that she will want to say no and now can't. It makes me feel like I'm raping my wife when I initiate anything with her.


----------



## Acorn

Conrad said:


> Acorn,
> 
> You hit upon one of the "rules" - perhaps unintentionally.
> 
> It's fine to be honest about this stuff WHEN SHE ASKS.
> 
> But, not before.
> 
> Keep it up.


Thanks - maybe that was the difference. She was definitely a lot more attentive to my words, probably because she asked.


----------



## Conrad

Stay with it.

She will ask again... and again.... and again.

What was previously impossible can become possible.

I've lived this. Trust me.

Read MEM's thermostat thread until you have it memorized.




Acorn said:


> Thanks - maybe that was the difference. She was definitely a lot more attentive to my words, probably because she asked.


----------



## AFEH

Acorn said:


> It makes me feel like I'm raping my wife when I initiate anything with her.


I got to the point at the end of my marriage where I felt I was abusing my wife. You need to be very careful with all this Acorn. Your marriage may well be doing you a great deal of emotional and psychological damage.


----------



## turnera

Ask her to go to a sex counselor with you. Or at least a marriage counselor.


----------



## Acorn

AFEH said:


> I got to the point at the end of my marriage where I felt I was abusing my wife. You need to be very careful with all this Acorn. Your marriage may well be doing you a great deal of emotional and psychological damage.


I wish I had the tools the evaluate this more. My friends have told me similar.

I really don't think she is trying to be mean or anything... if anything she is just simply emotionally not there a lot of the time.


----------



## Acorn

turnera said:


> Ask her to go to a sex counselor with you. Or at least a marriage counselor.


We have been going to an MC for a while now. My wife does not open up in these things very much.

I canceled the sessions and she has re-opened them. I will be curious to know what we are going to talk about.

Her attitude in most of the sessions has been akin to: I made mistakes in the past, I don't want to dwell on them, how can we move forward. We never actually figure out what went wrong and what we are going to do differently - e.g. she'll say "I neglected you in the past. I will never say no to you again." - and after saying that, in her eyes, we should just hop in bed now and start having crazy passionate sex, and she wants to know why this isn't happening and why I'm not so into it. Like I've had this magic button for years and just haven't pressed it until now. Frustrating.


----------



## Acorn

Conrad said:


> Stay with it.
> 
> She will ask again... and again.... and again.
> 
> What was previously impossible can become possible.
> 
> I've lived this. Trust me.
> 
> Read MEM's thermostat thread until you have it memorized.


I will keep trying, and probably keep asking lots of questions, lol.

This manning up idea is probably my last shot. Gonna make it a good one.


----------



## Conrad

Has she done any individual sessions?



Acorn said:


> We have been going to an MC for a while now. My wife does not open up in these things very much.
> 
> I canceled the sessions and she has re-opened them. I will be curious to know what we are going to talk about.
> 
> Her attitude in most of the sessions has been akin to: I made mistakes in the past, I don't want to dwell on them, how can we move forward. We never actually figure out what went wrong and what we are going to do differently - e.g. she'll say "I neglected you in the past. I will never say no to you again." - and after saying that, in her eyes, we should just hop in bed now and start having crazy passionate sex, and she wants to know why this isn't happening and why I'm not so into it. Like I've had this magic button for years and just haven't pressed it until now. Frustrating.


----------



## Acorn

Conrad said:


> Has she done any individual sessions?


She went to handful of sessions, after which the IC told her unless she was willing to open up more, there was no point in her coming back. The IC told her that she would be anticipating the questions and trying to lead the IC around, instead of the reverse.

She has translated this to mean that she has no need for IC.

So, basically no.


----------



## Conrad

So, when she asks, and asks, and asks about the relationship, what do you think you should suggest?

She will listen.



Acorn said:


> She went to handful of sessions, after which the IC told her unless she was willing to open up more, there was no point in her coming back. The IC told her that she would be anticipating the questions and trying to lead the IC around, instead of the reverse.
> 
> She has translated this to mean that she has no need for IC.
> 
> So, basically no.


----------



## Acorn

Conrad said:


> So, when she asks, and asks, and asks about the relationship, what do you think you should suggest?
> 
> She will listen.


I have tried a number of times to get her to return to IC with a better attitude, but you are quite right - not since the manning-up began.

I will suggest that she return and give her a starting point - maybe just starting with "Why would you give your blessing to your spouse to see a woman he was developing a crush on?" and "Why would you say to your spouse, 'I will never say no to you.' and then worry about your inability to say 'no'."

Open to suggestions if there is a better way to approach the topic of course.


----------



## AFEH

Acorn said:


> I wish I had the tools the evaluate this more. My friends have told me similar.
> 
> I really don't think she is trying to be mean or anything... if anything she is just simply emotionally not there a lot of the time.


What would you feel if you really did rape your wife or another woman? Guilt? Remorse? Ashamed? Mortified? Regret? Sorrow?

Do you really feel those emotions as you “make love” with/to your wife? It’s the opposite of what you should be feeling.

Don’t blame yourself for it. Your wife has an immense role to play in your sex life, she has responsibilities just as much as you do for the physical, psychological, biological and emotional enjoyment of one another.


----------



## Acorn

AFEH said:


> What would you feel if you really did rape your wife or another woman? Guilt? Remorse? Ashamed? Mortified? Regret? Sorrow?
> 
> Do you really feel those emotions as you “make love” with/to your wife? It’s the opposite of what you should be feeling.
> 
> Don’t blame yourself for it. Your wife has an immense role to play in your sex life, she has responsibilities just as much as you do for the physical, psychological, biological and emotional enjoyment of one another.


Yes, I do. Guilt and shame mostly. Just out of curiosity, when you felt like you were abusing your wife, were you ever able to get past that? I wouldn't even know where to start.


----------



## Conrad

Do not do this.

Never script how counseling should go for another.

Simply tell her the things that bothered you - direct, open, passionless, and honest. You can mention those very things. Do not tell her to go there to talk about them. That becomes parent-child. We all know where that ends up.

And, if you are the man she wants, she will do what is necessary - once she sees you are indeed 'the man'.



Acorn said:


> I have tried a number of times to get her to return to IC with a better attitude, but you are quite right - not since the manning-up began.
> 
> I will suggest that she return and give her a starting point - maybe just starting with "Why would you give your blessing to your spouse to see a woman he was developing a crush on?" and "Why would you say to your spouse, 'I will never say no to you.' and then worry about your inability to say 'no'."
> 
> Open to suggestions if there is a better way to approach the topic of course.


----------



## AFEH

Acorn said:


> Yes, I do. Guilt and shame mostly. Just out of curiosity, when you felt like you were abusing your wife, were you ever able to get past that? I wouldn't even know where to start.


If you feel like you are raping your wife yet you still have sex with her then you are “getting past that”, surely? But you seem to be in some denial about it. I think you’d be much better off talking to a psychologist about why you are prepared to have sex with a woman you feel you are raping. I don’t think you’ve cottoned onto the damage you may be doing yourself.


----------



## turnera

Acorn said:


> We have been going to an MC for a while now. My wife does not open up in these things very much.
> 
> I canceled the sessions and she has re-opened them. I will be curious to know what we are going to talk about.
> 
> Her attitude in most of the sessions has been akin to: I made mistakes in the past, I don't want to dwell on them, how can we move forward. We never actually figure out what went wrong and what we are going to do differently - e.g. she'll say "I neglected you in the past. I will never say no to you again." - and after saying that, in her eyes, we should just hop in bed now and start having crazy passionate sex, and she wants to know why this isn't happening and why I'm not so into it. Like I've had this magic button for years and just haven't pressed it until now. Frustrating.


Print this out and READ IT out loud to the MC. Then see what happens.


----------



## Acorn

AFEH said:


> If you feel like you are raping your wife yet you still have sex with her then you are “getting past that”, surely? But you seem to be in some denial about it. I think you’d be much better off talking to a psychologist about why you are prepared to have sex with a woman you feel you are raping. I don’t think you’ve cottoned onto the damage you may be doing yourself.


I don't feel like I'm assaulting my wife. 

I have, however, been called perverted, a sex addict, a porn addict, unreasonable, and myriad other things because I wanted sex more than once a month. I feel very guilty even bringing up the topic. Now my wife will not allow herself to say no, thinking this is the requirement to stay in the marriage. It all seems so ridiculous for something that is supposed to be enjoyable.

And I wouldn't say I'm prepared to rape my wife... one of the problems is that I am having real trouble getting the desire to have sex. One of the main reasons being the above.


----------



## turnera

The main reason you HAVE to talk to the MC about it.


----------



## PeaceTrain

I been reading this post for a while and only could complete first two pages and last page. I will do the rest soon.

I am reading this forum for a while since I am also in the same boat where I been doing all a man could do and above and beyond, wife just not into it. I will explain my problem later since I don't want to hijack this one.

What I am really confused about is the definition of manning up. It is all over the map. Meeting all her needs, but again not meeting all her needs if the needs are not reasonable. You need to understand that I am not willing to meet her needs because it is not reasonable. And when I am not meeting those non-reasonable needs, we are falling apart even more. The only time we are getting close when I am doing everything she wants me to do, reasonable or un-reasonable.

I am supposed to provide, then again I have to provide her way what will trigger me spending more than what I earn when I earn a lot, let say 150K/year. You follow. Nice house, nice cars, no debt, no expensive hobby from my site. Not enough. Don't want to even check the expenses. I have to pay bill, I have to earn and I have to fulfill her financial needs. 

My point is manning up may lead to go apart and you have to be ready to follow thru and marriage may end with this technique. 

Do you agree? I have tried manning up, 30 days goes by no talk, no intimacy, sleeping in different rooms. I am the one has to go make truce. This is simply because I said firm "No" to some unreasonable request.

People say "Communicate". I tried that as well. How can I? There hasn't been a single incident when she could carry on a conversation on an disagreement for more than 3 minutes without loosing her temper. When that happens, crying shouting, whole bunch of other name calling followed by indefinite amount of days of no-talk time. My fault? I just wanted to communicate that gently I can't do this because it is not feasible. Its her way or she looses temper. Huge anger issue. I just don't engage any more.

Anyway u guys carry on. Let me know if you guys find better definition of manning up.


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## AFEH

Originally Posted by Acorn 
It makes me feel like I'm raping my wife when I initiate anything with her.

And then ….





Acorn said:


> I don't feel like I'm assaulting my wife.
> 
> I have, however, been called perverted, a sex addict, a porn addict, unreasonable, and myriad other things because I wanted sex more than once a month. I feel very guilty even bringing up the topic. Now my wife will not allow herself to say no, thinking this is the requirement to stay in the marriage. It all seems so ridiculous for something that is supposed to be enjoyable.
> 
> And I wouldn't say I'm prepared to rape my wife... one of the problems is that I am having real trouble getting the desire to have sex. One of the main reasons being the above.


You do seem confused about how you feel. In a lot of ways we are what we feel. We are our emotions because our emotions are our (perhaps unique) responses to things that happen to us. To deny our emotions is to deny ourselves. To deny our emotions is to deny the subjective, the unique way in which we as an individual experience our world. It took me a very long time to “get” this.

You seem to be saying that your wife has abused and neglected you in such a way that you feel when you initiate sex you are raping her. And then you deny that feeling your wife gives you, probably because you are a man who would never even dream of raping or in any other way abuse a woman, let alone your wife. And I think you said your wife put on a lot of weight. It is totally normal that you no longer desire her! It sounds like she's done everything to ensure that you don't!

Yet she wants to keep you. You need to know why.


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## Acorn

I think (with everyone's help) I am starting to see what you are saying. I am not being honest with myself. Might as well start now.

- I feel like my wife's behavior has at times been neglectful and abusive and now I am projecting the blame of that on to myself. I really do feel guilty when I sleep with my wife. I do not want to sleep with my wife because I don't feel very good about myself when I do. I haven't in a long long time.
- I do not want to hurt my wife so I forgo initiating. I have turned to self-care and porn and such. And contrary to what I know to be true - this behavior probably hurts marriages - I actually feel like I've been doing my wife and I a favor...taking my selfish needs underground. Why would I be OK with an arrangement that I know to be bad, yet I justify in our case to be good?
- I have manned up enough to realize that I need a satisfactory sexual relationship in my life if at all possible. This would include feeling good about sex and getting rid of underground outlets like porn. I need to listen to myself and realize my wants in this area are pretty tame and reasonable.
- I do not want to have an affair and hurt my wife and kids.
- I do not want to divorce and hurt my wife and kids. It goes against my moral code and would require a level of strength that I do not know if I have.
- My wife is supposed to be my closest ally, and I have been very honest and up front with her many times, but she is not willing to involve herself in understanding the past and getting to the truth. Yet, she is petrified I will leave her. Yet, she will not take suggestions to try IC, getting in shape, which are the things I have suggested in the past as ways to help solve the problems so no one will want to leave. I do not know why she pushes me away, and I do not understand why she hangs on so tight if our sexual relationship repulses her so much.

Alright, off to the MC I go...MC had a cancellation for tonight. I just wanted to write it out once in case I start justifying things again. What a mess.

Thanks, I'll update whenever there's something noteworthy to type out. I appreciate everyone's help. TAM's members generosity with their thoughts and time is amazing.


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## Acorn

PeaceTrain said:


> My point is manning up may lead to go apart and you have to be ready to follow thru and marriage may end with this technique.


I am coming to this conclusion myself.

For years I had been approaching the problem as "What can I do to save this marriage?" and slowly as more knowledgeable people chime in on my situation, I start to realize the question is, "What can I do that is best for me?" - which may lead to leaving the marriage. 

Very anti-climatic when you do everything you can to save a marriage and, as part of the journey, you realize the marriage may not be worth saving.


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## jayde

Acorn said:


> I am coming to this conclusion myself.
> 
> For years I had been approaching the problem as "What can I do to save this marriage?" and slowly as more knowledgeable people chime in on my situation, I start to realize the question is, "What can I do that is best for me?" - which may lead to leaving the marriage.


I read the first post and thought it was my life. And this post is part of what happened this morning. I too, would avoid any sort of conflict (even, when I thought things were completely illogical/irrational) to avoid 'the consequences.' But in a 'discussion this morning' I told my wife that I am calling her on whatever I see fit, without fear of consequences. If those consequences are a "cold shoulder, curt responses, no sex - whatever it is you want to dole out, so be it. But I am not being quiet anymore - to save your ass or pretend to save mine. It's not how I want to live my life, nor conduct my marriage. I'm happy to hear if you disagree, but I won't listen to BS as a means for you to always be right or avoid your insecurities. I will be happy regardless of the outcome."

Incidentally, it was she who first brought up separation and potential divorce several months ago - which scared the crap out of me and put me into 'create no waves to save the marriage mode.' And that sucked.

Good luck.


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## turnera

Acorn said:


> *I have been very honest* and up front with her many times, but she is not willing to involve herself in understanding the past and getting to the truth. Yet, *she is petrified I will leave her*. *Yet, she will not take suggestions to try IC, getting in shape*, which are the things I have suggested in the past as ways to help solve the problems so no one will want to leave.


Unfortunately, this is where you're going to have to put your foot down. You have the right to expect her to do what it takes. And if she fears you will leave her, LET HER fear it. Make it clear you cannot stay in an unfulfilling marriage for another 40 years - you WON'T. And I'm telling you, you SHOULDN'T. 

I know a man on another forum who's been in your marriage for 20 years and he is a shell of a man. Hates himself more than everyone else combined. KNOWS he should do something but he's now so defeated - simply by her unwillingness to participate - that he can't even make a simple phone call to get help. You have no reason to accept this, nor to turn into this man. 

Here's the biggest secret - when you get fed up enough that you WILL walk, she will know. And, barring deep psychological scarring, she WILL get off her bum and do the work.


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## Conrad

This is not something of which to be afraid.

It's vital information.




Acorn said:


> I am coming to this conclusion myself.
> 
> For years I had been approaching the problem as "What can I do to save this marriage?" and slowly as more knowledgeable people chime in on my situation, I start to realize the question is, "What can I do that is best for me?" - which may lead to leaving the marriage.
> 
> Very anti-climatic when you do everything you can to save a marriage and, as part of the journey, you realize the marriage may not be worth saving.


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## AFEH

Acorn said:


> I think (with everyone's help) I am starting to see what you are saying. I am not being honest with myself. Might as well start now.
> 
> - I feel like my wife's behavior has at times been neglectful and abusive and now I am projecting the blame of that on to myself. I really do feel guilty when I sleep with my wife. I do not want to sleep with my wife because I don't feel very good about myself when I do. I haven't in a long long time.
> - I do not want to hurt my wife so I forgo initiating. I have turned to self-care and porn and such. And contrary to what I know to be true - this behavior probably hurts marriages - I actually feel like I've been doing my wife and I a favor...taking my selfish needs underground. Why would I be OK with an arrangement that I know to be bad, yet I justify in our case to be good?
> - I have manned up enough to realize that I need a satisfactory sexual relationship in my life if at all possible. This would include feeling good about sex and getting rid of underground outlets like porn. I need to listen to myself and realize my wants in this area are pretty tame and reasonable.
> - I do not want to have an affair and hurt my wife and kids.
> - I do not want to divorce and hurt my wife and kids. It goes against my moral code and would require a level of strength that I do not know if I have.
> - My wife is supposed to be my closest ally, and I have been very honest and up front with her many times, but she is not willing to involve herself in understanding the past and getting to the truth. Yet, she is petrified I will leave her. Yet, she will not take suggestions to try IC, getting in shape, which are the things I have suggested in the past as ways to help solve the problems so no one will want to leave. I do not know why she pushes me away, and I do not understand why she hangs on so tight if our sexual relationship repulses her so much.
> 
> Alright, off to the MC I go...MC had a cancellation for tonight. I just wanted to write it out once in case I start justifying things again. What a mess.
> 
> Thanks, I'll update whenever there's something noteworthy to type out. I appreciate everyone's help. TAM's members generosity with their thoughts and time is amazing.


Well done. I can hear you waking up all the way over here in Portugal. You have but one life. Know what you like and love and go for it.


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## IanIronwood

turnera said:


> Unfortunately, this is where you're going to have to put your foot down. You have the right to expect her to do what it takes. And if she fears you will leave her, LET HER fear it. Make it clear you cannot stay in an unfulfilling marriage for another 40 years - you WON'T. And I'm telling you, you SHOULDN'T.
> 
> I know a man on another forum who's been in your marriage for 20 years and he is a shell of a man. Hates himself more than everyone else combined. KNOWS he should do something but he's now so defeated - simply by her unwillingness to participate - that he can't even make a simple phone call to get help. You have no reason to accept this, nor to turn into this man.
> 
> Here's the biggest secret - when you get fed up enough that you WILL walk, she will know. And, barring deep psychological scarring, she WILL get off her bum and do the work.



Oh, mais ouis! 

Her fear of a failed marriage and trying to make it on her own, without the security of a partner, is perhaps your greatest ally. If she is that afraid, then you have some leverage. Don't be afraid to use it, and don't feel guilty when you do. She's clearly abrogated her responsibility for saving the marriage . . . you shouldn't feel guilty for trying. Let her fear. Talk openly about how easy it is for a man to cheat these days . . . discuss openly the idea that you are not infinitely patient . . . let her face the fact that her sexual capital is likely far less than yours, on the open market.

Maybe that will scare her into listening, at least.


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## AFEH

turnera said:


> Here's the biggest secret - when you get fed up enough that you WILL walk, she will know. And, barring deep psychological scarring, she WILL get off her bum and do the work.


There's a lot of truth there. But it will be too late by then for her to make any difference whatsoever to Acorn's final judgements and decisions. He''ll be off to pastures new.


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## AFEH

IanIronwood said:


> Oh, mais ouis!
> 
> Her fear of a failed marriage and trying to make it on her own, without the security of a partner, is perhaps your greatest ally. If she is that afraid, then you have some leverage. Don't be afraid to use it, and don't feel guilty when you do. She's clearly abrogated her responsibility for saving the marriage . . . you shouldn't feel guilty for trying. Let her fear. Talk openly about how easy it is for a man to cheat these days . . . discuss openly the idea that you are not infinitely patient . . . let her face the fact that her sexual capital is likely far less than yours, on the open market.
> 
> Maybe that will scare her into listening, at least.


Me? I'm first choice. No back-up or default plan am I. I'm not one to be with out of fear. I am one to be with out of love. I hope Acorn's the same.


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## turnera

In a perfect world. But if that's what it takes to get her into the counseling office, where the MC will hopefully help BOTH of them reach a good place, then it's worth it.


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## AFEH

turnera said:


> In a perfect world. But if that's what it takes to get her into the counseling office, where the MC will hopefully help BOTH of them reach a good place, then it's worth it.


Totally agree.


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## Acorn

MC was awful.

Started out OK, and I actually did a good job in a reasonably calm manner spelling out what I wrote down. Went over like a lead balloon. "What do you want me to do about that?", W said. I told her that I thought joining me on my quest to get healthier and/or going to IC would be my suggestion. MC interjected with "You can't make someone go to IC." MC also seemed to feel like I didn't have any "real" solutions to my dilemma... "Can you tell your wife specifically what she can do to make things better?".

MC then re-hashed that she thinks my W is touched with ADHD and her emotional intelligence is under-developed. For instance, W says in counseling, "Since you are having trouble enjoying sex, will you still service me or does this mean I should just masturbate?" (I'm not kidding.) She says our dynamic is very similar to other couples with the same issue. MC tried to explain that since my W continues to refuse to take the idea of ADHD seriously, the only real way for us to co-exist is for her to try to understand that I have a deeper awareness of emotions than her, and that I'm just going to have to let a lot of things go so she won't feel so picked on.

After the session, I was polite as possible, and this conversation took place:

Me: We agreed at the end of the year, unless we both voted to extend our marriage, we'd try separating. Do you mind if we take the vote now?
W: I don't think we've made enough progress. You don't look happy. I guess my vote is we separate.
Me: OK, then. I will start looking for apartments tomorrow.
W: Well, am I wrong?
Me: How can your vote be wrong?
W: I mean, you don't look happy.
Me: I'm not happy. I did a lot of work to better myself and save this thing and you voted to separate.
W: Well I'm basing my vote on the fact that you aren't happier with me.
Me: That seems like a silly reason to base your vote on, especially considering you haven't asked me how I feel, but ok.
W: If you are happier with me, then maybe I would vote different.
Me: I just hope you understand that a year from now, when we are recovered a bit from this, you'll realize you voted to separate based on your understanding of my happiness, which you never even asked me. And further, you'll realize you still haven't told me how YOU felt, and I still have no idea how you feel about us at all.

Few minutes after that, she decided that we were in the thick of a passionate discussion and that it would be better served if we re-voted after a night sleep. This morning, she told me I was the best, gave me about 50 ILYs, and is talking about going out to dinner tonight. It's like last night never happened.

I know I'm laying into my wife a little hard in this post... she really is a wonderful person in so many ways. It's just that this stuff is driving me crazy. At least I'm starting to be able to detach a little and see the dynamic going on. She is unintentionally doing to me what Spock does to McCoy in their verbal sparring matches, LOL. Take that to the logical conclusion that by the time my manning up is complete and I'm having more conversations like the one above, we are going to both be Spock. That sounds like a real boring marriage.

Thank goodness for Trek analogies. Any comments are helpful. Thank you.


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## Enchantment

Acorn said:


> She is unintentionally doing to me what Spock does to McCoy in their verbal sparring matches, LOL. Take that to the logical conclusion that by the time my manning up is complete and I'm having more conversations like the one above, we are going to both be Spock. That sounds like a real boring marriage.
> 
> Thank goodness for Trek analogies. Any comments are helpful. Thank you.


I don't know that I have any helpful comments. You and your wife have a dynamic that is outside my experience.

BUT, I think you are supposed to end up as Kirk when you do manning up (okay, he was a little too arrogant, let's go with the next Star Trek and go for Picard.) 

And I think that it's a journey that doesn't just end - it keeps on going. It becomes a way of life. I sincerely hope that your wife will decide to go on the journey with you, but from your dialogue she sounds a bit manipulative - pushing you to the edge, maybe not expecting you to take the bait, and then pulling back and everything is fine. Don't know - just an observation.

I'm not sure I like your counsellor either. If your wife has ADHD, there are treatments for that - has she been properly evaluated - is she on any treatment? AND I think that in a marriage, especially one with problems, BOTH people have got to be willing to work and MATURE. You don't get a free ticket to get out of doing that work.

Best wishes.


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## Acorn

Enchantment said:


> I'm not sure I like your counsellor either. If your wife has ADHD, there are treatments for that - has she been properly evaluated - is she on any treatment? AND I think that in a marriage, especially one with problems, BOTH people have got to be willing to work and MATURE. You don't get a free ticket to get out of doing that work.


She does not believe she has ADHD. She took a 5 minute test and declared herself ADHD-free. She gets very angry when those letters are even mentioned.

There is little to no hope of this improving as it stands right now.


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## turnera

What you described sounded more like autistic then ADHD.

This confused me, though. You said:
You don't look happy. I guess my vote is we separate.

Then when SHE voted to separate you said:
I just hope you understand that a year from now, when we are recovered a bit from this, you'll realize you voted to separate based on your understanding of my happiness, which you never even asked me. 

YOU said that SHE didn't look happy, so YOU voted to separate. Isn't that the same thing?


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## Acorn

turnera said:


> What you described sounded more like autistic then ADHD.
> 
> This confused me, though. You said:
> You don't look happy. I guess my vote is we separate.
> 
> Then when SHE voted to separate you said:
> I just hope you understand that a year from now, when we are recovered a bit from this, you'll realize you voted to separate based on your understanding of my happiness, which you never even asked me.
> 
> YOU said that SHE didn't look happy, so YOU voted to separate. Isn't that the same thing?


Sorry if it is confusing.

>>W: "I don't think we've made enough progress. You don't look happy. I guess my vote is we separate."

She voted NO on the marriage because she thinks I don't look happy. I did not actually vote in the conversation. Odd, she never asked me to.


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## turnera

Oh, I thought that was YOUR line.


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