# Another new user, another sorry tale



## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Hi everyone. Newbie here with a story that contains all the elements you have seen before...just looking for different opinions and advice, particulaqrly from female members who can give the wife's perspective on this.

To keep it as brief as possible....

Married 17 years, 2 kids 15 and 13.. Neer been hugely close as we're both quite reserved people, a little closed off emotionally. Both been trying to change that. 

As part of that my W said that she wanted to start going out more, developing other friendships. We're not really very sociable and don't hve many friends as a couple or individually That was back in Oct/early November. She joined a group for people who just wanted to meet a broader social circle in our city. I wanted to give here the space, so never really asked (hello Nice Guy syndrome!!) but very quickly she started being very guarded about her phone and spending a lot of time texting - often checking as soon as she wakes up in teh morning. I've also found out that she put a messenger programme on her iPhone (so that it bypasses the text function - WhatsApp I think its called) and set up a secret Gmail account. I also know that she has been in communication with some people (men and women) who she has never mentioned to me. Meantime, she was being more and more closed off to me emotionally, but I figure (like many on here) that I'm giving her the time and space that she needs. 

I don't know for sure (I don't have access to her phone or her email accounts) but I am pretty convinced that she both had/is having an EA and that she has found a group of cheerleading friends who are a lot of fun, great shoulders to cry on and are probably cheerleaders who are supporting her in "liberating herself and going after what she needs, doing things for herself for once, etc." - i.e. leaving me.

It all came to a head about 2 or 3 weeks ago. She had been out every night that week (except one night when I was out at a church group). At least one of those nights she had dinner with a man, but she claims it was just friendly. All weekend I kept asking her what was wrong, what she was up to, etc. On the Sunday evening I finally said that to many people it would look like she was having an affair and that I was hurt by all the secrecy. She claimed that that moment made up her mind and she said she wanted to leave the marriage. She said "don't even try to make me go to counselling, and don't try to win me back! It's over". For about the next 10 days it seemed tht that was just about all that she could say "don't try to change my mind" like a broken record. Also very suspicious that I was out to screw her over divorce.

She has been to see a lawyer (we are not in the US) and started talking about the mechanics of divorce. Very calm conversation, but she finally realised that what I have been saying all along is true - we don't have a lot besides teh house and she will get a nice place to live for her and the kids and I will get whatever little is left (housing is very expensive in our city, so I really will be living in a dump compared to our nice family home). This upset her, and I saw the softer side of her for the first time in months. I comforted her.

Having been a bit more emotinoal with each other, I took a chance yesterday and told her that I thought that I could meet her needs. I said I had changed (which I have, partly as a result of this - finally realised that I am a really good guy with a lot to offer, whereas before I saw myself as a bit inadequate as a person). She took this warmly and seemed pleased, but 14 hours later she came back from work and just said coldly "I can't do it" and shrugged. Clearly hadn't given it a lot of thought, and I suspect has been asking her cheerleading friends who all said "don't be weak! don't go back to him". She has been reading "feel the fear and do it anyway" over the past few months and she is a very determined person. I think she feels that she has made a decision and will be letting herself down if she doesn't go through with it. 

It hasn't been a great marriage to date (we have both been a bit emotionally anal up until now) but given that I now feel really ready to love someone (whether her or someone else) I think it could be a great marriage. Might just be too little too late though. 

One other thing. The week before our conversation, the week that she went out every night, she got up at 2am and resigned from her social group and deleted her secret GMail account (since opened others, i am sure). My guess is that her EA ended, and that she blamed me. She glimpsed a little fantasy of how wonderful and alive life might be and it was taken away from her. Reality hurts, and I was the easiest thing to blame. 
Up until now I have tried to be strong and cheerful but remain open to her. Not so sure now - I am angry and ready to call her on her behaviour. I don't want the marriage to end but have found out how strong I am. 

Thoughts?


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Strength is good. She clearly betrayed you one way or another. She must feel the consequences for her actions. 

Do not tell her you can meet her needs. That's weak. 

If she wants back, her GNO days are over. Make her get an STD test. Threaten a lie detector test to find out if the EA went physical. You are probably still in shock and are thinking with your emotions. Think logically. Absolutely no we can get thru this if we work together talk.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Thanks for your reply and your thoughts, GutPunch.

One of the things that has allowed me to find my strength is finding out that I really am a great human being. I have a high IQ but before I always thought of myself as a brain attached to a pretty inadequate human being. Actually that human being is far from inadequate.

My point here is that having found myself and learned to love and appreciate myself I now have to be true to that guy. Now that guy certainly doesn't take **** - he says "I'm a great guy and if you want to be with me then you will treat me with the consideration and respect I deserve" And because I am a good guy I will do likewise. I need to think it through, but whatever I do it will be the right thing to do - right for me.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> Thanks for your reply and your thoughts, GutPunch.
> 
> One of the things that has allowed me to find my strength is finding out that I really am a great human being. I have a high IQ but before I always thought of myself as a brain attached to a pretty inadequate human being. Actually that human being is far from inadequate.
> 
> My point here is that having found myself and learned to love and appreciate myself I now have to be true to that guy. Now that guy certainly doesn't take **** - he says "I'm a great guy and if you want to be with me then you will treat me with the consideration and respect I deserve" And because I am a good guy I will do likewise. I need to think it through, but whatever I do it will be the right thing to do - right for me.




Excellent....You are way ahead of most of the posters here. Congrats on that. See the sitcuation for what it is not what you want it to be.


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## rickster (Jan 14, 2013)

Keep the chin up brother. Im in the same situation to you. You'll get some great advice on here. What i will say is; lifes too short, sort yourself out, and as hard as it seems, let her go.

By the way, where in the world are you from?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

GutPunch said:


> Excellent....You are way ahead of most of the posters here. Congrats on that. See the sitcuation for what it is not what you want it to be.


Thanks, GutPunch. I'm working my way through your journal, which is really useful. 

I think I'm moving towards the 180 but in my own way. I don;t so much see it as a hard-nosed tactic to "treat em mean" and get them to come crawling back. Perhaps I see it more as taking care of myself and my own needs and trying to cultivate a Zen-like detachment from the thing that brings you suffering (classic Buddhist teaching - it's hanging on to things that makes you hurt!).


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

rickster said:


> Keep the chin up brother. Im in the same situation to you. You'll get some great advice on here. What i will say is; lifes too short, sort yourself out, and as hard as it seems, let her go.
> 
> By the way, where in the world are you from?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks

I'm in London


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## rickster (Jan 14, 2013)

Im in glasgow, this site is mainly users in the US, but the advice is top notch.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> Thanks, GutPunch. I'm working my way through your journal, which is really useful.
> 
> I think I'm moving towards the 180 but in my own way. I don;t so much see it as a hard-nosed tactic to "treat em mean" and get them to come crawling back. Perhaps I see it more as taking care of myself and my own needs and trying to cultivate a Zen-like detachment from the thing that brings you suffering (classic Buddhist teaching - it's hanging on to things that makes you hurt!).


That's what the 180 is all about. You got this. Most newly betrayed use the 180 as a means of getting their spouse back. sometimes it does more times it doesn't. The 180 is all about detachment and moving on with your life and improving your situation.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Another Brit, welcome. It is mainly US on here but there are posters from all over and few of us from the UK.

Realising you needed to be happy with yourself puts you way ahead of a lot of us when we first wash up on here.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> Another Brit, welcome. It is mainly US on here but there are posters from all over and few of us from the UK.
> 
> Realising you needed to be happy with yourself puts you way ahead of a lot of us when we first wash up on here.


Thanks K.C.

I read your head post with your story. A lot of it sounds familiar. I too have suffered from low level depression off and on pretty much throughout my adult life. I would never claim to have conquered it but I have made one hell of a lot of progress, working on my own. I too was a bit of a distant husband - but, hell, she was a distant wife, too, especially since she decided to create her own secret world a few months ago. 

The irony for both of us is that having to cope with this **** is what has really turned us around as men and as human beings. I just wish she could see that, but she probably never will so have to walk away.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Voltaire,

The 180 is all about YOU

It's about how to prepare for the next phase of your life and has everthing to do about you and making you a better person for the next love of your life.

although you're still under the same roof with her, you could simply tell her that you'd appreciate it if she only speaks to you regarding matters of finance or the children.

Now start working out, losing weight and living your life. Find a group to join and start going out at night too. Even if you need to just go out by yourself and go to the local pub for an ale or two. Letter see that you're already moving on too.

Next, get yourself to a lawyer ASAP so you know your rights. In cases like this, you need to be worried whether or not she might try and empty any joint savings or run up credit card debt.

Not sure how divorce is handled in the UK but you should ask you lawter (solicitor in UK I guess!) what you need to do to protect yourself financially

Good luck!


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## Regga (Jan 22, 2013)

I think you sound like you're on the right track. It's cutting the cord that's the hardest. Whether you trust your relationship with your wife will make it or not, you have to be at peace with your decision. The 180 really helped me and my husband...but I knew he wouldn't go anywhere for long. It killed me while he was gone; but I love him enough to let him decide how he really wants to live his life. He knows what I expect out of our marriage...what do you expect out of yours?


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Regga said:


> I think you sound like you're on the right track. It's cutting the cord that's the hardest. Whether you trust your relationship with your wife will make it or not, you have to be at peace with your decision. The 180 really helped me and my husband...but I knew he wouldn't go anywhere for long. It killed me while he was gone; but I love him enough to let him decide how he really wants to live his life. He knows what I expect out of our marriage...what do you expect out of yours?


Thanks, Regga - very helpful sentiments


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

I think I know who the EA was with - don;t have a whole lot of evidence except the fact that she had some sort of relationship with a man that she really didn't want me to know about.

I'm wondering about contacting his wife (I think he's married, not entirely sure) and seeing what her take on it is. I think the EA is over and I'm wondering whether he was busted. The alternative is to confront him directly, but I can't see getting a whole lot out of that - probably just end up with me ranting like an idiot and him issuing calm denials. I certainly won't get any information out of him and will just show my hand.

Oh, and I've put up the emotional walls. Not showing any care for her well-being or interest in her life, just calmly talking about domestic arrangements. Hardest thing is actually not letting the anger show through because I'm going through a phase of being very very angry with her.

I was thinking of telling her that when we do eventually tell the children that I will insist that they know everything - that she had relationships with men (probably platonic, but who knows) that she was very careful to keep secret from me and that she kept going on and on about wanting to "do something for herself" - i.e the he!! with me and the kids. Won't do it, because that would be using the kids as pawns in our relationship, but I really feel like it. Perhaps I will insist that they know about it when they are old enough.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Hmmmmmm.....just had an email from her asking if we can schedule some time this weekend to "talk about things". I don;t think she wants to talk about the whole state of our marriage, but is probably concerned that suddenly I'm emotionally withdrawn and her nice cuddly comfort blanket is gone.

When I asked to schedule some time to "talk about things" 2 weeks ago, a week after she dropped her bombshell on me, she went off the deep end and accused me of trying to control her and being manipulative. Very tempting to throw that one in her face but I know I shouldn't - that is not the cool, calm, 180 man. 

Wondering how to play it (both responding to email and playing the actual meeting, which I think we will have). My basic line is that we either have a full marriage or we have nothing. I offered to work on our marriage a few days ago and she threw it back in my face, so she has voted for nothing. She doesn't get to pick and choose the bits she likes (like the nice sap who listens to her moan for 2 hours about how bad it is at her workplace) and discard the rest. I'm worth more than that and I will not be disrespected in that way.


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## rickster (Jan 14, 2013)

Take control of the situation voltiare! Tell her your not interested, you'll see in a couple of days how desperate she gets. Then you can decide for yourself. 

Personally, even though weve only been seperated 1 month, i couldnt contemplate taking her back. Once you step out of that marriage circle, i dont think theres ever a way back in. Lifes too short to be wasting it in people who cant decide what they want.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

rickster said:


> Take control of the situation voltiare! Tell her your not interested, you'll see in a couple of days how desperate she gets. Then you can decide for yourself.


Oh, I'll certainly take control and only discuss what I want to discuss - which is not how she is feeling or how she doesn't want a marriage but wants a best friend and emotional support whilst she works out how to leave me for good and launch her "grass is always greener" new life.

I don't think she is anywhere near desperation yet. If she were it would be the fastest 180 ever!


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Again V make this on YOUR terms and not hers!

Tell her you can't meet this weekend because you already have plans with the kids and "others"

If you can arrange cover for the kids, go out one night and stay out until the wee hours if you can. Better yet, ask her if she can watch the kids one night and tell her you two can talk when you get home and then get a hotel room somewhere and stay there for the night!


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Toffer said:


> Again V make this on YOUR terms and not hers!
> 
> Tell her you can't meet this weekend because you already have plans with the kids and "others"
> 
> If you can arrange cover for the kids, go out one night and stay out until the wee hours if you can. Better yet, ask her if she can watch the kids one night and tell her you two can talk when you get home and then get a hotel room somewhere and stay there for the night!


I hear what you and rickster are saying - and thanks a lot for the advice. 

I'm now trying to approach this like a business negotiation - and one in which I am in a strong position (because although she has said that she wants to end things I too am willing to walk away). In those circumstances in business if the other side requested a meeting I wouldn't necessarily refuse to meet them. But, as you rightly say, I would certainly meet them on my terms.

In business being overly aggressive and generally overplaying your hand can look as weak and insecure as caving in. I'm worried about coming across like that. If I suddenly discover something I "urgently" need to do on sunday then it will be pretty clear that I have invented something as an excuse not to meet. And that could look weak - a poor bluff, a busted flush. 

Possibly better to play it along the lines of "I'll get around to our discussion when I'm ready" and keep her waiting rather than fixing a time. And then insisting that we meet where I want to meet (e.g. outside the house) and/or insisting that we discuss things I want to discuss before I let her say what she wants to say (which she now says are D issues - she wants to discuss the process that she has already set in motion and to make it as amicable as possible. "Amicable" = you want my co-operation - a point to ponder.

I need to think about all of this (and thanks again for the input), but my gut instincts are:

1. to be me, not to try to play some macho character who throws his weight around - IMO the 180 only works if it's totally genuine. If you fake it and try to play a character you are not she will spot it a mile away and it will just look like a pretty pathetic bit of posturing. 

2. to put my business head on and be the person I am at work, since I know I can pull that off fairly easily, I can stop myself from getting emotional and I can focus on putting what I want at the top of the agenda. But I have to work out exactly what that is first!! 

Another question....I really want to know what happened with the EA. Guys, am I right in thinking that it would be a bad idea to bring this up and make talking about this my condition for talking about what she wants to talk about? Although I really want to know it seems needy and goes against the 180 philosophy of building yourself a new future and I am sure that she will never admit to it unless confronted with undeniable evidence.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I dislike games myself. You have to be true to yourself. That is being strong and sticking to your guns. Personally don't see any reason pretend you are out or any such myself. I do think people are pretty good at picking up at attempts to play the situation once they have their eyes open to that possibility and I would bet she does. 

If YOU want a meeting then have one but as you say on your terms. What you do need to consider though is that as much as you say you will do this or do that, once emotion kicks in at the time, well you know what they say about the best laid plans.

As to an EA or PA, I don't see any reason to go into it unless you have undeniable proof. Without that she will just deny anyway and try to turn it on you.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> I hear what you and rickster are saying - and thanks a lot for the advice.
> 
> I'm now trying to approach this like a business negotiation - and one in which I am in a strong position (because although she has said that she wants to end things I too am willing to walk away). In those circumstances in business if the other side requested a meeting I wouldn't necessarily refuse to meet them. But, as you rightly say, I would certainly meet them on my terms.
> 
> ...


*Leave it lay. Trying to get that information will again put her in a position of power. She has the information and you want it. Bad dynamic my friend!*


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Oh boy - real setback this morning. Or was it? Not a great 180 moment, but maybe a useful one in the long run. 

I was out last night and everyone was in bed when I got home. She was sick this morning, so I start getting kids ready, etc. Then she says we need to talk. I stonewall and walk away, but she says that we need to talk about the kids because "they have worked it out". I put off the conversation several more times, but she follows me around the house. 

Finally end up having the conversation - or 2 or 3 separate disjointed conversations as I keep walking away. But it's about the welfare of my kids, so I find it impossible to just stonewall completely. Probably a mistake, particularly to engage emotionally, but we all make mistakes.

Anyway, I think she want me to make it nice and easy for her, to tell the kids together that "sometimes adults just don't get on" or some hogwash like that. I told her that they would not buy this, and that she needed to explain to them two things. First, why she had chosen to leave the marriage and break up the family and second why she was unwilling to try to make it work. I asked her flat out what she was going to say to the kids when they ask her why she wasn't willing to give it another shot. She said she didn't have an answer. I told her she needed one. She then angrily said that I wanted to shoot her down in front of the kids. I said that I had no intention of doing that, but that nor would I be held accountable for her decisions. She shot back that she wouldn't take all the blame for our marriage going wrong (translation: she still doesn't accept any of the blame - in the fog it's all MY fault). 

At one point I also pointed out that she wasn't so concerned about the kids when she was out every night of the week and they were asking where she was, or when she kept saying that she was tired of putting me and the kids first and needed to "do something for herself". I know I shouldn't have engaged emotionally, but it felt good!

Whilst I was getting things off my chest, I also brought up the EA in a roundabout way. I said that when a wife was having relationships with people that she was desperate for her husband to know nothing about then something was wrong. She didn't deny it and only reacted when I said "that's called an Emotional Affair - look it up". 

This was probably a huge tactical mistake but I think it may have actually helped me begin to untangle emotionally. I've said the things I needed to say. I stopped being a doormat. I called her on her bad behavior. I do feel a bit lighter and as if I can view her in a slightly more detached way. Funnily enough I can empathize with where she is emotionally but without wanting either to hold her and make things better or to turn the screw. At least that's how I feel right this second, and I think in some ways that's the best 180 position of all if I can maintain it. Decent, concerned (as one human to another - no more than that) and yet not emotionally invested in her outcome. That's for her. I'm suddenly much less curious about the suspected EA (although I might just do a little bit more digging just so I have an ace up my sleeve if I need it). 

I'm thinking of emailing her a part of Michele Weiner-Davis's Divorce Busting from her website - particularly the bit about how the WAW gets seduced into thinking that divorce is an easy solution whilst at the same time thinking that the marriage is an irreparable pit of hell. But I'm not going to do that, at least not just yet, because 180 man needs to do some work now!


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Volt,

Dig for info if you can. It doesn't hurt to have it and it may help harden your resolve about the process you are undertaking.

Perhaps the two of you should contact a shrink and see what the best approach to telling the kids is.

I for one would be sure NOT to lie to any questions raised by the kids like when they asked WHY. I would tell them the truth, that mommy wants to be by herself now and that she doesn't love daddy anymore.

But that's just me


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Life seems determined to dump everything it can on me. Not content with taking away my wife, my family and the majority of my possessions, it now wants to take away my health. Don't want to go into too many details here, but lets just say that I need to have a number of very frightening procedures which may or may not work. If they don't work, it could have a significant and permanent impact on my day to day life.

I walked out of the hospital yesterday with tears streaming down my face. Thank god it was dark! But I wasn't saying "why me?". I was saying to whoever is out there "Ok, if this is the way you want it, then bring it on. I stand alone and I fight. Whatever more you want to throw at me, do your worst." I was literally this demented guy striding down the road with big heavy tears rolling down my cheeks, jaw tightly clenched saying aloud "I will not be defeated". People were scattering and looking for the hidden camera!! 

That sort of defiant high can't last forever, of course, but at least this morning I still feel determined. I have to go back to the hospital later on. I'm scared, very scared, but I'm going to face it head on. And alone. Just me against the world.

I did eventually tell the STBXW more or less what was happening, but I told her that this was part of my new life and that I was facing it alone, on my terms. I only told her because I remembered that one of the 180 principles is not to do anything to push her away, and shutting her out completely was doing that. Hope that's right. 

Meanwhile she has been sick and I have been looking after her like any decent human being would (making food and cups of tea) but trying to do it in a very detached way - like a professional nurse who does not engage emotionally with the patient. Otherwise been trying to ignore her and minimize contact. It feels strange - more as if I'm acting like a sulky teenager than a strong man who doesn't need her - but will persevere. Anyone else feel similar?

What is life going to throw at me next? Not much more left to take from me apart from life itself - although I am left with ME - my honor, dignity, strength and everything else that I am.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Don't make this easy on her - if she is breaking up the family, then let her explain to your children that Mommy does not want to be with Daddy anymore - therefore the family is being split up. No parachutes. Let her OWN her sh*t. Don't email her the Divorce Busting material - that goes against the 180 rules. I did it and it got me no where. 
And finally, don't bring up The EA/OM again. You are empowering that dynamic. Act as if - if she wants to carry on w/ that affair, then let her. 
It seems like you are well prepared for what's coming - with a little fine tuning, I think you will ok.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

V, I missed your last post about your health situation - sorry brother. 
Life is throwing you a lot of crap right now. It must be overwhelming. A friend once told me: God won't give you more than you can handle.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

This 180 stuff is hard to do...I feel either cruel or like a bit of a ****. But I guess that is the nice guy conditioning.

Yesterday, after I came back from the hospital, she wanted to know all about my condition and treatment. I just said firmly but politely "Thank you for your concern, but this is something I have to deal with on my own." AT one point she made overtures, saying that she hadn't actually started the legal process. Iso wanted to jump all over that, but I ignored it. I felt like I was throwing away the only chance I would ever get to reconcile, but I held firm.

It's her birthday today. Have done nothing - no card, no "happy birthday". Basically just ignoring her. She's got all defensive and put the barriers up again, which again makes me feel worried that I have missed the boat. She really doesn't find it easy to reach out and say "love me" - she finds it much much easier to sit there brooding behind her barriers. That's how much of our marriage was - her behind her barriers and me behind mine. I think I am going to have to be the one to reach out and offer her love, but I don't think that the time for that is yet - although I'm still worried that I have missed my chance.

Meanwhile our 15 year old daughter is completely miserable and won't eat. It's heartbreaking seeing her in pain.

Oh, and got some legal documents in the mail today. Nothing major, just some things to clarify home ownership and ensure that she has a claim. But still - nice.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

ReGroup said:


> V, I missed your last post about your health situation - sorry brother.
> Life is throwing you a lot of crap right now. It must be overwhelming. A friend once told me: God won't give you more than you can handle.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks for the thoughts, ReGroup. I feel like life kept slapping me in the face until I woke up and started wanting to fight back. It's taken a lot of slaps, but I've finally woken up.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

Do keep an eye on your daughter - mine was 15 at the time too and pretty mature but it's easy to forget they are still emotionally vulnerable. They are also very sensitive to what's going on

You sound like you're in control but I do worry that you're already saying you're going to have to be the one to reach out. Why? It takes two to reach this point in a marriage - she's going to have to do some changing too....she finds it easier to hide behind barriers? Well how's that worked for her so far?


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Dollystanford said:


> Do keep an eye on your daughter - mine was 15 at the time too and pretty mature but it's easy to forget they are still emotionally vulnerable. They are also very sensitive to what's going on
> 
> You sound like you're in control but I do worry that you're already saying you're going to have to be the one to reach out. Why? It takes two to reach this point in a marriage - she's going to have to do some changing too....she finds it easier to hide behind barriers? Well how's that worked for her so far?


Hi DS - good to hear from another Londoner!

I hear what you say about the barriers and who should be reaching out to whom. But this has been the whole history of our marriage - both of us sitting behind emotional barriers, feeling hurt/bitter, not talking things out, not being honest about our feelings, making assumptions about what the other is thinking. You get the picture.

I'm not that guy any more. I have a much bigger heart and I am not afraid to get out from behind my barrier. 

So your question is why should I be the one to do that, when she has brought all of this upon herself/us. The answer, in a nutshell, is because I can and she can't.

Does that mean that she gets off scot free and doesn't have to make any effort or any changes? He!! no! I've got my list of demands for us to get back together, and one of those is being much more emotionally open and honest - putting those barriers down forever. But that will take time and at the moment she can't do that. 

I just don't want to get to a point where she realises her mistake, the fog has lifted, she is ready and willing to change and to put effort into the relationship going forward, knows that she is in a deep, deep hole of her own making, but is just too damn emotionally constipated to reach out and ask for help and promise to make the changes that she is willing to make. It would just be a real shame if that happened. 

But of course she needs to reach that point. She needs to stop blame-shifting, she needs to stop being angry at me for the situation that she created, she needs to realise that her "grass is always greener" fantasy of a free and simple single life is baloney, and most of all the 180 has to show her that there is a guy right in front of her that she could have a good long term relationship with.

And, of course, if she doesn't get there then this whole discussion is academic. I'm not going to reach out out of pity or desperation. I'm only going to do it if I see a real sign that she regrets what she has done and is prepared to work at the marriage. And it's a one time thing. Here is an open door to say what you want to say to me. If you're not ready to make the right commitment, or aren't sincere then the door closes forever. 

That all makes sense to me....but does it smack of self-justification to you? Am I kidding myself? I am prepared to walk away but if it can work I want it to work - for the sake of the kids if nothing else.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

Well I guess you're hoping for her to make a fundamental change in her personality - has she shown any sign of doing so? Even if she does she may keep going backwards and forwards. My ex veered wildly from 'I still love you and I've f*cked up' to 'well it was your fault too'. 

All I know is that you have to both be prepared to work on it - if one is more invested than the other it's a recipe for disaster. I'm also not a massive fan of 'doing it for the kids' to be honest. I understand why people do, but it shouldn't be a reason for you to stay in a relationship where you're unhappy. That can be more damaging for kids in the long run

Why do you say 'you can and she can't'? What has allowed you to make that change?


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Dollystanford said:


> Well I guess you're hoping for her to make a fundamental change in her personality - has she shown any sign of doing so?


I don;t think it's so much a change of personality as just being a bit braver emotionally. And I think that if one of us gets out of our emotional bunker it makes it much much easier for the other one to do so.



Dollystanford said:


> Even if she does she may keep going backwards and forwards. My ex veered wildly from 'I still love you and I've f*cked up' to 'well it was your fault too'.


Funny you should say that. She accused me of being Jekyl and Hyde today - and of being Mr Nice one minute and trying to loom over her and intimidate her physically the next - which of course is complete BS. I will admit that my 180 efforts sometimes come out as slightly angry and at other times as more laid back, but the real thing that is swinging back and forth is her anger. I don;t know whether to take anger as a good sign - better than no emotional engagement at all?



Dollystanford said:


> All I know is that you have to both be prepared to work on it - if one is more invested than the other it's a recipe for disaster.


Absolutely. When I talk about reaching out I am just talking about jump starting the process. After that initial bit it has to be 50/50 all the way. And I'm only going to provide that jump start if she is showing very clear signs that she would be prepared to put in the effort. She's quite a way away from that yet. 



Dollystanford said:


> Why do you say 'you can and she can't'? What has allowed you to make that change?


Because I have changed quite a lot through this process, even though it has not been going long. I always thought of myself as a pretty second rate human being - someone who had to make up for his inadequacies or apologize for them. Suddenly I feel as worthy as anyone else on the planet - my love is as good as anyone else's and I deserve love and to get what I want out of life as much as anyone else. I realized that I am good enough. And that's really powerful stuff. 

Funny, the author Steve Biddulph (Raising Boys, Manhood) talks about how modern men have been emasculated and the stereotype of the useless, hapless husband is everywhere in our culture. That's kind of how I felt. But not any more.


I'm just wondering whether her anger is a good thing, and whether it is a stage on a way to the fog lifting. Today was her birthday and she had a really bad day. No-one got her anything, she ended up making herself a cake, I showed complete 180 disinterest and her own kids were pretty upset with her. Of course it's all my fault. But when she threw that at me I didn't engage with the anger but just walked away. I calmly said that I wasn't going to argue with her, but that everyone in the family was living with the consequences of her decision. She shot back "and I suppose none of it is your fault" and I simply repeated very calmly that everyone in the family is living with the consequences of her decision and then I walked off.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

She's got a seething anger on her today - trying to pretend that everything is going just fine by going around the house singing, etc. but I know her too well. 

She had a tough upbringing (very neglectful) and a lot of anger inside her. I would always try to appease that before. Now she owns it, and I feel like I am dealing with a very angry teenager. I feel empathy but detachment - like a counselor or a teacher. Only thing to do is to wait for the anger to subside - if it ever does. But it certainly isn't going to get to me and I am not going to engage with it. 

Kids have noticed too and have started to react against her. Sad to see, but what can I do?


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## rickster (Jan 14, 2013)

Voltiare. You keep talking about changing yourself here. Think about how much you changed when you got together with your ex. 

With me, i totally changed my character. I became boring, and a bit of a pushover. Ive been trying to think about getting back to my old self. The happy go lucky, game for a laugh, easy going guy i was before the wicked witch got her claws into me.

Something to think about rather than focusing on "fixing" yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

rickster said:


> Voltiare. You keep talking about changing yourself here. Think about how much you changed when you got together with your ex.
> 
> With me, i totally changed my character. I became boring, and a bit of a pushover. Ive been trying to think about getting back to my old self. The happy go lucky, game for a laugh, easy going guy i was before the wicked witch got her claws into me.
> 
> ...


Hey rickster - thanks for the feedback.

Actually, I have changed already. I took a good long look at myself and found that I liked what I saw. I found value in myself that I never knew was there. Was always convinced that I wasn't a "man of character" if you know what I mean and was second best. Actually, I've found that I am a man of character, and integrity, and love. I'm a great guy. I am hoping that she will want me and value me for all of this, but that's beyond my control. If she doesn't want me or won't value me then someone else will. Ball is in her court - but not for too long.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

I ignored my ex husband's anger for a long time. There were red flags all over the shop before we got married but it's easy to gloss over. When the scales fell from my eyes last year I realised exactly what you have - that I was dealing with a petulant teenager and his tantrums. Funnily enough it was the final nail in the coffin - I like to think I'm a bit of a catch actually, and this negative man-baby wasn't worth a minute more of my time.

There was always a 'reason' for it - job, health, money whatever. But whatever stage we were at in life it was the same and he never did anything active about trying to make things better. So it was clearly just him. Happy to let someone else deal with it now


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

She's just complained that I didn't say "happy birthday" to her yesterday!! Talk about wanting to have your cake and eat it. She thinks she can drop the D bomb and life just goes on as normal - or rather on her terms.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

See? Petulant child
I'm surprised she didn't stamp her foot too


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Dollystanford said:


> See? Petulant child
> I'm surprised she didn't stamp her foot too


Just had another argument about the kids. She wants to tell the kids, but she wants to give them some old soft soap about Mom and Dad not getting on and both deserving to be happy. I'm telling her that this won't wash, and when they ask us to give it another try - as they inevitably will - then SHE is going to have to explain why SHE took the decision to break up the family and why SHE is not prepared to give it another try.

Of course she angrily accuses me of pushing my own agenda and of trying to make her look bad in front of the kids - and doing all this to try to punish her to the detriment of the kids. The kids already realize that something is up, they are angry at her (far more so than me) so telling them that we aren't getting on ain't exactly going to be news to them.

Of course I knew this wasn't a 180 thing to do - but we have to discuss teh kids at some point. I did walk away and tell her that we could discuss it when she was a bit less angry. When she said "so none of this is your fault, eh?" i did say that I certainly bear my share of the responsibility for marital mistakes but that I had not made the decision to end it - that is hers alone and she has to own it and be accountable for it. While I was at it I said again that I found it inappropriate and a breach of trust for her to have had secret relationships with other men. I did not say anything more than that - did not use the A word (or EA) but she didn't argue - she knows I know and that is enough. I even used the famous Lady Di "3 of us in this marriage" line!!

As I walked away I told her that I was moving on - trying to restore my 180 credentials!!


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

Her anger is merely a projection of her guilt. She knows she's the one who's doing this and she's terrified of lookng bad.

My ex was exactly the same - his decision to scour the internet looking for other women, his decision to take some of them out for drinks, his decision to leave, his decision to tell me there was no chance of working it out. But boy did he hate it when I discussed it with anyone. I got accused of 'making him look bad' and told that it was partly my fault too...

My answer to that was 'yes it takes two to create problems but I would have been willing to own my part and try and make things better, you didn't even have enough respect for me or the marriage to give me the chance'

He knows deep down that it's his fault - that's what they hate more than anything. They can project blame all they want but they are the ones who have to go to bed at night knowing they f*cked up.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Dollystanford said:


> Her anger is merely a projection of her guilt. She knows she's the one who's doing this and she's terrified of lookng bad.
> 
> My ex was exactly the same - his decision to scour the internet looking for other women, his decision to take some of them out for drinks, his decision to leave, his decision to tell me there was no chance of working it out. But boy did he hate it when I discussed it with anyone. I got accused of 'making him look bad' and told that it was partly my fault too...
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Thanks, Dollystanford - that really helps.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Do WS's ever read these threads? I have been pretty careful to cover all traces of TAM, but don't want her to get wind of my tactics.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

I just sent this in a P to someone who had kindly PM'd me a link to http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...thing-every-bs-should-read-trigger-alert.html and I thought I would post it here in the open. Just seems therapeutic.

Thanks a lot for that [name] - a very useful perspective.

I think my wife is slightly different to that - but if anything she is worse. She is a rather emotionally damaged individual (neglectful upbringing) and I don't think she actually knows how to love other people - she doesn't love herself enough for that. Instead she just sits behind a barrier and waits for other people to come to her emotionally. And when they don't (as I didn't always, during our marriage - but clearly she thought that OM was bringing her love) she gets incredibly bitter. That bitterness is capable of incredible cruelty when it really cranks up. It certainly doesn't return love easily, or show generosity or forgiveness - this woman bears grudges for decades. It is pure neediness that doesn't know any other way to behave but to have a desperate tantrum when it doesn't get what it craves. It doesn't understand that you have to love to get love.

I was afraid of that anger, that fear, and throughout our marriage I would appease it. I always felt second best, a compromise, and as if I had to keep her happy so that she would keep me. I sat behind an emotional barrier, a bit like her, because I didn't think that my love was good enough for anyone. But no more. I have found the value in myself. I have a great capacity to love, and my love is a valuable commodity. I reserve it for those who deserve it. She may, or she may not, but she is rapidly moving towards the undeserving category - these things just take time.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Just had the letter from her lawyers. She wants me to admit unreasonable behaviour so that it can go through as quickly as possible (that's the way things are typically done in the UK if the divorce is amicable). 

The POS pencil necked lawyer is also lecturing me about how WE should tell OUR kids. He claims (based on what my wife is saying) that I want us to tell the kids that it's all her fault. That's not what I said at all. I said that she should be accountable for her decisions - i.e. be honest enough to tell her own children that she has decided to walk away from the marriage and that she was unwilling to make any attempts at reconciliation. 

I was expecting it, but seeing it in black and white - gut wrenching.


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## catcalls (Oct 31, 2012)

hi voltaire, reading your thread just now and i thought i would delurk to comment. another londoner here.

you are right that you should not make excuses for your wife especially with your children. they are not young toddlers (i assume) so they will get it. can you put adultery as a cause in the legal papers as well. might be something to consider if it is not going to cause too much hassle

how is it going to work out with the assets, child support etc. 

also you should not be hard on yourself if you feel you are slipping from the 180. your anger is justified and if it comes through from time to time so be it. 

your wife has convinced herself that she has done nothing wrong and she should not be vilified for seeking 'happiness'. well she has no moral authority. 

i think you should focus your energies on your health and that of your childrens. if you have to put off or delay things related to her/divorce to help you cope, then do so. if it helps you to get these things sorted out quicker then do so. essentially your outlook should be about making your happier and healthier.

good luck


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

catcalls said:


> hi voltaire, reading your thread just now and i thought i would delurk to comment. another londoner here.


Thanks. Nice to see someone from here. 



catcalls said:


> you are right that you should not make excuses for your wife especially with your children. they are not young toddlers (i assume) so they will get it. can you put adultery as a cause in the legal papers as well. might be something to consider if it is not going to cause too much hassle


Agreed. The are 13 and 15. They are going to want to know why this happened, who called time, why won't we try to reconcile. Particularly on that last one, she has ruled it out and I have told her that she has to explain that to the kids. Doesn't like it much.



catcalls said:


> how is it going to work out with the assets, child support etc.


I think I'm screwed. WE have a nice house in West London (from the days when I made decent money, before the recession LOL). Don't have a lot else besides the house. I think what's going to happen is that she will get a 3 bedroom flat in this same (very expensive) area so that the kids can be near their schools. I will get whatever is left - probably be living in a bedsit in Brixton! LOL. Concerned that the court will turn around and say that whatever I end up with is not a suitable home for the children so my access rights will be curtailed. 




catcalls said:


> your wife has convinced herself that she has done nothing wrong and she should not be vilified for seeking 'happiness'. well she has no moral authority.


Yup. She's deep in the fog. Living in a typical WAW fantasyland where "being on her own"/"being free to love again" is going to be some sort of magic nirvana. No doubt there will be unicorns, too. 

More than anything else I just want to shake her and say "we've not been very happy because neither of us was able to risk our emotions and put ourselves on the line. WE hid from each other, and were incredibly defensive. I have changed but you haven't. So what makes you think that next time will be different for you? Is it just because in your dreams it is Brad Pitt?



catcalls said:


> i think you should focus your energies on your health and that of your childrens. if you have to put off or delay things related to her/divorce to help you cope, then do so. if it helps you to get these things sorted out quicker then do so. essentially your outlook should be about making your happier and healthier.
> 
> good luck


Thanks. The fact that just about everything I value is being knocked away from me at once - marriage, family, everything I have worked for, and now my health - just makes me feel all the stronger in some strange way. I have no idea how I'm going to cope, but I will.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

You will cope. Seriously, f*ck her. I'm not trying to be crass or provocative, and I know she's your wife, but f*ck her. Who does she think she is?

Why is she getting the nice pad in the nice area? Is your lawyer fighting for you?

Don't mind me, I'm just amped today. Tired of this WAW bullsh!t.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

staystrong said:


> You will cope. Seriously, f*ck her. I'm not trying to be crass or provocative, and I know she's your wife, but f*ck her. Who does she think she is?


Who does she think she is? Some free spirit who "deserves to be free" and "deserves to be loved" even if that means sh1tting all over everyone else, including her own children whose lives will be irretrievably affected. 

She told me she knows I love her. But still she needs to go off to be loved. 

I asked when and where she put in the effort to try to fix things if they were going so badly wrong - there were two of us in the marriage and we were jointly responsible for its health. She just shrugged and said that she didn't bother to try to fix anything, she just gave up. 



staystrong said:


> Why is she getting the nice pad in the nice area?


We'll see how it works out. Unfortunately I live in the UK, which is probably the most wife-loving, father-hating jurisdiction in the Western world when it comes to divorce. 



staystrong said:


> Don't mind me, I'm just amped today. Tired of this WAW bullsh!t.


Amen. And it is such bullsh!t, isn't it? All some stupid fantasy encouraged by the "I deserve to have it all - and I can!" mindset as well as this stereotype that we as a society have bought that middle aged men aren't real men, they're just bumbling fools to be tolerated. Some fantasy that "if only I could get out of this marriage my whole life will be wonderful". All life's problems will magically disappear.


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## catcalls (Oct 31, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> I think I'm screwed. WE have a nice house in West London (from the days when I made decent money, before the recession LOL). Don't have a lot else besides the house. I think what's going to happen is that she will get a 3 bedroom flat in this same (very expensive) area so that the kids can be near their schools. I will get whatever is left - probably be living in a bedsit in Brixton! LOL. Concerned that the court will turn around and say that whatever I end up with is not a suitable home for the children so my access rights will be curtailed.


This may come as harsh, but you need to change your mindset. you should be more aggressive wrt the divorce settlement. i assume you are the main earner in the family a
and work more hours. hence you think that she will get custody and you are to be shunted out. yes that could be the standard protocol. 

but you dont have to sit by and wait for that to happen. you should go for full custody. at the very least for 50% custody. you should not leave your house. if she is leaving the marriage she should go out of the house. anyway, your children are old enough to express a preference as to which parent they want to stay with. push comes to shove, whom do you think they will choose? also they are teenagers so the amount of years you are responsible for child support is not that long. all these things will work in your favour and prevent you from being shafted totally.


whilst house prices in london are holding up well, there is no guarantee that you can sell at a good price within a few months.
you really need to be very smart and get advice from people/forums which are UK specific regarding divorce. i know it is unpleasant but you have to fight now to stop her stupidity from affecting you longterm financially.

above all be proactive. the family courts are obviously very female centric but that does not mean that she gets everything and you left in a bedsit in brixton. good luck


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

catcalls said:


> This may come as harsh, but you need to change your mindset. you should be more aggressive wrt the divorce settlement.


Oh, I will be. I hven't even looked into it all yet. TBH I'm just looking at the very worst case and everything I can get over and above that is upside. 



catcalls said:


> i assume you are the main earner in the family and work more hours.


I have been in the past, earning multiples of what she earned. But the past few years have been very lean for me. Ironically, that works in my favour because a court can't order me to pay huge amounts if I no longer have the huge salary! I also have no incentive to go out and get a good well-paid job until all of this is settled. 





catcalls said:


> you should go for full custody. at the very least for 50% custody.


We have already agreed that we will have joint legal custody. I don;t want to say any more about my expectations regarding who gets to see/take care of the kids on here just in case a lawyer gets hold of it!




catcalls said:


> if she is leaving the marriage she should go out of the house.


Logically, yes - but she won't do that. She can't afford to and think she has been advised not to by lawyers.



catcalls said:


> anyway, your children are old enough to express a preference as to which parent they want to stay with. push comes to shove, whom do you think they will choose?


Again, not going to comment just in case this ever gets produced in court - you never know!



catcalls said:


> also they are teenagers so the amount of years you are responsible for child support is not that long.


That's right. The more I think about it the more I am thinking that there is no reason for me to buy her a nice 3 bedroom place that she will only need to house the kids for say 5-7 years - and then get to enjoy on her own for the next 30 or 40 years.


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## caladan (Nov 2, 2012)

In the UK, everything is split down the middle. But - you've got kids that at the moment "need a mother", so she'll get the house.

Dude, relax. Don't get bitter. Here's how I see it - would I leave my house for my kids? Damn right I would.

Don't let your bitterness towards your ex affect the welfare of your kids. This whole issue of telling her to inform the kids that she wants to be with other people, let's be honest, that's bollocks.

You need forget about her, and look out for yourself and your kids. Apathy, not anger. Apathy.

I mean seriously, you said (3 or 4) times on this thread how she had a "neglected" childhood, and now you think the best way to prevent that from happening to your kids is to tell them that their mom is a <insert word of choice here>?


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

caladan said:


> In the UK, everything is split down the middle. But - you've got kids that at the moment "need a mother", so she'll get the house.


She can't have the house because that's pretty much all there is in terms of liquid assets. So the house will be sold and we'll see how the proceeds gets split. It's the only home my kids have ever known, so it'll be a huge wrench for them. 



caladan said:


> Dude, relax. Don't get bitter. Here's how I see it - would I leave my house for my kids? Damn right I would.


I hear you. But I would rather leave MY house to MY kids when I've done with it, and not be thrown out of it by a divorce court and run the risk that my STBXW decides to leave some or all of the sale proceeds to, say, a new husband and/or his kids. 




caladan said:


> Don't let your bitterness towards your ex affect the welfare of your kids. This whole issue of telling her to inform the kids that she wants to be with other people, let's be honest, that's bollocks.


It's not about that. It's about honesty - honesty with kids who are old enough to have a pretty good understanding of what's going on. It's also about people taking responsibility for their decisions and their actions and not seeking to hide behind some "sometimes adults don't get on" bullsh1t. The bottom line is that I am not going to lie to my kids. I am not going to pretend that their world is about to be ripped apart due to a mutual decision. It wasn't a mutual decision. It was her decision, and she needs to explain to the kids how and why she took that decision. Again, this is not to punish her, it is about honesty and accountability. Likewise, when the kids ask us why we won't try to reconcile I am not going to lie and say that I am not willing to try that, because I am. She is going to have to be honest and to explain to them why she is unwilling to try. 

If we were dealing with 5 year olds it would be different - then the "sometimes adults don't get on" line would work. But teenagers are going to want to understand exactly who decided what and why. I am not going to lie just to make the conversation more comfortable for her. And even if I did lie this is not going to be a one-time-only conversation. The kids are going to be asking questions for months to come, and it is inconceivable that the truth won't come out. So lying is pointless as well as wrong and something that will compromise my relationship with my kids - the kids I am not likely to be living with for that much longer. 

But nor am I going to dump all over her and demonize her. It's her decision to explain, and once she has finished explaining I will support her right to make that decision (and won't discuss what I think of that decision). I will tell my kids that both their parents love them, that this has nothing to do with them (although in my experience kids ALWAYS blame themselves for a divorce), that we will work together to build a good future for them and that they do not have to choose sides. I will also tell that that it's OK for them to be angry or upset. 

As for bitterness, I have already heard my wife dropping some anti-men "never get married" and "don't trust men" propaganda on my 15 year old daughter. Nothing too heavy, just one or two comments (that I'm aware of) but it's not right. 





caladan said:


> You need forget about her, and look out for yourself and your kids. Apathy, not anger. Apathy.


Amen to that!


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## caladan (Nov 2, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> It's not about that. It's about honesty - honesty with kids who are old enough to have a pretty good understanding of what's going on. It's also about people taking responsibility for their decisions and their actions and not seeking to hide behind some "sometimes adults don't get on" bullsh1t.


No, that's all they need to know. There's no need to villify the woman who probably will have custody of them for half the time in the near future, what sort of upbringing will that give them?

No, while I'm totally on your side here, I still think you're thinking vindictively. I knew about sex at 13, but I doubt that I would have appreciated the "honesty" of my dad explaining to me how he f**ked my mom in order for me to be born. Hell, even now, it's too much information.

it's your call, and I respect that, but I still feel your (totally justified) method will unnecessarily expose your kids to what may end up becoming a bitter battle.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

caladan said:


> No, that's all they need to know. There's no need to villify the woman who probably will have custody of them for half the time in the near future, what sort of upbringing will that give them?


As I say, it's not about vilifying the woman. And if my kids are happy with the "sometimes adults don't get on" bullsh1t then we can leave it there.

But I can tell you here and now they won't be. 

They'll want to know why their world is about to be turned upside down. Why they have to leave the only home they have ever known. Why can't their parents just fix things up. Why have they been catapulted into this world of uncertainty. ~They'll want to know who is responsible. They will desperately try to see if they can make a difference by bringing us back together again. When one of us has upset the other in the past they are quick to text us to tell us exactly what they think (and are remarkably honest and even handed about it). 

I actually think that treating the kids like adults and letting them know what is going on and answering all of their questions fairly and honestly will help them cope with it and move on far far better than spinning them a line because having the honest conversation is too difficult for the adults in the room. 

So if you were in my shoes, and your kids came to you and said "why can't you get back together with Mom - or at least give it a try?" what would you say? There are basically 3 ways to reply to that question
1. don't give a straight answer - "these things are difficult" blah, blah, blah
2. lie - say you have mutually decided that it just isn't going to work out when that's not actually what you think
3. tell the truth - whilst you respect their mother and her decision, it was her decision to leave and she does not think thing can be repaired. I would also add that their mother is a good person and made an honest decision based on what she thought was best. 

I honestly think that 3 is the healthiest answer for everyone - but I would be interested in your opinion.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I would be honest. I was with mine when they asked why i was so sad. 

I basically said something to the effect that i had made mistakes and made mum unhappy so she has decided we shouldnt be together anymore. Then the usual both love you and be here for you stuff. 

They are bright kids and could see there was trouble coming. I couldn't face lying to them so i didn't.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> I would be honest. I was with mine when they asked why i was so sad.
> 
> I basically said something to the effect that i had made mistakes and made mum unhappy so she has decided we shouldnt be together anymore. Then the usual both love you and be here for you stuff.
> 
> They are bright kids and could see there was trouble coming. I couldn't face lying to them so i didn't.


Thanks. That's comforting to hear in a strange way.

Just had the 15 year old asking lots of probing questions - she has worked out what is going on. And as I said, she was not satisfied with the "sometimes adults don't get on" line. And no, I didn't demonize her mother - I told her what a wonderful woman she is. 

Oh, and the STBXW told me how changeable I was. So the 180 is clearly not working - I am coming across as a bit of a maniac rather than someone with detached cool. Must work on that.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

she's 15, she lives with you both, she ain't stupid

if she wants the divorce done so quickly why have you got to admit to unreasonable behaviour, why can't she? 

It's actually what we did - he thought we would separate for two years but I found TAM and decided I wanted to cut the cord totally. Because it was him leaving I told him we were going to do it quick, all the wording was standard and fairly benign and he agreed to it

Paid him half the equity in the house even though he barely contributed but hey, that's all he's got in the world, he's already spent about half of it in less than a year - good luck sunbeam!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

I always chuckle when you refer to him as Tosspot.


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

dude i just read your thread you need to sit down with the kids with or without her and let them know the truth, they DESERVE it!


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Preferaby with though


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

Conrad said:


> I always chuckle when you refer to him as Tosspot.


Well that IS his name


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Dollystanford said:


> Well that IS his name


I looked it up and spit coffee on my monitor while reading it.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

terrence4159 said:


> dude i just read your thread you need to sit down with the kids with or without her and let them know the truth, they DESERVE it!


Yeah, it's going to happen, probably this W/E. We just need to agree the script. She is still concerned that she will look bad if she is honest enough to say that she is the one who has unilaterally decided to leave and that she is the one who has ruled out any attempts at reconciliation. How can I spout the "we both think its for the best" bullsh1t line with any integrity? And how can I then answer the obvious follow up question "won;t you give it another try?" when I am willing to do that?

Is it just me, or is she more concerned about not looking bad than she is about giving her own children the open, honest answers that they need in order to be able to deal with this as well as they can? Thinks it's all about the blame game.

Oh, and for anyone who still thinks that this is about vilification and blame, I more or less had the conversation with my daughter last night - or as far as I could go without actually saying anything definitive - and I praised my STBX to the skies. I told my daughter that no matter what she was a wonderful woman and that I had nothing but respect and admiration for her.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

Yes that is clearly what she's more concerned with and unfortunately it speaks volumes about her. You have to do what's best for your kids, even if you don't like it or they don't like it - it's part of what makes parenting such a challenge.

If this was a mutual decision then fair enough but it isn't - she made her decision, now she has to own it!

Sorry that sounded a bit American but you know what I'm saying har har


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Dollystanford said:


> Yes that is clearly what she's more concerned with and unfortunately it speaks volumes about her. You have to do what's best for your kids, even if you don't like it or they don't like it - it's part of what makes parenting such a challenge.
> 
> If this was a mutual decision then fair enough but it isn't - she made her decision, now she has to own it!
> 
> Sorry that sounded a bit American but you know what I'm saying har har


It's classic blameshifting...I'm the evil one because I am trying to make her look bad, blah blah blah. How do you deal with that?

Need to sort out a lawyer today. Also am going to hospital later on for first of my rather frightening procedures. She doesn't actually want to come to the hospital to support me through it (far too busy, apparently) but she wants to come pick me up afterwards. Is that just trying to look good without actually being bothered to do any good or am I being too cynical?

Can I just say I value your opinions and your support Dollystanford. Thank you very much.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Whether she looks bad isn't your problem anymore. That's how to deal with it. If honesty and integrity are important to you then keep true to that. It could be a fine line between truth and vilification but you seem fully aware of that already.

In my case, in my depression, I caused most of the marital issues so in the talk I made sure to take fair blame and said they shouldn't blame Mum for things. But even then, falling apart, I wasn't ok with portraying it as a mutual decision when it was anything but. I was and still am willing to put the work in so like you say why should I have said I wasn't. 

Besides I was in pieces and not doing very well covering it up. They would have seen straight through any bull and then I could have added liar to my list of failings.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> It's classic blameshifting...I'm the evil one because I am trying to make her look bad, blah blah blah. How do you deal with that?
> 
> Need to sort out a lawyer today. Also am going to hospital later on for first of my rather frightening procedures. She doesn't actually want to come to the hospital to support me through it (far too busy, apparently) but she wants to come pick me up afterwards. Is that just trying to look good without actually being bothered to do any good or am I being too cynical?
> 
> Can I just say I value your opinions and your support Dollystanford. Thank you very much.


KC is right, it's not your problem. Although you could just say 'it's your behaviour that's making you look bad, not me'. She has to take some responsibility

As for your procedures, I suspect she is probably frightened too but rather than grow a pair (so to speak) and stand beside you like she should, she would rather shut it out and leave it until after you've been through it alone to deal with you. I'm not sure she's doing it deliberately but she sounds pretty weak to me. 

Good luck, hope it goes ok


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

ps I would put you on to my lawyer who was bloody awesome but I think you are the wrong side of London town


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Dollystanford said:


> ps I would put you on to my lawyer who was bloody awesome but I think you are the wrong side of London town


I don't care. Please PM me to recommend


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Whoa!!! Just had a big moment. Just found out who the EA/PA was with....a guy she was at school with and has been in contact with for a few years via the local (non-UK) version of Friends Reunited. I vaguely knew about him a while ago when she was delighted to have found him again. Clearly they have been getting on like a house on fire. 

She has just cut him off absolutely dead and he has started desperately sending her lovesick messages via, shall we say, less secure routes.

Don;t know what to do - whether to show my hand by exposing right now or whether to keep this in my back pocket. I think the guy has a wife and kids, but I can't trace them immediately. He is not in the UK but in her home country - although she went back home a few weekends ago (just after dropping the D-bomb on me) and she saw him then. She actually spent a lot of time talking to me about the restaurant he was going to take her to - showed me the website and everything. With hindsight this was a poor liar's over-elaborate bit of distraction. I know that she was back in her parent's flat by around midnight - and presumably in his hotel room rather than the restaurant for the evening.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

I tend to have different view on exposure to our US buddies - I think you need to keep this in your pocket for a while. She's already accusing you of trying to make her look bad and until you've got all your ducks lined up it would be too easy for her to come up with plausible explanations

If anything, the evidence gathering should be primarily for you - to make you decide whether you want to even bother trying or whether the marriage is well and truly dead


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Scorch The Earth or completely Let Her Go. No in betweens.

I chose option #2. But at that point I didn't care whether my marriage survived or not.

If you have any interest in exposure and pressing the Nuke Button I would suggest you start a sub thread on the CWI section just to get an idea on people's opinions on going that route. You'll get immediate responses. From what I have read - you don't hold on to that card. If you have it ready - you use it.

At the same time, I understand what DS is saying.

Keep us posted!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Dollystanford said:


> I tend to have different view on exposure to our US buddies - I think you need to keep this in your pocket for a while. She's already accusing you of trying to make her look bad and until you've got all your ducks lined up it would be too easy for her to come up with plausible explanations
> 
> If anything, the evidence gathering should be primarily for you - to make you decide whether you want to even bother trying or whether the marriage is well and truly dead


I think you're right. My instinct is to bide my time now that I know it's over - it's not getting in the way of anything ATM. I also want to see what, if any, leverage my lawyer can extract from it. My instinct is to insist that he gets named in the divorce papers and see how much that gets them running around in circles. I know that she is afraid of that because she made an odd "out of the blue" statement the other day about not dragging anyone else into this. It rang alarm bells at the time but I wasn't sure who she was talking about. 

Meanwhile I think his wife deserves to know (if indeed he is married). I'm working on it. Her BFF in her home country knew about all of this - they were all at school together. She's a bitter divorcee who is one of the cheerleaders who has been pushing my wife to jump for some time. Well, I'm going to try to get her ex-husband to help me track this guys wife down. Some sort of irony in all of that!

Another thing that has really upset me today. No, make that annoyed me. About 10 years ago my STBXW had an EA at work. I stopped it (I think) just as it was going physical. Texts with photos sent late at night (didn't see them - she claims it was just her hands!), condom (stolen from me!) in handbag. The AP was a scumbag French guy who was just preying on young married women. Anyway, he left the company and the country almost immediately (so didn't mind sh!tting on his own doorstep as he was on the way out) so all forgotten and in the past. Or so I thought. Just found out that they linked up on LinkedIn in November. 

Sorry for venting again - but it is very helpful in helping me to get over her!


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

ReGroup said:


> Scorch The Earth or completely Let Her Go. No in betweens.


Aye. But the really masterful thing is to scorch the earth at a time of your choosing when you can get maximum advantage from it.

I'll expose. But at a time of my choosing, when I can get the most out of it.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

V,

In light of your last post, I would definitely just keep all the information to yourself now because it really isn't useful for you now and it wouldn't really change the outcome of all this

Definitely contact the OMW at some point though. She deserves to know what a piece of shat her husband is


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Toffer said:


> and it wouldn't really change the outcome of all this


It certainly wouldn't change anything if exposed now - it would be a grenade blowing up harmlessly against a steel-reinforced bunker. However, with 180 and other factors it may possibly have more impact in the future. 

Certainly a bit more subtlety of approach being shown here than on some other threads where people just say "expose! expose! expose!"



Toffer said:


> Definitely contact the OMW at some point though. She deserves to know what a piece of shat her husband is


I will if I can find her. But I won't expose to her until I am ready to expose at this end, even though the news might not leak as my W has cut off all contact with AP - for now.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

I have arranged for the AP to receive a message asking him whether he gave a second thought to the children he was harming when his selfish actions were causing their family to break up, catapulting them innocently into a whole world of pain and uncertainty. Whether he thought of his own children while he was doing that. And what his family will think when they find out.

My STBXW has cut him off with no contact (not sure whether she has done with him or whether this is on the advice of lawyers - she can be pretty ruthless when she wants to be) but this should keep him sidelined for a while, if not permanently. From what I can gather/remember he is a nice family man, 3 kids, so telling him what harm he has done should resonate. I hope the remorse eats him up inside. 

And, hey, if he is dumb enough to reply begging not to be exposed, so much the better. More evidence.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Voltaire

If anything your wife's past and current transgressions show you what a truly lousy person and wife she is.

In American slang she is a loser.

No matter what when you are ready dump her.

Focus on you and your kids. And go find a good woman who appreciates life, honesty, family and committment.

Hey, I know of a great woman on the other side of London Town who looks like Emma Peel. Maybe she is available???

Stay focused.

HM64


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

Voltaire - that's fine, but don't forget that she's the one that has done this to your marriage. She's the one that made her vows to you. I know that you aren't absolving her of blame but be careful not to focus too much on him. That's his wife's job when you expose him 

Oh Happyman, ever the cupid


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> If anything your wife's past and current transgressions show you what a truly lousy person and wife she is.


Thanks Happyman. But you know what - she's not an evil person, she's just someone who is damaged and extremely immature emotionally who made/makes some very unhealthy choices that end up hurting those around her.

I can almost her hear you wondering why I'm being so soft on her. But here's why. It takes emotional energy to have a bad opinion of someone. You get angry or upset or whatever when you think of them, and you just keep thinking of them. And every time you think of them you have an emotional response to them - you remind yourself what a bad person they are and what they have done and you get upset all over again. Not only does that take energy that you could be using far more productively, but all the time you're stuck in this cycle of thinking and reacting and getting upset you are actually clinging on to that person. 

Far better to let them drift off quietly, thinking neither particularly well nor particularly badly of them and not investing any of your emotions at all in maintaining your view of them (or thinking about them too much). Just let them goooooooooooooo

Easier said than done, of course, but that's my aim. 





happyman64 said:


> Focus on you and your kids. And go find a good woman who appreciates life, honesty, family and committment.


Absolutely





happyman64 said:


> Hey, I know of a great woman on the other side of London Town who looks like Emma Peel. Maybe she is available???


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Dollystanford said:


> Voltaire - that's fine, but don't forget that she's the one that has done this to your marriage. She's the one that made her vows to you. I know that you aren't absolving her of blame but be careful not to focus too much on him. That's his wife's job when you expose him


Thanks. I'm really just having a bit of fun with him as well as putting a blocking move on him to stop him coming back again. I just want him off the playing field, hopefully in a ditch somewhere feeling very sorry for himself and scared sh1tless of exposure. 

Having arranged for him to be sent a message saying that he had broken up someone else's marriage I did wonder for a second about doing the same to my STBXW - getting someone to send her a message asking whether she thought about the damage she was doing to his family! 

Two reasons not to:
1. outcome is too unpredictable - if I do something I want to ensure that I can take advantage of it rather than just doing something purely to hit the guilty, and if I can't predict the reaction then I can't capitalise on it.
2. I am still not absolutely sure about his family status.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Voltaire

If your approach works for you then who am I to disagree with you.

And I never said your wife is evil. Lousy - yes. A liar - yes. But not evil.

But a mother's infidelity hurts the children to which I know you are aware of. 

Sadly, your wife is not.

I wish happier days for you in the future.

And yes Dolly I will accept the Cupid comment. It is Valentines Day today in the U.S. you know. 💘

Cheers to my friends across the pond.

HM64


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> Voltaire
> 
> If your approach works for you then who am I to disagree with you.


Hey, happyman, thanks a lot. 

Yeah, it's for me. It's all to help me detach and move on. To save my emotional energy to focus on positive things that help push me forward rather than on negative things that just hang around like bad smells! 




happyman64 said:


> But a mother's infidelity hurts the children to which I know you are aware of.


ooooh, yes. But in the blameshifting fog apparently someone else made her have the EA/PA so it's their fault. Or the husband's. Or God's. But definitely not the WAW's. She is a pure victim. 





happyman64 said:


> And yes Dolly I will accept the Cupid comment. It is Valentines Day today in the U.S. you know. 💘
> 
> Cheers to my friends across the pond.
> 
> HM64


Cheers to you to! And yes it's valentines day here too. I thought it would be tough to face and that I would be reminding everyone that in fact Saint Valentine died a nasty, bloody death. I thought I would feel very sour and bitter when I saw all the young lovers with their roses and hearts. But in fact I see them and I smile and I wish them well. Strangely, my heart is not infected with the bitterness that permeates my STBXW's. Funnily enough, she decided to leave but it seems that she is the one who is stuck emotionally in the marriage, stuck with all those old feelings, whilst I am at least beginning to move on. It's tough, but I have moments when my heart feels quite light again.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Good for you Voltaire.

Just think how light you will feel when all the rubbish s behind you.....


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

I also don't begrudge those in love - my ex was only romantic for the first few years until he got the ring on my finger and then it stopped 

A woman I work with got flowers today from her husband who's been having an affair for two years. So sometimes it's a hollow gesture anyway

I bought myself new shoes instead


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

I called her on the EA/PA this morning. She came home last night with a face like thunder and was dark and broody all evening - frightened the kids. I thought she knew that I knew.

Anyway, the conversation was a classic of WAW denial, blame shifting and rewriting of history, although her ice cold tone throughout was, well, chilling. She said that it was just a friendship, she had done nothing wrong, there was nothing wrong or inappropriate about it and that she didn't even understand why I was getting upset about it. I said that our marriage didn't stand a chance whilst she was pouring her heart out to posOM and that I had no way of improving things when she was telling him and not me about everything that was wrong in our marriage. She said our marriage was already dead at that point anyway - something that was very much NOT the case based on conversations with friends that she was having at the time (and that I have subsequently learnt of). 

Shrugs and denial. I knew what to expect from all my reading on here, but I still just couldn't believe it. 

I repeated something I had said before,that she had had an emotional affair. I told her to Google it. She turns around and says that she already had and that "there is no such thing". She then ice coldly informs me that the law doesn't recognise an EA so that it doesn't matter.

She then claims that her AP is now hassling her and that she has threatened to contact the police.

I know her well enough to know that behind that frosty exterior is a whole world of pain. A little later she was giggling with my daughter and singing along loudly and brightly to pop songs. It was classic "I'm pretending I'm ok even though I'm not" behaviour. I was just sitting there and listening thinking "a lot of this is for my benefit but I know you're in so much pain inside right now". I'm ashamed to admit that part of me was, well, not exactly glad but satisfied (if that makes sense) to know that she was suffering.

During the conversation I also let her know that this was the final straw as far as I was concerned and that I was through with her. She pretended she didn't care, said that we were already getting divorced anyway so what difference did it make. But I would like to think that rejection still hurts and that when you go from being the one doing the rejecting to being the one who is rejected then everything changes. That's what lies behind the 180. Maybe I'm kidding myself but the thought makes me feel better. 

Speaking of 180, I stepped that up last night. I put a series of post it notes on my wall with things that I am going to do for myself. It's not "in her face" but she will see it at some point, probably quite soon. But it's not just for show. The fact that I know that she will have seen it means that I have to follow through. And every time I do follow through on something on that list then both she and I will know that I have just taken another step away from her and another step into MY future.



EDIT: Oh, another piece of breathtaking denial and WAW doublethink. She confirmed that he does have a wife and kids. So I said that I hoped that she was glad that her actions were in danger of ripping apart two families. But no - apparently nothing she has done has damaged his family at all. On the other hand, if I name him in the divorce then apparently I will be responsible for destroying his marriage.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Just make sure you actually ARE doing it for you not her.

It's so easy to fool yourself that you are when in fact your still hooked on getting a reaction from her (stares at self in mirror).

If you are done, what she does or doesnt see matters not at all. What she thinks.. The same. Only person whose opinion of you that really matters is yourself.

The reminders to yourself are cool. I do that too but its on my phone just for me.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> Just make sure you actually ARE doing it for you not her.
> 
> It's so easy to fool yourself that you are when in fact your still hooked on getting a reaction from her (stares at self in mirror).
> 
> ...


You're absolutely right, KC.

I just remembered those motivational tricks where if you tell lots of people that you are going to do something then you are much more likely to do it as you know that lots of people will think that you are very flakey if you do not. I just came up with my own version of it. Tell the STBXW that you are doing something to get over her. If you don't do it then she wins double time - you have flaked on your commitment to yourself and you are still hanging on to her. And she'll know it. The idea of her laughing at you should provide more than enough motivation. 

I have to admit, though, that amongst all the items on the list there is one there that is listed just for her benefit - something she never knew that I did. I just want her to ask me about it.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Heh, intrigued at that last bit.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> Heh, intrigued at that last bit.


LOL.

That's exactly the reaction she's supposed to have!


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Someone slap me please.

I keep finding myself trying to convince myself that I am over-reacting and that the EA was just a harmless friendship. He was in a different country and they were just texting each other from a distance so where is the harm with that.

Please shoot me and remind me how corrosive an EA is for a marriage, how trust has been breached, how damaging all the secrecy is, how for every notch the AP goes up in the WS's estimation the poor old H or W goes down 3 notches and that trying to convince you that it was all just innocent (and somehow your fault for "not being there" which isn't true anyway) is simply the latest in a long line of lies and manipulations. 

Please tell me that, because I'm typing those words, my brain knows that they are true and yet still somehow keep veering towards thinking that there was no real harm in it.


Also, how long before a WW begins to come out of denial and to admit to herself that the EA was emotionally significant to her, that it played a part in the downfall of the marriage, that it was an active choice that she made (and not an accident or something that she was forced into) and that it was hurtful and deceitful? Or will she just stonewall and say that she did nothing wrong and that I am pathetic to be upset about it?  [Actually she won't have the chance to keep saying that because I am not going to raise it again. 180 all the way].


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

The day my ex left, he told me that he had been talking to other women on the internet, had even met some of them for drinks. Swore blind that he hadn't had sex with anyone else. In my naivety I thought that was the key issue - oh well he hasn't physically stuck it in someone else therefore it's not that bad

Wrong. For two years prior to that I'd be so lonely in my marriage, wondering why he was always on his phone, why we stopped speaking, why it seemed like he was using every excuse under the sun to come home late or stay away just another night. This man, who had once been my best friend and who had described me to his mother the day he met me as 'the woman he was going to marry' changed beyond recognition. He walked away from 13 years like it was nothing, splashed his new relationship (with his new soulmate) all over FB, badgered me for months for the money for the house and then ignored me for months, has seen the child he was a father to for 13 years about six times in a year. 

If you asked me two years ago whether I'd be more worried about a PA or an EA I would have said the former, now I'm positive it's the latter


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Dollystanford said:


> If you asked me two years ago whether I'd be more worried about a PA or an EA I would have said the former, now I'm positive it's the latter


I agree. The emotional intensity seems to be cranked up to make up for the lack of sex. And of course it is all chaste and pure and so more idealised.

Mind you, I'm still not entirely convinced the EA didn't become a PA.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Volt
It does not matter if it was ea or pa.

She gave herself to someone else. She opened your marriage to a third party.
She has lied and cheated not only on you but to herself.

What else do you really need to know to be ok with your own actions....
Protect yourself.
Protect your kids.
Separate yourself from her infidelities.

That is all you are doing.

Do not focus on what she says but on what she does. Her actions will not lie.

And your wife seems to be walking away.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> I agree. The emotional intensity seems to be cranked up to make up for the lack of sex. And of course it is all chaste and pure and so more idealised.
> 
> Mind you, I'm still not entirely convinced the EA didn't become a PA.


Nor am I...in fact I'm of the firm opinion that he lied to my face and continues to do so in order to hold on to the notion that he's not a bad guy really and that we just drifted apart. Whatever helps you sleep at night a-hole
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> Volt
> It does not matter if it was ea or pa.


Agreed. I always thought that i would absolutely obsess about it over and over again if she ever slept with another man. Now, it barely seems to matter. 



happyman64 said:


> She gave herself to someone else. She opened your marriage to a third party.


That is a very good way of putting it. Thanks for that.




happyman64 said:


> And your wife seems to be walking away.


I don't really know what she is doing and I'm not really sure that she does either. I think that she is pulled in both directions, with the overwhelming tide going out. She called me today on a small housekeeping matter that could easily have been dealt with by text. If we had had an argument in our pre-crisis life then making that call would have been an overture - reaching out to me to say "I'm sorry and I want to be friends again" without actually having to say those words (too frightening to her to admit she is sorry without knowing that she is forgiven). Clearly its not that in this case, but it is a form of reaching out. 

I did the whole 180 thing, kept it friendly and businesslike and got her off the phone like I would a pesky salesman. But I would like to think that she is feeling a bit of remorse and that there is still some tenderness in her heart for me. No-one likes to feel that they mean absolutely nothing to another human being.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

I thought I would share a technique I have discovered when you just can't get her out of your head......

1. Focus right in on whatever it is about her (or him!) that you are thinking about.....that piece of jewellery, that dress, the smile, the way she does something......in the movie in your head (if you are visualising this) zoom right in on that aspect.

2. if you can, change something about what you are focusing on - change its colour or its texture or the way the hands move or the hips swing.

3. Now zoom right out again....but this time make whatever it is you are thinking about part of a completely different woman.


So, if you find your mind wandering to that red dress, turn the dress blue and put it on a different woman

If you are thinking about that piece of jewellery you bought her, focus in on the jewellery, change it a bit, and then zoom out to an image of a different woman wearing it

If you are obsessing about her scent, focus in on it and then imagine some other woman wearing the same scent


I find this helpful and I hope others do to. 

I'm really dreading this weekend.


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## DumpedAgain (Feb 14, 2013)

Excellent tips

I am just a few weeks into the horror of divorce. I need
anything and everything to stop obsessing

thanks


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> I thought I would share a technique I have discovered when you just can't get her out of your head......
> 
> 1. Focus right in on whatever it is about her (or him!) that you are thinking about.....that piece of jewellery, that dress, the smile, the way she does something......in the movie in your head (if you are visualising this) zoom right in on that aspect.
> 
> ...


Do not dread the weekend. Embrace it. Make of it what you want it to be. With or without her.

When you really think of these past few months i do not think she has been a part of your life that much at all.

Remembr this:
It was not your choice. It was not your decision.

*The only person you can control is you!*

So take back control of your life......


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> Do not dread the weekend. Embrace it. Make of it what you want it to be. With or without her.
> 
> When you really think of these past few months i do not think she has been a part of your life that much at all.
> 
> ...


Thanks, HM - wise and helpful, as ever


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Well since our bust up yesterday, when I called her on the EA and I essentially told her that I was through with her, she has acted incredibly angry and hurt. Funny, since the divorce is what she wanted. Sure is unhappy for someone whose wish is coming true.

Has the dumper become the dumpee? Is this an "oh sh1t, what have I done?" moment for her?

I'm just going through my 180 routine. MEanwhile her long unexplained absence today (12 noon until after 10pm) is upsetting the kids. I'm pretty sure that she hasn't had sex with anyone (and the EA AP is abroad).


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Focus on you and the kids. Ignore her antics.

And get some sleep.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Could be oh ****. Could be oh **** my plan B though.

Let her spin.


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

voltaire contact the OMW asap you would want someone to tell you and give her all the infromation, that will filter back to you WW and show her you know tons more than she knows and she will be at a loss, right now she thinks you are clueless this will slap her into reality that you are ahead of her.

again sorry for whats happening to you i really am, been sheated on myself, remarried never been happier


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> Could be oh ****. Could be oh **** my plan B though.


Well, she torched her Plan B when she asked for a divorce.....or maybe she thought she didn't, maybe she thought I would still hang around for her.



K.C. said:


> Let her spin.


Completely. She's stewing in her own juice, I'm having fun with the kids.....and making sure that I laugh a lot, and very loudly!

I would say that it's not quite working to plan for her. Still, she might just put her head down and charge ahead as rapidly as she can towards divorce, trying to hit life head on through sheer willpower rather than stopping and thinking for a minute why she is so miserable. And the chorus of dried up old divorcees who all cheer when another married woman joins their bitter ranks will cheer her all the way.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

Well speaking as one divorcee (but not dried up!) I never cheer when another joins the ranks as I know how devastating and heartbreaking it is

Funnily enough, even though my ex was the one who wanted to divorce it was him still giving it the 'I love you' and 'I never thought this would happen' crap five months down the line

What they mean is 'I never thought you'd have the guts to get on with it and follow through'

Unlucky suckers!


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Dollystanford said:


> Well speaking as one divorcee (but not dried up!) I never cheer when another joins the ranks as I know how devastating and heartbreaking it is


Aaah, but you're not one who has walked out in search of some "Eat, Pray, Love" "want to be alone" fantasy or imagining that the hot sex you get 2 months into an affair is going to last for years.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

So, we seem to have the battle of the 180s today. She is resolutely cheerful, getting on with getting her financial records together. Also went to get her hair colored. Why am I still paying her money every month so she can look good for other men? Not for much longer, subject to what my lawyer says.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

It's called fake it till you make it.

You do the same.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> It's called fake it till you make it.
> 
> You do the same.....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh I am, HM, I am!

Except there is less fake with me than with her. 

I do find myself sadly remembering the good times, and I remember the sweet girl I fell in love with....but I think that that is part of the mourning process.

I was thinking about writing her a note saying that she had been pushing me away from 6 months and that I was now nearly over the horizon, but if she wanted to talk..... She really didn't realize that she was pushing me away - she didn't have the strength to say "please give me love and attention" so she did things to try to get a reaction out of me. Anyway, realized that chasing her like that would be dumb, particularly so soon.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Don't write her a note! Yes...it's dumb!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Voltaire said:


> I do find myself sadly remembering the good times, and I remember the sweet girl I fell in love with....but I think that that is part of the mourning process.
> 
> I was thinking about writing her a note saying that she had been pushing me away from 6 months and that I was now nearly over the horizon, but if she wanted to talk.....


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

I need some of those 2x4s dumped on my head as well.

Don't send the note.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Thanks guys.

I love the tough love and common sense you get on here!!

There is no substitute!


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

Don't send her a note! It just makes you look weak. I wrote plenty of notes in my head to my ex, didn't send one of them. I still had some pride left - the day he left I did beg him not to leave and I was even angry at myself for doing that, despite the fact that it was because of the shock

Because we still had to be in a little contact about the house, etc. I did get the opportunity to get a few digs in - but they were much more calm and controlled. He once sent me a text saying 'I'm so sorry I've hurt you' and I sent back 'don't feel sorry on my account, I was utterly miserable with you' - KERPOW!

haha


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Dollystanford said:


> Don't send her a note! It just makes you look weak. I wrote plenty of notes in my head to my ex, didn't send one of them. I still had some pride left - the day he left I did beg him not to leave and I was even angry at myself for doing that, despite the fact that it was because of the shock


The note I wrote in my head wasn't begging. It was leaving the door open. It was going to say that everything that she has done over the past 6 months has pushed me away and that I am preparing mentally, emotionally and financially for life without her. We are set on a certain course. If she's happy with that course, then fine. If that wasn't quite how she wanted this to go, then she can come and talk.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Volt

You are throwing your wife an olive branch. She will think you are begging.

She should be the one to throw you an olive branch but she won't because she is selfish.

No notes. At this time it will only make you look weaker. And in her frame of mind that is bad.

You should be skipping for joy. You should be that happy go lucky guy that you were when she first met you.


Keep a positive outlook on your future.

And "Let Her Go" should be your new motto because why focus on someone that s only focused n themselves.

Does it suck? Yes.
Do you have a choice? No.

But once you accept she is leaving the quicker you can heal. And only then will she take notice of you. Sad but true.

Be strong.

HM64


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> Volt
> 
> You are throwing your wife an olive branch. She will think you are begging.
> 
> ...


HM64, you are, of course, right.

But I don;t think she really wants a divorce and I don't want one either. I just want there to be an olive branch from somewhere and I do not think that she is emotionally capable of holding it out. By that I don;t mean that she is selfish or a b1tch, but more that she finds it impossible to show that degree of emotional vulnerability. 

But you are right - she won't take any notice until she sees me as strong (and desirable) and not as a whiner who is chasing her.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Voltaire said:


> The note I wrote in my head wasn't begging. It was leaving the door open. It was going to say that everything that she has done over the past 6 months has pushed me away and that I am preparing mentally, emotionally and financially for life without her. We are set on a certain course. If she's happy with that course, then fine. If that wasn't quite how she wanted this to go, then she can come and talk.


Her emotional center will interpret that as clingy, needy, and desperate.

Quit talking to her like she's a man.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Quit talking to her like she's a man.


Now that is excellent advice.

Thank you


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Volt

Have you downloaded and read the book "No More Mr Nice Guy" or "Married Mans Sex Life Primer" ???

These are must reads and yes you got the point of my earlier message.

No whining. Be strong. Be assertive.

And listen to Conrad!


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> Volt
> 
> Have you downloaded and read the book "No More Mr Nice Guy" or "Married Mans Sex Life Primer" ???


About 80% of the way through MMSL. A good book and a real eye opener.

Do I need the other one if I have read this?

Also, what about "Divorce Busting?2 Is it worth reading that if you have read online about the 180?




happyman64 said:


> These are must reads and yes you got the point of my earlier message.


Only wish I was such a quick learner before the divorce talk started!!

I'm doing the right things, but I guess I have to give them more than a couple of days to work! I just don't want to miss the opportunity if it arises - especially given that I seem to have missed so many other signals.



happyman64 said:


> No whining. Be strong. Be assertive.
> 
> And listen to Conrad!


Absolutely!!


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

She's angry and unreasonable tonight. Oh, thank you, my former love - you being a hatchet faced, miserable old b1tch really helps me to get over you.

Why is she angry and unreasonable? Well, she emailed me mid afternoon "informing" me that she was going out on a particular evening. I emailed back asking whether this was her way of asking me whether I would be available then to look after the kids. Cue over-reaction, sense of humor failure and over the top "I've no signed up with a babysitting agency so going out will never be a problem". 

All ya had to do was ask politely. Not that hard, is it? Was I really that much of a walkover when we were married? Not sure I was, but I'm certainly not now.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Voltaire said:


> She's angry and unreasonable tonight. Oh, thank you, my former love - you being a hatchet faced, miserable old b1tch really helps me to get over you.
> 
> Why is she angry and unreasonable? Well, she emailed me mid afternoon "informing" me that she was going out on a particular evening. I emailed back asking whether this was her way of asking me whether I would be available then to look after the kids. Cue over-reaction, sense of humor failure and over the top "I've no signed up with a babysitting agency so going out will never be a problem".
> 
> All ya had to do was ask politely. Not that hard, is it? Was I really that much of a walkover when we were married? Not sure I was, but I'm certainly not now.


NO SARCASM.

All you say is, I have plans that evening. (even if you don't)


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

...plans to not be a doormat


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

zillard said:


> ...plans to not be a doormat


NOTHING is more beta than playing doormat babysitter while she hangs from the chandelier with posOM.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> She's angry and unreasonable tonight. Oh, thank you, my former love - you being a hatchet faced, miserable old b1tch really helps me to get over you.
> 
> Why is she angry and unreasonable? Well, she emailed me mid afternoon "informing" me that she was going out on a particular evening. I emailed back asking whether this was her way of asking me whether I would be available then to look after the kids. Cue over-reaction, sense of humor failure and over the top "I've no signed up with a babysitting agency so going out will never be a problem".
> 
> All ya had to do was ask politely. Not that hard, is it? Was I really that much of a walkover when we were married? Not sure I was, but I'm certainly not now.


You are learning.....


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

It really is over now......

So she lies in bed last night for 2 hours quite blatantly texting some other guy. Finally, just after midnight, when I have been trying to sleep for 45 minutes I grab the phone.

Big bust up. Ugly words (mostly from me). I refuse to give the phone back. She says that this is threatening and intimidating behaviour. Eldest child hears, gets incredibly upset.

Anyway, after everything calms down after some considerable time and we lie in bed together and start talking. She paints this picture of me as a horrible, intimidating, controlling freak. Apparently I control the length of her skirts (might have made a comment once) and where she goes and who she sees (errr, isn't it normal that married couples tell each other what they're up to?). She says she's willing to take her portion of the blame, but quite clearly the victim chair puts all the blame on me. 

Oh, and she said that she might have changed her mind if only I had wished her a happy birthday!

Now let's get this thing over and done with and move on. I think I'm nearly ready for that.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

And so the re-writing of history begins... you must prepare yourself now. Calm, cool, business-like. Don't allow her to perpetuate this idea of you as an intimidating bully. Start making moves to cut the cord, make sure the kids don't see any difference in your behaviour towards them. This is about the two of you. Good luck my London brother!

Ps changed her mind about what? Texting another guy whilst in bed with her husband????
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Dollystanford said:


> And so the re-writing of history begins... you must prepare yourself now. Calm, cool, business-like. Don't allow her to perpetuate this idea of you as an intimidating bully. Start making moves to cut the cord, make sure the kids don't see any difference in your behaviour towards them. This is about the two of you. Good luck my London brother!


Thanks. Still getting lawyers sorted out. Haven't talked to your guy yet. just need to get on with it and get it done now. I don;t think she is actually ready for it, even though she is saying "bring it on"

As for rewriting history, that is in her head and for the benefit of her audience - her friends and family. They can think what they like. 





Dollystanford said:


> Ps changed her mind about what? Texting another guy whilst in bed with her husband????
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That was all just pathetic "look at me" behaviour. Glad I called her on it, although I could have done it better. Pretty sure she was stringing along some guy she has just met in order to get a reaction out of me.

Interesting she is still clinging to the line that an EA is nothing wrong because it isn't recognised in law.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

Well of course if you want to D straight away you have to cite adultery or irreconcilable differences. My ex agreed to 'take the blame' and we just used standard wording. Otherwise it's a two year wait...
She may know this, and know that she can hold it up that way
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Dollystanford said:


> Well of course if you want to D straight away you have to cite adultery or irreconcilable differences. My ex agreed to 'take the blame' and we just used standard wording. Otherwise it's a two year wait...
> She may know this, and know that she can hold it up that way
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


On the face of it she is pushing for D ASAP. Full of bravado, not sure if she really means it. She certainly thinks she does. Her lawyer has already asked me to take the blame and admit unreasonable behaviour. Nice.

With you was there any reason why your ex agreed to take the blame? Is there any convention on this - like the one asking for divorce taking the blame or vice-versa?


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

He left, he was trawling for other women, he couldn't afford a lawyer. I think it was the least he could do. He was a bit funny about it when he read it but he couldn't even look me in the eye so screw him, frankly
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

I've got that horrible hollow feeling that feels like someone has scooped out your insides and left your entrails on show.

Is that finally accepting that its over? I hope so. I need to have a little bit of mourning and then I need to move on. Quickly.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

she is prettypathetic volt.

You should have your attorney flip it around and base the divorce on her behavior....

do not get angry.
stay calm.
and keep a var on you at all times if she is trying to provoke.

protect yourself and your kids.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Sounds painful. Similar to how I felt when she was saying never.

Mourning the loss will take its own time, dont try to rush it. Make sure you confront and rectify the issues as they come up in the process.

Sounds like you'll be right in the end.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

It's a grieving process, you have to go through it. It takes some longer than others but you WILL come out the other side. There's no way you should accept responsibility, but if she won't then you'll still be married in two years time. Only you can decide whether that's what you want. Once my mind was made up I wanted it over as quickly as possible (my grieving period was v. short ha ha)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I don't see the advantage to you to have a quick divorce. A quick one puts you out of your house and away from your kids. It provides her with money and freedom to carry on with married men.

In your shoes I'd be paying a game of attrition, drag the divorce long and longer. If you must file, file to adultery and name the OM. That makes it two years in the UK right?

That's another two years in your home with your kids.

And during those two years cut off the financing of her lifestyle. Can the courts make you pay a cheating wife makeup, hair and nails money during the long dragged out D?

The best thing would be her getting a job, leaving and having to pay you child and house support.

Drag this out as long as you can while you live in your own house.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> Sounds painful. Similar to how I felt when she was saying never.


Reading your thread I think we are going through a lot of the same things. Chr!st knows I wasn't a perfect husband and bear a large part of the responsibility for things going wrong. I need to come to terms with that - and I have begun to. Funnily enough, I was just beginning to turn things around, and I think I really could have done it if we hadn't run out of runway. Now I'm making those changes for the next relationship. 

But boy is she giving me a good kicking now for everything I did wrong.


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## caladan (Nov 2, 2012)

One quick thing: Divorce her, or don't divorce her, but don't ever, EVER grab her phone again. 

You're dicing with domestic violence here. A more cynical person would have called the police on you immediately, and before you know it, you'd be hit with a restraining, and she would have the advantage in courts.

Again - refrain from any sort of physical gesture. It could get you in deep, deep doodoo.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Shaggy said:


> I don't see the advantage to you to have a quick divorce. A quick one puts you out of your house and away from your kids. It provides her with money and freedom to carry on with married men.


All true, but by the same token I don't want to hang on to something that is dead for 2 more years. I'm 48 and the clock is ticking. If this thing really can't be saved then better to clear the decks and start afresh ASAP. 

And I don;t want to put my kids through 2 years of parental warfare. I couldn't bear to do that to them - even if it means that I will see them less.

And my wife will be quite poor after the divorce. She earns a modest salary, although she will have the resources to buy a little apartment somewhere. And a 40-something woman with two teenage kids in tow isn't exactly an attractive proposition to many men.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

caladan said:


> One quick thing: Divorce her, or don't divorce her, but don't ever, EVER grab her phone again.
> 
> You're dicing with domestic violence here. A more cynical person would have called the police on you immediately, and before you know it, you'd be hit with a restraining, and she would have the advantage in courts.
> 
> Again - refrain from any sort of physical gesture. It could get you in deep, deep doodoo.


Thanks. Good advice


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

volitaire just my .02 cents she does want a divorce, you dont cheat and flaunt it in you h face (texting in bed) if you dont want out, get a lawyer quick today asap and site her cheating as the problem, sleep in another room or on the couch so you dont grab her phone again


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

terrence4159 said:


> volitaire just my .02 cents she does want a divorce, you dont cheat and flaunt it in you h face (texting in bed) if you dont want out, get a lawyer quick today asap and site her cheating as the problem, sleep in another room or on the couch so you dont grab her phone again


Thanks.

Yes, it was certainly designed to be in my face, but I'm really not sure whether she wanted to provoke a jealous reaction to know that I still had feelings for her or whether she wanted to say "It's over. Watch me move on." I suspect that, just like a lot of people doing the 180 on here, it was a bit of each. 

Have been speaking to lawyers today and am just going to focus on the process now.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Voltaire said:


> And my wife will be quite poor after the divorce. She earns a modest salary, although she will have the resources to buy a little apartment somewhere.


Not your problem.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Not your problem.


Oh, absolutely not. She's making her bed and she can lie in it - and she knows it. But apparently when she is "free" there will be unicorns and rainbows and everything will be wonderful.

I was just pointing out that she has no financial incentive to hurry things along.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Voltaire said:


> Oh, absolutely not. She's making her bed and she can lie in it - and she knows it. But apparently when she is "free" there will be unicorns and rainbows and everything will be wonderful.
> 
> I was just pointing out that she has no financial incentive to hurry things along.


Then you hurry things along.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Am doing. Lawyers appointed. Moving on as best I can. The future is frightening, but it is also an unwritten book.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

I preferred to see it as a new chapter beginning - a little scary but endless possibilities, no? I've been split for a year and divorced for six months and already done more than I did in the last six or seven years with him.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Dollystanford said:


> I preferred to see it as a new chapter beginning - a little scary but endless possibilities, no? I've been split for a year and divorced for six months and already done more than I did in the last six or seven years with him.


I can well imagine. The irony is that my STBXW is the one that says that she wants freedom - but I know that she will crash and burn with it. She will have very little money and although she dreams of finding the love of her life in fact her heart is so closed off that all she can do is suck love out of someone else rather than really loving someone in return. And as soon as things get a bit rocky then all the "closing down" patterns that I lived with in our marriage will return and the guy will run a mile. I used to be like that, but I have learned to love myself and therefore to risk my heart. 

She can't even connect with her own kids during this very difficult time. It's heartbreaking. 

I'm just a little worried about money. My financial situation is not very stable at the moment, but I have no incentive to go out and find a well paid job just at the moment. But I will cope and I will survive. I will breathe the air of freedom and I will flourish.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

Yes all those patterns will just be repeated with someone else. I can see it happening with my ex. Everything's roses at the moment, I mean he did get £75k out of me after all. Once that's dried up (I'm predicting this year) then the problems start, because new girlfriend doesn't even have a job. Guess he gets to feel like the big man paying for everything which is all he wanted anyway. Ego can't cope with anything else

Freedom for me is utter joy - I wish everyone could feel the same


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Dollystanford said:


> Yes all those patterns will just be repeated with someone else. I can see it happening with my ex.


The irony is that she thinks she has really changed and that she is just getting rid of the negative things and people in her life (i.e. the marriage and me) in order to let her soar. 

What she doesn't realise is that the really brave decision - the decision someone who really had discovered themselves and opened their heart would have made - would be to try to make the marriage work - to actually make some changes rather than giving up and running away. I have asked her several times now "so, you were in this marriage that you hated - what did you do to make it better?". the only honest answer I got was "I didn't do anything. I gave up". 

I know that I have changed, that I realised what I did wrong in the marriage and take responsibility for it, and that I was fully prepared to rectify it. I was just beginning to, in fact, when she dropped the D-bomb on me. She can only blame shift and tell herself the fairy story that everything will be ok once she is out of this marriage.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

Your situation is exactly like mine - he thought I was the problem, he thought his life would suddenly magically improve when he left.

I told him the same thing, that he didn't sit me down and say 'i'm unhappy, how can we work together to improve things'. He just said 'I'm unhappy, I'm leaving' - selfish as always. I did tell him that after he'd sent me a boo hoo 'I've never stopped loving you' text. I told him it was easy to say when you're walking out of the door and that it meant nothing. 

Your wife may get it in a week or in a month or in a few years. By that time it will be too late - you will have already moved on!


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Dollystanford said:


> Your wife may get it in a week or in a month or in a few years. By that time it will be too late - you will have already moved on!


Mentally, my line in the sand is when the house is sold and the family broken up. That is the point at which it is irreversible. She may realise before that, she may realise after that point, she may never realise. And as you say, although that is my current line in the sand I may well have moved on by then myself. I hope so. In some ways the ideal basis for a relationship going forward would be for everyone to walk away and then voluntarily walk back again to start a whole new relationship based on a whole new way of being - everyone having realised what they miss.

But there has to be a genuine moving on and walking away first. And of course the likelihood of it happening is pretty low (and hanging on to the hope that it might happen pretty much makes it zero). So I move on...

Meanwhile, she says she sees absolutely nothing wrong with her lying in bed with me texting some other guy for 2 hours.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

and therein lies the issue. Whether or not she sees it as a problem is irrelevant...YOU see it as a problem, and she should have enough respect for you to understand that. Marriage is mutual respect and compromise and communication. If you haven't got that then you haven't got anything


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Dollystanford said:


> and therein lies the issue. Whether or not she sees it as a problem is irrelevant...YOU see it as a problem, and she should have enough respect for you to understand that. Marriage is mutual respect and compromise and communication. If you haven't got that then you haven't got anything


Yup. If I take what she has said to me at face value I just have two wonderful children and 17 years worth of lies to show. Apparently she never loved me and I was always a controlling, frightening ogre.

She keeps telling me "I am out at such and such a time". I keep saying "are you asking me to look after the kids at that time?" She explodes each time. She just doesn't get it. It just makes me laugh, though, because clearly she has to screw up all her courage just to blurt out this one simple thing - and it comes out as a bolshy instruction rather than as a reasoned request. Why can't she just ask?


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

The 'never loved you' seems so common from them it's ridiculous. How will they ever improve if they can't face the past.

Sounds like you're doing well now Vltaire, keep it up.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> The 'never loved you' seems so common from them it's ridiculous. How will they ever improve if they can't face the past.


It's really bizarre how they rewrite the past to justify their decisions (and why they feel the need to). 

Problem was she married me on the rebound from the love of her life (who, she claims, her parents prevented her from marrying). I thought she had forgotten that, but maybe not. Or maybe she kept comparing the "in love" rush she got during their brief, uncomplicated fling with how she feels about me after 17 years. She seems desperate to feel that again. 

She is a typical WAW who has convinced herself that all her problems will be over as soon as she is rid of me. The fog. And of course to justify this she has to paint me as the devil incarnate. I'm thinking about buying some horns!

Like you, I did things wrong in the marriage. Like you I was depressed and that doesn't make for a lot of joy in a relationship. I recognise that, I own it, and I take responsibility for it (even though it was a medical condition). Although she says she is prepared to accept responsibility for what she did wrong it sounds like in her head she has written herself the perfect victim script - and of course its all my fault. 




K.C. said:


> Sounds like you're doing well now Vltaire, keep it up.


Doing better, thanks. Things are getting clearer. They aren't how I want, but given the constraints I need to carve out the life I do want from the building blocks I have.

Buddhism teaches that all unhappiness and suffering comes from attachment - attachment to what we can't have, wishing the world were other than the way that it is. I'm just trying to accept how things are, work out what I want from my life going forward, and how I can make it happen.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Wondering whether relationship with OM (the one she texted for 2 hours the other night) is more serious than I thought. Daughter went to see her in bed last night. She was texting again and incredibly she didn't even stop to comfort a clearly upset daughter. And when the daughter asked her about the OM it wasn't "oh, he's nothing" or "you're more important than him - he's not anything in my life right now" but rather a "I can't discuss it now". 

Perhaps it really is just a little budding romance and she is deluded enough to think that she has met her soul-mate. Stranger things happen in the WAW fog. 

But you know what - I really genuinely don't care. I think about it and I don't even get the slightest pang of jealousy (and I am quite a jealous person). I just want to know how it will affect the kids and/or the settlement. 

Moving on.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

Wow, that's pretty cold...she's going to regret this, you know she is. My ex has pretty much ignored my daughter in the past year. And now she doesn't really care whether or not she sees him.

This will come back and bite her on the ass, I hope the OM is worth it (he won't be)


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Volt
Glad to see you getting it done.

Now comfort your kids and take comfort in them.

And ignore your STBXW.

You will be fine in god time.

HM


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Dollystanford said:


> Wow, that's pretty cold...she's going to regret this, you know she is. My ex has pretty much ignored my daughter in the past year. And now she doesn't really care whether or not she sees him.
> 
> This will come back and bite her on the ass, I hope the OM is worth it (he won't be)


Tosspot was never really all that smart.

He only made one good move - and blew it.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> Volt
> Glad to see you getting it done.
> 
> Now comfort your kids and take comfort in them.
> ...


Thanks HM. The right thing to say at the right time, as ever!

I *AM* drawing a lot of comfort from my kids ATM and my daughter from me (my son still doesn't know what s going on but he will do soon). 

I am getting closer to my kids and my wife seems to be driving them away. I take no pleasure in it, as my kids need two parents and the love of two parents, but she is so cold and self-absorbed that she just doesn't seem to be able to connect with them. She's planning on taking my daughter shopping to try to buy her affection (that's the way our D sees it) but she just doesn't understand that that isn't what her own D wants.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Dollystanford said:


> Wow, that's pretty cold...she's going to regret this, you know she is.


Yes, she's so self absorbed that she is pushing everyone else away. Crying tears of self-pity when she is the one who has instigated this whole thing and she is putting everyone else through hell in order to get the "freedom" that she wants. 




Dollystanford said:


> This will come back and bite her on the ass, I hope the OM is worth it (he won't be)


Well, a quick romance that crashes and burns may just be enough to bring her back to her senses. Or perhaps not. Perhaps it will just be another thing that is everyone else's fault but hers (and of course especially mine for ruining it somehow). Anyway, I'm getting to the point now where even if she said to me "I've been a real idiot and this has all been a terrible mistake - can we try again, please?" I'm not sure that I would want her back.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

Yes I got to that point really quickly. Actually a lot more quickly than he expected I think. But we all react differently and no-one knows the actual workings of a relationship except the two people in it

Something to bear in mind when seeking advice (marvellous though it generally is)


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Dollystanford said:


> Yes I got to that point really quickly. Actually a lot more quickly than he expected I think.


Well I really don't know what's happening with her/them - all I have to go on is the text bombing (at one point between texts I saw her carefully (lovingly?) looking back at the texts that they had just exchanged whilst awaiting his reply. Also, she was out all last Saturday (noon till 10pm) and has announced her intention to be out all this Sunday. 

Looks like a budding romance that is moving swiftly ahead, but what do I know. Let's hope it goes from initial excitement to "I'm not sure we're right for each other" heartbreak very quickly.

On a brighter note, just had lunch with an old mate and told him everything. He is possibly the nicest, most open and warm hearted bloke I know - one of those people it is just impossible not to like and not to feel good when he is around. He told me that he only became that way as a result of his divorce from his first wife - before that he was emotionally uptight and very military (he had been in the navy). So there is a lot of home for all of us TAMers!!


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

Ok, but now as the TAM gents will tell you - you need to stop focusing on what she's doing and analysing every nuance of her behaviour and start focusing on yourself

Be cool, be distant, be a robot...however alien that behaviour may seem. Have to protect yourself now


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Dollystanford said:


> Ok, but now as the TAM gents will tell you - you need to stop focusing on what she's doing and analysing every nuance of her behaviour and start focusing on yourself


Very true, and to be honest I am doing that more than my posts on here would indicate. I just find her behaviour unbelievable (in an increasingly detached way) and post about it on here not because I'm fixated on it but because it is so unbelievable. The bottom line is that the worse she behaves the better I feel about myself and the person I am and the easier it is for me to distance myself with fewer regrets. If she were a perfect angel this would be so much harder for me.



Dollystanford said:


> Be cool, be distant, be a robot...however alien that behaviour may seem. Have to protect yourself now


Yup. Project Cheerful started this morning when I wished her a very good morning and expressed the hope that she slept well. I also cheerfully wished her a good day as she set off for work. 

She could only grunt in return. Round 1 to me!!


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> Looks like a budding romance that is moving swiftly ahead, but what do I know. Let's hope it goes from initial excitement to "I'm not sure we're right for each other" heartbreak very quickly.


I think this sort of thing is what Dolly is getting at mate. You read my thread so who am I to talk...  but if you are looking to be moving on, this sort of 'hope' isn't going to help you with that.

So what if it crashes and burns, not your problem, not your business. Having that hope sounds more like hope for R than of moving on yourself?

The less you think of her and what she is or isn't doing the better for your detachment from it.


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## lostLove77 (Jan 25, 2013)

Voltaire said:


> He told me that he only became that way as a result of his divorce from his first wife - before that he was emotionally uptight and very military (he had been in the navy). So there is a lot of home for all of us TAMers!!


This is interesting to read. I feel like i'm almost a completely different individual after she walked out. Almost like a switch. I actually like it in a lot of ways. Much more patient and not as uptight worrying about things that don't matter. I hope it's not a phase but real genuine change.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

How come you get Dolly on your thread? I'm green with envy.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> I think this sort of thing is what Dolly is getting at mate. You read my thread so who am I to talk...  but if you are looking to be moving on, this sort of 'hope' isn't going to help you with that.


I hear you - and you're right. 

But I would say that my "hope" really isn't all that strong (not sitting here dying for that to happen so we have a chance to get back together) and it is probably more to do with me wanting her to see what a complete idiot she has been believing all of her "grass is always greener" fog fantasies than with any hope of getting back with her. If anything I would just like the opportunity to be a bit smug. Not particularly nice or noble of me, but there you have it. 

I don't want the woman she is being at the moment. I would only take her back if the experience really transformed her, and I'm not at all sure that would happen.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

GutPunch said:


> How come you get Dolly on your thread? I'm green with envy.


:iagree:

I totally get that "ha told ya so" feeling.

Only problem with it is any time spent watching her is time not spent watching yourself. Unless she comes crawling back just look inside and change what you want to change. The rest will work itself out I guess. 

At least thats what those wiser than me keep telling me. :smthumbup:


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

GutPunch said:


> How come you get Dolly on your thread? I'm green with envy.


Aaaah, you've got to do the 180 on her! If Dolly knows you'd be green with envy that comes across as all needy and that's unattractive. She has to believe that you're really not all that bothered whether she contributes to your thread or not!


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Where is the money she is spending to buy the kids affection coming from? What about her cell phone.?

I'm getting the image of your wife as a selfish cold callous woman.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> Only problem with it is any time spent watching her is time not spent watching yourself. Unless she comes crawling back just look inside and change what you want to change.


Wise words. Thank you.

The amount of time I spend thinking about what she is up to falls every day and I am expending little if any emotional energy on it now. It's a natural tailing off and I think it is part of the process of the relationship dying and me falling out of love with her. As such, I feel that if I just let it fall off of its own accord the relationship will die a quicker and more peaceful death and I will be more at ease with it than if I tried to force all thoughts of her out of my head. 

My focus really is much more on the kids now, as well as on myself.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Shaggy said:


> Where is the money she is spending to buy the kids affection coming from? What about her cell phone.?


She has a job.



Shaggy said:


> I'm getting the image of your wife as a selfish cold callous woman.


Actually she's more of an emotionally damaged person hitting out at the world, but the net result is the same. But seeing how she is behaving just makes it easier to fall out of love with her.


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> Wondering whether relationship with OM (the one she texted for 2 hours the other night) is more serious than I thought. Daughter went to see her in bed last night. She was texting again and incredibly she didn't even stop to comfort a clearly upset daughter. And when the daughter asked her about the OM it wasn't "oh, he's nothing" or "you're more important than him - he's not anything in my life right now" but rather a "I can't discuss it now".
> 
> Perhaps it really is just a little budding romance and she is deluded enough to think that she has met her soul-mate. Stranger things happen in the WAW fog.
> 
> ...


She also sounds a little narcissistic; it’s about her needs and wants not even her child’s. My counselor is trying to help me understand how abusive it was to live with a narcissist for years. He even told me once that not only did he not have any love for me right than but he had none for our sons either. I made excuses for him and said he was blinded by the A and couldn’t mean it. But I think they actually were true feelings that he was finally voicing.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

My ex told me he didn't need me, and in fact didn't need anyone. Clearly why he moved someone in three months after we split 

ps guys - so many threads, only one Dolly - and I can't deny I have a bit of a London bias


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

doureallycare2 said:


> She also sounds a little narcissistic; it’s about her needs and wants not even her child’s.


Actually I think she is a damaged person who doesn't know how to ask other people to meet her emotional needs (whereas a true narcissist is a master at demanding that other people meet their needs). But the net result is the same - a complete focus on what she needs. 

I have to be honest here and admit my fair share of the blame too. She was distant emotionally but I was too - for much the same reason. The only difference is that I have changed. It just came too late. But it gives me great hope for a new future, whereas I am afraid that she is doomed to repeat the same patterns again.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

No Volt

You are wrong.



> The only difference is that I have changed. It just came too late


It came at the right. Time It has come at the time you needed it most.

You see you and your wife could have turned to each other, said the marriage sucks and lets work to make it better.

Or

You could have agreed the marriage sucks and decided to part ways.

But when infidelity is involved the decision about the relationship has been taken away from you. You were not given a choice or a say with respect to your marriage.

The key is to be like your friend and to walk away from her infidelity as a better man, better father and better communicator.

Your revenge will be a better life going forward.

Your wife might never wake up from her issues.

That is no longer your concern.

She fired you, remember?

Get your focus forward.

And when you take that step hold your kids tight so they know Dad is taking them with him.

HM64


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

happyman64 said:


> No Volt
> 
> But when infidelity is involved the decision about the relationship has been taken away from you. You were not given a choice or a say with respect to your marriage.
> 
> ...




Thank you for saying this to him!! I was just told by someone else in another tread that it takes two to break the marriage and this was the point exactly I was trying to make.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

doureallycare2 said:


> Thank you for saying this to him!! I was just told by someone else in another tread that it takes two to break the marriage and this was the point exactly I was trying to make.


Here is my take.

It takes two to have a marriage.

But it only takes one to destroy a marriage.

It takes two to Reconcile a marriage no matter who is at fault.

But it takes each person to address their own personal issues that are affecting a marriage from being fulfilling.

I hope this makes sense to you.


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

I agree totally..... If you think you hold no fault for things that have occured in your marraige then you have a very bad case of blindites or your holier than thou. That doesnt mean however that you drove the spouce to cheat, take drugs, become a homosexual, a pedifile, a murderer, go to jail, an abuser or any of other number of things that might have led to what they did to cause the break up. Also this goes visa versa if Im the one that made the choice to cheat or what ever. Like you said its about removing the option or choice from the other spouce, they made a decission that they new could effect their marriage and they made it without consent from the other party.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Thanks HM and DURC. Wise words, as ever.

I certainly accept my share of the responsibility - but that's not 100%. And as you rightly say she didn't have to go off and do whatever it is she did (I'm still not entirely clear what that is - but it doesn't matter now).

Onwards and upwards with me and the kids.

She's still full of anger, desperately trying to justify her actions to herself (and of course doing her best to blame it all on me). Her problem.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Of course she is angry. Think of the tug of war going on in her head. Yes she blames you. If she did not she would not be able to live with herself.

Ignore her 💩.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Ok, here's a bit of an update - a hell of a lot has happened since I last posted.

- she has filed the D papers on Friday. We were all set to sit down and agree the wording but she decided to file (with a very hurtful series of statements about all my supposed shortcomings) because my lawyers were 12 minutes late in replying to her lawyers (why does there need to be a deadline anyway if the two sides are genuinely co-operating)? I think that she desperately needs her "victim" story to be the official version and she was scared that we would get to the court steps first (even though we had no such intention). 

- I realise I've been messing up the whole 180 thing. I saw a friend on Thursday night and he told me how angry I seemed. I think that all this time when I have tried to come across as disinterested and moving on with my life I just looked incredibly angry to her and pushed her away. There were a couple of times when I think she made some very small overtures towards reconciliation when I pushed her away, trying to tough out the 180. Did I screw up and miss my chance? I don't know and I'll never know but it's torturing me.

- She, on the other hand, is doing a perfect 180 on me. Moving on with her life. 

- She's not entirely happy though. Kids are gravitating towards me, basically because I am being open and honest with them and treating them like adults and she is just trying to dictate to them how they should think and feel and not opening up to them at all. Daughter (15) already knew all about what's going on but we told the son (13). Very worried about him as he's in complete denial. 

- I have moved out of the marital bedroom and am now sleeping on mattress on son's floor. I originally refused to move out and she slept on mattress on living room floor for a few nights. I know that many here will tell me I made a mistake, but:
1. it's less disruptive for the kids (she was going to switch their rooms over so that she could sleep with daughter in big room)
2. it's one less victim card she can play (hard to feel too sorry for yourself when you have about 1/4 of the entire surface area of the house to yourself between your bedroom and en suite bathroom). It really doesn't matter to me too much where I take a shower
3. it isolates her and brings me closer to the kids.

- she's gone off for the day, as she did for the whole of last Sunday. Half of me thinks its one OM and half of me thinks that it's just a social group that she's joined for activities around the City. Again, I know that many on here will tell me to find out, but 1. I don't really see the point; 2. that seems to be against the 180 principles - it explicitly tells you not to spy; and 3. apart from following her (and leaving kids alone) there is no way to find out - and I would almost certainly be spotted following her. My lawyer tells me that she will have to reveal some details of any new relationship fairly soon anyway. 

So where does that leave us? She is still fully fog bound, possibly seeing someone else. The dream of that freedom and that great love that is going to come into her life post-divorce is alive and kicking. I am hurting more than ever - thought I was getting over her but today it really, really hurts. And the divorce battle looks like it is starting to heat up. She has told the kids she wants them to live with her and only see me every other weekend (so she can go romancing, no doubt). Kids want a 50/50 arrangement. 

So, feeling like an idiot (having messed up 180 and possibly chances for reconciliation) and feeling very low. I do have some very good people supporting me though (including, of course, the TAM crowd! - thanks everyone for your support to date).


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

> So, feeling like an idiot (having messed up 180 and possibly chances for reconciliation) and feeling very low. I do have some very good people supporting me though.


No. If what you told us lately she has not been reaching out to you to Reconcile.

Did she stop texting OM. Or going out with him? Did she declare to you that she would stop?

No. She filed first instead. She sounds so remorseful Volt.

I am pro Reconciliation. I hate divorce.

But t takes two mature, pro active adults with the same goals in mind to reconcile.

And yes you should have moved her out f the bedroom but I get it.

For now focus on you, your kids and your future.

Your wife is in the fog and has been or a while. There 
Is nothing you can do but separate yourself from her infidelity and behavior.

Start planning today. And reassure your kids by being strong and keep telling them the truth.

They will remember that forever.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> No. If what you told us lately she has not been reaching out to you to Reconcile.
> 
> Did she stop texting OM. Or going out with him? Did she declare to you that she would stop?
> 
> ...


Thanks, HM. Wise and inspiring words as ever.

Believe it or not, I was actually very anxious (if not downright afraid) that the good folks on here would scold me for doing the wrong thing. 

Today is a bad day. The worst so far, in fact, which has really taken me by surprise. But we all have bad days. Tomorrow will be better.

Anyway, just dropped a little guilt bomb into her fog-ridden day out (whether that is innocent distraction activities with supportive friends or spending the day in bed with someone - I still have no clue). We need to tell our son's school about what is going on so I just sent her a draft of the email I will send them. She can now spend her afternoon of "freedom" thinking about the effects of her actions and decisions (oh, sorry, forgot it was all my fault in fog-land) on our son. Enjoy!

I'm going to go hang out with my son whilst she is "doing things for herself".


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

There's no 'right' or 'wrong' way to do this - you are the only one that knows your relationship. I understand completely - I let my ex live in my house for a month even though people here would have said 'kick him out'

You have to be the stable one for your kids' sake - be the one they can rely on. She's an adult, there's nothing you can do to make her behave in a certain way.

Dignity, class, or as we might say...stiff upper lip son!


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Dollystanford said:


> Dignity, class, or as we might say...stiff upper lip son!


Kind of lost that today too. Went to church for the first time in a long time today - I am doing the Alpha course (which frankly isn't doing much for me) so I thought I would go along anyway. I asked my daughter if she would like to go and she said yes to my surprise.

Anyway, completely lost it in church. Was sobbing away uncontrollably Don't know why. I don;t think I had any kind of "come to Jesus" moment - don;t feel more spiritual than I did before - but I guess the idea of putting myself in the hands of a higher power who would look after me was quite an emotional one Upset my daughter to see me like that, of course, but I don't actually think that a bit of emotional honesty is a bad thing. Even strong people hurt, and even strong people cry. I think it takes a bigger person to cry in front of others.

My wife, of course, thinks it's weak.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

*Rethink*
I have, of course, seen the progression of my STBXW's behaviour and how she has moved (quite quickly) towards the exit.

There have been a couple of moments that have given me hope when she has temporarily moved back towards me, but the overwhelming momentum is away from me.

Now I have been assuming up until now that all of that is due to me - that I have somehow been driving her away. But that's nonsense, isn't it? I haven't really been pushing her away (despite my anger and a couple of stupid things I have done). If she really wanted to be with me - or if any small part of her wanted to be with me - then any small stupid or angry things that I did wouldn't matter. She has just been moving away under her own steam, getting more and more comfortable with the idea of leaving me and falling more and more in love with her fog-bound notion of "freedom".


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## rsersen (Jan 30, 2013)

Voltaire said:


> *Rethink*
> I have, of course, seen the progression of my STBXW's behaviour and how she has moved (quite quickly) towards the exit.
> 
> There have been a couple of moments that have given me hope when she has temporarily moved back towards me, but the overwhelming momentum is away from me.
> ...


I believe you are absolutely correct. The begging and chasing, or expressions of anger may give our WAW's some added momentum, but it matters little in the grand scheme of things. If I had implemented the 180 from the moment she said she wanted out, I doubt it would have changed anything.

It seems simple to me. Our wives look at us, and even if they have no reason to be angry with us, they still want no part of what we represent. They know how much work it will take to even try to fix things at home, and why would they want any part of that, to return to what they see as a boring and unhappy marriage? Meanwhile they see what's waiting "out there" - if they've been clubbing or involved in a lot of GNOs before leaving, they see how exciting and new the singles scene is. They may have toxic friends reassuring them of this. She'll go have a lot of fun, and she's sure that she'll find Mr. Right out there, somewhere. In the meantime, she'll be free, and she can't wait for that.

Nothing you can say. Just have to let them go find out that the grass is not greener.



Glad you went to church. I went the first weekend after my wife walked out, hadn't been in months. I've never been a spiritual person at all, but it was an amazing experience. The sermon just happened to be about getting through "storms" in our lives, the feeling that everyone (including God) has abandoned us at our lowest, and why that's false. Failed marriages were brought up several times as examples. It was a real "woah" moment - as if someone knew I was coming that day, and knew exactly what I needed to hear.

I wouldn't say it was a "come to Jesus" moment, I'm still on the fence regarding everything. But at the same time, it was a very calming experience, and I can't explain why. I've been meaning to get back ever since. I think my problem is the idea of running into the STBX, or her new boyfriend. But I don't want to find a new church, I really like that one. So once I feel ready to possibly see them in public, I'll start going back.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> Kind of lost that today too. Went to church for the first time in a long time today - I am doing the Alpha course (which frankly isn't doing much for me) so I thought I would go along anyway. I asked my daughter if she would like to go and she said yes to my surprise.
> 
> Anyway, completely lost it in church. Was sobbing away uncontrollably Don't know why. I don;t think I had any kind of "come to Jesus" moment - don;t feel more spiritual than I did before - but I guess the idea of putting myself in the hands of a higher power who would look after me was quite an emotional one Upset my daughter to see me like that, of course, but I don't actually think that a bit of emotional honesty is a bad thing. Even strong people hurt, and even strong people cry. I think it takes a bigger person to cry in front of others.
> 
> My wife, of course, thinks it's weak.


Maybe you were in church and you received the prayer I sent your way! Sorry if I upset you. 

Do me a favor? Your wife is retarded. She thinks crying is weak. She has shown you she has the emotions of a hungry lioness. Stop thinking of what she thinks.

You insult only yourself.

We care about what you think. And we know you are the only rational adult in the house.

I will say it again. Love your kids. They will in return love you.

Continue to Treat them as adults and by your example they will become mature, emotional loving adults themselves.


Live by example. I hope your day was great over there.

Cheers!


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

She thinks it's weak because she's using everything you do at this point to move further away. If you were an affair partner she'd think it was adorable that you were in touch with your emotions enough to cry in front of her, etc. etc. barf


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

HM, thank you,

You are a one man miracle! You always say the right thing.

I have to say that emotionally I wasn't an adult until recently. I was a scared little kid hiding behind a rock and hoping someone would come and find me and love me, That's just what my wife is. But in the past few months I have grown (funnily enough I did most or all of that growing BEFORE the D bomb) and now I can be the rock of the family. I'm proud of myself both for my growth and for being that rock.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Dollystanford said:


> She thinks it's weak because she's using everything you do at this point to move further away. If you were an affair partner she'd think it was adorable that you were in touch with your emotions enough to cry in front of her, etc. etc. barf


Completely true.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

That's the ticket V! Let her complain and persecute until she's blue in the face.

The tables always turn at some point. It'll be advantage V before she knows it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

ReGroup said:


> The tables always turn at some point. It'll be advantage V before she knows it.


You're right, and that's the outcome I have been aiming at all along. But like everyone else on here in my position I just wish I had a timetable. 

The idea of her weeping bitter tears of regret and self-pity and wondering what the hell she has done is good. But it isn't much use if it only happens after she has ripped my kids' worlds apart, broken my heart and forced us to sell our lovely family home and moved us both into cramped 2/3 bedroom apartments in less good areas. All irreversible changes.

Why doesn't someone invent a de-fogging device. They'll make millions.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Had a self-pitying "don't take my kids away from me" talk tonight (that's her speaking, not me BTW).

I started off sympathetic, but apparently it would be quite OK for her to take the kids away from me and only allow me to see them two weekends a month - but not having her kids live with her would just destroy her. 

Apparently because she was their Mom for 15 years that means that she is automatically the only one who can meet their needs for the next few years - even though she has kind of checked out on them over the past 6 months and keeps saying that she has had enough of putting them and me first and needs to "do something for herself". And even though they now have a better relationship with me than with her.

And apparently whilst she was bringing up the kids I wasn't doing anything - so doing 60-80 hour weeks in soul destroying jobs to provide for the family was nothing, huh?


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

Guilt talking. Because she knows that she really shouldn't be talking about 'doing things for herself' while the kids are the age they are. She also knows that it's unfair to dismiss your contribution to the household but she needs to be able to lash out to justify her behaviour

Envy talking. Because she's seen your relationship with them flourish and hers deteriorate and she knows that if she carries on down this road it will only get worse

Fear talking. Because however much she wants whatever this is, she knows she has an awful lot to lose and perhaps even realises that she's ruining a number of other lives here

Nothing they hate more than being seen as the bad guy. But what will everyone SAY?


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Dollystanford said:


> Guilt talking. Because she knows that she really shouldn't be talking about 'doing things for herself' while the kids are the age they are. She also knows that it's unfair to dismiss your contribution to the household but she needs to be able to lash out to justify her behaviour
> 
> Envy talking. Because she's seen your relationship with them flourish and hers deteriorate and she knows that if she carries on down this road it will only get worse
> 
> ...


100% spot on.

I can take all of this on the chin, particularly knowing that it is all the perversions of a diseased mind. 

But how does this play out? Does she break down in bitter tears of regret, recognise that she made a series of very unhealthy choices (yes, dear, choices - nothing was ever forced on you and try to reverse all of this? And if so, does this happen a year post divorce when it is too late?

Or does the pressure increase and increase and the blame shifting get worse and worse until she comes at me with a knife?

As far as being seen as the bad guy, she is of course surrounding herself with sympathetic cheerleaders who will be reinforcing her story (the one she has fed to them) that I am a complete ogre and she is a complete saint to have managed to live with me for so long - but now it's just intolerable and she has no choice but to leave. No choice at all - it's not her decision, you understand, but something that has been entirely forced on her. Victim, victim, victim. 

And she seems to want to spend more time with these people than with her own children ATM.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

*Another rethink - no more mr nice guy*

My wife had a tough upbringing. Her mother is quite a piece of work. She blames her husband and her children for everything that is wrong with her life - if only they hadn't come along/been better then she would have had a glittering career and been recognised as a genius. As well as riding the victim bus at the expense of all those around her, she basically gave up caring for her own children and my wife (the eldest) had to take on parental duties and keep house for her two younger siblings when she was 11. On top of all of this my MIL is an arch blame shifter/manipluator. She can claim that you said white 2 seconds after you said black and convince half the people in the room that she is right. And boy will she try every form of emotional blackmail in the book to try to control all those around her.

I always saw my wife as a victim of all of this - and she is. And I wanted to look after her, protect her, make it all better. Well, Hello Mr Nice Guy. 

What I have realised, though, is that she is (or is becoming) an abuser as well as the abused. She is repeating the family pattern. Like all WAWs she has a great victim script. But hers started with a milder form of her mother's complaint that "my husband and kids are ruining my life" (or as she actually put it "I am fed up with putting you and the kids first - I need to do something for myself").

Then comes the manipulation of the truth (black is beginning to become white in some of the things she said that I said)......the perfect victim script.......and now a certain cold lack of empathy that I have begun to find chilling. She is weeping tears of self-pity over the risk that I might get the kids. Fair enough - it's an upsetting prospect for anyone (although she should have thought of that before dropping the D bomb). BUT...she just seems incapable of understanding that the reverse prospect is just as upsetting for me. It just doesn't seem to compute with her in any way - it just doesn't seem to make any sense to her on any level. And I find that a bit scary. 

The very worst thing i could ever say to her whilst we were married (even in jest) was that she was becoming like her mother. And now I fear that is happening right before my eyes.




This article is a little on the black-and-white-and-no-shades-of-grey side, but it helped: http://www.shrink4men.com/2012/03/0...-why-she-wont-be-different-with-the-next-guy/


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Did I hack into V's account and just write this?

Scary!


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

ReGroup said:


> Did I hack into V's account and just write this?
> 
> Scary!


RG, I'm gonna be just like you and HM64 when I grow up (with Conrad as my favourite uncle and Dolly as my fairy Godmother)!!


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## soca70 (Oct 30, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> 100% spot on.
> 
> I can take all of this on the chin, particularly knowing that it is all the perversions of a diseased mind.
> 
> ...


V - I've read your thread and have had the same "spiel" given to me. I agree with Dolly that the WS has to convince themselves of this in order to justify their own actions especially with children involved. 

I'm dealing with the "being true to myself" fog currently and when I receive the pushback about how "difficult" and "unreasonable" and "angry" I'm being, I reply "This has been your choice."

Stay strong!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

The crusade to "save" another human being is a dysfunction.

It cannot be done.

And, they won't love you for it. You will end up as the stand-in for ALL their pent-up anger.




Voltaire said:


> *Another rethink - no more mr nice guy*
> 
> My wife had a tough upbringing. Her mother is quite a piece of work. She blames her husband and her children for everything that is wrong with her life - if only they hadn't come along/been better then she would have had a glittering career and been recognised as a genius. As well as riding the victim bus at the expense of all those around her, she basically gave up caring for her own children and my wife (the eldest) had to take on parental duties and keep house for her two younger siblings when she was 11. On top of all of this my MIL is an arch blame shifter/manipluator. She can claim that you said white 2 seconds after you said black and convince half the people in the room that she is right. And boy will she try every form of emotional blackmail in the book to try to control all those around her.
> 
> ...


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

soca70 said:


> V - I've read your thread and have had the same "spiel" given to me. I agree with Dolly that the WS has to convince themselves of this in order to justify their own actions especially with children involved.
> 
> I'm dealing with the "being true to myself" fog currently and when I receive the pushback about how "difficult" and "unreasonable" and "angry" I'm being, I reply "This has been your choice."
> 
> Stay strong!


Thanks for the comment and support soca - it's always comforting to know that other people are in similar situations (even though I wouldn't wish it on anyone). 

The most frustrating thing is to be able to see the self-deception so clearly, to want to shake them out of it and not to have any clue about when the fog will lift. Probably far too late, I suspect.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Conrad said:


> The crusade to "save" another human being is a dysfunction.
> 
> It cannot be done.
> 
> And, they won't love you for it. You will end up as the stand-in for ALL their pent-up anger.


Learning this the hard way. But learning it - better late than never.

For a very long time (until very recently in fact) I thought that I was a sub-standard human being and that I had to do something like this to be "worthy" of love. Now I know better and I know that I don't have to do anything special to make myself worthy of love and that my love is a gift that is worth having (whereas before I thought it was worthless - like a bunch of withered flowers).


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Voltaire said:


> Learning this the hard way. But learning it - better late than never.
> 
> For a very long time (until very recently in fact) I thought that I was a sub-standard human being and that I had to do something like this to be "worthy" of love. Now I know better and I know that I don't have to do anything special to make myself worthy of love and that my love is a gift that is worth having (whereas before I thought it was worthless - like a bunch of withered flowers).


That's actually very good insight.

Re-arranging your life and priorities... jumping to fix.

All that stuff you thought was so considerate and loving?

She interpreted as weak.

You didn't value yourself.

So, she took her cue from you.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Conrad said:


> That's actually very good insight.
> 
> Re-arranging your life and priorities... jumping to fix.
> 
> ...


Very true - we teach others how to treat us.

And now that I do value myself and am much more open emotionally my relationship with my kids is flourishing. She sees that and she feels really threatened by it. I told her that even though she doesn't believe it, it is because I have changed. I was sorely tempted to say "and you could have had some of that big heart loving that I am now capable of providing" but stopped myself. She sees it and she either wants a bit of Voltaire-love or she doesn't. Her choice. Out of my control. And I try not to think about or worry about things that are out of my control.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Voltaire said:


> Very true - we teach others how to treat us.
> 
> And now that I do value myself and am much more open emotionally my relationship with my kids is flourishing. She sees that and she feels really threatened by it. I told her that even though she doesn't believe it, it is because I have changed. I was sorely tempted to say "and you could have had some of that big heart loving that I am now capable of providing" but stopped myself. She sees it and she either wants a bit of Voltaire-love or she doesn't. Her choice. Out of my control. And I try not to think about or worry about things that are out of my control.


What behavior indicates she is threatened?


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

I think I know what he means...

I'm going through the same ordeal. Now that I am no longer focused on my marriage and all its problems - my focus has been rediverted to my daughter. Now, we do everything together on weekends: museums, ball games, work shops, mass, family events etc... 

When our separation began, my wife would drop off her our daughter and be about her business - D4 and I would just stay home and do nothing - I am embarrassed to say.

All of this has changed. It's gotten to the point where my daughter doesn't want to go back to her mom's place. I actually have to prep my daughter a day in advance to get her mentally and emotionally prepared to go back. 

All of sudden, guess who wants to keep her daughter this coming weekend - under the guise of: D4 needs to have some off time. I would also like to spend some quality time with her.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

ReGroup said:


> I think I know what he means...
> 
> I'm going through the same ordeal. Now that I am no longer focused on my marriage and all its problems - my focus has been rediverted to my daughter. Now, we do everything together on weekends: museums, ball games, work shops, mass, family events etc...
> 
> ...


This is the strong leadership of which I speak.

Stay the course.

You never know what will happen.

Of course, do not grant her request:

"I'm not ok with that"


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Conrad said:


> What behavior indicates she is threatened?


She is very very worried that I have won the children’s hearts and minds and am busy turning them against her. She is very scared that she will lose custody and will end up alone whilst I get the kids. She has said this a few times to me in the past 24 hours. 

Needless to say I do not see it as a battle and nor am I trying to change the kids’ minds about anything - including her. I’m just loving them, being there for them, building the strongest possible relationship I can with them. She is free to do the same – but she finds it very hard.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Voltaire said:


> She is very very worried that I have won the children’s hearts and minds and am busy turning them against her. She is very scared that she will lose custody and will end up alone whilst I get the kids. She has said this a few times to me in the past 24 hours.
> 
> Needless to say I do not see it as a battle and nor am I trying to change the kids’ minds about anything - including her. I’m just loving them, being there for them, building the strongest possible relationship I can with them. She is free to do the same – but she finds it very hard.


Practice this phrase:

"I'm sorry you feel that way"

and... stay the course.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> She is very very worried that I have won the children’s hearts and minds and am busy turning them against her. She is very scared that she will lose custody and will end up alone whilst I get the kids. She has said this a few times to me in the past 24 hours.
> 
> Needless to say I do not see it as a battle and nor am I trying to change the kids’ minds about anything - including her. I’m just loving them, being there for them, building the strongest possible relationship I can with them. She is free to do the same – but she finds it very hard.


This says everything to me - if you think someone has 'won the kids' hearts and minds' you should take action and make sure you're not the one missing out. And also be pleased they have two parents that love them....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Dollystanford said:


> This says everything to me - if you think someone has 'won the kids' hearts and minds' you should take action and make sure you're not the one missing out. And also be pleased they have two parents that love them....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Quite.

And the idea that the kids are a prize to be won rather than people to be loved smacks of a manipulative personality. It's really about her rather than about the kids as far as she is concerned.....and they can tell that.

The more I look at her the more I am seeing her self-obsessed manipulative mother. Maybe I'm being unfair in thinking that, but a clone of her mother is not a woman I want to be married to.


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

Dollystanford said:


> This says everything to me - if you think someone has 'won the kids' hearts and minds' you should take action and make sure you're not the one missing out. And also be pleased they have two parents that love them....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Exactly!


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Hmmmmm...funny conversation this morning. On the face of it a calm, civilised conversation about school stuff, but she kept throwing in sarcastic little barbs (which I completely ignored). She hasn't done that before. I'm being calmer with her, which presumably brings about changes in her behaviour towards me (supporting Michele Weiner-Davis's basic theory that if you change your behaviour you change their behaviour too). Without obsessing about it I'm just wondering whether this is a positive change (being more open in expressing her anger?) or a negative one (becoming more hostile). I'm tempted to say the former but I'm just very wary of seeing what I want to see.


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## catcalls (Oct 31, 2012)

hi v

glad to see that you are progressing well and are more stable. no wonder the kids are gravitating towards you. anyway, your kids are teenagers, i guess manipulating them is a bit difficult.

i think despite all the heartache you seem to be getting stronger and more clear about how to progress. the only pitfall i can foresee is you feeling sorry for your wife when she starts suffering the consequences of her actions.

rightly or wrongly she has held you responsible for her unhappiness. now is the time for her to be an adult and you to let her go and face the consequences of her actions.

why is she not moving out and 'living' her life?


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

catcalls said:


> hi v
> 
> glad to see that you are progressing well and are more stable. no wonder the kids are gravitating towards you. anyway, your kids are teenagers, i guess manipulating them is a bit difficult.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your supportive comments.

She won;t move out because she can't afford it and because lawyers have told her not to.

She is trying to move on with her life, going off and doing all sorts of stuff in secret (another man? distraction activities with supportive friends? I have no idea). 

I pointed out to her yesterday that she was choosing to go out with her friends rather than be with her kids (she has just disappeared the last two Sundays and not come back until the evening). She didn't like it but couldn't say much in response because she knows it's true. What I didn't say was that the kids knew that this was her choice, too. Now she's going from the sublime to the ridiculous by being ultra-clingy with them, which of course puts them off just as much.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I don't envy your situation at all V. No matter what else happens, my kids are blessed with two attentive loving parents that always put them first. Mrs.C does the majority of her socialising online so i have no idea what she gets up to if anything, but it means she is still there for the boys and not disconnecting from them in an effort to be free.

Whatever else she decides to cast off, I believe the boys will always be as much a priority for her as for me. All you can do is be there for them and let her show everyone where her priorities lie. 

I am sorry but you lose the right to "freedom" when you become a parent. Although I get you pointing out to her may have been for the kids sake, she will do what she wants how she wants when she wants unless forced to do otherwise. That's her thing to deal with, you can't make her be a good parent, if she chooses to disengage or fake an interest.. it's on her.

You just need to stay engaged and genuine with them for yourself. Sounds lie she is doing it to "show you" how wrong you are rather than because you were wrong and she actually wants it.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> Thanks for your supportive comments.
> 
> She won;t move out because she can't afford it and because lawyers have told her not to.
> 
> ...


Amazing how smart kids are! And yes she is turning into her Mother. 

Focus on you. Turn the anger, the fear into motivation.

Move forward with her or without her.

Make you and your kids the priority. Make plans. Do things with them to stay busy.

And if she decides not to join you and the kids that is her loss.

Amazing how selfish people can become.......


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> Amazing how smart kids are! And yes she is turning into her Mother.
> 
> Focus on you. Turn the anger, the fear into motivation.
> 
> ...


Thanks, HM64


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

happyman64 said:


> Amazing how selfish people can become.......


How they can become?

More like how they ARE.

As Anthony DeMello puts it. People want to think, "I'm ok, you're ok"

Closer to the truth is that "I'm an ass, you're an ass"


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

V.

You need to internalize the following truth: 

People who act as victims like your wife cannot be placated. Nothing you do, no concession, no kindness, to generosity will be recognized and returned by them. In fact every concession and kindness and generosity you do give them is seen by them as proof that they are truly the victim and you are admitting your guilt.

Victims feel they are 100% morally justified in any action they take. They will bully, they will lie, they will be betray, they will attempt to get pity. They will do anything they have to without guilt because their cause is the morally just one.

You need to recognize this very much at this time. The only response to a victim is to deny them any accommodation or negotiation. You need to hold fast and refuse to feed their self righteous sense of absolute entitlement.

In your wife's case, I recommend you start out asking for full custody and only at the end offer 50-50

I also suggest you really need to find out who she is seeing. They are feeding her a lot of support and feeding her sense of entitlement. Hire a PI if you have too, but find them and do what you can to disrupt it. Not to save your marriage, but to save yourself and your kids. Cut her support and she will be much easier to deal with during the D. Right now she believes she is entirely in control and she expects to get everything.

The teas about loosing the kids are nothing more than her manipulating you to feel guilty and to back down. You feel sorry for her and to give her everything.

This goes back to my original point. You can never satiate a victims desire for getting everything. Each concession only feeds their desire for the next. Each kindness builds their resolve and heightens their demands.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Shaggy said:


> V.
> 
> You need to internalize the following truth:
> 
> ...


Thanks, shaggy. I think that you are pretty much spot on but reflecting on what you said I am asking myself a few questions...

1. She has a support network who naturally buy into her victim story 100% (work colleagues, family, friends, etc.). Does it really matter whether she is seeing someone romantically who is also buying into the victim story? 

In that regard I think that it is actually very telling that she dumped her EA partner when (I am guessing here) it went from lots of sympathy from long distance to a rather more real "I want to be with you". He outlived his usefulness when he actually wanted something from her and wasn't just a cheerleader. I suspect that it is the case with everyone else around her at the moment. I bet her special victim status is giving her a whole lot of attention that she is just lapping up. She may not want to endanger that by being seen to "move on" too quickly or easily or to be in a relationship that should be making her happy (so that people stop sympathising). Never thought of it all that way, so thanks for precipitating that thought in my head.

But if there is another romance, I don't have the money to hire someone to tail her and my instinct is not to bother anyway. At this point she regards us as separated and living under the same roof and feels no need at all to remain faithful. Trying to disrupt any romance she is having will just make me look like a complete a**hole and make her look like more of a victim.

It also goes against the 180, where "don't spy" is one of the rules.

More effective, I think, is pointing out that time and money spent on any romance is time and money that she is not spending on her kids. I am doing that. 

2. She has a job and her own money, so cutting support is not viable. However, money is tight for us and she has started spending quite a lot on herself - again in her own mind this is striking out for "freedom" (no doubt in her victim script I have "controlled" her and stopped her "spending money on the things that she deserves"). I am thinking of asking her to stop spending so much on herself and preserve her money for the family, but I am trying to cool things down and this would be a very provocative step. It may also have legal implications so I need to consult my lawyer before I do anything. 


But more broadly your "do not feed the victim" point is 100% correct.

Any further thoughts you (or anyone else) has on the above?


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## rsersen (Jan 30, 2013)

> It also goes against the 180, where "don't spy" is one of the rules.


I this rule is more about curbing your desire to know what your spouse is doing. Tracking them on Facebook or other social media, accessing email, finding out who they're seeing, who they're talking to, what they're saying about you, etc. It's obviously an unhealthy way to stay "attached" to your spouse, and typically has no benefits other than causing you more pain when you find things you don't want to see/hear/read.

That said, there may be legal reasons here to find out what she's up to. Forget her mindset - if you guys are not legally separated, and have not signed anything stating that you can see other people, then in the eyes of the law she is still married, and any relationships she's having would be considered adultery. That probably won't make a difference when it comes to custody or child support, but could play a role if she wants spousal support or other financial relief. It probably won't even come to a court room - it's just something you can dangle over her head to get her to meet you halfway, unless she wants her dirty laundry aired publicly.

It's up to you if you want to follow that route, and it does cost money, but I wouldn't consider it a violation of the 180.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

rsersen said:


> I this rule is more about curbing your desire to know what your spouse is doing. Tracking them on Facebook or other social media, accessing email, finding out who they're seeing, who they're talking to, what they're saying about you, etc. It's obviously an unhealthy way to stay "attached" to your spouse, and typically has no benefits other than causing you more pain when you find things you don't want to see/hear/read.
> 
> That said, there may be legal reasons here to find out what she's up to. Forget her mindset - if you guys are not legally separated, and have not signed anything stating that you can see other people, then in the eyes of the law she is still married, and any relationships she's having would be considered adultery. That probably won't make a difference when it comes to custody or child support, but could play a role if she wants spousal support or other financial relief. It probably won't even come to a court room - it's just something you can dangle over her head to get her to meet you halfway, unless she wants her dirty laundry aired publicly.
> 
> It's up to you if you want to follow that route, and it does cost money, but I wouldn't consider it a violation of the 180.


I thought it was also against the 180 because it is a form of pursuing her. It clearly indicates that you haven't moved on and will only push her away. That is, of course, if she finds out. But if you act on the information that you find then she will know that you have been checking up on her.

Personally I can cope with the idea of infidelity in theoretical terms but I think that knowing any details would be agony and set back my detachment programme by a long way. 

I'm still not sure whether she has a romance going on or is just spending time with supportive friends....or whether she is just "practice dating" with no intention of getting involved. In some ways a little romance that crashes and burns (not so easy as in her fantasy, he runs away from complications of divorcing woman with baggage, sex with someone new is a bit sordid and embarrassing, etc) might bring her out of the fog a little way. But I'm not counting on it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I think it depends why you are doing it. Of its self torture then duh.. But in this case ot would be infofmation gathering so you know what battle you are fighting.

You wouldnt be chasing her just protecting yourself from her.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> I think it depends why you are doing it. Of its self torture then duh.. But in this case ot would be infofmation gathering so you know what battle you are fighting.
> 
> You wouldnt be chasing her just protecting yourself from her.


Well, if Iam perfectly honest with myself the only reason I would find out is because I was dying to know.

I don't really see how it protects me or the kids to know that when she goes out she is seeing someone romantically (if that is what she is doing) as opposed to seeing friends for innocent activities. Whoever she sees is extremely unlikely to be any kind of threat to the kids - she's a very conservative middle class woman who is practically afraid of anyone with a tattoo so is unlikely to end up with someone who is violent or hooked on drugs or drink. 

I think I just need to walk away and disengage as quickly as possible and obsessing about what she gets up to (and with who) would be a big obstacle to that. So far I have avoided thinking about it too much and I don't want to get hung up on it now. 

I'm just trying to focus on the things I can control and her behaviour certainly isn't one of them.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Voltaire said:


> Whoever she sees is extremely unlikely to be any kind of threat to the kids - she's a very conservative middle class woman who is practically afraid of anyone with a tattoo so is unlikely to end up with someone who is violent or hooked on drugs or drink.


I hear this so many times.

It's so so wrong.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Conrad said:


> I hear this so many times.
> 
> It's so so wrong.


Why? What do you think the risks are, Conrad? Of course there is always a theoretical risk, but she has never been drawn to bad boy types. More to gentle artistic types (casting me as the complete meathead philistine, no doubt)

My view is that whoever she is with now (if she is with someone at all) is just a training exercise. THE GUY will not come along for a while - and it is him I need to watch out for for my kids' sake. 

The thing I do need to watch out for is that he is not emotionally manipulative and that he does actually care about my kids.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

How old is she?


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Conrad said:


> How old is she?


mid 40s -and very much feeling that she is in the "last chance saloon" for her shot at happiness, etc.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Voltaire said:


> mid 40s -and very much feeling that she is in the "last chance saloon" for her shot at happiness, etc.


You've never read anything about "affairing down"?

Look at all the guys here screaming their lungs out about the low prospects for posOM.

Sadly, many times guys who think their wives just "aren't interested in sex" are only half right.

They're not interested in sex with YOU.

Due to conditions known as niceguyitis and doormatitis


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Conrad said:


> You've never read anything about "affairing down"?
> 
> Look at all the guys here screaming their lungs out about the low prospects for posOM.
> 
> ...


I know all of that.

If she is trading down it is likely to be with a struggling artist type who is possibly younger and "more passionate" than me but who has few prospects economically.


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> Well, if Iam perfectly honest with myself the only reason I would find out is because I was dying to know.
> 
> I don't really see how it protects me or the kids to know that when she goes out she is seeing someone romantically (if that is what she is doing) as opposed to seeing friends for innocent activities. Whoever she sees is extremely unlikely to be any kind of threat to the kids - she's a very conservative middle class woman who is practically afraid of anyone with a tattoo so is unlikely to end up with someone who is violent or hooked on drugs or drink.
> 
> ...


Good for you for recognizing your needs in this. The hardest thing with something like "fact finding" is to look at your true motivation. We can justify just about anything but when it comes down to it, yours and your children’s best interest have to be what you act on. For most of us to seek out information is for us to prolong our grieving period; those spells of anger, depression, denial and bargaining. Its hard to get to that final stage of acceptance if you keep trying to find "information". I literally became a stalker on my husband’s last affair... trudging in by boots and black coat through a forest to come up to the OW back widow to prove he was there and not stuck at work in the snow storm that night.. He was there.... well you know what... I knew he was anyways....I got my proof and I still accepted him back later. But I will never forget the years I drove by her house, that walk through the woods and all the times I hurt myself. I was tempted to do a drive by this new ow's house last night because it was a full moon and he’s been hinting he moved out.. and I talked myself out of it.. don’t start now I said, what difference would it make if he’s there or not there...? but what will it do to me that once again here I am doing this to myself.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> I know all of that.
> 
> If she is trading down it is likely to be with a struggling artist type who is possibly younger and "more passionate" than me but who has few prospects economically.


No Volt. You thinking process is faulty.

She has already traded down.

The key is to let her.

Focus on you. Focus on the kids. There is where your future lies.

No more thought on her or the POSOM. Neither of them compare to you or your family.

She can continue down the road she is on. You have no control over her or her actions.

Again, focus on you and your kids. That is all you have control over.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

doureallycare2 said:


> Good for you for recognizing your needs in this. The hardest thing with something like "fact finding" is to look at your true motivation. We can justify just about anything but when it comes down to it, yours and your children’s best interest have to be what you act on. For most of us to seek out information is for us to prolong our grieving period; those spells of anger, depression, denial and bargaining. Its hard to get to that final stage of acceptance if you keep trying to find "information". I literally became a stalker on my husband’s last affair... trudging in by boots and black coat through a forest to come up to the OW back widow to prove he was there and not stuck at work in the snow storm that night.. He was there.... well you know what... I knew he was anyways....I got my proof and I still accepted him back later. But I will never forget the years I drove by her house, that walk through the woods and all the times I hurt myself. I was tempted to do a drive by this new ow's house last night because it was a full moon and he’s been hinting he moved out.. and I talked myself out of it.. don’t start now I said, what difference would it make if he’s there or not there...? but what will it do to me that once again here I am doing this to myself.


Thanks DURC - that's very helpful and that's exactly how I see it. But (unless I misunderstand) others on here would advocate finding the OM (if there is one) and exposing the A right up to the time when the divorce is final. 

But in my situation, when we are effectively separated and leading separate lives (even though living under the same roof) I just feel that interfering in her "separate life" is counterproductive in a number of ways. 
1. I think it will push her away faster than ever - nothing more needy and desperate than stalking your separated spouse.
2. It won't help me get over her, disengage and walk away
3. Whilst Conrad is right in saying that I need to protect my kids, an ex-wife is eventually going to end up with another guy and an ex-husband can't scare the guy off - unless he wants a restraining order and/or a criminal record. What I need to be able to do is to check out any guy who ends up spending time with my kids and getting the courts to step in if he is no good. No-one else is spending any time at all with my kids just yet.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> She has already traded down.


You mean by throwing away our marriage?





happyman64 said:


> No more thought on her or the POSOM. Neither of them compare to you or your family.
> 
> She can continue down the road she is on. You have no control over her or her actions.
> 
> Again, focus on you and your kids. That is all you have control over.


Exactly


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

I had a really good evening this evening.

First of all, as I went out she was clearly dying to know where I was going. I didn't tell her. I enjoyed her being the one who was left wondering. 

Then I went and did something that I have been meaning to do for some time. I volunteered at a homeless shelter. I have never done anything like that before, but it was both humbling and rewarding. Nothing like spending time with people who are worse off than you but who (in most cases) have humanity and dignity to make you feel less sorry for yourself. And also to show you how so many of the things that we take for granted and think of as permanent are as thin as tissue paper.


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> I had a really good evening this evening.
> 
> First of all, as I went out she was clearly dying to know where I was going. I didn't tell her. I enjoyed her being the one who was left wondering.
> 
> Then I went and did something that I have been meaning to do for some time. I volunteered at a homeless shelter. I have never done anything like that before, but it was both humbling and rewarding. Nothing like spending time with people who are worse off than you but who (in most cases) have humanity and dignity to make you feel less sorry for yourself. And also to show you how so many of the things that we take for granted and think of as permanent are as thin as tissue paper.


Awsome, I think lyou maybe farther along in the healing process than you even think.. giving back to others is a huge step...


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

doureallycare2 said:


> Awsome, I think lyou maybe farther along in the healing process than you even think.. giving back to others is a huge step...


Thanks

The really crazy thing about all of this is that I have done so much work on myself and made so much progress in the last 2 years - I overcame depression, rebuild shattered confidence and self-esteem, learned to love and value myself and went from being someone who was (emotionally speaking) a scared kid hiding behind a rock to someone with a big, giving heart. She could have had some of that if she hadn't already decided to kill the marriage some time ago. Her loss. I just hope she see that at some point.

But having been through all of that in the last couple of years I was (I hope) in a good place to heal. Not done healing yet, though.


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> Thanks
> 
> The really crazy thing about all of this is that I have done so much work on myself and made so much progress in the last 2 years - I overcame depression, rebuild shattered confidence and self-esteem, learned to love and value myself and went from being someone who was (emotionally speaking) a scared kid hiding behind a rock to someone with a big, giving heart. She could have had some of that if she hadn't already decided to kill the marriage some time ago. Her loss. I just hope she see that at some point.
> 
> But having been through all of that in the last couple of years I was (I hope) in a good place to heal. Not done healing yet, though.


You know what she will see that, those kind of changes make them self known even if we dont want to "see" them. Im sorry to say it may not be in time to save the marraige but who knows about that. The thing is, you need to see those kind of changes in her too! Its not all about you changing, no matter how much you miss her, dont settle for anything less than the same effort and results. 1. To show that she respects you and values you. 2. To show that she respects and values the marraige!


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

your doing great VOL you really are way better than i did when this happened to me. i know doesnt mean much but im proud of you.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

doureallycare2 said:


> You know what she will see that, those kind of changes make them self known even if we dont want to "see" them. Im sorry to say it may not be in time to save the marraige but who knows about that. The thing is, you need to see those kind of changes in her too! Its not all about you changing, no matter how much you miss her, dont settle for anything less than the same effort and results. 1. To show that she respects you and values you. 2. To show that she respects and values the marraige!


All very true. I don't know what will happen with us (I think the chance of saving things is very slim) but as you say it can only be on the basis that she is willing to change and to work hard at putting things back together. I actually have a pretty clear idea of how a healthy, happy marriage could work in the future - but it would only work if she does her bit.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

terrence4159 said:


> your doing great VOL you really are way better than i did when this happened to me. i know doesnt mean much but im proud of you.


On the contrary - any kind words from anyone who has been in this position are highly valued. Only someone who has been through this can have any understanding at all of the experience.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

On K.C.'s thread I told him that he needed to develop more self-compassion. I thought I should take some of my own medicine and have started re-reading *Self-Compassion by Kirstin Neff* - a very good book on the subject grounded in the academic world rather than in new age spirituality. I recommend it - or one of the other books on the topic (*Paul Gilbert's The Compassionate Mind* has good reviews although I haven't read it).

I think that all of us who are going through pain and suffering and who are beating ourselves up about what we have done wrong and about what we could have done differently could use a healthy dose of self-compassion. 

As crazy as it sounds, I am also trying to look at my STBXW with less anger and bitterness and more compassion. I actually thinks it helps the detachment process - you don't really ever detach from someone when you still feel anger at them. And it helps me to see her "Princess Victim" manipulations for what they are - although damn they are hard to resist when you are so conditioned to be the nice guy!! Still working on that!


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

The way your going about things...the way you handle them...your outlook...I love it. I want more of that in me.  

I haven't volunteered at a shelter in years last time I did that I made a huge pot of chile with all the fixings and corn bread...what a nice thing you did by going.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Stella Moon said:


> The way your going about things...the way you handle them...your outlook...I love it. I want more of that in me.
> 
> I haven't volunteered at a shelter in years last time I did that I made a huge pot of chile with all the fixings and corn bread...what a nice thing you did by going.


Thank you, but in truth I did it more for me than for others - it made me feel good.

And the fact that it took something like this to drag me along to a shelter to help out - whereas you went years ago simply out of the goodness of your heart - says a lot of good things about you!

And I certainly wasn't entrusted with any of the cooking. Just fetching and carrying and serving the guests. Oh, and I got to be the big nasty guy who made sure that the guests only took one piece of fruit each! As I say above it was very humbling and energising. 

I have to say that I did enjoy not telling my STBXW where I was going and have her wonder. But I am saddened and disappointed to know that if I had told her she probably would have sneered. And she is guaranteed to have said that I was doing it just to make out that I was a great guy and paint her in a bad light.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I'll get around to a compassion book at some point,

Still wading through Overcoming Depression by Paul Gilbert. I say wading but it's good and helping. Just a little heavy going. It covers self compassion as well but if I'm still instinctively wanting to bash myself i'll check out a more focussed book.

Look at what you got out of the experience. Ok so it wasn't truly altruistic but very little is in truth. You did it to make yourself feel good but look at how you chose to do that as opposed to the typical materialistic stuff people throw themselves at in the pursuit of happiness. Self compassion would surely say, Pat on the back rather than picking holes in your own motives?


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> Look at what you got out of the experience. Ok so it wasn't truly altruistic but very little is in truth. You did it to make yourself feel good but look at how you chose to do that as opposed to the typical materialistic stuff people throw themselves at in the pursuit of happiness. Self compassion would surely say, Pat on the back rather than picking holes in your own motives?


Oh, I'm not trying to shoot myself down, just to be honest about my motives (and to try to avoid giving the impression that I'm coming on here and claiming to be some great saint-like person because I helped out at a shelter one time). 

But, yeah, it was a good, constructive thing to do and I'm pleased that I did it.....and a little bit proud, too 




K.C. said:


> Still wading through Overcoming Depression by Paul Gilbert


Presumably the same Paul Gilbert who wrote the second book on Self-Compassion that I referenced above. I chose the Neff book because it was shorter and seemed more direct and practical but if you like Gilbert his book is probably better known than Neff's.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

and you should be proud

Funny isn't it, your wife wants to 'do something for herself' and that involves disappearing off on the weekends doing god knows what with who knows what. Whereas you choose to spend that time helping those less fortunate. 

Of course your wife could be helping at a shelter too. I suspect not though


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Dollystanford said:


> and you should be proud
> 
> Funny isn't it, your wife wants to 'do something for herself' and that involves disappearing off on the weekends doing god knows what with who knows what. Whereas you choose to spend that time helping those less fortunate.
> 
> Of course your wife could be helping at a shelter too. I suspect not though


Thanks, Dolly. I hadn't really thought of it in those terms but you are right.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Voltaire,

You are a very nice guy.


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## rsersen (Jan 30, 2013)

Voltaire said:


> Thanks DURC - that's very helpful and that's exactly how I see it. But (unless I misunderstand) others on here would advocate finding the OM (if there is one) and exposing the A right up to the time when the divorce is final.
> 
> But in my situation, when we are effectively separated and leading separate lives (even though living under the same roof) I just feel that interfering in her "separate life" is counterproductive in a number of ways.
> 1. I think it will push her away faster than ever - nothing more needy and desperate than stalking your separated spouse.
> ...


Volt, I just wanna say that your last couple posts about the idea of finding the OM (if one exists), and your true motivations behind it were really good stuff. Eye opening for me. I've been going the PI route to try to protect myself in the event my wife comes after support or any of my other assets....but now I need to reflect and figure out if I'm _really_ doing it for legal protection, or whether it's just about being able to keep tabs and stay attached to her in some way.

A lot to think about. I'm amazed that we both started our threads within a few days of each other, and our stories seem fairly similar....but you're so far ahead of me, and thinking with a much clearer head. It really motivates me to catch up with you and get to that same place. So, thanks. Keep it up.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Shaggy said:


> Voltaire,
> 
> You are a very nice guy.


Thanks. 

Actually I have often been grumpy, difficult and uncommunicative with my wife in the past (not excusing her actions but taking ownership of my half of the blame ball). And I have been a bit of a "Mr Nice Guy" who thought that he had to be nice to everyone in order to deserve their trust, love, attention and affection. And sometimes I have resented that. And I think that sometimes people picked up that I was being kind on the face of it but without a kind heart. 

But I am beginning to find myself and I am finding that I have a genuinely kind heart (at least some of the time - no-one is 100% kind all the time). These days I do catch myself being kind because i want to, whereas in the past Mr Doormat would be kind because I thought that I had to - and I often resented it. And it feels very genuine and very good.

All the D stuff still hurts like hell and this is basically a bit of a diversion away from it, but it is a constructive, healthy diversion.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

rsersen said:


> Volt, I just wanna say that your last couple posts about the idea of finding the OM (if one exists), and your true motivations behind it were really good stuff. Eye opening for me. I've been going the PI route to try to protect myself in the event my wife comes after support or any of my other assets....but now I need to reflect and figure out if I'm _really_ doing it for legal protection, or whether it's just about being able to keep tabs and stay attached to her in some way.
> 
> A lot to think about. I'm amazed that we both started our threads within a few days of each other, and our stories seem fairly similar....but you're so far ahead of me, and thinking with a much clearer head. It really motivates me to catch up with you and get to that same place. So, thanks. Keep it up.


Thanks a lot rsersen.

Don't believe everything you read! There's plenty of negative stuff going on below the surface too, but I have decided to "accentuate the positive" as the song goes - even on here unless I really need to vent. And it's really great to get positive feedback from the people on here, so your comment is particularly appreciated.

Reading your posts I really wouldn't say that I am at all in advance of you. In particular your advice to other people that I have seen has been generous, thoughtful and insightful and I am sure that it has helped them. If you are capable of reflecting that back to others then I am sure that your own self-reflections are further advanced than you think.

Secretly I sometimes feel a bit guilty when people say that I am working through this at pretty quickly. It feels as if I am somehow writing off the marriage as easily as she is, or that it never meant quite enough to me in the first place. None of that is true, I know, but guilt loves to sneak up on you if you give it any excuse!


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## lostLove77 (Jan 25, 2013)

Voltaire said:


> Actually I have often been grumpy, difficult and uncommunicative with my wife in the past (not excusing her actions but taking ownership of my half of the blame ball). And I have been a bit of a "Mr Nice Guy" who thought that he had to be nice to everyone in order to deserve their trust, love, attention and affection.


Wow, i could have written this. In fact it's the one thing my wife mentions over and over about our relationship. She said she just wanted someone to smile at her and listen.... Making big leaps here myself but the damage has been done. Keep on keepin on Vol. Only thing we can do. At least take something positive out of this whole thing.


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## rsersen (Jan 30, 2013)

> Reading your posts I really wouldn't say that I am at all in advance of you. In particular your advice to other people that I have seen has been generous, thoughtful and insightful and I am sure that it has helped them. If you are capable of reflecting that back to others then I am sure that your own self-reflections are further advanced than you think.


Appreciate that, thanks. I hear the term "50,000 feet" on here a lot - when I'm looking at someone else's situation from that elevation, it seems easier to give advice. I think I just have to keep detaching and get to that height in my own situation so I can take the same advice. 

In a way, helping others is helping me, and I think that's probably true for other posters here. I'm really glad this community exists - as slow as my progress seems to be right now, I think I'd be a lot farther behind if I hadn't discovered this place.

Your post about being grumpy/difficult/uncommunicative, while at the same suffering from "Mr. Nice Guy" syndrome sounds just like me as well. I actually picked up "No More Mr. Nice Guy" a few weeks back, but did not get very far into. Think I'll pick that back up this evening.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Ok, a bit of a setback this evening. She has suggested that I take the kids and the dog away for a week or so just after Easter. 

Could all be perfectly innocent, but I feel thrown back into full-on attachment mode as all kinds of thoughts swirl through my head. Does she just want to get us out of the way so she can have a bit of fun? If so, is she planning on using our house, our bed? Or am I just being paranoid? 

Should I try to find out or do I just let it go? Finding out is very tempting, but it's just more attachment when I am trying to walk away. And the thought is going to be eating away at me for the next 4 or 5 weeks. 

I was also going to work on a full-on 180 campaign between now and Easter followed by a nice family Easter weekend to intrigue her with the "new" me. But that strategy doesn't stand a chance if she is planning on a big lovefest with POSOM immediately afterwards. 

Another part of me says that it would actually be good if she has a lovefest with someone and it doesn't live up to the fantasy - as it inevitably won't. Could help to kick off the de-fogging process. But that is also very attached thinking - I should be thinking of walking away and treating any R as nice if it happens but not a need to have in my life. 

They don't make it easy, do they?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Volt,

Nothing stands a chance if posOM is still in the picture.


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

I wouldn’t do anything because she is suggesting it and I also wouldn’t over think it either, that could drive you crazy right there. Think only about the things you know are true. One is you don’t trust her, 2. you love your children and want to spend time with them. if you want to do it at the house for east and plan fun day trips do that if you want to go away for 2 or 3 day do that if you want to go for a whole week do that. Don’t do anything that she suggest just because she suggested it or your trying to make a plan or figure her out...


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Volt,
> 
> Nothing stands a chance if posOM is still in the picture.


You're 100% correct. 

I just don't know if he is there or not - and probably no way of finding out until this happens (or doesn't happen). The suspicious part of me suspects that she wants to cool it with him for a little while to make a show of being with the kids in the next few weeks but then wants a week of unbridled passion with all of us safely out of the way.

The other part of me doesn't quite tell me I'm being ridiculous but says that there might be nothing going on at all. 

But all the time I'm torturing myself and wondering what is going on I am not detaching and moving away. I don't quite know how to process this and deal with it.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

doureallycare2 said:


> I also wouldn’t over think it either, that could drive you crazy right there.


Too late - it already is!!




doureallycare2 said:


> Think only about the things you know are true. One is you don’t trust her, 2. you love your children and want to spend time with them. if you want to do it at the house for east and plan fun day trips do that if you want to go away for 2 or 3 day do that if you want to go for a whole week do that. Don’t do anything that she suggest just because she suggested it or your trying to make a plan or figure her out...


All wise words - but so hard to put into practice!!

Not a nice thought, but if she has suggested that we go away just so she can get us out of the way then the kids will never forgive her. 

Another thought I have had is to give her the wrong return date and come back a couple of days earlier than she is expecting.

I think that I will at very least play it very cool over the next few days about whether I am going to take the kids away or not (say I am still deciding) and see how desperate she seems for me to go away...if she asks about it just a little too much or with a little too much urgency in her voice then my antennae will twitch big time.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

My immediate thought is 'why does she want you out of the house'

My ex told me I should take my daughter on holiday on our own and when I went to meet a friend for lunch in central London that I should stay overnight. Let me tell you right now...getting me out of the house in order to bring someone else into the marital bed? End of story, no reconciliation - no how no way

You keep second guessing yourself - what is your gut telling you? You know this woman, trust your instincts. I ignored mine and I was totally wrong to do so


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Dollystanford said:


> My immediate thought is 'why does she want you out of the house'


Question 1: Does she want us out of the house?
On the face of it it makes a lot of sense for someone to take the kids away for a few days during the Easter holidays (we have a holiday cottage that will have to be sold as part of the D settlement if that goes through)....AND she probably can't get the time off to do it at that particular time...BUT the bit that doesn't add up is that she has been competing to try to spend more time with the kids in the last few days since she did her "poor me, don't take my kids away" thing. So question marks there.

The potential DOUBLE BLUFF is that she may think that the kids and I will get fed up with each other - she may think that a week of looking after them on my own will put me off the idea of taking them on full time (and thus ensure her custody) and that a week of my bad cooking will make them think that they want to live with her. I have had them on my own at the holiday place before and she knows that I found it difficult. 

Or maybe she's just trying to be nice...she has been more conciliatory recently and did offer to let me do a couple of things with the kids that were really hers to do with them. 

So it might be nothing to do with a week long sexfest. Or it might be. Or she might be killing two birds with one stone and trying to put me off full time parenting whilst also satisfying her desires. That really would be having your cake and eating it!!

Hmmmmmm.....need Sherlock Holmes mode (or at very least a good night's sleep and a big piece of paper to work out all the possible strategies). Let me treat this like a puzzle to engage my brain and disengage my emotions. 




Dollystanford said:


> You keep second guessing yourself - what is your gut telling you? You know this woman, trust your instincts. I ignored mine and I was totally wrong to do so


I need to slow down and take a day or two for my gut instinct to kick in. It's being thrown off by all of these crazy thoughts and emotions right now. AS I say above, I really need to observe whether she asks if I am going to take the kids away and how she asks. She is not a good poker player and I know her tells....trying a bit too hard to be casual, being a bit too anxious about it, asking a little too often.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

Your first two paragraphs are exactly what I mean - do you really think she is double bluffing you? I agree you need to slow down - you are completely over thinking at the moment

You have to bear in mind that I'm looking at this from the perspective of someone who's come out the other side. I know how easy it is to tell yourself something that makes an outsider go 'wtf???'. That's why TAM is here


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Voltaire said:


> You're 100% correct.
> 
> I just don't know if he is there or not - and probably no way of finding out until this happens (or doesn't happen). The suspicious part of me suspects that she wants to cool it with him for a little while to make a show of being with the kids in the next few weeks but then wants a week of unbridled passion with all of us safely out of the way.
> 
> ...


Take the trip and put a Voice Activated Recorder under her bed.

You'll get the answer.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Dollystanford said:


> Your first two paragraphs are exactly what I mean - do you really think she is double bluffing you? I agree you need to slow down - you are completely over thinking at the moment


Agree entirely with need to slow down and think through calmly.

She talks to plenty of people and a rather confused double bluff strategy might be one of their ideas. ("You know he'll never cope with them on his own. You've got to show him that. Get him to take them away for a week and then he'll see how hard it is to look after two kids all on his own without you to hold his hand..."). They're trying to defog my single dad with two kids fantasy by introducing me to cold hard reality 





Dollystanford said:


> You have to bear in mind that I'm looking at this from the perspective of someone who's come out the other side. I know how easy it is to tell yourself something that makes an outsider go 'wtf???'. That's why TAM is here


And thank god for TAM and people like you!!

So is your reading of this that it's a slam dunk that she's trying to get us out of the way?

Bear in mind that you are only hearing my version of events, and my version of events is naturally coloured by my suspicion. So it may be that the way I am telling this is making you go wtf. If I had said "she's turned a corner and is being so nice...she has even suggested that I spend more time with the kids" would you still be suspicious?......and she is generally being much more concilliatory (partly because I am being much much calmer around her and partly because she is scared that I am about to take the fight to her on the legal side).


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

Yes I would still be suspicious. But I don't know her - what I'm saying is that you do. Trust your instinct. Don't think about it. What is actually happening here. She's been going on about you taking the kids away from her and now she's suggesting you go away with them. In my view she sees an opportunity and wants to take it


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Dollystanford said:


> Yes I would still be suspicious. But I don't know her - what I'm saying is that you do. Trust your instinct. Don't think about it. What is actually happening here. She's been going on about you taking the kids away from her and now she's suggesting you go away with them. In my view she sees an opportunity and wants to take it


This is why you should plant the VAR.

No more reading the tea leaves.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Dollystanford said:


> Yes I would still be suspicious. But I don't know her - what I'm saying is that you do. Trust your instinct. Don't think about it. What is actually happening here. She's been going on about you taking the kids away from her and now she's suggesting you go away with them. In my view she sees an opportunity and wants to take it


*What my gut instinct told me at 4am....*
Obviously this is a "have your cake and eat it" strategy. Since she was stung by me pointing out how much time she was spending away from the house (and the kids) this allows her to be the attentive mother for the next 4 weeks and then spend a week gorging full-on on whatever guilty pleasures she is indulging in when she disappears off for the day at the weekend. 

But it doesn't really tell me anything more about what those guilty pleasures are. I can come up with all kinds of theories but my gut (and the known facts) don't actually support one over the other. Guess I'll just have to find out as much as I can. The fact that she was perhaps slightly too eager for me to take the dog might just suggest that she is more intent on spending long periods away from home rather than a lot of time at home (but that could just be going out straight from work rather than coming home to feed/walk the dog).

As far as the kids are concerned although she was paranoid at the weekend about me taking them away from her she no longer seems nearly so worried about that in the past 24/48 hrs. Presumably friends/lawyer have told her it isn't going to happen.....but that deep seated fear is still there (and quite rightly so, because deep down she knows that she isn't putting them first as a good mother should) so lets use it.

She's compartmentalising her life....good mother over here and pleasure seeker over there. But it's really hard to do that - it takes enormous emotional energy to keep the two sides apart. SO I want to apply pressure there if I can. 

*Game plan*
I'm still thinking about it, but my thoughts ATM are to go and to have minimal contact with her. Starve her of the kids' attention. Obviously if they want to call then I won't prevent them, but often they are living in the moment and don't think of the daily call back home.

I know from recent experience that when the break-up of the family is hanging over your head every goodbye is that much more poignant and when you miss the little people it is much, much sharper. My D is away with school for a few days and I know how hard it was to say goodbye. Something that would normally have been a very casual "bye - have a good time and see you in a couple of days" with little emotion because a difficult goodbye and a stabbing feeling in the chest.

So let her feel that. Her guilty pleasures might seem a lot less fun when she suddenly realises how much she is missing the kids. And if she is having an A then the pang of missing her kids might completely poison the intoxicating feelings of excitement that comes with a new love. It might turn it completely sour. OTOH, maybe she won't miss them too much, but if she doesn't really miss them then the kids will instinctively know. And if she was just getting us out of the way for her to romance some guy in our house then the kids will never forgive her. And she knows that and it will play on her conscience. 


The other thing that my gut instinct told me at 4am is that the kids really are the main issue for her - more important than her "freedom" or any romance she might be having. So she is willing to put those things on hold for a while for the kids - but not completely give them up (at least not just yet) because she still wants to have her cake and eat it. But at the same time she knows deep down that she is skating on thin ice here and that feeling will eventually gnaw away at her and ruin any pleasure she might be getting from other people/activities. It might take a while though. 

Ultimately the fear of losing her kids is a far greater motivator than anything else - even if that's not so much because of maternal love but because fear is a far greater motivator than greed (and wanting your fantasy freedom/romance is just a form of greed).


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> Thank you, but in truth I did it more for me than for others - it made me feel good.
> 
> And the fact that it took something like this to drag me along to a shelter to help out - whereas you went years ago simply out of the goodness of your heart - says a lot of good things about you!
> 
> ...


Volt
I once did a charity event at a Ronald McDonald House in NY City. 

They support the children and families of children going through cancer treatment.

It was a moving experience. A few weeks later I volunteered to help out there a few times a year.

My wife asked me where I was going once. And my 3 girls were curious too. So I told them to get in the car with me.

All I will say was their eyes were opened. And not one of my girls had a dry eye when we left 3 hours later.

My wife asked why I do it. I told her it reminded me that as bad a I feel about our life, lack of success, not enough money or slow sales in business that other people (children & families) have it a lot worse.

It helped keep my life and the things I consider precious (wife and family) in perspective.

Do not tell your wife where you go.

But if she ever inquires take her with you. Do not tell her where you are going.

It might not change her perspective on you or your marriage but it just might re-adjust her priorities in life.

It did for me....

HM64


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

V,

Don't underestimate the greed aspect in all of this. People who cheat will rationalize anything and everything. Once they cross that line - its all fair game for them. It doesn't matter who gets hurt (including kids) - They won't see it. They'll leave a trail of wreckage behind and won't notice a thing. Its all about them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> But if she ever inquires take her with you. Do not tell her where you are going.


What a wonderful idea. Maybe I'll do that one day. Not yet though.

Maybe if we ever R I'll make it a condition that she helps out. Unfortunately the shelter will have closed for spring/summer by then so she'll have to wait for next year.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

ReGroup said:


> V,
> 
> Don't underestimate the greed aspect in all of this. People who cheat will rationalize anything and everything. Once they cross that line - its all fair game for them. It doesn't matter who gets hurt (including kids) - They won't see it. They'll leave a trail of wreckage behind and won't notice a thing. Its all about them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


RG you're right. She wants to have her cake and eat it. And she isn't thinking of the children and what's best for them, she is thinking of herself and her desire to have them around to stop herself from being lonely.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Voltaire said:


> RG you're right. She wants to have her cake and eat it. And she isn't thinking of the children and what's best for them, she is thinking of herself and her desire to have them around to stop herself from being lonely.


When someone talks themselves into victimhood, all bets are off.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

OK, TAM-ers, help me out with some advice here.

Over the past week or so things have cooled off considerably - largely because I have stopped being Mr Angry. Mea culpa, but as a friend of mine told me yesterday "you can't just bottle up righteous anger".

Anyway, in the past few days she has begun calling me about inconsequential things and also asking me to do little things. Yesterday she called and said that she had just sent me an email with an encrypted file and could I help her open it. She then called back 5 minutes later and said that she had managed it herself. This morning she asked me to zip her dress up. At home she is a bit more communicative about her whereabouts and has tried to start one or two conversations about things like work. I typically respond pleasantly ("That's good" or something similar) but do not engage.

Like a dumb a$$ I have been hoping that these were signs that she was beginning to come back to me and having stupid fantasies about reconciliation. But I think that what these really are is approval/reassurance seeking behaviours. "I know I'm divorcing you and spitting in your face but you do still love me, right?" Of course that makes me her emotional (if not financial and practical) Plan B if I let it. 

So, how do I deal with this stuff? I am happy enough being cordial but not engaging in conversation (and I am going to stop picking up/returning her calls), but what do I do about the little requests? These are the things that have real emotional significance for her, I think. I don't know how to deal with them because they are such small requests. If they were bigger things then I would feel happy saying "Sorry, but that's something that I would do for my wife but you have chosen not to be my wife" (along the lines of Princess Fiona in MMSG). But it's hard to refuse a little request without being rude/churlish - these are small things that I would happily do for a casual acquaintance or a work colleague. I am not a rude or churlish person and I am not going to become like that. If I change myself to fend her off that is every bit as bad as changing myself to seek her approval - I am not being true to myself and she has won because she has got me to change. 

One thought is to wait for the requests to get bigger, as I believe they will, and deal with them differently once they cross the line of being something that I would only be willing to do for my wife. 

But in the meantime, any suggestions as to how to handle this?


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

Not a lot you can do really, not whilst you're living together. That's why it's torture and that's why it has to stop as soon as it possibly can. Because if someone asks you to zip them up it takes a special kind of twat to say 'no sorry but we're separating and I feel it would be too intimate'

Others may think differently but I certainly found it very difficult not to behave like a civilised human being with a man who I'd been with for 13 years. I think it's absolutely right that you should not pick up or return her calls. Be as detached as you can possibly be

Your assessment of her reasoning is spot on I think - she needs to assure herself that you'll still be 'there for her' even when she dumps on you. Which is why you have to do as little for her as possible without feeling like you're being an arsehole. 

How long are you going to be in limbo for though? Have you got a plan as to when you say 'enough is enough'? What's happening with the divorce?


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

:iagree:

Dolly is right Volt.

You can be cordial but you need to detach.

Please remember; she has fired you from the position of "Husband"........


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Dollystanford said:


> Not a lot you can do really, not whilst you're living together. That's why it's torture and that's why it has to stop as soon as it possibly can. Because if someone asks you to zip them up it takes a special kind of twat to say 'no sorry but we're separating and I feel it would be too intimate'


Actually I don't mind doing it because as I say I would do it for anyone. What I don;t want to do is to give her all kinds of validation and reassurance from a simple act of kindness. Perhaps my refrain should just be "I would do it for anyone" from now on.



Dollystanford said:


> Your assessment of her reasoning is spot on I think - she needs to assure herself that you'll still be 'there for her' even when she dumps on you. Which is why you have to do as little for her as possible without feeling like you're being an arsehole.


And as I've said I won't become an arsehole just to spite her because that, in a sense, would be a victory for her (and would just feed the victim troll). 



Dollystanford said:


> How long are you going to be in limbo for though? Have you got a plan as to when you say 'enough is enough'? What's happening with the divorce?


I'll PM you - I don't want to talk about legal stuff openly on here just in case her side should ever see it.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Dolly is right Volt.
> 
> ...


Agreed 100% and I am detaching (to the best of my ability!) 

But my issue is with requests for help that fall below the "husband" threshold. I have no problem saying "that's a request you need to make to your husband - oh, sorry, you don't have one of those" when it genuinely is something big enough or intimate enough that it falls in the "husband only" category. But what do I do about smaller things that don't make it into the "husband only" category? Will you just help me with this minor PC issue? Will you make me a cup of tea if you're making one for yourself? Can you just show me quickly how to do this?

I don;t mind doing these things because I would do them for anyone. What I do mind, however, is her drawing "he still loves me and can be my Plan B" reassurance from it. 

Perhaps it just falls in the bucket of "you can control what you do but you can't control anyone else's reaction". So maybe I just continue being me (i.e. civilised) for the time being and hope that the craving for reassurance will become addictive and will ensure that the requests ratchet up to a point where I can refuse quite easily on "not your husband" grounds. Or perhaps I reciprocate request for request and see what happens.

I just don't know.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

What do YOU see you guys as? Friends? Enemies? Somewhere in between?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> What do YOU see you guys as? Friends? Enemies? Somewhere in between?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Difficult question and in a way (if i could do so without it being nasty or raw) I would be tempted to throw that question back at you because my relationship with my STBXW is as confusing and as ambiguous as yours seems to be. But I won't do that because it wouldn't be nice! But you know what I mean.

ATEOTD I see us as just what we are - a husband and wife who are going through a very difficult time that is quite likely to end in divorce. Certainly not enemies. Co-parents. People who are running a joint household. One time and possible future partners (although in very different relationships in the future to the one in the past).

Let me put it this way. If the Mr Nice Guy stuff actually worked and being gentle, attentive and considerate were actually the way to get her back then I would be doing that big time, even if the chances of actually getting her back are very slim. But we all accept that that route doesn't work, so I'm not doing that. And we all accept that assuming that it's over and rebuilding yourself and creating an independent life is healthy (and coincides with what might actually work) so I am doing that.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I dont mind my questions coming back. 

I can answer the question for my situation. We still do things for each other and right now I see us very much as friends. The tough quedtion for me is how long can I do that wanting what I do. Whats tough for me jsnt what we are but what will we become.

Maybe go with your gut. Do what you are comfortable but watch for what comes back. Ok so you would do things for a friend but how long would you do it for a friend who doesnt do it in return and even pulls away from you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> Maybe go with your gut. Do what you are comfortable but watch for what comes back. Ok so you would do things for a friend but how long would you do it for a friend who doesnt do it in return and even pulls away from you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good point about the friend who doesn't give back.

What's confusing about this is that there are so many levels to it.

On the one hand it's a simple act.

But she is (if I am right) bestowing it with huge emotional significance

And we are both, in a way, gaming each other - i don;t want to give her that reassurance and she also wants to take from me without giving (perhaps). 


Other random thoughts/approaches have been occurring to me.... 

1. I'm a generous guy with a big heart (or at least I would like to think that that is what I am becoming). Why not just "give it away"? If she wants a little bit of Voltaire attention then perhaps she will want more. But what I need to do is not to give it all away for free, to let her know that the first hit is free but after that there is a price (just like a drug pusher!). The fruit has to be forbidden in some way. But if I hold back just a little bit (in a "you've hurt me and now I'm wary of you" way) then is that enough? Poorly expressed, but I hope you know what I mean.

2. You have all heard my side of the story, but I do know that she felt very rejected by me. That doesn't excuse all of her bad behaviour, but that is how she felt/feels. Perhaps these little tests are ways for her to try to begin to trust me again. They might also have a dual purpose, operating on a separate level as a more cynical form of reassurance seeking/Plan B maintenance as described above. 

But I guess that is almost the definition of Plan B - the next best thing but something you would be prepared to accept if Plan A fails. So you might invest a little bit of emotion in setting up and maintaining your Plan B but it is never going to be your preferred option. 

3. She has also been offering some kindness too, which I am always careful to acknowledge on each occasion. I have a been very wary of these gestures up until now, taking them as signs of a guilty conscience, trying to see herself as a "nice" person despite all she has done, or just flat out painting herself as a victim again because she has felt "forced" to do something for me. Some of them are simply things that we sort of have to do when we are running a household together - helping here and there, etc. I certainly haven't dared to attach any more significance to these and to build my hopes. But perhaps at very least I should be observing these more carefully. 

4. And what does she want from me? Does she just want to be "friends" so that she can feel better about what she has done to me? 



And having written all of that, I sound like the least detached person on the planet!!!


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> But perhaps at very least I should be observing these more carefully.
> 
> !


I don’t think you need to observe more carefully, it sounds like you watch everything...... and as Dolly has said before over thinking everything. You seem to still be stuck in that desperate mode that the 180 should help take you out of. I have a very good friend co-worker who is un-happy in her marriage, she has been telling me this for a year, her husband and her now have separate bedrooms she is 35 years old very pretty and all the guys here at work have the hot’s for her yet she doesn’t even look at any of them so I have totally believed her that its just been a lack of love and passion for her husband. We went out for drinks a couple weekends ago for my b-day and she shared that she has been having conversations with her x boyfriend from years ago the father of her oldest son and they have talked about their regrets in breaking up..... ah ha.. an EA..... she doesn’t see as one won’t admit as one but has no love anymore for her H. Her H can do no right in her eyes.. if he calls her at work just to tell her he loves her he is being clinging and annoying.. Why? Because it makes her feel guilty.. I am the closet on she talks to and I can tell you she doesn’t see it.. She won’t admit it not even to herself.. She said she won’t go back to her x that’s not the problem. The problem is her H.. I say funny you didn’t have this problem until you and your x started seeing each other and having these talks.. She said she did but just didn’t talk about them.. I say nope.... you told me everything for the last 7 years.... you would have told me.. My point is.. It is what it is... your w. is not emotionally connected to you any more you can either leave and accept it or you can stay and accept it. But the more you put hope in gestures or comments the more you search for a deep meaning is more pain you inflict on yourself.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> 4. And what does she want from me? Does she just want to be "friends" so that she can feel better about what she has done to me?


Very likely. If you remain friendly then what she did isn't that bad.

Friends are honest, respectful and considerate. When they are not - they own up to what they have done and work to set it right for the sake of the friendship. 

Does she fit that description?

If not, you are being used.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

doureallycare2 said:


> My point is.. It is what it is... your w. is not emotionally connected to you any more you can either leave and accept it or you can stay and accept it. But the more you put hope in gestures or comments the more you search for a deep meaning is more pain you inflict on yourself.


Ok I'll admit to doing a certain amount of that but that's not the real issue. The real issue is that my STBXW seems to be drawing a lot of comfort from any small acts I may do - comfort that is just sustaining her fog, my Plan B status and her illusion that what she did wasn't really that bad. 

The question is how I can stop that happening without being a complete a$$hole.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Love crumbs. 

Fvck you! Do it yourself = complete a$$hole.

"I'm not ok with that" does not.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

zillard said:


> Love crumbs.
> 
> Fvck you! Do it yourself = complete a$$hole.
> 
> "I'm not ok with that" does not.


I hear you......but I'm still not clear how that would apply to such small things as helping with an IT issue for 2 minutes or making a cup of tea if you are making one for yourself. It's incredibly small stuff she seems to be drawing comfort from - at least ATM
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HappyKaty (Nov 20, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> I'm a generous guy with a big heart (or at least I would like to think that that is what I am becoming). Why not just "give it away"?


This is the reason...



Voltaire said:


> If she wants a little bit of Voltaire attention then perhaps she will want more.


You don't give with expectations. That is the cardinal rule.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

HappyKaty said:


> You don't give with expectations. That is the cardinal rule.


Funnily enough I have been reading "No more Mr Nice Guy" and recognising that that was exactly what I have done in the past. We both did.

In this case, though, it wouldn't be giving in order to get...it would be giving/sharing with the possibility that the person you share with might want you to share a little bit more - and that perhaps they might want to share a bit with you rather than just taking. 

But it's almost certainly a stupid thought anyway as it flies in the face of the 180. Far too much like chasing.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Voltaire said:


> Funnily enough I have been reading "No more Mr Nice Guy" and recognising that that was exactly what I have done in the past. We both did.
> 
> In this case, though, it wouldn't be giving in order to get...it would be giving/sharing with the possibility that the person you share with might want you to share a little bit more - and that perhaps they might want to share a bit with you rather than just taking.
> 
> But it's almost certainly a stupid thought anyway as it flies in the face of the 180. Far too much like chasing.


Subconsciously, think of it this way.

She wants nothing to do with you or your affection.

You offer to treat her lovingly anyway.

That is actually positive reinforcement of her disrespect.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> I hear you......but I'm still not clear how that would apply to such small things as helping with an IT issue for 2 minutes or making a cup of tea if you are making one for yourself. It's incredibly small stuff she seems to be drawing comfort from - at least ATM


Do them only if YOU want to. Not for her. For you.

During inhouse separation my X put up a stink about laundry (was the only chore she did at that point). So I started doing laundry for myself and D7. I separated out X's clothes and left them in the hamper. 

Since I was doing laundry it would've been very easy to do hers with it. No trouble at all. But it was not my job anymore. I approached household chores, etc as if she were simply a roommate - and one that wasn't very nice. 

If I was making coffee and she asked nicely for a cup, sure I'd pour an extra. Would I do it without her asking? No.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Subconsciously, think of it this way.
> 
> She wants nothing to do with you or your affection.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Conrad. A useful way to think of it. Perhaps my philosophy should be that I give respect when I get it (but without being an a$$ about it). I have actually tried to positively reinforce her good behaviour in the past week when she has done things that I like. 

Maybe I should just start thinking that if she is approval/reassurance seeking then that puts me in the driving seat.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

zillard said:


> Do them only if YOU want to. Not for her. For you.
> 
> During inhouse separation my X put up a stink about laundry (was the only chore she did at that point). So I started doing laundry for myself and D7. I separated out X's clothes and left them in the hamper.
> 
> ...


Thanks, zillard - some useful practical advice about how to approach the situation which is exactly what I was looking for. 

It's not my job to provide her with anything (although it is my job to co-provide for the children with her). It's certainly not my job to meet her emotional needs, but I guess if she is meeting those needs by asking me to do small things then I can make a choice about whether I meet those needs or not.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Voltaire said:


> Maybe I should just start thinking that if she is approval/reassurance seeking then that puts me in the driving seat.


You don't have to speculate on that.

It's factual.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> Ok I'll admit to doing a certain amount of that but that's not the real issue. The real issue is that my STBXW seems to be drawing a lot of comfort from any small acts I may do - comfort that is just sustaining her fog, my Plan B status and her illusion that what she did wasn't really that bad.
> 
> The question is how I can stop that happening without being a complete a$$hole.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Actually that is easy.

Zip up her dress. No problem.
Make her tea. No problem.
Piss in the bowl, leave the seat down and do not flush. No problem.
Be cordial. No problem.
Leave the divorce papers on the kitchen table to remind her you will not tolerate her new boyfriend or taking off one day at a time. No problem!

And the piece de resistance? This Sunday when she is leaving the home for whom or whatever, stop her. Say sorry but I made plans dear. And leave her right there wondering who you are going out with. Noooooo pppprrrrroooobbbbllllleeeeeemmmmmmm!!!


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

I have been reading "No More Mr Nice Guy" over the past couple of days. I recognise so much of myself in it - but I also recognise that many of the changes that I have instinctively made over the past 6 months or so have addressed many of my "Nice Guy" issues (even though I didn't always realise that this is what I was doing). But I'm shocked that the whole Nice Guy thing runs so deep and infects so many areas of a relationship. Unfortunately the first thing I'm tempted to do is to blame all of our relationship difficulties on myself. But, as others would point out, I'm not the one who decided to walk out.

I've made a couple of decisions.

First, I'm just not going to worry about her emotional state. If she is trying to make herself feel better by drawing on any small acts of kindness that I may show then I am not going to worry about it. Wanting her to feel and show remorse for what she did to me/the kids is both attached behaviour (why should I care what she thinks/feels any more) and it is dangerously close to putting myself in the victim chair. Detach, detach, detach.

Second, as a few people on here have noted I am a very acute observer who notices everything (and then tries to interpret it). I am going to try to (no, make that I am going to) tone this down a bit. I am going to try to tune in more to what I want to do and to act to please myself a bit more. 


On other fronts on the face of it the 180 does seem to be working. She is definitely starting to approach me in small but significant ways, trying to engage me. But I don;t know whether that is just because she just wants to "be friends" so that she can feel better about what she did, whether she is just trying to become a more integral part of the family again (having distanced herself from me and the kids over the past few months) or whether she is actually becoming more interested in me as a man and husband. But I'm not really thinking about it any more. If she wants something then she can come out and say what she wants/needs and ask for it rather than just trying to ingratiate herself. It's no longer my job to try to interpret or meet her needs. 

Clearly feeling more empowered and strong this morning than I have felt over the past few days. Just the rollercoaster. I can handle it. Onwards and upwards.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

You go girlfriend!


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

She wanted to have a bit of a chit chat when I came in this evening (having spent the afternoon with D and then dropped her at a party). I politely said that I had other things to get on with.

After dinner (it's later over here!!) I had a tetchy conversation with her about holiday arrangements over Easter. Won;t bore you all with the details (I write too much anyway!) but I stayed calm and completely in control and she became more and more like a sullen teenager. At the end of the 10-15 minute conversation (as I cleaned up the kitchen) I asked her if she wanted a cup of tea as I was making one. She refused rather gracelessly - and then made herself a cup 5 minutes later as soon as I had left the room. I thanked her for the delicious dinner she had prepared for my son and me. She didn't reply. We both knew that I was behaving like an adult and she was behaving like a child. 

I don't enjoy the fact that she was clearly suffering but I did get enormously energised by staying in control whilst she didn't and not worrying at all about her feelings. Normally, of course, Mr Nice Guy would have pandered to her and smoothed things over. Although it feels a little bit wrong, I really enjoyed not being Mr Nice Guy and following my own agenda.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Sounds like a job well done. Good man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> Sounds like a job well done. Good man.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks.

It just felt liberating and energising. I felt like I was pushing her away completely, but I just didn't care (which again I felt was liberating and energising). 

AS I pondered her overtures of friendship I had wise words from here (from Conrad and HM, I think) ringing in my head - I reserve my friendship for those who respect me, do not betray me and who are open and honest with me. That gave me strength.

And having had the strength once to ignore her feelings and focus on what I want it feels like it will be far far easier the next time. 

I'm curious to know how she will be tomorrow. Curious but not hung up on it as I would have been before. All my instincts say that she will be furious and distant, but the theory behind the 180 says the opposite.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Voltaire said:


> She wanted to have a bit of a chit chat when I came in this evening (having spent the afternoon with D and then dropped her at a party). I politely said that I had other things to get on with.
> 
> After dinner (it's later over here!!) I had a tetchy conversation with her about holiday arrangements over Easter. Won;t bore you all with the details (I write too much anyway!) but I stayed calm and completely in control and she became more and more like a sullen teenager. At the end of the 10-15 minute conversation (as I cleaned up the kitchen) I asked her if she wanted a cup of tea as I was making one. She refused rather gracelessly - and then made herself a cup 5 minutes later as soon as I had left the room. I thanked her for the delicious dinner she had prepared for my son and me. She didn't reply. We both knew that I was behaving like an adult and she was behaving like a child.
> 
> I don't enjoy the fact that she was clearly suffering but I did get enormously energised by staying in control whilst she didn't and not worrying at all about her feelings. Normally, of course, Mr Nice Guy would have pandered to her and smoothed things over. Although it feels a little bit wrong, I really enjoyed not being Mr Nice Guy and following my own agenda.


The first step towards a larger world.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> I reserve my friendship for those who respect me, do not betray me and who are open and honest with me. That gave me strength.


This is important to remember. When my ex was still blabbering on about us being friends I thought to myself 'if our marriage was anything to go by this friendship would be totally one sided. And who in their right mind would put up with THAT'


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Volt

Good job. 

Now stop even thinking about what she might be like tomorrow and focus what you will be like tomorrow.

Strong.
Reserved.
Cordial
And being an awesome Dad.

Nice job with the tea by the way.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

An interesting day so far.

She got up early and went for a little run, declaring that she was going to start running again. I encouraged her, knowing that she does this periodically, goes for 1 or 2 runs and then gives up. I had already told her that I was going for a run this morning, so I went out and ran 12km!

Then late morning she declared that she was going out for the afternoon. Claims that she had told me, which she hadn't. I thought of my friends HM and Conrad and said "sorry, I'm going out this afternoon". Rather than cancelling her engagement (another one of her secret outings) she arranged for a last minute babysitter! Of course our 13 year old son was thrilled at the suggestion that he needed a babysitter!

I was flabbergasted because I thought that she had stopped this sh1t - I thought that she had realised that the kids were upset by her choice to go spend time away from the family and rebuffing their questions about where she was going with "I am an adult and I do not have to justify where I go to anyone". She's just pushing them further and further away.

She's really addicted to whatever it is she's doing, whether it is an OM or it is her fantasy of "freedom" after D. At one point I told her quite pleasantly that I hoped that she had a nice date at which point she was left denying uncomfortably that it was a date. 

The other interesting thing is that she was approval seeking big time with me. In the midst of the spats about who should back down, she kept coming back time and again and insisting (like a teen would to an exasperated parent) that she had told me about her outing. That's guilt talking. She really wants me (make that needs me) to tell her that her disgraceful behaviour is OK. 

Anyway, I went out and spent a few hours wandering around. It was amazing how much time I spent thinking about her possible reactions to our conversations over the next few days (and about the reactions of others to a few challenging conversations I need to have at work). I kept trying to drag my thoughts back to thinking about what I want and was shocked at how much time I spent thinking about things from everyone else's perspective but mine. Mr Nice Guy lightbulb moment.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Clearly the OM demanded a booty call. Maybe his wife went out fir the day ?


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Shaggy said:


> Clearly the OM demanded a booty call. Maybe his wife went out fir the day ?


LOL.

If I had to guess, I think that they go do cultural things together like going to museums, probably in a larger organised group, and then just happen to drift together afterwards and go and enjoy each others company - going shopping, having drinks, etc. I think that that allows them to tell themselves that it's not an EA or a date, they are just fellow members of a cultural group who happen to enjoy each other's company.

That's my guess, but I could be wrong about that in either direction. In one direction, she could just be enjoying her "freedom" to go to these cultural events and then has a good time with a whole group of people (or a few girlfriends) afterwards. In the other direction, it could be a full on PA and she and OM might go to a hotel (or his home, but I doubt it) after the cultural event. 

I could torture myself with this but I'm just not getting hung up on it any more.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

At her age, quite often the estrogen drops, but testosterone remains constant.

That often spells trouble if a couple doesn't have strong physical attraction for each other.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Conrad said:


> At her age, quite often the estrogen drops, but testosterone remains constant.
> 
> That often spells trouble if a couple doesn't have strong physical attraction for each other.


Oh, believe me Conrad, I've had the "ILYANILWY" speech, the "I never loved you, you just ticked enough boxes on my "husband material" list" speech, the "I don't find you attractive and never really did" speech, and the "I want to find someone who will really love me" speech. All of that as well as accusations of not being interested in sex when she spent years avoiding it (not going into too many details here!).


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Voltaire said:


> Oh, believe me Conrad, I've had the "ILYANILWY" speech, the "I never loved you, you just ticked enough boxes on my "husband material" list" speech, the "I don't find you attractive and never really did" speech, and the "I want to find someone who will really love me" speech. All of that as well as accusations of not being interested in sex when she spent years avoiding it (not going into too many details here!).


As hard as this is to hear, all we've determined is that she isn't interested in sex with you.

As I mentioned in ReG's thread, Janie and I would be long done under similar circumstances.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Conrad said:


> As hard as this is to hear, all we've determined is that she isn't interested in sex with you.


100% correct.

Question is whether she ever could be again. Only time, a 180 and No More Mr Nice Guy will tell. If it's in the stars then it will happen. If not, then on to the next relationship.

But if it ever does happen then I have mapped out a very different relationship between us in the future (including a very different sex life). 

The only thing I would say is that I am not entirely sure that she is interested in (no, make that ready for - I am sure she has fantasies but Iam just not sure she is ready to act on them) sex with anyone just at the moment. I may be completely wrong but I think that she is taking a breather, enjoying her freedom and will take it very slowly before getting involved with anyone else. I could be completely wrong and she could be hanging off the chandelier with someone as I type this, but that is my read of the situation.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

That sounds like a plan.

Be the best Voltaire you can be and let the chips fall where they may.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Conrad said:


> That sounds like a plan.
> 
> Be the best Voltaire you can be and let the chips fall where they may.


Thanks


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

And it is good the light bulbs are going off.

Recognize the issue and then fix it...

To make you a better Voltaire!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Big bust up between mother and daughter last night. Daughter just wanted to get answers and express her anger. I don;t know what happened except two things I heard "I am an adult and I am allowed to have a life and I don't have to explain myself to anyone" and "why is it OK for your father to have a life but not me?" 

I can help you with that last one. I go out for a couple of hours and am open and honest about where I go./ I don;t sneak off for an entire day refusing to say what I am up to, leaving everyone feeling marginalised and rejected. 

This morning STBXW managed to lock herself out of her phone - the phone she has been guarding like a hawk for the last 6 months (although less so since she dropped the D-bomb and the EA with the guy overseas crashed and burned). The part of me that over-thinks everything says that it is no co-incidence after the convo with daughter and that it is her subconscious telling her that she should close down her "secret world" (not that I expect that that would bring her back to me). But increasingly I just don't give a damn what she gets up to.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Voltaire -

Just a note to let you know I've been following your thread with interest. A lot of the awful stuff your STBXW has said to you, I've had to endure as well. 

I very much liked your comment about how she could be hanging off a chandelier with someone right now. I in fact have a chandelier story but it was unfortunately alcohol-related and one I'll have to take to the grave. 

Hang tough, V.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Bullwinkle said:


> Voltaire -
> 
> Just a note to let you know I've been following your thread with interest. A lot of the awful stuff your STBXW has said to you, I've had to endure as well.
> 
> ...


Thanks B - all the support and good wishes makes a huge difference.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Volt

Your daughter is at that gee here she is hurt by her mothers cations.

Console your daughter.

Just let. Her know dad is not going to abandon her.

She needs reassurance from you.

Your. Wife is. Lost and. Selfish.

And. The kid. Sees this.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Ok, so BIG update.

Found out that there is OM. And that she's been seeing him on Sundays. So not exactly a big surprise.

Early stage romance, still being coy about using the "L" word. Lots of lovey-dovey sh1t. Talking about the possibility of spending a few days together. 

What to do, what to do. What good does exposure do when you are already well down the track towards divorce? Do I tell daughter? [gut instinct is absolutely no, but there is no-one else to expose to and she has speculated about it to me].

How do ~I disrupt it without being a complete a$$hole. Or do I not bother and wait for it to crash and burn (if it does)?

Of course he is playing the typical "I'm here for you" nice guy bull**** as we go through the D.

Any thoughts, TAM-ers? The one thing I am not going to do is to have a screaming match with her and accuse her of all of this because that will just drive her towards him all the more.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

She is cheating and could have been for how long? She was lying to your face. Sounds like could be start of trickle truth. If it has come from her dont believe you have the whole story.

On that basis why worry about her thinking you are an ass? I cant advise how to go about things but really her thinking you are an ass shouldnt even come into it surely?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> She is cheating and could have been for how long? She was lying to your face. Sounds like could be start of trickle truth. If it has come from her dont believe you have the whole story.
> 
> On that basis why worry about her thinking you are an ass? I cant advise how to go about things but really her thinking you are an ass shouldnt even come into it surely?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What I have does not come from her. She does not know that I know. 

I think the romance has run a completely parallel course with the breakdown of M. Started very slowly last Nov or so when she became distant but really only started blossoming at around the time she dropped the D-bomb. Hardly a surprise.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Voltaire said:


> What I have does not come from her. She does not know that I know.
> 
> I think the romance has run a completely parallel course with the breakdown of M. Started very slowly last Nov or so when she became distant but really only started blossoming at around the time she dropped the D-bomb. Hardly a surprise.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe I'll invite the POSOM over on Sunday evening so that he and their mother can explain why they are ripping the family apart.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

Ding ding ding...and there we have it. I take it you know this guy then? There's nothing you can do if he's in the picture. so what do you want to do now? 

Personally I would sit her down, say you know, say you'll be speaking to your lawyer about the divorce papers and how to change them to list her adultery as the grounds for divorce, then instruct her to inform her children of her choice otherwise you will

At this point who cares about being an arsehole? She's a lying, cheating coward and you don't owe her anything. She's betrayed you and your family - f*ck her and her feelings quite frankly


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Dollystanford said:


> Ding ding ding...and there we have it. I take it you know this guy then? There's nothing you can do if he's in the picture. so what do you want to do now?
> 
> Personally I would sit her down, say you know, say you'll be speaking to your lawyer about the divorce papers and how to change them to list her adultery as the grounds for divorce, then instruct her to inform her children of her choice otherwise you will
> 
> At this point who cares about being an arsehole? She's a lying, cheating coward and you don't owe her anything. She's betrayed you and your family - f*ck her and her feelings quite frankly


Don't know him from Adam. I think they met on twitter. She told me a few sketchy details when they (first?) met in the autumn. It seemed odd at the time. Took her to an exhibition and then for a very posh lunch. Maybe this is his seduction technique and he preys on unhappy, divorced/divorcing women. If so, he may just move on to the next one if my STBXW becomes too much trouble with angry husband and kids hovering in the background. 

I like the "you tell the kids or I will" line. Perhaps I will do that in conjunction with inviting him over. Not going to do anything right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

Met on twitter? oh gawd. 

You're right not to do anything in anger. Sit on it for a little while. He may very well say he'll be there for her but we'll see how he is with that when she becomes 'available' and wants more out of him than he's prepared to give


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Dollystanford said:


> Met on twitter? oh gawd.
> 
> You're right not to do anything in anger. Sit on it for a little while. He may very well say he'll be there for her but we'll see how he is with that when she becomes 'available' and wants more out of him than he's prepared to give


Too late by then. Once we,ve split the money and the household that's it as far as I am concerned. That is my red line. 

Will definitely sit on it for a day or two. But if this guy is a creep who preys on vulnerable women then he will run a mile and be on to the next one at the first sign of trouble. Seems to me that it would be better to set him off and running now if I can. Of course I may be wrong about him, but that's my gut feel.

Also seems to be a guy in his 40s with no kids who lives with his twin (if my investigations are correct). So not a lot of signs of commitment there
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Seem like you want to protect your wife more than yourself.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

staystrong said:


> Seem like you want to protect your wife more than yourself.


I want to protect my kids and as stupid as it sounds I want to expose in a way that gives us max chances of R. Ideal situation would be if other man dumps her at first sign of trouble. 

And I don't want to give her the chance to play the victim.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Voltaire said:


> Ok, so BIG update.
> 
> Found out that there is OM. And that she's been seeing him on Sundays. So not exactly a big surprise.
> 
> ...


How about exposing it to posOM's wife?


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> I want to protect my kids and as stupid as it sounds I want to expose in a way that gives us max chances of R. Ideal situation would be if other man dumps her at first sign of trouble.


So you're still up for reconciliation, even though him dumping her will likely make her angry at you? She's bare face lied to you - this isn't about him...it's about her and your relationship with her


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Voltaire said:


> I want to protect my kids and as stupid as it sounds I want to expose in a way that gives us max chances of R. Ideal situation would be if other man dumps her at first sign of trouble.
> 
> And I don't want to give her the chance to play the victim.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think it's dangerous to lie for her.

Terrible example for the children.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Dollystanford said:


> So you're still up for reconciliation, even though him dumping her will likely make her angry at you? She's bare face lied to you - this isn't about him...it's about her and your relationship with her


Amazingly, yes - might just still be on for R but only on my terms. At very least I want to be in the driving seat. I want to be the one who makes the decisions about what happens to our marriage
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Conrad said:


> How about exposing it to posOM's wife?


Don't think he's married. Looks like a commitment phobe guy in his 40s from what little I know
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Conrad said:


> I think it's dangerous to lie for her.
> 
> Terrible example for the children.


Agreed. Won't lie. May choose the timing of the truth coming out if it suits me
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

staystrong said:


> Seem like you want to protect your wife more than yourself.


A fuller answer than I gave above. My priorities:
1. Protect the children (but not by lying to them)
2. Protect myself emotionally
3. Protect myself financially
4. Not acting crazy, as any temper or badly chosen words thrown out in anger would help her to be the victim and portray me as the unstable dangerous husband. 
5. Possibly seeing if this whole mess can be fixed to my satisfaction and on my terms
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Voltaire said:


> Don't think he's married. Looks like a commitment phobe guy in his 40s from what little I know
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Find out more.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

He lives with his twin brother at 40? That's really weird...there is more to this than meets the eye


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Dollystanford said:


> He lives with his twin brother at 40? That's really weird...there is more to this than meets the eye


I agree. Kinda weird.


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## rsersen (Jan 30, 2013)

Sorry Volt. It's good that you know, but it still sucks to find out. Because as others have said, this pretty much kills any chance of R until he's out of the picture. 

I can understand still wanting R, despite everything she's done to you now...or more importantly, at least having the _option_ to R, to decide what happens. I'm not nearly as interested in R anymore, but I still hope for the chance one day to tell her no, and tell her why she doesn't get another chance. That's probably just childish of me, but I hope for it anyway.

I think you'll find that the 180 will come much more naturally now that you can add "liar, cheater" to the list of wrongs by your wife. Just stay at 50k. There's probably going to be some bouts of rage and anger coming up, let them out, but make sure not to direct them at her (that is, if you're still interested in R - if not, then **** it, let her have it). 

You said before, when the OM was only a possibility, that you weren't interested in snooping to find out more. Has your mind changed on this at all now that you know an OM exists? I mean it sounds like you've already done some digging, but how far are you willing to go? If you can find out if the OM has a wife or girlfriend, would you expose, try to break it up and get her out of the fog? Or are you content to let it play out and let your wife live with her own choices?


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Dollystanford said:


> He lives with his twin brother at 40? That's really weird...there is more to this than meets the eye


Not sure they live together. If I said that then that was just the image in my mind. They work together.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Voltaire said:


> Not sure they live together. If I said that then that was just the image in my mind. They work together.


Find out.

Make it searingly hot for him to continue.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

rsersen said:


> Sorry Volt. It's good that you know, but it still sucks to find out. Because as others have said, this pretty much kills any chance of R until he's out of the picture.


n a weird way it helps to know for certain.  The only thing I don't know is the extent of any sexual activity but that really doesn't matter. 

I can understand still wanting R, despite everything she's done to you now...or more importantly, at least having the _option_ to R, to decide what happens. I'm not nearly as interested in R anymore, but I still hope for the chance one day to tell her no, and tell her why she doesn't get another chance. That's probably just childish of me, but I hope for it anyway.

I think you'll find that the 180 will come much more naturally now that you can add "liar, cheater" to the list of wrongs by your wife. Just stay at 50k. There's probably going to be some bouts of rage and anger coming up, let them out, but make sure not to direct them at her (that is, if you're still interested in R - if not, then **** it, let her have it). 



rsersen said:


> You said before, when the OM was only a possibility, that you weren't interested in snooping to find out more. Has your mind changed on this at all now that you know an OM exists?


No. I've confirmed it, that's enough.


Still thinking about calling him and inviting him to come over to explain to kids what he and their mom have been up to and also to outline what role he sees having in the kids future. Or if he prefers I can just drop by his office over the next few days if I'm in the area. Oh, and can he please confirm the spelling of his name as I might need to put them in a couple of documents.

If he's the sort I think he is, a guy who preys on emotionally vulnerable women but who is a complete commitment-phobe himself (40s, can't see a sign of a wife or kids) then those complications should have him running for the hills.

Any thoughts on that?


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Make it searingly hot for him to continue.


See what I just posted. What do you think of that plan?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

I'm partial to you getting a letter like the following -

The Count of Monte Cristo received this from posOM's attorney. I can imagine you getting something similar - and my smile will be a mile wide:

*************
I got the following letter from the posOM's lawyer after I exposed to his wife, everyone at his office, and the PTA at his daughter's school:

[Names have been omitted to protect my secret identity]

Dear Count of Monte Cristo:

Please allow this letter to inform you of my representation of members of POSOM's family in relation to recent communications from you. As you are aware, you have taken agressive action against POSOM in the following ways:

1. You sent a letter to POSOM's wife with which you included a thumb drive of alleged email correspondence betwen POSOM and your wife.

2. You emailed virtually all of POSOM's co-workers and attached the same alleged email communications; and

3. You emailed the PTA of POSOM's youngest child's elementary school and attached aforementioned emails.

Mr. Count of Monte Cristo, I certainly understand your anger toward POSOM. For that reason, there will be no action taken in response to your violation of several federal and state statutes... Let me assure you that if your intent was to cause POSOM extreme pain emotionally with his family and economically with his career, you have accomplished your mission.


He finishes by saying that if I contacted POSOM or his friends, family and associates then he would be forced to take legal actions against me. However, like he said - I accomplished what I set out to do. That is, expose his lying cheating ass to the world so that they could see him for the scumbag that he really is.

Conrad now:

Voltaire, you are STILL too damned nice. Take this vermin down. Trust me, you'll feel better for doing so.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Conrad said:


> I'm partial to you getting a letter like the following -
> 
> The Count of Monte Cristo received this from posOM's attorney. I can imagine you getting something similar - and my smile will be a mile wide:
> 
> ...


DO IT!:iagree::iagree:


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Voltaire, you are STILL too damned nice. Take this vermin down. Trust me, you'll feel better for doing so.


My lawyer has just cautioned strongly against doing anything at this stage. I need to think about it.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Voltaire said:


> My lawyer has just cautioned strongly against doing anything at this stage. I need to think about it.


Depends on what you're after.

You say you want to give reconciliation a chance.

There's a door you can open in that direction.

Yet, it's your life. As long as you can look yourself in the mirror, no one else can make that call.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Depends on what you're after.
> 
> You say you want to give reconciliation a chance.
> 
> ...


I agree. I like to get wise counsel from different people (including you) but the ultimate call is down to me.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Voltaire said:


> I agree. I like to get wise counsel from different people (including you) but the ultimate call is down to me.


On a personal note, one of the personal hurdles I had to surmount was being annoyed when people refused to listen.

It seems silly in retrospect.

Yet, you see it here all the time. People - literally - angry with someone else who does the opposite of what they advise.

I wish you nothing but the best.

And, I hope you choose the path that gives you peace, rather than regret.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Conrad said:


> On a personal note, one of the personal hurdles I had to surmount was being annoyed when people refused to listen.
> 
> It seems silly in retrospect.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Conrad.

There are so many factors to weigh up - emotional, legal, strategic. I'm going to take some time to think about it


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Voltaire said:


> Thanks, Conrad.
> 
> There are so many factors to weigh up - emotional, legal, strategic. I'm going to take some time to think about it


The question we ask so often - "What do YOU want?" - is actually more complicated than it would appear.

Submit to the truth. Learn to be still. If a good financial settlement is more important than her respecting you, it's fine, as long as you're honest with yourself.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Conrad said:


> The question we ask so often - "What do YOU want?" - is actually more complicated than it would appear.


Yes - very complex, partly because we don't always know what we want and partly because we rarely want one thing and our desires often conflict. 



Conrad said:


> Submit to the truth. Learn to be still. If a good financial settlement is more important than her respecting you, it's fine, as long as you're honest with yourself.


Well, if it is all going to end (which I think is 95% probable, although authors like Michele Weiner-Davis will tell you that no situation is irretrievable) then I hope to get to a point where I just don't care what she thinks. I do, however, care what my kids and the rest of the world thinks, and I want people to know that she decided to go off and have an affair. 

There isn't enough money to go around in this particular divorce and a good financial settlement means security for my kids, particularly if they live with me. So, yes, it is important and is about more than pride and greed. But a good *emotional* settlement is the most important thing - getting out in a good place and with a good relationship with my kids. 

The other thing is straight tactics. I am going to expose the affair, it is just how and when to do it. My lawyer is advocating a very different course of action to just storming in there and saying "I know all about this". I need to listen to her and then to listen to my own mind and heart.


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## rsersen (Jan 30, 2013)

> I want people to know that she decided to go off and have an affair.


Understandable. I exposed to her/our friends, and both of our families. I didn't do it to break the fog, but just to let people know that I was not the bad guy she was painting me to be, and I wanted to kick her ass out of the victim chair.

I got a lot of sympathy, even from her own family and friends - which I didn't expect, but I'll admit it was nice to have, because at the time I was still in a really dark place, and the affirmation was a nice pick me up. Her reaction wasn't angry (although I'm sure she painted me as the devil to anyone that would listen). That said, she still doesn't understand why I did something so "childish", and tells me that it just further cemented her decision not to be with me. Whatever.

She ended up losing a few very close, life long friends over that. I felt guilty about it for a little bit, but it was her choice - she simply cut off anyone who dare tried to tell her that what she was doing was wrong. Just further shielding herself in a bubble of boyfriend, toxic friends, and cheerleaders.

I don't regret doing it at all. I did it because I wanted to, without any regard for her or her feelings on it. And isn't that a key step of detachment?


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

rsersen said:


> I did it because I wanted to, without any regard for her or her feelings on it. And isn't that a key step of detachment?


I think so. 

I really need to work out exactly what it is that I want.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Voltaire said:


> I think so.
> 
> I really need to work out exactly what it is that I want.


This


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Seems like the 'how' of exposure depends what you want from it. And we are straight back that biatch of a question.

One thing i am slowly realising though V, whatever she is worth, you are worth as much if not more.

Don't leave it to her to decide. Try to move on. It sucks and it is hard but do it for yourself. If she comes back in the right way you cross that bridge when and if you come to it. In the meantime, start telling yourself that it won't happen. Not that it is unlikely but what if.. just that it won't.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> Seems like the 'how' of exposure depends what you want from it. And we are straight back that biatch of a question.


Yes indeed. But at least I feel better equipped to answer it with the reading I have been doing.



K.C. said:


> Don't leave it to her to decide.


Well, just giving up on the marriage seems like accepting her decision, which sucks. 

But I think you're right. I think I need to follow your example and walk away.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

You already lost control of that decision. it isn't yours to make. As soon as they walk, it is their choice alone whether to try and come back.

Your choice is whether to wait around for that maybe or to try to move on and and say what will be, will be.

Wish i had advice on the exposure but you have some great people to help in here already. All I can do is holler support from the sideline.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Voltaire said:


> Yes indeed. But at least I feel better equipped to answer it with the reading I have been doing.
> 
> 
> Well, just giving up on the marriage seems like accepting her decision, which sucks.
> ...


Respectfully, you don't actually know that yet.

People in affair fog basically lose their minds.

You have no idea what you're giving up "on" if you allow the affair to continue.

KC's situation is different - no posOM.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

:iagree:

And VOlt I do not call it "walking" away.

I call it separating yourself from her infidelity.



> I need to listen to her and then to listen to my own mind and heart.


And you can listen to your wife all you want. At least you hopefully can start deciphering fact from fiction, truth from her lies.

But no matter what you hear, as long as you keep listening to her, your heart will remain heavy.

No matter what you want you have to get it in your head that you have to "Let Her Go".

You can only control you.

Good Luck Volt. I know how heavy her hurts weigh on your mind.

We all do.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Respectfully, you don't actually know that yet.
> 
> People in affair fog basically lose their minds.
> 
> You have no idea what you're giving up "on" if you allow the affair to continue..


I'm giving up on a possibility.

But then I guess that is the paradox of the 180. Only when you genuinely give up and walk away fully do is there any possibility of other options appearing.

I was well on the track to walking away, but this discovery has knocked me sideways. It may take me a day or two but I will get back on track.

And still wondering what to do about exposure.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> And you can listen to your wife all you want. At least you hopefully can start deciphering fact from fiction, truth from her lies.


Oh, the "her" I was talking about listening to was my lawyer. 





happyman64 said:


> No matter what you want you have to get it in your head that you have to "Let Her Go".


Yes. The head sends signals but the heart is a bit slow receiving them!! 

You can only control you.



happyman64 said:


> Good Luck Volt. I know how heavy her hurts weigh on your mind.
> 
> We all do.


Thanks. Like so many before me I find the support invaluable.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

So she had been trying to get me and the kids out of the house the weekend after Easter so that she could spend some time with POSOM. I may not be able to go now for reasons that even she would accept are beyond my control, so she says quite barefaced to me "Oh, that weekend I might go do something for myself". 

No shame, and thinks I know nothing about posOM. 

She is already alienating her daughter with all her sneaking around. What is D going to think when mom goes away for the weekend and says nothing about where she is going - or worse still lies about it.

Edit: It's really stupid but I think one of the things stopping me from walking away is pure pride. It doesn't feel like walking away with dignity but more like a beaten dog sneaking off to lick its wounds. She rejected me, she is divorcing me and now I feel like the new big dog has taken my female and I have been chased off. I know it's stupid and it's a matter of attitude (I need a new one!) but can't get past that at the moment. I need to feel that I can walk away tall with my head held high. And despite her behaviour I just don't feel that way at the moment. However, realising the problem is half the solution.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

I felt the opposite. The only thing that gave me dignity was to walk away and say 'enough'. I spent a few weeks trying to get him to change his mind and then thought to myself 'have some pride woman, what exactly are you trying to get back here???'

The day I filed was an epiphany for me - I certainly don't think he expected me to turn so quickly but no way was I going to sit and beg like a dog looking for scraps. No way.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Dollystanford said:


> I felt the opposite. The only thing that gave me dignity was to walk away and say 'enough'. I spent a few weeks trying to get him to change his mind and then thought to myself 'have some pride woman, what exactly are you trying to get back here???'


I need to flip into that sort of mindset. I suppose I keep seeing her as the prize, but the more I think about her objectively the more I see the faults, the issues, the bad behaviour, the disgrace of a mother pushing her kids aside to seek her own pleasure. But thinking about anyone else feels wrong still - not that that bothers her apparently. Maybe I've just got a case of one-itis. 

Without wanting to be controversial I also wonder if there is a male/female difference here, with males naturally programmed to fight for their mate, particularly if they have cubs.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

For whatever it's worth, V, I have felt the same way with my WS. 

On the one hand, overwhelmed with hurt and frustration and telling myself, WALK AWAY, WALK AWAY. And on the other, the sense that I am simply rolling over, playing dead, allowing the alpha male to saunter in and cull my female partner from the herd. 

While I believe you are getting great advice from all these esteemed posters, I also very much understand your sense of reluctance at just throwing in the towel. To me, if you have a drop of testosterone in you, your instinct is to fight like hell. 

You're not crazy.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Bullwinkle said:


> For whatever it's worth, V, I have felt the same way with my WS.
> 
> On the one hand, overwhelmed with hurt and frustration and telling myself, WALK AWAY, WALK AWAY. And on the other, the sense that I am simply rolling over, playing dead, allowing the alpha male to saunter in and cull my female partner from the herd.
> 
> ...


Thanks bullwinkle....that pretty much sums it up!!

I think it's even worse because on any fair head-to-head alpha male fight I would stand a good chance of winning. But he is of course attractive because he represents the opposite of me - new, carefree, no kids, no domestic drudgery, etc. Pure fog - and how do you compete against rainbows and unicorns?


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> So she had been trying to get me and the kids out of the house the weekend after Easter so that she could spend some time with POSOM. I may not be able to go now for reasons that even she would accept are beyond my control, so she says quite barefaced to me "Oh, that weekend I might go do something for myself".
> 
> No shame, and thinks I know nothing about posOM.
> 
> ...


Volt this is why BS's expose. Affairs start to die when exposed to daylight. WS's face their horrible decisions when their lies are exposed.

It does not force Reconciliation. It does start to kill the. Illusion however.

If you do expose you have to expose to everyone. 

Your daughter. Your families. The OM's family and if possible coworkers.

That is how you kill an Affair.

And your feelings are normal.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Voltaire said:


> Thanks bullwinkle....that pretty much sums it up!!
> 
> I think it's even worse because on any fair head-to-head alpha male fight I would stand a good chance of winning. But he is of course attractive because he represents the opposite of me - new, carefree, no kids, no domestic drudgery, etc. Pure fog - and how do you compete against rainbows and unicorns?


Sunshine is the best bleach.

Let's find out how much fight is in her "new dog"


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Letting go doesn't make you a quitter V. You arent a mongrel slinking off into a dark alley while the purebred comes in.

It just means you are not a beaten mutt hanging around for crumbs from the master that beat him. You are the purebred walking away and choosing to forge a future of your own making, needing no master or leash.

Meh I suck at animal analogies. Stop waiting for crumbs from the woman you thought she was and instead, walk away from the woman she is showing you she is.

After that what will be, will be. Does she ever come back? Do you ever accept her if she does? Who knows unless it happens, in the meantime, expose and move on as if she is never coming back.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

And the reason I said expose everyone is this:

When you, her husband say to your wife "How could you do this tome me?" she will think to herself, (screw him, he is the reason why i am doing this).

But when your daughter says this "Mother!, How could you do this to me, to Dad to our family??" well your daughter will illicit a whole different set of thoughts in your wifes mind. She will start to think (Why did i do this to my kids?) and (they have not hurt me).

You need to start to make her question why she is lying to you, cheating on you and the family.

You expose to parents so that they can say "We did not raise you this way!". Again this will start to make her think.

Your wife is in the fog.

When you act she will be mad at you. Be ready for that with "I did not make you lie. I did not make you cheat. I do not control you."

Then walk away. Do not engage her. You want her to question herself, her decisions and her poor choices. Not you.

You cannot do that hoping secretly that her Affair will end and she will Reconcile with you.

You will only be kidding yourself and setting up yourself for failure.

You expose to level the battlefield. You cannot fight her illusion or fantasy. That story is all air.


But you can fight reality.

So make it real Volt.

HM64


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> Letting go doesn't make you a quitter V. You arent a mongrel slinking off into a dark alley while the purebred comes in.
> 
> It just means you are not a beaten mutt hanging around for crumbs from the master that beat him. You are the purebred walking away and choosing to forge a future of your own making, needing no master or leash.
> 
> ...


Thanks K.C. It's a mindset change, and I need to start looking at this situation in a different way.... preferably not involving dogs!!


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> And the reason I said expose everyone is this:
> 
> When you, her husband say to your wife "How could you do this tome me?" she will think to herself, (screw him, he is the reason why i am doing this).
> 
> ...


All 100% correct. At the moment she doesn't think that she is doing anything wrong. She thinks that we are leading "separate lives" and so she can do whatever the hell she likes....trampling over the kids with a "I'm an adult and its none of your business" when they ask what she is up to. The fact that this romance is just blossoming now (as she would no doubt point out) rather conveniently ignores the fact that they clearly started getting close back in October/Novermber - and she has known him for a while before that. So the idea was always at the back of her head.



happyman64 said:


> You expose to parents so that they can say "We did not raise you this way!". Again this will start to make her think.


Afraid not. Mother is the worst blameshifter and truth denier I know - wife is beginning to take after her. They will support her fully - and they are overseas, out of the picture. 



happyman64 said:


> Your wife is in the fog.


Completely



happyman64 said:


> When you act she will be mad at you. Be ready for that with "I did not make you lie. I did not make you cheat. I do not control you."


Like that



happyman64 said:


> Then walk away. Do not engage her. You want her to question herself, her decisions and her poor choices. Not you.
> 
> You cannot do that hoping secretly that her Affair will end and she will Reconcile with you.
> 
> ...


Agree with all of that. Change has to come from within her. And if she doesn't change and admit her mistakes I don't want R anyway.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Voltaire said:


> All 100% correct. At the moment she doesn't think that she is doing anything wrong. She thinks that we are leading "separate lives" and so she can do whatever the hell she likes....trampling over the kids with a "I'm an adult and its none of your business" when they ask what she is up to. The fact that this romance is just blossoming now (as she would no doubt point out) rather conveniently ignores the fact that they clearly started getting close back in October/Novermber - and she has known him for a while before that. So the idea was always at the back of her head.
> 
> 
> Afraid not. Mother is the worst blameshifter and truth denier I know - wife is beginning to take after her. They will support her fully - and they are overseas, out of the picture.
> ...


So, expose her sleazy cheating ways to the world.


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

Volt, I think you sound like you’re doing great! Just keep in mind its a process and just keep being strong. I got home last night from a weekend trip away and mstbxh showed up and I found out something interesting. Apparently he thinks I’m seeing someone. I don’t know how he came up with that Idea, I guess my change of hair color, loss of weight, new clothes and attitude add up to to new man. lol.. I didn’t deny it just told him it was none of his business, I don’t ask him about his OW and what I chose to do is none of his and should not cause all these mood swings of his. that’s what he says is happening...I say divorce is happening.. you need to accept and move on as I am. I still think he really thinks he can just have it all.. that I’m going to fold and say sure hone come back home.. I forgive you again.... just get rid of OW.. I’m sure you learned your lesson this time and it won’t happen for the 16th time....


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

doureallycare2 said:


> Volt, I think you sound like you’re doing great!


Thanks. It doesn't feel like it ATM but as you say it is a process and tomorrow I'll be stronger. A low day today (part of the mourning process accepting that its over) but I am now refocusing on what I want rather than on letting her hijack my thoughts. People on here have been a big help. 




doureallycare2 said:


> .I say divorce is happening.. you need to accept and move on as I am. I still think he really thinks he can just have it all.. that I’m going to fold and say sure hone come back home.. I forgive you again....


It saddens me to read that because it is pretty much exactly how STBXW speaks and thinks - this is exactly what I am on the receiving end of and it hurts. I didn't have an affair but she is convinced that I wronged her (by not showing enough love). She thinks she is entirely justified in ditching me and starting new relationships.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

So a very low evening this evening - feeling very upset. But I went to help out at the homeless shelter again. A good thing to do but didn't really make me feel much better.

Got home to find that the STXW has pushed daughter away again. Said her job was too stressful for her to be there for her (funny, seems to find plenty of time and emotional energy for posOM). Also said that she would not be controlled by anyone and so would not account for where she goes and who she meets when she sneaks off. Message of this all - everything is more important than you, dear Daughter. 

Is that really what she is like these days, or is this disgusting selfishness just fog-induced - and if so will she ever snap out of it?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Voltaire said:


> So a very low evening this evening - feeling very upset. But I went to help out at the homeless shelter again. A good thing to do but didn't really make me feel much better.
> 
> Got home to find that the STXW has pushed daughter away again. Said her job was too stressful for her to be there for her (funny, seems to find plenty of time and emotional energy for posOM). Also said that she would not be controlled by anyone and so would not account for where she goes and who she meets when she sneaks off. Message of this all - everything is more important than you, dear Daughter.
> 
> Is that really what she is like these days, or is this disgusting selfishness just fog-induced - and if so will she ever snap out of it?


Expose the affair

She will not function as a considerate human until you hold her to account.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Expose the affair


Oh, I will - but I will do it in my way. 

A trusted friend, who has far more experience of dealing with divorce situations than any of us on here, cautions that if I just accuse both of them then it is likely to drive them together rather than pull them apart. 

Massive public exposure works well when the entire community will look at the APs with disapproval and put moral pressure on them from all sides. That would not be the case here. First of all, I am in a large city so there is no "community", and certainly not one with a uniform view that adulterous affairs are wrong. The view is that relationships are messy and people here just don't get involved in what other people get up to and certainly don't judge. It's very, very different to small town America (with no disrespect intended to small town America - quite the opposite, in fact. I wish I could rely on that moral certainty). 

So the only levers are the people that each AP knows. I don't know much about his situation and have no way to find out without devoting massive resources (which I do not have) to surveillance. And in the case of my STBXW I know that she has a team of cheerleaders who love to see women get divorced (go for freedom, girl!!) who will take exposure as yet more evidence of how unreasonable I am, how right she is to leave me and who will encourage her to continue the A just to spite me. In their view any new relationship is a "breath of fresh air" and has to be better than sticking with your husband. 

Exposure is just a way to force to APs to reflect on their behaviour and to have to face up to difficult truths. In this case, massive public exposure will not do that. It will probably just reinforce their view that they are "star crossed lovers" who were destined to be together in the face of opposition from the likes of me. At least in the short term they will probably just cling much tighter together. 





Conrad said:


> She will not function as a considerate human until you hold her to account.


No-one holds another human being to account (except perhaps in a criminal trial). People hold themselves to account, but they only do that when they can no longer tell themselves the lies that their self-justifications are based on. 

I need to find a way to put so much pressure on her that she can no longer tell herself those lies. I can;t see how to do that yet. This is a woman who, when her own daughter brings up her none-too-subtle sneaking around with OM, blames the daughter and tells her that she (D) is trying to "control" the mother (who "will not be controlled because she is an adult and will do what she wants and doesn't have to explain herself to anyone"). 

If a woman is that deluded and is prepared to do that to her own daughter I just don't know how to cut through the BS and get her to take a long hard look in the mirror. 

I also don;t know whether this is the fog talking or whether this really is the woman that she has become.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

V, forget her for a minute. What would exposure do for you?

I know I don't have experience of adultery but;

Why worry about driving them together if they already are together? She already seems to have that goalk in mind anyway. Fog induced or not.

One thing I have sen said many times is that by not exposing you are in fact a silent conspirator in the affair. You in fact are enabling it and almost condoning it yourself.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> V, forget her for a minute. What would exposure do for you?
> 
> I know I don't have experience of adultery but;
> 
> Why worry about driving them together if they already are together? She already seems to have that goalk in mind anyway. Fog induced or not.


My objectives are simple:

1. to stop the sneaking around which is upsetting my children, particularly my D. It upsets me too. 

2. to give myself as many options as possible. If she defogs fairly soon that gives me more options than if she remains fog-bound. And we all know that defogging is all but impossible with an OM in the background. 





K.C. said:


> One thing I have sen said many times is that by not exposing you are in fact a silent conspirator in the affair. You in fact are enabling it and almost condoning it yourself.


That brings you right back to the question of how best to expose. If you expose in such a way as to drive them together and drive the A forward quicker, then you are enabling it (and possibly condoning it) even more. 

And I haven't said that I won't expose, I have said that I would like to expose in the most constructive way possible that is most likely to defog and to make her take a long hard look at OM (who I am pretty sure is just playing her and has no long term interest in her and certainly not in my children). 



Look, everyone here comes at this from the position that the vast majority of people think that adultery is always wrong (no exceptions), that people who learn of an affair will put moral pressure on APs to stop, that APs will feel shame and embarrassment when a lot of others learn of their A, that APs will realise how much the A could cost them (in terms of damaging/ending other relationships), and that APs will respond rationally to these different forms of pressure by saying to themselves and to each other "you know what - this is wrong, it is damaging to us and to others, we each have a lot to lose and we should end it now". 

That's a big set of assumptions. I can see a lot of them being true in a situation where, for example, Bill has an affair with Cathy from the same company and they both live in the same neighbourhood, know a lot of people in common (people who also know and respect their spouses) and go to the same church. 

But there is no "one size fits all" solution. I look through that list of assumptions and I don't see a single one that I believe is true in my particular circumstances. 

Now I know some other poster are going to say that i am simply inventing excuses to do nothing, but I am not. Full-on, broad exposure is simply a lever to try to get a WS to take a long hard look at what they are doing, who they are hurting, what it is costing them, what unrealistic dreams and expectations they have, etc. I am very sure that that lever would not be effective to achieve that goal in the particular set of circumstances I face. In fact I think it would actually make it less likely that such introspection would take place because the self-justification system would go into overdrive. So I am actively trying to work out what could trigger such introspection. 

All suggestions welcome.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

I understand what you're saying, V. For a while, I resisted all urging to try and get me to expose my WS's affair. My thinking was, this will only serve to drive her further away. My real goal was for her to realize she still loved me and come home of her own volition, not because my D shamed her into it.

But then something changed inside me. It wasn't some well-reasoned strategy, it wasn't some self-help book plan to get self-respect back in 30 days. In my case it was pure anger, my wanting to exact some kind of revenge, make these people hurt like I was hurting. Didn't care if it drove her away. I wanted blood. 

But you know what, it worked. Insofar as the affair appears over. And I'd do it again.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

You say the posOM appears to be a commitment-phobe. If he is, pushing her towards him would make him run much sooner than them being able to keep going as they are?

Definitely listen to more experienced advice but I am not getting why anything less than full exposure would be the best course? I like to think I would fully expose for myself and forget the effect on them. Easy talk I know, but I would hate to be painted as the one to blame with such an obvious contributor right there for all to see.

Maybe people will accept her justifications, nothing you can do about that but you at least make her have to do so.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Bullwinkle said:


> I understand what you're saying, V. For a while, I resisted all urging to try and get me to expose my WS's affair.


But I am not resisting. I just think that full-on shaming public exposure will achieve nothing but momentary satisfaction for me - followed by a very empty feeling as I realise that it had no effect at all. 

I am searching for a more effective strategy. I do not know what that is yet, but I have several options that I am thinking about. 




Bullwinkle said:


> My real goal was for her to realize she still loved me and come home of her own volition, not because my D shamed her into it.


In my case I am not sure that she still loves me or that if the A finished that she would come back to me or that I would want her back. But as I said above I do want more options rather than fewer, and defogging definitely gives you more options/possibilities than having a WS still fog-bound. 



Bullwinkle said:


> In my case it was pure anger, my wanting to exact some kind of revenge, make these people hurt like I was hurting. Didn't care if it drove her away. I wanted blood.


Well in my case there is a whole legal side to it (that i don;t want to discuss on here for obvious reasons). The bottom line is that if I lose my cool or go for revenge, then I lose. Our legal system is one of the most wife-friendly in the developed world and it is more than willing to believe (on little or no evidence other than what the wife says) that the husband is out of control and unreasonable and hammer him for it. 

Besides, acting out of pure anger just isn't me and I would lose self-respect if I did that. I'm not saying that it was wrong of you, but it just isn't the right thing for me to do.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> You say the posOM appears to be a commitment-phobe. If he is, pushing her towards him would make him run much sooner than them being able to keep going as they are?


Not really. At the moment we are living together so he gets to see her without the kids, baggage free. I'm sure he knows that he's got a few months before her baggage begin to impact on their relationship and she starts suggesting that he meets the kids, etc. Exposure isn't going to change that timetable and if I drive them together then he just gets to pack more jollies into that same window of opportunity. 



K.C. said:


> I like to think I would fully expose for myself and forget the effect on them.


Why? That's pure revenge. Revenge is not on my agenda. Revenge is attached behaviour, not detached behaviour. 




K.C. said:


> Easy talk I know, but I would hate to be painted as the one to blame with such an obvious contributor right there for all to see.


And what if all could see that you did something that with hindsight was almost guaranteed to drive them closer together and turn a casual affair into something more serious? 

And let me say *YET AGAIN* that I am *NOT* saying that i will do nothing. I am saying that I am looking at what I believe are more effective alternatives (in my particular situation) to full-on tell everyone exposure.

Sorry, but I'm getting a bit frustrated that everyone keeps ignoring those parts of my posts. 




K.C. said:


> Maybe people will accept her justifications, nothing you can do about that but you at least make her have to do so.


Again, that is putting her at the centre of things. I don't really care what other people think of her. The truth will out eventually anyway and people will form their own opinions over time. I just care about my objectives, given above.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I guess I am maybe not getting what you are aiming for?

Not trying to ignore that side. I will check out just for now, i don't really have any perspective tbh.

Still here wishing you well but i don't feel I have anything of value to add to this particular phase my friend.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> I guess I am maybe not getting what you are aiming for?
> 
> Not trying to ignore that side. I will check out just for now, i don't really have any perspective tbh.
> 
> Still here wishing you well but i don't feel I have anything of value to add to this particular phase my friend.


Thanks. sorry to be a bit grumpy. Not enough sleep and I kind of feel that folks on here just shout "EXPOSE! EXPOSE! EXPOSE!" at you the whole time. As I try to explain, I can see why that works in many situations but having given it a huge amount of consideration (and having been right on the brink of exposing before someone with a hell of a lot of experience of divorces pointed out to me that that might not play out the way I expected it to - the way everyone here expects it to). It is not a "one size fits all" solution and I do not think that it fits my particular situation where broad public exposure is not going to lead to any pressure on the APs. No-one is gong to say "How absolutely terrible. His wife is so nice. I am going to make a point of ignoring him in the supermarket and shunning him at church". That's just not my situation. No-one who knows one AP knows the other and all their friends and family just want their friend/relative to be happy (and remain oblivious to the effects on her children). 

As for my objectives, they are exactly as I state above - to protect the kids from the hurt they are currently feeling when their mother sneaks off and to maximise my options. My options are maximised with her out of the fog.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Voltaire said:


> As for my objectives, they are exactly as I state above - to protect the kids from the hurt they are currently feeling when their mother sneaks off and to maximise my options. My options are maximised with her out of the fog.


Exposure stops the sneaking.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Exposure stops the sneaking.


Only if it ends the affair.

If it accelerates it then there may not be so much sneaking around but a lot more "Mom is off to see her boyfriend now (and choosing to spend time with him and not you". That's not exactly going to make my kids feel better.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Voltaire said:


> Only if it ends the affair.
> 
> If it accelerates it then there may not be so much sneaking around but a lot more "Mom is off to see her boyfriend now (and choosing to spend time with him and not you". That's not exactly going to make my kids feel better.


KC said it best:

_I guess I am maybe not getting what you are aiming for?

Not trying to ignore that side. I will check out just for now, i don't really have any perspective tbh.

Still here wishing you well but i don't feel I have anything of value to add to this particular phase my friend.
_
I'm with him.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

So much for checking out..

You can't control her only yourself. She can choose to lie. You can choose to be honest. Why lie to cover her lies? I have always considered a lie by omission to be just as much a lie as a direct mistruth.

The truth may not make them feel better but maybe at least one of the parents being honest with them would be better than both misleading them?

Then it's back to the mechanics of how high and wide to do it I guess.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> Then it's back to the mechanics of how high and wide to do it I guess.


Exactly. That's the only real question here.

EDIT: And exposure is a means to an end, not something to be done just for the sake of it (unless you are seeking revenge and public humiliation, which I am not). I am just trying to work out what the best way of achieving that end is. In my particular situation I really do not think that full-on public exposure helps me in any way - and it probably hurts me. So I am thinking through the alternatives.

On the lying point, yes I agree that covering up would make me complicit with their lies. But there is the question of how to impart very sensitive information to vulnerable teenagers who will be very upset by it. Part of that is timing and part of that is making absolutely sure that I am not using them for my own ends. So again, i will not say anything until I have a plan and have thought it through.


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## dzd&confused (Nov 27, 2012)

Vol- I thought long and hard about my exposure. I ended up sending 1 email to 1 person. The person I knew she would hate knowing. She was LIVID but in the end, it killed it. She came back, I said no.

Every situation is different. Do what's best for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

dzd&confused said:


> Vol- I thought long and hard about my exposure. I ended up sending 1 email to 1 person. The person I knew she would hate knowing. She was LIVID but in the end, it killed it. She came back, I said no.
> 
> Every situation is different. Do what's best for you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you. This is the sort of far more targeted approach that I am considering - targeted both in terms of the recipients of the information and the way that information is conveyed.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Voltaire,

What you are long for is the perfect exposure.

One that doesn't upset her or make her angry.

One that makes her return to the old faithful her

One that fixes everything instantly with no downside, confrontation, or tears.

...sorry but that does not exist.

This is hard and very unpleasant stuff. 

My advice is to just expose and do it widely. Name the OM clear and plain. 

Now you are afraid it will drive them together? Actually if it does then it will accelerate the end of affair because they'll be getting a dose of the real relationship not the fun dates. Make sure she has the kids half the time she is with him, so he can see what his life with her, with the kids too will be.

Basically in her case you need to drive it hone and he will dump her and run.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Shaggy said:


> Voltaire,
> 
> What you are long for is the perfect exposure.
> 
> ...


That is not what I am looking for at all. I am looking for a means to meet my objectives of stopping my kids being upset by the sneaking around and also possibly giving me more options (via defogging). 

I am also looking for something that makes me look like a reasonable, controlled individual who has the best interests of his children at heart - because any sign of wild, angry, out of control behaviour will cost me (and thus ultimately my kids) big time in court. And mass mailing all friends, trying to publicly humiliate OM, trying to disrupt the relationship of two people who have "just fallen in love" will look like wild, unreasonable, jealous behaviour in the cold light of a courtroom. 

The bottom line is that acting indiscriminately looks like wild, crazy behaviour. Doing something rational, reasonable, moderate and with a clear intention to protect vulnerable parties looks like the actions of someone in control and who cares. 




Shaggy said:


> This is hard and very unpleasant stuff.


It is, which is all the more reason why it should be done via a precision strike to the maximum extent possible rather than by just carelessly lobbing in some grenades and spraying everything that moves with machine gun fire. 



Shaggy said:


> My advice is to just expose and do it widely. Name the OM clear and plain.


Why? Given what I have described of my circumstances, what do you think that exposing to people who really don't want to get involved in other people's business (and certainly don't want to judge), who don't know me or the kids and who know only one of the APs (and only want that party to be happy) will achieve? If anything, it is only going to garner them sympathy: "Hey, I got an email from the husband - sounds a bit unhinged to me, no wonder she left him. Anyway, glad that you've found love at last. you deserve it. I'm sure she's wonderful. When can we meet her?"



Shaggy said:


> Make sure she has the kids half the time she is with him,


I would love to know how you think I can actually do that. I can't impose the kids on her 24/7 (and nor would I want to - I need time with them) and she'll just see him when they are with me. Last time I tried to block her going out by going out myself she just booked a babysitter. The kids are old enough to be left on their own for a while anyway. 



Shaggy said:


> so he can see what his life with her, with the kids too will be.


Oh if he is anything like I imagine, he knows that full well. He knows that that will happen some months down the line when the divorce is finalised - and I imagine that he will be out of there right then. He just wants to have his fun with a vulnerable, easily flattered woman until then.


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

Volt, you know I have been always been saying to use wise judgment and get wise council, I do not think exposure just for the sake of exposure is always the way to go especially if you want reconciliation or if children are involved and I hope that is not what the others are saying. But they do see a patterned here in your post and a pattern in your W's behavior. At this pint what they are telling you is that for your daughters sake you need to hold her behavior up to a bright light that shows her and those she cares about the flaws. It’s painful, but necessary for her to take a good look at what she is doing to her children and to herself, it may be her only hope. You cannot whitewash it for her or for your children. You do not need to shout it from the roof tops to every tom **** and harry. You are a smart guy, I’m sure you can figure out a way to cause the least amount of damage as possible to your daughters while you expose your W's behavior. Even though I did not expose all of my stbxh's affairs and other great moral wrongs to my boys (they did find out about a couple) his family and his work, he was exposed. He was cast out of our church after he was confronted and his temper got the best of him and he punched the pastor, town gossip had a way of getting around and I know many people in our small village know how he has lived his life in the past. For right now: I filed Cruel and inhumane treatment and listed many of the offences. They are now on court record.. He is livid and fighting the charges which will just make the court battle go on longer and possibly get more public.. You only do your family an injustice if you do not put your foot down and expose her behavior in some way.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Punched the pastor? DoYou, we are liking your story more and more. 

Volt, I get it about legal ramifications and how the moment of pleasure at the exposure is fleeting.


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

Bull, I know right.....sounds like a story... I should write my memoir’s someday...At the time it wasn’t funny.. The pastor actually went with me to the OW house to confront them together.. She was the organist (how’s that for a joke- My husband was the youth leader, they used to meet in the church basement and yes she was married and her two sons were friends with my sons and in the youth group).


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

doureallycare2 said:


> I do not think exposure just for the sake of exposure is always the way to go especially if you want reconciliation or if children are involved and I hope that is not what the others are saying.


agreed - unless you just want revenge, which is not on my agenda.



doureallycare2 said:


> But they do see a patterned here in your post and a pattern in your W's behavior. At this pint what they are telling you is that for your daughters sake you need to hold her behavior up to a bright light that shows her and those she cares about the flaws. It’s painful, but necessary for her to take a good look at what she is doing to her children and to herself, it may be her only hope. You cannot whitewash it for her or for your children. You do not need to shout it from the roof tops to every tom **** and harry. You are a smart guy, I’m sure you can figure out a way to cause the least amount of damage as possible to your daughters while you expose your W's behavior.


I agree 100% with all of that - thank you for saying it. I am just trying to work out the best way of doing that. And the infidelity is only one part of the equation - it is also the fact that she is pushing the kids away as she covers up and justifies her activity.



doureallycare2 said:


> He was cast out of our church after he was confronted and his temper got the best of him and he punched the pastor, town gossip had a way of getting around and I know many people in our small village know how he has lived his life in the past.


He lost his reputation through wild and crazy behaviour. This is exactly my point. If you get all wild and crazy whilst exposing (or even just a little bit angry or accusatory) you can think that you are the wronged one showing righteous anger but if things get twisted just a little bit you can end up with everyone pointing at you and saying "look at the crazy, wild unreasonable husband." Things don't always go to plan, particularly when you are exposing to people you don't even know. They are more likely to take their friend's word for what's going on ("the marriage was over and I rescued her from this wild crazy husband - you can see what he's like from that email") than yours.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Voltaire said:


> I agree 100% with all of that - thank you for saying it. I am just trying to work out the best way of doing that. And the infidelity is only one part of the equation - it is also the fact that she is pushing the kids away as she covers up and justifies her activity.


As a friend, this is where you lose me.

From where I sit, exposing her puts a stop to this immediately.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Conrad said:


> From where I sit, exposing her puts a stop to this immediately.


Why?

I can see that in small town America where everybody knows everybody else, life is very ordered, there are plenty of people who know both APs and their spouses then an A is a community matter and the community will take a view and take a stand against an A and against the APs.

Unfortunately I don't live in this world. Imagine how this would go down in Hollywood or NY or somewhere where people move in and out of other people's social circles, no-one is that close and there is no "community" as such and no real community organisations such as the church. In those situations people just don't get involved in other people's lives and don't judge. No-one is going to condemn an AP. No AP is going to get too embarrassed or shamed by exposure - in fact to some men it might even be a badge of honour. And without a church group or a community or a bunch of people in the workplace clearly disapproving of the A, what pressure is there on the APs? None. You can shine all the light you want on the A but no-one is looking. No-one cares and you just begin to look weird and obsessive.

I think that broader exposure works well when there are clear social structures and clear social mores and peopel can't escape from their church/suburb/small town/squash club/shared workplace. But in the more fluid social dynamic of a big city people just say "live and let live. Who am I to condemn" and move on. It may not be great, but that is the reality of the situation.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

So other than the kids who else needs to know? I don't see where you want to target the exposure atm?


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> So other than the kids who else needs to know? I don't see where you want to target the exposure atm?


It may only be at the kids. Still thinking it through. 

IMO exposure should only be done to people who you are 99.9% sure will turn around and put pressure on one or other of the APs and force them to look in a mirror and take a long hard look at their behaviour, what they are risking and who they are hurting. 

In this case, I am not sure that anyone else fits that description.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Voltaire,

I'll be blunt - and it does confuse me.

Exposure makes her own it.

It's stops her pushing the kids away with sneakiness.

Those are your words.


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> agreed - unless you just want revenge, which is not on my agenda.
> 
> 
> 
> He lost his reputation through wild and crazy behavior. This is exactly my point. If you get all wild and crazy whilst exposing (or even just a little bit angry or accusatory) you can think that you are the wronged one showing righteous anger but if things get twisted just a little bit you can end up with everyone pointing at you and saying "look at the crazy, wild unreasonable husband." Things don't always go to plan, particularly when you are exposing to people you don't even know. They are more likely to take their friend's word for what's going on ("the marriage was over and I rescued her from this wild crazy husband - you can see what he's like from that email") than yours.


I’m not quite getting this, for one, yes he lost the respect of our church and some of our close friends and maybe a few in the community but you underestimate a society in which almost everything goes... was there some gossip about an affair, I’m sure... It did not affect his job or stature ion the community, at that point in time he was not working in our town and even moved away for two years to try and get away from this other woman and "get our marriage back on track” when he came back to the community because we never sold our home he ended up with a better job and it seemed that old scandals were put to rest. He is now living w/ the ow and while that may have lost him some respect with co-workers and board members, it hasn’t lost him his ability to do his job and he hasn’t lost his charm...I could damage him... I could take all that away in a blink of an eye.. to what purpose... first of all I need him to be working... secondly he has damaged his reputation in his sons eyes enough.. they do not need to know how bad of a father they have. But a big difference between my H and your w. 36 years of abuse... Do you want to have your daughters be here 30 years from now? Those are all the things you have to weigh.. I believe you have to expose her to some light, but how much? I feel for you....Keep in mind that no matter what you do, you can’t change her, that’s not on your shoulders and total exposure may or may not stop her. But some exposure may get her to take a good look at the damage she has caused and not the "crazy" as you call it..


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

doureallycare2 said:


> Do you want to have your daughters be here 30 years from now? Those are all the things you have to weigh.. I believe you have to expose her to some light, but how much? I feel for you....Keep in mind that no matter what you do, you can’t change her, that’s not on your shoulders and total exposure may or may not stop her. But some exposure may get her to take a good look at the damage she has caused and not the "crazy" as you call it..


Thank you for those thoughts....you are quite right. Some exposure is required, but I am not sure how much and to whom just yet. I will decide and act. A little bit of very well judged exposure is worth a thousand emails to strangers who just won't care.

And apologies if I seemed to be making light of your husband's situation. I just wanted to draw the parallel between his wild and crazy behaviour and the way in which a wronged spouse, acting out of justifiable righteous anger, can easily be portrayed as completely irrational and out of control. Forgive me if I offended by using your very serious situation to make a point.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Did you get actual evidence? I can't remember.

If she cannot deny what she has been up to, it could be as simple as saying we are sitting down together with the kids and you tell them or I will?


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> Did you get actual evidence? I can't remember.
> 
> If she cannot deny what she has been up to, it could be as simple as saying we are sitting down together with the kids and you tell them or I will?


The "how" is one of the things I need to think through, as well as the "who".


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Will she be able to just deny everything then?


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> Will she be able to just deny everything then?


She can try the "just friends" line. To counter that I would have to lay out the guts of an adult relationship to the kids and I would be very reluctant to do so. Needs a lot of thinking about. I would hope that being in a position where she has to admit it or tell bare-faced lies to her own kids would make her tell the truth, but I am not sure.


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## caladan (Nov 2, 2012)

doureallycare2 said:


> secondly he has damaged his reputation in his sons eyes enough.. they do not need to know how bad of a father they have.


And THAT is why I would never expose. I believe children should be raised by two parents. What's the use of having a parent who doesn't get much respect from the kids? 

I see the great ideas that people have here, but I would never reconcile with a cheat, so what's the point? You cheat, we're done. I don't give a damn about exposure.

But that's just me.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Voltaire,
> 
> I'll be blunt - and it does confuse me.
> 
> ...


All true.

The only question is about the scope and the method of exposure.

Why expose to people who won't care when sending indiscriminate emails to strangers risks having you branded as an out of control revenge-seeker? It's just a very poor strategy - all downside and no upside (apart from a fleeting moment of satisfaction).


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

I seem to have turned a corner...but I don't want to count my chickens, etc. in case it is just another up and down on the rollercoaster.

I had to send STBXW an email yesterday on some legal/financial stuff (don't want to go into details here). Anyway, Mr Nice Guy was nervous and even felt a bit guilty when he hit the "send" button.

However when I saw here briefly yesterday evening I felt much, much better - alive, calm, empowered and as if I was suddenly able to focus on what I want rather than on her reaction. I also feel much clearer about her behaviour and about her (no mixed emotions clouding things) and it feels as if I am much much closer to being able to walk away.

I hope it lasts!


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> Thank you for those thoughts....you are quite right. Some exposure is required, but I am not sure how much and to whom just yet. I will decide and act. A little bit of very well judged exposure is worth a thousand emails to strangers who just won't care.
> 
> And apologies if I seemed to be making light of your husband's situation. I just wanted to draw the parallel between his wild and crazy behaviour and the way in which a wronged spouse, acting out of justifiable righteous anger, can easily be portrayed as completely irrational and out of control. Forgive me if I offended by using your very serious situation to make a point.


No problem, I wasnt offended, just a little confused as to the point you were tring to make.


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## Ebb & Flow (Mar 6, 2013)

Hi Voltaire - sorry to hear of your situation. I've spent this morning reading though your thread and, like many here, also feel your pain. 

For what it's worth - I'd like to just share a different perspective (I seem to be in agreement with KC on a lot points). As for me, I'm 3 months in since hearing my STBX wants divorce - 17 years married 20 years together, high school sweethearts. She had 18 month EA and of course is the reason for divorce. We have 2 children (13 and 7 both girls). Exposure and honesty seem to be a major part of what's occupied your time and effort - something which I can relate to completely. 

Our situations are a bit different in that I moved out of 'our' rental (townhouse) the day after Christmas. I had done all I could to save my marriage and needed to get away because I simply did not know how to not fight for her. I embraced the truth that I couldn't change others but that I could change myself - but knew I couldn't if I saw her everyday. In fact, I moved in the direction of no contact. We met 2/1/13 in person to discuss divorce details - she filed and papers I received reflect our agreement precisely. I communicate and coordinate seeing the kids (who ATM are with her full time) with my oldest through her cell phone. I'll be in a place by the end of the month and take them a week at a time 50/50 custody. 

My oldest constantly asks me why this is happening and that she has a right to know why her life is changing and why the family is broken. STBX confessed the choice was hers to end marriage but keeps giving same answer "Sometimes a choices needs to be made, even if it's a hard choice". My oldest asks me "What the he!! does that even mean". I continue to tell her to ask her mother or her counselor. Like you, I absolutely believe they have the right to know the truth - to add the facts to their grieving process and heal from the entire scope of her selfish behavior which led to this end. STBX has told her family (I now have no family within 800 miles other than my children) that she and I agreed it wasn't working and decided to end it. A complete lie and while it gets under my skin - her family knowing the truth does nothing for me.

There's no doubt in my mind that your perspective will change once you're not seeing or interacting with her anymore - that has certainly been the case for me. This allows virtually no exposure to new 'data' to process. Like you, my mind and heart are in a perpetual tug of war - sometimes the rational mind takes appropriate action and other times I must fight to resist the strong urge to take inappropriate action. 

Mentally I fully accept divorce is unavoidable - but emotionally I still prefer a different outcome. (tough to give up a 20 year investment - family and the woman I thought she was). So I look at what I imagine my life will be like in one year - how I will see things then. at that point - who she's with and what's she doing will not be the same concern to me as it unfortunately still is at time today. 

The more I do now to not include her in my thoughts, actions, or decision making - the sooner I can fully let go. As we all know - the ebb and flow of emotions and their intensity is an amazingly challenging way to live life and is such an endurance challenge. For me any interaction with her is like a 'hit' of the most addicting drug to me. Feelings and desires come with that interaction (conscious or subconsciously) and there's a bit of a hang over effect from it too. Where losing her was once my greatest fear - my new greatest fear is not getting past this in full. 

Nothing about this process is quick - nothing is like flipping a switch as you well know. Jeykel/Hyde - easy to see but hard to look at. Old habit die hard - and it's tough to see the real her from the one that's been in our mind's eye for well over a decade. Also, the process is absolutely not linear - meaning today does not have to be better than yesterday nor does tomorrow need to be better that today. There simply are good days and there are bad days. For myself - it's so much easier to string together good days when there is zero interaction with her. 

My recommendation is to let go of the idea of exposing her (except for the kids - I agree they have a right to know). Imagine yourself a year from - will exposing her have any impact to who you are then? Will there truly be any benefit to you in the long run? 

Her choices and actions are absolutely a reflection of her and her character. How you respond to this adversity is absolutely a reflection you brother.

I wish you only the best.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

E&F

Thank you for sharing your story and thank you particularly for your words at the end. It's good to have a different perspective.


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

E&F, 

I can’t remember Volt if it was you or Bull who asked if their stbxw would ever care about all the pain that they inflicted? I replied that I didn’t know but what I could pretty much guarantee is that one day you won’t care what they think or if they care or not. I’m only 5 months in and I can already feel some of what E&F is saying. It’s a process, it takes time, but in the long run the only thing that is going to matter is how you and your children have healed from this awful situation that your spouse has inflicted and how they will use it to grow and handle difficult situations they will face as adults.


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## Ebb & Flow (Mar 6, 2013)

It's amazing how difficult it is to gain an accurate perspective when we're too close to the situation. Time and space allows our rational mind do what is truly best for us.

In the end I absolutely believe we must all do what we feel is right for our given situation. For me - in hindsight I'd have probably played it differently, but I didn't have the perspective then that I do now. BUT I also don't have any regrets or 'what if' moments now because of what I did early. Nothing about this process 'feels' right, but then again nothing about the situation feels right either. What I know for myself is that I'm not nearly the hot mess I was 8 weeks ago.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ebb,

What I've learned to do is to see what's hurting me and put up a boundary that prevents the hurt.

I see Voltaire sick at heart - and hurting - every time his sleazy cheating wife evades her kids to tryst with posOM.

Exposing would be a boundary against that pain.


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## Ebb & Flow (Mar 6, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Ebb,
> 
> Exposing would be a boundary against that pain.


Hi Conrad - wondering how exposure would be a boundary against that pain? I'm thinking no exposure = no pain.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ebb & Flow said:


> Hi Conrad - wondering how exposure would be a boundary against that pain? I'm thinking no exposure = no pain.


It hurts him every time he sees her do it.

Flushing her out of hiding puts a boundary on that behavior.

It's clear to all exactly what's going on.


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## Ebb & Flow (Mar 6, 2013)

In my humble opinion - 'flushing her out' and exposing what she's up to is a wasted effort and an attempt to control her. We cannot control others - nor should we try, it's a detriment to our 'self'. Again, this is just my opinion. 

In my situation - STBX is with posOM but her family and our children are unaware. Given what divorce is - it cannot be my responsibility to show 'all' how she is or what's she's doing. Believe me, it's not that the temptation is not there - it's an urge I must resist. Ultimately it's moving toward acceptance - that she is not accountable to me nor me to her.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ebb & Flow said:


> In my humble opinion - 'flushing her out' and exposing what she's up to is a wasted effort and an attempt to control her. We cannot control others - nor should we try, it's a detriment to our 'self'. Again, this is just my opinion.
> 
> In my situation - STBX is with posOM but her family and our children are unaware. Given what divorce is - it cannot be my responsibility to show 'all' how she is or what's she's doing. Believe me, it's not that the temptation is not there - it's an urge I must resist. Ultimately it's moving toward acceptance - that she is not accountable to me nor me to her.


We're talking past each other.

Her interaction with Voltaire's child is what's hurting him. Watching her lie. Watching her deceive and overlook her own offspring. It's hurting him.

Exposure stops that deception - in it's tracks.


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## Ebb & Flow (Mar 6, 2013)

Conrad - I understand... you're right we were not referring to that same issue.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ebb & Flow said:


> Conrad - I understand... you're right we were not referring to that same issue.


Appreciate the clarity.

All I can say is that when I'm in anguish - or emotionally 'stuck' - it helps to erect a boundary/change the dynamic.

Voltaire has the option of doing that here.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Conrad said:


> All I can say is that when I'm in anguish - or emotionally 'stuck' - it helps to erect a boundary/change the dynamic.


I'm not too keen on erecting emotional boundaries. The old me used to do that the whole time and it made me very closed hearted. I am trying to open my heart much more now and actively trying not to erect those emotional barriers that I erected before. But that's just me.

But "change the dynamic" - absolutely. And that is just what I am going to do.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Voltaire, 

I feel as though you are skirting the idea of exposure to protect her image, and not your own. 

I'm not sure why exposure goes against opening your heart. Truth can be delivered as gently or as vindictively as you wish to deliver it. Deliver it to your inner circle and to your children. 

Ebb, it's not about controlling her. It's about not letting the situation be controlled by her. Because at this point, it is. I think children will resent a cover up if it goes on for too long. 

The wayward's ideal world is always to hide the POSOM until the last possible moment. If they could, they would divorce and have the POSOM emerge as the 'new' boyfriend to family and friends a few weeks or months after the divorce. So why don't we just let them do that?


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

staystrong said:


> Voltaire,
> 
> I feel as though you are skirting the idea of exposure to protect her image, and not your own.


I don't really care about her image. Exposure is a means to an end. The ends, in this case, are injecting a bit of much needed honesty into the situation (for the sake of my kids) and hopefully achieving a bit of defogging. 

So how do you do that? Indiscriminate exposure (in the form of accusatory emails or phone calls) is not the way to go in this instance. The people who love and support her will buy the victim story, buy the "you're better off without him" story and will think it's great that she has found a new love. If they get an exposure email they will just take it as confirmation that I am bitter and angry and simply out to trash her reputation - every bit as bad, vengeful and vindictive as she has no doubt painted me.

I know none of OM's friends (or even friends of friends). Without any personal connection they are likely to think the same thing about a random email they get claiming to be from the husband of their friend's new girlfriend. What will they care about me, our kids, or her situation. They will just be glad that their friend is happy.

The people that need to be targeted are the people (very few in this instance) who can take a rounded balanced view of the entire situation and who can have enough influence on her to cause her to take a long hard look at her behaviour. 

I do, however, care about my own image and sending emails left, right and center to people you don't even know (e.g.his friends and colleagues) can so easily be painted as you being mad, desperate and out of control. 



> I'm not sure why exposure goes against opening your heart.


It doesn't. But then I don't see exposure as building an emotional boundary.



> Truth can be delivered as gently or as vindictively as you wish to deliver it.


You can control how you deliver a message but not how others hear it. 



> Deliver it to your inner circle and to your children.


In other words, as I say above, to those few people who can have some influence over her. Exposure for the sake of letting other people know just to try to trash someone's reputation is simply vengeful. That is not on my agenda. For me, exposure is a very deliberate act designed to bring about a particular result. How you go about it must be carefully planned in order to achieve that result.


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## rsersen (Jan 30, 2013)

You're being really smart about this, Volt. I would caution not to wait too long though - the farther down the road to divorce you get, the more the exposure is going to come across as a final parting shot on your behalf.

As it is, if you exposed to everyone you could think of - I don't think a lot of people would even care. If she's telling everyone that she's done, and everything is over besides the paperwork, then a lot of her friends and even her family will simply see this new guy as her moving on, and not as an affair. That's what I'm dealing with now. I don't agree with that mindset at all. If you're going to take a vow for life, and break it, the least you can do is wait until the ink is dry before sleeping with someone else (unless both partners explicitly agree that it's over and they should both see other people during the separation). But I'm in the minority I guess.

So yes, I think a small, influential group of people is the ticket here. And if you're worried about how the message will be heard, maybe deliver the message personally, instead of an email - sometimes what you're trying to convey can easily get lost in written communication.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

rsersen said:


> You're being really smart about this, Volt. I would caution not to wait too long though - the farther down the road to divorce you get, the more the exposure is going to come across as a final parting shot on your behalf.


Thanks - and agreed.




rsersen said:


> As it is, if you exposed to everyone you could think of - I don't think a lot of people would even care.


Exactly. A case in point - the mother of a friend of my son's is due to drop her son off later on today. Do I tell her? If I just blurt it out on the doorstep she will only become incredibly uncomfortable, get out of there as quickly as she can, and think I am a bit weird. 




rsersen said:


> If she's telling everyone that she's done, and everything is over besides the paperwork, then a lot of her friends and even her family will simply see this new guy as her moving on, and not as an affair.


Exactly. And she is going to present him as that anyway. But it's amazing how she has known him for a while but has become closer and closer to him from the point where our marriage began to break down back in October or so. And its amazing how he was ready and able to step into the emotional shoes of the departing husband within weeks (if not days) of the marriage being declared over (by her). 

The real issue, though, is that she sneaks out to see this guy, doesn't tell anyone and then accuses her own daughter of being "controlling" when she asks her where she has been. Apparently she is an adult and it is none of anybody's damn business where she has been. Even her own kids, when she chooses to spend significant periods of time with lover-boy rather than her own children. 



rsersen said:


> And if you're worried about how the message will be heard, maybe deliver the message personally, instead of an email - sometimes what you're trying to convey can easily get lost in written communication.


Indeed. When you are desperate to convince people that you are in the right then you usually fail - your palpable desperation undermines the credibility of your message.


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

Quote: Volt:Exactly. A case in point - the mother of a friend of my son's is due to drop her son off later on today. Do I tell her? If I just blurt it out on the doorstep she will only become incredibly uncomfortable, get out of there as quickly as she can, and think I am a bit weird. Quote;

How about if you said something like, I haven’t told many but because of your close relationship with our son I would like you to be aware if you’re not already just a little about what he is going through, can I talk to you about it briefly?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> Voltaire,
> 
> I feel as though you are skirting the idea of exposure to protect her image, and not your own.
> 
> ...


This is gospel truth.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

doureallycare2 said:


> How about if you said something like, I haven’t told many but because of your close relationship with our son I would like you to be aware if you’re not already just a little about what he is going through, can I talk to you about it briefly?


Good suggestion. However, exposure has to be done in a certain order for maximum effect. No point in telling a peripheral figure who will just tip off WS and give her a chance to cover up before you have told people much closer. 

I have always thought that this particular woman is a potential WAW herself.


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## rsersen (Jan 30, 2013)

Voltaire said:


> Good suggestion. However, exposure has to be done in a certain order for maximum effect. No point in telling a peripheral figure who will just tip off WS and give her a chance to cover up before you have told people much closer.
> 
> I have always thought that this particular woman is a potential WAW herself.


If you've gathered enough evidence, she shouldn't have a chance to cover up. She can take the relationship underground and hide it better going forward, and try to deny it to other people you tell, but with the evidence staring her in the face, that won't do her much good.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

rsersen said:


> If you've gathered enough evidence, she shouldn't have a chance to cover up.


It's not a trial, When you present the facts to other people you aren't going to give them a 27 page Powerpoint presentation outlining all the evidence. You are going to say "here are the facts" and give them an outline of things as you see it. She can, of course, then turn around and deny it all.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

I haven’t posted on here for a while as there are lots of legal shenanigans going on. As well as having to deal with it all I have to be really careful what I say.

She now knows that I know. I referred to OM in a legalistic email that her lawyers had to see. So she would have had to explain to them all about OM as well as the other man I referred to (an AP from years ago who she vowed never to contact again, but is now back in touch with). Exposing to lawyers is, I think, a great strategy because the WS can’t avoid the conversation with them and has to be completely honest with them – and they will ask some very direct questions. Of course I have no idea about my STBXW’s discussions with her lawyers, but if a WS has omitted a few inconvenient facts (such as existence of OM/OW) in giving a victim narrative to his/her lawyers then it would be very very awkward to have to explain to the lawyers that they “forgot” a few facts that don’t paint them in quite such a good light. You would feel so small having to make that sort of admission and you would just feel that they were silently condemning you. I do hope that she had one of those “errrr, why didn’t you tell us about this...” conversations with her lawyers.

So we had the argument about OM. She just shrugged off any suggestion that she did (or is doing) anything wrong. She is sticking to the “just good friends” and “I only met him a few weeks ago” lines as well as the “the marriage was over a long time ago (but I just didn’t bother to tell you)” justification. But she knows how hollow these sound. Deep down she knows the truth, and we all know that that tends to eat away at you. 

She is very angry with me, of course, and I am getting the full force of her bitterness – and she does bitter like no other person I know. Am not sure whether this will ever pass, but in the short term I am almost grateful for it as unrelenting bitterness with not a hint of warmth makes it much easier to detach. 

Meanwhile I get the feeling that tensions are already showing with OM. I may be wrong and this may just be wishful thinking, but I am going to back off and let them simmer. Guilt is pretty toxic for a relationship sooner or later, and if I try to do anything it will just push them together. I will just stir the pot gently by asking how it is going to work with him and the kids because I am pretty damn sure that he has absolutely zero interest in kids. I think that she has ignored this huge red flag up to now but I just want to drop it into her head and let it quietly rattle around for a while. 

I’m just going to put all of this on the shelf now. We have had the OM discussion, she has told me whatever stories she felt she had to tell me, and I know exactly what I think of her and her behaviour. No point in going over it again. It’s probably harder for her to deal with if I simply don’t engage because she will feel a need to justify herself – either by provoking anger to “prove” what a nasty man I am or by repeating her justification lines to me to try to get me to validate these. Full 180, be pleasant (whilst she behaves like a petulant teenager), move on. With her being so bitter even the Nice Guy in me feels absolutely no obligation to consider her at all. Me and the kids are all that count. She can paddle her own canoe.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> She can paddle her own canoe.


Some big things in that post but this is the important bit for me. Let her own that stuff and keep your focus closer to home!

Do the kids know yet?


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> Do the kids know yet?


Son is still pretty much in denial about the whole thing, so no,

Daughter had worked out some time ago that there was probably an OM and has asked STBXW about it a few times (only to get flat denials I understand). She doesn't know anything beyond what she had already worked out, but that is enough.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Hello, V, welcome back, been wondering where you were, if she were in the boot of your car. 

I can seriously relate to how much easier it is to detach when she is being awful, ice water for blodd, reptilian.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Good for you Volt.

And while you think her behavior towards you is bad it can get worse.

Just stand firm. The 180 is for you to detach.

At least she knows you are no longer accepting of her lies but her bad behavior will continue.

Keep working through your attorney.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Lie to yourself, lie to me, but to continually lie to the kids? Oh hell no!

Have you sat down and talked to D about her concerns? Not to confirm/deny but so she can talk about it?


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> Lie to yourself, lie to me, but to continually lie to the kids? Oh hell no!
> 
> Have you sat down and talked to D about her concerns? Not to confirm/deny but so she can talk about it?


I have a very good relationship with D and an on-going dialogue. STBXW can't stand it because her relationship with D stinks and she is pushing her further and further away. D asks for comfort and an explanation as to where her mother keeps going for very long periods of time when she chooses to be elsewhere (and we all know with whom) rather than in the family home. STBXW tells her that she does not owe anyone (and particularly not a "child") an explanation as she is an adult and can do what she pleases.

STBXW then accuses me of being too close to D and manipulating her and feeding her lines. D is, of course, too smart to be manipulated by anyone. Being smart and very perceptive, she just asks very relevant questions.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Voltaire said:


> I have a very good relationship with D and an on-going dialogue. STBXW can't stand it because her relationship with D stinks and she is pushing her further and further away. D asks for comfort and an explanation as to where her mother keeps going for very long periods of time when she chooses to be elsewhere (and we all know with whom) rather than in the family home. STBXW tells her that she does not owe anyone (and particularly not a "child") an explanation as she is an adult and can do what she pleases.


I'm awestruck that you are protecting your wife in this way.


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Conrad said:


> I'm awestruck that you are protecting your wife in this way.


Conrad, I have to admit your view on exposing the existence of infidelity to the kids has puzzled me a bit.

What good does it accomplish putting them in the middle of the parents problems?

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to find a therapist somewhere who would back me so I could feel ok with telling my girls the real reason their mom decided to sever their family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

spun said:


> Conrad, I have to admit your view on exposing the existence of infidelity to the kids has puzzled me a bit.
> 
> What good does it accomplish putting them in the middle of the parents problems?
> 
> ...


My understanding is that his daughter is old enough to understand what this is all about and it would actually answer her disquiet in a way that makes sense.

As it stands now, this is basically a version of Chinese water torture for the young lady.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

If my daughter was older I would tell her. 

For now it's been "sometimes adults change their minds about what they want, and your mom doesn't want to be with me anymore"


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Conrad said:


> My understanding is that his daughter is old enough to understand what this is all about and it would actually answer her disquiet in a way that makes sense.
> 
> As it stands now, this is basically a version of Chinese water torture for the young lady.


Conrad, I respect your point of view but please let me deal with my daughter in the way that I think is best for her as a responsible parent. She needs at least one of those.

Yes, she is old enough to understand what is going on. But that does not mean that she is emotionally ready to process it. This is a young woman at a very delicate stage of her development who is just learning to deal with her own sexuality. Having her mother’s shenanigans rammed down her throat could be incredibly damaging and could severely affect her own ability to form trusting, loving relationships with men as she grows older. If I inflicted that on her simply for my own agenda that could, in my view, be a form of abuse. 

In any case, she knows instinctively what is going on (even if she does not know the details, which would be too upsetting for her to deal with) and that she is being lied to. D has already asked mother some direct questions I understand. She is incredibly angry with her mother. Mother, of course, feels daughter’s anger and is upset by it and knows exactly why D is angry (even if she is kidding herself that it is a teenage phase). All of this happened without my intervention (despite STBXW’s accusations of my manipulating D). So I am not quite clear what else you think would happen or what would be achieved if D knew the full details as D's anger is already putting maximum pressure on STBXW and STBXW knows that her behaviour is the root cause of that anger (even if she is in denial about it). 

As for Chinese Water torture, I have an open and ongoing dialogue with D and she will ask appropriate questions as and when she is ready to deal with the answers. I'll follow her agenda, not mine.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

So if she asks directly she gets truth?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> So if she asks directly she gets truth?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well of course that depends exactly what the question is - leaving aside the circumstances here there are some things that you just wouldn't discuss in detail with a 15 year old. You wouldn't discuss the details of your own sex life, for example. 

But broadly speaking she will get an open honest but age appropriate response to the question that she asked so long as I believed that she could deal with the answer. But in general I trust her and in most cases she wouldn't ask the question if she couldn't handle the answer.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

My IC says to never hide the truth but be age appropriate.

She also said if try to protect the kids by concealing the facts
the kids could end up resenting me more than their cheating mother.

My 2 cents
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I can't get much past S12 and he is a typically distracted boy. A 15yr old girl is going to be seeing and understanding plenty imo.

I know no one likes being preached to about parenting but I do think sometimes trying to "protect" them can in fact be the wrong thing for them. She will hate being treated like a "kid" despite the fact she still is one. She may also end up taking away that Mum's behavior is acceptable which is a very scary thought regarding a teenage girl.

I really don't envy the position V, just don't risk your own integrity for stbx shady behavior. One parent lying or misleading is bad enough, they need to see integrity and strength in action from you at this time i think.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Volt

No one is telling you to ram your wife's Shenanigans down your D's throat.

I have 19, 13 and 11 year old girls.

You would be amazed at what they know, would understand and can process at their ages.

But I never shield them from anything and keep it appropriate for their ages.

And they are wiser for it.

Only you can be the judge of that.

Just do not blindside her. Kids are tough.

And I agree she should not be in the middle.

So sad your wife is so selfish.

HM64


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

GutPunch said:


> My IC says to never hide the truth but be age appropriate.
> 
> She also said if try to protect the kids by concealing the facts
> the kids could end up resenting me more than their cheating mother.
> ...


Thanks for that. That's pretty much my view, which is borne out by my strengthening relationship with my D who really appreciates my honesty and the fact that i am really making time for her. My son is still in denial to an extent but I have spoken to him and told him that he can come and talk whenever he likes - and I remind him of that without hassling him every few days. 

But I wait for questions to be asked and then answer them as openly and honestly as I can. If you just dump a whole load of information on the kids there are two dangers. The first is that you overload them with things that they're just not ready to deal with or process emotionally. It's really hard for them to deal with one parent turning their back on another parent. The second danger is that you end up telling them things because YOU have a need/desire for them to know things rather than because THEY have a need to know things. It's far, far too easy to allow yourself to try to dump your agenda on them which would be completely wrong. 

Believe it or not (and my STBXW certainly wouldn't) I actually try very hard to get our D not to give up completely on her mother. She needs both parents.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> I can't get much past S12 and he is a typically distracted boy. A 15yr old girl is going to be seeing and understanding plenty imo.
> 
> I know no one likes being preached to about parenting but I do think sometimes trying to "protect" them can in fact be the wrong thing for them. She will hate being treated like a "kid" despite the fact she still is one. She may also end up taking away that Mum's behavior is acceptable which is a very scary thought regarding a teenage girl.
> 
> I really don't envy the position V, just don't risk your own integrity for stbx shady behavior. One parent lying or misleading is bad enough, they need to see integrity and strength in action from you at this time i think.


Everything you say is right, but I don't do that.

I don't say "there is stuff here that I can't tell you about". I tell her "there is stuff here you can ask me about when you are ready" - but actually I don't tell her that because I don't have to - she knows.

As everyone here says, she is far from dumb and she worked out on her own that there was an OM. But so far OM is a concept, a shadow and so is easier for her to deal with. She is not yet ready to make it seem far, far more real by seeing a name and a face. But she knows that she can ask questions about his identity when she is ready - again she is bright and intuitive and has worked out that I know.

But the details of who, where and when are not really that important at the end of the day. She knows intuitively what is going on and is reacting to it emotionally.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

> As everyone here says, she is far from dumb and *she worked out on her own that there was an OM*. But so far OM is a concept, a shadow and so is easier for her to deal with. She is not yet ready to make it seem far, far more real by seeing a name and a face. But she knows that she can ask questions about his identity when she is ready - *again she is bright and intuitive and has worked out that I know.*
> 
> But the details of who, where and when are not really that important at the end of the day. *She knows intuitively* what is going on and is reacting to it emotionally.


Sorry, how do you know she knows? Just curious. I may have missed that part.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

Cos teenage girls miss NOTHING - my 16 year old knew my ex had moved his girlfriend in before I did because she'd heard a conversation and put two and two together

If the mother is disappearing every weekend and being defensive about where she's going it's pretty obvious. Personally I think it's being handled the right way (by V, not by the mother who is storing up problems for herself down the line). It's very easy to forget that they are still emotionally immature when they often act like mini adults


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

staystrong said:


> Sorry, how do you know she knows? Just curious. I may have missed that part.


Hi SS. 

She knows. 

Sorry to sound defensive but I'm not going to give complete chapter and verse on what passes between me and my daughter on here both because it is private and because I am facing the most aggressive unreasonable SOB set of lawyers I have ever come across and they will twist ANYTHING I write if they ever came across it. Much as I love all you guys and value your support I'm just not going to take the risk of writing "I said this..." and "she said that..." Sorry, but I have to keep it very high level and general and a little bit vague.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

GutPunch said:


> My IC says to never hide the truth but be age appropriate.
> 
> She also said if try to protect the kids by concealing the facts
> the kids could end up resenting me more than their cheating mother.
> ...


Absolutely

This is how the world works.

If you choose to lie for her, you are her co-conspirator.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> Hi SS.
> 
> She knows.
> 
> Sorry to sound defensive but I'm not going to give complete chapter and verse on what passes between me and my daughter on here both because it is private and because I am facing the most aggressive unreasonable SOB set of lawyers I have ever come across and they will twist ANYTHING I write if they ever came across it. Much as I love all you guys and value your support I'm just not going to take the risk of writing "I said this..." and "she said that..." Sorry, but I have to keep it very high level and general and a little bit vague.


No prob. Understood. 

My concern as a father is that my own daughters will repeat the actions of their mother, my STBXW a WW. I think they think on some level if mom does it then it's okay. Even if at the surface level it makes them upset and angry.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> I don't say "there is stuff here that I can't tell you about". I tell her *"there is stuff here you can ask me about when you are ready" - but actually I don't tell her that* because I don't have to - she knows....
> 
> But the details of who, where and when are not really that important at the end of the day. She knows intuitively what is going on and is reacting to it emotionally.


I agree that the who, where and when are not really important. 

But I'm wondering what is wrong with actually telling her that she can ask you when she is ready? She may already know, but reinforcing the fact that she has someone she can talk to and can ask any question she likes and get an honest answer can't hurt. 

I know my parents love me and are there for me. But to this day, when I am emotional, hearing them tell me that still has a calming effect.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Conrad said:


> If you choose to lie for her, you are her co-conspirator.


Conrad, why do you think I am doing that?

With all due respect, you seem to see things in incredibly Black and White terms. Forgive me if I misunderstand you, but you seem to think (with some exaggeration for dramatic effect!) that unless I give my daughter names, photos, times, dates, places, details of sexual positions and recordings of orgasms I am lying for my wife. 

She knows what is going on at a level that a 15 year old girl can handle - at the level of detail that she has chosen to ask about. Her mother knows she knows. 

What more do you think would be achieved by giving a 15 year old girl hard details, which unless I have you wrong seems to be what you are saying I should do?


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

staystrong said:


> No prob. Understood.
> 
> My concern as a father is that my own daughters will repeat the actions of their mother, my STBXW a WW. I think they think on some level if mom does it then it's okay. Even if at the surface level it makes them upset and angry.


Mine too. But she knows its wrong.

Mind you, my wife knows the way her own mother treated her was wrong but she seems determined to repeat that in a milder form with her own children.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> Conrad, why do you think I am doing that?
> 
> With all due respect, you seem to see things in incredibly Black and White terms. Forgive me if I misunderstand you, but you seem to think (with some exaggeration for dramatic effect!) that unless I give my daughter names, photos, times, dates, places, details of sexual positions and recordings of orgasms I am lying for my wife.
> 
> ...


I don't think Conrad is saying give details, only that she deserves the truth. If Mum is off with a POSOM instead of her girls, they deserve to know. It depends what you know and what you suspect. If it is still just suspect then yeah you have to walk a line. However if you know, for sure, why should D be in the dark and second guessing everything when she probably already 'knows' on some level anyway?

You question how/who to expose to? Immediate family is a bare minimum. 15 year old girls know plenty and see plenty. Why leave her doubting what she see's when she can have the truth?

Ideal way IMO, would be to have hard proof that STBX cannot deny then tell her she informs D with you present or you tell D yourself.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Thanks KC - well said.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Today I'm having an "up" day. I know that there will be more down days ahead, but I'm going to enjoy today for what it is.

I have had a horrible and very upsetting week with unnecessary threats of legal action and having had to sign the divorce papers that were served on me. But today I'm putting that behind me. 

I worked out that one of the things that has made it really hard on me for the past few months has been the feeling of being under constant attack - attacked when she was shutting me out when all the red flags were going off in the months prior to the D-bomb, attacked when she had to convince herself that I was the worst sort of man and a terrible husband so she could say to herself that she just "had to" leave me, attacked when she submitted a divorce petition with some of the most hateful vitriolic statements my lawyer had seen in divorce papers in a long time, attacked when she felt guilty, attacked when the victim narrative started to slip and she panicked, attacked when the kids (particularly D) turned against her sneaking around and she blamed me for it, attacked when I exposed her, attacked when it doesn't seem to be going so well with OM, attacked now because her life isn't panning out the way she had hoped and its all my fault

But now that I have worked that out I can just treat her like a petulant teenager who hits out at any excuse. 

Today I am resolutely cheerful and all those who want to drag me down are powerless. Tomorrow may be different but today is wonderful.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Volt

I am glad you are up today.

Stay there. You are powerless to change the direction your wife has chosen.



> I worked out that one of the things that has made it really hard on me for the past few months has been the feeling of being under constant attack - attacked when she was shutting me out when all the red flags were going off in the months prior to the D-bomb, attacked when she had to convince herself that I was the worst sort of man and a terrible husband so she could say to herself that she just "had to" leave me, attacked when she submitted a divorce petition with some of the most hateful vitriolic statements my lawyer had seen in divorce papers in a long time, attacked when she felt guilty, attacked when the victim narrative started to slip and she panicked, attacked when the kids (particularly D) turned against her sneaking around and she blamed me for it, attacked when I exposed her, attacked when it doesn't seem to be going so well with OM, attacked now because her life isn't panning out the way she had hoped and its all my fault


What a shame you could not put those words you have written above into your wifes hands and just asked her to "STOP".

Go your own way but stop the attacks.

But when these waywards get something into their brains to justify their hurtful actions know this, there is nothing you can do but to move on and have a great life without them.

Have a great day!


HM64


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> Have a great day!
> 
> 
> HM64


Thanks for that and thanks as ever for your wise and encouraging words.

Sadly if we had the power to put sensible thoughts into our WAW's heads then we could probably save a good 75% of the heartache on this site.


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

happyman64 said:


> .
> 
> But when these waywards get something into their brains to justify their hurtful actions know this, there is nothing you can do but to move on and have a great life without them.
> 
> ...


Sometimes I wonder how long It will take before I have to stop reminding my self of this and it will just happen. Some days its like pulling your feet out of quick-sand.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Yes. I remember the quicksand. 

I learned early on to walk around it. 
:lol:


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> Thanks for that and thanks as ever for your wise and encouraging words.
> 
> Sadly if we had the power to put sensible thoughts into our WAW's heads then we could probably save a good 75% of the heartache on this site.


What never ceases to amaze me Volt is that the WAH's and WAW's mentality during their affair fantasy is just retarded.

All reasoning with them goes in one ear and out the other. And they are incapable in most cases of even listening to what you are saying.

And in most cases their only response is anger towards the betrayed.

How do you reason with a crazy person??
*
The answer is you don't!*


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Regardless of affair or WAW, the seem to regress to teenage levels of emotional thinking. Mrs.c is back to fantasising about someone making her heart flutter because oh I have never felt that way (can you picture a melodramatic almost feinting pose) despite the fact she used to say that same stuff to me.

They forget all the reality and go chasing after dreams. Hell Mrs.C has always had slightly dodgy tastes in music but has even started really liking 1 Direction ffs.  :rofl:

Liking that dross to me says all that needs to be said about how away with the fairies a fully grown woman can get.


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## rsersen (Jan 30, 2013)

KC and happy have it right. After 5 weeks with her boyfriend, my STBX is head over heels, never felt this way about anyone, this must be what true love is, I spent the last 8 years throwing that word around without meaning it, blah blah blah. You just have to laugh at it.

Worst part is, one of her best friends is pursuing a degree in psychology right now. The one person who should be able to see through the fog and shake my X by the shoulders, and instead she's apparently become head of the cheerleading squad. Or maybe she really is smart enough to know that trying to reason with crazy would be a futile effort, and just takes the path of least resistance.

And I could understand all of that, but the post-marriage attacks and revisionist history are things I'll never be able to forgive. You wanna go? Fine. We're letting you go, we're not putting up a fight. Why on earth do you feel the need to make us out to be the spawn of Satan on top of everything else you've done? It's unbelievable.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> Regardless of affair or WAW, the seem to regress to teenage levels of emotional thinking. Mrs.c is back to fantasising about someone making her heart flutter because oh I have never felt that way (can you picture a melodramatic almost feinting pose) despite the fact she used to say that same stuff to me.
> 
> They forget all the reality and go chasing after dreams. Hell Mrs.C has always had slightly dodgy tastes in music but has even started really liking 1 Direction ffs.  :rofl:
> 
> Liking that dross to me says all that needs to be said about how away with the fairies a fully grown woman can get.


all true.

But I (and I think maybe you) had my/our own form of madness. I looked at my responsibilities in life - briging up kids, continuing to provide for the family by making a lot of money in a avery ageist industry (I was on the wrong side of the age barrier) going through huge recession. I looked at those thing, panicked and fell into a deep (but not very obvious) depression.

I think that WAWs and WAHs just have their own form of madness./ Rather that taking responsibility for providing for their families, providng love for their partner and for their part of keeping the marriage on track they abdicate all responsibility. They begin to look around to see how they can find someone to provide all of that for them. They are life's takers rather than life's givers.

Then, of course, the self-deception starts - followed by the deception of others to support their warped world view. Warped to make them out to be people who deserve to be supported in life rather than adults who should be shouldering responsibility to support themselves and others, financially and emotionally. Sounds like a teenager, doesn't it?


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

I would just like to pipe up and say that men do this too - my ex is saying to his new girlfriend exactly what he said to me when he split with his last (I was so unhappy and such an angry person but I'm not like that now, ya di ya)

If he could actually hear himself!

Key thing to remember - they are doing it because they have to, self-protection. Otherwise they have to face up to their behaviour and be critical of themselves. There's nothing easier than telling yourself what an awesome person you are and how everyone else is the bad guy right?


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Oh yes. Batsh1t crazy is crazy regardless of male or female. This teenage type behaviour and visions of how the world should be seems so prevelant.

Funny that Mrs.C listening to 1D should brave what brought the thought. Especially ad she wasn't really into boy bands that much before.

I may have gone loco but as I get better I don't think I am the only one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

One Direction? Rilly?


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Yes. She didn't really like Take That as a girl despite being the right age and them actually having a modicum of talent nor really any other boy bands. She has always been more 80's inclined but now in this weird mindset she is in, 1D are worth actually paying for their songs. Jls before that come to think.

The world is going mad I tells ya.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

K.C. said:


> Yes. She didn't really like Take That as a girl despite being the right age and them actually having a modicum of talent nor really any other boy bands. She has always been more 80's inclined but now in this weird mindset she is in, 1D are worth actually paying for their songs. Jls before that come to think.
> 
> The world is going mad I tells ya.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is because Mrs. C thinks she is 12 years old.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Dollystanford said:


> I would just like to pipe up and say that men do this too - my ex is saying to his new girlfriend exactly what he said to me when he split with his last (I was so unhappy and such an angry person but I'm not like that now, ya di ya)
> 
> If he could actually hear himself!
> 
> Key thing to remember - they are doing it because they have to, self-protection. Otherwise they have to face up to their behaviour and be critical of themselves. There's nothing easier than telling yourself what an awesome person you are and how everyone else is the bad guy right?


Absolutely - that's why I said "WAW or WAH" above!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

happyman64 said:


> That is because Mrs. C thinks she is 12 years old.


If she was acting that way in general this would maybe be easier but she is as mature and sensible as ever about everything other than relationships and stupid music heh. 

If she was actually being irresponsible I would have something to point at other than being dumped and her taste in music going from bad to worst!

I do believe there is truth behind it though. She wants life and especially love to be like how she imagined as a teen before the real world got in the way.

I have been far from prince charming so I was first to go. Thinking on I don't know of my going was a cause or a symptom though. Maybe the craziness is a response to being on her own for the first time in forever rather than being a contributing cause? Either way it blinds her to the reality of what she is doing imo and there is little to no chance of her waking up while in that place.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

So had an odd time today.

Something happened that made me stop being so angry......but the anger blocks the sadness and when I stopped being angry I got very upset. 

But I guess that's one of those valleys you have to go through. Being less angry certainly seems more peaceful, and hopefully another step on the road to recovery and detachment. 

Meanwhile I got home and found son at home all alone. Don't know if W's just gone out for a coffee or whether she has snuck off to be with POSOM, intending to be out for hours as usual. Grrrrr...I can feel that anger rising again.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

All you can do is love your boy because your wife is incapable.

Her head is so far up her pooper that her brain is not functioning properly due to lack of oxygen....


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

For me, it works like this...

Anger occurs so that I don't feel shame. 

When the anger is gone, I start to feel the shame of rejection again.

"How could you do this to me?" "I thought you loved me?"

It's a cycle.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

staystrong said:


> For me, it works like this...
> 
> Anger occurs so that I don't feel shame.
> 
> ...


It is a cycle, and IMO the only way to break it is to let go of the anger. Anger is attached behaviour - when you are angry at someone you care what they think and do. You care what happens to them. 

You only break the cycle when you let go of the anger and you stop caring what they think and do and what happens to them. 

Unfortunately, as you and I have both experienced that anger keeps some really hurtful emotions at bay, and when you set the anger aside then those feelings come tumbling out. But IMO that's part of the healing process. You can't heel with the anger and with those other feelings bottled up inside you. 

But if you don't let the anger back in you only have to go through that once. If you react by bringing back the anger then it does become, as you say, a cycle - and you have to go through that pain multiple times.

I comfort myself with this thought (not a very noble one, but a comforting one). Whilst I feel anger, she feels under attack. Whilst she feels under attack (and her behaviour condemned) she defends herself by telling herself lots of stories to "prove" that she is right and did the right thing. Once I drop my anger she lowers her defenses and stops feeling the need to convince herself that she is right 24/7. And only once she does that can she actually start to question what she has done. So me dropping my anger is the only way to get her to go through any kind of introspection and to feel the pain of guilt and remorse. 

Anyway, I'm working hard to keep this feeling of peace and hoping that I will get my first good night's sleep for a very long time. And tomorrow I'll be stronger as a result.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

The anger keeps those emotions at bay, but it also keeps detachment at bay too. I haven't made as much progress as I would have liked, but of what detachment I have managed, none came while angry.

Sleep, peace, calm. Strength. Sounds like a plan to me V.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

So today being Sunday it's the day for STBXW to disappear off with her boyfriend. Didn't even bother to tell me this week. I went to church and while I was there she just told the kids she was off and left. 

It doesn't really bother me unless I start to have more graphic images of them together in my mind - not necessarily sex but intimacy. I'm still finding it hard to come to terms with the fact that they are going for a dirty weekend together in a few weekends time - and she is still pretending that she is going to see her mother. 

I'm just thinking that if I try to disrupt or stand in the way of the relationship it will be futile (I can't keep her locked up) and it will just strengthen their determination to be together. I'm just going to let it run its course and hope that the guilt kills it off - as well as the fact that of course he is attractive because he is the mirror image of me and pours greasy attention over her but ultimately they don't have that much in common. 

That fits in with my general tactic which is to back off and avoid anger and confrontation with STBXW. It's only once she doesn't feel under attack any more that she may stop and reflect and some guilt and remorse may creep in. May. At this point I really don't know if she is capable of taking responsibility for anything or for feeling any shame.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

> That fits in with my general tactic which is to back off and avoid anger and confrontation with STBXW. It's only once she doesn't feel under attack any more that she may stop and reflect and some guilt and remorse may creep in. May. At this point I really don't know if she is capable of taking responsibility for anything or for feeling any shame.


I hope this works for you. Are you going to document her or PI her weekend tryst?

Are you still moving forward with the divorce?


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> I hope this works for you. Are you going to document her or PI her weekend tryst?
> 
> Are you still moving forward with the divorce?


Don't have the cash for a PI but I certainly document every time she chooses to spend most of her leisure time with OM rather than with her children. 

She is divorcing me, so it's full speed ahead from her end.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Gotcha!

And Volt, your wife is going to crash. It might be in 6 months or a year. 

She might even be remarried by then.

But mark my words she is going to crash.

It is inevitable. We have seen it on Tam a hundred times.

The key is to not be there to catch her.

Keep moving forward. Because she has left you no choice......


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> Gotcha!
> 
> And Volt, your wife is going to crash. It might be in 6 months or a year.
> 
> ...


Oh, you are absolutely right. 

I just want to be there to see it. Ideally I would like it to happen soon so that the question of whether we remain married or not is in my hands, not hers. I would also like to see the POSOM run off with his tail between his legs. But I accept that in most cases it happens well after D, not before. 

That's why, if anything, I want her A to progress as quickly as possible so that that ridiculous relationship falls apart sooner rather than later. 





happyman64 said:


> The key is to not be there to catch her.
> 
> Keep moving forward. Because she has left you no choice......


Again, I want it to be my choice whether to catch her or not, whether to discard her or whether to take her back and go for R. That depends in part on how far this OM relationship goes, how much genuine remorse she shows when she sees sense and how far out of the door I am by the time it happens. Again, although I would love it to happen in the next few weeks I accept that that is extremely unlikely and I have to be prepared for it to happen in a year or two's time.

Interestingly I have just had a long chat with a female friend of the family who can't believe what WAW is doing - and this is a woman who has been very unhappy with her own husband in the past. She said that my WAW had completely lost touch with reality.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

No reality whatsoever. But you cannot catch her. She has to hit rock bottom and come back to of her own free will. 

She has to know and feel you are not her plan b. 

But worry about that if you get there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> No reality whatsoever. But you cannot catch her. She has to hit rock bottom and come back to of her own free will.


Oh yes - I didn;t mean catch her on the way down. I meant that I might, if I chose, help her recover from rock bottom once she has had a very hard landing. 

I don't take too much pleasure from the idea of seeing her have a hard landing but it is absolutely necessary for de-fogging and for feeling real remorse and fully realising how much pain she has caused others, including her own children.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

I have decided that this week is detachment week.

I have let go of a lot of my anger and feel much more peaceful - although it doesn't take much to get me worked up again, in particular when she is around. I need to go further.

I need to think about my future and not our past (or worse still her future and what she is up to with OM).

It won't be easy, but at least it's a goal I can work towards. I know there will be times when I fail, but I'll just pick myself up and start again. It's a bit like meditation when your thoughts wander - you just have to keep bringing them back to where they should be time after time.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

A couple of things happened today that made the future seem much brighter. They weren't even big things, but they put my focus firmly on the future and gave me a much more concrete vision of what a good life without STBXW could be like. Suddenly her sneaking around and her bitterness just seemed like the pitiable actions of a small-minded and damaged individual, not something that is holding my life to ransom.

It's truly amazing what a change of perspective can do.

I'm under no illusion that this is all one big rollercoaster and today's feelings of well-being and optimism will probably give way to more negative feelings. But for now I feel happy and at peace for the first time in months and I'm going to enjoy it whilst it lasts.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Carpe Diem.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

I’ve generally been pretty good at detaching this week, but had a big bust up last night (continued in a calmer way this moring). Bust up was initially caused by her sneaking around with OM without even telling me that she was going out and leaving the kids with me for 10+ hours on a weekend. She swore blind that she had told me. Got into all sorts of other stuff – why the relationship broke down. She says that it was just down to the two of us, which I find very frustrating because it completely ignores her pouring her heart out to someone else, her secrecy, etc. She doesn’t see any of these as factors at all whereas I see them as central to the breakdown of our marriage. I also told her that whilst we were still married (in process of D) she should at least out of common decency told me that she was having a R with OM. I also said that we could deal with the situation more amicably and maturely if she would admit his existence (she half admits it but then pulls the “only good friends” line). 

Anyway this morning I said that whilst I thought she was mishandling the situation very badly I respected her decision to keep it all secret if that was how she wanted to play it. It was actually very liberating letting her own her behaviour. And she felt better too, it seems, because we were suddenly more cordial with each other than we have been in a while.

I guess I was in that mindset where I wanted to be proven right and for everyone to recognise that her behaviour was really very bad. Giving up on that is a big part of detaching. As I have said many times above, anger is actually very attached behaviour. So is a thirst for “justice” in the form of being proved right or being shown to be the injured party. 

The odd thing too is that she is getting everything she wants – the D she wanted and now she has OM – but she looks miserable and told me that she is living life “day to day”. Me and the kids are all being dragged along with her plan for “happiness” but she is the least happy person I know ATM. And still the fog won’t lift – and perhaps never will. But she can own the fog. I’m thinking more and more of my future without her.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

That's the one future available to us at this point. Similar here. Though no OM I cannot compete with teenage type fantasies of what life could be like nor will she admit that has anything to do with it despite me seeing it in her own words.

I have my hands full with sorting myself out. The only future I have is without her. Still sucks but I can now say that without tearing up and leaving the room my kids are in. Letting to let's you progress.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> That's the one future available to us at this point. Similar here. Though no OM I cannot compete with teenage type fantasies of what life could be like nor will she admit that has anything to do with it despite me seeing it in her own words.
> 
> I have my hands full with sorting myself out. The only future I have is without her. Still sucks but I can now say that without tearing up and leaving the room my kids are in. Letting to let's you progress.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks, KC. Your last sentence is spot on. In a funny sort of way I am beginning to think that LBS's are actually much better at letting go than WS's because they have to be. 

I was comforted by reading a little snipped in Psychologies magazine (just browsing at the news stand, honest!!) that said that when one person in a relationship has an affair it is usually the cheated on spouse who recovers better and faster. That is because they only have one direction to go - forwards - whereas the partner who had the affair has all sorts of conflicting things to deal with and it isn't clear what direction they should be moving in.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Now you are learning Volt.

"Let Her Go" 

It is what she think she wants but it certainly will not guarantee her happiness.

But the quicker you detach the quicker you can move on with your life.

Maybe since it is all coming out she will pay more attention to your kids.

I doubt but maybe she will come out of the fog a little.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

I'm getting into new territory here and I don't quite know how to play it. There are some small signs that she is softening very very slightly towards me. I'm not quite sure what it means or what to do about it.

It could mean that the guilt is beginning to get to her (in which case this is going to be a roller-coaster ride because guilt oscillates between remorse and anger - and I've actually seen a little of that today)

It could mean that I am less angry and she is responding to that.

It could mean that she senses me distancing myself from her and she doesn't like that. Despite the fact that she is pursuing divorce like a woman possessed perhaps she does still see me as Plan B and she doesn't like it evaporating. 

What it doesn't mean is that any sort of huge hallelujah "I've made a terrible mistake" moment is just around the corner because OM is still in the picture. In fact, rather pathetically she is beginning to dress like him - out goes the sophisticated feminine look and in comes fleeces, jeans and walking boots. That's exactly what he wears and she seems desperate to ape him and to look like the outdoors type that she absolutely isn't. This has "crash and burn" written all over it.

But I don't quite know how to play these softer moments. I don;t want to let her in but I don't want to completely push her away either. She takes rejection very badly and is likely not to try again if harshly rejected once. I want her to feel that if she wants to cozy up to me she is going to have to try very, very hard - but that it is not completely impossible. Any suggestions?

Meanwhile I've got a lot of passive-aggressive sulking behaviour in the past couple of hours. Perhaps that's the guilt pendulum, or perhaps that's because she has found the book that she gave me for Christmas in the trash. It's OK for her to treat our marriage as disposable but throwing away a book (she didn't even bother to write anything in it when she gave it to me) is a mortal sin. I'm just laughing at this behaviour now (which is good because it makes me feel more in control).


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I would guess you carry on as you are. So long as OM is in the picture there is no point even considering what ifs.

Her mannerism within the situation may have changed but has the actual situation. Has her actual behaviour for that matter?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Hi, Voltaire.

I'm in a similar situation, not sure how to play a slight softening in W's attitude towards me. And not sure what to make of it. She's coming over tonight to spend a couple hours together. I don't expect any breakthroughs either. I expect more of the same talk (no chance of R, etc.). But the change in behavior is intriguing. I will validate what she's saying but observe her behavior without reading too much into it. I'm going to try to keep my distance for now, 50,000 ft as they say.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> I would guess you carry on as you are. So long as OM is in the picture there is no point even considering what ifs.
> 
> Her mannerism within the situation may have changed but has the actual situation. Has her actual behaviour for that matter?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not a great deal of change in any department. It's just about the subtle signals of turning tides. 

I am getting better at being indifferent without being angry or dismissive and perhaps it is just a response to that.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Just carry on regardless. How she responds to your changes is up to her. So long as you like your changes you keep to it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Canardo said:


> Hi, Voltaire.
> 
> I'm in a similar situation, not sure how to play a slight softening in W's attitude towards me. And not sure what to make of it. She's coming over tonight to spend a couple hours together. I don't expect any breakthroughs either. I expect more of the same talk (no chance of R, etc.). But the change in behavior is intriguing. I will validate what she's saying but observe her behavior without reading too much into it. I'm going to try to keep my distance for now, 50,000 ft as they say.


I guess it's just about being watchful and wary.

And definitely letting her do the chasing


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> Not a great deal of change in any department. It's just about the subtle signals of turning tides.
> 
> I am getting better at being indifferent without being angry or dismissive and perhaps it is just a response to that.


You remain indifferent.

I call it cool,calm and dispassionate.

You are not her Plan B.

And she is beginning to understand that.

Keep going....


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> Just carry on regardless. How she responds to your changes is up to her. So long as you like your changes you keep to it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





happyman64 said:


> You remain indifferent.
> 
> I call it cool,calm and dispassionate.
> 
> ...


Thanks, KC and HM64 - all good advice as usual


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

You're still analysing her actions towards you - don't do it. It's irrelevant. Who knows why she's doing what she's doing? Who cares? No-one likes to know that someone's over them. My ex told me we should 'move on' months ago. Except I think he just meant he should move on because he really doesn't like it that I have


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Dollystanford said:


> You're still analysing her actions towards you - don't do it. It's irrelevant. Who knows why she's doing what she's doing? Who cares? No-one likes to know that someone's over them.


Well, sort of. I'm observing rather than analysing. And mostly today I've been observing the wheels coming off her dream. It makes me feel stronger that at last I seem to be doing better than her, it makes me feel more in control and the ability to watch her suffer without the slightest desire to comfort her (and perhaps even a little pleasure at her discomfort) makes me feel like I'm getting over her. 

And the idea that she is realising that I am getting over her and doesn't like it makes me feel good too.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

How's it going V?


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> How's it going V?


Interesting times.

Went away for a few days with te kids. She suggested it, and I knew that when she suggested it she just wanted us out of the way so she can spend a dirty weekend with POSOM. I went anyway simply because it was for the good of the kids. 

Now from what I can see POSOM is an out and out narcissist. Can't help himself. Today a friend sent me a link to a photo of himself he posted on the internet a couple of weeks ago - naked torso down to (and just including the top of) his pen1s. Looking through his album I find some photos of them naked in bed together this weekend - nicely tagged with time and place - the place being the city where she was supposed to be visiting her family but in fact went with him. Faces disguised, but I can tell that it is her with him. They're trying to be discrete about all of this, but as I say he just can't help himself. 

I thought I would be very, very upset, but I'm not. I want to say that it's like a switch has been flicked in my head and suddenly I just don't care about her any more, but I'm sure it's not that simple - but that's how I feel at the moment. I was upset over the weekend thinking about them together, but now I've seen the pictures I just feel quite cold about it. 

Everyone I've shown his profile to says "what a complete a-hole". He only posts pictures of himself (no-one else features) in either "look at me, I'm an action man" situations or really pretentious poses. Clearly the attraction is that he is the complete and absolute opposite of me in every way possible (I am very glad to say!). I have heard people here (Conrad, maybe?) talk about women "trading down" when they have affairs. Does anyone have any info on that? 

Anyway, the bottom line is that her appalling behaviour just seems to make it easier and easier to turn my back and walk away. It feels like I'm finally really ready to do that. Anger had been the main thing holding me back (anger really does keep you attached to the object of that anger) but now I feel like a cat who is playing with a mouse. She doesn't know that I know and I will play my hand when I feel good and ready.


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

Ugh.. That just makes me want to Vomit!!! That’s what it comes down to.. You just get more disgusted then hurt.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Voltaire said:


> Interesting times.
> 
> Went away for a few days with te kids. She suggested it, and I knew that when she suggested it she just wanted us out of the way so she can spend a dirty weekend with POSOM. I went anyway simply because it was for the good of the kids.
> 
> ...


Brother,

Remember when you told us she just wasn't that into the physical stuff. I had a feeling it was like this.

Most of them are "into it" - just not with us.

Same with Hermes, lather, rinse, repeat.

If someone feels bad about themselves, they're likely to affair down. Sounds like she's really scraping bottom.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Remember when you told us she just wasn't that into the physical stuff. I had a feeling it was like this.
> 
> Most of them are "into it" - just not with us.
> .


I think what I said (and what I certainly meant) wasn't that she wasn't into it, but that she was very shy about it. I think that this may have been their first time together - but I may be wrong.

Anyway, I've just been reading about how narcissists actually take pleasure in getting someone to love them and then dumping them - its a big ego boost to win someone's adoration but an even bigger ego boost to see that person devastated by you walking away. I'e also been reading about how charming narcissists suddenly turn nasty once they have won you and got your love/devotion. Well, maybe he has just made the "conquest" and the charm is going to be turned off and the degradation, put downs and humiliation are about to start. 

Either way, I don't care too much. It'll just be interesting to have a ringside seat.


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Brother,
> 
> Sounds like she's really scraping bottom.


ugh you can say that again!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Shy people don't have nude pictures of themselves on Facebook


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> I think what I said (and what I certainly meant)
> Anyway, I've just been reading about how narcissists actually take pleasure in getting someone to love them and then dumping them - .


Well there is no bigger Narcissist than mstbxh, the mc told him he was right in front of me. Do you know that counseling rarely works on a narcissist? Why? Because it’s all about them? 

They love it being about them if they go to IC they love that because the focus is on them but they will not let you turn it to what they don’t want to hear and if you go to MC it’s all about them but won’t let anyone have any control but them. My stbxh had numerous PA and 1 EA. as far as I know he dumped all of them. 

So I think your right, I think he took a great deal of pleasure thinking he was a "ladies man" that he could "play" with these woman and even "play" with my emotions and keep me attached all these years. I know he deeply hurt the last one he had the EA with when he broke up with her. Like I have said before he showed me her letter to him then years later when he was hoping to rekindle the A after he H passed away she told him no because he broke her trust and that hurt him... The narcissist was hurt but for how long? Only long enough to go on to his next A. 

If this OM truly is a Narcissist and it sounds like he is, (I know he at least sounds a disgusting as hell) he will hurt her. I hope you’re not there to pick up the pieces like I was. She needs to do it on her own and bare the consequences for her actions.


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## Bullwinkle (Feb 4, 2013)

Damn, DYRC, great post.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

At least you know exactly how far it's gone now. No nagging doubt that you could be wrong.

Sounds like she is on an express ride to rock bottom. When you pass her on your way up, dont let her snag you.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Shy people don't have nude pictures of themselves on Facebook


That is exactly the point.

VOlt remember that.

As they say in the good ole USA.

Your wife is still full of crap my friend.

Just continue to reach for that level of detachment.

ANd when you do confront I always like to say this " A picture is worth a thousand words, but your pics of the two of you are worth only two words. Good Bye!"

Do not let their immature antics stop you from being a good man and father Volt!

And dont forget to send her Mom a pic of her daughters classy moves while she was supposed to be visiting her.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> At least you know exactly how far it's gone now. No nagging doubt that you could be wrong.


I wasn't sure before but I always knew that if they went off for this weekend together that this would be it. Why else go off for a weekend with someone? 

Any doubts I might have had about him being a complete narcissist have evaporated too. He will turn on her and it will be nasty. It could come very soon if he has now "conquered" her and gets bored of her. He has just posted another photo of himself that she clearly took - he's standing over the photographer naked, holding something over his crotch, but is looking down at the photographer (her) with such a cold, nasty, almost cruel look on his face. No smile, just a look almost of contempt. He's going to chew her up and spit her out.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Bullwinkle said:


> Damn, DYRC, great post.


Yes - great post. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> That is exactly the point.
> 
> VOlt remember that.
> 
> ...


I'm reaching hard!! I know it sounds a bit new age and stuff, but I'm doing a lot of meditation and mindfulness exercises and they really help. 

I also realised that as well as the anger that I need to get over I also need to get over the tendency for Oneitis. I just shouldn't think that way.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Shy people don't have nude pictures of themselves on Facebook


Well, what you can actually see of her is nothing you wouldn't see on a beach (or at a ****tail party for that matter). But that's not the point - it is still an intimate photo, albeit with faces obscured. 

Also, I don't think that it is "her". I think that she is in a complete bubble and will do anything to try to please her narcissistic boyfriend - he's the one driving this. But that's not the point either - it is her choice. 

So whilst I think I'm right and that she is basically shy about sex (I think she has made him wait for a long time) your broader point is right too - and is more important. Plus, I am under no illusions that she is doing things for him that she never did for me.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Voltaire said:


> Anyway, the bottom line is that her appalling behaviour just seems to make it easier and easier to turn my back and walk away. It feels like I'm finally really ready to do that.


I knew it wouldn't be that easy. I've been feeling angry all day - wanting to hit out at the SOBOM. That's dumb because he's not the one I should be angry with and because being angry with a narcissist (who only thrives on the negative attention) is particularly dumb. And I'm angry at myself for being sucked back into the cycle of anger and crazy thoughts. 

The problem is that I can't just confront her because I want to bide my time and do so when it will have maximum impact and be hardest to deny. 

I need to just cool down - both internally and externally - and tell myself that she really isn't worth it.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Natural emotions - good to self-regulate.

J. Springer is booked with people who want to take it out on posOM - while their cheating wife/husband sits right there.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Well, the wife came clean about the POSOM and their dirty weekend together. Thinks it's OK because we're getting a divorce. Thinks she "deserves happiness" no matter what the cost to me or the kids. Still deep in the fog, says our marriage was horrible for her and that the breakup had nothing to do with other people (even though she admits to having been on secret dates and set up secret email accounts 6 months ago). Denies that POSOM was waiting in the wings even though he miraculously appeared a few days after she said she wanted a divorce.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Voltaire said:


> Well, the wife came clean about the POSOM and their dirty weekend together. Thinks it's OK because we're getting a divorce. Thinks she "deserves happiness" no matter what the cost to me or the kids. Still deep in the fog, says our marriage was horrible for her and that the breakup had nothing to do with other people (even though she admits to having been on secret dates and set up secret email accounts 6 months ago). Denies that POSOM was waiting in the wings even though he miraculously appeared a few days after she said she wanted a divorce.


Are you able to laugh at this level of self-delusion?


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Are you able to laugh at this level of self-delusion?


The honest answer is........sometimes. Just like sometimes I feel calm and detached and other times I get angry and feel the pain.

I will certainly be laughing when the self-obsessed narcissist dumps her - as he so obviously will. 

She doesn't know that I know that he has put pictures of them in bed together on the internet (maybe she doesn't even know!!). Unless of course she is reading this. And he has put up a naked picture of himself (covering his not-so-manly bits but nothing else) as his main picture on FB. A picture obviously taken by my wife.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

Yeah that sounds like it's going to last

I know it's hard to see them rewriting history and keeping quiet about it. But that really is the best thing. Nothing you can say at this point will change her mind. She's a big girl and reality will bite her in the ass eventually. Let her do whatever it takes to make herself feel better for now. It won't last


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Voltaire said:


> The honest answer is........sometimes. Just like sometimes I feel calm and detached and other times I get angry and feel the pain.
> 
> I will certainly be laughing when the self-obsessed narcissist dumps her - as he so obviously will.
> 
> She doesn't know that I know that he has put pictures of them in bed together on the internet (maybe she doesn't even know!!). Unless of course she is reading this. And he has put up a naked picture of himself (covering his not-so-manly bits but nothing else) as his main picture on FB. A picture obviously taken by my wife.


It's easy for me to laugh at this juvenile idiocy.

I'm glad you're getting there.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Dollystanford said:


> Yeah that sounds like it's going to last
> 
> I know it's hard to see them rewriting history and keeping quiet about it. But that really is the best thing. Nothing you can say at this point will change her mind. She's a big girl and reality will bite her in the ass eventually. Let her do whatever it takes to make herself feel better for now. It won't last


Absolutely. Somehow its easier to deal with now it is all out in the open. Of course there is always the rollercoaster but when I went to bed last night I felt quite peaceful for the first time in as long as I could remember. Suddenly there was nothing to fight - no struggle to prove that she has been lying to me (both for my own sake and for the sake of my legal case). I had also felt quite humiliated each time she asked me to look after the kids so she could go be with OM (pathetic, I know, but it's the male pride thing!) and it doesn't feel nearly so bad now it's out in the open. Plus she now has to look at her kids and say that she is going to see OM rather than being with them. 

I have to admit that the damn internet photos of them together still get to me a bit. But i'll get over that.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Conrad said:


> It's easy for me to laugh at this juvenile idiocy.
> 
> I'm glad you're getting there.


Thanks, Conrad.

Being able to have a direct conversation about all of this certainly highlights how stupid and completely selfish her fog-bound perspective is.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Volt
Can I make a suggestion. 

Show your wife the pictures. 

And say this

"I hope when our children see these photos someday and they ask you about them you come up with better lies than you told me. I have known about this relationship for sometime. 

You are dead to me. Please act accordingly"

Then walk away. 

Take back control. 

Then ignore her. Let her conscious be her worst enemy. 

That is how you treat a cheater and the lousy mother of your children.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

That anger at the om is totally natural. I wanted to hit the last OW with my car while I would see her out riding her bike, I swear I came so close to it... Only thing that stoped me was she wasn’t worth me spending my life in jail. Now I feel only pity for her and she probably feels same for me. This new OW, I could care less about. Finally have it in my head that although she’s a miserable piece of sh^*t for willing to have an A with a married man, she is messed up in her own way and I could care less about her. This one only knew me from what he said. MSTBXH is the one that should have cared about my feelings and how much he was hurting me, not this stranger.

Saying that; pictures and texts messages that you get in your head are awful!! Even though I could see all the lies he wrote her I could also read about all the wonderful sex.. Yippy, just what I needed to read. Also got to read about how he liked taking her stockings off her and shaving her legs and taking showers with her and helping her dress in the morning. This was all while he was supposed to have been at work 6am.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> Volt
> Can I make a suggestion.
> 
> Show your wife the pictures.
> ...


I'm saving that revelation for when it will have maximum impact. 

I'm secretly hoping that POSOM hasn't actually told her that he has uploaded these photos and it comes as a complete shock to her. Unlikely, but would be classic.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> I'm saving that revelation for when it will have maximum impact.
> 
> I'm secretly hoping that POSOM hasn't actually told her that he has uploaded these photos and it comes as a complete shock to her. Unlikely, but would be classic.


No. Not unlikely. People affair down.

She probably has no clue the pics are on the web.

Cheaters act like sixteen year old idiots. We see it all the time.

Time it right but do not wait too long.

Maybe her Mom should give her the pics? And then thank her daughter for the visit that never happened......


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

happyman64 said:


> No. Not unlikely. People affair down.
> 
> She probably has no clue the pics are on the web.
> 
> ...


That's where I'd send them.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Confronted her about photos. Claimed she had no knowledge they were on the internet. Told her that clearly her and SOBOM were trying to rub my nose in their affair. She strongly denied it, saying that it was nothing to do with me. I asked her to take the pictures down. She said she had no control over what he did. Told her it was reckless of her to allow someone to take compromising photos of her without any control over what happened to them. (Just like a reckless 16 year old, as HM64 said).

Net result - pictures taken down within the hour. I bet narcissistic SOBOM hated having to take down his prized trophy pictures of my wife. I imagine she consulted her lawyer who told her to remove all evidence of her adultery immediately. 

She's angry as hell at me, but that's standard practice for a cheating wife who has been busted I understand. But she doesn't regard it as cheating since we are divorcing.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

SOBOM - I like that.

V, stop being the thorn on the side of Team Fantasy. They don't like it when you try and tarnish their picturesque love affair.

Makes me sick.

She's mad at herself and trying to dump her anger and self caused drama on you. Don't let her. She's bringing this upon herself.

Good man!

Did you save copies of the pictures?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

ReGroup said:


> V, stop being the thorn on the side of Team Fantasy. They don't like it when you try and tarnish their picturesque love affair.


I know, but I draw the line when it is being thrust in my face on the internet. Otherwise I am doing nothing to stand in their way. They'll crash and burn soon enough. 

But I bet that Team Narcissus absolutely hated having to take down his trophy pictures and hated his adoring gf questioning his actions - apparently narcissists regard any questions about their behaviour as a huge betrayal. My heart bleeds. 



ReGroup said:


> She's mad at herself and trying to dump her anger and self caused drama on you. Don't let her. She's bringing this upon herself.


Oh she owns the anger whether she admits it to herself or not. I am delighted that the pictures are down and don't care that she is currently stewing. Personally I would dump anyone who put compromising photos of me on the internet without my permission, but love is blind - for a while. 




ReGroup said:


> Did you save copies of the pictures?


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Volt

Having photos like that (proof of infidelity) in the UK means you can divorce quicker does it not???

Hm64


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> Volt
> 
> Having photos like that (proof of infidelity) in the UK means you can divorce quicker does it not???
> 
> Hm64


You can divorce quite quickly in England (Scotland has a separate legal system) if you can either prove adultery or unreasonable behaviour. What most people do to achieve a civilised "agreed" divorce is to agree some fairly mild wording for unreasonable behaviour. If you don't do this then you have to go through a lengthy period of separation, just as in other jurisdictions. 

In the UK the reasons for divorce are completely separate from the financial outcome. You can behave as badly as you like and you won't be punished for it in the financial settlement. Nor does it matter who divorces whom. Crazy, but that's how it works here.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> You can divorce quite quickly in England (Scotland has a separate legal system) if you can either prove adultery or unreasonable behaviour. What most people do to achieve a civilised "agreed" divorce is to agree some fairly mild wording for unreasonable behaviour. If you don't do this then you have to go through a lengthy period of separation, just as in other jurisdictions.
> 
> In the UK the reasons for divorce are completely separate from the financial outcome. You can behave as badly as you like and you won't be punished for it in the financial settlement. Nor does it matter who divorces whom. Crazy, but that's how it works here.


I do hope that you can Divorce her quickly.

I know it is not what you wanted but when a wayward spouse acts as immature as your wife has you are better off leaving her behind.

That way when the OM dumps her she will truly comprehend how it feels to be alone.

I feel your pain Volt. 

All you can do is take it one day at a time.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> I do hope that you can Divorce her quickly.
> 
> I know it is not what you wanted but when a wayward spouse acts as immature as your wife has you are better off leaving her behind.
> 
> ...


Thanks, HM. 

The irony is that she is divorcing me. 

She is certainly behaving immaturely and without any thought for whether she is hurting others. She is pursuing her "happiness" and that is all that matters. My question is whether that is really who she is now or whether, if she ever comes out of the fog, she will be a more caring compassionate person. I just don't know, and i would like to. I might just be able to reconcile with someone who showed real remorse and really understood how hurtful and selfish her actions have been. I could never reconcile with someone who didn't get that.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Voltaire said:


> Thanks, HM.
> 
> The irony is that she is divorcing me.
> 
> She is certainly behaving immaturely and without any thought for whether she is hurting others. She is pursuing her "happiness" and that is all that matters. My question is whether that is really who she is now or whether, if she ever comes out of the fog, she will be a more caring compassionate person. I just don't know, and i would like to. I might just be able to reconcile with someone who showed real remorse and really understood how hurtful and selfish her actions have been. I could never reconcile with someone who didn't get that.


Send the pictures to her parents.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Hi everyone. It’s been a while, so I just thought I would give you all a quick update.

Not much new to report on the domestic front. Although the A with the POSOM is in theory out in the open now she continues to hide behind half truths: “I’m just going for lunch [with him]”, “I’m just going to a show [with him]”, “I’m spending time with friends [i.e. him]”, “I’m taking some time for myself [to be with him]”. It’s exhausting living with it – and the kids can see right through it too. She has asked if I can have the kids over a couple of weekends so that she can go off and have a nice time (presumably with POSOM). Fine. I’ll have a great time with the kids whilst she chooses to be elsewhere.

I had a bit of a breakthrough last night after a long discussion with her. I suddenly realised that the reason that I have been angry for months is that I just want some acknowledgement that I ever meant something to her, that the marriage once meant something to her. Everything she has done for the last six months (from well before D-Day) just screams “You don’t mean anything to me and you never did”. She even told me that she never loved me – I just filled enough boxes on the “potential husband material” form. 

Now that I have realised that I have been engaging in this most toxic form of approval seeking I can do something about it. In fact, I already have, without even trying. As soon as I had that moment of realisation I felt much less angry and much more peaceful. Her actions and opinions seemed much less important – including A with POSOM which seemed specifically designed to upset me, from rubbing my nose in pictures of them together to choosing an AP who looks like such a complete a-hole it isn’t true (“hey, look, I chose THIS over you”). Fine. You own it now and I am not going to give you the power to hurt me anymore. Although I feel so much more peaceful I also feel incredibly sad today. However I welcome the tears as I take this to be part of the mourning process and a sign that I have taken another big step in letting go.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I had a similar moment. I had already accepted it was over and started moving on several times beforehand. When I had simular realisation of my own actions as you it felt so different. When I chose to accept that it was real for me and that I had no control over whether it was or not to her.

Sad but peaceful. Yes indeed.

Make sure you log time spent away etc. Anything you may need to help regarding time with the kids later.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Volt

That self realization can be powerful.

But it hurts.

Been there and felt that.

But you will be fine. The key is to detach from her. Keep working at it.

You will get to a point that you realize the person inhabiting her body is not your wife. And has not been for a while.

The key is to detach from her before the OM dumps her. It will happen.

He just needs to user her some more. 

Focus on you. Focus on your kids. You and the kids are all that matters at this time.

HM64


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> Volt
> 
> That self realization can be powerful.
> 
> ...


Thanks.

Yes it hurts, but it feels like a productive hurt if that makes sense - part of moving on. Much better than the unrelenting pain I've been feeling otherwise.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Yes it hurts, but it feels like a productive hurt if that makes sense - part of moving on. Much better than the unrelenting pain I've been feeling otherwise.


I do remember feeling the same way.

No pain means no gain.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> I do remember feeling the same way.
> 
> No pain means no gain.


I had another huge wave of sadness this evening. Again, though, it felt constructive. It felt a bit like saying goodbye. And afterwards I felt very calm. Everything seemed to be so much more in perspective. I can view my wife more sympathetically (with more understanding of her bad behaviour, even if I could never condone it and still see it as hurtful). I can even admit that OM might actually be a human being somewhere underneath all the narcissism and that there might be some genuine reasons why my wife enjoys spending time with him. 

OTOH my first instinct was to want my wife to see these changes in my attitude. So still some way to go in detaching from her. But self realisation is a big part of the battle. And I feel myself slowly turning away from her and from the past and towards the future with my kids.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Wanting to share with her isn't a problem so long as you pick up on it like that. Sounds like its going well.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> Wanting to share with her isn't a problem so long as you pick up on it like that. Sounds like its going well.


It was more like feeling a need to share with her...and my focus was on what her reaction would be, not on me. Those are my unhealthy old ways and I need to pull myself up hard when I catch myself doing it.

I came across a great quote, that I am sure others have seen before - that you fall in love with a personality but you have to live with a character. It's a helpful thought for me as I try to detach. I may be in love with my wife's personality but her fundamental character is that of someone prepared to do the awful things she has done. 

It's a good thing to bear in mind for those trying to reconcile too (which I admit I still fantasise about but I now know that it is little more than a fantasy). If you're going to reconcile then simply making peace with your spouse's personality is not enough. That's rug sweeping. If they have been immoral or hurtful then you need to ensure that their character is reformed as well.


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## catcalls (Oct 31, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> It was more like feeling a need to share with her...and my focus was on what her reaction would be, not on me. Those are my unhealthy old ways and I need to pull myself up hard when I catch myself doing it.
> 
> I came across a great quote, that I am sure others have seen before - that you fall in love with a personality but you have to live with a character. It's a helpful thought for me as I try to detach. I may be in love with my wife's personality but her fundamental character is that of someone prepared to do the awful things she has done.
> 
> It's a good thing to bear in mind for those trying to reconcile too (which I admit I still fantasise about but I now know that it is little more than a fantasy). If you're going to reconcile then simply making peace with your spouse's personality is not enough. That's rug sweeping. If they have been immoral or hurtful then you need to ensure that their character is reformed as well.


hi V

sorry to see that she is still deep in the fog. meanwhile you seem to have made a lot of progress. while it is painful now, you will be in a better place soon and so will your children. she probably feeds off the drama and the illicitness and is thinking like a lovestruck teenager. 

have you filed for divorce already?


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> It's a good thing to bear in mind for those trying to reconcile too (which I admit I still fantasise about but I now know that it is little more than a fantasy). If you're going to reconcile then simply making peace with your spouse's personality is not enough. That's rug sweeping. If they have been immoral or hurtful then you need to ensure that their character is reformed as well.


Very good insight on your part, I wish I would have understood that all the times in the past when I allowed my stbxh to come back after an A. I truly believed we could make our marriage work. Instead all I received was year upon year of heart break before finally having it shoved in my face that not only was he not going to change his immoral and hurtful ways but he no longer wanted to either and having to give up on him and the marriage.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

catcalls said:


> hi V
> 
> sorry to see that she is still deep in the fog. meanwhile you seem to have made a lot of progress.


thanks. In my head I know it is progress, but it doesn't feel that way. I guess when you are trying to find your way out of a completely dark room you don't realise that you are getting nearer the door - you only notice your progress once you have made it out into the light.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

doureallycare2 said:


> Very good insight on your part, I wish I would have understood that all the times in the past when I allowed my stbxh to come back after an A. I truly believed we could make our marriage work.


Thanks. But I am just talking theory - it's so much harder in practice (as you have experienced). 

As I said above, I still have this crazy fantasy of my wife coming back, me forgiving her and us living happily ever after. But after this realisation that really does look like pure fantasy. I can't change her fundamental values - and I don;t think that she will.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Very painful and insightful thread. Good of you to share.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> Very painful and insightful thread. Good of you to share.


Thanks, but it's really the other way around. Good of others to listen and to be so generous with their patient advice.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

So, the POSOM has put back up one of the pictures that he took on the dirty weekend with my wife. The ultimate in waving his **** in my face. 

Not going to give them the satisfaction of a reaction. Or at least I am going to try not to


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I would download the pics and send them to your wife's family labelled, here are the pics of my wife and the boyfriend she's leaving the marriage to cheat with,


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> I would download the pics and send them to your wife's family labelled, here are the pics of my wife and the boyfriend she's leaving the marriage to cheat with,


That's a good idea imo.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

tom67 said:


> That's a good idea imo.


Not in the middle of a legal process. It would be used to portray me as vindictive and unreasonable. The law doesn't care if you behave immorally and cause great pain and suffering but if you try to hit back it will punish you. 

Her family wouldn't care much anyway.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Hmm. He has it out in the public anyway what is the difference?


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

tom67 said:


> Hmm. He has it out in the public anyway what is the difference?


Been strongly advised not to


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

So she sends me a text asking if I'll look after the kids whilst she goes to hospital some time this week. Of course I immediately call to see what is wrong, what I can do to help, etc. Turns out its nothing major, but she says that she is genuinely surprised that I cared - said that she thought that I just wouldn't give a **** at all.

A nice little moment of tenderness. But it has lead to hours of pain. I feel dragged right back into the middle of it all. I let my guard down and let her in and now I feel that stabbing pain right at my core. Started having dumb fantasies about how this one little bit of real emotional contact might be the start of some sort of reconciliation - before I told myself not to be so stupid. 

I keep telling myself that I am nearly over her, but clearly I am nowhere near. How long is this going to go on?


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

As I had to be told many many times. As long as you let it.

It sounds too simple to be true but it really is. Instead of looking to get over her, look to live. 

I have started thinking when we cling onto that fantasy for dear life, even once its only by our fingertips, what we are doing is punishing ourselves.

Whether that is because of mistakes we made, because we weren't 'good enough' or simply to be martyrs, that's what I think we are doing.


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> So she sends me a text asking if I'll look after the kids whilst she goes to hospital some time this week. Of course I immediately call to see what is wrong, what I can do to help, etc. Turns out its nothing major, but she says that she is genuinely surprised that I cared - said that she thought that I just wouldn't give a **** at all.
> 
> A nice little moment of tenderness. But it has lead to hours of pain. I feel dragged right back into the middle of it all. I let my guard down and let her in and now I feel that stabbing pain right at my core. Started having dumb fantasies about how this one little bit of real emotional contact might be the start of some sort of reconciliation - before I told myself not to be so stupid.
> 
> I keep telling myself that I am nearly over her, but clearly I am nowhere near. How long is this going to go on?


Im sorry but what bull%*&^,

She knew you would care! Take my word for it, she was not surprised! That was not tender of her to say that to you, she was trying to get to you and it sounds like she did.....


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

doureallycare2 said:


> Im sorry but what bull%*&^,
> 
> She knew you would care! Take my word for it, she was not surprised! That was not tender of her to say that to you, she was trying to get to you and it sounds like she did.....


Oh she certainly did get to me - far more than I thought she would be able to!!

I think she was upset yesterday because I moved a wedding photo that she tossed aside a couple of months ago. I didn;t like seeing it casually discarded like that, so I took it (it was on my side of our bed that she now sleeps in alone).

If what you say is true (and I'm sure it is) then maybe this is payback - or at least her checking that I don't completely despise her, despite her awful treatment. Not sure what to do now.


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

So you took the wedding pic and she's surprised you care she’s going into the hospital... ???.. Case in point... what you do now... what you should be doing, still take the children like you said you would and that’s it! You do not have to be "considerate" show her you care (she knows) or anything else. You really need to just do what KC said and concentrate on you and your boys. You will get over her much faster and healing will begin.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> Oh she certainly did get to me - far more than I thought she would be able to!!
> 
> I think she was upset yesterday because I moved a wedding photo that she tossed aside a couple of months ago. I didn;t like seeing it casually discarded like that, so I took it (it was on my side of our bed that she now sleeps in alone).
> 
> If what you say is true (and I'm sure it is) then maybe this is payback - or at least her checking that I don't completely despise her, despite her awful treatment. Not sure what to do now.


Volt

As Conrad would say your wife is testing you....

And KC is right. It ends when you stop it.

Simple as that. But hard to practice at first.

Keep moving ahead. And no matter what keep yur children a priority.

If it was me I would have thrown her out of the bedroom.

But that is just me.

Hm64


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

doureallycare2 said:


> So you took the wedding pic and she's surprised you care she’s going into the hospital... ???.. Case in point... what you do now... what you should be doing, still take the children like you said you would and that’s it! You do not have to be "considerate" show her you care (she knows) or anything else. You really need to just do what KC said and concentrate on you and your boys. You will get over her much faster and healing will begin.


I rather meant what I do now with regard to her - how do I treat her. But I guess nothing changes. I think HM was right - it was a test. Not quite sure what she want's though, or what she is testing me for. Does she really think that I am still Plan B, after I have been so angry with her for so long? Or does she just want to check that I don't think that she is just a completely worthless human being after her appalling behaviour?


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Could be either. Could be both. It really doesn't matter.

It's not so long ago I was agonising over the meaning behind every little thing. I was chaining myself then. You are now.

As Conrad said to me, if she wanted you and to try again, you wouldnt have to guess.

Let her go, you deserve better than someone that doesnt care


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> Could be either. Could be both. It really doesn't matter.
> 
> It's not so long ago I was agonising over the meaning behind every little thing. I was chaining myself then. You are now.
> 
> ...


OK

Glad I came here before the next time I saw her (which will be this evening)! It's given me a completely different perspective. If she mentions my "caring" I'll just tell her that I care about her medical issues because I am a decent human being, that we decent human beings are actually a pretty rare and valuable breed and that she had one but decided to give him up.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> OK
> 
> Glad I came here before the next time I saw her (which will be this evening)! It's given me a completely different perspective. If she mentions my "caring" I'll just tell her that I care about her medical issues because I am a decent human being, that we decent human beings are actually a pretty rare and valuable breed and that she had one but decided to give him up.


No Volt.

She did not give you up.

*She fired you! *


She just did not tell you because it was easier to lie to you and cheat on you.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> No Volt.
> 
> She did not give you up.
> 
> *She fired you! *


Ouch!! Harsh, but as usual absolutely correct.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

And I am not trying to be harsh. I just want to show you the difference.

So you can see the difference and understand it.

And eventually process it.

You are doing better. Keep moving forward Volt.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> And I am not trying to be harsh. I just want to show you the difference.


I know, man.

Nothing but friends here -friends who will tell you what you need to hear, whether it is nice to hear or not.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

It's been over 3 months since D-Day, so time for a reassessment. And it really doesn't look good - I'm just not moving on in the way that I should be.

First a quick update on the facts. Still living under the same roof. Divorce still going ahead at full speed (she's divorcing me). Her A is still going strong and is completely blatant and "in your face" - on "affair days" she just disappears first thing in the morning and comes back in the evening with no explanations. In terms of exposure, etc. I get the impression that they are quite open about their relationship and that she has been adopted by his circle of friends. For her, that is her new support network as she goes through the D - so all the more reason to cling to it. 

So, where am I? Not in a good place. I'm slowly (all too slowly) detaching from her emotionally, but I'm still living in the past. I think on one level I just don't want to have to accept that I'm getting divorced and the life I have known for so long is over. I'm afraid of the future - not so much emotionally but in practical terms. For one thing I live in a very very expensive city and the divorce will kill me financially and that is a huge worry. I can't make any plans because the whole D thing is up in the air. 

Mentally I'm just focusing on all the wrong things. I'm living in the past. I no longer think about her A 24/7 as I used to, but when they are together I can't get it out of my head - it's just so blatant (but she thinks that she is doing nothing wrong and it is me who has the problem - in a way she's right). I still think about R, even though I know that it is incredibly unlikely. All that mental energy needs to be focused on the future, on how I'm going to rebuild my life without her. At least I can say with some pride that I am very much there for my kids as we go through this difficult situation together. They don't see any of this. 

I did finally say to her some of the things that I needed to say - about our marriage, about her affairs, about the future. I never got the opportunity to say any of these things before because she just told me that it was over and then ran away. She wouldn't have any further discussions - she had achieved closure (or thought she had) and she didn't give a damn about where I was emotionally or what I had to go through. She was a complete coward. She still hasn't done me the courtesy of giving me any answers at all beyond "I was unhappy and I did everything I could" (which she didn't).

I can see a very bright, happy future for me and my kids. But I'm just not doing anything to move forward towards that future. Partly that is because the whole divorce process has to work its way through before I can take any practical steps. But that is just a convenient excuse. Mentally, I need to be focusing on that future but my head is too full of regrets, "what if's" and thoughts about OM and the affair. I have now realised that her cowardice in just running away emotionally has not done me any favours in terms of getting over this and putting the issues to bed. But those are the cards I have been dealt and I must deal with the situation as it is.

So, guys, break out the 2x4s and tell me how to leave the past behind and focus on the future. It's time I did that but I don't know how to let go of the past and the thoughts about the affair. I'm making some progress - I'm less angry, I'm a bit more detached from her emotionally, my thoughts are less obsessive and I am at least more aware of where I am and what I need to do even if I find it very hard to do it.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

I'm witholding the 2x4 purely as I recall how hard in house was for me. I think you have done ok Thu. It's hard to detach when they are there all the time.

That said you do need to do better and move on. The way she has become quite overt is disrespectful to you and the children.

Accept her for the person she is showing you. God its so much easier to say than do but at least you already know its what's needed.

I wish you could separate physically too. It got so much easier for me when I had my own space away from stbx. In house sucks.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

K.C. said:


> I'm witholding the 2x4 purely as I recall how hard in house was for me. I think you have done ok Thu. It's hard to detach when they are there all the time.


In a way being in the same house is easy - it's what I've done for most of my adult life so its almost a nice easy habit (with a few changes). But I guess that's what I need to detach from. 



K.C. said:


> That said you do need to do better and move on. The way she has become quite overt is disrespectful to you and the children.
> 
> Accept her for the person she is showing you.


As I say above, the thing is that she doesn't think that she is doing anything wrong. She thinks its perfectly acceptable for a married woman to be in a relationship with someone else since she said that she wants a divorce. She thinks it's perfectly OK for her to "take some time for herself" even at the expense of much of the time she could spend with her kids. She just doesn't see that she is doing anything wrong at all. 

Is that the fog or is that the person she has become? I just don't know. 





K.C. said:


> God its so much easier to say than do but at least you already know its what's needed.


Acknowledging that is a good first step, which is partly why I wrote about it here (also because I wanted ideas and suspect that I need a bit of tough love). But knowing what you have to do and doing it are two very different things. If they weren't, everyone here could just flick a switch in their heads and detach. 

Supporting the kids is my #1 priority and they get the bulk of my mental and emotional energy. Other stuff comes behind that, but I need to get my head around it.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

No 2x4's. All of this is part of the process. Parts of us do not want to let go. I struggle mightily at times as well.

We all know that cheaters are selfish - its why your wife is able to carry out her affair without any regards to you and the kids.

She is masking the pain with that idiot - while you are embracing it and learning about yourself...

You tell me who'll come out of this with less scars.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Volt

You are doing good. But you realize you can do better.

Your WW is not only a coward but she is selfish.

It never ceases to amaze me how a woman can leave a good man behind but her children as well to an extent.

You need to embrace this D.

You have no choice. You can look at how this D will leave you and the kids financially. And plan from there.

Yes it will suck but you ave to make those plans.

And you can still go dark on your wife except when it pertains to the kids.

Cut her out of your heart and head. She is no longer your wife. You remember the old wife but the person she is now is a stranger. Treat her like a stranger. 

"Let Her Go!"

It takes time Volt but do not wait until you are divorced, the house is sold and you are on the curb with your boxes next to you.

You deserve better. So start looking for it.

One BS got blindsided by his wife. In 6 months he bought a new home, got custody of his kids, met a beautiful rich widow (he has his own money) and is leaving his WW in the dust.

You can do it Volt. Without any 2x4's from us.

HM64


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## doureallycare2 (Dec 10, 2012)

Wow, I agree with KC.. how hard it is to be in the same house. I only did it for a couple of months but he didnt know that I knew about the affair and I knew I was taking steps that I needed to move forward without him. you however are still living in limbo and how’s that working for you?

Happy man: why does it amaze you that woman will do this.. Men have done it to woman for years. Cruelty and selfishness is not based on your sex. I have known wonderful giving caring men that have more parenting skills then the wife any day and then vice a versa. Then you add an affair.... it’s amazing who deep down will show that selfishness.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

ReGroup said:


> We all know that cheaters are selfish - its why your wife is able to carry out her affair without any regards to you and the kids.
> 
> She is masking the pain with that idiot - while you are embracing it and learning about yourself...
> 
> ...


RG this is perfect. I sooooooo want to forward this to my STBXW because it is so true. But I don't want her to know that I'm on TAM or read my thread so I will resist the temptation.

Of course, the fact that I am thinking about her at all is not good. I guess in some ways I just want to see her punished for what she has done and how selfish she has been. Just quietly accepting what she has done, putting it to one side and moving forward is the wise thing to do but it feels like such a cop-out, completely letting her off the hook. It kind or reminds me of Dylan Thomas's poem "Do not go gentle into that Good Night". It's one of his finest, and is about not just quietly accepting death but raging against it. That's how I feel about divorce, but the rage is pointless and only hurts me. I do not want to "go gentle into that good night" but I'm going to have to do it.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> It takes time Volt but do not wait until you are divorced, the house is sold and you are on the curb with your boxes next to you.


This is the scenario I fear most, and the direction I am worried that I am headed in. I need to focus on the future.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

doureallycare2 said:


> Wow, I agree with KC.. hbow hard it is to be in the same house. I only did it for a couple of months but he didnt know that I knew about the affair and I knew I was taking steps that I needed to mmove forward without him. you however are still living in limbo and hows that working for you?


It doesn't feel too bad but it's toxic. But that's the reality I'm living with - it's not financially viable for either of us to move out ATM and even if it were whoever moved out would give up legal rights. So this is my reality for the time being and I have to live with it.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Do you ever wish you had started posting on the CWI thread from the beginning?


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> Do you ever wish you had started posting on the CWI thread from the beginning?



Interesting question. I did actually start a thread there a while ago but it was specifically about exposure. But when I started this thread I thought I was just dealing with a WAW. I knew that she had had a long distance EA with someone in her home country but I also knew that that was over. What I didn't know at that time (about 2 weeks after the D bomb was dropped) was that there was another guy waiting in the wings much closer to home and that she was just starting a relationship with him. 

Do you think the folks over on CWI would help? Do you think that they would regard this as full-on infidelity if the A started after she said she wanted a divorce (she certainly doesn't) and do you think their advice would be relevant in this situation?


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

I am hoping you are taking time for yourself Voltaire. 

You say on 'affair' days, your wife leaves in the morning and comes back in the evening and doesn't say a word to you about what she did.

You should be taking 'Voltaire' days once a week. Where you leave for the day and don't come back until the evening. You can be a great dad the rest of the week. You need time for yourself. It will be good for your STBXW to see that you are moving on.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

Voltaire said:


> Interesting question. I did actually start a thread there a while ago but it was specifically about exposure. But when I started this thread I thought I was just dealing with a WAW. I knew that she had had a long distance EA with someone in her home country but I also knew that that was over. What I didn't know at that time (about 2 weeks after the D bomb was dropped) was that there was another guy waiting in the wings much closer to home and that she was just starting a relationship with him.
> 
> Do you think the folks over on CWI would help? Do you think that they would regard this as full-on infidelity if the A started after she said she wanted a divorce (she certainly doesn't) and *do you think their advice would be relevant in this situation?*


yes


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

SadSamIAm said:


> You should be taking 'Voltaire' days once a week. Where you leave for the day and don't come back until the evening. You can be a great dad the rest of the week. You need time for yourself. It will be good for your STBXW to see that you are moving on.


My kids don't like it when their mother goes off - they are old enough and wise enough to know what she is up to even though she says nothing and they feel hurt by her choice to go be with someone else rather than them. They need someone and I'm there for them. They are my main priority and I'm not going to go out for long stretches right now when they need me. 

I do go out a bit during the week. I also meditate and think a lot, but much of this I do at home (where STBXW isn't much of a presence, so for much of the time its just me and the kids).


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

aug said:


> yes


I deleted the previous message I posted in response to this as it sounded a bit negative and dismissive.

Let me ask a differnt question instead - do you think it would be worthwhile starting a new thread over there?


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Voltaire said:


> I deleted the previous message I posted in response to this as it sounded a bit negative and dismissive.
> 
> Let me ask a differnt question instead - do you think it would be worthwhile starting a new thread over there?


Done it. Post on CWI here. Thanks for the suggestion.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Voltaire said:


> My kids don't like it when their mother goes off - they are old enough and wise enough to know what she is up to even though she says nothing and they feel hurt by her choice to go be with someone else rather than them. They need someone and I'm there for them. They are my main priority and I'm not going to go out for long stretches right now when they need me.
> 
> I do go out a bit during the week. I also meditate and think a lot, but much of this I do at home (where STBXW isn't much of a presence, so for much of the time its just me and the kids).


If you take some time for yourself, then it will force your wife to spend time with the kids. I am not talking about leaving for days on end. Maybe just a couple of hours to go to a gym and exercise. 

Tell your kids what you are doing. They won't mind you doing something for yourself. This is part of the 180 that you need to do to detach from the STBXW and to start working on yourself.


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