# Marital and in-law problems combined



## SayRathernot

Hello,

I have tried to post this online out of desperation, worded a couple of different ways, because I fear that I'm losing my mind.

Here is a summary. Recently my wife reunited with some extended family members after many years. I met them briefly premarriage, when my wife and I were living together. I recall being very uncomfortable around the in-laws, to the point where I dreaded going to their house. Then, mysteriously, we stopped going there, and my wife fell out of touch with them. 

Now they are back in her life, and my wife and I are married with a teenager. I posted in another group about their abusive language and crude behavior, which is a big part of the problem. But it's grown beyond that. Within the past year, my wife has grown increasingly hostile and contemptuous. She basically called me a cowardly failure who helps her so little she threatened to divorce me. Then in a recent fight she yelled "F you!" to me. We have never fought like this, and part of me thinks it is connected to her reunion with her in-laws.

On top of that, she has started to involve her family in everything she does, and we do. They have been staying over at our house, or she has been staying over at theirs. They text and call constantly and she plans things without asking me. They are extremely crude and dysfunctional in my mind, but to her they are great and she thinks I am the one with the problem. It is a real bind for me, because I don't even want to be in the same room with them. Partly I'm sure I am being jealous, but I also really think they have issues. And my wife bends over backwards to extend all kinds of courtesy and sensitivity to what they want but dismisses any discomfort I have at their obnoxious behavior.

That's just a start. Any help or questions that might get the discussion going would be greatly appreciated. 

FYI, I am reading a book called Hold on to your N.U.T.S (Non-nogtiable, Unalterable Terms), which has a lot of stuff I am nodding my head to as I read it, but I am not sure what others think of this book's advice. Also, I am very afraid of either descending into a pit of humiliation and nastiness the way my wife is treating me or of being alone and of divorcing and losing my child if I decide to leave. This is the lowest point in my marriage and maybe my life. I really need help.

Thank you for any help.


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## F-102

Hey, Big Bad Wolf, where are you!?!
Seriously, her F thinks that she can do better than you, and are trying to convince her of it. Could it be they have met a man who would be perfect (rich, more handsome, more successful) for her, but they have to get you out of the picture, first?


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## SayRathernot

F-102 said:


> Hey, Big Bad Wolf, where are you!?!
> Seriously, her F thinks that she can do better than you, and are trying to convince her of it. Could it be they have met a man who would be perfect (rich, more handsome, more successful) for her, but they have to get you out of the picture, first?


Ugh, not what I wanted to hear, but if that's the way these things go, then I suppose I am in trouble. I honestly never thought that after 20 years together, that my wife would treat me this way. But I guess I should know better. I must have screwed up pretty badly to end up this way, or else I was her second choice of some kind and she has wound up deciding she wants to trade up. I'm not sure if any other specific man is in the picture yet. 

Is it that obvious? I mean, are there other details that might make a difference in what I described, or is that pretty much it -- they want her to dump me? And maybe they wanted her to dump me back then and for some reason she disagreed with them, so the only way for her to stay with me was to leave them? Well, now they are back and my wife is constantly stressing how she is never going to let them out of her life again. Maybe that is more code for "hit the road."

This is nauseating. I had a child with this woman, and this is what is has come to. I guess at this point my problem is how to move forward. The standard advice, at least based on the N.U.T.S. book, is to develop or rebuild trusting relationships with men, don't compromise the things I find non-negotiable, cooperate without compromising my principles, etc., all in an effort to gain the respect of my wife and avoid being the little hurt boy. Well, that all assumes I want to keep fighting for this, and if neither she nor my family wants me, why am I wasting my time?


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## TeaLeaves4

SayRathernot said:


> Ugh, not what I wanted to hear, but if that's the way these things go, then I suppose I am in trouble. I honestly never thought that after 20 years together, that my wife would treat me this way. But I guess I should know better. I must have screwed up pretty badly to end up this way, or else I was her second choice of some kind and she has wound up deciding she wants to trade up. I'm not sure if any other specific man is in the picture yet.
> 
> Is it that obvious? I mean, are there other details that might make a difference in what I described, or is that pretty much it -- they want her to dump me? And maybe they wanted her to dump me back then and for some reason she disagreed with them, so the only way for her to stay with me was to leave them? Well, now they are back and my wife is constantly stressing how she is never going to let them out of her life again. Maybe that is more code for "hit the road."
> 
> This is nauseating. I had a child with this woman, and this is what is has come to. I guess at this point my problem is how to move forward. The standard advice, at least based on the N.U.T.S. book, is to develop or rebuild trusting relationships with men, don't compromise the things I find non-negotiable, cooperate without compromising my principles, etc., all in an effort to gain the respect of my wife and avoid being the little hurt boy. Well, that all assumes I want to keep fighting for this, and if neither she nor my family wants me, why am I wasting my time?


Please try not to jump to conclusions.

I think what is more likely is that your wife, in an effort to get close to her family again, is confiding things about your relationship to them that she should not be. I know I have made that mistake before. 

Long after the incidents I told her about, when I was no longer angry with my H, my mother still was!


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## SayRathernot

TeaLeaves4 said:


> Please try not to jump to conclusions.
> 
> I think what is more likely is that your wife, in an effort to get close to her family again, is confiding things about your relationship to them that she should not be. I know I have made that mistake before.
> 
> Long after the incidents I told her about, when I was no longer angry with my H, my mother still was!


Thanks. I also think the timing of the reunion is bad for me. I'm dealing with a phase in our marriage where all I hear from my wife is how much of a failure I am, and then she turns around and complains that I am insecure and oversensitive. Yet she feels free to criticize my family up and down the line. She is OK when we are with my family, but -- well never mind. I guess everyone always thinks their family is the less dysfunctional one... :scratchhead:

Clearly I made some big mistakes along the way -- losing touch with my friends, not cultivating independence-oriented skills such as cooking or driving or financial control, letting us grow apart, viewing too much online... material, shall we say, to make up for our dying love life, which has probably made things worse. Sometimes I feel that she loved me more than I loved her at the start, and I should have had the strength to let her go so she could be happier with someone else. At this point, I wouldn't say it's the other way around because we are both in a bad place, but she certainly holds the cards, and I am left wondering whether I am a fool for trying to improve things, or a fool for not trying to improve things. I feel angry and unstable a lot of the time, and I have trouble concentrating.

I feel so isolated and ruined and demoralized now, it is hard to be in the presence of this family without wondering how much bad stuff they've been told, and the extent to which my wife no longer has my back. I understand that I need to stand up for myself and not expect her to have to do it for me, but I think there's a sense in which I am simply being pushed to the margins of my wife's life lately that is getting me dejected, even depressed. I hate that feeling. It is so full of self-pity. But I don't know what to do. For yet another weekend --about the fourth or fifth in a row -- her family is staying over at our house. It's either they come here or she goes there -- at least if she goes there, she usually doesn't take me.

Also I am silently struggling in my career. Although things are generally OK on the surface, I often feel like a fraud who doesn't know enough. Meanwhile, my wife's family is kind of macho and sort of anti-snobs but in a bad way. In other words, everything becomes a sort of dig against formal education and knowledge and all about having balls and taking charge and sex jokes and how to put stuff over on people, some of it pretty shady sounding. I guess I feel like if this is the moral and ethical life that she is happy to be reunited with, then I don't really know her at all. And all the times my wife and I talked to our child about the importance of being honest and getting schooled make me wonder how does she reconcile the two? Are people that transparently elastic with their ethics when it comes to family? Then I feel guilty for judging and think maybe I am envious for not ever having had that close a family. And on and on. When it rains it pours.


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## F-102

There are websites about the "impostor syndrome", and how it affects work performance, or more specifically, how it affects how you think people see you, i.e., "it's only a matter of time before they find out!"
It's possible that this has spilled into your marriage, and the timing of the "reunion" is making you paranoid. I suggest a therapist. Good luck, bro!


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## SayRathernot

F-102 said:


> There are websites about the "impostor syndrome", and how it affects work performance, or more specifically, how it affects how you think people see you, i.e., "it's only a matter of time before they find out!"
> It's possible that this has spilled into your marriage, and the timing of the "reunion" is making you paranoid. I suggest a therapist. Good luck, bro!


Thank you for this. I'm afraid part of the impostor syndrome for me is that I fear I don't love my wife the way she deserves to be loved, so I deserve whatever humiliation I receive (I am picking up hints that she is the "man" of the family instead of me), and that I should just pull out of the marriage and let her find a man that is the real man she wants and loves her properly. So I am afraid that no amount of "smaller" fights will solve anything, because they are not the core problem. If it is deeper than that, then there is no hope. 

I will see about therapy. She has already refused couples counseling, and because we have a child, I would like to hold on until the child is over 18, but it is very, very hard seeing my wife with her reunited family because, if the impostor syndrome applies, they give her all the happiness I can't and it's only a matter of time before they turn on me for my imperfections.

Thank you once more for your advice.


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## turnera

I love that book and recommend it all the time (as well as the website it came from).

Your wife is having an 'affair' with her family. THEY make her feel good, YOU make her feel bad. Your job is to make her feel good again. Go to affaircare.com and read up about how to do that.

What exactly is wrong with her family?


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## SayRathernot

turnera said:


> I love that book and recommend it all the time (as well as the website it came from).
> 
> Your wife is having an 'affair' with her family. THEY make her feel good, YOU make her feel bad. Your job is to make her feel good again. Go to affaircare.com and read up about how to do that.
> 
> What exactly is wrong with her family?


Thanks -- sorry but which book did you mean, The Impostor Syndrome? (I also mentioned Hold On To Your N.U.T.S. earlier in the thread).

What's wrong with her family? Well, maybe nothing, maybe everything. Here's my take.

From what my wife says, nothing is wrong with them, ultimately. They love her and helped her through hard times in her life, and my wife is very guilty for having split from them for so long. So now she is very grateful that they "took her back" and that they have, so far, not ridden her hard about her absence. As I think mentioned before, I am still not sure why my wife stopped seeing them for so long. I always thought it had something to do with me, but my wife denies that, so OK, maybe it was something else. I also do think she defers to them in a way she has never done to me, which makes me feel like my many years of marriage and fathering must mean very little to her. I don't mean to expect to be some kind of macho man who has balls and rules the roost (though she seems to like that her male members of this family behave that way), but rather just common respect for me. I think I need to get over that, though, because apparently I have earned very little respect in her eyes so I don't know how to start earning it.

From my point of view, what is wrong with the family, for me, is that they are suffocatingly close with each other. They all live near each other, it seems like they communicate every few minutes via phone or text, every day. My wife says they are very sensitive and worry that if they offend her she'll split with them again, which is why my wife gets so angry with me for having any difficulty with being around them. However, I see them as sensitive in a curious way -- they don't seem to really care about changing their behavior if they hear that someone finds it offensive. They are just worried that if that person (me) complains enough, my wife will stop seeing them for me. I certainly would be relieved if my wife did that, but I have not demanded that of her. All I've said is that it may come to the point where I can't go see them with her. And my wife has told them something along the lines that I feel uncomfortable around them, because I can tell from things they say. But then they say things like "I just say things like that sometimes, cause I'm an idiot." So that sarcasm says two things to me: (1) we're not stopping this behavior, (2) you think you're better or smarter than us for being offended by it. 

So they are loud and crude and all their in-jokes are really in. They don't seem interested in including me. Not that I want to be, but that's different from being asked. Then, my wife has invited one of them over to our house the past two weekends, in both cases without asking me first. And her family member was just talking almost nonstop, also talking on phone to her family. Also there's this kind of enforced gratitude such as saying to kids "tell me you love me" or getting worked up over all these perceived slights like who pays for what or who says what in what tone, calling people pieces of crap for offending them, commenting on whether someone is "being a real man," and so on. I know people can be judgmental but this seems like the roughest judgment I've ever heard, and it appears to go on continually, and if it hasn't started about me yet, I think it is only a matter of time.

Where am I going with this? On the surface, it all seems great. Right? Who wouldn't want an honest, close-knit family who always cares about what you're doing and always tells you what they think? Who wants the other extreme (me), who's kind of a loner and has less contact with his family? 

Well, part of the problem is that I thought my wife would be more supportive of me in this kind of dispute. But I now see that she won't be. I also think, for independent reasons, she has grown to dislike me. Our fights and her impatience are all about how I should just take care of stuff without asking her. I am angry because for years she has tried to take control of everything, so there's a lot of stuff I don't know how to do. But now that she's decided she's had enough, it's my problem. My wife has also mentioned some of the unethical and possibly illegal things some of them have done (can't say more than that, and why my wife told me these things, I don't know) and she still sides with them over me. I can only see that getting worse should my wife and I not be able to resolve our differences. I do think part of this is my impostor syndrome. I don't think I'm good enough, so I fear that it is only a matter of time before my wife's family sees it, and my wife's criticism of me confirms that she's already "found out." Also, I feel sexually and romantically inadequate, partly because who feels sexy when their spouse says "F you!" to them and calls them a coward and a failure, and partly because I am probably addicted to online porn as an escape, and it would be mortifying for her to tell her family those details, as seems quite possible given what I see as their relentless intrusiveness. Finally, I feel I will be found out for having fallen out of love with my wife, in which case she will want to simply kick me out of the house, divorce me, and leave me to fend for myself. Oddly, these days I am coming to see that prospect as not so bad, compared with who knows how many years coping with her and her family. I can't really see that I will ever again do anything to make my wife feel good, as you recommend.

Sorry for the unloading, but I wanted to give you the most complete answer possible, for me at the moment, on what the problem is. I hope you have some further advice. Thanks.


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## turnera

Ok. First, strong family bonds are impossible to break. You just have to accept it. It's who she is. She TRIED to be someone else for a while, probably because she knew you don't like them and tried to 'be' what you wanted. But you can't break those bonds. 

Second, sorry but you sound like a snob in this regard. Just because it's not the family type that YOU are used to or would choose doesn't mean they aren't healthy, happy people who live a fulfilling life by including one another. If you met my best friend, very poor, 9 kids, 30 year old van, you'd probably think they were wierd. But she's the most loving wonderful person in the world. I advise you to rethink why you are approaching her family this way. Are you sure it isn't tied into your inadequacies? Sounds like it to me. THEY love each other, accept each other, respect each other...who are you to them and your wife (in your mind)?

It's my opinion that, unless a person is abusive or psychotic, they deserve respect and understanding. Maybe if you tried this philosophy, you would find a welcoming family that has been patiently waiting for you to think they are 'good enough.'

Third, you have issues and you use porn because of your own issues...if I were you, I'd be ignoring anything she does for awhile and just buckle down and work on yourself. Make yourself the best person possible. Listen to her. See what she wants in a husband and become that person.


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## SayRathernot

turnera said:


> Ok. First, strong family bonds are impossible to break. You just have to accept it. It's who she is. She TRIED to be someone else for a while, probably because she knew you don't like them and tried to 'be' what you wanted. But you can't break those bonds.
> 
> Second, sorry but you sound like a snob in this regard. Just because it's not the family type that YOU are used to or would choose doesn't mean they aren't healthy, happy people who live a fulfilling life by including one another. If you met my best friend, very poor, 9 kids, 30 year old van, you'd probably think they were wierd. But she's the most loving wonderful person in the world. I advise you to rethink why you are approaching her family this way. Are you sure it isn't tied into your inadequacies? Sounds like it to me. THEY love each other, accept each other, respect each other...who are you to them and your wife (in your mind)?
> 
> It's my opinion that, unless a person is abusive or psychotic, they deserve respect and understanding. Maybe if you tried this philosophy, you would find a welcoming family that has been patiently waiting for you to think they are 'good enough.'
> 
> Third, you have issues and you use porn because of your own issues...if I were you, I'd be ignoring anything she does for awhile and just buckle down and work on yourself. Make yourself the best person possible. Listen to her. See what she wants in a husband and become that person.


Thanks, I think what you wrote is probably the most on target so far. I'm pretty sure I have the impostor syndrome as others suggested, and I recall being embarrassed of my family when I was growing up, and I essentially cut ties with them as a result. I did the same with some friends of well. So I can see I have some issues to work out over my shame and guilt for treating them that way. 

Having said that, I will say that my family at least was heading down a path that would have been a bad influence for me had I stayed. So it's not like I am judging this other family in a way that I did not judge my own. If anything, this family, whatever criticisms I have of it, has a bond closer than anything I ever had with mine. But I had to make a choice at a young age about which life path I would choose. So I picked the book-learning path, which sometimes comes off as snobby but most likely kept me from turning up dead along the no-school path. And given the nasty, traumatic way in which my parents separated, I was acutely worried about reliving that. In classic psychological fashion, though, it seems too close to the way I am heading now. Scary. So even though I'm pretty sure I did the wrong thing by throwing out the baby with the bathwater, so to speak, it was when I was an adolescent and I let my survival instinct get the best of me. I no longer think I am snobby in that way, though. Yes, I often find my wife's family's conversations boring and occasionally racist or sexist, but I also find it boring to hear pseudo-intellectual and overly PC people drone on and on. I like a range of TV and movies, sports, all kinds of music and food, and so on. I don't judge people solely on what they do to make a living or on how much they make. Hell, I don't make so much myself. But I understand that somewhere, somehow, these people tap into something that makes me deeply socially uncomfortable, and they make me feel terribly insecure.

But by the same token, I my wife also finds some of what her family says boring, racist, or sexist. But she gives them a pass because they're her family. They get a pass on everything because they're her family. Yet one our biggest fights was over a time when she felt I didn't defend her against criticism from my sibling. It's like everything is negotiable when it comes to her family, and little if anything is negotiable when it comes to mine.

Also, my wife briefly met some of my family members when we were younger, and she was quite judgmental about them and was, if anything, snobbier than I am with regard to their behavior. Low-class is the term she used. And my wife has also been quite snobby with my sibling's family, whom she regards as sort of materialistic suburbanites. And my wife complains about going to the suburbs to see my sibling a few times a year (which she says she does for me and our child, not because she enjoys it), yet is happy to go much farther to more remote places to see her family. I guess the problem here is that I think my wife is being either hypocritical or just doesn't like my family any more than I like hers. But somehow only my discomfort around her family is the "real" problem in her eyes.

Moreover, my wife's family can be kind of reverse snobs, at least from what I have seen so far, in that they are quite proud of working their way up but rarely seem interested in me aside from noting what school I went to. 

The above is not meant to negate everything you wrote, but it is meant to provide some context. I totally agree that my personal issues are making this whole thing bigger than it should be, and in particular it's magnifying whatever issues I'm currently having with my wife over what kind of treatment I think I deserve. Part of the blame does go to my porn/sex issues, which probably means I have trouble with my manhood or sense of accomplishment. 

At the same time, I honestly feel that my wife does want a different kind of man, but not necessarily for all the good reasons, and why does she get to demand that I change for her if she refuses to compromise at all with me? I think I have been a good father if not the best husband. The porn is a problem, but without that I would have no "sex life" at all. My wife doesn't even want to touch me. I see that I have a role in this -- if I treated her differently, more romantically, she might -- might -- respond, but most of the time I am so angry at her I don't want to be romantic with her. I feel like I would be a fool, rewarding her after she has insulted me and decided that her real relationship has to revolve 100 percent around her family. Well, and our child, too, but certainly I don't see where I fit in.

I guess the rapid way in which I have been pushed to the margins of my wife's life makes me wonder, if she was suppressing her true self so much over those years, what is the point of staying together anymore? Have I done so little for her that in a few months I deserve to be treated like I am the one who needs to beg for a place at the table of my own house, as it were? It's like she's a totally different woman with no need for me. If I mean so little to her, why am I here wondering whether she wants me around? I mean, the problem is fairly mutual -- we often don't seem to be able to have any tenderness or intimacy with each other anymore, but try as I might I can't agree that all of the negativity is mine alone, or my fault only. Sorry - of course, this is all self-pity and at the moment I can't think my way out of it. 

Does anyone have recommendations for what kind of counseling can help in this type of situation?

Thanks.


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## turnera

All I can say is...so what? So freakin' what? You judge, she judges, they judge...in the end, EVERYONE ends up feeling bad because no one is willing to be the bigger person.

Why does she complain when she visits your family? For the exact same reason YOU complain when you visit HER family - you don't feel comfortable. Just because you're comfortable in your sister's house doesn't mean your wife does. You don't share a brain.

Until you're willing to take the high road and 'allow' her to feel what she feels, she will continue to feel unloved, JUDGED, and dismissed by you.


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## F-102

Maybe you both should move FAR AWAY from your families?


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## SayRathernot

turnera said:


> All I can say is...so what? So freakin' what? You judge, she judges, they judge...in the end, EVERYONE ends up feeling bad because no one is willing to be the bigger person.
> 
> Why does she complain when she visits your family? For the exact same reason YOU complain when you visit HER family - you don't feel comfortable. Just because you're comfortable in your sister's house doesn't mean your wife does. You don't share a brain.
> 
> Until you're willing to take the high road and 'allow' her to feel what she feels, she will continue to feel unloved, JUDGED, and dismissed by you.


Thanks for your response. I think, though, that the problem runs deeper than that. If all I had to do was reserve judgement, then I'm sure I could live with that, the way I do in other situations. But in this case, I feel the heat too greatly, so to speak. I have seen and heard enough of the conversations to know that extreme judgement falls on anyone who even slightly crosses these people. Sometimes my wife has hinted that some of them want to hire people to go beat up someone who's pissed them off. And if my wife has told them of our fights (they talk and text many times per day so can't see why she wouldn't have) then they probably hate me already. Naturally they would take her side, and if they already have, may be encouraging the divorce talk. So I am looking at however many years of being the a-hole if I hang around -- or rather, am allowed to hang around -- and the increasingly real prospect of losing my marriage, house, and child if I am not allowed to hang around. And here I thought I was doing an OK if not spectacular job. At this point my wife is very, very cold, barely saying anything to me, you know those times where she could easily say "I am not criticizing you or anything" but you know something is wrong?

My wife is a different person with her family. More outgoing, happier with them than she has been with me in years, closer, more sexual in her humor (which grates on me because of her complete withdrawal of sex from me), louder, less willing to interact in any way with me. Granted, some of this is my fault. When she saw me withdraw early on in their presence, she probably gave up on trying to include me. But it just seems so uncharitable -- I'm talking less than one day of my discomfort when I barely know these people, and she's talking about why I am being so rude to her and them. 

Well, part of why I'm doing it is I'm embarrassed about the state of our marriage, so why would I be happy to be around people who by contrast almost make her forget that I exist? I have never done that when she is around my family, and if she ever has felt that I did, it would be more reason for her to treat me the way she wants to be treated, not get revenge by treating me just as badly. But again, I have never excluded her so much (at all, really) when she is around my family. Sometimes I think my wife is very good at making me look bad. Not that I'm perfect, but she makes me look a lot worse. Then if I do object to being treated that way, she says I blow up and can't take criticism.

She keeps hinting at divorce or asking whether I want to be married to her. I suggested couples' counseling again, but she refused, saying that we each need to go to therapy separately first. I agreed, I'm willing to work with that, but at some level my first problem is trust. I don't even know if she will ever sign up for a counselor. Sadly I now have moments when I wonder whether she has our best interests at heart or whether she is trying to bait me into a divorce that she wants but is trying to "blame" on me -- in a way that would be more out in the open if we had to be in counseling together. But OK, at least she says some kind of therapy may (or may not) work. I have no illusions that I am the bigger person in our marriage, but honestly it is brutal to see how much worse your spouse thinks you are than how you think you're doing. It makes me feel sometimes like I am losing my mind, like I can no longer assess reality. 

So I am trying trying to be civil with my wife and not argumentative or loud. I'm also trying to stay away from the porn, which at this point isn't really even fun anymore. I guess I will start generally first instead of seeking out specific sex addiction counseling, because I don't even know yet whether the porn is really the first place to start anyway. Maybe as my wife says I have residual mother issues that cause me to retreat into sullen childishness instead of maturely confronting issues. Quite possible. But I'm afraid some days that too much damage has been done (like fighting in front of our teen) and how do you recover from that.

Sorry for the long post, but I wasn't sure from your previous response whether you realize how serious this situation is, i.e., how close to divorce, how heated the fighting, and how (in spite of our long-term issues) suddenly it seems to have flared up into a major disaster. 

Thanks.


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## SayRathernot

F-102 said:


> Maybe you both should move FAR AWAY from your families?


Thanks -- but I don't see this happening. We actually live fairly distant from both families geographically, but I have found that at least with my wife's family, distance is meaningless because they talk every day and that bond is part of what is creating distance between me and my wife. It's not a neutral bonding but a very strong exclusionary bonding. Which I can partly understand because they are going through such an intense reunion process, but it's as if our family's life is on the long-range back burner. And given my wife's fighting with me and the way her family demands time and loyalty, I don't see it lessening at all in the future. If anything, it may increase, like where my wife will want to move closer to them.

Thanks.


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## turnera

So...what would make her NOT answer the phone if you're in the room?

First, you not fighting with her!
Second, you not Love Busting her (making her unhappy) in any way.
Third, you learning and MEETING her top Emotional Needs to the point that, when she's around you, she's so happy and fulfilled that she gets more out of being with you than with them.


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## chefmaster

I've honestly never read a post with so much insight into one's own problems. I would go back and read your own posts again a few times. When you do keep in mind a few things:

1. She is the one who has changed, not you.

2. What she say matters, anything her family says or ever will say to you or about you is not your wife's opinion, it is theirs, and should not be given a moment of thought. Do not confuse the two.

3. While it may not be obvious to you, you have the upper hand. 

You have recognized and admitted yours faults while they haven't a clue that what they are doing is wrong.

This includes your wife, even if she is doing it for the right reasons and was at her wits end about what to do about you, she couldn't be handling it in a more destructive manner.(Though no one can be certain those are her motivations.)

-
My advice to you is to make some changes and get some clarity.

1. Download and install a porn blocker like K9 Web Protection or other free blocker from download.com and stick to it, there are a bajillion things on the internet that are incredibly fascinating.
(Before installing the blocker delete anything related to your previous habit, as a measure of good faith.) 

2. Focus on work and counseling.

3. Find something else to do that makes you happy. Whether it be the previously mentioned 'losing touch with my friends, not cultivating independence-oriented skills,' etc. or simply something you enjoy doing. Keep this wish list in plain sight and write on it often.

4. If you can, try to put forth an effort to maintaining your relationship with her that involves your understanding. When it even appears it may become heated go back to improving yourself as a person. Harsh times call for harsh measures and you cannot afford right now to be drawn into negative and destructive behavior.

Ps. Your need for friends right now cannot be emphasized enough.

Best of luck to you.


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## F-102

perhaps she does not want to "lose" her relatives again, and feels she has to agree with them, even if it means hurting you.


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## SayRathernot

Thank you chefmaster, for your detailed and supportive reply. I am starting to do the things you suggested:

1. Stopped porn for now. I will look into the porn blocker but am not sure I want any sign on the computer that this is an issue, for obvious reasons. But with counseling (see below) I may get to the point of broaching that, and finding other ways of staying away from it. I'm sure people say they quit all the time only to go back.

2. I am in the process of selecting a therapist to start counseling. My wife said she would do the same, but I am skeptical that she will do so. At this point, though, I can't worry about that. I will follow through with counseling on my own. It is agonizing to want to trust her motives one moment only to distrust them the next.

3. I'm starting to view other (non-porn) things online when I'm alone (those are the times when I weaken -- it's not a lot of time in terms of hours but it takes its toll in how bad and weak I feel afterward). It does feel good to focus on something else under my own willpower for a change. 

One recent thing that bothers me, though. My wife showed me a photo of the two of us where one of her relatives digitally spliced the face of a man over my face. She met him a month or two ago while visiting the family alone (he's an older man, apparently an old friend of her family she'd not met before), and apparently the new joke is that the man is, shall we say, touchy with women and kissed my wife on the lips and was overly huggy. My wife finds this very funny but I don't. It's not just the bit itself, which is juvenile but probably happens a lot. It's that my wife finds it funny and that she seems not to understand why I don't find it funny. It also symbolizes for me the extent to which she no longer seems to care to lay any ground rules with her family about me, especially if this photo joke indirectly represents hostility against me. I know I should have a better sense of humor about this, but we are staying with her family over Thanksgiving and my wife says she showed me this picture because apparently it will be joked about, and I'm not sure what I am supposed to do about this joking when it happens. I'm also not sure how much this negates your suggestion that I have an upper hand in this situation. But I'll have to do my best to get through the weekend.

Anyway, thanks again so much. I very much appreciate your advice. I know I have a lot of work to do on myself, but I am grateful for your thoughtful response.


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## turnera

Why don't you take up reading or gardening or woodworking, if you tend to stray on the computer?


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## F-102

They photoshopped a picture of you with a new guy's face on it?

HA!!! I KNEW IT!!!

Go back to my first reply. They most definitely-and literally-are trying to get you "out of the picture"!


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## SayRathernot

F-102 said:


> They photoshopped a picture of you with a new guy's face on it?
> 
> HA!!! I KNEW IT!!!
> 
> Go back to my first reply. They most definitely-and literally-are trying to get you "out of the picture"!


Yes, I thought about that when I saw it. You definitely called that one.

Now the dilemma is what to do. My wife will swear up and down that I'm being paranoid and can't take a joke. At least that's my guess. And the fact that it's my first guess is very troubling to me. I feel like I'm starting not to want to make things better if things are headed this way. I have to say that if we didn't have a child, it wouldn't be this hard to consider divorce. But even so, I'm not sure I'll be able to stay in this situation indefinitely. The worst part is that I will feel like even more of a failure if I abandon my child because I can't take the heat of the way I'm being treated. But that would mean waiting around to see if and when my wife divorced me, which would also be humiliating and would leave me in the same boat regarding our child. 

It would be one thing if my wife were sympathetic to some extent. But from what I can tell, it's sink or swim for me now. I don't like the person she becomes when she's with her family, and it is now shifting into the way she is all the time, kind of like she's cut something loose and is very cold and distant to me. And I'm in a bind because at this point I can't really demand anything about her relationship with her family. It's clear that she won't budge on that. 

Well, I will do my best to make it through the next few days. And then I'll see if therapy is any help. 

I will say this, though. Clearly I made some serious mistakes, including some where I'm not even sure what they were. Though now I think they revolved around isolating myself and being too self-focused, which despite my intentions probably ended up making me selfish, or come off as selfish, aloof, or arrogant, and of course my share of withdrawing sexually and romantically. In some moments I wonder whether my mistake was in not leaving when I first met her family years ago when I could have realized I couldn't give her the love she wanted. And coming up against this kind of close relationship that my wife has rekindled with her family has shown me that sometimes it's all about loyalty, and when people make that loyalty decision, as I think my wife has, then there doesn't seem to be anything that can change it, or any way to repair or retain any positive image of myself in her eyes.

But I really didn't think I was as bad as my wife is making feel I am. It's a nauseating feeling. And I have very few people who would be able to support me through any kind of breakup. I guess I have some serious thinking to do along lines I never wanted to consider. 

Thanks again.


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## F-102

Don't you go beating yourself up for this! She adressed the "loyalty" thing when she said "I Do". When you marry someone, your first loyalty has to go to your spouse, and I firmly believe that- to the point of turning my back on my own family if that is necessary. 
Sit her down, tell her that you are thinking of leaving, that you have been looking at places, and that if you do leave, you'll try to be the best father that you can to your child, we'll talk to lawyers about mediation and who gets what, unless you'd rather make this painless...etc.

See how she reacts. If she says "Fine, leave," then I think that this marriage does not have any future that would be worth fighting for. 
If, on the other hand, she gets desperate and begs you not to leave, then you've got her where you want her-listening to YOU, and what it's going to take to save the marriage.


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## chefmaster

SayRathernot said:


> One recent thing that bothers me, though. My wife showed me a photo


Consider this one of the harsh times.

_When it even appears it may become heated go back to improving yourself as a person. Harsh times call for harsh measures and you cannot afford right now to be drawn into negative and destructive behavior._


Even if there were a toolbar called Porn Blocker on every browser page or every once in a while when a pop-up ad caused a giant screen saying THIS PORN HAS BEEN BLOCKED! it would be okay. That won't happen, but whatever small inconvenient reminder of the porn blocker you may notice, just look at it and smile at your achievment and go back to what you were doing. 
I get the 'obvious reasons' comment but the only thing a porn blocker is a sign of is that you don't wan't porn on your computer.

Happy Thanksgiving I hope all goes well at the dinner and just keep in mind that all of this work and effort you are putting in has no choice but to help make you a better person and other people's mere opinions cannot change that.


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## F-102

What bothers me is that she had the audacity to SHOW you the picture. I'm still convinced that they are introducing her to more "suitable" prospects, and she's digging it! Showing you the photo is a way for her to say "This is what you have to compete with".


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## SayRathernot

F-102 said:


> What bothers me is that she had the audacity to SHOW you the picture. I'm still convinced that they are introducing her to more "suitable" prospects, and she's digging it! Showing you the photo is a way for her to say "This is what you have to compete with".


Thanks. Things are going poorly this weekend. I'll leave it at that for now.


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## SayRathernot

NoLongerSad said:


> She's already cheating on you, or intends to.
> 
> Have "your" child DNA tested.
> 
> Depending on the results, it might make your decision a little bit easier.
> 
> Your marriage is finished.


I'm afraid you may be right. I feel nauseated. 

Might as well fill in some details. Earlier in the trip, I drank a lot and told her family some of the problems I've stated here (not sure what because I had an alc-induced blackout - scary). It was bad.
My wife is clearly very angry but won't talk it out and says I'm whining when I tell her about my problems with the way she gets around her family. 
One of my wife's male relatives has been taking her out a lot during our the rest of our stay.
Gone for hours at a time to his apt. where his roommate, a self-avowed seduction artist, apparently took photos of her in a police hat and she said naughtily "I was being arrested." Her other relatives found this amusing even though it was all discussed within my earshot. She also went to an adult store with this relative supposedly cause he needed to get something there. My wife has avoided me like the plague, first says she wants to get home before arguing about this, then she comes over and tries to ask me how I'm doing. Like she doesn't know. Now this roommate thing. I am crushed. I don't care what else I've done, even the porn, I never ever have done anything like that with a real person, flagrantly, on vacation with our child. What can I do?


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## turnera

Find someone else who knows how to maintain a loving marriage.


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## F-102

In response to the "I was getting arrested", take pictures of you and a lawyer discussing paperwork. Tell her: "This is you getting a divorce!"


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## major misfit

I'm sorry..but these don't sound like people I'd like to spend time with either. And I'm far from being a snob. You made conscious choice to live your life a certain way, and you certainly have that right to do so. If she made changes in order to be with you, that's her doing..not yours. Could it be that in the beginning that she was ashamed of her own family? 
I don't like all that crude, "macho" crap either. It's just so much posturing. It has NOTHING to do with finances, and everything to do with character. If they're involved with illegal activities that speaks volumes about their character and/or mental state. You want to think twice before hitching your cart to that train.
I have no real advice for you. I kinda see you in a no win situation here. I just wanted to let you know that I've heard you, and I totally understand where you're coming from.


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## SayRathernot

Thanks, major misfit. I have my part in this too, of course. I do have distant memories of meeting them way before we got married, and I felt similar discomfort and still stayed in. Granted, I didn't know all the stuff I know now, and I am angry at being put in the position of either demanding that my wife not see them or enduring the discomfort I feel and seeing it grow worse as I begin to incur obligations to them by virtue of the relationship with my wife and child. 

If you read the whole thread, you'll see that things have gotten worse, especially regarding my emtional state and the things my wife is doing to blame me. I don't hate my wife, and I really don't dislike her family either. But I know that my discomfort is real and not just my inability to get along. I need to find out the whole set of principles I think I will compromise by ignoring this voice inside me. But for starters, the things one of her relatives is doing to nudge her toward flirting and other risque behavior are driving me crazy. I know I tend toward jealousy because of my insecurity. But I also know when the jealousy is warranted. I also for once was able to make my wife concede that the "I was being arrested" role play described above was neither innocent nor anything like what she does with her other male friends whom I never say anything about. 

I guess the greatest pain is that imy wife has been engulfed by them - she's talking to them even now - and it's just making the other problems harder to deal with. And divorce has grown from a distant possibility to an imminent consideration in my mind.

Am I crazy? Insecure and throwing away a marriage instead of improving myself personally? Am I thinking right or not? How can I tell the difference?

Thanks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SayRathernot

Last night was the worst ever. I tried to talk with my wife about the police hat photo, but she threw it back at me, saying she was disturbed and disgusted by me and that if anything I should be more troubled by her emotional affair with her family. But she called me a burden and a coward and sad that she doesn't want me to visit them with her anymore. And that I should not expect her to defend me. She also told the mother of her male relative about my accusation of him re the photos (including the one where I was spliced out). I feel so sick to my stomach. That man did help me when I was in trouble, so I regret having mentioned the photo things to my wife (esp the police hat on), but I see now that she will tell them everything I say and that it will be used against me. I will never live this down while we're still married and possibly never. I feel the worst for our child, whom I feel I betrayed in the deepest way, getting us deeper into this mess with my drinking binge. Is there any hope besides separation and divorce? I've never ever felt so bad before. And my wife is so good at turning all of this on me to the point that I feel compelled to admit that this is all my fault. Perhaps if I had been honest from the start things would be different.

How disgraced I feel right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

I think the time has come, bro...seperation time.


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## SayRathernot

Separation, even with a mid-teen child? I will try to discuss this in therapy, because this, even more than the other things I've done, is one I won't get to take back.

Thanks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## major misfit

I did read the whole thread. And you're in a very bad spot here. I'm encouraged to read that you're going to discuss this in therapy, hopefully your T will have some answers for you.
IFIFIF it comes to it, there are worse things than divorce with a child in their mid teens. I hear you that divorce is the last thing you want, and you appear to be owning your own part in this mess. The problem is that your wife isn't owning hers. And she has no loyalty to you. In order for ANY relationship to be successful, BOTH parties have to be on board. Your wife doesn't show any inclination to be on board. 
I feel there's more to your story than you're telling, and I'm not trying to pry or get you to divulge more than you're comfortable doing. You've been quite open and honest here. But really...how do you have a successful marriage if only one person is doing the work? Marriage IS work. Any relationship is. Especially after 20 years. You get caught up in life all those years and the marriage gets neglected. People get neglected. It's really hard to repair that kind of neglect. 
I just want to reassure you that divorce (and I really hope it doesn't come to that) isn't the end of the world. You can still be a real and active part of your child's life. I would also discuss with your T that IF it comes down to divorce, how best to proceed forward with your child. 
Honestly, it sounds as though your child is living in a broken home as it is. I'm not a big Dr. Phil fan, but to quote "a child would rather be from a broken home than live in one" is only too true. I've read (and heard) so many people confess that they wished their parents had divorced long before they did. It affects them profoundly. You think you're protecting your child from certain things but I can assure you that you aren't. They know. And I do believe that they find ways to blame themselves. I've seen it myself. 
I know I'm not being very supportive here. I'm not trying to NOT be. It's just that you're in a tough spot with no easy answers.


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## SayRathernot

major misfit said:


> I did read the whole thread. And you're in a very bad spot here. I'm encouraged to read that you're going to discuss this in therapy, hopefully your T will have some answers for you.
> IFIFIF it comes to it, there are worse things than divorce with a child in their mid teens. I hear you that divorce is the last thing you want, and you appear to be owning your own part in this mess. The problem is that your wife isn't owning hers. And she has no loyalty to you. In order for ANY relationship to be successful, BOTH parties have to be on board. Your wife doesn't show any inclination to be on board.
> I feel there's more to your story than you're telling, and I'm not trying to pry or get you to divulge more than you're comfortable doing. You've been quite open and honest here. But really...how do you have a successful marriage if only one person is doing the work? Marriage IS work. Any relationship is. Especially after 20 years. You get caught up in life all those years and the marriage gets neglected. People get neglected. It's really hard to repair that kind of neglect.
> I just want to reassure you that divorce (and I really hope it doesn't come to that) isn't the end of the world. You can still be a real and active part of your child's life. I would also discuss with your T that IF it comes down to divorce, how best to proceed forward with your child.
> Honestly, it sounds as though your child is living in a broken home as it is. I'm not a big Dr. Phil fan, but to quote "a child would rather be from a broken home than live in one" is only too true. I've read (and heard) so many people confess that they wished their parents had divorced long before they did. It affects them profoundly. You think you're protecting your child from certain things but I can assure you that you aren't. They know. And I do believe that they find ways to blame themselves. I've seen it myself.
> I know I'm not being very supportive here. I'm not trying to NOT be. It's just that you're in a tough spot with no easy answers.


Thank you so much. I have a therapist lined up, and some medication, and I hear you about the broken home advice. I came from a broken home myself, and eeriely enough our child is the same age I was when it happened. My wife's story is even worse.

About there being more to my story, I don't doubt that. I think I covered it generally, but to be more detailed, I have always been the more passive partner. I didn't take to her passionately in the beginning the way she did to me. She really courted me and chased me. I don't know if that is automatically a bad sign when it comes to men and women, but she had a very hard childhood, had to mother her own mother, lost her mother as a high schooler, and has ever since been very sensitive about how much she does versus how much is taken care of for her. We got a long way (almost 20 years) with my kind of assistant attitude, but clearly that stopped working around last year. And she really felt hurt when someone in my family criticized her parenting and I didn't come to her defense. In a later fight, I mistakenly said that if she had those problems she should confront the relative herself. Big mistake, based on the loyalty advice in this thread. So now my wife is throwing it back at me and I really have no answer to that. I was not loyal to her when she wanted it.

And the contrast between that and these manly men in her family is, as far as I can tell, really lighting up her anger -- hatred, really -- for how passive I am, and how passive-aggressive I was regarding her family's behavior. I was the one who drank too much and divulged too much. Now I have to pay the consequences. But what hurts me is that I currently see no hope -- she has admitted that it is an emotional affair with her family, yet doesn't want to stop it. It comforts her more than I think I ever could again. At the same time, I have been reading that it is bad idea to make big life decisions when you're in a bad state -- depression, etc. -- and I think that is where I am at now. I am beginning to suspect that I may indeed be in a major depression, and have been for years, and that is what has slowly eaten away at our relationship. But I am devastated by my wife's savage insults of my, how she says I am a coward, a burden, without balls, you name it.

This is hard, man. I doubt this can be traced back only to hardcore porn, but I wonder how things might have been different if I had not been exposed to it at an early age (11) by some kids I thought were my friends. Now that I think about it, One of the older of those kids also exposed himself to me when we were all in a room together. 

I am starting to recall these incidents that increasingly may explain my attitudes toward sex and emotional bonds. My wife misunderstood my anger about the police photo by saying I am blind and don't realize that emotional affairs can be a lot more intense than sexual ones. I don't think she realizes that I know that, and that it is because I am starving for emotional contact whether or not it leads to sex. My problem, I think, is that I still consider sex a big part of what I want in a relationship, to represent that the two of you have the trust and intimacy to let the other person's body meet theirs.

Thanks.


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## turnera

Yes, but women rarely agree to that when they aren't getting their emotional needs met first. You have to GIVE her non-SF intimacy in order to get your SF intimacy you want. Sorry, that's just how women are wired (generally speaking). In other words, you have to put it on the back burner for now and concentrate on being the husband she wants/needs.


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## SayRathernot

Thanks. Being the husband she wants/needs is difficult now because she has admitted that she's having an emotional affair with her relatives, but won't agree that it means it is taking away from our marriage. Why can't you be happy for me, she says, and she says she was disgusted that I thought the police hat photo was a sex play. She says I don't understand women and that I should be more upset with the emotional affair. Well, I say, I am upset about both, but you don't want me to be upset about either. She defends her family all the way and seems to be angry that I don't like them the way she does. So I can see why she doesn't even want to think about sex with me, but she also doesn't even want to touich me non-sexually or talk to me. She thinks I am somehow ignorant of emotion or interested only in sex. This is a big communication problem between us.

Thanks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

I love these "Don't hate the playa, hate the game" types. That is the lamest excuse for crummy behavior if I ever heard it-means she doesn't want to take any responsiblity in your marriage, she wants you to do all the work and then has a royal kimchi fit when you don't "do it right".
And that BS about her "hard life". That's her free ticket to act like a total b***h, and you are just sitting back, making excuses for her, taking the lousy ones she gives you, and you just sit on your a** and moan and groan about how bad you've got it.
Grow up, grow a pair, and tell that collection of low-life scum that she calls a family to step off, and tell her that you are not going to put up with her s**t any longer.


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## turnera

So stop pushing for sex. Until you've shown her that you are the man she chooses to be with.

_They meet her needs._

What are you doing to compete with that?


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## SayRathernot

To F-102 - I know what you mean but I'm not sure I can do it that way. I think "scum" is too harsh a description. They strike me as strong family that has favorites and know their own rules for working things. They tend to want to absorb others into the family and turn them into the same thing. And they seem to have little conscience in certain areas.

I'm not big on the growing a pair cry - my wife said it to me, too. I know it's true - I should directly confront them on some of these issues. But it would be hard for me. Not only are they intimidating to me, but (1) I lost a lot of high ground with my blackout behavior including that one of them got me out of public before I got arrested or hurt, and (2) I can expect no backup from my wife. (BTW the first she said about my therapy is to be clear that she won't take all the blame for my anxiety.) The best I could hope for in a confrontation scenario is to politely apologize, come clean about my discomfort with their relationship with my wife, and eliminate or minimize contact with them. Then either stay with or leave my wife in the aftermath. My wife was surprised that I feared losing my child (not seeing her much or at all) if she and I split, but I reminded her that I have some tough family history too that included splits where the other people were never seen again. That's why my stomach is in knots and I can't think straight. I hope the therapy will help me.

Thanks.


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## turnera

Why not just practice Total Honesty with them?

"Jim [after he makes a joke about your wife], when you make jokes about my wife's figure, it upsets me and I know it hurts her feelings, even though I know she won't tell you, because you're her brother. So I'd really rather you stop making jokes at my wife's expense."

And leave it at that.

Sometimes, all that's needed in such an inclusive group is for one person to just speak the truth.

And think of all the Love Bank points you'd gain for such a comment.


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## F-102

I know bud, the consequences could be staggering, but I still think you are going about this too passively. And now it seems you are making excuses for her family, and no, I don't think "scum" is too harsh for them. They are totally disrespecting you and making you feel like crap, and they took your wife along for the ride. Sounds like maybe your marriage was fine until they showed up.

BTW, it sounds like your W is a classic example of "Don't know what you've got until you lose it." That's why I advocated seperation earlier, and not divorce. And about your kid- would you rather he sees his dad not there, but trying hard to be a good father, or dad getting castrated and beaten down daily by the others?


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## SayRathernot

F-102 said:


> I know bud, the consequences could be staggering, but I still think you are going about this too passively. And now it seems you are making excuses for her family, and no, I don't think "scum" is too harsh for them. They are totally disrespecting you and making you feel like crap, and they took your wife along for the ride. Sounds like maybe your marriage was fine until they showed up.
> 
> BTW, it sounds like your W is a classic example of "Don't know what you've got until you lose it." That's why I advocated seperation earlier, and not divorce. And about your kid- would you rather he sees his dad not there, but trying hard to be a good father, or dad getting castrated and beaten down daily by the others?


Fair enough, I hear you. Thanks again for the supportive comments. I have started therapy, so I am hoping for the best if things head toward separation. God, this is awful. But I will try somehow to reconstruct my dignity.


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## F-102

There you go, bro-keep a sane head and work on you. Be the best father to your kid right now, because you have to set the example for him, even in the face of sheer stupidity.
Make yourself the good guy, and who knows, your wife might be back on board.


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## SayRathernot

F-102 said:


> There you go, bro-keep a sane head and work on you. Be the best father to your kid right now, because you have to set the example for him, even in the face of sheer stupidity.
> Make yourself the good guy, and who knows, your wife might be back on board.


Thanks. It's hard, maybe the worst I've ever felt. I won't say I've been a knight in shining armor for my wife, but I am devastated by the way she is portraying me as being so bad to her. My stomach has been in knots for days, I can barely concentrate on work, can't speak with her even though I want to. And all the while she has daily, multi-hour calls with them. I'm pretty sure I've sunk into a fairly significant depression, it's scary to think how I'd feel without the medication. 

I also figure there is a major jealousy component on my part, but as I said before, if she admits that it's an emotional affair, then you'd think an affair is something that should end once it is revealed. But if she won't end it, then that says a lot to me. And in a way she has the cover of the fact that it's her family, because it's not sexual, which would be a lot harder to be defiant about. And at this point I have no way to ask her not to see them, and no way I feel comfortable dealing with them. 

But, man, this is killing me, especially heading into the holidays.

Thanks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SayRathernot

F-102 said:


> There you go, bro-keep a sane head and work on you. Be the best father to your kid right now, because you have to set the example for him, even in the face of sheer stupidity.
> Make yourself the good guy, and who knows, your wife might be back on board.


Well, time for an update. So my wife went away on a weekend trip with a couple of her relatives. After she came back, I found condoms in her purse, including a couple of empty wrappers. I was furious and panicked at the same time.

I confronted her about them. The first thing she said was that they were for me. That she had talked with her relatives and got "soft" and she bought them as something she might possibly use with me if things got better. I asked her why some had been opened. She said she and one relative (she's very close to him out of all of them) were goofing around with them after she opened one to feel the sensation of it.

Then she started getting upset with me for looking in her purse. Honestly, I was looking for something else, but I did feel a kind of vindication when I found them that I am not sure is warranted. If it had been either more clearly innocent or more clearly irrefutable, I might feel better. But her excuse is, to me, just plausible enough that I didn't have anything to catch her on in terms of a contradiction. But it seems so unlikely that she would buy condoms when we never have sex and she is being so critical of me and so involved with her family that it would seem to be the last thing on her mind.

I don't buy her story, in other words, but I may have confronted her too soon and now she may better cover her tracks. Other sites suggest that I should have taken the condoms and wait to see how she reacted. I also didn't count them so now I don't know if she's taken some back. She told me she was putting them away, so I know where they are, but I can't recall the original count.

Anyway, she's going away again this weekend and will meet up with this relative, and of all the odd things she said over the original condom fight was that she was disgusted that I would think she would cheat so anonymously, and I said well I don't know what to think anymore when I find something like that. And why couldn't she tell me she got them for me. She said that would distract you because you think if we sleep together everything will be better. I said I don't think that, but she wouldn't listen. Anyway, she said she would have preferred for me to suspect that she was sleeping with her relative (he is a somewhat distant cousin) since at least they have this emotional affair. And I said that is a bizarre thing to say, and anyway why would that make it better? 

I must say things are looking mighty bleak. But I would really like to know from anyone out there, especially women, is there anything to this explanation that sometimes a woman might buy condoms for a man where it would look suspicious if he stumbled onto them but in fact were a real moment of weakness where the woman got them for her husband hoping for a better future? In my case I can't see it, but maybe I'm blinded by my pessimism. In either case, I am now so suspicious and angry that I want to find some way to monitor things more closely for harder evidence. I bet all men in this situation never thought they'd be the ones in it.

Thanks.


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## turnera

No, I would not believe her.

Do you have a keylogger installed on her computer? Do you have phone records? Do you have a voice-activated recorder hidden in her car?


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## SayRathernot

turnera said:


> No, I would not believe her.
> 
> Do you have a keylogger installed on her computer? Do you have phone records? Do you have a voice-activated recorder hidden in her car?


No, not yet. I can install one on our home computer, but she has a password on her iPhone and always keeps it close to her. I assume I can't get phone records because the phone is in her name only. 

The car is less of an issue at the moment. She has been traveling by plane to other states. Getting to her phone would be the best option but is the hardest. I am thinking about how to install a keylogger on our computer, but I'm thinking that she won't reveal nearly as much on the computer as she does on her iPhone. But I can't get to her phone and I don't want to make a mistake installing something and have her catch me. I read that there are programs and other ways to catch phone spy software, and I don't want to get caught doing that. 

This situation really sucks. It's surreal, something I never thought I would be up against. I already have low self-confidence and cannot imagine how I would make it on my own. But if I want to make a stand, I would have to do so. I am not the one to threaten divorce. But I don't even want a trial separation. Despite my flaws, I believe in either trying as hard as possible to make it work, or divorce with a fresh start, say it once and follow through. And I can't believe she would cheat on me when I have not been a horrible father and husband to her. Separation just seems to me a chance for her to get me out of the house and possibly get a new man while she's at it. I hate to be so suspicious but I feel like now she's just making a fool of me. All she can say is that she shouldn't have to wait until things are really bad (beating, abuse etc.) to want to be away from me and that we both have fallen out of love. But I don't think I have been so bad to deserve such treatment, and I for one have not fallen out of love with her as much as she has fallen out of love with me. The in-laws/family problem is what has brought this to a head, and she is simply not budging on it. Though I don't see any of that as an excuse for cheating anyway. And on top of all that, I hate being treated like I am paranoid when something as flagrant as condoms are involved. On the other hand, I should "man up" so to speak and plan for the worst. 

Bad stuff indeed. I think the only way to track her phone texts and calls is to somehow install software on it, but that comes with the problems I listed above. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I don't think she's careless enough to charge anything suspicious so I am up against one of two people: (1) a truly innocent but angry wife who is just fed up with me or (2) a wife who is playing me for a fool out of shame or sadism. Neither one is good, although (2) is worse as far as I am concerned. But without hard evidence she will stick to her story to the end. I suppose I may have options for setting up something in our house while she is away. Any advice would be appreciated as well.

Oh, to be a fly on the wall.

Thanks.


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## F-102

I'm going to give it to you cold and hard: I think she wanted you to find those condoms. Come on, if she really didn't want you to know, she wouldn't have left them where she knew you would look, and as an added bonus for her, now she could accuse you of spying when you did find them.

I think you'd better face the reality-she is cheating, and this marriage is over. If it was me, I'd get a good lawyer and see what my options are, then when she came back from these little trips that you keep letting her go on, she would come back to a U-haul in the driveway with all of her stuff in it, and me tossing her the keys saying good luck, I hope your family can take you in.


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## F-102

Sad fact is, she's doing all of this to push your buttons, hoping to get an extreme response from you. She wants to leave, but she wants you to say it first, so that YOU will be the bad guy, she's already doing this with the little hints of infidelity. She's hoping that you will get so tired of this, that you will say that maybe seperation is not such a bad idea.
Then, she can tell her lawyer (her family probably has a few scumbags in the bullpen by now) and anyone who will listen that she so badly wanted to work things out, but no, YOU were the one who wanted to leave, YOU were the one who came up with all the ideas of her cheating, YOU were the one who spied on her, YOU were the abusive one, YOU were the one who drove her to take desperate measures, YOU are the one who is unreasonable and wants to destroy the marriage, in short, YOU are the one who's to blame.


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## turnera

At this point, I would either (1) hire a PI to get proof or (2) tell her you want a separation and move her out.


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## SayRathernot

F-102 said:


> Sad fact is, she's doing all of this to push your buttons, hoping to get an extreme response from you. She wants to leave, but she wants you to say it first, so that YOU will be the bad guy, she's already doing this with the little hints of infidelity. She's hoping that you will get so tired of this, that you will say that maybe seperation is not such a bad idea.
> Then, she can tell her lawyer (her family probably has a few scumbags in the bullpen by now) and anyone who will listen that she so badly wanted to work things out, but no, YOU were the one who wanted to leave, YOU were the one who came up with all the ideas of her cheating, YOU were the one who spied on her, YOU were the abusive one, YOU were the one who drove her to take desperate measures, YOU are the one who is unreasonable and wants to destroy the marriage, in short, YOU are the one who's to blame.


Thanks. What can I do practically speaking, though? I do think some proof exists on her phone, and this is supported by her increasingly keeping it with her at all times. 

I also understand that she may be trying to set me up as the bad guy, but how do I NOT get tired, so to speak, and not allow myself to be cast as the bad guy? I also did some small amount of divorce research, and at least one site advises not to move out of the residence at all until advised by a lawyer to do so. I feel totally screwed, surrounded by no-win options.

Thanks for any further help.


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## F-102

Then, get a lawyer, and get some good advice to save yourself.


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## SayRathernot

F-102 said:


> Then, get a lawyer, and get some good advice to save yourself.


OK, I can't believe it's come to this, but I will explore my options for getting a lawyer or investigator. 

Thanks to everyone for their advice.


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