# Polarized about money



## WaitingForChange (Jul 16, 2015)

Hi all- This is my first post. I am struggling with fear. My husband and I are really in debt. We have two young children, living in the very expensive San Francisco Bay area. We are living less than check-to-check, on credit cards and paying bills late. The short version of my history with this is that, before I got married, I was a person who "walks on water" in terms of credit (this from the mouth of a banker). Never late with payments. Never not paying off a credit card in full. Now I am at the opposite end of the pool, sinking further and further. But the fear is about the fact that my husband and I are completely polarized in terms of approach to finances. Here is a recent - simple but telling - example: He mentioned a few weeks ago that he wants to buy a digital camera on credit. He really wants it. He asked me about it as in the past (right after he moved back in from a two-month separation about 18 months ago) he bought a $1500 computer on credit, when we needed exactly that amount to get some dental work done for my daughter! So, sour feelings there. It was good that he asked me about it; I told him I wanted to think about it. Then a few days ago he brought it up again. I said that I could not tell him what to do with his money, but said in what I thought was a gentle manner that we have to make choices - so if that money goes to monthly payments on a camera, there are other things that won't get paid for. The list is VERY long, of obligations and debt, not to mention savings for a multitude of things. Later, he said "I guess I will wait a few months… the way you look at it/talk about it is a little harsh…"

Aaarrgh! I just can't believe how hard this is! I can't believe that he wants a digital camera (he already has a nice film one, and the iPhone 6), when we literally can't pay our monthly bills let alone take the kids out for ice-cream. Literally. My view is polar opposite: let's be creative and have fun with living frugally. Let's remember that we are often talk about not wanting to be, or valuing, "materialism." Let's remember that we owe people money; that our kids will be in college before we know it; that we are behind in retirement savings. It just goes on and on, but you get the point.

I am trying to be in the present, and not be fearful of or dwell on previous bad money conversations. But it's been years, and we are still struggling. When we were separated and seeing a family counselor, he said that all moneys within a married couple belong to both. I had said that if I had my way, I would put all our money in the middle of the table, pull out all the bill money, give each of us $25 to blow on miscellaneous whatevers, and then decide, together, what to do with the rest. When I mentioned that in a counseling session, the therapist was nodding his head, and basically said 'that's the idea; that's what you need to do." My husband was highly resistant. 

I know that I fear and avoid conflict, and that my part in this has been that I have been less-than-communicative about what's happening. I know more about our balances because I pay all the bills except for 2-3 that are for his personal things like his cell phone, and some small credit cards. My fear is partly my fault, my lack of courage, but also based on many bad experiences in the past trying to work with him on this. I have tried so many ways to approach it and non seem to work. 

Thanks for reading. I welcome all comments, advice and support!


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## Maneo (Dec 4, 2012)

tough place you are in. you are tied to your husband in a financial sense so as he spends and destroys credit rating you go with him. do you have any source of income and ability to handle your money separate from his? are all the credit cards joint or some with only your name or his? 
since it doesn't sound like he is willing to stop his spending you need to control what you can and do what you can to expand that sphere of control


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## WaitingForChange (Jul 16, 2015)

Hi Maneo-

Thanks for the quick response. I do have a source of income, as well as credit cards in my name and a separate checking and savings account. We simply don't have enough to cover everything, yet we still (mostly on his urging) go out to dinner and to the movies, go to events, etc. when we really should not! I am somewhat guilty of this frivolous spending as well, I think mostly out of exhaustion and wanting a break from it all. 

I need to come up with a whole new way of 1) talking about it and 2) getting him to be more involved and responsible in a way that I can trust that things will actually get taken care of! 

For my recent birthday, he gave me a $400 gift card for a large expensive clothing store. Where the hell did that money come from? Why $400? So unnecessary! But… I do need some new clothes, and it came from a place of him wanting to "take care of me" and do something "nice" for me. However! if he really knew me, I'd have gotten a certificate to the local thrift store - that would have been fine with me, really. I think it might be a pride issue with him too. 

Thanks for your comments. I will keep watching here and keep brainstorming. 

WFC


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

Getting out of a situation like this requires cooperation from both people. Money issues are a big source of marital strife. He sounds selfish an immature, his priorities are out of whack. Seriously, he is buying himself toys when he has a child that needs dental work (that is neglect IMO). 

Have you thought of going to a non profit credit counseling service? They would be able to help you slap a financial leash on you H. Someone needs to and it seems like you are too soft on him.


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## Maneo (Dec 4, 2012)

one of the things on almost all lists concerning handling money and reducing debt includes setting a budget and doing everything possible to stick to that budget. hard at first but it gets easier over time.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

You might have something to work with, here. If he genuinely wants to "take care of" you, it's just a matter of getting him to see that providing you with security means far more to you than providing you with stuff. Nobody can feel secure while they are up to their eyeballs in debt. Expensive clothes, a laptop, a digital camera, are going to be worth squat in a couple of years yet their owners are probably still going to be making payments. 

You might take him to a couple of yard sales. Let him see people almost giving away stuff they slaved months to pay for. 

Another approach you might take is to convince him that you and the kids need him more than his stuff. Each time he chooses to swipe a card, he is choosing to spend a chunk of his life working away from you and the kids. If he's lucky, he gets maybe 12 years to have a meaningful impact on his kids, to build memories, to teach them who their father is. It'd be an awful shame to spend that time scuffling to pay the bank for the privilege of buying crap that will be obsolete in a couple years. 

If you want him to be a financial partner (and he really has to be), he has to participate in bill paying, not just earning a check. Once or twice a month, sit him down when everyone is nice and calm and go over the budget with him so he can see with his own eyes just where his earnings go and just how much of it is going to pay credit card interest. Plan meals ahead of time and get going on it before he comes home so he'll be less inclined to want to go out to eat. Maybe there's a park nearby or a nice area to take an evening walk as a family so y'all can have family time or couple time without whipping out a credit card. I think some guys overspend to look like a big shot. You could try to squash that mess by praising him now and then for working hard, being a good dad, husband, etc. Show him you value you that stuff more than the things he buys. Even though it's not your natural tendency to get into conflict, money management is too important to let slide. If you do, you're as big a part of the problem as he is.


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

Have you both looked at the budget and future savings goals together?

I ask because I know sometimes one spouse will control the finances alone and the other person really has no clear black & white understanding of the overall picture.

Its really about having common goals discussed over the actual numbers. And its not that he can't have a camera...he just might not be able to have it right now. 

I'm married but I manage my own money...my husband manages his but we have very similar money values and we have shared goals for early retirement that we both work on. We use a reverse budget strategy. I basically pay all my monthly expenses, then the deductions for all investment accounts, emergency fund and charity...what's left over, I can blow on whatever I want.

It works really well and if you and your husband have joint finances, the money in overflow can be split between the two of you. If there's no overflow, you know you have a problem and need to earn more or cut the budget. No one touches the accounts until the initial budget is satisfied though and you have to come to an understanding to have account controls.

I think the paradigm is that when someone is bad with money, you want to keep them away from the finances but the actual reverse is true. When someone is bad with money, you need to educate and empower them. Let him help with the money planning and work on commonizing your money morality. You need to have shared values and goals to make this work.


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## WaitingForChange (Jul 16, 2015)

Oh everyone, I definitely came to the right place! This is all so helpful! Your responses are all consistent with my rational thinking as well as my gut instincts. I just need to get up the courage to really sit down with him and go through this (again). If he can't handle setting up a budget, and gets defensive and angry (again) then I will have done all I can do and I really need to evaluate if we can make this marriage work. I am that desperate, and I really don't want things to end especially given the kids. 

I am an Excel nerd, and have all our monthly expenses as well as middle and long-term debt all laid out in different spreadsheets. I've tried putting weekly bills into a budget spreadsheet, with the idea that we can take each week's income, look at what is due that week, and then decide what to pay and how much. 

Altho nothing I have presented has worked for him to-date, he doesn't have an alternative system, and so if he doesn't ask for help in the way he needs it, I can't help him. 

I will report back very soon.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

WaitingForChange said:


> Thanks for reading. I welcome all comments, advice and support!


Separate all finances. Learn to pay YOUR bills on your OWN salary. Stop depending on his. DO NOT GIVE HIM ACCESS TO YOUR MONEY. He will never change. It's how he was raised.


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## WaitingForChange (Jul 16, 2015)

turnera said:


> Separate all finances. Learn to pay YOUR bills on your OWN salary. Stop depending on his. DO NOT GIVE HIM ACCESS TO YOUR MONEY. He will never change. It's how he was raised.


Hi turnera; I would like to try something like this, but how can we separate the oh-so-many shared expenses like mortgage, insurance, food, utilities, etc? He gives me some, but not all, of his checks each month. He probably gives me $700 a week average when he brings home $1100.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Find a way to cut back on stuff so that you can pay for all these things on your salary. Cheaper cable bill, use coupons, sell old clothes at resale stores, shop at the 99 cent store (they even have fresh vegetables!)...

You'll find that once you can pay for everything yourself, that big issue will disappear. Of course, it will be replaced by MASSIVE resentment on your part, as in 'why do I even need you?' But that's good, because it will allow you to treat him as an equal, whom you do not NEED. And once you can deal with him thusly, the next step is to show strength and say 'if you're not contributing the way I need you to, we need to talk.' Only THEN will he listen to you and wake up.


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## WaitingForChange (Jul 16, 2015)

turnera said:


> Find a way to cut back on stuff so that you can pay for all these things on your salary. Cheaper cable bill, use coupons, sell old clothes at resale stores, shop at the 99 cent store (they even have fresh vegetables!)...
> 
> You'll find that once you can pay for everything yourself, that big issue will disappear. Of course, it will be replaced by MASSIVE resentment on your part, as in 'why do I even need you?' But that's good, because it will allow you to treat him as an equal, whom you do not NEED. And once you can deal with him thusly, the next step is to show strength and say 'if you're not contributing the way I need you to, we need to talk.' Only THEN will he listen to you and wake up.


Hi again-
This is a very interesting perspective. The things you list about ways to cut back are exactly the kinds of things I would do if my husband were not in the picture. Seems kinda logical. However, I don't think I could pay all the bills that way; our mortgage alone is right around half or even a bit more of my net pay.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

But you can't depend on his income, can you? So stop putting yourself in financial purgatory every single month, wondering if he's going to come through? Your housing shouldn't cost more than 25% of your total income, so a new budget is in order.


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## WaitingForChange (Jul 16, 2015)

turnera said:


> But you can't depend on his income, can you? So stop putting yourself in financial purgatory every single month, wondering if he's going to come through? Your housing shouldn't cost more than 25% of your total income, so a new budget is in order.


 Are you saying that I should turn down the $2500-$2800/month that he gives me? That I have been able to depend on. It's just not enough.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

OH, no, don't turn it down. Just fix your finances so that you can survive whether he pays you or not. And when he DOES pay you, either pay down your debt with it, build up your Emergency Savings Fund (you should have at least $1000 in emergency money, maybe $2000 since you're in San Francisco), start a college fund for kids, invest in a 401k, and start up a real savings account. And in your dream world, if you save up enough money, start investing in some real estate down the road, so you never have to depend on your income again.


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## WaitingForChange (Jul 16, 2015)

turnera said:


> OH, no, don't turn it down. Just fix your finances so that you can survive whether he pays you or not. And when he DOES pay you, either pay down your debt with it, build up your Emergency Savings Fund (you should have at least $1000 in emergency money, maybe $2000 since you're in San Francisco), start a college fund for kids, invest in a 401k, and start up a real savings account. And in your dream world, if you save up enough money, start investing in some real estate down the road, so you never have to depend on your income again.


Thanks for all your attention to my plight! I will think about all this. In order to do what you suggest, I would have to move, and change almost everything in my life. That would not happen without a total disruption of my family life. 

However, I can do some of the smaller things, like shopping at cheaper stores, filling my tank at cheaper gas stations and getting clothes at the thrift store. At least when my husband is not on any of those errands with me! :frown2:


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## WaitingForChange (Jul 16, 2015)

unbelievable said:


> Maybe there's a park nearby or a nice area to take an evening walk as a family so y'all can have family time or couple time without whipping out a credit card. I think some guys overspend to look like a big shot. You could try to squash that mess by praising him now and then for working hard, being a good dad, husband, etc. Show him you value you that stuff more than the things he buys. Even though it's not your natural tendency to get into conflict, money management is too important to let slide. If you do, you're as big a part of the problem as he is.


Hi unbelievable - I support everything in your post. In particular, I highlighted this part of it because of the following. Here is an example of my husband's way of thinking: when you said that we could go to a park to have free (and IMO high-quality) family time...I suggested one time that for a date night we just go for a walk so we can talk. There are some nice parks in our town where you can have privacy and nice views. He said "why pay money for a babysitter to go do something like that? I want to do something nice…" meaning that he wants to go to a movie (between $30-$50 with popcorn) or out to a nice dinner (maybe $50-$70) instead. And then the $35-$60 with the sitter costs. 

It just doesn't make sense to me!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Well, you're an equal partner. Just say no to the dinner/movie. In fact, drive the car when you go out, and drive to the park.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

A handy thing about marriage is that it gives us someone to fill in our gaps. Your husband may be materialistic and a little free with his money. Lucky for him, he married someone who is apparently stronger in that area. In my experience, anyway, it seems that the longer I live with my wife, the more like her I become and the more like me she becomes. If I married someone just like myself, I wouldn't have grown a bit. If she married someone like herself, they both would have killed each other by now. 

When your husband suggests doing something "nice", tell him nothing is nicer than spending time alone with him or with him and the kids. Keep at it and keep believing in him and in the marriage. Lots of people have money struggles. Meeting and conquering challenges is what makes people and relationships grow stronger. If you're honest about it, there are probably areas in which you are weak and he is stronger. I do wish you both the best. Try not to get too discouraged. Y'all can work this out.


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

I feel for you. My wife thinks that carrying a balance on her credit cards is fine as long as she makes the minimum payment. Argh!

That kind of thinking gets you in trouble fast. 

With her, I refer to prices of things in two ways: the cash price and the paid in full price which is how much it will cost after she takes a year to pay it off. Pisses her off, but what can you do. 

And I think that it has taken all of the fun out of using her credit cards. I don't really like doing that, but someone has to be responsible with money.


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## WaitingForChange (Jul 16, 2015)

unbelievable said:


> A handy thing about marriage is that it gives us someone to fill in our gaps. Your husband may be materialistic and a little free with his money. Lucky for him, he married someone who is apparently stronger in that area. In my experience, anyway, it seems that the longer I live with my wife, the more like her I become and the more like me she becomes. If I married someone just like myself, I wouldn't have grown a bit. If she married someone like herself, they both would have killed each other by now.
> 
> When your husband suggests doing something "nice", tell him nothing is nicer than spending time alone with him or with him and the kids. Keep at it and keep believing in him and in the marriage. Lots of people have money struggles. Meeting and conquering challenges is what makes people and relationships grow stronger. If you're honest about it, there are probably areas in which you are weak and he is stronger. I do wish you both the best. Try not to get too discouraged. Y'all can work this out.


This is an important post unbelievable. It is the case that if we did things completely my way, we would all be bored out of our brains, even if the bills were paid off… I am exaggerating a little but it's true that sometimes he pushes all of us to do more fun things than we would have. Just wish it didn't cost so much.

And, I just need to continue to talk to him. That is where my area of growth is, to be brave and strong even if I am fearful, and to stand up for what is important to me. I spent most of my life not doing that, and it's time for a change. 

I'll keep ya'll posted. So helpful this is. Thanks!


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## WaitingForChange (Jul 16, 2015)

VermisciousKnid said:


> ...I refer to prices of things in two ways: the cash price and the paid in full price which is how much it will cost after she takes a year to pay it off. Pisses her off, but what can you do. And I think that it has taken all of the fun out of using her credit cards.


 This is a really thing to think about - for both of us! 

Thanks for taking the time to post.


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

I'm late to the conversation but your situation sounds a lot like the one I had with my ex. Except he automatically had his whole paycheck deposited into our joint account. We are now divorced and one of the reasons is that he refused to have an adult conversation with me about money. But I also see my part in that was that I didn't have the backbone to say "no," or have boundaries around money, and from what you are saying, it sounds like you are the same. 

You say that you are living less than paycheck to paycheck, but your husband doesn't contribute all of his income to the family expenses and then insists on buying things that you can't afford. So, when he wants to buy a camera, how does he propose to purchase it? On a credit card? With the money he HAS contributed to the family income, or his own $400 slush fund that he gets every week? My ex and I argued about travelling from Washington State to the East coast to visit his family. He wanted to do that every other year and he didn't want to think about how we would pay for that. The first year, I gave in and most of the expense was on credit cards (that never got paid down.) But the next time it came up, I said I'd love to go visit his family as long as we had cash saved up to do it because I wasn't willing to use the credit cards. He accused me of not caring about his family, but I simply refused to do it. And since the credit cards were in my name, I had the power to do that. And you have that power too. Start saying "no" to things you know you can't afford. OR...since he has $400 a week to play with, insist that he pay for things out of that. 

And this...be okay with him getting mad at you. You need to decide what you can live with, and what you can't (those are your boundaries) and you need to stick to them. And you can do that calmly. "No" is a complete sentence and can be said very calmly, over and over and over, if you need to. Good luck.


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## WaitingForChange (Jul 16, 2015)

firebelly1 said:


> I'm late to the conversation but your situation sounds a lot like the one I had with my ex. Except he automatically had his whole paycheck deposited into our joint account. We are now divorced and one of the reasons is that he refused to have an adult conversation with me about money. But I also see my part in that was that I didn't have the backbone to say "no," or have boundaries around money, and from what you are saying, it sounds like you are the same.
> 
> You say that you are living less than paycheck to paycheck, but your husband doesn't contribute all of his income to the family expenses and then insists on buying things that you can't afford. So, when he wants to buy a camera, how does he propose to purchase it? On a credit card? With the money he HAS contributed to the family income, or his own $400 slush fund that he gets every week? My ex and I argued about travelling from Washington State to the East coast to visit his family. He wanted to do that every other year and he didn't want to think about how we would pay for that. The first year, I gave in and most of the expense was on credit cards (that never got paid down.) But the next time it came up, I said I'd love to go visit his family as long as we had cash saved up to do it because I wasn't willing to use the credit cards. He accused me of not caring about his family, but I simply refused to do it. And since the credit cards were in my name, I had the power to do that. And you have that power too. Start saying "no" to things you know you can't afford. OR...since he has $400 a week to play with, insist that he pay for things out of that.
> 
> And this...be okay with him getting mad at you. You need to decide what you can live with, and what you can't (those are your boundaries) and you need to stick to them. And you can do that calmly. "No" is a complete sentence and can be said very calmly, over and over and over, if you need to. Good luck.


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## WaitingForChange (Jul 16, 2015)

Thanks fire belly 1. This is exactly like my case. I feel like I have to be a mom to him; again, I am going to have to say: let's sit down - right now - and talk. Yesterday I gave him a list of our upcoming bills and when they are due and how much they are. He knows I have been wanting to talk. So, I guess it's also my job to say: Now. Let's talk. Now. 

I am really venting here. I do have a part in this, and that is mostly the lack of back bone to say that 2-letter word no. 

This all has to come to a head as we are supposed to leave next Saturday for a week's camping trip, and we literally don't have the money. Not even in credit balance available on credit cards.


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

WaitingForChange said:


> Thanks fire belly 1. This is exactly like my case. I feel like I have to be a mom to him; again, I am going to have to say: let's sit down - right now - and talk. Yesterday I gave him a list of our upcoming bills and when they are due and how much they are. He knows I have been wanting to talk. So, I guess it's also my job to say: Now. Let's talk. Now.
> 
> I am really venting here. I do have a part in this, and that is mostly the lack of back bone to say that 2-letter word no.
> 
> This all has to come to a head as we are supposed to leave next Saturday for a week's camping trip, and we literally don't have the money. Not even in credit balance available on credit cards.


If you have no money, how are you planning on paying for it? How can you go if you don't know how you're going to pay for it? I'm a little puzzled here. Are you hoping money will fall out of the sky? 

You don't have to mother your husband. Saying "no" isn't about him - it's about you because you are saying what you will and won't tolerate. If you go on a camping trip and have no money, YOU have decided that that's ok. It may feel like you are doing it for him, but if you say "yes" to it, then you are accountable too. Adults can have boundaries with each other and provide consequences for violated boundaries without it having the overtone of a parent and child. In the case of camping, it's just math. "Honey, we don't have the money to go on a camping trip." Zero equals zero.


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## WaitingForChange (Jul 16, 2015)

Hi all-

I learned a lesson today. As I have written, my main nemesis/weak spot these days is recognizing boundaries and then setting them. Knowing when something is bothering me, something is not right, or when I need something. Then evaluating if I can handle it myself, or if it involves someone else. Then actually saying something. 

I have been at the end of my rope in terms of talking about and dealing with finances with my husband. I think it was the end-ness of that rope, in the tone of my voice, that seemed to force my husband to react in a new way today when I said I needed his help to figure out: how we were going to pay our bills and how we were going to pay for our upcoming week off. 

I really believe that it was my conviction about the truth of the matter, that we can not do things the way we have been, and that it is not only ok but imperative that I say NO to certain things, that he cooperated today. I really was ready to bail if he did as in the past in being defensive, in changing the subject to being about political issues with his job or the economy… each time he started to go there I gently but firmly led the conversation back to how we are going to deal with the next 3 weeks. 

It seemed to work. We now have a plan for paying our current bills and going forward with the vacation we had planned. Our family is desperate for a change in routine, for a break from the pressures of daily life, and especially, to have adventure with our children. We both agreed that given our financial circumstances, it would be fine for us-two grownups to not go, but not ok to cancel, since we had promised our kids and they are so excited and talk about it every day. We do not want to set a precedent of changing such big plans unless we really did have to. We are going to make this work, with some very creative money shuffling.

I made it very clear that although I have had my part in the problems we face now, that I do not want it to be only my job to be the one to instigate money talks from here on out. I made it clear that he needs to be proactive in this or that it would not work for me. I made it clear that when we are back from vacation, we are going to change the way we do things, as what we have done so far is not working. 

I was impressed by his ability to keep calm and to not get defensive. He has been working hard on himself, and I think just needed a push and a firm line in the sand from me about enough being enough in terms of really facing our reality. 

So: all in all I feel better even though we have a lot to do and some very serious belt tightening in the coming year or two. I will do it anyway, and am hoping to have his partnership and support. We will see what happens. Thanks for your support; it was your responses and careful thinking about this that allowed me to move forward today.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Separate your finances *now*. As his spouse, you are responsible for 1/2 of any debt he accumulates, even if you divorce.

You own bank accounts, with a combined one to pay common bills like mortgage, utility bills, groceries, etc.

No shared credit cards. Have your own in your own name only. No joint cards. This won't be foolproof in separating your debt, but it will help if/when it comes to a split or he financially ruins the family.

Save, secretly. When you have accumulated enough, put it in a vehicle like a bond or fund in the name of a family member you trust who will give you the money later.

This is a train wreck coming your way. If you don't take action now you will be very, very sorry later.

Good luck.


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## ahakes (Jul 19, 2015)

My H sounds a little like yours, and while I'm still trying to figure out how to help him understand that forgoing things like cameras and trips now will be worth it in the long run and commit to saving, there have been a handful of moments that were we have seen some success! One thing I tried that worked for him is this: he wanted to buy a game. something that wasn't too expensive but more frivolous than we needed then. I knew that there was a paintballing trip coming up that was more expensive, sure, but was something that, if we saved for, would be nice for him to have. I also knew how badly he wanted to go. I reminded him of this, told him that the thirty dollars he spent here, could be thirty dollars in paint later, and encouraged him to take the money And keep it for the thing he really wanted. Because he wanted the other thing more it was easy for him to agree. 
This doesn't necisarliy help immediately, but you've gotten some really good advice for that. This is something that would be helpful more long term. Replacing a destructive habit with a productive habit is the key to change. Doing this trade off teaches a few helpful concepts
1. Is there something to me that's worth more than this?
2. If I save now I can really have later. 
Most importantly it taught those concepts in a way my H could understand as well as one that made him excited to wait. You know your husband, use that to your advantage! And remember that everyone learns in their own way!


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

WaitingForChange said:


> I made it very clear that although I have had my part in the problems we face now, that I do not want it to be only my job to be the one to instigate money talks from here on out. I made it clear that he needs to be proactive in this or that it would not work for me. I made it clear that when we are back from vacation, we are going to change the way we do things, as what we have done so far is not working.
> 
> I was impressed by his ability to keep calm and to not get defensive. He has been working hard on himself, and I think just needed a push and a firm line in the sand from me about enough being enough in terms of really facing our reality.


All of this sounds like progress, and I'm happy for you that you were able to have a productive conversation. But if I were you, I would also be prepared to do whatever you need to do whether he cooperates or not. You can tell him that he needs to be proactive, but you have no control over that. And...your tone is interesting. You've said you don't want to mother him, but your tone sounds scolding.


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## WaitingForChange (Jul 16, 2015)

sapientia said:


> Separate your finances *now*. As his spouse, you are responsible for 1/2 of any debt he accumulates, even if you divorce.
> 
> You own bank accounts, with a combined one to pay common bills like mortgage, utility bills, groceries, etc.
> 
> ...


Hey Sapientia…. Thanks for your comments. Do you feel, given my more hopeful post of yesterday, that people like my husband are beyond the possibility of change? I do wonder about this; as hopeful as I want to stay, I also don't want to put (keep?) my head in the sand about the reality of our situation. I have saved tiny amounts in the last few months but I mean tiny.

We do mostly have separate accounts (esp. credit cards) but we share a joint membership at the credit union, with joint checking and savings account. Its the former we use for paying monthly bills.


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## WaitingForChange (Jul 16, 2015)

firebelly1 said:


> All of this sounds like progress, and I'm happy for you that you were able to have a productive conversation. But if I were you, I would also be prepared to do whatever you need to do whether he cooperates or not. You can tell him that he needs to be proactive, but you have no control over that. And...your tone is interesting. You've said you don't want to mother him, but your tone sounds scolding.


Hi again Firebelly-

It's true, that I can't make him be proactive. And certainly we have had similar conversations that have not turned up change in the past. 

It's good to know that my tone comes across scolding. I am not sure if that is how I came across to him when we talked face to face, but I can see how you would perceive that. We went to a marriage counselor for a few months 18 months ago, when we were separated for 2 months. He was trying to get us to be better communicators but I am not sure I have a handle on it yet. I will watch for my tone carefully the next time this comes up, as I certainly don't mean to scold. I just really want things to change for the better. 

Thanks!


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

WaitingForChange said:


> Hey Sapientia…. Thanks for your comments. Do you feel, given my more hopeful post of yesterday, that people like my husband are beyond the possibility of change? I do wonder about this; as hopeful as I want to stay, I also don't want to put (keep?) my head in the sand about the reality of our situation. I have saved tiny amounts in the last few months but I mean tiny.
> 
> We do mostly have separate accounts (esp. credit cards) but we share a joint membership at the credit union, with joint checking and savings account. Its the former we use for paying monthly bills.


Past behaviour is the best predictor of the future. Don't let your hope for change blind you to what is. Protect yourself.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

To avoid coming across as scolding, IMO, the best approach is to say 'I want you to be on the same team as me; but if that's not your way of doing it, that's cool; I'll just go ahead and separate my finances to protect myself from your choices. It's up to you, I'd rather we do this together, but if you don't want to, we'll just keep it separate.'


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

WFC, your tone sounds serious and desperate which is okay because you are on a precipice, financially speaking. You will have to be the one to lead your husband away from the precipice and I think you can do it without scolding. 

You need a budget and a plan to get to a better position, and an agreement from him to stick to the plan. There's no scolding involved in that. 

I think that your H could change his ways somewhat if he sees that following the plan makes things better. But some people have trouble with self discipline and are more impulsive so it might be hard for him to stick to the plan.


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## WaitingForChange (Jul 16, 2015)

VermisciousKnid said:


> WFC, your tone sounds serious and desperate which is okay because you are on a precipice, financially speaking. You will have to be the one to lead your husband away from the precipice and I think you can do it without scolding.
> 
> You need a budget and a plan to get to a better position, and an agreement from him to stick to the plan. There's no scolding involved in that.
> 
> I think that your H could change his ways somewhat if he sees that following the plan makes things better. But some people have trouble with self discipline and are more impulsive so it might be hard for him to stick to the plan.


Hey VK - thanks for appreciating my position. It's interesting that you use the word "impulsive" as the therapist I was seeing for months around the time of our separation used that (and "compulsive") to describe my husband. I do think that even though we had a good conversation that day recently, I need to be on my guard and planning like ya'll are talking about. For e.g., just yesterday he was talking about buying a 'hitch lock' since we are taking our bikes on our camping trip, and apparently someone could 'steal the whole hitch along with the bikes.' I asked him how much they cost and he said 'they are not that expensive'. I am writing about this b/c I think it's a perfect example of impulsive/compulsive spending - even though we just talked about arranging every penny for making it over this next few weeks, he adds this into the 'budget'. I don't think he makes the connection between what we talked about and day-to-day thinking about what he wants to buy. 

I am hoping beyond hope that it's a habit he can change.


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

WaitingForChange said:


> Hey VK - thanks for appreciating my position. It's interesting that you use the word "impulsive" as the therapist I was seeing for months around the time of our separation used that (and "compulsive") to describe my husband. I do think that even though we had a good conversation that day recently, I need to be on my guard and planning like ya'll are talking about. For e.g., just yesterday he was talking about buying a 'hitch lock' since we are taking our bikes on our camping trip, and apparently someone could 'steal the whole hitch along with the bikes.' I asked him how much they cost and he said 'they are not that expensive'. I am writing about this b/c I think it's a perfect example of impulsive/compulsive spending - even though we just talked about arranging every penny for making it over this next few weeks, he adds this into the 'budget'. I don't think he makes the connection between what we talked about and day-to-day thinking about what he wants to buy.
> 
> I am hoping beyond hope that it's a habit he can change.


He has to go from a credit mindset to a budget mindset. The credit mindset gives priority to wants. That's impulsive thinking and cost isn't the number one consideration. The budget mindset gives priority to needs. You only get what you need and price is a big consideration. 

His description of the cost of the hitch lock as 'not that expensive' indicates in-between thinking to me. He's assessing the cost but not the impact to the budget. He needs to be familiar with the impact.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Have you looked up Dave Ramsey's stuff yet? Go on his website and start using his materials. It will really help.


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## WaitingForChange (Jul 16, 2015)

turnera said:


> Have you looked up Dave Ramsey's stuff yet? Go on his website and start using his materials. It will really help.


I am a HUGE Dave Ramsey fan, and have several of his books. I just need to get my husband on board…. we need "gazelle intensity" to pay off debt and get out of this mess! 

Thanks turnera!


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

Both you and your husband need to weigh things out according to risk. For example, if your husband catastrophically gets injured/ill or loses his job, what are your plans? Do you have emergency $$ saved up?

How much debt are you in? Consider what your budget would look like if you had zero debt. How much freed up money would there be to put into savings, kids' college, and vacation...if you didn't have to pay it towards debt anymore? What is it going to take to be free of debt?

Do you need to move? Rent/housing should only be 25% of income. Extra jobs? Sell car and buy a cheaper one...using extra cash to throw at debt. Are you willing to cut cards now? If not, if you had 3 to 6 months worth of cash saved up...would you feel safe to cut cards then? If not, WHY????

Don't be guilted into dropping your boundaries. Yes, you are trying not to lose your cool and it is important to do that, but still don't allow your husband to create these situations where you feel guilty for saying NO. Tell him to take his @$$ and return that $400 gift card. He is trying to buck the boundaries and make you feel bad enough to give in...because "*gasp* I WAS ONLY trying to do something nice for you!!" My wife did the same thing to guilt me enough to say anything against her binge spending.

If you need to make a scene, make a flipping scene. If you are mad enough to threaten divorce over this, then THREATEN DIVORCE. This isn't playing house, this is reality...and right now economics has you over a barrell unless some serious behavior changes. Put on your big-girl pants and say NO. Husband needs to put on his big boys pants and wake up.

Play time needs to go bye-bye for a while, unless it is FREE. Sell stuff, make drastic changes...do it now, before something happens and you are forced to go bankrupt, move in with family, and start to have to give plasma every week.

You can do it!!


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## pb76no (Nov 1, 2012)

WFC,

It may not be feasible (from his standpoint), but it sounds like you need to handle all the finances. His FULL paycheck goes to your (or joint) account - no credit cards in his name. You control all the finances. You can stress that decisions are still done together, but he doesn't seem to have any self control. So until he does, it needs to be in your hands or as others have said, separate your finances completely.

The financial road you're on is not really a road, it is a downward spiral and very difficult to get out of. But it sounds like you have the right financial understanding to do it.

Good luck.


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## 3kgtmitsu (Jul 28, 2012)

Some good advice here, hang in there, and yes Dave Ramsey's teachings can likely save your financial well being if he is willing to listen.

I was a lot like that in the past, I was spoiled as a kid and was used to getting my way, as an adult I screwed up my credit because using credit is a way to get what you really cannot afford, and my parents were enabling me to do this because they would bail me out when I would make a mistake. Deep down it was also because I felt like a failure and the thought of having a cool car or nice clothes made me feel better temporarily. The best thing they did was cut me off, I spent a few years just barely making it and worked long and hard to dig myself out of the hole I was in, and I spend a lot of years having to re-learn how to deal with money, its a life long process. I hardly even have a credit score anymore, I just save and buy these days if its something I really want.

Another thing, is if he wants some new gadget or toy, that's perfectly fine, but encourage him to save and get it..a little extra hard work and elbow grease will change your perspective, and that cool gadget may not even seem so important when he looks back at all of the extra hours he put in to make it possible. 

Stay far away from credit if at all possible, I would not assist in any way helping him get credit for anything. I personally feel that having good credit is not the end all be all in life, it just shows that your good at borrowing money.


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## Spitfire (Jun 6, 2015)

WaitingForChange said:


> Hi turnera; I would like to try something like this, but how can we separate the oh-so-many shared expenses like mortgage, insurance, food, utilities, etc? He gives me some, but not all, of his checks each month. He probably gives me $700 a week average when he brings home $1100.


So He's pocketing $400 a week on average? Where does this money go? I make it on $15 a week for pocket money.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

For starters, cut up all the credit cards. If they are destroyed, you can't use them. Pay for any purchases with cash.

If he gave you the extra $1600 per month (you mentioned he holds back $400 a week) would you have enough to cover all of your bills and start digging your way out of the debt?

If so, this is a no-brainer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## fat_moe (Jul 29, 2015)

It's time to stop ****ing around. You are in debt and have two dependent children. That is a LOT of responsibility. Cut up the credit cards. No more eating out, no more luxuries like computers and cameras. Groceries should be off-brand. No $5.00 jars of peanut butter. No $8.00 bottles of shampoo. VO5 is a dollar a bottle.

My ultimate suggestion would be getting the hell away from San Francisco and relocating to a city with a lower cost of living.


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## stevehowefan (Apr 3, 2013)

fat_moe said:


> It's time to stop ****ing around. You are in debt and have two dependent children. That is a LOT of responsibility. Cut up the credit cards. No more eating out, no more luxuries like computers and cameras. Groceries should be off-brand. No $5.00 jars of peanut butter. No $8.00 bottles of shampoo. VO5 is a dollar a bottle.
> 
> My ultimate suggestion would be getting the hell away from San Francisco and relocating to a city with a lower cost of living.


I second moving away, but I am not from California. It may be the same all over.


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