# Asked to see phone and he said trust him...



## BeenThereAndSuffering (Mar 12, 2012)

My H had a EA w/ kissing so I guess that would be a PA, anyways, something told me he was still talking to her so I asked to see his cell phone to ease my mind and he said that I needed to learn to forgive and trust him and wouldn't let me see the phone...well when he went to bed he put his phone on charge and hid it under the sofa, I went through it and all texts had been deleted and also the call logs...as we have prepaid phones there is no way for me to see the deleted logs, I need help on what to do as things had been slowly getting better...do I really need to trust him and this is what he is trying to tell me or is he really hiding the fact that he has broken no contact...


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

BeenThereAndSuffering said:


> My H had a EA w/ kissing so I guess that would be a PA, anyways, something told me he was still talking to her so I asked to see his cell phone to ease my mind and he said that I needed to learn to forgive and trust him and wouldn't let me see the phone...well when he went to bed he put his phone on charge and hid it under the sofa, I went through it and all texts had been deleted and also the call logs...as we have prepaid phones there is no way for me to see the deleted logs, I need help on what to do as things had been slowly getting better...do I really need to trust him and this is what he is trying to tell me or is he really hiding the fact that he has broken no contact...


Sorry. Theres a reason the texts and log was deleted. Had he not contacted her he would have given you the
Phone to show you hes not lying. I know from personal experiemce.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

You are in denial and you know it


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

There is no reason for you to trust him. Deleting the phone logs is, IMHO, the same as finding texts between them. Hiding the phone is even more proof of guilt. There is only one reason to hide something... it's because he has something to hide.

You do not need for forget and trust. He needs to bend over backwards to prove to you that he is trust worthy.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Sadly I must agree with Lifestyle.

There are only two possibilities here.

1) He has broken NC and is hiding the fact that they went further underground.

2) He's trying to play some game with you in order to force you to trust him.

If its #1 then that obviously speaks for itself.

If its #2 then he is being extremely disrespectful toward you and your feelings. That does not indicate true remorse and a willingness to continue rebuilding your relationship.

Either way you are not wrong for being suspicious. Trust your gut.


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## cupcake130 (Mar 18, 2012)

I was on his side til he hid it under the couch. No beuno!! Sorry..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mikel (Mar 18, 2012)

K. I'm a guy.. try to give my best advise here.... I'm not sure I understood your post. but gotta say I think I agree with the eligirl on this one.....If he's not handing over the goods...ther is a reason..... on the other hand... it takes distrust to ask for the goods..... sorry for my lack of advise...... but i do tend to side with the one who realizes ther is an issue.... good luck!!!!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Mikel said:


> K. I'm a guy.. try to give my best advise here.... I'm not sure I understood your post. but gotta say I think I agree with the eligirl on this one.....If he's not handing over the goods...ther is a reason..... on the other hand... it takes distrust to ask for the goods..... sorry for my lack of advise...... but i do tend to side with the one who realizes ther is an issue.... good luck!!!!


And she does have a reason to mistrust him... his affair. It takes a WS a long time to prove to a BS that they are no longer pursuing thier affair partner and can be trusted.


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## BeenThereAndSuffering (Mar 12, 2012)

When he was having EA he had her listed as his dad so when i checked his phone of course i wasnt interested in what him and his dad was talking about...I think I will go through his contacts and see if he is hiding her number and change her name to I WANT A DIVORCE so when she calls or texts he will see it as I WANT A DIVORCE and know that I know...is that a good idea?


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

BeenThereAndSuffering said:


> When he was having EA he had her listed as his dad so when i checked his phone of course i wasnt interested in what him and his dad was talking about...I think I will go through his contacts and see if he is hiding her number and change her name to I WANT A DIVORCE so when she calls or texts he will see it as I WANT A DIVORCE and know that I know...is that a good idea?


Nice one! I like it!

Edit: I just told that to my wife Morrigan. She looked up from her book, smiled and said "Beautiful"


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## golfergirl (Dec 8, 2010)

BeenThereAndSuffering said:


> When he was having EA he had her listed as his dad so when i checked his phone of course i wasnt interested in what him and his dad was talking about...I think I will go through his contacts and see if he is hiding her number and change her name to I WANT A DIVORCE so when she calls or texts he will see it as I WANT A DIVORCE and know that I know...is that a good idea?


I'm impressed! That would be effective
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mikel (Mar 18, 2012)

K. I'd like to think that I need to sobber up before i GIVE U any advise..... but , like it or not, I'm still siding with eligrl.


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## sunshinetoday (Mar 7, 2012)

I love the idea of changing the name in his phone!! Wish I had thought of that. Also if he is not handing the phone right over....as he should now since what happened before....you know there is something on there he doesn't want you to see. Don't be in denial. It will make you want to kick yourself later....take it from someone who has been there.

_-- Sent from my Palm Pixi using Forums_


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## BeenThereAndSuffering (Mar 12, 2012)

You all made me laugh at the positive re-enforcement...feels good to smile and even laugh...thanks..and I really am going to see if he has her listed as someone else and change it...rather suffer the pain one time than keep repeating it......


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## square1 (Oct 31, 2011)

My Husband had a texting habit with multiple women. He still says it wasn't an EA with any of them (but the conversations weren't just friendly hi how are you. It was him discussing our problems looking for comfort etc never got sexual though) during this time he got really possessive over his phone I got the 20 question interrogation if I was within 2 feet of his phone. Now if he so much as gives me a weird look as i walk by his phone oh I'm going threw it and lord help him if I find something or he deleted anything (I still check the phone bill so i know if he texts them since he works with a couple of them) So no texts in the phone but the number is on the bill spells trouble for him.


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## BeenThereAndSuffering (Mar 12, 2012)

I wish we had a bill and not on a prepaid plan......my H started out as friends talking about relationship woes but then led to emotional attachment and he swears they only kissed....I wish he would tell me everything..


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

Do you now believe that he had only EA and only kissing her? Time to do some spade work.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

The only reason to delete the text messages and call log and the only reason to hide the phone is because he's been up to something he wants to hide from you. You don't need to actuallly read the texts and you don't need an itemized bill. The fact that he hides his phone, refuses to show you his phone activity, and erases this information ought to tell you all you need to know.
People who act in a sneaky way have forfeited the expectation of trust.


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## Mrs. T (Aug 5, 2011)

BeenThereAndSuffering said:


> When he was having EA he had her listed as his dad so when i checked his phone of course i wasnt interested in what him and his dad was talking about...I think I will go through his contacts and see if he is hiding her number and change her name to I WANT A DIVORCE so when she calls or texts he will see it as I WANT A DIVORCE and know that I know...is that a good idea?


 :smthumbup::iagree::rofl: That is perfect!!


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## Mrs. T (Aug 5, 2011)

Unfortunately I think its pretty clear that he is still talking to her. He is giving you that line about needing to trust him to throw you off the track. If he is hiding his phone and deleting messages he's still in contact with her. He's not giving you much reason to trust him but a whole lot of ammunition to think he's a liar.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

How do you know if a text/phone call has been deleted ?


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## Know_Buddy (Mar 13, 2012)

BeenThereAndSuffering said:


> When he was having EA he had her listed as his dad so when i checked his phone of course i wasnt interested in what him and his dad was talking about...I think I will go through his contacts and see if he is hiding her number and change her name to I WANT A DIVORCE so when she calls or texts he will see it as I WANT A DIVORCE and know that I know...is that a good idea?


change it so when she calls or texts it shows '[email protected]'.
also, if the phone verbally says the name out loud, it would say 'call from [email protected]'.


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## BeenThereAndSuffering (Mar 12, 2012)

@Know Buddy....lol.......
@CHapparal..I know because there were no texts in his inbox or outbox and no incoming or outgoing calls in his call log.

On another note..before their affair became I guess a PA because they were kissing and hugging, they were friends and I knew about it and was comfortable because there seemed to be no attraction, but when she started having probs at home and we started having probs in our home then they went to each other...I must add that the OW man committed suicide.. due to the affair? maybe, he took his life 2 days after one of their co-workers let the cat out of the bag, he admitted to me last night that no contact has been broken one time he said and that it was her texting him to let him know she was coming back to town (her spouse was from other state so family had funeral and burial in home state), I asked him why she would need to tell him this and he said he thought it was so he would know she was ok with everything..he says that he loves me and I need to trust him no matter how hard it is, says he will continue to talk to her at work since they have to work together and that nothing more than friends will ever come of it again, I asked how he could ask so much of me since they have already proven they couldnt be just friends and he said because he knows what he wants and its me and the kids and he wants our marriage to work and that he is not going to allow anyone to come between that again and he feels that with her history (drugs, etc) she may try to hurt herself and he couldn't live with hisself knowing he was the reason that she did it or that her husband did it and that he needs to be there for her til things calm down a bit.....I told him that it was a problem that he was putting her needs before mine and our family and he said no that being her friend was protecting us because if he had to live with more regret he wouldn't be worth anything to us anymore because he would be mentally and emotionally screwed up....any help on this please...


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

BeenThereAndSuffering said:


> @Know Buddy....lol.......
> @CHapparal..I know because there were no texts in his inbox or outbox and no incoming or outgoing calls in his call log.
> 
> On another note..before their affair became I guess a PA because they were kissing and hugging, they were friends and I knew about it and was comfortable because there seemed to be no attraction, but when she started having probs at home and we started having probs in our home then they went to each other...I must add that the OW man committed suicide.. due to the affair? maybe, he took his life 2 days after one of their co-workers let the cat out of the bag, he admitted to me last night that no contact has been broken one time he said and that it was her texting him to let him know she was coming back to town (her spouse was from other state so family had funeral and burial in home state), I asked him why she would need to tell him this and he said he thought it was so he would know she was ok with everything..he says that he loves me and I need to trust him no matter how hard it is, says he will continue to talk to her at work since they have to work together and that nothing more than friends will ever come of it again, I asked how he could ask so much of me since they have already proven they couldnt be just friends and he said because he knows what he wants and its me and the kids and he wants our marriage to work and that he is not going to allow anyone to come between that again and he feels that with her history (drugs, etc) she may try to hurt herself and he couldn't live with hisself knowing he was the reason that she did it or that her husband did it and that he needs to be there for her til things calm down a bit.....I told him that it was a problem that he was putting her needs before mine and our family and he said no that being her friend was protecting us because if he had to live with more regret he wouldn't be worth anything to us anymore because he would be mentally and emotionally screwed up....any help on this please...


He's making excuses to stay in contact with her. They haven't gone NC at all. They just cooled things off for a while. My opinion is you need to start playing hardball with him. Don't accept his excuses or explanations. Demand openness and honesty at all times.

My wife was the one that had an affair 20 years ago. We are still open with each other. I have access to her Facebook page, email, cell phone etc. She has access to all of mine as well. _And I didn't have the affair._ She has done nothing wrong in 20 years. We are going to restate our vows this year on our 30th anniversary. I still check her phone and Facebook. She checks mine. There is no privacy in a marriage. *When you marry two become one.* That's it. No games. If your husband can't understand this then you have to make him understand it. *I don't feel anything negative when my wife checks my cell phone. Why should your husband feel threatened if you do?*


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

You are letting him manipulate you. You are engaging in wishful thinking. He has worn you down emotionally and it is easier to believe him and not fight than to call him out on his obvious lies.

I read your other posts. He had sex with her. He is still in contact with her. ALL OF HIS WORDS ARE LIES. BELIEVE ONLY HIS ACTIONS. What is the difference right now between the actions he is taking to show you he has ceased contact and the actions a cheater would take to hide continued contact? None.

He should be trying to prove to you he's not had contact, not doing things to "test" whether or not you trust him (phone under couch).

Why would they limit their physical contact to just kissing and hugging when they had ample time and privacy to take it further? Answer: They wouldn't. His story doesn't make any sense. His actions don't make any sense. Well, they make sense for someone who is cheating, remaining in contact, and lying about it, but not for what he is telling you.

Tell him you will file for divorce unless he meets your conditions, which are: full disclosure of the details of the affair, transparency (access to devices, passwords), and remorse. It's time to get off your prepaid phone plan and get a plan where you can track him. 

I don't know what you're going to do about him working with her, but accepting the status quo is a recipe for continued contact and affair.


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## Mrs. T (Aug 5, 2011)

BeenThereAndSuffering said:


> *he feels that with her history (drugs, etc) she may try to hurt herself and he couldn't live with hisself knowing he was the reason that she did it or that her husband did it and that he needs to be there for her til things calm down a bit*.....I told him that it was a problem that he was putting her needs before mine and our family and *he said no that being her friend was protecting us because if he had to live with more regret he wouldn't be worth anything to us anymore because he would be mentally and emotionally screwed up*....any help on this please...


 OMG...he's trying to get you to agree to let him continue to contact her by giving *you* a guilt trip. He needs to be there for her _my ass._ What a line of crap..."how would I live with myself if she hurt herself because of me...blah blah blah. So in essence if you deny him the ability to talk to her and something happens then you are to blame. I call BS on that one!!


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## BeenThereAndSuffering (Mar 12, 2012)

I am just a wreck right now, I really am...I do not want to give up on my marriage, but he is starting to make it hard, he says that if we can't trust each other we don't need to be together, but the trust takes time to rebuild, am I right? Told me that I am going to have to get over it and move on because now he is tired of me bringing it up everyday, that I have to just trust him, says he has to have his me time without me butting in worrying who he is talking to and where he has been... just trust him.........aaahhhhhhh...I want to scream.......


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## square1 (Oct 31, 2011)

BeenThereAndSuffering said:


> I am just a wreck right now, I really am...I do not want to give up on my marriage, but he is starting to make it hard, he says that if we can't trust each other we don't need to be together, but the trust takes time to rebuild, am I right? Told me that I am going to have to get over it and move on because now he is tired of me bringing it up everyday, that I have to just trust him, says he has to have his me time without me butting in worrying who he is talking to and where he has been... just trust him.........aaahhhhhhh...I want to scream.......


It does take time to rebuild. Sometimes a long time, varies from person to person. 

Just trust him my arse he doesn't seem to be doing anything to rebuild the trust bridge he blew up with his EA/PA. He does seem to be tossing more grenades at it to prevent new construction though. He needs to be an open book for you and allow an all access Pass to whatever YOU deem necessary to rebuild your trusted relationship with him. If he isn't willing to do this tell him a divorce is on the way. You cannot stay in a marriage like this always wondering, it will eat you alive.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

This man is so manipulative, he hasn't gotten over her and he's giving you pathetic excuses to stay in contact. I'm actually baffled that she would even remain in contact with him after they caused her husband's suicide. The two of them are cold hearted individuals, frankly murderers in my eyes.


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## BeenThereAndSuffering (Mar 12, 2012)

I think she sees it that now he is out of the way she can be with my husband, she manipulated that man so bad...and now she has her meaty hooks in my husband and has him torn between her or me...it hurts....I really wished he would quit his job or find another but when I mentioned it earlier he just ignored me I think, if he wasn't around her so much I think the contact would decrease then dissipitate...I dunno how do you talk to someone like him and make him understand without pushing him further toward her and/or making him more upset?


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

Your husband is a grown individual who has a wife at home, she hasn't manipulated anyone. He went into this willingly and is choosing to prioritize her over you. The fact your husband would even consider being with a woman who's infidelity lead to the suicide of her ex is scary to say the least. 

He's starting to use reverse psychology with all the "we shouldn't be together if you can't trust me" talk. He's not even fighting for you. A person in his position would go above and beyond to show you his remorse but ironically it seems as if he's made you the one desperately clinging to keep him.


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

BeenThereAndSuffering said:


> I think she sees it that now he is out of the way she can be with my husband, she manipulated that man so bad...and now she has her meaty hooks in my husband and has him torn between her or me...it hurts....I really wished he would quit his job or find another but when I mentioned it earlier he just ignored me I think, if he wasn't around her so much I think the contact would decrease then dissipitate...I dunno how do you talk to someone like him and make him understand without pushing him further toward her and/or making him more upset?


How do you deal with this? It is hard.

You suspect and he wants you to trust. He does not want to go NC with her. She has a history...that worries you.

I suggest you to now act as if things are normal. But continue to be vigilant. 

Someone earlier here asked, how do you know that he has been deleting texts and call history?

As I said earlier, you did not know if the A was a PA. Do some investigative work. Then confront.

I think he is choosing her over you....But you need to confirm. Stay vigilant.


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## BeenThereAndSuffering (Mar 12, 2012)

How do I get to the truth and how do I get my proof? How do I stop all of this?


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

There are many threads here about finding out the affair. Take time to go through.

Easiest is to hire a PI, I dont know if you could afford. Of course there are many other ways to do. Like monitoring his cell phone, VARs.

Stopping the affair? He has to get the shock of threat of D after you collect the evidences and confront him. 

Are you very dependent of him?


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## BeenThereAndSuffering (Mar 12, 2012)

I will admit I am very dependent of him and have been pulling myself out of that habit...I can't monitor his cellphone because we are on a prepaid plan and he deletes all his texts and call logs...says to trust him..I thought about a PI but not sure if I could afford one but its worth looking into..I will check the other threads for more ideas since I am not getting any sleep tonight just to many emotions and thoughts flooding the brain right now... : (


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

Now, take care of yourself.

I know it is painful.

Consult your doctor for your anxiety, depression, sleeplessness and what not.

Take a deep breath....


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Trust is something you earn, and blindly trusting someone who's broken your trust is foolish. IMHO.

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BeenThereAndSuffering (Mar 12, 2012)

This may sound a little crazed but do you think it would be wrong of me to out them both to the head of the company? It could result in my husbands termination and at this point that is a risk I am willing to take but it may be the necessary eye opener he needs to see that this not only destroyed his marriage and family but his life since he no longer has employment and may get his but on the move to realizing what his decisions has cost us..


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Yes, I think that's crazy without any proof. You'll possibly destroy his livelihood and his ability to support your family. And what good would it do you?

Have you gone through any marriage counseling? Have you talked about transparency, and what you need from him to rebuild your trust in him? I think you need to step back to the basics, and figure out what YOU need to recover from his affair. Then lay out your boundaries, and enforce them. Running off willy-nilly with no plan is just going to blow things up with nobody but the divorce lawyers benefiting from it.

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Humble Pie (Feb 28, 2012)

BeenThereAndSuffering said:


> @Know Buddy....lol.......
> @CHapparal..I know because there were no texts in his inbox or outbox and no incoming or outgoing calls in his call log.
> 
> On another note..before their affair became I guess a PA because they were kissing and hugging, they were friends and I knew about it and was comfortable because there seemed to be no attraction, but when she started having probs at home and we started having probs in our home then they went to each other...I must add that the OW man committed suicide.. due to the affair? maybe, he took his life 2 days after one of their co-workers let the cat out of the bag, he admitted to me last night that no contact has been broken one time he said and that it was her texting him to let him know she was coming back to town (her spouse was from other state so family had funeral and burial in home state), I asked him why she would need to tell him this and he said he thought it was so he would know she was ok with everything..he says that he loves me and I need to trust him no matter how hard it is, says he will continue to talk to her at work since they have to work together and that nothing more than friends will ever come of it again, I asked how he could ask so much of me since they have already proven they couldnt be just friends and he said because he knows what he wants and its me and the kids and he wants our marriage to work and that he is not going to allow anyone to come between that again and he feels that with her history (drugs, etc) she may try to hurt herself and he couldn't live with hisself knowing he was the reason that she did it or that her husband did it and that he needs to be there for her til things calm down a bit.....I told him that it was a problem that he was putting her needs before mine and our family and he said no that being her friend was protecting us because if he had to live with more regret he wouldn't be worth anything to us anymore because he would be mentally and emotionally screwed up....any help on this please...


Sorry I have a question...

To me he is justifying his contact with her due to her unstability. Ok fine, lets assume this is true for the benefit of the doubt.

My question is... if you are his wife, why are you not being allowed to help your husband's friend in her situation with support and advise also? Why are you being hidden from their communication that is solely there to provide emotional support to this woman who lost her husband recently and has a history of drug usage. 

I don't know, if my wife has a friend that has "issues" she talks about it with me and asks my advice and we show support "together" towards that person. 

Just seems suspicious that he wants to help his friend but isn't involving you. does that make any sense?


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## Humble Pie (Feb 28, 2012)

BeenThereAndSuffering said:


> I am just a wreck right now, I really am...I do not want to give up on my marriage, but he is starting to make it hard, he says that if we can't trust each other we don't need to be together, but the trust takes time to rebuild, am I right? Told me that I am going to have to get over it and move on because now he is tired of me bringing it up everyday, that I have to just trust him, says he has to have his me time without me butting in worrying who he is talking to and where he has been... just trust him.........aaahhhhhhh...I want to scream.......


hell I can understand he wanting his "my time without butting it" but he cheated!! all that is lost when you are an unfaithful spouse.


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## BeenThereAndSuffering (Mar 12, 2012)

Your questions to me makes sense but to my husband would be me "butting" into his business, he would say I need to trust him and that he doesn't want me to make contact because he would be afraid I would blow up and show my a$$......


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## Humble Pie (Feb 28, 2012)

now you are making excuses for your husband! 

How is showing your support (true support without any bitterness) towards his friend in her difficult time "butting into HIS business"? Isnt it her business, and if she allows him to be involved that should include you too!


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

He's the one that demonstrated poor judgement in the past, and that comes with a price. And now he's calling your bluff and winning.

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BeenThereAndSuffering (Mar 12, 2012)

Help me, tell me what to do to be strong and please help me woman up and stand up for myself...this is hard to do on my own..I make threats and don't follow through..what is the best way to convince yourself to follow through? And what is the best way to process the pain?


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

BeenThereAndSuffering said:


> Help me, tell me what to do to be strong and please help me woman up and stand up for myself...this is hard to do on my own..I make threats and don't follow through..what is the best way to convince yourself to follow through? And what is the best way to process the pain?


Do 180.

Someone, please post the links.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

BeenThereAndSuffering said:


> Help me, tell me what to do to be strong and please help me woman up and stand up for myself...this is hard to do on my own..I make threats and don't follow through..what is the best way to convince yourself to follow through? And what is the best way to process the pain?


The reason you can't follow thru is that you're still so codependent on him. Follow the 180 guidelines. The purpose of the 180 is not to get him back or to manipulate him. The 180 is a tool to help YOU detach so that you will be able to go on, with, or without him. 

He's already used to calling your bluff, which is why he can rug sweep so much. He's refusing to be transparent, which means that he's still in contact with the OW. He needs to be truly remorseful.










You need to file for D.


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## Ingalls (Mar 7, 2012)

I would agree he hasn't stopped with the OW. If he had the logs wouldn't be deleted. He has to make a physical effort to delete those logs...so he is hiding truth. Everyone is different but I wouldn't want or need to know if anything beyond kissing happened bc kissing is enough and is wrong. 

Someone explain "when" to do the 180? Is it something during R and your both working-or if it's just if the WS isn't being remorseful, transparent, etc? I'm a little confused on that...
Thanks!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WeDoExist (Mar 6, 2012)

Remind him that seeing the records will make you feel better. If he has nothing to hide, then this should not be a problem.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

There can be no True R without full transparency. Always remember that.


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## naperken (Feb 21, 2012)

Beowulf said:


> He's making excuses to stay in contact with her. They haven't gone NC at all. They just cooled things off for a while. My opinion is you need to start playing hardball with him. Don't accept his excuses or explanations. Demand openness and honesty at all times.


This^^

The EA/PA is an addiction, he will say/do anything to keep the contact going, even if he's remotely inclined to reconcile. My wife used the same, "I'm afraid what he'll do to himself if I completely break-off contact" line on me. Some of it was her addiction, but a good part was him playing mind-games to keep connected.


If he is serious about working it out, this is an absolute must-read for him:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/38097-hes-back-facebook-4.html#post548641

My wife was very confused and unsure how to support me. After read this, she told me she understood completely now, and it's been much, much better.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

BeenThereAndSuffering said:


> How do I get to the truth and how do I get my proof? How do I stop all of this?


You already know the truth and you already have the proof.

All you need is the courage to have him served and the strength to demand your boundaries be met if he decides to get in line.

He's lying, manipulating, & bull****ting you and you know it
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

The 180 means you have to change your behaviours 180 degrees from what you're doing now, which isn't working. The 180 recognises that you can't change your husband's behaviour. Only he can do that. You only control your behaviour. And the only way you can hope to influence your husband is by adjusting your behaviour in response to him.

Right now, your husband gets all the advantages of a wife and mother to his children while simultaneously getting some action on the side. You have accepted this, so he has little incentive to change. Yes, you're upset. And you tell him you're upset. But he obviously doesn't care very much if you're upset.

However, if you start the 180, you start to effect him. He doesn't get the benefits of a wife any more. Now, he will only have a room-mate. And that's much less convenient for him than a wife. So that may have some impact on him, and thus influence him to change his behaviour.

Good luck.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

I so feel for u. My partner was so similar. He did the 'you just have to trust me' routine, while refusing to talk. I have done all the fighting for our relationship while he has done all the anger and defensiveness. And so, 9 months on from DD we have got absolutely nowhere. Don't make the same mistake. 

I believe that from what you say he is definitely continuing his affair and the only way you can 'woman up' and deal with him is to accept your relationship is over and move to the next stage (whether it is over or not, and whether you want it to be or not). Whether this next stage is continuing to live together but with seperate lives for the sake of the children (arrange your nights off so you can go out and meet someone too  bet he wouldn't like that!) or to make plans to seperate and live apart. This will then force his hand. He will have to decide if he wants her over you or if he wants to fight for you. It is the only way to make him snap out of his being unable to choose between his 2 lives.

If you separate then that is a terrible shame, but at least you will know that that is what he wants and that you are not just playing a waiting game for him to dump you. If he decides to fight, he will then be open to giving you what you need in order to make the marriage work. 

Beowolf said 'he is making excuses to stay in contact with her' and he is absolutely right. Your husband won't give until something else gives. You have to force his hand by accepting it is over. This in turn will produce the 180, you will concentrate on you instead of him, and he will wonder what on earth is going on and start to get scared. With the fear, that will make him stop and think and bring him back down to earth in order to look at the situation for what it really is. If he actually does want to lose you, or if he is really in love with the OW. Do you really want to be with a man any longer who is in love with someone else?


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Kissing is typically code cheaters use for "we had sex". I suspect that your WS went further than kissing.

Your WS is asking you to forgive him and trust him. This is rug sweeping at it's finest. Forgiveness should be on your time, not his. Trust may never come it is all dependent on his actions and your acceptance, he is doing nothing to build trust. I would tell him to show me the phone if you want me to trust you, whenever I ask you to see the phone show me. That would be a start to building trust, but only a start.

He is rug sweeping this.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

When he says trust him do you reply "why should I?"

What has he done to earn trust? You can receive all the advice in the world but until you decide to stop being afraid and act you won't accomplish anything. You aren't afraid of your husband, you are afraid of knowing the truth. Its understandable. You're afraid of having your world come crashing down. But is that really so much worse than this limbo?


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

BeenThereAndSuffering said:


> My H had a EA w/ kissing so I guess that would be a PA, anyways, something told me he was still talking to her so I asked to see his cell phone to ease my mind and he said that I needed to learn to forgive and trust him and wouldn't let me see the phone...well when he went to bed he put his phone on charge and hid it under the sofa, I went through it and all texts had been deleted and also the call logs...as we have prepaid phones there is no way for me to see the deleted logs, I need help on what to do as things had been slowly getting better...do I really need to trust him and this is what he is trying to tell me or is he really hiding the fact that he has broken no contact...


You dont trust him for good reason.. Him not giving the phone when you asked for it, is a huge red flag. He has to earn the trust back, he destroyed, it is not something he should be given.

You already know the answer to your question, what does your "gut" tell you?


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## BeenThereAndSuffering (Mar 12, 2012)

We had a long talk last night, he admitted to me that he was NOT in love with OW but the way she made him feel, he told me that he had complied and showed me his phone over and over and there was nothing there and since he has proven there is nothing there I should trust him because he knows where his heart is, he deletes the calls and logs so it will help me trust him......I dunno......but we will see.......


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## WhereAmI (Nov 3, 2010)

BeenThereAndSuffering said:


> We had a long talk last night, he admitted to me that he was NOT in love with OW but the way she made him feel, he told me that he had complied and showed me his phone over and over and there was nothing there and since he has proven there is nothing there I should trust him because he knows where his heart is, he deletes the calls and logs so it will help me trust him......I dunno......but we will see.......


HE does not get to decide what it will take for you to trust him. YOU DO! Tell him that you need him to stop deleting texts and to share his phone with you whenever you ask. He needs to EARN your trust back. 

He is still cheating. I'd stick a VAR in his car.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

BeenThereAndSuffering said:


> We had a long talk last night, he admitted to me that he was NOT in love with OW but the way she made him feel, he told me that he had complied and showed me his phone over and over and there was nothing there and since he has proven there is nothing there I should trust him because he knows where his heart is, *he deletes the calls and logs so it will help me trust him*......I dunno......but we will see.......


:wtf:


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

BeenThereAndSuffering said:


> We had a long talk last night, he admitted to me that he was NOT in love with OW but the way she made him feel, he told me that he had complied and showed me his phone over and over and there was nothing there and since he has proven there is nothing there I should trust him because he knows where his heart is, he deletes the calls and logs so it will help me trust him......I dunno......but we will see.......


Awesome.

Look. You need to take the advice of the people who have been through affairs on this board, and then helped countless other people deal with affairs.

Your husband is not going to come clean to you. That is the fact. I know you want him to. But he's not.

So you have to make a choice. There are three scenarios available to you.
1. You accept that you have an open marriage. This is hard to do. But, if you can accept it, you don't have to keep asking him about it. You just try to let it go. Maybe he will get bored with his girlfriend. Maybe not. But it's none of your business.
2. You hope that he is not cheating, but do nothing to verify it. It is possible, in the same sense that winning the lottery is possible, that your husband has chosen you over the other woman. However, since you have done nothing to verify this, you have to believe that your husband lied to you before, but isn't lying now.
3. You set boundaries and refuse to accept your husband's behavior. If he's unwilling to show you his phone, then you run the 180. You file for separation. You snoop on his computer, put spyware on his phone, or put a voice-activated recorder in his car to verify his behavior. And if he is continuing his affair, you move toward divorce.

So, you need to sit down and decide which course of action you want to use. Right now, you're on #2. And that's a bad course of action. You're in limbo. You don't want him to cheat, but you're unwilling to force the issue. So, he has no incentive to stop cheating.

I say you need to pick either #1, or #3 (most people here will advise #3) and then act.

Good luck.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

BeenThereAndSuffering said:


> We had a long talk last night, he admitted to me that he was NOT in love with OW but the way she made him feel, he told me that he had complied and showed me his phone over and over and there was nothing there and since he has proven there is nothing there I should trust him because he knows where his heart is, he deletes the calls and logs so it will help me trust him......I dunno......but we will see.......


You can`t possibly fall for that bull**** can you?


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## BeenThereAndSuffering (Mar 12, 2012)

Well, I pissed him off big time today, says he is filing for divorce...I called the other woman and talked to her, she admitted that they had kissed and that she later regretted it and broke off the relationship with my H, so she could work on her relationship. That was the night that her mate took his life...when I began telling her everything that he had told me she got mad, not at me but my husband, she swore it was never anything like that and said the kiss would had never taken place had they not been drunk and confiding in each other about their relationship woes, it was a moment of weakness on both their parts, but NEVER anything more and and never will be, says she has no interest in H at all and claims she is returning to her home state in June. So this whole time he wanted me to think he was talking to her when he really wasn't, she said if I didn't believe her that she does not care to disclose her phone bill to me so I can see that she has not been in contact with my H. What should I make of this and why does he want to make me jealous and insecure?


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Perhaps you got the truth from the OW. I doubt it. Just my opinion. Why would she tell you the truth?

Your WS is a piece of work.

Is he worth fighting to keep?

Let him go.

If he is lying and she is telling the truth, he will have lost you and her.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

I hate to say this but if he threatens divorce you need to tell him "do it." He's been manipulating you for a while now. I really don't know why. Perhaps he is insecure and wants to make you more insecure than he is so he'll feel like he's in control. I just don't know. What I do know is that you can't let him manipulate you. It will eventually screw you up royally.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

Who else thinks the OP's husband needs a massive slap.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Complexity said:


> Who else thinks the OP's husband needs a massive slap.


Oh oh oh me me me me


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

OP is dependent on her H. That makes the matter a little bit complicated.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

BeenThereAndSuffering said:


> Well, I pissed him off big time today, says he is filing for divorce...I called the other woman and talked to her, she admitted that they had kissed and that she later regretted it and broke off the relationship with my H, so she could work on her relationship. That was the night that her mate took his life...when I began telling her everything that he had told me she got mad, not at me but my husband, she swore it was never anything like that and said the kiss would had never taken place had they not been drunk and confiding in each other about their relationship woes, it was a moment of weakness on both their parts, but NEVER anything more and and never will be, says she has no interest in H at all and claims she is returning to her home state in June. So this whole time he wanted me to think he was talking to her when he really wasn't, she said if I didn't believe her that she does not care to disclose her phone bill to me so I can see that she has not been in contact with my H. What should I make of this and why does he want to make me jealous and insecure?


Your default position should be that she is lying and you shouldn`t bother contacting her again.
It`s pointless.

State your boundaries and hold firm to them


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

AngryandUsed said:


> OP is dependent on her H. That makes the matter a little bit complicated.


OP should go see an attorney and find out her legal rights.

During the divorce she would get child support and interim spousal support.

After the divorce child support and she might be able to get rehabilitative spousal support so that she can go to school if needed, find a job, etc.

She could also get student financial aid while in school if her income is low enough.

There is no reason for her to stay in an abusive or cheating relationship because she depends on him financially.


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## BeenThereAndSuffering (Mar 12, 2012)

Feel like I have been hit by a train this morning...every part of my body is aching sore.....I think I am reaching the point where I am becoming emotionally stunted or just shutting down, no matter how upset I get I can't cry anymore, I can't even be mad...just going numb I guess...maybe thats where I need to be in order to get through this.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

Has any of the advice here helped?


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

sorry again. How long can u put up in an abusive relaionship? 

Hard.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BeenThereAndSuffering (Mar 12, 2012)

THe advice has helped and i have begun the 180...just some days are hard.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

BeenThereAndSuffering said:


> ..... showed me his phone over and over and there was nothing there and since he has proven there is nothing there I should trust him because he knows where his heart is, he deletes the calls and logs so it will help me trust him......I dunno......but we will see.......


My God! He has some nerve! He has some front! HE DELETED THE CALLS AND LOGS SO IT WILL HELP ME TRUST HIM. Listen to yourself. This is the most ridiculous nonsense I have ever heard. He is so full of s*it I can smell it from here. You need to stop believing and trusting what he is saying to you and see it for what it is. Don't let him turn the issue into something else either. Him deleting is the issue. He has turned it into him helping you out.....unbelievable!


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## BeenThereAndSuffering (Mar 12, 2012)

here is where i am so far...been imlementing the 180. I have quit catering to his needs, i dont do his laundry and i dont cook his food. when i receive a phone call i walk into a room where he cant hear my conversation because he no longer deserves that courtesy because he wouldnt return it to me. he asks who i am talking to and i give him his line of ITS JUST A FRIEND..in truth its usually my granny or my sister. I also quit texting him while he was at work so he has begun texting me and i havent responded. he came home yesterday asking me why i didnt text and i just said real nicely that i was too busy and didnt have time. so this morning he texts me and ask me if i am giving up on our marriage or if i am seeing someone else..laughable right? i didnt respond to him i feel i am too busy talking to you all to even repond to him...lol..i am sorry being mean or stubborn really isnt in my nature so now that the tables are turning it feels good to be in control of myself even if right now its only a little bit. any new advice and am i handling everything ok or am i going overboard?


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

I think you should be unconcerned rather than getting it even with him.
Your attempts to pay him back in same currency is going to land you in trouble. Because you are trying to act the same way. It is not real your real self.
Why dont you sit down with him and finalize?


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

BeenThereAndSuffering said:


> here is where i am so far...been imlementing the 180. I have quit catering to his needs, i dont do his laundry and i dont cook his food. when i receive a phone call i walk into a room where he cant hear my conversation because he no longer deserves that courtesy because he wouldnt return it to me. he asks who i am talking to and i give him his line of ITS JUST A FRIEND..in truth its usually my granny or my sister. I also quit texting him while he was at work so he has begun texting me and i havent responded. he came home yesterday asking me why i didnt text and i just said real nicely that i was too busy and didnt have time. so this morning he texts me and ask me if i am giving up on our marriage or if i am seeing someone else..laughable right? i didnt respond to him i feel i am too busy talking to you all to even repond to him...lol..i am sorry being mean or stubborn really isnt in my nature so now that the tables are turning it feels good to be in control of myself even if right now its only a little bit. any new advice and am i handling everything ok or am i going overboard?


When you speak to him you can be cordial and pleasant but not friendly. You do not have to answer his texts. This is him keeping you on a leash. You do not need a leash. Simply say that you have things to do and responding to his texts is not high on your priority list. Say it matter of factly. Not rude but not friendly. When you go in the other room to take a call if he asks you who it is just tell him that if he needs his privacy so do you. You don't need to lie and say its a friend when its your mother. Don't tell him anything. He is going to accuse you of seeing someone simply because he has already done it so he will assume you are too. If he asks if you are giving up on the marriage tell him he has already said he is going to file for divorce. You are just preparing yourself to be alone. If he said he doesn't want a divorce that it was just words tell him his actions as of late indicate he really does want a divorce and if he truly wants to save the marriage he will show you with actions and not rely on something obviously so trivial as words.

Edit: Byw, I think you're doing fine. Keep taking back control of your life.


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## hoag (Mar 7, 2012)

At this point it is his job to consistently do the right things so flags are not going up so you feel like you need to check his phone. I am sure that you want to trust him so you do not feel the need to check on him. Unless he changes, the flags will continue to go up as he moves on to another way of contacting his friend. 

He needs to show you that he has changed, if not give up on him.


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## OhGeesh (Jan 5, 2010)

In this day and age its as simple as Google Voice and do Ur txting over wifi its untrackable.....delete and reinstall the app as needed and you could give Ur phone to anyone. 

I guess if u were that slick u wouldn't get caught. Some people are so not tech savvy.....which is good for the BS.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

I think you sound like you are doing great. That is definitely the way forward in order for him to come to his senses. I completely agree with Beowolf. Be cordial. But also this can't go on forever. You are showing him his behaviour is unacceptable, you are showing him you are ok, and so, soon is the point at which to address and finalises in whichever form that takes.


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## BeenThereAndSuffering (Mar 12, 2012)

Trying to be strong is hard because I want to cave, gotta do this not only for myself butmy children.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Whatever you do, keep being strong. And any time u feel like you are wavering, read your thread again. Read your words that contain his ridiculous and implausible explanations, and his indifference to you and your feelings. I find that works for me on the whole. I am also on the 180, only been doing since Saturday, however he knew the whole week before that too while he was away on holiday. He knew I was not happy while he was away and it has not changed. Saturday he came back, but only to coldness. Tomorrow I am finalising. I am already nervous. Not a happy bunny. But sh*t happens, and he don't deserve me. I hope I stay strong.


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## BeenThereAndSuffering (Mar 12, 2012)

I hope you do to, I know what you are going through and thanks for being there for me.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

BeenThereAndSuffering said:


> I hope you do to, I know what you are going through and thanks for being there for me.


We're all here for you.


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

Do what is right.


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## BeenThereAndSuffering (Mar 12, 2012)

So here is where we are, the H said he wanted to work things out and that he loved me, etc. A few days later he said he was going out with friends but wouldn't tell me who, said it was none of my business..yeah right...anyways, while he was out that night my sister and her friend we're coming back from a church function and seen my husband in MY car parked in the parking lot and thought he was broke down so they pulled over to see if he needed help and seen he had another woman in the car, the other girl got out and got in her own vehicle and left. My hubby came home mad screaming and cussing at me that I had him followed...I wish...If I wanted to see what he was doing I would want to do it with my own eyes. So he refused to have NC with said woman because of the previous events of her mate committing suicide, so I said my children and are will not play 2nd best to a skanky wh*re and I packed our stuff and left. It may have been extreme in some peoples eyes but in mine it just wasn't enough. He has called my cell several times since I left but I wouldn't take his calls, I always let the kids answer it so that way he can't say that I was trying to keep him from talking to them, and when he asks for me I say I am too busy to talk but he can call and talk to the kids whenever he wants and see them too. I dunno, but I feel more of a relief right now, no stress...I thought in the beginning that if I didn't have him that I couldn't live but I actually feel so much better without him...call me crazy...but we will see how things go, I may be hurt at him but I still love him and care for him very much. I have been gone for 5 days now.....


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

It is not extreme at all. You did the right thing and you are doing great. Keep up the good work.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

You did the right thing. It was obvious that he wanted to continue the affair. You set your boundaries and now you're enforcing them.

You refuse to be married to a man who sleeps with other women. Good for you. Since your husband sleeps with other women and refuses to commit to you (in action, not words), you have no choice but to divorce him. Start calling lawyers.

Good luck.


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## square1 (Oct 31, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> You did the right thing. It was obvious that he wanted to continue the affair. You set your boundaries and now you're enforcing them.
> 
> You refuse to be married to a man who sleeps with other women. Good for you. Since your husband sleeps with other women and refuses to commit to you (in action, not words), you have no choice but to divorce him. Start calling lawyers.
> 
> Good luck.


Yeah what he said^

If he can't go no nc and stick with it SHOWING you (not telling you) he is serious about his marriage and wanting to save it then you needed to walk away.


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## BeenThereAndSuffering (Mar 12, 2012)

I am still doing good, I finally took H call and he wanted to talk, telling me that he has went NC with her and that he is in process of finding another job, says he realizes mistakes, etc. Volunteered me his phone to keep for as long as I want to see that there is NC. I told him that if we are going to try to make things work we are taking it slow and MC is a MUST. And he agreed. He begged me to come back home because he misses me and the kids, but I don't feel that a very wise decision at this time, so I am going to continue living on my own and see how the MC works out before making any decisions to go rushing back into a bad relationship. A friend told me that I needed to go back home because I won't know that NC has broken if it happens if I am not there. I just don't feel this a wise decision, because I feel like he is saying the things I want to hear in order to get me back and that he hasn't really implemented the actual changes. Am I wrong?


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## WhereAmI (Nov 3, 2010)

If you don't want to go home, don't. Staying away doesn't completely take away your ability to verify NC. You should purchase a few VARs and place them in the house while he's away. The WS often buys a prepaid phone to keep in contact. Also, he needs to write a NC letter and hand it to you so you can read (make sure it's appropriate) and mail.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

BeenThereAndSuffering said:


> A friend told me that I needed to go back home because I won't know that NC has broken if it happens if I am not there. I just don't feel this a wise decision, because I feel like he is saying the things I want to hear in order to get me back and that he hasn't really implemented the actual changes. Am I wrong?


You're not wrong. However, neither is your friend.

If you've decided to divorce, you are justified. It doesn't matter whether your husband is sincere or not. He doesn't deserve a another chance.

However, if you decide to consider reconciliation, then you need for your husband to sincerely commit to the marriage. At this point, you can't know whether your husband has chosen to commit to you, or has chosen to go further underground in order to get you back.

It's good that he's volunteered his phone. However, he could have bought a prepaid phone to use for the affair. He could be using email, Facebook, or instant messaging on the computer to communicate.

I suggest that you go to the house for some reason. Tell him you need your crock pot. While you're there, install keylogger software on the PC that will email you reports of his computer usage. If he's created a new email address for affair communications, you'll know. Also, put a voice-activated recorder under the seat of his car. If he talks to the OW, using any phone, or even in person, you'll know the next time you go by to check the recorder.

Reagan said, "Trust, but verify." At this point, you can't even trust, so you have nothing but verification. You have to verify to have any hope of eventually trusting him.

Also, if you want to give him yet another chance, you need to make it clear that this is the final straw. He needs to believe that any hint of impropriety with another woman will result in divorce. Tell him you don't even need to be right about it. You've already got reason enough to divorce him. Right now, he's like the boy who cried wolf. So, if some drunk woman mistakenly dials his number instead of of her boyfriend's, you're divorcing him. So he needs to hope that doesn't happen.

Good luck.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

WhereAmI said:


> If you don't want to go home, don't. Staying away doesn't completely take away your ability to verify NC. You should purchase a few VARs and place them in the house while he's away. The WS often buys a prepaid phone to keep in contact. Also, he needs to write a NC letter and hand it to you so you can read (make sure it's appropriate) and mail.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


place a VAR in the car as well, also a keylogger if he a has a computer while he is not around.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

BeenThereAndSuffering said:


> I am still doing good, I finally took H call and he wanted to talk, telling me that he has went NC with her and that he is in process of finding another job, says he realizes mistakes, etc. Volunteered me his phone to keep for as long as I want to see that there is NC. I told him that if we are going to try to make things work we are taking it slow and MC is a MUST. And he agreed. He begged me to come back home because he misses me and the kids, but I don't feel that a very wise decision at this time, so I am going to continue living on my own and see how the MC works out before making any decisions to go rushing back into a bad relationship. A friend told me that I needed to go back home because I won't know that NC has broken if it happens if I am not there. I just don't feel this a wise decision, because I feel like he is saying the things I want to hear in order to get me back and that he hasn't really implemented the actual changes. Am I wrong?


I think you are doing what you need to and that is exactly right. This time away will give you some perspective. When you were home did it stop him from seeing her? Cheaters will find a way to cheat if they want to. You need to not worry about him. Concentrate on yourself and your kids. When/if you do decide to go home you need to be strong and resolute. Work on that right now while he can't whisper in your ear things to break you down.


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## BeenThereAndSuffering (Mar 12, 2012)

Well, here is where I am today, some may be a little disappointed that I didnt take more time, but I am home now, I laid down my demands and he willing agreed, i have his cellphone now to make sure NC isn't broken, I took our home computer to a friends house til I know NC is going to stay NC, husband has taken his 3 week vacation time from work so we can begin to work things out. It is a slow process but things are going good so far but it is the 1st day and also he brought up MC this time and so we have our 1st appt on Monday. I will keep you posted on how things are going or if anything arises and I would also like to know of things that maybe I should look for during R as I know sometimes they get a lil bit sneakier or what not and sometimes on the defensive. THank you all very much for your help and support and for helping me realize that i DONT have to have him but CHOOSE too..you all are wonderful.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

Wow what a turn around, you should be proud of yourself! I do however think you should've made him wait more, atleast to see how far he was willing to go to win you back. Nonetheless be on constant guard, there are ample opportunities for him to reconnect with the OM including a pre paid phone. Make sure this isn't a false R.


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## BeenThereAndSuffering (Mar 12, 2012)

He offered to quit his job and even gave his 2 weeks notice, but with jobs being scarce where we live i had him withdrawl it for now and he took his vacation time instead. I went through every inch of our house and his truck for a prepaid as my thoughts were the same but I turned up nothing. i still have the VAR in place in his vehicle into he proves that it is truly over with OW. But he has had no complaints in my demands which is a big change as he would usually try to manipulate me into doing things his way. He told me yesterday that he realizes that everything he was saying to me and asking from me was bs and at the time he wasnt thinking clearly because his head was just so messed up because he thought he was falling in love with her and when I packed up and left his world fell apart and he realized he was just in a daze at the way she made him feel. He said that it was all a misake and if he could take it about he would and he has been transparent and has been willing to talk about everything in detail and is still adamant that it never went as far as EA and kissing, maybe that was all it really was but only time will tell as we continue talking about it because it could have went farther and he is afraid I will leave for good if he comes completely clean but we will see. Its just hard for me to believe that 2 adults that are emotionally involved and kissing wouldn't take it farther, but I guess its possible. Staying strong and pressing on...


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

BeenThereAndSuffering said:


> He offered to quit his job and even gave his 2 weeks notice, but with jobs being scarce where we live i had him withdrawl it for now and he took his vacation time instead. I went through every inch of our house and his truck for a prepaid as my thoughts were the same but I turned up nothing. i still have the VAR in place in his vehicle into he proves that it is truly over with OW. But he has had no complaints in my demands which is a big change as he would usually try to manipulate me into doing things his way. He told me yesterday that he realizes that everything he was saying to me and asking from me was bs and at the time he wasnt thinking clearly because his head was just so messed up because he thought he was falling in love with her and when I packed up and left his world fell apart and he realized he was just in a daze at the way she made him feel. He said that it was all a misake and if he could take it about he would and he has been transparent and has been willing to talk about everything in detail and is still adamant that it never went as far as EA and kissing, maybe that was all it really was but only time will tell as we continue talking about it because it could have went farther and he is afraid I will leave for good if he comes completely clean but we will see. Its just hard for me to believe that 2 adults that are emotionally involved and kissing wouldn't take it farther, but I guess its possible. Staying strong and pressing on...


The only way you will be sure of NC is if he no longer works with the OW. I would strongly suggest you have him start looking for another job asap. Also, you need to know the truth. It is extremely likely that if they kissed there was more. You yourself are having doubts about that part of the story and you should be questioning it. Waywards almost always trickle truth. They say its because they don't want to hurt their spouses but the truth is they are afraid if they tell all their spouses will leave for good. I am happy he is willing to work on your marriage but I really think you aren't getting the entire story. If I were in your position I would suggest a polygraph test in order to confirm his story. Judge his reaction when you suggest it. If he hesitates or refuses I think you need to question his "truth." If he says they aren't reliable just tell him that the testers the police use are much more reliable and that would be the option here. Again, its not the test that will determine his honesty but his reaction that will tell you what you need to know. Just a couple of suggestions.

BTW, you are doing very well. Just keep your eyes open and your heart guarded for now. I'm praying for you.


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## BeenThereAndSuffering (Mar 12, 2012)

I did tell him I wanted a polygraph and he agreed happily with no complaints or anything, but I feel he did that because he didn't think I would go through with it, so maybe I should set up an appointment and see what happens. When in doubt..finish it out!


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

BeenThereAndSuffering said:


> I did tell him I wanted a polygraph and he agreed happily with no complaints or anything, but I feel he did that because he didn't think I would go through with it, so maybe I should set up an appointment and see what happens. When in doubt..finish it out!


If he thought you were bluffing then he would have agreed happily. Tell him you are making an appointment but don't tell him when it is. You still have access to his computer correct? See if he starts looking up "how to beat a polygraph." If so you know something is not right. Once the day comes for the appointment don't tell him until you are literally on the steps to the testing office. Go under the guise of going out to dinner or something. If he has anything left to confess it will probably come out then.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Switch phones so that they are under a contract IN YOUR NAME. That way you can access the records anytime. Do not end your vigilance (VAR, etc); he has been far too manipulative for you to do that for the foreseeable future. Tell him that, too--and point out that he can NEVER ask for you to "just trust me" because he has violated that trust and your distrust may rear its head at anytime. Make sure he understands this--that 6 years from now, you may ask to see his phone when you haven't checked in 8 months, or more--it will just happen b/c of the trauma you have been through. 

He is clearly affected by your willingness to leave--but don't use that advantage unfairly. Never threaten it--and tell him he's not getting any more warnings about suspect behavior, either. You cannot afford to keep leaving and coming back; he will soon learn that you won't follow through. Let him know that the next time is the last time, and that you mean it. The way you felt-relieved--is a good sign that you have crossed over to the side where "living without him" is acceptable, which means you have broken that dependency that left you subject to his manipulation. Be sure he knows this, too. He cannot test you again, b/c you are not going to play that game. 

Good luck.


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## BeenThereAndSuffering (Mar 12, 2012)

So husband has been transparent and we even trashed his phone, he has been nice and loving and caring...BUT I feel I am changing, things have been going so good and it is just making me mad, I have been really tempermental..why couldn't he do these things to fix our R instead of having an A?.. if that makes sense..I thought I wanted R because I love him and didn't want to throw 13yrs down the drain...hard to explain these feelings I am having other than I love him and want to be with him but just don't think I can...is this normal or am I losing it big time?


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

Nope it's perfectly normal to feel this way. It's the bitterness and resentment starting to set in. This is where it gets really hard. Now that you've moved beyond the "desperate-I-want-to-save-my-marriage" state, begins the pain, bitterness and the constant triggers. If you can afford it, the both of you should get MC and IC for yourself.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

BeenThereAndSuffering said:


> So husband has been transparent and we even trashed his phone, he has been nice and loving and caring...BUT I feel I am changing, things have been going so good and it is just making me mad, I have been really tempermental..why couldn't he do these things to fix our R instead of having an A?.. if that makes sense..I thought I wanted R because I love him and didn't want to throw 13yrs down the drain...hard to explain these feelings I am having other than I love him and want to be with him but just don't think I can...is this normal or am I losing it big time?



I think what you are experiencing is exactly why infidelity is so hard to get through...

Hope all works out as you like . 

~sammy


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

I came back to your thread and was really pleased to see u following through with what was needed. Well done! I hope u are now getting what u need from him...it sounds like it....and that this (he) is now genuine. I hope it continues. 

And yes, your feelings are completely normal. They will subside too so long as u allow them to come out by talking them through with him and don't allow them to come out in maliciousness. If he is genuine, he will allow u to express all these things to him without getting angry. He should be empathetic and sympathetic.

Good luck!


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## BeenThereAndSuffering (Mar 12, 2012)

Thanks, I wasn't sure if this was normal and/or if it would pass or if this was another time I was to decide to stay in my marriage or walk away..I thought making that decision was hard the first time and I certainly don't want to have to decide again. I feel a little more at ease..just one more thing. you say these feeling will pass as long as I talk to him about them, are you talking about the anger or the A? Because I have no interest in talking about the A anymore, I heard all I want to hear and now I want to move on, I just don't know how to get over this as they say BITTERNESS...is bitterness and anger the same thing? Because I thought in being bitter you would be depressed and have sorta a love you hate you moments in the relationship...I don't feel that way, I just feel the need to whop him up side the head...lol..I dunno..I hope this passes soon..


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

You're going through the stages of grief.
1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance

You don't necessarily have to hit all these stages. And, the progression can both proceed and regress from stage to stage. But you are, at a minimum, several months away from acceptance of the affair without any anger, depression, or the other stages of the above model.

Good luck.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

What I meant was talking about your feeling of anger towards him. Whatever you are feeling really. If you don't want to hear any more about the affair then that is fine, bit you can still talk about how it has made you feel. I think talking about the way u feel is a great way to deal with those feelings. It helps make sense of them and helps them to get put into perspective. It will help to get past them quickly too, to move onto the next stage more swiftly. And it will help to have him listen, and have his responses. It will confirm your feelings, and his desire to R. That or show you the opposite. That he doesn't want to R and that all is false. Whatever, talking about your feelings always helps no matter what. It brings issues to the forefront and forces them to be dealt with no matter how small or how big the issues are. If u want the dishes washed, sitting silently will not get them done. And you could be sat for a very long time waiting, and the dirty dishes will still be there. And if you sit without saying anything, waiting for them to get washed all by themselves, then the anger will slowly build and simmer away quietly with you. If u voice your wishes then u get your answer. He will happily do them straight away, he will do them in a bit, or he will no way do them because he has a million other things to do! 

If you are not the 'talking about your feelings' type, I think it just takes a lot longer to get over things and/or behaviour begins to come out in other ways, driven subconsciously by your emotions. Like a child basically, because children cannot express themselves their feelings are displayed in their behaviour. Thus, if you don't express your feelings to your husband, your feelings will no doubt be expressed to him in your actions and come out sideways at him. They will come out as you doing or saying nasty things to him because you have that anger building up inside you. And then that will cause him to be upset, feel animosity to you, that will then in turn fuel your grief, upset, and anger...the cycle continues. The pain and anger is prolonged by it not being dealt with in a healthy way.

So... talk! About whatever is on your mind and whatever is upsetting you. Talking is always good.


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## anonymous1978 (Dec 27, 2010)

While I hate to be negative, it concerns me that his behavior has changed so drastically and so quickly. Please do not let your guard down. Are there other ways he may possibly be secretly keeping in touch with another woman (or women)? You have not found another phone, but what about the home computer? What about his time away from the house?

I am sorry to be so negative, but my ignorance at the beginning really kept me from being able to figure things out and his level of dishonesty toward you is very concerning and it would surprise me very much if it changed so fast...


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## BeenThereAndSuffering (Mar 12, 2012)

He has no cellphone, we trashed it..computer is at a friends house and we use my cell for any calls that need to be made and anytime he uses it he does so in front of me and he hasn't been anywhere without me since I have been back home, maybe this is why I am angry, could I be feeling smothered?? I feel like a warden, or he is treating me like so...I dunno people, I think I am really beginning to lose it...nervous or mental breakdown in the makings?!? maybe...


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

yeah he is hiding something


Husband and Wife should be able to look at each other's phones whenever they want there should be no hiding or deleting. If you got facebook husband and wife should have each other's passwords. 

If you got nothing to hide than no harm would come out of your SPOUSE the person you married who should love you and you should truly love them. If that is the case than there is no harm or nothing wrong with being able to look through each other's facebook's or phones. If one spouse is ever insecure or feels you may be cheating you should give them access and be understand and show them that you are not hiding anything.


Lol hiding things, lying and being defensive and not allowing your spouse to see your phone or your facebook is ridiculous and equates to them hiding something.


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## BeenThereAndSuffering (Mar 12, 2012)

UPDATE: In my couseling session yesterday my couselor said that she thought my H was a narcissitic serial cheater that this type of person cannot be cured because it is something that is part of their personality and built in and that they don't see there being anything wrong with them. She also said that I should not waste my time with this R and should file for divorce and leave him as soon as possible. It was very odd and made me extremely uncomfortable...is this normal for counselors to behave this way or has mine flipped her lid?


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

While I think it is unusual for a counselor to be so frank I think her advice may indeed be correct. If your husband will not completely open his life to you he is going to continue to carry on outside your marriage. She is correct that serial cheaters do not change. Is your husband a serial cheater? I would be very concerned that he may be considering his reluctance for transparency.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

I would also be very concerned if a counselor said this to me. A diagnosis of narcissim is a counselor's way of saying the patient is terminal, there is no cure. The reason for this is that narcissists see all problems in life as having external causes; they are never at fault. Other people are pawns, simple means to an end.

Your counselor should have far more information and a much bigger picture than anyone here on TAM. I am concerned as to why you would doubt their advice. I realize that counselors can be pro-divorce and anti-marriage, and people should be educated about that. But this counselor is likely seeing a pattern of behavior in your spouse that extends far beyond this one situation you've shared here.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

I wish all counselors were this frank

sure, some will be wrong time to time but somethings need to be told because learning them on your own takes too much time


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

BeenThereAndSuffering said:


> UPDATE: In my couseling session yesterday my couselor said that she thought my H was a narcissitic serial cheater that this type of person cannot be cured because it is something that is part of their personality and built in and that they don't see there being anything wrong with them. She also said that I should not waste my time with this R and should file for divorce and leave him as soon as possible. It was very odd and made me extremely uncomfortable...is this normal for counselors to behave this way or has mine flipped her lid?


 "narcissitic serial cheater"

Those are some seriously damning words coming from a professional.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

Well his "indiscretion" did lead to the suicide of other woman's husband and he still continued with the affair.

I think the counsellor might be on to something.


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## be-man (Apr 15, 2012)

Wish I would of thought of changing the name on my wife's phone to I want a divorce. Brilliant.


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## BeenThereAndSuffering (Mar 12, 2012)

I do not know why my counselor said what she said, as far as things are concerned this is the only A my H has had, and during this particular session we never even talked about my husband or the A, I was talking about issues I was having with other familiy that was causing me to have anxiety attacks and out of the blue she says these things about my husband and doesn't even elaborate on why she decided to say them. The even stranger factor is that this morning I get a phone call from her secretary telling me that my appt for next has been cancelled as my couselor has decided to take a leave of personal time for an undetermined length of time..so what is up with this?? Could she be having her own marital issues? I wonder now if I should just find a new IC.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

BeenThereAndSuffering said:


> ..just one more thing. you say these feeling will pass as long as I talk to him about them, are you talking about the anger or the A? Because I have no interest in talking about the A anymore, I heard all I want to hear and now I want to move on, I just don't know how to get over this as they say BITTERNESS...is bitterness and anger the same thing? Because I thought in being bitter you would be depressed and have sorta a love you hate you moments in the relationship...I don't feel that way, I just feel the need to whop him up side the head...lol...


I would say that anger and bitterness are closely related. Bitterness definitely has its roots in anger. And I don't think depression is related to either but can come from both. Depression is more of a personal, self esteem, self hatred/loathing kinda thing. 

As for talking, I believe just whatever is there on your mind. How he has made you feel, how you feel about him, what he has done to the relationship, what you both need to do to improve the relationship, both of your wants, desires. Tell him how angry you are with him, how you feel bitter at the effects he has brought upon the life you share. Talk about whatever bothers you. And encourage him to do the same. Open two-way communication is the food of a close relationship, loving and caring and open. That's what I think anyway.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

BeenThereAndSuffering said:


> I do not know why my counselor said what she said, as far as things are concerned this is the only A my H has had, and during this particular session we never even talked about my husband or the A, I was talking about issues I was having with other familiy that was causing me to have anxiety attacks and out of the blue she says these things about my husband and doesn't even elaborate on why she decided to say them. The even stranger factor is that this morning I get a phone call from her secretary telling me that my appt for next has been cancelled as my couselor has decided to take a leave of personal time for an undetermined length of time..so what is up with this?? Could she be having her own marital issues? I wonder now if I should just find a new IC.


Re my previous post: Sorry, I forgot I had replied to that post already! Replied again! doh! 

Anyway, I didn't agree with the other posters to your update before I even read the one quoted above. I was going to ask how she knew the fact your hubby is a narcissist. Does she counsel him too? And, how many affairs has your hubby had? But, you have answered that. It sounds like she has projected her own twisted views and black and white reasonings to your situation. That is NOT a counsellor! You say your husband is now with you constantly, all is done as one. He is not doing this as a narcissist. He is doing it to make you feel safe and secure (unless of course he has some marvellous plan to do this for a limited amount of time...like one/three weeks...and then start messing you about again). This counsellor went far beyond what a counsellor should have and has not showed an ounce of professionalism. No wonder they have taken time out! Sounds like she is on the verge of a breakdown...not you! 

Everyone makes mistakes. And many make bloody stupid mistakes....many! There is no black and white. See by his actions, 'appreciate' what he is doing to make amends...if you can...and as a previous poster said, stay vigilant. Vigilant for some time til (and if) you feel safe again. 

People f*ck up. All people. Don't forget that.

People who f*ck up need to prove themselves. Sounds like he is trying.


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## BeenThereAndSuffering (Mar 12, 2012)

thanks Remains, we have seperate IC counselors that we each meet with once a week and we meet with our couples MC every other week, I know my H is trying because he would have never went to counseling in the past and he has even opened up and started talking to me about his childhood days which was a closed subject due to abuse and I never pressured him to talk about but now he brings up on his own, not so much the abuse but funny things he did as a child..we are making progress and that I am so thankful for......


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## Bottled Up (Nov 12, 2011)

BTAS, I read in a book that most private counselors claim to handle marriage counseling services but a whopping 85% of them have never taken courses or done course work in the field.

Make damn sure whatever MC you're using is actually a *Certified MC*, because it could be a huge difference in the advice you're being given regarding your issues.

Some food for thought...


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## BeenThereAndSuffering (Mar 12, 2012)

Our MC is great, it is my IC that flipped her lid, I have been looking for another one..


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