# Just found out wife had affair 6-7 years ago . . .



## zing61

Hi all: 

So here is my story: I had a good friend contact me and tell me his wife was having an affair, that she had left him, demanded a divorce, etc. My wife and I were both absolutely stunned as we had no clue whatsoever that this was coming and we were very close to this couple. 

So, I was looking through this site, trying to see if their were ways I could help my friend, and I started reading the infidelity forum and started getting a strange feeling in my gut about a "friendship" that my wife has had with a couple whom we have done many things with over the years. On a whim, on 10/2 afternoon I went and searched her personal e-mail and found that she had been sexting with this guy several years ago, but it looked like it had ended. I (fortunately) sent myself all of the worst e-mails to examine later so I could try to piece this thing together.

I confronted her with the evidence on 10/2 evening and she admitted to the sexting, told me there was never anything physical between the two of them and that it had "only" been an emotional affair. She said over and over how sorry she was and how she was wrong to do it, even though she was feeling very "badly" about herself at the time. Unfortunately, we had to take a camping vacation with my siblings and father the next day, so it was very difficult to continue the conversation.

During the trip, I was extremely pissed at her for a couple of days - just had nothing to do with her, but finally broke down one night and had sex with her, then the next night was the same. She kept saying over and over how sorry she was, how she knows it was wrong, how she feels very badly that she hurt me, etc., etc. This morning (after yet another roll in the hay - isn't that a little weird that I still want her that way?) I told her that this wasn't over by a long shot - she asked me what she had to do. I told her that ONE thing she has to do is give me a long, detailed explanation.

So, we just got home late last night, and checked her e-mail this morning. Lo and behold all of the e-mail messages to this guy that had been in existence 5 days ago are now gone (I don't think she knew how many of them I had seen and saved). The only time she could have done it was the day after I confronted her, but before we left for the trip. Going through and looking at the copies I had saved, I simply cannot believe these two were not having a full blown affair at the time. I also recall her going over there at the time and spending a lot of time there - I always thought it was to spend time with the couple - and it may have been - I have a weird feeling that she might have been sleeping with both of them. But regardless, I believe she was sleeping with the guy, and it may have lasted anywhere from 7-8 months to a few years. The e-mails between the two of them are just too personal and there were too many opportunities for them not to have slept together.

I am now really pissed at her because of her deletion of the e-mails. I have not confronted her with this yet because I just found out about that particular nugget of dog **** this morning. She keeps insisting "it is not as bad as it looks." If that were the case, why would she delete the e-mails? I think she is still deceiving me, by trying to erase the evidence (that I don't think she knows I have).

I truly believe that what she had with this guy (maybe couple?) is over. Some of her e-mails to him have shown indications of that. I've checked her e-mail, phone and message records for the past few months and there is next to nothing to/from the guy. She does have to have some contact with him because she works with him. I am afraid the next time I see him though, that he will not make it out of the encounter alive - we WERE good friends with this couple. 

Also don't know if I should tell his wife. I THINK she is a good, sweet person, and I don't want her to go through what I am going through now - particularly now that I truly believe it is over. What do you all think?

Next, I don't really know how I feel about all of this - mostly just confused. I am 53 years old, she is 51. I THOUGHT she had been a tremendous wife and mother all of these years - I really did think she was a great person, and a tremendous partner. Our two children are 19 and 21 and out of the house and doing well. Don't know that I want to reconcile with somebody who might do this to me again in the future - no matter how gorgeous she is - and she is a drop-dead beautiful athletic woman - and I can't emphasize enough how kind and decent she otherwise is to me and to all of our friends.

Any advice? Thanks so much for letting me get this down - even just writing this has helped.


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## tom67

First off sorry you are here.
Yes you should let his wife know because if it was the other way around you would want to know.
I suggest out of the blue you tell her she is going for a polygraph then see her reaction.
Do NOT tell your wife you are going to tell his wife.


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## the guy

Think about having her take a polygraph....at the very least tell her "you made an appointment" then drive to the office and see if you get a parking lot confession.


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## tom67

Oh boy...
She still works with him?
Plenty of contact there not good.


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## BWBill

Good chance she's already told the OM that you're on to them. If she did they're going to concoct a story.

Can you check her phone and text history to see if she's contacted him?

I would tell the OM's wife and ask yours for a polygraph the same afternoon. One of them will crack.



Dave


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## the guy

I'd work on your wife some more , cuz cheater lie by deffinition.
cheater will minimize and with enough pressure you will get some trickle truth.

I think once you get as much info as you possibly can then con tact the other man wife (OMW).

In fact when you do expose this to OMW have her do the same....work on her husband get his side of the story with out letting her husband know how she found out (if thats possible) then the two of you can compare stories.

My point is with crap like this it takes a while to get the truth and it might take an allie (OMW) to help put the pieces together....

I regress the OMW my be in on it....

Again time is on your side so work on your options and find the best plan that will get you the most truth.

At the end of the day *we* (the betrayed) never get the full story but we can make a plan and work the plan.


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## tom67

You may before you confront her, take half the money out of the joint acct. and set one up for you only.
Just protect yourself that's all.


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## tom67

BWBill said:


> Good chance she's already told the OM that you're on to them. If she did they're going to concoct a story.
> 
> Can you check her phone and text history to see if she's contacted him?
> 
> I would tell the OM's wife and ask yours for a polygraph the same afternoon. One of them will crack.
> 
> 
> 
> Dave


:iagree:
Sure they can make up a story but he saved the nasty emails.
Of course then you can watch them squirm.


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## badmemory

Sorry you're here.

First, understand that when a cheating spouse gets caught at something like this, the default is for them to only admit to what evidence they believe you have. It's called trickle truth. They will lie about everything else. That's the script.

My wife did exactly the same thing as your wife. Claimed it was an EA, because she knew I had scant evidence at the time. She then deleted stuff also. But despite my premature confrontation, I got "lucky" and found all the evidence I needed a week later. It was a long term PA. But in my case the evidence was recent, unlike yours.

Based on what you've described, you should assume it's a PA and you shouldn't assume it ended; unless you get proof to the contrary. You can't believe anything your wife tells you. If they were communicating this way longer than a week or so, the probability of a PA goes up with each week of communication. POSOM's don't fool around with EA's very long without getting sex - and there was obvious opportunity.

You should absolutely expose her to the OM's wife. Maybe she can help you piece things together. Or she's just as likely to stonewall you. You can't know for sure. But it doesn't matter. You tell her regardless. That's a necessary consequence both your wife and the OM deserve - among several others. And the OM's wife deserves to know.

Since it's been so long ago, your other option is to ask your wife if she's willing to take a polygraph. Even if you eventually don't go through with it, her reaction to that question will be telling. If she agrees, have her take one. If she doesn't agree; that's one more thing that points to a PA. And... since you've caught her this time, you now have to be open to the possibility of other times with other OM's. A poly "may" help you find that out as well. As long as you understand they're not 100% accurate.

If it were me, I'd want to do everything in my power to confirm the PA - so I'd know what I'm trying to forgive.

Keep posting. You'll get a lot of good advice.


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## Q tip

Still lying and deleting eh? Cheaters are liars and minimize once found out.

What do you want? R, D, Rugsweep? You are in control. She probably does not know about emptying the wastebasket. You can probably still go there in her email's trash to recover what you already don't have.

Follow Weightlifters sig for evidence gathering.

Do not tell your W anything about your plans. 

Tell her to minimize further damage, you need a timeline and total absolute truth in detail. In Full and right now. Anything withheld no matter how bad or small will lead to further destruction of the marriage.

Get STD tested. Heck, DNA your kids. This is to shock her into how serious this is, not a debate if they are your kids or not. Its the shock value.

Hug = oral, Kiss = full on action

Start evidence gathering. Look at all apps on her phone, There are some that allow messaging without leaving footprints. get all passwords to all accounts, phone. Everywhere.

Start snooping, dont let her know you are.

Deleting is bad. Means she wants to minimize. More power on your side. Save your findings to a flash drive and elsewhere like dropbox. Make backups.

Expose when the time if right, depending on what you want to do. Your friend (maybe?) the OM. SHe can check into it on her side too. Unless she was involved ?


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## zing61

Yes although they work for the same organization, they don't work in the same office - he is in another building a couple of blocks away. Always thought there was something awkward about the way he acted around me. Guess I really am stupidly blind and trusting. Thought we had such an incredibly great marriage until 6 days ago . . .


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## the guy

zing61 said:


> Guess I really am stupidly blind and trusting. . . .


Not anymore!!!!!

We here at TAM will get you through:smthumbup:


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## Forest

Well Zing, get ready to hear all about how she felt she wasn't getting the attention and compliments from you that she needed. That doesn't mean you actually fell short in this area, just that she FELT that way. She felt this, that, the other thing, because her selfish attention meter had to have more pings. 

She didn't mean to hurt you, didn't mean to do this, didn't plan it, didn't know what she was doing, didn't know blah, blah...."It just happened". It must have been magic or something. Completely out of her control.

Your mind will drive you nuts until you sit her down and tell her as forcefully as you can the you want the truth. You deserve the truth. You stuck to the rules, she must come clean, no dithering around.

A question: How is it that these emails from so many years ago were still available?


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## tom67

zing61 said:


> Yes although they work for the same organization, they don't work in the same office - he is in another building a couple of blocks away. Always thought there was something awkward about the way he acted around me. Guess I really am stupidly blind and trusting. Thought we had such an incredibly great marriage until 6 days ago . . .


You'll be fine especially after you show his wife all the evidence it will be a huge weight lifted off your shoulders.
How she will act who knows.
In my opinion I would tell his wife before you confront her.


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## zing61

Thank you. My heart is just hammering right now . . . hardly know how to deal with this. I work at home. She will be home in an hour or so, and I am going to confront her with the e-mails and the fact that she deleted them . . .


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## badmemory

zing61 said:


> he is in another building a couple of blocks away.


That's additional "opportunity" for them meeting up - at lunch, and before or after work. They could have both called in sick the same day and met somewhere. Being two blocks away makes it even easier than being in the same office.

Everything is pointing toward a PA zing.


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## RV9

Same organization? Deleted mails? Are you sure the affair is over?


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## tom67

badmemory said:


> That's additional "opportunity" for them meeting up - at lunch, and before or after work. They could have both called in sick the same day and met somewhere. Being two blocks away makes it even easier than being in the same office.
> 
> Everything is pointing toward a PA zing.


And they don't have to email or text and leave a trail.
It could still be going on.


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## BWBill

Don't show her the emails. She will probably try to acknowledge only what she thinks you already know. 

Tell her that you know it went physical and that you are filing for divorce. See how she reacts.

If she swears innocence then give her the opportunity to tell you everything and when she has demand a poly.


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## zing61

I am positive it was a PA, despite her protestations to the contrary. Really do think it ended a while ago because of the lovesick e-mails he sent to her at the time . . . and because of the way they have kind of fallen off the radar as our friends . . . .


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## Lostinthought61

you could ask that she take a polygraph....if she says no then you have your answer...if she says yes then proceed forward she will probably break down before that


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## badmemory

What kind of e-mail program does your wife use at home? Is it solely internet based or is it on computer software like Outlook?


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## Acoa

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.

Worst: She is still having the affair. But they took it off email long ago due to fear of being found out. She loves him, and when confronted they leave to go be with each other.

Best: She really did end it years ago, and she was just too proud/embarrassed/scared to admit it.

Now, your gut is telling you it was more than an EA. The gut is usually directionally correct. So, it's safe to assume you are correct about there being more to the story. What you can't be sure of, is exactly what. For example, I discovered my wife has sexting sessions with a couple old HS friends. My gut told me there was more, but I couldn't prove it, and she denied it over and over. To the point I finally gave up on that and tried to get back into our normal routine. Only to find 2 years later she had 2 other PAs, but with totally different guys than the sexting. So, you gut is telling you something. Follow it, but don't assume you can guess what. 

Your next question is, assuming she did have the PA, are you willing to work it out with her? If you are, you have to be dead sure, 100% without a doubt that the affair is over, and there i no possibility for it to start again. That means she has to leave that job, and absolutely no contact with him again. Yeah, I'm sure there is perfectly reasonable excuse why it's a hardship on the family for her to leave the job. Too bad, that's the price paid for her affair, and yes, everyone suffers because of her selfish action. You don't want to always be wondering if she is meeting him in secret somewhere around work.

As others have said, contact OMs wife. Properly handled that contact will make her your ally in uncovering all of the details and in helping to monitor no contact. Now, if she was in on the affair, then all bets are off. But, that would proabably be evident in the tone of the email messages. My XW slept with 2 married men and made herself a close friend with their wives. I'm sure they thought she was a friend of the family. If that's the case here, you'll find out really fast. OMs wife is going to hate your wife with a vitrol that will be obvious. If OMs wife is reconcilitory and says it's all just a big mistake, or no big deal, then assume she was in on it.

Sorry you are here. Stay strong, eyes open and mouth shut until you figure out which way you want to go.


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## Melvynman

Ignorance is not bliss when it comes to infidelity or human sexual behavior. Does her infidelity really matter? Your wife is a human and if you believe in evolution she is designed to a promiscuous sexual being just like you. If she stay monogamous she will most likely become sexually dysfunctional like most married women. Don't push away a perfectly good sexually functioning women out of your life!!! The older you get the harder they are to find, over fifty sexual functioning women are a rare thing in America. If you don't believe me look into it. Medical doctor don't have a cure or even know the cause. Do you want a wife that is sexual functioning or zombie in bed? Our cultural values will lead you to divorce and shame on her. Reeducate yourself and her, take it slow do not shame her or make her feel guilty. Learn to understand her and natural instincts that by design force her to be promiscuous or sexually dysfunctional. You want a real women or a zombie in bed?


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## Q tip

the guy said:


> Not anymore!!!!!
> 
> We here at TAM will get you through:smthumbup:


While gathering more evidence, you now can play dumb and happy.

Might be just a bit early to confront. If it is still on (burner phones, late early to/from work... taking sick days from office but head to hotel... take vacation days for same reason, not tell you) - they may take it all underground further and be harder to discover. These are just thoughts.

VAR the car for a few days, then confront and keep the VAR to see who she might call.

Likely it's over, but you never know. Since its out of the bag already, VAR. Never reveal the source of your info. Ever.

Check phone bill details online, look for burner phones, VAR the car and at home wherever she usually uses. hide them well. Demand access to all online accounts, together, go into these accounts and look around. Check browser history.. Lots to do. Review check stubs for vacation sick times and dates. Do they coincide with your vacations and when she was home sick? Doctors appointments that never where. Behavior changes over past six years.. heading out for groceries and returning 3 hours later...


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## badmemory

Melvynman said:


> Ignorance is not bliss when it comes to infidelity or human sexual behavior. Does her infidelity really matter? Your wife is a human and if you believe in evolution she is designed to a promiscuous sexual being just like you. If she stay monogamous she will most likely become sexually dysfunctional like most married women. Don't push away a perfectly good sexually functioning women out of your life!!! The older you get the harder they are to find, over fifty sexual functioning women are a rare thing in America. If you don't believe me look into it. Medical doctor don't have a cure or even know the cause. Do you want a wife that is sexual functioning or zombie in bed? Our cultural values will lead you to divorce and shame on her. Reeducate yourself and her, take it slow do not shame her or make her feel guilty. Learn to understand her and natural instincts that by design force her to be promiscuous or sexually dysfunctional. You want a real women or a zombie in bed?


:lol::scratchhead:


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## Squeakr

Melvynman said:


> Ignorance is not bliss when it comes to infidelity or human sexual behavior. Does her infidelity really matter? Your wife is a human and if you believe in evolution she is designed to a promiscuous sexual being just like you. If she stay monogamous she will most likely become sexually dysfunctional like most married women. Don't push away a perfectly good sexually functioning women out of your life!!! The older you get the harder they are to find, over fifty sexual functioning women are a rare thing in America. If you don't believe me look into it. Medical doctor don't have a cure or even know the cause. Do you want a wife that is sexual functioning or zombie in bed? Our cultural values will lead you to divorce and shame on her. Reeducate yourself and her, take it slow do not shame her or make her feel guilty. Learn to understand her and natural instincts that by design force her to be promiscuous or sexually dysfunctional. You want a real women or a zombie in bed?



:scratchhead:

Is this for real??


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## tom67

Melvynman said:


> Ignorance is not bliss when it comes to infidelity or human sexual behavior. Does her infidelity really matter? Your wife is a human and if you believe in evolution she is designed to a promiscuous sexual being just like you. If she stay monogamous she will most likely become sexually dysfunctional like most married women. Don't push away a perfectly good sexually functioning women out of your life!!! The older you get the harder they are to find, over fifty sexual functioning women are a rare thing in America. If you don't believe me look into it. Medical doctor don't have a cure or even know the cause. Do you want a wife that is sexual functioning or zombie in bed? Our cultural values will lead you to divorce and shame on her. Reeducate yourself and her, take it slow do not shame her or make her feel guilty. Learn to understand her and natural instincts that by design force her to be promiscuous or sexually dysfunctional. You want a real women or a zombie in bed?


Ugh...:scratchhead:
He could always find a younger version.
But this is about lies and infidelity not a time for this right now.


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## tom67

Squeakr said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> Is this for real??


That came out of left field.:scratchhead:


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## Squeakr

tom67 said:


> Ugh...:scratchhead:
> He could always find a younger version.
> But this is about lies and infidelity not a time for this right now.


Oh but accordingly it makes all that right when she is sexually active and charged??
:scratchhead::scratchhead:


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## badmemory

This guy popped up on another thread recently. The anti-poster.


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## zing61

Her e-mail program is internet based, not computer based. 

Very hard to concentrate on work today. Haven't gotten a damn thing done. Don't feel like eating, only vomiting. Do I really move her out of our room? So very, very painful . . . .


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## snerg

Melvynman said:


> Ignorance is not bliss when it comes to infidelity or human sexual behavior. Does her infidelity really matter? Your wife is a human and if you believe in evolution she is designed to a promiscuous sexual being just like you. If she stay monogamous she will most likely become sexually dysfunctional like most married women. Don't push away a perfectly good sexually functioning women out of your life!!! The older you get the harder they are to find, over fifty sexual functioning women are a rare thing in America. If you don't believe me look into it. Medical doctor don't have a cure or even know the cause. Do you want a wife that is sexual functioning or zombie in bed? Our cultural values will lead you to divorce and shame on her. Reeducate yourself and her, take it slow do not shame her or make her feel guilty. Learn to understand her and natural instincts that by design force her to be promiscuous or sexually dysfunctional. You want a real women or a zombie in bed?


Really?

How about a real woman that doesn't cheat?

Don't make her feel guilty? Really?

Why should a person who cheated, risked everything for their own selfish desires, not be held accountable and made to feel shame or guilt?

Wow.

This has to be pure sarcasm, because I refuse to believe someone could think this way (oh I suppose a cheater could).


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## badmemory

zing61 said:


> Her e-mail program is internet based, not computer based.
> 
> Very hard to concentrate on work today. Haven't gotten a damn thing done. Don't feel like eating, only vomiting. Do I really move her out of our room? So very, very painful . . . .


Does anyone use Outlook anymore? You could have recovered all her deleted e-mails if she had a computer based e-mail.

Look zing,

Her deleting those e-mails is par for the course. Don't over react to that one thing, but do tell her it makes you even more convinced that she's trying to deceive you. Tell her you have to know what you're trying to forgive; that you have no choice but to assume it was a PA based on what you've found. Then bring up the poly.


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## Q tip

zing61 said:


> I am positive it was a PA, despite her protestations to the contrary. Really do think it ended a while ago because of the lovesick e-mails he sent to her at the time . . . and because of the way they have kind of fallen off the radar as our friends . . . .


Because they went underground further? New ways to communicate?? Why would he stop if he had access to easy puzzy? assuming PA that is. worst case.


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## tom67

zing61 said:


> Her e-mail program is internet based, not computer based.
> 
> Very hard to concentrate on work today. Haven't gotten a damn thing done. Don't feel like eating, only vomiting. Do I really move her out of our room? So very, very painful . . . .


Get those protein shakes try those.
It's your call on the room situation.
Can you find a cheap motel for a few nights?


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## Squeakr

The question is, if it truly was over why is she keeping the emails for all these years???

Odd that now she deletes them after you find them. It is almost like she planned it this way (since you knew her password and had access).


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## Q tip

You can recover deleted text from most smart phones. What phone does she have? iPhone? simple.


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## Cubby

Melvynman said:


> Ignorance is not bliss when it comes to infidelity or human sexual behavior. Does her infidelity really matter? Your wife is a human and if you believe in evolution she is designed to a promiscuous sexual being just like you. If she stay monogamous she will most likely become sexually dysfunctional like most married women. Don't push away a perfectly good sexually functioning women out of your life!!! The older you get the harder they are to find, over fifty sexual functioning women are a rare thing in America. If you don't believe me look into it. Medical doctor don't have a cure or even know the cause. Do you want a wife that is sexual functioning or zombie in bed? Our cultural values will lead you to divorce and shame on her. Reeducate yourself and her, take it slow do not shame her or make her feel guilty. Learn to understand her and natural instincts that by design force her to be promiscuous or sexually dysfunctional. You want a real women or a zombie in bed?


Oh, I get it....Coping with Infidelity......with more infidelity!!! You hear that guys? Encourage your wives to fook other guys so she stays, like, good in bed. Sexually functioning. Not a zombie. Haha.


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## tom67

Just an idea on Thursday if you can when they are at work go to the omw and show her some of what you have since you work from home.
That may help you feel better also.


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## bandit.45

tom67 said:


> That came out of left field.:scratchhead:


It's good for TAM to get psycho-bombed every once in a while. Keeps us on our toes.


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## Q tip

If she has Facebook, LOOK quick. Check archived/Deleted messages.

PermaBan her from facebook.


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## Squeakr

Cubby said:


> Oh, I get it....Coping with Infidelity......with more infidelity!!! You hear that guys? Encourage your wives to fook other guys so she stays, like, good in bed. Sexually functioning. Not a zombie. Haha.


They say the way to a mans heart is through his stomach, I guess this is the best path to a woman's heart???


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## Q tip

Cubby said:


> Oh, I get it....Coping with Infidelity......with more infidelity!!! You hear that guys? Encourage your wives to fook other guys so she stays, like, good in bed. Sexually functioning. Not a zombie. Haha.


Some creeps are to simply be ignored.


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## Q tip

OP

Start a strategy, Plan. You have control over this. Dont confront too early. Plan. What you want. What you desire. She gets no vote in the matter. She lost her vote when she stepped away from her marriage. She needs to earn your trust. Her actions NOT words matter. She has all the heavy lifting to do. She chose to do what she did. You never forced her to.

She has bad boundaries. He was probably very smooth. Friend'ed her and kept at her until she slowly responded. Innocently... Slippery slope... She needs to walk you through all of this. in toal honesty.

Read Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011 by Athol Kay. Will help improve you regardless of this outcome. Great read for all guys, married or single. Will explain a lot to you.


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## zing61

Squeakr said:


> The question is, if it truly was over why is she keeping the emails for all these years???
> 
> Odd that now she deletes them after you find them. It is almost like she planned it this way (since you knew her password and had access).


This e-mail account is not very active. It is an old Yahoo account. We have a joint e-mail account that we use most of the time together. Then, I use my work account and she uses hers. I am asking for her phone tonight - and her work e-mail password. I really think that she just forgot about the e-mails in that account. I went in and put in his name and voila! all of the e-mails to and from him in 2007 and 2008 appeared. I also wouldn't put it past her to think she had already deleted a lot of them.

Also, confession time here: I think it was about this same time that I saw an e-mail she had left up on the computer to him that hadn't been sent yet - it was talking about "feelings". I told her at the time that I thought it was inappropriate for her and he to be talking like that and then just assumed that was the end of it. I really was (am) almost willfully blind and in love with her . . . .


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## badmemory

One other suggestion zing,

I understand it's hard to control your emotions, but you need to approach her calmly. 

And, if the only other thing you know now is that she deleted those e-mails; that's not important enough that you have to confront her again today.

You might want to wait another day or two to put your thoughts together, calm down, and get more advice.


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## zing61

Q tip said:


> You can recover deleted text from most smart phones. What phone does she have? iPhone? simple.



She does have an iPhone. How to do this?


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## phillybeffandswiss

Squeakr said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> Is this for real??





badmemory said:


> :lol::scratchhead:





tom67 said:


> Ugh...:scratchhead:
> He could always find a younger version.
> But this is about lies and infidelity not a time for this right now.





tom67 said:


> That came out of left field.:scratchhead:





badmemory said:


> This guy popped up on another thread recently. The anti-poster.


The poster often likes to quote an old JAMA study, tell men all women are tramps and be happy they share sex with you because 43% of them are sexually dysfunctional.
Once I read the article and realized how poorly he interprets the facts, I laugh every time he(?) posts.


Melvynman said:


> I am going to give some "out of left field" insight about women; 43% of women are sexually dysfunctional. 54% of married women have affairs. That means 97% of married women either are having affairs or are sexually dysfunctional, only 3% have healthy enjoyable sex with their husbands.
> 
> Your wife is extremely normal. No licensed MC is going to tell you what I am about to tell you! If you can keep her monogamous to protect your ego she will become sexually dysfunctional! For the last few thousand years since the invention of agriculture we have been try to keep women monogamous. Women are not by design monogamous animals. Your wife is fighting her internal instincts, human evolution designed her to be promiscuous. Ignorance is not bliss when it comes humans sexuality. If you want a sexually healthy women in your life your going to have re-educate yourself and do some soul searching. We are damaging women and ruing family by insisting women be monogamous, when they can't be monogamous and sexually healthy for life! 97% can't do it! Good luck.


97% is wrong because, first and foremost, you DO NOT add percentages from different studies together to get a total amount.

Sorry for the derail.


----------



## Squeakr

Don't beat yourself up. Many of us have been in your shoes and shared the same sentiments. You did nothing wrong, this is all on her.


----------



## tom67

zing61 said:


> This e-mail account is not very active. It is an old Yahoo account. We have a joint e-mail account that we use most of the time together. Then, I use my work account and she uses hers. I am asking for her phone tonight - and her work e-mail password. I really think that she just forgot about the e-mails in that account. I went in and put in his name and voila! all of the e-mails to and from him in 2007 and 2008 appeared. I also wouldn't put it past her to think she had already deleted a lot of them.
> 
> Also, confession time here: I think it was about this same time that I saw an e-mail she had left up on the computer to him that hadn't been sent yet - it was talking about "feelings". I told her at the time that I thought it was inappropriate for her and he to be talking like that and then just assumed that was the end of it. I really was (am) almost willfully blind and in love with her . . . .


You've got this keep it together as best you can.
No crying in front of her if she doesn't admit to anymore polygraph time.


----------



## Q tip

badmemory said:


> One other suggestion zing,
> 
> I understand it's hard to control your emotions, but you need to approach her calmly.
> 
> And, if the only other thing you know now is that she deleted those e-mails; that's not important enough that you have to confront her again today.
> 
> You might want to wait another day or two to put your thoughts together, calm down, and get more advice.


Absolutely. Be rock steady, calm. Do not ease up. You are a man. Do this like a man.


----------



## zing61

badmemory said:


> One other suggestion zing,
> 
> I understand it's hard to control your emotions, but you need to approach her calmly.
> 
> And, if the only other thing you know now is that she deleted those e-mails; that's not important enough that you have to confront her again today.
> 
> You might want to wait another day or two to put your thoughts together, calm down, and get more advice.


Yeah. The problem is I was on a camping trip with her, my son, my dad and my siblings where I felt like we had to act at least semi-normal. I mean, guys, she is fun! People like her, ****, I like her. So, I stayed calm for five days, and now I feel the need to DO something . . .


----------



## tom67

zing61 said:


> She does have an iPhone. How to do this?


PM a guy here named Gus Polinski he is the iphone guru.


----------



## Squeakr

Q tip said:


> Absolutely. Be rock steady, calm. Do not ease up. You are a man. Do this like a man.


Sorry but men are human and have feelings and emotions. We are not robots and there is nothing wrong with showing them. Would you tell the same to your fellow soldier whom is crying over the body of his fellow soldier(the only time that would be the best is if the fight still is on, but if things are calm, people need to grieve. Believe me I have been there and there is no shame in it.)?

React in whatever way works best for you. It doesn't matter if someone judges you weak for this, whom are they to you and what does their opinion of thing matters. You need to do what is best for you, and if this is being cold, calculating, and calm, then be it. If it means you need to go off by yourself and curl up and cry, then do that. Whatever helps YOUR mind and gets it right is what is best for you.


----------



## tom67

zing61 said:


> Yeah. The problem is I was on a camping trip with her, my son, my dad and my siblings where I felt like we had to act at least semi-normal. I mean, guys, she is fun! People like her, ****, I like her. So, I stayed calm for five days, and now I feel the need to DO something . . .


Contact his wife first then you might get more info.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

zing61 said:


> Yeah. The problem is I was on a camping trip with her, my son, my dad and my siblings where I felt like we had to act at least semi-normal. I mean, guys, she is fun! People like her, ****, I like her. So, I stayed calm for five days, and now I feel the need to DO something . . .


Very normal when your perceived reality has just been ruptured. 

Sorry you are here..


----------



## Q tip

zing61 said:


> She does have an iPhone. How to do this?


Do a backup with itunes of her iphone to your PC. DO NOT use a password to save backup.

I use the free version of Aiseesoft called FoneLab (cannot save, just do screen prints. Saves money).

http://www.aiseesoft.com/iphone-data-recovery/

The iphone has a simple database type system that holds data.

Using FoneLab, you can recover from iOS Device or from iTunes Backupfile. Since you did the backup ---

- Select Recover from iTunes.
- Select the device to recover from the menu
- FoneLab will rebuild the backup into selections for recovering
Photos 
Photo Stream 
Contacts
Messages
Message Attachments
Call History
Calendar
Notes
Voice Memos
Safari Bookmarks.

You can select to see everything or Only Display Deleted items.

If you do screen captures, save them. If you purchase Fonelab you can recover the files to a folder you select.

I recommend you do the backup to itunes secretly, then spend what time you need on the PC with the backup. that way the phone wont go missing for long.

Again, she should not know anything about this.


----------



## Squeakr

Q tip said:


> Do a backup with itunes of her iphone to your PC.
> 
> I use the free version of Aiseesoft called FoneLab (cannot save, just do screen prints. Saves money).
> 
> The iphone is a simple database type system that holds data.
> 
> Using FoneLab, you can recover from iOS Device or from iTunes Backupfile. Since you did the backup ---
> 
> - Select Recover from iTunes.
> - FoneLab will rebuild the backup into selections for recovering
> Photos
> Photo Stream
> Contacts
> Messages
> Message Attachments
> Call History
> Calendar
> Notes
> Voice Memos
> Safari Bookmarks.
> 
> You can select Only Display Deleted items or everything.
> 
> If you do screen captures, save them If you purchase Fonelab you can recover the files to a folder you select.


You are only allowed one backup type per device, so if it is already backed up to another computer, unfortunately this may wipe all of the data from the device so tread lightly here and heed all warnings offered by the software (namely iTunes).

Also keep in mind that the IOS system runs a periodic clean routine and deleted items are marked as unaccessible and the memory slots marked as available and written over by new data. It could happen quickly or could take days, but this would be dependant upon the amount the exchanges occurring dsince the time the text/email was deleted and the amount of free space available as lower free space decreases the time of availability for deleted items.

I like wondershare's software.

You can also recover from iCloud backups if you have access.


----------



## Q tip

Squeakr said:


> You are only allowed one backup type per device, so if it is already backed up to another computer, unfortunately this may wipe all of the data from the device so tread lightly here and heed all warnings offered by the software (namely iTunes).
> 
> Also keep in mind that the IOS system runs a periodic clean routine and deleted items are marked as unaccessible and the memory slots marked as available and written over by new data. It could happen quickly or could take days, but this would be dependant upon the amount the exchanges occurring dsince the time the text/email was deleted and the amount of free space available as lower free space decreases the time of availability for deleted items.
> 
> I like wondershare's software.
> 
> You can also recover from iCloud backups if you have access.


True. Ive recovered complete Text messages stream from over a year and a half ago, and partial messages from 6 months ago. The more memory the iphone has, the more likely full messages might be recovered.


----------



## Q tip

OP, search for OMs phone number on her iphone with searchlight. It is possible she uses a girls name not his in her contacts list. 

Or has it memorized - Cell phone bill will show these calls.


----------



## LongWalk

Don't tell her you have emails.

They are your fact base. You catch her out in lies because she will not understand how much you know.

OM's wife may be able to get a confession or more evidence to compare notes with you.


----------



## Q tip

LongWalk said:


> Don't tell her you have emails.
> 
> They are your fact base. You catch her out in lies because she will not understand how much you know.
> 
> OM's wife may be able to get a confession or more evidence to compare notes with you.


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: 

Mega Like. This is chess not checkers.


----------



## Buddy400

zing61 said:


> I THOUGHT she had been a tremendous wife and mother all of these years - I really did think she was a great person, and a tremendous partner. Our two children are 19 and 21 and out of the house and doing well. Don't know that I want to reconcile with somebody who might do this to me again in the future - no matter how gorgeous she is - and she is a drop-dead beautiful athletic woman - and I can't emphasize enough how kind and decent she otherwise is to me and to all of our friends.
> 
> Any advice? Thanks so much for letting me get this down - even just writing this has helped.


I'm going to go against the grain and get every single person in CWI furious with me (don't bother ripping me, just tell zing why I'm wrong). 

It was 6-7 years ago. She ended it (EA or PA) years ago. There hasn't been any sign of similar behavior since. Other than this single, massive, failure she's been an exceptional wife. What are the chances that your life improves after divorcing her?

Confront her. Tell her that you are certain that it was a PA as well. If she's consumed with remorse and is desperately wants to save the marriage, try to reconcile. Set up rules for transparency and try to enjoy the rest of your life. 

I don't know what I'd do about discovering if it was a PA, if I was hell bent on reconciliation, I think I'd rather not know so that I could more easily fool myself into believing that it wasn't. 

I don't see the point of exposure (and this is really going to piss of other posters) if the affair is long over. It makes sense to me if it's on-going and you want to end it.

Just giving you a different opinion that any others that you'll get here.

Now, I'm going to go hide where no one can find me.


----------



## Q tip

Buddy400 said:


> I'm going to go against the grain and get every single person in CWI furious with me (don't bother ripping me, just tell zing why I'm wrong).
> 
> It was 6-7 years ago. She ended it (EA or PA) years ago. There hasn't been any sign of similar behavior since. Other than this single, massive, failure she's been an exceptional wife. What are the chances that your life improves after divorcing her?
> 
> Confront her. Tell her that you are certain that it was a PA as well. If she's consumed with remorse and is desperately wants to save the marriage, try to reconcile. Set up rules for transparency and try to enjoy the rest of your life.
> 
> I don't know what I'd do about discovering if it was a PA, if I was hell bent on reconciliation, I think I'd rather not know so that I could more easily fool myself into believing that it wasn't.
> 
> I don't see the point of exposure (and this is really going to piss of other posters) if the affair is long over. It makes sense to me if it's on-going and you want to end it.
> 
> Just giving you a different opinion that any others that you'll get here.
> 
> Now, I'm going to go hide where no one can find me.


A fair point sir. OP needs to understand all his options.

He has just undergone a life changing experience brought on by a loved one. It is a betrayal.

To HER it was years ago. To him HIS DDAY is now.

His mind movies, his pain. Extraordinary, indescribable pain.


----------



## clipclop2

my suggestion is not to confront her until you have a VAR in her car. Because she is surely going to reach out to the other man. she probably has already but when you confront her with more information they are probably going to touch base again so that they can synchronize their stories.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## clipclop2

tom67 said:


> That came out of left field.:scratchhead:


Mach? is that you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## clipclop2

if there were emails there may also be pictures. and they might still be out there either as the actual files for temp files so if you can run an undelete program or programme on the hard drive you might turn up some interesting things. 

and if she deleted things from the hard drive she might not have remember to clean out the recycle bin. So you can either log on as her and look in the recycle bin or log on as an administrator and from the command prompt go into the individual recycle bin and recover the files from there directly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## IIJokerII

Your best bet is to lie low and wait, be patient. Since you discovered this information she will eventually, if not already, reach out to the OM for damage control purposes as to make sure they get their stories straight if, or when, the time comes. One person lying to you with sincerity is tough to deal with but 2 people is hard to resist, and your psyche will be tempted to lean toward belief then it will doubt. 

If she has multiple media devices, focus on one while ignoring the other, but ensure you bugged it with spyware first, and she'll gravitate to this item far more if not strictly. Sooner or later she'll also relax her deletion of texts and emails once the effort becomes to taxing to continue.

Patience, diligence and calmness will best camouflage your efforts as you aim to find the smoking gun, not the bullet casing.


----------



## VFW

zing61 said:


> Yeah. The problem is I was on a camping trip with her, my son, my dad and my siblings where I felt like we had to act at least semi-normal. I mean, guys, she is fun! People like her, ****, I like her. So, I stayed calm for five days, and now I feel the need to DO something . . .


Firstly, I am sorry that you are in this situation. Secondly, I applaud you for trying to find the truth and not sweeping it under the rug as many would do. You are going to be riding an emotional roller coaster for little while. Because of this you are going to be going back and forth between knowing what to do. My advise is to try to get as much information as you can, but don't make any long range decisions, until emotions settle a bit. Nothing has to be settled immediately.

I believe that most relationships can be repaired, but it is based on the premise that the WS is contrite and starts being completely open and honest with the BS. You need to tell her that she must not sugar coat things to diminish her involvement or to save your feelings. She needs to know this is nothing more than lying and is a slap in the face to you. You will need a timeline of events, so that you can compare against other information you already have obtained. 

After you have obtained as much truth as you can, then you need to consider counseling. The counselor can work as the fair broker in mending the relationship. Don't sweep issues under the rug, they have to be dealt with before the fester and cause even more damage.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Q tip said:


> If she has Facebook, LOOK quick. Check archived/Deleted messages.
> 
> PermaBan her from facebook.


I was just thinking this... And granted I'm only half way thru the thread.

The emails may have died off years ago because less of us use email as a means of Social communication. Check her facebook, IMs, texts, imessages. 

Do you have access to her facebook account? Is she friends with the guy? From her account, call up his page, and then try to send him a message. You won't actually send a message. But when you do this, any undeleted conversations she had with him pop up.

Do the same on his wife's page.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just got it 55

Buddy400 said:


> I'm going to go against the grain and get every single person in CWI furious with me (don't bother ripping me, just tell zing why I'm wrong).
> 
> It was 6-7 years ago. She ended it (EA or PA) years ago. There hasn't been any sign of similar behavior since. Other than this single, massive, failure she's been an exceptional wife. What are the chances that your life improves after divorcing her?
> 
> Confront her. Tell her that you are certain that it was a PA as well. If she's consumed with remorse and is desperately wants to save the marriage, try to reconcile. Set up rules for transparency and try to enjoy the rest of your life.
> 
> I don't know what I'd do about discovering if it was a PA, if I was hell bent on reconciliation, I think I'd rather not know so that I could more easily fool myself into believing that it wasn't.
> 
> I don't see the point of exposure (and this is really going to piss of other posters) if the affair is long over. It makes sense to me if it's on-going and you want to end it.
> 
> Just giving you a different opinion that any others that you'll get here.
> 
> Now, I'm going to go hide where no one can find me.


Buddy you know the Red Pill Blue Pill thing Right?:scratchhead:

55


----------



## PhillyGuy13

tom67 said:


> PM a guy here named Gus Polinski he is the iphone guru.


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/209754-standard-evidence-post.html

Some of the iPhone stuff is outdated.

Zing- what software version is on her phone 7.0, 8.0. Etc. Added headaches with security on the 8.0 that recently released.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sidney2718

Forest said:


> Well Zing, get ready to hear all about how she felt she wasn't getting the attention and compliments from you that she needed. That doesn't mean you actually fell short in this area, just that she FELT that way. She felt this, that, the other thing, because her selfish attention meter had to have more pings.
> 
> She didn't mean to hurt you, didn't mean to do this, didn't plan it, didn't know what she was doing, didn't know blah, blah...."It just happened". It must have been magic or something. Completely out of her control.
> 
> Your mind will drive you nuts until you sit her down and tell her as forcefully as you can the you want the truth. You deserve the truth. You stuck to the rules, she must come clean, no dithering around.


I agree. You have to let her know that she's got to come clean NOW. That you are more apt to be forgiving if you know the entire story. But if she doesn't tell all, there is no chance for a reconciliation.

This will be a very difficult meeting, but you HAVE to do it or you will never get over this.

And by the way, back up your evidence onto a thumb drive and keep the thumb drive someplace out of the house.

You might print out ONE of the more suggestive e-mails and save it to show to her to prove that you know more than she thinks. And remind her that this may be an old story to her, but it is brand new to you.

What you do next depends on how the conversation comes out.


----------



## sidney2718

tom67 said:


> You'll be fine especially after you show his wife all the evidence it will be a huge weight lifted off your shoulders.
> How she will act who knows.
> In my opinion I would tell his wife before you confront her.


Do NOT show her all the evidence. It is the only check you have on what she says and if she's telling the truth. As I posted above, you might show her ONE of the e-mails to prove that you do have information.


----------



## sidney2718

zing61 said:


> I am positive it was a PA, despite her protestations to the contrary. Really do think it ended a while ago because of the lovesick e-mails he sent to her at the time . . . and because of the way they have kind of fallen off the radar as our friends . . . .


That's fine. But she still has to tell you everything.


----------



## Buddy400

just got it 55 said:


> Buddy you know the Red Pill Blue Pill thing Right?:scratchhead:
> 
> 55


Yes, and I believe and employ 90% of it.

But.. this was 6-7 years ago. She's been an exceptional wife. If I'm ever going to cut someone a break, this might be the situation.


----------



## tom67

Buddy400 said:


> Yes, and I believe and employ 90% of it.
> 
> But.. this was 6-7 years ago. She's been an exceptional wife. If I'm ever going to cut someone a break, this might be the situation.


Buddy it was years ago but this is 6 days old for him don't forget that his head is spinning.


----------



## Chaparral

If you haven't already confronted, hold off. You need to get vars in place first.

Put as much pressure on her as possible,.leave then check the vars later.

There are many long term affairs so current communications may only be through work. Sounds like it is over though.

Do not tell her you are going to talk to his wife.

Try to pressure her into revealing something. For example, you can't believe they didn't kiss from what you read. I doubt she reread all the emails but even if she did she will fear you are reading between the lines. Hold on to that one fact like a junk yard dog. If she finally admits that, you have the trickle truth started.

Make her sit down and write a timeline of everything. Who, who knew, what, where, when. Do not accept an equivicating. Your all in now or will suffer much worse.

Given the length of time involved you are likely to have to insist on a polygraph. Tell her you simply can't trust her now. Its polygraph or divorce with everyone knowing what she did. Even if you coerce a parking lot confession, make her go through with it. Cheaters may confess but still lie about even worse things.

See a doctor for a little temporary help. Unfortunately,.they are seeing more and more of this.

Work out, lift weights, read MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER linked below. You can also download it immediately at amazon.com.

You will get through this and prevail.


----------



## Buddy400

tom67 said:


> Buddy it was years ago but this is 6 days old for him don't forget that his head is spinning.


Oh, I understand and sympathize. I'm not underestimating his pain. But, the difference between my wife doing this 6-7 years ago, stopping of her own accord, being an overall excellent wife and discovering an active affair (even if she was willing to end it) are worlds apart. They're both really sh!tty worlds; but they're far apart in my mind.


----------



## Chaparral

Buddy400 said:


> Yes, and I believe and employ 90% of it.
> 
> But.. this was 6-7 years ago. She's been an exceptional wife. If I'm ever going to cut someone a break, this might be the situation.


Put all thoughts of reconcilliation or divorce out of your mind for now. Just keep getting he information. Do not let up on her. She will want to rug sweep. It will also give her carte blanc, in her mind,for another affair and to play you. Making it easy on you will make her lose more respect for you. Women cheaters think you should have realized something was wrong with her and kept her from having an affair.

At this point in time she may know it ws all her. But, cheaters rarely take the blame. This was all your fault at least back then.

How has your sex life changed over the years? This IS important.


----------



## tom67

ConanHub said:


> P.S. If anyone really thinks this didn't go physical..... Just wait.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## Buddy400

ConanHub said:


> My definition of an "exceptional" wife is not a woman that thinks it is funny to fvck other men until she got tired of it and had so little respect for me that she could come right home and fvck me without even a glitch in her emotions? Then casually drop the affair never bothering her conscious enough to confess? Then when caught, trickle truth and try and cover her tracks by deleting anything that could incriminate her?
> 
> Why yes, she sounds like a real prize!
> 
> Oh wait. Actually, I am married to an exceptional woman and OPs wife is not fit to lick her shoes!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I really should have put "otherwise" in front of "been an exceptional wife". My bad. Now, let's try to stick to telling zing why he shouldn't listen to me.


----------



## 6301

Look. The cats out of the bag. She knows your on to her so pasting a smile on your face and pretending that all's well in your household ain't going to work. 

She's already talked to this guy and you can take it to the bank on that. In the mean time your on pins and needles and working yourself up in to a good lather so the time for playing games is over and now were in the hardball stage.

First thing you have to do is think about yourself and not her feelings or how this affects her. She showed her cards by having an affair so that tells you that she was only thinking about herself.

If it was me, I call the OM wife and fill her in and if need be, give her a copy of the e mails the exchanged.

Next thing is let your wife know that your setting up an appointment for a polygraph, and she's going to take it. Let her know that if she refuses then she may as well pack up and move out. Let her know she has one chance and only one and if she fails the test then she better find a good lawyer and a real estate agent for a new place to live.

There's no sense in playing mind games when you in this situation. It does you no good. I would also move her clothes in to a spare room and tell her that the master bedroom is off limits until the test is completed and she passes.

What it comes down to is this. She hung her dirty laundry around your neck and it's time you give it back to who it belongs to. it's hers, she wears it.

Don't play nice guy with her because you saw where nice guy got you. Not to mention, her actions and behavior should tell you that she isn't playing nice with you. The only way you get to the bottom of this mess is for her to take responsibility for her actions and your the only one that can do it. She caused this mess. it's up to her to make it right. 

Again, let the OM wife know whats going on so she can deal with him and take the bull by the horns.


----------



## tom67

6301 said:


> Look. The cats out of the bag. She knows your on to her so pasting a smile on your face and pretending that all's well in your household ain't going to work.
> 
> She's already talked to this guy and you can take it to the bank on that. In the mean time your on pins and needles and working yourself up in to a good lather so the time for playing games is over and now were in the hardball stage.
> 
> First thing you have to do is think about yourself and not her feelings or how this affects her. She showed her cards by having an affair so that tells you that she was only thinking about herself.
> 
> If it was me, I call the OM wife and fill her in and if need be, give her a copy of the e mails the exchanged.
> 
> Next thing is let your wife know that your setting up an appointment for a polygraph, and she's going to take it. Let her know that if she refuses then she may as well pack up and move out. Let her know she has one chance and only one and if she fails the test then she better find a good lawyer and a real estate agent for a new place to live.
> 
> There's no sense in playing mind games when you in this situation. It does you no good. I would also move her clothes in to a spare room and tell her that the master bedroom is off limits until the test is completed and she passes.
> 
> What it comes down to is this. She hung her dirty laundry around your neck and it's time you give it back to who it belongs to. it's hers, she wears it.
> 
> Don't play nice guy with her because you saw where nice guy got you. Not to mention, her actions and behavior should tell you that she isn't playing nice with you. The only way you get to the bottom of this mess is for her to take responsibility for her actions and your the only one that can do it. She caused this mess. it's up to her to make it right.
> 
> Again, let the OM wife know whats going on so she can deal with him and take the bull by the horns.



Read this over and over we know you are hurting but you have to do what 6301, I and others have said.
Again if you have to get away from her take a few days.


----------



## Squeakr

Buddy400 said:


> ConanHub said:
> 
> 
> 
> My definition of an "exceptional" wife is not a woman that thinks it is funny to fvck other men until she got tired of it and had so little respect for me that she could come right home and fvck me without even a glitch in her emotions? Then casually drop the affair never bothering her conscious enough to confess? Then when caught, trickle truth and try and cover her tracks by deleting anything that could incriminate her?
> 
> Why yes, she sounds like a real prize!
> 
> Oh wait. Actually, I am married to an exceptional woman and OPs wife is not fit to lick her shoes!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> 
> 
> I really should have put "otherwise" in front of "been an exceptional wife". My bad. Now, let's try to stick to telling zing why he shouldn't listen to me.
Click to expand...

Doesn't matter how you preface it, she was the same "exceptional" wife while having the affair so why even bring it up right? How do we know it ever stopped and didn't just move under ground or on your someone else? After I discovered the affairs in my marriage I found through discovery that they had stopped for 10 years prior then started up again out if the blue. Should I forget about them as there was a period that I wasn't being cheated on, and the everyday actions were the same whether an affair was happening or not, so how do we judge good and bad behavior when it was all the same behavior during before and after affairs?


----------



## tom67

Squeakr said:


> Doesn't matter how you preface it, she was the same "exceptional" wife while having the affair so why even bring it up right? How do we know it ever stopped and didn't just move under ground or on your someone else? After I discovered the affairs in my marriage I found through discovery that they had stopped for 10 years prior then started up again out if the blue. Should I forget about them as there was a period that I wasn't being cheated on, and the everyday actions were the same whether an affair was happening or not, so how do we judge good and bad behavior when it was all the same behavior during before and after affairs?


He has to find out EXACTLY what he is forgiving her for.


----------



## TRy

zing61 said:


> I am positive it was a PA, despite her protestations to the contrary. Really do think it ended a while ago because of the lovesick e-mails he sent to her at the time . . .  and because of the way they have kind of fallen off the radar as our friends . . . .


 When you confront her, tell her "I know for sure that the affair was physical, what I want to know is did you let it go physical because you were in love with him?" Ask this question and the shut up. There may be a log period of silence but wait it out. The first one to speak loses. If she answers that she was or was not in love with him, she would also be confirming that it was physical. If she tries to say that it was not physical, do not argue; tell her "I do not need to convince you to admit the truth take action. After all this deception, you answering this question honestly is the only chance that you have to try to save this marriage, so I will asking you again, I know for sure that the affair was physical, what I want to know is did you let it go physical because you were in love with him?" Again shut up. No matter how she answers, never every tell her how you know.


----------



## Welsh15

zing61 said:


> Her e-mail program is internet based, not computer based.
> 
> Very hard to concentrate on work today. Haven't gotten a damn thing done. Don't feel like eating, only vomiting. Do I really move her out of our room? So very, very painful . . . .


Show her consequences. Tell her to get out of your room. Seriously. Do it.


----------



## Decorum

She may have been in a bad place, but her decisions have just put you in a very bad place. (She should be able to relate to that, seriously!)

Her actions in her "bad place" were so disrespectful and showed such disregard for you, it is really shocking.

Her actions put you in perhaps a worse place and you are relatively powerless (at the moment) to get out of it. It will take time and work on your part (whether you divorce or reconcile), not to mention probably counseling and perhaps medication none of which would be uncommon.

She dealt with her problem in a way that coul only gut you, they dont usually consider the consequences, but the consequences are all too real as you now know, she has to step up and be the woman you need her to be.

She could have put in that time and work up front (i.e. counseling, communication etc), and have earned your respect even more, and spared you this, as well as spared Om's wife and family. Instead her therapy was infidelity.

She chose to cheat, perhaps the affair ran it course, or she realized he would not divorce his wife and marry her, perhaps she did not want to cause that much trauma to her life and she chose to end it (if she did) and what?. Stick it out? Try to make up for it? Do the right thing?
Maybe she realized you were the only man she really wanted, IDK.

She may not have meant to hurt you but she was willing to take the risk. 

Curently it would seem she would rather lie than face the consequences, even at the risk of you not knowing all the truth and perpetuating your suffering.

She probably does not realize how hurtful any more lies are going to be, I hope you make it clear that if anything kills your respect and love for her and the chance of reconciling the marriage it will be the ongoing lying and deception.

I think you may be able to help her understand the need for complete honesty.

I am sorry for what you are going through and hope you can find a healthy way through it.

I have nothing more to add to the previous advice other than my endorsement, i.e. Collect info, don’t reveal everything, tell OM’s wife etc .

I really do wish you well.

Take care!


----------



## larry.gray

Buddy400 said:


> Oh, I understand and sympathize. I'm not underestimating his pain. But, the difference between my wife doing this 6-7 years ago, stopping of her own accord, being an overall excellent wife and discovering an active affair (even if she was willing to end it) are worlds apart. They're both really sh!tty worlds; but they're far apart in my mind.


So the fact that she managed to successfully lie for 6 years and make a fool of him the whole time is an improvement?


----------



## tom67

larry.gray said:


> So the fact that she managed to successfully lie for 6 years and make a fool of him the whole time is an improvement?


No let's forget about that.


----------



## Sports Fan

You can bet your bottom dollar that their affair was physical. Dont believe a word she says. Cheaters once caught out always try to minimise the damage.

In your case she claims it was just sexting. If you keep pushing you will later be told that they just kissed, that she gave him oral, and long and behold eventually she will confess to sex, albeit it just happened once or twice. Usual script here.

There must be consequences for her actions. Her turning on the tap of sex is her way of manipulating you and making you forget her indiscretion. Be very clear to her that you wont be maipulated through sex. Cause if she works out that you can be manipulated this way she will forever use it for future indescretions.

Finally tell the other mans wife, confront him, and demand that your wife quit the job. Also she must cease all contact with them both.

If she is not willing to do this see a good lawyer and get the ball rolling on Divorce.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Buddy400 said:


> Oh, I understand and sympathize. I'm not underestimating his pain. But, the difference between my wife doing this 6-7 years ago, stopping of her own accord, being an overall excellent wife and discovering an active affair (even if she was willing to end it) are worlds apart. They're both really sh!tty worlds; but they're far apart in my mind.


They are the same world, but different time zones.


----------



## lordmayhem

Buddy400 said:


> Yes, and I believe and employ 90% of it.
> 
> But.. this was 6-7 years ago. She's been an exceptional wife. If I'm ever going to cut someone a break, this might be the situation.


The problem is he does not have definite evidence of when the affair started and even if it really ended. That is his current estimate based on the old emails. 

Fact:


They work for the same company, just a few buildings away
He doesn't have the full story, only trickle truth so far
She destroyed evidence

The most devious cheaters are those who have learned to compartmentalize their affair life from their married life - they appear to be the perfect husband/wife. The OP didn't really suspect years ago because she was being the perfect wife. This indicates that she's a skillful liar.

She claimed to want to do anything to save the marriage, yet her actions and lack of actions have proven otherwise. She destroyed evidence, and has yet to even provide full transparency. What she seems to be doing is a rug sweep. 

Besides there are no statutes of limitations on infidelity. Whether it happened yesterday or 25 years ago doesn't make a difference for a BS. In the four years I've been here, there have been threads of BSs finding out affairs that happened 25 years ago and are just as devastated as those who find out about an affair currently in progress. 

And even if the affair supposedly ended years ago, that still means that the last 6-7 years have been a LIE. So I have to disagree, pretending to be the exception husband/wife should NOT be a free pass when it comes to infidelity and should not be a reason to rugsweep this.

In my universe, exceptional wives aren't cheaters.


----------



## BobSimmons

Melvynman said:


> Ignorance is not bliss when it comes to infidelity or human sexual behavior. Does her infidelity really matter? Your wife is a human and if you believe in evolution she is designed to a promiscuous sexual being just like you. If she stay monogamous she will most likely become sexually dysfunctional like most married women. Don't push away a perfectly good sexually functioning women out of your life!!! The older you get the harder they are to find, over fifty sexual functioning women are a rare thing in America. If you don't believe me look into it. Medical doctor don't have a cure or even know the cause. Do you want a wife that is sexual functioning or zombie in bed? Our cultural values will lead you to divorce and shame on her. Reeducate yourself and her, take it slow do not shame her or make her feel guilty. Learn to understand her and natural instincts that by design force her to be promiscuous or sexually dysfunctional. You want a real women or a zombie in bed?


This cannot be real. Seriously?


----------



## happyman64

Zing

Get the truth. Settle for nothing less.

I do think you need to look in her iPhone.

I also think you need to contact the OM's wife. Maybe his wife is aware of their relationship. Maybe his wife was involved with their relationship.

Discuss the emails that you found. Do not tell your wife you are doing this.

I also think you should schedule a polygraph for your wife without her knowing about it.

Then drive her there and break the news about the polygraph right in the parking lot.

Why all the surprises? Because she has lied to you. She is lying to you. She is still covering up her affair by deleting the emails.

So start showing her consequences.

And having sex with her is quite normal. Google the term "hysterical bonding".

listen to the crew here. And act.

HM


----------



## PhillyGuy13

The only thing that ended 6-7 years ago was the corresponding on the old email account.

He has ZERO proof of when or if anything else ended, including the affair.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

PhillyGuy13 said:


> The only thing that ended 6-7 years ago was the corresponding on the old email account.
> 
> He has ZERO proof of when or if anything else ended, including the affair.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



He believes it was over because of what the OM was emailing her. Sounds like the OM was trying to talk her into continuing the affair and she wasn't going for it. Not having access to the rest of her emails means he doesn't know if it started up again.

Worse, she's a proven cheater. He can't know when or how many affairs she has had. He doesn't know for a fact his kids are his. He doesn't know anything about her sex life. One night stands? Who knows?

Hopefully, a lie detector test will give him some answers. She will.lie to her grave if given the chance.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Right and then, the day after the last emails were exchanged, OM sweet talked her at work.

And at some point they started communicating via facebook - 6-7 years ago - as facebook was just blowing up (2008).

Who knows??

Only way OP gets the truth is polygraph or the threat of one. I wouldn't believe a word she says otherwise.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TRy

Melvynman said:


> If she stay monogamous she will most likely become sexually dysfunctional like most married women. Don't push away a perfectly good sexually functioning women out of your life!!! The older you get the harder they are to find, over fifty sexual functioning women are a rare thing in America.


 What you are saying here is that letting another man give your wife a sexual tune up is the only way that a man over 50 will have a wife that will give him good sex. News flash, as a man over 50 the OP will have no problem finding a sexually functioning younger woman to be his new wife; marrying a younger woman would not be the exception, it would be the norm. Thus he does not need to be married to a cheater to have good sex in a new marriage.


----------



## weightlifter

In some services you have a narrow window to undelete.

GET MOVING


----------



## thatbpguy

As usual, coming in late and don't have time to read all the thread.

But basically it comes down to is that you want her to fully confess to all of what went on and it appears there is more than what she is telling you.

How to best do this?

Here is my suggestion:

1) Leave. Tell her she has been living a lie and is still doing so and you cannot live with this. If you haven't the guts to leave, then move to the basement or another bedroom and stop all sex as it's the power she has over you.

2) File. She needs to know you are dead serious about this. You don’t necessarily have to go through with a divorce, but this is to get your own message across.

3) Expose. You *MUST* tell the OM's wife. She has a _right_ to know and may even know already and have information to tell you. _Give her a copy of every email_. Also, tell the family. She needs to know the shame of her actions and once that is out may be more inclined to be more forthcoming with you.

4) Although I don't like polygraphs, consider making it a condition if there is to be a reconciliation. They can backfire on you, so carefully weigh this one out.

Assume she has informed the OM that you know and they are in full damage control mode and act accordingly. Until you are fully satisfied you are getting the whole truth, the relationship moves towards divorce. And maybe even after.


----------



## Abc123wife

TRy said:


> What you are saying here is that letting another man give your wife a sexual tune up is the only way that a man over 50 will have a wife that will give him good sex. News flash, as a man over 50 the OP will have no problem finding a sexually functioning younger woman to be his new wife; marrying a younger woman would not be the exception, it would be the norm. Thus he does not need to be married to a cheater to have good sex in a new marriage.


The idea that a woman over 50 needs a sexual tuneup via infidelity in order to have a functional and vibrant sex life with her husband is insulting, outrageous, stupid, and just plain untrue!


----------



## Hicks

Why don't we wait for Zing to come back and tell us what happened last night.


----------



## ConanHub

How about it Zing?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

BobSimmons said:


> This cannot be real. Seriously?





TRy said:


> What you are saying here is that letting another man give your wife a sexual tune up is the only way that a man over 50 will have a wife that will give him good sex. News flash, as a man over 50 the OP will have no problem finding a sexually functioning younger woman to be his new wife; marrying a younger woman would not be the exception, it would be the norm. Thus he does not need to be married to a cheater to have good sex in a new marriage.


Let's just say, he is most likely real and he belongs to a "different world." I think he is torn between what he does and what he truly believes.


----------



## Graywolf2

I didn’t read every response so I may be repeating some things. 

Shut up and do this:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/209754-standard-evidence-post.html

Now is the time your wife will be communicating with the OM the most to cover their a$$es. *So now is the time to investigate. * 

Even if you think you have enough evidence for yourself, get more. She will swear to your friends and family that it was only an EA. Then you will be put in the position of breaking up your family over a man she never touched. It’s much easier to explain your actions to others if it was a PA.

If at the end of your investigation you don’t have a smoking gun threaten to divorce in order to learn more. Now she thinks telling you more about the affair will just move you closer to divorce. 

You want to change that dynamic. If she thinks you’re going to divorce anyway then she may try honesty to improve her chances of staying with you. 

She is probably very motivated to stay married to you. It sounds like you were a good partner. You have kids together and she was probably planning to grow old with you. 

The OM was just for some excitement and he was safe because he was married to. She will want to protect her reputation and avoid your grown kids finding out.

You will never look at your wife the same way again no matter what the two of you do. If you stay with her a good way to handle it is to downgrade her to girlfriend in your mind. It doesn’t hurt as much if your girlfriend cheated or cheats on you.


----------



## thatbpguy

Graywolf2 said:


> You will never look at your wife the same way again no matter what the two of you do. If you stay with her and good want to handle it is to downgrade her to girlfriend in your mind. It doesn’t hurt as much if your girlfriend cheated or cheats on you.


Graywolf2, I have the utmost respect for you but will disagree with this. 

While I get it as a coping mechanism, it seems a bit like rugsweeping and takes away some issues of necessary accountability.

Aside from that, you made another solid post.


----------



## tom67

Zinger I hope you are doing okay considering bro.


----------



## Graywolf2

thatbpguy said:


> Graywolf2, I have the utmost respect for you but will disagree with this.
> 
> While I get it as a coping mechanism, it seems a bit like rugsweeping and takes away some issues of necessary accountability.
> 
> Aside from that, you made another solid post.


I guess I got ahead of myself. There have been several guys posting lately that ignore all advice and want to R no matter what. If at the end of the day the OP turns out to be one of those guys it’s the best that I can offer. It’s exactly what you said, a “coping mechanism.”


----------



## terrence4159

remember lostcpa caught his wife cheating they had been married a long time he caught the last affair not the 6 before during their marriage, think it was 15 or 20 years. the affairs were 6 months to a year long.


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## phillybeffandswiss

It's strange, infidelity is the one thing where people add a time limit. Most don't do it for abuse, rape molestation, verbal abuse etc, but infidelity is "oh 6 years ago, it's okay." Yet, in everything else, it is the threat and expectation which makes it worse and ruins the trust.. You keep waiting for the next punch in the mouth, even if the last hit was 6 years ago. To me, infidelity is in the same ballpark. The questions: "start who else, were there others, do I know them, what else did she lie about, was the last 6 years an act, was she really happy, etc etc etc."


----------



## Blossom Leigh

That's been true in my situation, philly.


----------



## thatbpguy

phillybeffandswiss said:


> It's strange, infidelity is the one thing where people add a time limit. Most don't do it for abuse, rape molestation, verbal abuse etc, but infidelity is "oh 6 years ago, it's okay." Yet, in everything else, it is the threat and expectation which makes it worse and ruins the trust.. You keep waiting for the next punch in the mouth, even if the last hit was 6 years ago. To me, infidelity is in the same ballpark. The questions: "start who else, were there others, do I know them, what else did she lie about, was the last 6 years an act, was she really happy, etc etc etc."


In the Old Testament infidelity was a capitol offense. Capitol offenses do not have a statute of limitations. 

To me, the passage of time makes it worse. Every single day the betrayed was lied to and decieved. I think it actually makes it worse.


----------



## BWBill

_In the Old Testament infidelity was a capitol offense._

For women anyway. 

Still is in some countries.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Let me clarify, some of those are much worse physically, but they all involve a level of betrayal which never truly goes away even after decades.


----------



## PBear

thatbpguy said:


> In the Old Testament infidelity was a capitol offense.


And slavery was a socially acceptable practice. What's the point? We should go back to the old ways?

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## thatbpguy

BWBill said:


> _In the Old Testament infidelity was a capitol offense._
> 
> For women anyway.
> 
> Still is in some countries.


It should have been for men as well.

I think those countries ought to abolish that now.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

BWBill said:


> For women anyway.





thatbpguy said:


> It should have been for men as well.



It was for men as well. We run the power structures of society so, it has been downplayed and avoided. It's why I am irritated by organized religion, there is gender bias in the bible, but it is much less than it is portrayed.


----------



## zing61

OK: Here is what happened last night. I confronted her when she got home. I was extremely terse. She again told me how very, very sorry she is. I told her that I was absolutely calling BS on her assertion that the affair was not sexual, that I believed it was, period, and that she needs to come clean in order to save the marriage. She states over and over that it was never physical, that they were just friends - that the sexting part became "gross" to her and that she cut it off after that. (For the record, she is really into sex with me and always has been - it is just not super kinky, and there is no "dirty" talk involved - she just doesn't like it). I impress on her over and over how much I believe it was physical - she keeps saying it never was - no kissing, no hugging, no love at all. I keep telling her I don't believe her - she breaks down and cries asking what she can do to show me that it wasn't. 

I ask her for her phone. She goes and gets it and immediately gives it to me. I check for texts between her and the guy - they are only one or two a month, and they have to do with getting together between the four of us as couples or they are work-related. One phone call to the guy last month (that I actually witnessed) where she asked for some hot peppers from their garden. Texts to the guy's wife (more of them) are talking about getting together, shoes, couches, house stuff, etc. I ask her for her work e-mail password and she gives it to me. The few e-mails between the two of them are work-related.

I tell her I still don't believe that it could not have been physical given the e-mails I have. She cries some more, again telling me how sorry she is, telling me she is a bad person - that she dealt with being a bad person when she quit this EA several years ago and just brushed it under the rug, but now that it is back in the open she sees how much it has hurt me and how angry I am - she again sees how bad she was and how she should have gone to counseling for her feelings back then instead of doing this. It was wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. What can she do to help me? Will I go to marriage counseling with her as fast as we can get in? She immediately sends an e-mail to the HR department to see if there is an EAP that will pay for counseling for us. I tell her I will consider going if she admits that it was a PA - she breaks down and cries and says then I guess we can't go because I can't tell you it was.

She tells me that I need to talk to someone, anyone. I tell her who I think I might talk to about it (her best friend's husband - my best friend), and she winces a little and says that her friend will hate her but that I have to do what I have to do and that I can tell anyone I need to tell about this to make myself feel better. I also tell her I am thinking about telling the OM's wife. She again winces and says that she doesn't think she knows, and that it will hurt her and end her friendship with that person, but that I again have to do what I have to do.

We talk about divorce some - it sets us both into tears. She says that she would understand if I did but that it would hurt her beyond anything else that has ever happened to her. She wants to be with me, and will do anything I need for her to do to make that happen.

In short, she is incredibly remorseful, and (I believe) is thinking about how this has affected me.

I have checked her FB account this morning - she is not very active on FB, and there is not a whole lot between her and either of the folks in the other marriage - nothing of interest.

I asked her about the deletion of the e-mails and told her that to me it was just more evidence of her intent to deceive me. She told me that she deleted them because she thought I already had copies of them and they had ruined our marriage and she just wanted to be rid of them. She said she didn't just delete his e-mails, but all e-mails from a long time ago - I checked her e-mail account this morning and this is true. She asked me to print out the e-mails so that I have records of them, or to put them on a thumb drive and keep them elsewhere so that I have the evidence I think I need.

VAR: She doesn't use a car to get around, she uses a bicycle, so I don't think that will work. I told her I thought that she had plenty of opportunity to meet him at work - she suggested I check with any of her co-workers and find out how much she is away from the building and whether he ever comes around.

Polygraph: I just don't know guys. Seems pretty harsh to me, especially given how much remorse she is showing and how far she is willing to go . . . 

Right now she is at work. I go on a long bike ride on Thursday nights with a bunch of guys and don't usually get home til 9:00. I will check our phone account tomorrow morning to find out who she talked to and texted tonight.

Right now, I'm tending to believe that the affair ended when she said it did. My heart WANTS to believe it was not physical, and as somebody here pointed out earlier, if I want to R with her, maybe it is better if I don't know . . . .? 

Thanks for listening.


----------



## zing61

One more thing I forgot to add: I asked her if both of our children were mine. This set her to crying again - she said yes and then she said something to the effect of "I guess I see how bad the damage I did is now - for you to ask me that question."


----------



## badmemory

zing61 said:


> Polygraph: I just don't know guys. Seems pretty harsh to me, especially given how much remorse she is showing and how far she is willing to go . . .


You should at least ask her if she's willing to take one. If she's willing to do anything to prove it was only an EA, then she'll have no problem with it. If she agrees, you can pretend you've scheduled one, and wait until the last minute to tell her you've changed your mind. All the way up to the parking lot of the poly office. If she doesn't confess by then, at least that's another positive. 

I hope she didn't have a PA zing, but you shouldn't take her word for it and just drop the matter - no matter how many tears, and no matter how remorseful she appears.


----------



## Yeswecan

zing61 said:


> One more thing I forgot to add: I asked her if both of our children were mine. This set her to crying again - she said yes and then she said something to the effect of "I guess I see how bad the damage I did is now - for you to ask me that question."


She does appear to get the full picture of where you are right now.


----------



## Q tip

So you let out your plans to talk to OMW. Now she'll contact him to let his W you're bat sh!t crazy. 

You listened to words. You need to see her actions. Of course she'll deny. Cheaters are liars and systematically do this.

If it is a PA or EA, you will drive them further underground. Be much more careful.

But what's in your mind, what if she is telling the truth. But in the face of known betrayal. Seems you're negotiating how serious it is, not what happened. Timeline, meetings, texts.

You grabbed her phone, did you back it up and recovered deleted texts etc...?


----------



## Q tip

Wait for the trickle truth. If there is more, you'll slowly get it out of her over a long, painful period of time. Each new revelation will be a new DDay for you.

Have a strategy and a plan. Chances are it's over. If so, why is she so defensive. You're trying to protect your marriage. What is she protecting.,..? Him?

Timeline in full. Tell her your marriage depends on full, complete disclosure. Even what she knows you do not want to hear. Did you ever ask her what she felt while they texted all that time. How did she feel about him and their little secret.

You need a plan.


----------



## tom67

A lot of us here are not crazy about spending $500 plus on a polygraph because it is not the end all be all however in your specific case I think you may have to.
You let the cat out of the bag regarding telling the omw but hey under the circumstances you did well.
May as well go tell her in person if you can today.
Take care.


----------



## Q tip

Her words versus actions. 

She deleted the emails to destroy deceive and hide evidence. Her words where that you already had them. 

Stay on topic. I'd get D papers and have her served. That will wake her up and stop the games. If she wakes up then all the better, you can always cancel the D.

What has the OMW said. Did you at least speak with her before you warned your wife you would/could?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Tell her you are lining up a polygraph anyway... and tell her what day. See how she reacts.


----------



## thatbpguy

Well, confront. Take her by the hand, drive to these people's house and demand an immediate account in from of the OM and his wife. Get the drop on the both of them. Show the emails.

In fact, tell your wife to say nothing and then tell him she has told you it was physical and see how he denies it. If he seems to honestly deny it, then maybe it was only sexting... On the other hand, if he admits it then you have more problems.

But either way, you have no option but to confront. And these people are no longer friends.

Lastly, in hotmail there is an archive feature to bring back emails that have been deleted. maybe try that and see if there are any other emails. You also might be able to get permission to get a history of all work emails between them and see what is there.


----------



## southernsurf

you did good, I would back off a little now. She may be telling you the truth if the story doesn't waver under duress. Revisit after a short break but keep a diary so you don't rely on memory.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

All things considered, she said all the right things to you. And you did well. 

What does your gut tell you?

Yeah you shouldn't have mentioned telling OM wife but eh none of us are Matlock when it comes to playing it out totally right. I would ask her for a poly - if not tonight then in a few days after your slept on it. Tell her it's the only thing you can think of to put your mind at ease.

if it did go physical, you will get a parking lot confession before she actually goes through with it. I'm not sure how quick you can get an appointment, generally. Schedule it out a week or two ahead of time. Gives the guilt plenty of time to eat away at her conscious.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 2asdf2

Proceed as if she was having and affair with *both* husband and wife.

Your wife may bargain it down to just one or the other.

My WW bargained down a one-night foursome, admitting to sex with one OM. She did not want to admit to the lesbian aspect of the affair.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

And also watch her browser history on computer and phone if she is looking up how to beat polygraphs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 2asdf2

PhillyGuy13 said:


> All things considered, she said all the right things to you. And you did well.
> 
> What does your gut tell you?
> 
> Yeah you shouldn't have mentioned telling OM wife but eh none of us are Matlock when it comes to playing it out totally right. I would ask her for a poly - if not tonight then in a few days after your slept on it. Tell her it's the only thing you can think of to put your mind at ease.
> 
> if it did go physical, *you will get a parking lot confession* before she actually goes through with it. I'm not sure how quick you can get an appointment, generally. Schedule it out a week or two ahead of time. Gives the guilt plenty of time to eat away at her conscious.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You don't even need an appointment.

Just pretend to have one, and back out at the examiner's door. Cheaper that way.


----------



## badmemory

PhillyGuy13 said:


> And also watch her browser history on computer and phone if she is looking up how to beat polygraphs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You beat me to the punch phillyguy. That's SOP.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

2asdf2 said:


> Proceed as if she was having and affair with *both* husband and wife.
> 
> Your wife may bargain it down to just one or the other.
> 
> My WW bargained down a one-night foursome, admitting to sex with one OM. She did not want to admit to the lesbian aspect of the affair.


Zing-

Do you have a legitimate concern that something like this could have happened? I know you mentioned something earlier- why do you think this?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2asdf2

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Zing-
> 
> Do you have a legitimate concern that something like this could have happened? I know you mentioned something earlier- why do you think this?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's a bargaining tactic that may yield results, if nothing else.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

2asdf2 said:


> It's a bargaining tactic that may yield results, if nothing else.


I understand that and I know he said in original post he had a "weird feeling she was sleeping with both" of them. Just wondering why he thinks this.

Because if he goes and accuses this without anything to back it up, they will gas light him and tell him he is crazy, even if it happens to be true.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 2asdf2

PhillyGuy13 said:


> I understand that and I know he said in original post he had a "weird feeling she was sleeping with both" of them. Just wondering why he thinks this.
> 
> Because if he goes and accuses this without anything to back it up, they will gas light him and tell him he is crazy, even if it happens to be true.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


In these cases one has to produce evidence of nothing. One has to use skill and finesse, however.

It worked for me.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Just trying to get where he is coming from. If he thinks this is possible then he may want to hold off on talking to OMW. Although if SHE tells him it's nothing then you know something is up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Just trying to get where he is coming from. If he thinks this is possible then he may want to hold off on talking to OMW. Although if SHE tells him it's nothing then you know something is up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If it was just her and pos emailing and not the wife, I would go see her today.


----------



## zing61

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Zing-
> 
> Do you have a legitimate concern that something like this could have happened? I know you mentioned something earlier- why do you think this?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't know what I think on this subject. She just became awfully close to this woman pretty quickly and another mutual friend who has known both my wife and myself well for almost 30 years told me he thought it was a little strange and threw out the idea of a possible affair. To be honest, if it were just a lesbian affair, it probably wouldn't bother me as much. Now, they still appear to be good friends, but are not as close as they once were . . .


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Just found out wife had affair 6-7 years ago . . .*



tom67 said:


> If it was just her and pos emailing and not the wife, I would go see her today.


This. One drop in visit on OMW will tell you whether it was him or them.


----------



## Hicks

DNA testing the kids. Polygraph. These are all good moves that a) her willingness shows you alot and b) it opens her eyes to what she did. Losing the friendship with both of these people is an absolute must. Probably quitting her job too. ON the plus side you got the best possible reaction last night.


----------



## Forest

Well, I hope it is the rare case where she's being truthful about the lack of sex. Not many of those white elephants go strolling thru here.

Still, your mind is going to effed up (at least a little) from now on by her stupid behavior.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Women can bond quickly, doesn't necessarily mean anything sexual.

Still, confront the OMW and tell her you want to sched a polygraph
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zing61

PhillyGuy13 said:


> All things considered, she said all the right things to you. And you did well.
> 
> What does your gut tell you?
> 
> Yeah you shouldn't have mentioned telling OM wife but eh none of us are Matlock when it comes to playing it out totally right. I would ask her for a poly - if not tonight then in a few days after your slept on it. Tell her it's the only thing you can think of to put your mind at ease.
> 
> if it did go physical, you will get a parking lot confession before she actually goes through with it. I'm not sure how quick you can get an appointment, generally. Schedule it out a week or two ahead of time. Gives the guilt plenty of time to eat away at her conscious.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Thanks Philly Guy. My gut is telling me that she is telling the truth about it being an EA only. However, all of you are telling me "no way". What I tell her is that "my heart wants to believe you, but my head tells me that it was sexual."

I want to emphasize again about how great a marriage partner she has been other than this. She shows affection, she is kind, she loves children, she was a good mom, she is good and decent to other people. I want you all to understand that having an affair doesn't make a person an automatic "bad person." I have an ex-girlfriend who cheated extensively on me a long time ago, and I still think the world of her other than the flaws she has. 

Which brings up another point. This same ex-girlfriend really dragged me through the mud, and I told myself at the time that no one, NO ONE was ever going to be able to do that to me again. As a result, I believe I have always held out some emotions from my wife (so I am at least part of the problem here). Additionally, I wonder if I am not overreacting to this because of my prior experience?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

zing61 said:


> To be honest, if it were just a lesbian affair, it probably wouldn't bother me as much. .


Yeah, that's your fantasy self talking. We have a few lesbian affair threads on TAM and while they made similar statements, when confirmed, they were just as hurt as a guy whose wife had a hetero affair.


----------



## thatbpguy

zing61 said:


> Thanks Philly Guy. My gut is telling me that she is telling the truth about it being an EA only. However, all of you are telling me "no way". What I tell her is that "my heart wants to believe you, but my head tells me that it was sexual."
> 
> I want to emphasize again about how great a marriage partner she has been other than this. She shows affection, she is kind, she loves children, she was a good mom, she is good and decent to other people. I want you all to understand that having an affair doesn't make a person an automatic "bad person." I have an ex-girlfriend who cheated extensively on me a long time ago, and I still think the world of her other than the flaws she has.
> 
> Which brings up another point. This same ex-girlfriend really dragged me through the mud, and I told myself at the time that no one, NO ONE was ever going to be able to do that to me again. As a result, I believe I have always held out some emotions from my wife (so I am at least part of the problem here). Additionally, I wonder if I am not overreacting to this because of my prior experience?


Z61, you are now starting down the garden path of beating yourself up and partially frinding fault for all this.

But, none of this is on you. Accept that. 

If you're going to start down the polygraph path (I don't recommend it) then be prepared to complete it.

I still prefer the method of taking her over ASAP and confronting the both of them. Take the emails and get the whole matter out in the open. Get some answers.


----------



## badmemory

zing61 said:


> Additionally, I wonder if I am not overreacting to this because of my prior experience?


How can you overreact to an EA? For many men, this would be a divorce-able offense. It's perfectly legit to suspect a PA, for three reasons:

Most WS's offer this up as a trickle truth, the circumstantial evidence suggests it, and you have nothing but her word, so far, that would rule it out.

Ask her if she'd be willing to take the poly.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

bpguy, why do you not recommend poly?


----------



## zing61

Blossom Leigh said:


> bpguy, why do you not recommend poly?


Yes please bpguy: Why? I am reluctant to go this route anyway . . . .


----------



## thatbpguy

They are often beaten, are more often inconclusive and seem childish to me. And if they are beaten or inconclusive (or just wrong), then where are you?

I like the straight ahead, get some answers approach. Gather what info you can, stand back and take an objective look at it and go from there.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

zing61 said:


> Yes please bpguy: Why? I am reluctant to go this route anyway . . . .


I was too zing when my H had his affair, but over time I grew comfortable with it and after telling him it is still an option in my hands and then asked "if I were to take you down today and got a poly on you, what would it show me" He has said consistently that the physical went no further than it did. I still think about getting it done and his affair was two years ago.


----------



## Hicks

If you don't want to do a poly, just pretend you have one set up. Drive to the police station telling her that the examiner is in there. If she is willing to go through with it, you have your answer, If she makes an excuse or better yet cough's up some truth in the parking lot you will have your answer.

If you don't want to do a poly, what is it that will make you feel secure in your marriage? You can make choices here.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

thatbpguy said:


> They are often beaten, are more often inconclusive and seem childish to me. And if they are beaten or inconclusive (or just wrong), then where are you?
> 
> I like the straight ahead, get some answers approach. Gather what info you can, stand back and take an objective look at it and go from there.


Thanks for sharing your thoughts.


----------



## badmemory

Zing,

As I mentioned before, I might be hesitant to actually go through with the poly. I understand that.

But for the life of me, I don't understand why you don't at least ask her if she'd be "willing" to take one. Are you afraid you will hurt her feelings?


----------



## thatbpguy

Z61, I can tell you love her and want to survive this. 

And that is all to your credit and a worthy thing to do.

Just be careful to not rugsweep, blame shift... Your relationship has made a turn it will never fully recover from. Accdept that. Faith and trust are gone forever in the way they once existed. 

TAM can be a harsh jungle. Take us with a grain of salt. Do what is best for you, but just do it openly and with honesty with respect to your wife. 

There are some people here who have overcome incredible heartache. Up or down, I hope you do too.


----------



## thatbpguy

Blossom Leigh said:


> Thanks for sharing your thoughts.


Ouch. 

That was weak.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

I like the threat and anticipation of the poly more than the poly itself. Meaning, it will eat away at her and eventually she could confess before the test. Not always/ nothing is foolproof.

But yes BP is right if the results are inconclusive then you are now even more in a state of doubt.

One thing to add - zing don't let second guessing creep in.. None of us are perfect in our marriages. Yeah you probably messed up some where along the way. We all have. But that is never license for a spouse to seek emotional or physical stimulation outside the marriage. That is 100% on her.

As said, I am encouraged by her response last night but by no means in the clear yet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BWBill

Unless there was some support in the emails I wouldn't raise any lesbian issues. She seems to currently treat your concerns as legitimate; you don't want her thinking you're paranoid.

I would challenge her to the polygraph and I would talk to the OM's wife.


----------



## tom67

PhillyGuy13 said:


> I like the threat and anticipation of the poly more than the poly itself. Meaning, it will eat away at her and eventually she could confess before the test. Not always/ nothing is foolproof.
> 
> But yes BP is right if the results are inconclusive then you are now even more in a state of doubt.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes I too am more for the threat of one as you may get the parking lot confession so to speak.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

thatbpguy said:


> Ouch.
> 
> That was weak.


giggle.. not meant as weak at all.. just gracious. I just took it as you sharing your heart and I appreciated it.


----------



## Buddy400

zing61 said:


> Any advice? Thanks so much for letting me get this down - even just writing this has helped.


From someone who hasn't had a horrific experience with betrayal (which I think is a viewpoint you don't hear much on this thread); given your conversation with your wife, I tend to believe her account. She has offered to assist in any way to discover anything you want and has not objected to anything. She is showing remorse.

I would go ahead with any counseling you think you and your wife need. 

I'd put in place ways to monitor her phone, e-mail and computer. Demand and receive transparency. Makes sure that she continues to show remorse. No blame-shifting.

Hope like h3ll that a perfectly good marriage wasn't destroyed by reading an infidelity thread on the internet and mindfvcking yourself.


----------



## zing61

Buddy400 said:


> From someone who hasn't had a horrific experience with betrayal (which I think is a viewpoint you don't hear much on this thread); given your conversation with your wife, I tend to believe her account. She has offered to assist in any way to discover anything you want and has not objected to anything. She is showing remorse.
> 
> I would go ahead with any counseling you think you and your wife need.
> 
> I'd put in place ways to monitor her phone, e-mail and computer. Demand and receive transparency. Makes sure that she continues to show remorse. No blame-shifting.
> 
> Hope like h3ll that a perfectly good marriage wasn't destroyed by reading an infidelity thread on the internet and mindfvcking yourself.


THIS. This is what I feel most like doing. I want this to work with her, I want to believe her. I don't know if I am ready to make a decision about "what to do" yet, but I am open to doing this to give the marriage a really solid chance to work as it has in the past. Even if it means that there is more of a chance it may happen again in the future - at least I will have tried to build back what we once had . . . .


----------



## Squeakr

Buddy400 said:


> From someone who hasn't had a horrific experience with betrayal (which I think is a viewpoint you don't hear much on this thread); given your conversation with your wife, I tend to believe her account. She has offered to assist in any way to discover anything you want and has not objected to anything. She is showing remorse.
> 
> I would go ahead with any counseling you think you and your wife need.
> 
> I'd put in place ways to monitor her phone, e-mail and computer. Demand and receive transparency. Makes sure that she continues to show remorse. No blame-shifting.
> 
> Hope like h3ll that a perfectly good marriage wasn't destroyed by reading an infidelity thread on the internet and mindfvcking yourself.


I agree with your recommendations until the last statement. 

Having admitted that you haven't had a horrific experience with betrayal, you really are in no place to state that the marriage was perfectly good and reading this forum on the internet will destroy it (or it's false facade that was there for several years). If it were such a good marriage, then he wouldn't even be here seeking advice. His reading of this forum is not what could possibly destroy his marriage but the actions of his wife and the discovery of them (that have been hidden purposely by her for all these years, during and after the A). Don't make him feel bad or make him responsible for HER bad choices and actions that may ultimately affect their marriage and how it plays out.

I too hope that this resolves itself in a good manner for the OP, as his WW seems to be doing and saying "most" of the right things (I say most as the deleting of the emails is what throws things into a bad place). No matter the outcome though, it is her years of lies and deceit, and the A she carried on in secret with a close friend, that may lead to the end of the marriage. Not the information he is receiving from this forum. His actions are honest and true, which is more than can be said for hers (as history has shown she is willing to hide, betray, lie, and rugsweep).


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Well... I would think the wife sexting another dude killed the marriage, not an Internet forum, but what do I know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forest

Originally Posted by zing61 View Post
To be honest, if it were just a lesbian affair, it probably wouldn't bother me as much. .




phillybeffandswiss said:


> Yeah, that's your fantasy self talking. We have a few lesbian affair threads on TAM and while they made similar statements, when confirmed, they were just as hurt as a guy whose wife had a hetero affair.



I, for one, would give a few fingers or toes to find out if this is actually true.


----------



## tom67

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Well... I would think the wife sexting another dude killed the marriage, not an Internet forum, but what do I know.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ugh...
Yeah.
It's even more scary when someone can compartmentalize so easily.
How can you trust them if they are that good at it.


----------



## tom67

zing61 said:


> THIS. This is what I feel most like doing. I want this to work with her, I want to believe her. I don't know if I am ready to make a decision about "what to do" yet, but I am open to doing this to give the marriage a really solid chance to work as it has in the past. Even if it means that there is more of a chance it may happen again in the future - at least I will have tried to build back what we once had . . . .


Let her do the work as in making mc appointments and so on.
ACTIONS not words.


----------



## Squeakr

zing61 said:


> I will have tried to build back what we once had . . . .


Sorry but what you once had is now forever tainted. What to you was a good marriage and things were fine, was not the same to her, otherwise she wouldn't have strayed and had the A. You will forever look upon those times with retrospect and question everything that happened, both her and your actions. It would be best to kill that and try for new and better, as that will be the best way to heal and move on. I went through the same thing, always thinking I wish it could go back to the way it was, then I come to my senses and think, why? If it was a good as I thought, then why was she sneaking around and having A's on me. Obviously it wasn't as great as I imagined and it is time for me to take off the rose colored glasses.

I would suggest you two seek counseling, as something was wrong or missing in her mind to cause her to stray. So what has changed (if anything) that now the same marriage is acceptable to her where before it wasn't enough? Obviously these questions have never been answered for her, and maybe you now see issues as well (and they are more weighty than you previously thought). You need some answers and counseling may provide them ( I know for me it revealed that there was more there than I was ever seeing or being told).

I suggest reading the books Not Just Friends, Love Languages, and Surviving the Affair to get perspectives on how to heal.


----------



## Squeakr

zing61 said:


> She states over and over that it was never physical, that they were just friends - that the sexting part became "gross" to her and that she cut it off after that. (For the record, she is really into sex with me and always has been - it is just not super kinky, and there is no "dirty" talk involved - she just doesn't like it).


Don't let this drive your thoughts that it would never happen. I had the same thing with my STBX exactly as you described (personality, treatment of others, parenting skills, friendships, etc). She hated dirty talk and everything was pretty vanilla with sex and experimentation, until it came to the OMs. I found the transcripts and she said some of the filthiest things I have ever read were posted by her and she did things I would beg for (and were denied as it was "gross" or "despicable", her words not mine) with the OM without a second thought. They want to keep their angel facade with us so they can be on the pedestal, and not reveal the other side (which they have no problem showing to the AP as it is just part of the territory, expectations, and excitement since all boundaries have already been crossed).


----------



## BWBill

_I am open to doing this to give the marriage a really solid chance to work as it has in the past. Even if it means that there is more of a chance it may happen again in the future - at least I will have tried to build back what we once had . . . . 
_

I hope you do. I also think that to do so you need to be sure you have all the facts and be sure that you've driven a stake into the heart of this (note that there is current thread out about a wife re-contacting a former EA partner).


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Buddy400 said:


> From someone who hasn't had a horrific experience with betrayal (which I think is a viewpoint you don't hear much on this thread); given your conversation with your wife, I tend to believe her account. She has offered to assist in any way to discover anything you want and has not objected to anything. She is showing remorse.
> 
> I would go ahead with any counseling you think you and your wife need.
> 
> I'd put in place ways to monitor her phone, e-mail and computer. Demand and receive transparency. Makes sure that she continues to show remorse. No blame-shifting.


Strange how he has already received similar advice:


VFW said:


> Firstly, I am sorry that you are in this situation. Secondly, I applaud you for trying to find the truth and not sweeping it under the rug as many would do. You are going to be riding an emotional roller coaster for little while. Because of this you are going to be going back and forth between knowing what to do. My advise is to try to get as much information as you can, but don't make any long range decisions, until emotions settle a bit. Nothing has to be settled immediately.
> 
> I believe that most relationships can be repaired, but it is based on the premise that the WS is contrite and starts being completely open and honest with the BS. You need to tell her that she must not sugar coat things to diminish her involvement or to save your feelings. She needs to know this is nothing more than lying and is a slap in the face to you. You will need a timeline of events, so that you can compare against other information you already have obtained.
> 
> After you have obtained as much truth as you can, then you need to consider counseling. The counselor can work as the fair broker in mending the relationship. Don't sweep issues under the rug, they have to be dealt with before the fester and cause even more damage.





Decorum said:


> She may have been in a bad place, but her decisions have just put you in a very bad place. (She should be able to relate to that, seriously!)
> 
> Her actions in her "bad place" were so disrespectful and showed such disregard for you, it is really shocking.
> 
> Her actions put you in perhaps a worse place and you are relatively powerless (at the moment) to get out of it. It will take time and work on your part (whether you divorce or reconcile), not to mention probably counseling and perhaps medication none of which would be uncommon.
> 
> She dealt with her problem in a way that coul only gut you, they dont usually consider the consequences, but the consequences are all too real as you now know, she has to step up and be the woman you need her to be.
> 
> She could have put in that time and work up front (i.e. counseling, communication etc), and have earned your respect even more, and spared you this, as well as spared Om's wife and family. Instead her therapy was infidelity.
> 
> She chose to cheat, perhaps the affair ran it course, or she realized he would not divorce his wife and marry her, perhaps she did not want to cause that much trauma to her life and she chose to end it (if she did) and what?. Stick it out? Try to make up for it? Do the right thing?
> Maybe she realized you were the only man she really wanted, IDK.
> 
> She may not have meant to hurt you but she was willing to take the risk.
> 
> Curently it would seem she would rather lie than face the consequences, even at the risk of you not knowing all the truth and perpetuating your suffering.
> 
> She probably does not realize how hurtful any more lies are going to be, I hope you make it clear that if anything kills your respect and love for her and the chance of reconciling the marriage it will be the ongoing lying and deception.
> 
> I think you may be able to help her understand the need for complete honesty.
> 
> I am sorry for what you are going through and hope you can find a healthy way through it.
> 
> I have nothing more to add to the previous advice other than my endorsement, i.e. Collect info, don’t reveal everything, tell OM’s wife etc .
> 
> I really do wish you well.
> 
> Take care!



from reading


> an infidelity thread on the internet and mindfvcking yourself.


The only difference is, your advice comes from a person who hasn't dealt with infidelity. He was upset before he posted here and now he is getting advice before it goes further sideways. Telling him to get the truth and know what he is forgiving is not screwing with his mind. It helps him set realistic boundaries and consequences.


----------



## clipclop2

because she deleted the emails I really think that you should tell her that you want her to take a polygraph test and then have her make the appointment for it. 

you don't have to keep the appointment. If there is anything else that she didn't tell you I strongly suspect that she will tell you before the date she's supposed to take the poly. 

she probably is telling the truth but because she deleted those emails she left the question that could have been answered. in that respect she screwed herself. 

if it was physical is that a deal breaker for you? 

if it is and you still resistant to the idea of a poly then you have to ask yourself how much you are afraid to find out the truth versus how much you believe her. because let's face it a divorce is painful and expensive. there is always a tendency to wish you could unknow what you know. 

a polygraph isn't punishment. It's another means at trying to verify what someone tells you. you can came to believe someone but on an important question like this need to know more than just from their word. Because again she had the emails and if she had left them you would have been able to find out what you wanted to know. Instead she deleted them and it could have been what she said is the reason but it's also possible that she didn't want you to dig up more. 

regretfully you'll never know because of her actions. 

it was one of the dumber things she could have done in this situation. 

you definitely made a mistake by telling her that you might talk to the other man. I think in a way you might be stacking the deck so that you don't find out that it was physical. and like I said that's understandable but it's really a bad idea because this is going to bother you for a long long time. and right now you can't even how long or how much. by shooting yourself in the foot with respect to intelligence gathering you leave a wound that can potentially not heal. 
it's the not knowing the truth part that hurts so much. it's not be able to fully believe them ever again about anything that's really important to the two of you and your relationship. 

when you can put it all together and it makes sense and such corroborate what you've been told it's easier to move onone way or the other. 

please don't blow off this advice. 

we don't want to see you back here in 6 months or a year and find you filled with regret.


----------



## Nucking Futs

zing61 said:


> THIS. This is what I feel most like doing. I want this to work with her, I want to believe her. I don't know if I am ready to make a decision about "what to do" yet, but I am open to doing this to give the marriage a really solid chance to work as it has in the past. Even if it means that there is more of a chance it may happen again in the future - at least I will have tried to build back what we once had . . . .


You have one person on this thread, who admits to having no experience in what he's advising on, giving you advice compared to everyone else on this thread, all of whom have experience in this, and that's the advice you want to take? Really?

Nobody here wants to end a marriage that could be saved. But most of us realize that if you don't come down hard on this now you'll be back in a few years in a worse position than now, dealing with another PA or a continuation of this one. 

You don't want to do a polygraph because you don't want to be that harsh to her. That's your call. It's not a good decision but it's your decision to make. We're going to advocate for the things we think will help you to succeed in saving your marriage but it's your call.

Polygraphs are not infallible. There are people that can beat them. The average cheating wife is not one of those people. There's not much chance your wife has the training or the natural mind set to beat it. Some, having seen your reluctance, are trying to get you to at least bluff the polygraph. Again, it's your call. I think you should do the polygraph, or at least bluff it. Before you bring it up to her though, put a key logger on the computer and place the vars so you can see if she searches for how to beat it or talks to people about it.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

You know what? Read this thread.
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/225402-need-honest-advice-am-i-crazy.html

Just like you, his wife could be telling the 100% truth, but she lied before and deleted text. Read his posts, see how devastated he is and pay attention to how similar the advice sounds.


----------



## Chaparral

What in the emails made you think there was more than sexting? How out of character were they?

How long had you known them when this took place?

Did your sex life change during this time period? 

Generally, if there is a physical affair sex will increase or decrease with he spouse.

Did any of the emails indicate genuine affection or love?

Did the emails include the entire affair from beginning to end?


----------



## bandit.45

I don't see how any R can happen if she doesn't come clean about the physical aspect. Zing's gut is screaming at him that it was a full on fvckfest. I tend to agree. If she doesn't come clean R is not going to happen.


----------



## ConanHub

zing61 said:


> THIS. This is what I feel most like doing. I want this to work with her, I want to believe her. I don't know if I am ready to make a decision about "what to do" yet, but I am open to doing this to give the marriage a really solid chance to work as it has in the past. Even if it means that there is more of a chance it may happen again in the future - at least I will have tried to build back what we once had . . . .


Zing, I liked this because I feel your pain. Really sorry for the agony you are going through and having hope that your wife is being honest with you is not bad.

I hope she is as well and that you can work through this to repair your marriage.

Unfortunately, according to most experiences, you more than likely do not know the extent of your WW betrayal.

I hope that your wife is an odds beater, and there is a small chance she is, but the odds are that there is much more to this than you know already.

Be vigilant and take care. You will make it.


----------



## Chaparral

Since this happened several years ago,.evidence is hard to find.

However, I would surreptiously search that house top to bottom.

I would also check bank accts and credit card info as far back as possible.

Do you guys keep your old phones?


----------



## Q tip

Keep in mind, your marriage and relationship is not what it has been. For 6 years it's been over.

It will not return to the pre-affair state. You both must build a new relationship. 

She must do a lot of heavy lifting (actions NOT words) to prove herself to you. You should let her know you will decide if there is R or D. You need to consider much before either state.

If you did D her, would you date her as a known cheat? Probably not. So take care with your decisions. Keep in mind, you can D at any time for any reason. She lost her vote.

Perhaps a permanent no contact forever. Work or not. Does not matter. Consider she should change jobs too. She should be willing to resign the moment you say so.


----------



## sidney2718

zing61 said:


> OK: Here is what happened last night. I confronted her when she got home. I was extremely terse. She again told me how very, very sorry she is. I told her that I was absolutely calling BS on her assertion that the affair was not sexual, that I believed it was, period, and that she needs to come clean in order to save the marriage. She states over and over that it was never physical, that they were just friends - that the sexting part became "gross" to her and that she cut it off after that. (For the record, she is really into sex with me and always has been - it is just not super kinky, and there is no "dirty" talk involved - she just doesn't like it). I impress on her over and over how much I believe it was physical - she keeps saying it never was - no kissing, no hugging, no love at all. I keep telling her I don't believe her - she breaks down and cries asking what she can do to show me that it wasn't.
> 
> I ask her for her phone. She goes and gets it and immediately gives it to me. I check for texts between her and the guy - they are only one or two a month, and they have to do with getting together between the four of us as couples or they are work-related. One phone call to the guy last month (that I actually witnessed) where she asked for some hot peppers from their garden. Texts to the guy's wife (more of them) are talking about getting together, shoes, couches, house stuff, etc. I ask her for her work e-mail password and she gives it to me. The few e-mails between the two of them are work-related.
> 
> I tell her I still don't believe that it could not have been physical given the e-mails I have. She cries some more, again telling me how sorry she is, telling me she is a bad person - that she dealt with being a bad person when she quit this EA several years ago and just brushed it under the rug, but now that it is back in the open she sees how much it has hurt me and how angry I am - she again sees how bad she was and how she should have gone to counseling for her feelings back then instead of doing this. It was wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. What can she do to help me? Will I go to marriage counseling with her as fast as we can get in? She immediately sends an e-mail to the HR department to see if there is an EAP that will pay for counseling for us. I tell her I will consider going if she admits that it was a PA - she breaks down and cries and says then I guess we can't go because I can't tell you it was.
> 
> She tells me that I need to talk to someone, anyone. I tell her who I think I might talk to about it (her best friend's husband - my best friend), and she winces a little and says that her friend will hate her but that I have to do what I have to do and that I can tell anyone I need to tell about this to make myself feel better. I also tell her I am thinking about telling the OM's wife. She again winces and says that she doesn't think she knows, and that it will hurt her and end her friendship with that person, but that I again have to do what I have to do.
> 
> We talk about divorce some - it sets us both into tears. She says that she would understand if I did but that it would hurt her beyond anything else that has ever happened to her. She wants to be with me, and will do anything I need for her to do to make that happen.
> 
> In short, she is incredibly remorseful, and (I believe) is thinking about how this has affected me.
> 
> I have checked her FB account this morning - she is not very active on FB, and there is not a whole lot between her and either of the folks in the other marriage - nothing of interest.
> 
> I asked her about the deletion of the e-mails and told her that to me it was just more evidence of her intent to deceive me. She told me that she deleted them because she thought I already had copies of them and they had ruined our marriage and she just wanted to be rid of them. She said she didn't just delete his e-mails, but all e-mails from a long time ago - I checked her e-mail account this morning and this is true. She asked me to print out the e-mails so that I have records of them, or to put them on a thumb drive and keep them elsewhere so that I have the evidence I think I need.
> 
> VAR: She doesn't use a car to get around, she uses a bicycle, so I don't think that will work. I told her I thought that she had plenty of opportunity to meet him at work - she suggested I check with any of her co-workers and find out how much she is away from the building and whether he ever comes around.
> 
> Polygraph: I just don't know guys. Seems pretty harsh to me, especially given how much remorse she is showing and how far she is willing to go . . .
> 
> Right now she is at work. I go on a long bike ride on Thursday nights with a bunch of guys and don't usually get home til 9:00. I will check our phone account tomorrow morning to find out who she talked to and texted tonight.
> 
> Right now, I'm tending to believe that the affair ended when she said it did. My heart WANTS to believe it was not physical, and as somebody here pointed out earlier, if I want to R with her, maybe it is better if I don't know . . . .?
> 
> Thanks for listening.


I find her story credible. But I must warn you that you are about to be put into the center of a sh!t storm. Folks will insist that you divorce her yesterday and folks that insist that she's lying and folks who insist that she's simply manipulating you. Most of these folks mean well, but they are reacting to their own sad experiences with cheating spouses.

You are not married to their spouses. You are married to your spouse and in the end YOU have to decide what to do. If I were you I'd ask what caused her to get involved in the first place and do those circumstances still exist.

And I'd remain vigilant for a while. I suspect that you will turn up nothing because there is nothing more to turn up. But it doesn't hurt to pay attention. Just make sure that you do not make your wife's life a living hell.

Just my opinion and worth what you paid for it.


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## sidney2718

zing61 said:


> Thanks Philly Guy. My gut is telling me that she is telling the truth about it being an EA only. However, all of you are telling me "no way". What I tell her is that "my heart wants to believe you, but my head tells me that it was sexual."
> 
> I want to emphasize again about how great a marriage partner she has been other than this. She shows affection, she is kind, she loves children, she was a good mom, she is good and decent to other people. I want you all to understand that having an affair doesn't make a person an automatic "bad person." I have an ex-girlfriend who cheated extensively on me a long time ago, and I still think the world of her other than the flaws she has.
> 
> Which brings up another point. This same ex-girlfriend really dragged me through the mud, and I told myself at the time that no one, NO ONE was ever going to be able to do that to me again. As a result, I believe I have always held out some emotions from my wife (so I am at least part of the problem here). Additionally, I wonder if I am not overreacting to this because of my prior experience?


You might be. The one thing I'd be careful of is not totally alienating your wife. If she's being truthful and you want a reconciliation, don't totally destroy your relationship with her.


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## Squeakr

Q tip said:


> It will not return to the pre-affair state. You both must build a new relationship.


This^^^ As people act like that is all they want whennthey find out about the betrayal.

Keep in mind, why would you want it to return to the preA state. I also thought that is what I wanted, but then realized how far back would I have to go to be happy (probably prior to the wedding), As according to my STBX, things were always bad in the M. So if I truly wanted to go back to preA marriage why would I want to subject myself and her to a time that wasn't good for us and hope it is better this time (it seemed fine for me but obviously wasn't or this wouldn't have happened and she was obviously unhappy and unfulfilled while in that state)?

Bear this in mind and do some soul searching as that may not be the M you want and would be better with a new one (either with her or another, but a new one either way).


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## Q tip

sidney2718 said:


> You might be. The one thing I'd be careful of is not totally alienating your wife. If she's being truthful and you want a reconciliation, don't totally destroy your relationship with her.


Yah, like she did to him...


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## zing61

Talked with her again tonight instead of going on a ride. I was again very terse. Told her again I believed it to be a PA. She cried and asked how she can prove to me it wasn’t. I suggested a polygraph - she immediately accepted. I told her it was up to her to save the marriage and she agreed - she is going to contact a marriage counselor and set it up for us. Again tells me how sorry she is - how it was such a bad thing for her to do. Tells me that the reason she broke it off was that she was disgusted with herself - she is disgusted with herself today. She will do ANYTHING to be with me - I half-heartedly suggested moving away and starting over - she immediately agreed. I half-heartedly suggested leaving her job - she immediately agreed.

Guys: She is doing everything right. I am going to take a chance on this woman. I love her. Other than this one huge failing, she is gorgeous inside and out. She was one in a million when I met her. She has been one in a million since I’ve been married to her - every guy I know is (well WAS) jealous of my relationship with her - we do really amazing cool things together - we do long distance multi-day bike rides, she backpacks with me, she skis with me, she climbs mountains with me. She very well could be the one in a million spouses who really didn’t have a PA while having an EA. I KNOW I could be hurt again 12 months from now. I KNOW I can’t trust her now and that our relationship will have to change. But what we had was so great, so exceptional, that I have to take that chance - you can see that can’t you?

I will NOT trust her - she knows that. I will verify her whereabouts and her communications - she thinks I should. I will insist upon counseling that she sets up - she has agreed to that. I MAY require a polygraph - she has already agreed to it. I MAY require her to leave her job - she has already agreed to that.

What I promise is that I won’t leave you all hanging in the dark. You have given me good advice and I so appreciate it. Some of it I have taken all the way, some I have taken halfway, and some I have rejected. But your advice all comes from experience and from a good place - where you want to see marriages succeed. Thank you for helping me. I will let you know what happens.


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## Squeakr

That all sounds great and you are getting what lots of us dreamed of from our WS. I would ask for a written time frame so no more trickle truth occurs. 

Good luck and the best to you.


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## Vulcan2013

Looks like she has the right attitude. If she sees a poly as a chance to reassure you, and is trying to fix things, you can watch and wait.


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## MattMatt

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Yeah, that's your fantasy self talking. We have a few lesbian affair threads on TAM and while they made similar statements, when confirmed, they were just as hurt as a guy whose wife had a hetero affair.


Yep. When my first LTR girlfriend threw me over for a woman, I was so gutted by it I didn't even date for three years or so.

Eventually a concerned married couple set me up on a blind date.


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## BWBill

Sounds good. We all wish you both the best.


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## tom67

It sounds like she gets it.
How about you and her go see the pos's wife together show some of the emails and she can apologize to her then you never speak to them again.


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## sidney2718

Q tip said:


> Yah, like she did to him...


The problem I have with this is that there are emotional affairs and emotional affairs. Many involve a fair amount of fantasy talk which pleases both people but which neither one wants to act upon.

It is true that many situations like this on TAM have resulted in further revelations as time has gone on. And that may well happen here. But it is also true that there are a fair number of situations like this on TAM where folks end up quite happy.

The choice of what to do still rests with Zing. So far his wife has done everything right. She's met his requests, done as he's asked, and been very remorseful. She could be an expert at lying. She could also be telling the truth. Zing has to be careful because his wife is a living, breathing, human being who can be convinced to divorce him if he treats her like an animal with no rights at all.

Do we think that if it turns out that she told Zing the truth right from the start that we should apologize?


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## bfree

The thing that still would bother me is that she spent time at his house many times during the EA and supposedly nothing happened. To me that seems unlikely.


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## phillybeffandswiss

bfree said:


> The thing that still would bother me is that she spent time at his house many times during the EA and supposedly nothing happened. To me that seems unlikely.


I agree, but he has made his decision. It is now on his radar, as they say, "the truth will out."


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## PhillyGuy13

Definitely positive reactions.

Good look Zing. Hoping for the best for you guys.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## clipclop2

This is good.

Now, back off and don't bring anything up and see what she does on her own.

I hope she doesn't leave her job if it is a good one and especially if she has a pension. They are rare these days. 401k no big deal. Pension I wouldn't give up. Dont know her situation.

Let her do the rest. Ok? Sit back and don't have heavy chats.

If she is true it will become evident.

I dont understand calling the MC to set up a poly though. Call local law enforcement or search the web. You want someone excellent. My trust in MCs is on the low side so who they recommend may or may not be decent.

There are good therapists and counselors. They are just rare.

Let her drive for a while and see where it leads you.

Good job.


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## thatbpguy

zing61 said:


> Guys: She is doing everything right. I am going to take a chance on this woman. I love her. Other than this one huge failing, she is gorgeous inside and out. She was one in a million when I met her. She has been one in a million since I’ve been married to her - every guy I know is (well WAS) jealous of my relationship with her - we do really amazing cool things together - we do long distance multi-day bike rides, she backpacks with me, she skis with me, she climbs mountains with me. She very well could be the one in a million spouses who really didn’t have a PA while having an EA. I KNOW I could be hurt again 12 months from now. I KNOW I can’t trust her now and that our relationship will have to change. But what we had was so great, so exceptional, that I have to take that chance - you can see that can’t you?


I think you are making a wise decision.

That said, I think it important the OM's wife know. Not for revenge, but because she has a right to know. As you would want to know, she is equally entitled.

I hope the very best for you. I think we all do.


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## clipclop2

Yeah, I'm afraid that's true. He may have been up to more with other women as well.


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## lordmayhem

zing61 said:


> Talked with her again tonight instead of going on a ride. I was again very terse. Told her again I believed it to be a PA. She cried and asked how she can prove to me it wasn’t. I suggested a polygraph - she immediately accepted. I told her it was up to her to save the marriage and she agreed - she is going to contact a marriage counselor and set it up for us. Again tells me how sorry she is - how it was such a bad thing for her to do. Tells me that the reason she broke it off was that she was disgusted with herself - she is disgusted with herself today. She will do ANYTHING to be with me - I half-heartedly suggested moving away and starting over - she immediately agreed. I half-heartedly suggested leaving her job - she immediately agreed.
> 
> Guys: She is doing everything right. I am going to take a chance on this woman. I love her. Other than this one huge failing, she is gorgeous inside and out. She was one in a million when I met her. She has been one in a million since I’ve been married to her - every guy I know is (well WAS) jealous of my relationship with her - we do really amazing cool things together - we do long distance multi-day bike rides, she backpacks with me, she skis with me, she climbs mountains with me. She very well could be the one in a million spouses who really didn’t have a PA while having an EA. I KNOW I could be hurt again 12 months from now. I KNOW I can’t trust her now and that our relationship will have to change. But what we had was so great, so exceptional, that I have to take that chance - you can see that can’t you?
> 
> I will NOT trust her - she knows that. I will verify her whereabouts and her communications - she thinks I should. I will insist upon counseling that she sets up - she has agreed to that. I MAY require a polygraph - she has already agreed to it. I MAY require her to leave her job - she has already agreed to that.
> 
> What I promise is that I won’t leave you all hanging in the dark. You have given me good advice and I so appreciate it. Some of it I have taken all the way, some I have taken halfway, and some I have rejected. But your advice all comes from experience and from a good place - where you want to see marriages succeed. Thank you for helping me. I will let you know what happens.


That's a good start, but that's all it is for now until her actions match her words. 

Do not accept any rugsweeping attempts and go thru with the polygraph. We've seen here in the forum, where the cheater readily consents to the polygraph, then later change their mind.

Remember, you're the BS here, its up to her to EARN a chance at R, not the other way around. It's her that has to rebuild the trust she destroyed, and that means being transparent for as long as you need her to, to feel safe again. 

You will know that you're in True R and not False R, when her actions are consistent over time, not just a few weeks or a few months. A truly remorseful WS will want to rebuild the marriage and trust that they destroyed. An unremorseful WS will go back on their promises after a few weeks or months. 

So you have to be watchful. Trust but verify.


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## carpenoctem

*Originally Posted by zing61 *

QUOTE:
_Guys: She is doing everything right. I am going to take a chance on this woman. I love her. Other than this one huge failing, she is gorgeous inside and out. She was one in a million when I met her. She has been one in a million since I’ve been married to her - every guy I know is (well WAS) jealous of my relationship with her - we do really amazing cool things together - we do long distance multi-day bike rides, she backpacks with me, she skis with me, she climbs mountains with me. She very well could be the one in a million spouses who really didn’t have a PA while having an EA. I KNOW I could be hurt again 12 months from now. I KNOW I can’t trust her now and that our relationship will have to change. But what we had was so great, so exceptional, that I have to take that chance - you can see that can’t you?_
UNQUOTE



Whenever I hear something like this, I immediately wonder about the converse side – whether his wife would say the same for him. Whether she has ever cherished him / what they had together as much as this, or in a similar fashion.

Not, I presume.




I guess that is an irony of human pairing and the relationship game.


Best of luck, Zing.
If I were a woman, I would have loved to hear my spouse say that about me.


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## warlock07

zing61 said:


> Talked with her again tonight instead of going on a ride. I was again very terse. Told her again I believed it to be a PA. She cried and asked how she can prove to me it wasn’t. I suggested a polygraph - she immediately accepted. I told her it was up to her to save the marriage and she agreed - she is going to contact a marriage counselor and set it up for us. Again tells me how sorry she is - how it was such a bad thing for her to do. Tells me that the reason she broke it off was that she was disgusted with herself - she is disgusted with herself today. She will do ANYTHING to be with me - I half-heartedly suggested moving away and starting over - she immediately agreed. I half-heartedly suggested leaving her job - she immediately agreed.
> 
> Guys: She is doing everything right. I am going to take a chance on this woman. I love her. Other than this one huge failing, she is gorgeous inside and out. She was one in a million when I met her. She has been one in a million since I’ve been married to her - every guy I know is (well WAS) jealous of my relationship with her - we do really amazing cool things together - we do long distance multi-day bike rides, she backpacks with me, she skis with me, she climbs mountains with me. She very well could be the one in a million spouses who really didn’t have a PA while having an EA. I KNOW I could be hurt again 12 months from now. I KNOW I can’t trust her now and that our relationship will have to change. But what we had was so great, so exceptional, that I have to take that chance - you can see that can’t you?
> 
> I will NOT trust her - she knows that. I will verify her whereabouts and her communications - she thinks I should. I will insist upon counseling that she sets up - she has agreed to that. I MAY require a polygraph - she has already agreed to it. I MAY require her to leave her job - she has already agreed to that.
> 
> What I promise is that I won’t leave you all hanging in the dark. You have given me good advice and I so appreciate it. Some of it I have taken all the way, some I have taken halfway, and some I have rejected. But your advice all comes from experience and from a good place - where you want to see marriages succeed. Thank you for helping me. I will let you know what happens.


parking lot confessions.


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## Squeakr

sidney2718 said:


> Do we think that if it turns out that she told Zing the truth right from the start that we should apologize?


Apologize for what? 

WW had an affair (for how long we don't know), and during that affair went to the guys house alone several times, exchanged several "heated" and "passionate" emails (and possibly phone calls, etc, works for the same company and close to the OM, and then hid the entire thing (lying by omission) for several years with no intention of ever revealing this affair. When confronted WW deleted all the evidence that could prove the innocence and depth of the affair. This could be a one off situation and could be the only one discovered, we will never know due to her ability to compartmentalize it, and the desire too not tell the truth but instead hide it.

The good is that she is willing to do what it takes at this point to make things right. She is wiling to take a poly, answer all questions quit her job, and anything else necessary. This is VERY good. 

These are all things known and all we have done is offer advice and our opinions based upon this situation, the evidence presented, and the fact that this is the way most of these play out. IF his is different, then he is the exception and not the rule. IF it turns out that he has gotten the truth that is good and she is one of the few that didn't take it further but it still doesn't change the fact she cheated and lied about it for years. He still wouldn't know to this day had he not discovered it, so I think no apology would be i order (except from his wife, which she is trying to do, for her cheating, we didn't create this situation, he didn't create it, only SHE did).


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## Chaparral

She is in save the ship mode now. She is offering to do anything to save a marriage she once took for granted and easily risked destroying.

Hopefully, this is good news.

But, you haven't related why she says she did it. After all she now says it disgusted her. But she risked breaking up her family and damaging everyone in it.

I hope with the rest here this works out wish you good luck.

After the shock of getting caught though wears off, take her for the poly. Check local or state law enforcement for the operators they use. There are some out there that are simply worthless.

Do not try to rush this. This is as serious as a heart attack. If you rush this without consequences she will see you as weak and easy.


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## PhillyGuy13

None of us are clairvoyant. 

We all offer (free) advice on an Internet forum. Advice is given based on the circumstances posted. OP is welcome to take or leave any advice given, and take it with a grain of salt. We would be doing him and others reading a disservice if we didn't point out the numerous and major red flags to his situation.

The only person who owes Zing an apology is his wife. And it seems to me she had taken that step. I for one will be very happy if turns out that dirty emails were "All" there was to this situation. In my opinion this wasn't somthing out of nothing, to be swept away as if he found out she got a parking ticket 6 years ago and now he finds out about it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## convert

Maybe I am off base hear but shouldn't the emails he saved from his WW indicate if it were physical?
Most cheating spouses talk about their twist in graphic detail and are not that carful most of the time.
OP if you have not read the emails in detail do so. I would think there would be evidence in them....maybe.

although it may not have been physical with the way she has agreed right of way to do the ploy but we have seen cases here that it is damage control and will agree to anything.

but you are in better shape then most BS's


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## convert

PhillyGuy13 said:


> None of us are clairvoyant.
> 
> We all offer (free) advice on an Internet forum. Advice is given based on the circumstances posted. OP is welcome to take or leave any advice given, and take it with a grain of salt. We would be doing him and others reading a disservice if we didn't point out the numerous and major red flags to his situation.
> 
> The only person who owes Zing an apology is his wife. And it seems to me she had taken that step. I for one will be very happy if turns out that dirty emails were "All" there was to this situation. In my opinion this wasn't somthing out of nothing, to be swept away as if he found out she got a parking ticket 6 years ago and now he finds out about it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:


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## badmemory

zing61 said:


> I suggested a polygraph - she immediately accepted. I told her it was up to her to save the marriage and she agreed - *she is going to contact a marriage counselor and set it up for us.*


Good for you Zing. I'm glad she's willing to take it.

Don't want to nitpick, but you should tell her thank you; but you'll handle setting up the poly.


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## Squeakr

badmemory said:


> Good for you Zing. I'm glad she's willing to take it.
> 
> Don't want to nitpick, but you should tell her thank you; but you'll handle setting up the poly.


I think he meant she is contacting and setting up the MC and not the poly.


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## Squeakr

convert said:


> Maybe I am off base hear but shouldn't the emails he saved from his WW indicate if it were physical?
> Most cheating spouses talk about their twist in graphic detail and are not that carful most of the time.


I would disagree with that. It depends on how the A was conducted. For those that don't have easy access to the AP and it is conducted mainly through emails, then yes, but for those that have easy access to each other through direct contact, work, phone, etc, lots of times they don't discuss such things (at least not in graphic details, and use such wordings as, "that was fun and can't wait to do it again" or "I love it when you do that to me" ). These are just vague enough that they hint at the actions but could as easily be explained as that they enjoyed their time together and nothing physical occurred. Right now only 2 people know that truth and one of them isn't the op.

I do hope for the best in this situation for the op.


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## thummper

Zing, it actually sounds like you have a pretty good marriage with your WW. She seems to be very sincere in her denials that the EA actually crossed the BIG line. Can you share a little of what you found in those long-ago e-mails that makes you think the affair really DID go PA? Must have been something really raunchy to convince you that they had taken it to the next level.


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## lordmayhem

sidney2718 said:


> Do we think that if it turns out that she told Zing the truth right from the start that we should apologize?


WTF? An EA is just as bad as a PA, I can tell you that right now and it's just as devastating and hurtful. Many BWs will say the emotional part is worse than the physical part. Its just that for many men, a PA is the final deal breaker. 

The circumstantial evidence certainly shows the opportunity for the PA itself. The passionate emails, the close proximity in which they work (a building away is close proximity IMHO), going to the OM's house alone, etc. Does he even have access to her paystubs and can he see if she has any unaccounted missing vacation/time off days? They can easily call in sick or take vacation time, then pretend to their spouses that they're going to work, but use it to spend the day together or at a hotel. I've seen that type of situation in real life.

I'm shocked that you would even think that "we" should apologize. zing needs to know the truth. Even if by the extremely unlikely chance that it didn't go PA....an affair is still an affair. No one here would owe zing an apology, like others have said, his WW does.


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## larry.gray

lordmayhem said:


> Does he even have access to her paystubs and can he see if she has any unaccounted missing vacation/time off days? They can easily call in sick or take vacation time, then pretend to their spouses that they're going to work, but use it to spend the day together or at a hotel. I've seen that type of situation in real life.


If she's salaried the vacation hours don't matter. Legally, you only have to vouch a vacation day if you don't show up at all. If you disappear for a few hours, you don't have to vouch it. I'm gone all the time from work and there is no record of it (except maybe no sent emails and no meetings at the time I'm out).


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## Lancer

While and EA is very bad, in my opinion it is not as bad as a PA. An EA is often infatuation and fantasy. It is very wrong to let that fantasy develop into an EA. When it goes physical, your spouse has now given another person their body. They have let it go well beyond fantasy. They have thrown their marriage out the door. I think an EA is easier to fix than a PA. To know that your spouse had so little respect for you to throw it all out is hard to ever forgive.


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## BlueGray

lordmayhem said:


> WTF? An EA is just as bad as a PA, I can tell you that right now and it's just as devastating and hurtful. Many BWs will say the emotional part is worse than the physical part. Its just that for many men, a PA is the final deal breaker.


Not everyone would agree with you on this. An emotional affair is bad enough, but add the physical to that and the whole thing is compounded. There are so many factors to consider and each relationship is different.
In my case, my husband had various emotional affairs, but the one that hurt me the most was the physical affair. That is what gave me the mind movies, not the emotional affair. It is also what made me afraid for my physical safety due to not knowing what he could be carrying. Testing does not turn up everything. He could have warts, herpes, etc. that would not necessarily turn up in testing. The idea of my spouse putting me in physical danger due to his stupid issues is what caused the most pain for me.


larry.gray said:


> If she's salaried the vacation hours don't matter. Legally, you only have to vouch a vacation day if you don't show up at all. If you disappear for a few hours, you don't have to vouch it. I'm gone all the time from work and there is no record of it (except maybe no sent emails and no meetings at the time I'm out).


Exactly. There are many ways that people can get around this by appearing to be at work when they are not. Even a lunch break can be used to conduct an affair.


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## michzz

Hope you are not ignoring red flags because of her physical beauty and ability to enjoy leisure activities.


----------



## southernsurf

I would agree - an EA is walking up to the line - a PA is crossing the line of no return. I'm done with a PA, an EA can be fixed........


----------



## BWBill

_WTF? An EA is just as bad as a PA, I can tell you that right now and it's just as devastating and hurtful. Many BWs will say the emotional part is worse than the physical part. _

It certainly can be as bad or worse, but not necessarily. I can see a short infatuation as hurtful, but forgivable. Impassioned I love you's and wishing she was with the posom instead of stuck in a marriage with a loser or wimp could be worse. The OP has the emails; he can decide.


----------



## harrybrown

Has she written a timeline of the A before you schedule the polygraph?

I would take her up on getting a different job.

I also think it would be good to have a sit down with the other couple. But keep your distance and chose a public place.(not at their house or yours)


----------



## tom67

harrybrown said:


> Has she written a timeline of the A before you schedule the polygraph?
> 
> I would take her up on getting a different job.
> 
> I also think it would be good to have a sit down with the other couple. But keep your distance and chose a public place.(not at their house or yours)


:iagree::iagree:


----------



## Cynthia

It may be better to contact the OM's wife first. If she is willing, she could do some digging on her own and see if she comes up with more information that could clarify what happened. She may be able to find additional information in her husband's phone, e-mails, etc. that would help clarify the situation.
Right now it is difficult to know what exactly happened, because it is more difficult to prove that something did happen rather than trying to prove that something didn't happen.


----------



## Chaparral

For those posting that hink an ea is not as bad as a pa, go through the old threads and see the trail of destructions. Also, many pas are purely physical or short lived. An ea is all about falling out of love and being in love with someone else. Often times with people they haven't even met. That way the cheater doesn't see any of the real person and its all raibows and unicorns.


----------



## BlueGray

Chaparral said:


> For those posting that hink an ea is not as bad as a pa, go through the old threads and see the trail of destructions. Also, many pas are purely physical or short lived. An ea is all about falling out of love and being in love with someone else. Often times with people they haven't even met. That way the cheater doesn't see any of the real person and its all raibows and unicorns.


It depends on the person. For me, when my husband, put me in physical danger, that was the worst thing I could imagine. Him telling some stupid dysfunctional idiot that he loved her was very damaging to me, but for him to screw someone and then come back home and screw me with that same tool that could have been infected with who knows what - that sent me into the worst pain. He could have killed me! An emotional affair does not threatened my life. A physical affair did.
He is supposed to protect me, not put me in physical danger, but that never even crossed his mind.
And yes, we had testing for a whole range of STDs. Nothing came up, but 3 years later, I still feel concerned, because some viruses can live in the human body for years before showing up.


----------



## sidney2718

Q tip said:


> Yah, like she did to him...


If you are pro divorce just say so.


----------



## sidney2718

tom67 said:


> It sounds like she gets it.
> How about you and her go see the pos's wife together show some of the emails and she can apologize to her then you never speak to them again.


While I understand why you suggest this, I do want to know what Zing gets out of it. Revenge is useless and just causes more pain. If there's no gain for Zing, I'd be against it.


----------



## sidney2718

Squeakr said:


> Apologize for what?
> 
> WW had an affair (for how long we don't know), and during that affair went to the guys house alone several times, exchanged several "heated" and "passionate" emails (and possibly phone calls, etc, works for the same company and close to the OM, and then hid the entire thing (lying by omission) for several years with no intention of ever revealing this affair. When confronted WW deleted all the evidence that could prove the innocence and depth of the affair. This could be a one off situation and could be the only one discovered, we will never know due to her ability to compartmentalize it, and the desire too not tell the truth but instead hide it.
> 
> The good is that she is willing to do what it takes at this point to make things right. She is wiling to take a poly, answer all questions quit her job, and anything else necessary. This is VERY good.
> 
> These are all things known and all we have done is offer advice and our opinions based upon this situation, the evidence presented, and the fact that this is the way most of these play out. IF his is different, then he is the exception and not the rule. IF it turns out that he has gotten the truth that is good and she is one of the few that didn't take it further but it still doesn't change the fact she cheated and lied about it for years. He still wouldn't know to this day had he not discovered it, so I think no apology would be i order (except from his wife, which she is trying to do, for her cheating, we didn't create this situation, he didn't create it, only SHE did).


It is clear that you do not believe a word that she, as reported by Zing, says. But Zing, who knows her best, does believe it. And he believes the emotions that go with it. And his trust is not blind and probably never will be.

This sort of situation is not unusual. In fact it is rather common. You can check through the old threads in this section and find all sorts of instances of a repentant wife and reconciliation that worked.

Zing has been warned to look out for the things you are worried about. I have no doubt that he will do that. I also think that he could use some support.


----------



## sidney2718

lordmayhem said:


> WTF? An EA is just as bad as a PA, I can tell you that right now and it's just as devastating and hurtful. Many BWs will say the emotional part is worse than the physical part. Its just that for many men, a PA is the final deal breaker.
> 
> The circumstantial evidence certainly shows the opportunity for the PA itself. The passionate emails, the close proximity in which they work (a building away is close proximity IMHO), going to the OM's house alone, etc. Does he even have access to her paystubs and can he see if she has any unaccounted missing vacation/time off days? They can easily call in sick or take vacation time, then pretend to their spouses that they're going to work, but use it to spend the day together or at a hotel. I've seen that type of situation in real life.
> 
> I'm shocked that you would even think that "we" should apologize. zing needs to know the truth. Even if by the extremely unlikely chance that it didn't go PA....an affair is still an affair. No one here would owe zing an apology, like others have said, his WW does.


Many here decided straight away that Zing's wife was lying. Why assume that? Why not wait for more information? Why keep telling him that no matter what she says, he should not believe her? Those are not helpful things.

Zing's attitude was to believe but to check and verify. I agree with that. And I also think that Zing is entitled to support in that. Many have now done that. I think the rest of us should await further developments.


----------



## sidney2718

Chaparral said:


> For those posting that hink an ea is not as bad as a pa, go through the old threads and see the trail of destructions. Also, many pas are purely physical or short lived. An ea is all about falling out of love and being in love with someone else. Often times with people they haven't even met. That way the cheater doesn't see any of the real person and its all raibows and unicorns.


Let me horn in here since I seem to have started this. What I said was that there are all sorts of EA's, some are fairly harmless and others are very bad. What I was getting at was simply this. EA's can be as bad as PA's, but they can also be a lot less bad than a PA.

And by the way, many women seem to think that some EA's are worse than some PA's. Men tend to the opposite.


----------



## Q tip

sidney2718 said:


> If you are pro divorce just say so.



Huh? I say I'm anti-cheating. Put not words where there are none sir.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Q tip said:


> Huh? I say I'm anti-cheating. Put not words where there are none sir.


LOL. You have to remember, some posters believe you are on a "side" when you don't hold their beliefs.


----------



## wmn1

sidney2718 said:


> It is clear that you do not believe a word that she, as reported by Zing, says. But Zing, who knows her best, does believe it. And he believes the emotions that go with it. And his trust is not blind and probably never will be.
> 
> This sort of situation is not unusual. In fact it is rather common. You can check through the old threads in this section and find all sorts of instances of a repentant wife and reconciliation that worked.
> 
> Zing has been warned to look out for the things you are worried about. I have no doubt that he will do that. I also think that he could use some support.


He is getting support and with the rash of rugsweepers we've had on here recently, you are making assumptions that are often wrong. Just saying .......


----------



## bandit.45

sidney2718 said:


> While I understand why you suggest this, I do want to know what Zing gets out of it. Revenge is useless and just causes more pain. If there's no gain for Zing, I'd be against it.


I've taken revenge on many people. It felt damn good..

I support revenge. I advocate it.


----------



## Working1

So sorry you are going through this.

There isn't any such thing as a perfect relationship. As long as you are involved with somebody who holds themselves accountable in general, you are able to meet each others needs, are supportive of each others growth and as long as you are able to grow as a person while sharing a commitment with this person than you are pretty much as good as it gets.

People that hold themselves accountable are not rug sweepers.

People make mistakes sometimes.

Make sure she isn't somebody who has a personality disorder, is not impulsive in general and think as to whether her personal life is in shambles or is she living an authentic life with integrity. If she is, than it is probably worth working it out.

You know what kind of person she is. You might need some time to reflect on it for a bit to make sure you are not rug sweeping yourself, and then you will know what to do.

Good luck.


----------



## princevinco

My candid advice is that you should never allow the issue crash your marriage. In as much as i never support infidelity for any reason, you should have a sufficient proof that the two had ever slept not that you are suspecting them. Ask yourself "what if they are only casual friends and not lovers?.

Moreover, you should ask yourself if you have secrets yourself which is unknown to her?. We all have secrets, some are buried deep within us that trying to excavate them may hurt you to the marrow so it is better to let go the past. Believe me, you may feel hurt the more trying to excavate explanation from your wife . 

Finally, practice forgiveness for that is what makes marriage work because we could as well be guilty ourselves. So if your wife is deeply sorry and repentant, do forgive her with the whole of your heart. Remember what i said earlier, never allow the issue crash the marriage you took time to build.


----------



## Divinely Favored

zing61 said:


> Blossom Leigh said:
> 
> 
> 
> bpguy, why do you not recommend poly?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes please bpguy: Why? I am reluctant to go this route anyway
> . . . .
Click to expand...

most of it is n who is giving the poly, talk to local law enforcement find out the reputable poligrapher they use and go with them. if you lived in the dallas-fort Worth area I could give you the name of the firm my office uses to catch our sex offenders violating their conditiond of parole. It's harder to defeat a polygraph then what people think it is there's only a few ways to do that.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

I guess we've had a rash of broom salesmen sign up for TAM lately, I dont know.

Zing- you were right to be concerned. A ton of red flags. Be vigilant going forward. Remember what I said about the poly-- or the threat of one. Should give you peace of mind, or as much peace of mind as someone in your sh!tty circumstances can get. (Circumstances you did NOT create, I will add)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

bfree said:


> The thing that still would bother me is that she spent time at his house many times during the EA and supposedly nothing happened. To me that seems unlikely.


Oddly enough, I spent many hours at the home of my OW/EA and we never so much as kissed or even touched each other.

We spent our time drinking *alcohol and watching Star Trek videos.

It was an "innocent" (*HAH!*) EA until one day we decided to go far, far too far.

It's possible Zing's wife never took it to that stage.

OW and myself both had issues (different issues) but we were both self-medicating with alcohol. We were a disaster waiting to happen.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

princevinco said:


> My candid advice is that you should never allow the issue crash your marriage. In as much as i never support infidelity for any reason, you should have a sufficient proof that the two had ever slept not that you are suspecting them. Ask yourself "what if they are only casual friends and not lovers?.
> 
> Moreover, you should ask yourself if you have secrets yourself which is unknown to her?. We all have secrets, some are buried deep within us that trying to excavate them may hurt you to the marrow so it is better to let go the past. Believe me, you may feel hurt the more trying to excavate explanation from your wife .
> 
> Finally, practice forgiveness for that is what makes marriage work because we could as well be guilty ourselves. So if your wife is deeply sorry and repentant, do forgive her with the whole of your heart. Remember what i said earlier, never allow the issue crash the marriage you took time to build.


These rewrites and blame shifting are getting ridiculous. If I ask my wife not to see someone and she disappears, that's all the proof I need. I am not saying I won't go OCD for proof like zing, just disagreeing with this notion of "discretion, truth and love" beat the obvious FACTS.

He asked her to stop, just like any spouse should be able to do whenn something makes them uncomfortable. She didn't understand and she went to Def-Con 1 and left the marriage. 

Your secrets comment is a red herring, unless you are implying he is a cheater. A secret love for cigarettes, is not the same as a secret love for a possible affair partner.


----------



## weightlifter

bandit.45 said:


> I've taken revenge on many people. It felt damn good..
> 
> I support revenge. I advocate it.


#klingonsalute


----------



## tom67

bandit.45 said:


> I've taken revenge on many people. It felt damn good..
> 
> I support revenge. I advocate it.


:iagree::iagree:
As long as you aren't going to screw yourself in the bigger picture go for it.
Men have become pvssies through the public school system, television it's pretty sad.


----------



## clipclop2

And they are so much more respected acting out of revenge. Yeah.


----------



## larry.gray

clipclop2 said:


> And they are so much more respected acting out of revenge. Yeah.





Kyle said:


> Dude, I think it might be best for us to never piss Cartman off again.


----------



## clipclop2

I'm South Park ignorant. Apologies.


----------



## tom67

Autharitaaa!
Never really got into it.
Back in the day Family Guy rocked.


----------



## Iver

No question at all - you need to notify the OM's wife. Show her the text messages and go over the time frame with her. 

1. She may be able to dig up information or have facts about what was going on that could be useful to you.

2. Golden Rule. You'd want to be informed if the shoe was on the other foot. Extend her the same courtesy.

3. Once burned, twice shy. This may cool the OM's jets about future entanglements so you might be helping some other family avoid what you are now going through.


----------



## tom67

Iver said:


> No question at all - you need to notify the OM's wife. Show her the text messages and go over the time frame with her.
> 
> 1. She may be able to dig up information or have facts about what was going on that could be useful to you.
> 
> 2. Golden Rule. You'd want to be informed if the shoe was on the other foot. Extend her the same courtesy.
> 
> 3. Once burned, twice shy. This may cool the OM's jets about future entanglements so you might be helping some other family avoid what you are now going through.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## Squeakr

sidney2718 said:


> It is clear that you do not believe a word that she, as reported by Zing, says. But Zing, who knows her best, does believe it. And he believes the emotions that go with it. And his trust is not blind and probably never will be.
> 
> This sort of situation is not unusual. In fact it is rather common. You can check through the old threads in this section and find all sorts of instances of a repentant wife and reconciliation that worked.
> 
> Zing has been warned to look out for the things you are worried about. I have no doubt that he will do that. I also think that he could use some support.


Doesn't matter if I believe her or not, or if the OP believes her or not, or if the situation is usual or unusual. She cheated, lied, hid it for years, and is now covering it up. These are all on her and we and the op owe her no apology for what she has done.

What do you suggest he say? Sorry, I didn't believe you recently as you cheated on me years ago, violated our vows, lied to me for years, hid it from me for years, and have recently broken my trust yet a again by deleting everything and trying to cover it up all the while destroying me inside and causing me undue amounts of pain, despair, and questioning of our marital history? Yeah, that's a good idea and would go over well. Once again like I said he owes her no apology as it is hers to own and all her actions and he owes no apology for being hurt by them.


----------



## Squeakr

sidney2718 said:


> Many here decided straight away that Zing's wife was lying. Why assume that? Why not wait for more information? Why keep telling him that no matter what she says, he should not believe her? Those are not helpful things.


Most said "they" didn't believe her and she was probably still lying. It is the cheaters script and yes, she was and has been lying. She has been lying for years by omission and covering up. Just because she wasn't out and out telling him some nose growing story, by perpetuating the myth that everything was happy and healthy in the relationship she was lying to him. Sorry but it is very hard to believe a serial liar. She has been hiding this for years and would continue to until death, if she had her way. Does this sound like someone, that when confronted had the gall to delete the evidence and gaslight, that has the internal fortitude to just fess up to everything and be believed from the get go? Just as we have seen some that have been telling the truth when confronted the norm is to lie and continue to perpetue that myth until the very last, heck some have gone as far as to take the poly and fail they were that committed.

AsI have stated time and again, I wish the op luck and hope he is getting the entire truth now and it wasn't as bad as it appears, as that is something that all of us have wanted from the start from our WS.


----------



## Magnet

So this OM has received what i am assuming are nude pics of your wife and then he only works a couple of blocks away from her. I would find it hard to imagine that they had not hooked up during a lunch break a time or two. I would probably contact the OMs wife as well. I would talk to her as if i assumed she was in on it though. If you are certain she ended it based on her emails, I'd ask her why? Why did she all of a sudden decide that it was wrong? What happened that made her stop? More than likely they got physical and that excitement she got from sexting turned into guilt and shame from cheating. These are just ideas from my warped brain but i think based off your messages that you already suspect that she got physical. I hope i'm wrong


----------



## Forest

Is telling the truth, and being honest revenge? 

I can't imagine anyone objecting to truth and honesty.


----------



## sidney2718

I had posted:



> Originally Posted by sidney2718 ￼
> It is clear that you do not believe a word that she, as reported by Zing, says. But Zing, who knows her best, does believe it. And he believes the emotions that go with it. And his trust is not blind and probably never will be.
> 
> This sort of situation is not unusual. In fact it is rather common. You can check through the old threads in this section and find all sorts of instances of a repentant wife and reconciliation that worked.
> 
> Zing has been warned to look out for the things you are worried about. I have no doubt that he will do that. I also think that he could use some support.


To which Squeakr responded:



Squeakr said:


> Doesn't matter if I believe her or not, or if the OP believes her or not, or if the situation is usual or unusual. She cheated, lied, hid it for years, and is now covering it up. These are all on her and we and the op owe her no apology for what she has done.
> 
> What do you suggest he say? Sorry, I didn't believe you recently as you cheated on me years ago, violated our vows, lied to me for years, hid it from me for years, and have recently broken my trust yet a again by deleting everything and trying to cover it up all the while destroying me inside and causing me undue amounts of pain, despair, and questioning of our marital history? Yeah, that's a good idea and would go over well. Once again like I said he owes her no apology as it is hers to own and all her actions and he owes no apology for being hurt by them.


To which I respond with no sarcasm intended....

Squeakr, that's an interesting response. I'd love to read the post that it is a reply to. But but your post has nothing to do with the post of mine you quoted. Unless when I said at the end that Zing could use some support you interpreted that to mean that Zing should apologize or something.

It means nothing of the sort. TAM's mission is to support folks who come here with troubled marriages. That's all.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

sidney2718 said:


> TAM's mission is to support folks who come here with troubled marriages. That's all.


TAM's mission is to give marriage advice. Sometimes it is warm fuzzy loving support and sometimes it is cold hurtful loving truth. If you choose to support a decision that's entirely up to you. If others do not it is entirely up to them. Neither way is wrong or right, until it becomes disrespectful.


----------



## Squeakr

Funny that you are cherry picking how you want to quote and relate the posts as your original question was do we owe her an apology if it turns out she was telling the truth? I responded in the same way to that as I did in that response which is she cheated and we owe her nothing (although that doesn't support your current positions and thoughts and doesn't allow you to put me down so you are leaving those other quotes out). 

I have responded several times that he needs to do what is best for his marriage and I am envious and wish I was getting just a portion of the response the op is, but you still feel the need to question my motives and my viewpoints and cherry pick the quotes to insult me. So much for your theory of support as where is yours? Guess we can only support the thread starter and not others in the thread is that how it works (as when you don't agree with a post you put it and the poster down rather then support them in their position. How is your picking apart my quotes helping the op)? 

I stand by my first and second responses in that she brought this on herself and we owe her nothing by way of an apology. If you can't see how I was responding and to what then you need to go back and read more and call people out less.


----------



## larry.gray

Squeakr said:


> She has been hiding this for years and would continue to until death, if she had her way. Does this sound like someone, that w*hen confronted had the gall to delete the evidence and gaslight, that has the internal fortitude to just fess up to everything and be believed from the get go?* Just as we have seen some that have been telling the truth when confronted the norm is to lie and continue to perpetue that myth until the very last, heck some have gone as far as to take the poly and fail they were that committed.



What none of us know is what was in her mind those 5 years. If she had a conscious, she was struggling with confessing. The hardest part would be starting the conversation.

Being caught may be a relief from that struggle. Given the opportunity to confess, she may have confessed all. 

I'm not saying that you could count on that, by any means. I just think we shouldn't rule it out completely.


----------



## Squeakr

I agree but unless I am mistaken I recall reading that when discovered she had basically said it happened years ago and she had put it out of her mind, forgotten about it and had moved on from the affair. Doesnt sound like someone that was thinking about confessing her indiscretion.


----------



## Q tip

Zing...

How goes it?


----------



## CH

Don't back down on the poly. Her story seems very credible but cheaters can lie and not even blink once. We hope love will blind you to the truth.


----------



## sidney2718

CH said:


> Don't back down on the poly. Her story seems very credible but cheaters can lie and not even blink once. We hope love will blind you to the truth.


I agree with you, and yet I disagree with you too. Polys are very flawed tools. They depend on too many things in addition to honesty. Some folks are physiologically set up so that the poly always reports true. Or perhaps always reports false. Operators try to account for this by mixing in questions with known answers in order to check.

And polys are inconsistent.

Summing it up, the best thing about them is that they can reveal the truth, if you can recognize that the answer was true. But that can be hard to do. So you can have a wife take a poly and give you an unexpected answer that you don't believe. And you then destroy your marriage over it. And if you are lucky you never find out that the answer was true.

Or it can work the other way entirely.

I do believe that in most jurisdictions in the US, lie detector evidence is not accepted in court. The Feds rely on it because they have nothing better, so some agents get burned (tough luck, fella) and some get passed who should be burned (tough luck, Feds).

We humans are complicated beasts.


----------



## clipclop2

Since most people fear the poly more than they believe they can argue a failed result is in error, if you use the threat and something drops out prior to the big day, you know there is more.

If nothing drops out then you have to be willing to accept the results and cross reference them with your knowledge and judgement.

Choosing questions carefully is important.


----------



## Chaparral

sidney2718 said:


> I agree with you, and yet I disagree with you too. Polys are very flawed tools. They depend on too many things in addition to honesty. Some folks are physiologically set up so that the poly always reports true. Or perhaps always reports false. Operators try to account for this by mixing in questions with known answers in order to check.
> 
> And polys are inconsistent.
> 
> Summing it up, the best thing about them is that they can reveal the truth, if you can recognize that the answer was true. But that can be hard to do. So you can have a wife take a poly and give you an unexpected answer that you don't believe. And you then destroy your marriage over it. And if you are lucky you never find out that the answer was true.
> 
> Or it can work the other way entirely.
> 
> I do believe that in most jurisdictions in the US, lie detector evidence is not accepted in court. The Feds rely on it because they have nothing better, so some agents get burned (tough luck, fella) and some get passed who should be burned (tough luck, Feds).
> 
> We humans are complicated beasts.


But this is the point. If your trust in someone has been so damaged that you can't believe them, they have to take their chances with a poly. Its simply their last option. If hey fail and they were telling the truth its just too bad. They shouldn't have put themselves in the position of having their honest questioned in the first place. I. E. all we did was kiss one, time. Etc.etc.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

From what I've read on TAM over and over it is the threat and anticipation of the poly that reveals truths, more so than the poly, which yes we've been told may or may not be reliable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## clipclop2

That last part is just too bad for both parties. that's why you have to come up with a plan for how you are going to deal with the results. 

there was a time when I would say that people, most people anyway, wouldn't waste their money on a polygraph if they formed at least hoping that they were going to find out what they're being told the truth. they go in hoping to have the stories confirmed. 

so if it turns out that there is a false negative it's really sad for those people. But there's not much else you can do except for go for another poly. Or throw caution to the wind. 

If you go in without a decision tree that is firm, you might end up in worse shape.


----------



## Q tip

PhillyGuy13 said:


> From what I've read on TAM over and over it is the threat and anticipation of the poly that reveals truths, more so than the poly, which yes we've been told may or may not be reliable.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Same with DNA tests for the kids. It's for the shock of it, the seriousness of the issue not the debate if it's your kid. -- That is if the results turn out well.


----------



## clipclop2

I disagree about using a DNA test for shock value. I think it over steps a boundary when you bring in the kids especially if there isn't a strong suspicion. and if the kids catch wind of it they might not take it well. you could tell him all you want that you had no intention of not taking care of them if it turned out that they weren't yours but they will always feel that you might have walked away from them which will scare the crap out of them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sidney2718

Q tip said:


> Same with DNA tests for the kids. It's for the shock of it, the seriousness of the issue not the debate if it's your kid. -- That is if the results turn out well.


No. There are basically no false results from a DNA test. There are both false positives and false negatives with polygraph tests.

You have to understand: you can think she had an affair and the poly test can say she's lying when she denies it -- but the poly test is wrong. Then you divorce her for being a skank and all you did is ruin a perfectly good marriage.


----------



## Squeakr

sidney2718 said:


> You have to understand: you can think she had an affair and the poly test can say she's lying when she denies it -- but the poly test is wrong. Then you divorce her for being a skank and all you did is ruin a perfectly good marriage.


How can you make this statement as it is contradictory? If you believe that your spouse is cheating on you and is either a skank or ass and suspect them so much that you need a poly, then you didn't have a "perfectly good marriage" to ruin. People in perfectly good marriages don't name call and have such suspicions of their spouses, so this isn't something they just decide out of the blue to do. Issues exist that cause the need, and therefor the marriage is struggling if it gets to this point.

I don't agree that the poly is the end all be all, but it can elicit the responses desired (and I agree that it is mainly done for the shock value, although few people fall on the fringe that can beat one. DNA tests also are not unfailable either. I have never seen one come back 100%, as there is always a margin of error, which if it was exact there would be 100% accuracy, so there is questionability in regards to them as well.


----------



## larry.gray

clipclop2 said:


> I'm South Park ignorant. Apologies.


No need to apologize. It is rated one of the best south park episodes (Scott Tennerman must die). 

The basic plot is Scott Tennerman makes a fool out of Cartman. Every time Cartman attempts revenge, all of the other boys hate him so they warn Scott and Scott thwarts him and turns it back on Cartman. He escalates and escalates the severity of the revenge. Eventually Cartman figures out what is happening and feeds false information to the other boys and Scott falls into his trap.


----------



## larry.gray

PhillyGuy13 said:


> From what I've read on TAM over and over it is the threat and anticipation of the poly that reveals truths, more so than the poly, which yes we've been told may or may not be reliable.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Poly's are pseudoscience. They only work because people think they work. If you know they are bunk, and go into the test knowing for certain they are bunk, they are easy to fool.


----------



## thummper

I'd still like to know what exactly Zing found in those e-mails that had him absolutely convinced that she and the OM had taken the affair to the next level. It had to be something pretty incriminating, some reference to a sexual experience they shared. And yet she adamantly insists that nothing physical happened. Very curious.


----------



## Cynthia

Squeakr said:


> How can you make this statement as it is contradictory? If you believe that your spouse is cheating on you and is either a skank or ass and suspect them so much that you need a poly, then you didn't have a "perfectly good marriage" to ruin.


That's not what he said. He said that the poly can be wrong and show that she is lying when she is not. Then he divorces her for thinking she is a "skank" when she really is not. Thus a perfectly good marriage is ruined by misinformation.



sidney2718 said:


> No. There are basically no false results from a DNA test. There are both false positives and false negatives with polygraph tests.
> 
> You have to understand: you can think she had an affair and the poly test can say she's lying when she denies it -- but the poly test is wrong. Then you divorce her for being a skank and all you did is ruin a perfectly good marriage.


----------



## Squeakr

Yes I knew what he said but if one suspected how can you say it was a perfectly good marriage?. Perfectly good marriages don't have this type of labeling/name calling and suspicions within them those are the signs of marriages on the verge of failure. That is the contradiction. This suspicion wouldn't exist in a perfectly good marriage and she wouldn't have cheated in a perfectly good marriage. The name calling also shows that one has deeper suspicions than the poly provided so the marriage was greatly flawed at that point and had nothing to do with the poly. 

Yes a marriage may be destroyed but not a perfectly good marriage hence the contradiction. Such a thing was gone long prior to the poly if it gets to that and the marriage was already failing through no fault of the poly.


----------



## clipclop2

*Re: Re: Just found out wife had affair 6-7 years ago . . .*



larry.gray said:


> Poly's are pseudoscience. They only work because people think they work. If you know they are bunk, and go into the test knowing for certain they are bunk, they are easy to fool.


Have you tested this?

I mean, yourself?


----------



## Cynthia

I actually know someone who beat a lie detector test.


----------



## clipclop2

What were the circumstances?


----------



## michzz

28 pages into this I want to comment.

Your garden-variety cheating spouse is unlikely to be sophisticated enough to beat a polygraph, let alone having even seen one.

So to me, the worth of the test is to judge their reaction, about having to take one. Also, the parking lot press done on them to confess is useful.

And actually taking the test is likely to get to the nut to crack: are their answers truthful?

None of what I just wrote applied to sociopaths, Internet experts who apparently spend lots of time figuring out how to beat a polygraph test, etc.


----------



## 2asdf2

CynthiaDe said:


> I actually know someone who beat a lie detector test.


There is nothing to beat because it is junk science.

All the poly measures is nervousness.

There are many reasons for someone to be nervous.

For our purposes a false negative is as bad as a false positive.

New research is promising using functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging (fMRI)


----------



## Cynthia

clipclop2 said:


> What were the circumstances?


He was in the military. There were rumors of drug use. He was polygraphed. The rumors were true. He actually had a personal grow operation. He was completely cleared due to the polygraph.


----------



## Squeakr

CynthiaDe said:


> He was in the military. There were rumors of drug use. He was polygraphed. The rumors were true. He actually had a personal grow operation. He was completely cleared due to the polygraph.


That doesn't prove he beat the poly, just that he possibly beat the examiner and the test proved nothing either way as these tests are only as reliable as the examiner. Depending on how the questions were asked could have changed the outcome, as well as the way the results were posted. If they were found inconclusive, that proves nothing but sometimes that is accepted as sufficient proof and considered a pass in certain situations, also why were there not several "surprise" drug test to prove one way or another, if drug use was suspected? Having been in the military, I think there is more to this story than you are revealing or know. I had several within my unit that she discovered it was through drug tests and never was a poly involved and this was in the Meth capitol of the world (and they were dealing as well). Also being in the military can things a bit too, as depending on the unit and training that the person has they could be predispositioned to control their emotions and thus beat a poly (think about people trained in POW situations, interrogations, special forces, etc as they get training to not let things affect them as normal people would, so they can;t be lumped into the same crowd as the average person).


----------



## clipclop2

Yeah. Those guys who come out to the house with their home MRI for $500 are amazing!


----------



## 2asdf2

clipclop2 said:


> Yeah. Those guys who come out to the house with their home MRI for $500 are amazing!


You are correct.

Polys are $500-700.

But: Palm readers are $20.


----------



## Yeswecan

2asdf2 said:


> There is nothing to beat because it is junk science.
> 
> All the poly measures is nervousness.
> 
> There are many reasons for someone to be nervous.
> 
> For our purposes a false negative is as bad as a false positive.
> 
> New research is promising using functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging (fMRI)


Just clinch your butt cheeks with every question and failure is assured.


----------



## Chaparral

sidney2718 said:


> No. There are basically no false results from a DNA test. There are both false positives and false negatives with polygraph tests.
> 
> You have to understand: you can think she had an affair and the poly test can say she's lying when she denies it -- but the poly test is wrong. Then you divorce her for being a skank and all you did is ruin a perfectly good marriage.


The point, it looks to me like, is that since some type of affair was going on, the marriage was no where near perfect. The marriage will not be ruined by a a bad poly. It simply couldn't be fixed with the help of a poly.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Polygraph: 
with well-crafted questions, skilled examiner and data analyst.
then I, personally, would expect to have no more than about a 2% chance of "beating" a polygraph. so agree they are not 100%; more like 98% 

to find a murderer, big city (US) police departments will often take an individual off their suspects list if they pass a polygraph.

Zing - 
BTW I'm also one of those that has never experienced infidelity in my marriage. my opinion is that you need to schedule a poly for her ASAP. have her tske it and perhaps talk to the OM's wife if you think that might throw more light on things. do this stuff - get it over with! 
so these questions aren't hanging over your marriage for years to come.......


----------



## carmen ohio

thummper said:


> I'd still like to know what exactly Zing found in those e-mails that had him absolutely convinced that she and the OM had taken the affair to the next level. It had to be something pretty incriminating, some reference to a sexual experience they shared. And yet she adamantly insists that nothing physical happened. Very curious.


What is also curious is the incongruity between the fact that she did not delete the incriminating e-mails when she supposedly ended the affair and her explanation that she ended the affair because "the sexting part became 'gross' to her." If she eventually came to see the e-mails as gross, why did she not delete them until they were discovered?

Like a number of others, I believe zing61 should insist that she take a polygraph test. Yes, she seems to be saying all the right things, but think how many times other WSs on TAM/CWI have done the same only to be found out later to be liars.


----------



## sidney2718

Squeakr said:


> How can you make this statement as it is contradictory? If you believe that your spouse is cheating on you and is either a skank or ass and suspect them so much that you need a poly, then you didn't have a "perfectly good marriage" to ruin. People in perfectly good marriages don't name call and have such suspicions of their spouses, so this isn't something they just decide out of the blue to do. Issues exist that cause the need, and therefor the marriage is struggling if it gets to this point.


Your experience and mine don't agree on this. We don't get folks here asking us how to repair a marriage that has been damaged by unfounded accusations.



> I don't agree that the poly is the end all be all, but it can elicit the responses desired (and I agree that it is mainly done for the shock value, although few people fall on the fringe that can beat one. DNA tests also are not unfailable either. I have never seen one come back 100%, as there is always a margin of error, which if it was exact there would be 100% accuracy, so there is questionability in regards to them as well.


A poly can elicit the responses desired, especially in folks who don't know much about them or who are not educated about them.

The "margin of error" in a DNA test is because the usual DNA test does not compare complete strands of DNA. They look for what are called "markers" and find a number of those and report. Two folks can have the same markers but still have differing DNA.

But if their complete DNA's are compared, the "error" shrinks toward zero.

Fingerprints suffer from the same problem. Only a relatively few markers are checked, but the entire fingerprint can be examined.


----------



## sidney2718

michzz said:


> 28 pages into this I want to comment.
> 
> Your garden-variety cheating spouse is unlikely to be sophisticated enough to beat a polygraph, let alone having even seen one.
> 
> So to me, the worth of the test is to judge their reaction, about having to take one. Also, the parking lot press done on them to confess is useful.
> 
> And actually taking the test is likely to get to the nut to crack: are their answers truthful?
> 
> None of what I just wrote applied to sociopaths, Internet experts who apparently spend lots of time figuring out how to beat a polygraph test, etc.


Polygraph - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## sidney2718

I had written:



> You have to understand: you can think she had an affair and the poly test can say she's lying when she denies it -- but the poly test is wrong. Then you divorce her for being a skank and all you did is ruin a perfectly good marriage.





Chaparral said:


> The point, it looks to me like, is that since some type of affair was going on, the marriage was no where near perfect. The marriage will not be ruined by a a bad poly. It simply couldn't be fixed with the help of a poly.


Please note that you accidently assumed something that I did not state. I nowhere said that she was actually having an affair. The H can think she has, push her into taking a lie detector test, and when she fails it, he can then divorce her with a clear mind. And it is totally possible that she was not lying. That's marriage destruction by lie detector.


----------



## sidney2718

nuclearnightmare said:


> Polygraph:
> with well-crafted questions, skilled examiner and data analyst.
> then I, personally, would expect to have no more than about a 2% chance of "beating" a polygraph. so agree they are not 100%; more like 98%
> 
> to find a murderer, big city (US) police departments will often take an individual off their suspects list if they pass a polygraph.


Your figures are way off. Please check the Wikipedia page on polygraphs.


----------



## Cynthia

It has already been established that she was having an affair. It has not been established whether it went physical or not.


----------



## sidney2718

CynthiaDe said:


> It has already been established that she was having an affair. It has not been established whether it went physical or not.


I have been speaking about lie detector tests, not about Zing's particular situation.

My personal feeling is that lie detector tests are useless.


----------



## Squeakr

sidney2718 said:


> Your experience and mine don't agree on this. We don't get folks here asking us how to repair a marriage that has been damaged by unfounded accusations.


Actually we do get that quite a bit. The people are asking how to get over the fact that their spouse accused them of cheating, controlling, abusing, or whatever else and how can they move beyond and from these unfounded accusations. I came here trying to figure out how to overcome this exactly as my STBXW falsely led everyone to believe the worst about me (it was her way of rewriting the history of the M and accepting her reasoning for cheating). Like others though I realized that the M was broken and not the Perfectly good M I thought it was. The fact is that when people come here, their M is in trouble, The suggestions and advice offered here are not counterproductive to their M situations, as they are broken. Yes, they might be something that could destroy and harm a perfectly good M, but that is not the case here as I have never seen one of those here where the poster was asking for advice. 

I challenge you to find me one thread on this forum where the M was perfectly good prior to the poster coming to this forum and the advice given made it worse (as several times I have see you use the phrasing about a perfectly good M being destroyed by advice given here and I have never seen a perfectly good M coming here for advice). Posters come here because their M is in trouble, struggling, and has issues, so to say that a perfectly good M would be destroyed by the poly has NEVER been a case within this forum and to imply that it fit in this case is also unfounded (and contradictory as this M is broken liken most on here).


As to using markers, that is exactly what a poly does as well. It establishes a base line and then uses markers to measure the deviation and therefor draw the conclusion of a movement away from the truth.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

sidney2718 said:


> Your figures are way off. Please check the Wikipedia page on polygraphs.


is wikipedia really a credible source for such a subject? some of their their article citations could be, but the author of the analysis in the posted article is....whom? 

I maintain an open mind though....


----------



## Squeakr

sidney2718 said:


> I have been speaking about lie detector tests, not about Zing's particular situation.
> 
> My personal feeling is that lie detector tests are useless.


I tend to agree with you on this about polys, but your statements were taken as they were relating directly to Zing's situation (as that is how they read) and that is why several of us took issue with them (I also hold to the ideal that if one is seeking out a poly there is more there than some misguided ideals, there is something more broken/wrong within the marriage, therefor it was not a perfectly good one to be destroyed by a poly).


----------



## Squeakr

nuclearnightmare said:


> is wikipedia really a credible source for such a subject? some of their their article citations could be, but the author of the analysis in the posted article is....whom?
> 
> I maintain an open mind though....


I just brought up the same question about wikipedia and it's credibility in another thread and am being called out for even questioning such a thing. I feel that if it isn't a reliable source for academia then why should it be for us (yes, as I stated in that thread, many of the articles cited are valid and verifiable, so why not just cite the instead of the craigslist/ cliff notes of sources where anyone with an agenda can edit the information).


----------



## larry.gray

sidney2718 said:


> I have been speaking about lie detector tests, not about Zing's particular situation.
> 
> My personal feeling is that lie detector tests are useless.


They aren't useless because so many people think they work. They get people to confess things because they think the poly will catch their lies.


----------



## lordmayhem

Yet another thread that has been threadjacked by the usual debate about polygraphs. This isn't a thread about the validity or effectiveness of polygraphs. Its a tool that zing can choose to use or not.

If you doubt the effectiveness of the polygraph, then take it to another thread and stop hijacking threads.


----------



## bandit.45

lordmayhem said:


> Yet another thread that has been threadjacked by the usual debate about polygraphs. This isn't a thread about the validity or effectiveness of polygraphs. Its a tool that zing can choose to use or not.
> 
> If you doubt the effectiveness of the polygraph, then take it to another thread and stop hijacking threads.


It usually boils down to a pissing match between the usual threadjackers, who nobody pays attention to anyway. I call them the "skip posters". When I see their avatars I skip right on over them.


----------



## Chaparral

sidney2718 said:


> I had written:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please note that you accidently assumed something that I did not state. I nowhere said that she was actually having an affair. The H can think she has, push her into taking a lie detector test, and when she fails it, he can then divorce her with a clear mind. And it is totally possible that she was not lying. That's marriage destruction by lie detector.


She had an emotional affair that included sexting. Sexting that she herself described as disgusting and descriptive enough that her husband was convinced it was a physical affair. I don't think there is any doubt this marriage is not great at this point.


----------



## bigfoot

a poly is helpful. FBI uses them on its own employees. Same for Some LEO agencies. Its a test of some value. In my profession, attorney, if I can get a dismissal if my client passes, I will do it. IF THEY PASS THEIR OWN TEST FIRST. If you fail your own, you'll fail theirs. My point, its useful, but not perfect. Mostly depends on your examiner. When I was a prosecutor, we had this one guy who always read his results as "undetermined". Never had an examiner who always interpreted results as deception indicated or deception not indicated. I'd do one in this case. actually 2. i would use diff examiners and not reveal results until both done.


----------



## 3putt

bandit.45 said:


> It usually boils down to a pissing match between the usual threadjackers, who nobody pays attention to anyway. I call them the "skip posters". When I see their avatars I skip right on over them.


I call them pigeon posters. They fly in, drop their sh!t all over the place, then fly away. 

Just useless and counter-productive, especially considering how many countless times the truth has been revealed through the mere threat of a poly, let alone actually going through with it.

It's ridiculous.


----------



## Q tip

Why is it they hardly ever converse with the OP but "opinion-ate" all over someone's helpful inputs. Seems the goal is smoke and attention with zero value-added noise...


----------



## manfromlamancha

Where is Zing? Are you still there?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

LOL. I swear, I'm glad I'm not a Mod. These poly arguments are just as bad as religious arguments. No one is right, everyone against your position is wrong and we have pages upon pages of derails.


----------



## clipclop2

God told me not to be polygamous or polytheistic. Why is it I'm fine with polygraphs?


----------



## LongWalk

Water boarding is better than a polygraph. You can get all the details quickly.


----------



## Squeakr

LongWalk said:


> Water boarding is better than a polygraph. You can get all the details quickly.


And if done right, you can also find the whereabouts of the Lindburg baby, and the identity of the shooter on the grassy knoll. LOL :smthumbup:


----------



## Served Cold

zing61 said:


> Hi all:
> 
> So here is my story: I had a good friend contact me and tell me his wife was having an affair, that she had left him, demanded a divorce, etc. My wife and I were both absolutely stunned as we had no clue whatsoever that this was coming and we were very close to this couple.
> 
> So, I was looking through this site, trying to see if their were ways I could help my friend, and I started reading the infidelity forum and started getting a strange feeling in my gut about a "friendship" that my wife has had with a couple whom we have done many things with over the years. On a whim, on 10/2 afternoon I went and searched her personal e-mail and found that she had been sexting with this guy several years ago, but it looked like it had ended. I (fortunately) sent myself all of the worst e-mails to examine later so I could try to piece this thing together.
> 
> I confronted her with the evidence on 10/2 evening and she admitted to the sexting, told me there was never anything physical between the two of them and that it had "only" been an emotional affair. She said over and over how sorry she was and how she was wrong to do it, even though she was feeling very "badly" about herself at the time. Unfortunately, we had to take a camping vacation with my siblings and father the next day, so it was very difficult to continue the conversation.
> 
> During the trip, I was extremely pissed at her for a couple of days - just had nothing to do with her, but finally broke down one night and had sex with her, then the next night was the same. She kept saying over and over how sorry she was, how she knows it was wrong, how she feels very badly that she hurt me, etc., etc. This morning (after yet another roll in the hay - isn't that a little weird that I still want her that way?) I told her that this wasn't over by a long shot - she asked me what she had to do. I told her that ONE thing she has to do is give me a long, detailed explanation.
> 
> So, we just got home late last night, and checked her e-mail this morning. Lo and behold all of the e-mail messages to this guy that had been in existence 5 days ago are now gone (I don't think she knew how many of them I had seen and saved). The only time she could have done it was the day after I confronted her, but before we left for the trip. Going through and looking at the copies I had saved, I simply cannot believe these two were not having a full blown affair at the time. I also recall her going over there at the time and spending a lot of time there - I always thought it was to spend time with the couple - and it may have been - I have a weird feeling that she might have been sleeping with both of them. But regardless, I believe she was sleeping with the guy, and it may have lasted anywhere from 7-8 months to a few years. The e-mails between the two of them are just too personal and there were too many opportunities for them not to have slept together.
> 
> I am now really pissed at her because of her deletion of the e-mails. I have not confronted her with this yet because I just found out about that particular nugget of dog **** this morning. She keeps insisting "it is not as bad as it looks." If that were the case, why would she delete the e-mails? I think she is still deceiving me, by trying to erase the evidence (that I don't think she knows I have).
> 
> I truly believe that what she had with this guy (maybe couple?) is over. Some of her e-mails to him have shown indications of that. I've checked her e-mail, phone and message records for the past few months and there is next to nothing to/from the guy. She does have to have some contact with him because she works with him. I am afraid the next time I see him though, that he will not make it out of the encounter alive - we WERE good friends with this couple.
> 
> Also don't know if I should tell his wife. I THINK she is a good, sweet person, and I don't want her to go through what I am going through now - particularly now that I truly believe it is over. What do you all think?
> 
> Next, I don't really know how I feel about all of this - mostly just confused. I am 53 years old, she is 51. I THOUGHT she had been a tremendous wife and mother all of these years - I really did think she was a great person, and a tremendous partner. Our two children are 19 and 21 and out of the house and doing well. Don't know that I want to reconcile with somebody who might do this to me again in the future - no matter how gorgeous she is - and she is a drop-dead beautiful athletic woman - and I can't emphasize enough how kind and decent she otherwise is to me and to all of our friends.
> 
> Any advice? Thanks so much for letting me get this down - even just writing this has helped.




Your wife, not only deceived you, she made a fool of you by socializing as couples with the man she was involved with. Not only did she make a fool of you she made a fool of the wife of the guy by pretending to be her friend.

It's one thing to cheat, but to watch you interact and have a friendship with the man who is screwing her, or hoping to screw her, is bordering on evil. 

Your wife had no problem to deceive you and the wife of the guy she was sexting and fooling around with. She's not a good wife or a good friend. Your wife has a secretive and selfish side of herself. She has the ability to do what she wants and no one is not exempt.

Recognize that your wife can lie and can deceive. She is not the woman she pretends to be. She has a cruel and selfish side that she's hidden from you.


----------



## clipclop2

How's it going Zing?


----------



## Rugs

Posted under the wrong thread. Deleted.


----------



## Chaparral

Served Cold said:


> Your wife, not only deceived you, she made a fool of you by socializing as couples with the man she was involved with. Not only did she make a fool of you she made a fool of the wife of the guy by pretending to be her friend.
> 
> It's one thing to cheat, but to watch you interact and have a friendship with the man who is screwing her, or hoping to screw her, is bordering on evil.
> 
> Your wife had no problem to deceive you and the wife of the guy she was sexting and fooling around with. She's not a good wife or a good friend. Your wife has a secretive and selfish side of herself. She has the ability to do what she wants and no one is not exempt.
> 
> Recognize that your wife can lie and can deceive. She is not the woman she pretends to be. She has a cruel and selfish side that she's hidden from you.



I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up before. No matter how sorry she seems now, with what zing has posted and what we've seen here, its hard to believe this is an exception. I sure hope it is though.


----------



## Iver

I hope Zing is OK and not the recipient of some bad news.

Unfortunately the old saying "Where there's smoke, there's fire" usually is correct.


----------



## MattMatt

I have sent Zing a PM. Just to let him know we are thinking of him.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

My sixth sense says things did not go well here. Hopefully I'm wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

Good news! Zing and wife are both doing well.

He's asked me to tell folks here that they are working on it, making it, and that he is praying and hoping for everyone else in his situation that it works out for them as well his is working out for him.

Rest assured, he is not being blind to her behaviour, and he isn't rug-sweeping. 

They are both aware of how serious it is and it's a wake up call for both of them.

He is now certain it was EA and not PA.

They are in counselling and he'll drop in to the thread at some point in the future.

I gave both of them my best wishes.


----------



## zing61

Ok: I am sorry I have taken so long to post here about what has happened. My wife and I went through MC together - very helpful. We were able to see where we had made mistakes in the past and take actions to prevent those mistakes in the future. Eventually, I met with the OM and hashed it out with him - just like my wife, he swears nothing physical ever happened, apologized profusely over and over. He told his wife - I have not spoken with her. Basically, I want nothing to do with him ever again, including speaking with his wife. His wife and mine have spoken - I think the friendship there is basically over - something I am not sad about.

My wife has been a model spouse - done everything I have asked of her and more. I am still wary of her - I don't know that it can ever be the same between us again - there is a stiffness to my interactions with her that were not there pre-EA. She is working very hard on us - she makes time for me all the time and is almost desperate for physical affection from me - which is not as forthcoming as it once was. I just don't seem to be as . . . . interested in her. I am continuing to work at this - she is still "my one and only", but it is hard. 

I guess what it comes down to is that I have to have faith that it will turn out ok for us - and I do have that faith . . . as I said, it is just hard sometimes. I know it hurts her that I cannot be the same with her as I once was, but she certainly understands why. 

So, that is my report. I don't know that I have a lot more to tell you all. Yes, I believe R has been successful to this point, but it has not been easy. Thank you all for your help in getting me through those difficult times.


----------



## just got it 55

Hoping the best for you Zing!!

55


----------



## bandit.45

Good going Zing. 

Give yourself time. The trust will come back slowly if she is consistent in showing you she is a safe partner. You are on your timeline, not hers. Stay in counseling, work on bettering yourself and doing the things you need to do to improve your life. Don't neglect her. If you don't feel like having sex with her...have sex with her anyway. Its a mind over matter thing.


----------



## ReidWright

zing61 said:


> He told his wife - I have not spoken with her.


uh huh. right. 

you might want to compare stories, just to verify.


----------



## Graywolf2

zing61 said:


> I am going to take a chance on this woman. I love her. Other than this one huge failing, she is gorgeous inside and out. She was one in a million when I met her.
> 
> She has been one in a million since I’ve been married to her - every guy I know is (well WAS) jealous of my relationship with her - we do really amazing cool things together - we do long distance multi-day bike rides, she backpacks with me, she skis with me, she climbs mountains with me.


Do what makes you happy. It sounds like you will have a very happy and active retirement. Congratulations. 



zing61 said:


> Eventually, I met with the OM and hashed it out with him - just like my wife, he swears nothing physical ever happened, apologized profusely over and over. *He told his wife - I have not spoken with her*.


Your wife had months to beg the OM not to ruin your marriage. You trust the OM to tell you the truth? He told his wife on his own?



zing61 said:


> I also recall her going over there at the time and spending a lot of time there - *I always thought it was to spend time with the couple *- and it may have been - I have a weird feeling that she might have been sleeping with both of them.
> 
> Basically, I want nothing to do with him (OM) ever again, including speaking with his wife.


*So you never asked the OMW if she was there when your wife was "spending a lot of time" over there and you never will?*



zing61 said:


> His wife and mine have spoken - I think the friendship there is basically over.


*IF the OM told his wife about the affair*, I think your wife tried to make peace with her old friend and also begged her not to divulge the PA. The OMW may have promised not to contact you but not to lie to you. It might be worth a call. 



zing61 said:


> I suggested a polygraph - she immediately accepted. I told her it was up to her to save the marriage and she agreed.


You didn't ever have the poly, did you?

If you don’t want to know I understand. But don’t only look in places where you know you won’t find anything and then take comfort in the fact that you didn't find anything. The OMW and the poly were where you should have gone but you avoided them. 

_*"This is your last chance. After this there is no turning back. You take the blue pill: the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill: you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes." - Morpheus, The Matrix*_


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## Chaparral

For the amount of time that has passed, you are doing very well. This isn't something you get over in a matter of months. It takes many months if both of you can hang in there.

Good luck


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## Decorum

zing61 said:


> Ok: I am sorry I have taken so long to post here about what has happened. My wife and I went through MC together - very helpful. We were able to see where we had made mistakes in the past and take actions to prevent those mistakes in the future. Eventually, I met with the OM and hashed it out with him - just like my wife, he swears nothing physical ever happened, apologized profusely over and over. He told his wife - I have not spoken with her. Basically, I want nothing to do with him ever again, including speaking with his wife. His wife and mine have spoken - I think the friendship there is basically over - something I am not sad about.
> 
> My wife has been a model spouse - done everything I have asked of her and more. I am still wary of her - I don't know that it can ever be the same between us again - there is a stiffness to my interactions with her that were not there pre-EA. She is working very hard on us - she makes time for me all the time and is almost desperate for physical affection from me - which is not as forthcoming as it once was. I just don't seem to be as . . . . interested in her. I am continuing to work at this - she is still "my one and only", but it is hard.
> 
> I guess what it comes down to is that I have to have faith that it will turn out ok for us - and I do have that faith . . . as I said, it is just hard sometimes. I know it hurts her that I cannot be the same with her as I once was, but she certainly understands why.
> 
> So, that is my report. I don't know that I have a lot more to tell you all. Yes, I believe R has been successful to this point, but it has not been easy. Thank you all for your help in getting me through those difficult times.


Thank you for the update Zing. 
Apart from the pain of her seeking her needs with someone else and the question it put in your mind about her trustworthiness, the bottom line is that you discovered a flaw in your wife that you were not aware of.

She handled her being in a bad place wrongly, but people grow from their failures and she has shown strength of character to face and work on herself and the relationship.

There have been times when my children have disappointed me and did something that I sadly felt was damaging to them, but as they have grown and learned from those mistakes I really respect the persons they have become. I still remember the pain and fear I felt at their failure but I have such joy at the persons they have become.

My respect for them is stronger than it has ever been because I have seen them struggle, invest in themselves and overcome.

Zing I think you can safely respect your wife for how she has handled this and for the growth in character she has shown.

Accept who she is today and let your respect fully return to her, she is worthy of it. 

Be at peace with her, acknowledge it and praise her for her efforts.

*Hold the pain and joy in that loving balance that accepts and embraces someone for who they are however imperfect their path may have been on the way there.*

I really wish you well,
take care.


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## MattMatt

zing61 said:


> Ok: I am sorry I have taken so long to post here about what has happened. My wife and I went through MC together - very helpful. We were able to see where we had made mistakes in the past and take actions to prevent those mistakes in the future. Eventually, I met with the OM and hashed it out with him - just like my wife, he swears nothing physical ever happened, apologized profusely over and over. He told his wife - I have not spoken with her. Basically, I want nothing to do with him ever again, including speaking with his wife. His wife and mine have spoken - I think the friendship there is basically over - something I am not sad about.
> 
> My wife has been a model spouse - done everything I have asked of her and more. I am still wary of her - I don't know that it can ever be the same between us again - there is a stiffness to my interactions with her that were not there pre-EA. She is working very hard on us - she makes time for me all the time and is almost desperate for physical affection from me - which is not as forthcoming as it once was. I just don't seem to be as . . . . interested in her. I am continuing to work at this - she is still "my one and only", but it is hard.
> 
> I guess what it comes down to is that I have to have faith that it will turn out ok for us - and I do have that faith . . . as I said, it is just hard sometimes. I know it hurts her that I cannot be the same with her as I once was, but she certainly understands why.
> 
> So, that is my report. I don't know that I have a lot more to tell you all. Yes, I believe R has been successful to this point, but it has not been easy. Thank you all for your help in getting me through those difficult times.


You can get there. It's not easy, it's a long path, but you'll do it, eventually. :smthumbup:


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## GusPolinski

ReidWright said:


> uh huh. right.
> 
> you might want to compare stories, just to verify.


:iagree:


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## workindad

Op glad you and your wife are improving. 

Posom is not reliable. You might want to consider sending posom said wife a copy of the emails you have so she can see it all for herself. I do believe she has a right to know everything. 

I hope you and your wife continue your path of healing. 

Wd


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## aine

Zing, hope you and your wife continue to grow into a new more fulfilling relationship and with time that you will be able to trust again.


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## sparrow555

I find it hard to believe that it never went physical..Would anything change if it did ?

It went over an extended period of time. Looks like she is one of the "lie until my death" type


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## BetrayedDad

zing61 said:


> he swears nothing physical ever happened


I only have this input to add because you still seem blindly trusting to me and I doubt me telling you to stop it will change that.

If you want to R then go ahead. It's your life and your prerogative. However, if you think an emotional affair between coworkers AND friends that lasted a YEAR, that involved sexting and NUMEROUS opportunities to be alone for extended periods of time, didn't go physical at any point, then you are as big a fool as they played you for.

If you can accept that they definitely had sex multiple times and are lying to you about it but you still want to R then more power to you. Some people have a "let sleeping dogs lie" mentality and can live with that. I just would hate to see you under the delusion that you are only choosing to reconcile because you actually believe they didn't have sex. It's preposterous to accept their word that they didn't.


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## turnera

BetrayedDad said:


> If you want to R then go ahead. It's your life and your prerogative. However, if you think an emotional affair between coworkers AND friends that lasted a YEAR, that involved sexting and NUMEROUS opportunities to be alone for extended periods of time, didn't go physical at any point, then you are as big a fool as they played you for.


Worth repeating. Not because of who your wife is but because it was a MAN she was spending all that time alone with.


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## NoChoice

OP,
There comes a time when one must take control over one's own doubts and fears. Your story and mine are not that dissimilar and I too struggle with the issue of complete trust. It is my most ardent detractor. I also find that my attraction for her is not what it once was and I have actually declined intimacy, more than I can believe, which I would not have thought possible just a few years ago. I do sincerely believe that in our cases particularly, that a lack of intellect was the root cause. The phrase " I can't believe I did something so stupid", I believe, is spot on accurate.

I have never, in over 30 years of marriage, even considered another woman. Even with our sometimes protracted periods of no intimacy I still never considered it. The thought that she could is deeply troubling and haunting, even in light of her extensive efforts to rectify things. I fear I have been forever altered, as it seems you do as well. Perhaps it would be in both our best interests to, at this point, accept, at face value, the deeply remorseful and contrite expressions we have received and to move ahead.

The past certainly shapes our future but we cannot allow it to control the future and although what has happened is often an indicator toward a tendency to what will happen, it must not necessarily be so. Perhaps burying the past is sometimes the better course of action and offers the best hope of a new beginning. I offer this for your consideration...and mine. I wish you good fortune.


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## manfromlamancha

Zing, I am truly glad that things are working out for you and your wife. She sounds like she really does love you (and you, her).

However, I do agree that sharing the emails with the OW would be a good thing to do.

As a matter of interest, how bad was the content of the emails you uncovered ? You were at one stage convinced (even without the help of TAM) that it was physical. Why ? What made you think this ?

A poly would have been a wise thing to do just to remove doubt.


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## RWB

"_just like my wife, he swears nothing physical ever happened,_"

Damn... Cheater Script 101.

Wake Up... Sex is the currency of the affair (Mori).


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## thenub

That's 2190-2555 days of her lying to you until you found out. Ouch!!


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## OldWolf57

Zing, in spite of all said, "this is your marriage". So if you feel you have all the details to continue it, then do so.
We see many here, and all in ways are the same but not the same.
It's the individuals involved that makes the difference.


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