# My WWW called me



## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

For anyone who has read my original thread regarding my BPD/NPD wife, she called me on Sunday morning at 3:30 am. Didn't leave a message or anything... so I emailed her this morning and asked what she wanted... This crazy lady said she was missing me. This lady has put me through emotional hell for 3 years with cheating on me with her x, witholding sex and basically I allowed her to walk all over me... she moved out while I was at work and vanished... now 3 months later, she misses me?

I hate this. I am so in love with her I can't see straight... but she is toxic. 

I am trying hard not to fall back into her trap.. 

Anyone else in this situation? Any advice?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Advice.

If she is BPD/NPD and acted out through your relationship then do not see her. Go to no contact and file for divorce. You will get over the feeling of being in love.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Advice.
> 
> If she is BPD/NPD and acted out through your relationship then do not see her. Go to no contact and file for divorce. You will get over the feeling of being in love.


Neither of us can afford a divorce right now...

She acted out all the time in our relationship... I was married to a 'child princess'. I catered to her daily and she crapped all over me. 

But the feelings I have for her are overpowering my sense of judgement.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

If you know she is toxic and it is a toxic relationship, why would you do that to yourself???


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## Twofaces (Dec 5, 2011)

What exactly is it that you love about her?

Serious question.


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Ostera said:


> For anyone who has read my original thread regarding my BPD/NPD wife, she called me on Sunday morning at 3:30 am. Didn't leave a message or anything... so I emailed her this morning and asked what she wanted... This crazy lady said she was missing me. This lady has put me through emotional hell for 3 years with cheating on me with her x, witholding sex and basically I allowed her to walk all over me... she moved out while I was at work and vanished... now 3 months later, she misses me?
> 
> I hate this. I am so in love with her I can't see straight... but she is toxic.
> 
> ...


She goes to IC.

If you think you might still want to work it out with her, schedule some time to interact with her.

If she is improving, suggest MC.

She needs to fix herself (and you likely do to as well), before R can even be a possibility.

If you rugs weep, expect more of the same in no time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Ostera said:


> For anyone who has read my original thread regarding my BPD/NPD wife, she called me on Sunday morning at 3:30 am. Didn't leave a message or anything... so I emailed her this morning and asked what she wanted... This crazy lady said she was missing me. This lady has put me through emotional hell for 3 years with cheating on me with her x, witholding sex and basically I allowed her to walk all over me... she moved out while I was at work and vanished... now 3 months later, she misses me?
> 
> I hate this. I am so in love with her I can't see straight... but she is toxic.
> 
> ...


She goes to IC.

If you think you might still want to work it out with her, schedule some time to interact with her.

If she is improving, suggest MC.

She needs to fix herself (and you likely do to as well), before R can even be a possibility.

If you rugsweep, expect more of the same in no time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

vi_bride04 said:


> If you know she is toxic and it is a toxic relationship, why would you do that to yourself???


Good question... my codependence. She knows she has huge emotional issues and can't seem to resolve them.. I know she never will. She 52. 

Still I am madly in love with her.. I try to 'fix' it and I know that I can't ... I know I am weak when It comes to her.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Ostera said:


> Neither of us can afford a divorce right now...
> 
> She acted out all the time in our relationship... I was married to a 'child princess'. I catered to her daily and she crapped all over me.
> 
> But the feelings I have for her are overpowering my sense of judgement.


The two of you have been marrie for 3 years? She is not living with you so obviously you can each support your selves?

How can you not afford divorce?

With such a sort term marriage you can do the divorce yourself.

I did mine in March 2012. It cost me a whopping $135.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

She has tried counseling in the past and it did no good.. she has tons of emotional baggage, abandonment issues, etc, etc.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

AZ courts self help center: Family Law > Divorce/Parenting Issues

What county do you live in. Some of them have more info and help.
Self-Service Center


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> The two of you have been marrie for 3 years? She is not living with you so obviously you can each support your selves?
> 
> How can you not afford divorce?
> 
> ...


I moved to a really crappy apartment when she left.. I couldn't afford the one we were in together.. I have a lot of debt and I really don't want this divorce.

I know it sound stupid, but I don't want to pay..


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

Twofaces said:


> What exactly is it that you love about her?
> 
> Serious question.


It just something about her... she is very attractive for one.. and when she isn't 'acting' out she is very charming...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

You know that you cannot fix her. You can only change how you interact with her.

She's 52, what you see is what you get.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Ostera said:


> I moved to a really crappy apartment when she left.. I couldn't afford the one we were in together.. I have a lot of debt and I really don't want this divorce.
> 
> I know it sound stupid, but I don't want to pay..


You do not want to pay what?


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## In_The_Wind (Feb 17, 2012)

Ostera said:


> I moved to a really crappy apartment when she left.. I couldn't afford the one we were in together.. I have a lot of debt and I really don't want this divorce.
> 
> I know it sound stupid, but I don't want to pay..


If this is true that you dont want the divorce then what is the problem ??? 2 choices here 1. acceptance of how you will be treated from here on out or 2. do something different which is what ele girl is referring to remember Nothing changes nothing changes


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

Ostera said:


> Good question... my codependence. She knows she has huge emotional issues and can't seem to resolve them.. I know she never will. She 52.
> 
> Still I am madly in love with her.. I try to 'fix' it and I know that I can't ... I know I am weak when It comes to her.


I don't think you are madly in love with her. If you were, you would be able to list more than "its just something about her" in your reasons as to why you love her. I think you are a 'fixer' and have a 'white knight' complex and her having so many problems is very attractive to you. B/c you WANT to fix her. 



Ostera said:


> She has tried counseling in the past and it did no good.. she has tons of emotional baggage, abandonment issues, etc, etc.


Again, more reasons for you to want to be with her, to "fix" her. 



Ostera said:


> It just something about her... she is very attractive for one.. and when she isn't 'acting' out she is very charming...


Charming is part of the whole NPD persona. And just b/c you are attracted to someone does not mean you are "in love" with them. 

Are you in IC? It sounds like you know she is bad for you and the relationship is bad but the urge to "fix" her is outweighing any rationality at this point on what is best FOR YOU.


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## Tony55 (Jun 8, 2012)

Ostera said:


> This lady has put me through emotional hell for 3 years with cheating on me with her x, witholding sex and basically I allowed her to walk all over me... she moved out while I was at work and vanished... now 3 months later, she misses me?


Forget you knew this girl, change your number if you have to, do not reinsert yourself into that hell. Think about this, she called at 3:30am, someone just dumped on her, she reached out for a bandage. You're a bandage, understand? How insulting is that? You're a thing to patch her boo boo, poor baby. Don't ever, ever call her back again. You aren't available. 3 damned 30 in the damned morning, seriously?

T


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> You do not want to pay what?


For the divorce... I have already spent all kinds of money on her, trying to keep her happy... She makes a lot more that I do but her and her money are soon parted.. She 'buys' stuff all the time.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

Tony55 said:


> Forget you knew this girl, change your number if you have to, do not reinsert yourself into that hell. Think about this, she called at 3:30am, someone just dumped on her, she reached out for a bandage. You're a bandage, understand? How insulting is that? You're a thing to patch her boo boo, poor baby. Don't ever, ever call her back again. You aren't available. 3 damned 30 in the damned morning, seriously?
> 
> T


I told her I was seeing someone.. she just called from her work about 30 minutes ago crying telling me she is still in love with me.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

Regarding 'why' I love her. 

She is fun to be with.. when she isn't wigging out.
I just love being around her.

When I first met her it was the classic 'Love at first sight' thing. I never felt that with me previous wife, nor with anyone else.

She can be very loving... but she has a dark side also.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Ostera said:


> For the divorce... I have already spent all kinds of money on her, trying to keep her happy... She makes a lot more that I do but her and her money are soon parted.. She 'buys' stuff all the time.


I found a source online that says that it costs $236 to file for divorce in AZ. So that could be the entire amount of the divorce.


Keep in mind that she has bad money management skills. You could end up responsible for 50% of any debt she has made. Over time that could be a lot more than $236.

Have you asked her about her paying for it?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Ostera said:


> I told her I was seeing someone.. she just called from her work about 30 minutes ago crying telling me she is still in love with me.


Are you really seeing someone?


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## Tony55 (Jun 8, 2012)

Ostera said:


> I told her I was seeing someone.. she just called from her work about 30 minutes ago crying telling me she is still in love with me.


Yeah, she's following the typical script, snag you, pull you back in, lock you down, dump on you, it will continue, never ending. You're still in her gravitational pull, that's what scary, there's no telling how this one will end up (well we know in the *end* she'll revert back to whatever she was when you two were under the same roof), you need to keep pushing outward, away from her pull. Every time you talk to her you're losing ground; she's trying to wear you down.

*This lady has put me through emotional hell for 3 years*

cheating on me with her x
Withholding sex
Walk all over me
Moved out while I was at work and vanished

_Vanished? Who does that? Think about that, who the hell vanishes?_

T


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Are you really seeing someone?


I just started.. but I don't have that 'feeling' with her...


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

Tony55 said:


> Yeah, she's following the typical script, snag you, pull you back in, lock you down, dump on you, it will continue, never ending. You're still in her gravitational pull, that's what scary, there's no telling how this one will end up (well we know in the *end* she'll revert back to whatever she was when you two were under the same roof), you need to keep pushing outward, away from her pull. Every time you talk to her you're losing ground; she's trying to wear you down.
> 
> *This lady has put me through emotional hell for 3 years*
> 
> ...


She did this to her x's also.... she told me in the beginning if she left me, I would never know... and I didn't...


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

She has shown her true colors and who she really is. She has shown you that she will not change - she is repeating the patterns of past relationships with you...

What makes you think things will be ok if you get back together with her??

Tony55 said it best - she is following the script. She will rope you back in and then start walking all over you again. At 52 yrs old, I highly doubt she will do the self reflection needed to change these drastic patterns in her relationships.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

vi_bride04 said:


> She has shown her true colors and who she really is. She has shown you that she will not change - she is repeating the patterns of past relationships with you...
> 
> What makes you think things will be ok if you get back together with her??
> 
> Tony55 said it best - she is following the script. She will rope you back in and then start walking all over you again. At 52 yrs old, I highly doubt she will do the self reflection needed to change these drastic patterns in her relationships.



What is sad is I believe she 'tries' to love me.. but she has so much emotional baggage from her childhood that never got resolved. Her father was a serial cheater on her mother.. She saw how devastating it was too her mother.. when she was 8 her mom had a nervous breakdown...

In her mind, all men cheat.. so she took on those traits from her father...


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## timeforpain (Apr 29, 2012)

Ostera said:


> But the feelings I have for her are overpowering my sense of judgement.


Realizing this is a HUGE step forward for you. Know that your feelings are your enemy right now and try to let your rationality prevail here. 

A lot of people aren't as lucky as you: they don't understand that their feelings are in the way of doing what's best for them. But you do. Every time you feel like picking up the phone, writing an email, sending a text to her, just stop and remember.... your feelings are clouding your judgment. Tap into that...


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

Ostera said:


> What is sad is I believe she 'tries' to love me.. but she has so much emotional baggage from her childhood that never got resolved. Her father was a serial cheater on her mother.. She saw how devastating it was too her mother.. when she was 8 her mom had a nervous breakdown...
> 
> In her mind, all men cheat.. so she took on those traits from her father...


If she knows this, has she tried to get into IC to resolve all of this baggage??

Yes, childhood trauma can cause issues but as adults we need to rise above that trauma and reclaim our lives. Falling back to "victim" status b/c our parents did this or that is a cop out.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

vi_bride04 said:


> If she knows this, has she tried to get into IC to resolve all of this baggage??
> 
> Yes, childhood trauma can cause issues but as adults we need to rise above that trauma and reclaim our lives. Falling back to "victim" status b/c our parents did this or that is a cop out.


She has tried counseling.. but she never sticks to it long enough for it to work... Maybe 6 months tops.. then she quits... 

She expects the counselors to 'fix it'. She never employs what they tell her..and she doesn't like to be critisized.. 

Also, she masks a lot of her behavior from the counselor because she is embarrassed by what she does... 

But obviously not too embarrassed to knock it off.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

All's I have to say, is if you decide to give this girl another shot (yes, she is a girl, not a woman) you are going to be in for years and years of more heartache. 

Good luck with whatever you decide.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ostera said:


> Neither of us can afford a divorce right now...
> 
> She acted out all the time in our relationship... I was married to a 'child princess'. I catered to her daily and she crapped all over me.
> 
> But the feelings I have for her are overpowering my sense of judgement.


 Those aren't feelings 'for her.' They are feelings of WORTHLESSNESS and NEEDING her to prop you up.

Did your parents raise you to deserve nothing better than to be used and abused? If nothing else, try to make THEM proud.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

turnera said:


> Those aren't feelings 'for her.' They are feelings of WORTHLESSNESS and NEEDING her to prop you up.
> 
> Did your parents raise you to deserve nothing better than to be used and abused? If nothing else, try to make THEM proud.


I just hate the fact that is my 3rd marriage and it's failing. My codependance gets me everytime.

I think COguy wrote a couple months back that I am the type to walk by 10 normal women and pick out one that needs fixed.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

So what are you doing to fix yourself?


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

turnera said:


> So what are you doing to fix yourself?


Nothing to be honest... I am confused and paralized sort of.. i'm just in a daze.

I know I need counseling and will seek that shortly.. I'm scared.


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## Twofaces (Dec 5, 2011)

Perhaps you are addicted to the drama??? You get a dopamine hogh from it all Were you raised bu alcoholic parents? A lot of drama in your childhood home? We tend to seek out that which we are most familiar with, good or bad.......


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ok, we'll be your armchair therapists, then. 

Tell us about your childhood.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

Twofaces said:


> Perhaps you are addicted to the drama??? You get a dopamine hogh from it all Were you raised bu alcoholic parents? A lot of drama in your childhood home? We tend to seek out that which we are most familiar with, good or bad.......


my upbbringing was normal...my father died when I was 19.. my mother and i don't really have a good relationship since I became an adult..

I think I have abandonment issues as well... I 'need' to be wanted...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What's wrong with your mom? How did she raise you?


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

turnera said:


> What's wrong with your mom? How did she raise you?


My mom basically abandoned us ( have have a younger brother and sister). When my dad died she was 39. About 3 years later she met a guy (they've been married over 30 years). Basically my mother 'needed' to be with someone.. 

Her mindset was always 'once you're out the door you're on your own.'

Anytime I have tried in the past to talk to her when I had issues her response is, 'I don't know what to tell you."

So eventually I quit trying to get advice from her, etc. She doesn't drink or smoke or anything like that.. i think she just has the mindset that she raised us and now she is living her life.

She took good care of us as children. I think she just got into her new life. 

I don't expect anything from her, but it would be nice to be able to have her listen with some compassion.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

My mom would never play a game with us. That was kid stuff - bored her. The only way I could spend time with her was if I played solitaire against her and my dad. Closest we ever came to doing stuff together. 

It has had a profound effect on me.

I'm more interested in what your childhood was like, not young adulthood. Who was dominant? How were things done? How were you punished? Were you punished? How much time did they spend on you? Stuff like that.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

turnera said:


> My mom would never play a game with us. That was kid stuff - bored her. The only way I could spend time with her was if I played solitaire against her and my dad. Closest we ever came to doing stuff together.
> 
> It has had a profound effect on me.
> 
> I'm more interested in what your childhood was like, not young adulthood. Who was dominant? How were things done? How were you punished? Were you punished? How much time did they spend on you? Stuff like that.


I got whipped with a belt for punishment by my mom until around 8.. then dad took over because my mother couldn't hit me hard enough for it to have a effect.

The one thing my mom did growing up was not wanting us to talk to her while she watched TV. That has alway irritated me. i don't like bein ignored.

Overall, my childhood was not dramatic.. the parents argued occassionally. We went on vacations, etc. 

My dad drank beer evernight.. as do I. 

I guess I am catagorized as a functioning alcoholic.. 

Nothing really out of the ordinary. But I do believe I have abandonment issues, along with my need to fix.

Ever since I was young I always tried to go to the aid of others.


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## N8vee (Nov 4, 2012)

My dad drank.
I drank as an adult, lots of nights.
I stopped cold turkey when my wife told me it was over.
It was probably the best thing for me then, and now...I know it would be harder to process and grieve if I was masking my feelings with alcohol.
Maybe give it a shot?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Well, the FIRST thing you need to do is stop drinking. Today. You will NEVER find happiness until you get rid of the crutch.


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## Tony55 (Jun 8, 2012)

Ostera said:


> Ever since I was young I always tried to go to the aid of others.


And she knows this, that's why she called you at 3:30am. Like I said, you're her bandage.

*Turnera is right, stop drinking.*

You said, _"I am confused and paralyzed sort of.. i'm just in a daze."_ Yeah, booze will straighten that out for ya.

T


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## Twofaces (Dec 5, 2011)

Im sensing dispatagement with this post.......

The truth is, almost all children of alcoholics seek out the excitement amd turmoil of a toxic relationship without knowing they are doing it. 

People dont just wake up one mpening all fvcked up for no reason.....






turnera said:


> Ok, we'll be your armchair therapists, then.
> 
> Tell us about your childhood.


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## Twofaces (Dec 5, 2011)

Ostera said:


> my upbbringing was normal...my father died when I was 19.. my mother and i don't really have a good relationship since I became an adult..
> 
> I think I have abandonment issues as well... I 'need' to be wanted...





I will armchair diagnose this. It IS the abandonment issue. 

No fee. First visit free


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Twofaces said:


> Im sensing dispatagement with this post.......


That wasn't disparagement at all! I was serious. He needs help but hasn't gotten to a real IC yet, so he needs to start looking into his life patterns.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

Twofaces said:


> Perhaps you are addicted to the drama??? You get a dopamine hogh from it all Were you raised bu alcoholic parents? A lot of drama in your childhood home? We tend to seek out that which we are most familiar with, good or bad.......


I think you may be right about addicted to the drama. The highs are SO HIGH and INTENSE. It the crushing lows that really send my into a tail spin.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

vi_bride04 said:


> All's I have to say, is if you decide to give this girl another shot (yes, she is a girl, not a woman) you are going to be in for years and years of more heartache.
> 
> Good luck with whatever you decide.


I know she lacks maturity in many ways. Her entire family is disfunctional on a monumental level.

Her Grandmother killed one of her husbands. Onother grandparent committed suicide. 

My MIL has huge BPD/NPD traits/issues, as does my wife and my stepdaughter.

My wife knows she has huge emotional issues. She tells me she doesn't know how to resolve them. I told her she never stays in therapy long enough. I told her 52 years of drama in her life can't be solved in 6 months of therapy... 

She is so lost.. and it's just a mess.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

If you loved yourself, you wouldn't need drama to feel alive. You'd be ok as is.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You ARE leaving her alone, right?


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

Yesterday my wife called and was crying because I had told her I was seeing someone... she asked me if I wanted to met with her last night after work... of course I did because I am sooo in love with her. 

We talked for about 3 hours. We had a better talk than when we went to counseling. I told her about this site and the things I have learned like rug sweeping, blame shifting, etc.

She told me she doesn't want a divorce. She is hugely jealous that I am seeing someone. She says she has dated 2 guys in the last 3 months but she said all they want to do is get into her pants (of course they do, my wife is very pretty). She said she can't connect with anyone because I am her 'baseline' and no other guys seem to be able to match that.

I told her I thought she was using me as plan 'B' and she said I was being rediculous.

We talked about how /why things spun out of control and the issue I have with her adult children.

We live on opposite sides of town and she said she wanted to work out our marriage. I told her I didn't want to live with her and that marriage counseling would be a must. She agreed.

She also had me listen to a voice male from a guy she went out with 2 times.... what a pig, this guy was vulgar and talked about all the nasty things he wanted to do to her... the way he talked I could tell that she hadn't been sexaul with him yet.

She said she thought he was nice, but she is grossed out about he left the voice mail... I will say this about my wife... with all her issues, she doesn't appreciate being talked to in that manner and I know this.

She said she wishes she could replace me, but she said nobody can compare to me...

I know I am probably making a mistake, but I have to try... I could tell last night she is in love with me still, but her baggage needs to addressed.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Omfg.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Will you AT LEAST require that she have attended one IC session before every time that you see her? WTH?!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ostera said:


> I know she lacks maturity in many ways.


She doesn't lack maturity, Ostera.

She is mentally ill.

YOU CAN'T FIX HER.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

turnera said:


> *OMFG!*


Fixed.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

turnera said:


> Omfg.


What can I say... she admitted that she is jealous that I have moved on.

I asked her if the reason she wants me back is that she felt she was going to lose me forever and she said yes.

I know she is a train wreck,,,so am I right now.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

Do you know why you are a train wreck?? B/c you keep engaging with her. You are even starting drama with her by telling her you are seeing someone. And instead of just letting it go and continue NC, you answer her phone calls and talk to her for hours.

What do you fricken want out of this relationship with her and what are you going to do to start fixing yourself?


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

turnera said:


> Will you AT LEAST require that she have attended one IC session before every time that you see her? WTH?!


I told her I would be willing to work on us but that she must go to counseling and that we needed to also go to MC.

I told her we need to be apart for this year and could not live together.. she doesn't need my money and on Thursday she is going for another promotion at her job. she makes very good money already so she isn't dependant at all on me for this.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

vi_bride04 said:


> Do you know why you are a train wreck?? B/c you keep engaging with her. You are even starting drama with her by telling her you are seeing someone. And instead of just letting it go and continue NC, you answer her phone calls and talk to her for hours.
> 
> What do you fricken want out of this relationship with her and what are you going to do to start fixing yourself?


I am starting IC next week... I want to be with her. I know she has emotional issues. She does have mental issues especially with commitments. She is scared and she is lost emotionally.

She hates the fact that all the guys she tries to date want one thing from her (sex). She isn't like that. She needs an emotional connection. She can't do ONS. 

If she were to do that it would be with someone she had already had a relationship in the past.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ostera said:


> I told her I would be willing to work on us but that she must go to counseling and that we needed to also go to MC.


Maybe you just left it out previously, but what you said was this:


> I told her I didn't want to live with her and that marriage counseling would be a must. She agreed.


No mention of IC. 

I hope you stick to that requirement, but this forum is FULL of Nice Guys who 'say' that but back down the instant they're back in swing and the wife gives him hell for 'having' to go to IC.

Just sayin'.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What's the issue with her adult children?


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

turnera said:


> What's the issue with her adult children?


Her 32 yr old daughter is a wild child.. she dates guys that are 10 yrs younger and can't have a stable relationship (just like mom). Daughter has an 11 yr old son who she basically abandoned when he was 1 because she wanted to party instead of being a mother.

Her 30 yr old son is a drunk who can't hold down a job. Both of them leach off mom because she make awesome money. 

the entire family is disfunctional... and I'm right in the middle of it.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

turnera said:


> Maybe you just left it out previously, but what you said was this:
> No mention of IC.
> 
> I hope you stick to that requirement, but this forum is FULL of Nice Guys who 'say' that but back down the instant they're back in swing and the wife gives him hell for 'having' to go to IC.
> ...


We did talk about her going to IC and maybe doing the rapid eye therapy. My wife is willing to go to counseling... her issue is she doesn't really understand how to get past her issues and resolve them.. we talked extensively about that last night... she doesn't like her demons but can't seem to get past them. 

She is not a bad person intentionally... she just has so much baggage it overwhelms her.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

> and I'm right in the middle of it.


NO, you are not.

At least you weren't until you TOOK HER BACK.

YOU held the power a mere day ago. YOU could have set conditions - none of your children allowed at my house, etc. But no, you just went weak at the knees as soon as she wriggled her finger. And now you're back to being her pool boy.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

If you REALLY want to STRAIGHTEN you life up, then you will: 
LISTEN to the good advice people here give you
You will listen to you counselor in IC
You will STOP making excuses for your W and her sh1tty behavior; her childhood sucked....yeah, her and about 20 million OTHER PEOPLE! How long are you and she going to milk THAT situation? forever?



> When I first met her it was the classic 'Love at first sight' thing. I never felt that with me previous wife, nor with anyone else.


You married ABOVE yourself looks-wise and that's what you fell for. You couldn't believe a chick THAT HOT wanted to be with you. THAT ain't 'love'.

She DISAPPEARED for 3 months. If you think she wasn't screwing anyone during those 3 months, you're DELUSIONAL! She ran away to SOMEBODY! She left you for SOME OTHER DUDE. Maybe she didn't sleep with the 2 guys she told you about...there was at least ONE MORE she WAS SLEEPING WITH that she DIDN'T TELL YOU ABOUT.



> she is embarrassed by what she does...
> But obviously not too embarrassed to knock it off.





> She said she can't connect with anyone because I am her 'baseline' and no other guys seem to be able to match that.


No-one else is willing to take her sh1t except YOU. Especially at HER AGE, men are not lining up to deal with her problems! You're NOT her 'baseline', you're her BACK-UP plan. You KNOW it, you confronted her with it. 



> I asked her if the reason she wants me back is that she felt she was going to lose me forever and she said yes.


 And then WHO would take her cr*p when these men get TIRED of her and kick her out....or she gets tired of being treated like a piece of azz and leaves. Where/who is she going to go crawling back to?



> I 'need' to be wanted...





> re: your mother - it would be nice to be able to have her listen with some compassion.





> I just hate the fact that is my 3rd marriage and it's failing. My codependance gets me everytime.


You're not supid, you HAVE figured it out...you just don't know WHAT TO DO with it. You've got ALL the pieces, you just don't know how to put the puzzle together!

You don't LOVE HER, *you love HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT YOURSELF when you're with her*! BIG DIFFERENCE!

Look what a nice guy I am.
Look how forgiving I am.
I can turn the other cheek.
I'm compassionate.
I'm a good listener.
I'm understanding
I'm the kind of adult I WISH MY OWN MOTHER WAS (but isn't)!
...is this ringin' a bell with you???? are you SEEING why you're acting like you do? You're trying to GIVE what you wish you could RECEIVE from others (mother, wife, etc.)

If you KNOW your co-dependence is the PROBLEM (and you DO), then HOW is staying with HER going to make your life better. Your problem is with YOU! It's not with HER. Just like it wasn't with ex-w#1 or ex-w#2. It's with YOU, so FIX YOU.

End it with her and CLEAN UP YOUR OWN LIFE, or live like THIS forever! Your choice, and ONLY YOUR choice.


^


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ostera said:


> We did talk about her going to IC and maybe doing the rapid eye therapy. My wife is willing to go to counseling... her issue is she doesn't really understand how to get past her issues and resolve them..


Didn't you just say she won't stick with a therapist more than 6 months?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> You don't LOVE HER, *you love HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT YOURSELF when you're with her*! BIG DIFFERENCE!


Yep. 

You may need more therapy than she does.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

What SGW says is harsh, but true. Please re-read the post about 100 times.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Absolutely true, vi, SGW, and turnera. There wasn't much healthy about what you told us about your childhood, Ostera. It set you up for exactly what has been happening in your marriages. You have to deal with all of those things: being raised by a functional alcoholic, being emotionally abused by both parents, what I and probably many people would consider physical abuse rather than corporal punishment, etc.

Never mind what happens with her. Detach, totally, and get yourself into intensive IC. Deal with your childhood, and why you choose the women you do. Don't do it with the idea of getting back with her. Leave her completely out of it. Stop drinking, and find a ACOA group. Find one for co-dependents, too, if you can, because you are a classic case.

If she is truly NPB/BPD (and she sure sounds like it), she will not change until she actually faces her deep problems (which she hasn't) and jumps into intensive counseling with both feet (which she's already shown she won't).

Check these links out, too:

Do you love to be needed, or need to be loved?

There must be a pony in here, somewhere

Quite a few articles on this site about living with someone with BPD/NPD. You might find yourself described in them.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

turnera said:


> NO, you are not.
> 
> At least you weren't until you TOOK HER BACK.
> 
> YOU held the power a mere day ago. YOU could have set conditions - none of your children allowed at my house, etc. But no, you just went weak at the knees as soon as she wriggled her finger. And now you're back to being her pool boy.


I did the 'no kids at the house thing'. That became a huge problem since blood is thicker than water. Of course a mother isn't going to go for that.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

turnera said:


> Didn't you just say she won't stick with a therapist more than 6 months?


She quits going because she doesn't think she is making anymore progress.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Not unusual for someone with a PD. They want fixes without having to make major changes, and certainly without facing what's really at the root of the PD in the first place. That's why treatment success rates for PDs are not terribly high. It takes a lot of commitment.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

{You married ABOVE yourself looks-wise and that's what you fell for. You couldn't believe a chick THAT HOT wanted to be with you. THAT ain't 'love'.

She DISAPPEARED for 3 months. If you think she wasn't screwing anyone during those 3 months, you're DELUSIONAL! She ran away to SOMEBODY! She left you for SOME OTHER DUDE. Maybe she didn't sleep with the 2 guys she told you about...there was at least ONE MORE she WAS SLEEPING WITH that she DIDN'T TELL YOU ABOUT.}



I understand what you are saying... however, there are two elements that are not correct. My wife doesn't do the ONS bar scenes.. She is more likely to have sex with someone she's had sex with in the past. Don't get me wrong, she has cheated on me with her XH. But she hasn't just gone out and 'found' any old body... she's too scared to do that. 

I have always had attractive women...so the HOT part is really not the issue for me marrying above myself.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

I love how you give all sorts of explanations and excuses for her, but never really explain your reasoning's or feelings. 

You are focused way too much on her. No wonder you are the mess you are.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

angelpixie said:


> Not unusual for someone with a PD. They want fixes without having to make major changes, and certainly without facing what's really at the root of the PD in the first place. That's why treatment success rates for PDs are not terribly high. It takes a lot of commitment.


True this.

She wants a 'quick' fix and I try to tell her it doesn't work like that.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

vi_bride04 said:


> I love how you give all sorts of explanations and excuses for her, but never really explain your reasoning's or feelings.
> 
> You are focused way too much on her. No wonder you are the mess you are.


I am not really trying to give excuses. If I am coming off like that I apologize.. it's just what she tells me.

last time we went to counseling it started to stagnate in the sessions.. I even told the therapist I thought we weren't making any progress after a while. 

last night I did tell her we needed to fix ourselves before we could make any good progress on us.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

True that -- and you need to work on you. Without thinking about her. I can't emphasize that enough. 

I think you are afraid that if you do intensive therapy, you won't feel the same about her, and you really don't want your situation to change that badly yet. The devil you know is better than the devil you don't.


That's why things stagnate. It's not just her, it's you.

Right now, you two are a matched set; puzzle pieces that fit together because of your issues. If she gets healthy, but you don't it still won't work. If you get healthy and she doesn't, it still won't work. If you both get healthy, there's at least a chance.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

What do YOU want, Ostera? What is your goal for your relationship with your WS?


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Ostera-I read the first few pages and skipped to here. You know what will happen if you go back. How long would that feeling last if she came back in comparison to the fear of 'when will she do this again'. She is attractive.....so? You can't fix her and do you really think she wants to fix herself. If....if......you think she can then turtle pace it and let her do the work. If it is a facade, it will be revealed soon. As for the one you are seeing....you never know....may be a spark at one point. But at least with her you don't have to worry about all the issues. You are better off alone than with her. At 52, once a train wreck always a train wreck 99% of the time. Do not be the knight in shining armor. You were before and look what it got you. Best of luck.

Also.....the one you're seeing now, the feeling isn't there. Reason why......you're still holding out hope for the 52 y/o. Try to cut her off and cut ties. That just may be the one reason you have not really gotten that feeling with the new girl.


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## Twofaces (Dec 5, 2011)

Holy Hell


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## caladan (Nov 2, 2012)

Twofaces said:


> Holy Hell


Thank you.

I have no words.

The OP reminds me of those "****" guys who take pleasure in watching their wives being shagged by some other guy.


I'm sorry bro, different strokes for different folks and all that. I'm just totally unable to get to the level where I can give you any relevant advice, apart from:

Why not simply get a one-way open relationship with her, that way she can sleep around, and come back to you. She's more likely to stay with you if you permit that.

You're certainly not getting a mainstream relationship from here


- One more thing, you said you can't afford a divorce, and she has "all the money" which is why her kids keep coming back. Tell us - does she "assist" with your bills? Is that the real issue here - you're broke and you need her to help out?


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## Twofaces (Dec 5, 2011)

Ok, cool. My bad, as they say. Glad you deciphered that writing of mine cause i laughed when i saw it. 






turnera said:


> That wasn't disparagement at all! I was serious. He needs help but hasn't gotten to a real IC yet, so he needs to start looking into his life patterns.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

caladan said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I have no words.
> 
> ...



She doesn't assist with my bills because her kids sponge her money and she feels sorry for them.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

> Don't get me wrong, she has cheated on me with her XH.


So are we in agreement that she WASN'T screwing the two new guys, but it's possible she was involved with her XH again? Or another ex-bf?

Does that somehow make it better?

Sorry if you, too, think I'm too 'harsh'. I call 'em like I see 'em. As per your original post, I would hate to see you sucked back into a relationship that you KNOW is not healthy for you. Thus my adamance that you need to man-up here and get healthy. 

But as I stated earlier, it is YOUR decision, not mine, not hers, not anybody else's...just yours!


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> So are we in agreement that she WASN'T screwing the two new guys, but it's possible she was involved with her XH again? Or another ex-bf?
> 
> Does that somehow make it better?
> 
> ...


She could have done her X again but I don't think so. He's pretty PO'd at her because she won't go back with him.

She's pretty picky with guys... the reason she got with me is that I had known her for a few years before we started dating.

She is too afraid of the weirdos out there to go out and pick someone up at the bar. 

We went to lunch today and she agreed to start IC again. We both agreed that we need to fix ourselves before we can really work on anything together.

I know she is willing to go to counseling.. I just need her to understand it can't be fixed in just a few months.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

It's not even a 'man-up' thing, SGW. I'd give the same advice if the genders were reversed in this situation. It's about developing enough love and respect of self that he'll do whatever it takes to GET HEALTHY, not whatever it takes to stay with her. It doesn't matter if it's a man or a woman in his situation. S/he would need to figure out why they want to stay in this toxic situation -- what is it about them that prefers being treated like crap to getting out of that type of relationship.

He's not sick enough of this, yet.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You two should sign an agreement that you WILL NOT MOVE IN TOGETHER until at least next January.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

I'm TOTALLY with you, AngelPixie!

I use 'man-up' for men.
I use 'woman-up' for women.

They both need to grab ahold of themselves and straighten their own selves up before they attempt to straighten out this relationship!


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

turnera said:


> You two should sign an agreement that you WILL NOT MOVE IN TOGETHER until at least next January.


No need for that. Where I live is too far away for her to drive to her job... she won't use the freeway (another of her hangups).

I am pretty clear on this... I also know that I am taking a gamble. I also know that IC may put me in a place to where I don't want this.... 

If she can really (and i mean really) take her IC seriously there is a good chance... I understand the 'There must be a Pony in there somewhere' theory.

And I agree, I haven't had enough or hit bottom so to speak to walk yet.

I know everyone is shaking their heads.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ok, then, make it an agreement that you won't get back together if she doesn't continue IC for a full year, and you won't discuss reconciliation until then. For someone like her, you have to give her a concrete agreement or goal, or she will backslide. If you have it in writing, she can't get around it.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

vi_bride04 said:


> What do YOU want, Ostera? What is your goal for your relationship with your WS?


One of our issues is the alcohol.. I drink too much.. she didn't when i met her but started drinking more when we got together. She mentally can't handle that and I basically ignored her when she asked me to cut back.

Most of our fallouts are from this... I still drink but I drink less than half of what I use to.

She only has a couple beers on the weekends... that was her norm anyway. 

What I want to to fix me, she work on fixing her and then we attempt to move forward.

I am not perfect. But I very much need to fix my issues. I was as much a part of this disaster as her.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> I'm TOTALLY with you, AngelPixie!
> 
> I use 'man-up' for men.
> I use 'woman-up' for women.
> ...


Very much agreed...


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

turnera said:


> Ok, then, make it an agreement that you won't get back together if she doesn't continue IC for a full year, and you won't discuss reconciliation until then. For someone like her, you have to give her a concrete agreement or goal, or she will backslide. If you have it in writing, she can't get around it.


that is a good idea.. At this point all we are doing is talking. We are discussing ground rules and both agree this is going to be a long process.

Her actions will show me how 'committed' she is to this relationship.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Well, you KNOW that her sticking with an IC for more than 6 months is a problem. And you know nothing will get fixed in less than a year, for someone as messed up as she is. So this way you both are aware of the NEED for the full year of therapy and it gives her a goal, if she really wants you.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Ost-I have a wild notion that SHE was the catalyst for your drinking escalation. Why did you start drinking more when you got married? Did you drink more when she curtailed affection? And when the M blew up....did you drink more? Last question......since you started getting her out of your system to a degree....did your drinking decrease? I'm not a doctor but I don't think your true root problem was alcohol.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

Chuck71 said:


> Ost-I have a wild notion that SHE was the catalyst for your drinking escalation. Why did you start drinking more when you got married? Did you drink more when she curtailed affection? And when the M blew up....did you drink more? Last question......since you started getting her out of your system to a degree....did your drinking decrease? I'm not a doctor but I don't think your true root problem was alcohol.


When we first got together we were fine... little things started happening with her older kids (she has 4 altogether ages 18, 20 30 and 32) losing their jobs, living with us, etc. I don't have kids and it was hard for me to 'know' how to deal with their irresponsibility.


Her xh of the two younger ones started not letting them see her younger kids and was violating the custody agreement. He was doing this because she was with me... so that caused tension.

Then we argued about her thinking I was still in love with my xw because I still had some things and letters in a drawer I had forgotten about.. this is when she EA and PA the xh between me and the father of the youger ones. 

After that it just got worse for me.. I rug swept.. drank more due to the pain, etc.

There is a lot of issues we just never really dealt with.. she became withdrawn,,, I crawled deeper in the bottle,., she became more withdrawn and the cycle continued to decline. 

When we don't drink, we seem to handle things better (duh).

There is a lot of other stuff but I don't want to make this too long.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

turnera said:


> Well, you KNOW that her sticking with an IC for more than 6 months is a problem. And you know nothing will get fixed in less than a year, for someone as messed up as she is. So this way you both are aware of the NEED for the full year of therapy and it gives her a goal, if she really wants you.


I do know this... but I never pressed her in the past... when we talked today she said, " I don't know if I can fix this." I told her if she didn't attempt it seriously how will you ever know.

She has stated many times she doesn't want to be alone.. however, she knows she isn't very successful sustaining a relationship. 

Also, when things were bad we both said some very bad things to each other.. I take responsibility for not handling that correctly... I did get very verbally abusive on a few occassions and her personality is to fragile to handle it...


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Ost-Did she have an EA and PA because you didn't take the trash out, or if the bookshelf was not straightened. Or because you kept a good luck next year note from your 3rd grade teacher. She had the implied intent to step out on you and just needed a reason. And her kids poor mouth her for $.....maybe they drained her and she needs a host to refill her coffers. Any $ you give her, might as well be handing it over to them.


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## Tony55 (Jun 8, 2012)

Ostera said:


> She hates the fact that all the guys she tries to date want one thing from her (sex).


No she doesn't, she loves the fact that they want sex with her, that's why she saved the voice-mail and that's why she played it for you. She loves that they want her, and she loves that it affects you; she's validated.

T


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

Tony55 said:


> No she doesn't, she loves the fact that they want sex with her, that's why she saved the voice-mail and that's why she played it for you. She loves that they want her, and she loves that it affects you; she's validated.
> 
> T


Your are half correct.. she wants the attention and of course if the guy had not been crud she would have pursued something with him.. She had only known him 2 days and he was already leaving crud stuff on her phone..

She isn't the type to sleep with someone she just met... I already mentioned that.. if he had played his cards right he would maybe had a chance.

I know how she is.. she needs the atttention.. I didn't give it to her. She went to her x to get what i wasn't giving.. We covered that pretty extensively in MC


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ostera said:


> I know how she is.. she needs the atttention.. I didn't give it to her.


Huh? You just agreed to get back together! How much more attention can she get?


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

As per what Tony said...................when sex really is the only thing she has to attract a guy.....and if the guys she attracts require only a heartbeat.......yeah....you get sex....it's pitiful she has to justify her womanhood by running through dugouts full of guys.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

turnera said:


> Huh? You just agreed to get back together! How much more attention can she get?


What I am referrin to happened a while back..not recently... we just kept spiraling out of control and that is when she left.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

I would like to address the poster who said I am not in love with HER. But I am in love with how she makes me feel. 

I am confused on this.. wouldn't it be normal to like how someone makes you feel?

Is it abnormal to want to be needed?


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Any true form of happiness lies from within you.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

Chuck71 said:


> Any true form of happiness lies from within you.


I understand this part.. Aren't we social creatures though? How would anyone feel if they knew noboby wanted them? 

I am just posing the question.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

I'm not the poster you are seeking on that one statement. But in math terms, everything has a beginning and an end. You have to make yourself the beginning. It's similar to people sitting in the victim chair......they can tell themselves a lie long enough, they will start to believe it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ostera said:


> I would like to address the poster who said I am not in love with HER. But I am in love with how she makes me feel. I am confused on this.. wouldn't it be normal to like how someone makes you feel? Is it abnormal to want to be needed?


It's normal if you can LEAVE THEM ALONE and still be ok. If you can't leave them alone, if you obsess about them, if you jump at the chance to get back together, then liking how they make you feel isn't real. It's a psychological crutch to get you past not loving yourself enough to believe you are ok without her. 

And we all want to be needed, it's basic psychology. But when you're willing to shed your self respect and dignity, when you're willing to give up what YOU need in a relationship (what a regular person would need) just so she'll 'choose you,' then it's abnormal.


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## Tony55 (Jun 8, 2012)

Ostera said:


> She had only known him 2 days and he was already leaving crud stuff on her phone..


We obviously don't know how crude the voice mail was, but let's assume it was really obscene, or deviant, or flat out creepy, why would she keep it? Why not delete it? Did she already know that she was going to play it for you? And if so, why?

Think about that.

T


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

Tony55 said:


> We obviously don't know how crude the voice mail was, but let's assume it was really obscene, or deviant, or flat out creepy, why would she keep it? Why not delete it? Did she already know that she was going to play it for you? And if so, why?
> 
> Think about that.
> 
> T


Okay back to when I mentioned she called me Sunday at 3:30 in the morning. Later that morning her phone rang and it was this guy she had met 2 days ago... she didn't answer and then he left the voice mail.. it was very vulgar, obscene and creepy about what he wanted to do to her VJ, etc. 

Like I said before, I could tell by the way he was using his words he had not done anything with my wife. 

My wife isn't crude like that and it scared her. She barely knows the guy (2 days). My wife has really never been in the dating scene since she was 24 (she's 52). Most of the people she has been with are connected in some fashion with the exception of me. We happened to become friends because we belonged to the same veteran organisation. 

She freaked out about the VM, and yes I believe she saved it for me to hear so I would believe her when she told me the story.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

Also I should point out there are so many intricacies that it's hard to type them all with clarity so others can understand.

My wife doesn't possess very good cooping skills. When she was young her mom used to be jealous of her because of all the attention her father gave her. Her mom use to call her fat and put her on a diet when she was 8. I have witnessed first hand her mother say things to her that are obvously cruel, so I believe the stories I have been told from her youth.

She was present when her mother stabbed her father. 

Additionally when she was a single mother at 27 she was working a second job at night as a bartender. One of the patrons that she knew came into the bar and shot her, the bar manager and another customer. It took her 6 months to recover due to having part of her stomach and a few feet of her colon removed. This is why my wife has issues trusting people. This is why I am trying to convey that she doesn't go out and bang strangers.... 

Due to my wifes lack of self esteem (from the childhood drama) she is very fragile and does not take criticism well.

Additionally, due to the cooping skills issue she doesn't handle situational stresses weil. This is why when we have intense arguments she thinks I might harm her ( I have never touched her violently) and she 'runs away'. Usually to her xh or her daughter's house. 

I have seen her start to panic when we have been out to a bar and people are getting loud. Not loud in an angry sense, loud due to the amount of people there, the music,etc. It's pretty obvious she has PTSD on top of all the other issues.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

She. Needs. IC. 

It's NEVER going to get better without it.

Coping skills can be learned. PTSD can be treated. She has to want it, and you have to stop enabling her poor coping skills. It's not being sympathetic to her or her past by letting this just go on.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Did she run out of money and people who enable her?


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

Why do you want a relationship with this hot mess of a woman when its just going to end badly? 

She needs help and lots of it. You cannot fix her. You cannot help her. Only she can help herself. And sometimes people only get help for themselves when they hit rock bottom and there is no one there to bail them out. Sometimes not even then.

If you want her to get help, step away and leave her alone.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

angelpixie said:


> She. Needs. IC.
> 
> It's NEVER going to get better without it.
> 
> Coping skills can be learned. PTSD can be treated. She has to want it, and you have to stop enabling her poor coping skills. It's not being sympathetic to her or her past by letting this just go on.


Very much agreed... we discussed this again last night. She is willing to go.. she said she is tired of being the way she is and doesn't want to live like this the rest of her life.. she is aware that if she continues she will end up alone and she isn't someone who wants that.. 

In the last 3 years she has actually improved in some areas, believe it or not.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> Did she run out of money and people who enable her?


She makes 80 grand a year... she doesn't need anybodies money. She needs help with the multitude of issues that haven't been addressed in 40+ years. 

She never challenges her mother when she is being mean. When my MIL says something [email protected] to me, I put her in check. But this bothers the wife since it's her mom. I have told her to quit putting up with it, but she won't do anything.

My MIL is 77, has severe arthritis, makes up stories to make the ansestors look good. Top top it off she thinks she's the bomb and is very condicending to the older men were she lives.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

vi_bride04 said:


> Why do you want a relationship with this hot mess of a woman when its just going to end badly?
> 
> She needs help and lots of it. You cannot fix her. You cannot help her. Only she can help herself. And sometimes people only get help for themselves when they hit rock bottom and there is no one there to bail them out. Sometimes not even then.
> 
> If you want her to get help, step away and leave her alone.


She is willing to get help. We agreed again last night that we will seek IC prior to trying to work on the marriage. I have agreed to cut my drinking to a minimum. That seems to be her biggest issue with me.. and I smoke and she is afraid that I will die younger than I should and that scares her.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

vi_bride04 said:


> Why do you want a relationship with this hot mess of a woman when its just going to end badly?


The reason I want to be with her is she can actually have very interesting conversations. I enjoy her company, etc. 

It's not like she's a raging lunatic 24/7. 

She is very intelligent. She does self reflect, but she doesn't possess the 'tool' to know what to do next with what she understands.. hence the IC


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Ostera said:


> Very much agreed... we discussed this again last night. She is willing to go.. she said she is tired of being the way she is and doesn't want to live like this the rest of her life.. *she is aware that if she continues she will end up alone and she isn't someone who wants that.. *
> 
> In the last 3 years she has actually improved in some areas, believe it or not.


It would be better if she didn't want to change because she's afraid of being alone, or of being abandoned. Hopefully, this is a foot in the door to getting her into IC, but a really good sign that she _gets it_ will be when she wants the IC so that she can be healthy and love herself *regardless of whether she's with someone or not.* 

Same thing with you, for that matter.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

And, Ostera -- I'm willing to bet you can find a woman with whom you can enjoy her company and conversations --- without the mess.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

angelpixie said:


> It would be better if she didn't want to change because she's afraid of being alone, or of being abandoned. Hopefully, this is a foot in the door to getting her into IC, but a really good sign that she _gets it_ will be when she wants the IC so that she can be healthy and love herself *regardless of whether she's with someone or not.*
> 
> Same thing with you, for that matter.


Agreed, In the past she has made statements like she feels like a failure (Not her career, her personal life). She also has made statements that she doesn't like herself. So at least she 'sees' it.. now she needs to act on it.

She said she had been depressed since she left 3 months ago. I believe this. She hadn't been going out unless it was with her adult kids.

Then she said she 'attempted' to start dating and she is picky,, she said she kept trying to find someone like me. She is wierd that way. I know she loves me the best way she nows how. Her upbringing was very disfunctional and her family isn't very affectionate to each other... it almost a tradition.

My family is very affectionate so we have tried working on that over the past few years.. She has a lot of walls I have to break down when we first met.

Everone keeps mentioning here how my wife is some wild animal out there banging every guy in sight.. I know this not to be true.

Once she was single and we started talking extensively it was 3 months before we went to bed.

Like I mentioned a little while ago, my wife doesn't trust too many people.

She told me also that she tried to be friends with ther last x again but he keep pushing her to come back. She has known him since she was 14 and he lived down the street and he was 18. 

She told me if she really loved him she would be with him,, and I know that is true.. she was naive enough to think that they could be friends like they were prior to getting married.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

angelpixie said:


> And, Ostera -- I'm willing to bet you can find a woman with whom you can enjoy her company and conversations --- without the mess.


i probably could.. but from what I have seen most people my age have the baggage... like I tkink you wrote yesterday, I am kind of at the stage of 'better the devil you know.'


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## caladan (Nov 2, 2012)

Ostera said:


> I know she loves me the best way she nows how.


See, let's assume you're right. She loves you the best way she knows how, and that is to leave from time to time and hook up with other men. Tell me, is this enough for you?

The fact is, nobody really knows what's going to happen next. She may come around and you'll end up with a great relationship. She may leave in a few months, and then come back with the same story. She may meet your "brother from another mother" who is just like you, but just happens to have a little more self confidence, in which case you're toast. We don't know.

I do however believe you need to sort your S H I T out. The fact that we're having this conversation, and you're constantly trying to view her flaws through rose tinted glasses seems to indicate some neediness in you. Heck, you pretty much said she was above your level, brother that's loser speak.

Sort yourself out. Make yourself a winner. Then and only then can you get to a place where you can make a logical decision.

From experience I can tell you this - Needy people are extremely tiring and co-dependent, wearing down their partners with their constant need for validation.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

caladan said:


> See, let's assume you're right. She loves you the best way she knows how, and that is to leave from time to time and hook up with other men. Tell me, is this enough for you?
> 
> The fact is, nobody really knows what's going to happen next. She may come around and you'll end up with a great relationship. She may leave in a few months, and then come back with the same story. She may meet your "brother from another mother" who is just like you, but just happens to have a little more self confidence, in which case you're toast. We don't know.
> 
> ...



Actually someone else stated that I married above myself. If that is because of the income difference there is a reason for that. My wife and I made the approx the same when we met. However, she has had two very lucrative promotions in the last couple years.. meanwhile, I took a pay cut when the economy went bad and haven't gotten anything back. I stay where I am because the benefits can't be beat.

I no of my codependant issue and will address this in IC. I used to be very self confident... however, that got beat up over the last couple years because it was a gradual thing and I didn't see it.


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## caladan (Nov 2, 2012)

Ostera said:


> Actually someone else stated that I married above myself. If that is because of the income difference there is a reason for that. My wife and I made the approx the same when we met. However, she has had two very lucrative promotions in the last couple years.. meanwhile, I took a pay cut when the economy went bad and haven't gotten anything back. I stay where I am because the benefits can't be beat.
> 
> I no of my codependant issue and will address this in IC. I used to be very self confident... however, that got beat up over the last couple years because it was a gradual thing and I didn't see it.


You sound like a really great guy, loyal and straightforward. Please be aware that we don't hate your wife, we just really, really feel that you deserve sooo much better. 

Either way, at this point I'm going to concede here. I think you really, really like her. As cynical as I am about the storytale mindset of love always winning out, I'm still something of a romantic. If you really love her, go for it. The rewards far outweigh the losses. Just please, be aware of the risks and concerns, go in with your eyes wide open.

I truly wish you the best of luck here brother.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

caladan said:


> You sound like a really great guy, loyal and straightforward. Please be aware that we don't hate your wife, we just really, really feel that you deserve sooo much better.
> 
> Either way, at this point I'm going to concede here. I think you really, really like her. As cynical as I am about the storytale mindset of love always winning out, I'm still something of a romantic. If you really love her, go for it. The rewards far outweigh the losses. Just please, be aware of the risks and concerns, go in with your eyes wide open.
> 
> I truly wish you the best of luck here brother.


I appreciate it.. I know it's a crap shoot. She knows she needs to quit running. I know I need to quit putting her down when we argue because she can't handle that. She told me she has been put down her whole life by her mom and that is very believable since I have witnesses her mom say cruel things many times.

Actually, I have talked to my MIL twice over the past 2 years about my wife... both times she said the same thing, "Leave her, she's no good." 

What kind of mother would say that? I do believe my MIL is jealous of my wifes success and looks.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

It takes two to argue.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

vi_bride04 said:


> If you want her to get help, step away and leave her alone.


 I can't like this statement enough. If you want to keep seeing her, do so. BUT make sure it's not more than once a month, twice, tops. Why? Because when she is getting the 'crutch' of you liking her on a more frequent basis, she will (1) let THAT feel-good convince her that it's enough, and she'll slack off of the IC and (2) not pay attention to the real work she needs to do from her IC, and she'll slack off of the IC. 

She needs LOTS AND LOTS of time alone. Even if she knows you're still in the background, seeing her once a month.


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## Tony55 (Jun 8, 2012)

Ostera said:


> I am so in love with her I can't see straight...


Let me ask you this; considering the above statement, made in your first post, what was your reaction to the voice mail when she played it for you? Also, did that guy leave any other voice mails after that?

I'd like to know how you handled this _"very vulgar, obscene and creepy"_ voice mail sent to *the woman you love so much you can't see straight.*

T


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

turnera said:


> I can't like this statement enough. If you want to keep seeing her, do so. BUT make sure it's not more than once a month, twice, tops. Why? Because when she is getting the 'crutch' of you liking her on a more frequent basis, she will (1) let THAT feel-good convince her that it's enough, and she'll slack off of the IC and (2) not pay attention to the real work she needs to do from her IC, and she'll slack off of the IC.
> 
> She needs LOTS AND LOTS of time alone. Even if she knows you're still in the background, seeing her once a month.


This is good advice.. plus we live far enought apart it's a hassle to see her. She now lives within walking distance of her job. So she gave her car to her oldest son so he can get to work. (He is staying with her again).


For me to see her I would have to drive from my job in the opposite direction to where I work.. big hassle for me. So physical contact will be limited.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

Tony55 said:


> Let me ask you this; considering the above statement, made in your first post, what was your reaction to the voice mail when she played it for you? Also, did that guy leave any other voice mails after that?
> 
> I'd like to know how you handled this _"very vulgar, obscene and creepy"_ voice mail sent to *the woman you love so much you can't see straight.*
> 
> T


A little background.. we are AM Legion members.. so she assumed that the Legion by were she lives would be safe.. she met this guy and he asked her out. She said sure, but that she was still married and would like to go out as friends.( of course if he would have played it cool she could very well have gotten physical eventually. She's not a, "Hi, want to go to bed?" type of person).

They went out twice and then the voicemail.. I asked her if she had even kissed him and she said no.


Tony, i know you don't believe any of this but she not slVtty like that. Give time she would have slept with him probably. She said she just wanted to try to make a friend. 

As I've said she has no friends.. and besides me and her XH she only has her kids... who usually are off doing their own thing.

Anyway she said other people at the legion vouched for him as being a good person.. I reminded her that just because someone acted acceptable at a Legion (members only if you aren't familiar with organizatioin) doesn't mean they aren't whacked a little in the head.

I told her she could very well have ended up dead. I could see she was disturbed and she could tell I was upset because she was naive enough to put herself in that situation. 

My sife is very naive when it comes to these things... she has been sheltered most of her life by husbands, sad to say. She's not street smart by any stretch of the imagination.. she is book smart/educated...


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

Well my WW spent the weekend at my place.. we had a great time and talked extensively about what went wrong. I see her reason for leaving.. it was pretty much out of control at the time.. I see that if she would have stayed we wouldn't of had a chance.. I believe the seperation did us both good and gave us distance to get perspective. 

We are taking it slow and we are going to seek out a good MC as well as IC counselors for each of us. It looks promising but I am not going to put all my eggs in one basket...

We will see how things go.


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