# Divorced Dads: Shattering the Myths



## movealong (Aug 9, 2013)

Review: Divorced Dads: Shattering the Myths

Link to Book: Divorced Dads: Shattering the Myths


I haven't seen this on search, but maybe I missed it. 

From the review:



> Braver, who has conducted an eight-year study of parents after divorce, knocks down the stereotypes one by one. To begin with, most divorced fathers don't "walk out." At least two-thirds of the time, the mother is not only the one who files for divorce but the one who wants out of the marriage. And it's usually not, as many assume, because the father beats her, drinks or cheats; most commonly, mothers cite such reasons as "growing apart" or "not feeling loved or appreciated."
> 
> Nor is it true that, once divorced, fathers are likely to desert their children emotionally and financially. Most fathers who are steadily employed consistently pay child support (their record is especially impressive if one looks not only at mothers' reports, on which most statistics are based, but at fathers' own reports) and work to stay in their children's lives. So-called "runaway dads" are often "driven-away dads": they vanish because their ex-wives keep them away.
> 
> ...


I found this while searching for support for single dads, which I am about to be again. My first marriage ended in divorce in the early 1990's, and my current marriage will be finalized in a couple of months. I was lucky enough to get custody of my two sons from my first marriage (they were 3 and 1 at the time). I did receive child support from their mother, and I finished college before my oldest turned 8. 

Now I find myself, unfortunately and not of my desire, going through another divorce after a 13 year marriage. We agreed to allow our daughter to choose where she wanted to stay, and to my great surprise, she chose me so she could stay near friends and continue to go to school here.

I had to fight stereotyping as a single dad then, and I was wondering if the same stereotypes are out there today? Most people then assumed I "had them for the weekend/holiday" rather than thinking I was the guardian/custodial parent. 

It also points out that most women, not the case in my first divorce but it is in this one, just want out. So, where divorced men have been derogatorily called "sperm donors", a lot of women should, imo, have been classified as "egg donors".

I believe that in most cases men are as capable, if not more capable, than women to raise the kids. 

I was wondering what others thought about this issue.


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## Nikita2270 (Mar 22, 2014)

> So, where divorced men have been derogatorily called "sperm donors", a lot of women should, imo, have been classified as "egg donors".


I believe that the term "sperm donor" generally refers to men that father children whom they don't visit...whether or not they pay CS.

It really has zero to do with a man who decides to leave a marriage.



> I believe that in most cases men are as capable, if not more capable, than women to raise the kids.


Neither gender is more capable of raising kids. Children need both parents and the representation of both genders.  The most desirable circumstance for children after a divorce is to have two parents who recognize that its a child's right to have a strong relationship with both parents.



> It also points out that most women, not the case in my first divorce but it is in this one, just want out.


What's your point? Yes, women have the right to leave bad marriages. Both genders should have the right to do this.

I think you're trying to suggest women leaving bad marriages somehow reflects negatively on women...but I think its just the opposite. It takes a lot of courage to get out of a bad relationship. You should always try to take whatever means you can to save your marriage...but when all else fails...move on.

If you're trying to suggest that women walk out of marriages for frivolous reasons...I would disagree. I would argue that a lot of men who didn't fix issues that their ex-wife told them were deal-breakers don't see those issues as divorce-worthy. But their ex-partners would tell a different story.

Look...you've been through two divorces. Maybe instead of reading books to deflect blame...you should be spending more time trying to figure out what's going wrong potentially from your end. Maybe your chick-picker is broken.


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## movealong (Aug 9, 2013)

Do you think you could address the review of the book and the findings of the book without casting aspersion on me?


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

I have felt a lot of the stereotypes mentioned. I have my kids as much as I can. I financially support them and attend all their functions. To me their is no other way to be they are my responsibility and I love them with all my heart. I also did not want to get divorced but was cheated on and left. I don't know what the ratios are to "deadbeat" dads and involved fathers but I know I'm certainly not alone in being the best dad I can be. Good post.

Probably the only stereotype that bugs me is when I bring up to a stranger that I am a divorced dad of two daughters. More than once I have been asked ohh that's great, do you ever see them? Ummm WTF of course. Just because I'm a guy and have girls doesn't mean I don't want them lol. Some people are too stupid for words.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Who cares what other people think or what our ****tty society norm is.

What really matters is what you do and how you take care of your children. If you do a good job, that's all that matters.

And bravo to you and other single dads in this thread. It's so nice to see fathers taking on responsibility!!!

:smthumbup:


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## over20 (Nov 15, 2013)

Movealong, great post! There is a poster on TAM called "Moving Ahead" ironically similar to your name. He is a very noble man who has been screwed by the system. He gives a lot of advice to men in your situation. He describes all the things you speak of, as does your article. His story is very sad. The only difference, he was cheated on by his wife.


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## movealong (Aug 9, 2013)

I feel for you, Wolf. I used to get some strange looks from people after they found out I had custody of my sons. One question that was often implied, and sometimes asked, was "Are you or your parents wealthy?"

Nope, I just wanted my children and I was willing to go to whatever lengths necessary to have them with me. There was talk of my first XW seeing someone at the hospital where she worked, and before I could do some recon, she asked for a separation. I obliged her and she got an apartment and left the kids with me so she could have some time "to get herself together". The Monday after she moved out, I filed. Never looked back and never regretted it.

This time is different. I really do not know, nor care, whether there is someone else. I worked on me, changed me, and tried to work on the marriage. She was not willing to do anything but just be here.

She is like the women described in the article, that walk away and do not try to fix anything, just is gone.

Again, there is no lengths I would not go to for my daughter, but I am fortunate that she chose to stay with me and we get to part amicably.

I am not looking forward to the stereotypical questions and looks, but I am looking forward to moving on with my life.


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## movealong (Aug 9, 2013)

Thanks, DoF!

O20 - I will have to see if I can find some of the posts by Moving Ahead.

Thanks for the replies.


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## WolverineFan (Nov 26, 2013)

In "most cases" it is always better for the children to be raised by both parents in a loving home. I am a divorced father who has stayed in my children's lives and was not concerned about "stereotypes" of any kind. I just wanted my kids to be happy, healthy, and hopeful that they could have an intact family some day. 

Even though I went through an unwanted divorce, I now work for a Marriage & Family Non-Profit. I found an article with the following quote:

"More than 30 years of research continues to reveal the negative effects of divorce on children. Most of these measurable effects are calculated in increased risks. In other words, while divorce does not mean these effects will definitely occur in your child, it does greatly increase the risks. The odds are simply against your kids if you divorce."

I wish more parents would realize how damaging divorce really is and all parties would commit themselves to do whatever it takes to have a healthy marriage. In cases like yours, when you have no choice in the matter, commit yourself to having as healthy a family as you can and PRAY for your children every day. They need to feel as safe and as loved as possible. My prayers are with you brother!


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## whitehawk (Aug 14, 2012)

l agree with a lot of that and l've noticed a lot of it since l've been going through it.

Some of the attitudes toward men getting a d are just fkg ridiculous.
All the stereo thinking favors the women even in the legal system , any help on offer that lot , it's bs .
And women are definitely automatically biased sympathetic toward the wife without even knowing what's happened , it's just assumed it's al his fault and she's a poor little thing ,yet often don't even bother raising an eye brow toward the guy. 

l think one of the biggest surprises to me though is that l would now trust a man by far , to keep the family together than a women , by a mile.
Where as the women seem to start of the loving considerate mother but givem 10 or 15 yrs and all they care about is themselves in the end because they'll destroy the family at the drop of a hat the minute things aren't perfect for them anymore.

None of this is said from a bitterness or jaded sense , it's just what l've found most common by far and it's right through the divorce stuff even right here at Tam.
Ever notice that's stuffs a bout 3 or 4 men to one women round here , pretty, well says it all .


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

whitehawk said:


> l agree with a lot of that and l've noticed a lot of it since l've been going through it.
> 
> Some of the attitudes toward men getting a d are just fkg ridiculous.
> All the stereo thinking favors the women even in the legal system , any help on offer that lot , it's bs .
> ...


It's called Gender discrimination that is running rampant within our society.

At the end of the day, any decent human being would know that it comes down to THE PERSON, not their gender.

But at the same time, we don't have too many decent human beings with common sense.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

DoF said:


> At the end of the day, any decent human being would know that it comes down to THE PERSON, not their gender.


I agree. We have to get away from assuming because a person is male or female they're going to act a certain way in raising the kids. Each situation has to be evaluated on its own merit to establish what is best for the children. 

I do think we're moving in that direction however there are always going to be anecdotal stories of men or women who got "screwed" in a divorce.


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## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

I'm a recently divorced father of two young girls. I was cheated on by my ex and in my mind she actually cheated on the family not just me. Her actions betrayed her oath to me but it also tore our family apart and thus betrayed her parental responsibility. Even after the cheating, the stealing, the lying etc. there was still this assumption by my ex and her family that, she as the mother, had some special claim to the children. The idea seemed to be that my job was to walk away from my kids and our home and just send money so everyone's life could just continue as if nothing had happened. Everyone's life but mine of course. Obviously that wasn't going to happen and so I'm the bad guy because I would not settle for less then 50% time with my kids.


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## Feeling-Lonely (Nov 13, 2013)

My dad raised me and my 4 sisters. I originally was told to stay with my mom, (stereotypes) but it was too much work for her so she gave me up, I was 4. She never waned to keep a job to take care of kids do my dad raised all of us.


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## movealong (Aug 9, 2013)

Feeling-Lonely said:


> My dad raised me and my 4 sisters. I originally was told to stay with my mom, (stereotypes) but it was too much work for her so she gave me up, I was 4. She never waned to keep a job to take care of kids do my dad raised all of us.


I was going to click the "like" button, but somehow it doesn't seem appropriate.

I am glad you had your father there to take responsibility.


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## movealong (Aug 9, 2013)

Shoto1984 said:


> I'm a recently divorced father of two young girls. I was cheated on by my ex and in my mind she actually cheated on the family not just me. *Her actions betrayed her oath to me but it also tore our family apart and thus betrayed her parental responsibility.* Even after the cheating, the stealing, the lying etc. there was still this assumption by my ex and her family that, she as the mother, had some special claim to the children. The idea seemed to be that my job was to walk away from my kids and our home and just send money so everyone's life could just continue as if nothing had happened. Everyone's life but mine of course. *Obviously that wasn't going to happen and so I'm the bad guy because I would not settle for less then 50% time with my kids*.


My actions and reactions were my fault, I take responsibility for them. Her actions and reactions were her fault and she never took responsibility. It is the difference between being committed or being dedicated. When it came right down to it, I was committed, she was just dedicated.

I have found more support groups and attorneys for single dads this time around than there were in the early 90's during my first divorce. My first EX didn't see the kids for almost 3 years, then saw them once a year until they got old enough not to want to go back out there.

I am not forcing my daughter from this marriage to do anything she doesn't want to do. I will follow the court order, but I will go with whatever she wants as far as seeing the STBXW.

It is ironic that as women become more "independent", men are picking up the responsibility for the kids. I don't know if I ever want to get married again, or just have a good LTR. I have my children, and a wife is not a necessity.


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## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

I agree. I guess we go through stages and time will help but I also doubt that I will be married again. I gave it my all and got crushed for it. In my late 40's I don't see myself having/wanting more kids and so I don't see why I would take on so much downside risk with anyone. I think I can have a meaningful and rewarding relationship without the label.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

Shoto1984 said:


> The idea seemed to be that my job was to walk away from my kids and our home and just send money so everyone's life could just continue as if nothing had happened. Everyone's life but mine of course. Obviously that wasn't going to happen and so I'm the bad guy because I would not settle for less then 50% time with my kids.


It wouldn't be just your life that would be impacted if you didn't have regular access to your kids. It would be your kids lives as well. They deserve to have you in their life. They aren't responsible for the divorce so it wouldn't make sense to punish them for it. Your kids will appreciate you fighting for them.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

Shoto1984 said:


> I agree. I guess we go through stages and time will help but I also doubt that I will be married again. I gave it my all and got crushed for it. In my late 40's I don't see myself having/wanting more kids and so I don't see why I would take on so much downside risk with anyone. I think I can have a meaningful and rewarding relationship without the label.


I've elected to do the same thing. Been married once...got the t-shirt...in fact that's about all I walked away with. 

As there are no more kids in my future I don't see any need to get married. I've been with my current partner for over a decade now. We have no intention of getting married.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

I'm about to be divorced. My stbxw cheated, then left. Then she wanted back in...which I let her for a while, then I ended reconciliation and filed for D. I have my kids Wednesday-Sunday every week, and I pay her child support. I never beat her or cheated on her. And yup, her excuse was that I didn't appreciate her and that she "deserves to be happy". 

So basically I took a giant dump on those stereo types.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Much of the impressions come from the statements men make. To be fair, you can do an informal analysis of post on TAM. 
I may be mistaken, but from what I have read of post from men who are going thru D and the men who advise them is that the primary concern is to use as many young women for sex as possible. Re-establishing self esteam is paramount and dependant on have sex with random women. Emotional healing is based upon having sex. Giving the ex money for any purpose is a source of much distress. 

I don't think that is true. I don't believe 90% of what men say when they are hurt and angry. Sex is another word for loneliness, emotional distress, depression and grief. They feel the same as women but it's not socially acceptable to own those feelings. 

Plus sex gave them emotional satisfaction with the woman they loved. It's more acceptable to look for a replacement than to talk about how they feel and to admit to being deeply effected.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

This is a great article. It proves my point I have been making all along that as far as divorce settlements are concerned, the system favors women. It is now an UNDISPUTABLE fact. Both men AND women recognize this as truth.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I don't think that you can generalize from individual experiences. The only unfairness is that so much of the system depends on the courts. That's the last place to go if you want fairness and equity. I may be wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## movealong (Aug 9, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> I don't think that you can generalize from individual experiences. The only unfairness is that so much of the system depends on the courts. That's the last place to go if you want fairness and equity. I may be wrong.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


As the book/article states, the courts are biased against dads. The evidence is not anecdotal, it is factual. It is a problem in our culture because it should be based on the best parent being the primary guardian of the child(ren). 

Now, not all men or women are cut out to be parents in the first place. But the court should review more carefully which is best able to take care of the child. Far too many cases end with the woman getting custody, alimony, child support, and at last half the assets from the marriage and the man leaving with half the assets, most of the bills (usually), and now he has to pay all the extra.

In my opinion, I think it is high time for the court system to not only recognize that men are as capable, but in some cases more capable. Let us take equality into the court and know that the system will work out best for the child.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

"You lose your time, or you get to be the bad guy. Either way, I win." Quote from my exwife regarding my complaint that she schedules activities for my son during my visitation time...activities such as camping trips in Colorado. I showed the court the document she said that in, and the court agreed with her that the choice was mine...let him go, and lose my time, or tell him he can't go.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> "You lose your time, or you get to be the bad guy. Either way, I win." Quote from my exwife regarding my complaint that she schedules activities for my son during my visitation time...activities such as camping trips in Colorado. I showed the court the document she said that in, and the court agreed with her that the choice was mine...let him go, and lose my time, or tell him he can't go.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I faced that to some extent as well. It's a shame when one side tries to use the kids as a weapon to get back at the ex. Personally I chose not to be the bad guy and took the kids to the events their mother signed them up for. I didn't think it was fair to 'punish' the kids for their mothers attempt to 'assert' control. I don't really know if that was the right way to go or not.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

MaritimeGuy said:


> I faced that to some extent as well. It's a shame when one side tries to use the kids as a weapon to get back at the ex. Personally I chose not to be the bad guy and took the kids to the events their mother signed them up for. I didn't think it was fair to 'punish' the kids for their mothers attempt to 'assert' control. I don't really know if that was the right way to go or not.


For me, it's not a mater of not wanting to take the kids to the activities and what not, because most of the smaller things, I do. What she tends to do is schedule trips and things that last multiple days that are half way across the country over my weekends.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> For me, it's not a mater of not wanting to take the kids to the activities and what not, because most of the smaller things, I do. What she tends to do is schedule trips and things that last multiple days that are half way across the country over my weekends.


Personally I wish the court would have slapped her wrist for something like that. If it happened once in a while it could simply be circumstance. i.e. that's when the camp they really wanted to go to happened to be offered. When it's a pattern it's obviously malicious.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

MaritimeGuy said:


> Personally I wish the court would have slapped her wrist for something like that. If it happened once in a while it could simply be circumstance. i.e. that's when the camp they really wanted to go to happened to be offered. When it's a pattern it's obviously malicious.


We tried, but her argument was that she never physically prevented me from taking my son for the weekend, and that she never would. Even with her motives blatantly expressed, the court still sided with her reasoning.

The courts are heavily skewed in the mothers favor, and I think the reason more people do not find themselves in the situation I have is simply most women choose not to use all of the tools available to them to do what my ex has and continues to do to me.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

I often think back to King Solomon's fable when trying to consider my course of action:

One day two women came before the King. They carried with them a little baby, which was set down on the floor, at the foot of Solomon’s throne.

“O my lord,” said one of the women, “five days ago I gave birth to a child. This woman and I live in the same house, and three days later she also gave birth, but that same night her child died, and at midnight she arose and, while I was sleeping, took my son away from me, and laid her dead child in its place. When I awoke in the morning I thought at first that my son was dead, until I realised that it was not my child.”

“No,” interrupted the second woman, “she lies, my lord, she lies! The living child is mine and the dead is hers!”

“No,” cried the first woman, wildly. “No, the dead child is yours, and the living child is mine.”

King Solomon raised his hand for silence. “One of you says ‘my child lives and yours is dead ’, and the other says ‘your child is dead and my child lives’: there is a simple way to resolve the matter. Bring me a sword.”

A sword was brought, and the assembly waited to see how the King would proceed.

“Very well,” he said, “ cut the child in two, and give half to one mother, and half to the other.”

The first woman turned pale. “O my lord,” she said in a faltering voice. “Pray, give her the child. I beg you, do not kill it.”

But the other woman’s face remained hard. “Let it be neither mine nor yours,” she said, “divide it as the King has ordained.”

Then Solomon arose, and pointed to the first woman. “The child belongs to her, ” he said. “Give her the child, and do not kill it. She is its mother.”


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

I think single mothers that were never married DO struggle financially more than the men who fathered children. 

But regarding married couples with children who divorced, I have seen both sides. I never bothered to keep a tally of who had it worse. There are great, involved, loving fathers and WAWs that are hardly in the picture and there are doting mothers with absent fathers focused on everything but the kids. I know that there are two sides to every story, too.

My ex would say I have it good. He does pay his child support. He thinks I live in the lap of luxury and that is far from the truth - I'm just a LOT better managing money than he is. We were always broke when we were married - has has expensive taste and no real plan on how to make things happen. Now that I am in charge of the money, bills are paid on time and I don't live beyond my means. He lives with his elderly mother. So I'm sure me owning my home while he lives with his mother implies I'm doing SO much better than he is but I worked my butt off to get where I am.

Reality is, he has a gas guzzler, chooses to live where he has an hour commute each direction. He continues to work for himself where his income is limited because he can't get along with others. I live 11 miles from work and have been promoted four times in the years since divorce.

He is very involved with our daughter and I'm glad she has that. I am NOT happy that he feels he has to try to make me out to be the bad guy all of the time therefore his time with her is limited by the courts and my enforcing that. It's a careful balance. 

He would also say I'm a WAW. The truth is I DID walk away after 15 years of verbal/emotional and eventually physical abuse, and the last 3 years of asking him to get help, go to IC, MC, anger management... I talked and cried and finally I was done and when I was he looked shocked as if this was out of the blue and he was surprised. 

So I'm VERY careful with labels. Because I know how I've been labeled and if you asked him or any of his friends (but none of his family because they REALLY know me) they would say I was awful, hateful, took his money, pushed him away from his child, and turned my back and walked away thinking only of myself. When in reality, this is the farthest from his delusional truth one could get.

So I avoid labels and there are statistic but they can be skewed and there is an individual story behind each one. And that story is what I want to know, not the label.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Sounds like you are doing great.

Also sounds like he is slowly realizing what he messed up on and is jealous as hell.

Karma is a *****

I believe that those that do harm to others usually get it 5-10 times worse in the end.......

:smthumbup:


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## gettingout (Jan 15, 2013)

I think that every divorce is different and every family is different and should be decided on a case by case basis and NOT by formulas and cookie cutter approaches.

My very good friend married a guy whose wife cheated on him. Ex-W does not work and sleeps most of the day (mental issues? depression? laziness? I don't know). She remarried (also to an unemployed person) and they live rather horribly. He has his daughter almost FT and my friend is trying to be the best stepmom she can be....even though the teenage daughter obviously prefers mom for emotional reasons who is more like a "buddy." There is no alimony or child support anymore.
But they ask for gas money to take the kid out, and my friend pays for this child like she is her own. She does not complain.

My STBXH does what is publicly appropriate when he feels like it to get public "props" for his narcissistic feed but when it is not convenient for him will blow off his child's events to go hang out with friends. Goes a week without calling. Originally wanted as little custody as possible but when he realized what that would cost (after speaking to professionals) changed his tune. Tried for 50-50 and screwed it up innumerable ways. I think we've settled on something that puts the child at the least risk (there are health issues that dad is not capable of managing very well) - we'll see. 

But like my friend's daughter and her mom- my child identifies with his same sex parent. That is an important psychological consideration I have to consider.

I am not a WAW. I struggled for years with the decision to leave a horrible marriage and decided that I had to knowing that even with a FT job (I have after being out of workforce for a long time, am restarting careers) and LD alimony and CS I will be "less off" that I was before. But in so many ways I will be better off...


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

gettingout said:


> I think that every divorce is different and every family is different and should be decided on a case by case basis and NOT by formulas and cookie cutter approaches.


This is exactly what I think. 

I feel like the basic assumption in divorce is that Dad is going to go out buy a sports car, move into and expensive condo with a 20 yr old bimbo, vacation regularly in the Bahamas while mom is left home with the kids bagging groceries to earn $5 an hour in order to put some food on the table. The reality today is divorces cover a whole spectrum of situations. The system needs to adjust and deal with each situation on its own merit.


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> Probably the only stereotype that bugs me is when I bring up to a stranger that I am a divorced dad of two daughters. More than once I have been asked ohh that's great, do you ever see them? Ummm WTF of course. Just because I'm a guy and have girls doesn't mean I don't want them lol. Some people are too stupid for words.


There's a reason that people ask that question. It may not apply to you, but that doesn't make them stupid.


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## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

Fenix said:


> There's a reason that people ask that question. It may not apply to you, but that doesn't make them stupid.


Well I guess there are a few options here...

A. They're very well informed and know that the courts have been screwing fathers over forever and so they are assuming he got screwed over too.

B. Their small brains can't wrap around anything beyond a stereotype of father's who did/do any number of bad things and never should have been parents to start with and stuck him in that group.

Happy Father's Day.


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