# Wife blew off my 50th birthday - VERY dark day right now...



## bild-a-loco

Been married 20 years, we've been going to counseling because for the last half dozen years I've felt increasingly unimportant and neglected, she doesn't seem to think twice about me but cries every time something like this comes up and apologizes profusely. She is not cheating on me, we don't argue, she's not verbally abusive, she's just self-centered and downright thoughtless, which is what we've been going to counseling for - that obviously isn't working. 

Yesterday was my 50th birthday, and I got a big, fat, absolutely nothing. I got a card and a small cake (we're both on a diet), my teenage daughter lives at home with us and my 84-year-old dad came over to have some cake. He brought me a present that was pretty cool, and then my daughter looked at my wife waiting for whatever, and nothing came. She's seventeen and she got mad as hell and read my wife the riot act later that evening. We talked, yet again, at bedtime about it, she cried a lot, apologized yet again, and left me to lay there pondering what the hell I'm doing by repeatedly punishing myself - this has become a serious pattern with her. 

Her excuse for having done nothing and gotten nothing was as follows, "I'm going to get you something, I just haven't gotten it figured out yet." I collect prewar Lionel electric trains and have since I was ten - honestly, what's there to figure out? We started talking about my 50th birthday three months ago and I told her I didn't want a party that would involve food or many members of my family, but I'd rather have something with my friends at a neutral location, a coffee shop or a fun game night somewhere (Cards Against Humanity, something like that). I discussed about a dozen possible gifts I'd like when she asked about them, told her where they could be gotten and how much they should cost. And once again, she did absolutely nothing except pick up a cake on the way home from work at the local grocery store. I am seriously mangled this morning. 

This has become the norm. For the last five or six years, she hasn't done anything I would consider "special" for me, at all, for any occasion. Yet she insists she's never meant to hurt my feelings or disappoint me. She told me last night she's "scared to buy me a present because she's scared she'll get the wrong thing." After I've given her a list, literally, of things I would like and places where they can be bought? So instead of getting the "wrong thing" the answer is to get nothing at all? 

I don't know what to do - I love this woman, but I feel like she's becoming an expert in inflicting pain through mental abuse. Her 50th birthday was an epic blowout, planned by me for over a month, our 20th anniversary a couple of months ago was, again, a big deal and she ended up falling asleep on me that night (no sex) in a fabulous luxurious suite after a major expensive meal and a night on the town. I spent $400 treating her like a queen that night, and she wanted to "rest" when we got back to the room, she fell asleep, then she snored the whole rest of the night. I bought her a nice watch for our anniversary, I got nothing. And that's how it's gone - I'm absolutely sick of it. 

Sorry to rant. Needed a place to vent. If I sound like a spoiled brat, I apologize. I'm not expecting a new Jaguar or something like that for every occasion, I would just appreciate some recognition that I have worth and am thought about - she seems incapable of that now.


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## Hicks

Just because you like parties and gifts, doesnt mean she does.

She is trying to tell you that you are not meeting her emotional needs but is being passive aggressive about it.


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## bandit.45

I don't know about the emotional needs thing. He said he did a big 50th birthday party for her. If that is not demonstrative then I don't know what you would call it. 

Seems like she just doesn't give a sh!t about birthdays and holidays and such. Some people just don't. I'm not big on celebrating my birthday. But she sounds boorish and selfish to me. Time to decide if you want to stay married to her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bild-a-loco

Actually, wrong conclusions - she absolutely loves parties and gifts, so long as they're pertaining to her or are important to her. She's something akin to Martha Stewart in regards to throwing Christmas parties at our house - we usually have two or three each year and they're meticulously planned huge affairs (all planned and done by her) with loads of baking, fancy foods, and you name it. 

Likewise, she volunteers to host parties for just about every person we've ever known (seemingly) who's having a baby shower or wedding shower or anything of that nature - she loves to travel, she loves to throw parties, she spends months planning her Christmas galas. My birthdays, however, always sneak up on without any notice whatsoever and take her completely by surprise. This doesn't occur with friend's birthdays or our daughter's birthdays, just mine.  And again, it's not just birthdays, it's pretty much anything to do with me. And yet, she insists it's not intentional, she loves me, and she can't stand the thought of being without me - I DO NOT understand!!??!!


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## SunnyT

My ex was like that. In his case I would say it was thoughtlessness. 

I just ended up working around him. First, I stopped expecting gifts....ever. The few I got were a nice surprize. 

For my 40th bday, I talked about making plans for a few months prior. He wouldn't agree to my ideas, or commit to anything. So I planned a Girl's Night Out. As the date drew closer he started whining about not being included. So I said he was welcome to join us.... he declined. The next day he said how depressed he was that we didn't "do anything together". By then, I could only shake my head.... he had chances. 

My point? Some people just don't get it. It's not the fanfare we want (altho it seems that they certainly like fanfare when it's THEIR turn!).... it's recognition, consideration, SOMETHING. 

So make your own plans.... invite her or not. Be determined to have a good time with or without her!


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## Sporto

Maybe she is just absent minded. Is she meeting all your other needs? Sexual etc...


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## happy as a clam

Dump her. She cares more about Martha Stewart and "impressions" (over her entertaining skills, party planning, Christmas parties) than she does YOU!!

Let's see.... YOUR 50th birthday (once in a lifetime celebration) or some "perfectly placed" Poinsettias for a holiday party with virtual strangers, via "Martha's advice"...

Easy!! Away with you, Wench!!


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## Blonde

I think you are over-reacting. A card and a small cake (being mindful of your diet) is not "nothing". Plus hosting your dad.

It was a nice intimate family party.

Based on your reaction, lack of appreciation, punishing her, "shame on her" fest with your daughter... I can't blame her for being scared to even try.


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## happy as a clam

Blonde said:


> I think you are over-reacting.


Totally disagree.


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## Happilymarried25

Yes, I agree she should have gotten you something for your birthday but I think you are being a bit dramatic. You sound like a wife not a husband.She sounds like she is sorry. If everything else in the marriage is fine then this to me sounds like a little problem. My husband and I aren't into giving gifts for birthdays. We take each other out for a nice meal. When I have asked him in the past what he wanted for his birthday he always says just a nice dinner. His last birthday he surprised me by asking for a guitar so I bought that for him. Other than a nice dinner neither one of us expects anything for our birthdays.


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## Plan 9 from OS

Without reading your background, is it safe to assume that you do a lot of things for her? I'm assuming you are thoughtful for a lot of items - holiday based and during normal days - for her while she does nothing to return the favor. 

IMHO, you are reinforcing the behavior that she exhibits towards you. You continue to tell her that you are hurt by her lack of attention to your needs, yet you still go all out for her. 

Something has got to change. I'd say, time to do the 180 and focus on yourself instead of worry about her at all. Focus on your daughter. Maybe go out to places - just you and your daughter and leave her to fend for herself. Remember though, the 180 is about you and is not supposed to be about getting your spouse to come back to you. However, a lot of times the spouse will try to get into your good graces when he/she suspects a pulling away.


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## 3Xnocharm

Sporto said:


> Maybe she is just absent minded. Is she meeting all your other needs? Sexual etc...


She isnt absent minded, she remembers and puts forth effort for other people, just not him. Pretty sh!tty, in my opinion. Loco, you are not sounding like a spoiled brat at all. She does this on purpose. I am so sorry she did you like this on such a milestone day for you. And that she did the same on your 20th anniversary?? Yeah, this is for sure on purpose, and it stinks. What is the rest of your relationship like? Is she this selfish about other things?


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## happy as a clam

After re-reading your initial post, *your 50th celebration is the least of your problems.* Your wife is selfish, self-centered, thoughtless... ask yourself, "Do I really want to be married to someone like this?"

You deserve better.


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## Plan 9 from OS

Happilymarried25 said:


> Yes, I agree she should have gotten you something for your birthday but I think you are being a bit dramatic. You sound like a wife not a husband.She sounds like she is sorry. If everything else in the marriage is fine then this to me sounds like a little problem. My husband and I aren't into giving gifts for birthdays. We take each other out for a nice meal. When I have asked him in the past what he wanted for his birthday he always says just a nice dinner. His last birthday he surprised me by asking for a guitar so I bought that for him. Other than a nice dinner neither one of us expects anything for our birthdays.


Respectfully, that's a load of crap. Loco mentioned in the thread that his wife LOVES to put on HUGE GALAS and celebrations. That fact she will do this for everyone except him is quite telling. He SHOULD be pissed.


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## happy as a clam

3Xnocharm said:


> Pretty sh!tty, in my opinion. Loco, you are not sounding like a spoiled brat at all. She does this on purpose.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## happy as a clam

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Respectfully, that's a load of crap. Loco mentioned in the thread that his wife LOVES to put on HUGE GALAS and celebrations. That fact she will do this for everyone except him is quite telling. *He SHOULD be pissed.*


THANK YOU for all the rational posters on TAM!!

Loco, *YOU DESERVE BETTER!!!!*


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## GTdad

happy as a clam said:


> Dump her. She cares more about Martha Stewart and "impressions" (over her entertaining skills, party planning, Christmas parties) than she does YOU!!
> 
> Away with you, Wench!!


Maybe the most important thing I have to say to Bild is that this needs to be a viable, realistic option, and that's more of an emotional exercise than an intellectual one. 

My wife is much the same (though things continue to slowly, sometimes glacier-like, improve). I had to detach to the point where stuff like this no longer hurt, and I had the clarity of mind to calmly look at the pluses and minuses of staying in the marriage. I decided to stick with it, for reasons of my own.

Ironically, my detachment lad to improvements in the marriage. My wife would never admit it, but I think she was aware of it and it shook her up.

Divorce remains a possibility, though, and will always be. I've gotten over the emotional "hump".

I really, really recommend Robert Glover's "No More Mr. Nice Guy", even if you're adverse to self-help books, as I certainly was. It helps immensely with getting the clarity I think you need to make decisions regarding this marriage.


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## bandit.45

bild-a-loco said:


> Actually, wrong conclusions - she absolutely loves parties and gifts, so long as they're pertaining to her or are important to her. She's something akin to Martha Stewart in regards to throwing Christmas parties at our house - we usually have two or three each year and they're meticulously planned huge affairs (all planned and done by her) with loads of baking, fancy foods, and you name it.
> 
> Likewise, she volunteers to host parties for just about every person we've ever known (seemingly) who's having a baby shower or wedding shower or anything of that nature - she loves to travel, she loves to throw parties, she spends months planning her Christmas galas. My birthdays, however, always sneak up on without any notice whatsoever and take her completely by surprise. This doesn't occur with friend's birthdays or our daughter's birthdays, just mine.  And again, it's not just birthdays, it's pretty much anything to do with me. And yet, she insists it's not intentional, she loves me, and she can't stand the thought of being without me - I DO NOT understand!!??!!


I can't form conclusions without data brother. You could have mentioned that in your original post instead of browbeating me.

Stop doing things for her. Stop being nice. Read Married Mans Sex Life Primer. Read No More Mr Nice Guy. The things you have been doing aren't working. Switch tracks. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_h


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## tulsy

My ex-wife was like that too. It got worse every year...I would give more, she would give less, till she gave nothing at all. Really makes you feel worthless, and it's from the one person you want to make you feel like you are special to them. 

I feel for ya, man. I really do. It never got any better for me. The 180 helped me cope and prepare for the eventual split, even though I was secretly hoping it would cause her to actually start trying; it didn't.

The woman I am with now makes me feel special every day. I KNOW that I am appreciated. It's a nice feeling....actually, nice is an understatement...it's absolute bliss.

I would try the 180 and see what happens. You'll probably be like me; secretly hoping it will cause her to start trying, but she likely won't. At least you'll be prepared to take your life where you want to go, whatever you decide.

180..live it.


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## LongWalk

Do you have a good sex life?


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## bandit.45

Time for you to start focusing on you. I see a sports car in your future.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Plan 9 from OS

bandit.45 said:


> Time for you to start focusing on you. I see a sports car in your future.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Or anal sex...


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## bandit.45

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Or anal sex...


Fvck her up the poop shoot and that will make it all better huh?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tom67

bandit.45 said:


> Fvck her up the poop shoot and that will make it all better huh?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Eh...
I'll take a new camaro


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## DoF

Plan 9 from OS said:


> IMHO, you are reinforcing the behavior that she exhibits towards you. You continue to tell her that you are hurt by her lack of attention to your needs, yet you still go all out for her.


So your advice is to lower himself to HER standards?

I would advice him to simply divorce her and find someone that will show him more care and is most unselfish.

He has already said he has been trying for years and she continues to be negligent.

What else is there other than divorce? She is unwilling to compromise or care about his needs.

By no means lower yourself to her standards OP. The entire "don't be nice guy" is ALL wrong. If you are a good person and someone uses it to their advantage or doesn't appreciate it......their action should tell you that they are simply a ****TY person and one that you probably shouldn't be around.

Being a nice guy = one of the best people shiit filters on the planet!!!

I would accept the loses here and move on if I were the OP. If you feel like your relationship doesn't make you happy or feel great EACH AND EVERY DAY......it's done.


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## bandit.45

He can be a nice guy and still stop doing things for her. Let him try ambivalence and see what that gets him before pulling the plug on the marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EnjoliWoman

Have you read "His Needs/Her Needs" or the five languages of love?

Just because she enjoys entertaining, doesn't mean that is her love language - she may be giving 'love' in ways she wants love and it just may be VERY different. Perhaps you two could tune in she doesn't realize one of your love languages is gifts. Maybe she has a language you aren't tuned into. 

Your daughter is old enough that perhaps you'll have to enlist her assistance by having her remind her mother, ask mom to go birthday shopping, etc. to help get a gift and arrange things.

However, if it is merely being passive-aggressive, acting the princess and then manipulating you with tears to keep you where she wants you, I would say there won't be improvement. Only you can tell. In that instance, I would say the "no more mister nice guy" is the way to go, and don't indulge her with the attention she seems to desire even if you enjoy giving it.


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## DoF

bandit.45 said:


> He can be a nice guy and still stop doing things for her. Let him try ambivalence and see what that gets him before pulling the plug on the marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I get it. So basically don't be yourself and become a ****ty person towards her.

Sorry, completely disagree.

If she can't appreciate you for the good person that are OP, she is NOT the person you WANT to be with anyways.


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## tulsy

I just don't think that "50th birthday gift" falls into the "gift-love-language" slot here. That's pretty pathetic.

After all those years of marriage, she couldn't figure out to get him a gift for his birthday? It's just thoughtless. 50 is a milestone, I might add. Like, WTF? 

I don't think that it has anything to do with "love language" in this case. Granted, they may differ in their love languages, and likely do...however, this was inconsiderate and unappreciative, IMO. It doesn't take a rocket scientist or a degree in Love Languages to figure out that you should get your spouse a gift for their 50th birthday.

She could have gotten him ANYTHING, but instead got him nothing.


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## bild-a-loco

Wow. Thanks for all the posts. I really don't want to divorce her, we've been married 20 years and were together for half a dozen before that - I have practically my whole life invested in this woman. I will check into the books mentioned, yes, I've already been told I'm "empowering" her by continuing to be the "nice guy" by our counselor, but that's just the way I'm wired up - I'm not a wimp, I'm just a traditional Southern guy who was raised to treat the woman you love special. 

I genuinely think she does love me, but she's just settled into an "old brown shoe" mode with me where I'm kinda' like a comfy pair of slippers - I'll be there whenever she needs me and she knows it. Our counselor, and me personally, have sat on the couch and told her that clearly, my "love language" is gifts and just simply thoughtful activities, and she's promised fifteen times (or more) to change her ways and turn things around. This has been going on, as I said for about the last five or six years. Granted, we're both older now, we have a seventeen-year-old daughter, work and real life are distractions, but geez, I deal with those just as much as she does and it hasn't stopped me. 

As for the other questions raised, we're in trouble in just about every area of our relationship. We had a fantastic sex life until about five or six years ago, she "got religion" (literally) and then everything fun and adventurous was a sin to her, so our sex life is almost totally dead now. Yes, we've had a lot of counseling about that too and none of it seems to be getting through to her. 

I'm kinda' to the point of doing what's been mentioned, just wanting to put up a complete wall to insulate myself from her and keep from being slammed repeatedly. That's not my nature though, so that in itself would take some self-training. I really don't want this to end in divorce, but honestly, I don't even want to go home right now, I'd rather just stay here at work and sleep at my desk. :loser:


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## tulsy

DoF said:


> I get it. So basically don't be yourself and become a ****ty person towards her.
> 
> Sorry, completely disagree.
> 
> If she can't appreciate you for the good person that are OP, she is NOT the person you WANT to be with anyways.


I don't believe he has to he a chitty person towards her. There comes a point where you have to stop doing things for people who take advantage of you and walk all over your feelings, without consideration.

It doesn't make you a chitty person. It makes you a stronger individual. You can't keep giving to someone who keeps taking...the relationship becomes unbalanced.

Maybe they can work this out. Either way, he has to take care of himself.


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## Openminded

You and the counselor have both told her what you need (including sex). She isn't responding. What does that tell you?

To me, it says that while she is important to you -- and you show it through your actions -- well, you aren't nearly as important to her. Her actions don't match her words. Which are you going to believe?


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## Tall Average Guy

bild-a-loco said:


> I don't know what to do - I love this woman, but I feel like she's becoming an expert in inflicting pain through mental abuse. Her 50th birthday was an epic blowout, planned by me for over a month, our 20th anniversary a couple of months ago was, again, a big deal and she ended up falling asleep on me that night (no sex) in a fabulous luxurious suite after a major expensive meal and a night on the town. I spent $400 treating her like a queen that night, and she wanted to "rest" when we got back to the room, she fell asleep, then she snored the whole rest of the night. I bought her a nice watch for our anniversary, I got nothing. And that's how it's gone - I'm absolutely sick of it.


So do you do these things because you love her and want her to enjoy herself, or do you do them because you expect something in return (sex, a reciprocal party, etc.). Because it sounds more like the latter than the former.

Read No more Mr. Nice Guy and learn up about covert contracts. I see some of this in your actions.


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## Ripper

bandit.45 said:


> Stop doing things for her. Stop being nice. Read Married Mans Sex Life Primer. Read No More Mr Nice Guy. The things you have been doing aren't working. Switch tracks.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_h


This. Start with No More Mr Nice Guy. Then Married Mans Sex Life Primer. It seems like it was almost tailored to your situation.

Be aware that this is a make or break solution. If you get far enough along in your MAP and she doesn't responded, you will be ready to hit the door.


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## Plan 9 from OS

bandit.45 said:


> Fvck her up the poop shoot and that will make it all better huh?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Of course not. No more than buying a brand new sports car. Underlying problems still exist, right?


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## Blossom Leigh

bild-a-loco said:


> Actually, wrong conclusions - she absolutely loves parties and gifts, so long as they're pertaining to her or are important to her. She's something akin to Martha Stewart in regards to throwing Christmas parties at our house - we usually have two or three each year and they're meticulously planned huge affairs (all planned and done by her) with loads of baking, fancy foods, and you name it.
> 
> Likewise, she volunteers to host parties for just about every person we've ever known (seemingly) who's having a baby shower or wedding shower or anything of that nature - she loves to travel, she loves to throw parties, she spends months planning her Christmas galas. My birthdays, however, always sneak up on without any notice whatsoever and take her completely by surprise. This doesn't occur with friend's birthdays or our daughter's birthdays, just mine.  And again, it's not just birthdays, it's pretty much anything to do with me. And yet, she insists it's not intentional, she loves me, and she can't stand the thought of being without me - I DO NOT understand!!??!!


I do...

This was my ex. 

Totally distracted by everything and everyone OUTSIDE of our marriage... plain and simple. He had no boundaries around his time for other people.

I felt like I chased him for 17 years.

I left in 2007. I was terrified to give him another 17 years of my life. Especially after mentioning sexual desire for three of my friends while he was intimate with me. I was done.

I was tired of bread crumbs... he blubbered like a baby anytime he was going to lose me but couldn't hardly be bothered by time with me or creating special moments with me. 

He also financially abused us, big time expensive toys for himself, but if I wanted something it was a fight. And even after years of financial warnings by me, we landed in bankruptcy.

But he was a hero firefighter and saw no wrong, expected me to fix whatever was bothering me about us. :scratchhead:


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## Tall Average Guy

Blossom Leigh said:


> But he was a hero firefighter and saw no wrong, expected me to fix whatever was bothering me about us. :scratchhead:


In some ways, this is the best you can do. You can't change your spouse, so it is on you to fix your issue. How you fix it will depend on your needs and what you are getting from the marriage. 

For the OP, it may be not expecting anything from her and making peace with her as she is. Or it may be matching her level of effort to avoid resentment. Or it may be ending the marriage.

Regardless, recognizing that the only person you can control is yourself is the first step.


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## Hicks

OK, here's what I see based on new data.

She got tired of your marriage about 6 years ago and replaced her marriage with Religion as her number one priority. Some people get "fooled" into thinking this is OK becuase religion is a morally good thing to be involved with. But you see it all over these boards that wives tend to exit marriages by finding something to replace it such as religion, working out, a job, a hobby, a friend, or an affair. Well more accurately, the affair usuually attaches itself to one of the others as the wife is continuing to push boudaries while husband is just trying to keep the peace in reaction mode. But basically it is the same "problem".

And that problem is they are unhappy in their marriage so they define the terms of their own life to include doing whatever they want to do and maintaining their marriage for what they get out of it only (i.e finances, social status, social perception, parental help, "for the kids", etc.). And the husband puts up with it. He becomes the nice guy. And in wanting her husband to change, and hold her accountable to being his wife, she keeps ratcheting up the behavior more and more extreme.

Now, there is one and only one way to deal with it. Accept nothing less than a wife and marriage that is on NORMAL TERMS. And what is normal terms? It is a man meeting the needs of a woman and a woman meeting the needs of a man. It is loving interaction. It is something that provides mutual fulfillment. It is a family operating as a team.

One of the things you have to look long and hard at is why wasn't her marriage fulfilling to her thus opening the door to replace it with Religion as #1.


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## U.E. McGill

Build - I'm going to scold you a little bit here. 

Your MC is right. You reward her for her poor behavior and, in my opinion, engage in covert contracts. 

You throw lavish parties for her and lament she didn't think the same way. Were you secretly hoping she'd see the light and do the same? If so, stop. It's unfair and manipulative. 

So here's some steps I would recommend. Stop doing stuff for her.
For the next what ever tell her EXACTLY what you want.

"I would like you to plan a dinner with friends"
"I would like a new GG1 in Tuscan 5 stripe livery"

I get the feeling your wife is struggling with your lack of leadership in the home in some ways. Pure speculation on my part, but you alluded to some other things. 

In fact I would tell her "Hun, my birthday sucked. I want a do over".Then praise her when she does it right. 

You can start doing things for her when you freely believe they are done as a gift.


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## WorkingOnMe

The over the top party for her 50th was definitely a covert contract.


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## Catherine602

You're not making too big a deal. 50 is a milestone, you talked about its importance to you, she remembered but ignored what you discussed. She knows you are in therapy and the nature of the problems. 

What would happen if you D? Would her life change in any way? She is very sure you will always be around and takes you for granted. Do you have any independent interest, friends of your own, hobbies and a night out a few times a month? 

It would help to be more independent from you wife. Don't depend on her for your emotional well being. Instead of telling her when she messes up, be proactive. 

Come to an agreement about exactly what you need. Give her time to change. If no change then discuss changing your relationship totally. Separation and D should alway be an option. Don't say it if you are unwilling to follow through.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DoF

tulsy said:


> I don't believe he has to he a chitty person towards her. There comes a point where you have to stop doing things for people who take advantage of you and walk all over your feelings, without consideration.


That's correct. Identifying and KNOWING who the person is in front of you is step #1.

Once you do that, you will quickly realize that the person is not worth being with or around.





tulsy said:


> It doesn't make you a chitty person. It makes you a stronger individual. You can't keep giving to someone who keeps taking...the relationship becomes unbalanced.
> 
> Maybe they can work this out. Either way, he has to take care of himself.


I still don't recommend changing and lowering your standards to crappy people.

a) that is NOT "yourself"
b) you are trying to continue a relationship with a crappy person

No thanks

I prefer to move on and find someone that will NOT take my kindness for granted or use it against me.


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## happy as a clam

bild-a-loco said:


> *Yes, I've already been told I'm "empowering" her by continuing to be the "nice guy" by our counselor*, but that's just the way I'm wired up - I'm not a wimp, I'm just a traditional Southern guy who was raised to treat the woman you love special.


*LISTEN TO YOUR COUNSELOR!!!!* Sorry, but you *ARE* being a wimp. I grew up in the South. No need to be a door mat because you are a "nice Southern guy." None of my "Southern guys" would have accepted this treatment for a minute.


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## jb02157

bild-a-loco said:


> Been married 20 years, we've been going to counseling because for the last half dozen years I've felt increasingly unimportant and neglected, she doesn't seem to think twice about me but cries every time something like this comes up and apologizes profusely. She is not cheating on me, we don't argue, she's not verbally abusive, she's just self-centered and downright thoughtless, which is what we've been going to counseling for - that obviously isn't working.


That's par for the course. I feel the same way. I got nothing for my 50th to while I gave her a huge party at a hotel for all of her friends for her 50th. I've also felt unimportant for the 20+ years of our marriage. I exist for one function and one function only, to pay the bills. Once that's done, I may as well disappear. The thoughlessness some women are capable of is truly incredible. The world would absolutely end if I forgot HER birthday. 

You told her this birthday was important to you and want kind of party you wanted and even what gift you wanted, where to get it and how much it cost...and she was scared she would buy the wrong thing????? 

I don't see why we have to put up with this crap.


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## alphaomega

I had a mutual fund that would lose 50% of the money I put in every month, practically the next day. I had it so long I felt that it was such a large investment of time and money I should stick with it to see if it turns around.

It never did recover. I finally realized it was time to end my investment.


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## Blossom Leigh

Tall Average Guy said:


> In some ways, this is the best you can do. You can't change your spouse, so it is on you to fix your issue. How you fix it will depend on your needs and what you are getting from the marriage.
> 
> For the OP, it may be not expecting anything from her and making peace with her as she is. Or it may be matching her level of effort to avoid resentment. Or it may be ending the marriage.
> 
> Regardless, recognizing that the only person you can control is yourself is the first step.



True, yet he didn't mean it in the way that you and I mean it.... he meant "get over it." Get over it without resolution in other words. Today I would have hit him hard with boundaries. Back then because I had no boundaries and could not get past it unresolved. I left.


----------



## murphy5

she sounds borderline psychotic to me. You know, like those people who can kill 50 because they have no feelings for others!

Some people don't have the same appreciation for presents or parties, but as you said she LOVES parties that are for her! So she is just not that into you. 

FIrst thing I would do is stop buying her stuff, or giving her parties. 

And her alligator tears AFTER she missed the party....sure...its all just acting.

I do know a little about what you are saying. Like at chrismas, I plan a lot of presents, really get something that I know she and the kids will like. She...I think she wakes up 5 days before Christmas, gets on amazon, and orders the first 2 things that look ok...10 minutes spent. I NEVER get anything that would have required a lot of leg work to have found. I have learned to live with it, but I definatly buy her a WHOLE HECK OF A LOT LESS nowadays, and NEVER any jewelry any more!

If you cant live with it (either the presents/parties or the lack of sex) seriously consider dumping her. At this point in your life, she is NOT going to change. Find someone a little more sensitive next time


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Hey and I agree with whoever said to stop rewarding her bad behavior...

the manipulation of lavishing her with things hoping that she will get the hint is just that... manipulation, but more specifically manipulation that backfires because the end result IS rewarding bad behavior. 

I would say a 180 is due this woman 

Make the wrong thing difficult and the right thing easy


----------



## GTdad

bild-a-loco said:


> I really don't want to divorce her, we've been married 20 years and were together for half a dozen before that - I have practically my whole life invested in this woman.


Believe me, I understand. I wasn't really hit by my wife's, say, "casualness" to our marriage until about the time our 25th anniversary, five years ago.


----------



## DoF

happy as a clam said:


> After re-reading your initial post, *your 50th celebration is the least of your problems.* Your wife is selfish, self-centered, thoughtless... ask yourself, "Do I really want to be married to someone like this?"
> 
> You deserve better.


Agreed, thus my advice to run, run FAST and never look back.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

180 her hard, give it a short timeframe and see what results... if you get a hard correction for the better in her behavior... maybe there is a shot, otherwise... if you don't do a timeframe you will be choosing to injure yourself by staying. 

It comes down to stay different or leave. 

My first marriage, I left

My second marriage I'm choosing to stay different.


----------



## Wolf1974

Ok having lived through similar here is my advice which coincides with what many here have suggested.

First thing I would do is figure about what you spent on her for her birthday then go get something for yourself about the same amount out of your joint account. No it's not as good as getting a gift but , and hear me on this, you have to take care of you if she won't. 

Second while I hate manipulation I have to agree with others that you should immediately stop doing for her. If she gives you nothing for your b day you should do the same. Nothing for v day , Christmas, Mother's Day......just stop it all. I only suggest this because you have talked to her and she evidently doesn't care or this behavior would have changed.

In the grand scheme I think you need to prepare that this is going to be your life unless you end the relationship. I spent my 30th birthday by myself in my house with a 6 pack of beer, I can to this day remember how miserable that made me feel. I was married at the time and her work commitments were more important than I was. It should have been a huge red flag for me but sadly wasn't. Unless you make a change this is how your 60th will go as well. I already have ensured that my 40th will be the best b day I have ever had! You have got to take control of this. 

For the few posters who are saying this isn't a big deal or gift giving isn't her love language that is total BS. 16/18/21/30/40/50/60/70/80th birthdays are huge milestones and need to be recognized and celebrated. That is just common sense


----------



## happy as a clam

DoF said:


> Agreed, thus my advice to run, run FAST and never look back.


----------



## syhoybenden

So now you're getting an idea of where you rank on her list of priorities.

Maybe it's time for you to return the favour and let her occupy a similar ranking on your list.


----------



## jb02157

bild-a-loco said:


> our 20th anniversary a couple of months ago was, again, a big deal and she ended up falling asleep on me that night (no sex) in a fabulous luxurious suite after a major expensive meal and a night on the town. I spent $400 treating her like a queen that night, and she wanted to "rest" when we got back to the room, she fell asleep, then she snored the whole rest of the night. I bought her a nice watch for our anniversary, I got nothing. And that's how it's gone - I'm absolutely sick of it.


I really happy you wrote this. Tomorrow I planned to celebrate our 25th annversary with her on a lavish week+ long vacation I have been planning for months. She never lifted a finger to help me plan it and I expect nothing but disappointments from her such as falling asleep, no sex, not being appeciative of it and probably no gift either. I'm really thinking about cancelling the damned thing now. Why should I put myself through a week+ of disappointment?


----------



## happy as a clam

jb02157 said:


> I I'm really thinking about cancelling the damned thing now. Why should I put myself through a week+ of disappointment?


I think you SHOULD cancel it. BDDT on many similar "unappreciated" trips. Total waste of money.


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## Blossom Leigh

jb02157 said:


> I really happy you wrote this. Tomorrow I planned to celebrate our 25th annversary with her on a lavish week+ long vacation I have been planning for months. She never lifted a finger to help me plan it and I expect nothing but disappointments from her such as falling asleep, no sex, not being appeciative of it and probably no gift either. I'm really thinking about cancelling the damned thing now. Why should I put myself through a week+ of disappointment?



Both of you guys need boundaries that say "it is not ok for you to be so calloused and thoughtless, distracted."

there are some great books out there on that kind of thing. 

Boundaries by Townsend is good

Holding people accountable for their p&ss poor behavior is so needed like never before...


----------



## chillymorn

You said you really love this woman.

what do you love about her?


----------



## lifeistooshort

I'm going to tell you what I'd tell a girlfriend in this situation: I don't think you're wrong to be upset, but you're wrong to keep nagging and shaming. Look, you obviously aren't that big of a priority for her so you can either live with that or leave, and why would you even want something you had to nag someone into? And stop doing things for her unless you can do them with the understanding that it's not going to be reciprocated. If she says something about it tell her it's clear she's not into these things so you won't waste your energy anymore. You sound like you have some PA nice guy tendencies you should look into. Sorry, it sucks but it is what it is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tulsy

DoF said:


> ...
> I still don't recommend changing and lowering your standards to crappy people.
> ....
> I prefer to move on and find someone that will NOT take my kindness for granted or use it against me.


Me too.


----------



## bild-a-loco

Thanks for all the pep talks guys and gals - it really has been helpful today to make me feel better knowing others out there give a Natt Sass and shamefully, that I'm not alone in this mess. 

I ordered the "No More Mr. Nice Guy" book earlier today off Amazon - that'll be my reading project next week - thanks for all the suggestions on books. 

You guys have me convinced, it is time to pull the "180" and just stop trying, and see what happens. We're remodeling our house right now, should be done with it by August or September, and then we'll be putting it up for sale. If things aren't better or showing any signs of improvement by then, I will certainly consider the nuclear option before buying another house - as much as that absolutely sickens me, the logical side of what brain I still have remaining is beating me to death with the pros and cons of where I'm now at. Things have to improve or the rest of my life is going to be horrible. 

And yes, the reason I'm so torn last night and today, and have been many times in the last half dozen years, is because I've been head-over-heels in love with this woman - not the woman she is now, but the woman she was when I met her and the woman she was for most of our years together. In all publically social aspects of our life, she's still the same person, but in our private lives, she's turned into a walking hurt locker. 

She's pretty, she's intelligent, we have a tremendous amount of things in common as far as likes and interests are concerned. But, she's just gone downhill as far as being absolutely thoughtless is concerned. I don't believe she really does it to be mean or does it intentionally, she just simply doesn't think about her lack of actions. When we talked last night at bedtime, she cried for over an hour, apologized profusely, and said she realized her apologies didn't mean anything because she's done this kind of thing so many times before - and she was 100% right, they didn't mean anything. 

The shields are up, I'm not going to let myself get hurt again, and I'm trying to frame my head around that - I just don't see how any relationship can survive that for very long. 

Thank you good people - you guys are very kind and I appreciate your advice very much.


----------



## tulsy

jb02157 said:


> I really happy you wrote this. Tomorrow I planned to celebrate our 25th annversary with her on a lavish week+ long vacation I have been planning for months. She never lifted a finger to help me plan it and I expect nothing but disappointments from her such as falling asleep, no sex, not being appeciative of it and probably no gift either. I'm really thinking about cancelling the damned thing now. Why should I put myself through a week+ of disappointment?


What is there to celebrate? Sticking it out for 25 yrs? :scratchhead:

Sounds like a nightmare vacation.


----------



## tulsy

bild-a-loco said:


> Thanks for all the pep talks guys and gals - it really has been helpful today to make me feel better knowing others out there give a Natt Sass and shamefully, that I'm not alone in this mess.
> 
> I ordered the "No More Mr. Nice Guy" book earlier today off Amazon - that'll be my reading project next week - thanks for all the suggestions on books.
> 
> You guys have me convinced, it is time to pull the "180" and just stop trying, and see what happens. We're remodeling our house right now, should be done with it by August or September, and then we'll be putting it up for sale. If things aren't better or showing any signs of improvement by then, I will certainly consider the nuclear option before buying another house - as much as that absolutely sickens me, the logical side of what brain I still have remaining is beating me to death with the pros and cons of where I'm now at. Things have to improve or the rest of my life is going to be horrible.
> 
> And yes, the reason I'm so torn last night and today, and have been many times in the last half dozen years, is because I've been head-over-heels in love with this woman - not the woman she is now, but the woman she was when I met her and the woman she was for most of our years together. In all publically social aspects of our life, she's still the same person, but in our private lives, she's turned into a walking hurt locker.
> 
> She's pretty, she's intelligent, we have a tremendous amount of things in common as far as likes and interests are concerned. But, she's just gone downhill as far as being absolutely thoughtless is concerned. I don't believe she really does it to be mean or does it intentionally, she just simply doesn't think about her lack of actions. When we talked last night at bedtime, she cried for over an hour, apologized profusely, and said she realized her apologies didn't mean anything because she's done this kind of thing so many times before - and she was 100% right, they didn't mean anything.
> 
> The shields are up, I'm not going to let myself get hurt again, and I'm trying to frame my head around that - I just don't see how any relationship can survive that for very long.
> 
> Thank you good people - you guys are very kind and I appreciate your advice very much.


Good luck, buddy. We're rooting for you.

Honestly, I hope things work out for you and the wife...I believe that you really love this woman, and it sounds like she loves you too...it just doesn't show sometimes.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

bild-a-loco said:


> Thanks for all the pep talks guys and gals - it really has been helpful today to make me feel better knowing others out there give a Natt Sass and shamefully, that I'm not alone in this mess.
> 
> I ordered the "No More Mr. Nice Guy" book earlier today off Amazon - that'll be my reading project next week - thanks for all the suggestions on books.
> 
> You guys have me convinced, it is time to pull the "180" and just stop trying, and see what happens. We're remodeling our house right now, should be done with it by August or September, and then we'll be putting it up for sale. If things aren't better or showing any signs of improvement by then, I will certainly consider the nuclear option before buying another house - as much as that absolutely sickens me, the logical side of what brain I still have remaining is beating me to death with the pros and cons of where I'm now at. Things have to improve or the rest of my life is going to be horrible.
> 
> And yes, the reason I'm so torn last night and today, and have been many times in the last half dozen years, is because I've been head-over-heels in love with this woman - not the woman she is now, but the woman she was when I met her and the woman she was for most of our years together. In all publically social aspects of our life, she's still the same person, but in our private lives, she's turned into a walking hurt locker.
> 
> She's pretty, she's intelligent, we have a tremendous amount of things in common as far as likes and interests are concerned. But, she's just gone downhill as far as being absolutely thoughtless is concerned. I don't believe she really does it to be mean or does it intentionally, she just simply doesn't think about her lack of actions. When we talked last night at bedtime, she cried for over an hour, apologized profusely, and said she realized her apologies didn't mean anything because she's done this kind of thing so many times before - and she was 100% right, they didn't mean anything.
> 
> The shields are up, I'm not going to let myself get hurt again, and I'm trying to frame my head around that - I just don't see how any relationship can survive that for very long.
> 
> Thank you good people - you guys are very kind and I appreciate your advice very much.


This almost feels like she is harboring some kind of resentment almost at an unconscious level... guarantee the 180 will force it to rise to the top for her to face it and get it resolved. Something is "blocking" who she used to be....


----------



## turnera

The first year my H and I were together, my birthday rolled around. Nothing. When I asked, he said he likes to be 'spontaneous' in gift giving and that he doesn't like to be 'told' when to have to give a gift to someone. 

Ok. Fair enough.

So when his birthday rolls around 6 months later, I did the same. You'd have thought I shot his mother. How dare I? I just shrugged and said 'you told me that the reason you didn't celebrate MY birthday is because you don't believe in it. I'm just climbing on the bandwagon.' He never (well, rarely) ever 'forgot' my birthday again.


----------



## turnera

bild-a-loco said:


> The shields are up, I'm not going to let myself get hurt again, and I'm trying to frame my head around that - I just don't see how any relationship can survive that for very long.


Did you tell her that? Did you tell her that you're considering not buying another house with her because you may be moving on? She most definitely needs to hear it.


----------



## warlock07

bild-a-loco said:


> Actually, wrong conclusions - she absolutely loves parties and gifts, so long as they're pertaining to her or are important to her. She's something akin to Martha Stewart in regards to throwing Christmas parties at our house - we usually have two or three each year and they're meticulously planned huge affairs (all planned and done by her) with loads of baking, fancy foods, and you name it.
> 
> Likewise, she volunteers to host parties for just about every person we've ever known (seemingly) who's having a baby shower or wedding shower or anything of that nature - she loves to travel, she loves to throw parties, she spends months planning her Christmas galas. My birthdays, however, always sneak up on without any notice whatsoever and take her completely by surprise. This doesn't occur with friend's birthdays or our daughter's birthdays, just mine.  And again, it's not just birthdays, it's pretty much anything to do with me. And yet, she insists it's not intentional, she loves me, and she can't stand the thought of being without me - I DO NOT understand!!??!!


Ok, this post makes the whole thing much worse. She is lying when she says that it isn't intentional. It is very intentional. A person who does all this stuff won't forget her H's b'day. Her reasons, i have no idea.


----------



## warlock07

bild-a-loco said:


> Wow. Thanks for all the posts. I really don't want to divorce her, we've been married 20 years and were together for half a dozen before that - I have practically my whole life invested in this woman. I will check into the books mentioned, yes, I've already been told I'm "empowering" her by continuing to be the "nice guy" by our counselor, but that's just the way I'm wired up - I'm not a wimp, I'm just a traditional Southern guy who was raised to treat the woman you love special.
> 
> I genuinely think she does love me, but she's just settled into an "old brown shoe" mode with me where I'm kinda' like a comfy pair of slippers - I'll be there whenever she needs me and she knows it. Our counselor, and me personally, have sat on the couch and told her that clearly, my "love language" is gifts and just simply thoughtful activities, and she's promised fifteen times (or more) to change her ways and turn things around. This has been going on, as I said for about the last five or six years. Granted, we're both older now, we have a seventeen-year-old daughter, work and real life are distractions, but geez, I deal with those just as much as she does and it hasn't stopped me.
> 
> As for the other questions raised, we're in trouble in just about every area of our relationship. We had a fantastic sex life until about five or six years ago, she "got religion" (literally) and then everything fun and adventurous was a sin to her, so our sex life is almost totally dead now. Yes, we've had a lot of counseling about that too and none of it seems to be getting through to her.
> 
> I'm kinda' to the point of doing what's been mentioned, just wanting to put up a complete wall to insulate myself from her and keep from being slammed repeatedly. That's not my nature though, so that in itself would take some self-training. I really don't want this to end in divorce, but honestly, I don't even want to go home right now, I'd rather just stay here at work and sleep at my desk. :loser:


I see the problem with OP now.


----------



## SunnyT

I agree with the shields.... I called them my "sh*t shields". I also agree that she's probably not doing this stuff on purpose. Somehow, you just lost your place on her list of priorities. 

I also agree with a time limit. I ended up doing that. I didn't quit doing things for my ex or with him..... I just quit going out of my way for him, or expecting anything, or if I suggested a night out and he said no, I'd go without him. I set up "family time" and would have to invite him, he'd decline. I couldn't MAKE him invested in us.... but I COULD learn to not let his crappiness wreck MY day, or my birthday, or my life......


----------



## Gabriel

DoF said:


> I get it. So basically don't be yourself and become a ****ty person towards her.
> 
> Sorry, completely disagree.
> 
> If she can't appreciate you for the good person that are OP, she is NOT the person you WANT to be with anyways.


Divorce happy much? Maybe we can help him try to work on the issue at hand first, rather than just giving up a decades long marriage right off the bat. Jesus.


----------



## warlock07

How do you know she is not cheating ? I'm curious.

99.99% percent of those that find their spouse cheating on them are shocked by that fact. 

The counselor using the word "empowering" was just her being nice to her client. She probably had much harsher words to describe the situation.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

"got religion??" (assumption is Christian)

I hope this is not why she "dried up" in sex... the Bible is VERY clear NOT to do that. That it puts the marriage in serious danger. 

Plus HE created it FOR PLEASURE.

not good... not good at all if this is the case


----------



## Gabriel

Unfortunately, I can relate somewhat to this thread, but in reverse. My wife went through a period where she barely acknowledged certain events (anniv, etc) because every year prior to that she would blow me out of the water when it came to gift exchanges.

I am not a very thoughtful person in that regard, or really in general, but not to the extent of OP's wife. 

Getting in her head for me is easy. It's a laziness/ procrastination combo, followed by a brief panic right before the event, followed by self-loathing afterward. I know the pattern well. It's hard to break it. I've done this many times, and when I am successful in breaking it, it's usually with spending too much $$ at the last minute, rather than a well thought out, time consuming gift.

My guess is OPs wife falls into this pattern, but is unable to save it at the end due to fear of spending the money, or running out of time. The more she does it, the more she hates herself. Trust me, I know. Her counselor should focus on this specific issue, and give her tactics to break the pattern. For example, she should put a reminder in her calendar, one month before the said event, and/or make sure the gift is purchased 10 days before the day she needs it. Some people aren't naturally thoughtful- but that doesn't mean they don't love you - it's just a flaw in THEM. There are ways for them to fix this, but it takes work and pattern-breaking habits. And probably some help.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Pattern interrupts are what I use with my horses which makes it dawn on me that that is exactly what the 180 is... a pattern interrupt


----------



## tom67

warlock07 said:


> How do you know she is not cheating ? I'm curious.
> 
> 99.99% percent of those that find their spouse cheating on them are shocked by that fact.
> 
> The counselor using the word "empowering" was just her being nice to her client. She probably had much harsher words to describe the situation.


I think we mentioned that here http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...elp-feeling-quite-taken-granted-hopeless.html

You have to look into it at least.


----------



## UsernameHere

bild-a-loco said:


> I ordered the "No More Mr. Nice Guy" book earlier today off Amazon - that'll be my reading project next week - thanks for all the suggestions on books.
> 
> You guys have me convinced, it is time to pull the "180" and just stop trying, and see what happens.


Loco I know how you feel. 

My wedding anniversary falls 1 day ahead of my birthday, and this year was especially important as it was my 50th Birthday and our 25th Wedding Anniversary. I was involved in advising what I liked for birthday plans, but like you I planned a lovely meal, flowers and gifts for our anniversary. 

On anniversary day…nothing. She opened her card, and thanked me for the flowers that evening. I didn't make too much fuss as I didn't want to put a dampener on the day before my birthday.

I mentioned a few days later that I was curious if she had forgotten, but was met with aggressive response, "why are you bothered about a card". The thing is, like you loco, I felt hurt as she dismissed the significance of the event and just focused on the card. She did the same last year as well, so it is a recurring theme, and we have had a few ups and downs since last September, where she is totally absorbed in her activities and less engaged with us as a couple.

I too am working through MMSLP and planning on getting my fitness and health better this year, hoping this may help.

I look forward to your thread updates to see if your 180 plan works. Good luck


----------



## russ101

My just recently ex-wife was exactly like yours for the last 5-6 years of my marriage. In fact, a couple of my birthdays she forgot altogether ( but I know she didn't forget her boyfriends, when I looked back at her phone records) A couple of years before we divorced I just learned to live with it and treat her in the same manner that she treated me on my birthday. Would get her a small present without much thought and stop off a the store and get a small cake. She didn't care for it much, but she really didn't have a leg to stand on if she wanted to complain about it. I hope your situation improves. If your wife doesn't make a big deal about your birthday, but she does for other events, that should tell you where you rank with her. I wish I had some good advice for you, but hang in there brother and take care of yourself. You are the only one responsible for your happiness.


----------



## bandit.45

I guess I have a darker opinion. Reading what OP has written regarding the lack of sex for the last six (6) years, the immersion into religion and essentially her ignoring every aspect of the marriage, my take is that she has checked out. She has checked out so far that she's not capable of coming back. 

Why does she cry? Because she no longer loves OP the way she should (if at all) and she is wracked with guilt. She knows what she has to do to change but she does not want it enough. Her mind tells her to be a good wife, remember his birthdays, be considerate of his feelings and treat him like a husband should be treated.... but her heart disagrees. Hence the inner turmoil. 

Bild-a-loco I think you need to absorb the possibility that your wife simply no longer loves you, and has not for six years at least. Women who are in love with their husbands cannot help but show it in their actions. Her actions show the opposite. 

No, she does not love you anymore. I think she likes you a lot, appreciates what you do for her, and is very fond of you as a companion and the mother of her child, but any romantic or warm-fuzzies that she may have felt the first half of the marriage are long, long gone. 

Time passes and people move on. Beliefs and values change over time. People evolve, and she has grown away from you unfortunately. 

I do not believe there is an affair going on. Actually an affair in some ways would be welcome in this case. Death of a marriage by affair is tragic, hurtful and sudden. At least with an affair you can divorce the offender without shame. That is better than the death of a marriage through slow apathy and malaise where the offender does not do anything outwardly to destroy the marriage, but rather starves the marriage to death through neglect and indifference.


----------



## SolidSnake

I think you are receiveing poor advice like "just divorce her," before you even understand the ways in which your own behaviors are contributing to the problem. 

Read NMMNG, take a look at the ways you may be encouraging and rewarding her behavior. I also recommend that you both read His Needs, Her Needs. 

If you are serious about possibly divorcing her in 2 months, I think she needs to know that information. 
If you change your behavior, do the 180 and that still has no impact, then consider divorce.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blonde

You mentioned you are dieting. Lose the weight. 

To me your actions came across as entitled and your response to the perceived slight was criticism and guilt tripping

TBH I'd be pretty miserable married to a fat ole critical dude with a huge chip on his shoulder... 

Would she go to Marriage Help Program For Couples with you?


----------



## lifeistooshort

bandit.45 said:


> I guess I have a darker opinion. Reading what OP has written regarding the lack of sex for the last six (6) years, the immersion into religion and essentially her ignoring every aspect of the marriage, my take is that she has checked out. She has checked out so far that she's not capable of coming back.
> 
> Why does she cry? Because she no longer loves OP the way she should (if at all) and she is wracked with guilt. She knows what she has to do to change but she does not want it enough. Her mind tells her to be a good wife, remember his birthdays, be considerate of his feelings and treat him like a husband should be treated.... but her heart disagrees. Hence the inner turmoil.
> 
> Bild-a-loco I think you need to absorb the possibility that your wife simply no longer loves you, and has not for six years at least. Women who are in love with their husbands cannot help but show it in their actions. Her actions show the opposite.
> 
> No, she does not love you anymore. I think she likes you a lot, appreciates what you do for her, and is very fond of you as a companion and the mother of her child, but any romantic or warm-fuzzies that she may have felt the first half of the marriage are long, long gone.
> 
> Time passes and people move on. Beliefs and values change over time. People evolve, and she has grown away from you unfortunately.
> 
> I do not believe there is an affair going on. Actually an affair in some ways would be welcome in this case. Death of a marriage by affair is tragic, hurtful and sudden. At least with an affair you can divorce the offender without shame. That is better than the death of a marriage through slow apathy and malaise where the offender does not do anything outwardly to destroy the marriage, but rather starves the marriage to death through neglect and indifference.



The tears might have nothing to do with guilt, they could simply be to shut him up. My mom employs this tactic regularly; when she doesn't like where the conversation is going she'll cry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

lifeistooshort said:


> The tears might have nothing to do with guilt, they could simply be to shut him up. My mom employs this tactic regularly; when she doesn't like where the conversation is going she'll cry.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Could be. Could be.


----------



## Openminded

lifeistooshort said:


> The tears might have nothing to do with guilt, they could simply be to shut him up. My mom employs this tactic regularly; when she doesn't like where the conversation is going she'll cry.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree. Men often don't realize how some women use tears to manipulate them.


----------



## 1971

Loco

We share a similar story but it was my 40th birthday. After crying myself to sleep that night I decided I needed to change. Three years on I no longer put myself last. I have two children 11 and 9 so I'm not prepared to move on just yet. But it will happen.

I look after me first, my children don't miss out on anything but sometimes they need to learn to wait their turn. I workout most days, 3-4 of those days with a trainer. I go out regularly with my friends, I do what I want to do.

I won't lie our relationship hasn't changed but I feel so much better, there are days when I still don't feel great but overall it's much more positive.

Put yourself first become a new man. 

I think you should consider moving on. Change is hard but it will be worth it.

.


----------



## turnera

1971 said:


> Loco
> 
> We share a similar story but it was my 40th birthday. After crying myself to sleep that night I decided I needed to change. Three years on I no longer put myself last. I have two children 11 and 9 so I'm not prepared to move on just yet. But it will happen.
> 
> I look after me first, my children don't miss out on anything but sometimes they need to learn to wait their turn. .


SO true. There's an amazing little but powerful book for men called Hold On To Your N.U.T.S. that talks about exactly this. And why it's so important.

Hold on to Your N.U.T.s: The Relationship Manual for Men by Wayne M. Levine | 9780979054402 | Paperback | Barnes & Noble


----------



## 2ntnuf

Only part I disagree with is that one should stray and it is better. I think, you read the book and do the work turnera posted. Give that a shot and see how it works. 

It's very painful to go through a 50th birthday with no celebration at all. I did it, due to my circumstances. It was hard. 

On the other hand, she has definitely fallen out of love with you. I think it's your job to find out if you can bring that love back. I think you should put a time limit on it. Talk with her about it. Be gentle, but firm. Know what you want and tell her. Neither you nor she deserves to be in such a circumstance. 

The marriage and your love and respect for each other, do deserve an honest effort. It hurt to read your opening post, but I can understand after reading so many others, how your wife might feel. I'm sorry for you both.


----------



## Enginerd

Time to shake things up. You're way too predicable and uninteresting to her. Hopefully you don't spend hours hovering over your train set with an engineer hat on. That is not attractive on a 50 year old.

Try this. Take her out a few times and do things she likes. Date her for a while, but don't ask for or expect sex. Then if she doesn't turn around after several weeks you need to start acting indifferent to her. You will always be nice, but you could care less about her activities and ask nothing of her. Meanwhile do something that gets you out of the house. Stop keeping reqular hours coming home from work. Plan a weekend away without her if you can. Do your own cooking or eat out alone on the way home. Do your own laundry and cleaning, but not hers. Stop doing the honey-do list completely. Start living for yourself. You deserve it. Even if it doesn't work you're well on your way to living independently which what is required after divorce. The point of all this is to wake her up and avoid divorce. It worked for me but it took months. My wife actually said she didn't realize what she had but it took several attempts with each being a bit more outside of my typical behavior.


----------



## 1971

turnera said:


> SO true. There's an amazing little but powerful book for men called Hold On To Your N.U.T.S. that talks about exactly this. And why it's so important.
> 
> Hold on to Your N.U.T.s: The Relationship Manual for Men by Wayne M. Levine | 9780979054402 | Paperback | Barnes & Noble



Thanks but I'm actually FEMALE

.


----------



## Happyfamily

bild-a-loco said:


> I don't believe she really does it to be mean or does it intentionally, she just simply doesn't think about her lack of actions. When we talked last night at bedtime, she cried for over an hour, apologized profusely, and said she realized her apologies didn't mean anything because she's done this kind of thing so many times before - and she was 100% right, they didn't mean anything.


Oh I see this in women I've known. 

On the 20th time in a row that they do the same thing and pull the drama routine afterwards, the guy finally wises up.

The most cunning one I knew would figure out some little way to sabotage things. For example, he disliked peas. So of course she made peas. Why, the meal _demanded_ peas. Who in their right mind would serve anything except peas with this meal? And look how I can't do anything right - I did all this stuff for you, cooked this wonderful meal, and all you can say is "why did you make peas?" Boo hoo hoo...

That's what you want, right? Both the absence of what you specifically request and an overwhelming presence of drama instead. You don't want to play with a new train. You want hours and hours of tears and anguish.


----------



## heartsbeating

bandit.45 said:


> No, she does not love you anymore. I think she likes you a lot, appreciates what you do for her, and is very fond of you as a companion and the mother of her child, but any romantic or warm-fuzzies that she may have felt the first half of the marriage are long, long gone.


My thoughts were similar when reading this. 

It sounds as though she's just not that into you. The emotional response and words she offers, as a repeated pattern, and without any change in action from her to demonstrate that you are a priority - speaks much louder than the tears. Her actions aren't changing. 

It's time to change your own actions and behavior.


----------



## turnera

If you build train landscapes, you could join a local chapter where you become one of the stops during a model railroad club open house; your wife could be the 'hostess'


----------



## turnera

1971 said:


> Thanks but I'm actually FEMALE
> 
> .


That was for loco.


----------



## bandit.45

I wasn't going to say it but others already have: Guys who are heavy into model trains are like the High Priesthood of the Nerd Cult. 

Not attractive. Ditch the toy trains and buy a sportscar. Take her out on dates. Maybe what she wants is a boyfriend, not a husband.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## heartsbeating

Just some thoughts based on what you have shared ...were you supportive of the changes she was making in her life a few years back? Have you been clinging to the ideal of who she was rather than the person she was becoming? And the celebrations you throw for her - are they from a genuine place? 

Either way, your actions need to change and you may be surprised at what you learn about yourself. 


Furthermore.... wishing you a wonderful 50th year!


----------



## Iver

This is a tough one. Firstly, you mentioned a teenage daughter living at home with you. Any other children? 

Will your daughter be going off to school or some such soon? I'm asking because a divorce will be easier if child custody is not an issue.

Are there any other examples of your wife neglecting you? I'm also curious if you take vacations together or if she also avoids that with you.

Do you both work full time jobs as well?

Lastly, what religious group did she get into that means no more hanky-panky with her husband? Did the neglect start at the same time as the religious "cooling - off" period?


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## WorkingOnMe

bandit.45 said:


> I wasn't going to say it but others already have: Guys who are heavy into model trains are like the High Priesthood of the Nerd Cult.
> 
> Not attractive. Ditch the toy trains and buy a sportscar. Take her out on dates. Maybe what she wants is a boyfriend, not a husband.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Seriously. Listen to this. I recently bought a new BMW motorcycle. They're not that expensive. And you wouldn't believe the number of women who comment and flirt. Just yesterday I stopped into a client's office and the office gals were commenting "oh, that's YOUR bike that I see parked downtown all the time". A couple weeks ago a friend of my wife's was commenting about it and how her dad collected BMW motorcycles and how she and her son had been admiring it and just recently saw that it was me riding it. That's the kind of thing you want your wife to see. MMSLP talks about it, being validated by an outside female and how it affects your wife's feelings for you.

It's important not to go too far though. A fat 50 year old on a harley works. But in a Ferrari, it just screams insecure mid life crises.


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## heartsbeating

I think also invest in some Wolverine claws and a leather jacket to go with the motorcycle.


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## WorkingOnMe

heartsbeating said:


> I think also invest in some Wolverine claws and a leather jacket to go with the motorcycle.


Hell yes! I highly recommend Dainese for leather.


----------



## murphy5

those are great ideas. Take all the money that you would have wasted on your ungrateful wife, and buy a new bike! She will get the message that something has changed.


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## Theseus

bild-a-loco said:


> Wow. Thanks for all the posts. I really don't want to divorce her, we've been married 20 years and were together for half a dozen before that - I have practically my whole life invested in this woman.


That's known as the "sunk cost trap". It's a well known problem in business, but it applies to relationships too. 

ING eZonomics | Money and your life | the sunk cost trap

CUTTING YOUR LOSSES: HOW TO AVOID THE SUNK COST TRAP - Ivey Business Journal



> _our sex life is almost totally dead now. Yes, we've had a lot of counseling about that too and none of it seems to be getting through to her. _


What are you getting out of this relationship?



> _I'm kinda' to the point of doing what's been mentioned, just wanting to put up a complete wall to insulate myself from her and keep from being slammed repeatedly._


That treating the symptom, not curing the problem.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Or buy a boat and take your kid fishing every weekend leaving the old lady at home by herself.


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## frusdil

Like Gabriel I too am shocked at the number of "get a divorce" posts. Holy sh it balls! This is a decades long marriage!

OP, I truly feel sad for you. It must have crushed you, the way you were treated on your 50th - a huge milestone. And the other times too. I'm so sorry  That would hurt me terribly if I were in that position.

You've GOT to tell your wife how serious this is. She has no idea how bad things are because you keep on going. She still gets lavished with gifts and attention regardless. You say it hurts you, and get upset but then you turn around and put on a huge party for her so your words don't mean anything. 

She needs to know just how serious this is. You need to tell her that you're considering not buying a house with her - August is only a few weeks away now. Lay it all out there - her entire life as she knows it, her family, her home is at serious risk. I bet that'll give her the jolt she needs.

She's your wife. She deserves the chance to make it right.


----------



## Theseus

Blonde said:


> You mentioned you are dieting. Lose the weight.
> 
> To me your actions came across as entitled and your response to the perceived slight was criticism and guilt tripping
> 
> TBH I'd be pretty miserable married to a fat ole critical dude with a huge chip on his shoulder...


*WOW*. Perceived slight? And you're focused on his weight gain?

Are you even reading the same thread as the rest of us???


----------



## WorkingOnMe

IMHO a 50th birthday present is too big a deal to leave up to my wife. You can bet your ass that I'll be buying my own gift for that one. She can chip in a tank of gas if she wants.


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## Thundarr

bild-a-loco said:


> Sorry to rant. Needed a place to vent. If I sound like a spoiled brat, I apologize. I'm not expecting a new Jaguar or something like that for every occasion, I would just appreciate some recognition that I have worth and am thought about - she seems incapable of that now.


Venting is good sometimes. 

I think she's got some internal struggles going on. Maybe even some resentment toward you whether it's deserved or not. She's likely going through menopause now but her big push toward religion a few years back is another sign that she was questioning life and struggling psychologically. My naive guess is that she's having a hard time dealing with getting older thinks that life was supposed to be different than it is.

Do you have kids and grand kids? Any major life trauma like her parent recently die? Give us more information to work with Mr Train. By the way, that's cool hobby.


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## Catherine602

WorkingOnMe said:


> Seriously. Listen to this. I recently bought a new BMW motorcycle. They're not that expensive. And you wouldn't believe the number of women who comment and flirt. Just yesterday I stopped into a client's office and the office gals were commenting "oh, that's YOUR bike that I see parked downtown all the time". A couple weeks ago a friend of my wife's was commenting about it and how her dad collected BMW motorcycles and how she and her son had been admiring it and just recently saw that it was me riding it. That's the kind of thing you want your wife to see. MMSLP talks about it, being validated by an outside female and how it affects your wife's feelings for you.
> 
> It's important not to go too far though. A fat 50 year old on a harley works. But in a Ferrari, it just screams insecure mid life crises.


LOL you are on a roll. Too right about the Harley Vs. Ferrari. There are distinct bike cultures. 

Ducati - urbane, independent, sophisticated. BMW - tasteful, understated power and wealth, good looking. Ninja bikes - demons of speed and daring, very young, crazy, acrobatics. Harley - raw, bike clubs, group trips, loud, showy, jack boots, greasy bike parts all over the place, dirt under nails that won't come out no matter what, dirty leather jackets with crazy club emblems. 

You have to decide who you want to be. I know about Harley's because my husband has about 3. Or should I say parts from 3 bikes. I think it makes up about 1.5 bikes. Maybe. I have to wait till he and his brother put them back together and machine new parts. 

I believe they think they can get two bikes. I'm betting there is not enough parts to go around and one of them is going to come up short. :=\ anywhooo he is super hot when he smells like used bike parts and man sweat. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 2ntnuf

Indians are expensive, but I found the guys who ride them to be those who have the money to spend. They are nice motorcycles. You'll have to ask around or hang out where the different motorcycle model riders go and talk, listen and learn.


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## tom67

WorkingOnMe said:


> IMHO a 50th birthday present is too big a deal to leave up to my wife. You can bet your ass that I'll be buying my own gift for that one. She can chip in a tank of gas if she wants.


----------



## soccermom2three

1. I'm sorry this happened to you, OP. I know what's it is like to have your spouse forget or not care about special dates. My husband isn't a big "celebrator" and last year he forgot our anniversary. It felt crappy. 

2. I agree that it sounds like she's checked out.

3. I agree the crying is manipulation.

4. I must be the only woman that doesn't care about men and their motorcycles. I guess my husband has told me too many gruesome stories of the accidents he has seen.


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## MrsDraper

I just wanted to post and say that from the OP's initial posting, it does not appear that the wife "blew off" his birthday. He said he does not want or like big celebrations in subsequent posts, and even notes that his wife seemed at a loss as to what to do for him. However, he felt that she should have known that he wanted a toy train - because, you know - most wives are mind readers!

I'm going to let everyone here on a little secret. We are not mind readers. And if you watch any of the old shows where people had awesome secretaries to help them with this stuff - yeah, that doesn't happen much either. What a nice perk that had to have been!! :-(

So your wife did a small intimate party and cake. But she forgot the train toy. That is about right, isn't it? 

My thoughts (as a wife who admittedly struggles with this sort of thing)... it seems like she did go through the trouble to have people there for your birthday and to order a cake. It seems like she wanted the celebration to be a special time for you - otherwise, why would she have gone through the effort? 

The problem is that you didn't get what you wanted. She may have been married to you for many years, but I'm going to reach here and guess she isn't a mind reader. Most spouses are not (this goes both ways), and they get slammed for it. 

If you want the toy train for your 50th, hike up your pull ups and go get the train toy. Tell her you got it and that you splurged for your 50th. Help her make mental notes. Stop making it all about your wife and how she _didn't do anything for you_ - because that is false. In your post, you are basically say that she did nothing, which is unfair - _she did do something. _ She was thinking about you, and tried to plan a party that met your wishes but allowed your family to also celebrate this event in your life. You realize you tied her hands in this, right? But she still did it. So focus on that. She tried. In reality, the festivities just were not what you wanted. 

What I can say this with certainty: I'm sorry the party and celebration was a let down. 50 years is a big mile marker. I'm sure it wasn't an intentional dig. Some people are better at birthdays / anniversaries / holidays than others.


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## 2ntnuf

Read this over again. It's very important, and why I and others were suggesting, maybe a boat or something? Not a speed boat, but something nice you can use for fishing and for a day out in the sun, on the water with a cold drink and a nice time, or something totally different, might be best. Don't run out in anger and buy a motorcycle.



> I guess my husband has told me too many gruesome stories of the accidents he has seen.


----------



## bandit.45

Motorcycle! Get one! Tomorrow!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Voltaire2013

tom67 said:


>


I thought my wife blew my 40th, small family gathering and some minor gifts. I was livid and was planning my own celebration. Little did I know she 'rented' half my local watering hole (very big local sports bar) but had to wait for a day that was open. I couldn't figure out why all my friends would have an odd smile as I told them of my disappointment until a week later when I was tricked into a surprise party with about 50 friends, we all had a blast.

Good on her, but I still think the party I was planning would have been epic. Maybe you should plan your own? Go all out. I'd say forget to invite her, but that's passive aggressive. ;-)

Cheers,
V(13)


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## WorkingOnMe

2ntnuf said:


> Read this over again. It's very important, and why I and others were suggesting, maybe a boat or something? Not a speed boat, but something nice you can use for fishing and for a day out in the sun, on the water with a cold drink and a nice time, or something totally different, might be best. Don't run out in anger and buy a motorcycle.



The danger is what makes it exciting. A fishing boat? Come on. Next he'll be getting an rv. :lame:


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## soccermom2three

WorkingOnMe said:


> The danger is what makes it exciting. A fishing boat? Come on. Next he'll be getting an rv. :lame:


It definitely depends on the boat. My husband used to race a drag boat. That was pretty hot. Especially when he when he was wearing his Lifeline suit.


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## Catherine602

Pleeese No boats. How many admiring eyes are scanning the horizon for a cabin cruiser?? He might as well name the thing The Minnow and get lost because that's how much it will improve his self-confidence.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## heartsbeating

I've a feeling 50 is gonna be a hell of a year for Bild.


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## heartsbeating

We viewed a house for sale that had a train thing set up and I have to say, I exclaimed, "Oh cool!" And rushed straight to it to check it out. I'm a geek though. Nothing wrong with trains.

In saying that, I got hubs a race car track experience and he did look damn sexy in his helmet and race suit.


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## Thundarr

All of this talk of motorcycles. Mrs Thundarr's in trouble now.


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## bandit.45

Motorcycles!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602

It was important to him so it should have been important to her. People talk endlessly about making sacrifices for ones partner or at the very lest paying them some special attention by doing what makes them happy. 

It that belief a principled one or just one that is pulled out when it's convenient. The man wanted special recognition for the half-century mark from the woman he loves and committed to. 

What's wrong with that? He is not being a cry baby. He being human. In a sense we are all cry babies about some things. I want to be the center of attention on my BD. 

I think the cornerstone of a happy relationship is simply paying attention. Give some room in your mind for the person you love. I think his wife should have gone out of her way to make the day a show of love and appreciation. That's what people do when they love and care. 

I think all of his wife's BD celebrations should be perfunctory too and the anniversary celebrated with a card at the 11th hr. I don't know if it's passive-aggressive or if he would be giving as much as he gets and then feel less put upon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Theseus

MrsDraper said:


> I just wanted to post and say that from the OP's initial posting, it does not appear that the wife "blew off" his birthday. He said he does not want or like big celebrations in subsequent posts, and even notes that his wife seemed at a loss as to what to do for him. However, he felt that she should have known that he wanted a toy train - because, you know - most wives are mind readers!
> 
> I'm going to let everyone here on a little secret. We are not mind readers.


But you can read words can't you? So why did you miss this part of the OP's description?:

* I discussed about a dozen possible gifts I'd like when she asked about them, told her where they could be gotten and how much they should cost. And once again, she did absolutely nothing except pick up a cake on the way home from work at the local grocery store. 
...
She told me last night she's "scared to buy me a present because she's scared she'll get the wrong thing." After I've given her a list, literally, of things I would like and places where they can be bought? So instead of getting the "wrong thing" the answer is to get nothing at all? *



> _My thoughts (as a wife who admittedly struggles with this sort of thing)... it seems like she did go through the trouble to have people there for your birthday and to order a cake. It seems like she wanted the celebration to be a special time for you - otherwise, why would she have gone through the effort? _


What effort??? All she did was pick up a cake from the grocery store.



> _If you want the toy train for your 50th, hike up your pull ups and go get the train toy. Tell her you got it and that you splurged for your 50th. _


Holy cow, it's not often I see someone who is so little empathy and understanding about what is going on. 

Heck, why celebrate birthdays at all if we are just supposed to buy our own gifts? 

Anyway, you obsessively mention the "train toy" four times in your response. I'll be a mind reader myself and assume the OP doesn't really care about the toy train. That was only one example of a gift, since his wife seemed to have trouble coming up with an idea of her own. I'm sure the OP would have been happy with just about any gift that signified some actual *EFFORT* on his wife's part. The gesture here is what is important, not the monetary value. All he wants is some sign that she actually cares about him, and he's not getting that.


----------



## jld

intheory said:


> I don't get people dissing being into model trains. I think that is great. Do you have the set-up in the basement with the "landscape" and so forth. Awesome - I'm jealous. Go out and buy yourself some really cool new pieces.


:iagree:

Nothing wrong with being into model trains. I think it's cool, too.

You don't have to impress anyone, OP. Just get yourself something that pleases _you._ 

My husband is not big on birthdays, anniversaries, or holidays. Part of it is that he does not care about getting anything himself. I am sure he does not realize it is Father's Day on Sunday.

I could be hurt over this, and sometimes am. For my 40th, we were living in India, and he was travelling from the US to India that day. He was delayed by the volcano in Iceland (remember that from four years ago?) So the "gift" was that he made it home at all on my birthday. We did not even go out to eat, and it had not occurred to him to get me a present.

I was a little disappointed, but at least he made it back to India safely.

Sometimes we just have to count our blessings, OP.


----------



## Hicks

It's a big mistake to have hour long conversations where she is crying and apologizing. You are trying to exact revenge or something. It's way more powerful to simply give her the choice of what kind of wife she wants to be. And leave her to decide.


----------



## bild-a-loco

Wow, this post grew legs overnight! Thanks again to everyone for the interest and advice. 

To clear up something right off the bat, I collect pre-WWII (preferably pre-WWI) electric trains. Please see my avatar, that's the kind of stuff I'm into. These aren't typical model trains, I don't have a big layout anywhere, and I don't sit around with an engineer's hat on laboring over fake shrubs and junk like that. These things are big, they're heavy, they were high-voltage children's toys and are typically dangerous as hell (can't believe kids used to play with these things). Most of my collection is in storage, with just a small number of the better pieces on display in my very small man cave/computer room. Eventually I am planning to build a track layout to regularly run these things on, but it's not going to be anything like a model train layout, more like what you would've seen on somebody's living room floor circa 1935. The "model train" crowd frightens me as well - not into that scene, have gone to train shows before and I always leave mortified at most of the guys there. So, that's me with trains. I'm a major history nerd, I also collect antique guns and militaria as well, so it's not just trains. Wife collects victorian silver and china - we both have our collecting vices. 

I'm not fat! I'm 5'11" and I weigh 200 pounds - I'm just trying to get back to the 170 pounds I weighed most of my life. I had gotten up to 210 over the last few years and wanted to put the brakes on that business before things got any worse. Wifey has gained just as much weight through the years as I have, but I'd not call her fat either, we're just older and weigh a little more than we used to. 

I'm not really into motorcycles - sorry. I work for an automotive publishing company and I've had a lot of muscle cars through the years, so that's more of my style, but I'm more into street rods and rat rods now - if you don't know what a rat rod is, google it, they're cool. I used to work on restoring WWII warbirds and have flown in a large number of vintage airplanes, as has she.

Vacations, dating, doing all that stuff - yes, we've had a lot of major trips through the years, we were still working in date nights too, but admittedly, those have been hard to find time for in recent years, but, we do what we can. 

Too soon for any major updates really, we talked a little more last night, she cried again, suggested we go to New Orleans next weekend and have dinner and a night out - which she suggested several times before my birthday. I told her then, as I did last night, I DO NOT want to go to New Orleans and have a fancy dinner and waste all that money doing so - that's the kind of thing she really likes, not me. I don't enjoy having long fancy dinners, and I don't want to spend a bunch of money on a fancy hotel when, given the track record of the last couple years, all we're going to do is sleep in it - I can do that at home. The criteria I suggested to her for a party, when she asked a good while before the birthday, was that I would like maybe something with my friends, without food, at a place we could hang out, have some laughs, play some semi-raunchy party games, and just have a fun evening - I'm not trying to be a bastard, but that's not hard to figure out. Still, she returned once more last night to the same plan I've already said five or six times that I DIDN'T want to do. And, she cried some more. 

Not looking forward to the weekend, but, I'm feeling better today thanks to you good people. I am going to look after myself and stop pandering to her - if she wants a change, she'll have to demonstrate she does. If she doesn't, then I'll live with that and get on with my life. I hate the sound of that, but I'm not prepared to live whatever years I have remaining being miserable. I've had enough, and I'm hoping the actions of the coming months will wake her up and reboot our relationship. If not, then I'll cross that bridge when it arrives. 

Thanks everyone, and hope ya'll are having a better day wherever you may be. Take care.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Is she introverted...

Is she big on ambiance?


----------



## WorkingOnMe

I hope you actually told her the part about not wanting a fancy hotel when all you would do is sleep in it. You need to say that stuff to her. It's passive agressive not to.


----------



## turnera

I suggest therapy in which you two model empathy for each other. Have her actually have to face you, look you in the eyes, and mirror back what you say to her. She's not hearing it, she likely needs practice in getting outside her own head and actually HEARING what you say. Best done in therapy.


----------



## Gabriel

WorkingOnMe said:


> I hope you actually told her the part about not wanting a fancy hotel when all you would do is sleep in it. You need to say that stuff to her. It's passive agressive not to.


:iagree::iagree:

This


----------



## Iver

You were 170 and now are 200? Is most of your weight around your waist? I'm asking because some people can carry extra weight and some people (me) simply can't. 

Look, I know this is shallow but do you think this is a problem for her? For example did the cooling off period start around the time the weight increased?


----------



## Tall Average Guy

bild-a-loco said:


> Too soon for any major updates really, we talked a little more last night, she cried again, suggested we go to New Orleans next weekend and have dinner and a night out - which she suggested several times before my birthday. I told her then, as I did last night, I DO NOT want to go to New Orleans and have a fancy dinner and waste all that money doing so - that's the kind of thing she really likes, not me. I don't enjoy having long fancy dinners, and I don't want to spend a bunch of money on a fancy hotel when, given the track record of the last couple years, all we're going to do is sleep in it - I can do that at home. The criteria I suggested to her for a party, when she asked a good while before the birthday, was that I would like maybe something with my friends, without food, at a place we could hang out, have some laughs, play some semi-raunchy party games, and just have a fun evening - I'm not trying to be a bastard, but that's not hard to figure out. Still, she returned once more last night to the same plan I've already said five or six times that I DIDN'T want to do. And, she cried some more.


Then tell her no thanks and go an plan a get together on your own. She won't do it (for whatever reason) and at some point, expecting her to do it now is unhealthy for you. You are letting her determine your happiness. Not a good place to be.

Plan the party you want and make it happen.


----------



## Iver

One more comment.

I'd consider doing some very discrete checking to make sure thier isn't an OM hiding under the bed. (VAR in her car, key logger)

I don't think it's likely but it would explain a lot unfortunately.

Think of it as "due diligence" kind of like a termite inspection. You don't expect to find anything but you want to be thorough.


----------



## Happyfamily

bild-a-loco said:


> Still, she returned once more last night to the same plan I've already said five or six times that I DIDN'T want to do. And, she cried some more.


I'm tellin' ya - this is a pathology I have seen myself.

Husband's business associate and wife go to pizza with us. He picks the peppers off his pizza. I make a mental note - Dude doesn't like peppers. Never serve them when they're over. Nobody had to tell me.

We go over to their house. What's for dinner? Stuffed green peppers. I hear her say in the kitchen "but you LIKE stuffed green peppers." 

I don't know what to call it, but the guy does not like green peppers and he does not like drama, especially when people are over. So guess what he got. 

You know what she's going to get? An affair.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Happyfamily said:


> I'm tellin' ya - this is a pathology I have seen myself.
> 
> Husband's business associate and wife go to pizza with us. He picks the peppers off his pizza. I make a mental note - Dude doesn't like peppers. Never serve them when they're over. Nobody had to tell me.
> 
> We go over to their house. What's for dinner? Stuffed green peppers. I hear her say in the kitchen "but you LIKE stuffed green peppers."
> 
> I don't know what to call it, but the guy does not like green peppers and he does not like drama, especially when people are over. So guess what he got.
> 
> You know what she's going to get? An affair.


Narcissistic Personality Disorder

its why I asked about the introversion or ambiance

my mother will absolutely refuses to eat anywhere that doesn't have proper "ambiance" regardless of the food quality. My H and I took her and my step dad out for birthday dinners and to an awesome seafood restaurant, but because the ambiance wasn't right they walked out.... EVEN THOUGH it was our gift. I didn't realize she had gotten that bad about it. I thought she had some decorum about food consideration... nope... walked out of a birthday gift for improper ambiance.


----------



## MarriedTex

bild-a-loco said:


> Wow, this post grew legs overnight! Thanks again to everyone for the interest and advice.
> 
> 
> Too soon for any major updates really, we talked a little more last night, she cried again, suggested we go to New Orleans next weekend and have dinner and a night out - which she suggested several times before my birthday. I told her then, as I did last night, I DO NOT want to go to New Orleans and have a fancy dinner and waste all that money doing so - that's the kind of thing she really likes, not me. I don't enjoy having long fancy dinners, and I don't want to spend a bunch of money on a fancy hotel when, given the track record of the last couple years, all we're going to do is sleep in it - I can do that at home. The criteria I suggested to her for a party, when she asked a good while before the birthday, was that I would like maybe something with my friends, without food, at a place we could hang out, have some laughs, play some semi-raunchy party games, and just have a fun evening - I'm not trying to be a bastard, but that's not hard to figure out. Still, she returned once more last night to the same plan I've already said five or six times that I DIDN'T want to do. And, she cried some more.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks everyone, and hope ya'll are having a better day wherever you may be. Take care.


In your other thread from January, you talked about how your wife scotched an earlier trip to New Orleans that you had been planning in favor or your daughters' piano competition. My hunch is that you did make a big deal about it at the time, she felt guilty about it and she's trying to make up for her past transgression by pushing the issue this time. 

Now that she wants to do New Orleans, suddenly the idea of going there becomes "her idea." Have you ever thought that your past behaviors may play a role in how she treats you. You defer and deflect a lot on what you desire to have. That's a habit that comes from being the family martyr. I understand that. 

The thing is, she understands it, too. She knows that the family dynamic is that you will "su*ck it up" and defer your interests in favor of hers. The New Orleans deal from January was probably one of the few times that you were "honest" with her in terms of what you wanted to do. She is taking that scrap of honesty and trying to push it, interpreting that this is something that you really want. She's trying to do that in response. Now, your mind is telling you that New Orleans is "too little, too late" or you have somehow rationalized to yourself that it's not a big deal anyway. Perhaps that was way you got through disappointment.

Anyway, this is long way of saying that some of the blame here rests at your feet. It seems you have not established a pattern of being "authentic" in communicating what you want. She has a hard time reading you because you have made a lifelong profession of being the "sacrificer" for everyone else's benefit. 

When you actually tell her something that you want, your relationship track record throws her senses off kilter. She thinks to herself "Is that something that he wants or just something he says he wants to pacify me?" She's paralyzed to the point of inaction because the mixed signals she receives from you. 

You get treated poorly because you are inconsistent. Most of the time you deflect and defer because that's the "southern gentleman" thing to do. But then you get all pizzy on the few times you do communicate your needs and she doesn't recognize that honesty for what it is.

Most definitely she needs to put in more effort. But, ya know, at some point it just is easier for her to let you play the role of martyr. 

My suggestion is working with her to make a clean break from the past. Acknowledge that you've done a poor job in communicating your needs over time, leading relationship to state it is in now. Pledge to be authentic from here on out. You won't make many requests, but when you do - you'll mean them. You listen to her needs and she listens to yours without being handcuffed by your interpretations shaped by your past actions.

If you can't create a clean slate, your only other options are agreeing that the marriage should end or continue living in misery.

In short, pledge to be authentic. Stop being a martyr. You're only hurting yourself.


----------



## Happyfamily

Blossom Leigh said:


> Narcissistic Personality Disorder
> 
> its why I asked about the introversion or ambiance
> 
> my mother will absolutely refuses to eat anywhere that doesn't have proper "ambiance" regardless of the food quality. My H and I took her and my step dad out for birthday dinners and to an awesome seafood restaurant, but because the ambiance wasn't right they walked out.... EVEN THOUGH it was our gift. I didn't realize she had gotten that bad about it. I thought she had some decorum about food consideration... nope... walked out of a birthday gift for improper ambiance.


Oh my God, yes. 

I called this being a "food snob", for lack of better terminology. The main gig seems to be ruining it for everyone else over stupid crap like "authenticity". It isn't _authentic_ Thai, Japanese, Mexican, or whatever it is.

Well if you want authentic Thai food then pop some grasshoppers or squirmy bugs in your mouth and have your food served on a banana leaf on the floor in front of you. 

*MarriedTex* seems to indicate there's more history here that might be important. We have to own up to our role in any of this for sure...


----------



## Blonde

Have her read the thread and tell you who she agrees with.

I doubt her parties are raunchy with no food. As a religious person, I would hate planning a raunchy, "no food" party.

As a religious person, she would probably feel guilty being unhappy with your M and unlikely to pull the plug herself.

Just remember where ever you go, there you are. (And you sound like a very unhappy person)


----------



## LongWalk

Your hobby is cool. Metal is in a different league than plastic trains. The model rail building need not be boring. You can create a whole fictional world , complete with couples having sex in the park... Ok, it is nerdy. Stick to Worldof Warcraft

I recommend that you read two threads:

1) Bagdon 
2) neuklas

Re: divorce
Inside yourself you should accept that divorce is a possible resolution. When you are frustrated tell yourself that the track will split, and lead you either to a happier marriage or freedom.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## aug

LongWalk said:


> Your hobby is cool. Metal is in a different league than plastic trains. The model rail building need not be boring. You can create a whole fictional world , complete with couples having sex in the park... Ok, it is nerdy. Stick to Worldof Warcraft
> 
> I recommend that you read two threads:
> 
> 1) Bagdon
> 2) neuklas
> 
> Re: divorce
> Inside yourself you should accept that divorce is a possible resolution. When you are frustrated tell yourself that *the track will split*, and lead you either to a happier marriage or freedom.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_



I get it.


----------



## 2ntnuf

I seriously doubt it's the train hobby. Nothing wrong with trains, except, like other's have said, it's a one person hobby and it depends on how much time you spend with your wife outside of the hobby and what you do to have fun with her, show her respect and love. 

Lots of people have trains and still have a good marriage. I don't think you really understand what your wife needs. Seems to me she is just frustrated because she doesn't know how to please you and she wants to badly. She also, just wants to be happy and do things that make her happy, like having these parties. 

It seems like a communication problem and neither of you know how to broach the subject. She seems afraid to try anything. She seems like she has pretty much given up trying, even though she doesn't want to give up.


----------



## spunkycat08

bild-a-loco said:


> Wow. Thanks for all the posts. I really don't want to divorce her, we've been married 20 years and were together for half a dozen before that - I have practically my whole life invested in this woman. I will check into the books mentioned, yes, I've already been told I'm "empowering" her by continuing to be the "nice guy" by our counselor, but that's just the way I'm wired up - I'm not a wimp, I'm just a traditional Southern guy who was raised to treat the woman you love special.
> 
> I genuinely think she does love me, but she's just settled into an "old brown shoe" mode with me where I'm kinda' like a comfy pair of slippers - I'll be there whenever she needs me and she knows it. Our counselor, and me personally, have sat on the couch and told her that clearly, my "love language" is gifts and just simply thoughtful activities, and she's promised fifteen times (or more) to change her ways and turn things around. This has been going on, as I said for about the last five or six years. Granted, we're both older now, we have a seventeen-year-old daughter, work and real life are distractions, but geez, I deal with those just as much as she does and it hasn't stopped me.
> 
> As for the other questions raised, we're in trouble in just about every area of our relationship. We had a fantastic sex life until about five or six years ago, she "got religion" (literally) and then everything fun and adventurous was a sin to her, so our sex life is almost totally dead now. Yes, we've had a lot of counseling about that too and none of it seems to be getting through to her.
> 
> I'm kinda' to the point of doing what's been mentioned, just wanting to put up a complete wall to insulate myself from her and keep from being slammed repeatedly. That's not my nature though, so that in itself would take some self-training. I really don't want this to end in divorce, but honestly, I don't even want to go home right now, I'd rather just stay here at work and sleep at my desk. :loser:


So "getting religion" **does that mean that she became a born again Christian?**leads to no fun and adventure in your marriage, leads to no sex in your marriage and I imagine no other intimacy in your marriage, and then ultimately to counseling which has not been helping your marriage?

This is not the type of marriage I would want for me or for anyone else. Where is the love? Where is the spontaneity? Where is the appreciation? This is not a marriage. This reminds me of the saying... 2 ships passing each-other in the night.

My maternal grandmother was spontaneous. I got that gene from her. I enjoy spontaneity. It keeps your marriage fresh and exciting. I had to "train" my husband **when we were involved in a serious relationship** to be like this. He "finally came around" and realized the benefits of spontaneity.

I hope your daughter does not become like your wife regarding no fun, no adventure and no sex in a marriage. A marriage needs all three to survive.


----------



## spunkycat08

Hicks said:


> OK, here's what I see based on new data.
> 
> She got tired of your marriage about 6 years ago and replaced her marriage with Religion as her number one priority. Some people get "fooled" into thinking this is OK becuase religion is a morally good thing to be involved with. But you see it all over these boards that wives tend to exit marriages by finding something to replace it such as religion, working out, a job, a hobby, a friend, or an affair. Well more accurately, the affair usuually attaches itself to one of the others as the wife is continuing to push boudaries while husband is just trying to keep the peace in reaction mode. But basically it is the same "problem".
> 
> And that problem is they are unhappy in their marriage so they define the terms of their own life to include doing whatever they want to do and maintaining their marriage for what they get out of it only (i.e finances, social status, social perception, parental help, "for the kids", etc.). And the husband puts up with it. He becomes the nice guy. And in wanting her husband to change, and hold her accountable to being his wife, she keeps ratcheting up the behavior more and more extreme.
> 
> *Now, there is one and only one way to deal with it. Accept nothing less than a wife and marriage that is on NORMAL TERMS. And what is normal terms? It is a man meeting the needs of a woman and a woman meeting the needs of a man. It is loving interaction. It is something that provides mutual fulfillment. It is a family operating as a team.
> 
> One of the things you have to look long and hard at is why wasn't her marriage fulfilling to her thus opening the door to replace it with Religion as #1.*


Regarding the bolded part in pink...

:iagree:


----------



## spunkycat08

Blossom Leigh said:


> "got religion??" (assumption is Christian)
> 
> I hope this is not why she "dried up" in sex... the Bible is VERY clear NOT to do that. That it puts the marriage in serious danger.
> 
> Plus HE created it FOR PLEASURE.
> 
> not good... not good at all if this is the case


Good. His wife needs to see this.

What church is telling her this?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I dont know but the circles I run in chuch wise say, it is a must, combats loneliness, serves to celebrate the union through intense pleasure, for having children, etc... It serves as protection of the emotional bond.


----------



## Openminded

She wouldn't be the first religious wife to believe sex is meant for procreation -- assuming sex is the primary problem and not a secondary problem (such as total disinterest in him which is what it sounds like to me).


----------



## bild-a-loco

Hi again everybody. To clear up once again about my trains - I don't really spend time with them, nor do I have a layout to play with them on. 90% of my forty-year collection is put away in tubs in air conditioned storage. I would like to, but I just don't have the time or space. I haven't set up a single loop of track anywhere in the house since May, 2012, and that was just for a couple of days to test some repairs on a loco I'd done. To clear up confusion about what these trains look like, here's a link to my Youtube channel showing one of my trains around the Christmas tree back in 2010. This loco was made in 1930 and weighs about nine pounds - uses 250 watts of juice at 25 volts to get it moving. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RceEIQZtR4I

Regarding the religious question that is rolling around. We always went to church and aren't pagans, but had always had a wonderful and adventurous personal sex life which was wonderfully kinky - you name it, we enjoyed it, everything was great. She got very religious (yes born-again Christian, and suddenly, overnight, everything but plain vanilla missionary position sex was "sinful" and all the fun kinky stuff we'd always done "she feels guilty about." We had many talks that there was nothing to feel guilty about, our counselor has told her many times there's nothing to feel guilty about, but none of that has had any impact. Our sex life went from a long period of being outrageously good to being outrageously dull and because of that, the frequency also fell off a cliff. We've had so many discussions about that subject in recent years it's not worth rehashing, all hope there is pretty well lost. 

The weekend was interesting, with Father's Day and whatnot. I am settling in on my 180 program while waiting for my book to arrive. We had a long talk again Saturday night thanks to my daughter going over to a friend's house, so we'll see if that does any good, but she's once again stated she's aware of the many problems going on and is resolved to take action to improve matters. For Father's Day, I got a Bass Pro gift card for $40 - an interesting choice since I don't hunt or fish, or camp, or do any outdoor activities, but, her office is about a mile from Bass Pro and she passes it daily going back and forth to work. 

Still, that's better than nothing, I was polite and thanked her for it, and I can actually use it to buy a gun case for one of my antique guns. She also insisted on bringing me out to a semi-fancy restaurant for lunch (again, I hate going to fancy restaurants), but I went because my daughter wanted to go.

She napped a lot last weekend (A LOT!), so other than our talk Saturday night, not much else happened, but I think she is sensing a shift in our universe - will keep you guys updated and thanks again very much for all the help.


----------



## turnera

Let her see you going out and having fun without her.


----------



## bandit.45

Bass Pro has some good clothes and barbecue equipment too.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

your relationship is ripe for an affair if you aren't already in one whether it be just emotional or not...

lack of sexual fulfillment for years

non responsive spouse to your need

makes it hard to focus on what is good in the relationship

making it SUPER easy for someone else to come along and help you keep your eyes on what is bad and "soothe" your pain...

What are you doing to protect yourself from that?


----------



## tom67

Blossom Leigh said:


> your relationship is ripe for an affair if you aren't already in one whether it be just emotional or not...
> 
> lack of sexual fulfillment for years
> 
> non responsive spouse to your need
> 
> makes it hard to focus on what is good in the relationship
> 
> making it SUPER easy for someone else to come along and help you keep your eyes on what is bad and "soothe" your pain...
> 
> What are you doing to protect yourself from that?


So you had another talk with her and it changed nothing.:scratchhead:
Honestly I don't see anything changing unless d is an option otherwise she knows you will just continue putting up with this.
Sigh...
I think you are at this point where you have nothing to lose and everything to gain by flat out asking her if you can get your needs met with someone else. Yes I am serious.
If this doesn't shock her or give her any incentive to work with you then sadly d is the only option.


----------



## LongWalk

Tom,

You mean he should take his wife by the arm gently but firmly and say that he needs to have a girlfriend?

Moreover if she doesn't like it, he has to divorce?

In that case, it is best to do the 180 and simply prepare for divorce. If his wife seeks him out for some explanation, he can just say that he is done and wants a divorce. If she insists on asking why, I would not give any specific answer, except to say something like "we don't enjoy each other's company anymore and it's not healthy for either of us. I want you to be happy and don't want to be an obstacle to a fulfilling life."

If she insists on more explanation, I would just reply: "You are a good woman and you deserve someone with the same values and desires."

No more explanation should be offered. Sex should not be mentioned because the goal of the 180 and detachment is not to blackmail sex from her. That woud be meaningless.

If she goes crazy in bed, that would be sign that she gets it.


----------



## tom67

LongWalk said:


> Tom,
> 
> You mean he should take his wife by the arm gently but firmly and say that he needs to have a girlfriend?
> 
> Moreover if she doesn't like it, he has to divorce?
> 
> In that case, it is best to do the 180 and simply prepare for divorce. If his wife seeks him out for some explanation, he can just say that he is done and wants a divorce. If she insists on asking why, I would not give any specific answer, except to say something like "we don't enjoy each other's company anymore and it's not healthy for either of us. I want you to be happy and don't want to be an obstacle to a fulfilling life."
> 
> If she insists on more explanation, I would just reply: "You are a good woman and you deserve someone with the same values and desires."
> 
> No more explanation should be offered. Sex should not be mentioned because the goal of the 180 and detachment is not to blackmail sex from her. That woud be meaningless.
> 
> If she goes crazy in bed, that would be sign that she gets it.


She has zero incentive to change if d is not on the table bottom line.
Yes that would be extreme to ask if he can have a gf but at this point what does he have to lose.
OP if you don't like that idea go and print up d papers from your state/county court and leave them where she can see them.


----------



## treyvion

tom67 said:


> She has zero incentive to change if d is not on the table bottom line.
> Yes that would be extreme to ask if he can have a gf but at this point what does he have to lose.
> OP if you don't like that idea go and print up d papers from your state/county court and leave them where she can see them.


Don't ask about a gf, let her know you are going to do what you have to do, and that means a relationship partner for the needs she refuses to meet. Over time you will divorce.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

bild-a-loco said:


> We had a long talk again Saturday night thanks to my daughter going over to a friend's house, so we'll see if that does any good, but she's once again stated she's aware of the many problems going on and is resolved to take action to improve matters.


Stop talking. It is not working and all it does is give her a chance to make promises that she won't keep. So quit it. 



> She napped a lot last weekend (A LOT!), so other than our talk Saturday night, not much else happened, but I think she is sensing a shift in our universe - will keep you guys updated and thanks again very much for all the help.


So what did you do yesterday? You should have gone out and had some fun, leaving her a note saying that you were out. But my guess is that you stayed at home upset that she did not do what she promised. Stop counting on her to make you happy and take on that yourself.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Yea.. this is a blend of issues...

He's putting her on the hook for somethings and yet she is being neglectful as he describes, wonder what her side of this looks like. 

Bad cycle and it needs broken for sure.. but

affairs are a bad answer - destructive
blackmailing for sex is a bad answer - destructive

focusing on his own healing for his own sake in constructive ways is good

Do you "want" to fix your marriage?

I'm hearing a lot of whining ... about small stuff on top of big stuff. Makes me start questioning if an affair has already started.

you know.. I just had a thought... maybe you need to let your "doting" ways dry up for a bit... I've heard this concept before about relationships that are super affectionate can become "soaked" and if your doting has been intense regardless of her reaction... maybe it's time to stop for a while and let it dry off WITHOUT triggering abandonment fears. Its not for a weapon sake, but a strategic healthy sake... does that resonate?


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Blossom Leigh said:


> you know.. I just had a thought... maybe you need to let your "doting" ways dry up for a bit... I've heard this concept before about relationships that are super affectionate can become "soaked" and if your doting has been intense regardless of her reaction... maybe it's time to stop for a while and let it dry off WITHOUT triggering abandonment fears. Its not for a weapon sake, but a strategic healthy sake... does that resonate?


The Thermostat thread is somewhat geared toward this. That being the "hot" one can actually turn off the cooler partner at some point. So cooling off a bit allows that cooler partner a chance to breath a bit.


----------



## happy as a clam

WorkingOnMe said:


> The danger is what makes it exciting. *A fishing boat? Come on. *Next he'll be getting an rv. :lame:


:iagree:


*THIS* is sexy:










*THIS* is not!!!


----------



## murphy5

bild-a-loco said:


> She napped a lot last weekend (A LOT!), so other than our talk Saturday night, not much else happened, but I think she is sensing a shift in our universe - will keep you guys updated and thanks again very much for all the help.


What I would do is take my clothes off, slide in next to her, and start to play with her napping body. What do you have to lose? She might wake up horny, roll over, and its off to the races. If she weasles out of it, have her at least give you a hand job. If she refuses, kick her out of your bedroom.


----------



## Iver

OK...for starters the affair/girlfriend/open marriage idea is terrible. Period. It's a terrible idea. 

The kind of woman who would agree to be "side-action" to a married man...well, make sure you are stocked up on protection if you know what I mean. 

What is more likely is you'd be searching for a woman and your wife would show up with the biker dude posted above as her new "traveling companion". Seriously. And then what are you going to say?

OK, enough with that. 

You've mentioned counseling - have you gone to IC? I'm asking because you are not coping with the current situation. I do notice gifts seem to loom large for you. Maybe moving forward for your birthdays plan out what you want to do and then do it. 

If your wife does not change what are your options? 

1. Divorce her which you have stated you don't want to do.
2. Stay in the current status quo and be miserable
3. Learn to live with the changes. Make yourself happy and don't look to other people to do things for you that they continue to fail to do.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Tall Average Guy said:


> The Thermostat thread is somewhat geared toward this. That being the "hot" one can actually turn off the cooler partner at some point. So cooling off a bit allows that cooler partner a chance to breath a bit.


Exactly ... open up space for her to come out and blossom.. possibility she is shut down on some level


----------



## Blossom Leigh

happy as a clam said:


> :iagree:
> 
> 
> *THIS* is sexy:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *THIS* is not!!!


I'm sorry, but for me a man in the woods or on a body of water is hot... cannot state how many times I have jumped my man just walking through the woods or out on a boat... well, and ok also after riding motorcycles... its about being outside for me.. LOVE being outside and having whooo hooo.. lol  Sun is my aphrodesiac..


----------



## bild-a-loco

Actually, that guy on the motorcycle is me - that's my old Facebook profile photo. :smthumbup:

Blossom, you sound like a very "motivated" woman - god bless ya'. Whatever you're drinking, please share it with the other ladies out there. 

Also, no "affairs" have started, or ever will start on this side of the fence anyway. I watched my dad ruin his life with affairs and have seen two friends from my teenage years wreck their lives with them, so I will NOT venture down that road. I've had plenty of opportunities - I used to be a semi-pro rock star back in the eighties and being a semi-big-shot with a publishing company, there are a LOT of pretty girls very eager to break into modeling. Should I ever seek to make my wife jealous with a young lady, it would not be difficult to find a willing accomplice. That is not my desire. 

Yes, I do hope to fix our relationship - if not, I wouldn't be here. I don't think it's too far gone to save at this moment, but it is severely damaged. Since she's very big into Christmas, I used a Christmas metaphor on her Saturday night that really got her attention - "If these shadows go unaltered, Tiny Tim will die" - meaning, if she doesn't change her ways, our relationship will end. She definitely sobered up and understood what I meant. 

Now, I just have to see if she will do anything, or if she will continue down the same path. My book came in today, will start reading it tonight!


----------



## Iver

That's a good start but I'd recommend you be clear on what you want and when you want it. I know this seems a bit much but remember your W is not a mind reader.

I want X. 
You need to purchase it by Y.
Invite these people to this restaurant on this day.

Essentially walk her through this step by step so she can't "lame-out" on it. 

If this doesn't work I don't know what else to say other than I never much liked that Timmy character.

I did read your other thread and do think you have some very legitimite concerns. Her backing out of your N.O. trip at the last minute is not compatible with being married. If you haven't I'd use that as an example of actions that would lead to a divorce.


----------



## MarriedTex

Iver said:


> I did read your other thread and do think you have some very legitimite concerns. Her backing out of your N.O. trip at the last minute is not compatible with being married. If you haven't I'd use that as an example of actions that would lead to a divorce.


No, not a good example for him to use now. She's been pushing for N.O. trip for past month. She can say "she tried" but he wouldn't go for it. That's the battle from earlier this year. Gotta focus on the here and now.

I reiterate that the basic problem is that she can't trust what he says he wants because he's not made a habit of being authentic in stating what he wants. In her eyes, he's a diva with undecipherable tastes who can't be satisfied. That's one of the reasons she cries when this issue comes up. It's an effort to recognize / understand what will make him happy. She wants a happy marriage but would probably prefer to be given a shortcut in identifying something that makes her husband happy. 

I will grant that she doesn't put much effort into the process, complicating the situation even further. At this point, Loco seems to me to prefer having an "example of injustice" that further proves his long-held notions that he's under-loved. In a perverted way, he doesn't want her to fill his needs now because that would undermine his carefully crafted position of martyrdom. If she were "nice" to him, that would contradict his established worldview of being the neglected husband.

I know all of this because I was where you were at seven to eight years ago. Slowly, I changed my habits. Took a long time for her to recognize that I've turned more authentic in this regard. No longer playing a game of "gotcha" to demonstrate that she's a sub-standard wife. Instead, I reliably throw her bread crumbs, leaving a trail of information that she can use to make me happy.

It's not perfect. I have to work harder at a relationship to get the basics I want / think that I deserve. Probably would be easier in a relationship where that kind of spouse support comes without having to work for it. But it is there for the taking if you don't throw up roadblocks.

If you're happy throwing pity parties for yourself, then you're approaching your relationship in exactly the right way. A good dose of "woe is me" will make you feel good in the short term. I've silently cried myself to sleep more times than I care to count in the bad 'ol days. It makes you feel better, more justified in your outlook - as weird as that sounds. If you want to optimize your relationship (even if it may not ultimately be "optimal"), you have to look within yourself to determine what changes need to be made.


----------



## 2ntnuf

I was thinking more like a bayliner or large pontoon boat. 

Here --->CVO 2014 Custom Motorcycles | Harley-Davidson USA


----------



## LongWalk

MarriedTex,

You mean that he should explain what he wants and actually expect it to happen? And what should he do when it doesn't?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

bild-a-loco said:


> Actually, that guy on the motorcycle is me - that's my old Facebook profile photo. :smthumbup:
> 
> Blossom, you sound like a very "motivated" woman - god bless ya'. Whatever you're drinking, please share it with the other ladies out there.
> 
> Also, no "affairs" have started, or ever will start on this side of the fence anyway. I watched my dad ruin his life with affairs and have seen two friends from my teenage years wreck their lives with them, so I will NOT venture down that road. I've had plenty of opportunities - I used to be a semi-pro rock star back in the eighties and being a semi-big-shot with a publishing company, there are a LOT of pretty girls very eager to break into modeling. Should I ever seek to make my wife jealous with a young lady, it would not be difficult to find a willing accomplice. That is not my desire.
> 
> Yes, I do hope to fix our relationship - if not, I wouldn't be here. I don't think it's too far gone to save at this moment, but it is severely damaged. Since she's very big into Christmas, I used a Christmas metaphor on her Saturday night that really got her attention - "If these shadows go unaltered, Tiny Tim will die" - meaning, if she doesn't change her ways, our relationship will end. She definitely sobered up and understood what I meant.
> 
> Now, I just have to see if she will do anything, or if she will continue down the same path. My book came in today, will start reading it tonight!


 thanks...

Hmmm. I have some friends here in the South who were rockers in the 80's. Wonder if you know them. 

Glad to see you guard against the destruction of affairs. Smart.

So that leads me down another road.. with experiencing rocker adoration and big shot status in corporate America, is the desire for gifts a substitution for feeding that intense narcissistic supply? Do you feels yours is healthy and not unreasonable?

Is your wife overwhelmed, exhausted, or depressed? Do you think she is still resolving her past kinkiness, which makes me wonder just how kinky now that rocker status has been revealed. I have known someone who spent time in the fast lane who shared "stories." Are you asking her to return to that and she is saying no? Or is it that she has dried up totally. I ask because this person asks his wife to do xyz and he is upset she wont and the people around her are saying "he asks you to do WHAT???????" So how "freaked" are we talking?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

What IS clear is there has been a shift in this relationship that requires an adjustment.. question is...

1. Do you adjust to her
2. Does she adjust to you
or
3. Do y'all stay engaged on this issue until you build a solution together

Be super careful putting her on the hook for something in you that needs adjusting. And visa versa... That's unhealthy. All of your happiness requirement doesn't belong on her and visa versa. 

Do you know what you want for her and have you assessed it to determine if it is a reasonable request and/or presented reasonably (absent of unhealthy emotional pressure).


----------



## bild-a-loco

Morning Blossom, and everyone else. If you have friends who were/are rockers in the Southern states, I probably know them or have connections who do. To toot my own horn, I was a rhythm guitar/bass player in a couple of hair bands based out of Louisiana back in the day and still have a lot of musician friends. I've had jam sessions or been on stage with ZZ-Top, Creed, Three Doors Down, Seether, 12 Stones, Kenny Wayne Shepherd, Tab Benoit, Tabby Thomas, Zebra, Poison, Autograph, and even did a little bit with Ric O'Kasik (not sure I spelled that right) of The Cars back when. Still very good friends with Ritchie Fliegler, formerly of Fender Guitars, Paul Reed Smith and Marc Minarik of Minarik guitars, so I still love music - just had to grow up and don't have the time for it anymore. My daughter is quite good and she's toured all over the place doing vocals and piano primarily - even did a ten day tour of Europe when she was thirteen! (bragging father mode there - sorry). 

Regarding the kinkiness, I never asked her to sleep with goats or anything like that. We had a very kinky and very wonderful sex life for most of our marriage - so I've not asked her in a long time to do anything we hadn't done many times before. Much of that's too detailed to get into here, but it wasn't orgy-type stuff, we never did group sex or anything like that, but we did belong to several "clubs" down here for many years which had specialized rooms for having fun, role playing, and larger areas for just socializing - which we would usually go to several times a month and did so for many years. They were the kinds of places where the ladies would usually sit around together and laugh about how stupid the "50 Shades of Gray" books were. The rooms were not peep-show affairs, what happened in there was between you and whomever was in there with you. They were very classy and upscale, very private, and membership was carefully screened. No alcohol was ever allowed, but they did have regular soft drinks and lots of neat snacks - they were NOT "swinger" clubs - not into that, just rather nice adult playgrounds that had all sorts of stuff you wouldn't ordinarily be able to explain away having in your house! Lots of professional types belonged to the clubs, we made a lot of great friends through them and we often used to go over to 4th of July cookouts and things with many of them - we've lost contact with all of them now because, again, she feels all activity of that sort is sinful and perverted (although it didn't bother her and she absolutely loved it for the better part of twenty years). Aside from that, obviously, we had our sex life at home as well, with a ginormous selection of toys and accessories, but that rolled over and died at the same time, because, even at home, most all perversions of the act of making love were seen as sinful. 

ON THE PLUS SIDE! She announced to me last night that she is going to see a new therapist on her own tomorrow - referred to her by the therapist we've been seeing the last few years. When I asked her why she was changing to this new lady instead of our regular guy, she told me our therapist recommended it because "obviously I'm not helping you, I think you need somebody that might get through to you better." I thought the choice of words was interesting - that's the same trouble I've been having! 

Saturday, since we were alone she asked about having sex, and honestly, I don't want to have sex right now because of all that's happened. I told her then, "Until such time as I don't feel like a thrift store doormat, I'm not really interested in sex, we have bigger problems." She was surprised by that and didn't know how to respond. Last night, daughter was at her job until 10:00 and wifey decided to wander around the house in a cut-off t-shirt and a pair of lace panties (which she absolutely NEVER does), like it was normal for her. After ignoring the situation for about three hours, at 9:30 I very nicely told her, "you really should go put some p.j's on before our daughter comes home, she's gonna' be kinda' freaked out if she sees you just sitting around like that." Again, absolutely confused, she agreed, went and put some pajamas on, and is apparently stunned that I'm seemingly capable of surviving without sex. I am not trying to do this as a "weapon", but if I'm going to do the 180 thing and do it right, I've been reading I cannot send mixed signals, and that, I think would definitely be a mixed signal. 

As to being a martyr, hells no I don't enjoy and/or want to be a martyr! I am not laying "gotcha" traps anywhere and I have no desire to be playing the victim. Believe me, if all this crap ended tomorrow, I'd be the happiest little bastard on the planet - I have no desires to see her fail, nor do I want her to fail. She has built the tomb we're now in, brick-by-brick for the last half dozen years, and it will be up to her to break it apart. Like I told her Saturday, until I'm no longer afraid of being hurt by her, I'm staying in my fort behind the couch (borrowed that line from somebody here - love it). 

I think her deciding to see another therapist, on her own, is a very good sign - she has taken an unprompted action and is showing concern. She hasn't really done anything about it, yet, but she is showing concern, so that, at least, gives me some hope. 

Thanks again, sorry to ramble, I'm all jacked up on Starbucks!


----------



## bandit.45

Who has been feeding her all this false doctrine about fun sex being sinful?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

Read neuklas's thread. Is doing something similar to you.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

bild-a-loco said:


> Morning Blossom, and everyone else. If you have friends who were/are rockers in the Southern states, I probably know them or have connections who do. To toot my own horn, I was a rhythm guitar/bass player in a couple of hair bands based out of Louisiana back in the day and still have a lot of musician friends. I've had jam sessions or been on stage with ZZ-Top, Creed, Three Doors Down, Seether, 12 Stones, Kenny Wayne Shepherd, Tab Benoit, Tabby Thomas, Zebra, Poison, Autograph, and even did a little bit with Ric O'Kasik (not sure I spelled that right) of The Cars back when. Still very good friends with Ritchie Fliegler, formerly of Fender Guitars, Paul Reed Smith and Marc Minarik of Minarik guitars, so I still love music - just had to grow up and don't have the time for it anymore. My daughter is quite good and she's toured all over the place doing vocals and piano primarily - even did a ten day tour of Europe when she was thirteen! (bragging father mode there - sorry).
> 
> Regarding the kinkiness, I never asked her to sleep with goats or anything like that. We had a very kinky and very wonderful sex life for most of our marriage - so I've not asked her in a long time to do anything we hadn't done many times before. Much of that's too detailed to get into here, but it wasn't orgy-type stuff, we never did group sex or anything like that, but we did belong to several "clubs" down here for many years which had specialized rooms for having fun, role playing, and larger areas for just socializing - which we would usually go to several times a month and did so for many years. They were the kinds of places where the ladies would usually sit around together and laugh about how stupid the "50 Shades of Gray" books were. The rooms were not peep-show affairs, what happened in there was between you and whomever was in there with you. They were very classy and upscale, very private, and membership was carefully screened. No alcohol was ever allowed, but they did have regular soft drinks and lots of neat snacks - they were NOT "swinger" clubs - not into that, just rather nice adult playgrounds that had all sorts of stuff you wouldn't ordinarily be able to explain away having in your house! Lots of professional types belonged to the clubs, we made a lot of great friends through them and we often used to go over to 4th of July cookouts and things with many of them - we've lost contact with all of them now because, again, she feels all activity of that sort is sinful and perverted (although it didn't bother her and she absolutely loved it for the better part of twenty years). Aside from that, obviously, we had our sex life at home as well, with a ginormous selection of toys and accessories, but that rolled over and died at the same time, because, even at home, most all perversions of the act of making love were seen as sinful.
> 
> ON THE PLUS SIDE! She announced to me last night that she is going to see a new therapist on her own tomorrow - referred to her by the therapist we've been seeing the last few years. When I asked her why she was changing to this new lady instead of our regular guy, she told me our therapist recommended it because "obviously I'm not helping you, I think you need somebody that might get through to you better." I thought the choice of words was interesting - that's the same trouble I've been having!
> 
> Saturday, since we were alone she asked about having sex, and honestly, I don't want to have sex right now because of all that's happened. I told her then, "Until such time as I don't feel like a thrift store doormat, I'm not really interested in sex, we have bigger problems." She was surprised by that and didn't know how to respond. Last night, daughter was at her job until 10:00 and wifey decided to wander around the house in a cut-off t-shirt and a pair of lace panties (which she absolutely NEVER does), like it was normal for her. After ignoring the situation for about three hours, at 9:30 I very nicely told her, "you really should go put some p.j's on before our daughter comes home, she's gonna' be kinda' freaked out if she sees you just sitting around like that." Again, absolutely confused, she agreed, went and put some pajamas on, and is apparently stunned that I'm seemingly capable of surviving without sex. I am not trying to do this as a "weapon", but if I'm going to do the 180 thing and do it right, I've been reading I cannot send mixed signals, and that, I think would definitely be a mixed signal.
> 
> As to being a martyr, hells no I don't enjoy and/or want to be a martyr! I am not laying "gotcha" traps anywhere and I have no desire to be playing the victim. Believe me, if all this crap ended tomorrow, I'd be the happiest little bastard on the planet - I have no desires to see her fail, nor do I want her to fail. She has built the tomb we're now in, brick-by-brick for the last half dozen years, and it will be up to her to break it apart. Like I told her Saturday, until I'm no longer afraid of being hurt by her, I'm staying in my fort behind the couch (borrowed that line from somebody here - love it).
> 
> I think her deciding to see another therapist, on her own, is a very good sign - she has taken an unprompted action and is showing concern. She hasn't really done anything about it, yet, but she is showing concern, so that, at least, gives me some hope.
> 
> Thanks again, sorry to ramble, I'm all jacked up on Starbucks!


All of that sounds VERY hopeful!! Awesome!!! So glad you aren't a martyr.. that would suck. So maybe it was a phase of her sorting out that doctrine which somewhere is TWISTED! If the good Lord above made her C**t**** that has no other function than pleasure... the good Lord above MEANT for it to be just that. And the Bible is loaded with beautiful scriptures about just how wonderful that exchange is supposed to be. You as her husband are to dive in and ENJOY and she is to RELISH in that pleasure. THEREFORE.... she has gotten a load of crap from somewhere... the ONLY thing you are not supposed to do is ask her to sin, which asking her to do an orgy would have fallen into that category. So, good thing you aren't asking her to do that. The buddy I was hinting at was doing exactly that. 

My music buddy is Barry Waldrep from Telluride, then Rolling in the Hay, then Six Ways from Sunday with Jacob Bunton of Lynam. Barry and Zac Brown are big buddies and there is a video of Zac praising Barry's skills on You tube... There is also video of Barry and Jacob jamming out blue grass together, which I think is AWESOME given their rocker back grounds. Love it! Barry is now in GA, remarried and a very happy camper. He's a good guy. As is Jacob. Really appreciate their talents and attitude.


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## Blonde

I'm glad she's getting a new therapist. That other one sounded absolutely horrible for her.

Fraid y'all are not a match. Don't be surprised if she grows a backbone in therapy to end this poor excuse for a M. She can find a nice religious man who loves her and appreciates her being sexually available without the huge chip on his shoulder.


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## Blossom Leigh

I meant to ask what her love language was...


----------



## MarriedTex

LongWalk said:


> MarriedTex,
> 
> You mean that he should explain what he wants and actually expect it to happen? And what should he do when it doesn't?


Cross that bridge when you come to it. It could mean lots of things. He could choose to stay married and focus on friends and his music, essentially de-prioritizing the relationship. Or he could go full-blown separation / divorce.

That's putting cart before the horse, though. First thing to do is to fix himself, clearly state what he needs and to stay consistent with it. She's confused. You can see her going through the list of approaches that have worked in the past. (Even resorting to sexing it up.) That's good. She still wants to make a positive impression. 

Loco's challenge is to communicate exactly what he wants, packaged in a form that is achievable and can be sustained over time. 

You can discount all my "silent martyr" descriptions all you want. The fact is that you're finally getting movement when you start laying it on the line that you're unhappy with the status of the relationship and that change is needed. In short, you're finally starting to get through by communicating in an authentic way. The progress accompanied by your change is a clear signal - to me, at least - that you must have been doing something wrong before. (She still shoulders much of the blame here, but ya gotta be willing to be true to yourself and recognize your own faults - lest you repeat them down the line.)

The more you shoot straight in sharing what you want, the better roadmap you give her for addressing your needs / desires. She wants a good relationship but has not been quite willing to go to the mat to do the things that make a relationship truly a two-way street. 

Your most recent post just confirms to me even more that this is not her problem that exists in a vacuum. You're both contributing to the dysfunction. Continue to fix your side of the problem and let the chips fall where they may.


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## Blossom Leigh

Blossom Leigh said:


> All of that sounds VERY hopeful!! Awesome!!! So glad you aren't a martyr.. that would suck. So maybe it was a phase of her sorting out that doctrine which somewhere is TWISTED! If the good Lord above made her C**t**** that has no other function than pleasure... the good Lord above MEANT for it to be just that. And the Bible is loaded with beautiful scriptures about just how wonderful that exchange is supposed to be. You as her husband are to dive in and ENJOY and she is to RELISH in that pleasure. THEREFORE.... she has gotten a load of crap from somewhere... the ONLY thing you are not supposed to do is ask her to sin, which asking her to do an orgy would have fallen into that category. So, good thing you aren't asking her to do that. The buddy I was hinting at was doing exactly that.
> 
> My music buddy is Barry Waldrep from the 80's band Telluride, then Rolling in the Hay, then Six Ways from Sunday with Jacob Bunton of Lynam. Barry and Zac Brown are big buddies and there is a video of Zac praising Barry's skills on You tube... There is also video of Barry and Jacob jamming out blue grass together, which I think is AWESOME given their rocker back grounds. Love it! Barry is now in GA, remarried and a very happy camper. He's a good guy. As is Jacob. Really appreciate their talents and attitude.


Oh... In 2004 after Barry heard me sing at church one Sunday morning he asked me to come sing with him at his 4th of July jam at WorkPlay in Birmingham Alabama, but because rehearsals where in the middle of the day and I had just started a new job I turned him down. CAN YOU BELIEVE I did that... augh.. I look back now and think... where would that have led... geeze. Have thought about doing The Voice, but time commitments are tough... so we'll see.

I used to ride horses with his wife.. that's how we met.


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## Tall Average Guy

bild-a-loco said:


> I am not laying "gotcha" traps anywhere and I have no desire to be playing the victim.


Your description to the birthday parties was one big gotcha trap. You threw a big one for her and hinted about what you wanted, then got mad because she did not give it to you. You set up a covert contract and then got mad when she did not follow through.

Read No More Mr. Nice Guy. I am not saying she is without fault, but you need to stop you part in this as well.


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## naiveonedave

Tall - I didn't see that as a covert contract, it was very overt, esp when Loco describes her as demanding big doings for xmas and b-days, etc. 

Covert would have been to be mad without giving any info or limited information. At least that is my opinion.


----------



## bild-a-loco

Tall Average Guy said:


> Your description to the birthday parties was one big gotcha trap. You threw a big one for her and hinted about what you wanted, then got mad because she did not give it to you. You set up a covert contract and then got mad when she did not follow through.
> 
> Read No More Mr. Nice Guy. I am not saying she is without fault, but you need to stop you part in this as well.


The book came in yesterday, I'm reading it in the evenings now. I fail to see how when somebody asks you what you'd like for your birthday, and you then give them specific items to choose from, from specific sellers, and then they don't get you anything at all, how that qualifies as a "gotcha!" trap? 

If your wife asks you what you'd like for a special dinner, you tell her, and then she cooks nothing at all, have you somehow sprung a "gotcha" trap on her if you're confused and bewildered by it? 

And to Blossom, don't know Barry or Jacob I'm afraid - I'm a bit older than they are! We never really played much outside of Louisiana, Texas, Mississippi, and Western Florida (live anyway) - mostly Louisiana and Texas. And PLEASE, do not waste your money or time messing about with "The Voice" or "American Idol" or any of that soap opera mess - it's all staged, scripted, and as 100% realistic as pro wrestling. If you're not a friend of the producers or have an agent who is, you're not going anywhere on those programs. Chris Daughtry is a decent friend of mine, and he agonizes over those shows and watching people line up to "audition" for them, forking over their cash to get their chance at stardom when it's all just a big scam. Just remember, there is no such thing as "reality" television - it's ALL fake and scripted, no matter what the show is. 

My wife's "love language" as identified early in therapy is partly affirmation and partly quality time - and I would agree with that assessment 100%. That is the main reason I've always cooperated fully with her gala Christmas parties and other functions, gone to dinners and luncheons with her, and have always tried to be complimentary of her work, her appearance, and things she does with our daughter. I think this puts me at a disadvantage now, as it's hard to be critical of somebody who's love language is affirmation. 

Oh well... :scratchhead:


----------



## Tall Average Guy

naiveonedave said:


> Tall - I didn't see that as a covert contract, it was very overt, esp when Loco describes her as demanding big doings for xmas and b-days, etc.
> 
> Covert would have been to be mad without giving any info or limited information. At least that is my opinion.


I disagree. He is doing those things because he expects her to do something for him in exchange. When he complained about his party, he specifically compared it to what he did for her and how hers came up short. That she demands it is another aspect, but he is clearly expecting something in return.


----------



## murphy5

I would tell her this:

You'll get nothing and like it! - YouTube


----------



## naiveonedave

Tall - he asked for specifics wants and not wants and she utterly failed. That is totally opposite of covert. He asked for meeting his needs, very overtly, imo.


----------



## turnera

He did ask overtly. But when he didn't get it, his response was passive aggressive. Maybe it's just me, but it's poor taste to tell people what to do for you and then punish them if they choose not to.

Now, I'm not saying there's not a problem there. There OBVIOUSLY is, she OBVIOUSLY puts him so far down her totem pole that he's below the concrete holding it up. But that's a different issue. This whole thread is about pouting because you don't get another person to demonstrate love and attention the way YOU want them to. And that just boils down to an attempt to control.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

naiveonedave said:


> Tall - he asked for specifics wants and not wants and she utterly failed. That is totally opposite of covert. He asked for meeting his needs, very overtly, imo.


But that misses the other part of it. The first part of the covert contract was him throwing the party for her. He did not do it because he loved her and wanted her happy. He did it so that she would throw him the party that he wanted. What makes it covert was that he never told her that.

If he had been open, he would have said "I am throwing you this party but I expect that you will then throw me the party I want." Because he did not, it makes it covert.

That does not mean that are not other big issues (her not listening or ignoring what he says are a big example). But right now, he can only work on himself. If he does something for her, he needs to do it because he wants to, not because she will reciprocate.


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## Blossom Leigh

And maybe thats why I keep getting this oppression feeling... She is shut down in self protect mode.

Has she mentioned anything concerning not feeling safe?


----------



## Iver

Any concern that one of your friends from your adult party days went beyond the boundaries you'd set? I'm not judging this pro or con (it's your life and what ever works for you) but I'd be worried that things may have escalated behind your back.

It's just odd that so much changed - is there something she feels guilty about perhaps? (I'm probably wrong here so there's that.)


----------



## bild-a-loco

Tall Average Guy said:


> But that misses the other part of it. The first part of the covert contract was him throwing the party for her. He did not do it because he loved her and wanted her happy. He did it so that she would throw him the party that he wanted. What makes it covert was that he never told her that.
> 
> If he had been open, he would have said "I am throwing you this party but I expect that you will then throw me the party I want." Because he did not, it makes it covert.
> 
> That does not mean that are not other big issues (her not listening or ignoring what he says are a big example). But right now, he can only work on himself. If he does something for her, he needs to do it because he wants to, not because she will reciprocate.


Tall, I threw her lavish parties not for the sake of reciprocation, but because that's what I have always done. As stated, I've known long before the therapist did that her "love languages" are affirmation and quality time - she likes parties, she likes dinners, she likes all that hoopla. I do not like all that hoopla - I'd rather had a thoughtful gift that's something I like - everybody's wired up different, that's how I'm wired up. She turned 50 a couple of years back, was bummed about the prospect, so I turned it into a "Sweet 16" themed disco party just like a "dream" party she would've gotten back in 1976 when she did actually turn sixteen. Everybody had to dress in tacky 1970's clothes, I had non-stop blaring disco music, we had a disco ball, lots of crazy lighting, and everybody had to bring her a retro 1976-era gift - lots of crazy thrift store items! Of course, there were "regular" gifts from myself and immediate family too, but none of that, nor any of her parties, has ever been done out of a petty tit-for-tat - "I did this, so now you owe me that" attitude - it was always done because I love the girl and know how much this stuff means to her. I can't tell you how many Christmas parties I've been to that I would've rather taken a beating than go to, but I went anyway and didn't ***** about it. 

The problem here and now is I'm absolutely sick of her never putting any thought into anything whatsoever involving me. It's not that I demand payback, it's just I'm sick of being treated like an old brown shoe or a doormat. We've had plenty of discussions to that effect through the years, as you'll see in my few earlier posts, but nothing's ever come of it. I've never given in order to get, or to manipulate, it was always done because I love her - I've just reached a point where I'm seriously frustrated that nothing ever comes back this way. 

The last birthday, which blew the lid off, I still do not understand the logic. If she specifically asks me what I want and where to get it, and I tell her (which is what occurred) well ahead of time, and then she did absolutely nothing, I have somehow baited this situation and don't have reason to be upset? I could send you photos from my last eight birthdays and you'd see me getting a small cake, a gift card or two, and nobody there but me, her, my daughter, and my father - it's been the same thing since I turned 43 - literally. I've told her I don't like it, the therapist has told her I don't like it, and it's never changed. In fact, this year, it was an all-time low because there wasn't even a gift card involved. I haven't had a "real" present since my 40th birthday, and I haven't had a party where more than five people were at it since my 40th birthday. Yes, I'm whining, but sorry, I'm peesed off about it. 

As stated, I've just started reading No More Mr. Nice Guy, and I am determined to turn my life around. She seems quite taken aback already that I'm not doting all over her, so, life's gonna' change one way or the other, but it's not going to continue along the same path. 

Not trying to sound like a jerk, but I think there's a difference in baiting, genuine affection and concern, and a complete disregard for your spouse's feelings. 

And again, to everyone, thanks very much, this whole forum is an amazing place, I read a lot here on other threads and learn so much stuff - fantastic place for advice!


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Has she offered her "why?"


----------



## bild-a-loco

Iver said:


> Any concern that one of your friends from your adult party days went beyond the boundaries you'd set? I'm not judging this pro or con (it's your life and what ever works for you) but I'd be worried that things may have escalated behind your back.
> 
> It's just odd that so much changed - is there something she feels guilty about perhaps? (I'm probably wrong here so there's that.)


No, absolutely not. We never did third-party things at those parties, and I knew everyone there that we hung out with quite well - I am VERY certain none of them would've gone behind my back to do anything with my wife. Call it honor among thieves if you will, but it's a very tightly-knit group of people and things like that are not tolerated in those clubs - in fact, that's one of the fastest ways to lose membership in one of those clubs. 

As to what "changed" - it's easy to pinpoint - she became a hardcore evangelical Christian - overnight, our whole world, sexually anyway, changed on a dime.


----------



## Iver

Did she ever give you a reason that remotely makes sense why she disrespects you so much as evidenced by blowing off your 50th?

I just wonder what happened? I'm assuming your 40th was a normal event that you were happy with? But for some reason she just checked out since then?


----------



## Tall Average Guy

bild-a-loco said:


> Tall, I threw her lavish parties not for the sake of reciprocation, but because that's what I have always done.
> 
> * * *
> 
> The problem here and now is I'm absolutely sick of her never putting any thought into anything whatsoever involving me. It's not that I demand payback, it's just I'm sick of being treated like an old brown shoe or a doormat.


You say that now in defense, but your initial post reeks of reciprocation. Excerpts from that post:



> Yesterday was my 50th birthday, and I got a big, fat, absolutely nothing.





> Her 50th birthday was an epic blowout, planned by me for over a month, our 20th anniversary a couple of months ago was, again, a big deal and she ended up falling asleep on me that night (no sex) in a fabulous luxurious suite after a major expensive meal and a night on the town. I spent $400 treating her like a queen that night, and she wanted to "rest" when we got back to the room, she fell asleep, then she snored the whole rest of the night. I bought her a nice watch for our anniversary, I got nothing. And that's how it's gone - I'm absolutely sick of it.


So you contrast all that you do for her and how she did not give you anything in return. Yes, it is about her not appreciating you. But there is a lot of quid pro quo in your posts as well. It is not an unfair reading of that above that you felt untitled to sex because you gave her all that other stuff.

Again, my point is not to excuse her - she does take advantage of you. But you have things to fix as well. You pout. You wait for her to make you happy. And you engage in these covert contracts. Since you can't control her, work on yourself.


----------



## bild-a-loco

Iver said:


> Did she ever give you a reason that remotely makes sense why she disrespects you so much as evidenced by blowing off your 50th?
> 
> I just wonder what happened? I'm assuming your 40th was a normal event that you were happy with? But for some reason she just checked out since then?


Her excuse, as posted earlier (but this thread's gotten looong!) was that "she was afraid to get me the wrong gift or something I wouldn't like." So, she got me nothing at all - after having been handed a list of gifts and sources, by me, well before my birthday, which I did at her request. 

As far as your wordage goes, I think it is quite right, as does our therapist, she's just "checked out" for some reason - he doesn't understand it, I don't understand it, and according to her, she doesn't understand it either. :scratchhead:


----------



## MarriedTex

bild-a-loco said:


> The problem here and now is I'm absolutely sick of her never putting any thought into anything whatsoever involving me. It's not that I demand payback, it's just I'm sick of being treated like an old brown shoe or a doormat. We've had plenty of discussions to that effect through the years, as you'll see in my few earlier posts, but nothing's ever come of it. I've never given in order to get, or to manipulate, it was always done because I love her - I've just reached a point where I'm seriously frustrated that nothing ever comes back this way.
> 
> The last birthday, which blew the lid off, I still do not understand the logic. If she specifically asks me what I want and where to get it, and I tell her (which is what occurred) well ahead of time, and then she did absolutely nothing, I have somehow baited this situation and don't have reason to be upset? I could send you photos from my last eight birthdays and you'd see me getting a small cake, a gift card or two, and nobody there but me, her, my daughter, and my father - it's been the same thing since I turned 43 - literally. I've told her I don't like it, the therapist has told her I don't like it, and it's never changed. In fact, this year, it was an all-time low because there wasn't even a gift card involved. I haven't had a "real" present since my 40th birthday, and I haven't had a party where more than five people were at it since my 40th birthday. Yes, I'm whining, but sorry, I'm peesed off about it.
> 
> 
> 
> And again, to everyone, thanks very much, this whole forum is an amazing place, I read a lot here on other threads and learn so much stuff - fantastic place for advice!


So, how often have you mentioned your attitude towards the parties between ages 43 and 50? Have you quietly accepted them, being the noble prince you are. Or - before this year - have you just done the grin-and-bear-it thing?

I've done the grin-and bear it more times than I can count. Thought I was sacrificing for good of family unit. Only problem was they didn't know I was making a sacrifice. They thought I was cool with being treated as "an old brown shoe" - as you like to say.

This is what I mean when I talk about being "authentic." It's about stating what you want clearly and succinctly without being a big immature douche about it. You'll read more about this in different language in NMMNG.

By the way, don't tell your wife you're reading NMMNG. That action evolves into a covert contract of its own. Under this scenario, implementing the NMMNG changes becomes a vehicle for seeking approval. You'll understand what I mean soon enough....


----------



## Blossom Leigh

bild-a-loco said:


> No, absolutely not. We never did third-party things at those parties, and I knew everyone there that we hung out with quite well - I am VERY certain none of them would've gone behind my back to do anything with my wife. Call it honor among thieves if you will, but it's a very tightly-knit group of people and things like that are not tolerated in those clubs - in fact, that's one of the fastest ways to lose membership in one of those clubs.
> 
> As to what "changed" - it's easy to pinpoint - she became a hardcore evangelical Christian - overnight, our whole world, sexually anyway, changed on a dime.


"hard core" evangelical Christian does not equate to no sex

I am one

I think it is why everyone is scratching their head for something else.:scratchhead:


----------



## Blossom Leigh

bild-a-loco said:


> Her excuse, as posted earlier (but this thread's gotten looong!) was that "she was afraid to get me the wrong gift or something I wouldn't like." So, she got me nothing at all - after having been handed a list of gifts and sources, by me, well before my birthday, which I did at her request.
> 
> As far as your wordage goes, I think it is quite right, as does our therapist, she's just "checked out" for some reason - he doesn't understand it, I don't understand it, and according to her, she doesn't understand it either. :scratchhead:


Sometimes it does take time to unpack it, but at least now she says she is pursuing that end... Thats good!

Which denomination did she pick???


----------



## bild-a-loco

Tall, I fully understand your point, and it is well taken. My wording is/was perhaps poorly done in the earlier posts and it was done at the peak of my implosion. I was stating contrasts, but not for the sake of meaning "I did this, so I expect that." I was doing it for clarification simply because most women I know will immediately reverse such a situation when complaints are voiced. In speaking with girls at the office, or anywhere else, the first thing they normally say is "well, what have you done for her?" That was why I phrased it the way I did, so as to hopefully avoid a bunch of posts to that effect.


----------



## COGypsy

Blossom Leigh said:


> "hard core" evangelical Christian does not equate to no sex
> 
> I am one
> 
> I think it is why everyone is scratching their head for something else.:scratchhead:


I would have to disagree. I grew up going to a variety of churches (Methodist, Presbyterian, EV Free, Disciples of Christ) depending on where we lived and I can tell you that the handful of sex-positive Christian posters on this board are the ONLY time I've ever heard from a religious perspective that sex is anything but a filthy, shameful act of submission to your husband, made only moderately acceptable if you were actively trying to conceive. 

I would have no problem believing that a change in faith by one person in a relationship would absolutely stop a sex life dead in its tracks.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

and this Christian would retort to those people that its a filthy lie from the Father of Lies himself and belongs in the pit of hell.

He always twists what God meant for good. 

Its why I wonder what group she's in... some of them are oppressive and NOT Biblical..

You may need to protect your wife from false doctrine Bild.. 

Never would have thunk that one being an ex rocker would ya

but hey... if she is being brainwashed to believe a lie that is ruining your marriage I would be hunting down what that lie is and stomp it in the ground and if that meant digging into doctrine so be it.


----------



## turnera

He is just now reading NMMNG; let's give him time to realize what has been going on and why.


----------



## MarriedTex

bild-a-loco said:


> Her excuse, as posted earlier (but this thread's gotten looong!) was that "she was afraid to get me the wrong gift or something I wouldn't like." So, she got me nothing at all - after having been handed a list of gifts and sources, by me, well before my birthday, which I did at her request.
> 
> As far as your wordage goes, I think it is quite right, as does our therapist, she's just "checked out" for some reason - he doesn't understand it, I don't understand it, and according to her, she doesn't understand it either. :scratchhead:


How many different ways can I say this? 

Through your actions over the years, YOU HAVE TRAINED HER TO BE THIS WAY!!!!

How we are treated is typically equal to the way we accept being treated. Why does she do it? Because she's treated you like cr#p on a regular basis (historically) and she gets little negative feedback for it. In the past, you've rolled with the punches. As a result, she doesn't get dinged too bad when she "mails it in" when dealing with you. So, she gets to be "lazy" and she has no real fear of losing you. It becomes a habit over time. 

The reason why this dysfunction is partially your fault is that you did not nip this in the bud, by calling her out on issues when they were small. You let them fester, build over time. Then when she spits the bit on your 50th birthday, you look like the irrational one because you're complaining about being treated the way she's been treating you for each of the last seven years. 

You've accepted less than her best in your dealings as a couple. She's become accustomed to taking you for granted. Did she get you nice presents when you were dating or in early marriage? You bet she did. What changed? She figured out you were a soft touch and that her life would continue in much the same way even if she didn't push hard on prioritizing your needs. 

She grew selfish. And you did nothing to dislodge her from travelling this selfish path in the relationship. We all give our partners "free passes" when they mess up from time to time. But we all have to know when to say "enough is enough." 

You have finally reached that point. Good for you. It's the first step to progress. But recognize that getting to the point you want will depend on you changing your behavior patterns - as well as her. Try to take the lessons of NMMNG to heart.


----------



## bandit.45

"Spits the bit...." 

My dad always used that phrase. Hadn't heard it in years.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Here's the bottom line to NMMNG: Love in a marriage should never be unconditional love.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

It should be "better than unconditional."

Constructive conditional


----------



## LongWalk

Blossom Leigh said:


> And maybe thats why I keep getting this oppression feeling... She is shut down in self protect mode.
> 
> Has she mentioned anything concerning not feeling safe?


Good question. You didn't want sex with your wife when she dressed seductively. The costume she chose and her manner were not in character, suggesting desperation and anxiety. She put some thought into her attempt, but got shot down. It was as if you did not know each other.

Could it be that your wife's self esteem is lacking?

I don't find your disappointment over the birthday party strange. Fifty is a big one. She should have made you feel special.

Do you see any signs of premature senility in your wife?

Your marriage has reached a crisis point. Doing the 180 has gotten her attention. If your goal is divorce, then you should just roll on to detachment that will give you an exit. But if you want to save your marriage, you need to talk, perhaps in MC, but you should definitely make your communication consistent and meaningful.

What sort of friends does she have in church?

Do you go to services?

Do the people there irritate you?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## murphy5

mmmmmm "filthy, shameful act of submission". sounds hot! I'm IN! :rofl:


----------



## Iver

Can you and your wife go on a vacation together (no kids) and have a good time?

I'm asking because what you have described is someone who really doesn't seem to want to be with you.


----------



## Malaise

bild-a-loco said:


> Like I told her Saturday, until I'm no longer afraid of being hurt by her, I'm staying in my fort behind the couch (borrowed that line from somebody here - love it).



Use it in good health!


----------



## Theseus

Tall Average Guy said:


> Your description to the birthday parties was one big gotcha trap. You threw a big one for her and hinted about what you wanted, then got mad because she did not give it to you. You set up a covert contract and then got mad when she did not follow through.


Tall, as others stated, I think you have a very mistaken view of what a "gotcha trap" is. 

This wasn't a random occasion. His 50th birthday comes whether he wants it or not. That's how chronology works. And it's a very normal thing to celebrate it. 

If he expected a party or a gift but deliberately didn't help her, then it might be considered a trap. But if his description is accurate, he gave her more than enough information to find some kind of a gift. Heck, just googling the phrase "gift for husband" comes up with thousands of ideas. 

And he wasn't upset that she didn't throw a lavish party for him. *He was upset because she did nothing*. What kind of trap is that? All she had to do to avoid the "trap" would be to get him a simple gift. Jeeze.


----------



## Iver

Has your wife seen her doctor for a full examination? 

If there are behavior changes without cause after a certain age a thorough mental and neurological screening needs to be done.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Theseus said:


> Tall, as others stated, I think you have a very mistaken view of what a "gotcha trap" is.
> 
> This wasn't a random occasion. His 50th birthday comes whether he wants it or not. That's how chronology works. And it's a very normal thing to celebrate it.
> 
> If he expected a party or a gift but deliberately didn't help her, then it might be considered a trap. But if his description is accurate, he gave her more than enough information to find some kind of a gift. Heck, just googling the phrase "gift for husband" comes up with thousands of ideas.
> 
> And he wasn't upset that she didn't throw a lavish party for him. *He was upset because she did nothing*. What kind of trap is that? All she had to do to avoid the "trap" would be to get him a simple gift. Jeeze.


If that was the only example, then sure, but it is not. He had the same complaint about their anniversary, culminating in his bemoaning the fact that there was no sex after all that he had done for her. He was upset because he did nice things for him and she did not reward him for that.

A covert contract is doing something for someone with that expectation that they will reciprocate (and thus complete the contract). He set up a nice anniversary and in exchange she was expect to have sex. She did not (thus breaking the contract) and he got upset. That he later tells her what she should do (in the birthday example) does not mean he did not set up the contract in the first place.

I think what you and others are missing is that this is not an either or situation. You are absolutely correct that she is ignoring him and his needs. For some reason, she is unwilling or unable to do these things for him even when he is very clear about what he wants.

But that does not mean that he does not have issues as well. His language speaks strongly to covert contracts. I suspect that bleeds through in his discussions with her and may be a part of the issue. So he needs to clean up his side of the street (along with his depending upon her to make him happy).


----------



## Livvie

Tall Average Guy said:


> A covert contract is doing something for someone with that expectation that they will reciprocate (and thus complete the contract). He set up a nice anniversary and in exchange she was expect to have sex. She did not (thus breaking the contract) and he got upset. That he later tells her what she should do (in the birthday example) does not mean he did not set up the contract in the first place.


Hi,

I have been following this thread and learning a lot about dynamics.

I have a question: How is a covert contract different than expecting reciprocation and/or interest from your spouse? If you set up a nice anniversary celebration for yourself and your partner, isn't being intimate a reasonable hope/expectation? Isn't being upset when your partner doesn't feel the same way a normal emotional response? What makes it a covert contract a opposed to expecting care and reciprocation?

I'm just trying to understand, not being combative!!


----------



## jld

I think being honest and upfront about your expectations makes it not a covert contract. Or just not expecting anything.


----------



## turnera

Livvie said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have been following this thread and learning a lot about dynamics.
> 
> I have a question: How is a covert contract different than expecting reciprocation and/or interest from your spouse? If you set up a nice anniversary celebration for yourself and your partner, isn't being intimate a reasonable hope/expectation? Isn't being upset when your partner doesn't feel the same way a normal emotional response? What makes it a covert contract a opposed to expecting care and reciprocation?
> 
> I'm just trying to understand, not being combative!!


I think the difference comes when, if you DON'T get the reciprocation, you get defensive or upset.


----------



## Livvie

I think being upset when someone doesn't reciprocate or have the same feelings you do is pretty normal, and I think having expectations of care from a partner is normal too...

So I guess the difference is to not make it covert? To conduct yourself always in a way that lets your spouse know you require a caring relationship and that if it's not, it doesn't feel good to you?


----------



## turnera

Yes. I'd go so far as to point out to your partner that it's not unconditional love, that he/she can't just act any way he/she wants and have you still there waiting for him. That you respect yourself enough to have a tipping point for mutual consideration. That's what the OP is dealing with now.


----------



## Livvie

Got it, thanks!


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Livvie said:


> I think being *upset when someone doesn't reciprocate or have the same feelings you do* is pretty normal, and I think having expectations of care from a partner is normal too...


I think these can be two separate things that demonstrate the point.

Expecting reciprocating to a specific act is a contract. Let's say I get my wife flowers one day. But I don't tell her when I give them to her that by accepting these flowers, I am expecting that we will have sex that night. When I get mad because she did not follow through on her half of on the bargain, I have created a covert contract that is unhealthy for me (and her and our relationship). It is covert because I did not tell her about the "deal" at the time it was entered into.

Alternatively, if I give her flowers because I love her and that is what a good partner does (but with no unstated expectation that she does something specific for me), but she never does things to show that she loves me, that is evidence that she does not have the same feelings for me. Being upset about that is normal. Establishing boundaries is part of a healthy relationship. That may include addressing the issue as well as no longer doing some or all of those things for her.


----------



## naiveonedave

tall - that is not what the OP did. He gave her a good party. Then he suggested what to do for his birthday. She basically did nothing. And he got mad. He got mad because he made his needs known and she chose to ignore them on a significant life event. She broke an overt contract, similar to forgetting an anniversary.


----------



## bild-a-loco

naiveonedave said:


> tall - that is not what the OP did. He gave her a good party. Then he suggested what to do for his birthday. She basically did nothing. And he got mad. He got mad because he made his needs known and she chose to ignore them on a significant life event. She broke an overt contract, similar to forgetting an anniversary.


Bingo! Except I wouldn't say I was "mad" so much as I was hurt by the complete lack of effort. Adding more fuel to the story, I mentioned she picked up the 6" cake at the local grocery store on her way home that day, she also bought my birthday cards (one from her, one from my daughter) at the same grocery store that evening on the way home - I know this because she left the receipt and her debit card out on the hutch in our kitchen right next to where we lay our car keys, so I saw it the next morning. Thus, she didn't even buy my birthday card(s) until around 6:00 pm that day. 

Regarding the anniversary, which was an off-shoot of my original rant, I do not consider that a "covert contract" in any way. We've been on rocky ground and it was our 20th anniversary, she was looking very forward to it. Got the fancy suite, got the fancy dinner, and before we left home and were packing to go, she pulled out several racy lingerie assortments for me to choose from, asking me which one I'd prefer her to bring. Also, to be blunt, I told her to pick whatever goodies she wanted from our bags of "toys", which she did, and off we went for our fancy anniversary. When she got tired of shopping we went off to the nice restaurant, then she had two chocolate martinis, then back to the suite. Fifteen minutes later she was sound asleep - no lingerie ever got taken out of the bags, no "toys" were ever produced, just an "I'm really tired, just let me rest for a few minutes" which turned into the remainder of the night, with another tearful apology in the morning. And ironically, an anniversary card in which she wrote that she was going to try and be more attentive and she realized that she had been taking me for granted - literally - I can scan it and show it to you if you'd like. 

Regardless, as I type this, she's at a new therapist and she's reading a blog online called "breakup preventor" or something to that effect. She was looking at her e-mails next to me last night and she's apparently seeking advice there, wherever that is, so I presume that is a good sign. 

I'm somewhere around page 40 in the book, so far, so good, so thanks to everyone who recommended it. Thanks again to all and take care!


----------



## Iver

naiveonedave said:


> tall - that is not what the OP did. He gave her a good party. Then he suggested what to do for his birthday. She basically did nothing. And he got mad. He got mad because he made his needs known and she chose to ignore them on a significant life event. She broke an overt contract, similar to forgetting an anniversary.


This nails it. I can understand the religious issue affecting thier life (not saying I agree but at least I understand it) but what naiveonedave is describing - her choosing to ignore a significant event in his life, I don't understand why she would do that. (and I mean the real reason, not the hokum she came up with to explain herself.)

I keep wondering what happened to cause this in that her behavior seems ... passive aggressive? deliberately hurtful? really sh***y? (I think you know what I'm trying to convey here.)

That's why I asked about a full medical check up just to rule out any health issues.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

naiveonedave said:


> tall - that is not what the OP did. He gave her a good party. Then he suggested what to do for his birthday. She basically did nothing. And he got mad. He got mad because he made his needs known and she chose to ignore them on a significant life event. She broke an overt contract, similar to forgetting an anniversary.


No, that is not an overt contract. An overt contract is him saying "I am planning on doing something nice for you, but will only do it if you reciprocate. Will you?" She then gets to decide if she wants to enter into that agreement.

But his posts indicate that he gave her the party and planned the anniversary with the secret expectation that she would give him something in return. The covert contract is not because she ignored him afterward. It started when he did something with the unstated expectation that she would reciprocate. 

He planned a great day for her on their anniversary and she did not give him sex. That is what he posted - he did all this stuff and she could not even be bothered to have sex in return. The covert contract was his doing that while expecting that she would give him sex in return.* She never got the chance to enter into the overt contract, because she did not know accepting the party was predicated on having sex with him.

I continue to agree that she has real issues and a lot of fault. But I see an OP doing a lot of bad stuff on his end as well. Ignoring that won't help him.

* Set aside that idea that she has been this way for years and yet he remains surprised by her behavior.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Tall Average Guy said:


> No, that is not an overt contract. An overt contract is him saying "I am planning on doing something nice for you, but will only do it if you reciprocate. Will you?" She then gets to decide if she wants to enter into that agreement.
> 
> But his posts indicate that he gave her the party and planned the anniversary with the secret expectation that she would give him something in return. The covert contract is not because she ignored him afterward. It started when he did something with the unstated expectation that she would reciprocate.
> 
> He planned a great day for her on their anniversary and she did not give him sex. That is what he posted - he did all this stuff and she could not even be bothered to have sex in return. The covert contract was his doing that while expecting that she would give him sex in return.* She never got the chance to enter into the overt contract, because she did not know accepting the party was predicated on having sex with him.
> 
> I continue to agree that she has real issues and a lot of fault. But I see an OP doing a lot of bad stuff on his end as well. Ignoring that won't help him.
> 
> * Set aside that idea that she has been this way for years and yet he remains surprised by her behavior.


Tall, I agree with much of what you write when it comes to relationship dynamics. However, I don't think his anniversary was set up to be a covert contract based on what he wrote in his latest post.



> Regarding the anniversary, which was an off-shoot of my original rant, I do not consider that a "covert contract" in any way. We've been on rocky ground and it was our 20th anniversary, she was looking very forward to it. Got the fancy suite, got the fancy dinner, and before we left home and were packing to go, she pulled out several racy lingerie assortments for me to choose from, asking me which one I'd prefer her to bring. Also, to be blunt, I told her to pick whatever goodies she wanted from our bags of "toys", which she did, and off we went for our fancy anniversary.


In this case, I'd say his wife was deceitful by talking about the lingerie and picking out some favorite toys. Loco was talking about sex that night, and she clearly knew what his expectations were. Now it's clear that she ultimately sabotaged the plans. Whether she did this deliberately, subconsciously or unintentionally - only she would know. However, she clearly did not follow thru on what looked like a clear plan - by the both of them - to have a night of passion on their anniversary.

No doubt that loco has a few issues he can work on to improve himself (like we all do). However, I think this case is not about covert contracts based on what we know so far. Maybe he's used them in other circumstances, but I would say not in the case of the OP and the special anniversary.


----------



## naiveonedave

being married is an overt contract to see to celebrating major life events like child birth, birthdays, anniversaries, etc.

He has stated repeatedly that he isn't engaging i this and his posts support it. 

He may have issues, but covert contracts are not it. Never has he 'done the dishes' for sex. that would be covert. Hosting a b-day party or xmas party for your wife is not and he expecting nothing from it, please read his posts.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

naiveonedave said:


> being married is an overt contract to see to celebrating major life events like child birth, birthdays, anniversaries, etc.
> 
> He has stated repeatedly that he isn't engaging i this and his posts support it.
> 
> He may have issues, but covert contracts are not it. Never has he 'done the dishes' for sex. that would be covert. Hosting a b-day party or xmas party for your wife is not and he expecting nothing from it, please read his posts.


I agree it is not productive to continue this discussion if the OP denies engaging in them and won't consider them further.


----------



## MarriedTex

It's irrelevant whether the specific event of the birthday was a covert or overt contract. For the sake of argument, let's say the 50th birthday was not a covert contract.

Either way, it seems the relationship is littered with a host of other covert contracts that have poisoned the relationship along the way. To deny that this is an issue that is complicating his relationship with his wife would be a mistake.

He's just at the stage where the accumulation of resentment is too much. He's finally speaking up where he hadn't spoken up before. Nothing wrong with that. 

But a lasting solution does not come from jumping up and down and saying "Wife, you have to be nicer to me." And it does not come from being the stoic hero who takes heaps of emotional abuse (that is what she is doing to him) in the hopes that she will ultimately recognize him for the martyr that he is.

It comes from dealing with people in an honest and authentic way. When you're happy, you tell them that you're happy. When you're mad, you tell them that, too. That gives your partner the information they need to treat you better. Whether they actually use that information to treat you better is another question. You cross that bridge of relationship evaluation when you come to it.

The only thing you can control is the way you act. Act with honesty, authenticity and transparency, and everything will ultimately sort itself out. The wrong way to approach this, though, is to assume that wife is worthless slug and you're the knight in shining armor. Recognize your role in driving these dynamics and it accelerate your progress on the path to recovery.

Remember, if you have one finger pointed at her, there's three more fingers pointed straight back at you.


----------



## Wolf1974

Tall Average Guy said:


> I think these can be two separate things that demonstrate the point.
> *
> Expecting reciprocating to a specific act is a contract. Let's say I get my wife flowers one day. But I don't tell her when I give them to her that by accepting these flowers, I am expecting that we will have sex that night. When I get mad because she did not follow through on her half of on the bargain, I have created a covert contract that is unhealthy for me (and her and our relationship). It is covert because I did not tell her about the "deal" at the time it was entered into.*
> 
> Alternatively, if I give her flowers because I love her and that is what a good partner does (but with no unstated expectation that she does something specific for me), but she never does things to show that she loves me, that is evidence that she does not have the same feelings for me. Being upset about that is normal. Establishing boundaries is part of a healthy relationship. That may include addressing the issue as well as no longer doing some or all of those things for her.


While I 100% agree that your example above is a covert contract I don't believe the OP being shafted on his birthday is the same. I believe that as a spouse you do have an obligations to recognize big and important events....turning 50 would be one such thing. So regardless of what he did for her that should be his expectation of her and vice versa. 

We all have expectations in our relationships and because our relationships are different our expectations are different. To use your example again I buy my GF flowers cause it makes her happy. It doesn't do anything for me but hey makes her happy. I do expect sex but I expect it because she loves me and loves to have sex with me, Not because I bought her flowers. If I ever felt I had to buy flowers to get laid time to think about ending the relationship. So this is our dynamic in our relationship and others may vary.

But birthdays, promotions, anniversaries and so on are big life events and need to be celebrated. I have lived in a relationship when they weren't and it sucks. If you can't count on your spouse to recognize those who can you rely on?


----------



## tulsy

Wolf1974 said:


> ....But birthdays, promotions, anniversaries and so on are big life events and need to be celebrated. I have lived in a relationship when they weren't and it sucks. If you can't count on your spouse to recognize those who can you rely on?


:iagree:

Well said...Totally agree.


----------



## turnera

Yeah, ignoring something important like a milestone and then giving a lame excuse is beyond hurtful and should be addressed.


----------



## Enginerd

Loco:

You gave me the wrong impression in your initial posts when I questioned how interesting you are because of your quiet hobby. Your life sounds very interesting and you've probably had 10x the women I've had if it's all true. I don't see how any women can maintain the lifestyle you've described over a lifetime. At least not with one man anyway. So, in the real world men don't quibble over the effort put into a birthday or the quality of a gift. Especially men with children to support. Typically mature men don't want a big fuss made for any reason. I think because of your background your expectations of her are unreasonably high. Your attention wh*re threshold was raised in your musician days and in those private rooms that you want to rationalize as "classy". Hair bands were pretty damn funny looking back. Misplaced vanity comes to mind. This is all just symptoms of a mid life crisis. Time to get over yourself like the rest of us.


----------



## Iver

Enginerd said:


> Loco:
> 
> You gave me the wrong impression in your initial posts when I questioned how interesting you are because of your quiet hobby. Your life sounds very interesting and you've probably had 10x the women I've had if it's all true. I don't see how any women can maintain the lifestyle you've described over a lifetime. At least not with one man anyway. So, in the real world men don't quibble over the effort put into a birthday or the quality of a gift. Especially men with children to support. Typically mature men don't want a big fuss made for any reason. I think because of your background your expectations of her are unreasonably high. Your attention wh*re threshold was raised in your musician days and in those private rooms that you want to rationalize as "classy". Hair bands were pretty damn funny looking back. Misplaced vanity comes to mind. This is all just symptoms of a mid life crisis. Time to get over yourself like the rest of us.



I don't particularly care for large parties and I don't want my wife to get me a gift but if I got a grocery store cake for my 50th I'd have been seriously bent out of shape.

Maybe I'm a cake wh*re but at the least go to a decent bakery and get me something edible!

He's not being unreasonable.


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## Plan 9 from OS

Enginerd said:


> Loco:
> 
> You gave me the wrong impression in your initial posts when I questioned how interesting you are because of your quiet hobby. Your life sounds very interesting and you've probably had 10x the women I've had if it's all true. I don't see how any women can maintain the lifestyle you've described over a lifetime. At least not with one man anyway. So, *in the real world men don't quibble over the effort put into a birthday or the quality of a gift. Especially men with children to support. Typically mature men don't want a big fuss made for any reason. *I think because of your background your expectations of her are unreasonably high. *Your attention wh*re threshold was raised in your musician days and in those private rooms that you want to rationalize as "classy". Hair bands were pretty damn funny looking back. *Misplaced vanity comes to mind. This is all just symptoms of a mid life crisis. Time to get over yourself like the rest of us.


Excellent analysis, Captain Stereotype...  Also, pretty insulting when you try to turn his past into a joke.


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## murphy5

Wolf1974 said:


> But birthdays, promotions, anniversaries and so on are big life events and need to be celebrated. I have lived in a relationship when they weren't and it sucks. If you can't count on your spouse to recognize those who can you rely on?


There is always the woman down the street!:rofl:

If a spouse deliberately sours her SO's love for her, the consequences can be dire indeed. So she blows off his 50th birthday....and a year later she is saying "why did he leave me?..."


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## that_girl

That just sucks (I only read your OP). My husband somewhat did the same thing on Friday (my bday...didn't even mention it until he got home and by then I was PISSED). We've had this talk before and he KNOWS holidays/bdays are important to me and still he did NOTHING.

We got choices, man....I'm making mine soon.


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## that_girl

turnera said:


> Yes. I'd go so far as to point out to your partner that it's not unconditional love, that he/she can't just act any way he/she wants and have you still there waiting for him. That you respect yourself enough to have a tipping point for mutual consideration. That's what the OP is dealing with now.


Totally.

I also think, at least in my relationship, that I had to pull back a lot. I was so into it. So involved. I did birthdays like crazy. I did Christmas and holidays and celebrated his promotions, etc.

I am not looking for tit for tat but a freakin "Happy birthday, babe!" that morning would have been nice. I got store flowers that were half dead and a card where he signed his LAST NAME TOO. Inside the card he wrote "I love you even though I don't show it". MOTHER EFFER. I had some loud words about that.  I was so irritated.

I'm big on thought. My gifts for people are thoughtful and mean something and I don't give in hopes of receiving. But for 7 years I have given to this man and he can barely remember my birthday or take the time to make it special.

THAT makes me think and that is why I don't think we'll be together much longer. I was invested, he hardly was. Hard to hold together a loving marriage alone. I can love myself but if I'm going to be in a relationship, I should feel loved from them as well.


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## Proud Mom of 1

I too live in a very difficult marriage. I highly recommend Jimmy Evans @ Marriage Today (marriagetoday.com).


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## LongWalk

Wonder what happened to the OP.


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