# Fog



## ilovechocolate (Jan 16, 2012)

A question to the WS - have read loads about "The Fog" is it really that addictive? Do you really not see the damage and pain on the way? And when it s all over Was it really worth it?

Just cant understand how something built on lies and deception can be so "good"


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Yes, it's addictive as hell.

Dopamine high. 

You see the damage...once reality hits. 

Most people would say it's not worth it--but the ones that say that are the ones that truly want their marriage to work and/or don't like that it happened. Some say it was worth it (Brangelina is an example).


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## ilovechocolate (Jan 16, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> Yes, it's addictive as hell.
> 
> Dopamine high.
> 
> ...




thank you for answering - my H said he could nt help himself - he even broke it off twice and twice went back . . .He said he would be driving over there feeling guilty as he went to meet her but would still go to her house.


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## Ingalls (Mar 7, 2012)

Do you and your H talk about this during MC sessions or just at anytime?


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## ilovechocolate (Jan 16, 2012)

We do talk about it but as a BS it hard to understand the way the mind of a WS works being able to pick the brains of people on here to validate what he tells me helps


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

brutally addictive. 

if you've seen that thread & link in my signature below about fog (never say never), you'll see its got several links in it that refer to acticles on the addictive properties of dopamine.


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## working_together (Oct 16, 2011)

ilovechocolate said:


> A question to the WS - have read loads about "The Fog" is it really that addictive? Do you really not see the damage and pain on the way? And when it s all over Was it really worth it?
> 
> Just cant understand how something built on lies and deception can be so "good"


The fog I was in was the craziest state I've ever been in, I was totally clueless to everything in my life and what was important. I was all about feeding my addiction. The pain I caused, well, you can just imagine. I kicked my ex out just before x-mas, lied to him about having an AP, didn't care that the guy was married and had a family.

And now???? Totally not worth it, if only I had not been so cowardly, I would have just ended a crappy marriage, or at least had some leverage to make my ex understand that we needed counseling, but I lost all that with my affair.

I can't even remember what the hell I was thinking, how heartless and cruel I was to someone I supposedly loved.

It exists.

My AP was even more in the fog than I was, and asked me to marry him once, a detail no one knows.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

I'll third Pit and Jellybeans response. I would never have believed it had I not experienced it. Rationally it makes no sense but it's true nonetheless.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

working_together said:


> My AP was even more in the fog than I was, and asked me to marry him once, a detail no one knows.


My married with two kids AP asked me to marry her also. Despite the fact that I was also married with two kids. Nothing erases reality in favor of fantasy like affair fog.


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## Ingalls (Mar 7, 2012)

ilovechocolate said:


> We do talk about it but as a BS it hard to understand the way the mind of a WS works being able to pick the brains of people on here to validate what he tells me helps


Good. I should have been more clear on "why" I was asking: I didn't know if he said he didn't know what he was doing just in normal discussions with you or if a counselor drew it out of him? Just curious! 

[we just aren't to the point yet of details and/or how he felt and I'm anxious to get there is all ]

Nice to hear sigma, jelly and others confirm what the books are saying is true.


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## ilovechocolate (Jan 16, 2012)

Yes, it does help so much coming on here and talking to people in the same situation .


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I'll jump in and confirm as well. And what kills me now is that I *knew* about how affairs work and everything, and STILL did it anyway! 

Here's what I can say about my personal fog. The way it begins is usually slow enough that you don't think it's dangerous. My personal weakness was that we had a miscarriage and then found out we couldn't have kids, and in the aftermath of that, our sex life died down and I felt ignored. Well, I didn't want to be a dried up old prune yet, and the OM acted like I was interesting and fresh. I was weak in the sense that I should have been personally aware enough to know that was a weakspot for me, and I didn't protect myself or my marriage from it. 

So what happens is that day-by-day small lines are crossed (and justified) and day-by-day the loyal spouse may see things but the disloyal just doesn't. I know for me, it's not like I hold ANYTHING back now or try to even cover myself, and yet I just do not remember every detail and can't piece together every date and minute. I remember it more like I remember everything. 

BUT for me the one thing that really snapped me out of it and was the end was that one day, I *saw* my Dear Hubby. Before that it was like he was around but I could not see his face. I think I just came around the corner and caught him when I wasn't trying to "not see" him and he wasn't trying to be strong in front of me (or whatever)...and I *SAW* the grief and sorrow and hurt in his eyes and on his face and MAN! I just couldn't do that to him! I knew it would be hard--like drug withdrawal--but I couldn't keep going. 

Sooo... I stopped. And I didn't stop "all at once" but the first day was NC with the OM...the next day NC with friends who knew us...the next day NC with online friends and so on. Not that I drew it out or tried to still hear about him, but I didn't think at the time "Oh hey--I also need to block every one of my old friends. Oh hey--I also need to block facebook. Oh hey I also need to change my email."


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

My wife has told me that she literally felt like a drug addict when she was in her affair. The brain chemical released is dopamine. Its the same chemical released when you do cocaine. That's why just like drug addicts people in affairs will do anything to feed their addiction. Although I've never experienced it myself I saw Morrigan going through the withdrawal symptoms. Its damned real.


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## Wolfgar (Nov 15, 2011)

The fog is a frightening experience. You get to witness the person you love transform into a cold heartless monster, welling to throw everything that matters in your life away for short term excitement 

But almost always, after the fog clears and the person you remember returns...they have no explanation for it. Instead the pain and scars from their selfish actions forever remain...


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## Lone Star (Feb 2, 2012)

Thanks for the explaination Wolfgar. My STBXH acts as if me and ours sons don't exist. That has been so mind blowing and frustrating for me. Two of the boys have said to hell with him and the third is trying but gets no real conversation from him other than the standard how was your day crap. I hope that I never experience fog, it appears that people that do have no idea of the damage and pain they are causing. I just thought maybe the STBXH was a cold heartless monster that doesn't care. Maybe he is.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

I just dont see it,not to sound like Mr.Spock but its soo not logical,you risk everything,childrends future,hurt everyone around you,close and extended family,I dont get it,I guess it must really be like a drug but still....no
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

It's like you aren't really yourself..kinda like you forget about everyone else..nothing even matters anymore..When in the fog you're clueless then bam when you wake up it's hard to believe you really hurt your family..something you nevver thought you would do and you can't forgive yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lone Star (Feb 2, 2012)

I think it must be like a drug. My STBXH has never been like he is now and we've been married 20 years. I have said many times through the ordeal that I have no idea who he is, I don't feel like I know him at all and futhermore, the person he is now is not someone I want to know. It has been very hard to deal with and try to understand how a person could change so drastically but then I question myself as to if I ever really knew him. I think I probably did know him up until about a year and a half ago. Something is wrong with him because this is not his character, most everyone that knows him is shocked by his actions.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

calvin said:


> I just dont see it,not to sound like Mr.Spock but its soo not logical,you risk everything,childrends future,hurt everyone around you,close and extended family,I dont get it,I guess it must really be like a drug but still....no
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You know, for a long time I had a difficult time understanding the thought process that Morigan was going through when she had her affair. Then several years ago I had some health issues and I was given a medication intravenously in the hospital and a pill form to take home. It was called Dilaudid. When I was on it I didn't care what happened to anyone or anything. If someone had cut off my arm I probably would have giggled. Morrigan said that I would say and do things that made absolutely no sense yet I thought I was functioning perfectly. And the scary part was that I could function or at least it looked like I could. I could drive, cook myself food, work around the house, whatever. But I was irrational. Dilaudid is a derivative of opium very similar to morphine. The reason that it affected me in that way is that a side effect of the drug is very powerful euphoria. The same kind of euphoria that is caused by dopamine in the brain. After that experience I could see how the effects of dompaine high could cause someone to act irrationally and make damaging and senseless choices. For me that was a clarifying moment in my understanding of Morrigan's affair and how she could do the things she did.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Well, I'm fascinated by the dopamine reward circuit and how it physically changes the brain. I think it's so interesting that an affair works like any addiction in that respect. Not that it just looks the same, that it is the same.

But I agree, just like we don't let an alcoholic walk away from the terrible things they do with the excuse that they were drunk, we must hold the unfaithful responsible for all of their choices.

Still, once you perceive the secretive deception of affairs as an addiction, it explains a LOT. It doesn't give them an excuse. It just puts it all into context.

For us, it really was like invasion of the body snatchers. While I continue to verify that he's NC, it lines up with how he treats me; my husband and love who I married years ago is finally back.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Very well put Beowulf.Thank you,I almost understand...almost. There is no rehab for this.Or is there?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

calvin said:


> Very well put Beowulf.Thank you,I almost understand...almost. There is no rehab for this.Or is there?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Funny you should mention that. There should be rehab for affair highs shouldn't there. Actually considering how prevelent affairs are these days wouldn't it make sense for someone to come up with an AA type program for BS and WS. For the WS we can call it IA (Infidelity Anonymous) and for the BS we can have In Anon instead of Al Anon.

I actually went through a slight case of withdrawal when I finally stopped the dilaudid. Had the shakes and really bad headaches. It sucked. I was going to suggest you have your doctor give you some to see what its like for yourself but then I thought about those withdrawals and said no way. You'll just have to take my word for it.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

calvin said:


> Very well put Beowulf.Thank you,I almost understand...almost. There is no rehab for this.Or is there?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Actually, I've come to find locally there are several specialized counselors that work with couples struggling with infidelity. And by now you will not be surprised that they also work with porn and sex addicts, too. When I've spoken to them by phone it is VERY refreshing to have them understand the addictive nature of these relationships. Unlike the MC we worked with before who wasted months of precious time and money (and all the while my WS was still in his EA, unbeknownst to me).

We will be meeting with such an specialized counselor in a couple of weeks, they will be meeting with my WS first for some sessions alone before I start coming for joint counseling at a later point. (I am also in IC.)


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

ilovechocolate said:


> A question to the WS - have read loads about "The Fog" is it really that addictive? Do you really not see the damage and pain on the way? And when it s all over Was it really worth it?
> 
> Just cant understand how something built on lies and deception can be so "good"


Yes it is that addictive. It took me more than four weeks of withdrawal and then reality set in. Dopamine and Oxytocin brain chemicals. Think of cocain. No joke.

You are in denial. Now FWIW I was in an EA. 

Worth it? That does not really apply to me. It almost ruined my marriage. It was not something I was looking for. Most of these things contrary to popular belief start off with no intention of being unfaithful. Having poor boundaries is an enabler. The WS is in denial.

It took me a dozen years to fully forgive myself at the urging of my wife. I think the majority of real life EAs are like what I experienced. Too few people see them for what they are. Then they progress into more serious affairs. The thing is that the key to stopping the more serious betrayals is to catch this early while the WS can still be reached through the FOG. Now no betrayal is good. But as the affair progresses the betrayals run deeper and are harder to stop.

Cocain usage is addictive but I would argue it is not good.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

ilovechocolate said:


> thank you for answering - my H said he could nt help himself - he even broke it off twice and twice went back . . .He said he would be driving over there feeling guilty as he went to meet her but would still go to her house.


I ended up quiting my job. Yes when one goes through withdrawal you crave the high. Just like withdrawing from drugs.

BTW, anti depressants can help.

This sared the [email protected] out of me. I was sure I was bulletproof. I was wrong. I lost most of my self respect. BUT I came a way with a healthy respect for better boundaries. I avoid inappropriate situations now.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

iheartlife said:


> Actually, I've come to find locally there are several specialized counselors that work with couples struggling with infidelity. And by now you will not be surprised that they also work with porn and sex addicts, too. When I've spoken to them by phone it is VERY refreshing to have them understand the addictive nature of these relationships. Unlike the MC we worked with before who wasted months of precious time and money (and all the while my WS was still in his EA, unbeknownst to me).
> 
> We will be meeting with such an specialized counselor in a couple of weeks, they will be meeting with my WS first for some sessions alone before I start coming for joint counseling at a later point. (I am also in IC.)


Excellent. It's so hard to find a good experienced counselor. It is very much an addiction and should be treated as such. But like an addiction you can't excuse the behavior of the addict. It does add some context to things though. Good luck iheartlife.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Entropy, you sound just like Morrigan. Its strange to say this but after coming to TAM I have gained a new found appreciation for what she must have gone through in order to break it off. It must have taken some willpower. Of course when this was still raw I wouldn't have had any empathy for her nor should I have. But still its nice to appreciate how hard she fought for us.


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

Thankyou for this thread.
My H and I are in R after his year long EA turned PA. we are only 3 weeks in but things are going well.
Understanding the fog issue is helping me put things into perspective. My H also turned into someone that I just didn't recognise and the hurt he caused me was at times unbearable. For a year he told me he didn't love me anymore and we had no future. Now he says he never stopped loving me and wanting me but his head was in a very bad place and hr just couldn't see what he was doing. I questioned him on this and he said he honestly just can't explain it to me. That he thought he loved the OW but now he knows henever did and that it was all false but what we have is real.
He was in a very deep fog, so thanks all for giving your insight on it. It's helping a lot!
DG
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ilovechocolate (Jan 16, 2012)

Ok, so I understand that it s like a drug but what is? Is it the sex? Is it the danger and excitment? Is it the "newness" of the relationship? Is it being flattered by another person?


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

I think more than anything it's being in a relationship that has no obligation or need to have any connection to reality. It's all fantasy so you make it, you and your AP, whatever you want them to be. And different than just day dreams you have a partner to help you create this fantasy. You reenforce to each other that it's not fantasy, that it's actually real. 

For example, my AP is a lying cheater, I'm a lying cheater - no wait don't bother me with reality - we're in affair land. We're not lying cheaters, we're soul mates so that makes it all ok. We're both wonderful people. In fact we're lucky, we found each other and can now be together, never mind two families and four kids in the way. Leaving my family will cost me my job, my life, my financial resources, no problem. We'll move to a Caribbean island, I'll open a dive shop and she'll sell straw hats on the beach, as long as we're together it will all be fine (footnote, note that there are none of the four kids on this island).

See what I mean? For the most part those are actual fantasies and rationalizations my AP and I used. Who wouldn't love a world like that? No reality, insurmountable problems don't exist - just ignore them, the ability to completely change at your hearts desire. The secrecy, the sex, the excitement, the "connection" are all a part of it for sure, but I think the world an affair becomes is the biggest draw, especially since now that you're in an affair the real world now involves confronting and accepting that you are a cheater. Why face all that unpleasantness, just stay in your affair world where everything is sunshine and tulips...... But then your wife ask, who's Sue?? Oh sh!t!!


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Some things my WS said to me after we started true R (which was post DD#2):

"The one thing that I will never forget was when you said that our relationship existed without the problems of paying the bills, fixing the broken toilet, washing the dirty dishes, denting the car..." I had warned him after DD#1 that his infatuation was mostly possible because of these things. 

I also said, you know, she cheated with you, she would most likely cheat ON you. And he said (again OUT of the fog), 'yes, I thought of that.'

WS told AP he wanted to go to Cuba, of all places. They would make lists of far flung countries like Uruguay that they would travel to some day. WS was going to transfer his job to another city and she would go to grad school there. Never mind that his entire career is built around our current city and he'd have to commute back here constantly...I'm sure that would have gone over SO well.  And I thought his current 45 minute commute was bad :rofl:

I also have asked him how they were compatible in terms of religion, child rearing, and other core values. He admitted that I am more like him in all those areas (and I don't think he was buttering me up, he's pretty brutally honest now). But, you know, she was his 'soulmate' 'love of his life' and 'best friend in the whole world.' Wow, it feels good to say that without busting into tears.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

iheartlife said:


> I also have asked him how they were compatible in terms of religion, child rearing, and other core values. He admitted that I am more like him in all those areas


Don't take this the wrong way but that made me laugh. Two cheaters would almost never stop to try to figure out what kind of person their AP actually was. That's reality - why bother? Just make them what you want them to be or at least don't acknowledge the parts of them that aren't. 

I remember having the thought, "Sue (my AP) is so awesome. She loves all the things I love. She loves this, she loves that, she loves this singer" and so on. And then in the next instant I had the thought, "but wait, my wife loves all those same things to and she's not a lying cheater, WTF am I doing??" And then the fog kicked back in and I thought, "but Sue is so perfect and wonderful...." and I was right back in. I blew right past that reality speed bump.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Sigma explains the thought process extremely well. The biological process is rather simple. Man meets woman. Man is attracted to woman. Woman is attracted to man. If each is already in a committed relationship and all is well man does not pursue woman and woman does not pursue man. In most people good levels of oxytocin (the feeling of closeness you get after sex) is enough to prevent the brain from looking for dopamine shots. So in stable relationships attraction usually stays at that level and advances no further. But....

If their relationships are not going well they turn to each other. In other words if the man is not receiving regular brain shots of oxytocin (bonding) and dopamine (attraction) from his wife and woman is not receiving regular brain shots from her husband they turn to each other (because they are already attracted) for those brain stimulants.

Sometimes people in relationships think everything is going well. Maybe from their end it may be but if their spouse isn't receiving the regular brain chemicals that they should be receiving they are susceptible to an outside attraction. Negative emotions toward the spouse can prevent oxytocin and dopaimine from being released (natures way of rejecting an unworthy mate). That's why communication is so important in any long term relationship. So that negative emotions do not block the biology of pair bonding.

Once the APs start getting the brain shots from each other their attraction turns into infatuation (large doses of dopamine). This forces them to focus all the energy on each other in order to cement them as a couple (like nature intended for mating purposes). They begin to lose focus and ignore everything and everyone other than the one providing the dopamine. Wives, husbands, kids, family, friends, none of it matters so long as they have each other to provide the brain chemicals. That's the addiction and why it is so hard to break free. Because to do so is actually going against every instinct you have. It doesn't matter that they might have no future together. It doesn't matter that they are hurting everyone. All that matters is the drug. All that matters is that nature wants them to mate and they are drawn into the mating ritual.

It takes a great deal of effort to stop. And usually it can't be done by the addict alone. They need an intervention by others to snap them back into reality (why we advocate exposure). Once their cognitive skills have started to take hold again they can try to resist but they are confused often running back to the source of their addiction. Back to the pusher of the drugs (their AP). They will be confused and unsure until the drug leaves their system.

Once it does they are horrified to see what they have actually done. Many times this is why people divorce. Because the one that has caused the damage can't bring themselves to admit they have done this terrible thing (remorse). For some its easier to blame the injured party (rationalize it was the BS's fault) and seek divorce rather than take responsibility. It takes a lot of effort and a lot of self examination to reconcile because not only do you have to deal with the guilt of what you have done but you have to heal the person you have injured. Now that I'm beyond the pain of betrayal I've come to appreciate just how much of a struggle it was for Morrigan to show remorse and work so hard at reconciliation. That's why I know she would never do it again because of the effort she had to expend. Many can't do what she did and those that can are really strong and quality people in spite of their bad choices.


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

Excellent posts Sigma and Beowulf .
As always insightful and indeed very helpful.
Thankyou
DG
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Beowulf: So well put. I think that is such a tragedy, the WSs who go so far round the bend with remorse. As if that was a way to atone!  

Another tactic many WS's like mine do is distancing mechanisms to PREVENT re-bonding with their spouse. I have never had so many petty arguments in my life as in the past 3 years, he was constantly myteriously irritated with me and I reached a point where I thought I couldn't read him at all and this was our fate.

Sigma: no I didn't take that wrong  another thing I've since figured out is that WS doesn't know the correct month AP was born in, the names / genders / ages etc of her closest relatives beyond her husband, etc etc. He put no effort into getting to know the real her. How can you explain 'soul mate' and zero knowledge of her history, background, and what made her tick? Infatuation, fog, but never, ever love.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

For me it was the attention, the compliments, someone whom I thought was really in love with me..weird how it was all about me tho..how I came out of the fog was the OM stopped talking to me after I left hubby which made me so angry because it was all about me..I claimed to love this guy but honestly never cared about anything in his own personal life..it was what I even admitted was my selfish phase..Why is it I worry about hubby if he is unwell or hurt or ect.. With the OM it was about what I got from him..who cares about anything else..hard to explain
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cantmove (Feb 20, 2012)

Is it possible that someone still in the fog could read this thread and come out of it or at least begin to see things more clearly? My stbxwh is fence sitting, KNows he loves me and when with me wants to be there but hasn't given up AP and thinks that he loves her too. He doesn't want to deal with the reality of the situation. He acts like if just stays busy and doesn't deal with anything he can just go on like this forever without making a choice. He has agreed to go to the mc by himself this week. Not sure why ? I filed for divorce three weeks ago and ever since then he has been confused. Prior to my filing he was adamant that divorce was the answer and we should get lawyers. He is clearlly in the fog but if I thought it would help for him to read this thread I would get him to.What do you guys think?


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Before I joined TAM when I was heavy in the fog hubby had me read a few things on here..I thought wow that person sounds like me..but it didn't help..too far gone
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

This is a very interesting and informative thread.
For CSS she could'nt or did'nt want to see the changes I had mad to be a better husband,she thought everything wrong in our marriage was 100% my fault,even after I outed the EA she still could'nt see the OM was a player and a womanizer,I really didnt think I was going to reach her.OM had nothing to offer really except the bs lines he kept feeding her,no home,no car,no future,not even an apartment.She knew he was seeing other woman but that didnt matter to her either.In her mind it was the cruel hand of fate that pulled them apart senior year in high school ( not him going too prison for three felonies)OM had been kicked out of other womans houses quite a bit.CSS tried to get me to leave or home.
There was no way I was doing that so Om c,ould worm his way into my family and my home and reap the rewards of all myhard work.I took me picking her and her stuff up,stoping her from going to a mental hospital and bringing her home and tacking care of her to sever the connection with OM,even ater she was home it took another 6-7 weeks for her to completely come out of the fog and start to admit her share of the troubles in our marriage,hell I'm still showing her how OM lies dont add up,things she believed about him last week she no longer does now.
I never had any idea how STRONG the grip of the fog could be! I feel she is about 95% out it now.God it took a lot of work to get her to wake up.I still dont completely understand how one could risk EVERTHING for a few months of this high.I dont think I'll never really understand it fully.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

calvin, you and I will never understand it fully. The best we can ever hope is to understand that it is not only possible but probable what the fog can do to someone. I do not fully understand gravity, I cannot see gravity, can't taste or hear gravity. But if I jump off a tall building I'll sure as hell feel the effects of gravity. Our fWW felt the effects of the fog. They jumped off the buildings and we loved them enough to catch them before they hit the ground. They felt and know what would have happened if we had not been there. They saw gravity. They felt gravity. Gravity almost destroyed them.

I never want to feel what they felt. I want to be able to trust my mind and senses. I don't ever want to be that out of control. I'm scared sh!tless of that feeling - the feeling of unprincipled recklessness and delusion. I'm satisfied with what I already know. I'll take Morrigan's word and the words of others like Sigma and cantsitstill. Its enough for me.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

cantmove said:


> Is it possible that someone still in the fog could read this thread and come out of it or at least begin to see things more clearly? My stbxwh is fence sitting, KNows he loves me and when with me wants to be there but hasn't given up AP and thinks that he loves her too. He doesn't want to deal with the reality of the situation. He acts like if just stays busy and doesn't deal with anything he can just go on like this forever without making a choice. He has agreed to go to the mc by himself this week. Not sure why ? I filed for divorce three weeks ago and ever since then he has been confused. Prior to my filing he was adamant that divorce was the answer and we should get lawyers. He is clearlly in the fog but if I thought it would help for him to read this thread I would get him to.What do you guys think?


cantmove,

Nobody can say what will be the origin of an epiphany. For Morrigan it was the heartbreak of seeing me and our son playing together while she was going out to meet her AP that cleared her mind enough to end it. For CSS it was after she was no longer in her home and with her family that started to open her eyes. For Daisy's husband it was when she told him she could no longer support him and spend time with him that finally woke him up. There is no telling what will work. Each case is different. What I can tell you is that I would try what has worked for others. You can try showing him this thread or others on TAM. You can try removing yourself from his life like Daisy did for her husband. He may not come around until after you've finally given up and moved on without him. It may not be just one thing that works. It may be that several things might combine to clear the fog. There just isn't any way to know. One thing I can tell you is that any addictive behavior does not improve until the addict is no longer being enabled and has hit rock bottom. Everyone's rock bottom is different. I wish you luck and I'm praying for you.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Beowulf said:


> Entropy, you sound just like Morrigan. Its strange to say this but after coming to TAM I have gained a new found appreciation for what she must have gone through in order to break it off. It must have taken some willpower. Of course when this was still raw I wouldn't have had any empathy for her nor should I have. But still its nice to appreciate how hard she fought for us.


It is hard to understand this without experiencing it.
It is very much a hole the WS dug for themselves. It is all on them. My wife actually had a better view of the dynamics than I did. It helped me a lot. But it is very much like dealing with a drug abuser. It requires tough love. Now some folks just plain have bad character. Sometimes you have to walk away.

The biggest thing I see on this forum is trouble with good boundaries. Good boundaries will help us think straight. Otherwise we are just going by how things feel. The brain chemicals feel great. So if we listen to them we have a good chance of making a poor choice. Yes character counts but we have imparied the brain function. Not good. We hurt people that we love when that happens.

I have a greater love and compassion for my wife today than ever. She demonstrated that she was all in for us. I have no doubt I took her to the breaking point. But we made it through. I am a much more savvy individual today. I learned my limitations. Humbling it is. By coming back from this we have a better mutual trust for one another than ever. She sees that I learned from this. She knows this was not in any way a problem with her. It was all on me.

A WS can literally be a different person than you have known them to be. They seem posessed because they are. 

A serendipity of this is that we can continue to fall in love with our partners throughout our marriage. We just need to do the things and bond with them that keep that Dopamine and Oxytocin for them. If people with poor boundaries and bad choices can "fall in love" with people who really do not meet many of their needs and who are not devoted to them, why can't we stay in love with the people that mean the world to us, meet our needs and are all in? I truly believe this is a choice we can make. Falling out of love with your partner does not mean the marriage is over. It means you lack the tools and desire to make it right. It takes two. I am also a firm believer now that it is essential that the spouses look out for each other. They can see things that we have a blindspot to.

Beowolf it sounds like you and Morrigan have it together. Having compassion is a strength. You have this. She is very lucky. But you can also know that she went through a time when she was in real trouble. A WS does not usually come back on their own without help from the BS. There is some synergy to this. I am guessing that she had enough invested in your love bank that allowed you to make the leap of faith to pull her back. Greatness.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Damn good post Entropy - spot on. I could never have pulled myself through the fog were it not for my wife. I have said it here repeatedly - I owe her a debt I will never be able to repay for the way she treated me after D Day.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Oh my same here Sigma..it was unbelieveable the way Calvin took care of me the day he brought me home...I wasnt eating, sleeping, he saw how horrible I looked and after I betrayed him he had the compassion to care...I know I didn't deserve it and we are both doing our best now to stay on track, but we have a ways to go. I've only been home a couple of months. At first we were happy, now we have ups and downs..I never know when it's gonna hit him hard out of the blue but I will never give up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

ok so D-day means discovery day..oops got it all mixed up sorry
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

My W confronted me on D day about my EA with my AP who was the OW. I never gave my LS the ILYBNILWY speech because I didn't want her to be my STBXW, but rather I very much wanted to R instead of D. 

Ya gotta keep the vernacular straight around here.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

I confessed it after him asking a couple times and me denying it saying no I'm not seeing anyone..I finally couldn't stand it so admitted it and ran out the door as fast as I can, took nothing with me..He told me to stop all contact with the OM and I totally refused, told him I'll do what I want and out the door I went. It was so hard when he was home when I came home to get saome of my things..bad bad memories
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DownUnder (Jul 30, 2011)

Question for Sigma & Beowulf....how does your BS helped you or pulled you out of the fog?

I dont know how i can help my H seeing that i have kicked him out of the house and right into the arms of the OW (he just moved in to her house a few days ago).

He seems content and i saw him for the first first time today after he moved out and he looks happy. I can barely look at him and i can't even stand being in the same room with him at the moment. 

Looks like maybe we are going towards a divorce regardless how much i hate that thought.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Helping to pull someone out of the fog is only possible if they want to come out.  In this sense it is exactly like helping someone beat a drug addiction - if they don't want to you can't help them - no matter how much you want them to. 

Your husband is more than in "the fog" he's still publicly in his affair. You've kicked him out, presumably telling him he can't have you and the OW and he's moved in with her. He picked, currently you have lost; but don't throw in the towel - the game is not necessarily lost. Enforce the consequences of his decision, run the 180, maybe the light will dawn on him of what he is about to cost himself and/or maybe the aura will dim on the OW as the reality of life with her begins to settle in. If either or both of these happen he will want to come back - then he is starting to come out of the fog and after he has convinced you of his remorse and genuine desire to come back you can help him. Currently anything you do to try to help him other than kick his ass for cheating on you will most likely only weaken your position and diminish you in his eyes.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

sigma1299 said:


> Helping to pull someone out of the fog is only possible if they want to come out. In this sense it is exactly like helping someone beat a drug addiction - if they don't want to you can't help them - no matter how much you want them to.
> 
> Your husband is more than in "the fog" he's still publicly in his affair. You've kicked him out, presumably telling him he can't have you and the OW and he's moved in with her. He picked, currently you have lost; but don't throw in the towel - the game is not necessarily lost. Enforce the consequences of his decision, run the 180, maybe the light will dawn on him of what he is about to cost himself and/or maybe the aura will dim on the OW as the reality of life with her begins to settle in. If either or both of these happen he will want to come back - then he is starting to come out of the fog and after he has convinced you of his remorse and genuine desire to come back you can help him. Currently anything you do to try to help him other than kick his ass for cheating on you will most likely only weaken your position and diminish you in his eyes.


Exactly, he won't hear you if he is still infatuated with the OW. The best thing you can do if to go as dark as you can and run the 180 in order to disconnect. Right now he isn't thinking about what he is losing he's thinking about what he's gaining. That will change after the Emperor is shown with no clothes. Once he sees that she isn't perfect like in his fantasy reality will begin to creep back in. If you decide to reconcile the 180 will help put you in the right frame of mind to deal with him from a position of strength. If you do end up divorcing the 180 will help you to disconnect from him. Either way until he clears his head you can't do much else.


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## DownUnder (Jul 30, 2011)

sigma1299 said:


> Helping to pull someone out of the fog is only possible if they want to come out. In this sense it is exactly like helping someone beat a drug addiction - if they don't want to you can't help them - no matter how much you want them to.
> 
> Your husband is more than in "the fog" he's still publicly in his affair. You've kicked him out, presumably telling him he can't have you and the OW and he's moved in with her. He picked, currently you have lost; but don't throw in the towel - the game is not necessarily lost. Enforce the consequences of his decision, run the 180, maybe the light will dawn on him of what he is about to cost himself and/or maybe the aura will dim on the OW as the reality of life with her begins to settle in. If either or both of these happen he will want to come back - then he is starting to come out of the fog and after he has convinced you of his remorse and genuine desire to come back you can help him. Currently anything you do to try to help him other than kick his ass for cheating on you will most likely only weaken your position and diminish you in his eyes.


Thank you Sigma & Beowulf.

I think i have done the right thing.

My last communication with him was pretty clear, im letting him go.

He asked to meet me for lunch to talk and my reply was:

_"No.

Im very hurt and broken right now, I trusted you with my heart and you crushed it yet again.

There is nothing left for us to talk about.
I need to start healing.

I hope you will find the happiness you are looking for with her.

I wish you the best.

Goodbye."_

Im currently doing the 180, as little contact as possible...this is for my benefit as i need to detach myself from him so any communication we have is only when it comes to the kids. 

Today is the first time i saw him since he left to move with the OW and to be honest i can't even look at him. I didn't even say hi when comes to pick up the kids....i dont want him in the house at all but i know that is not possible because he needs to see the kids.

I keep telling myself...one day at a time.
I will be okay.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Hey look - Happy 2000th post to me!! I need to get a life - or maybe join a support group for TAM addiction....


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

sigma1299 said:


> Hey look - Happy 2000th post to me!! I need to get a life - or maybe join a support group for TAM addiction....


lol


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## DownUnder (Jul 30, 2011)

sigma1299 said:


> Hey look - Happy 2000th post to me!! I need to get a life - or maybe join a support group for TAM addiction....


lol 

i was gonna say congrats, but im not sure if that's appropriate or not....lol as long as your relationship in real life is all good you dont need to join a support group yet 

I hope you dont ever stop coming here and giving advice to all of us....i for one really values your input


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

I agree,Sigma is pretty damn good with his advise. A huge help.Hang in there down,you'll make it somehow,we all do
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Aw shucks. Glad someone gets some benefit from my screw up. Thanks.


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## ilovechocolate (Jan 16, 2012)

So even if the "Fog " is addictive - at the end of the day WS should still be held accountable for their actions. We all have things we find addictive - ciggerettes, drink, chocolate etc but we learn how to control these habits, we learn how to avoid people or situations that would lead us into temptation . 
Why can t they control themselves in the same way?


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Beyond a shadow of a doubt they should be held accountable. Reaching the point of taking ownership and being willing to be held accountable is very key to coming out of the fog, it really can't be done without it.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Beowulf said:


> Funny you should mention that. There should be rehab for affair highs shouldn't there. Actually considering how prevelent affairs are these days wouldn't it make sense for someone to come up with an AA type program for BS and WS. For the WS we can call it IA (Infidelity Anonymous) and for the BS we can have In Anon instead of Al Anon.
> 
> I actually went through a slight case of withdrawal when I finally stopped the dilaudid. Had the shakes and really bad headaches. It sucked. I was going to suggest you have your doctor give you some to see what its like for yourself but then I thought about those withdrawals and said no way. You'll just have to take my word for it.


can you describe the 'symptoms' your wife had?


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

I can tell you some of the symptons my wife had,she was cold and distant,had a very short temper with me,she was very evasive and lied a lot,she could tell I was hurt but had no compassion for me.Every thing in our marriage according to her was 100% my fault.I pleaded with here to stop the EA,she refused said she was going to "date" him and do whatever the hell she wanted to,she yelled at me at times.One time she screamed at me how much better OM was than me.She had'nt seen this loser in 20 years,that didnt matter they were "soul mate force apart by the cruel hand of fate",not him doing prison time.It didnt matter how much counseling I went to or what I did I was the @sshole and the OM was prince Charming and he could do not wrong,It did'nt matter OM was a player,womanizer and a complete loser who did'nt own a vehicle or even a appartment. I was a useless,heartless dirt bag in my wifes eyes,she even tried to get me out of the house.
So if you are going through this with your WS,I feel for you,it wont be easy,expose the affair and get ready to go to hell and back and be treated like you are the one at fault for everybad thing that has happened in the marriage,you will be pushed to your limits and come close to having a FVcking breakdown.I'm so sorry you have to go through this,youre going to have to fight for your sanity.I wish you the best of luck
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

calvin said:


> I can tell you some of the symptons my wife had,she was cold and distant,had a very short temper with me,she was very evasive and lied a lot,she could tell I was hurt but had no compassion for me.Every thing in our marriage according to her was 100% my fault.I pleaded with here to stop the EA,she refused said she was going to "date" him and do whatever the hell she wanted to,she yelled at me at times.One time she screamed at me how much better OM was than me.She had'nt seen this loser in 20 years,that didnt matter they were "soul mate force apart by the cruel hand of fate",not him doing prison time.It didnt matter how much counseling I went to or what I did I was the @sshole and the OM was prince Charming and he could do not wrong,It did'nt matter OM was a player,womanizer and a complete loser who did'nt own a vehicle or even a appartment. I was a useless,heartless dirt bag in my wifes eyes,she even tried to get me out of the house.
> So if you are going through this with your WS,I feel for you,it wont be easy,expose the affair and get ready to go to hell and back and be treated like you are the one at fault for everybad thing that has happened in the marriage,you will be pushed to your limits and come close to having a FVcking breakdown.I'm so sorry you have to go through this,youre going to have to fight for your sanity.I wish you the best of luck
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh Ive already exposed the EA(works w/her still, so thats a b*tch). And no Im not seeing any of this now. But, when he was in the middle of the EA he was picking fights and comparing me to her. We had some pretty rough family times(sick child for example) while this was happening and he was giving his time/attention to her instead of his family. I think the fog is lifting, I am just being vigilant.Kind of hard to swallow. But, he has not blamed me AT ALL for his behavior. And im so sorry for you. I hope things have improved w/css.

p.s- my h's OW was married w/kids and abusing her position of authority. Yet in his mind im sure she was perfect too dispite the fact that she was whoring around on her husband.(since my H was doing it too he justified it I guess)


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Yes,they come up with many reasons to justify what they are doing and they take it out on you,its almost like youre already on the ground and they enjoy repeatedly kicking you in the head over and over and it hurts just as much.CSS and I are doing pretty good even though we have a way to go.
I hope things woek out for you.This is something that I refuse to ever go through again
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

calvin said:


> Yes,they come up with many reasons to justify what they are doing and they take it out on you,its almost like youre already on the ground and they enjoy repeatedly kicking you in the head over and over and it hurts just as much.CSS and I are doing pretty good even though we have a way to go.
> I hope things woek out for you.This is something that I refuse to ever go through again
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OH most definately me too. There will be NO repeat performances for CTU. This has to have a very sharp learning curve for him. It has been the most excrutiating experience of my life and once I put myself back together I wont endure this again.

its funny Bandit was talking about finding his smile again and I said mine was somewhere with my damned soul...explains it perfectly. I look at him and dont recognize him.


What do you see Chocolate?????


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

ilovechocolate said:


> Ok, so I understand that it s like a drug but what is? Is it the sex? Is it the danger and excitment? Is it the "newness" of the relationship? Is it being flattered by another person?


I think ego has alot to do with it for men. The need for admiration(youre so smart, you are so .....etc) At least I think this played a BIG role in my H's EA. She played on it like a fiddle. He sees it now.Hopefully that will help insulate him from her.


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## Ingalls (Mar 7, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> I think ego has alot to do with it for men. The need for admiration(youre so smart, you are so .....etc) At least I think this played a BIG role in my H's EA. She played on it like a fiddle. He sees it now.Hopefully that will help insulate him from her.


when I was told about my H kiss, I was crying and confused and he gave me that ILYBINILWY speach and then I became (what I thought) would hit him to the core saying she was only 21 and your 39 and his response was "it felt good she was attracted to me, have you seen her?"


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

canttrustu said:


> can you describe the 'symptoms' your wife had?


In Morrigan's case it was very subtle. She definitely became more distant to me a bit and she started spending more time away from home. She convinced me that it was work related and I wasn't cognizant enough to realize what was truly going on. She always dressed well so that didn't change. Our sex life did not drop off although she was less enthusiastic in bed. All these thing she told me were related to stress on the job and frankly it did seems to explain much. Back then there were no cell phones, no texting, no email or internet so the opportunities she had to communicate with her AP were limited anyway. When she told me it hit me right between the eyes. I never saw it coming and when I tell you I was in shock I really was. Most spouses seem to get an idea that something is not right. I had no such warning signs.

That said she really was in the fog after she stopped seeing him. It took her multiple times to break it off and she has told me that she was well and truly addicted to her affair. She did have all the classic feelings of being in la la land and that is what bothered her the most because she really is a very intelligent and stable person. I know this sounds like I'm putting her on a pedestal but in all honesty if it can happen to her it can really happen to anyone. She really has worked hard at establishing boundaries and we work daily to keep our marriage fresh and alive.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Beowulf said:


> In Morrigan's case it was very subtle. She definitely became more distant to me a bit and she started spending more time away from home. She convinced me that it was work related and I wasn't cognizant enough to realize what was truly going on. She always dressed well so that didn't change. Our sex life did not drop off although she was less enthusiastic in bed. All these thing she told me were related to stress on the job and frankly it did seems to explain much. Back then there were no cell phones, no texting, no email or internet so the opportunities she had to communicate with her AP were limited anyway. When she told me it hit me right between the eyes. I never saw it coming and when I tell you I was in shock I really was. Most spouses seem to get an idea that something is not right. I had no such warning signs.
> 
> That said she really was in the fog after she stopped seeing him. It took her multiple times to break it off and she has told me that she was well and truly addicted to her affair. She did have all the classic feelings of being in la la land and that is what bothered her the most because she really is a very intelligent and stable person. I know this sounds like I'm putting her on a pedestal but in all honesty if it can happen to her it can really happen to anyone. She really has worked hard at establishing boundaries and we work daily to keep our marriage fresh and alive.


this worries me b/c if it takes him several times I dont think I have that in Me to tolerate.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

calvin said:


> I can tell you some of the symptons my wife had,she was cold and distant,had a very short temper with me,she was very evasive and lied a lot,she could tell I was hurt but had no compassion for me.Every thing in our marriage according to her was 100% my fault.I pleaded with here to stop the EA,she refused said she was going to "date" him and do whatever the hell she wanted to,she yelled at me at times.One time she screamed at me how much better OM was than me.She had'nt seen this loser in 20 years,that didnt matter they were "soul mate force apart by the cruel hand of fate",not him doing prison time.It didnt matter how much counseling I went to or what I did I was the @sshole and the OM was prince Charming and he could do not wrong,It did'nt matter OM was a player,womanizer and a complete loser who did'nt own a vehicle or even a appartment. I was a useless,heartless dirt bag in my wifes eyes,she even tried to get me out of the house.
> So if you are going through this with your WS,I feel for you,it wont be easy,expose the affair and get ready to go to hell and back and be treated like you are the one at fault for everybad thing that has happened in the marriage,you will be pushed to your limits and come close to having a FVcking breakdown.I'm so sorry you have to go through this,youre going to have to fight for your sanity.I wish you the best of luck
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


See Calvin that's exactly the point. It didn't matter because she wasn't in her right mind. Look at the thread Was/Is the OM/OW better than you? In almost all cases the answer is no. Why would anyone choose to downgrade? Its because an affair is a fantasy not reality and the APs are, for lack of a better explanation, temporarily batsh!t crazy. They have to be held accountable for their actions of course but the fact is that if they come out of the fog and are truly remorseful then R can be successful with work and perseverance.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

canttrustu said:


> this worries me b/c if it takes him several times I dont think I have that in Me to tolerate.


I wasn't aware of the several times she tried to end it before she finally did and told me. In fact she said that's why she came clean that night. So she couldn't get pulled back in again. You know about your husband's affair and if he is demonstrating remorse in action he probably really does want to commit to you and stay away from her.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

ilovechocolate said:


> So even if the "Fog " is addictive - at the end of the day WS should still be held accountable for their actions. We all have things we find addictive - ciggerettes, drink, chocolate etc but we learn how to control these habits, we learn how to avoid people or situations that would lead us into temptation .
> Why can t they control themselves in the same way?


Once you're in the fog its difficult to see how to get out of it. Your mind justifies everything you do so well that you don't see the consequences. What the WS needs to be held accountable for is getting into that situation in the first place. There are other choices that could have been made all along the path. But the WS chose to go in a terribly damaging direction and once in its hard to turn back. That's why the WS has to be held accountable for everything in regards to the affair. Because their bad choices led them there and everything that followed is a consequence of those choices. Its why we say that both spouses are responsible for 50% of the marital problems before the affair but the WS is 100% responsible for the affair itself and the consequences resulting from it.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Beowulf said:


> I wasn't aware of the several times she tried to end it before she finally did and told me. In fact she said that's why she came clean that night. So she couldn't get pulled back in again. You know about your husband's affair and if he is demonstrating remorse in action he probably really does want to commit to you and stay away from her.


Good. I mean from this point forward there are no more chances. So I really hope so. I feel like if there is another time it will be a matter of survival for me and I will have no choice other than to D. Now that he is fully aware of what he has been doing and of the consequences for any future indescretion. As I see it perhaps he did what he did w/o considering the impact on our marriage. NOW, he knows. So, any further assault is intentional.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

canttrustu said:


> Good. I mean from this point forward there are no more chances. So I really hope so. I feel like if there is another time it will be a matter of survival for me and I will have no choice other than to D. Now that he is fully aware of what he has been doing and of the consequences for any future indescretion. As I see it perhaps he did what he did w/o considering the impact on our marriage. NOW, he knows. So, any further assault is intentional.


Absolutely, one chance, that's all. There is no excuse for a second time. He can research and read all about how he got himself into this mess. Plenty of books on affairs out there. He knows the damage and pain he caused. No excuse for him to even do it again. This is definitely a once and done situation.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Agreed,no way I could go through that nightmare again.....never
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

calvin said:


> Agreed,no way I could go through that nightmare again.....never
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yep. Fool me once.....


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Ingalls said:


> when I was told about my H kiss, I was crying and confused and he gave me that ILYBINILWY speach and then I became (what I thought) would hit him to the core saying she was only 21 and your 39 and his response was "it felt good she was attracted to me, have you seen her?"


oh NO!!!! they say the dumbest stuff. My H said I thought you'd be jealous of her b/c she is "young, thin and powerful". UMMMM, she is not much younger than me and i wear a size 3 now( a 6 when this all started) not exactly a cow and as far as power well, I have the power to end your life as you know it..... How stupid can they be?
I wanted to say she is also a lousy mother, and a wh*re of a wife, dont forget that...and she is playing you like a damned fiddle, fool.

He was definately on a powerful women kick. You know the ones that can end your career! and nearly did. THis has cost us about 5K dollars(no bonus, minimal raise) professionally he has paid a price at work too. Other people know about some of these issues. And then there is the personal price. It has nearly cost him his marriage, it has cause his children to lose respect for him and he has lost respect for himself. and this is only the tip of the iceberg. 

If only people considering an A would read these threads fIRST.


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## Ingalls (Mar 7, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> oh NO!!!! they say the dumbest stuff. My H said I thought you'd be jealous of her b/c she is "young, thin and powerful". UMMMM, she is not much younger than me and i wear a size 3 now( a 6 when this all started) not exactly a cow and as far as power well, I have the power to end your life as you know it..... How stupid can they be?
> I wanted to say she is also a lousy mother, and a wh*re of a wife, dont forget that...and she is playing you like a damned fiddle, fool.
> 
> He was definately on a powerful women kick. You know the ones that can end your career! and nearly did. THis has cost us about 5K dollars(no bonus, minimal raise) professionally he has paid a price at work too. Other people know about some of these issues. And then there is the personal price. It has nearly cost him his marriage, it has cause his children to lose respect for him and he has lost respect for himself. and this is only the tip of the iceberg.
> ...


No doubt if they only KNEW?? Bummer is those words echo constantly in my head. I know kissing a man would hurt my H to the core...so I asked him last night what happens when I actually go through "my" MLC or worse what if these past two years it's wasn't his actual MLC and I can't do this again. I won't do this again!!!


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## ilovechocolate (Jan 16, 2012)

This "fog" is still a mystery to me - whilst the A was going on our marriage went from strength to strengh . No more taking each other for granted, good sex etc . I later told my H I thought it was guilt but he said it was because he knew he could lose everything and it made him appreciate what he had? So even though he was in the fog he was trying to make marriage good???


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

I didn't know I was in the fog when I first came back home..All I knew was that my husband loved me enough to take me back and that was worth working at making it better..now that the fog is clearing I realise so many things I need to work on..so many faults. I blamed everything on him at first and honestly believed that he pushed me away.. so not true
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

When in the fog you don't even know it..you think you know everything it's not till you get out of the fog that you really see the harm u caused.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

ilovechocolate said:


> This "fog" is still a mystery to me - whilst the A was going on our marriage went from strength to strengh . No more taking each other for granted, good sex etc . I later told my H I thought it was guilt but he said it was because he knew he could lose everything and it made him appreciate what he had? So even though he was in the fog he was trying to make marriage good???


Something very similar happened to me. While my affair was going on I amped up affection toward my wife. The weird part is it was genuine. The feelings my affair woke up in me just naturally turned toward my wife as well. Like you, she thought it was guilt or over compensation to, but it wasn't. It was really nothing more than I remembered what it felt like to be in love and once I remembered those feeling just naturally flowed toward my wife. Have I mentioned how screwed up inside the head of someone in an affair is?? So very very messed up.


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## DownUnder (Jul 30, 2011)

CantSitStill said:


> When in the fog you don't even know it..you think you know everything it's not till you get out of the fog that you really see the harm u caused.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


UGH, i dont think im even gonna try to understand whats going on in my H's foggy mind right now....the way he thinks and his actions right now is so completely screwed up! He claimed that he loves our children but everything he does with the OW tells me otherwise....its very confusing.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Yep love my kids, never stopped but during that time I had no clue that what I was doing affected anyone..I know DUHH!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ingalls (Mar 7, 2012)

So does a BS who wants recovery just sit around and wait on this fog to end? Again I want recovery and he say's he does too but...


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

CantSitStill said:


> Yep love my kids, never stopped but during that time I had no clue that what I was doing affected anyone..I know DUHH!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Can't,

Like I've said before. Morrigan was leaving to go to see her AP. My son and I were playing and laughing and having a great time. If she weren't in an affair she would have been playing with us. We would have been smiling and laughing together like a loving family. Instead she was once again putting on her coat so that she could be with her lover. Unbeknownst to me she had done that so many times before. I know she did love our son but I also know what she did affected him greatly. She was costing our son and herself special times, special memories and love. The hardest part was thinking of these things. How could she do this to me? How could she do this to our son? I didn't know then what I know now. And I thank God every day that she found the strength to make a good choice after making so many bad ones.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Ingalls said:


> So does a BS who wants recovery just sit around and wait on this fog to end? Again I want recovery and he say's he does too but...


No, you need to tell him what you need from him. You need to direct him. He is going to be confused. As much as it hurts for you right now you need to take charge. As his head clears he will realize the terrible things he's done and will begin to make better choices. He will start to find ways to try to show remorse.

That is why we have the newbie thread. Because it gives concrete guidelines as to what the WS needs to do and what the BS should expect. Both parties are confused and hurt. Both parties need guidance and direction.


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## Lone Star (Feb 2, 2012)

MY H is deep in the fog, all the things described in this thread are him. For the BS it is extremely difficult to have to watch all this happen while at the same time not able to do anything about it. Watch my life and my sons being destroyed. I received a bunch of letters (unsigned) from the person I believe to be the other woman. Only a woman he is sexually involved with would know certain things contained in the letters. I told him about the letters, he claims she didn't do because she said she didn't do it. The letters contained some predictions of what she hoped would happen to my family. Those things are happening and yet he stills swears that she didn't write the letters. I'm beginning to think he is a complete idiot or maybe he and his GF wrote the letters together. Either way, the information in the letters was cruel and heartless. I wish them both well as they rot in hell.


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## ilovechocolate (Jan 16, 2012)

CantSitStill said:


> When in the fog you don't even know it..you think you know everything it's not till you get out of the fog that you really see the harm u caused.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



My H is not even aware of the "fog" - he s done lots of research about A 's and why people have them . He doen t know about this site and I ve not told him. We were talking a couple of weeks ago and I asked him if it had been worth it to which he replied NO! then I asked him if he knew of someone who was on the verge of having an A would he try to stop them . He replied yes but that he would bet a years wages that they would nt take any notice because if they were that close to having an A they were already "hooked" .


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## AlterEgoist (Mar 6, 2012)

My wife is not aware of the fog either in her EA. She's in complete denial, she shows little remorse, says one thing and does another, and is completely evasive. It's hard to not do anything about it as I'm trying to adopt the 180.


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## ilovechocolate (Jan 16, 2012)

The other thing that is a worry about the "fog" is if it s so addictive , can the WS be pulled back in? Can they see the fog after they ve been discovered ? I just worry that something so addictive that s affected my H and marriage once can claim them again?


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

yes they can but it takes steps..scare the heck out of them so that reality hits..doesn't always work but it can
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LeslieH (Apr 3, 2012)

I was wondering if I'm still in the fog...My A was really short. I really have no desire to contact the person again, will luckily never run into him again, and after seeing my husband for the first time since D-Day, I'm painfully aware of how much I can hurt someone. 

It's hard for me to face. But...I still don't hate my AP. I actually really hope that he gets his act together. Is that bad? Should I be wishing him ill will?


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

ilovechocolate said:


> The other thing that is a worry about the "fog" is if it s so addictive , can the WS be pulled back in? Can they see the fog after they ve been discovered ? I just worry that something so addictive that s affected my H and marriage once can claim them again?


Absolutely!!! This is one of the reasons that transparency and checking up on your wayward spouse are so important. And CSS is right - it does happen in steps. As the loyal spouse if you can see that first step or two you can look at your WS and go "WTF you dumbass - we said NO CONTACT!!" and knock some sense into them before it gets anywhere close to going over the edge. 

Footnote - it takes about 1/100th the number of steps to fall back into an affair with someone you've had one with as it does to fall the first time. If the first time was fast, if there's a second time it will be like lightning.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

LeslieH said:


> I was wondering if I'm still in the fog...My A was really short. I really have no desire to contact the person again, will luckily never run into him again, and after seeing my husband for the first time since D-Day, I'm painfully aware of how much I can hurt someone.
> 
> It's hard for me to face. But...I still don't hate my AP. I actually really hope that he gets his act together. Is that bad? Should I be wishing him ill will?


In reality the best thing you can feel is nothing more than you feel for a stranger you pass on the street. Hate and wishing him ill will are still emotions, if you feel them for him he is still occupying a part of your heart - even if that part manifest as hate. Nothing says F you like indifference.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

ilovechocolate said:


> The other thing that is a worry about the "fog" is if it s so addictive , can the WS be pulled back in? Can they see the fog after they ve been discovered ? I just worry that something so addictive that s affected my H and marriage once can claim them again?


My H saw it once he was away from her for a few days and did some reading. Have your h read 'the fog'. Its on TAM I think it under Almost Recovered Page or maybe Pit of My Stomach...


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Its not easy pulling them out of it,in fact its damn hard,once my WW was back home it took another six weeks to get her almost all the way out..never again
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

sigma1299 said:


> Absolutely!!! This is one of the reasons that transparency and checking up on your wayward spouse are so important. And CSS is right - it does happen in steps. As the loyal spouse if you can see that first step or two you can look at your WS and go "WTF you dumbass - we said NO CONTACT!!" and knock some sense into them before it gets anywhere close to going over the edge.
> 
> Footnote - it takes about 1/100th the number of steps to fall back into an affair with someone you've had one with as it does to fall the first time. If the first time was fast, if there's a second time it will be like lightning.


....And there went my lunch.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

canttrustu said:


> ....And there went my lunch.


Don't stress too much. It is the reason that no contact is so important. You can't go back and rebuild boundaries with someone you cheated with - it just doesn't work. Any contact is dangerous since if they are in contact you never know when that first step could happen. It's ultimately about boundaries, desire and self control. If he wants to cheat he will. If he wants to be faithful and reconcile he'll put the boundaries in place to make sure that the first step never happens.

As an aside though - here's a perfect example of how quick it can flare back up. 8 months after my D day I received a friend request from a name I didn't recognize. Just a little bit of examination and I knew it was my AP under a made up facebook account. I figured, well I don't mind if she just keeps up with how I'm doing by watching my facebook page and we're not communicating so I accepted - STEP 1. That turned into post by each of us that to anyone other than the two of us were totally innocuous but were really messages between us of what we were up to - STEP 2. Then one day she opened a chat window between us and I chatted back - it was all platonic but it was damn sure contact at that point - STEP 3. Ironically out of the blue my wife asked me that night if I had received anything from my AP lately - I was so shocked and taken off guard I spit out "no" before I could help myself. So here's where I get to how many steps it takes. We went to bed that night and I knew that if I woke up the next morning with this secret and lie still in place that I was back in the affair - no doubt. So that's three steps into reconnecting and one more and I was back in - see what I mean? Fortunately like I said above it's really about what he wants. I didn't want back in - I wanted to be faithful and reconcile so I woke my wife up at 2:00am and told her about the friend request, the chat and the lie; and took the ass kicking she gave and I deserved.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

sigma1299 said:


> Don't stress too much. It is the reason that no contact is so important. You can't go back and rebuild boundaries with someone you cheated with - it just doesn't work. Any contact is dangerous since if they are in contact you never know when that first step could happen. It's ultimately about boundaries, desire and self control. If he wants to cheat he will. If he wants to be faithful and reconcile he'll put the boundaries in place to make sure that the first step never happens.
> 
> As an aside though - here's a perfect example of how quick it can flare back up. 8 months after my D day I received a friend request from a name I didn't recognize. Just a little bit of examination and I knew it was my AP under a made up facebook account. I figured, well I don't mind if she just keeps up with how I'm doing by watching my facebook page and we're not communicating so I accepted - STEP 1. That turned into post by each of us that to anyone other than the two of us were totally innocuous but were really messages between us of what we were up to - STEP 2. Then one day she opened a chat window between us and I chatted back - it was all platonic but it was damn sure contact at that point - STEP 3. Ironically out of the blue my wife asked me that night if I had received anything from my AP lately - I was so shocked and taken off guard I spit out "no" before I could help myself. So here's where I get to how many steps it takes. We went to bed that night and I knew that if I woke up the next morning with this secret and lie still in place that I was back in the affair - no doubt. So that's three steps into reconnecting and one more and I was back in - see what I mean? Fortunately like I said above it's really about what he wants. I didn't want back in - I wanted to be faithful and reconcile so I woke my wife up at 2:00am and told her about the friend request, the chat and the lie; and took the ass kicking she gave and I deserved.


Yes, but as you well know 'no contact' is impossible. I want to believe/trust him. I see him working hard but right now he is away from her per se. She is sending a few fishers already. He told me both times. I just have NO comfort level w/him required to communicate w/them. I think he wants to be faithful. Its just that I dont know how much strength he has to push through it on a daily basis with her in his face. I worry I may have to make him quit if he doesnt get this new job. I really hope it doesnt come to that.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

I know - hopefully it will pan out later this month and you can both close that door. As long as he's telling you about all of them it's good, but better to be done with the OW all together.


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## Ingalls (Mar 7, 2012)

sigma1299 said:


> I didn't want back in - I wanted to be faithful and reconcile so I woke my wife up at 2:00am and told her about the friend request, the chat and the lie; and took the ass kicking she gave and I deserved.


Can you talk to my H please? I said last night if he would have told me the truth vs lying I would maybe still be upset but not now considering splitting....Good for you for realizing what you wanted and facing your wife head on.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

I never ever want to run into or have any communication with the OM negative or not..would rather not know what he is up to. He is dead to me. If ever I run into him I will run the other way.. I have nothing to say to him. I'll let Calvin deal with him..out of my life means out of my life..if he tried to talk to me I may want to say someting negative but then that just feeds him and opens things up to a conversation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

actually the OM tried calling on valentines day..i did not pick up..called Calvin instantly, gave him his number and let him deal with him..which btw turned very ugly
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

The idiot kept on childishly saying all kinds of crap like.."I'm at your house right now"..bunch of crap to get Calvin worked up..he totally ruined our valentines day, grrr it's prolly what he wanted to do..anyway he is blocked from our phones now..shaking as I type this, bad bad memory
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LeslieH (Apr 3, 2012)

yikes!


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Ingalls said:


> Can you talk to my H please? I said last night if he would have told me the truth vs lying I would maybe still be upset but not now considering splitting....Good for you for realizing what you wanted and facing your wife head on.


If you think there's anything I can do to help I'll be glad to. Please don't hesitate to send me a PM if you'd rather.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

sigma1299 said:


> If you think there's anything I can do to help I'll be glad to. Please don't hesitate to send me a PM if you'd rather.


hes worth his weight in gold, Ingalls. ;-)


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## DownUnder (Jul 30, 2011)

canttrustu said:


> Yes, but as you well know 'no contact' is impossible. I want to believe/trust him. I see him working hard but right now he is away from her per se. She is sending a few fishers already. He told me both times. I just have NO comfort level w/him required to communicate w/them. I think he wants to be faithful. Its just that I dont know how much strength he has to push through it on a daily basis with her in his face. I worry I may have to make him quit if he doesnt get this new job. I really hope it doesnt come to that.


this scared the crap out of me....i know that if my H ever comes out of his fog, the NC will probably be quite impossible too (quitting his job is not possible and looking for another job will take a while in this current job market where we are) and this is why im not sure if anything can be done. 

Its cary and make me feel hopeless too. But then again seeing how much he is still deep inside the fog right now that is a BIG HUGE "IF" *sigh*


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

DownUnder said:


> this scared the crap out of me....i know that if my H ever comes out of his fog, the NC will probably be quite impossible too (quitting his job is not possible and looking for another job will take a while in this current job market where we are) and this is why im not sure if anything can be done.
> 
> Its cary and make me feel hopeless too. But then again seeing how much he is still deep inside the fog right now that is a BIG HUGE "IF" *sigh*


He is doing quite well(the fog has lifted) Thank God! But he still works with her and thats no fun AT ALL.


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## DownUnder (Jul 30, 2011)

canttrustu said:


> He is doing quite well(the fog has lifted) Thank God! But he still works with her and thats no fun AT ALL.


That's what im afraid of CTU, and i will be in your exact position 'IF' my H ever get out of his fog....i can't imagine its easy for you, its will be MUCH harder to rebuilt trust in this case.

Im gonna be following your journey closely so that i can learn from you, what needs to be done to make it work and if its possible to have a sucessful R if the WS still see the AP at work.

Im rooting for you and your H tho.....keep going and i will be praying for you.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

canttrustu said:


> hes worth his weight in gold, Ingalls. ;-)


Hey now - what if I'm a pygmy?? That's not much weight to be worth now is it??


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

LeslieH said:


> I was wondering if I'm still in the fog...My A was really short. I really have no desire to contact the person again, will luckily never run into him again, and after seeing my husband for the first time since D-Day, I'm painfully aware of how much I can hurt someone.
> 
> It's hard for me to face. But...I still don't hate my AP. I actually really hope that he gets his act together. Is that bad? Should I be wishing him ill will?


I don't think you are in the fog now. You weren't with the OM long enough to bond. But if you look at your first post you were still in the fog at that time. But you have perspective now. In many ways you are fortunate. Your head is clear enough that you can start rebuilding and working on your marriage right away.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

CantSitStill said:


> actually the OM tried calling on valentines day..i did not pick up..called Calvin instantly, gave him his number and let him deal with him..which btw turned very ugly
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Its funny. In chatting with calvin on here I can tell he is very loving toward you. Not weak but like he'd blow on lava to cool it just so you could walk up the volcano. But he also strikes me as someone who would fiercely defend himself and his family against all obstacles and all odds. CSS I hope you realize what a truly rare husband you have there.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

DownUnder said:


> That's what im afraid of CTU, and i will be in your exact position 'IF' my H ever get out of his fog....i can't imagine its easy for you, its will be MUCH harder to rebuilt trust in this case.
> 
> Im gonna be following your journey closely so that i can learn from you, what needs to be done to make it work and if its possible to have a sucessful R if the WS still see the AP at work.
> 
> Im rooting for you and your H tho.....keep going and i will be praying for you.


This is why we are all here. To learn from and support each other. I'm still learning and hopefully will never stop.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

DownUnder said:


> That's what im afraid of CTU, and i will be in your exact position 'IF' my H ever get out of his fog....i can't imagine its easy for you, its will be MUCH harder to rebuilt trust in this case.
> 
> Im gonna be following your journey closely so that i can learn from you, what needs to be done to make it work and if its possible to have a sucessful R if the WS still see the AP at work.
> 
> Im rooting for you and your H tho.....keep going and i will be praying for you.


DU,

PM if you want and tell me your story. I will help If I can. Im not that far along but Ive already learned ALOT.

CTU


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Beowulf said:


> Its funny. In chatting with calvin on here I can tell he is very loving toward you. Not weak but like he'd blow on lava to cool it just so you could walk up the volcano. But he also strikes me as someone who would fiercely defend himself and his family against all obstacles and all odds. CSS I hope you realize what a truly rare husband you have there.


When it comes to family Calvin is very very protective..boy could I tell you some stories about his sister a-hole ex boyfriends. He don't take any crap.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Just Tired Of It All (Oct 22, 2011)

So today was the very first day that I have been able to talk freely to my WS about the A. without him being angry or deffensive or yelling.

I only said a few things about it, I still have along way to go before I get the whole truth, if thats even possible...

One question, what are the steps when coming out of the fog? Like is it a slow thing, or is it just boom thru back into reality.. You see, if there were steps into the A.. as been said, that its not like boom the affair starts, it is more like a process, and there are signs the BS should has seen, then is there signs or steps that the BS should see as the WS comes out of the fog?

I cant tell you this, I approached it very slowly today, did not get angry, I simply said, there is somthing I want to ask you but I dont want you to become angry I dont want to argue, I just feel that life is to short, and I want to be able to Freely decided what I want in my life based on the truth, I dont want to be lied to and be forced to live a life that I have been deceived into living, that isnt fair to me. I want to. I have the right to choose what path my life takes and I want it to be based on the truth..

I asked him just one question, just one.. I asked if there had been any contact with the Ap.. and was I shocked with his reaction to it, I have been so used to the angier, the yelling, the denying the arguments..but not this time. his response was:

No I have not, I dont want to, I love you, you are the one I want to be with.. I have been with you the whole time, I am only alone when I work, but I am working I can't do anything at work, I dont want to even if I could. I want her to be as far out of my life as I can get her. I told you I would tell you, I promise I will. He said, you can look thru my phone, then he said I know you Know I can delete stuff, but the records cant be deleted, so look up the phone records. Then he said, I will change phone numbers, if that will help you to feel better, I will do anything you want me to, I want to make this as easy on you as I can, just tell me what it is that will make you feel better. 

I told him, I am not stupid you can have another phone, he said I promise I dont, tell me how to prove it to you? I am in love with you, I only want you with me, only you around me, only you in my life. I am not in love nor do I care about her, I never did....... he really let out more now than I have ever heard from him.. And I had just asked that one question.. 

But you Know what was weird, he doesnt know I come here no one does, but he was talking just really leting stuff out, the things I thout I would never hear from him,, and at one point in time he just said.. I dont know what was wrong with me, it was stupid.. Its like my brain had a thick fog around it... I cant explain it, but thats what it seemed like.. He looked at me and said, jesus reached for me and pulled me out of it...I was lost, I lost my way, I was going thru my life and my mind was ingulfed in a thick fog, jesus pulled me out. 

I saw tears, I know he was being real at that moment I could just feel it... It was a very calm talk.. well he talked and I listened..

So, I hope this breakthru continues.. And I want to ask more questions and have honest answers.. thats why I am asking about the coming out of the fog..

He used to be very strong beleiver in Jesus, and he had lost that during the A.. And I was struggling with how he could, but I see it coming back to him stronger than it ever was.. I see his Faith becoming a strong guide in his life again.. I am so happy for that.

Now, I have to find away for me to get all this A behind us.. and me. 

He talked awhile about it, not everything not some stuff that I have a deep need to know, I guess I will work on that.. But to have him to really Talk, and tell me some of the things I have so depretaly wantd to hear, and not just hear thru angier, but to hear it with sinsarity and love... 

What do you all think?


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Just Tired Of It All said:


> So today was the very first day that I have been able to talk freely to my WS about the A. without him being angry or deffensive or yelling.
> 
> I only said a few things about it, I still have along way to go before I get the whole truth, if thats even possible...
> 
> ...


It certainly sounds like he is coming out of it. It does sometimes take weeks to clear your head from the affair so he may not be totally "back" yet. Many times it takes an epiphany to break free. For my wife it was seeing me playing with our son. But even then her feelings were compromised for a while yet. It sounds like your husband had a religious epiphany. Those work well too. It may be that he felt weak and powerless against the effects of the fog and decided to send it to God as they say. The only advice I can offer is to watch his actions more than his words and keep working to rebuild a connection. I would be encouraged if I were you.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Sounds like he is getting there and he is seeing things more clearly..in time he should probably be telling you more and more, it is a process, doesn't happen all at once but he's getting there..Hey be proud of yourself for asking him nice and calm. Your demeanor helps him feel more comfortable to discuss it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Just Tired Of It All (Oct 22, 2011)

Thanks for your help..

I want to be incouraged, I heard his words, seen his reactions, and felt that it was finally a ounce of truth coming from him...but I have been lied, and munipliated so much... well I even second guess what I felt in my heart.. If that makes any sense?

The thing is.. I MEANT what I said to him.. I have the right to choose for myself rather to continue with the marriage or not based of the truth. Not based of lies just so I am munipliated into staying in a the marriage out of his fear of loosing me.. I have the right to choose to continue or walk away. I didnt say I do to him based of mutiplations and lies. I freely chose to say I do to him out of love. I want our marriage to continue with me freely choosing to stay and that can only happen if I am told the truth and I choose to stay out of love. If he lies, then he isnt giving me the chance to freely love him and honestly move forward with our life.. I asked him if that is really how he wants our marriage to continue, him knowing that he muniplitaed me into staying and then how would he ever really know if I stayed out of love or was it because he lied so much and made me stay in a marriage that wasnt real anymore but he made it real by lies..would he honestly feel wonderful about our marriage years from now, would he never question that? I simply said, I have the right to choose to stay for love based of truth or stay because I was made to beleive lies where truth!!!

So you say watch his actions, as in what?
But, I have so many questions still, but how to proceed, do I space them out, ask all at once or just give some more time... But the I could tell that today was the fist honest answers I had gotten from him.... And I do feel that as he said, he had a deep fog. The thing is, he had no idea that there really is such thing as the Affair fog, he was trying to explain to me how he felt at the time, and he happened to explain it to me as if he had a thick fog, but jesus pulled him out.


I guess I should just breath a slight bit only a very tiny bit easier now that I have seen the tip of the iceburge??? But then again, I dont know, its been along painfull time in my life, so I question everything...


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

I wish I could put into words how much CSS means to me but I dont think there is anything proper in the English language to decribe how much I care for her.I'd do a cannonball into that lava with a smile on my face if it would keep her from any harm.
When I think about it,that would probably be easier than going through all this crap but I know it will never happen again and she is doing a fantastic job with both of us right now,she cares deeply.She's a good girl.
I've never had an adversary like the "fog" its one tough bastard.You cant hit it,beat it,shoot it or make it bleed.You have to outwit it and that is the bigest challenge I've ever had to face in my life.Thank God for this site and the people on it


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Just Tired Of It All said:


> Thanks for your help..
> 
> I want to be incouraged, I heard his words, seen his reactions, and felt that it was finally a ounce of truth coming from him...but I have been lied, and munipliated so much... well I even second guess what I felt in my heart.. If that makes any sense?
> 
> ...


As for the questions, ask them as often as you need to. Just do so calmly. If you feel you are getting obsessive over questioning (it can happen very easily) set aside time each week to ask questions. Something like every Thursday at 8pm for one hour I will ask questions. When I say watch him just observe. If he starts sneaking around be aware of it. He has offered you access to his phone. Check it if you want. You are right that if he wanted to continue an affair he could. He could no doubt cover his tracks very well. But eventually he would slip up. A guilty look, a hesitation, whatever. You'll know if you are watching. But I would be cautiously optimistic. If you feel you don;t have the truth you could always ask him to take a polygraph test to verify what he's told you. You need to do what makes you comfortable in the relationship. And you are correct. There is no statute of limitations on infidelity. You can choose to end the marriage any time you want. You are stronger than you give yourself credit for. You will be ok no matter what happens.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

calvin said:


> I wish I could put into words how much CSS means to me but I dont think there is anything proper in the English language to decribe how much I care for her.I'd do a cannonball into that lava with a smile on my face if it would keep her from any harm.
> When I think about it,that would probably be easier than going through all this crap but I know it will never happen again and she is doing a fantastic job with both of us right now,she cares deeply.She's a good girl.
> I've never had an adversary like the "fog" its one tough bastard.You cant hit it,beat it,shoot it or make it bleed.You have to outwit it and that is the bigest challenge I've ever had to face in my life.Thank God for this site and the people on it


You already whipped its a$$ calvin. CSS is standing side by side with you again. She is going to be stronger than ever. You are going to be stronger than ever. And most important your marriage is going to be stronger than ever. You guys are amazing. :smthumbup:


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

I agree with Beowulf 1000%

Coming out from under the fog is a process but there seems to be a period where a lot of progress is made in a very short time. Sounds like that's where he is. He's not done but the worst may be behind him.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

sigma1299 said:


> I agree with Beowulf 1000%
> 
> Coming out from under the fog is a process but there seems to be a period where a lot of progress is made in a very short time. Sounds like that's where he is. He's not done but the worst may be behind him.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Yes a way to go,I feel its moving along a little quicker because all the help we have recieved,still a lot of work ahead but seems the foudation is firmly in place
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Just Tired Of It All (Oct 22, 2011)

sigma1299 said:


> I agree with Beowulf 1000%
> 
> Coming out from under the fog is a process but there seems to be a period where a lot of progress is made in a very short time. Sounds like that's where he is. He's not done but the worst may be behind him.


I guess if there is a period were alot of progress is made in a very short amount of time like you say... well maybe I should prepare myself... this is the very first glimmer of hope I have had, and it was just a small step.. but a step none the less..of true honesty from him....but in order for true R, all of you have helped to understand the diffrence between true R and the false.. And at first yep it was a false.... and I didnt give-up, I ran that ugly A Marthon and I will not give-up until the finish line... Do I yet Know the outcome of the race? No, not yet! But who does until you cross the finish line!!!But at least I now KNow the diffrence between a false start and a real thing.. Thank you all!!!!!! you all have been a real blessing.. And I will still post, still going to need that advice BIG TIME!!!


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## Just Tired Of It All (Oct 22, 2011)

Beowulf said:


> As for the questions, ask them as often as you need to. Just do so calmly. If you feel you are getting obsessive over questioning (it can happen very easily) set aside time each week to ask questions. Something like every Thursday at 8pm for one hour I will ask questions. When I say watch him just observe. If he starts sneaking around be aware of it. He has offered you access to his phone. Check it if you want. You are right that if he wanted to continue an affair he could. He could no doubt cover his tracks very well. But eventually he would slip up. A guilty look, a hesitation, whatever. You'll know if you are watching. But I would be cautiously optimistic. If you feel you don;t have the truth you could always ask him to take a polygraph test to verify what he's told you. You need to do what makes you comfortable in the relationship. And you are correct. There is no statute of limitations on infidelity. You can choose to end the marriage any time you want. You are stronger than you give yourself credit for. You will be ok no matter what happens.


Thanks, Beowulf...I needed some ways of handling it, I guess set some boundries for myself... You Know I wanted to rush into it and get all the truth at once.. but learnt here thats not a reality, or honestly possible... And the tips you give are great.... I am just starting the True R.. and I dont wanna spook him, and if I go at him full blast, no doubt it will... But I am so releived that maybe the True R has begun... keep your advice coming.. it is more than welcomed :smthumbup:


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## jobill4444 (Apr 10, 2012)

Beowulf said:


> My wife has told me that she literally felt like a drug addict when she was in her affair. The brain chemical released is dopamine. Its the same chemical released when you do cocaine. That's why just like drug addicts people in affairs will do anything to feed their addiction. Although I've never experienced it myself I saw Morrigan going through the withdrawal symptoms. Its damned real.


Beowulf...
Damn I am glad I red these posts. Its the first glimmer of hope that I have had since I found out about my wifes affair with her boss. I will bother you with my story, please bear with me...
I discivered it 3 months ago, confronted with no real proof, went undeground, found another mailbox, confronted again with no real proof and she is in complete denial. All you say about fog is totally related to my situation I just dont know how to behave with her. Sometime I try, just try, the 180, then I just melt like a sorry a**h**. I try to take good care of our daughter (8yo) but she sees im behaving strange... My wife is going on a BT with her EA partner in a couple of weeks and I dont know what to do... I would really appreciate your input.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

The very first thing that cannot happen is that business trip, even if it cost her her job. If she leaves with the man she's having an EA with she'll return with the man she's having a PA with. Guaranteed. If the EA progresses to a PA your problems get a million times worse. 

Tell her what you will and won't accept, what the consequences are then stick to it. As you've read in this thread, treat her just like a drug addict you are trying to get clean. 

Regardless she cannot go on that trip. If she goes believing she can come back and still be married you might as well start setting the OM a plate at your table because he'll be a full on member of your marriage.


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## jobill4444 (Apr 10, 2012)

sigma1299 said:


> The very first thing that cannot happen is that business trip, even if it cost her her job. If she leaves with the man she's having an EA with she'll return with the man she's having a PA with. Guaranteed. If the EA progresses to a PA your problems get a million times worse.
> 
> Tell her what you will and won't accept, what the consequences are then stick to it. As you've read in this thread, treat her just like a drug addict you are trying to get clean.
> 
> Regardless she cannot go on that trip. If she goes believing she can come back and still be married you might as well start setting the OM a plate at your table because he'll be a full on member of your marriage.


I have no way to stop it... She is in totl denial and my bringing the subject up just seems to make things worst. Plus they already were on BT together not long ago so it might already be a PA... Dont know what to do really... 180 is a solution but then we have the holidays with the kid planned etc... it just all so f*** up...


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

If you have holidays planned, cancel them. Take your kids to a trip alone.

Tell her that this BT is unacceptable, and it's either you or him. (Yes I know you wouldn't).

Really, you are now like a shell-shocked soldier wandering on a minefield in front of all us here. We all know what you have to stop it, but you can't hear us.

Could you do me a favor? Go to the bathroom, stand in front of the mirror, and slap your face hard. Cause I can't do it for you from here. Come to your senses!


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

snap said:


> If you have holidays planned, cancel them. Take your kids to a trip alone.
> 
> Tell her that this BT is unacceptable, and it's either you or him. (Yes I know you wouldn't).
> 
> ...


You are completely right - you have no way to stop it. 

However.

You do have the ability to lay down and enforce consequences if she chooses to go. The question is what are those consequences that you are REALLY prepared to enforce? This is not a game of chicken. Only draw those lines in the sand that you intend to stand on. If you say something is going to happen and it doesn't she'll believe everything you say is empty. 

Ultimately you can only control what you do and react to what she does. The sooner and more clearly you delineate to her what the relationship between her actions and yours will be the better chance you have of saving it - if that's what you really want when all the fit finally hits the shan.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

sigma1299 said:


> As an aside though - here's a perfect example of how quick it can flare back up. 8 months after my D day I received a friend request from a name I didn't recognize. Just a little bit of examination and I knew it was my AP under a made up facebook account. *I figured, well I don't mind if she just keeps up with how I'm doing by watching my facebook page and we're not communicating so I accepted - STEP 1. That turned into post by each of us that to anyone other than the two of us were totally innocuous but were really messages between us of what we were up to - *STEP 2. Then one day she opened a chat window between us and I chatted back - it was all platonic but it was damn sure contact at that point - STEP 3. Ironically out of the blue my wife asked me that night if I had received anything from my AP lately - I was so shocked and taken off guard I spit out "no" before I could help myself. So here's where I get to how many steps it takes. We went to bed that night and I knew that if I woke up the next morning with this secret and lie still in place that I was back in the affair - no doubt. So that's three steps into reconnecting and one more and I was back in - see what I mean? Fortunately like I said above it's really about what he wants. I didn't want back in - I wanted to be faithful and reconcile so I woke my wife up at 2:00am and told her about the friend request, the chat and the lie; and took the ass kicking she gave and I deserved.


I'm glad you mentioned this as I noticed interesting things on my bf's wall with his EA.

They both liked going to see indie bands. I noticed that she sometimes "liked" the bands that he mentioned on his wall. Then I noticed that she only liked the bands that he went to without me. Then I noticed that he mentioned 3 bands in one entry on his wall, one of which that I went with him. She liked it again.

The next month, my bf and I went to a concert which he didn't mention on his wall. I now know that within that week he went to a concert with his EA and he also didn't mention on his wall. 3 months later, he mentioned 2 concerts on his wall that he went to without me. No likes from her there. But when I read the e-mails between them, she did mention things like haven't heard or seen from you since.....so apparently she didn't go or maybe she just didn't like those bands.

Facebook behavior can be very interesting.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Jobill,

Why should she give up her affair? She has her boss as a lover. She has her comfortable house. She has you to take care of the mundane things in her life like marriage and children so she can play. Tell me, why should she change a thing? She has it all right now.


You need to understand right now you have no leverage in the relationship. She is going to do whatever she wants because she knows there won't be any consequences. Unless you are willing to let your marriage go you cannot save it. If you read other threads on TAM that is the message you should take away. Here is your situation in a nutshell. If you do nothing and she goes on this business trip your marriage is over and done. It might take a few months after she comes back but its going to end. When someone is in the fog they will not listen to reason. They do not care about your feelings. They do not care about the feelings or the welfare of their children. They only care about the affair.

In order to shock them out of the fog they need a reality check. A wake up call that makes them see reality for what it is. In your case you have to file for divorce. It takes months for it to go through and you can cancel it at any time but she needs this slap in the face in order to get through to her. Tell her she WILL cancel her business trip. Tell her if she doesn't you WILL file for divorce while she is gone. Tell her your marriage WILL END if she goes. And mean it. If she does go, file for divorce. When she is served she will know you mean business. You have to show power and determination. She doesn't respect you. She looks at you like you are a child and her boss is GOD. Take the power back.

And do the 180 hard! She needs to see you are serious. She needs to be afraid of losing something. You can either heed the advice that you've been given or you can slowly watch your marriage die like so many others here on TAM have done. Check out some other threads. Many of the betrayed spouses that followed this advice saved their marriages. The ones that didn't saw their marriages die before their eyes. Its not a guarantee to work but its a guarantee that if you don't do this your marriage is over.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

Read marksaysay's thread.

Actually, you can just skim through first two pages and last two pages of it. It will outline the future that expects you, if you succumb to inaction.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

snap said:


> Read marksaysay's thread.
> 
> Actually, you can just skim through first two pages and last two pages of it. It will outline the future that expects you, if you succumb to inaction.


I hope it doesnt include the "pining away for her the rest of his life" part.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hunger (Mar 26, 2012)

CantSitStill said:


> For me it was the attention, the compliments, someone whom I thought was really in love with me..weird how it was all about me tho..how I came out of the fog was the OM stopped talking to me after I left hubby which made me so angry because it was all about me..I claimed to love this guy but honestly never cared about anything in his own personal life..it was what I even admitted was my selfish phase..Why is it I worry about hubby if he is unwell or hurt or ect.. With the OM it was about what I got from him..who cares about anything else..hard to explain
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is scary that it took the OM not talking for you to be forced out of the fog. Do you think about what would have happened if the OM continued talking to you? I wonder how long if at you would have realized.... 

I am so happy for you that you have rebonded with your hubby and know you still love him. Give me hope for my marriage.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Hunger, I think it only would have lasted for a little while.. I believe he was feeding me alot of lies.. He didn't care, I was begging for help and got no response. Calvin came to my resue, he's my hero. I am forever thankfull.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hunger (Mar 26, 2012)

CantSitStill said:


> Hunger, I think it only would have lasted for a little while.. I believe he was feeding me alot of lies.. He didn't care, I was begging for help and got no response. Calvin came to my resue, he's my hero. I am forever thankfull.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 That is good. ;-)


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Hunger said:


> That is scary that it took the OM not talking for you to be forced out of the fog. Do you think about what would have happened if the OM continued talking to you? I wonder how long if at you would have realized....
> 
> I am so happy for you that you have rebonded with your hubby and know you still love him. Give me hope for my marriage.


I believe in every case there is a specific point in time when all the planets align so to speak and the WS can be broken out of the fog. If that moment passes oftentimes things get too far along and reconciliation is much more difficult and sometimes impossible. In CSS and Calvin's case it was the OM's lack of communication and Calvin's caring nature that turned the tide. In my and Morrigan's case it was her seeing my son and I playing and enjoying each other's company. I'm not a huge believer in destiny, soul-mates and all that but I do believe that things happen for a reason and we need to take hold of those fleeting moments and hang on for dear life.


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## Hunger (Mar 26, 2012)

Being in the “fog” was excruciating for me because I knew I was not acting like myself; yet I didn’t stop because I was so consumed in this secret second life I had just created. It was a win/lose situation. I felt such an incredible high every time I would hear from the OM and on the other side of the continuum I was incredible confused/lost and always feeling an incredible amount of guilt knowing what I was doing was wrong wrong wrong; although it felt so right at the time. I would rationalize to myself on a daily basis as to why I could keep contact and still work on my currently situation with my husband. Being in a fog caused me to have absolutely no compassion and love for my husband when he was in agonizing pain due to my affair. I would sit with my husband and talk to him about everything, but mentally I was not there. Just my body. My every thought was with the OM. The OM and I would even have conversations about how wrong it was to talk to each other and how I should stop if I love my husband or wanted to go about things the “right way” and I would agree and be good for days with NC and then I would contact him because I didn’t want to let go. I felt like I was a drug addict that couldn’t stop. It was nuts. I craved hearing his voice or even just a little text message. Just a simple text message would cure that craving. It makes complete since that it is exactly like an addiction. I finally had to tell myself over and over again that it is a FOG… I am being blindsided and my OWN mind is playing tricks on me. I realized that I had to quit trying to explain to myself just “why” I kept talking to the OM and blaming it on a lack of love for my husband because it would be the same if I was hooked on cocaine and trying to “explain” to myself what is wrong in my life that I can’t let go of cocaine. The problem is the addiction. The substance. Unless the substance is gone, there is no clear way to figure out what is truly the underlying problem. 

My symptoms of the fog were: 

no love for H, no compassion for H, no respect for H, constant obsessing thoughts of OM, rationalizing wrong-doings, focusing on negatives of H and our relationship, re-writing marital history, no concentration at work, highs from talking to OM, lies and deceit with no consequences besides my sanity and the cost of my husband’s soul… etc.. I could probably go on… 

Parts of me still believe I am in the fog because of the lack of “romantic” feelings for my husband, but I feel like some things are coming back. I look at my husband and I can feel and pain and I want to hug him and comfort him. Before I could clearly see how broken and hurt he was but I was so cold and wouldn’t allow myself to reach out. I was brutal. It’s almost as if I knew I should comfort him but I just wouldn’t because I didn’t “feel” it. I also find myself thinking less and less of the OM and realizing that the disadvantages of leaving my marriage and starting a new unknown life greatly outweigh the advantages of staying and giving our marriage a fighting chance. 

It comes down to yes, the fog is indeed real and extremely addictive. I saw the damage and pain I was causing but the thick fog was clouding my judgment and not allowing reality to set in. Overall, it was not worth it and I would do anything to take back what I had caused my husband, family, and friends.


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## Hunger (Mar 26, 2012)

It took 3 D Days to finally STOP. :/


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## Ingalls (Mar 7, 2012)

Beowulf said:


> I believe in every case there is a specific point in time when all the planets align so to speak and the WS can be broken out of the fog. If that moment passes oftentimes things get too far along and reconciliation is much more difficult and sometimes impossible. In CSS and Calvin's case it was the OM's lack of communication and Calvin's caring nature that turned the tide. In my and Morrigan's case it was her seeing my son and I playing and enjoying each other's company. I'm not a huge believer in destiny, soul-mates and all that but I do believe that things happen for a reason and we need to take hold of those fleeting moments and hang on for dear life.


Do you think a person could go through the FOG...then have that perfect connecting moment...then go back to the FOG?


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Hunger it sounds like you are slowly moving forward with your hubby. Like your post says..baby steps  as for the fog, you described it perfectly..I am so thankful to be back..literally here mentally and physically because like you I was sooo not here for a long time. I was soo distracted by the OM
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

I will do everything in my power to NEVER go back.. I have the best husband in the world and almost lost him.. HECK NO..whatever it takes I am going to stick by Calvins side no matter what..if he was to treat me badly he may get a bunch of crap from me but never will i run to another man
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hunger (Mar 26, 2012)

CantSitStill said:


> Hunger it sounds like you are slowly moving forward with your hubby. Like your post says..baby steps  as for the fog, you described it perfectly..I am so thankful to be back..literally here mentally and physically because like you I was sooo not here for a long time. I was soo distracted by the OM
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes baby steps indeed. I love spending time with him and just being around him... I see that as a good start. :smthumbup:


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

You describe it very well Hunger. My AP and I would have similar conversations about how what we were doing was bad, was all fantasy and we should stop - we'd "break up" one evening and the next morning be right back at it. We even had a running joke for it - we'd say "head in the sand - head in the sand" when we gave in and resumed the EA.


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## Hunger (Mar 26, 2012)

sigma1299 said:


> You describe it very well Hunger. My AP and I would have similar conversations about how what we were doing was bad, was all fantasy and we should stop - we'd "break up" one evening and the next morning be right back at it. We even had a running joke for it - we'd say "head in the sand - head in the sand" when we gave in and resumed the EA.


Oh geez...... joking about consuiming the soul of your BS. Harsh. :/ Definitely a fog there.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Definitely not one of my finer moments. It was really more a joke about how much denial we were in and how powerless both of us were to quit. Like everything else about an affair - it wasn't about our spouses.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Ingalls said:


> Do you think a person could go through the FOG...then have that perfect connecting moment...then go back to the FOG?


Yes, I do. But that moment will become a seed in the WS's mind eventually leading them back to reality. I think it depends also on how thick the fog is; i.e. how long they were in the affair and how intense it was.


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## Hunger (Mar 26, 2012)

sigma1299 said:


> Definitely not one of my finer moments. It was really more a joke about how much denial we were in and how powerless both of us were to quit. Like everything else about an affair - it wasn't about our spouses.


Right well I didnt mean that you were joking about your spouses... but in fact that was what was happening with remaining in contact. I was hoping you would make sense of what I said. ;-)


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

My bf said that there was a moment when it became too obvious that his EA was really wanting a bf/ gf relationship with him and "not just friends" as she kept trying to cover it.


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## Hunger (Mar 26, 2012)

Beowulf said:


> Sigma explains the thought process extremely well. The biological process is rather simple. Man meets woman. Man is attracted to woman. Woman is attracted to man. If each is already in a committed relationship and all is well man does not pursue woman and woman does not pursue man. In most people good levels of oxytocin (the feeling of closeness you get after sex) is enough to prevent the brain from looking for dopamine shots. So in stable relationships attraction usually stays at that level and advances no further. But....
> 
> If their relationships are not going well they turn to each other. In other words if the man is not receiving regular brain shots of oxytocin (bonding) and dopamine (attraction) from his wife and woman is not receiving regular brain shots from her husband they turn to each other (because they are already attracted) for those brain stimulants.
> 
> ...


I printed this out today. 

Today is a hard day for some reason. :/ Just trying to stay STRONG. This helped. Thank you.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Hunger said:


> I printed this out today.
> 
> Today is a hard day for some reason. :/ Just trying to stay STRONG. This helped. Thank you.


I'm glad it helps. You're going to have good days and bad days. Just keep the big picture in mind and know that tomorrow will be better.


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## ilovechocolate (Jan 16, 2012)

I think my H started coming out of fog when O/W started to put pressure on him to leave me - as far as she was concerned our marriage wad dead and he should have been with her - maybe the fog affects both parties - she was getting her "hit" off him as he was getting his "hit" off her?
Although she is single, the secrecy and danger of being involved with a married man was keeping her on a high.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Good point about them getting their "fix",I think,I'm sure my wife was getting her "hit",OM was looking to get laid and I think he took her for a ride, since he has nothing and I have everything to make a comfortable home,I've planed things out years ago and stuck to it,I always had long term goals,his "goals" were short term,he only looked at what would satisfy for the time being.If he was her "soul mate" like he said,then why did he give up so easily. A born bullsh!iter,feel sorry for the next girl that buys his line of crap

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

Fog, schmog. They're grown people capable of making rational decisions. An affair they rationalized into fruition.


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## Suzyque (Apr 6, 2012)

ilovechocolate said:


> A question to the WS - have read loads about "The Fog" is it really that addictive? Do you really not see the damage and pain on the way? And when it s all over Was it really worth it?
> 
> Just cant understand how something built on lies and deception can be so "good"



I've only read the first post of this huge thread, but before I get too overwhelmed to answer:

1) Yes
2) Yes
3) No
4) I was lying and deceiving myself that it was "good"


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Complexity said:


> Fog, schmog. They're grown people capable of making rational decisions. An affair they rationalized into fruition.


Complexity, I'm surprised. Like I've said before Dopamine addiction is an explanation not an excuse but it is real. There have been numerous studies show that confirm this. But just like an alcoholic or a drug addict the person must be held accountable for their actions even if they weren't in their right minds.

When Morrigan came clean about her affair and as we made our way through R, I saw the confusion and withdrawals she was going through. Of course I was somewhat less than sympathetic at the time. However, looking back on it we can now discuss things more rationally. Tell me, when she talks about her thought processes and her feelings from those days should I dismiss her introspection and demonize her for trying to mitigate her expiation?


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best (Feb 28, 2011)

Suzyque said:


> I've only read the first post of this huge thread, but before I get too overwhelmed to answer:
> 
> 1) Yes
> 2) Yes
> ...


good.
hopefully you can now see the wrong and the pain caused from it so it wont ever happen again?


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## ilovechocolate (Jan 16, 2012)

I would like to thank everyone for posting on this thread, although idoes nt take away the pain it helps to understand, I actually showed H the thread off Pit (never say never) and he said he could recogonise so many things in the thread , he had heard of dopamene but did nt realise it could be produced naturally in the body . Trying to focus on the future now, as I wrote on another thread - 24 years of marriage V 13 months Affair? Wish me luck


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

I showed my H that thread too(the fog) and he also recognized himself...it was the beginning of his realization that he really had been in an EA and the mess that it had caused and that he HAD to come out of it IF he wanted to stay married. He realized that what he felt for OW wasnt based on reality. ...It really started to move him forward.


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