# Male leadership?



## RDJ

I removed this post some time back, can't recall why?

I have not had as much time to spend here on TAM, but in trying to catch up, I think it's worth re-posting? I guess I should say that "It's my opinion".

The average woman is much more connected to a sense of energy and flow. She feels things more deeply than men do; she is much more sensitive to subtle changes in energy. 

This is why a woman can own 12 different pairs of red shoes. They all feel different to her. Women spend much of their time trying to create the feelings that they want to have, and avoid the feelings that they do not want to have. 

The key to being happy and fulfilled as a woman is to create happy flows of energy and then allow herself to fully enjoy them; this is why many women get so excited about holidays. 

They are anticipating that there will be lots of positive energy flowing that they will be able to enjoy.

The downside to this is that women sometimes get themselves trapped in flows that they do not enjoy. The car is making a funny noise and they are worried about it. Every time the car makes that noise it puts them back into a worried state, and they do not want to worry. Thus, they hound their husband to get the car fixed so that they will not have to experience that worry any more. This desire to avoid any and all negative feelings is also why many women withdraw from their husbands in marriage. Let’s say that she has shut down to sex with her husband due to past hurts and resentment. When her husband mentions sex, she is reminded of these things. She does not want to feel this way so she avoids him, avoids intimacy, and avoids the subject of sex.

Men are much more connected to ideas and goals. We spend a lot of time analyzing and thinking about things. We are much less affected by feelings and thus we can ignore things like a noise the car is making or how uncomfortable discussions about sex are. We are focused on the goal and we continually work toward it, regardless of what feelings may come up. Of course, there are limits to this. However, I think it is safe to say that men are not ruled by feelings as much as women are.

This is why men can, and should, take on a role of comforter and protector for their wives. When something negative is happening a woman will tend to get caught in that negative flow. She feels it deeply and will have trouble extracting herself from it. She needs her man to stay calm and confident and create a sense of safety and comfort that she can align herself with. 

She feels his strength and uses it to bring herself back to a more enjoyable state. She is feeding off of the calm and reassuring energy that he is projecting. He is being the anchor that prevents her from being carried away on the waves of negative energy.

Thus, the gift that a strong masculine, understanding, supportive, loving man brings to the marriage is emotional stability. This allows his wife to be feminine, and fully enjoy riding the waves of energy that come through her husband because she knows that if things start going in a negative direction, she can count on him to be strong. Her man will be there to provide the strong and stable anchor that allows her to feel safe and protected.

To lead does NOT mean that a man needs to always be telling his wife what to do. That would be the equivalent of taking a beautiful bird and putting it in a cage. The more that you try to constrain the feminine, the less brightly it shines. Women need freedom to explore the flows of energy that they enjoy.

Rather, leading means that you provide strength and purpose when and where it is needed. You are always tuned in to what your wife's energy is, and you step in to help her when you sense it going in a negative direction. If the car is worrying her then you get it fixed. If she is depressed then you offer her a hug and remind her that she is loved. If she has shut down to your behaviors, you change (within reason) your undesirable behaviors. You, as her husband, help her move back toward the positive energy that she wants to experience. When she is happy and glowing, you just leave her be. In that moment, she does not need your leadership. She only needs you to appreciate and acknowledge the beauty that she brings to your life.

As a man, and a proper leader, you also ensure that your joint world is structured in a way that ensures things stay stable and positive. A leader has a vision of what is best for himself, his wife, and his family. This vision is his number one drive in life. He strives to create what is good and benefits the happiness of his family. He evaluates this vision daily, he navigates his way through obstacles and focuses on his path. He is unwavering in his goal. He shares his vision with his wife, he asks for feedback, and he listens to his wife's concerns, thoughts, and ideas. He evaluates his vision based on both of their thoughts and makes the best decision in moving forward. 

A leader takes responsibility for his failures, and shares with his wife their successes.

A leader is confident in his abilities, he does not bow down to influences from others, he does not quit when he suffers a setback. He learns from his mistakes and he always moves forward. 

A leader does not control, he "guides" through his character, his beliefs, his integrity, his high standards, and his sense of honor to himself, his wife, and his family. He is committed.

A woman is equal to a man; a leader will never allow a woman to fear that he does not know the difference between leading and controlling. A leader does not expect a woman to submit to a man’s control, or be led through fear and manipulation.

A leader walks side by side, hand in hand with his wife. If he steps in front of her, it is to protect and defend her. If he steps behind her, it is to support her and keep her from falling.

That is a MAN, a man that most women will be happy to follow.


----------



## rj700

Some interesting "analysis". Of course there are a lot of generalities there that do not apply to all people or all situations. Still, very well written.



> Men are much more connected to ideas and goals. We spend a lot of time analyzing and thinking about things. We are much less affected by feelings and thus we can ignore things like a noise the car is making or how uncomfortable discussions about sex are. We are focused on the goal and we continually work toward it, regardless of what feelings may come up.


I think the trap that men tend to fall into is becoming too focused on a single idea or goal to the detriment of other things or people.

I think the other trap is ignoring your feelings or not really understanding them.



> If she has shut down to your behaviors, you change (within reason) your undesirable behaviors


This of course assumes that you know which behaviors have caused her to shutdown. Sounds easy, but it assumes you understand what she is thinking and why.


----------



## norajane

Poor ladies, how would they ever survive without a man to lead them? I guess all the single ladies will remain stuck without a man to guide them. 

How fortunate are all the married ladies who have a man who will generously "consider" their input on _*his *_vision for _their _lives!

Poor ladies, too carried away by emotion to think and do rationally. How would they ever manage to extricate themselves from the negative emotion trap to make an appointment with the car mechanic if they didn't have a man to lead them out of it?

Really? You're selling both men and women short.


----------



## MEM2020

YES to ALL this

I want to add something. When my W feels supported and is in a good place - she lights up the entire house. That energy and flow, when it is channeled well - she radiates it back out. 

She does this by: Slowly, artfully and magically making the house and yard more beautiful. Filling the house with the sound of her laughter and the light of her smile. Warming the children and me with her love. 

So this - support that I provide - does require time, treasure and talent. And yet what is returned is absolutely priceless.....




RDJ said:


> I removed this post some time back, can't recall why?
> 
> I have not had as much time to spend here on TAM, but in trying to catch up, I think it's worth re-posting? I guess I should say that "It's my opinion".
> 
> The average woman is much more connected to a sense of energy and flow. She feels things more deeply than men do; she is much more sensitive to subtle changes in energy.
> 
> This is why a woman can own 12 different pairs of red shoes. They all feel different to her. Women spend much of their time trying to create the feelings that they want to have, and avoid the feelings that they do not want to have.
> 
> The key to being happy and fulfilled as a woman is to create happy flows of energy and then allow herself to fully enjoy them; this is why many women get so excited about holidays.
> 
> They are anticipating that there will be lots of positive energy flowing that they will be able to enjoy.
> 
> The downside to this is that women sometimes get themselves trapped in flows that they do not enjoy. The car is making a funny noise and they are worried about it. Every time the car makes that noise it puts them back into a worried state, and they do not want to worry. Thus, they hound their husband to get the car fixed so that they will not have to experience that worry any more. This desire to avoid any and all negative feelings is also why many women withdraw from their husbands in marriage. Let’s say that she has shut down to sex with her husband due to past hurts and resentment. When her husband mentions sex, she is reminded of these things. She does not want to feel this way so she avoids him, avoids intimacy, and avoids the subject of sex.
> 
> Men are much more connected to ideas and goals. We spend a lot of time analyzing and thinking about things. We are much less affected by feelings and thus we can ignore things like a noise the car is making or how uncomfortable discussions about sex are. We are focused on the goal and we continually work toward it, regardless of what feelings may come up. Of course, there are limits to this. However, I think it is safe to say that men are not ruled by feelings as much as women are.
> 
> This is why men can, and should, take on a role of comforter and protector for their wives. When something negative is happening a woman will tend to get caught in that negative flow. She feels it deeply and will have trouble extracting herself from it. She needs her man to stay calm and confident and create a sense of safety and comfort that she can align herself with.
> 
> She feels his strength and uses it to bring herself back to a more enjoyable state. She is feeding off of the calm and reassuring energy that he is projecting. He is being the anchor that prevents her from being carried away on the waves of negative energy.
> 
> Thus, the gift that a strong masculine, understanding, supportive, loving man brings to the marriage is emotional stability. This allows his wife to be feminine, and fully enjoy riding the waves of energy that come through her husband because she knows that if things start going in a negative direction, she can count on him to be strong. Her man will be there to provide the strong and stable anchor that allows her to feel safe and protected.
> 
> To lead does NOT mean that a man needs to always be telling his wife what to do. That would be the equivalent of taking a beautiful bird and putting it in a cage. The more that you try to constrain the feminine, the less brightly it shines. Women need freedom to explore the flows of energy that they enjoy.
> 
> Rather, leading means that you provide strength and purpose when and where it is needed. You are always tuned in to what your wife's energy is, and you step in to help her when you sense it going in a negative direction. If the car is worrying her then you get it fixed. If she is depressed then you offer her a hug and remind her that she is loved. If she has shut down to your behaviors, you change (within reason) your undesirable behaviors. You, as her husband, help her move back toward the positive energy that she wants to experience. When she is happy and glowing, you just leave her be. In that moment, she does not need your leadership. She only needs you to appreciate and acknowledge the beauty that she brings to your life.
> 
> As a man, and a proper leader, you also ensure that your joint world is structured in a way that ensures things stay stable and positive. A leader has a vision of what is best for himself, his wife, and his family. This vision is his number one drive in life. He strives to create what is good and benefits the happiness of his family. He evaluates this vision daily, he navigates his way through obstacles and focuses on his path. He is unwavering in his goal. He shares his vision with his wife, he asks for feedback, and he listens to his wife's concerns, thoughts, and ideas. He evaluates his vision based on both of their thoughts and makes the best decision in moving forward.
> 
> A leader takes responsibility for his failures, and shares with his wife their successes.
> 
> A leader is confident in his abilities, he does not bow down to influences from others, he does not quit when he suffers a setback. He learns from his mistakes and he always moves forward.
> 
> A leader does not control, he "guides" through his character, his beliefs, his integrity, his high standards, and his sense of honor to himself, his wife, and his family. He is committed.
> 
> A woman is equal to a man; a leader will never allow a woman to fear that he does not know the difference between leading and controlling. A leader does not expect a woman to submit to a man’s control, or be led through fear and manipulation.
> 
> A leader walks side by side, hand in hand with his wife. If he steps in front of her, it is to protect and defend her. If he steps behind her, it is to support her and keep her from falling.
> 
> That is a MAN, a man that most women will be happy to follow.


----------



## jfv

Taken In Hand


----------



## Trenton

I remember a similar post from you that I contributed to in the past. I think I was disturbed by this idea that a man must lead because a woman's femininity and emotions leave her vulnerable, hence the need for a leader.

I think a man's need to lead and feel as if he is the provider is ego driven and rooted in insecurity, rather than born out of a necessity for a woman to be happy in a relationship and feel secure.

If you allow a woman to truly shine, you will have confidence that she is capable of leading on her own but enjoy her company and "energy" enough to want to walk side by side with her.


----------



## RDJ

Ladies, I understand what your saying. My wife feels and would say the same thing. And I do have a 50/50 relationship.

It does not change the fact (for my wife anyway) that she is far more prone to react to her emotions than I.

Without even knowing it, she turns to my leadership to guide her out of her emotional funks and ups and downs, that her girlfriends, sisters, and even herself cannot!

Not trying to force my opinion, just expressing it.

I value your replies, I'm always willing to learn, but this one I believe to be true. At least at my house.


----------



## Trenton

RDJ said:


> Ladies, I understand what your saying. My wife feels and would say the same thing. And I do have a 50/50 relationship.
> 
> It does not change the fact (for my wife anyway) that she is far more prone to react to her emotions than I.
> 
> Without even knowing it, she turns to my leadership to guide her out of her emotional funks and ups and downs, that her girlfriends, sisters, and even herself cannot!
> 
> Not trying to force my opinion, just expressing it.
> 
> I value your replies, I'm always willing to learn, but this one I believe to be true. At least at my house.


I wonder, RDJ, do you value logic and reasoning over intuition and feelings? Do you think they are equally valuable but lend to different strengths/weaknesses?

I think the later is true as both have their place but we as a society dislike this idea that emotions give way to strength, when in reality, emotions range from everything from hysterics to heroics.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

I love this post, and I think more men would Benifit greatly by behaving in such a manner.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## norajane

RDJ said:


> Ladies, I understand what your saying. My wife feels and would say the same thing. And I do have a 50/50 relationship.
> 
> It does not change the fact (for my wife anyway) that she is far more prone to react to her emotions than I.
> 
> Without even knowing it, she turns to my leadership to guide her out of her emotional funks and ups and downs, that her girlfriends, sisters, and even herself cannot!
> 
> Not trying to force my opinion, just expressing it.
> 
> I value your replies, I'm always willing to learn, but this one I believe to be true. At least at my house.


I am sure that your support means the most to her and is the most comforting to her, _of course_ it is. Because your lives are entwined and you share a bond unlike any other in your lives. So of course she turns to you when she's troubled most deeply. Just as you would turn to her, right?

That's not the same as the interpretation you have put on her behavior, which sounds paternalistic and patronizing.


----------



## RDJ

I can only speak from my own experience.

33 years with my wife. Started out being a leader, from a place of love. Had many good years.

I stopped leading from a place of love. After doing this for a few years, she had an EA with a close friend. He gave her leadership and stability. (partially my fault. I did not provide what she needed from me. Not an excuse for her, just the way life can be)

I again learned to lead from a place of love.

I did not say control, my wife is free to do as she wish's, even cheat if thats what she wants. she just looses me in the process.

I provide emotional strength because she lives through emotion. I do not.

In my world, as long as I lead through love and do not abuse it. It works, if I do not, it does not. 

I share my thoughts. Agree or not, no worries!

For some, it may help. Those are the ones I take the time to post for.

I do however enjoy reading how things work for the rest of you.


----------



## Kathrynthegreat

I don't even own 12 pairs of shoes, let alone 12 pairs of red shoes. Also, when my car makes a funny noise, I fracking _fix_ it.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Nice thread RDJ, even if it is a little wordy. One of our earlier marriage counselors made fun of "couple's navigation" while he was talking to someone else on the phone. I really didn't get the joke at the time. But after running aground, falling off a cliff and even making a trip through a fiery furnace, I wish I had just done what you say in the first place


----------



## Kathrynthegreat

RDJ said:


> The key to being happy and fulfilled as a woman is to create happy flows of energy and then allow herself to fully enjoy them; this is why many women get so excited about holidays.


----------



## RDJ

Kathrynthegreat said:


>


:rofl::rofl::rofl:

That was good!


----------



## Kathrynthegreat

Glad you took it in the spirit in which it was meant.


----------



## lovingsummer

I personally love this, thank you for posting


----------



## RDJ

Allow me to give an example from tonight.

I am writing out a stack of bills while my wife is going through the visa receipts.

She does not want to do it, it's a big job. So she is allowing herself to get all pissy and makes a comment with every little purchase that she does not like.

The purchase is not the issue, the issue is that she does not want to do it. Now I can say nothing, or I can get pissy back with her.

We all know where that is going to lead.

I say to her "Now you can sit there and get all pissy and ruin the night for both of us. Or you can just get the job done as I am. When we are finished, we can enjoy the rest of the night. Your choice?"

Had I not done this she would have just esculated. If I said nothing, I allow her to think it's ok for her to act this way. It is not. I do not treat her in this manner. It is not conducive to a mutually happy marriage.

She chose to quit being pissy and finish the jobs we were doing. We will now enjoy the rest of our night togather.

In my opinion, that is necessary "male leadership".

She may not like it, but it is whats best for OUR marriage.

Thoughts????


----------



## lovingsummer

If my H did that more, I'd probably b*tch alot less  ... well, maybe... jk


----------



## Kathrynthegreat

RDJ said:


> In my opinion, that is necessary "male leadership".
> 
> She may not like it, but it is whats best for OUR marriage.
> 
> Thoughts????


My thoughts are that this is less male leadership and more your wife sh** testing you. Those of us females who have been alone a while (even when I was married my husband was gone 5 days out of 7) just don't have the luxury of allowing our emotions to rule in the way you describe. I'd never get a blessed thing done. I think that maybe living on emotion may be something women do when they have the luxury of a man to bounce it off of. Not having had that luxury, I can't fathom it. I do what needs to be done and move onto the next thing.

If you hadn't been there at all, the receipts would have been sorted with a lot less drama. Her little show was for _your_ benefit, and she got the Alpha display she wanted out of you.


----------



## Cosmos

Good post, OP. I particularly like:-



> To lead does NOT mean that a man needs to always be telling his wife what to do. That would be the equivalent of taking a beautiful bird and putting it in a cage. The more that you try to constrain the feminine, the less brightly it shines. Women need freedom to explore the flows of energy that they enjoy.


and



> A leader walks side by side, hand in hand with his wife. If he steps in front of her, it is to protect and defend her. If he steps behind her, it is to support her and keep her from falling.


----------



## Caribbean Man

RDJ said:


> Men are much more connected to ideas and goals. We spend a lot of time analyzing and thinking about things.
> 
> *As a man, and a proper leader, you also ensure that your joint world is structured in a way that ensures things stay stable and positive.* A leader has a vision of what is best for himself, his wife, and his family. This vision is his number one drive in life. He strives to create what is good and benefits the happiness of his family. He evaluates this vision daily, he navigates his way through obstacles and focuses on his path. He is unwavering in his goal. He shares his vision with his wife, he asks for feedback, and he listens to his wife's concerns, thoughts, and ideas. He evaluates his vision based on both of their thoughts and makes the best decision in moving forward.
> 
> *A leader takes responsibility for his failures, and shares with his wife their successes.
> 
> A leader is confident in his abilities, he does not bow down to influences from others, he does not quit when he suffers a setback. He learns from his mistakes and he always moves forward.
> 
> A leader does not control, he "guides" through his character, his beliefs, his integrity, his high standards, and his sense of honor to himself, his wife, and his family. He is committed.
> 
> A woman is equal to a man; a leader will never allow a woman to fear that he does not know the difference between leading and controlling. A leader does not expect a woman to submit to a man’s control, or be led through fear and manipulation.
> 
> A leader walks side by side, hand in hand with his wife. If he steps in front of her, it is to protect and defend her. If he steps behind her, it is to support her and keep her from falling.
> 
> That is a MAN, a man that most women will be happy to follow.*


:iagree:

Thanks for posting.
So much food for thought!
Looking forward to some discussion and ideas.


----------



## Caribbean Man

RDJ said:


> Allow me to give an example from tonight.
> 
> I am writing out a stack of bills while my wife is going through the visa receipts.
> 
> She does not want to do it, it's a big job. So she is allowing herself to get all pissy and makes a comment with every little purchase that she does not like.
> 
> The purchase is not the issue, the issue is that she does not want to do it. Now I can say nothing, or I can get pissy back with her.
> 
> We all know where that is going to lead.
> 
> *I say to her "Now you can sit there and get all pissy and ruin the night for both of us. Or you can just get the job done as I am. When we are finished, we can enjoy the rest of the night. Your choice?"
> 
> Had I not done this she would have just esculated. If I said nothing, I allow her to think it's ok for her to act this way. It is not. I do not treat her in this manner. It is not conducive to a mutually happy marriage.*
> 
> *She chose to quit being pissy and finish the jobs we were doing. We will now enjoy the rest of our night togather.
> 
> In my opinion, that is necessary "male leadership".
> 
> She may not like it, but it is whats best for OUR marriage*.
> 
> Thoughts????


Stuff like this happens in our relationship too.
I have learnt that when my wife acts like this,it may not be that she wants to start a fight.

I have recognized that how it is handled by me , contributes somewhat to the general atmosphere or positive energy between us.


----------



## Cosmos

> RDJ posted: She chose to quit being pissy and finish the jobs we were doing. We will now enjoy the rest of our night togather.


And why did she quit being pissy? Because you stayed in your adult ego state instead of playing 'let's get pissy' with her. You stayed focused and gave the task the direction that it needed. That indicates a healthy level of emotional maturity, IMO


----------



## Caribbean Man

Cosmos said:


> And why did she quit being pissy? Because you stayed in your adult ego state instead of playing 'let's get pissy' with her. *You stayed focused and gave the task the direction that it needed. That indicates a healthy level of emotional maturity, IMO *


Exactly what I wanted to say!


----------



## AFEH

I have a problem visualising the scene.

Sounds to me like you’ve a negative, somewhat unappreciative and disrespectful woman on your hands.

If that’s a fair description, is there a valid reason why she’s that way? Is she depressed? Does she lead a healthy eating and exercise type life? Does she feel fulfilled by her work or home life?

Were any of her complaints valid? Did she feel listened to?



Who’s the main breadwinner, the one who earns the money to pay the bills?


If that’s you I think you need to turn it around so she has more respect and more appreciation for what you do for her, it sounds like you are being taken for granted and is that’s a big bad. If she truly knows what sort of guy she has in her hands then just maybe she’ll become a more positive and optimistic type of woman.


----------



## AFEH

A big part of leadership is motivating people. I can't see in your post where as a leader you motivated your wife! To me you responded to her as a parent or manager would, not as a leader would. I think that primarily because you are a Thinker, not a Feeler. Thinkers make good managers, you need to work on that Feeler to get into the emotional side of things to motivate people. Other than with a stick anyway. These things are much better done with carrots.



I used to work with a model of Affiliators, Avoiders, Power Boss, Manipulator and Achiever type people. They need different types of motivation and handling. Your wife sounds like an Avoider, they can be very detailed in their work and very negative and as you may imagine have an important roll to play in any team. Want a product or something checked out in detail, give the task to an Avoider. They wont make any decisions as such, but they will tell you in some detail what's wrong with it so you can make the judgment to buy or not.

Perhaps if you’ve both done your Myers Briggs profile that will help you a lot with how to get your wife motivated and as importantly how not to demotivate her.



But irrespective of what type of person your wife is make it fun. Think fun, humour, laughter. For example if you haven’t handcuffs and a whip then buy some and next time put them on the table with a big smile on your face and tell her what they’re for. See if she will play flirt with you and laugh while you’re doing the task.

Or get yourself 20 one dollar bills and put them on the table in front of her. When she asks what they’re for, tell her every time she makes an invalid complaint she puts a dollar bill in the jar you have in your hands. Again make it fun and see if she’ll play with you.

Or get yourself a little notebook and a set of stars they use in schools. Every time she doesn’t complain about an item give her a star, when she does complain think of something negative to do. This is not serious stuff, you’re making it fun. If she starts arguing and laughing over wanting more stars you’re onto a winner.



Get creative, think motivation and think fun. You need to get it such that next time she actually looks forward to laughing and having fun with you, the task as a secondary issue.


----------



## RDJ

Trenton said:


> I wonder, RDJ, do you value logic and reasoning over intuition and feelings? Do you think they are equally valuable but lend to different strengths/weaknesses?
> 
> I think the later is true as both have their place but we as a society dislike this idea that emotions give way to strength, when in reality, emotions range from everything from hysterics to heroics.


I don't think I know how to answer this. (not the sharpest pencil in the box)

I will try to express something about my "leadership".

I do not dictate, I do not opress, I do not ask my wife to submit to me as a man.

I ask my wife to submit to the greater good of our marriage. A big key being that I do the same for her.

As I, my wife has the freedom to speak her mind, to express what she needs without my being judgemental, insecure, angry, or any other BS behavior.

It's not just about me any more than it's just about her, It's about us. Again, the greater good of our marriage.

Do I take the lead? More often than not, not because I am the "man", I am simply less swayed by emotion.

If my leadership comes from the greater good of our marriage, is it really that bad?

I appreciate your challenging my thoughts. Through challenge comes growth.


----------



## RDJ

AFEH,

Allow me to hit a few highlights here.

My wife and I are equal in saleries and just about everything else. We split all chores. Just that simple.

We are both managers, her in the medical field. Very high stress and a whole lot of drama that affects her emotions.

I do not do things to change my wifes behavior. She is who she is, I accept that and love her for the person she is. I ask nothing less in return.

But we are human. We have flaws, moods, good times and bad.

I take the lead, as I expressed to Trenton, for the greater good of our marriage.

It works for my marriage. If it helps someone else, great.

not sure what else I can say here?

Thanks for your thoughts.


----------



## AFEH

RDJ said:


> AFEH,
> 
> Allow me to hit a few highlights here.
> 
> My wife and I are equal in saleries and just about everything else. We split all chores. Just that simple.
> 
> We are both managers, her in the medical field. Very high stress and a whole lot of drama that affects her emotions.
> 
> *I do not do things to change my wifes behavior. *She is who she is, I accept that and love her for the person she is. I ask nothing less in return.
> 
> But we are human. We have flaws, moods, good times and bad.
> 
> I take the lead, as I expressed to Trenton, for the greater good of our marriage.
> 
> It works for my marriage. If it helps someone else, great.
> 
> not sure what else I can say here?
> 
> Thanks for your thoughts.


You really are a big time “Thinker” as per Jung/Myers Briggs.

Believe me you do change your wife’s behaviour. You do change your wife’s moods and you do change her emotions. And you obviously don’t even know it!

No man is an island,
Entire of itself.
Each is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thine own
Or of thine friend's were.
Each man's death diminishes me,
For I am involved in mankind.
Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee. 
John Donne

I hope one day you understand the meaning of what that guy wrote nearly four centuries ago.


----------



## Mavash.

I've finally given up control (mostly - LOL) and my husband does these things for me. Am I capable of fixing my own car and paying my own bills? Yes absolutely. But there is something so beautiful in letting my husband care for me without trying to change me in the process. 

If I want to do something he lets me but lets me know he's more than willing to shoulder the burden for me. He lets me decide how much help I want from him and I'm free. A good leader recognizes the abilities of those they lead and that's what my husband does. He won't force himself on me instead he quietly stands at my side patiently waiting for me to let him take care of me. The choice is mine and I like that.


----------



## RDJ

"*Believe me you do change your wife’s behaviour. You do change your wife’s moods and you do change her emotions. And you obviously don’t even know it*!"

I do realise that I can change my wifes behavior, moods, and emotions. Just as she can change mine.

I do so intentionally. As I said, I do so for the greater good of us both and I try to do so by giving (as stated above) choice!

I try to lead her to change herself if that makes sense?

As for my example with the bills. She had a choice, should she have decided to stay pissy. That would be fine with me, her choice.

I would have finished my job. Gotten up and expressed that I would be in my office if she decided to change her attitude and wanted to enjoy the night. Otherwise I would leave her on her own and see her the next day.

She is free to her moods, but when they affect us in a negative way, she is free to have them on her own.

Again, I ask nothing less in return. She is free to express the same to me when I am negative.

Makes sense to me??


----------



## AFEH

I could write loads on this topic RDJ. Leadership, personalities, psychology, team building, it’s at the very heart of what I did in my career and I love the topic.

I also want to help out, but for me you are looking about 180 degrees in the wrong direction as far as leadership, motivation etc. is concerned. You talk about Management and Control, not Leadership, Inspiration and Motivation. But I don’t, believe it or not, want to p!ss you off.

I will say that being a Thinker you must listen to how your wife Feels about things. Even the money when you’re doing your books. She needs to be heard man. Heard! Believe me you don’t want her talking to another man about what’s inside of her.


----------



## RDJ

AFEH said:


> I could write loads on this topic RDJ. Leadership, personalities, psychology, team building, it’s at the very heart of what I did in my career and I love the topic.
> 
> I also want to help out, but for me you are looking about 180 degrees in the wrong direction as far as leadership, motivation etc. is concerned. You talk about Management and Control, not Leadership, Inspiration and Motivation. But I don’t, believe it or not, want to p!ss you off.
> 
> I will say that being a Thinker you must listen to how your wife Feels about things. Even the money when you’re doing your books. She needs to be heard man. Heard! Believe me you don’t want her talking to another man about what’s inside of her.


No worries AFEH. Whats the old saying "You can't p!ss me off, only I can".

I don't believe that you and I are too far apart. More an issue of my ability to articulate?

My wife is very well heard, as am I. But when it comes down to a $3.00 visa bill. It's more about the attitude than being heard?

In fact, her being heard by another man is what created my growth. My ability to hear her!

This making your points 100% valid.

I don't wish to come off as being a know it all. This is simply what my marriage needed.

We are happy, and life is good for us. Can't ask for more than that eh?

Again, thank you for you comments. I enjoy reading your posts here.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

> *AFEH said*: She needs to be heard man. Heard! Believe me you don’t want her talking to another man about what’s inside of her.



Just my 2 cents, not really following all of this thread....just the last few comments.... but the part about being *"Heard"*....absolutely HUGE with us woman.

I am likely even worse than many. If my husband walked away from me when I am upset, I'd grow even more upset. Even if I know my attituide is bad, I WELCOME Him telling me this - I can handle it !! 

I am the type that likes to talk about it here & now, get it out on the table... only this calms me, I can reason with anyone.... I don't need any cooling off period like alot of people... he knows this very well..... and handles me well. 

I ALWAYS feel heard and I know this is one of the reasons I am so happy with him! I don't even think I would survive with a man who would be running out the door every time things got tense, that would light my fire in a very very bad way. :FIREdevil:


----------



## AFEH

“What a $3 bill! (with a chuckle) Ok. Why not put all the bills you want to discuss to one side and we’ll go through them together”. Get her out of her head and make her think. You sound like you’re treating her as a data entry clerk whose opinions you do not value and whose feelings you do not take into account.

Obviously $3 (?) dollars is insignificant. But her Feelings aren’t. Tell her her Feelings don’t count, even indirectly and she will feel pIssy and insignificant, low self-esteem and all that stuff.


----------



## RDJ

Maybe I am still not being clear?

I "hear" my wife. I do not play games though.

I do not deny her feelings, or mine. We have the right to be angry, pissy, whatever.

If she wish's to be heard, come to me open, nice, respectful, calm, and honest with what you want. I'm all ears, I will do me best to find a mutual compromise.

Come to me b!tching, angry, dis-respectfull, overly emotional, pissy. I do not give this, I do not accept it.

It does not benifit our marriage. There is nothing we can express in a negative way that cannot be expressed in a possitive way.

I lead to possitive for us both?

That make better sense?


----------



## WalkingInLight

Having read the entire thread, I think it's just the simple fact that you, RDJ, and AFEH just simply disagree.

You might continue to argue this, but I doubt very much there will be any kind of meeting in the middle. I think you both clearly understand what the other is saying - you just don't accept/agree with it.

Just my 3 cents worth (inflation).


----------



## AFEH

WalkingInLight said:


> Having read the entire thread, I think it's just the simple fact that you, RDJ, and AFEH just simply disagree.
> 
> You might continue to argue this, but I doubt very much there will be any kind of meeting in the middle. I think you both clearly understand what the other is saying - you just don't accept/agree with it.
> 
> Just my 3 cents worth (inflation).


He's ok, just look at his signature. He doesn't mind a bit of conflict with that sig.


----------



## RDJ

Just to clarify, I do not perceive myself and AFEH as arguing. I see a very intelligent man sharing his perspective. Heck, I’m taking notes.


----------



## Cosmos

RDJ said:


> Maybe I am still not being clear?
> 
> I "hear" my wife. I do not play games though.
> 
> I do not deny her feelings, or mine. We have the right to be angry, pissy, whatever.
> 
> If she wish's to be heard, come to me open, nice, respectful, calm, and honest with what you want. I'm all ears, I will do me best to find a mutual compromise.
> 
> Come to me b!tching, angry, dis-respectfull, overly emotional, pissy. I do not give this, I do not accept it.
> 
> It does not benifit our marriage. There is nothing we can express in a negative way that cannot be expressed in a possitive way.
> 
> I lead to possitive for us both?
> 
> That make better sense?


It makes perfect sense. I call this a healthy, mature boundary.


----------



## Caribbean Man

RDJ said:


> Maybe I am still not being clear?
> 
> *I "hear" my wife. I do not play games though.
> 
> I do not deny her feelings, or mine. We have the right to be angry, pissy, whatever.
> 
> If she wish's to be heard, come to me open, nice, respectful, calm, and honest with what you want. I'm all ears, I will do me best to find a mutual compromise.*
> 
> Come to me b!tching, angry, dis-respectfull, overly emotional, pissy. I do not give this, I do not accept it.
> 
> It does not benifit our marriage. There is nothing we can express in a negative way that cannot be expressed in a possitive way.
> 
> I lead to possitive for us both?
> 
> That make better sense?


:iagree:

This works for us [ my wife & I ] too.
IMO, if something aint broken,
Don't try to " fix " it............

In this world everybody has a solution , yet the problems still multiply.
In any given situation / problem, an applicable solution is what actually works for a particular situation , given all the variables. 
Not a theory that is _supposed_ to work.

There are often many solutions to interpersonal conflicts , but each couple is different.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

> *Caribbean Man said *: here are often many solutions to interpersonal conflicts , but each couple is different.


 You beat me to what I was going to say.




WalkingInLight said:


> Having read the entire thread, I think it's just the simple fact that you, RDJ, and AFEH just simply disagree.
> 
> You might continue to argue this, but I doubt very much there will be any kind of meeting in the middle. I think you both clearly understand what the other is saying - you just don't accept/agree with it.


Can someone explain this disagreement ? I think I am missing it entirely ....Chances are ...they are both right --it just depends on the dynamics of the couple involved & how they personally handle conflict. 

I still hear my husband when he has an attitude, and he still hears me. We don't shut each other up or off, or walk away......we muddle through it, one tries to pick the other up when the other is struggling with something...maybe it is because we know better than to take it too personal & go into attack mode immediately. 

We try to NOT hit below the belt .... as it generally ISN'T personal anyway...... it might be the KIDS that day.....a little pms rearing it's ugly head (I can feel a cloud hovering over me), the Boss riding him that day, dealing with idiot co-workers, who knows.......

I remember about 2 months ago, my husband apologizing to me later one night for his attitude... he said he was sorry , that I didn't deserve how he was treating me.... (his words) I was touched by that, cause the thought never even entered my head that he needed to say a thing to me....I think I walked over & kissed him -.... I joked he sure puts up with ALOT more from my end...or something to that effect. It is just "our way"... but apologetic after the fact....always. 

Chances are, our conflicts are of a much lower caliber than in many marraiges though, we always seem to get something of value out of our little spats.


----------



## RDJ

SimplyAmorous said:


> Can someone explain this disagreement ?


Dang, AFEH is smooth!

If he was having a diagreement/conflic with me, I did'nt even know it! :scratchhead: 

I thought we were just having a conversation?

I'm fine, you good AFEH?


----------



## Trenton

RDJ said:


> I don't think I know how to answer this. (not the sharpest pencil in the box)
> 
> I will try to express something about my "leadership".
> 
> I do not dictate, I do not opress, I do not ask my wife to submit to me as a man.
> 
> I ask my wife to submit to the greater good of our marriage. A big key being that I do the same for her.
> 
> As I, my wife has the freedom to speak her mind, to express what she needs without my being judgemental, insecure, angry, or any other BS behavior.
> 
> It's not just about me any more than it's just about her, It's about us. Again, the greater good of our marriage.
> 
> Do I take the lead? More often than not, not because I am the "man", I am simply less swayed by emotion.
> 
> If my leadership comes from the greater good of our marriage, is it really that bad?
> 
> I appreciate your challenging my thoughts. Through challenge comes growth.


The question essentially is whether or not you value logic more than emotion.

And if you do value one more than the other, why.


----------



## RDJ

Trenton said:


> The question essentially is whether or not you value logic more than emotion.
> 
> And if you do value one more than the other, why.


Hmmm! I wonder why I feel like no matter how I answer this: Im stepping in it? 

I value balance. Is that logical?


----------



## AFEH

RDJ said:


> Dang, AFEH is smooth!
> 
> If he was having a diagreement/conflic with me, I did'nt even know it! :scratchhead:
> 
> I thought we were just having a conversation?
> 
> I'm fine, you good AFEH?


At the moment we’re in very big disagreement, well at least I am lol.

For me it doesn’t get much bigger in disagreement to say I think you are managing and controlling, not leading, inspiring and motivating! 

Btw I think you took that latter as “playing games”, say with the sex toys or whatever when you say _“I "hear" my wife. I do not play games though” _in a previous post. I was serious. Play with your wife, make work FUN. Why on earth don’t you play games with her?


But I can see no way forward. Mostly you’re getting positive posts and here I am marching to my own drum. You are perfectly happy with how the situation is between you and your wife and the management and control (sorry I couldn’t resist it) initiative and strategy you developed and are implementing and as you constantly point out everything is huncky dory, A OK!!!


----------



## RDJ

AFEH said:


> At the moment we’re in very big disagreement, well at least I am lol.
> 
> For me it doesn’t get much bigger in disagreement to say I think you are managing and controlling, not leading, inspiring and motivating!
> 
> Btw I think you took that latter as “playing games”, say with the sex toys or whatever when you say _“I "hear" my wife. I do not play games though” _in a previous post. I was serious. Play with your wife, make work FUN. Why on earth don’t you play games with her?
> 
> 
> But I can see no way forward. Mostly you’re getting positive posts and here I am marching to my own drum. You are perfectly happy with how the situation is between you and your wife and the management and control (sorry I couldn’t resist it) initiative and strategy you developed and are implementing and as you constantly point out everything is huncky dory, A OK!!!


Ah yes. I understand your perspective. If you don't mind?

Are you not basing your thought on what little I have written here, one instance?

You assume that I am one dimensional? Play? Yes, plenty.

Play manipulating, sh!t testing games, and immature child like behavior?

Nope! Wast of time and energy. Does not lead to mutual happiness.

Again, thanks for your insight. Helps me grow!


----------



## AFEH

RDJ said:


> Hmmm! I wonder why I feel like no matter how I answer this: Im stepping in it?
> 
> I value balance. Is that logical?


Trenton talks of two types of intelligences. You know one, you don't know the other and therefore you don't value it. Your wife has the latter intelligence predominating, you most definitely the former.


You and your wife have two totally different analysing and decision making processes, intelligences. And you so clearly don't know it!

You make your decisions based on what you Think about something, your wife based on what she Feels about something. The really big problem is you do not value her decision making process and therefore she will not feel valued by you. That may be one of the reasons why she shet tests you when doing the finances.


----------



## RDJ

AFEH said:


> Trenton talks of two types of intelligences. You know one, you don't know the other and therefore you don't value it. Your wife has the latter intelligence predominating, you most definitely the former.
> 
> 
> You and your wife have two totally different analysing and decision making processes, intelligences. And you so clearly don't know it!
> 
> You make your decisions based on what you Think about something, your wife based on what she Feels about something. The really big problem is you do not value her decision making process and therefore she will not feel valued by you. That may be one of the reasons why she shet tests you when doing the finances.


I believe that you are assuming quite a bit here. Understand that based on you experience here.

Let me ask you something. Not being a smart a$$ here, Is it control when you offer choice?


----------



## AFEH

RDJ said:


> I believe that you are assuming quite a bit here. Understand that based on you experience here.
> 
> Let me ask you something. Not being a smart a$$ here, Is it control when you offer choice?


Yes it is very controlling. Not inspiring or motivational at all. 
Which colour do you want? Black or white?


I'm being a bit surprised here. Do you really try and exercise that amount of control over your wife? It's this sort of thing that I picked out of your "few words" (I couldn't believe them, but then others supported you). It's management with a stick, it's not leadership with a carrot.


----------



## AFEH

RDJ said:


> *I believe that you are assuming quite a bit here. Understand that based on you experience here.*
> 
> Let me ask you something. Not being a smart a$$ here, Is it control when you offer choice?


You didn’t understand Trenton’s question. That spoke volumes!


----------



## RDJ

AFEH said:


> Yes it is very controlling. Not inspiring or motivational at all.
> Which colour do you want? Black or white?
> 
> 
> I'm being a bit surprised here. Do you really try and exercise that amount of control over your wife? It's this sort of thing that I picked out of your "few words" (I couldn't believe them, but then others supported you). It's management with a stick, it's not leadership with a carrot.


Point taken.

Yet not the same as "You can choose to be in a sh!t mood, or you can let it go and enjoy our time togather doing _____"?

Is that stick or carrot?

Believe it or not, I know the difference. Question is, does my wife?

She is not exactly shy. Has no problem telling me I'm wrong. I have no problem "hearing" it? I assume she knows the difference as well?


----------



## AFEH

You ask questions that contain the answers. I’ll let it be RDJ.


----------



## RDJ

AFEH said:


> You ask questions that contain the answers. I’ll let it be RDJ.



As for Trentons question. I understood it. I said I did not know how to answer it. (not the sharpest pencil), but know when I'm in a no win situation?

Been a pleasure speaking with you Sir!


----------



## sisters359

There is nothing inherent in being male that fits someone to be "the leader." Any assertion otherwise is simply sexism and is founded on an assumption--never, ever proven by science--that men are somehow superior to women. 

Imagine that you read the same thing, but in a slightly different context: Whites are "more fit" to lead than blacks. Anglos are "more fit" to lead than Asians. Etc., etc., etc.

Science has proven, again and again, that all essentialist assumptions (like racism and sexism) have zero scientific evidence to support them. I for the life of me cannot understand how men who claim to be more logical will insist that men are "more fit" than women, when history and science together prove them wrong. Willfully clinging to such notions in the hope that science will someday prove them right makes about as much sense for sexists as it did for slave owners. 

And posting in the "Men's Room" seems to say you don't actually want to hear a diversity of opinions or expose your ideas to rigorous scrutiny. Why not?


----------



## RDJ

sisters359 said:


> There is nothing inherent in being male that fits someone to be "the leader." Any assertion otherwise is simply sexism and is founded on an assumption--never, ever proven by science--that men are somehow superior to women.
> 
> Imagine that you read the same thing, but in a slightly different context: Whites are "more fit" to lead than blacks. Anglos are "more fit" to lead than Asians. Etc., etc., etc.
> 
> Science has proven, again and again, that all essentialist assumptions (like racism and sexism) have zero scientific evidence to support them. I for the life of me cannot understand how men who claim to be more logical will insist that men are "more fit" than women, when history and science together prove them wrong. Willfully clinging to such notions in the hope that science will someday prove them right makes about as much sense for sexists as it did for slave owners.
> 
> And posting in the "Men's Room" seems to say you don't actually want to hear a diversity of opinions or expose your ideas to rigorous scrutiny. Why not?


I'm not about "male dominance", I am not better than a female. I have no problem with scrutiny.

May I ask again?

If I lead from a position of the greater good of OUR marriage, is that really a bad thing?

Some will undersatnd my view, some will not.

My wife is very emotional. She will allow herself to be in a negative mood every single night that she comes home from work. If I do not take the lead to inspire or direct, or control, or whatever we wish to call it. If I allow myself to go to the negative with her, mutual happiness would not be achievable.

I "lead" for the better of our marriage.

For those who can benifit from this, great!

For those who do not need it, thats great too.

Clearly this is a touchy subject. But hey, all the more reason to have it?


----------



## FirstYearDown

Mavash. said:


> I've finally given up control (mostly - LOL) and my husband does these things for me. Am I capable of fixing my own car and paying my own bills? Yes absolutely. But there is something so beautiful in letting my husband care for me without trying to change me in the process.
> 
> If I want to do something he lets me but lets me know he's more than willing to shoulder the burden for me. He lets me decide how much help I want from him and I'm free. A good leader recognizes the abilities of those they lead and that's what my husband does. He won't force himself on me instead he quietly stands at my side patiently waiting for me to let him take care of me. The choice is mine and I like that.


:iagree: I love the way my husband does not try to control my choices while he is doing things to make life easier for me. Despite the fact that he is the breadwinner, I always feel as though I have an equal say in our marriage. This makes it easier for me to trust my husband to make good decisions for us.


----------



## Mavash.

I make NO money and I have equal say in our marriage. We are partners and yes I trust him to make good decisions for us.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

RDJ said:


> Some will undersatnd my view, some will not.
> 
> My wife is very emotional. She will allow herself to be in a negative mood every single night that she comes home from work. If I do not take the lead to inspire or direct, or control, or whatever we wish to call it. If I allow myself to go to the negative with her, mutual happiness would not be achievable.
> 
> I "lead" for the better of our marriage.
> 
> For those who can benifit from this, great!
> 
> For those who do not need it, thats great too.


It probably won't help your popularity on this forum but I'm starting to like you more the more I hear


----------



## RDJ

Before I call it a night, I will say this.

My wife, like some of the men and women here, can be tough. I respect that. I appriciate it. If they were not, in all honesty, I would not have "heard".

I took my wife having an EA to wake me up. Not that she did not try to get through to me for years, I simply could not/would not hear.

But in my humble opinion, to change the dynamics of our bad marriage. This man took the lead!


----------



## MEM2020

RDJ,
This incident perfectly reflects your motto: conflict is inevitable, combat is optional. 

You engaged in conflict, and were clearly unwilling to participate in combat. Simple, constructive and effective. 

I read male posters here saying: "If I leave the room she just follows me raising her voice getting more aggressive and more abusive. 

Not sure how to respond to that when I read it. That would happen exactly once, and I would move out the next day. Yep. I would move out. And there would be no recon without a commit it wouldn't happen again and if it DID SHE would be the one to move out. 

Rhymes with boundaries.....

Oh - and in reverse - same thing would happen - except after the first round she would be packing my bags. What the heck is wrong with people?





RDJ said:


> "*Believe me you do change your wife’s behaviour. You do change your wife’s moods and you do change her emotions. And you obviously don’t even know it*!"
> 
> I do realise that I can change my wifes behavior, moods, and emotions. Just as she can change mine.
> 
> I do so intentionally. As I said, I do so for the greater good of us both and I try to do so by giving (as stated above) choice!
> 
> I try to lead her to change herself if that makes sense?
> 
> As for my example with the bills. She had a choice, should she have decided to stay pissy. That would be fine with me, her choice.
> 
> I would have finished my job. Gotten up and expressed that I would be in my office if she decided to change her attitude and wanted to enjoy the night. Otherwise I would leave her on her own and see her the next day.
> 
> She is free to her moods, but when they affect us in a negative way, she is free to have them on her own.
> 
> Again, I ask nothing less in return. She is free to express the same to me when I am negative.
> 
> Makes sense to me??


----------



## AFEH

RDJ said:


> I'm not about "male dominance", I am not better than a female. I have no problem with scrutiny.
> 
> May I ask again?
> 
> If I lead from a position of the greater good of OUR marriage, is that really a bad thing?
> 
> Some will undersatnd my view, some will not.
> 
> *My wife is very emotional. She will allow herself to be in a negative mood every single night that she comes home from work.* If I do not take the lead to inspire or direct, or control, or whatever we wish to call it. If I allow myself to go to the negative with her, mutual happiness would not be achievable.
> 
> I "lead" for the better of our marriage.
> 
> For those who can benifit from this, great!
> 
> For those who do not need it, thats great too.
> 
> Clearly this is a touchy subject. But hey, all the more reason to have it?


You have a massive red flag right there in front of you. A wife who does not like getting home from work. From what you write, my intuition tells me that’s because as a Thinker who does not value emotions you invalidate her Feelings. And because you invalidate her Feelings she Feels invisible to you. It’s not good RDJ. Not good. I reckon you need MC to get an outside perspective on the dynamics between the two of you.


----------



## AFEH

RDJ. I think and feel that your style of communication, confrontation and conflict probably drives your wife mad. You are ok with people who agree with you, but you have a rather unique and complex way of stonewalling those that don’t. Stonewalling can lead to the death of a marriage.


----------



## AFEH

I think you have multiple red flags in your marriage. (1) A wife who doesn’t see her home as her sanctuary, it’s a place she sees that she fights. (2) A husband that stonewalls in very complicated ways such that his wife can’t make herself heard and feels invisible and of no value to him. Her response is to keep on poking him, shet testing him to make herself feel visible and alive. (3) A husband who thinks he doesn’t affect how his wife feels, that her emotions are nothing to do with him and that her behaviour has nothing to do with him. (4) A wife who’s proven herself more than capable of going outside her marriage to get her emotional needs met. (5) A husband that doesn’t believe he should play with his wife (girls just want to have fun RDJ. Find the girl in her, make that girl laugh). (6) A husband who is controlling. (7) A husband who thinks and tries to get his wife to suppress her emotions just as he suppresses his emotions (she’s in the caring industry RDJ. She’ll be big on Feeling).


----------



## AFEH

The Sixteen Personality Types - High-Level.

Your wife will have an F in her acronym, you a T. And I’d guess you’ll have a J in yours, your wife a P. You’re probably Introverted and your wife Extroverted but I’m not sure. I could of course be totally wrong. But whatever it is, it’s different strokes for different folks.


----------



## Conrad

MEM11363 said:


> RDJ,
> This incident perfectly reflects your motto: conflict is inevitable, combat is optional.
> 
> You engaged in conflict, and were clearly unwilling to participate in combat. Simple, constructive and effective.
> 
> I read male posters here saying: "If I leave the room she just follows me raising her voice getting more aggressive and more abusive.
> 
> Not sure how to respond to that when I read it. That would happen exactly once, and I would move out the next day. Yep. I would move out. And there would be no recon without a commit it wouldn't happen again and if it DID SHE would be the one to move out.
> 
> Rhymes with boundaries.....
> 
> Oh - and in reverse - same thing would happen - except after the first round she would be packing my bags. What the heck is wrong with people?


They don't respect themselves.

Been there - done that.


----------



## RDJ

AFEH,

I appreciate everything you are saying here. You are 100% correct in the dynamics that you express.

But, you are misdiagnosing my situation.

I have a wife that hates her job, a wife that has an alcohol problem, a wife that has spent her life looking at a half empty glass in place of a half full one.

I am very aware of my wife’s feelings and how she processes through emotions, while I process through logic. I have written many posts and given the same advice to more men than I can keep track of.

She comes home every night in a bad mood. I spend the first hour or more hearing, validating, and supporting her “feelings”. I play, I create, I invite, and I work very hard at leading her towards seeing the positives in life and marriage.

I do not control, but I take control. As I have tried to express, I have to.

My wife and I have been with each other for over 33 years. We are not old, just 53. To say that we have endured everything a marriage can possibly experience would be an understatement.

I have been everything you speak of in the past, and worse.

A few years back, my wife had an EA, it woke me up. I read, I learned, I listened, and I changed. Those changes I made, inspired my wife to change as well, all but the basic dynamics of her emotional tendencies to be negative.

I learned to lead. The first step to creating a new marriage and new me was to stop reacting to her negative with negative of my own and to stop the arguing, the fighting, and my ability to keep my own emotions in check.

My wife’s initial reaction to this was as MEM and Simply Amorous described. She just got angrier and felt that I was doing things out of spite. It got much uglier before it got better. I held my ground. I would let her have her sh!t fits, I would only respond when she could come to me right. When she did, I would, in a calm and adult way, listen, validate, and find the best solution to create mutual happiness.

I took a long time, patience, and consistency. But I will say that my wife and I have not had a fight/argument in over a year now. Yes, we disagree. We have moments like I expressed in my example.

We have the nightly routine where I have to “lead” her to a positive state of mind.

But we are happy, we have a good marriage, and we did not throw in the towel when things got hard.

To me that is again “necessary leadership”. That is what I try to express to other men. Does it always work?

NO! But if you have to end your marriage, at least you will know that you did all you could do?


----------



## Cosmos

> RDJ: I learned to lead. The first step to creating a new marriage and new me was to stop reacting to her negative with negative of my own and to stop the arguing, the fighting, and my ability to keep my own emotions in check.
> 
> My wife’s initial reaction to this was as MEM and Simply Amorous described. She just got angrier and felt that I was doing things out of spite. I got much uglier before it got better. I held my ground. I would let her have her sh!t fits, I would only respond when she could come to me right. When she did, I would, in a calm and adult way, listen, validate, and find the best solution to create mutual happiness.


I can see where AFEH is coming from in his posts, but I can also see that this is possibly the best way of handling your relationship. There is little point in trying to combat negativity with negativity, and the best one can sometimes do is try to neutralize it by _directing_ it towards a more constructive path.

We can't change other people, but we can change our reaction to them - and in so doing it's possible to change the dynamics involved.


----------



## RDJ

Opps.

"She just got angrier and felt that I was doing things out of spite. I got much uglier before it got better."

*IT* got uglier, not I. 

I do not dispute anything AFEH is saying. I did not provide enough information, or articulate as well as I should have?

When we place words on a forum, it's easy to focus on the specifics, not the message.

I try to give a message, sometimes I don't do a good job of it?

Again, thanks for all of your replies.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

Kudos to you, RDJ, for understanding why your wife had an EA, deciding to turn a corner, and for your continued desire to grow in your role as a husband. 

I wish my H would do the same as you (as I am emotionally empty and longing for connection, which means I'm primed for an EA, although I won't have one b/c it's plain wrong.) Anyway, if I could wave a magic wand and make some changes in my H, I'd pull my spells right from your post.


----------



## Cosmos

RDJ said:


> When we place words on a forum, it's easy to focus on the specifics, not the message.
> 
> I try to give a message, sometimes I don't do a good job of it?
> 
> Again, thanks for all of your replies.



I think it's a case of perception...

Because, on occasions, I have a tendency to let my emotions deactivate my motivation, I'm glad that I have a partner who employs logic, rather than emotion, in dealing with it. Sometimes, a gentle nudge in the right direction is all it takes to get me back on track.

I think for the above reason I could immediately identify with what you were trying to get across.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

RDJ said:


> I have a wife that hates her job, a wife that has an alcohol problem, a wife that has spent her life looking at a half empty glass in place of a half full one.


RDJ,

If you don't mind my asking, did your wife grow up in an alcoholic household? If so was it her mom, dad or both that drank to excess?


----------



## RDJ

ebp123 said:


> Kudos to you, RDJ, for understanding why your wife had an EA, deciding to turn a corner, and for your continued desire to grow in your role as a husband.
> 
> I wish my H would do the same as you (as I am emotionally empty and longing for connection, which means I'm primed for an EA, although I won't have one b/c it's plain wrong.) Anyway, if I could wave a magic wand and make some changes in my H, I'd pull my spells right from your post.


Thanks for that EB.

Sad thing is that I meet 10 new guy's a week that could create the marriage that they and their wife desire.

But they just don't "get it". I know the word "lead" will upset many women. Men (like me) have abused masculine energy for ever. But leading from a place of love, understanding, and mutual trust is simply not the same thing.


----------



## FirstYearDown

When my husband calmly withdraws from a conversation, I don't dare follow him and keep being snarky. I am immediately humbled by my husband's refusal to tolerate shouting or disrespect. 

I had an ex like that. He loved to come close to my face and scream, even when I asked him repeatedly to stop following me when I was angry. This went on for TWO YEARS, until one day I thumped him in the face when he was screaming in mine. 

This idiot never got in my face again after that and I have no remorse. Speaking calmly and setting boundaries did not work. I responded to an aggressive and threatening gesture with more aggression. I don't care if that makes me abusive.


----------



## RDJ

Ten_year_hubby said:


> RDJ,
> 
> If you don't mind my asking, did your wife grow up in an alcoholic household? If so was it her mom, dad or both that drank to excess?


No, I don't mind your asking.

Controling, abusive, manipulating, drunken a$$ hole Father. And a passive, meak, afraid to death to stand up Mother.

Great dynamics to grow up in eh!

Not unlike my own parents. They just did'nt have the alcohol issues.

I understand the affects, but no one is above overcoming our pasts if we really want to.

That line will get me deeper in the hole here eh?

Whats ya thinking ?


----------



## RDJ

FirstYearDown said:


> When my husband calmly withdraws from a conversation, I don't dare follow him and keep being snarky. I am immediately humbled by my husband's refusal to tolerate shouting or disrespect.
> 
> I had an ex like that. He loved to come close to my face and scream, even when I asked him repeatedly to stop following me when I was angry. This went on for TWO YEARS, until one day I thumped him in the face when he was screaming in mine.
> 
> This idiot never got in my face again after that and I have no remorse. Speaking calmly and setting boundaries did not work. I responded to an aggressive and threatening gesture with more aggression. I don't care if that makes me abusive.


gotta do what ya gotta do!


----------



## RDJ

Want to talk about alcohol?

I don't drink, I never have, not a drop.

My wife is an alcoholic.

I took the lead there too.

I poured her alcohol down the sink. I expressed that her drinking was part of what was destroying our marriage. I expressed that alcohol was no longer allowed in our home.

She went bollistic. She ended up moving to a hotel with her bottle.

I expressed that although sad, it was her choice. I'm here if you want change.

A few weeks later she came home. I compromised, she now has a few drinks. She no longer gets drunk, she no longer goes out to bars.

She makes that choice, I lead for the better of our marriage. If she wants to return to being a drunk, she is free to do so, she just does so without me.

Simple as that!


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

RDJ said:


> Whats ya thinking ?


I'm thinking that adult children of alcoholics show learned behavior from their parents that models the parents alcoholic behavior. An acoa that actively drinks makes this behavior even worse.

Over 80% of marriages with an alcoholic female end in divorce. The stat for sober female acoa's is not much better although we have to remember that the overall divorce rate is over 40%.

7% of the us population meets the criteria for alcoholism. With equal numbers of male and female children, there are clearly a lot of women out there presenting alcoholic behavior or having a clear tendency toward alcoholism. It's really not fair to make them some kind of outcast group, not suitable for marriage, especially since they were mostly put in this situation by others, namely their parents.

It takes a special character and sense of commitment to find a way to stay with someone that society as a whole has thrown away with regards to marriage


----------



## Acorn

RDJ, you talk of how you led the marriage for a while, then you stopped, your wife tried for a good long while to tell you what was needed in the marriage, and then after failing to get through to you, had an EA. Then, you resumed leadership and things were saved.

Obviously I don't know the whole story, but what that sounds like to me is that SHE was trying to lead you, and failed due to your reluctance to follow. 

Once you did all the work, the reading, the working on yourself, and she could once again trust that you were following her, she was willing to also follow you?

I really did not get the sense that it was your leadership that saved things, but rather your realization that you needed to follow her lead as well.


----------



## FirstYearDown

My husband is a binge drinker and I have helped to lead him out of addiction. His family is plagued with alcoholism; they are Scottish WASP's who would rather drink than cry when they are very upset. 

I must say that loving leadership of each of us has made my marriage better. He helped to teach me that my way of communicating angry feelings was dysfunctional; I grew up in a high conflict home with a mother who favored loud verbal abuse. I find it sexy when my husband walks away when I am too loud or rude; he is putting me in my place and refusing to take crap. At the same time, my husband lovingly assures me that he loves me and wants the two of us to communicate effectively. He mixes criticism with compliments: "You are a very bright and articulate woman. I know you can tell me that you're angry without screaming like a toddler."

I appreciate the way my husband notices my strengths which compliment his weaknesses. I may be the emotional and high strung one, but my husband loves the way I have helped him express his feelings and appreciate bonding on a different level than any woman he has ever been with. 

RDJ, maybe your wife needs you to appreciate the gifts in the way she sees the world.


----------



## RDJ

Acorn said:


> RDJ, you talk of how you led the marriage for a while, then you stopped, your wife tried for a good long while to tell you what was needed in the marriage, and then after failing to get through to you, had an EA. Then, you resumed leadership and things were saved.
> 
> Obviously I don't know the whole story, but what that sounds like to me is that SHE was trying to lead you, and failed due to your reluctance to follow.
> 
> Once you did all the work, the reading, the working on yourself, and she could once again trust that you were following her, she was willing to also follow you?
> 
> I really did not get the sense that it was your leadership that saved things, but rather your realization that you needed to follow her lead as well.


Well said and true.

I'm reading my own writing here, and yes it certainly sounds like I have a serious control issue.

But it really is not what it appears. My wife and I are equal. I work hard at meeting her needs. I fulfill her just as she fulfills me.

Many of the things I am discussing came through the period of rebuilding, establishing boundaries, and learning the meaning of mutual happiness. For both myself and my wife.

We do not have these issues any longer.

She trusts my lead, we are open with our needs, we are mutual.

Sure, we have disagreements, we have times when I need to lead, we have times when she leads, we are not perfect. I make mistakes just as she does.

Marriage is not easy, it's takes work.


----------



## norajane

RDJ said:


> Before I call it a night, I will say this.
> 
> My wife, like some of the men and women here, can be tough. I respect that. I appriciate it. If they were not, in all honesty, I would not have "heard".
> 
> I took my wife having an EA to wake me up. Not that she did not try to get through to me for years, I simply could not/would not hear.
> 
> But in my humble opinion, to change the dynamics of our bad marriage. This man took the lead!


Make sure you continue to "hear" her instead of shutting down the thoughts and feelings she is expressing.

In your bills example, she could be pissy about doing the bills with you because she hates the way you do the bills or your attitude. You don't know why she was squirmy and pissy because you didn't ask nor did you listen to what she was expressing about the bills. 

You shut her down by creating an artificial limitation on the "choice". There were other choices besides the ones you stated. Like doing the bills at another time when she was more of a mind to do them. Or changing the process of handling the bills so you wouldn't have to go through this each time. Or finding out what was upsetting to her about the bills in the first place and addressing that. She may be trying to "get through to you" about something related to your bill paying dynamic and you didn't bother to find out what.

You have to continue hearing her, or you will end up with her turning to another man again to have her needs listened to and understood.


----------



## RDJ

norajane said:


> Make sure you continue to "hear" her instead of shutting down the thoughts and feelings she is expressing.
> 
> In your bills example, she could be pissy about doing the bills with you because she hates the way you do the bills or your attitude. You don't know why she was squirmy and pissy because you didn't ask nor did you listen to what she was expressing about the bills.
> 
> You shut her down by creating an artificial limitation on the "choice". There were other choices besides the ones you stated. Like doing the bills at another time when she was more of a mind to do them. Or changing the process of handling the bills so you wouldn't have to go through this each time. Or finding out what was upsetting to her about the bills in the first place and addressing that. She may be trying to "get through to you" about something related to your bill paying dynamic and you didn't bother to find out what.
> 
> You have to continue hearing her, or you will end up with her turning to another man again to have her needs listened to and understood.



Point humbly taken and appreciated. Thanks!


----------



## Mavash.

Ten_year_hubby said:


> I'm thinking that adult children of alcoholics show learned behavior from their parents that models the parents alcoholic behavior.


It also passes through generations where there is no drinking. My mom didn't drink but her dad did. She's an ACOA and passed on these learned behaviors to me. I don't drink either and yet had I not gotten help I would have passed this onto my kids as well.


----------



## AFEH

RDJ said:


> AFEH,
> 
> I appreciate everything you are saying here. You are 100% correct in the dynamics that you express.
> 
> But, you are misdiagnosing my situation.


Phew :scratchhead:

The dynamics I expressed came from my diagnosis of your posts. If my diagnosis is incorrect then so is my expression of the dynamics. If one is incorrect, then so is the other. One cannot be correct, the other incorrect!



You just stonewalled me but in a very clever way. And then you kind of patted me on the back, patronised me to put me to one side and get on with what you want to say.


No wonder your wife gets Really P!ssy.


----------



## AFEH

norajane said:


> Make sure you continue to "hear" her instead of shutting down the thoughts and feelings she is expressing.
> 
> In your bills example, she could be pissy about doing the bills with you because she hates the way you do the bills or your attitude. You don't know why she was squirmy and pissy because you didn't ask nor did you listen to what she was expressing about the bills.
> 
> You shut her down by creating an artificial limitation on the "choice". There were other choices besides the ones you stated. Like doing the bills at another time when she was more of a mind to do them. Or changing the process of handling the bills so you wouldn't have to go through this each time. Or finding out what was upsetting to her about the bills in the first place and addressing that. She may be trying to "get through to you" about something related to your bill paying dynamic and you didn't bother to find out what.
> 
> You have to continue hearing her, or you will end up with her turning to another man again to have her needs listened to and understood.





RDJ said:


> Point humbly taken and appreciated. Thanks!


It’s why I think you need (kind of desperately) the intervention of an MC who is an expert on communication in marriage.


----------



## sisters359

There is a huge difference between taking the high road in your relationships and connecting that to MEN needing to take the lead.

Anyone, male or female, who is in a relationship with someone who is emotionally immature and behaves like a child, will find that things get WORSE if they engage in the same way, and will find that things improve if they refuse to accept mistreatment from their partner.

The main difference is that men--who are not typically physically at risk from the anger of an immature woman--will assume this is "women's" nature. Women who cannot get men to treat them more respectfully will either move on (out of an inability to risk things getting worse), or fall prey to the craziness and get pulled in.

It isn't about being inherently "better" at leading, it is about being more willing to tolerate immaturity in a spouse and write it off as "natural." 

I don't have much respect for women who routinely defer to their husbands all the time simply because he is the man, either. Especially if children are involved. It is no more than shirking one's responsibility as a mother.

Now, when someone defers to another b/c that other person has more expertise, that's different.

The point here is that individuals may choose to defer at times for various reasons, but to suggest that the person with the penis will always be right, and more qualified to make a final decision than the person without a penis, is deluding one's self. Furthermore, the whole mentality about marriage and relationships that evolves from that assumption is the antithesis of equal rights for people regardless of sex.


----------



## RDJ

AFEH said:


> It’s why I think you need (kind of desperately) the intervention of an MC who is an expert on communication in marriage.


I humbly accept and appriciate your opinion as well.

I simply do not agree. 

Thank you for your thoughts.

But, please allow me to express one more thing. We have done MC, individual and togather. The MC, myself, my adult children, and my wife herself agree.

She tends to be "pissy" because that is who she is. She is a self admited, (tells people), stuborn, beotch. I know it, she knows it, and our friends and family know it.

She is the beotch I married, and I love her anyway.

Do you mind if you and I move forward now?


----------



## Trickster

This thread sounds like your other thread about changing yourself and change your marriage. At least It started out that way… 

IMO. You have learned how to not allow the actions, moods, and behaviors of your wife to get you down. All the self-help books you have read to help you deal with your wife has helped you and your marriage. I have read about a dozen books myself and I have learned to not react (too much)to whatever happens in my marriage. You have more skills than I have!

I hope you believe (really) believe all that you say and are not building resentments (which is what I am doing) and just not realizing it. You can be nice for so long before that bubble burst. You seem like a really good guy. I think you wife is fortunate. Your wife NEEDS your strength and support or she may blow or act pissy. You must have to walk on egg shell all the time.

What I wonder though who is controlling who. Who is the leader here? 

A leader is one who can encourage people do things and feel like they are not being told what to do. I read that somewhere. It went something like that. Many years ago, I had a boss that jumped my a$$ and it took me several hours before I figured it out. He did it so nicely I didn’t even know it. He was a leader. I wasn’t even mad that he jumped all over me. (that may not apply here)

To me is seems like you did all the changing and as long as you do the things that your wife expects you to do… Be her Dad, she is happy. I can understand… We have to save the marriage at all cost. For me I would hate to lose my best friend.

As for the drinking... I like to drink a lot myself. I learned it from my mother .... I also knoow when I do drink, I do so to try to the attention of my wife... It doesn't work... Is there an EA soon for me? I can choose to drink or not to drink. It is not that hard. If my wife did all that I wanted her to do, I wouldn't have to finish the whole darn bottle of wine! For now, I choose to not drink (not get drunk) She's not gonna change.

IMO you wife used alcohol and the EA to get her way. My wife didn't fall for that and it really pi$$ed me off.

Either way, you have found a way to make your marriage work. I think that is great!


----------



## Trenton

RDJ said:


> Hmmm! I wonder why I feel like no matter how I answer this: Im stepping in it?
> 
> I value balance. Is that logical?


I know it sounds like a loaded question but maybe seeing it that way and being unable to answer it honestly tells you something.

You don't value negative emotion and that is subjective but you most likely value your subjective idea of positive emotion.

Since logic and reasoning is, well, logical and reasonable, there is less room for like and dislike. It is less subjective.

Does that equate to the more logical and reasonable person in the relationship is the best suited to lead? (Only if you believe there needs to be a leader of course)

Best relationships that I have known come about when two secure people who trust one another know when to take the lead and when not to take the lead and it has a lot less to do with which one has the penis and more to do with the hard work and value they place on their relationship together and how well they know one another.


----------



## RDJ

I would find it hard to believe that all of us don't use one form or another to control, manipulate, inspire, lead (whatever word you choose) to get what we desire.

The least we could do is set the goal for MUTUAL happiness?


----------



## Trenton

RDJ said:


> I humbly accept and appriciate your opinion as well.
> 
> I simply do not agree.
> 
> Thank you for your thoughts.
> 
> But, please allow me to express one more thing. We have done MC, individual and togather. The MC, myself, my adult children, and my wife herself agree.
> 
> She tends to be "pissy" because that is who she is. She is a self admited, (tells people), stuborn, beotch. I know it, she knows it, and our friends and family know it.
> 
> She is the beotch I married, and I love her anyway.
> 
> Do you mind if you and I move forward now?


Maybe you found out why you deleted it the first time around? :rofl:

That, Bob, he always thinks he's right and is so judgmental.


----------



## norajane

RDJ said:


> I would find it hard to believe that all of us don't use one form or another to control, manipulate, inspire, lead (*whatever word you choose*) to get what we desire.
> 
> The least we could do is set the goal for MUTUAL happiness?


I'll give you some other words: discuss, understand, collaborate, cooperate, resolve. And an even more important word: GIVE.

No, it doesn't have to be all about manipulation and control, leaders and followers. Mutual happiness is inspired by both people choosing to give to each other. In healthy relationships, it's not about using tactics to get what you want. It's about wanting to give to your spouse so they are happy. In a healthy relationship, you get what you _give_.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

norajane said:


> Mutual happiness is inspired by both people choosing to give to each other. In healthy relationships, it's not about using tactics to get what you want. It's about wanting to give to your spouse so they are happy. In a healthy relationship, you get what you _give_.


Nice work when you can get it. Not to be argumentative but what about when one partner only wants to take or their self giving is somehow impaired or diminished. Does that mean their partner can't be happy? I hope not. Does that make the non (under) giver unhappy? Maybe, but I'm really not seeing a lot of that. Many people get hugely more than they give.


----------



## RDJ

Trenton said:


> I know it sounds like a loaded question but maybe seeing it that way and being unable to answer it honestly tells you something.
> 
> You don't value negative emotion and that is subjective but you most likely value your subjective idea of positive emotion.
> 
> Since logic and reasoning is, well, logical and reasonable, there is less room for like and dislike. It is less subjective.
> 
> Does that equate to the more logical and reasonable person in the relationship is the best suited to lead? (Only if you believe there needs to be a leader of course)
> 
> Best relationships that I have known come about when two secure people who trust one another know when to take the lead and when not to take the lead and it has a lot less to do with which one has the penis and more to do with the hard work and value they place on their relationship together and how well they know one another.


That was nice Trenton, emotional and logical.

I try to live this way, not always easy. As it does take two.

I try to establish my values and live by them. Thats really the best a person can do.

Thanks for your reply


----------



## norajane

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Nice work when you can get it. Not to be argumentative but what about when one partner only wants to take or their self giving is somehow impaired or diminished. Does that mean their partner can't be happy? I hope not. Does that make the non (under) giver unhappy? Maybe, but I'm really not seeing a lot of that. Many people get hugely more than they give.


I used the qualifier "healthy relationships". I don't see a relationship where one only takes, or when one gives way more than the other, as being healthy.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

norajane said:


> I used the qualifier "healthy relationships". I don't see a relationship where one only takes, or when one gives way more than the other, as being healthy.


Me neither. But for any number of reasons one doesn't always know what they're getting themselves into when one says "I do". I am of the opinion that mostly all marriages suffer from some kind of imbalance where one of the partners has more "relationship savvy" than the other. I consider it the responsibility of the partner with the greater relationship skills to "lead" the relationship rather than sinking to the level of their deficit partner. 

Being a man, I encourage the men I meet and interact with to become the more skilled partner, set the standard in their marriages and lead their relationship. I encourage all men to love when their partner is unloving, respect when their partner is disrespectful and give when their partner doesn't give. This is my definition of leadership. 

I''m not blind and I can't help but notice that an lot of men are not on that program these days. If women are OK with that and they want to be the leaders in their marriages and make up for the gap in what their partner is willing to give, I'm happy for them and their families will benefit. But I think that finding the truly equivalent relationship where both partners are giving at the same level to each other's mutual satisfaction can be difficult indeed for a lot of people.


----------



## RDJ

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Me neither. But for any number of reasons one doesn't always know what they're getting themselves into when one says "I do". I am of the opinion that mostly all marriages suffer from some kind of imbalance where one of the partners has more "relationship savvy" than the other. I consider it the responsibility of the partner with the greater relationship skills to "lead" the relationship rather than sinking to the level of their deficit partner.
> 
> Being a man, I encourage the men I meet and interact with to become the more skilled partner, set the standard in their marriages and lead their relationship.
> 
> But I''m not blind and I can't help but notice that an awful lot of men are falling down on the job these days


Ditto!

You know you just threw yourself in front of a train, right?


----------



## Mavash.

RDJ said:


> I would find it hard to believe that all of us don't use one form or another to control, manipulate, inspire, lead (whatever word you choose) to get what we desire.
> 
> The least we could do is set the goal for MUTUAL happiness?


Amen. I fully admit to manipulating my husband to get a better marriage. My disclaimer is I mean him no harm. In fact I want nothing but happiness for both of us. I think win/win and if that means using some relationship strategies to accomplish that then I think so be it.


----------



## AFEH

Trenton said:


> Maybe you found out why you deleted it the first time around? :rofl:
> 
> That, Bob, he always thinks he's right and is so judgmental.


:sleeping:


----------



## FirstYearDown

RDJ said:


> I would find it hard to believe that all of us don't use one form or another to control, manipulate, inspire, lead (whatever word you choose) to get what we desire.
> 
> The least we could do is set the goal for MUTUAL happiness?


Leading is NOT the same as manipulating or controlling. Looks like you don't really know the difference; you have proved the points that Trenton and AFEH were trying to make. 

I also see some rationalization of controlling behaviour with "everyone does this, so it is okay."


----------



## RDJ

With all due respect, I disagree. I “get” the whole woman’s feelings concept. Please go back and read my OP.

I know very well that I have to be aware of her feelings and that I use logic over feelings. I also know very well that far too many women use this poor little princess me, and my *feelings *to “manipulate, abuse, and an excuse to be a b!tch”.

I understand that just because I have a penis does not make me a leader. I also understand that just because a woman has a vagina, she does not necessarily have decent “feelings”. 

Sometimes we just need to call a spade a spade. Sometimes when we spend allot of time giving advice, we overanalyze and see problems that may or may not be there. We pick apart every little word and not the message. Sometimes we tend to overlook that plenty of women, just like men, are just simply jerks for no reason at all?

I will ask yet once again? Is leadership from a place of love, for the good of mutual happiness, and based on values really such a bad thing???


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

RDJ said:


> I will ask yet once again? Is leadership from a place of love, for the good of mutual happiness, and based on values really such a bad thing???


Leadership is fine. No one has to be perfect to be eligible. Help would be nice but it's not required. I am always hopeful and looking to see evidence of leadership in action.


----------



## RDJ

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Leadership is fine. No one has to be perfect to be eligible. Help would be nice but it's not required. I am always hopeful and looking to see evidence of leadership in action.


Certainly just my opinion. Again, with all due respect. (and not all about FYD comments)

Evidence?

You have the strenght to stand up for what you believe, you call what you believe, a spade a spade.

The room goes quiet? Your "leading".


----------



## MEM2020

Ten,
I believe it is VERY hard to get a partner to give "more" than they want. You can do it - but often it is by expending many, many times the effort that you get back. I do however believe that you can/should/must manage the amount of overt negative energy/behaviors your partner sends your way. 

I can't make someone spend more time cleaning the house. I can refuse to let my partner yell/curse at or say hateful things to me. 



UOTE=Ten_year_hubby;992380]Me neither. But for any number of reasons one doesn't always know what they're getting themselves into when one says "I do". I am of the opinion that mostly all marriages suffer from some kind of imbalance where one of the partners has more "relationship savvy" than the other. I consider it the responsibility of the partner with the greater relationship skills to "lead" the relationship rather than sinking to the level of their deficit partner. 

Being a man, I encourage the men I meet and interact with to become the more skilled partner, set the standard in their marriages and lead their relationship. I encourage all men to love when their partner is unloving, respect when their partner is disrespectful and give when their partner doesn't give. This is my definition of leadership. 

I''m not blind and I can't help but notice that an lot of men are not on that program these days. If women are OK with that and they want to be the leaders in their marriages and make up for the gap in what their partner is willing to give, I'm happy for them and their families will benefit. But I think that finding the truly equivalent relationship where both partners are giving at the same level to each other's mutual satisfaction can be difficult indeed for a lot of people.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## La Rose Noire

I prefer that the man leads the relationship. I love following my man's lead and yes, I do worry less because of it. I prefer to embrace supportive and nurturing roles. 

But believe me if there's a noise in the car he will fix it himself before I even say anything about it, lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## RDJ

MEM11363 said:


> Ten,
> I believe it is VERY hard to get a partner to give "more" than they want. You can do it - but often it is by expending many, many times the effort that you get back. I do however believe that you can/should/must manage the amount of overt negative energy/behaviors your partner sends your way.
> 
> I can't make someone spend more time cleaning the house. I can refuse to let my partner yell/curse at or say hateful things to me.
> 
> 
> 
> UOTE=Ten_year_hubby;992380]Me neither. But for any number of reasons one doesn't always know what they're getting themselves into when one says "I do". I am of the opinion that mostly all marriages suffer from some kind of imbalance where one of the partners has more "relationship savvy" than the other. I consider it the responsibility of the partner with the greater relationship skills to "lead" the relationship rather than sinking to the level of their deficit partner.
> 
> Being a man, I encourage the men I meet and interact with to become the more skilled partner, set the standard in their marriages and lead their relationship. I encourage all men to love when their partner is unloving, respect when their partner is disrespectful and give when their partner doesn't give. This is my definition of leadership.
> 
> I''m not blind and I can't help but notice that an lot of men are not on that program these days. If women are OK with that and they want to be the leaders in their marriages and make up for the gap in what their partner is willing to give, I'm happy for them and their families will benefit. But I think that finding the truly equivalent relationship where both partners are giving at the same level to each other's mutual satisfaction can be difficult indeed for a lot of people.



The right balance between meeting needs, expressing needs, subtle confrontation, and not fearing risking it all.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

RDJ seems to be an example to uphold here, whether some of us agree or not with his methods....as his wife sounds a highly difficult overly emotional self confessed Beotch -once Alchy to share a life with.... (God help the man)... But he continues to LOVE her and doesn't sound resentful somehow. 

Personally I think that is rather amazing!!! I know he missed it too earlier in the marriage though, so in some way, they are both very forgiving of each other, some form of "fairness" about Sticking beside each other. 

How many of us could have pulled this off ....kept the marriage together through so very very much?


----------



## MEM2020

RDJ,
Do you really have a nightly job of having to manage your wife's negative emotions?
Is she chronically angry about having to work that particular job, or having to work a full time job?






RDJ said:


> The right balance between meeting needs, expressing needs, subtle confrontation, and not fearing risking it all.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Trenton

RDJ said:


> That was nice Trenton, emotional and logical.
> 
> I try to live this way, not always easy. As it does take two.
> 
> I try to establish my values and live by them. Thats really the best a person can do.
> 
> Thanks for your reply


I think you are carrying too much. As your story quietly unravels through your posts and your repertoire is revealed, it's obvious that you're dealing with more than your wise posts would let on. To lead is your only choice but I'm not sure that makes it a wise choice or a partnership.


----------



## Trickster

SimplyAmorous said:


> RDJ seems to be an example to uphold here, whether some of us agree or not with his methods....as his wife sounds a highly difficult overly emotional self confessed Beotch -once Alchy to share a life with.... (God help the man)... But he continues to LOVE her and doesn't sound resentful somehow.
> 
> Personally I think that is rather amazing!!! I know he missed it too earlier in the marriage though, so in some way, they are both very forgiving of each other, some form of "fairness" about Sticking beside each other.
> 
> How many of us could have pulled this off ....kept the marriage together through so very very much?


I am not sure I believe all the OP is saying...As to how he is feeling. I do believe we can choose how we react to the behaviors of other people and pretend like it doesn't bother use. Not many of us mortals have the ability to do that for an extended period of time without building resentments. We just may not realize it.

Married couples do feed off of each others energy and RDJ "seems" to not feed on negative energies from his wife. If he stays calm in all situations and not react and magnify her issues, all is well.

We can keep the marriage together for so long. No marriage is perfect. RDJ seems like he is taking the high road. Maybe he has read alot of Deepak's books.


----------



## RDJ

Not to ignore, I'll be happy to reply to your thoughts next week.

I'm on a week end trip with the wife. We do still have fun, date, and keep life interesting.

She can be a beotch at times, after a long shift for sure,who of us can not?

I will admit that continuasly leading her from negative can be a bit of a pain. I guess I feel like my family, our life, and our 33 years of marriage, is a commitment.

80% good, 20% less than great. Perect? No,but thats life, I accept it?

Thanks for all your replies, I really do appriciate them.


----------



## RDJ

I found that I kept falling into a loop of the Fix-it mentality. I refer to this as a loop because it tends to become a pattern that repeats itself over and over without much being accomplished. My wife and I kept going around, and around, and around. A typical loop looks something like this:
One spouse or the other feels that something is not right in the marriage. They think about it for a while and decided that the problem is “X”. X could be anything from not enough communication, to not enough sex. Once the spouse has decided what the problem is, they go into fix-it mode. They focus their attention and energy on resolving this one issue that they feel is the cause of the problems in the marriage. The first step is usually to approach the other partner and tell them that X is a problem and they must resolve it. 
Almost invariably, the other partner is caught completely off guard by this. They never thought that X was a problem. When people are suddenly confronted with a demand to change, they tend to get defensive. This is how most arguments in a marriage are started. One spouse has decided that the other spouse needs to change in some way, and they confront them about it.
From here, any number of things can happen. Perhaps the couple will agree on some way to deal with X. perhaps they will fight about it for months or even years. Even if this particular issue does get resolved in some way it will probably not be the silver bullet solution that was expected. X is resolved, but the marriage still feels off. This prompts a further round of analysis until some other issue (Y) is uncovered. Now Y becomes the new focal point, and the loop starts again.
This is the essential nature of a find-and –fix loop; you find a perceived problem, you pile your hopes for the marriage on fixing this problem, fight until you get the resolution that you wanted, or you may even just eventually give up, settle down, and have the same issue a few weeks, months, or years later. It’s not uncommon to end up with X, Y, and Z in the loop. Clearly the problem, or marriage, never really gets better. Repeat as required until every possible problem has been beat to death, or fixed (unlikely). More likely the marriage just becomes seriously strained by all of the confrontations and fighting.
I am sure that by now you can tell that I am not a fan of this approach to resolving marriage issues. If fact, I see several problems with it.
The first major problem is that the fix-it mentality tends to involve having many arguments and heavy discussions about the need for a spouse or the relationship to change. This makes the relationship very tense. The first few times that you point out ways for your spouse to change they will probably be quite responsive. They want the marriage to be happy. However, when it becomes a common occurrence for one spouse or the other to initiate a heavy conversation about the state of the marriage every other week then things go downhill fast. He starts saying that she is never happy. She starts saying that he never changes, or visa versa.
The fix-it approach is geared for conflict. It is an inherently confrontational approach. You are effectively telling the other person that they are not good enough, or are not doing well enough and that is going to cause tension.
Thus, the first major flaw of the fix-it mentality is that it creates an atmosphere and judging in the relationship. The other major side effect is that it can create a mindset of constantly analyzing the relationship, looking for flaws to focus on for the next fix-it loop. We become relationship perfectionists. We have an ideal that we want our marriage to live up to and we will not be happy until we can find nothing wrong with it.
We can find ourselves analyzing every comment and emotion that our spouse exhibits. Everything that they say can be taken as a personal attack. Everything that they do is assessed against our expectations to see if it must be “fixed” or not. We no longer give the freedom to simply have a bad day now and then. A spouse is not allowed to be stressed, or too tired to do what was expected. Every time they say no to sex, or ask to have some time of their own it is taken as some form of rejection. It gets chalked up as something that needs to be fixed.
By now, it should be clear that the fix-it mentality does more harm than good. It creates many “heavy conversations” that are totally unnecessary. No relationship will ever be perfect. Attempting to mold your marriage into the perfect relationship, or mold your spouse into the perfect partner, will only lead to frustration and resentment for both of you.
If you recognize this fix-it mentality in yourself, then remember this; your spouse is a human being. They have free will. They have their own perceptions of the world and the marriage. They have personal issues, pressures, and insecurity in their lives too. When your spouse is in a bad mood… tired… angry…stressed… or “Not in the mood” it may have nothing to do with you.
You should also consider that your spouse may have their own fix-it list for you. You may feel that you are already doing everything that is reasonable to make the marriage work. They may feel otherwise.
Do not allow yourself to get caught in the tunnel vision of the fix-it mentality. Don’t take everything personally. Don’t buy into the idea that there are easy fixes for your marriage problems and they mostly involve your spouse doing more to meet your needs.
We should always try to keep our marriage first. This requires that we step away from what our personal agenda for the relationship is sometimes and take a holistic approach to things. There are times that we need to be understanding of the fact that we are all human. There are times when we simply need to “let things go”, let ourselves and our partner be human and have flaws that we don’t pick apart. We have to stay focused on the creating positives in place of negatives.
Sometimes there are issues in a relationship that really do need to be resolved. However, beware of buying into the idea that you must have full compliance to all of your marriage “requirements” in order to be happy. Sometimes you just need to back off and give your spouse some space until they are ready to engage you on a positive level again?


----------



## MEM2020

I have a low tolerance for overtly bad behavior and a high tolerance for the absence of positive behavior. 

Trying to pressure someone into being more loving to you is way more aggravation than it is worth. 




RDJ said:


> I found that I kept falling into a loop of the Fix-it mentality. I refer to this as a loop because it tends to become a pattern that repeats itself over and over without much being accomplished. My wife and I kept going around, and around, and around. A typical loop looks something like this:
> One spouse or the other feels that something is not right in the marriage. They think about it for a while and decided that the problem is “X”. X could be anything from not enough communication, to not enough sex. Once the spouse has decided what the problem is, they go into fix-it mode. They focus their attention and energy on resolving this one issue that they feel is the cause of the problems in the marriage. The first step is usually to approach the other partner and tell them that X is a problem and they must resolve it.
> Almost invariably, the other partner is caught completely off guard by this. They never thought that X was a problem. When people are suddenly confronted with a demand to change, they tend to get defensive. This is how most arguments in a marriage are started. One spouse has decided that the other spouse needs to change in some way, and they confront them about it.
> From here, any number of things can happen. Perhaps the couple will agree on some way to deal with X. perhaps they will fight about it for months or even years. Even if this particular issue does get resolved in some way it will probably not be the silver bullet solution that was expected. X is resolved, but the marriage still feels off. This prompts a further round of analysis until some other issue (Y) is uncovered. Now Y becomes the new focal point, and the loop starts again.
> This is the essential nature of a find-and –fix loop; you find a perceived problem, you pile your hopes for the marriage on fixing this problem, fight until you get the resolution that you wanted, or you may even just eventually give up, settle down, and have the same issue a few weeks, months, or years later. It’s not uncommon to end up with X, Y, and Z in the loop. Clearly the problem, or marriage, never really gets better. Repeat as required until every possible problem has been beat to death, or fixed (unlikely). More likely the marriage just becomes seriously strained by all of the confrontations and fighting.
> I am sure that by now you can tell that I am not a fan of this approach to resolving marriage issues. If fact, I see several problems with it.
> The first major problem is that the fix-it mentality tends to involve having many arguments and heavy discussions about the need for a spouse or the relationship to change. This makes the relationship very tense. The first few times that you point out ways for your spouse to change they will probably be quite responsive. They want the marriage to be happy. However, when it becomes a common occurrence for one spouse or the other to initiate a heavy conversation about the state of the marriage every other week then things go downhill fast. He starts saying that she is never happy. She starts saying that he never changes, or visa versa.
> The fix-it approach is geared for conflict. It is an inherently confrontational approach. You are effectively telling the other person that they are not good enough, or are not doing well enough and that is going to cause tension.
> Thus, the first major flaw of the fix-it mentality is that it creates an atmosphere and judging in the relationship. The other major side effect is that it can create a mindset of constantly analyzing the relationship, looking for flaws to focus on for the next fix-it loop. We become relationship perfectionists. We have an ideal that we want our marriage to live up to and we will not be happy until we can find nothing wrong with it.
> We can find ourselves analyzing every comment and emotion that our spouse exhibits. Everything that they say can be taken as a personal attack. Everything that they do is assessed against our expectations to see if it must be “fixed” or not. We no longer give the freedom to simply have a bad day now and then. A spouse is not allowed to be stressed, or too tired to do what was expected. Every time they say no to sex, or ask to have some time of their own it is taken as some form of rejection. It gets chalked up as something that needs to be fixed.
> By now, it should be clear that the fix-it mentality does more harm than good. It creates many “heavy conversations” that are totally unnecessary. No relationship will ever be perfect. Attempting to mold your marriage into the perfect relationship, or mold your spouse into the perfect partner, will only lead to frustration and resentment for both of you.
> If you recognize this fix-it mentality in yourself, then remember this; your spouse is a human being. They have free will. They have their own perceptions of the world and the marriage. They have personal issues, pressures, and insecurity in their lives too. When your spouse is in a bad mood… tired… angry…stressed… or “Not in the mood” it may have nothing to do with you.
> You should also consider that your spouse may have their own fix-it list for you. You may feel that you are already doing everything that is reasonable to make the marriage work. They may feel otherwise.
> Do not allow yourself to get caught in the tunnel vision of the fix-it mentality. Don’t take everything personally. Don’t buy into the idea that there are easy fixes for your marriage problems and they mostly involve your spouse doing more to meet your needs.
> We should always try to keep our marriage first. This requires that we step away from what our personal agenda for the relationship is sometimes and take a holistic approach to things. There are times that we need to be understanding of the fact that we are all human. There are times when we simply need to “let things go”, let ourselves and our partner be human and have flaws that we don’t pick apart. We have to stay focused on the creating positives in place of negatives.
> Sometimes there are issues in a relationship that really do need to be resolved. However, beware of buying into the idea that you must have full compliance to all of your marriage “requirements” in order to be happy. Sometimes you just need to back off and give your spouse some space until they are ready to engage you on a positive level again?


----------



## Conrad

Trenton said:


> I think you are carrying too much. As your story quietly unravels through your posts and your repertoire is revealed, it's obvious that you're dealing with more than your wise posts would let on. To lead is your only choice but I'm not sure that makes it a wise choice or a partnership.


Isn't that his call?


----------



## RDJ

Am I doing too much to hold up my marriage?

I don’t believe so; we only see my side of the story here. I have done many things over the years that my wife would have been within her rights to “end” our marriage. She stuck with me, as I stick with her. Marriage is a commitment. We struggle through the hard times, when we do, our marriage grows stronger. The bond between us is stronger, true love is built through enduring the hard times, not just the easy ones.

Do I take the lead as a man? Yes I do. Why?

There are many women right here on TAM that express the desire for a man who would lead in a good way. There are just as many who express that for a woman to feel safe, secure, loved, and sexually drawn to a man, they need him to be secure, strong, loving, kind, compassionate, caring, and masculine. If he is not, they do not respect him, and they lose their desire for him?

Male dominance? NO! 

Male leadership?


----------



## Caribbean Man

RDJ said:


> Want to talk about alcohol?
> 
> I don't drink, I never have, not a drop.
> 
> My wife is an alcoholic.
> 
> I took the lead there too.
> 
> I poured her alcohol down the sink. I expressed that her drinking was part of what was destroying our marriage. I expressed that alcohol was no longer allowed in our home.
> 
> She went bollistic. She ended up moving to a hotel with her bottle.
> 
> I expressed that although sad, it was her choice. I'm here if you want change.
> 
> *A few weeks later she came home. I compromised, she now has a few drinks. She no longer gets drunk, she no longer goes out to bars.*
> 
> She makes that choice, I lead for the better of our marriage. If she wants to return to being a drunk, she is free to do so, she just does so without me.
> 
> Simple as that!


:smthumbup:

Sometimes part of being the leader is not only knowing when to " back down " but how far to back down , or like you said , compromise.



BTW, I like your signature;

".......“Conflict is inevitable, combat is optional.”
Warmly,
RDJ......."

It works !


----------

