# My experience with a CSA survivor WW (trigger alert)



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

As there have been some threads recently that have involved WWs with a history of untreated CSA, I want to share an experience I had in my youth that I believe illustrates many of the commonalities of not only cheaters but more specifically those will CSA in their background. I share this in hopes it will show some warning signs and red flags and also to highlight just how disordered and how dark some of these situations can be. 

This scenario plays out over a period of several years so I will break this up into a few different parts. 

*PART 1* WARNINGS, DISCLAIMERS AND BACK GROUND.


WARNINGS AND DISCLAIMERS - This is from the OM's perspective and has the potential to trigger those that have been through adultery or have delt with someone with untreated CSA or personality disorders and such. 

Some of this will make probably make me look like scum of the earth but please try to keep in mind this was almost 30 years ago when I was young, dumb and single. My values and mores have changed over the years and I have shared my perspective as a former serial OM in these forums to help current BH's see the signs and red flags of adultery and offered how blow up the As and get their balls back. 

Some of this at times may sound like the old Penthouse Forums with wild tales too good to be true. But those times may be offset by things that sound too bad to be true. 

I also want to make clear that I do not want to paint ALL CSA survivors with a broad brush, nor do I want to imply that all WW behave this way. But I do think that may cheaters play off the same playbook and in looking back, I think she showed many of the same signs and behavors that are being described in some of these threads involving WWs with histories of CSA.

BACKGROUND -

In the fall of 1989 I was 25 years old and was commuting as a working adult student to a midwestern community college about a half hour or so from where I lived and worked.

In a couple of my classes was a 24 year old MW who had been married 2 years and had a one year old daughter. I will call her T. 

T was VERY pretty and very well dressed and stylish and have a very outgoing and flirtatious personality and just exuded an aura of sexuality. She had a porn star body and had such a sexy presence and style that you would not think twice if she to told you she was a stripper or did adult videos or something.

However She would talk openly of her H and DD just like anyone else so there was never any question of her marital status. 

She was way out of my dating league and no one that I would have ever stood a chance with on the open dating market. Her H was almost 10 years older and a county government official. 

While she was outgoing and very flirty, I was basically invisible to her and I don't know if she ever even spoke to me in the first several weeks of classes. 

As class went on, I found out that we did not live very far apart and both commuted to class (this will be significant later)


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

*Part 2: the c'mon heard 'round the world*

As I would come to find out in hearing her talk to some of her buddies in class, she lived just a matter of blocks from my workplace. 

The one Friday afternoon there was a class activity where everyone was getting pretty raucous and letting it all hang out and people were saying things that they wanted to improve in themselves and she made the comment that she needed to work on her sexdrive. Every had a good chuckle then went on with the class activity. 

As class was getting out and I was walking to my car in the parking lot, lo and behold she was parked right beside me and she was getting into her car. 

As I was walking by her I told her that if her sex drive kicked in over the weekend, that I was going to be at work for a 24 hr shift over the weekend and she could stop by and I'd see what I could do. 

She grumbled some kind of blow-off answer under her breath that I really couldn't hear and she shut her car door in my face and drove off. 

I took it as a not so polite F U and I went on about my business.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

edit


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

*Part 3: Monday morning*

So the next Monday morning rolls around and I am sitting in class waiting for class to start and she walks in and sits beside me and says to meet her after class as she wants to ask me something. 

This was the first time she had ever spoken to me. 

So I met her after class and she asked me where I lived and I told her. She said I was by her route to the school and asked if I would be interested in car pooling as we each had a bit of a drive and it could save us each some gas and give us some company during the commute etc. 

I said yeah sure fine. 

So for the next several days we started commuting together and we would shoot the **** and talk and joke around etc on the way to and from school 5 days a week. 

The convo was friendly and lighthearted but not flirty or sexual in nature at all...… The first week. 

The next Monday was after Halloween weekend and she was telling me about a Halloween party she and her H had at their house. She went on to say that at some point during the party they put some XXX movies in the VCR (remember this was 1989) and she talked about how hot and horny she got and that at some point she grabbed her H and pulled him into the storage closet under the stars and banged him right there in the closet with a house full of guests.

(Now I believe it was actually one (or more)of the guests that got those honors)

Anyhow, I told her how hot I thought that was and that I was impressed that she was that open to actually admit to me that she watched porn (remember this was the 80s and girls didn't do those things) and that I was stuck at work that weekend and was envious of her H. 

For the next few days our commutes were getting more sexually explicit and as I had a GF at the time, I shared a few of our adventures as well.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

*PART 4: THE PROPOSITION*

So another day or two goes and as we had a paper going to be do in a few days, she asks me if I'd like to get together in the evening and work on our papers together (I know this is making us sound like high schoolers) and she said to come by her house in the evening and we'd go to the library or something.

So I came to her house, she introduced me to her H and he knew about us riding together and that we had a paper due etc. 

She drove from her house and we ended up going out to eat first and then to the library and worked on our papers and nothing was out of the ordinary at all.

Then on the way back to her house and my car, she pulled into a park or parking lot or something out of the way and turned off the car. 

She turned to me and bluntly asked if I found her attractive and sexy and if I liked her. 

I kind of stammered out an awkward yes. She went on to matter of factly tell me that her H was a good H and father and provided a good, comfortable life for her and her D but that he had a real bad case of PE and that she had not had an orgasm with him in the couple years they had been together. 

She told me that she had an "open marriage" so she could get her needs met as she did not want to divorce. 

I asked her if he had a GF of his own and her reply was, "oh no. He would never do anything like THAT!" 

And when I asked if he knew that she was propositioning me, "she made a swallow that could be heard down the street and said that he would not want to know and that he wasn't "into sex" and that it would just make him uncomfortable and make him even worse in bed. 

So in otherwords, she was just looking for some strange on the side. 

She said she could tell I was not all that content and satisfied with my sex life with my GF (which was true) and that we could have a thing on the side and no one would know and we'd have lots of fun and it wouldn't have to effect our respective relationships. 

I sat there completely shocked at her bluntness and she moved over towards me in the car and started to kiss and feel me up. 

I was still kind o fin a state of shock...…. but I did not resist or pull away or stop. 

It was just a make out session fully dressed but it was passionate and intense. 

We eventually regained our composure and she started the car and took me back to my car at her house. 

She actually asked if I wanted to come in and hang out for awhile but I declined and headed back home amazed at what had just happened.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

*Part 5: The deed*


The next day on our commute she layed it all out there again and asked if my roommates would be home after we got back from class. 

I admitted they would be gone until evening. 

We back to my apt and were there for maybe 10 minutes before the clothes were on the floor and we were full throttle. 


She was completely uninhibited and passionate and it was strangely intense and urgent and yearning. She had orgasm after orgasm and position after position and we got it on for a couple hours and it was like a starving man at an all-you-can-eat buffet. 

Once I was done and exhausted, she wanted to sneak in a quickie before my roommates got home. 


This started turning in a number of times a week thing and each time more hungry and urgent than the time before. 


She was treating me like I had the Golden C0(k and that I was the world's greatest lover and gift to women. She praised my every move and always came back wanting more. 

I had had a number of GFs and some hook ups and flings and had even been with a couple MW before so I was used to their BS and lies but this was something different.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

*Part 6: Cracks in the foundation*

So our thang had been going on for a few weeks and during that time she was getting more intense. 

She was calling me day and night. Buying me gifts and expensive jewelry. 

As this was playing out, more and more of her backstory started coming out. Turns out her current H was actually her THIRD H (at 24 years old)

She said her 1st H was right out of high school and that they divorce because "he couldn't handle her and she was too sexual..." She turned around and married 2nd H but he was abusive and made her do things sexually she didn't want to do (like 3somes and group sex etc)

And while she never told me her actually body count, she strongly implied that she had been with dozens of men. 

She also started getting more needy and pressuring with me. She was basically wanting to date me and was making up every excuse in the book to get out of the house and go out with me. 

A couple times her H went on overnight trips and she was sleep with me at my place. We would do it at night, then she'd wake me up for more in the middle of the night and then again in the morning. 

One day she came by the house unannounced and had her D in the carseat. She left her D in the car (it was winter by this time) and was wanting to get it on while her D was alone in the car. 

I said she couldn't leave D in the car alone in the winter so she brought her into my apartment and she wanted to give her some toys and leave her alone in the living room while we get it on. 

I just simply could not do that. 

She also started to invite me to her house along with other friends from school while her H was there and have little card parties and such. I went once but she kept feeling me and grabbing my crotch under the table with her H sitting right there at the table. 

She tried to "show me something" in the basement while her H was there but my memory flashed back to her story of the Halloween party and that's when I figured out it was probably one of the guests that she banged at the party. 

Then after maybe a month-6 weeks she was telling me that she was in love with me and that she wanted to be with me and asking me if we could be together if I she left her H. 

I told her I was in no position for a full time relationship with a married woman with a young child .


This was making her more and more desperate...….and more and more sexual. She was now hitting on my day and night. She would come to my apt unannounced during the evening or on weekends and would be hitting on me infront of my roommates and would want to go to the bedroom and do it even if they were hanging out there in the living room.

Any time I would decline, she would get angrier and angrier. I was finally catching on that she wasn't just horny and that this wsn't about getting some extra on the side because her H was a dud in bed. I was realizing that she wasn't right in the head.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

*Part 7: The breakdown*


Things were coming to a head and it was obvious that something bad was going to happen. 


She was telling me that she couldn't eat or sleep and that all she could think of was being with me. 


In the meantime my GF was getting suspicious and things were getting strained there and I kniew that a breakdown was near. 

T was once again asking me to be there for her so she could leave her H. I flat out said no. 

She began crying and told me she had something to confess. 

I was young and somewhat naïve but on an instinctual level I knew she was gong to tell me she was molested. She told me her stepfather molested her from the time she was 12 until sh oe was in early high school


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## FieryHairedLady (Mar 24, 2011)

3 marriages by 24, wow and cheating too.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

*Part 8: CSA*


So she told me about the CSA. She said her stepfather would have sex with her and basically taught her how to perform oral and other specific skills. 

The twisted thing that has struck me all these years about it though is that she attributed her skills and prowess to her CSA and she told me that as a result of her childhood experiences is that she had to have intense sexual relationships but that no man had thus far been able to and I quote, "keep up with me" and that no one could satiate her need for male attention, acceptance and desire.

Her CSA did not make her repulsed or turned off to sex, it made her crave sexual attention and acceptance and the more she got, the more she craved. It was a bottomless pit and blackhole that just pulled in sexual energy. 

It was like she wasn't making a confession that she was broken and that she was the one with the problem... - it was that us mortal men couldn't keep up with her and couldn't satisfy or satiate her. 

At that point she about had me convinced I'd be the only one that could satisfy her. 

I quickly learned that was BS and was a line I was being fed, but to a horny 25 year old, that Siren Song is pretty powerful. 


Anyway, I knew that Armageddon couldn't be too far away and I basically told her that I needed to try to see if my relationship with my then GF could be salvaged or not and that we needed to cool it down before her H discovered what was really going on. 

She was mad and upset, but did not boil any bunnies or anything. 

There was an uneasy calm, but I couldn't tell if I had dodged a bullet or if it was the quiet before the storm. 


Things were actually quiet and peaceful for the next several months. Our class schedule was different the spring semester so we were no longer commuting.

We were pleasant and cordial when we'd run into each other at school, but we would each catch each other looking at each other longingly now and then. But things were quiet and peaceful the rest of the school year. 

…...until summer


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

*Part 9: Round 2*


2 things happened that following summer. 

My GF and I split up. I no longer had that as an excuse. 


And while I was single again, she tracked me down and had some other news for me. 

She was now a couple months pregnant. 

All the time lines fall into place perfectly and her son looks absolutely nothing like me so there was never any question that there was no way it was mine. 

She said it was her H's but I honest to God have no idea. I just know it ain't mine. 

Anyway, I assumed that this would be the final nails in our ill-fated affair and that it was over for good...… but I assumed wrong. 

She started showing up at my place and went full-court press. Her hormones were now out of whack and she was ten times hornier than she was before. Now she was bringing her own VHS porn tapes to my place for movie nights and such. 

Yes, I was now having unbridled porn sex with a pregnant married woman and she was more horny and more brazen than before. 

And again she was telling me that her H couldn't last more than 30 seconds and that he didn't believe in foreplay or any other techniques or activities to satisfy her and that now she needed to stay married and would have 2 kids to feed and support so she couldn't divorce but if she didn't have sex and have orgasms etc that she would go bonkers and didn't know what would happen. 

So some how she had me convinced that me having an intense sexual affair with her while she was pregnant was actually saving her marriage and protecting her kids :-O

This went on periodically throughout the summer and into the fall. It wasn't the daily or even weekly thing that it was before. But she would show up every few weeks or so and we'd have an intense, sweating session of monkey sex and she'd get dressed and head home. 

What was bizarre and strange about this time was she'd want me to pull out an finish on her pregnant belly and then she would get dressed and leave with it still there. She wouldn't wash it off before going home. A part of me wondered if maybe I was getting completely played and this was some kind of sick cuckold thing between her and her H or if she really was that disordered. 


This went on until I got deployed and was gone for about 9 months. More about my return.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

*Part 10: The long haul*

Late the next summer, I returned from active duty. Her son had been born and was a number of months old. I was working on getting back in school and back to work part time and basically resuming my life including starting to date a number of girls. 

And of course one day she was in the neighborhood and stopped by to chat and get caught up etc. 

And back in bed we went. 

This time was somehow different again and had a different flavor than our last two scenarios. 

The sex was still intense and varied and nasty. But we had more of our stride going and I hate to say it but we were more like a "couple." We basically had something of a relationship. We'd talk on the phone. There were times I would call her house and her husband would answer and I'd tell him it was me and I'd here him call her and tell her Oldshirt was on the phone and he'd hand her the phone and I'd tell her when I had some free time and could get together and she'd come over. 

She totally played off that I was "just a friend" and I was that guy from school that she rode to class with etc. 

She was basically living a double life. She had a happy home with young kids and a prominent husband and she would stop by my house every week or so for some hot porno sex and life just went on like that. 

Over time, I dated a number of girls and if I was busy T and I would see each other less and if I was between GFs or having a dry spell, we'd see each other more. 

I'm going to say it, I was not in love with her and never had the slightest intention of ever being with her - but I did have sincere fondness and affection for her...…. still do in some ways. 

This went on like this for a few more years. From start to the final hook up was almost 5 years. 

About the time I started seeing my now wife, our A had come to a natural end and died with a whimper and not a roar.


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## Welsh15 (Feb 24, 2014)

Wow, just wow...


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

*Final Chapter: Aftermath and Revelation*

In the dwindling days of our 'relationship' little slips of the tongue and connecting the dots and reading the signs that hormones had blinded me to in the early days, I came to realize I was just a pog in a very complex and disordered machine. I was just another face in the crowd. I was just another dispenser of attention and strokes. My Golden **** was just another blade of grass in a vast prairie. 


Over time she let out little bits of insight into her bedroom activities and there were many more than me. What separated me from the pack was not only could I get the job done on any particular day, but I would come back for more. 

I came to realize when she was talking about "a gal at work" that gang banged all the guys on the pool table after closing time, she was really talking about herself. 

I suspected it at the time, but I came to realize towards the end of our relationship after I had moved to a different house, that she continued to come to my old place and was now screwing my old roommate. 

Also during the end of our R, she left her H and they divorced. She didn't even ask me to see her anymore by that time. I knew she had a completely different parade of men by that time 

I did run into her several years later. At that time she had divorced either her 4th or even 5th husband and per words was not dating anyone seriously but was "renting on weekends" LOL

I was excited to see me at that time and was looking smoking hot and was very flirty. 

But by that time I was married and had young children and did not have any intention of subjecting myself to a trainwreck. 

Throughout all this time, she was unabashed by her CSA and saw her promiscuity as her way of dealing with it.


I'm really surprised she did not become a stripper or sex worker or something. 

Today we are friends on Facebook. She is has a degree and professional licensure and a respectable profession. 

She lives across the country and is married to husband #5 or 6 that I know of. And he is one of the geekiest and nerdiest looking guys I've ever seen. I dunno, maybe he's hung like a horse and can go 6 or 7 times a day. Maybe they are swingers or a Hot Wife or Cuckold couple. I dunno, I don't talk to her about sexual matters any more. 

I do think H #3 that is the father of her kids got taken for one big ride and while I am sure he now knows she was never faithful, I doubt if he has a clue as to how $lu++y she really was. 

I doubt if I know the tip of the iceberg. 


The reason I wrote all of this is to give a first-hand account of how deep the rabbit hole can go and how dark these situations can be. 

I was just an average guy in a classroom. I was just a guy that made one sophomoric c'mon in aparking lot. I was just a guy that she carpooled with. 

I've sat at their kitchen table playing cards with her husband as part of a study group from school. 

There were times she swung by my house for 20 minutes on the way to the store

I never banged her while her 1 year old was in the car or in the other room, but I betcha some other guy did. I hope and pray she never exposed her kids to pedophiles or predators and had happen to them what happened to her but I can certainly see how she may have. 

I may have been scum for my part in her disease but I know there are guys out there 10,000 times worse that me. 


This is experience is why I say many of the things I do and why I am so quick to say someone is cheating when I smell a rat. 

I'm willing to bet my last dollar her H would have said she was asexual and had no libido when she was with him. I'm sure he thought we were "just friends" and that she was "too busy" with work and school and taking care of their D to have an affair. 

The thing is she was screwing at work, screwing on the way to and from school. and was taking their daughter along to her trysts. She had time because that is what she did with her time. 

I don't mean to disparage her the way it sounds. I don't hate or even dislike her. A part of me loves her even. But she was a very disordered and damaged person who likely hurt and damaged many people in her wake.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Yeah. Then there are other CSA survivors who deal with their **** by becoming abusive and violent towards their children or their spouses, and so on.


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## FieryHairedLady (Mar 24, 2011)

@oldshirt thank you for sharing your story. WOW, just wow!


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

FieryHairedLady said:


> @oldshirt thank you for sharing your story. WOW, just wow!


I agree, I love your stories. 

And no offense, but you make me feel so much better about some of the things I have done. I mean that in a nice way...


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

Thanks for sharing. I dated a woman that was raped early in HS and she had a hyperactive sexual drive too. The relationship didn't last too long.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Oldshirt,

Thanks for posting.

Does your W or SO know you have this woman as a FB friend and if she does, does she know your history?

Did you ever think of suggesting to her children's father to get his kids DNA'ed?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

TAMAT said:


> Oldshirt,
> 
> Thanks for posting.
> 
> ...


My W is aware that there was a MW that was buying me gifts etc years before we met (she found an emerald ring with the receipt one day). She doesn't care who I have on my friends list. I have several old GFs and such on my friends list as does she. 

And no on the DNA. DNA testing wasn't a thing for the common man back in those days and the kids would be in their early 30s today. 

This was 30 years ago, I don't even remember his name.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*

This above is why I have great concerns for people like Bobert and Justawife's H and other people that are bonded to women like this.

I was not a tall, handsome, rich, charming, studly cool guy. I was just an average, geeky, broke student who wasn't even particularly sociable or even nice. 

I was just a guy who was completely invisible to her one moment, then made a juvenile off-the-cuff comment to her another moment and then days later was in sordid sexual affair that lasted several years. 

What will become of these women if an actual hot, studly guy makes a conserted effort to bed them?

Instances like these are not simple selfishness or an episode of bad judgement or even falling for someone they are around for a long time and develop sincere feelings. This is a compulsion and disorder. Mere regret and surveillance and the threat of divorce, custody battles etc will not keep these people out of other men's beds. 

And the fact there are over three billion horny men in the world means they are going to be immersed in a world of temptation and opportunity every day.*


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

oldshirt said:


> Instances like these are not simple selfishness or an episode of bad judgement or even falling for someone they are around for a long time and develop sincere feelings. This is a compulsion and disorder. Mere regret and surveillance and the threat of divorce, custody battles etc will not keep these people out of other men's beds.
> 
> And the fact there are over three billion horny men in the world means they are going to be immersed in a world of temptation and opportunity every day.


This is why it bugs me so much when people just blindly say 'so what, she had a crappy childhood, she's an adult now, just get over it.' Our brains COMPEL us to whatever our dysfunctional childhood creates in us. It's not a switch we turn on or off, it's WHO WE ARE. Why I pushed so hard for inpatient therapy in bobert's case - she will NEVER have a chance at deprogramming severe abuse without it.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

turnera said:


> This is why it bugs me so much when people just blindly say 'so what, she had a crappy childhood, she's an adult now, just get over it.' Our brains COMPEL us to whatever our dysfunctional childhood creates in us. It's not a switch we turn on or off, it's WHO WE ARE. Why I pushed so hard for inpatient therapy in bobert's case - she will NEVER have a chance at deprogramming severe abuse without it.


I do believe it is a compulsion for some people and goes beyond selfishness and poor boundaries.

In the case I discussed, T had already been divorced twice and the "abuse" that she said her 2nd husband inflicted may have been as a result if her cheating for all I know.

2 divorces, a 1 year daughter and possibly a beating or two did not stop her from going balls to the wall and professing love for me and wanting to leave her H for me. 

And I know she divorced her 3rd and 4th husbands and possibly a 5th so I know she is well aware of the ramifications.

In the case of Bobert's WW, she also took a beating and possibly a rape (the pregnancy may have been from the affair for all we know) and had child that threatened her marriage but yet still continued to see and profess love for OM 2. 

That seems to me to be a compulsion and out of control behavior. To me that goes beyond just being horny and liking OM2's abz and biceps. 

Now where the line is drawn between simple bad behavior and poor boundaries vs a pathological compulsion is above my pay grade. But I do know that for some people, the threat if divorce, losing their children, beatings etc etc is not enough to keep them out of other men's beds.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

It a bit sad that we all view such woman as beyond repair, perhaps they are, and the normal decencies of confessing to her betrayed spouse aren't even considered. 

Oldshirt thinks it's ok to keep her as a facebook friend.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

If I missed it my apologies, but I didn't see any comments to the effect of the (a) CSA? to a young man by a woman (not even a family member);

would?
might?
not?

cause the same similar actions in a man?

Just for the sake of discussion. 

(Truthfully I just read FW's thread on 3rd wave feminism)

So I thought I'd mention this tilt, for the sake of equality. 
😉😉😍😍


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> If I missed it my apologies, but I didn't see any comments to the effect of the (a) CSA? to a young man by a woman (not even a family member);
> 
> would?
> might?
> ...


I am sure that some of this is tongue in cheek but for me, while I am realize that some of the older women I slept with were guilty of some type of abuse... I have to say that I really did not mind. 

Did it warp me to some extent, I guess it may have.

But honestly I think it is way worse for any woman that is abused, especially some type of rape. 

But I also was not groped or raped by a man or something like that which has to be as bad as any of it and is horrible for those people.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

TAMAT said:


> It a bit sad that we all view such woman as beyond repair, perhaps they are, and the normal decencies of confessing to her betrayed spouse aren't even considered.
> 
> Oldshirt thinks it's ok to keep her as a facebook friend.


No one has said anyone is beyond repair. 

I am just saying that some people with histories of CSA that goes untreated can be way off the rails. Not every CSA victim will be compulsively promiscuous, but some certainly are. 

I shared my experience as an OM to show how deep that rabbit hole can go and to provide a perspective that we don't often get as most if the accounts we get here are from the BH who probably got a glimpse of the just the tip of the iceberg.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

In all my 60 years, I have never seen ONE woman right her own ship after CSA, without professional help. Most, by needs, will not even recognize they have a problem, let alone seek help, the shame is so deep.


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## inging (Dec 11, 2016)

turnera said:


> In all my 60 years, I have never seen ONE woman right her own ship after CSA, without professional help. Most, by needs, will not even recognize they have a problem, let alone seek help, the shame is so deep.


This is very true. Abuse by a close family member is betrayal of the worst kind. Adding to this the abuse is often swept under the carpet by other family members who are meant to be trustworthy. It is hidden and because of this it goes on for a long time with increasing normalisation as a kind of "love"

It is Incredibly difficult to come to terms with and deal with and by "difficult" I mean searingly painful. 
Many women do not want to relive this in therapy so bury it. 

There is that shame on so many levels. All that abuse done to them is seen though the eyes, and emotions, of the child they were. The lies they were told about love destroying and defining their relationships.

The devastating effects of CSA can not be overstated.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

turnera said:


> This is why it bugs me so much when people just blindly say 'so what, she had a crappy childhood, she's an adult now, just get over it.' Our brains COMPEL us to whatever our dysfunctional childhood creates in us. It's not a switch we turn on or off, it's WHO WE ARE. Why I pushed so hard for inpatient therapy in bobert's case - she will NEVER have a chance at deprogramming severe abuse without it.


And why it bothers me when they say they are sorry cry a lot and go to counseling and people pretend like they are still not very dangerous. (Not saying you are doing that. I know you don't think she is a good choice also.) I don't even think it's far to bobert's wife. Which is why I push so hard for separation and divorce. Sadly some people are not meant to be married. That doesn't mean they don't have my compassion, but in bobert's case that women is not on the board, he is.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

sokillme I get it. If he had NO CHILDREN, I would agree with you - run away. But there are kids involved. That means that adults have to act like adults and put their needs aside until the kids can fend for themselves.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

inging said:


> This is very true. Abuse by a close family member is betrayal of the worst kind. Adding to this the abuse is often swept under the carpet by other family members who are meant to be trustworthy. It is hidden and because of this it goes on for a long time with increasing normalisation as a kind of "love"
> 
> It is Incredibly difficult to come to terms with and deal with and by "difficult" I mean searingly painful.
> Many women do not want to relive this in therapy so bury it.
> ...




Nailed it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

@oldshirt so we have discussed why she behaved the way she did, it's obvious when you are abused as a child your feelings about sex can get all screwed up. Still I am curious whey do you think this kind of behavior was acceptable by you? Granted she was marred and you weren't but you were an active participant in invading their marriage. Do you think there was something in your childhood that allowed you to behave this way?

In your disclaimer you state that were young and dumb, but not all young and dumb people would have sex with another man's wife so it has to be more then that. What shaped your morals at a young age? What caused you to change you thinking on this?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

sokillme said:


> @oldshirt so we have discussed why she behaved the way she did, it's obvious when you are abused as a child your feelings about sex can get all screwed up. Still I am curious whey do you think this kind of behavior was acceptable by you? Granted she was marred and you weren't but you were an active participant in invading their marriage. Do you think there was something in your childhood that allowed you to behave this way?
> 
> In your disclaimer you state that were young and dumb, but not all young and dumb people would have sex with another man's wife so it has to be more then that. What shaped your morals at a young age? What caused you to change you thinking on this?


I had a Leave It to Beaver upbringing in a small, midwestern, farm community. No abuse. no trauma. No neglect. I had a good, clean, loving home and environment just like 95% of the rest of society. 

My rationale at the time is what I say about all OM - It was hot, NSA sex with none of the trappings of a legit relationship. Her BH unclogged the toilet, changed her oil and her flats, listened to her problems and offered advice and change her children's diapers and cleaned up their puke. 

meanwhile I had weekly (and at times more than weekly) hot, sweaty, breathless monkey sex and didn't have to provide anything but orgasms and ego strokes. 

I was a dorky, single, horny, broke college student and here was a smoke'n, hot, sexy chick that was way out of my league offering me free poon on a silver platter. 

Sure, not every guy would have taken the bait, but unless some guy is a rock star or pro athlete or some kind of celeb, those kind of stars just don't line up very often. At the time, I may have had an inkling that I 'might' regret taking her up on it some day into the future. But I knew with absolute certainty that I would regret declining the offer right then and there if I didn't do it. 

At that time in my life, I wanted to have some kind of NSA, casual thang with no relationship obligations. At the time, I had a GF that was pressuring me for commitment that I was becoming increasingly disgruntled and disappointed with and just wanted the fun and games without any of other relationship stuff. She showed up just when I needed her most. We each had a specific itch to scratch and were there for each other.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

sokillme said:


> [MENTION=284017]
> What caused you to change you thinking on this?


Just time, age and hopefully wisdom as the years went by. 

While it is the married person that has the vows of fidelity and the family unit that is threatened where as the single person is basically free to do as they wish - at some point one has to face that if everyone refused to shag with someone else's spouse, there would be no such things as adultery in the world. 

And in time I became married and had a home and family of my own so my perspectives and priorities shifted a bit. 

I'm not proud of some of the things I have done but my experiences have given me a perspective and first-hand knowledge that can help others in similar circumstances. 

I now advocate for the BS and try to help them see the red lfags and offer perspective on how to blow up the A and stand up for themselves.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

turnera said:


> sokillme I get it. If he had NO CHILDREN, I would agree with you - run away. But there are kids involved. That means that adults have to act like adults and put their needs aside until the kids can fend for themselves.


I disagree that parents should automatically be sacrificed at the alter of keeping children under one dysfunctional roof. 


In order for parents to take care of their children and provide a safe and healthy environment, they themselves must be safe and healthy first. 

The reason parents are instructed to put on their own oxygen mask first if an airliner loses cabin pressure is because if they are fighting with the kid to get them to wear the mask, the parent will become hypoxic and pass out and then both will die. If the parent can remain oxygenated, then they will be able to have the presence of mind to care for the child. 

I see this as the same concept. 

Bobert is being abused and traumatized beyond a reasonable degree threatening his own healthy, sanity and well being. If they stay under the same roof, will they really be able to provide a safe and healthy and nurturing environment by remaining together in this scenario????


"Acting like adults" is taking care of yourself and doing what it required for a safe and healthy environment. That does not automatically mean keeping everyone locked up in a box together. 

Adults and parents have to take care of business and do what is best to prevent further harm and further exposure to dysfunction and toxin. Some times that means two separate houses. 

Sometimes that means seeking primary/sole custody if the other parent is posing a risk or is not capable/willing to provide a safe environment. 

"acting like an adult" s weighing all the facts and considering all the options and making difficult decisions on what will be best even if what is best is dissolving the marriage and living in separate households.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

turnera said:


> sokillme I get it. If he had NO CHILDREN, I would agree with you - run away. But there are kids involved. That means that adults have to act like adults and put their needs aside until the kids can fend for themselves.


This kind of thinking always assumes the only way the kids can have good lives is if the parents stay married and that just isn't the case. I for instance grew much closer to my Father when my parents divorced. Growing up in an abusive home is a much worse option then one where the parents are separated and at least one is healthy. Like the saying goes better to be from a broken home then grow up in one. Divorce sometimes is salvation. Granted the problem if his daughter would have to be accounted for, but separation should at least be explored. 

There just as good a chance that staying married would do more harm to the kids and to the parents. Their situation is toxic and unfortunately she has and is creating the toxicity. Even if she wants to change (and all we have is her word) that doesn't mean she can. 

Sadly I think he is going to learn this the hard way.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

But your mother wasn't a CSA from the age of SIX with such a horrible compulsion and screwed up mind that she can't control herself. And unfortunately, unless bobert gets big time proof that she's turning out for every many she sees, the courts won't give him the kids. Do you know what happens in houses like hers would be? Her kids would end up being abused, sexually, physically, or both.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

turnera said:


> But your mother wasn't a CSA from the age of SIX with such a horrible compulsion and screwed up mind that she can't control herself. And unfortunately, unless bobert gets big time proof that she's turning out for every many she sees, the courts won't give him the kids. Do you know what happens in houses like hers would be? Her kids would end up being abused, sexually, physically, or both.


Bobert has a responsibility to protect and insure his children are in a safe environment. 

But that doesn't automatically mean that he has to suck it up and live with someone that is destroying his soul and crushing his humanity. 

He can advocate for her to get court-mandated treatment before having unsupervised visitation, he can enlist the support of other family members, people have been ordered by the courts to not bring strange men into the home around the children etc etc and the list goes on and on. 


Yes this is a complex situation and he will have to do a lot of heavy lifting to make sure the kids are safe but it is not an all-or-nothing type of situation. This is why we have courts and child protective agencies.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

turnera said:


> But your mother wasn't a CSA from the age of SIX with such a horrible compulsion and screwed up mind that she can't control herself. And unfortunately, unless bobert gets big time proof that she's turning out for every many she sees, the courts won't give him the kids. Do you know what happens in houses like hers would be? Her kids would end up being abused, sexually, physically, or both.


 @turnera, we all get that you had CSA and it affected you horribly. And we all feel sorry and have as much empathy for you as we can, and as people that have not suffered that abuse. 

However, your views as a CSA victim, do not stop us from disagreeing with you and trying to present a different perspective of bobert's and other peoples situation. 

For example, I understand that bobert's wife is damaged, broken and she has suffered horrible abuse. I get it. I also get that bobert is kind of a weak man, probably and probably has Asperger's or some form of autism or is on some part of the spectrum, but none of that changes what I feel about this marriage. 

In that situation, bobert's marriage... 

1) despite her horrible CSA, this woman is an adult, and she has horribly abused HER HUSBAND, who did nothing but stand by her and love her.

2) SHE for whatever reason choose to use and abuse him in ways almost unheard of. 


3) I believe in the long run that it would be best for bobert to divorce her, try to get custody of the children, except the daughter, try to grow up and become a better man, and father, and remove her out of his life and start a new one with new priorities. 

4) I believe that he will not do that, but I think that if the above happened, it would be better for the children, better for bobert, and even, in the long run better for his wife. 

None of those thought say that I am not empathetic for this broken woman's CSA, or that I don't understand it caused her to do some of the things that she did. But neither does it excuse what she chose to do as an adult, in that she has used and abused her husband. 

I believe that bobert would stand a better chance at becoming a healthy man, and father without this woman in his life. 

Do you at all see where some of us are coming from????


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Getting back on topic. 

No offense to oldshirt (I believe and am glad he changed) but it's interesting that we are all quick to see the women in this thread as damaged and her compulsion driven by abuse. I think most would feel revulsion at her actions, and rightly so. 

But then it doesn't seem like the guy in the story is seen with as much revulsion. It kind of seems like the thinking is, he was just taking advantage of his options or less culpable. Lot's of people, guy's especially (maybe not most on here here) would think his actions understandable and even something to be admired. This would also probably be weighted on how hot she was. The hotter she is the more understandable it is. Or the idea that men need to get off and you can't blame him if it's offered. I mean if that is all it was about then why not just use your hand. If that is all it's about then you have a responsibility to use your hand. 

See I don't think that is really what it's about. I think it's about having that notch on your belt. Being able to say you got a hot women to have sex with you. It says something very wrong about our society that sleeping with a married women still seems like an accomplishment depending on how attractive she is. 

The other justification would be that he didn't make any vows, which I call bull****, was the hurt any less great? Was the damage any less severe? I look at this like when someone robs a bank and kills someone, in lots of states they still charge the get-away driver with murder. That seem fair to me as they were still was a part of that killing. Same goes here, you can't plead ignorance. When you are involved in adultery you play an equal part in a person's suffering. 

I am really tired of this kind of thinking. It's an embarrassment to me as a man. You know who thinks like this, little boys, not men. I hold all men up to a bigger standard then that. I also don't think you can say you are against Adultery and still have this kind of attitude. I don't think there is truth in that dichotomy.

My overall point is at least for this women you could say she had a reason for acting like she did, and that it initially came from no fault of her own. But for the guys like the young oldshirt and many other like that what is their reason? Oldshirt himself says he was raised in a good home. So how do that get to the point where this kind of behavure is justified in their mind? Presumably most of those guys wouldn't go into this guys house and steal something, they wouldn't steal his car because the just know instinctively it's wrong. Or at least I hope they know that. So why in this case isn't it just as intuitive? The damage is much worse. Is it just that they are not taught better? If so what does THAT say about our society?

Maybe they don't steal the car because of the possible consequences, but then isn't that an argument for more consequences? And yes I get it lots of these guys would steal the car. But then what happened to them, if we can ascribe her actions based on CSA what caused their damage?

If anything I think the one who doesn't have the history of abuse in their background is more culpable.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

This story is a very good example of why CSA is a horrible thing. It can destroy the very fiber of the victim.

The man who abused this woman picked on a child who was defenseless to use sexually. And the child learned a lesson... pick on those who are 'vulnerable.' She also learned that the only value she had as a person is to be used for sex.

As an adult, she relived her abuse over and over by picking on men who were not in her league in looks/attraction because she knew that they would be willing to use her. That they would look at her as something of value that they could have. 

This story says as much about the woman involved as it does the man involved.

Oldshirt, I'm not attacking you. I just do not see you as some guy who she used. I'm glad that you have grown some and now realize that there was something very wrong in all that happened. But I still don't think that you realize that in her mind, you were on the same level as her step father.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> This story is a very good example of why CSA is a horrible thing. It can destroy the very fiber of the victim.
> 
> The man who abused this woman picked on a child who was defenseless to use sexually. And the child learned a lesson... pick on those who are 'vulnerable.' She also learned that the only value she had as a person is to be used for sex.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't go that far. First of all even if you think it is abuse there is a difference in passively abusing her and actively. 

However I strongly don't see this women as a victim when it comes to her affairs. Like I said in the other thread we never give people who have been abused the same grace when they go shooting up a school or something like that. By that logic almost all criminals have some sort of abuse in their background, we still hold them responsible. Very often these people have suffered at the hands of others for long periods of time. I think we should hold people like this women to the very same standard. 

Unless you have some sort of mental retardation everyone knows right from wrong. The fact that affairs are kept secret proves that people know they are doing something very wrong. After all if she didn't think what she was doing was going to hurt her husband then Oldshirt would just have been another boyfriend out in the open. She is damaged but no victim here. 

I look at both people in this story as using each other. The only victim here was the husband and their kids if they have them.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

sokillme said:


> I wouldn't go that far. First of all even if you think it is abuse there is a difference in passively abusing her and actively.
> 
> However I strongly don't see this women as a victim when it comes to her affairs. Like I said in the other thread we never give people who have been abused the same grace when they go shooting up a school or something like that. By that logic almost all criminals have some sort of abuse in their background, we still hold them responsible. Very often these people have suffered at the hands of others for long periods of time. I think we should hold people like this women to the very same standard.
> 
> ...


You misunderstood what I wrote.

I don't see her as a victim or him as an abuser. What I was talking about is what is going on in her head. She is replacing her abuser with these guys that she is sleeping around with... she is reliving the abuse over and over and over. So yea, she is using him.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> You misunderstood what I wrote.
> 
> I don't see her as a victim or him as an abuser. What I was talking about is what is going on in her head. She is replacing her abuser with these guys that she is sleeping around with... she is reliving the abuse over and over and over. So yea, she is using him.


Ah I see, then yes I agree. It's about control for her in a way. But it's about notches for him. The whole thing is a kind of a corruption of what sex is supposed to be about, which at least in my mind is intimacy. I don't think either party thinks of the other in what they are doing it's all a completely selfish undertaking. It's more like a trade of goods and services or bartering. Both using each other. 

This is kind of why I never got the whole status thing from having sex with a lot of people. It's also why I don't get the Red Pill. I guess I am just different but I just never saw the amount of people I had sex with having any relation at all to my value or attractiveness. I just assumed someone who was quick to jump into bed with me would be quick to jump into bed with someone else. Which in my mind meant to them I was nothing special. I always felt it reflected much better on me the type of person who would want to sleep (or be intimate) with me.

It's hard to call this kind of affair intimate at all.


I think that is in part what I am trying to say in my last post. The idea of sex-count equaling status leads to these kind of ****ed up situations. I think it's an idea that is archaic and needs to go away.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

> Ah I see, then yes I agree. It's about control for her in a way. But it's about notches for him. The whole thing is a kind of a corruption of what sex is supposed to be about, which at least in my mind is intimacy. I don't think either party thinks of the other in what they are doing it's all a completely selfish undertaking. It's more like a trade of goods and services or bartering. Both using each other.


Just to add to this..

What is also interesting is for the guy this kind of thinking isn't even seen as usual and to many it's perfectly acceptable. It's also not seen as a loss or compromise or settling. Like why should us men want to strive for a deeper connection then just this kind of meaningless sex for status? I don't ever hear this kind of thing discussed.

Like what the hell?!

Then when you think about how so many young men are depressed and dropping out, I think this is part of the reason. We have been taught that this kind of meaningless self gratification is the path to happiness.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

sokillme said:


> But then it doesn't seem like the guy in the story is seen with as much revulsion. It kind of seems like the thinking is, he was just taking advantage of his options or less culpable. Lot's of people, guy's especially (maybe not most on here here) would think his actions understandable and even something to be admired. This would also probably be weighted on how hot she was. The hotter she is the more understandable it is. Or the idea that men need to get off and you can't blame him if it's offered. I mean if that is all it was about then why not just use your hand. If that is all it's about then you have a responsibility to use your hand.
> 
> See I don't think that is really what it's about. I think it's about having that notch on your belt. Being able to say you got a hot women to have sex with you. It says something very wrong about our society that sleeping with a married women still seems like an accomplishment depending on how attractive she is.


This part here, I just have to disagree. First off, is you are dealing with a MW and a SOM then I just have to disagree. 

Now, personally, I would not do the things I did in my past, but it is different. I would not do it now because I do see that there is some immorality in sleeping with someone that is attached... I get that NOW but it is different if you yourself are not attached...


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

BluesPower said:


> This part here, I just have to disagree. First off, is you are dealing with a MW and a SOM then I just have to disagree.
> 
> Now, personally, I would not do the things I did in my past, but it is different. I would not do it now because I do see that there is some immorality in sleeping with someone that is attached... I get that NOW but it is different if you yourself are not attached...


What did it take for you to get it now? 

Sure you don't think it's different precisely because you get it NOW and you didn't get it before. It's the difference in being beat up by a stranger or someone you know. You are still being beat up. Still doing harm to someone else by your actions.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> As an adult, she relived her abuse over and over by picking on men who were not in her league in looks/attraction because she knew that they would be willing to use her. That they would look at her as something of value that they could have.
> 
> This story says as much about the woman involved as it does the man involved.
> 
> Oldshirt, I'm not attacking you. I just do not see you as some guy who she used. I'm glad that you have grown some and now realize that there was something very wrong in all that happened. But I still don't think that you realize that in her mind, you were on the same level as her step father.


Please realize that I am now looking at this with 30 additional years of experience and wisdom and insight. 

Some of what you have said above I think has great insight and some of those things have crossed my mind in recent weeks as well. 

Other things I'm not so sure about. 

I now do believe that she saw me as a bit of a snake in the grass that would provide her sexual attention and adoration and excitement and orgasms and that I would be grateful she was screwing me at all and most importantly that I would not ask her for anything else. 

She knew I was not BF/husband/father material and knew I would not ask any of those types of things of her in return. That is why she went for me. 

She got all of that in spades. 

I do not in anyway feel that she "used" me however. Nor do I feel that I used her in any way. We each had a special itch that needed to be scratched and we were each willing to scratch the other's itch in return.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> Please realize that I am now looking at this with 30 additional years of experience and wisdom and insight.
> 
> Some of what you have said above I think has great insight and some of those things have crossed my mind in recent weeks as well.
> 
> ...


It’s just that her itch was actually just left over self defeating/coping behaviors from being raped repeatedly as a child. So not really comparable.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> It’s just that her itch was actually just left over self defeating/coping behaviors from being raped repeatedly as a child. So not really comparable.


Comparable to what? A monogamous, marital relationship with a loving, supportive spouse? That was already not in the cards for her.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> Comparable to what? A monogamous, marital relationship with a loving, supportive spouse? That was already not in the cards for her.


It’s not comparable to the normal sexual itch sexually healthy people have.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> It’s not comparable to the normal sexual itch sexually healthy people have.


Maybe not; but that itch is still just as real and just as pressing to the person who has it. 

People may point fingers and lecture that they shouldn't have that itch but they still want it scratched just the same.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> Maybe not; but that itch is still just as real and just as pressing to the person who has it.
> 
> People may point fingers and lecture that they shouldn't have that itch but they still want it scratched just the same.


Speaking as a person who has had that itch every day for my entire life, yes they do want it scratched.

But speaking as a person who has an understanding of what (some) people who were repeatedly raped in childhood do in their own adulthood, it is not the same itch.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> Speaking as a person who has had that itch every day for my entire life, yes they do want it scratched.
> 
> But speaking as a person who has an understanding of what (some) people who were repeatedly raped in childhood do in their own adulthood, it is not the same itch.


That may be true but at that point they have trouble differentiating between what is an itch that is on the approved list and what is on unapproved list. 

And it's not like they walk around in society with a label sign stuck to their forehead identifying them as a CSA victim. 

We all have itches. We all want them scratched.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> That may be true but at that point they have trouble differentiating between what is an itch that is on the approved list and what is on unapproved list.
> 
> And it's not like they walk around in society with a label sign stuck to their forehead identifying them as a CSA victim.
> 
> We all have itches. We all want them scratched.


I agree. It’s just that it is still tragic, not healthy. And of course people will use that tragedy for their own purposes. Being self serving is universal. 

There is something to be said for not being self serving when it would harm others.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Maybe not; but that itch is still just as real and just as pressing to the person who has it.
> 
> People may point fingers and lecture that they shouldn't have that itch but they still want it scratched just the same.


We ALL have the itch. It's about the choices we make on how we are going to scratch it.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

sokillme said:


> We ALL have the itch. It's about the choices we make on how we are going to scratch it.


Yeah and what CSA often does is breaks down those filters and barriers that keeps people from scratching them in healthy ways.


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## FieryHairedLady (Mar 24, 2011)

turnera said:


> But your mother wasn't a CSA from the age of SIX with such a horrible compulsion and screwed up mind that she can't control herself. And unfortunately, unless bobert gets big time proof that she's turning out for every many she sees, the courts won't give him the kids. Do you know what happens in houses like hers would be? Her kids would end up being abused, sexually, physically, or both.


Unfortunately, they may very well already be, or have been, right under his nose. @oldshirt's thread about his crazy ex.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

FieryHairedLady said:


> Unfortunately, they may very well already be, or have been, right under his nose. @oldshirt's thread about his crazy ex.


She wasn't really an ex since we were never a couple, but yes she did bring her 1 year old over to my house. 


But an incident I know of that does show your point is an old National Guard buddy of mine was married to a recalcitrant cheater. He transferred into my unit because the unit he was in prior was a few hours away and she was hooking up with dudes while he was away on drill weekends. He transferred to my unit to be closer to home so he could be home at night in an attempt to keep her from banging other guys. 

Even though he was no longer out of town on drill weekends she was still cheating. 

She would get caught and she would cry and beg to stay together and plead for another chance. 

At one point they had separated but like what was being discussed here, they had a young child and he thought if they could be under the same roof, he could keep the parade of men away from the child so he agreed to get back together in the marital home. 

One night he left work early or got someone to cover him on the night shift and as he was heading home, he saw the OM's car parked down the street so he tip-toe'd into the house and she and the OM were banging one out in the bedroom right down the hall from where the son was sleeping. 

Instead of kicking in the door and disemboweling the OM in the act, he realized the futility of the whole situation and quietly packed up the son and went to a motel. 

It wasn't until the next morning that she noticed him and the son missing and started calling around looking for them. 

It was then that he knew she was completely incorrigible and finally split for good and divorced her. 

I do not know if she had a history of CSA and I discharged soon after that so don't know what their custody arrangement was. 

But my point here is I realize one may be able to reduce or lessen the exposure of the kids to strange men, but if someone is that broken, even remaining married and under the same roof is no guarantee. You can't be there 24/7 and can't police a broken person determined to bring others around.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Yeah and what CSA often does is breaks down those filters and barriers that keeps people from scratching them in healthy ways.


I was talking about you though. You seem to be putting yourself on a different level as her and I am not sure why? You were both partaking in the same actions. Yes she was damaged but you presumably were not, in your own words just young and dumb.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

sokillme said:


> I was talking about you though. You seem to be putting yourself on a different level as her and I am not sure why? You were both partaking in the same actions. Yes she was damaged but you presumably were not, in your own words just young and dumb.


We were on different levels. No comparison. 

Sure I have some accountability and I was a participant in an act of adultery. As I said in an earlier post, if no one ever hooks up with someone else's spouse, there would be no adultery in the world. 

But let's be realistic here, I was a single man and had no vow of fidelity to anyone. I did not have a spouse or children or a family that I put at risk. 

I did not come home and lie to a spouse or made anyone believe that I was a dutiful and faithful spouse to them while I screwed another. 

I just happened to be the guy she picked at that particular time; if it hadn't been me, it would have been someone else. 

My hands may not be completely clean in this, but there is no blood on them either. 

I am not on my 5th or 6th spouse. I have not cheated on my spouse or split up my kids home due to my infidelity. 

I didn't even have anything to do with their divorce. I don't know the details of their divorce so I don't know if she left him so she could get with others more readily or whether she got caught with someone else but I was already out of the picture before they split so I can't even be blamed for their divorce. 

I was no angel and my behavior was not what my grandmother would approve of and she would have been very disappointed in me. But were we equals in our level of "badness"? absolutely not.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Thanks for sharing Oldshirt


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> We were on different levels. No comparison.
> 
> Sure I have some accountability and I was a participant in an act of adultery. As I said in an earlier post, if no one ever hooks up with someone else's spouse, there would be no adultery in the world.
> 
> ...


I wonder if you see yourself as any different than the OM in bobert's thread? Would you extend him as much grace if he were on here as you have yourself?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

sokillme said:


> I wonder if you see yourself as any different than the OM in bobert's thread? Would you extend him as much grace if he were on here as you have yourself?


It's not about grace. It's about reality. 

If a MW is going to offer it up for free, there are going to countless takers. That may be wrong in the biblical sense and it may be scummy, but it's a reality. 

I've said it countless times here on CWI forum and I have said it about myself, the role of the OM in 95% of the cases is just getting cheap and easy NSA poon. 

If the OM was on here, there wouldn't be much for him to say as all he'd really have to say for himself is that he had an opportunity for some hot, nasty NSA sex and he took it. 

And there wouldn't be much else that anyone else could say to him other than it was a crappy thing to do and people shouldn't hook up with other people's spouses. 

OM1 does add an additional element of criminality with the assault and there is more to his story since he has been fighting so hard for parental rights for the daughter. 

The other 99.99999% of other men out there would be running the other way as fast as they could so I'm not really sure what that is all about. 

Other than saying it is a $h1++y thing to do and that you shouldn't be doing it, there really isn't much else you can say to a single OM. (OM2 is a different situation since he is also married and is cheating on his BW) 


About the only real advice I could offer an OM is to work on himself to bump up his market value to make himself more attractive to single women so he won't have to worry about getting his azz kicked by a jealous BH. 

But other than those things, there really isn't much else you can say.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

sokillme said:


> What did it take for you to get it now?
> 
> Sure you don't think it's different precisely because you get it NOW and you didn't get it before. It's the difference in being beat up by a stranger or someone you know. You are still being beat up. Still doing harm to someone else by your actions.


No, there were points in my life that I did not care if she was married or not, I guess some of it is just age. 

But you can make the case that you are single and she wants to get laid, and you do that for her. Yes there is something that is not right, but you are not cheating on someone yourself, she is...

I guess that I just did not want that level of drama in my life, and I wanted a different life than just sleeping around as it does get old. 

But, I maintain that a single person and a married person, the degree of immorality is different. 

I mean, I have slept with women that I did not know were married, surly I cannot be culpable for anything in that type of situation. 

Anyway, I am not saying it is right, I am saying that it is different...


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

BluesPower said:


> But you can make the case that you are single and she wants to get laid, and you do that for her. Yes there is something that is not right, but you are not cheating on someone yourself, she is....


You are contributing and a part of that cheating though. You have read these threads and seen how much pain these people are in. How can you be a part of that and then act like it's not a big deal. And make no mistake you ARE a part of that. You are personally actively contributing to others pain.

The excuse (if not me someone else) doesn't mean it's not you doing it.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

sokillme said:


> You are contributing and a part of that cheating though. You have read these threads and seen how much pain these people are in. How can you be a part of that and then act like it's not a big deal. And make no mistake you ARE a part of that. You are personally actively contributing to others pain.
> 
> The excuse (if not me someone else) doesn't mean it's not you doing it.


I'll give this some more contemplation and self reflection and see if I can put my perspective into words.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

There is one thing apparent; it's up to the/a married man or married woman not to have an affair. 

A single man, young or old, may not know the WW is married if she propositions him. A single man will likely accept the proposition if she's attractive and laying it on, especially if alcohol and party environment is happening. 

A younger man, yes, will ignore more "suspicions" of marriage if he's getting laid. 

A younger man will also have no idea at the time whether a woman us a CSA victim. He will almost certainly at a young age have no clue what any CSA signs are. Especially years ago, pre mass media and internet. 

CSA's are horrible. Especially for women, and man/man.

Women/young men maybe not so much. *My earlier comment on that tilt was indeed more tongue in cheek. But hey this might be wrong.

Re how young men will likely sleep with anything that moves is true, it just is. @oldshirt i can agree that your additional age has has brought wisdom.

There has been a mention of "the reality is" and the reality is still a young man is still, in our times, likely to draw confidence from being successful with "the ladies".

He'll more likely be more confident in his school, and early work career, likely have an increased number of friends and be more popular.

Very similar for a large portion of women.

This is the reality. 

It's what's taught the boy (and girl) in early life as to how long this period lasts before his confidence sources shift back, once his hormones stop blowing his mind AND he has gotten enough sex so it's not a 100% mystery to uncover anymore. 

So, back to the other reality; it is up to the married man and woman themselves to not cheat. Because if they offer it up, someone will (wrongly I most certainly agree) take it.

That's reality.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> There is one thing apparent; it's up to the/a married man or married woman not to have an affair.
> 
> A single man, young or old, may not know the WW is married if she propositions him. A single man will likely accept the proposition if she's attractive and laying it on, especially if alcohol and party environment is happening.
> 
> ...


So hormones huh?

Funny CSA is not an excuse to most of us, but for many of you hormones are right?

You realize you are making the same kind of argument that she could be making. I was abused, having sex with these men made me feel good about myself.

I wonder if you can see my eyes rolling.

Look I like an respect a lot of you guys I also believe that you wouldn't do this stuff now that you are older. But you are just wrong on this. It's really hard to take you seriously when you have such double standards.

There is always an excuse if you look for one.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

I can see your eyes rolling, no worries 🙄🙄 I 😊😊

I knew when I posted there would be /could be opposing views. And certainly I don't have all the answers.

It's what boys are taught growing up that reigns them in after a short period of throwing themselves into solving the mystery of sex.

Taught good core values of mutual respect for women and men, they return to those values. And they don't turn into disrespectful idiots during the time they realize they can bed women, just not as discerning for a while.

Put a 16 to 23 year old young man in a room with an attractive woman that wants to jump his bones, expresses that to him in no uncertainterms, especially in a party environment, and nine out of ten times he's bumping uglies with her as soon as possible. 

There will be a couple minutes of "is she talking to me, reallly?" if she says let's go, he's gone! He may take a second to wonder if she's a serial killer but if shes hot, and no immediate serial killer signs, again, he's gone!

I'm also not saying who's right and wrong here, but this is for a majority a reality.

It's a double standard I definitely agree. And one I don't really agree should be, but it just is.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I'm also not saying who's right and wrong here.


You're not?

It's wrong period. Not that hard.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

I'm talking about if a married woman hits on a young man without saying she's married. Then telling him after a few times of getting together. She's wrong to cheat, then he's wrong if he partakes again after being told. 

I did say the double standard on its face I don't agree with.

That, tragically, doesn't make it less true.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

@sokillme No one is saying that it ok for a young, single man to get down with a married woman and no one is saying that it should be endorsed or get a free pass to poach whatever married chick they want.

We are just saying that it is a fact of life that very few if hardly any young single men are going to pass up a very attractive MW making a conserted effort to bed him. 

Saying it is common and reality is not the same as saying it is ok 

IMHO it is also a reality that he may get his azz kicked by the BH if caught. That may not be legal or condoned by society, but getting one's azz whupped for messing with someone's spouse is a valid risk.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> @sokillme No one is saying that it ok for a young, single man to get down with a married woman and no one is saying that it should be endorsed or get a free pass to poach whatever married chick they want.
> 
> We are just saying that it is a fact of life that very few if hardly any young single men are going to pass up a very attractive MW making a conserted effort to bed him.
> 
> ...


And @oldshirt, let's face it, I was an old single guy and I could not/did not turn it down, so maybe I am worse than you at some level...


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

My point in this is if some MW has either some kind of compulsion or just simply nonexistent boundaries and sets off to hook up with others, there will always be takers. 

There will always be takers and many will not hesitate one moment or give it one second thought. 

That is why these situations are so high risk. 

If some WW has it in her to hook up with whoever catches her eye, more often than not, she will accomplish it. 

That may be sad and a bitter pill to swallow, but it is a reality.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> My point in this is if some MW has either some kind of compulsion or just simply nonexistent boundaries and sets off to hook up with others, there will always be takers.
> 
> There will always be takers and many will not hesitate one moment or give it one second thought.
> 
> ...


For those here who are looking for something long term and as safe as can be, do you believe it is possible to tell the difference between someone who is more likely to stray in a committed relationship or marriage? 

I know this is about CSA survivors, but I also know the thread has gone a bit off topic. If this question is too far off, just say so. 

What did you glean from that CSA relationship that allowed you to find a suitable wife for a long-lasting relationship? What did you learn about yourself and maybe about the women you might choose to date?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

2ntnuf said:


> For those here who are looking for something long term and as safe as can be, do you believe it is possible to tell the difference between someone who is more likely to stray in a committed relationship or marriage?
> 
> I know this is about CSA survivors, but I also know the thread has gone a bit off topic. If this question is too far off, just say so.
> 
> What did you glean from that CSA relationship that allowed you to find a suitable wife for a long-lasting relationship? What did you learn about yourself and maybe about the women you might choose to date?


the main thing I gleaned from my experience with this person is that it confirmed what my very wise old school-marm mother had been telling me since I was a young kid - and that is chicks with daddy issues and FOO issues are very messed up and dysfunctional and not to get involved with them. 

So all I can really is that if someone had some kind of daddy issues or a history of CSA issues etc do not marry or become committed in any way with them and do not give them an access to your financial accounts or to your DNA. 

Now the catch to that is people do not walk around with warning labels or anything so you'll just have to keep your eyes and ears open and heed the warning signs and red flags. 

If someone is unusually promiscuous, it is probably for a reason. 

If someone is love-bombing you and trying to pull you into a relationship at warp speed, they are probably a loose cannon. 

I have also learned to be very wary and suspicious of anyone who claims to have been assaulted/raped/molested/date raped etc multiple times or by multiple people. 

Sure anyone can be victimized once if someone jumps out of a cargo van as they go walking by carrying groceries to the car. There is probably a few super tragic and unlucky people that it has happened twice. 

But if someone is claiming that their father and uncles and stepfather and cousin Joey and brothers and neighbor down the street and every high school boyfriend they ever met all molested/raped them or date raped them etc - it is because THEY are the fruitcake and loose cannon and it will just be a matter of time before YOU are added to the list of people who deceived and molested them. 

The issue here is for some of these people they simply have no sense of what is normal and healthy. If someone is engaging in high-risk, inappropriate behavior- that is someone you'd probably best avoid.


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## Violet28 (Oct 4, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> You would not think twice if she to told you she was a stripper or did adult videos or something


Is thinking a woman is a stripper or may have done adult videos a turn-on for most men? If I thought that about a man, it would be a turn-off. I would think if diseases and how many people that he probably f****d that and that he had no standards.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Violet28 said:


> Is thinking a woman is a stripper or may have done adult videos a turn-on for most men? If I thought that about a man, it would be a turn-off. I would think if diseases and how many people that he probably f****d that and that he had no standards.


That would be a question for a separate thread. 


The point I was trying to make when I made that statement was that she was so sexual in demeanor, speech and dress, that if you were to run into her out and about somewhere you may think that she may be a stripper or escort or nude model or something.


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