# Living together before marriage; good?



## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/15/o...marriage.html?pagewanted=1&ref=general&src=me

This is an article that says those who want to test their relationship out by living together first are more likely to have a failed marriage. I agree. I think living together is a bad idea if you are not already 100% sure you want to get married. I lived with my H before we married but I knew I wanted to marry him. Signing the paper was a formality for me. I didn't need to test anything out. Still, I think even this created some problems for us as he got the wrong impression and was nonchalant about proposing after that. 

What do you guys think? If you feel you still need to test the relationship, should you cohabitate?


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

I agree with the article.
People who don't undertand the concept of marriage as it defines a certain commitment are the ones who cohabitate. Therefore the div rate is bound to be higher.


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## JJG (Mar 9, 2011)

I agree that men can become 'nonchalant' about marriage if you dont go into the arrangement 'on the same page'. But i 100% think you should always live together before marriage. Even if you get engaged then live together. 

This is the rest of your life you are dealing with! Would you buy a car without taking it for a test drive?


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## ShawnD (Apr 2, 2012)

Blanca said:


> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/15/o...marriage.html?pagewanted=1&ref=general&src=me
> 
> This is an article that says those who want to test their relationship out by living together first are more likely to have a failed marriage. I agree.


Indeed. People who live together without being married tend to be a lot more liberal. They don't always see marriage as a life long thing, so they'll end it when it goes sour. They might even end it before it goes sour.

People who are a bit more traditional will hang on even though the marriage is clearly a lost cause. My gf's parents are extremely religious, and their marriage has been total garbage since the beginning. Despite that, they've been married for something like 27 years. The chance of them getting divorced is close to 0%.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

I agree with the article as well. Especially the part about folks slipping into living together w/o even really talking about it sometimes. It's all too easy and doesn't allow a moment to reflect if this is wise.

Ok excuse my quick aside, but I've thought about this very issue from another angle: time. Let's say for the sake of discussion that your serious years to be married and live an adult life are from 20-80. I know some live longer and some get married or start their adult lives earlier, but for the sake of discussion adult life is 60 years.

If you live with someone for 6 years don't get married and then split up. You've given 10% of your adult life to a failed relationship. If you spend 3 years, that's 5%, etc.... no need to spout more numbers.

There is value in just reducing time you spend dating a particular person, and spending that time really evaluating who they are as a person. If they are a poor match better find out soon, ditch them and move on. The longer the relationship lasts, the harder it is to move on if that person isn't marriage material for you (for a lot of reasons). One person in the article even mentioned this: that they got married because they had dated a long time and they were in their 30's (not exactly a great reason for marriage imo).

Moving in together delays marriage, and imo doesn't promote clear thinking as to whether or not the person is a good life partner match.

My wife and I didn't live together, heck she was a virgin when we married, and really we didn't come across anything (save about sex, but that's another topic) in our married lives that we didn't already get a good clue about dating. We knew each other, what our dreams/goals were, what our values were, how we wanted to spend money, etc... My point in sharing that is that moving in isn't required to find all those things out, communication is.

TL;DR version: communicate more during dating, and don't drag on the dating period for years and years.


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

JJG said:


> I agree that men can become 'nonchalant' about marriage if you dont go into the arrangement 'on the same page'. But i 100% think you should always live together before marriage. Even if you get engaged then live together.
> 
> This is the rest of your life you are dealing with! Would you buy a car without taking it for a test drive?


But you don't get to test drive it for years. I think dating is essentially the intial test drive. Once you start taking the car on a regular basis (aka living together) it's time to sign some papers and make your committment offical. You shouldn't be able to say, well I drove it every day for months, or years, and the darn thing just doesn't work the same anymore - take it back. 

Granted you can try to sell it, etc. but you get the idea.


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

ShawnD said:


> People who are a bit more traditional will hang on even though the marriage is clearly a lost cause. My gf's parents are extremely religious, and their marriage has been total garbage since the beginning. Despite that, they've been married for something like 27 years. The chance of them getting divorced is close to 0%.


It could just be that people who live togther first won't put up with a 'bad' marriage. It would be interesting to do a quality of marriage statistic between the two groups.


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

Browncoat said:


> There is value in just reducing time you spend dating a particular person, and spending that time really evaluating who they are as a person. If they are a poor match better find out soon, ditch them and move on. The longer the relationship lasts, the harder it is to move on if that person isn't marriage material for you (for a lot of reasons). One person in the article even mentioned this: that they got married because they had dated a long time and they were in their 30's (not exactly a great reason for marriage imo).


I agree. Although there were things I didn't think were a problem and they became a problem later. And other things I thought were improtant turned out not to be as important.

But those issues were compounded by living with him before getting married (I can't say that for sure since there's no way for me to re-live the situation without living together first). I moved and felt trapped; just like the article says. Had we not been living together I would have ended it. Which is interesting since I love him more now then I ever have. 



Browncoat said:


> Moving in together delays marriage, and imo doesn't promote clear thinking as to whether or not the person is a good life partner match.


I don't think it does either. If you have the basics covered and think you both agree on the important issues then you either committ or leave. But if you feel the need to continually test-drive it for months, even years, it just creates more problems then it solves.


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## ShawnD (Apr 2, 2012)

Blanca said:


> It could just be that people who live togther first won't put up with a 'bad' marriage. It would be interesting to do a quality of marriage statistic between the two groups.


Even that statistic would be pretty meaningless. Humans are retarded and they don't know what they want. How many times have you heard women in abusive relationships say they love their abusive boyfriend/husband? Pretty much all of them. If they didn't, they would have left a long time ago. The ones that leave always seem to come back. 
"I had to go back because I miss that *thump* sound when he slams my head against the coffee table!"









Now compare that to your own relationship history. I've never been abusive or controlling. Where does that lead? I've been dumped every time. They just stopped loving me. Maybe they would have stayed longer if I beat them within an inch of their life every now and then.

What would the happiness stats say about these two extremes? The men in women who put up with abusive relationships would claim to have a good relationship. The ones getting ready to dump me would claim they have a terrible relationship. Conclusion: beating the hell out of people makes them happy.


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## JJG (Mar 9, 2011)

Wow, Im rather surprised that Im in the minority on this one. All of my friends have been with their men for years and no one is seriously considering getting married yet. Just me, and i only started thinking about it when i turned 25. Wouldn't have even considered it before then!

Hmmm I didnt even consider it as strange


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

Living together should be a requirement prior to marriage.

How many roomates have you had where they were the best of friends but they didn't clean, mad a mess all the time, took up all your space, were disgusting at home (pass gas, smell like an open garbage dump)...

And the list could go on and on and on. Oh, it's cute or he/she will eventually grow out of it. Here's a hint, they almost never grow out of it.

Oh, the magic castle will be waiting for me, alot of the time it's a trailer park instead once you show up there princess or prince.

For those with religious beliefs then I don't fault them because that's what they believe in. For others, live with them and see if you can make it a year without wanting to throw yourself off the golden gate bridge. If you can't even last a year what makes you think signing a piece of paper is gonna make you last 40-50 years unless you're gonna tell me it's some magically enchanted paper that was blessed by a fairy.


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## RelationshipAdviceHelp (Apr 12, 2012)

If you can live together for years, even have kids without getting married, then what's the point in marriage?

Marriage used to include vows that say "till death do we part", some still do. Yet no one gives that much thought when they want out.

I am told (tongue in cheek here) that the "white" dress even used to mean something. Today we see white dresses with pronounced baby bumps.

Define what marriage means to you and perhaps you'll have an idea whether or not you should live together first.

Personally I don't see the "test drive" of living together as resulting in more successful marriages or less failed ones; nothing scientific, just my personal observation.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

cheatinghubby said:


> Living together should be a requirement prior to marriage.
> 
> How many roomates have you had where they were the best of friends but they didn't clean, mad a mess all the time, took up all your space, were disgusting at home (pass gas, smell like an open garbage dump)...
> 
> ...


I'll stand by what I said, you can find out all that stuff while dating. We knew how we kept our house because I visited her place and she mine a lot while we dated. She may have picked up an extra amount at first, but trust me after 6 months no way she's going to put on appearances when I could be dropping by at random times.

After a few months of dating we would just do stuff together during the weekends a lot, which meant just living life together only no sleeping together. At the end of the night I would drive her home and say good night, or we'd say goodbyes at her house and I'd drive home alone. Trust me dating like that for a number of months and you'll get to know about all the issues you brought up.

After work lots of times I would pick her up and we'd go to her place or mine and cook/clean up together. So we got to see all aspects of who they were in the home, then we'd go to our separate homes.

You don't need to live together to learn about the person you are dating... you just don't. We learned everything about each other over that year dating.

Now the best part about living separately it gave us time to honestly and objectively think about the other. Each night that I drove home from seeing her, and while I would get ready for bed I could be thinking about her. Not thinking about getting into her pants, but thinking about who she was and what it was that I loved about her... and what concerned me about her. She would be doing the same. When we got back together we would have loads to talk about, not only because we still had separate lives, but because we had those things that came to mind while apart.


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## occasionallybaffled (Apr 12, 2012)

I respectfully disagree. Divorce rates were already high before couples (living together prior to marriage) became popular. I do agree that complacency/postponement of marriage can take place.

I think it's a great idea if the couple can be honest with themselves. It allows you to see their faults and strengths. Most of us are creatures of habit at home. After a day at work, we come home and unwind. We relax and fall into our own casual routines. If you can function together in a home environment and be responsible for everything that goes with it... you are better prepared. 

I see post on TAM with one spouse who feels they do all the work around the home or they loathe managing all the finances and resent their partner. [I haven't read all their posts or know their complete background] But it seems that if they had lived together prior... they might have seen these tendencies. If someone lived with me and saw I never took the initiative to do laundry/clean the bathroom/pay bills on time/keep refrigerator stocked, etc... I doubt they would want to pursue a long term relationship/marriage. 

{Note: Above was purely an example, I do maintain my residence :smthumbup: }


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## CLucas976 (Jun 27, 2010)

I think it's important. 

When I met hubs he lived with his parents, his room was spotless, maintained, and now that he's back there it is now too. What I didn't know was that mom did his laundry, he only did housework for his parents, and they bought and picked out all his clothes, cars, etc. he had a good stable job, made his own money, it seemed great.

Fast forward a few years, I'm making a list of house work to do while the video game character is "skilling," cleaning mold off my walls and out of my carpet, grocery shopping alone, managing all the bills myself, organizing myself, routine cleaning myself, and getting in fights over taking out the garbage and the dog. I was making sure the cars were getting fixed, things were being maintained and ended up running on over load, to the point where it would have made me cry to see him wash the dishes.

I realize now, that his dad waking him up for work, telling him when money was due, maintaining his cars, etc completely made it so that these typical things were a foreign concept to him. Where as my upbringing, it was just expected that I am an adult, can take care of kids, bills, cars, housework etc. because that's what family members do.

I'm not saying it stopped me from loving the guy, supporting him, and trying to push him to be everything he wanted to be. Or that our 6yrs together didn't make it harder to leave, i just think that first appearances can be decieving. I would have been blind sided if we had never lived together and then married, because i wouldn't have known that these weren't things he himself took care of.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Clucas looks like lesson learned by you us: make sure your SO has moved out and is on their own. Really not bad advice.


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## CLucas976 (Jun 27, 2010)

well, being 18 and freshly out of highschool, finding someone to those standards in my age group at the time wasn't really likely


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

For me it was vital because I'm highly introverted and I don't play well with others. I need lots of space and I'm a neat freak. Needy men who are messy should not apply.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

CLucas976 said:


> well, being 18 and freshly out of highschool, finding someone to those standards in my age group at the time wasn't really likely


You got me there, I guess in my case we were both college grads.

Still his demonstrating that he can manage to live alone before taking on the extra responsibilities of a wife (and maybe family) isn't a bad thing.

Same goes for a woman, it's hard enough to take care of your own flat, let alone a house for a couple (and again possibly kids).


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

It is different if people live together while _engaged and actively planning for marriage._ My husband made it clear to me that he wasn't going to live with a woman who he wasn't going to marry. We were engaged within two months of moving in together.

It all depends on the couple's attitude toward cohabitation. If it is just about testing the waters with no real commitment, then I agree that living together before marriage does not bode well for the couple. 

We had a very tough engagement due to employment loss, money troubles and my controlling parents. Those trials strengthened our relationship because we learned that marriage will not always be easy.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

FirstYearDown said:


> It is different if people live together while _engaged and actively planning for marriage._


I had a limit on how long I'd cohabitate as well. While we weren't engaged when I moved in, at some point I believed we should get married or part ways. I had no qualms moving out if he didn't want the same.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Yeah cohabitation while engaged (w/ a definite date) is in a different category altogether. Not saying I'd promote that, but it's a whole different thing.


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

What happens if you want to live with someone to get a feel for how they will be as a marriage partner and they don't want to because its against what they believe? Do you write them off even if you have strong feelings for them?


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

TBT said:


> What happens if you want to live with someone to get a feel for how they will be as a marriage partner and they don't want to because its against what they believe? Do you write them off even if you have strong feelings for them?


Heavens no. Stay with her if you love her... it's not that easy to find someone you really love and who loves you back.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> Women are more likely to view cohabitation as a step toward marriage, while men are more likely to see it as a way to test a relationship or postpone commitment, and this gender asymmetry is associated with negative interactions and lower levels of commitment even after the relationship progresses to marriage. One thing men and women do agree on, however, is that their standards for a live-in partner are lower than they are for a spouse.


 I agree very much with this part . 

Because of my lousy home life, I was out of there at 18...on my own... lived in a Camper in someone's back yard for a summer.... then his family took me in -my room was 2 doors down from his upstairs. Then we moved in together yrs later & immediately planned our big wedding - walked down the aisle 8 months later. Not exactly the normal route to getting married... but It all worked out very nicely. 

Sometimes there are strange circumstances that lead us in directions we never thought. I wouldn't want any of my children to be in the situation I was in, but I am thankful his family thought enough of me to offer what they did .... I know they did it for their son. And it helped us save $$ for our future. 

Obviosuly we knew each other inside out -after living so close together....my husband really wanted to get married, time for real sex.... until our wedding night, all he knew was hand jobs. So we did have something "new" to experience after the vows.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

That's one of the larger issues SA imo. I've seen it far too often, men get what they want (sex) and a pseudo-wife w/o the commitment, so to them this is just great... why rock the boat. It's the women prodding the men into getting married almost against their wishes. So rather than the men acting like... well men and proposing because they love their SO so much, it ends up being a proposal based on guilt trip. I'm sure it doesn't always work like that, but that's the way I've seen it work just about every time (aside from them breaking up and there's a big mess).

Then there's the bit in the article about folks spending all that money furnishing an apartment and in the end if it falls through then you have a real mess since one of them can be left with the lion's share of the bill (rather than with marriage at least there's a process for dividing assets/debts).

To be totally honest, I think the women really short change themselves with cohabitation... but maybe others will see it another way. They don't get men who pursue them for marriage like he would if they weren't living together. They have a greater chance of getting pregnant since they sleep in the same bed every night, and if the relationship falls apart they don't even get child support in some states. It's a mess.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

We moved in together when I was 5 weeks pregnant. We'd been together 3 months  hahaha

But I knew I would marry him before I knew his name. :rofl:

In all seriousness, we lived together and didn't ever want to get married. We got papers done up by a lawyer for power of attorney (financial and medical), living wills and trusts, and wrote wills. We changed our beneficiaries to be each other on our life insurance policies. Everything was notarized and we were "married".

We just decided one day to get married. No fancy proposal or rings (20 dollar silver bands that have been upgraded) and announced our engagement April 1, 2009...got married June 20 that year, on the beach, with family around us 

I think because we put things into turbo mode after getting pregnant, it worked out perfectly for us. Yes, we had issues last summer and I think that stemmed from NOT dating long enough for getting so serious. But we're golden now  

I was never one for tradition


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Yeah not saying it can't work out if folks move in together, just think it creates more problems and potentially leaves folks in the lurch (financially or otherwise). I'm glad it worked out for you two SA and that_girl... truly am. 

It's too easy to just slip into, and before you know it years can go by and you've not really taken time to decide if the person you live with is really just a short term relationship or the real deal. Again just based on what I've seen.

I guess I like men to act like men and not drag their feet and act like schleps, which I think happens all too often with cohabitation. I also think it doesn't encourage folks to take a hard look at the person they are dating, it doesn't give that time away to miss them and consider them more fully.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I've gotten beat up for saying this on here, but I feel any woman who sleeps with a man ,then moves in with him.. is likely tampering with her own dreams......IF she deeply wants to get married -the whole "family" package. 

Cause he is getting his cake and eating it too....what really is the incentive for the man... There was a thread like this in the Men's Clubhouse not too long ago. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/38499-male-incentive-marriage.html

One poster here, I think it was DEAN... his GF would never spend the night with him, she would leave, that was her rule, she wanted it to be "special" .... he got tired of this... and well... knew the only way he was going to get her in the morning, to wake up to this lovely creature was... to marry her. And he WANTED that... very badly....so that's what he did! 

Yeah.. .women need to make men wait for something. That is my opionion. Don't give it all . 

The last Bachelor show... that beautiful blonde, she wanted nothing more than to get married... her dream...but she moved in with her boyfriend, she was in love...but he won't marry her, she has been with him for years, she went on the Bachelor just to see if she could fall in love with someone else--because she deeply wants marriage. She realized she still loved him, she cried & cried cause she knows she was going home to an empty dream, he won't marry her. 

Very Sad.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

I totally agree with you SA. I've seen that myself, and frankly experienced it myself.

I was with my college GF for almost 3 years, and we were sexually active most of that time. We practically lived together (though we were in the dorms so technically we lived apart). We talked about marriage but between waiting for graduation and frankly not having a reason to marry her I felt no reason to hurry.

She went away for a summer to Japan, and while she was a away I finally felt like I could have a clear head to think about what it was that we both wanted in life. It was then that I realized that she didn't want kids at all. We wrote back and forth and she told me that she might have a kid to make me happy, but basically it would be mine to raise. She wanted to dedicate her life to the Japanese history and travel around Asia.

I wanted the more typical house in the burbs in the US, have multiple kids and raise them. Our futures had nothing in common, someone would have to give up their dream. The idea of travelling around Asia to follow her dream while being effectively a single parent of a child my wife doesn't even want, just seemed so dark and depressing. My dream would be the same for her, being stuck in suburbia when Asia awaited many thousands of miles away so far out of reach.

I broke up with her immediately when she returned (I wanted to tell to her face, since doing it by mail is just terribly cold).

A couple of years later I met my wife. We dated about a year with no sex and no living together at all. Trust me I was motivated, but cautious... I wanted to make sure she was a great fit, that we truly had common goals. So every night driving home from her house I had time to think about her, and what her dreams were (already knowing my dreams). So whenever I saw something that concerned me we talked about it... it was really great. One morning I woke up, and even though we had been discussing marriage, I just realized... today is THE day. So while she was away at ballet class (a hobby of hers), I went out and bought the rings and planned a picnic on a hill overlooking the area we lived in. I proposed to her and you know much of the rest. 

This is why I've been on my soap box railing against cohabitation. I think that living apart helps clear the mind so that you aren't so close all the time that you can't really think about the future (which is what happened with my college GF all those years). It helps a man hunger for marriage, because once you know this is the person you want to be with... you don't want to wait to propose and marry her. 

Frankly I think most women want (and deserve) to be desired and sought after, they don't want to badger the "love of their life" into getting off his bum and pop the question.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I would never live with someone I was just dating. I dated a man for 3 years and wouldn't move in unless at LEAST being engaged and a date set.

I was a single mom for 7 years. 

Hubs and I just had special circumstances with me getting pregnant so early. Was it planned? Kinda. I told him I had ovulated that morning and he didn't care. So, he could hardly say I did that on purpose. It was alllll him 

But to play house? no way.

I remember picking up my car from Hubs one day (he was my service writer/mechanic) and I told my friend..."Something is going to happen with that man...and it will be fast and fierce, but I just KNOW it's going to happen. Ima marry that man." She laughed and told me to shut up because she knew I never wanted to get married :rofl:

I didn't know his last name and we'd not been out at that point  I just knew. I was drawn to him....which was rare for me.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

However, my goal was NOT marriage. I had seen too many ****ed up marriages. My parents' and Hubs' parents included.

We were married in our hearts and legally responsible for the other...and that was good enough for us until that day we had a very rational discussion about marriage. No romance in that conversation. Love is one thing, marriage is another.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Just to add, i am not one to marry someone just because I was pregnant. I can commit to a child. I wasn't sure I could commit to a man, which is why I didn't marry my older daughter's father. I moved in with him to escape my mother's house ( I was 23 and miserable after being on my own for 4 years and moving home to mom's when i got pregnant...bless her) but he and I were more like roommates...who hated each other, but loved our kid.

We all make mistakes. Which is why I learned from that big one and didn't live with anyone else until I met Hubs. i had to keep a stable life for my daughter. that meant no men around her. Ever.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

that_girl said:


> However, my goal was NOT marriage. I had seen too many ****ed up marriages. My parents' and Hubs' parents included.
> 
> *We were married in our hearts and legally responsible for the other...*and that was good enough for us until that day we had a very rational discussion about marriage. No romance in that conversation. Love is one thing, marriage is another.


:iagree:

Although we were young when we moved in together, we knew it was about "him and I" ...the intention/goal wasn't marriage. We'd already been dating, this wasn't playing house. The intention was him and I sharing our lives. Anyway I'm sure some are sick of hearing my view on this by now. I think everyone is different. If it feels right, it feels right. Just don't lose your head along the way. My 0.02 cents.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

My cousin is 25 and she moves in with every boyfriend who buys her a meal and winks at her.

It's sad, really...because she doesn't understand why her life is the way it is.

Her parents were married 30 years before my aunt's passing 4 years ago...so she had a great relationship and upbringing to learn from ...just sad.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Yeah my wife wasn't really concerned with getting married per se. She was at a place in her life where she was happy to be single if that's how it worked out (she was in her mid twenties when I met her).

I lived up in a broken family all my life, but somehow I still wanted to be married (call me a hopeless romantic). To be honest, my first memory was my dad walking out on my mom (I was 4). They spent years and years actively fighting in the courts over everything. They were at odds non stop growing up too. Heck to this day I don't even like to mention the other parent when I'm around one... I've had to instruct the kids not to bring up grandma when around my dad (good times).

So yeah I didn't exactly have much to model marriage on, I just knew what I wanted.

Oh and that_girl don't worry I'm not judgmental. If you and you're hubby are happy I'm happy for ya both!


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

At 44 years old, I'm not in any hurry to get married again. The topic did come up with my GF a few times, not about US getting married, but how we felt about that in general. And whether I'd wear a wedding ring again... Hmmm...

Anyway, since I'm not going to be having kids, not sure that getting married is such a huge priority. Rather just move in together. If it was going to happen, I'd rather it was something low key, like a quickie Vegas marriage.

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I've gotten beat up for saying this on here, but I feel any woman who sleeps with a man ,then moves in with him.. is likely tampering with her own dreams......IF she deeply wants to get married -the whole "family" package.
> 
> Cause he is getting his cake and eating it too....what really is the incentive for the man... There was a thread like this in the Men's Clubhouse not too long ago. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/38499-male-incentive-marriage.html
> 
> ...


I remember I mentioned a friend in that thread who asked me why her boyfriend hadn't proposed and they've been together for years and I'd said I probably wasn't the right person to ask about such matters .......anyway......he proposed, without her giving an ultimatum. So they are getting married later this year.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Browncoat said:


> .
> 
> I lived up in a broken family all my life, but somehow I still wanted to be married (call me a hopeless romantic). To be honest, my first memory was my dad walking out on my mom (I was 4). They spent years and years actively fighting in the courts over everything. They were at odds non stop growing up too. Heck to this day I don't even like to mention the other parent when I'm around one... I've had to instruct the kids not to bring up grandma when around my dad (good times).
> 
> So yeah I didn't exactly have much to model marriage on, I just knew what I wanted.


Browncoat... you sound so much like me! I also had a lousy upbringing, broken home. But despite that, it never soured me on my hopes & dreams, they were always strong... 

I ALWAYS knew what I wanted, from a very young age...to find my soul mate, get married & have the family I didn't have ....I am also a Hopeless Romantic, did a thread on that too ! .... There is even a test on there - I wonder what your score is ? 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...you-enjoy-sappy-movies-your-wife-gag-run.html

I am bombarding you with my threads tonight -you keep saying something that relates, I can't help myself !


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## JJG (Mar 9, 2011)

I agree that before moving in together it is best to have a set time frame that (if all goes well) you want to get married. In fact, thats what brought me to this site. We had reached the time frame set and there was no propsal, so I was worried that by BF had become complacent as others on this thread describe.

I also agree thatmoving in with someone you are just dating and arent thinking of marrying is a ridiculous idea - i have never heard of anyone doing that . . . . 

However, I have to disagree with people who say that you should withold things in order to get the propsal eg sex, sleep overs etc. In my opinion THAT is forcing someone to marry you.

Thats just me.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I'm developing the opinion that there is little or no value in marriage; that the ideal arrangement would be to live together. The only thing a marriage has done for me was to relieve me of half of my worldly wealth and to make it financially disadvantageous to get rid of a nonperforming partner. If my partner knew that I could pack a bag and split at will, she might actually make an effort to persuade me not to. Holiday Inn treats their guests better than the county jail.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

I could be wrong, but can't common law marriages result in splitting all assets?


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

I could never wait until marriage to be intimate with a man. I would need to make sure we are compatible in bed before making such a huge commitment. Sex is too important for me to take that risk. A divorce is much less painful than just a break-up if the couple is just dating. 

Of course, I agree that if a woman wants a relationship she should hold off on sex to make sure that the man in on the same page. Too many women allow themselves to be FWB in the hopes that the man will "come around" one day. They end up getting badly hurt when the man finally says he is not in love like they are.

I also think that if a woman wants to get married, she should never give a man a child before she is his Mrs. There are a few men want to be husbands and a child is even more of an incentive to marry. However, I see far more men who are content to live with their kid's mothers for DECADES without marriage. 

One of my cousins has two kids for her common law partner and they have been together for more than ten years. She is suffering from depression because the man just won't marry her. My cousin gave too much without having standards and she should have waited until marriage to have the children if matrimony was what she wanted. At the very least, it would have made more sense to wait until the guy proposed to have the second child.

I did not wait until marriage for sex and living together. My husband and I share the same views on premarital sex-it is natural, necessary and fun. What happens if one waits until marriage and then finds that her husband is sexually inept or they are not compatible in bed? Not everybody is willing to make changes, compromise or learn when it comes to sex. 

My parents lived together for a year before marriage and nearly 40 years later, they are still a couple. Premarital sex has nothing to do with how successful a marriage will be. I know many long term couples who shacked up and made love long before they were married.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

FirstYearDown said:


> Premarital sex has nothing to do with how successful a marriage will be.


We are getting a bit off track because cohabitation is a different (but related) issue to premarital sex. That is you can have premarital sex w/o cohabitation (the opposite isn't likely to occur).

I know what you are saying, there are many examples where it worked out. I respectfully disagree though that it has *nothing* to do with success in marriage.

In my case my wife and I like wound't have married had we had premarital sex. Not sure where I discussed this recently, but given that it took my wife a couple of years to get to the point where penetration wasn't extremely painful I likely would have broken off the relationship since we were only GF/BF at the time. Once we were married I was committed to her, big difference.

She's a great wife and mother, and I would have missed out on that and my 4 wonderful children if we had tried to have premarital sex.


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## ShawnD (Apr 2, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I've gotten beat up for saying this on here, but I feel any woman who sleeps with a man ,then moves in with him.. is likely tampering with her own dreams......IF she deeply wants to get married -the whole "family" package.


Refusing to put out is an extremely bad idea. The infatuation stage of a relationship can last as long as 2 years. After 2 years, you might find that this person is not really that special. What you're proposing would mean getting married during the infatuation stage then very likely getting divorced within a couple years.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

And yet it doesn't seem to have mattered in the outcomes here either way. So there you have it.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Browncoat said:


> I could be wrong, but can't common law marriages result in splitting all assets?


Only 12 states in the United States even recognize common law marriage anymore. Even in those, it's insufficient to just live together or even have kids. You have to purport to others to actually be husband and wife. 

What advantages are there for a man to be married as opposed to living with a committed, faithful woman? Are these advantages great enough to warrant an immediate loss of half of his present and future assets?


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## JJG (Mar 9, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> What advantages are there for a man to be married as opposed to living with a committed, faithful woman? Are these advantages great enough to warrant an immediate loss of half of his present and future assets?


Hmmm lets not forget that these days men are not the main breadwinners they once were and us gals have started doing quite well for ourselves and (shock) taking care of ourselves!

Just sayin'


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

JJG said:


> Hmmm lets not forget that these days men are not the main breadwinners they once were and us gals have started doing quite well for ourselves and (shock) taking care of ourselves!
> 
> Just sayin'


I've heard of these female primary breadwinners of which you speak. Like unicorns, they have never existed in my reality. Still, my question remains....what are the advantages for guy? If I could actually find a higher earning female willing to merge finances, there's no law requiring us to marry in order to do so.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I know Hubs couldn't have the house we have if he was single. 

I pay for all the household things while he pays mortgage and car insurance. It's equal. And we now make equal pay.

Incentive for marriage? I don't know. I was financially stable as a single woman. I was even raising my child as a single mom. Didn't need any help with that. Hubs had a roommate and liked how stable I was. Although, he is a great provider. 

In fact, there's really no tax incentive! :rofl: If we were single, i would have gotten back over 4,000!! But as a married couple, we ended up owing.

Thanks, Uncle Sam!


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

American wives statistically make 80% of all discretionary spending decisions, so I'd have to find one that makes 400% of my salary even to reach economic parity. A ring and a ceremony instantly relieves me of 50% of all I have or will have. In my state, it instantly makes me financially liable for any child she produces, regardless of who fathers the child. It makes me responsible for any credit obligation she enters into. If I married some ridiculously wealthy woman, I suppose there is a chance I might actually gain something. For the rest of us, it's pretty much a lopsided proposition.


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## Accipiter777 (Jul 22, 2011)

My wife and I moved in together in '88, had a rip-roar life till we settled down in 97 and got married, bought a house, had a child. now at age 40+ for both of us, we have date nights, we get away for the weekends (just the two of us). Sex life of about 3X a week. When I asked her to marry me, she said yes, we both knew and accepted each others flaws... there was no "She changed" or "He changed". no bait n switch... most if not all out classmate/friends are in their second marriage or divorced. guess we see this topic different.


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## Accipiter777 (Jul 22, 2011)

that_girl said:


> I know Hubs couldn't have the house we have if he was single.
> 
> I pay for all the household things while he pays mortgage and car insurance. It's equal. And we now make equal pay.
> 
> ...



:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## lovinmyhubby223 (Jan 31, 2012)

I have read lots of statistics on this subject and I keep running into things like this;

“_The study found those who were engaged and living together before the wedding were about as likely to have marriages that lasted 15 years as couples who hadn't lived together_.”

And this;

“_But what about the couples who were living together but weren't engaged? The new study found marriage was less likely to survive to the 10- and 15-year mark among couples who weren't engaged when they lived together – findings similar to earlier research_.”

And this;

“_The study also discovered that nearly half of all first marriages end in divorce within 20 years. Regardless of cohabitation”_

Since when is the success of a marriage measured in years? I have never heard a vow that states “till the 15 or 20 year mark”. 

If the statistics listed are anything to go by then IMO all of these marriages failed, cohabitates and non-cohabitates alike. Just because you choose not to live together before marriage doesn’t guarantee that you won’t get divorced. You may not get divorced as soon as those who did live together before marriage according to studies, but you may still get divorced.

I personally believe that it is each person’s personal values on marriage, their values as a couple with regard to marriage, their family marital history and other intrinsic/systematic differences that influences the likelihood of divorce.

I personally have seen successful marriages from both sides of the cohabitation fence and failed marriages from both sides.

Communication is the key. Open, honest communication, not only with yourself but with your partner as well. Plus the flexibility to change along with your partner as time goes by and the ability to adjust to changes within the marriage, ie; children, job loss, relocation, etc.


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## ShawnD (Apr 2, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> American wives statistically make 80% of all discretionary spending decisions, so I'd have to find one that makes 400% of my salary even to reach economic parity. A ring and a ceremony instantly relieves me of 50% of all I have or will have. In my state, it instantly makes me financially liable for any child she produces, regardless of who fathers the child. *It makes me responsible for any credit obligation she enters into*. If I married some ridiculously wealthy woman, I suppose there is a chance I might actually gain something. For the rest of us, it's pretty much a lopsided proposition.


This is one of the reasons I am never getting married. It actually boils down to simple math. You might even remember doing this exact calculation in grade 10 or 11. 

If the chance of A failing is 10% and the chance of B failing is 10%, what is the probability of both failing at the same time?
0.1^2 = 0.01
That's a 1% failure rate.

Now suppose you merge the two together and the two must work as a team. If either A or B fails, the entire system fails. What is the probability of failure?
1 - (0.9^2) = 0.19
That's a 19% failure rate.

Joining two systems together like that immediately makes it 19x more likely to fail. This is why you as an individual get 90% in all of your class assignments, but group projects involving 4 or 5 people always end with crap results. This is loosely related to the term "design by commitee" where a project going in multiple directions at one time ends up going nowhere.
My gf and I get around this by staying as separate as possible. My money is mine, hers is hers. I pay some bills, she pays some bills. She can use my second car, but the car still has my name on the title and it's registered to me. If either of us goes insane and starts spending everything, we can make a clean break with minimal damage.


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

ShawnD said:


> This is one of the reasons I am never getting married. It actually boils down to simple math.


It would be interesting to know what the statistic of failed relationships are compared to the statistic of failed marriages. Statistically speaking you'd probably be more likely to stay in a marriage then in a relationship.


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## ShawnD (Apr 2, 2012)

Blanca said:


> It would be interesting to know what the statistic of failed relationships are compared to the statistic of failed marriages. Statistically speaking you'd probably be more likely to stay in a marriage then in a relationship.


I guess that's true. Statistically >99% of relationships fail. Out of all the people I've dated, only 1 is still around.

The only sure bet is to not rely on anyone. This forum is filled with people saying "my husband is a retard" or "my wife wants us to die homeless and bankrupt." 
Standing alone seems to work pretty good. At least bankruptcy would be my own fault and the only retard to worry about is me.


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

ShawnD said:


> I guess that's true. Statistically >99% of relationships fail. Out of all the people I've dated, only 1 is still around.
> 
> The only sure bet is to not rely on anyone. This forum is filled with people saying "my husband is a retard" or "my wife wants us to die homeless and bankrupt."
> Standing alone seems to work pretty good. At least bankruptcy would be my own fault and the only retard to worry about is me.


Sure but you can achieve that same result with good boundaries. If you have good boundaries then you can stand alone but still have the comfort of a partner.


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