# A little rethinking after an theft altercation.



## bobsmith (Oct 15, 2012)

I know there are a few guys here like me, but I realize not many. I went into a liquor store this eve and as I am walking in, I see one of the employees confronting two black dudes trying to steal stuff. I immediately back him up, though I have to admit I was still trying to figure out wtf was even going on. I heard him say "put it back", and I know the employee so....

Anyway, as some men might do, I am combing my thoughts in how I could have improved this encounter. The two black dudes were in long black coats, I felt confident one of them had a gun because they seemed seasoned at this, and of COURSE I was in gym gear and didn't have mine! WTF!!! I followed the dudes out of the store but did not confront them. We did not know if they had anything left on them or not. Either way, I am still pissed. I wanted to ruffle their feathers in the store, but I realized as soon as I doze one of them, huge dollars in liquor and glass was going to be everywhere. I guess I did not want to engage, but I fear I might be getting weak. 

Normally I would have dealt with this differently, but I think I was waiting for them to get more physical. I knew there were no less than 15 cameras in that store. They never solve crimes, but if I jump one, I am sure to go to jail.

We now live in a society that reward thugs, and screws over people for standing up. Regardless, I can't walk away. This deal pissed me off. I am having the typical "hind sight" thoughts in my head. I think I am most pissed at myself for not having my side arm, that is ALWAYS with me. I literally instinctively reached for it, and quickly realized how screwed I was. I think one of the thugs realized this and may have thought I was packing. I have had to fake it before.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

you looking to get shot? because that is how guys get shot!

if i were armed, had the drop on them, AND it looked like they were about to kill the employee...i might get involved. might.

but there are a lot of stories where the person getting beaten up is actually the bad guy. maybe it was a drug deal gone bad?

call the cops next time


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

bobsmith said:


> I know there are a few guys here like me, but I realize not many. I went into a liquor store this eve and as I am walking in, I see one of the employees confronting two black dudes trying to steal stuff. I immediately back him up, though I have to admit I was still trying to figure out wtf was even going on. I heard him say "put it back", and I know the employee so....
> 
> Anyway, as some men might do, I am combing my thoughts in how I could have improved this encounter. The two black dudes were in long black coats, I felt confident one of them had a gun because they seemed seasoned at this, and of COURSE I was in gym gear and didn't have mine! WTF!!! I followed the dudes out of the store but did not confront them. We did not know if they had anything left on them or not. Either way, I am still pissed. I wanted to ruffle their feathers in the store, but I realized as soon as I doze one of them, huge dollars in liquor and glass was going to be everywhere. I guess I did not want to engage, but I fear I might be getting weak.
> 
> ...


You're best bet, in that situation is to look around for any parked cars and take a pic of all the plates.

It is unfortunate the damage the CRT crowd is doing to society. At some point, we will give up on orderly justice and take matters into our hands right on the street. Which is what the hard left wants, so they can impose their desired order.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Liquor stores are going to have to keep their wares in a backroom and have everything prepaid before the employee can access it.

A great way to change the culture, to track people, to make it necessary for survival. That might be why the CRT is promoting impossible levels to support shoplifting.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Talker67 said:


> you looking to get shot? because that is how guys get shot!
> 
> if i were armed, had the drop on them, AND it looked like they were about to kill the employee...i might get involved. might.
> 
> ...


The product is insured, so there is no reason to lose a life over the theft of product.


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## Dillinger (12 mo ago)

Let's say you had your gun on you. What is a better ending to that story?


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## Cooper (Apr 18, 2008)

As I have become older (luckily) a situation like that would trigger the thought "is it worth dying over?" $50 dollars worth of merchendise from a store? Nope. Protecting a person's life? Yes.


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

No offense, but you sound like you wake up daily hoping for the hero moment. 

You walked into a situation unsure of what is happening. Then you follow two potential shoplifters out the door who you believe were armed, you arent, and you are expecting things to get physical?????

If you were armed, what would you have done? If you shot one or both and it turned out they didn't take anything. You would be facing murder charges if one or both died. Or attempted murder for one or both. On top of civil lawsuits, lawyer fees, and fines. It would be even worse if you hit a bystander 

Your best bet would of been to just call the police and assist the clerk if it got physical. I understand your position on lowlifes and crooks. But you have to use some common sense..... You seriously lucked out that day by not being armed.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

bobsmith said:


> I know there are a few guys here like me, but I realize not many. I went into a liquor store this eve and as I am walking in, I see one of the employees confronting two black dudes trying to steal stuff. I immediately back him up, though I have to admit I was still trying to figure out wtf was even going on. I heard him say "put it back", and I know the employee so....
> 
> Anyway, as some men might do, I am combing my thoughts in how I could have improved this encounter. The two black dudes were in long black coats, I felt confident one of them had a gun because they seemed seasoned at this, and of COURSE I was in gym gear and didn't have mine! WTF!!! I followed the dudes out of the store but did not confront them. We did not know if they had anything left on them or not. Either way, I am still pissed. I wanted to ruffle their feathers in the store, but I realized as soon as I doze one of them, huge dollars in liquor and glass was going to be everywhere. I guess I did not want to engage, but I fear I might be getting weak.
> 
> ...


I get it. The biggest criminals are those we hired to uphold laws, who are purposefully not doing their jobs and actually "legalizing" criminals while turning law abiding citizens into victims or criminalizing defense.

I'm not carrying most times these days but I insist Mrs. C does.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

bobsmith said:


> I know there are a few guys here like me, but I realize not many. I went into a liquor store this eve and as I am walking in, I see one of the employees confronting two black dudes trying to steal stuff. I immediately back him up, though I have to admit I was still trying to figure out wtf was even going on. I heard him say "put it back", and I know the employee so....
> 
> Anyway, as some men might do, I am combing my thoughts in how I could have improved this encounter. The two black dudes were in long black coats, I felt confident one of them had a gun because they seemed seasoned at this, and of COURSE I was in gym gear and didn't have mine! WTF!!! I followed the dudes out of the store but did not confront them. We did not know if they had anything left on them or not. Either way, I am still pissed. I wanted to ruffle their feathers in the store, but I realized as soon as I doze one of them, huge dollars in liquor and glass was going to be everywhere. I guess I did not want to engage, but I fear I might be getting weak.
> 
> ...


You didn't get shot, they didn't get shot, the shop keeper didn't get shot. Surely the best result.
It's hardly worth anyone dying over a few bottles of booze.


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

Diana7 said:


> You didn't get shot, they didn't get shot, the shop keeper didn't get shot. Surely the best result.
> It's hardly worth anyone dying over a few bottles of booze.


Not that it really matters. But in the end, if he opened fire. He would have cost the store far more money than a few bottles of booze. Lost revenue from the store being closed, increased insurance costs, loss of business from people being afraid to go there. And the booze in question would have been submitted as evidence and never returned to be sold.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

What's the reasonable thing to do here? 

Get license plates. Offer your services as a witness in a court proceeding, if it ever goes there. Be alert, mindful, and in control. Don't turn this into some kind of internal dialog for how you need to become the next KickAss. 

I was held up at gunpoint 3 times in the late 80's as a night shift convenience store clerk. The last thing I would have wanted was for a gunfight to erupt in my store. But I did get to testify in open court to put one of them behind bars, and that was satisfying.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Just go along with it and no one gets hurt.

It's an interesting philosophy and has been adopted by many.

From a very young age, I saw those behaving badly increase their bad behavior until someone stopped them.

Police are clean up at best and are almost never in a position to defend anyone besides themselves.

I understand going along to not get hurt too bad.

I also understand OP's POV.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

bobsmith said:


> I know there are a few guys here like me, but I realize not many. I went into a liquor store this eve and as I am walking in, I see one of the employees confronting two black dudes trying to steal stuff. I immediately back him up, though I have to admit I was still trying to figure out wtf was even going on. I heard him say "put it back", and I know the employee so....
> 
> Anyway, as some men might do, I am combing my thoughts in how I could have improved this encounter. The two black dudes were in long black coats, I felt confident one of them had a gun because they seemed seasoned at this, and of COURSE I was in gym gear and didn't have mine! WTF!!! I followed the dudes out of the store but did not confront them. We did not know if they had anything left on them or not. Either way, I am still pissed. I wanted to ruffle their feathers in the store, but I realized as soon as I doze one of them, huge dollars in liquor and glass was going to be everywhere. I guess I did not want to engage, but I fear I might be getting weak.
> 
> ...


@bobsmith , 

This day-and-age a lot of District Attorneys don't even prosecute if the theft is less than $1000, and my guess is that the black dudes weren't stealing $1000 worth of booze. Just being thugs. 

Considering all the facts, I think what occurred, the way it occurred, was the best possible outcome. You backed up the employee, no merchandise was stolen, the thugs backed down and went away, and no one was hurt. That's win/win/win/win in my book. Even though you didn't have your sidearm, your instinctive reach no doubt gave the thugs pause that you might be carrying, and they didn't want to lose their lives over some Colt45. Yeah, it will probably never be a case that's solved and the thugs probably won't receive criminal justice, but you made several good moves: you backed up the employee, you had enough command presence to make the thugs doubt themselves, you followed them out of the place, and essentially made sure the store was secure again. 

Now I think just re-evaluate the sidearm and the gym gear. I know you're not gonna carry in the gym while working out, but when/how could you have the sidearm with you right before and right after when you're in your gear? I'd say that's the lesson of this encounter.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

ConanHub said:


> Just go along with it and no one gets hurt. ...
> I understand going along to not get hurt too bad.
> I also understand OP's POV.


Yeah, here's the sad truth: "Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing. He is not a good man who, without a protest, allows wrong to be committed..." John Stuart Mill

"Bad men (humans) are going to do bad things. Good men (humans) have a duty to do something to stop it. And in @bobsmith 's case all that was required was to stand with the employee and escort them out.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

If my husband wanted to get involved in a situation like that, I would be very disappointed. Why risk your life over a few bottles of booze? Doesn't make sense to me. 

I don't think my husband would since his dad is a retired police officer. He knows better.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

This makes me glad to be in country where guns are illegal. Once one person in this sort of situation shoots, it all goes to pot and one or more end up dead. It's just not worth it.


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## bobsmith (Oct 15, 2012)

Like I say, I realize I am a minority here. I personally don't have that gear to walk away, especially when I see an employee in a situation. If it means eating a bullet, so be it. I am not going to try to defend my mentality here, as a minority but this "it's just booze" is exactly what criminals want you to think. Then "it is just a car", then "just a life". Anyone LEO/VET knows this. 

But when I said "I don't have my side arm", that does NOT mean I had intentions to use it. I have been in serious situations before. The issue is it limited my options if things escalated. For that reason alone, I now realize I have to review my CCH plan, even in light Summer clothes. IT SUCKS! I hate doing it, but I refuse to become a statistic.

EDIT: I wanted to share a quick story just to rebut ANYONE that thinks the "cops" are going to come save you! A 22yo girl was dog sitting and called 911 that the dogs were attacking and trying to kill her. The cops arrived and did not enter the home for 37 MINUTES!!!!! They will literally wait until the shooting stops, and collect the dead bodies and "do a report". I have seen this play out so many times in my career that I have lost count. YOU better learn to cover your own 6 or learn to run like lighting.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> This makes me glad to be in country where guns are illegal. Once one person in this sort of situation shoots, it all goes to pot and one or more end up dead. It's just not worth it.


That's a different discussion.


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## Cooper (Apr 18, 2008)

Diana7 said:


> This makes me glad to be in country where guns are illegal. Once one person in this sort of situation shoots, it all goes to pot and one or more end up dead. It's just not worth it.



I will say this a million times. Criminals will always have guns, THEY DO NOT OBEY THE LAWS. I would not want to live in any place that outlaws firearms to law abiding citizens.

But let's not get off topic, my bad.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

ConanHub said:


> Just go along with it and no one gets hurt.
> 
> It's an interesting philosophy and has been adopted by many.
> 
> ...


It makes me so sad that this is where we are. “Just don’t fight him and hopefully he won’t hurt you too badly.” “Just give them what they ask for.” Criminals are running roughshod over society and our government is not just allowing it, they’re incentivizing it. It’s a real shame.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> Few criminals have guns here because they will get thrown into jail if they do.
> Why would we want guns? We don't.


Yes they do. They all have guns. Criminals don’t follow laws. That they have guns and the people don’t makes them need to use them less, because they never have to worry about anyone resisting. Making good people helpless doesn’t make bad people harmless.


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

I ran this by a friend of mine who is a cop for his opinion. This is what he had to say and based on IF he pulled a gun....

The guy sounds like hot head looking for trouble and trying to be the hero. Laws vary from state to state. But in our state, if he had a pistol and pulled it, he would have been arrested. First, even if he saw them stealing, that doesn't justify a non LEO to pull a weapon. Next, he followed them out of the store which was a really dumb move as he was outnumbered and suspected they were armed. He would have been charged with.....

Felony assault - He did not touch them, but holding someone at gunpoint without a valid reason can be considered assault. The gun turns it into a felony

Unlawful detaining 
Disturbing the peace

If he fired, that changes everything and other charges would be added depending on the circumstances. The pistol involved in the incident will be confiscated and condemned by the court. A DAs office is usually very eager to go after gun crimes. You most likely will get a plea deal if your record is clean. This will include a felony conviction, loss of ccw license, hefty fines, and 4/5 years supervised probation with a multi year suspended prison sentence. 

Because you are now a convicted felon, you cannot legally buy/own/sell any firearms. You will have a small window of time to turn all firearms in your name over to authorities. If you dont, you will see law enforcement at your house with a search warrant. They will bust the door down and tear your home apart looking for the weapons. At that point, you just violated probation for failure to obey a court order


This is just food for thought. He says you have every legal right to defend yourself or others from someone who is in the process of causing bodily harm or clearly about to cause bodily harm. But shoplifting is no grounds for pulling a weapon and besides the law, its not worth your safety and life.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

TexasMom1216 said:


> It makes me so sad that this is where we are. “Just don’t fight him and hopefully he won’t hurt you too badly.” “Just give them what they ask for.” Criminals are running roughshod over society and our government is not just allowing it, they’re incentivizing it. It’s a real shame.


A life is always more important than say a few packs of cigarettes or bottles of booze though.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> A life is always more important than say a few packs of cigarettes or bottles of booze though.


Your way of thinking actually destroys entire societies however.

Look at California. If criminals don't hurt you physically, is it ok for them to take everything you own and drive you out of your city?

Unfortunately, violence, and the very real threat of violence, is the only thing that allows any society to function at any level from tribal to global.

Taking my life by taking everything I worked for so my family is in danger is no less onerous than physically threatening me.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> A life is always more important than say a few packs of cigarettes or bottles of booze though.


Yes. It is. But it doesn’t always go that way. Somehow people have the idea that say, here in Texas, we’re all carrying which means we have shootouts over cigarettes. The truth is, it’s more like sharks.
Big sharks will encounter each other and the interaction will be very cautious and polite. A shark will think twice about starting a fight with another shark because all sharks have very dangerous teeth. Even the shark that “wins” the fight is likely seriously if not fatally injured. 
Guns are the same way. If every negative altercation could potentially turn deadly, people are far less likely to start trouble. The reason there are exponentially fewer nighttime home invasions in Houston than Chicago is because if you break into a home in Houston, you’re endangering the life of someone (and their children) who more than likely has the means to defend themselves with deadly force. Places with strict “gun control” laws (in scare quotes because they don’t control guns, they only control innocent people and prevent them from defending themselves) have more deadly crime because the criminals have all the power. It’s the difference between a shark vs a fish and a shark vs another shark. I would rather be a shark.

Its a wholly different culture though. I don’t really expect you to understand. I wanted to try to explain. 🤷‍♀️


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

ConanHub said:


> Your way of thinking actually destroys entire societies however.
> 
> Look at California. If criminals don't hurt you physically, is it ok for them to take everything you own and drive you out of your city?
> 
> ...


Peace is kept by good men skilled at violence. ❤


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> I ran this by a friend of mine who is a cop for his opinion. This is what he had to say and based on IF he pulled a gun....
> 
> The guy sounds like hot head looking for trouble and trying to be the hero. Laws vary from state to state. But in our state, if he had a pistol and pulled it, he would have been arrested. First, even if he saw them stealing, that doesn't justify a non LEO to pull a weapon. Next, he followed them out of the store which was a really dumb move as he was outnumbered and suspected they were armed. He would have been charged with.....
> 
> ...


OP probably wouldn't have pulled his weapon as he has already stated but was regretting not having it so that argument is totally invalid here.

I've carried for years and never had to pull it but it's been ready a couple of times.

I think the castle law should be implemented for all personal property including businesses and cars or purses and jewelry.

I know a lot of law enforcement as well and they all advise people to carry and be trained and ready.

They've had to clean up what's left of too many people who weren't armed.


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## bobsmith (Oct 15, 2012)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> I ran this by a friend of mine who is a cop for his opinion. This is what he had to say and based on IF he pulled a gun....
> 
> The guy sounds like hot head looking for trouble and trying to be the hero. Laws vary from state to state. But in our state, if he had a pistol and pulled it, he would have been arrested. First, even if he saw them stealing, that doesn't justify a non LEO to pull a weapon. Next, he followed them out of the store which was a really dumb move as he was outnumbered and suspected they were armed. He would have been charged with.....
> 
> ...


LMFAO! I'd LOVE to know how you explained the chain of events! I probably know my laws better than your LEO friend. But I will totally ignore all your senseless rambling because it is obvious your position is "roll over and play dead".... I want your address! I need some new stuff! 

BUT, you have hyped up some BS scenario in which I pull a gun on someone. I know precisely when my force is authorized and I did NOT step outside my lane other than to assist in an active situation. 

I swear! Like literally I was scolded years ago for putting my hand on my gun because someone threatened to stab me and produced a knife!!!!! I was PISSED so I put the cop on the stand and asked him precisely if someone came at him with a knife and said they are going to stab you, are you instructed to draw your service weapon???? YES!!! The fact that I didn't means I might have a little more control than your average "hot head" because I have actually looked down the barrel of a gun. 

Don't get this all twisted up about guns!


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> This makes me glad to be in country where guns are illegal. Once one person in this sort of situation shoots, it all goes to pot and one or more end up dead. It's just not worth it.


Does the prevention of gun ownership prevent criminals from beating you to death?

This women was punched 125 times by this man and then stomped. Nobody could come to her aid without risking themselves, she was left alone with him.









Asian woman stomped on and punched more than 125 times after being called racial slur, police say


A New York woman was punched more than 125 times in the head and face and stomped on seven times by a man who had allegedly called her an "Asian b*tch," the Yonkers Police Department said in a news release Monday.




amp.cnn.com


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> Your way of thinking actually destroys entire societies however.
> 
> Look at California. If criminals don't hurt you physically, is it ok for them to take everything you own and drive you out of your city?
> 
> ...


Of course we shouldn't just let people do what they want. 
Thats why we have a police force. 
I don't believe in people trying too be the police and meteing out their own justice. That's happened in the past and never worked.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> Of course we shouldn't just let people do what they want.
> Thats why we have a police force.
> I don't believe in people trying too be the police and meteing out their own justice. That's happened in the past and never worked.


When you have moments to live, the police are minutes away.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Real life isn’t the movies. People who are trained to use a firearm aren’t waving them around or pulling them for no reason. Placing your hand on your sidearm is PREP. It’s not a threat, it’s a reaction to a threat. No one who is trained and truly understands firearms is careless with them. Gun safety is very serious business.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

jonty30 said:


> When you have moments to live, the police are minutes away.


I'll take my chances. Murders are rare here apart from in one or two if the major cities where gangs operate.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> Of course people will kill using
> other methods but gun ownership always leads to vast numbers of shootings.


This is false. There are no statistics that back this up that don’t come from anti-gun people. More people are shot in Chicago, with the strictest gun laws in the nation, than any state with carry laws. When guns are illegal only criminals have guns.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

jonty30 said:


> Does the prevention of gin ownership prevent criminals from beating you to death?





Diana7 said:


> Of course we shouldn't just let people do what they want.
> Thats why we have a police force.
> I don't believe in people trying too be the police and meteing out their own justice. That's happened in the past and never worked.


The police do not prevent crime. They investigate and clean up afterwards.

I do believe you live in an ideal setting but there are many getting raped, murdered and robbed despite your belief that police are stopping them.

No they are not.

Defense of self and property is a right and responsibility.

The police are not hired to protect either you or your property.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> I'll take my chances. Murders are rare here apart from in one or two if the major cities where gangs operate.


With guns. And no one can stop them, because they’re the only ones with guns.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> Of course people will kill using
> other methods but gun ownership always leads to vast numbers of shootings.


You are uninformed. In areas of our country where there are many legal gun owners, shootings are much lower than in areas where it's almost impossible own a gun legally.

I grew up in a gun culture where school kids owned guns and had them in their vehicles while driving to school and no one shot each other.

No one would even think about breaking into a home or carjacking someone.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

TexasMom1216 said:


> This is false. There are no statistics that back this up that don’t come from anti-gun people. More people are shot in Chicago, with the strictest gun laws in the nation, than any state with carry laws. When guns are illegal only criminals have guns.


Thankfully not many here because gun laws are so strict. You get a good jail sentence if found with a gun.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> You are uninformed. In areas of our country where there are many legal gun owners, shootings are much lower than in areas where it's almost impossible own a gun legally.
> 
> I grew up in a gun culture where school kids owned guns and had them in their vehicles while driving to school and no one shot each other.
> 
> No one would even think about breaking into a home or carjacking someone.


The USA has vastly more shootings than say the UK even taking into account the population difference because we don't have or use guns.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> Thankfully not many here because gun laws are so strict. You get a good jail sentence if found with a gun.


It scares me that you think this way. It really does. You do realize the only people who follow laws are not criminals? Murder is illegal. Rape is illegal. Theft is illegal. Do you believe those things aren’t happening because you get a “good jail sentence” if you do them?


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> The USA has vastly more shootings than say the UK even taking into account the population difference because we don't have or use guns.


No. It doesn’t. The UK doesn’t sensationalize gun violence because their citizens are already helpless and can’t stop the government from controlling them. You hear about shootings here because our media is trying to disarm us. Your media doesn’t want anyone to know “gun control” doesn’t work.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> The USA has vastly more shootings than say the UK even taking into account the population difference because we don't have or use guns.


Criminals do and you have massive crimes against women and violent crimes, including murder and rape have been just as much on the rise on your side of the pond as everywhere.

The screaming women getting brutalized and violated in your country aren't any better off for lack of less shootings and, if you would pay attention, the areas in our country with the most shootings are those with the most restrictions against non criminals.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

TexasMom1216 said:


> No. It doesn’t. The UK doesn’t sensationalize gun violence because their citizens are already helpless and can’t stop the government from controlling them. You hear about shootings here because our media is trying to disarm us. Your media doesn’t want anyone to know “gun control” doesn’t work.


I also read an article where they counted one armed group who brutalized and robbed an entire apartment complex, going from room to room with no fear as they did whatever they wanted, as one gun crime. Britain Fudges the numbers a bit eh?


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

ConanHub said:


> I also read an article where they counted one armed group who brutalized and robbed an entire apartment complex, going from room to room with no fear as they did whatever they wanted, as one gun crime. Britain Fudges the numbers a bit eh?


The British government can treat its people as they please, they aren’t armed. 😉 I had friends from CA who visited Ireland try to tell me there were no guns there. I guess the IRA uses slingshots.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

TexasMom1216 said:


> The British government can treat its people as they please, they aren’t armed. 😉 I had friends from CA who visited Ireland try to tell me there were no guns there. I guess the IRA uses slingshots.


They do have a different culture and I appreciate it but I won't be scolded by them.


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## bobsmith (Oct 15, 2012)

Obviously this thread has turned towards "guns"..... I think it is pretty obvious who supports them and who doesn't. That is fine. I happen to live in a country that was founded on them. They are not going away, ever. It is also obvious total ignorance of people that say "more people die by guns in the USA". You bet! And 99% of them are by hardened criminals with a rap sheet! Here is something you cannot ignore. In the USA, the more strict the local gun laws, the higher the crime rates! WOW! It's almost a coincidence! 

But in the end, I will simplify this for people not in the know. Justification of lethal force is authorized when defending self or another against a perceived threat of death or severe bodily harm. Sometimes you don't get to check in with the arm chair lawyers, but you have to lean on the fact that a jury of 12 will have to be unanimous. Kyle Rittenhouse wrote the book on this! DA trump up bullshi4 charges, and walks a free man........

I think one thing people just can't seem to grasp is criminals knowingly put their life on the line the second they commit a crime. I do not feel sorry for the ones getting ventilated by people that have had enough. Criminals don't get to play the "victim" card.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

ConanHub said:


> They do have a different culture and I appreciate it but I won't be scolded by them.


Well they tried that once. ONCE. 😉🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> Of course people will kill using
> other methods but gun ownership always leads to vast numbers of shootings.


Right, people will kill. 
So, it's not the gun that is the problem.
Killing somebody by shooting is not any different than stabbing or beating them or choking to death.
Guns in the States aren't even the most common way that people are killed. Hands and feet are the most common weapons. 
All you are doing, by removing guns as a weapon of self defense is making people helpless against those hands and feet.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> I'll take my chances. Murders are rare here apart from in one or two if the major cities where gangs operate.


That's your right, but it isn't your right to take away my ability to defend myself or that Asian women in the post I made.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

bobsmith said:


> I think one thing people just can't seem to grasp is criminals knowingly put their life on the line the second they commit a crime. I do not feel sorry for the ones getting ventilated by people that have had enough.


No one breaks into your home in the middle of the night when you’re home to clean your house. And I’m not the one who decided my stuff was worth their life. They made that choice.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

ConanHub said:


> The police do not prevent crime. They investigate and clean up afterwards.
> 
> I do believe you live in an ideal setting but there are many getting raped, murdered and robbed despite your belief that police are stopping them.
> 
> ...


The US Supreme Court has ruled that the police can watch you being harmed without having to intervene. Their only responsibility is to catch the perp for prosecution by the state.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> I get it. The biggest criminals are those we hired to uphold laws, who are purposefully not doing their jobs and actually "legalizing" criminals while turning law abiding citizens into victims or criminalizing defense.
> 
> I'm not carrying most times these days but I insist Mrs. C does.


I’m not actually convinced that we did hire the _current _administration_. _However, your other points are all completely spot on.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> Thankfully not many here because gun laws are so strict. You get a good jail sentence if found with a gun.


Outside the Democrat strongholds, the US crime rate by gun is almost non-existent.
Outside those cities, and the US crime rate falls to fourth from the bottom in the world in terms of crime.
In those Democrat strongholds, they have European like laws governing guns.
You basically can't own a gun in a Democrat city.
It's not the gun, it's the spiritual condition of the people in Democrat cities that are at the root of gun crime.


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## uwe.blab (May 2, 2019)

OP, scared. It's ok.


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## Zedd (Jul 27, 2021)

bobsmith said:


> more people die by guns in the USA". You bet! And 99% of them are by hardened criminals with a rap sheet!


********. 54% of gun deaths are suicide.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

So here's my only concern:

"I know there are a few guys here like me, but I realize not many. I went into a liquor store this eve and as I am walking in, I see one of the employees confronting two black dudes trying to steal stuff. I immediately back him up, though I have to admit I was still trying to figure out wtf was even going on. I heard him say "put it back", and I know the employee so...."

In the moment, you were not at all sure of what was happening. Does this not cause you pause on how you should react in ambiguous circumstances? That, and the repeated "not many guys here like me" statements gives me a strong savior vibe. Like you actively want to interject yourself into these circumstances - which is not too far a step from accidentally creating them in your own mind where they are not necessary.


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## bobsmith (Oct 15, 2012)

TexasMom1216 said:


> No one breaks into your home in the middle of the night when you’re home to clean your house. And I’m not the one who decided my stuff was worth their life. They made that choice.


 That's a fact! Call it an occupational hazard. I find it concerning when I hear of BS news stories, "home owner shoots unarmed intruder".... People think you need to be dead to return fire. B&E is almost always by criminals that STARTED by robbing liquor stores!!! I don't think people understand how criminals evolve and get more bold.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Zedd said:


> ******. 54% of gun deaths are suicide.


If you remove all the lawful deaths by guns and gang bangers and suicide, the number of murder by guns is about 3,200. A drop in the bucket in a country the size of the US.


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## Zedd (Jul 27, 2021)

jonty30 said:


> If you remove all the lawful deaths by guns and gang bangers and suicide, the number of murder by guns is about 32,000. A drop in the bucket in a country the size of the US.


Um, irrelevant. He said 99% of gun deaths were by hardened criminals. Hyperbole for sure, but it was a stupid statement.

But I forgot, facts don't matter around here. Carry on. Go find a gun meme.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

bobsmith said:


> That's a fact! Call it an occupational hazard. I find it concerning when I hear of BS news stories, "home owner shoots unarmed intruder".... People think you need to be dead to return fire. B&E is almost always by criminals that STARTED by robbing liquor stores!!! I don't think people understand how criminals evolve and get more bold.


People don’t understand crime or criminals. They want to believe the Jean Valjean mythology that criminals are just misunderstood. No. Some people are just bad. You can’t fix them.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Zedd said:


> Um, irrelevant. He said 99% of gun deaths were by hardened criminals. Hyperbole for sure, but it was a stupid statement.
> 
> But I forgot, facts don't matter around here. Carry on. Go find a gun meme.


It's not irrelevant that unlawful use of guns is so low in America, when you have removed the lawful use of guns from the statistics.
It shows that unlawful gun crime is really actually low in the States.
That's not irrelevant at all, if your position is that guns should be restricted.
Why restrict something that really isn't a problem?


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## bobsmith (Oct 15, 2012)

Cletus said:


> So here's my only concern:
> 
> "I know there are a few guys here like me, but I realize not many. I went into a liquor store this eve and as I am walking in, I see one of the employees confronting two black dudes trying to steal stuff. I immediately back him up, though I have to admit I was still trying to figure out wtf was even going on. I heard him say "put it back", and I know the employee so...."
> 
> In the moment, you were not at all sure of what was happening. Does this not cause you pause on how you should react in ambiguous circumstances? That, and the repeated "not many guys here like me" statements gives me a strong savior vibe. Like you actively want to interject yourself into these circumstances - which is not too far a step from accidentally creating them in your own mind where they are not necessary.


You can read that how you want, but I guess I will clarify, "not many guys here like me" means not willing to cower in the corner, call the cops, make a report, wipe my tears. If someone wants to think that is some "savior" stance, whatev. What is unfortunate is when someone is kicking you unconscious, you might rethink my mentality to 'help'. I will never let someone stand alone in a situation like that. 

OR! You could have an off duty LEO come "save" you from yourself!


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> People don’t understand crime or criminals. They want to believe the Jean Valjean mythology that criminals are just misunderstood. No. Some people are just bad. You can’t fix them.


Liberals operate from the mentality that fixing people will happen when you fix their outside circumstances. 
It's the opposite in reality. You have to fix people internally and then their outside circumstances will fix themselves.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

bobsmith said:


> You can read that how you want, but I guess I will clarify, "not many guys here like me" means not willing to cower in the corner, call the cops, make a report, wipe my tears. If someone wants to think that is some "savior" stance, whatev. What is unfortunate is when someone is kicking you unconscious, you might rethink my mentality to 'help'. I will never let someone stand alone in a situation like that.


Dude, you posted looking for opinions. You YOURSELF stated that you were not sure what was happening in the moment. That seems like a place where mistakes are easy to make. 

Lots of people are willing to be a hero when it's necessary. Necessary being a very subjective term.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I would have been thinking, each liquor bottle is a good projectile, but I do think taking photos of the cars nearby with plates is the best plan.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I would have been thinking, each liquor bottle is a good projectile, but I do think taking photos of the cars nearby with plates is the best plan.


In my country, a convenience store was robbed. There were two guys working and one of them was in the back room and he came out during the robbery.
He threw a bag of chips and the guy responded with two bullets in the chest.


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## Zedd (Jul 27, 2021)

jonty30 said:


> It's not irrelevant that unlawful use of guns is so low in America, when you have removed the lawful use of guns from the statistics.
> It shows that unlawful gun crime is really actually low in the States.
> That's not irrelevant at all, if your position is that guns should be restricted.
> Why restrict something that really isn't a problem?


Where have I said anything about restricting gun use? I'll help you out. I haven't.

I said his statement that 99% of gun deaths were by hardened criminals, was incorrect. They are not. Period
Suicide is also not a lawful use of a firearm. Not really worth trying to prosecute, however.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Zedd said:


> Where have I said anything about restricting gun use? I'll help you out. I haven't.
> 
> I said his statement that 99% of gun deaths were by hardened criminals, was incorrect. They are not. Period
> Suicide is also not a lawful use of a firearm. Not really worth trying to prosecute, however.


All right.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

jonty30 said:


> In my country, a convenience store was robbed. There were two guys working and one of them was in the back room and he came out during the robbery.
> He threw a bag of chips and the guy responded with two bullets in the chest.


You have to be stealthy and use something stronger than potato chips!


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Zedd said:


> Um, irrelevant. He said 99% of gun deaths were by hardened criminals. Hyperbole for sure, but it was a stupid statement.
> 
> But I forgot, facts don't matter around here. Carry on. Go find a gun meme.


Well he meant murder but now you know.

P.S. how are gun laws in Fiji?


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> You have to be stealthy and use something stronger than potato chips!


Cash control and inventory controls are actually better measures.
Studies show that tills that kept at about $75 is a deterrent to thieves, because it isn't worth 6 months over $75.


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## Zedd (Jul 27, 2021)

ConanHub said:


> Well he meant murder but now you know.
> 
> P.S. how are gun laws in Fiji?


It'd still be wrong. Most murder's are done by someone the victim knows - i.e. family or friends, not a random person.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Zedd said:


> It'd still be wrong. Most murder's are done by someone the victim knows - i.e. family or friends, not a random person.


You're right. Proximity is the most common correlation of murders.


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

bobsmith said:


> LMFAO! I'd LOVE to know how you explained the chain of events! I probably know my laws better than your LEO friend. But I will totally ignore all your senseless rambling because it is obvious your position is "roll over and play dead".... I want your address! I need some new stuff!
> 
> BUT, you have hyped up some BS scenario in which I pull a gun on someone. I know precisely when my force is authorized and I did NOT step outside my lane other than to assist in an active situation.
> 
> ...


You don't have to be so arrogant. You have admitted you were looking to take action in that store and you regret that you were not carrying at that moment. You have also admitted someone once threatened to stab you and you had another incident of looking down the barrel of a gun....this paints a general idea of your attitude in public.

My friend has been an officer for nearly 20 years and started shortly after graduating high school. He has seen and experienced a lot. He has worked with the DAs office a lot. He says the typical DAs office is overloaded and they are looking to close most cases asap. Many crimes get a typical rubber stamped type plea deal offer just to close them out. Some types of crime like murder, rape, gun crime, and some other major crimes are the ones that get the most attention.

I am not one to break the law, but he has given me valuable advice such as. If you ever get pulled over, the first thing a cop says is. Do you know why I pulled you over? If you say, I ran the stop sign. He now has a solid case if you take the ticket to court. Or if pulled over for speeding. He will say, do you know how fast you were going? If you say a number, then he has you.

If you ever get arrested, remember that you have the right to remain silent lol. He has said that many people give them all the evidence they need because they wont shut up. Or a detective will say, just tell us your side of the story and we will talk to the judge 🙄

He also said that if you are suspected of a crime and detectives want you to voluntarily come to the station to talk, DON'T!.... They have absolutely nothing and are trying to get you to say something to incriminate yourself. If they had anything, they would arrest you.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> You don't have to be so arrogant. You have admitted you were looking to take action in that store and you regret that you were not carrying at that moment. You have also admitted someone once threatened to stab you and you had another incident of looking down the barrel of a gun....this paints a general idea of your attitude in public.
> 
> My friend has been an officer for nearly 20 years and started shortly after graduating high school. He has seen and experienced a lot. He has worked with the DAs office a lot. He says the typical DAs office is overloaded and they are looking to close most cases asap. Many crimes get a typical rubber stamped type plea deal offer just to close them out. Some types of crime like murder, rape, gun crime, and some other major crimes are the ones that get the most attention.
> 
> ...


I learned that early on. The police never just want to talk.


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## bobsmith (Oct 15, 2012)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> You don't have to be so arrogant. You have admitted you were looking to take action in that store and you regret that you were not carrying at that moment. You have also admitted someone once threatened to stab you and you had another incident of looking down the barrel of a gun....this paints a general idea of your attitude in public.
> 
> My friend has been an officer for nearly 20 years and started shortly after graduating high school. He has seen and experienced a lot. He has worked with the DAs office a lot. He says the typical DAs office is overloaded and they are looking to close most cases asap. Many crimes get a typical rubber stamped type plea deal offer just to close them out. Some types of crime like murder, rape, gun crime, and some other major crimes are the ones that get the most attention.
> 
> ...


I have family that did 30yrs as an LEO, and have 3 attorneys in the fam. I know how to control my mouth, I know everything is being recorded, and I know LEOs are not my friend trying to have a casual convo. 

And what you have said lines up directly with what I know and advocate for, which is "take it to trial". The DA banks on people taking a plea. Your friend will also know that "plea" many times gets a whole lot sweeter on the morning of trial. 

What irritates me is you threw me in with the "gun crimes". I am not out committing a gun crime. Hell, I am not even out looking for criminals.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

bobsmith said:


> I know there are a few guys here like me, but I realize not many. I went into a liquor store this eve and as I am walking in, I see one of the employees confronting two black dudes trying to steal stuff. I immediately back him up, though I have to admit I was still trying to figure out wtf was even going on. I heard him say "put it back", and I know the employee so....
> 
> Anyway, as some men might do, I am combing my thoughts in how I could have improved this encounter. The two black dudes were in long black coats, I felt confident one of them had a gun because they seemed seasoned at this, and of COURSE I was in gym gear and didn't have mine! WTF!!! I followed the dudes out of the store but did not confront them. We did not know if they had anything left on them or not. Either way, I am still pissed. I wanted to ruffle their feathers in the store, but I realized as soon as I doze one of them, huge dollars in liquor and glass was going to be everywhere. I guess I did not want to engage, but I fear I might be getting weak.
> 
> ...


I have a concealed pistol license and carry almost all the time. I am not a trained police officer. My CPL is to protect me, my family and people I care about. In other situations, I will be a "good witness" and make sure I do not become a victim. 

The training I have gotten has emphasized that risking a human life over property is a dumb thing to do. It is just not worth the risk. I had a truck where someone broke the window and took stuff from it. My neighbor who told me about it said the guy was lucky I didn't shoot him. I told my neighbor, that a human life was not worth whatever was in my truck.

You are absolutely correct that you can't predict what would have happened, if you had confronted the two thieves. Their race should not be an issue. The problem with confrontation is you don't know how it will end. Your intervention like you pointed out could have resulted in the thieves making it a deadly force confrontation by drawing a handgun or knife. Even if that had happened and you had a firearm, the only certain justification for shooting someone would be that you felt your life was in immediate danger. Far to often the police and justice system takes the attitude of arrest them all and let the juries sort it out. In the CPL: training we were taught that anytime you draw your weapon, expect to be arrested. If you are lucky, you might not be, but don't count on it.

If you do have a CPL, I strongly suggest that you also have "less lethal weapon" on you as well, so you can exercise a proportional amount of force in such a confrontation.

Again, you did the right thing. Don't second guess yourself. Be a good witness, you are not the police, and the justice systerm hates vigilantes. Unfortuanely they don't often know a Good Samaritan when they see one.


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## Zedd (Jul 27, 2021)

bobsmith said:


> What irritates me is you threw me in with the "gun crimes". I am not out committing a gun crime. Hell, I am not even out looking for criminals.


To be fair, all evidence indicates that the "thugs" weren't committing a gun crime either. You assumed they were based upon your experience. Your story, looking at it objectively, looks like you helped stop 2 people from shoplifting, not holding up a liquor store.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

uwe.blab said:


> OP, scared. It's ok.


Being prepared is the opposite of being scared. And, being prepared doesn’t just mean carrying a gun. It means knowing how to handle the gun, how to shoot the gun, and how to safely secure the gun. It also means knowing the laws of land, wherever you happen to be carrying the gun. 

If you ever unexpectedly find yourself in the presence of a bad guy, with a gun, who intends to do you harm, I guarantee, whether you are a Christian or not, you will immediately start praying that there is a good guy with a gun nearby.

However, make no mistake, we are living in some very scary times. Evil walks among us, and it often looks no different that you or I.

Being aware of your surroundings, and preparing accordingly, does not make one a coward or scared. It makes them wise.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

bobsmith said:


> Regardless, I can't walk away. This deal pissed me off.


Because injustice is felt deep in the bone of good men.


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## bobsmith (Oct 15, 2012)

Zedd said:


> To be fair, all evidence indicates that the "thugs" weren't committing a gun crime either. You assumed they were based upon your experience. Your story, looking at it objectively, looks like you helped stop 2 people from shoplifting, not holding up a liquor store.


I am sorry if I painted the picture that this was an armed robbery! But yes, my experience said there is a high probability the shorter male had a gun in his pocket by the things that he was doing. I did not want it to escalate.


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

bobsmith said:


> I have family that did 30yrs as an LEO, and have 3 attorneys in the fam. I know how to control my mouth, I know everything is being recorded, and I know LEOs are not my friend trying to have a casual convo.
> 
> And what you have said lines up directly with what I know and advocate for, which is "take it to trial". The DA banks on people taking a plea. Your friend will also know that "plea" many times gets a whole lot sweeter on the morning of trial.
> 
> What irritates me is you threw me in with the "gun crimes". I am not out committing a gun crime. Hell, I am not even out looking for criminals.


What a lovely life you live.


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## Zedd (Jul 27, 2021)

Edit: Never mind. I'm out.


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## m.t.t (Oct 5, 2016)

really? there were two black guys. If they were white you would have just there were two guys. The colour of someone's skin is not an indicator of a situation FFS. This is why innocent people get killed all of the time in your country. 

'Also I carry my gun with me at all times. I should have had my gun with me.' What for? Gee your area must be so scary to live in if you feel you need something to kill with at all times. 

I feel really bad that this is your normal.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

m.t.t said:


> really? there were two black guys. If they were white you would have just there were two guys. The colour of someone's skin is not an indicator of a situation FFS. This is why innocent people get killed all of the time in your country.
> 
> 'Also I carry my gun with me at all times. I should have had my gun with me.' What for? Gee your area must be so scary to live in if you feel you need something to kill with at all times.
> 
> I feel really bad that this is your normal.


I'd take the normality of being armed at all times over free healthcare, in exchange for your rights.
Any day of the week.

The reality is that criminals are armed, regardless of the colour of their skin. It just so happens in the OP's story that the criminal element were two black men.


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## m.t.t (Oct 5, 2016)

jonty30 said:


> I'd take the normality of being armed at all times over free healthcare, in exchange for your rights.
> Any day of the week.
> 
> The reality is that criminals are armed, regardless of the colour of their skin. It just so happens in the OP's story that the criminal element were two black men.


not really sure of the point you are making.

No it was two men. Saying they were black is pointless unless its to identify them. It's called racism.

We are not allowed to carry firearms here. Period. We have the right to feel safe. We have the right not to feel like some lunatic is going maybe use a gun on us. A gun is a weapon. We are not allowed to carry weapons. Thank god because there are nutters everywhere that don't need that kind of power.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

m.t.t said:


> not really sure of the point you are making.


I'm presuming that, by being shocked at somebody's normality of being armed, that you live in a country that has free healthcare.
To give that free healthcare, people like me have to work 70-80 hours/week, in order to pay for that healthcare and still provide for ourselves.
Free healthcare is just another form of robbery.
Between a society with free healthcare and the normality of being armed, I'd rather live in a society that is normally armed.
"An armed society is a polite society."


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

TexasMom1216 said:


> People don’t understand crime or criminals. They want to believe the Jean Valjean mythology that criminals are just misunderstood. No. Some people are just bad. You can’t fix them.


Exactly! Some people are just bad people. I know


m.t.t said:


> really? there were two black guys. If they were white you would have just there were two guys. The colour of someone's skin is not an indicator of a situation FFS. This is why innocent people get killed all of the time in your country.
> 
> 'Also I carry my gun with me at all times. I should have had my gun with me.' What for? Gee your area must be so scary to live in if you feel you need something to kill with at all times.
> 
> I feel really bad that this is your normal.


The sad part is this guy is in such denial. Thinks he could take it to trial and win.

I can see it right now. It would be White Male Guns Down Two Black Men Outside Store. You would see Al Sharpton and the rest of the normal folks all over tv slamming him in the court of public opinion while people riot across the country. He wouldn't have a chance at trial whether he was right or wrong. 

I agree with him that its ridiculous what these crooks get away with. But I don't agree with the whole attitude of being in hyper vigilante mode and looking for trouble.


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## m.t.t (Oct 5, 2016)

jonty30 said:


> I'm presuming that, by being shocked at somebody's normality of being armed, that you live in a country that has free healthcare.
> To give that free healthcare, people like me have to work 70-80 hours/week, in order to pay for that healthcare and still provide for ourselves.
> Free healthcare is just another form of robbery.
> Between a society with free healthcare and the normality of being armed, I'd rather live in a society that is normally armed.
> "An armed society is a polite society."


Yes we do. We live in the lucky country.

No you don't NEED to do anything to access it. There is nothing wrong with working though. Most people here do a 50 hour week. The poor also get free healthcare. I know it costs Americans a lot of money to access healthcare. We can go and have surgery for free if you are hurt or ill.

I'm not shocked just sad for you that you think it's necessary.


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## bobsmith (Oct 15, 2012)

m.t.t said:


> really? there were two black guys. If they were white you would have just there were two guys. The colour of someone's skin is not an indicator of a situation FFS. This is why innocent people get killed all of the time in your country.
> 
> 'Also I carry my gun with me at all times. I should have had my gun with me.' What for? Gee your area must be so scary to live in if you feel you need something to kill with at all times.
> 
> I feel really bad that this is your normal.


Not much point in debating with you. If they were purple, I would call them purple. A descriptor does not mean racist. get OVER it! I will guarantee when you witness a crime, the cops WILL ask you "what color were they?" Why might they ask that??? hmmmmm.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

m.t.t said:


> Yes we do. We live in the lucky country.
> 
> No you don't NEED to do anything to access it. There is nothing wrong with working though. Most people here do a 50 hour week. The poor also get free healthcare. I know it costs Americans a lot of money to access healthcare. We can go and have surgery for free if you are hurt or ill.
> 
> I'm not shocked just sad for you that you think it's necessary.


I don't feel lucky living in Canada. The $200,000 taken from me, to pay for the healthcare of liberals, was money that I could have invested and had a fund worth about $700,000. That $700,000 would have earned me enough to give up my other two jobs and basically be semi-retired. Do you think I should feel lucky knowing that will have to work 70-80 hours/week for the rest of my life and not benefitting from that because you wanted healthcare for yourself paid for by me?

America could have a great healthcare system simply by allowing them to invest in a healthcare 401k, where they can invest tax free and withdraw tax free as long as the money was spent on healthcare related issues. Their healthcare would cost 1/3 of Canada's and be of a much better quality. Canadians are paying premium prices for the promise of healthcare access, not the delivery of healthcare. We have waiting lists to stretch out the healthcare budget, but we say that nobody is denied healthcare. As long as you are on a waiting list, you are being denied healthcare.

95% of healthcare is self-care. I don't need the government to take $200,000 away from me in order for me to eat well, exercise hard, and sleep. 

A right to self defense requires tools in order to defend yourself. That means it requires a gun. That's just a fact of life that there is evil around us and there is a need to protect ourselves from that evil.


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## m.t.t (Oct 5, 2016)

bobsmith said:


> Not much point in debating with you. If they were purple, I would call them purple. A descriptor does not mean racist. get OVER it! I will guarantee when you witness a crime, the cops WILL ask you "what color were they?" Why might they ask that??? hmmmmm.


would you say two white men robbed a store? I don't think you would. No one asked for a description. It should have been two men were robbing a store. That is my point. It's so ingrained you can't see it. Just like the gun.

I'm in Australia. You don't pay for my health care.

Funny we don't need such tools to defend ourselves. Maybe we are more civilized and not so full of rage. We don't walk into a place and lament we don't have a weapon to kill over a shoplifting incident. Let them have the booze and stop thinking you are a cop. None of the OP business. Just way too keen to pull a weapon in my honest opinion.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

m.t.t said:


> would you say two white men robbed a store? I don't think you would. No one asked for a description. It should have been two men were robbing a store. That is my point. It's so ingrained you can't see it. Just like the gun.
> 
> I'm in Australia. You don't pay for my health care.
> 
> Funny we don't need such tools to defend ourselves. Maybe we are more civilized and not so full of rage. We don't walk into a place and lament we don't have a weapon to kill over a shoplifting incident. Let them have the booze and stop thinking you are a cop. None of the OP business. Just way too keen to pull a weapon in my honest opinion.


The only person in the world who objects to describing the men as they were, is the liberal.
I've never met a liberal who would have objected if the two men had been white, but because the men are black, they are not to be described. That makes you the racist.

My mistake. You just force your fellow Australians to be overwork, so you have a nice life.
Liberals worldwide are all alike in this one respect. They expect others to work and hand over their economic rewards to the liberal, so the liberal benefits while others do not.
You still have waiting lists, to give the impression of provision of healthcare, right?


----------



## bobsmith (Oct 15, 2012)

m.t.t said:


> would you say two white men robbed a store? I don't think you would. No one asked for a description. It should have been two men were robbing a store. That is my point. It's so ingrained you can't see it. Just like the gun.
> 
> I'm in Australia. You don't pay for my health care.
> 
> Funny we don't need such tools to defend ourselves. Maybe we are more civilized and not so full of rage. We don't walk into a place and lament we don't have a weapon to kill over a shoplifting incident. Let them have the booze and stop thinking you are a cop. None of the OP business. Just way too keen to pull a weapon in my honest opinion.


An Aussie! LMAO! One of the whitest countries out there, and you have a """white""" kiddy for your avatar. Why not black? You racist? Get off of it man! I am not getting in a race argument, but at least I am willing to look at the stats and use my own eyes. I have witnessed FOUR of these types of thefts in the last 60 days. All of them black. Am I a racist? I didn't pick em, I just described em.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> Exactly! Some people are just bad people. I know
> 
> The sad part is this guy is in such denial. Thinks he could take it to trial and win.
> 
> ...


It still appears you are painting your own narrative.

@bobsmith didn't really post the scenario you are talking about.

He just mentioned he forgot to be carrying, not that he would have drawn.

He also remarked at the boldness of the criminals and the state of law and order these days.


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## m.t.t (Oct 5, 2016)

jonty30 said:


> The only person in the world who objects to describing the men as they were, is the liberal.
> I've never met a liberal who would have objected if the two men had been white, but because the men are black, they are not to be described. That makes you the racist.
> 
> *My mistake. You just force your fellow Australians to be overwork, so you have a nice life.*
> ...


I'm just wondering exactly how I might be doing that? I think you see the world in a strange and hostile way. I'm guessing you are a Trump supporter? 

you don't know my politics. I'm just educated. 

I'm not sure how I'm forcing my fellow Australians to overwork, have you been to Australia? I work. I have always worked and made sure that I live a happy life working in an area that brings me happiness. 

We all have choices in life, you make life sound way too hard. Stop making assumptions about people. If you educated yourself you will have a much better understanding of the world. You will no longer think in such a hostile way.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

ConanHub said:


> It still appears you are painting your own narrative.
> 
> @bobsmith didn't really post the scenario you are talking about.
> 
> ...


Thing is, those of us accustomed to “law and order,” who live in that mindset, see the crime around us and want to do something, to make things safer. It’s a mentality that is hard to describe to those who don’t have it.
People unfamiliar with guns don’t understand how it feels to carry. It’s a huge weight, a serious responsibility, and the very last thing on your list of reactions is to draw your gun. Life isn’t the movies.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

m.t.t said:


> I'm just wondering exactly how I might be doing that? I think you see the world in a strange and hostile way. I'm guessing you are a Trump supporter?
> 
> you don't know my politics. I'm just educated.
> 
> ...


Now, why would I be hostile to some whose ethicacy is using people until they are used up for their personal benefit?
I know your politics by your microscopic focus on racial issues. Non-liberals don't care about racial issues, because they don't think about them.
As you said, it's so ingrained into you that you do not notice it. But the rest of us notice. 
I'm sure you do work. However, you'd probably have to do more work if you couldn't use your fellow Australians for your personal benefit.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Thing is, those of us accustomed to “law and order,” who live in that mindset, see the crime around us and want to do something, to make things safer. It’s a mentality that is hard to describe to those who don’t have it.
> People unfamiliar with guns don’t understand how it feels to carry. It’s a huge weight, a serious responsibility, and the very last thing on your list of reactions is to draw your gun. Life isn’t the movies.


I may be Canadian, but I am aware that lawful gun owners have the lowest crime rate of all demographics.


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## m.t.t (Oct 5, 2016)

bobsmith said:


> An Aussie! LMAO! One of the whitest countries out there, and you have a """white""" kiddy for your avatar. Why not black? You racist? Get off of it man! I am not getting in a race argument, but at least I am willing to look at the stats and use my own eyes. I have witnessed FOUR of these types of thefts in the last 60 days. All of them black. Am I a racist? I didn't pick em, I just described em.


no I don't have a kiddy as my aviator. Oh the cat!, it cute in its party hat. Not my cat though. Most people say I have a cat, they do not say my cat is grey etc unless asked. Wouldn't want a grey cat though, did you know that all grey cats smother their owners while they are sleep? The colour of their coat makes them way too scary to be around. They also hold up 7ELEVENS !!


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## Zedd (Jul 27, 2021)

jonty30 said:


> Non-liberals don't care about racial issues, because they don't think about them.


Yeah, those colorblind conservatives. They'd never do anything bad based on someones race... like. Never.

This is seriously one of the most unintentionally funniest things I've ever read.



jonty30 said:


> I may be Canadian, but I am aware that lawful gun owners have the lowest crime rate of all demographics.


I take it back, you've done one better. By default, if you commit a crime, you're no longer a lawful gun owner and aren't part of that demographic. Good lord.


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## bobsmith (Oct 15, 2012)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Thing is, those of us accustomed to “law and order,” who live in that mindset, see the crime around us and want to do something, to make things safer. It’s a mentality that is hard to describe to those who don’t have it.
> People unfamiliar with guns don’t understand how it feels to carry. It’s a huge weight, a serious responsibility, and the very last thing on your list of reactions is to draw your gun. Life isn’t the movies.


Dead on! People think I am here acting like I want to shoot someone, and I just want the theft to stop! And the Karens are acting like "it is just booze".... I am the one that has sat down with hardened criminals and learned how they work. I have met and dealt with troubled youth that are forced into these messes. It WILL escalate, you can bet on it! 

I absolutely HATE carrying a firearm! HATE it! But you know what I hate more? Seeing someone victimized when I am very capable of something to help. That could be helping an old lady walk across an icy parking lot (just happened), or engage a suspect, determined to kill innocent people. 

@TexasMom1216 , you are 100% correct that I have to realize countries that don't allow citizens to defend themselves, find this very topic abrasive. It is a way of life in the USA. One that governments want to try to infringe. To those outliers, I highly recommend reading out constitution and what it means.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Zedd said:


> Yeah, those colorblind conservatives. They'd never do anything bad based on someones race... like. Never.
> 
> This is seriously one of the most unintentionally funniest things I've ever read.
> 
> ...


It was Democrats that traumatized blacks, if that's what you mean.
Racism is the one that answers every deep question a liberal has.
Why is the sky blue? Racism.
Why is water wet? Racism
If that word never existed, what would liberals talk about?

Carrying a gun is not a crime.
That's I used the term lawful gun owner, to differentiate from gun owners that commit crimes.


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## bobsmith (Oct 15, 2012)

m.t.t said:


> no I don't have a kiddy as my aviator. Oh the cat!, it cute in its party hat. Not my cat though. Most people say I have a cat, they do not say my cat is grey etc unless asked. Wouldn't want a grey cat though, did you know that all grey cats smother their owners while they are sleep? The colour of their coat makes them way too scary to be around. They also hold up 7ELEVENS !!


I find it odd that which ever God you elect as your "maker" decided that you shall see colors. To see a difference. The fact that you describe a "gray" cat. But you are now going to tell me that I am not allowed to see a color different in humans. Only kitty cats, and probably every other worldly creation.....just not humans..... you are zinging off the confused and brain washed charts! When they stop asking for ethnicity on federal and college documents, I will become color blind. but I am reminded daily by the media that I am white so therefore I have a special "privilege". So apparently the media is not color blind either. 

Again, I made an observation. Study some LEO education and realize they are ALL RACIST!!!! They are taught to profile and describe what they see! Skin color being one of them. I kid you not! Can you believe it?


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## Zedd (Jul 27, 2021)

jonty30 said:


> It was Democrats that traumatized blacks, if that's what you mean.
> Racism is the one that answers every deep question a liberal has.
> Why is the sky blue? Racism.
> Why is water wet? Racism
> If that word never existed, what would liberals talk about?


Hey, but if I replace racism with liberals I'll fit right in around here.

You don't have to tell me who traumatized blacks and continues to do so daily. I'm acutely aware of it. 



jonty30 said:


> Carrying a gun is not a crime.
> That's I used the term lawful gun owner, to differentiate from gun owners that commit crimes.


I never said carrying a gun was a crime. Again, I've never once said I'm against guns. I just said your comment was unintentionally funny/absurd.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Zedd said:


> Hey, but if I replace racism with liberals I'll fit right in around here.
> 
> You don't have to tell me who traumatized blacks and continues to do so daily. I'm acutely aware of it.
> 
> ...


I am biased against people who use other people for personal benefit. What decent person wouldn't be against using people for personal benefit?
If you can't say Democrats traumatized blacks, you're not aware of it.
My comment on guns stand.


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## Zedd (Jul 27, 2021)

jonty30 said:


> If you can't say Democrats traumatized blacks, you're not aware of it.


I'm not aware of how blacks are traumatized? Ok. LOL.


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Zedd said:


> I'm not aware of how blacks are traumatized? Ok. LOL.


I'm sure you aware of that, but are you aware that it was Democrats that did it?
I suspect not.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I


TexasMom1216 said:


> It scares me that you think this way. It really does. You do realize the only people who follow laws are not criminals? Murder is illegal. Rape is illegal. Theft is illegal. Do you believe those things aren’t happening because you get a “good jail sentence” if you do them?


Of course not. Just pointing out that gun use isn't that common here among criminals compared to the USA. Someone just found with a gun, or who has a gun in their home will get a stiff sentence. It's just not accepted here. 
Not sure why it scares you, I am not scared. Crime happens, we have a good police force, we are not living in fear of being shot.


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> I
> Of course not. Just pointing out that gun use isn't that common here among criminals compared to the USA. Someone just found with a gun, or who has a gun in their home will get a stiff sentence.


But do you have criminals?


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## Zedd (Jul 27, 2021)

jonty30 said:


> I'm sure you aware of that, but are you aware that it was Democrats that did it?
> I suspect not.


So, are you going to tell me how "back in the day, all the racists were actually democrats" like things don't change over time?
Or, are you going to tell me how Democrats are currently screwing me over now? Because, I'll tell you what, for all their flaws, it sure as **** wasn't a bunch of democrat police officers that held me overnight on suspicion of DUI in the middle of nowhere Kentucky when I hadn't had anything to drink in two weeks, nor had any reason to be pulled over. I'll give you one guess as to why, and even give you a hint, it's not because "All non-liberals don't care about racial issues"


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

jonty30 said:


> But do you have criminals?


Of course, just not many use guns thankfully.


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## bobsmith (Oct 15, 2012)

Zedd said:


> I'm not aware of how blacks are traumatized? Ok. LOL.


Yeah, you wouldn't be if you are not in the USA, and half the USA doesn't understand. Slavery happened. Ethnic division and sins have happened in every country. The USA has tried to move on, but politicians have used this "black thing" as a stupid talking point for decades. Basically lie to them about how oppressed they are, and "we will help you", to get votes. In short, they try to make blacks feel like they are less...... 

Morgan Freeman is old enough now to see this for what it is...... a political puppet show. He does not want a black history month, an MLK day, etc. It is all part of history, but political parties segregate beyond belief!!!! Listen to Biden talk sometime!


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## Zedd (Jul 27, 2021)

bobsmith said:


> Yeah, you wouldn't be if you are not in the USA, and half the USA doesn't understand. Slavery happened. Ethnic division and sins have happened in every country. The USA has tried to move on, but politicians have used this "black thing" as a stupid talking point for decades. Basically lie to them about how oppressed they are, and "we will help you", to get votes. In short, they try to make blacks feel like they are less......


I live in the USA. I'm educated - two doctorates I earned, in addition to one honorary due to my work in the business world. I'm black. I know full well what the score is.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Zedd said:


> So, are you going to tell me how "back in the day, all the racists were actually democrats" like things don't change over time?
> Or, are you going to tell me how Democrats are currently screwing me over now? Because, I'll tell you what, for all their flaws, it sure as **** wasn't a bunch of democrat police officers that held me overnight on suspicion of DUI in the middle of nowhere Kentucky when I hadn't had anything to drink in two weeks, nor had any reason to be pulled over. I'll give you one guess as to why, and even give you a hint, it's not because "All non-liberals don't care about racial issues"


All the racists were Democrats. The Republican party was established as the anti-slave party.
Democrats are screwing over Americans right now.
I'm sorry for your experience, but that doesn't change that the liberal philosophy is at the root of all the worst crimes against humanity in the 20th century. 
250 million murdered.
The majority of the major wars started.
Over a billion people enslaved.
By the hard liberal.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> Of course, just not many use guns thankfully.


No. They just use acid and their hands and feet.


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## m.t.t (Oct 5, 2016)

bobsmith said:


> I find it odd that which ever God you elect as your "maker" decided that you shall see colors. To see a difference. The fact that you describe a "gray" cat. But you are now going to tell me that I am not allowed to see a color different in humans. Only kitty cats, and probably every other worldly creation.....just not humans..... you are zinging off the confused and brain washed charts! When they stop asking for ethnicity on federal and college documents, I will become color blind. but I am reminded daily by the media that I am white so therefore I have a special "privilege". So apparently the media is not color blind either.
> 
> Again, I made an observation. Study some LEO education and realize they are ALL RACIST!!!! They are taught to profile and describe what they see! Skin color being one of them. I kid you not! Can you believe it?


UMM I was being ironic with the grey cat reference.

of course I can see colour, how foolish to think I'm saying I don't. I just don't make assumptions based on the colour of a person's skin. The term black men was used to not describe the men but their character. Innocent black men get shot because they are perceived by people to be the criminal and the ones that are trying to help. This happens all the time by trigger happy idiots that are allowed a gun in America.

People are just people. I bet you walk up to tall kids and say so you play basketball, what really you don't, but you are tall you must be good! lol


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> I
> Of course not. Just pointing out that gun use isn't that common here among criminals compared to the USA. Someone just found with a gun, or who has a gun in their home will get a stiff sentence. It's just not accepted here.
> Not sure why it scares you, I am not scared. Crime happens, we have a good police force, we are not living in fear of being shot.


When seconds count, the police are minutes away.

I don’t want to argue about this because we are in completely different cultures and mindsets. I certainly don’t want to disturb your peace. My only concern is for your safety, and frankly, that’s me minding your business, which is none of my business. 😉. Be safe. If things get bad, come to Texas and I will protect you. With my guns. 😉🇺🇸


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## Zedd (Jul 27, 2021)

jonty30 said:


> All the racists were Democrats. The Republican party was established as the anti-slave party.
> Democrats are screwing over Americans right now.
> I'm sorry for your experience, but that doesn't change that the liberal philosophy is at the root of all the worst crimes against humanity in the 20th century.
> 250 million murdered.
> ...


your understanding or lack there of, of the nuance of things, makes me sad.

yes, death to all liberals.


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## bobsmith (Oct 15, 2012)

OP THOUGHTS
It is very interesting seeing how my thread has turned and dived. ALL the critique has been on me, my decision, about my personal choice (your welcome) to carry a firearm, and that the perps were black. Absolutely NO ONE has even talked about the criminals. They caused the entire thing, yet they are invisible in this discussion. 

This is precisely what society has become. Let's get one thing clear, we would not have to talk about guns, carry guns, do bad things with them, or even think of hurting anyone, if there were not criminals that started this. 

I am really sad that I live in a world where half of the population thinks criminals should have rights. Boy does their tune change once they become a statistic, but until then, I am held to the highest standard possible, while criminals can make a wake of destruction and they are spared. 

I am reminded of Kyle Rittenhouse. Peeple said, "he should not be there with a rifle". Sure.... And people should not have been there trying to burn down businesses for fun, and the "cops" who were paid to protect and serve, probably should have tried that. Then he was attacked with zero question that they were looking to kill him, he shot them, and he got to deal with months of shi6 before finally being set free! Why do I bring this up? Because the ACTUAL PERPS were never even charged!!! One was a convicted felon with a firearm and drew that weapon. 

Someone really needs to pay attention as a world gives more rights, freedoms, and exclusions to criminals than honest citizens. It's all pretty scary! And the fact that one member basically warns me that if I happen to engage a criminal, in an act of crime, I might spend my life behind bars...wow. Did he happen to think what would happen if the criminal shot and killed me? What would happen? Probably nothing! These are the things we have to look at!


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## Zedd (Jul 27, 2021)

bobsmith said:


> I am really sad that I live in a world where half of the population thinks criminals should have rights. Boy does their tune change once they become a statistic, but until then, I am held to the highest standard possible, while criminals can make a wake of destruction and they are spared.


So, we should take away the rights of all criminals? Wait until you hear about DUIs and stuff.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

No one cares when criminals kill good people. But when good people kill criminals, all we hear about is how good people need to be stopped. It’s madness.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

bobsmith said:


> Like I say, I realize I am a minority here. I personally don't have that gear to walk away, especially when I see an employee in a situation. If it means eating a bullet, so be it. I am not going to try to defend my mentality here, as a minority but this "it's just booze" is exactly what criminals want you to think. Then "it is just a car", then "just a life". Anyone LEO/VET knows this.
> 
> But when I said "I don't have my side arm", that does NOT mean I had intentions to use it. I have been in serious situations before. The issue is it limited my options if things escalated. For that reason alone, I now realize I have to review my CCH plan, even in light Summer clothes. IT SUCKS! I hate doing it, but I refuse to become a statistic.
> 
> EDIT: I wanted to share a quick story just to rebut ANYONE that thinks the "cops" are going to come save you! A 22yo girl was dog sitting and called 911 that the dogs were attacking and trying to kill her. The cops arrived and did not enter the home for 37 MINUTES!!!!! They will literally wait until the shooting stops, and collect the dead bodies and "do a report". I have seen this play out so many times in my career that I have lost count. YOU better learn to cover your own 6 or learn to run like lighting.


But in this instance no one needed saving. If someone did I would have a different opinion. To be blunt, it may cost you your life. Seems like a poor deal for some bottles of beer. Just saying.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Zedd said:


> your understanding or lack there of, of the nuance of things, makes me sad.
> 
> yes, death to all liberals.


I don't wish them death, but I wish they'd come to understand that using people for one's personal benefit cannot be excused. 

I cannot excuse that any more than Southern American enslaver before the Civil War. I cannot see how people can see that as acceptable belief system.


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## Zedd (Jul 27, 2021)

Ok, genuinely curious. In the world of jonty30, what things do I, Zedd, believe as a liberal that is ruining this world on a daily basis. I'm curious to see what I believe. I won't even mock it and reply. I'll just roll my eyes privately and not respond.

Because, here's the thing. The world isn't binary. It's not black & white, right or wrong. The world is flipping gray. There's nuance to everything. To use the OP's scenario here as an example, had I seen exactly what he saw, rather than thinking "oh ****, I wish I had my gun," my first thought would have been, "well, if they need it that bad..." and then bought the f'n liquor for them. That said, I'm aware not everyone is in a financial situation to do that, but that would have been my first thought.

But, what do I know. I'm just a terrible liberal.

Everyone has bad days and makes bad choices sometimes.


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Zedd said:


> Ok, genuinely curious. In the world of jonty30, what things do I, Zedd, believe as a liberal that is ruining this world on a daily basis. I'm curious to see what I believe. I won't even mock it and reply. I'll just roll my eyes privately and not respond.
> 
> Because, here's the thing. The world isn't binary. It's not black & white, right or wrong. The world is flipping gray. There's nuance to everything. To use the OP's scenario here as an example, had I seen exactly what he saw, rather than thinking "oh ****, I wish I had my gun," my first thought would have been, "well, if they need it that bad..." and then bought the f'n liquor for them. That said, I'm aware not everyone is in a financial situation to do that, but that would have been my first thought.
> 
> ...


So, you're saying, in your non-binary works, that it can be acceptable to use people until they get used up for your personal benefit.

That doesn't work for me.

Here is the problem of liberalism, in my books. They mix the separate functions of should-dos with the must-dos. The should-dos are the stuff the people should do. Charity, mercy, care, etc. The must-do's are the stuff that is enforced by law. You can be killed for refusing a must-do, even minor ones. 

What liberals tend to do is mix the should-do's with the must-do's. They want government to mandate charity, kindness, mercy, care. In a liberal world, if I refuse to meet the arbitrary standard of goodness, as determined by the liberal, I can be killed if I am prepared to resist to that point. That's offensive to me.


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## Zedd (Jul 27, 2021)

jonty30 said:


> So, you're saying, in your non-binary works, that it can be acceptable to use people until they get used up for your personal benefit.
> 
> That doesn't work for me.


You keep saying that like it's a liberal ethos of some kind. It's not. No matter how many times you say it, doesn't make it true.

For that matter, it most certainly can be applied to almost anything - White Supremacists aligning with the religious right to meet mutual goals, for example. In no way do I think a "conservative christian" shares the ideals of a 3%er or Proud Boy or whomever, but if you don't think they're not using each other to get their people in office, you're kidding yourself.


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## bobsmith (Oct 15, 2012)

Zedd said:


> Ok, genuinely curious. In the world of jonty30, what things do I, Zedd, believe as a liberal that is ruining this world on a daily basis. I'm curious to see what I believe. I won't even mock it and reply. I'll just roll my eyes privately and not respond.
> 
> Because, here's the thing. The world isn't binary. It's not black & white, right or wrong. The world is flipping gray. There's nuance to everything. To use the OP's scenario here as an example, had I seen exactly what he saw, rather than thinking "oh ****, I wish I had my gun," my first thought would have been, "well, if they need it that bad..." and then bought the f'n liquor for them. That said, I'm aware not everyone is in a financial situation to do that, but that would have been my first thought.
> 
> ...


Oh isn't that an exquisite reply. You would "buy it for them".....LMFAO. Get out of here with that. This right here tells me everything. Do you buy your local drug thug drugs because he can't afford them? If you are that "white", you need to head to Chicago and hand out free liquor. my guess is you won't survive the night, but what do I know. You are just trying to help. 

It's a reality that some people cannot even comprehend the mind of a criminal. Let me help break this down for you. You try to hand a criminal a $20, thinking it will help him and he will thank you. You are so wonderful. Actually what that criminal is thinking is if you can just hand out a $20, you probably have thousands in your pocket, and your life is not worth that. He will be back in 45 seconds with a baseball bat, finish you off, take everything on you, and take your car. 

Really, until you can get in that mindset, you need to STFU. That is how the criminal mind works. They don't take because they "need", or they would be taking all the steaks at wally.


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## Zedd (Jul 27, 2021)

bobsmith said:


> Oh isn't that an exquisite reply. You would "buy it for them".....LMFAO. Get out of here with that. This right here tells me everything. Do you buy your local drug thug drugs because he can't afford them? If you are that "white", you need to head to Chicago and hand out free liquor. my guess is you won't survive the night, but what do I know. You are just trying to help.


I've literally, on multiple occasions given my shoes to homeless people on my way home. Now, I'm not giving out my Jordan 11s or anything, but general trainers - yeah. So, yeah, I'd have no problem buying the liquor for them. I've done it for panhandlers too. Ask them what they want as I'm going in somewhere to get fast food or whatever. One time one said a bottle of rum as a joke, so I got him a bottle of rum. You never know what deed you might do or thing you might say that could change someone's life.

Sorry you're so cynical.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Zedd said:


> You keep saying that like it's a liberal ethos of some kind. It's not. No matter how many times you say it, doesn't make it true.
> 
> For that matter, it most certainly can be applied to almost anything - White Supremacists aligning with the religious right to meet mutual goals, for example. In no way do I think a "conservative christian" shares the ideals of a 3%er or Proud Boy or whomever, but if you don't think they're not using each other to get their people in office, you're kidding yourself.


It is a liberal ethos. The moment you say something like, "I support public healthcare" you've thrown support behind the idea of using people until they are used up for your personal benefit. 

Anybody using government to enforce their beliefs is on the left. Statism and individualism are opposite belief systems from each other. You can be less or more individualistic or statist, until you are moderate enough to stand beside each other, but as they divurge, they move away from each other to opposite ends of the political spectrum.


----------



## Zedd (Jul 27, 2021)

jonty30 said:


> The moment you say something like, "I support public healthcare" you've thrown support behind the idea of using people until they are used up for your personal benefit.


Expand please. I don't follow. How does supporting public healthcare mean I'm using everyone up for my personal benefit?


----------



## Zedd (Jul 27, 2021)

jonty30 said:


> Anybody using government to enforce their beliefs is on the left.


Does this apply to law enforcement, fire departments, or the military?


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Zedd said:


> Expand please. I don't follow. How does supporting public healthcare mean I'm using everyone up for my personal benefit?


You're forcing people like me to have to work longer and harder to compensate for the money taken for the benefit of the liberal. I don't benefit from public healthcare, because I find it offensive.


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## bobsmith (Oct 15, 2012)

Zedd said:


> I've literally, on multiple occasions given my shoes to homeless people on my way home. Now, I'm not giving out my Jordan 11s or anything, but general trainers - yeah. So, yeah, I'd have no problem buying the liquor for them. I've done it for panhandlers too. Ask them what they want as I'm going in somewhere to get fast food or whatever. One time one said a bottle of rum as a joke, so I got him a bottle of rum. You never know what deed you might do or thing you might say that could change someone's life.
> 
> Sorry you're so cynical.


And now you are trying to compare homeless to career criminals.

I am not opposed to giving, and I do plenty for others, but I am trying to warn you that your clouded mind is likely to make you a statistic in the local news someday.

Jeez, I think I did mention I have family that did 30yrs as an LEO, and a classmate that heads the LE homeless outreach team. Most of them are on the street due to addiction, but you are being SO "white" by feeding their addiction, convinced you are helping. Newsflash, you are NOT helping anyone by supplying booze, ever! You can mark that guaranteed!

Though I do appreciate your desire to help. You just need to get educated on who you are helping and how.


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Zedd said:


> Does this apply to law enforcement, fire departments, or the military?


If they are operating in their spheres, without pouring over outside their ministry, no. 

Law enforcement is supposed to enforce law, but the law needs to be just.
Fire departments are cost efficient when spread over the entire population 
Military protects the country. That's why it is forbidden to use the military within the country. 

If you want to have social spending, keep it out of the hands of government.


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## Zedd (Jul 27, 2021)

bobsmith said:


> Newsflash, you are NOT helping anyone by supplying booze, ever.


if I kept them from mugging someone later so they could go buy booze, I certainly did.

The world isn't binary.


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## Zedd (Jul 27, 2021)

bobsmith said:


> but you are being SO "white"


and honestly, is this a compliment, or an insult? I'm not sure. I mean, I'm black, but nearly all of my family is white. Which part of us should be annoyed by this?


----------



## bobsmith (Oct 15, 2012)

Zedd said:


> if I kept them from mugging someone later so they could go buy booze, I certainly did.
> 
> The world isn't binary.


I realize people rarely change. You certainly won't until you actually get to see the consequence of what you are doing, but you go man!!!! You are so clouded that you think feeding an addict his fix for the day is helping something. Luckily most of us can see the flaws in that logic.


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## Zedd (Jul 27, 2021)

jonty30 said:


> If you want to have social spending, keep it out of the hands of government.


Ok, I think I'm getting there. So, we're getting rid of all the subsidies that help the rural communities get access to stuff that's really only cost-effective in the urban & suburban settings, right?


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## Zedd (Jul 27, 2021)

bobsmith said:


> I realize people rarely change. You certainly won't until you actually get to see the consequence of what you are doing, but you go man!!!! You are so clouded that you think feeding an addict his fix for the day is helping something. Luckily most of us can see the flaws in that logic.


you're probably right. maybe someday I'll figure out how to help people the right way.

by the way, I originally said the person was a panhandler. You assumed he's an addict.


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Zedd said:


> and honestly, is this a compliment, or an insult? I'm not sure. I mean, I'm black, but nearly all of my family is white. Which part of us should be annoyed by this?





Zedd said:


> Ok, I think I'm getting there. So, we're getting rid of all the subsidies that help the rural communities get access to stuff that's really only cost-effective in the urban & suburban settings, right?


Price of being rural. I can tell you, as a country child, nothing pleased me more than being left alone.

The problem with social spending is that it eventually must come to a stop, because those who want social spending eventually putspend their future and the thing falls apart.


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## bobsmith (Oct 15, 2012)

Zedd said:


> you're probably right. maybe someday I'll figure out how to help people the right way.
> 
> by the way, I originally said the person was a panhandler. You assumed he's an addict.


 Go review your reply. Regardless, it doesn't matter. Someone other than me will have to enlighten you, but this most certainly would change your stance in why I have such an issue with theft, and you apparently think it's just fine. If I told you that booze they stole is likely being traded for heroin (which is a very real possibility), you would either chose not to believe it, or chose to look the other way. Either way, that is a passive emotional response.....a lack of acceptance of the reality you live in. 

Really, I have followed the chain of criminals from petty theft, the murder. That is the path. For some reason, people get all tasseled once they finally kill, but think it is innocent on the ride up. 

I have met world famous serial killers. Something many lack is remorse and empathy. Criminals don't pause in pulling the trigger because they don't want to kill you, they are thinking about how many years they might get. As well, most of them have no self control so they go off like a light switch.


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## Zedd (Jul 27, 2021)

I know what my reply was. It was presenting a scenario in which it would be fine. The reality of my example was it was a group of college kids near campus who where literally panhandling to get a few more dollars to get a bottle. I asked them if they were looking to just go drink, or go an enjoy some drinks. I'd have gotten them a nice bottle if they weren't going to just make rum and cokes. I also checked to make sure they were 21. I'm not totally irresponsible. They were just broke college kids. As I said, the world isn't binary.

The reality is, as someone else mentioned, the kids being black in your story was utterly irrelevant except for the purposes of relaying it to the police, which wasn't part of your story. Everything else outside of your friend telling them to put it back was complete and utter supposition by you. The smaller kid was equally if not more likely to be holding his phone in his pocket as a gun. Either way, you really don't know. You're just making a guess, and it makes for a better story if it's a gun.

I'm bored with this now. I'm going to bed.


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## bobsmith (Oct 15, 2012)

Zedd said:


> I know what my reply was. It was presenting a scenario in which it would be fine. The reality of my example was it was a group of college kids near campus who where literally panhandling to get a few more dollars to get a bottle. I asked them if they were looking to just go drink, or go an enjoy some drinks. I'd have gotten them a nice bottle if they weren't going to just make rum and cokes. I also checked to make sure they were 21. I'm not totally irresponsible. They were just broke college kids. As I said, the world isn't binary.
> 
> The reality is, as someone else mentioned, the kids being black in your story was utterly irrelevant except for the purposes of relaying it to the police, which wasn't part of your story. Everything else outside of your friend telling them to put it back was complete and utter supposition by you. The smaller kid was equally if not more likely to be holding his phone in his pocket as a gun. Either way, you really don't know. You're just making a guess, and it makes for a better story if it's a gun.
> 
> I'm bored with this now. I'm going to bed.


So your "panhandlers" were actually college kids. lol. What gold. 

And you are quite confused about my encounter. "Your friend" is not right. I never claimed a friend. I said I saw the store employee dealing with these guys, and I know him. As in, I have been there before. I don't even know his name. 
and the "kids" in your story happen to be about 40yo. I appreciate your claim about "it was just a cell phone", but I'd roll some heavy dice on that bet. These guys were experienced criminals. 

Tell you what, next time I see someone get in pinch, I will get my cell phone out so I can record the beating, get it on all my socials, and cash in!!! That's what people do today!


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## hairyhead (Oct 30, 2015)

Why do I hear banjo music in my head?

God bless 'merica and the right to bear arms!

@Diana7 it's not worth the argument. The good citizens of America have guns drummed into them from an early age and cannot see there are alternative and more successful ways to police.

Just let them get on with shooting each other.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

hairyhead said:


> Why do I hear banjo music in my head?
> 
> God bless 'merica and the right to bear arms!
> 
> ...


Is there a more successful way to defend your country against invasion?
You know, like the Ukraine?
How many wars in Europe so far, since 1776?
How many wars in America since 1776?


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## hairyhead (Oct 30, 2015)

jonty30 said:


> Is there a more successful way to defend your country against invasion?
> You know, like the Ukraine?
> How many wars in Europe so far, since 1776?
> How many wars in America since 1776?


FFS gun ownership by the populous has nothing to do with defence of the country.


By the way have a look at the stats globally and you'll see how sick the USA is as a result of an poorly controlled firearms.



Gun Deaths by Country 2022




Countries with the Highest Total Gun Deaths (all causes) in 2019
Brazil (49436)
United States (37038)
Venezuela (28515)
Mexico (22116)
India (14710)
Colombia (13169)
Philippines (9267)
Guatemala (5980)


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

hairyhead said:


> FFS gun ownership by the populous has nothing to do with defence of the country.
> 
> 
> By the way have a look at the stats globally and you'll see how sick the USA is as a result of an poorly controlled firearms.
> ...


The US is the only country that doesn't need a standing army, because there are more hunters in the US than all the militaries of the world combined.

It is the reason why General Yamamato refused to invade the US. He said it couldn't be done.

The number of people who die unlawfully, meaning not as a result of suicide or being killed through criminal activity is about 3200. A drop in the statistical bucket for a country the size of the US.

I can't help theiberal fears of their neighbour. Let us know when you get the most violent country in Europe under control, then you can tell us how to do things.


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## hairyhead (Oct 30, 2015)

jonty30 said:


> The US is the only country that doesn't need a standing army, because there are more hunters in the US than all the militaries of the world combined.
> 
> It is the reason why General Yamamato refused to invade the US. He said it couldn't be done.
> 
> ...


And you think the US has a healthy relationship with guns?


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

hairyhead said:


> And you think the US has a healthy relationship with guns?


Yes.
I have no problem with it at all. I am more bothered by the idea that I can be made to serve the liberal than whether my neighbour has an arsenal of weapons.

It is thanks to those guns that socialism hasn't taken the US yet, while the rest of the world is lost to socialism. In the rest of the world, people are made unwillingly to serve the liberal. That would happen in the US if it weren't for the guns in the hands of the citizenry.

The Forefathers knew what the were doing.


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

[


hairyhead said:


> Why do I hear banjo music in my head?
> 
> God bless 'merica and the right to bear arms!
> 
> ...


I agree! God bless America and our constitutional right to bear arms. I think the next time I hit the range, I will take my external speaker and play banjo music. Hopefully no one shoots me 😂

I wish some gun manufacturer would make a really high quality AR-15 and call it the 1776 model.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> Of course, just not many use guns thankfully.


Makes rape and murder so much more civilized I'm guessing.😵‍💫


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

bobsmith said:


> I have met world famous serial killers. Something many lack is remorse and empathy. Criminals don't pause in pulling the trigger because they don't want to kill you, they are thinking about how many years they might get. As well, most of them have no self control so they go off like a light switch.


That's nothing! I met Mike Tyson on the street a month after winning the title and beat him so bad that he cried and begged me to stop. Another time, I successfully cured a man of an std from a Kardashian.


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## hairyhead (Oct 30, 2015)

Amazing how so many people can be so deluded to their own ****-show situation.


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

For those who say wait for, or call the cops.
Cops have no duty or obligation to protect you. They are law enforcement agents only.
been trying to tell people that for nigh on 10 years.

Edit: The old deputy sheriffs in my neck of the woods were telling people that 30-40 ago. 
Their job is to serve warrants, make arrests after the fact.


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

red oak said:


> For those who say wait for, or call the cops.
> Cops have no duty or obligation to protect you. They are law enforcement agents only.
> been trying to tell people that for nigh on 10 years.
> 
> ...


I am curious to where you got that information from? The primary duty of a cop is to protect life, and enforce the law.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I'm very big on situational awareness and being able to quickly assess circumstances. I have family in law enforcement who I talk about this stuff with. A lifetime ago I worked with troubled kids, and being able to gauge the spectrum from friendly to about to pop, I believe is a pretty important skill to have. I also believe it is very important to keep ego out of any encounter that has the potential to escalate. 

It seems an odd thing when I discuss it with friends, or even my kids, but I fundamentally believe that being able to recognize dangerous people is very important skill set. 

No doubt in my mind that you read that scenario right. And I suspect ... they read you right. Totally understand your frustration. Frustration that stems from who you are and how you define and conduct yourself. But ... given that, you also likely know what the outcomes would have been if you, or they, had chosen to escalate. Would have gone way, way, sideways.

Often the right decision isn't a decision we necessarily like.

Doesn't need to change who you are. Process it, be angry and frustrated. But don't ruminate over it. I admire your principles. 

And as a side note, I carry my sig p365 xl with an optic, appendix with sweats and a t-shirt if I'm out walking or hiking. Does not print. At all. Pocket .380 may be an option as well?


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> I am curious to where you got that information from? The primary duty of a cop is to protect life, and enforce the law.


 🤣 Can’t help laughing.
Have you been living under a rock?
Number one was the deputies in my area growing up stating the fact it was our responsibility to protect ourselves. Not theirs.
Then their are the court cases.
How many court cases do you want?
_Heres couple of the more recent for you to start with: Warren v. District of Columbia_, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. Ct. of App. 1981)
This one clarifies previous rulings.


> In _DeShaney v. Winnebago County Department of Social Services_, 489 U.S. 189 (1989), the U.S. Supreme Court held that the only duties of care required by the Constitution are those extended to individuals who are restrained by the government and therefore unable to protect themselves. This includes prisoners and involuntarily committed mental patients.


I thought it finally became common knowledge after the Florida school incident where the deputy refused to engage the shooters. It was *finally* all over the news that police have no duty to protect you.


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

red oak said:


> 🤣 Can’t help laughing.
> Have you been living under a rock?
> Number one was the deputies in my area growing up stating the fact it was our responsibility to protect ourselves. Not theirs.
> Then their are the court cases.
> ...


You are judging all of police from a social services court case and your experience with some backwoods sheriff's office from growing up?

And you wonder if I am living under a rock?..... You seriously cannot make this stuff up 😂


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> You are judging all of police from a social services court case and your experience with some backwoods sheriff's office from growing up?
> 
> And you wonder if I am living under a rock?..... You seriously cannot make this stuff up 😂


You just like to disagree to remain in your delusional world of make believe. Whatever makes you feel you have no obligations I guess.

And you just insulted every law enforcement officer in my family who know it as well.
Wake up.
Here’s you a link to police chief magazine. And another link to criminal defense both stating the same.
It amazes me people cry freedom yet know nothing about the country they live in and are so willfully ignorant as to how this free country is supposed to remain free and that with said freedom comes a responsiblity to always be vigilant. 🤦🏼‍♂️ One of those responsibilities is to look out for yourself, family, and community. *It is not some responsibility that was, or will be abdicated to the state.* It’s part of self-determination and responsibility. Is it really that hard to understand?
Edit: I said it that’s just a couple of the court cases. Cases dealing with it go back to 1800’s and the beginnings of the “police force” and its creation. Once you’ve Spent at least a few weeks researching it you may be able to discuss it intelligently.








Chief's Counsel: No Duty to Protect: Two Exceptions - Police Chief Magazine


Law enforcement generally does not have a federal constitutional duty to protect one private person from another. For example, if a drunk driver injures a pedestrian or a drug dealer beats up an informant, agencies and their officers usually would not be liable for those injuries because there...




www.policechiefmagazine.org








__





Police Not Required to Protect; Are They Required to Serve? | Criminal Legal News






www.criminallegalnews.org


----------



## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

red oak said:


> You just like to disagree to remain in your delusional world of make believe. Whatever makes you feel you have no obligations I guess.
> 
> And you just insulted every law enforcement officer in my family who know it as well.
> Wake up.
> ...


No, they are not liable for something that happens out of their control as they are not personal bodyguards. But they will intervene when they see someone that is about to cause harm to a person or persons.

From what you say, it sounds like the cops in your family are the type that are giving police a bad name and couldn't care less about the oath of their job.

And I don't need to see some ridiculous court cases to see the good that cops do. All we hear about are bad apples across the country. But there are thousands of cops across the country that perform good deeds and protect life and property on a daily basis. And again, I don't need to see some nonsense court case to know that.


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> No, they are not liable for something that happens out of their control as they are not personal bodyguards. But they will intervene when they see someone that is about to cause harm to a person or persons.
> 
> From what you say, it sounds like the cops in your family are the type that are giving police a bad name and couldn't care less about the oath of their job.
> 
> And I don't need to see some ridiculous court cases to see the good that cops do. All we hear about are bad apples across the country. But there are thousands of cops across the country that perform good deeds and protect life and property on a daily basis. And again, I don't need to see some nonsense court case to know that.


Go argue it the federal judge then. Cops were at the school and did nothing while students were getting slaughtered and federal judge overturned lower court ruling confirming again *“No Duty To Protect!”*








Federal Judge Rules Cops, Schools Had No Duty To Shield Students In Parkland Massacre Lawsuit


A federal judge on Monday ruled that Broward County schools and the Sheriff’s Office had no legal duty to protect and shield students during the shooting that occurred at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Fla., last February, reports The Sun-Sentinel. The Florida newspaper...




theguardiansofdemocracy.com





No police officer is required to intervene even if they are there watching it.


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> From what you say, it sounds like the cops in your family are the type that are giving police a bad name and couldn't care less about the oath of their job.
> 
> And I don't need to see some ridiculous court cases to see the good that cops do. All we hear about are bad apples across the country.


The point is whether they go in, or not is a personal choice because job of police is not About protecting you or the community. It is about enforcing statutes. *Period!*
I know it goes against the cult indoctrination you’ve been under your entire life, and it’s difficult to grasp and understand at first.
I can see it’s hitting against that indoctrination by your obvious insulting lashing out statements.

Also why I said you need to spend a few weeks; maybe even a few months; studying court cases; and it seems, History of the US and what a constitutional duty is. Until then your knee jerk reactions prevent you from being able to discuss it intelligently.
It’s your duty to learn. Not my responsibility to put up with your insults to teach you.


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## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

It's natural to want to step in and stop it because I, like you, get pissed that criminal sh**heads get away with this crap.

I know what I'd WANT to do, is grab a bottle of Jack Daniel's and crack them over the head with it.

But you didn't know if they had a gun or not. Unless that gun is pointed right at your face in distance that you could do something, you don't know how it's going to go down. You need to think about your life.

You chose the right path. Let the employee contact the cops and show them the video footage.


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## bobsmith (Oct 15, 2012)

Deejo said:


> I'm very big on situational awareness and being able to quickly assess circumstances. I have family in law enforcement who I talk about this stuff with. A lifetime ago I worked with troubled kids, and being able to gauge the spectrum from friendly to about to pop, I believe is a pretty important skill to have. I also believe it is very important to keep ego out of any encounter that has the potential to escalate.
> 
> It seems an odd thing when I discuss it with friends, or even my kids, but I fundamentally believe that being able to recognize dangerous people is very important skill set.
> 
> ...


I appreciate it! This one frustrated me a bit, but I know I was chill and level as it gets. I just need to do a rethink on my sidearm. I am now trying to find a different full support belt, and possibly give into a smaller frame weapon for Summer carry. I don't like it, but better than having nothing. Our state is open carry as well. No issue printing, etc. 

I think we all get dinged by the 'gun free' folks, assuming we are out looking for a mess. Millions of CCH guys out there in the USA, and I hardly know of any that have ever needed them, but when they do, we are talking like bullets already flying in a Walmart, and a clear case of "things need done". 

EDIT: bunch of words deleted here because 'certain' people are losing their minds.....

Some think I am out looking for trouble. I can't help that I can read people. In the above, if I wanted to play teen cop, I could have had them all down on the ground at gun point, but I played their game, collected all the evidence, handed it to the chief, and they got a warrant and did an official tappy tap. Countless stolen goods.


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## bobsmith (Oct 15, 2012)

red oak said:


> The point is whether they go in, or not is a personal choice because job of police is not About protecting you or the community. It is about enforcing statutes. *Period!*
> I know it goes against the cult indoctrination you’ve been under your entire life, and it’s difficult to grasp and understand at first.
> I can see it’s hitting against that indoctrination by your obvious insulting lashing out statements.
> 
> ...


While one can only hope that people that decide to become an LEO would feel that higher calling to "protect", I firmly agree that people really need to grasp and understand that when the bullets start flying, the cops are going to hide like everyone else! If you think they are going to "come save you", you need more education. They will help get you in the ambulance. 

A few pages back, I shared a video that no one cares about. A young lady was dog sitting and the POS dogs turned on her, trying to kill her. She managed to call 911, and the cops waited 37 MINUTES before entering!!!!! I am sorry, I think most badges I know, even myself, would have made entry immediately and put the dogs down. I am a dog guy too! And I know once a dog "goes there", they cannot be saved. That young lady is lucky to be alive, but her injuries are horrific. 

But it stands as a PERFECT example to be vigilant, have some sort of plan, and don't bank on the cops to save you.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> No, they are not liable for something that happens out of their control as they are not personal bodyguards. But they will intervene when they see someone that is about to cause harm to a person or persons.
> 
> From what you say, it sounds like the cops in your family are the type that are giving police a bad name and couldn't care less about the oath of their job.
> 
> And I don't need to see some ridiculous court cases to see the good that cops do. All we hear about are bad apples across the country. But there are thousands of cops across the country that perform good deeds and protect life and property on a daily basis. And again, I don't need to see some nonsense court case to know that.


They actually won’t step in. Police are there to clean up the mess and file a report. They have no duty to protect anyone or stop any crimes. Some would, but most won’t, because they’ll never lose their job or be sued for doing nothing. They will stand by and watch crimes being committed. They might chase the bad guy after, but they won’t interfere. Your safety is your responsibility alone. The way police are treated these days, it’s no wonder.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Yeah a lot of my life I've lived in rural areas (a farm, and now "out in the country") and police are at least 30+ minutes away--if they come at breakneck speed! To me, that means I have to be able to hold my own for 30 minutes. 

In addition, when I lived in the city during an active shooter situation in a school, the police "secured the perimeter" so that no one was getting in or out--and then they coordinated what best tactic to use for officer safety, taking a couple hours to determine the tactic. While they were securing and coordinating, the students and teachers were trapped in the school and gunshoots could be heard and no one "ran in to save them." 

And I'm not being mean, but that is the way many officers think: secure the perimeter and coordinate. There's nothing wrong with making sure no MORE shooters come in, or making sure officers are safe. But reality is that it's very rare for a police officer to get there in a few seconds and jump in front of that bullet for you. Lots of times they arrive after it's all over, the criminal is gone, and they "make a report" and investigate.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

hairyhead said:


> Why do I hear banjo music in my head?
> 
> God bless 'merica and the right to bear arms!
> 
> ...


Oh I'm very good with my hands as well.

BTW, try and keep up. Legal gun owners, including myself, aren't shooting anyone for the most part or getting shot ourselves.

Make up all the fiction you want about yourself though.😉


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> You are judging all of police from a social services court case and your experience with some backwoods sheriff's office from growing up?
> 
> And you wonder if I am living under a rock?..... You seriously cannot make this stuff up 😂


It's verified information. Police broke no laws several years ago watching a young man get his brains beat out in a Seattle "protest".

They stood and watched a murder, did nothing and were not dismissed, reprimanded or charged with anything. They are under no legal obligation to protect anyone.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> No, they are not liable for something that happens out of their control as they are not personal bodyguards. But they will intervene when they see someone that is about to cause harm to a person or persons.
> 
> From what you say, it sounds like the cops in your family are the type that are giving police a bad name and couldn't care less about the oath of their job.
> 
> And I don't need to see some ridiculous court cases to see the good that cops do. All we hear about are bad apples across the country. But there are thousands of cops across the country that perform good deeds and protect life and property on a daily basis. And again, I don't need to see some nonsense court case to know that.


It doesn't matter what you see because you certainly know better.😋


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Affaircare said:


> Yeah a lot of my life I've lived in rural areas (a farm, and now "out in the country") and police are at least 30+ minutes away--if they come at breakneck speed! To me, that means I have to be able to hold my own for 30 minutes.


As it should be, IMHO. I too live in a rural setting, and I would not want to live in the society where I knew a police officer was not more than 60 seconds away, for what that would imply.


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

bobsmith said:


> While one can only hope that people that decide to become an LEO would feel that higher calling to "protect", I firmly agree that people really need to grasp and understand that when the bullets start flying, the cops are going to hide like everyone else! If you think they are going to "come save you", you need more education. They will help get you in the ambulance.
> 
> A few pages back, I shared a video that no one cares about. A young lady was dog sitting and the POS dogs turned on her, trying to kill her. She managed to call 911, and the cops waited 37 MINUTES before entering!!!!! I am sorry, I think most badges I know, even myself, would have made entry immediately and put the dogs down. I am a dog guy too! And I know once a dog "goes there", they cannot be saved. That young lady is lucky to be alive, but her injuries are horrific.
> 
> But it stands as a PERFECT example to be vigilant, have some sort of plan, and don't bank on the cops to save you.


I saw that post.
It amazes me how little people born in US know about this country, constitutional responsibility, and what self determination means. 🤷🏼‍♂️
In 1983 we had a rent house and the woman renting it had an XH come over and stir crap and break in on her.
Since it was right behind ours and we had to fix door we were there when deputies showed up.
Short version he told us: even if there were more than 2 deputies for our county they cant Be everywhere and even if they could it’s our responsibility to look out for ourselves.
Then told her to buy a gun because her life was her responsibility to protect not his to protect. Just don’t shoot an unarmed person in your yard.
I was young but remember it well.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

red oak said:


> I saw that post.
> It amazes me how little people born in US know about this country, constitutional responsibility, and what self determination means. 🤷🏼‍♂️
> In 1983 we had a rent house and the woman renting it had an XH come over and stir crap and break in on her.
> Since it was right behind ours and we had to fix door we were there when deputies showed up.
> ...


This is such a great point about culture. The price of freedom is responsibility. We don’t want a government powerful enough to take care of us, we want to do it ourselves. Sometimes that is hard. (Usually it is, it’s way easier to be a child and expect others to do for you than to suck it up) People from other countries sniff down their noses at our “gun culture,” but what we have is “personal responsibility.” Unfortunately this generation of politicians wants to live like children instead of like Americans.


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## bobsmith (Oct 15, 2012)

red oak said:


> I saw that post.
> It amazes me how little people born in US know about this country, constitutional responsibility, and what self determination means. 🤷🏼‍♂️
> In 1983 we had a rent house and the woman renting it had an XH come over and stir crap and break in on her.
> Since it was right behind ours and we had to fix door we were there when deputies showed up.
> ...


A very similar matter happened to family in an extremely rural area. A guy was threatening the lives of the home owners. Sheriff told em, "arm yourselves. If you shoot him in the yard, make sure you drag the body inside, then call me"....lmao...I kid you not.

But here is what amazes me the most. I am over here with 6 guns (sorry, 'freedom dispensers') within 10ft of me right now, yet I practice what I preach about prevention. I have cameras, IR detection, a closed gate, a 500ft driveway, warning signs, and in every way, I try to prevent it from ever happening! There is literally a sign at 200ft warning people to get right with Jesus before proceeding.

But I also realize I am not likely to become a statistic, but fear a neighbor may call some day. We are 20min from help. My eyes and senses are my best weapon. In most cases, making eye contact and tracking someone will make them bug out. I had a suspicious car drive by my rural place. All the hallmarks of "concern". Drove by twice super slow. On the third pass, here comes my dually cooking out my 500ft driveway. That car disappeared and I never saw it again. That was a "case gone wrong". People need to use their eyes.

Any for anyone reading this, here is another slant to the original store in this thread. I contacted the detective I know that would handle this theft matter. He knew absolutely nothing about this matter! None! This is why it is paramount that people talk and relay intel! Never assume talking to a cop helps anyone. They will never go tell the neighbors a thing.


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

bobsmith said:


> A very similar matter happened to family in an extremely rural area. A guy was threatening the lives of the home owners. Sheriff told em, "arm yourselves. If you shoot him in the yard, make sure you drag the body inside, then call me"....lmao...I kid you not.


Heard that more than once myself back in the good old days.

Funny you mention people driving by slow. 
Someone drove by my place slow one night spotlighting my house. Lit my house up like daylight, and house is 200 yards off the road. Twice. Second time I was dressed and in the truck. 
Followed them to see who it was. They pulled over to let me by but i stopped and asked who they were and what the hell they thought they were doing. (Risky I know. I was too mad to care.)
Turned out to be a new neighbor who had just moved into house up the road from town, and said they heard gunshots somewhere and nobody needed to be shooting cause they had kids and they were trying to find out who it was so they could call police. 😂 Perfectly legal to shoot in cattle country.

I informed them of the legality of the situation and stupidity of driving by spotlight someones house in the as Some would shoot first and ask questions later.
At least they never did it again. 
Although did find out 3 months after fact bunch of shooting i heard one night in the road couple years later was them shooting at someone else. Wtf? I guess they went overboard. 🤷🏼‍♂️😂🤣
(Sad thing is they’re my closest neighbor and I don’t like nor trust them. Everyone in that bunch is trouble and has me looking into camera system. )
One my other neighbors questioned about it told me. At least other guy survived.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

TexasMom1216 said:


> People from other countries sniff down their noses at our “gun culture,” but what we have is “personal responsibility.”


I work for an international company based in Germany. I have many colleagues and friends there. 

People in those countries don't look down their noses at our gun culture because they lack a sense of personal responsibility - their sense of personal responsibility to others probably exceeds most here. They look down their noses because they are shocked to see schools shot up weekly on the news. 

Don't paint me with an anti-gun brush, either, because that won't stick. But let's not be disingenuous about the mixed bag that is the result of living in a country that has more guns than people. It is absolutely our right, it might be on the whole a benefit, but it certainly comes with a cost they are not paying.


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

Cletus said:


> I work for an international company based in Germany. I have many colleagues and friends there.
> 
> People in those countries don't look down their noses at our gun culture because they lack a sense of personal responsibility - their sense of personal responsibility to others probably exceeds most here. They look down their noses because they are shocked to see schools shot up weekly on the news.
> 
> Don't paint me with an anti-gun brush, either, because that won't stick. But let's not be disingenuous about the mixed bag that is the result of living in a country that has more guns than people. It is absolutely our right, it might be on the whole a benefit, but it certainly comes with a cost they are not paying.


I think this is spot on. And whether we want to admit it or not, a higher amount of guns will result in a higher amount of incidents with guns 

Don't get me wrong, I support the right to own guns. But I also am not in denial about what comes with a heavily armed population either


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> I think this is spot on. And whether we want to admit it or not, a higher amount of guns will result in a higher amount of incidents with guns
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I support the right to own guns. But I also am not in denial about what comes with a heavily armed population either


Sharks. Do you want to be a polite society that respects each other or a society that preys on the weak? There’s a reason they call it the equalizer. ❤


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## m.t.t (Oct 5, 2016)

jonty30 said:


> Now, why would I be hostile to some whose ethicacy is using people until they are used up for their personal benefit?
> I know your politics by your microscopic focus on racial issues. Non-liberals don't care about racial issues, because they don't think about them.
> As you said, it's so ingrained into you that you do not notice it. But the rest of us notice.
> I'm sure you do work. *However, you'd probably have to do more work if you couldn't use your fellow Australians for your personal benefit.*


That is word salad. It's not cohesive at all. 

I don't think you have a grasp on the Australian health system or any idea what Australia is like. I really should know better than to expect any cohesive intelligent conversations from a anti vax Trump supporter.


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## m.t.t (Oct 5, 2016)

bobsmith said:


> I appreciate it! This one frustrated me a bit, but I know I was chill and level as it gets. I just need to do a rethink on my sidearm. I am now trying to find a different full support belt, and possibly give into a smaller frame weapon for Summer carry. I don't like it, but better than having nothing. Our state is open carry as well. No issue printing, etc.
> 
> I think we all get dinged by the 'gun free' folks, assuming we are out looking for a mess. Millions of CCH guys out there in the USA, and I hardly know of any that have ever needed them, but when they do, we are talking like bullets already flying in a Walmart, and a clear case of "things need done".
> 
> ...


]You have a real grandiose sense of your own worth. Anyone that is a decent person doesn't need to tell everyone how good they are, There is a name for this kind of over inflated sense of self. You are a danger to others with this giant ego. 'You were caught off guard! You came across two men shoplifting not a hostage situation where yes it would of maybe been helpful to intervene! People like you go looking for a reason to be a hero! That is a dangerous situation!


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## bobsmith (Oct 15, 2012)

m.t.t said:


> ]You have a real grandiose sense of your own worth. Anyone that is a decent person doesn't need to tell everyone how good they are, There is a name for this kind of over inflated sense of self. You are a danger to others with this giant ego. 'You were caught off guard! You came across two men shoplifting not a hostage situation where yes it would of maybe been helpful to intervene! People like you go looking for a reason to be a hero! That is a dangerous situation!


Thank you. I will return to the closet and hide. Sorry I shared anything. I should know better. I will try to contribute less to society. Just walk single file, pay most of my life in taxes, and die when I am told. Gotcha!


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

m.t.t said:


> ]You have a real grandiose sense of your own worth. Anyone that is a decent person doesn't need to tell everyone how good they are, There is a name for this kind of over inflated sense of self. You are a danger to others with this giant ego. 'You were caught off guard! You came across two men shoplifting not a hostage situation where yes it would of maybe been helpful to intervene! People like you go looking for a reason to be a hero! That is a dangerous situation!


Since I assume your Aussie: by constitutional and common law going to founding of the US each person is supposed to intervene in the event of witnessing a crime. Called a civic duty/responsibility. 
Also why by law the sheriff is the only legal law authority in the US who also happens to be the military commander of the county. 
But doubt many will get or understand it. 
Most don’t care. 🤷🏼‍♂️


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

m.t.t said:


> That is word salad. It's not cohesive at all.
> 
> I don't think you have a grasp on the Australian health system or any idea what Australia is like. I really should know better than to expect any cohesive intelligent conversations from a anti vax Trump supporter.


If I'm paying for the healthcare of liberals that I would never use, I understand it just fine. 
Socialism, in all its forms, is a slave system that requires the servitude of a person, who does not have a choice in the matter, and is backed up with the force of government, who is authorized to kill you for failure to comply to the will of those that want socialism.


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

For all those say it’s job for police or don’t get involve.

Doing a check and patrol on club ease I’m part of made me think of this post and is a microcosm of society. 
There are people been on it since day one always with some complaints (why aren’t you fixing roads, gates, etc). It’s a nonprofit. 
Not a single complainant goes Out to patrol or fix anything. They call elected board Officers to fix it or take care of the trespassing issues, but they don’t get paid for being on the board. Or for doing any work. Their purpose for being there are rules, regulations and mediation with property owners. 

The complainers expect to just pay the yearly payment and everything should take care of itself. They want others to do the work, don’t want to get involved then wonder why everything goes to **** from people tearing up property and trespassing. (If I lease a place for cattle I don’t just throw cattle on and expect not to have to put in work. With the use of the place comes a responsibl).

Compare it to society: people don’t want to have to get involved. They ignore issues, want someone else to do something then complain, or move when things go to **** instead of being proactive and saying “not on my watch.”


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## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

bobsmith said:


> Without pecking a book, I've had an interesting civilian career of thwarting criminal activity since my early teens. At 15yo, I made the news and given an award for spoiling a ring of stolen check writers. I caught them by entrapping them in my garage in a "transaction" as my bro recorded their car tag AND the VIN. The VIN proved to be a key here because they were moving around with stolen plates.
> 
> Some think I am out looking for trouble. I can't help that I can read people. In the above, if I wanted to play teen cop, I could have had them all down on the ground at gun point, but I played their game, collected all the evidence, handed it to the chief, and they got a warrant and did an official tappy tap. Countless stolen goods.


Yeah, and you probably realized on some level that you might get in trouble for that pulling a gun on a bunch of unarmed criminals you invited into your house. So you didn't do it.

It sounds like you've been waiting a long time for a situation to arise that would give you the grounds to shoot someone legally and you're upset mainly because you missed out on it this time. I'm all for executing criminals and gun ownership but if you're really that into being the one to do it then maybe you should go join the Ukrainian army. I'd rather avoid being out in public with someone looking to escalate something when he really doesn't have to.


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## bobsmith (Oct 15, 2012)

gaius said:


> Yeah, and you probably realized on some level that you might get in trouble for that pulling a gun on a bunch of unarmed criminals you invited into your house. So you didn't do it.
> 
> It sounds like you've been waiting a long time for a situation to arise that would give you the grounds to shoot someone legally and you're upset mainly because you missed out on it this time. I'm all for executing criminals and gun ownership but if you're really that into being the one to do it then maybe you should go join the Ukrainian army. I'd rather avoid being out in public with someone looking to escalate something when he really doesn't have to.


By your reasoning all the millions of legal gun carriers and LEOs do so because they are itching to kill someone.... Or am I special? I feel like I have really let you down because I have yet to gun anyone down in the streets yet. 

Tell ya what, if you would stay over on the left coast and hold up your "gun free" sign, I promise none of us gun people will send any bullets your way.


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## bobsmith (Oct 15, 2012)

Here is where "petty theft" leads. These suspects did not start their career at this level. People are soooo worried about why I have a firearm with me at all times and just can't understand why. THIS is why.


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

bobsmith said:


> Here is where "petty theft" leads. These suspects did not start their career at this level. People are soooo worried about why I have a firearm with me at all times and just can't understand why. THIS is why.


You absolutely stink of paranoia and ignorance. You are the vigilante type that is going to one day jump into a situation and get seriously hurt, or killed. Or worse, you will jump into action and shoot the wrong person.

Having a cc permit is usually not a right, but a privilege. Too bad whoever issues the license in your state doesn't get to see just how hyped up you are at looking for the moment you get to pull and use your weapon..... I personally feel like you have no business carrying with your reckless mindset.

Just the fact you were itching to pull a weapon on two people in a situation where you had no idea what was happening is absolutely beyond scary


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

gaius said:


> Yeah, and you probably realized on some level that you might get in trouble for that pulling a gun on a bunch of unarmed criminals you invited into your house. So you didn't do it.
> 
> It sounds like you've been waiting a long time for a situation to arise that would give you the grounds to shoot someone legally and you're upset mainly because you missed out on it this time. I'm all for executing criminals and gun ownership but if you're really that into being the one to do it then maybe you should go join the Ukrainian army. I'd rather avoid being out in public with someone looking to escalate something when he really doesn't have to.


Didn't you know that Batman has no jurisdiction in Ukraine 🤣


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> You absolutely stink of paranoia and ignorance. You are the vigilante type that is going to one day jump into a situation and get seriously hurt, or killed. Or worse, you will jump into action and shoot the wrong person.
> 
> Having a cc permit is usually not a right, but a privilege. Too bad whoever issues the license in your state doesn't get to see just how hyped up you are at looking for the moment you get to pull and use your weapon..... I personally feel like you have no business carrying with your reckless mindset.
> 
> Just the fact you were itching to pull a weapon on two people in a situation where you had no idea what was happening is absolutely beyond scary


Reluctance to use violence, to stop crime, only results in more violent crime over time.


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

jonty30 said:


> Reluctance to use violence, to stop crime, only results in more violent crime over time.


I fully agree with you. But a reckless vigilante attitude will also lead to innocent people being hurt or worse.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> I fully agree with you. But a reckless vigilante attitude will also lead to innocent people being hurt or worse.


It's not necessarily reckless to do something 
Either you do something, or do nothing. 
When you do nothing, you get incidents where women can raped in the open like what happened in Philedelphia about a year ago. An African nationale spent about 6 minutes having forcible sex with a woman, probably white, and nobody stepped up to protect her. 
That's how cowed people are these days.


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

jonty30 said:


> It's not necessarily reckless to do something
> Either you do something, or do nothing.
> When you do nothing, you get incidents where women can raped in the open like what happened in Philedelphia about a year ago. An African nationale spent about 6 minutes having forcible sex with a woman, probably white, and nobody stepped up to protect her.
> That's how cowed people are these days.


Again, I agree with you about stepping up..... But do you think he would be justified to pull a gun on two people where he doesn't even know what the situation is? They haven't shown any violence to anyone, haven't pulled a weapon themselves, and he didn't see any crime committed?


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> Again, I agree with you about stepping up..... But do you think he would be justified to pull a gun on two people where he doesn't even know what the situation is? They haven't shown any violence to anyone, haven't pulled a weapon themselves, and he didn't see any crime committed?


I agree with you that he gets his facts straight first. 
It is possible that, despite what he might be hearing, it might be out of context. 
I also agree with you the best thing to have done is maybe get pictures of plates around the store and see if they take a vehicle when they leave.
Good information is more important than trying to stop it when the encounter is non-violent.


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## bobsmith (Oct 15, 2012)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> Again, I agree with you about stepping up..... But do you think he would be justified to pull a gun on two people where he doesn't even know what the situation is? They haven't shown any violence to anyone, haven't pulled a weapon themselves, and he didn't see any crime committed?


I will attempt to tone down what I really want to tell you, and try to explain this at least at the 3rd grade level. You have obvious went all the way back to my original post where I mentioned "and I didn't have my sidearm", as meaning that I WANT TO PULL A GUN ON THESE DUDES..... You are TOTALLY off your rocker, living in ignorance land, trying to dream up scenarios that I never said, nor intended. 

Let me try to explain this, as I thought I already had, I carry as a civilian these days and I do know my laws. Contrary to your opinion, I DO NOT HAVE A HARD ON TO SHOOT PEOPLE, nor did I have any intent to shoot anyone from my original post, nor pull a gun on them, nor do anything, UNLESS these dudes escalated the matter. I actually said that I reached to my hip BECAUSE THAT IS INSTINCT for me, and regardless, putting your hand on your gun 100% does not sign you up for 100yrs in jail. It is no different than you putting your seat belt on. Do you expect a wreck today? no? Then why the seat belt???? 

People getting all wound like I had intentions here. Yeah, my intentions were to make sure I survived if something went bad, and without my side arm, that means either hand-to-hand, or run like sissy. I realize some people don't have the mentality but I will eat a bullet before a kneel. If you need an example of my mentality, may I present the Ukraine prez. 

As I have said, I know the laws, but I also know I am not headed to the closet when things go down. It sickens me to see people victimized. I certainly hope you can provide me your creds so I can ensure if I see you getting pounded by gang bangers, I don't do anything. I don't want to "start anything"..... I swear, some people are totally out of touch with reality to realize the USA is already in a civil war against both the gov't and criminals. 

As I have mentioned, I encourage any white boy to take stroll through Detroit just after dark and report back......ever..... To say that I am "excited to shoot someone" is beyond stupid. I have never had to do that in the countless yrs I've been armed. But I also know crime is turning up and I refuse to either be a victim, or sit on the curb watching it happen to someone else.


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

bobsmith said:


> I will attempt to tone down what I really want to tell you, and try to explain this at least at the 3rd grade level. You have obvious went all the way back to my original post where I mentioned "and I didn't have my sidearm", as meaning that I WANT TO PULL A GUN ON THESE DUDES..... You are TOTALLY off your rocker, living in ignorance land, trying to dream up scenarios that I never said, nor intended.
> 
> Let me try to explain this, as I thought I already had, I carry as a civilian these days and I do know my laws. Contrary to your opinion, I DO NOT HAVE A HARD ON TO SHOOT PEOPLE, nor did I have any intent to shoot anyone from my original post, nor pull a gun on them, nor do anything, UNLESS these dudes escalated the matter. I actually said that I reached to my hip BECAUSE THAT IS INSTINCT for me, and regardless, putting your hand on your gun 100% does not sign you up for 100yrs in jail. It is no different than you putting your seat belt on. Do you expect a wreck today? no? Then why the seat belt????
> 
> ...


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## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

m.t.t said:


> not really sure of the point you are making.
> 
> No it was two men. Saying they were black is pointless unless its to identify them. It's called racism.


Right, that's why the media chooses to identify police shooting "victims" as black when they completely ignore the 10's of thousands of whites that get shot by the police.

If they can point out the race of "victims" of police, they they can also point out the race being the perpetrators of the crimes.



> We are not allowed to carry firearms here. Period. We have the right to feel safe. We have the right not to feel like some lunatic is going maybe use a gun on us. A gun is a weapon. We are not allowed to carry weapons. Thank god because there are nutters everywhere that don't need that kind of power.


So if you aren't allowed to carry a weapon...why are there lunatics out there you fear may have a gun?


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## bobsmith (Oct 15, 2012)

drencrom said:


> Right, that's why the media chooses to identify police shooting "victims" as black when they completely ignore the 10's of thousands of whites that get shot by the police.
> 
> If they can point out the race of "victims" of police, they they can also point out the race being the perpetrators of the crimes.
> 
> ...


Just check out the latest shooting in Indiana!!! Guy had several mags on tap. A CCH civilian put him down! People will now totally ignore the thought process of how many this guy might have killed if someone did not step in! Police will only be there to do reports once the shooting stops. This has been proven in countless shooting scenarios! It is NOT a guess. It will take countless minutes to "assemble a team", hoping the guy is now out of ammo. 

Responsible CCH holders know these facts and chose to defend rather than become a victim.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

bobsmith said:


> I know there are a few guys here like me, but I realize not many. I went into a liquor store this eve and as I am walking in, I see one of the employees confronting two black dudes trying to steal stuff. I immediately back him up, though I have to admit I was still trying to figure out wtf was even going on. I heard him say "put it back", and I know the employee so....
> 
> Anyway, as some men might do, I am combing my thoughts in how I could have improved this encounter. The two black dudes were in long black coats, I felt confident one of them had a gun because they seemed seasoned at this, and of COURSE I was in gym gear and didn't have mine! WTF!!! I followed the dudes out of the store but did not confront them. We did not know if they had anything left on them or not. Either way, I am still pissed. I wanted to ruffle their feathers in the store, but I realized as soon as I doze one of them, huge dollars in liquor and glass was going to be everywhere. I guess I did not want to engage, but I fear I might be getting weak.
> 
> ...


While I agree emotionally, it’s a bad idea to engage unless a life is being threatened.
Best bet is to standby in the event that things escalate into a deadly threat, but I would not engage prior to that.

Whether you’re armed or not, getting into a gun fight / hands-on altercation is one giant opportunity for everything to go wrong and for you to end up dead (or in prison if you’re win and you live in a blue state/city).
Not worth it to protect some store’s inventory or for the visceral/emotional reward of pushing back on thuggery.


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## bobsmith (Oct 15, 2012)

DudeInProgress said:


> While I agree emotionally, it’s a bad idea to engage unless a life is being threatened.
> Best bet is to standby in the event that things escalate into a deadly threat, but I would not engage prior to that.
> 
> Whether you’re armed or not, getting into a gun fight / hands-on altercation is one giant opportunity for everything to go wrong and for you to end up dead (or in prison if you’re win and you live in a blue state/city).
> Not worth it to protect some store’s inventory or for the visceral/emotional reward of pushing back on thuggery.


While I understand what you are saying, I seriously wish real Americans would wake up and realize this is EXACTLY why criminals are running it today! They know people will do nothing. I just watched a video of a moron filling a bag with pretty much everything at a convenience store. 20 people walked by and looked, no one cared. Reality is that business WILL close because of him, and they will ALL ***** about not having that stow no mow. 

I was either raised different, or something in my military family got lodged in my head....If I see that, that bag is mine. What people fail to realize is that criminal made a decision, NOT me, to make bad choices. I will never ignore it. Just very sad to know I won't have backup but I will have plenty of cell phones recording me to call it a "brutal racial attack". 

BTW, the dude in the convenience store was white! I don't care what color you are, if you want to go that bold, you better be ready to play.


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## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

bobsmith said:


> While I understand what you are saying, I seriously wish real Americans would wake up and realize this is EXACTLY why criminals are running it today! They know people will do nothing.


And they are emboldened by their Democrat "leaders" because they will do nothing but say they need "restorative justice" not "punitive", and liberal state's attorneys will release them back out into the wild.

THIS is why 2A shall not be infringed. With the current state of the nation, we are left to defend ourselves. In Illinois their bill will seek to even make my basic, popular 9mm Beretta pistol illegal. I'm starting to think they simply don't want us to shoot their voters when they break into my home.


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## Diceplayer (Oct 12, 2019)

DudeInProgress said:


> While I agree emotionally, it’s a bad idea to engage unless a life is being threatened.
> Best bet is to standby in the event that things escalate into a deadly threat, but I would not engage prior to that.


I agree. I have a conceal carry permit so there are guns in the house, with two in our bedroom. Wife can shoot. The house is alarmed so we will know if anyone enters. I have told her that if anyone breaks in, stay in the bedroom. The people monitoring the alarm system will call the police. Everything is insured so there is no reason to confront over stuff. Instead, announce loudly that we are armed, but stay in the bedroom. But if that sucker opens the bedroom door, drop his a$$ where he stands.


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## hub49 (7 mo ago)

I can't wait for the far left to have its day of reckoning for all the damage it has caused on society. Given all the potential this situation had to turn deadly for someone, it's amazing that everyone walked away unscathed. I'd encourage the OP to pick his battles more carefully. Seems awfully eager to escalate a situation and although this situation didn't go upside down on him there's no guarantee he'd be as lucky a second time.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Business insurance

Yes it sucks but look at that guy in New York, he defended himself and is charged for murder 🙄

If it's self defence do what you have to do, but robberies, let them have it, it's not worth it.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> This makes me glad to be in country where guns are illegal. Once one person in this sort of situation shoots, it all goes to pot and one or more end up dead. It's just not worth it.


And everyone in the US wears a cowboy hat.


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

jonty30 said:


> Liquor stores are going to have to keep their wares in a backroom and have everything prepaid before the employee can access it.
> 
> A great way to change the culture, to track people, to make it necessary for survival. That might be why the CRT is promoting impossible levels to support shoplifting.


 as most said the shop keeper did not get shot , 
You are right that if the shop wanted to they could change how they show off their stock and 
prepay , this stops the shop from putting it self and other at risk , unless the guy wants to do a hold up , 
the shop can change if it wants. but the shop has another way of dealing with this they mark up the goods and we pay for the ones that help themselves in shops, 
shops do spend a lot on all types of things to reduce it but it is us that end up paying for the guys that don't 

if I want a bottle of drink I am happy to go into a shop and walk up to the guy ask him for said bottle pay and walk out with it in my hand , for other things shops can put up a empty box or a photo of the thing , often small things like usb and phones even shoes, 
a usb is only about 8 euro here a bottle of drink is often more so why not put a fake bottle of drink if they want to show what they have in shop and have a guy go to the warehouse for the real one , better than paying a door man that tries to make everyone that comes in feel as if we are the bad ones ,


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> Of course we shouldn't just let people do what they want.
> Thats why we have a police force.
> I don't believe in people trying too be the police and meteing out their own justice. That's happened in the past and never worked.


So what is one to do waiting for the police to show up? I am sure the person breaking the law will just sit and wait for them.


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