# Never getting the truth



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Anyone understand a cheater denying or refusing to come clean despite incontrovertible evidence?
It is so strange. It' s like riding in a car with someone who has farted yet denies. You:wink2: know they did it. They know they did it. And, they know you know they did it. Still, they stonewall.


----------



## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Maxo said:


> Anyone understand a cheater denying or refusing to come clean despite incontrovertible evidence?
> It is so strange. It' s like riding in a car with someone who has farted yet denies. You:wink2: know they did it. They know they did it. And, they know you know they did it. Still, they stonewall.


That's the best analogy I've ever heard for that.

LOL


----------



## workindad (May 7, 2011)

Could be several reasons- deny it long enough and someone may believe them?

The WS hopes you are really dumb and will believe them over solid proof?


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I love the fart analogy!!! Perfect!

There are a million reasons why a WS will do this. None of which matter. On D day my hubby kept saying over and over that since he never slept with anyone it wasn't really cheating. He paid thousands of dollars trying to get laid - where's the difference?

They all do it. The important thing is - do they stop doing it sooner rather than later? And if not - they should now be a FORMER spouse.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

I bring this up when she mentions anything about still loving me. She is adept at diverting the question.


----------



## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Maxo

I have a number of perspectives on this but for now.....

I think many times the cheaters have ended the affair and feel they have moved on you can't. 

They have the full story, but you don't.

They had the pleasure of an emotional connection with someone while you were emotionally desolate.

They had the physical pleasure, extremely intense, while you went without.

Given all of the above I think part of it is that they do not want to destroy the wonderful memories, which will be destroyed if they have to deal with the correspondingly horrible alternate memories you have. 

Tamat


----------



## VeryHurt (Mar 11, 2011)

I have shared this on TAM a few times. It's my personal favorite. My Idiot STBX looked at me straight in the eye and said to me, " I did NOT send her (aka POSOW) flowers on Valentine's Day and if you don't believe me then our marriage is really in trouble." 
He was so damn convincing, I apologized for questioning him.


----------



## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

The gas lighting drove me crazy. I don't understand it at all. Why not just come clean? What gets me is sometimes when they don't exactly come clean, they come up with reasons why it would be OK if they DID cheat, but then they STILL insist that they didn't. I think I just burst out laughing because he was so ridiculous, and such a terrible liar that he seemed like he had totally convinced himself that what he did was OK.


----------



## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

VeryHurt said:


> I have shared this on TAM a few times. It's my personal favorite. My Idiot STBX looked at me straight in the eye and said to me, " I did NOT send her (aka POSOW) flowers on Valentine's Day and if you don't believe me then our marriage is really in trouble."
> He was so damn convincing, I apologized for questioning him.


Sounds a bit like Bill Clinton and the famous denial!


----------



## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Maxo said:


> Anyone understand a cheater denying or refusing to come clean despite incontrovertible evidence?
> It is so strange. It' s like riding in a car with someone who has farted yet denies. You:wink2: know they did it. They know they did it. And, they know you know they did it. Still, they stonewall.


I've seen pictures, a video and the om told me far too many details. It's safe to say in my small community this is the worst kept secret around yet I guess as long as she never admits, it didn't happen in her head. She couldn't even acknowledge to the court her new address when she was living with the clown. I had to tell the courts her address and she didn't disagree but didn't agree, just sat silent. 

I'd love to know the answer too.


----------



## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

@VeryHurt, here's mine. @Maxo, fart analogy is priceless. 

OW, a writer, wrote a post on her blog about meeting my XWS for the first time.
He had hit on her by commenting on her blog & proceeded to send her schmalzy emails a few times a week, until they finally met 8 months later. 
Ooops, I forgot to say, he told her he was single. 

When I showed it to him he said, 
“She’s a fiction writer. She made it all up.”:rofl:


----------



## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

My XWW denied her affair on D-day even after I told her I had proof (VAR of her having sex with om). When I finally got her to acknowledge it she admitted she was trying to protect the om since they were in love. At least I got a reasonable explanation from her point of view that I could follow. I don't blame her for lying since I expected it from her in that situation.


----------



## VeryHurt (Mar 11, 2011)

********** said:


> @veryhurt, here's mine. @maxo, fart analogy is priceless.
> 
> Ow, a writer, wrote a post on her blog about meeting my xwh for the first time.
> He had hit on her by commenting on her blog & proceeded to send her schmalzy emails a few times a week, until they finally met 8 months later.
> ...


priceless


----------



## Slow Hand (Oct 4, 2015)

Ugh, I'm done letting it eat me up inside, I'm getting a divorce. I did not have a smoking gun, but my gut won't pipe down. That's not the only reason I'm calling it quits though, it was the final straw, it would seem, in a 26 year marriage. My Dad cheated on my Mom right after their 26 year anniversary. He married his AP and they're still together after 24 years. 

It really sucks being lonely in a marriage and having to deal with emotional, physical and mental abuse. Add to that, possible infidelity and lies, equals deal breaker. 

At this point I don't really care if I ever get the truth, I'm done with this chapter of my life, time to move on and find someone who cares about me and doesn't make me feel lonely. Heck, I've read that being single and lonely is way better than being married and lonely. Time to give that a try. Hope you all find what you're lookin' for, sorry you're here as well.


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

There's a thread somewhere else (can't remember where at the moment), in which people recounted some of the most unbelievable whoppers. My favorites were the cheating spouse confronted with the smoking gun texts who explained that they were accidental 'pocket texts,' lol, and the cheating W who told her BH with the vasectomy that the IUD string that he noticed was a 'medical experiment.'


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

TAMAT said:


> Maxo
> 
> I have a number of perspectives on this but for now.....
> 
> ...


Oh,well then, how noble of my wife, protecting my memories. I guess I should be more appreciative. Quite the sacrifice on her part.


----------



## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

In case you haven't noticed cheaters lie, hide and deny. A lot!!!!!

Go with our gut instincts and move on.

This is the thing trust maybe the most important thing in a marriage. Obviously you don't have any.

What's that telling you?????


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Marc878 said:


> In case you haven't noticed cheaters lie, hide and deny. A lot!!!!!
> 
> Go with our gut instincts and move on.
> 
> ...


It tells me I did the right thing by jettisoning her.


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Maxo said:


> It tells me I did the right thing by jettisoning her.


Maxo, are you and your wife already divorced? I know that you have shared bits and pieces of your story on a few different threads, but you haven't actually shared your whole story. You may not be ready to share it yet, but would you care to provide a few more details? How long have you and your wife been apart? Is your divorce final? How many children do you and she have together? I know you said that you have a handicapped child. Who is the primary caregiver for your children? It appears that you've moved on, but you seem to have a lingering need to get some questions answered, or at least to have your wife confirm what you already know. Does your (ex)wife, even now, refuse to give you transparency, all while expressing a desire to reconcile?


----------



## Redactus (Nov 22, 2015)

As best as I can figure, a cheater constantly denying the deed, no matter whatever the proof against them, simply thinks in their simple brain, " I never admitted, so therefore, I never did the deed." Totally pitiful.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

EI said:


> Maxo, are you and your wife already divorced? I know that you have shared bits and pieces of your story on a few different threads, but you haven't actually shared your whole story. You may not be ready to share it yet, but would you care to provide a few more details? How long have you and your wife been apart? Is your divorce final? How many children do you and she have together? I know you said that you have a handicapped child. Who is the primary caregiver for your children? It appears that you've moved on, but you seem to have a lingering need to get some questions answered, or at least to have your wife confirm what you already know. Does your (ex)wife, even now, refuse to give you transparency, all while expressing a desire to reconcile?


Divorced 9 years in Seotember. 5 kids. Oldest is now in a nearby group home. I have a nice GF, also a BS.
My Xw has now given up on the overtures. She will disclose no details re her serial cheating. SAll my kids have lost respect for,rightfully so. The younger ones reside with her. I have the less frequently now that they are teenagers. But, we are close.


----------



## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

It's all about guilt and shame...folks can't admit they are flawed.

Granted there is more to it...as mentioned in earlier post but combine this with other factors, it all comes together as one phucked up shyt storm the cheater will never face.

When it comes to true remorse...a cheater will face this shame and guilt head on and deal with *there own* shyt and face it head on with out blaming other's or excusing their actions.

If your old lady wants to take this to her grave then don't be there for the funeral..cuz she hasn't learned a dam thing and she will phuck the next guy over again.


----------



## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

At the end of the day brother you old lady would rather break up the family unit then fix her own shyt....face it ...you picked the wrong one.

I hope you find a new one that will make a great stepmom to your kids and can coparent with your ex.

Until she owns her own shyt she hasn't learned a thing.


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Maxo said:


> Divorced 9 years in Seotember. 5 kids. Oldest is now in a nearby group home. I have a nice GF, also a BS.
> My Xw has now given up on the overtures. She will disclose no details re her serial cheating. SAll my kids have lost respect for,rightfully so. The younger ones reside with her. I have the less frequently now that they are teenagers. But, we are close.


B1 and I also have 5 children, all grown now. Our 2nd to oldest is our special needs son. He has been living in a staffed residence, by his own choice, for the last two years. When his siblings began to grow up and move out, he wanted to experience that same right of passage. He has one roommate, who also has special needs, and a full-time, live-in caregiver. 

If 9 years have passed and your ex-wife still refuses to be honest, she'll never be able to be honest with you. She's probably not even being honest with herself. It's good that you didn't allow that experience to completely destroy your ability to trust, and that you have found someone else who you can be happy with.

Do continue to remain close and actively involved with your younger children who are still living at home with your ex-wife. They need to know that a serial cheating drunk is not normal and acceptable behavior. 

Children, regardless of their age, are often the greatest victims of all when it comes to infidelity and divorce. And, I say that as a fWS. It's the one thing, to this day, that I cannot wrap my brain around. Betraying my husband was not justifiable, but I do know why I did it. Betraying our children (because infidelity affects the whole family) is something I'll never be able to rationalize. I honestly don't know how I did it. Our children were all hurt by my infidelity, but a lot of healing has taken place since then, and like their father, they love me and have truly forgiven me. But, it was particularly hard on one of our sons, and to this day, I can still see the lingering effects of it on my relationship with him.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

My XW is now sober and really easier to deal with now that I know about personality disorders. One of my sons lives with me. Three daughters with the XW.
My oldest is the disabled one. He is very sweet. We have Special Olympics basketball tomorrow:grin2:


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

EI said:


> B1 and I also have 5 children, all grown now. Our 2nd to oldest is our special needs son. He has been living in a staffed residence, by his own choice, for the last two years. When his siblings began to grow up and move out, he wanted to experience that same right of passage. He has one roommate, who also has special needs, and a full-time, live-in caregiver.
> 
> If 9 years have passed and your ex-wife still refuses to be honest, she'll never be able to be honest with you. She's probably not even being honest with herself. It's good that you didn't allow that experience to completely destroy your ability to trust, and that you have found someone else who you can be happy with.
> 
> ...



EI, what exactly did your children know about the affair, s it was happening and in its aftermath? How did it affect them specifically?


----------



## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

This morning I got a text at 5:30 a.m. from one of my BFFs telling me the poop hit the fan last night and she confronted her H about his OW. He denied, denied, denied. So my friend called the OW right in front of him (and she answered!).


----------



## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

Degrees of Truth...

Aside from maybe a ONS, even when they do admit to cheating (proof in-hand), they never come completely clean. Details, hookups, length of affairs... all minimized in some weird twisted way to paint a better picture to a horrible choice.

Advice... for the BS, whether you R or D, at some point you must let it go, short of Water Boarding, they aren't telling.


----------



## workindad (May 7, 2011)

RWB said:


> Degrees of Truth...
> 
> Aside from maybe a ONS, even when they do admit to cheating (proof in-hand), they never come completely clean. Details, hookups, length of affairs... all minimized in some weird twisted way to paint a better picture to a horrible choice.
> 
> Advice... for the BS, whether you R or D, at some point you must let it go, short of Water Boarding, they aren't telling.


Been pondering this question since last night. I agree with this, but think there is likely a variety of reasons as well.

Don't want to face the ugly truth and the consequences of their actions.

Don't want to ruin their special memories of elation and secret fun.

Perhaps other reasons as well.

The one I do not believe is really a factor is the "protection" of the BS. That may be a nice excuse, but if there was any thought or consideration of the BS, the cheating wouldn't have happened in the first place.


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> EI, what exactly did your children know about the affair, s it was happening and in its aftermath? How did it affect them specifically?


NextTimeAround, I would be happy (for lack of a better word) to share this with you, but with 5 children, all with extremely different personality types, each one affected quite differently, and my inability to make a long story short, I'm afraid it would be a huge thread jack. B1 and I are getting go ready to go run some errands and I can't type it all right now. When we return, I will type it up in a pm for you, unless Maxo would not mind me sharing it on his thread. 

I'll always regret making the decision to betray my husband and children, but I can't turn back time. So, if I can use my experience in any way to help someone else, even if it means answering questions that are uncomfortable for me to answer, I'm willing to do so.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

EI said:


> NextTimeAround, I would be happy (for lack of a better word) to share this with you, but with 5 children, all with extremely different personality types, each one affected quite differently, and my inability to make a long story short, I'm afraid it would be a huge thread jack. B1 and I are getting go ready to go run some errands and I can't type it all right now. When we return, I will type it up in a pm for you, unless Maxo would not mind me sharing it on his thread.
> 
> I'll always regret making the decision to betray my husband and children, but I can't turn back time. So, if I can use my experience in any way to help someone else, even if it means answering questions that are uncomfortable for me to answer, I'm willing to do so.


Feel free.


----------



## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

It is of utmost importance for my sister in law to look perfect at all times. I've never met anyone like her before. Makeup, hair, dress, house, my nieces, car, decisions; all must be perfect at all times. Nothing out of place. God forbid, you use the butcher knife to cut a cake instead of the cake knife, (yes husband and I actually witnessed her sarcastic comments to my brother in law). For her to admit that she had an affair, (being less than perfect), goes against her total being. 

That being said, a few months ago she did finally admit that she did sleep with OM1 just one time.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

soccermom2three said:


> It is of utmost importance for my sister in law to look perfect at all times. I've never met anyone like her before. Makeup, hair, dress, house, my nieces, car, decisions; all must be perfect at all times. Nothing out of place. God forbid, you use the butcher knife to cut a cake instead of the cake knife, (yes husband and I actually witnessed her sarcastic comments to my brother in law). For her to admit that she had an affair, (being less than perfect), goes against her total being.
> 
> That being said, a few months ago she did finally admit that she did sleep with OM1 just one time.


Classic NPD. Gotta keep the image up, even if it means terrorizing the spouse and kids.


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

TAMAT said:


> Maxo
> 
> I have a number of perspectives on this but for now.....
> 
> ...


I like your analogy.

You effectively put a hard-coated shine on a year old turd. Not too many cro-magnums can do this!


----------



## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

My WW said "it was a joke' about them talking about F-ing.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Slow Hand said:


> Ugh, I'm done letting it eat me up inside, I'm getting a divorce. I did not have a smoking gun, but my gut won't pipe down. That's not the only reason I'm calling it quits though, it was the final straw, it would seem, in a 26 year marriage. My Dad cheated on my Mom right after their 26 year anniversary. He married his AP and they're still together after 24 years.
> 
> It really sucks being lonely in a marriage and having to deal with emotional, physical and mental abuse. Add to that, possible infidelity and lies, equals deal breaker.
> 
> At this point I don't really care if I ever get the truth, I'm done with this chapter of my life, time to move on and find someone who cares about me and doesn't make me feel lonely. Heck, I've read that being single and lonely is way better than being married and lonely. Time to give that a try. Hope you all find what you're lookin' for, sorry you're here as well.


Which is why we've gone to a No Fault Divorce system. In the old days you'd have had to catch your spouse having sex with the other person.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

sidney2718 said:


> Which is why we've gone to a No Fault Divorce system. In the old days you'd have had to catch your spouse having sex with the other person.


Right, and now your spouse can bang the neighbor and hit you up for maintenance,and get full custody.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

In my situation, fortunately, we were just dating at the time, but I knew something was up when I went away for 3 weeks and my (future) husband could not find the time to see me the day I got back (it was a Sunday)

By 5pm that day he had texted me and messaged me through FB, so I called him but refused to do anything with him.

I later told him that he obviously had plans with another woman that day and didn't want to schedule anything to have his flexibility. He denied it.

But then in his apartment, I found the tickets to 2 museum exhibitions for two people each that day I came back.

When we had our talk, I was very specific. Of course, even when someone is right, when they are vague, it's easy to play it off.

But when someone can say, not only what you did, but exactly which museums, which exhibition, exactly how much it cost....... do you really think you should play it off as just lucky guesses? I wouldn't, but that's what he did until I told him, look at the ticket stubs you have lying around your apartment.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Maxo said:


> Feel free.


Thanks for that, Maxo.

I am trying to figure out how someone who has 5 kids still at home full time can find time to have an affair.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

soccermom2three said:


> It is of utmost importance for my sister in law to look perfect at all times. I've never met anyone like her before. Makeup, hair, dress, house, my nieces, car, decisions; all must be perfect at all times. Nothing out of place. God forbid, you use the butcher knife to cut a cake instead of the cake knife, (yes husband and I actually witnessed her sarcastic comments to my brother in law). For her to admit that she had an affair, (being less than perfect), goes against her total being.
> 
> That being said, a few months ago she did finally admit that she did sleep with OM1 just one time.


She is a perfect example of a whited sepulchre. Perfect on the outside but coruption within.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lostmyreligion (Oct 18, 2013)

Maxo said:


> Anyone understand a cheater denying or refusing to come clean despite incontrovertible evidence?
> It is so strange. It' s like riding in a car with someone who has farted yet denies. You:wink2: know they did it. They know they did it. And, they know you know they did it. Still, they stonewall.


I had just picked up a product manager at the airport and we were hitting the road for a week long series of sales calls. Just outside of town, the smell of nasty rotten eggs invaded and utterly permeated the vehicle. I instantly recognized it for what it was - emissions from the local pulp mill. 

For those who've never been around the industry, it seriously smells like a paint pealing fart - and this was what he immediately accused me of having dropped. It was just he and I in the truck and since he was still sucking in the evidence it was 'obvious' to him who the culprit was. 

The mill was 6 miles and a hill or two out of sight. There was no convincing him otherwise.

That said, there's not too many pulp mills around let alone ones that get away with emissions like that. I couldn't fault him too much for his skepticism.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Maxo said:


> Right, and now your spouse can bang the neighbor and hit you up for maintenance,and get full custody.


True, and I agree that (some) of the laws need to be fixed. But the system was designed to ensure that children were protected and that spouses, especially those with no skills, were also protected.

Can the system be gamed? You betcha. But it is better than the old system which had totally dysfunctional families unable to divorce and people who simply separated---where walkaway husbands left wife and child to starve.


----------



## kenmoore14217 (Apr 8, 2010)

Lostmyreligion - Johnsonburg, PA ???? phew!!!


----------



## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

Maxo
Your closeness to your children is HUGE!
All close Relationships are very important but children and parents are by far the most important, IMO.
Children can fill most of the gap, if not all, in a broken relationship such as you and your Xwife.

EI is a very brave woman that will not make excuses for anything. She also will face the truth even about her hurting her children... That is great strength! My guess is that EI and her children are close and will get closer as the years go on.

My wife hurt our children when she walked out on all of us. In our case, that is different than Maxo but somewhat like EI and B1, and the mother-child damage is all but healed. I would say at least 90% healed but it took many years of her doing the right things. *There is a lot of hope for healing child/parent relationships when done right IMO.*

The closest that I get to unconditional love is my love for my children! It is very rewarding!


----------



## truster (Jul 23, 2015)

soccermom2three said:


> It is of utmost importance for my sister in law to look perfect at all times. I've never met anyone like her before. Makeup, hair, dress, house, my nieces, car, decisions; all must be perfect at all times. Nothing out of place. God forbid, you use the butcher knife to cut a cake instead of the cake knife, (yes husband and I actually witnessed her sarcastic comments to my brother in law). For her to admit that she had an affair, (being less than perfect), goes against her total being.


I had to double check my memory to make sure my wife didn't have a brother, because that was an eerily accurate description of her.


----------



## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

soccermom2three said:


> It is of utmost importance for my sister in law to look perfect at all times...
> 
> For her to admit that she had an affair, (being less than perfect), goes against her total being...
> 
> That being said, a few months ago she did finally *admit that she did sleep with OM1 just one time*.


When caught... "I swear it was _just One Time_."

I heard it, you heard it... It's the first line in of defense in the Cheaters Handbook, CH. What to say when you get caught.


----------



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

RWB said:


> When caught... "I swear it was _just One Time_."
> 
> I heard it, you heard it... It's the first line in of defense in the Cheaters Handbook, CH. What to say when you get caught.


If it happened once, it happened multiple times--given the intensity of denial.


----------



## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"But, it was particularly hard on one of our sons, and to this day, I can still see the lingering effects of it on my relationship with him."

EI,

I'm sad to hear this.

I know it must be heartbreaking for you.

My dad never forgave his mom for running off with a POSOM when he and his brothers were little boys....not even on her death bed.

I know from other family members that it absolutely crushed her the last few months of her life before she passed from cancer.

I am glad that you are able to still have a relationship with him, even if it is strained at times.

And I hope it will eventually fade from both your memories.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Mr Blunt said:


> Maxo
> Your closeness to your children is HUGE!
> All close Relationships are very important but children and parents are by far the most important, IMO.
> Children can fill most of the gap, if not all, in a broken relationship such as you and your Xwife.
> ...


I read a book on the effects on kids of a parent cheating. It is devestating in many instances.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Maxo said:


> Right, and now your spouse can bang the neighbor and hit you up for maintenance,and get full custody.


That's right. But could you prove that she's banging the neighbor beyond a reasonable doubt? Trials are very costly. People would testify for your and against you. The result is a crap shoot.

The laws are made by state legislators. They figure that they'd rather not have starving kids on the street or starving parents either. That would cost the taxpayers money.

So what is done is that a fair distribution of assets is attempted.

And of course it does not work in most cases. Doing a detailed examination of your work situation, your spouses work situation, the future work possibilities, housing needs, need for children's clothing and food, and so on would require an army of investigators with both spouses arguing with the findings. The total cost would be enormous and the result would be no better than what we have today.

Yes, things can and should be patched here and there. I'm all for it. But the present solution isn't really a bad one.


----------



## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> That's right. But could you prove that she's banging the neighbor beyond a reasonable doubt? Trials are very costly. People would testify for your and against you. The result is a crap shoot.
> 
> The laws are made by state legislators. They figure that they'd rather not have starving kids on the street or starving parents either. That would cost the taxpayers money.
> 
> ...


The current system is a joke in its implementation and if a person has the means and resources to pursue an at fault divorce they should be entitled to do so. The states could careless about the children's wellbeing, they are bargaining chips and thats it divorce.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

sidney2718 said:


> That's right. But could you prove that she's banging the neighbor beyond a reasonable doubt? Trials are very costly. People would testify for your and against you. The result is a crap shoot.
> 
> The laws are made by state legislators. They figure that they'd rather not have starving kids on the street or starving parents either. That would cost the taxpayers money.
> 
> ...


Reasonable doubt is thestandard in criminal trials only. Preponderance of the evidence is the standard for proof in most civil matters. Rarely is it " clear and convincing" , a sort of intermediate standard between those two standards.
But,yes,in my case I could easily meet even the higher standard.


----------



## brokenguy (Sep 7, 2015)

On topic : Yes, I would appreciate if any psychologist can explain this behavior. 
I caught my ex-wife texts which specifically said to her OM "no, I don't want to make love to you again because if I make love to you, I have to make love to my husband (in case of pregnancy I think). And I don't want to make love to my husband"
you know what her answer when I confront her? "That text was a test of trust for you to see whether you are still checking on my texts" 
I literally learned how to be a spy and memorize her hand phone pass key using mirrors, eye movement etc. and she erased texts on hourly basis. Would anyone be stupid enough to believe that text wasn't the truth? She even refused to apologize lol....
I have numerous evidence about her misbehaviour (from hotel receipt to numerous texts about sexual activity between my ex and OM) and she divorce me because I don't trust her... (true story : she filed the divorce court case under overprotective and untrusting spouse)
I even open one final gate in our marriage (because of our daughter) by reminding her of her vow in front of the reverend in Church and how she didn't want a divorce because all in her family is divorced.... her answer "then is then, now is now. different situation"

I really don't understand this situation? Shouldn't there be a guilty conscience knocking on your inner self?


----------



## oneMOreguy (Aug 22, 2012)

Simple reasons in many cases.......shame and fear.........much of the rest is just offshoots from this.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

brokenguy said:


> On topic : Yes, I would appreciate if any psychologist can explain this behavior.
> I caught my ex-wife texts which specifically said to her OM "no, I don't want to make love to you again because if I make love to you, I have to make love to my husband (in case of pregnancy I think). And I don't want to make love to my husband"
> you know what her answer when I confront her? "That text was a test of trust for you to see whether you are still checking on my texts"
> I literally learned how to be a spy and memorize her hand phone pass key using mirrors, eye movement etc. and she erased texts on hourly basis. Would anyone be stupid enough to believe that text wasn't the truth? She even refused to apologize lol....
> ...


I think acquainting yourself with the Cluster B personality disorders might shed some light. You will never be able to fully understand them. But, it might help you to see that what you describe is not uncommon with them.


----------



## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

I finally received the truth about post-separation relationships 11 years after. I asked "why did you wait so long". Her answer was "I knew I couldn't tell you right after I ended it, because you couldn't of handled it then. So I wanted to wait a few years. But then we were doing so well that I didn't want to rock the boat. We had moved away with no intention of ever being around these OM ever again, and I kinda forgot about it. But fate intervened and we ended up back in the same town, and I felt it necessary to tell you in case we ran into them, or before I used it in a chapter of my book dealing with infidelity."

She was the one who had to suffer with the guilt of what she choose to keep secret. I was blissfully ignorant while she took time to work on herself to make us better.

I think some basic level of honesty is necessary (I cheated, I'm sorry, it's over) much sooner for proper R efforts. I am glad I know now, and we are better for it. Definitely better than finding out on your deathbed.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

She suffered? I am skeptical.


----------



## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> By Maxo
> I read a book on the effects on kids of a parent cheating. It is devestating in many instances


. 

That is the bad news. The good news is that you as a parent can HEAL A LOT with your children!


----------



## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

brokenguy said:


> I really don't understand this situation? *Shouldn't there be a guilty conscience knocking on your inner self?*


Coping Skills?

This response is common among LT cheaters, especially SC. I asked my wife when finally caught, DD...

_"How did you carry on inside for all those years knowing you were a fake, a liar, a fraud, to your family, your friends, your church. Didn't it eat away inside you?"_

Her response... typical for LTSC, she completely separated her worlds of Spouse and Mother from AP with large dosages of Justification and Compartmentalizing.

For her, these "Skills" no longer worked post DD. However, I firmly convinced that for many cheaters post DD, justification and compartmentalizing can block away all sense of guilt and shame. 

We have a term for this... Psychopath.


----------



## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

Sometimes you just have to laugh at them, bd ridicule the answer. It's the only reasonable response and it does hit home. I remember one guy saying "If she walks in the room I don't care if I am with her mother and two sisters, you look her in the eye and shout HELP THEY ARE RAPING ME!!". Why because she will believe what she wants to believe. Yep, makes sense regardless of gender.


----------



## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

@EI hi good to hear from you. My dad cane from a broken home although I did not know it until I was a teen. You know how everyone knows they have great grandparents but no one ever talks about them? As a child myself and siblings just assumed he died in an accident or something way before we where born. Like my great uncle Billy. I only know of his existence because someone mentioned Fort Lee NJ was the first hollywood and many of the silent films where shot there and by the way your great uncle Billy was a poker buddy of one of the Marx brothers? So I airways thought grandpa was like uncle billy and never asked about him. So anyway I come and mom mentions my dads father had pass. Huh? 

The man was a serial cheat and an asshat. My father never had a good relationship with him and actual spoke with once after his sophomore year in HS. That meeting only happened once because my mother insisted he meet me (age 3) and my brother (age 2) Only know because I found one pix of us together. Don't know what he did to make my Mom walk and believe it must ave been big. 

In any event looking back at my folks marriage (which was an amazing one) I realized on my fathers part he learned to be a great husband to some degree from his dad. He learned what not to do, and because of the pain from his childhood he swore never to be that man. He did a contented man after a good life and I loved that man. I was a classic good kid but out of control ADHD kid who set the record at the local hospital ER for the must visits in a single day. (Something to do with with basketball in the morning, a stair case at lunch and a tree in the afternoon. But I was blessed as no brain no pain). My point is he was the one person on earth who could stop me in my tracks. Which is why I have never ridden a motorcycle, a misadventure at a bridge, and resulting promises being made. (hey it was only maybe 60 - 80 feet to the water. 

Anyway to get back to the subject at hand, it us really, really hard to come with a good lie on the spot when you are wet, and standing on a bridge railing when your dad happens to drive bye, stops the car in traffic, gets out and says "Son, what are you doing? I guess if I hadn't been wet I would have gone with "little old lady fell and I am jumping in to save her" story. I mean the railing was maybe five foot high but I might have been able to sell it as I was a boy scout and had my lifesaving badge. I also learned sometimes just saying "you got me" gets you out of trouble. Sometimes people are so grateful for the truth they forget what happened. 

And beside he didn't catch me with my first beer so things balance out.


----------



## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

I realize I meant have slighted my mother here. A warm loving unassuming person who nome of her children realized how many lives she touched. Because of her I was actually very good at keeping curfews as a teen. Keeping in mind my description of her never the less I grew up answering to Perry Mason (a famous TV lawyer who always won by breaking down witness on cross examination) for my misadventures. Jesus that woman could break Satan with a simple time line, a few facts and simple logic. 

So I just didn't even try at that point in my life a lot of other things kid did. Don't get down on yourself to much E1. Keep owing what's your's to own and show up.


----------



## nursejackie (May 22, 2015)

Shame and fear, shame OR fear for someone who regrets what they have done or the potential consequences
.
For someone who doesn't care except for the fact they got caught - I think they are egotistical to the point that they really believe they can say anything and make the spouse believe them. They think the spouse loves them so much that they will want to believe the lie and sometimes thats true.

My Dad insisted he had lost his wedding ring while on vacation in OW's country. OW called my mom and told her he had given her it to show her(OW) how much he loved her. My mom believed him when he said he wouldn't contact her again even though he kept vacationing in her country every couple of years on his own for 3 weeks at a time. 

The effects of cheating on children- Both my parents cheated multiple times. I think deep down maybe it helped me justify my decision to have an A. It normalized it a bit? Other than that I don't think it effected me at all till I became suspicious of H having an A. Then I couldn't unring that bell.


----------



## WhyMe66 (Mar 25, 2016)

Maxo said:


> Anyone understand a cheater denying or refusing to come clean despite incontrovertible evidence?
> It is so strange. It' s like riding in a car with someone who has farted yet denies. You:wink2: know they did it. They know they did it. And, they know you know they did it. Still, they stonewall.


It is just human nature. Plausible deniability is what we all go for; by using that little bit of reasonable doubt we can convince ourselves that we didn't do whatever we are accused of or what we are accused of really wasn't that bad. It is a process of softening the blow until there is no blow left. My mother would accuse my brother and me of having three additional siblings-Notme, Ididnt and their sister Ida Know. Also, by denying somehow the burden of proof must rest on the accuser as if this were a court of law.

And for the record, I always blame our dogs for the farts. Didn't help much, my STBXWW has the nose of a Labrador and could tell not only mine from the dogs, each dog from the others!!! Kind of scary when you think about it...


----------

