# Parental Alienation - What can be done?



## TXTrini

So I never thought I'd be asking advice on here, being childless. However, my bf just got stomped in the gut recently and I don't know how to help him.

His 16 y/o son recently told him he doesn't want to see him again after they had a frank discussion on why his parents divorced. He was 5 at the time and didn't know what was happening, and my bf tried to protect him until he was old enough to ask for details. 

His ex-W cheated with a married man 10 yrs her junior, they married each other less than 2 months after the final divorce. Somehow her AP got full custody of his kids and they moved them all in together, ex-WW hasn't worked since. That was about 11 yrs ago. 

His son texted him some very strange things, and he hasn't been able to speak to him on the phone or see him at school events. My bf suspects his son's phone was taken away, and he's being isolated. Ex-WW has his son afraid to go to school (kids have been back to school for months here), he isn't driving yet (delays at the DMV; scheduled appointments only) so he can't just leave. Another factor is, his son made the choice to stay there for financial reasons after my bf begged him to come to live with him. 

I gave him a list of articles I found on parental alienation, and a list of father's rights lawyers to call for a consult and he's doing that now. Has anyone had any experience with this, and fought this successfully? Some advice would be very much appreciated, he's rather overwhelmed at the moment and doesn't know what the heck to do.


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## DownByTheRiver

There must have been a good reason for him to lose custody at the time. If there wasn't then he just didn't try very hard to keep it. So just bear that in mind. Usually the only thing that will keep someone from sharing custody is addiction problems or a criminal record and even then they're giving a pathway back. It's entirely possible he just relinquished the child to them. Did her a fair partner adopt the son formally? If so he probably had to get the permission of your boyfriend to do that and the main motivation for that is to not have to pay child support. 

So there could be other reasons why the team doesn't want to see him. Of course it could also just be because the kid is 16 and you know how they can be. 

If he wants to get legal permission to be with him then he will need to get an attorney and go to court.


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## ConanHub

He should not skimp on a lawyer and get one with experience in family law.

He needs to start documenting everything and recording if legal in his state to present his case.

He can't play nice because his ex sure isn't.


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## TXTrini

DownByTheRiver said:


> There must have been a good reason for him to lose custody at the time. If there wasn't then he just didn't try very hard to keep it. So just bear that in mind. Usually the only thing that will keep someone from sharing custody is addiction problems or a criminal record and even then they're giving a pathway back. It's entirely possible he just relinquished the child to them. Did her a fair partner adopt the son formally? If so he probably had to get the permission of your boyfriend to do that and the main motivation for that is to not have to pay child support.
> 
> So there could be other reasons why the team doesn't want to see him. Of course it could also just be because the kid is 16 and you know how they can be.
> 
> If he wants to get legal permission to be with him then he will need to get an attorney and go to court.


He never lost custody, I was speculating about the AP's BW losing custody of her children. He only gets him every other weekend, and for dinner's once during the week. 

My bf barely drinks, doesn't do drugs. He is underemployed at the moment (was laid off from a much better paying job when oil & gas took a hit after Covid) and is still hunting for something suitable to his qualifications. Unfortunately, his profession is in low demand atm unless he moves to a city and he wants to remain close to his kid.


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## heartsbeating

If his son is saying he doesn't want to see him again - why is that? What's the son's perspective following the frank discussion?

Without knowing, I'm more inclined to respect what his son is telling him. Yes, he's 16 ...but also, he's 16. Meaning, some move out of home and start navigating the world at that age. So, it might hurt your bf immensely, but depending on the reason why, I would suggest respecting his wishes. He could email / write him just to let him know he's always loved and he's there for him if he needs.

My childless view, is to evaluate and respect what his son is telling him. While also leaving a door (and window) open for when he's ready.


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## TXTrini

ConanHub said:


> He should not skimp on a lawyer and get one with experience in family law.
> 
> He needs to start documenting everything and recording if legal in his state to present his case.
> 
> He can't play nice because his ex sure isn't.


Thanks. I thought I'd ask b/c I'm sure there are men who've faced this before and might have some advice. He was completely devastated when his son skipped last weekend and my heart is bleeding for him. 

He doesn't have a huge support system, his mom wants him to go nuclear (like showing up at their house) but I think that would get him arrested and turn his son against him. His brother (retired law enforcement) advised him to do nothing. His family doesn't have experience with divorce or nasty exes, their families are all in-tact.


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## heartsbeating

What can you do? ....listen.


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## happyhusband0005

So the son didn't give a reason as to why he doesn't want to see him again? Worst case is the ex is telling him lies to make it seem like your bf was the bad guy and her cheating was understandable. Boys are often very protective of their moms so it could also be the son is mad and confused at hearing the truth about his mother and blames your bf as the bearer of bad news. 

In any event the thing to do is give the kid some space, by all means talk to an attorney to know his rights and what process he would need to go through to force visitation. However, pushing hard might push the son away further, teenage boys brains are not even close to being logical.


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## ConanHub

TXTrini said:


> Thanks. I thought I'd ask b/c I'm sure there are men who've faced this before and might have some advice. He was completely devastated when his son skipped last weekend and my heart is bleeding for him.
> 
> He doesn't have a huge support system, his mom wants him to go nuclear (like showing up at their house) but I think that would get him arrested and turn his son against him. His brother (retired law enforcement) advised him to do nothing. His family doesn't have experience with divorce or nasty exes, their families are all in-tact.


He needs to develop a strong legal case if there is one to develop.

Walking and talking softly while carrying a big stick is the best approach.

I'm uncertain of exactly what is going on but he might be able to get her on truancy if she isn't getting him to school.

Keeping his head and exploring legally is the way to proceed.

He needs to keep it close to the vest and not let on to anyone what he is doing.

My friend is going through a divorce and did this and he got primary custody, which was much better for the kids in his case.


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## heartsbeating

I was thinking further on this, and granted, I'm speculating but figured I'd share my thoughts, nonetheless.

It could be that your bf has now removed the image of his son's family unit. His son may be experiencing what it means to now see his parents as flawed adults. And removing a sense of delusion he once held, in terms of how he viewed his mother and what occurred in the marriage, could have caused him to feel hurt. It will be part of his growing up. And it might also mean he's revisiting what their divorce meant to him as that 5 year old. In turn, he's now shooting the messenger (his dad). I hope that your bf can be resilient through the hurt he is now feeling, and in recognition that his son is likely equally hurting. Personally, I have the sneaking suspicion that his son will come around. Just give him time.


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## DownByTheRiver

TXTrini said:


> He never lost custody, I was speculating about the AP's BW losing custody of her children. He only gets him every other weekend, and for dinner's once during the week.
> 
> My bf barely drinks, doesn't do drugs. He is underemployed at the moment (was laid off from a much better paying job when oil & gas took a hit after Covid) and is still hunting for something suitable to his qualifications. Unfortunately, his profession is in low demand atm unless he moves to a city and he wants to remain close to his kid.


If he's in the US he can't move more than so many miles away from his kid anyway legally although that will all be over in 2 years.


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## TXTrini

Thanks for chiming in guys, this is way above my paygrade for sure. I have been listening, when he wants to talk. He told me he doesn't want a shoulder to cry on, he has enough of that if he wants (his Mom), he wants to do something.

When he came over last weekend, I gave him space to talk/not talk and some TLC with no pressure. However, that was before his son told him he didn't want to see him anymore. He was devasted then, he's beside himself now. 



heartsbeating said:


> If his son is saying he doesn't want to see him again - why is that? What's the son's perspective following the frank discussion?
> 
> Without knowing, I'm more inclined to respect what his son is telling him. Yes, he's 16 ...but also, he's 16. Meaning, some move out of home and start navigating the world at that age. So, it might hurt your bf immensely, but depending on the reason why, I would suggest respecting his wishes. He could email / write him just to let him know he's always loved and he's there for him if he needs.
> 
> My childless view, is to evaluate and respect what his son is telling him. While also leaving a door (and window) open for when he's ready.


He's respecting it, but he isn't at all happy atm. He told his son he loves him and is there for him no matter what. 


heartsbeating said:


> I was thinking further on this, and granted, I'm speculating but figured I'd share my thoughts, nonetheless.
> 
> It could be that your bf has now removed the image of his son's family unit. His son may be experiencing what it means to now see his parents as flawed adults. And removing a sense of delusion he once held, in terms of how he viewed his mother and what occurred in the marriage, could have caused him to feel hurt. It will be part of his growing up. And it might also mean he's revisiting what their divorce meant to him as that 5 year old. In turn, he's now shooting the messenger (his dad). I hope that your bf can be resilient through the hurt he is now feeling, and in recognition that his son is likely equally hurting. Personally, I have the sneaking suspicion that his son will come around. Just give him time.


I think this is precisely what happened. My bf has tried his best not to talk badly about his ex as much as he could, he wanted to protect his kids for as long as possible. I'm guessing his son was very angry to have his "bubble burst", but wtf remarries 2 months after a divorce unless they already had someone lined up?

I told him pretty much the same thing. Of course, it's easy for me to say that, on the "outside" without feeling the pain he does amidst everything happening. I really hope his son comes around, but damn, you didn't see his face 😔 .



DownByTheRiver said:


> If he's in the US he can't move more than so many miles away from his kid anyway legally although that will all be over in 2 years.


We're in Texas. He's made career sacrifices to stay close to his children.


happyhusband0005 said:


> So the son didn't give a reason as to why he doesn't want to see him again? Worst case is the ex is telling him lies to make it seem like your bf was the bad guy and her cheating was understandable. Boys are often very protective of their moms so it could also be the son is mad and confused at hearing the truth about his mother and blames your bf as the bearer of bad news.
> 
> In any event the thing to do is give the kid some space, by all means talk to an attorney to know his rights and what process he would need to go through to force visitation. However, pushing hard might push the son away further, teenage boys brains are not even close to being logical.


No, he texted him about something they never talked about, which is why we suspect his phone was confiscated. He's giving him space and was calling around to make appointments with attorneys today. He's devastated, b/c this happened before with his daughter. Something strange is going on that no-one will talk to him about. You'd think a teenager would tear off to go to college out of home, she's stuff in that house and going nowhere. 



ConanHub said:


> He needs to develop a strong legal case if there is one to develop.
> 
> Walking and talking softly while carrying a big stick is the best approach.
> 
> I'm uncertain of exactly what is going on but he might be able to get her on truancy if she isn't getting him to school.
> 
> Keeping his head and exploring legally is the way to proceed.
> 
> He needs to keep it close to the vest and not let on to anyone what he is doing.
> 
> My friend is going through a divorce and did this and he got primary custody, which was much better for the kids in his case.


I'm sorry your friend had to deal with this, this is ripping his heart out. How the heck can he find anything out though? He doesn't live there, and his son never talked about what happened in that house before. He did want to live with my bf when he was 12, but his mom guilt-tripped him into staying, saying "she didn't know what she'd do to herself if he left her". Mind you, this woman was institutionalized when she was younger for self-harming. Of course, that little gem was discovered after marriage.


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## DownByTheRiver

The boy is probably confused and angry. The boy is probably heard two conflicting stories. The boy probably wishes the parents would leave him out of their problems. 

and the boy is 16 and just at that age when he probably doesn't want to deal with adults anyway especially his parents.


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## TXTrini

DownByTheRiver said:


> The boy is probably confused and angry. The boy is probably heard two conflicting stories. The boy probably wishes the parents would leave him out of their problems.
> 
> and the boy is 16 and just at that age when he probably doesn't want to deal with adults anyway especially his parents.


I totally get that. I experienced a lot of what he went through and then some growing up. I ended up getting married and moving a few continents away at 20. Hopefully, he isn't as stupid


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## DownByTheRiver

I think it was a long about that age our resolved to do anything to avoid that life.


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## heartsbeating

TXTrini said:


> He's devastated, b/c this happened before with his daughter. Something strange is going on that no-one will talk to him about. You'd think a teenager would tear off to go to college out of home, she's stuff in that house and going nowhere.


How old is his daughter and what happened there - is he still estranged from her or find out why she was that way?

That's messed up that his ex-W provided a guilt-trip when he was 12. What's her mental health like currently? It could be tricky for his son to navigate if this is a typical dynamic between them.

Admittedly, reading this I flashed-back to when I was moving out of home (age 18, though). In terms of mental health, Mama Hearts now refers to those years as 'hell-hole' times. Back then, she told me if I moved out that she would never speak to me again. I didn't ask why; just interpreted it as a guilt-trip and unhealthy, particularly when it was an intended positive thing for me. Certainly I had a heavy heart during that time, but took the risk of her 'threat' and moved out regardless. About 3 months later, she came around.

I just hope he can drop his son a note every so often, to reinforce that he's got his back.


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## TXTrini

heartsbeating said:


> How old is his daughter and what happened there - is he still estranged from her or find out why she was that way?
> 
> That's messed up that his ex-W provided a guilt-trip when he was 12. What's her mental health like currently? It could be tricky for his son to navigate if this is a typical dynamic between them.
> 
> Admittedly, reading this I flashed-back to when I was moving out of home (age 18, though). In terms of mental health, Mama Hearts now refers to those years as 'hell-hole' times. Back then, she told me if I moved out that she would never speak to me again. I didn't ask why; just interpreted it as a guilt-trip and unhealthy, particularly when it was an intended positive thing for me. Certainly I had a heavy heart during that time, but took the risk of her 'threat' and moved out regardless. About 3 months later, she came around.
> 
> I just hope he can drop his son a note every so often, to reinforce that he's got his back.


His daughter is 19, she was 8 when they divorced. He said she clung to the OM's leg when things went down on DD. That made me suspect something horrid, but he said it wasn't abuse. She's not only hostile to him but also his family. All she ever said was "You know what you did". She refused to talk to him at length, or her brother. 

I know exactly what you mean. Guilt trips are common in my culture and even at 41 my family still tries to control me. I put a few thousand miles in between us, and am very careful in sharing personal information, even when I know they have my best interests at heart. 

This is something I mentioned to my bf, b/c I could see where he was putting a lot of pressure on him to be "perfect". I was about that age when I started rebelling in a big way and did a lot of stupid ****. He has high expectations for himself and people close to him, and I think his son is feeling it.


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## frusdil

TXTrini said:


> his mom wants him to go nuclear (like showing up at their house) but I think that would get him arrested and turn his son against him.


That would be the worst thing he could possibly do, I wouldn't advise that at all.

Not sure legal advice will do much either, given he's 16. No court will overrule a 16yo wishes. It'd be different if he were 10 or 11, but not 16.

I think the best thing your partner can do, is keep reaching out - tell him about things that are happening on his side, tell him he was thinking about him that day and just thought he'd send a message to check in. Another great idea is to set up an email address for his son, and send him emails regularly. He can give him the password one day when he comes around - and he will, I know it doesn't feel like that now, but he will. He's 16 and trying to process some big reactions.

Can I ask - why did your bf have that talk with him and tell him what he did? Was it to correct something the mother had said?


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## TXTrini

frusdil said:


> That would be the worst thing he could possibly do, I wouldn't advise that at all.
> 
> Not sure legal advice will do much either, given he's 16. No court will overrule a 16yo wishes. It'd be different if he were 10 or 11, but not 16.
> 
> I think the best thing your partner can do, is keep reaching out - tell him about things that are happening on his side, tell him he was thinking about him that day and just thought he'd send a message to check in. Another great idea is to set up an email address for his son, and send him emails regularly. He can give him the password one day when he comes around - and he will, I know it doesn't feel like that now, but he will. He's 16 and trying to process some big reactions.
> 
> Can I ask - why did your bf have that talk with him and tell him what he did? Was it to correct something the mother had said?


I totally agree.

That e-mail suggestion sounds wonderful, thank you! I think he might like being able to write him and then share the details later. He's a sensitive man (the kind some women love to make fun of) and I think that would greatly appeal to him. 

It's a really strange situation for sure. To make matters worse, the OM/H is an IT specialist, and his son does not have a personal computer/laptop. My bf has received e-mails from his ex-W for school events, etc that he said didn't sound like her. 

His son asked him directly about what happened, why they divorced. He told me he's afraid he treated him too much like an adult and was too direct about what he said. 

To give you some context, his ex was his first g/f, they got married after dating for 7 yrs when they finished college and started a family in their late 20's. He was about 28 I think? Then divorced by 35. He worked F-T and came home and took care of the kids, while she went to work evenings as a personal trainer. The AP/H was one of her clients.


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## heartsbeating

TXTrini said:


> His son asked him directly about what happened, why they divorced. He told me he's afraid he treated him too much like an adult and was too direct about what he said.


My view is that he felt old enough to ask, so he's old enough to hear the response.

I'm a bit confused though - the daughter told her dad / your bf 'you know what you did' and he has been unable to understand what that's about?

Something is off here. I'm not suggesting necessarily off with your bf... it could be what the mother or her new husband has said... but it's just not adding up.


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## TXTrini

heartsbeating said:


> My view is that he felt old enough to ask, so he's old enough to hear the response.
> 
> I'm a bit confused though - the daughter told her dad / your bf 'you know what you did' and he has been unable to understand what that's about?
> 
> Something is off here. I'm not suggesting necessarily off with your bf... it could be what the mother or her new husband has said... but it's just not adding up.


Well, my bf thought so too, so he laid it out. He's old enough to start putting facts together and start learning discernment.

I've asked him about that, his take was maybe not sticking around to "make things work for the kids". Nobody knows until she cares to explain. Hopefully, that will happen one day. He's worried it won't since she didn't move out for college. 

I was skeptical until I met his mom and saw her face when she told me some stories. The exW had her daughter stealing things instead of simply asking, pictures, small trinkets, etc from grandma's.


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## frusdil

TXTrini said:


> I totally agree.
> 
> That e-mail suggestion sounds wonderful, thank you! I think he might like being able to write him and then share the details later. He's a sensitive man (the kind some women love to make fun of) and I think that would greatly appeal to him.
> 
> It's a really strange situation for sure. To make matters worse, the OM/H is an IT specialist, and his son does not have a personal computer/laptop. My bf has received e-mails from his ex-W for school events, etc that he said didn't sound like her.
> 
> His son asked him directly about what happened, why they divorced. He told me he's afraid he treated him too much like an adult and was too direct about what he said.
> 
> To give you some context, his ex was his first g/f, they got married after dating for 7 yrs when they finished college and started a family in their late 20's. He was about 28 I think? Then divorced by 35. He worked F-T and came home and took care of the kids, while she went to work evenings as a personal trainer. The AP/H was one of her clients.



It sounds like both the Mum and POSOM are both in on the alienation.

There's a great book called 'Divorce Poison', about PA. It explains the different types of PA and gives examples of how to manage it. One of the things it says is that it IS ok to correct the alienation, but don't bag the other parent in the process.

EG, when my stepdaughter was younger we had a bit of this going on, she'd say things like "Daddy did nothing for me, Mummy did EVERYTHING". At first I let it go, just changed the subject, but after reading the book I would respond "Oh dear, I think Mummy's memory is playing tricks on her again, lol! Mummy looked after you at home, and Daddy went to work he could look after you both, remember?" and I'd show her photos of the two of them with Daddy doing things with her, or the two of them out somewhere together etc. it helped. Confused her a little at first, but it made her question things and she soon realised that what Mummy was telling her and what Daddy was doing didn't match up.


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## TXTrini

frusdil said:


> It sounds like both the Mum and POSOM are both in on the alienation.
> 
> There's a great book called 'Divorce Poison', about PA. It explains the different types of PA and gives examples of how to manage it. One of the things it says is that it IS ok to correct the alienation, but don't bag the other parent in the process.
> 
> EG, when my stepdaughter was younger we had a bit of this going on, she'd say things like "Daddy did nothing for me, Mummy did EVERYTHING". At first I let it go, just changed the subject, but after reading the book I would respond "Oh dear, I think Mummy's memory is playing tricks on her again, lol! Mummy looked after you at home, and Daddy went to work he could look after you both, remember?" and I'd show her photos of the two of them with Daddy doing things with her, or the two of them out somewhere together etc. it helped. Confused her a little at first, but it made her question things and she soon realised that what Mummy was telling her and what Daddy was doing didn't match up.


Thank you! I'll grab that book for him. It'll give him something to do while he figures things out. I think they are, but how could anyone do that to their own kid? His mom must see how he's hurting. Oh, apparently he doesn't have friends, doesn't go to visit other kids, or have any over. It's quite unusual, he's in junior varsity and isn't an awkward-looking kid.

My bf pretty much sacrificed his career to remain close to them, not working weekends, working the first shift to have max time, forgoing sleep, etc. He never misses any child support, even in between jobs. 

Everything he's done has revolved around them, even to the point where it was an issue for us at first. He'd totally disappear from the grid when he had his son and we went nearly a month without seeing each other when he had him for summer. He knew his time was limited, b/c he's growing up, and spending time with his old man won't be "cool", but not this.


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## TXTrini

So my bf saw a lawyer and a counselor this evening and then went over to see his son. He's emotionally and physically exhausted atm, so I'll get details tomorrow and post an update.


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## heartsbeating

TXTrini said:


> So my bf saw a lawyer and a counselor this evening and then went over to see his son. He's emotionally and physically exhausted atm, so I'll get details tomorrow and post an update.


No doubt this would be mentally / emotionally draining... I think it's great he is taking action to figure things out.


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## Mr.Married

I don’t have too much to add but I just exited Oil & Gas myself so I fell your pain. Tell him to look on www.rigzone.com 

Anyways... right now all this is real fresh and raw with both him and his kid. I’d give it one week before you make any big plans.


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## TXTrini

Mr.Married said:


> I don’t have too much to add but I just exited Oil & Gas myself so I fell your pain. Tell him to look on www.rigzone.com
> 
> Anyways... right now all this is real fresh and raw with both him and his kid. I’d give it one week before you make any big plans.


Oh, I feel it too. My company laid off 75% of its workers (Travel), I'm currently working on retraining for another industry.

Thank you! He'll be grateful for the link, he's a neighbor of yours, btw!


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## TXTrini

Update:
Sorry, this is so long in coming, but I was trying to be patient and not ask questions, but wait for my bf to disclose details when he was up to it.

He saw his son that day after seeing a lawyer and a therapist. His son didn't say much but is still holding fast on not wanting to see him. He's even removed him from multiple social media platforms and phone location sharing and it's hitting my bf hard. 

My bf decided to get regular therapy to learn some coping mechanisms and basically wait things out since he can't do anything atm. Unfortunately, unless he can prove it's his ex pulling the strings, he can't take legal action. It's killing him, but he's trying to focus more on himself, and we're actually spending more time together, which is nice, but I can't devote 100% of the extra time to him. 

He says just being together is enough, and I try to be present, but at the same time, I still have my stuff to get done too. Should I ask more questions or keep it how it is, not prodding, but open to talking? I'm not a parent, and I don't fully understand how he's feeling, but I care about his well-being and don't want to be callous.


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## samyeagar

Went through this with my ex wife, who cheated with my youngest child's teacher.

Long and short, pursuing an alienation case has an extremely low possibility of success in getting any kind of damages against the alienating parent. Regardless of the outcome, it will cost in the six figures, take years, and will likely end up with no legal remedy. And of course, even with legal remedy against the alienating parent, there is no way to legally force the child to have a relationship with the parent, especially after they are 18.

Despite my continued regular reaching out through various methods including hand written letters, my daughter has been zero contact with me since 2012. She is now 23. My oldest son is 25, and contact is few and far between. My youngest son is 19, and it's been over a year.

It saddens me deeply, but I also know that I didn't do anything wrong to lead to this. Yes they are still young, yes they were children, but at some point, their decisions are their own to take responsibility for.


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## TXTrini

samyeagar said:


> Went through this with my ex wife, who cheated with my youngest child's teacher.
> 
> Long and short, pursuing an alienation case has an extremely low possibility of success in getting any kind of damages against the alienating parent. Regardless of the outcome, it will cost in the six figures, take years, and will likely end up with no legal remedy. And of course, even with legal remedy against the alienating parent, there is no way to legally force the child to have a relationship with the parent, especially after they are 18.
> 
> Despite my continued regular reaching out through various methods including hand written letters, my daughter has been zero contact with me since 2012. She is now 23. My oldest son is 25, and contact is few and far between. My youngest son is 19, and it's been over a year.
> 
> It saddens me deeply, but I also know that I didn't do anything wrong to lead to this. Yes they are still young, yes they were children, but at some point, their decisions are their own to take responsibility for.


Thank you for sharing your story, samyeagar. I hate that you are living this nightmare, talk about adding insult to injury! 

My bf isn't going to fight legally, he has no grounds and quite frankly isn't financially sound enough to fight futile battles. He's decided to get therapy for himself to cope, and maybe find a way to reach out more. 

Did your children ever tell you why they want nothing to do with you? Do they know what their mother did and why you divorced? I completely agree that they must take responsibility for their own decisions, but damn it must hurt to be the wrong one in all of this and have that added to the list of injustices.


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## samyeagar

TXTrini said:


> Thank you for sharing your story, samyeagar. I hate that you are living this nightmare, talk about adding insult to injury!
> 
> My bf isn't going to fight legally, he has no grounds and quite frankly isn't financially sound enough to fight futile battles. He's decided to get therapy for himself to cope, and maybe find a way to reach out more.
> 
> Did your children ever tell you why they want nothing to do with you? Do they know what their mother did and why you divorced? I completely agree that they must take responsibility for their own decisions, but damn it must hurt to be the wrong one in all of this and have that added to the list of injustices.


One very important note here is that my ex wife is diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder. One thing I learned very quickly was in my state, husbands and fathers going into the family courts here, while a civil court, they are very much defendants who are assumed guilty. 

None of the kids told me specifically, but I was able to gleam bits and pieces of what their mother was telling them. The last conversation I had with my daughter was her telling me to buy her a $3500 trumpet because I could afford it since I was taking all the money. My ex wife put them in therapy to help cope with the trauma of divorce, and one of the things that came out in therapy was a number of repressed memories of me emotionally, physically and sexually abusing my ex wife and kids, me being very controlling with the finances. Of course all of those things are completely false, and much of it was direct projection onto me things my ex wife actually did to me.

My ex wife also regularly loaded up the kids' schedules with all kinds of fun activities, and in order to get my parenting time, I was put in the position of telling them they couldn't do those things. Sure, I could have, and tried my best to provide competing funness to soften that, but when we divorced, I had to move closer to where I worked because I could no longer afford the 3 hours worth of driving a day on functionally 30% of my income with the rest going to them. And with the kids being early teens, their social lives entirely in the town they grew up in and where they lived with their mother...there is no way I could compete with that.


----------



## minimalME

Not that I would want this for anyone else, but it's comforting to know I'm not alone.

I've been divorced for a decade. Throughout the years, my daughters have each made passing, vague comments that have communicated that their dad has bad-mouthed me to them. I don't ask questions. I don't want details.

I've read many articles on this topic, and I think it's kind of like a gang mentality. The malicious gossip is a way for people to vent their anger and bond. The psychological term is scapegoating.

I was not a good mom. I probably never should have been a mom. Having said that, I take responsibility for my behavior and my choices, and I'm very open and honest about my failures.

There have been many consequences for my decisions, and I accept them.

I realized last year that it's been over 10 years since I asked my husband for a divorce, and I've spent a lot of mental energy working through the hurt of being rejected by my older two children (who're both creeping towards 30), and I've made my peace with it.

I'll always be willing to work on the relationships, but I've let go, and I don't 'chase' anyone anymore.


----------



## TXTrini

samyeagar said:


> One very important note here is that my ex wife is diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder. One thing I learned very quickly was in my state, husbands and fathers going into the family courts here, while a civil court, they are very much defendants who are assumed guilty.
> 
> None of the kids told me specifically, but I was able to gleam bits and pieces of what their mother was telling them. The last conversation I had with my daughter was her telling me to buy her a $3500 trumpet because I could afford it since I was taking all the money. My ex wife put them in therapy to help cope with the trauma of divorce, and one of the things that came out in therapy was a number of repressed memories of me emotionally, physically and sexually abusing my ex wife and kids, me being very controlling with the finances. Of course all of those things are completely false, and much of it was direct projection onto me things my ex wife actually did to me.
> 
> My ex wife also regularly loaded up the kids' schedules with all kinds of fun activities, and in order to get my parenting time, I was put in the position of telling them they couldn't do those things. Sure, I could have, and tried my best to provide competing funness to soften that, but when we divorced, I had to move closer to where I worked because I could no longer afford the 3 hours worth of driving a day on functionally 30% of my income with the rest going to them. And with the kids being early teens, their social lives entirely in the town they grew up in and where they lived with their mother...there is no way I could compete with that.


Wow, that sounds very similar to what he's dealing with. He used to provide most of the childcare before the divorce, his ex wasn't particularly maternal. She met her AP at her job (evenings), and filed domestic abuse charges against my bf. It was a bargaining tool, she dropped it if he agreed to waive the 6 month waiting period after divorce to remarry. 

I guess I can't understand why certain things wouldn't be obvious bc of cold hard facts, they're old enough to see an inkling of the truth. Honestly, I think they like their life with their mom and AP bc the OM (now stepfather) is better off financially and controls all of them by money, so they don't want to upset the gravy train. Of course I can't tell him that, but he's an intelligent man, he knows deep down.

Are you in contact with your kids at all, besides when they need something?


----------



## TXTrini

minimalME said:


> Not that I would want this for anyone else, but it's comforting to know I'm not alone.
> 
> I've been divorced for a decade. Throughout the years, my daughters have each made passing, vague comments that have communicated that their dad has bad-mouthed me to them. I don't ask questions. I don't want details.
> 
> I've read many articles on this topic, and I think it's kind of like a gang mentality. The malicious gossip is a way for people to vent their anger and bond. The psychological term is scapegoating.
> 
> I was not a good mom. I probably never should have been a mom. Having said that, I take responsibility for my behavior and my choices, and I'm very open and honest about my failures.
> 
> There have been many consequences for my decisions, and I accept them.
> 
> I realized last year that it's been 10 years since I asked my husband for a divorce, and I've spent a lot of mental energy working through the hurt of being rejected by my older two children (who're both creeping towards 30), and I've made my peace with it.
> 
> I'll always be willing to work on the relationships, but I've let go, and I don't 'chase' anyone anymore.


Hi! Great to see you back, though I'm sorry it has to be for a sore spot like this topic. It's admirable that you accepted your failings, but weren't they grown when you divorced? People make mistakes, maybe they'll be more forgiving when they see that in themselves. 

He went through this before with his daughter and wasn't looking for it from his son, they were close. He can't figure out what he did wrong and why everything changed so suddenly. The only thing that happened recently was, his son asked why they divorced and he told him about his mom's affair, who she married very soon after.


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## samyeagar

TXTrini said:


> Wow, that sounds very similar to what he's dealing with. He used to provide most of the childcare before the divorce, his ex wasn't particularly maternal. She met her AP at her job (evenings), and filed domestic abuse charges against my bf. It was a bargaining tool, she dropped it if he agreed to waive the 6 month waiting period after divorce to remarry.
> 
> I guess I can't understand why certain things wouldn't be obvious bc of cold hard facts, they're old enough to see an inkling of the truth. Honestly, I think they like their life with their mom and AP bc the OM (now stepfather) is better off financially and controls all of them by money, so they don't want to upset the gravy train. Of course I can't tell him that, but he's an intelligent man, he knows deep down.
> 
> Are you in contact with your kids at all, besides when they need something?


I still try and stay in contact. Calls that go unanswered, text messages to aren't read, hand written letters that I don't know if they even read them. They don't reach out when they want things, so at least they are not being users. The thing is, most kids in this age group are selfish little jerks deep down and will almost always take the easiest and most comfortable route, and not really give much thought beyond their own desires, and will stick with whom or what indulges them the most.


----------



## ConanHub

samyeagar said:


> I still try and stay in contact. Calls that go unanswered, text messages to aren't read, hand written letters that I don't know if they even read them. They don't reach out when they want things, so at least they are not being users. The thing is, most kids in this age group are selfish little jerks deep down and will almost always take the easiest and most comfortable route, and not really give much thought beyond their own desires, and will stick with whom or what indulges them the most.


That's rough dude!


----------



## minimalME

No - my problems existed throughout, and that's what I take responsibility for and am willing to discuss.

However, I'm not going to bear the burden for the issues of others or for deliberate distortions or faulty memories.



TXTrini said:


> It's admirable that you accepted your failings, but weren't they grown when you divorced? People make mistakes, maybe they'll be more forgiving when they see that in themselves.


----------



## TXTrini

samyeagar said:


> I still try and stay in contact. Calls that go unanswered, text messages to aren't read, hand written letters that I don't know if they even read them. They don't reach out when they want things, so at least they are not being users. The thing is, most kids in this age group are selfish little jerks deep down and will almost always take the easiest and most comfortable route, and not really give much thought beyond their own desires, and will stick with whom or what indulges them the most.


I completely agree with you and dread the circumstances that must happen to wake this generation up.
That must hurt like hell though, it would be one thing if you deserved it. Hopefully they will realize what they've done before it's too late and make ammends.


minimalME said:


> No - my problems existed throughout, and that's what I take responsibility for and am willling to discuss.
> 
> However, I'm not going to bear the burden for the issues of others or for deliberate distortions or faulty memories.


No one's perfect. I think the mark of maturity is acknowledging the things you've done and living with the consequences. It's just a pity when people think they have all the time in the world to make things right.


----------



## samyeagar

TXTrini said:


> I completely agree with you and dread the circumstances that must happen to wake this generation up.
> That must hurt like hell though, it would be one thing if you deserved it. *Hopefully they will realize what they've done before it's too late and make ammends*.
> 
> No one's perfect. I think the mark of maturity is acknowledging the things you've done and living with the consequences. It's just a pity when people think they have all the time in the world to make things right.


It does hurt. But I do find some comfort in the fact that I came through that relationship with their mother with my head held high. Of course I was not perfect, but I did take the high road, and made the best decisions I could in the aspects that I could control. Everything else was out of my hands. I had hopes that my example would be good enough and strong enough to help the kids down the right path, but alas, it was not.

In time, they may see things through a different lens, one with more life experience, and I would welcome a relationship with them with no animosity nor apologies needed. But that is their decision to make. I can't force it, or make it for them.


----------



## TXTrini

Like you, my bf tried to take the high road. He wanted to protect his children until they were old enough to understand. 

Standing on principle is always painful when it matters, but it serves as an example of what to strive for. I truly hope they come around, no parent deserves this.


----------



## 2&out

Lawyers and Court is a waste of time and money. No court is going to force a 16 year old to see a parent they don't want to. This has zero to do with the EX.


----------



## samyeagar

2&out said:


> Lawyers and Court is a waste of time and money. No court is going to force a 16 year old to see a parent they don't want to. This has zero to do with the EX.


Parental Alienation has everything to do with exes. Alienating parents often say and do things that discourage the child from having a relationship with the other parent. Often it is done over a period of time, saying bad things about the other parent, portraying them as some sort of monster, twisting things, sometimes even flat out lying.


----------



## TXTrini

2&out said:


> Lawyers and Court is a waste of time and money. No court is going to force a 16 year old to see a parent they don't want to. This has zero to do with the EX.


I agree that going to court is a waste of time/money atm, but it's not that simple. It absolutely has to do with his ex in this case, this whole situation happened immediately after his son asked him what happened, they had no issues before then.

Obviously, his mother told him something to counteract my bf's story, but no-one is talking. The ex has a history of mental illness (she was institutionalized when she was younger for attempted suicide) and guilt-tripped the son before when he considered living with my bf at 12.


----------



## TXTrini

samyeagar said:


> Parental Alienation has everything to do with exes. Alienating parents often say and do things that discourage the child from having a relationship with the other parent. Often it is done over a period of time, saying bad things about the other parent, portraying them as some sort of monster, twisting things, sometimes even flat out lying.


Mmhmm, and I don't understand why, the truth always comes out in the end. It has been happening, but his son has been very closemouthed and never given details. He'd ask a question or make a comment out of the blue, I suppose not to be disloyal to his mom since he lives with her?

He was going to live with my bf when he was 12, but changed his mind after his mother said she didn't know what she would "do" without him. Things have been getting difficult for him at home over the last year or so, my bf reminded him he was welcome to live with him. However, he told him flat out, he won't b/c of the better school district and "resources" at home. It's killing my bf, though he's trying to accept it. He doesn't know how to put himself first, everything was for his kids.


----------



## TomNebraska

samyeagar said:


> One very important note here is that my ex wife is diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder. One thing I learned very quickly was in my state, husbands and fathers going into the family courts here, while a civil court, they are very much defendants who are assumed guilty.
> 
> None of the kids told me specifically, but I was able to gleam bits and pieces of what their mother was telling them. The last conversation I had with my daughter was her telling me to buy her a $3500 trumpet because I could afford it since I was taking all the money. My ex wife put them in therapy to help cope with the trauma of divorce, and one of the things that came out in therapy was a number of repressed memories of me emotionally, physically and sexually abusing my ex wife and kids, me being very controlling with the finances. Of course all of those things are completely false, and much of it was direct projection onto me things my ex wife actually did to me.
> 
> My ex wife also regularly loaded up the kids' schedules with all kinds of fun activities, and in order to get my parenting time, I was put in the position of telling them they couldn't do those things. Sure, I could have, and tried my best to provide competing funness to soften that, but when we divorced, I had to move closer to where I worked because I could no longer afford the 3 hours worth of driving a day on functionally 30% of my income with the rest going to them. And with the kids being early teens, their social lives entirely in the town they grew up in and where they lived with their mother...there is no way I could compete with that.


My XW is doing some of these same things. Yikes, yikes, yikes.

it's crazy... like is there a website on "how to do parental alienation" they all read?


----------



## TomNebraska

TXTrini said:


> Mmhmm, and I don't understand why, the truth always comes out in the end. It has been happening, but his son has been very closemouthed and never given details. He'd ask a question or make a comment out of the blue, I suppose not to be disloyal to his mom since he lives with her?
> 
> He was going to live with my bf when he was 12, but changed his mind after his mother said she didn't know what she would "do" without him. Things have been getting difficult for him at home over the last year or so, my bf reminded him he was welcome to live with him. However, he told him flat out, he won't b/c of the better school district and "resources" at home. It's killing my bf, though he's trying to accept it. He doesn't know how to put himself first, everything was for his kids.


It sounds like the Ex knew of the 12 year old rule thing in TX and really ratcheted up the crazyness at that point, to prevent him from leaving.


----------



## TXTrini

TomNebraska said:


> My XW is doing some of these same things. Yikes, yikes, yikes.
> 
> it's crazy... like is there a website on "how to do parental alienation" they all read?


Ugh, I'm sorry you have to deal with this too. I can't understand why anyone would do this to their own children to stick it to the ex-spouse.



TomNebraska said:


> It sounds like the Ex knew of the 12 year old rule thing in TX and really ratcheted up the crazyness at that point, to prevent him from leaving.


Yeah, it's a real ****ty situation all around. It hit him like ton of bricks, b/c he went through this with his daughter. He wasn't looking for it from his son since they were so close.


----------



## SunCMars

TXTrini said:


> He never lost custody, I was speculating about the AP's BW losing custody of her children. He only gets him every other weekend, and for dinner's once during the week.
> 
> My bf barely drinks, doesn't do drugs. He is underemployed at the moment (was laid off from a much better paying job when oil & gas took a hit after Covid) and is still hunting for something suitable to his qualifications. Unfortunately, his profession is in low demand atm unless he moves to a city and he wants to remain close to his kid.


Thank the Biden administration for crashing the oil and gas jobs. He wiped out 10K good paying union jobs the first week.

The good thing...

Your BF's son will soon grow up and then can be shown the truth. In the meantime let the boy know he is loved.

This is hard at this point, I know.


----------



## TXTrini

SunCMars said:


> Thank the Biden administration for crashing the oil and gas jobs. He wiped out 10K good paying union jobs the first week.
> 
> The good thing...
> 
> Your BF's son will soon grow up and then can be shown the truth. In the meantime let the boy know he is loved.
> 
> This is hard at this point, I know.


Tell me about it, mine was collateral damage too (travel and tourism). I get that, but he doesn't. He's struggling for motivation to go on. I'm sad for him and don't know how to help. 

Everyone's been great with advice, the hardest one now is yours. Waiting...


----------



## TomNebraska

I think - regardless of who is in office - the O&G industry is going to keep contracting... the writing is on the wall at this point. Renewable energy is growing, both here and abroad, and that simply reduces the demand for petroleum. 

He'd be well advised to look to change industries; even in oil-friendly TX, wind & solar are growing...


----------



## SunCMars

TXTrini said:


> Ugh, I'm sorry you have to deal with this too. I can't understand why anyone would do this to their own children to stick it to the ex-spouse.
> 
> 
> Yeah, it's a real ****ty situation all around. It hit him like ton of bricks, b/c he went through this with his daughter. He wasn't looking for it from his son since they were so close.


Dad needs to take his son horse bike riding, ocean fishing, to the rodeo, anything that is father/son bonding.

I know, money is tight, spend it wisely.

Actions speak louder than words.

Dad needs to (always) be that easy-going pleasant face!


----------



## TXTrini

SunCMars said:


> Dad needs to take his son horse bike riding, ocean fishing, to the rodeo, anything that is father/son bonding.
> 
> I know, money is tight, spend it wisely.
> 
> Actions speak louder than words.
> 
> Dad needs to (always) be that easy-going pleasant face!


He's actually done all of that , he takes him (took) on yearly summer vacations. They always had a great time, until now. I never cared for kids myself, and I think he's a great dad.

It's hard to see people who really make an effort get their assessment kicked, while ****ty parents are sought after, you know?


----------



## SunCMars

TXTrini said:


> He's actually done all of that , he takes him (took) on yearly summer vacations. They always had a great time, until now. I never cared for kids myself, and I think he's a great dad.
> 
> It's hard to see people who really make an effort get their assessment kicked, while ****ty parents are sought after, you know?


Getting affection from loving people becomes a given, no effort needed. That affection is foolishly downplayed by the recipients. 

That which is easily obtained holds less value.

Those that withhold their love are chased after. 

This amounts to a perverse form of reverse psychology.


----------



## TXTrini

SunCMars said:


> Getting affection from loving people becomes a given, no effort needed. That affection is foolishly downplayed by the recipients.
> 
> That which is easily obtained holds less value.
> 
> Those that withhold their love are chased after.
> 
> This amounts to a perverse form of reverse psychology.


You are so right! Sadly, I've seen that trope play out several times in my life. Sorry I've been AWOL all weekend, but we spent the weekend together. 

He's managing ok, but his eyes got teary at father/son scenes in a movie we watched. He decided to focus on the good things going on in his life (us), be happy in the moment and be patient until he comes back to him.


----------



## TXTrini

Update:
So it's been 3 months since this whole shenanigans started and not much has changed. My bf still goes for his visits until he is told to leave and documents every one of them faithfully and he still receives weekly counseling to cope. He has not seen his son since, except afar during a sporting event, although his exW demanded he stops attending or communicating with his coach.

I got that book Frusdil recommended, but he hasn't worked up to reading it yet, however, he decided to engage a lawyer to fight. His aim is not to fight to see his son but to insist the State requires him to get therapy, to have someone else to talk to besides his mother, stepfather and sister. Although Texas is opened up, he still does school online and lives in a bubble. 

We've been spending more time together and things have been going well for us, but I know it's still very hard for him. I don't push him to talk, though weirdly enough he confides in my mom, but I see the sadness in his eyes during father/son scenes on a show.

His son still refuses any kind of communication, so he has no idea what's going on in his life. It was particularly hard last weekend, for Father's Day. I didn't encroach on his space, just let him know I was there for him if he wanted me to be, but I was also busy wrapping up some deadlines and he preferred not to come over. 

I still can't understand why his mother would rather see her son suffer just to stick it to her ex, it's so heartless.


----------



## Torninhalf

TXTrini said:


> Update:
> So it's been 3 months since this whole shenanigans started and not much has changed. My bf still goes for his visits until he is told to leave and documents every one of them faithfully and he still receives weekly counseling to cope. He has not seen his son since, except afar during a sporting event, although his exW demanded he stops attending or communicating with his coach.
> 
> I got that book Frusdil recommended, but he hasn't worked up to reading it yet, however, he decided to engage a lawyer to fight. His aim is not to fight to see his son but to insist the State requires him to get therapy, to have someone else to talk to besides his mother, stepfather and sister. Although Texas is opened up, he still does school online and lives in a bubble.
> 
> We've been spending more time together and things have been going well for us, but I know it's still very hard for him. I don't push him to talk, though weirdly enough he confides in my mom, but I see the sadness in his eyes during father/son scenes on a show.
> 
> His son still refuses any kind of communication, so he has no idea what's going on in his life. It was particularly hard last weekend, for Father's Day. I didn't encroach on his space, just let him know I was there for him if he wanted me to be, but I was also busy wrapping up some deadlines and he preferred not to come over.
> 
> I still can't understand why his mother would rather see her son suffer just to stick it to her ex, it's so heartless.


Such horrible behavior.


----------



## TXTrini

So things just took a nasty turn. The ex filed a protective order on behalf of their son against my bf, with some very serious, NASTY allegations. My bf has a few weeks to respond and is completely heartbroken 💔. He's in shock that his son could turn against him so completely and tell outright lies. There are some potentially horrific consequences.

Has anyone dealt with this?
Any advice?


----------



## minimalME

This write up isn't specifically labeled 'paretal alienation', but the dynamic is related. 

I found it accurate - especially this:

_They know that the targeted parent will try to rectify the situation. They react in a way that is illogical: refusing to answer questions, insisting that any apology is a manipulative lie and therefore is insincere..._

In my opinion, this is part of the fallout of having raised the past few generations on pleasure and entertainment, which has left young adults immature and ill equipped.

The expectation seems to be that relationships, and life in general, should be perfect and without pain. 

There are endless memes on facebook about cutting anyone and everyone out of your life, which is completely unrealistic and a self-absorbed way to live.









The Brainwashing Behind Going No Contact | Gransnet


I hope it's OK to post this here. I'm sure Gransnet will move it if it's not but in view of all those estranged, cut off parents unable to understand




www.gransnet.com


----------



## minimalME

From one of the comments on the same page:

_Part of it has emerged as a direct result on the 1989 Children's Act where rights and power were handed to children placing above them the control of not only their parents but teachers and authority in general. There is now research identifying the current generation of 30 something year olds as being prone to depression because of their idealized perception of what their rights actually mean. Notwithstanding this they,not all but some, also have a very unrealistic expectation of not only life but their parents too. Meanwhile the Children's Act hasn't solved the problem of child abuse which was it's original intention._

And from the same post...

_Funnily enough, in all my research I was unable to find any advice that advocated how to communicate effectively with your family. _


----------



## TXTrini

minimalME said:


> From one of the comments on the same page:
> 
> _Part of it has emerged as a direct result on the 1989 Children's Act where rights and power were handed to children placing above them the control of not only their parents but teachers and authority in general. There is now research identifying the current generation of 30 something year olds as being prone to depression because of their idealized perception of what their rights actually mean. Notwithstanding this they,not all but some, also have a very unrealistic expectation of not only life but their parents too. Meanwhile the Children's Act hasn't solved the problem of child abuse which was it's original intention._
> 
> And from the same post...
> 
> _Funnily enough, in all my research I was unable to find any advice that advocated how to communicate effectively with your family. _


Thanks so much @minimalME. I'll pass it on to my bf. Since I posted, he's had mediation and is now forced into no contact or he'll face legal consequences. 

He's still fragile, but he gets up everyday, goes to work and keeps busy. He's been in ongoing therapy since it started, so while he's hanging in there, he's upset that his son is cut off and isolated. 

His son withdrew from all extracurricular activites, which will hurt his college scholarship chances and goes to school online. We're in Texas, nothing is shut down , people go maskless if they want to, especially out of the big cities. He doesn't have friends, does have anyone over or go to anyone, he's always in that house. 

My bf is really worried about how all of that affects him, especially given his mental health problems. He tried to commit suicide twice. The only thing left to do now is wait for something to happen, his hands are now tied.


----------



## minimalME

I'm very sorry for all they're going through. 😞


----------



## TXTrini

DownByTheRiver said:


> So he had to have relinquished him to begin with, like I said in the much earlier post. He either had to have done something unfit and not done anything to rectify it or he had to relinquish him of his own free will, so not sure why he would expect to still have a good relationship with a kid he either didn't rehab himself for or abandoned willingly, likely to avoid paying child support.
> 
> And to get an order of protection, he must be doing something unacceptable even still now. Those are not done by accusation only! Any history between the parents with regards to cheating is irrelevant to all this. She got custody. That does not happen in a vacuum, and is particularly hard to take custody from a father in Texas, so he had to have made his own bad decisions back then to be in this situation and probably needs to stop blaming others for it and take some responsibility.
> 
> Sorry if this isn't the support you were hoping for, but it's true. The kid will be 18 in another year if I'm doing the math right and at that time, he'll know for sure if the boy wants him in his life or not because there will be nothing holding him back.


He did not relinquish him and has done nothing unfit, but accusations were made that if proven true will land him in jail. They haven't. He's still paying child support and half of his medical bills willingly, even while he was unemployed after being laid off during the pandemic.

Anyway, I'm not going to argue with you, you obviously know,y bf and all the details of his life better than me.


----------



## Twodecades

DownByTheRiver said:


> The kid will be 18 in another year if I'm doing the math right and at that time, he'll know for sure if the boy wants him in his life or not because there will be nothing holding him back.


It's true that none of us was there and were able to witness what was going on, but it's also very possible that the mom and stepdad have turned the kid against his dad for their own selfish reasons. There is a lot of psychological twisting involved in parental alienation. That's the point of this thread.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Twodecades said:


> It's true that none of us was there and were able to witness what was going on, but it's also very possible that the mom and stepdad have turned the kid against his dad for their own selfish reasons. There is a lot of psychological twisting involved in parental alienation. That's the point of this thread.


Yeah, but you can do that separate and apart of him losing custody. That wouldn't have to do with him losing custody. It's not grounds.


----------



## LATERILUS79

DownByTheRiver said:


> So he had to have relinquished him to begin with, like I said in the much earlier post. He either had to have done something unfit and not done anything to rectify it or he had to relinquish him of his own free will, so not sure why he would expect to still have a good relationship with a kid he either didn't rehab himself for or abandoned willingly, likely to avoid paying child support.
> 
> And to get an order of protection, he must be doing something unacceptable even still now. Those are not done by accusation only! Any history between the parents with regards to cheating is irrelevant to all this. She got custody. That does not happen in a vacuum, and is particularly hard to take custody from a father in Texas, so he had to have made his own bad decisions back then to be in this situation and probably needs to stop blaming others for it and take some responsibility.
> 
> Sorry if this isn't the support you were hoping for, but it's true. The kid will be 18 in another year if I'm doing the math right and at that time, he'll know for sure if the boy wants him in his life or not because there will be nothing holding him back.


Sorry this isn’t the support you were looking for?

Was this an attempt to try and help? I’m curious, was this an attempt to get TXTrini to get rid of her boyfriend who is apparently an “unfit” father?

i am beyond shocked you were able to know so much about this heartbroken man without ever knowing him. A man that wants to have a loving relationship with his children.

ever stop to think maybe the mother, a known cheater, LIED to their children and manipulated them when they were young? Does it seem plausible to you that a cheater that has no remorse would care very little if she continued to hurt this man in multiple different ways including ruining his relationship with his kids? Do you think it is possible that this lying cheater of a mother wanted to make sure she didn’t lose her children so she made up a bunch of stories about their father so that she didn’t look like the bad guy to the children? What’s most likely to have happened here is that the known LIAR of the story manipulated the kids because she is good at it - she has a lot of practice from cheating. She worked her manipulation game hard to turn the kids against their father. A good manipulator can also turn courts against people as well. Especially one that comes in with a United front with her AP. I bet she was able to make it look like she had a complete and happy family. Let’s also not forget that good lawyers don’t come cheap - who is to say that the cheater didn’t get money from her AP to get a great lawyer? 
you are assuming the courts are 100% right here and TXTrini’s BF is automatically wrong. 

I’m glad TXTrini’s BF isn’t here to see such a disgusting and wild accusation. You never cease to amaze me with these posts, DBTR. Bad men exist in the world, I know this for a fact. Try not to group in all the good ones with them as well.


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## LATERILUS79

I apologize for the t/j.


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## Twodecades

DownByTheRiver said:


> Yeah, but you can do that separate and apart of him losing custody. That wouldn't have to do with him losing custody. It's not grounds.











Avoiding the Pitfalls of False Assumptions in Parental Alienation Cases


Here’s how to avoid false assumptions in cases of parental alienation to ensure better outcomes for children.



www.psychiatrictimes.com


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## DownByTheRiver

Twodecades said:


> Avoiding the Pitfalls of False Assumptions in Parental Alienation Cases
> 
> 
> Here’s how to avoid false assumptions in cases of parental alienation to ensure better outcomes for children.
> 
> 
> 
> www.psychiatrictimes.com



Number 9 has to do with child alienation, but you'll notice it's the one who is trying to alienate the child from the other parent who loses custody. 

I think they ought to not drag this teen through the mud any more and wait until he's 18 and see what happens then when he's free to do whatever he wants. Why spend a bunch of money. That would be better saved for his college. The courts move slowly, so the child will either be of age or be months from it before it would get settled, no matter how good the attorney. 

*9 Reasons Parents Lose Custody of Their Children in Texas*
There are nine reasons parents could lose their custody rights obtained through a separation or divorce in Texas.
*1. Child abuse*
The number one reason a parent could lose custody of their children in Texas is child abuse. If a parent has physically abused their child, the court may terminate their parental rights and allow the other parent to obtain full custody rights. In Texas, having full custody is known as sole managing conservatorship.
When a parent is accused of child abuse, the Child Protective Services (CPS) might get involved to investigate complaints of abuse.
Note: In Texas, a parent may lose custody of their own children even if they abuse another child in the family or the other parent of their child.
*2. Abandonment*
Texas law recognizes several forms of abandonment that may result in the termination of a parent’s custody rights. Under *Texas Penal Code § 22.041*, a parent may abandon their child if any of the following is true:

A father abandons their pregnant girlfriend or wife (the child’s biological mother) during pregnancy and refuses or fails to support their child financially after childbirth.
A parent leaves a child anywhere without reasonable and necessary care and does not plan to return; or
A parent places their child to be in a situation where he or she is subject to mental or emotional injury.
*3. Child neglect*
Texas law defines the term “child neglect” as follows:

Failing to provide a child with shelter, food, clothing, hygiene, and other basic needs;
Failing to provide adequate medical or dental care for a child, which creates a substantial risk of bodily injury, disfigurement, or death;
Placing a child or failing to remove him or her from a situation where the child is exposed to a significant risk of physical, emotional, or mental harm.
If the court finds evidence that a parent abandoned or neglected their child, it may terminate their custody rights.
*4. Substance abuse*
The court might take away a biological mother’s rights if the baby was born addicted to drugs or suffered withdrawal symptoms because the mother consumed illegal drugs during her pregnancy.
A parent who is suffering from substance abuse could also lose custody rights if they are abusing illegal drugs while caring for their children.
When the court believes that a parent is suffering from substance abuse, it may order the parent to seek drug rehabilitation treatment to regain custody rights. If a parent receives the treatment but goes back to abusing drugs after that, the court may terminate the parent’s custody rights permanently.
If a parent’s longstanding substance abuse endangers the child’s safety, the court may have grounds to terminate that parent’s custody and parental rights.
*5. Educational neglect*
Under Texas law, parents risk losing their custody rights if they keep their children out of school or engage in other forms of “educational neglect.” The term educational neglect refers to a parent’s failure or refusal to provide their child with basic needs regarding education and school.
However, homeschooling is not illegal and does not count as educational neglect as long as the parent follows the state’s homeschooling laws.
*6. Termination of parental rights*
A parent loses custody rights if the court terminates their parental rights for another child. If the court terminated your parental rights for one child, but you are seeking custody of another child, it is vital to discuss your options with a Harker Heights custody lawyer.
*7. Violation of court orders*
Following a separation or divorce, Texas family courts may issue various court orders regarding child custody. For example, the court may order a parent to undergo drug rehabilitation to be awarded custody rights. Failure to follow a court order may result in the loss of custody rights.
If a parent violates a parenting plan, visitation, or custody order, they may also lose custody of their child. For example, if the custody order requires you to return a child to the other parent on Sunday, but you fail to do so, the court may hold you in contempt of court.
If you cannot follow a court order for whatever reason, you may want to consider modifying the order. Seek help from a skilled family law attorney to help you request a modification.
*8. Conviction and jail time*
A parent may lose their custody rights if they have been convicted of a serious crime and/or imprisoned. However, depending on the conviction and the prison sentence, a parent may be able to regain their custody rights after completing the sentence.
Note: A parent may not lose custody rights if they are incarcerated for a short period of time.
*9. Child alienation*
The term “child alienation” is a term used to describe a situation where one parent attempts to negatively influence their child’s relationship with the other parent. *If a parent turns the child against the other parent, the alienating parent may lose custody rights.*


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## DownByTheRiver

Trini, I'm assuming these are Texas records, but even if they're not, they are public records, available for anyone to order from a records clerk in that county. I would suggest you guys order a transcript of any child custody proceedings or any proceedings between him and her and read them to see exactly what went on. Like, for example, if he ever missed a hearing or something, he might have missed something. There could be a missing piece. The transcripts will be titled whoever brought the action (like if it was his ex, it would be her name) vs. his name. Or if it was him, his name will be the first listed. You can always call the clerk for whatever court it was and ask if they can provide a title for it. Or maybe he has old papers with that on there.


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## Twodecades

DownByTheRiver said:


> Number 9 has to do with child alienation, but you'll notice it's the one who is trying to alienate the child from the other parent who loses custody.


I don't mean this in a snarky way, but you're missing the point. 

_"Alienation does not involve total rejection. _*Children naturally want to love both of their parents without interruption or impediment. A child does not totally reject a parent unless there is an alienating influence in the mix. *This is true even for abusive parents. Indeed, children who have been verbally, physically, or sexually abused by a parent experience profound ambivalence because they still love the parent. They are upset and in turmoil by the fact that they cannot have a continued relationship despite the well-established abuse.6 *As such, total rejection by a child is much more indicative of alienation.* And *to use a child’s rejection of a parent as corroboration or validation of the rejected parent’s badness can be flat-out wrong.*"


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## DownByTheRiver

Twodecades said:


> I don't mean this in a snarky way, but you're missing the point.
> 
> _"Alienation does not involve total rejection. _*Children naturally want to love both of their parents without interruption or impediment. A child does not totally reject a parent unless there is an alienating influence in the mix. *This is true even for abusive parents. Indeed, children who have been verbally, physically, or sexually abused by a parent experience profound ambivalence because they still love the parent. They are upset and in turmoil by the fact that they cannot have a continued relationship despite the well-established abuse.6 *As such, total rejection by a child is much more indicative of alienation.* And *to use a child’s rejection of a parent as corroboration or validation of the rejected parent’s badness can be flat-out wrong.*"


Which is why it's often at issue in court in child custody cases, so I don't think I'm missing the point, just looking at the bigger picture. I've made no judgment whatsoever whether this poor teen has the correct information and has reached correct conclusions or not. I have suggested that answer might lie in the court transcripts.

But I will say that based on my own personal experience, a teen certainly can decide to reject a parent without the other parent influencing them. They can do it based on their own interactions with that parent. I cut my own mom off for some period of time to have nothing to do with the other parent or custody, just sick of her crap. Not saying that is the case here because no way to know.


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## TXTrini

DownByTheRiver said:


> Which is why it's often at issue in court in child custody cases, so I don't think I'm missing the point, just looking at the bigger picture. I've made no judgment whatsoever whether this poor teen has the correct information and has reached correct conclusions or not. I have suggested that answer might lie in the court transcripts.
> 
> But I will say that based on my own personal experience, a teen certainly can decide to reject a parent without the other parent influencing them. They can do it based on their own interactions with that parent. I cut my own mom off for some period of time to have nothing to do with the other parent or custody, just sick of her crap. Not saying that is the case here because no way to know.


The mother is a cheater and narcissist who knows how to twist the truth to make her look good.

My bf has a lawyer and has seen the accusations and all legaldocuments, but his hands are now tied. He spent a lot of money fighting, so his son will know he loves him and can come to him anytime when he chooses to do so. Eventually, his ex will have noone else to scapegoat and will turn on her children. 

There are many evil women who have no problem sacrificing their children to stick it to their ex. It's interesting this started after his son met me and I spent time with both of them.


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## Diana7

It's a shame that neither child wanted to actually tell him why they didn't want to see him.


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## samyeagar

TXTrini said:


> The mother is a cheater and narcissist who knows how to twist the truth to make her look good.
> 
> My bf has a lawyer and has seen the accusations and all legaldocuments, but his hands are now tied. He spent a lot of money fighting, so his son will know he loves him and can come to him anytime when he chooses to do so. Eventually, his ex will have noone else to scapegoat and will turn on her children.
> 
> There are many evil women who have no problem sacrificing their children to stick it to their ex. It's interesting this started after his son met me and I spent time with both of them.


Yeah, if one would look at my court documents, they would tell a very different story from reality. In my case, the sole basis for the initial restraining order my ex obtained on behalf of my children was the recollection of repressed memories during confidential therapy sessions, coached by my ex-wife. Of course the memories had no basis in truth because what they claim to have recalled never happened. It was never enough to bring actual charges, and it also gave my ex-wife extra martyr points in that she didn't want to pursue charges because as horrible and awful as I was, she could never ever be the one to stand in the way of the kids' relationship with me. When in reality, if charges were ever brought, and she were forced to testify, she would have had to perjure herself. Classic case of driving a public facing benevolent narrative, while having a sinister ulterior motive.


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## TXTrini

samyeagar said:


> Yeah, if one would look at my court documents, they would tell a very different story from reality. In my case, the sole basis for the initial restraining order my ex obtained on behalf of my children was the recollection of repressed memories during confidential therapy sessions, coached by my ex-wife. Of course the memories had no basis in truth because what they claim to have recalled never happened. It was never enough to bring actual charges, and it also gave my ex-wife extra martyr points in that she didn't want to pursue charges because as horrible and awful as I was, she could never ever be the one to stand in the way of the kids' relationship with me. When in reality, if charges were ever brought, and she were forced to testify, she would have had to perjure herself. Classic case of driving a public facing benevolent narrative, while having a sinister ulterior motive.


That sounds like exactly what my bf's dealing with.

What did you end up doing?


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## samyeagar

TXTrini said:


> That sounds like exactly what my bf's dealing with.
> 
> What did you end up doing?


Not a hopeful answer for you, but pretty much the only option left is to hope that one day the kids will soften and want a relationship sometime in the future.


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## TXTrini

samyeagar said:


> Not a hopeful answer for you, but pretty much the only option left is to hope that one day the kids will soften and want a relationship sometime in the future.


That's what I thought, but I wanted to get feedback from parents in case my opinion is biased. Thank you for sharing.


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## Lostinthelight

TXTrini said:


> So I never thought I'd be asking advice on here, being childless. However, my bf just got stomped in the gut recently and I don't know how to help him.
> 
> His 16 y/o son recently told him he doesn't want to see him again after they had a frank discussion on why his parents divorced. He was 5 at the time and didn't know what was happening, and my bf tried to protect him until he was old enough to ask for details.
> 
> His ex-W cheated with a married man 10 yrs her junior, they married each other less than 2 months after the final divorce. Somehow her AP got full custody of his kids and they moved them all in together, ex-WW hasn't worked since. That was about 11 yrs ago.
> 
> His son texted him some very strange things, and he hasn't been able to speak to him on the phone or see him at school events. My bf suspects his son's phone was taken away, and he's being isolated. Ex-WW has his son afraid to go to school (kids have been back to school for months here), he isn't driving yet (delays at the DMV; scheduled appointments only) so he can't just leave. Another factor is, his son made the choice to stay there for financial reasons after my bf begged him to come to live with him.
> 
> I gave him a list of articles I found on parental alienation, and a list of father's rights lawyers to call for a consult and he's doing that now. Has anyone had any experience with this, and fought this successfully? Some advice would be very much appreciated, he's rather overwhelmed at the moment and doesn't know what the heck to do.


I experienced this with my 2 older children, ex and I shared custody however, the alienation began when we were still married. There was enmeshment and emotional incest that went on for years and my children grew to disrespect me as they watched their father beat me to a pulp and verbally abuse me. They grew up to treat me the same way. What your friend needs to do is realize his son is 16 and it will take a while, perhaps years, for his son to truly understand what has happened and that his mother had indoctrinated him and parentified him. She shared her feelings and thoughts and the son was embroiled in the mess and now shares his mother's views towards his father. He has to mature before he can have his own opinions.


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## TXTrini

Lostinthelight said:


> I experienced this with my 2 older children, ex and I shared custody however, the alienation began when we were still married. There was enmeshment and emotional incest that went on for years and my children grew to disrespect me as they watched their father beat me to a pulp and verbally abuse me. They grew up to treat me the same way. What your friend needs to do is realize his son is 16 and it will take a while, perhaps years, for his son to truly understand what has happened and that his mother had indoctrinated him and parentified him. She shared her feelings and thoughts and the son was embroiled in the mess and now shares his mother's views towards his father. He has to mature before he can have his own opinions.


That is horribly sad, I'm sorry you dealt with this on top of the abuse.

My bf got a lawyer to help, but it didn't do anything. His son dealt with very serious mental health issues (attempted suicide and threatened more of it). My bf went into a depression for a bit, then got help, he's definitely not his normal self, but he's doing his best to stay above water.

I told him the same that maybe it will take some time, though obviously, I don't know for sure. The trouble is, it's not just his son that's estranged, but both his children. He was a very involved father, so he couldn't imagine what he did to deserve this treatment. I hope you're right and they can reconcile at some point.

It's a very strange situation, both children have never left home. They don't have friends they see, they're very isolated. I appreciate you sharing your situation and offering some hope, the estrangement is ongoing.


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## Lostinthelight

TXTrini said:


> That is horribly sad, I'm sorry you dealt with this on top of the abuse.
> 
> My bf got a lawyer to help, but it didn't do anything. His son dealt with very serious mental health issues (attempted suicide and threatened more of it). My bf went into a depression for a bit, then got help, he's definitely not his normal self, but he's doing his best to stay above water.
> 
> I told him the same that maybe it will take some time, though obviously, I don't know for sure. The trouble is, it's not just his son that's estranged, but both his children. He was a very involved father, so he couldn't imagine what he did to deserve this treatment. I hope you're right and they can reconcile at some point.
> 
> It's a very strange situation, both children have never left home. They don't have friends they see, they're very isolated. I appreciate you sharing your situation and offering some hope, the estrangement is ongoing.


In cases like this, it's not what he's done but rather the alienation campaign the other parent has gone on with the children. It takes a few days to indoctrinate a child to become a child soldier, look at the tactics of the military, same thing, you go in fresh and come out thinking you are invincible. It will take years for his children to see the truth, and unfortunately, in some cases, they may never. They may continue to behave as the victims, his victims, and truly believe that he has done them all wrong, and they may never come out of that mindset. Alienation plays a very cruel part in these children's lives. They will be mentally scarred for life. I fought for years in court for my children and I maintained custody at all times, and at times, I was given sole custody, however, my children did not want to live me. Now, one has come back to me, and the other continues to take the "victim" stance. I continue to be there for them, no matter what, however, I had to say to them, I am not ok with this behavior. I love you but this is not ok.


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## TXTrini

Lostinthelight said:


> In cases like this, it's not what he's done but rather the alienation campaign the other parent has gone on with the children. It takes a few days to indoctrinate a child to become a child soldier, look at the tactics of the military, same thing, you go in fresh and come out thinking you are invincible. It will take years for his children to see the truth, and unfortunately, in some cases, they may never. They may continue to behave as the victims, his victims, and truly believe that he has done them all wrong, and they may never come out of that mindset. Alienation plays a very cruel part in these children's lives. They will be mentally scarred for life. I fought for years in court for my children and I maintained custody at all times, and at times, I was given sole custody, however, my children did not want to live me. Now, one has come back to me, and the other continues to take the "victim" stance. I continue to be there for them, no matter what, however, I had to say to them, I am not ok with this behavior. I love you but this is not ok.


So it's just wait and see now. That sucks. 

I can't imagine a mother being so selfish to willfully harm her own kids like that just to spite someone. It's unnatural.


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## Openminded

Sadly, it happens a lot. My grandchildren’s other parent tried that for years. Now they’re young adults and they see through the manipulation but it was a difficult time for quite awhile with one of them. Seeing through the manipulation took a lot longer for that one than it did for the others. Fortunately, they all came through it but it took a lot more patience than any of us really had to deal with it. For a few years we had to completely let go of the one who bought most into the manipulation. Things turned around eventually but not as soon as we hoped. I wish him the best. I know how tough that is.


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## Lostinthelight

Openminded said:


> Sadly, it happens a lot. My grandchildren’s other parent tried that for years. Now they’re young adults and they see through the manipulation but it was a difficult time for quite awhile with one of them. Seeing through the manipulation took a lot longer for that one than it did for the others. Fortunately, they all came through it but it took a lot more patience than any of us really had to deal with it. For a few years we had to completely let go of the one who bought most into the manipulation. Things turned around eventually but not as soon as we hoped. I wish him the best. I know how tough that is.


I agree with you. I have given my daughter the time to grow and mature and I pray she comes back. My children were angry at me for years, and would just parrot what their father was saying. Once, they were older, all I could do was stop fighting and let them know that I'll be here, always.


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## TXTrini

Openminded said:


> Sadly, it happens a lot. My grandchildren’s other parent tried that for years. Now they’re young adults and they see through the manipulation but it was a difficult time for quite awhile with one of them. Seeing through the manipulation took a lot longer for that one than it did for the others. Fortunately, they all came through it but it took a lot more patience than any of us really had to deal with it. For a few years we had to completely let go of the one who bought most into the manipulation. Things turned around eventually but not as soon as we hoped. I wish him the best. I know how tough that is.


I did tell him, they might take a long time before they came around. Maybe not until they have relationships and or children of their own. He's doing ok, but he'll tear up with any father/kid moments on TV and get really quiet. He truly does not deserve this, he made all kinds of sacrifices for his children. 

The ****ty thing is, his divorce was bc she cheated and married the OM within a few months of their divorce being final. They're not stupid, you'd think it would be super obvious who's responsible for splitting the family.


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## Openminded

TXTrini said:


> I did tell him, they might take a long time before they came around. Maybe not until they have relationships and or children of their own. He's doing ok, but he'll tear up with any father/kid moments on TV and get really quiet. He truly does not deserve this, he made all kinds of sacrifices for his children.
> 
> The ****ty thing is, his divorce was bc she cheated and married the OM within a few months of their divorce being final. They're not stupid, you'd think it would be super obvious who's responsible for splitting the family.


My experience is that children often tend to side with the weak, incompetent, user parent. Maybe they feel sorry for them because they’re such losers. I really didn’t think one of ours was going to ever wake up — and we had to be extremely patient for years — but it finally happened. It was very difficult for all of us during that time so I get it. Hopefully, it will be sorted satisfactorily for your boyfriend soon.


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## Lostinthelight

TXTrini said:


> I did tell him, they might take a long time before they came around. Maybe not until they have relationships and or children of their own. He's doing ok, but he'll tear up with any father/kid moments on TV and get really quiet. He truly does not deserve this, he made all kinds of sacrifices for his children.
> 
> The ****ty thing is, his divorce was bc she cheated and married the OM within a few months of their divorce being final. They're not stupid, you'd think it would be super obvious who's responsible for splitting the family.


It’s not who split the family, it’s the brainwashing that she’s done. She’s aligned them with her with “he did this to me and you, he’s selfish, etc”. It’s very hard for kids even when they pass the age of 18 to realize what has happened, that they’ve been lied to and the hardest part is they can’t let go of the alienating parent.


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## TXTrini

Openminded said:


> My experience is that children often tend to side with the weak, incompetent, user parent. Maybe they feel sorry for them because they’re such losers. I really didn’t think one of ours was going to ever wake up — and we had to be extremely patient for years — but it finally happened. It was very difficult for all of us during that time so I get it. Hopefully, it will be sorted satisfactorily for your boyfriend soon.


Well if they're not careful, they'll end up being worse than their "loser" parent. I sure hope it does, but I don't see it happening anytime soon. I was truly shocked when his son changed that quickly, they were inseparable. 



Lostinthelight said:


> It’s not who split the family, it’s the brainwashing that she’s done. She’s aligned them with her with “he did this to me and you, he’s selfish, etc”. It’s very hard for kids even when they pass the age of 18 to realize what has happened, that they’ve been lied to and the hardest part is they can’t let go of the alienating parent.


It's not like he could have prevented her from cheating , divorcing and then marrying the OM. I expect better from young adults , are kids getting dumber, or something?


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## Lostinthelight

TXTrini said:


> Well if they're not careful, they'll end up being worse than their "loser" parent. I sure hope it does, but I don't see it happening anytime soon. I was truly shocked when his son changed that quickly, they were inseparable.
> 
> 
> It's not like he could have prevented her from cheating , divorcing and then marrying the OM. I expect better from young adults , are kids getting dumber, or something?


Some kids see through the alienator’s ways, most don’t. They get caught up in all of the lies, and then they start behaving in the same narcissistic behavior. These traits are common among alienated kids. My kids lashed out at me, made accusations, beat me and the list goes on, all the while defending their father. At one point, telling me that he was always sick and asking why I never got sick.


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## ConanHub

TXTrini said:


> So it's just wait and see now. That sucks.
> 
> I can't imagine a mother being so selfish to willfully harm her own kids like that just to spite someone. It's unnatural.


It is all too frequent.


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## Lostinthelight

ConanHub said:


> It is all too frequent.


Yes it is


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## Dictum Veritas

DownByTheRiver said:


> There must have been a good reason for him to lose custody at the time. If there wasn't then he just didn't try very hard to keep it.


Yes, custody laws skewed to favor women. An old army buddy of mine killed himself because the courts took custody away from him simply because they think people without dangly bits should be the primary caregiver. War couldn't kill him, but societal biased against men succeeded.

My cousin's husband's brother get's to see his daughter once every 2 weeks because his ex-wife was a lesbian who conspired with her lover to get a baby by deceiving a man, yet the courts gave her primary custody. I guess her plan worked even going as far as to marry a man under false pretences.


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