# 6 Common Traits of Narcissists & Gaslighters



## DownByTheRiver

6 Common Traits of Narcissists and Gaslighters


How narcissists and gaslighters emotionally manipulate and exploit victims.




www.psychologytoday.com


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## frenchpaddy

Narcissist is the new word that is used to describe all most every ex 
it has become an over used term 

The manipulation in a relationship often goes unnoticed and the person does not know about the manipulation for a long time after they get away from the person doing the manipulation


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## theloveofmylife

Many things are exaggerated and overused, but it doesn't mean there is no truth to this. The combination of the two is bad news. It would be nice if they offered some ways to deal with such traits as well as describing the traits, IMO.


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## DownByTheRiver

There is no magic wand to dealing with narcissists but there is quite a bit of material out there how to deal with them. 

Here is one.








How to Deal With a Narcissist’s Sense of Entitlement


If you can't change them, change how they deal with you.




www.psychologytoday.com


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## DownByTheRiver

Here's another. At least it's easy to spot grandiose people, even online, and this one emphasizes that as part of dealing with the narcissist.








8 Ways to Handle a Narcissist


How to keep your own emotions in check when dealing with difficult people.




www.psychologytoday.com


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## UpsideDownWorld11

If I had a dime for every woman who called their ex a narcissist, I'd be vacationing in Hawaii right now.


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## DownByTheRiver

Honestly, when it's optional and not someone you're having to work with, it's better to just get out of the lives of gas lighters and narcissists.


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## TexasMom1216

DownByTheRiver said:


> Honestly, when it's optional and not someone you're having to work with, it's better to just get out of the lives of gas lighters and narcissists.


Agreed. When your needs don't matter at all, simpler to detach and leave. It will NOT get better.


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## DownByTheRiver

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> If I had a dime for every woman who called their ex a narcissist, I'd be vacationing in Hawaii right now.


There are a lot of them out there, but I agree the term is used loosely these days. Still, they are some pretty recognizable traits and the narcissistic component exists on a scale between high and low in all of us.


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## DownByTheRiver

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> If I had a dime for every woman who called their ex a narcissist, I'd be vacationing in Hawaii right now.











Men tend to be more narcissistic than women, study finds


With three decades of data from more than 475,000 participants, a new study on narcissism reveals that men, on average, are more narcissistic than women.



www.sciencedaily.com


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## TexasMom1216

DownByTheRiver said:


> Men tend to be more narcissistic than women, study finds
> 
> 
> With three decades of data from more than 475,000 participants, a new study on narcissism reveals that men, on average, are more narcissistic than women.
> 
> 
> 
> www.sciencedaily.com


 There are whole libraries of self-help books for men encouraging them to embrace narcissism.


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## DownByTheRiver

This is a five-part series so I'm sure if you visit the podcast you can find the other two episodes.









Phil in the Blanks - Malignant + Communal Narcissists: Toxic Personalities in the Real World (Part 4)


“If you ever start defending yourself with a narcissist, you will never ever stop,” says Dr. Phil in part 4 of the "Toxic Personalities in the Real World”. “They simply can't be confronted. That's why you can't win an argument with them. They are relentless. They will argue until the end of the...




podcasts.google.com













Phil in the Blanks - Malignant Narcissist: Toxic Personalities in the Real World (Part 3)


In part three of the "Toxic Personalities in the Real World” Phil in the Blanks podcast series, Dr. Phil examines the traits of a malignant narcissist. “In my opinion, this is the most dangerous narcissist of all!” Dr. Phil says. “These are people that are cold, calculating -- but they can be...




podcasts.google.com













Phil in the Blanks - Narcissistic Personality Disorder: Toxic Personalities in the Real World (Part 1)


Are you living with a Narcissist? Find out all about Narcissistic Personality Disorder on Dr. Phil’s new mental health podcast series, “Phil in the Blanks: Toxic Personalities in the Real World.” Listeners will learn about Narcissistic Personality Disorder; how to recognize it, establish...




podcasts.google.com


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## DownByTheRiver

TexasMom1216 said:


> There are whole libraries of self-help books for men encouraging them to embrace narcissism.


And internet forums.


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## farsidejunky

TexasMom1216 said:


> There are whole libraries of self-help books for men encouraging them to embrace narcissism.





DownByTheRiver said:


> And internet forums.


I'm curious on this. Are they overtly advocating for narcissism, or is it traits that are considered narcissistic?

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## DownByTheRiver

farsidejunky said:


> I'm curious on this. Are they overtly advocating for narcissism, or is it traits that are considered narcissistic?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


No. For one thing narcissists never think they're narcissistic unless they've been diagnosed officially as such and even then may not even accept that.

Internet is the perfect forum for narcissists, whether it's a talk forum or Instagram. Media in general has always promoted entitlement. Entitlement is one of the facets of narcissism. The internet is certainly a great showcase for grandiosity, another element that is often present in narcissists but not always. And grandiosity rarely exists outside of narcissism.


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## theloveofmylife

"Social" media creates/escalates narcissism too. 

There are some narcissistic traits that are considered productive as well, since many leaders exhibit such traits.



DownByTheRiver said:


> For one thing narcissists never think they're narcissistic unless they've been diagnosed officially as such and even then may not even accept that.


It depends. Some are actually proud of it, as if to say "of course I am, since I'm better than everyone else."


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## UpsideDownWorld11

farsidejunky said:


> I'm curious on this. Are they overtly advocating for narcissism, or is it traits that are considered narcissistic?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


I think the same traits are considered Alpha which red pill sites advocate in order to attract and bed lots of women. It seems to have pretty good success rates until they dump their ass for being a narcissist lol.


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## DownByTheRiver

theloveofmylife said:


> "Social" media creates/escalates narcissism too.
> 
> There are some narcissistic traits that are considered productive as well, since many leaders exhibit such traits.
> 
> 
> 
> It depends. Some are actually proud of it, as if to say "of course I am, since I'm better than everyone else."


Yes. That's the grandiose part. There are some professions that practically require narcissism, like entertainment, where promotion and self-promotion and at least acting confident are a must. There are a certain amount of people who believe those who say how great they are, too. But according to some of these articles, it is insecurity underlying a lot of it.

There are so many faces of it. In my personal life a couple of people that I know, you see it in their paranoia. One thinks the whole world is out to get him so he is pretty much a recluse, but that doesn't stop him from thinking he's smarter than everyone else, like just about every inmate in prison.

The other is also a recluse with a completely raging temper when things aren't going her way. She has the classic can never admit she's wrong but she also does the narcissist thing of trying to make it up to you some way even though she won't admit she's wrong and that's as close as you're going to get to a narcissist admitting they're wrong.

I have an ex friend who is also a diagnosed narcissist but she is also bipolar, so it's a pretty bad combination although she makes an effort to be entertaining and fun. But she just doesn't have any scruples.

Then a friend of mine's mother is diagnosed narcissistic, and she is a kind of new age philosophy woman who has done so much work on herself that you have to give her credit. Because she is mostly just really nice.


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## DownByTheRiver

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I think the same traits are considered Alpha which red pill sites advocate in order to bed lots of women. It seems to have pretty good success rates until they dump your ass for being a narcissist lol.


You know growing up I just was very focused on animal behavior, and of course it will vary between species but one thing that stands out is that alpha animals are generally not the big tough aggressors. Certainly every alpha cat I've known was the most laid-back cat in the house. The best example I can think of was this big black Manx. Super sweet cat. Very lazy and laid back.

When its owner got a kitten, of course the kitten was insufferable and had already gotten the other cats in the house to growling and hissing at it before it started in on the alpha. It attacked and tormented the alpha relentlessly. The alpha just laid there patiently. After it had gone on a long time and the kitten reared up right in the alpha's face, the alpha put one big paw right on top of it and just held it down for a minute. And that was that.

I think real alpha humans aren't the grandiose braggarts who suck the air out of a room. They are the quietly competent ones. They have no reason to have to pump themselves up by bragging. And they're not narcissists.


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## minimalME

There's a world of difference between a man who's a true alpha (a confident leader who's grounded in virtue) verses a sadistic person who enjoys hurting others.

My dad is the latter. The world gets his public persona (successful businessman, benefactor), while those of us who privately interact with him get someone quite different.


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## DownByTheRiver

minimalME said:


> There's a world of difference between a man who's a true alpha (a confident leader who's grounded in virtue) verses a sadistic person who enjoys hurting others.
> 
> My dad is the latter. The world gets his public persona (successful businessman, benefactor), while those of us who privately interact with him get someone quite different.


So sorry. It's bad when you'd be better off as a business associate than his child.


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## minimalME

DownByTheRiver said:


> So sorry. It's bad when you'd be better off as a business associate than his child.


Thank you. It's better now. I stood up to both my parents, and they both cast me off. Textbook behavior, really.

I am a little paranoid about his vindictiveness, but if all he does is disinherit me, that'll be fine. 🙂


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## DownByTheRiver

DownByTheRiver said:


> So sorry. It's bad when you'd be better off as a business associate than his child.


You know, the psychological traits, we all fall on the scale of them high, low, or in between. It's the extremes that make a person unpalatable or dysfunctional. 

If you ever want to test yourself, the book "Better Than Normal" by Dr. Dale Archer has a test so you can see where you are on the 8 psychological traits and explains how the combination of these traits can be good or bad or inbetween, just like the traits themselves. That was his first book, I think. He has since seemed to be specializing in ADHD. He was a contributing author on Psychology Today. Many years ago, he had his own advice blog which was very interesting.


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## DownByTheRiver

minimalME said:


> Thank you. It's better now. I stood up to both my parents, and they both cast me off. Textbook behavior, really.
> 
> I am a little paranoid about his vindictiveness, but if all he does is disinherit me, that'll be fine. 🙂


That's so sad. A person is truly defective if they can't bend enough to at least keep communications open with their children.


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## minimalME

DownByTheRiver said:


> You know, the psychological traits, we all fall on the scale of them high, low, or in between. It's the extremes that make a person unpalatable or dysfunctional.
> 
> If you ever want to test yourself, the book "Better Than Normal" by Dr. Dale Archer has a test so you can see where you are on the 8 psychological traits and explains how the combination of these traits can be good or bad or inbetween, just like the traits themselves. That was his first book, I think. He has since seemed to be specializing in ADHD. He was a contributing author on Psychology Today. Many years ago, he had his own advice blog which was very interesting.


Thank you. I see myself in most dysfunction. Whenever I read a list of 'if you do this, then you're this', I see me. 😅 

My rage from being raised under them is what I most focus on. Being alone has actually helped a lot.


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## DownByTheRiver

minimalME said:


> Thank you. I see myself in most dysfunction. Whenever I read a list of 'if you do this, then you're this', I see me. 😅
> 
> My rage from being raised under them is what I most focus on. Being alone has actually helped a lot.


Yes. You had to free yourself from that toxic influence. Yours is an extreme example, but it's one reason why I think every young person needs to be on their own instead of living with someone and under someone else's influence for a couple of years to get grounded and shed some of that stuff most people acquire growing up that is really someone else's problem.


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## PieceOfSky

Lots of info on traits, and how to deal with them: Out of the FOG


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## DownByTheRiver

PieceOfSky said:


> Lots of info on traits, and how to deal with them: Out of the FOG


Great resource! Thank you.


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## TexasMom1216

DownByTheRiver said:


> Yes. You had to free yourself from that toxic influence. Yours is an extreme example, but it's one reason why I think *every young person needs to be on their own instead of living with someone and under someone else's influence* for a couple of years to get grounded and shed some of that stuff most people acquire growing up that is really someone else's problem.


This all day long. Especially young women, they need to know they can survive without a man or they'll be stuck with some bully who forces them to be a housekeeper and plan B for sex, trapped in a loveless marriage with a man who is using them because they can't be alone. The FIRST thing abusers do is tell the victim they want to "take care" of them, and the second thing they do is say "don't question me." Narcissists do NOT believe there is anything wrong with using and abusing other people.


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## DownByTheRiver

TexasMom1216 said:


> This all day long. Especially young women, they need to know they can survive without a man or they'll be stuck with some bully who forces them to be a housekeeper and plan B for sex, trapped in a loveless marriage with a man who is using them because they can't be alone. The FIRST thing abusers do is tell the victim they want to "take care" of them, and the second thing they do is say "don't question me." Narcissists do NOT believe there is anything wrong with using and abusing other people.


That's right. You know, but it's also true for young men nowadays because they're staying under their parents' wing for far too long. They're not going to grow up and have a chance at being equitable until they've done things for themselves as well and understand what all goes into that. Everyone should be self-reliant for a couple years early on. It's educational and character building.


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## Ursula

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> If I had a dime for every woman who called their ex a narcissist, I'd be vacationing in Hawaii right now.


My XH described himself as being a narcissitic @$$hole! My reply was, "you're not an @$$hole" 😁


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## DownByTheRiver

Ursula said:


> My XH described himself as being a narcissitic @$$hole! My reply was, "you're not an @$$hole" 😁


You were taking quite a chance there!


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## Annonymous Joe

3


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## Ursula

DownByTheRiver said:


> You were taking quite a chance there!


In all honesty, he probably isn't a narcissist, although he certainly shows some traits. He wasn't a kind man, and thought himself better than everyone else, but was more or less harmless. Took me awhile to figure out how he operated though, but once that happened, the puzzle pieces of why I felt like such an idiot fell into place! He was probably more of a gaslighter.


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## DownByTheRiver

Ursula said:


> In all honesty, he probably isn't a narcissist, although he certainly shows some traits. He wasn't a kind man, and thought himself better than everyone else, but was more or less harmless. Took me awhile to figure out how he operated though, but once that happened, the puzzle pieces of why I felt like such an idiot fell into place! He was probably more of a gaslighter.


Just glad you figuring it out. That article says gaslighters are always about control.


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## Ursula

DownByTheRiver said:


> Just glad you figuring it out. That article says gaslighters are always about control.


Been divorced since September 2018, and couldn't be happier! And yes, he was super controlling. I had to ask permission to have a bath instead of a shower. 🤷‍♀️


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## DudeInProgress

frenchpaddy said:


> Narcissist is the new word that is used to describe all most every ex
> it has become an over used term


Thank you Paddy, I have thought about posting something on this before but never bothered to do it. 
I’ve often wondered if I’m the only one noticing what seems to be a recent surge of posts (mostly from women) about their “narcissist husband”, “covert narcissist” ex (whatever that means). 
Suddenly every out-of-favor husband is a narcissist who needs to be escaped from.

Ladies (and probably a man or two out there), please stop diagnosing / labeling your spouse, or ex, or random jerks you may come in contact with - as narcissists. The frequency of it is annoying, and rarely even relevant to the issues / actions at hand.


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## DownByTheRiver

Ursula said:


> Been divorced since September 2018, and couldn't be happier! And yes, he was super controlling. I had to ask permission to have a bath instead of a shower. 🤷‍♀️


Oh, that is so sick!


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## TexasMom1216

Ursula said:


> Been divorced since September 2018, and couldn't be happier! And yes, he was super controlling. I had to ask permission to have a bath instead of a shower. 🤷‍♀️


It’s insane how many people don’t see that as a problem.


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## DownByTheRiver

TexasMom1216 said:


> It’s insane how many people don’t see that as a problem.


There's this thing especially with women that they feel foolish pushing back on minor things. So you give them an inch and they take a mile just like this article said. And especially a gas lighter will try to shame you for making a big deal out of something relatively minor. 

But boundaries are important to keep and not bend. That's how you make yourself vulnerable.


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## DudeInProgress

TexasMom1216 said:


> It’s insane how many people don’t see that as a problem.


No, I think most people (even the vast majority of those mean, misogynistic men of TAM) would find that unreasonable and problematic. Texas isn’t Saudi my friend.


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## heartsbeating

Ursula said:


> I had to ask permission to have a bath instead of a shower. 🤷‍♀️


WHAH?!!!


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## DownByTheRiver

heartsbeating said:


> WHAH?!!!


Isn't that psychopathic?


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## heartsbeating

DownByTheRiver said:


> Isn't that psychopathic?


How does that even play out? 

My mind boggles, and really glad that @Ursula exited the dysfunction.


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## Luckylucky

DudeInProgress said:


> Thank you Paddy, I have thought about posting something on this before but never bothered to do it.
> I’ve often wondered if I’m the only one noticing what seems to be a recent surge of posts (mostly from women) about their “narcissist husband”, “covert narcissist” ex (whatever that means).
> Suddenly every out-of-favor husband is a narcissist who needs to be escaped from.
> 
> Ladies (and probably a man or two out there), please stop diagnosing / labeling your spouse, or ex, or random jerks you may come in contact with - as narcissists. The frequency of it is annoying, and rarely even relevant to the issues / actions at hand.


Just as common as ex-wives being labelled crazy, unhignged, mentally unwell, and of course, suffering from Borderline Personality Disorder.

But all these things are under-diagnosed. Always concerning, are the deniers and the ones who aren’t in therapy and have sailed through having never seen a psychologist. ‘There’s nothing wrong with me, I don’t need help’.

Kudos to the ones that stop, reflect, and even continue seeing a therapist who points out there flaws without necessarily placing blame. It’s always a good thing to hear where you could be the problem? And keep working with that despite disagreeing?


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## theloveofmylife

DudeInProgress said:


> Ladies (and probably a man or two out there), please stop diagnosing / labeling your spouse, or ex, or random jerks you may come in contact with - as narcissists. The frequency of it is annoying, and rarely even relevant to the issues / actions at hand.


Such things are always overblown. Every "problem" child is labeled ADD / ADHD etc. Many men, not one or two, label their wives narcissistic as well as bipolar etc.

As I said before, that doesn't mean that it never happens either. I think it really depends on motive.

I agree that we should never diagnose anyone, but being aware of certain traits and finding out how to better manage a relationship with someone who exhibits those traits isn't a bad thing.


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## minimalME

theloveofmylife said:


> Such things are always overblown.


Or completely ignored.

My experience has been that people don't want to know about abusive situations - especially family members. They don't particularly care, unless it has a direct impact on them.

The Bill Cosbys, the Jeffrey Epsteins, the Harvey Weinsteins? These men had people around them who knew what they were doing to others. Some even helped.

That people ignore what's right in front of them is no longer a surprise to me.


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## DownByTheRiver

theloveofmylife said:


> Such things are always overblown. Every "problem" child is labeled ADD / ADHD etc. Many men, not one or two, label their wives narcissistic as well as bipolar etc.
> 
> As I said before, that doesn't mean that it never happens either. I think it really depends on motive.
> 
> I agree that we should never diagnose anyone, but being aware of certain traits and finding out how to better manage a relationship with someone who exhibits those traits isn't a bad thing.


I think it's a good idea to have a working understanding of it while still realizing you're not a professional because the most mentally ill people and the most narcissistic people will be very resistant to going to therapy because they cannot have anything wrong with them in their mind.

Narcissism is a trait that everyone scores somewhere on a scale for so it's not at all out of line when you see some narcissistic traits in people to say they have narcissistic traits.

It's a fact that means behaviors are a bad thing that you should get away from once you identify them. That's really all anyone needs to know. They don't have to say it's narcissistic if they don't want to but the fact remains someone with these behaviors is someone you should get away from. And there are a lot of people with these destructive behaviors.


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## The IT Guy

TexasMom1216 said:


> Narcissists do NOT believe there is anything wrong with using and abusing other people.


True. But have you ever noticed how pissy and deflective of anything and everything they are when you call them out on their shyte? Their ego won't allow them to handle it let alone process it.


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## TexasMom1216

The IT Guy said:


> True. But have you ever noticed how pissy and deflective of anything and everything they are when you call them out on their shyte? Their ego won't allow them to handle it let alone process it.


Nothing they do is ever wrong. They become really mean when you imply there is anything they need to change about themselves. So yeah. Not exactly open to criticism, even constructive criticism.


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## The IT Guy

TexasMom1216 said:


> Nothing they do is ever wrong. They become really mean when you imply there is anything they need to change about themselves. So yeah. Not exactly open to criticism, even constructive criticism.


Yep. I'm dealing with one now at work who feels he's absolutely NEVER wrong and on top of that, possibly another that I can't even stand being around.


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## TexasMom1216

The IT Guy said:


> Yep. I'm dealing with one now at work who feels he's absolutely NEVER wrong and on top of that, possibly another that I can't even stand being around.


Omg all the time at work. I’m dealing with designers and developers, so I’m getting a LOT of ego. 😉


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## The IT Guy

TexasMom1216 said:


> Omg all the time at work. I’m dealing with designers and developers, so I’m getting a LOT of ego. 😉


And nothing worse when they're also a hypocrite. Absolute worst combination.


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## DownByTheRiver

The IT Guy said:


> True. But have you ever noticed how pissy and deflective of anything and everything they are when you call them out on their shyte? Their ego won't allow them to handle it let alone process it.


Absolutely true. They will NEVER admit fault. I deal with it in my family. Flies into a violent rage with the least criticism, such as "Please close the door behind you so the dog doesn't get out." She's let the dogs out more than once by simply refusing to pull the door closed behind her. I think it's subconsciously on purpose. That is enough to make her fly into a spitting screaming rage. Because how dare you insinuate they did anything the least bit careless or wrong. 

She volunteered to feed my cat I used to have one weekend, just once, because that's all it needed. I told her I would send email reminders, and she went into a rage about that notion. So I didn't send the reminder -- and she never came over to feed the cat at all. When I mentioned it, she just blew me off, "Oh, well, I got busy and forgot." 

I mean, I have no choice but to deal as she is close family, but so many people ask us sisters why we don't live together....if they only knew.


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## DownByTheRiver

The IT Guy said:


> Yep. I'm dealing with one now at work who feels he's absolutely NEVER wrong and on top of that, possibly another that I can't even stand being around.


I hate that for you.


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## minimalME

DownByTheRiver said:


> I deal with it in my family.


Is this your reclusive sister?

If so, is this a generational issue in your family? Did your parents behave this way?


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## The IT Guy

DownByTheRiver said:


> Absolutely true. They will NEVER admit fault. I deal with it in my family. Flies into a violent rage with the least criticism, such as "Please close the door behind you so the dog doesn't get out." She's let the dogs out more than once by simply refusing to pull the door closed behind her. I think it's subconsciously on purpose. That is enough to make her fly into a spitting screaming rage. Because how dare you insinuate they did anything the least bit careless or wrong.
> 
> She volunteered to feed my cat I used to have one weekend, just once, because that's all it needed. I told her I would send email reminders, and she went into a rage about that notion. So I didn't send the reminder -- and she never came over to feed the cat at all. When I mentioned it, she just blew me off, "Oh, well, I got busy and forgot."
> 
> I mean, I have no choice but to deal as she is close family, but so many people ask us sisters why we don't live together....if they only knew.


This may sound harsh to some, but I'd almost want to conclude my business with them. I'm just too old for some of this TBH. I can't escape it, obviously, but I can also control the amount of crap I've got to put up with. This past year, I've brought it to an almost screeching halt but NONE of us needs this in our lives. I'm going to shut up because I'm thinking out loud now.


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## DownByTheRiver

"What percentage of the population is a malignant narcissist?


Depending on how severe their disorder is, they may react badly when a person or event challenges their sense of superiority. An older 2008 study in the Journal of Clinical Psychiatry estimates that *6.2%* of people experience NPD at some point in their lives. Rates are higher among males (7.7%) than females (4.8%). Feb 7, 2022"

That's pretty high. Out of every 100 people you encounter, 6% are malignant narcissists you want to avoid getting involved with. And I'm guessing most of those are on dating sites! 😀


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## DownByTheRiver

The IT Guy said:


> This may sound harsh to some, but I'd almost want to conclude my business with them. I'm just too old for some of this TBH. I can't escape it, obviously, but I can also control the amount of crap I've got to put up with. This past year, I've brought it to an almost screeching halt but NONE of us needs this in our lives. I'm going to shut up because I'm thinking out loud now.


I understand. I did cut my sister off for close to a year. She's just older than me so I feel I have to stay in touch. But yeah, if you have an option, get them OUT of your life, gaslighters too. They're horrible people.

And narcissism isn't like something you're born with. It's likely influenced by their parents' behavior raising them, but they are also perfectly capable of just deciding that's the route they want to take to get what they want. Maybe some don't have the skills to do it any other way except a screaming demanding tantrum method. I don't know.


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## The IT Guy

DownByTheRiver said:


> But yeah, if you have an option, get them OUT of your life, gaslighters too. They're horrible people.


Some peeps think that gaslighting someone is 'fun' as a joke. People can say, do or think whatever they want about that, but IDGAF. It isn't funny when it's damaging.


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## farsidejunky

Ursula said:


> Been divorced since September 2018, and couldn't be happier! And yes, he was super controlling. I had to ask permission to have a bath instead of a shower.


WTAF?

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## DownByTheRiver

My sister's dynamic was alive as far back into childhood as I can remember. I was supposed to share a room with her but she was so mean, I usually slept with my mom instead. That's pretty telling right there. She was a premie and had an awful time as a baby, requiring a lot of attention and always crabby, so that even may have had some effect. My mother was still trying to get her approval to the day she died, and would throw me under the bus regularly my whole life to get it, do it just to make her happy. I guess it was one of the only things she could do to get my sister's approval. I was their punching bag. Thank goodness I was always mobile and could get out of the house and go outside or off on a horse or scooter.


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## DownByTheRiver

The IT Guy said:


> Some peeps think that gaslighting someone is 'fun' as a joke. People can say, do or think whatever they want about that, but IDGAF. It isn't funny when it's damaging.


Yeah. It's just mean and manipulative and a deflection of blame.


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## DownByTheRiver

I will give my sister credit for one thing, though. She is 77 and still working full-time from home -- out of necessity, which she wouldn't have to be doing if she'd made better choices, but she's doing it for as long as she's able.


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## TexasMom1216

The IT Guy said:


> Some peeps think that gaslighting someone is 'fun' as a joke. People can say, do or think whatever they want about that, but IDGAF. It isn't funny when it's damaging.


I could go down a loooong rabbit hole about this from a professional standpoint. I am convinced that most people in middle management are sociopaths.


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## DownByTheRiver

minimalME said:


> Is this your reclusive sister?
> 
> If so, is this a generational issue in your family? Did your parents behave this way?


No. They had issues, but I think my mother made my sister that way, probably. And my sister wasn't reclusive when young at all. She got that way as she got older. I think it took her that long to learn that the general public wouldn't tolerate her irate behavior. So since they won't, she just hates them all and tries to avoid.


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## The IT Guy

TexasMom1216 said:


> I could go down a loooong rabbit hole about this from a professional standpoint. I am convinced that most people in middle management are sociopaths.


Most are otherwise they wouldn't have made it that far. It's unfortunate.


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## TexasMom1216

The IT Guy said:


> Most are otherwise they wouldn't have made it that far. It's unfortunate.


Or they would have kept moving up. Once you get above those Lumburgh types, the people are normal again.


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## The IT Guy

TexasMom1216 said:


> Or they would have kept moving up. Once you get above those Lumburgh types, the people are normal again.


Yep.


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## The IT Guy

Random thought - do you think that narcs and gas lighters actually care about the people they're abusive towards? Or no?


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## TexasMom1216

The IT Guy said:


> Random thought - do you think that narcs and gas lighters actually care about the people they're abusive towards? Or no?


Nope. I don't think they care about anyone on earth but themselves.


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## theloveofmylife

The IT Guy said:


> Random thought - do you think that narcs and gas lighters actually care about the people they're abusive towards? Or no?


Full blown cases? esp the combo of both narc and gs? No. 

People who just have some of the traits, yes.


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## The IT Guy

TexasMom1216 said:


> Nope. I don't think they care about anyone on earth but themselves.





theloveofmylife said:


> Full blown cases? esp the combo of both narc and gs? No.
> 
> People who just have some of the traits, yes.


That's the conclusion I've come to. I was just curious about what others felt.


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## Luckylucky

The IT Guy said:


> Random thought - do you think that narcs and gas lighters actually care about the people they're abusive towards? Or no?


No. But I do think they can panic when they push too far. And show signs of caring so that they don’t lose their source of income, cleaning person, slave etc.

A common trait that is rarely mentioned, seems to be that they have to have their needs met, can’t give for very long, and simply cannot understand any different. Can’t hear no, and can’t seem to care or give others what they need etc.

Think back to a small child, those of you who have kids will know what I’m talking about. The child just doesn’t understand no, and that they just have have what they want. The child is not going to understand when mum or dad has influenza, and can’t get up and play with them. The child might say, ‘oooh mummy I feel sad that you’re sick’… for about 5 minutes. Then the child will be very angry at the parent! The child can’t understand why you can’t buy a barbie doll every time you go out for milk and bread and will let you know about it - they’ll pull every stunt in their book! The child WILL draw on your walls and lie about it and be mad at YOU for wanting the truth, explaining, punishing etc. All of this is very normal, we are here to serve our children and not expect a lot of empathy until their brains develop beyond this. I can remember some epic behaviours and battles with my 3 little ones. And I didn’t really expect a lot of empathy or understanding or medals from them 😍

But some adults don’t grow out of this and just don’t develop these skills. Much like that poster describes her sister. Yes many of them end up very alone!!! (She can call it reclusive all she likes, but as you said correctly, there’s more truth in the fact that nobody is going to pander to that for too long).

Think about an adult you’re married to, or were married to, who will bring you a cup of tea after your surgery, your paracetamol when your fever is 40 and you can’t move. And then 5 hours later THEY are mad at you, angrily looking at their watch and yelling, “There’s nothing to eat around here! How long do you think you’re going to lie there for!” The stroppy adult who clearly IS in a mood, but makes you jump hoops to find out why. The one that gets caught spending excessively and flies into a rage when you say “Hey… you cut my spending and I’m wearing last year’s clothes, but you’ve done it again!” Hmmm, how dare you play fair.

It’s really much more common than you think, and I always take note when I hear a man or woman say that narcissism is a new flash word. Maybe it is… but what is it about that that triggers you???


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## DownByTheRiver

Luckylucky said:


> No. But I do think they can panic when they push too far. And show signs of caring so that they don’t lose their source of income, cleaning person, slave etc.
> 
> A common trait that is rarely mentioned, seems to be that they have to have their needs met, can’t give for very long, and simply cannot understand any different. Can’t hear no, and can’t seem to care or give others what they need etc.
> 
> Think back to a small child, those of you who have kids will know what I’m talking about. The child just doesn’t understand no, and that they just have have what they want. The child is not going to understand when mum or dad has influenza, and can’t get up and play with them. The child might say, ‘oooh mummy I feel sad that you’re sick’… for about 5 minutes. Then the child will be very angry at the parent! The child can’t understand why you can’t buy a barbie doll every time you go out for milk and bread and will let you know about it - they’ll pull every stunt in their book! The child WILL draw on your walls and lie about it and be mad at YOU for wanting the truth, explaining, punishing etc. All of this is very normal, we are here to serve our children and not expect a lot of empathy until their brains develop beyond this. I can remember some epic behaviours and battles with my 3 little ones. And I didn’t really expect a lot of empathy or understanding or medals from them 😍
> 
> But some adults don’t grow out of this and just don’t develop these skills. Much like that poster describes her sister. Yes many of them end up very alone!!! (She can call it reclusive all she likes, but as you said correctly, there’s more truth in the fact that nobody is going to pander to that for too long).
> 
> Think about an adult you’re married to, or were married to, who will bring you a cup of tea after your surgery, your paracetamol when your fever is 40 and you can’t move. And then 5 hours later THEY are mad at you, angrily looking at their watch and yelling, “There’s nothing to eat around here! How long do you think you’re going to lie there for!” The stroppy adult who clearly IS in a mood, but makes you jump hoops to find out why. The one that gets caught spending excessively and flies into a rage when you say “Hey… you cut my spending and I’m wearing last year’s clothes, but you’ve done it again!” Hmmm, how dare you play fair.
> 
> It’s really much more common than you think, and I always take note when I hear a man or woman say that narcissism is a new flash word. Maybe it is… but what is it about that that triggers you???


They just care what you can do for them, but yes that can include if they find you amusing or entertaining or they find you to be someone they can go do things with which my sister and I used to be able to do like go to rivers or wildlife parks. 

What you said about their sustainability above, I've seen a good example of that. 

That bipolar woman that used to be a friend who was diagnosed narcissistic seemed empathetic on some levels, as some do. They are the safer ones.

When a friend of hers lost her only teen son in a car wreck, she was quick to go there which was out of town and start offering to help her. 

She was telling me about all this stuff as it was happening. So what the friend of hers asked her to do was sell his car for her because she didn't want to have to deal with that. And at first my friend pitched in and seemed to have every intention but within just a few days she was completely angry that she had been asked to take care of that and in a really bad mood about it. I don't think she ever got it done.


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## Luckylucky

DownByTheRiver said:


> They just care what you can do for them, but yes that can include if they find you amusing or entertaining or they find you to be someone they can go do things with which my sister and I used to be able to do like go to rivers or wildlife parks.
> 
> What you said about their sustainability above, I've seen a good example of that.
> 
> That bipolar woman that used to be a friend who was diagnosed narcissistic seemed empathetic on some levels, as some do. They are the safer ones.
> 
> When a friend of hers lost her only teen son in a car wreck, she was quick to go there which was out of town and start offering to help her.
> 
> She was telling me about all this stuff as it was happening. So what the friend of hers asked her to do was sell his car for her because she didn't want to have to deal with that. And at first my friend pitched in and seemed to have every intention but within just a few days she was completely angry that she had been asked to take care of that and in a really bad mood about it. I don't think she ever got it done.


Yes, this helping thing is common too, but often it’s a vulnerable person. Coming over and feigning support is handy to them, they get off on being thanked and praised. That part is easy. But as you pointed out, when they’re actually ‘asked’ to help they pull out pretty quickly. As always, on their terms.

It’s always good to watch out for the person who likes to take a seat when you’re down and at rock bottom. People say you know who your friends are in the dark times. But the opposite is often true. Sure, they’ll be a shoulder to cry on when your marriage is on the rocks. But are they going to REALLY help you set up house? They might offer you their couch and support… but you’ll be paying rent at some point And doing all the cleaning and cooking. And when you get on your feet, and are doing well, watch for some anger on their part. Maybe your sister liked it when your friend was down, but helping with the car also meant your friend was moving on and up in small steps.


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## Ursula

TexasMom1216 said:


> It’s insane how many people don’t see that as a problem.


Oh, folks who treat others like this are sneaky-sneaky. They hide in plain sight, and gain control gradually so that the people they're controlling are none the wiser, and don't see how bad it is until they look back into their past and realize how much has changed since the beginning. It's unfortunate for both the perpetrators and survivors, the perps probably never find genuine happiness, and the survivors waste valuable years with them.


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## Ursula

heartsbeating said:


> WHAH?!!!


Yeah, he claimed that baths took away too much time from us spending time together, showers were faster. They are, but not nearly as relaxing. Silly thing is that in the end, he never wanted to spend time together. Sillier thing is that he realized the benefits of relaxing in a hot bath, and had one every morning. 😆🤷‍♀️


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## TexasMom1216

Ursula said:


> Oh, folks who treat others like this are sneaky-sneaky. They hide in plain sight, and gain control gradually so that the people they're controlling are none the wiser, and don't see how bad it is until they look back into their past and realize how much has changed since the beginning. It's unfortunate for both the perpetrators and survivors, the perps probably never find genuine happiness, and the survivors waste valuable years with them.


It's something most people (thankfully) will never learn. Abuse doesn't just suddenly happen, and when it gets to the point where it's really bad, it's not like you can just "walk away." It's insidiously methodical, and the abuser frames it as something the victim deserves. "Shouldn't you be grateful I want to spend time with you?" Then the people on the outside are all, "Your husband has a right to demand a certain amount of your time, you're being selfish." No one really understands the psychology of abuse, and those with a predilection toward abuse don't see anything wrong with such controlling behavior and dismiss it as something "normal."


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## Ursula

The IT Guy said:


> Random thought - do you think that narcs and gas lighters actually care about the people they're abusive towards? Or no?


Other than being a supply for their abuse? I'm honestly not sure, depending on the relationship, I would think so to some degree, but the jury is out on how genuine those caring feelings are.


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## DownByTheRiver

Ursula said:


> Other than being a supply for their abuse? I'm honestly not sure, depending on the relationship, I would think so to some degree, but the jury is out on how genuine those caring feelings are.


I don't think their feelings run deep. Some of them are more empathetic than others but the ones who aren't empathetic are not even capable loving someone besides themselves except for what they can do for them or as a possession to make themselves look good.

A narcissist who is lacking empathy is not much different from a sociopath. The only person they feel sorry for is themselves. But some do have some empathy.


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## The IT Guy

TexasMom1216 said:


> It's something most people (thankfully) will never learn. Abuse doesn't just suddenly happen, and when it gets to the point where it's really bad, it's not like you can just "walk away." It's insidiously methodical, and the abuser frames it as something the victim deserves. "Shouldn't you be grateful I want to spend time with you?" Then the people on the outside are all, "Your husband has a right to demand a certain amount of your time, you're being selfish." No one really understands the psychology of abuse, and those with a predilection toward abuse don't see anything wrong with such controlling behavior and dismiss it as something "normal."


And for the life of me, I can't wrap my head around why someone would ever think that abuse in any form is acceptable. It literally makes me SICK.


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## TexasMom1216

The IT Guy said:


> And for the life of me, I can't wrap my head around why someone would ever think that abuse in any form is acceptable. It literally makes me SICK.


Me too. It’s more personal for me but yes, it’s sickening. No one wants absolute and unaccountable control over another person for altruistic reasons. Ever.


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## farsidejunky

The IT Guy said:


> Random thought - do you think that narcs and gas lighters actually care about the people they're abusive towards? Or no?


I think that THEY think they care.

But their definition of 'care' is well outside the acceptable left or right limits. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## The IT Guy

farsidejunky said:


> I think that THEY think they care.
> 
> But their definition of 'care' is well outside the acceptable left or right limits.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


Perhaps, but I'm having a heck of a hard time giving any one single narc the benefit of a doubt. I just can't.


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## farsidejunky

The IT Guy said:


> Perhaps, but I'm having a heck of a hard time giving any one single narc the benefit of a doubt. I just can't.


Nor should you. I wasn't advocating for such at all. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## DownByTheRiver

Here's an excerpt from Forbes on this same topic. But if you want to read it, just google "Gaslighters use the Third Person"

"When a gaslighter/narcissist speaks in the third person, his statement is said as if it is coming from a supporter. When his quote is published in the media, readers scanning the news may see just the quote and assume it is attributable to someone else. This then gives the quote more credibility. It then becomes apocryphal. It is a form of spreading propaganda. 

Gaslighters/narcissists speak with the intention that a lie will be heard so many times that it will become the truth and that their use of the third person gives their quotes more clout.
If gaslighters/narcissists feel that not enough people are praising them (they commonly and unrealistically feel this way), they praise themselves. It can be a form of self-soothing, a reassurance to the gaslighter/narcissist that he is worthy of adoration."


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