# Initiation by LD Partner



## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

@Laurentium said in another thread, "I think trying to get the lower-desire partner to initiate is a mistake." Is it a mistake? If so, what is the solution?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I was going to ask him the same thing. 

I'm not saying he is necessarily wrong but I would like to hear his rationale.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Sfort said:


> @Laurentium said in another thread, "I think trying to get the lower-desire partner to initiate is a mistake." Is it a mistake? If so, what is the solution?


I think it's also useful to define what "initiating" is, because that seems to be very subjective between high drive and low drive couples as well.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> I think it's also useful to define what "initiating" is, because that seems to be very subjective between high drive and low drive couples as well.


What is your definition?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Sfort said:


> If so, what is the solution?


You try everything you can, get very depressed, come to TAM, hear all the experts and your problem magically goes away.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

In Absentia said:


> You try everything you can, get very depressed, come to TAM, hear all the experts and your problem magically goes away.


If that solution has worked for you, raise your hand.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Sfort said:


> If that solution has worked for you, raise your hand.


Let me think...


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

In Absentia said:


> Let me think...


Lol!!! You are being really funny and upbeat lately!!!


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Sfort said:


> What is your definition?


Do you mean my definition of when I initiate...or my definition of when I think my partner is initiating?

See how nebulous it can be...??


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> Let me think...


Cheers... I'm getting over my (no)marriage blues, I think...


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

You said, 



LisaDiane said:


> I think it's also useful to define what "initiating" is


...so I asked what your definition is. If the definition is situational, pick the situation.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I think it is common for the HD partner to want to the LD to initiate periodically and it becomes a common complaint on these forums when the HDs complain that the LDs never initiate. Many people see lack of initiation as a lack of interest or lack of desire for them. Some times that may be true. Some times it may not be. 

I think there is a lot of factors that goes into this. 

I do think telling a LD to initiate is kind of like spitting in the wind a lot of times. Often times that is just putting more pressure on them and giving them one more thing on their plate to disappoint you with. 

And simple laziness can often come into play. A lot of time LDs don't initiate because they simply don't have to. They know it is just a matter of time before the HD does it. Why should the LD put in that effort and why should they put themselves out there when they know the HD will be knocking on their door the next day anyway. 

Another factor that I think is at play is a lot of times HDs don't recognize when LDs do signal their interest because the LD's signals can be so subtle compared to how the HD would initiate. Sometimes the LDs ARE trying to initiate but the HD doesn't see it and so the HD harps on the LD to initiate and the LD becomes frustrated thinking that what they do is never good enough.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Sfort said:


> You said,
> 
> 
> ...so I asked what your definition is. If the definition is situational, pick the situation.


You are asking how I define ME initiating...?? Like, what it looks like if I am initiating??


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

The problem is compounded when the LD spouse isn't willing to consider or explain why he or she is LD. There have been cases where an LD spouse says to a counselor, "I love it when s/he initiates. It makes me feel loved and wanted. I don't initiate with him/her because I want him/her to initiate with me!"

It will be very troubling (but good) if we can determine that the LD/HD mismatch can be resolved by communications. I just don't think that's it. When one has to be the mind reader, it's a problem.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> You are asking how I define ME initiating...?? Like, what it looks like if I am initiating??


We can start with that.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

My first husband had a high drive (we were well-matched)...and once in awhile, he would complain that I never initiated sex with him. I never ever refused him, because I was excited to have sex with him every single time he wanted to, but I never needed to initiate, because I just didn't think of it and because HE was approaching me for sex every time I walked by almost!!! Lol!

But when he complained about that, I DID try initiating...and guess what?? HE REFUSED!!!!!!
He suddenly realized that if HE was in the mood for sex, HE was approaching ME for sex...if he wasn't initiating with me, HE wasn't in the mood!!!!! 

The next time he complained that I never initiated, I hit him with a pillow. And that's how we sorted it out!

So take that as a cautionary tale, frustrated HD men...BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR...Lol!!!


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

LisaDiane said:


> I think it's also useful to define what "initiating" is, because that seems to be very subjective between high drive and low drive couples as well.


We were probably cross posting at the same time, because I do think this is something that plays a factor. 

I think HDs tend to use their methodology of initiation as their benchmark and so if the LD does not use that method or that level of assertiveness, they don't recognize it as an initiation or as a signal of interest. 

Women especially often believe they are being overt or even brazen and other women may even find it shockingly overt, but to man, it can appear so subtle to not even register a blip on his radar. 

Some women's initiation is dabbing on some perfume after a shower or just wrapping in a towel instead of putting on pajamas. Some people's initiation is touching her toes onto his lower leg in bed. 

She may be feeling bold and courageous and really putting herself out there and feeling vulnerable,,, but to him it all just goes right over her head. She feels rejected and dismissed and perhaps even a bit resentful because he's always harping on her about never initiating. 

And then the day after she dabbed on perfume, dressed only in a towel AND touched her toes on his leg, he tells her she never initiates or shows any interest.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Sfort said:


> We can start with that.


Hmm...I might need some boundaries here, before I dive head first into THAT rabbit hole...

But really...have you READ any of my posts on here...?? You are asking someone who's lived underground like a Morlock to describe how to go swimming in a river.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> We were probably cross posting at the same time, because I do think this is something that plays a factor.
> 
> I think HDs tend to use their methodology of initiation as their benchmark and so if the LD does not use that method or that level of assertiveness, they don't recognize it as an initiation or as a signal of interest.
> 
> ...


YES, I believe you are exactly right with this. 
I also think it's a good idea to define it, because when you don't, it's easy to feel discontent while believing you aren't getting something, when in reality you ARE.

It's interesting to me that there are men who come on here who have satisfying sex lives with responsive partners who never refuse sex, yet they insist on finding one thing to complain about. It's not enough to have regular sex with an excited partner...if they already have that, they need their partner to do MORE.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Sfort said:


> The problem is compounded when the LD spouse isn't willing to consider or explain why he or she is LD.


As horny and sexually oriented as I am, I have actually been the LD partner in a few relationships. 

How could I explain why I was LD??? I was just me. To me there wasn't any problems in the relationship or in our sex lives other than I didn't have it in me to have sex as many times a day as they were wanting and eventually they moved on and got with other people (one is on at least her 5th husband that I know of so the other guys must not have been cutting it either) 
When they asked why I didn't want to have sex with them and were refusing them, My only thought was, " so does that mean the 3 times we did it last night and twice this morning didn't count?????"

I found them attractive. I found them VERY sexy. We got on well in other areas and had things in common. 

And despite what I thought was hot, wild, monkey sex.... I simply could not meet their needs and they left me despite the fact I consider myself a very sexual person. And I might add I was in my 20s and even hornier and more virile than I am now. 

Some times there are relationship issues outside of the sex. Some times there are things about one's partner that turns them off. 

In those cases, yes, people should communicate those issues and those tangible things that are holding back their sexual expression. 

But in the case of mismatched libidos and different sexual thermostat settings, the LD DOES NOT FEEL LD nor do they identify as having any kind of sexual dysfunction. They simply aren't as horny or have as high of a need for sex as their partner. They can't isolate or identify a cause because they do not feel dysfunctional until their partner harps on them enough that they begin to feel defective and inadequate.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Sfort said:


> @Laurentium said in another thread, "I think trying to get the lower-desire partner to initiate is a mistake." Is it a mistake? If so, what is the solution?


I wonder if Laurentium meant to say, " I think trying to get the lower-desire partner to initiate is just pissing up a rope" ? That's what I'd say.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

VladDracul said:


> I wonder if Laurentium meant to say, " I think trying to get the lower-desire partner to initiate is just pissing up a rope" ? That's what I'd say.


He worded it stronger than that and said it was a "mistake." Pissing up ropes is a waste of time and perfectly good urine but is rarely a mistake unless you are trying to climb up where you just pee'd on it. 

I think in some situations trying to get a LD to initiate can be detrimental but I would like @Laurentium to explain what he meant further.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Sfort said:


> @Laurentium said in another thread, "I think trying to get the lower-desire partner to initiate is a mistake." Is it a mistake? If so, what is the solution?





Sfort said:


> What is your definition?





Sfort said:


> If that solution has worked for you, raise your hand.


David Schnarch in his book Intimacy and Desire says that the LD partner is the one that should initiate sex, as they truly and always control the amount of sex in a relationship.

Let's think about that a moment. The LD partner's refusal to have sex is controlling the frequency of consentual sex in the relationship. Unless an LD partner can suddenly become the HD partner, they will always control the amount of sex. That is almost the definition of being LD. 

Now, I am going to raise my hand and give you my definition of initiate, at least in my marriage. My wife understands that if we are to remain married, I need to feel that I am in a loving sexual relationship with her. She understands how important sex and especially emotional bonding after sex are to me. I need to feel that emotional connection. She has always loved me, she wants me to be happy, and she wants a solid marriage. Even though she is LD, she initiates almost all the time. We try to schedule sex twice a week, but it is her responsibility in her mind to keep our marriage strong. She also knows that her sexual rejections of me has caused great scars in me. She is more afraid of hurting me with rejection than initiating. As such, she would rather initiate. Her initiation is to either asking me if I would like sex when I wake up in the morning, or telling me she would like to snuggle with me. I always tell her how much I would like that or how special it would be. Before and after sex we spend a lot of time holding each other, cuddling, and enjoying being emotionally one with each other.

P.S. Yes, you can't get them to initiate sex, they have to want to do it themself. You can't force your partner to do anything they don't want to do.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

If your wife is super hot (like mine) they just know they don't have to initiate. After all, guys have been after them their entire lives. The most initiation she does is say "I miss you". 

Who cares, just initiate yourself. My wife never initiates but does respond quite favorably most of the time and that's good enough for me. Sure I'd love to have my ego stroked and try to pretend I'm a "hottie"- who am I kidding? I'm a big gross hairy man after all, but strong and confident.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

While some cat is telling his wife she need to initiate sex so he'll feel more sexual desirable why not go ahead and put the icing on the cake and tell her she need to fake orgasms so not to impact his confidence as a lover?


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Sfort said:


> @Laurentium said in another thread, "I think trying to get the lower-desire partner to initiate is a mistake." Is it a mistake? If so, what is the solution?


Absolutely a mistake.

My wife will never initiate. By never I mean like maybe twice a year.

She will signal receptiveness to an initiation I have to make. That is the solution. Develop and learn signals the LD will be responsive and then tap it.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

VladDracul said:


> tell her she need to fake orgasms so [as] not to impact his confidence as a lover?


Or her lover can learn how to give her real orgasms so that she doesn't have to fake it. Of course, there is an assumption that she actually wants to have an orgasm.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

If I knew the solution, I'd write a book and make a fortune. Although several people already have. Nagoski's "_Come as you are_" is worth reading - I think there's a new edition, which I don't have yet.



oldshirt said:


> I do think telling a LD to initiate is kind of like spitting in the wind a lot of times. Often times that is just putting more pressure on them and giving them one more thing on their plate to disappoint you with.


That was basically my point. It just makes the LD partner feel more guilty and dysfunctional. As I recall it, Schnarch describes one couple (hypothetical I guess) called Ken and Barbie, where he (Schnarch) tries to tell Barbie she has to initiate, and she calls that "abuse". In present times she might make a complaint against him and it might succeed. In any case, that can be how the LDP sees it, a kind of sexual coercion.

An important factor is "responsive desire" in the sense that some people don't feel the urge until their partner initiates. A bit like someone who never really feels hungry until there is a plate of food in front of them. They can "forget to eat" all day otherwise.

In Nagoski's book, one of the most important things is removing any _inhibitory _factors, anything that turns the LDP off. 



oldshirt said:


> And then the day after she dabbed on perfume, dressed only in a towel AND touched her toes


THAT sounds like a good initiation!



oldshirt said:


> the LD DOES NOT FEEL LD nor do they identify as having any kind of sexual dysfunction.


Exactly. Unless and until they are _made_ to feel dysfunctional.



Young at Heart said:


> David Schnarch in his book Intimacy and Desire says that the LD partner is the one that should initiate sex,


Does he say that? It's a few years since I read that book, I don't remember it that way, but am happy to be corrected (especially if you can say where in the book so I don't have to read the whole thing again). He certainly says the LDP is the one who controls sex.

Every couple is different, but one thing I sometimes say to the LDP is that if they don't like initiating sex, then they don't get to mind if their partner initiates. They don't have to say yes, but they can't start referring to it in some derogatory way.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> As horny and sexually oriented as I am, I have actually been the LD partner in a few relationships.
> 
> How could I explain why I was LD??? I was just me. To me there wasn't any problems in the relationship or in our sex lives other than I didn't have it in me to have sex as many times a day as they were wanting and eventually they moved on and got with other people (one is on at least her 5th husband that I know of so the other guys must not have been cutting it either)
> When they asked why I didn't want to have sex with them and were refusing them, My only thought was, " so does that mean the 3 times we did it last night and twice this morning didn't count?????"
> ...


GOLD MEDAL 🥇


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## K3itty (May 12, 2021)

Nowadays it's easy to send flirty texts throughout the day. And by the time you guys get home, hopefully it would be more likely LD would initiate. Just gotta make it more fun and not keep score who's asking whom. I mean, yes, have a sit-down conversation saying why you want LD to initiate at least once in a while. HD needs to be more creative to get LD interested in the game.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

My wife initiated twice in 35 years together. But she would respond, so it wasn't a problem. I've been in relationships where my girlfriend was a devil sex-wise, but it put me off after a while. Yes, I know, incredible. I guess I was looking for the right balance and also the chemistry wasn't really there. But I do agree with the concept that expecting an LD partner to initiate is futile. The LD partner will feel under even more pressure, which is counterproductive.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

In Absentia said:


> The LD partner will feel under even more pressure, which is counterproductive.


Why is it okay for the LD partner to say, "You never tell me you love me", but it's not productive for the HD partner to say, "You never initiate"?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Sfort said:


> Why is it okay for the LD partner to say, "You never tell me you love me"


Who says it's ok? Am I missing something?


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

In Absentia said:


> Who says it's ok? Am I missing something?


Yes


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Sfort said:


> Yes


That's very useful.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> My first husband had a high drive (we were well-matched)...I never ever refused him, because I was excited to have sex with him every single time he wanted to, but I never needed to initiate, because I just didn't think of it and because HE was approaching me for sex every time I walked by almost!!! Lol!


Your and first husband is our dynamic, my wife would always tell me "any time you are ready, so am I". That has been the extent of her "initiating", but that has never bothered me. I can't recall a time when she has rejected my advances, but I am also considerate of surroundings, mood, and physical/mental fatigue. She has also said that me being a male she expects me to be the aggressive partner, a big turn on for her is that I desire her. Worked for us for a very long time.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

In Absentia said:


> That's very useful.


Sorry. I'm getting tired of people not being able to read my mind. (Don't miss the lame attempt at humor.)

Is it *not* okay for a spouse to say to the other, "You never tell me you love me?" I've always thought that if a spouse wants to be loved and appreciated, it's really not that hard for the other spouse to accommodate his or her needs. 

The point I was trying to make is that, in situations about which I'm aware, one spouse saying to the other, "You never tell me you love me" is perceived as a cry for affection and, if it is true, is helpful in resolving relationship issues. However, if one spouse replies to the other, "You never initiate sex" as a counter response and possibly as a point of negotiation, it is considered by many to be in bad taste or counter productive. There are recent posts here to that effect.

If it's still too obscure, don't worry about it. It's my fault.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Sfort said:


> Sorry. I'm getting tired of people not being able to read my mind. (Don't miss the lame attempt at humor.)
> 
> Is it *not* okay for a spouse to say to the other, "You never tell me you love me?" I've always thought that if a spouse wants to be loved and appreciated, it's really not that hard for the other spouse to accommodate his or her needs.
> 
> ...


Thanks... I never miss your lame attempts at humor... 

In my opinion, they are 2 completely different things, that's why I didn't understand. One involves lips, and the other lips too, but of a completely different type.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Sfort said:


> The problem is compounded when the LD spouse isn't willing to consider or explain why he or she is LD. There have been cases where an LD spouse says to a counselor, "I love it when s/he initiates. It makes me feel loved and wanted. I don't initiate with him/her because I want him/her to initiate with me!"
> 
> It will be very troubling (but good) if we can determine that the LD/HD mismatch can be resolved by communications. I just don't think that's it. When one has to be the mind reader, it's a problem.


How do you explain being HD? I mean desire is dependent on the person.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

I think the better question might be, what is it about sex in particular that makes someone not want to offer it up, unsolicited, as a nice gesture towards their partner, if they know their partner enjoys it?

One might feel very good about doing other things unsolicited simply because they know how much their partner appreciates it.

I think it goes deeper than most. In many cases I believe it’s about control, and once a partner gets into wanting and using control in that way, sexuality losses it’s connection to pleasure and intimacy. Control is a nuclear option that’s not recognized for what it is when it crops up. I think LD is often latched onto by the controlling partner because they can maintain control without appearing to.

This is not the case for lack of initiation across the board. @LisaDiane made a beautiful case for two HD partners where initiation works best when only one partner is responsible for it. And how trying to change that dynamic was damaging.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

Anastasia6 said:


> How do you explain being HD? I mean desire is dependent on the person.


There are people who are biologically HD, as far as I know, with me being one of them. If an HD person has tremendous desire for an LD spouse, and the if the LD spouse refuses to meet his or her needs, the HD spouse is at GREAT risk of seeking relief outside of the marriage. Beyond that, I'm not sure how to explain being HD.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

Casual Observer said:


> I think the better question might be, what is it about sex in particular that makes someone not want to offer it up, unsolicited, as a nice gesture towards their partner, if they know their partner enjoys it?


By God, old CO hit the nail on the head. Why can one spouse offer the other a ham sandwich unsolicited because he or she has to eat? Why can one spouse offer the other to pick up the kids unsolicited because someone has to do it? Why can't the LD spouse initiate with the HD spouse once in a while because of what CO said? 

I actually heard a famous female therapist ask this same question about oral sex many years ago: "Why can't you give him 15 minutes of pleasure a few times per week if that's what it takes to make him happy?" (the question naturally assuming that the couple has previously engaged in oral sex.)


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## K3itty (May 12, 2021)

Sfort said:


> Why is it okay for the LD partner to say, "You never tell me you love me", but it's not productive for the HD partner to say, "You never initiate"?


Either way both partner will feel pressure, because they are basically being reminded they didn't deliver enough. They have fell short on meeting their partner's expectations. Kind of like at work, your boss evaluates you at year-end and you don't like your score. You gotta make some changes to meet the demands. Or else you're fired.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Sfort said:


> There are people who are biologically HD, as far as I know, with me being one of them. If an HD person has tremendous desire for an LD spouse, and the if the LD spouse refuses to meet his or her needs, the HD spouse is at GREAT risk of seeking relief outside of the marriage. Beyond that, I'm not sure how to explain being HD.


Sure but you realize you asked the LD person to explain why they are low drive. It's the same explanation as the high drive person. They are biologically LD.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Casual Observer said:


> I think it goes deeper than most.* In many cases I believe it’s about control*, and once a partner gets into wanting and using control in that way, sexuality losses it’s connection to pleasure and intimacy. Control is a nuclear option that’s not recognized for what it is when it crops up. I think LD is often latched onto by the controlling partner because they can maintain control without appearing to.


This was my experience - power and control.

And once we were legally seperated, and he couldn't use sex anymore, he used the children. He silently refused to co-parent in any way.

And this is still the dynamic.

My mom died a couple of years ago, and after I told the children, they told him, and he immediately sent an email expressing his condolences.

Not long after that, my oldest daughter was hospitalized, and he didn't say a word.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

Anastasia6 said:


> Sure but you realize you asked the LD person to explain why they are low drive. It's the same explanation as the high drive person. They are biologically LD.


I wrote the original response to a thread I was reading. That was yesterday, so unless I go back and read several posts, my answer may seem out of context. I don't think LD people necessarily know they are LD or WHY they are LD. That's why communications are important.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

K3itty said:


> Either way both partner will feel pressure, because they are basically being reminded they didn't deliver enough. They have fell short on meeting their partner's expectations. Kind of like at work, your boss evaluates you at year-end and you don't like your score. You gotta make some changes to meet the demands. *Or else you're fired.*


And DESERVE to be fired, in my opinion.


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## AGoodFlogging (Dec 19, 2020)

I used to be really bothered by my wife's lack of initiation and rationalised it in the same way as other posters on here, equating it with a lack of care or love and getting hurt because of it. Of course each dynamic will be different so what I am saying is just an example from my own marriage.

The realisation I've had in my marriage is that for me and my wife our sex life and it's ups and downs aren't related to her willingness to initiate, which has always been very rarely regardless of how frequent we are being sexual. The fact is that my wife has some pretty big hang ups and is very self-conscious about being the one to initiate sex. Trying to go down the route of getting her to initiate more when we were struggle was a dead end that probably set us back by at least six months. Realising that a mutually satisfying sexual relationship in my marriage is always going to involve me initiating the vast majority of the time took its time coming! The problems we had lay elsewhere.

So, the long and short of it is, really think about whether the initiation imbalance is really the problem you are trying to fix before you start trying to fix it.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Anastasia6 said:


> Sure but you realize you asked the LD person to explain why they are low drive. It's the same explanation as the high drive person. They are biologically LD.


I’m thinking there may be a lot of people who are “LD” by choice or circumstance. They latched onto the LD label as a cover for the need to control something. Maybe getting married stimulates the desire to regain some of the independence necessarily lost.

I’m thinking the LD label itself is a really bad thing because it’s too inclusive and never questioned.

Therapists in some cases enable the LD thing when trying to be supportive instead of challenging. There’s still too much of this “you’re ok just the way you are” thinking.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

AGoodFlogging said:


> I used to be really bothered by my wife's lack of initiation and rationalised it in the same way as other posters on here, equating it with a lack of care or love and getting hurt because of it. Of course each dynamic will be different so what I am saying is just an example from my own marriage.
> 
> The realisation I've had in my marriage is that for me and my wife our sex life and it's ups and downs aren't related to her willingness to initiate, which has always been very rarely regardless of how frequent we are being sexual. The fact is that my wife has some pretty big hang ups and is very self-conscious about being the one to initiate sex. Trying to go down the route of getting her to initiate more when we were struggle was a dead end that probably set us back by at least six months. Realising that a mutually satisfying sexual relationship in my marriage is always going to involve me initiating the vast majority of the time took its time coming! The problems we had lay elsewhere.
> 
> So, the long and short of it is, really think about whether the initiation imbalance is really the problem you are trying to fix before you start trying to fix it.


Huge difference between initiating and being supportive of sexuality in a marriage. As you noted. This thread has changed my thinking a bit. Initiation is really not the big deal, and If we choose to make it a big deal, we might totally miss what’s really going on.

Its ok if one person needs to take the role of the initiator, as long as their partner is supportive and understanding and desires sexuality not just for themselves or on their own terms, but as part of the sharing and gifting they offer each other because only they can; nobody else is allowed to have that relationship with their partner.

And with that exclusivity comes a responsibility. But not a chore. It’s a responsibility one should desire to fulfill.

What, me, dreaming?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Casual Observer said:


> Huge difference between initiating and being supportive of sexuality in a marriage. As you noted. This thread has changed my thinking a bit. Initiation is really not the big deal, and If we choose to make it a big deal, we might totally miss what’s really going on.
> 
> Its ok if one person needs to take the role of the initiator, as long as their partner is supportive and understanding and desires sexuality not just for themselves or on their own terms, but *as part of the sharing and gifting they offer each other because only they can; nobody else is allowed to have that relationship with their partner.
> 
> ...


This is EXACTLY how I see it as well.

I never understood the need for me to initiate with my first husband (and to be fair, he rarely complained), because I NEVER withheld my body from him or my enthusiastic response in any way, at any time. He never asked me when I was clearly unable to comply, so I just never thought to refuse him, ever. I WANTED his sexual attention and energy directed at ME, BECAUSE I DESIRED HIM, so I always welcomed it. 

I never thought of initiating, not because I didn't desire sex with him at every opportunity, but because HE was more excited when the right time was for HIM.


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## Emily Bronte (Mar 21, 2021)

When we had quarrels about the frequency of having sex in our marriage, my LD husband would say: 'It's easy for you, women, to respond to someone's initiation. What do you have to do after all? Just lie there and be ready! But, when a man has to respond, he has to have an erection and maintain it! Do you think it's easy?' 
Which makes things even more complicated because put that way, the HD partner has to be sympathetic and understanding - after all, the LD partner refuses not because he wants to be mean but because he appears to have medical issues. My husband's erectile dysfunction, though, appears to be quite dysfunctional too  - one time he has it, another time (when he is in the mood and actually initiates sex, no matter how rarely) he doesn't. 
Please tell me - can erectile dysfunction be so selective? Isn't it a more or less permanent condition?


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## AGoodFlogging (Dec 19, 2020)

Emily Bronte said:


> When we had quarrels about the frequency of having sex in our marriage, my LD husband would say: 'It's easy for you, women, to respond to someone's initiation. What do you have to do after all? Just lie there and be ready! But, when a man has to respond, he has to have an erection and maintain it! Do you think it's easy?'
> Which makes things even more complicated because put that way, the HD partner has to be sympathetic and understanding - after all, the LD partner refuses not because he wants to be mean but because he appears to have medical issues. My husband's erectile dysfunction, though, appears to be quite dysfunctional too  - one time he has it, another time (when he is in the mood and actually initiates sex, no matter how rarely) he doesn't.
> Please tell me - can erectile dysfunction be so selective? Isn't it a more or less permanent condition?


ED can be caused by both physical (physiological) and psychological factors. It is quite possible for it to be an intermittent condition.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Emily Bronte said:


> When we had quarrels about the frequency of having sex in our marriage, my LD husband would say: 'It's easy for you, women, to respond to someone's initiation. What do you have to do after all? Just lie there and be ready! But, when a man has to respond, he has to have an erection and maintain it! Do you think it's easy?'
> Which makes things even more complicated because put that way, the HD partner has to be sympathetic and understanding - after all, the LD partner refuses not because he wants to be mean but because he appears to have medical issues. My husband's erectile dysfunction, though, appears to be quite dysfunctional too  - one time he has it, another time (when he is in the mood and actually initiates sex, no matter how rarely) he doesn't.
> *Please tell me - can erectile dysfunction be so selective?* *Isn't it a more or less permanent condition?*


I reread what you wrote and would say that if he isn't in the mood then he won't be able to perform. In my case sometimes would be definitely in the mood but not even PDE5 inhibitors would work. In any case the problem at least in my case was certainly not permanent.

I think every case is different, if he hasn't your husband needs a workup from a good doctor. A lot of things need to "work together" for success, and if he isn't aroused in his brain nothing is going to happen. So in that sense, if he isn't "in the mood" when you are, somehow you are going to need to do your best to get him in the mood. Or wait until next time.

I don't know about the whole LD/HD thing because wife and I have both always been pretty interested in one another. But, if your husband has hormone issues, he may be aroused in the brain but the signals aren't making it to his other head, and maybe nothing you do will bring the soldier to attention. And if you aren't very careful about your response, the problem can become a psychological problem because it bothers him more than it bothers you.

Hormone levels fluctuate during the day and over time. Some days he might be DTF anytime and other days/times he may not be able to perform no matter what. There are a myriad of things that can interfere with the process. He ought to take the initiative to get the problem corrected by seeing a physician, and you must be gentle, understanding, supportive because otherwise mental can make matters much worse.

I hope this isn't a T/J, if so my apologies.


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## Emily Bronte (Mar 21, 2021)

*Rus47, *thanks for the detailed answer. 
I know that sex starts from the head, I always try to be supportive and understanding, but these erectile ups and downs sometimes drive me crazy. Very often my husband blames me for them - I wasn't patient, I didn't create the atmosphere, I was talking too much during the act, I inadvertently hit him, my phone pinged, you name it... After that embarrassing silence sets in and the whole thing goes down the drain. But what must be made exclusively clear is that I have caused it.
Before him I didn't know sex took such an effort, honestly


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

It doesn’t for me. If my wife comes to bed and she’s not tired then time from her hitting the mattress to boner town is about 10 seconds.

Hopefully it stays like that. If not, then off to the doctor.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Emily Bronte said:


> *Rus47, *thanks for the detailed answer.
> I know that sex starts from the head, I always try to be supportive and understanding, but these erectile ups and downs sometimes drive me crazy. Very often my husband blames me for them - I wasn't patient, I didn't create the atmosphere, I was talking too much during the act, I inadvertently hit him, my phone pinged, you name it... After that embarrassing silence sets in and the whole thing goes down the drain. *But what must be made exclusively clear is that I have caused it.
> Before him I didn't know sex took such an effort, honestly *


Ok, now I read in your post the usual LD/HD dynamic the OP talked about and summarized in post #41. You obviously have building resentment that your "LD" husband isn't meeting your "HD" needs. A friend told me once "well the woman always sets the frequency", maybe because his wife throttled their intimacy and he very much resented her doing that. He started cheating on business trips and they ended up divorced.

Maybe that is how the "drive" differences become a marriage ending issue. "HD" partner begins to resent the other "LD" controlling their partners sexuality. The "LD" partner verbalizes that the "HD" is a "sex maniac", that's all they care about, on and on. Resentment builds on both sides tit for tat with words and actions driving a wedge between the two and a stake into the heart of the marriage. Unfortunately, I have no advice on how to break that cycle before it gets our of control.

I am blessed to have a bride who wants to solve any issues collaboratively. When ED first appeared with advancing age, her response was "well let me try this and see what happens". And I was determined to fix the problem or die trying. It is us against the world, we don't let the sun set on anger.


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## K3itty (May 12, 2021)

Rus47 said:


> And I was determined to fix the problem or die trying. It is us against the world, we don't let the sun set on anger.


I think effort is part of what HD spouses feel like LD is lacking. And then all else crumbles as we attach more and more to what's missing.

It's not so much LD needs to meet a quota on how many times they need to initiate. But the fact LD doesn't show effort in improving the MOST wanted behavior from HD. Like if LD would become more invested and enthusiastic towards sex, HD wouldn't care so much about who is initiating. But if LD doesn't even improve during sex, then at LEAST they should initiate to get some participation credit.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

K3itty said:


> I think effort is part of what HD spouses feel like LD is lacking. And then all else crumbles as we attach more and more to what's missing.
> 
> It's not so much LD needs to meet a quota on how many times they need to initiate. But the fact LD doesn't show effort in improving the MOST wanted behavior from HD. Like if LD would become more invested and enthusiastic towards sex, HD wouldn't care so much about who is initiating. But if LD doesn't even improve during sex, then at LEAST they should initiate to get some participation credit.


From the LD’s perspective if the HD doesn’t become resentful, cheat, or leave they’re happy with things and they have no reason to perturb the situation.

So it makes sense that the person wanting the change (HD) is going to be doing a lot of heavy lifting.

In terms of the LD initiating; initially I thought it was important but I came to the conclusion that it isn’t. The LD having sex is important, if they’re accepting the initiation from the HD they’re accepting you and you should take that and run with it.


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## K3itty (May 12, 2021)

ccpowerslave said:


> From the LD’s perspective if the HD doesn’t become resentful, cheat, or leave they’re happy with things and they have no reason to perturb the situation.
> 
> So it makes sense that the person wanting the change (HD) is going to be doing a lot of heavy lifting.
> 
> In terms of the LD initiating; initially I thought it was important but I came to the conclusion that it isn’t. The LD having sex is important, if they’re accepting the initiation from the HD they’re accepting you and you should take that and run with it.


Agree. 

But that to me is like meeting the bare minimum and I feel like something fundamental is missing.

I guess depends on HD's personality. I'm more of a perfectionist type (very annoying in terms of wanting everything just right) so I want MORE than being okay. I want it to be great! So yes, it takes me LOTS of work to get my LD husband to initiate. But it's worth it to me.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

K3itty said:


> Agree.
> 
> But that to me is like meeting the bare minimum and I feel like something fundamental is missing.
> 
> I guess depends on HD's personality. I'm more of a perfectionist type (very annoying in terms of wanting everything just right) so I want MORE than being okay. I want it to be great! So yes, it takes me LOTS of work to get my LD husband to initiate. But it's worth it to me.


I think it’s harder for the roughly 20% of women who are HD with a LD male partner because it’s the opposite of the expectation. So when the man isn’t initiating it’s easy to say “What the heck is wrong with this guy, or is it me?”

My wife wants a manly guy who is going to initiate on her and control the action at least to start. Only once in the last year would I say she did a “porn style” male fantasy initiation and it was awesome but I don’t need it.


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## K3itty (May 12, 2021)

ccpowerslave said:


> I think it’s harder for the roughly 20% of women who are HD with a LD male partner because it’s the opposite of the expectation. So when the man isn’t initiating it’s easy to say “What the heck is wrong with this guy, or is it me?”
> 
> My wife wants a manly guy who is going to initiate on her and control the action at least to start. Only once in the last year would I say she did a “porn style” male fantasy initiation and it was awesome but I don’t need it.


Hmm...good point about HD wife is not as common. I didn't really think of that until now.

I guess part of my frustration is being in reverse of what society says.

In this case, it seems as long as the man initiates, there'd be no problem. Cus LD and HD wives want the man to initiate.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

ccpowerslave said:


> From the LD’s perspective if the HD doesn’t become resentful, cheat, or leave they’re happy with things and they have no reason to perturb the situation.
> 
> So it makes sense that the person wanting the change (HD) is going to be doing a lot of heavy lifting.
> 
> In terms of the LD initiating; initially I thought it was important but I came to the conclusion that it isn’t. The LD having sex is important, if they’re accepting the initiation from the HD they’re accepting you and you should take that and run with it.


In my mind, partners need to stay tuned in to one another. Like one of the earlier posts where the female counselor was quoted as "what is the big deal about spending 15 minutes a day making your spouse happy?" I would submit that in most marriages, the "LD" and "HD" switch places over the years, sometimes drastically. So the one doing the throttling may have chance to experience what they have been dishing out.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Laurentium said:


> Does he say that? It's a few years since I read that book, I don't remember it that way, but am happy to be corrected (especially if you can say where in the book so I don't have to read the whole thing again). He certainly says the LDP is the one who controls sex.
> 
> Every couple is different, but one thing I sometimes say to the LDP is that if they don't like initiating sex, then they don't get to mind if their partner initiates. They don't have to say yes, but they can't start referring to it in some derogatory way.


It has been several years since my wife and I read the book chapter by chapter each week and discussed it between ourselves and then with our marriage counselor. We gave away the book. You are correct that I do remember him saying that the LD controls the sex, but I am pretty sure he also then in his explanation discussed the LD initiating sex. The reason, I am pretty sure is because it reinforced the idea of my wife being responsible for initiating. But at my age, I have forgotten things in the past.

I see responsive desire as something totally else. A responsive desire person could be either HD or LD or anything in between.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

K3itty said:


> Hmm...good point about HD wife is not as common. I didn't really think of that until now.
> 
> I guess part of my frustration is being in reverse of what society says.
> 
> In this case, it seems as long as the man initiates, there'd be no problem. Cus LD and HD wives want the man to initiate.


Yes. For whatever reason the dead bedrooms subreddit way over indexes on HD females and when I used to go there and read their stories I felt extra bad for them.

It’s bad enough not getting the sex you want but then it’s another layer on top because what you’re led to believe is that dudes are horny all the time. 4/5 are but that 1/5 isn’t.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Young at Heart said:


> I see responsive desire as something totally else. A responsive desire person could be either HD or LD or anything in between.


Yes, I think that's right


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Emily Bronte said:


> *Rus47, *thanks for the detailed answer.
> I know that sex starts from the head, I always try to be supportive and understanding, but these erectile ups and downs sometimes drive me crazy. Very often my husband blames me for them - I wasn't patient, I didn't create the atmosphere, I was talking too much during the act, I inadvertently hit him, my phone pinged, you name it... After that embarrassing silence sets in and the whole thing goes down the drain. But what must be made exclusively clear is that I have caused it.
> Before him I didn't know sex took such an effort, honestly


UGH...you are describing the last few years of my sex life with my STBX...I understand your pain and frustration...!


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## Emily Bronte (Mar 21, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> UGH...you are describing the last few years of my sex life with my STBX...I understand your pain and frustration...!


Thanks, *LisaDiane*! And I'm sorry to hear you are divorcing  Probably your complicated sex life isn't the only thing to blame but definitely the last straw. Have you had any other major disagreements? I'm sorry if you have already shared this but I'm a newcomer.

In her TED Talk lecture on the sex-starved marriage, family therapist Michele Weiner-Davis explains, "To the spouse yearning for more sex and more touch, it's a huge deal. Because it really is about feeling wanted, feeling loved, feeling connected, about feeling masculine or feminine and attractive. When this major disconnect happens, what also happens is that intimacy on all levels goes right out the door. They stop sitting next to each other on the couch. They quit laughing at each others' jokes. They don't spend time together. They stop being friends."


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

there seem to be three types of married sex partners:
1) LD who never want sex. No sense waiting for them....something is wrong that needs direct action to fix.
2) LD who are, for some reason, not horny but CAN get turned on with the right foreplay. those...waiting for them to initiate is a fool's wait, initiate yourself and be happy about it. do not give it another thought.
3) those who do not know what "LD" even means, and already have a horny married partner...i.e. the lucky ones.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Emily Bronte said:


> Thanks, *LisaDiane*! And I'm sorry to hear you are divorcing  Probably your complicated sex life isn't the only thing to blame but definitely the last straw. Have you had any other major disagreements? I'm sorry if you have already shared this but I'm a newcomer.
> 
> In her TED Talk lecture on the sex-starved marriage, family therapist Michele Weiner-Davis explains, "To the spouse yearning for more sex and more touch, it's a huge deal. Because it really is about feeling wanted, feeling loved, feeling connected, about feeling masculine or feminine and attractive. When this major disconnect happens, what also happens is that intimacy on all levels goes right out the door. They stop sitting next to each other on the couch. They quit laughing at each others' jokes. They don't spend time together. They stop being friends."


I appreciate your kind thoughts, but it's really for the best. We definitely had other serious problems, but I would have left over a lack of sex even if we didn't. The other problems were also reflective of how little he cared about me, which is why I believe he was ok with ignoring my sexual needs. 

Another thing about me is that I am repulsed by having to coerce any man to have sex with me, especially if we are supposed to be monogamous -- if HE doesn't want ME, then my attraction completely shuts down. I worked with him and talked to him about it for YEARS. And when I stopped trying so hard (to see what he would do), IT COMPLETELY STOPPED...so there was my answer.

Other people might want to hang on to their relationships even when they don't meet their needs, but I just couldn't. My whole life and outlook became "gray" without the happiness and connection that regular sex provided me with.
And WHY would I ever want to have the responsibilities of being a WIFE without any of the benefits of a sexual relationship with my husband?? THAT is what marriage is FOR -- without regular sex, TO ME, "marriage" is NOT worth it. Neither is monogamy.

I can get anything else he provided on my own - companionship, money, fixing things, even opening the jars and bottles that I am not strong enough to open - but sex is the ONLY thing a monogamous partner is supposed to provide. And that's why it makes perfect sense that all other connection and intimacy disappears when the sex disappears, as you quoted -- because SEX is what makes marriage and even monogamy special for the two people in it.

I am very sorry for you and anyone who has to try to exist and find happiness in a relationship that is a lonely sexual desert. I know how awful it is!!!


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## Emily Bronte (Mar 21, 2021)

*LisaDiane*, you are a brave person! If there were more people like you, many complacent, self-centred, self-sufficient partners in a doomed relationship would get what they deserve.

What you write is one hundred percent true. 
Sex attaches exclusivity to a monogamous relationship; it makes the partners special and unique. When I say to my stubborn husband that it is through sex that he validates me, he just blinks in utter disbelief and bewilderment, calling this a rather superficial approach to love and marriage. Honestly, he behaves like a defensive, asexual wife who blames her dissatisfied husband for placing so much emphasis on the physical. He either doesn't understand my need for validation in this way or is just unable to provide it. In both cases, the prospects aren't very hopeful.

Because I have never been in a situation like this before, I just wonder how long I will be able to endure. Every day I pray for more strength in order to break the chains that keep me in the current bog. Surely a future separation will raise a lot of relatives and friends' eyebrows, as in my country the lack of sex isn't viewed as valid grounds for a divorce. After all, he doesn't beat me, doesn't gamble and even brings me roses. 
What else is there to wish for?


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Talker67 said:


> there seem to be three types of married sex partners:
> 1) LD who never want sex. No sense waiting for them....something is wrong that needs direct action to fix.
> 2) LD who are, for some reason, not horny but CAN get turned on with the right foreplay. those...waiting for them to initiate is a fool's wait, initiate yourself and be happy about it. do not give it another thought.
> 3) those who do not know what "LD" even means, and already have a horny married partner...i.e. the lucky ones.


I have to disagree with your three types. 

My wife became type 1, but with the help of a great sex therapist realized that path she was on. That path was headed toward divorce and after really think about what divorce meant, she decided she didn't want that. So she had to figure out how to change herself so she didn't end up having me divorce her. I waited and it was worth the wait.

As to type 2, my wife is not somewhat responsive desire. But our agreement is that she is the one who needs to initiate because she is the one who wants to make the marriage work and the years of rejection have scared me and make initiation difficult. With the help of a sex therapist we have negotiated sex and its emotional bonding and connection twice a week. She has lived up to what she promised in therapy to keep the marriage alive. I feel close to her and make sure that when we do have sex that she enjoys the experience physically and emotionally.

As to type 3, I think it all depends on how different the HD and LD are and if they still have some level of emotional closeness and bonding.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Young at Heart said:


> I have to disagree with your three types.
> 
> My wife became type 1, but with the help of a great sex therapist realized that path she was on. That path was headed toward divorce and after really think about what divorce meant, she decided she didn't want that. So she had to figure out how to change herself so she didn't end up having me divorce her. I waited and it was worth the wait.
> 
> ...


I can't remember if you've ever said, but how long has it been that things have been working more successfully for you two?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Emily Bronte said:


> *LisaDiane*, you are a brave person! If there were more people like you, many complacent, self-centred, self-sufficient partners in a doomed relationship would get what they deserve.
> 
> What you write is one hundred percent true.
> Sex attaches exclusivity to a monogamous relationship; it makes the partners special and unique. When I say to my stubborn husband that it is through sex that he validates me, he just blinks in utter disbelief and bewilderment, calling this a rather superficial approach to love and marriage. Honestly, he behaves like a defensive, asexual wife who blames her dissatisfied husband for placing so much emphasis on the physical. He either doesn't understand my need for validation in this way or is just unable to provide it. In both cases, the prospects aren't very hopeful.
> ...


If you could have seen me (ineffectively) navigating my way through the whole situation with him, and then for about 6 months after I gave up, you would NOT think I was brave at all!!! I was hurt, frantic, scared, lonely, frustrated, and everything else...I could be characterized better as A MESS...Lol!!

Like I said, we had other problems...but his sexual rejection of me was symptomatic of our MAIN problem, and the very last straw for me.


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## gr8ful1 (Dec 3, 2016)

After years of rejection post-kids, out of desperation and ignorance, I asked my LD/refusing wife to be the sole initiator. BIG MISTAKE. That bred resentment on her part that still lingers. 20 years later I still have deep scars as well. In my case, on her own, years later she read up on Christian sites how her rejecting behavior damages marriages and so she stopped being a strong gatekeeper but it seems she will now forever be LD (she wasn’t that way at all when I met her 25 years ago). So it’s better now but I still struggle somewhat.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

gr8ful1 said:


> After years of rejection post-kids, out of desperation and ignorance, I asked my LD/refusing wife to be the sole initiator. BIG MISTAKE. That bred resentment on her part that still lingers. 20 years later I still have deep scars as well. In my case, on her own, years later she read up on Christian sites how her rejecting behavior damages marriages and so she stopped being a strong gatekeeper but it seems she will now forever be LD (she wasn’t that way at all when I met her 25 years ago). So it’s better now but I still struggle somewhat.
> 
> I’m sure everyone would say this is a shortcoming in me, and I should just shut up and be happy things are better, but on the off chance an LD woman reads this, I want to share something you might not have considered: it’s hard for me to have NEVER been lusted after in my life. I’m not a bad looking guy at all (I know, I know). I’m not looking for other women to lust after me - I want my wife to do so. With what I’ve accomplished in life, I’m 100% sure women would throw themselves at me should I become single again, but divorce is not a viable option at this point. My only point here is to share with others there are consequential damages done by wives who never, ever truly lust after their H. I wonder if anyone here can even relate? I am not desperately lacking in self esteem - at all. My point is that I don’t think it’s wrong for a H to want to be sexually desired, and it’s painful to at least this man that this isn’t there.
> 
> ...


This sounds AWFUL, and you are wrong -- most people (on here at least) would say this is HER shortcoming, and that your discontent and pain is reflective of how uncaring she has been about meeting YOUR needs for SO long.

SHE has damaged your self-esteem, your bond, and your marriage with her self-centered behavior...and because I know how much it hurts, I am VERY sorry that you are living with that...


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

LisaDiane said:


> I can't remember if you've ever said, but how long has it been that things have been working more successfully for you two?


About 11 years since she committed herself to rebuilding the marriage. There have been times that she backslip, but that is expected, especially, when they are brief. Still, she understands how close we were to divorce and what I need to remain emotionally connected and bonded to her.


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## Emily Bronte (Mar 21, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> If you could have seen me (ineffectively) navigating my way through the whole situation with him, and then for about 6 months after I gave up, you would NOT think I was brave at all!!! I was hurt, frantic, scared, lonely, frustrated, and everything else...I could be characterized better as A MESS...Lol!!
> 
> Like I said, we had other problems...but his sexual rejection of me was symptomatic of our MAIN problem, and the very last straw for me.


And still, you have found the courage to put an end to a life of misery, which is commendable! 
I read your introduction story the other day. You say there you have three kids and he was your second husband. Not many people would have mustered the courage to say "no more of that"!


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> This sounds AWFUL, and you are wrong -- most people (on here at least) would say this is HER shortcoming, and that your discontent and pain is reflective of how uncaring she has been about meeting YOUR needs for SO long.
> 
> SHE has damaged your self-esteem, your bond, and your marriage with her self-centered behavior...and because I know how much it hurts, I am VERY sorry that you are living with that...


What's damaging is the lies. She should just divorce him instead of putting herself through torture. Closing her eyes throughout and not even waiting for the husband to finish properly? Tolerating being held? Clearly, this woman doesn't want any physical contact with her husband, let alone lusting after him! Instead of staying in the marriage for whatever reason, she should have the guts to say "I don't want to have sex with you any more" and then accepting the consequences. Or just become a better actress.... But I bet there are kids or a lifestyle to maintain.

EDIT: I read your other locked thread. Well, she is obviously self-conscious about her body and also she doesn't seem to give a monkey's about you. And you have 3 daughters. I guess that's the reason she is tolerating you.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Emily Bronte said:


> And still, you have found the courage to put an end to a life of misery, which is commendable!
> I read your introduction story the other day. You say there you have three kids and he was your second husband. Not many people would have mustered the courage to say "no more of that"!


I actually hate reading my early posts, because I was SO in love with him, I refused to actually look at what was happening...and I hate how certain I sound that he loved me back, when now I know differently.

YES...I put my foot down, but it was after years of lowering my boundaries with him on what was acceptable to me (which I never should have done), so I could keep from facing the fact that he had changed into a person I NEVER would have chosen as a partner.

So when I look back at my choices and actions, I see weakness.

But thank you for your generous compliment!!!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Sfort said:


> @Laurentium said in another thread, "I think trying to get the lower-desire partner to initiate is a mistake." Is it a mistake? If so, what is the solution?


The dynamics between the HD/LD initiation dynamic are complex and asking the LD to initiate is probably going to make things worse. Especially if the HD is "overstimulated" and wants the LD to take on the chore of enabling overstimulation to continue ramping up even more. The solution in this scenario is likely one that involves understimulation of embracing a "less is more" attitude in the relationship. The HD gets more by the LD giving less. The LD will likely be glad to initiate in this manner and it can create a rather fun scenario of teasing and playful banter. This solution then becomes an exercise of the HD and LD removing the anxiety over frequency and finding a sustainable pattern/expectation for sex that works for both.


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## Emily Bronte (Mar 21, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> I actually hate reading my early posts, because I was SO in love with him, I refused to actually look at what was happening...and I hate how certain I sound that he loved me back, when now I know differently.
> 
> YES...I put my foot down, but it was after years of lowering my boundaries with him on what was acceptable to me (which I never should have done), so I could keep from facing the fact that he had changed into a person I NEVER would have chosen as a partner.
> 
> ...


Dear *LisaDiane, *Lord Alfred Tennison said that it's better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all  I'm also with a second husband, who incarnated everything I was looking for in a partner - he was caring, passionate, intelligent, extremely funny, self-effacing and always there for me. I'm sure that back then your second husband demonstrated the same qualities.
Don't doubt your ability to assess people - we all act according to what is shown to us and what the situation is towards the current* moment* (without having the benefit of hindsight). Don't blame yourself 'cause back then you acted to the best of your knowledge and ability.
Human beings are strange creatures - once they see a woman/man is "in the bag", they stop making much of an effort. They become complacent, insolent and take their partner for granted.
Why does it have to be like this - an eternal game of cat chasing mouse - I don't know. I'm tired beyond my wits. I want to live with someone who gives me calmness and security because that's what I believe I am able to give without being boring.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Interesting article about LD: Sexual Desire: Therapy’s Dirty Little Secret


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Laurentium said:


> Interesting article about LD: Sexual Desire: Therapy’s Dirty Little Secret


Wow, that was a great article. 

Interesting discussion that more and more people identify as asexual. I wonder to what extent people use that label to hide behind their own inhibitions and classify themselves as low desire. 

I know an old gentleman that refuses to ever eat desert. He enjoys not eating it because his mother used to punish him as a child by taking away his desert. So he learned to enjoy not eating it as a way to redirect punishment to her and show her that she had no control over him. So whenever he behaved, he refused his desert and enjoyably so. 

Now take that gentleman to therapy and see if you can work on him to get him to enjoy his desert again. Does he have inhibited desire for desert or genuine low desire for desert. Which is it? To this day this gentleman very much enjoys baking deserts and serving them to others as much as they want, but he flat out refuses to enjoy any for himself. 

I would argue that he does have a high desire for desert, but the nature of his desire is to have full control over desert and have zero vulnerability. That is the circumstance in which he gets immense pleasure that others are unlikely to appreciate.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Laurentium said:


> Interesting article about LD: Sexual Desire: Therapy’s Dirty Little Secret


The blog section is pretty good. Thanks!


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