# Marriage 2.0



## Viseral (Feb 25, 2011)

With enormous changes in western culture, gender roles, and laws that pertain to marriage, it's apparent that both men and women are less satisfied with traditional marriage (Marriage 1.0) than ever before, as evidenced by a 50% divorce rate.

I want to push forth the concept of Marriage 2.0 and make it a part of our cultural dialogue.

I ask the forum for help in defining this.

What would be a good marital system, legally and culturally, that encourages both genders to marry, benefits both men and women, minimizes financial risk, and is a good structure for raising the next generation?


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

I think your premise is wrong. Marriage 1.0 no longer exists. It is a part of history.

Currently, our society practices Marriage 2.0. And we have a very high divorce rate and increasing numbers of people delaying marriage, or even foregoing it all together.

I think a system that would be good for both sexes and good for families is what we used to have. Marriage 1.0.


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## dormant (Apr 3, 2012)

So, going back to 1.0 would result in couples staying together regardless if they are happy or not. Not a good resolution to the problem!!!


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

dormant said:


> So, going back to 1.0 would result in couples staying together regardless if they are happy or not. Not a good resolution to the problem!!!


Maybe re-define "happy"? Are couples no longer trying to work things out together, compromise, empathize, work as a team, or are couple now comprised of self-centered individuals who are only concerned with their own individual happiness?

Yes, I get that abuse and infidelity are deal-breakers, but what of those marriages when a couple drift apart because they are no longer "happy" together. Is there no room for compromise, or does one person who is not "happy" get to determine the fate of the marriage?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I just feel people are too selfish today...it's all about ME , ME , ME ...it's a fast food society... we like Instant Gratification and a lot of variety....and Independence... The casual sex lifestyles have badly contributed to people using each other...loosing empathy... as we compartmentalize our emotions towards the opposite sex .... also women not giving the Good man a second look while screwing all the studs in college... nowadays, it starts in High school. 

So then the Good men turn into D!cks to get the woman....PUA tactics is praised more than Integrity.. and hell, if it works and he wants laid... he's found his golden answer ! ...So with that ...any foolish notions he's had to love a woman, treat her right, be Mr Romantic...and marry her.... got laid to rest in his young ignorance..being overlooked for years.... 

So with age comes the reality... he is not going to settle, so he'll live a Bachelor life as well ...and get all the free sex he can get...now that he's effectively PUA'ed..... just like the Studs.. 

After all this was primarily a large incentive to marry in the Traditional days...when women weren't giving it up so freely....she wanted Security and love... he wanted Sex and her faithfulness. It was a nice exchange at one time... None of it is needed today.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

The pendulum swings, then swings back. 

Commitment at all costs wasn't the best answer for many people, so Marriage 2.0 introduced self-before-marriage and non-commitment. 

Hopefully Marriage 3.0 will be a period where people are taught how to distinguish when to commit and when not to...and what commitment looks like.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

I don't see anything wrong with the current state. If you have respect, admiration and love for your partner and show that in actions as well as words - there is a beautiful marriage.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> minimizes financial risk


I think that's an issue that I'm not even sure "traditional marriage" had really totally worked the kinks out of. The exchange of money and the risk of it has always gone hand-in-hand with marriage, whether that was bride price or dowries, or even just the financial blending of the new household. 

And - we can't really go back to "Marriage 1.0" on the financial scale - the financial situations that used to define life for most people - ie, self-labor in agricultural or artisan handicrafts fundamentally changed with the switch-over to industrial based wage labor. Something about marriage fundamentally changed when being married didn't in and of itself bring more labor and income to the household, because of their being another pair of hands to help. 

And short of a nuclear war bombing America back to the late Stone Age, I don't see us heading back to that lifestyle. 

Also - divorce rates being higher isn't exactly indicative that marriage isn't worth it. It's indicative that divorce is easier and carries far less legal and social consequences. In the past, you didn't get divorced, you simply physically separated from your spouse and either - carried on as if you weren't married if you were wealthy enough and of a high-enough status to deal with the flack, or had a lover on the down-low or even accepted and encouraged legally and socially, depending on how far back we are talking, or visited professionals for your "needs", or joined a nunnery/monastery. 

Or - you accepted that divorce wasn't acceptable no matter what the circumstances and no matter what your spouse did or didn't do, you stayed married and dealt with it. But people no longer have to do that. 



> After all this was primarily a large incentive to marry in the Traditional days...when women weren't giving it up so freely....she wanted Security and love... he wanted Sex and her faithfulness. It was a nice exchange at one time... None of it is needed today.


Also - birth control plays a large part of this, as does the fact that per-martial sex and relationships, and indeed children has basically no social, moral, or religious implications anymore. You had the incentive to get married to have sex in the past, because unless she was a professional, having sex and getting caught and even further getting pregnant was a serious risk with serious consequences. 

I'm uncertain we can really go back and re-impose that either. Are we going to stop baptizing bastard babies again? So that you have to literally fear for your child's soul as a risk of per-martial sex?

Some of those things we can't and I don't think we really want to regain. I think we have to ponder what marriage can be and should be within modern civilization.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

dormant said:


> So, going back to 1.0 would result in couples staying together regardless if they are happy or not. Not a good resolution to the problem!!!


The logical fallacy you're employing here is called false dilemma. You're implying that, either people must be trapped in unhappy, loveless marriages, or they must be free to divorce frivolously and receive cash and prizes. That isn't true. Marriage 1.0 included at-fault divorce for people who wanted to divorce for non-frivolous reasons. Spouses could even divorce for frivolous reasons under Marriage 1.0, they just weren't treated very generously by the family court system.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

TCSRedhead said:


> I don't see anything wrong with the current state. If you have respect, admiration and love for your partner and show that in actions as well as words - there is a beautiful marriage.


No, there is HALF of a beautiful marriage. And half of a beautiful marriage isn't enough. If your spouse decides that he, or she, is unhaaapy, or bored, or more interested in a coworker, there is a no-fault divorce.


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## LoveAtDaisys (Jul 3, 2013)

I've read proposals before that marriage certificates expire after a set period of time (generally the suggestion is 3-5 years); after this point, both parties can either renew their certificate or let it lapse and go their separate ways.


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## tulsy (Nov 30, 2012)

Viseral said:


> With enormous changes in western culture, gender roles, and laws that pertain to marriage, it's apparent that both men and women are less satisfied with traditional marriage (Marriage 1.0) than ever before, as evidenced by a 50% divorce rate.
> 
> I want to push forth the concept of Marriage 2.0 and make it a part of our cultural dialogue.
> 
> ...


Crazy....I had the exact same idea. I think it's a great idea.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Starstarfish said:


> I'm uncertain we can really go back and re-impose that either. *Are we going to stop baptizing bastard babies again? So that you have to literally fear for your child's soul as a risk of per-martial sex?*


 I'm not much for Religion... (I lost mine and don't plan on going back but that doesn't mean everything in various Holy books should be thrown out, wisdom still resides on some of those pages)....

Just learning the WHY's/ history behind *Infant Baptism * alone is ridiculous to me, the Story and fall of LIMBO ....introduced by the Catholic Church.. Catholic Church buries Limbo after centuries

A friend has a son - never met his father, he's 25 yrs old today..... my husband has been the closest thing to a Father he's ever known.. Love him dearly... we call him our 6th son, he calls me his 2nd Mom....I'd never look upon him like that.. nor should anyone else...

If I lived 500 yrs ago, I wouldn't be so cold as to do that either, sensitivity & a deep sense of justice/ the unfairness would still be my guide, screw religion & their dictates / labels ... though it's still not good for the boy...he was robbed... growing up without a Father ....I've seen his struggles. 

His Mom got pregnant twice by sleeping too fast with *user men* .... both disaster relationships that left her Broken and she's struggled to trust men for almost 2 decades.... Finally a very special one broke down her walls...

I will be the Matron of Honor in their upcoming wedding ..this time she did it all different, she told her fiance, she screwed it up twice by jumping in bed too fast... this time she is waiting... yep, waiting till their wedding night. Imagine that. and he was on board. God Bless him. 

There is a song (although Christian) called *"The Basics of life"* ....I like the lyrics - and feel this way about marriage too, and how we handle ourselves before we get there.... 



> We’ve Turned the Page, For a New Day Has Dawned
> We’ve Re-arranged What Is Right and What’s Wrong
> Somehow We’ve Drifted So Far From the Truth
> That We Can’t Get Back Home
> ...


I am very happy with the way Marriage is right now ...Though it's served us well... 

I do feel men get screwed in divorce though many times, for instance if I felt like cheating on my husband, being a SAHM with 6 kids, I could slaughter him, and he might as well shoot himself in the head, cause his life would be over.. but I would NEVER NEVER NEVER do such a thing to a good man, If I was going to hurt him like that... I wouldn't be able to take anything , I wouldn't be able to look myself in the mirror - he wouldn't deserve it.. but yeah.. this seems to be lost with a lot of people today...they just take what they can get....even if they were in the wrong.. 

Don't marry someone who doesn't possess the highest form of integrity ...honesty and a giving spirit , a good communicator, forgiving when it calls for... and a healthy dose of "self awareness"... and you might just be... OK...even with marriage today.


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

dormant said:


> So, going back to 1.0 would result in couples staying together regardless if they are happy or not. Not a good resolution to the problem!!!


:iagree:


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## Nynaeve (Jun 19, 2013)

Viseral said:


> What would be a good marital system, legally and culturally, that encourages both genders to marry, benefits both men and women, minimizes financial risk, and is a good structure for raising the next generation?


How about just looking at good marriages and seeing what they do right?

There's so much focus on the negative around here. The divorce rates, how people get screwed in divorce, etc.

I rarely see people talking about what people do right in marriage, what makes them work.

I know the model of marriage that I'm following is my parents'. They've been married 39 years. They treat each other with respect and kindness. They are equals. That's the marriage I'm modelling to my children.

I really think we as a society make this more difficult than it needs to be. Trying to find a formula, gender roles, alpha-beta and all that is, IMHO, all a bunch of controlling nonsense.

Just do unto others (including your spouse) as you would have them do unto you. 

It just seems to me that people get bogged down in statistics and worrying about society as a whole going to hell in a hand-basket because of divorce. I say, quit worrying so much about what everyone else is doing and just live your life. 

We don't _have_ to let other people's failed marriages, other people's lack of desire for marriage, etc, affect us. We don't have to worry about fixing society. We can just be what we want to be. That is the best model, anyway, the best way to affect change.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Viseral ought to have an appreciation for this Blog..



> New Vows for Marriage 2.0 - The Spearhead
> 
> I wrote these up to more accurately reflect the state of marriage today. It’s tongue-in-cheek, but largely true. Wedding vows are terribly outdated, and they are part of the problem for young men, who tend to take words at face value. Let them take vows that truly represent the situation they are entering, and then maybe they will be more careful about marriage.
> 
> ...


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## LoveAtDaisys (Jul 3, 2013)

Wow, SA, that's a little harsh, don't you think?

While I do agree that more and more women are taking charge and in positions of authority and power, I don't believe that means that women have complete power over men to run amuck and control them.

What about gay and lesbian couples? Where do they fall in these definitions you provide, since they do not fit the typical "Bride/Groom" definition?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

LoveAtDaisys said:


> Wow, SA, that's a little harsh, don't you think?
> 
> While I do agree that more and more women are taking charge and in positions of authority and power, I don't believe that means that women have complete power over men to run amuck and control them.
> 
> What about gay and lesbian couples? Where do they fall in these definitions you provide, since they do not fit the typical "Bride/Groom" definition?


I just googled Marriage 2.0 and found that....There are some real proposals out there, it was talked about in the Blog below even.. I might have to find it... and post some of it....

The men that have lost all incentive to marry... though this may be a JOKE / tongue in cheek...with every one of those....there is some validity mixed in, or so the writer feels... 

What do I think.. I'm old fashioned, nobody cares what I think...I can tell by my Likes.. I SUCK at TAM....

The majority wants it changed.....so change will come.. I feel the romance will utterly be sucked dry from the Old.. so I probably wouldn't care for it.

Gays and Lesbians...seems they shout louder and fight harder for making it legal while straights continue to screw it into the ground... Not sure how I feel.. I just like when people are in love and honor their unions.. I have nothing against gay people.


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> What do I think.. I'm old fashioned, nobody cares what I think...I can tell by my Likes.. I SUCK at TAM....


Being old fashioned has nothing to do with it, laying the blame/responsibility at one genders feet isn't productive.


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## LoveAtDaisys (Jul 3, 2013)

I'm not attempting to attack you, SA. I think what you said has a lot of merit. Marriage used to be about union, about stating fidelity and love for yourself and your spouse in front of your God and relatives. Now it seems to have become a lot less sacred, and a lot more entrenched in politics.

But I think there's a possibility that we're "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" here. Marriage has evolved naturally over the years, and maybe it has gotten away from the original intent of love and devotion. But how do we change the system? Do we completely re-boot, or do we re-educate?

I'm on the side of re-education. I'm a strong supporter of mandatory pre-marital counseling (the Navy required a month's worth for me). I think that people my age (early-mid 20's) and younger need to be shown the values that our parents, grandparents, and great grandparents were shown. 

That when something's broke, you have to try and fix it before throwing it away...

That sometimes, life SUCKS, and is hard, and nothing good ever comes too easy...

And that there's a good reason why Disney movies never show anything past "happily ever after" - because it's up to us to create our own happily ever after.

Is there a possibility that nowadays we are more "entitled" and selfish? Absolutely. But I don't know that just women commit this crime, just like it isn't just men that abuse in a relationship. And I think that the way to fix this problem is through education on what our roles in marriage as partners should be, and teaching young couples that it's not about who's "right" or who is "in charge" or who "wears the pants", but about working together and respecting each other as equals.


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## Viseral (Feb 25, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Viseral ought to have an appreciation for this Blog..


Actually, that was pretty funny, but I'm not that jaded yet...

Really, I just want society to develop a system that has equal risks and equal rewards for both genders.

Thank you for the laugh, and for being the first gal on TAM to openly acknowledge that you could completely destroy your husband in a divorce if you wanted to, but that you wouldn't because you're so sweet...


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

TiggyBlue said:


> Being old fashioned has nothing to do with it, laying the blame/responsibility at one genders feet isn't productive.


Both men and women are to blame for their lousy choices in who they marry.. for not expecting better treatment before they walk down the aisle, for ignoring such obvious red flags, for not being who they are while dating, then changing after the marriage.. then too many women get pregnant & forget about the needs of her husband... NOT OK... Then Men who think they can keep hanging with the boys at the bar after he becomes a Daddy....withholding the emotional , not listening to their wives...

Plenty of blame to go around on both sides here.... why do people like this even attempt getting married.. it's an obvious train wreck.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Nynaeve said:


> How about just looking at good marriages and seeing what they do right?


What does that have to do with incentives to divorce that exist in our society?



> I know the model of marriage that I'm following is my parents'. They've been married 39 years. They treat each other with respect and kindness. They are equals. That's the marriage I'm modelling to my children.


That's great. But that doesn't change the laws. The law states that, if one of your parents decided that he/she was unhaaapy, he/she could frivolously divorce and gain cash and prizes. We shouldn't be surprised when people respond to a system that encourages divorce by divorcing more. That's called being rational and responding to incentives.



> I really think we as a society make this more difficult than it needs to be. Trying to find a formula, gender roles, alpha-beta and all that is, IMHO, all a bunch of controlling nonsense.


Of course it's not. It's just recognizing that reality is much different than we way we wish it were. If you think you can just wish and hope real, real hard and magically remove the incentives to divorce that exist in your marriage, you're not being rational.



> Just do unto others (including your spouse) as you would have them do unto you.


Right. That never back fires. Everybody who gets blindsided by a divorce deserved it, right? Every spouse who was cheated on must have been a louse. Every parent struggling to make child support payments can just take solace that the burden is deserved punishment for personal failings. 



> It just seems to me that people get bogged down in statistics and worrying about society as a whole going to hell in a hand-basket because of divorce. I say, quit worrying so much about what everyone else is doing and just live your life.
> 
> We don't _have_ to let other people's failed marriages, other people's lack of desire for marriage, etc, affect us. We don't have to worry about fixing society. We can just be what we want to be. That is the best model, anyway, the best way to affect change.


That sounds great. Except for the inconvenient fact that we live in a society where the actions of others affects us. If your neighbor lets his house fall down through neglect, your property value falls. When half the children don't live in two parent households, crime goes up. Performance in school goes down. That affects all of us.

When your wife's friends all get divorced and start encouraging her to dump the zero and find herself a hero, your odds of divorce go up.

The only place you don't have to worry about the influences society has on your life is on a deserted island.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Nynaeve....unfortunately, you won't get much support with those ideas here. Too many people here have been burned and feel they know it is like that for everyone else, too (mostly men seem to feel this way).

It is sad but it is the reality around here.

They hate "femi-nazis", they think judges are working for and laws are written by the "femi-nazis" to somehow control all the men in the world (or something like that, I'm not sure what they have decided the actual agenda is), and any woman who doesn't immediately agree that all men are are being discriminated against and women have it better than they do are now their enemy.

Be careful, or you will be on that list, too. I already am.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

PHTlump said:


> That sounds great. Except for the inconvenient fact that we live in a society where the actions of others affects us. If your neighbor lets his house fall down through neglect, your property value falls. When half the children don't live in two parent households, crime goes up. Performance in school goes down. That affects all of us.
> 
> When your wife's friends all get divorced and start encouraging her to dump the zero and find herself a hero, your odds of divorce go up.
> 
> The only place you don't have to worry about the influences society has on your life is on a deserted island.


 WE all influence each other..affect each other...who we hang with can lead us to a higher place or away from our partners...depending. 



> *Viseral said*: Actually, that was pretty funny, but I'm not that jaded yet...
> 
> Really, I just want society to develop a system that has equal risks and equal rewards for both genders.


 Glad you're not Jaded to that extent.. It was a bit amusing to me too ..I can look through a man's eyes and not get bent out of shape as a woman. My husband would probably find it funny even. 

I bet YOU have given more thought on these things over anyone on this forum....what do YOU think? What is your list of "changes" for this equality you would like to see in Marriage 2.0 ? Prenups not enough... Money is a huge issue that leads to many divorces too, when a spender marries a saver. Why a prenup may be right for you - CBS News 



> *LoveAtDaisy's said:* I'm on the side of re-education. *I'm a strong supporter of mandatory pre-marital counseling *(the Navy required a month's worth for me). I think that people my age (early-mid 20's) and younger need to be shown the values that our parents, grandparents, and great grandparents were shown.
> 
> That when something's broke, you have to try and fix it before throwing it away...
> 
> That sometimes, life SUCKS, and is hard, and nothing good ever comes too easy...


 Love this... .... YES... I was thinking along these lines too... Maybe I should get off of TAM and offer a course in this.. ...

I'd be awfully thorough.... I am a big proponent on *Compatibility* for couples....digging deep to know what their motivations, passions, goals, dreams are ... how they fight, their communication styles, Lover styles..how they handle $$... how they view sex..what they want in the bedroom... measure of their vulnerability with each other..... Love languages - if this causes any misunderstandings....how their temperaments work with each other... it all fascinates me ...I think I could pull out every incompatibility a couple had, so they could lay it on the table and deal with it--before the vows..... love stuff like that !



> *Viseral said*: Thank you for the laugh, and for being the first gal on TAM to openly acknowledge that you could completely destroy your husband in a divorce if you wanted to, but that you wouldn't because you're so sweet...


 He is sweeter than me....really... he just walked in here...he's downloading music on his laptop for that friends wedding I mentioned......he says to me .... "it's tough downloading this music" telling me how he was getting teary eyed listening to it .. He's the best.. How could anyone not want loved like that.. 

No I couldn't hurt a good man, and he is the type some women might get BORED with ....ya know.. the nice guy... a little too Beta... I get very upset when women mistreat men like this....just cause they can "get away with it"... 

Now if I was married to a Jack ass, I wouldn't be so sweet... He makes me sweet... I think a loving spouse rubs off on us all.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

How about you make a contract and if either party breaks it the marriage becomes null and void? 
I think if people were held to vows instead of thinking "I'll just say what he/she wants to hear" and then after marriage refusing to meet the partners needs there would be a lot less divorce. 
Just a thought.


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## Nynaeve (Jun 19, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> What does that have to do with incentives to divorce that exist in our society?


I thought the topic was marriage. Isn't the point to make marriage better?

There's two possible approaches: 1) make marriage something people want to be in or 2) make divorce something no one wants to do.

You can have a little bit of both, I guess. But it seems to me that some people (mostly bitter men, IMHO) only want to focus on the second option.

Me, I'd rather work on making marriage better, not divorce harder.

But then I'm not terribly concerned if people get divorced. I really don't think it's the end of the world as we know it that no-fault divorce exists.




> That's great. But that doesn't change the laws. The law states that, if one of your parents decided that he/she was unhaaapy, he/she could frivolously divorce and gain cash and prizes. We shouldn't be surprised when people respond to a system that encourages divorce by divorcing more. That's called being rational and responding to incentives.


Are you for real? No one enjoys divorce. No one gets "cash and prizes" by divorcing.

This is just absurd.




> Of course it's not. It's just recognizing that reality is much different than we way we wish it were. If you think you can just wish and hope real, real hard and magically remove the incentives to divorce that exist in your marriage, you're not being rational.


LOL. Don't pretend like you care about me or my marriage. Don't pretend like you know me or my marriage.

You're the one coming off as irrational when you say stuff like this.




> Right. That never back fires. Everybody who gets blindsided by a divorce deserved it, right? Every spouse who was cheated on must have been a louse. Every parent struggling to make child support payments can just take solace that the burden is deserved punishment for personal failings.


I can see that you're very emotional about this topic. Maybe you should take a break from it and come back to it when you have a little more objectivity.

Every situation is different. 

(Child support payments aren't punishment. They're for the children.)




> That sounds great. Except for the inconvenient fact that we live in a society where the actions of others affects us. If your neighbor lets his house fall down through neglect, your property value falls. When half the children don't live in two parent households, crime goes up. Performance in school goes down. That affects all of us.


Being a child of divorced parents doesn't mean that you're going to be a criminal. 

And as a society, if we're concerned about the children of divorced people, we could, oh, I don't know, like mentor the kids or something, help them out. Not penalize their parents.

Yeah, living is society means sometimes people's choices affect us. But you're exaggerating the effects of other people's divorces on your life. And lets be honest. That's not what you're really concerned about.

If you really cared about the kids, you would think child support is great and would be upset about dead beat parents who don't pay theirs.

Because, wouldn't you know it, poverty also causes increased crime. 




> When your wife's friends all get divorced and start encouraging her to dump the zero and find herself a hero, your odds of divorce go up.


Yeah right. This is pretty far fetched, actually. Also, interesting how "you" in your scenario is the husband.



> The only place you don't have to worry about the influences society has on your life is on a deserted island.


Okay.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Well I guess this didn't go over too well >> Mexico City Considers Temporary Marriage Licenses .....

That was 2 yrs ago...*The proposal was... when the two-year period is up, if the relationship is not stable or harmonious, the contract simply ends*....

The Top 10 Potential Disasters from Temporary Marriage Licenses



> *1. *"He asked me to marry him on the beach in Maui, and I said yes. Then he said just a temporary marriage." Are you starting off on the wrong foot, or should we say, semi-cold feet?
> 
> *Related*: Getting to Exclusive: Who Makes the Call?
> 
> ...


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

This under things people do that baffle me. Why in the world would a discussion on making marriage better include making divorce easier on one spouse or the other. So if you want marriage to improve make it friendlier to get out. Or yeah I'll marry now that I know when I'm done with you or you with me, it will be easier to cut ties. 

Admit defeat before you even get started. Such wimpy attitude.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

I don't know how to fix marriage but something tells me a lot more people would think harder about it if getting a marriage license had more stringent requirements than just going to the courthouse and paying for one.
It takes more work to get a driver's license than to do things like get married and have a baby and you KNOW how many idiot drivers there are out there.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

I think if people couldn't spend more than 5k on a wedding I bet the rate of marriages and divorces would decrease.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

diwali123 said:


> I think if people couldn't spend more than 5k on a wedding I bet the rate of marriages and divorces would decrease.


This is actually a pretty interesting thought.I always wondered how many people did it for the fancy party and all the attention.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

committed4ever said:


> This under things people do that baffle me. Why in the world would a discussion on making marriage better include making divorce easier on one spouse or the other. So if you want marriage to improve make it friendlier to get out. Or yeah I'll marry now that I know when I'm done with you or you with me, it will be easier to cut ties.
> 
> Admit defeat before you even get started. Such wimpy attitude.


There are people like my ex who go into a marriage with an "I've got you now" attitude. They think because it's permanent and hard to get out that they can stop participating and let their true A hole colors show. 
Usually people like this have hidden personality disorders.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

ScarletBegonias said:


> This is actually a pretty interesting thought.I always wondered how many people did it for the fancy party and all the attention.


I would say many women just want to have "their" big day. They want the wedding, not the marriage.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Satya said:


> I might be alone in feeling this way, but I think that if people did more honest work on themselves rather than look to a partner as a cure-all marriage would have a totally new definition.
> 
> I would like to have a partner (again).
> I would like to have a family (again).
> ...


I had the same experience. It's good that you could read their actions and move on.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Nynaeve said:


> I thought the topic was marriage. Isn't the point to make marriage better?


Sure. But society influences behavior through incentives. I think we should certainly reduce the incentives to divorce.



> There's two possible approaches: 1) make marriage something people want to be in or 2) make divorce something no one wants to do.
> 
> You can have a little bit of both, I guess. But it seems to me that some people (mostly bitter men, IMHO) only want to focus on the second option.
> 
> Me, I'd rather work on making marriage better, not divorce harder.


I don't think you have to be a bitter man to recognize the harm that the explosion in divorce has caused to our society. I think when something is so harmful as divorce, we should certainly think about making it a less attractive option for married people.



> Are you for real? No one enjoys divorce. No one gets "cash and prizes" by divorcing.
> 
> This is just absurd.


It's hard to take you seriously when you deny the divorce epidemic. Here's a link to an economic paper on no-fault divorce and rent-seeking. It addresses the incentives that you insist don't exist.
http://www.feb.ugent.be/nl/Ondz/wp/Papers/wp_10_681.pdf



> LOL. Don't pretend like you care about me or my marriage. Don't pretend like you know me or my marriage.
> 
> You're the one coming off as irrational when you say stuff like this.


You're adorable. I never said I know you, or your marriage. But I know this country. I have my eyes open to the laws that exist. I don't just assume that, because it would be nice to live in a world of rainbows made of unicorn farts, that my imaginary world must really exist. I live in the real world. And in the real world, divorce is an option for every married person, regardless of reason or fault.



> I can see that you're very emotional about this topic. Maybe you should take a break from it and come back to it when you have a little more objectivity.
> 
> Every situation is different.


To the contrary, I'm entirely rational. I recognize that I live in a world of laws and judges orders that I will be subject to even if I try my hardest not to be. If my wife decides that I am too boring for her, and she becomes inspired to be more like a Julia Roberts character who can dump me, screw her way across the world, and find a hunky, exotic, rich replacement for me, well there's not much I can do about it. She can file for a no-fault divorce, a judge will grant the divorce. She will have about an 80% chance of being the custodial parent (which means child support payments from me), and I get to look forward to seeing my kids every other weekend. And to top all that off, I will have to read naive posts on forums like this one from people who insist that I am somehow to blame for my situation.

Recognizing that reality makes me sad. I wish that weren't the reality for our society. But it would just be foolish of me to refuse to recognize reality.



> (Child support payments aren't punishment. They're for the children.)


Right. So, can I assume you would support reforming child support to ensure that child support payments were actually used for the welfare of children? Or do you support the current system that allows the custodial parent to use the money for any purpose (vacations, drugs, new relationships)?



> Being a child of divorced parents doesn't mean that you're going to be a criminal.


True. It only increases your risk of being incarcerated, dropping out of school, joining a gang, getting pregnant as a teenager, using drugs and alcohol as a teenager, doing poorly in school, having low self-confidence, and several other negative results. But that's all fine, right? Better to have children who are worse off then for their parents to be unable to frivolously divorce, right?



> And as a society, if we're concerned about the children of divorced people, we could, oh, I don't know, like mentor the kids or something, help them out. Not penalize their parents.


Right. Put the kids in a hole, then try to help them dig themselves out of it. You should be a politician.



> Yeah, living is society means sometimes people's choices affect us. But you're exaggerating the effects of other people's divorces on your life. And lets be honest. That's not what you're really concerned about.


I haven't quantified anything that you could accuse me of exaggerating. And now you know what my secret concerns are? Please share them.



> If you really cared about the kids, you would think child support is great and would be upset about dead beat parents who don't pay theirs.


So, you're in favor of laws ensuring that child support be used for child welfare? Great.

But, unlike you, I will draw a distinction between deadbeat parents who don't pay child support and parents who are victims of the divorce industrial complex who are sentenced to pay most, or all, of their net income as child support. There are several cases of men who went to jail because they couldn't survive on the pittance left over for them after making their child support payments. But we're putting their fathers in jail for the kids, right?



> Yeah right. This is pretty far fetched, actually. Also, interesting how "you" in your scenario is the husband.


You may be ignorant, but at least you're confident about it. If you care to learn anything, you should know that a recent study found that someone with a divorced friend was 147% more likely to divorce than someone without a divorced friend. Still think it's far fetched that peer groups influence behavior?

As for my "you" assuming a husband, I'm a man. So I often write as a man. And another inconvenient fact is that women initiate around 70% of divorces. So it's a fair assumption that an unspecified person who initiates divorce would be a woman.


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## Malpheous (May 3, 2013)

A lot going on in this thread and I tried to read it through the best I could but I'm certain I've jumble something in my take-away. But has anyone considered the ever shrinking world as a contributing factor to the divorce rates?

My first marriage was to a woman from Southern Alabama. I'm from Northern NY. Our cultures and experiences growing up were vastly different. More so than I would have thought. We met in the military and so we used that as our common cultural ground. It ended. It was essentially irreconcilable differences that led to other, non-repairable issues. I think, in retrospect, that a lot of our issues were simple cultural differences that created a great strain. 

Something else I see is the ease of divorce. My grandmothers both put up with a lot of crap from my grandfathers that they shouldn't have. Because that's just how it was for that generation.

Next generation was my mother. Divorce was a bit more accepted. My father's behavior was a bit less accepted. Short after my younger brother graduated my mother put my father out of the house.

My generation, and the next, learns from this. 

Generation Me is coming along and as someone already said. It's all about me, me, me. So now there may not even be a real reason for a divorce. It's just an option because they feel like calling it a day.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

ScarletBegonias said:


> This is actually a pretty interesting thought.I always wondered how many people did it for the fancy party and all the attention.


I like to call this out as princess for a day who doesn't give a rat's ass about happily ever after.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

I think it all starts with self respect!

both people in a marriage have to respect themselves enough to put their foot down when one is trying to take advantage.

awarness! both people need to be aware of whats going on and if things don't seem right then you have to get to the bottom of it.

and sometime your self respect is going to tell you its time to get out of dodge. no shame in that.


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## inquizitivemind (Jul 16, 2013)

Im going with the selfish theory. Marriage has never been the problem. People want their life to be like a movie. Perfect. Well, life gets really hard and people don't try any more. Whatever happened to making lemonade when you get lemons?


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