# W may/may not be going through sexual identity issues



## Average Joe (Sep 2, 2015)

I've been doing little posts here and there, because I was hoping to get into the secure area, but I can't wait it out, I'm afraid. So welcome to acronym city. Not sure if I'll do it right.

So hello! Married 5 years. She early 30's, me late 40's. We have 2 internationally adopted SN kids and I have two bios from previous marriage that I support.

W has a best friend (let's call her "Hope") who's currently getting a D, and Hope's H is accusing her of a L relationship w/ my W.

W's mother is also going through a D.

My W and Hope have gotten intensely closer over the years although they live on opposite coasts. Maybe 80 texts a day, daily phone calls, skypes, FB and I-gram likes and shares all day long. They call themselves "life partners, but platonic (P-L-P) [<--- if you mention that please keep hyphens, as they search for the acronym all the time, to see if there is anybody else using it (there isn't)]. They even have giant "P-L-P" stickers on their cars (W had them made, and sent one to Hope).

They've also just opened a bank account together. "To save for a vacation." They have at least two vacations planned for 2016.

They're both quite attractive, Hope probably moreso. Only mentioning that, because I do believe my W is completely infatuated with Hope, and I don't think it's reciprocated quite as intensely. Not unrequited, but W is just way way into Hope.

The relationship between W and me is terrible. We went through 2 years of couples therapy, and got nowhere. We never had a healthy sexual relationship. W barely touches me during sex. Never at all into it. Never lays a hand on me any other time ... well, maybe 5 times over 6 1/2 years she's reached out and touched me in any small way. 

Her love language is Act of Service/Gifts. Mine is Physical Touch. She admits denying me sex when she is mad at me, which can go on for months. She says she learned that from Hope.

We are fighting quite often, about everything. We had an "in-house" separation for the entire summer, then somehow we got on a decent track and got along for a solid week. Sex 3 times in one week! Fighting again now, though.

She's a solid type A personality, always furiously knocking out tasks. Busy ... running around ... running _from something_ it often seems? She also got a couple horses last spring. They are outside right now, and get lots of her time and attention.

We both work full time and can pay all our bills including her huge 100k student loan debt. But she takes big freelance assignments to pay for horses and other things she wants (said vacations, tattoos, horse barns and fences, etc.). This takes up just about every waking hour that isn't devoted to the kids (who are SN). She refuses to back off of the freelance work, because she loves her horses and loves Hope, and wants to take special trips with Hope, like she did "before we got married." At the end of the day, she is exhausted, sends one final "love you" text to Hope, takes an Ambien and passes out.

She's told me she no longer believes in the institution of marriage. That it is "just a stupid piece of paper," "guys are only in it for the sex," and she feels closer to Hope than to me. ("If you asked me to choose between you and Hope ... well, don't ever ask me that question.") She feels Hope could take better care of our kids than I could (Hope also has internationally adopted SN kids, that's how they first met, oversees). She says if we D, she will never remarry ... will be a "spinster ... but hopefully with Hope."

W likes to put our priorities into hierarchies:

Me:
myself
her
bio kids
adopted kids

Her:
God
adopted kids
me/Hope (a tie, at least on paper!)
herself

She's been reading the new Maria Bello book ("Whatever ... Love is Love"), little bits at a time, all summer, more intensely during times we are fighting. In fact, every photo she sends to Hope, she hashtags with that book title.

She is constantly on her laptop, positioned where I can't see, mostly for texting/skyping Hope. But the other day I caught a glimpse of her screen, opened to this Advocate article: 

#27BiStories: Why a Bisexual's Sexual Orientation Is Still Important Even If They're in a Relationship | Advocate.com

She's been accused of being a L her whole life, she's told me. Categorizing people by their clothing style or mannerisms is not me at all. But people find her to be very "tom-boyish." Whatever. I love tough women, covered in mud. But somehow the other night we got to talking about her intense friendship with Hope and bisexuality came up. She staunchly denied it. Very intense protesteth-too-much denial. She was raised in a very conservative gay-is-wrong home. She said to me "I knew it. I was just waiting for you to accuse me of being a L." I assured her I didn't think she was a L. But I had "just never seen a friendship as intense as this, where it is more important than marriage." W liked to think that was an opportunity to highlight the weakness of our marriage, as opposed to the intense friendship. I said "giving love, and hopefully getting some back, is a privilege in this world, and something to cherish. But it shouldn't be more important than our marriage." She said I was wrong, that our marriage will never be as strong and intense as her relationship with Hope.

Primarily, I want her to be true to herself (and I think she is not really sure who she really is yet.) Then maybe other things will start to fall into place. That place will probably not involve being married to me, but at least she'll be happy. And I won't feel like I'm as much of a problem for her as I do now.

She says if we split up, Hope and her kids will likely move in here with her. She desperately wants to keep our house and land. It's a fantastic property. One wildcard in all of this will be if Hope starts to date, or gets married again. She loves men, and loves the power she has over men. I've seen it many times. "No, Hope will never get married again," W assures me.

I've been trying to get more involved with W. Started going to her church. I'm not really a believer, but I happily go and she likes it. I've joined a men's discussion group there, too. I told them all of the above. They think it amounts to "psychological abuse" and have urged me to get back into therapy. I'm starting with a new "life coach" this weekend. W can't go to this one, but says she will try to go in the future.

So with the best friend's D and mom's D, W probably, understandably, has a lot of man hatred going on right now. But ... last night I asked her if she wanted to stay married. She said "if you asked me a month ago i would have said no way. Now, I don't know."

I love her, I'm wildly physically attracted to her, and was pretty intellectually into her before it all seemed to go to hell this last year. But this feels really wrong, moreso every day. I will be financially crucified in another D, but it seems to be a no-brainer.

So any initial thoughts as to what this looks like from the outside, from all of that disjointed info?

That was so long, and took hours to write, sorry : o


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Sounds like you really love her, but you are allowing behaviors in her that are hurting you. I can understand wanting to let her go to just be happy...but don't let yourself get trampled in the meantime.

I would start protecting assets and figuring out an escape plan if I were you. Then just tell her you are setting her free and don't look back (except as relates to your kids). Your wife is checked out and isn't putting your best interests as a priority, so you will have to do that for yourself, even if you love her and let her go.


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## Average Joe (Sep 2, 2015)

Thanks for the response, FW. I've been enjoying reading a lot of your stuff.


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

I agree with FW. Sounds like your W isn't really all that into you. I find it interesting that she has herself last in her own list of priorities but believes that you have yourself above everything else. That sounds to me like merely a feeble, self serving attempt at justification for her behavior.

Clearly, she doesn't have you above her own interests at all. In fact, the real problem is that she has invited a 3rd person into the marriage. Marriage is between two people so having a third person involved to the degree that your W involves her friend, Hope, is never going to work and is not healthy for the marriage.

It makes no difference if she's straight, Bisexual or gay. Marriage will never work well with your dynamic but it sounds like you already know this. The only way to change this dynamic is to insist that your W remove the third party, which as you've intimated, isn't very likely to happen.

Besides, it doesn't sound like your W is in to you much at all and it really doesn't matter what the reason is. If you can't live with it, you'll need to set and enforce some boundaries. Boundaries that you already know that she's not going to be willing to agree with. It's worth a shot if you love her and want to try to save the marriage.

It's easy for some people to try and define the marriage and boundaries the way they want and thus far, you've let her have that 3rd person in the relationship. You may find if you remove that option that she may not respond like you think she will. Perhaps the potential loss of you and the marriage may shake her up a bit. One thing is clear though, and that is if you don't make any changes, nothing is going to change because it sounds like she has most of what she wants.


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## snerg (Apr 10, 2013)

Since your wife has learned so much from her friend, perhaps you should learn something from her friend's husband.

Protect yourself.
See a lawyer.
Start the 180.
Start to divorce.

She's not into you.
She's admitted that she doesn't want to stay married (even if she says she's not sure - that's an indicator that she's just about done).

She even has plans to have Hope move into your house once you're out. That would be the nail for me.

Counseling might help, however, it sounds like she's more into Hope and not you and you are fighting a battle of attrition.

Really look hard into protecting yourself. Financially and especially emotionally.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

What it looks like to me is summarized by:



> She desperately wants to keep our house and land.


She wants YOU to be the "bad guy" who divorces her.... so she can
keep her comfort zone in the physical and "religion" realms.

Snerg has it right... "battle of attrition".


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## EVG39 (Jun 4, 2015)

AJ, sorry you are here and sorry for the mess you have on your hands.
I suspect you know the answer to the question you posed and you are only seeking reassurance so you can wrap your mind around the unpleasant truth you already know. Other posters have confirmed this view but let me say it plainly. Your wife is an immature narcissist who seems to only view you as a meal ticket. Your marriage, as it stands now is a sham. Sorry to be so harsh but sometimes we need to hear the truth in no uncertain terms. 
Moreover, I agree with the men in your men's group. You are the (wiling) victim of an abuser. That frankly should concern you as much as the state of your marriage. You say you only want what is best for her, even if that doesn't include you. Is that consistent with how a man with a shred of self esteem would view the woman he loves? Do you think she wants what is best for you? You know the answer even if you cant bring yourself to voice it. Moreover, why do you think it a given that your children should be raised in a home with your Witch of a wife and Hope? Aren't they worth fighting for? Don't they deserve better ?
Look , even if you end the marriage and move on unless you fix what in yourself allows you to be treated like this , all you are going to do is end up with the same kind of woman. You deserve better too don't you think? 
Why don't you go over to Men's Clubhouse and read the links posted under the sticky about Being a Better Man. Its a good start, but I suspect you are going to work hard and go deep to address this. 
And then, do just what Snerg said go see a lawyer. Today.


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## Average Joe (Sep 2, 2015)

Thanks all. It's the dose of reality that I totally needed. I have a lot to do.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

What I don't understand is why you love her? Is your love just a remnant of the love you felt when it was returned? 

Why does she get mad at you? 

"She admits denying me sex when she is mad at me, which can go on for months." Most people don't want to have sex with the spouse they are angry at. Denying sex while mad is normal. Being mad for months is not. Why is she mad for months?

You say she never touches you during sex and is never into it. So this is her normal. Does this sound normal to you? It sounds rather disengaged to me. Has she always been disengaged? If so, why did you marry a woman who clearly isn't into sex? What expectations did you have about sex after you married her?

She is not affectionate toward you. What about with the kids? Does she touch them, hug them, cuddle them?

Your wife sounds like she is in love with her friend, but it's not a sexual love. You describe a woman who is asexual who is in love with another woman who might also be asexual. If so, they're a match. 

Couples therapy will only work if both people want it to work. You don't go into much detail about your relationship with your wife other than lack of sex and her being mad at you. To me, that's a pretty glaring red flag that you might be hiding something too. What does your wife say about the relationship? Does she have a reason to be so disconnected from you?

Her comment about marriage: "guys are only in it for the sex" tells me she doesn't feel nonsexual affection from you. Maybe you don't give it often enough or maybe she interprets all touching from you as a precursor to sex. In either case, what are you doing to alter that perception?

Bottom line, your marriage is in serious trouble and you are focusing on her love for her friend, in this post, but add almost no information about the difficulties in the marital relationship. As if you're looking for people to confirm for you that your marriage troubles are due to your wife's odd relationship with her friend. I don't think so. Her friend may be exacerbating the problems but her friend didn't cause the problems in your marriage.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

This kind of jumped out at me:



> We never had a healthy sexual relationship. W barely touches me during sex. Never at all into it.  Never lays a hand on me any other time ... well, maybe 5 times over 6 1/2 years she's reached out and touched me in any small way.


Here's my theory: She's a lesbian who had certain goals that she realized would be very difficult to meet without help. She found you, someone that was willing to put up with the tiny amounts of affection she's able to stand giving you, and legally locked you in to helping to pay for her children and dream home. 

What's your future look like? You will be helping her and her live in girl friend pay for their home and children until the kids are old enough to end child support. 

You're a means to an end. Nothing more. When she's got her ducks in a row, she'll kick you out of the house and move Hope in. Be prepared for a false domestic violence charge when the time comes.


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## Bobby5000 (Oct 19, 2011)

Your wife denies you and apparently takes advice from a nasty dominating woman who is not only happy to break up her own marriages but gets a certain pleasure from destroying others. If it were just you, I'd call it a day. But it isn't, you have two children who you took on as part of a family who will also have deal with a divorce. So you should evaluate the variety of different ways to address problems and conflict. 

I was not clear if you had been in contact with Hope's husband and communicated with him. If she is infatuated with Hope's nastiness, anti-male bias, and destructive tendencies, there may not be too much you can do about it but only say I told you so when her laser is directed towards your former wife.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Nucking Futs said:


> This kind of jumped out at me:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OMG could you get any more paranoid?

Here's my theory, men only get married to have a convenient hole, to have a convenient baby carrier, have someone wash the skid marks out of their underwear and put edible food on the table.

*Important disclaimer*
The views expressed above do not necessarily represent the views of the majority of women, myself included. They were only meant to serve as an invalidating technique to illustrate reciprocal paranoia.


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## Average Joe (Sep 2, 2015)

Thanks guys. I'm researching the faqs trying to figure out multi-quote while at work ... crap.

Appreciating all feedback, I'm doing serious brain-thinking this morning.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Joe, it seems to me you have a very good grasp of what she is doing. Despite what she says she has put herself first in priorities, not her god, children or husband. She sees you as putting yourself first on your list because your vision puts the marriage first and that interferes with her wants. I don't know what went on in the years leading up to this or your behaviors toward her. How she changed her mind about marriage and relationships with this OW and others. I do know things will only change when you change what you've been doing. I believe you already know that.

Whatever you decide to do, do not leave your home or abandon your children. 

Best.

BTW, have you read the stickies in the men's section? Read "Boundaries" or "No More Mr Nice Guy"?


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## Average Joe (Sep 2, 2015)

Thank you very much Anon Pink.



Anon Pink said:


> What I don't understand is why you love her? Is your love just a remnant of the love you felt when it was returned?
> 
> _*Yes, probably. *_
> 
> ...


*The biggest marriage issue has been the communication, which would have led to better boundaries etc. Additionally, she has always felt that I never loved our adopted kids as much as my bios.*


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> OMG could you get any more paranoid?


That's not paranoia, it's cynicism. And I wasn't born cynical, it's something I learned through life experience. Maybe you've had different experiences than I have. Congratulations. Not all of us have lived your charmed life.



Anon Pink said:


> Here's my theory, men only get married to have a convenient hole, to have a convenient baby carrier, have someone wash the skid marks out of their underwear and put edible food on the table.


Ridiculous. You don't need to get married for that, there's lots of women that will do all that stuff without marriage. 



Anon Pink said:


> *Important disclaimer*
> The views expressed above do not necessarily represent the views of the majority of women, myself included. They were only meant to serve as an invalidating technique to illustrate reciprocal paranoia.


It's obvious you don't really believe it. If you did, it would read "some convenient holes" instead of "a convenient hole". Keep that in mind for the next time you try to fake it.


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## Average Joe (Sep 2, 2015)

anchorwatch said:


> Joe, it seems to me you have a very good grasp of what she is doing. Despite what she says she has put herself first in priorities, not her god, children or husband. She sees you as putting yourself first on your list because your vision puts the marriage first and that interferes with her wants. I don't know what went on in the years leading up to this or your behaviors toward her. How she changed her mind about marriage and relationships whit this OW and others. I do know things will only change when you change what you've been doing. I believe you already know that.
> 
> Whatever you decide to do, do not leave your home or abandon your children.
> 
> ...


Thanks Anchorwatch.

The ongoing problem has been communication, and that I don't talk enough. She said she is done being the one who does all the talking.

I'm going through the men's section stickies now.

I read the No More Mr. Nice Guy book many many years ago, and I thought it had changed me. Perhaps not enough though. The stickies are very helpful to read, currently.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Average Joe said:


> *She had only had "one wild weekend of sex" with one other guy before we got married. Very inexperienced. *


Gay.


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## Average Joe (Sep 2, 2015)

Nucking Futs, thanks for your candor and perspective. I appreciate it.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Average Joe said:


> Thank you very much Anon Pink.
> 
> 
> 
> *The biggest marriage issue has been the communication, which would have led to better boundaries etc. Additionally, she has always felt that I never loved our adopted kids as much as my bios.*


Read No More Mr Nice Guy. If you avoid discussions and conflict she has lost respect for you. She is a talker, a communicator and from her perspective she's getting nothing (communication, understanding, empathy...) from you.

How does she come to expect you to love her adopted kids equal to your own kids? Adopted or not, they're step kids. Love takes time and she's had much more time to love the adopted kids than you have. How long have you been in their life? You didn't set out to adopt kids, she did. You fell in love with her, her kids were just part of the package. I think it's an unreasonable expectation that you love her kids the same as you love your bio kids. 

Do you feel like some of her expectations are unrealistic? If so, how do you express that feeling to her?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Nucking Futs said:


> Gay.


Possibly. More likely asexual.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

It seems that trying to keep your wife and Hope apart would be like trying to stop a moving train. She's mention so many times what life would be like without you and how everything would be set up with Hope. This must be very depressing and I'm sorry that you have to go through it. You're really doing all that can be done, you tell her you love her and want to be with her. I do find in odd that she wants you to go to her church since the Bible is clear that homosexuality and lesbianism is wrong (Romans 1). I think I would try to hang on to the marriage if you can to keep the children from growing up being exposed to lesbianism.


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## Average Joe (Sep 2, 2015)

Anon Pink said:


> Read No More Mr Nice Guy. If you avoid discussions and conflict she has lost respect for you. She is a talker, a communicator and from her perspective she's getting nothing (communication, understanding, empathy...) from you.
> 
> *I'm learning to be better at this. She's told me that she sees improvement. For example, if we've been incommunicado for awhile, I'll be the one now to initiate a talk.*
> 
> ...


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## Average Joe (Sep 2, 2015)

jb02157 said:


> It seems that trying to keep your wife and Hope apart would be like trying to stop a moving train. She's mention so many times what life would be like without you and how everything would be set up with Hope. This must be very depressing and I'm sorry that you have to go through it. You're really doing all that can be done, you tell her you love her and want to be with her. I do find in odd that she wants you to go to her church since the Bible is clear that homosexuality and lesbianism is wrong (Romans 1). I think I would try to hang on to the marriage if you can to keep the children from growing up being exposed to lesbianism.


Wait. What?


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## Average Joe (Sep 2, 2015)

Anon Pink said:


> Possibly. More likely asexual.


Interesting. I've never really thought much about that. 
She did have a string of self-proclaimed "boyfriends" before that, only a couple of whom she even actually kissed, and many whom eventually turned out gay.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

jb02157 said:


> It seems that trying to keep your wife and Hope apart would be like trying to stop a moving train. She's mention so many times what life would be like without you and how everything would be set up with Hope. This must be very depressing and I'm sorry that you have to go through it. You're really doing all that can be done, you tell her you love her and want to be with her. I do find in odd that she wants you to go to her church since the Bible is clear that homosexuality and lesbianism is wrong (Romans 1). *I think I would try to hang on to the marriage if you can to keep the children from growing up being exposed to lesbianism*.


What? You mean they have NO IDEA there are lesbians?  They don't get "Ellen" there? There is nothing wrong with having two moms. I grew up with a girl who was raised by two - of course as kids we didn't realize they were lesbians, they were "roommates" and there was a separate bedroom. The girl grew up to be the county coroner, own a restaurant, marry and have a son. Didn't hurt her one bit.

I think either she's asexual as Anon pointed out (maybe because of a puritanical upbringing, viewing sex as dirty and/or only for procreation) or she is bi but in denial because it goes against her religion and she's gone to a great deal to fight it/hide it. I bet if Hope moved in there would be sex within two weeks, if that.

OP, I'd ask her to participate in marriage counseling. If she's willing, then I'd say there are five possible outcomes:
1) MAYBE it will either come to light that Hope doesn't need to be a third wheel in the marriage; or 
2) she may learn and accept her bi-sexual orientation (if that's the case) and want a divorce; or
3) she may learn that sexual compatibility, or an attempt at it is important to a marriage as well as communication styles; or
4) you learn nothing is going to change (1 or 3) and know you tried and need to divorce; or
5) she refuses which shows you beyond a shadow of a doubt that she isn't interested in fixing it and you need to divorce.

Meanwhile I would snoop and share passwords to see if there is an EA going on between her and Hope or any PA. Depending on the laws where you are, it might make a difference in property division.


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## Average Joe (Sep 2, 2015)

Thanks very much EnjoliWoman.

She's said she will join me in therapy when it fits into her schedule, so we shall see.

I remember once, she said she doesn't want to get divorced because she doesn't "want to be one of those women who failed at marriage." Which is of course another non-reason to stay married.

Asexuality seems pretty likely to me.

Women of TAM, have you ever had anything close to a female friendship like this?

And, one ridiculous question I never bothered to ask my W: Would this still be acceptable, in her estimation, if Hope were a man?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Average Joe said:


> Women of TAM, have you ever had anything close to a female friendship like this?


Yes, but I'm bi-sexual so....


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

She consides hope her life partner.
Whether or not she is having sex with her is very insignificant.
You are not equal to hope, since she is putting more time and energy into hope then into you.
IF you know your wife has another life partner, why are you sticking around?
I myself am attracted to lots of females.


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## Average Joe (Sep 2, 2015)

Hicks said:


> She consides hope her life partner.
> Whether or not she is having sex with her is very insignificant.
> You are not equal to hope, since she is putting more time and energy into hope then into you.
> IF you know your wife has another life partner, why are you sticking around?
> I myself am attracted to lots of females.


Well she thinks (and as the Maria Bello book goes into, apparently) people can have many life partners at once, and derive different things from each. She contends that she digs the sex from me. But, she rarely wants it. While she digs the on-point emotional connection with Hope, which she needs often.


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## EVG39 (Jun 4, 2015)

Isn't that Maria Bello book the story of a woman failing in love with another woman later in life after living as a married woman with children?
Ding, ding, ding!


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## Average Joe (Sep 2, 2015)

EVG39 said:


> Isn't that Maria Bello book the story of a woman failing in love with another woman later in life after living as a married woman with children?
> Ding, ding, ding!


Mostly, but from what I understand she tries to detach from all the media hype of leaving the man for the woman and dwell on the idea of multiple, and not exclusive partners. 

I approached her with that same question, and she corrected me immediately.
Edit: almost ... defensively. Argh! :circle:


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

AJ, at this time you need to figure out how you feel about all of this and what kind of action you need to take. Whether you wife is asexual or a lesbian, who know, I bet she doesn't even know.

How do you feel about Hope, do you like her as a person?

What would happen if Hope moves in before you move out? 

Can you handle them living together?

How much more are you willing to put up with?


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## Average Joe (Sep 2, 2015)

brooklynAnn said:


> AJ, at this time you need to figure out how you feel about all of this and what kind of action you need to take. Whether you wife is asexual or a lesbian, who know, I bet she doesn't even know.
> 
> How do you feel about Hope, do you like her as a person?
> 
> ...


I've been divorced before, and in low-income housing with kids woken up at night by gunshots and cops. i can put up with a lot.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

You are the meal ticket and safety net. 

Hope is her darling. 

My ex H married me for love, but over time struggled with his sexual identity and kept me in the dark. Now he's a she and I wish I'd divorced sooner. 

Don't waste your time with someone that has so little care they'll use you to keep up appearances. Have some more self respect. 

Gay, lesbian, bi, whatever... Is no reason to treat another person like they're expendable.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Average Joe said:


> Thanks very much EnjoliWoman.
> 
> She's said she will join me in therapy when it fits into her schedule, so we shall see.
> 
> ...



But she is failing at marriage because her sexuality doesn't match up with your sexuality and without matching sexualities you got nuttin!




> Women of TAM, have you ever had anything close to a female friendship like this?


Yes. I have two BFF's. We've been friends for...well since we were 12. I have zero secrets from them and same for them. When we talk we say things like I'd totally do you, hot sexy thing you...very sexual and flirty but totally not serious and always end with I love you. When I was going through a particularly difficult time that lasted several years, I absolutely leaned on them for everything! BUT!!! We did not open savings account together and we planed our girls weekends so that NO KIDS would be there. Tried it one time with kids....miserable! We joke about being in the old folks home together trying to bed the various grounds crew guys and getting kicked out for smoking drinking and cussing!



> And, one ridiculous question I never bothered to ask my W: Would this still be acceptable, in her estimation, if Hope were a man?


Hell NO!

Can asexuals also be homosexuals? 

I think so. I think it's quite possible your wife is more asexual than lesbian. I think it's also possible that she never realized that she's not really into dudes because she's not really into anyone. Maybe this Hope chick is her soul mate because their both asexual. But asexuals can love another just as they can receive love. They just don't feel any sort of real sexual attraction.

And be careful...you know you might end up gay if you hang around with gay people... You know they secretly recruit people to become gay...


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Average Joe said:


> Well she thinks (and as the Maria Bello book goes into, apparently) people can have many life partners at once, and derive different things from each. She contends that she digs the sex from me. But, she rarely wants it. While she digs the on-point emotional connection with Hope, which she needs often.


Ok, so your wife or Maria Bellow gets to define marriage in your world?

Unless you like this definition of marriage you should be forcing your wife to choose one that you like rather than you accepting that dumb definition of marraige which is leading you to unhappiness.


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## Average Joe (Sep 2, 2015)

Hicks said:


> Ok, so your wife or Maria Bellow gets to define marriage in your world?
> 
> Unless you like this definition of marriage you should be forcing your wife to choose one that you like rather than you accepting that dumb definition of marraige which is leading you to unhappiness.


Defining marriage I think will be the key part of our therapy. I certainly didn't sign up for multiple partners.


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

You've only been married for 5 years, so no alimony. Why stick around with someone who is not into you?


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## Average Joe (Sep 2, 2015)

Workathome said:


> You've only been married for 5 years, so no alimony. Why stick around with someone who is not into you?


dem kids.

2nd international adoption (joint) cost as much as a Range Rover and isn't nearly paid for.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Average Joe said:


> dem kids.


Did you adopt them both?


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## Average Joe (Sep 2, 2015)

Nucking Futs said:


> Did you adopt them both?


Indeed.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

AJ,

If you had written what you wrote about some man, no one will hesitate to say it is an affair.

Do you have a net monitor to see what they are really communicating?

I would strongly suspect they are sexting each other and masturbating. 

You may need to set up a camera to catch your WW in the act.

Have you spoken with the OWH to see what evidence he has?

At the very least your WWs indifference to you is being fueled by OW and WW running you down during their conversations.

Tamat


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Average Joe said:


> Indeed.


Huh.



Nucking Futs said:


> This kind of jumped out at me:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your only hope (no pun intended) for getting clear of this mess is if Hope wants to adopt them herself. That would allow you to give up your parental rights and should shift the child support burden to Hope once she adopts. You would want to see a lawyer about that if the opportunity arises. I see just slightly below 0% chance that you'll get the opportunity to salvage any of your future from this trap.

Go for at least 50% custody when the time comes. If she is following the plan I think she is it's the only leverage you have, she's not going to want to share her and Hopes kids with you. Be aware that unilaterally giving up your parental rights does not relieve you from child support obligations, it just eliminates any say you would have had about the kids. Someone else has to adopt them and take that support responsibility on before you'll get clear of it.

Again, see a lawyer. You're in a hole, and it's not the good kind.


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## Average Joe (Sep 2, 2015)

Yep. I'm all about the hole. Owning that hole.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Average Joe said:


> Defining marriage I think will be the key part of our therapy. I certainly didn't sign up for multiple partners.


You need to be more assertive. That's your problem. Your wfie is throwing ridiculous **** at you (by the way she knows its ridiculous ****) and you are buying into it.


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## Average Joe (Sep 2, 2015)

Hicks said:


> You need to be more assertive. That's your problem. Your wfie is throwing ridiculous **** at you (by the way she knows its ridiculous ****) and you are buying into it.


W holds the cards. We have two SN adoptees who will need support well beyond 18 and the courts will allow it, plus I'm also supporting my 2 bios for the next couple years. 

There is no clear fault on her part (yet) that will be recognized by a court.

Oh, and still paying for adoptions. Joint expense. We are orphan-poor.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

That's why we are telling you to document document document. And check your laws and consult an attorney regarding recording devices. You can also get a hidden security camera and place in common areas of the house. Use a voice recorder in her car or anywhere she goes to have private conversations with Hope. You may want to clone her phone so you get all of her texts and calls. But first check the legality of it. While it may provide much needed answers, they may not be admissible so you'll need to prioritize those things.

Kudos to you for signing on for life to SN kids. I couldn't.

Oh, and per your question on page 2, no, I have close girlfriends but never to that extent. And I'm single.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Average Joe said:


> W holds the cards. We have two SN adoptees who will need support well beyond 18 and the courts will allow it, plus I'm also supporting my 2 bios for the next couple years.
> 
> There is no clear fault on her part (yet) that will be recognized by a court.
> 
> Oh, and still paying for adoptions. Joint expense. We are orphan-poor.


I'm not sure what advice you are looking for? You've made alot of bad choices in life. A long string of bad decisions on your part cannot be easily fixed. You should start making good decisions in the future. I think it's never a bad choice to protect children that you are responsible for, especially since your wife is not doing that. Be a role model for her. I also think it's never a bad idea to state your values. Saying to your wife that you believe a strong marriage between you and her without 3d parties is best for your children..... That is not a divorce threat. That is an opinion.


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## Average Joe (Sep 2, 2015)

Hicks said:


> I'm not sure what advice you are looking for?
> 
> *I simply wanted an outsider's viewpoint. I never asked for advice, but I appreciate all I've been given.*
> 
> ...


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## Bobby5000 (Oct 19, 2011)

I would call the husband and review what he says. Perhaps the next time she starts texting away, you can text her husband and see what he thinks. Her treatment of you is disgraceful, she is self-centered, nasty, difficult and manipulative, but listens attentively to what Hope says who tells her that like most women she is subservient to her husband and needs to be more assertive. If she wanted to have a destructive same sex affair, then she should not have had two children with a husband.


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## Average Joe (Sep 2, 2015)

We're in the midst of therapy right now. I'm not sure where we will land.

We had a pretty intense argument a few nights ago. W vehemently denied that she's anything but fully hetero, insisting she and Hope are friends, friends friends. And loudly last evening, W declared to her mother that she should also start putting money into the new joint bank account, because now she's been invited to go along on the bigger of the two vacations she and Hope are planning. So now it's nothing but a friendly ladies trip of sorts.

Oh, and with reference to the Hope's STBXH ... Hope is currently trying to document him for physically abusing the kids. W has passed along a couple very disturbing "evidence" photos. I don't know what the truth is there, but he is being portrayed (to me anyway) as a monster, and someone I'd do well to not contact. I've never spoken to the man. Not sure whether he would communicate to Hope that I spoke to him, and that would matter to me, because, per above ... we're trying to work things out, all friendly-like.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Sexual or not, this relationship is not compatible with a marriage between you and your wife.
I would find out VAR laws in your state and get her to admit on tape that you are not abusive to your chilren.
Once that gameplan works for Hope, how much do you want to bet it will be run on you?


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## EVG39 (Jun 4, 2015)

So Hope is accusing her husband of abuse, eh? Congrats on discovering their playbook. You do realize this is very likely your future as well if you don't play nice? I would call this guy ASAP


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## Sarantonio (Sep 24, 2015)

Look, I didn't read it all.. the comments that is

But here is your biggest problem (In my eyes)

Something/someone is over your marriage.
Now I'm a Christian woman, so I believe God should come first.. BUT, big but
Only God should come first, not Sunday school, not bible study, not "volunteering for the good of humanity" and most definitively not another air breathing human being..

Marriage is #1 priority.


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## Average Joe (Sep 2, 2015)

Thanks again, all. Trying to figure stuff out. I firmly don't believe W would ever go down the road of child abuse. We have our first joint therapy meeting on Wednesday with this new guy. I've already gone twice, and he's given me some concrete advice, not as esoteric as the other two we've had recently. He's a Christian therapist, recommended to me from a buddy at church. So, Sarantonio, I'll be bringing up the hierarchy thing for sure.

Our adopted kids have severe physical and mental disabilities, and she feels they should come first, as they (not I) would be helpless without her. But I tend to approach it like a drop-down air mask on a plane. First she and I should breathe it in, then have the full strength to deal with the kids.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

@Average Joe, 

I'm not convinced that your wife is suffering from gender identity issues. It sounds more like her #1 priority is her SN children and she and Hope share common experiences and difficulties which bond them together in their struggles. They provide each other with the emotional support necessary to raise these kids. 

Raising special needs children is incredibly challenging and emotionally draining. It can become an obsession for some and overwhelming to others. I don't think parents of typical children can genuinely relate to the difficulties and stressors associated with the parenting of SN children. As the mother of SN children herself, Hope understands these issues and is therefore able to relate to your wife on a deeply emotional level. 

I'll give you a personal example.....My nephew is autistic and I remember my SIL telling me once that there were thoughts she couldn't share with anyone except another mother of an autistic child for fear of being judged as an awful person. When I prompted her to elaborate she said she regularly wished to be able to get in the car and leave everything behind. Frankly I was shocked to hear her say something like this. She's the perfect mother with the patience of a Saint. I can sympathize with her but I can't relate to what she goes through on a daily basis. My SIL has her "Hope", another parent of a SN child who shares her unique parenting challenges. She's also got my BIL who is her emotional rock.

So having presented my case, do you think this is a possibility with your wife? If someone were to ask you to rate yourself on your level of involvement with the childcare and rearing of your special needs children, what would you say?


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## Average Joe (Sep 2, 2015)

Lila said:


> @Average Joe,
> So having presented my case, do you think this is a possibility with your wife? If someone were to ask you to rate yourself on your level of involvement with the childcare and rearing of your special needs children, what would you say?


Lila, thanks. I think you may have nailed it. W is very much supermom, not only with our adopted kids, but with my two teens as well, as their mom is sorely lacking. She's unlike anyone I've ever known. As a parent, I can't compare. But I'm always in there too, trying my best.

She and Hope will indeed be forever linked by their unique adoption experience. 

Just hoping W and I can learn to carve out something meaningful too.


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## NotLikeYou (Aug 30, 2011)

Average Joe said:


> We're in the midst of therapy right now. I'm not sure where we will land.
> 
> We had a pretty intense argument a few nights ago. W vehemently denied that she's anything but fully hetero, insisting she and Hope are friends, friends friends. And loudly last evening, W declared to her mother that she should also start putting money into the new joint bank account, because now she's been invited to go along on the bigger of the two vacations she and Hope are planning. So now it's nothing but a friendly ladies trip of sorts.
> 
> Oh, and with reference to the Hope's STBXH ... Hope is currently trying to document him for physically abusing the kids. W has passed along a couple very disturbing "evidence" photos. I don't know what the truth is there, but he is being portrayed (to me anyway) as a monster, and someone I'd do well to not contact. I've never spoken to the man. *Not sure whether he would communicate to Hope that I spoke to him, and that would matter to me, because, per above ... we're trying to work things out, all friendly-like.*





Average Joe said:


> Thanks again, all. Trying to figure stuff out. *I firmly don't believe W would ever go down the road of child abuse.* We have our first joint therapy meeting on Wednesday with this new guy. I've already gone twice, and he's given me some concrete advice, not as esoteric as the other two we've had recently. He's a Christian therapist, recommended to me from a buddy at church. So, Sarantonio, I'll be bringing up the hierarchy thing for sure.
> 
> Our adopted kids have severe physical and mental disabilities, and she feels they should come first, as they (not I) would be helpless without her. But I tend to approach it like a drop-down air mask on a plane. First she and I should breathe it in, then have the full strength to deal with the kids.


AJ, it's all about respect. It starts with self-respect, branches out into respect for others, and comes back as others respecting YOU.

You don't seem to respect yourself. You settle for a marriage where you are un-loved and wanted only for your wallet. You think so little of yourself that you tolerate your wife having a third person smack dab in the middle of your relationship. You accept that your wife loathes you so that she would rather go on vacation with another woman than be with you.

Wait, a vacation? Without the kids? She's going to leave you taking care of the kids while she goes on a vacation with someone she cares about?

Dang, I should have quoted your last post, where you talk about what an awesome parent she is- juxtaposed against the vacation, it makes you look delusional.

Or abused.

Ahem. I think lack of self respect has been highlighted.

I bet you think you respect your wife 7 days a week and twice on Sundays.

Bad news, my friend. Respect does not mean "let 'em do whatever they want, free of consequences or expectations."

Quite the opposite. A marriage is a union of two people. Each needs to compromise with the other and try to lift them up, make them better than they would be alone.

And sometimes, boundaries on behavior need to be pointed out and enforced (backed up by consequences, like holding one's breath until turning red in the face, or possibly the SILENT TREATMENT).

You don't respect yourself enough to take a stand. And you don't respect your wife enough to set your foot down and take a stand, in defiance of her urges to sabotage the marriage, either.

Which gets you what you give.

Your wife sees a weak man, and she despises you. Hope's husband refuses to be the odd man out in his marriage, and he's getting accused of child abuse. You? You're afraid to talk to the guy and get his side because "we're trying to work things out, all friendly-like."

I bet your favorite character in the Wizard of Oz is the lion.....

And you can't even CONCEIVE that your sweet, adoring wife would level such accusations at you?

Really?

Is it because counseling is really helping things get better? Is it because of the hot sex she's throwing on you? Is it because she never frowns at you because she hangs on your every word?

Look, man. It's nice that you're going to counseling. It would be even better if your wife had any desire to improve the relationship- then counseling might actually help, rather than waste everyone's time.

May I humbly suggest that you read No More Mr. Nice Guy? Several times? I think it would be beneficial to you for informational purposes.

Pro tip- It's not about your wife. It's about you.


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## Average Joe (Sep 2, 2015)

NotLikeYou said:


> May I humbly suggest that you read No More Mr. Nice Guy? Several times? I think it would be beneficial to you for informational purposes.
> 
> Pro tip- It's not about your wife. It's about you.


NotLikeYou, thanks for the kick in the @ss. I have the NMMNG audio book around here somewhere (got it after my first D). In the meantime I stayed up for hours digging into online Robert Glover and other stuff to get back in touch with consciousness, integrity, self-soothing anxiety, and empathy. I feel better already but have a lot to do.

Edit: Damn, rereading again. Such good sh!t. Thanks for all of that, NotLikeYou.


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## EVG39 (Jun 4, 2015)

AJ, okay here is my final post to you and you can do with it what you will. You know your wife, I and others here don't. We can only speculate about what is happening based on what you tell us. You think I am wrong. I sincerely hope I am. If I am wrong then you reconcile in some fashion that most of us cant even understand because if is clear your wife is choosing another over you. Any basis of reconciliation with her as she is now is going to have to be based on you accepting and becoming comfortable with that fact. You are going to have to be at a minimum a willing emotional cuckold. I really didn't think you were willing to go there but perhaps I am wrong about this too.

But lets assume I am right for a moment. Lets assume I perhaps have seen this MO before back when I practiced family law. Assume I have seen the playbook laid open and can apply it to your situation. Here's how the dark side scenario reads:

1. Hope and your wife plan to make a life together but there are many loose ends to wrap up.
2. Both need to successfully divorce. In their cases it means full custody, spousal support and limited supervised visitation for the non custodial parent. One of the non custodial spouses is also going to have get hooked into paying for a "family" home for all of them.
3. When Hope wraps up her loose ends and is ready to move that is when your wife files for divorce. Until then your wife needs to stall you and keep you from filing. That's why you are getting what you view as mixed messages on reconciliation. She trusts (and knows) that you will out more credence in her words than in her actions which show any objective observer a high level of contempt for both you and the marriage. You are desperate for any sign of hope (no pun intended) and she knows she can dribble out little signs of interest in saving the marriage that you will latch onto regardless of her actions. 
4. Once she does file for divorce you wont know what hit you . There will almost certainly be allegations of abuse sufficient for her to obtain temporary orders removing you from the home but making you pay, pay , pay at a level you can hardly fathom. 
5. Those temporary orders, to use a football analogy, start the divorce with her deep in your red zone. From there it wont be hard to punch it over the goal line. Allegations of abuse are hard to overcome unless both client and lawyer are willing to fight back like junkyard dogs. I don't see that in you right now.
6. The triumphal end result in her mind then is that she and Hope and their children are happily dwelling in the house that you will continue to pay for, you paying a very high child support order because of the children's special needs and paying supposal support and all the debts because well with all those SN children you certainly cant expect her to work and you with very limited visitation. Except for when she and Hope go on those vacations and they dump the kids on you. 

Look, sorry to be so harsh but I have seen too many people (men and women) get run over by an oncoming train that everyone could see but them to not try to shock you out of your complacency. Again, I could be wrong, I pray that I am. But at least you cant say now that you don't know what you just might be up against. Forewarned ought to be forearmed. 

Like I say last post, my best free advice. You seem like a good and decent man and I suspect such a scenario is outside the realm of what you think possible at the moment. Trust me, its not. Not when you have a wife like yours and another woman who is likely going to be calling the shots.

Good Luck AJ. You're going to need it.


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## Average Joe (Sep 2, 2015)

Heavy shizz, evg39, I need to digest this for a bit, thank you. That's a lot to think about.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Average Joe said:


> Lila, thanks. I think you may have nailed it. W is very much supermom, not only with our adopted kids, but with my two teens as well, as their mom is sorely lacking. She's unlike anyone I've ever known. As a parent, I can't compare. But I'm always in there too, trying my best.
> 
> She and Hope will indeed be forever linked by their unique adoption experience.
> 
> Just hoping W and I can learn to carve out something meaningful too.


I think you mentioned her not wanting to attend marriage counseling but would she be open to attending family counseling specifically targeting parenting of SN children? I'm also curious, have you ever considered joining a local SN children support group?

Both of these were used by my SIL and BIL to help them when they were going through their marital issues. It's not uncommon for parents (mom's moreso than dad's) to become so focused with being that awesome parent that they ignore their marriage. I can only assume that this issue is compounded when a couple is also dealing with extraordinary circumstances such as parenting SN kids. I know that the family counselor my BIL/SIL chose to see was adamant about reinforcing the importance of a solid marriage. SN children prosper in stable homes. It might work to refocus your wife's attention on the marriage.

Regardless, I do think you need to be smart about your decisions regarding your wife and kids. Something that keeps coming up is the negative financial impact, in the form of alimony and palimony, after a divorce. Some of this can be offset if your wife is working and able to support herself. I don't think you ever mentioned it, but is she a SAHM or is she gainfully employed? If she's gainfully employed, do you two bring home a near equal income?


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## Average Joe (Sep 2, 2015)

Lila said:


> I think you mentioned her not wanting to attend marriage counseling but would she be open to attending family counseling specifically targeting parenting of SN children? I'm also curious, have you ever considered joining a local SN children support group?
> 
> *Lila, thanks. Our last therapist was, coincidentally, parent of an international SN child. She moved away, but we were making a little progress. A support group is a good idea.*
> 
> ...


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Average Joe said:


> She has a good FTJ, plus with her freelance work (most of it to pay for her horses) she ends up making twice what I do at my FTJ. She's working all the time. We have only a couple hours together each week.


This is both good and bad. Good in the sense that your wife is not using you as a "meal ticket" as is commonly assumed in cases like yours. If she owns the house and/or you share few marital assets, then your only financial obligation following a divorce would be child support. Bad in the sense that without an emotional bond, then there really isn't a whole lot holding you two together except maybe the children. I say maybe because it sounds like she's expecting Hope to fill that parenting void should your relationship fail. 

The fact that you two only spend a couple of hours together a week means you're not bonding. She's providing financially for the family but it's costing quality time with you. Have your previous counselors mentioned that couples should spend a minimum of 15 hours together, just the two of them? If it hasn't already been suggested, grab a copy of His Needs, Her Needs by Dr. Harley. It discusses the topic of Quality Time in detail. 

Look, only you can decide when to throw in the towel, but it sounds like you want to hang in there. As such, I think you should work on improving you. Become the best husband and father you can become. Meet your wife's needs because you love her but at the same time make sure that you communicate your needs to her as well. You will either realize you're wasting your time or she'll understand what she's risking to lose. One way or the other, you'll have your answer. 

If you decide that the relationship is not salvageable, then do the 180 to help you emotionally detach.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

I think your wife found a toxic party friend. They are not lovers, but they are going to find new ones together. That vacation without you and the kids? It's gonna' be a party.


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## Average Joe (Sep 2, 2015)

Lila said:


> The fact that you two only spend a couple of hours together a week means you're not bonding. She's providing financially for the family but it's costing quality time with you. Have your previous counselors mentioned that couples should spend a minimum of 15 hours together, just the two of them? If it hasn't already been suggested, grab a copy of His Needs, Her Needs by Dr. Harley. It discusses the topic of Quality Time in detail.
> 
> *I'll get that book. I didn't know about the 15 hours. That will be an interesting conversation. I'm going to bring it up at therapy tonight.*
> 
> ...


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## Average Joe (Sep 2, 2015)

MachoMcCoy said:


> I think your wife found a toxic party friend. They are not lovers, but they are going to find new ones together. That vacation without you and the kids? It's gonna' be a party.


I really don't know about that. Both of their moms are going too (but now that I think about it, W is the only one who's married).

Anyway, I think it will be only a matter of a short time before flakey Hope flakes out with a new guy. That will really wreck the dynamic.


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