# How do I fix this?



## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

I have been doing a lot of thinking these last few days about the sexual relationship between me and my H.

I knew there was something 'off' but I was having difficulty working out exactly what and why. After a lot of contemplating, I have realized.

After the trouble we had with his continued rejection, then him claiming he had never rejected me and that I had imagined it, and the effect on my esteem and confidence, we came to a point where we decided to reset. I do not think he fully understood how I felt but he did acknowledge it. I decided to work on getting over my fear of being rejected and he said if I asked/initiated, he would not turn me down, or if he really was not in the mood, he would take a raincheck for the next day with a firm promise to carry through with it.

He also said he was bored with things, so we have been working on spicing things up.

So here comes the problem...

I knew that for some reason I was reluctant to carry through with some of his ideas. I used to consider myself a really openminded wife, but I just could not work out why the thought of just dressing up in lingerie for him was something I was not into.

I realized I am holding back. I was/am without consciously understanding what I was doing, wanting to withhold from doing these things with him. Plain vanilla sex is fine. But anything else much out of that realm is difficult for me to give him.

It has been great to see him get all revved up. For example he bought some sexy lingerie for me to wear. He had a very specific idea, searched on the internet and ordered what he liked for me to wear. It arrived and he asked me to dress up in it. Pre-our rejection issues, I would have been wearing it before he even asked! But it was not the fun experience it would have been before because I just did not feel the confidence I used to.

I can only guess that on some level I am wanting to punish him for how he made me feel by rejecting me so much and then never really taking the time to appreciate what effect that had on me.

We still have a little difficulty with our different drives. He often says I am "sex mad" or a nympho. I say no and say he should be appreciative because if I were the opposite, he would still be complaining! He then says I am not the only woman in the world to enjoy sex (the meaning behind that being 'so what?')

I feel I have to edit what I say. I feel like I cannot flirt or tease him in case he accuses me of wanting sex or coming on too strong. It is awful having to be careful of flirting with your husband. How stupid does that sound?

So in essence... I don't know what to do with this. How do I fix it?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I don't like your husband.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> I don't like your husband.


Hmm. I don't like him too sometimes.

It is difficult because I know if he were reading this (which he could do as he chooses to browse my posts now and again), he would say that I only give my side. That I skew things, leave things out or remember them differently to him, the complaint being I make him look bad.

But the thing is I can only give my side and how I view things. Of course that is gonna be different to how he sees it. I do not ever come on here and manipulate the truth to make me look like the victim. I acknowledge that I am not perfect, but seeking to improve myself, and that doing that at times can be really hard. I do have negative thoughts, and wonder what we are doing at times.

I look back at our earlier years and wonder what happened. We had a good dynamic. There was not anything to concern me or worry about. It just flowed.

I see recently and how hard it has been. He says I worry too much and why can't I ever just accept things as they are?

I really often feel like I imagine a young guy must feel. I still get attention, even when I am out with the kids doing the mundanest of stuff. At the weekend I took the older kids out and had guys chatting with me. The attention was flattering. I know it does not mean anything in the larger picture but it is an ego boost.

Just rambling now I guess.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

walkingwounded said:


> the complaint being I make him look bad.


I've read most of your posts and I think he does look bad. Just this post you mention him calling you names, made you question your perceptions "he didn't reject you", belittles you for wanting sex with him, and makes you feel like you have to walk on eggshells.

And this is just from THIS post. If I went back oh the things I could dredge up. 

I'll state it again...I don't like your husband. I think he does the very least he has to do to keep you and I think you deserve better than that.


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## wiigirl (Jun 14, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> I don't like your husband.


My gut reaction also...


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## NelsonTrouble (Jan 5, 2013)

Is it possible that instead of dis-interested really its a power play? I know someone that used sex as a tool/weapon/punishment/control for many years over their wife. He would fein disinterested becuase it was worth having her beg and then feel belittled about wanting him. I sincerely hope that this is not the case for you.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> I've read most of your posts and I think he does look bad. Just this post you mention him calling you names, made you question your perceptions "he didn't reject you", belittles you for wanting sex with him, and makes you feel like you have to walk on eggshells.
> 
> And this is just from THIS post. If I went back oh the things I could dredge up.
> 
> I'll state it again...I don't like your husband. I think he does the very least he has to do to keep you and I think you deserve better than that.


I would bet all my money on the fact that if he read that, he would immediately say the name calling is meant lightheartedly. Oh yeah he may not say it nastily, but just because he says it with a smile on his face and jokingly, it does not mean he does not mean it. He often does that, I believe so he can say what he thinks yet explain it away as a 'joke' if I take offense. He has said stuff like that often enough for me to believe he really does think it. The best bit was when he told me his best friend had been asking if I was still a nympho. I feel fairly assured that if I never wanted sex, they would probably be saying am I still frigid or something else equally as delightfull.

The truth is that our sex life is run by his libido. From that vantage point, I am not really sure what he has to complain about? He gets to have sex whenever he wants and the thought of me wanting it any other time is alien to him. Like that makes me a little bit weird.



NelsonTrouble said:


> Is it possible that instead of dis-interested really its a power play? I know someone that used sex as a tool/weapon/punishment/control for many years over their wife. He would fein disinterested becuase it was worth having her beg and then feel belittled about wanting him. I sincerely hope that this is not the case for you.


A power play like a bolster to the ego? It just seems like such an effort for him to pretend he is not interested. I have though often wondered if he is passive agressively showing anger and/or resentment of something by having rejected me consistently. I just do not know what if that is the case.

Whatever it is, it is true that I do not feel totally at ease to letmyself go with him. Which is sad.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

> I would bet all my money on the fact that if he read that, he would immediately say the name calling is meant lightheartedly. Oh yeah he may not say it nastily, but just because he says it with a smile on his face and jokingly, it does not mean he does not mean it.


But see if he really cared about you he wouldn't be so insensitive. By calling you names even lightheartedly he gets to keep you in your place. It's mean.



> The best bit was when he told me his best friend had been asking if I was still a nympho. I feel fairly assured that if I never wanted sex, they would probably be saying am I still frigid or something else equally as delightful.


Exactly he's put you in a no win situation. The purpose is to keep your eye somewhere else instead of on what the real problem is...HIM.



> The truth is that our sex life is run by his libido. From that vantage point, I am not really sure what he has to complain about?


Don't kid yourself ANYONE can find something to complain about.



> He gets to have sex whenever he wants and the thought of me wanting it any other time is alien to him. Like that makes me a little bit weird


.

See he makes YOU feel weird for wanting sex. It's all about HIM and his schedule and your needs aren't to be discussed.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> But see if he really cared about you he wouldn't be so insensitive. By calling you names even lightheartedly he gets to keep you in your place. It's mean.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You know,it is really weird. I was thinking about what you have said. We function day to day OK. I would hate to give the impression that he is constantly namecalling or we are always having harsh words or discussions. Yet it is allways there in the background simmering away.

Sometimes I ask myself if my expectations are too high. What *is* it exactly that I want? What I would like is what we had before. A relationship where the desire for sex is freely expressed, and acted upon, or not, with a mutual respect. That is it really. I feel very angry that I have to censor what I say. That I have to make sure I do not give the impression of flirting. Or being carefull of making suggestive remarks in case he is not in the mood. Or trying to get him to respond to a sexy text. Every-little-remark, or suggestion even vaguely related to sex is so loaded with emotion that thinking about it is no longer fun. I am constantly trying to gauge his thought if a comment slips out, or if I say I am in the mood, like is this too much? Do I look 'too' interested?

Sometimes I think about if we weren't together and he met someone else, and if he would be the same. I don't know.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Walking,

I have followed your posts for some time on this issue and I have often felt we are walking the same path.

I have similar issues with my wife. She's a LD type of person yet she will acknowledge the fact that men need to connect physically to feel loved. She's actually shown me articles about it and of course we've talked about it but that's usually the extent of it!

I've backed way off in the last few weeks and while I know I'll get bashed a little for this, I am beginning to feel that I'd rather do without sex than to get a little "taste" every now and then.

I had many of the same emotions and feeling that you've experienced and we've had lags of 4 weeks plus at a time and I just am tired of it.

I have again withdrawn most forms of affection from her but remain pleasant and cordial. I am starting to spend more time out of the home and avoid her suggestions that we go out and do things. I just can't.

It sounds as if your resentment has reached a point that is difficult to return from (I know mine has) but your only chance will be to let it all go and try yet again. I have done this a couple times in the past few years and don't know if I have another one left in me.

For now, I plan to continue down this road of living my own life and immersing myself in my friends and activities. Should there come a point where my wife realizes I have again withdrawn from her and she wants to talk about it, I will let her know that this will in fact be the last time we discuss the subject. If our love life ramps back up again, that would be great (I'm talking twice a week here with an occasional 3rd time thrown in every couple/third week). What will probably happen will be the typical ramp up and then back to the norm

Yes people, when this happens I call her on it. She's good for a while again and then it's back to rejectionville.

You know, sometimes all the persuing and chasing has only one end......It makes you VERY TIRED


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Yeah and he said earlier he was really tired as he had a bad night's sleep last night.

I asked if there was anything I could do? Offered a relaxing massage. He said no thanks. But there was something he wanted... peace and quiet.

Read: please do not bother me for affection or sex. Because let's be honest, it's not like I frequently turn my music up loud and scream and shout round the room so he does not mean that...


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

walkingwounded said:


> Yeah and he said earlier he was really tired as he had a bad night's sleep last night.
> 
> I asked if there was anything I could do? Offered a relaxing massage. He said no thanks. But there was something he wanted... peace and quiet.
> 
> Read: please do not bother me for affection or sex. Because let's be honest, it's not like I frequently turn my music up loud and scream and shout round the room so he does not mean that...


Yeah, I know what you mean! I often get the "Wow am I TIRED tonight AND I have to get up early tomorrow too"

Message received - Loud and clear! Guess you don't have a half hour or so to spare huh?


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Toffer said:


> Walking,
> 
> I have followed your posts for some time on this issue and I have often felt we are walking the same path.
> 
> ...


I hear you. 

Are you the more affectionate as well, that is, in a non-sexual affection way? I ask because you mention withdrawing most kind of affection. I am wondering does she notice you doing that?

If I were less affectionate, he would notice because I am more affectionate out of the two of us. Thing is I suspect it would not bother him because he allways claims to be not affectionate. He would however use it as a tool to gauge that I am angry about 'something.' Yeah I love that. He asks what the matter is like he does not know.

I notice you mention about doing more stuff outside the house. My H has been pushing me to get out and do more. His thinking (and he has said this) is that if I have more other stuff to focus on, I will not think so much about 'us', and dwell on it. I get what he is saying, but I think we see the same thing, differently. He thinks that me getting out more will focus my mind on other stuff and get me thinking about our problems less. Ie less 'thinking' about problem = less 'problem.'

I see it as him trying to get away from dealing with things. With me out of his way more, he is not faced with stuff so often. I see it as an avoidance tactic on his part.

I have realized also that it is really not so much about the frequency any more. It is more about the openness and respect that we do not seem to have. He trivializes my desire for sex. I feel sure I could cope with him giving a raincheck if he respected my needs. Right now I feel he thins it is OK to dictate whether the level of my desire is right, or correct. Like he feels OK to say that I 'just don't give up' if say, we had sex the previous night and I would like it again the next night. That does not happen all the time but I would not DREAM of being disrespectfull like that to him.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

walkingwounded said:


> I hear you.
> 
> Are you the more affectionate as well, that is, in a non-sexual affection way? I ask because you mention withdrawing most kind of affection. I am wondering does she notice you doing that?
> 
> ...


*For us, I don't think it's a respect issue at all. She'll acknowledge my needs but often falls short of meeting them. I could cope with a raincheck to and we've had that discussion. Often times the next morning or night results in no rainncheck, even when brought up beforehand. As with most others, there's always a reason why.

One of the things I noticed a while back is that when she is on her period, she feels free to touch me in very sexual ways (we or should I say she) do not engage in period sex. I've pointed this out repeatedly to her and she once told me she thought she did it because she knew it would't result in a sexual encounter. the problem is that she doesn't really do this kind of thing when she's not on her period!

I have found myself becoming more passive aggressive with her. After a recent "touching" issue, I told her I had absolutely no idea when she was interested. I asked her if she could give me a copy of "the manual"*


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## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

walkingwounded said:


> I hear you.
> 
> Are you the more affectionate as well, that is, in a non-sexual affection way? I ask because you mention withdrawing most kind of affection. I am wondering does she notice you doing that?
> 
> ...


I think you should take his advice...go out more.
But before you do, get dressed up nicely, as if he were taking you out on a date. If nothing else, just go to the mall and walk for 30 mins to an hour. Make sure each time you go out that you dress nicely...if you don't wear makeup, use just a little bit that makes it noticeable.
I know it may be some what of an inconvenience to you, but the more you do this, the more he may decide he wants you to stay at home.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

IndyTMI said:


> I think you should take his advice...go out more.
> But before you do, get dressed up nicely, as if he were taking you out on a date. If nothing else, just go to the mall and walk for 30 mins to an hour. Make sure each time you go out that you dress nicely...if you don't wear makeup, use just a little bit that makes it noticeable.
> I know it may be some what of an inconvenience to you, but the more you do this, the more he may decide he wants you to stay at home.


I've done this too. Sometimes in the past it's helped a little I think and other times not so much. It makes me feel like I'm gamimg my wife and that's not me

I think I'm just short of telling her that sex is off the table because I always feel stupid when it ramps back up a little (and I LIKE IT) and then it goes away again!


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

walkingwounded said:


> Read: please do not bother me for affection or sex. Because let's be honest, it's not like I frequently turn my music up loud and scream and shout round the room so he does not mean that...


He means don't bother him AT ALL.

Nice guy. 

Most men would KILL for a woman who wants to give their man a massage or affection. But yours? Nope and that's not normal for a man I don't care what anyone says.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Agree with Mavash on this

I'd kill for a relationship like this
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happysnappy (Jan 8, 2013)

I just wanted to chime in and say that I have been on both sides of this coin. I have refused sex and had it refused. I truly didn't understand how hurtful it was to refuse it until it was done to me. It's horrible and barring severe illness, i'll never do that again. I have also dated a man that sounds similar to your husband. He had a lot of emotional baggage and couldn't/wouldn't let anyone in. He trusted no one and only felt safe if he was in charge of the relationship. the entire time we dated, I questioned every word and action and tried to be what he wanted, in the end, it didn't matter and i was crying, unhappy, or sad most of the relationship. I loved him and i finally left anyway to find a much more fulfilling relationship. I just wanted to add, i am absolutely not advocating divorce or anything of that nature. I was not married to the man i referenced. I hope that you can find an answer but he's going to have to want that too.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

@Walkingwounded



Mavash. said:


> I don't like your husband.


I have to agree with Mavash

You've done everything I would only dream that my wife would do but he's not doing his part. Personally, I reckon you should woman up and be ready to lose him as it's obvious this is just not getting anywhere and he's not only ignoring your needs but he reckons that everything is fine the way it is while you are obviously suffering.

I can't offer much more help than that I'm afraid. You've exhausted and DONE everything I could have adviced based on my own experience with my HD wife.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

ANYTIME you have to walk on eggshells regardless the reason in your own home it's a very very bad sign.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Toffer

I have thought of taking it off the table. In fact I have done for short periods. But then either he comes on to me and I cannot say no, or he gets funny with me and says he cannot win. And with that I do see his point. No reason to tell him that is what I want him to do then turn him down. He has such a thick skin he just does not feel in any way upset for me to turn him down. To him it is just a logical thing, like I am not in the mood, I am too tired or whatever.

Last night I just sat at the opposite end of the sofa, on the laptop and watching TV. I was OK with him but more downbeat. Funny thing is *he* was the one trying to talk to me. I can never work out if it is because he feels less pressure when I am not engaging him, or that he feels a little bit of distance and is trying to rectify the dynamic back to how it is usually.

I do wonder if he came on here and told his story from his perspective, what he would say. I imagine it would go something like this...

"My wife overthinks and takes everything so personally. She will never just accept a situation, but has to question and argue. I am worried sometimes to tell her what I think because I think she will get upset.

"She wants sex most days, even if we have done stuff the day before,or even three or four times a week allready. I don't allways want it that much, I like the build up and having something to look forward to. I also get tired from work and am not as interested in the week. When I know we are going to have time alone together I am more likely to be in the mood.

"She gets upset if I want to take a raincheck, or if I don't want full sex. She thinks it is a slight against her that I don't want her, that I don't find her attractive. I think she is beautifull, and yes maybe I should tell her more often. But she does know I think that because I have said it before. I also think she compares herself to other women but she doesn't need to.

"She worries most of the time. I think she needs to occupy herself more so she isn't thinking as much. She needs to get out of the house more. I think she will feel better for doing this."

That is taken from various things he has said to me.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

walkingwounded said:


> Toffer
> 
> I have thought of taking it off the table. In fact I have done for short periods. But then either he comes on to me and I cannot say no, or he gets funny with me and says he cannot win. And with that I do see his point. No reason to tell him that is what I want him to do then turn him down.
> 
> ...


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Thanks for the thoughts Toffer.

I have realized that what makes this awkward is that I have recently thought that H is *not* LD. He is just lowER drive than me, if that makes sense?

We have discussed the frequency issue. I guess we used that as a starting point. My feeling is every other day. I guess you are right, I know I cannot have it that often, but truthfully on a good week we aren't that far off it anyway. So I can deal with that.

It is more that it is pretty much dictated by him. I *have* tried to work on facing my fear of rejection and have made tentative steps. On the whole he has been OK. But for me there is an overriding feeling that our sex life is governed by him and his libido. 

A good example is the 'early night' idea we implemented. One night in the week, we will go upstairs for some couple time after all the kids are asleep. Typically he will say "do you want an early night later/tomorrow evening?" I will say yeah, OK and that is that. But I do not have the confidence to say it myself, for fear of him saying, no thanks, not in the mood. He is really hard to gauge and I know my confidence is not up to being bold any more.

Sometimes I think about being spontaneous. I used to be like that a lot. But I have barriers up now. The thought of just initiating brazenly is too much because my mind is racing with thoughts. Like...

"He *will* like me being spontaneous. No, may be the forward approach turns him off? No it doesn't, he said he wanted me to be clear when I wanted it. But I know he likes a bit of a tease. May be I should do that instead? But now seems like such a good moment, it would be awesome and really passionate. But if he doesn't like it, it will ruin the moment and the evening and I will be *really* upset. And he'll think that all I think about is sex, like he has said before. No I won't bother."


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

walkingwounded said:


> Thanks for the thoughts Toffer.
> 
> I have realized that what makes this awkward is that I have recently thought that H is *not* LD. He is just lowER drive than me, if that makes sense?
> 
> ...


*I would almost swear that you and I are the same person at times except for the gender swap! I know I would appreciate it if my wife was spontaneous and intiated some (maybe 2 times total last year, probaly last time was around March) 

I get the "no I won't bother" feeling pretty much all the time now. I guess I get a bit peeved too because it seems that for my wife, sex typically has to be on the weekends. While I am OK with that to a degree, I persobally know that a mid-week "fix" makes it easier for me to get through the week. Guess it's the dopamine that's released?

Anyway, wish I could give you some better advice. I've tried a bunch of stuff over the last two years between counseling and some great advice I got here and it helped in the short term but nothing was a more "permanent" fix. After a while I think I just get tired of asking/reminding people of what they promised theywould do. To me, it often looks like they don't really care enough to follow through so why should I? When I get to this point is when I typically start to pull back from her because I see it as she doesn't really care about my needs or desires so why should I worry about hers?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, "A man (in in this WW too) is like a linoleum floor. Lay them right and you can walk on them for 40 years"*


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## Kari (Feb 17, 2012)

I'm in the same boat. My LD H says he would like for me to initiate, but it doesn't work out well when I do. He often turns me down or says OK but only if I do all the work. I've given up initiating completely and it is better this way. Through some recent difficult discussions, he knows I've been unhappy with the frequency (which for most years was about 2x month). Now even though he is LD, he is initiating every 4-5 days (he forces himself to do it, but then enjoys it once he gets started). In the past he always seemed to expect that I'd put in almost all the energy during sex, but somehow he's gotten the message on that so now he is very active, which is great.

But I'm still sad that I can't flirt or initiate. I can't surprise him in any way, and wearing lingerie would seem like pressure to him. If I even surprise him with a hug, he at first tenses up worrying if I'm initiating or expecting him to act lovey-dovey or something, but then he relaxes and enjoys the hug. I have to be very careful not to seem to expect anything from him. He doesn't flirt with me either. A date night would be stressful to him and he says he 'doesn't like that sort of thing'. 

On the one hand, he controls when sex happens. But on the other hand, he is consciously stepping up and initiating a lot more for my sake (but he ends up happy too). If I try to take initiative, it usually fizzles and is emotionally painful.

My H has responsive desire only, but doesn't like to be pressured, and my initiating feels like pressure to him. The good news is that it seems like he realized recently or tries to remember that if he starts something, even though not in the mood, he will get in the mood within a few minutes. I am grateful, and wish I could say I was completely happy, but not having the freedom to express my desire spontaneously and to live without any flirting still is sad. Also, I appreciate his acting more passionate, but I know that when he first starts, his passion is somewhat artificial (but soon becomes real). When I asked him directly, he admitted that he never feels desire until after we've actually started kissing and touching. My emotions alternate being gratitude at his very obvious efforts to step up and please me, and feeling sorry for myself that some ingredients are still missing.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

So here's one for you. It was hitting home for me during his EA. Maybe your H should have a listen

Alanis Morissette - So unsexy - YouTube

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/alanismorissette/sounsexy.html


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## golfergirl (Dec 8, 2010)

walkingwounded said:


> Thanks for the thoughts Toffer.
> 
> I have realized that what makes this awkward is that I have recently thought that H is *not* LD. He is just lowER drive than me, if that makes sense?
> 
> ...


Do you ever think you are fighting the wrong battle and maybe you are wrong? You keep referring to him as low drive. There is no way 4-5 times a week is low drive. Most people would call that average to high drive. By continually complaining about frequency which is average to high you are setting him up to think wtf - how can he win? Then comes the resentment from him for failing to please you. Do you ever wonder there may be a kind of addiction thing on your end? Not from your drive but from tying how he much he loves you to how often he initiates? I think before things change you need to change the dynamic somewhat. A lot of this comes from the words you think he would write if he told his side.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

golfergirl said:


> Do you ever think you are fighting the wrong battle and maybe you are wrong? You keep referring to him as low drive. There is no way 4-5 times a week is low drive. Most people would call that average to high drive. By continually complaining about frequency which is average to high you are setting him up to think wtf - how can he win? Then comes the resentment from him for failing to please you. Do you ever wonder there may be a kind of addiction thing on your end? Not from your drive but from tying how he much he loves you to how often he initiates? I think before things change you need to change the dynamic somewhat. A lot of this comes from the words you think he would write if he told his side.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


GG, Walkings IDEAL would be 3 - 4 times a week. She knows that her hubby is less than that and what sh'e been advised to do is settle somewhere in the middle with her hubby so it would be more than 1x a week (which I don't think they're averaging now) but less than 4


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## golfergirl (Dec 8, 2010)

Toffer said:


> GG, Walkings IDEAL would be 3 - 4 times a week. She knows that her hubby is less than that and what sh'e been advised to do is settle somewhere in the middle with her hubby so it would be more than 1x a week (which I don't think they're averaging now) but less than 4


The dynamic still needs to change. No man likes to feel un-manly and I don't know how more un-manly you can get then by feeling you can't keep your wife sexually satisfied. I find her husband's comments to her rude and borderline verbally abusive (I would say verbally abusive, others wouldn't). Question is does ww want to be right and divorced or look at changes of her own to make this work. And yes she has her own. Change internal dialogue. When turned down, if he doesn't take it personal - then he isn't being a hypocrite when telling her not to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

GG, WW has been more than reasonable in her approach and her posts have depicted the ebbs and flows. IMO she is struggling with the same dance many of us struggle with. One spouse is moving toward when the other is moving away in frustration. Rather than assuming she is pounding on her husband to satiate an addiction I see more of an internal struggle to stay true to herself without exposing herself to too much emotional damage.



> "He *will* like me being spontaneous. No, may be the forward approach turns him off? No it doesn't, he said he wanted me to be clear when I wanted it. But I know he likes a bit of a tease. May be I should do that instead? But now seems like such a good moment, it would be awesome and really passionate. But if he doesn't like it, it will ruin the moment and the evening and I will be *really* upset. And he'll think that all I think about is sex, like he has said before. No I won't bother."


There is anxiety in thoughts like these. If you are guessing about your partner's POV the anxiety is wasted as it can't be a catalyst for change. On the other hand, I would imagine these conversations are not Mr. Wounded's favorite and when you open up and bare your soul, there is a sting if your partner chooses inaction.

Hang in there WW.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Cre8ify,

You nailed it!


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## golfergirl (Dec 8, 2010)

Cre8ify said:


> GG, WW has been more than reasonable in her approach and her posts have depicted the ebbs and flows. IMO she is struggling with the same dance many of us struggle with. One spouse is moving toward when the other is moving away in frustration. Rather than assuming she is pounding on her husband to satiate an addiction I see more of an internal struggle to stay true to herself without exposing herself to too much emotional damage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So how is this approach working for her? Seriously - following the same approach seems to be making things worse. Just a suggestion to try backing off not out of hurt feelings and pay back, but as a break to change the dynamic. The addiction comment isn't said as she's a perverted freak demanding crazy sex, but how his rejection is taken as a poor reflection on herself leads one to believe that she's getting, love, attraction, self-esteem all rolled in to one. Sex drive is what this all comes back to - but what about the fact he is a total a$$hole, verbally abusive and acts like a single frat guy gets lost in the shuffle. His inability to show her attention and respect on any level keeps coming back to sex in her mind. Fix the rest first and the sex will come. Addiction may be wrong term, wrong focus may be better wording. We can, 'poor dear' her til cows come home, but something needs to switch the dynamic. Since ww is the one asking for help, she may have to be the bigger person and make the start.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

golfergirl said:


> So how is this approach working for her? Seriously - following the same approach seems to be making things worse. Just a suggestion to try backing off not out of hurt feelings and pay back, but as a break to change the dynamic. The addiction comment isn't said as she's a perverted freak demanding crazy sex, but how his rejection is taken as a poor reflection on herself leads one to believe that she's getting, love, attraction, self-esteem all rolled in to one. Sex drive is what this all comes back to - but what about the fact he is a total a$$hole, verbally abusive and acts like a single frat guy gets lost in the shuffle. His inability to show her attention and respect on any level keeps coming back to sex in her mind. Fix the rest first and the sex will come. Addiction may be wrong term, wrong focus may be better wording. We can, 'poor dear' her til cows come home, but something needs to switch the dynamic. Since ww is the one asking for help, she may have to be the bigger person and make the start.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think ANYONE here has even debated the fact that he's being an ahole. Some of the other posters have said it outright. Just because Cre8 and I don't cover this (I felt others addressed it quite well) 

Regardless of everything, other than the fact that he is an ahole, it's pretty clear they have different drives. If you go back through ww threads, you'll see that she's tried to change the dynamic in the past with limited results

Coming fom a similar place with my wife, whenevr I changed the dynamic, things definitely got better.............For a while. My wife would eventually slip back into her old patterns even after I called her out on it. 

We are again in one of those cycles now. I have withdrawn most of the attention she seems to enjoy and going out with my friends and work collegues and actually enjoying the company. I no longer pay her compliments, touch her in a non- sexual (and obviously sexual) way and spend most of my time going about my business.

I no longer ask her to join me in the city for shopping or meals and make no other efforts to meet her needs since she's not meeting mine.

However, to be honest, playing the game of "changing the dynamic" gets a bit stale after a while. It's not really who I am nor who I want to be long term. Many will say that's the wrong attitude but it's just that I'm ired of having to game my wife to make her want to be with me in an intimate way.

For a guy, this seemingly lack of desire for me on her part is a huge self-esteem killer and an ego crusher.

I take it that you and your spouse have never experienced this from your responses, is that right?


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## golfergirl (Dec 8, 2010)

Toffer said:


> I don't think ANYONE here has even debated the fact that he's being an ahole. Some of the other posters have said it outright. Just because Cre8 and I don't cover this (I felt others addressed it quite well)
> 
> Regardless of everything, other than the fact that he is an ahole, it's pretty clear they have different drives. If you go back through ww threads, you'll see that she's tried to change the dynamic in the past with limited results
> 
> ...


In my first marriage, yes and I was the rejected spouse. But I tried to fix the other issues to fix the sex thing. When that didn't work (it was verbally abusive relationship with some physical threats), I divorced. I didn't take the rejection as my lacking in attractiveness, sexiness etc. His loss. I'm just saying that he sex issue is a symptom of a bigger problem.). I'm just saying try fixing the bigger problem (his passive/aggressiveness, dismissal of her feelings, him choosing friends over her, him not rebuilding trust) before tackling the sex. If he validated her in others ways, being turned down for sex wouldn't crush her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

In defense of WW I've been reading her posts for quite a whole now. Not only has she put forth some serious effort but he's done questionable things that make me angry. Hence why I said I don't like him very much.


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## golfergirl (Dec 8, 2010)

Mavash. said:


> In defense of WW I've been reading her posts for quite a whole now. Not only has she put forth some serious effort but he's done questionable things that make me angry. Hence why I said I don't like him very much.


No need to be in defense of ww. Husband is an *******. Hence the question is: is she really upset that he turns her down for sex and it hurts her feelings or is she upset because he is a douche? Fix the real problem first.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

golfergirl said:


> No need to be in defense of ww. Husband is an *******. Hence the question is: is she really upset that he turns her down for sex and it hurts her feelings or is she upset because he is a douche? Fix the real problem first.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Spoken for truth. I struggled for years being the higher drive spouse. I focused on sex and ignored the part where my husband was neglecting me. Lack of sex was a symptom not the real problem.


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## golfergirl (Dec 8, 2010)

Mavash. said:


> Spoken for truth. I struggled for years being the higher drive spouse. I focused on sex and ignored the part where my husband was neglecting me. Lack of sex was a symptom not the real problem.


I read most of ww's posts if not all and part of me thinks, 'why do you even want to sleep with him?' I think he should feel very lucky to have her. But somehow he seems to feel he has the upper hand. I just bet if ww could just switch it up. Take him up on his offer to get out of house and get dolled up, not wishfully thinking she wanted him to come. If before bed. She followed her routine of dolling herself up with her bath and pretty lingerie and give him a peck on the cheek happily at night - no question, no expectations, no punishing, no sadness and cheerful, 'goodnight babe', I wonder how long it would take for him to switch gears. Friendly but no deep conversations - no invites - just enjoying life because of her (really I guess the 180), I wonder how long it would take before she would feel better about herself with a new focus and he'd want in. He holds all the power now and not just sex. Time to take power back and fake it until she feels it. As jerk as he is, he is right, ww needs new focus.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

golfergirl said:


> In my first marriage, yes and I was the rejected spouse. But I tried to fix the other issues to fix the sex thing. When that didn't work (it was verbally abusive relationship with some physical threats), I divorced. I didn't take the rejection as my lacking in attractiveness, sexiness etc. His loss. I'm just saying that he sex issue is a symptom of a bigger problem.). I'm just saying try fixing the bigger problem (his passive/aggressiveness, dismissal of her feelings, him choosing friends over her, him not rebuilding trust) before tackling the sex. If he validated her in others ways, being turned down for sex wouldn't crush her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I suspect you are right gg.

At this point, I think I did not make it clear enough earlier, it is not the frequency that is concerning me. What we have now on the whole is fine with me. Yeah there are weeks when we go Monday to Friday without sex and it is all at the weekend, but I do appreciate that things have actually improved with frequency. I did previously think he was LD but in hindsight it is clear he was never LD. It actually ebbs and flows and at times he is initiating more than the thought crosses my mind.

It is more as you have identified, the dynamic between us. I had not thought of adressing things that way around but yeah, it makes sense the way you explain it.

I used to think that keeping myself attractive and allways being "ready" or even the initator was enough, but it is not. H sees the bigger picture and it is apparent that what attracts him to me is more than that, it is also the 'everyday' me.

When we first met,I was more independent. I have mentioned in previous posts that that all decreased when the kids came along. He managed to keep up a social life, whereas mine crashed down unintentionally. I have become a homebody who much prefers staying in for a cosy evening in front of the TV than going out.

A while ago after he started being inappropriate with his co-worker, I took a long hard look at me and did some stuff to change. He never asked me to but I thought it would be a positive change for my life. I took up a sport which got me out of the house twice a week and a nice side effect was I made some new friends. Thing is I do not really have a group of girlfriends to call on for evenings out. Years ago I did but they have all moved away and have families of their own now. My sister is nearby but has not really been available much the last year and a half with a new baby. Luckily she is finding her feet again ( demanding baby who never slept) so I have been thinking of asking her to get dressed up and come out for drinks one Friday. Another thought is getting some of the girls together one weekend for a respectable girls Saturday evening out, dinner and a few drinks. The difficulty is I have changed so much and am so ingrained into liking the home life that these are going to be difficult habits to break.

Directly towards H... I have found it easier recently to disengage. Also to put my point forward without getting quite so emotional. After doing some reading I am aware more of how we discuss/argue stuff, what I do, what he does, and what does not work. I feel a lot more confident in that sense.

I still feel vulnerable and hurt though. I feel I understand more how he sees things, which helps, but I understand arguing a right fight does not help.

From here I admit I do not know what to do with the resentment I carry though.


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## golfergirl (Dec 8, 2010)

You have resentment because he doesn't get it. When you express fear, pain or vulnerability he shuts you down either with a big mouth or ignoring or pretending to not understand or by being mean. How can you grow with your trust and lose the resentment when he doesn't give back? I find when I don't feel heard, I keep harping on a subject, not to pound it in to the other person , but I'll keep saying it in other ways because they don't effing get it. His near EA shook you. You fear it got to that point because you disconnected as a couple. You keep trying to address it and he keeps poo pooing you and doesn't meet you even half way.
Other topic: splurge group is a good way to force a once a month evening out. 

You seem like a really intelligent, family oriented , attractive woman. Most men would kill for a wife like you. If your H does not appreciate that, I hope you find the strength to find someone who does.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

"You seem like a really intelligent, family oriented , attractive woman. Most men would kill for a wife like you. If your H does not appreciate that, I hope you find the strength to find someone who does."

YEP!^^^^^^^


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

:iagree:


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

^^^^ Aw thanks guys. I realize that a) I am not married to any of you and b) you are names on a screen but I cannot tell you how much it means to know that someone out there who has no reason at all to pacify me and be yes people, can at least 'get' where I am coming from.

Last night H went out and I was watching TV when he got back. I was sat thinking wow I wish he would make a move. I was dressed up nice and draped over the sofa but no. I was wearing the kind of top that would *definitely* get a remark out of him if we saw someone else wearing it out. He did say something about it earlier at dinner but it seemed to have no effect when we had sometime together.

He went out of the room and I was like, what the eff am I doing? This does not feel right. Primarily because I do it lots and it does-not-work. So why am I setting myself up for failure again?

So I gracefully retired to bed and weirdly felt better for it. Btw I have no idea what it meant but it felt a hell of a lot better than sitting there waiting for a response from him that would never come probably.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Good morning WW!

Again, maybe you should wear something like that and go out yourself? It's as if you are possibly making yourself too available for him?

Either get together with friends or just tell him you're going out. Be vague about where and with whom. Leave HIM at home wondering what it is you're doing and who may be checking out your outfit!

Your husband is a lucky man and that [email protected] doesn't even know it!


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

I suddenly realized that pressing Like on golfergirl's responses wouldn't be enough. I think she has incredible insight into the way some men can't get past having very sensitive male egos, and let it dissolve into a convoluted power struggle. 

I'll let it speak for itself that my belief is that a mature man in a relationship with a very giving woman should be well beyond such a state, but I know that you are really looking for advice and solutions, so I'll try to keep the mental high fives to Mavash to myself.

For me, I sometimes felt that I was in a position that was very different, yet there are parallels. Before my wife found recovery from her chronic depression, she would often admit that she had terrible doubts about her worthiness to be loved, and she would almost look for justifications in ways that she even admitted to be extreme, at times. But for me, I just sensed some sort of underlying expectation at all times, as if she were always judging me to see if I cared enough for her feelings when she was going through a depressive cycle. In our case, it was extreme, and I'll reinforce my belief that you handle your husband's issues much better than many could. It comes from a generous heart for him, I believe. But when men sense that perception of underlying expectation, whether it is justified or not, our male ego can often go into defense mode. We can become hyper-sensitive ourselves. Immature guys can behave very hurtful in such situations. When I was younger, and felt that I was trying so hard, to sense her watching my facial expressions and such was so hurtful.

Again, you have every right to want to feel needed, desired, and loved by your husband. But he is the one who may have turned that into a gigantic bundle of nerves by being intimidated by what is really a fair expectation. Just remember that to him, that expectation is like a lingering feeling that an immature man can transfer inwardly, and sometimes he can even "perceive" it when it isn't there. I don't know if occasionally setting the tone for your time together may help to lower this defensiveness. Sometimes, maybe you can try to tell him before-hand, even in a light-heartd way, that you need some time with him for something that isn't necessarily sexual. Might be surprised that if he realizes that you don't "want" sex, he might try to get you to change your mind.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Halien well said. When I got to the core of my husbands issues I was surprised to find out how low his self esteem was. When I called him neglectful he wasn't doing it on purpose it was his own demons he was battling. It made him act in ways that made no sense. Once I got him to open up about what was really in his head then and only then did things get better.

Yes I had a big part in our dynamic I can see that now but so did he. My husband hid his true self from me out of fear. He did what I think WW husband is doing. If he kept me distracted enough I wouldn't find out what was really going on. It almost worked too. Lol.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Thanks guys. I haven't much time to go into detail right now but I will throw out a few thoughts...

Too available? Definitely. This is something I have battled with more recently as I really had difficulty getting my head around it. I allways thought it was *good* to be sexually open and available to your husband. In this case, not. I think it puts more pressure on him and leaves me more open to feeling rejected. I do not think this is quite as simple as I explain here simply because I know there cannot be two states of sexual being, as in available and closed off. I believe there are in between, like a sliding scale. I do not know if I am explaining it very well, but I guess it is like turning up naked in the living room at one end, then a blanket "no never ever" at the other. Of course there are places to be inbetween but i just have not figured out where I need to be yet.

H has elaborated a little in the past about his feelings over this. He has said he feels I expect him to be ready to go whenever I want and that even a raincheck worries him because of it making me upset. Also that I expect a lot from him, for him to deliver in other areas and that what I notice is when he fails rather than when he makes the effort.

Mixed feelings on this. I hold my hands up to getting upset about a raincheck situation and I take responsibility for that. It is hard t manage my upset as I take it as a rejection. Having rethought it, given he does follow through with his promise then this is OK.

I also admit I am guilty of calling him out on when he fails. Trouble is I *do* notice when he makes efforts, so maybe I should show more appreciation than I do. I do get a sense that a lot of the time, I am supposed to make a big fuss over him doing something and that he feels because he has done whatever, he does not have to bother for a while, days, weeks, etc. *That* is what bothers me. He does not hear this or, I think understand what I mean, and so just thinks I am eager to criticize and waiting for him to fall down. I am not, and I love his heartfelt efforts: I just find it hard to believe he will continue.

Halien I understand completely the suggestion for non sexual time. I like the idea in principle, though at this point I suspect he would perceive this as me playing games. I would put money on him thinking I was 'testing' him to see if he would show he loves me or finds me attractive by wanting to put his hands on me.

He has said he has low self esteem. I do not know in honesty. I do believe he has mastered, unintentionally, having the upper hand. I am *not* saying this is his fault because I completely recognize how I have fed into thi and the part I play. At the moment I am working to pull away from this and stop being so affected by him. It is really difficult because I perceive myself as coming across as a little cold and distant which is not really my intention but I have not yet worked out how to be warm but to step away from being so codependent. However I view it as a very important thing I need to do so I am keeping at it.

The other thing I have realized which I have briefly touched upon previously, is that he only really shows affection when he is in the mood. He does not like me saying this but even he has commented on how we can spend an entire evening in the same room yet not touch. He has said it in a jokey way like it does not bother him but it does bother me. I do not initiate non sexual affection much because he shrugs it off a lot. I do not want to feel hurt in this way either so I do not pursue it either by initiating or discussing it because it is just another awkward topic that he will perceive as me attacking him.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Any thoughts on how I handled this?

Yesterday H got home. Dinner was not ready (was behind, my fault), and the kids were fighting and had been since school finished. He was tired and so was I. There was a little snapping, which before I would have taken personally but realized we were both tired and lashing out so left it.

H got a new phone the other day and I was trying to chat a little to lighten the mood but it was clear he was engrossed in his phone so I left him to it.

Later the kids were in bed and he joined me on the sofa. He was clearly tired, I was feeling a little better. I tried again to make smalltalk with him, he gave me short answers or nods. I thought just leave him to it, he is not in a talking mood, so I went upstairs. I was in a pretty melancholy mood: I understood he was tired which of course is fine, but I had this overwhelming feeling of feeling really lonely. I kicked myself and said he is not here for the sole purpose of entertaining me, he can have an off day, it is not his fault. I had a feeling of if this was his night to meet his friend for beers, he would be making an effort, going out and chatting, but I felt that was a bad road of thought to go down so didn't. I went and lay down on the bed and fell asleep.

He came to bed around 1:30am, snuggled up, which was nice as he never does that in bed. He then decided he was in the mood, so made some moves, but I was pretty pissed that he hardly acknowledged me earlier yet wanted to get down to it when he felt like it. I told him, look, you pretty much ignored me this evening, hardly said a word to me and now you want to do stuff, well I just cannot function like that.

He said, you know I was tired, I fell asleep on the bed at kids' bedtime. I said I know and that was it. He rolled away and left me.

I did not want to be mean or rude but it really annoys me how he does this though I am not sure if I handled it right?


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

It's sad that he handled the evening as he did, because you made some very tough decisions to take the high road, and it appears that if he noticed, it was too late. I don't know how you could've realistically responded differently. When I talked about communicating your intentions, when the situation "fits", there may have been ways to let him know that you were making the decision to cut him some (largely undeserved) slack throughout the night, but a lot of it depends upon personality as to whether it can work.

For instance, when he was engrossed in his phone, I couldn't help but remember a time when my wife seemed frustrated with my time on my new phone, but she sat beside me and began to ask silly questions about it, obviously very deliberately "pretending" to be insterested, but asking rediculous questions. It cut the ice for us, because she let me have time in between her sitting down to ask another sily question, but also helped to show that she was deliberately letting me sacrifice our normal together time for something else. Sometimes, it takes only a minimal observation to signal this validation, but you are letting him know that you are okay with his actions. Otherwise, I couldn't help but wonder if a part of him was suspecting the worst from your feelings in the situation you described.

For many men, though, just the fact that you are trying so hard to set aside hurt to improve the relationship means so much, and can be enough to really turn the corner. I don't know if it is even possible to directly let him know in a way that conveys the sacrifices you are making, but trying small gestures at times like this that otherwise normally signal approval from you could possibly have more impact than you would guess.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Halien, this is very much an internal battle, a work in progress on the inside.I have not yet felt confident enough to state what I am doing but even during this past week I have noticed him dialing in on me behaving differently but not saying anything. I do not want to come across as "woe is me, I am so hard done to that I am being the martyr" which is why I have not brought up what I am doing. These are genuine changes and me processing my thoughts differently.

I am aware I at times come across may be a little cold but I figure once I get more comfortable with being less reactive, I will feel a lot easier.

Another thing I will throw in is that I do feel lately less attracted to him. It is hard when you feel like you are the maid and the nanny and pretty much a blow up doll to him. I can see a complicated tangle of past and present emotions in this, and a lot of irony. I feel ultimately a need to feel valued above anything. I do feel he is fond of me, I acknowledge his gestures. I do not feel, well, appreciated, recognized and that he places a high significance on me in his life.

I know he has certain expectations by way of my behavior. He does not allways verbalize it but he has done in the past. I have also spent a long time trying to be OK with some of his behavior, be cool with stuff if you like, when I should have simply been brief and to the point. He has had a way of convincing himself that I am OK with stuff. It is clearly an avoidance tactic, such as I bring up an issue, we about it, changes are arranged, they do not happen, I bring it up again, rinse and repeat until I get fed up and leave it well alone.

I figure he knows how I feel and leave him to act in his own time. He sees and hears me not adressing the issue any more and figures I am done and OK with the status quo.

Your last paragraph Halien I have been thinking about but not sure how I would put it into practise.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

walkingwounded said:


> Halien, this is very much an internal battle, a work in progress on the inside.I have not yet felt confident enough to state what I am doing but even during this past week I have noticed him dialing in on me behaving differently but not saying anything. I do not want to come across as "woe is me, I am so hard done to that I am being the martyr." These are genuine changes and me processing my thoughts differently.


When I was where you are it took 18-24 months before my genuine changes began to 'stick' and my marriage began to get better.

It takes time to change old dynamics.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> When I was where you are it took 18-24 months before my genuine changes began to 'stick' and my marriage began to get better.
> 
> It takes time to change old dynamics.


Was it difficult? Were there any noticeable times when you found yourself reverting back to old habits, or areas you had particular difficulty with?

Also, how did your H respond, both initially and over the course of your journey? Did he have any negative responses? Did he test you at all?

I think some habits are the "old" me, before I even met H, I am sure a lot of this stuff I have developed since being with H. In that sense I feel positive that I can get back to such habits. A lot though I think is completely reframing how I view things, and how I handle things. I feel quite positive, I'm just not sure how H will react.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Things feel differently allready. I know it is only early days but may be rather than the actual dynamics changing, it is more my feelings of confidence around how I am handling things.

My initial thoughts are that things will be better simply because I am not expending so much emotional energy trying to please him and make him think how great I am. I admit, I do not really know how to balance meeting his needs with making constant efforts to please him, the latter being more a plea for approval I guess than relaxing and enjoying our marriage.

I have this last two weeks done a few things a little out of the ordinary and felt better for it. Nothing crazy you understand! One was I went out shopping at the weekend. Usually I would wait for him to get up and work around his timeframe. I decided to not wait around for him for hours and went myself when I wanted.

Yesterday I went out with a friend who I haven't seen for a long time. I could have invited H but chose not to. Side benefit is that H had some time with the kids and to himself, the latter being something he says he does not often get.

I can see a more open and exciting life. I know I sound cheesy but I feel so much more positive than a few weeks ago!


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

walkingwounded said:


> My initial thoughts are that things will be better simply because I am not expending so much emotional energy trying to please him and make him think how great I am. I admit, I do not really know how to balance meeting his needs with making constant efforts to please him, the latter being more a plea for approval I guess than relaxing and enjoying our marriage.


Oh girl when I was where you are I STOPPED meeting his needs and I quit trying to please him. I mean think about it he wasn't lifting a finger to do ANYTHING for me so why would I do anything for him?

I took ALL my energy and put it into pleasing myself and thought to hell with him. He doesn't want me, doesn't desire me, isn't into me, etc. It wasn't bad enough for me to divorce him over but I was sure done kissing his ass trying to get attention. KWIM?

I'm past this now obviously so I'm back meeting his needs but he puts forth SERIOUS effort to meet mine now. I no longer put more into the relationship than he does.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

walkingwounded said:


> Was it difficult? Were there any noticeable times when you found yourself reverting back to old habits, or areas you had particular difficulty with?
> 
> Also, how did your H respond, both initially and over the course of your journey? Did he have any negative responses? Did he test you at all?


Yes it was difficult. When I felt like reverting back to old habits I came to TAM or talked to a trusted friend.

It took me a while to get the hang of this which is why I think it took 2 years. It was a process for me to detach and let him go. I needed to quit looking to him to be there for me when he obviously wasn't. I needed to learn how to meet my own needs regardless of what he did or didn't do. I had to learn to take the focus off of him and put it back on me.

Of course he had negative responses...we laugh about it today. He didn't like it. He took me for granted and didn't like it when I turned the tables on him and started building a life that didn't involve him in it.

And yes he tested me early and often. He still does on occasion but I pass them all now with flying colors. I'm so onto him now. LOL


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Sounds good Mavash!

One thing I am noticing is that when I detach from his comments which are *obviously* designed to draw me in, wind me up and get a reaction, he reacts like I have replied exactly like I used to. It is weird. The reaction he gives is not actually related to the response I gave, but to the one he appears to *think* I gave. It kept happening last night. He would say something, seem to expect an annoyed, irritated response, I would reply coolly or defuse whatever he said with something witty, and he would react like I had gotten irritated. It started to annoy me after a while.

Another thing is he has arranged for the kids to be looked after this weekend so we can have some grown up time. I only asked him once and he did it fine, came back to me and told me. Usually I would have to keep reminding him. Don't know if I am looking for things but it did strike me. Will see how it continues.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

> One thing I am noticing is that when I detach from his comments which are *obviously* designed to draw me in, wind me up and get a reaction, he reacts like I have replied exactly like I used to. It is weird. The reaction he gives is not actually related to the response I gave, but to the one he appears to *think* I gave. It kept happening last night. He would say something, seem to expect an annoyed, irritated response, I would reply coolly or defuse whatever he said with something witty, and he would react like I had gotten irritated. It started to annoy me after a while.


THIS is why it takes time to break old dynamics. YES YES YES I dealt with this too. I still do now to some extent but it's a lot better. My husband expected me to be annoyed and so he acted like I was even when I wasn't. One time we were having a calm discussion over money and I noticed that he had shut down. At this point we were doing better so I asked him about it. He said "you are shooting me down". WTH! I wasn't....I swear....I was just telling him my ideas calmly.

I was able to touch him and reassure him that I in fact wanted to hear what he thought and that I valued his opinion. That night I was able to reach him and I got him to see me as the NEW me not the old angry me. 

I do get annoyed when I see him do this. It's hard. I think now he looks at me not only as the old me but as his parents as well. His dad was an angry, controlling type man so I'm living that down as well. I have to remind him I've changed and I'm NOT his dad.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

walkingwounded said:


> Another thing is he has arranged for the kids to be looked after this weekend so we can have some grown up time. I only asked him once and he did it fine, came back to me and told me. Usually I would have to keep reminding him. Don't know if I am looking for things but it did strike me. Will see how it continues.


I do the same thing now. I ask for what I want ONCE and either he does it or he doesn't. I no longer harp, remind or whine. When he does what I want I thank him and am grateful.

We train people how to treat us.


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## golfergirl (Dec 8, 2010)

Mavash. said:


> I do the same thing now. I ask for what I want ONCE and either he does it or he doesn't. I no longer harp, remind or whine. When he does what I want I thank him and am grateful.
> 
> We train people how to treat us.


Isn't it nice to worry about you and your feelings and wants for a change instead of wondering how her perceives this and that? You deserve attention too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

We had a nice child free Saturday evening. Things were cosy and he said about going upstairs. He has a habit of saying it really crudely or stupidly which he knows is a real turn off for me. I said don't say that, if you said something like "let's go upstairs and make love" or similar that would be great!

He rolled his eyes. Then asked why do *I* never say anything like that? Why don't I say sexy stuff? That I've never done anything like that.

Truth is, dirty talking ( which was what he meant) isn't something I have allways been comfortable with. When he has asked me, in the bedroom, I have obliged for him. I feel awkward doing it. Which he knows. I don't mind trying when we are in the middle of sex, that is fine.

But I was pretty p!ssed that I have tried to hammer home to him that how he has behaved in the past with turning me down is going to take a lot to get over. It is going to be a while before I have the confidence to even *think* about trying something like that. I just cannot understand how he expects me to go from bruised esteem from his rejection to initiating by talking dirty without any empathy for how I feel and tenderness inbetween. All he has given in tha department is a "ask me for sex and I won't turn you down."


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

> Things were cosy and he said about going upstairs. He has a habit of saying it really crudely or stupidly which he knows is a real turn off for me. I said don't say that, if you said something like "let's go upstairs and make love" or similar that would be great!


Oh hun I cringed reading this. I did the same thing to my husband and what happened was the sex all but stopped. Is that really what you want? These days I'm so over it. I don't care 'how' he initiates as long as he does. And yes sometimes he says it's crudely and stupidly. I just giggle now and get naked. What does it matter?

Side note: correcting men will backfire every single time. I promise you. You are well within your right to say no to the request that he didn't do to your liking but don't correct him unless he asks why.



> He rolled his eyes. Then asked why do *I* never say anything like that? Why don't I say sexy stuff? That I've never done anything like that.


See you put him down so he was forced to fire back at you. 



> Truth is, dirty talking ( which was what he meant) isn't something I have allways been comfortable with. When he has asked me, in the bedroom, I have obliged for him. I feel awkward doing it. Which he knows. I don't mind trying when we are in the middle of sex, that is fine.


Maybe it's hard for him to ask to 'make love' and it feels awkward to him to him too. My husband would rather talk dirty too.



> But I was pretty p!ssed that I have tried to hammer home to him that how he has behaved in the past with turning me down is going to take a lot to get over. It is going to be a while before I have the confidence to even *think* about trying something like that. I just cannot understand how he expects me to go from bruised esteem from his rejection to initiating by talking dirty without any empathy for how I feel and tenderness inbetween. All he has given in tha department is a "ask me for sex and I won't turn you down."


And now we get to the core of the problem. Resentment. Until you can let this go it's going to be hard. My husband has yet to fully understand how hard all this was on me but I'm over that too. We're having sex now and I've fixed the problem. I've chosen to move forward and to stop being pissed over things he did in the past because I know I'm not perfect either. I've made plenty of mistakes same as him. KWIM?


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

I can tell you what the problem is with the way he asks. It goes back to when he was constantly rejecting me. He of course knew how I felt. For some reason quite frequently when *he* initiated, it was phrased around what *I* could do for him. It was like rubbing salt in the wound. Denying me sex then effectively saying we *could* be intimate but it was what *I* could do for him. Not about "us." So it isn't so much the actual words he is saying, but what he means, if that makes sense?

I think you have some good points Mavash which I have been thinking about.

What I would like to say is I feel that in that scenario he was just showing no empathy at all. May be he never will, I do not know. Resentment is hard... I feel in a way that the person who did the hurting is in a way being absolved of any guilt by the other spouse moving on. Don't get me wrong, I completely understand *why* it is important to move on and not get stuck in the swamp of resentment. I mean I do not want to live with it hanging over me and waiting for him to "get it" before I can move on.

But I am human, I would be lying if a part of me hadn't thought, wow that was a *perfect* opportunity for him to open up and apologize and try and see it even if he cannot know how it feels. But he didn't. And yes that makes me sad. And I wonder at times if he ever thinks about it. My guess is no. But then I see this as a passage of time and reflection. Being on a journey. I know I won't feel like that forever.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

It took me 2 years and a HUGE aha moment for my husband to get an apology out of him.

Before then it wasn't that he didn't care it was that he just didn't get it. His perspective about what happened and mine were polar opposites. In his mind he didn't feel he had anything to apologize for because he flat out couldn't see the pain he was causing me. He was so caught up in his own head, his own life to even notice me.

The problem wasn't what I thought it was. Not.Even.Close.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

What was his aha moment? And what did you think the problem was and what was it really?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

walkingwounded said:


> What was his aha moment? And what did you think the problem was and what was it really?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We had to be separated for months due to work. This forced us to communicate in other ways besides sex. During that time he says something just 'clicked' and he finally understood what I'd been trying to tell him. And it started with me being very open and vulnerable about my feelings. No games, no hints, no resentment, no anger, lots of tears on my part...he just got it. It was ugly though. I cried everyday for 3 weeks - I'm still kinda traumatized by what we went through as a couple. 

What was the real problem? It was lots of things.

His childhood, his sexual shame, my childhood, neither of us knew how to be intimate, my looks or lack thereof (I let myself go), my behavior (was snippy, critical and argumentative), he was scared of me, my depression, he hid his true self from me because he feared my judgement, his low self esteem....I could go on but you get the idea.

I'm not even out of the woods yet with him. I've had lots of therapy and he hasn't. If I get too close he pulls back. If he gets stressed he pulls back. It's his habit to 'check out' when life gets to be too much for him regardless the source. We've just gotten to the point where I can call him on it and gently reel him back in. He's aware of his behavior but is unable to stop it.


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## Monet19 (Jan 19, 2013)

At least now I know I'm not the only one.

I feel for you walkingwounded, I'm in the exact same boat. I also have a high sex drive and our sex life is run by his libido. I'm lucky if I have sex once a week...

I would do it 3 times a day if I could. That in its self, the fact that you husband ignores your sexual needs and only makes you cater to his is so demoralizing for you. I know it makes me feel
Less than the woman I know I am and like a prisoner.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Monet19 said:


> At least now I know I'm not the only one.
> 
> I feel for you walkingwounded, I'm in the exact same boat. I also have a high sex drive and our sex life is run by his libido. I'm lucky if I have sex once a week...
> 
> ...


It has been hard but recently I have been feeling better. As you may have read I have been working on me and adjusting the lens through which I see things. So the actual events have not changed so much but how I view them has. And it does make a difference. I am not where I need to be yet but I feel a lot more positive about being able to handle it all.




Mavash. said:


> We had to be separated for months due to work. This forced us to communicate in other ways besides sex. During that time he says something just 'clicked' and he finally understood what I'd been trying to tell him. And it started with me being very open and vulnerable about my feelings. No games, no hints, no resentment, no anger, lots of tears on my part...he just got it. It was ugly though. I cried everyday for 3 weeks - I'm still kinda traumatized by what we went through as a couple.
> 
> What was the real problem? It was lots of things.
> 
> ...


Wow that is quite a story! Clearly the space helped him to get it, may be that was what he needed to be "able" to get it.

I don't know what it would take for H to get it. Like I say I don't want to sit waiting putting everything on hold for that moment. Much as I would like to say not, I do still feel resentment. But I am working on that.

I noted that similar to me, you mentioned your behavior and him fearing your judgement. I think there is a part of that going on with us too. H says often he is worried to say what he thinks because of my emotional reactions. I find this *super* difficult. I know he is right. It is very hard not to react. I am not like this all the time and am conscious of acting rather than reacting. But some things he tells me, I think, what on EARTH were you thinking, how can you do that knowing it would hurt me? Or how can you do that and not REMEMBER that would hurt me ( yes, sounds crazy.) What I try to do now is take what he tells me and process it for a while *then* deal with it. Works better for me.

I think your story Mavash shows that things *can* get better. That things are in a perpetual state of improvement.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Things continue to move and shift. I can feel the dynamic between us changing. It is hard to explain it exactly but there is movement.

I had been handling and responding differently to before. I like to go off and digest stuff rather than reacting. I do not know if this will be a long term change, if I am honest it gives me time to step back and think, hang on, what is actually going on right now, was my initial reaction right, or have I missed something? How do I feel and why is that? Though this has changed a little over the last few days...

H has let out a couple of things that have proven food for thought.

One was the way he acted yesterday. I was feeling sick (have a thread here about this) and asked him to stay home to help out. His total help equated to getting the kids ready then going to work for the day. His response last night? "Well you managed to get through the day so you weren't *that* ill." To him I am not actually ill I think, unless I get carted away in an ambulance, and then I think he would be phoning up to check before he could confirm with himself that I was genuinely sick.

The other was a comment he made. Long story to contextualize but the gist of it was he said something that was like a kind of AHA moment. It actually hit me like a freight train, it was that powerfull. He was talking about the difference between men and women in the context of parenting babies, a particular issue because we have struggled heavily since having children with him sleeping in rather than getting up and helping out. He said he thought men and women are wired differently, that men are more selfish, and women are really "nice." And that the sleeping in that has caused so many arguments between us yet he continued to do? Referring to himself and his best friend, who does the same, he said men do it because they can "get away with it."

It was like him verbalizing precisely how he views the dynamic between us. He behaves as he wishes and knows that things will go on anyway so it really does not matter if he makes me angry. It struck hard with a lot of his behavior and if I am honest has been a major turning point in my attitude over the last couple of days.

I have become quite nonchalant in my attitude. I have been extremely blunt in saying what I think, and outwardly reflective on where I have gone wrong based on what H said about getting away with stuff. I can see H is treading carefully here but I am not sure why... I haven't yet been able to understand what he makes of this recent change. I can tentatively suggest that taking away my implicit "acceptance" of his past behaviors by staying with him has made him question himself and his behavior and his morals.

Will see where this goes...


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## Monet19 (Jan 19, 2013)

Mavash. said:


> I'm not even out of the woods yet with him. I've had lots of therapy and he hasn't. If I get too close he pulls back. If he gets stressed he pulls back. It's his habit to 'check out' when life gets to be too much for him regardless the source. We've just gotten to the point where I can call him on it and gently reel him back in. He's aware of his behavior but is unable to stop it.


Interesting. My H is the same way. I've been working on me a lot lately and still point out where and when I am not happy with certain things he does or doesn't do, but I've had to change my tactics and how I approach him about it. I honestly don't believe in just letting them 'fly' because then he'll never know whether I'm happy or not about something. We had our first serious conversation in a long time two nights ago, it was amazing lol, we didn't even argue. I thanked him for opening up and communicating with me, he said it was nice not to argue. I jokingly said "we'll have to do that every day!" he had a terrified look on his face, so I told him "only joking, don't worry, once a week at most  " Finding a way to communicate is the key, but it's not easy with certain men! We even had sex last night for the first time in 2 weeks, so things are looking up! 

I have had to do some soul searching in order to figure out which way to approach him that won't make him retreat to his shell like a turtle


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Monet19 said:


> Interesting. My H is the same way. I've been working on me a lot lately and still point out where and when I am not happy with certain things he does or doesn't do, but I've had to change my tactics and how I approach him about it. I honestly don't believe in just letting them 'fly' because then he'll never know whether I'm happy or not about something. We had our first serious conversation in a long time two nights ago, it was amazing lol, we didn't even argue. I thanked him for opening up and communicating with me, he said it was nice not to argue. I jokingly said "we'll have to do that every day!" he had a terrified look on his face, so I told him "only joking, don't worry, once a week at most  " Finding a way to communicate is the key, but it's not easy with certain men! We even had sex last night for the first time in 2 weeks, so things are looking up!
> 
> I have had to do some soul searching in order to figure out which way to approach him that won't make him retreat to his shell like a turtle


I think you touch on something very important. I think it is vital to create an environment where your spouse feels it is "safe" to open up with you. I cannot profess to be an expert on this yet but I am trying hard to listen and express that I hear what he is saying, even if I cannot know how he feels or I cannot relate. To show I respect what he is saying I guess.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Yesterday was weird. We had a blow out, it was pretty messy. It was not angry though. A lot of things were said.

On his part, he said he feels I am pretty miserable to be around. This hit me really hard because I have been trying to be more upbeat around him. He said I have a temper and that I do not realize it. The sad thing is I *do*. I never used to be like that but recently I have blown up at crazy little things and I can say with honesty that it is because of how strained things have been with H. I need to get a handle on that.

I told him that I simply do not feel loved or valued by him and I no longer understand what purpose I have in his life except as a convenience to clean the house and look after the kids and someone to run errands for him.

He took this quite quietly. After a while he said that he does love me very much, and he does not know why he cannot show me. He likened it to what I said in an earlier post about how I find it difficult to talk dirty... he said he finds it difficult to be loving ( that wasn't exactly how he phrased it but was what I got from it.) He claims he actually talks a lot and very positively about me when he is away from me, like at work and when out with friends... He was quite genuine about it which puzzles me even more as to why he can find it so easy to talk me up to others but act around me like he really wishes I was not there.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

> On his part, he said he feels I am pretty miserable to be around. This hit me really hard because I have been trying to be more upbeat around him.


The problem is at the moment you are kinda faking it and he can FEEL it. Your words may be upbeat but your body says you're unhappy.



> He said I have a temper and that I do not realize it. The sad thing is I *do*. I never used to be like that but recently I have blown up at crazy little things and I can say with honesty that it is because of how strained things have been with H. I need to get a handle on that.


Been there done that and this is HARD to do. I could write a book on how I fixed this but at the core is learning how to take care of my own needs and to look for the best in my husband.



> After a while he said that he does love me very much, and he does not know why he cannot show me.


I know why he can't. He's scared of your angry side. Plus it's hard to show love to someone you know is angry with you. I know I know vicious cycle if he showed more love you wouldn't be angry but he can't show love because you're angry. Sucks doesn't it?


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## Monet19 (Jan 19, 2013)

walkingwounded said:


> I think you touch on something very important. I think it is vital to create an environment where your spouse feels it is "safe" to open up with you. I cannot profess to be an expert on this yet but I am trying hard to listen and express that I hear what he is saying, even if I cannot know how he feels or I cannot relate. To show I respect what he is saying I guess.


Exactly. It's a work in progress and a learning process for me also. We do hear what they are saying, and understand, we must remember to be vocal about it I think, let them know we understand " I understand where you are coming from" or " You have a point " or "you are right" (they love that one) then, they are more receptive to hearing what we have to say. Like soothing a child i guess, it has the same effect on our men though I do find children are easier to talk too! 

I've noticed that my H is happier when everything is simple. So if I approach an issue in a 'simple' way, he tends to be more receptive. I actually have to give it a little thought before I approach him on how exactly I'm going to raise the issue and how I will keep it simple and not overwhelm him to prevent withdrawal. I find it hard to stop once he begins to be receptive, but I think that is the key, to learn to let him be when I've achieved a little rather than try and solve everything in one discussion, which would be my preference. I get the feeling that if we go on and on, even if we know we are making sense, they begin to hear what we say as "blahblahblahblah" LOL 

Another thing I think helps, and this is also very hard to do, is for us to remember to be happy without them. I find I put way too much importance on how he sees me or feels about me and what he does or doesn't do, which in turn means I neglect to take care of who I am and what I need to be happy. Does this make sense? I find that when I've focused on making myself happy during the day rather than worry about I'd like for him to understand this or that, he senses I am not so reliant on him. Essentially I'm giving him more space. Men need that, they hate to feel pressured. He then tends to make more of an effort to be closer in small subtle ways. So for a H who is not used to showing affection, we would need to keep an eye out for the little things he does or says at first and not expect the instantaneous obvious show of affection we would actually like and crave from them.

The more I harass him over an issue, the worse it is for me. For example, I felt we were not making love often enough, I needed much more intimacy, I feel closer to him when I do. The more I told him so, the less sex we'd have. When I 'gave up' in my mind, though I was sad about it, without realizing it, I gave him space, and he then wanted to be closer to me and more intimate. I've learnt there is much less confrontation if we take a step back, find a way to not worry about it so much and ignore the issue for a while, especially if we've already expressed to our H what bother's us. He knows. Sometimes, they need time to process it. Also they need time to understand that whether or not they choose to resolve the issue, we will go on and be happy with ourselves. They can join us - or not.


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## Monet19 (Jan 19, 2013)

I can't believe how much your H reminds me of mine!

My H also accuses me of of the same things your H does, he also has called me names in the past. And just like you, I've had posters respond by saying "I don't like your husband" or "your husband is not nice" Lol. 

Truth is we are married to them because there are many things we love about our husbands. We have two options: work out our differences or leave. My H is a good man, he has trouble communicating and expressing his feelings. He also looses his temper sometimes, he never lays a hand on me but he has called me names. He had a terrible childhood, his mother killed herself when he was 16 and his father was never there for him, he grew up with 5 brothers and sisters and it was chaos when their mother died, they had to take care of themselves. Before she committed suicide, she was emotionally unstable for many years, so you can imagine the family environment. His father would withdraw and escape to work. Because of his childhood, I believe he just doesn't know how to encourage a healthy family environment. I am a feisty type of woman and have no problem standing up to him, which in turn backfires on me, both of us actually. Knowing I am more intuitive than he is, means I am much better equipped to change my approaches and how we communicate than he is. I suppose in a way, I've discovered a new found strength.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> The problem is at the moment you are kinda faking it and he can FEEL it. Your words may be upbeat but your body says you're unhappy.


Quite possibly. One thing I said yesterday was that when I make lighthearted comments to him, about how I am "awesome/great/ a fantastic wife", I realized I wasn't as I thought, saying those things because I believed them about me but in a bizarre way "reminding" him to feel like that about me. I have no doubt that many of those times did not come off as lighthearted but tinged with sadness actually.



> Been there done that and this is HARD to do. I could write a book on how I fixed this but at the core is learning how to take care of my own needs and to look for the best in my husband.


I feel bad admitting that. It has never been a problem with me before. Now it is like something small can seem off the scale massive, when in fact I step back and realize my frustration is not about what is going on in front of me but to do with my marriage. 



> I know why he can't. He's scared of your angry side. Plus it's hard to show love to someone you know is angry with you. I know I know vicious cycle if he showed more love you wouldn't be angry but he can't show love because you're angry. Sucks doesn't it?


Have been thinking about this. I cannot say for sure this is the reason but it sure does bear thinking about. I can say with certainty he feels my disapproval even when I do not inwardly realize that is what I am projecting outwardly. I know he feel like a failure at all "this." But I said yesterday I feel stuck... I go back to how I was and that was the "me" he walked all over and started being interested in other women with... But the "me" now I *know* is not attractive on an emotional level.

He also touched upon the sexual side, asking *what* is he supposed to be attracted to, interested in, what is supposed to get him going if I will not do anything to initiate, try anything to surprise him? How is he supposed to be attracted?

I *totally* get it, yet that ^^^ was his defense when I brought up how it would soon be a year since we first had issues with me initiating and he had not done much to rebuild the damage that was done. In his eyes rebuilding the damage involves essentially me going back to how I was, initiating, planning surprises, and making efforts for us, and him happily reciprocating which will then show me that he *is* indeed attracted to me.

I have given him solid examples of what I need from him, all of which he has attempted for a week or two then stopped. This is a typical pattern for us. What I am NOW hearing is essentially I need to forget it all and make all the effort so things can be how we both want them. 

I just cannot digest this at the moment.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

> One thing I said yesterday was that when I make lighthearted comments to him, about how I am "awesome/great/ a fantastic wife", I realized I wasn't as I thought, saying those things because I believed them about me but in a bizarre way "reminding" him to feel like that about me. I have no doubt that many of those times did not come off as lighthearted but tinged with sadness actually.


I never had any luck with this method either. Totally get it.



> I feel bad admitting that. It has never been a problem with me before. Now it is like something small can seem off the scale massive, when in fact I step back and realize my frustration is not about what is going on in front of me but to do with my marriage.


Are you taking care of yourself? I mean REALLY taking care of yourself?



> I can say with certainty he feels my disapproval even when I do not inwardly realize that is what I am projecting outwardly. I know he feel like a failure at all "this." But I said yesterday I feel stuck... I go back to how I was and that was the "me" he walked all over and started being interested in other women with... But the "me" now I *know* is not attractive on an emotional level.


Two separate problems. On this I don't like your husband. It was bad the way he treated you and bad how he responded.

If you become attractive do it for you not for him. I failed at that too. 



> He also touched upon the sexual side, asking *what* is he supposed to be attracted to, interested in, what is supposed to get him going if I will not do anything to initiate, try anything to surprise him? How is he supposed to be attracted?


Sounds like a cop out to me. He's yet to take ownership of why you quit doing these things in the first place. Attraction and a marriage is a two way street. At the moment he's not holding up his end.



> I have given him solid examples of what I need from him, all of which he has attempted for a week or two then stopped.


It's not important to him and/or he doesn't want to. Stop talking - its pointless.



> What I am NOW hearing is essentially I need to forget it all and make all the effort so things can be how we both want them.


What effort is HE willing to make? Sorry not buying this AT ALL!


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## Kari (Feb 17, 2012)

walkingwounded said:


> He also touched upon the sexual side, asking *what* is he supposed to be attracted to, interested in, what is supposed to get him going if I will not do anything to initiate, try anything to surprise him? How is he supposed to be attracted?
> 
> I *totally* get it, yet that ^^^ was his defense when I brought up how it would soon be a year since we first had issues with me initiating and he had not done much to rebuild the damage that was done. In his eyes rebuilding the damage involves essentially me going back to how I was, initiating, planning surprises, and making efforts for us, and him happily reciprocating which will then show me that he *is* indeed attracted to me.


I'm not buying this either. He needs to get himself going. He needs to seduce you, plan surprises for you, etc.. You made most of the effort for so long, and now it is HIS turn.

If you started trying to seduce him and planning surprises for him, he'd just start turning you down. Don't do it! Why should you have to make this effort, and him just reciprocate, especially when he's turned you down so often in the past? Didn't he used to tell you that you initiated too often? I think if you start initiating, you are setting yourself up for a fall (actually he is setting you up).

If he is bored, HE should suggest new and interesting things to do, sexual and otherwise. It is up to him to be creative, not rely on you for all the creativity. As they say, "Only the boring are bored" (at least this is true when they've got a willing partner like you).

I still think his testosterone is low and he's trying to turn around the issue to make his low desire your fault. Maybe your current anger/crabbiness is your fault and making the problem worse, but his desire problem existed for a long time, when you were patient and initiating often. Now your resentment has built up and that's why you get angry more easily.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Thanks Mavash and kari. Again lots to think about.

Thing is I am not about to start initiating again. Right now I do not have it in me. I think about it still, and wonder, is this a good time to do it? but the doubt there based on his previous actions is enough to stop me.

I think that it is beginning to dawn on him what exactly me not initiating means to our relationship. I do not think he is "there" yet to get it. I do not know if steadfastly refusing to initiate untill he starts to work on things is the way to go. For now I will continue not initiating, but also working on me. At some point I will reassess and see how that is working.

After reading both of your comments and thinking what he said about what do I have that would attract him, I have been thinking, what does *he* have that makes me want to be close to him? What is he bringing to the table? I am gonna be frank and say I do not do half of the things I used to. I totally admit that, and he has called me on it. Fully conscious decision on my part as I felt giving that much was not benefitting our dynamic any. Of course he is pretty pissed, but he sees it as me being a hypocrite, asking for stuff I am not giving myself. Part of that vicious circle you mentioned Mavash. Thing is I am just not prepared to start giving the things he likes again untill I feel him giving more.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Monet19 said:


> And just like you, I've had posters respond by saying "I don't like your husband" or "your husband is not nice" Lol.


I'll probably do a poor job of explaining, but you've touched on the essence of much of the hurt in relationship situations like this, I believe. We primarily see a situation from our own perception. Here, we see the struggles walkingwounding is facing, and can only see her husband from this perspective, missing all the attributes within him that make her feel that it is all worth the effort to buid something better. But going deeper, as a man, I can't help but try to understand what types of thought patterns that may be behind the WW's husband's actions. What makes him fear reaching out to her in a way she needs? Is she perceiving one set of motivations for his behavior, while he is driven by insecurities that are typical for men, and only made worse by his own failures?

What I'm getting at is something that I think Mavash once alluded to. At first, she had her own perception of where her husband's problems lay, and what was driving him to behave as he did. It was only when she let herself not be 'the reason' for his problems that she began to approach it as something less threatening. She let it be 'his problem', while still holding herself accountable for her own past. Took the pressure off. Hope I got that right. 

Oddly enough, while it wasn't something that we connected to our sexual relationship, I experienced what I felt to be a very similar dynamic. My wife began to struggle more and more with her bipolar depression as our marriage progressed, and she later told me that it was often like there were voices that told her that she wasn't worthy of love, and that I was only pretending to care. Even when she made her way out of the depressive cycles, those doubts lingered. I don't want to make this thread about me, but her perceptions of who I was as a person became cemented, in a sense, and a couple of decades passed before she finally realized that she didn't even know the real me at all. I'm serious. It came as a shock to her when I received a call that my half-brother had died - she didn't even know that I had a half brother. It was something very hard for me to reveal, but being so guided by her own perceptions, we had never even reached a place where I could tell her about things that I had buried, like the shame of being abandoned by my mother after the death of my brother, and having to live in the limbo of a state battle between whether I should be cared for by the state, or by native american services. 

While this was extreme, my point was that she was very much guided by her perceptions of my motivations. When she fell into a deep depression, it hurt her that it took me such a long time to learn to comfort her in her love language. Instead, I would try to motivate her, urge her to move on, or even plan fun days together. She thought I was just tired of her. Really, deep down I knew that the last person I really trusted left me on a curb, standing lost in a town, when she had fallen into a deep depression like that. My wife's depression terrified me. 

Not at all suggesting that your husband's insecurities are justified, or that there is even a big issue hidden in his past. But something tells me, as a man, that most men want to be known as a great lover by their wife. Women seem so comfortable with expressing their needs, while I can't help but wonder if he went from feeling like an awkward young man who was too ashamed to play the role of a confident partner, to a man who just avoided the subject altogether. It would be a mistake for you to try to feel as if this had anything to do with his attraction to you. I really think that the most positive gift that you could give would be to remind him frequently that he is fully capable of meeting your needs, and that you wouldn't want him to doubt that. Try to find his perspective, if you can. We men are pretty dull when it comes to being in touch with our feelings.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Halien said:


> What makes him fear reaching out to her in a way she needs? Is she perceiving one set of motivations for his behavior, while he is driven by insecurities that are typical for men, and only made worse by his own failures?
> 
> What I'm getting at is something that I think Mavash once alluded to. At first, she had her own perception of where her husband's problems lay, and what was driving him to behave as he did. It was only when she let herself not be 'the reason' for his problems that she began to approach it as something less threatening. She let it be 'his problem', while still holding herself accountable for her own past. Took the pressure off. Hope I got that right.


:iagree:

Those type questions are ones which I still ask myself sometimes in relation to my husband when he behaves in a way I don't like. I know now he isn't doing it on purpose and that he does in fact love me. At the core he's just not good at intimacy. Neither was I but I'm learning.  

I do finally see that he has his own issues that have are not of my doing. Yes I contributed to them, added to them but I did not cause them. And it's NOT personal.

I always say you can't fix a problem until you understand it and WW there is something with your husband....I can feel it. I just don't know WHAT it is. And that WHAT could be many things too. That's what makes this so hard. It's like one giant puzzle to solve and it's frustrating when you don't have all the pieces. 

Do you know I didn't get the last piece of my puzzle until last Oct? Crazy right? But very very true. And once I got that the flood gates opened and I got my husband back.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

What do you make of this?

Talking with H earlier. Joking around, he made some kind of unintentional innuendo, cannot remember exactly what he said.

I stepped up and said something like, "oh yeah?" with a smile to catch his attention to what he had said.

He just blanked it. I raised and eyebrow and said, look, if you heard one of your favorite comedians say that on TV you'd know *exactly* what it meant, yet when I say it you act like you don't get it?

He turned to me and said "I was trying to get some more out of you. Trying to get you to say more, like we were talking about the other day" [_ie talking dirty._[/I]

I was like, oh. Right. Clearly his efforts are aimed at ME changing. Interesting. Not working on HIM making changs but getting me to change. Right.

Other thing...

I get what you guys are saying Halien and Mavash. I have thought about it but it is a hard thing to get my head around truthfully. I guess the truth is I do not feel loved. I do not feel he is attracted to me. It is hard to think, well yeah he *is* attracted to me but acts like he isn't for his own reasons. I guess in my head I (simplistically?) think if he loves me and is attracted to me he would show it.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

walkingwounded said:


> What do you make of this?
> 
> Talking with H earlier. Joking around, he made some kind of unintentional innuendo, cannot remember exactly what he said.
> 
> ...


Please don't think that I was implying that his insecurities (or whatever) excuse his avoidance of your genuine needs. For me, just understanding how my wife made some of the assumptions she did just helped me to cut her some slack when she was trying. 

He has to get to the place where he realizes that you are reaching out beyond your comfort zone to meet his needs, so he should do the same. Right now, I would agree with you that he seems to be looking at this as largely your issue. But I've seen men who will stall and even deny problems that would require them to step out of their comfort zone, and others who are bound by insecurities. Without knowing him more, it would be hard to try to suggest reasons for why he is holding back. 

But, by the nature of our culture, men initially tend to look up to our wife as the one who is more in touch with her emotions, and even what is right or wrong in regards to an intimate relationship. At the core of his spirit, you are the expert, in a sense. If you are signalling that you are unhappy with the relationship, it would just be hard to believe that he isn't internalizing this, adding to whatever is causing him to hold back. Hey, I'm just a guy who writes fiction as a hobby, but your last sentence reminded me of what the character was trying to say in Notting Hill, when she said, "I'm just a girl... standing in front of a guy." If you can help him see that you are just as lost and vulnerable as he, instead of how he might be internalizing it as a personal failure, he might begin to approach it differently.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Halien said:


> Hey, I'm just a guy who writes fiction as a hobby, but your last sentence reminded me of what the character was trying to say in Notting Hill, when she said, "I'm just a girl... standing in front of a guy." If you can help him see that you are just as lost and vulnerable as he, instead of how he might be internalizing it as a personal failure, he might begin to approach it differently.


This is how I got the last piece of the puzzle. I don't recommend going here first but after all the work I'd done yes I stood in front him lost, sad and vulnerable. For the first time my husband SAW me and the pain I was in. Before? Wouldn't dare show him for fear he'd reject and hurt me more. Takes some serious courage to bare your soul like I did.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

walkingwounded said:


> I guess in my head I (simplistically?) think if he loves me and is attracted to me he would show it.


Mine didn't due to his own insecurity. He loved and was attracted to me but feared me therefore he didn't show it. To him it wasn't safe to do so. I totally get it.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

All read and digested.

I know I am not "there" yet though. To me, I honestly feel angry at the thought that he might fear me, or not be able to show love because I am angry at him. I think of all the times I *wasn't* angry, that I took the different approach, worked to understand why he was behaving like he was, and that it did not appear to make a bit of difference.

IME, taking the "softer" approach simply leads to him taking advantage. I can explain exactly how it goes. He does something ( 90% of the time "something" is something he knows will irk me and probably any average woman), then smoochies up to me, is all nice, starts doing stuff he knows I would like usually but for some reason withholds a lot of the time, then when he feels he has done enough, it is back to usual.

Taking the "angry" approach means we hardly speak for a day, one of us brings it up, we usually have a heated discussion, I get upset, he says I am being unreasonable and gives reasons *why* he does what he does. It basically goes like, he should be able to do what he wants, and I should understand that. He says he does not ask for stuff from me. Well as I have said, firstly, I do not act unreasonably like he does in the manner of breaking agreements, and secondly I do not neglect his needs so he *has* to ask for stuff.

I just cannot understand how he would go so far as for me to say I feel if we continue on this path it will not end well, yet carry on ignoring what I have asked from him and turning it into *my* problem.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

> IME, taking the "softer" approach simply leads to him taking advantage. I can explain exactly how it goes. He does something ( 90% of the time "something" is something he knows will irk me and probably any average woman), then smoochies up to me, is all nice, starts doing stuff he knows I would like usually but for some reason withholds a lot of the time, then when he feels he has done enough, it is back to usual.


This is kinda passive aggressive behavior and it's NOT okay.



> Taking the "angry" approach means we hardly speak for a day, one of us brings it up, we usually have a heated discussion, I get upset, he says I am being unreasonable and gives reasons *why* he does what he does.


This isn't okay either. See how he calls you unreasonable and he makes excuses for his behavior completely ignoring you in the process. 



> It basically goes like, he should be able to do what he wants, and I should understand that. He says he does not ask for stuff from me.


Is this true? He gets no benefit from being married to you? Really?



> Well as I have said, firstly, I do not act unreasonably like he does in the manner of breaking agreements, and secondly I do not neglect his needs so he *has* to ask for stuff.


You might want to change this. Act unreasonable and neglect his needs for a change. 



> I just cannot understand how he would go so far as for me to say I feel if we continue on this path *it will not end well,* yet carry on ignoring what I have asked from him and turning it into *my* problem.


It means he doesn't take you seriously. And yes it is YOUR problem. The marriage is working fine for him.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> This is kinda passive aggressive behavior and it's NOT okay.


Yeah it is weird. Typical soothing gestures include offers of massage, flowers, ice cream, pick up my favorite dinner, and the promise of quality time, like watching a film at home together. I cannot say he *never* does these otherwise, but at least three of them are definitely scarse on the ground. They suddenly get pulled out of the bag when he has done something to upset me.



> This isn't okay either. See how he calls you unreasonable and he makes excuses for his behavior completely ignoring you in the process.


What he essentially is saying is he wants me to respond in the softer way. Understanding him and being nice about it. He hates me calling him out on stuff. It sounds like he actually thinks if I just took the time to understand *why* then automatically all these negative behaviors would be OK. No accountability on his part.



> Is this true? He gets no benefit from being married to you? Really?


Apparently so! Oh yeah he often throws that one out there, that he never asks me for anything. Designed to make ME look demanding and him look really laid back and tolerant.



> You might want to change this. Act unreasonable and neglect his needs for a change.


Ah but when I do this, I am being a "hypocrite" and I should not be giving just to receive. AKA "I am quite happy as I am so don't rock the boat by trying to make things fair because then I have to make an effort..."



> It means he doesn't take you seriously. And yes it is YOUR problem. The marriage is working fine for him.


No he does not take me seriously. Not entirely sure what I would have to do to be taken seriously.

And he wouldn't say the marriage is working fine... He would say I am allways complaining and am miserable to be around apparently...


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

> They suddenly get pulled out of the bag when he has done something to upset me.


When you're upset with him he punishes you. I'd dig deeper on this one. Wonder what motivates him to act like this? Most men when they are in trouble act NICER. I'm guessing he doesn't think he's done anything wrong and is pissed at you for being upset.



> He hates me calling him out on stuff. It sounds like he actually thinks if I just took the time to understand *why* then automatically all these negative behaviors would be OK. No accountability on his part.


I've actually encouraged you to figure out *why* too not to let him off the hook but to understand before you call him out on stuff. The negative behaviors have a source and you can't fix them until you understand them. His explanations for his negative behaviors are probably not the right ones.



> Apparently so! Oh yeah he often throws that one out there, that he never asks me for anything. Designed to make ME look demanding and him look really laid back and tolerant.


So he has fewer needs than you? This may be true actually.



> Ah but when I do this, I am being a "hypocrite" and I should not be giving just to receive. AKA "I am quite happy as I am so don't rock the boat by trying to make things fair because then I have to make an effort..."


This isn't up to him to decide. I agree you should not give to receive but if the relationship is unbalanced (and it is) then the answer is to pull back aka the 180. And yes the point is to make him put forth an effort. I don't see any other way around this with people like him who are passive and lazy.



> No he does not take me seriously. Not entirely sure what I would have to do to be taken seriously.


Stopping meeting his needs or balance it out with what he gives would be a good start. He's got it too easy now. And when you try this what happens is he baits you to get you to start up again without having to DO anything. This take time and he will fight to get you back to the old you.



> And he wouldn't say the marriage is working fine... He would say I am always complaining and am miserable to be around apparently.


This is what the 180 is about. It's about getting happy WITHOUT him. You stop complaining and get happy. Problem solved. Be careful what you wish for.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

BTW I'm convinced you can figure anyone out if you study them enough. And once you understand them you'll know whether the relationship is fixable or not.

Where most people get stuck is when the truth is too painful to face. Stories abound on TAM of people not willing to see the truth that is right in front of their faces sometimes. 

My own story could have ended completely differently. I got lucky in that regard. I called his bluff metaphorically speaking and he came back....some don't.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

I know he has issues, like everybody does. I do not know if I am supposed to searching on a deeper level than what I allready know, or if what I allready know is, well, what I *need* to k now.

I am in a quandry. I keep thinking I am asking him for affirmation of how he feels, that he finds me attractive, beautifull, that I am his priority in his life. I have given him concrete examples. Yet I can totally see that given I really am atm not making nearly as much effort in his direction as I used to, that, for example, I really cannot expect him to look at me in my fleecey robe and old nightclothes and say wow you look hot! KWIM?

Things I have currently changed from my usual MO:
- no initiating
- no investing in looking great for him, particularly at times I would have done this before, like when all the kids are in bed or we have some grown up time. I do however make sure I look good the rest of the time
- reduced shows of affection and initiating affection, eg I don't go to him when he leaves for work for a kiss etc
- no longer wait for him to come to bed with me
- rarely text or call him at work, never send him sexy texts any more
- started catching up with friends again
- stopped complaining about him getting home from work late

What has he done in response?

- Told me I am miserable to be around
- Made out like all this is solely my problem
- Told me what is there to find attractive?

I guess this is part of him responding to my changes but I cannot lie, hearing those things hurt, *especially* when i have been making an effort to be upbeat, and used to make a massive effort which was rarely appreciated.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

> I really cannot expect him to look at me in my fleecey robe and old nightclothes and say wow you look hot! KWIM?


Get new lounge wear for YOU. Something attractive but comfortable. Buy it because it makes you feel good in it not for your husband.



> Told me I am miserable to be around


Projection. He is miserable to be around. 



> Made out like all this is solely my problem


If it's yours then he doesn't have to DO anything.



> Told me what is there to find attractive?


Blameshifting. Again he doesn't want to DO anything. So I'm going to go back to something I told you months and months ago. He does the least he has to do to keep you. No more no less.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Mavash's advice on how to dig deeper into the conflict was solid, in my opinion, so I just wanted to bring up a side issue, more or less.

While there is nothing inherently wrong in it, I get the impression that there is a lot of self-checking and external validation going on, where you do something, watch his response, then adjust and move on to something else, watch, etc. It is truly saddening to see how blind he is to this (or pretends to be), and how little affirmation you are getting at this time where you particularly need it. But lets just talk about you, okay? What type of woman do you want to be? How do you want to see yourself in the mirror? Confident? Happy? One who feels that any man with an ounce of common sense would see how lucky your husband is?

To some degree, I believe that you have to strive to make yourself the owner of your happiness, confidence, and security. You just can't convince me that people aren't instinctively aware of when they are in an elevated position within a marriage. What I mean by this is that your husband might be sensing that he has the upper hand. All of your distancing measures described seem to be about him, or how to cope with the way he makes you feel. He's aware of that, to some degree. 

What if he sees a woman who is guided by a strong inner core of strength, who seems impervious to his failings? Someone who dresses nice FOR HERSELF. If he can't give of his time, she finds activities, and can actually pursue these for her. Someone who believes that the right thing to do FOR HER is offer him a smile with a goodbye in the morning. I think you would have to draw a sharp line of boundaries when it comes to intimacy, because, remember, the goal is to have him look up to you for attention, as one who should feel lucky that he gets it.

I really just think that if you can keep the goal of being strong and positive within yourself, restraining from the type of self-checking that elevates him to a dominant role, he'll begin to realize that he better start pursuing you or he will risk losing you. Let him look up to you. Others will, and he will sense it going on as friends and family interact with you. Not easy, but just reminding yourself of the importance of approaching him from an equal level, or even making him look upward in the role balance of the relationship, might help.

Remember, men in our culture are almost hardwired to elevate women. I've tried to understand why these roles seemed reversed here, but I can't help but wonder if he is sensing all of the insecurity, self-checking, because he is seeing your actions as punishment. Still means that you are doing them because of him. Start doing things because they are a reflection of your true spirit instead.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Halien said:


> To some degree, I believe that you have to strive to make yourself the owner of your happiness, confidence, and security. You just can't convince me that people aren't instinctively aware of when they are in an elevated position within a marriage. What I mean by this is that your husband might be sensing that he has the upper hand. All of your distancing measures described seem to be about him, or how to cope with the way he makes you feel. He's aware of that, to some degree.


AMEN!!! YES YES YES YES 

It's so hard to describe what I did but yes I did turn the tables on my husband. He went from having the upper hand to well not. LOL I took back ownership of my happiness, confidence and security. I say this with utmost respect but I no longer gave a rats ass how he felt about me. I liked me...A LOT. Yes I was sad at the loss and I grieved that but at the end of the day I just knew I'd be okay with or without him. I quit looking to him to make me happy. I LET HIM GO!!!! 

I distanced myself for ME not him. Oh sure at first it was for him like Halien said but after almost 2 years I got sick of that and something clicked in me. Suddenly I was doing it for ME. Not to cope or to fix my marriage but because I was determined to live my life to the fullest BY MYSELF. Now either he could join in or not I wasn't going to sit around and analyze every move anymore. I was DONE!!

BTW I have the upper hand now but I use my power for good.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Thanks again both of you.

I am going to go off and think about what you both said, Mavash, particularly your last paragraph, and Halien, what you said about who do I want to be?

It is hard because I guess I was hoping I would instigate changes in me and he would immediately respond. OK so I realized our whole marriage dynamic is not going to change rightaway but I had hoped for just something to show me some glimmer of hope.

Because the truth is I feel like I am in mourning for something. I feel so sad right now. It is really hard to separate my self worth from how he is with me. I feel like shutting myself in a room alone.

I guess the positive is I know I am making fundamental changes to me. I have a self awareness that I never had before and I did consider myself to be pretty good at knowing me.

I will be back later with some thoughts.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

walkingwounded said:


> It is really hard to separate my self worth from how he is with me.


Yes this is incredibly hard to do. For me it took therapy to fix it. Lots of it actually. I have a fear of abandonment and separation anxiety. Combined with a low self esteem well it stands to reason that my self worth came from how my husband was with me too. I totally get this.

I now have my own self worth and it is NOT tied to my husband. He is a separate person and he does not define my worth. I do. That was me giving my power away which I won't do anymore.

Until you find your self worth away from him it's unlikely your marriage will change. He's got the upper hand like Halien says and he knows it.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

walkingwounded said:


> Thanks again both of you.
> 
> I am going to go off and think about what you both said, Mavash, particularly your last paragraph, and Halien, what you said about who do I want to be?
> 
> ...


Many of us find ourself on similar jouneys, so my heart goes out to you. It takes time, which is like rubbing salt in the wound when you say it. 

Some among friends and family described me as the alpha/leader type. But my wife struggled desperately with regular cycles of depression with her bipolar condition. After 20 years, I felt so incredibly lonely. Hard to believe we could connect so passionately, but her therapist described it like I was constantly filling an incredible void in her life, and she was desperately grateful, yet convinced at times that real love should be able to make the pain go away. But I had never once talked to her about my fears, my dreams, or anything of substance about me. For the longest time, I didn't want or need to. But with the midlife crisis, it hit me that there was not a single person in the world who really knew me, and my life was half way gone. We found balance, though. We're getting there. I really hope you can too.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Been reflecting.

I totally agree that the person with the upper hand knows on some level. I say that because I remember in the past just, well, knowing *I* was the one with the power. I feel sure he must feel that, I cannot *know* he does but I see a lot in our dynamics that shows it from him.

What Halien said... I don't think I am yet there to become who I want. I think it really will take some time. I have made steps but clearly it is simply the start of any changes. Having said that, I do feel positive about the small changes I have made so far for me.

I get what you mean about doing it for me. Yes I can recognize a lot of it is based on him and I think that it would be healthy to acknowledge that kind of motivation, but to realize I need to take it further than that and work on me FOR ME. I can say yes, I have been doing that also. Things like starting up seeing friends again, I cannot tell you how nice it is to get those friendships flourishing again. It adds a dimension to my life that I had neglected for a while. It makes me feel separate from H, but I mean that in a good way. Like affirming that I can be separate and not everything is about my marriage, that I did used to be someone before I met him.

I do think now I am a catch. Yes may be I am a work in progress, but essentially I am a loving wife who wants to care for my H and be cared for by him. I am aware of his needs. We have beautifull children together. I have supported him and stood by him at difficult times and I genuinely think a lot of women would have had enough of him by now considering how he has behaved in the past.

I do feel a bit more positive now having read what you both wrote. I feel like being *that* person is someone I can be.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Ah well may be not so positive. I feel very down today. I feel incredibly lonely. H is being his usual no nonsense self and completely appears like he wants me to be A-OK. I am terrible at hiding when things are bothering me, so he says, and he is right. 

It seems like such a mountain to climb on my own and yes, I feel disappointed that I am doing this on my own. He really thinks things should not have to be worked at and should flow naturally.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

> I feel very down today. I feel incredibly lonely. H is being his usual no nonsense self and completely appears like he wants me to be A-OK. I am terrible at hiding when things are bothering me, so he says, and he is right.


If it makes you feel better I was here LOTS of time. More than I care to admit actually. I can't hide anything either which is why to fix this I had to get A-OK. It's okay to be lonely. It will pass I promise. Keep cultivating those friendships, take good care of yourself and press on. 



> It seems like such a mountain to climb on my own and yes, I feel disappointed that I am doing this on my own. He really thinks things should not have to be worked at and should flow naturally.


Sweetie he can't solve your self worth problems only you can. In a way this is a blessing for you. I know it sucks but if you can learn to stand on your own two feet you're going to be so much happier. At the moment you're still buying into the concept that your husband holds the keys to your happiness. He doesn't. YOU DO. 

He may be a jerk and a cheater I really don't know. All I know is you're giving him way too much power over your life. I recognize it only because I did it myself.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

It just seems so unfair. I get that I am the one that has to make me feel better about me. But it was him that did the damage. It all feels quite unjust right now. 
Today has been hard. I just holed up in the bedroom after he got up. Not in any way is that helpfull but I wanted to be on my own. He knew there was something wrong, he thought I was angry at him. I told him I wasn't but he did not follow it up and it did not feel right to have a big discussion, mainly because they never actually achieve anything. Don't know if that was right but talking didn't so I didn't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

> It just seems so unfair. I get that I am the one that has to make me feel better about me. But it was him that did the damage. It all feels quite unjust right now.


It is unfair you're right. It's like my parents damaged me and I'm the one that got stuck picking up the pieces. I had to make me feel better about me not them. And my husband actually contributed to my depression too. Again he only just recently AFTER 2 years of being on this path did he own that. Before? He just didn't get it.

This is part of the process. It's the grief process. It's realizing that nobody else is going to solve your problems but you. Doesn't really matter WHO did the damage because at the end of the day the responsibility is still yours. And yes it sucks.



> Today has been hard. I just holed up in the bedroom after he got up. Not in any way is that helpfull but I wanted to be on my own.


Been there done that. It's days like this that I wish I hadn't deleted my old posts. If I could show you those you'd be SHOCKED at how far I've come since first coming to TAM in Feb 2011.



> He knew there was something wrong, he thought I was angry at him. I told him I wasn't but he did not follow it up and it did not feel right to have a big discussion, mainly because they never actually achieve anything. Don't know if that was right but talking didn't so I didn't.


You handled this beautifully. 

Take care of yourself - that's THE most important thing. Look inside for your answers not to him. He doesn't have the answers you do. Trust me on this.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> It is unfair you're right. It's like my parents damaged me and I'm the one that got stuck picking up the pieces. I had to make me feel better about me not them. And my husband actually contributed to my depression too. Again he only just recently AFTER 2 years of being on this path did he own that. Before? He just didn't get it.
> 
> This is part of the process. It's the grief process. It's realizing that nobody else is going to solve your problems but you. Doesn't really matter WHO did the damage because at the end of the day the responsibility is still yours. And yes it sucks.
> 
> ...


I think you are right about me having the answers. It is actually very hard to break old habits. Previously I would have shared it all, probably got upset and accusatory and we would have argued or been cross at each other for hours.

I have realized that talking things out so much just does not solve things like I thought it did. I think thinking about who I want to be is going to help. That feels a lot more streamlined and easier in my head somehow I like the idea of being who I am and being able to respect and like that no matter what happens. I do need to tie in how I handle conflict because that is a problem but I at least have an awareness now of what I do and what is not working.

I feel better today. I read once somewhere that "where you are is exactly where you need to be" ( or something like that!) and it helps me realize that things like this *are* a process, a journey, not an immediate A to B.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

OK OK so we got into a "discussion" last night... Old habits die hard and all that What's done is done.

I am clearly caught between the idea that the answers come from within and feeling that H is somehow getting away with doing his bit. Again I realize this is a process and I know I will get away from looking to him to mend me but truly I felt so aggreived last night that he is meandering along, not looking like he cares a jot about my hurt.

One thing he *did* say was that he is not the calm and collected guy I *think* he is. Not at all. I find this very hard to believe because he is so matter of fact about things, rarely appears stressed, shouts or anything like that. He sounds quite down actually, it sounds like the daily grind is getting to him no matter how much he soldiers on.

He still says he loves me very much.

He also said some things that were quite frankly odd to me. He said he gets talked at so much at workand is so stressed that when he gets home he just wants to sit in silence.

Now *this* I can completely understand. But what he is actually saying is he is happy to sit in silence five evenings a week with me in the same room. He doesn't see the point in talking, such as at the dinner table, because he knows what I am going to say ( ie asking the kids about their day at school, asking how work was, chatting, smalltalk really.) So he is happy to essentially NOT TALK to me pretty much five days a week as we only see each other in passing in the mornings and he is pretty busy most days at work. 

That just strikes me as crazy thinking. I cannot understand how he keeps feeling connected to me, may be just my physical presence I do not know. But it is not even as if we touch, or cuddle, or do anything. We sit apart, watching TV, on the computer, reading or whatever *shrugs*


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

I know I'm old fashioned, but my wife and I put some basic expectations in place in the first years of marriage, and I can't help but wonder if you think he would be receptive. Especially if you tell him that you want to spend some time getting used to the feeling of being close, but with no expectations. See, I tend to be very introspective, but I didn't want her to feel like it had anything to do with her. At first, we set aside a daily time that we would try to connect. Through the years, it grew less formal, but we always make our way to the sofa in our bedroom, and sit really close. By definition, it is a stress-free time, with no expectations. I grew to really value the time. Sometimes, she'll read a marriage book we're working through, other times we just "make out", while sometimes, she'll just doze with her head on my shoulder. We feel very connected.

He's still just copping out, in my opinion, by saying that he's overwhelmed. Trying to set the bar to not having to address areas where he feels insecure about his chances of meeting your needs. It just seems like such a classic male insecurity, and probably very hard for some women to understand. Because you are so in touch with your insecurities, maybe you can't see how little it has to do with his feelings for you. But I really think that he has to become comfortable, and completely at ease just being with you in a way that he doesn't feel that he is letting you down.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

> OK OK so we got into a "discussion" last night... Old habits die hard and all that What's done is done.


You'll learn....eventually. LOL



> I am clearly caught between the idea that the answers come from within and feeling that H is somehow getting away with doing his bit.


This is you still wanting to blame HIM for YOUR problems. Classic blameshifting. Instead of taking ownership of YOUR problem its easier to be upset with him. I totally get it but it totally won't help you AT ALL.



> He said he gets talked at so much at work and is so stressed that when he gets home he just wants to sit in silence.


I call BS on this. Its another excuse just like the dozens of others he's given you. This is why I wish you'd stop having 'discussions' with him because all they do is lead you down the wrong path. Like Halien said it's a total cop out on his part.



> So he is happy to essentially NOT TALK to me pretty much five days a week as we only see each other in passing in the mornings and he is pretty busy most days at work.


This is why I recommend that you STOP talking to him. Just stop. Yes this is exactly what he's saying. And I'm wondering why this isn't pissing you off.



> That just strikes me as crazy thinking. I cannot understand how he keeps feeling connected to me, may be just my physical presence I do not know. But it is not even as if we touch, or cuddle, or do anything. We sit apart, watching TV, on the computer, reading or whatever *shrugs*


See these 'discussions' just confuse you. The truth is he's just not that into you now WHY he isn't I don't know. So the answer again is to let him go and start working on you. Stop expecting a man who isn't into you to give you what you need. It's not gonna happen not until you change this dynamic you've got going on. Your TRUTH is you're married but living like single roommates. He comes to you only when he gets horny enough - what every week or so??? Been there done that and it SUCKS.

I agree with Halien that it's probably tied to some insecurity (same as with my husband) but you have no control over him just you. If YOU get centered and balanced while stopping talking he will feel safe. At the moment you're still having 'discussions' which only prolong this process.

Ever see the movie the horse whisperer where Robert Redford sits for hours quietly waiting for the spooked horse to come to him? This is a similar concept except it takes MONTHS not hours.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Those last two posts have provided me with a lot of clarity. Thanks guys.

At this point I do still feel that he is getting off easy with this. I think for now the easiest way is just to accept I feel like that and it is OK. I think that keeping thinking this is all a process helps. 

I think I can see a bit better that why he is how he is is not related to me being a nice or good person. As to whether he is into me or not... Who knows?

And no more discussions!


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

walkingwounded said:


> At this point I do still feel that he is getting off easy with this.


If you could grasp what I'm telling you to do he wouldn't be getting off easy. You'd do what I did and turn the tables and take back your power....he won't like that AT ALL!!! My husband admits now that he hated it when I let him go and meant it. Drove him nuts. This is what the 180 is about.

The only risk with this is that he doesn't come back. It happens sometimes. Mentally you need to be prepared for that. Think about the saying if you love someone set them free if they come back they are yours if they don't they aren't. I totally believe this. 

WW change your perspective. You think he's getting off easy only because you don't yet understand how life works. Take your focus off him and change your life. Had a friend that I coached on this - her husband didn't come back so she divorced him. She's happily practically engaged to a great guy who adores her and her THREE kids.

Her husband? Well karma's a b!tch. He lost his job, is about to lose the house, fun fun. LOL

Which brings me to another point. Trust the universe to take care of your husband. He won't get off easy for neglecting his vows to love, honor and cherish you. You might not see it but I promise you it will happen. What goes around comes around is also true. Have more faith.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

OK so thoughts on this...

H at home earlier. Stood in the kitchen. In my new found "I don't care"-ness we were chatting as I was the other side of the kitchen, I walked over to him and hugged him and leaned my head on his chest. I thought, hey, get me, I am being me and not worrying about what he does ( he is not that affectionate and it has been a bone of contention for a while now.)

He kinda looked down at me for a sec then said, oh does someone want a hug? and gave me a quick hug. I snuggled in to him and he kinda stopped hugging as soon as he had started and I was left in a one way hug. 

I had that feeling of "ohno". He has done this a lot. I feel kinda embarrassed and humiliated. Like I am clinging on to him and he is not that interested. 

I acted quick and let go and walked off breezily. I was trying to be OK but like I say I do not hide these things well and there were a couple of "what's up?"s and "are you OK?"s from him. I made up some quite frankly lousy excuse that I was really hungry and that was that.

My thoughts... NONONONONO. Oh NO. Why do I do this? It is so STUPID. He *never* fails to deliver when I do this and yet I continue to armed with some fake confidence that suddenly disappears when he either does not reciprocate or does that above where he momentarily responds then literally carries on what he is doing with me still hugging him. I cannot even describe how humiliating it is.

The worst thing is that earlier I was sexting him for later this evening and now all I want to do is poke his eyes out with sharp sticks


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Okay let me try this again. 

He's stated on MANY occasions in many ways that he wants you to stop talking, stop touching, stop initiating, stop it all. You knew this and yet you did it anyway? Of course he rejected you. I expected nothing less from him. Nice save though I'll give you that. Great job.

Don't even get me started on the sexting....

This is what the 180 is about. NO AFFECTION to the WS (in your case he's not a wayward in the technical sense but he is in fact lost). Pretend like you're separated and on the way to divorce. Let him go and learn to live life without him. 

Oh and while you're at it get a vibrator and put it to good use preferably daily....it helps.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> Okay let me try this again.
> 
> He's stated on MANY occasions in many ways that he wants you to stop talking, stop touching, stop initiating, stop it all. You knew this and yet you did it anyway? Of course he rejected you. I expected nothing less from him. Nice save though I'll give you that. Great job.
> 
> ...




Right. I think I am getting it. Hindsight is a great thing obviously!

What was I thinking? Hmm. 

I guess my trouble is I feel like a ***** if I just go about my business like he is not there. I mean, I know a lot of the time he does that any way. I guess I am waiting for the "you're a hypocrite" card to be played.

And you know what I have realized his "thing" is now? He is all focussed on variety. Honestly if it hadn't come to where we are now, I would be laughing at the irony. He keep going on about wanting to do this and that by way of variety. I shall be honest and say I have *no* idea where this has come from, because it was *me* who was asking him months back and he said he was happy with things repeatedly and had nothing to offer about what we could do differently. It is clear he is focussed on improving things in the bedroom but not yet out of the bedroom. 

What's that about?


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Thinking about it, is it possibly he has sensed that I have pulled back in some areas and is trying to regain some footing?

Or simply what he said a couple of weeks back that he was just bored in the bedroom?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

> I guess my trouble is I feel like a ***** if I just go about my business like he is not there. I mean, I know a lot of the time he does that any way. I guess I am waiting for the "you're a hypocrite" card to be played.


We women were taught that if we take care of ourselves we're a b!tch but if we cater to men we're doormats. This is lose/lose thinking. The strategy is to change your thinking. There is another place of self love and self respect. There is nothing wrong with treating your man like a king IF (big IF here) he treats you like a queen. Yours is an ass. He's told you he doesn't even want you to talk to him 5 days a week. WTF!!!

And you're worried about the hypocrite card being played? Really?



> And you know what I have realized his "thing" is now? He is all focussed on variety. Honestly if it hadn't come to where we are now, I would be laughing at the irony. He keep going on about wanting to do this and that by way of variety. I shall be honest and say I have *no* idea where this has come from, because it was *me* who was asking him months back and he said he was happy with things repeatedly and had nothing to offer about what we could do differently. It is clear he is focussed on improving things in the bedroom but not yet out of the bedroom.
> 
> What's that about?


This is too vague for me to be able to answer. I need specifics and a timeline as to when he's done this. FWIW things in the bedroom don't improve until things out of the bedroom get fixed.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

walkingwounded said:


> Thinking about it, is it possibly he has sensed that I have pulled back in some areas and is trying to regain some footing?
> 
> Or simply what he said a couple of weeks back that he was just bored in the bedroom?


If you do what I say he will absolutely try to regain some footing. The problem is if you give it to him too soon he will go back to his old ways. You need to be cool hand luke for a while...unfortunately. 

I think he's all talk. Until you give me an example of ACTION he's done I don't believe a word he says.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> We women were taught that if we take care of ourselves we're a b!tch but if we cater to men we're doormats. This is lose/lose thinking. The strategy is to change your thinking. There is another place of self love and self respect. There is nothing wrong with treating your man like a king IF (big IF here) he treats you like a queen. Yours is an ass. He's told you he doesn't even want you to talk to him 5 days a week. WTF!!!
> 
> And you're worried about the hypocrite card being played? Really?


Well yeah I am. I can see it coming a mile off. He has said it before. The "how come you don't/aren't doing xyz yet you've been asking for abc?" It *will* rear it's head again. I know it.



> This is too vague for me to be able to answer. I need specifics and a timeline as to when he's done this. FWIW things in the bedroom don't improve until things out of the bedroom get fixed.


I would say the last week or two at most. We get a regular bit of time alone at the weekend and he was talking about it this last weekend. Then again last night. He has been suggesting stuff, nothing out there but trying to spice it up a bit, change the routine. Which is perfectly fine with me but it is confusing. A few weeks back he brought it up and it explained a lot of stuff, the way he had been acting. But he has not actually really properly suggested anything different untill this last weekend and last night. His insistence was puzzling as usually he is pretty, well passive when it comes to sex stuff. I mean, months ago he told me a handfull of times that he was fine with our sex life, he was not bored and did not want to try anything new in particular. He really did not appear bothered at all. Now he is really pressing it.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Sit tight and observe. Talk very little.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> Sit tight and observe. Talk very little.


OK. Will see what happens. Atm he is initiating affection more, like goodnight kisses and when he goes to work but my feeling is this is based on our 'talk' the other day and IME this kind of change wears off after a week or two at most. We shall see.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

I AM ENOUGH
I am full of sparkle & compassion. I genuinely want to make the world a better place. I love hard. I practice kindness. I'm not afraid of the truth. I am loyal, adventurous, supportive, and surprising.
I am a woman. I am enough.
I make mistakes, but I own them and learn from them. Sometimes I make a lot of mistakes.
-Molly Mahar

There is a saying about giving love and compassion to all, because everyone deserves it. Giving someone affection doesn't have to be a bad thing. 

Learning when to move on when someone doesn't give BACK is the hard part. 

Learning that they are sucking the happy out of YOU is the hard part.

Getting your happy back is the hard part.
But once you do..... it's a good thing.
Keep on focusing on yourself, walking.
You are enough. 
More than enough, actually, when the person you love gives BACK.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

walkingwounded said:


> OK. Will see what happens. Atm he is initiating affection more, like goodnight kisses and when he goes to work but my feeling is this is based on our 'talk' the other day and IME this kind of change wears off after a week or two at most. We shall see.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So right now mentally prepare for it to end after 2 weeks and respond accordingly. Don't DO anything in response to him if it's going to piss you off when he stops. Facing the truth about people is one of the first steps in taking back your life.

Before your 'talks' you thought he was going to change but he didn't. Time and time again he's let you down and more than likely he will again this time too. Are you ready for that?

And please stop talking. 

No more discussions, no more talks, he knows how you feel as you've told him PLENTY of times. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result. Time to stop talking and do something different.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

Mavash gives wise advice in recommending the 180 however you must realize that the 180 is for you, it may or may not “wake your H up”. In my case it didn’t, the only thing it accomplished in the relationship was that it gave my H the ammunition to point the finger in my direction, in other words to blame me. However I know what reality is, I know the facts of my marriage and, I have also come to accept that it does not matter what my H thinks … his verbiage is all a defense mechanism and an attempt to “be right” and therefore remain “blameless”.

You need to stop … stop trying to engage him, stop trying to “figure him out”, stop reading marriage self-help books, just stop. Stop “chasing” him, let him chase you for a change and, if he doesn’t it’s his stupidity and his loss. Focus on you and your children (if they are still at home).

If you need help focusing on yourself, giving thought to the following questions may be helpful (they helped me):

What do you like to do? What were your hopes and dreams before you got caught up in your relationship/marriage? What do you like? What don’t you like so much? What’s important to you? What are you good at?


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Great verse deejov. Like it a lot.

I am getting this. It is going to get worse before it gets better, I have no doubt of that. Atm he is being affectionate where I asked, but like I say I fully expect that to wane after two weeks max. I will continue to let him to come to me, which is what I am doing now with this.

And about me as in the "me" that is me the individual? Well I have joined up at the local gym where I was taking classes a while back. I was also rocking a great sporting hobby that I took time out of because I was feeling down and pressured. I vowed I would restart but when I felt the time was right... I couldn't say exactly when but I had a feeling I would just know. Well I have been thinking about going to practise again. My confidence is all over the place but I am gonna get back into it soon.

I did want a hobby at home too a while ago but I could never quite decide what...


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

walkingwounded said:


> I am getting this. It is going to get worse before it gets better, I have no doubt of that.


Isn't this true of most things? I know it's been true in my life and friends of mine that I've seen go through something similar.

The problem is most people quit or turn back when it gets worse thinking 'oh it's not working' when truthfully that means you're on the right track sometimes. LOL

These things don't turn on a dime. You've got years of an unhealthy dynamic going on and the people who participate in this dance aren't going to be none to happy when you change on them. THAT is why it gets worse before it gets better. They pout, blameshift all the while secretly screaming change back...change back. Understand that and it makes it easier to stay the course.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Disaster zone.

Yesterday I flipped out after the kids woke me at 5.15am which they have been doing for weeks now, refused to go back to sleep despite many MANY repeated efforts, and H seemingly slept through the entire thing. I started ranting and raving about how no one listens to me and the only person who cares about my sleep is ME and how I was going out all day ( this follows a long standing issue with him not getting up/ sleeping in late/ "pretending" to be asleep when the kids wake up and I would just like a bit of backup from him or assistance, I am not forcing him out of bed.)

I got the kids up, dressed and fed and told H I was going out for the day and he had to get up. And I did. Did not return untill around 5.30pm. H was quiet but OK. He went to do some work on his hobby after the kids went to bed then came back in later on. Spoke briefly then I went to bed.

This morning...

Kids woke later but near same scenario. Today was my day to get a little lay in but he appeared to be asleep. I went to sleep in the other empty bedroom. He didn't get up, the kids trashed our room then the littlest somehow got downstairs and made a mess.

He eventually got up, came in to where I was and said he wanted me to get up the same time he had to yesterday. OK I thought, fine with me. 

I did, and he was napping on the sofa, and refused to get up. Basically was being an idiot. I lost the plot and just asked him why exactly he was here? Turned round to look at me, blank stare. Asked tearily what reason did he have to be here because to be honest I didn't know what difference it would make to my life if he wasn't here.

He did the patronizing "so what are you upset about then?" thing to which I told him he knew what things bothered me and it showed that either a) he hadn't listened for the *many* times I had told him, or b) he just didn't take me seriously and I suspected it was a mix of both. 

Then he very helpfully explained how it was actually MY fault that he does not wake up when the kids get up to which I said no way. He kept turning it around on to me and I just broke. Told him I *knew* this would be my fault and I couldn't stand it any more. Why was he here, that on Monday he could go buy the local newspaper and find somewhere else to live, because I did not want him here, I didn't love him, hell I didn't even LIKE him.

****. He went mad at me for a minute. I went upstairs to gather my thoughts. He followed me up, and wanted to talk ( ah the irony!)

So we did ( yes I know but I thought I would indulge him!) 

Points to note:

- He did not apparently mean he did not want to talk to me 5 days a week as per my previous posts on this thread 

- Asking my children about their day when we are all sat at the dinner table is incredibly boring and my older ones get a "look" on their face that I have never noticed so he says

- He has allways hated me asking "for an early night" because it is so unimaginative. Funnily I remember *him* coining that phrase in that context and *him* being the one that asks if I want an "early night" each week 

- Following from last point, he would love it if I were more dirty in asking for sex ( again something he mentioned not long ago.)

- He says in opposition to my feelings, he actually has a lot of respect for me, and the way I run the house and look after the kids and their stuff.

We seemed to get on an even footing after that but I still feel really, well, pissed at him. A little bit empty and sad I guess.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

How old are your kids?


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> How old are your kids?


The elder two are older elementary age. Littlest is a preschooler.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

> Yesterday I flipped out after the kids woke me at 5.15am


I totally understand. I'm a total nutcase without my sleep and I need LOTS of it. My youngest is 7.5 so I'm past all this. But oh do I remember how angry I used to get on days like that. My husband can fall asleep in 2 seconds and sleep though a vacuum. Yeah it's annoying. 

WW please please please try to rest as much as you humanly can. Let the house go if you must. It will be almost impossible to do what I'm telling you to do without sleep. Put the kids in front of a movie and nap on the couch if you have to but REST!!!



> He eventually got up, came in to where I was and said he wanted me to get up the same time he had to yesterday. I did, and he was napping on the sofa, and refused to get up. Basically was being an idiot.


Oh I'd have left him there. If he doesn't wake up in a minute or two walk away. 



> I lost the plot and just asked him why exactly he was here? Turned round to look at me, blank stare. Asked tearily what reason did he have to be here because to be honest I didn't know what difference it would make to my life if he wasn't here.


WW you're exhausted, empty, tapped out and it's no wonder you snapped. You've got little kids. They suck the life out of you and who gives back to you? Your husband is helpless because he's a clueless man. Mine tried to help in those early years but he still pissed me off. Looking back I think I was too hard on myself and him. Nobody tells you how hard it is to be a mother to young children. Society sells us a bill of goods that we should be able to do this, work, keep house AND look good while doing it. No wonder we're frazzled. I always wanted to know where that village was to help me raise my kids. LOL



> He did the patronizing "so what are you upset about then?" thing to which I told him he knew what things bothered me and it showed that either a) he hadn't listened for the *many* times I had told him, or b) he just didn't take me seriously and I suspected it was a mix of both.


I wish you would have said I miss you.



> Then he very helpfully explained how it was actually MY fault that he does not wake up when the kids get up to which I said no way. He kept turning it around on to me and I just broke.


Again you're tapped out.



> Told him I *knew* this would be my fault and I couldn't stand it any more. Why was he here, that on Monday he could go buy the local newspaper and find somewhere else to live, because I did not want him here, I didn't love him, hell I didn't even LIKE him.


Been there done that. Said the same thing to my husband 1.5 years ago. I actually like that you did this. I regret saying the "D" word but I don't regret telling him how seriously close I was to being a walkaway wife.



> ****. He went mad at me for a minute. I went upstairs to gather my thoughts. He followed me up, and wanted to talk ( ah the irony!)
> 
> So we did ( yes I know but I thought I would indulge him!)


Ah but see this was 'different'. Anything different than your usual is actually good. This wasn't your usual wimpy, let me tell you how I feel crap knowing full well he isn't listening this was balls to the wall buddy you have no idea how sick I am of you. :lol:



> - He did not apparently mean he did not want to talk to me 5 days a week as per my previous posts on this thread


Not buying this. He's simply backpedaling to stay out of trouble. He probably only meant 4 days. 



> - Asking my children about their day when we are all sat at the dinner table is incredibly boring and my older ones get a "look" on their face that I have never noticed so he says


Okay so take notice. Maybe he's right. Sometimes our guys to have valuable insight. Or he could just be blame shifting. My kids are 12, 10 and 7. They love to talk about their day. Maybe again he means it's boring to HIM. Just sayin....



> - He has allways hated me asking "for an early night" because it is so unimaginative. Funnily I remember *him* coining that phrase in that context and *him* being the one that asks if I want an "early night" each week


This I don't get. I'm always asking for an early night and I get the deer in the headlights look. In my case I think I'm not direct enough but then again I'm ahead of where you are. If I talked dirty (yes my husband likes that too) when I asked for that he'd go for it. No doubt about it. The dirtier the better he thinks.



> - Following from last point, he would love it if I were more dirty in asking for sex ( again something he mentioned not long ago.)


Why can't he be more dirty when HE asks for sex? Why is this your responsibility?



> - He says in opposition to my feelings, he actually has a lot of respect for me, and the way I run the house and look after the kids and their stuff.


This isn't sexy though. It's mom stuff. He needs to see you as a sexual being.



> We seemed to get on an even footing after that but I still feel really, well, pissed at him. A little bit empty and sad I guess.


I can see why. Other than your one explosion all that happened was he rehashed the same thing over and over again. Or he took back things he said earlier. Nothing changes which is why I'm against conversations. My husband did the same thing and it wasn't until much much later that I understood what he was really trying to say but sucked at it. LOL He was trying to tell me how he felt but I totally didn't get it.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Typed a long reply but lost it so will sum up...

I am tired. So tired both physically and emotionally. I really want a vacation.

I do feel bad for what I said. I do not want it to appear that I would throw those words out to get a reaction because it was not like that at all. But I *do* feel sometimes that I do not know how I feel. And I feel so lonely. He says he does too but I do not get that, he never explains why.

He did say after we talked that he had to think more of others because he was selfish. Kept mentioning it randomly to himself.

And right now I am no way going to even try giving him talking dirty. To me that is like saying, you behave how you want to and I will say I am angry yet reward you with all the sexual things you want. Feels like mixed messages.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

> I do feel bad for what I said. I do not want it to appear that I would throw those words out to get a reaction because it was not like that at all. But I *do* feel sometimes that I do not know how I feel. And I feel so lonely. He says he does too but I do not get that, he never explains why.


I would bet everything that he feels the same as you but neither of you know how to connect. Intimacy isn't always that easy.



> He did say after we talked that he had to think more of others because he was selfish. Kept mentioning it randomly to himself.


My husband says the same thing <eye roll>. I truly do not know why he says that unless he does feel that way when I point it out to him. 



> And right now I am no way going to even try giving him talking dirty. To me that is like saying, you behave how you want to and I will say I am angry yet reward you with all the sexual things you want. Feels like mixed messages.


No no no no I mean for HIM to talk dirty. Every time he brings this up it's like he wants you to do it not him - no responsibility. And no not while you're angry. Of course not.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

I guess it is hard to fathom *why* he would feel lonely when he gets nearly everything how he wants it. I cannot simultaneously leave him alone AND also grace him with my presence and witty charm  Right now I think it is so weird that he can ask me to leave him alone and not talk to him and then say he is lonely... I don't get it?!

I asked him how he felt connected to me. This was because I was talking about feeling connected through talking, chatting, checking in, ie conversation and was asking how he was different ( genuinely interested to see how he feels.) He said just by us sitting in the same room together. From asking more questions, we do not have to be talking, snuggling, touching or even physically close to each other, just my presence is enough for him.

I will admit I do not understand this because to me, I could be any of his close friends if we are sitting in a companionable silence for the majority of our time together. I really do not like this. I know that my judgement has nothing to do with it and it is what it is whether I like it or not. Of course he is entitled to his feelings. I could understand if it were *some* of the time. But it really is most of the time. To me, that is just liking me being around, like he can like anyone he is fond of being around.

He did admit though that he does feel connected through sex, and that he did not think he did, but every time we do it he wonders why we aren't doing it more.

I am feeling a lot of onus on ME here. I do not say enough interesting things, I do not initiate in exciting ways, I do not talk dirty ever, I do not wake him up so he can get up with the kids, etc... It is allmost like he has been sitting back waiting for me to kick everything off in a very passive way rather than instigating any change himself.

I can see that the attempts he *has* made, I have chastized because I felt they were not enough. May be I should have shown more appreciation at the time? I find it hard when I guess I am expecting him to stop his efforts... and he allways does, every time. I feel that thanking him for a token effort makes it look like I am happy with a token effort.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

> I guess it is hard to fathom *why* he would feel lonely when he gets nearly everything how he wants it. I cannot simultaneously leave him alone AND also grace him with my presence and witty charm  Right now I think it is so weird that he can ask me to leave him alone and not talk to him and then say he is lonely... I don't get it?!


You can be lonely in a crowd of people if you have no connection. He's lost his connection to you hence why being around him gracing him with your presence won't work and why detaching will.



> I asked him how he felt connected to me. This was because I was talking about feeling connected through talking, chatting, checking in, ie conversation and was asking how he was different ( genuinely interested to see how he feels.) He said just by us sitting in the same room together. From asking more questions, we do not have to be talking, snuggling, touching or even physically close to each other, just my presence is enough for him.


Not buying this. Oh I'm sure he believes it but it's not true. I mean think about it how on earth does anyone feel connected just by being in the same room and yet say they are lonely??? Sure there are times when you sit together in comfortable silence but that's not the norm.



> I will admit I do not understand this because to me, I could be any of his close friends if we are sitting in a companionable silence for the majority of our time together. I really do not like this. I know that my judgement has nothing to do with it and it is what it is whether I like it or not. Of course he is entitled to his feelings. I could understand if it were *some* of the time. But it really is most of the time. To me, that is just liking me being around, like he can like anyone he is fond of being around.


Most people don't. That's what I just said. There are times when you sit in silence but not the majority of the time. Again you'd have to study and find out WHY he feels this way. I mean is he some kind of recluse incapable of being around other humans? Is he highly introverted? Is he checked out? Men who check out are content to sit in silence while they watch a gazillion hours of tv. They aren't even aware they are doing it but their wives are. 

Observe and study. There is a reason he believes this.



> He did admit though that he does feel connected through sex, and that he did not think he did, but every time we do it he wonders why we aren't doing it more.


Classic LD response. Totally normal. However with men I find there is something causing their LD. Laziness? Fear? Afraid of rejection? Something?



> I am feeling a lot of onus on ME here. I do not say enough interesting things, I do not initiate in exciting ways, I do not talk dirty ever, I do not wake him up so he can get up with the kids, etc... It is allmost like he has been sitting back waiting for me to kick everything off in a very passive way rather than instigating any change himself.


Sweetie this is on you. Every time you 'discuss' this with him he hears he's a failure and his only recourse to protect himself is to put the blame on you. This is why I want you to stop talking. What you're doing is counterproductive and only serves to make you feel worse.



> I can see that the attempts he *has* made, I have chastized because I felt they were not enough. May be I should have shown more appreciation at the time? I find it hard when I guess I am expecting him to stop his efforts... and he allways does, every time. I feel that thanking him for a token effort makes it look like I am happy with a token effort.


See this is what I'm talking about. Yes you train people how to treat you. When he does ANYTHING you like even if it's small you show genuine appreciation. If you appreciate the token efforts enough he will get addicted to it and will be driven to do more. Again though this isn't a quick fix. This takes MONTHS. It's not like you can be happy with a token effort on Wed and have him all in by Sat. You have to consistently show that you are happy when he does try.

And if I haven't mentioned it today...STOP TALKING. Not completely just less and not another complaint regarding him. Not one single one.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Ok, just skimming through, but you're right, we're in very similar positions. I could talk about how little sleep I've had in the past 8 years for days. My younger daughter is a difficult child, too. Lovely, but difficult (understatement!). Hugs. We both need a nice long spa week.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Spa week... Sounds good to me!

Not a good day today. Wondering why we are together as neither of us are that happy. I know every day life is not thrilling. But I have nothing to look forward to. Sent him the lyrics of a song I thought was poignant given our circumstances, and he did not get it at all. Stupid me. I feel so lonely.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

walkingwounded said:


> Sent him the lyrics of a song I thought was poignant given our circumstances, and he did not get it at all. Stupid me. I feel so lonely.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're chasing still and that isn't attractive. He needs to chase you not the other way around. Never ever do more or show more interest than he does for you.

Disengage, detach, etc. I know easier said than done but until you learn to love yourself FIRST without him being a factor this isn't going to get better.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

feeling lonely in your marriage is the worst thing. I feel for you.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

It is pretty hard as I still find it difficult just being around him. I just do n ot want to walk round with the weight of the world on my shoulders. Yeah I know it shouldn't matter but who wants to be around a miserable soul? It is not who I want to be. 

Funny thing... My eldest asked me earlier why hadn't I asked about their day? ( With reference to a recent post.)

I explained I thought may be they didn't like it. Eldest said no, they *do* like me asking, and their 'funny face' when I ask is because they are trying to remember stuff about the day. Projection much?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## golfergirl (Dec 8, 2010)

walkingwounded said:


> It is pretty hard as I still find it difficult just being around him. I just do n ot want to walk round with the weight of the world on my shoulders. Yeah I know it shouldn't matter but who wants to be around a miserable soul? It is not who I want to be.
> 
> Funny thing... My eldest asked me earlier why hadn't I asked about their day? ( With reference to a recent post.)
> 
> ...


Honestly - you are who I wish I could be. Good mom, on the ball, fit, just the perfect partner. I think that's why I ask you the hard questions. I wish I was you. You need to be more me - cold hearted beeyotch. Don't give a fvck. Seriously - get it. You are awesome. He is lucky. Know that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

golfergirl said:


> Honestly - you are who I wish I could be. Good mom, on the ball, fit, just the perfect partner. I think that's why I ask you the hard questions. I wish I was you. You need to be more me - cold hearted beeyotch. Don't give a fvck. Seriously - get it. You are awesome. He is lucky. Know that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Haha cold hearted beeyotch... Um that is so not me! Not sure I know how to do that!


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Have to admit that I found it very discouraging that your husband views things as he does, like criticizing you because he thinks that asking the kids about their day is something they dislike. To me, it just shows that there is little depth in the way he views things, like the relationship. Guess what? I probably don't have to tell you that it is possible for kids to find your questions awkward, and yet fun, while still experiencing a deep sense of security in knowing that their mother actually really cares. Really, is anybody really so one-dimensional, as your husband tries to view things?

When he gets to the place where he can see things deeper, like finding beauty in the way you care for your kids, and make every holiday perfect, he'll begin to grow in his ability to connect.

But what about now? In my opinion, he probably hasn't seen the changes you are striving for, because you are still self-checking through him, and the way he responds to you. Remember that when you set your feet firmly into the path of finding your acceptance in yourself, he will sense it more profoundly than any words you can say. He will see that he has to join you if he doesn't want to be left alone. Its the little things, like knowing that you are building a legacy through your children by the daily traditions you establish, and believing it so strongly that you just look at him like a kid who doesn't get it when he criticizes you. Believe in yourself. 

My grandmother's people believe that the woman holds the spirit of the marriage. In the engagement ceremony, I said words to symbolize that I was cutting the ties to others within my spirit in order to find peace and beauty through my wife's spirit. When others hear this, they often don't realize that this isn't just american indian spirit-talk. It is a realization that relationships are driven more by what we perceive than what is said. If your husband sees the changes in you, it will say more than all the arguments and discussions ever can.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

walkingwounded said:


> Funny thing... My eldest asked me earlier why hadn't I asked about their day? ( With reference to a recent post.)
> 
> I explained I thought may be they didn't like it. Eldest said no, they *do* like me asking, and their 'funny face' when I ask is because they are trying to remember stuff about the day. Projection much?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Told ya. 

It's your husband who is bored with it not them.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Halien said:


> Have to admit that I found it very discouraging that your husband views things as he does, like criticizing you because he thinks that asking the kids about their day is something they dislike. To me, it just shows that there is little depth in the way he views things, like the relationship.


Agree now the million dollar question is why? Why does he have such a low value on relationships? Is he unhappy with the domestic life? He keeps saying in a roundabout way he's bored, doesn't want anyone to talk to him, is he in the beginnings of some MLC or is he depressed? I really don't know but there is a root cause I guarantee it.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

I ask the kids about their day as a way of connecting with them. To engage them and show them I am interested in them and what they have been doing. I do this sat at the dinner table each evening so yeah it is a routine I guess. And yeah most of the time it is pretty mundane but I *like* even knowing the mundane stuff. I like knowing their thoughts and how they tick. And I would like to think it is a nice family ritual.

I got an unprompted text message from him today. One of the kids has been ill ( again, was not that long since they were ill before), and I have been feeling pretty stressed and tired, broken sleep etc. Mentioned I would love to get away just for a night at the weekend. He said:

"I am very lucky to have you, you're an exceptional mother and a wonderful wife I love you very much. I will see if my mom can have the boys over the weekend x"

Also just wanted to say that even if I do not respond to every point, all the good stuff is filed away so thanks guys x


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## golfergirl (Dec 8, 2010)

Lets see if he follows up his words with actions!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

golfergirl said:


> Lets see if he follows up his words with actions!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes he did! Arranged for his mom to take the kids. Love them but it was a well appreciated break, it has been a long week!

I am noticing little things. He is clearly making an effort, with stuff like a good bye kiss in the morning and randomly planting a kiss on my lips when I do not expect it. Last night I fell asleep on the sofa and I can vaguely remember him beckoning me to stretch my legs out. When I woke up he was stroking and rubbing my legs. He never usually does his without me asking. There have been other things too, similar but all noticed.

GTG but will be back later.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Today was not a good day.

We changed over lay in days ( he usually has Saturday) as he is going out today for beers so will no doubt have a sore head in the morning.

He came in while I was in bed and made some comment about me being on the clock for 11am to get up and he was timing me. This wound me up hugely ( and I cannot overemphasize how much) because for a long time now *he* has been the one who frequently sleeps in late and past the time we agreed we would both get up. I recently started dealing with it differently and making a point in a non confrontational way which has clearly made an impression on him. And he has brought out the "hypocrite" card. Yeah he *hates* it but he does not GET what I am doing. It is like he is blind to the complete irony of HIM telling ME that *I* need to get up on time!

We started to get in to an argument but I broke it up by saying there was no point discussing it.

He then said I had been in a pissy mood all week and what was *really* wrong?

I had actually been in a good mood this week. I said our realities were clearly not aligned and what had I done to make him think I had been in a bad mood? He had nothing for that one.

I realized later that we had not had sex all week. Now, I have been on my period and he is pretty grossed out with period sex. OK, his feelings, yeah I do not mind but I am not going to press it. But there is another pattern I noticed a while ago... That he does not press *any* kind of sexual affection in the week of my period. I would say he thinks my libido switches off during this week, but he just does... not... think.

Interestingly he has ( as I mentioned in my immediately previous post) started doing more non sexual affection things. And made a comment saying he felt like he *had* given me affection. I explained there was a difference between sexual and non sexual affection. And he said, if that was what you wanted, then you should have SAID that... Wow well it's not like I haven't allready said this before...!

This is hard, so hard. I really want to SHAKE him sometimes! He demeans my feelings when I say we haven't had sex all week... Allways says "it's only a week, can't you go a week?" I know I'm pretty early in to this thing but how do I know when to keep going and when to quit?


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

On a bit of a downer right now. Was difficult to get to sleep earlier and now am awake with things running through my head.

H came home last night very drunk. I was expecting it. He went out around 4pm, came back may be 11.30pm, had been drinking the whole time and not eaten a thing. He had promised me we would have some special time but I knew he would be in no fit state. I had to help him to bed with a bowl by the side of the bed as he felt sick.

He does this around every couple of months. Meets up with male family members and gets massively drunk. Means he is out of commission for most of the day after which means me picking up the slack at a time of the week when I am usually exhausted.

I do not mind him letting off steam now and again. But he inevitably feels hungover, won't be able to do anything all day, then by evening makes a remarkable recovery and goes out for a couple more beers. Shows where his priorities lie on these days.

I have been seriously considering what life would be like without him. What would I actually miss? This is what was running through my mind last night. I genuinely believed a while ago that one partner making changes could be enough to help the marriage, but now I am thinking, what if he does not change?

May be I am disheartened because he does not see any changes. He has articulated as much a couple of times. I feel I am changing. I certainly think differently and handle things differently. I understand about doing this for me but yeah, I still hope he is going to get on board. I mean, I know that if he didn't... that I would be OK. I would be sad, and disappointed. But at this point I am really questioning what he is actually bringing to my life. I can think of practical stuff but I don't want him to be here because it is easier with the kids, or financially. Yet there are moments when we feel really connected. Then times I feel the opposite. I don't know.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

If it makes you feel better I was there 2.5 years ago. Still remember it as if it were yesterday. Was so unbelievably down about my marriage. I had done all this work on myself and felt like I wasn't getting anywhere with him. Despite us getting along very well and me being very much in love I longed for passion and fun. I began to contemplate a life without him. I'd have to get a job, I could rent a nearby apartment and we could coparent. It would be hard but at least I wouldn't have to be lonely while being married. KWIM?

One particularly sad morning I told him I didn't think I wanted to be married to him anymore. He had genuine tears in his eyes and that was what made me stay and keep working. It would be another year from that point before I found a ***** in his armor. 

The old saying it gets worse before it gets better was true for me. And even then there is no guarantee that it will ever get better. That's what sucks. However I finally got to that place where I was sick and tired of being sick and tired. When you get there suddenly you're not so scared to dare to make a different life for yourself.

What I'm saying is you're on the right track. Just know that no matter what happens you will be okay.


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## golfergirl (Dec 8, 2010)

As someone said - does bare minimum to keep you quiet. His stretches of thoughtfulness not cutting it anymore so taking it to the point of making it all about you. You are making lasting changes - he hasn't figured it out yet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Mavash, I *so* know what you mean.

I want some fun and excitement. Oh yeah within a happy marriage though. I mean, there *is* a reason we got together and it was not because we both liked to sit and watch TV in silence ya know?

Woke up a little earlier and was in a real fog of "downness." Now I feel a little brighter. Thinking of things ahead, for me. Focussing on how *I* have changed and improved myself, and also being clear that despite how I feel/felt, H *has* shown small positive changes. I do not want to dismiss those and dishearten him as I have a feeling these could be more permanent changes.


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## golfergirl (Dec 8, 2010)

walkingwounded said:


> Mavash, I *so* know what you mean.
> 
> I want some fun and excitement. Oh yeah within a happy marriage though. I mean, there *is* a reason we got together and it was not because we both liked to sit and watch TV in silence ya know?
> 
> Woke up a little earlier and was in a real fog of "downness." Now I feel a little brighter. Thinking of things ahead, for me. Focussing on how *I* have changed and improved myself, and also being clear that despite how I feel/felt, H *has* shown small positive changes. I do not want to dismiss those and dishearten him as I have a feeling these could be more permanent changes.


Boundary needs to be set about his drinking and guys night out. It is totally interfering with family. Maybe Mavash has ideas on nipping that a bit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I'm DONE being my husband's mother. He's a grown man and I'm his fabulous, loving wife. If he'd rather get drunk than be with me then so be it. Then I get to decide in the grand scheme of things how to respond.

I totally get this relationship thing now and it has NOTHING to do with trying to change the other person. It has to do with changing ME and my response to him.

The irony is the more I let him go the more he wants to be with me. It really is the strangest thing. LOL And you can't just go through the motions and ACT like you're letting them go you have to really truly let them go.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Mavash,I agree with you on this.

OP, you remind me of ME a year ago. No way would I go back to that way of life. I got my own life, and I'm so much happier.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

H has a hobby he is into at the moment. A few evenings a week he will disappear off and he will be doing his stuff elsewhere in the house.

He showed me some of his work the other day, was really good. He asked if I minded him spending time doing this. I replied no, I like his hobbies and I like him having hobbies. I added that as a side effect I like him going off because it means I get some space after the kids are in bed, to lounge about with the laptop and TV to decompress on my own.

His face was a picture. I swear. He asked, are you sure? What, you don't mind? Really? You like me being out of the way?

Clearly he thought I was pining after him and clearly he LIKES the thought of that! He looked genuinely confused as he realized I was not kidding and I meant it.

Being honest probably a while ago I would have wondered why he wanted to spend time outside doing that stuff and not being with me. Very unhealthy. I started to realize a while ago how much I used to like spending time alone ( does not happen often now!) and try to create opportunities at home where I can do this, to just "be", or read, or catch up on the laptop, anything like that.

So that is good.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Hear that 'click'? That's the sound of his mind in the early stages of recognizing a new reality. Something just clicked in his mind, and he is now understanding that maybe your life doesn't revolve around him after all. It only takes a few clicks, a few doses of reality, before it suddenly dawns on him that you are not the one sure thing in his life, and maybe he has to do things to keep you closer. 

Thing is, there is no sure recipe to this process. Mavash is right, I think, when she says that it is a long process, and nothing is certain, but I enjoy reading about how her marriage finally became balanced around mutual respect and care for each other. 

My situation is different, but I keep experiencing things that show how much my wife and I have grown in finding our core balance. I used to feel so alone because my wife struggled so much with depression that she needed me to be the strong one. We moved, and my wife could tell that dealing with the sale of our previous home was really getting to me. The relocation company had incredibly impractical demands for repairs, and a blizzard damaged the siding, yet I am a thousand miles away. We finally got through it, but I remember overhearing my wife as she was calling neighbors to let the sevice guys in, and setting up payment invoices to be reimbursed through my company. I asked, and she said, "you shouldn't have to feel alone when thngs are difficult. I can see it in your eyes now." Of course, we did what any rational person would do in such a touching moment - we bought tons of chocolate and ice cream and ate till we were both sick.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Aw I like that story Halien. Sweet and funny. I also like the idea of a core balance. I have been thinking in terms of finding my center, but may be further along the line WE may find our balance. I hope so. It's stuff like this that further reinforces that this *is* a journey. It doe not happen in the click of a finger.

I am also getting the idea of giving without expectation and saying no. It is something I am also working on in every day life. It is really very liberating to say no without feeling I have to apologize or explain. Also the giving thing... Just not giving. The feeling that I am not under obligation to do so much of the stuff I was doing that I thought would show me as the greatest wife. And that if I want, I can do stuff and not expect anything in return, just do it because I want to.

I have noticed though that when H shows some degree of affection, closeness and intimacy, I do regress a little and start initiating stuff. Particularly in terms of giving affection. So I no longer initiate kisses, hugs etc because I know the likely outcome. Just very recently it has not seemed such a big issue because he *has* been more affectionate. We will see how this pans out.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

So have been noticing H's 'thing' about getting me to talk dirty is now his way of pushing me to initiate. I am not sure if he thinks he is being helpfull by opening it up as a 'safe' way to initiate, that is, something he likes that I would know he would respond to, or he is just trying to spice it up.

It has wound me up. Why he cannot invest time in attempting to make amends for the hurt and damage he caused. Instead he is now trying to get things back to the old status quo of me initiating without actually addressing how we got to that position in the first place.

Why?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

He doesn't think he did anything wrong is my best guess.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> He doesn't think he did anything wrong is my best guess.


Hmm. I do not know. I suspect he has acknowledged on some level that it is a real problem between us and either a) does not know *how* to make good on what he did or b) does not want to _openly _ acknowledge so is somehow going AROUND the problem instead of dealing with it head on. So he gets the results he wants without putting any work in.

I was so pissed last night. We were sat together watching TV. I was freshly showered, hair washed, smelling good, nice lingerie on ( I love nice lingerie just for me.) I was in the mood but there was no way I was initiating any thing. We were talking and stuff and he put my legs across his legs and stroked my legs ( something nice he has started doing quite a lot.) But nothing else.

Then I realized the utter stupidity of this situation. How CRAZY is this... Here's me, sat wanting sex. I do not feel I can articulate this to him, and WILL NOT. He is sat there, oblivious. I got a little angry then thought, well he is not a mind reader, how can I be angry at him not knowing? If I sit and seethe, who is this hurting? Because it sure as hell isn't him!

I also realized how stupid it is that this ridiculous situation has gone on for nearly a year now and he refuses to do ANYTHING. I don't get it. For years he had a loving wife who would happily initiate and everything was fine. Now I won't and he acts like it is all fine when it isn't. This permeates every day of my life and I sit and look at him just not bothered and think, WTF is this? What is it? Because it isn't functional, I know that.

I was so tempted to text him about it last night after I went to bed but I didn't... Thinking why, what's the point?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Been there done that and like I said before the problem wasn't what I thought it was. My husband had a boat load of insecurities and therefore he just checked out. Lost touch with his sexuality, his kids, me, everything. All he seemed to care about was work and his family. And that is debatable.

I truly don't know what's wrong with your husband I don't. Im just relaying my story. My husband has chosen now to go to therapy. He sees all this now but just can't fix it on his own. But before I got to this place with him I had to let him go. I quit expecting sex, accepted him as is and made steps to meet my own needs. The anger I had was only making things worse so I had to let that go too. My anger came because I was blaming him for not meeting my needs. Yes I have needs within the marriage but I had never learned to take care of myself so this was on me. My self esteem was tied up in sex and I had to change that. I began to believe I was fabulous regardless of whether he wanted to have sex with me or not,

I don't know how long I would have stayed like this as I did long to be desired. However I recognized I couldn't talk my way out of something I behaved my way into. That was on me.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Mavash, can you explain those last two sentences? What specific behaviors are you referring to in your circumstances?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Had a weird exchange with H last night.

He told me he feels connected to me through sex. Very confused as he vacillates between "it's just sex" and the connection through it. I thought I was gonna find out something earth shatteringly usefull... LOL. More fool me.

Also more of the how boring I am. He hates me asking about his day. He says he does the same thing every day, in the same places. I said I did not realize this... which was why I was asking! Says I am so predictable... That he knows exactly what I am going to say when he gets in from work, and in what order... Yeah I was hurt. To me, I was being interested... And I recall VERY well a time when he told me I never asked about his day!

He is not going to text me in the day, he is too busy and might get in to trouble at work. This is fine, I understand. Strangely though this rule only applies to me because he is perfectly able to text his friend. And when this comes up he allways says how he appreciates receiving texts and might even reply to them IF he got them... Hilarious really considering I used to text him a number of times and just stopped weeks ago, and now he is saying he *may* grace me with a reply if I am good enough to text him...

Just offloading really.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I don't like your husband again.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

He is stuck in a "woe is me" attitude cycle, the power role, and it will be hard to make progress until he stops thinking so much about what you do/don't do for him and worries more about his own 'doing'. Seriously, he could see beauty in the way you create daily traditions that show that you are interested, but he chooses to look at it from his alter ego side. He is blind to the grace and beauty you bring by enjoying nice lingerie because a lazy mind never takes the time to realize how special it is. Please don't be tempted to sink to that level. Remember the mindset you are trying to maintain: "Do" and "Be" because it is the standard that you choose for yourself, instead of being a responder to his whims and moods. "Do" the things that the future-you wants to be known for in the way you relate to him, and "be" happy and content, especially in his presence, because it comes from inner strength (even if you have to pretend it for a while). The critical/negativity cycle only lasts until the person realizes that there is absolutely no power in it, and they see the need to "do" because they fear that roles have truly changed. Then, they need to take the "supplicant" role just to get your attention back. It is amazing how this dynamic shift to the supplicant role, or whatever you want to call the one who is appealing to the other, can suddenly make a person's critical thoughts disappear. 

I'm just trying to reinforce what we've talked about before, hoping it can help you stay focused.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

It's possible he's not happy with you detaching so he hurt you back.

He likes it better when he's in control of the relationship.

Just a thought.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> It's possible he's not happy with you detaching so he hurt you back.
> 
> He likes it better when he's in control of the relationship.
> 
> Just a thought.


I was wondering if that could be a part of it. Reinforces how important it is to tread carefully through the process, always remembering that the goal is to ultimately find a respectful balance, which will positively impact him in the long run.


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

> He told me he feels connected to me through sex. Very confused as he vacillates between "it's just sex" and the connection through it


After this comment I like him more. There is more humanity...fragile, imperfect humanity here than in all the macho, aloof garbage you've shared. Women don't realize that men have feelings just as women do. We are just taught by society to keep them in check and never show them. When he said it was just sex he was not in tune to those feelings and now, somehow he is. Halien's click. Many relationship problems would be alleviated if men were aware of their feelings, accepted them as normal, and found a way to express them. 

Keep those clicks coming.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Crazy making behavior, that's what I call it.
He's not happy, and it's your fault. 

Do what you need to do to not take it personally. Just his opinion of the day. You are not boring, or uninteresting. Fitness shet. Don't fall for it. Try even telling him "well, that's your opinion. I don't think I'm boring". There is power in saying it aloud.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

He came back from work. And guess what...?

He wanted to tell me all about his day.

No I couldn't even make it up. I didn't ask, and he felt he had to tell me.

...

:scratchhead:


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Makes perfect sense to me. 

I'd explain it but I don't know if I can.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Must be Friday. Too tired to be PA.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> Makes perfect sense to me.
> 
> I'd explain it but I don't know if I can.


I thought guilt. I cannot say a day is enough for him to have reflected and got where I was coming from in being interested in his day. Not that it is that complicated to get.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

deejov said:


> Must be Friday. Too tired to be PA.


:lol:

Good point.

Regardless what does it matter he's acting like a pouty, bored, unhappy preteen. I should know I have one. He's 12 and he's more moody than I am. LOL


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> :lol:
> 
> Good point.
> 
> Regardless what does it matter he's acting like a pouty, bored, unhappy preteen. I should know I have one. He's 12 and he's more moody than I am. LOL


You guys think he is being PA?

Had not considered that one. As it goes he sounded pretty genuine and keen to tell me. That is why it threw me. It was *allmost* like he was trying to be overly nice. It was weird.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

LOL not today.... but yesterday he was being PA. 
Maybe today he's just being himself. Lucky you!


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

deejov said:


> LOL not today.... but yesterday he was being PA.
> Maybe today he's just being himself. Lucky you!


LOL right I getcha


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## golfergirl (Dec 8, 2010)

walkingwounded said:


> LOL right I getcha


Honey - please don't bore me with details of your day. He he that's passive aggressive. Might be fun though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Walking,
Just like you, your hubby has moments \ days when he is feeling insecure or thinking about the past, etc.

I used to take things as black and white too. Then I learned, for my H, it's a matter of what side of his brain I'm talking to.

If it's the side that is stewing about old things, then the PA behavior is expected. More due to him feeling bad about himself, and instead of doing anything about it, it's easier to blame someone else. 

Not being happy manifests itself in many ways. 

Some days, he is able to simply just allow today happen. And the PA guard isn't there. 

It's not easy to do.... but if you can detach him from his behavior, and try to appreciate who he is really is, then what he says doesn't really matter. His actions matter. And you have said lately that he's "acting" more affectionate. 

Your actions speak so loudly I cannot hear what you said.

There is no need to figure out what he is doing, or trying to do. 
He's just reacting and blameshifting and doing what he knows how to do. 

The reason it doesn't matter is because you are your own person. An awesome one. Perfect, because there is no one else like you. 

All this crap is just meant to make you forget that you are A-okay, and make you take the blame for his issues. Don't do it. Let him figure his own life out, and you enjoy being happy. Maybe he will take the hint and just relax and be happy too. Maybe.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Had to share something. I do not know if any one will *get* this but will share any way...

I had a great hobby I took a hiatus from a few months ago. Partly due to family commitments and partly due to anxiety and feeling down, when I was feeling bad I just did not want to face going out. The family bit was in part due to me feeling some guilt for taking time out just for me and that it was somehow not fair to the family.

I allways said I would return to it... I cannot explain this well but I knew a point would come when it felt "right" to return to it. When I viewed it again as being fun rather than something like a chore.

I have gotten to that point. It was today. I was doing the sport recreationally with the two older kids and I just felt passionate and excited about it again. That zest to learn more and be good at it. So I plan to return to practice this week.

Just wanted to share the ramblings of a crazy woman


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Not crazy, perfectly SANE! Go girl!
So happy to hear this.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Baaaaaaaad day today.

Detaching completely. Would be quite happy to walk around with my music on through my headphones and zone him out, unfortunately not sure the kids would be too impressed!

Need to let go of my frustrations around him not making any effort to understand or meet my needs. It seems to go in phases, for days I can be completely unaffected, then something happens that bothers me and it floods back. His laid back attitude makes me want to shake him sometimes and scream, whywhywhy? Why do you go through life so unaffected and choose to ignore my pain?

Then I remind myself I can only control ME, the frustration is understandable but futile. He either will or will not and that is on him, not me. I can only choose how to deal with whichever path he is taking with it.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

walkingwounded said:


> His laid back attitude makes me want to shake him sometimes and scream, whywhywhy? Why do you go through life so unaffected and choose to ignore my pain?


Got upset with my husband yesterday too except I'm past the wanting to scream at him part and he will talk to me. 

I've said to you many many times my husband is laid back, goes through life unaffected appearing to ignore my pain and it's all a big fat lie. He opened up to me and fessed up to the truth and it is the exact opposite of all this and had you told me this years ago I would have thought you were crazy. LOL

He does care he just doesn't know how to communicate it. Instead he shuts down emotionally.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

I could not say if my H is the same. My sheer frustration is at the fact that every time it comes up, it is like I am hitting him with a brand new revelation. By his reaction you could easily believe it was the first time I had *ever* mentioned it to him.

Couple that with me having been very specific on multiple occasions over what I needed from him, and he must be deaf and blind to not comprehend just why it keeps coming up... He appears to really not get his part in this.

I have given up trying to help him get it. I have now freed myself of trying to teach and mentor him in to getting it. Not my job.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

LOL my husband is just NOW hearing me. He's acting like he's hearing this information for the first time. It's almost comical. My theory is he tuned me out years and years ago. He just quit listening.

And now I've stopped talking unless HE initiates the conversation which actually does happen now that I've shut up. 

Last night I was fully prepared to go to sleep not having resolved anything. I was calm and I refused to discuss it again. I'd already told him what was bothering me and the ball was in his court. I rolled over and that was the end of it. Don't know how long it took but I then heard this quiet voice "can we talk?". Could have knocked me over with a feather. We talked for a couple of hours and ended up having great sex.

The whole time I mostly listened. I didn't shame, I was vulnerable, I spoke clearly, I expressed how much I loved him, I reassured him etc. None of this would have happened though until I let him go FIRST.


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

It might still be your job if you want something different than what you have. You may still have to OWN it.

It took me a while to understand how and why I process things my wife says as I do. I think men have to filter what comes at us before we 1) respond and 2) set a course of action. Women think we are not listening but more likely we are ciphering through what is feelings based/emotionally charged and deciding what concrete action/change is needed...if any. My adult daughter just acted on something my wife "erupted" at her which was not completely thought out and a mistake. It is harder to explain to another woman the need for repeated conversations, a few probing questions, and LOTS of emotional support before we go and change course.

We become fairly thick skinned because allot of it could leave a mark if we internalize it. That, and we don't show ourselves emotionally very often as society thinks less of sniveling, needy men. I love my wife and she loves me but I could get myself into big trouble replaying things that popped out of her when she is "purging" and holding them up like stone tablets. Men probably hear more than you think...and care less.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

I understand C. And Mavash I hope to get to that point eventually. It is a frustrating and very lonely journey and recently, I am not even sure I want to.

I have spoken to him a little about what I am doing. More to alleviate any misunderstandings along the way. I am getting a lot of "well you never do that for me" so I have had to explain that I *used* to but felt I was giving too much. He has majorly started to pull out the "you are a hypocrite" card. 

I do notice a low level of positive gestures. I think these are "safe" things he has picked that he feels comfortable with. He still shows no signs of tackling the bigger issues.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

walking,
if what you are doing is good for you, makes you feel happiness, then it's the right thing to do. 

It is never ever wrong to put yourself first once in awhile. Because the benefits are for everyone. He's getting a benefit out of it, but you don't need to know that 

I once spoke out of resentment, and simply said "If you wanted to do these things... you would". So now I realise you just simply don't want to. I'll accept that. Because it's better than the alternative, which is silence and zero progress. 

It took my H 3 days to respond to that. But the point he got out of it was people will make their own assumptions.

And I learned I was doing the same thing. But I made it clear that no answer \ no progress wasn't acceptable. Or I will just assume my own answer.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

But that is it, isn't it... it is so easy to assume what is going on in someone else's mind in the absence of anything actually being articulated directly. I guess my mind fills in the gaps with what to me is "logical" based on my perception and experience.

It is something I have been working on, to not assume. H has called me on it a lot, and he is right. It is so easy to do and it feels natural and right. Learned behavior. It shows the gap in communication. It is a shame really because I go along with these assumptions as "truth" and they cause so much trouble. It is only after laboring under these assumptions and them causing arguments that he actually comes out and says the truth. After all that time.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

In the book surrendered wife she has a chapter where she discusses this very thing. If I wasn't so lazy I'd go get it and tell you how she said to handle. 

Maybe later....

For now just remember what assume means.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> In the book surrendered wife she has a chapter where she discusses this very thing. If I wasn't so lazy I'd go get it and tell you how she said to handle.
> 
> Maybe later....
> 
> For now just remember what assume means.


 will do! I need to check that book out. Have been reading a lot, got quite a collection. Think H read a bit of the 5 LLs when I got it but that was it. He is not a fan of self help books. Thinks he does not need other people's advice.

I wish when I posted that I had some amazing update. That H had done something significant and meaningfull. I know not to rush this on my part and do it for me. But yeah I do wonder what I will do months and years down the line if there is nothing much from him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

All you have is today. Try not to think about tomorrows worries. Today is bad enough. 

Just kidding. 

Oh and I've read probably 300 self help books. It's a big factor in how I got to here.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> All you have is today. Try not to think about tomorrows worries. Today is bad enough.
> 
> Just kidding.
> 
> Oh and I've read probably 300 self help books. It's a big factor in how I got to here.


Yeah I like the self help books. I like exposing myself to other ways and paths of thinking. I feel like each one is opening up a bit more of a new world for me.

It is hard still. I feel like I have changed so much allready and H, well, has not and does not show much willingness or openness to. He said something the other day about not changing people. I took that in its context to mean he is happy how he is thanks very much. Of course my assumption may be wrong  but knowing him, it could well be right on the money.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I've learned the hard way that ALL of my assumptions about my husband were dead WRONG.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

The amazing updates I enjoy are that you are feeling more yourself, doing things for yourself, and feeling more confident.

That is the most important thing. And all you really control. The one thing you can change, in leaps and bounds.

It is a leap of faith. But from reading your posts for a long time, I still have the same thought. It's also what he wants. For you to be happy, all on your own, like you used to be. 

He's not willing to settle for the half you. He'd rather hold out for the deeply passionate, real version of you. A real connection, not just sex. He's wanting you to meet him where he is. Which might mean accepting him as he is, today. Just for today. Accepting instead of asking. It can make things look a whole lot different from that point of view.

How do you do that? 
It's hard. You make yourself think of every positive thing he did today. And tell yourself you are grateful for that. And you don't ask for more. Today.

If you find yourself "wanting", ask yourself what it is really truly about.

You might find that you are getting the love you need to feel loved.
But just not used to accepting it, or unable to accept it.
Because you don't feel worthy of being really loved.
Harsh stuff.


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## themagicalbeing2013 (Mar 19, 2013)

It seems that you are trying to change too much for him.. he needs to understand what you want and try to find a place in the middle where you can feel good about the situation.. I hope he understand that he needs to take care of you


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Profound stuff deejov. I just do not know where it went wrong though. We used to be fine. Or I thought we were.

I just cannot see he wants to give anything more. And I cannot lie and say that I *am* happy with the state of play.

He thinks I want him to be someone different to who he is. I actually want him to return to doing stuff he used to do, which he claims he never did. I also need some heartfelt reassurances over how he feels about me. His inappropriate behavior with his co worker really hurt me and since that I have questioned his feelings for me. I no longer feel like his queen. I don't feel like I am a priority. It oozes out from him... It is awful to feel like I am another thing on his list of things to deal with... I never see any joy or passion towards me from him. Never.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Walking,
Have you thought of giving up on this way of thinking, as opposed to giving up on him?

Love Yourself First


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

I get it...and I don't get it.

When I was walking about throwing out love here, there and everywhere, he was sneaking about with his co-worker at work. It threw me a curveball. Rocked my confidence. I couldn't ( and still do not if am being truthfull) work out why if I was that great, he was toying with playing away.

I get the thinking that whatever he did was something within *him*, and not me. But then I think, well, if he was insistent that yes I *am* that great and he fvcked up, then why can't he apply a liberal dose of tender loving care? I just genuinely cannot understand why he runs away from it and would go through all of this angst.

And it does not matter how much I love myself, if he doesn't love me then there is not any point to this is there?

He has said some pretty cutting things this last week or two. One I can deal with. Another I am still turning over in my head... I won't go into it here but it is along the theme of letting me go along thinking one thing when something else turned out to be the case... And this is for YEARS... I mean it is a complete mindfvck. He doesn't get why it has hurt me but I have literally spent years thinking the reason behind the behavior in question was to do with how he felt about me ( or how he *didn't* feel.) He led me in to believing this and worst of all, *let* me believe it. That is what I cannot wrap my head around. I mean, how do you deal with stuff like that?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

You are correct he may not love you. 

You won't know for sure until you completely set him free.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Are you talking what we have spoken about on here, as in focussing completely on me?

Or actual separation?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

walkingwounded said:


> Are you talking what we have spoken about on here, as in focussing completely on me?
> 
> Or actual separation?


The first.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

OK. It is hard. I was kinda reviewing my progress earlier.

I have moved forward. Have I completely let him go? I do, then I bounce back with a bundle of pent up frustrations. So I go from one extreme to the other. 

I literally am walking on a perpetual verge of leaving him. Every misdemeanor has me thinking, what am I doing here? I swing here and there and it really is not helping matters.

I am still, somewhere inside, looking to him to save the day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

walkingwounded said:


> OK. It is hard. I was kinda reviewing my progress earlier.
> 
> I have moved forward. Have I completely let him go? I do, then I bounce back with a bundle of pent up frustrations. So I go from one extreme to the other.
> 
> ...


And this is a BIG problem. You see this right?


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Yes. As in a complete and utter waste of time. It is *never* going to happen even if it *was* the thing that needed to.

Having a bad day today. *****ing and nastiness. Both of us. He has got his "I know best" hat on, which usually I can laugh at but today he is super annoying.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Don't feel bad I'm pissed at my husband today too. He had to work today and I specifically asked how long he'd be gone. His story is he said most of the day but I swear that's NOT what he said. Had I know that I would have done things completely different today.

This after we had a discussion last night where I realize how far out of touch he is with himself.

He's all apologetic and dying to make it up to me but I can't let it go.

We both suck. Lol


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> Don't feel bad I'm pissed at my husband today too. He had to work today and I specifically asked how long he'd be gone. His story is he said most of the day but I swear that's NOT what he said. Had I know that I would have done things completely different today.
> 
> This after we had a discussion last night where I realize how far out of touch he is with himself.
> 
> ...


So how do you handle that? Interesting because my H would not be all apologetic. He would say he knew what he said and would be more bothered about being right than me being upset.

He chilled out a bit not long ago. Was kidding around with the kids and they were all enjoying themselves, it was fun to watch. He joined me in. Then I had to get up and walk past him and he caught my arm. In a split second I went to sit on his knee. Instead of him putting his arms around me, which in that instant I really thought he would do given his playful mood, he mad a big show of dropping his knee. I couldn't work out what he was doing but then I realized he was saying I was too heavy to sit on his knee. I thought he meant it and I got up, then he told me he was joking. Way to spoil a moment. Apparently he did not know I was into "having moments." Well no I am not because I have had to train myself *not* to have moments. Sometimes he is so fricking stupid I wonder how he gets through the day.

Rant over.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

At the moment I'm not handling it because I'm hijacked emotionally. This is on me. He just triggered me to days when he worked all the time and didn't give a crap about me. 

He didn't used to apologize so this is new. He came home and said he was working fast and hard to get home to me but I don't believe him. Again this is on me.

I'll have to swallow my pride soon and forgive him for being well a man. Lol.

Your husband still sounds angry. That was a passive aggressive move. I think you trigger him but he doesn't realize it.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Passive aggressive? It has been running through my mind. I am not sure.

That scenario as I have mentioned a number of times, plays out similarly *every* time I initiate some kind of affection. When I *do* do something, usually a hug or go for a kiss, he has a stock selection of responses and I can guarantee he will come up with one of them probably 99% of the time.

I'd be expecting one of these:

* for a hug, a complete no response, so I am hugging a statue. When I step away he *then* asks what's the matter, and says he didn't have time to respond or he did not realize what I was doing

* I hug him then he says something dry or funny to him, like, "aw does someone want some affection?" or "what are you doing?" He might say this with a smile or not, but if I express upset he *allways* says he was joking. He might then hug me back, very lightly, not really giving it anything unless I call him on it then he does but is allways the one to stop first.

* I kiss him and he carries on completely like I hadn't done anything.

* I kiss him and he like above says something "funny".

* I go for some random kind of affection and instead of reciprocating, he like above makes some kind of funny comment or makes a joke out of it, like he did yesterday when I went to sit on his knee.

Then there is the moment when I simply get up and walk off and I can GUARANTEE he will jump up, come after me asking, "what's the matter? What's up?" and I just cannot work out if he is being completely innocent or PRETENDING to be in a passive aggressive fashion.

This is why I do not really go for affection any more. I genuinely cannot work out what is going on in his mind. He never used to do this. When I have called him on it he allways claims he was not being serious, he was joking, he was being funny. He cannot offer anything as to *why* he can not just reciprocate.

I cannot even say how soul destroying it is to go along having to keep checking myself that I AM NOT GOING TO BE AFFECTIONATE TO MY HUSBAND. Yes when I type it out it looks and sounds like utter stupidity doesn't it? It is not my natural state. I mean, I get the not doing it because I know how he is going to react. But what is the ultimate aim of this? To avoid rejection? Yes? But that is ridiculous because by the very ACT of not doing it I am admitting that my H does not WANT to show me affection, or CANNOT. And that is the REAL problem is it not? I do not know how I deal with that?

I am going to try and sleep some more now


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

walking, what a good insight. Thanks for sharing.

I can relate to your points. PA type behavior.

The new me... just doesn't accept it. I don't accept a non-hug. I say "no, give me a real hug". I'm playful about it. Or I will stand in front of him and teasingly block his way and say "no no, no getting by until you give me a hug".

Try swatting him playfully, telling him to give you a proper hug, and thanking him for it afterwards. Don't pay attention to what he says. 

The point of it is... I want to give HIM a hug. I don't care what he says about it, because I don't take it personally. How he hugs me or doesn't isn't a measure of how I feel about myself. It isn't.

It's more about me wanting to give some affection. So I tell him to take it. Nicely. 

And honestly, if he is in a foul mood, it usually turns him around. His side benefit, not mine.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

when did it change?

You actually just described the old me. Lol. As much as I longed for affection and intimacy I pushed it away every time he tried to give it to me. This was one of the first things that came out in MC 14 years ago. I wasn't even aware I was doing it but got mad at my husband for stopping the affection.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

There are ways to affirm your boundaries without having a discussion about it and criticizing behavior. Right then and there, you nicely and calmly make it unacceptable. 

The thing I like about it is it is a "now" thing. I don't care what happened yesterday, whatever you are stewing about, in this moment, right now, here's some affection. 

The end result is I have found the PA has little effect. It only works if the person is willing to accept it.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

deejov said:


> There are ways to affirm your boundaries without having a discussion about it and criticizing behavior. Right then and there, you nicely and calmly make it unacceptable.
> 
> The thing I like about it is it is a "now" thing. I don't care what happened yesterday, whatever you are stewing about, in this moment, right now, here's some affection.
> 
> The end result is I have found the PA has little effect. It only works if the person is willing to accept it.


I like what you have written. Gives a different perspective on it.

I cannot get over how funny it is to me that he said he thought I wasn't a person who was in to "having moments." Given this comes up time and time again, I have to laugh at the fact that I have been arguing for ages that I like such moments and he clearly has interpreted this as me NOT liking them...

I have no idea how that works!


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

The crazy making aspect is listening and interpreting what he SAYS.

What does he DO instead?

My H can still drive me crazy with what he says. This weekend was a good example. Says one thing, storms out, 5 hrs later comes back like nothing happened and wants to confirm plans for next weekend (Easter). 

I just shake my head. Most times, it's good advice to take a man "literally". Listen. Carefully.

In some cases, it is not. You have to listen to their actions. 
If their actions are telling you they are being resentful, you have a boundary for that. But it has to be ACTION in return, not words.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

I am really done. Last night he tried. But so many things he said showed me he just did not get it. Wants me to be OK with him hurting me and thinks it does not matter because it is in the past. Is so rigorously protective of his space. 

I can't do this anymore. It is breaking me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

We were sat together last night. He asked me how I was... so I told him. That the same thing bothers me as when he asked me last time, and the time before, and the time before... and recounted the six month rejection and my no initiation policy. I had to tell him because he had no idea what could be bothering me

"It's in the past, why do you keep going over and over it?" Must have felt attacked ( not my intention) as he defended himself and said it is OK for him to say no if he is not in the mood and it is not his job to be constantly in the mood or to have to constantly make himself in the mood.

I said yes of course. But 3 x a week rejections for six months with nasty reasons is not just being not in the mood. And that he has tried to convince me it never happened and that he does not appear bothered that I do not feel comfortable enough to initiate.

He said that latter part ^^^ it doesn't bother him. He does not know why. He has never really thought about it.

I brought up his rejection of affection. Said again he does not know why. He likes his space. Said he feels crowded all of the time by everyone at home and never feels relaxed. Said he does give me affection. Yes he does... but does not accept my shows of affection.

I explained the time frame of his near-EA, then rejection of my initating, and rejection of affection, made it look very much like he just did not find me attractive any more.

He vehemently denies this is the case. Says still that he *does* find me attractive and can see how it would look like he didn't from what I just said.

Things were calm and he beckoned me to snuggle up, so we did. I said it was nice and I was so used to sitting at the other end of the sofa. He said, well, it's nice to have your space

We went upstairs later to cosy up and I wanted to lie and hold him for a while first. He got impatient and said if I just wanted to go to sleep we could just go to bed instead of adult time.

I explained I was enjoying the moment just lying with and holding him because it NEVER happens ( it really never does.) He sighed and said he was trying.

We fooled around and he got up literally as soon as we were done and was off saying he had to finish something off he was doing earlier. It was painfull. I fell asleep on my own as usual.

It is not changing. I can change how I react to it but then I am settling. He is offering scraps. May be I should be gratefull but it is so painfull because he never gives with joy. Allways with a sigh, never a smile and makes it clear verbally or otherwise that it is a chore for him. I cannot do this any more with no view of anything changing.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

And now you see why I announced to my husband after 19 years that I was leaving. And he didn't reject me or have an EA.

There is just only so long you can survive on crumbs of affection.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Yes. I am swinging between wanting to leave and staying and just completely emotionally separating from him. 

We are due to go away this weekend too so no idea what to do.

Funny thing is that now I can see this is about him and not a measure of my value or self worth. The frustration however is overwhelming.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

He is so bound up emotionally that he cannot risk allowing anyone too close. His apathy about being satisfied himself and seeking space flies in the face of your needs and means he does not see what is at stake. Mavash was ready to walk when he finally saw. If you are that serious, he has not heard it or does not believe it.

There are some changes that we are asked to make that we can make promises about and offer nice words. Other changes, challenge our very core, have been part of us for a very long time and exist in the realm of feelings not words. Those can be elusive for a man. Feelings are illogical and outside of our control...they just come, they control us and most men have disdain for things like that. You are challenging him to FEEL something he would rather ignore or deny, and he won't do that until his back is against the wall.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Cre8ify said:


> He is so bound up emotionally that he cannot risk allowing anyone too close. His apathy about being satisfied himself and seeking space flies in the face of your needs and means he does not see what is at stake. Mavash was ready to walk when he finally saw. If you are that serious, he has not heard it or does not believe it.
> 
> There are some changes that we are asked to make that we can make promises about and offer nice words. Other changes, challenge our very core, have been part of us for a very long time and exist in the realm of feelings not words. Those can be elusive for a man. Feelings are illogical and outside of our control...they just come, they control us and most men have disdain for things like that. You are challenging him to FEEL something he would rather ignore or deny, and he won't do that until his back is against the wall.


I think you provide a great insight C, not only in to how men think but particularly how my H thinks.

He very typically tries to smooth over conflict. He is quite charming at times, and whilst that is a great quality generally, he uses it to smooth over conflict which means that the source of the conflict is not properly addressed. It just means we are "OK" on the surface, day to day, but for me the issue is still there. He is so very reluctant to address things, and I think convinces himself that if I am not screaming at him or wanting to talk, that everything is fine. A classic example of which is he had to ASK me what I was talking about when I explained I was bothered about our issues last year. I was not being deliberately vague, I just assumed that as it was such a big issue, he would automatically just know. Just goes to show.

I really feel I have been as fair as I can in addressing the differences in how we think. I have explained the problem, and offered a number of clear, practical examples of things he can do that would help. He perpetuates in cycles, that is, he will make an effort for a couple of weeks then it fades away. It ALLWAYS happens like that. I could even cope with a haphazard effort if he was showing that he was really making an effort.

My suspicion is that he will go through this week with some token efforts then by next week everything will be back to normal.

I don't know what to do. I keep thinking, just give him more time. I want to feel loved and cherished, and I don't. I have half thought of showing him this thread but at this point I think he would halfheartedly look through a couple of pages then say he knows all this *shrugs* Am taking some time to think about how to move forward.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Cre8ify said:


> He is so bound up emotionally that he cannot risk allowing anyone too close. His apathy about being satisfied himself and seeking space flies in the face of your needs and means he does not see what is at stake. Mavash was ready to walk when he finally saw. If you are that serious, he has not heard it or does not believe it.
> 
> There are some changes that we are asked to make that we can make promises about and offer nice words. Other changes, challenge our very core, have been part of us for a very long time and exist in the realm of feelings not words. Those can be elusive for a man. Feelings are illogical and outside of our control...they just come, they control us and most men have disdain for things like that. You are challenging him to FEEL something he would rather ignore or deny, and he won't do that until his back is against the wall.


Not enough likes for this one. My husband is in therapy now because he's willing to FEEL things he'd rather ignore or deny. He admits it but not until he realized he was on the edge of losing me and everything he holds dear like this image of the happy family.


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

A few charming words, redirection, deflection, out of sight out of mind. You can get through life this way thinking all the brush fires you put out pose no risk. Maybe, maybe not. When the wild fire is raging he can always say he's more surprised than anyone...and she's a walkaway wife.

To an outsider's point of view, this is how he pins the substance of your problems on you walkingwounded. If he owned any of it that would be cause for introspection...which he fears.

And Mavash, my view here is born of experience similar to yours. My wife wondered for years why I had no answers to her questions, nothing to offer, had never considered some very important emotional connections and she could barely goad enough passion out of me to fight. My mid life epiphany helped me decide for myself I wanted to wake up and FEEL.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

I have seriously thought about leaving. Practically just upping and leaving is a nightmare logistically. On paper I do not have enough income to take over the house and he would not be able to help because he would have to have the money to get a place for himself. I would need to get a job but that would take time.

Emotionally however I do not have any roadblocks just because I figure what would I really be missing? Yeah he does a lot practically, but nothing I couldn't do if needed to. At this moment in time I would not be missing out on emotional support, or companionship. I wouldn't have to dread the evenings or mind my physical and emotional distance in case I was too close.

I figure we will go away for this weekend and it might be that he finds something within himself that can pull him out of himself. I am not counting on it but got nothing to lose now. I can see where we are once we get back.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

walking,
This.. in essence is what is "wrong" with my H. He drinks to keep it and everyone else around him at bay. But don't want to discuss that, here. Just feeling your pain, that's all. 

Enjoy your weekend. You know now, that it is not you. The truth isn't always easier, but it's something. Take care of you.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

C, again very insightfull. I sense a lot of what you say in H. Gives me understanding.

deejov, sorry to hear your pain. Your words mean a lot, your sharing is valuable.

Mavash, allways look forward to your thoughts. A lot of support. Like an invisible pillar of strength.

He is home and super nice. I will enjoy it while it lasts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

This is no cakewalk as my husband continues to want to pull away. I then have to find my center and reel him back in again. It's exhausting at times but at least he's listening. We've done little more than talk the past few days because he's slipped again.

The key was that wake up call. I had to get his attention otherwise the status quo would have continued. And his wake up call wasn't when I threatened to leave it was when I emotionally checked out and it coincided with that 3 month work separation. Best thing that ever happened was us being separated.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

I do wonder if a separation would give H time to reflect. When he does talk, he has a degree of introspection. He kinda teeters on a brink of being able to acknowledge some behaviors and why he does them, and actually making his own choice to alter such behaviors. In some ways it is weird because he can be excellent at reading people and their motivations and peeling back the layers. But is hesitant to do this with himself any further.

Not going to be hasty. Going to reflect after the weekend and see how the land lies then.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

If it's any indication of what people are capable of...
My H tells me today he is listening to videos all about Buddhism and finding himself. I had to hide my smile. I'm happy for him, I truly am.

And it just reinforced something I recently came to believe. I really don't "know" anyone, really. And they don't know me. I just know what they show me. 

So yeah, I think anything is possible. Given the right motivation.
Even when it's not me. I'm just happy to see someone show an inkling. At least they are alive.

You, are doing amazing!!!


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

There is little risk in peeling back someone else's layers. That's why chicken shet Cre8ify is carving your husband up when I really have my own work to do.

Your attitude is great WW, have a good time.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

Walkingwounded,Mavash,Toffer and the rest. Please don't think I am making light of your problems, and don't think I am trying to insult you by offering a QUICK FIX....I am absolutely sincere..

I have read this entire thread, and i am really touched by the pain all of you are going through. My wife and I have been married 47 years, and until recently had most of the same problems all of you do.....

We both started out HD, so early on sex wasn't an issue, but we had kids early, money problems, and we wound up putting her little brother through highschool, and keeping her younger sister for several years. Just lots of daily pressure, really typical. 
I retired almost 2 years ago, and she has been through a lot with illness and the passing of 2 sisters, It got to the point that we just did not connect. We had almost zero communication, lots of resentment, the whole 9 yards. 
To compare that to now is almost impossible. We refuse to fight, and are physically closer than we have been in years...

This morning I was distracted by my computer, and she came in and said she couldn't find my wallet. She had hung up my pants and it wasn't in them....I kind of blew her off, told her It was in there somewhere, and was a little gruff when she came back in and said I must have left it in the car....I hurt her feelings and she snapped back and yada yada yada...

*Does this sound familiar? Fighting about absolutely nothing....*

But not now. Long story short...We got into our "don't want'a fight" mode. I apologized for being such a crab, she said she didn't mean anything by what she said, and we hugged and everything was GOOD.....

The one down side is I litter up the kitchen with flowers, get her stupid cards just to say "Thank you for loving me"...And get a lot more "EMOTIONAL" than I used to.....

Here is a post I left for someone else, but it applies to all of you too. If it helps you one tenth as much as it helped me there will someday be a bunch of kids with the middle name "woodchuck.

I was in the same boat as you. The marriage was sexless, fights, disrespect, F-bombs thrown in my face almost daily, negative attitude, just a total marital hell.....I typed up our states divorce laws, left them on her placemat, and walked....I came back in a few hours, BIG FIGHT....We decided we had too much invested in our marriage to divorce, we needed help....
Someone suggested the book "The 5 Love Languages"...I bought it that day. I had NO hope the book would help...I planned to scan thru fast and $hit can it. 
When we got it, she started reading it, but after a couple of chapters had to do chores, so I picked it up and started reading...The premise is simple, The wording isn't psycological crap, and it made sense....I don't think I put the book down till I finished it......Then the wife picked it up, and finished reading it....Here it is in a nutshell.....

A person feels good about the person who fulfills them emotionally...It makes that person EASY TO LOVE...

The whole point of the book is that different people need different things to feel emotionally fulfilled...You speak the language you understand to your mate, and they reply in the language they understand.....If both don't speak the same languages they do not give their mate the emotional support they they crave...They become emotionally bankrupt....

There are 5 languages:
1 Acts of service
2 physical touch
3 Words of affirmation
4 Quality time
5 gifts


If you need "Physical touch" And your mate speaks gifts...
You are craving a hug, and sex, and she buys you a ROLEX......
You become emotionally bankrupt.....

Your wife craves "words of affirmation", and you tile the bathroom....She is going to be pissed....

You are both saying I love and support you, and both of you hear 
nothing but gibberish....

*If two people decide they want to love one another, and want their partner to be emotionally fulfilled, The book will show both of them how...*
People who learn how to communicate have less conflict...It's as simple as that...

Saturday my wife was in a bad mood...We are doing some work on the kitchen, and she felt she had wasted the morning because she couldn't find a light fixture....She came home and began acting out in a negative manner.....In the past I would have picked up on it, fed off of it, and a blowout would have ensued...DEAD CERTAIN.....

Instead I tried to tease and reason her out of her mood...Everything stayed light, and no fighting...

Sunday I lay down after breakfast to watch TV. The wife joined me and said she had been silly for being in such a bad mood the day before, and was very affectionate....

We had HONEYMOON SEX for 3 hours.....It was absolutely one of those lovemaking sessions that you always remember.....

It was not the first time we have done that since reading the book........

How much would a day like that mean to you.....

If you look up my threads last Oct.-Dec. You will see the absolute hell my life was then....If someone had told me they could make this big a change in my marriage, for $5,000 cash....I would have paid GLADLY.....Not bad for $10 on ebay....

My advise is get the book, do the program with your mate. Practice it for a couple of months, and see if your marriage and feelings about each other aren't improved ....All you have to loose is 10 bucks....

Please feel free to PM me...:smthumbup:

good luck
the woodchuck


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

I see a lot of elements of my husband in yours, WW and Mavash. Not to the extremes of rejection of affection, but in some of the avoidance of emotional discussion, inability to admit vulnerability and passive aggression.

We recently had some pretty big discussions about his lifelong habit of signalling very clearly that he is pissed off with me but refusing to admit it, absolutely refusing. It is infuriating and ends up with me doubting my own senses. The problem is, him acting like he is angry with me is indistinguishable from him acting tired, or sick or having a migraine. So I feel like I'm in a constant state of "are you okay? Are you annoyed with me?" and analysing his behaviour minutely. It is diminishing and humiliating. 

I made it clear that I would not live like that for the next 40 years. He had to promise to tell me when he was annoyed, even if he couldn't talk about it yet. 

We'll see.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Woodchuck

Thanks for your post. I know your story and have read the post you quoted before. 

I was really pleased for you when I read how things had turned around. I love to read when things change for the better and stay like that.

Funnily enough I was thinking about the 5LLs yesterday. I actually bought the book a couple of years ago. Saw it recommended on here a lot so got it along with HNHN.

I was super enthusiastic about the book and read it then spoke to my H about it. He read a small bit of it and said he got the idea. We worked out what were our primary languages ( they have changed slightly since then) and I sorta attacked stuff from there. It felt great to have a gameplan, if you like. Something concrete to be doing.

H however was not the same. He continued to give in *his* language. So his language is acts of service, and he gives to me in acts of service. But my LL then was quality time. Which he actively resisted and still does to a degree now.

I give to him in acts of service. Or I *did* do. I had to cut down majorly as I was giving *way* more than him.

Over time my LL has changed to words of affirmation with quality time very close behind. This is a big part of what I write about in this thread, albeit not directly referenced as that. He cannot for whatever reason bring himself to find that verbal affirmation that I need. I have suggested stuff, phrases, even tailored it to what I think might be easy for him to say based on the stuff he *does* say. 

Yet he continues to just, well, NOT do it. I would go as far as to say he actively resists it at times, thus wondering if he is being PA.

There is also an element of I wonder if he does not comprehend just how important this is to me. He is listening but has filtered it out may be.

Or may be he does not find it easy. He has said not with some things. The sad thing is I have come to the realization that his refusal to look inside and work out *why* he cannot give this to me is contributing in part to the demise of our relationship. It is starting to look like he would rather bury his head in the sand than face up to the issues at hand. I cannot understand that, but I am not him *shrugs* I can only go on what he has said and how he acts, without any real genuine insight from him. And right now that just isn't enough.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

walkingwounded said:


> Woodchuck
> 
> Thanks for your post. I know your story and have read the post you quoted before.
> 
> ...


Don't give up. try getting a sitter and set up a mini marriage retreat at some motei for a week end. I want to do something like that, sort of as a refresher...Your husband may be a resistant case, but now has been vaccinated, and a booster shot may "take". Don't look for big changes at first, some of this stuff is hard for a guy to get theough his thick hed. As soon as I saw some positive signs, I doubled down with my efforts......Like training a puppy, lots of praise for little deads at first...

You know it's not really the book that causes the changes, it's the effort and intentions of 2 people working together... 

Just about any book out there posesses enough good intentions to pull a couple together if they want to be....It takes the committment of 2 people...

good luck
the woodchuck


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

I think WW needs to make life a lot more uncomfortable for her husband before he'll even begin to look at changing. Why would he bother now?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I laugh at how people think knowing the love languages is some magic cure all. 

It's not.

I read his needs her needs, love language, submissive wife crap and wanna know what it got me? 

Nothing. Why? Because this wasn't the problem. Not even close.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Me too. I think of those books as solutions for very basic problems. 

We go advanced in my house. No point d*cking around with externals.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Woodchuck said:


> Don't give up. try getting a sitter and set up a mini marriage retreat at some motei for a week end. I want to do something like that, sort of as a refresher...Your husband may be a resistant case, but now has been vaccinated, and a booster shot may "take". Don't look for big changes at first, some of this stuff is hard for a guy to get theough his thick hed. As soon as I saw some positive signs, I doubled down with my efforts......Like training a puppy, lots of praise for little deads at first...
> 
> You know it's not really the book that causes the changes, it's the effort and intentions of 2 people working together...
> 
> ...


Thanks woodchuck. We are actually going away for a couple of days later on today. I have decided to see where we are when we get back and take things from there.

I know what you are saying about giving out positive signs. I do not want to look like I am being overly negative (!) but I have been through this cycle. IME the "nicer" I am coming across when he makes an effort, it appears he thinks "right, that's enough to appease her for a while, can sit back now." Without fail. I don't of course demean his efforts or anything like that but IMO what I am asking for isn't "special", it is what he SHOULD be doing. I feel bitter right now at the thought of even having to praise him or show gratitude that he has offered to sit NEXT to me on the sofa, KWIM? Like a puppy dog being thrown scraps.



Lyris said:


> I think WW needs to make life a lot more uncomfortable for her husband before he'll even begin to look at changing. Why would he bother now?


True. I suspect the truth is that this he is selfish. And I do not mean this in a derogatory way, if this makes sense, I just think he is comfortable being how he is, and he does not (yet?) possess the insight to look inside himself. And of course I have enabled him by not enforcing boundaries and so I think to a degree he does not take me seriously as well.



Mavash. said:


> I laugh at how people think knowing the love languages is some magic cure all.
> 
> It's not.
> 
> ...


I wish it was a cure all and I had a willing H. Problem solved Unfortunately not the case. I still cannot help feeling on some level that he does not find me attractive, like he protests TOO much if you get that? Or may be *I* believe it so much that I won't stop untill he admits it? That is on me.



Lyris said:


> Me too. I think of those books as solutions for very basic problems.
> 
> We go advanced in my house. No point d*cking around with externals.


That last sentence is a gem


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Well we are back from our weekend away...

It was awesome. Really good. He said the same. Kept saying he was so glad we went, we had a really good time.

How was he? 

He was like a different person. The person I remember him being a while ago. Attentive. Caring. Affectionate. We were walking earlier this morning and I looked down and saw he had taken my hand and was holding it. I couldn't believe it. From when we went to when we got back, it was a joy to be around him, it really was.

I remember saying at one point "I wish you were like this at home." He replied "I can't be." It was one of those "is it serious or not?" moments. He then said he'd try. I replied, don't "try". Just do it. Do or do not, there is no try 

Once we got back, it was like the weight of the world had descended on to his shoulders. His demeanor changed. The usual "him" was back.

He has been quite mild though. It does highlight the difference between us both... Every day life IS hard work at times. I look to work around the problems and still enjoy our family and our relationship. He seems to be stuck in wallowing in some kind of self imposed "woe is me" misery and concentrating on why things are bad. He said he knows he closes himself off.

I am holding off still on doing anything and seeing where he is.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Glad to hear you had a great time.!!!!

Make sure he shows his vacay side more often,
Book another weekend retreat :smthumbup:


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Been looking at another weekend away yesterday allready

He went to pick up some stuff earlier and let me know he had picked up some baby oil. We had meant to bring some when we went away but forgot. One of the things he does now and again which I love is a back massage, and on one of the days we were away I had a sore lower back from doing a lot of walking. He rubbed it a little but without any oil it was not doing much.

I couldn't believe it. He was talking about giving me a massage later.

This is good... TOO good. This will never last will it?


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Sure it will! I have faith. The momentum carries on.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

deejov said:


> Sure it will! I have faith. The momentum carries on.


Yeah it does! I am kinda trying to live just in this moment and appreciate what he is doing. 

There was a potential "moment" earlier where I went to give him a hug around his waist. He flinched and asked what I was doing. I took my arms away and said I was going to hug him but not going to bother now and spun around to walk away.

He grabbed my arms and put them BACK around his waist explaining he thought I was going to tickle him ( he hates having his sides tickled.) Told me to carry on hugging him.

Good rescue I thought. He is trying. I felt some kind of urgency from him that I not misunderstand.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

OMG! That's awesome!

Next time he flinches, swat him and tell him stand STILL for his lovin.
Then tickle him instead.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

WW, this is going to sound strange, but was your H ever sexually abused?

Flinching like that when you go to touch him, needing to be in control all the time...

Probably way off base, but wanted to throw it out there.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Lyris said:


> WW, this is going to sound strange, but was your H ever sexually abused?
> 
> Flinching like that when you go to touch him, needing to be in control all the time...
> 
> Probably way off base, but wanted to throw it out there.


Not that I know of. He has allways been really sensitive around his waist, he cannot stand to be touched there. He has never indicated anything like that.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Lyris has a good point. I'm jumpy and once hated to be touched. I wasn't sexually abused but I was neglected and emotionally abused as a child. I have PTSD from this.

What was his childhood like?


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

OK. His dad was fairly absent, his mom is quite an alpha personality, very forthright and efficient, gets stuff done. I gather H spent a lot of time with her but not "with" her as in one to one attention as a child as she had to pick up the slack financially and practically where his dad was not pitching in.

I have wondered if his childhood has played a part in how he is. I could theorize a lot, but fact is for a few years since we have been together, and in to marriage, our relationship was fine. So I am more inclined to think it is something to do with more recently than his childhood. But I am open to ideas. I just do not know.


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## DaddyLongShanks (Nov 6, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> He means don't bother him AT ALL.
> 
> Nice guy.
> 
> Most men would KILL for a woman who wants to give their man a massage or affection. But yours? Nope and that's not normal for a man I don't care what anyone says.


The avoidance of this could be a "power play", it's ingrained into some people and sometimes it's so ingrained that they are fighting against stuff that will benefit them.


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

walkingwounded said:


> He has been quite mild though. It does highlight the difference between us both... *Every day life IS hard work at times. I look to work around the problems and still enjoy our family and our relationship. He seems to be stuck in wallowing in some kind of self imposed "woe is me" misery and concentrating on why things are bad. *He said he knows he closes himself off.


Oh my god. You are me, and your husband is my wife. Same crap. 

I want to just enjoy her and our family at home and relax. Her? Same as your H apparently. Fixated on any little "bad" thing. Be it not feeling *100%* healthy, and a cold isnt 100% you know, to any sort of money, family, scheduling issue, whatever.

From reading your earlier posts in this thread, I feel for you. Toffer as well. So much fun to have to feel bad for wanting to have sex on a regular basis with your spouse huh?


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## DaddyLongShanks (Nov 6, 2012)

Middle of Everything said:


> Oh my god. You are me, and your husband is my wife. Same crap.
> 
> I want to just enjoy her and our family at home and relax. Her? Same as your H apparently. Fixated on any little "bad" thing. Be it not feeling *100%* healthy, and a cold isnt 100% you know, to any sort of money, family, scheduling issue, whatever.
> 
> From reading your earlier posts in this thread, I feel for you. Toffer as well. So much fun to have to feel bad for wanting to have sex on a regular basis with your spouse huh?


It's just plain WRONG , you should be OK without it, the spouse doesn't see it as a problem at all.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

DaddyLongShanks said:


> The avoidance of this could be a "power play", it's ingrained into some people and sometimes it's so ingrained that they are fighting against stuff that will benefit them.


I have wondered this. I do not think this is the case *now* but I do wonder if back when he was rejecting me, this is what he was doing. Why, I do not know. If only I did know.



Middle of Everything said:


> Oh my god. You are me, and your husband is my wife. Same crap.
> 
> I want to just enjoy her and our family at home and relax. Her? Same as your H apparently. Fixated on any little "bad" thing. Be it not feeling *100%* healthy, and a cold isnt 100% you know, to any sort of money, family, scheduling issue, whatever.
> 
> From reading your earlier posts in this thread, I feel for you. Toffer as well. So much fun to have to feel bad for wanting to have sex on a regular basis with your spouse huh?


Yeah. Having said that, frequency now is OK. Things have changed slightly. It is weird how things evolve. The issue NOW is that allthough as I said the frequency is OK, and he appears to be trying with low level gestures, which admittedly are things I think he should be doing any way, he still has not dealt with the rejection, why, and what it did to me. I do not really talk about it any more because it is futile. Whatever it is that is stopping him, is something *he* needs to deal with and no amount of talking from me is going to spark that fire within him. It needs to come from him.

I have been working on me, and I continue to work on me. That is the most I can do. Apart from that I am just watching and taking things in. There are no guarantees as to whether he will *ever* take accountability and show any empathy whatsoever. Certainly his most recent reactions to it have been that I need to move on, forget about it, it is in the past. There does need to come a point where *I* have to decide whether I can live with him knowing he just does not care about hurting me.


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

> He seems to be stuck in wallowing in some kind of self imposed "woe is me" misery and concentrating on why things are bad. He said he knows he closes himself off.


IMO there is immense power in labeling yourself a victim...the power to excuse, under perform and not reach our potential. The opposite of this would be faith in the future, limitless potential, being the best versions of ourselves...and not worrying about what is FAIR. Whatever is holding back your husband from being the kind of husband he could be is likely also keeping him from being the kind of man he can be. 



> I have been working on me, and I continue to work on me. That is the most I can do.


Now there is power being used for good. What if he could have the same desire to throw off shackles and remake himself too self sufficient to ever be a victim again?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

My husband still wants to play the victim card from time to time. I no longer react to it. It's his life and I have full faith that he will figure it out without my help.

I stick to my boundaries and let him deal with his life. 

I'm happy with or without him.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Yes, I have felt he uses the victim label to "excuse" his behavior. Many times he has told me I deserve better, that he has thought I would be better off with someone else better for me.

It sounds like he has set the bar low when he talks like that. Things would be so different if like Cre8ify said, he was striving for better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Oh the funny stories I could tell you about how I called my husband on his B.S. excuses. I bought them for so long that I think I became immune to them then one day I realized he's full of crap. Lol. This isn't the victim card but it is its close cousin.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

WW,
It is BS excuses. I've been known to flat out say "No, you don't get to decide whether or not you are good enough for me, that's MY decision". 

Lately, though, when I hear this I just say "I'm quite willing and able to make my own decision on that, and I will ".


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

See I'm snarky I'd probably agree with him. You're right dude I deserve better than you. 

Yes I have said this when my husband pulled out his tiny violin to accompany his woe as me, I'm so stupid, you deserve better than me speech.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

LOL Mavash ! I"ve done that too. I do agree with him.... I'm just lying and trying to make him feel better HA


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

He hasn't said it for a while. It gets me angry. It is like he is excusing himself for *any* accountability of his behavior... Like, he is saying he just sucks, he can't help it!

Anyway. Last night we were sitting together and he offered me a back rub. Completely unsolicited. Had to shake my head and wonder if I was in some kind of parallel universe?

Then earlier he ( yes that is right, *he*) was shimmying up to me. WTF??? I am clearly emanating "leave me alone" vibes so he feels safe approaching me because he thinks I won't reciprocate.

This is pretty confusing.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

walkingwounded said:


> He hasn't said it for a while. It gets me angry. It is like he is excusing himself for *any* accountability of his behavior... Like, he is saying he just sucks, he can't help it!
> 
> Anyway. Last night we were sitting together and he offered me a back rub. Completely unsolicited. Had to shake my head and wonder if I was in some kind of parallel universe?
> 
> ...



I wont' compare this... but my H would only initiate sex on the 25th of the month, and act all surprised that was TOM like he had NO idea. Whew. Good for him. He's off the hook.

PA BS. So it will be YOUR fault if you don't have sex now. You know what it is. 

So surprise him and get yerself in the mood. Seriously.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

deejov said:


> I wont' compare this... but my H would only initiate sex on the 25th of the month, and act all surprised that was TOM like he had NO idea. Whew. Good for him. He's off the hook.
> 
> PA BS. So it will be YOUR fault if you don't have sex now. You know what it is.
> 
> So surprise him and get yerself in the mood. Seriously.


QFT


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

I am going to say this, I may be wrong... But despite my cynicism, I think he is being genuine.

He has been pretty nice all week. It is freaking me out. It feels different. It feels like it is authentic.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

What part feels authentic?
That he mis -read your mood and is shimmying up to you?
Could be just that. Maybe wants to put a smile on your face.
Maybe your old habit of reading into his moves is affecting your ability to just see a good gesture for what it is.

But if you are sure he knows you are not in the mood, it's all up to you to make that a final decision or not. Is he testing you? Only you can decide that. 

How did things turn out, btw?


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

Walking W I have not read through your entire thread so bear with me if I have repeated someone else. I am in the northeast. Women up here are pretty freaking nice.
But down south the culture is a bit different. Women down there older, younger, teenager’s .little one’s seem to never leave home without that southern girl look.Always just right.
I think it gets passed down from Mother to daughter. Have that southern girl confidence and grace.
Can I get an amen from the southern boys


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

deejov said:


> What part feels authentic?
> That he mis -read your mood and is shimmying up to you?
> Could be just that. Maybe wants to put a smile on your face.
> Maybe your old habit of reading into his moves is affecting your ability to just see a good gesture for what it is.
> ...


I do not think he could read my mood. If being honest I was being a little bitter because I felt he *was* being genuine, and if it was that easy, why is he so selective about when he does it?

He went out last night but when he got back and came and sat with me, he asked if it was OK if he lay in in the morning. Wow. He was being considerate and respectfull ( long ongoing issue with him sleeping in.) The fact he checked was quite significant and I was OK with it.

Pity he spoiled it today by laying in till lunch. He suggested 11am as our getting up time and he ALLWAYS breaks his promise.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Consequences. Not getting even, but if he always breaks his promise, then don't allow him to make them, don't make it easy for him to break them, dont' change your plans around his plans, act as if it's 11 am and he should be up. I'm sure you can think of something. 

Or just don't agree to it.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Your choices are acceptance or consequences.

I went the consequence route with mine. I left the house before he got up and didn't tell him where I was going. He hated that and he started getting up when he promised he would.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

I have tried a number of ways of dealing with this. Yesterday it was nice so I took the kids to the park in the morning hoping he would appreciate the quiet and be up when we got back.

He was not. It was nearly 12.30 when he got up and that was only because I had to get some clothes out of our room for the littlest who needed changing.

I was annoyed. He was full of his usual excuses... He just hadn't woken up. He was so tired. He did not know what time it was. He didn't mean to. Anything that excuses him from holding himself accountable for keeping a promise HE made! 

Yes he is tired from work, I get that. But going to bed at 3am after beers is not helping, like he is hitting a 2am bedtime now on weekdays. He literally gets up 5 minutes before he has to leave in the morning. Then complains every weekend how he does not see the kids much because he works! He threw a tantrum last week when he couldn't find a sweater for work. Stomped about upstairs banging doors and broke the dresser going through it in anger looking for his sweater.

The final conclusion I have come to after trying everything is to simply take the kids and go out. Disregard him or waiting for him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DaddyLongShanks (Nov 6, 2012)

walkingwounded said:


> I have tried a number of ways of dealing with this. Yesterday it was nice so I took the kids to the park in the morning hoping he would appreciate the quiet and be up when we got back.
> 
> He was not. It was nearly 12.30 when he got up and that was only because I had to get some clothes out of our room for the littlest who needed changing.
> 
> ...


He needs to see the light on his own and discover he will be helping himself out to correct this.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

What is he doing up so late?


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> What is he doing up so late?


OK. Out of respect for H, I know he will not want me to go in to detail on here. What I will say is that he has some health issues which mean he cannot go to bed untill he feels comfortable. This routinely means he will stay up untill *at least* 12.30am. Since I have known him, his bedtime has gone from just before midnight, to most recently when he is regularly staying up till 1.30am-2am because of his condition.

Let me say I sympathize with him because it is very clear that it causes him pain and discomfort. What frustrates me though is that having had this for years now, he has NEVER been to see a doctor about it. Instead he has self diagnosed and pretty much decided he has to live with how this condition controls his life. He seems oblivious to the thought that a doctor may be able to diagnose properly, suggest lifestyle changes, provide medication or even some kind of surgery that could alleviate or even cure what he has.

Add to this there is also an element of him wanting his downtime. Yeah he works hard. But IMO he kicks back with way too many beers, does not eat properly and as mentioned above, does not get enough sleep. He does not help himself. But what I say makes no difference. Short of physically dragging him to the doctor, I cannot *do* anything. He is happy to live like that and it is dragging me down. Plus the worry of him feeling ill and the possibility that it may get worse if he does not do anything about it.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I have ZERO sympathy for people with health problems when they refuse to do anything about it.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Why aren't you sending the kids in to wake him up at 11? Why are you letting him sleep so long?

Your husband is getting away with a lot of really childish behaviour. Not going to the doctor, being tired all the time and not doing anything about it, storming around when he can't find stuff, breaking promises with total impunity...

He's getting away with it and you're not doing anything about it. If my husband routinely slept until after noon on the weekend and if he made a committment to get up at 11 I would be walking into the room at 11, opening the curtains, letting the kids bounce all over him and not putting up with 'I'm tired' bullsh*t. 

I'd also be giving zero sympathy and consideration for any health condition he was refusing to get proper care for. Every time he complained, my response would be "then go to the doctor". 

I'm sorry, WW, but the more you type...you are really enabling this crap.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Ah but there is something you can do if he won't help himself.

You do not need to sacrifice your happiness, peace in the household, or let someone else's problem become your problem.

Especially when kids are involved.
Some assertiveness might be helpful.

To quote Conrad,
"I'm not okay with you slamming dressers around and being grumpy"
"I'm not okay with your sleep schedule when it affects the entire household"

He hasn't done anything about it, because you make it too easy for him not to.

Never, in my life, have I been "allowed" to use my medical condition as an excuse to make other people miserable. I got enough reasons to play the victim card as it is.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Lyris, I *totally* get how it looks like that.

Believe me I have tried everything. Walking in at 11am announcing he had to get up. Opening the curtains. I used to make him a drink and bring it in at 11am or 15 minutes before. Come in half an hour before telling him he should be up in a half hour. Go in the bedroom to get anything I could think of and make lots of noise. Send the kids in to wake him. Hover around upstairs doing chores. Put the vacuum cleaner on.

Leave the house with the kids. Leave the house without the kids. Leave him for a bit to give him peace. Remind him to set an alarm. Go to bed when he gets up.

I got to the point where I was expending an incredible amount of energy being annoyed and bitter and ruining the weekend. I still do feel like that to a degree. So I adopted the approach of not acting like his mom. I do not want to be his mom. If he wants to sleep in and break his promise, that is on him. I am not going to act like I am OK with it, but I cannot let it ruin my day. Because it will if I let it.

Doing this actually freed me a lot. I now actually enjoy the Saturday mornings rather than spending them waiting for him.

This Saturday I took the kids to the park. The younger one wanted daddy to come and said it just as we were about to leave. We went up and asked him ( it was around 10.30am.) He said no, he would take them out later.

Twice H has said how guilty he feels about that now.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Wow. You really have tried a lot. So you would go out, leave him with your kids and he would just stay in bed? 

You are married to a really selfish man. I hope you can detach from him.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

It was a few weeks ago now. I cannot remember exactly what happened but I just flipped out one Saturday morning and announced around 9.30am that I was going out and he had to get up to look after the kids. And I just left. *Really* unlike me but I had had enough.

He did get up. I returned around 5.30pm. He was pretty quiet. Did not make much difference though in the long run.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

So it did work then. You should do that regularly, at least taking it in turns. Because as it stands, he really doesn't get any consequences from breaking his promises and staying in bed far longer than is reasonable for anyone who has young children.

Maybe it will spur him to get some proper medical advice, lay off the alcohol and start going to bed earlier.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

I think you should have a new hobby or class you need to attend at 10 am every saturday. I'm sorry if he doesnt get enough sleep, but he will find a way to get the sleep he needs, just not at the expense of the kids. He will find a way to work it out.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

A while back I used to have a sports practice every Sunday morning, around 10am to 12/12.30pm.

We had arranged that he have a Saturday lay in and I have Sunday. In all honesty I am not much of one for sleeping in as usually when I am awake, I am awake. I like to get up.

He used to justify his sleeping in late by saying I went out every Sunday and he had to look after the kids, so it was OK if he slept in untill the same time on Saturdays. What he completely failed to see was that for the years before I started this sport, I never had a sports practice on a Sunday AND HE STILL LAY IN UNTILL THE SAME TIME. He also said if I ever stopped practice then he would get up at a normal time.

Well guess what? I ended up stopping practice ( not because of him)... and did he start getting up earlier? No. He talks BS.

Consequences? Well we have gotten to the point where he making the kids feel bad because he will not get up a half hour earlier to go to the park with them. I sincerely do not know what else I can do.

And also on Sunday evening when I got to bed, I ( foolishly probably, but I am not perfect) texted him whilst he was downstairs watching TV, saying "One day, I hope you'll get what has happened in the past. I hope you will find empathy and you will "get it." " I was tired and sad. Did not really care if he answered. I just wanted to get it out of my head so he knew. 

Of course he did not respond in any way and has not brought it up since. I am not surprised. I am on a downwards wave right now. Kinda silently reflecting in a pretty detached way, how strange it is that this can bother me so much, he can know it does, yet he is not going all out to mend it. I feel a bit more detached than I have before. It is easier to step back and look inside and see what is happening.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

This is a tough post, walking 
My heart goes out to you, I was always thinking of the kids.
All kids know is weekends are play time, and spend time with family. 

PA is crap. I'd be outta the house every Saturday with the kids and gone all day. Leave a note. Let him miss out. 
Every Saturday. 
Wouldn't even mention it. If the kids ask, no lies. Daddy is sleeping because he stays up too late all week. LIfe goes on. Without him. 
Book a family weekend without him. Go to a hotel with a waterslide. Lots of stuff to do.

After all you have done, I wouldn't let it bother you. Go have some fun. 

When you go away on vacation... how late does he sleep?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

The more you detach the more the solution will appear to you. At the moment you're still trying to get him to change which never works.

I'm referring to the text and getting upset when he sleeps in.

The only person you can change is you.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

I do still get upset. Difference is recently that I organize the morning/day around me and the kids and do not wait around for him. This feels better than before. It is a step in detaching.

On vacation btw, H is the same. Sleeps in. A lot. And naps. A lot.

In other areas H is continuing his efforts. I call them "low level gestures" as in a low level of effort rather than something that requires challenging himself. This does feel like something but I do not want to fuss over him like it is amazing and him think that is all it takes. Yet I also do not want to discount it. So I have gone with a short but clear and genuine "thanks."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I believe now that sleeping a lot with men is a form of checking out. I know because my husband did it too. 

He was avoiding ME.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

I don't know. It is a possibility I have considered before.

I started to withdraw more this week. I keep thinking worse case scenario with regard to our marriage and how I would need to be prepared for that eventuality. I realized that I have hoped that H will get it at some point but obviously there is the possibility that he will not. It is heart wrenching to think each day, does he still want me? Has he settled? Would he lose the marriage over refusing to work on it? Would he really be that stubborn?

I can see small changes in him and I know I have changed a lot even now. 

The other thing that strikes me to do with this is just how much I used to do to be the good wife that I do not do any more. Oddly I cannot work out if any of it is missed by him. Except the initiating... Yeah he covered that one. He does not even think about it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

I have just realized... I don't know who the **** I am.

I thought I was going OK with this one. Something H said a couple of times recently bothered me. Why don't I go out to gigs any more? Why do I listen to the chart stuff instead of the alternative stuff I used to like?

I do still listen to "that alternative stuff." He just sees me singing along to the catchy stuff me and the kids hear when we go roller skating, or that we listen to in the car.

I did stop going to gigs. I was so tired in the evenings. Still am a lot of the time.

Clearly he is telling me something. What I want to do is run off and not have to see him again. This is a bad week for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Sounds like projection again. He misses the old days and doesn't know who he is but instead of owning that he puts it on you.

Sorry not buying it.

There are lots of things I used to do that I don't now. Hello I've got 3 kids, a big ass house to clean and I'm tired. Lol

I am HAPPY. I don't want to go back nor do I miss who I once was. Was up all night with a sick tween. He says to me "thanks for keeping me company". Being with him is better than any "gig". And maybe I'm off base. I enjoyed my childless days and am now content to be mom. Thankfully my husband is a family man too. He took today off to help me even though I said I've got this.

WW this is what I want for you. You deserve it. Not some guy who sleeps all day and constantly digs at your self esteem. It's just not right.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Well this is the thing M. When we met, I was not by any stretch the coolest girl on the block. For the most part I had been there done that. Yeah I liked going to gigs in my younger days, I did a LOT. But when I met him that had waned. I know he liked that I was that kind of alternative type, from how I thought, to how I dressed, to what music I liked, and so on.

A lot of that has been watered down with getting married and having a family. I have different priorities now. It is not that I do not *think* about that stuff, but more that there is more important stuff that comes first. It is still in there somewhere. But the other thing is I cannot carry off how I used to dress lol. I just think for that it was OK, great actually when I was 18 but now a thirtysomething trying to dress like a teenager to me is just embarrassing!

I know he loves the kids. I cannot question that he is happy to have his family. I can see it. I had not thought that he may be projecting. I could potentially accept he thinks I have changed if I felt secure in his feelings for me. But right now it is like a kick in the teeth. I don't think what I want exists in his world any more. Why is it so easy for him to say stuff like that then leave a huge gap where the good stuff goes?

What I wouldn't give for him to be on here and write his side of the story. It sure would make for some insightfull reading.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Growing involves evolving however I'm back to the girl my husband married 21 years ago. For a while yes I drifted. I went from a sweet, southern gal to ball busting executive to frumpy housewife. I gained weight, cut all my hair off and lost a sense of priority.

I then got a clue. Started working out, lost weight, grew my hair out and got back in touch with the woman my husband married. At 46 I can wear hot clothes if I want to. I've earned it but I wasn't able to do this until my kids were a bit older and more self sufficient. I also don't work outside the home so I have more time. This wasn't a cure all it was just one of many things I did to save my marriage.


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

> Growing involves evolving


This means two people moving in a direction...hopefully the SAME one. He shows indications of looking back...indications are you are looking forward. 

I keep a Zen Proverb: "Open your mind, the beginner sees many possibilities, the expert few. Start every day a beginner."

This is my way of making sure I don't stop growing. That's easy for my work life but harder in marriage as it takes two. My evolution does have an effect on my wife even if she is absolutely satisfied with herself. My new perspective becomes OUR new reality whether she asked for it or not...so I better be committed to bringing her along. Enter the importance of shared values and common interest.



> I have just realized... I don't know who the **** I am


What an enormous realization and a great place to start...especially for a mom who has probably always put raising kids first.



> What I wouldn't give for him to be on here and write his side of the story.


IMO he would need some help getting that out. The impetus is yours WW, he can live with the status quo.



> sweet, southern gal to ball busting executive to frumpy housewife.


The first two sound killer M!


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Thing is I swing from being really contented with how I am progressing with regard to who I am, to feeling like I have hardly done anything and I do not know who I am.

I mean, I feel I *have* progressed. Quite a bit. Nowhere near to where I want to be but further on than I was. Definitely. To be more clear, there has been a lot of work on my thinking, I guess. My perspective and how I handle things. It is more the things that shape me that I haven't got so far with yet. I have become so immersed with family that most things went by the wayside. I did take up my lovely hobby, which I had to put on hold for a while and have not had chance to go back. I have been reading more, and I have an idea for a hobby that I want to take up but not sure where to start with it. That is to do with confidence... Something that would be incredibly usefull but I think deep down I keep putting it off because I do not want to get in to it then find out I am terrible at it. 

I think it is a residual esteem thing. I realized with the hobby I used to do that I had a deep down confidence issue which was holding me back and I was not going to get any further untill I got over my mental barriers. Somewhere in the depths of my mind there is a little voice telling me that I am mediocre at best and stupid to think I am good or could be good. It is *totally* from when H had his EA thing going on. It really did a number on my confidence and shook my belief in myself. It seems to have trickled in to anything and everything. I can *see* what it is, but actually ridding myself of it is proving difficult.

I realize looking back now how much of my life I have let him rule.


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

First off, his EA had nothing to do with you and everything to do with his inability to deal courageously and forthrightly with his issue. So...put your confidence right back where it belongs...leading you places you want to go even though you don't know every step of the way.

As to the new hobby---my experience is the hardest step is always the first one. If you feel paralysis born of fear or the unknown, take that as a sure indication you need to conquer the challenge because that means there is personal growth waiting out there for you to grasp.

As to excelling at your hobby--I recommend commitment. Plenty have failed at plenty of things by sticking a toe in the water or giving it a try to "see what happens". That is a sure way to be mediocre. Commit yourself to it with the best effort you can muster. Know you will be excellent, visualize yourself being excellent and have a long enough view to allow yourself to become excellent.

Any reason to not get back to your lovely hobby...like now!


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Wanted to share I got another piece of the puzzle today. My husband got his testosterone tested. 170. Wow! This means its been low for a long time. He's 47. He's been opening up about his sexual issues which drove him to get tested. I'm happy with where we are but now he isn't,

It's funny.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

walkingwounded said:


> Thing is I swing from being really contented with how I am progressing with regard to who I am, to feeling like I have hardly done anything and I do not know who I am.
> 
> I mean, I feel I *have* progressed. Quite a bit. Nowhere near to where I want to be but further on than I was. Definitely. To be more clear, there has been a lot of work on my thinking, I guess. My perspective and how I handle things. It is more the things that shape me that I haven't got so far with yet. I have become so immersed with family that most things went by the wayside. I did take up my lovely hobby, which I had to put on hold for a while and have not had chance to go back. I have been reading more, and I have an idea for a hobby that I want to take up but not sure where to start with it. That is to do with confidence... Something that would be incredibly usefull but I think deep down I keep putting it off because I do not want to get in to it then find out I am terrible at it.
> 
> ...


The biggest biggest mistake I made was not giving myself time. 

The head noise goes away if you take time for yourself, and use it to examine the truth about how you think about yourself. Affirmations, therapy, whatever it takes. 

It takes awhile for it to stick. Make the time, you are worth it. 
It's the ONLY thing you own and control. Don't ever give that up.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

M, what is your H not happy about ( if you want to share that?) 

Time is good. I allways thought *I* was good and we were good, but reflection has made me realize some truths about me, and him, and us. 

In fact, in a perverse way, him having his EA and the subsequent issues has instigated a very important and valuable reassessment of my life and our marriage. Through the dark I know there is a better future because I will be a better person. For me? I know I will be OK. I do not yet know if I will be OK with him or without him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

walkingwounded said:


> M, what is your H not happy about ( if you want to share that?)
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm a freaky, almost anything goes HD and my husband is a doofus (said with love in my heart). He seriously had no idea what he had and now that he does he can't enjoy it as often as he'd like. He says he wants to but his body won't cooperate. We're at 3 times a week which I've grown to be okay with. He however isn't. He wants more.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> I'm a freaky, almost anything goes HD and my husband is a doofus (said with love in my heart). *He seriously had no idea what he had* and now that he does he can't enjoy it as often as he'd like. He says he wants to but his body won't cooperate. We're at 3 times a week which I've grown to be okay with. He however isn't. He wants more.


Any resentment over that or are you OK with it now?

I have been reading quite a lot this last few days. So many different approaches and ideas. 

I was reading something yesterday ( if I can find a link I will pull it up later, it was on MMSL) about how to handle husbands where wives have told their husbands they have serious issues to deal with and changes need to be made, and the husbands repeatedly do not listen. It said that when husbands *really* need to worry is when the wife just.stops.talking. It then recommended some approaches to take, all hard hitting. Nothing out there but serious stuff.

It also suggested that part of the problem is that wives can make it look like things are sorta OK. Like, they bring up an issue, get upset, husband makes the right noises, and wife carries on the same as before even though what she is asking for is not happening. Husband thinks, OK, things are fine, she wasn't *that* mad. And it carries on the same as before. Rinse and repeat. Eventually she just stops trying.

I was wondering if may be *I* am guilty of this. I can see how H would think so.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I get triggered occasionally and it's linked to resentment but I am able to communicate that to my husband without any backlash. He takes it, lets me cry, express whatever negative feeling I have and then I feel better. He owns his part and admits he wasn't a great husband. He sincerely is sorry for hurting me. I know he wishes I'd stop talking about the past but he gets that I can't just rug sweep years of hurt in a few months. He's understanding and kind so that helps.

Oh and I agree with all your insights. Keep at it and I have faith you will figure this out.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

OK, things are fine ...
relates to boundaries.
If it was serious, you would have boundaries, right?

Takes knowing yourself first. What is important to you. (me time should be ).


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

deejov said:


> OK, things are fine ...
> relates to boundaries.
> If it was serious, you would have boundaries, right?
> 
> Takes knowing yourself first. What is important to you. (me time should be ).


Things are sorta coming together in my head. Not a complete picture but the outline definitely.

FACT: H never faced up to his behavior BECAUSE he never had to. There was never any consequence to not doing so. Thus here we are, a year later, I am stuck and he is fine with the status quo.

FACT: I am awesomely terrible at making boundaries. I think this is from me being super nice and worried at the effect of enforcing boundaries. Now, I can see the obvious sense in having them and enforcing them. But what I have been oblivious TO is that I have not actually DONE it.

Being totally honest, there is an element of fear. On some deeper level I FEAR forcing the issue because of what may emerge. The fact is that painfull as the thought is that he may not feel about me as I do about him, just *thinking* it is not the same as KNOWING it. But this halfway house is no way to live. It is limbo.

There is also the FEAR that he will refuse to do anything and tell me it is MY issue. Then I will have some hard decisions to make.

Two other things...

First, I have started eating healthier. I want to shape up a little for my confidence so am working on losing a few pounds.

Second, I redid the 5 LLs quiz and found I was tied with words of affirmation and physical touch. The latter threw me. A couple of years ago I was quality time. Then words of affirmation last year. Now both WOA and physical touch. Things are changing.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

I used to think boundaries were something I had to research. Ask around on TAM. You know... 'what would you do if this happened to you?'. "dump him, you should leave him" which just made me feel like I should leave, only because of status quo. And I was afraid to be alone! How could I?

For me, I didn't understand what a boundary was. It wasn't issuing ultimatiums. It wasn't about saying "do this or I will leave". Mainly because I didn't want to leave. (fear of being alone)

What helped me understand it was... a boundary is something that I need to do to stay happy, healthy.

_ If it makes me feel uncomfortable, then it might be a boundary _
Examples:
-agreeing to do something and it makes me feel "used"
-lying, covering up for someone, concealing information
-blaming others for mistakes, not owning your own actions

What makes it a "boundary", for me, is it applies to ME and everyone else. Means I don't feel "right" doing those things to people, and I don't like being the receiver of that behavior.

When something happens, I decide if it's a boundary.
Then I think of what a consequence would be. 

Consequences. Really, it doesn't mean you are leaving. It means you are not going to accept it. 

-blaming others for mistakes, not owning your own actions
Consequence: I just SAY I am not willing to take responsibility for your actions. "I'm sorry, but you choose to go drinking. I refuse to take the blame for your choice to go get drunk because you were upset".

-agreeing to do something and it makes me feel "used"
Consequence: I just SAY " I am not comfortable with this. I've changed my mind." That's it.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I struggled with boundaries until I quit being codependent.

Once I fixed that boundaries just came naturally.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

I feel some kind of action is coming up.

I know what I *want* to do, I am just not sure how I want to do it.

I don't know whether to wait untill I have spent longer on myself and upping my own game.

Makes me sad still that he knows how I feel and we are at this point... which for him is exactly the same as a year ago.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

That's because it's not him that needs to change. It's you.
The rest will follow, as it's meant to.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

This is true. 

Sometimes I wish I had a time machine and could go forward and see how this pans out.

Or go back and tell myself the things I am just learning now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Today has been an odd day.

I had fully planned to sit H down and have a talk... Not a "woe is me, you make me so unhappy" talk, but a straight up, balls to the wall, start owning your sh!t because I ain't doing it for you no more. Specific conditions to be fulfilled and maintained within a timeframe. Or I am leaving.

It is something I have been thinking about for a while. I have ironed out the practicalities and the actions I may need to take and worked out a timeframe.

Today threw me. It was a classic example of the dysfunctional dynamic between us. That is, he predictably acts like an idiot, breaks his word, I get angry and he goes crazy trying to placate me. Trouble is this happens every week. Today just highlighted how messed up things are and showed clearly how little respect he has.

So tomorrow we will talk.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Walking,
Last weekend I was finding the same thing. And disturbed that weekends seem to be battle time. Every.single.weekend.

I like the thought of a balls to the wall convo, when I did this, it was a convo about the truth. Just simply saying I want to talk about the truth. Here it is. This is where things stand. No judgements, no complaining, just no more pretending. Acknowledging what is. Not providing answers, either. 

But I was willing to say I accept the truth. I can't say what yours is.

In my case it meant acknowledging that there is no relationship.
-not meeting each other's needs
-not able to be vulnerable enough to be "real"

I didn't ask for anything. Didn't issue an ultimatium. Just ended it by saying "If you wanted to.... you would". I accept that. 

The point of it, was for me, not him. 

And yes, I do have a timeline. And a plan. 
I am steadily working on me. When my personal deadline approaches, I will consider my options at that time. 

Until then, I don't bring it up. At all. 
I just practice enforcing my boundaries. 
There is no wiggle room in those. 

It was only when I did the "truth" talk and backed off completely did he make any changes whatsoever. In my case, it was because I gave him freedom. And stuck to taking care of me. I started showing respect for myself.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Weekends here too are the same. It pans out that we are so busy in the week that allthough we sit together watching TV, often after an hour or two I go to bed because I am so tired. And that time can also be spent dealing with kids who want stuff, or if the littlest won't go to sleep.

The weekends are when we have that time together and so it makes the problems, that we can put aside during the week, very "real." H spotted the weekend argument pattern before I did.

I keep throwing around my plan in my head. It has been confusing because today so far, H has been great. He felt bad about the bad day we had yesterday and I can see has been super nice because of it. This is the H I love being around-if you remove the ulterior motive of him trying to nice me out of being angry or upset. It is a shame he cannot be like this just because he wanted to.

I keep going back to something he said when we had our weekend away not long ago. When I said I wished things could be like this at home, and he said they can't. It's funny, he walks around with the weight of the world on his shoulders, yet he is the one doing nothing about it. I feel that in an indirect way I am being punished for him being unhappy with his life.

We may talk later depending on how the day goes.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Well that was a mess...

Started "the talk." Did not finish as we had to go out.

Lots was said. Was very calm mostly.

The main thing I picked up is I think H is depressed. He said a lot of stuff that screamed depression. This explains a lot but without his input and effort this is going to prove a real stumbling block to well, everything.

With that tainting everything it is hard to work out what is real. He did say that he wished we had never gone to MC, as he is constantly analyzing his thoughts and what he is doing or has done. He thinks it is too much, and that I do the same, I break everything down way too much.

He also said he hears what I say but said he does not really understand. He does not know how to put himself in other people's shoes a lot of the time ( his words.) I said I knew but I did not buy that because I had pre-empted that and broken things down in to as logical a way as I felt I could ( ie when you did x I felt unhappy, if you do a, b and c that will help me feel better) and he has not done a, b and c.

He then basically told me I was bottom of the list. That he has enough trouble getting through the day without me asking for stuff from him as well. He thinks I am asking him to make me feel better and that it should be *me* doing that.

The upshot of this so far? That's a lot of stuff that *I* cannot do ANYTHING about. Except decide how I deal with it.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Walking,
He may simply be "stuck".
In the past, he believed you were looking for self esteem affirmation. He hasn't changed his view on that, and maybe isn't ready to get "real" in the same way that you are.

I do believe that you may be right about a bit of depression or unwillingness to look at inner happiness \ peace. 

My H is certainly also stuck. So I let him go. Not in the way of being a walk away wife or giving up on him, but in the sense that I no longer bring up my needs, wants, or expectations. 

If he wanted to do those things, he would.
If he knew how to do those things, he would.

I noticed something about 8 months ago. The moment I bring up "you don't do this for me", I hear him say I am being selfish.
And if I think about it that way.... I would think the same thing. 
The minute you ASK for behavior that should be automatic, it does seem selfish. It smells of insecurity. 

Then I realised just how often I do it for them! But I don't consider it selfish when they ask or expect things from me. Why? Boundaries and lack of respect for myself.

That does not mean I am going to sit here and feel sorry for myself. I just stop putting my energy into maintaining the illusion of a "marriage according to today's society".

And I re-wrote all my standards, needs, wants. 
I decided that it was a need for me to give love, not receive it. 
I had it all backwards! 

My purpose in life is to learn to love. Then give it away. 
Because unless you give it away, no feels it. 

If you are too busy blocking people from getting close to you, you aren't giving love back either. And it shows. 

As for the basics of life.... affection, sex, the whole his needs her needs... I will ONLY give as much as I get. Anything else makes me feel uncomfortable, so its a boundary now.

I do not keep score. I simply give love, and if I feel the person is blocking it, isn't willing to accept it, then that means I'm giving more than they would. So I back off. I dont' even get angry about it anymore. 

I trust that one of two things will happen. Either my spouse will wake up to being able to accept me and be vulnerable, or I will meet someone who will. Either way, it's a win for me. I'm not giving up who I am, or closing myself off to be bitter. No way. 

My entire life has changed with thinking this way. It's all good. Everything just works out. I feel so much more peaceful.
I sound nuts, I know.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

No, I get it. It makes sense. It sounds very calm and zen actually. I know I am not in that place yet. I do not have that level of detachment yet.

And I was thinking about this. I have realized I cannot do stuff for him. I have stepped away from the persuasion, the guilting. But I am not fully there on whether to continue with him and to support him in love, or to lovingly detach.

My feeling is the latter. I know if he is depressed I want to support him. But I do *not* want to enable him to continue behaving as he is/has been BECAUSE of that depression. One of my lightbulb moments has been how he has dragged me along with his depression and bad feelings, and how I believed for a long time that it was somehow because I was not a "worthy" person, that in some way he was treating me how he was because it was what I deserved.

I know now that is not true. But I do feel resentfull. And incredibly sad at how that ruined a lot of good stuff. And I feel that being unconditionally loving has meant I have been taken advantage of.


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

Deejov offers a high form of self improvement--giving love with faith and see who you attract to yourself. 

I know you ladies thought I was unreasonable in what I was asking my wife to do to pursue me. It progressed to where "she needed me" and she has done all I hoped for 3 of 5 days so I guess I learned something. I think there needs to be a certain tension and uncertainty. It is others getting what you want for yourself or something which is just outside of your grasp. A man needs to be true to his life's purpose and I imagine a woman doing the same exudes quiet strength and magnetism. Often the best answer is not intuitive. Often the best answer is the simple one. Live with love and share it everywhere you can.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

walkingwounded said:


> Well that was a mess...
> 
> Started "the talk." Did not finish as we had to go out.
> 
> ...





walkingwounded said:


> No, I get it. It makes sense. It sounds very calm and zen actually. I know I am not in that place yet. I do not have that level of detachment yet.
> 
> And I was thinking about this. I have realized I cannot do stuff for him. I have stepped away from the persuasion, the guilting. But I am not fully there on whether to continue with him and to support him in love, or to lovingly detach.
> 
> ...


I know what you mean. It's not unconditional love, not for me.
Not in that sense.

What I did not add was...
I can be loving, caring. Respectful. I wouldn't want to see my H get hit by a bus, and I hope his life goes well.
But I FIRED him as a husband. 
He's free to do whatever he wants. 
I don't expect him to do anything. There's no conditions to me caring about him.
There ARE conditions to being a husband. He's not meeting them. He's not able to. So I dont' ask him to.

He hasn't run away. He's stepped up immensely. His choice.
When my timeline has run out, I'll initiate a talk about it. See where we both stand. 

But I cannot live half closed off, hiding who I am. Not anymore.


Resentment is still a minor issue for me. I have triggers. I still go see a professional for help with letting it go. I won't say I've overcome it, but I'm much more at peace with it. It's for me, no one else. It felt like losing an elephant off my shoulders.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Cre8ify said:


> Deejov offers a high form of self improvement--giving love with faith and see who you attract to yourself.
> 
> I know you ladies thought I was unreasonable in what I was asking my wife to do to pursue me. It progressed to where "she needed me" and she has done all I hoped for 3 of 5 days so I guess I learned something. I think there needs to be a certain tension and uncertainty. It is others getting what you want for yourself or something which is just outside of your grasp. A man needs to be true to his life's purpose and I imagine a woman doing the same exudes quiet strength and magnetism. Often the best answer is not intuitive. Often the best answer is the simple one. Live with love and share it everywhere you can.


I was honestly a bit confused about where you were at... but very glad to hear things are going well for you


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

deejov

I can relate to some of what you say. Not all: I *do* expect (want?) things from him. I can see ( and understand) why he has not stepped up with these things, but I guess I am holding him to a standard, and fully expect him to deliver stuff that I think within a marriage is reasonable to expect.

I *do* have a picture in my head of what the marriage will look like after "improvements." And I am not setting him up to fail. Some of the things I want him to do:

*** see the doctor about a handfull of things. One being the condition he has that causes him to stay up late and thus sleep late that I have mentioned previously.

*** instigate lifestyle changes, such as cutting way back on his alcohol intake and running his life on a family friendly sleep schedule.

*** relationship "maintenance." His belief that a good relationship should just be "good" without any work needs to go. He needs to fulfill the things I need to feel belief in how he *says* he feels but does not show via actions.

Since we spoke on Sunday, he has been trying. Texts every day from work ( funny how before he said he just did not have the time...), and being super helpfull at home. No sign yet of anything doctor related or cutting back on beers. I am going to sit back and watch how this pans out.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Feeling down today.

Feel very ugly and unattractive and wonder what there is for H to like. Not sure why. Had a good night last night with the older two kids when I took them out so is in complete contrast to how great I felt last night.

Have been feeling quite OK so this is a real change in mood. I think I am looking for something that I am not getting off H... Some kind of spontaneous affection. I am not even sure I know myself. Sounds stupid I know but I long for something heartfelt and off his own back.

This is the problem with a hopeless romantic married to, well, someone who is not. Good call on my part huh?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I'm sorry you're having a bad day.


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

Your not the only one ww. You are doing what you can and thats all any of us can do ...invite our spouses to come with us.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Mavash. said:


> I believe now that sleeping a lot with men is a form of checking out. I know because my husband did it too.
> 
> He was avoiding ME.


That has been true for me (a man) at times, I think. But, most often it is because I truly am exhausted. When wife has been out if town, I have slept a few times for 12-13 hours straight. I have sleep apnea, and treat it, but treatment helps only so much.

Please understand I haven't read this thread or yours yet, but I just wanted to say sometimes sleep is not directly an avoidance strategy.

Strange I felt motivated to comment, as I am convinced my nocturnal wife keeps her sleep schedule the polar opposite of mine, in order to avoid a relationship with me.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Mavash. said:


> Spoken for truth. I struggled for years being the higher drive spouse. I focused on sex and ignored the part where my husband was neglecting me. Lack of sex was a symptom not the real problem.


I've stopped thinking much of sex with my wife. It's possible the lack of sex was its own isolated thing for awhile, or just a symptom -- I don't know. But it sure worked to destroy our marriage, so many troubles got set in motion by it.

Recently, after an emotional, possibly bond-creating, conversation I kissed her. Gently but with feeling. She reciprocated, briefly, then turned away. I made it clear that I was not trying to pursue sex, and then tried again to give and get some affection. Same thing-- 5 seconds, and she turned away. I respectfully inquired about her evasiveness, and she claimed she had bad breath. I suggested she fix that and come back. She got up in a huff. 

It made it clear her "withholding" and alleged LDness is now just a symptom. And, it sure feels like, well hell yes, those periods of denying sex were indeed rejections of me, and my needs. I used to feel shame and overly selfish for thinking "really, just a HJ after months of nothing is too much to ask?" We'll, I'm pretty sure I'm not asking for too much when I ask for a few minutes of kissing, especially at the tail end of a discussion that seemed like a recommitment to heal ourselves and our all but dead marriage.

To anyone reading, I would urge you to fix the non-sex issues. But while doing so, implement a plan to at least go through the motions of affectionate physical relations regularly enough, if only to avoid the disintegration of everything you have left,


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

walkingwounded said:


> This is the problem with a hopeless romantic married to, well, someone who is not. Good call on my part huh?


My therapist would tell me, if I said that out loud to her, that it is my depression talking. I'd think to myself, "yeah, but its true." Not sure what to do about it, or how there is possibly a good reason to stop it. (Just started IC).

Not saying you are depressed, and I certainly don't want to encourage you to bottle up such thoughts. But it is the sort of thing she said I say to myself often, and it seems important to her that I start recognizing it and do something else. Not sure what yet.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

walking,
can you take some alone time this weekend? Go out for the day,without the kids?


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

The older kids should be going for a sleepover at their grandparents tomorrow night. So that leaves the younger... I might go skating tomorrow. Probably on my own but that is fine.

I dressed up nice today. Nothing fancy, a dress I pull out now and again. When things are particularly bad, I have noticed I dress up a little to get some casual outside "validation." A bit of attention. I guess to reassure myself in a way that it's not because I am horrendously ugly that H is slack.

It is weird though, because H sent me some texts today asking how his "hot" wife was. Saying that was like he was talking to someone else. I just cannot believe it. May be it will take time. I do not know.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Believe it.... you can find the positive in it just as easily as you can find the negative. You just choose to believe the validations that reflect your own. So keep on believing in yourself -- you are worth it!

I love skating!


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

My husband started doing things like that 6 months ago and I still struggle believing it.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

If some random guy told me I was hot, I could totally believe it. But from H? Difficult. 

My "truth" is he finds me passable at most.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I believe mine is sincere but then again he had a HUGE wake up call.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Had a stupid weekend argument again about H sleeping in late.

I wanted the bedroom to fix my hair out the way of the kids. Brought him a drink and explained. Kids came up then and were wandering in and out to play and see daddy. He got annoyed at his wake up call. I said the only one he likes is where I leave him alone to sleep till lunch.

He did his usual nicey nicey routine when he eventually got up. He then said what did it matter any way? Told him he was being ridiculous and that given last week I had told him I was on the brink of leaving, I could not believe he was going to continue laying in past the time we agreed and be so blase about it.

He said I was a control freak.

It degenerated from there. He said I allways wanted everything my own way. I said yes, sometimes I do. I told him he had no drive to better himself. He said change had to come from him and I couldn't control that. Yeah I replied, but you have had a long time to do that and what is going to motivate you to start now?

That ended there. But later on he reached out to me (literally) and said he'd just had a burst of empathy and could see how I feel. He would not elaborate or say anything else so I left it. But it was really odd. I am still thinking about it now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

It often gets worse before it gets better.

Hugs.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Yeah. The thing is in these kind of interactions I can see SO MUCH more clearly now what is happening. 100 ways to blame me for his laying in. I just thought I had not hit on the right thing to do. That I was in some way being unreasonable even though it was *him* who agreed he would get up at 11am and never does. 

I realized there *is not* a right way for me to deal with him laying in late in his eyes except leave him alone to get up when he wants. That way he passive aggressively deals with it... agrees to something he has no intention of sticking to then makes it out to be MY fault he has not gotten up.

What I posted last ^^^ When I said what I said about how we had had that talk about me being close to leaving last week... The look on his face. Was. A. Picture. It was like someone had just slapped him around the face. He clearly did not think I meant it.

Today? It has been GREAT. Seriously. The youngest woke up at 7am, H pretty much got up rightaway. I nodded off again and woke at 9.30am to find him and the kids in the bedroom, him dressing the kids ( clothes are in our room) to take them out for fun stuff. He literally NEVER does this on a Sunday, instead naps on the sofa which I HATE and have told him he should not do.

They all went out happily, I got some peace and quiet, had a shower in peace, had breakfast and started to clean up the kitchen. They got back all happy and the kids played outside. He got to work in the garden cutting the grass and said how much better he felt for getting up and about instead of lounging around.

I made food, we all ate then went out for a drive and to pick up some stuff he wanted for outside. We snuck in some adult time right after we got back when the littlest was half asleep and it was awesome. He then finished a repair on the car he had been working on for a while. All moods are upbeat and happy... I can safely say that today has so far been our best day in a long time. I do not know if it was to placate me but he actually tested himself and came out well. I feel pleased for him ( and me... and us  )


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

It's amazing what happens when you call these PA men on their BS. And yes it is BS. Life changes dramatically when you stop taking the blame for why THEIR life isn't working.

Good job.


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

The most important thing I have learned on TAM--you have to be willing to lose it to save it. Your tone has changed and he has heard it and started to visualize going it alone.

Here is the next challenge--he was animated to action by "dread" or avoiding some horrible thing. That works but it is hard to sustain because of the desperation and those toxic chemicals he feels in his stomach. I imagine you would prefer to motivate him with positive, glittering images of what the future could be. Here is where "fake it til you make it" applies.

One of the surest ways to make good decisions IMO is to have the timing right. To recognize the threshold and not fear the call to act. Pull the trigger before the Y in the road and the lack of information has you blindly foraging through the woods. Too late, and you fight back to the choice you passed up, not knowing if a chasm will permanently block you. Failing to decide still has us going down a path, just not one of our choosing.

You seem to have had a good weekend. Try to see it in this larger context. The bigger picture might help to smooth some things out and keep you on the trail.


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## saving relationships (Apr 22, 2013)

The most important thing you can do is work on bringing back that self confidence you feel you have lost. spend time in your day relaying positive affirmations to yourself. keep telling yourself your are beautiful and sexy, and soon the affirmations wont just be a conscious act, it will lye on the subconscious level. This is just one among many ways you can take back your confidence.

For original post*


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> It's amazing what happens when you call these PA men on their BS. And yes it is BS. Life changes dramatically when you stop taking the blame for why THEIR life isn't working.
> 
> Good job.


I want to say "thanks" but I am not sure if that was anything to do with me, or it was all him...?



Cre8ify said:


> The most important thing I have learned on TAM--you have to be willing to lose it to save it. Your tone has changed and he has heard it and started to visualize going it alone.
> 
> Here is the next challenge--he was animated to action by "dread" or avoiding some horrible thing. That works but it is hard to sustain because of the desperation and those toxic chemicals he feels in his stomach. I imagine you would prefer to motivate him with positive, glittering images of what the future could be. Here is where "fake it til you make it" applies.


Yup. I agree with this. I have been laying it on thick with how pleased I am and how it has been lovely, and last night a couple of times H said what I had been saying about how it had been a really good day. It was good to hear it from him and not him just nodding along with me saying it.



Cre8ify said:


> One of the surest ways to make good decisions IMO is to have the timing right. To recognize the threshold and not fear the call to act. Pull the trigger before the Y in the road and the lack of information has you blindly foraging through the woods. Too late, and you fight back to the choice you passed up, not knowing if a chasm will permanently block you. Failing to decide still has us going down a path, just not one of our choosing.


Again I agree. I had a timeframe formulated around the lease on our house and what I felt to be an appropriate period of time for H to work on things. I have not told H about the exact timeframe but have as I mentioned indicated the severity of the situation and a pressing need to work on things.




Cre8ify said:


> You seem to have had a good weekend. Try to see it in this larger context. The bigger picture might help to smooth some things out and keep you on the trail.


Yup. I think if things do continue to get good, I may have to look at letting some things go as well as him keeping up to scratch with the big stuff. Knowing what to pursue and what t leave.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Glad to read things are getting better! And yes, it is you.
It takes so darn long to retrain your brain to think a certain way, and when it becomes reality for you, it becomes reality for them.

The effects of boundaries and consequences. 

I have a similar timeline, and no I'm not telling him about it either. I've already gotten through my list of what's important and what isn't, and I felt pretty free at that point. Felt like I shrugged it off my shoulders and dumped it onto the people that owned it. It felt good!!!


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

It is you.

It only takes one to change a dynamic.

Boundaries and consequences indeed.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Things ticking over OK.

I can feel a very slight shift again in H. The low level gestures as I call them are continuing. This to me, allthough I have said it is pretty low effort IMO, is still good because he is being consistent. He is doing things like he holds out his hand for me to hold when I am getting up to go to bed. He holds out his arms to beckon me over for a hug. The most significant thing I have noticed is that he is reciprocating my affections more. He still on occasion flinches or jumps but he seems a lot more at ease with it.

The flipside is that there has been no indication of any "big stuff" being put into practice. He is continuing the same with his late nights, not cut down on his alcohol intake, nor made any effort to visit the doctor. He still rolls out of bed 5 minutes before he has to leave for work. Whilst we agree that I will take care of getting the kids ready in the mornings, it is a busy job and I cannot help feel annoyed that he is laying in because he has gone to bed late. Also I feel angry that he is setting a REALLY bad example to the children.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Glad to hear he is doing better with the affection.

Whatever routine he has going on with the alcohol and staying up late... he's getting something out of it. A coping mechanism of some kind, as opposed to just a habit.

I don't see where any discussion is going to change that. 
If it was me... I would simply carry forward with life. I would be annoyed that he's getting up too late during the week, and I wouldn't hide it either. I'd tell him that it would be appreciated if he pitched in, but you are quite capable of taking care of it by yourself. (that's the truth, and just lets him know you are annoyed, not needy) 

I simply would not be around on weekend mornings. Lots of fun stuff to do. Pretend he isn't there. Cleaning, shopping, parks, stuff with the kids. 

When you have small kids, your life does need to revolve around their schedules, in the mornings. That's the truth about life. 

If he wants to hide behind whatever is going on... don't let it affect your life, or the kids. And don't hide it for him. 

It's not hateful behavior. It's truthful. If you are able to look at the facts, not the emotions. It is what it is. He's got an issue that he won't or can't address, and so you are parenting solo in the mornings. 

If you decide that's not what you want from a marriage, then it's up to you what you want to do do about it. Assume it's never going to change. Unless he gets tired of never seeing his kids or his wife. If he's lucky... you will still be willing to discuss stuff.

btw.. when I told my husband he was "fired" because he simply wasn't acting like a husband... and I said I realised if he wanted to, he would, or find out how... he made changes in his behavior almost immediately. When I let him go completely, totally. 
He's still free to do whatever he wants, and I expect nothing from him, because he's been fired. I get more husband behavior now than ever.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Fire your husband yep I did it too. Lol

And you're right when you do that you get more husband behavior than ever.

So weird how that works.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Mavash. said:


> Fire your husband yep I did it too. Lol
> 
> And you're right when you do that you get more husband behavior than ever.
> 
> So weird how that works.


Interesting. Sounds exactly like "reverse psychology".


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

Explain "firing" your husband. What is he being discharged from? What duties? Who is to satisfy those husbandly duties? This is not asking for divorce? Why not?

Thats a risky game of semantics, glad it worked.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Cre8ify said:


> Explain "firing" your husband. What is he being discharged from? What duties? Who is to satisfy those husbandly duties? This is not asking for divorce? Why not?
> 
> Thats a risky game of semantics, glad it worked.


Firing him meant I let him go. I discharged him from calling, texting, notifying me of his schedule, etc. I stepped aside to let work be a priority. I would take care of the kids. I would make new friends to hang out with. I'd have fun on my own. I'd get back into hobbies I'd abandoned because he had been the focus of my life for too long. He did not return the favor. EVERYTHING came before me/kids.

I didn't want a divorce because overall we got along, he's nice, he provides, we have young kids, he didn't cheat, wasn't abusive, no addictions, and we were having sex. Our sex life was not exactly what I wanted but I decided I could live with it.

I was just way more hot for him than he was me so I accepted this fact and rocked on. Wasn't bad enough to leave him over. Overall he's a good guy and we've got 23 years together.

The irony is when I fired him he didn't like that so much so he chose to do better and he has.

I'm happy.


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

If Mavash is happy he's happy.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Cre8ify said:


> If Mavash is happy he's happy.


I was happy when I fired him. 

Right after I fired him I traveled out of town TWICE - just me and the kids to visit friends/family and had a BLAST.

He HATED it. LOL


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

My wife is the best mother in recorded history. Could I just fire her as a wife or is that too sharp of a razor's edge?


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

For me, firing meant looking at husband as a job, and him as a person. Still adore the person. The husband is fired. He's free to move out if he wants to. No expectations. Don't ask for anything a "husband" would do.

Not repsonsible for meeting my needs, going on dates, telling each other where we are, what's going on. Freedom. For BOTH of us.
He resisted all attempts to work on the relationship.
So I said... we don't have one. 
That's the truth. Because he was drinking too much and he was\is a mess. 

And same with me... I got a life. Started going out by myself and with friends. No longer home. Happy, too. 


Instead, he quit drinking and started getting some help. 

Mostly because it became clear that I was going to be just fine, dandy, and HAPPY, with or without him. 


Different than a divorce because I don't hate him. We are friends. Just calling it what it is. Friends, not husband and wife. 
It was a huge relief off my back.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Things still going OK.

Odd thing happened earlier. I was out with the littlest child and when we got back, I noticed H had been home and gone out again. Called him and he was at the doctors. When he came home he told me he had a good talk with the doctor about a lot of things which he will tell me all about later this evening.

This of course was what I have been wanting him to do. Now, what he spoke about I do not know yet but this in itself is good. I have not pressed him or pushed him, merely told him I wanted him to and left it at that.

The other thing is I have noticed my default mode has changed. I really *have* stopped talking talking talking about stuff. I have become more blunt. Not rude though. It is something I have been working on but it is feeling more natural now. Not just with H but with people. It is so liberating to not have to sugar coat stuff or dress it up and not worry about what people will think. I am seeing so much how I used to behave in certain situations and how it really did not help. Not saying what I *really* thought. Assuming other people understood/comprehend things the way I do. A degree of passive agressiveness. A little silent treatment. Covert contracts. Wow I sound a real treat!

Seriously, I was way too nice. I have been so scared of people. Worried what they would think. Did not draw boundaries well and enforced them less well. Not sure what I thought would happen in doing that. "I am so nice! Be nice back to me! Please! Why are you so mean? Look at me still being nice and you are *still* being mean! I am so good to you why don't you appreciate me still being nice?!"


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

I'm similarly changing my "nice" default behavior too. I know you are female, but wonder if the book I'm reading, No More Mr. Nice Guy, would be useful to you too.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

If I were a guy I would *definitely* have read that allready. I haven't though as a gal  I do not know how it translates to a nice gal... Has anyone read it who can advise?


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

walkingwounded said:


> If I were a guy I would *definitely* have read that allready. I haven't though as a gal  I do not know how it translates to a nice gal... Has anyone read it who can advise?


I've barely started reading it (shame on me, because I sense I really need to). FWIW, here's an excerpt from the author's website (No More Mr. Nice Guy! - The Nice Guy Syndrome), BUT edited to reverse the gender and continue to assume a heterosexual relationship. I don't know if that speaks to you or not! Just thought it might be interesting to read...


The Nice Girl Syndrome	

"I'm one of the nicest girls I know."
"How come I always seem to give so much more than I get?"
"All I want is to be appreciated, is that asking too much?"
"I can never do it right."

Sound familiar? These are typical Nice Girl sentiments. A nice girl's primary goal is to make others happy. Nice girls have been conditioned to believe that if they are good, giving, and caring, they will be loved, get what they want, and have a smooth life.

Who is a nice girl?	
She is the relative who lets her husband run the show.
She is the friend who will do anything for anybody, but whose own life seems to be in shambles.
She is the girl who frustrates her husband because she is so afraid of conflict that nothing ever gets resolved.
She is the boss who tells one person what they want to hear, then reverses himself to please someone else.
She is the woman who lets people walk all over her because she doesn't want to rock the boat.
She is the dependable girl at work who will never say "no," but would never tell anyone if they were imposing on her.
She is the woman whose life seems so under control, until BOOM, one day she does something to destroy it all.
In general, nice girls share the following characteristics:	
Nice girls seek the approval of others.
Nice girls try to hide their perceived flaws and mistakes.
Nice girls put other people's needs and wants before their own.
Nice girls sacrifice their personal power and often play the role of a victim.
Nice girls tend to be disconnected from other women and from their own feminine energy.
Nice girls co-create relationships that are less than satisfying.
Nice girls create situations in which they do not have very much good sex.
Nice girls frequently fail to live up their full potential.
If the characteristics listed above fit you or someone you know, read on. No More Mr. Nice Girl! presents a proven plan to help passively pleasing women stop seeking approval and start getting what they want in love and life.
Order your copy of No More Mr. Nice Girl!
Find Out If You Are A Nice Girl	

Take the No More Mr. Nice Girl! Self-Assessment


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

walkingwounded said:


> If I were a guy I would *definitely* have read that allready. I haven't though as a gal  I do not know how it translates to a nice gal... Has anyone read it who can advise?


Read the nice factor. It's free in PDF form online just google it.

Don't bother with no more mr nice guy. I liked it but its not for women.

I read another nice girl book and its called the nice girl syndrome.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

I 've read both... for me, it's a case of not having boundaries and enforcing them. But I did that because I had no self esteem, and was afraid to be alone. (who would want me??). When I fixed both of those things, I got nice with intelligence.

I will be truthful, instead. 

True or false...
These actions reflect how I feel about myself, and contribute to my positive sense of self esteem.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

How did things turn out at the doctor's?


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

He told me later that he had spoken about a handfull of things to his doctor. Two of which were things I really wanted him to, one being this condition he has that is interfering with his sleep, thus the late nights and sleeping in. It isn't *that* simple, in fact it is nothing like it sounds, but it is an issue for H which has turned it in to an issue for us.

Doc has ordered blood tests which will we are hoping will shed a lot of light on things.

I am kinda blue atm. The above ^^^ is good, don't get me wrong. It is the start of my period today so I am fully expecting a week's worth of no action.

I know some women and guys are like this. It does not bother me. It bothers him. It bothers me that it did not used to bother him but now it does. He says it has *allways* bothered him but he never used to say. I don't even know what that means.

I have been focussing a lot on the practical stuff that H is doing. He has been getting better.

Thing is, the sexual side has been quietly nagging at me. He dutifully offers the "early night" once a week. Which is cool, I like he remembers, it is his way of meeting half way with my earlier nights and his late nights, so we do not "miss" each other all week. Then at some point he will ask me to "give him a hand." Which I do. But I cannot help thinking why is he asking for that when we could just have sex? May be it is just me but I still do not get why he would settle for a HJ when we have opportunity for sex, he knows I want more and we have similar drives? FWIW he says it mixes things up a bit. I think it's a cop out.

It has raised a query even more because I can see he is regularly looking at porn. A couple of times a week at least. I do not have an issue with that in and of itself... it is that he is whacking off to it when he knows I want more.

I can see he hits the porn a) when he has stayed up later than me and b) right before he gets up when he has lay in.

I have not raised this recently because I am not really sure what to make of it. He says sometimes he is just horny and wants to get off without having sex. Which I get... but it brings us back around to a major part of the original problem. The majority of our sex life is based on what HE wants and WHEN he wants it.

I *do* feel happier and better about things recently. But a major MAJOR part is still missing and I cannot see he has thought even a little bit about that. May be my perpetuating hope that he will have a breakthrough and suddenly "get" what he did by rejecting me all those times and how it has affected us, is just that... a hope.


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## golfergirl (Dec 8, 2010)

walkingwounded said:


> He told me later that he had spoken about a handfull of things to his doctor. Two of which were things I really wanted him to, one being this condition he has that is interfering with his sleep, thus the late nights and sleeping in. It isn't *that* simple, in fact it is nothing like it sounds, but it is an issue for H which has turned it in to an issue for us.
> 
> Doc has ordered blood tests which will we are hoping will shed a lot of light on things.
> 
> ...


I do have a strange question. With all the emotions going through you, how do you even want to still have sex with him? I mean there is a major disconnect? Why would you hj him with nothing in return without a question or comment or nothing in return? Does he do anything for you or you take care of him and just lay there frustrated? Why are you so scared to say, 'it doesn't cut it for me tonight, i'd rather make love to you and if I can't, I'd rather postpone for another night'.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

I do still want to have sex because I love him and find him very attractive. It is hard to qualify because rationally I know he has been an idiot and there is lingering resentment. But the desire is still there.

He will ask for a HJ. I will say don't you want to do more? And he will say, I just fancied doing this now. That means it's that or nothing. If I do not help out he will just do it by himself. I never say no because I do not want to push any kind of contact away.

He will *allways* offer to return the favor. He is never selfish like that. He allways makes sure I get mine if that is what I want. More and more recently I have found myself declining him taking care of me. I do not outright say "I feel resentfull because you will not have sex but would rather have a HJ" but that is the feeling.

It is a dynamic that confuses me and I am not sure what to do with.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Rather have a hj implies porn might be a problem.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

I am not sure M. It's not like the amount he views concerns me exactly. In itself it is OK.

We were just talking about it. He reiterates that sometimes he just wants a quick release. I said that's fine but when you know I would like a little more, it is hurtfull. Like he clearly has desire, just not toward me as much as I would like. 

His final words were that he reckons all men are like this. Cited the case of his friend whose wife wants more ( or just some) sex. Friend would rather whack off to porn. I said that was dysfunctional. H did not really offer an opinion. I don't know if he truly thinks it is OK how we are. It is hard to tell.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

My husband gave me similar bs lines. All men are like this.

Um no they aren't.

And now that my husband is on T shots neither is he. Lol


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

I don't understand him. Fwiw, I'm a guy.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

I don't either PieceOfSky.

I remember once, just once, a while ago, he said one of the reasons he liked me was because I liked sex. Good yes?

Now I get the "you aren't the only woman to like sex you know." Stuff like that.

The way I see it, I am in a lose/lose situation. I initiate, get turned down ( probably), and I am putting pressure on him/ obsessed with sex/ a nympho/ insert your own derogatory comment about my sex drive here. 

I *don't* initiate and our sex life is led by him, on his terms. He can conveniently forget I have a libido outside of his.

I cannot claim we are sexless because we simply are not. Once/twice a week, when he says.

He is improving in other areas. I have not seen any corresponding improvement in the bedroom. I GENUINELY do not understand why he would search out porn to get off to when I am laying in bed next to him. Granted I may be asleep but he knows he is welcome any time to wake me up. I have said it more than once.

It sounds like the effort is too much when it is easier to knock one out. Like I say I get it sometimes, but for me it is a problem when he is doing that MORE a week than we are having sex and HE KNOWS I would like more.

And no, he does not get it. I am not going to even try because why? He has made his mind up. It's OK to him so... it is OK. And that is that.


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

Self service when you are not satisfied is pure selfishness. It might be OK to not have a problem with porn in theory...but how to square him burning any of his libido without you given your plainly stated position. 

The HJ might be a visual thing related to porn.



> "you aren't the only woman to like sex you know."


Why on earth would he say something like that! Your husband does have a great capacity to p1ss total strangers off.

Porn is lazy man's sex.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Cre8ify said:


> Self service when you are not satisfied is pure selfishness. It might be OK to not have a problem with porn in theory...but how to square him burning any of his libido without you given your plainly stated position.
> 
> The HJ might be a visual thing related to porn.
> 
> ...


He said that because he told me I had told him a number of times that he should feel pleased he has a wife that likes sex because plenty of men do not have that.

He has also said variations upon that sentence. All of which sound equally as unappreciative of what he has. The funny thing is the less I have initiated ( ie virtually nothing for going on a year), the more he has said it. He cannot say in ANY WAY I have even pressured him for sex so it does not make sense to me.

He swears the HJ thing is simply variety. If any guy wants to chime in on this feel free... If your W is ready to go, would you pick a HJ consistently over sex?

The more it comes down to it, the more I just do not feel valued as his wife. I can't put it any more clearly or succinctly. I do not feel unique, or special, or cherished. I would love to feel cherished.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

walkingwounded said:


> He swears the HJ thing is simply variety. If any guy wants to chime in on this feel free... If your W is ready to go, would you pick a HJ consistently over sex?
> 
> The more it comes down to it, the more I just do not feel valued as his wife. I can't put it any more clearly or succinctly. I do not feel unique, or special, or cherished. I would love to feel cherished.


I suppose a HJ can be easier to sit back and enjoy, and ad such is about as low stress as can be, which can be important if the receiver has any dort of performance anxiety. i have had a few HJ that she has done an exceptionally pleasurable job with, and it can be a different sort of experience. 

But, honestly, I can count on one, uhm, hand the number that felt that good, and I've probably had no more than 10 HJ in our twenty years together.

If my wife indicated she wanted me inside her, beside her, under her, on top of her, doing anything -- well, that's where I'd be. I'd give her whatever I thought she needed, to feel pleasure, to feel cherished. He is cheating you out of something you deserve, a basic human need. Why does he think he deserves the pleasure of a HJ and you do not deserve whatever it is that you need? 

Is he physically unable to do PIV sex? Does he have ED issues?

I'm sorry if you are hurting. This all should be easier.


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## golfergirl (Dec 8, 2010)

walkingwounded said:


> He said that because he told me I had told him a number of times that he should feel pleased he has a wife that likes sex because plenty of men do not have that.
> 
> He has also said variations upon that sentence. All of which sound equally as unappreciative of what he has. The funny thing is the less I have initiated ( ie virtually nothing for going on a year), the more he has said it. He cannot say in ANY WAY I have even pressured him for sex so it does not make sense to me.
> 
> ...


I'm not saying my way of thinking is right or you are wrong but these are random thoughts. If you don't feel valued or cherished, how do you have such string desire for him? I'm wondering if he feels used by you for sex. And his hj and porn is his way of 'punishing' you. Some of the stuff he has done to you, I wonder if the desire is more of a desperation on your part.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

> If your W is ready to go, would you pick a HJ consistently over sex?


I've been married for 21 years and I've only given my husband a handful of hj's. 

Overall he prefers PIV. Everything else is just foreplay.

Obviously we do other things when it's that time of the month.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

PieceOfSky, I should be clear that after his HJ, he does allways want to make sure I get the same. It just seems like a cop out to me to do that when there is no reason to not have sex.

No physical issues. No ED.

GolferGirl. Again, I cannot explain the desire. Logically I know what you say makes sense.

The desperation thing... I do not think that is the case. It is true that not all that long ago I was equating the amount of sex to his love for me. I do not think like that now. But it has been going on a year now since I actually initiated. He does not have that pressure. It has been the same I think since we spoke about frequency. So there is no pressure at all from me. Apart from the odd conversation that crops up I simply do not talk about it.

I have wondered if he is wielding a degree of power by his actions though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

H asks for HJs at least twice a week and usually more. And this is frequently in situations where there is nothing stopping us having sex, in fact ideal situations where the kids are out or at a sleepover. I feel this is happening more and more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

walkingwounded said:


> H asks for HJs at least twice a week and usually more. And this is frequently in situations where there is nothing stopping us having sex, in fact ideal situations where the kids are out or at a sleepover. I feel this is happening more and more.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Is he willing to provide PIV for you first, and anything else you desire to feel complete, and then get his HJ to completion last? I suppose he had not offered, but in curious of his reaction if you have asked. Don't feel obliged to answer


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Seems controlling. 

By you giving a HJ you are following his command.

Does he feel superior to you? 

How about sex rank?


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

PieceOfSky said:


> Is he willing to provide PIV for you first, and anything else you desire to feel complete, and then get his HJ to completion last? I suppose he had not offered, but in curious of his reaction if you have asked. Don't feel obliged to answer


I have not asked for that specifically. I have asked to do PIV *instead* but he said he did not want to. Says he wants the HJ, and likes me doing it because I am "really good" at it. There is the odd occasion when I start doing it and we get in to something more but that is the exception rather than the rule.



Catherine602 said:


> Any reason you keep giving him hj when it is clear that this is something that is endangering your marriage?
> 
> Can you see yourself masturbating him year after year 3 or 4 times a week? I don't think that will happen. You are reaching a tipping point where you will lose interest in him sexually and not want to have any kind of sex with him.
> 
> ...


Catherine

Background is key here to explain. Last year, H suddenly started rejecting me initiating.

Prior to that we had a good sex life, no problems. I would freely initiate at least 50% and more of the time. He started rejecting my initiations, over a period of months, sometimes 3x a week or more. He would still initiate so we were not sexless but I was effectively tuned out.

It killed my esteem and confidence. Now, a year later, I carry a LOT of resentment and am working on building myself up again. H refuses to acknowledge in any depth what happened and at times denies it ever happened. His "solution" to MY issues is to simply start initiating again and he just will not say no. I continue to not initiate and have scaled back massively outside the bedroom and some in the bedroom too. He has also recently decided he hates period sex ( was never a problem before) and rarely if ever gives oral. The latter is coming from a guy who previously said he *loves* giving oral. I was ambivalent about it initially but a year or two ago decided I wanted to stretch my horizons and see what I could do with it. I used to give him oral frequently but because of his reluctance to reciprocate I have stopped.

I have dealt and am dealing with a lot outside the bedroom to correct the balance but have yet to see any changes in the bedroom. The HJ thing is relatively recent, and I do it for him so I am not turning down contact. Simply put, I do not want to refuse him when I am the one complaining I want more... even if a HJ is not what I was thinking.

It is only quite recently I am realizing how this is not right. He of course is either trying to convince me or *is* convinced that it is fine. I am starting to see that it is NOT fine but am not sure how to handle this.



Trying2figureitout said:


> Seems controlling.
> 
> By you giving a HJ you are following his command.
> 
> ...


I thought controlling. Why? I am not sure.

I do not think he feels superior to me BUT I wonder if it is a way of asserting authority against me.

Sex rank? I feel we are evenly matched.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

This morning H came and found me asking for a HJ.

I went upstairs with him. He saw my face before I said anything and asked what was up. I said the same things that we had allready talked about. 

He sighed angrily, shook his head and got back up to get dressed, ranting about how it was fine, if I was going to be selfish then that was that, and stormed off downstairs.

I stayed put. Sure enough, ten minutes later he came back, hot drink in hand and wanting to know what he could do to make things better. MASSIVE turnaround from usual.

A heart to heart ensued. He maintains he absolutely does find me attractive. Listened and responded to my reasonings. Said he can understand completely why I feel he has been pushing me away but that was not the case at all. 

It was weird. He started rationalizing the HJ thing. I was sure to be logical about my feelings and as he listened he was struggling to align his logic with mine. Like he was thinking, well, I feel like this but hey, what she thinks... I totally get why she would think that. An attack of empathy lol.

I cannot say we solved it all today. But it was a step forward. He told me some very spontaneous and heartfelt thoughts about why he finds me attractive. Sounds like his brain is starting to tick over in a good way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

> He told me some very spontaneous and heartfelt thoughts about why he finds me attractive.


Solid Gold! Good for you.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

walkingwounded said:


> He sighed angrily, shook his head and got back up to get dressed, ranting about how it was fine, if I was going to be selfish then that was that, and stormed off downstairs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


In case you ever wonder, I suspect the consensus here would be he is being childly selfish, not you. Don't ever fall for that sort of attempt to make you out to be the hurtful/insensitive one here.

On more positive note, I'm glad he is starting to see he has something to learn here, and is willing to listen and think. So, he's got that going for him , in addition to a very loving and patient wife.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Oh yeah I do not fall for that. A while ago I would have but now I am so much clearer about what are his issues and where he tries to blameshift. I can deal with it a lot better now.

One of the things he said was that I was so patient. And I was forgiving, which he feels is a rare quality to have these days. Kept saying that.

Take from that what you will.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Walking,
If it makes you uncomfortable, then you are giving more than he would. That's how I judge MY boundaries.

I don't need someone to convince me they are right and I'm "foolish" for thinking I'm giving more than I am getting.

Passive Aggressive. I know what you want... but I'm not going to give it to you, because I'm punishing you at the moment. It's NOT my fault... it's yours. You just need to accept the way I am, and change your personal values. You are selfish if you ask for anything.... I'm more important, and my needs come first. 

It's a big shet test. How much of your soul will you give up to make him happy? 

If you are giving MORE than you are getting, STOP. If it makes you uncomfortable, STOP. 

It is the beginning of the road that takes away your confidence. Your actions and reactions should :
Enforce a positive self image of yourself. 

IMO, he's not capable of being vulnerable with you. He wants the upper hand, at all times. Which means your self esteem pays the price. 

Best wishes, stay strong, and be good to yourself. Trust in yourself. Protect yourself.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

You know what?

I feel I have learned so much since the new year. I feel so much more confident in handling myself in situations and thinking through what is happening at a given time.

I do feel less confident in the dynamics in the bedroom.

It is not the sex itself. It is the feelings surrounding it. I am still super sensitive about whether he finds me attractive. He does say things. I will give an example...

I mentioned in my previous post that he said some spontaneous and heartfelt things about why he found me attractive.

One of the things left me with really mixed feelings. The story behind it was this...

We had a date on Saturday night. We do not often go out just us two and had tickets to go see a comedian we were both looking forward to.

I had splashed out and bought a new outfit I had my eye on. I had decided last week to indulge a little and work on my wardrobe as a confidence boost. I felt really good.

H walked past as I was getting ready and said in passing I looked nice.

What he *actually* told me when we talked was that when we were out, he thought I looked really good, and he was looking around at other women to see if anyone else was dressed up nice like I was. Said everyone was in jeans and stuff and looked normal but I looked really nice and he felt proud. He noticed it again as every one was leaving and he was going to say something... but he didn't.

So what I *thought* he thought was a perfunctory "she looks all right." Turns out what he actually thought was a whole lot more... but I would NEVER have known that had we not had that conversation.

I just don't get it. Why on earth does he not volunteer stuff like this usually? He *knows* I want to hear stuff like this yet is keeping it from me when it could go so far to help.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

It's called emotionally unavailable.

I've got one of those.

He is trying to say what's in his head more instead of assuming I just "know".


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

H is terrible for that. Honestly I think he would be quite happy with telling me he told me he loved me in 2004 and didn't he say I looked nice on our wedding day and never having to worry about it again lol. 

When we talked the other day, there was a distinct lack of talk from him about the very thing this is all based around - his previous rejections of me. The most I got was that he "doesn't know why" he does a lot of things. 

At this point I am not hopefull of getting anything from him about it. It looks screamingly obvious he is not going to try and talk or address it in any way. I said something when upset about how it feels so unfair that I feel damaged by it and I am having to work on mending me by myself. He said life just isn't fair sometimes, and took no responsibility at all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Puppet syndrome. Even when they know what you want... instinct tells them not to do it. 

I'm not meaning to sound bitter. He is the way he is. For his own reasons, experiences, and that's how life shaped him. That does not mean it has to shape how you feel about yourself. It's your choice. Take on the negative, or brush it off and stick to the real you underneath all that. 

Yes, I know this sucks... but you do have to mend yourself. Yes, some things can be helpful, but I do believe when it comes from yourself it's real.

Hasn't he proven he's not a good influence? Don't give him the reins on your confidence. He'll destroy it. Let him go. Not your problem. The more you let go, the more FREE you become. 

It's hard to see... but he has all the power right now. He was able to effectively crush you before by repeated rejections. Afraid he will do it again? He will. If you let him. It's about taking back control over YOU, not giving up on him. The best thing you can do for him is put full responsibility for his own life back on his shoulders. 

When you stop expressing expectations that he already knows, and simply enforce them as boundaries... his behavior will change. Not before then. It's all bluff otherwise. 

--------------------------------------------------------------

I'm having similar thoughts around the sex thing and the feelings. 
I hate being "right". H was convinced all his problems were because of drinking. It's been 2 months sober... and his PA behavior still rears up. 

If I express myself about his behavior.. he gives me the PA treatment. Does things that he knows pushes my buttons. Definately no sex or intimacy. 

But I don't think of it as punishment anymore. It's not punishment when I'm not interested in playing games, and haven't initiated more than a hug in months. But he still tries to use the SAME game? I see it as true colors. Ooooh my feelings are so hurt because you made a big deal about not giving me a hug good night? Gawd. I speak the truth. If he doesn't like it, he should change it. I'm not bending my values for anyone. I will not sacrifice my self esteem or give him any power over how I feel about myself. No.Way. 

I question everything I do for others, and measure it to my values. I toss lots of things aside everyday. And I feel much happier for it. And so does everyone else in my life. complete strangers smile at me. I can't ride the elevator without people trying to start a conversation. 

I found respect for myself I don't have to accept that kind of BS. And I won't.


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## PleasePursue (May 6, 2013)

i have never felt so absolutely like someone was speaking the things i go through before. In many ways we are the same with similar husbands and sexual dynamics in our marriages. This has been incredible to read things i could have written myself. 

From the feeling of having to edit your level of flirtation and interest, to him telling you to focus on other things instead of your sex life, to the rejections, to him thinking marriage is "the end" of him having to pursue me, to me having to fish for complements because lord knows he doesnt volunteer them often, to him making excuses early on to prevent me fromeven trying anything, to him saying when its ok to be horny (he sometimes will give me a count in hours or days of when the last time we had sex was as if im abnormal for wanting it again.) 

Why on earth do they its ok to only have sex when theyre interested, as if our needs arent as important? I go back and forth between thinking he's just tired from work and that he is very passive aggressive and is somehow punishing me. I wonder often, did we create this by being a certain way or are they just a particular personality type? Did our behaviors form this dynamic? Im very interested to read your developments as i can use any advice you have.


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## PleasePursue (May 6, 2013)

omg did we marry the same man? lol where is your hubby right now?

i just read where you put he told you "life isnt fair" i hear that a lot and that "he doesnt know why" i hear that as well. I am gobsmacked by the similarities!

Has your husband ever said to you, "arent you on your period though?" like in a form of desperation??? that one made me upset. to which i said "that ended 4 days ago." ha


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

walkingwounded said:


> The most I got was that he "doesn't know why" he does a lot of things.


I'm ahead of where you are and guess what? When my husband said he didn't know why he did things he was actually telling the truth.

Go figure. LOL


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

deejov. Insightfull. I need to keep remembering that he does things because of HIM, not me. He has his own motivations.

I do not honestly know what to do with the rejection issue. I *think* he feels that by discussing how I feel about myself because of his rejections and how I have worked on that, that he is dealing with it, but indirectly. 

But that's not what I want. I WANT him to talk about it directly. I want him to think about it, consider what was going on at that time, and retrospectively realize just how what he said and did affected me. I want him to show remorse. That he feels deeply sorry for what he did AND that he is sorry that it has taken him this long to adress it. THEN I want him to show he cares about the damage he caused by carefully showing he is working to reverse it. To show me that indeed, he DOES NOT feel the way he appeared to feel but actually loves and cares for me very much and finds me ver attractive.

The funny thing is that he is trying to do the last bit without ANY of the rest of it.

PleasePursue. Wow. It is a bad place at times isn't it? Were things OK for the first part of your relationship?

I can tell you a few things I have realized since being here, they may or may not apply to you...

***I measured how often we had sex with how much he loved me or how attractive he found me. I no longer do the first one and am breaking through the second one.

***I measured my self worth with how he treated me. For a while I believed that how he was behaving was a reflection of how much of a "worthwhile" person I am. I realize now that this is clearly NOT true. I do still struggle with it at times but I can talk myself through it logically.

***I realized that how he treated me was not rooted in me solely but is like deejov just mentioned, deeply rooted in his own reasons and influences and feelings. How he acts is not because of me.

***I stopped taking responsibility for HIS issues. This was partly my own belief that I was in some way responsible because of my low self worth, and partly because he would blameshift. This is a very liberating thing... and helps you to see so much more clearly the dynamics playing out between you.

Mavash... I just don't think I can take that as an answer from him. I guess I am looking for SOMETHING from him. He thinks it is because my mind is trying to make sense of it all when he basically says all this stuff is not connected, there is no rhyme or reason to it. That is why I doubt I am going to get any insight from him. I do not think he has any to give me.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Mine has no insight whatsoever. I figured it out on my own.

I have all the answers I need now.

I just kept studying him until I figured it out.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

I know H is capable of insight. He just chooses not to. I think ( and this is piecing together things he has said) he does not like it because it makes him appear vulnerable and "not strong."

I believe also he cannot face up to being responsible for causing hurt and so he just ignores the situation. Head in sand. He would rather pretend or keep feelings to himself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I can see that. Mine would have felt like he could nothing right anyway so why own up to even more. Self protection.....I get it.


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

Men are not good at:

Acknowledging their feelings.

Accepting their feelings.

Communicating their feelings.

We are told from very young it makes us weak.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Being responsible for causing hurt would be a big step in personal growth. Someday he might. 

It does sound like you need him to acknowledge it, own it, and make amends for it. I can understand that.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> I can see that. Mine would have felt like he could nothing right anyway so why own up to even more. Self protection.....I get it.


H has said the same about not feeling he can do anything right.

I took a long hard look at myself and asked if despite my feelings, I *was* coming across as critical in other areas.

I felt that at times I was. Sometimes I did, and I realized, and I felt it was unnecessary. Pick your battles and all that.

Other times I was not actually BEING critical, but my choice of words and intonation made it sound to him that I was. I think more carefully about *how* I say things now and how they might come across.




Cre8ify said:


> Men are not good at:
> 
> Acknowledging their feelings.
> 
> ...


I agree with this. H is a prime example.



deejov said:


> Being responsible for causing hurt would be a big step in personal growth. Someday he might.
> 
> It does sound like you need him to acknowledge it, own it, and make amends for it. I can understand that.


He has touched on it but not delved any further in to it with the causing hurt.

I DO need him to own it and make it up. I get working on me, I do. But I cannot move forward WITH him if he does not make amends for the damage he has done. It was a drawn out thing and what makes it worse is he continues to evade taking any responsibility for it. He is my husband. He is not supposed to trip me up then repeatedly kick me when I am down then walk off telling me he does not remember doing it or why he would do it and expect me to pretend it never happened.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Once I cleaned up my side of he street my husband owned the damage he did to me.

The irony is by the time he did it I no longer cared.

It just wasn't important anymore.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

My worry, M, is that having forgiven him for his inappropriate, EA behavior, if I let this go, I am setting a precedent that he can be careless with his behavior and I will just tolerate it. That I will make a fuss and he can placate me and wallpaper over the cracks with a few half hearted apologies without ever actually reflecting on what he is doing and why and working to correct that.

I cannot stand a lifetime of that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Agree.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Trouble is I do not know if he will commit himself to deeply thinking about stuff and sharing it without some kind of push.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

I was browsing some of my older threads last night. Trying to get some kind of timescale prior to when I stopped initiating.

I realized the HJ thing has been going on longer than I thought.

I also realized looking and thinking back that I cannot remember there being a HJ issue prior to his EA, nor any issues of rejection. All these themes seem to have started AFTER his EA.

In my head recently, I have felt there is some kind of link between his EA and the issues I have been writing about here. I can safely say that up untill fairly recently, year before last, our sex life was good with no issues. I never had *any* doubts about his feelings for me.

Since his EA these issues have come in to focus. He says they are absolutely NOT linked in any way. Says I am trying to make sense of something that makes no sense kinda thing.

I am not sure what to make of it. It seems like a coincidence that we were fine, he had his EA, then bit by bit these issues reared their heads subsequently. My surface assumption is that the EA made him realize he did not find me as attractive as before. That or he had/has residual feelings for his OW.

I do not know. I would ask but it isn't as if he is going to say, oh yeah, the OW is way more attractive than you and I wish it was her when we are together...

Need to think this one through.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I feel like you are in the right path. And of course he denies it all because insight means ownership and he's not willing to do that at the moment.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Thing is I have broached this before like I mentioned. I did not explain it just as I have here, but explained I felt there was a link in that each time he was pushing me away further.

Of course there is no way I can ever really know how he felt about the OW. He really plays it down. It is difficult because it was not a full-blown affair. She tried to take it further but he did not want to, but he did indulge himself in the attention. Like he got close to the line but not enough to cross it so he was actually being unfaithfull.

He comes out with all the typical stuff you might expect, like she wasn't that nice, he never really liked her, he did not find her attractive... like I am supposed to believe that? He did say he found her attractive once right after I found out, but backtracked and has never said it since. I don't get it. I am not stupid but it feels like the more he says that, the more he thinks I will believe it?

I think he minimized that because he saw how hurt I was and wanted to make it seem like nothing. I wish he would just be brutally honest so I know what's going on... but then I do not want to convince myself one thing is the truth when it may be that he *is* being truthfull when he says there is no link.

Help! Am I overthinking this?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

People lie to maintain a smooth life.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Yup.

Well I got my answer.

He is at home right now. We were talking/arguing. Started over something silly. Got to the topic of this thread.

His answer is that he turned me down because... he felt pressured to have sex.

OK.

I will say. He has, by the sounds of it, zero recollection of any of this. He thought I was upset because he thought I thought he should have sex whenever *I* want even if he does not want to. Not true.

He also admitted that earlier on in our relationship, had he not been in the mood, he probably would have done it any way. Says he probably got to the point of feeling he should say what he *really* felt, ie he just did not want to.

...

On the face of it, it *looks* like it could make sense.

However thinking about it, it does not.

Point 1:
He claims that the excessive HJ situation, which started shortly before his rejections, was him trying to inject variety in to the situation. What actually succeeded in happening was he was replacing sex WITH HJs. So he wasn't "in the mood" yet WAS in the mood for HJs. Doesn't make sense.

Point 2:
Why did he all of a sudden decide he could start "being honest" about not being in the mood? Why did he feel he had to go along with it before? This is NOT the H I know AT ALL. I have allways known H to be pretty straightforward. Does not dress things up. He has said way in the past he has not been in the mood. And that was that, it was never nasty or an issue. Essentially a bait and switch type situation... except I believe knowing what I know NOW that his libido NEVER actually was lower than mine like I initially thought when I first started posting about this. I think it is a convenient thought he allowed me to have. The big piece of evidence being that his need for HJs over sex has pretty much been something he wants me involved in rather than going solo.

Point 3:
Feeling pressured. I can get this. Up to a point. What I still cannot get is how he can feel pressured up untill very recently when I have not been initiating for over a year OR having heart to heart talks about this stuff of late?


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

walkingwounded said:


> Help! Am I overthinking this?


From my gut, and though I've read a lot of your thread, my brain is mush and I may not be remembering everything right and/or confusing various threads. But, here goes:



You are not focused on and demanding the right thing.

You know there is a problem.
He knows there is a problem. (right?)


What is the path you envision that by walking down it, you have a chance of resolving the problem?

Have you made the need for walking down that path clear to him? Does he believe there will be uncomfortable consequences if he does not commit to walking that path with you, and if he does not follow through on that commitment?


It just feels like right now, your energy is focused on trying to figure out "why" things changed -- without much help from him. You also seem focused on figuring out whether his thoughts and feelings and motivators at the time were indicative of something "wrong" or "undesirable" about YOU. 

I sympathize with all that -- I do that every day, sometimes hours at a time!!! But, barring any great insight, that's not going to get you anywhere trying to figure the past out on your own. 

I see two opportunities for you. (1) Work on yourself -- in IC, and every way else. (2) Put the energy you are spending on ruminating about the past into defining and preparing the path you think he and you need to walk down to get you to a better place together; by that I mean: Find him an IC, find you and IC, find a MC, find books, and say: "This is the only future we are going to have together, choose it or lose it. It doesn't matter how we got in this mess, what matters is whether we are both determined to get out of it together. I intend to find a happier and easier way of being, where my partner and I are both fulfilled and enhanced by our relationship. If it's not going to be with you, so be it, but here's your chance if you are still interested. I start walking, with or without you, tomorrow morning."

(Lest I sound like a know-it-all, believe me I don't. But, I think/hope I have personally reached a point of no return. I see a strong need to end my marriage, IF my wife doesn't start walking down that path with me. If she doesn't, I plan to walk a different path, away from her. Time will tell if I'm all talk, and no walk.)


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

walkingwounded said:


> *I DO need him to own it and make it up. I get working on me, I do. But I cannot move forward WITH him if he does not make amends for the damage he has done.* It was a drawn out thing and what makes it worse is he continues to evade taking any responsibility for it. He is my husband. He is not supposed to trip me up then repeatedly kick me when I am down then walk off telling me he does not remember doing it or why he would do it and expect me to pretend it never happened.





walkingwounded said:


> My worry, M, is that having forgiven him for his inappropriate, EA behavior, if I let this go, I am setting a precedent that he can be careless with his behavior and I will just tolerate it. That I will make a fuss and he can placate me and wallpaper over the cracks with a few half hearted apologies without ever actually reflecting on what he is doing and why and working to correct that.
> 
> I cannot stand a lifetime of that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Relatively recent snippets of mine. The highlighted is what I am seeking.

Empathy is what I want. I have a desire for him to put himself in my shoes. To understand and realize how he has acted has affected me. So far he has been unwilling or unable to do this.

I made an internal timeframe which I am working to. I have also made it clear to H what it is I am seeking a la the above.

His trouble is he just does not think. He admits this. He speaks or does stuff but doesn't *think* about it untill a lot later.

The second quote above is indicative of why this is so important. He needs to develop some insight. He has a habit of riding on ahead thinking everything is fine because he is happy. He makes decisions based on what he wants without thinking about "us." I have spoken to him about this.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

walkingwounded said:


> Relatively recent snippets of mine. The highlighted is what I am seeking.
> 
> Empathy is what I want. I have a desire for him to put himself in my shoes. To understand and realize how he has acted has affected me. So far he has been unwilling or unable to do this.
> 
> ...



You are farther along than I had remembered. Thanks for updating me (I'm slow sometimes!).

I'm familiar with the desire for empathy. Seems like I have suffered 1000 times more than she could possibly have known (had she known, she'd have to be a real psychopath to have continued the same behavior towards me!). Yet, my hands are tied (it seems at times), because (1) she seems to lack a capacity to look at "truth", and (2) she to easily tries to shift the blame onto me, and (3) sometimes I feel like I'm a big ultra-sensitive whiner. So, I go back to suffering more or less silently. It's a pattern that's got "Warning: May cause depression." written all over it.

I think part of her aversion to my version of the truth, and knowing the depth of my pain, is she cannot handle "owning" any responsibility for it; she'd feel too guilty, if she did, and she'd have to accept SOME responsibility for CHANGING HERSELF in order to fix things.

That's why imposing an ultimatum, and enforcing it, seems like the only way forward for me.

I wish you the best.


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## Jonathan35 (Feb 28, 2013)

Men, generally, aren't like this. My guess is that you are either emasculating him, he has another source of sex or he is gay.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

He is not gay. No other source of sex ( I keep a quiet eye on things.) 

I wouldn't say I enasculate him. What I *would* say is that somewhere along the line we swapped roles. I became the pursuer. I was the one driving the romance, instigating dates, physical affection, everything. On my part it was fuelled by insecurity... I felt if I was not nurturing our relationship, no one would be. And I was right.

He said he felt he didn't have to do anything now we were married. He thought it was a natural progression that came with time together. 

The more I have done that, the more he has resisted. Thus me stepping back and withdrawing a lot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Cre8ify said:


> Men are not good at:
> 
> Acknowledging their feelings.
> 
> ...


Maybe true for the men you know, but not true for myself or most of the men I've known very well.

And, I happen to think the three deficits you list describe my wife very well.

This board is full of men clearly don't have the deficits you describe, or at least are working on fixing them. And where are their wives? Sometimes it sounds like they are evading awareness of their inner lives at all costs.

I applaud everyone here, working on themselves, and their relationships. I just happen to think the deficits you described are equal-opportunity.


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

You are entitiled to your opinion POS but I just have different life experiences. I will open myself to what you offer and see if I can see this in women around me. BTW, sorry about the POS...but it is the name you chose.

WW maybe it is simple as this. He hurt you by taking up an EA that he has not come completely clean about. Understandably, your self esteem has taken a hit. Given the attraction you feel he had for another woman, any sexual rejection from him is magnified by a factor of 10. Unremarkable change in him per se, but dramatic change in how the rejection affects you. 

You may have pursued harder because of the threat of the OW which changed the dynamic and took the tension out of it. Being too available sapped some interest and he can take you for granted. I have thought for awhile that the second he feels you slipping away and finds you just out of his grasp, that is when he will pop his head out of his a**.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Cre8ify said:


> BTW, sorry about the POS...but it is the name you chose.


Yeah, I'm starting to see that it was a bad choice; it's wearing on my self-esteem. I should have read the abbreviations FAQ before creating my account!


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

PieceOfSky said:


> Yeah, I'm starting to see that it was a bad choice; it's wearing on my self-esteem. I should have read the abbreviations FAQ before creating my account!


Make a new name.

I'm on my second one.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Well...

A lot has happened in the last few days.

Over the weekend, I just melted down. After H got up on Saturday I went back to bed and stayed there.

Sunday I got up really late.

Sunday evening we got some alone time and I broke down. Said a lot of things, very heartfelt convo between us. Said how I could not live with him feeling like this, that I saw other guys I knew or had known and wonder if they would love and cherish me like I wanted. It was really sad.

He held me the whole time and listened. Said he was so sorry that he had caused me this pain. That he felt awfull knowing he had caused me to feel like this.

He told me he loved me very much and he would never turn me down again, ever.

The next day he told me he sometimes look at me and sees a broken flower, and knows that he did that to me, that he has taken my spirit. That I am so sweet, and kind, and he has hurt me.

He told me more thing that he likes about me. Sweet stuff I had not really thought about. He likes that I am very feminine and womanly.

We had grown up time Wednesday evening on his call.

Yesterday I decided to embrace his openness and sent him a text whilst he was at work saying what I would like us to do later. He replied positively. I knew I was risking it a bit given his previous history of not wanting two nights in a row and disliking my sexting but he was good with it.

Last night he asked me for a HJ because he "was tired."

I thought about it for a moment and told him I was going to bed. He was cross. As I walked back past the door to go upstairs, I heard him sighing - loudly, for my benefit. I ignored him.

Fifteen minutes later I was in bed. He texted me saying "Sorry baby, I realized I turned you down. I'll come up in a minute if you want me to. Sorry."

And he did.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

So how does it feel to enforce a boundary?
I bet it felt good to stand up for yourself?
Glad to hear this!!!


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

I had to sit and think about it for a min.

It was pretty hard because I am a pleaser, with him.

I remembered I had made it clear what my feelings were about this particular situation. I then thought how I would feel AFTER, if I went ahead with it. The answer made me realize what to do.

I felt like a b!tch because he had just given me a shoulder massage. But then I knew that engaging in something mutual would clearly be good for both of us.

It felt good because I felt like I was doing the right thing for me when I was walking away. When he sent me that message... well, I felt like we were making progress.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Whoot hoot! 

See? no punishments for enforcing a boundary. You gained a bit of respect, actually, from him. He knows you made it clear what your feelings were about it, and he sh!t tested you about it anyways.
You passed! 

So happy to hear things are turning....


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

You are of course right.

It is weird but I can't yet tell what has prompted him to shift a little, again. Like if it is something in particular I have done, like last week when we had the heartfelt talk. Or if it is a cumulative effect.

Had another moment earlier. We had a few moments to ourselves of private time. We did not have long. H said something right before, about getting me "warmed up." Then when we were there, asked if I would give him a HJ. His thinking was time. 

I got where he was coming from in this particular instance. Said I would do it just because we hardly had any time ( with him reciprocating after) but that it was just this time and in no way meant I had changed my mind about how I felt.

When we were laying down, he started kissing me and doing stuff. I got confused, said I thought we were doing what you suggested?

He said he had changed his mind, he wanted us to have sex because he thinks it's good for me I suspect there was an element of he thought it was the better option but who am I to say?

Now despite his awkward phrasing, I see this as another good step. I feel something may have clicked with him. It is interesting to watch.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Another test. You put conditions on it. 
( with him reciprocating after) but that it was just this time and in no way meant I had changed my mind about how I felt.

Awesome! Even in a pinch, with no time, you used your boundaries!

It's probably a combination of everything, but I think your reaction is a big part of it.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

May be so, thinking about it.

It makes me wonder if he is seeing me differently. He is certainly articulating things about me more which is appreciated.

I do not want to be hasty though. It has been a good week but I will wait and see how things progress before getting excited about it being real change.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Regardless of what happens tomorrow or next week, enjoy the moments this week. That is what is important. The rest of life will work itself out, as it's meant to be. 

Let him know you appreciate what he is doing, but don't forget your boundaries. Words of appreciation or a note are expressions of your feelings, being vulnerable without giving more than you would be receiving.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

I am in the moment with the appreciating. I am very happy right now 

Being honest I am worried to express gratitude because I keep thinking once I say it out loud, that he will take that as his cue that he has done enough and can stop for a bit. He has said this before. So I am holding off that but showing with my actions that I am happy with things.

I still keep looking back and I just cannot believe HOW MUCH I was giving in comparison to H. The brutal fact is I do not think he even noticed or even misses a lot of it!


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

I was thinking you might be wondering how to maintain that boundary, and you are right to be cautious about it for awhile.
That's where the questioning comes in, asking if it makes you uncomfotable, etc. 

I still have to walk through it. It is not automatic for me. But I got a lot of things going on too atm.

I believe the truth is he is happier when you show boundaries. More content. Of course he doesn't miss it. True honest vulnerability with boundaries is priceless.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Things still good ( ah the cynic in me... "still" good...)

Just keeping mindfull. Being aware.

I have expressed gratitude. Not gushing but kinda directed thanks at particular acts he does. I feel he likes being appreciated. He likes feeling usefull.

In the bedroom things are good. He is trying some different approaches which is good with me!

I am also feeling appreciated. In a different way to H. I feel like recently he has "noticed" me. He is showing it more.

I have also noticed some things about me. I am finding it easier to not take things personally. I do not really understand where this has come from but I like it. I am more forthright when talking. I find it easier more now to say what I think instead of worrying about offending and dancing around stuff. I know I have said that before but it is so LIBERATING! It really is.

I can't quite see how it all links together and what happened first to effect change elsewhere but I guess it doesn't matter.


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

Self-care and loving yourself first can be LIBERATING.

As to being appreciated, we all value that. I think men and women are way more ALIKE than DIFFERENT. It is probably as simple as the Golden Rule and if we all lived it we could forget HNHN,NMMNG, MMSL and the rest of that gobbledygook.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

My theory on the transformation...
When you stop judging yourself so much, you accept yourself. That leads to accepting others, which manifests in not getting as emotionally invested in things that are "opinions".

When you stop basing your life on opinions and look at the facts, you are able to see the facts. Simply because you are more aware, and able to trust yourself to just be yourself. 

It is amazing, liberating, and the best thing I have ever done with my life ")


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