# what does this mean and what do I do next?



## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Ok, I am going to get this out of my system and get on with my day..

I have been separated for 7 months, H is having an affair, still denying it but living with her for the past 4 months(possibly longer). Found out about the affair almost 4 months ago- suspect it has been going on for at least a year.

My H has been very cold, mean, stopped supporting the children and myself since I confronted him. I realize he is in love with her and does not care about me. We have been married for 11 years.

I finally stopped arguing with him, begging him to come back and trying to guilt trip him about 2 months ago. I have been focusing on me and really looking at what went wrong.

3 weeks ago he asked me to attend a baseball game with the children- the first time he has included me in anything since he left. I went, had fun, kept things light. He commented on how much fun it was. I gave him a card 2 weeks ago on our anniversary- letting him know I realize my role in our marriage falling apart and was sorry( one of his biggest compplaints is that I thought it was all his fault). I did not ask him to come home. He abruptly switched back to being irritable with me and angry about a week and a half ago. 

We are in the middle of a collabrative divorce( I initiated because he was not paying support and our children were having issues being around the OW).He continues to deny the affair to the lawyers as well, but does nothing but defend his choice to remain living with this woman despite hearing from the children's therapist how harmful it has been to them. He is being pushed by his lawyer to have her leave if he wants more time with the kids. Nothing has worked to break up this affair- he has a seperate life with this woman I know nothing about. He has basically shut out all our former friends and any relative of his that does not support what he is doing. I have told our friends, my family, his grandfather. His other relatives beleive I have made all this up and support the divorce. I hear these affairs dont last, but this one just keeps getting stronger. I have really made an effort to control my emotions around him and not react when he treats me badly , but sometimes I do slip ( I am a hot bloodied Italian woman and I have my limits when people are hurtful to me for no reason!)

Today he just picked up the kids for an 8 hour visit. He fixed something in the house I had asked him about 3 weeks ago. He would not look at me , and gave me a small amount of money( first time in 3 months). I offered to fix him lunch but he said "no". I went about my normal routine- fixing lunch for the kids, cleaning up , laughing with the kids while he was working. I thanked him for fixing it, no response. He just left a bit ago. He made no comment on the fact the whole house was recarpeted and had new flooring.

My questions- Is this encouraging or not? I have no chance of working on our marriage while he is so involved with this affair . I feel like I have done what I can to show him the realiites of what life will be like apart ( although he really hasn't suffered any consequences yet finacially). I am trying to be the person he onced loved, but we really spend no time together and he stays so cold with me . I am trying hard to not respond to his hurtful comments and not engage him in any conversation unless it relates to the children . I am beginnning to feel like he will never break it off despite the consequences that are starting to unfold. Should I just accept that this is it and there is nothing that will break up this affair? We have almost 5 months before we can file for divorce. Once again a long post,but this is the only place I can get it out. This has been going on for a long time( at least to me) Any wisdom /advice out there for me?.. I am going to go on with my day now.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

Sorry CMF. Wish I could give you some wisdom. I will say I feel for you. The cold shoulder/meanness is so painful. I am not going to say give up. I find it hard to believe he would be rattled by your card. But he probably was. I bought flowers for my wife and she flipped out. Two days later we walked by a flower stand and she stared at them. She wants them but she doesn't want them. He wants you but he doesn't want you.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

First thing: pay no attention to him 'denying' the affair. What would change if he admitted it? Getting him to admit it is a small, _useless_ victory if he is not willing to return to the marriage. So don't bother even spending any time worrying about it. You already know the truth.



> I have no chance of working on our marriage while he is so involved with this affair


Yes,you do. What you cannot do is make him be a better husband. But you CAN be a better person. That is exactly what you should be doing. Ignore his behavior, concentrate on yours. 

Proceed with your custody and child care case. Learn more about you, practice replacing bad habits with good, and enjoy your kids. They grow up way too fast (voice of experience here.) Do things you enjoy, learn time management or anger management or horticulture or piano - _anything you want to do!_ 

Just enjoy life. And give yourself time! And perhaps most importantly - study what is meant by personal boundaries. Take a lot of careful time to do that!

Don't respond to his hurtful comments, except if they get to where it bothers you - and then respond only by letting him know you don't need to be treated that way - and ask him to leave, hang up, etc. 

It is quite possible that his affair could continue (until your divorce - in which case it ends automatically) - or it could die. No one knows. In any event, just keep on doing the _right thing_. There is never any harm in that - and a lot of good results. It's worth living on principle.


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

Your husband is at the "in love" stage with the other woman. YOU can not change that. That stage usually last 18 months. I really recommend you read "The Five Love Languages" by Gary Chapman. The book really gives you a complete understanding of the "in love" concept.

Speaking from experience, you and your children will be better off if you can put the husband and his mistress out of your mind. Work on yourself and focus on building a new life. Perhaps there is something better out there waiting for you. At least that's what everyone keeps telling me.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

I would love to be able to forget about them, but my children are involved and suffering by their relationship. They are living a lifestyle that my children have never been exposed to. My H does not care and wants his way with visitation regardless. I want to protect these children who never asked for any of this...
That being said, I did some reading on personal boundaries as suggested. I never had an issue with boundaries until he left. Then I turned into someone I never was for a few months. I am pulling myself out of being that pathetic person, but now I feel like I have always set boundaries with him as a way to manipulate him and it used to work. I am trying....
Update on today- he called wanting to bring the kids home 2 hours early, mad that they were bored and angry he was not allowed to bring them to his home ( per a temporary visitation schedule). I told him I had plans but would bring the kids with me. When he dropped them off he was angry. Yelled at me that he wanted more time with them and thought it was so stupid that they couldn't be in his home. I just looked at him and said" You called me to be here early, you could have had them for 2 more hours. " I was calm and said very little. He said good-bye to the kids and stormed off. I don't even think he wants to see them, it's like he just wants to have something to argue with me about.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> I would love to be able to forget about them, but my children are involved and suffering by their relationship. They are living a lifestyle that my children have never been exposed to. My H does not care and wants his way with visitation regardless. I want to protect these children who never asked for any of this...


That is totally understandable - and, unfortunately entirely out of your control. Your husband won't stop being the kids father - ever - regardless of his actions. I can empathize - my ex-wife chose a life style that was entirely the opposite of what we taught our kids over the years. I didn't want that at all - but I had to deal with it. 

I chose to live the life I believe is right. And I know my kids see the difference - they make comparisons, and voice their opinions. I let them see the difference, and trust that I am teaching them to live a life of high moral principles and that they will make that choice when they do leave home.

Your husband may choose a life that is entirely objectionable to you - you cannot control that. Moreover, in the end, the courts don't care about lifestyles. They care about parenting time and money - custody and support. The court will not make a moral judgment that tells either parent that they must live one certain way over another - with the exception of things the government has declared to be immoral (that is, illegal.) As long as you or your spouse is not crossing the government's version of what is right or wrong, you cannot control how he lives, or what his children see. 

It's unfortunate, but your only choice is to control the only thing you can - YOU - and live the way YOU want to live - and let your kids see that. They are smart enough to see the difference.

Regarding boundaries: you hit on a very common thing: MANY people believe that boundaries are rules you place on other people to make them do what you want. This is not what the word means. It implies that this is the 'line in the sand' - beyond this YOU will not step. THEY may step there - but you are not going there with them.


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## Susan2010 (Apr 19, 2010)

Tanelornpete said:


> MANY people believe that boundaries are rules you place on other people to make them do what you want. This is not what the word means. It implies that this is the 'line in the sand' - beyond this YOU will not step. THEY may step there - but you are not going there with them.


Boundaries are also that line in the sand you will not tolerate others crossing. While no one can control the actions of others, you shouldn't allow that line being crossed over on you either. It may be a reactionary situation, of course, in that you can't stop someone from crossing, but you shouldn't stick around for repeat of the disrespect.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Tanelornpete- At this point should we even be doing anything together with the kids. or should it all be seperate visitation? What should I say to him if he asks to include me in his plans with the kids? I am second guessing myself when I interact with him now.


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## Susan2010 (Apr 19, 2010)

You shouldn't be included in his visitation activities with the kids. If one of them has a game or recital or similar, of course you should attend and he should attend to support the child's activity. But you should attend the kids' activities separately, and you should not be included in his visitation activities. To tell you honestly, he doesn't invite you because he wants to be able to spend time with you. The invite is only throwing you a bone of kindness to smooth the blow of his leaving and his affair and to ease any hard feelings about him. In other words, his effort is to ease his own conscience. Besides that, it sends you mixed signals that make you second yourself and make you wonder if he still cares and wants you back. I'm afraid he doesn't. He just wants to make himself feel better for abandoning his family for some coochie. He feels terrible about what he has done but could not help himself and cannot force himself to undo it because he doesn't want to undo it. That is also the reason he lashes out about stupid things. He must find all the ways he can to make you the culprit, the bad guy, to blame you. You should cut the ties as much as possible and leave him to deal with his own guilt. And don't allow him to yell and fuss at you anymore. Let him know in no uncertain terms to shut the hell up or simply don't see him when he picks up and drops off the kids. Any communication can take place over the phone or email.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

I agree with Susan - with the exception that I would not tell him in 'no uncertain terms' to 'shut the hell up' - I'd be very calm and clear and state that I choose to no longer be subject to that kind of treatment, and that when he finds a way to talk to you that does not include (the treatment you do not want) then you will be glad to talk to him - and then 'hang up,' 'walk off,' 'shut the door,' etc - whatever it takes to leave the conversation. 

He hopes you will fight with him, insult him, try to control him, etc - in order to justify his actions.


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## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

1st off I think I have told you before but it breaks my heart you are dealing with all of this (((hugs)))

I have to completely agree with Susan with this.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

I am finally realizing that he really doesn't have feelings for me, I've been fighting it , thinking "How can you be married to someone for so long and then feel nothing at all for them". But all his actions back it up. I am trying not to let my self esteem crumble, but it is difficult.


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## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Don't let this break you if you do he will win and you will lose  Actions do speak loader then words. It is easy to say something but usually our actions show our true self.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

I wish I had realized all this when he first left and hadn't wasted 5 months thinking things could be worked out.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

CMF,
I am giving you one GIANT hug right now. My God, you have been through the ringer.
All his hatred and ugly words directed at you is to demonize you. Just like Susan said, to make you the bad person. That way he can "rationalize" his actions of leaving his family and destroying your relationship. The fact that you had to initiate the divorce is a CLASSIC from the cheaters "handbook", if you will. "She left me" is how they can continue to live with themselves. You wrote that their "relationship" continues to grow stronger. Any relationship that is based on lies, secrets, cheating on spouses and hurting children is NOT a "relationship". Ever. This is fantasy. A world of no responsibility. No bills to pay, no children to shuttle around, no fix it projects around the house. Nope, the "other person" is "perfect". Why? Because they live in a fog. It will be a VERY hard dose of reality once they leave their spouse and realize this. 
You sound heartbroken right now CMF, but you are STRONGER than you ever knew possible. You mentioned that your self esteem is taking a hit. Understand this, YOU did not break your vows, YOU did not walk out on your family and responsibility, YOU did not abandon your committment. HE DID. And for what? The lowest common denominator. They ALWAYS affair down. They cheat with somebody equally as broken as they are. Somebody willing to have an affair with a married man. Somebody willing to accept seconds and the crumbs they offer. She will NEVER be better than you. EVER. 
Stay strong my dear. YOU are worth SO MUCH MORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Thanks Brennan , you actually made me cry a little with that. He left over 7 months ago and lied and covered up the affair until mid-February. He still denies the affair saying he only lives with "his roommate". It helps to know why he is acting like this. I gave up trying to talk with him about anything- he only wants to discuss superficial things with me and argue over anything to do with the kids. I am no doormat ( other than the first few months after he left, which I am now quite ashamed of) and will stay strong, but my patience and self restraint has never been tested more. Everyone keeps telling me that he will try to come back, but I cant imagine that. I have never had someone so irriationally angry at me and take a lie(the affair) to such an extreme- other than the mentally ill.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Yes, he WILL try and come back to you but ask yourself this.....would you want him back? Somebody who has lied, deceived, left you and his children? You don't have to answer that right now because you are in despair and want your life back as you know it. Think down the road a bit though. Would you ever be able to trust him again, look at him with the same eyes you have looked at him with for all these years, feel the same feelings you have about him again? Would you?
As for him? He will realize what he has done and will never be happy with himself until he fixes what is broken with him. A person much wiser than me said this "The grass is never greener on the other side. It still has to be mowed". 
Right now you are lost but know this....you CAN get through this. YOU have dignity, respect, love and worth. HE has none of that.


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## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Brennan that was a very powerful post and I have to say it also helped me.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Thank you, Finally. I am happy that I could be of comfort to you.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

I think the thing that gets me is that prior to him leaving I always felt I was lucky to have such an attentive husband who truly loved me and desired me. He did affair down- although she is younger, she is divorced, bankrupt, overweight, a heavy smoker, and a waitress. My husband has many issues and a horrible childhood. Our backgrounds are very different. He is truly the only man I have ever loved and now I doubt everthing we had together. I'm sure in time it will get easier. Thanks for your posts Brennan, they are insightful.


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## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

cmf yep that is pretty much how I feel. I had put my H so high up on a pedestal and built him so in my mind and to others to such a point I haven't even told anyone of our families because they are going to just be in shock. This whole thing is still shocking me....I guess shock is good because if it all hit at once it probably would kill you


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Ok, I've been doing better the past several days as he stopped speaking to me until today. I have avoided a few phone calls from him( if they were important he would have left a message). I did see him on Wednesday night- he ignored me. Today he shows up at the house right when I got home with the kids, wanting to take my son somewhere- my son said no and my H actually accepted that. He had been calling the house, but we were out. He then says that he doesn'tunderstand why I am keeping him from his kids and with -holding information about them.??? I calmly told him that he never asks me anything about them . He then asks me why I can no longer speak civil to him when we were doing so well a few weeks ago. I bit my tongue and reminded him that he was the one that started speaking to me harshly again and arguing with whatever I said. He denies doing any of this and said I was over dramatizing. I told him I was no longer tolerating his inconsistent moods and lashing out behaviors. I also reminded him that he told me a few days ago he would only speak to me with his lawyer present. Again he blamed me for HIM saying that because I had stopped being civil with him. He then accused me of trying to control him, I responded that he does whatever he wants at all times.He has not once taken responsibility for anything he has done since he left the house. I realize now ( hours later)I fell for it again and should have just told him to leave. At least I didn't yell or raise my voice, this is harder than I thought it would be- it's easier when he ignores me. I'm not sure why I feel I should defend myself, I guess it's just an instinct. It would appear that he wants to live his life doing whatever he feels like at any given moment, not pay any support to the children and I and be able to see them and take them whenever he chooses to, while maintaining the image of a devoted father and long suffering husband. The only thing standing in his way is me. If he had all these things would he be happy? Maybe for a moment . What would be a good response to him when he starts in with me about contolling him and keeping him from his children? Obviously I am not handling it right. Would anything make a difference when he is like this? Just walk away ? You know I just want to punch him out .....GRRRR


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## jessi (Feb 11, 2009)

I think it's time your husband feels like to not have you in his life, he is still getting something from the contact with you. 
I say no contact with him, don't answer his calls, texts, emails.
Only pass on info about the children, nothing else......when he picks them up, leave the house to go somewhere that way you don't need to talk to him about anything, he will think you have moved on.......
He is gone now, make him pay suppport for his kids, make him live the reality of the decisions he has made for himself.....
Let him go and be miserable in his new life with his new cheating girlfriend......
No contact if for your survival..........for your health.....
Be strong for you and the kids.......when 1 door closes another opens........be optimistic about what your future will hold for you.
(((((hugs))))))))


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Well, this didn't take long.......
I got THE CALL a few minutes ago. He told me he wished he could undo what he has done by leaving. He said I was a different person from a year ago, the person I am now is the person he fell in love with and wants to spend the rest of his life with. He said he was sure it was too late at this point due to our families , lawyers. I reminded him that he also LIVED WITH HIS MISTRESS. He did not admit anything , but did say..well, we are separated . He said he wished he could come home and would never have left if he knew things would turn out this way. We discussed a few other things, including how he has been speaking to me and he said he would make more of an effort to not take his anger out on me. We both were at work and the conversation had to end..I told him if he wanted to continue this conversation he would need to call me. I am VERY uncertain about this..I am sure he is having financial issues . I don't trust it..not sure how to handle this . I think this is what I wanted, but how to even try to fix this. He is really screwing with my emotions......Just wait and see if he resumes this conversation?


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Saw him briefly last night and this morning. He was friendlier , did not mention anything from yesterday. Should I just drop it and not mention it again?


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## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

cmf I am sort of in the same place you are and part of me is wondering if the driving force is $$$ and it kills me  I am wondering if the financial difficulties is making them feel like they are 'over a barrel' or is opening their eyes?


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

I think we need some experts on here to weigh in.....


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## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

I agree  I just posted over in my thread I don't know if you have seen it but I am just really confused at this point....


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> Saw him briefly last night and this morning. He was friendlier , did not mention anything from yesterday. Should I just drop it and not mention it again?


It's entirely possible that the lights are starting to come on - the fog is thinning, etc. As you become more healthy, he will see a stronger and more desirable person. So, this could be a very good sign that things might turn around.

On the other hand, it could very well be that he is seeing one of his options closing up - it is very satisfying to a guy's ego to have two or more women desiring him, and wanting him to be with them. He has one he sees as a 'main' (the mistress) - and a 'backup' (the wife). He suddenly sees that the backup is no longer available - and so he finds he must step up the game to keep you on the hook.

Regardless of which path he is one, your solution is the same: if he wants to get back to you, he has to understand that you are NOT one choice out of many - you are the ONLY choice - it is either you or no one. You are not the 'backup' - nor are you plan B, C, or D. etc. In fact, you aren't plan A, with the mistress as plan B. You are his wife, and he has sworn to forsake all others and honor his commitment to you.

Therefore: make it clear to him that he is oh so welcome back: as long as he takes certain steps to show you he is serious:

1) He writes a no-contact letter to the mistress, which you get to read and mail - he does not mail it - YOU DO. 

2) He ends all contact with this other woman.

3) He gives you open access to all his email, phone, and IM programs, all his passwords, and logins. He becomes absolutely transparent with you. This measure shows you that he is willing to do anything moral to work on your marriage.

4) You seek marriage counseling together with a PRO-MARRIAGE counselor. 

That is, if you want him back at all. Stay strong and focused on working on you and your growth.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

He has not mentioned anything since yesterday, I told him to think about it, that is was not an impossible situation to work out. I don't even know if this will go anywhere. Also- I was pretty disappointed in the marriage counselor we had been seeing, she was already focusing on the "learn to be OK alone" and "learn to be civil for the children" phase from the beginning. Not sure how to find a Pro-marriage counselor. I would love for him ( if he ever comes around) to learn about emotional needs, love busters and love kindlers and the No Contact with OW philosophy. Coming from me it doesn't have the same impact.


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## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

I have to ask how to do find a PRO-MARRIAGE counselor I have heard so many stories so similar to yours cmf


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## Susan2010 (Apr 19, 2010)

cmf, this is all up to you. Please read Tanelornpete, post again. Then read the first the paragraph again. Then read it again. You have to stop being his doormat and become more confident. That is what your husband already told you he likes. You have turned yourself and your life completely over to him, but that is too much pressure and too much of a load for anyone to bear. He can't keep himself together. How can he manage you, too???

If you want your husband back, no one can do it for you. You have to do it yourself. Stop thinking someone else should show him the things you need to know. YOU be the one to show him. And not only that, makessure he understands that reading about those things and discussing them with you is a condition of getting back together. He has to know you are willing to take charge. He has to know you are confident in yourself. That's what he was saying when he mentioned you becoming the person he married. No one respects a doormat. They just like wiping their feet on it. He WANTS to be able to respect you. Stop being afraid of him. Stop being afraid of what to say to him. Stop being afraid of what he might do. Tell him what YOU want and what YOU expect from him. Tell him your conditions. At the rate you are going, you are just waiting for his every move. That means you are also waiting for him to come back home. That also means you will be waiting for him to take up with someone else and leave you again. But it doesn't have to be that way. It all depends on you.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

You could try Marriage Builders...


And, if you are Christian, look up any Nouthetic Counselors in your area. 

Otherwise, interview the counselor first - find their views on marriage, divorce, commitment, etc...


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Now playing: Supertramp - Aries
via FoxyTunes


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Things have been very quiet since the phone call on Friday. We seem to be able to talk more freely on the phone. It feels weird when we are together. We are both quiet and have little to say when we are around each other now. It's better than the irritability I had been seeing. He spoke to my father for the first time at my son's ball game this week-end- just making small talk. I saw him everyday this week-end but not much was said by either of us, some mutual friends told me he is acting like his "old self" again and they were pleased to see us getting along. He did tell me he was not sleeping well. I'm waiting to see what happens when we meet with the lawyers on Wednesday. Our son's birthday is this week too. I'm not sure how to get through this tense, uneasiness when we are around each other. Maybe this is normal.


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## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

cmf it sounds like it has been a pretty good uneventful days. I hate that tense and uneasiness feeling I am wondering how long it last


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

He's probably not sure what to do, I'm trying not to push anything right now. He has not wanted to talk about the phone call. I'm going to keep moving forward with my plans.


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## Runawaytrain (Jun 7, 2010)

Your husband sounds like mine. He can be so amazing and then like the flip of a switch, he is cold and unresponsive. It's a defense thing. It probably bothers him immensely to see you laughing and carrying on life without him. You know what, that is the best thing you can do for the both of you. If you still love him, then forget about him. Concentrate on yourself. Find yourself again. Love you. Laugh. Enjoy your children. If he really loves you, he will come back. He will swallow his pride and end the affair. Don't make it easy for him. You are worth so much more. Stop worrying about what things mean. It's time to move forward. He is living with another woman and you are getting a divorce. You could spend the rest of your life looking for signs and seeing things that maybe aren't there. Don't do this. Don't let him take anything more from you. He will never see what he has lost unless he truly has lost it. He still feels like he can have you if he wants you. I know that feeling. I love my husband in a crazy way. He always gets his way. No matter what he does, I always take him back. There is a song called shattered that OAR does. Check it out. Don't turn the car around unless he jumps in front of it. Do what I can't do.


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## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Runawaytrain said it perfectly and that is how I am living my life now.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

You are right. I have to make some big decisions soon and I can't let him effect them. I am familiar with "Shattered", always liked that song.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

The irritability is back. It seems our talk last Friday produced no movement, still in a fog. He was cold and withdrawn at son's graduation today. I feel so disconnected from him- not sure how to parent with someone like this.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> not sure how to parent with someone like this.


You 'parent' regardless of him - they make their own choices, and your kids can tell the difference. You can't make him do anything.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

you are right. I thought he was coming out of it, but it was very short llived. It was nice to see "him" for that brief conversation. The children already are seeing the difference.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

It is a rollercoaster. There are going to be up and downs. Accept the downs for what they are...expected. Ride the next upcar.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

cmf said:


> you are right. I thought he was coming out of it, but it was very short llived. It was nice to see "him" for that brief conversation. ....


You know, when I went through my divorce, I thought for sure my heart had been "disabled" and I'd no longer be able to feel love. All I felt was hurt or sort of numb...and on the occasion happy with the kids. 

Then one day I saw the CUTEST guy at the coffee shop, after I'd been single about a year. As silly as it was, I was a grown woman and I'd go to the coffee shop just for a glimpse of him and had a full-blown crush going. That's when I realized I had no desire for a relationship but it was a reminder that my heart wasn't dead. 

Same here cmf. The guy in your hubby's body right now is not "him" and this was a reminder to you that the hubby you dearly love is not dead. The guy who's carrying on the affair? Oh it looks like him, but you've known your hubby for decades and this guy does not act like him, talk like him--it's not his character!
( I personally call active disloyals the Evil Twin)









That conversation was to encourage you--your hubby is not dead yet. He's in there. Right now the Evil Twin is more in control but your hubby is still there.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

I needed to hear that too. I am really struggling with just giving up on the whole relationship. Any Love I stll have for him is disappearing quickly. Plan A continues for now. Keep the advice / any suggestions coming. I know I'll be ok either way.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Ok, so today we met with the lawyers. BIG reality check for him, as he was told how much he would be court ordered to pay for just child support. Not to mention the back support he owes or marital debt. He has been rolling in money for the past 4 months, not a worry about the kids and I. He says he is going to have to move from his home with his mistress AND he was told that I was selling the house and had been offered a job out of town. He stormed out angry with his lawyer. Just tried to call me. I feel better knowing he is finally having to face reality, although it doesn't help my financial issues just yet. I barely said a word in the meeting and stayed completely calm. I really haved learned to think before I act( or react). Feeling a bit of hope for the kids and I today.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

Good job!!!! You did well!


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## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am happy for you (((hugs))) don't you just love when someone else comes in and shows them what reality is because it seems like those are the only ones that can!

AFfaircare I need to just follow you around and read your post  what you said is exactly how I am feeling I seriously feel like I am dealing with an evil twin right now.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Heehee  








<---finally's and cmf's REAL hubby







<---finally's and cmf's "alter hubby"
:rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol:

cmf, I join with the others in saying I'm glad to hear this news. Every time something happens to help burst the "affair-fantasy" bubble, it's a good thing. Also, disloyals will frequently tell their loyal spouse that the loyal is being mean or demanding or (insert derogatory term here) for expecting them to live up to their responsibilities, but this wasn't even YOU. It was society, his own legislator, the courts saying that he needs to pay and this $XXX amount seemed reasonable to them! Now he may be mad as a wet hen, but at least he is beginning to see that having an affair will not fix issues AND it will cost him a *LOT!!* (and not just financial cost, but that is part of it).


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## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Affaircare 1st off I love Star Trek how did I not think of that!!!

I think you are right when someone else that is NOT part of the situation lays it all out of the table it seems different and very very real.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Well, he finally got me on the phone an hour ago. OF COURSE he is now wanting to talk about getting back together. I questioned his timing and he over reacted. Said he would recommit but that we had many issues. I told him i would not be his last resort and I reminded him that I had been working on things in my own life, but he had not. He still admits no wrong doing, even saying that he never had sex with anyone while living with me so it doesn't count??? He was irritable. He did make a comment about his lawyer telling him that he could easily prevent me from taking the children out of the city if I moved. I told him to do what he had to do. This was not a conversation like the one we had last Friday. Evil twin all the way. Should I even be talking about anything with him right now? I guess the best way to describe how he is acting is bitter.


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## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

cmf I am also in the bitter stage he goes from being really nice(when he wants something) to being extremely bitter and me being the reason everything is falling down around him! I wouldn't just let him waltz back in without showing some change. In my personal experience I can say my H thinking he could just come back when ever made him feel he was in complete control. I can say at this point it is not just in his hands it has to be mutual.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

A poster mentioned that "if he loves you he will come back". I disagree with that. For a person that cheats on their spouse, it isn't about love for that spouse. It is about trying to find love for themself. A person so broken that they cannot communicate their needs to their loved one. They have no outlet or mechanism to express themselves. Why? Because they are so broken. Somebody so in need of external validation that they are willing to accept the lowest common denominator as their "love". Another person who is willing to be a secret and second. They both bond in their dysfunction. They can live in FANTASY land for as long as they want. They must be "okay" because hey look, she/he "loves me for who I am". No they don't. People who cheat with a married man/woman are just as broken as the married man/woman who cheat. 
Of course he is upset after the meeting with lawyers! It is a reality check into what his life is going to be like. And it isn't what you think. Yes, money is one thing but to somebody so broken as he, he NEEDS to feel like the good guy in all of this. After all, YOU made him choose. His new reality is you moving out of town and he can't play "the good guy" anymore. Or as somebody wiser than me said "Disney Dad" anymore. You see, this makes him face reality. It is an UGLY place for a cheater to be in. YOU forced his hand, in his mind. He is having doubts now. He is NOW realizing that he isn't going to be viewed in positive light. It may very well be "the fog" and usually is but again, I caution you. 
If I were you, I would still press on with divorce. NOTHING says that petitions cannot be withdrawn but protect yourself and your children.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

I have no intention to do that. My H also seems to think he can just "decide" to come home. I know he is not ready to do any real work on the marriage, he is just desperate to figure something out.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

CMF,
Who are you responding to?


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

sorry- that was to finallyseewhy


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

How are you doing tonight? Did my untrained advice help at all?


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## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Yep, my H told me he was in 'primal mode' and just trying to survive. he tried to trigger me by saying he had no food and was only eating 1 meal a day....something he KNOWS would upset me. I know that tomorrow is going to be tough and that he is coming to the point where he is at no return. When he is all said and done paying for everything he barely has enough for food/gas. The sad thing is I guess paying child support, day care, and a very very expensive extended hotel he has nothing. He went from a very nice comfy lifestyle of being able to eat out when he wanted to, go to nice restaurants, spend weekends doing stuff, and really didnt have to worry about much.....and now he only has ramen noodles and hot dogs. 

The thing we need to remember cmf is that THEY put themselves in this situation. It was a choice. I hate to say the balls in my court but ultimately I had to take away the power from him. If I didn't then he would continue to dangle it over my head.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

I agree. I am just ignoring my H's statements about how bad off he is . He will have to make an effort and demonstrate some change. I can tell he is still "foggy" and desperate. I have to see him tomorrow for son's birthday.


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## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Lately his thing to say to me is that he is going to have to get a 2nd job and then never see the kids. Then he starts to tear up. He just may have to get a 2nd job but I was not the one that left. He was NOT even willing to try therapy before he left because he thought that type of stuff never works...

cmf just try to focus on your son's birthday and not everything else it will be hard but just try to stay focused.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

It's funny because now my H is acting how I did right after he left. I dont buy it and will not rescue him from the consequences of his own actions. I think that once he gets over the panic he will either truly make an effort or just keep making bad decisions.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

So this is the time things get really messed up. Back to the power struggle. Who has the upper hand? What happened to Plan A? Am I misunderstanding. Now that he wants to let you meet some needs you deny him. You don't have to be the "doormat". But you have to give. Don't you love him? Why question his timing? Isn't this what you wanted? Who cares when it happened, it happened. Maybe check Marriage Builders and see what it costs for an hour of phone consult with Steve Harley. I hear he can work . You have an open window, Go through it. Don't pull down the screen.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

I am feeling like he is only out of options and not sincere at all. I dont want to be used . I have let him know that I am open to it, but he could not keep blaming me for everything if he truly wanted to reconcile. I really just want to give it some time to see if he comes out of his affair "fog" anymore- I saw some glimpses of it last week. He is wanting immediate answers right now and I am not ready to give him any.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

I am not saying he should come home NOW. Have you read "Getting Back Together". But don't throw Love Busters at him. Maybe he will tell you what he needs from you? Or answer one of the Questionnaires from Marriage Builders? Ready to pay a marriage counsellor rather than a lawyer? It is a rollercoaster! You knew this. You are smart and informed. Knowledge is power!


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> I am feeling like he is only out of options and not sincere at all. I dont want to be used . I have let him know that I am open to it, but he could not keep blaming me for everything if he truly wanted to reconcile. I really just want to give it some time to see if he comes out of his affair "fog" anymore- I saw some glimpses of it last week. He is wanting immediate answers right now and I am not ready to give him any.


Right now, you need a standard set of answers/replies prepared so that you don't get caught up in any mind games or 'tit for tat' play. You want open access to phone records, emails, passwords, etc., and he must write a 'no contact' letter to the other woman (that you read and mail) and break off all contact, forever. You need to work on the marriage, etc. Whenever he hints at wanting to be with you, ask him if he is prepared to do all of those things - if so you would be glad to consider his request. If not, end the conversation, change the subject, etc. Simply don't get caught up in it. 

You are doing great!


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

He still lives with her. I dont see how he could go no contact. I really wasn't going to say anything about the transparency until he left that living situation. I figured he would just lie about it. I have this overwhelming need to know exactly what he has been doing sexually - how often- did he like it better- new positions- maybe there were others over the past several months- I don't know,it is driving me crazy and making me angry again.. I had thought I was past all this but now I want answers again, I know he is terrified to tell me anything ( for legal reasons). Right now I'm not saying much. He called me 3 times at work today for basically nothing ( I didn't answer 2 of them). I will see him at dinner tonight. I'm trying to think of a good response if he brings up working on the marriage- When you are no longer involved with OW we can discuss it???? I cant get past feeling that this is all so superficial on his part. Maybe that doesn't really matter right now and I should just see if he disentangles himself.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

I think it is best to be a listener tonight. Hold your tongue and your temper. Stay calm. As AC says no tit for tat. Of course you want to work on the marriage. What does he propose?


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Who?


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> He still lives with her. I dont see how he could go no contact. I really wasn't going to say anything about the transparency until he left that living situation.





> I'm trying to think of a good response if he brings up working on the marriage-


I didn't make those suggestions as though they are something he can do in his current living situation. I gave them as a set of standard requests that you can have available _ANY_ time he contacts you about the marriage: "Are you ready to 'x, y, and z'? No? Ok - goodbye..."

He can go 'no contact' by moving out. Regardless, however, my suggestions were things to say to him in case he wanted to work on the marriage. He does not as long as he lives with her. If he wants to work on the marriage, then he must: provide transparency, no contact, and a willingness to work on the marriage. 

If he is not ready to do those things, then no work can be done together on the marriage.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Update: Just spent the last 3 hours together celebrating my son's birthday. Out to dinner, presents. No talk of anything other than celebrating my boy. It was a pleasant , happy 3 hours- almost like we all use to be when together. We laughed, talked about things we had done over the years. Made plans for the week-end together for a family outing. He was himself tonight- no evil twin. No irritability or anger or blaming. Of course this was just one evening and things could change tomorrow. No text messages or phone calls either while he was here. If it comes up I will tell him no work can be done until he moves and cuts OW out of his life completely. I think that is all I will tell him until it happens( or not).


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## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

thats awesome cmf I am really glad you had a good day!


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

So today..no evil twin again. Called me "babe" during a phone conversation- his term of endearment for me- haven't heard it in well over 8 months. Just sent text- "Had a great time last night. Hope we can do it again." I haven't replied and probably will not. We are doing something with the kids in the morning. He also paid the summer camp fee for next week. As he still is living with this woman nothing has changed.


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## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

cmf stay strong let and don't just 'bite' yet. I am not saying to not be nice or cold but don't settle for any less then you are worth. These little things are easily able to do without commiting (I speak from experience  ) until he moves out from that womens house then he is in limbo.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

It has taken me 6 weeks to start clearing the fog in my head. Affaircare reiterated for the 100th time that exposure is not about getting your spouse back. Now I think I understand that until the affair is over or heading down hill I don't stand a chance of getting my wife back. Hello! She is "in love" with someone else. I have to hope the relationship goes sour. Once they are defogged then real life sets in. In real life people have real life problems.
CMF, I would bet that is where your H is now. You are looking good. OW is looking bad. Start making those love bank deposits now. I bet he is turning away from her. Show him you love him. Be patient. Isn't this what you want?


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

It is. I know he's only doing this because the legal situation is forcing him to face reality, not to mention the fact he is afraid I'm going to leave town with the children. I'm trying to let that go for now but it does bother me that he didn't want to try on his own. He did apologize about blowing up at me earlier this week. That is something. We will be spending most of the day together on Saturday with the kids and he is sleeping here tomorrow night( my son is having a sleep over with some friends for his b-day and wanted his Dad here too). A few weeks ago he wouldn't even set foot in our house. We'll see how it goes.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

This is all okay. He is facing reality. He got the stick and didn't like it. Use the carrot. All of this gives me hope. Right now I bet Notreadytoquit would like to be in your shoes. I know I would. No extinguishers tomorrow. Can you show gratitude tomorrow. That is a tough one...but try. Love bank is open!


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

I know..I plan on continuing what I've been doing. My kids are thrilled to see him like this again, but I do not want them hurt . He seems to be trying. He actually wanted us all to go to a baseball game tonight but the kids were worn out. It has been a long time coming ( almost 8 months) and then it happened so quickly. It really wasn't until I stopped being so emotional / angry and really looked at myself and actually realized what I had done to contribute to all this that things started to change. He made a comment to me about 4 months ago that nothing had changed( when we were supposedly working things out) and he was done. He actually was right, although I hate to admit it . I started reading about marriage and infidelity about 6 weeks ago and found this forum about 3 weeks ago. It was only then that things really did change with me and he did notice almost immediately. Of course, he is still very tied up in his mess of an affair and things may backslide, but the advice here has not been wrong once ( even though I needed to be told 100 times before I listened sometimes). You are already focusing on yourself and learning all you can, you haven't wasted all the months that I did feeling angry and sorry for myself. Thanks for the words of encouragement .


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

iamnottheonlyone said:


> *...Once they are defogged then real life sets in. In real life people have real life problems.
> CMF, I would bet that is where your H is now. You are looking good. OW is looking bad. Start making those love bank deposits now. I bet he is turning away from her. Show him you love him. Be patient. Isn't this what you want?*


:allhail: QTF!! (Quoted for truth) 

YES, iam...you hit the nail on the head and got it dead right! YAY! Good for you! Well written!


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

Just remember that you don't make progress everyday. He will likely go back and forth. Two steps forward, one step back. Be expecting it and ignore it.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

iamnottheonlyone said:


> This is all okay. He is facing reality. He got the stick and didn't like it. Use the carrot. All of this gives me hope. Right now I bet Notreadytoquit would like to be in your shoes. I know I would. No extinguishers tomorrow. Can you show gratitude tomorrow. That is a tough one...but try. Love bank is open!


I can't even get him to stay at home most of the day. He is taking a parenting class today, all day. Maybe he will learn something who knows. I really don't know if there is hope in my case even though I like to stay positive. Right now I feel like I have no more feelings for him at all. Nothing!

And he keeps changing his mind on the parenting plan to basically suit his schedule not looking at mine. So I think the only thing I can do right now is let the lawyer do the work(I know it will cost) and focus on my future with the child. It's just so hard to do that focusing while sitting here in CT. My mom just left today, my MIL is coming tomorrow for a week. We'll see how that visit plays out and if he spends more time at home. My H did not even say Thank You to my mom for coming and helping with the child.

Last night I did not even hear when he got home and this am he left before we got up.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Well, I should of seen this coming.....my husband was asked by my son to spend the night at his birthday sleep-over tonight. He said yes several days ago to this. Around 2 hours ago he tells me he is uncomfortable being in the house and is going home . He says he doesn't want the kids use to him being in the home.I reminded him that this was about a request by his son and he should of said No when asked. He made every excuse to leave and he did leave. He just had to get back to her. This fog has not lifted and now I dont think it will. This hurts me on a level I didn't think was possible. He just wants to be the good guy, my son will be upset in the morning and he could care less. I could have used help with all the kids here but he did not care enough to stay for one night. I dont know if I can continue with Plan A, he doesn't seem to care at all, I feel he will always return to her after getting his family time. He denied leaving because of her but yet he didn't stay . I cant keep doing this, it's been going on too long now. I am very discouraged, I really needed his help and my son just wanted time with his Dad. Time he cant spare. He made his choice- to not end his relationship.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

I'm venting, I just need to calm down. I was warned this would probably happen.


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## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

cmf I am sorry I wish I could offer some 'help' but I am in almost the exact situation you are but my H isn't living with a OW but is in a serious fog. I would of never guessed the things he would of done because of this 'fog' it shocks me. I would of never thought children would be muddled in the fog but from your story and mine too I am am seeing they are. (((hugs)))


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## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

VENT it is OK!!!! I did this today too when my H was cold towards me. I don't know why I expected anything else but I did. It hurts when someone who was an amazing person turns into the evil twin.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

Don't quit. You are an incredible person. You have shown great strength. You have inspired many. Including me. It is up and down. Back and forth. It is obvious to everyone that your spouse does not deserve you. You could lead an army. You have been tested and you are worthy. What a great and wonderful person you have become. Did you ever in your wildest dreams think you could endure this? You ARE a wonderful person. Sleep well tonight as you are deserving.


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## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

iamnottheonlyone said:


> Don't quit. You are an incredible person. You have shown great strength. You have inspired many. Including me. It is up and down. Back and forth. It is obvious to everyone that your spouse does not deserve you. You could lead an army. You have been tested and you are worthy. What a great and wonderful person you have become. Did you ever in your wildest dreams think you could endure this? You ARE a wonderful person. Sleep well tonight as you are deserving.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:
:allhail:


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

I cant even remember the last time he was an amazing person. I have to stop doing things with him and the kids- he gets the family time and then the double life /affair all in the same day and that seems to be what he wants now. He honestly can not be in this house - he lived here with us for 9 years and can not bear to spend more than an hour here. He had no intention of staying here tonight, he knew he was leaving after the kids went to bed. I feel very stupid.


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## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

cmf this is something I am really trying to figure out for myself and I keep hitting a brickwall with it. Do I let him continue to have his family and pretty much walk away? H has been and still is a great dad I have not limited his time with the kids at all and I don't really want to. Right now that is how he is holding over paying so much in child support over my head because he wants me to lower it so he can still afford to do MORE stuff with the kids. He is very use to being able to do TONS of stuff with them and now he pretty much cant. It is horrible how $$ can affect people. 

cmf if I was you I would limit his time in the house if any. It seems to be toxic when he is there and he is not trying to even make an attempt to fix it. I can't really give advice lol but maybe someone else can help.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

I just found out that H possibly took the parenting class together with the OW. And he was out late on Friday night.

I just don't really know what to do anymore? Any ideas?

After his class yesterday he tried to reach me like crazy while I was out with the child. I came home and he had already gone to the grocery store and got pizza for us. I did not say much last night just put the baby to sleep and went to read His Needs, Her Needs. He saw me reading it.Do you think this is the point of no return?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

It ain't over 'til its over. If you quit, what changes? If you don't quit you work on you. He hangs with the loser until they split. What is she thinking when he is over your place? You can't make him love you. But you can be more loveable. When the problems start with OW you will have your chance. Read chapter 1 a couple of times. The affair must end BEFORE you can be whole again. However, when things are going bad, you can make deposits in the Love Bank. You become the OW in his mind. Drag your feet!!


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

Ok can I ask a question:
Let's say things finally don't work out and we do get divorced. Can any of the Marriage Builders concepts be applied afterwards in my interactions with my H that may give us the chance of reconcilliation? At this point normally we don't know how long will this last with this OW but at the same time I don't want to be wasting my time on him and maybe miss someone good for me down the road. I know that remarriage can always be a possibility.

I hope my question makes sense


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Ok..I've had some time to process last night. My expectations were a bit high. He let me and the kids down-again- for the affair. I should have NEVER agreed to letting him stay over here until he was done with this crap. My son really wanted his Dad here for his sleep-over and he did agree, but backed out at the last minute. I sensed something was going on with his attitude earlier in the day but chose to ignore it thinking the evening would be about the kids and he would be thinking the same thing. When he decided to leave I asked him to stay to help me out with all the kids. He wouldn't do it and it REALLY pissed me off. I might not have agreed to having all these kids here if I had known he would bail. I had no intention what so ever to discuss our relationship, try to seduce him or anything! I just wanted some help and this was something his son wanted. He made every excuse under the sun as to why he had to leave- his dogs( I offered to let them stay)- he was "uncomfortable" being in the house- it was "too soon and things were going well"- he wanted to sleep with me and not with his son( I'm not even going to touch that one)-and finally he did not want to give the kids "false hope" that he would ever sleep there again. I know, I know, all dizzy talk. But MAN did it make me mad. I said things that were love busters( I'm not proud but it happened)- I reminded him that once again he broke his word and disappointed his children and left me to do everything, I accused him of not being able to be apart from his ***** for one night, I told him that tonight was not about him, but something his son wanted for his birthday. He replied that our son would be fine with it and he was going to his home. Now, I know I fell for it and even while saying all that I knew it. NOTHING CAN PROGRESS UNTIL THE AFFAIR ENDS. PERIOD. I have been told this by all of you and I have no idea why I thought last evening would be a good idea. I thought spending time with the kids would show him what he was giving up, but I guess it was boring to him or he just wanted to be with her. I probably did a lot of damage during our last conversation, and I had intended for our conversation with each other to be different. All in all , I think I may have screwed up a bit, but I at least see how serious he is about reconciling( not at all). We meet with the lawyers again this week- I am getting close to ending the collabrative divorce and just going to court to get financial and visitation issues resolved quicker. My "carrot" aint looking too good right now 
nottheonlyone- what book are you talking about?


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## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

cmf I think you should be proud of yourself because if anything you are starting to really see through all of the BS and realize what you have to do and where things are at. It sucks to be over a barrel when the other person is having an affair and until they stop it feels like you there is nothing you can do. I don't think you were wrong to have high hopes. I think we have all been there....I can say I have  

Keep strong (((hugs)))


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

He just called and blamed me for last night. Stated- I thought we could work things out but I was wrong . My son told him how upset he was and he just made more excuses. Sickening. Tanelornpete told me I cant make him a good father or husband and it is so true.I told him his affair prevents anything from working out and I hung up on him. He has called back 3 times, but I am done.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

I have to say that you need to back down and cool off. You let yourself be baited. You have a long way to go but you have been making progress. You have a mantra... Rollercoaster, rollercoaster, rollercoaster. Stay calm and sty focused. You are frustrated. Don't backpedal. He can backpedal but you can't. There was great potential last night an today, but you let his fog get to you. Don't play with the evil twin.
Are you asking about the book on separation?


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

For notready



> Let's say things finally don't work out and we do get divorced. Can any of the Marriage Builders concepts be applied afterwards in my interactions with my H that may give us the chance of reconcilliation? At this point normally we don't know how long will this last with this OW but at the same time I don't want to be wasting my time on him and maybe miss someone good for me down the road. I know that remarriage can always be a possibility.


ALL of the marriagebuilder's concepts may be applied. In fact, they should be a life long habit regardless of which spouse you marry. Also, you'd only be wasting your time if the object of your attention (lack of love busters, plenty of emotional needs supply) is not interested in you. These are not tools to make someone do what you want. They are habits that you build up as a response to getting to know a person.

For cmf - - - 

Expectations are the single biggest source of emotional stress I can think of. And the ironic thing is that this stress is self-induced. We _expect_ someone to do something - and when they do not, our emotions run amok, we cry, get angry, etc., _ all because that person did not do what we had assigned them to do in our minds. _

Here's a solution for you: _expect_ your husband to do whatever is the most damaging to your relationship: leave you stuck with lots of kids, neglect to pay support, etc... _expect that!!!!_ If he does what you expected, you are already prepared, and are much less likely to go through any emotional turmoil.

And when he does the opposite, it means that he has done something positive - and the emotional result should be quite pleasant. What I am saying is that if you expect him to do bad - and he does good, you will feel much better. 

Quit expecting him to be pro-marriage until the affair ends!


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Tanelornpete- I will try and wrap my head around that concept.
Iamnottheonlyone- I think you are gonna have to walk me through the great potential from last night and this morning because I am truly at a loss.
My lack of patience with this process , not to mention how I am handling stress while going through this is only hurting me. People who can do this and make it through and save their marriages have got to be saints!


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## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Tanlornpete that is a concept that I just wish like cmf I could wrap my head around. I guess I just need to prepare for the worst and celebrate the small things. It just is so hard because he use to be such a amazing man  

I agree with the saint part cmf I have the out most respect for them!


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

Remember the other day when I prepared for rejection. I asked my wife to go to the ball game fully expecting her to say no. When she said maybe it raised my hopes. But I maintained my composure because I was prepared. Devestated but prepared. CMF, be prepared. Don't break down. I really believe you are making progress as I sense the OW is in trouble. Don't jump the gun with high expectations. Nice and easy. It has been 9 months for you. You are on target. Steady aim.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

I am just finding it harder and harder to be positive around him. Disappointing my children really sets me off, seeing them upset just sends me into orbit. I do have a confession to make- and I am sure this will come as no surprise to others on here. I has contacted by an old college friend of mine about 2 months after my separation - we have talked about once every three to four weeks since. Usually for 2-3 hours at a time. He just called me out of the blue tonight. We talked for 2 hours.He has always had feelings for me, he was one of my best friends before I married. We have not seen each other and he is not pushing anything, he is aware of my situation and knows the risks of getting involved with someone coming out of a long term relationship. I know I am very vulnerable right now- he is meeting my emotional needs and my husband is meeting no needs for me and really doesn't care. I feel so much better after talking to him and smile when I see it's him calling me. I know that this is probably how it started for my husband too. I have rejected this man before, I don't want to lead him on, I have only called him once since my separation. I know this is dangerous to my marriage- but at this point it just gives me hope that I can move on . His timing tonight was incredible. I have an opportunity to see him in a few weeks. It is very tempting .


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

Has it been easier for you to deal with your husband when in the back of your mind you feel that you are desirable (by someone other than your husband)? You are finding new confidence? Positive feedback from others will improve you attitude and demeanor. But you see the risks. You have been learning new skills and becoming a better person. 
I have been flirting. I have been practicing maintaining eye contact with the opposite sex (that lingering look). I have had trouble doing that with my wife for years. I am doing that now with her. I linger and listen. I ask questions. I listen. 
The bottom line is I think that having that friend will be helpful to make you more relaxed with your husband as you are not feeling you are all alone any more.
I am going to suggest that you stay disciplined. Are you going to get spoiled by your success? You know what your goal is. You understand how this usually works. It took nine months for him to start making the turn and the change. You have had 9 months to improve your life and your person. And you have. NO backsliding. Just what AC, Turn, and Tan have been saying (harping on) is happening. Positive. Don't YOU make your WS uncomfortable. Let OW do that. Read the first chapter of His Needs, Her Needs again and remind yourself of the nature of affairs. Don't get in the way of the affair failing.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

I guess it is nice to know there are options and when one faces so much rejection and is treated by someone they love as if they dont matter it feels good to be treated well. My H seems to be right back to his same ways- I'm afraid He just uses what happened Saturday night to justify the affair even more. He only associates negative thoughts with being in our home despite my efforts. And yes I know those efforts went out the window with what I said to him. I feel like I am back to square one with all this . I should have just let him leave when he wanted to without saying anything. It will be 8 months next week since he left and I feel that I am kidding myself about this affair ending. Is it failing? They still live together and he has not been honest about changing that situation. He continues to choose OW over the kids and I. He has had his family time with us recently and then gets to go home to fantasy. He is getting all his needs met, i thought hearing about support had burst his affair bubble but he has convinced himself he can continue on. I guess it's time for Plan B. I have made up my mind to not continue doing things as a family with him, I know the kids loved it but it's not healthy for me and it enables him to continue his affair. I fear I no longer have enough love for him to go through this process.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

He made a commitment to her when he left you. Things are not going well there. But he committed. So he will go home. When is their lease up? He is coming out of the fantasy. All is not rosey over there. For you, how much difference is A from B. Mostly in your mind and your attitude.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

He commited to me too. They have a month to month lease. He can leave at any time, she is not even on the lease and could easily leave. Plan B to me is no contact with him period. I have been too accomadating to him by going on outings with him and our kids. I thought this was how he would see the changes I had made and be the person he once loved. He chose her over his own son and had no problem breaking his word to him. I am really just not seeing it- it just shows how bonded he is to her.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> I has contacted by an old college friend of mine about 2 months after my separation - we have talked about once every three to four weeks since. Usually for 2-3 hours at a time. He just called me out of the blue tonight. We talked for 2 hours.He has always had feelings for me, he was one of my best friends before I married. We have not seen each other and he is not pushing anything, he is aware of my situation and knows the risks of getting involved with someone coming out of a long term relationship. I know I am very vulnerable right now- he is meeting my emotional needs and my husband is meeting no needs for me and really doesn't care. I feel so much better after talking to him and smile when I see it's him calling me. I know that this is probably how it started for my husband too. I have rejected this man before, I don't want to lead him on, I have only called him once since my separation. I know this is dangerous to my marriage- but at this point it just gives me hope that I can move on . His timing tonight was incredible. I have an opportunity to see him in a few weeks. It is very tempting .


This is exactly why you are where you are right now. Regardless of how it makes you feel, the fact is that at this point _you_ are supposed to be the faithful spouse, dealing with an unfaithful one. Two unfaithful spouses do not make a healthy marriage, nor is this the moral way to correct things. 

1) The end does not justify the means. It may well be that this gives you confidence, or helps you feel wanted - but you are getting these positives by carrying on a relationship with a person of the opposite sex who is NOT your spouse.

2) Until your marriage ends, you are still under the vows you gave to your spouse. Ignoring those vows is pretty much the definition of infidelity. 

3) If the affair ends, you will have created a situation which will cause more pain, resentment, anger, disappointment and frustration. All things that could be avoided if you took the time you have right now to do the work you are supposed to be doing: working on YOU. 

And this is an important point to remember: if you have to turn to someone else for validation, if you have to 'test the waters' to see how valuable you are, then you are offering an incomplete person to your spouse (present or future.) Your 'person' is dependent upon someone else to be complete. 

That's what you should be working on right now: being complete in yourself!

4) Watch for justifications: 'We are just friends!' 'I am only doing it to get confidence,' etc: _all of those are standard justifications for having an affair._ 

My strong advice: remain separate from anything that even HINTS at an affair. You will have plenty of time to enjoy all of the benefits once the current storm has passed. Be adult about the situation and remember that you sometimes just can't have everything you want, when you want it (which is NOW, temper tantrum following...). One mark of maturity is to be able to put off gratification until the right time.

In other news: Plan B is most certainly the very minimal amount of contact between you and your spouse. At best, any contact at all should be between a mediator. If not that, then via a notebook that is passed from spouse to spouse in one of the kids' backpacks. It involves NO going out together, NO visiting one another, etc. 

As for doing things with him as a family enabling his affair - quite possible. If the consequences of the affair are not negative enough to cause him to rethink, then it is enabling. If you are thinking about doing a Plan B, please prepare VERY well beforehand. We can help you set it up - learn as much as you can about it before you start. 

And IAMTOO - a plan B is much more than attitude: it is action.


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## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

cmf I understand wanting to 'feel good' I really do but what Tanelornpete said is right this is not the time. I will even tell you that after H left he called me and was being extremely ****y and just plain mean  Well the next day I was actually contacted from an exbf on facebook and part of me wanted to just have someone make me feel good, pretty, and special but I knew this was not the time. 

You are going through a lot and are doing great don't take a step backwards like your H keep plugging forward!!!


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Tanelornpete- How does one know to move to plan B? I really thought things were progressing , but it would appear I was wrong. He is just too wrapped up in his affair. I enjoyed all the time we have spent together lately but it has only allowed him to have it both ways. I feel like my time has run out with this- he always goes back to her over everything. He panics when he has a glimpse of what is going to happen but then it's like he convinces himself he will get what he wants and be fine. I honestly cant beleive I have put forth so much effort into a relationship with someone who truly could care less. I really don't know where to go at this point? Just reading my posts must make others think I am crazy for thinking this will work out and wonder why I even bother.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

CMF....and btw I think that stands for Courageous Marvelous Female....I wanted to let you know that I offer you a giant hug, again. I have followed your story, commented a few times and I really really feel for you.
You bother because you care. Because you love. Because you are human. 
Stay strong my dear.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Well, everything has taken a step back for sure. He called the kids tonight, no longer asks to speak to me. Will no longer pick them up in the house, will meet them in his car again in the driveway. Same old stuff. Thinking of doing some damage control on my end- normally I would just refuse to speak to him but that would accomplish nothing as he doesn't want to talk to me either. My instints are to punish him for not keeping his word- I know not very productive. Thinking of trying something new to see if changing how I resond to disappointment improves our communication. Have to think about it..then again nothing may matter as long as the affair continues..


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

cmf~

I hope you understand that the time I spend with you and the work I do here on this site is not out of some obligation to be here. Technically I could just stop posting and go away and I am under no requirement either to read or to reply every again--shoot I'm not even an associate with the parent group, Family & Marriage Counseling, because I don't have a state license and instead chose to train as a coach and nouthetic counselor! My point here is that I take the time to write to people out of love and care for the people and families and marriages that are in trouble.

After reading about your weekend and your "friend" I have to tell ya--I was so upset (like...emotionally stirred up) that it took me most of the day just to settle down enough to put into coherent thought what I feel and what I want to say to you. There are SO MANY things going on, all at the same time, and they intertwine and criss-cross and are tangled together. So, after being grousy and unsettled all day I'm going to take a stab at this, and this one time I'm writing to you person to person--woman to woman...and not as a counselor or coach. 

In summary this weekend was pretty much an implosion and a demonstration of all that can happen in PLAN A--CARROT & STICK if you take your focus off of YOU and what you should be doing ...and put your focus on the disloyal. 

Here's what happened on Saturday night: 



> Well, I should of seen this coming.....my husband was asked by my son to spend the night at his birthday sleep-over tonight. He said yes several days ago to this. Around 2 hours ago he tells me he is uncomfortable being in the house and is going home . He says he doesn't want the kids use to him being in the home.I reminded him that this was about a request by his son and he should of said No when asked. He made every excuse to leave and he did leave. He just had to get back to her. This fog has not lifted and now I dont think it will. This hurts me on a level I didn't think was possible. He just wants to be the good guy, my son will be upset in the morning and he could care less. I could have used help with all the kids here but he did not care enough to stay for one night. I dont know if I can continue with Plan A, he doesn't seem to care at all, I feel he will always return to her after getting his family time. He denied leaving because of her but yet he didn't stay . I cant keep doing this, it's been going on too long now. I am very discouraged, I really needed his help and my son just wanted time with his Dad. Time he cant spare. He made his choice- to not end his relationship.


This went from not so great, to bad, to worse, to horrible, to a *GIGANTIC FLUSHING SOUND* in just one evening. Let's review:

First, your son asked his dad to spend the night at your house for his birthday sleep-over. So you had the expectation that your fogged-in, disloyal, evil twin would "think of the children" ahead of himself and maybe help you. Right there--that is "not so great" because it is illogical to expect your fogged-in, disloyal, evil twin to think of ANYTHING ahead of their affair-drug. Will a drug addict steal from his blind great-grandmother to get his heroine? Then why did you expect this addict to be any different? See, cmf? This is where it began to go wrong; however, it's not the end of the world and could have been adjusted. 

Second, your disloyal says to you he wants to return to his affair-nest. This hurt YOU because you had expectations, but you were the one who put the "should" on him...and he didn't know that he was wearing that burden. So he actually said what he wanted to do, and a respectful reply would have been something like, "I personally strongly disagree with hurting your son on his birthday, but if that's what you choose to do, please go talk to him." The reason it's respectful is that you state what YOU believe and why...and you also allow him to choose what he's going to do and allow him to be the one to deal with the fallout of his choice. So this part is bad, but again could have been brought right back on track by stating it's not okay with you but also recognizing he is an adult and able to make choices that you disagree with...and HE is the one who has to deal with the results of those hurtful choices, not you! Then let him deal with it, let him wake up your son, tell him goodbye, see the tears or whatever--you keep your nose out of it. Don't rescue him but also don't punish right? So the fogged-in, disloyal, evil twin thought of himself (nothing new there)--let him deal with the natural consequences and your job is to keep cmf out of it! 

Third it went to worse when you didn't keep your nose out of it but rather vented here and plastered him with a bunch of Love Extinguishers, like:
*"He just had to get back to her..."* _"He just wants to be the good guy, my son will be upset in the morning and he could care less..."_ *"he doesn't seem to care at all, I feel he will always return to her after getting his family time... " *_"...I really needed his help and my son just wanted time with his Dad. Time he cant spare."_ *"I cant even remember the last time he was an amazing person."* _"... he gets the family time and then the double life /affair all in the same day and that seems to be what he wants now." _ *"He had no intention of staying here tonight, he knew he was leaving after the kids went to bed." * 

Please take a moment and review those statements--as objectively as you can. Maybe change the "he" to "she" and think of me not him--or think if they were said about you. Do you notice how each one is you assigning a thought or feeling or motive to him? And that we know of, he has not indicated that he thought ANY of those things. So you are supposed to be in Plan A. PLAN A--CARROT & STICK would be showing him that you are working on the issues you had that contributed to the marital troubles, being the woman you have the potential to be, ending all Love Extinguishers, and if he makes a choice to continue the affair don't enable him but rather let him experience what the affair could cost. How EXACTLY did those statements fit into PLAN A--CARROT & STICK? They didn't, did they? In fact, they were the exact opposite of Plan A and pretty much did massive harm to any Plan A progress you may have made! Why? Because you had an expectation of him that was not a mutual agreement but rather you wanting him to do what you wanted, you didn't communicate the expectation ahead of time, he communicated what he wanted, when it didn't "jive" with your expectation, Love Kindlers went out the window and Love Extinguishers flowed. Even if you didn't say a single one to him (and correct me if I'm wrong...I think you said that you did say them to him), just from the venting here I see a LOT of disrespectful judgments, a LOT of angry explosions, a LOT of scorekeeping and controlling, attack dog and now passive-warmongering! 

cmf, I don't point these out to you to judge you--I hope you'll bear with me!--but rather as a way to sort of indicate where it started to go off track, where it was somewhat off track, and now here...where it REALLY started going off track! If this is how you respond to situations, then I can see fairly clearly some areas that you need to work on in your Plan A--Carrot & Stick before it will be effective. Namely, I would suggest that you work on ending disrespectful judgements and start to learn how to state what is or is not okay with you, but give the other person freedom to be different than you and still be valid! I would suggest working on angry explosions--possibly find some self-help books about anger and start actually practicing some of those techniques. I would recommend practicing Mutual United Understandings, and that is that when there is a decision that both parties keep negotiating until they find something they can both agree to enthusiastically--otherwise it's one person trying to control the other. When I say to you "work on yourself in your PLAN A--CARROT & STICK" this is what I mean. Look at the things you do (not them...YOU) to make the marriage painful for them and work on becoming a better woman and marriage partner! That doesn't mean you should become a doormat, but it would be good for you, as a human, to learn how to handle your expectations better. Capice? 

Then it became HORRIBLE!! Take a look: 



> I has contacted by an old college friend of mine about 2 months after my separation - we have talked about once every three to four weeks since. Usually for 2-3 hours at a time. He just called me out of the blue tonight. We talked for 2 hours. *He has always had feelings for me, he was one of my best friends* before I married. We have not seen each other and *he is not pushing anything, he is aware of my situation and knows the risks of getting involved with someone* coming out of a long term relationship. I know I am very vulnerable right now- *he is meeting my emotional needs* and my husband is meeting no needs for me and really doesn't care. *I feel so much better after talking to him and smile when I see it's him calling me*. I know that this is probably how it started for my husband too. I have rejected this man before, I don't want to lead him on, I have only called him once since my separation. I know this is dangerous to my marriage- but at this point it just gives me hope that I can move on . His timing tonight was incredible. I have an opportunity to see him in a few weeks. It is very tempting.
> 
> I struggle with this now, it would be soo *easy for me to just put effort into a new relationship because I would see results and feel I mattered.* It would take my focus off him. I do know that once I start with someone else, there will be no looking back. I have a lot of history with this OM and *he is everything my husband is not right now. There has always been an attraction,* but he lacked the passion my husband had for me and was not as open about his feelings. Maybe that is what I need , who knows. I am at a crossroads with this.


So let me guess, cmf: 
_You two are "just friends." Now that you think about it, you haven't been happy with your husband for a long time. When we tell you this is dangerous, we are exaggerating or making a mountain out of a molehill. You think, "Well what about me? Don't I deserve some happiness?" The OM has nothing to do with how you feel about your husband now. You are confused and can't decide what to do. You need some space to figure out if you should follow your heart. He (OM) is everything you've ever wanted!_ 
... Do any of these statements sound familiar? Like...HAUNTINGLY familiar? 

Dear friend, do not feel embarrassed or bad or defensive that you slipped a little. Shoot, look at me--I know all about affairs and marital troubles and even *I* slipped! It's easy! And the funny thing is, I bet almost anyone could slip in the right situations and almost every loyal spouse thinks, "No way--there is NO WAY I would every have an affair!" Dear cmf, you are a human, and a woman, and you WANT to be loved and valued and cared for! Doesn't take a genius to see that. No I think this was moreso as a lesson to you to hopefully soften your heart just a little to see how easily your own hubby slipped into it and how it doesn't feel or seem dangerous at all ... and yet it is. Now you can see for yourself that it wasn't an evil, lacivious plot for pain and torture, but something that "just happened" and then felt good enough that he didn't want to stop that good feeling. Do you want to stop talking to your "friend" now? No of course not! Even if it's just a little, with him you feel like you mean something.

But cmf I'm going to ask YOU to do exactly what you've asked your hubby to do. I'm going to ask you DIRECTLY to send a no contact letter to your "friend" and tell him that you can never, ever contact him again because you need to either learn to turn to yourself for love or to dedicate ALL of your affection and loyalty ONLY TO YOUR HUSBAND. See the idea is that either you feel confident and valuable and loveable because you've learned to love YOURSELF...or if you are in a committed relationship the only other person you turn to in order to have needs met is your spouse. (That's not to say you don't have relatives who love you or have real friends...but that rather when it comes to "getting needs met" you either fill them from our own self-worth or turn to your spouse.) 

Next, I'm going to ask you to use this experience as a little wake up call to understanding and forgiving your husband. Are you going to miss your gentleman friend? YES. Will you it hurt to lose that contact with him? YES. Do you want to do it? No not really. Is it the best thing for your marriage? YES. So if you do what you know is right, will it be easy or painless? NO. Now imagine your husband..how he just started to slip a little but then didn't want to really give it up, sort of fought giving it up because it feels good, and now you're asking him to end his friendship for you. I'm not saying this is good or bad or whatever--just that this little lesson may help you to have some clue what he went through, what he's going through, what you are asking of him and how hard it would be. When you give up your friend, you may hurt for a few days and really miss him and think of him...want to just pick up the phone and call and get that little feeling of being happy and loved again so you feel better...right? Yeah that's how he will feel x 10! Can you do it while it's still relatively small? Can you explain to him that you sort of understand what happened and how? 

Finally--*now it is a GIGANTIC FLUSHING SOUND*: 



> Well, everything has taken a step back for sure. He called the kids tonight, no longer asks to speak to me. Will no longer pick them up in the house, will meet them in his car again in the driveway. Same old stuff. Thinking of doing some damage control on my end- normally I would just refuse to speak to him but that would accomplish nothing as he doesn't want to talk to me either. My instints are to punish him for not keeping his word- I know not very productive. Thinking of trying something new to see if changing how I resond to disappointment improves our communication. Have to think about it..then again nothing may matter as long as the affair continues.


I'll be honest with you. Do you really want to get this back on track? You need to start with YOU then and not worry about him at all. I mean it--not one wit! Focus on sending No Contact to your OM and then delete your email, your facebook, block him on email and cell etc. Focus on working on the Love Extinguishers mentioned above. Speak to your husband and admit the areas where you went wrong this weekend (heck that alone will take a lot of wind out of his sails). I'm not blaming you here--he clearly did some pretty heartless things--but the way things went chances are good that right now he's thinking something like this: "...and THAT RIGHT THERE is why I'm leaving her, love the OW, and will never, ever go back!!" Now he has the "excuse" he needed to fuel his affair. 

So you do the right thing. Always--do what you know is right. In this instance you lost it, and that's okay you are an imperfect human being as we all are. Take responsibility for the areas where you messed up and set those areas right...and do it tonight, right now. Apologize to him and use some detail, and then tell him what you're doing to work on yourself and what your plan is to never do that again! Then ask for forgiveness--because even though he did do things that were hurtful, that does not justify your actions (two wrongs don't make a right...two lefts do).


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## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

cmf I am sorry it was such a step back I also took a big one too tonight  I think I am going to be going very little/no contact from now often. I feel like such a smuck right now.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Affaircare- I do appreciate the time and effort you put into this. I went to sleep last night before you posted. I will try and talk to H today. I had not even thought of OM until he called Sunday night. I need to not encourage him and stop it before it starts. I knew things went horribly wrong Saturday night and I just lost it. I wanted things to progress and I saw him leaving as a sign it was not happening. I was disappointed more than my son . Clearly I still have to work on me.

I e-mailed an apology to him. It was hard for me to write it , I dont think I could have said it.I used your W-T-F-S method. I really have no concept of unconditional love- except with my kids. Explained to OM needed to stop talking , he understands.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

I just got a reply from my apology, I am a bit shocked. I'll let those following all this see what they think:


I wish I had been in a position to explain my feelings about that night.The 
reason I left is that I was having a great time and am ashamed of my poor 
judgment.When you told me you knew what changes you needed to make I should have 
believed you. 
I realize now that I want us to be a family and am willing to do whatever it 
takes to do that,yet I am afraid it is too late.I do not want you or the kids to 
have this sort of life. 
I see you making changes and becoming the person I fell in love with.I would 
really like to speak to you in person if you will allow me to come by the house 
this evening. 


Speechless...but cautious.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

(I'll write more in a bit--finishing NiceGuy's reply first  )


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## rena (Jun 15, 2010)

step 1> leave the kids at their granparents house for the day 

step 2> invite him over for dinner, cook his favourite dish

step 3> look your best...1..fix your hair
2..look beautyfil
3..wear your best outfit

step 4>make sure the house is clean,worm, and welcoming.

step 5> listen to him, dont talk until u really have to

step 6> make him feel like your his friend and all u want is his comfort and happiness 

step 7> always keep your voice low and make your body movments calm. (show him your vulnerable) 

step 8> invite him often and always be there for him

step 9> never question him or argue 

step 10> be patient and kind 


if this fails then at least u tried


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

CMF,

Yeah! See your friends at TAM have pretty good gut feelings. NOW listen to the people who have given you good advice. AF and the others sure will step up. Nothing over the top. Is she out of his apartment? Deep breathes and behave yourself. I am not the expert, just a broken heart learning to heal. You have inspired me since I got on line. I am 6 months behind you. Its textbook. So let the experts weigh in. Be patient. I am excited for you...so you stay calm.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

CMF - Well done. This is some very good news. Your task (should you choose to accept it) is to stay the course. 

Your message is still the same: You love your husband, you are his best friend, and you want your marriage to work out with him. You have some simple requests that will help this: he must end all contact with the Other Woman, must become absolutely transparent with you, and must commit to working on the marriage. 

Don't change the conditions, ever. These are the things you need for your marriage to work, and to the extent that he is willing to do them - to that extent he is on board with you.

Stay on course. And do all things in love - no anger, no pleading. No Love Extinguishers, no Love Busters.

And remember that you cannot control him. You can only control you. Be smart, and I'd advise you to be skeptical, but in a loving way. Admit to him that because of the ways things have been you have some serious doubts about his intentions - but you are willing to wait and see what happens....


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Ok, so I have spoken to him. The other woman has moved out. He is still admitting nothing- saying that he is afraid of legal response if something goes wrong with us getting back together. He wants to just move forward and not disclose names or details- I told him that would not work for me. He is worried about paying bills at his new place. I let him worry. He claims there was not a relationship but that he made poor judgements because he thought our marriage was beyond repair. He was defensive about admitting anything and for today I backed off a bit. He still has resentment towards me for the past. He asked me to have dinner with him next week. He says he has been feeling guilty about being with the kids and I when he knows he really messed things up when he left and didn't have faith in us being able to get past our issues. He is very worried about my family and how they will feel about us if we reunite( he has good reason to be worried). This issue really worries me too, he really owes my father in particular an apology for the way he has spoken to him and the fact my father has been helping support his wife and children. He told me he feels my family has always been too involved in our lives and use their money to get us to do what they want-I admit this is true to an extent but their intentions are good. My H said some pretty awful things to my father and sister and I am close with my family and they have seen how much I have been hurting. I do feel our issues are between us and if we can overcome them and be happy, over time my family will come around. He says he knows I will not let him come home yet, which is true, so he will have to find somewhere else to stay. I may keep the dogs at the house if things progress. He says he will get me as much money as he can and will start making the changes within himself he needs to make. He sounds to me like a weight has been lifted from him- but I will not get my hopes up until I see what happens- as you have all seen the roller coaster of just this past week alone! I dread hearing what went on, and I know he doesn't want to tell me, but I need the transparency. We are still meeting with the lawyers on Friday- I will continue getting things on paper as far as support and custody. So, that's it for now. Didn't think today would end like this  Maybe the real work will start soon..


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

Love kindlers. Fire them up. Douse those extinguishers. Instead of spending money on the lawyers, how about pro-marriage counselling. 
I am concerned about his fear of the family and friends reaction. Can you assure him that your marraige not their's. You two can work this out. Have you read anything dealing with reunification. He is thinks he wants to come home. But not too quick. You don't want him to repair the relationship with OW. (I think he has figured out that you are the one, and that the OW relationship holds little attraction now). Be all positive. Ask him what he needs from you. Time to have him do a quesstionaire?


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

iamnottheonlyone- I ordered "Getting Back Together" last week, not here yet.

I was prepared for him not being too remorseful and downplaying the affair so that helped. It does bother me that he will easily identify issues I still need to work on, but only says he will start making changes- not identifying what those might be. It was only the first real conversation about this so I'm not too concerned yet.
I am still not finding pro-marriage counsellors that are not affiliated with churches - we live in the South and a lot of the faith based therapists are too much for me- nothing against religion - both my H and I come from Catholic backgrounds, mine being strict. Not many catholics in the south, mostly Baptist - I find some of the faith counseling uncomfortable ( I really rebeled against religion when I left home). I'll keep looking. We'll see what tomorrow has in store for me!


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

CMF - one more thing to keep in mind - and a PERFECT time to exercise it: remember when I suggested that you expect him to chose negative things - and then be surprised when he chose the good? Remember that. It's ok to be a little skeptical right now: over time that will change back to the old trust you once had. But for now, in order to prevent extinguishing some new flames: don't get wrapped up in expecting perfection - and then flipping out when he messes up. He just might. And you just might. But you have new tools! Put 'em to use!!!


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

ok, I will work on that. Patience and non-emotional reactions are not my strong points as you well know


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

You know why I love ya, cmf? The "non-emotional reaction" isn't exactly my strength either. I just had to practice and learn how to do it, or at least recognize "I'm waaaaay too emotional right now and need to call time out until I can get ahold of myself and back on track." Hey the fact is...I get emotional sometimes! I'm cool with that. But the brain has to be engaged to be wise, huh?


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

One of my friends gave me the name of a marriage friendly therapist. And he really is. Check out: www.marriagefriendlytherapists.
Saty the course. Your my hero!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

There's also Dr Harley or his daughter (also a therapist), who do phone counseling at marriagebuilders.com. In all the people I've seen use them, only one has said it didn't fix their marriage. They don't waste time on anything but getting the marriage back on track and having both sides take responsibility for their portion.

Just wanted to point out that, IMO, it was your apology that made all the difference. You were both in your corners licking your wounds, and by you being the gracious humble one, you allowed him to (1) save face and (2) take the hand that you held out. Good job! Humility can do so many wonderful things.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

Turnera you are so right all the time. Humility is something my husband does not know of and I don't think anyone can teach him. This is why this divorce is so difficult for me. I really don't know how to behave at home. I am very business like with him, I stopped cooking, doing laundry or any other housework for him and that does not seem to bother him. I started taking care of myself more: got some new clothes since I have lost about 30lbs since Jan(thanks to stess I am 139LBS now), I go to the gym, spa, massage and I take care of the baby.
I am just so hurt by his behaviour that I really have a hard time hiding that sadness. I know in these moments I am supposed to show more confidence but it is so difficult. He is barely home to notice anything and continues with his behaviour of not giving a damn, I never know when he is coming or going. 

I no longer believe that my marriage can be saved but I don't know how to deal with all this anger, disappointment and hurt all around. Sorry about venting here.

Oh and the affair is still called the alleged affair
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Oh brother. Notready, I suggest you start calling it an "alleged marriage" and just start saying you never were married--pretend it didn't happen--deny it, etc. 

Maybe he'd see that all this denial doesn't mean it didn't happen! :lol:


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

I know you guys speak of Plan A and B but I think I need plan C here. What is more sad he is not communicating about this at all neither with his mom or brother or anyone else for that matter. Maybe I should give him a list of all the people that know of his affair.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I would.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

since a lot of the people on that list know both him and the OW because they were all working in the same place maybe both of them should get that list.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> I know you guys speak of Plan A and B but I think I need plan C here. What is more sad he is not communicating about this at all neither with his mom or brother or anyone else for that matter. Maybe I should give him a list of all the people that know of his affair.


Notready - it still sounds like you spend most of your time _willing_ your husband to do something - as if there is some sort of magic spell or actions that can _force_ someone to do something you want. 

You still think that if only he would say the words 'this is an affair' that somehow things would be different. Why make that assumption? For all you know, he could use the letters 'a,' 'f,' 'f,' 'a,' 'i,' and 'r' in a sentence and nothing at all would change - - -

- - - except that you would feel some sort of victory that he really used the word. 

It's completely irrelevant. It's a waste of time. You should be working on YOU, not him! Sticking voodoo pins in a doll is all for your entertainment - it won't change him at all. The only change that can happen is YOU changing YOU. As long as you dwell on wishing, hoping, willing him to utter some sentence or other, you have wasted time that you could have spent simply improving yourself. 

He will not respond to any attempts to control him, no matter how subtle - in any positive way. So why bother? You'd do much better if you simple ignored him and worked on you - it could really surprise you one day when he suddenly notices what he's losing. 

But he won't as long as you keep trying to find some new tool to make him say something he doesn't want to.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Just a reminder--please let's keep the focus here on cmf since this is her thread. She's at a fairly big turning point right now and I'd like to suggest we keep this about her.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

Sorry I did not intend to hijack her tread.I will go back to my thread to as few more questions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

turnera- I was thinking the same thing. Normally I would not have apologized and honestly it pained me to do it and it wasn't all that great of one to begin with, but the very act of it really opened him up. Feedback from my mother and the children's therapist has not been great- no one trusts him and do not want me to even consider working things out with him until he is consistent with what he is saying and doing( I agree with this too). Quiet day today, only spoke to him briefly about the kids


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

Do you think you could invite him over to talk. Questionairre? Maybe you could read it together and answer it together. Also, in "Getting Back Together" the authors' suggest structuring your communication when you sit to talk. They have 5 topics. You each write an response, taking about 3 minutes. Then read them to each other. Maintain eye contact and listen. With your heart. Then take 2 minutes each and respond. Here are the topics:
1- What I value about you.
2- What I need to feel secure.
3- What I need from this relationship.
4- These are my concerns.
5- My hopes for our relationship.
Watch your body langusge and tone. Don't use a tone you wouldn't use with your boss or a customer. Hold yourself together.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

cmf said:


> turnera- I was thinking the same thing. Normally I would not have apologized and honestly it pained me to do it and it wasn't all that great of one to begin with, but the very act of it really opened him up.


cmf, I'd like you to do me a favor. Next week or month when some bump comes along in the road, and upon actually evaluating it you realize that...ooops there were some things you did that weren't the greatest response... I would like you to remember this day. Here's why. 

Everyone makes mistakes. EVERYONE. Some are real doozies. Some are just little imperfections. But in the end, when a person makes a mistake and then realizes, "Oh rats, I shouldn't have done that" what you really want is someone gracious enough to let you apologize but also save some face. It's bad enough you made a mistake--no one wants it rubbed in their face and held over their head forever! 

To be honest that day when I asked you to apologize, I had no idea how he'd respond, but the fact is, it's the right thing to do. Even if he misbehaved, that wouldn't justify you doing love extinguishers too. So yeah--remember this day. 



> Feedback from my mother and the children's therapist has not been great- no one trusts him and do not want me to even consider working things out with him until he is consistent with what he is saying and doing( I agree with this too). Quiet day today, only spoke to him briefly about the kids


I would like to remind you that your mother has been hurt by him, and not that it negates her opinion, but she may be speaking from a place of hurt and lack of trust. Regarding the children's therapist, I would remind you that even counselors are people too, and if she only heard their side or your side, her opinion will be skewed with only those facts. Know what I mean? I think the main thing to consider is that both of them have a vested interest in seeing you protected and that is not necessarily a bad thing. I think it is reasonable to have a time period here where your hubby would demonstrate consistency, trustworthiness, and openness. 

With regards to your hubby, if the OW was kicked out or moved out (or whatever) and the affair is over--either by his choice or because she dumped him--chances are good he will be feeling a couple of things. I would bet you money he's going through withdrawal right now. If she's gone that means no more "affair-zing" excited feeling and that was a little natural amphetamine...so like an addict he's feeling the pain of losing that. I bet he's feeling depressed, crying, anxious, irritable, has insomnia and sort of feels a restless craving . I'm sure he misses the feeling of being with someone who flattered him and met some needs! So right now part of the reason you haven't heard from him *could be* due to this withdrawal kind of feeling. 

I'll be blunt with ya here, and again this is SUPER HARD. If you can do it--you will be a hero forever. If not, you may want to be kind but sort of leave him alone to get through this. But when I had my EA and my Dear Hubby had to do the exact stuff we tell you guys to do, he did something for me that meant so much it's like a debt I can never repay. That is, for about a week after the EA ended with good, solid no contact, he didn't try to find out every detail or grill me for hours with "relationship talks" -- instead, he told me he was my best friend and I could talk to him about anything just like I would to someone who was my best girl friend. When I cried, I didn't say it was because of missing the OM, but if I wanted to talk he just listened and hugged. It only took about a day or so to realize he really meant it--he would listen like a friend...and he just kept things a little nice and enjoyable. So when I'd cry, he'd give me a hug, hand a tissue, and then say "Want to watch Monty Python?" Yes we had some relationship talks too, but part of what had been missing before was just spending time together having fun and laughing together.

I suggest you do that for your hubby if you can. If he really has kicked her out, let him tell you what he thinks and how he feels. It may hurt a bit to hear--I won't kid ya--but it will sure help him realize AND QUICK who really loves him!! Further, this may be a time he'd plunge into a depression, so if he at all has a tendency that way, you might want to ... bake him some cookies or something, so he has something around the house that is nice and you thought of him. Know what I mean?


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Thanks for the input. I was surprised he didn't try to speak to me but did not push it. It goes against my instincts but I will try not to push him into talking. He is not the evil twin right now at all. I can tell he is scared about being honest about the affair. I'm ok with this right now, I think he is surprised that I didn't want him to come home now. I will see him tomorrow night. 
iantoo- that was all good advice, but I dont think we are there yet, he might still have contact with OW. He is still not at home and there is no transparency .
AC- He does have a tendency towards depression and talking about what he has done will be very difficult for him- by voicing it he will have to accept it as reality. His depression in the past has led to drinking and once to suicidal thoughts so that does scare me.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

> AC- He does have a tendency towards depression and talking about what he has done will be very difficult for him- by voicing it he will have to accept it as reality. His depression in the past has led to drinking and once to suicidal thoughts so that does scare me.


I have to admit, I didn't want to "talk about it" either as I felt a) lonely, b) hurting, and c) like an absolutely FOOL! But what I meant was more like this: 

Me: (crying a little)
Dear Hubby: You okay? Whatcha thinking about? 
Me: Oh you know... just feel kinda bad
Dear Hubby: Oh it'll be okay. Want a hug?
Me: Sure! 

Or maybe like this: 

Me: (tearing up)
Dear Hubby: Having a bad moment?
Me: Yeah kinda
Dear Hubby: Wanna pick a pay-per-view movie and watch with me? 
Me: Sure! 
Dear Hubby: Wanna cuddle on the couch while we watch?
Me: YES!

Then we'd watch and not talk too much...just spend time. That's what I meant when I said we didn't talk heavy "relationship talks" at first and he was just thoughtful. And I think it was day three or four (or so) that we did our first Questionnaire together. We did the personality test first because it's not too scary to share and we learned a lot about each other.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

I may have spoken too soon about the OW moving out. H had to come over early today to get kids for me. He was quiet and cold. On a hunch I rode by his house on my way to work and sure enough her car was there and her child's bike was in the driveway. No one has moved. While he did not exactly say "she has moved out", he did imply to me that he was living alone now. Something is not adding up, I decided to wait and see what he says at the lawyers office tomorrow. I will confront him if he tells everyone she is gone. I dont know if this is part of the withdrawal process but he is not saying anything more right now. I am strangely calm right now, I may have just assumed she moved out by the way he was talking. I hope this is not just one big lie, but I am prepared if it is. Roller coaster continues..god only knows how this week will end.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Thanks for your post AC. I just dont feel like we can start anything at this point- she is still there and he is being distant and quiet.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Remember, there's always a rollercoaster on HIS side, too...Affairs are messy business, and you're bound to get covered in goo if you stay in it long enough.


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## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

You want to hear something horrible I really thought the roller coasters were almost 1 sided till the last 2 days when I realized it may take time but the other one definitely goes through it too.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

My H stayed at the house last night to make it up to my son for what happened at his sleep-over. He wasn't cold, but avoided any relationship talk. Wanted to sleep with me but I said no, we needed to talk first. He admitted we needed to talk but still has not initiated any conversation. I will see him at the lawyer's today.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

Was he asking you to take care of one of his needs last night? The number 1 need for most men, according to Harley, is sex. It is $$$ in the love bank. It can be a deposit in your love bank too. You do not need to talk about the relationship and solve any problems. (More Harley) You need to get that bank open and start making deposits. Plan A. You know what to do. Do it! He needs reassurance from you. He doesn't have to fill out the questionairre for you to know his top need. Ofcourse you can't let him just jump in and jump out. Make him romance you. That is one of your needs.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

Lets look a little deeper here. The affair is under stress. He tells OW he owes it to his son to sleep over. He assures OW that he has no interest in you. But he really is using the visit to be with you. You denied him. He is stressed. He wants what he cant have, like most people. Do you give him some romance? But not go all the way? What did you do when you were dating? Can you get some hot intimates? Think through this. He will want another visit. No love busters.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I agree.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

I dont even know what this man has been up to sexually- I can only imagine. I want him tested and yes I feel like he will use me for sex - there is no romance to this. I know sex is a high need for him, but the last time we had sex it was like a one night stand and I am not going through that again. Not sure what to do.
iantoo- "hot intimates"????


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Do you know his other needs?


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

I pretty much agree with the 5 top needs of men from Harley's book- they are all important to him. I feel like over the past 2 months I have been meeting the other needs - except the admiration part and sex- there hasn't been much to admire out of him and I will not sleep with him while he is with other women and not honest about it and not tested for diseases. Am I unreasonable for wanting to get into our issues first?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Not at all. It's just that HE has to want to, too. And the way to get that to happen, usually, is for YOU to become the most attractive option, for him to be glad to be coming home to you after work, for him to get excited thinking about what you guys can do together. You know him best; what would that entail?


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Something is definetly not right. I just came from the lawyers. He once again tried to remain in the house he is in( despite the fact he obviously can not afford it) and keep his "roommate" there. He became upset with me when I mentioned a trip the kids and I are going on in July. Was indifferent to the fact he had given me no money for bills this month. He basically acted like a spoiled child. He is pouting again that the kids are leaving tomorrow for a week with my parents and will miss Father's Day. The evil twin was back which is a shame because he was my husband this morning. These mood swings are awful...I am calm though and mildly annoyed ( which is an improvement to how I normally react). He sure isn't acting like he is ready to work things out.
Turnera- I know EXACTLY what it would entail and I just dont think I can do it yet. I will be pleseant tonight when he sees the kids despite how he acts towards me.


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## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

cmf you are doing good you really are!! Keep your head up!!! The mood swings are what kills me my H isn't as extreme as your H's but they are bad so I feel for you.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

As expected he was angry when he came to get the kids, complained about me making decisions about the kids without consulting him ( the trips). I offered to let him stay and watch a movie with the kids tonight, but he made excuses as to why he couldn't ( I find it interesting that he carries on about how upset he is that the kids are going to be gone so long, yet when offered the chance to spend time with them he wont do it) . He was slightly calmer when he left- still angry with me but I wouldn't argue with him. Another dose of reality I guess. I was expecting this behavior anyway , I'm sure he'll refuse to come in when he brings them home. I wonder if I'll hear from him while the kids are gone this week.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

I wrote "Not go all the way." MAKE him romance you. No one night stand treatment. Could you stand hugging and kissing?


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Well, I was expecting the worst when he brought the kids back and was pleasantly surprised with how it went. He stayed for over an hour with the kids and we had a conversation for about 30 minutes. It started out with him still a bit angry but ended well. He asked if he could kiss me and we made out for a bit. He is coming over tomorrow afternoon so we can talk about where to go from here. The meeting with the lawyers freaked him out and he thinks I am just leading him on trying to trick him into admitting something for court( the same thing I was scared he was doing). Now that I've had time to process, I can understand he is upset that I made travel plans for the kids without consulting him- he has been saying for awhile that I don't include him in decisions. I took Tanelorn's advice tonight and changed my expectations so I was not disappointed and he surprised me .


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

P.S. Kids report his "roommate" has packed up all her stuff at the house. I am still going to get support established through the courts regardless of what we decide to do


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## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

cmf good for you I honestly hope I can be as strong as you  Also that is awesome she is on her way out!


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## cb45 (Oct 2, 2009)

was surfin and found this thread. i read 1st page and skipped to this, the last of many pgs. 

am wondering, did anyone mention yer H could be bipolar?
in what little i've read, the words moods/mood swings and the
like keep popping up in yours and others posts.

if he is, then u have a whole 'nother animal on yer hands.

also.....r u thinking of taking him back, now that his floozy is
taking a hike?

i'm sure u've rec'vd some good advice from some of the old pros
who've replied here.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

He has trust issues too. Talk to him about the child support. Don't involve the legal process if you son't have too. Stay away from the lawyers. They do not have reconciliation in mind. The courts only want to move the cases along and improve their statistics. Stay out of court.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Once we can sign off on support and visitation we wont be doing anything unless we decide to file for divorce in October.
cb45- I have thought exactly the same thing, in fact when all this started the only way I could explain to myself the drastic change in personality was that he had a manic episode or break. BUT his behavior also is textbook for an unfaithful husband. Hard to say for sure,but I am aware of it.


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## Neverwouldhave guessed (May 5, 2010)

I have found the legal separation so beneficial for my peace of mind, plus it sent the message to my H that I was not going to let him dictate support, the house, etc. Not all attorneys are bad. You retain an attorney to protect your interests and guide you when you are too emotional or uniformed to make the legal decisions you need to for your future. My attorney is great. He does not mess around and my H knows it. My attorney commented right after our temporary hearing that he had practiced law a long time (he has - old school) and that he didn't think my H came across like a man really wanting a divorce. He asked me right in the courthouse if I still was 100% sure. I said "no." He suggested that before the train left the depot (so to speak), I should just give the entire situation some time. We can start mediation at any time, but he feels once that starts it tends to often be a point of no return for many couples. A person can consult with as many attorneys as necessary (many are free for a 1 hour initial consult) to find one that fits your personality.

CMF-our situations are somewhat similar. Almost 10 months since my H moved out and his brief affair over. He has said twice in the past week that he wants us to work out. Funny, I had just turned the corner to more of indifference towards the marriage. Probably a very good thing, because I can be stronger on significant issues such as STD testing, looking for true remorse, his taking responsibility for 50% of the marriage breaking down in the first place, indentifying Love Busters/Needs, etc.

My H was usually a total mean creep to me (still can be a little bit) during much of the affair, but I know (as it sounds as though you do) that this wasn't "him", but his evil twin in action.

I'm not trying to hijack this thread, but simply reinforcing to you that when we take some of the great advice found on this site, the probability of a successful reconciliation is greatly increased. Time will tell for both of us. My H is still in apartment (waiting for me to ask him to move back.) Through this site, I have learned that I need to SEE some actions meeting his words before that. STAY STRONG!!


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Thanks! It does sound like we are in similar places. Keep me updated on how you are doing.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

cmf said:


> Once we can sign off on support and visitation we wont be doing anything unless we decide to file for divorce in October.
> cb45- I have thought exactly the same thing, in fact when all this started the only way I could explain to myself the drastic change in personality was that he had a manic episode or break. BUT his behavior also is textbook for an unfaithful husband. Hard to say for sure,but I am aware of it.


This is why "Legal Separation" is the final step in our steps to end an affair. At times the disloyal spouse is SOOOO fogged in and dizzy that they just will not pay child support (can't afford to take out their lover) or expect to be able to visit "when it's convenient for them." If the loyal tries to ensure they do at least continue financial responsibility for their children, they have no real means to "enforce it" and he disloyal says they are being "mean or heartless." Thus, at time like that it is reasonable to have courts who are not the loyal but society at large saying "Yes your children MUST be supported--this is primary and is not a request" and "NO , you see them at certain prescribed times so that both parents can plan and carry on with their lives. 

Again, it is the natural consequence of their choices to be unfaithful, and the hope is that the legal separation will outlast the affair and yet also impress upon the disloyal that affairs COST and are painful. Here's the truth, if you do divorce you do not get rid of problems. Those problems remain, there's a whole new set of problems, AND it always, always, always costs you something that you hold precious. 

In your instance cmf, I would proceed with the legal separation so that you do have CS, etc. spelled out and have some protection--but there's no reason it has to be agreed to or written by the lawyers. Maybe to take *some* of the sting off for your hubby you could suggest doing as much as you can by mutual agreement. There may be some numbers for example that he disagrees with (you think he owes $1000 per month, he thinks $400 and won't move). Cool maybe you two could agree to $700 and be done -OR- maybe you could agree to run the state's CS calculator and take whatever amount that says. You know, you two CAN agree on any figure you like! It doesn't HAVE to be the state's figure. That is just the minimum they would agree to! Anyway, if you two can agree to all the parts of a parenting plan, there's no reason a lawyer has to "negotiate" it or write it even! Agree, type it up, give it to your lawyer for an "okay", file it.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Today I am struggling ..wondering if there is really any hope of this situation truly working out. Can I ever trust again? Will he just think he can leave whenever he is stressed? Should we even be trying when he is not fully wanting to come home? Of course advice from friends/family and co-workers has been RUN! and not beleive anything he is saying. I feel like I am being naive. Someone told me today that no relationship she has ever seen where partners were seperated for over 6 weeks ever makes it. I am frustrated because technically he is trying but not fully commiting to the process( so he has an out I guess). I know I am letting other's opinions influence me but they point out his history over the past 8 months has shown his inconsistent behaviors/actions and not to trust him. His reactions when I told him I had been talking to another man leave me unsettled. While he said he would"prefer" I not pursue another relationship right now, he did not feel he had the right to stop me?? What? The H I knew would have flipped out and insisted I not continue. I am left feeling like he really could care less what I do and does not truly want us to be together and is continuing another relationship himself.. Obviously, I am an emotional wreck about all this and basically am not voicing any of this until i am calmer


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

Do you think any of these 6 week couples knew what you know? Any of them make an effort or just throw in the towel? Stay calm. Think rollercoaster.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

That's true, not many people know about all this. I'll try to stay positive.


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## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

cmf I read your post earlier today and it made me sad and then made me smile. It made me sad because I know that sometimes when others in our lives are telling us to just run it almost seems easier to do that. It is also hard because it is like you are having to prove to them also that you are good enough and so is your H. but it also made me smile because you are a head of the game with most people who are going through a separation/divorce. For the most part when a couple is going through this they are not putting in the hard work to try to save it and YOU are so I would not even put yourself into the statics your friend gave you. I have never heard that and even if it is true(which I would have to see some cold hard facts) I would not let it get your down!


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

cmf said:


> Today I am struggling ..wondering if there is really any hope of this situation truly working out. Can I ever trust again? Will he just think he can leave whenever he is stressed?


You know cmf, none of us can tell the future--we're not psychics.  But I would say there is DEFINITELY hope and you definitely could trust again if he was dedicated to rebuilding trust and you were dedicated to deciding to let it go after seeing consistent actions. Will he think he can just leave again? I would recommend making that a mutual agreement between the two of you: that we BOTH agree that we don't just "walk out" on the other partner. That makes people feel insecure. 



> Should we even be trying when he is not fully wanting to come home?


cmf, bear in mind he didn't say he doesn't want to come home. What he said was that it wasn't the wisest time to come home right now. There is a big difference. He may very much want to "come home" to be reunited with people who love and care about him--but some things you did hurt him and he's not dumb: some things he did hurt you and the family! So some of those things need to be "made right" first. Furthermore, you need to see consistent honesty and he needs to see that you are serious about the changes you've made! So this is a good time to not come home actually.



> Of course advice from friends/family and co-workers has been RUN! and not beleive anything he is saying. I feel like I am being naive. Someone told me today that no relationship she has ever seen where partners were seperated for over 6 weeks ever makes it. I am frustrated because technically he is trying but not fully commiting to the process( so he has an out I guess). I know I am letting other's opinions influence me but they point out his history over the past 8 months has shown his inconsistent behaviors/actions and not to trust him.


cmf, you are a wise, mature woman with a good head on her shoulders. Yes, there is a risk in trying. And yes, it is conceivable that he will hit yet another inconsistent pattern and prove he's untrustworthy. Yes you are allowing the opinion of others to influence you--then again they are people who care and whom you trust. And yes, I myself have seen people come back to reconcile after 18 months! I myself worked to save my first marriage for 2 years or more, and it was my exH's choice to divorce. My point is that if YOU are willing to learn to be a better spouse and HE is willing to learn to be a better spouse, then you CAN do this! At this point he has dug himself a bit of a hole, I'll admit...and you're wise to not jump in and blindly trust him. Then again, I have personally witnessed people have a life-changing "light bulb moment" and go on to rebuild a new, healthy, loving, committed marriage. I think you will sleep better at night knowing that you did everything you could to save your marriage--whether it works or not, you need to actually change YOU and allow him the chance to try to change him and not do perfectly and not meet your expectations. Okay? 



> His reactions when I told him I had been talking to another man leave me unsettled. While he said he would"prefer" I not pursue another relationship right now, he did not feel he had the right to stop me?? What? The H I knew would have flipped out and insisted I not continue. I am left feeling like he really could care less what I do and does not truly want us to be together and is continuing another relationship himself.. Obviously, I am an emotional wreck about all this and basically am not voicing any of this until i am calmer


You know what's funny? I actually took that ENTIRELY DIFFERENTLY than you did. I took that as a huge compliment of respect. He's been a JERK! He ran off and moved in with another woman, caused you and his family TONS of pain, and who is he to tell you that you can or can not talk to some other man? That's how I took it. He told you what he would request but he didn't make it a demand. He gave you the respect of allowing you to make up your own mind, and plus...HE chased after someone so who is he to tell you that you can't do what he did!? 

So hon, you are a wreck. I love ya but you're melting down. Want to just cry for a bit and feel scared? It's okay to do that you know--this is scary! It's like taking a step and not knowing if there will be anything under your foot.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

I had a rough night last night. H did not initiate contact all day. I sent one text to which he sent a short reply. I tried calling him x2 much later on and got no response. I know I should not have contacted him, but I had all kinds of bad thoughts about why he was unavailable. I thought if I talked to him I would feel better. My expectations for this week were too high, and I feel let down. We had a few good talks, no actual contact since Saturday. If he had wanted to see me, he would have and that's hard for me to accept. He seemed sincere with the reconciliation talk, but his actions dont back it up. I may be too impatient but I was not a priority for him this week, as he said I would be. I feel discouraged again and like I have undone some of my progress. Not sure what to think about it all.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

This is a marathon, not a sprint. There will be fits and starts and, no matter which way this goes - together or apart - none of it will be a smooth ride, ok? 

What can you do for yourself to get your mind off of it?


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

cmf said:


> I had a rough night last night. H did not initiate contact all day. I sent one text to which he sent a short reply. I tried calling him x2 much later on and got no response. I know I should not have contacted him, but I had all kinds of bad thoughts about why he was unavailable. I thought if I talked to him I would feel better.


Soooooo...you EXPECTED him to make you feel better, huh? And you EXPECTED him to initiate contact, all day and actually all week. You EXPECTED him to reply with a long text. You EXPECTED him to pick up the phone and chit chat talk on the phone for a while...or maybe even have a deeper talk. You EXPECTED that if he was available, he would contact you and not sleep. You EXPECTED that if he didn't contact you he was chasing other women. You EXPECTED that if he did contact you, he would "make" you feel valuable, loved, lovable, smart, beautiful, funny, wanted, desirable or cared for. 

Is there any chance that you're noticing a pattern here, cmf? I care about you--you know I do or I wouldn't spend all this time here with you. But your uncommunicated expectations are killing not only YOU, but also killing your marriage. This is definitely going to be your #1 Love Extinguisher that you'll need to work on. 

Going over your expectations one by one: 
You EXPECTED him to make you feel better. Actually how we feel is a choice that we make ourselves--and yes our spouse's actions can definitely affect that choice positively or negatively--but he can't "make" you feel anything. So rather than putting your responsibility for your emotional state on him, I suggest that you accept ownership of what is YOURS and be personally responsible. If you need to feel better, think on your own of things that you do that currently bring you joy, and choose to do one!
You EXPECTED him to initiate contact, all day and actually all week. If this is the case--that you expect him to initiate contact--that's cool, but you need to communicate this expectation to him. "Hey handsome, I just wanted to be clear that this week, would you please be the one who initiates contact? It is really helpful to me and gives me a little hope for the future, and I'd appreciate the effort." If you expect something and don't say it OUT LOUD people can not read your mind, so they will disappoint you over and over and over...and over and over!
You EXPECTED him to reply with a long text. Why? Is he the kind of guy who is "chatty" on texts and usually replies with big long texts? Or is that out of character for him? If it's his usual character, why not just says OUT LOUD: "Hey I would like to talk. Is this a good time for you or when would be better? I have nothing serious to say just miss ya!" If it's NOT in his usual character, then why would you expect him to suddenly be who he's not? 
You EXPECTED him to pick up the phone and chit chat talk on the phone for a while...or maybe even have a deeper talk. Again is this in his character? Is he the kind of guy who likes to linger on the phone and chit chat? Did you ask him out loud if he would like to talk? Did you tell him you would like to ? 
You EXPECTED that if he was available, he would contact you and not do something else--like sleep. This one, rather than talking about "saying out loud what you'd like" or requesting it, I'm going to just point out one thing to you. You sort of assumed that at some point he was available--but don't really have facts to know for a certainty. He may well have worked 60 hours and gone home to crash! OR he may well have been available and gone to counseling and not wanted to tell you. My point here is that without facts, you made some assumptions. 
You EXPECTED that if he didn't contact you he was chasing other women. Ah--I bet you can guess what I'm going to say here! I realize there is reason to be somewhat insecure here, but this is a leap that's not based on facts but on conjecture. If you find facts, cool then suffer...but until you have facts, I suggest that when you run into a situation like this again, you literally write a journal listing all the things he COULD be doing that are not "chasing other women" that are legitimate. Hey it was good weather yesterday! He may have been mowing the grass!
You EXPECTED that if he did contact you, he would "make" you feel valuable, loved, lovable, smart, beautiful, funny, wanted, desirable or cared for Please just see the first one up above about choosing your feelings.  



> My expectations for this week were too high, and I feel let down. We had a few good talks, no actual contact since Saturday. If he had wanted to see me, he would have and that's hard for me to accept. He seemed sincere with the reconciliation talk, but his actions dont back it up. I may be too impatient but I was not a priority for him this week, as he said I would be. I feel discouraged again and like I have undone some of my progress. Not sure what to think about it all.


cmf, you're in Plan A right? Plan A means ending the Love Extinguishers, and now you know that expectations is something need to REALLY work on. I would suggest that this weekend, you buy a blank notebook and start a journal, and I'm going to give you an assignment. This weekend, I want you to write down every expectation you had this week of your hubby--then beside it write if you said it out loud or not--next to that, write if you TOLD him or if you respectfully requested it (or N/A if you didn't say it out loud)--and next to that if it is your responsibility, how you could have met that expectation on your own in other faithful ways...OR if there were assumptions made, what other faithful options there may have been. So FOUR COLUMNS: Expectation, Out Loud?, Tell or Ask?, Notes. Okay? 

Please PM me that list on Monday.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Once again I have been freaking myself out- my kids are away this week and I have been working a lot more but at night my mind wanders. I went out with friends for 3 nights and that helped too. I will do as you suggest- I am leaving this Sunday for the beach with the kids for a few days but will update when I get back. Thanks for helping me, I thought I had a handle on the love extinguishers. I had a lot of time this week without the kids and we had discussed using the time to really focus on our relationship and that really did not happen - maybe he really did put in overtime like he said . I did expect more and told him, but he said when he has the work he has to take advantage of it because it can dry up quickly- and I do know this to be all too true. His history of dishonesty really gets to me though. I will do what you asked Affaircare. Thanks.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

You know I support your efforts. Your mistakes are much smaller than mine. They are expected. They are more like missteps. Patience. The long view. It ain't over until its over. Distract yourself.
You recognized that your expectations were too high. YOu have the vision to do the best you can.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Yep I agree with IANTOO--they are missteps. And everyone panics and freaks out (shoot I know I sure do)! But there is a way to change that, and it's by changing the way you think. 

So yep, work on the assignment and it can be due after you get back home from the beach. We're going camping this weekend too, so no huge rush--just don't put it off.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Well, I felt the need to post-even from the beach. The evil twin reappeared Saturday afternoon and has not left. He was distant and irritable with the kids and I. We had made plans and suddenly all he could do was complain. I tried to engage him in conversation several times and he was shut down, very negative about everything it seemed. He said he was stressed about money and couldn't focus on anything else, he said working was his top priority right now and he couldn't think of anything else. He came over before the kids and I left today and continued to complain about everything, angry that the kids were going out of town again, angry that he couldn't take them to HIS house. I reminded him that I thought we were working things out and could he try to be positive in the time he does have with the kids. I ignored most of the complaining. When we got ready to leave he said"See ya". Complete reversal from most of the past week. He had been affectionate just Saturday morning when I saw him. I asked him why he was being so cold with me and he said our relationship was not a priority to him right now, that he mostly just wanted to work it out for the kid's sake. He just didn't feel anything towards me. Now, I am pretty sure this is dizzy talk again , because I know we were getting closer over the past 2 weeks and I wasn't imagining it. But that is how we left things, his phone has been shut off ( non-payment, a natural consequence, and I did check to make sure) so no contact for the next several days. My son told me yesterday that when he called his father last sunday morning, the woman he lives with answered his cell phone and said he was in the shower( not what he told me happened). The affair continues .


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yes, it does.

For now, just be on top of things.

Consider this your 'test', ok? 

SHOW him how you can take the high road. Marathon, not spring.

Your major goal is to show him that YOU have integrity.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

We are still at beach, it has been fun and relaxing. I have a job interview here at the beach tomorrow. We'll see what happens- I have been trying to relocate to the coast for some time and things may be falling into place. My H has called the children while here, we have not spoken. I really dont know what I would say to him at this point anyway. It seems we are right back to where we were before he started the reconciliation talk last month. I am beginning to think he is incapable of being a husband and father again. He appears so self absorbed and has not followed through with any of his "promises" of doing right by the kids and I. The last time we spoke all he did was complain about how bad he had it. Missed a support payment last week too. Financially it really hurt . Any advice as to how to proceed with talking to him? or go no contact?


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

We hope against hope that they will open their eyes and see the world clearly. In the fog, out of the fog, in the fog. Only brief moments of lucidity. But every time they are lucid we can't help but think that they are back. Nope, nada. Rollercoaster.
But you are much calmer in your reaction. You seem disappointed but not overwhelmed.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

iamnottheonlyone said:


> We hope against hope that they will open their eyes and see the world clearly. In the fog, out of the fog, in the fog. Only brief moments of lucidity. But every time they are lucid we can't help but think that they are back. Nope, nada. Rollercoaster.
> 
> 
> > Tell me about it. My H has been acting like that all week. From one end he seems happy, he tries to do now things as family(yeah after 6 months of doing none of that) but on the other hand divorce seems to be proceeding. Don't know what to think of him anymore. It's almost as if he wants to back to be normal but who knows anymore.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

Still in Plan A? We all have to keep plugging.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

For now plan A, I just have avoided talking to him beacause I would probably say something negative right now.Being out of town helps.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

Sounds good. Enjoy your time at the beach. It is a great week to have a vacation here in the Northeast.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

How has your week been? We haven't heard from you. That probably means things are drifting along and you are relatively stress free. Right?


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Thanks for checking on me IANTOO. My days at the beach were great. I leave again for 2 days in the mountains of West Virginia. 
I have been home for a little over 24 hours and my plan A went out the window yesterday( I told him I was sick of hearing how bad he had it and all his complaints about money, when he hasn't paid support in several months). My H's mood swings , lying and negativity have been non stop since last Saturday.Evil twin is back and I prefer no contact right now. He still lives with OW, the affair continues and his actions did not support his words. I am much more at peace not speaking with him. The negativity has been the worse part of this lately, it's non-stop with him now- I guess it could be withdrawal but I am too tempted to let him have it , so I prefer no contact. Have a great holiday week-end!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

He's not providing child support, right? Don't you think it's about time you filed legal paperwork to MAKE him do so?


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Already in the works, he is delaying the process by canceling meetings but I am ready to stop collabrative divorce and take him to court. His lawyer knows this.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Have you considered Plan B?


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

turnera said:


> Have you considered Plan B?



Agreed - this may be time.

----------------
Now playing: Katchfire - Bounce
via FoxyTunes


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

I think you are right. Just let him stew. Not quite to withdrawal yet. But I am sensing it is close. Have fun in WV.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I also agree--the time for Plan B is coming up and quick! (Especially if the affair is continuing and the lack of child support is continuing.) 

So you have a little "time off" coming in WV? I would say take these next two days and get some ducks in a row for Plan B/Consequences Phase. Study it so that you know what you're doing, find an intermediary or use Parenting Notebook so that all communication is about the kids and it is written (aka DOCUMENTED), and start reviewing the Sample Consequences Letters so you can start thinking about how to word yours. 

Then take the days in WV and take real time away from all the marriage worries and just enjoy yourself and your children. When you come back you'll be rested and ready to move ahead.

Next week, I would request that you check in with us here before you go into Plan B/Consequences and let us review your letter, etc. This request is to be sure that you make this major move wisely and in a way that isn't an emotional reaction but a well-thought-out, logical move. Obviously you can do it yourself--you are a smart, fully-grown woman! But it might be helpful to take these steps WITH those who are here to support you.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Ok, I am back from my travels. A few things happened right before I left. H showed up with 2 support payments and begged to talk to me. I refused at first, but eventually listened to him for about 10 minutes. He claims he has done some soul searching and really did mean the things he said to me about wanting his relationship with me to work and wanting to be a better person than who he is now. I have heard this before , actually just a few weeks ago and let him know that his words do not hold much meaning to me at this point. He said he knows he needs to show me and that even if I do not want to reconcile he needs to do this for his children and himself. I told him I hoped he was sincere this time and time would tell. I did not speak with him at all while away. He called the children 2 or 3 times. It seems the time has come for Plan B. I will start looking over that information. I did a version of Plan B in March and some of April ( before I found this site and even knew about Plan B). I need to become more familiar with it in order to do it correctly. I am much more relaxed after my 2 trips and have enjoyed not dealing with him . I will probably speak with him tomorrow at some point as I'm sure he'll want to see the kids.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

I think it is still a Plan A. He is on the rollercoaster but the hills and dips are smoothing out. You did great with keeping your temper and poise. If he is talking the right stuff, why shut him down? You should start talking about what he needs to do to show his commitment to you and his family. I think getting out of the house he is in would be a first step. No contact with the roommate would be another obvious one. AC and Turn should give you an idea of structuring his return to you and the household.
No lovebusters.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

The reasons I had personally for suggesting this is the time for Plan B/Consequences stage are: 

1) He has talked this talk before and not followed up with actions. Talk=hot air. The affair is not ended. Thus...next step.

2) CMF has spoken to him before about what he needs to do to show commitment to the family (and her) and he has not done those steps: 
End the affair--writing a No Contact Letter and letting CMF mail it; 
Give her access to his accounts and life so he is transparent to her; and 
Commit to working on his issues personally and the marriage.
He could have kicked the roommate out LAST TIME he searched his soul...and he didn't. So the affair continues...next step. 

3) CMF is almost to the point that her flame of love for her husband is completely doused by the ongoing Love Extinguishers. This is evidenced by the fact that she lost her cool and that she is more at peace when there is little or no contact. Her own words: _"...he is delaying the process by canceling meetings but I am ready to stop collabrative divorce and take him to court"_ and _"My H's mood swings, lying and negativity have been non stop since last Saturday.Evil twin is back and I prefer no contact right now. He still lives with OW, the affair continues and his actions did not support his words"_ indicate that Extinguishers on his side continue and that she has about had it. BEFORE you completely run out of love for your spouse, you want to go into Plan B/Consequences so that there is still something to build on if they do decide to come around and end the affair. 

Thus I do think it is about time for Plan B/Consequences and still encourage CMF to look up the links I gave her so she knows what she's doing. Then when she's ready--maybe later this week or so--go ahead and take that step. 

Here's the fact: for the marriage to survive, the affair has to end and he has to follow through on his words. "Promises" don't cut it anymore--actions might.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

Since he won't acknowledge the affair it is impossible for him to do the things asked. You can still insist on the transparency as a condition of moving forward. In your situation we are probably dealing with another hydrid. A Plan Aplus. He is not completely recalcitrant. You are feeling empowered by his tucked tail. You need to stay confident and talk this out. Rollercoaster. Stay positive.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

iamnottheonlyone said:


> Since he won't acknowledge the affair it is impossible for him to do the things asked.


I disagree.

He CHOOSES not to acknowledge the affair.

If she goes Plan B, he can then CHOOSE to finally acknowledge it, IF he wants his life with her back. Period. HIS CHOICE.

All she is doing in Plan B is saying "You are not honoring what I need in my life that is required if I am to allow you in it. If you ever want to be back in it, you are welcome - IF you are willing to provide these basic things that I need if I were to allow you back in.

Plan B isn't about what you want to make your spouse do.

It is about the life you are willing to live. The wayward spouse, according to the letter he receives, is welcome to join her in that life any time he decides that what she requires are worth him giving. If not, that's fine, too, because she will not go down that road again.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> Since he won't acknowledge the affair it is impossible for him to do the things asked. You can still insist on the transparency as a condition of moving forward.


His acknowledging the affair is by NO means a prerequisite for moving to a Plan B. If anything - if he DID acknowledge that he was being unfaithful, there would be a good chance that a Plan A would be more effective. But a Plan B is never contingent upon the Disloyal Spouse taking steps to remedy the situation - that would be, at the very least, viewed as some sort of vengeance. Plan B is not about punishment, nor retribution. It is designed to protect what is left of the love in the marriage, and to leave the Disloyal Spouse with no means of relying on the Loyal Spouse for ANY support. Period. It means that the Disloyal must start realizing that the cake they had ..... is GONE.

True, as long as he doesn't admit this is an affair, he can't admit to his wife that he is having an affair - but redundancy is simply a waste of time. If he wants to come back to the marriage: Plan A OR Plan B, he MUST fill the conditions she has laid out. Whatever the plan is is irrelevant. The conditions remain the same.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

iamnottheonlyone said:


> Since he won't acknowledge the affair it is impossible for him to do the things asked. You can still insist on the transparency as a condition of moving forward. In your situation we are probably dealing with another hydrid. A Plan Aplus. He is not completely recalcitrant. You are feeling empowered by his tucked tail. You need to stay confident and talk this out. Rollercoaster. Stay positive.


Yep I agree with turnera and have sort of a funny feeling that maybe you're not "getting" the concept of Plan B/Consequences. 

In this instance, even if he never ever used the terminology "affair" to describe his relationship with the OW, they are roommates in a house together! It would not require him to say it was an affair to send kick her out of the rented house and send a No Contact Letter...but that would GIGANTICALLY put actions behind promises! 

Iam, hybrid Plan A/Plan B is confusing and sets an example to people that is fairly rare. Seriously about 98% of the time, it's Plan A/Carrot & Stick or Plan B/Consequences period because as we've written before, one step builds upon the other with the ultimate goal being "End the Affair" and the secondary goal being "Become a better person." In all my years of working with people to recover after an affair, I can think of one or maybe two that went to hybrid and that was an instance like NiceGuy where he's so burnt out he can't do an effective Plan A/Carrot & Stick. He did not do a good Plan A, so that going to Plan B would be/would have been ineffective toward ending his wife's infidelity. BUT that's one in ten years. I could possibly think of a couple more but it is EXTREMELY rare. 

In this instance, CMF's Plan A/Carrot & Stick hasn't been perfect but it's been darn good and enough to make him at least "soul search". That kind of self-improvement is always a good thing to continue and I see no reason to stop that sort of self-growth in Plan B. But at this point she is running out of steam AND her Disloyal is not getting the message that he needs to actually *END THE AFFAIR* or she won't be around forever! 

So I agree with turnera--well said.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

I'm nervous about doing Plan B because it feels final to me- he has already taken a " well , there's nothing I can do now" stance and is only speaking about the children. Which pretty much says to me - I'll just blame you for this not working out. He hasn't even asked to see the children , which surprised me. Perhaps the affair is going good again. I'll look at the Plan B stuff later tonight.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Just remember, Plan B is NOT done to get him back.

It is what you do when you simply can't get him back how you're doing it, and you are suffering yourself. If you feel like you can sit back and watch him cheat for 6 more months...well, only you know that. I will say that doing so basically tells him you are a doormat. And I hardly EVER see a wayward come home to a doormat.

In fact, I've seen more come home once their betrayed spouse DOES give up and walks away (Plan B), simply because the WS is no longer meeting half of his needs, AND because it drives him crazy to think that she isn't sitting at home, wimpering, crying and begging him to come home. All of a sudden, he may go 'wait a minute, you're supposed to be dying to have ME back.'

Not a guarantee, please know that.

But psychology tells me that we dismiss what is right under our feet, wagging its tail for us, and we CRAVE that which doesn't really need or want us any more.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

I am the rookie. I am looking over eneryone's shoulder trying to get a sense of things. I still see progress over the last two weeks. As I heave learned from the "wise ones" there is no magic bullet. Nothing happens today, right now. He isn't gonig to jump up and say "I am back" and really mean it. Can't we see that with Flower. She is trying so hard and still her mind is poisoned by the affair. Can't we cut your man a little slack and be patient. Two steps forward, one step back. Or the optimist says: one step back, two steps forward. I'm still hoping Plan A will do the trick.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Well, the good thing is that a good Plan B takes a good two to three weeks to set up. You have to line up intermediaries, set schedules, inform day cares or schools, write a kick-azz letter, all that jazz.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

cmf said:


> I'm nervous about doing Plan B because it feels final to me- he has already taken a " well , there's nothing I can do now" stance and is only speaking about the children. Which pretty much says to me - I'll just blame you for this not working out. He hasn't even asked to see the children , which surprised me. Perhaps the affair is going good again. I'll look at the Plan B stuff later tonight.


I know that this step--into Plan B/Consequences stage--can feel really final and scary. That's because up to this point, some part of you feels like as long as you have contact you can control things and work it out so that SOMEHOW you "Make" the marriage get better...if only you had the right magic words in the right order!  Okay not exactly, but in a way it's sort of like that, and if you actually let go and go into Plan B/Consequences with no contact and filling NO needs, there's a good chance they would decide to leave the marriage and divorce! 

CMF, it's up to you. As always it's your life and your marriage, but when I see that you are losing your cool on the occasion and when you say that you found it peaceful not having to deal with him, I think it sounds like time for Plan B to me. Before you go into Plan B/Consequences, you do send him a letter that once again re-iterates the ACTIONS he would need to take to demonstrate to you that he's serious. Thereafter, every time he tries to contact you, you can say "Oh are you ready to give 100% of your affection and loyalty only to me and do the things in the letter? You're not? Okay bye!" and hang up. Either he will or he won't, but either way you will have the peace of not having to ride his drama rollercoaster and your marriage will really be no different than it is now. 

Have someone else lined up as an emergency contact (If you have a dire emergency and need me, please contact XYZ and they will let me know) and let them receive every email, call and attempt. OR if you'd like you can use that parenting notebook so all his attempts are in writing and documented. Change your phone number and email if you must. The point though is to disengage. He can continue the rollercoaster of moods and infidelity and whatnot--you are choosing to disengage from it all and let some peace and stability back in your life. Hopefully when there is no contact and no needs being met it will be the kick in the pants that he needs to actually DO the actions he needs to do to recover the marriage, but honestly? Right now he is living with another woman, so you going no contact it's going to end the marriage any more than his own actions already have! 

So have courage CMF and this time, stand up for yourself and for your children. Let him work his way back if he wants to. He could do it--if he would only DO it!


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Well, I will be starting the letter soon. He no longer has computer access that I know about, so I guess communication about kids will be through the lawyers. He has made no effort to speak to me in several days and has greatly decreased his calls to the children. I cant beleive that just last week he was talking about getting our family back together and now it's as if it never happened and all that has happened in the past month was just nothing. I really thought he was ready to work things out, as we discussed several key issues in our marriage and how to avoid our past mistakes. Once I give him the letter there is no looking back. I am also sending a proposal to settle support and all financial issues, so that I can sell the house and move on. Any good links to sample letters out there?


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## Neverwouldhave guessed (May 5, 2010)

I'm sure you've thought of this, but make sure you photocopy anything before you send it. You never know when your computer will accidentally "eat" your documents.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I have a few resources for you: 

Sample Consequences Letters
How to Know When to End The Consequences Stage 

and 

Parenting Notebook

Now I realize that you said he doesn't have internet access but you could certainly use that broad idea of an actual NOTEBOOK in which you would put the kids' schedules, upcoming activities, etc. and then have a place for you two to write requests, etc. back and forth.

Please post your Plan B/Consequences letter before you send it so we can give you some tips, but overall I'm just going to say this. I can sense the sadness even your post across the internet. I'm sorry he's choosing this, cmf.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

He asked to speak to me tonight when he called the kids. He sounded very depressed and hopeless. He stated that his "roommate" was moving out tonight and he would be leaving his house in the next 2 weeks. He expressed feeling left out that the kids and I went out on fourth of july with friends and did not think to include him. He complained about some other things in his life. I said"sorry to hear it" and "not sure what you want me to say here". He said he wanted me to say nothing and he just wanted to let me know what was going on. He invited me out to dinner with the kids tomorrow night and I told him it probably wasn't a good idea at this point. He said he understood and "would not beg and plead" to spend time with me. This is exhausting. His hot and cold routine with me has grown tiresome. I dont know if he is expecting me to comfort him or solve his problems for him or what. I did none of these things and just asked him if he wanted to speak to the kids. Is this also typical for the waywards?


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

Haven't you read about this over the past couple of months? It is all predictable. He may be going through withdrawal. He has been more positive then he has been in the last two weeks. The rollercoaster is flattening out. Don't throw lovebusters. Even if he is playing you, why love bust. You are better than that. You know it. You have gotten stronger. Don't take advantage of his apparent weakness now that you are more than his equal. Nurse this. Just don't nurse him.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

So, today 2 calls from H to my work and multiple texts. I did have dinner with him and the children tonight. He started reading His needs , Her Needs and even brought up things he had read about ( says he has read about 50 pages so far). He was positive and attentive to all of us. He asked to spend time both Friday and Saturday evening with the kids and then said" I would like to spend time with you too". He even noticed I had my nails done. More roller coaster? Probably, but it was nice. Will see how long it lasts this time.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Well, count me very hopeful. Any wayward who reads HNHN has a GREAT shot at 'getting it.'


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

Plan A. As he is reading your book he will understand what you are doing. He will also understand the consequences. Check your copy and see where he is at in the book. Do you think he might want to talk about what he has learned? Maybe you could listen? 
You give me hope!


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

This is good news. Be skeptical, but also very, very open. This is a crucial time for you - this is what you've been aiming at for a long time...


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

I will be skeptical, have not even confirmed that OW is really gone yet. He has been too hot and cold. I had thought I was at that cruical point almost a month ago but then lots of backsliding. He did call again right before he went to sleep. I am worried that one of my children became a little too happy to see us getting along tonight and I DO NOT want to have my child upset if once again H becomes cold and distant. H is meeting with my children's therapist next week and she plans to talk with him about the messages he is sending to the kids through his actions/words, so hopefully he will make more of an effort to be consistent with his moods around them.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> I am worried that one of my children became a little too happy to see us getting along tonight and I DO NOT want to have my child upset if once again H becomes cold and distant


This should be a minor problem. Over the years, your kids will see you in various emotional stages. I would not try to disguise my feelings in order to 'protect' them - that's too much like lying to them. They are smart enough to figure out a lot more that we give them credit.

On the other hand, leaving your husband with impressions of joy in your presence can go a long, long way...


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Hey CMF~

I am positive this article will help you: How to Tell When it's Time to End the Consequences Stage

But for those who are in a big rush and can't get over to see it, here are the first five in the list of what it will look like when it is really time to end the Consequences Stage:

#1 – When Disloyal Spouse works on their issues ON THEIR OWN—without Loyal Spouse having to beg, plead, or “remind” them to go to counseling or a meeting
#2 – Disloyal Spouse will come to Loyal Spouse and ask for forgiveness, taking personal responsibility
#3 – Disloyal Spouse’s ACTIONS will show that they have changed by the way they treat Loyal Spouse
#4 – Disloyal Spouse will not try to force Loyal Spouse to “believe me, I’ve changed!!”
#5 – Disloyal Spouse will show respect for Loyal Spouse’s lack of trust

(there are 15 more on the list!)

I say it is more than reasonable to stay skeptical. I would suggest that you remain skeptical and proceed with legal issues unless and until you see the things on this list happening. Otherwise it is most probably smoke, mirrors, deflection and delaying tactics.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Affaircare, Tanelornpete, Iamnotheonlyone, finallyseewhy- I am at a loss right now on how to proceed. H is trying, saying he wants to work things out but not return home. He is moving at the end of this month and plans to live alone or with a male friend. He is spending most of his free time with the kids and I right now. He has asked me and the kids to go on a trip this week-end and wants just the 2 of us to spend time together this week. He says he wants to rebuild our relationship because he does not feel he can just return to being married. None of this sits well with me and I feel he is trying to have the best of both worlds and pick and choose when he is a husband and father. He is not wanting to return to the marriage- but start over with me. I explained how this would only confuse things for the kids and I and get their hopes up. He says the times we have all spent together over the past 2 months are the only joy he has had in his life for a long time. I feel like he is manipulating me. I know I have been wanting to get to a point of reconciliation, but this doesn't feel right. I agree that we have a lot of work to do to rebuild our love for each other, but just "dating" doesn't seem like enough. He says he does not want to see anyone else or return to going out and drinking,but I am just too leary of all this. I feel like I should set some limits with all this, or should we be moving this slowly? Should I even be thinking reconciliation with him at this point? I basically left things with him tonight as "we'll talk tomorrow".


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Well I have a quick question for you. Have you said to him, out loud, "This does not sit well with me and I don't want to have to 'date' you. You are my husband, made a vow to me, and broke the vow, and I'm not willing to enter a competition. So to my mind the question is this: do you intend to honor your vows to me, become my faithful husband, and work it out? Or not?"


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

Outside of the reading I have done here and the suggested reading I have read about ending a separation. What he is suggesting is not a bad thing? I think he very much wants to be your loyal husban and I don't think asking him will make him move forard. It sounds needy. You don not want him to return unless he is absolutely ready. If he returns too early statistics show he could leave and give up. He is being smart about his recovery. I do not think he is manipulating you. He probably still holds doubts that you have fully adopted the changes you have made. Should he return only to leave? You want him to be absolutely want to be there. 
As you might know (Have you read my thread this week.) my wife has moved into her own apartment this week. She is renting it from her boyfriend with a year lease! And Plan A still seems to be progressing. I have learned a lot from you and your experiences. Both of us have come a long way in the past 3 months. It is okay that he doesn't return. He is away from OW. In the withdrwal stage but progressing VERY rapidly towards recovery. Reread the recovery stage in your books. This is very fast. I think it is so quick because the affair burned out rather than you prying them apart. Be positive, positive, positive. Do not revert to needy or pleading. You and he are becoming the soulmates you wanted. Deep breath. You (and he) are doing great.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

AC- I have said to him that I will not be second best or an option for you. He replied that was not the case and he was not seeking another relationship. He is focused on starting from the beginning with us. I have decided to stop doing things as a family with him, it is too confusing to the children and although we all enjoy it, by allowing it I feel I am enabling him to avoid responsibility and accountability. It would be too easy for him to avoid the realities of parenthood and marriage by coming and going in and out of our lives. If he wants to work on the relationship it will have to be done outside of his visits with the kids . At least this is what I plan on saying. I just started reading "Getting back together" and I know that reconciling too soon is not a great idea,but it has been almost 9 months.

update: Spoke to him this morning and told him I would not continue the family outings. He was ok with it, but wants it to happen again . He says he will concentrate on the two of us. He is open to counseling/coaching . We discussed living arrangements- he says he wants to come home but is afraid it is too soon. He said he is willing to talk to his landlord about working out a deal for August where he is not paying the full amount and helping find a new renter for the house and then us making a decision about him coming home. I can live with that if it can be worked out. I felt the conversation went well.


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## Neverwouldhave guessed (May 5, 2010)

cmf - In my case, I actually suggested the "dating." The physical separation had lasted so long, and even when he was in the house it was pretty miserable for about a year. We started "dating" about a month ago, but you know what?? Because you know each other well, it can progress to something more very quickly (in our case within a few weeks.) Neither he or I was ready for him to just move back (he is now, and I'm getting there.) I felt we needed an opportunity to become familiar and comfortable again.

I did insist that while we were in the "dating" mode, for however long it took, there could be no other women - period. I needed to know he was giving this 100%. He was free to let me know he thought we would not work out at any time, and then he could do whatever he wanted with his personal life. I just could not share my husband during this critical time in deciding the course of our marriage.

Moving back too quickly is a mistake. Wait until you are both on the same page and 100% commited to making the marriage work. It is too hard on both adults and any kids involved to do the moving out thing yet again. I do think there is a point where you must share your home to grow as a couple - you and he will know when that time is right.

I'm still not sure about my marriage - did much thinking overnight after he and I had talked. But, I can say we are in a MUCH, MUCH better place than just 4-5 weeks ago. It could be decided in a few days, but I'm giving it until Labor Day. After that, I think I will have exhausted my patience and will want to truly move on.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

NWHG- Thank You, I am pretty much taking the same approach now. I am basically giving it until the end of August.

IANTOO- I have another resource for you- look up Dr. Bryce Kaye- he is a therapist in my state who has a website that offers a lot of free articles and interesting concepts on relationships- you can basically read most of his book from the website. He has a bit more of an intellectual approach.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

CMF~

Your decisions and choices are not making a lot of sense to me today. Now I get it--that it may just be me or I'm not "getting it"--but I don't understand why you're doing what you're doing and what message it's supposed to be sending. 

I understand not wanting to be second place or part of a competition, and I understand not wanting to start over at "dating" as if you have to prove something to him--after all he made a vow to you. So that part I do understand and according to your own words you did say that out loud to him and "...that was not the case and he was not seeking another relationship. He is focused on starting from the beginning with us." 

The very next sentence though does not make sense to me. You write: "I have decided to stop doing things as a family with him, it is too confusing to the children and although we all enjoy it, by allowing it I feel I am enabling him to avoid responsibility and accountability. It would be too easy for him to avoid the realities of parenthood and marriage by coming and going in and out of our lives." So you're going to not allow the children to spend time with their mother and father together? How does this build the marriage and family? How does this benefit their relationship with their father? How does this reunite the family? I'm sorry but this doesn't make sense. 

I sort of see that you're saying "Why spend time together as a family if he's just coming back for the kids, get their hopes all up, and then he doesn't really try and next week it's back to the same old Evil Twin? Why spend time as a family if our marriage isn't going to work out?" Is that kind of what you mean? 

Anyway if you could just clarify your reasoning, how you came to that conclusion, and what message you are trying to get across I would very much appreciate it because right now I'm :scratchhead: and


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Ok, I am pretty much saying what you said here : 


I sort of see that you're saying "Why spend time together as a family if he's just coming back for the kids, get their hopes all up, and then he doesn't really try and next week it's back to the same old Evil Twin? Why spend time as a family if our marriage isn't going to work out?" Is that kind of what you mean? 

I am afraid the kids will read too much into it and think we are not divorcing, when that still might happen. He has yet to really follow through with us spending one on one time together and I think we need to do that before doing family outings. Maybe I am wrong in this, but I dont beleive he will follow through( yet). My oldest is VERY focused on us getting back together and him coming home. I am hopeful that he is sincere and he is willing to go to counseling /coaching to help with the process. Recommendations are always welcomed


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

My recommendation is be honest with your kids. You are their world - they spend all their time reading you two. Tell them the truth in an age-appropriate way.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

So...what do you do if he is simply gun shy after whatever actually brought about the environment in which he found the affair to be a cure? What if he is testing the water to see if it is safe? It seems to me that your demand is 'I don't care what your interest is, as long as you do whatever I tell you to.' 

Making demands that are outside the normal 3 suggested (no contact, transparency and commitment to work on the marriage) become means of control. I can understand you wanting to 'make' him behave - but the desire to have what may appear to the public as a 'normal' family - we all live under one roof, 2.5 kids, cat in the yard, picket fence - - - is window dressing.

Work ON the marriage may include determining if the original troubles that existed...are still there. Are they? If they are missing, is it obvious to your husband?

Two things: discuss it with your kids. Tell them what is going on, and that you are working (not 'trying') to fix the troubles between you and dad. 

Second, work a compromise. Sit down with your husband, tell him WHY you think it is important that he live at home 24/7, etc... and let him tell you why he is hesitant. Find out the reasons, and then work together to come up with a solution to which both of you are equally satisfied. (Called POJA on Marriagebuilders. We call it a MUU.)


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

I feel like we already worked out a compromise- he will try and work things out to spend one more month in his house, and then we will make a decision about him moving home at the end of August. We will spend time together as a couple during the next month. We will talk to the kids and I do want to continue doing things as a family( I just thought I should wait until we were closer to reconciliation and he was really following through with actions that support what he says). Feedback from here has mostly supported continuing the family time so maybe I will keep doing it.
I really am not trying to make him behave or control him, I just want to be smart about all this .


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

CMF, Stay the course. You have been doing a awesome job healing yourself and the marriage. You know all about the rollercoaster. Has he finished His Needs, Her Needs? So he should have a basic understanding of the concepts involved and he shuld be working on it. Have you discussed those needs? He should be on board with no love busters. Is he?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

When I said talk to the kids, I mean to tell them that you are trying to fix things but that such things don't always work out. Reassure them that you will always tell them the truth, no matter what. They don't need to know details - just be aware that you may NOT get back together, you will still hang out and see if you can make it work, though.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

I will talk to the kids . He has not finished the book, but he has used a few things from the book that I have spotted( like being attentive and noticing small things about my appearance). We have not discussed love busters, kindlers . I don't think he has read that far.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> He has not finished the book, but he has used a few things from the book that I have spotted( like being attentive and noticing small things about my appearance).


Its very encouraging that he is reading the book - and working on some things. 

Questions: have YOU read the book? Are you also working on his needs? 

Have you _both_ taken the Emotional Needs/Love Busters quizzes? It is not effective, and can be a huge mistake to _assume_ that either of you actually know each others most important needs/busters...


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

I have read the book, and I am trying to meet his needs too. We have not taken the quizzes. We have not spent any one on one time together - the kids are with us when I see him. I am trying to see if he will follow through with one on one time - so far he has not mentioned actually scheduling the time. I do not want to nag, as we discussed this subject recently. He said he would go back to counseling so I may just set that up and start there.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

cmf said:


> I feel like we already worked out a compromise- he will try and work things out to spend one more month in his house, and then we will make a decision about him moving home at the end of August. We will spend time together as a couple during the next month. We will talk to the kids and I do want to continue doing things as a family( I just thought I should wait until we were closer to reconciliation and he was really following through with actions that support what he says). Feedback from here has mostly supported continuing the family time so maybe I will keep doing it. I really am not trying to make him behave or control him, I just want to be smart about all this .


CMF~
This sounds like a very, very reasonable compromise. You have a little more than a month to work on things as a couple and see how you're progressing; he has the reassurance of starting from the beginning and rebuilding, and you have the reassurance that it's not "forever" but has a limited duration. I also see that it was important/enjoyable to him to continue family times together and you agreed to give that a try. I do realize that do some degree this feels like a risk, but I would encourage you to stay a little skeptical but also a little open to the possibility that is may work too. 



> I have read the book, and I am trying to meet his needs too. We have not taken the quizzes. We have not spent any one on one time together - the kids are with us when I see him. I am trying to see if he will follow through with one on one time - so far he has not mentioned actually scheduling the time. I do not want to nag, as we discussed this subject recently. He said he would go back to counseling so I may just set that up and start there.


I have a suggestion. One way to introduce or start the idea of the counseling might be do the quizzes (go to the site together and get them) and another might be to work together to set the counseling appointment. You want to be sure it is a joint agreement and he's enthusiastic, so don't make the appointment and then try to "make him go." Okay? Regarding one-on-one time, what would happen if you called, texted, emailed him as if you two were singles and said, "Hey you cutie! Want to meet me for drinks and dinner after work? My treat tonight!" and then don't do relationship talks--just have some fun together, flirt a little, and have a date. Or go bowling--haven't done that in forever. My point is that it wouldn't harm you to ask him out, and it might boost his ego a little to know you wanted to take him out (hubba hubba).


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Thanks AC, I did invite him over Thursday night after the kids go to bed and he mentioned maybe getting a sitter for the week-end and just us going out. We had bad storms tonight and he called 3 times to make sure we were ok. Big difference from a few months ago. He took the kids to therapy today and had a joint session with them. He said it went well, he seemed deep in thought afterwards.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I bet. Waywards RARELY have to take a good honest look at what their actions do to their kids.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

> ...He has not finished the book, but *he has used a few things from the book that I have spotted* (like being attentive and noticing small things about my appearance). We have not discussed love busters, kindlers . I don't think he has read that far.


Just so you know, cmf, I find this EXTREMELY encouraging. Not just "oh that's kind of good" but :smthumbup: encouraging because not only is he actually reading the book--even if he hasn't finished it--he's reading it seriously enough to think about it and to actually make the attempt to TRY some of it. I do remind you that his first attempts to actually ACT on some of the MB concepts may not be exactly right, but that's okay. When you first practice something, the idea is to give 'er a shot, then say, "Well that went medium...I think I'll do this or that to make it even better next time." Also he's likely to be a little gunshy. So WOOHOO--that's some substantial "out-on-a-limb" kind of behavior! Please do your best to encourage it to continue. 



> I have read the book, and *I am trying to meet his needs too*. We have not taken the quizzes. We have not spent any one on one time together ...


Okay bear in mind that what you THINK his needs might be and what he actually needs may very well be two different things. That may be part of the reason there was an affair in the first place, because meeting needs also involves partly the awareness of his Myers-Briggs Personality and his Love Language too. So just as he is giving a try to some new behavior, I say :smthumbup: YAY good job! Keep trying!! I assume you have the stuff to get the counseling going now right? And you know where to find the kindler and extinguisher quizzes at least right?



> ...*I did invite him over Thursday night* after the kids go to bed and he mentioned maybe getting a sitter for the week-end and just us going out. We had bad storms tonight and he called 3 times to make sure we were ok. Big difference from a few months ago. He took the kids to therapy today and had a joint session with them. He said it went well, he seemed deep in thought afterwards.


First, GOOD FOR YOU putting out the offer and inviting him over tonight. I'm proud of you for taking that risk. Since you are just at the beginning of things may I make a suggestion that really worked fairly well for me? I suggest you two talk and agree to something like the "1-2 Questions" rule, which states something like: "When you are together, the main goal is to have fun with each other and enjoy each other's company, but also to address some of the relationship issues. Addressing all those issues can put quite a dampener on enjoying each other, so we agree that we can ask each other 1-2 questions, the answer to the 1-2 questions has to be honest and in depth so it's answered fully, and 'I don't know' or 'I don't remember' do not count as fully transparent answers. Either spouse can ask either one ANY question and after those 1-2 questions there will be a brief break and then our 'fun' activity will commence or continue with enthusiasm."

I propose this because often one or the other spouse wants to REPAIR THE MARRIAGE FULL-STEAM AHEAD and the other is not quite ready for that, so it feels like being steamrolled. This agreement offers both the chance to have those nagging questions answered,fully and honestly, and a chance to create new, happy, positive associations with each other. 

Sooooo...cmf, I am tickled. Look at these three posts. They are showing some fairly decent progress!


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Last night went well, discussed love busters, he was a bit defensive about it. We agreed to spend 20 minutes discussing relationship stuff and then just enjoying our time together. He took the love extinguisher quiz with him . We made plans for the week-end. One thing I noticed was my youngest child was horrible while he was here last night. Tantrums, refusing to follow directions, angry . Now, he is a bit stubborn on his best days but this was over the top as he is now not used to his Dad helping with bedtime baths and putting him to bed. My H handled it better than I would have thought- normally he would have gotten angry and frustrated ( evil twin would have blamed me) but he showed a level of understanding that surprised me. My H is taking the kids for a week to see his mother and grandfather soon and we discussed plans. It will be a difficult week for him because the kids are not used to having him around that much and they have gotten extremely close to me. Overall, last night went well, we only spent about an hour alone . He called to talk this morning. Will work on setting up counseling soon.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

Geat stuff cmf. You are so strong. If only Flower77 could be as disciplined as you, she could find love with her husband. I just keep my fingers crossed for you (and my future).


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Thanks for the encouragement, I just take it day by day right now. H seems so much more invested now, he seems happier too. I am worried about adjusting back to living together, all of us are kinda used to a new routine now. We have a month and a half to figure it out. All this takes so much patience, something I used to have little of. IANTOO you are doing great too, it hurts when they seem to be together all the time( beleive me I know) but it really is the beginning of the end for them.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

cmf said:


> Last night went well, discussed love busters, he was a bit defensive about it. We agreed to spend 20 minutes discussing relationship stuff and then just enjoying our time together. He took the love extinguisher quiz with him . We made plans for the week-end.


Okay note to self. Although ending the Love Extinguishers will actually help the marriage a LOT (because think about it--you two have loved each other through THIS, and if all these hurts weren't going on ya kind of do like each other ) it can actually be a somewhat hard place to start. I mean here's someone who has REALLY hurt you, lied and cheated, whatever...and you don't really trust them with your heart...and you're supposed to open up and actually tell them what they did wrong in the marriage. That, is REALLY risky and can feel pretty unsafe to do. So if you are going to continue doing lovebusters or Love Extinguishers, please agree to do them SLOWLY so you don't hurt each other. If he is honest and you suspect he's being open and vulnerable, thank him for trusting you enough to be honest and be super conscious to not hurt him or "attack" when he's done that or it will be forever for him to trust you enough to do it again. Even if what he says is complete poppy****, Evil Twin, foggy Dizzy Talk...say "Thank you for being honest. Obviously my opinion differs from how it sounds you experienced it...but I'm going to think about what you said." Then walk away. 



> One thing I noticed was my youngest child was horrible while he was here last night. Tantrums, refusing to follow directions, angry . Now, he is a bit stubborn on his best days but this was over the top as he is now not used to his Dad helping with bedtime baths and putting him to bed. My H handled it better than I would have thought- normally he would have gotten angry and frustrated ( evil twin would have blamed me) but he showed a level of understanding that surprised me. My H is taking the kids for a week to see his mother and grandfather soon and we discussed plans. It will be a difficult week for him because the kids are not used to having him around that much and they have gotten extremely close to me.


Hmmmm...could be an eye-opener to the damage he's done. I say let the kids "teach" him because they have that innocent honesty that can really say it like it is. Let's just say I'll be praying for this to beneficial both for him and for the kids. 

Otherwise...  good job again! You're staying the course and it's turning (slowly) toward shore and returning to dock. Keep being the lighthouse, cmf.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

The lighthouse metaphor seems so appropriate now. While reading that, my eyes watered. Your the best CMF!


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

In times of weakness I reread your thread. I get reinforcement by doing it. It has been more than 2 months since I joined TAM and it seems I have trouble remembering what to do and what is happening to me. I need to constantly refresh myself. Your thread makes for good reading.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Just remember I went through where you are at 3 months ago. I joined about 2 months ago. I found out about the affair 4 months after we separated. My separation turned very ugly after I found out in Feb., with about 6 weeks of non-stop fighting. I pretty much did everything you are not supposed to do( both of us did). You have been doing great but it seems your roller coaster is just starting. Remember how crazy it made me? I was ready to give up every other day while it was going on. Just remember she is struggling with what she wants and will go back and forth- just keep doing what you are doing and concentrate on yourself and your son. I still struggle as this is a slow process of recovery but I do see that it may work out . I'll keep updating.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Wow...this is not easy. Had a personal low point last night. Things are progressing, but then a reminder of the affair and I feel like I have been punched in the gut. Someone my husband knows mentioned to him that he accidently called "your wife" the other day by mistake and he was sorry. My H mumbled that it wasn't his wife that he called. I just had an immediate reaction to it. Of course it was OW. My H tried to explain to me what happened and I felt he was lying to me. My H got defensive and snapped at me. I left. He called me a few hours later. I was also upset at not having been introduced to his new frends. He introduced them to me, saying "this is so and so", but no introduction to who I was. He said he didn't know how to introduce me, he said these people know he is separated. He is not comfortable calling me his wife. I know this is all reasonable for him, but I didn't like it. He asked to come over for coffee this morning and I agreed. It went ok, he seems to be trying but I guess I had not prepared myself for this happening. He honestly seemed concerned about my reactions. It was an eye opener, I am so used to being lied to that I don't know how I will ever be able to beleive him again.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Make sure you keep telling him how you feel; you need complete honesty on BOTH your parts now.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

Wow. I feel your pain. With the progress you two are making I can see how difficult this moment was for you. You probably wanted to scream!
This kind of behavior by your husband reminds me of my own behavior just after I married my wife. I didn't always introduce her as my wife. When we would bump into a woman I knew who I found attractive I would hesitate in introducing her. It was only after the commitment to her was cemented did I stop hesitating. 
You know he has been making progress towards commitment. But he's got to get to the cement point. Keep the positive energy flowing. Chant my mantra: Patience, patience, patience. Type some more on her if you are still stressed. I (we) would like to help you get over this hurdle. We are here for you.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

God, I hope that wasn't what he was thinking. It was men though, not women. He said he didn't know what we were to each other at this point. I probably personalized it too much. I know he has not yet been completely honest about his relationship with his "roommate" and I feel like he never will at this point and I am afraid to move forward without hearing it. Once again, I don't know how people recover from this and trust again.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

cmf said:


> Wow...this is not easy. Had a personal low point last night. Things are progressing, but then a reminder of the affair and I feel like I have been punched in the gut. Someone my husband knows mentioned to him that he accidently called "your wife" the other day by mistake and he was sorry. My H mumbled that it wasn't his wife that he called. *I just had an immediate reaction to it.* Of course it was OW. My H tried to explain to me what happened and *I felt he was lying to me.* My H got defensive and snapped at me. *I left.* He called me a few hours later. *I was also upset at not having been introduced to his new frends*. He introduced them to me, saying "this is so and so", but no introduction to who I was. He said he didn't know how to introduce me, he said these people know he is separated. He is not comfortable calling me his wife. I know this is all reasonable for him, but *I didn't like it. *He asked to come over for coffee this morning and I agreed. It went ok, he seems to be trying but I guess I had not prepared myself for this happening. He honestly seemed concerned about my reactions. It was an eye opener, I am so used to being lied to that I don't know how I will ever be able to beleive him again.


Okay cmf, you know me. I'm going to tell it to you like it is and I'll bet you money you won't like it. 

The first thing I'm going to remind you is that your husband is not here on the site asking for help or seeking help from this forum. You **ARE** here and thus my comments will be looking at you, at your choices, etc. Where it's reasonable I'll mention what I believe is his side of it just so you can see "both sides" but I'll be focusing on you and what you need to do and where you steered off course so you can do better next time, okay? I have underlined what I think are "his parts" and I bolded and made red the parts that I think are your responsibility. 

So this ALL STARTED because one of your hubby's "friends" (I use that term very loosely) called your hubby's "wife" and they meant the OW not you. Right? Using your own words, your hubby mumbled that the OW was not his wife. Considering you used the word "mumbled" I get the image that he did not stand right up, loud and proud, and say, "That women was someone I saw when I was separated that hurt my family and me tremendously. This fine woman HERE is my wife, and I'm happy to be back with her!"  Is that right? The choice of the word "mumbled" seems like you thought he was stammering or whispering...less than enthusiastic about a) admitting what he'd been doing or b) who you were. 

cmf...before I even go any further, do you see the love extinguisher? In fact, it's the one that is your Achilles heel: expectations that aren't communicated out loud. You EXPECTED that he would either a) admit the OW was an affair or b) enthusiastically proclaim YOU are his wife and/or he's happy to be back together with you. He was caught unawares by a "friend" (more on them later) and his response did not meet your expectation. Mistaking the OW as his wife was definitely a triggery thing and could have been a slap-in-the-face, but you EXPECTED, he didn't meet the standard of what you expected, you reacted and never did communicate your expectation or make a respectful request out loud. 

This is not HIS side of the street--this is your choice to react that way and your choice is your side of the street. So this IS something that you can change and may want to work on. Having an uncommunicated expectation is like a trap from him. You are not coming to him as if he is an equal and giving him the freedom to say "no" and then offer what would work for him--you EXPECT him to do what you want and your way. PLUS you don't even tell him! So he has no way to be equal or to win. 

Sooooo...the "friend" says "Hey man, sorry I called your wife." Your hubby mumbles "Umm...well we aren't really married....ummm...." with you standing right there. Right there--in that split second--you have the option to use that WTFS method I suggest to people. 

"*WHEN* your friends don't even know that *I* am your wife
I *THINK* you aren't really all that committed to this recovery
I *FEEL* really unimportant, not very valuable, unloved and like you aren't proud of me
*SO I'm going to ask* if we could go together to your friends, and introduce me as your wife whom you are proud to have" See how you tell him the thing he does, what you think and feel (in case he's a thinker or feeler) and you make a request? It puts him in an equal position with you, and he can counter with what would work for him. Make sense?

Now let's talk about the "friends." Remember that a true friend would tell someone, "What the heck are you doing man? Go back to your family and make it right with them..." and a true friend would assist him in doing the right thing. If he is not hanging with "friends" who would be happy for him that he's reconciling his marriage, you may want to WTFS with him about choosing to hang with people who *encourage* strong marriages rather than encouraging divorce. You know as well as I do, cmf, that often people who are in an affair surround themselves with other people who encourage infidelity and divorce.

Okay...let's continue. You say "My H tried to explain to me what happened *and I felt he was lying to me.* My H got defensive and snapped at me. * I left.*" Do you see here that you say that you felt he was being dishonest--not that you had logical reason to believe that the facts didn't match what he was saying? This means that as the fear of being "lied to" began to well up--rather than holding it back some and using your mind to compare facts and words or investigating further, you let your feelings overwhelm. You "felt" he was dishonest but was he? Who knows? 

Now when we women start to get emotional, men almost always--VERY, VERY OFTEN--try to explain as if understand *why* they hurt us will make it hurt less! :lol: In real life, it's a lot easier if we women can tell them: "Please don't explain WHY you hurt me as that doesn't help. Right now what would help is if you told me she's gone, you love me and only me, and said something in front of everyone to stand up for me." If he was here, I'd tell him that explaining rarely works. Saying, "Oh oh! Sticky situation. I'm sorry we are in this position." would work! But he's not here right? And since you ARE here, I'm telling you that if/when he starts to explain--just tell him "Honey don't explain. It doesn't make things better. Here's what would make things better." 

He got defensive--not too cool of a choice but I can see why. He didn't know what you expected, you didn't communicate it, and he tried to explain and it didn't help. You left. Possibly not a great reaction to turn and leave--after all he may feel unstable or like the relationship is threatened if he's not perfect. Then again you didn't stay to escalate it further. 

Sooooo...in summary, I would recommend apologizing to him for not communicating your expectation to him as an equal, for not giving him the freedom to say no, and for assuming he was lying rather than verifying the facts. Then I would recommend actually doing a W-T-F-S statement with him asking him to go together and introduce you as his wife. See what I mean? Speak right out loud what you want and respectfully ask him if he'd be willing to do that.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

cmf said:


> God, I hope that wasn't what he was thinking. It was men though, not women. He said he didn't know what we were to each other at this point. I probably personalized it too much. I know he has not yet been completely honest about his relationship with his "roommate" and I feel like he never will at this point and I am afraid to move forward without hearing it. Once again, I don't know how people recover from this and trust again.


1) Tell him what he is to you. You're not divorced, you're not separated, you're not living together--what are you guys? Come up with a name/title that you BOTH feel comfortable with, not just you. 

I personally vote for Husband/Wife (since you are married). Some alternatives: spouse, mate, partner, bride/groom, lover, other half... or how about "He's my old man" "She's my old lady" like the hippies used to do! It's humorous but also acknowledging. 

2) Regarding hearing the truth about the "roommate" you already know the truth, cmf, and you do not demonstrate the ability to control your emotions if you hear something you do not like. So I can understand why he's not ready to be entirely open yet. MAYBE you could have a chat with him and just say, "I want to put to rest the OW/roommate because I can not move forward and rebuild trust without some closure here. I'm going to just say that I have reasonable proof that it was much more intimate than if your cousin had been your bunkmate. However, I also know that you may not feel safe enough to be completely open with every detail. For now can we agree to move forward saying that the relationship between you and her was more affectionate and emotionally closer than a guy sharing a dorm? If you agree, I will say 'thank you for your honesty' and think of it as a compliment that you were willing to take that risk...and then I'll work on letting it go on my side." 

3) You recover from this by verifying, but his words and actions matching, by YOUR words and actions matching, and by both of you committing to work on your own side of it.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

I am not upset with you AC. I was not proud of that reaction, it caught me off guard and I reacted without putting any thought into it. I was hurt that he doesn't call me his wife and he tried to explain why. He invited me out to meet his "dart team" he joined a month or so ago. The mention of the OW just hurt and reminded me of it all . He started to show some of his signs of lying when I asked him about why others would be contacting the OW when trying to reach him - defensiveness, mumbling, avoiding, dizzy talk. I think in the back of my mind I am concerned that the affair has not ended- and yes I can not prove this. Next week my H and children will be surrounded by non-supportive family and friends when he goes to see his family and old friends. All of these people would love to see us divorce and although he told me he has spoken to them about trying to get back together and to not speak badly of me to the children I cant help but wonder if this will only set us back.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

Any way you can use your new found skills to help heal that "old friends and family" rift. Then you could be less concerned. You shold probably speak to H about this issue. Honesty is the best policy!


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

There was never any one rift it has been this way since we first met. My H comes from a very dysfunctional family that has not been very involved in our life . I tried to reach out to his family shortly after we separated and it was a huge mistake as they fully encouraged what he was doing. He usally goes to them and his old friends( they all live in another city) when he is angry with me . They all seem to support his excessive drinking and encourage him to find another woman who better suits their way of living . This visit was set up months ago when we were heavy into custody issues. I do have reason to beleive they all "loved" his "roommate" and supported the relationship and I have voiced my concerns about this.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I know exactly what you mean, CMF. When a person is dysfunctional, they often don't really want to do all the work that's necessary to really heal--they just want others around them who say "Oh you're dysfunction is fine" or who make it "easier" for them to do it. 

I come from such a dysfunctional family, and it's hard to figure out how to set a boundary and enforce it, but also keep it healthy. I would say this week would be a great week to figure out a few healthy boundaries ahead of time and figure how to enforce them while near the dysfunctional family. Remember a boundary is a fence AROUND YOU and does not involve controlling them. They are free to be drunk, do drugs, live the wild life...but the boundary says, "I no longer choose that for my life, so if you choose to do that, I will not be participating in that with you and I may not be able to stay with you if you pressure me or disrespect my boundary."

What do you think? Can you let your hubby come up with some of his own boundaries? And help him figure out on his own how he might enforce them?


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

I really have no choice but to do that. His family ignores me, they just encourage him to date . I have spoken to my children each day they have been gone and they seem fine, having a good time , but already asking when they are coming home. I need to VENT a bit- I've not heard from my H today, he plays darts on Monday and I worked late. He did not call this afternoon as he said he would. He did tell me yesterday that OW( or his "roommate " as he still calls her) still has not moved out all her stuff at the house and has stayed there a few nights. It makes me uncomfortable, but he was honest about it. I actually passed her in my car today and it made me feel sick. He leaves to join the kids and his family on Wednesday, so no progress this week either. We both did the love extinguisher and kindler quizes and they basically showed that we were both doing all the extinguishers and none of the kindlers for each other.He has also stopped reading "his needs, her needs". All these things added together are very discouraging. I also wonder how being with his family and old friends for 5 days will affect things. I guess I'm just having a bad day today, but I feel like this is going nowhere. And yes , my expectations are to blame for how I'm feeling. I am just venting, sometimes we need to, it makes me feel a bit better to get it out of my system. As far as boundaries, my main concern is my children being exposed to their value system ( or lack there of) and having the family speak badly about me to my children. They usually do not do this when I am around, but I haven't been around them in over a year.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Maybe it's time to set up more strict boundaries.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

Rollercoaster. We have such short memories. One good moment leads us to believe we have regained our footing. It is a slippery floor. Tread carefully. I have had one of those expectaton weeks too. I think if he stopped reading His Needs, Her Needs it is not a bad sign. He has the drift and he recognizes the extinguishers. If he not kindling much I wouldn't so concerned. Patience CMF.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

> I have spoken to my children each day they have been gone and they seem fine, having a good time , but already asking when they are coming home.


At times when they are with their dad, I would encourage you to set up a regular time when you will call them. That way you have something to look forward to (contacting them), and they have some consistency in their life (mom calls at bedtime). Also bear in mind that if they love their dad and are having a good time with him, that doesn't mean they are "on his side" or don't love you. It's a good thing for boys to love their dad, and just so you know, it may encourage dad to think of his children too. 



> I need to VENT a bit- I've not heard from my H today, he plays darts on Monday and I worked late. He did not call this afternoon as he said he would. He did tell me yesterday that OW( or his "roommate " as he still calls her) still has not moved out all her stuff at the house and has stayed there a few nights. It makes me uncomfortable, but he was honest about it.


Thanks for saying it's a vent. That helps to realize you're just blowing off some steam. I have to admit that not doing what he said he would and having OW stay for a few nights would steam me too, so it's understandable. To be honest, the contact with the OW is not cool and it is reasonable to be uncomfy about that. 



> He leaves to join the kids and his family on Wednesday, so no progress this week either.


Actually I see no reason why both of you would make "no progress" this week. Just because he's on vacation and with his family doesn't mean he should slip right into old habits, and just because you don't have the kids doesn't mean you should go back into expectations either. I would think this might be a good week for you to take time to think without interruption and consider what you want and evaluate where you are currently! So there's a lot that could be done, cmf, but both of you. So don't give up hope! 



> We both did the love extinguisher and kindler quizes and they basically showed that we were both doing all the extinguishers and none of the kindlers for each other.He has also stopped reading "his needs, her needs". All these things added together are very discouraging.


Yeah, starting with the Love Extinguishers can be tough because you already sort of are hurt by the person, and then they tell you all the things you're doing "wrong." It could so easily slip into defensiveness and add more hurt where there already is hurt. But the good news is--now you know! It gives you a starting point! Try to be a little bit encouraged, because now that you know, you can examine yourself and make changes to yourself to become a better person. 



> I also wonder how being with his family and old friends for 5 days will affect things. I guess I'm just having a bad day today, but I feel like this is going nowhere. And yes, my expectations are to blame for how I'm feeling. I am just venting, sometimes we need to, it makes me feel a bit better to get it out of my system.


Yep I agree--sometimes this place can be like a journal, and you just get stuff off your chest. Other times it can be supportive and encouraging. My guess is that his family may enable him in his bad choices because they make bad choices of their own, and in a way they support continuing the dysfunction. I would just suggest that you and your hubby have a chat beforehand and reach some agreement that works for both of you--maybe he texts you in the morning when he wakes up and at night when he goes to bed and tells you about the day and takes that time to reassure you he is thinking of you. My point is that you two arrange what works for both of you: it's not embarrassing to him and it's reassuring to you. See what I mean?


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## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

cmf I just wanted to stop by and say (((hugs))) you are a strong women and dont forget about that.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Finally! YAY! So give us an update on your thread will ya? And btw, thanks for stopping by to encourage cmf. As you know, it's hard during the "waiting for it all to work out" stage.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Finally- I would really love an update too! Good to hear from you!


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## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Affaircare & CMF I updated in this thread http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/14887-update-1-week.html 

& I am going to be posting another update in a few  I can say I have never been happier....neither of have. I took all the skills I got here and applied them and all the places 'marriage builders' and stuff Affaircare said and put it too work and I am say it is working and the reaction/results I am getting are so amazing I feel like I need to come back here and tell people to keep there head(or nose) above the water because it can/get be better. 

Neither of us of us want to go down that path again and are willing to fight for our marriage. I hate to say this but the 7wk separation was good for us....I never thought I would say that but it was. After almost 12 years together I wish we wouldn't of disconnected and had this happen BUT it did and we have to grow from it and learn and make sure it never happens again.


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## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

How you doing CMF??


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Trying to reconcile, very slow process, lots of setbacks for us. My H still not living at home, but living alone. We have fallen back on old patterns since spending more time together. Not sure if we will live together again as a family. It will be 10 months of separation the end of August. Still hopeful , as we both are trying and not giving up. Please let us know how you are and what you and H have been doing to get back on track.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

What kind of old patterns?


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Arguing- our approaches with each other are definite love extinguishers- I use disrespectful judgements, he uses angry outbursts. Most of it revolves around my lack of trust with him. He seems to feel no matter what he does I will never trust him again, I feel that he is unwilling to earn back the trust because it takes a lot of effort and time. I somewhat understand this as I too am having a hard time changing my communicating with him.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

That is progress. You have identified the issues. Can you love bank some more? What are his needs. You are so strong. Has he been meeting some of your needs? Have you identified your top two or three for him? Clearly he knows that trust is one of them. Are there any others he can work on?


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

He is meeting a few needs but not my need for transparency- he seems to be fighting it and right now that is really important. I think it's a pride thing with him- he feels controlled by having to be that open. That's what we are battling right now, and the financial aftermath of supporting 2 households for all this time.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

CMF~

You know me...down to brass tacks. There are a few things in your responses here that concern me deeply. You write that you two are falling back into old patterns and when asked what patterns you write:


> Arguing- our approaches with each other are definite love extinguishers- I use disrespectful judgements, he uses angry outbursts. Most of it revolves around my lack of trust with him. *He seems to feel no matter what he does I will never trust him again*, I feel that *he is unwilling to earn back the trust because it takes a lot of effort and time*. I somewhat understand this as I too am having a hard time changing my communicating with him.


Maybe it's just me, but it seems that you can articulate the issues fairly well. On your side of the street are disrespectful judgments and lack of trust...and it's displayed to him via unspoken expectations, assumptions, and controlling behavior. On his side are extinguishers too. But what concerns me is that you are an intelligent, competitent, skilled woman, and you are clearly able to itemize the old patterns and love extinguishers you are doing, and yet rather that focus on yourself, your side of the street, and stopping what you know is harming (and at this point, literally destroying) your marriage, instead you choose to yet again do a disrespectful judgement in public! When you write: "He seems to feel no matter what he does I will never trust him again" unless he has stated this to you in so many words, you are assuming what he is thinking and feeling, and making a judgement based on your assumption. When you write: _"I feel that he is unwilling to earn back the trust because it takes a lot of effort and time"_ you are making a judgment about WHY he is or is not doing something based on your own assumptions and expectations, unless he has specifically said that's why he's not willing to earn back your trust. 

So you are able to very accurately identify your own issues and what you need to change and do better, and yet rather than concentrating on YOU and the love extinguishers you still continue to choose to do...you place your focus on him, what he is or is not doing, and do right here in public exactly what the issue is in private! 

One of the BIG, ENORMOUS hurdles you are going to have, cmf, is that his bad behavior and his bad choices are not justification for you to continue to make bad choices. In the instance of "Worst Case Scenario" and he truly is still carrying on a blatant and wanton affair, the fact of matter is that he will not be won back to the family and you by continuing to choose Love Extinguishers...and nope, you do not do the extinguishers "...because he..."!! That is a choice you make. So if he IS carrying on a covert affair, how would you win him back? By paying him back love extinguisher for love extinguisher? I know that you know better than this. If he IS carrying on an affair, we tell everyone to stop looking at their spouse and start looking at themselves! When a person is in Plan A/Carrot and Stick... what is the carrot part? That's right--even when a disloyal is ACTIVELY ENGAGED IN A BLATANT AFFAIR we tell people to look at what they may have contributed and stop that! End all Extinguishers. That does not mean that their disloyal will end all extinguishers or be fair or even earn back their trust instantly. It means, "You can not change him. Change YOU."

To point out another few instances right in public where you engage in a disrespectful judgement, you wrote: 


> He is meeting a few needs but not my need for transparency- *he seems to be fighting it *and right now that is really important. *I think it's a pride thing with him- he feels controlled by having to be that open*...


Do you see right there that you decide he is fighting it and even tell us here in public why YOU THINK he's fighting it? You assume what he's thinking and feeling and make judgements about him based on what you have decided, and they may or may not be accurate at all! 

So in summary, do I think what he's doing is acceptable, reasonable, faithful or Love Kindling? *HECK NO!!* But he's not here, to explain his side or tell us what he thinks and feels and why. You are. And you have specifically itemized the things you are STILL choosing to do and specifically not choosing to stop...things that you know for a fact are destroying your marriage. Honestly what it comes down to is this: are you going to stop justifying your bad choices with his bad behavior and actually change? Or are you going to continue the bad choices that you KNOW are killing your family and blame his actions? Which means more to you: avoiding personal responsibility or saving your family? In the end, that's what it comes down to. 

I'm thinking you should decide if you want to work on you and end those behaviors that you were so easily able to determine and list--WHETHER HE DOES OR NOT. If you do want to end the actions that are killing the love in your marriage, you will have to take personal responsibility for your choices and actually work hard to not do it, regardless of him and his actions. So think about this and decide what you intend to do. Are you going to stop doing the love extinguishers and hold yourself responsible for making the choice to END those behaviors?


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

AC-
I should have included that he actually did say to me "No matter what I do you will never trust me and there is nothing I can do about it". He has also said "You will never be able to forgive me so why should I try". He has been making a lot of generalized statements to me about what I will never be able to do. He usually says these things when he engages in some form of dishonest behavior. I have calmly said to him that yes, there are things you can do to earn back trust and gave examples of what I needed from him. He has told me that it shouldn't take all this effort to do these things, I should just let it go, he would not be controlled the rest of his life . I have requested that if he tells me he will be doing something or is somewhere he actually be accountable for it. If his plans change, to let me know. 

I do know that I can not MAKE him do these things. I did make verbal requests and I hoped he would want to honor them. If he does not want these things, then it confuses me as to why he would say he does. We were already separated, our year is up soon, why not just continue what he was doing.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

It sounds like you feel that this in some way relieves you from personal responsibility for your choices. So just to be sure, how does this make any difference to what I wrote again? 

Is it that it's not a disrespectful judgement if he said it to you? Please reread what he said: "No matter what I do you will never trust me and there is nothing I can do about it" and "You will never be able to forgive me so why should I try?" Those are said in a pretty mean way, but by the same token those are messages of giving up hope and feeling like enough is never enough too. 

So it still seems to me that the focus here is going to be deciding if you want to work on you and end the behaviors that you itemized so easily--WHETHER HE DOES OR NOT. If you do want to end the actions that are killing the love in your marriage, you will have to take personal responsibility for your choices and actually work hard to not do it, *regardless of him and his actions.* 

Why would you do this, you wonder? Well taking an honest look at yourself, would you want to be with a person like you? Would you feel loved by a person like you? If the answer is "no" then some changing needs to be done!


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## Neverwouldhave guessed (May 5, 2010)

AC -

Help me see how cmf is making disrepectful judgements in her recent post. I thought a disrespectful judgement would be something like "He'll never get a good job, because he is too lazy." 
1. Who gets to decide what a "good job" is...not me.
2. Who gets to decide what "lazy" is...not me.

But how is her restating his comments/thoughts disrepectful? Just trying to figure this out....


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

A DJ is when you assume what the other person thinks or will say. That's not fair, as they're not here to defend themselves, nor is it helpful, because it keeps you from actually ASKING and getting the truth - which is rarely what we think it is.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

However we are dealing with disloyal dizziness. So if what they are saying is from the fog how does one help us move forward. I agree it is good to ask, but unless the fog has cleared what they say should be ignored. That is the nub of the problem.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

True, but you still should not be making decisions based on assumptions of what you think they want. If you don't know, don't do anything. No one said this is easy!


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

Here's a clarification that might help here. 

CMF wrote:



> He seems to feel no matter what he does I will never trust him again, I feel that he is unwilling to earn back the trust because it takes a lot of effort and time.


If all she had written was 'He seems to feel that no matter what he does, I will never trust him again' there would be no Disrespectful Judgment. This would simple be a guess that CMF was making regarding her husband's actions. This is how it appears to her.


The disrespectful judgment comes in the next phrase:

"I feel that he is unwilling to earn back the trust _because_ it takes a lot of time and effort." (Italics mine.)

First, note that this isn't a feeling at all - this is a thought: "I think he is unwilling to earn back the trust because...etc."

She may _feel_ frustration or despair, or anger - whatever here, but it is very important to note this is an actual THOUGHT, a belief. 

In this sentence, CMF (most likely out of habit) is determining the REASON for her husband's action. She is interpreting his meaning without getting the reason from him. 

While it is true that if there is any fog involved, he may not give her an entirely straight reason - at least that reason would be his. And in allowing him to give his reason, she would thereby open the door to further discussion - possible solutions, etc.

But instead, by determining that he is doing X because of Y (regardless of his reasons) she has predetermined the outcome of the conversation - and not only that, but she has assigned a negative reason to his action: he is lazy, no good, and uncaring. 

While any or all of those reasons MAY be true, it is also reasonable to understand they may not be the reason at all. For all we know, he may think that even if he did this - there would be one more hurdle - and one following that - and one following that, ad infinitum - the end result is that all HE sees is an unending chain of tasks he must be doing. 

Of course that in itself might be a disrespectful judgment on his part- but that is HIS problem with which to deal. (Just because HE might also use that particular Love Buster does not mean it is justifiable on CMF's part.)

Does that clear things up at all? Or did I, in my usual way, make it 10 times harder to follow?


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

CMF,
We miss you!
I was just thinking about how these WS guys find "the field". How does he end up with a gal with kids? Look at his other options. Let me paint with broad brushstrokes. First, an older single woman. How does she get to 45ish and still be single? Issues or bad relationships? But she is likely independant. If she is successful, she likes fine dinners and long weekends at the spa. Can your H afford that? But that is fun. Divorced woman without kids. I would say pretty similar circumstances. Likes and wants to be pampered and more than a few trinkets thrown her way. Single woman with kids. Takes what she can get. Any date out is a time to be treasured. Small trinkets are better than no trinkets. Married with kids: Affection and attention might be all she gets from the other man. So the OM gets off really easy. No expectations. No effort. 
Does this make sense? I would be interested to hear your analysis.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Well, It's been a while since I've posted and unfortunately my news is not positive...
I began the process of reconciliation in June of this year after a 8 month separartion, with my Husband living with another woman. 
We were working through issues over the summer and he moved home the end of August. I thought the contact was over and he agreed to transparency, no contact and to recommit to the marriage. 
At the time, my main concern was his lack of willingness to spend one on one time with me . Quickly after coming home the same patterns started up- secretive with the phone( erasing history daily), unable to reach by phone, some unexplained absences at night, picking fights with me. I caught him twice in a lie- about finances and whereabouts about a week ago and yesterday while he was in the restroom, saw an incoming text from someone that said" Rise and Shine my love", I checked his history and the same number had called several times the night before but everything else had been erased.

He denied eveything, got angry at me, stated " You will never trust me no matter what I do or say". I asked him on the spot to call the number in front of me and he angerly refused and said "It's complicated" then left the house. I called the number and got a generic voicemail- I left a message explaining who I was and that I had seen the text message and my husband was living at home with his family saying that he was commited to our marriage. I called his grandfather, mother and sent his boss an e-mail stating I had discovered him continuing to be involved with another woman despite being home with his family and that he was choosing to continue his affair. 
He came home a few hours later stating it was all a big mistake, the wrong number, someone trying to frame him,etc... He would not admit to anything. I told him he would need to leave as he was continuing an affair and that in order to return home he would need to end all contact, be 100% honest and transparent and be committed to rebuilding the marriage. He said he had already done all those things and he would not admit to something he did not do. I told him to get his stuff and leave- he did, it only took a minute, as he never moved in more than his clothes
He had to pick up the kids later and acted as though nothing had happened, would not tell me where he was living. When he dropped off the kids he was back to being angry and saying to me " I hope you're happy".
SOO, I am back to square one. I am pretty much numb. It all happened quickly and I am preparing to deal with the affair fog, evil twin, and disloyal dizziness again. At least I am in a better place and used to him being gone - we have been separated now for almost a full year. Why he would put us thrugh this I don't know. He was free, he easily could have stayed with her . Why come back at all. Why was she willing to stick around with him living at home. 
I really dont have the money to hire someone to get all the proof and put it in his face and honestly he would probably continue to deny it to everyone.
The affair simply went deep underground, I can not even imagine how they thought this would work out.
I am sad for my children and dread the further pain they will go through.
Sorry such a disappointing post. Many of you were rooting for us and supportive and I really appreciated it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm sorry. So sorry.


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## Neverwouldhave guessed (May 5, 2010)

One thing I know for sure, we have found and shown strength when we did not feel like we had any. Continue to find your strength. You have given him a chance when many would not. Now take care of you and the kids. Yes, a rough road ahead. You can do this!!!!!!!!! You deserve better, and better will come.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

CMF,
I am thinking positive thoughts for you. Now you know why he was struggling so much. That relationship is not going to last. He is making a big mistake and he knows it. Stay strong woman.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Thanks everyone! I am preparing a Plan B letter to him- trying to figure out how to handle childcare issues without having to interact with him. Right now I am too angry and hurt to speak with him. In the past 24 hours, any interaction we have had has been awful. I need no contact.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

CMF, I agree with everyone who's said I'm so sorry it has come to this. As you know, Tanelorn and I were really pulling for you two and had some hope it would work out. By the same token, this discovery really does explain a lot and if nothing else you're no longer in "limbo." 

Just so you know, I don't think you are acting hastily or re-acting out of anger or anything like that. You've been clear and consistent and kept trying to work the plan, and really the plan is very clear: 1) NO CONTACT and it's *his* job to prove to you and show you he's not in contact...not your job to police him. He has to stop HIMSELF from contacting. 2) TRANSPARENCY on both your parts but I do believe you're pretty willing to show him the true you and even show him say journals that are honest but not that complimentary. Now he needs to be the one to make the move to be open with you and demonstrate that ability for a while. 3) COMMITMENT by both of you to work on *whatever* issues may come up (personal or relationship) and face them honestly and deal with them. There's no shame in having a personal issue--heck none of our parents are perfect and I'm sure as a parent that I haven't been perfect either, so we all grow up with some issue or other--the problem comes when you realize you have an issue and won't do the work to address it. 

So I heartily and thoroughly back your decision for Plan B/Consequences. I know you're hurting too because you hung in there and gave him chance after chance. Just know that whatever happens, you aren't really alone because we are all here with you.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

Ditto AC and T. You are the best!!


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

I am preparing for Plan B. It should not be too difficult as my Husband is now refusing to speak to ME- saying he is not saying anything until he figures out who sent the text to his phone, who is trying to get him in trouble with me, saying that everyone is lying to him and he doesn't trust anyone including me.
All my fears of him having mental issues are just about confirmed now. I have no idea where he is living , I sent him one text today about the boys' schedule and he did not reply.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Until he finds out...just more deflection. meh


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

So if he is saying he is being set up does that mean that he wants to be with you? If he is being set up look bad in your eyes then he must want to make it work. He is still confused. Is the supprot orderstill in place? Has he made any payments recently. If he was in my state he has to pay unless the order is changed. If you want to shake him up, maybe just set a hearing date on the arearage. 
I haven't given up on either of you. But you know I feel your pain and anxiety. 
Not ready for divorce? Then either ignore him or move to Plan B. He is acting immature. (Don't they all?) But I there is a silver lining. He is claiming it is not all about him. And he is not blaming you. Could the OW be busting his chops becuase she is ticked?
Where is he?


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Tunera- Not sure what you meant ..until he finds out about Plan B?

IANTOO-He has actually made all payments since June.

I had to see him at my son's game tonight. He was very nice,set up a chair for me to watch the game, called me on the way home to thank me for something, still acting as though nothing has happened. I fought the urge to completely ignore him and was civil. No idea where he is staying. He refuses to speak to me about anything other than the kids, not that I even tried to say anything to him. Plan B should be ready soon, I am predicting he will probably cut his losses and set up house again with her, he seems fine with no contact already- no pressure. He told the kids he is not coming home again.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

Can I think about this for a while? How are you feeling now? Need to vent? I feel very badly about all of this.


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## Neverwouldhave guessed (May 5, 2010)

I swear, we are married to twins!!!!!! My H is a master of shutting down and trying to make me think I have done something wrong, or that he has been wronged somehow. Both of them need to grow up.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> Plan B should be ready soon, I am predicting he will probably cut his losses and set up house again with her, he seems fine with no contact already- no pressure. He told the kids he is not coming home again.


Don't put too much stock in what is going on right now. Plan B is time consumptive: over time, things will become more and more apparent - what is gone, what he can't do, child support, lack of CMF filling in for him, etc.

Right now, he feels free - hopping and skipping around having the time of his life: reality has not yet set in. This will pass.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Feeling low today. For the last 2 months , I had a husband helping me with the routine of childcare for 2 working parents. I am back to doing it myself, he has not even asked how I was getting it done, or if he could see them. I KNOW this it to be expected. Basically, once I busted him he moved on to Plan B without skipping a beat. My exposure basically did nothing, I tried to call his mother one more time and she is not taking my calls. I feel he is not speaking to me at all now because he wants to pretend he didn't just do what he did. I am just venting. I so want to let him have it, but it would do no good at all. He has already forgotton what it was like when reality set in the last time it would appear.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

Remember, his tool of preference is to pretend nothing is going on (covering his eyes means he is invisible!) He will keep this up as long as it looks like it will work - if he simply avoids you for a while, you'll forget it all and get back to doing what he wants (he assumes). Don't make that possible for him.

Stay your course.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

I am trying. I'm pretty emotional right now and taking everything personally and I'm trying to snap out of it. I feel really stupid for giving him the benefit of the doubt when all the signs were clearly there. I was just too wrapped up in wanting it to work out. 
He just called the boys a moment ago, just asking them about school , no mention of anything else. Did not ask to speak to me at all. I wish I could stop letting it get to me right now.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

So have you gotten everything in order for your formal Plan B? Have you gotten your letter written? Have you found an intermediary other than your lawyer (because trust me, if he has to have HIS lawyer call YOUR lawyer, that's $400 to tell you the boys didn't pack socks)? Have you taken care of the business end of things like getting the boys' after-school care all set? 

If so, I say get that Plan B officially going. My hope is that having something proactive to do will help a little with the emotions, but bear in mind that this week is going to be a toughie for you. The first week of disentangling is really a hard one--and lotioned tissues really are best or you'll chap your nose.

(((hug))) We're here CMF.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Well, my youngest son started crying at dinner because his Daddy left home again and he wanted to make him a picture, thinking he would have stayed . I had a cry over that.
Shortly after this happened , my husband called for me. He basically said he wanted to come home and would prove to me he was not having an affair and had cut off all communication and contact with his former"roommate". I see this as a stalling tactic of his and am prepared that this will not happen. Not sure how he will prove this to me anyway. I once again spelled out what he would need to do to come home. I let him know I had discovered some debts he had accured while we were separated that he had neglected to tell me about and that he had lied to me when we first separated about where he was living. He did ask me about helping with the kids after school. He said he kept his appointment with a therapist today and I told him I did not beleive him without verification. I let him know he needed to sign papers with his lawyer and he had one week to do it( free trade agreement with the house). I'm thinking about giving him one week to show me proof and then start Plan B. I have finished the letter, will use a notebook with the kids and am still trying to find someone to use as a go between for us. 
I really dont beleive in using medications, but I may reconsider as my emotions are all over the place today and I need to just not think about this anymore.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

CMF - first thing - it's wise to stay away from the meds - you are in a position to see how bad this is. Try St. John's Wort instead. Works wonders in a peaceful, gentle way. It's ok to have the emotions - even to share them with your kids (as long as you don't use the kids a a means to unload, etc.)

Second: when you state what you need for him to come home: are you using what we suggest? Over time we've found that to be the most effective three conditions: if he is serious, he will willingly do all three.

Third, you are doing quite well, considering what you are dealing with. Stay away from threats, instead, make requests, with explicitly declared routes you will take depending on what he freely chooses.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

Calm down. He didn't call you because he wants to leave. He called you cause he wants to stay. No love busters please. Let him come home. Tell him you are glad he is home. Try your best to make him feel welcome. Take some deep breaths. Get back on here and vent to us and not him. What did he say exactly and what was his tone when he said it.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Well, I am calmer now. No medications needed. Took the dogs for a walk to wear them out. While I didn't make threats, I did make demands of the 3 required things needed to come home ( I know , not good, but I did stay pretty calm). I am preparing for him not following through with his actions as his recent history with follow through is about zero. He claims he is living with a cook (male) who works at the bar his former "roommate" works at. Not really seeing how he is having no contact with her if this is even true. It never ceases to amaze me how he can choose to live like this. Should I give this any time before starting Plan B or just start now?


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I politely disagree a little with my esteemed colleague, IANTOO...a little. At this point, your hubby has fairly reliably demonstrated that his words and his actions do not match. Thus I would encourage you to not engage in Love Extinguishers--that's true. And I would encourage deep breaths--also very sound advice. 

However, I would show him that there IS a way home but that this time around he will have to show ACTIONS FIRST. We've already tried believing promises and that's not working (and may have been a stall tactic or denial or who-knows-what). Also don't we almost always suggest to people: "Do not make a decision while you are all emotional. Put off the decision until you can think clearly, and then make a plan and execute the plan." Right? Same here. 

Here's the way I see it. He has *SAID* he wanted to come back before, and then followed that up by being unwilling to end all communication, unwilling to be completely transparent, and unwilling to commit to ACTIONS. As long as a human being is alive, there is hope of change! So I'd suggest that you let him know that he has the option to convince you he means it by ACTING on his WORDS. When his words and actions match, and match for a while--then at that time you'd be willing to believe him but until then you remain neutral at best. Then do not listen to one word coming out of his mouth but instead look to his ACTIONS for what he really means. If he actually goes to counseling and proves it...good. If he makes appointments on his own and goes...good. If he initiates working with you on a No Contact Letter and ending all contact EVER...good. On the other hand if he doesn't act, then you know it was just more smoke and mirrors and more stalling. 

Does that make sense, CMF? And any time you can't figure out what to do or whether to believe it, just go back to that: do words and actions match. When they do, it is trustworthy. When they do not, it is a lie.

Regarding Plan B/Consequences, I see no reason to not go into it now. Even when you go into Consequences stage, there has to be a way for the disloyal spouse to indicate to you that they are willing to end the affair and work on the marriage right? We even have a link on our site about "How to Tell When it's Time to End Consequences Stage." In this case, if he is deadly serious, he will work on his issues on his own, end contact on his own, etc. 

So if you have everything prepared, I see no reason to put off going into Plan B/Consequences. Let him have the burden of proving it to you now. That's reasonable.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

IANTOO- I cant let him just come home because he wants to, it is past that point now. He is not being honest or transparent and he is still having contact. My big mistake in letting him come home to begin with was that I did not see proof he had cut off all contact because he continues to deny everything, he was not being 100% transparent with me( he only said he would and then refused to), and he never recommited to the marriage( made excuses as to why he "couldn't" and did not follow through with actions discussed in marriage coaching). This cycle will keep continuing until he takes action to back up his words. Right now his words are meaningless.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Exactly what I was thinking AC! I really do think that he is just saying these things to stall things and buy himself more time to either cover his tracks or hope I will let it go.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

Mea Culpa. I'm with you. But I think he will make progress. Carrot/stick? Is he suffering withdrawal. Is he riding the rollercoaster. There are relapses. He's an addict. You are both moving forward. I know AC has been closely involved. So AC has a good sense about what H is about. I'm just suggesting he needs a little slack.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

I'm moving out of Plan A, I will continue to be pleasant as we are deep into the boys' sports and cub scouts right now and we will see each other quite a bit unless he chooses to disappear. He knows what is needed to come back, now he has to do the work or not.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

CMF~

Just a note. You are moving into Plan B/Consequences which means *NO CONTACT*. Now stop and think about this one second. When you ask your hubby for No Contact from the OW, does that mean he can continue seeing her at sports or events where they used to hang out and see each other? Or does he have to make drastic changes to himself and his life so that he does not talk to her, call her, email her, work with her or ever, *EVER *see her again? 

Based on your answer above, what does "NO CONTACT" mean when you tell him you want NO CONTACT until he is able to demonstrate (with his actions) that he has ended all affairs, etc? It means not seeing each other at boys' sports and cub scouts, that's what! You will need to make arrangements to not be at the sports when he is or be on the other side of the field or something. If you do not...if you continue to contact him by seeing him at those events, you will have a situation like flower's in which the fog stays thick and you spin your wheels in the mud. 

So contact the coaches and the cub scout leader, indicate that you need to discontinue your current habits and state factually why, and ask if they have suggestions for something else you can do maybe. For example, if you usually take the boys to practice and stay--take them to practice MWF and he takes them T-TH, or take them and sit far, far away, etc. If you usually go to the games, arrange to sit either on the other side (you can be their spy LOL) or away from where you normally would, etc. Same for scouting. If you're a den mom, you may have to drop out because you have to arrange NO CONTACT with your hubby in the full extent that you expect him to have NO CONTACT with the other woman. It means that there is a complete lack of contact including seeing each other even from a distance. He needs to realize that if he continues as he is, he will have absolutely NO INVOLVEMENT in your life whatsoever anymore. 

Okay?


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Wow, Didn't really think about it quite like that. I was thinking no engaging in any conversation- phone, text, e-mail, exchanges when he sees the boys . I really couldn't just not attend my sons games , that would upset them. My H is the coach. I can probably avoid the cub scout stuff. Should I wait till the end of the season then, mid November ? I can be far away at games. Let me think about this..


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Okay so if H is the coach, I recommend either taking the boys to the parking lot and waiting in the parking lot during practice, or let H take them to practice. He can pick them up from school, take 'em to practice, drop them off at the end of the driveway--he has no business talking to or seeing you. 

For the games, drop off the boys to "go be with the team" and you go as far away from their side as is reasonably possible. Let the boys know you'll be sitting "down at the goal line" and not near their dad. After the games either he drops the boys off at home (again at the driveway) or you tell them to come to you at the goal line so that you don't go by them. And don't act like snarky mom who doesn't want to be by other team parents--just associate away from and out of sight of your H. 

Until he decides to end the affair and put actions behind his words, he does not get the benefit of you looking all luscious in that jersey!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Your H seeing you at the games 'feeds' him his cake. Even if he can't talk to you, seeing you and being somewhat active together at the games is not giving him the full force of Plan B.

Normally I say that Plan B is final, for YOU to move on. But in your case I have hope that Plan B can get him to see what he's throwing away and help him hit rock bottom. But if he still gets to see you...it won't work. 

I know that sucks, but it is what it is. You're talking 6 more weeks before you do a real Plan B...IDK. I think that right NOW, when he's calling you, is when you have the best chance to have an effect on him by going completely dark.

Can you talk to your kids and explain to them what you're doing? Tell them you'll be in the car, but watching, something like that? If they understand that you're doing it in the hopes of getting their dad to understand, they may even heartily agree to it.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

My kids are hurting right now and I am their only real stability besides school. I may be able to just keep repeating my conditions and avoiding any other discussions with him for awhile longer. My parents can go to some of the games for me . I'm still thinking about this....I avoided 8 calls from him today already and refused to make plans with him for the week-end with our son stating until you are ready to do the things it would take to return there will be no family time, he could just see his son. He basically has just been making promises to do things, no actions at all on his part. I know I need to start Plan B now, I'm just having a hard time with the kid's activities part of it. I work and have to miss some stuff anyway and they get excited when I do get to come. They are kinda young to understand what I would be doing( 6 and 10). Still debating...


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

So I have an idea. Without giving away particulars and keeping things private, can you give us the different schedules and maybe the folks here can make some suggestions. 

For example, during my ex's affair, we owned a business together, but after school I would pick up the kids and work from home. I took them to practices and stayed for the whole practice. Games were I think Wednesday nights or weekends. I would go to the games and either stay in the car or you know how there's always a gang of parents at the game? I'd stay on ONE end of the gang of parents, and as best as possible keep my ex on the OTHER end of the gang of parents. And yep, on the occasion I'd take my lawnchair and move away out by the right field line just for a breather. 

And just so you know, I do think a 6yo and 10yo can sort of understand. You can tell them that you love their dad and want to work it out, but that you believe dad has a girlfriend and you told their dad that you want to be the only one he loves. You think moms and dads should only love each other and not other people, so since you disagree, right now it kind of hurts you to talk to their dad and see him. BUT that you do hope their dad will break up with his girlfriend and some day show that he loves you. 

If you don't talk to them about this some, CMF, they will think of much worse things on their own--like somehow it's their fault. They also likely have questions, and right now who can they ask? They are very young but they are old enough to understand feeling hurt or feeling sad, so just tell them that you feel sad because you love only their dad and no one else and it hurts your feelings that it seems like he loves another lady.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I agree wholeheartedly with Affaircare. Your kids are NOT too young, and her example is perfectly age-appropriate for them to hear. I would also add one thing: let some good friend in on what you're doing, hopefully someone who also attends the games. Ask her to stay with you and be your go-between in case he tries to approach you. She will literally stand between him and you, allowing you time to leave the area.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

For those who are reading along and maybe heading there themselves (*cough* JAR, land, IANTOO *cough*) I would like to point out that the NO CONTACT Consequences Plan can be just as hard on the loyal spouse as the disloyal spouse to enforce. 

Up to this point, the loyal and disloyal have had their lives intertwined. Up to this point, the disloyal's behavior and affair have basically caused ongoing drama's and traumas. Up to this point, the loyal's body has been living on adrenaline to try to deal with all the drama and trauma. So ending all contact is going to be like going through withdrawal for the loyal spouse, because in real life it *is* withdrawal. 

You will be withdrawing from the chemical adrenaline, and you can tell you have experienced an adrenaline "overload" for a long time if you feel like this:

A compulsion to get busy, be more productive, or be stimulated with noise or activity
Emptiness, boredom, and depressed mood
Feelings of guilt about being idle
Irritability or loss of temper
Worrying about work that needs to be done
Fidgetiness or restlessness (e.g., pacing, finger or foot tapping, fast gum chewing

Once you begin to actually have NO CONTACT with your disloyal spouse, you will first be disentangling your life from theirs. Previously, you may have been controlling your disloyal and not known it...and now you have an irresistible urge to contact them and tell them what to do! Or they may have been controlling you and you didn't know it...and now you feel lost and like you don't know how to make a decision on your own. Previously you two had life set up so that maybe you had similar friends, similar stores, similar places you went, etc. and now you'll need to begin changing all that. And when you have that irresistible urge to contact them...you need to control your own self and not do it! 

Next you will also experience some emotional withdrawal. Maybe you depended on your disloyal, even if you depended on them to be dishonest, it was an emotional connection of some kind. Now that's gone. You will definitely miss their smile, laugh, hugs, etc. This will leave you emotionally vulnerable (and this is why I caution folks in NO CONTACT Consequences Stage to only go to same sex support groups or worship). You will go through depression, lonely, isolation, and grief--but likewise you'll also experience wonderful peace at not having that drama in your life; and small joys and self-accomplishment. 

Finally there will be physical withdrawal. Remember for the past several months you've been living with the dramas and traumas that made for adrenaline overload. Now the "emergency" is removed and your body is used to running on adrenaline high--so you're going to feel it. Symptoms include headaches (could turn to a migraine), serious fatigue, sluggishness, feeling "bluesy" and down, boredom, agitation, crankiness, fidgety feeling, restlessness. For me I can remember distinctly feeling like I was too tired to lift my arms--like soul exhausted--and it was so darn quiet it felt boring. One day I was sitting in my living room thinking, angrily, "My god this is so boring! Nothing is happening!" and then I realized--this is what PEACE felt like!  It was quiet and still and relaxing! OMG I had no idea! 

So CMF (and you others as well) I know you are afraid to do this, and I know it is hard. I'm going to be blunt and ask that to some degree you trust me. It will not be easy, I won't kid you, but it will be the fastest, best way for you to recover and grow into a healthy, happy, loving human being. I *KNOW* for a fact you can do it. And I just want to point out something that may give you some level of compassion for your disloyal. You know how you are afraid and don't really want to do it? I mean..you do but you don't? THIS-- this withdrawal and changing everything and loss and all of it is exactly what you are asking your disloyal spouse to go through in order to honor their vow, stay with you, and rebuild the marriage. Daunting, isn't it? 

Here's the big difference. I know you have the courage within you to do it. Take the leap off the cliff.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

I will talk to my children and include everything stated above- I like that explanation . Basically, I will attend their functions the way I did it in the Spring when we were not speaking- pretty much like AC described it above- right after he was served papers and became verbally abusive . I hung out with the parents, he was on the field, we did not speak . My parents came to almost all the games with me, so he avoided us completely. I am realizing how hard not speaking to him will be . I admit I kinda want to wait until I get those papers signed, I'm scared when I go no contact he may refuse to sign them, and I really need to get them soon.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

It doesn't matter if he refuses, you can still do what you need to do.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

I've been thinking of you all morning and I think this is a phase of withdrawal. We should not be dealing with high expectations. He is looking for an excuse to relapse. He is not going to cnnect for some time. He's got to clear his head. Likely to be months. Sober and dry is what you need. He's still drinking. Not good. But relapse is to be expected. I was just over at JAR's thread saying the same thing. I think you are being premature and your expectations are too high. A few months ago I remember someonelse going throught this phase on a thread. It is another bad time. Read some more about drug withdrawal or go over to the Harley site. I think a review of withdrawal will restore your confidence. Can you get him off the sauce? Can you talk to him about that? Maybe AA would help?


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

He is binge drinking and I have been down this road too many times to know that only he can stop it. He turns to alcohol during stressful times and to releive guilt. I see no signs that this is withdrawal, as he is still involved in the affair and lying to me pretty much about everyhting. I have taken the steps to expose and took another one today with the management of the bar this all started at. I expect big fallout from it. I have laid the groundwork for Plan B today on the phone with him and as I figured he puts the blame on me and stated by going no contact I was only hurting the kids . He told me all he cared about was the kids and I would not keep them from him. I am giving him the letter tonight. If this was withdrawal he wouldn't be in contact with her , he would be depressed because he wasn't seeing her or talking to her. I refuse to continue taking his verbal abuse and blame. I am dangerously close to not only not loving him anymore but hating him and his selfish behaviors.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Do you have an intermediary lined up?


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

He refuses to use anyone I suggested. I guess it will be the lawyers or the notebook.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Of course he does. That is HIS problem. All you are doing is informing him that YOU will no longer take his calls nor his emails. It's his choice what to do about it.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

cmf said:


> He refuses to use anyone I suggested. I guess it will be the lawyers or the notebook.


CMF, just so you know it doesn't matter if he refuses. Going to Plan B/No Contact is not about "working things out to agreement with him" because if it was, you two would agree to get other people out of your marriage and end the drinking!  So going into No Contact is more like a statement of what you intend to do--a statement of your boundary. You WILL NOT be accepting contact from him while he is in the affair and drinking. Period. You do not not need his permission or agreement to establish your personal boundary. Further, if he wants to contact you, <name> is the person from whom you are willing to accept messages. Period. 

See how it's not a request? You are stating what will work for you. You are stating what YOUR boundary is, and that has to do with YOU and not him. You don't need his agreement. Furthermore, it's not a demand because you are not forcing him to use that person. He is 100% completely free to decide to NOT use that person or try to contact you directly or try to use someone else. The natural consequence of that choice (not using the person) is that he will not have contact with you. See how free he is? 

So for the rest of the day today make sure you have a steady, regular visitation set up so that you two don't have to discuss it. "When I'm able to visit them" does not work and neither does "I'm withholding the boys from you until...." What would work is "Every Tuesday and Friday night the boys will be at the McDonalds on X street by 5pm for you to have dinner with. I will stay to see that you arrive and have them in your care, and then you can drop them at the driveway at bedtime" or "I will get the boys to practice on Tuesday and Friday nights and after practice they will be yours until bedtime. Please drop them off at the driveway." That way it's dependable and if he decides to ditch the boys or not show up, then that's HIS problem. Also you can decide what you want to do with your time and your life on Tuesday and Friday nights (for a few hours). 

Also make sure you have an intermediary lined up. It doesn't matter if he agrees or refuses, just have someone with whom you are comfortable and who is reasonable. For example "my mom" probably is not reasonable as he isn't likely to feel very comfortable using your mother; whereas, "our pastor" or "my neighbor friend, Sue" might be somewhat reasonable. 

Make sense? I'm reading your letter as we speak.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Well, it is done. Letter and notebook given. It was not well received and he claims he is not reading the letter.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Well he is an adult and can do as he pleases. From this point forward, we'll concentrate on some tactics to avoid his attempts to contact, okay? Most likely he will try to "continue like it's always been" and keep trying to contact you in the ways he usually does. For example, does he usually call or come over? That'll probably be how he'll try to contact now. So have a plan ready what you're going to do for both scenarios. 

If he calls, he'll likely try something like calling over and over and over and over and over and over and over (and over and over and over and over and over and over) in an attempt to get you to pick up the phone and say "WHAT!" LOL So if he does that, what will you do? Do you have caller ID? Can you mute the ringing? Can you turn the phone off or put if off the hook? 

If he comes over, he will likely try to come in, stand at the door, ring the doorbell over and over and over and over and over and over. What will you do? Is the door locked now? Can you and the boys take a night out just so there is no drama (like take them to McD's and a $2 movie)? Can you go to gramma and grampa's for an overnight visit? 

So just think on those things and be ready, and whatever happens we are here all day.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Yeah, its already starting. His rejection of the notebook has prompted him to leave a voice message that he 's just taking my son somewhere after his practice tonight. Of course we had plans and my son has an early game and will be exhausted and I have no idea when they will be back. This is what I was nervous about. I have caller id, call blocking and absolutely no problem calling the police on him if he shows up at the house- or calling my Dad.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

As luck would have it, a message did get through to you--this is contact. Next time, when you receive a voicemail, contact your intermediary (if there is such a person) and let THEM listen to the voicemail. 

To respond to this, you would contact your intermediary and have them communicate to your hubby that you and your son had plans and he is welcome to take your son out on another day when he arranges it ahead of time. As their parent you have the right to know where they'll be and when to expect them back, but as their parent you know he has the right to see them and you're happy to facilitate that. Have the INTERMEDIARY communicate this, not you. 

If he takes your son out without pre-arranging it, this would be a good item to document in the Daytimer calendar: "H took <son> out after practice and did not pre-arrange it. <son> and I had plans, and I did not know where they were or when they would return. H returned <son> at 9pm so <son> had no time for homework and had to get right to bed." 

Don't fall for it CMF. This is his trick to try to "get" you to communicate. HOLD YOUR GROUND.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Well, since Friday he has made no attempts for contact. He has used the notebook with the kids, and it has only been focused on them. He told the boys I kicked him out because I would never trust him and there was nothing he could do about it anymore. Lovely. I tried to explain to them that he could come home if he could be honest and give his love only to me. He signed the free trade agreement on Friday.
This Plan B stuff is hard, when only a little over a week ago we were living together . I hate missing my sons' games, I did not attend any of them this week-end. I'm trying to get in the mindset that it is over and move on. Hopefully this will get easier.
I did do the right thing? It just doesn't feel right to me, but neither did things before I discovered those texts. His lack of effort should tell me he doesn't want the marriage. 
I would love to hear from anyone else in a Plan B.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

You know it will get easier in a couple of days. Just hang in there. Do the things that gave you relief ealier this year. Vent here, vent with a friend. Do the things that keep your mind off him. Read, sing, exercise and be patient.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

cmf, there was a woman over at MB who Plan B'd her husband who was carrying on an affair with a coworker - all three worked at the same company! It was sure hell for her, watching her husband be a jackass at work. She carried on her Plan B for a year, I think. 

You can do whatever you need to do.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Question for the experts- How should I respond to( or should I ignore) a letter that was just given to me by my husband ( through the notebook) just a few minutes ago. It basically sounds like a counselor coached him through it. It outlines what he is doing to be honest ( avoiding the bar where the "roommate" works, keeping a record of where he goes each day), and what he is willing to do should he return home( show me all bills, show phone weekly without erasing for now, and leave out when home). In the letter he states he is severing all ties with his "roommate".

That being said, there has been no proof of any of this provided to me. I started Plan B one week ago and other than the first day he has not tried to contact me and I have not even laid eyes on him. It has been no contact at all. Should I put nothing in response in the notebook? He has failed to provide me with any financial support this month and I feel like saying something about it. Should I even acknowledge what he wrote?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What was in your Plan B letter?


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

No contact with any other woman-provide proof, 100% honesty about whereabouts, financial matters, cell phone- provide proof, fully commit to working on rebuilding our relationship- doing rather than saying, go to individual therapy ( show proof of this).

Once again, in the letter he says he is doing these things, but no actual proof. I basically dont know if I should respond or not.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I would since he says he is doing what you asked. I'd say: "We can meet to discuss this at X restaurant on Saturday, 5pm. Please bring a No Contact letter that you intend to send to OW; if we agree to reconcile, I will send it to her myself. Please bring the passwords to your phone and computers, written on a piece of paper. Please bring a receipt for a GPS device that I will expect you to install in your car for at least the next 6 months to help me deal with the insecurity I have encountered due to your affair. Please bring me the name and phone number of the counselor you have signed up with so I can call him/her and verify that you have an ongoing appointment for at least the next 6 months. Please bring the records of your whereabouts that you claim to be creating. And please bring a cashier's check for $XXX to cover the costs I've incurred of running OUR home for the past month. If you will do these things, and we can speak amicably about this at dinner, I will decide whether we will reconcile.'

You may want to consider also asking for either a polygraph before he comes home, or a post-nup agreement so he gives up everything if he strays again. If he's serious about coming home, he should have no problem doing either.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

I'm glad to see he isn't quitting. Is he willing to give you that one on one time?


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

CMF~

Since you have a couple of posts now about Plan B/No Contact, I'm going to take a quick moment and reply to a few things, okay? In your first post you wrote:



> He told the boys I kicked him out because I would never trust him and there was nothing he could do about it anymore.


 How did you find this out? Was it written in the notebook? If so, that is baiting you to get upset so he can say, "See? You're the one with the issues." This would not be appropriate to the notebook as that is intended for exchange of facts only (like doctor appointment, phone # for school, etc.) Was it from the boy? If so, then what you told them was spot on and you can tell them they don't need to worry--when dad tells them stuff like that, they have your permission to tell him, "Daddy that's between you and mommy." 

You wrote: 


> I hate missing my sons' games, I did not attend any of them this week-end. I'm trying to get in the mindset that it is over and move on.


 I would like to remind you of your goal here. Your goal is not divorce, nor is your goal to get over your hubby and move on. Your goal is to clearly show him just what life would be like with you meeting NONE of his needs, since in Plan A/Carrot & Stick you did meet some. Your secondary goal is to disentangle from the drama and continue to focus on you, yourself, your own issues, and work on being the very best CMF you can be without the distraction of infidelity and dishonesty drama. Okay? So you will not have to miss your sons' games forever--but giving yourself a clean break for a while is a good idea. 

In your next post you wrote: 


> Question for the experts- How should I respond to( or should I ignore) a letter that was just given to me by my husband ( through the notebook) just a few minutes ago.


 You are in No Contact. You gave him things to do in your No Contact Letter. You would contact him when those things in your letter are COMPLETED and by his actions he shows you that they are done. Are they done? If not, then No Contact. 



> It basically sounds like a counselor coached him through it.


 Just pointing out to you that this is a disrespectful judgment. You have no facts or reason to believe that your hubby is or is not seeing a counselor, and it's fairly disrespectful to think that your hubby would need someone to coach him on what to write. Now I point this out to you not to blame or be judgmental, but rather so you can practice catching yourself on these kinds of thoughts. Oh yeah, you may have the idea pop into your mind, but if you don't have facts to reasonable lead to that conclusion, then you are assuming. Okay? So try to catch those and maybe note if that's one of the Love Extinguishers that might have harmed your marriage. 



> It outlines what he is doing to be honest ( avoiding the bar where the "roommate" works, keeping a record of where he goes each day), and what he is willing to do should he return home( show me all bills, show phone weekly without erasing for now, and leave out when home). In the letter he states he is severing all ties with his "roommate".


 I personally believe this is :bsflag: and has two goals: a) to get the control back by stating the limits he is or is not willing to do (please note that he doesn't say "I'm willing to do what you need in order to return to the marriage"--it says "Here's what I will and will not do" and b) he is noticing/missing some of the needs you previously met and is trying to get you to return to "the old dance" by making promises. Nowhere does he say these things are already done or he's already doing them...just "if you go back to meeting some of my needs like you used to, I promise to do these things" 

So in summary, you said in your No Contact Letter that you could no longer have contact with him UNTIL THESE THINGS WERE BEING DONE AND DONE CONSISTENTLY: X, Y, Z. He is trying to tempt you back into contact by "promising" (not DOING) A and Z. So your proper response would be to wait until he starts doing X, Y, Z on his own and has done them for a while, thereby showing you he'll actually DO the work (not promise) and he'll do it consistently. Since that's not the case now...No Contact. 

Regarding this:


> He has failed to provide me with any financial support this month and I feel like saying something about it.


I have to admit that's one that just freaking gets my goat, when a parent walks away from their own children and leaves them of others to raise! RRRRRRRRR! However, again you are in No Contact. You do not contact him about the lack of support. You can document in your Daytimer Calendar (the one I told you to buy when you started Plan B/No Contact) that he agreed to pay Oct. 5th and has not paid--for each day he breaks a promise. And you can have your ATTORNEY address it with him or prepare legal papers so that the COURT enforces it upon his paycheck before he uses claims he doesn't have money. But YOU do not contact him about it. Contacting him about it would undermine your No Contact, and it would most likely result in a Love Extinguisher. 

Finally, regarding turnera's reply about meeting at X restaurant and her list of demands, I would respectfully disagree. First, your hubby is a very smart man, CMF--think about it. If he were not, how else would he have survived all this time? He is smart enough to actually DO the things in your No Contact Letter, and he's smart enough to learn how to be honest. He's smart enough to make counseling appointments and DO THE WORK if he really wants to change and figure out how to be transparent and emotionally intimate with you. Rather than making demands (which runs 100% contrary to our policy of Mutual United Understanding), give him the time to either choose to DO what he has to do to be part of your life or choose to continue to avoid everything and not be part of your life. Let his ACTIONS do the speaking for him--not the promises, okay?


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

AC- He did tell the boys the comment and I like your suggested statement to reply to them.

I summarized the letter, but it may help if you read the whole thing. I did speak with my attorney about the support. In the letter he said he did handle the money owed to the school on Friday( I can easily find this out) and he said he would be giving me some documentation on Sunday.

Basically he has had no contact other than the letter he gave me yesterday.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

IANTOO- He made no mention of doing anything to repair the marriage or end an affair in the letter.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

CMF~

Now that you've been in Plan B/No Contact for a little while I'd like to encourage you to keep going and keep your focus on these three things. They actually make Plan B/No Contact fairly easy: 

1) Restore peace in your home, your life, and the lives of your children. Part of the reason that Plan A is so hard and so exhausting (both physically and emotionally) is because the constant affair drama and behaving lovingly toward someone who treating you hurtfully creates a whirlwind. Physically it is adrenalizing and you're very often in that "fight or flight" feeling, and emotionally it's like being in a tornado or buffeted by a storm with emotions hopeful then hopeless, happy then extremely hurt, loving then devastated. This step is meant to restore some peace, calm and stability to your life and your children's lives. You can not control your hubby and hopefully one day he will join you in the peace, but by going to No Contact you can create a haven in your own home for you and the boys to have a safe place that is steady and consistent. Their lives are also in an uproar--so give them a place they can turn that makes sense and is stable. Now at first it may feel kind of boring and monotonous but that's okay--that feeling is PEACE. Enjoy it. 

2) Whenever something comes up that makes you wonder if you should respond on contact, it's really easy to answer: pull out your No Contact Letter and compare what you said you needed to what is going on. Are his actions showing you over time that a) He has written a No Contact Letter for the OW and given it to you? b) He has been transparent and honest? c) He has made the commitment to rebuilding an intimate marriage with you? If not... No Contact. It's pretty easy really! If he calls: "Are you ready to give me 100% of your affection and loyalty and show me that with your actions?" If not, click! Hang up. See how that makes it pretty easy to decide if you should make contact or not? Literally anything else--any other attempt at anything or suggesting anything else is just a trick to get you back in the dance "the way it was" and it's my guess that if your hubby is like most disloyals, he will try several tricks before he realizes you are serious. Most disloyals are self-centered while they are active in their affair, so it is highly likely he will try to get his needs met with whatever smoke and mirrors he has at his disposal to get them met. So stay consistent. Are his actions showing you he has already done whats in the letter? Are his actions showing you 100% of his affection and loyalty. If not, then no contact. 

3) This Step, Plan B/No Contact, is not about divorce, giving up or moving on. This step is just as much about reconciling as Plan A/Carrot & Stick! However, this step offers you (the loyal spouse) some protection from the ongoing harm of the affair and offers your hubby (the disloyal) a vivid picture of what real divorce would be like--with you meeting NONE of their needs and doing no kindlers. This step often results in the OP dumping the disloyal because it's no longer the "fun" of pursuing someone anymore and they had no real desire to "catch" someone....just play someone. Thus this step usually goes one of two ways: a) the disloyal has hardened their heart or is too prideful to admit they were wrong, and despite the fact they've lost so much and harmed themselves and their kids, they will not turn back -or- b) after the OP dumps them or after they lose all the needs the loyal was meeting, reality thumps them in the head and they realize the cost is too high, so in a demanding, arrogant attitude they try to negotiate their way back...not at all repentant in action but still trying to hold on to some dignity (like this affair wasn't a mistake--they "needed" it for themselves! ). 

So keep your eyes fixed on those three things, and I think you'll find Plan B/No Contact becoming almost enjoyable in a way. Up to this point you've basically been running your life, your sons' lives AND dealing with all the stress of the affair, and now all you have to do is deal with yourself and the boys! By comparison that's EASY--and a little peaceful relief for you. Allow your dear hubby time to struggle through it, struggle against it, and if he's going to--to gradually come to his senses. Oddly enough I have high hopes because I think he has some spark of wanting to come to his senses.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Thank you for that AC,it was just what I needed tonight


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm confused. Didn't he say he was doing what she asked for? If so, how is she supposed to verify it without meeting him?


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Ah turnera (and CMF)~

Good question! I can see where it would be confusing. As I understand it, CMF in her letter asked for the three things we recommend to people. Since we've written these out at length elsewhere, I'm going to be brief here: 1) A No Contact Letter to the OW (and active no contact); 2) Transparency and all that "seeing the true him" and honesty entails; 3) Commitment to work on issues in the marriage and in himself that may come up or be discovered. 

Prior to this, the issues had been 1) No admission of an affair so he would not/refused to write a No Contact Letter; 2) In many areas of his life he was not allowing CMF in or if he did, he would reveal the bare minimum, not true transparency; and 3) He was fully aware of work he needed to do and even agreed to do it and then just wouldn't do it. 

In his letter what he offered was: 
1) "She was just a roommate. I'm not writing a No Contact Letter but I will end all incidental contact with my roommate that I can." Do you see how that is not a firm stand on his side that his affair was wrong, a firm stand choosing CMF over the roommate, no completely ending ALL contact, EVER? 
2) "Since you're going to be a policeman about it, I'm offering to show you notes about where I've been, money I earned, and money I spent" but do you see how that isn't full transparency, how it is a promise and not yet done, and how it's not him opening himself and sharing himself intimately but rather reporting to someone who's policing him? To be transparent, he would be responsible for himself, for his choices, for the consequence of what he chose to do, and for repairing/making amends where possible--yet his response is to make CMF responsible, not himself Can you see that?
3) No mention whatsoever about commitment to HER, commitment to their marriage, or commitment to doing the work necessary to address his own personal issues. So do you see how this is really no change? He's still not willing to actually WORK or accept personal responsibility. What happened is that she said "These are the three things I require to be with me," and his reply was "This is what I'm willing to do and they are not what you require." 

You asked: 


> ...how is she supposed to verify it without meeting him?


 and this is also an excellent question! Here's how. Keeping a firm focus on the three things she requires, she holds firm to no contact. He tries several more tricks to get her to contact him and she does not give in. Finally he gets the message she means it, she's serious, and he's going to 100% lose her. Of his own accord, he decides he wants her in his life and he's going to do the three things she requires. Without saying, "I promise you I'll do them if you contact me" he just goes out and starts doing them. He writes a No Contact Letter using his own words, and gives it to her. He begins to include her in his thoughts and decisions--how will this impact my chances with CMF and how will it affect the boys? (Right now, it's pretty much "Who cares how it affects anyone else, I want to 'feel good' and right now!") He picks up the phone himself and goes to counseling. He remembers to go all by himself, and he gets his own butt there. He starts to realize he did some things that were harmful and takes responsibility for what he did--without blaming anyone else or justifying it. He begins to behave in a way that shows changes--oh it may not be a perfect attempt but the effort to change is clear. All of these things are evident by his ACTIONS and by the fact that he final respects what she requests. 

For a pretty long, clear list, here's our article on "How to Tell When it's Time to End Consequences Stage." I point out this whole long list because no one is going to get all those points all at once--and yet just by his ACTIONS I believe CMF (or any loyal spouse) could tell the difference between respectful disagreeing and desire to mutually work it out....and "more of the same" only with better promises.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ok, I know what's wrong. When I read what he wrote, I thought he said he DID write a No Contact letter. My bad!


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Well, I felt the need to update today as I see a few on here getting ready to start a Plan B.
I will have been in Plan B for 3 weeks as of Friday. The first day was rough, and really annoyed my husband. After not answering any of his calls the first day, he went silent . He told me he would not read my letter when I gave it to him. We have only communicated in a notebook and I only respond in it when it pertains to the children. He has written me 2 long letters in the notebook, basically saying he has changed and is willing to do what I asked of him to come home. He has shown me some proof of what he says. He started individual counseling and from what I can see has attended 4 sessions. He has not written a no contact letter and has not shown through his actions that he is committed to rebuilding the marriage. 
This past Sunday, he asked to speak to me. He said for me to just tell him what to do, because as far as he can tell he has done everything I asked him to do in the letter. I honestly think he beleives this . He stated that I was trying to control him through the kids and he was doing everything possible to please me, and he did not appreciate the ultimatium I gave him in my letter( I did no such thing). I briefly told him I only wrote out their schedules for him, I had not denied him any visitation, I was not communicating with him about anything other than the children until he was ready to do as I requested. I was only removing myself from his life, as I had explained in the letter. He asked me if he could start calling me each day to talk about things between us and I told him no. I needed him to do the things I requested and to show proof and action, not more promises. He calmed down and said he could do those things and then left.
He gave me support money today and showed me proof he was working. We did talk briefly about the children's Halloween plans. 
The first week of this was rough, but it is a bit more peaceful as I am getting use to things. Maybe he will start following through with his actions and really commit to rebuilding the marriage, I dont think he's there yet. Part of me feels he may just give up, as would be the easier thing to do . I can sense that he is wanting me to respond to the efforts he is making , but he is use to just doing enough and then reverting back to the way things have been. It goes against my nature not to respond positively to his efforts right now , but I know he needs tough love . He is still blaming me for what he is feeling.
Not sure if this helps anyone, but once I convinced myself to do it, the rest has been easier. Affaircare and Tanelornpete have been guiding me through this. I have no expectations of him anymore and that has given me peace.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

You said he calmed down during your conversation with H. Was he angry? Was he sad? Was he displaying some emotion? Did he say he wanted the person contact with you? Did he say he loves you? I want to know more. Did you tell him the things he needed to do? Could you write him out a list? (That might be a little much!)


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

Iam, read her earlier posts: she included what she asked of him in this thread not long ago - she DID write a list. I'd point out that regardless of his emotional state, that list is clear and plain: it doesn't require any emotional attachment at all. Responding to emotional states instead of boundaries is one reason why marriages fail.

Hi CMF - 

It sounds like he is possibly feeling some of the loss he would face if a divorce did come about - a large part of the reason for plan B. 

Your three conditions are not that hard to concentrate on: and it may well be that he is indeed working on _some_ of them. It's possible that he is willing to fulfill the second condition (that of transparent honesty). Also, it sounds like he is at least trying to work on the third condition (resolving to work on the marriage) - the fact that he is seeing a counselor is at least a step in the right direction. 

The fact that he refuses to fulfill the first condition concerns me, though. You clearly stated that these three conditions were necessary for any recovery to really begin - they are boundaries that you clearly stated, it isn't difficult for any of them to be done. The first may be the easiest: simply write a No Contact letter to his girlfriend, and give it to you to read, and mail to her. 

But knowing what I do of him, I suspect that this may be one of the things he is most afraid of: it involves some uncomfortable action that means he cannot simply take 'the easy way' out of. It isn't that hard to let you see his phone records - he doesn't use his phone all that much, and he most likely isn't talking to her now anyway. I suspect that his affair was one of convenience: it happened to him (someone gave him a place to sleep) and he most likely wouldn't have actively pursued it - he seems too passive for that kind of action. I could be wrong, of course. So I am guessing that while he knows he shouldn't have done what he did, in his mind, it's in the past, no reason to stir up that can of worms.

The problem is that he doesn't see the reason why this condition is so important to you - to ANY Loyal Spouse. This letter is a very strong reassurance to you that _that_ particular avenue has been cut off (if the letter is written correctly, it will definitely cut off that relationship completely.) It means that he cannot return to her if need arises. (At least not without _extreme_ difficulty - which is not something I sense he wishes to face.)

But what this means in the meantime is that he is still not at the point where he is considering _you_ as much as he is considering how he can manipulate reality so that his comfort level returns. 

So my advice: if he does attempt to contact you, simply ask him if he is willing to honor your request (by note or call, through friend, etc.) If not, tell him you will be waiting for him to do so, and get out of the conversation.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

IANTOO- He has said none of those things to me. He has not told me he loved me in over a year. He is still exploding at me when he is told "no" about anything. I simply dont respond anymore unless it addresses the 3 things I put in my Plan B letter.
Tanelornpete- I'm not so sure he has ended contact, as crazy as that sounds, after his letters to me. He left town 3 days ago for a family wedding( the kids and I were asked to go with him over the summer, but he then decided to just go alone). The OW has not been at work since that time. I called the hotel and they said he was a no show. The fact that he will not reveil his address to me raises a huge red flag too. I have no actual proof that she is with him, but too many coincidences for me. If I asked him he would lie about it. I normally would confront him about it, but it is a waste of time and energy. I am going to continue no contact- and worse case scenario- the affair continues and has been exposed to his family. He made a lot of noise before he left about wanting Halloween pictures sent to his phone tonight- but I see no need to do so- he chose to not see his kids tonight. This is a reality of what divorce will be like. If he is still continuing the affair after all this, I may never get past it, to lie to this extreme is just too much for me.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

You are on the proper course. You have always shown excellent judgment. You should be confident in path you have chosen. Given H's prior behavior, I would suspect you will hear from him on his return.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

I have spent the last several hours trick or treating with my kids and socializing with other parents. I was not keeping up with my cell phone and when I got home there had been about 10 calls from H and 2 very angry voicemails wanting to know where his children were and what they were doing and why I had not given him their schedule. He has been off with his OW ( more than likely) for the past 3 days. I told him exactly what their halloween schedule was before he left- I even posted about it a few days ago. He was upset that HE had missed out on halloween with the kids, I had no idea he would be home early. This was his choice, he wanted to blame me. I said nothing to him and let him talk to the kids for about 2 minutes. I wish I hadn't even answered the phone, because everytime I talk to him I meet anger. This clearly is not a man working on a marriage or being honest. I did use some self restraint and refrained from letting him have it. Sigh.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

You have become the seasoned veteran. He is such a fool when he does these things. He wants to be in control and you refuse to let him grab the reigns. Life would be so much easier for him with out the drama. You are right not to respond in any way.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> I was not keeping up with my cell phone and when I got home there had been about 10 calls from H and 2 very angry voicemails wanting to know where his children were and what they were doing and why I had not given him their schedule. He has been off with his OW ( more than likely) for the past 3 days. I told him exactly what their halloween schedule was before he left- I even posted about it a few days ago.


C - you _did_ give him all the information he needed. He made the choice to miss the fun. He's starting to understand the problem he faces - he's going through several stages (akin to the stages of grief). He's trying to blame you for his actions, grasping at _anything_ that will keep him from taking the action he needs to do. Keep doing the right thing, stay on course. He'll eventually have to take the step he has been avoiding for so long.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

I hope you are right.
Intersting thing happened today- OW called me at work. First time we have ever spoken. She told me she was sick of me "stalking" her and threatened to take out a restraining order against me. She was very angry and told me to stop driving by her work or she would take legal actions. She then denied having any relationship with my husband and told me that my children "love" her and she spoils them whenever she sees them . That she has a great relationship with them ( not sure her purpose with these comments). The only thing I asked her was why she and my H never felt the need to clarify their relationship over the past year if there was nothing to hide- wouldn't it have saved everyone a lot of trouble? She stated it was between him and I, she had nothing to do with it. I told her that she was missing many pieces of the puzzle and only knew one version of the story. I let her know that I had been told she hated me and would never speak to me, she said she never said that. Then she told me she would call the police if she saw me around her work and hung up. I might mention that the number she called me at was a number my husband does not have, but one that I had used to call the cell phone that had been texting him last month and I had tried the number this morning from that line..interesting  They must know that I suspect they were together the past few days. I have not spoken to my husband about that call, am debating if I even want to mention it. I am in no way worried about a restraining order either. I was proud of myself for remaining completely calm. I see no reason for them not to come clean at this point , I have no desire to have this go to court, as I would have to spend a lot of money to prove the affair( I have told my H this too). She is obviously involved with his family now, what do they have to gain by covering it up?


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

Did your kids ever mention any of this to you? The call and its content are so strange. I don't know what to think about it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Sounds to me like they concocted it together. Ignore it.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

CMF~

Just a small reminder. You are supposed to be in No Contact. That doesn't only mean "not speaking to him face-to-face." That also means not being involved in his life, not driving past the restaurant to "check up" on him, not calling the hotel he was previously going to, etc. What you are doing? When you do things like that, is initiating indirect contact. 

NO CONTACT. 

I want you to treat him like you want him to treat the OW when you say "End all Contact forever." This means not asking his friends what he's been up to. This means not haunting his favorite spots to see where he is. Would it be No Contact if he kept asking OW's friends how she's doing? Or *WHAT* she's doing? Or who she's doing it with? How about going to the places she used to be to see if she's there or not? Would you want him to call her house "just to see if she went home"? Would you want him to know what her schedule is "supposed to be", then snooping to see if she followed that schedule, and then freaking out and making assumptions if she didn't follow that schedule? 

CMF, No Contact means that you live a life of PEACE and remove yourself from the drama of infidelity. No Contact means that when he texts 10 times you delete 10 texts BEFORE YOU READ THEM. No Contact means that if he leaves a voice mail, you do not listen to it! No Contact means that you keep your focus on YOU, keep your focus on being a stable parent for your boys, keep your focus on your two issues (expectations and making disrespectful assumptions), keep your focus away from him and his life and his choices. Okay? So no more. Stay out of his life. 

Next, I note that you say he went to a family wedding three days ago. Then you say "the OW has not been to work during that time." How do you know? Do you go to her work? Look for her car? Follow her to her home? Does that not sound a little "above and beyond" to you--you're supposed to be working on yourself and your boys! How does going to her work or following her to her home relate to becoming a mature, personally responsible adult partner or better woman? How does that provide for your children or give them a stable, moral home environment? 

Then you say that you called his hotel and he was a no show. If you are in No Contact, why are you calling his hotel? Why are you checking up on him? How does that help you become a mature, personally responsible adult partner or better woman? How does that provide for your children or give them a stable, moral home environment? 

I realize those may be strong coincidences--but what if she got a ride to work rather than driving herself, and he didn't have the whole family so he decided to save money by sleeping on the couch at someone's house? You jump to the conclusion that THIS IS PROOF he's with the OW!  Nope. It's proof you were following the OW around, driving past her work and home, and calling your hubby's hotel to check up on him when you're supposed to be in No Contact!

You write: _"I normally would confront him about it"._ How is that No Contact again? His life isn't in your control anymore. You are not in contact with him until he gives you 100% of his affection and loyalty. By "confronting him" you are playing his game and telling him that you don't mean what you say. You are telling him that he can bait you any time he wants. So which are you going to choose? He can be in your life creating a whirlwind of drama and :bsflag: while he's dishonest and won't end all infidelity .... or you will not accept that in your life! Period. 

You write: "...He made a lot of noise before he left about wanting Halloween pictures sent to his phone tonight..." How do you know that? If you are in No Contact, that means he can not contact you. You do not interact with him, and he can not "make a lot of noise" at you. If you were to actually maintain REAL No Contact, he would be upset about not being with his children on Halloween, and he'd have to take it out on the person who's causing him to not be with them! Not you! But since you do not maintain a REAL No Contact, he can blame you and make you the "bad guy" thereby prolonging the affair fog. 

You write: "...and I had tried the number this morning from that line..." WHY? Why are you snooping on him, snooping on her, and harassing them with calls? CMF seriously...how is that NO CONTACT? I'm just going to say it. That has got to stop and is a clear demonstration of wanting to control them. 

Finally, you write: "...I have not spoken to my husband about that call, am debating if I even want to mention it..." How would you "mention it" if you are in No Contact? I'm hoping by now that you can see that what you're doing is most definitely NOT No Contact. It will only be harmful to you if you continue along this pathway, and let me be blunt. If you were a judge and one parent was kind of a goof and had some debt, but the other parent had a stalker restraining order against them--who would you consider the better parent? Are you willing to risk YOUR KIDS over snooping and sneaking on people whom you're not even supposed to be in contact with? 

And just so to be clear, here are the grounds for a Stalker Restraining Order: 


> A stalking restraining order may be awarded on the grounds that the stalker followed a victim by foot or car, watched the victim outside of his workplace or home, sent the victim unwanted correspondences such as letters and emails or made harassing phone calls. The accused stalker must have *knowingly and repeatedly committed the acts mentioned above without the consent of the victim* for the order to be issued. Once the stalking order is granted, the stalker must cease all communication, both written and physical, with the victim. What are Grounds for a Restraining Order?


 Sound familiar? After that is granted if you "check up" on her again, you will go to jail. Which parent is better then? The goof up with some debts or the one with the Stalking Order who went to jail because they were so obsessed? 

In conclusion, I'm not trying to be harsh on you, although I bet it sounds and feels that way...but WAKE UP! I don't want you to lose your kids over this. Get back to real live No Contact, and if your hubby spins out of control, loses jobs, gets in debts, has nowhere to live, and carries on a blatant affair in front of everyone--do not tangle yourself up in his life! DIS-entangle from him and his actions. When you are tempted to pick up the phone and "check up" on him, delay for 15 minutes and don't do it. Then delay another 15 minutes...and another until it goes away. 

NO CONTACT means you are not in his life anymore. NO CONTACT means he is not in your life anymore unless and until he demonstrates to you by long-term actions that he is already transparent, he is already committed to addressing his issues and changing, and he comes to you with a No Contact Letter written for you to look at and mail. 

*NO CONTACT!* None. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Don't look, don't check, nothing!


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Ok, I have gotten way off track and allowed myself to be sucked back in. I do agree with you Tunera and Affaircare.
I was trying to verify his statements of his whereabouts and should not have done it.
My H came in the house yesterday and followed me around the house talking to me and he said a few things that just pushed me over the edge. I told him to leave and stop talking to me , and he said"I'm done with you" and stormed off. 
I only blame myself for this- I will start deleting voicemails, not checking up to verify things.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Change your locks.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Changed them months ago, he has no key. The kids let him in, normally he stays in the car.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

Would it be correct of me to say H knows all about Plan As and Bs. He's done some reading, hasn't he? He is aware of the websites and chatrooms, isn't he? He could even read your thread if he took the initiative. He is struggling. Is he still drinking? I think he needs to go "No Drinking" along with "No Contact". He is exercising poor judgment still.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

I doubt he knows about Plan A and B. He only read a little bit in His Needs, Her Needs. He is not taking any initiative. He told me 2 weeks ago that he had stopped drinking, but I do not beleive that to be true now. Things are not looking good right now, I never should have spoken to him Monday- back to no contact except about the kids in the notebook. The OW thing really threw me off .


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

Yeah. If I got a call from OM I it would either set me back or move me to the other extreme. I certainly would flip out, I can tell you that. I can understand how you are feeling. You are so strong!! I wish I had your strength.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

cmf said:


> I doubt he knows about Plan A and B. He only read a little bit in His Needs, Her Needs. He is not taking any initiative. He told me 2 weeks ago that he had stopped drinking, but I do not beleive that to be true now. Things are not looking good right now, I never should have spoken to him Monday- back to no contact except about the kids in the notebook. The OW thing really threw me off .


Honestly? That's completely understandable. Just to help you stay on track and bring peace back to CMF's house, since your hubby is the one who chose to be dishonest and chose to cover an affair (and is still denying it), it would be HUBBY'S job to prove to you his whereabouts and give you the proof so you could verify what he did. I'll give you a personal example (and FYI, it's weird to share some of my personal stuff in front of everyone). But when I was disloyally dizzy and living in fog, I made the choice to lie and cover up. When I came out of it, I knew that I had been the one to choose to act that way, and it wasn't up to Dear Hubby to be my policeman. I had to do the right thing by myself and then go even further and show him I was being open. My job! I went out of my way to make my words and actions match. I gave him the receipts, let him do and see the bills, left my screens open and let him not only see but let him INTO my emails. Shoot I still share every single email and screen and everything with him! 

But does that make sense? When he is ready to really be over this, HE will make the effort to prove it to YOU. It will be his job to show you the verification and you will not be his police-woman. Until then, he will very, very likely continue to try every various trick he can think of to get things "back the way they were"--by using blame, guilt, lies, covering up, promising, etc. What has he done in the past that worked and got you to talk to him again? He'll most likely try that!

Also, CMF, I wanted to publicly apologize for being so hard on you in front of everyone. I do believe it was necessary but I also have no doubt whatsoever that it was hard to hear. And you know one thing I love about you? Every single time I've had to sort of give you a loving 2x4 you don't duck it and blame others--you think about it and admit it. That in and of itself shows a GREAT DEAL of maturity in you. It's easy to get sucked back into contact and back into the affair drama. It was a small sidestep, and I'm glad you're back on track.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

I feel like this week has been a blur- that call on Monday really got me. I am beginning to feel very hopeless about my husband ever getting it together. He will take the easy way out. I know I will be better off without someone like that but it still hurts. I did however experience a reconciliation first hand this week though. A friend of mine started dating an ex- boyfriend from high-school (Facebook strikes again ) he was married at the time, she is divorced( due to husband's infidelity). Same old story- He was unhappy, his wife did not understand him, no sex life, etc... He and his wife had 2 young children. He started communicating with my friend on line, progressed to talking on phone , then he left his wife to be with her. His wife handled this the same way advised by everyone here- no pleading, no promising to change, just let him go and said when you are ready to be faithful and work on the marriage let me know. He immediately began an intense PA with my friend, this lasted almost a year. They vacationed together, had their children spend time with each other, holidays together, he declared his undying love to my friend. We all warned her it was a bad idea , even though they were separated, she had even been the betrayed wife before. This week he returned to his wife to reconcile. I never thought that would happen, she was blindsided. I feel bad for my friend, but am happy to have seen success for another marriage ( I just wish it had been my marriage).


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

My boss started dating a coworker who was married. I tried to get her to think about it, but she was head over heels. His wife was evil. Everyone knew it. yada yada. A week before she was supposed to go to Europe with him to meet his family, his wife demanded he come home or else...and he did. At least that's my boss's version.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Well, I had a conversation with H today. Not sure I should have but I'll let you weigh in. He has expressed how angry he is at me when he picks up or drops off the kids because I said no to his plans for taking the kids out of town for Thanksgiving. He wrote that was what he was doing and I wrote that I had already made plans for us. Lots of yelling and name calling towards me - I ignored it all. This happened a few days ago. Through the notebook he has now offered to help more with childcare, house responsibilities, the dogs. He wrote he had some things to show me if I still cared to see.
When he came to pick up my son for a cub scout meeting tonight ( he came about 45 min. early) he showed me a therapy receipt and a list his therapist asked him to write about pros and cons in staying married. She wants him to list "deal breakers" for him about returning to the marriage and list reasons he feels he has to lie to me about his actions. He has to do this by next week. He told me he is going to look at a new place this week and plans to move out of his current living situation. He told me he is going to write the no contact letter and listed what he would put in it. I heard him out, said let me know when you do these things and left it at that. I did not invite him to stay for dinner . When he dropped off my son, he lingered for a bit. I guess I'll see what happens.

Maybe I am taking this wrong, but that list seems like our marriage would be an option for him. He has not asked to include me in any decision making or therapy . He has not been contacting me other than the notebook ,but he asked if we could start speaking again when we see each other at the house.I told him I would discuss the children or if he wanted to show me any progress he has made on my requests, that was it. It still really bothers me that he is not remorseful or really trying to reconnect with me ( I dont think he wants to or is confused about it). The fact that he went out and started therapy on his own seems to be more motivating for him. 

My last issue tonight is dealing with my family. I have pretty much had zero support from them lately , as they express to me that I am a doormat for not filing divorce papers now that our year is up. They are convinced he will never change, never stop cheating and use me the rest of his life. I have tried to explain to them what I was doing and my reasons, but they have basically told me that they don't want to hear about it until I divorce him. I should "get over it and move on", "cut my losses", and focus solely on the kids and not myself. I find myself arguing with them more and more. My parents have been married 42 years- they are strict Catholics. Very few people on my side of the family have been divorced- but yet this is what I hear. If we actually do truly reconcile I am not sure how to handle this family issue.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I'll try to write more tomorrow, CMF, but the family issue is easy. If your hubby goes to the therapy and begins to learn how to not lie to you and learns how to include you in his life (which would result in reconnecting), the married couple is told by God to "leave and cleave" right? That is to say "Leave your family of origin" and "Cleave to each other." Now I'm not going to get all preachy so don't worry  but I know it has some place in your life and your duty would be to your hubby, not to your family. 

My guess is that they are trying to protect you from further hurt or possibly trying to protect themselves from hurt. Think about it...as a mom wouldn't you just DIE to watch one of your children being hurt by a spouse (over and over again)? You'd try to protect him from more hurt, right? But ultimately it's more hurt to break your vow and end your marriage than it is to hurt some now and give him the chance to work on things. Easy? No. Painful? Yes. But in-the-end it's best to honor your vows and preserve the family if you can...and YOU are one mighty strong woman!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Sounds promising! You are handling this very well!


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## cb45 (Oct 2, 2009)

turnera said:


> My boss started dating a coworker who was married. I tried to get her to think about it, but she was head over heels. His wife was evil. Everyone knew it. yada yada. A week before she was supposed to go to Europe with him to meet his family, his wife demanded he come home or else...and he did. At least that's my boss's version.


if this weren't real life...
this experience/quote would almost be comical/drama material for tv/film for something like "desperate housewives", turnera.

how do so called "bosses" who "reason" like this get to be "bosses" in the first place?

:scratchhead:


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Oh, she's a great person AND a great boss, actually. Been divorced 10 years, has a 'thing' for European men, which this guy is...IDK. I think she just needed a man to care about her, you know? He said all the right things...left his wife and moved right in with her the same day, whirlwind romance, long-term plans, and then BAM! Wife does whatever it is she does...

It's happened before, and he's gone home before, but of course my boss thought it was different. Now she sees that he was just a weak man too chicken to deal with his marital problems.


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## cb45 (Oct 2, 2009)

if this was her first time or
first european man, perhaps.

but how many european men/women do we all have to go thru
b4 we get over our "thing"?

also, my Q was more to the "how.." than anything else, do 
bosses (deservedly so-ones that is) make boneheaded
decisions like this (over n over, repeats)?

sure, they may be yer friend, so u call them "great" but great
they're not (really) when not seeking to overcome fatal flaws.

e.g., i may have a penchant for stealing jewels and priceless 
art (etc) but most folks think me quite the talented host
when doing dinner parties and soirees etc. i am the toast
of the town u might say, but little does it matter when 
confronting my Heavenly Father someday even with Jesus by my side and i dont have anything to show for trying to 
overcome my "habit/thing"; and all my admirers wont be there to help, nor would they, nor could they.

and that, as they say........is the bottom line.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Question: Even if he is able to do the things I requested - write a no contact letter( which has yet to appear), 100% honesty, work to rebuild marriage- if he never admits to the affair or to disclose details of it how can any reconciliation work? Wouldn't it be destined to fail? It seems it means more to him at this point to not admit he did something wrong and lied to everyone about it than to truly have a better marriage. He has agreed to be transparent and honest if he comes home but the denial of the affair continues to be dishonest. He is very firm in stating he will not admit to something he did not do, but the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming and his explanations ridiculous. I just dont see how we could rebuild anything without an omission and remorse.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

CMF, I would just love to be in the place where you are. You are doing great and he is responding. It is withdrawal and it is unpleasant. Your family is taking the usual path and approaches this situation in the "traditional" way. Its no surprise. In the end they will still be there for you. 
Does your H have a sample letter to send to OW?


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

IANTOO-That is the issue- no letter still. He basically told me everything he would put in it, but yet no letter. See my last post- I dont know if any reconciliation can happen until he admits the affair. Have you considered the Plan B letter yet?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

If you get to that point, tell him you'll take him back if he (1) takes a polygraph and (2) signs a post-nup agreement in case either of you ever cheats and is caught, the other gets everything. If he's innocent, he should have no trouble.


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## land2634 (Jun 7, 2010)

I guess I'm curious (as I'm sure you are too) as to why he would say he is going to draft up a no contact letter if he isn't even willing to admit to the affair. It seems to me that the cart is coming before the horse...


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

He claims he is doing it because I asked him to, he is basically saying that he will tell her in the letter to not contact him and he no longer wishes to maintain their friendship.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

cmf said:


> He claims he is doing it because I asked him to, he is basically saying that he will tell her in the letter to not contact him and he no longer wishes to maintain their friendship.


Well, you DID ask him to!

Remember that whatever letter he writes needs to be read, approved and sent by you. This is very important: he can tell you pretty much anything as long as you don't read it. 

Beyond that, CMF, don't get caught up in the "he needs to use the 'a' word" in the letter. As long as it is written in such a way as to ensure that she won't want to have anything to do with him afterward, it is irrelevant how he words it. 

At that point, THAT relationship will be over, and he'll have to face things from that perspective.


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Well, he still has not actually produced a letter. My question remains- if he never admits the affair if there any hope for a true reconciliation?


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

CMF~

I actually have several comments on your two most recent posts, so let's jump right in okay? 

In the post dated 11-09 (a couple days ago) you wrote: 


> He has expressed how angry he is at me when he picks up or drops off the kids because I said no to his plans for taking the kids out of town for Thanksgiving. He wrote that was what he was doing and I wrote that I had already made plans for us. Lots of yelling and name calling towards me - I ignored it all. This happened a few days ago. Through the notebook *he has now offered *to help more with childcare, house responsibilities, the dogs. He wrote he had some things to show me if I still cared to see.


Here's what I see in this post. You have asked for No Contact, and to envision what you mean by that request, it would be AS IF you two actually did divorce: you no longer had any say in his life, he no longer had any say in your life, you moved to another city of your choosing physically apart from him, and periodically you two had to make some scheduling-type arrangements for the boys. Can you see the difference between what you two are doing now (which is essentially continuing to be entangled, but fighting and picking at each other through the Notebook) and what No Contact really means? Would you allow him to be yelling at you about stuff if you two were divorced? Or would you say, "Sorry I don't need to listen to this anymore--you lost that priviledge when you left" and then hang up or leave or close the door? If you divorced, would you be keeping track of everything he's doing and following after his life, or would you carry on with your own life and pretty much ignore him? And since he is equal parent to the boys, would you honestly just make holiday plans for his children without even consulting him? That would be the one and only LEGITIMATE reason for some contact in the Notebook! 

Then, since he has you "in contact" again, please note that right away he jumped right back into his "same old habits" of making promises to try to get you to do what he wants...without any actual ACTION behind the promises. He "promises to" help more with child care. He "promises to" do more house responsibilities. He "promises to" help more with the dogs. And you said he had two weeks to make arrangements for the dogs or you were giving them away! Now if he really, honestly, actually meant any of these things, would he have to talk to you? No. He could just BE more available for child care. He could just DO more household chores or repairs. But rather than demonstrating sincere change, he again goes to what has worked for him in the past: make promises and see if he can reel you into contact and feeling sorry enough for him to meet his needs. This is an ongoing and vicious cycle: even in No Contact you try to control him; and even in No Contact he tries to get his needs met with no actual personal responsibility and using you as someone to blame when he has to face the natural consequences of his own choices! 

*Note to self:* If you two were to divorce, the parenting plan in the divorce would write out the holidays each year (New Years, the two Parents' Birthdays, Fathers' Day, Mothers' Day, each child's birthday, Easter, Memorial Day, Labor Day, Summer Vacation, Halloween, Thanksgiving, Christmas Eve and Christmas Day) and itemizes which parent had the children for which holidays; the court would enforce the schedule. Making plans for the children without consulting or considering the other parent is disrespectful to your hubby--their father. So I would suggest you type out a list of the holidays and who has the kids which days...and split them as evenly as possible. You don't get to tell him what he can and can not do on his holidays with them. That is what divorce means! Not only does he no longer have a say in your life, but you also no longer have a say in HIS!

In that same post you wrote: 


> When he came to pick up my son for a cub scout meeting tonight (he came about 45 min. early) he showed me a therapy receipt and a list his therapist asked him to write about pros and cons in staying married. She wants him to list "deal breakers" for him about returning to the marriage and list reasons he feels he has to lie to me about his actions. He has to do this by next week. He told me *he is going to* look at a new place this week and* plans to *move out of his current living situation. He told me *he is going to* write the no contact letter and listed what he would put in it. I heard him out, said let me know when you do these things and left it at that. I did not invite him to stay for dinner."


When he comes 45 min. early, you have a choice. You can engage with him, which effectively means: "You know that No Contact thing? I didn't mean that. I'd rather have crumbs of your affection and loyalty, so we can continue to fight" -OR- You can go to another room, close and/or lock the door, and let him spend the 45 min. with his children, which effectively means: "I am dead serious about this. I will accept 100% or nothing, and since you are choosing to not offer 100%, it's nothing. I won't take crumbs."

Also, again please note that he's making promises but no ACTION is forthcoming. He told you about the two lists he's supposed to do "by next week," but were they completed? We already have seen demonstration that he'll attend but not actually do the work, haven't we? So we already know that is a choice he is willing to make. Then look at what he says: *"He is going to"* look at a new place; *"He is going to"* move out of his current place; *"He is going to"* write the No Contact letter. See that? None of those things are actually done. A perfect response might be to think "Stop making promises to me. I don't believe them. SHOW me when the work is actually completed. Otherwise I don't want to hear it." and to say "Have you completed the three things I asked for? When you have, contact me. Bye." He still hasn't actually done the lists, and in order to really "do" them he'd need to take time, really think about it, and be honest with himself about himself--not just slap down a couple quick reasons 5 minutes before counseling. He still hasn't actually changed his living arrangement, so he's still in touch with people who support unfaithful living. He may or may not have actually gone out and looked for an apartment he can afford so he can offer his children a safe, moral place to be with him! NOTHING WAS ACTUALLY DONE! And in the end, this is the real issue--precisely. This is why you're in No Contact, and the one and only way out of No Contact would be if he chose to ACT and then show you via his actions that he's ready. (Please read our article "How to Tell When It is Time to End the Consequences Stage")

You continue: 


> Maybe I am taking this wrong, but that list seems like our marriage would be an option for him. *He has not asked to include me in any decision making or therapy*. He has not been contacting me other than the notebook ,but *he asked if we could start speaking again* when we see each other at the house.I told him I would discuss the children or if he wanted to show me any progress he has made on my requests, that was it. *It still really bothers me that he is not remorseful or really trying to reconnect with me* ( I dont think he wants to or is confused about it).* The fact that he went out and started therapy on his own seems to be more motivating for him*.


Regarding the marriage being an "option" for him, I would say that in fact there are many counselors who view the marriage commitment as an option. That is to say, many counselors might take the view that he needs to do what is healthy "for him" and that his commitment would be to himself first, to the marriage second. Here's a newsflash though. Keeping your promises IS optional! He made a promise to "forsake all others" and broke that promise. He made several other promises that I am aware of that he did choose to break. Thus it seems reasonable to guess that breaking his promises is an option he may very well choose. 

"He has not asked to include me in any decision making or therapy." Well...this is supposed to be No Contact. At this point he's supposed to be either working on himself to better himself as a man, father and husband, or be acting AS IF it is a divorce. That means he would make all his decisions for his life without you. That means he would attend therapy for himself. Now, the longer-term goal is that as he works on himself, he realizes the errors he made in the relationship, makes the choice to continue the relationship and honor his commitment, and at that point would begin to demonstrate (through ACTIONS) things like including you in his thoughts/plans, demonstrating mutuality, etc. Honestly the fact he's not including you in decision-making or therapy doesn't bother me. The fact you would expect HIM to include YOU, yet you make plans for Thanksgiving without including him in your decision-making, points to a potential double standard. And rather than focusing on him and what he is or is not doing, that is what you should be working on while he works on himself: learning how to respect and include him as a mutual equal.

"...he asked if we could start speaking again..." See? He is making promises, not doing the work, and why? To get try to lure you back to the old way of doing things. 

"...It still really bothers me that he is not remorseful or really trying to reconnect with me. The fact that he went out and started therapy on his own seems to be more motivating for him..." Oddly this may not be utterly horrible, because he needs to be a mature, healthy individual before he really has anything to offer you as a partner. However, it really would be encouraging if he was interested in being romantic, wanted to spend alone-time with you, or showed some glimmer of "getting it" wouldn't it? I still encourage you to wait until he does, CMF. Right now it may not be disrespectful to be more motivated by fixing himself though. So hang in! 

Finally, in your post dated yesterday, 11-10:


> Question: Even if he is able to do the things I requested - write a no contact letter( which has yet to appear), 100% honesty, work to rebuild marriage- if he never admits to the affair or to disclose details of it how can any reconciliation work? Wouldn't it be destined to fail? It seems it means more to him at this point to not admit he did something wrong and lied to everyone about it than to truly have a better marriage. *He has agreed to be transparent and honest if he comes home *but the denial of the affair continues to be dishonest. He is very firm in stating he will not admit to something he did not do, but the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming and his explanations ridiculous. I just dont see how we could rebuild anything without an omission and remorse.


To be honest, he may not come right out and say, "I had illicit sexual adultery with <name>" and he may not cry crocodile tears of remorse--and in my experience that does not mean that the marriage is unable to reconcile and recover Here's why:

At first, he may want to hold onto some shred of dignity. He may also have a diferent definition of affair or unfaithful: "My penis never entered her vagina so it wasn't an affair. Now we did talk for hours every day, flirt, and kiss that one time, and I did have feelings for her, but that's not an affair. Sex is an affair." BUT despite the dispute in definitions and despite the word-games, if he is willing to ACT on the three requests you made and ACT on his commitment rather than responding to emotions, then he would gradually be behaving more and more maturely. If he were to write a No Contact Letter and then actually set protection around himself so that he's not getting his needs met by other women--then that means that some level of rebuilding would be starting. It's like a foundation to start on, because he'd be turning to you to meet 100% of his needs. Next if he were to make the effort to actually BE transparent, that means he would be acting in a way that was open to you--his ACTIONS would show you his true thoughts and feelings; he'd be ACTING in a way that included you in his life, in his activities, in his cell phone and email. Likewise you would be open and show him YOUR true thoughts and feelings; you'd be acting in a way that included him in your life, in your activities, and in your cell phone and email. You can see that by acting like that, significant reconciliation and recovery would occur and the more that began to occur, the more he'd begin to see what being faithful really means--and see that he really was NOT faithful. Finally, if he were to actually begin ACTING on his commitment to forsake all others for you only, and to choose you in all the circumstances of life--by validating and exhibiting commitment he would necessarily then also be reconciling and recovering more intimacy. 

It's been my experience that ending the affair is the hard part. Once it's over, getting past No Contact is EXTREMELY hard! Thereafter, if a person will genuinely do the work eventually the day will come when the disloyal says to the loyal, "You know what? I'm sorry. I know I was a complete jerk and treated you poorly--and I even denied it for a long time. I don't know now what the heck I was thinking! But I apologize."

On thing you wrote really concerns me. "He has agreed to be transparent and honest if he comes home ..." Does that mean he does not agree to be transparent and honest when he is away from home? Is he using that as a bargaining chip, as if to say he'll give you <this> (honesty) if you give him <that> (a place to live and food)? This is kind of upsetting actually. What you have requested is that he start to be transparent and honest NOW and demonstrate to you that he can be that way. Haven't seen it so far and have seen evidence that he does not feel the need to honor his promises, so what reason is there to believe he'd actually do that " ...if he comes home..."? I don't see any!


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

AC- You are right. I have stopped checking up on him and looking for proof . He is not providing it and his words are just words. He has actually done not one of the things he said to me . Part of me feels he is just waiting for me to serve him with papers. I now clearly see the destructive cycle of how we have been relating to each other over these years and you were dead on


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## cb45 (Oct 2, 2009)

Tadaaaaah!

"i saw the light" (?)

"ladies n gentlemen we have a winner!" (?)

"voila!"

:smthumbup:


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