# The Ugly Side of Marriage Forums



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

So I just had an unsettling, but interesting, experience with my wife.

I go into the bedroom after she's gotten out the shower. Still damp, she's lying on our bed in just a towel. I lay down, and assume the spooning position. She's talking about this or that, while I am caressing her breasts, kissing her soft back, just lightly exploring her body. All is well.

I, naturally, am turned on. I begin to slip my hand in between her thighs from behind, looking forward to the moist treasure inside, and she suddenly clamps her thighs shut. Puzzled, but determined, I try again. She says "no, not right now". I ask her why is she closing her legs, and she shrugs her shoulders. I get concerned, because this is unlike her, and inquire about what's going on. 

*Wife:* Maybe we should go on a date. Going out somewhere would be really nice.

*Me: *What in the world are you talking about? 

*Wife:* Just saying, a date would be good.

*Me:* I get that, a date would be fine, but what does that have to do with what's happening right now?

*Wife:* I don't know, just saying.

*Me:* What have you been reading?

*Wife:* [_Hesitates_] Nothing. Why do you think I've been reading something?

*Me:* Because I know you, and you don't sound like yourself. So what have you been reading?

*Wife:* I've been thinking...

*Me:* Just tell me what you've been reading.

*Wife:* I think I should be a little more chaste.

You guys should have seen my face. Total and complete indignation. Couldn't believe what I was hearing. This is not us...at all. She sees that I am lost in total indignation, and shutting down.

*Me: *Well that was a boner killer.

*Wife: *Why? What did I say.

She tries to caress me, and I told her I don't want to be touched. She is surprised, and wants to keep touching me. I tell her "no", and say I just want to get to the bottom of all this. I don't want to be touched, I want answers. 

She sees that I am very affected by all this, and upset. She finally relents and says:

*Wife: *Alright....well you've been reading that marriage site, so I decided to sign up for my own marriage bulletin. They were saying that wives shouldn't be so available, and that it's nice to tease your husband to keep him satisfied. It got me thinking that maybe I am a little too free and open? I thought I'd try something new. Give you some extra spice. 

I look shell shocked. She keeps trying to hold me, and I am totally repulsed by what happened due to some advice from a random marriage bulletin. 

*Me:* I knew you were reading something! Do you know why I spend time on that site (TAM)? Besides the fact that I like talking about relationship matters, I stick around partly to provide a little hope to people that there are people in good marriages out there. Do you know how many millions of couples are totally sexless, or near sexless? How many people I see on TAM with spouses who are behaving the way you're acting? 

Wife: I'm sorry. I didn't see it that way. I just thought I'd play a little coy. Is there something wrong with adding new things? Some extra spice?

Me: Is there something deeper here? Do you need some spice? Is that what this is really about?

Wife: No. I just don't want you to get bored. You have a healthy appetite...

Me: Are you saying you don't have a healthy appetite now?

Wife: No, I'm not saying that. I just thought you'd want to try something new because I don't want you to get bored.

Me: Then ask me if I'm bored, or need more variety. Don't read some marriage bulletin, not talk to me about it, and then start talking about needing dates before sex, or being more chaste. I don't find being chaste sexy at all. Just ask me. The way you went about it, I didn't have any context for what you were trying to get across.

Wife: OK. Are you happy with our sex life? Do you need some more variety?

Me: I think we should have sex even more often. I told you that earlier this week.

Wife: I know. 

Me: Do you have something you want to do differently?

Wife: No, I agree we need to have sex more often. I just wanted to try something new, to make sure you were happy. Do you need more variety?

Me: When I need more, I will tell you that I do. You know how I am. 

Wife: OK. Sorry. I just was trying to be coy.

Me: That didn't come off as coy AT ALL. That cut too closely to the period where you were having body image issues, and were closing yourself off from sex more often. All this whole thing did was bring back memories from then. All I see is that I go to touch you, you clamped your legs shut, start talking about some vague idea of dating, and then mention needing to be more chaste. Do you know how all that looks to me? Can you see why that would provoke a strong reaction from me?

*Wife:* I didn't see it that way, but I can see better now why you reacted the way you did. I didn't mean it like that though. I was just trying to be coy, to tease.

*Me:* Teasing is wearing an outfit that you know will drive me crazy. Teasing is putting on some underwear that looks great on your body. Shutting your legs, and acting like a chaste wife who doesn't want to be touched ain't teasing. That's gonna have the exact opposite effect. I love how open and free we are! You got some bad advice.

So then, at this point, she's all emotional. She's tearing up, and I'm trying to relax out of my fight-or-flight, heightened place. She withdraws a little, gets timid, and I ask her why. She explains that she really didn't mean to set anything off. That she just thought she'd experiment with some of the advice from the marital bulletin, and didn't expect my really strong reaction. 

So now she's teary, and I'm shell shocked.

We're silent for a bit, while she's finishing getting ready and fixes a quick breakfast.

She sits on the bed. My eyes are closed. She says, in the sweetest voice, "give me your hand baby". I open my eyes and put my hand into hers. She looks straight in my eyes and says:

*Wife:* Babe, we're so good. Do not worry, I am not dissatisfied. I know you like to look for the deeper root of things, but this isn't one of those times. I just read some info, and I thought I would try out something new. There is nothing more to it than that, I promise. OK? 

*Me:* OK.

She finishes getting ready, deeply kisses me, and leaves.

Sheesh. A bit of bad advice from a marriage bulletin, me being far more affected by the TAM stories than I thought, and BAM, a little thing becomes a whole messy morning!


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

jaquen,

I personally think it's better to get these feelings out there. When I read your story, I see a big misunderstanding being cleared up and both partners now knowing more about each other than before. Verbal expression is the key to emotional intimacy


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> jaquen,
> 
> I personally think it's better to get things out there. When I read your story, I see a big misunderstanding being cleared up and both partners now knowing more about each other than before. Verbal expression is the key to emotional intimacy


:iagree:


I think it's great she wants to make sure you're happy and satisfied and she wants to make sure you aren't bored.

I like the talk you guys had,I think it's healthy


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## DayDream (May 25, 2011)

:scratchhead:


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## TrustInUs (Sep 9, 2012)

I think advice on marriage forums can be hit or miss sometimes. My H made a comment at first about getting advice from here until he started reading too. There are some things, especially the alpha threads, that I wondered if he'd try which I'm not sure how I'd feel if he did.

Anyway, it seems like you and your wife have a great communication, and I'm glad you were able to resolve it quickly.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

I can sort of relate, not necessarily in a good way. 
I thought we were so good, why wouldn't I, she said so. And she had always been rather vocal if something was wrong. Had being the key word. I had to pull it out of her, well let's just say we got some work to do. Argh, I wish she said something and I wish I picked up nonverbally.

Good for you.


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

Sometimes you're going to get good advice on a marriage forum and sometimes not so good advice, Its what you do with the advice you are given. Some advice people should try to apply to their marriage, and sometimes there is advice people should just ignore. Its up to you what you feel you should apply and ignore.


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## DayDream (May 25, 2011)

What kind of marriage forum would tell a woman to play coy/withhold sex? And why would your wife do that if there is nothing wrong in your marriage in the first place? :scratchhead:


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Seems to me like you guys talked about it and got a whole lot out in the open.. Good job.

I think you are doing quite well.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

I think it may be hard to know the good advise from the bad.

It's great you were able to communicate and don't react in a crazy way that I would have done. 

Awesome


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

I think its good you all talked it out and got things worked out. However, her clamming up when you touched her and then you doing the same thing and not wanting to be touched when you were trying to figure out what she had been reading, sounds a bit immature and like more work needs to be done.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Your bewilderment is understandable...and probably matches the bewilderment of all the wives whose husbands come here and get told to run the MAP and read MMSL. One of those WTF moments.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

DayDream said:


> What kind of marriage forum would tell a woman to play coy/withhold sex? And why would your wife do that if there is nothing wrong in your marriage in the first place? :scratchhead:


Probably for the same reasons that, during my first couple months on TAM, I began to question some things about our marriage. When you're use to living in a marital vacuum, and then you step out and see that all these people have marriages that are so very different than yours, you begin to compare, ask questions, and even adopt behaviors.

Now that I think of it, she had a similar reaction (without the massive dose of indignation) a few months ago when I started asking her questions about our marriage that I never did. She half-jokingly said "You're going to let that board ruin our marriage!".

Change is a natural part of life. We try to embrace those changes in our marriage to keep it flexible, malleable. She read some admittedly bad advice (which I have seen given to women), tried something new. She was not trying to "withhold sex", she was trying to be coy and teasing, and it didn't translate. I was the one who overreacted, thanks partly to some paranoia due to some of the stories I read here.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

At least you two talked it through and have come back to completely understanding where the other was coming from. Intimacy hasn't been lost, it has actually increased. Good for you guys!


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

I thought this was going to be a post about the post pictures of yourself thread


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Jamison said:


> I think its good you all talked it out and got things worked out. However, her clamming up when you touched her and then you doing the same thing and not wanting to be touched when you were trying to figure out what she had been reading, sounds a bit immature and like more work needs to be done.


It's how we've always been. It's who we are. We are extremely emotionally sensitive to one another. But we know this about one another, we've accepted it, and we know how to address it, or just let it pass in due time.

And it always passes.

And, if it's not clear, she didn't clam up at my touch. That was part of her attempt to play "coy". It's me who has the major problem shutting down when I sense danger. She tends to become very emotional, and a bit distant.



CandieGirl said:


> Your bewilderment is understandable...and probably matches the bewilderment of all the wives whose husbands come here and get told to run the MAP and read MMSL. One of those WTF moments.


:rofl:

A total WTF moment.



Almostrecovered said:


> I thought this was going to be a post about the post pictures of yourself thread


I am slain.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Friggen AR...what an ar$e! LMAO!


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

Almostrecovered said:


> I thought this was going to be a post about the post pictures of yourself thread


LOL, took me about 10 seconds and 1 post later before it dawned on me and boy did I crack up. Yea, I'm a little slow.


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## ShawnD (Apr 2, 2012)

TrustInUs said:


> I think advice on marriage forums can be hit or miss sometimes. My H made a comment at first about getting advice from here until he started reading too. There are some things, especially the alpha threads, that I wondered if he'd try which I'm not sure how I'd feel if he did.


Did he take a dump on your bed? That's how cats show dominance. The submissive ones bury theirs, but the alpha will leave it out in the open just to make a point.

The best marriage advice is no advice at all. How many social problems are caused by people acting retarded simply because they were told to act that way? Better not sleep with someone; it's best to play games! Act like you're not interested then send angry facebook messages to the woman he dates after she shows interest! 
If people got their heads out of their butts, society would run a lot smoother.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Almostrecovered said:


> I thought this was going to be a post about the post pictures of yourself thread


You taunted us with threats of leaving us.... but now we know that you're back in your full glory!


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## TrustInUs (Sep 9, 2012)

ShawnD said:


> Did he take a dump on your bed? That's how cats show dominance. The submissive ones bury theirs, but the alpha will leave it out in the open just to make a point.
> 
> The best marriage advice is no advice at all. How many social problems are caused by people acting retarded simply because they were told to act that way? Better not sleep with someone; it's best to play games! Act like you're not interested then send angry facebook messages to the woman he dates after she shows interest!
> If people got their heads out of their butts, society would run a lot smoother.


What on earth are you talking about?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

To the OP you'd cringe if you read what I've read in some of my marriage books. Yes some do in fact say women shouldn't be so available sexually which I think is just completely rediculous. It's so fear based.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> To the OP you'd cringe if you read what I've read in some of my marriage books. Yes some do in fact say women shouldn't be so available sexually which I think is just completely rediculous. It's so fear based.


I know, right. The kind of advice she was talking about from this bulletin is crap I've seen before. It's not uncommon, I just didn't expect to see my wife trying it out!


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

jaquen said:


> I know, right. The kind of advice she was talking about from this bulletin is crap I've seen before. It's not uncommon, I just didn't expect to see my wife trying it out!


Don't laugh but I quit doing women's bible studies because they affected my marriage negatively. It's brainwashing at it's best. Been there done that. I'm wiser now.


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## ShawnD (Apr 2, 2012)

TrustInUs said:


> What on earth are you talking about?


Most of the problems here are self-inflicted because people ignore their instincts in favor of something random.

This thread is an example. OP's wife was doing fine. She liked her husband and she showed it; she was acting based on how she felt. Some meth head on a forum tells her that rejecting her man and making him feel unwanted will strengthen their relationship (for no apparent reason). She goes against her instincts of being nice and loving, husband feels rejected, and it starts a fight. Completely self-inflicted problem caused by listening to some idiot.

The thread about sex on the first date was very telling. Your gut tells you that you should mate with a partner who likes you and wants to mate with you. Instead, people go against their instincts and insist on waiting to have sex because it's not proper to enjoy sex, relationships, pair bonding, or other skanky stuff that only applies to skanks. All of the high quality men and women are driven away by such behavior, leaving only the desperately lonely people. Then women complain there are no good men out there. Well of course you have no chance of getting a good man; you rejected every single one of them who tried to build a relationship with you! Self-inflicted problems caused by listening to advice.

People fighting over house chores is always interesting. Common sense and instincts say that you should take care of your environment. These instincts are thrown out the window in favor of random assignment of roles based on nothing. Taking out garbage is the man's job for some reason, doing laundry is the woman's job for some reason. If the guy really needs laundry to be done right now, the common sense answer would be to do it himself. Screw common sense, only gay men do laundry, so this job must be pushed on the wife! When it doesn't get done, a fight starts, and this is all because some guy thinks that doing laundry or learning how to iron a shirt will make him gay. Self-inflicted problems caused by listening to others.


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## keepmyfamily (Nov 16, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> I thought this was going to be a post about the post pictures of yourself thread


I almost spit my drink out!


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

jaquen said:


> I know, right. The kind of advice she was talking about from this bulletin is crap I've seen before. It's not uncommon, I just didn't expect to see my wife trying it out!


Recognize that this is typed with all humorous intents possible:

"Well, at least she didn't go on a forum and discover that she's asexual!"


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## TrustInUs (Sep 9, 2012)

ShawnD said:


> Did he take a dump on your bed? That's how cats show dominance. The submissive ones bury theirs, but the alpha will leave it out in the open just to make a point.
> .


I should have been more clear, I was asking in reference to your comment regarding my husband and the comment I made about misgivings we both had regarding forums. I do not understand what you are getting at here.

FTR I do agree with some of the points you made in your follow up post.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jaquen said:


> Probably for the same reasons that, during my first couple months on TAM, I began to question some things about our marriage. When you're use to living in a marital vacuum, and then you step out and see that all these people have marriages that are so very different than yours, you begin to compare, ask questions, and even adopt behaviors.


This happened to us too.... I would find myself getting bent out of shape now & then...over things other men were saying...I felt like they were stomping on my husband being the way he IS.... how the man has to be dominate or he must be a weak Pu$$y of a man....being told I will resent him, he has to be hiding something deep down, maybe I am overbearing.....I had to fight through all of this and realize... some of us are just not like everyone else. 

But I kept coming back here , I was enjoying the debate actually....loved it.... I took to studying temperaments, Lover styles, I studied hormones and damn it ..... I made sense out of why he is the way he is...and who I am...and how it all works for us....despite he is a little out of the box...not the perfectly balanced ALPHA male...

I've read those posts too (the type your wife has read - or maybe...not showing too much aggression in wanting your husband, gotta be subtle now - so he feels like THE MAN chasing her down ).... and thought to myself... happy I ain't married to those types!!! ....we'd be having some real issues if he expected that from me. 




> *ShawnD said*: The thread about sex on the first date was very telling. Your gut tells you that you should mate with a partner who likes you and wants to mate with you. Instead, people go against their instincts and insist on waiting to have sex because it's not proper to enjoy sex, relationships, pair bonding, or other skanky stuff that only applies to skanks.
> 
> All of the high quality men and women are driven away by such behavior, leaving only the desperately lonely people.
> 
> Then women complain there are no good men out there. Well of course you have no chance of getting a good man; you rejected every single one of them who tried to build a relationship with you! Self-inflicted problems caused by listening to advice.


 I disagree with what you are saying terribly.... I am one of those who don't think you ought to be anxious to stick it in on the 1st date... far too many men do not have commitment on their minds... If you think I am the type that thinks women ought to shut their legs after the commitment, you'd be sourly wrong on that one though! 

A woman has the right to understand the intentions of any hungry raging testosterone laden male & not just fall into her instincts in a moment.....(for many reasons)..... Some of us do look upon the act in a sacred fashion, I wouldn't make any apologies for my thoughts on that. 

And I'd choose a man who looked upon it in a similar fashion as well. If he'd dump me cause I didn't open my legs soon enough, I'd know he was not in it for Love ~ but a good F'n time....and he'd soon move on to another once he got bored with me. No, that is not exactly wisdom when looking for a quality mate.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I've read those posts too (the type your wife has read - or maybe...not showing too much aggression in wanting your husband, gotta be subtle now - so he feels like THE MAN chasing her down ).... and thought to myself...* happy I ain't married to those types!!! ....we'd be having some real issues if he expected that from me.*


That will not work for me either. I mean I'm fine with subtlety, and some flirtation, but when it comes down to it what I LOVE, what we both love, is that we can turn to one another freely and know that we're both open. 

When she started acting all "coy" this morning, and closing her legs, I did say to her "What is this? You know I don't work for p*ssy". 

And I don't. I'm into sex with people who want to be there as much as I do. I don't believe in trying to scale mountains, swim oceans, and save the world before you decide to let me in.

The bulletin my baby read should have warned her against husbands like me.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Or as Bart Simspon said when he was put in the 'special' class

"We're already behind all the other kids and you expect us to catch up by going half as fast as them?"


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jaquen said:


> That will not work for me either. I mean I'm fine with subtlety, and some flirtation*, but when it comes down to it what I LOVE, what we both love, is that we can turn to one another freely and know that we're both open*.


 This right here is monumental for us too Jaquen...after our ridiculous missing each other in the past ..... this is our new foundation in







... We are both very very sensitive to rejection (so we've learned)...and we both think SEX is the greatest part of marital bliss .... (who doesn't want an orgasm a day!?)...that just puts us both on the clouds ....

I feel this approach (what you spoke above) is the healthiest there is in a marriage... we please because HIS Pleasure is My Pleasure.... My Pleasure is HIS pleasure...this IS our attitude, our enthusiam, our passion towards one another. I sure know what it's done for us....threw us into a Mid Life Honeymoon ride. 



> I'm into sex with people who want to be there as much as I do. I don't believe in trying to scale mountains, swim oceans, and save the world before you decide to let me in.


 My husband feels the same, if he had to deal with that, he'd roll the hell over. 

What is crazy about him is.. he'd probably stay married & be utterly miserable (staying for the kids) - but since he's got me, the aggressive Vixen to contend with (I'm exaggerating a bit).... he just doesn't have to worry about this....love keepin' him happy.











> The bulletin my baby read should have warned her against husbands like me.


 Definitely . 

My husband once read the dumbest thing online, trying to get more sex out of me... told him to do more Housework, he never told me this back then... 

When I learned this a few yrs ago, I just laughed... I said... "Honey, you read the wrong damn article in relation to me... that is how you deal with an "Acts of service woman" - that is not me.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I've blindsided my wife a few times after reading threads on this site. Although for me it's usually some thread about a withholding wife that triggered me and made me think of my wife in the same light even though she's not that way anymore.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Jacquen, I applaud you on the way you were able to communicate with each other. Although this was clearly distressing to both of you, it's awesome when you can stick to what happened and process it without blame the way the two of you did.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

> Wife: I think I should be a little more chaste.


I would probably blast laughing at that one liner... WTF was she reading? Only someone who doesn't get what a guy needs in a long term relationship can think being "chaste" is something that works well.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

jaquen said:


> *Wife:* Maybe we should go on a date. Going out somewhere would be really nice.
> 
> *Me: *What in the world are you talking about?
> 
> ...


She just wants you to spoil her and take her out, have some romance, not just sex. She said it very clearly.



> *Me: *Well that was a boner killer.
> 
> *Wife: *Why? What did I say.
> 
> ...


Back off one bit and watch the ladies come at you, funny really. Works like a charm, EVERYTIME. Now, you just have to capitalise on this in the future.



> *Wife: *Alright....well you've been reading that marriage site, so I decided to sign up for my own marriage bulletin. They were saying that wives shouldn't be so available, and that it's nice to tease your husband to keep him satisfied. It got me thinking that maybe I am a little too free and open? I thought I'd try something new. Give you some extra spice.
> 
> I look shell shocked. She keeps trying to hold me, and I am totally repulsed by what happened due to some advice from a random marriage bulletin.


:rofl:
Priceless!

Well, Jaquen, you tell her about me, how my STBXW can't be herself and aggressive with me because she turns me off, how I've rejected her because of it. Now, you remind her that she should consider herself lucky.



> *Me:* I knew you were reading something! Do you know why I spend time on that site (TAM)? Besides the fact that I like talking about relationship matters, I stick around partly to provide a little hope to people that there are people in good marriages out there. Do you know how many millions of couples are totally sexless, or near sexless? How many people I see on TAM with spouses who are behaving the way you're acting?
> 
> Wife: I'm sorry. I didn't see it that way. I just thought I'd play a little coy. Is there something wrong with adding new things? Some extra spice?
> 
> ...


Hell mate, your wife just strikes me as a woman who really wants to spice things up, she has been very transparent and honest with you. You should appreciate this, if my STBX said to me "I shouldn't be so available"

WE WOULDN'T BE HEADING FOR DIVORCE!!!
Come on bro!


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

This thread has turned into the opposite of its title, thanks jaquen and all posters, some really good stuff.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> She just wants you to spoil her and take her out, have some romance, not just sex. She said it very clearly.


We have romance. We were married in Tuscany, in the courtyard chapel of a 500 year old castle, without a single guest, and it was all my idea. My wife gets flowers for no specific reason, frequently showered with physical, verbal and written affection, and last month we just did a romantic anniversary trip to Boston.





RandomDude said:


> Back off one bit and watch the ladies come at you, funny really. Works like a charm, EVERYTIME. Now, you just have to capitalise on this in the future.


Not really. She always touches me. She loves to touch, and be touched. I don't have to play withdrawal games to get the woman to put her hands on me. 





RandomDude said:


> :rofl:
> Now, you remind her that she should consider herself lucky.
> 
> 
> ...


I think you might be looking at this through a totally different lens than my wife and me...

:scratchhead:


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

I'm interested, Jaquen, your wife knowing you as well as she does, why would she apply something like that in such a clumsy, tone-deaf kind of a way?

Yes, it was obviously sh*tty advice, and just one more example of women being told they shouldn't like sex, but it seems strange that she would try to bring something like that into your marriage, when it's clearly the opposite of what you as her husband would ever want. 

My husband's like you, he has way too much pride and self-respect to jump through hoops for sex. There's never been any sense in our marriage that I'm doing him some kind of favour by having sex with him. So there is no way I would consider that kind of advice, no mater what spice I was trying to add.

I hope this isn't coming across as nitpicky. When I first read your post, my initial though was that your wife didn't want to have sex and was trying to put you off, but when she saw it made you upset and angry, she backed off and offered a kind of lame explanation. That runs contrary to everything else you've said about your relationship, but, yeah, seems off somehow. Hope it's all sorted out now.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Lyris said:


> I'm interested, Jaquen, your wife knowing you as well as she does, why would she apply something like that in such a clumsy, tone-deaf kind of a way?


I adore my wife, but when she puts herself out there in new ways "clumsy" and "tone-deaf" aren't really unusual for her. Unless she's in the throws of passion, she can be a little awkward when it comes to matters like this. It's all smooth sailing when she's caught up in the passion of the moment, running on instinct, but if she has too much time to think of a thing, to try and execute something like this on purpose, the results aren't always the most effective. She's a classic overthinker, and putting herself out there in new ways like this can really jumble her up!

If I wasn't so damn on edge in the moment, I probably could have seen how cute it was. I really escalated things with my bold, indignant response. Totally my fault. I think she was really blinded sided by the strength of my response, and totally didn't see it from my perspective at all. We were both coming at the same event from totally different angles. 



Lyris said:


> but it seems strange that she would try to bring something like that into your marriage, when it's clearly the opposite of what you as her husband would ever want.


I think the coyness, the teasing, could have worked. Her execution just sucked (which I told her). It just turns out that the way I was reading her body language wasn't at all like she intended. 



Lyris said:


> My husband's like you, he has way too much pride and self-respect to jump through hoops for sex. There's never been any sense in our marriage that I'm doing him some kind of favour by having sex with him.


Exactly!



Lyris said:


> I hope this isn't coming across as nitpicky.


Not at all.



Lyris said:


> When I first read your post, my initial though was that your wife didn't want to have sex and was trying to put you off, but when she saw it made you upset and angry, she backed off and offered a kind of lame explanation. That runs contrary to everything else you've said about your relationship, but, yeah, seems off somehow.


Yeah, as I was typing that up I expected those reactions. I know how it sounds on the outside looking in. I'm actually surprised it didn't come up more from respondents to this thread!

But yeah, it definitely would be contrary, since we both are completely comfortable turning each other down.



Lyris said:


> Hope it's all sorted out now.


If the sex early this morning that she woke me out of my sleep for was any indication, I'd say we're definitely well sorted out. :smthumbup:


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

I'm very glad to hear it! And your wife sounds cute as a button.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Lyris said:


> I'm very glad to hear it! And your wife sounds cute as a button.


She SO is. That's the _perfect_ way to describe her Lyris. She is total sweetness, light, love, and adorableness. I've seen pictures of her as a toddler, and seriously it's like she somehow managed to retain that essence. It's uncanny.

Thanks for saying that. It really made me smile!


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Anyone who's had to read Shakespeare knows there's about 6 stories in the world. Everything else is a variation on them. So all the advice you get from hither and yon isn't going to be materially different or especially useful in a different way. If 12,000 years of semi civilization has taught us something is that's we're not special snowflakes and we're not the first ones to do or think something. And we never learn. Why else do you think Hinduism is ambiguous on the point of reincarnation. Over and over doing stupid sh^t like it's some shiny new thing. Hey maybe in a hundred more cycles you'll improve 5% on that. 

Someone asked me once if you knew the day you would die would it change anything. My answer was there's millions of people like that every day. We call them terminally ill.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The advice wasn't about being coy. 

Let's stop playing word games. The advice as she understood it was to decline sex and ask for more dating behavior at the same time. 

Let's reverse the situation. H is primary breadwinner and the two are out shopping. She sees something nice and affordable and mentions buying it. He shrugs and says he doesn't think it is a good idea and then immediately after says he thinks that they should be having more sex. 

Is that him being 'coy,'? 

Where I come from that is called extortion.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Let's stop playing word games. The advice as she understood it was to decline sex and ask for more dating behavior at the same time.


A. My wife wouldn't do that.

B. My wife doesn't have any reason to do that.


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

The 'woman should not be so available' is not for married women, that is a bulletin for dating women. I signed up for that a long time ago with the promise of 'marriage advice' too, but after reading lots of the info, I figured out that would not work in a marriage. Basically, it advises doing a constant 180...that is not advisable in marriage. If I did that to my husband he would be in a constant state of WTF.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

I don't know how 'most women are'. I know how mine is. What I DO know is that when she talks to me like I'm an archetype she's not saying anything of value to to me at all.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> Thank goodness my husband isn't really a forum guy. LOL.
> 
> About a year and a half ago, my husband and I were having a severe breakdown in communication, it was like I was talking French and he was speaking Spanish; we understood the jist of what each other was saying but we kept missing all of the nuances and it was so frustrating. I found TAM at my wits end and being at a low point, I was like "oh hey, everyone is recommending this MMSL thing, let's give that a go!" Gave the book to him after reading it a bit and being like "this doesn't seem right but okay!"
> 
> ...


I'm not a MMSL disciple and don't put a whole lot of stock into his alpha/beta categories in a strict sense. However, reading your story in this post I can see exactly what happened. You became the "nice guy" and tried to accommodate his needs while deferring on your needs. What you and your husband did was flip the script and made it into a zero sum game where one spouse "won" only when the other spouse "lost". I don't think it's supposed to work that way.

I try to use common sense as much as possible with marital issues. I think love is the foundation upon which your marriage must be built upon, and that communication and mutual respect for each other are 2 pillars needed for building a solid marital structure. MMSL primer tries to teach us some of those things we should have picked up while growing up. We should have learned that people will take advantage of us if we are doormats and 'yes men'. It wouldn't be any different in a marriage.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> Thank goodness my husband isn't really a forum guy. LOL.
> 
> About a year and a half ago, my husband and I were having a severe breakdown in communication, it was like I was talking French and he was speaking Spanish; we understood the jist of what each other was saying but we kept missing all of the nuances and it was so frustrating. I found TAM at my wits end and being at a low point, I was like "oh hey, everyone is recommending this MMSL thing, let's give that a go!" Gave the book to him after reading it a bit and being like "this doesn't seem right but okay!"
> 
> ...


You really need to take this entire post and make a thread about it.

Very eye opening, and a great reminder that all of our journeys can't be boiled down to the talking points from one of TAM's book-of-the-month obsessions.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Forums. I suppose too many of us (I've done it myself in the past) come and look for someone to tell us what to do...then we go and do it! The use I have for this forum at this time, aside from some ranting, is limited to getting ideas / potential solutions to any given issues...and I go from there. It seems to be working for me.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

jaquen said:


> So I just had an unsettling, but interesting, experience with my wife.
> 
> I go into the bedroom after she's gotten out the shower. Still damp, she's lying on our bed in just a towel. I lay down, and assume the spooning position. She's talking about this or that, while I am caressing her breasts, kissing her soft back, just lightly exploring her body. All is well.
> 
> ...


Yeah, but after all that... did you get any


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Chris Taylor said:


> Yeah, but after all that... did you get any


Page 3, post #41 contains the answer to that.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

jaquen said:


> Page 3, post #41 contains the answer to that.


Cool.

And BTW, good job of addressing the issue immediately instead of letting it fester. I know in the past I would have left it and misinterpreted what had happened and it would have spiraled downward from there.


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## Zing (Nov 15, 2012)

jaquen said:


> If I wasn't so damn on edge in the moment, I probably could have seen how cute it was. I really escalated things with my bold, indignant response. Totally my fault. I think she was really blinded sided by the strength of my response, and totally didn't see it from my perspective at all. We were both coming at the same event from totally different angles.


This is the first explanation that came to my mind 5 seconds into reading your post...I've always felt that you as a couple are quite different by nature and pride yourself in being so...I love reading up on titbits about you and your wife...in this instance, I did feel that you over-reacted (at least by a bit) though no one else seems to be saying so other than yourself...
(I've tried things like this too that have backfired on me...I've read things and tried stuff and have been at the receiving end of variety of reactions - ranging from 'WOWs' to 'efforts-never-being-noticed' to 'WTH'...so I'd sorta know how she felt...lol)

Your wife is devoted to you and you're very proud to be her's...so always play that in your head when you feel unnerved by any of these funny surprises she springs you... 

I instantly conjured a scenario that this scene reminded me of...

Imagine this - a toddler's just heard about the word 'tidy up' and how his friends are all doing it and earning 'stars' at playschool for doing so. He decides to try this at home for similar reactions and takes it upon himself to help his mommy. Only, the room he's now trying to tidy was already sparkling clean to begin with. If anything, the room only turns out a bit messier following his version of tidy-up!!!
So, his efforts are now in vain...his mommy's a bit exasperated...but and a big BUT, the toddler's intentions are and will always remain adorable to me (and eventually to his mommy - for sure)!


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

FrenchFry said:


> I kind of agree I got a little "too nice," but that was also a product of reading this board and feeling extreme sympathy for those people in bad situations, especially sexless situations. Before I came here, during the start of the breakdown, I wasn't nice at all, and our fights were horrible. In the middle, I got tired of fighting so I came here for communication advice. I read a bit of MMSL, gave it to my husband and did the "get hot and fit, do you and your work around the house because it's yours and be aloof," portion of a modified "FAP" (lol) while my husband read MMSL and that combination lead to intense passive agression on his part and feelings of complete worthlessness and phoniness on mine. So, my FAP was "gain weight, don't do dishes and ***** alot. Also, give your husband the bird a lot." Which, I have to admit is still being a total doormat but I think my husband better understood the negative derivation of my personality as "Oh crap, this isn't good at all" more than he understood the positive.
> 
> *I've been tempted to start a thread, but I kind of feel like it would be just taken as me trying to salt the game of the people for whom MMSL worked. I just know it did not in my case and whenever honest opinions are asked about how it may not work, I'll try and speak my piece.*


You're a woman and you read MMSL, and you're wondering why it didn't work?


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## oldgeezer (Sep 8, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> Don't laugh but I quit doing women's bible studies because they affected my marriage negatively. It's brainwashing at it's best. Been there done that. I'm wiser now.


That's too bad. My Bible says that God made us man and woman, created sex itself. We are made with a sex drive, emotions to enrich our experience, and it is possible that the highest level of pleasure would be intimacy with our spouse. 

I don't get "prude", "reserved", "repressed", or anything out of that that says we should or should not do anything that negatively affects our relationship with each other. Seems to me that too many insert "teachings of men" into these things, a mentality that enthusiasm and joy and the thrill of intimacy and love are supposed to be supressed.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

oldgeezer said:


> That's too bad. My Bible says that God made us man and woman, created sex itself. We are made with a sex drive, emotions to enrich our experience, and it is possible that the highest level of pleasure would be intimacy with our spouse.
> 
> I don't get "prude", "reserved", "repressed", or anything out of that that says we should or should not do anything that negatively affects our relationship with each other. Seems to me that too many insert "teachings of men" into these things, a mentality that enthusiasm and joy and the thrill of intimacy and love are supposed to be supressed.


In my experience many bible studies often have little to do with what is actually in the bible.


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## Lavender&Lace (Oct 7, 2011)

But, is it wrong to play coy, and make hubby "work for p_ssy"? What if the chase factor is a bit of a turn on??? I'm just sayin' I kind like being pursued...kinda like role play...I think it's fun and adds "spice".


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Lavender&Lace said:


> But, is it wrong to play coy, and make hubby "work for p_ssy"? What if the chase factor is a bit of a turn on??? I'm just sayin' I kind like being pursued...kinda like role play...I think it's fun and adds "spice".


If it turns you and the hubby on, I say go for it! :smthumbup:

It's just not my idea of a good time. I mean sure, maybe in a specific roleplaying scenario, but I would not be down at all for my wife keeping a perpetual coyness, "you've got to work for this" mentality going at all.


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