# Time to figure this out...



## [email protected] (Feb 12, 2014)

I have been struggling with my marriage for several years now. My wife is a wonderful person, mother and by general standards, a good wife. While I love her for who she is, I have doubted whether or not I am in love with her for quite some time. A couple years ago after feeling at my wits end, I asked for a trial separation. I never went through with it because she told me if I left it would have to be for good. I thought it would be a good way to know for sure if my feelings were valid or not. While I had already been seeing a counselor for a while, she asked me to try joint counseling before resorting to the separation. I agreed. Over the course of the next few weeks I listened to our counselor, family and friends tell me about how it was the wrong thing to do until I think I just gave in faced with the opposition and how much it was obviously hurting my wife and how much I knew it was going to hurt our kids. Things did seem to get better for a while as my wife worked on the little things that came up during counseling and I worked on my mindset. Over time, I started sliding right back to where I had been before. Feeling alone. Even still, I convinced myself that this was just my life. It was what I had constructed and it was my responsibility to see it through. I guess what I would like some input on is this. Is it normal to still feel love for your spouse but no longer be in love with her? Is it best to stay together for the well being of the children or to end the relationship? Thank you in advance for any helpful input.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Betrayedone (Jan 1, 2014)

Heck yes.....It's normal to fall in and out of love.....Take it from someone who knows what it's like to have your wife walk out on you and never come back, and not care. Don't you be that person! I read somewhere that of longtime married couples that were once considering splitting up but weathered the storm and stayed together 85% of those couples said they were glad they stayed together......DO THE WORK required to fix it.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> I have been struggling with my marriage for several years now. My wife is a wonderful person, mother and by general standards, a good wife. While I love her for who she is, I have doubted whether or not I am in love with her for quite some time. A couple years ago after feeling at my wits end, I asked for a trial separation. I never went through with it because she told me if I left it would have to be for good. I thought it would be a good way to know for sure if my feelings were valid or not. While I had already been seeing a counselor for a while, she asked me to try joint counseling before resorting to the separation. I agreed. Over the course of the next few weeks I listened to our counselor, family and friends tell me about how it was the wrong thing to do until I think I just gave in faced with the opposition and how much it was obviously hurting my wife and how much I knew it was going to hurt our kids. Things did seem to get better for a while as my wife worked on the little things that came up during counseling and I worked on my mindset. Over time, I started sliding right back to where I had been before. Feeling alone. Even still, I convinced myself that this was just my life. It was what I had constructed and it was my responsibility to see it through. I guess what I would like some input on is this. Is it normal to still feel love for your spouse but no longer be in love with her? Is it best to stay together for the well being of the children or to end the relationship? Thank you in advance for any helpful input.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What do you mean by love? There is a difference between love and lust. What exactly are you missing? The thrill of a new relationship? Variety?

How is your sex life now?

If you made a list of what's wrong with your wife, what would it be?


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## [email protected] (Feb 12, 2014)

Betrayedone said:


> Heck yes.....It's normal to fall in and out of love.....Take it from someone who knows what it's like to have your wife walk out on you and never come back, and not care. Don't you be that person! I read somewhere that of longtime married couples that were once considering splitting up but weathered the storm and stayed together 85% of those couples said they were glad they stayed together......DO THE WORK required to fix it.


And what work might that be that I have not already done? Emotions aside please...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## greeneyedlily (Nov 10, 2012)

I think one has to do what is right for them, and if you have been working on this for years, then maybe it is not fixable. And honestly that is truly ok... Divorce does not make one a failure. I must say I believe marriage is a prison if one is not able to be happy. It takes two people on the same page... And this drama you describe, of perpetual unhappiness it is a terrible example for the kids about relationship.


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## Kurosity (Dec 22, 2011)

You said your wife worked on things that came up while you worked on your mindset....um did you actually try to work on your relationship with your wife? It is hard to "fall" for some one if they are not the person on your mind esp. if you are the only one on your mind.
Your life won't change unless your actions do. 
Do you suffer from depression? Are you blaming your wife for things that are lacking yet you are not actively pursuing in your relationship? I guess what I am asking, are you being reactive or proactive in your marriage?
I do believe there are waves of love and in love in LTRs.


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## Keenwa (Oct 26, 2013)

Hey there... Makes me sad to see hostile comments and judgement. I am in the same boat. I think we have every right to say that a relationship no longer serves our needs. I have been in therapy since last April and couples therapy now since May because my husband asked me to try. We have given ourselves a year. 

After a year I still feel like you do, I love him but am not in love. It is very hard to judge where you're at since I don't know you. One thing my therapist said to me was that it would be beneficial for me to stay for a while and work on relationship, on my issues and co-dependency. She said something that struck me "you can't work on relationship when you are not in one". So she suggested making this relationship as good as you possibly can and if you leave you do it because it is simply not how you want to live, and not because you have all kinds of anger and unspoken frustrations with your spouse. It has been a long hard look in the mirror at what I have done to enable this dysfunctional relationship. So for that I am grateful because I don't want to end up in the same type of relationship again. 

Sometimes I wonder if it's harder to be in a relationship with someone that you love/like and care about but don't want to be with, because things are never "that bad" that you feel you have to leave. Apart from the depression from being in a relationship that isn't life giving. But surely life is more than just making it through the day in a sea of mediocrity, and dullness. You deserve to be happy, you deserve to feel content, you deserve to be loved the way you want to be loved. 

Now... I just gotta convince myself of the same.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

I am curious about the I love you but I'm not in love with you statements. This is what betrayed spouses hear all the time. The thing is, after the the infatuation phase has calmed down in a relationship all you have left is love for mature people. What is missing in your love life now? 

Another point that has to be made is about happiness. A person is responsible for their own happiness. Another person can do nothing to make you happy. One has to figure out how to be happy on their own. By the same token, your spouses, assuming they are not abusive, are not responsible for your depression. That's between you and your doctors.

Breaking up families in search of the holy grail of happiness is just going to leave misery in your wake. As the old timers wisely say, no matter where you go, there you will be.

If you are in counseling and things aren't getting better, you either aren't giving it your all or you need to find a better counselor.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Chaparral said:


> If you are in counseling and things aren't getting better, you either aren't giving it your all or you need to find a better counselor.


Cant say I agree with this statement. Counseling doesnt always make things better, despite the effort made or the quality of the counselor. 

Crossroads, were you ever truly in love with your wife? Have there been issues between you? If so, what have those issues been?


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## Midlifeturmoil (Dec 30, 2013)

3Xnocharm said:


> Cant say I agree with this statement. Counseling doesnt always make things better, despite the effort made or the quality of the counselor.
> 
> Crossroads, were you ever truly in love with your wife? Have there been issues between you? If so, what have those issues been?


This. It is a very narrow-minded conclusion. It says "you and your counselor haven't come up with the correct answer yet, so keep at it (or find another counselor) until you do". 

Wherever you go, there you will be. This said from the perspective of certain disaster if you choose to move on. Consider that if you choose to go nowhere (meaning neither working hard to improve it nor move on), that is exactly where you will be in another 20 years. How "happy" will you be? How "happy" will your wife be? 

I haven't been reading here very long, but it is apparent to me that many/most responses on this issue are made from the view of someone that was seriously hurt by their spouse in one way or another. From the perspective of the spouse that did NOT feel the way you do. Someone like your wife. 

Take Betrayedone's survey for example. "...of longtime married couples that were once considering splitting up but weathered the storm and stayed together 85% of those couples said they were glad they stayed together". Did anyone bother to survey longtime unmarried couples (the ones that DID separate and possibly/probably remarried)? Just read some of Hambone's posts and many, many others on here that are now in a wonderful relationship after they figured out that "going somewhere" meant they needed to move on for their benefit AND for the benefit of their spouse. I'll bet the percentage of those folks that would say "...it was not easy, but it was the best thing for both of us and I would do it again" would be much higher than 15%. 

I'm glad you are here. We have something in common. By being here, you are "going somewhere". Meaning you are taking steps to do something about your situation, regardless of where it leads you. 

CR, only you know how hard and how long you have worked on your own shortcomings and the things that you can influence to improve your marriage. It seems to me like the important thing is that you need to KNOW that YOU gave it your BEST to improve yourself and your marriage relationship. Then, should you chose to move on, you will do it with confidence...from a position of strength rather than uncertainty. Maybe you are there. Your post suggests not. Only you know.


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## [email protected] (Feb 12, 2014)

Midlifeturmoil said:


> This. It is a very narrow-minded conclusion. It says "you and your counselor haven't come up with the correct answer yet, so keep at it (or find another counselor) until you do".
> 
> Wherever you go, there you will be. This said from the perspective of certain disaster if you choose to move on. Consider that if you choose to go nowhere (meaning neither working hard to improve it nor move on), that is exactly where you will be in another 20 years. How "happy" will you be? How "happy" will your wife be?
> 
> ...


And this is how I feel. If I do nothing then nothing changes. I don't want to hurt anyone or cause the type of bitterness I've heard here but it seems to me that in the long run, everybody wins. I don't appreciate my wife the way I should be because I can't. She and I have different ideas about what love and life are about even though both of us are good people. I want my kids to be independent. She says she wants the same but loves them so much that she does everything for them. My son is ten years old and can barely tie his shoes. I've talked to her about it over and over but nothing changes. All the while she feels overwhelmed. I want to love and dream like a kid out of school and she is comfortable with where she's at. Comfortable with only getting herself together when I get frustrated enough to make a big deal about it or threaten to leave. It's not healthy for her or myself. I feel as though I have given everything to provide our dream of having a family (her only dream) but have to fight to get her to help with my dreams. I don't want out of any responsibility, I just want my passion back. Is that so wrong???
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Keenwa (Oct 26, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> And this is how I feel. If I do nothing then nothing changes. I don't want to hurt anyone or cause the type of bitterness I've heard here but it seems to me that in the long run, everybody wins. I don't appreciate my wife the way I should be because I can't. She and I have different ideas about what love and life are about even though both of us are good people. I want my kids to be independent. She says she wants the same but loves them so much that she does everything for them. My son is ten years old and can barely tie his shoes. I've talked to her about it over and over but nothing changes. All the while she feels overwhelmed. I want to love and dream like a kid out of school and she is comfortable with where she's at. Comfortable with only getting herself together when I get frustrated enough to make a big deal about it or threaten to leave. It's not healthy for her or myself. I feel as though I have given everything to provide our dream of having a family (her only dream) but have to fight to get her to help with my dreams. I don't want out of any responsibility, I just want my passion back. Is that so wrong???
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nope… having passion is what gives us life. I completely disagree with people who say you have to slog away at a marriage, come rain or come shine. Sure work at it, sure of course, don't just walk away when he eats the last cookie, but we are not talking about that here. We are talking about disconnection. What I have learned is that disconnection takes 2 parties equally disconnecting… so even though you might "fight" for your marriage, if the other person doesn't give a flying hoot, then what the hell are you fighting FOR? Maybe couples counselling works if both parties are working hard at it and willing to take a look in the mirror and acknowledge their bags of dirt. But if it's only one person and the other is not… that's a lot of money in the toilet. 


I am in exactly the same boat. Our first break up conversation started with me saying that we wanted different things, we were walking down different paths and that was ok. He is happy with his life as it is and I am not. When we got together he told me he was excited about living life, travelling, doing things outside of the box, etc… but all of his actions have shown me that he does not want to do anything outside of the box. So now after a year of therapy I realize he's scared to step outside of that status quo. That's ok. but he continues to talk about it though, and seems convinced that we are right for each other. The only analogy I can make to it is the one of the teen who wants to be a rock star… they see the glamour they see the fun and they think they want it, but they don't really, they want the glamour and thrill of it, but not reality of it. I'm not trying to put myself on the pedestal here, but just to say that I have never been tied to a city, a job, etc… to me life has always been about experiences, learning etc… to him it's about stability, but man can he talk a good talk about how much he wants to "live life"… only thing is I've never seen any of that out of him and we've been together for 18 years… I don't anticipate it's coming anytime soon. I think he's lying to himself. Almost like the drug addict who says he's going to stop. The desire is there but it's not strong enough to get them to take action. I told him way back at our first conversation "you want stability, I want possibility". 

Now after thousands of dollars of therapy/counselling, I find myself right back at square one realizing that I was right all along . Therapy only works if both partners jump in. If one is only doing it to please the other it doesn't work. You have to commit to it. He is not. I just realized that I think I'm done, and I feel myself leaving in my heart. I just have to catch up with my brain and get past the feelings of guilt of being a complete schmuck for needing something different than he can offer.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

Stay married. You agreed to be married for a lifetime, honor your contract. Remember, this is the life that you chose. To even consider inflicting the destruction and pain of a divorce on your family just because your wife doesn't give you pins and needles is an extremely short sighted and imprudent idea. This is real life, not a romance novel or dramatic play. Chasing waterfalls for unicorns, puppy dogs, and ice cream cones is fine and dandy if its just you, but the emotional stability of your innocent children hangs in the balance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wifeyre (Oct 18, 2013)

Keenwa said:


> Hey there... Makes me sad to see hostile comments and judgement. I am in the same boat. I think we have every right to say that a relationship no longer serves our needs. I have been in therapy since last April and couples therapy now since May because my husband asked me to try. We have given ourselves a year.
> 
> After a year I still feel like you do, I love him but am not in love. It is very hard to judge where you're at since I don't know you. One thing my therapist said to me was that it would be beneficial for me to stay for a while and work on relationship, on my issues and co-dependency. She said something that struck me "you can't work on relationship when you are not in one". So she suggested making this relationship as good as you possibly can and if you leave you do it because it is simply not how you want to live, and not because you have all kinds of anger and unspoken frustrations with your spouse. It has been a long hard look in the mirror at what I have done to enable this dysfunctional relationship. So for that I am grateful because I don't want to end up in the same type of relationship again.
> 
> ...


I'm going through the same thing I don't think I'm in love with my hubby anymore. I'm with him for the sake of our daughter, I find myself asking if it's really worth it to stick around? 
Unfortunately I cannot give advises about this cause I need one myself.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

3Xnocharm said:


> Cant say I agree with this statement. Counseling doesnt always make things better, despite the effort made or the quality of the counselor.
> 
> Crossroads, were you ever truly in love with your wife? Have there been issues between you? If so, what have those issues been?


I believe I read Dr. Harley write that when he first started, that a couple going to marriage counseling had no better chance of avoiding divorce that those that didn't go to counseling.

My point was that there are many counselors that are simply not any good.

If you see what people write here about their counselors, I think you will come to the conclusion that many counselors have no common sense at all.

The new shine wears off of marriage, to throw it away like a used toy destroys children's lives. Google the statistics that have been researched concerning the children of infidelity and divorce. This is real life.


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## justforfun1222 (Feb 6, 2013)

The way I see it is that we have one life, and it is by far to short to be unhappy! Sometimes the choices we make when we are caught up in the moment of new love feelings, are not the choices that should be made. There is also the fact that some people change after marriage~~ My husband was adventurous, spontaneous, and loved to be out doing things when we were dating. He knew that was the kind of person that I am, and still want to be but, once we got married he turned into this angry person that either wants to sit and watch tv, or makes you feel like you have to be working around the house all the time... talk about tension! HE IS NO FUN, anymore, I don't want to live my life stressed out with someone who does not care what my opinion is about things! Do I believe in commitment to a marriage... of course I do, but when you have tried everything you can to truly love the person and to seek help from the outside, which I may add after 2 years of personal counseling I have come away with nothing, and there has been multiple counselors which have all said that all I can work on is me. If the other person will not work on themselves, it might be time to move on for the sake of the kids. Kids are observant at any age, and mine are now grown, but they have always told me to do what makes me happy, because when I am happy I am nice, and they like me when I am nice..  I wish I could feel different, but I don't and I do love him in the fact that I don't want him to get run over by a truck, or have any harm come to him, but I am not feeling the spend the rest of your life with him kind of thing. Of course he did leave me for a year, and has deserted me at other times that I have needed him so maybe my story is a little different than yours, but in the end it is all the same... I want a LIFE... one that I can enjoy, and since it takes 2 people to work on a marriage and make it a happy one (and I know this from experience), moving on is sometimes the best option. Okay I have given my 2 cents worth, and I am sure there are people that will not agree with me, but that is okay because only I know how I feel inside.. and if I am miserable my family is miserable!


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

Keenwa said:


> I think we have every right to say that a relationship no longer serves our needs.


Why do you feel you have this right? Why do you feel you have the right to violate the agreement you already made (a lifetime contract)? Why do you feel the fight to inflict horrible pain on your innocent children? Why do you feel the right to break your word, your commitment, and your contract?



> Sometimes I wonder if it's harder to be in a relationship with someone that you love/like and care about but don't want to be with, because things are never "that bad" that you feel you have to leave. Apart from the depression from being in a relationship that isn't life giving. But surely life is more than just making it through the day in a sea of mediocrity, and dullness. *You deserve to be happy, you deserve to feel content, you deserve to be loved the way you want to be loved.*


Response to the bolded. First of all, inflicting pain and harm on one's own children does not tend to cause happiness. That's number one. Secondly, no one 'deserves' to run over other people in the pursuit of getting what they want. If you want money, are you entitled to rob a bank?


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

wilderness said:


> Stay married. You agreed to be married for a lifetime, honor your contract. Remember, this is the life that you chose. To even consider inflicting the destruction and pain of a divorce on your family just because your wife doesn't give you pins and needles is an extremely short sighted and imprudent idea. This is real life, not a romance novel or dramatic play. Chasing waterfalls for unicorns, puppy dogs, and ice cream cones is fine and dandy if its just you, but the emotional stability of your innocent children hangs in the balance.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, just stay married and be miserable for the rest of your fvcking life. Make your children watch you live your life unhappy, then watch them repeat it in their adult lives. Fvck happiness. 

Wilderness, you really baffle me. I guess you live your life in misery, so everyone else has to???


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

So nobody is going to ask if there's someone else? If this was a woman people would be all over that, and she'd be told that as a waw her hb has no idea. 
Having said that, I too think life is too short to be miserable. But are you sure your expectations of marriage are reasonable? What have you done to keep that spark with your wife? Are you heavily into porn? What do you think would be different about a woman you're in love with?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## [email protected] (Feb 12, 2014)

I'm heavily into life, my sex life is fine and there is no other woman, thank you very much. So I guess what it really comes down to is deciding what to do with the pain. Swallow it or cast it out for my wife and family to absorb. What I already knew. Thanks for all of your input here. I appreciate your time. I've heard all I need to hear. Best to you all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

3Xnocharm said:


> Yeah, just stay married and be miserable for the rest of your fvcking life. Make your children watch you live your life unhappy, then watch them repeat it in their adult lives. Fvck happiness.
> 
> Wilderness, you really baffle me. I guess you live your life in misery, so everyone else has to???


:iagree:

Totally agree. I finally got out of a miserable 20 year marriage where I was basically stuck in a roommate situation. *It was the best decision I ever made.* All you people who say to stay in the marriage and slog away in a miserable existence because you made a promise, I'm sorry but life just isn't that black and white.

Not only am I much happier, *my ex-husband is much happier too.* We are both in other relationships; he has found someone new who loves him the _right way_ and he deserves a chance at happiness every bit as much as I do.

Sure, the divorce was hard at the time, but every member of my family is much better off for it. My kids are much happier because their parents no longer fight or project hostile animosity, my kids adore both new significant others and enjoy spending time at each house, my kids finally get to see shining examples of what relationships are _supposed_ to be, and ex and I are both much happier in our current relationships.

Why stay and make everyone miserable, only to have your kids repeat the same messed up mistakes because it is the only thing they know?

Just my 2 cents...


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

3Xnocharm said:


> Yeah, just stay married and be miserable for the rest of your fvcking life. Make your children watch you live your life unhappy, then watch them repeat it in their adult lives. Fvck happiness.
> 
> Wilderness, you really baffle me. I guess you live your life in misery, so everyone else has to???


From OP, post #1:



> My wife is a wonderful person, mother and by general standards, a good wife.


That doesn't sound like unhappiness and misery to me.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

happy as a clam said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Totally agree. I finally got out of a miserable 20 year marriage where I was basically stuck in a roommate situation. *It was the best decision I ever made.* All you people who say to stay in the marriage and slog away in a miserable existence because you made a promise, I'm sorry but life just isn't that black and white.
> 
> ...


Divorce is not nearly the panacea that your portray it to be. Perhaps it is possible, perhaps even true in your situation, but the vast majority of divorces are horribly painful, devastating events that ruin lives. Some, many even, never recover from the horrors of divorce. A lot of those that never recover are innocent children.


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## Keenwa (Oct 26, 2013)

wilderness said:


> Why do you feel you have this right? Why do you feel you have the right to violate the agreement you already made (a lifetime contract)? Why do you feel the fight to inflict horrible pain on your innocent children? Why do you feel the right to break your word, your commitment, and your contract?
> 
> 
> 
> Response to the bolded. First of all, inflicting pain and harm on one's own children does not tend to cause happiness. That's number one. Secondly, no one 'deserves' to run over other people in the pursuit of getting what they want. If you want money, are you entitled to rob a bank?



Your arrogance and self righteousness aside, first of all I did not enter into a "LIFE LONG" contract. My marriage vows had nothing about "till death do us part" because I think it is a fundamentally flawed and short sighted concept to think we can marry someone for life and make that kind of agreement to stay together. So there you go. That said, even had I made such an agreement, I believe life is a journey and people change over time. It is completely ludicrous to think that we might be the same our whole lives.... 

As for inflicting pain on children, my experience has been that children of divorce whose parents act in a mature fashion usually fare very well, if not better than their nuclear family counterparts. THey certainly fare better than those who live with parents who dislike each other, and cannot show their children the example of a healthy, loving relationship between man and woman. Of course there's always the exception... the parents who never grew up themselves and like to spend their divorces slinging crap at each other like immature children on a playground. But these types of parents were like this before divorce and I don't see how staying together for those types is healthy either.

What our children need is not for us to be together at all costs because we signed some sort of idiotic contract years ago, it is for them to feel loved, supported and cared for by both parents, and this can be done whether the parents live in the same house or not. THey need us to respect each other as parents and people, people though we may not love each other, they love us both. That is how we can honour our children and help them grow into strong and loving adults.


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## Keenwa (Oct 26, 2013)

happy as a clam said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Totally agree. I finally got out of a miserable 20 year marriage where I was basically stuck in a roommate situation. *It was the best decision I ever made.* All you people who say to stay in the marriage and slog away in a miserable existence because you made a promise, I'm sorry but life just isn't that black and white.
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting this. It is very helpful.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

Keenwa said:


> Your arrogance and self righteousness aside, first of all I did not enter into a "LIFE LONG" contract. My marriage vows had nothing about "till death do us part" because I think it is a fundamentally flawed and short sighted concept to think we can marry someone for life and make that kind of agreement to stay together. .


I disagree. You did enter into a lifelong contract. Even if the vows did not explicitly state it, the very fact that one party has to sue the other to break the contract proves unequivocally that the contract is for life.



> So there you go. That said, even had I made such an agreement, I believe life is a journey and people change over time. It is completely ludicrous to think that we might be the same our whole lives....


Red herring. People changing does not in any way preclude them from being married.




> As for inflicting pain on children, my experience has been that children of divorce whose parents act in a mature fashion usually fare very well, if not better than their nuclear family counterparts.


I believe that you are only seeing what you want to see. Children of divorce tend to fair worse than children of nuclear families in every measurable category.



> THey certainly fare better than those who live with parents who dislike each other, and cannot show their children the example of a healthy, loving relationship between man and woman.


This is always the argument put forward by contract breaking apologists. It fails to account for the contract breaks _role_ in an unhappy marriage. If you don't want to be in an unloving marriage, for example, I suggest very simply that you love your husband.



> Of course there's always the exception... the parents who never grew up themselves...


I would argue that shirking one's commitments and contracts is the epitome of immature behavior. So by very definition those that break their marriage contracts are immature.



> What our children need is not for us to be together at all costs because we signed some sort of idiotic contract years ago,


Again, another red herring. No one is advocating for staying together at all costs. You are intentionally trying to portray being married as some horrible miserable plight. Said another way, martyr syndrome.http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/158833-leaver-martyr.html
As to the 'idiotic' contract, you are now trying to devalue the contract that _you agreed to_. Remember, this is the life that you chose.




> it is for them to feel loved, supported and cared for by both parents,


Why would a child feel loved by a parent that abandons them or abandons their mother or father? Let's not be naive here, divorce destroys children.



> and this can be done whether the parents live in the same house or not.


Except harming one's own children doesn't tend to make them feel loved.



> THey need us to respect each other as parents and people, people though we may not love each other, they love us both.


Why? Why would they respect a parent that does something so horrible as to abandon their own family?



> That is how we can honour our children and help them grow into strong and loving adults


Honor is not intentionally harming someone.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Wilderness,

It's very easy to make these very judgmental statements when you are in a marriage that _works_.

Have you ever been in a marriage that _doesn't work?_ That destroys people's lives and kills souls?

Because your comments might be very different if you have.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

happy as a clam said:


> Wilderness,
> 
> It's very easy to make these very judgmental statements when you are in a marriage that _works_.
> 
> ...


I'm divorced. But let's focus on the original poster. Here is what he said in post #1:



> My wife is a wonderful person, mother and by general standards, *a good wife*.


How is that a marriage that destroys lives or kills souls?


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## Keenwa (Oct 26, 2013)

wilderness said:


> I'm divorced. But let's focus on the original poster. Here is what he said in post #1:
> 
> 
> 
> How is that a marriage that destroys lives or kills souls?


If your contract was for life why did you not honor it? I'm confused given your reply to my previous post.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

Keenwa said:


> If your contract was for life why did you not honor it? I'm confused given your reply to my previous post.


My xwife didn't honor it. I honored it.


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## Keenwa (Oct 26, 2013)

Sorry bud, but your reasoning is flawed here. And simply because one party needs to so call "sue" the other does not mean it is a contract which must be honoured for life. People breech contracts all the time. People do not live up to the terms of contracts causing them to be breached, a divorce is the same thing. 

But it sounds like we have fundamental differences of opinion, no one knows "THE ANSWER" to life and certainly no one knows the answer to other people's lives. You cannot and should not judge how other people live, worry about yourself and instead of passing judgement on others, offer help and advice. Maybe you should share with the OP how your divorce went, why it happened, and how you are doing now, instead of being so didactic and condescending. 

You are assuming that divorce harms children, that is not true, what harms children is being judged, not being cared for, not being loved, etc. SHowing your children that you want and need to have your feelings honored can only teach them to do the same. 

calling people who get divorced "immature" is also an assumption, perhaps you are projecting here. It takes a lot of maturity to come to grips with divorce (if it's done right)... a hell of a lot more maturity than the mentality required to stay in an unhappy marriage

Getting divorced does not equate abandoning your family, it equates telling another fully grown adult that you do not want to live with them. Point blank. 

My father abandoned our family. That is childish... he left my mother with nothing. That is immature. Two adults who separate amicably and commit to their children is not being immature. 




wilderness said:


> I disagree. You did enter into a lifelong contract. Even if the vows did not explicitly state it, the very fact that one party has to sue the other to break the contract proves unequivocally that the contract is for life.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

HYPOCRISY at its finest!!!!!!!!!!!


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

Keenwa said:


> Sorry bud, but your reasoning is flawed here. And simply because one party needs to so call "sue" the other does not mean it is a contract which must be honoured for life. People breech contracts all the time. People do not live up to the terms of contracts causing them to be breached, a divorce is the same thing.


Breaching a contract is dishonoring the contract. Just because other people do it, that somehow makes it right? Based on that logic, do you also advocate for murder and rape?



> You are assuming that divorce harms children, that is not true, what harms children is being judged, not being cared for, not being loved, etc. SHowing your children that you want and need to have your feelings honored can only teach them to do the same.


Of course divorce harms children. Deeply. To believe otherwise is delusion.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

Keenwa said:


> calling people who get divorced "immature" is also an assumption, perhaps you are projecting here. It takes a lot of maturity to come to grips with divorce (if it's done right)... a hell of a lot more maturity than the mentality required to stay in an unhappy marriage
> 
> Getting divorced does not equate abandoning your family, it equates telling another fully grown adult that you do not want to live with them. Point blank.
> 
> My father abandoned our family. That is childish... he left my mother with nothing. That is immature. Two adults who separate amicably and commit to their children is not being immature.


Sueing or otherwise compelling divorce is exactly abandoning ones family. Parents don't live together after divorce. As such one either abandons ones family or violently compels the spouse they are divorcing to abandon their family. That's not right., no matter how you try and spin it.!


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

wilderness said:


> Breaching a contract is dishonoring the contract. Just because other people do it, that somehow makes it right? Based on that logic, do you also advocate for murder and rape?
> 
> 
> 
> Of course divorce harms children. Deeply. To believe otherwise is delusion.


REALLY?? I am a child of divorce...that was one of the HAPPIEST days of my life when that divorce was finalized! You cannot generalize such a thing! 



wilderness said:


> Sueing or otherwise compelling divorce is exactly abandoning ones family. Parents don't live together after divorce. As such one either abandons ones family or violently compels the spouse they are divorcing to abandon their family. That's not right., no matter how you try and spin it.!


I find it offensive that you post things like this to lay guilt on people who are in already painful situations in their lives. Their story, their life...is not yours. Who are you to judge? And the fact that you are indeed divorced nullifies a lot of these judgements you pass on.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

3Xnocharm said:


> REALLY??
> 
> 
> I find it offensive that you post things like this to lay guilt on people who are in already painful situations in their lives. Their story, their life...is not yours. Who are you to judge? And the fact that you are indeed divorced nullifies a lot of these judgements you pass on.


And I find it offensive that you find it offensive. In my opinion you are tacitly endorsing the truly horrible and criminal repercussions of modern day divorce. Those repercussions include violence, theft, and the blatant harm of innocent children. As to my divorce, it was forced on me. It was not my choice.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

wilderness said:


> And I find it offensive that you find it offensive. In my opinion you are tacitly endorsing the truly horrible and criminal repercussions of modern day divorce. Those repercussions include violence, theft, and the blatant harm of innocent children. As to my divorce, it was forced on me. It was not my choice.


How convenient you blank out my statement that I was a child of divorce! A HAPPY child of divorce! None of my divorces included any violence, theft, or blatant hard of any children! That is one of the most ABSURD things I have ever read here! Maybe your ex is a complete nut job so therefore you think that everyone's experiences must be as fvcked up as yours.


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## [email protected] (Feb 12, 2014)

Wilderness. You seem to be so eager to express yourself here. Why did your wife leave you? What were her reasons? Did you ever take the time to listen? Did you ever take the time to hear? Just curious.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

3Xnocharm said:


> How convenient you blank out my statement that I was a child of divorce! A HAPPY child of divorce! None of my divorces included any violence, theft, or blatant hard of any children! That is one of the most ABSURD things I have ever read here! Maybe your ex is a complete nut job so therefore you think that everyone's experiences must be as fvcked up as yours.


I was a child of divorce as well. The very notion that most children will benefit from having one of their parents forcibly extracted from their lives at least 50% of the time is one that I find preposterous. As to violence, there is an element of violence in nearly every present day divorce. As proof, what happens when a judge orders a man out of his own home and he refuses to leave? Men with guns show up and FORCE him out.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> And this is how I feel. If I do nothing then nothing changes. I don't want to hurt anyone or cause the type of bitterness I've heard here but it seems to me that in the long run, everybody wins. I don't appreciate my wife the way I should be because I can't. She and I have different ideas about what love and life are about even though both of us are good people. I want my kids to be independent. She says she wants the same but loves them so much that she does everything for them. My son is ten years old and can barely tie his shoes. I've talked to her about it over and over but nothing changes. All the while she feels overwhelmed. I want to love and dream like a kid out of school and she is comfortable with where she's at. Comfortable with only getting herself together when I get frustrated enough to make a big deal about it or threaten to leave. It's not healthy for her or myself. I feel as though I have given everything to provide our dream of having a family (her only dream) but have to fight to get her to help with my dreams. I don't want out of any responsibility, I just want my passion back. Is that so wrong???
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This really puzzles me, how does a father blame a mother for a child not being able to tie his shoes?

Can he bait a hook? Can he rake leaves? Take out the trash? Pick up his room? I was mowing with a riding mower at eleven.

Can he catch/kick a football, hit a baseball etc.?

You are the leader/protector of your family. Your best idea is to dump the family and you are prepared to let another man, whoever your wife may find, 
be the man in your kids lives.

I had two high school guys working for me one summer. Their parents were both divorced. They told me one of he saddest things I ever heard. They said all the divorced kids hung out together.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

happy as a clam said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Totally agree. I finally got out of a miserable 20 year marriage where I was basically stuck in a roommate situation. *It was the best decision I ever made.* All you people who say to stay in the marriage and slog away in a miserable existence because you made a promise, I'm sorry but life just isn't that black and white.
> 
> ...


Number one, you are putting words in posters mouth they didn't say. Then you argue against it.

Also assuming you are over forty, the odds both spouses remarry are remote and the odds a forty year old woman will remarry is dropping ike a rock and plummeting with every new year.

Op also said his wife likes sex, she's a good person, he might have even said she's wonderful. Good luck finding that combo again......but she puts him in so much pain.........go figure.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

3Xnocharm said:


> How convenient you blank out my statement that I was a child of divorce! A HAPPY child of divorce! None of my divorces included any violence, theft, or blatant hard of any children! That is one of the most ABSURD things I have ever read here! Maybe your ex is a complete nut job so therefore you think that everyone's experiences must be as fvcked up as yours.


You are saying you are a child of divorce and now you have had multiple divorces. Is that correct?

Notably, no one has suggested that divorce is never an option. As a matter of fact, I have never heard anyone suggest that in my life.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Chaparral said:


> Number one, you are putting words in posters mouth they didn't say.


I did not put words into anyone's mouth. I simply told *my* story in the hopes that it might be helpful to someone. 



> Also assuming you are over forty, the odds both spouses remarry are remote and the odds a forty year old woman will remarry is dropping ike a rock and plummeting with every new year.


Who said anything about remarriage? I said both me and my ex-husband are in long-term happy relationships. I can't speak for him, but I am over 40 and have no intention of ever marrying again. So I really could care less about your statistics or the odds of remarrying.



> Op also said his wife likes sex, she's a good person, he might have even said she's wonderful. Good luck finding that combo again....


Well, my ex-husband certainly found it with someone else, and I am beyond happy in my relationship, so I really don't think it's all that difficult to find a quality person who you love and who loves you back.

I have discovered that many people on this site want to stir up controversy and crush hope.


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## Keenwa (Oct 26, 2013)

wilderness said:


> And I find it offensive that you find it offensive. In my opinion you are tacitly endorsing the truly horrible and criminal repercussions of modern day divorce. Those repercussions include violence, theft, and the blatant harm of innocent children. As to my divorce, it was forced on me. It was not my choice.


It is appearing to me that you are in serious denial and inability to see your role in your divorce. It is a harsh reality but a good hard look in the mirror might answer the question for you as to why your divorce was forced upon you. What is interesting is that you feel like it was forced upon you, you had no choice yet you feel it is ok to criticize others for wanting to leave partners like yourself who are not willing to look in the mirror as to what role you played in ending your marriage. 

The OP said his wife is a wonderful person. IF you love someone as a person but not a partner that is ok, and it's ok to want that person to find love, and as well as you to want to find love. Perhaps you are projecting your issues on other people. Is it possible wilderness, just possible, that you can love someone but not be in love with them? you can love someone as a person but not feel like they can honour what you need in life? 

There is nothing "criminal" about divorce. Hopefully one day you can move beyond your anger, frustration and victimization and see your role in this.


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## Keenwa (Oct 26, 2013)

Chaparral said:


> .
> 
> I had two high school guys working for me one summer. Their parents were both divorced. They told me one of he saddest things I ever heard. They said all the divorced kids hung out together.


We all have stories like this. I have stories of working with people whose parents stayed together "for the kids" and they were heartbroken when they moved out for college and their parents divorced, they felt like their parents lied to them all those years. There is no right answer. I didn't know any kids who had happy families when I was young... now that I'm older, I don't know many couples who are happy... 

There are no "RIGHT" answers in this. Or in life, marriage, raising children etc. 

I was from a "broken home" in highschool and the most interesting kids came from "broken homes". So there you go. If you base your judgement and your actions on your past experiences it doesn't work so well. All you can do is what is right for you, your partner, your family, etc at any given moment. I know as parents we so often give ourselves away , we lose ourselves in our relationships and our family, and it seems to be when we decide to find ourselves back that we start thinking if "this is it"... 

But then again my philosophy in life is there are no "wrong" paths to take in life if we can keep in touch with how we truly feel about things.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

Keenwa said:


> It is appearing to me that you are in serious denial and inability to see your role in your divorce. It is a harsh reality but a good hard look in the mirror might answer the question for you as to why your divorce was forced upon you. What is interesting is that you feel like it was forced upon you, you had no choice yet you feel it is ok to criticize others for wanting to leave partners like yourself who are not willing to look in the mirror as to what role you played in ending your marriage.
> 
> .


What in the world are you talking about? Factually, my divorce was imposed/forced upon me.



> The OP said his wife is a wonderful person. IF you love someone as a person but not a partner that is ok,


Sure it's ok. But in the case of OP, he chose to marry and have a family with this person. It's NOT ok to abandon his family for no reason, imo. 



> and it's ok to want that person to find love, and as well as you to want to find love.


Come on now. Someone wanting to help their spouse does not break their heart, take their children away from, and abandon them.




> Perhaps you are projecting your issues on other people. Is it possible wilderness, just possible, that you can love someone but not be in love with them?


Sure it's possible. So what? Marriage is not a Danielle Steele novel. Do you really think that it's realistic for couples married for life to be in a perpetual state of 'in love'? 



> There is nothing "criminal" about divorce. Hopefully one day you can move beyond your anger, frustration and victimization and see your role in this


The entire system is criminal. And it's the worst kind of criminal. Here are some examples of this:

The system arbitrarily takes custody away from innocent parents. Or worse, it takes custody away from parents based on gender. That's not justice, that's kidnapping! That's not right , no matter how you try and spin it.

The system forces innocent people out homes that they own, yet they continue to force those people to pay for those homes. That's not justice, that's theft!

Almost all divorces are negotiated using coercion and many allow for no consideration for one of the parties. That's not justice, that's fraud!


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Keenwa said:


> It is appearing to me that you are in serious denial and inability to see your role in your divorce. It is a harsh reality but a good hard look in the mirror might answer the question for you as to why your divorce was forced upon you. What is interesting is that you feel like it was forced upon you, you had no choice yet you feel it is ok to criticize others for wanting to leave partners like yourself who are not willing to look in the mirror as to what role you played in ending your marriage.
> 
> The OP said his wife is a wonderful person. IF you love someone as a person but not a partner that is ok, and it's ok to want that person to find love, and as well as you to want to find love. Perhaps you are projecting your issues on other people. Is it possible wilderness, just possible, that you can love someone but not be in love with them? you can love someone as a person but not feel like they can honour what you need in life?
> 
> There is nothing "criminal" about divorce. Hopefully one day you can move beyond your anger, frustration and victimization and see your role in this.


Has it crossed your mind to go and read wilderness' threads instead of assuming you know what someone is all about with out having any actual information.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

wilderness said:


> Divorce is not nearly the panacea that your portray it to be. Perhaps it is possible, perhaps even true in your situation, but *the vast majority of divorces are horribly painful, devastating events that ruin lives. Some*, many even, *never recover from the horrors of divorce. A lot of those that never recover are innocent children*.


Yeah! It's a good thing all of those innocent children are living in biological families that stay intact...even if it does involve alcoholism, or cheating, or a parent who stays out 'til the middle of the night to avoid coming home to a place/person/situation they despise, or screaming matches, or fighting, or the cops being called, or emotional abuse, or physical abuse, or anything crappy like that!

Good thing ALL those biological families are like "Lassie" and "Leave it to Beaver" and "Father Knows Best" all rolled-up into one! :smthumbup:


Maybe I'm dead-wrong ('cuz your profile is very blank), but you write like a guy whose wife left him and he's not moved on. And I'm sorry if I'm wrong, but you ALWAYS espouse staying together NO MATTER WHAT (abuse? what the hell's that?!?), but you never have any proof or logical reasoning to buttress your opinions. Just ominous generic 'doom' messages that ALL divorces ruin EVERYONE's lives!

*ETA:* Well, after finishing the thread from where I quoted you, I see that, indeed, you ARE a guy whose wife left him and you've never moved on. It's obvious you have an ax to grind (not unlike Zappy 82000). You're zealots for 'marriage at all costs' because it's what YOU wanted, and you feel you got cheated out of it because your wives did not want that.

If you're REALLY interested in helping posters here (which I'm not sure you are, you may just want to vent), why don't you post 'hey, representing the spouses who get left behind here...' and then present your POV. I'm sure that given the right context, a poster would find value in your POV, but presenting it as if you're an oracle for how EVERYBODY needs to live just runs people off (like the original OP for this thread).


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## Keenwa (Oct 26, 2013)

Chaparral said:


> Has it crossed your mind to go and read wilderness' threads instead of assuming you know what someone is all about with out having any actual information.


No, do you read everyone's original posts before replying to their posts on another thread?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Keenwa said:


> No, do you read everyone's original posts before replying to their posts on another thread?


I try to avoid making personal attacks on people and try to avoid belittling other posters. I find many people here are here to get help with their pain. But yes, I often check out posters threads to see if it sheds light on their viewpoint.

For example, several folks have completely misinterpreted wilderness' and my view on divorce as being totally opposed to divorce.

A google search for the statistics regarding children of divorce, and the children that have  parents that commit infidelity, paint a gruesome picture.

The biggest reason religious counselors counsel against divorce is that unless adultery, abandonment or abuse is involved, divorce is a sin that is almost impossible to be forgiven for. The second biggest reason is because of how prevalent child abuse is among step parents.

My biggest reason would be the step parent issue.

Here is a link to a woman that has been putting opinion videos on youtube. Check her out. How feminism conned society, and other not-so-tall tales... - YouTube I haven't had a chance to check out but two or three of her videos but she actually puts a lot of thought behind her remarks about the bias against men.

I think the most troubling statistic about divorce is the fact that about four out of five divorces are instigated by women. Why isn't it fifty/ fifty?

Check out the infidelity section and see how men are treated by wayward wives. Lying to get a protective order against her husband is more than common.

From what little I have read about wilderness' situation it looks like one of the worst cases I have seen. I think he needs a new lawyer.

Vaya con Dios

Chap


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> Yeah! It's a good thing all of those innocent children are living in biological families that stay intact...even if it does involve alcoholism, or cheating, or a parent who stays out 'til the middle of the night to avoid coming home to a place/person/situation they despise, or screaming matches, or fighting, or the cops being called, or emotional abuse, or physical abuse, or anything crappy like that!
> 
> Good thing ALL those biological families are like "Lassie" and "Leave it to Beaver" and "Father Knows Best" all rolled-up into one! :smthumbup:
> 
> ...


Did you even read the original post on this thread? OP said that his wife is a "wonderful woman".


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

I think the OP also has to also realize that will he be okay if his wife down the road is dating someone else and another man is in their lives? 

It often amazes me how lots of times people leave marriages and then get all bent out of shape because god forbid their ex is dating again....

A cousin of my husbands cheated on his wife with a friend of theirs and left his marriage and is currently living with his AP and I heard from his brother that he is not happy that his exwife is dating a guy who is a little younger than her...(about 5 years or so)...and I thought too bad buddy you are the one that chose to cheat and leave your marriage and young kids.


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