# Avice about "the talk" soon



## keepittogether (Jun 8, 2018)

Hi All - in a nutshell - we've been married 25 years with three kids under 15. I've pretty much known it's over since about 2012 or so. Since then we've done two marriage retreats, marriage and personal counseling, etc. The baggage from our marriage is really heavy duty. Past alcoholism for the majority of the marriage (he's now almost 2-years sober), I've had major incidents in my own life that have caused PTSD and I've tried really hard to deal with that but he's not the supportive type of person. He works full time and makes good money. I have always stayed home and worked bringing in part time income. I have a Bachelors degree but haven't been in the working world in 20 years.

We "separated" once before - meaning I moved into the guest room for about a month until we decided to make another go at it and it seemed to be going fine until I just couldn't deal anymore. My PTSD is strongly tied into past things that happened during childbearing years and the alcoholism. Basically I feel I've given all I can and have nothing left. I moved back into the spare room but we haven't had the talk. I told him I wanted to talk but he only said he would if it was "productive and lead to a positive outcome for the family," meaning I stop being stupid and get back to the way things were.

When I tell him I want to legally separate and divorce he is going to say, "How does it feel to ruin this family?" What's it like to ruin the kid's life?" Stuff like that and I find it hard to keep my emotions in check. He gets in my face and I don't know how to go about this in a calm, productive way. Can someone offer me help or advice?
TIA


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

Are your kids aware of how unhappy you are?

Before my separation and divorce, the hardest time for me was the years after I knew I was done...so for you, these last 6 years have been brutal. I also stayed primarily for the sake of my kids. I think most of us do. We love them more than we love ourselves that's for sure, and I'm OK with that! 

When you have the talk again...try to do it as calmly as possible. Start off by addressing the affect on the kids so it gives him less fuel to get in your face about that part of it. Nothing about the talk ever goes well. I had about 50 of them. Then finally one day, you stop talking about it, and go get the paperwork, and you file.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Regarding PTSD, have you tried EMDR? I've known a couple of people who have had wonderful results from it.

When you speak to your husband, you don't go into the talk asking for his permission or trying to get on the same page. That is an exercise in futility. You are divorcing because you are not on the same page. Simply explain to him what you are doing. No accusations. No telling him why. He knows. Let him have his beliefs and be willing to move on without resolution.

Before having the talk be prepared and have the papers ready to file. Do not have the talk until you are explaining that you are going to file within the week and want to give him the heads up so he has time to process what is happening and to prepare. You are having this talk because you care about him. This is a favor instead of him getting served by a stranger out of the blue. Make sure you have copies of all legal paperwork regarding bank accounts, loans, credit cards, marriage license, birth certificates, etc. Read at least one book on divorce in your state so you are aware of your rights and responsibilities as well as the process for getting divorced in your state.

The best way to keep this peaceful is to no longer engage in argument. He doesn't get a say in this decision. You can negotiate terms, but he doesn't get to decide whether or not you are going to divorce him.

That's is the harsh reality for him. You should not worry about his response. If he gets belligerent, walk away. Do not engage in argument with him. Above all, do not get into a yelling match with him. This simply isn't working and you are unable to continue. You wish him the best and want to amicably co-parent, but you cannot be married to him anymore. End of story.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

CynthiaDe said:


> When you speak to your husband, you don't go into the talk asking for his permission or trying to get on the same page. That is an exercise in futility. You are divorcing because you are not on the same page. Simply explain to him what you are doing. No accusations. No telling him why. He knows. Let him have his beliefs and be willing to move on without resolution.


Especially this^^.

When you frame your conversation as though it requires his permission, he is simply saying "no" without actually saying "no".

"Husband, it is clear you and I are wrong for each other. For that reason, I will be initiating divorce on x day. Between now and the time you are served, please start thinking about how we can fairly divide custody and assets."

Then walk away and do something casual...like make a cup of tea or a sandwich.

When he tries to reengage about how you are ruining the family, or anything other than the discussion of dividing custody/assets, simply hold your hand up and tell him, "Discussions about how to improve a marriage are for two people who are committed to maintaining the marriage. Since that does not apply to us, I won't be discussing it with you."

Then walk away.

If he loses his temper: "I am not okay with x (yelling, blaming, screaming, belittling, etc.)."

Then walk away again.

Do you see the difference? The way you are doing it now indicates your mind is not made up. The above suggestion shows decisiveness. Most importantly, it does not lay blame at his feet, but rather informs him the marriage is over.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

farsidejunky said:


> Do you see the difference? The way you are doing it now indicates your mind is not made up. The above suggestion shows decisiveness. Most importantly, it does not lay blame at his feet, but rather informs him the marriage is over.


Exactly. You are not blaming. You are taking responsibility for your choice and moving on with your life. the perspective that you come from in approaching the discussion and the situation as a whole will make a difference for you in how you are able to move through this as peacefully as possible. He does not have to be at peace in order for you to be at peace. His feelings are not your responsibility. Of course, you don't blame, yell, or otherwise become hostile and adversarial towards him. That does leave you with some culpability. But if you are calm and not attacking him whatsoever, you can be at peace that you are conducting yourself honorably about the situation no matter what his response is.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

keepittogether said:


> Hi All - in a nutshell - we've been married 25 years with three kids under 15. I've pretty much known it's over since about 2012 or so. Since then we've done two marriage retreats, marriage and personal counseling, etc. The baggage from our marriage is really heavy duty. Past alcoholism for the majority of the marriage (he's now almost 2-years sober), I've had major incidents in my own life that have caused PTSD and I've tried really hard to deal with that but he's not the supportive type of person. He works full time and makes good money. I have always stayed home and worked bringing in part time income. I have a Bachelors degree but haven't been in the working world in 20 years.
> 
> We "separated" once before - meaning I moved into the guest room for about a month until we decided to make another go at it and it seemed to be going fine until I just couldn't deal anymore. My PTSD is strongly tied into past things that happened during childbearing years and the alcoholism. Basically I feel I've given all I can and have nothing left. I moved back into the spare room but we haven't had the talk. I told him I wanted to talk but he only said he would if it was "productive and lead to a positive outcome for the family," meaning I stop being stupid and get back to the way things were.
> 
> ...


This is classic passive aggressive manipulation. I'd be tempted to say "I dunno, how did you feel when you spent years ruining our family with your addiction?" That wouldn't be productive, but I don't deal well with that crap.

Does he often try to guilt and manipulate you like that.

Addiction is like infidelity. The addict might sober up and be remorseful (though he doesn't sound remorseful, just sober), but sometimes they have just caused too much damage, and they have to deal with it.


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## SentHereForAReason (Oct 25, 2017)

Ok, maybe to get more granular as to how you can approach this. 

You say he has been sober for two years. Let's focus on that. How have the last two years been? What have the issues in the last two years been? 

With alcohol 'currently' removed from the equation that takes it away from the present time, so it can't be used as a crutch at least today so I want to help understand with now, supposed clear heads, what is causing the agony in the past two years or is the offenses from the time prior to that just too much to get over?

I think if you can point out to him, that even in the past two years, since he is going to probably use getting sober as a benefit for him, what the issues still are.


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## keepittogether (Jun 8, 2018)

Thank you all for the advice so far. This has helped me frame my perspective on approaching him. Our separation HAS to be in house. He has already stated he is "not leaving no matter how miserable I make it" (so far I have barely spoken to him and basically just have acted the same, washed his clothes, cooked, run the house, etc. I'm courteous for the kid's sake). So he's not leaving. 

Based on the above advice, do I not have the talk until I save enough money to actually draw the papers up? Does he know this is a real separation? Edited because in my state I thought we needed to be separated six months but we have no limit. we can divorce right away if we want.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

keepittogether said:


> Thank you all for the advice so far. This has helped me frame my perspective on approaching him. Our separation HAS to be in house. He has already stated he is "not leaving no matter how miserable I make it" (so far I have barely spoken to him and basically just have acted the same, washed his clothes, cooked, run the house, etc. I'm courteous for the kid's sake). So he's not leaving.
> 
> Based on the above advice, do I not have the talk until I save enough money to actually draw the papers up? Does he know this is a real separation? Edited because in my state I thought we needed to be separated six months but we have no limit. we can divorce right away if we want.


You say you haven’t worked in twenty years but all your kids are under fifteen.What were you doing during the five years in between.What was preventing you from working before you had children.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I am likely not telling you anything you do not know with this, but he is projecting on to you exactly how he will behave with an in-house separation.

Consider yourself (fore)warned.



keepittogether said:


> Thank you all for the advice so far. This has helped me frame my perspective on approaching him. Our separation HAS to be in house. He has already stated he is "not leaving no matter how miserable I make it" (so far I have barely spoken to him and basically just have acted the same, washed his clothes, cooked, run the house, etc. I'm courteous for the kid's sake). So he's not leaving.
> 
> Based on the above advice, do I not have the talk until I save enough money to actually draw the papers up? Does he know this is a real separation? Edited because in my state I thought we needed to be separated six months but we have no limit. we can divorce right away if we want.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Look at your state's website on divorce. They will spell out the basics for you there on how the process works. Also they should have forms you can fill out and file. Download the forms and use them to guide you on gathering all the data you will need. As CynthiaDe wrote, get all the important documents safeguarded, too. None of this is terribly difficult but it does take time. The forms will be very helpful in your preparations even if you use a lawyer.

And I do recommend you use a lawyer because of custody and child support. You want to be sure this is done 100% correctly. Legal stuff is as much about having the correct words as anything, and we non-lawyers don't know what we don't know. I wouldn't use the online legal forms from those paid services either. At the very least you should consult with an attorney so that you know how things work where you live (each county could be quite different based on the judges there), and so you know what your rights and obligations are. Make sure the attorney approves of whatever documents you file for custody and child support. You don't need to pay attorneys to fight over everything, but you really need to at least consult a bit with one.

My kids were all adults when I divorced, and our divorce was quite simple and amicable. I still consulted with an attorney ahead of time to be sure I knew what my position was, and to write up some of the paperwork to be sure it was air tight.

I would suggest you talk to a therapist also. This person can help you with how to deal with your H. I found it very helpful even for how to word some things so it was effective and not inflammatory.

I also highly recommend the book "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty" by M. Smith. It is full of verbal techniques. It is a lot more than the title suggests. Your local library may have it, too.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

The best way to keep the peace is to file...

I was on the other side and the in-house separation for the one who doesn't want it is a horrible way to live. The normalcy made it suffering at it's worst... a true limbo of unsure intent and unmindful practice of daily wonder if there is not something salvageable. In the end I believe my ex thought I would adapt to a roommate status since I provided the majority of not just income but support for the major percentage of the day-to-day what came (chores, recreation) and she had no desire to do the work to end it... existing as it were was good enough.

I filed because I finally believed what she told me she felt about the relationship, if not I would still be married, unliked and unloved.

Suffering might be an unmindful distraction from time to time, but I wouldn't want to do it by choice.

If you really feel that way... be merciful.


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## keepittogether (Jun 8, 2018)

Andy1001 said:


> You say you haven’t worked in twenty years but all your kids are under fifteen.What were you doing during the five years in between. What was preventing you from working before you had children.


I left "office" work to work from home. I've been working from home for the past 20 years while raising my kids.



> How have the last two years been? What have the issues in the last two years been?


There's been ups and downs I guess. I had to really make sure when he quit drinking he was quitting because HE knew HE had a problem. He claims he did quit because of this, but in a recent text to me he referenced quitting drinking "hasn't helped our situation" so I sometimes thinks he resents me for it. I believe he has pent up anger issues because of some of my anxieties and fears. He doesn't understand them and thinks there is a fix. In therapy we talked about there possibly never being a fix and he seemed okay. I think for me I knew it would be over. I almost want to let him go and be happy with someone. I WANT him to just be with someone who will fulfill him but he is STUCK on together forever no. matter. what.



> This is classic passive aggressive manipulation. I'd be tempted to say "I dunno, how did you feel when you spent years ruining our family with your addiction?" That wouldn't be productive, but I don't deal well with that crap.
> 
> Does he often try to guilt and manipulate you like that.


YES. A lot. He hates the little things like I didn't say goodnight or I didn't greet him when he came in. I can never ever win an argument so I stopped arguing.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

You deserve better than this.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

> Does he often try to guilt and manipulate you like that.





> YES. A lot.


Then unfortunately, when you talk about separation, or file, he will assume that what you are doing is trying to be manipulative, to get him to do what you want him to. He won't believe you genuinely want out.


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## keepittogether (Jun 8, 2018)

> Then unfortunately, when you talk about separation, or file, he will assume that what you are doing is trying to be manipulative, to get him to do what you want him to. He won't believe you genuinely want out.


I think he knows it's coming. He's digging in his heels. I'm just really scared because I do not have the financial upper hand. The only thing I can do is squirrel away a little bit each paycheck and hide it away to pay for the lawyer, but all the lawyers want an initial fee of $250 then the $4500 retainer.

I have a feeling I am in for a long ride.....

Thank you all. At least I am not alone. Because in reality world I am very much alone.


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## Davidmidwest (Nov 22, 2016)

keepittogether said:


> Hi All - in a nutshell - we've been married 25 years with three kids under 15. I've pretty much known it's over since about 2012 or so. Since then we've done two marriage retreats, marriage and personal counseling, etc. The baggage from our marriage is really heavy duty. Past alcoholism for the majority of the marriage (he's now almost 2-years sober), I've had major incidents in my own life that have caused PTSD and I've tried really hard to deal with that but he's not the supportive type of person. He works full time and makes good money. I have always stayed home and worked bringing in part time income. I have a Bachelors degree but haven't been in the working world in 20 years.
> 
> We "separated" once before - meaning I moved into the guest room for about a month until we decided to make another go at it and it seemed to be going fine until I just couldn't deal anymore. My PTSD is strongly tied into past things that happened during childbearing years and the alcoholism. Basically I feel I've given all I can and have nothing left. I moved back into the spare room but we haven't had the talk. I told him I wanted to talk but he only said he would if it was "productive and lead to a positive outcome for the family," meaning I stop being stupid and get back to the way things were.
> 
> ...


Hi Tia,

You have a family, good, you seem to want to salavag it and he does too. that is good sign. both of you listen to the books on CD on Dr. Laura's book on Proper Caring and feeding of marriage. a good book to let you know what you are missing in relating. "beware it may bring you both to tears when it informs what it is to love and how to do it". it did for me. Then read by John Gottman. The seven principles for making marriage work, how to make love last how to overcome betrayal and build trust, and ten lessons to transform your marriage. Also get to a John Gottman marriage retreat... Try it. It may transform the marriage. Davidmidest. hotml good luck.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn (Feb 21, 2013)

keepittogether said:


> I think he knows it's coming. He's digging in his heels. I'm just really scared because I do not have the financial upper hand. The only thing I can do is squirrel away a little bit each paycheck and hide it away to pay for the lawyer, but all the lawyers want an initial fee of $250 then the $4500 retainer.
> 
> I have a feeling I am in for a long ride.....
> 
> Thank you all. At least I am not alone. Because in reality world I am very much alone.


You are in for a long ride. He does not have to cooperate and be friendly in the dissolution of the marriage. I suspect he is never going to believe that you only want out over the past as he took steps to change. But that being said cooperation or not if you want a divorce you have to take it. With the amount of time you two are together I am guessing he will be quite bitter and angry and that is just something you and the children will have to live with. As you divorce him and after you will have zero say in how he interacts with you, the children or anyone else. Start getting use to that. 

Good luck.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

keepittogether said:


> I left "office" work to work from home. I've been working from home for the past 20 years while raising my kids.
> 
> 
> There's been ups and downs I guess. I had to really make sure when he quit drinking he was quitting because HE knew HE had a problem. He claims he did quit because of this, but in a recent text to me he referenced quitting drinking "hasn't helped our situation" so I sometimes thinks he resents me for it. I believe he has pent up anger issues because of some of my anxieties and fears. He doesn't understand them and thinks there is a fix. In therapy we talked about there possibly never being a fix and he seemed okay. I think for me I knew it would be over. I almost want to let him go and be happy with someone. I WANT him to just be with someone who will fulfill him but he is STUCK on together forever no. matter. what.
> ...


Is he working a program such as AA? Is he doing any step program, if not he is basically a 'dry drunk' and they are the worst kind tbh. Suggest he does a program, more for you and the kids than him. This will open his eyes to the damage he has done, particularly in step 4 onward when they have to consider all the people they have hurt etc. Meanwhile you do the Al Anon. Your problems step from his abusive behavior over 20 years probably precipitated by his alcohol addiction and the roller coaster it put you all on. You have PTSD because of this (been there due to alcoholic H who is now in recovery as he works a program).

I would suggest you also join SoberRecovery.com to read and talk to others going through the same thing. Addiction takes a terrible toll on a marriage and often normal marriage counselling etc will not work.

You sound like you are done and that is perfectly reasonable but before you and your kids take all the baggage with you (which you will do), work on yourself through Al Anon. If he does a program there is a chance you can end the marriage on an amicable footing.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Davidmidwest said:


> Hi Tia,
> 
> You have a family, good, you seem to want to salavag it and he does too. that is good sign. both of you listen to the books on CD on Dr. Laura's book on Proper Caring and feeding of marriage. a good book to let you know what you are missing in relating. "beware it may bring you both to tears when it informs what it is to love and how to do it". it did for me. Then read by John Gottman. The seven principles for making marriage work, how to make love last how to overcome betrayal and build trust, and ten lessons to transform your marriage. Also get to a John Gottman marriage retreat... Try it. It may transform the marriage. Davidmidest. hotml good luck.


I'm sorry David but these books are good in situations with normal marital problems. A marriage which endured over 20 years of abusive addiction is an entirely different animal and those books will not help.


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## jlcrome (Nov 5, 2017)

I think it be best to move out on your own. Then after 3 months of separation completely then drop the news. You may be putting a bad situation worse by dropping the news while under the same roof. I think out of the house separation helps to clear the mind and see things better. Just think what life would be like if you are still under the same roof a living hell for months.


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