# How long is the road to recovery?



## Pleaseineedhelp (Nov 26, 2017)

My marriage is a mess, in Feb my husband announced he wanted to leave the marriage when the kids are out of high school, so three years... I was devastated but have decided to use that time to try to save our marriage, or at least improve my role in it.

One of the issues we have is sex, or lack of it. We have been together 25 years, and while dating we were rabbits, but almost as soon as the wedding, it all came to a crazy slowdown. Lots of discussions, fights, rejections, all of it. At some point, I resigned myself to a low sex marriage because he assured me he just has a low interest, doesn't like porn, just not a big deal to him. Better or worse was my vow, so I accepted him.

We would have sex a few times a year, every couple of months. Life was stressful with kids, so it felt reasonable. And when it happened, it was good, fulfilling sex.

Now we are in a very dry spell, 14 months or so. Of course factor in the divorce announcement of 10 months ago. 

Last year he experienced a couple of failures for the first time in our marriage. I know it was hugely problematic for him. I asked him to see a DR. He refused. When he told me he wants out of the marriage, I suggested we try to have more intimacy. He said no, he's not attracted to me. He just wants out. I was devastated and shocked. I have gotten older, but my friends assure me I am still attractive, I get attention from other men. I think I am physically attractive, but I was not very pretty on the inside, however.

So these past 10 months, I have been working really hard on turning myself around. No longer a negative Nancy, no longer chronically angry. I have been going to the gym, making a better effort with hair and make-up etc. I'm really nice to him, compliment him etc.

His words of divorce snapped me out of some kind of trance. I suddenly noticed that while we slept in the same King bed, he did so coiled up in a ball hugging his edge of the bed. He would allow me to spoon him, but he would not respond, staying in the fetal position.

Things are improving, we now cuddle on the couch, we cuddle in the bed. We sleep in the center of the bed together. He allows me to wrap myself around him, and he spoons me. We are very affectionate again. A few months ago, I made an effort to "touch" him. He allowed it but there was no response. He didn't let me continue, it was super awkward. He thanked me for trying but said he wasn't interested.

I am wondering what if anything I should do now. A few weeks ago I asked him for the first time since his announcement if he still felt that way. He backed off the deadline, but still said he doesn't envision us growing old together.

I don't want to push him away with sexual pressure. I feel like if I am clear that I am receptive, he might eventually re-introduce intimacy to our relationship. A friend told me she believes it's the last thing to return and I should be patient.

While I accept that the marriage was full of fighting on both sides, we have found calm, and it feels like a loving peaceful marriage now. I wonder if he decided that his impotency was a reflection of his love for me rather than an aging issue. I've talked to our dr about this and he said he can gingerly address it with my husband, but H hasn't been to Dr since his divorce announcement.

Does anyone here have any experience with this kind of thing? How do you bring back that loving feeling when the spouse clearly is uncomfortable about it?


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

Something which developed over 25 years will not be resolved quickly. The fact also is, you cannot "move" another person toward anything. The only person you can "move" is yourself.

I also think there's a good chance your husband will figure out his ED is probably physical and not really related to your actions or being "not attracted".

Being "not attracted" comes from the emotional "side", it probably has something to do with "Negative Nancy". This will improve as long as you continue to follow your current efforts.

The Doc is a good idea.


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## Rhubarb (Dec 1, 2017)

It might be possible to save things. I might be completely wrong but here's my gut feeling as a guy. He has tuned away from you and as a result you have now started making an effort. He might look at this as cause an effect. To him keeping his distance is producing the desired result and he may think that if he suddenly changes is demeanor it might kill the golden goose. If I were you I'd keep it up and add in a little dialog about this being permanent change for you, but you need to see some encouragement from him to show you that he is willing to give it a second go. If he responds just make sure you don't drop back into old habits.


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## Pleaseineedhelp (Nov 26, 2017)

Thank you both for your input. At this stage, I am still betting that my change in behavior will bring about a change in our marriage and then a change in his desire to leave. I'm told in another thread this is a sucker's bet...but one I'm willing to make.

That said, it's been ten months of steady improvements between us. I stopped jumping on everything, and he's stopped baiting me. This weekend has been nothing short of kindness and sweetness between us. I was thinking if the sex came back, any sex, even once, it would seem like our marriage would be in remission, while we proved the changes are real and long lasting.

I guess it just seems like 10 months is a long time...but maybe it goes something like Divorce announcement...three months of shock... 3 months of noticing effort...3 months of response effort, which makes it about now. Maybe he needs to get through the holidays without explosions for him to feel safe in bringing back intimacy.

I just don't know what kind of timeline I should consider or IF I can even be the one to re-introduce intimacy. Maybe I have to wait for him to be ready. I'm afraid to try to seduce him or ask for sex because I don't want it to be too early and for him to remember he wants out and start getting cold in an effort to not lead me on.

But on the other hand, everywhere says sex in a marriage is important and lack of it causes problems...and maybe I shouldn't have believed him in the early years when he said he's just not that into sex. Maybe I should have handled it better.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Pleaseineedhelp said:


> *My marriage is a mess, in Feb my husband announced he wanted to leave the marriage when the kids are out of high school, so three years... I was devastated but have decided to use that time to try to save our marriage, or at least improve my role in it.*
> 
> One of the issues we have is sex, or lack of it. We have been together 25 years, and while dating we were rabbits...
> 
> ...


A few thoughts. First, when my marriage was in crisis and the symptom was total refusal by my wife to have sex with me, I was told it would take about a month of hard work by both for each year of crisis problems.

Second, congratulations on working on yourself. It has shown changes in him. Well done and keep up the good work.

Third, M W Davis has a series of books you might want to read, DivorceBusting, the Sex Starved Wife. Her philosophy is that one partner in a marriage can change themself so that the entire marriage dynamic must change. It may change for the worse or the better, you don't have control over that, but if things are bad you can work to improve them by 180's, self change, and Getting a Life. Her approach and other things saved my marriage. But understand tat not all marriages can be saved and so you need to work on yourself.

Fourth, tell him you understand that you have hurt him and he wants out of the marriage. You want to apologize to him. You would like to work on trying to save your marriage with him. Set up a meeting with a good Board certified sex therapist for the two of you. Tell him they are expensive, but less expensive that two divorce attorneys.

Good Luck


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

You might consider a "small" confrontational approach. For example you might, while acknowledging his plan to eventually leave, tell him that as long as you're still married you expect him to satisfy you at least some times. Then demand that he "service you" by going down on you orally. Or by demanding that he allow you to perform orally on him even if he's not that into it at the start (I mention oral because intercourse may be counter productive if he doesn't get an erection). Anyway, the point is that he goes through the motions because he has to, and maybe a spark comes of it. I'll tell you from personal experience, if you're waiting for him to initiate it's unlikely to happen.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

OP, I didn't respond to this the other day when I seen it, because I wanted to think on it some more. I don't much post in this particular section, because I am of the thought that fundamental sexual incompatibility is largely unsolvable.

From your first post it seems as though you are the higher drive between you and your spouse? I'm sure I am reading this correctly.

I can certainly understand why you were grumpy with him and about life in general. A person with a high drive is in a fight they can never win when with a low drive spouse. Unfortunately, it drags on the entire relationship.

I can certainly feel your pain, but you can't possibly hope to fix this. He has said explicitly that "He said no, he's not attracted to me". A raw base attraction is important in marriage for pulling you through the rough times, because there are so many things that can pull you apart. It has to suck to hear a spouse say that to you.

There are cases where a couple can find a compromise point. @Young at Heart is probably the best example of this. I'm actually very happy for him that he is able to find a compromise that works for him. I hold a lot of respect for him that he can makes their thing work as well as it does. I really don't know much about his story other than what I have seen posted here and there. One thing I will say, as much as he has made his compromise work for his relationship, there's no way I would accept it. That statement has absolutely nothing to do with his relationship and how it's working and says everything about me. 

I honestly could make a compromise like that work if I had to. I SIMPLY WON'T! I would not minimize my needs and my desires for a friendship. I can have all the pletonic friendships I want, but at the end of the day it doesn't fill the void a warm and fully loving relationship brings. I did suppress myself for 10 years. There were underlying problems and those have been resolved, but I won't do it again. I have told my wife this. She knows that I will not live in a sexless marriage. I will in fact live a sexless life alone before I have it rubbed in my face on a daily basis. It's just the principles of the matter.

I have to ask you what exactly are you getting out of this marriage? Sounds like you have gotten plenty of arguments and anger with a side order of "I don't care", but what are you really getting out of it? Is it right for you to suppress your natural desire and drive to placate a spouse who really couldn't be bothered with your problems? Why are you the one that's expected to meet their needs when they can't make an effort.

I know it's hard, but try to think of your marriage as a stepping stone to a new and better life. It doesn't sound like he's attracted to you and it doesn't sound like there is much love unless you compromise who you are.

Why would you intentionally be less than you are capable of? I'm sorry you find yourself in this situation. Any spouse that wants their partner to be less than they are capable of, doesn't much love their spouse.

I wish you luck.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Pin,
Let’s take a quick trip down memory lane. Back when the marriage was good and you were both happy, how did the non sexual affection work? Who initiated it and how. 

I think you’ve done a great job, turning the marriage around. You’ve removed the bad stuff. Add back in:
- A playful tone of interaction
- A high contact/high touch style

Those two things - done right - are difficult for the average man to walk away from. Playfulness hits the dopamine - excitement - laughter - happiness. Touch releases endorphins and is soothing and reassuring. 

All that said - there can be NO discussion of the future unless he initiates it. And you ought not initiate sex. Let him come to you. 

Oh and one more thing. 

While you need to continue to avoid radiating anger at him. You MUST radiate disapproval, when he behaves badly. Anger is a secondary emotion generated by fear or hurt. In that sense it is a display of the angry persons weaknesses. No one wants a weak partner. 

Disapproval is totally different. The person radiating disapproval merely has standards of behavior, and they are expressing your shortfall against them. 

Anger is me taking your malfunction and making it my malfunction. Disapproval is my constructive feedback on your malfunction. 

Make sense?




Pleaseineedhelp said:


> Thank you both for your input. At this stage, I am still betting that my change in behavior will bring about a change in our marriage and then a change in his desire to leave. I'm told in another thread this is a sucker's bet...but one I'm willing to make.
> 
> That said, it's been ten months of steady improvements between us. I stopped jumping on everything, and he's stopped baiting me. This weekend has been nothing short of kindness and sweetness between us. I was thinking if the sex came back, any sex, even once, it would seem like our marriage would be in remission, while we proved the changes are real and long lasting.
> 
> ...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Didn't I post to you on your other thread suggesting the books "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs"? 

Have you read them?


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## Pleaseineedhelp (Nov 26, 2017)

Elegirl, you did ! And I have not had the chance to get them. I have kids etc that can get the mail, so I need to figure something out where I can either buy them at a shop, or order them and have them sent to a trusted friend. It takes time as I live in the middle of nowhere. I believe you also recommended Divorce Busting especially sections regarding re-introducing positive behaviors. 

I came here to focus on the sex part while I try to get my hands on the resources you suggested.

TO answer the other post, I have a lifetime of fantastic experiences with this man. We have and raised two children. We've traveled the world. When the marriage was more stable we were the best of friends. We did have sex, but his is definitely a lower need. I hadn't realized what a barometer sex was/is in a marriage and so I am now thinking if I can get it back to where it was, my marriage will be more stable. 

Maybe not, but I feel like I want to try. I'm trying to view this like a terminal disease... when we knew my father was dying of cancer, we didn't kill him off to hasten our pain and recovery...we tried to enjoy our remaining time with him. 
Ironically my husband and I are getting along better than we have in years...it seems like the sex is the only missing piece, but I can imagine he's still waiting to see if this is all real, because it's such a profound difference in the way we interact.

I don't know..my heart is broken, I have guilt, and I can't think straight.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

"It is easier to give birth than it is to resurrect the dead"

- Athol Kay


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

When he has sex with you it will mean he trusts you. Trust can only be given, not demanded.




Pleaseineedhelp said:


> Elegirl, you did ! And I have not had the chance to get them. I have kids etc that can get the mail, so I need to figure something out where I can either buy them at a shop, or order them and have them sent to a trusted friend. It takes time as I live in the middle of nowhere. I believe you also recommended Divorce Busting especially sections regarding re-introducing positive behaviors.
> 
> I came here to focus on the sex part while I try to get my hands on the resources you suggested.
> 
> ...


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

You realize that if you are under 300 lbs, have most of your own teeth and don't have open, draining sores all over that you could pick up about any guy in a bar and he would be glad to ravage you and would ask for more. 

If you are over 300 lbs, there will be at least a few guys in the bar that are really into that and they will be in 7th heaven. 

Getting sex for women is like getting a bucket full of sand in the desert. 

You have spent a good chunk of your life with a man who has only touched you a few times a year, hasn't had sex with you in over a year and has announced that he is not attracted to you, does not want a love/sex life with you and has announced his intentions to not remain married to you when the youngest has reached legal adulthood. 

Do you have any idea how many men in the world want to have a sex life? Do you have any idea how many men in the world yearn for full-service relationship complete with an active and healthy sex life? Do you have any idea how many men in the world want to be married and grow old with a woman that they have a romantic/sexual connection with??? 

It's commendable that you are willing to put in time and effort and self-reflection to try to save your marriage. 

But at some point you have to understand that time, effort and heavy lifting deserves some kind of reciprocity. What kind of time, effort and heavy lifting is he doing to save your marriage and try to please you romantically and sexually?

A smile and an acceptance of a drink in a bar will get you as much hot, sweaty, monkey sex as you could possibly want. It's that easy. 

Saving a marriage and having a happy, healthy relationship is obviously a lot more complex and labor intensive. But do you at least see the irony here? 

You've had a dead bedroom for decades. You how long the road to recovery is...... how much time do you have left in this world?? How much time and effort are you going to put in to this without any reciprocity? Is this a valid expenditure of time and energy to try to fix this when you aren't getting any reciprocity in effort and it would be so easy and you would get so much elsewhere? 

This just simply makes no sense.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Pleaseineedhelp said:


> Elegirl, you did ! And I have not had the chance to get them. I have kids etc that can get the mail, so I need to figure something out where I can either buy them at a shop, or order them and have them sent to a trusted friend. It takes time as I live in the middle of nowhere. I believe you also recommended Divorce Busting especially sections regarding re-introducing positive behaviors.


The books "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs" are all about building a better marriage. They come in a brown cardboard box or large envelope, so your kids are not going to see what they are. And what would be wrong with your kids seeing that you ordered some self-help books?

Or go get a mail box. They don't cost all that much.

The Divorce Busting book will also come in a box/envelope without the name of the book on the outside of the box.

My point is that you are asking for help to fix your marriage. These books give you the insight that you need. They tell you the things that are the most likely to help you out. No one here on TAM can give you that level of help. Basically no one here is going to take the time to tell you what to do because it takes 3 books to do it.

You want help? Get the books.




Pleaseineedhelp said:


> I came here to focus on the sex part while I try to get my hands on the resources you suggested.


Here is a thread about the sex part of the relationship. The other 3 books also address it.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/350970-sex-starved-wife.html


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## poida (Jan 17, 2014)

The whole Negative Nancy thing has me concerned. I know how much of a boner killer that can be. It can incite hate.
Work on yourself no matter what the outcome.


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## Pleaseineedhelp (Nov 26, 2017)

Elegirl, you are helping me! And I have girl friends that I have told, but only one male friend, an old friend from college. I believe I can tell some of the respondents are men. I'm so grateful for their input and perspective. We don't have too many "stranger on the bus" opportunities to tell our secrets anymore these days. This has been an invaluable experience. I am grateful to everyone who has taken the time to weigh in. I have no idea what to make of my situation. At some level I agree with the majority of respondents that I should Get my **** and git...but I just can't. Not because I'm weak, I like to think because I'm strong. If this ship is going down, I'm going down with it, knowing I fought til the very end.

If we ended it now, he walks away from a shrew of a wife...in three years, he will be walking away from a wonderful woman. I prefer that. 

There's nothing inherently wrong with the kids knowing I'm ordering self help books, but I'm not interested in including them in my marriage issues, especially since now...on the surface...it's a sexual thing. They see their mom and dad cuddling on the couch, they no longer witness arguing, they see their mom and dad doing nice things for each other, and have for months now. 

Because of this behavior, I am encouraged that intimacy may not be out of the question. I am hoping it's a matter of trust, like Mem2020 suggests.

I don't know what I'm doing here in this chatroom. I am hoping someone like you, EleGirl shares their experience with me and give me some things to consider as I make my way. We don't have a lot of money. I can't afford to purchase Mort Fertel's miracle cure. He seems to promote being nice. I can be nice without spending $400. 

Sex is a weird thing. I am an attractive 55 yo woman. Of course he might not be attracted to me, but I'm thinking he wasn't attracted to the angry me. And/or he was just wanting to hurt me. I know I could get laid if I want to. I go out with friends and I have no shortage of attention paid to me. I know I could have an OM. I don't think it would be cheating. I would much rather take a lover who wants me than demand sex from a man who isn't a willing partner...

But I'm not really interested in having casual sex. I am taking the position that he is having conflict and as his wife and friend, I should help him if I can. It would be awful to break-up this family if it turned out he simply has low Testosterone that he mistook for lack of interest in me, who had become a nasty woman. I would be willing to wager that oldshirt wouldn't be attracted to an obnoxious, angry Angelina Jolie, let alone someone such as myself who is considerably less attractive than she. I am reminded of a posted from my college days of a sexy bomshell with the words: "Never forget no matter how beautiful she is, some guy is sick of her ****." There's more to being attractive than just looks.

I understand from this forum the long-shot I am up against. I understand it simply makes no sense...in some ways that's exactly why I am here....to try to make sense of it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Pleaseineedhelp said:


> Elegirl, you are helping me! And I have girl friends that I have told, but only one male friend, an old friend from college. I believe I can tell some of the respondents are men. I'm so grateful for their input and perspective. We don't have too many "stranger on the bus" opportunities to tell our secrets anymore these days. This has been an invaluable experience. I am grateful to everyone who has taken the time to weigh in. I have no idea what to make of my situation. At some level I agree with the majority of respondents that I should Get my **** and git...but I just can't. Not because I'm weak, I like to think because I'm strong. If this ship is going down, I'm going down with it, knowing I fought til the very end.
> 
> If we ended it now, he walks away from a shrew of a wife...in three years, he will be walking away from a wonderful woman. I prefer that.
> 
> ...


I'm certainly not suggesting that you spend $400 on anything. 

Look at this *link for the Divorce Busting book*, a used copy is about #1.89. Nothing near $400. 

The about the sex part of your relationship is that it's not going to be fixed until the non-sexual part is much healthier. Concentrate on the non-sexual and the sexual will come back. 

I gave you a link to a thread.. the Sex Starved Wife. I, and may other women, share some of the story on there. I suggest that you read the first few pages at least of that thread.

Also, if you order the books, how are your children going to see what books you order? Do they open your mail?


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

Pleaseineedhelp, it probably took your H 5 or 10 years to say he wants to leave you when the kids are finished with high school and once he said he wanted to leave it might take that long for him to get over the angry part of the marriage. There are groups of people that subscribe to the idea "too little and too late, they are all set to find someone else or go it alone for a while, no matter what.

OTH when you make improvements to yourself it has to be mostly for your own self development with a side of hoping your H will notice and realize what he might be giving up.

One thing i will suggest is keep improving but do not over do it to a point that it stresses you out or you get to a point of feeling like "why bother, he isn't appreciating the improvements. This isn't a sprint. This reconciliation is a long foot race, so pace yourself because the finish line is yet to be determined. The eventual finish line could be moved further away, closer, or to several new locations.

About books, I bought several used books fron Amazon for little money and paid the $4.00 shipping. Most of the expensive repair ypur marriage are hype and boasting and they only work if BOTH people are on board. If it is mostly up to you to save this marriage, the listed books are a place to start getting ideas that might or might not work.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I may seem like an @$$ in many of my posts but I really am on your side. 

I get where you are coming from in wanting to fight till the last breath and I understand that you are doing what you can to self-reflect and own your contribution to the break down of the marriage and are doing what you think is best to correct it. That is all very admirable and commendable and if that is what is going to help you sleep at night if you do get handed divorce papers in 3 years, then so be it. I get it. 

But what I want you to realize is that unreciprocated behavior is throwing out good time, energy and money. 

How many Self help books and marriage building and divorce busting books is he ordering from Amazon? How many MC sessions is he attending with you? How many IC sessions is he scheduling to address his issues? How much self-reflection is doing and how is he changing his attitudes and behaviors to strengthen the marriage? How many internet forums is he posting on to gather advice on how to regenerate interest in the bedroom? 

That is what I am getting at. How much of your efforts are being reciprocated with effort of his own?

And I am not really saying you should go out and pick up strangers in bars. I am saying that the world is full of men yearning for a love and sex life and getting sex is the easiest thing in the world for women to do. While you are reading books, posting on internet forums, ordering books and doing back flips to get your H to respond to you sexually, there are millions of men out there that would roll out the red carpet for a partner to have a love and sex life with them. 

I know you have some personal baggage and a heavy load of guilt you are trying to deal with. But at some point you have to look at the effectiveness of all of this time and energy output you are putting in to try to resurrect your marriage. 

Is it being reciprocated???? At this point I do not know if holding hands on the couch is reciprocation or not. Ultimately you are the one that will have to determine if your efforts are accomplishing anything or not. 

My point is that 1/100th of the time, energy and money you are putting into trying to recusitate this marriage, will accomplish a new relationship with someone else. 

And the opposite is likely true for your H as well (assuming he is not already involved with someone else now)


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Please,

This was painful to read. He did a serious bait and switch on his sex drive prior to marriage. That was unkind. 

There are two remarkably different approaches to dating, one is to treat it as a sales cycle. The other is to treat it like a discovery process. The more it resembles a discovery process, the more similar your partner finds the pre and post marital behavior.

That said, he loved you and is clearly an excellent non sexual companion when you aren’t fighting. 

Age has amplified his lack of interest in sex. This is difficult stuff. There is no right answer here, only difficult choices. 






Pleaseineedhelp said:


> My marriage is a mess, in Feb my husband announced he wanted to leave the marriage when the kids are out of high school, so three years... I was devastated but have decided to use that time to try to save our marriage, or at least improve my role in it.
> 
> One of the issues we have is sex, or lack of it. We have been together 25 years, and while dating we were rabbits, but almost as soon as the wedding, it all came to a crazy slowdown. Lots of discussions, fights, rejections, all of it. At some point, I resigned myself to a low sex marriage because he assured me he just has a low interest, doesn't like porn, just not a big deal to him. Better or worse was my vow, so I accepted him.
> 
> ...


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## MartinBeck (Jan 19, 2017)

Next time you feel the mood between you is good, and he’s initiated some affection by cuddling with you, you should escalate and explicitly initiate sex.
If he rejects you, that’s a data point that tells you a lot about the state of your marriage and the likelihood of him leaving at the 3 year mark per his plan. 
If he is receptive but can’t get hard, then you can maybe start a conversation about health and testosterone and seeing a doctor.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

@Pleaseineedhelp

Just a thought--if you own a smartphone, download the Amazon Kindle app. You can get all of those books delivered digitally to your phone in seconds with none the wiser.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

poida said:


> The whole Negative Nancy thing has me concerned. I know how much of a boner killer that can be. It can incite hate.
> Work on yourself no matter what the outcome.


I had this thought. This sounds like a walk away wife syndrome, but instead, here we have a walk away husband. Similar to a walk away wife finally just being done after years of withstanding her husband's anger, etc, perhaps this is the same, he is done due to the years of withstanding/subjected to a negative, angry personality in his wife.

In cases of walk away wife syndrome, there doesn't seem much to be done to grow the loving feelings back. Once she's done, she's done, those "in love partner" feelings don't come back.

And here we have his low interest in sex adding to the problem.

OP maybe read up on walk away wife. Can you just ask your husband what his feelings currently are?


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

From your other thread, your husband emptied your savings to prop up his failing business. When he had to go get another job, he put you in charge of an already failing business that wasn't yours and wasn't your area of expertise. Then he blamed you for not being great at running his business that you knew little to nothing about. You've said he routinely baits you to argue with him. He obviously blames you for things that are equally obviously not your responsibility. He's never been all that interested in a healthy and active married sex life with you. Now he travels a good deal for work and basically came home and said he wants a divorce at a future time that will be most convenient for him, essentially because he loves you but isn't in love with you. 

To me, it seems pretty clear that not all the problems in your marriage stemmed from you. Unless he's working on his own issues - and not having an affair or affairs - all your improvements may do very little to prop up your sinking marriage. They might make you a better, happier, person because you will have worked on letting go of your anger and resentment at him, but if he's not working on the marriage too then there might not be any saving it. The current situation suits him just fine. You're playing the pick-me dance while accepting all the blame for decades of marital dysfunction, and he gets all the benefits of your hard work and all the cuddles he wants without having to make changes of his own or give you the sex you've always wanted. This situation is absolutely working for him. Is it working for you? 

Are you two in MC?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Please,
As you have found, Ele is insightful, experienced and helpful. 

I am only weighing in now because I’m a man in his mid fifties, with the same partner for 28 years. My wife has taken good care of herself and looks great. 

That said, my desire levels have fallen maybe 5 fold in that time. If your H followed the same trajectory, a five fold decrease would take you down to maybe 1-2 per year. 

That frequency is emotionally painful for the person with a normal sex drive. It creates hope but never delivers. 

Your H might overall be a good guy. He probably is given your attachment level. He also has a track record of sexual behavior that is very unusual or intentionally deceptive. Note the striking difference you described in his pre and post marital behavior. 

The lower drive person in a sexless marriage often lies about it. Meaning they will blame the crap out of the average drive person for the absence of sex. For example:
- You’re too nice, or too mean or
- Too pushy or too passive or
- They are too stressed or too tired - except they are rarely too tired/stressed for the things they actually want to do






EleGirl said:


> I'm certainly not suggesting that you spend $400 on anything.
> 
> Look at this *link for the Divorce Busting book*, a used copy is about #1.89. Nothing near $400.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Please,
Just to be clear. When I posted about trust and sex, I had not yet read your description of your husbands very low drive. My bad. 

After reading that - I’m not sure trust will get you there. The tone of my subsequent posts changed after I re-read your initial post. Because your history suggests that he has a big issue with sex. 





Pleaseineedhelp said:


> Elegirl, you are helping me! And I have girl friends that I have told, but only one male friend, an old friend from college. I believe I can tell some of the respondents are men. I'm so grateful for their input and perspective. We don't have too many "stranger on the bus" opportunities to tell our secrets anymore these days. This has been an invaluable experience. I am grateful to everyone who has taken the time to weigh in. I have no idea what to make of my situation. At some level I agree with the majority of respondents that I should Get my **** and git...but I just can't. Not because I'm weak, I like to think because I'm strong. If this ship is going down, I'm going down with it, knowing I fought til the very end.
> 
> If we ended it now, he walks away from a shrew of a wife...in three years, he will be walking away from a wonderful woman. I prefer that.
> 
> ...


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## Pleaseineedhelp (Nov 26, 2017)

Mem2020 gives and he takes away... shoot!

This is so complicated and I thank everyone who has read my story and given their thoughts. This sex stuff is a little extra complicated because we've been together 25 years, I didn't just realize it. I accepted it nearly 15 years ago. I just thought it was because we had babies, and house maintenance, and work, and tomorrow. I was patiently waiting for this stage of our lives when the kids leave and we can rediscover ourselves. 

Now I'm realizing the sex is likely more involved...mostly because he said he doesn't fancy me. Lord knows I asked him that years ago! I've asked him if he's gay. I've asked about everything. He always said it was just circumstances...tired, stressed, no time, no privacy...that kind of thing. I think that's why that revelation of not finding me attractive hurt the worst. I'm not a super model but I pretty much believe everyone would find me attractive...certainly not sexually repulsive. 

In any event, time will tell. I am working on myself for myself. I'm also working on my marriage, but I know at some point the lines will cross and I will be the one pulling the trigger...which he might very well intend. I'm a strong woman and not one to suffer other people.

So it's a race...will I fix my marriage before I fully detach?

Again, I am so thankful for the input, the resources, and the speculation. You have given me great gifts of things to learn and think about and practice. Thank you.


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## Bonkers (Nov 26, 2017)

The road can be quite long, frought with peril, and it might not even lead where you expect it to go.

Just ask these guys


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## Pleaseineedhelp (Nov 26, 2017)

Yes, and I keep switching directions! After I responded and was driving to collect my daughter, I realized again that it isn't about my appearance...it's about my behavior: Ugly goes straight to the bone! I keep fixating on how I look. There are plenty of men that I find attractive that I don't want to sex up.

I know I deserved to get angry in the 25 years, but I should have handled it better. I'm not a good angry woman, or at least I wasn't. I may have had reasons to leave the marriage but that he feels he does is on me. And I am hoping the reason he doesn't want to have sex with me is because of my behavior and as I improve and it sticks, he decides to reinvest.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

I want to repeat something said above.

Given the state of your marriage and your H's attitude toward sex, do not do ANYTHING in the hope it will entice your H back into the marriage or into your bed for sex. Assume he is leaving and that you are not getting any sex until he does (and then you take some time to meet someone else worth having sex with).

Focus your time and energy on becoming the best version of you that you are capable of becoming. Do things that make you proud of yourself. Things that give you a sense of accomplishment whether your H reacts to them or not.

You cannot prevent your H from leaving. If he leaves, and your focus was on keeping him, then you will feel like a failure. No matter what you accomplished. That is foolish and puts your future happiness in his hands. he already told you he wants a divorce. Not a good candidate for "keeper of my future happiness".

You need to be your own "keeper of future happiness". You need to work on yourself because you get to "keep" yourself even if he leaves. So every bit of time and effort you expend on yourself, you get the full benefit. If he wants to share in that benefit, so much the better. If not, his loss. Some other great guy will want to share life with the great woman you are.

Onward and upward!

Oh, and yes, some men are shallow and care only about looks. But plenty of guys care about willingness and enthusiasm too. You can have that no matter what shape or size you are in. I lusted after my wife when she was heavy. I lusted after her when she lost the weight but had stretch marks and cellulite. I lusted after her despite the double mastectomy. Male lust is never in short supply in general, although more often than is popularly realized it is in short supply in specific cases. As saying goes, for any word that you think describes an unattractive body part, if you type it into pornhub there will be at least 1000 videos focusing on that version of that body part.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Pleaseineedhelp said:


> Yes, and I keep switching directions! After I responded and was driving to collect my daughter, I realized again that it isn't about my appearance...it's about my behavior: Ugly goes straight to the bone! I keep fixating on how I look. There are plenty of men that I find attractive that I don't want to sex up.
> 
> I know I deserved to get angry in the 25 years, but I should have handled it better. I'm not a good angry woman, or at least I wasn't. I may have had reasons to leave the marriage but that he feels he does is on me. And I am hoping the reason he doesn't want to have sex with me is because of my behavior and as I improve and it sticks, he decides to rVeinvest.



I'm not suggesting you are an innocent victim or any kind of saint or anything nor am I saying that you were/are the perfect wife and this is all on him.

But sometimes we try to shoulder all the blame because if we convince ourselves we are to blame and that our actions directly placed us in our current position it makes us feel that we can also have the power to fix it.

In other words, if we had the power to break it, then we must also have the power to fix it. 

The problem with that idiology is it may be completely false. You aren't 100% to blame for this so there for you do not have all the power to fix it.

He has agency and free will. If he doesn't want to reconcile, he won't. It takes both people to save a marriage. Regardless of your contribution to the destruction of your marriage, you do not have the power to fix it on your own.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Please,

A few observations that are exclusively about you. These are based on my having read a couple hundred thousand posts in the past decade from a couple thousand posters. 

Many, many posters suffer from the following - ummm - limitations:
- Self awareness 
- Sincerity (what they say is not aligned with what they do)
- Transparency (this is a composite of being willing to share and being adept at describing their situation)
- Maturity (this is primarily a measure of patience, but it is more than just that)
- Pragmatism (this is mostly that theme of yours - where you define strength vs weakness)

On a ten scale I rate you a 9 across the board. In aggregate, this makes you a one percenter. 







Pleaseineedhelp said:


> Mem2020 gives and he takes away... shoot!
> 
> This is so complicated and I thank everyone who has read my story and given their thoughts. This sex stuff is a little extra complicated because we've been together 25 years, I didn't just realize it. I accepted it nearly 15 years ago. I just thought it was because we had babies, and house maintenance, and work, and tomorrow. I was patiently waiting for this stage of our lives when the kids leave and we can rediscover ourselves.
> 
> ...


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## MartinBeck (Jan 19, 2017)

I suspect that yes indeed there is a very strong element of what is commonly called “walk away wife” here, where the spouse (often the wife) has felt disenfranchised, ignored, devalued, etc, etc, and has therefore lost all attraction to their spouse.

I suspect many, many men are NOT walk-away-husbands and make the tradeoffs of putting up with unsastifying marriages and continued sex with wives they are not very attractive to because of the ease of access to sex within the marriage versus expected success in the dating and sexual marketplace outside the marriage. 

Walk-away wives often walk because they think they will have access to sex outside the marriage, or place a lower value on it.

You’re husband if he really does have a low drive is less bound to an unhappy marriage then other men with a higher drive would be.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Martin,

I am not speaking as a mod here. I am merely conversing with you as a fellow poster. 

Your post below is - incomprehensible to me. 

Let’s reverse roles here. Husband marries wife and she immediately pulls the sexual bait and switch on him. He bites the pillow and accepts it. He is not happy about it but he just grits his teeth and reminds himself of his vows. 

Fast forward 20 years and his sexually disappointing wife now begins to wreck the family finances. 

So he gets really angry and starts giving her steady grief. And then she says: I’m going to leave in 3 years

So tell me, who is the bad guy in that scenario? 

In my opinion the answer is easy. 





MartinBeck said:


> I suspect that yes indeed there is a very strong element of what is commonly called “walk away wife” here, where the spouse (often the wife) has felt disenfranchised, ignored, devalued, etc, etc, and has therefore lost all attraction to their spouse.
> 
> I suspect many, many men are NOT walk-away-husbands and make the tradeoffs of putting up with unsastifying marriages and continued sex with wives they are not very attractive to because of the ease of access to sex within the marriage versus expected success in the dating and sexual marketplace outside the marriage.
> 
> ...


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Committed counseling ... and forever as long as it takes!*


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## Pleaseineedhelp (Nov 26, 2017)

I do feel at some level that I have some power to fix it. When he told me of his plans, he didn't seem like he was holding back too much. He laid it all in my lap, thinly veiled as he no longer wants the responsibilities...but I am the one who berated him over his responsibilities. And the whole "I don't want to have sex anymore because I just don't find you attractive anymore" was the most soul crushing thing he could have said to me...and I think he knew that. 

If he really wanted out of the marriage, he could have said he was having an affair, he could have said he was gay, or some other non-negotiable (for me) variable. It sure didn't feel like he was trying to spare my feelings that night. So, while those things could still be true, I think they are unlikely.

So, after a week of it playing back in my head on a constant uncontrollable loop, it started to sound more like:

I can't take you being angry at me anymore. You control everything and I don't feel like my own grown-up. I want to make my own decisions and live like I want to, without being berated if I make a mistake. This life has gotten so stressful, I want to simplify and reduce my responsibilities so I can focus on my job which pays enough to help us recover from my depleting our savings. I have a lot of guilt over that, and I will do the right thing and support you financially, but it will be better for us and you if you get a job too so we can build savings faster.

Me: Maybe we'll feel more connected if we have more sex

Him: I don't want to have sex with you anymore. It's just one more demand you make of me and I can't take it anymore. You are such a cause of stress and pain, that I don't even find you attractive anymore. It doesn't feel like giving it feels like servicing.

We both have experience in negotiating, problem solving, and crisis management in our careers, so I believe he didn't shut the marriage down but left open the opportunity to work things out, and even a timeline to do so. 

If he truly wants the marriage to end, he has the means to do it. His job takes him around the country all week, and he has a flat in the city of his HQ where he stays. He could easily have said he would live there more permanently and come around occasionally on weekends when the kids are around. Now I am aware with the flat come opportunities for affairs...but I would have expected him to pile those on at his reveal.

I truly think he's a man who is exhausted of me and the pressures I put on him. I was exhausted of me and my anger, but I couldn't break the cycle. I remember even talking to my mom about it. Asking her for ideas on how to not take the bait. The marriage has had ups and downs, but these past few years have been very "War of the Roses" of incredible one-upmanship of bad behavior from both of us. I am betting he felt the only way to end the ugly was to end the marriage. Because he can't control my anger, but he can control the marriage.

Now I could be wrong, and we'll say that I am. What's the harm? I postpone devastation? I feel like I am going through the devastation now. 

I think my biggest motivation is grounded in reality. I want him to remember a better me. If he had left in February, he would have left a miserable marriage. He could feel justified. I recognized that I was a miserable bitter woman no good for anything, so I needed to get my head straight and my priorities and emotions under control, not only for my husband but for my children...after all their last memories of the family would also have been of misery had it all ended in February. I can't have that. I am in control of this.

Now they are seeing me rise to the occasion. They are seeing me calm myself. Today is day 3 of me working outside of the home. I am taking responsibility for myself and my role in the family. I know they had concerns the family would break-up, I think because the stress was inescapable. They are seeing me attempt to improve life for everyone.

I could fail, and I have come here to see if anyone can shed light on my odds...and it seems like the smart money is on the marriage ending. That will suck, but I will be able to walk away knowing I tried. And there is some comfort in knowing I am creating better final memories of home for all of us.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Rock on Please! Sounds like a positive plan.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Pleaseineedhelp said:


> I could fail, and I have come here to see if anyone can shed light on my odds...and it seems like the smart money is on the marriage ending. That will suck, but I will be able to walk away knowing I tried. And there is some comfort in knowing I am creating better final memories of home for all of us.


Maybe this can be a good analogy. You are the pilot of a small, private airplane and you are flying along at altitude when the engine starts to putter and stall and all the warning lights in the cockpit start lighting up and all the warning alarms are going off. 

There is an initial panic and an initial sense of "what's happening and what do I do???"

But after a few moments of trying to get a grasp of what's going on and a few moments of collecting your thoughts you come to your senses enough to start going through your emergency procedures and following your training.

You find that the controls are sluggish but they do respond to your helm. The engine is sputtering and losing power and you are starting to lose altitude and drift downwards but the engine is still running and you do still have some power.

Then you see a small landing strip on the horizon and you try to do the math and the trajectory in your head and you believe in earnest that you can make it to the airfield and land on all wheels and keep yourself alive, not kill anyone on the ground and not pile the plane up into a smoking pile of debris in a hole in the ground.

So you work the controls to the best of your ability and milk the engine for every bit of power it will give you and you set your sights on the distant landing strip with every bit of focus you can and you shoot for good landing with no destruction even if on your last bit of power and control. 


......... That is all fine and dandy and admirable as long as you strap on you parachute and keep one eye on the ground for an open patch of ground and one hand on the ejection handle so you can bail out the moment the plane takes a nose dive or the moment you realize the plane is not going to make it to the runway. 

Moral of the story here is there are some things your skills and training and instincts can control and effect; and there are somethings they cannot.

It's ok to try your hardest and give it your all. But you have to be ready, willing and able to save your own hide if saving the day just isn't possible.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

And if you are referencing the movie, "war of the Roses" at all, then you also need to keep in mind that there would be no point or purpose for trying to salvage your prior marriage at all. 

That marriage SHOULD be put out if it's misery and come to an end.

The only marriage worth saving here would be a future marriage that does not even exist yet and one that would have to be built from the ground up that is completely and entirely different than the one that has existed for the last quarter of a century.


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## Pleaseineedhelp (Nov 26, 2017)

Yes OldShirt, you make a lot of sense and I believe you are probably right. I think you have a great grasp on my situation. I think the airplane metaphor is spot on...with one exception: I won't die if the plane crashes. At most I'll walk away bloody and bruised with maybe a broken bone or two (that I got when he broke the news) but I'll walk away. So what's at stake is trying to save the plane and collateral damage from an early crash.

I think it's worth it. IF I were as certain as you that all is lost, and when I become so certain, I will in all likelihood torch it myself. I'm not a stranger to heartbreak. I can take it.

I was referring to the movie, and you're right again, we need to build a new marriage. But we have so much in common to form the base if we can both let go of the bad stuff, which really took a turn for the worse in the last 2-3 years. Otherwise, I am exposed to plenty of married people who bicker and fight. And if I go off the kinds of things I read here, my husband and I have first world problems.

We'll just have to see how this turns out, because I don't think he's a cheater, and while everyone around here thinks if you don't want to have sex with a woman, you're automatically gay, that doesn't seem to be a given. So I think there's a chance I can inspire him to help me save our family.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Pleaseineedhelp said:


> I don't think he's a cheater, and while everyone around here thinks if you don't want to have sex with a woman, you're automatically gay, that doesn't seem to be a given.


I think there are many cases where the allure of the power of saying "no" to a HD person is more enticing than the pleasure derived from having sex with that HD person. I think there are plenty of LDs who are not opposed to having sex as much as they are opposed to giving up the power that derives from turning down the HD. Your H might be one of those. Not so sure that your task is to entice him to have sex as much as it is to entice him to give up the secret thrill from turning you down. Make the relationship good enough for him that he feels bad (rather than powerful) when he turns you down.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Pleaseineedhelp said:


> Yes OldShirt, you make a lot of sense and I believe you are probably right. I think you have a great grasp on my situation. I think the airplane metaphor is spot on...with one exception: I won't die if the plane crashes. At most I'll walk away bloody and bruised with maybe a broken bone or two (that I got when he broke the news) but I'll walk away. So what's at stake is trying to save the plane and collateral damage from an early crash.
> 
> I think it's worth it. IF I were as certain as you that all is lost, and when I become so certain, I will in all likelihood torch it myself. I'm not a stranger to heartbreak. I can take it.
> 
> ...


I am not certain that all is lost. In fact I am not certain at all of anything. 

None of us are guaranteed of tomorrow let alone what will happen in 3 years. In 3 years you may have a perfectly happy, healthy marriage; or you could come home to an empty house and divorce papers sitting in the counter tomorrow.

My point is I believe that he is sincere and serious and that you should conduct yourself as such. I see nothing here that indicates he was/is blowing smoke or that it was simply a slip of the tongue in the heat of an arguement. I believe this is real.

If you want to dedicate yourself to self-improvement and giving your all to fixing the marriage, that is your choice and perogative.

My reccomendation is even if you are working to save the marriage, you must at least be smart about it and 
Be prepared for either one of you to pull the ejection handle at any moment.

Trust that he is serious about not wanting to stay married to you, but do not trust that he is actually going to give you 3 years to prepare yourself.

He may or may not be involved with anyone else right now. But that doesn't mean that he won't meet someone on Tuesday and bump up his departure date by two years and 10 months. 

The reason a number of people are saying for you to bail now so that you can have some control over your own destiny and not just be sitting there waiting for the other shoe to drop. Not many people can live with that kind of uncertainty and insecurity.


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