# Starting



## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

So I just emailed the lawyer for appt. This is happening. I need some advice before I pull the trigger on this first so the first meeting with the lawyer should clear up some things.

When I boil this all down what makes it impossible for me to go forward with the marriage is her willingness to lie to about big things and her unwillingness to work on changing that. Her EA's, money, and some other big lies I don't want to get into. If it was not for that I'd probably work on it longer, but she is making no effort to get passed her fast and loose relationship with the truth. Her way of dealing with difficult and hard things is just to lie and I can't live with that. I have pushed her toward IC to deal with her the lies and narcissism and MC to bring us closer, but she won't go and the rest of her "work" on the marriage is appeasement, duty sex, and rug sweeping. The EAs are over (at least for now) and things are calm friendly even a lot of fun at times, but the party is over and reality is finally here to stay.

I am anxious about where this is heading. I don't expect violence from my wife but almost anything else is on the table. She can be very vindictive and nasty.

She might get extremely confrontational and nasty.
She might lie about me to friends or authorities. 
She might destroy my property and things I care about in the house.
She might drag this on as long as possible to avoid getting a job.

If I am lucky and she has any remorse at all for what she has done, I can just talk her into moving on quickly with half of everything and a big alimony check for a few years.

I need to work out timing, when to tell friends and relatives. Once I do that this will get very real.


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## gouge_away (Apr 7, 2015)

Did you file yet?


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

gouge_away said:


> Did you file yet?


No, that is what the appt with the lawyer is for.


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## gouge_away (Apr 7, 2015)

Get your family heirlooms out before you file, guns, books, photo albums, collectables. Get them out, once you file, she is going to use any means possible to charge you for contempt... Best to avoid her, only speak through text or letter, and set her phone number to go straight to your voicemail.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Hopefully you protect yourself. Voice recorder around her all the time, protect items of importance, and limit contact with her as much as possible.

With unstable people, precaution is the best route. Good luck with everything.


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## gouge_away (Apr 7, 2015)

Download Skyro voice recorder to your phone. It has a widget for the home screen that starts and stops recording. You can also start from the lock screen.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Also, make sure you get copies/scans of every piece of financial, legal and personal paperwork just incase they disappear.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Talk to the lawyer about how to document things you remove from the home. Yes you do want to get guns, valuables, and sentimental items out of her reach. Important docs such as passports, birth certificates, mortgage papers, etc. too. 

You don't want to set up an opportunity for her in court to make it look like you were trying to hide assets.

Also, photograph or video the condition of the home and contents in case she damages stuff.

Definitely wear a VAR of some sort whenever in her presence. If she calls the police to claim some sort of abuse or violence, never admit to anything to the police. They are looking to take someone to jail. Any admission however tiny will earn you a ride in the cruiser. Even something such as you pushing your way past her because she had you trapped in a room and was screaming at you.

In any such confrontation remain calm at all times. Clearly state what she is doing "You are preventing me from leaving this room. I want to leave. You are verbally abusing me with your yelling". Make clear and repeated requests for her to stop or to let you leave. "Please move out of the doorway so I can leave. I want to leave now, please move". Expect her to try to enrage you, so don't take the bait when she says terrible things.


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## gouge_away (Apr 7, 2015)

Always apologize to the police for wasting their time, get a copy of the statements police reports for the judge, Judges hate people wasting time, whether its theirs or the police, they will see it and most likely push things along without much credence.

Police hate responding to domestic disputes unless bodily harm is involved, they just want to get out of there, just like you do, and if that means removing you from the property, so be it, ask them to document the items your taking with you while they escort you off the premises.


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

Thanks all for the comments/advice.

I am also going to put a deadbolt on my office which is just an extra bedroom. I did this once when I rented a room in a house by just replacing the knob.

This is going to have suck very bad before life gets better.


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## gouge_away (Apr 7, 2015)

You probably cannot restrict her personal liberty by concealing the contents of a whole room.

Your going to end up paying a locksmith to break in for your wife.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Thor said:


> Also, photograph or video the condition of the home and contents in case she damages stuff.


Do both video and photos. They show different things. Photos show items but they could have been taken at any time.

In a video, use something like the day's news paper to prove the date it the video was made. Then do a continuous video of the house. It will show that all the stuff in the photos existed in the house on that day. Open drawers, cabinets and closets to show valuables.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

gouge_away said:


> You probably cannot restrict her personal liberty by concealing the contents of a whole room.
> 
> Your going to end up paying a locksmith to break in for your wife.


If he earns a living from that office, yes he can lock her out. She is not allowed to interfere with his livelihood. He can even have his lawyer send a letter stating that he is taking possession of that room and she is to stay out of it.

I've seen divorces where the person who works out of the house gets to stay in the house and the other person has to leave. Why? Because doing otherwise interferers with that person's livelihood.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Buy a VAR, keep it on your person at all times, and be ready to flip it on any time that either of you initiates conversation w/ the other. If you're not in a one-party consent state (check w/ your attorney), make sure that you inform her that you're switching it on prior to doing so.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

GusPolinski said:


> Buy a VAR, keep it on your person at all times, and be ready to flip it on any time that either of you initiates conversation w/ the other. If you're not in a one-party consent state (check w/ your attorney), make sure that you inform her that you're switching it on prior to doing so.


Here are some resources

State Law: Recording | Digital Media Law Project

State by State Compliance


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

Irony. It is so much easier to give good advice than follow the path you know you need to take.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

IDK you history with your W but IME with separating, we did not turn into criminals (other than H DUI and having two car wrecks in 2 months with cost a few thousand for insurance deductible and ticket out of joint account)

I would not ASSUME she is going to act criminally (unless she has a history of that). ASSUME you can act like adults and treat the property with respect,

Act with dignity yourself. Do nothing you will be ashamed of later. IME they build their own gallows when it comes to family and friends (bible reference to Haman). The truth has a way of coming to light.


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

So I just laid out my Divorce Communication and paperwork in a powerpoint. Yes, I getting ready to present my divorce to a lawyer LOL. It seemed like the best way to lay it out for a first meeting with the Lawyer. It was tremendously focusing and I can better visualize this now. Eating an elephant one bite at a time.

Question for the field: I am wondering if my wife will feel less intimidated if I retain a female lawyer over being confronted with "the boys club" and some stuffed shirt stereotypical lawyer dude that she tends to loath. Does this make any sense? I am probably overthinking this, but I can save a lot of money if I can keep this peaceful.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Idk about the female thing. Women can be much more vicious to each other than men.

I think I would approach it with her as you wanting to utilize mediation so that you can cooperatively come to agreement so that the outcome is what you both want, rather than having the lawyers fight it out and ending up with all your assets. You should have lawyers to ensure everything is legal, but you don't want them to be any more involved than necessary.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

We didn't go to court. We are mediating an uncontested D (which is far less expensive but can only work if everyone can be adult about it)

My impression and what I've heard is that you are much better off getting someone who knows the judge well; a member of "the good ole boys club". Also, sometimes men (like the judge) have an axe to grind about powerful women. Would they rule against a pitbull female biatch lawyer just to put her in her place? :scratchhead:

Me, I'd get a male lawyer. (so sorry lady lawyers.... )


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

All good points. The lawyer I am shopping for is for advice for me. I am going to push hard for uncontested but my states laws are not very clear on alimony. It is basically just whatever the judge likes which leads a lot of people to go to court to gamble for more. I have some leverage here but there is not telling how this will go.

Last year, at D-Day, when she asked that we keep trying which led to a year of weak assed false R, she was very remorseful over the affairs and we had almost agreed to a settlement. Hopefully we can pick up from there, but who knows how it will go do down when it is clear this will happen.


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

Lawyer chosen. Meeting next week. 

I know they are going to tell me to file before talking to her but doing so might push her toward being defensive, getting her own lawyer and falling into contested. I am going to take the advice and then drop it on her in the next few weeks.--Hopefully.


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

Meeting with lawyer tomorrow. Most of my notes are together--I think. Hope to get this kicked off the Friday after next giving the long weekend to manage whatever talking or acting out she wants to do.

I know I am going to leave the lawyers office with a lot of unanswered questions because the weak guidlines in my state just encourage people to go to court over spousal support. That I will pay her a significant alimony for a significant period of time is clear, but that could mean $1200 a month for six months or $3000 a month for seven years. When she talks to a lawyer, which I think she should, I just hope they don't sell her on going to court and we can negotiate this down to something that does not feel like it is my enslavement. We have enough cash in the bank for probably 3 years of fighting but she will need cash more than I will.

Most of the facts are in my favor. She has a degree, just recently retrained for a speciality, is healthy and quite capable, and still could work for 20 years. What is not in my favor is that I allowed her to not work for about 14 years as she pursued being a "writer" and a few other things that never went anywhere. If she gets a job in line with her speciality that pays the average, and I give her $2000 a month, we will both be on virtually equal incomes which seems fine for a while, but unfair to me for much more than a year, or maybe two. The problem is it is so hard to get examples of what the court orders, and lawyers that I have talked to won't really speculate. If it does go to court I will probably have an advantage because, without kids, its fairly clear she has squandered the time she had without working and that would have to weigh into any judges decision I think.

I think I need to spend less time on TAM, but it helps.


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

I met with the lawyer today. It went well and I know I picked the right lawyer. I have lots to digest but I got what I needed to plan my discussion with my wife and draft the entry point in a collaborative settlement. 

I am going get boned hard in this, but I guess that is the price for freedom.


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

Ok I have talked the lawyer and I have a plan to move forward.


Before Final D-Day:


Plan final D-Day discussion with wife. What to say and how to say it.
Create starting cooperative dissolution proposal to put the ball in her court.
Open a new Bank Account
Transfer Direct Deposit to new bank account
Open a PO Box/Forward mail.
Change passwords on all financial/credit/bill payment accounts solely in my name.
Close joint credit accounts.
Buy a back up low profile VAR for constant carry.
Move personal separate high value property out of home (guns jewelry ect..)
Restart IC
Get a lock for my office
Move Personal Safe into Office


Immediately Post Final D-Day:


Inform immediate relatives and close friends.
Divide Cash in joint account 50/50
Assume all financial management responsibilities. 
Upon response from wife(3 days), engage lawyer to file either according to agreement or without an agreement.


Any comments or additions?


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Not much to add SE except to wish you both a quick, smooth divorce. I can't remember if you have children, but my only addition is to always have these discussions in their absence. My ex and I always met at a coffee shop to discuss our divorce specifics. I always sent an agenda in advance that he could comment on. Once the agenda was complete, we ended the meeting. We kept it civil (e.g. whoever arrived first bought the other coffee -- in my case so we could start/end sooner). No point to be hostile but no different from what you would do for a client or colleague.

You are getting a divorce. Keep it to business. No reviewing blame or emotions, as it doesn't matter anymore.

Also, it seems you are doing this, but having an agenda for the lawyer meets is also good. They are expensive, and your time will be eaten up more if you don't know exactly what you want from their time.

If, in a meeting with your lawyer, there are things that you have to take care of, end the meeting and set another one when you have those items ready. This is also a business relationship -- lawyers are not your friend -- they are there to provide you a service.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

ScrambledEggs said:


> Ok I have talked the lawyer and I have a plan to move forward.
> 
> 
> Before Final D-Day:
> ...


I would be very careful about your home office. Unless you are actively meeting clients there, I would move this as well. Consider the worst case: she breaks into your room, takes things or otherwise disrupts your business. Are you *really* going to pursue this in court (nightmare).

Rent some temp office space in a local business centre, there are businesses that specialize in this, if you have the means to do so. If you don't then your business probably isn't such that you can't just pack everything up and put it in storage for a few months.


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## Joe75 (Oct 12, 2013)

Hi SE

The following is offered for your consideration.

Cash. Do not underestimate the enticing power of cash on the table. Normally, spousal support can be paid in regular period of time or in a lump sum. Stacks of cash dancing as stars in her eyes could be alluring to your spouse. The advantage of a cash lump sum to you that it is normally an ending finite amount, especially in your case where there are no children to complicate matters. Further, the amount can be less than the total of alimony paid out for a ‘period of time’ or a share of asset such as a house. 

Two examples. First, one colleague of mine offered his spouse, no children involved, a lump sum in lieu of monthly alimony. Although substantial, this lump sum was less than the projected alimony he would have to pay for a set period of time. As an incentive to accept, he additionally offered to pay for professional schooling she needed. She readily accepted seeing the lump sum as financial freedom and he got a tax deduction for the professional schooling. Second, a friend wanted to keep the home that he inherited from his Dad in which his wife had an equal share (the house was in both of their names). He offered an amount less than her share as determined during mediation. Although she was aware of uncertainties associated with selling a house, she hesitated. Knowing that his spouse was most keen to move on and start anew with her affair partner, he tactically started to drag out the mediation process. The wife came back to the offer on the table and after some minor adjustments, she accepted. Both of this men’s short time financial pain/hardship was handsomely offset by the respective long-term gain.

“Get a lock for my office.” Notwithstanding your concerns about your wife being vindicated and that “she might destroy my property”. Unless (and in fact even if) there is evidence of past behaviour to this regard, I suggest you trend with caution here and only after considering legal advice. She may be vindicated; but, she is stupid enough to adversely affect her position during the divorce? If you still feel this way, then considered sapienta’s advice about moving your office as ‘part of the process of moving on with your new life post-divorce’. Adding to Blonde’s comment of “act with dignity yourself”, also ensure that your actions throughout this process would be perceived reasonable by an impartial third party, e.g. a judge. In this particular case, it is suggested that you do not arbitrary denied your wife access to parts of the house where she had had access before the decision to divorce. 

“I am going get boned hard in this”. It is interesting how many divorcing men see clearly immediate financial consequences but have difficult seeing the future financial possibilities. Noting that you are in a twenty-year marriage, I am assuming you are in your forties. If this is the case, you have approximately twenty workable years to financially recover and grow noting for a lot of men the highest income years are in the fifties/sixties years.

Also, do not forget the rich widow factor. Although, the preceding is somewhat tongue-in cheek, there is some truth to this. Once you have emotionally recovered from the divorce and are ready to date again, you will find there is numerous attractive women, with their own income, who would be interested in dating a decent fellow with no ex-wife baggage (once again with no children, communications with your ex-wife should eventually become non-existence) with the prospect of a relationship. In fact, that is what happen to my above friend. After his divorce, he had enough to life comfortably, but, not much left for travelling, etc. A year after his divorce, he met a rich divorcee who liked the cut of his jib. Life is now very good for him. 

Regards

Joe75


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## gouge_away (Apr 7, 2015)

I downloaded skyro to my phone, you can record from the lock screen, home screen with widget.


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

Joe75 said:


> Hi SE
> 
> The following is offered for your consideration.
> 
> ...


Great advice and thank you for this. 

I have been contemplating the right cash offer to hit her with for the same reason. I think she will find the big pile of money too much of a temptation. I think I also need to consider that the taxes are already paid on that lump sum I would give her and she would have to pay taxes on monthly support. But, if it I get her to take 20% less of her after tax amount, it would be worth doing. Though I don't want to see her destitute, there is added benefit to my own mental health of not seeing that big check go out to her every month. 

Unfortunately in my case, I think dragging it out is in my wife's advantage since the faster this progresses the sooner she will have to take responsibility for her herself and get a job. The Lawyer thinks we can get a court order to get her out of the house (with support) and a directive to get a job within a few weeks of filing, but I really want to avoid a fight. We are not wealthy but with $600k in assets after debt we have plenty to fight over.

You make a good point about the financial opportunity of being divorced. Moreover one of the reasons I am here is her inability to live to a budget. Last month she blew almost $4000, mostly on small purchases. I am paralyzed to buy anything of significance for myself because I have no idea how much money I really have and I don't want to make discretionary expenses without that knowledge. Too many years living paycheck paycheck in my youth. Anyway you slice my financial situation improves the moment I sever the community.

Rich widow? I will be thrilled with a life partner that has a job and a financial IQ.

Thanks again.


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

gouge_away said:


> I downloaded skyro to my phone, you can record from the lock screen, home screen with widget.


I think I will forgo the lock on my office and just remove anything I can't live without. Instead I am going to erect a drop cam in there that will store the video and audio off site instantly with their service. If she decides to act in bad faith the court will have that to consider.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

ScrambledEggs said:


> consider that the taxes are already paid on that lump sum I would give her and she would have to pay taxes on monthly support


Interesting point. Something to consider for sure.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

^Especially if she can take the money and apply it to a tax-sheltered retirement account such as a 401k. Not sure the rules or equivalent instruments in the US, but in Canada you get a tax deduction in the year the contribution is made.


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

the "lump sum" may not qualify for alimony and may not be deductible on your taxes.

You should look at the overall picture.


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

harrybrown said:


> the "lump sum" may not qualify for alimony and may not be deductible on your taxes.
> 
> You should look at the overall picture.


It can be a sound deal if it is part of a non-modifiable non-contested divorce agreement--at least in my state. In this case there would be no alimony and a favorable division for her. 

This will not work if it goes to the judge where he/she determines the division based on guidelines and, as you say, the lump sum would not be tied to alimony. 

Also court ordered dissolutions are subject to appeals (cannot be made non-modifiable) so if she sits on her ass for the alimony period, she can come back and ask for more if she does not have her life together. It is a two edged sword though. With an agreement like this, I also go back and ask for it to be lowered or shortened if my income dropped or she came into money/marriage.

Thanks for your comments.


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