# Wife wants a break



## Jacksonp

Looking for a way to handle this.

I have been married 20 years. Which now I can see really wasn't a marriage. Just 2 people living together. I believe mainly because she hasn't shown me any affection unless I start something with her. She say's she's not an affectionate person. Through the years I just got use to it, but the last 2 years I haven't shown any to her because I feel I should always have to initiate it. Well 3 weeks ago she told me she needed a break from our marriage. 

I still have been in the house looking for an apartment. Through the last 3 weeks I have try to change her mind, because I don't want this marriage to end because I still love her. She is a very awesome person and has taken care of me throughout this whole marriage. 

At this time I have an apartment lined up, but I don't want to leave. Yesterday I spend the whole day writing a letter to her and had her read. At the end of the letter I told her to answer by say 1. If you want me to leave the house tell me this is the end of the marriage or 2. Give me another chance and he can try to worth through this. 

She spent 3 hours crying in the bedroom and when she came out I asked her what she can up with and she said if I can't give her a break than I guess this is the end.

My heart broke right there I wasn't prepared for that answer. I asked her if you don't love me anymore why are you still wearing her wedding ring and she responded I didn't say I didn't love you I still care about you.

I'm very confused now. I don't understand why she needs me to leave the house to get her feelings in order. I can't see us getting back together if I leave. Should I just move on? After she say's well I guess it done should I believe that's what she wants or is it that she really wants to to work things out and I just need to leave for her to figure it out?


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## DailyGrind

Read my thread! I went through something very similar. Do you have kids? Why are YOU leaving the home, if SHE wants the break? Odds are ...there is someone else. Start snooping....and....stay where you are. Don't leave.


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## keko

DO NOT move out of the house.

When she is not around look through her phone/email/facebook for anyhting out of the ordinary.

Chances are, there is another man she gave her heart to maybe her body as well.


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## bandit.45

Why are you moving out? If she wants a break she should leave. 

Sounds like she has found a replacement for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jacksonp

The reason I'm leaving is one she wants me too and two I don't want to be here if she isn't here. 

I really don't think she is seeing anyone else, but who knows she could be I guess. 

I just don't understand if you tell someone that if you leave the marriage is over and they just let you go. Why would anyone take the chance of that, if they believe there still could be a chance they don't want the relationship to end.


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## Lon

When someone wants a "break" from the marriage you have to realize its never so they can "find themselves" its so they can try out something that is way outside the bounds of matrimony.

Do NOT leave because "she" wants you to, move only if it is your better option, and if you have kids that live there, for most people keeping the family home as intact is possible is the better option.


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## DanF

1) She wants to take a "break" or end it, then she should be the one that is inconvenienced.
2) Almost every time that one person in a relationship needs a "break", it is to explore options with someone else. It the other partner doesn't work out, she will come back to with renewed feelings.

You need to do some snooping.


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## keko

Jacksonp said:


> The reason I'm leaving is one she wants me too


Oh.. how nice of you to obey to your wife's commands.

What would you do after you leave you hear another man is in your house?

I suggest you start digging up ASAP what I advised earlier.


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## DailyGrind

Jacksonp said:


> The reason I'm leaving is one she wants me too and two I don't want to be here if she isn't here.
> 
> I really don't think she is seeing anyone else, but who knows she could be I guess.
> 
> I just don't understand if you tell someone that if you leave the marriage is over and they just let you go. Why would anyone take the chance of that, if they believe there still could be a chance they don't want the relationship to end.


My wife told me she thought she wanted a divorce. She told me she wanted "space." She told me she didn't see us together. She told me she didn't know if she loved me anymore. We spent two years nearly ignoring each other, except for the kids and financial things. I found out she was just starting an EA end of October. Thankfully, I caught it in time. It took 6 months of work...on both our parts...but...admittedly more on me...at least at first. She had harbored resentments toward me, for every little thing...for years. It took (I think) me FIGHTING for the marriage, for her to realize I truly DID love her. I told her, and showed her (I thought) every day that I loved her. BUT...I wasn't speaking her language (research love language). I wasn't giving her the ONE thing that, to her, showed my love.......I wasn't giving her enough quality time.

Point is....there may be damage. I WOULD require YOU to figure that out...and make changes. There probably IS someone else causing her to make a move, at this point. Find out WHO that is. STOP IT....work on yourself....make yourself a better person. And you know what you may get, in return?? Right now....I have a wife that is every bit as loving, and caring as I could ever possibly hope for. I make sure to speak her language every day. We just texted each other, earlier, how happy we both were....how we both feel more connected than we ever did. We feel so much more like partners, than ever. It CAN be done. 

BUT...ask yourself.....do you want this marriage? If not.....do the 180...and get away. If so....find out who this other person is (I nearly guarantee there IS someone.) I Never, Never, Never, Never, NEVER thought my wife would start an EA with someone else (and you should see who this loser was.....ewwwww.) Find out.....expose....yes..she will get mad. But...I promise...if MY wife can get over that...so will yours. It may take a few months of patience....but....it COULD be worth it.....if you learn from this.

Let us know.....you will get good advice here. And TRUST me....I had to follow some advice from here that I NEVER thought would make a difference. Sometimes....you just have to listen...and act. There were a few pivotal points, when I got advice...i just thought couldn't be right. But....I figured...what do I have to lose....I followed it...and, thankfully...it worked out. I wish you luck.....it will get much harder, before it gets better. But..whatever your choices are....it WILL get better.


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## Halien

To be honest, I don't understand your logic. It seems like the one who wants to save the marriage should stay in the marriage and the marriage home. If she wants to leave the marriage ..... well ... notice the word "leave"? Why not tell her that you want the marriage, and if she wants out, SHE must find the way out. Legally, there is nothing requiring you to leave. Ethically and morally, there is also nothing requiring you to leave.

The point is that you are making it easy for her to divorce. Why enable it? It would be an entirely different scenario if you cling to the marriage, the home, and an expectation that you'll be working together on counselling. Don't enable behaviors that destroy this vision.


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## tacoma

Do not leave your home.

She wants a "break" then she can leave.

If I were you she`d not be welcome if/when she tried to return.

Are you aware that she`s most likely involved or wants to be involved with another man?

There`s no other reason for wanting a "break"


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## tacoma

Jacksonp said:


> I just don't understand if you tell someone that if you leave the marriage is over and they just let you go. Why would anyone take the chance of that, if they believe there still could be a chance they don't want the relationship to end.


Because they don`t believe you have the balls to end it.

You have to show her you do have the balls.

You have to refuse to leave, if she wants out she leaves.

You have to start investigating what she`s up to, who she`s with and what she`s doing when you`re not around.

There is a reason for her wanting a "break" but she isn`t going to tell you about it.
You have to find it or him.


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## Jacksonp

Thanks for all the advice. I believe your right I'm going stay here. If she really wants this marriage to end she will leave. Than I can pick up the pieces after that.


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## keko

Jacksonp said:


> Thanks for all the advice. I believe your right I'm going stay here. If she really wants this marriage to end she will leave. Than I can pick up the pieces after that.


Have you looked at her text/call logs yet? Email and facebook messages?


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## Jacksonp

No I don't even know to check text messages on a phone. I don't one a cell phone. She does though.


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## Shaggy

Do not pay or financially support her leaving either. If she wants to leave she pays, but she also has to continue any financial obligations to you such as mortgage etc. she needs to understand that just withdrawing isn't an option. She must pay her way and meet her existing commitments. Yeah she won't like that, but it's called being an adult..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jacksonp

Shaggy ya she owes more than I do on her stuff. She said she would just get a part time job to pay for the extra stuff. I wont pay for her stuff. We already talked about this when I said I was going to move out.


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## keko

Which phone is she using?

Computer?


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## Jacksonp

phone but I don't know the brand


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## DailyGrind

Jacksonp said:


> phone but I don't know the brand


Get to work on this. It's top of the ninth, two outs...and your team is far behind. She's way ahead of you, buddy. Trust me...I know what you are going through. You are doubting and magnifying all your "mistakes." You are questioning your worth. You are confused....lost.....can't process the changes in this person. You need to connect the dots. You can't fight an enemy you don't see. Once you have knowledge...you will see Oh so much clearer. Maybe she is one of those women that just goes wayward (research wayward wife) without outside interference. But...99/100 times.....there IS someone.


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## PBear

DailyGrind said:


> Get to work on this. It's top of the ninth, two outs...and your team is far behind. She's way ahead of you, buddy. Trust me...I know what you are going through. You are doubting and magnifying all your "mistakes." You are questioning your worth. You are confused....lost.....can't process the changes in this person. You need to connect the dots. You can't fight an enemy you don't see. Once you have knowledge...you will see Oh so much clearer. Maybe she is one of those women that just goes wayward (research wayward wife) without outside interference. But...99/100 times.....there IS someone.


It's "walk away wife"... Wayward wives (and husbands) are the cheaters.

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DailyGrind

PBear said:


> It's "walk away wife"... Wayward wives (and husbands) are the cheaters.
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


so correct...my bad.


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## Jacksonp

That's it. Holy crap Thanks Pbear for the correction. Thank DailyGrind for say something about this. I read the description of walk away wife and it is exactly what she is doing.


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## DailyGrind

Jacksonp said:


> That's it. Holy crap Thanks Pbear for the correction. Thank DailyGrind for say something about this. I read the description of walk away wife and it is exactly what she is doing.


Get ahold of the cell phone bill....look at the call/text history. I guarantee something stands out there. Does she work? You never did answer if you have kids. When did you notice a change? Did something happen at that time (new job, new neighbors, life change)?


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## Jacksonp

oh yes i do I have 2 daughters 18 and 17. They both graduate in a month. My youngest daughter is going away to college this summer.


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## keko

How about her work schedule, is she coming late from work? Working on weekends? 

Did she start wearing sexy lingerie or clothes? 

Is she having long shopping trips?


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## Jacksonp

No none of that. She told me a week again that this wasn't about her seeing anyone she just needed a break to work out her feelings. I understand completely that she is messed up and most of it is my fault. The thing that makes me mad that I didn't look for ways to make this marriage better along time ago. Now it may just be too late. I have told her several times in the past that I was unhappy about her not being affectionate, but I did it all in the wrong ways. Usually when everything was built up and than I would just blow up.


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## DailyGrind

Jacksonp said:


> No none of that. She told me a week again that this wasn't about her seeing anyone she just needed a break to work out her feelings. *I understand completely that she is messed up and most of it is my fault.* The thing that makes me mad that I didn't look for ways to make this marriage better along time ago. Now it may just be too late. I have told her several times in the past that I was unhappy about her not being affectionate, but I did it all in the wrong ways. Usually when everything was built up and than I would just blow up.


How so?


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## tacoma

Jacksonp said:


> No none of that. She told me a week again that this wasn't about her seeing anyone she just needed a break to work out her feelings. I understand completely that she is messed up and most of it is my fault. The thing that makes me mad that I didn't look for ways to make this marriage better along time ago. Now it may just be too late. I have told her several times in the past that I was unhappy about her not being affectionate, but I did it all in the wrong ways. Usually when everything was built up and than I would just blow up.


Your revelation about your kids is telling.

This might not be an infidelity issue.
(I`d still check it out to cross it off the list)

Your kids are of age right now and now your wife wants "space"?

She`s been planning this for awhile I`d bet.


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## Jacksonp

My fault for not being a good husband. I should of talked to her more I should of done more things around the house, helping her out more, talked more about my feelings. I know it's a lot of my fault for the feelings she has. I just didn't realize this until she said I want a break. I feel so stupid that I didn't realize this before. I really didn't think things were that bad.


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## Jacksonp

Thank you for responding to this thread techgurl. I really don't believe she is messing around on me, but it could be happening too. I just want her back. I don't care about anything else at this point, if it is over than I can deal with that too. The thing that is killing me is the unknown. I don't know if it is over or not. I believe this would be easier if I knew. I don't want to sitting in some place waiting for something that is never going to happen. She keeps saying maybe I'll change my mind I just don't know what to tell you.
And I'm thinking about the unknown that gets me no where.


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## sandc

She is trying to decide between you and the other man.


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## Lon

techgurl, so I'm just curious, your marriage then is technically "on hold"? How long have you both agreed to keep it on hold for?

To me its seems with marriage both partners have to be completely in, or else there is no marriage.

So for you is it just a time to decide if you want divorce or reconciliation?


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## iheartlife

Jacksonp:
PLEASE read DailyGrind's thread. It is very long because it evolved in real time. But you will see that it went from where you are now (his situation did catch his wife starting to be unfaithful) to revitalizing his marriage.

You can pull it back from the brink.


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## Toffer

So this is all your fault because you are not clairvoyent?

Did she ever approach you and tell you she needed these things from you or that she was feeling disconnected in some way?

While I agree that you own some of the marriage issues, you don't own them all

I am sorry to say that while she may not be in an affair it's possible she's considering one based on what I've seen here so far


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## Jacksonp

No she never really said anything to me to help out or anything. She never nags me about anything. We just never really communicate on anything. We just go with the flow. I should of know better I just took advantage of her. Your right I'm not blaming me for everything she definitely is part of the problem. but I feel that's besides the point because I'm really not mad at her for anything. Except for breaking my heart with this stunt she is pulling on me. Now I have a good understanding on what I did wrong and that is the first step.


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## This is me

Be aware this does not always mean an affair with the other sex. Sometimes the emotional attachment can be caused by a girlfriend, sister or multiple people giving her the support she wants to hear, not challenging her and not supporting the marriage for whatever reasons.

The Walk Away Wife is very similiar to a Midlife Crisis and can make them see things in a foggy way. From your earliest post here I see she still loves you but is confused and looking for space. Again, this does not always mean a PA, maybe an EA which can be as damaging to the attachment.

Read Divorce Busters. Do not move out. Let her do it if she needs space. Be patient if you want to save the marriage as it could take months, maybe years till the fog lifts.

Best wishes!


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## mompres

My hair is curling reading all these responses. As an unhappy wife, just because someone needs a break doesn't mean the person is cheating. It doesn't mean she isn't but it's not proof that she is. Maybe she just can't handle the way the marriage is right now. You say you love her and that she is awesome yet you stopped the intimacy because you always had to initiate it. Well she could see that as you moving away emotionally and if she came on these boards these same people telling you she is having an affair would tell her that the reason you stopped sleeping with her is because you are having an affair. As for who leaves, that's a dicey one. I'm an at home mom and asked him to leave since I don't have a paying job so can't really go. But he refused and has chosen open warfare. I'm just pointing out a different perspective. If she isn't cheating and you do all this snooping and she finds out then that's really the end. So think hard about this. If you have no kids then staying isn't as bad a situation but only until you divorce. It sucks living with someone when it's truly over. Don't let that go on too long staying trapped. Good luck.


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## DanF

techgurl1281 said:


> I am in a similar situation only I initiated the need for a break. My reasons are not to go be with a another man.
> 
> As we've talked more over the past week more things have come to light. We are both guilty of an EA, not sure which of us fell trap to it first but it happend.



So which is it?
If you or he had an EA, you or he were cheating.


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## bandit.45

Jacksonp said:


> No she never really said anything to me to help out or anything. She never nags me about anything. We just never really communicate on anything. We just go with the flow. I should of know better I just took advantage of her. Your right I'm not blaming me for everything she definitely is part of the problem. but I feel that's besides the point because I'm really not mad at her for anything. Except for breaking my heart with this stunt she is pulling on me. Now I have a good understanding on what I did wrong and that is the first step.


Then if she never raised any complaints during all those years of your marriage, she has no right to hang them over your head now. You need to call BS on that because BS is what that is. She is as responsible for the sorry state of your marriage as you are.

I say file for Divorce. Be the proactive one, because if this is her attitude I do not think she is coming back. 

Just don't let her blame you for the failure of the marriage. She owns it as much as you.


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## Jacksonp

We had a long talk tonight and I decided I'm moving out at the end of the month. I don't want to make this worse. I told her I want this marriage to work and she said she needs to get her life in order first. I still don't understand it fully. I know she is hurting inside and I know she feels bad that I feel bad over this, but what is done is done. She said if she wanted this over she would of asked for divorce, so the door is still open from what I can tell. I believe she knows I'm sincere on making this marriage work, but she just isn't ready. The funny thing is when we are not talking about my feelings about this. We really get along like nothing has happened. I'm just going to start working on myself and see what happens. I know I'm going to feel terrible when I move. All I know is whatever happens I don't ever want to feel this way again.


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## Jacksonp

Bandit she isn't saying it's my fault either she isn't really saying anything about her feelings. She just say's she feel depressed and numb from this marriage and she needs a break from it. She said she can't deal with this with me always around. She said she feels smothered.


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## DanF

techgurl1281 said:


> Yes, but maybe my understanding of an emotional affair is wrong. When I say ea I simply mean that we have sought emotional support and comfort from people outside of our relationship. And sought out attention from others that make us feel attractive and wanted...does that constitute as cheatiing still?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes.
That is an emotional affair.



It's wrong and it's cheating.


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## dazedguy

@Jackson

I'm sorry you're both going through this. Having been on the receiving end of my wife's request for a "break" (15 months ago and counting) and with the benefit of hindsight I do think you need to focus on yourself right now - trying to beg, plead, control, influence, or manipulate your wife will only give her less of a reason to seriously consider the fragility of your marriage because she'll know you'll be there ready and willing to work on things whenever and if ever she comes around. Take care of yourself and leave her be until she is ready to work on things. 

And I agree with the other comments that your moving out is a decision you will very likely regret later.


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## Jacksonp

Yes, maybe I will, but I don't have any attachment to this house. Where I'm moving it's nicer than this place. If a lot of the people are right and she is sleeping around on me than thats ok than I know and can move on from that.
I just need to get away. I think I know what she is talking about the comment that she made about me being in her face all the time and you can't think about anything. To me that's running away from the problem rather than facing it, but what do i know.


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## bandit.45

Your kids are grown, and if you have a nicer place to go then do so. 

Your wife most likely checked out on you years ago. She only stayed for the kids, most likely. Sorry you are going through this friend.

When you move out you need to move on also. Start building a new life without her as a free man. And you need to give her a strict deadline: if she does not make her decision within 3 - 6 months, tell her on such and such date you will file for divorce.


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## Jacksonp

I asked her this morning straight blank. Are you seeing someone else or thinking of seeing someone else? She said no and I truly believe her. I wanted to see the reaction when I asked her. I feel relieved. 
I broke down and told her that I feel miserable and there is like a cloud over me that just doesn't go away. She said she feels that way also, but she keeps working and doing stuff so she don't have to think about it. To me that is running away from the problem. I am so upset that she wants to pack this stuff away and not deal with it with me. 
Today I'm going to stop telling her how I feel and try to distance myself from her. I feel troubled by this because I don't want her to feel I don't want to be around her, but at the same time I feel I'm smothering her.


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## Jacksonp

To techgirl: I don't understand why you just don't give him another chance. I believe he has finally seen the light and it is real. People that are set in their ways don't change their behavior overnight, unless they believe they really need to change. I have went through a full self inventory of myself. I really listened to what she said and realized what I was doing. This is something that can't be faked, because how would the person know how to do if they didn't really think about it. Like I told my wife I really didn't know what was going on. I meant it, I didn't I realize until now because I really had to dig down deep and take a honest inventory of myself.


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## Jacksonp

I also understand that the way she has treated me caused some of my behaviors, but the fact is no matter how I was treated I should of done more to help her realize how I was feeling. If I would have done that many years ago. I wouldn't be where I'm today.


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## bandit.45

Break away an start doing the 180.

The link is below on my signature line.


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## Jacksonp

I have read this 180 rule before, but how will she know if I'm changing if I'm basically ignoring her. I feel that I was doing the 180 before this mess and that is what caused the problem.


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## Jacksonp

I guess I'm reading over it too quickly. I'm missing some of the important steps. Thanks I will give it a try.


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## Jacksonp

I see what your saying techgirl. If I get one more chance I'm going to make sure my needs are met also. The communication problem needs to be fixed and there will need to be more affection in this marriage or it will not work. I already told her this. Last week we had such a great week we were talking about stuff we never talk about and doing things with a smile. I felt happy and thought she was to. I asked her about that and she said she felt the same way but it was so weird that we spend the 2 weeks before that not talking and than last week we were actually having a good time. I believe that was the true 180 rule with some hiccups. She is probably thinking the same way you are. I'm going to make vow not to say anything about this marriage until she says something to me about. I'm going to buy some books and learn more and I'm going to quit being so hard on myself. I know what the problems were and what caused them. She is going to need to show me also what went wrong and prove to me that she is going to put effort in this marriage. I believe once I see this we will be back together or not. 6 months is the deadline.


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## turnera

techgurl1281 said:


> Yes, but maybe my understanding of an emotional affair is wrong. When I say ea I simply mean that we have sought emotional support and comfort from people outside of our relationship. And sought out attention from others that make us feel attractive and wanted...does that constitute as cheatiing still?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 If you won't share your conversations with another man with your husband, if you can't say what you say to him in front of your husband, you are cheating.


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## turnera

Jacksonp said:


> I know I'm going to feel terrible when I move.


Then don't move! Geesh!

SHE wants out of the marriage, SHE can leave. The #1 mistake men make when their wife is cheating or is a WAW is to try to kiss up to her to 'make up' for whatever she may say is wrong. That is EXTREMELY unattractive to women. Women NEED their men to be strong, protecting, and taking charge. You are doing none of that. 

Do not leave your house, find someone to help you check her phone and computer for a 'mysterious' number/address that she uses a LOT (that will be her affair partner), and when you find that proof, tell her you know she's cheating and you want her to stop. When she refuses, you tell her parents/siblings and ask them to help you get the 2nd man out of your marriage so you can have a fair chance at fixing the marriage. You will never fix it when she's given her allegiance to another man.


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## turnera

To amend, if you don't like the house AND the kids are all moved out, then go ahead and move. But ONLY do so if you are no longer paying for anything to do with the house she lives in. She wants out of the marriage, she can pay for her new life. Please don't give her money to break your heart.


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## Jacksonp

Ya, I'm not paying for any of her stuff, I couldn't afford to give her any money anyways. That's the kicker too she knows she don't have enough to live on and she still wants to me to go. She will be able to get by but nothing left over.


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## turnera

Go get the book His Needs Her Needs. It will tell you everything you need to know. And the book 5 Love Languages will help make it work.


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## turnera

Do you have your own thread?


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## J'Accused

Please cehck out my other post, brother DO NOT LEAVE THE MARITAL RESIDENCE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, My wif pulled the same crap because of social media and she think she wants young bodybuilder, let her go, tough I know, Im there, 20 year relationship too, but if you leave you will get crucified as hard as it may be stay in that home


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## Jacksonp

Well I was going to sign a 6 month lease today, but of course the manager said I have to wait till tomorrow. I just want to get this started already. J'Accused it don't bother me leaving the house. What bothers me that I wont be with my wife. The unknown of this marriage status is killing me. I need to find a way to deal with this. That makes me feel half way normal. As long as I'm in the house and I see her everyday I keep thinking about everything and I'm tired rehashing this stuff over and over again in my head. No matter what I do I keep thinking about everything. The sad thing is a feel better now because I'm mad at this situation now. I realize there in nothing I can do to stop this separation. I don't understand what good it can do. I know I'm thinking selfishly, but I think it's probability because I don't see a light at the end a the tunnel.


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## J'Accused

Well I hear you brother, its been 6 month since my wife left and i miss her more each day. I comes down to the type of person you are and whats important, Im a homebody but its painful because we spent 10 years together in this house, plus we have 2 young children which complicates things, but i can see the desire to get out and start your new life and that process will distract you from the heartache, I just know for 19 years i never said "no" to this woman but I dont feel this marriage should end so i wasnt leaving


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## Jacksonp

Well I sign a 6 month least today and it wasn't as heart wrenching as I thought it would be. This may change when I move out at the end of the month though. I had a great day with my wife. She really talks to me now, she really never did this much before. Maybe it's just happy that I'm moving out, but I don't think so. I think she is testing me and i believe this 6 months is just going to be a test. She said 2 things yesterday morning when I was upset. One she said if we get together again she isn't going to let herself feel the way she does now and two I told her how is she going to know if i changed if I'm not in the house and she said she will see if the changes she see now will still be happening when I'm around. What we worked out is she still want to talk to me during the week over the phone and we are going to spend 1 day every week end together. Now for someone that doesn't want this to work. We wouldn't be talking about stuff like that. So right now I'm kinda in a positive place. The cloud seems like it has lifted a bit. Now i can see that I just need to work on my problems and show her I'm the husband she wants. We should get back together. At least I believe there's more than a 50% shot at this. I need to stick to the 180 rule and really work on my self.


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## bandit.45

She's going to start dating other guys the second you walk out. 

If I'm wrong I'll eat my other hat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jacksonp

I really don't think so, but if she does that will be the end and I will move on. I'm not going to even really think about right now. I confronted her on this and I believe her.


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## iheartlife

turnera said:


> Go get the book His Needs Her Needs. It will tell you everything you need to know. And the book 5 Love Languages will help make it work.


This goes for you, too, Jacksonp.


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## Jacksonp

ok iheartlife, I will buy them and read them


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## keko

Jacksonp said:


> I confronted her on this and I believe her.


You're one of the nicest guys I've seen in a long time. :smthumbup:


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## Jacksonp

Or maybe just a fool. I have been with her for 20 years and she has never lied to me before. I just trust her I guess.


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## The lost Husband

I don't get this. I was taught to always take care of the one you love. Why is it that these women feel its perfectly ok to just up and leave you with all the responsibility and hurt. While they go out and give all your hard work and dreams to another man that didn't do a thing to deserve what it is he's getting. My wife of 20 years (about)said the same thing. I found out she had another man. I have the kids and have to do my best to keep it together for them. I don't get this at all. How can someone give up 20 years of memories, and dreams. Sorry for sounding so bitter but I mean damn, it's like I read at least one of these types of post a day. What do you women want? Should my next (if there is one) pay for all the mistakes my ex made. Or should I shower her with love as well only to be crushed again. Ugh WTF.


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## The lost Husband

Sorry for venting on your post. Just frustrated. 
You should check out my post "on my last leg". You sound just like I did.


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## EleGirl

The lost Husband said:


> I don't get this. I was taught to always take care of the one you love. Why is it that these women feel its perfectly ok to just up and leave you with all the responsibility and hurt. While they go out and give all your hard work and dreams to another man that didn't do a thing to deserve what it is he's getting. My wife of 20 years (about)said the same thing. I found out she had another man. I have the kids and have to do my best to keep it together for them. I don't get this at all. How can someone give up 20 years of memories, and dreams. Sorry for sounding so bitter but I mean damn, it's like I read at least one of these types of post a day. What do you women want? Should my next (if there is one) pay for all the mistakes my ex made. Or should I shower her with love as well only to be crushed again. Ugh WTF.


When you can answer why some men do the same thing, you will have the answer for why some women do it too.

This is not something that just women do.


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## EleGirl

Jacksonp said:


> Ya, I'm not paying for any of her stuff, I couldn't afford to give her any money anyways. That's the kicker too she knows she don't have enough to live on and she still wants to me to go. She will be able to get by but nothing left over.


Does your wife earn less than you do? You have a long term marriage. Depending on the state you live in, she might be able to get life long support from YOU.

Do you know your state's divore laws and where you stand in this?

My take is that you are so being setup. She's being nice until you move out. She was most likely talkative today because she can hardly believe it was this easy to get you out of the house.

The quickest way to solidify the end of a marriage is a physical separation. Couples seldom get back together after separating. Absence does not make the heart grow fonder.


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## The lost Husband

From what I've been told by friends that have left thief wives. They felt as though they have been taken advantage of and that's why they leave. Is it possible for a woman to feel this way as well? Of coarse. But from what I've seen both on this site and off. That's more the acception then the rule.


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## EleGirl

The lost Husband said:


> From what I've been told by friends that have left thief wives. They felt as though they have been taken advantage of and that's why they leave. Is it possible for a woman to feel this way as well? Of coarse. But from what I've seen both on this site and off. That's more the acception then the rule.


What's more the exception then the rule... you think that women don't get taken advantage of by their husbands when their husbands cheat and leave them for other women? Really?


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## The lost Husband

Not what I'm saying. I know tons of men split on their wives and tons of wives have been took advantage of. But often times not for the same reasons. Men and women are completely two different species. 
I'm saying from what I've seen is a lot of men take complete care of the entire house financially and emotionally speaking. Only to get railroaded at the end. Can this happen to a woman of coarse. But from what I've seen not nearly as much as it does to men. Look not trying to make this men vs women. Just talking about the situation at hand. Sorry if I've offended you.


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## Davi

Why are YOU leaving the home, if SHE wants the break? Odds are ...there is someone else. Start snooping....and....stay where you are. Don't leave.


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## Jacksonp

I talked to my wife before I went to bed last night. I expressed that during this 6 month separation that I was going to work on learning more about myself and working on getting this marriage back on track. I stated that this time we should be working on ourselves and not be seeing anyone else during this period and she see said that's all she wanted. I also stated if the there was a feeling that either one of had a feeling of seeing someone else that we would stop the separation and end the relationship and she agreed. It was a good talk that we had.


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## tacoma

Jackson there is a minuscule chance your wife is being straight with you.

I truly hope this infinitesimal chance of sincerity is what is going on with you and your wife but I have to tell you I see a train wreck on this thread in the not so distant future.

You sound like you want this marriage pretty bad so I`m having a hard time figuring out why you`re just letting it slip away without the slightest bit of a fight.

Do not leave your house.
Have you even placed any snooping devices around her at all?

You`re making decisions based on what are probably lies.
Find the truth for yourself if you really want this marriage.

There`s a chance if she is in an affair it hasn`t gone physical, there`s a chance this can be fixed relatively easily.

You move out it will go physical and there may be no chance at all.

Screw the lease stay in your home!!


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## bandit.45

EleGirl said:


> When you can answer why some men do the same thing, you will have the answer for why some women do it too.
> 
> This is not something that just women do.


A selfish bast*rd is a selfish bast*rd: man or woman.


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## bandit.45

Jacksonp said:


> I talked to my wife before I went to bed last night. I expressed that during this 6 month separation that I was going to work on learning more about myself and working on getting this marriage back on track. I stated that this time we should be working on ourselves and not be seeing anyone else during this period and she see said that's all she wanted. I also stated if the there was a feeling that either one of had a feeling of seeing someone else that we would stop the separation and end the relationship and she agreed. It was a good talk that we had.


Okay...

You just gave her permission to cheat and divorce you.

Yeah, good talk.


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## mompres

Marriage takes two people and rarely when it ends is it one person's fault only. Sure it can happen that someone is absolutely blindsided but I think many choose to be blind. To their own faults and where they could do better and to the problems in the relationship. Just sayin. Posts where someone loved their spouse so much and gave them everything and did everything for them and had no idea he/she wasn't happy wreaks of denial.


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## Jacksonp

It seems alot of people believe separation means the other person wants to go out and sleep with someone else. Now if I was 15 years younger I could see that. I'm not giving up without a fight I just believe if I don't do this I will lose her. Who knows it may be good for me too. I already gave her permission to divorce me and she didn't take it, if she wanted to sleep around on me she could of done this before.


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## Jacksonp

I also understand since so many people say this on this board see's it happens alot. I am ready for that situation if it arises. I can handle being angry over being hurt. If she does this it just shows she really don't love me, but I would be very hurt if this is a lie. But me staying in this house is not going to prevent this from happening. It's not like I live in a 300k house and losing anything. I sure I will be back here in 6 months anyways.


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## keko

Jacksonp said:


> It seems alot of people believe separation means the other person wants to go out and sleep with someone else. Now if I was 15 years younger I could see that. I'm not giving up without a fight I just believe if I don't do this I will lose her. Who knows it may be good for me too. I already gave her permission to divorce me and she didn't take it, if she wanted to sleep around on me she could of done this before.


You don't get it do you? People cheat even in their 60s. No cheater will admit they want to sleep around. Have a look at the "coping with infidelity" section and see how many cheating wife's string along their husbands while they go out live a single life but have the security of a marriage/betrayed spouse waiting for them.

Well you refused to do the snooping but in the end it's going to bite you in the back side. Even more so since you left the house right away.

Make sure to give an update.


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## iheartlife

Jacksonp said:


> It seems alot of people believe separation means the other person wants to go out and sleep with someone else.


You know, intentions can be pure, but physical separation in a weak marriage rarely makes it stronger. You can go off and "work on yourselves" apart, but the point of marriage is to grow and change together.



> I already gave her permission to divorce me and she didn't take it


I want to concede first that while you have various red flags that could indicate cheating, you aren't double checking whether or not that is the case. So let's concede for a moment that perhaps she is definitively not cheating.

Please understand something about people who conduct affairs. The reason they cause so much unhappiness and angst is that they don't operate in the world of logic, they operate in a world of fantasy. This means, a spouse becomes unhappy in their marriage. They fail to communicate this to you, or to request counseling. They find a willing partner. The fantasy takes off, and once it does, they are powerfully motivated to lie about it.

The strangest thing--really, it's quite remarkable when you think about it--is that cheaters, the vast majority of the time, DON'T request a divorce and DON'T take up a threat of a divorce once the affair is discovered. This is because divorces are messy, and the affair partner may or may not be someone they want to run off with. The fantasy is perpetuated, believe it or not, by STAYING married and having their fun on the side.

Again, none of this means that she is having an affair. But until you've been educated about how infidelity works, you are just like every other betrayed spouse, who thought it could never happen to them.

Best wishes as you find yourselves while separated, I sincerely hope it works out for the two of you. And no one will say I told you so if it doesn't, so feel free to give us updates on your progress.


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## turnera

You can spend the next 6 months reading all the threads of betrayed husbands, and see what has worked and what hasn't. You'll start to see a pattern. Those who gave in to the wife, gave them a separation, gave them space, moved to the basement...out of fear of losing their wives...lost their wives.


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## River1977

Jacksonp said:


> My fault for not being a good husband. I should of talked to her more I should of done more things around the house, helping her out more, talked more about my feelings. I know it's a lot of my fault for the feelings she has. I just didn't realize this until she said I want a break. I feel so stupid that I didn't realize this before. I really didn't think things were that bad.


JacksonP, what I normally try to do when reading these forums is read between the lines of what is stated, especially when I have an inkling there may be more to the story. I try to relate to both parties when the expressions from of both are presented, as you have done here in your thread. I must say it makes no sense to me that your wife wants a separation for the reasons that you stated. Additionally, I am trying to understand why you take so much responsibility for the present state of your marriage for those same reasons. The reasons, themselves, are not nearly enough. It's not enough for you to feel so at fault just because you didn't wash dishes. Nor would your wife want time away from you just because she couldn't get you to vacuum or talk to her more about your feelings. There is more to this story. There's way more. And, you did offer me some clues, such as saying how much you have changed, as well as telling us that she notices the changes and wants to make sure the changes in you are lasting and permanent. See what I mean? I was sure there was more. There had to be a reason she needs a break, and she certainly would not be able to tell you have permanently changed if you're not there in the house doing the laundry. But again, that was not the issue to begin with.

I'm not accusing you of anything. I realize it's difficult to know how much you need to divulge when you're mainly looking for a place to vent your feelings. When you feel your whole world is turned upside down, what you need is to get things off your chest and know someone is listening. But, you don't necessarily feel you need to tell us every detail of your 20-year marriage. What happened, though, is almost of your 7 pages of responses trying to convince you that your wife is either having some type of affair, or she wants to have one. The result is limited solutions based on limited information.

I'm not asking you to tell us more, but I am asking you to dig down deeper within yourself to try to find the real reasons this is happening. If you are not honest with yourself, you cannot be honest with your wife. Whatever transpired, whatever took place during the marriage will remain a problem if the two of you get back together at some point. You will fall back into those same routines because circumstantial change is prompted, well prompted by the current circumstances. Change without sincere reflection and self discovery will only be superficial and temporary. You both need to know what happened and why it happened, and why it came to this. You need to know what she did, what you did, and why.

I wonder if this thread by another member will sound familiar to you. If it does sound familiar, it will surely explain a lot, and I hope my response to him will be helpful to you. No one ever knows the impact their actions and behaviors have on their spouse because you are not in her skin and have no idea how she feels. You say several times that she never told you anything, but I am willing to bet she did. I feel sure she did because women always do. As another member mentioned, you didn't listen and probably minimized what she said as having little importance because you either didn't agree or didn't want to allow her to change how you are. As a result, you didn't recognize there would be any impact and didn't know or accept how badly she needed you to change.



bandit.45 said:


> Your wife most likely checked out on you years ago. She only stayed for the kids, most likely. Sorry you are going through this friend.
> 
> When you move out you need to move on also. Start building a new life without her as a free man. And you need to give her a strict deadline: if she does not make her decision within 3 - 6 months, tell her on such and such date you will file for divorce.


It's very possible she checked out long ago and only stayed until the kids finished high school, making that decision after she stopped trying and gave up hope that you would change. You read the Walk-Away Wife article. You know how often that happens, but it's not a terrible thing to say if she felt pushed to that point.....that point where she finally figured out there WAS no point.

But, I implore you, JacksonP, to please stop listening to these men and women who have not taken one step in your wife's shoes. They cannot help you or your marriage if you were to your wife as in the post I linked above. Their advice will only make it much worse. If the matter is such that your wife is having or wants to have an affair, then listen to them all you want, and I note here that the 180 is suggested for people whose spouse has or is having an affair. But then, the member violated the 180 in his advice to you because the 180 tells you not to to speak of the future with your wayward wife. 

Again, if her having an affair is not the underlying issue and it's more like the story in my link, then by all means give her a strict deadline as if she is in any mood or frame of mind for you trying to exert any more power and control over her. (In case you didn't catch that, I was being extremely sarcastic.) If you were an inconsiderate and insensitive jerk to your wife for x number of years, why take people's advice to be an inconsiderate and insensitive jerk to your wife? What change exactly is that to exhibit to your wife, and how will it help the marriage being that way may well have destroyed?



Jacksonp said:


> I have read this 180 rule before, but how will she know if I'm changing if I'm basically ignoring her. I feel that I was doing the 180 before this mess and that is what caused the problem.


You are exactly right. I think the plan the two of you devised is a good one. I will encourage you, if not admonish, not to be too eager or aggressive in enforcing the planned schedule of get togethers with her. She said she needs time, and she truly does need time, as I explained to other member in my link. You will need to learn patience although I realize not knowing is nerve wrecking. The time she needs is not for you to dictate. 

I would hope you do have a time frame in your head. Just don't try to dictate that or be "strict" with your wife. She is not your child to control, and I suspect she is pretty fed up with you trying to. You do, however, have to make your own decisions. If in your head, your own deadline to give her is 6 months (as you mentioned), then keep it to yourself as your own time frame. If at the expiration of that time limit your wife is still not ready to make a decision, then do what you must for yourself. No one can expect you will hang in the limbo balance forever. Make your own decision, but don't try to make hers, and don't try to control her and her feelings.



Jacksonp said:


> I see what your saying techgirl. If I get one more chance I'm going to make sure my needs are met also. The communication problem needs to be fixed and there will need to be more affection in this marriage or it will not work. I already told her this. Last week we had such a great week we were talking about stuff we never talk about and doing things with a smile. I felt happy and thought she was to. I asked her about that and she said she felt the same way but it was so weird that we spend the 2 weeks before that not talking and than last week we were actually having a good time. I believe that was the true 180 rule with some hiccups. She is probably thinking the same way you are. I'm going to make vow not to say anything about this marriage until she says something to me about. I'm going to buy some books and learn more and I'm going to quit being so hard on myself. I know what the problems were and what caused them. She is going to need to show me also what went wrong and prove to me that she is going to put effort in this marriage. I believe once I see this we will be back together or not. 6 months is the deadline.


That is a very healthy attitude. You need to know you also have worth and value in the marriage. Please don't make any demands on her though. Just remember, she wants a separation to iron out her thoughts and feelings. She doesn't need and won't appreciate you demanding anything from her. As time goes on and the more time you spend together, you will be able to judge the temperature as cold, luke warm, or getting hot. Choose wisely the time to begin discussing each other's expectations. 





Jacksonp said:


> Well I was going to sign a 6 month lease today, but of course the manager said I have to wait till tomorrow. I just want to get this started already. J'Accused it don't bother me leaving the house. What bothers me that I wont be with my wife. The unknown of this marriage status is killing me. I need to find a way to deal with this. That makes me feel half way normal. As long as I'm in the house and I see her everyday I keep thinking about everything and I'm tired rehashing this stuff over and over again in my head. No matter what I do I keep thinking about everything. The sad thing is a feel better now because I'm mad at this situation now. I realize there in nothing I can do to stop this separation. I don't understand what good it can do. I know I'm thinking selfishly, but I think it's probability because I don't see a light at the end a the tunnel.


I can see not knowing is driving you nuts. Try not to be angry, not if you want your marriage. Your wife needs you to understand and be patient right now, so please try for both your sakes. Anger really won't help you at all, and that's what the 180 is for if applied properly and for the right reasons. Obviously, it won't help matters to make her feel alienated like you don't give a darn, so don't do that. Plus, she's already expressed that's not what she wants. But, taking care of yourself, having a healthy attitude, and forming other interests to occupy your mind and your time will do you a lot of good. It will help you mentally prepare yourself for whatever happens. I also suggest counseling. It could do you a world of good and also help your wife to see the effort you're making. Do it for yourself though.


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## Jacksonp

River Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post. I actually did read your post before you added the link here. Between you and what my wife told me I finally have a better understanding why she needs the break. What was really upsetting me is I was more focused and what I wanted and I really wasn't seeing what she is feeling. That is the selfishness she said that I have been showing in the marriage. I really didn't understand this until I finally figured out what she was saying. The only thing I was thinking is she is through with me and this marriage. I bought the book his needs and her needs which I may say is a very good book. I'm only a quarter way though it, but I'm learning alot from it.


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## iheartlife

Jacksonp said:


> I bought the book his needs and her needs which I may say is a very good book. I'm only a quarter way though it, but I'm learning alot from it.


It is one awesome book.


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## Jacksonp

I wanted to say I believe there is a great chance that I'm going to be able to save my marriage. I know there is still a long road to climb, but I'm seeing alot of progress. Last night my wife started sleeping in the same bed as me, instead of sleeping in the basement. She has been sleeping there now for 3 weeks and last night when we when to Menard's just to grab something and we staying there for 2 hours until it closed. Just looking at stuff and talking about what we wanted. It seemed like she really wanted to be with me, because she hates that store. It was funny I joked and said well this has been fun It's a Saturday Night and we closed down the Menards's store and she looked at me and smiled. Than we had ice cream which I must say we really didn't need. I also noticed that she has been saying we instead of I in the last 2 days. I truly believe it's because of the way I have been acting in the last week in a half that has caused this change. The nice thing is that the changes I have made are making me feel better also. I really haven't been on the internet except for this forum in the last 3 weeks I have been getting alot of stuff done around the house and in the last week in a half spending alot of time with my wife. I'm 3 quarters through the book His Needs and Her Needs and I must say that book is dead on. Every person before they get married should read this book. I was doing some of the things in the book before I read it, but now I can see why her feeling are starting to change. The long talks that we have been have and the time we have been spending together is filling her love bank for me. I also see why alot of people are talking about affairs because if the needs she has are not being fulfilled she would find them somewhere else. I believe I caught this just in time before something started. I wanted to say thank you for everyone's comments on this post it has helped me alot and thanks for recommending the book His Needs Her Needs to me. I have a great understanding of what will keep this marriage together now. Thank You


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## Avesa

If you have suspicion ask her. If you're going to be living separately, you need rules and you both need to follow them. Your wife is unhappy and you need to find out why before you decide who moves out. You don't have to be the one who moves out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

I'm glad the book is working its wonders on you. Can't beat the psychology in it. The next step is to print out the Love Buster questionnaire (from marriagebuilders.com - but avoid their forums). Both of you should fill them out and then swap. Find out what exactly you do to LB her and spend the next 2 or 3 months changing your habits to eliminate those LBs from your habits. It will have an immense effect.


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## iheartlife

Jacksonp said:


> I wanted to say I believe there is a great chance that I'm going to be able to save my marriage. I know there is still a long road to climb, but I'm seeing alot of progress. Last night my wife started sleeping in the same bed as me, instead of sleeping in the basement. She has been sleeping there now for 3 weeks and last night when we when to Menard's just to grab something and we staying there for 2 hours until it closed. Just looking at stuff and talking about what we wanted. It seemed like she really wanted to be with me, because she hates that store. It was funny I joked and said well this has been fun It's a Saturday Night and we closed down the Menards's store and she looked at me and smiled. Than we had ice cream which I must say we really didn't need. I also noticed that she has been saying we instead of I in the last 2 days. I truly believe it's because of the way I have been acting in the last week in a half that has caused this change. The nice thing is that the changes I have made are making me feel better also. I really haven't been on the internet except for this forum in the last 3 weeks I have been getting alot of stuff done around the house and in the last week in a half spending alot of time with my wife. I'm 3 quarters through the book His Needs and Her Needs and I must say that book is dead on. Every person before they get married should read this book. I was doing some of the things in the book before I read it, but now I can see why her feeling are starting to change. The long talks that we have been have and the time we have been spending together is filling her love bank for me. I also see why alot of people are talking about affairs because if the needs she has are not being fulfilled she would find them somewhere else. I believe I caught this just in time before something started. I wanted to say thank you for everyone's comments on this post it has helped me alot and thanks for recommending the book His Needs Her Needs to me. I have a great understanding of what will keep this marriage together now. Thank You


Now you know what to buy the young couples in your lives as wedding gifts! So glad to hear this.


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## River1977

iheartlife said:


> Now you know what to buy the young couples in your lives as wedding gifts! So glad to hear this.


Great idea!

JacksonP, you sound on such an enlightened high. This is truly wonderful, especially for you. Please believe that I don't mean to sound like a downer, but I don't want you disappointed. You have plans to move out, so I think you still should unless wifey asks you not to go. What I'm saying is it won't be fair to you to think things are going so well only to be surprised and hurt if you learn she still wants the separation. It is very possible she will still want time apart for the same reasons that I explained before and in the other thread that I linked. No doubt she is very much enjoying the changes in you, but she's still hurting and still, she needs time to gather herself back together. Please keep working on yourself for yourself and by all means, remain optimistic.


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## Jacksonp

Yes River, I know that the separation is going to happen no matter what. Thanks for the post though, because we talked again tonight and she said she don't have an answer if we are going to get back together or not. She said she knows I'm trying hard to make changes for our relationship, but she don't what the future holds. She said she's not thinking about it at all. She said she needs to work on all of stuff for herself. She also said she made the hard decision to sleep in the same bed again so I wasn't hurt about it til I left. I feel I'm at step one again I feel that all the things I did was really for nothing. I feel so selfish saying that. Maybe I should just give up on this and find somebody else that will appreciate what I have learned, because it make no sense to me that somebody that you been with for 20 years will not make any effort to try to keep their marriage. When she tells me that that she's not even thinking about trying to get back together tells me that she doesn't want it.


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## Jacksonp

Man it makes me upset that you think what your doing is working and you find out it didn't do anything at all. I also feel like a complete fool.


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## bandit.45

So she lets you have this nice romantic evening together, gets your hopes up, then she tears it all down a couple hours later?

Don't you see something a bit sadistic and heartless in that? Or is she just that dense? 

I think she's setting you up for an a*skicking brother. You better steel yourself for what happens after you move out.


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## The lost Husband

Be carful man. My wife would offer me sex at times. Not quite sure why as I look back on it. 
Start working on you. For the sake of both of you. Don't put all your attention on her. Be happy for you. 
Stop talking about your relationship with her. 
Do stuff you use to do when you first started. 
She may need to be recharged by you.


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## Jacksonp

I think I finally got what I was looking for and know what my wife is thinking about all this and this is what I was thinking the whole time. She is scared to let me in her life again because she don't want to be hurt by me anymore. She isn't going to tell me things I want to hear even though she may want this to work just as bad as I do. I just wish she knew that I get it now. I really get it. I'm at the point when I'm going to giving everything I have to make this marriage work. I'm in the place where I'm going to delicate my life to this marriage. I'm going to make sure that I look at everything I do and make sure it is the right thing to do. Not that it's going to benefit me but us.


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## turnera

Jacksonp said:


> She said she knows I'm trying hard to make changes for our relationship, but she don't what the future holds. She said she's not thinking about it at all. She said she needs to work on all of stuff for herself.


Please understand that this is SO VERY common in women. They grow up dreaming about this marriage, this wedding, this fairy tale life, often without spending any time getting to know themselves - they are only who this 'wife' is supposed to be. They wed. Get married. Get on with life. And start to realize that all the stuff they dreamed of is just superficial. And who are they, really, apart from the girl who got married? So, as they get older, they start to question everything and wonder who they would have become if they hadn't spent their lives centered on marriage. They often really DO have to work on stuff for themselves.

Look, you are in no rush. You don't have to decide anything. This is a great wakeup call. Together, apart, it makes no difference; both of you are at an age where you need to start the second phase of learning (after childhood), that adult phase where you really get a handle on life, who you are, what you're meant to be and do, and how you're gonna do it. Will you do it together? Maybe, maybe not. But if you do, you'll get to that place as much more enlightened people, as FRIENDS who know each other better, respect each other, and don't take each other for granted. After all, isn't that what HNHN is all about?


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## Jacksonp

I'm trying to understand and I really don't want to be insensitive to her about my feeling, but if I deal with my feelings with her around why can't she with me around. Your right also about not having to decide anything, I have the harder part of this mess. The unknown is killing me and it shouldn't be unknown. I mean to me it should be easy I want to be with him or not. There shouldn't be any confusion in this. I'm here now just say I want to be with you til you prove to me I can't change. You should see her now it like light and day. I don't think I ever seen her happier. She around me all the time now. It's not like she is going all over the place with out me and happy. This weekend I think we here apart maybe 5 hours. For someone that don't want you around this doesn't make any sense, but I guess maybe it me not making any sense she is here with me now. I guess when you ask someone if the want to be with you and say I don't know it just doesn't feel right. I try my hardest not to think about this, but I can't help it.


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## bandit.45

Maybe it's her self-justifying way of saying goodbye to you. 

Prepare for the end of your marriage friend.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jacksonp

Bandit, I must say your like my Grim Reaper. Thanks for posting though because I have to think about what you say also. Sorry but that's a stupid way of saying goodbye.


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## bandit.45

No I'm just grim. I have your best interests at heart. I'm tired of seeing good people steamrolled over by moronic, selfish spouses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jacksonp

Well at least somebody does and I thank you for that. Sometimes I feel like I been hit by a train and made it through it.


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## bandit.45

Well remember that feeling....because I think it will be coming back to visit you again.

See...there I go again!


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## Jacksonp

Well, whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger right


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## turnera

Also remember that women are like cats, men are like dogs. If a woman is spooked, it can take her a long time to feel safe again. Longer process, in other words. So if there's something that she's afraid will happen again, something about you she doesn't like, she's holding out on caring again to make sure it doesn't just resurface.


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## iheartlife

Jacksonp said:


> I'm trying to understand and I really don't want to be insensitive to her about my feeling, but if I deal with my feelings with her around why can't she with me around. Your right also about not having to decide anything, I have the harder part of this mess. The unknown is killing me and it shouldn't be unknown. I mean to me it should be easy I want to be with him or not. There shouldn't be any confusion in this. I'm here now just say I want to be with you til you prove to me I can't change. You should see her now it like light and day. I don't think I ever seen her happier. She around me all the time now. It's not like she is going all over the place with out me and happy. This weekend I think we here apart maybe 5 hours. For someone that don't want you around this doesn't make any sense, but I guess maybe it me not making any sense she is here with me now. I guess when you ask someone if the want to be with you and say I don't know it just doesn't feel right. I try my hardest not to think about this, but I can't help it.


This is where you have to stop thinking about the future and worrying about whether or not she is going to stay. I know that sounds like a ridiculous thing to ask. But the truth is, she can step off a curb and get hit by a bus today.

Stop living in the future. LIVE FOR THE NEXT 15 MINUTES. Live for the next minute, but maybe that's asking too much. Concentrate on the NOW. Right NOW you are doing X, whatever X is, that you are supposed to be doing. Whether it's your job or it's taking out the garbage or eating your lunch. Pull your focus with all your might off of how your wife is reacting moment by moment and concentrate on the only thing in your control, which is living your best life.

Are you sitting on your butt too much--or do you exercise? Exercise is something that so many people suffering from bad marriages take up and discover is a godsend. It is good for you in every way and it passes the time. Again, while exercising you're not dwelling on the past or the future. You're concentrating on your breathing and your muscles and the sweat. This moment.

When you eat your food, take a bite and savor it. You will find that if you're eating pre-packaged or junk food that it actually doesn't taste that great.

And so on. Eating healthy, watching less tv, stop or reduce smoking--all of these things will make you feel better about yourself. As you take on a project in the house that you should have done long ago, pour your full mental energy into that project. Then sit back and let the boost of accomplishment lift you, and then go find another thing to do.

Self-pity, moping, lethargy, following someone around asking them what they're thinking right now--these are unattractive to the nth degree.

Have you read MMSL and NMMNG yet?

Also, sorry I can't recall from your thread--have you visited your doctor for a presciption for anti-depressants? They won't make you happy but they will give you your brain back so you can make solid choices.


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## allthegoodnamesaregone

I agree with Bandit. Sorry to say, but reading this same script over and over is depressing. Sure it's good to amp up and try and set things right, but to do it without verifying an EA or PA is going to make the fall that much harder. When they get this point they could lie to you face and you'd never know it. It's very. very, very seldom and Om is not involved in one way or another, please take the time to check this out BEFORE you move, after you do you wont' be able to.


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## Jacksonp

Thanks for the post iheartlife. This was very good information. Trust me I have tried living every 15 minutes instead of just wondering. It's very hard to do. I am getting there though. I'm seeing changes in my wife and the things she says don't feel as cold as couple weeks before. I'm doing alot of deep soul searching to figure where things when wrong. The nice thing is I see what alot of the problems were. The nice thing also I don't only see that it was only my fault we got this way. I do feel alot of guilt and sadness because my wife has been hurting all this time, I'm also upset that she didn't say anything about it also, but I understand why she didn't. She even said the other day she sees if she would of said something along time ago she believes this problem would have been fixed. That tells me she is seeing alot of my changes and is happy with them. You are so right about the 15 minute thing though because I see alot of changes in her also. She makes a point to tell me wheres she at and where she going to be. She use to stay up for like a hour after I went to bed, but now she goes to bed when I do and we hold each other for about 15 minute before we go to bed. She talks to me all the time about all kinds of stuff. She never did that before. Before when I talked about how I felt she never said anything unless I asked her to answer the question, now she is opening up and telling me more personal stuff. Now she says it's just going to take time. I'm just so concentrated on her telling me everything is going to be alright between us that I was missing these things. I have so many more emotions now. My sex drive is going through the roof and the sad thing it's a felling I really never had before. It not just a horny thing 5, 10 minutes and it over. It's very intense. I believe I am realizing that I'm not just saying I love her and truly do love her. I know that sound stupid but it's a feeling I never felt before. I was going to see a doctor, but I truly am feeling better now. I have my ups and downs, but more I see and hear things from my wife I'm feeling better and better.


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## Jacksonp

oh I don't know what these are Have you read MMSL and NMMNG yet?

I have now read the whole book of His Needs Her Needs. Damn that's a good book. I wish I would of read that 21 years ago. I think just the understand of what he said made me a better person.


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## turnera

Most women will NOT say anything. Why? A ton of reasons, upbringing, aspirations, male domination...tons of reasons. It's why most women leave a marriage once the kids are gone - their duty is done so they can now go find happiness.

Are you asking her about how she's felt all these years?


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## Jacksonp

turnera I understand what your saying and I truly believe that's what going on.


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## turnera

Yes, HNHN is amazing. You can do more with this book by printing out Harley's Love Buster's questionnaire and the two of you filling it out. Learn how you harm your wife and spend the next few months elliminating those bad habits. She can't love you until you do.


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## Jacksonp

Yes I have, but she doesn't say much except she has been just pushing her hurt feeling down and building her wall up. She said she just feels numb about our marriage.


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## Jacksonp

She's coming out of her shell now though like I said in my last post I'm feeling more and more at ease with us. It's struggle though there seems like there is so much that I don't know. After reading this book I should have already known this stuff. In alot of ways i feel stupid. but I'm getting smarter as each day passed.


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## allthegoodnamesaregone

turnera said:


> Most women will NOT say anything. Why? A ton of reasons, upbringing, aspirations, male domination...tons of reasons. It's why most women leave a marriage once the kids are gone - their duty is done so they can now go find happiness.
> 
> Are you asking her about how she's felt all these years?


With all due respect, women who do as you suggest tend to have borderline personality disorders. It comes up here over and over again that the wife has all of these issues and none of it her fault? It also never seems to be a big enough problem to mention these issues over 10-20-30 years, that is until there is another man in the picture. This argument does not hold water.

It's more than likely the wife is in the beginning stages of a MLC, and she's going to bounce back and forth before she finally runs. I wish the poster the best, but well know how this ends...


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## Jacksonp

I think my wife believe some of this is her fault she just don't want to admit it. She really has done so much for me in the years I really don't care if she admits anything though. Everyone has their issues and I believe when she really knows I'm serious about changing my life she will start looking at some of the issues she has. Like i said I don't care if she says anything at all about. I really don't want this to turn out to be a blame game, if it does I would take the heat so we can move past it. I told her my needs and feelings. It's up to her to decide if she wants to change herself or not. I'm going to really try to just live day by day and see what happens.


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## bandit.45

Heres a hypothetical:

Say you get through this moronoc six month sh*t test she puts you through, she hasn't cheated as far as you know, and at the end she comes back and says she wants to get back together...

Well, maybe that time YOU will have grown and learned things about yourself, and come to the realization that you like being on your own and being your own man. 

What then. Will you go back?


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## Jacksonp

Good question Bandit, I think I would. When I tried to put myself in her shoe's and asked myself if the tables were turned and somebody said they loved me and wanted a second chance and I seen a incredible change for the better. There was no way I could turn them down. It really depends on seeing that the person really loves you. I don't want to be with someone that doesn't love me, so If I had to wait 6 months I better see that or I would have to move on. The answer would be no if there was no contact for 6 months because that would show she doesn't give a crap.


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## bandit.45

Have you and her sat down and made a list of boundaries both of you will adhere to while on this separation mumbo jumbo? 

If you haven't you need to. A list of specifics, that both of you agree on and sign. At the top of the list will be "I will not date other people or committ adultery for the next six months."

Make the list and both of you sign it. It will help you during the divorce.


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## allthegoodnamesaregone

I have big problems with one party doing all the work, it never ends well. The wife generally just keeps moving the goal posts to ever impossible goals and then leaves anyway "because I don't trust these changes you've made will stick" or "It's too late" > Strongly suggest you "Trust, but verify that there is no OM, and not by just asking her.


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## Jacksonp

Yes I understand what your saying about one person doing all the work, but just because shes not saying anything doesn't me she isn't working on anything. I have seen alot of changes in her lately. The problem with this marriage is we don't know how to be married. The main issue are communication which we are working on because we are talking all the time and affection which is getting better everyday. 
It helps when you figure out the problems and figure out a way to deal with them. Honestly you have to be willing to dedicate your self to the marriage and not just live in the same house and don't do anything. People say it is work, but I'm not feeling that way. It's just a way of life that you need to adapt too and enjoy. If you don't enjoy it I don't believe the marriage can work. 
Bandit no I haven't I just said we can't see other people, but really at this point I don't think we will separate. We will see yet I'm not going to push the subject now. I have 2 weeks yet to see whats going to happen. If I feel we are still going to do this I will do what you have said.


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## turnera

allthegoodnamesaregone said:


> With all due respect, women who do as you suggest tend to have borderline personality disorders.


With all due respect, I have NO personality disorders, and I just described myself.


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## allthegoodnamesaregone

turnera said:


> With all due respect, I have NO personality disorders, and I just described myself.


Then I suggest you look it up, because avoidance of the level you mention are part and parcel of BPD. It's not normal to bottle up resentment for years on end and not say anything about it. You rob your spouse the option of finding someone who cares enough about their marriage to be genuine about it than just sticking around for a safe haven until better options come along. 

"Staying for the children" is a cop out, self centered and women need to be called on it. If you are not happy it's up to you to do something about it before it gets to that point. As far as I'm concerned a woman who does this has already ended her marriage in the most evil way, by secretly loathing the man she married for years in exchange for security.


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## This is me

turnera said:


> Most women will NOT say anything. Why? A ton of reasons, upbringing, aspirations, male domination...tons of reasons. It's why most women leave a marriage once the kids are gone - their duty is done so they can now go find happiness.
> 
> Are you asking her about how she's felt all these years?


"Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be."
Abraham Lincoln


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## This is me

Before my Wife walked away, she held it all in and built up resentment. Most guys have no clue this is going on as described in the Walk Away Wife Syndrome. As much as the guy gets blamed, he can not responsible if he is kept in the dark. With most MLC's the first person who gets blamed for unhappiness is the spouse. 

It takes to to tango in getting it right and a private dancer is not helping the team.


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## turnera

What Every Husband Should Know About His Wife | Marriage Missions International


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## allthegoodnamesaregone

turnera said:


> What Every Husband Should Know About His Wife | Marriage Missions International


More Crap-It works both ways, if a woman can't see that a man giving up his single life, working, having children and all the things he has to do in a marriage is not cherishing,respecting and providing security for her she has some growing up to do. 

Even if a man did all that article claims, she'd eventually look at him as a doormat and dump him for some old BF on facebook or a guy at work. We've seen it here time and time again if you need proof I know of a forum with 17,000 posts about this issue.


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## turnera

I assume you've got a good success rate with your attitude?


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## allthegoodnamesaregone

turnera said:


> I assume you've got a good success rate with your attitude?



Generally when you get that "I'm not happy, my needs are not being met" speech they've already met someone else. My wife could not come up with one single reason for wanting to end our marriage other than she "Wasn't Happy", even though we talked everyday about everything and nothing every came up as an issue.

I did everything recommended in your link for 24 years. I found the evidence of the OM six months later, she'd been having an EA then PA for six months before she left.

My wife hit 45 and changed so drastically over about 3 months our children don't even recognize her anymore. Both kids live with me full time, she see's them for an hour a week, so you can draw your own conclusions.


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## turnera

allthegoodnamesaregone said:


> Generally when you get that "I'm not happy, my needs are not being met" speech they've already met someone else.


That's not even close to true. A walkaway wife is, by definition, someone who's put 15-20 years into a marriage, realized it was one-sided (as she is the one who usually sees that everyone else is taken care of) and, once the kids are grown, figures she might as well be alone as be with someone who takes her for granted.


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## allthegoodnamesaregone

turnera said:


> That's not even close to true. A walkaway wife is, by definition, someone who's put 15-20 years into a marriage, realized it was one-sided (as she is the one who usually sees that everyone else is taken care of) and, once the kids are grown, figures she might as well be alone as be with someone who takes her for granted.


That's what the DB site claims the WAW see's it, they don't claim that's what's actually is gone on. Even on the DB site there are hundreds of posts from men who say their WAW's were not stay at home mom's, had careers and there was nothing more than the average family lifestyle issues going on. 

In my case I had a home office and it was me doing the lions share of the house work and running the kids about. I'm an early riser so I cooked breakfast, packed the kids lunches and made coffee everyday. My wife worked four days a week and only cooked on weekends, did the weekly shopping ( with me) and did her own "delicates" laundry. For years we went out for coffee just her and I after work and talked about whatever was going on and planned our activities. There was not one thing in our marriage she did not have a say in, we planned everything together and I can count the number of times we disagreed on any issue on one hand.

Mine was certainly not taken for granted, ignored or mistreated. What's she and many others her age are dealing with is a mid life crisis, the marriage has very little to do with it.


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## bandit.45

allthegoodnamesaregone said:


> .Mine was certainly not taken for granted, ignored or mistreated. What's she and many others her age are dealing with is a mid life crisis, the marriage has very little to do with it.


Same here.

I was a good husband to my wife, despite the fact that she betrayed me two years into the marriage. I was never needy, took care of her needs, did my 50% of the housework and *all* the maintenence, tried to be romantic and loving without spoiling her, put up with her half-criminal family and batsh*t crazy mom. For the last fifteen years she had few complaints, and yet none of it was enough.

She hit 40 y.o. and that's when things started changing. It wasn't anything I could describe or nail down.... she just had a different vibe about her. I should have been on my guard but I wasn't.

Well, here I am....


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## allthegoodnamesaregone

bandit.45 said:


> Same here.
> 
> I was a good husband to my wife, despite the fact that she betrayed me two years into the marriage. I was never needy, took care of her needs, did my 50% of the housework and *all* the maintenence, tried to be romantic and loving without spoiling her, put up with her half-criminal family and batsh*t crazy mom. For the last fifteen years she had few complaints, and yet none of it was enough.
> 
> She hit 40 y.o. and that's when things started changing. It wasn't anything I could describe or nail down.... she just had a different vibe about her. I should have been on my guard but I wasn't.
> 
> Well, here I am....


It's an epidemic Bandit, I can't count the number of guys who have told me similar stories. And the guys these W's ran off with for the most part were scum. Mine hooked up with some dweeb she met playing a video game who has a room mate to help pay the bills!


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## allthegoodnamesaregone

bandit.45 said:


> F*CK THOSE B!TCHES!!!!


I'm getting close to a year after BD and these last couple of days have been really good, it's like I finally don't care anymore. It's been a rough road, but now I feel a sense of freedom. I think I'm getting to that acceptance phase. I can see what others meant now when they said, "In a year or so and she really wants to R, even begs for it you probably won't want to or even care anymore"


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## Jacksonp

My wife has asked me a couple times in the last to days if the changes that I'm working on is only to get back together with her or changes that I really want to do. What can I do to make her see that I really have seen the light and really want to work my issues for the greater good of our relationship. I want to remove the doubt in her head and make her believe that I understand that we can't live the way we were before. I told her last night that I think me moving out is a bad idea because we are giving ourselves a chance to move further apart than closer together and that went she brought this up again. I can see questioning it once, but twice she must really be thinking about it.


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## turnera

Give her a good discussion about what you've learned. You don't have to tell her where you learned it. Show her that you are looking up ways to improve and WHY.


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## allthegoodnamesaregone

Jacksonp, 

This seems to be part of the script, you go and work on all the trouble spots they do mention, then they question your ability to keep it up, move the goal posts or eventually say "it's too little , too late".

In a lot of cases it almost seems like they've already made up their mind and hope you can't change. It makes it easier for them to justify ending the marriage than if you really show everyone you are determined to work on the marriage.


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## turnera

Or....she really does want to be with you but needs the changes in you. Not every woman is out to ditch her husband.


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## allthegoodnamesaregone

turnera said:


> Or....she really does want to be with you but needs the changes in you. Not every woman is out to ditch her husband.


When they get to this point they've been thinking hard about it and have in their mind already checked out. Once that "love" thing goes it's often game over.


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## turnera

allthegoodnamesaregone said:


> When they get to this point they've been thinking hard about it and *MAY* have in their mind already checked out. Once that "love" thing goes it's often game over.


Again, not all women are like your wife.


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## allthegoodnamesaregone

turnera said:


> Again, not all women are like your wife.


No, but there is a pattern and script to this that's readily apparent. You see it repeated thousands of times on these marriage forums. 

-The wife becomes distant 

-Starts making excuses for not doing things with you 

-Does not want to talk about it 

-Become secretive, attached to social media/phone 

-Starts dressing and acting more provocatively

-Changes in her taste in reading and music 

Then comes the "I need space" , "My feelings have gone for you" etc. Later you find out the truth of an EA/PA, in retrospect you realize the first time you noticed changes in your wife coincide with the EA.

My point is I would not waste any time trying to engage the wife until all possibility of an affair have been eliminated. If there is no hint of an affair by all means do what needs to be done.

If there is even an EA drop the hammer, the wife should be told you will not be in a marriage with three people and for her to make a choice. It's the only way of regaining the wife's respect back.


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## iheartlife

I have posted many times in many threads about EAs. My husband was in a long-term EA. Loooong term. We are now recommitted and reconciling.

While it's true that you can't fix a marriage with 3 people in it, jacksonp has decided to try to do the fixing this way. If indeed his wife is in an affair, it will become apparent soon enough. As someone who wasted YEARS in the dark, I know a thing or two about being completely fooled and trying to fix a marriage with 3 people in it. turnera is certainly no novice at how EAs work, either, and is more than capable of delivering a 2x4 where one is called for.

So for now, jacksonp, my response to your update is:

Clearly, you are making some progress. your wife is noticing. That is GOOD. It's certainly better than where you were.

She is not going to buy into the idea of the changed you over night.

Here is the hard truth I had to swallow: my marriage took YEARS to become vulnerable. A few months is like a drop in the bucket where the damage has been done. Time is the ultimate way to prove that changes are effective and more or less 'permanent.'

It hurts to have your wife believe that you are doing it just to 'get her to stay.' That is why it's essential that a significant part of each day consists in stuff that is improving YOU as a person. Stuff that you will need whether she is there or not. If you work, that means being an excellent employee. Exercising, volunteering, cleaning up your own mess and helping out around the house, these are things that good people do to improve themselves. They make you a happier person, a more interesting person, a more attractive person. But once again, they have to be for YOU or they will not make a dent on you. They will not truly change you from the inside out.

Have you gone to get a haircut lately? Are you staying well-groomed? Have you bought yourself a new shirt or two or a new pair of shoes? These are small things that give you an ego boost and make you feel better about yourself. Exercising, losing weight, eating healthy, these do too. Again, all stuff you need for the long haul whether she goes *poof* or not.

I bet you've spent a lot of time in recent days working hard at stuff that is pleasing to her. If that's true, time to balance it out with _healthy_ "me-focused" activities. You've got to get the right mix. It's a combination of the advice NMMNG, MMSL, HN/HN, LB, etc.


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## Jacksonp

Thank iheartlife, This is the kind of information I was looking for, I try to spend sometime with myself, but it just don't feel right. I really don't have any ambition to do it. I think the reason why is now I'm so stuck on when I'm doing stuff myself she will think I'm falling into old habits. This is just a guess I really don't know why. At this point I'm really sick of over thinking everything. I have to get into a place and trust my gut. There have been great improvements between the both of us lately. We went to the baseball ball game last night and it was great. The funny thing is we both really don't like baseball that much and we just had a great night together. The physical part of out relationship is better than ever. We are hugging each other and holding hands alot the last few days, which we really never done much in our whole marriage. She is starting to talk to me more about her feelings, beside just say she don't feel anything. Don't get me wrong there is alot more built up that she doesn't say anything about, but she is working on it. She told me yesterday that she has been happy the last few days and I'm really happy with us getting along. I'm really starting to think now that we are going to work this out. Like she and others on this forum have said it's just going to take time. 

Iheartlife and Yes I got a haircut and have a few new cloths and I'm well groomed. But that is mainly because of my job. Talking about my job. I have to talk to people on the phone everyday fixing or answering whatever questions people have. The last 2 weeks I have been getting alot of complements from people I talk too. I really don't feel that I have changed anything at work, but I guess I must be changing things that I'm not really aware of also. That is scary lol. 

Back to my marriage though. 2 Things that I have been really noticing lately is one my sexually feelings for my wife are even stronger now than when we first met. I'm sure this is because I can't stop thinking about her all day and two I really miss her when she not around me. I guess that's because when she is there I'm not dwelling on our relationship. The things that I do now today are becoming more natural I don't really think about what I need to do all the time like I was doing about a week ago. I think this is because she is really showing me signs that were together now and I believe she knows I'm not just talking crap.


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## Almostrecovered

The sexual feelings are from the need to reclaim her, look at hysterical bonding part in the newbie link


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## turnera

You need to sign up for some yoga classes, bro.


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## iheartlife

Jacksonp said:


> The things that I do now today are becoming more natural I don't really think about what I need to do all the time like I was doing about a week ago. I think this is because she is really showing me signs that were together now and I believe she knows I'm not just talking crap.


This the direction you want to be headed in--where it starts to feel natural and not forced. Human beings have to do a new thing a certain period of time to make it a habit. I don't believe in the magical 21 days (there's this idea that if you do something every day for 3 weeks it will become a habit) but doing it over and over certainly internalizes it. You probably have various bad habits--if you consciously replace them with good ones, the good ones take over.

If your problem before was being self-preoccupied, and you had fun at the baseball game, maybe another thing to do is take up a hobby that's mutually enjoyable. It could be complicated and cost money like bowling or ball room dancing, or it could be more simple and a ritual like an evening walk after dinner. You see how doing something like the baseball game did wonders--couples strugging in relationships really need to just forget the troubles for a while and have some fun, too.

It's great that people via work are noticing a difference, who knows what they perceive but no, it's not a coincidence


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## River1977

You did not work on your marriage. I know you did not because I know you have/had no idea the work that needed to be done. Some of you still don't and still don't care, especially anyone calling women F'ing Bitc*es and saying an article that offers help is a bunch of bullcrap. I can understand the anger, but it is not to be understood anyone, man or woman, who refuses to accept their shortcomings, their own involvement, and even the possibility that they contributed to the failure of their marriage. That only tells me just how short they came, just how involved they were not, and that they surely contributed enough for the marriage to fail. I commend any man who truly did make an effort but again, most men don't know the efforts to make. It's really something to me that the same mistakes are made in most marriages.

You guys keep on repeating you didn't know how bad it was, were in the dark, and she never complained. But, you did know. You knew because women ALWAYS tell you. We ALWAYS complain, ask, beg, and so on. We do/say whatever we can to make you understand. A good example I doubt any one of you can truly and honestly deny (without it being a necessity for you to prove me wrong) is the time or the NUMBER of times she said you did something, and you told her you didn't........the time or the NUMBER of times she asked "why didn't you tell me (discuss with me) before making that decision", and you told her "I didn't think about asking you"........the time or NUMBER of times she complained that you don't spend time with her or with the family, and you told her to stop trying to control you........the time or NUMBER of times she complained about you coming home and doing nothing but on the computer or in front of the TV, and you told her you will do whatever you want to do.......the time or NUMBER of times she complained about how she felt about something you did or said, and you told her you didn't make her feel that way. Yes, you actually told her you did not make her feel the way she said you made her feel. That is probably the number one scenario all by itself because it happens way too often. I could go on with the examples, but maybe one of you - one somebody at least - gets the message that women always let their husbands know, while you're all busy exclaiming from the rooftops that you had no idea.

The OP of this thread is another very good example. He completely skated over his own doing, his own contribution, or any possibility that he had anything to do with his wife's decision to separate - short of not washing the dishes. He denied, minimized, and ignored, just like he did to his wife over the course of their marriage. He, and most of the other men want to constantly protest about how wrong it is that she never said anything before and just popped up out of nowhere wanting a separation or divorce. She did, I assure you. The only thing she did not say before is that she wants a separation or a divorce. Now that she said those final words, you want to claim clueless and that she blindsided you. No she did not. She told you all the long. She complained all the long, but you ignored her utterly and completely. You called her a nag while you did nothing she asked, paid no attention to her words, and minimized her feelings.......without even one thought or even one word to the logical fact that had you listened to her; had you done what she asked; had you not ignored her, there would be nothing for her to nag about. So what was the sense of MAKING your wife nag? It made sense to you at the time to simply ignore her. It made sense to you at the time to prevent any possibility that you might change for her and become the husband she needed you to be. It made sense to you at the time to make sure there was no possiblity she might think she could tell you what to do. But, you get down to D day - when she's had enough of you and finally fed up - and you cry foul, like you are the injured party and she's doing you some terrible injustice. 

And, by the way, no one, man nor woman, should be so self righteous as to proclaim "she was never mistreated." That is not for you to say. Only she can make that assertion. Denial is a river, right? Any man who said that, and all those who "liked" the statements are the ones who, even long after their own divorce, still continue minimizing their woman's feelings, saying she only wanted separation to pursue an affair, and claiming to be have been the perfect husband who had no clue she was unhappy. 

And, speaking of affairs, there is almost always a reason, for both men and women. 

1. If a person's needs are not being met; if a person is mistreated; if a person's feelings, expressions, and opinions are ignored, they are more vulnerable to having an affair. 

2. Unless you married someone with a mental/behavioral disorder, women are much less likely to become involved in an EA if she is happy at home. A woman doesn't need emotional attention and support from more than one man at a time (ahem hint hint). 

3. Unless you married a sl*t, women are less likely to become involved in a PA. Women are not normally like men in needing sexual scores and conquests. If her man is good and considerate in bed, her man is the only man she wants.

4. Women are emotional creatures who need to feel loved (in the way they need to be loved such as in the article posted that was vehemently rejected) and worthy of love. A woman never wants a separation or divorce because she's having some type of affair. She is having some type of affair because she is not loved and respected at home. Most women don't have the nerve to end the marriage for various reasons, and low self esteem as result of the failed marriage (being mistreated and/or needs being ignored and/or being turned into a nag) is the number one reason she is afraid to leave. The desire for separation or divorce comes after the affair builds her self esteem enough to know she is still worthy of love.

The #1 complaint by women on these boards is how badly he treats her. I don't understand why women take it for so many years, but they do.

The #1 complaint by men on these boards is no sex or not enough sex.

No one bothers to make the connections. Women don't want sex if she is mistreated (disrespected or abused [verbally, emotionally, physically]) in any way. She becomes repulsed and disgusted by the thought of him touching her. Women don't want sex if there is nothing in it (no pleasure) for her. Women don't want sex if she is ignored, if her feelings are minimized, or if she is taken for granted.

No matter how much time spent on these boards for however many years, the same advice is given to the same complaints. The news though is that not every woman who wants separation or divorce is involved in some type of affair and if she is, then there is a reason, if not many reasons. All the books and articles referred to are speaking about those who ARE involved in one. The referenced materials are NOT saying wanting divorce = affair, or not in love with you anymore = affair, or I need time = affair. But people keep on being told that same tired stuff so that no one has to accept any responsibility of their own.


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## bandit.45

River,

I dig where you are coming from. 

Just one question...

What if, as a husband, you do all the things you listed for your woman, and she till wants out? Or cheats on you?

I'd like to know because I listened to my wife and acted on her needs for eighteen years. Now she's out runnning around, partying and f'ing younger guys, has a lover in San Diego, and I'm here in a respitory clinic with Valley Fever. 

What did I do wrong?


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## tacoma

bandit.45 said:


> River,
> 
> I dig where you are coming from.
> 
> Just one question...
> 
> What if, as a husband, you do all the things you listed for your woman, and she till wants out? Or cheats on you?
> 
> I'd like to know because I listened to my wife and acted on her needs for eighteen years. Now she's out runnning around, partying and f'ing younger guys, has a lover in San Diego, and I'm here in a respitory clinic with Valley Fever.
> 
> What did I do wrong?


Wouldn`t worry `bout it Bandit.

Rivers obviously projecting pretty hard.


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## allthegoodnamesaregone

bandit.45 said:


> River,
> 
> I dig where you are coming from.
> 
> Just one question...
> 
> What if, as a husband, you do all the things you listed for your woman, and she till wants out? Or cheats on you?
> 
> I'd like to know because I listened to my wife and acted on her needs for eighteen years. Now she's out runnning around, partying and f'ing younger guys, has a lover in San Diego, and I'm here in a respitory clinic with Valley Fever.
> 
> What did I do wrong?


You didn't. It sounds like River is one of those people who believe that women are all special snowflakes who can do no wrong. Some women at middle age go right off the rails and nothing you could do will make any difference. 

I had similar beliefs to Rivers when I used to hear these stories, I'd think "Man , I wonder what he did to her?". That is until it happened to me and I saw first hand the lying, cheating and manipulation wives are capable of.

My wife when asked could not come up with one reason for her wanting to leave our marriage, only that "she'd been unhappy for a while" and refused to talk any further about it. She also refused to go to MC with me to discuss what ever issues she might have had with me. Six months later it came to light she'd been having an affair at least six months before BD, my daughter being the one that found this out.

So River, if such wives are such paragons of selfless suffering, why are the kids living with me? Why does their mother only see them an hour or so a week and has expressed no interest in their school work for almost a year now? kids who claim their mother has become an "Alien" and is acting like a teenager?

It's called 'Mid life Crisis' River, it's real and a dirty little secret about women approaching middle age that nobody wants to admit to. Some women manage to pass through this phase and stay in their marriages, many go through a hormonal hell and their marriages fall apart. They run away from relatively conflict free marriages to try and "Find themselves" . 

If you don't believe this I suggest you read up a few of the forums for women dealing with peri-menopause. Many have journals women have kept that show them descending into despair. They are full of stories of how love for their husbands just "disappeared", they feel revolted by his touch and how they now feel attracted to other men or want to run away.

When you read these journals from start to end there is a pattern to it, they start out mentioning early symptoms and how supportive their husbands are, how lucky they are to have them etc., but as time goes on they begin to resent just about everything in their marriage. If they were stay at home mom's, they resent not having a career, if they had a career they resent not having spent enough time with the kids. Decisions that were often their desire, the bigger house, the fourth child, moving to the country etc. become "Mistakes they were forced into". 

These very things they wanted required Hubby to work long hours and he get's told he never spent enough time with her. The idea that there was not much time left after working overtime, driving the four kids to activities and mowing a couple acres of grass every weekend does not seem to occur to these women.

So River there you have it, the wives a lot of these guys are talking about indeed did not raise these issues during the marriage, or suggest it was a major issue for them, it all gets turned around leading up to menopause and dumped on them. No husband is perfect, but there is no excuse for infidelity, none.


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## Jacksonp

Thanks for posting River. I want to say I admit that I am mostly to blame for my wife wanting this separation. I have never said I was perfect and I never meant that the only thing I didn't do was help out around the house. I ignored my marriage by sitting in the basement playing on the computer to stay out of peoples way rather than dealing with the issues I had. My wife never and I mean never said anything about it. So please don't say every woman is the same and nag the hell out of their husbands and they just ignore them. When I say I didn't know I mean I didn't know. I knew there was issues in the marriage, but I didn't know that they were that bad. 

I see that peoples needs need to be met for a marriage to work. I've have answered these needs of my wife and I see the changes. Last night I told my wife about this forum I was writing on and what I have learned and asked her Are you going to leave me. This was her response What are you talking about? I said I was scared that I'm going to lose the love on my life and I need to know. She said What are you talking about again and said I just need to time to work on stuff. Than we held each other for the rest of the night.
If you heard and saw this you would know she has no intentions of divorcing me. I am finally relieved. I would have never got to this place if I wouldn't of done what I have been doing in the last few weeks. All men and women need to fulfill the needs of their spouse at all times. It's not work if you truly care for your spouse and your spouse cares for you. It is work if you don't know what your doing.


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## bandit.45

That's good to hear J. 

Keep doing what you're doing.


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## iheartlife

Making generalizations about human behavior can be useful in some circumstances, but we do run into trouble with it eventually.

Making assumptions about people based on gender only gets us so far.

One thing that I think is important to acknowledge is that a certain percentage of cheaters do have mental illnesses / mental explanations for their cheating, and to pretend otherwise is to ignore this reality. We can argue about the percentages (10%? 30%? 50%?) but the truth is there's a measureable number for whom this is true.

I suppose we can say (for argument's sake) that a cheater with BPD, NPD, bi-polar, depression, or asperger's had "needs" that weren't being met. But here is something that's just as true for mentally healthy people as for those less fortunate: some of those "needs" are reasonable needs--_and some of them are not_.

I feel perfectly safe saying this because I will easily own up to at least 80% of the vulnerability of our marriage before my husband had his long-term emotional affair. But he NEVER asked for counseling, NEVER told me his head was under water, NEVER asked for a divorce, NEVER walked out. He just decided to confide in an attractive member of the opposite sex who was struggling with issues in her own marriage (her husband married her for love, she married him for his status and money).

So I can say without a doubt that the way I was as a person, and the way I behaved in my marriage, led inexorably to my husband having an affair. On judgment day God will no doubt look me in the eye and remind me of every argument, every unkindness, every time I chose to vent and whine and complain and every time I didn't show compassion to my husband. 

But you know what God--if there is a God--is not going to say to me? He is not going to say, and you are to blame for your husband violating his marriage vows.

Each of us human beings, we have free will, and each minute of each day we have certain choices we can make about how we behave and how we treat other people. But in the end we make our own choices and the buck stops there. Thank God for that.


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## allthegoodnamesaregone

iheartlife said:


> Making generalizations about human behavior can be useful in some circumstances, but we do run into trouble with it eventually.
> 
> Making assumptions about people based on gender only gets us so far.
> 
> One thing that I think is important to acknowledge is that a certain percentage of cheaters do have mental illnesses / mental explanations for their cheating, and to pretend otherwise is to ignore this reality. We can argue about the percentages (10%? 30%? 50%?) but the truth is there's a measureable number for whom this is true.
> 
> I suppose we can say (for argument's sake) that a cheater with BPD, NPD, bi-polar, depression, or asperger's had "needs" that weren't being met. But here is something that's just as true for mentally healthy people as for those less fortunate: some of those "needs" are reasonable needs--_and some of them are not_.
> 
> I feel perfectly safe saying this because I will easily own up to at least 80% of the vulnerability of our marriage before my husband had his long-term emotional affair. But he NEVER asked for counseling, NEVER told me his head was under water, NEVER asked for a divorce, NEVER walked out. He just decided to confide in an attractive member of the opposite sex who was struggling with issues in her own marriage (her husband married her for love, she married him for his status and money).
> 
> So I can say without a doubt that the way I was as a person, and the way I behaved in my marriage, led inexorably to my husband having an affair. On judgment day God will no doubt look me in the eye and remind me of every argument, every unkindness, every time I chose to vent and whine and complain and every time I didn't show compassion to my husband.
> 
> But you know what God--if there is a God--is not going to say to me? He is not going to say, and you are to blame for your husband violating his marriage vows.
> 
> Each of us human beings, we have free will, and each minute of each day we have certain choices we can make about how we behave and how we treat other people. But in the end we make our own choices and the buck stops there. Thank God for that.


Well put. There were many times in my marriage where I felt left out, lonely and unappreciated, but realized they were normal feelings during period of married life. Sometimes other things take priority, such as children, sick parents or just keeping a roof over their heads. But even at the very worst of times I would never have cheated on my spouse, if it had ever come close to that point I would brought up my feelings and made them clear. 

The idea that someone can bottle up a pile of crap that could have been solved in 20 minutes for 20 years and not say anything seems like a "cop out" to me, an excuse you can't defend yourself from.


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## Jacksonp

Well just wanted to give a update. Thinks are going very well between me and the wife. I'm starting to feel better now I'm eating and feeling better about life in general. I let her know the night before last that if I have to leave the house this Friday that would be a huge mistake and let her know how I feel about her and everything that I have learned these last few weeks. I have noticed a few more things she has been doing the last couple days that is showing me that she still wants me around. I guess I have to wait and see. The important thing is we are still together now and working on the issues.


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## iheartlife

Glad to hear it--keep us updated.


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## mrmagoo

allthegoodnamesaregone said:


> Some women at middle age go right off the rails and nothing you could do will make any difference.
> 
> I had similar beliefs to Rivers when I used to hear these stories, I'd think "Man , I wonder what he did to her?". That is until it happened to me and I saw first hand the lying, cheating and manipulation wives are capable of.
> 
> My wife when asked could not come up with one reason for her wanting to leave our marriage, only that "she'd been unhappy for a while" and refused to talk any further about it. She also refused to go to MC with me to discuss what ever issues she might have had with me. Six months later it came to light she'd been having an affair at least six months before BD, my daughter being the one that found this out.
> 
> So River, if such wives are such paragons of selfless suffering, why are the kids living with me? Why does their mother only see them an hour or so a week and has expressed no interest in their school work for almost a year now? kids who claim their mother has become an "Alien" and is acting like a teenager?
> 
> It's called 'Mid life Crisis' River, it's real and a dirty little secret about women approaching middle age that nobody wants to admit to. Some women manage to pass through this phase and stay in their marriages, many go through a hormonal hell and their marriages fall apart. They run away from relatively conflict free marriages to try and "Find themselves" .
> 
> If you don't believe this I suggest you read up a few of the forums for women dealing with peri-menopause. Many have journals women have kept that show them descending into despair. They are full of stories of how love for their husbands just "disappeared", they feel revolted by his touch and how they now feel attracted to other men or want to run away.
> 
> When you read these journals from start to end there is a pattern to it, they start out mentioning early symptoms and how supportive their husbands are, how lucky they are to have them etc., but as time goes on they begin to resent just about everything in their marriage. If they were stay at home mom's, they resent not having a career, if they had a career they resent not having spent enough time with the kids. Decisions that were often their desire, the bigger house, the fourth child, moving to the country etc. become "Mistakes they were forced into".
> 
> These very things they wanted required Hubby to work long hours and he get's told he never spent enough time with her. The idea that there was not much time left after working overtime, driving the four kids to activities and mowing a couple acres of grass every weekend does not seem to occur to these women.
> 
> So River there you have it, the wives a lot of these guys are talking about indeed did not raise these issues during the marriage, or suggest it was a major issue for them, it all gets turned around leading up to menopause and dumped on them. No husband is perfect, but there is no excuse for infidelity, none.





Allthegoodnames, 

Can you point me to journals and such where these types of feelings are admitted to? Its almost is kind of like blaming the spouse for getting cancer. Blaming a spouse for a whirlwind of hormonal changes and their emotional fallout. It's a real shame but yea, its like PMS on steroids. I also read the MLC could last anywhere between 2 and 5 years. Does this correspond with the hormones I wonder? My wife had all bloodwork check out normal although I think they have a broad spectrum. Dr wanted her to take and AD, she'd have no part of it. She slowly tries to buy back in, largely because I've made lots of changes and barring that, I keep repeating theres the door if you must... Anyway, she said she still feels dead inside although our $exlife is and always has been phenominal, even in the worst of times. 
good stuff, I wish she could delve into this possibility of either a MLC/hormonal changes, she turned 41 in April. Also to your point on the fickleness, she wanted to be a SAHM so we did that and she wasn't happy. She wanted to go back to work and did that and isn't happy. So what then???? LOOK TO THE HUSBAND
*************************
If you don't believe this I suggest you read up a few of the forums for women dealing with peri-menopause. Many have journals women have kept that show them descending into despair. They are full of stories of how love for their husbands just "disappeared", they feel revolted by his touch and how they now feel attracted to other men or want to run away.


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## allthegoodnamesaregone

mrmagoo said:


> Allthegoodnames,
> 
> Can you point me to journals and such where these types of feelings are admitted to? Its almost is kind of like blaming the spouse for getting cancer. Blaming a spouse for a whirlwind of hormonal changes and their emotional fallout. It's a real shame but yea, its like PMS on steroids. I also read the MLC could last anywhere between 2 and 5 years. Does this correspond with the hormones I wonder? My wife had all bloodwork check out normal although I think they have a broad spectrum. Dr wanted her to take and AD, she'd have no part of it. She slowly tries to buy back in, largely because I've made lots of changes and barring that, I keep repeating theres the door if you must... Anyway, she said she still feels dead inside although our $exlife is and always has been phenominal, even in the worst of times.
> good stuff, I wish she could delve into this possibility of either a MLC/hormonal changes, she turned 41 in April. Also to your point on the fickleness, she wanted to be a SAHM so we did that and she wasn't happy. She wanted to go back to work and did that and isn't happy. So what then???? LOOK TO THE HUSBAND
> *************************
> If you don't believe this I suggest you read up a few of the forums for women dealing with peri-menopause. Many have journals women have kept that show them descending into despair. They are full of stories of how love for their husbands just "disappeared", they feel revolted by his touch and how they now feel attracted to other men or want to run away.


Check over on the "Hero Spouse" forum The Hero's Spouse and the forums on LifeTwo | The Midlife Resource | Midlife Crisis, Reassessment, and Redirection. You'll have to search around, A lady named "Lisa" posted on Lifetwo for a couple years and you can read through her posts and see what she's going through. Another very kind lady Named "JuliaG"on lifetwo has been posting what she's going through ( just starting in to it) and has promised to continue as long as she's able. See here JuliaG | LifeTwo


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## Jacksonp

Hello everybody that has viewed this post. I wanted to say thanks for everybody's input on my issue. My marriage is back stronger than ever and I am very happy for this. I really wanted to go though my experience and sum everything up. The bottom line of this issue was my wife thinking I didn't care for her anymore because she felt I only cared for myself. The lessen learned here was that no matter how unhappy a person is with their marriage they just can't bottle things up inside. You can't expect a person to know how your feeling unless you express those feelings to the person your unhappy with. Talk is very cheap, if you can't express those feelings by doing things that show the other person you care than maybe you really don't care. I have seen actions are louder than words. I also see that both people need to express these feelings or it will not work. When I first started to show my real feelings towards my wife, she would show really no emotion at all. This made me feel that she didn't care and the more I felt this I was starting to move to another direction. I started to feel that I didn't want to waste my time on someone that didn't care for me. I believe the one comment I made saved my marriage. Don't get me wrong there was alot of other things I was doing during the month that made this work also, but I believe if I didn't say this my marriage may have ended. It was on the last day that we agreed that I was going to move out. I said I understand that you have feeling that are bottled inside that I don't understand. You think if you are left alone that you will figure out these feelings and once this is done we will be able to get back together and start fresh again. I said unfortunately it doesn't work that way. Feeling just don't go away and if I'm not here to help you work through these problems they will never go away. I also said if I leave I really don't know if I could come back because I don't know if I could be with someone that would want to gamble on our future. Than I said the choice is yours and I don't want to talk about this again. We left each other for about a hour during that our I packed my bags and was ready to leave and she came back into our room and said she didn't want me to leave. Ever since that day we have been together. Talking, laughing, and spending quality time together. None of this would of happened if I didn't take the time and effort to show her that I love her and care for her as a person. This isn't going to work for everyone, but I believe if the person truly loves you and you truly love them and you really take the time to learn how to express your felling to your spouse things will work out.


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## allthegoodnamesaregone

I'm very happy for you, but I think the answer to what your problem was a result of "manning up" and not talk. I'm quite sure she was working up to leaving you, and had been bottling up all that crap she should have talked about, you simple caught her before she had a plan in place and by your actions called her on it. I don't think this is over yet and I still think you need to verify any possibility of an EA.


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## Lon

True, you have to show the people you love some love, and in the way that they need it. However life is hard work and requires juggling priorities sometimes, and in marriage you need assurance that you have a partner that will have your back and not just leave as soon as you face hardship.

And what did you find out about your W through this Jackson? The next time your priorities get juggled and she feels neglected by you will you be wondering if she's going to stick around? And if you decide to cave in to her treat and put her at the top of your pedestal, how much does that limit your own life? If you stick together and are on the same podium then atleast you don't have to worry about where each other are all the time, you can focus on the things in life you want to pursue and know you got each others back. I hope you are able to work on this with her, good luck...


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## turnera

I'm glad it's working out, but I will suggest you continue working on yourself. Did you ever read No More Mr Nice Guy, and Hold On To Your N.U.T.S.? Make sure you do. And make sure you read His Needs Her Needs, WITH your wife.


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## River1977

Wonderful for you and your wife, JacksonP. Although it was hard and hurtful, you remained hopeful and optimistic all the long and really worked to earn your marriage back. Bravo to you, and bravo to her for recognizing she has a really special guy she would do well to hold on to.


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## iheartlife

Jacksonp said:


> The bottom line of this issue was my wife thinking I didn't care for her anymore because she felt I only cared for myself. The lessen learned here was that no matter how unhappy a person is with their marriage they just can't bottle things up inside. You can't expect a person to know how your feeling unless you express those feelings to the person your unhappy with. Talk is very cheap, if you can't express those feelings by doing things that show the other person you care than maybe you really don't care. I have seen actions are louder than words. I also see that both people need to express these feelings or it will not work. When I first started to show my real feelings towards my wife, she would show really no emotion at all. This made me feel that she didn't care and the more I felt this I was starting to move to another direction. I started to feel that I didn't want to waste my time on someone that didn't care for me. I believe the one comment I made saved my marriage. Don't get me wrong there was alot of other things I was doing during the month that made this work also, but I believe if I didn't say this my marriage may have ended. It was on the last day that we agreed that I was going to move out. I said I understand that you have feeling that are bottled inside that I don't understand. You think if you are left alone that you will figure out these feelings and once this is done we will be able to get back together and start fresh again. I said unfortunately it doesn't work that way. Feeling just don't go away and if I'm not here to help you work through these problems they will never go away. I also said if I leave I really don't know if I could come back because I don't know if I could be with someone that would want to gamble on our future. Than I said the choice is yours and I don't want to talk about this again.


Jacksonp, I am so happy for you and your wife. There were so many moments during the last few weeks where it really seemed like things were so bleak.

I am glad, however, that while you recognized that there were many things you could work on and change, and that you did a lot of hard work to transform yourself and set new standards to live by, that you realize the core problem was that she had let resentments build without sharing them with you. No one is a mind reader. Now that you understand that she has that tendency, this is something to be on guard for.

Our excellent MC loves the book The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work by Gottman. In that book he has what is (inartfully) called the Marital Poop Detector. If there was ever a couple that would benefit from it, it's the two of you. 

The idea is that once a week, you do an assessment of the marriage. The full list of things to examine is in the book. To quote another website:



> John Gottman suggests that these issues be revisited on a regular basis in order to keep potential problems from spinning out of control.
> •I’ve been irritable and out of sorts lately.
> •I feel emotionally distant from my wife lately.
> •I just want to be somewhere else.
> •I’ve been feeling lonely.
> •I’m feeling angry lately.
> •I’m just out of touch with my spouse.
> •I would like to feel closer to my spouse.
> •I’ve been feeling tension between us lately


The full list of 25 things is on page 263 of his book, you can view them via Google books (although the explanation on pages 261-62 can't be viewed).
The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work - John Mordechai Gottman, Nan Silver - Google Books

Because you know this is her tendency, I would use the ideas in that book or elsewhere to guard against it. Her needs, wants, and expectations are going to change with time. You are STILL not a mind reader. You will have to dig this stuff out of her periodically. I know it isn't very fair, but that is who you married. She is lucky that she found someone who put in the effort, because a lot of other people (men or women) would not.


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