# Understanding Myself



## Inspired (Nov 3, 2018)

I had some good advice here after sharing about ending a negative relationship.
I am now looking for ...not sure what?

He was/is a narcissist or at the least a self opinionated, self centred man, incapable of telling the truth, lied to secure his own pleasure or advantage, cheated,manipulated took advantage of all and sundry, totally self absorbed with a horrible fast and explosive temper.. but not diagnosed as a narcissist.

I have worked on finding things I enjoy that do not include the things we used to do for fun.
I have tried to make new friends and I have focused on work.
I have thought about what makes me tick:
Am I a pleaser- maybe, a conflict avoider- definitely, over developed sense of loyalty- yes I think so

If I was someone else I would be shocked that they stayed in such a relationship for 4 years, so very often unhappy as re reading my journals tells me.
So the million dollar question
Why do I still miss him? Deeply 
What on earth is wrong with me?

Logically I know and tell myself the relationship was a sham- something that was never good for me. I hold that thought then something unexpected happens that ticks a good memory and I return to a dark horrible hole that is hard to crawl out of.
Obviously there were good moments, many I try to cut out - but how do I erase 4 years of my life?

I am not sure how to get past this. A therapist told me in so many words- " Get over yourself" 
I know this is probably true but how?

How do I stop him impacting my happiness now.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

It will take time to stop wondering "if only" this/that, it's normal. There is usually a grieving period at a relationship's end, even if logic tells us there shouldn't be.

Try not to dwell, know in your own heart and mind you've done the right thing by ending a bad situation. 

Recognize no one is an automaton and can cut off all emotions at once, let yourself process and come out the other side of your feelings about the ending.

You'll be ok. 

Easier said than done but don't doubt you'll be ok.


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## Inspired (Nov 3, 2018)

I need to hear that and believe that, thank you for your thought..


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Inspired said:


> I had some good advice here after sharing about ending a negative relationship.
> I am now looking for ...not sure what?
> 
> He was/is a narcissist or at the least a self opinionated, self centred man, incapable of telling the truth, lied to secure his own pleasure or advantage, cheated,manipulated took advantage of all and sundry, totally self absorbed with a horrible fast and explosive temper.. but not diagnosed as a narcissist.
> ...


There is probably no advice the I, and maybe others, that could help with this. 

I don't know if you are in therapy or not, but you really need to be. And not some quack "the world is always wonderful" therapist either. You need someone that is a no bull****, straight up, willing to say "this is wrong", "no you are thinking wrong here" and on and on. 

Here is the bottom line for some of it. People pleaser means that to a certain extent you are a codependent person, which is a bad why to be. Part of codependency is thinking that if you put your needs, and even things that you deserve... if you put those needs and feelings aside for another person or people... they will be happy, and you therefore will also be happy. 

The thing is, we can never make people happy, and in doing that, you become miserable. 

There is a lot more to it, but being codependent in not the way that you want to live your life. In the end, you will become unhappy. 

Conflict avoidance... 

Here, this kind of ties into codependency... But not arguing or dealing with conflict, even with someone that has wronged you, you don't cause trouble, and again, they will be happy. (but they are not and you are miserable). 

Conflict avoidance is not the same but it is different and it does affect our lives differently in some ways. 

In some ways, both of these things come down to low self esteem. 

1) If I am perfect, he will love me. 
2) If I don't argue with him he will love me. 
3) I really don't deserve him, if I do these things, he will love me. 
4) You could go on and on. 

The deal is, that if you do not love yourself, if you do not believe that you deserve to have a loving and honest partner or friend, then you will never be able to have one. 

Until you are healthy enough to love yourself, to believe that you deserve the things in life that you want, you will never get where you want to be. 

This is not about being selfish, it is about knowing that you deserve to be happy and other people will not make you that way, only you can do that...


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> It will take time to stop wondering "if only" this/that, it's normal. There is usually a grieving period at a relationship's end, even if logic tells us there shouldn't be.
> 
> Try not to dwell, know in your own heart and mind you've done the right thing by ending a bad situation.
> 
> ...


^^^ This is spot-on advice. Like Ragnar said, it's easier said than done, but it will come. I was in a marriage that felt like one big lie too, and it was also to someone who had narcissistic tendencies. He wasn't diagnosed either, but I heavily suspect he's exactly that. I'm sure that there were some really good memories and times that you guys had; me too. But in the end, you guys went your separate ways because the negative outweighed the positive. Remember that, and remember that there were qualities within him and within your marriage that you couldn't live with for the long-term.


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## Zodiac (Dec 7, 2018)

I was with a woman that could have been a carbon copy of your ex. I'm also a people pleaser/KISA (knight in shining armor). I was with her 13 years 3 attempts, 3 years total between the break ups. I also was a stoner. She used to say she made me get high.... the short answer, yes. I would get loaded and play video games and be her pedestal man that let her be a tyrant. I will bullet point some highlights for me that helped. 

* I 180'd this time. Absolutely zero contact, blocked on everything.
* READ CODEPENDANT NO MORE, prepare for the two by fours.
*realize that you have been conditioned. His acceptance, approval, affection and anything else he could use to condition you, he did and you didn't realize. 
*you're a strong kind hearted spirit, that's why it lasted as long as it did.
*since you where conditioned you are essentially addicted to him. Take up prayer or meditation to help focus your mind.
*he doesn't care how much he hurt you, etc. Any contact will just feed his ego. 
*I loved my ex, but was it a loving relationship? (This is a hard question) short answer, no but maybe..... nope it wasn't.
*you could never fix him or do anything for him he didn't want to do.

Good luck, will be following the thread to add if it devolp but while at work this is what I got. 😀😁

Be strong for yourself which is going to be harder then you can imagine. You stated it, you're going to have to relearn who you are after this relstionship.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Well darn, I was going to suggest you see a therapist, but "get over yourself" is hardly constructive and hardly helpful.

But, I'm still going to suggest it, except I submit you didn't see the right kind of counselor at the right. What you need right now is grief counseling as if someone died because that's exactly what ending a relationship is. You go through all the same gamut of emotions. After grief counseling, you'll be better able to manage those emotions and reconcile the relationship is over. Then you can seek counseling to help with your own issues. One step at a time. 

But whatever you do, don't go back to that same therapist. They're not all the same. Some are better than others, and, unfortunately, you picked a loser.

You are a survivor. Shout to the world how mighty you are!!! But nobody emerges unscathed. Know that, and know that it's manageable. You miss him because you loved him. You miss him because you need to be loved, you know there is someone there for you. But that's a trick your mind plays because he wasn't there for you. He was only there for himself and the pleasure he took in mistreating and manipulating you. And knowing that is also a big part of the trick your psyche plays on you. You need to be loved, and he was there, whether he was loving or not. He filled a spot in your hierarchy of needs, and that's why you put up with him for so long.

You're doing all the right things. Keep it up. Breakups and infidelity have a way of making the heart grow exponentially stronger because they play havoc with your emotions and your sense of identity. Keep doing what you are doing to counter those emotions and you will start missing him less and less. To occupy yourself and take your mind away from him and away from feeling forlorn, read a book or sign up to Audible. There's nothing like being engrossed in a good book to keep your mind busy for 2 or 3 days at a time. Keep going out doing enjoyable things. Keep making friends and nurture those friendships.

And then, don't let this happen again. For future relationships, decide what you will and will not tolerate. The moment they begin, make your exit and move on to the next. There is no hoping a guy isn't the type of person he shows himself to be. Don't be in denial and don't hope he will get better because he won't.


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## Inspired (Nov 3, 2018)

Thanks

How do you people know me so well I appreciate your time.. reassuring if still rather sad

* I 180'd this time. Absolutely zero contact, blocked on everything.
* READ CODEPENDANT NO MORE, prepare for the two by fours.
*realize that you have been conditioned. His acceptance, approval, affection and anything else he could use to condition you, he did and you didn't realize. 
*you're a strong kind hearted spirit, that's why it lasted as long as it did.
*since you where conditioned you are essentially addicted to him. Take up prayer or meditation to help focus your mind.
*he doesn't care how much he hurt you, etc. Any contact will just feed his ego. 
*I loved my ex, but was it a loving relationship? (This is a hard question) short answer, no but maybe..... nope it wasn't.
*you could never fix him or do anything for him he didn't want to do.

I believe you have it right except I thought co-dependent was for the partners of drug addicts etc helping the addict stay addicted 
I will get that book. 
His accusation was " controlling" so I have been reading those books but I did not recognise me there. I recognise me in the descriptions on this thread wanting him to be happy first last and in between- stupid hey?? 
As to being addicted you are right there.. I am getting myself sorted he calls up or calls by and bamn back to sad and miserable
Its like avoiding chocolate then there is a bar opened in front of you and 2 minutes later you are kicking yourself..
Have to do that 180 as well I think.
again thanks I am glad I am not mad.


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## Inspired (Nov 3, 2018)

Thank you for this comment..100% right

You miss him because you loved him. You miss him because you need to be loved, you know there is someone there for you. But that's a trick your mind plays because he wasn't there for you. He was only there for himself and the pleasure he took in mistreating and manipulating you. And knowing that is also a big part of the trick your psyche plays on you. You need to be loved, and he was there, whether he was loving or not. He filled a spot in your hierarchy of needs, and that's why you put up with him for so long.


Exactly and why ? 
How does one avoid the need to be loved?
He was someone to think about and care about and sometimes it was even a lot of fun but mostly it was a lot of work on my part.
very telling I think

he said early in the relationship
"He loved me the best he could". Sometimes he sees his flaws but so very rarely.. but that is no longer my problem.. right?


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## Inspired (Nov 3, 2018)

) If I am perfect, he will love me. 
2) If I don't argue with him he will love me. 
3) I really don't deserve him, if I do these things, he will love me. 
4) You could go on and on. 


my mantra 
God Im a mess..

but the insights from this thread tell me mess but not mad.. as i did begin to wonder.


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## Zodiac (Dec 7, 2018)

excessive emotional or psychological reliance on a partner, typically one who requires support on account of an illness or addiction.


If you where with a Narc, you used him like a drug (chasing the affection) and vice versa. Most people who become addicts or codependent where raised by alcoholics. Naracissm and alcoholics are both highly volatile volcanoes of emotion , they tend to attract people pleasers, make you walk around like egg shells and leave you emotionally drained as you supported it all. If you feel you don't need it, then awesome. People dont stick in toxic or abusive realtioships if they don't have a co dependency.


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## Zodiac (Dec 7, 2018)

Inspired said:


> ) If I am perfect, he will love me.
> 2) If I don't argue with him he will love me.
> 3) I really don't deserve him, if I do these things, he will love me.
> 4) You could go on and on.
> ...


Read the book. These are red flags. Co dependency and narcasiism go hand in hand, both are unhealthy views of one self. Birds of a feather flock together. Do you fall Into these?

Having difficulty making decisions in a relationship
Having difficulty identifying your feelings
Having difficulty communicating in a relationship
Valuing the approval of others more than valuing yourself
Lacking trust in yourself and having poor self-esteem
Having fears of abandonment or an obsessive need for approval
Having an unhealthy dependence on relationships, even at your own cost
Having an exaggerated sense of responsibility for the actions of others


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Inspired said:


> I had some good advice here after sharing about ending a negative relationship.
> I am now looking for ...not sure what?
> 
> He was/is a narcissist or at the least a self opinionated, self centred man, incapable of telling the truth, lied to secure his own pleasure or advantage, cheated,manipulated took advantage of all and sundry, totally self absorbed with a horrible fast and explosive temper.. but not diagnosed as a narcissist.
> ...


The way out of living a life as a partner in dysfunctional relationships is to open up your OWN dysfunctional issues and face them square on.

You have placed another person's opinion, desires, activities and excitement over your own to the point that you don't even know who you are anymore - if you ever even did. 

Somewhere in your background, it hasn't been okay for you to exist. It's only been okay if you attached yourself and agreed to whatever your authority figure(s) said you were allowed to feel, think or do.

You still exist inside of you - you just haven't had a chance to develop to the point of expressing yourself, develop yourself, retrieve your self-esteem back from those who stole it from you.

So, what do you do? 

The very first thing you do is stay out of any relationship where you can form an attachment that will replace you having to do the work to develop and unveil your own self. If you don't do this, you will get yourself right back into another relationship just like the one you got out of.

Your self-esteem has been trampled way too long. During the course of trying to be a nice human being, you got trampled on, trampled under and taken over. 

NO MORE.

I spent a couple of weeks at a Women's Shelter once to get away from an abusive guy. I was stunned at the group sessions and the women in those sessions who told their stories of being verbally and/or physically abused by partners - and then how they turned around and YEARNED to be back with these partners. One woman even sneaked out of the shelter (a common thing and a no-no at a shelter) to be back with the guy who had landed her there in the first place.

Being with an abusive narcissist is probably one of the craziest, crazy-making relationships one can ever be in. When they are charming, they are the MOST charming. When they blow up, things get literally broken in the rages. Then, the honeymoon phase kicks in and he's convincingly humble and so, so sorry and it will never happen again and he would NEVER hurt you, you mean everything to him, yada, yada, yada. The HOOK that keeps you there. Believe me, these guys know exactly what they are doing and how to work the women they hold captive.

There are TONS of books on the topic - read, read, read. You will read the stories of so many women that you will be able to relate to. And about how to rebuild your own self so that you will recognize the hooks and stay away from the men who try to lure you into being with them.

Once you rebuild yourself, you will be able to live your life the way it was intended. 

But as for the guy in my life prior to my reconditioning, I no longer excuse the good times as something to cling to. Anything that was pleasant was fake. I'm lucky he didn't kill me. He was certainly big enough to do so and held me captive once.

If you didn't experience a fear for your life, it just hadn't happened yet. A large number of these guys walk a thin line between abuse and committing murder. To me, I think I got "scared straight" if you will by being in the women's shelter - in addition to having lost a colleague who was murdered by her ex-spouse. After that, I stopped thinking "Oh, that would never happen to me" and started realizing I was very lucky to be breathing and having a second chance at life. 

And I wasn't going to blow it by repeating my same dysfunctional thinking and behavior. I had to change. So, I got a lot of therapy but I also read a ton of books and made a lot of effort to become a stronger person who could spot abusers before they could enter my sphere of existence.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

People tend to focus on the wrong aspect of the 180 to their own detriment. While part of the purpose of the 180 is to redirect your focus away for your ex, it is only part of it. The other part is where to direct that focus. This is where many fail, because they do not focus on them self. When you do that, you can start to see what your own issues are. You are not responsible for whatever your ex may have done, but you are responsible in allowing it to happen to you. Learn why you did what you did and grow from the lessons.
So do not stop doing the things you enjoyed with your ex, unless it is just something that YOU really didn't enjoy.
Do not focus on making new friends. Focus on making friends with yourself. Other friends will simply appear once you are comfortable with your self.
That goes hand in hand with thinking about what makes you tick. The only way to find that out is to explore and discover and make mistakes and learn from your mistakes and your successes
Finally, if you recognize these things in your self - address them head on. Conquer your fears. Many times they whatever you fear is only in your mind. So if you are conflict avoidant, you imagine the worst thing will happen if you engage in conflict. More often than not, you will come out stronger once you do.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I think that part of what you are searching for is how do you protect yourself from ever falling into a bad relationship again. This sort of though process tends to lead a person into mulling over every aspect of the relationship and their own behavior. It turns into big dark hole that you cannot get out of because the answer are not there, so round and round you go wondering and over thinking.

Instead look at what you need to do in the future. You need to figure out what you need in a relationship and what you will not tolerate. Then you set boundaries. For example a good boundary is "I will not be in a relationship with someone who lies." Then in any new relationship, if the person lies, you use your boundary. You end the relationship after the first lie.

There are some very good books about setting boundaries and relationships. You would probably benefit from reading a couple of them and doing the work.


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## Inspired (Nov 3, 2018)

Zodiac said:


> Read the book. These are red flags. Co dependency and narcasiism go hand in hand, both are unhealthy views of one self. Birds of a feather flock together. Do you fall Into these?
> 
> _Having difficulty making decisions in a relationship
> Having difficulty identifying your feelings
> ...


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## Inspired (Nov 3, 2018)

> You have placed another person's opinion, desires, activities and excitement over your own to the point that you don't even know who you are anymore - if you ever even did.


This is true and what is worse is I knew I was doing this and did not stop. he was happy so it must be OK is what I told myself> How did I get to be so pathetic??




> The very first thing you do is stay out of any relationship where you can form an attachment that will replace you having to do the work to develop and unveil your own self. If you don't do this, you will get yourself right back into another relationship just like the one you got out of.


I had sort of worked that one out though tempting as it is to be in a relationship I need longer to find myself again.





> Being with an abusive narcissist is probably one of the craziest, crazy-making relationships one can ever be in. When they are charming, they are the MOST charming. When they blow up, things get literally broken in the rages. Then, the honeymoon phase kicks in and he's convincingly humble and so, so sorry and it will never happen again and he would NEVER hurt you, you mean everything to him, yada, yada, yada. The HOOK that keeps you there. Believe me, these guys know exactly what they are doing and how to work the women they hold captive.


You have that exactly right. It was the crazy train. He controlled the rages for a time but then in recent times they have been amazing to behold. The transformation of his face when he was thwarted - terrifying.

You are right about rebuilding myself. That is my newest project.


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## Inspired (Nov 3, 2018)

> This sort of though process tends to lead a person into mulling over every aspect of the relationship and their own behavior. It turns into big dark hole that you cannot get out of because the answer are not there, so round and round you go wondering and over thinking.


I am the world's biggest " reviewer of events" My partner described it as always looking backwards. I saw it more as trying to learn from my mistakes.
I also wonder how I allowed this to continue for so long. Why was I so weak with boundaries? More annoying is the moments of regret that it is over. It was all so bad for me in so many ways yet still regret ! I have to be better than that.




> There are some very good books about setting boundaries and relationships. You would probably benefit from reading a couple of them and doing the work.


 Any titles that are particularly useful? I ended up ordering one written by a so called narcissist.. His tone gave me the creeps.

These idea really help. at least I know I am not the first one to be in this position.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Inspired said:


> I am the world's biggest "reviewer of events" My partner described it as always looking backwards. I saw it more as trying to learn from my mistakes.
> 
> I also wonder how I allowed this to continue for so long. Why was I so weak with boundaries? More annoying is the moments of regret that it is over. It was all so bad for me in so many ways yet still regret! I have to be better than that.
> 
> ...


you are definitely no the first one in this position. 

What book did you order that was written by a "narcissist"?

*Where to Draw the Line: How to Set Healthy Boundaries Every Day* by Anne Katherine

*The Art of Everyday Assertiveness: Speak Up. Say No. Set Boundaries.* Take Back Control by Patrick King 

*Boundaries in Dating: How Healthy Choices Grow Healthy Relationships* by Henry Cloud 

Henry Cloud's books has a religious slant, so if you are not religious, his books might not be for you. He has a series of books about boundaries. The above link is to his dating boundaries book. But take a look at all the books and see which one(s) fit for your circumstance.

I think that you would also benefit from a couple of books that will teach you want a good relationship looks like. The two books I'm thinking of for this are "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs".


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## Pac-Man (Jun 5, 2018)

Inspired said:


> I hold that thought then something unexpected happens that ticks a good memory and I return to a dark horrible hole that is hard to crawl out of.
> Obviously there were good moments, many I try to cut out - but how do I erase 4 years of my life?





Inspired said:


> More annoying is the moments of regret that it is over. It was all so bad for me in so many ways yet still regret ! I have to be better than that.


Personally, I don't think that you need to forget the good moments in order to lose the regrets.

I still have some good memories of moments with my first girlfriend.
That relationship was bad and I never had any regrets for the breakup. It was more than 20 years ago now.
And I don't see any contradiction between the two previous lines. 

Regrets will slowly fade as you are building a new life, a new routine with new habits and new things to think about. It will be true whether you're single or with someone new. But If the process isn't already complete, you will lose any remaining regrets as soon as you get interested in someone else.

As we age, we accumulate good memories of various moments with people who came into our life: ex-lovers, co-workers, etc. 
It's better to accumulate these memories than having your mind fixed on bad times. 
Combining no regrets and a few good memories is the best closure you can get.
It's better to make peace with the past than trying erase it.

Taking a time out to self-reflect and reading a few books is good. I am sure you will be out of the funk soon.


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## Zodiac (Dec 7, 2018)

Inspired said:


> Zodiac said:
> 
> 
> > Read the book. These are red flags. Co dependency and narcasiism go hand in hand, both are unhealthy views of one self. Birds of a feather flock together. Do you fall Into these?
> ...


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## Inspired (Nov 3, 2018)

EleGirl

the Book is The Narcissists Codependent HG Tudor It has an unpleasant tone, one of pride.
I have His Needs her Needs i think I took the His Needs part too seriously !
I will order the other books, set myself up for a more positive future.


Zodiac I would have done anything for him, way more than he for me. Your relationship sounds awful, I connect with the zero respect. i recall the conversations that ended with him mocking me for crying because he had managed to make me cry. horrible experience

PacMan
i am waiting for regrets to fade and the awful memories to fade. There were many good memories I will do my best to hold onto them.


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## Zodiac (Dec 7, 2018)

Inspired said:


> Zodiac I would have done anything for him, way more than he for me. Your relationship sounds awful, I connect with the zero respect. i recall the conversations that ended with him mocking me for crying because he had managed to make me cry. horrible experience
> 
> PacMan
> i am waiting for regrets to fade and the awful memories to fade. There were many good memories I will do my best to hold onto them.


Well If youu can relate to the zero respect that sounds awful as well. No one in a healthy relationship would understand that. I say this because the conditioning that happens mentally and emotionally is so subtle you don't even realize you're looking through a different lens for life. Everything is twisted. He mocked you for you expressing yourself.... when you say it slowly to yourself and imagine a friend telling you this about their current bf what would your reaction be?

The problem with holding on to the good moments in that sort of relationship you will constantly "what if" ablout it. You'll think you could have done Something with yourself to make that the norm. Thats the conditioning. Better off just accepting all the good moments was because HE wanted to have them so he ALLOWED, it, or it was part of the conditioning.


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## Pac-Man (Jun 5, 2018)

Zodiac said:


> The problem with holding on to the good moments in that sort of relationship you will constantly "what if" ablout it. You'll think you could have done Something with yourself to make that the norm. Thats the conditioning. Better off just accepting all the good moments was because HE wanted to have them so he ALLOWED, it, or it was part of the conditioning.


Inspired, I gave my humble opinion based on reading a few page about you. I don't claim any kind of authority about the subject. It was just food for thought, you have to judge for yourself. 

Best Regards


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## Zodiac (Dec 7, 2018)

Pac-Man said:


> Zodiac said:
> 
> 
> > The problem with holding on to the good moments in that sort of relationship you will constantly "what if" ablout it. You'll think you could have done Something with yourself to make that the norm. Thats the conditioning. Better off just accepting all the good moments was because HE wanted to have them so he ALLOWED, it, or it was part of the conditioning.
> ...


You're right. I tend to be hyper sensitive in regards to narcs. I follow a lot of support pages regarding narcs and emotional abuse. Happy thoughts reagrding the narc typically leads to Rumination for the non narc by the end of the nostalgia trip. You're Not wrong Pac, each their own. I wish i could do it, it led to me.ruminating and causing alot of damage between my KISA tendencies and my co dependency.


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## Pac-Man (Jun 5, 2018)

Inspired said:


> PacMan
> i am waiting for regrets to fade and the awful memories to fade. There were many good memories I will do my best to hold onto them.





Zodiac said:


> You're Not wrong Pac, each their own. I wish i could do it, it led to me.ruminating and causing alot of damage between my KISA tendencies and my co dependency.


Inspired, I gave you an advice that was the total opposite of your point of view in your first post, and you accepted it without discussion. I could have taken that as flattering but it was too easy. So I went back reading the whole thread and I saw that you didn't challenge or debate anything that was offered to you. Maybe you were lucky and got only advices and comments that really apply to your own life. Maybe not. My previous post was about the fact that we have to be careful.

Now, in my humble opinion...

If you have been in a relationship with someone for a few years, it's normal that there was at least some good moments. 

You don't have to make any effort to hold on the good memories. You just need to accept them. And accept that the breakup was the best decision. And let those two things sit beside each other peacefully in your mind.

Trying to resolve the apparent contradiction of having had good times with a bad person may send your mind spinning in an endless loop, wasting your mental energy.

You are not a well trained psychologist. And even professional psychologists don't do official diagnostics on their own spouse because they would lack objectivity. So, identifying your ex-boyfriend pathologies and analyzing them in details is not your job.

Reading about narcissism, co-dependency or emotional abuse would put the focus on your ex. Reading about boundaries, as EleGirl suggested, would put the focus on yourself. Combined with other books about good relationships, you will get pratical tips for the future. At some point, you will be yearning to put those tips into practice with someone new. That will mean you are moving on. 

(The books about pathologies could be useful if you were still stuck in a bad relationship and trying to decide what you should do. You are already past that. Good for you!)


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## Zodiac (Dec 7, 2018)

PACMAN - That's a really good perspective. I was going to write a paragraph reply but dont want to thread jack. You gave me some insight. I will be checking out one of the boundary books elegirl posted about after I finish listening to the 12 rules of life. By J. Peterson. 

OP, I hope you are doing well. Focus on the good if it happens. One foot in front of the other. 😁


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## Inspired (Nov 3, 2018)

> The problem with holding on to the good moments in that sort of relationship you will constantly "what if" ablout it. You'll think you could have done Something with yourself to make that the norm. Thats the conditioning. Better off just accepting all the good moments was because HE wanted to have them so he ALLOWED, it, or it was part of the conditioning.


I am certainly a "what if" type of thinker- could I have improved things if...? 
I find it hard to believe he was consciously ALLOWING or not allowing anything. I think it was more he looks after himself and his own needs to the exclusion of all others, a comment that this is happening is seen as criticism that results in a tantrum because he feels slighted or feels guilty and he does not like to feel like he is ever at fault.
I avoid these situations by never raising the issues which would set him off.
I know it was not a clever choice and certainly an unhealthy way to live. 
Those I need to acknowledge without trying to reimagine the past. Its past done and is not coming back.


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## Inspired (Nov 3, 2018)

> Trying to resolve the apparent contradiction of having had good times with a bad person may send your mind spinning in an endless loop, wasting your mental energy.
> 
> You are not a well trained psychologist. And even professional psychologists don't do official diagnostics on their own spouse because they would lack objectivity. So, identifying your ex-boyfriend pathologies and analyzing them in details is not your job.


.
Thanks PacMan The contradiction does indeed send my mind spinning. I hope with greater distance some of our amazing experiences can be recalled and reflected upon with out the hurt of the rest of the relationship
Intellectually I knew it was very bad, emotionally I was stuck. This thread had really confirmed that I was not wrong and it really is valuable to read that my choice was the right one.
I did not plan to buy a book written by a narcissist it just appeared on a search and the blurb did not discuss the author. I am uncomfortable with the labels and as you quite rightly said I am in no position to diagnose any one . More true is that his way of dealing with people made me very unhappy, insecure and constantly questioning so he was a bad match for me.

I


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Inspired said:


> I am certainly a "what if" type of thinker- could I have improved things if...?
> 
> I find it hard to believe he was consciously ALLOWING or not allowing anything. I think it was more he looks after himself and his own needs to the exclusion of all others, a comment that this is happening is seen as criticism that results in a tantrum because he feels slighted or feels guilty and he does not like to feel like he is ever at fault.
> 
> ...


I agree that this sort of introspection is important. You have identified how a person who always puts themself first behaves. In a healthy relationship, each person should focus on making sure that the other person gets what they need and even what they want most of the time. That's being selfless. But when on person is selfless and the other is self-centered, you get what you had. You know this now so you will be able to identify it in the future and end any future relationship the first time you see this.

In my professional life, we do a lessons learned evaluation after each project phase is completed. We list what when right and what went wrong. We id the causes of problems and figure out what we could do in the future to prevent the problems. We also look at what went right and how to ensure that we continue to do them right.

If this is what you are doing with your past, doing a lessons learned evaluation, then that's good. But you have stop the introspection on an item once you have studied it and have learned from it what there is to learn.

Our mistakes are our best teachers. The tuition is high. But if we learn the lesson, it's worth the tuition.


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## Inspired (Nov 3, 2018)

the 12 rules of life. By J. Peterson. 

OP, I hope you are doing well. Focus on the good if it happens. One foot in front of the other. 😁[/QUOTE]

Might try that one too. 12 rules.

Today was one of those days when I question myself.. maybe it was my controlling attitude then I remember that he shouted 
controlling when caught in a blatant lie, usually involving another woman.. 
so no it was not my fault and no that was not OK 

What was not OK about me was that I tolerated it more than once.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Inspired said:


> What was not OK about me was that I tolerated it more than once.


A lot of people do this... tolerate things that we should not over and over.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

I was in a relationship with a narcissist for 15 years and I’ve asked the same questions you have. I did a lot of research on the typical narcissist behavior and just like they are completely messed up, those that often fall for them are equally messed up in a different way. I’m sorry if this is harsh or too honest but I had to Face this harsh truth as well...

We are too nice, and kind hearted and forgiving like many people will say. Yes this is true. Yes I guess you can say we are the victim. But that mentality and poor me attitude does not help us. 

I don’t know about you, but I know that I am completely messed up. It’s who I am. On the outside I am completely together, and successful and happy. On the inside I am half of a person looking for someone to make me feel loved. Yes I know how messed up this is. 

At the end of the day it is what it is. And I think too much self reflection is bad. You need to own your participation in it, learn from it and move on. I started by being completely honest with myself and who I am. Yes I have emotional problems, but the good thing is I am aware of them and I will not let them ruin my life. 

For me... I grieved the relationship. I let it hurt, I tried to understand what happened. Then I made the decision to let it go. I realized that it doesn’t matter what happened. It’s over. I decided not to look back. I threw away every picture Of him. I blocked him on email and phone Bc he kept trying to reach out. And then I made a plan to be excited for the future possibilities. 

Some quotes that have helped me...

Why? Because some people are just terrible people. And terrible people do terrible things. Stop trying to rack your brain trying to understand it.

Let go of the illusion that it could’ve been any different. 

We all eat lies when our hearts are hungry. 

I’m a big motivational, quote person. Each phase I went through to get over him I would use them to help me if that makes sense. You can’t be stuck forever. Do not be stuck on a phase like trying to understand what happened. You have to move on.


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## Inspired (Nov 3, 2018)

Girl_Power
I can relate to your thought:

[/QUOTE]I don’t know about you, but I know that I am completely messed up. It’s who I am. On the outside I am completely together, and successful and happy. On the inside I am half of a person looking for someone to make me feel loved. Yes I know how messed up this is. [/QUOTE]


But not sure about messed up. I suspect any people have the outward persona and the inward one. The half person thought resonated with me. Very true and something I find difficult to change.I do hate planning a future alone, weekends alone and being a third wheel is even more of a trial. I do the gratitude blah blah blah at the end of the day I am still talking to myself- alone and I do not like it, actually hate it. BUt not enough to want to re-experience the mess that was created by my relationship with him.

And not enough to welcome him back as he currently is suggesting."Hang out and be friends, go back to some of the fun things we used to do". 

The thing I find really difficult to understand is how people lie so easily and without drawing breath from moving from one lie to the next lie and how does some one act as if they are a faithful partner, someone who loves you and yet perform that same act for other women the next day. How does one do that?

I know that is true for him. I have read here about other people like that so he is not unique so how do they do that??
I do not even think at any level that "this could be a potential new partner or lover" when I am in a committed relationship and meet new men. What happens in serial cheats minds? 

And one more wondering. How do people like this continue to lie and hold to that lie with anger when the proof is put before them?
Experienced that more than once.( I know - once should have been enough). I just wonder what their brain is doing when they are saying black is white.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Inspired said:


> Girl_Power
> I can relate to your thought:
> 
> 
> ...


You know... these are all really good questions... Really good. 

But the problem is, mostly normal people, cannot think this way. And unless you study psychology, and study it a lot - like masters level, there really is no way to understand people like this. 

In fact, there is STILL a lot of debate and lack of understanding in the psychological community about all of these issues. And, these people do it for a living, it is their area of expertise. 

All lay people can really do is understand how to spot the SIGNS of these types of disorders, and stay away from them.

I think really trying to completely understand this kind of stuff, in some ways can drive you crazy...


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Inspired said:


> Girl_Power
> I can relate to your thought:


I don’t know about you, but I know that I am completely messed up. It’s who I am. On the outside I am completely together, and successful and happy. On the inside I am half of a person looking for someone to make me feel loved. Yes I know how messed up this is. [/QUOTE]


But not sure about messed up. I suspect any people have the outward persona and the inward one. The half person thought resonated with me. Very true and something I find difficult to change.I do hate planning a future alone, weekends alone and being a third wheel is even more of a trial. I do the gratitude blah blah blah at the end of the day I am still talking to myself- alone and I do not like it, actually hate it. BUt not enough to want to re-experience the mess that was created by my relationship with him.

And not enough to welcome him back as he currently is suggesting."Hang out and be friends, go back to some of the fun things we used to do". 

The thing I find really difficult to understand is how people lie so easily and without drawing breath from moving from one lie to the next lie and how does some one act as if they are a faithful partner, someone who loves you and yet perform that same act for other women the next day. How does one do that?

I know that is true for him. I have read here about other people like that so he is not unique so how do they do that??
I do not even think at any level that "this could be a potential new partner or lover" when I am in a committed relationship and meet new men. What happens in serial cheats minds? 

And one more wondering. How do people like this continue to lie and hold to that lie with anger when the proof is put before them?
Experienced that more than once.( I know - once should have been enough). I just wonder what their brain is doing when they are saying black is white.[/QUOTE]

You have to understand this type of person is fundamentally broken. They don't think there is anything wrong with their behavior because they are not capable of being wrong. It's real and it's deeply routed in them. 

From what I have read it seems like you 1. miss the few positive things that came with the relationship and 2. you are stuck in the if mentality. If he would have been more respectful of me we could have had a happy life together. If he was more giving emotionally we could have had a happy life together. If he just didn't lie and cheat we could have had a happy life together. If is not reality, he is a dumpster fire of a human being and will not change. 

Narcissists are expert manipulators they will do and say anything to get what they want, even pretend to be a completely different person until the get what they want. This is why you have to have ZERO contact with him. Until you have done a lot of work on yourself to the point you can trust yourself to make the right decisions in these types of situations you can't trust yourself. 

What you need to work on is self esteem and self love. Don't let the fear of being alone cause you to make decisions that will hurt you in the long run. It's almost like you need to learn you can be happy on your own to be in a place to protect yourself from this type of guy. Until you know you can be happy on your own you will stay in a bad relationship because you're afraid to be alone.


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## Inspired (Nov 3, 2018)

Happy Husband

My experience with therapy was very uncomfortable but I suspect there are better options so yet another question
How does therapy work?
Good therapy? 

What should/ can my expectations be?
I think about the advice I receive here and I appreciate the different perspectives on my issues. The thoughts of the posters on TAM really help particularly in providing a sense of the logical and reasonable. They also reassure me that I am not being dramatic and making up problems- a relationship with a self absorbed liar is a damaging crazy making thing. As i suspected his mind does not work the same way mine does or other people I care about and that is his problem not mine.

How does one work on self esteem? How does one stop hating being alone. It's not fear - It is boring and sad and pointless. I have much to do, people I can speak with none of that really helps. I am at my core an introvert and groups of friends is something I have never had. Now living where I speak the local language badly my options are further reduced. Will therapy provide a new perspective?


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## Zodiac (Dec 7, 2018)

Inspired said:


> My experience with therapy was very uncomfortable but I suspect there are better options so yet another question
> How does therapy work?
> Good therapy?
> What do you mean uncomfortable? It almost should be. If you have been a people please-er your whole life, prepare for the 2x4's. The Regroup thread goes into a lot of therapy talk. Most people WILL NOT change after 33, i'm 36 on Monday and coming to terms with my life... it has been one staggering epiphany after another. There is ALOT of strength required to look back at your life choices and realize how influenced you were by others. Therapy is essentially getting asked questions you should be asking yourself, and then being honest withyourself. Jordan Petersons 12 life rules hits on it a lot.
> ...


I answered in red. I was with my narc ex for 13 years and 3 attempts. NO CONTACT is the only way.


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## Inspired (Nov 3, 2018)

Hi Zodiac

I think you may have hit the nail on the head with the "outside validation idea"

Part of my reasons for going to therapy was to find a way of being more assertive. I had/have a problem with disappointing people so would often end up doing things i did not want to so they would be happy.. holiday destinations I did not particularly want to go to, movies, dinners, events. Nothing terribly sinister I thought, (though I guess part of the reason my ex was surprised when I finally said enough) He was not the issue here though perhaps on reflection I had not just admitted that to myself..
..
I think a lot. I figured I should be able to solve this myself. I am not stupid I could see it was not a smart way to live I could see it was not good for my happiness but still i found myself signed up to a trip that would cost me a lot of money to a place I did not want to go to with people with whom I did not really want to spend a week.

I thought a therapist could help me find ways of being calmly assertive and manage the stress and guilt I knew I would feel when I said no (it meant others could also not go on this trip without me and the transport.)

The therapist said to " get over myself" .. which did not help and I felt Like I had a made a very big mistake p. Result was I said no but was way too blunt, and rather late in the day and so several people now are barely civil to me- fair enough I think . I should have done that better 

Coming from a background where "strong people do not need therapy" it was a big step for me and the comment did not help. I know other people have much greater problems 
too much explanation?


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## Zodiac (Dec 7, 2018)

Inspired said:


> Hi Zodiac
> 
> I think you may have hit the nail on the head with the "outside validation idea"
> 
> ...


 No not too much explanation, and of course strong people need therapy. Strong people tend to be the ones hurt more then not. I understand where you are coming from. Think about it like this, most people who are in long term abusive relationships, start developing toxic traits for survival and manipulation do they can get their needs met. Monkey see, monkey do. You have effectively acknowledged the dynamics of communication.

I have done some reading regarding my journey with a toxic relationship of 13 years. Here is the stuff I've read to learn boundaries. 

12 rules of life
No more Mr. Nice Guy
Not Just friends
Co-dependent no more
hours and hours on here.

I have 3 more books waiting to be read at the moment.


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## Inspired (Nov 3, 2018)

thanks Zodiac

Read "Co dependent No More" and ordering "Not Just friends."

This suggestion came as a good time as he was wondering if we " Could not be friends? Remember when.... "
I know where that is going and I am avoiding it.
No contact would be perfect, unfortunately life is not set up that way but I can keep it minimal contact and no conversation.

and yes I was NEEDED I feel not WANTED but attention for being frantic or stressed is not my style at all. I am an intensely private person which I think is another reason why it is difficult to push someone out of my life once I let them in. I let very few in.
I deal with things in my head. ( I can hear the comment '' and not very effectively) The closest I have come to sharing lately is here..on TAM


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