# The problematic idea that sex should just be "natural" in a marriage?



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

I've been enjoying a few books here recently that get into the challenging topic about one spouse insisting that sex should just occur naturally. This tends to be a requirement from a spouse with the lower libido that rarely initiates. The spouse with a more active libido will struggle with this requirement and may question as to why his/her advances are rejected when things are done without all the extra effort (normally required for the other spouse to actually be receptive). 

I can see both sides of this argument as my wife insists that things just be simple and natural. And she is right that when things just happen naturally it is indeed great. Yet keeping things natural can also be the cited as the source of almost all our problems. I have some opinions that I am working through and want to better develop on this topic, but first want to hear some different perspectives from those here at TAM. 

How can keeping things simple and natural help solve sexual problems in a marriage?

How can keeping things simple and natural actually cause sexual problems in a marriage? 

One example of things NOT being natural would be scheduling sex to occur regardless of being able to get in the mood or not. Keep in mind this is often the number one thing recommended by most therapists. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Keeping things natural only works if both have a strong libido and either both initiate or the less proactive person rarely says no. Otherwise, like everything else in a relationship, some work, negotiation, or planning is required. If a partner isn't willing to make that effort, then I'd say they're sexually incompatible, and need to decide if the relationship is still workable.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

I think one thing that would be of huge benefit is to "keep things simple and natural" before the marriage. No "audition sex" (which, is bait-and-switch). Keeping things "simple and natural", when it wasn't "simple and natural" prior to the marriage, will cause very bad problems. "audition sex" is unsustainable.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

I guess the concept of sex needing to be "natural" is completely foreign to me...WHAT does that mean...? 
Do those spouses REALLY believe that sex should only happen when BOTH partners feel "in the mood" at the same time?? I doubt that...I think it's more likely that low-drive partners mainly use it as an excuse to refuse sex...which I believe is cruel and selfish.

To me, "natural" means my partner can touch and kiss me and I GET in the mood, because even if I don't feel turned on to want him in that moment, I always WANT him. THAT is natural!!
If that feeling isn't there, then like @FeministInPink said in another thread, it's a symptom of something else being wrong.

And as an FYI for you, OP -- I just started reading the book you mentioned on another thread, that I asked you about earlier - "Sexual Intelligence" - and it's VERY good so far!!! I'm finding it VERY enlightening about some of my own issues...UGH!! Lol!


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

TJW said:


> I think one thing that would be of huge benefit is to "keep things simple and natural" before the marriage. No "audition sex" (which, is bait-and-switch). Keeping things "simple and natural", when it wasn't "simple and natural" prior to the marriage, will cause very bad problems. "audition sex" is unsustainable.


What does "audition sex" mean...??


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

It's the practice of pretending to be "in to" someone in order to get him/her to the altar. Then, once the marriage happens, the truth gets revealed, that he/she has married someone who is never going to meet their emotional needs through sex.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

As I recall, your wife enjoys spontaneous sex and quickies whereas you don't enjoy quickies because you like to plan and build the excitement because you enjoy the anticipation. You've seen how difficult this can be with kids home all of the time amid Covid. 

It seems it is you who are putting up roadblocks to more sex because of your preferences. Stop making so much work out of sex and obsessing about it. You've turned it into a chore for your wife.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

TJW said:


> It's the practice of pretending to be "in to" someone in order to get him/her to the altar. Then, once the marriage happens, the truth gets revealed, that he/she has married someone who is never going to meet their emotional needs through sex.


Yeah, that must be awful...


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

TJW said:


> It's the practice of pretending to be "in to" someone in order to get him/her to the altar. Then, once the marriage happens, the truth gets revealed, that he/she has married someone who is never going to meet their emotional needs through sex.


My ex did that. It took me far too long to figure it all out, but eventually I booed her off the stage and gave her bad reviews.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> As I recall, your wife enjoys spontaneous sex and quickies whereas you don't enjoy quickies because you like to plan and build the excitement because you enjoy the anticipation. You've seen how difficult this can be with kids home all of the time amid Covid.
> 
> It seems it is you who are putting up roadblocks to more sex because of your preferences. Stop making so much work out of sex and obsessing about it. You've turned it into a chore for your wife.


Fair enough. You make a pretty good point.

So this is an illustration of someone with a higher level of desire that does not like things to be kept too simple. I agree that anticipation is part of what I enjoy which might require scheduling and commitment. Then as you say, things might tend to turn into a chore for my wife.


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

TJW said:


> It's the practice of pretending to be "in to" someone in order to get him/her to the altar. Then, once the marriage happens, the truth gets revealed, that he/she has married someone who is never going to meet their emotional needs through sex.


Or performs sex acts or positions or kinks they actually detest but do it because they don’t want to be dumped prior to the alter. Basically acts like a porn star while dating and after the wedding, drops the facade.


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

badsanta said:


> How can keeping things simple and natural help solve sexual problems in a marriage?
> 
> How can keeping things simple and natural actually cause sexual problems in a marriage?
> 
> ...


You will never “solve” this as it is a dichotomy to be managed. Most men’s natural state is “yes” to sex. Women usually have more emotional inertia to deal with and just don’t think about it as often due to lower testosterone so the natural state is “I’m actually processing 10 other things right now” and is coupled to a decision-tree once an overture for sex is proffered. “Kid status? Did I shave? I just changed the sheets? Am I on my period? Do I feel bloated? What else is on my to-do list? Did he take out the trash like I asked? I just took a shower? Do I need to take a shower? I didn’t decide what I’m making for dinner.”


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

aaarghdub said:


> You will never “solve” this as it is a dichotomy to be managed. Most men’s natural state is “yes” to sex. Women usually have more emotional inertia to deal with and just don’t think about it as often due to lower testosterone so the natural state is “I’m actually processing 10 other things right now” and is coupled to a decision-tree once an overture for sex is proffered. “Kid status? Did I shave? I just changed the sheets? Am I on my period? Do I feel bloated? What else is on my to-do list? Did he take out the trash like I asked? I just took a shower? Do I need to take a shower? I didn’t decide what I’m making for dinner.”
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Lolol!!! Ok, I don't know if you meant this to be somewhat funny, but your list of "decision-tree" questions made me laugh out loud over here!!! And that's because even though I have a HIGH drive, I actually DO go through all those questions (and more! Lol!) when sex becomes a possiblity...and I find it really funny to see them listed in a post like this...!!! Lol!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

*How can keeping things simple and natural help solve sexual problems in a marriage?*

I am going to try and appreciate both points of view and start by sharing my thoughts on how just keeping things simple and natural can actually solve problems:

There is this notion that if you try too hard to make something fun, at some point having fun will become impossible. Kind of like insisting that it is really important for someone to try to enjoy a birthday present before they have a chance to even open it. So trying too hard can actually ruin the moment. 
Sexuality seems to thrive on the notion that people have to embrace their imperfections and be emotionally strong enough to allow things to fail from time to time. This is natural. Perhaps some people might insist on trying to avoid failure in ways that are just unnatural. For example one spouse may struggle to climax and then proceeds to try every trick in the book to make it happen for themselves or the other to no avail. 
Sometimes there are unnatural ways to make sex too easily climatic like using a vibrator. This may make one person feel as though the other did not want to invest the time and emotionally energy needed to make the same thing happen naturally. As in hurry up and orgasm so that you can be done and I get my turn. 
If one person struggles with performance anxiety of low self esteem, the notion that something is unnatural may serve to validate one person's fears of not being good enough.

So those are my thoughts on how keeping things natural can actually help. I'll gather my thoughts on how keeping things natural can actually cause problems and share those soon. This has been a process that has been helpful to me. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## JustTheWife (Nov 1, 2017)

I'm not 100% sure what "natural sex" is supposed to mean but I am kind of picturing you both spontaneously looking each other in the eyes with the same thought on your minds. Then you embrace each other leading to sex.

To me it sounds like an idealized view of sex. It's like in the movies. For many or most it might be truly considered the ideal. But life usually doesn't happen that way. Taken to extreme, it can not just be about having sex itself but also about each act within the sex. Each element of it just organically arises. Again...nice vision.

I am thinking that the ideal of "natural sex" is something like the idealized version of sex where you both have orgasms at the same time. 

Chasing an idealized version of sexual relationship for a couple is likely to end up in constant frustration. And in most of the animal kingdom it doesn't really work like that so i'm not sure now "natural" it really is.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

JustTheWife said:


> I'm not 100% sure what "natural sex" is supposed to mean but I am kind of picturing you both spontaneously looking each other in the eyes with the same thought on your minds. Then you embrace each other leading to sex.


To describe natural in terms of what my wife would desire would be the like the notion of asking a magician to perform tricks without the use of any props what so ever. 

(wait a minute, let me see, is that coconut oil on your hand?)


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

badsanta said:


> To describe natural in terms of what my wife would desire would be the like the notion of asking a magician to perform tricks without the use of any props what so ever.
> 
> (wait a minute, let me see, is that coconut oil on your hand?)


Lolol!!!!!!


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

TJW said:


> It's the practice of pretending to be "in to" someone in order to get him/her to the altar. Then, once the marriage happens, the truth gets revealed, that he/she has married someone who is never going to meet their emotional needs through sex.





LisaDiane said:


> Yeah, that must be awful...


I know from experience that it IS awful. My XH did this to me.

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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

FeministInPink said:


> I know from experience that it IS awful. My XH did this to me.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


How hurtful and UNFAIR...I'm happy that it's in your past now...!


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> How hurtful and UNFAIR...I'm happy that it's in your past now...!


Me, too!

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## Satisfied Mind (Jan 29, 2019)

If your sexual compatibility with your partner is high and your situation in life is good (health, kids, stress, etc.), sex probably feels pretty "natural" most of the time. The less compatibility or the more life interruptions you're dealing with, the more you'll have to work at it, and the less natural it will feel. 

All else being equal, I believe that the more work a couple puts into aspects of the relationship like communication and emotional intimacy, the less work a couple will have to put into the sexual side of their relationship and the more natural it will feel most of the time. The fundamental sexual compatibility or life issues are still there, but both partners are approaching that gap with better connection, trust, empathy and expectations.

And sometimes, an encounter straight up won't feel natural for one or both partners, and can still be good. With my wife and I, maybe we forced it because travel and the kids kept us apart for much too long and we were feeling out of sync and we needed to kickstart things. Or maybe I did something in the bedroom that doesn't feel "natural" to me, but I know my wife is really into (or visa versa).

I think when "natural" versus "unnatural" becomes an excuse to not invest sexually in one's partner, it's a problem. I also think when "natural" versus "unnatural" is something that either or both partners start overthinking, it's probably a symptom of a deeper issue begging to be resolved.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I thought this thread would cover everything I wanted to discuss about the myth of spontaneous or natural sex. Unfortunately the defenders seem to be continuously circling back to some theoretical state of bliss where this actually happens. This kind of thinking actually damages relationships through false expectations. Leading people to strive for what is very very rare if it even exists. 

I'd like to invite the members of the forum to participate in a thought experiment. The first part of the experiment is memory. Think back to your teen dating years. What things did you do to catch the attention of potential partners. Did you wear make up? Spend a lot of time on your hair? Join clubs or student organizations? Shop for interesting or trendy clothing?
Next think about preparing for a date. Did you wash your car? Take extra time on Grooming? Check out good restaurants, movies or other entertainment? Did you go over you plans with a friend? Do you think your friends and dating partners did similar things?
No move forward in your memory. Think about your honeymoon. This was the sexual peak of your relationship. How much time did you put into planning it. Did you discuss together where you would like to go? The things you would like to do and see? Did you spare any reasonable expense to please your partner?

Ok now that you have reviewed the past. Think about this question: if at the most hormone charged time of your life, and if at the most in love time of your life, you put a lot of effort into planning for sex, . . . Why would you expect it to "just happen" now that all of that has faded? 

Now that you have passed the fantasy level and have begun thinking rationally, Is there some sublime state of marriage where good sex happens without effort on someone's part? If you are not the person putting in that effort then it is plain to see who is.


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## Satisfied Mind (Jan 29, 2019)

Mr. Nail, I agree with your ultimate conclusion, but the comparison with younger years really falls apart at least in my case. I don't like that comparison because, for many of us, it sets a trap of false expectations, and it's not just because we're mis-remembering or underestimating how much effort we put in when we were younger. A couple of examples:

In my 20's, I was in a train wreck of a "relationship" where we were little more than f*** buddies, but our chemistry was off the charts and the fact that we didn't really care much about each other beyond sex meant we worked very little at trying to impress each other or do anything for the other beyond showing up ready to go. Rather than diminishing our sexual relationship, it was like throwing lighter fluid on a fire because it meant we had no inhibitions or barriers.

In the years of dating my wife (and early years of our marriage) and in the long-term relationships I was in before that, I did not put in much work aside from the special occasions you mention (first date, honeymoon, etc.). I never understood turning dating into a big production and if that was required, the relationship never would have happened in the first place. Even so, sex was pretty spontaneous most of the time.

That said, per my post above, I still agree with you that putting in the effort and having the right expectations is a must because good chemistry by itself isn't enough when life happens. Since we married, my wife's health has been a hormone-wrecking rollercoaster ride, we had a couple of kids, and my career has been incredibly stressful, among other things. Sometimes sex still feels spontaneous and natural like when we were younger, but most of the time it takes more effort now, and that's okay because it's still great and we're worth it.


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

Mr. Nail said:


> Now that you have passed the fantasy level and have begun thinking rationally, Is there some sublime state of marriage where good sex happens without effort on someone's part? If you are not the person putting in that effort then it is plain to see who is.


Effort required is in direct proportion to barriers erected and then where it is on both partners minds. Fewer barriers and a joint sex positive mindset leads to more natural occurring sex. Once a partner moves it from the “natural passion” pile to the “take it or leave it” pile it doesn’t happen naturally.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Satisfied Mind said:


> If your sexual compatibility with your partner is high and your situation in life is good (health, kids, stress, etc.), sex probably feels pretty "natural" most of the time. The less compatibility or the more life interruptions you're dealing with, the more you'll have to work at it, and the less natural it will feel.
> 
> All else being equal, I believe that the more work a couple puts into aspects of the relationship like communication and emotional intimacy, the less work a couple will have to put into the sexual side of their relationship and the more natural it will feel most of the time. The fundamental sexual compatibility or life issues are still there, but both partners are approaching that gap with better connection, trust, empathy and expectations.
> 
> ...


This is a very good post! Thanks as that give me more to think about.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> I thought this thread would cover everything I wanted to discuss about the myth of spontaneous or natural sex. Unfortunately the defenders seem to be continuously circling back to some theoretical state of bliss where this actually happens. This kind of thinking actually damages relationships through false expectations. Leading people to strive for what is very very rare if it even exists.


I am someone that see both sides of this argument, and I am putting together my thoughts on why keeping things natural can actually cause problems as opposed to solely defending the idea of keeping thing natural. 

Sometimes things actually do just happen naturally in my marriage. Perhaps it is a lazy morning with no other family in the house that day. But those days rarely happen and if I had to depend on that I would be in a virtually sexless marriage with a wife that never seems to lift a finger to help make things happen. Like you say, I have to put in that work.

If there are two aspects that takes a lot of work, it is the notion of what it takes to create an opportunity. Then the second part is being willing for that opportunity to be rejected without allowing yourself to be too hurt about it. Those things seem incredibly unnatural, but someone has to do it. 

Badsanta


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I'm appreciating both positive and negative feedback. 
Here is a concise thought on the subject. The position of "if it's not natural and spontaneous, I'm not interested" is not sex positive. It is in fact just another barrier.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> I'm appreciating both positive and negative feedback.
> Here is a concise thought on the subject. The position of "if it's not natural and spontaneous, I'm not interested" is not sex positive. It is in fact just another barrier.


Exactly and at some point just keeping things "natural" only serves to enable someone to keep those barriers in place. 

Generally speaking intimacy is about removing barriers and allowing yourself to be close to someone. The process by which an emotional barrier is removed is often unpleasant and uncomfortable. 

However it can also be said that someone can't just force an emotional barrier out of the way. It should be removed naturally and comfortably. Thus creating somewhat of a comfort-closeness paradox so to speak.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

badsanta said:


> I've been enjoying a few books here recently that get into the challenging topic about one spouse insisting that sex should just occur naturally. This tends to be a requirement from a spouse with the lower libido that rarely initiates. The spouse with a more active libido will struggle with this requirement and may question as to why his/her advances are rejected when things are done without all the extra effort (normally required for the other spouse to actually be receptive).


If ones sexual advances are always or for the most part frequently being rejected by ones spouse, it ought to be pretty clear that the one refusing doesn't want to have sex with the one being rejected.

Of which it is far better to believe them and accept they don't want to have sex with the generic you, and to go and find other people to have sex with. Instead of twisting oneself into a pretzel interminably for years on end, trying to fix something that the other partner doesn't want fixed.



> I can see both sides of this argument as my wife insists that things just be simple and natural. And she is right that when things just happen naturally it is indeed great. Yet keeping things natural can also be the cited as the source of almost all our problems. I have some opinions that I am working through and want to better develop on this topic, but first want to hear some different perspectives from those here at TAM.


What is natural sex? I mean a lot of sex is learned behaviour. So it's natural to want sex yet what we do and don't do can vary significantly between people.

Is natural sex a religiously acceptable practice? Given that some religions consider some sexual practices to be unnatural sex.

What does your wife mean by wanting things to be simple and natural?

Is this an issue of props, does your wife have issues with manufactured devices like vibrators and the like?

Or is it that she doesn't want the whole box and dice of mood lighting, candles, carefully chosen music playlist, hors d'oeuvres and other refreshments, visual aids, moisture absorbing throws and other paraphernalia, with a set schedule. And simply would prefer it if you spontaneously just told her to put your **** in her mouth, before you bend her over to lift her skirt and pull her panties aside without all the drama?



> How can keeping things simple and natural help solve sexual problems in a marriage?
> 
> How can keeping things simple and natural actually cause sexual problems in a marriage?


A lot of sexual problems rest outside of the sex itself, with resentment being a big one, so if you can fix what's wrong outside of sex you have a better chance at fixing the sex.

Yet if the actual sex itself is a problem, then sexual compatibility as a catch all. For shared sexual preferences, sexual capacity, sexual skills and the ability to bring pleasure. Are issues that are not likely to be resolved satisfactorily, except by finding sexual partners who wants to have sex with you and enjoys the sex you share. Since if someone isn't enjoying sex with their partner, it is perfectly reasonable and rational to avoid having sex with them.



> One example of things NOT being natural would be scheduling sex to occur *regardless of being able to get in the mood or not*.


Which sounds like a great recipe for a flaccid penis and or a dry vagina.

Seriously if someone can't get in the mood for sex, how can pressing on with scheduled sex be a good idea. Since if someone can't get in the mood, it reads like the perfect way to make sex not fun and to make it feel like a chore. Which is hardly a great way to generate more sexual desire if that is what one is hoping for.

Now of course if those involved can get in the mood when they weren't, scheduling sex can work just fine. Yet to suggest that it be done regardless of getting in the mood, seems to be a fools errand writ large.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

aaarghdub said:


> Or performs sex acts or positions or kinks they actually detest but do it because they don’t want to be dumped prior to the alter. Basically acts like a porn star while dating and after the wedding, drops the facade.


Which is natures way of telling someone to dump their lame spouse and start having sex with other people.

That said I've been married twice so far and the porn star sex never ended after the wedding until I dumped/separated from my ex-wife in the first instance. And it's still going plus plus, with plenty more in the second instance with my wife 21+ years later.

So I have no doubt that those kind of thing happens, yet there would also be many instances where that doesn't happen at all as well.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

badsanta said:


> To describe natural in terms of what my wife would desire would be the like the notion of asking a magician to perform tricks without the use of any props what so ever.
> 
> (wait a minute, let me see, is that coconut oil on your hand?)


Well the solution to that is to have sex with her in the kitchen, or wherever the coconut oil is stored. So it's just random natural happenstance that it is handy.

Or you could get her more sexually excited so that she is less dry or isn't dry, before penetration. Or failing that just spit and drool on to her pink bits and your stuff as well (just make sure you're sufficiently hydrated).


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

badsanta said:


> Generally speaking intimacy is about removing barriers and allowing yourself to be close to someone. The process by which an emotional barrier is removed is often unpleasant and uncomfortable.


Do you subscribe to the idea that a great marital relationship is hard work?

The reason why I ask is because this idea that becoming intimate can be unpleasant and uncomfortable seems alien to me. Since being intimate (both emotionally and physically) with my sexual partners. From today going backwards has for the most part been a pleasure. In fact with my most significant sexual partners it kind of feels like coming home to be with them. So it wasn't confronting, uncomfortable, or awkward.

It was like we wanted to be so intertwined in our intimate experiences together, that it felt like I was almost them and they felt like they were almost me. There is a level of emotional intimacy and a level of animal longing.

I still enjoy that with my wife, when we're kissing and having sex. We still feel that electric tingle and air that feels thick like butter at times when we look at each other. Then there's the little things, like if my penis is in my wife's anus and sometimes it feel like I feel like I am her inside. It's hard to describe, yet there is a level of empathy plus emotional and physical connection that makes it deeply satisfying.

For me great sexual relationships feel easier to have, than the ones that ought to be abandoned.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

JustTheWife said:


> I'm not 100% sure what "natural sex" is supposed to mean but I am kind of picturing you both spontaneously looking each other in the eyes with the same thought on your minds. Then you embrace each other leading to sex.


I often have that with my wife, although it tends to be followed with kissing each other (instead of embracing) which leads to sex.



> I am thinking that the ideal of "natural sex" is something like the idealized version of sex where you both have orgasms at the same time.


My wife and I sometimes orgasm at the same time during penis in vagina sex, which feels great yet we certainly don't always want to go there. Since my wife or I often want to prolong the process to the first orgasm. Or she can't help but let go before me or after just as I do the same.

That said orgasming at exactly the same time seldom happens by accident. Since it requires me to be attuned to her build up to orgasm, so I can work up to matching her tipping point at the same time. Sometimes I can feel it through my penis yet it isn't always sensitive enough. So a finger in her rectum at the same time, while working her with my penis in her vagina. Lets me tell when she is well on her way to orgasm, when the tipping point happens, then tells me the duration through the rectal pulsing and throbbing of her orgasm as it works through her till it ebbs away.

Yet I certainly don't think having that is an idealised version of sex, it's just one of the many things that we can enjoy when sharing sex.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> I'd like to invite the members of the forum to participate in a thought experiment. The first part of the experiment is memory. Think back to your teen dating years. What things did you do to catch the attention of potential partners. Did you wear make up? Spend a lot of time on your hair? Join clubs or student organizations? Shop for interesting or trendy clothing?


During my teen dating years all I did to catch the attention of potential partners was to smile at them followed by talking to them.

Sure when I could afford it I did buy nice clothes, yet I got them because I liked them and wanted to wear them, I wasn't thinking if I wear this I will attract someone as a consequence.

On hair I got the same results with a shaved head that I got when I was an Army Recruit at 17 as I did with any other haircut.

It was always enough to just smile and then start talking, nothing more was required. I mean you just turn up at a party or at a nightclub, smile and talk. Then shortly afterwards I was often kissing them and sex often quickly followed on the same night as well.



> Next think about preparing for a date. Did you wash your car? Take extra time on Grooming? Check out good restaurants, movies or other entertainment? Did you go over you plans with a friend? Do you think your friends and dating partners did similar things?


As a teenager I didn't own a car and couldn't drive one either. Sure I'd do my hair when I had hair that wasn't shaved off, yet doing my hair when it wasn't shaved off was my default state dating or not.

I also certainly didn't discuss date plans with my friends, what's to discuss? I just went on dates after I was already having sex with my dating partner.

Since for the most part hooking up first was the norm at least among my friends where I lived, which was sometimes followed by dating afterwards with an enormous amount of sex being had moving forward.

One thing for sure sex required no planning or effort, at a party, you could go for a walk and then start having sex. Or you could have sex in a room with the person you were having sex with or in a room with mates while under a blanket, or even sex with more than one friend collectively. Or you could go to a park and have sex there, have sex at each others houses or friends places. Planning went as far as buying some condoms, or making sure you pull out if she wasn't on the pill.

You'd just start kissing followed by more after talking and she or you would ask do you want to have sex? it was all pretty lustful and spontaneous and dare I say it seemed "natural" to me.



> No move forward in your memory. Think about your honeymoon. This was the sexual peak of your relationship. How much time did you put into planning it. Did you discuss together where you would like to go? The things you would like to do and see? Did you spare any reasonable expense to please your partner?


As to my honeymoon with my wife over 21 years ago when she was still 28 and I was still 27, I would hardly say that was the peak of our sexual relationship. Of which we'd already been sharing lots of plentiful sex together for close to 3 years by the time we got married. Since despite our sex life being awesome back then, it has continued to evolve and improve along the way after that. To the point that there are plenty of things that we have subsequently added to our shared repertoire, that we weren't sharing together back then.

On planning our honeymoon sure we discussed it and found a trip to a tropical island within our budget. Then we then went to a travel agent and booked our holiday and that was the end of planning it. And of course we spared expenses where we could.

Yet planing our honeymoon was incidental to our already vibrant and rich sex life. We were just going on another holiday, like we had done together before on a number of occasions. With sex being something that we just always did plentifully from our third date onward holiday or not.

That said the ease of sex with my wife in our first few years through to now, was the same kind of ease in sex with other women before her including my ex-wife.



> Ok now that you have reviewed the past. Think about this question: if at the most hormone charged time of your life, and if at the most in love time of your life, you put a lot of effort into planning for sex, . . . Why would you expect it to "just happen" now that all of that has faded?


In my experience sex has never required any effort or planning for it to happen often and enthusiastically. That said it doesn't "just happen" in the sense that no one does anything.

So it starts with kissing and fondling or my wife or I asking "do you want to have sex", or "do you want to ****". Or alternatively it happens when my wife or I tell each other what we are going to do to the other or what we want them to do.

Yet none of that needs to be an effort to do and have for people who want to share sex together.



> Now that you have passed the fantasy level and have begun thinking rationally, Is there some sublime state of marriage where good sex happens without effort on someone's part? If you are not the person putting in that effort then it is plain to see who is.


I don't know if it's sublime, yet we do share lots of fun and it doesn't feel like it's an effort to do.

On Monday I went for a drive with my wife, to go look at some mountains Where at one lookout I told my wife to put my **** in her mouth, while we were hidden from any view and she immediately obliged.

At another lookout since there was no one around and we had a good view of the long road in, I opened the back of our SUV and asked my wife if she wanted me to **** her. She then thought about it gave me a wry smile and said yes. So I did that with her bent over the back, while remarking that she is such a harlot these days.

Then after that we drove home and after my wife had some coffee and asked our 19 year old son how his day was. We retired to our bedroom and had sex again before coming out again a bit over an hour later. We also had sex a few times on the weekend, plus we had plenty more sex earlier in the weak as well.

Yet none of that sex was scheduled or planned. We both initiate, we both flirt and kiss lots, we both enjoy the sex we share, we both orgasm frequently. And we mix up what we do, not as an effort thing, just simply because we enjoy doing different things and would find it boring if we always did things the same way.

We don't schedule either (although scheduling is fine to do), especially since we don't know what we are going to be doing often day to day, as a consequence of work and having a child who is in and out of hospital.

So some days we don't share any sex at all and some days we have sex a few times in one day. Sometimes we go for a few days without and sometimes do it daily for a good while. At times we have quickies and at other times we have much longer sessions. Sometimes we chat for a long time before we do it, and sometimes we just have each other with no words and it is just animal lust.

And all of that is with us both working full time, having a child with a terrible illness (and sometimes feeling guilty about having fun in the face of that), all while with my wife is a cancer survivor as well.

Yet it all boils down to we still enjoy sharing sex together, like/love each other and communicate well enough to resolve problems together as we encounter them.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

The rest of us don't live in that world.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Sure some of the rest of us may not live in that world, yet it certainly isn't everybody.

Maybe it's mostly down to the difference between being with sexually compatible partners versus being with incompatible sexual partners. Find ones that are sexually compatible have better experiences and results. Instead of settling for incompatible ones and having poorer experiences and results.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Personal said:


> *Do you subscribe to the idea that a great marital relationship is hard work?*
> 
> The reason why I ask is because this idea that becoming intimate can be unpleasant and uncomfortable seems alien to me. Since being intimate (both emotionally and physically) with my sexual partners. From today going backwards has for the most part been a pleasure. In fact with my most significant sexual partners it kind of feels like coming home to be with them. So it wasn't confronting, uncomfortable, or awkward.


*Yes and No.*

Overall I think things need to feel natural with mutual attraction and chemistry. I would describe my marriage as having that. However I am not perfect and neither is my wife which creates challenges for us at times. I am not one to shut down and run away when something get challenging. I have discovered that facing those challenges is the key to unlocking thermo nuclear powered sex for which all other intimacy pales in comparison. 

If there were a sexual Richter scale for sex in my opinion:

 1 = having recreational sex as a teenager driven by hormones
 3 = having sex with a spouse in the context of creating a life together
 5 = make up sex after overcoming a mild challenge in marriage
 9 = sex with a spouse after 20 years and having overcome almost impossible challenges together in life (because life in general is going to get messy)

I imagine everyone is different, but this is what intimacy looks like to me as I reflect back on everything. An interesting side effect is that the idea of having sex with someone new for recreational purposes seems rather unappetizing at this point. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Personal said:


> Sure some of the rest of us may not live in that world, yet it certainly isn't everybody.
> 
> Maybe it's mostly down to the difference between being with sexually compatible partners versus being with incompatible sexual partners. Find ones that are sexually compatible have better experiences and results. Instead of settling for incompatible ones and having poorer experiences and results.


I reckon it comes down to how much of an "Artist" you are.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

*Why keeping things natural may cause sexual problems?*

At the end of the day no matter how good your relationship is, life will get messy and as a couple you will face challenges. Also one of the more profound dynamics about sexual intimacy is the ability to bring meaning to it, and over time that meaning will drastically have to change. Here are some examples and these lists are by no means complete. 

The different meanings of sexual intimacy outside of marriage:

To validate yourself as a sexual person
For recreation
To avoid the fear of being unwanted
To escape from emotional pain
To discover one's sexual orientation
To compare yourself to others
To rebound from a breakup
To determine what one wants for a spouse by comparing lovers


The different meanings of sexual intimacy within a marriage:

To learn about each other and share new experiences
To have fun and to avoid boredom
To relieve sexual tension (hormones)
To make a spouse happy
To validate the relationship
To have children and create a family
To feel emotionally close to your spouse
To maintain a marriage
To enjoy punishing a spouse for his/her shortcomings
To enjoy being punished for your own self development
To overcome emotional challenges
To learn to love yourself as you age
To share emotional closeness in a way that creates mutual pleasure

So if you compare the meanings of sexual intimacy early in a marriage to the meanings later in life, one has to go through a process to experience them and learn. You start out with a focus on having fun, later to have a family, then to maintain the marriage, and later to spur emotional development and efforts to help each other overcome self doubt. 

Transitioning from one meaning to learn the next can feel about as natural as having your wisdom teeth removed. Yet it just needs to happen. Perhaps some people want to avoid discomfort and enable each other to escape from self development by keeping things “natural.” In this case sex is likely done and will not happen anymore once someone has a hysterectomy, because it is painful to confront the fact that a marriage is no longer fertile. How do you want someone that is no longer able to have children a woman might ask herself? Well you have to let go, start all over emotionally and relearn why sexual intimacy is enjoyable. 

Perhaps the most unnatural thing in marriage is to create mutual sexual pleasure during a moment when things are emotionally unsettling and arousal feels impossible. That however in my opinion is the birthplace of allowing yourself to be close to a spouse. The process might feel like being in a survival situation and trying to start a fire during a downpour without matches. With patience you can discover that with *teamwork* almost anything is possible. This is perhaps why therapist like the idea of scheduled sex. Not because it is going to be pleasurable, but more because it is a skill building process. Scheduling sex can also help reveal challenges that need to be overcome in order for the marriage to strengthen. 

So if given a choice everyone should ask themselves the following. Would you rather have a spouse that can take an extended period of time when you are not feeling close to:

overcome that challenge to help you feel emotionally connected and loved
avoid discomfort and just allow time to pass until things hopefully return to natural 

Perhaps this is why some of us in marriage desire sex when there are problems and perhaps use it as a measuring stick to see how the relationship is doing. Instinctively if there are problems, it is more often than not that sexual intimacy is the place where these issues will surface and can be confronted. The challenge is to do that in a loving way. More than likely it will get uncomfortable before you come out on the other side much stronger and closer. In order to get there one has to lean into the discomfort or what some might say feels unnatural. 

Badsanta


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

badsanta said:


> *Why keeping things natural may cause sexual problems?*
> 
> At the end of the day no matter how good your relationship is, life will get messy and as a couple you will face challenges. Also one of the more profound dynamics about sexual intimacy is the ability to bring meaning to it, and over time that meaning will drastically have to change. Here are some examples and these lists are by no means complete.
> 
> ...


I am REALLY enjoying your observations on this topic!!!! They are very challenging and I'm not always sure if I agree with them (but isn't that the point?), so they make me think more deeply about this than I normally would...THANK YOU for posting them!!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> I am REALLY enjoying your observations on this topic!!!! They are very challenging and I'm not always sure if I agree with them (but isn't that the point?), so they make me think more deeply about this than I normally would...THANK YOU for posting them!!


I have also enjoyed reading what others here on TAM have posted throughout the years. Seeing things from different perspectives and discussing topics has helped me a lot.

Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> As I recall, your wife enjoys spontaneous sex and quickies whereas you don't enjoy quickies because you like to plan and build the excitement because you enjoy the anticipation. You've seen how difficult this can be with kids home all of the time amid Covid.
> 
> It seems it is you who are putting up roadblocks to more sex because of your preferences. Stop making so much work out of sex and obsessing about it. You've turned it into a chore for your wife.


So I have been trying to embrace being more spontaneous and perhaps enjoy some quickies here and there. In the process I am learning that my wife enjoys it because it is about getting it over and done so that she doesn't have to worry about me bothering her (or perhaps her feeling that I am getting frustrated waiting for her). Afterwards she might smile and joke, "OK I'm done at least for another week now!" 

So interestingly just "keeping things natural" and spontaneous with a quickie... for the first time she complained that me doing that doesn't really gives her a chance to get aroused. We stopped and talked about things. It was rather revealing. 

In this case keeping things natural helped a topic of conversation that needed to happen come to the surface.

Badsanta


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

badsanta said:


> my wife enjoys it because it is about getting it over and done so that she doesn't have to worry about me bothering her (or perhaps her feeling that I am getting frustrated waiting for her).


Urghh. Sorry, man, what a bummer.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> Urghh. Sorry, man, what a bummer.


Well I do need to at least be aware that because of our historical issues that she still has a tendency to feel perpetually pressured for more sex.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

badsanta said:


> *Why keeping things natural may cause sexual problems?*
> 
> At the end of the day no matter how good your relationship is, life will get messy and as a couple you will face challenges. Also one of the more profound dynamics about sexual intimacy is the ability to bring meaning to it, and over time that meaning will drastically have to change. Here are some examples and these lists are by no means complete.


Why do you have a desire to ascribe special meaning to sex?

For some of us sex really isn't a profound experience and we don't have any need to find special meaning in it or a desire to ascribe meaning to it.



> The different meanings of sexual intimacy outside of marriage:
> 
> To validate yourself as a sexual person
> For recreation
> ...


I have enjoyed a tremendous amount of sex outside of marriage with different women, Including two that I ended up marrying. Of which premarital sex, extramarital sex and post divorce sex all feels pretty much the same to me.

As to your list I have never had sex for validation, or to avoid the fear of being unwanted. I certainly never had sex to escape emotional pain or to discover my sexual orientation.

Just as I never had sex to compare myself with others, I mean seriously why should I care about how I am compared to others?

Sex was also never for a rebound or to determine what I wanted in a spouse.

If I felt that my sex life outside of marriage had those meanings, I would seriously be wondering what was wrong with me and questioning how I could be so broken.

One thing on your list certainly does apply, and that thing is recreation. Since sharing sex can be a tremendous pleasure in the doing inside or outside of marriage.

At the end of the day though, I simply can't relate to your meanings list.



> The different meanings of sexual intimacy within a marriage:
> 
> To learn about each other and share new experiences
> To have fun and to avoid boredom
> ...


On sex in marriage I can certainly relate to some of those things, as reasons instead of meanings. Of which in my experience, they also apply to sex outside of marriage just the same as well.

So your first three bullet points on learning about each other, sharing new experiences , having fun, avoiding boredom and relieving sexual tension apply in marriage just as it does outside of it.

Making a spouse happy also applies in and outside of marriage. Yet it is just as important as making oneself happy and enjoying oneself as well.

I also think the idea that sex is about validation is a ridiculous reason to be having sex.

Having children is certainly an inherent risk of having sex,

I concur that it can contribute to feeling emotional closeness, since it is sharing a pleasurable activity that is as physically intimate as it can get. Yet some of us don't feel there is any profound meaning that is inherent in such activity.

That said I do think that sex is for the most part, important to maintaining a marriage. Yet I don't think that it is a meaning in itself. Just as some people think that sex is or isn't important or necessary to a marriage.

I don't understand the idea that it is about punishing ones spouse, that seems silly to me.

I also don't think it is about overcoming emotional challenges or learning to love oneself either. It's just sex... No, really, sex is just sex. That's all it is!

As to your last point, I think you have it backwards. It's the sharing of mutual pleasure that can help create emotional closeness. All of which applies outside of marriage as well.



> So if you compare the meanings of sexual intimacy early in a marriage to the meanings later in life, one has to go through a process to experience them and learn. You start out with a focus on having fun, later to have a family, then to maintain the marriage, and later to spur emotional development and efforts to help each other overcome self doubt.


You do know that sharing sex can be a lot of fun?

That's why I frequently share lots of sex with my wife. That said I really don't know why one needs to focus on fun to have it. Sex can simply feel good in the doing, without it always needing to be difficult to share.



> Transitioning from one meaning to learn the next can feel about as natural as having your wisdom teeth removed. Yet it just needs to happen. Perhaps some people want to avoid discomfort and enable each other to escape from self development by keeping things “natural.”


Kumbaya!

Transitioning from one meaning to another meaning (is that some some sort of Deepak Chopra deepity?), doesn't need to happen at all.

It is possible for a married couple to enjoy a tremendously close, rich, loving, frequent and wonderfully varied shared sex life throughout their marriage, without having to imbibe such woo. And I know this because my wife and I, have had all of that for decades without having to contemplate our navels and the meaning of woo to the nth degree.

Seriously sex can really be fun to share, with someone who mutually wants to share sex with you. The End.

Perhaps sex might work better for more people, if sexually incompatible couples stopped trying to plug round holes with square pegs.



> In this case sex is likely done and will not happen anymore once someone has a hysterectomy, because it is painful to confront the fact that a marriage is no longer fertile. How do you want someone that is no longer able to have children a woman might ask herself? Well you have to let go, start all over emotionally and relearn why sexual intimacy is enjoyable.


For some of us not being able to have more children, can sometimes be good news.



> Perhaps the most unnatural thing in marriage is to create mutual sexual pleasure during a moment when things are emotionally unsettling and arousal feels impossible. That however in my opinion is the birthplace of allowing yourself to be close to a spouse. The process might feel like being in a survival situation and trying to start a fire during a downpour without matches. With patience you can discover that with *teamwork* almost anything is possible. This is perhaps why therapist like the idea of scheduled sex. Not because it is going to be pleasurable, but more because it is a skill building process. Scheduling sex can also help reveal challenges that need to be overcome in order for the marriage to strengthen.


You know scheduling sex can be a good idea for people who get lost doing other things and forget to take the time to share the fun that can be had during sex.

Yet scheduling sex isn't going to make sex better or more desirable, if one or more marital partners don't enjoy sex with there partner/s or have no desire to have sex with them.

Of which I have some experience of sharing sex, when things are what you call emotionally unsettling. From that experience I have found that scheduling sex can be a fools errand, since some roller coaster rides don't stop at the right place and right time to enable scheduled sex to happen.

In my marriage our rollercoaster ride at it's worst, has been going non-stop for 2-3 years so far.

To the point that we don't know when we're going to have to call the police and start looking, because our daughter has run away again. We also don't know when she is going to be admitted to hospital again because her organs are failing, just as we don't know when she is going to be released because she is stable enough to come home. Constant meetings and calls with her treating medical team, visits to see her in hospital. Discharges from hospital that we now measure in 3-4 days at best.

Plus much more that is draining and often painfully horrifying to us, all while we both still successfully hold down full time careers and see to the needs of our eldest child. Then there was the cancer as well, that my wife now survives, which saw her get two lumpectomies and radiation treatment, which quite frankly from my perspective as a carer and hers as a cancer survivor, cancer was nothing compared to our travails with our terribly afflicted daughter.

So we don't schedule sex, since we would never get to do it if we did. Yet we still manage to share sex quite frequently whenever we find the time and place to have at it. And the reason (no meaning) we still do it often, is because we enjoy how sex feels and that shared enjoyment is one of our few pleasures that we still get to do. Plus given that it is one of our few pleasures, it has become a sanctuary for us in the sharing. Although we ascribe no special meaning to it and feel it has no special meaning.

At the end of the day we still go there, because we still enjoy sharing sex together. While still wanting to have sex with each other, in part because we are not trying to fit square pegs into round holes.



> So if given a choice everyone should ask themselves the following. Would you rather have a spouse that can take an extended period of time when you are not feeling close to:
> 
> overcome that challenge to help you feel emotionally connected and loved
> avoid discomfort and just allow time to pass until things hopefully return to natural
> Perhaps this is why some of us in marriage desire sex when there are problems and perhaps use it as a measuring stick to see how the relationship is doing. Instinctively if there are problems, it is more often than not that sexual intimacy is the place where these issues will surface and can be confronted. The challenge is to do that in a loving way. More than likely it will get uncomfortable before you come out on the other side much stronger and closer. In order to get there one has to lean into the discomfort or what some might say feels unnatural.


Square pegs and round holes.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

badsanta said:


> Well I do need to at least be aware that because of our historical issues that she still has a tendency to feel perpetually pressured for more sex.


At what point will you decide to stop barking up the wrong tree?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I absolutely agree with everything that @Personal said! There's one thing where I may shade things differently, and that's "Sex was also never ... to determine what I wanted in a spouse." Sex was important to gauge how sexually compatible we were and - hopefully - would continue to be. I already knew what I wanted (from being denied so often and so long by my ex, and my own nature), I just needed to determine if the woman I was dating met my standards.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Personal said:


> I have enjoyed a tremendous amount of sex outside of marriage with different women, Including two that I ended up marrying. Of which premarital sex, extramarital sex and post divorce sex all feels pretty much the same to me.


Are you serious? So the first time with someone and break-up sex felt the same?


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

@badsanta what is break-up sex?

Is it a specific thing that people do, as in they break up and then agree to have sex to break-up?

If it is that, I have no experience of having sex with someone as a break-up activity. Since I have never had sex sex with a woman as part of breaking up with them.

That said I have had sex with two women after ending those relationships. One was with my ex-wife, after we first broke up as boyfriend/girlfriend and were doing a FWBs thing before the term was around. Plus a couple of instances after she cheated on me and she offered herself to me after we separated. Then with the other woman, we started dating again a few years after our first time of being together.

To answer your question though, yes sex feels pretty similar as a thing. Whether it is at the beginning of a sexual relationship, part way through it or at the end. Plus the same applies with casual sex as well.

Sex really is just sex.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

badsanta said:


> I've been enjoying a few books here recently that get into the challenging topic about one spouse insisting that sex should just occur naturally. This tends to be a requirement from a spouse with the lower libido that rarely initiates. The spouse with a more active libido will struggle with this requirement and may question as to why his/her advances are rejected when things are done without all the extra effort (normally required for the other spouse to actually be receptive).
> 
> I can see both sides of this argument as my wife insists that things just be simple and natural. And she is right that when things just happen naturally it is indeed great. Yet keeping things natural can also be the cited as the source of almost all our problems. I have some opinions that I am working through and want to better develop on this topic, but first want to hear some different perspectives from those here at TAM.
> 
> ...


I guess we have always done It the natural way. Thus, our problem. He just never in the mood. I’ve stopped asking. 
I suggested, twice a week just make time to play. Kiss. Be together. If anything happens great, if not... that’s okay. We had some intimate time. He has ED issues, which I’ve always been very understanding about. But ya, natural sucks haha


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Mary L said:


> I guess we have always done It the natural way. Thus, our problem.


Given the following, natural sex isn't your problem.



Mary L said:


> I have so many issues in my marriage, but I think this is the largest one.
> My husband has never had a huge sex drive. Even in his 20's, once or twice a week was fine.





Mary L said:


> I started logging in my calendar any time he is flirty, romantic, initiates sex (I simply won't anymore. It hurts too much to always be pushed aside)
> *In the last year we have went on zero dates. Which isn't new. He's never, ever "dated" me. (I have also asked for this for about 10 years)
> *In the last year he has flirted with me zero times, again... not really new
> *In the last year we have been intimate in bed, without sex, zero times... not new, but I have asked for this numerous times!
> *In the last year we have had sex 5 times. twice didn't work out too well, which is fine!


Your husband just doesn't want to have sex with you.

This isn't about sex being natural, this about wanting to fit a square peg into a round hole.

The question you ought to consider is how long are you going to settle for less, and how long are you going to pretend that the problem is an issue of sex being natural?

At the end of the day if you ever move forward. I encourage you to try to remember that whenever someone shows you who they are, you ought to believe them.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

Personal said:


> Given the following, natural sex isn't your problem.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Haha. Ouch. Well, ya there’s that. 
I am hoping to find some answers, I just won’t give up. 
Ya natural nor planned works. That’s sadly obvious. 
Who he is, I know, I just can’t give up.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

The only thing Mary needs to learn from this thread is that her relationship is one where the lazy partner expects the interested partner to do all of the work. Lazy lovers think that natural just happens. But the truth is that the interested partner works hard to sustain the illusion of natural.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

100%!!


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> The only thing Mary needs to learn from this thread is that her relationship is one where the lazy partner expects the interested partner to do all of the work. Lazy lovers think that natural just happens. But the truth is that the interested partner works hard to sustain the illusion of natural.


Excellent point. Someday, Mary may want to retire or at least change jobs. Then what?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Personal said:


> Sex really is just sex.


OK another question... Is sex any different if the partner you are with experiences difficulties with her arousal. As in she decides she has no interest, but is willing to take care of you versus a partner that is very aroused and wanting you. 

For sure those two things feel different for you?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Mary L said:


> I guess we have always done It the natural way. Thus, our problem. He just never in the mood. I’ve stopped asking.
> I suggested, twice a week just make time to play. Kiss. Be together. If anything happens great, if not... that’s okay. We had some intimate time. He has ED issues, which I’ve always been very understanding about. But ya, natural sucks haha


Question for you. Women in your situation sometimes discover their husband masturbates often. This is an example that his sexual response may be functioning very well, just not in your presence (which is often the result of anxiety about him feeling too much pressure to please you). 

If this is the case, has he ever allowed you to observe him masturbating?


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

badsanta said:


> Question for you. Women in your situation sometimes discover their husband masturbates often. This is an example that his sexual response may be functioning very well, just not in your presence (which is often the result of anxiety about him feeling too much pressure to please you).
> 
> If this is the case, has he ever allowed you to observe him masturbating?


As crazy as it sounds, I wish that were the case. 
just living life at the level he does is almost over whelming. 
I don’t know if it’s ADD, depression?? We have look into things, but he wont see anyone. He thinks everything’s okay. And in a lot of ways, it is! 
He just doesn’t have a sex drive. I can tease. I’ve bought toys. I mean he says he likes sex, me... but it’s like he’s just doesn’t have the “umph” per say.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

badsanta said:


> OK another question... Is sex any different if the partner you are with experiences difficulties with her arousal. As in she decides she has no interest, but is willing to take care of you versus a partner that is very aroused and wanting you.
> 
> For sure those two things feel different for you?


I have no idea since I haven't been with any women that have had difficulties with arousal. Likewise I don't have sex with women who aren't sexually aroused, or don't want to have sex with me.

Why on earth would you want to have sex with a woman who isn't sexually aroused?

Why on earth would you want to have sex with someone who is just offering charity sex?

Why on earth would you want to have sex with someone, who makes it clear that they mostly or always don't want to have sex with you?

If she has no interest, do not have sex with her.

If there is no sexual arousal, then don't have sex with her.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Mary L said:


> As crazy as it sounds, I wish that were the case.
> just living life at the level he does is almost over whelming.
> I don’t know if it’s ADD, depression?? We have look into things, but he wont see anyone. He thinks everything’s okay. And in a lot of ways, it is!
> He just doesn’t have a sex drive. I can tease. I’ve bought toys. I mean he says he likes sex, me... but it’s like he’s just doesn’t have the “umph” per say.


That sounds rather frustrating. Especially if he is unwilling to go see and talk to a therapist/doctor about it. That is an indication that he is actively avoiding having to deal with something. 

In my marriage when my wife has experienced issues related to feeling as if she had zero libido, she has always been willing to talk about that with her doctor or at a marriage retreat with the church. Sometimes just being able to talk comfortably about things helps. But when you are dealing with someone that refuses to do that, yes, it is frustrating. 

So obviously just keeping it natural in your marriage only serves to enable your husband to avoid confrontation with whatever issue he might be struggling with. So what can you do to make things uncomfortable for him with regards to this topic that might be a bit unnatural? Here are a few thoughts some of which is perhaps some bad advice:

Schedule a therapist for the two of you and go with or without him. If he refuses to go let him know that he is choosing not to participate in a marriage with you. Let him know that he is choosing to disappoint you simply by not being present to at least to listen. Even if you go to therapy alone, you'll probably get some good advice to help with some new coping skills. 
Ask for a huge budget to buy sex toys for yourself and use them without him! Perhaps bluff him on this one as well to make him think it is going to get super expensive. 
Buy your husband some libido supplements at the grocery store. Just out of curiosity to see if he would be willing to take them or to see if he gets angry. If he is willing to take them, that is at least a good sign. If he gets angry that is a sign that he needs to deal with something that he is unwilling to talk about. 
Watch some porn with him and awkwardly choose some with alternate sexual orientations. See if he reacts to any differently. Getting upset counts as a reaction that might help you stumble onto an issue that makes him feel vulnerable. Getting upset or showing anger is often the mask of one's vulnerability. 

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

badsanta said:


> So obviously just keeping it natural in your marriage only serves to enable your husband to avoid confrontation with whatever issue he might be struggling with. So what can you do to make things uncomfortable for him with regards to this topic that might be a bit unnatural? Here are a few thoughts some of which is perhaps some bad advice:


Meanwhile let's go on a fools errand, by pretending that the issue is that sex is natural. While ignoring the colossal elephant in @Mary L's bedroom, in the guise of a husband who doesn't want to have sex with her.



> Schedule a therapist for the two of you and go with or without him. If he refuses to go let him know that he is choosing not to participate in a marriage with you. Let him know that he is choosing to disappoint you simply by not being present to at least to listen. Even if you go to therapy alone, you'll probably get some good advice to help with some new coping skills.


Or you could stop barking up the wrong tree interminably to no end. And start having sex with someone who wants to have sex with you



> Ask for a huge budget to buy sex toys for yourself and use them without him! Perhaps bluff him on this one as well to make him think it is going to get super expensive.


Or you could stop barking up the wrong tree interminably to no end. And start having sex with someone who wants to have sex with you



> Buy your husband some libido supplements at the grocery store. Just out of curiosity to see if he would be willing to take them or to see if he gets angry. If he is willing to take them, that is at least a good sign. If he gets angry that is a sign that he needs to deal with something that he is unwilling to talk about.


Or you could stop barking up the wrong tree interminably to no end. And start having sex with someone who wants to have sex with you



> Watch some porn with him and awkwardly choose some with alternate sexual orientations. See if he reacts to any differently. Getting upset counts as a reaction that might help you stumble onto an issue that makes him feel vulnerable. Getting upset or showing anger is often the mask of one's vulnerability.


I think by now you ought to be able to figure out what to do next.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Personal said:


> > OK another question... Is sex any different if the partner you are with experiences difficulties with her arousal. As in she decides she has no interest, but is willing to take care of you versus a partner that is very aroused and wanting you.
> >
> > For sure those two things feel different for you?
> 
> ...


OK so there is "meaning" to the reason you have sex with women. They MUST desire you sexually or else you will reject them. 

Do you not see what is happening there? You want to be wanted! You need to be needed! If you can't have that emotionally, then sex is NOT going to happen!


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

badsanta said:


> OK so there is "meaning" to the reason you have sex with women. They MUST desire you sexually or else you will reject them.


No there isn't any meaning in it.

Just as I don't ascribe any meaning to going to the toilet, scratching an itch, or any other biological function.

Be born, survive to a point if you can, do different things if you can, enjoy things if you can, have sex if you can, reproduce if it happens, then die sooner or later, the end.

The reason why I want to have sex with women, is simply because I find it can feel good to have sex with them. It really isn't more complicated than that.

There is no they must desire me at all either. I honestly don't care about that. So I don't have sex for ego kibbles.

To reiterate I have sex because it feels good. I have lots of sex because I am good at it, and choose sexual partners who want to share sex with me quite frequently.

"Likewise I don't have sex with women who aren't sexually aroused, or don't want to have sex with me."

To explain further I have absolutely no qualms at all in sharing sex with someone who doesn't desire me sexually. Just as long as they are consenting/wanting (because consent matters) to have sex with me. Plus they (as do I) also need to be sexually aroused as well, since sex is more fun that way (things fit better) and it reduces the risk of genital injury for all involved.

At the end of the day it seems like you live on a different planet to me. Since you continue to press on to little end, having a sexual relationship with someone who often doesn't want to have sex with you. While I have always enjoyed ongoing sexual relationship with people, who frequently want to have sex with me.

That said I do find it ironic that you're trying to tell me how sex works. When you struggle to get what you want, while I continue to enjoy a tremendous smorgasbord of plentiful sex.



> Do you not see what is happening there? You want to be wanted! You need to be needed! If you can't have that emotionally, then sex is NOT going to happen!


Oh please...

I don't need to be needed or care if people want me in order to enjoy sex with someone.

I have enjoyed sex with women who I have been completely indifferent to emotionally, because they consented (wanted to have sex with me) and were sexually aroused. Yet I really couldn't care less if they wanted me or felt they needed me.

I've also had sex with women that I was attracted to (who consented and were aroused), yet dumped them immediately after sex. Since I didn't see any value in wasting time on any emotional investment when the sex was wanting.

I've even had sex with a woman who I despised and hated at the time (my ex-wife during our separation), because she wanted me to have sex with her, was good at it and she was sexually aroused.

Yet with all of the sex that I have had with different women, from one night stands, random hookups at parties or in pubs/clubs, dates and short term through long term relationships, plus two marriages. Sex still remains nothing more than a physical activity that can be splendid to share, since sharing sexual arousal and orgasms with someone can be lots of fun.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

@Personal is simply one of those rare birds whose brain makes no connection between emotion and sex. It's unusual, but people like him DO exist... and no amount of talking will convince him otherwise, because you can't talk someone into feeling what they can't feel.

@Personal I'm curious, are you anywhere on the autism/asbergers spectrum? Your understanding of sex--and dissociating it from emotion--is very similar to the way some people on the spectrum view sex.

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

FeministInPink said:


> @Personal is simply one of those rare birds whose brain makes no connection between emotion and sex. It's unusual, but people like him DO exist... and no amount of talking will convince him otherwise, because you can't talk someone into feeling what they can't feel.


I can and do feel emotional connections as a consequence of sharing sex. Yet that emotional connection is generated by the sharing of mutual experience and the pleasure of sex, Rather than sex being an emotional thing in itself.

Yet I find that this equally applies to any other emotional bonding, in that it is the sharing of the activity and having the shared experience of feeling pleasure, fear, happiness, sadness etc that actually creates the bond. With the emotional bond itself, not actually being generated by the standalone activity, or any other standalone component of an experience.

Emotional bonding to me, is more than sex.



> @Personal I'm curious, are you anywhere on the autism/asbergers spectrum? Your understanding of sex--and dissociating it from emotion--is very similar to the way some people on the spectrum view sex.


Not as far as I am aware.

Although I have a teenage daughter who was diagnosed as having high functioning Asperger's/Autism over a year ago. Albeit that has recently been overturned for the moment, following being formally tested. That said her treatment team and my wife and I still think she is, since that testing has trouble catching some girls.

So given that plus the trouble that I had growing up while being tested repeatedly as highly gifted, I suppose it is possible I might be somewhere on that spectrum.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Personal said:


> "Likewise *I don't have sex with women who aren't sexually aroused,* or don't want to have sex with me."
> 
> To explain further I have absolutely no qualms at all in sharing sex with someone who doesn't desire me sexually. Just as long as they are consenting/wanting (because consent matters) to have sex with me. Plus *they (as do I) also need to be sexually aroused* as well, since sex is more fun that way (things fit better) and it reduces the risk of genital injury for all involved.


It sounds as if you are good at identifying women that are already aroused and capable of using whoever happens to be available for sex. Because it feels good.

I imagine if you were really into a woman and she told you she was not in the mood but willing to offer you pitty sex if you had to have it, that you would not be capable of getting her aroused? You would not be capable of taking a moment like that and thirty minutes later be giving her multiple orgasms and her begging you not to stop?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

FeministInPink said:


> @Personal is simply one of those rare birds whose brain makes no connection between emotion and sex. It's unusual, but people like him DO exist... and no amount of talking will convince him otherwise, because you can't talk someone into feeling what they can't feel.


I would say something in this thread has triggered his negative emotions about sex when it might be start out feeling unnatural or difficult to initiate. The tools to overcome that would require a bit more emotional maturity (or at least his ability to suppress his emotions).

In my opinion I think someone on the spectrum lacking emotional-sexual empathy would likely have little concern (or be incapable of determining) if a partner was actually aroused or not as long as there is consent. 

My wife thinks I have autism. I have a career that involves brokering large deals, and I do have a tendency to care less about hardships I can cause people as long as I get what I want. I am good at looking at a situation in terms of the pure mechanics needed to manipulate things in my favor. It makes me fairly successful at my career compared to those that try to negotiate based on emotions. 

Do those attributes spill over into my sexuality? I think it does. I wanted a wife that is extremely intelligent and motivated with her career (that also compliments mine) because I know that will make for a successful family. She admits that she likes using me for my brain because I am good at what I do and helping her. She admits that I am a good husband because I encourage us to enjoy a good sex life together that she did not realize that she would enjoy it as much as she does.

I guess I know how to get what I want? When I tell my wife I love her because she is so intelligent, that honestly tends to work out pretty well for us. 

Badsanta


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

badsanta said:


> It sounds as if you are good at identifying women that are already aroused and capable of using whoever happens to be available for sex. Because it feels good.
> 
> I imagine if you were really into a woman and she told you she was not in the mood but willing to offer you pitty sex if you had to have it, that you would not be capable of getting her aroused? You would not be capable of taking a moment like that and thirty minutes later be giving her multiple orgasms and her begging you not to stop?


Do you see any irony in men who have wives that often don't want to have sex with them, usually carrying on about multiple orgasms and women begging them not to stop?

Do you know what women feel like through your penis inside their vagina, through the build up, tipping point, landing and recession of their orgasm?

Do you know what women feel like through your penis inside their anus, through the build up, tipping point, landing and recession of their orgasm?

Do you know what women feel like through you're fingers inside their rectum, through the build up, tipping point, landing and recession of their orgasm with your penis inside their vagina?

Do you know what women feel like when you have your fingers inside their vagina, through the build up, tipping point, landing and recession of their orgasm when receiving oral sex?

Do you know what women feel like when you have your fingers inside their rectum, through the build up, tipping point, landing and recession of their orgasm while receiving oral sex?

Do you know that orgasm feel stronger in women through their rectal walls, versus their vaginal walls by tactile feel and measured amplitude?


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

badsanta said:


> I would say something in this thread has triggered his negative emotions about sex when it might be start out feeling unnatural or difficult to initiate.


What negative emotions?

I love sex.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

badsanta said:


> I imagine if you were really into a woman *and she told you she was not in the mood* but willing to offer you pitty sex if you had to have it, that you would not be capable of getting her aroused? You would not be capable of taking a moment like that and thirty minutes later be giving her multiple orgasms and her begging you not to stop?


Arousal is easy.

I just finished having a quickie with my wife about thirty minutes before this post.

I asked her "if she was ready?" and she told me "she was ready for sleep". So I pulled my penis out of my jeans and showed her, and she said "I'm not interested in that". So I said "you know you want to" and she said "my ankle hurts". So I said "you don't need your ankle, to put it in your mouth". She then put it in her mouth for a little bit and stopped. So I waved it at her again and she asked "do you want more?", so I said "of course". Which she followed with more oral sex for a while, before stopping, so we then started kissing and then kissing more, and more again.

Then she said "my pyjamas are in the way", so I said "yes they are" then she told me "my eye hurts" and I said "yes it does" followed by more kissing. She then took off her pyjamas, so I took off my jeans and we kept kissing as she lay back on the bed. I then entered her vagina with my penis and we kept kissing lustfully and continuously through, till she was extremely close to orgasm. And I then started chewing on her left nipple after that, up through part of her orgasm. Followed by holding off for a bit on our penetrative sex, as she went through her orgasm (since she gets sensitive down there). Before carrying on a bit more and letting go inside her, without making it a long drawn out thing.

We then kissed again, she put her pyjamas on, I then tucked her in. And am now back in my office, ostensibly to do some work that I need to get done.

There was also absolutely no multiples or any begging either. 

That said it's been a fairly slow weekend for us here, we did it once on Friday, once on Saturday and we shared this quickie on Sunday. So how is your weekend of sex going?


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

badsanta said:


> That sounds rather frustrating. Especially if he is unwilling to go see and talk to a therapist/doctor about it. That is an indication that he is actively avoiding having to deal with something.
> 
> In my marriage when my wife has experienced issues related to feeling as if she had zero libido, she has always been willing to talk about that with her doctor or at a marriage retreat with the church. Sometimes just being able to talk comfortably about things helps. But when you are dealing with someone that refuses to do that, yes, it is frustrating.
> 
> ...


Thank you , and its all great advice, some may not be for us. 

Whenever I mention therapist, he's all for it. Well, years ago, no. He use to say that he wasn't going to let someone get inside his head and confuse him... But now, he see's there is some kind of issues, (he hasn't said this, but I know thinks it at some level) even if he feels the issue is with me over reacting and causing problems. 
I wish I knew a great way to explain this guy. I do have co-dependent tendencies, but this isn't it. He really is a great guy. He has never *****ed about laundry needing done. I take care of finances, because he just can't. If he is in charge and we have money in the bank, and he needs something... he buys it. But he's completely okay with me taking care of bills and budgeting the house, including him. And for the most part, follows the budget. It wasn't always that way! 
He won't clean the house, but if I say "hey babe, I can't get to those dishes, do you mind? He will do them. He may leave a pan, sink with food from draining the water, washrag in the bottom of the sink, and he doesn't wipe things off. But he will do it happily, but if I get to asking too much, then he may say "just leave them, they will bother tomorrow" If I push then he just get frustrated. 
I can go out with friends, get drinks, coffee and leave him to make his own dinner, He doesn't care. If I didnt get to his wash, he will toss it in. I normally stay on top of things, but maybe I have been sick or just an extra heavy schedule. He is very easy going in many ways. But I also think this is apart o the problem. It would take effort to get upset, you know? 
But back to the therapy. He says he's okay to go, but to actually make that happen? His schedule is too busy, etc. There is always an excuse, So I scheduled me to begin, then covid happened. They are small and aren't doing appointments via video. I'm not sure why.
I need to call someone else, but damn! Some of these guys are so pricey. Then how do you know if they are good? Here in a small town it was easy! There wasn't many to choose from and it was easy to get a good idea who is a fit. lol
Toys. I would have a hard time using toys solo. This is one area I know I still need to work on. I am not sure I can use them, and especially letting hubby know. I don't mind WITH him, its different. But its something to think about  
He does take natural supplements. He even read up on them on his own, and has tried different ones/combos. When I found out he had done this, I was a but surprised. Now had I researched and told him"take this" would be a normal scenario. But he took that on. 
At first, it seemed to help. But that was short lived. A couple months maybe? 
He still takes the supplements, but I don't see it helping as much. 
He went to the dr about 4 years ago (We are pretty natural people and don't go to the dr often) and had his testosterone tested. They said it was within a normal range. I don't see how! I want him to go back and have another physical anyhow. He went about 2 years ago but the dr didn't see a reason to retake the testosterone test. *rolling my eyes!! 
Porn, thats not our thing. We are christians, maybe not very good ones, haha, but it wouldn't feel right. To be honest, I have thought about it though.

I think the biggest helps going to be therapy. Right now he just thinks, "hey! this is where we are at. Hopefully it won't always be like this. I love you. We have a great life. Its what it is, and its only an issue if you make it an issue." He doesn't have a lot of friends, neither of us do. He just won't talk sex with friends. 
Its just deeper than not having sex.
He doesn't see, and at one time I didn't either, that we have always had a problem. He has always been great at ignoring it, a ned I have been great at stuffing it because I thought I was the problem.
Sorry for such a long response!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Personal said:


> So how is your weekend of sex going?


Well my wife got home from the gynecologist yesterday and told me she can't have sex for the next two weeks, so I sent her to the dentist for a second opinion.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Mary L said:


> ....I think the biggest helps going to be therapy....


Thanks for sharing! No problem with the long response. If it has been years since going to the doctor, he should go once he is able. At a minimum you should check his blood pressure every so often to make sure he is not allowing problems to go unchecked. 

One therapist we went to was recommended by our family doctor. That one didn't work out too well at the time due to cost, but looking back it was helpful. 

Seems like your husband is willing to try, so at least you might have a chance for things to improve. It is also important to keep realistic expectations of making a few steps forward and then a few steps back every time. 

In the meantime until you find a therapist, you might find reading books on how to healing sexuality and relationships to be helpful. Here are a few suggestions:


Passionate Marriage: Keeping Love and Intimacy Alive in Committed Relationships
Intimacy & Desire: Awaken the Passion in Your Relationship
No More Mr. Nice Guy (This book is written for men, but the same concepts might apply.)
Mating in Captivity: Unlocking Erotic Intelligence
 and The power of vulnerability is a great video in general to watch about the power of vulnerability. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

badsanta said:


> That sounds rather frustrating. Especially if he is unwilling to go see and talk to a therapist/doctor about it. That is an indication that he is actively avoiding having to deal with something.
> 
> In my marriage when my wife has experienced issues related to feeling as if she had zero libido, she has always been willing to talk about that with her doctor or at a marriage retreat with the church. Sometimes just being able to talk comfortably about things helps. But when you are dealing with someone that refuses to do that, yes, it is frustrating.
> 
> ...


I thought I had responded to this??
My hubby has been home this weekend, so I wasn't online much at all. Its a rare thing for him to be home on both Saturday and Sunday 
As things are opening back, due to covid, I am hoping I can get in. We are in a small town and have group of counselors that have been highly recommended. They just don't to teleconferencing for some reason? Too small maybe?
It was a huge step a few years go when I and my husband bought toys. We used them a couple times and a month ago I finally tossed them all. It was a painful memory for me to state at that little ol' tub full of fun. It was a very embarrassing and difficult thing to do, buying and playing with them. That was all new to me and I can be a little, backwards? Idk if that is the right word. But I thought it would bring him round, you know? But it didn't. I am not sure if I can use toys myself, without him. Its not about the sex. I want to be intimate with him. I want him to desire me when he sees me.
We sat on our couch all weekend watching movies. It was the first time in a long time we ave just spend down time, together. Our teen son worked most of the weekend. I could clearly see by noon Saturday, that this was going to be a BFF weekend. I tried to flirt a bit, rubbed his leg with my foot. I made some sexy, dirty comments. Nothing. Zip, zilch, nada! Again. So I opened a bottle of wine, yes at noon! And proceeded to drink every drop!
He would never watch porn, and honestly its not my thing either. I can see that it could help, like a teacher! haha but ya, its not for us.
"Getting upset or showing anger is often the mask of one's vulnerability." I think this is what hubby does when he just feel inadequate. Its easier to get angry or frustrated and make me the problem, I don't think he even knows what he does!


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

Personal said:


> Meanwhile let's go on a fools errand, by pretending that the issue is that sex is natural. While ignoring the colossal elephant in @Mary L's bedroom, in the guise of a husband who doesn't want to have sex with her.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I joined this forum to try and glean some help. I hear what you are saying, but I do love this man very much. I'm not ready to throw in the towel!  Yes,I feel alone. Yes, I feel hurt. yes, I don't understand,. But that is why I am here. 
He has worked every Saturday for months. Covid didn't affect our business. He took this past Saturday off. He chose spending time with over work. Now, there wasn't a drop of sex, but that's a first! He always chooses work first. So I am going to take that as a suggest win and hope! 
I'm no prize. Im not perfect either. I just want a healthy marriage and I cant give up yet. 
I know you're trying to help. I want this to work.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Mary L said:


> I thought I had responded to this??
> My hubby has been home this weekend, so I wasn't online much at all. Its a rare thing for him to be home on both Saturday and Sunday
> As things are opening back, due to covid, I am hoping I can get in. We are in a small town and have group of counselors that have been highly recommended. They just don't to teleconferencing for some reason? Too small maybe?
> It was a huge step a few years go when I and my husband bought toys. We used them a couple times and a month ago I finally tossed them all. It was a painful memory for me to state at that little ol' tub full of fun. It was a very embarrassing and difficult thing to do, buying and playing with them. That was all new to me and I can be a little, backwards? Idk if that is the right word. But I thought it would bring him round, you know? But it didn't. I am not sure if I can use toys myself, without him. Its not about the sex. I want to be intimate with him. I want him to desire me when he sees me.
> ...


What are you going to do if you have to accept that fact that he is just NOT into sex at all - and it probably has nothing to do with YOU, it's just that he has become asexual, and will never want sex with you. He clearly likes your companionship, and your life together...but if nothing you have done (supplements, doctor's tests, toys, hints, discussions) over all the years has worked to bring him to a place of wanting to have sex, I just don't see him suddenly discovering a sex drive going forward, even more into middle/late years.

Maybe it's time for you to move on from Discovery Mode and into, Acceptance Mode...? 
He has clearly shown you over the years how he feels about sex...YOU are the only one looking for a "solution", because HE is perfectly happy with your sex life, his only problem is most likely that he wishes you would be happy with it too.

I know it's painful and scary to accept something that you want SO much, but once you face that fear and reality, you will be free to find solutions to THAT issue - living in a sexless marriage - instead of wasting time looking for solutions to something that isn't going to change.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> What are you going to do if you have to accept that fact that he is just NOT into sex at all - and it probably has nothing to do with YOU, it's just that he has become asexual, and will never want sex with you. He clearly likes your companionship, and your life together...but if nothing you have done (supplements, doctor's tests, toys, hints, discussions) over all the years has worked to bring him to a place of wanting to have sex, I just don't see him suddenly discovering a sex drive going forward, even more into middle/late years.
> 
> Maybe it's time for you to move on from Discovery Mode and into, Acceptance Mode...?
> He has clearly shown you over the years how he feels about sex...YOU are the only one looking for a "solution", because HE is perfectly happy with your sex life, his only problem is most likely that he wishes you would be happy with it too.
> ...


Everything you've said is true. 
I think the acceptance mode is where I am headed. Its scary and honestly, pisses me off. Maybe I have to go though those emotions? idk. I am done fighting and pushing. I know that. 
I watched him sleeping last night, and thought..."its over, our sex life is over" and it may be. 
I thought about the asexual. It would explain a lot. 
And you're right, he is happy with our sex life. He understands it hurts me to not have that with him, but he feels he can't do anything differently.
And yes, its very painful to accept this is how life will be with him. I desire to me wanted, needed and loved in a way that.. I just want things to be different, and I am sadly realizing that's most likely not going to happen.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Mary L said:


> Everything you've said is true.
> I think the acceptance mode is where I am headed. Its scary and honestly, pisses me off. Maybe I have to go though those emotions? idk. I am done fighting and pushing. I know that.
> I watched him sleeping last night, and thought..."its over, our sex life is over" and it may be.
> I thought about the asexual. It would explain a lot.
> ...


I'm SO SORRY that you are having to go through this, Mary...I understand what you are going through and how you are feeling, I really do! But there is PEACE and new choices in acceptance, so don't be afraid to step over that line into it!!

YES, you definitely have to go through the emotions - you are dealing with deep disappointment and a sense of betrayal, and those don't just whisper on by as you settle in to your new reality. 

BE STRONG and face this head-on, NO hiding, and you will get through it. And being strong can mean that you lay in bed all day depressed if that's what it takes to restore your feelings of emotional control. 
Keep posting here, and I would recommend journaling your feelings...that has helped me SO much throughout the emotional storms of my life, especially when I don't have other people to talk to!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Mary L said:


> It was a huge step a few years go when I and my husband bought toys. We used them a couple times and a month ago *I finally tossed them all. It was a painful memory for me to state at that little ol' tub full of fun.* It was a very embarrassing and difficult thing to do, buying and playing with them. That was all new to me and I can be a little, backwards? Idk if that is the right word. But I thought it would bring him round, you know? But it didn't. I am not sure if I can use toys myself, without him. Its not about the sex. I want to be intimate with him. I want him to desire me when he sees me.


I will share with you that I too have bought toys and later thrown them away for the exact same reason. I once talked to my wife about what types of toys she might enjoy and I then invested a lot of time doing research and found a few to buy. They sat unopened in the nightstand for a month. At some point I asked my wife when would be a good moment to try them, and she just got angry with me. I distinctly remember taking the _unopened_ packages to the trash and just throwing them away. After that day, I decided that I would NOT buy her anymore toys and if she ever wants one she will have to buy it herself. 

Since that day things have improved and we might still use a toy on a rare occasion. But there is now a significant difference. If I buy an adult novelty, I now buy it only because it is something "I want" to try regardless of if she is willing to use it together or not. Anything I buy, I do so by making her aware and allowing her to ask questions or show interest if she is inclined to do so. At no time to I require her to give something a try. Surprisingly she does ask and does show interest in a novelty here and there which turns into a rather positive thing. She finally opened up and told me which novelty she really liked and was upset that the one we had broke so easily. 

So that is an example of what the process of using adult novelties might work in a relationship where there are sexual desire challenges.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> I'm SO SORRY that you are having to go through this, Mary...I understand what you are going through and how you are feeling, I really do! But there is PEACE and new choices in acceptance, so don't be afraid to step over that line into it!!
> 
> YES, you definitely have to go through the emotions - you are dealing with deep disappointment and a sense of betrayal, and those don't just whisper on by as you settle in to your new reality.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this!! I am sobbing, I think because its so real and I don't want it to be my reality and just someone validating my feelings. 
Thank you.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Mary L said:


> Everything you've said is true.
> I think the acceptance mode is where I am headed. Its scary and honestly, pisses me off. Maybe I have to go though those emotions? idk. I am done fighting and pushing. I know that.
> I watched him sleeping last night, and thought..."its over, our sex life is over" and it may be.
> I thought about the asexual. It would explain a lot.
> ...


NO!

If your husband is actually asexual, that does not mean your sex life is over. Your husband is "happy" with the sex life in your marriage which means he is capable of enjoying it. 

If you learn to love and accept him the way it is, you have to learn how to change your perspective and approach to sex in the marriage. You may need to insist on a schedule. You may need to insist that he is aware that sex is important for you and be respectful to that. You may need to realize that sex will be initiated just for you. Hopefully if you embrace that, you will begin to discover new ways your husband is able to respond to you sexually if you just allow him to be himself and discovers the joy of pleasing you and letting go of any of his anxieties.

If you can do that, it WILL be worth the effort!


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

badsanta said:


> I will share with you that I too have bought toys and later thrown them away for the exact same reason. I once talked to my wife about what types of toys she might enjoy and I then invested a lot of time doing research and found a few to buy. They sat unopened in the nightstand for a month. At some point I asked my wife when would be a good moment to try them, and she just got angry with me. I distinctly remember taking the _unopened_ packages to the trash and just throwing them away. After that day, I decided that I would NOT buy her anymore toys and if she ever wants one she will have to buy it herself.
> 
> Since that day things have improved and we might still use a toy on a rare occasion. But there is now a significant difference. If I buy an adult novelty, I now buy it only because it is something "I want" to try regardless of if she is willing to use it together or not. Anything I buy, I do so by making her aware and allowing her to ask questions or show interest if she is inclined to do so. At no time to I require her to give something a try. Surprisingly she does ask and does show interest in a novelty here and there which turns into a rather positive thing. She finally opened up and told me which novelty she really liked and was upset that the one we had broke so easily.
> 
> So that is an example of what the process of using adult novelties might work in a relationship where there are sexual desire challenges.


When we bought toys, it was also a discussion. It was much easier for my husband to engage in the conversation, he just doesn't embarrass. And given my past, I met certainly do!! But I thought guys like this stuff and maybe it will help! 
Well to be honest, I think I ended up liking it all a lot more then him. 
Which to be honest, surprised me! For various different reasons, 

I would talk to him about his lack of desire and my seemingly increased desire. Going through peri-menopause has given me some happy hormones, or I have just grown and healed to a point where I want more intimacy and see and feel the need for it. Its not been an over night growth, but I have grown, healed and I want a thriving relationship! So I suggested things he can do with me, that would make me feel more loved and satisfied. After a few years of trying to talk bout it, I got pissed. Tossed it all. Its hard for me to put myself out there, and if he can't meet me half way. **** it. Can I say that on here?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Mary L said:


> **** it. Can I say that on here?


You can always try to say that! 

Just posted a reply on your other thread!


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

badsanta said:


> NO!
> 
> If your husband is actually asexual, that does not mean your sex life is over. Your husband is "happy" with the sex life in your marriage which means he is capable of enjoying it.
> 
> ...


I think this is backward thinking, and has already been tried by her, and will only lead to disappointment. 
Because the issue isn't only low drive for him, he is happy with how things are, so he has no interest in doing more just because Mary expresses desire for more. It's not only that he is asexual, it's that he is also being selfish...which is COMMON for low-drive partners (and many people, actually, and not only about sex).


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

badsanta said:


> NO!
> 
> If your husband is actually asexual, that does not mean your sex life is over. Your husband is "happy" with the sex life in your marriage which means he is capable of enjoying it.
> 
> ...


I have honestly done each of those things, over and over!
I am a communicator. Even when tis uncomfortable. 
I have sat down with him, with nothing else going on. Explained the physical and emotional needs that goes with a sexually relationship. I have sent him articles written by people who dialog much better than me. 
I have sent him erotic memes, and dirty text messages while he's at work. I have asked for two nights a week to just snuggle, explore each other if we want, but sex doesn't have to be a factor, When twice a week didn't happen, I asked for once a week. That didn't happen either. I have talked till I cant think of a better way to approach this. I have cried and begged. More nights than not is me falling asleep crying. I am so lonely and with my husband right there! 
I have explained how hard it is to be told no over and over. Once I resolved to not ask again, we went 4.5 months with no sex. 
If he doesn't think he can get hard, thats that, for him. I have told him its not about "sex" its about being close with him, enjoying each other. I don't want sit each night on the couch, actually watching tv... each night! When Netflix and chill is always actually Netflix and chill, its a depressing! 

And damn it, I would like a little romance before I am to get into bed! Especially waiting 4.5 months! lol but for real! 
I just dont know hat else I can try. I have come at this from every direction I can. I am pretty good at reading people and I have no problem putting effort into a situation. This forum is pretty much my last ditch effort. Well, other than counseling!


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

badsanta said:


> I will share with you that I too have bought toys and later thrown them away for the exact same reason. I once talked to my wife about what types of toys she might enjoy and I then invested a lot of time doing research and found a few to buy. They sat unopened in the nightstand for a month. At some point I asked my wife when would be a good moment to try them, and she just got angry with me. I distinctly remember taking the _unopened_ packages to the trash and just throwing them away. After that day, I decided that I would NOT buy her anymore toys and if she ever wants one she will have to buy it herself.
> 
> Since that day things have improved and we might still use a toy on a rare occasion. But there is now a significant difference. If I buy an adult novelty, I now buy it only because it is something "I want" to try regardless of if she is willing to use it together or not. Anything I buy, I do so by making her aware and allowing her to ask questions or show interest if she is inclined to do so. At no time to I require her to give something a try. Surprisingly she does ask and does show interest in a novelty here and there which turns into a rather positive thing. She finally opened up and told me which novelty she really liked and was upset that the one we had broke so easily.
> 
> So that is an example of what the process of using adult novelties might work in a relationship where there are sexual desire challenges.


I guess I just cannot fathom how much effort you make to please your low-drive wife, when it sounds like she makes very little effort to meet your needs. THIS wouldn't work for me. You don't insist that she challenge herself to meet your needs, yet she insists that YOU challenge YOURSELF to meet HER needs...this is NOT equal nor a partnership.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Mary L said:


> I have honestly done each of those things, over and over!
> I am a communicator. Even when tis uncomfortable.
> I have sat down with him, with nothing else going on. Explained the physical and emotional needs that goes with a sexually relationship. I have sent him articles written by people who dialog much better than me.
> I have sent him erotic memes, and dirty text messages while he's at work. I have asked for two nights a week to just snuggle, explore each other if we want, but sex doesn't have to be a factor, When twice a week didn't happen, I asked for once a week. That didn't happen either. I have talked till I cant think of a better way to approach this. I have cried and begged. More nights than not is me falling asleep crying. I am so lonely and with my husband right there!
> ...


And THIS is why I mentioned that you might need to move into acceptance of what you are really going to get with him, because you HAVE already done SO MUCH!!! I don't think there is anything that anyone on this forum could recommend to you that you haven't already tried, and your husband remains unmoved and uninterested in meeting your needs.

The sooner that you face the reality of that, the sooner you can focus on finding solutions to THAT issue, and how to get your needs met...because you DESERVE that!!!

(((((((((HUGS)))))))))

I'm thinking of you!!!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> I guess I just cannot fathom how much effort you make to please your low-drive wife, when it sounds like she makes very little effort to meet your needs. THIS wouldn't work for me. You don't insist that she challenge herself to meet your needs, yet she insists that YOU challenge YOURSELF to meet HER needs...this is NOT equal nor a partnership.


I can look back at over decades of struggling and I can see clearly. Your perspective is one that is not correct (in my opinion) and would lead a relationship to fail. 

In my opinion the root of almost all problems in marriages is a combined issue of each having "low self esteem" that prevents each person from just being themself. That issue then sexually manifests itself in the most bizarre ways you can't even imagine. 

NO ONE has to change! The exact opposite occurs. BOTH have to learn how to love themselves and then share that with each other while feeling loved and accepted for just being themself. 

THAT is an almost freaking impossible thing to do. Because low self esteem manifests itself in so many unnatural ways, one has to confront how unnatural things have become in order to get down to the root of the problem:

Low self esteem and how to help each other improve it. 

"Our relationship is sexually incompatible" = no it is not because you are both suffering from low self esteem and that has made sex impossible because you can't just be yourself because you don't love yourself. 

"This is an HD and LD mismatch" = no it is not! It is actually perfectly balanced. Step way the f*** back and look at the big picture. The "LD Person" will actually appear to be HD in all the other aspects of life for which it is the "HD spouse" that is LD. The ways in which this is awkwardly skewed is often driven by low self esteem.

I can now see it everywhere I look.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> I think this is backward thinking, and has already been tried by her, and will only lead to disappointment.
> Because the issue isn't only low drive for him, he is happy with how things are, so he has no interest in doing more just because Mary expresses desire for more. It's not only that he is asexual, it's that he is also being selfish...which is COMMON for low-drive partners (and many people, actually, and not only about sex).


This 👆
I struggle with, is he being selfish and a jerk! or... am I too demanding and think life should be romance and heads in the clouds?

Hes very happy with how things are, I know he loves me, but I really dont think he's in love with me, like I am him. That doest really hurt my feelings, because I think he would be, if he could be. I don't think he knows how to be that connected with anyone. Even me,


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

badsanta said:


> I can look back at over decades of struggling and I can see clearly. Your perspective is one that is not correct (in my opinion) and would lead a relationship to fail.
> 
> In my opinion the root of almost all problems in marriages is a combined issue of each having "low self esteem" that prevents each person from just being themself. That issue then sexually manifests itself in the most bizarre ways you can't even imagine.
> 
> ...


As much as I respect your opinions and ways of seeing things, I think you could not be any more wrong about how that works...and I think that most of the HD/LD relationships that people have posted about on TAM alone prove your belief to not work almost EVER.

YES, that's the ideal...GREAT! But your way of seeing the issue doesn't take into account when one partner has NO interest in meeting the needs of the other partner. Are YOU getting the sex you want from your wife by behaving that way to her...?? Maybe you are getting sex you enjoy, but I don't think it really meets the needs you have sexually.

Many LD people are JUST LOW DRIVE - NOT because of self-esteem issues or any other reason than they just don't have a strong drive for sexual gratification. In fact, many people with high self-esteem don't care to meet any of the needs of their partners, because they feel like they can do what they want.

So bringing self-esteem into it is like apples and oranges to me. Maybe you can describe this better, if I'm not understanding what you meant...?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

badsanta said:


> Your perspective is one that is not correct (in my opinion) and would lead a relationship to fail.


I also wanted to add...it is MY belief that a relationship where one or both partners are not able to have their needs met SHOULD fail.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> As much as I respect your opinions and ways of seeing things, I think you could not be any more wrong about how that works...and I think that most of the HD/LD relationships that people have posted about on TAM alone prove your belief to not work almost EVER.
> 
> YES, that's the ideal...GREAT! But your way of seeing the issue doesn't take into account when one partner has NO interest in meeting the needs of the other partner. Are YOU getting the sex you want from your wife by behaving that way to her...?? Maybe you are getting sex you enjoy, but I don't think it really meets the needs you have sexually.
> 
> ...


I agree with some of this, and disagree with some. 

I do think a lot of my husbands issues are low self esteem. I know me having a low self esteem has cause a whole host of issues with me personally. I'm better than I was, but hopefully not as good as I will be! 

I think for my hubby, it is just easier not to try. I think he has low self esteem, maybe some ADD issues. and I am sure I have aided in making him feel bad about himself over the years. I am a very direct person If the flame is burning you, stop touching it, Done! 
He is more a "lets take some time to put this new thought into play".
I am a "see a need, fit a need... geter done, person. I'm very A type personality. My husband says I am an A personality and hes happy to be a B- personality. Its a difficult combo.

But there are those who will take advantage of a higher drive and not care about their partner. Even though my husband has the lower, I think he is so focused on "performing" that he doest give me enough attention. It becomes whatever it needs to be for him. Like a job. Its just not exciting. There is little to no foreplay. He can go months with little touching, I dont see romance or intimacy. Then hit the sheets because he's horny this quarter? We can be the greatest of friends, but this to me is selfish and uncaring about me.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> YES, that's the ideal...GREAT! But your way of seeing the issue doesn't take into account when one partner has NO interest in meeting the needs of the other partner. Are YOU getting the sex you want from your wife by behaving that way to her...?? Maybe you are getting sex you enjoy, but I don't think it really meets the needs you have sexually.


Can I have sex with my wife anytime I want at this point? YES

Does it meet my needs sexually? YES, YES, YES, and THEN SOME!!!!!!!!!!!

Do I meet her needs sexually? She has complimented me on pushing her over the years to not give up and that otherwise she would have really missed out on so much pleasure.

Does she now show signs of desire? YES, and she now reads books on how to understand and improve her own desire because she has learned to enjoy nurturing that. 

What was the underlying source of our issues? Low self esteem.

Why can low self esteem make someone HD? Because sex is incorrectly used as a way to validate being loved. Instead one should love themself and choose to share that with a spouse. 

Why can low self esteem make someone LD? Because this prevents a true emotional connection to be made during sex (because a this person does NOT feel comfortable being truly seen).


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

badsanta said:


> Can I have sex with my wife anytime I want at this point? YES
> 
> Does it meet my needs sexually? YES, YES, YES, and THEN SOME!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> ...


These are great responses, and I'm happy that it worked for you!!!

BUT...I still don't think that self-esteem is the main driver behind HD/LD urges. It was for YOU guys, and possibly many others! But not for most, or even many...I don't believe.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> These are great responses, and I'm happy that it worked for you!!!
> 
> BUT...I still don't think that self-esteem is the main driver behind HD/LD urges. It was for YOU guys, and possibly many others! But not for most, or even many...I don't believe.


When I read "Come as You Are" a long time ago, I wasn't at the same place I was today. Over half the book was about self esteem and how it is connected to sexuality. Now I can see it a bit more clearly. 






books — Emily Nagoski, Ph.D.







www.emilynagoski.com


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

It can be as simple as everybody brings themselves as individuals to an encounter with an SO, ready to mix together to have an open, free, and intimate time together.

Each is responsible for themselves to orgasm, using but not putting that responsibility on the their partner.

Each contribute good, loving, hot, unafraid to laugh or scream in pleasure to create the particular sexual food for both, for that encounter. 

And each sexual meal created during different intimate times is what keeps couples' appetites sated.

When many things are tried it's a given not all will work, those speed bumps are to be humored away, life goes on, the next will be better, and so forth. 

Practice and openness create a winning relationship guaranteed.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

badsanta said:


> When I read "Come as You Are" a long time ago, I wasn't at the same place I was today. Over half the book was about self esteem and how it is connected to sexuality. Now I can see it a bit more clearly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, self-esteem has nothing to do with MY high drive, nor anything to do with my husband's low drive...in fact, he has great self-esteem, and I sometimes believe that's why he doesn't care about MY needs, because he feels entitled to only having things the way HE thinks they need to be.

Self-esteem can contribute to how people express their sexuality drives, but I don't think they control them as much for most people as they did for you and your wife.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> I also wanted to add...it is MY belief that a relationship where one or both partners are not able to have their needs met SHOULD fail.


Here are some questions for you... Why are people so afraid to allow their relationships to fail? Why does that feel so unnatural? 

How can FAILURE be embraced in such a way that it helps that exact same relationship heal and become a success? 

Why does it mostly take someone building up their self confidence before they will finally allow things to fail?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> Well, *self-esteem has nothing to do with MY high drive,* nor anything to do with my husband's low drive...in fact, he has great self-esteem, and *I sometimes believe that's why he doesn't care about MY needs, because he feels entitled to only having things the way HE thinks they need to be.*
> 
> Self-esteem can contribute to how people express their sexuality drives, but I don't think they control them as much for most people as they did for you and your wife.


I *bolded*the two parts of this response where I can see clearly how your self esteem and sexuality are directly tied in a way that makes you contradict yourself. 

Why on earth would you have a High Desire sexually for someone you believe that does not care about you? Would you think that perhaps you come across as needy? Is a needy person sexually desirable in your opinion? Does a needy person generally have a high degree of self confidence?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

badsanta said:


> I *bolded*the two parts of this response where I can see clearly how your self esteem and sexuality are directly tied in a way that makes you contradict yourself.
> 
> Why on earth would you have a High Desire sexually for someone you believe that does not care about you? Would you think that perhaps you come across as needy? Is a needy person sexually desirable in your opinion? Does a needy person generally have a high degree of self confidence?


Interesting, because the truth is, I have NO drive whatsoever for him anymore...once I realized and accepted that he didn't CARE about meeting my needs at all, my desire for him EVAPORATED. I have NO interest in trying to find out what he sexual drive issues are, I don't trust him to care about me. If he came to me for sex now, the answer would be, "NOPE. I won't give you sex whenever YOU want it. Since I am not an equal partner in your sex life, and I don't trust that you actually CARE about my needs, I have NO interest in sex with you."

He MIGHT come to me for sex at some point, someday, but most likely NOT - I think he's enjoying having things go exactly how he wants them to go, and not having to consider me at all. 

So in fact, his attitude towards me has created the opposite of "NEEDY" - I don't NEED or rely on him at all sexually.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

badsanta said:


> I *bolded*the two parts of this response where I can see clearly how your self esteem and sexuality are directly tied in a way that makes you contradict yourself.
> 
> Why on earth would you have a High Desire sexually for someone you believe that does not care about you? Would you think that perhaps you come across as needy? Is a needy person sexually desirable in your opinion? Does a needy person generally have a high degree of self confidence?


I would also like to point out, that sex is NOT simply emotional for me -- my drive for sex is mostly based on a physical NEED for sexual release. I want to share it with someone in an emotional way, but my high drive is physically based - my body wants an orgasm (or several). So I have almost never expressed my sexuality in any way tied to my self-esteem. The fact that my husband doesn't want me hurts, but I know it's HIS problem, NOT mine -- we don't fit, we don't match, and he doesn't care enough to want to meet my needs for that. That's also HIS issue, from within HIM.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

badsanta said:


> Here are some questions for you... Why are people so afraid to allow their relationships to fail? Why does that feel so unnatural?
> 
> How can FAILURE be embraced in such a way that it helps that exact same relationship heal and become a success?
> 
> Why does it mostly take someone building up their self confidence before they will finally allow things to fail?


Well, I think that if people are in relationships or use them to validate themselves as people, they are personally tied to how the relationship LOOKS to others and/or to whether they are successful or not. But that isn't the only reason people are IN relationships!

Also, I think if someone is willing to walk away from a relationship where they are unsatisfied, then they have created a boundary and sent a strong message to a spouse who may have not wanted to face issues before that moment, thereby creating change that makes the relationship successful.

Are those the answers you were thinking of...?


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> Well, self-esteem has nothing to do with MY high drive, nor anything to do with my husband's low drive...in fact, he has great self-esteem, and [BOLD]I sometimes believe that's why he doesn't care about MY needs, because he feels entitled to only having things the way HE thinks they need to be.[/BOLD]
> 
> Self-esteem can contribute to how people express their sexuality drives, but I don't think they control them as much for most people as they did for you and your wife.


Self-centered, narcissistic behavior like this (bolded) is actually a symptom of low self-esteem and low self-worth. If this is the way he behaves, I doubt your assertion that he has high self-esteem. Many people with low self-esteem also mimic the behavior of those with high self-worth because they don't want others to know the "truth" about them... they carry a lot of shame. Your husband may have a big ego, but that's not the same as high self-esteem.

Obviously, I don't know your husband, but this is what I'm seeing, based on what you have written.


Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

badsanta said:


> Here are some questions for you... Why are people so afraid to allow their relationships to fail? Why does that feel so unnatural?
> 
> How can FAILURE be embraced in such a way that it helps that exact same relationship heal and become a success?
> 
> Why does it mostly take someone building up their self confidence before they will finally allow things to fail?


In my opinion, what’s been proven true for me is, the more I mature and heal, the more I am able to see my own flaws, in a non attacking way. I don’t get so frustrated or self loathing. I can see a “problem” and thinknthrough is calmer and more rationally. So I can take it from others more easily. 

Each day should be about growth. So if someone who loves me says “hey, you are too quick to give advice and it would be good to listen more.” I can take that as an attack or see the truth in it. And there are times I have looked at myself and not seen what someone else has seem. That’s okay too!!


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

FeministInPink said:


> Self-centered, narcissistic behavior like this (bolded) is actually a symptom of low self-esteem and low self-worth. If this is the way he behaves, I doubt your assertion that he has high self-esteem. Many people with low self-esteem also mimic the behavior of those with high self-worth because they don't want others to know the "truth" about them... they carry a lot of shame. Your husband may have a big ego, but that's not the same as high self-esteem.
> 
> Obviously, I don't know your husband, but this is what I'm seeing, based on what you have written.
> 
> ...


This is a great observation, and I was thinking that might be how it sounded as I was typing it (great minds think alike??  ), but he really has NO problem with self-esteem. He has some narcissistic traits, for sure, but he's not a Narcissist like my dad was - who you are absolutely correct, has major self-esteem issues, and only wanted people who were a "mirror" showing him how great he was. 

My husband is much more self-assured and I think that comes from immaturity. He cannot handle things not going his way, because he's selfish and self-centered, not because of low self-esteem. His lack of interest in sex comes from just not feeling like it, and being too selfish to care how it affects me. He actually has LOTS of self-confidence about being able to do what he wants and get what he wants...it was always something I loved about him. He takes a leader role in most every situation he is in. Right now, he feels like we shouldn't have sex, because HE doesn't "need" it...so it's MY problem if my needs don't match up to his.

My lower self-esteem keeps me from feeling like I deserve my needs to be met, and made it hard for me to set boundaries about what was acceptable sexually for me and what wasn't. If HE doesn't want me, then I don't want HIM. That's how MY lower self-esteem shows itself sexually. But that's how I react to ANY "need" I have in my relationship with him (buying something, doing something I want that he thinks is foolish, etc).


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> Also, I think if someone is willing to walk away from a relationship where they are unsatisfied, then they have created a boundary and sent a strong message to a spouse who may have not wanted to face issues before that moment, thereby creating change that makes the relationship successful.


Now that is a great answer! Can you see how it takes a lot of self esteem for someone to stand up for themselves and create that boundary? 

That process in and of itself often serves to remove barriers in a relationship while at the same time people might describe it as setting boundaries. Almost as if a paradox.

I am also about to reply to another one of your comments about HD as it has me thinking...


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

badsanta said:


> Now that is a great answer! Can you see how it takes a lot of self esteem for someone to stand up for themselves and create that boundary?
> 
> That process in and of itself often serves to remove barriers in a relationship while at the same time people might describe it as setting boundaries. Almost as if a paradox.
> 
> I am also about to reply to another one of your comments about HD as it has me thinking...


Yes, but just because things COULD go this way, doesn't mean they DO! In a perfect world, and perfect relationship, they would...


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> ...I have almost never expressed my sexuality in any way tied to my self-esteem...


followed by:



LisaDiane said:


> If HE doesn't want me, then I don't want HIM. That's how MY lower self-esteem shows itself sexually.


So you want to be wanted and you need to be needed? These are the things that _enable_ your existing self esteem to maintain the status quo.

Imagine if you had tremendous self esteem? How would your sexuality be different? How would that change the sexual dynamics in your marriage? Here are a few possibilities:

Your happiness or lack thereof would not harbor resentment towards your husband since you would come to realize that is not his responsibility. This in turn would remove some huge barriers for both of you enjoying sex together.
Sex would not be about fulfilling a need as in give and take, instead it would turn into something that is shared (you seem to kind of get that).
You might become aware that some of your sexual desires are driven by stress and used by you as a coping mechanism to sooth. While sex "feels good" in this context, it is more about the relief from stress that "feels good." That is not a good thing or bad thing, but once you are aware of it, you can actively incorporate it into your style of sexual play without making your husband guilty for stressing you out just so sex will be so freaking awesome! Or perhaps he might be into that somehow once it can be done playfully!"

I could go on and on... but this is a topic I still struggle with myself from time to time.

There is such a fine line of playing around with things that add sexual tension and make sex awesome. It can be fun one moment and then someone gets their feelings hurt the next. Like riding a bicycle and falling down. You gotta get back up and be slightly more humble.

Badsanta


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

badsanta said:


> So you want to be wanted and you need to be needed? These are the things that _enable_ your existing self esteem to maintain the status quo.
> 
> Imagine if you had tremendous self esteem? How would your sexuality be different? How would that change the sexual dynamics in your marriage? Here are a few possibilities:
> 
> Your happiness or lack thereof would not harbor resentment towards your husband since you would come to realize that is not his responsibility. This in turn would remove some huge barriers for both of you enjoying sex together.


I cannot get past this first part, because it makes me angry at you to read it, because I feel like you are REFUSING to understand what is going on with my husband...
THE ONLY BARRIER to us enjoying sex together is that when I told him that no-sex made me unhappy, he said, "I don't care. I don't feel like it."

I am not following the string you are trying to connect between my need to be desired and that changing HIS RESPONSE, which is SELF-centered. He DOES NOT CARE how I approach him. I, like Mary, tried multiple ways of talking, offering, compromising, understanding (some challenged my sense of self-esteem, some felt natural)...NOTHING mattered, NOTHING changed - when HE doesn't feel an urge to have sex with me, WE DID NOT HAVE SEX. 

My resentment is NOW, that is NEW, and it is born from his constant rejection of me and every way I have tried to meet HIS needs, only to be ignored, and it manifests in the way that I DO NOT DESIRE SEX WITH HIM ANYMORE. That is me protecting myself. The refusal is ALL HIM - my self-esteem and approach have NOT ONE THING to do with his response. He has even said No to me at times, simply because I asked before HE did...that is hateful, in my opinion.

Now I will try to read the rest of your post...Lol!


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

badsanta said:


> followed by:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok, now I can respond more evenly...Lol!!
These are all really great ideas for couples in reciprocal sexual relationships!! I'm happy that they worked for you, and/or that you have had the opportunity to work through them to some degree and enhance and deepen your sex life with your wife, and to feel more satisfied! I would LOVE to have a relationship like that - I LOVE reading ideas and philosophies about sex (and anything, even), and exploring and discussing them!!

However, people (men especially, I think) who have normal-high drives have absolutely NO understanding of low-drive men. The suggestions I have read on this site alone prove that to me...even before sex went completely away for us, I used to think, "THAT would never work!", to some of the things that normal drive men imaging would get a man's motor running when it's the wife who is frustrated. My husband's drive is tied to HIS mind, what turns HIM on, and he has NO room in there for ME. _I_ don't turn him on, I don't think - he has to feel the urge and arousal for sex first, THEN he would seek me out. And that was always fine, I was just happy to have sex!! I was open and excited about ANYTHING that excited HIM, always. 

But when the urge is GONE, or when the excitement of coming to ME after he's in the mood isn't there, then NO inducement will cause him to want me - NONE, NOTHING. I cannot state that to you clearly enough. After 17 years of dealing with him and his sex drive (so I could please him as much as possible, because I am easy to please), I KNOW what is going on with him. HE stubbornly decides how he wants to express himself sexually, and he does NOT care if I'm not part of it, even when it hurts me!! And I've never yelled or nagged...I've simply said, "that hurts me"...but he does not care. 

So while I'm very interested in all of your viewpoints, and the things you've learned, and I believe that they have really benefited YOU (and others), they DO NOT work for ALL problems, especially not mine...and I suspect they will not for @Mary L, although I HOPE I am wrong!

The only solution for ME is to have sex with someone else...Lolol!!!!
And THAT is a topic for another time/thread...


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Mary L said:


> In my opinion, what’s been proven true for me is, the more I mature and heal, the more I am able to see my own flaws, in a non attacking way. I don’t get so frustrated or self loathing. I can see a “problem” and thinknthrough is calmer and more rationally. So I can take it from others more easily.
> 
> Each day should be about growth. So if someone who loves me says “hey, you are too quick to give advice and it would be good to listen more.” I can take that as an attack or see the truth in it. And there are times I have looked at myself and not seen what someone else has seem. That’s okay too!!


My flaw is that I am often the world's worst listener. Or so my wife thinks. Often I struggle to place her thoughts into a context in a way that she has never considered. The result is that my wife is discovering that she often needs to be more patient with me in order for me to listen and fully understand what she is trying to say. 

She will say something and ask a question about my opinion. I'll think about it and reply that her question is not relevant. At this point she thinks I am not listening. Once I explain _why_ I think her question was not relevant and demonstrate a different want to look at her situation and propose a new question, she all the sudden realizes that I was indeed listening. But I admit that sometimes my mental process just takes off and prevents me from listening and I have to be patient and ask her to repeat herself (whereas before I used to pretend to be listening and fail the quiz so to speak).

That process used to get us both upset with one another, now we are better at staying calmer and helping each other listen and allow time to think through everything. Perhaps that is a flaw that I have that my mind is overactive and needs more time to listen, but at the end of the day I often have very good insight when my wife is patient enough to actually allow me listen to her.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> However, people (men especially, I think) who have normal-high drives have absolutely NO understanding of low-drive men. The suggestions I have read on this site alone prove that to me.


About a year into reading TAM, I kinda started to feel like, "this site is filled with people that all have a high drive trying to solve each other's problems only from a high drive point of view. It is like a bunch of blind people trying to lead around group of blind people that keeps stumbling into an emotional orgy all along the way!"


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> The only solution for ME is to have sex with someone else...Lolol!!!!
> And THAT is a topic for another time/thread...


You should venture into the "coping with infidelity" forum and announce that you are considering that solution for your marriage. You'll quickly get LOTS of advice.

Unfortunately you might get some extremely insightful advice that you have not yet considered. You'll learn what a "VAR" is and all that great stuff to make sure you find out everything about your husband before making any sudden decisions! 

Badsanta


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

badsanta said:


> About a year into reading TAM, I kinda started to feel like, "this site is filled with people that all have a high drive trying to solve each other's problems only from a high drive point of view. It is like a bunch of blind people trying to lead around group of blind people that keeps stumbling into an emotional orgy all along the way!"


True. They are also all chasing the solution to an unsolvable problem. The low-drive person always holds the power in the sexual portion of the relationship, because they alone control frequency. Unless they really, really care about their partner's satisfaction and that their partner has legitimate needs (as opposed to just being horny), the high-drive partner is always going to be dissatisfied in the relationship.

Sadly, the reality of one another's sex drive doesn't usually come to light until after vows are made, and as someone pointed out either here or another thread, a lot of LD people put on "audition sex" before marriage and pull a bait and switch on their partners.

My policy is to be very up front with partners about my drive now, and what my expectations are in regards to sex. Low-drivers are much better off with other low-drivers, and if they would just be honest about this (and if high-drivers paid a little more attention to the clues LDs are putting out), maybe we'd all be a little happier and there would be less divorce.

For myself, the signs were there with my ex-husband, but I didn't see them. I also didn't know what to look for. But we could have avoided so much if he had just been honest with me.

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

badsanta said:


> You should venture into the "coping with infidelity" forum and announce that you are considering that solution for your marriage. You'll quickly get LOTS of advice.
> 
> Unfortunately you might get some extremely insightful advice that you have not yet considered. You'll learn what a "VAR" is and all that great stuff to make sure you find out everything about your husband before making any sudden decisions!
> 
> Badsanta


Lolol!!!! I can imagine!
I'm NOT a deceitful person, though, I can't keep things to myself like that, it's too much work...I'm terrible at pretending anything. And I'm just too practical to go sneaking around and hiding stuff. 
I have NO thoughts of what to do next, but whatever and whenever I decide, I'll be honest and open about it.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> Ok, now I can respond more evenly...Lol!!
> These are all really great ideas for couples in reciprocal sexual relationships!! I'm happy that they worked for you, and/or that you have had the opportunity to work through them to some degree and enhance and deepen your sex life with your wife, and to feel more satisfied! I would LOVE to have a relationship like that - I LOVE reading ideas and philosophies about sex (and anything, even), and exploring and discussing them!!
> 
> However, people (men especially, I think) who have normal-high drives have absolutely NO understanding of low-drive men. The suggestions I have read on this site alone prove that to me...even before sex went completely away for us, I used to think, "THAT would never work!", to some of the things that normal drive men imaging would get a man's motor running when it's the wife who is frustrated. My husband's drive is tied to HIS mind, what turns HIM on, and he has NO room in there for ME. _I_ don't turn him on, I don't think - he has to feel the urge and arousal for sex first, THEN he would seek me out. And that was always fine, I was just happy to have sex!! I was open and excited about ANYTHING that excited HIM, always.
> ...


“he has to feel the urge and arousal for sex first, THEN he would seek me out.”

Yep! Thats the way it’s always been for me too. Then it feels more of a wham bam thank you ma’am.
Maybe I am too needy? I’m usually so desperate by that time I’ll take it, but where is the romance in that? Where is the emotional connection? 
and then I almost like I feel unvalued. And I know he doesn’t mean it like that. I know he doesn’t.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

FeministInPink said:


> The low-drive person always holds the power in the sexual portion of the relationship, because they alone control frequency. Unless they really, really care about their partner's satisfaction and that their partner has legitimate needs (as opposed to just being horny), the high-drive partner is always going to be dissatisfied in the relationship.


I agree with you and I used to see it exactly in that manner. Things used to be so frustrating. But from where I stand now, I see that I was the one with all the power and struggling by trying to have even more control. 

For example, I used to want full control over my when and how my wife got aroused. I sincerely wanted to be wanted, but looking back I realize that it had to be on my terms in the way I wanted and exactly when I wanted to be wanted. I was over controlling and became rather manipulative to try and compel my wife to do as I wanted exactly how I wanted things. I got good at it. I was the one completely in control. 

Finally I stepped back and started letting her be in control. At first glance that might seem like the typical passive aggressive idea of not initiating just to see how long it would take her to make a move. But no it did not work that way. Instead I taught her how to better manipulate me (just as I had been doing to her in the past) to get what SHE wants and desires. It has involved working a lot on her self confidence and awkwardly the things she wants and desires tend to lend themselves very well towards improving our sexual well being. 

That said from a wife that used to repeatedly tell me, "I just have no desire for sex." "I think I would be fine without sex for the rest of my life." "The day you get old and your penis stops getting erect will be a day that I celebrate being done with all this nonsense." "You should just find yourself someone new that likes sex and leave me." 

Now in my house things have changed. We still struggle from time to time which is natural. Recently my doctor prescribed me something and when my wife read the side effects that it could lower my libido, she flat out refused to allow me to take it and insisted the doctor had to find an alternative (I think that is the biggest compliment she has ever given me!). When I came home with a new prescription that had the side effect of increasing my libido and making sex more pleasurable, she giggled and said that she was willing to subject herself to that if it meant me being healthier. 

My whole point here is that looking back I honestly felt as if I had no control but could not see that I was the controlling one.

Badsanta


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

badsanta said:


> I agree with you and I used to see it exactly in that manner. Things used to be so frustrating. But from where I stand now, I see that I was the one with all the power and struggling by trying to have even more control.
> 
> For example, I used to want full control over my when and how my wife got aroused. I sincerely wanted to be wanted, but looking back I realize that it had to be on my terms in the way I wanted and exactly when I wanted to be wanted. I was over controlling and became rather manipulative to try and compel my wife to do as I wanted exactly how I wanted things. I got good at it. I was the one completely in control.
> 
> ...


Gosh this just gave me a mountain of hope!! 
Sorry you have went though this, but it gives me hope! Just that there can be change.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

FeministInPink said:


> My policy is to be very up front with partners about my drive now, and what my expectations are in regards to sex. Low-drivers are much better off with other low-drivers, and if they would just be honest about this (and if high-drivers paid a little more attention to the clues LDs are putting out), maybe we'd all be a little happier and there would be less divorce.


Question for you @FeministInPink Do you ever find that men that often define themselves as being HD turn out in reality NOT to be?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Mary L said:


> Gosh this just gave me a mountain of hope!!
> Sorry you have went though this, but it gives me hope! Just that there can be change.


My wife and I were joking the other day that my ability of being a lover that far exceeds her wildest dreams first involves a very long process of me lowering her expectations.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

I get that. I do think at times that’s an issue for me. 
I have shared “needs” and concerns with him. How I want to be closer, more intimate, etc.
but if he could actually read my mind? He would probably run away! Haha 
I do have to wonder how much (because I’m sure it does) that plays in my “unhappiness”


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

badsanta said:


> Question for you @FeministInPink Do you ever find that men that often define themselves as being HD turn out in reality NOT to be?


I'm drawing mostly on what I've heard others say here. My primary example is my ex-husband, and yes, he claimed to be high drive and I ended up in a sexless marriage with a man who never initiated and turned me down every time I tried initiate.

The only other person I've been with long enough to determine if he actually WAS high drive was my most recent boyfriend. And he definitely was.

Maybe I'm wrong, and maybe only a small number of LD people masquerade as HD, but I experienced it and it was hell. If I can keep from going through that again, I will.

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

FeministInPink said:


> I'm drawing mostly on what I've heard others say here. My primary example is my ex-husband, and yes, he claimed to be high drive and I ended up in a sexless marriage with a man who never initiated and turned me down every time I tried initiate.
> 
> The only other person I've been with long enough to determine if he actually WAS high drive was my most recent boyfriend. And he definitely was.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that feedback. I have to imagine that there are many self-HD-identifying people here on this forum that would actually qualify as LD in a different relationship. I don't think it has anything to do with being attracted to the other person (I mean obviously that can be a factor), but more about the emotional compatibility that just takes a while to reveal itself.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

I didn’t read the entire thread but after been married twice, I think the only thing that makes sex “unnatural” is the marriage itself. The boredom sets in. Taking each other for granted. It’s easier to watch porn or grab the vibrator. The excuses mount. The kids, the jobs, the mortgage.

I firmly believe the best and healthiest sex life for a HD person is to not get married. I’m not opposed to LTR, but when the red flags come out, it’s easier to run.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

RebuildingMe said:


> I didn’t read the entire thread but after been married twice, I think the only thing that makes sex “unnatural” is the marriage itself. The boredom sets in. Taking each other for granted. It’s easier to watch porn or grab the vibrator. The excuses mount. The kids, the jobs, the mortgage.
> 
> I firmly believe the best and healthiest sex life for a HD person is to not get married. I’m not opposed to LTR, but when the red flags come out, it’s easier to run.


Sorry, newbie here! What is "LTR"?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Mary L said:


> Sorry, newbie here! What is "LTR"?


Long Term Relationship


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> Long Term Relationship





LisaDiane said:


> Long Term Relationship



Thank you!!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

RebuildingMe said:


> I didn’t read the entire thread but after been married twice, I think the only thing that makes sex “unnatural” is the marriage itself. The boredom sets in. Taking each other for granted. It’s easier to watch porn or grab the vibrator. The excuses mount. The kids, the jobs, the mortgage.


...not to mention the health issues of getting older, in-laws, family drama, busy work schedules, pets that tear up stuff in the house, complaints from the HOA about your Direct TV Dish placement, car trouble, unexpected credit card expenses, tax liabilities, lapsed termite certification for your home, broken swimming pool pump, increasing insurance premiums, increasing cost of living, broken compressor on the air conditioner, leaking roof after a hail storm, end of life care for a grandparent, tree roots that result in a broken water main on your side of the meter, unexpected redistricting of the local school zones, increased taxes, computer virus, and so on and so on.....

Now imagine actually having the skills to still enjoy sex with a spouse in the middle of all that!


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

badsanta said:


> ...not to mention the health issues of getting older, in-laws, family drama, busy work schedules, pets that tear up stuff in the house, complaints from the HOA about your Direct TV Dish placement, car trouble, unexpected credit card expenses, tax liabilities, lapsed termite certification for your home, broken swimming pool pump, increasing insurance premiums, increasing cost of living, broken compressor on the air conditioner, leaking roof after a hail storm, end of life care for a grandparent, tree roots that result in a broken water main on your side of the meter, unexpected redistricting of the local school zones, increased taxes, computer virus, and so on and so on.....
> 
> Now imagine actually having the skills to still enjoy sex with a spouse in the middle of all that!


Well, for ME, having sex always made the bad life-crap tolerable! It never took my desire away, it made me SO glad to have sex!! I felt this way when we had financial problems, when we had babies and toddlers, when I spent all day in the house, when I was tired, when I had arguments with my family, when my beloved aunt died -- SEX helped me recover from the pain of those things, and helped ground me and remember what it was like to FEEL GOOD.

What can be more stress-relieving than having your body touched just for YOUR pleasure...?? 

That's why I can say, I will NEVER understand low-drive women!! Lol!


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

badsanta said:


> ...not to mention the health issues of getting older, in-laws, family drama, busy work schedules, pets that tear up stuff in the house, complaints from the HOA about your Direct TV Dish placement, car trouble, unexpected credit card expenses, tax liabilities, lapsed termite certification for your home, broken swimming pool pump, increasing insurance premiums, increasing cost of living, broken compressor on the air conditioner, leaking roof after a hail storm, end of life care for a grandparent, tree roots that result in a broken water main on your side of the meter, unexpected redistricting of the local school zones, increased taxes, computer virus, and so on and so on.....
> 
> Now imagine actually having the skills to still enjoy sex with a spouse in the middle of all that!


Having sex should be the ‘fun’ part of the marriage. If you can’t look forward to and enjoy that part (health reasons excluded), what’s the point of even being married? It took me two turns at marriage to realize that most marriages aren’t worth the trouble they cause. There will never be a third...
I’m sorry you are going through this. Unfortunately, there is only one true known way out of it. People change for a day, a week, a month (if you’re lucky). Beyond that, people don’t change.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> What can be more stress-relieving than having your body touched just for YOUR pleasure...??
> 
> That's why I can say, I will NEVER understand low-drive women!! Lol!


*edit later to note this is a new thought of mine and to correct some typos*

OK, now THIS is a critical dynamic where some couples (me & my wife included) struggle. There are two fundamental types of people with regards to stress and sex:

A) Those that crave sex as a way to sooth themselves when stressed
B) Those that can not get aroused due to stress suppressing their libido
It is also important to note that both types of people have their value and that there is nothing inherently wrong with one or the other. Obviously is one person falls into one category while the spouse in the other, you can see that it will create some severe challenges.

So what are the tools to work in that? It is obviously an uncomfortable process that a couple in that situation will need to endure in order to gain the coping skills to overcome that challenge. Person A) needs to learn that a spouse's suppressed libido is not associated with personal rejection, instead person B) may actually need A) a lot during this time, just not sexually. Person B) needs to realize that sex for person A) is often about helping sooth and relax an otherwise stressful situation and that this stress needs to be defused.

Ironically BOTH person A) and B) have to learn how to shift and nonsexual intimacy as a place to sooth and heal from stress, so that once an opportunity for sexual intimacy occurs that it is NOT about relieving stress. It is about already feeling already relaxed and sharing an emotional connection in a way that is mutually pleasurable.

*Person A) can NOT and should NOT use person B) sexually to relieve life's everyday stress!!!!* Otherwise it is a completely disconnecting experience that will leave one or both emotionally unsettled and serve to push the relationship apart.

*Now having said that, stress can be an incredibly erotic ingredient when used lovingly in the marriage bed. It is about creating a playful form of stress that originated from within a couple's shared intimacy as opposed to bringing external stress into the bedroom that is unresolved.*

The process of understanding that and arriving in that mindset is not easy and feels rather unnatural. For those that enjoy sex for relieving stress, it feels completely natural to do just that as opposed to somehow letting go of all that tension and starting from scratch in order to join with your partner. Meanwhile nonsexual intimacy seems to be made for relieving stress.

How many people have been stressed and wanted sex only to have a partner reject the idea while asking for just nonsexual intimacy? The result of which was rejected because person A) already felt rejected and too angry for nonsexual intimacy. As in, _"OK we can't have sex, so I guess I'll just leave you alone and go watch TV or whatever by myself then! Why on f***ing earth would I want to snuggle and get all aroused if I already know we can't have sex!!!"_ ....and the result is a huge freaking disconnect and both A) and B) have increased stress!

Badsanta


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> Well, for ME, having sex always made the bad life-crap tolerable! It never took my desire away, it made me SO glad to have sex!! I felt this way when we had financial problems, when we had babies and toddlers, when I spent all day in the house, when I was tired, when I had arguments with my family, when my beloved aunt died -- SEX helped me recover from the pain of those things, and helped ground me and remember what it was like to FEEL GOOD.
> 
> What can be more stress-relieving than having your body touched just for YOUR pleasure...??
> 
> That's why I can say, I will NEVER understand low-drive women!! Lol!


Yep my wife and I feel the same way.

Throughout our 24 years of being together, my wife and I have shared 9 different addresses together (from inner city environs to an small isolated town on the edge of the outback. Survived a multiple casualty incident, which saw my wife (then girlfriend) unable to walk for a number of weeks and get plastic surgery to repair her face. We've been through a house fire together, been trapped for two weeks as a consequence of floods. Experienced forced redundancy, gone through the experience of abortion.

While also having dealt with repeated separation for weeks through months at a time, for 7 and a bit years, while I was in the Army. Raised/raising children together. Got through my almost dying, two years into our marriage. Got past cancer recently, still dealing with a child who has a significant illness that may kill her. While we've dealt with lots of other significant things as well while also often not living near any other family as well.

Yet with all of that and more, we've always shared a lot of varied frequent sex together, Where sex feels good and that feel good experience of ****ing a lot, goes a long way to makes things feel good whatever challenges we experience.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

RebuildingMe said:


> Having sex should be the ‘fun’ part of the marriage. If you can’t look forward to and enjoy that part (health reasons excluded), what’s the point of even being married? It took me two turns at marriage to realize that most marriages aren’t worth the trouble they cause.


I've been married twice and a lack of frequent and enthusiastic sex has never been a thing in either marriage (my first marriage didn't fail as a consequence of a lack of sex).

Until starting to read this forum a few years ago, I didn't know that a lack of sex was a problem in marriage.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

badsanta said:


> *edit later to note this is a new thought of mine and to correct some typos*
> 
> OK, now THIS is a critical dynamic where some couples (me & my wife included) struggle. There are two fundamental types of people with regards to stress and sex:
> 
> ...


You know when you read something, and a light bulb goes off? 

A) Those that crave sex as a way to sooth themselves when stressed
B) Those that can not get aroused due to stress suppressing their libido
I don't think I ever realized that this is a thing with us, until now. 
Stress shuts my husband down, but its not just sexually. Non sexual intimacy goes out the window. Talking goes out the window! I use to have to remind him to be present when he's home, talk to the kids, to me! He would snap out of it if I mentioned it, unless he was having a BAD day, then I gave him space to check out. 
Until I read what you wrote, I don't think I realized how much of an emotional stress release sex is for me. I've joked with my husband about how stress sex would/could be hot. I guess I knew it, but the polar differences that is, seeing it written out, just opened my eyes a bit to something new!


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

badsanta said:


> OK, now THIS is a critical dynamic where some couples (me & my wife included) struggle. There are two fundamental types of people with regards to stress and sex:
> 
> A) Those that crave sex as a way to sooth themselves when stressed
> B) Those that can not get aroused due to stress suppressing their libido


I wonder if depression, anxiety and the like plus the drugs that are often prescribed to help with such things, play a significant role in many libido problems?


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

Personal said:


> I wonder if depression, anxiety and the like plus the drugs that are often prescribed to help with such things, play a significant role in many libido problems?


Those drugs have a lot of (potentially) negative side effects. I would obviously never tell someone not to take their medications, but I cant imagine this wouldn't play a part in it.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Mary L said:


> You know when you read something, and a light bulb goes off?
> 
> A) Those that crave sex as a way to sooth themselves when stressed
> B) Those that can not get aroused due to stress suppressing their libido
> I don't think I ever realized that this is a thing with us, until now.


Awareness and talking about it (if that has been an issue for your marriage) is half the battle! Working together to improve things is the other half. 



I honestly hope that helps you guys! That would put a smile on my day.

Badsanta


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

badsanta said:


> Awareness and talking about it (if that has been an issue for your marriage) is half the battle! Working together to improve things is the other half.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It’s helped me. I want to talk with hubby tonight when he gets home about it.


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## BIL310 (Apr 26, 2017)

LisaDiane said:


> Well, for ME, having sex always made the bad life-crap tolerable! It never took my desire away, it made me SO glad to have sex!! I felt this way when we had financial problems, when we had babies and toddlers, when I spent all day in the house, when I was tired, when I had arguments with my family, when my beloved aunt died -- SEX helped me recover from the pain of those things, and helped ground me and remember what it was like to FEEL GOOD.
> 
> What can be more stress-relieving than having your body touched just for YOUR pleasure...??
> 
> That's why I can say, I will NEVER understand low-drive women!! Lol!


i wish I could transplant your brain into my wife’s Lisa!


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

BIL310 said:


> i wish I could transplant your brain into my wife’s Lisa!


Lol!!! I have O-negative blood, the universal donor...maybe we should try THAT...??


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## BIL310 (Apr 26, 2017)

LisaDiane said:


> Lol!!! I have O-negative blood, the universal donor...maybe we should try THAT...??


I’ll start looking for surgeons now.....lol


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Think of the relationships we could save if it worked...!!!!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

BIL310 said:


> I’ll start looking for surgeons now.....lol


Seems like a rather "unnatural" solution if you ask me.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

badsanta said:


> OK, now THIS is a critical dynamic where some couples (me & my wife included) struggle. There are two fundamental types of people with regards to stress and sex:
> 
> A) Those that crave sex as a way to sooth themselves when stressed
> B) Those that can not get aroused due to stress suppressing their libido
> ...


I had a good conversation about this with my wife yesterday. It was rather meaningful to talk about the challenging dynamics of stress on our combined sexuality.

My wife often has trouble sleeping after sex, and I wondered if this might be because I am bringing my stress into the bedroom and asking her to deal with it so that I can relax and sleep better. It is something that I had never thought about before, and realized that it can be something that tends to make sexual intimacy more challenging. She told me that she was aware of me doing this but perhaps we had never verbalized it before. She mentioned that while that process tends to make her feel used, that she does not mind giving me her body in a loving way to help me with that when I need it. 

She also mentioned that it is not until we both reach a point of helping each other relieve our daily stress of life (non sexually) that she finally reaches a point of easily being more receptive to enjoying sexual intimacy. What helps her the most with that is talking through her day with regards to her challenges with me listening and helping her organize her thoughts for the next day. We also face many challenges with parenting and need to make sure we are effectively coordinating our efforts. 

Once my wife lets go of her stress, I generally find myself comforted and relaxed by that as well. Then we are likely at a better starting point to try and get physical with one another. So this is something I am going to work on and be more aware. 

Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

I was reading a new book the other day and it was getting into the topic about how the brain in low desire people tends to function in a certain way with regards to sexual stimulus. One of the first problems (many women) that often arises is that people have too many thoughts in their mind and can't calm down and allow themselves to focus on something. Here is a good youtube video that demonstrates that:






Perhaps many of you have seen that before and somehow managed to count all the basketball passes accurately and found the second question to be impossible until you rewatched it. Well that is what happens to people with low desire. Their brains over the years have been trained to ignore certain signals as distracting and/or unimportant which can make them numb to their own bodies and experience difficulties getting aroused. 

So how do you correct that? Well of course the book I am reading gives lame examples but the idea is that one has to learn how to meditate. In that you calm the mind and open it to listening to itself without any expectations. One exercise was to simply calm down and see if you can become aware of your own heart beating within your body. 

I thought I would share this to help give more insight into the "LD" mind for those reading. 

Badsanta


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

badsanta said:


> I was reading a new book the other day and it was getting into the topic about how the brain in low desire people tends to function in a certain way with regards to sexual stimulus. One of the first problems (many women) that often arises is that people have too many thoughts in their mind and can't calm down and allow themselves to focus on something. Here is a good youtube video that demonstrates that:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You always contribute the most interesting topics and points of view about sex and desire!! I get so much out of your posts!  

However, again, I do not fit the mold of "low drive" - my mind is all over the place all the time, and I find it hard to relax and "get into" sex sometimes, but that doesn't affect my desire for sex, which is HIGH almost all the time. 
I don't know if it's because my drive is in my MIND, not in my body...like, I exist in my life feeling excited by the possibility of having sex, whether my BODY feels like it or not - I never use being physically aroused as an indicator of whether I want sex or not, because like I've said before, any sexual activity IS arousing.

I think the desire to HAVE sex should be a CHOICE, not a physical FEELING...


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

badsanta said:


> OK, now THIS is a critical dynamic where some couples (me & my wife included) struggle. There are two fundamental types of people with regards to stress and sex:
> 
> A) Those that crave sex as a way to sooth themselves when stressed
> B) Those that can not get aroused due to stress suppressing their libido




This is a good distinction. Now I'll have to revise my spouse swap app idea! Instead of just two categories, HD and LD, we'll have Type A with HD and LD subgroups, and Type B with the same. Ready. Set. Go find your new partner!


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

badsanta said:


> So how do you correct that? Well of course the book I am reading gives lame examples but the idea is that one has to learn how to meditate. In that you calm the mind and open it to listening to itself without any expectations. One exercise was to simply calm down and see if you can become aware of your own heart beating within your body.


Yes, I can see where becoming good at mindfulness could help reduce those distractions. I wonder if lobotomies would work, too? (Just kidding!)


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> You always contribute the most interesting topics and points of view about sex and desire!! I get so much out of your posts!
> 
> However, again, I do not fit the mold of "low drive" - my mind is all over the place all the time, and I find it hard to relax and "get into" sex sometimes, but that doesn't affect my desire for sex, which is HIGH almost all the time.
> I don't know if it's because my drive is in my MIND, not in my body...like, I exist in my life feeling excited by the possibility of having sex, whether my BODY feels like it or not - I never use being physically aroused as an indicator of whether I want sex or not, because like I've said before, any sexual activity IS arousing.
> ...


Thanks for you post and feedback. I think the mind of the HD person is something most people are fairly familiar with as that is 95% of those here in this forum. Everything I have read indicates that the MIND is indeed where sex happens and where your response (or lack thereof) is controlled.

One thing I can't help but to find extremely fascinating is to reverse engineer solutions for improving issues with LD and see if the reverse has an opposite impact on an HD person for helping to lower their drive.

It might be even more challenging for an LD person to understand the mind of an HD person. Everything my wife does to try to get me to calm down only serves to get me more worked up and excited, to the point we both have to just laugh about it. Then she tends to respond to me getting super excited and start enjoying things herself.

So depending on your perspective and approach @LisaDiane you could use your husband's LD attributes to your advantage to make sex super enjoyable in a way that is ironically stressful if combined with unrealistic overconfidence and playfulness. Start by challenging your husband to NOT get you in the mood and allow him to try just that! Odds are your sexual prowess is enough to overpower him, make him fail and you will enjoy it!


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

badsanta said:


> Thanks for you post and feedback. I think the mind of the HD person is something most people are fairly familiar with as that is 95% of those here in this forum. Everything I have read indicates that the MIND is indeed where sex happens and where your response (or lack thereof) is controlled.
> 
> One thing I can't help but to find extremely fascinating is to reverse engineer solutions for improving issues with LD and see if the reverse has an opposite impact on an HD person for helping to lower their drive.
> 
> ...


This is a really interesting way to think of arousal! 
This is NOT something that I could ever try with my husband - he is not LD...he is ND - NO drive - for ME anyway...he has NO interest in including me in his sex life...and he was impossible to discuss it with. I tried for years to work through all the barriers that he presented, because I loved him and wanted to protect our marriage and my love for him. But I got tired of fighting him and to be honest, the ONE thing that kills MY desire and drive is not being wanted sexually. I have NO sexual interest in someone who doesn't desire ME...NONE. 
So WE are finished having sex. I have accepted that, and will figure out what I want to do about it going forward.

Your idea might be great for other LD/HD partners though!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> This is a really interesting way to think of arousal!
> This is NOT something that I could ever try with my husband - he is not LD...he is ND - NO drive - for ME anyway...he has NO interest in including me in his sex life...and he was impossible to discuss it with. I tried for years to work through all the barriers that he presented, because I loved him and wanted to protect our marriage and my love for him. But I got tired of fighting him and to be honest, the ONE thing that kills MY desire and drive is not being wanted sexually. I have NO sexual interest in someone who doesn't desire ME...NONE.
> So WE are finished having sex. I have accepted that, and will figure out what I want to do about it going forward.
> 
> Your idea might be great for other LD/HD partners though!


OK, I know that HD men have no understanding of LD (or ND) men as you have stated before. But you yourself seem to have a firm understanding of a dynamic that causes most people to become LD in a marriage, and that is harboring anger or resentment towards a spouse. It is well documented that the longer that is allowed to happen, that the more difficult it becomes to resolve. Because your mind has now developed a pattern of expecting something negative from your husband, you will automatically overlook the nice things or anything positive when it does happen. SO in that sense you actually can put yourself in the shoes of an LD person within the context of completely loosing one's drive just for your partner. 

At this point you seem content to allow the marriage to fail in order to give ourself permission to move on, or perhaps you just need further validation that it can not be saved before you start the process?

I would probably be willing to try and help your marriage, but you seem just about as stubborn for the notion of practicing forgiveness and gratitude as you describe your husband's inability to desire you physically. Perhaps the two of you are a better match than you thought...

Most books on healthy sexuality often conclude:

You can't depend on your spouse for validation (as in wanting to be wanted)
You are responsible for your own arousal 
Challenges are often overcome by practicing forgiveness, gratitude, and appreciating how being differentiated from your spouse stands to improve diversity in the relationship
Sometimes you may need the strength to end a relationship in order to arrive in the place that healing it can begin
You seem to check off none of the above!

Regards,
Badsanta


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

The one with the higher libido has equal rights with the one with the lower libido. The one with the higher libido has a handy solution when their partner doesn't want to have sex. One with the lower libido has no such handy solution and having sex when he or she does not want to would likely lead to divorce. People at every age and all walks of life know that the solution when a partner isn't available is to masturbate.

After all it's not making love if the other person isn't feeling it, so the old excuse that it's not the same or you want to feel close just doesn't hold water. Because how can you feel close if you have no problem pressuring your mate to have sex when they don't want to? That's not love and that's not closeness. It's simply a refusal to acknowledge that the other person has the same rights you have.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

badsanta said:


> OK, I know that HD men have no understanding of LD (or ND) men as you have stated before. But you yourself seem to have a firm understanding of a dynamic that causes most people to become LD in a marriage, and that is harboring anger or resentment towards a spouse. It is well documented that the longer that is allowed to happen, that the more difficult it becomes to resolve. Because your mind has now developed a pattern of expecting something negative from your husband, you will automatically overlook the nice things or anything positive when it does happen. SO in that sense you actually can put yourself in the shoes of an LD person within the context of completely loosing one's drive just for your partner.
> 
> At this point you seem content to allow the marriage to fail in order to give ourself permission to move on, or perhaps you just need further validation that it can not be saved before you start the process?
> 
> ...


Ok, can you be a little more clear on what you are telling me here...are you challenging me to DO MORE to arouse my husband (which has NEVER worked after 15 years of trying)...??

I understand that you don't have a clear picture of what happened with my sex life with my husband, because I only started posting about it in solidarity with Mary, I never intended to be so open about it here, because I am not seeking any "help" in resolving it...so some of the things you post to me about it have been tried, and some of the things would never work with a partner who DOES NOT CARE about my feelings on the subject...are you thinking that I haven't done enough to try and resolve something that is so terribly painful for me to live with every day...?
If you would like more details about what I have gone through with him, I would be happy to describe more for you privately, but you would be wasting your time - HE does NOT want ME...and nothing YOU suggest will change that.

Many of the things you post are very vague (but very good) THEORIES - like your list that I bolded...those are terrific CONCEPTS, but HOW are you suggesting they be brought into a non-functioning sex life between two people...??
Please describe for me IN DETAIL how those conclusions LOOK between two people, one of whom has NO interest in having sex with the other one...I mean it, please describe HOW to implement those things with a NO drive spouse...??

Believe me, NOTHING you have ever posted about would work with MY husband - NOTHING. 
What I have done in my relationship with him is to GIVE UP on hoping he will change - to save my heart and my sanity from being rejected constantly every day. I am NOT resentful - I just see things exactly as they are with him, and I completely accept him the way he is. I am ANGRY that he is being selfish, but it's not an anger that poisons anything else in my life - it's more like, "I deserve to be treated better, so until YOU see that, you can wait on the other side of this wall from ME"...I still spend time with him and laugh with him, and watch tv with him, and help him, without an attitude. I am not overly loving like I used to be, but that's because I don't feel overly loving towards him without sex.

What I am content to do is to accept him the way he is to stop the constant conflict, and to decide if I am capable of living with and loving a man without having sex with him. That is all. IF I cannot, I will not force or try to coerce him into being a different person, I will leave so I can be happy and be myself.
I'm not sure how you can see that as anything but a positive way of handling a painful situation.

Again, I would like you to specifically describe how you think I am supposed to be sexual with a man who IS NOT interested in me sexually...


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> The one with the higher libido has equal rights with the one with the lower libido. The one with the higher libido has a handy solution when their partner doesn't want to have sex. One with the lower libido has no such handy solution and having sex when he or she does not want to would likely lead to divorce. People at every age and all walks of life know that the solution when a partner isn't available is to masturbate.
> 
> After all it's not making love if the other person isn't feeling it, so the old excuse that it's not the same or you want to feel close just doesn't hold water. Because how can you feel close if you have no problem pressuring your mate to have sex when they don't want to? That's not love and that's not closeness. It's simply a refusal to acknowledge that the other person has the same rights you have.


Well, masturbation isn't even close to the same thing as sexual expression with a partner for most people. I didn't intend to sign up for monogamy with someone so that I could spend the rest of my life having sex with MYSELF.
To me, it's about generosity, love and CARE...and keeping your promises.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

So you would rather have sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with you? And of course we're talking low libido not no libido. and what one person thinks is low and another person may think is high or normal. Just because you get married doesn't mean your spouse has to have sex with you anytime you want to. It has never meant that.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> So you would rather have sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with you? And of course we're talking low libido not no libido. and what one person thinks is low and another person may think is high or normal. Just because you get married doesn't mean your spouse has to have sex with you anytime you want to. It has never meant that.


No, but then it was also not supposed to mean that the LD spouse gets to set all the rules of when sex is allowed.
To answer your question, NO, I absolutely wouldn't...what I expect is that there is a compromise, and that I am wanted because I am loved and my needs and desires are recognized and CARED about. 
The "doing things for eachother we don't really want to do" is a constant theme in ALL relationships.

Is the HD spouse allowed to go outside the marriage to have their needs met, so the LD spouse can keep having their needs (for no sex) met too...??


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

That's between them. And a lower libido spouse has equal rights with the other one. Now if he or she isn't that put out by compromising and servicing the partner, then the whole thing really isn't an issue. But generally having sex with someone who isn't in the mood is only going to lead to more problems. As people get older all of that changes. It's inevitable.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> That's between them. And a lower libido spouse has equal rights with the other one. Now if he or she isn't that put out by compromising and servicing the partner, then the whole thing really isn't an issue. But generally having sex with someone who isn't in the mood is only going to lead to more problems. As people get older all of that changes. It's inevitable.


I DO agree with that, and I've always maintained that BOTH partners are supposed to care about the needs of the other one, and that's the best way to compromise. But I am vehemently against any partner having to live with a spouse who has NO interest in meeting their needs (sexual or non-sexual), if they are filled with resentment and unhappiness over it. And then the withholding spouse has to face the fact that their self-centeredness is going to end their relationship. 
And again, I believe that goes for ALL needs, sexual and non-sexual.

NO, a low drive spouse shouldn't have to have sex if they don't want to. And also, NO, a high drive spouse is not obligated to stay in a marriage where they have to go without sex with their partner if THEY don't want to.

That's what I think...I understand that others may not agree, and that's ok too.
But they are wrong...  -- KIDDING!!!


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> So you would rather have sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with you?


Indeed not. But if they usually _don't_ want to have sex with me, I won't want a relationship with them. Breaking up/divorce becomes a more attractive option.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

But now, what if they LOVE having the greatest sex with you but it only happens every, say, two weeks or once a month. But you get along great and they love sex, but their body just isn't wired to need it very often. But when you do have sex, it's really great sex and he or she thinks you're the greatest lover on earth. And when they're not in the mood, they're really not in the mood. 

And I would just say to both men and women to watch their hygiene and their drinking and personal habits. I once broke off with an intermittent what today they'd call FWB because he was such an alcoholic that over a decade, his skin began to taste sour and he just reeked of alcohol from every pore. Not that I didn't enjoy the occasional sex.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Married but Happy said:


> Indeed not. But if they usually _don't_ want to have sex with me, I won't want a relationship with them. Breaking up/divorce becomes a more attractive option.


Yes, it certainly can. Of course, that presumes that you can find someone else. The best laid plans...


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> Again, I would like you to specifically describe how you think I am supposed to be sexual with a man who IS NOT interested in me sexually...


THAT used to be my exact problem. I would insist my wife had to desire me AND be aroused or else I would reject the possibility of sex. In doing that it was impossible for me to see that "I" was the one being impossible to please and for her to desire me. It is like giving someone a gift and insisting that they absolutely must enjoy it before gifting it. So I had to learn how to do a few things:

Learn how to be focus on me and enjoy sex with my wife regardless of her ability to get aroused or not. While at the same time welcoming her to respond when and if she was ready.
Help my wife attribute exactly how and why I get aroused as it related to her and how us being together was something more than just assisted masturbation for me. 
Learn how to be sexually rejected and still feel loved (that is an important one!)
...so on and so on.

...I am not prying into your life, but just responding to what spills out all over the place and feels extremely negative to me when I read it. You are the female equivalent to @Holdingontoit in this forum who seems content to love his wife and never have sex again. Perhaps I am projecting my years of frustration of seeing him really enjoy starving his marriage of intimacy. 

It comes across like two freaking kids on the playground pinching each other in the arm as hard as they can to make the other STOP, but at the same time enjoying hurting the other person too much to stop!


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Yes, it certainly can. Of course, that presumes that you can find someone else. The best laid plans...


I ended my first marriage largely over this issue. I quickly found someone MUCH better in every way, and especially so in the sexual realm. (I actually found several such sexually matched women, and chose the best match overall.) The best _laid _.... LOL And I'm confident that I'd have the same outcome again - but happily I don't need to. That's why I'm "Married but Happy."


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I'm glad it worked out for you. Change is usually good. But the older you get, you just have to be realistic.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

badsanta said:


> THAT used to be my exact problem. I would insist my wife had to desire me AND be aroused or else I would reject the possibility of sex. In doing that it was impossible for me to see that "I" was the one being impossible to please and for her to desire me. It is like giving someone a gift and insisting that they absolutely must enjoy it before gifting it. So I had to learn how to do a few things:
> 
> Learn how to be focus on me and enjoy sex with my wife regardless of her ability to get aroused or not. While at the same time welcoming her to respond when and if she was ready.
> Help my wife attribute exactly how and why I get aroused as it related to her and how us being together was something more than just assisted masturbation for me.
> ...


First of all, I want to say that probably most of the "negativity" you are hearing (if you are referring to my attitude) is when I feel misunderstood (and sometimes it seems like it's willful).

But I would like to point out that you again posted things that are vague, and sound like you are NOT reading my posts about how my husband behaves. I sometimes get the feeling that you aren't HEARING what I am saying to you in my writing.

Let me take the first two points...

Please describe to me specifically how this - _Learn how to ...enjoy sex with my wife regardless of her ability to get aroused or not. - _will work with a partner who WILL NOT have sex in any form with me.

Point two...how does someone do this - _Help my wife attribute exactly how and why I get aroused as it related to her_ - with a partner who WILL NOT talk about a problem, and shuts you down with a laugh if you try...?

Please describe specifically HOW...because what I think you still are not understanding is that in MY situation, I am the only one who thinks there is a problem (although, I have let that go now)...HOW do you work on ANY issue in a relationship with someone who doesn't want to hear you or care about your feelings...??


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

badsanta said:


> ...I am not prying into your life, *but just responding to what spills out all over the place and feels extremely negative to me when I read it.* You are the female equivalent to @Holdingontoit in this forum who seems content to love his wife and never have sex again. Perhaps I am projecting my years of frustration of seeing him really enjoy starving his marriage of intimacy.
> 
> *It comes across like two freaking kids on the playground pinching each other in the arm as hard as they can* to make the other STOP, but at the same time enjoying hurting the other person too much to stop!


If this is how you are seeing what I am posting, you definitely are misunderstanding me. And like I said, the frustration and/or negativity is generally being directed at YOU...Lol! I feel alot like you are refusing to HEAR me and understand how different MY situation is from YOURS...and it's kind of YOU who I want to pinch on the playground...Lol!!!


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I'm glad it worked out for you. Change is usually good. But the older you get, you just have to be realistic.


Also, alot of people would rather live alone than with a spouse that they feel is ignoring their needs. I'm certainly not afraid to be alone if the other option is frustration and not being cared for!


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Living alone doesn't keep you from having sex, and it can be a whole lot more peaceful sometimes. Depends on each individual's need for companionship.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I'm glad it worked out for you. Change is usually good. But the older you get, you just have to be realistic.


Thank you! You are totally correct about age and being realistic. There are several factors to weigh (and as I said, I am fortunate in not needing to!): men often experience declining libido and sexual function as they get older; women _may_ become less interested in marriage or any relationship, partly due to hormonal issues and partly aversion to becoming a caretaker; men have a higher morbidity and mortality rate, so there are fewer competing for the interested women. And statistics aside, being realistic about the need to lower your expectations can be difficult for all.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Living alone doesn't keep you from having sex, and it can be a whole lot more peaceful sometimes. Depends on each individual's need for companionship.


AND there are always friends for companionship - I LOVE friends!!!


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Well, you can't take friends for granted. Friendships do end sometimes, run their course. During all this political divide, a lot of people online are talking about losing friends. Or they become so involved with just their family and only have limited energy, so they blow off their old friends for lack of time and energy.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

DownByTheRiver said:


> The one with the higher libido has equal rights with the one with the lower libido. The one with the higher libido has a handy solution when their partner doesn't want to have sex. One with the lower libido has no such handy solution and having sex when he or she does not want to would likely lead to divorce. People at every age and all walks of life know that the solution when a partner isn't available is to masturbate.





DownByTheRiver said:


> But now, what if they LOVE having the greatest sex with you but it only happens every, say, two weeks or once a month. But you get along great and they love sex, but their body just isn't wired to need it very often. But when you do have sex, it's really great sex and he or she thinks you're the greatest lover on earth. And when they're not in the mood, they're really not in the mood.





DownByTheRiver said:


> But the older you get, you just have to be realistic.


Then being realistic since masturbation isn't enough, and presuming one doesn't want to end their marital relationship. Then they should have sex with other people outside of their marriage between those two weeks or month.


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## ah_sorandy (Jul 19, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> AND there are always friends for companionship - I LOVE friends!!!


Online friends are always good.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> Please describe to me specifically how this - _Learn how to ...enjoy sex with my wife regardless of her ability to get aroused or not. - _will work with a partner who WILL NOT have sex in any form with me.


OK, I'll stop being vague. Why do you choose to be a very sexual person married to someone who refuses to have sex with you? Did I miss something? I am assuming that there must be a great deal of nice qualities about the guy that enables you to remain in the relationship. I am assuming that all other parts of the relationship are likely good. Perhaps sex is just the only problem. 

Since you have chosen NOT to really share, don't get frustrated if I don't understand you and assume your husband is likely a wonderful person in many ways.

So if the two of you are married and he is indeed a nice guy, he is likely willing to have sex with you. Just NOT on your terms. If I am correct your current terms are that you will reject any and all of his advances because he makes you feel unwanted sexually. So I am also assuming that if you have prepared yourself to reject him that at some point he initiates or else you are just pissing into the wind?

Does he absolutely refuse to allow you to masturbate while in front of him?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

badsanta said:


> OK, I'll stop being vague. Why do you choose to be a very sexual person married to someone who refuses to have sex with you? *I didn't intend to...he has CHANGED. We had some sexual frequency problems for the previous 15 years, but we always worked it out (otherwise I would have left), he was willing to talk to me about it before...not at all now.*
> Did I miss something? I am assuming that there must be a great deal of nice qualities about the guy that enables you to remain in the relationship. I am assuming that all other parts of the relationship are likely good. Perhaps sex is just the only problem.
> 
> Since you have chosen NOT to really share, don't get frustrated if I don't understand you and assume your husband is likely a wonderful person in many ways.
> ...


I answered some of the questions in bold. 
I could add more detail, but this is all getting too personal for me to comfortably share on a public board, I think.

I wanted to specifically address the part I underlined, though -- I can't help when I feel frustrated...that feeling comes over me on it's own when I feel misunderstood, I can't control it...Lol!! 
However, I'm NOT "frustrated" in a way that I am attacking you and accusing you of making me feel that way...I was only SHARING what my feelings were with you so that I could be clear about what I needed in order to understand you and for you to understand me. When I get angry or annoyed, it prompts me to try and be CLEARER with what I am saying and what I am hearing from the person I am annoyed at (YOU! Lol!!).
So my frustration didn't come with any attitude or threat at all. 

I am wondering, what is your point in posting to me about this...? Is it that you want to help me solve it? That is kind of you, but rather hopeless at this point, I'm afraid. Like I answered above, this situation I am in with him is NEW - like 6 or 7 months old - and I've only just come to the realization that it's going to be my "new normal" with him...so I'm only just having to make a decision about what to do going forward. But I WILL do something about it.

I want you to understand something absolutely -- HE DOES NOT WANT ME SEXUALLY. 
NONE of your methods work with someone who has NO interest in having sex with their partner anymore. 

I always enjoy reading your posts - you are very insightful and have lots of great ideas for couples who are BOTH interested in working through their differing drives and desires and needs. But that is NOT MY situation.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

badsanta said:


> OK, I'll stop being vague.


Also, you never answered my specific questions in my previous post to you...that might be helpful for me to understand better what you are suggesting will work in my situation...


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

An update as I continue to work through the problems in my own marriage...

My wife and I decided to take the holiday weekend to work on some projects around the house. I had myself mentally geared up to just get things done and check everything off the list so that we could relax. Well just about everything went wrong and I ended up in a world of hurt not being able to even check one thing off my list. I had grossly underestimated some of our tasks that ended up being incredibly difficult. I was stressed out to the point that having sex was the furthest thing from my mind and no way could even I get aroused. So as an experiment I chose THAT moment to ask my wife if we could spend some quality time together and help each other calm down and relax before getting back at our to-do list. 

We had a rather interesting conversation while rubbing each other's backs about how stress plays a significant role on the attributes of our sexuality. There are a few different go-to positions my wife and I use that serve completely different functions depending on our moods. The position my wife enjoys the most happens to be the position where I struggle the most (in terms of me still feeling some performance anxiety). So I told my wife that I wanted to work on that position and try to be completely selfish and just enjoy it for myself. So once we got the mood relaxed, I gave it a try and really enjoyed myself.

Now here is the thing. Afterwards my wife accused me of lying. She thinks I was 100% focused on her and trying to make our intimacy more enjoyable for her, because everything I was doing in her favorite position were the specific things she enjoys me doing the most. She admitted that kind of gave her performance anxiety and made HER worry that I was working too hard to please her. The reality was that I wasn't as I was just being selfish and enjoying myself, and that allowed me to overpower her anxiety for her to grab onto one of my sparks and finally allow herself to really enjoy things. We will call this position #1. 

We then switched to my favorite position which is all about me. Afterwards my wife admitted that position was the one that allowed her to "use me" the easiest for her own pleasure, but that since she has to do all the work that position is only good for once she is already in the mood and very aroused. We will call this position #2. 

So for years now my wife during the middle of sex in position #1 has often seemed to be frustrated and pushed me off of her in order to transition to position #2. I always assumed it was because she was just not feeling it and wanted to just take care of me since I enjoy position #2 the best. Turns out position #1 was what was getting her geared up for her to feel the need to use me for her own pleasure in position #2. I always have enjoyed position #2 because I get to be lazy and hang on for the ride. I've never realized she enjoyed that just one as much as me. Meanwhile my wife sometimes admitted that she would feel guilty in position #2 because she felt like she was the one that got to be selfish. 

We talked about things afterwards and laughed that how we each feel guilty being selfish with our own pleasure during lovemaking, but it is one's erotic selfishness that the other tends to really respond to and enjoy the most.

AND all of that initially while we were both really stressed out with things in the house and neither of us were in the mood! We just stopped and made it happen.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

My drive has lowered as I age, and right now I have a young partner who turned out to be rather HD (and as for people who know me, yes... I seem to be cursed!!!)

I'm conflicted about this, because I too dislike any sense of duty attached to sex but my partner right now puts in ALOT of effort learning my triggers, turn ons, and for the most part I'm not complaining (she is incredible) but there have been rare times where I simply do it because I love her not because I'm horny.

I am unsure if that qualifies as duty sex. We are not yet married, but I do love her dearly.


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