# Would you give this woman another chance?



## Brinseed

I would love to know how you would see my situation with my ex. I feel so torn.

Here's what happened:

1. We had a very rough long distance marriage (me in Vancouver, and her in San Jose) that lasted 2 years before I ended it with her. The main problem was that she continually, angrily resisted moving to Vancouver to be with me, even though that was our plan. 

2. About a year into it, thanks to advice that I got from this great forum (thanks guys!), I tried being more firm and setting clearer expectations and boundaries. This had mixed results. 

3. I began suspecting that she was being unfaithful, and I got paranoid about it. I couldn't afford a PI but I did some digital sleuthing I don't feel good about having done that, by the way. I remember feeling that I wished I would find something incriminating, because this would give me an honorable way to bow out. (Sick, I know.) I found the following:

a. She had quite a few encounters, and many conversations, with a guy (let's call him "Guy A"). There was a text from her to a friend of hers saying "I'm in love with Guy A, what do I do?". I know she went to his house for dinner several times. I know that at least once, she stayed over at his place - this was after a music festival, possibly with her cousin also being there. Also, she changed his name on her phone contact list.

b. Another guy ("Guy B") is an older gentleman, a mentor of hers that I have known about forever but, unlike Guy A, I didn't suspect anything. She tried to arrange to meet Guy B in two foreign places (one where she went for a wedding and another for work). She also sent him a very... intimate picture, after he requested it, and a very suggestive text that basically was an invitation fondle her, um, above-the-waist intimate parts. I don't think they actually got together or did anything. 

c. She said to various people that she was not in love anymore, doubtful about the marriage, didn't want to live where I lived, etc. She also talked about how she had to make a 'decision', i.e., a decision about whether to leave me or not. ​
4. When I found all of this I thought long and hard about it all, and finally decided I had to put an end to it. After seeing what I saw, I was certain it would be mutual. I packed all her things into boxes and booked myself a roundtrip, same day flight to end it. Much to my surprise, she tried very hard to talk me out of it. For each thing that I mentioned I knew about or saw, she said there was an explanation - e.g. she didn't mean it, she was confused, etc., let's work on it, etc. I told her I made my decision, and the best I could do was think about it for a few days. She tried to get me stay overnight but I wouldn't.

5. Fast forward 9 months. It looks like our breakup genuinely was a traumatic and life-changing event for her. 
a. She has sent letters, flowers, gifts etc. For the first few months it was continuous but I didn't reply or respond and so it quieted down. She flew up 3 times to try to talk me out of it.

b. She says she was wrong about not wanting to live here, she was torn and confused etc., trying to please both me and her family, which she now sees was a mistake (for context - she works for her family business in San Jose). She says if I take her back she will immediately move here to be with me, and forever will live anywhere I want.

c. She has been in therapy, working with 3 therapists, working on herself and the issues that she now says she sees drove her to behave badly. She also has taken up meditation and kundalini yoga, which she says has changed her profoundly. 

d. Finally she said she was coming up here and she would really like to meet with me and talk. I relented and saw her 3 times, to hear her out. I tried very hard to gauge whether she is being genuine and whether I can trust her. I have to say that she seems to really have had a personal transformation of sorts. She was listening, and empathetic, and seemed genuinely remorseful. She asked again and again for me to give her a chance. I initially said no and then I said I could think it over and I need a week or so. 

e. It's been a week. I am really torn. I still love her but I am deeply afraid that if I give her this chance, things will be the same as before, except that somehow I will now be trapped.​
6. I should add that in addition to our problems that I've brought to this forum, we had many great times together, excellent chemistry, and shared interests, and she generally has a lovely personality.

I feel guilty and I love her, and I care about keeping my commitments especially in this context. If somehow we could get past our incredibly rough start, and be happy together, that would be a dream for me. But the odds seem to be badly against it working out, and I really don't want to go through the heartache and disappointment and guilt of breaking up again.

Would you give this woman a chance?


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## JustSomeGuyWho

Why do you feel the need to keep your commitment when she doesn't feel the need to keep hers?


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## Brinseed

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Why do you feel the need to keep your commitment when she doesn't feel the need to keep hers?


I guess because she now is asking for a chance to keep hers too, even though she didn't before.


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## tennisstar

No way - you're just asking for trouble.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Brinseed

Please vote in the poll!


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## RandomDude

Voted no

She needs to understand the consequences of her actions


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## Hopeful Cynic

Nope. She agreed to move to where you lived. She didn't. She fell in love with or flirted with other men. She expressed a desire to leave you to her friends.

You delivered what she feels is an ultimatum, and now she's panicking because her life as she knows it is going to change if you divorce. Suddenly, moving to Vancouver seems to be the lesser of two evil changes.

But that doesn't mean that if you take her back and she moves, that moving isn't still going to seem like an evil change to her. She would grow to resent you for forcing her to move away from her family and all her friends.

And you would be forever wondering if she's sexting with other men, at the very least, now that she's shown you she's willing to do that.

If you love her, let her go.


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## ariel_angel77

Voted no because even Dr. Phil says that it's asking for an affair/divorce to marry someone who has cheated on you while dating. And in this situation, it's worse, because she would have never stopped cheating if you hadn't caught her. The "change" is B.S.


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## GusPolinski

Sorry, but I can't see taking her back. She was (physically) cheating, and I think you made the right choice. How could you ever trust her again?


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## WorkingOnMe

Actions speak louder than words and she still loves down there. That's the bottom line, all of this is just more bs words. If you really want to give her a chance tell her she has 48 hours to permanently move north and drop all ties to her old home.


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## Brinseed

WorkingOnMe said:


> Actions speak louder than words and she still loves down there. That's the bottom line, all of this is just more bs words. If you really want to give her a chance tell her she has 48 hours to permanently move north and drop all ties to her old home.


I'm pretty sure that if I did that, she would. (Despite not having done it before.)


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## RandomDude

Then let her put her money where her mouth is and prove it.

In addition she needs to rebuild your trust, and would have to accept full responsibility for the affairs offering *complete transparency* - quite frankly from what I've seen from the CWI forums that's the only act of remorse that can truly be taken as sincere from a cheater's mouth.


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## jld

Are you divorced, or just separated?

If you want to give her one more chance,and I mean only one, have a very clear set of written expectations for her. Transparency in every way should be on there. One mistake and it is over. 

And then stick to its being over!


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## bandit.45

Less than two years into your marriage she cheated with two different men?

Uh uh. 


Find a nice Canadian girl to settle down with. Dump Cali girl.


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## Brinseed

jld said:


> Are you divorced, or just separated?
> 
> If you want to give her one more chance,and I mean only one, have a very clear set of written expectations for her. Transparency in every way should be on there. One mistake and it is over.
> 
> And then stick to its being over!


Separated. My lawyer told me we have to be separated 12 months before the divorce can be processed, otherwise would have done it by now.

I'm just as worried that she'll just be mean or belligerent again as that she would cheat again (emotionally or physically). With cheating at least if you catch the person you can leave. 

She offered me the complete transparency thing, actually. She said if I take her back she won't travel anymore, that I can have total access to her phone/online accounts, etc. But I don't want all that. I hated going through her stuff, it made me sick to my stomach, I don't want to need to keep doing that.


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## Brinseed

bandit.45 said:


> Less than two years into your marriage she cheated with two different men?
> 
> Uh uh.
> 
> 
> Find a nice Canadian girl to settle down with. Dump Cali girl.


She says she didn't sleep with either of them. She says with Guy A it was an emotional affair and with Guy B she was just acting stupid. And that in both cases she's ashamed embarrassed regrets it etc etc.


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## Openminded

I voted no. 

If you had children I might rethink that but you don't. She could have changed. But is it a permanent change. That's always the question when you R.


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## jld

Brinseed said:


> Separated. My lawyer told me we have to be separated 12 months before the divorce can be processed, otherwise would have done it by now.
> 
> I'm just as worried that she'll just be mean or belligerent again as that she would cheat again (emotionally or physically). With cheating at least if you catch the person you can leave.
> 
> She offered me the complete transparency thing, actually. She said if I take her back she won't travel anymore, that I can have total access to her phone/online accounts, etc. But I don't want all that. I hated going through her stuff, it made me sick to my stomach, I don't want to need to keep doing that.


You don't have to give the chance, OP. You can just proceed with the divorce if you want.

She may struggle with being accountable on her own. If you don't want to help her, it might be best to let her go.


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## RandomDude

Well it's up to you mate, as for the transparency, personally I wouldn't give a sh-t either about her stuff - except for her willingness or not to offer it - whether she still plans on hiding or whether she's genuine about re-building your trust.

This marriage is tainted and forever the trust will never be 100%, there will be challenges, old and new and more now especially when it comes to surviving her infidelity which will haunt you for years to come. You have to decide whether she's capable of enduring it, whether you are capable of enduring it or would she take you for granted again once she becomes comfortable and content? And if the weight of those memories of her with two other men will be too much to bear for the rest of your life?

You know your wife best, it's up to you mate.

Personally though, I wouldn't tell her I would forgive her, that can't be made by a decision based on how she is right now; remorseful, world crashing down etc - of course she's acting this way, she got caught! Problem is, she got caught, she didn't come forward now did she?

I would forgive her if after a year (AFTER she moved to Vancouver + AFTER she offers transparency) she re-earns my trust and respect. But tis just me



Brinseed said:


> She says she didn't sleep with either of them. She says with Guy A it was an emotional affair and with Guy B she was just acting stupid. And that in both cases she's ashamed embarrassed regrets it etc etc.


:rofl:


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## jld

The more I think about this, the more I think it is a bad idea. I don't think this would work out for you, OP.


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## bandit.45

Brinseed said:


> She says she didn't sleep with either of them. She says with Guy A it was an emotional affair and with Guy B she was just acting stupid. And that in both cases she's ashamed embarrassed regrets it etc etc.


Um....okay....

So she goes to a the first guy's house for dinner several times and nothing happened huh? What did they do? Play canasta?


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## RandomDude

bandit.45 said:


> Um....okay....
> 
> So she goes to a the first guy's house for dinner several times and nothing happened huh? What did they do? Play canasta?


lol

Aye!


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## tom67

bandit.45 said:


> Um....okay....
> 
> So she goes to a the first guy's house for dinner several times and nothing happened huh? What did they do? Play canasta?


Texas hold m or hold her


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## ariel_angel77

Okay. Apparently I completely misunderstood the post and thought you were just dating the woman.

If you are married then I can definitely understand you wanting to give it a second chance. But only if she proves that she really is committed. Go to marriage counseling together.


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## bandit.45

And she stayed over one night?

Brinseed....


C'mon man.


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## bandit.45

ariel_angel77 said:


> Okay. Apparently I completely misunderstood the post and thought you were just dating the woman.
> 
> If you are married then I can definitely understand you wanting to give it a second chance. But only if she proves that she really is committed. Go to marriage counseling together.


No MC is going to amount to a hill of SteveK's used tissues unless she starts telling Brinseed the truth.


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## GusPolinski

bandit.45 said:


> No MC is going to amount to a hill of SteveK's used tissues unless she starts telling Brinseed the truth.


:iagree:

LOL... Nice.


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## tom67

Brin...
POLYGRAPH!!!
Or at least the threat of one.:banghead::banghead::wtf:


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## Ripper

Divorce now. Stop the clock on what has been a sham of a marriage. The great state of California would love to stick you with an alimony payment, get out before you meet the criteria. 

If she is sincere, she can compete with other women and try to woo you back. You can always remarry later with a pre-nup.


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## nuclearnightmare

She has character issues. Therapy cannot "cure" that. Get rid of her before you have kids with her and she has yo u trapped!


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## missthelove2013

since your poll didnt have a "godd damn mutha ***kin hell no" option, i chose no

she refused to move to where you were so she could maintain affairs..

THE FIRST THING SHE SHOULD HAVE DONE TO SHOW REMORSE IS JUMP THROUGH WHATEVER HOOPS NECESSARY TO MOVE BACK TO WHERE YOU ARE

Id be done with this mess...what relationship do you even have with her anymore, she doesnt live with you?????? This to me is such a no-brainer I dont know what else to say


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## Brinseed

Thanks everybody for your thoughtful replies. 

Just to show her side of things a bit, or try to, I want to clarify a few things. Not sure it will change anything but in case it does.



missthelove2013 said:


> she refused to move to where you were so she could maintain affairs..


That may be, but I think the bigger factor was her job which was working for her family. 



missthelove2013 said:


> THE FIRST THING SHE SHOULD HAVE DONE TO SHOW REMORSE IS JUMP THROUGH WHATEVER HOOPS NECESSARY TO MOVE BACK TO WHERE YOU ARE


She tried to. When I first left her 9 months ago she said "I'll move here right away - tomorrow - if you give me a chance." I wouldn't let her, so I'm not sure where she would have lived, exactly. Also, she didn't have a visa to be a permanent resident in Canada. That is generally not as big a problem as it sounds - there are ways to get visas tied to a job, or to simply live here for many months at a time without one - but psychologically I think it was a barrier. She now has that visa - we had applied for it a long long time ago and it finally came in the mail about a month ago. I should have mentioned that earlier but forgot.

I hear everyone's feedback loud and clear and it's really helpful and sobering. I can't really disagree with any of you. It may be hard to understand but I would want to work things out with her... for whatever crazy reason I love this woman (otherwise why marry her) - but only if there's a reasonable chance of success, and not if it's a waste of time and emotional energy. 

Basically my heart says yes, my stomach says no, and my brain says probably no.


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## roostr

I don't think that is any kind of marraige anyway being so far apart.


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## GusPolinski

Brinseed said:


> Thanks everybody for your thoughtful replies.
> 
> Just to show her side of things a bit, or try to, I want to clarify a few things. Not sure it will change anything but in case it does.
> 
> That may be, but I think the bigger factor was her job which was working for her family.
> 
> She tried to. When I first left her 9 months ago she said "I'll move here right away - tomorrow - if you give me a chance." I wouldn't let her, so I'm not sure where she would have lived, exactly. Also, she didn't have a visa to be a permanent resident in Canada. That is generally not as big a problem as it sounds - there are ways to get visas tied to a job, or to simply live here for many months at a time without one - but psychologically I think it was a barrier. She now has that visa - we had applied for it a long long time ago and it finally came in the mail about a month ago. I should have mentioned that earlier but forgot.
> 
> I hear everyone's feedback loud and clear and it's really helpful and sobering. I can't really disagree with any of you. It may be hard to understand but I would want to work things out with her... for whatever crazy reason I love this woman (otherwise why marry her) - but only if there's a reasonable chance of success, and not if it's a waste of time and emotional energy.
> 
> Basically my heart says yes, my stomach says no, and my brain says probably no.


Maybe try a compromise... tell her that, while you're open to reconciliation, given her infidelities, you're still struggling w/ the notion of trusting her again and, as such, you're going to push forward w/ the divorce in order to protect your assets by "stopping the clock" on alimony/spousal support. 

Once the divorce is final, the two of you can begin dating again and reassess at the end of a year. And, obviously, this will mean that she needs to relocate to Vancouver. If, after a year, you feel that she's been honest, transparent, and faithful, you will consider remarriage.

If she balks at this proposal, or points out that she's risking an awful lot for the chance that you might be willing to remarry her at some point, you can point out that a) her hesitation would seem to suggest that she's not at all remorseful for her infidelities and b) you were risking no less when she reneged on her agreement to relocate to Vancouver.


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## Sunburn

There's 3 billion women in the world. You don't have to marry problems.


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## bandit.45

Brinseed said:


> I hear everyone's feedback loud and clear and it's really helpful and sobering. I can't really disagree with any of you. It may be hard to understand but I would want to work things out with her... for whatever crazy reason I love this woman (otherwise why marry her) - but only if there's a reasonable chance of success, and not if it's a waste of time and emotional energy.
> 
> Basically my heart says yes, my stomach says no, and my brain says probably no.


Brinseed, you may love her...but what has she done to prove she loves you?

She spent several evenings and one over-night (so she says) with man #1. She was setting and sending immoral pics to man #2. And yet you sit their and try to defend her skank behavior. 

How is this behavior showing love to you?

IGNORE HER WORDS. LOOK AT HER ACTIONS.

You are living 3,000 miles from her. You have no clue whatsoever what she is doing. She's on her best behavior when she comes to see you. You don't see the tramp she is when you're not around. 

End this fiasco. Your brain and gut are correct.


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## soccermom2three

Are you wealthy or make a lot of money? Is she financially dependent on you? Do you send her money? 

FYI: When a person is in love with another they want to be with that person 24/7.


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## Sunburn

Brinseed said:


> She offered me the complete transparency thing, actually. She said if I take her back she won't travel anymore, that I can have total access to her phone/online accounts, etc. But I don't want all that.


Funny that this wasn't inherent to the relationship the first time around.

Anyway, just like a thief that gets caught, cheaters just find more clever ways to cheat.


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## TBT

Brinseed said:


> It may be hard to understand but I would want to work things out with her... for whatever crazy reason I love this woman (otherwise why marry her) - but only if there's a reasonable chance of success, and not if it's a waste of time and emotional energy.


You're searching for an answer that can provide a positive outcome in my opinion. There are no guarantees. You're an intelligent person and you're aware of the pros and cons. Can it succeed? Sure. Can it fail? Sure. Are your doubts because of the pain it has already caused you or because your gut notices a difference in her words and actions as she is presenting herself now? Sometimes,we pay a high price to roll the dice. I think you just have to decide what you're willing to pay. I don't envy you your decision. Whatever happens,I hope its the best way for you both.Take care.


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## WorkingOnMe

Her not admitting what she's done is not transparency. It's a total non starter.


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## Nikolas

Trust is a very important part of any Marriage, If I couldn't trust my Wife I wouldn't be Married to her, kids or no kids.. She goes out with friends all the time and she' quite attractive, in the 17 years we've been married I've never had to worry about her, cheating is just not in her DNA.. 

But IF she was cheating, our Marriage has been on the rocks for so long that it would give me the excuse I need to divorce her, Plenty more fish in the sea.

It's hard when you have feelings for her though, but you need to think of your future and your own happiness, worrying all the time about whats she's doing and who she's with, you don't need that in your life.


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## johnnycomelately

The first years of the marriage are the easiest in which to be faithful and she fell at the first hurdle. 

Try to imagine how she is going to behave when you have been together for twenty years and the responsibilities of a mortgage, jobs and kids are putting a strain on your relationship. Is she going to be true then? Is she the kind of person you want to have your kids' well-being in her hands? Do you trust her with your long-term happiness?


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## OptimisticPessimist

No way no how. Run do not walk to the nearest exit.

In relative terms you are still in the honeymoon phase. There are couples who have been together 30 years who havent had a party do what your wife has done- this is an indication of flawed character and poor boundaries on her part, and I would say even despite her persistance a lack of FEELING for you. She wants you because you dropped her like a bad habit and went on with your life. If you give her a chance after all shes done, she'll just end up right back there later in your relationship.

Get out now before you have kids with this woman! Get out before some divorce court takes 50% of your wealth and makes you a slave (alimony) supporting her man habit (10 year mark is where things get really bad).

A solid vote for "No" from me. Best of luck with whatever you decide


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## EleGirl

You have hardly seen your wife for your entire marriage. So you really don't know her or have much of a relationship with her.

What holds her to you? Do you provide her any financial support?

To get you to marry her, she said that she would move to where you live. Then once married she did not. You say that its because her job is with her family. She knew that before she promised to move.

Believe her actions. Her actions is that she did not want to live with you so she did not move to live with you.

You really cannot take a risk on this woman. The longer you stay married to her the more she has rights to your assets. She's most likely just biding time.


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## Brinseed

EleGirl said:


> You have hardly seen your wife for your entire marriage. So you really don't know her or have much of a relationship with her.


We saw each-other a lot on weekends, texted constantly and spoke on the phone a lot. Also, she would regularly come up for a week or more at a time and work remotely, which she found difficult because her family was not very supportive of it. So despite the distance we did see each-other a lot. Also, up to about a year before we got married we lived together for a bout a year.



EleGirl said:


> What holds her to you? Do you provide her any financial support?


Not to be too cheesy but love holds me to her. I can't help it. Otherwise I wouldn't be agonizing over this so much. Otherwise I wouldn't need so much support to just cut the cord.

And I guess I like the idea of second chances and people changing. 

As for financial support, no, I don't. When we were together I paid the rent and bills at "our" home.



EleGirl said:


> Believe her actions. Her actions is that she did not want to live with you so she did not move to live with you.


Why then is she begging / insisting that she will stop such behavior forever if given one more chance. I'm so confused. 



EleGirl said:


> You really cannot take a risk on this woman. The longer you stay married to her the more she has rights to your assets. She's most likely just biding time.


That is a good point. There are ways around it such as a post-nupt I suppose. Currently we have a pre-nupt in place but it only protects her family's assets and not mine. I was OK with that because she comes from money so it made sense, really I would never dream of going after their stuff anyway so it was irrelevant.


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## Brinseed

soccermom2three said:


> Are you wealthy or make a lot of money? Is she financially dependent on you? Do you send her money?


I've done quite well for myself but she comes from a wealthier background than me. She's financially independent.



soccermom2three said:


> FYI: When a person is in love with another they want to be with that person 24/7.


I know  this is what broke my heart in the first place and eventually drove me to paranoid suspicion


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## RandomDude

Brinseed said:


> Why then is she begging / insisting that she will stop such behavior forever if given one more chance. I'm so confused.


Seriously? Of course she's going to say that - her whole world came crushing down, she'll say anything to keep the roof from collasping and then...

Back to normal!


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## CuddleBug

Brinseed said:


> I would love to know how you would see my situation with my ex. I feel so torn.
> 
> Here's what happened:
> 
> 1. We had a very rough long distance marriage (me in Vancouver, and her in San Jose) that lasted 2 years before I ended it with her. The main problem was that she continually, angrily resisted moving to Vancouver to be with me, even though that was our plan.
> 
> 2. About a year into it, thanks to advice that I got from this great forum (thanks guys!), I tried being more firm and setting clearer expectations and boundaries. This had mixed results.
> 
> 3. I began suspecting that she was being unfaithful, and I got paranoid about it. I couldn't afford a PI but I did some digital sleuthing I don't feel good about having done that, by the way. I remember feeling that I wished I would find something incriminating, because this would give me an honorable way to bow out. (Sick, I know.) I found the following:
> 
> a. She had quite a few encounters, and many conversations, with a guy (let's call him "Guy A"). There was a text from her to a friend of hers saying "I'm in love with Guy A, what do I do?". I know she went to his house for dinner several times. I know that at least once, she stayed over at his place - this was after a music festival, possibly with her cousin also being there. Also, she changed his name on her phone contact list.
> 
> b. Another guy ("Guy B") is an older gentleman, a mentor of hers that I have known about forever but, unlike Guy A, I didn't suspect anything. She tried to arrange to meet Guy B in two foreign places (one where she went for a wedding and another for work). She also sent him a very... intimate picture, after he requested it, and a very suggestive text that basically was an invitation fondle her, um, above-the-waist intimate parts. I don't think they actually got together or did anything.
> 
> c. She said to various people that she was not in love anymore, doubtful about the marriage, didn't want to live where I lived, etc. She also talked about how she had to make a 'decision', i.e., a decision about whether to leave me or not. ​
> 4. When I found all of this I thought long and hard about it all, and finally decided I had to put an end to it. After seeing what I saw, I was certain it would be mutual. I packed all her things into boxes and booked myself a roundtrip, same day flight to end it. Much to my surprise, she tried very hard to talk me out of it. For each thing that I mentioned I knew about or saw, she said there was an explanation - e.g. she didn't mean it, she was confused, etc., let's work on it, etc. I told her I made my decision, and the best I could do was think about it for a few days. She tried to get me stay overnight but I wouldn't.
> 
> 5. Fast forward 9 months. It looks like our breakup genuinely was a traumatic and life-changing event for her.
> a. She has sent letters, flowers, gifts etc. For the first few months it was continuous but I didn't reply or respond and so it quieted down. She flew up 3 times to try to talk me out of it.
> 
> b. She says she was wrong about not wanting to live here, she was torn and confused etc., trying to please both me and her family, which she now sees was a mistake (for context - she works for her family business in San Jose). She says if I take her back she will immediately move here to be with me, and forever will live anywhere I want.
> 
> c. She has been in therapy, working with 3 therapists, working on herself and the issues that she now says she sees drove her to behave badly. She also has taken up meditation and kundalini yoga, which she says has changed her profoundly.
> 
> d. Finally she said she was coming up here and she would really like to meet with me and talk. I relented and saw her 3 times, to hear her out. I tried very hard to gauge whether she is being genuine and whether I can trust her. I have to say that she seems to really have had a personal transformation of sorts. She was listening, and empathetic, and seemed genuinely remorseful. She asked again and again for me to give her a chance. I initially said no and then I said I could think it over and I need a week or so.
> 
> e. It's been a week. I am really torn. I still love her but I am deeply afraid that if I give her this chance, things will be the same as before, except that somehow I will now be trapped.​
> 6. I should add that in addition to our problems that I've brought to this forum, we had many great times together, excellent chemistry, and shared interests, and she generally has a lovely personality.
> 
> I feel guilty and I love her, and I care about keeping my commitments especially in this context. If somehow we could get past our incredibly rough start, and be happy together, that would be a dream for me. But the odds seem to be badly against it working out, and I really don't want to go through the heartache and disappointment and guilt of breaking up again.
> 
> Would you give this woman a chance?



I would say move on and I also voted "no".

Long distance relationships usually don't work and someone strays.....

She strayed, you found out and are ending the relationship. Now all of a sudden, she wants things to work, was confused and every excuse in the book to keep you and her comfy situation. She can mess around, while you live in Vancouver and why would she want to end that?

She was sending sexual pics of herself to another man.

She was saying she is no longer in love with you and wants Guy A.

And that's who you only know of. If there are two guys already, there are probably more.

If you wouldn't of snooped, found out what she has done and are ending it, she would of continued with Guy A, probably left you for him in the end. This way, you are ending it instead of her leaving you for this other man and screwing you over. Much easier to say its over from her when she is so far away and Guy A, B, C, D, E.....are near by.

Rule of thumb, never do long distance relationships.

Sounds like she has you instead of you having her and she knows it.

Wish you the best and that it works out for you. Find a good woman in Vancouver already.


----------



## chazmataz3

is she willing to take a polygraph about the affairs? Would she still want to come even if you continued the divorce? You said you had a bad feeling which led to your checking up on her and your ending it?Well, your acted on your gut feelings before and now you say you have a good feeling that shes changed so whats to stop you from trusting your gut this time and giving her a chance? taking advice from people isn't always about majority rules,to me its about hearing the answer that you know is right for you.


----------



## chazmataz3

Also if she really wanted guy A so bad why is she spending all this time and money coming to you?


----------



## Brinseed

chazmataz3 said:


> is she willing to take a polygraph about the affairs? Would she still want to come even if you continued the divorce? You said you had a bad feeling which led to your checking up on her and your ending it?Well, your acted on your gut feelings before and now you say you have a good feeling that shes changed so whats to stop you from trusting your gut this time and giving her a chance? taking advice from people isn't always about majority rules,to me its about hearing the answer that you know is right for you.


Hang on. My gut feeling right now is that I believe she genuinely *believes* that (1) she has changed / will change, (2) she was confused and in a bad place, (3) she is now dedicated and as soon as I give the green light, will commit and move here and try hard to make it work.

At the same time though, this says nothing about her ability to follow through, or what will happen down the road. My gut also says I am scared and I remember that after I saw her last week I got a horrible sinking feeling, physically in my stomach, basically my body was panicking and saying "aaaaah run!" even though at the same exact moment my heart was saying "I love her". 

I don't know why this is so hard. I must sound crazy to spend so much time thinking about this instead of just making a decision.


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## PhillyGuy13

Dude I just read through your older post. 

Why go through all this hassle over the past 2-3 years? Please don't say love, she hasn't expressed that to you during the bulk of your marriage, by deeds or by words.

I'm assuming still no children with her. Just divorce, find a great woman who would want to spend 100% of her time with you, not keeping you on a string while she is hundreds of miles away with the flavor of the month.


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## happyman64

Brinseed

I voted yes.

Why? Because you will never know if she is the one unlss you both give it an honest effort.

Both of you together, 24x7, in one city, under one roof.

What the heck do you really have to lose. Give it a year. You both have already wasted two.

If it does not work out, you part ways and say you tried together.

I do believe people can change. I also understand how someone can be pressured under a family dynamic especially when there is a family business involved.

Your wife has two issues at play here.

Being loyal to you and being loyal to her family.

If she is willing to move and be with you then tell her to go for it.

Maybe she has finally grown up.

Do you want to find out?

HM


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## committed4ever

Brinseed, 

I voted yes but I am leaning a little toward no. Here are a couple of genuine concerns I have for you:

1. You said you are more worried about her treating you mean that cheating on you (I take that to mean you dont think she would cheat again). I think it is so hard to be married to someone who doesn't treat you well on a day to day basis. I have very good friend who is going through this with her marriage and she is so discouraged by it. There is no physical abuse or even verbal he just acts like she is an annoyance to him. 

2. She stated she was "confused" at first. Confused about what? She didn't know her behavior was inappropriate? if she truly loved you she would have had no desire to do those things with those other guys, and she would have wanted to be with you above all else. 

She may not have much character and she may not know how or either have a desire to treat you with love and respect. Since she has cheated you really have no obligation to her. 

If you wanted to give it one last shot, I understand. But you really need to be prepared that living with her 24/7 might be even worse than long distance. I have a feeling she might not treat you right over a sustained period of time. 

PLEASE DON'T HAVE CHILDREN UNTIL SHE HAS GIVEN YOU SEVERAL YEARS OF BEING A GOOD WIFE!


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## MaritimeGuy

I'm sure that she means it when she says she's changed and will not cheat on you again....now that she's facing losing you. However the big question in my mind is she capable of sticking to that. My thoughts are probably not. 

If a person is capable of cheating...they're capable of cheating. As another poster commented why take on something you know stands a good chance of failing. There are lots of great women out there more than capable of being faithful.


----------



## Jellybeans

committed4ever said:


> 1. You said you are more worried about her treating you mean that cheating on you (I take that to mean you dont think she would cheat again). I think it is so hard to be married to someone who doesn't treat you well on a day to day basis.


:iagree:


----------



## Brinseed

committed4ever said:


> PLEASE DON'T HAVE CHILDREN UNTIL SHE HAS GIVEN YOU SEVERAL YEARS OF BEING A GOOD WIFE!


Thank you so much for your thoughts.

On your caps lock comment... I am not sure we could wait several years. Her "window of opportunity" is basically now. We could wait maybe a few months. It would be awful to miss the window don't you think?

(Not that I don't take your point -- believe me, I do!!!)


----------



## Brinseed

committed4ever said:


> Brinseed,
> You said you are more worried about her treating you mean that cheating on you (I take that to mean you dont think she would cheat again). I think it is so hard to be married to someone who doesn't treat you well on a day to day basis.


She treated me well for the first few years - while we were dating. She became progressively meaner after we got married. It was very difficult to communicate or have a constructive conversation with her - she would latch on to seemingly random words, out of context, and project, and gaslight, etc. It was awful. But, when I saw her last week it was completely different. We revisited many past issues and in every single case, she responded completely differently than I had ever seen before. The question is, has she actually learned to communicate better in a way that will last? Has she actually let her guard down in a constructive way, also that will last? Or is it just fear and salesmanship? 

I have no idea why this is so hard . I thought I was done 9 months ago. I can't believe I am still spending so much emotional and mental bandwidth on her!


----------



## tom67

Read MMSLP Married Mans Sex Life Primer and you will see the mistakes many of us guys made.


----------



## treyvion

Brinseed said:


> She treated me well for the first few years - while we were dating. She became progressively meaner after we got married. It was very difficult to communicate or have a constructive conversation with her - she would latch on to seemingly random words, out of context, and project, and gaslight, etc. It was awful. But, when I saw her last week it was completely different. We revisited many past issues and in every single case, she responded completely differently than I had ever seen before. The question is, has she actually learned to communicate better in a way that will last? Has she actually let her guard down in a constructive way, also that will last? Or is it just fear and salesmanship?
> 
> I have no idea why this is so hard . I thought I was done 9 months ago. I can't believe I am still spending so much emotional and mental bandwidth on her!


It's killing you.


----------



## Jellybeans

Brinseed: what do you want?


----------



## Jellybeans

I admit I didn't read the first post...too long and I had ADHD today. Cliff's notes?


----------



## Brinseed

treyvion said:


> It's killing you.


yes!!! damn it


----------



## tom67

I think telling her she has 48 hours to come up is a good idea then you can say you gave it one last shot.
Then you can grieve and heal.


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## Brinseed

Jellybeans said:


> I admit I didn't read the first post...too long and I had ADHD today. Cliff's notes?


1. Wife would not move to my city

2. Wife became mean and belligerent

3. I suspected cheating and found plenty of bad stuff although no concrete proof that she actually consummated any transactions, so to speak

4. I left her 9 months ago. Went through hell. 

5. She says she changed, has been in therapy, working on herself, says she will move up and be with me tomorrow if i take her back, and is begging for another chance.

6. Question is (a) will she follow through given her bad track record of overpromising and underdelivering; and (b) can I go through with it and trust her again; and (c) basically what do I do?

As for "what do I want" - of course I would want to have my marriage work, and be happy. Every married man wants that. But there is huge risk that it will be bad again - i.e. she could be mean/belligerent again - and if I don't have another bunch of proof of cheating or something similar I could be trapped!


----------



## happyman64

Brinseed

Trapped?

You are already married to her.

It is your decision to take that leap of faith and decide to Reconcile with her.

But there is no guaranty your R will be successful.

So be honest with her. Discuss this with her.

YOU are now the one sitting on the fence so to speak.

Interesting turn of events.

And maybe it will become one of your biggest regrets of your life.

HM


----------



## Deejo

Few things to hopefully clarify things for you.

- You still haven't learned that hard lesson I posted about in your other thread. But you took the first step which is good.

- She knows that you are a good man. She knows that you love her, she knows that you want to trust and believe her ...
and she is using that against you. This doesn't make her remorseful. It makes her downright sinister.

- She cheated, full stop. Not once, but twice. And for the record, regardless of what she tells you through tears ... she ABSOLUTELY had sex with one or both of those other men. She isn't going to tell you, you don't want to believe it ... I don't think it would make a whit of difference in your emotional turmoil anyway. But ... she did. Seen this scripts hundreds of times. Sex, dude. It happened. And going back to the other thread, I know it was mentioned, but you seemed to gloss right over it. Have you really not considered that the pregnancy she terminated wasn't yours to begin with? 

- She hasn't changed. Not a bit. She is going through motions and paying you lip-service. I will never quite figure out why people will self-deceive in order to try and save dysfunctional circumstances. But we do.

- You won't be able to trust her. Specifically because ... she's untrustworthy.

- She claims she has changed a great deal in 9 months, please sum up if you could, how much have YOU changed in the last 9 months?

This one is going to sound mean, and I'm ok with that. I do not see why you are trying to salvage this marriage. Because from where I'm sitting, and if my math is right, this has been going on for nearly 3 years now ... you never had a marriage in the first place. Let this woman go find her 'grace' elsewhere. 

And lastly, I was in Vancouver just a few weeks ago on business. I 'Tindered' the area. DUDE ... there are hundreds of outdoorsy, creative, thoughtful, beautiful women right there in that lovely city.

Fresh start. Treat yourself right. And find a woman that thinks that you should be treated right as well.

If she does want to come see you again, tell her that's great, and you appreciate her commitment so much that you've set up an appointment for her to take a polygraph. Doesn't matter if you actually have ... just float that little gem and note her reaction.


----------



## MaritimeGuy

Brinseed said:


> 3. I suspected cheating and found plenty of bad stuff although no concrete proof that she actually consummated any transactions, so to speak


I always question this. In these situations I see a lot of energy devoted to trying to figure out if an actual physical affair happened or not. For me it doesn't matter. If your spouse tries to have an affair...whether they're successful or not is irrelevant. They put themselves in a situation where it could have. 

The evidence you have proves your wife tried to cheat on you. If you try to reconcile that is going to be in your mind every time you look at her slowly eating your guts out. It's no way to live.


----------



## tom67

Deejo said:


> Few things to hopefully clarify things for you.
> 
> - You still haven't learned that hard lesson I posted about in your other thread. But you took the first step which is good.
> 
> - She knows that you are a good man. She knows that you love her, she knows that you want to trust and believe her ...
> and she is using that against you. This doesn't make her remorseful. It makes her downright sinister.
> 
> - She cheated, full stop. Not once, but twice. And for the record, regardless of what she tells you through tears ... she ABSOLUTELY had sex with one or both of those other men. She isn't going to tell you, you don't want to believe it ... I don't think it would make a whit of difference in your emotional turmoil anyway. But ... she did. Seen this scripts hundreds of times. Sex, dude. It happened. And going back to the other thread, I know it was mentioned, but you seemed to gloss right over it. Have you really not considered that the pregnancy she terminated wasn't yours to begin with?
> 
> - She hasn't changed. Not a bit. She is going through motions and paying you lip-service. I will never quite figure out why people will self-deceive in order to try and save dysfunctional circumstances. But we do.
> 
> - You won't be able to trust her. Specifically because ... she's untrustworthy.
> 
> - She claims she has changed a great deal in 9 months, please sum up if you could, how much have YOU changed in the last 9 months?
> 
> This one is going to sound mean, and I'm ok with that. I do not see why you are trying to salvage this marriage. Because from where I'm sitting, and if my math is right, this has been going on for nearly 3 years now ... you never had a marriage in the first place. Let this woman go find her 'grace' elsewhere.
> 
> And lastly, I was in Vancouver just a few weeks ago on business. I 'Tindered' the area. DUDE ... there are hundreds of outdoorsy, creative, thoughtful, beautiful women right there in that lovely city.
> 
> Fresh start. Treat yourself right. And find a woman that thinks that you should be treated right as well.
> 
> If she does want to come see you again, tell her that's great, and you appreciate her commitment so much that you've set up an appointment for her to take a polygraph. Doesn't matter if you actually have ... just float that little gem and note her reaction.


Please read the above^^^
And get the book
The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011: Athol Kay: 9781460981733: Amazon.com: Books


----------



## jaharthur

Deejo said:


> Few things to hopefully clarify things for you.
> 
> - You still haven't learned that hard lesson I posted about in your other thread. But you took the first step which is good.
> 
> - She knows that you are a good man. She knows that you love her, she knows that you want to trust and believe her ...
> and she is using that against you. This doesn't make her remorseful. It makes her downright sinister.
> 
> - She cheated, full stop. Not once, but twice. And for the record, regardless of what she tells you through tears ... she ABSOLUTELY had sex with one or both of those other men. She isn't going to tell you, you don't want to believe it ... I don't think it would make a whit of difference in your emotional turmoil anyway. But ... she did. Seen this scripts hundreds of times. Sex, dude. It happened. And going back to the other thread, I know it was mentioned, but you seemed to gloss right over it. Have you really not considered that the pregnancy she terminated wasn't yours to begin with?
> 
> - She hasn't changed. Not a bit. She is going through motions and paying you lip-service. I will never quite figure out why people will self-deceive in order to try and save dysfunctional circumstances. But we do.
> 
> - You won't be able to trust her. Specifically because ... she's untrustworthy.
> 
> - She claims she has changed a great deal in 9 months, please sum up if you could, how much have YOU changed in the last 9 months?
> 
> This one is going to sound mean, and I'm ok with that. I do not see why you are trying to salvage this marriage. Because from where I'm sitting, and if my math is right, this has been going on for nearly 3 years now ... you never had a marriage in the first place. Let this woman go find her 'grace' elsewhere.
> 
> And lastly, I was in Vancouver just a few weeks ago on business. I 'Tindered' the area. DUDE ... there are hundreds of outdoorsy, creative, thoughtful, beautiful women right there in that lovely city.
> 
> Fresh start. Treat yourself right. And find a woman that thinks that you should be treated right as well.
> 
> If she does want to come see you again, tell her that's great, and you appreciate her commitment so much that you've set up an appointment for her to take a polygraph. Doesn't matter if you actually have ... just float that little gem and note her reaction.


Dang, man. I actually agree 100% with Deejo. Unheard of.

You need to end it now.


----------



## Deejo

jaharthur said:


> Dang, man. I actually agree 100% with Deejo. Unheard of.
> 
> You need to end it now.


LOL.

Brinseed, lots of folks recommend MMSLP in the book department. It's good to have, but for cases like yours, and more so just for you than your marriage, I recommend "Hold Onto Your N.U.T's" by Levine.


----------



## Brinseed

Deejo said:


> LOL.
> 
> Brinseed, lots of folks recommend MMSLP in the book department. It's good to have, but for cases like yours, and more so just for you than your marriage, I recommend "Hold Onto Your N.U.T's" by Levine.


Thanks guys. I read both, actually - in both cases about a year and a half ago, around the time I started my first thread on this site.


----------



## Deejo

Then you know what you should do, you're just having a hard time getting your heart onboard.

That's understandable. I had the same issue.

I do hope the input here helps.

Regardless of what you choose, you will get the support you need.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Brinseed said:


> I would love to know how you would see my situation with my ex. I feel so torn.
> 
> Here's what happened:
> 
> 1. We had a very rough long distance marriage (me in Vancouver, and her in San Jose) that lasted 2 years before I ended it with her. The main problem was that she continually, angrily resisted moving to Vancouver to be with me, even though that was our plan.
> 
> 2. About a year into it, thanks to advice that I got from this great forum (thanks guys!), I tried being more firm and setting clearer expectations and boundaries. This had mixed results.
> 
> 3. I began suspecting that she was being unfaithful, and I got paranoid about it. I couldn't afford a PI but I did some digital sleuthing I don't feel good about having done that, by the way. I remember feeling that I wished I would find something incriminating, because this would give me an honorable way to bow out. (Sick, I know.) I found the following:
> 
> a. She had quite a few encounters, and many conversations, with a guy (let's call him "Guy A"). There was a text from her to a friend of hers saying "I'm in love with Guy A, what do I do?". I know she went to his house for dinner several times. I know that at least once, she stayed over at his place - this was after a music festival, possibly with her cousin also being there. Also, she changed his name on her phone contact list.
> 
> b. Another guy ("Guy B") is an older gentleman, a mentor of hers that I have known about forever but, unlike Guy A, I didn't suspect anything. She tried to arrange to meet Guy B in two foreign places (one where she went for a wedding and another for work). She also sent him a very... intimate picture, after he requested it, and a very suggestive text that basically was an invitation fondle her, um, above-the-waist intimate parts. I don't think they actually got together or did anything.
> 
> c. She said to various people that she was not in love anymore, doubtful about the marriage, didn't want to live where I lived, etc. She also talked about how she had to make a 'decision', i.e., a decision about whether to leave me or not. ​
> 4. When I found all of this I thought long and hard about it all, and finally decided I had to put an end to it. After seeing what I saw, I was certain it would be mutual. I packed all her things into boxes and booked myself a roundtrip, same day flight to end it. Much to my surprise, she tried very hard to talk me out of it. For each thing that I mentioned I knew about or saw, she said there was an explanation - e.g. she didn't mean it, she was confused, etc., let's work on it, etc. I told her I made my decision, and the best I could do was think about it for a few days. She tried to get me stay overnight but I wouldn't.
> 
> 5. Fast forward 9 months. It looks like our breakup genuinely was a traumatic and life-changing event for her.
> a. She has sent letters, flowers, gifts etc. For the first few months it was continuous but I didn't reply or respond and so it quieted down. She flew up 3 times to try to talk me out of it.
> 
> b. She says she was wrong about not wanting to live here, she was torn and confused etc., trying to please both me and her family, which she now sees was a mistake (for context - she works for her family business in San Jose). She says if I take her back she will immediately move here to be with me, and forever will live anywhere I want.
> 
> c. She has been in therapy, working with 3 therapists, working on herself and the issues that she now says she sees drove her to behave badly. She also has taken up meditation and kundalini yoga, which she says has changed her profoundly.
> 
> d. Finally she said she was coming up here and she would really like to meet with me and talk. I relented and saw her 3 times, to hear her out. I tried very hard to gauge whether she is being genuine and whether I can trust her. I have to say that she seems to really have had a personal transformation of sorts. She was listening, and empathetic, and seemed genuinely remorseful. She asked again and again for me to give her a chance. I initially said no and then I said I could think it over and I need a week or so.
> 
> e. It's been a week. I am really torn. I still love her but I am deeply afraid that if I give her this chance, things will be the same as before, except that somehow I will now be trapped.​
> 6. I should add that in addition to our problems that I've brought to this forum, we had many great times together, excellent chemistry, and shared interests, and she generally has a lovely personality.
> 
> I feel guilty and I love her, and I care about keeping my commitments especially in this context. If somehow we could get past our incredibly rough start, and be happy together, that would be a dream for me. But the odds seem to be badly against it working out, and I really don't want to go through the heartache and disappointment and guilt of breaking up again.
> 
> Would you give this woman a chance?


Have you ever read the real story of Mark Anthony and Cleopatra?

Certain types of women can have that effect on some men.

But in the end , they destroy the men and then themselves.

Sometimes you have to think for yourself and of yourself.


----------



## Jellybeans

Brinseed said:


> 1. Wife would not move to my city
> 
> 2. Wife became mean and belligerent
> 
> 3. I suspected cheating and found plenty of bad stuff although no concrete proof that she actually consummated any transactions, so to speak
> 
> 4. I left her 9 months ago. Went through hell.
> 
> 5. She says she changed, has been in therapy, working on herself, says she will move up and be with me tomorrow if i take her back, and is begging for another chance.
> 
> 6. Question is (a) will she follow through given her bad track record of overpromising and underdelivering; and (b) can I go through with it and trust her again; and (c) basically what do I do?
> 
> As for "what do I want" - of course I would want to have my marriage work, and be happy. Every married man wants that. But there is huge risk that it will be bad again - i.e. she could be mean/belligerent again - and if I don't have another bunch of proof of cheating or something similar I could be trapped!


Thanks for breaking it down. If you want to reconcile, then do it, but make sure you have strong boundaries in place. Both of you.What you will/won't put up with/what you need to make it work for you to be happy.

Professional counselling is a good idea too.


----------



## Openminded

Did I read correctly? You can't wait a few years to have children if you R because her "window of opportunity is now" so you can only wait a few months? That's a scary thought to R with someone and immediately go into total baby mode without knowing if you have a good chance of making it, don't you think? Divorce with a child to consider is a great deal harder than divorce without one.


----------



## Brinseed

Openminded said:


> Did I read correctly? You can't wait a few years to have children if you R because her "window of opportunity is now" so you can only wait a few months? That's a scary thought to R with someone and immediately go into total baby mode without knowing if you have a good chance of making it, don't you think? Divorce with a child to consider is a great deal harder than divorce without one.


Point taken but what other option do I have? If (assuming we give it a chance... which I am not at all sure about) I wait a few years and then we can't have kids at all that would be awful don't you think?


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

Brinseed said:


> Point taken but what other option do I have? If (assuming we give it a chance... which I am not at all sure about) I wait a few years and then we can't have kids at all that would be awful don't you think?


Yeah, that would suck. Your other option is to find a woman who doesnt have this problem and who doesnt cheat on you.

You are not responsible for her breeding problems. She- I gaurantee- was trying to breed (consciously or not) with another man. If she wanted one with you so bad, she would have been loyal to you and youd have little reason not to.

Run. You are valuable enough as a man to find another woman who treats you with respect. Do not settle with this cheater and become trapped by a narcissist.


----------



## Brinseed

Deejo, 

Thank you 1,000 times over for your thoughtful advice, both a year ago and again now. I have some clarification questions for you if that's OK.



Deejo said:


> Few things to hopefully clarify things for you.
> 
> - You still haven't learned that hard lesson I posted about in your other thread. But you took the first step which is good.


Doing my best. Trying to be a good man and do the right thing and also stay sane.



Deejo said:


> - She cheated, full stop. Not once, but twice. And for the record, regardless of what she tells you through tears ... she ABSOLUTELY had sex with one or both of those other men. She isn't going to tell you, you don't want to believe it ... I don't think it would make a whit of difference in your emotional turmoil anyway. But ... she did. Seen this scripts hundreds of times. Sex, dude. It happened.


I dunno. I did a shamefully thorough job hacking/sleuthing. I left very few stones unturned if any at all. I won't get into details but it was comprehensive. 

I do, however, think it would make a huge difference if I knew with certainty that she had sex - because if I did, that would give me absolute proof that she is lying, and if I had that, then this would be an easy decision. 

(As for your other suggestion about the termination - the timing doesn't line up. From what I can tell.)



Deejo said:


> - She hasn't changed. Not a bit. She is going through motions and paying you lip-service. I will never quite figure out why people will self-deceive in order to try and save dysfunctional circumstances. But we do.


I am curious as to why you are so sure she hasn't changed. That's what I'm trying to figure out. I was extremely skeptical until I saw her and found that she had a completely different approach to our conversations than I had ever seen before. Also she says she has been in a lot of therapy, working specifically on these issues. What am I missing - what makes you so sure? What questions should I be asking to figure this out?



Deejo said:


> - She claims she has changed a great deal in 9 months, please sum up if you could, how much have YOU changed in the last 9 months?


My self-confidence has gone up a lot. Or rather, it has "mostly recovered" from the low I had hit. 


Anyways, sorry for the long replies and going-in-circles.


----------



## luvinhim

Please do not reconcile with her. You are headed for trouble. She wants a baby right away. Red flag. She wants to cement you into the marriage with a baby. She know you will never leave your child.

I guarantee you she will change after the baby. She will move back home with the baby and start to be mean again. She will also take you to court for child support.

You say her family is well off and the family will want to see the baby. She will have all the support of her family and she will turn one you.

But you are not going to take TAM's advise. You are going to take her back. Things will go well for a while...until she is pregnant and you will be right back here telling us that she refuses to have sex (she will sex you to death until she gets pregnant!!!!!!!!) 

Trust and believe TAM family members. They have given some awesome adivse and have been correct 99..9% of the time.

She is tugging at your heart strings...cut them lose


----------



## Openminded

Brinseed said:


> Point taken but what other option do I have? If (assuming we give it a chance... which I am not at all sure about) I wait a few years and then we can't have kids at all that would be awful don't you think?


What option do you have? You don't R with her. What is she going to do if you decline her offer -- find someone else within the next few months to get her pregnant? Right now you have the perfect opportunity to make a clean break and find someone else. Divorce is far harder with a child. 

The odds that she didn't have sex with that guy are small. You want a smoking gun but there isn't one. You'll have to do what some of the rest of us did, if it comes down to it, and that's divorce without one hundred percent proof it was physical. 

Yes, some cheaters change. And some don't. And some perhaps want to but can't seem to. Marriage is always a gamble but the odds for failure are obviously higher when your spouse has cheated. Are they truly remorseful or will it happen again? I spent 30 years in R before finally ending it. Some R's succeed and a lot don't.


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## superettefun

Dude, were you ever happy in the marriage? Did YOU ever cheat on her? 

You love her, fine. Love is the easy part. Love isn't enough to make you happy or make it work.


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## soccermom2three

I don't understand what she's getting out of this marriage? 

Why is she trying so hard to stay married yet she wants to live a single life in another town?

She marries you but doesn't want to live with you. 

She's wealthy so she doesn't need your money. 

She's interested in other men. Why doesn't she just move on? I don't get it. Is divorce a big deal in her family? 

Doesn't her family and friends wonder why she's not living with her husband? What about your family and friends?

Sorry but the whole thing is just bizarre. 

I don't know maybe you should tell her she needs to move to where you are and try actually living together for one year without any trips home and see what happens. Do NOT get her pregnant. How old are the both of you?


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## Brinseed

soccermom2three said:


> I don't understand what she's getting out of this marriage?
> 
> Why is she trying so hard to stay married yet she wants to live a single life in another town?


I know right?? I didn't get it either. She just wanted to live down South I guess, and she wanted that more than being with me. Back then she would say it was her career and also she hated the weather in Canada. Who knows. But then when she actually lost me, suddenly she says she realizes she was wrong all along and was confused and was scared etc. etc. etc. 



soccermom2three said:


> She marries you but doesn't want to live with you.
> 
> She's wealthy so she doesn't need your money.
> 
> She's interested in other men. Why doesn't she just move on? I don't get it. Is divorce a big deal in her family?


I am just as confused as you! I was certain it would be mutual, given how unhappy she told everyone she was. I never expected her to react this way.



soccermom2three said:


> Doesn't her family and friends wonder why she's not living with her husband? What about your family and friends?


Are you kidding? This is what everyone wonders about and asks. For two years, every ****tail party or work event, I had to explain to people why I'm married but she lives so far away. At first it was easy to explain - simply "she's moving up here soon" - but became progressively more ridiculous.



soccermom2three said:


> Sorry but the whole thing is just bizarre.


I know!! To make things weirder she told me she has not been dating at all for the last 9 months. (Of course now I don't assume that's necessarily true. But who knows! Maybe?)



soccermom2three said:


> I don't know maybe you should tell her she needs to move to where you are and try actually living together for one year without any trips home and see what happens. Do NOT get her pregnant. How old are the both of you?


That's what I'm considering doing, although I have to say, it would not be rational. Every time I think I've made up my mind though, I end up torn again. There's a lot of risk, as I see it. I'm 32 and she is 34.


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## happyman64

Brinseed

I will say it again.

People do change. Some people actually want to be a better person, go get counseling, listen to the advice they are given, follow that advice in life and live productive, happy lives.

While you want to ascertain if your wife had sex with these OM take her for a polygraph. If she truly wants to be with you then she will do it for you or come clean.

IMO I would give the marriage a try.

But I totally understand why people tell you to run now.

Hold her feet to the fire.

Or walk away. Your choice.

HM


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## soccermom2three

Okay, I understand now. She wants a baby. If you divorce her she has to start ALL over again finding another husband to start a family. That could be years from now. That's why she's trying to hold on to you.


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## GusPolinski

soccermom2three said:


> okay, i understand now. She wants a baby. If you divorce her she has to start all over again finding another husband to start a family. That could be years from now. That's why she's trying to hold on to you.


Yep! She's had her fill of Mr. Neck Tattoo, Mr. Personal Trainer Bad Boy, Mr. Random Internet C*ck, etc, and she's finally ready to settle down and start a family w/ Mr. Mild-Mannered Beta Provider... whom she married years ago.

In other words, it's not the fond memory of ringing wedding bells that she's hearing -- it's the ever-present tick tock tick tock tick tock of her biological clock.


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## Brinseed

soccermom2three said:


> Okay, I understand now. She wants a baby. If you divorce her she has to start ALL over again finding another husband to start a family. That could be years from now. That's why she's trying to hold on to you.


Yes.


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## Quant

No.


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## RandomDude

So... in addition to the lies she wants to ring the baby bells as soon as possible?

Hmmm, I wonder how "remorseful" she would be if you told her that you're not interested in having children with her in the near future until she's regained your trust again.


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## WorkingOnMe

Polygraph.


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## GusPolinski

Tell her that you've decided to get a vasectomy. See what she says then.


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## treyvion

RandomDude said:


> So... in addition to the lies she wants to ring the baby bells as soon as possible?
> 
> Hmmm, I wonder how "remorseful" she would be if you told her that you're not interested in having children with her in the near future until she's regained your trust again.



If your going to go back with her, you could just have a couple of affairs of your own.


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## GusPolinski

treyvion said:


> If your going to go back with her, you could just have a couple of affairs of your own.


Terrible idea, IMO. If you're going to commit reconciliation, then _*commit to reconciliation*_. None of this half in, half out bullsh*t.


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## SamuraiJack

Personally, I would tell her that she can can have a shot at me if she wants, but Im not going to "commit" to anything. 
If she wants you, then she can move to where you are and initiate the courtship.
Im not saying mislead her or anything.
Im saying she was the root cause of all this and if she is truly remorseful, then she should be the one to fix it.

My guess is that if you give her this answer, she will waffle.


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## Brinseed

GusPolinski said:


> Tell her that you've decided to get a vasectomy. See what she says then.


Ha. I don't think so. I want kids too. I know that only women are "supposed to" have a clock or feel that there is a time pressure but I feel that way too. I would never get a vasectomy or delay kids for more than the minimum due diligence period.


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## GusPolinski

Brinseed said:


> Ha. I don't think so. I want kids too. I know that only women are "supposed to" have a clock or feel that there is a time pressure but I feel that way too. I would never get a vasectomy or delay kids for more than the minimum due diligence period.


You misunderstood me. _I didn't say that you should actually get a vasectomy_, only that you should tell her that you've decided to do so. Tell her this, and then wait for her reaction... it should be very telling.

And always remember this -- between the two of you, _hers is likely the clock that is *really* ticking._ You can always find a younger (and much more loyal!) wife.


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## Brinseed

GusPolinski said:


> You misunderstood me. _I didn't say that you should actually get a vasectomy_, only that you should tell her that you've decided to do so. Tell her this, and then wait for her reaction... it should be very telling.
> 
> And always remember this -- between the two of you, _hers is likely the clock that is *really* ticking._ You can always find a younger (and much more loyal!) wife.


I get it, but there are two problems: (1) I think more lies are not a good idea, even white lies; and (2) despite her bad track record for loyalty, I am extremely loyal and so it is very, very hard for me ignore her side of our balance sheet. (Hence agonizing over it so much, damn it! Arghhhhh)

Thank you for listening. It is so frustrating, I keep going in circles, every time I think I've made a decision I just go in another circle all over again.


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## Brinseed

superettefun said:


> Dude, were you ever happy in the marriage? Did YOU ever cheat on her?
> 
> You love her, fine. Love is the easy part. Love isn't enough to make you happy or make it work.


Obviously, if I didn't love her, this would be a very easy decision. Love is a huge problem for me right now. 

And no I didn't cheat.


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## Ripper

You have everyone's opinion, the poll numbers are pretty damning. She already showed you who she really is. 

This is my take on it.

You are going to rug-sweep this and knock her up. She is going to quit work, move to you, and eventually have the kid. In less than two years, she will be bored and start back to her old tricks again. The difference this time is that she has you anchored with a child and big daddy government is going to make sure they are taken care of. 

Enjoy losing half or more of everything. Enjoy the alimony payments, so she can pay for her new alpha thug. Enjoy paying child support for a kid you never see because she took him back home and you have to work 24/7 to pay for all of it. Enjoy your new one room apartment and junk car.

When the equation you make life decisions on looks like this;

Feels > Logic = Course of action

You end up screwed.


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## nuclearnightmare

Brinseed said:


> I get it, but there are two problems: (1) I think more lies are not a good idea, even white lies; and (2) despite her bad track record for loyalty, I am extremely loyal and so it is very, very hard for me ignore her side of our balance sheet. (Hence agonizing over it so much, damn it! Arghhhhh)
> 
> Thank you for listening. It is so frustrating, I keep going in circles, every time I think I've made a decision I just go in another circle all over again.


love is a choice. people chose to fall in love and when they deem it necessary, they choose to detach/fall out of love. You both want children in the near future. Just as you're reaching the inescapable conclusion of how deficient she is as a wife, as a mother and as a human being - you'll find yourself invested in one or more children with her, in a marriage that has become unbearable. 

Your emotional investment in her has a marginal upside, while having a devastaing downside. You are flirting with disaster. REAL DISASTER.


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## Brinseed

nuclearnightmare said:


> love is a choice.


Ha. I wish!



nuclearnightmare said:


> Your emotional investment in her has a marginal upside, while having a devastaing downside.


Ugh you're right.


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## WorkingOnMe

One thing is clear, when you make the wrong decision here (and trust me, you will) you can never come back crying about it. You can never claim you weren't warned.


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## GusPolinski

Brinseed said:


> I get it, but there are two problems: (1) I think more lies are not a good idea, even white lies; and (2) despite her bad track record for loyalty, I am extremely loyal and so it is very, very hard for me ignore her side of our balance sheet. (Hence agonizing over it so much, damn it! Arghhhhh)
> 
> Thank you for listening. It is so frustrating, I keep going in circles, every time I think I've made a decision I just go in another circle all over again.


Believe me, I understand. But you need to consider the very real possibility that she is looking to use your loyal nature to serve her own interests.


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## Brinseed

WorkingOnMe said:


> One thing is clear, when you make the wrong decision here (and trust me, you will) you can never come back crying about it. You can never claim you weren't warned.


Is that the typical pattern on TAM?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Not the typical pattern. Will you "I told you so"? Of course one anywhere else. 

You can always come back and you will always get solid Advice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## vellocet

Brinseed said:


> Would you give this woman a chance?


Absolutely f***ing not. She doesn't deserve it.


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## treyvion

GusPolinski said:


> Terrible idea, IMO. If you're going to commit reconciliation, then _*commit to reconciliation*_. None of this half in, half out bullsh*t.


It's not half in and half out.

Letting a cheater come back unblemished and trying to "earn" them back is kind of stupid. At least level the situation out first. 

If she's allowed to come back after cheating on him it's almost as if she is doing him a favour.


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## TheWon%

tom67 said:


> Brin...
> POLYGRAPH!!!
> Or at least the threat of one.:banghead::banghead::wtf:



Ummmmmmmmm SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO THISSSSSSSSSSS! ^ 

Make her take a Polygraph, people are pathological liars when they think they can get away with it. Plus it will put you at rest on these other issues. I wouldn't bear to go on with everything you said about the other men. If she refuses dump her, if she fails dump her, if she passes dump her, divorce her and protect your assets. If she were to pass it maybe you can reconcile later, but divorce her anyway until you do. Oh and PS on women lying there is a women on here that I know and I know the background on her marriage and I watch her tell blatant twisted lies in the forums about her marriage, so it's not so much a surprise that she does this in person either..... I'm sure it happens with 90% of the women on here.


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## Brinseed

Can somebody please explain why a polygraph is a good idea? I thought those were easy to pass with practice, that there were many false positives and false negatives etc. 

More importantly - does anyone know of a story analogous to mine - where one of the partners had a general bad/belligerent attitude (not just cheating but the meanness and the selfish approach to the relationship) - where things actually worked out well in the end? I know the chances are low but I'd like to know if they are above zero. Like - I know that relationships can heal after a one-off incident or something of that nature but what about from someone having a negative and hostile approach over a prolonged period of time? 

I looked around on these forums and haven't found anything, hence my question.


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## MaritimeGuy

Personally for me if you feel the need to invoke a polygraph test (not that I would have a clue where one goes to get such a thing) then there is not enough trust there for a marriage to exist anyhow. Even if she's telling the truth but your gut tells she's not your gut is in just as many knots. 

Trust is a two pronged thing. On one hand she needs to be trustworthy and on the other you need to be trusting. If either one of those is missing the trust is broken.


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## Almostrecovered

WorkingOnMe said:


> One thing is clear, when you make the wrong decision here (and trust me, you will) you can never come back crying about it. You can never claim you weren't warned.


never stopped anyone before


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## Deejo

Lots of the suggestions here are done half tongue-in-cheek ... half.

The reference to a polygraph is a result that most of the respondents here do not believe that your wife has been fully open and honest with you.

We tend to throw around a lot of professional opinions without actually being professionals. Why should a little thing like that stop us after all?

Bottom line, I have seen dozens of relationships just like yours in my tenure here. And the short of it is, no, I have never seen one 'turn around'.

I have seen them settle into codependent enablement, tolerance and dysfunction, but seldom become balanced, healthy relationships with both partners contributing to the health of the relationship. The onus to keep things in 'check' almost always falls to one of the partners more than the other.

That would be you, in this case.

Let's cut to it, shall we?

Staying with this woman is bad for you. You know this. Yet ... you either love her desperately despite all of her bad behavior, or you are afraid of letting go and having no one. There usually isn't a lot of middle ground between those poles. Often, both are in play.

The truth is until the two of you are living together day in and day out, going about the business of actually being married and in the same household, you really don't know what's in the cards. But, you have previously indicated when living in exactly those circumstances her behavior and treatment of you was ... worse.

You have a very young marriage and relationship, with a boat-load of problems. Many people may find it admirable that you want to dig in your heels and fix it.

I'm not one of them.

I am not in favor of throwing marriages away. When I believe there is a marriage worth saving. 
If you felt compelled to tell me that there was a time when your marriage ... not your relationship, was great, and both of you had the mutual support and admiration of the other, then I may encourage you to try and find that place again. But I haven't heard you say that. So I don't know.

It is often almost comical that despite thousands of people coming here and posting their circumstances and believing that they, their partner, and those circumstances are unique ... they actually aren't. 

We use the term script here quite often.

And you my friend are smack in the middle of one.

And the script says, if you take this woman back, it will indeed look like a great decision for a relatively brief time. And in the that time, she gets pregnant ... again. She will keep the baby this time because she wants to keep you. And your relationship, and your sense of worth will simply begin to deteriorate once she has the baby to focus her attention on ... and you to meet her, and the child's needs.

Your call.

Despite your poll, looks like you are trending towards reconcilation.


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## tom67

I hope you realize one day the fact that you love her way more than she loves you.
Deejo gave you some things to think about.
She probably has very little respect for you because you have put up with this for so long.
That's all I have and wish you luck.


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## Brinseed

Deejo said:


> Bottom line, I have seen dozens of relationships just like yours in my tenure here. And the short of it is, no, I have never seen one 'turn around'.


Wow. That is the most sobering thing in this whole thread.


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## treyvion

tom67 said:


> I hope you realize one day the fact that you love her way more than she loves you.
> Deejo gave you some things to think about.
> She probably has very little respect for you because you have put up with this for so long.
> That's all I have and wish you luck.


And she doesn't "try" to not have the respect. It's a sum culmination of your interactions that defines that.

It also depends on WHAT she respects.

Some folks respect someone who will put them in their place and will carry out their threats.

Others respect people who treat them well and also respect them.

How would you get your respect back? Argue, plead, use logic to explain it? 

Doesn't work. The best thing you can do if you lost it with one is to minimize your communication and start respecting yourself. That person may NEVER respect you again, it is possible.

But you can respect yourself. And your life will benefit from this.


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## Brinseed

treyvion said:


> And she doesn't "try" to not have the respect. It's a sum culmination of your interactions that defines that.
> 
> It also depends on WHAT she respects.
> 
> Some folks respect someone who will put them in their place and will carry out their threats.
> 
> Others respect people who treat them well and also respect them.
> 
> How would you get your respect back? Argue, plead, use logic to explain it?
> 
> Doesn't work. The best thing you can do if you lost it with one is to minimize your communication and start respecting yourself. That person may NEVER respect you again, it is possible.


I've done the whole "stand up to her" / "man up" thing. That was the subject of my first thread here, back in December 2012. It didn't work very well, or at least not as well as I'd hoped. Then I left her and didn't see her for 9 months (until last week). I'm pretty sure she respects me now. 






treyvion said:


> But you can respect yourself. And your life will benefit from this.


You're so right. And I do. That's why she isn't living in my house right now. I'm taking her request for reconciliation seriously because she's still my wife, after all, and for better or worse I love this woman. But I'm taking my time to answer, when I'm ready, and if I give her a chance - which I am still 50/50 on - it will be on my terms. I would not let her simply right back in under any circumstances. I may not give her a chance at all. I'll know when I know and if she doesn't like that, she's more than welcome to move on.

And you know what? That's one good thing that has come out of this for me. I do respect myself more now. I do set boundaries and I have a better sense of what I want and need for myself and for my future family/eventual kids. And that's a good thing isn't it? 

I don't know why everyone here takes all the time out of their days to help people like me. Maybe after this (during this?) I'll become more active myself and try to help others. But you guys are saints.


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## Brinseed

tom67 said:


> I hope you realize one day the fact that you love her way more than she loves you.
> Deejo gave you some things to think about.
> She probably has very little respect for you because you have put up with this for so long.
> That's all I have and wish you luck.


Thanks.


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## GusPolinski

Brinseed said:


> I've done the whole "stand up to her" / "man up" thing. That was the subject of my first thread here, back in December 2012. It didn't work very well, or at least not as well as I'd hoped. Then I left her and didn't see her for 9 months (until last week). I'm pretty sure she respects me now.
> 
> You're so right. And I do. That's why she isn't living in my house right now. *I'm taking her request for reconciliation seriously because she's still my wife, after all, and for better or worse I love this woman. But I'm taking my time to answer, when I'm ready, and if I give her a chance - which I am still 50/50 on - it will be on my terms. I would not let her simply right back in under any circumstances.* I may not give her a chance at all. I'll know when I know and if she doesn't like that, she's more than welcome to move on.
> 
> And you know what? That's one good thing that has come out of this for me. I do respect myself more now. I do set boundaries and I have a better sense of what I want and need for myself and for my future family/eventual kids. And that's a good thing isn't it?
> 
> I don't know why everyone here takes all the time out of their days to help people like me. Maybe after this (during this?) I'll become more active myself and try to help others. But you guys are saints.


Then allow me to point you back to this...



GusPolinski said:


> Maybe try a compromise... tell her that, while you're open to reconciliation, given her infidelities, you're still struggling w/ the notion of trusting her again and, as such, you're going to push forward w/ the divorce in order to protect your assets by "stopping the clock" on alimony/spousal support.
> 
> Once the divorce is final, the two of you can begin dating again and reassess at the end of a year. And, obviously, this will mean that she needs to relocate to Vancouver. If, after a year, you feel that she's been honest, transparent, and faithful, you will consider remarriage.
> 
> If she balks at this proposal, or points out that she's risking an awful lot for the chance that you might be willing to remarry her at some point, you can point out that a) her hesitation would seem to suggest that she's not at all remorseful for her infidelities and b) you were risking no less when she reneged on her agreement to relocate to Vancouver.


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## Fozzy

IF you take her back--and you probably shouldn't--it needs to hinge on passing a polygraph about the physical nature and duration of all affairs. She should also publicly confess all affairs to her family and announce her intentions of making it right, then immediately get herself into marriage counseling.

That said, I still don't think it's a good idea. NOTHING reprioritizes things like having a child. She may actually believe she's going to give it 100% toward the relationship, but i guarantee that once a baby arrives, you're getting downgraded on her list of priorities. The stress, body changes, hormonal changes, etc etc etc.....she's not going to be able to give enough effort to the relationship to save it. She's just not.

The possible negatives far outweigh the possible positives here. Find yourself a nice canuck.


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## Caribbean Man

Deejo said:


> And the script says, if you take this woman back, it will indeed look like a great decision for a relatively brief time. And in the that time, she gets pregnant ... again. She will keep the baby this time because she wants to keep you. And your relationship, and your sense of worth will simply begin to deteriorate once she has the baby to focus her attention on ... and you to meet her, and the child's needs.
> 
> Your call.
> 
> Despite your poll, looks like you are trending towards reconcilation.


And that's why I asked in my previous post if he'd ever read the story of Mark Anthony and Cleopatra.

Relationships with that type of dynamic never end well.


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## treyvion

Brinseed said:


> I've done the whole "stand up to her" / "man up" thing. That was the subject of my first thread here, back in December 2012. It didn't work very well, or at least not as well as I'd hoped. Then I left her and didn't see her for 9 months (until last week). I'm pretty sure she respects me now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're so right. And I do. That's why she isn't living in my house right now. I'm taking her request for reconciliation seriously because she's still my wife, after all, and for better or worse I love this woman. But I'm taking my time to answer, when I'm ready, and if I give her a chance - which I am still 50/50 on - it will be on my terms. I would not let her simply right back in under any circumstances. I may not give her a chance at all. I'll know when I know and if she doesn't like that, she's more than welcome to move on.
> 
> And you know what? That's one good thing that has come out of this for me. I do respect myself more now. I do set boundaries and I have a better sense of what I want and need for myself and for my future family/eventual kids. And that's a good thing isn't it?
> 
> I don't know why everyone here takes all the time out of their days to help people like me. Maybe after this (during this?) I'll become more active myself and try to help others. But you guys are saints.


It's so tough to corral someone who has disrespected you so and kinda built up a strength in maintaining that power inbalance.

I'm not sure I would chance it. There are women in this world who would be submissive to you and make you a better man across the board, and you won't have to play power games with them.

My estimation is when you get her back, things will be fine at first but slowly deteriorate to where they were. It's like they say, you like her more than she likes you.

If you like you first and maybe treat her like a single lady you do some business with, you might be able to preserve yourself. But you gotta be willing to ditch her or stop doing things for her if things aren't working out.


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## Hopeful Cynic

Marriage is one of those things you have to be 100% committed to.

The fact that she never moved to live with you as originally planned and then had affairy type behaviour tells me that she isn't 100% committed. If she has changed and is now 100% committed, she would be moving to Vancouver on her own and renting an apartment or staying in a hotel (since she can afford it) to try to convince you of her commitment in person.

The fact that you are not sure what to do and need to come here for advice tells me that you are not 100% committed either.

Or, you could try it for a year, and see what happens. If she can sustain this magical change that happened in nine months for another year, who knows? Just don't do the pregnancy until and unless that year is your long-overdue happily wedded honeymoon bliss.

Can she spend that year away from her family and making your marriage her first priority? Can you spend that year believing her instead of wondering if you can trust her?

Of course, breaking up with her after a year that didn't turn out so magical will be ten times harder than what is happening now.

Also, why can't you move to California? Why does she have to be the one to move? I can see resentment on her part for making all the sacrifices spoiling the whole thing. Heck, if she's that wealthy, have two homes. Live together in Vancouver in summer, and in California in winter. If you haven't even considered these things as alternatives, then I do wonder how mutually beneficial a marriage you ever had in the first place.


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