# Codependence vs. Crazy



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

I'm going to single out Orpheus and Nsweet here for a bit. I'm sure those two gentlemen won't mind.

They were bantering back and forth about "shrink4men.com". I know Lifescript has looked the place over and I've brushed up against it from time to time. But, being the cheap SOB that I am, I didn't feel like being solicited for funds.

This time I looked closer - and I ran across this article.

http://www.shrink4men.com/2012/03/0...-why-she-wont-be-different-with-the-next-guy/

While I laughed at some of it, I'm concerned about the message. 

I read it as men are victims of crazy women.

It's not nearly that simple.

You see, what men are AFTER is attraction, hot sex, playful companionship, yes... blow jobs, and admiration.

Given that I firmly believe attraction is subconscious, we shouldn't be so quick to label the other person as "crazy" before we find out if "crazy about us" is really part of the mix.

I think the article lets guys off the hook.


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Conrad said:


> I'm going to single out Orpheus and Nsweet here for a bit. I'm sure those two gentlemen won't mind.
> 
> They were bantering back and forth about "shrink4men.com". I know Lifescript has looked the place over and I've brushed up against it from time to time. But, being the cheap SOB that I am, I didn't feel like being solicited for funds.
> 
> ...


Some men are in fact "victims" of crazy-making woman.

But nothing was done to such men that they did not allow or participate in.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Conrad said:


> I'm going to single out Orpheus and Nsweet here for a bit. I'm sure those two gentlemen won't mind.
> 
> They were bantering back and forth about "shrink4men.com". I know Lifescript has looked the place over and I've brushed up against it from time to time. But, being the cheap SOB that I am, I didn't feel like being solicited for funds.
> 
> ...


Some men are in fact "victims" of crazy-making woman.

But nothing was done to such men that they did not allow or participate in.

In that sense, it is perhaps more accurate to refer them as "volunteers".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

spun said:


> Some men are in fact "victims" of crazy-making woman.
> 
> But nothing was done to such men that they did not allow or participate in.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Exactly Spun.

AND... if we throw crazy aside without observing ourselves - and IMPROVING ourselves - we lather, rinse, repeat.

And, the next one will likely be craziER.

Your case always made me wonder what would have happened had she seen through posOM.

I'm really sorry we couldn't make that happen.


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Exactly Spun.
> 
> AND... if we throw crazy aside without observing ourselves - and IMPROVING ourselves - we lather, rinse, repeat.
> 
> And, the next one will likely be craziER.


Its the observing ourselves that is the challenge.

My ex is the queen of crazy making...

But only because I allowed her to send me into a tail spin.

I have learned my lesson the hard way.

I had to stop looking for somewhere else to lay the blame.

We can never truely be free if we are not willing to get "real" with ourselves.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Check out Katy's thread for a current example.

Look at the codependent tendencies in her honest assessment of self.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

BTW - I find most people are far too timid and frightened to wake up. It's much more comfy to remain asleep.

But, you'll be SO much happier now.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

spun said:


> Some men are in fact "victims" of crazy-making woman.
> 
> But nothing was done to such men that they did not allow or participate in.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Could not agree more. Like you said, attraction is subconscious. These men are attracted to that type of women. They allow it and then complain when they turn crazy. 

This is coming from someone that knows that all too well.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Hermes said:


> Could not agree more. Like you said, attraction is subconscious. These men are attracted to that type of women. They allow it and then complain when they turn crazy.
> 
> This is coming from someone that knows that all too well.


My purpose here is to find out if those women are attracted to you.

If they're not, then it's safe to let them go.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Conrad said:


> My purpose here is to find out if those women are attracted to you.
> 
> If they're not, then it's safe to let them go.


I would assume they are. I will go back to the fact that attraction is subconscious. They, most likely, find themselves attracted to guys that will put up with their craziness. Just like I am attracted to women that will put up with my codependent tendencies (still working on them  ).


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Hermes said:


> I would assume they are. I will go back to the fact that attraction is subconscious. They, most likely, find themselves attracted to guys that will put up with their craziness. Just like I am attracted to women that will put up with my codependent tendencies (still working on them  ).


This is the point I'm driving at.

Crazy-making women ARE attracted to enablers. But, as we've both found out, that's not sustainable.

But, have the courage to peel away the enabling. Have the courage to find out what's under that.

Here's what it comes down to. Some of us experience an increase in our wives desire to bang us AFTER we stop enabling.

That's the best indicator of what you should do going forward.


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Conrad said:


> This is the point I'm driving at.
> 
> Crazy-making women ARE attracted to enablers. But, as we've both found out, that's not sustainable.
> 
> ...


Enabling is needy.

And guess what?

Chicks don't like to bang needy men.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

spun said:


> Enabling is needy.
> 
> And guess what?
> 
> ...


The thing is, they probably dont realize that is the issue. So what do they do? They find another person that will enable them and end up in the same situation. 

I agree with Conrad that once you stop enabling them, there is usually a marked increase in attraction.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Hermes said:


> The thing is, they probably dont realize that is the issue. So what do they do? They find another person that will enable them and end up in the same situation.
> 
> I agree with Conrad that once you stop enabling them, there is usually a marked increase in attraction.


Sounds like we're unlocking the issue of why sex is frequent - at first.

Stay attractive and the frequency of sex doesn't necessarily have to diminish.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Sounds like we're unlocking the issue of why sex is frequent - at first.
> 
> Stay attractive and the frequency of sex doesn't necessarily have to diminish.


It is, most likely, frequent in the beginning, because the new person is attractive because they are new. They are also "saving them" from the past choices that they made. Everyone has high hopes coming from a failed relationship that the next will be better. So, what does someone do that has not changed? They continue to do the same thing over and over. Lather, rinse and repeat. So, it will be frequent at first, but once it is shown that the new person is the same as the old, it will dry up. But, if the new person remains attractive, by not perpetuating the same behavior, the likelihood of it reducing is greatly diminished.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

We have an accord.

Stop enabling and have the guts to accept the verdict.

Then you can be secure in the path forward.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

This is probably the most eye opening aspect in my experience.

At first, I was the one being chased - I was elusive always doing my own thing: gym, after work activities, basketball weekend warrior, softball my own life etc... It only increased my wife's attraction - now that I look back.

Once the kiddo was born, all of those activities stopped. I became the opposite of what I was; thinking this is what I was suppose to do - I was wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

ReGroup said:


> This is probably the most eye opening aspect in my experience.
> 
> At first, I was the one being chased - I was elusive always doing my own thing: gym, after work activities, basketball weekend warrior, softball my own life etc... It only increased my wife's attraction - now that I look back.
> 
> ...


Undo that.

And observe her reaction.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

That happened to me. Golf every weekend to golf once every year.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

GutPunch said:


> That happened to me. Golf every weekend to golf once every year.


Undo that.

Right now.

You have plans EVERY weekend.

Nothing "happened" to you that you did not permit.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

GP, funny isn't it? They ask us to become what... deep down ... they really don't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Absolutely. Have plans every weekend. Include them in some of them, though. This is how I see it, "My life is an adventure, I will do what I want, when I want. I would like you there with me, but I will not stop my plans to appease others". If she wants to be part of the adventure, great. If not, continue as is.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

ReGroup said:


> GP, funny isn't it? They ask us to become what... deep down ... they really don't.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Listen to what they do - not what they say.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

ReGroup said:


> GP, funny isn't it? They ask us to become what... deep down ... they really don't.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


They want a mix. You settled down and became more beta. It is all about variety. The pendulum can not be stuck only at one side. It has to swing.


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

ReGroup said:


> GP, funny isn't it? They ask us to become what... deep down ... they really don't.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You need to realize that you are dealing literally with a scared little girl.

They are emotionally frozen at a young age.

Early on they learned that they could relieve that fear behaving in ways that controls those around them.

Trouble is that fear never goes away unless they do the inner work to extinguish it.

Once you are caving to each and every whim, the control no longer serves as an effective means to alleviate the fear residing in their core.

Enter posOM, who makes them feel safe and secure (for the time being anyhow).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## coachman (Jan 31, 2012)

ReGroup said:


> GP, funny isn't it? They ask us to become what... deep down ... they really don't.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Nice guys don't stand a chance.

The message sent is... settle down...lets have kids... now stop all your alpha behaviors and be with me because that will make me happy.

Then you do...you think you have done everything possible to "make them happy"...then they get board....and cheat.

Then you wake up wondering what the hell happened and you look in the mirror and you're now a shell of your former self.

Welcome to TAM..

It's a hell of a cycle.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

In other words, you submitting to them merely stokes their fear.

Emotionally, they "need" your protection. If they're in charge, who will protect them?


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Can someone post the name of this article? I am getting not found when I click the link...


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Conrad said:


> If they're in charge, who will protect them?


posOM

;-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

spun said:


> posOM
> 
> ;-)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Until the next one comes along.....


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

3Xnocharm said:


> Can someone post the name of this article? I am getting not found when I click the link...


That's because the profanity filter here is putting asterisks in place of a word that begins with "b"

If you fill in those 5 letters in the address bar, the link will work.

I didn't realize that happened.


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## HappyKaty (Nov 20, 2012)

spun said:


> posOM
> 
> ;-)


Not necessarily.

My scared little girl never reached out for a different protector. She just stayed scared and withdrew.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

HappyKaty said:


> Not necessarily.
> 
> My scared little girl never reached out for a different protector. She just stayed scared and withdrew.


Katy,

Your scared little girl also knew that she as scared and went looking for help with her issues. That is not as common as you think. People that can honestly look at themselves and say "I am not perfect, I need to improve" and actually work on getting that done, are few and far between.

People dont want to wake up. Being asleep and coasting through life is far easier.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Hermes said:


> Katy,
> 
> Your scared little girl also knew that she as scared and went looking for help with her issues. That is not as common as you think. People that can honestly look at themselves and say "I am not perfect, I need to improve" and actually work on getting that done, are few and far between.
> 
> People dont want to wake up. Being asleep and coasting through life is far easier.


Hermes,

No it isn't.

It merely SEEMS that way.


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

HappyKaty said:


> Not necessarily.
> 
> My scared little girl never reached out for a different protector. She just stayed scared and withdrew.


Self isolation...

booze and pills..

over eating...

retail therapy...

posOM...

Choose your own "adventure".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HappyKaty (Nov 20, 2012)

Hermes said:


> People dont want to wake up. Being asleep and coasting through life is far easier.


So, a cheater is lazy...not crazy.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

HappyKaty said:


> So, a cheater is lazy...not crazy.


They can be both


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## HappyKaty (Nov 20, 2012)

spun said:


> Self isolation...
> 
> booze and pills..
> 
> ...


Touché.

My point was simply that core issues stemming from childhood do not guarantee infidelity.


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

HappyKaty said:


> Touché.
> 
> My point was simply that core issues stemming from childhood do not guarantee infidelity.


Exactly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

HappyKaty said:


> Touché.
> 
> My point was simply that core issues stemming from childhood do not guarantee infidelity.


They only guarantee misery.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Hermes,
> 
> No it isn't.
> 
> It merely SEEMS that way.


Agreed 100%. It seems easier to coast through life, but as most of us that are on here know, the issues will only repeat themselves. What is easier? Dealing with your issues once and learning, or allowing them to continue throughout life? An easy answer to some, but not to all. 

The way I see it, most people dont want to deal with the hurt that comes with honest self reflection. So, to them it easier to just jump to the next thing to pacify them. Like spun said above, it does not have to be a posOM. People can pacify themselves with all sorts of things.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Hermes said:


> Agreed 100%. It seems easier to coast through life, but as most of us that are on here know, the issues will only repeat themselves. What is easier? Dealing with your issues once and learning, or allowing them to continue throughout life? An easy answer to some, but not to all.
> 
> The way I see it, most people dont want to deal with the hurt that comes with honest self reflection. So, to them it easier to just jump to the next thing to pacify them. Like spun said above, it does not have to be a posOM. People can pacify themselves with all sorts of things.


But, young attractive women have a very difficult road to travel.

So many "options". So many escapes. So many enablers.

Deciding to buckle down and take the pain associated with introspection seems like such a downer, it's difficult to blame them for trying to skate.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

HappyKaty said:


> So, a cheater is lazy...not crazy.


i dont see it that way.

I see it as most people dont like to deal with hurt and pain, so they take the easy way. The way they are used to. The way that is comfortable. It is not that they are lazy or crazy, but ill-informed or unprepared to deal with the issues at hand.

To be fair, I believe they can be crazy and lazy too.


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## HappyKaty (Nov 20, 2012)

Hermes said:


> The way I see it, most people dont want to deal with the hurt that comes with honest self reflection.


A lot of people fail to realize there's a problem, at all (enter blame shifting, rug sweeping, etc.).

I think the majority of those that finally do realize it, only do so because they've been pushed into a corner.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Conrad said:


> But, young attractive women have a very difficult road to travel.
> 
> So many "options". So many escapes. So many enablers.
> 
> Deciding to buckle down and take the pain associated with introspection seems like such a downer, it's difficult to blame them for trying to skate.


I dont blame them. I took the easy way myself for MANY years. Do I blame myself? Yes. Why? Because I control what I do. How can I blame them, when I have no control over them? Their decision does not effect me. To each his own.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

HappyKaty said:


> A lot of people fail to realize there's a problem, at all (enter blame shifting, rug sweeping, etc.).
> 
> I think the majority of those that finally do realize it, only do so because they've been pushed into a corner.


Amen to that.

Welcome to the "Going Through Divorce and Separation sub Forum"


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

HappyKaty said:


> A lot of people fail to realize there's a problem, at all (enter blame shifting, rug sweeping, etc.).
> 
> I think the majority of those that finally do realize it, only do so because they've been pushed into a corner.


That is what got me to realize what I was doing. I did not realize I had a problem, until I looked in the mirror.


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## HappyKaty (Nov 20, 2012)

Hermes said:


> That is what got me to realize what I was doing. I did not realize I had a problem, until I looked in the mirror.


Oh, the mirror does nothing for me. That's just where I sing into my hairbrush and dance, after a shower.

It's when I seen the change my STBXH was donning, that I realized my own was as fake as they come. Realizing the POS you've been bashing for months isn't anymore a POS than you are...

THAT is a slap in the face, and a shove into the proverbial corner.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

HappyKaty said:


> Oh, the mirror does nothing for me. That's just where I sing into my hairbrush and dance, after a shower.
> 
> It's when I seen the change my STBXH was donning, that I realized my own was as fake as they come. Realizing the POS you've been bashing for months isn't anymore a POS than you are...
> 
> THAT is a slap in the face, and a shove into the proverbial corner.


I realized that I am the only one that will be with me until I die. No one else will. I better be happy with myself when I look in the mirror.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

HappyKaty said:


> Oh, the mirror does nothing for me. That's just where I sing into my hairbrush and dance, after a shower.
> 
> It's when I seen the change my STBXH was donning, that I realized my own was as fake as they come. Realizing the POS you've been bashing for months isn't anymore a POS than you are...
> 
> THAT is a slap in the face, and a shove into the proverbial corner.


I could not describe it better.

November 10, 2011

Nothing has been the same since that day.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

HappyKaty said:


> Oh, the mirror does nothing for me. That's just where I sing into my hairbrush and dance, after a shower.
> 
> It's when I seen the change my STBXH was donning, that I realized my own was as fake as they come. Realizing the POS you've been bashing for months isn't anymore a POS than you are...
> 
> THAT is a slap in the face, and a shove into the proverbial corner.


Interesting. Is this blaming the victim or ... ?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

staystrong said:


> Interesting. Is this blaming the victim or ... ?


Not sure what you mean?

What part of that is blaming the victim?


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

HappyKaty said:


> A lot of people fail to realize there's a problem, at all (enter blame shifting, rug sweeping, etc.).
> 
> I think the majority of those that finally do realize it, only do so because they've been pushed into a corner.


Yes. This is the reason I can look at my X and truly feel like she did me a favor. 

I hated her lies. I hated her blameshifting. More than the affair. Why? 

Because this traumatic event helped me see that I was a liar and a blameshifter. I hadn't been truly happy in years, but I was such a good liar that I believed myself. Absolutely nothing was wrong as long as everything stayed the same. A scared little pathetic boy terrified of change. Willing to do or ignore nearly anything to keep things running "smoothly".


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

zillard said:


> Yes. This is the reason I can look at my X and truly feel like she did me a favor.
> 
> I hated her lies. I hated her blameshifting. More than the affair. Why?
> 
> Because this traumatic event helped me see that I was a liar and a blameshifter. I hadn't been truly happy in years, but I was such a good liar that I believed myself. Absolutely nothing was wrong as long as everything stayed the same. A scared little pathetic boy terrified of change. Willing to do or ignore nearly anything to keep things running "smoothly".


You do know a "smooth life" is the goal of the codependents Dr. Glover singles out in NMMNG.

Is life smooth? Is that realistic?

All "smooth life" turns out to be is enabling behavior.

That's the light bulb moment for many.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Conrad said:


> You do know a "smooth life" is the goal of the codependents Dr. Glover singles out in NMMNG.
> 
> Is life smooth? Is that realistic?
> 
> ...


The Teflon Man.


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

zillard said:


> Yes. This is the reason I can look at my X and truly feel like she did me a favor.
> 
> I hated her lies. I hated her blameshifting. More than the affair. Why?
> 
> Because this traumatic event helped me see that I was a liar and a blameshifter. I hadn't been truly happy in years, but I was such a good liar that I believed myself. Absolutely nothing was wrong as long as everything stayed the same. A scared little pathetic boy terrified of change. Willing to do or ignore nearly anything to keep things running "smoothly".


And you just described 50% of the struggling members here on TAM. figure this out and your never the same again.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

ReGroup said:


> GP, funny isn't it? They ask us to become what... deep down ... they really don't.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Funny until Oct. 12 2013 otherwise known as Gutpunch Day.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Wow - I feel like I am beginning to understand. Its finally starting to sink in. 

Zillard, this was me as well: " A scared little pathetic boy terrified of change. Willing to do or ignore nearly anything to keep things running "smoothly"."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

ReGroup said:


> Wow - I feel like I am beginning to understand. Its finally starting to sink in.
> 
> Zillard, this was me as well: " A scared little pathetic boy terrified of change. Willing to do or ignore nearly anything to keep things running "smoothly"."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't be too hard on yourself.

This is a process.


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## coachman (Jan 31, 2012)

Z nailed it with that post.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

jdlash said:


> And you just described 50% of the struggling members here on TAM. figure this out and your never the same again.





Conrad said:


> You do know a "smooth life" is the goal of the codependents Dr. Glover singles out in NMMNG.
> 
> Is life smooth? Is that realistic?
> 
> ...


It was like a light bulb. Suddenly I could empathize much more with X and really understand how she got to where she is. More importantly how I did. I was able to see that I need to put down her bag of rocks and pick up my own. Then go through them one by one - keeping the gems and discarding the rest. 

What she does with her bag of rocks is not up to me. It was unfair of me to carry them as it deprived her of the opportunity to do it herself and get stronger. It was selfish and arrogant. Two more behaviors I hated in her. Now I know why.


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## HappyKaty (Nov 20, 2012)

ReGroup said:


> Wow - I feel like I am beginning to understand. Its finally starting to sink in.
> 
> Zillard, this was me as well: " A scared little pathetic boy terrified of change. Willing to do or ignore nearly anything to keep things running "smoothly"."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's not all you.

It's likely your counterpart has the same issues.

Don't own those.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

zillard said:


> It was like a light bulb. Suddenly I could empathize much more with X and really understand how she got to where she is. More importantly how I did. I was able to see that I need to put down her bag of rocks and pick up my own. Then go through them one by one - keeping the gems and discarding the rest.
> 
> What she does with her bag of rocks is not up to me. It was unfair of me to carry them as it deprived her of the opportunity to do it herself and get stronger. It was selfish and arrogant. Two more behaviors I hated in her. Now I know why.


posOM was not the only pos in the relationship.

I remember how I wept when I saw myself.... just as you describe.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

HappyKaty said:


> It's not all you.
> 
> It's likely your counterpart has the same issues.
> 
> Don't own those.


My counterpart is very much like me (just with a few extra goodies from childhood trauma). 

Like Tool's lyrics:

"What are you but my reflection? Who am I to judge or strike you down?"

Own her issues? The goal is never again. 

I observe them now rather than shine a spotlight on them and jump up and down and point - in order to distract from myself. I can see more clearly as I remove my own filters one by one. 

Her affair belongs to her. That is her rock. A big ugly heavy one and it's such a relief to put it down and kick it over to her. I'm done inspecting every crack in it because now that spotlight is on me. My rocks are ugly enough.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

zillard said:


> It was like a light bulb. Suddenly I could empathize much more with X and really understand how she got to where she is. More importantly how I did. I was able to see that I need to put down her bag of rocks and pick up my own. Then go through them one by one - keeping the gems and discarding the rest.
> 
> What she does with her bag of rocks is not up to me. It was unfair of me to carry them as it deprived her of the opportunity to do it herself and get stronger. It was selfish and arrogant. Two more behaviors I hated in her. Now I know why.



Wow! This resonates with me. My exact same situation. Just because I could tote more rocks doesn't mean it was fair of me to do it.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

GutPunch said:


> Wow! This resonates with me. My exact same situation. Just because I could tote more rocks doesn't mean it was fair of me to do it.


And she wasn't going to love you for carrying her rocks.

She's oblivious to them - in the same way you were with yours.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

I felt stronger with every rock of hers I took. Look at me! Look at how awesome I am that I can save the day.

Meanwhile each and every rock added was completely wrecking my back and my knees. And she was skipping along, oblivious and no longer strong enough to carry her own. 

Now that she has them back they are crushing her. And it's partially my fault. That's one of mine.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Embarrassingly, I feel this is the first time I Understand what you are guys are saying.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

zillard said:


> I felt stronger with every rock of hers I took. Look at me! Look at how awesome I am that I can save the day.
> 
> Meanwhile each and every rock added was completely wrecking my back and my knees. And she was skipping along, oblivious and no longer strong enough to carry her own.
> 
> Now that she has them back they are crushing her. And it's partially my fault. That's one of mine.


I thought by stepping up and carrying my own bag of rocks (admitting where I had gone wrong in our marriage), that she would step up and pick up hers.

That turned out to be a convenient opportunity for her to dump the entire pile on me.

I have shouldered the whole load for nearly a year now and I'm exhausted.

But, you know what, now that I am no longer making up excuses for why I shoulder her part of the load, I feel a whole lot lighter.


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## HappyKaty (Nov 20, 2012)

spun said:


> I thought by stepping up and carrying my own bag of rocks (admitting where I had gone wrong in our marriage), that she would step up and pick up hers.


That's an excellent point.

It's all about you.

The other person may never "pick up" their own.


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

HappyKaty said:


> That's an excellent point.
> 
> It's all about you.
> 
> The other person may never "pick up" their own.


It's giving to get.

It's what cute little fixers like us do.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

spun said:


> It's giving to get.
> 
> It's what cute little fixers like us do.


covert contracts. 

we feel slighted when they aren't fulfilled, even though the other party never knew they existed.

selfish.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

ReGroup said:


> Embarrassingly, I feel this is the first time I Understand what you are guys are saying.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's why we do this every day


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

HappyKaty said:


> That's an excellent point.
> 
> It's all about you.
> 
> The other person may never "pick up" their own.


AND... tying back into my other thread.

Physical attraction one key component of "whether they will" be so inclined.

Look at it this way. I have a cute little fixer that talks to me on the forum and the phone. His wife has been involved with posOM (damn, that a-hole gets around) for roughly 6 months.

He's been sticking to his knitting and she's noticed he's not nearly as needy, clingy, demanding, etc.

She's even admitted to him that posOM isn't getting the job done. How could he? If she isn't going to do her work, no one can do it for her.

He's been vacillating on what to do to respond.

He's been advised to stay cool, firm, and dispassionate

So, posOM is finally out of the picture. She admits to him that she's miserable and doesn't think she's relationship material. This guy did everything I SAID I wanted, blah, blah, blah until you regurgitate.

So, she announces she wants to work on herself and work towards reconciliation?

Nope - enter posOM#2

And, of course, my advice to him is to file - yesterday.

There is a logic to this.

But, you have to believe them when they tell you who they are - and where they're headed.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

What an amazing thread this has been to me! This is my ex husband and his first wife! (now his wife again...ugh) I cry for him that he insists on keeping himself in this situation with her, while she abuses him over and over and over. I cant hardly stand it. I try to help, god knows why...I sent him the link from the OP. My heart goes out to all.


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## Dreald (Aug 30, 2012)

spun said:


> I thought by stepping up and carrying my own bag of rocks (admitting where I had gone wrong in our marriage), that she would step up and pick up hers.
> 
> That turned out to be a convenient opportunity for her to dump the entire pile on me.
> 
> ...


I recontacted my exwife after we divorced as part of a healing and moving on process (NOT to get back together). I acknowledged how I reacted to her angry outbursts, how I allowed her to control our communication, how I became resentful at her being overly-critical of everything I did. 

It was truly a cleansing process and one that surprised her. Before I spent so much time trying to get her to understand and relate to how I was feeling and which she would blame-shift, deny or dismiss. I would get angry at such a reaction. I acknowledged that I should never have allowed her to have such control and it was MY fault for allowing her to do so. I should have been at 50,000 feet and instead I got down at her level and argued with her and became upset when I had to listen to her and she wouldn't reciprocate. 

I took ownership of the things that *I* could have controlled but instead reacted to the way that she heard them or responded to them. 

I've moved on but it was surprising at how she wanted to try to reconcile things now that I've changed (even though she has not changed nor has accepted little to no responsibility as to why our marriage failed in only 14 months). While we tried once to reconcile things, it was clear that when I brought up those previous items that she should bear some responsibility for, she reverted back to her previous ways.

Now that it's clear to her I'm no longer interested in re-engaging with her, she's trying her hardest to let me know she's changed for the better....not going to fall for that again.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Conrad said:


> She admits to him that she's miserable and doesn't think she's relationship material. This guy did everything I SAID I wanted, blah, blah, blah until you regurgitate.
> 
> So, she announces she wants to work on herself and work towards reconciliation?
> 
> ...


From my X before she moved out:

"You aren't fvcked like I am. I'm so sorry about dragging you into my tangled mess, I felt that way from the very beginning. I should have said something, done something, pushed you away to keep you safe. But I didn't. And I regret that so much. You deserve better, not my specific over the top brand of fvcking crazy. I'm truly sorry. You don't even know. "

But she still would not share passwords or change shifts. So I rented a truck.


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

zillard said:


> From my X before she moved out:
> 
> "You aren't fvcked like I am. I'm so sorry about dragging you into my tangled mess, I felt that way from the very beginning. I should have said something, done something, pushed you away to keep you safe. But I didn't. And I regret that so much. You deserve better, not my specific over the top brand of fvcking crazy. I'm truly sorry. You don't even know. "
> 
> But she still would not share passwords or change shifts. So I rented a truck.


In other words, she is not sorry for what she did.

She is sorry she got caught and that you called her on her sh!t.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

spun said:


> In other words, she is not sorry for what she did.
> 
> She is sorry she got caught and you called her on her sh!t.


She was apologizing for who she is, not her choices or actions.

And if that is who she is, the choices and actions will repeat. 

Now she has a post-it on her fridge: "Change or Die"


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## Pbartender (Dec 6, 2012)

_"Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter."_



spun said:


> I thought by stepping up and carrying my own bag of rocks (admitting where I had gone wrong in our marriage), that she would step up and pick up hers.
> 
> That turned out to be a convenient opportunity for her to dump the entire pile on me.
> 
> ...


Yeah, sign me up for THAT support group...

Same deal, here. I had no trouble carrying my own sack of rocks. When I tried to carry hers AND mine, I quickly wore myself out and started dropping mine...

Trying to carry her load simply because she was refusing to carry it herself was my first big mistake. That was the foundation of my half our marital problems.

My second big mistake dropping my load to continue carrying hers, when carrying both became too much to bear (even hers alone was just about too heavy for me). That was my contribution toward turning our great pile of resolved problems into a towering inferno of emotional collapse.

It was classic codependent nice guy syndrome exasperated by my wife's narcissistic tendencies and emotional affairs.


Pb.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Sounds like she's still attracted to you.

You do realize that if you set proper boundaries, it could work.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Dreald said:


> I recontacted my exwife after we divorced as part of a healing and moving on process (NOT to get back together). I acknowledged how I reacted to her angry outbursts, how I allowed her to control our communication, how I became resentful at her being overly-critical of everything I did.
> 
> It was truly a cleansing process and one that surprised her. Before I spent so much time trying to get her to understand and relate to how I was feeling and which she would blame-shift, deny or dismiss. I would get angry at such a reaction. I acknowledged that I should never have allowed her to have such control and it was MY fault for allowing her to do so. I should have been at 50,000 feet and instead I got down at her level and argued with her and became upset when I had to listen to her and she wouldn't reciprocate.
> 
> I took ownership of the things that *I* could have controlled but instead reacted to the way that she heard them or responded to them.


I did this in a joint session with X a few weeks ago. Owned up to all the baggage from my childhood that I brought into the marriage and how it was unfair to her, and apologized. I admitted to having an anger problem. I have not healthily expressed my anger, nor admitted I have it most times. Due to this it builds up and I then implode with self destructive behaviors or I become passive aggressive. 

I let her know that I am now talking about things that make me angry as they happen. Also that I understand it will probably be scary and new for her as it's something I haven't done. It is part of my treatment and I must do it regardless of her response, but I hope she understands. 

If felt so good.


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## zillard (Nov 13, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Sounds like she's still attracted to you.
> 
> You do realize that if you set proper boundaries, it could work.


Yes. I am confident that we could have a much better relationship than we ever did in the past, with some work. 

I let her know I was willing if A, B and C. Burden of proof is now on her.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Dreald said:


> I recontacted my exwife after we divorced as part of a healing and moving on process (NOT to get back together). I acknowledged how I reacted to her angry outbursts, how I allowed her to control our communication, how I became resentful at her being overly-critical of everything I did.
> 
> It was truly a cleansing process and one that surprised her. Before I spent so much time trying to get her to understand and relate to how I was feeling and which she would blame-shift, deny or dismiss. I would get angry at such a reaction. I acknowledged that I should never have allowed her to have such control and it was MY fault for allowing her to do so. I should have been at 50,000 feet and instead I got down at her level and argued with her and became upset when I had to listen to her and she wouldn't reciprocate.
> 
> ...


You realize she's also (still) attracted to you.

She and you are both young enough that if you wanted to grow up, set proper boundaries, and enforce them, it could work.


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