# Blindsided



## Sadfather (Jul 3, 2012)

I apologize if this is not the appropriate place for this. I just need to vent. 

I woke up this morning with a sense of something wrong. I was right. My common law wife of 9 and half years had snuck out in the middle of the night with my kids. She flew them 2400 miles away and sent me a message that they will not be coming back. I don't know what to do. I love my kids beyond words. 

No fights, no nothing. She just left and said it was because she missed her family and wanted to move home to them and told me that our kids will be raised there. There being Stockton California in the roughest of neighborhoods to live with her brother and his family of 5 kids. 

Mind you, my kids are very well behaved and have amazing morals. They truly are great kids. I am so worried for their future now. I am so devasted that I am no longer able to be there for them. I have raised my youngest every day since I work from home. My oldest is only 8 but she is bright one. Their mom told them they were going on a vacation so they don't even know that all of their toys, bikes, their dogs & their cats will not be in their lives no more. 

I called the police and they said that even though I am on the birth certificate and that I have raised them from day one. That they can't have her bring them back. My kids are gone and I am devastated. 

I don't know what to do. My kids have been my life. Their mom has no compassion and is just saying that this is what she needed to do for herself. i know that I have to talk to an attorney but this is messed up. She won't even let me talk to them. She told me that she cannot be forced to bring them back no matter what. I don't know my rights so at this moment. I am so freaked out to say the least. 

What makes it worse is I loved her too.


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## Ansley (Apr 5, 2010)

STUPID STUPID STUPID POLICE. Not sure what your time zone is...but start getting phone #'s now. When 8:00 am hits call any attorney that will talk to you. First conversation is free. Go from there. Sadly, even if she comes back and says she made a mistake the trust is GONE. How violating? You wake up and your family has gone 2400 miles away! I dont know anything about Stockton but a call to their local police might help. At least if htye call her or pay a visit she may realize "hey ..it isnt going to take this laying down"


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Are you sure... it's her brother she went to be with? That just seems so very bizarre to me......


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## Liveagoodlife (Jun 8, 2012)

get a lawyer tomorrow morning, a lawyer will force her to return the kids ASAP


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## Sadfather (Jul 3, 2012)

Ansley said:


> STUPID STUPID STUPID POLICE. Not sure what your time zone is...but start getting phone #'s now. When 8:00 am hits call any attorney that will talk to you. First conversation is free. Go from there. Sadly, even if she comes back and says she made a mistake the trust is GONE. How violating? You wake up and your family has gone 2400 miles away! I dont know anything about Stockton but a call to their local police might help. At least if htye call her or pay a visit she may realize "hey ..it isnt going to take this laying down"


Ansley, I have been at this all day with calls. Nothing I can do until I prove that I am the paternal father first by DNA. Then I would have to take her to court which by her being now on the west coast. It will be hard to serve her to come back to answer since her brother has moved into a new home that I don't even have the address too. I will try to fight for my kids but the odds are against me with her going so far away. 

We have lived to together for 9 and half years. She wore a ring; although we never had a civil ceremony we called each other man and wife. When I told her that I was instructed to file a paternity claim and also file a "Common Law Marriage" divorce in order to get them back here. She said, we were never common law. Good luck with that she said. 

I am being truthful that I never imagined her to be so cruel. She started to have some depression a couple years ago but to me I think it's progressed into bi-polar. She's extremely high and then low. I don't get it. 

And you are right, the trust is gone. I love her but I do not want her back. I believe that once someone breaks your trust. It will never come back, like you siad. I just want to be able to raise my kids here in a safer town and continue with their steps in the right direction. This is going to be a battle.






Gaia said:


> Are you sure... it's her brother she went to be with? That just seems so very bizarre to me......


Yeah, she is there for now. I know because I heard them in the background when I she finally talked to me. 


Liveagoodlife said:


> get a lawyer tomorrow morning, a lawyer will force her to return the kids ASAP


I hope so. My kids are great kids. My family lives here and they are upset by this too. They have been a part of my kids lives since day one as well. My ex's side has not by their choice. I have offered to fly them here but they always declined but expected my ex and the kids to always go there over the years.


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## Ansley (Apr 5, 2010)

I am so sorry this has happened to you. It must feel like David vs Goliath. If you know her brothers name (Im sure you do) the police will find him. Throwing out wordslike "kidnapping" will make them jump. When /if she calls just ask to speak to the kids. She is nuts to do this. I have read so many stories about men/women who were married. He/She leaves (sometimes to their home country) and the hoops they have to go through to see their own children is appauling.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

First of all, just because the police claim you have to prove DNA doesn't make it true. It makes the police sexually discriminatory, however. You're both on the birth certificate, so that's all you should need to file a parental kidnapping charge. Don't hesitate or let your emotions for her cloud your thinking, and do not let the police refuse to take a report. If they refuse, keep going up that chain of command until you get someone who will get a police report authorized and if you cannot find anyone, seek help from the Attorney General's office. Do not be afraid to challenge them on sexual discrimination, but DO avoid losing your temper, cursing, or behaving in a way that could be seen as hostile.

Second, file for an ex parte order of protection for your children. Cite their mother's erratic, unpredictable, and irresponsible behavior and tell the judge you are concerned about your children's best interests. Use those words "best interests" frequently. Take any documentation about her depressions or other mental issues with you or provide them to your attorney for use in getting this restraining order. If you can obtain the order, IMMEDIATELY file it with the clerk of the court in the county where she has taken your children. This makes it have a legally binding effect that is enforceable by the police department, and then you can go get your children. 

Be aware that the Uniform Child Custody Jurisdiction Act, which is adopted by most states, will allow her to file for complete custody and put you through a legal wringer if you don't get the kids back to your home state within a certain amount of time. 

Right now, you can initiate jurisdiction in your home state. Do not miss the opportunity to do so.

I have had a lot of experience with family court, both directly and indirectly. I encourage you to read two articles I've written on child custody that pertain to you before you plunk down your money on an attorney so that you'll be able to speak about basic issues, provide your attorney with good evidence as you go through the difficult legal process, and hire the best attorney for the job.

Child Custody When You Were Not Married

Fathers Rights - What Men Need to Know


If you have any questions after reading those articles, please post them there. I will see them faster there than I will on here. Best wishes for a fast and happy outcome.


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## Posse (Jan 30, 2012)

If you are listed on the Birth Certificate as the father, why in the world would you need to prove anything by DNA?

This does not make sense.

Have you consulted more than one attorney?

What is keeping you from going there grabbing the kids at some point when they are separated from Mom and bringing them back?

A P.I. could find them very quickly.


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## Sadfather (Jul 3, 2012)

Ansley said:


> I am so sorry this has happened to you. It must feel like David vs Goliath. If you know her brothers name (Im sure you do) the police will find him. Throwing out wordslike "kidnapping" will make them jump. When /if she calls just ask to speak to the kids. She is nuts to do this. I have read so many stories about men/women who were married. He/She leaves (sometimes to their home country) and the hoops they have to go through to see their own children is appauling.


You hear the war stories but never think it will happened to you. I just can't believe I was so trusting of her and that I believed that she was not a person who would do this. I am saddened by this. It's 2:30 am and I haven't ate since yesterday. I have no urge to sleep. I just want to know where my kids are and if they are alright.


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## Ansley (Apr 5, 2010)

KathyBatesel said:


> First of all, just because the police claim you have to prove DNA doesn't make it true. It makes the police sexually discriminatory, however. You're both on the birth certificate, so that's all you should need to file a parental kidnapping charge. Don't hesitate or let your emotions for her cloud your thinking, and do not let the police refuse to take a report. If they refuse, keep going up that chain of command until you get someone who will get a police report authorized and if you cannot find anyone, seek help from the Attorney General's office. Do not be afraid to challenge them on sexual discrimination, but DO avoid losing your temper, cursing, or behaving in a way that could be seen as hostile.
> 
> Second, file for an ex parte order of protection for your children. Cite their mother's erratic, unpredictable, and irresponsible behavior and tell the judge you are concerned about your children's best interests. Use those words "best interests" frequently. Take any documentation about her depressions or other mental issues with you or provide them to your attorney for use in getting this restraining order. If you can obtain the order, IMMEDIATELY file it with the clerk of the court in the county where she has taken your children. This makes it have a legally binding effect that is enforceable by the police department, and then you can go get your children.
> 
> ...



This is great advice. I would run with it. Lazy policmen shouldnt be a deterent.


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## Sadfather (Jul 3, 2012)

Wow, thank you Kathy. I am printing everything you wrote here. I am going first thing in the morning to an attorney. I will file something fast. 

Thank you for making me feel there is hope. 



KathyBatesel said:


> First of all, just because the police claim you have to prove DNA doesn't make it true. It makes the police sexually discriminatory, however. You're both on the birth certificate, so that's all you should need to file a parental kidnapping charge. Don't hesitate or let your emotions for her cloud your thinking, and do not let the police refuse to take a report. If they refuse, keep going up that chain of command until you get someone who will get a police report authorized and if you cannot find anyone, seek help from the Attorney General's office. Do not be afraid to challenge them on sexual discrimination, but DO avoid losing your temper, cursing, or behaving in a way that could be seen as hostile.
> 
> Second, file for an ex parte order of protection for your children. Cite their mother's erratic, unpredictable, and irresponsible behavior and tell the judge you are concerned about your children's best interests. Use those words "best interests" frequently. Take any documentation about her depressions or other mental issues with you or provide them to your attorney for use in getting this restraining order. If you can obtain the order, IMMEDIATELY file it with the clerk of the court in the county where she has taken your children. This makes it have a legally binding effect that is enforceable by the police department, and then you can go get your children.
> 
> ...


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

There is hope. My ex husband and I went through a horrendous custody battle that lasted 8 years, cost over $25,000, and crossed five state jurisdictional lines and involved kidnappings, false allegations, and a lot of mental abuse. While I'm not an attorney, I've learned how the law very, very, well, and how to get around the cops who say crap like, "It's a civil case, not a police matter" (that's why you file your orders in the county where the children are), how to stop the games and get action, etc. 

In my ex-husband's case, he won custody, though it took a long time to get there. If he hadn't, I believe he wouldn't even know his daughters today.

But please read those articles I linked. I promise you'll find them very useful.


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## Sadfather (Jul 3, 2012)

Kathy once again, thank you. My mind is frazzled and freaked out to say the least but I am printing your information and heading to bed to read and take notes. I will fight for my kids.

Thank you. 



KathyBatesel said:


> There is hope. My ex husband and I went through a horrendous custody battle that lasted 8 years, cost over $25,000, and crossed five state jurisdictional lines and involved kidnappings, false allegations, and a lot of mental abuse. While I'm not an attorney, I've learned how the law very, very, well, and how to get around the cops who say crap like, "It's a civil case, not a police matter" (that's why you file your orders in the county where the children are), how to stop the games and get action, etc.
> 
> In my ex-husband's case, he won custody, though it took a long time to get there. If he hadn't, I believe he wouldn't even know his daughters today.
> 
> But please read those articles I linked. I promise you'll find them very useful.


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## Sadfather (Jul 3, 2012)

I lawyered up. My attorney said I do have rights and getting them back here can happen and possibly quick. Although we do have to go with a common law divorce it seems. It may not be as fast as I am hoping but we file on Thursday morning. Thank you Kathy for your links and advice.

With my attorney, I didn’t understand quite everything she said to me on what we are going to do but this lawyer has a great reputation of 40 years behind her here in this county. To be honest, she is kind of scary. She straight up scared the crap out of me with her toughness. So I guess she will be a fighter.

As for how I am doing? I am falling apart. I always thought I was tough man but by God I haven't stopped crying since yesterday. This house is so quiet. I can't walk by their rooms without falling apart. I look at their bikes and I lose it. I see the dogs sleeping by the front door waiting for them to come in. It’s sad. I can't eat or sleep. I feel like I am losing my mind. Like I am helpless. 

I am scared to death not knowing what they are doing. Not knowing if she told them her plan to not bring them back. I haven't talk to my kids for more than five minutes combined in these two days. First time in their lives I haven't talked to them at great length or share a laugh with them or give them a hug. Something we did every day. 

This is not right. She won't tell me their address where they are at; I get nothing but being ignored now. How can the law allow her to just disappear with my kids? To me they have been kidnapped. 

The police continue to say that it's a civil matter. I bet they would scream kidnapped if I go out there and get them from her. Something I must admit I contemplated today. This is straight BS. I want to see my kids.

I miss them dearly. A house is not a home without them. I can’t believe all this has happened. I don't care what people think, no matter what you feel about your partner unless they are cruel and hurtfull, you should never take your kids from the other parent like this. It's the worst pain you can imagine and it's just evil.


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

PLEASE DON"T GO OUT AND GET THE KIDS! You want to be as clean in this as possible. I suspect her actions may have a positive effect on you getting primary or even sole custody of them.

Good luck


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## Sadfather (Jul 3, 2012)

KanDo said:


> PLEASE DON"T GO OUT AND GET THE KIDS! You want to be as clean in this as possible. I suspect her actions may have a positive effect on you getting primary or even sole custody of them.
> 
> Good luck


I won't. I did think about it and deep down I knew that it could hurt me but I did think about it. 

It's just driving me nuts that she did this and to her it's no big deal. You figuire you trusted the person you had kids with and for them to do something like this just made me realize that you never truly know someone.


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

Sadfather said:


> I apologize if this is not the appropriate place for this. I just need to vent.
> 
> I woke up this morning with a sense of something wrong. I was right. My common law wife of 9 and half years had snuck out in the middle of the night with my kids. She flew them 2400 miles away and sent me a message that they will not be coming back. I don't know what to do. I love my kids beyond words.
> 
> ...


You have to realize that most cops only have an IQ of around 29. If it were any lower, they would be prosecuting attorneys or judges.
An attorney representing YOU will find a way for you to have rights at leas appearing to be equal to those of your thieving SO.
If you want your kids back, it's on you to get them.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

SF, there are pros and cons to going to get your children, but the biggest con is that it's emotionally harmful to them if it results in a nasty confrontation or violence with their mom or other loved ones. 

This should NEVER be done if you cannot ensure that there won't be that kind of confrontation. (When my daughter's ex took her son, she did go and get him back after learning from her attorney that she would not be in any legal trouble, but she was able to enlist a mutual friend's aid and everything seemed natural to my grandson.)

May I ask what your attorney's plan is other than filing for a common law divorce?


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## This is me (May 4, 2011)

It sounds like this was unexpected behavior. Could this be the Walk Away Wife Syndrome. Part of it is they plan a stealth exit stategy which shocks the husband.


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## Sadfather (Jul 3, 2012)

So I have been quiet here for a couple of days. It's been an emotional ride to say the least this week. After talking with the first attorney I was somewhat relieved to be represented with one but that soon went sour when I went home and checked out all the negative reviews on this attorney. So I quickly detached myself from her and went back on the hunt for a good attorney. 

Regarding my ex, she has let me talk to my kids a total of 80 minutes in six days. She only agreed let me talk to them if I promise not to ask them any questions as to where they are or anything pertaining to our separation. I agreed to be able to hear their voices. 

She told me a reason why she left but I am completely baffled by her reason. I did get her to admit while on speaker phone some very important questions that will help me in court in front of 3 witnesses. 

Was I ever abusive towards you? She answered, no. Was I ever abusive towards our kids? She said, no. Etc... etc.. She answered some key points that I am glad was witnessed by 3 people who are really not a close part of us. Thank God. 

She told me that another reason for her to take the kids there was for her to have them establish new people in their lives with some of her family that have never bothered to be a part of their lives so that when we go to court. They will say that they have significant connections there and she can move there with the kids. 

I am in shock considering that my kids have never had anything really with anybody from her side of the family in all their years alive. Not birthday cards or anything. This is completely shocking considering her families are not truly the best kind of people you would want your kids around and this was what she has told me about them. I just don't get this. 

I don't understand depression but to me this sounds like she has lost her mind. I am completely fine with separating from her but I am not separating from my kids. She said that is not my call but hers. She asked me to pack up the kids’ things and hers and send them to her mother’s house. I said no, this is their home and until we get a custody agreement. Their things stay put. She said that they will never be coming back to this state and to just throw it all away. To me, this is not someone thinking rational. She also said that it will be over her dead body if I think the state will force my kids back there. 

I am completely baffled. Who is this woman and why is she so angry and delusional? She said, I didn't give her the emotional support when she was depressed. I tried I told her, she just refused to open up. This is crazy. 

The other day I called and she decided to finally answer that call. I asked to talk to my kids. She said that she wasn't with them. I asked her where they were at. She told me that they are with her sister in law. I said please don't leave them with that woman. Based on my ex's mouth, this woman is an evil woman who never cared for her own kids and is nasty, disgusting and mean. I have been to their previous home once and it was the most disgusting place I have ever stepped foot in. I won't go into details. 

As of right now, I am completely just numb and scared. Not for me but for my kids. Our kids have never witnessed anything like this and she is throwing them right into the fire. Although they are still under the assumption that they are on a vacation, when I talked to them last. So that is good that she hasn't said much to them but I know that my oldest is not dumb. She will start to figure it out soon and for that I am even more worried since she is the kindest hearted soul ever.

Well, I am writing a book here it seems and I better stop since she may find this and know it’s about us but she is completely insane in my eyes now. I am sad and scared for my kids but I will admit that I am also scared for her too. This whole situation does not make sense. 




KathyBatesel said:


> SF, there are pros and cons to going to get your children, but the biggest con is that it's emotionally harmful to them if it results in a nasty confrontation or violence with their mom or other loved ones.
> 
> This should NEVER be done if you cannot ensure that there won't be that kind of confrontation. (When my daughter's ex took her son, she did go and get him back after learning from her attorney that she would not be in any legal trouble, but she was able to enlist a mutual friend's aid and everything seemed natural to my grandson.)
> 
> May I ask what your attorney's plan is other than filing for a common law divorce?


My new attorney who is someone who is well known in this area, infact he will be becoming a judge here next year filed an emergency motion of protection to get my kids back here. Since we had the holiday this week, we will find out if the court will grant this to an emergency hearing on Monday. If it goes through, I will be able to get my kids back home. I am praying. 



This is me said:


> It sounds like this was unexpected behavior. Could this be the Walk Away Wife Syndrome. Part of it is they plan a stealth exit stategy which shocks the husband.


Yes it does sound strange and after looking it up and reading what the definition of the Walk Away Wife Syndrome. I can say that it fits this. Although we did have some problems, I was under the assumption that we were going to fix them. I never expected this or her irrational behavior to work together for the kids.

You would be amazed on what I offered her to bring the kids back. I even offered to put it in legal writing and file it in the courts. She would even think about it. She said that she would nver be back here, even if she was served papers. The over my dead body comment scares me. I just don't get it. My neighbors, family and friends. All of us are baffled by this.

SF


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## Sadfather (Jul 3, 2012)

hookares said:


> If you want your kids back, it's on you to get them.


I know but I do not want to scare the kids or scar them but I know that I have stay on top of this. 

It has made my work life suffer this week but I can't stop focusing in gettng my kids back. I worry evey minute about them, to me this cannot be something that just sits idle.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

SF, you said what I was hoping to hear... that your attorney's filing an ex parte order right away. Has he talked to you about what will happen if the judge does not grant it? Does it sound like he is very certain that the order will be granted? Did he discuss whether or not you can file criminal charges against her in your state for either kidnapping or interference with custody?


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## Sadfather (Jul 3, 2012)

I will find out sometime today if they will do an emergency hearing. As for what my attorney said, he said that it's not a guarantee that the judge will find this an emergency. As for charges against her, everyone from the police and him said that since there was not a custody agreement that she had a right to the kids as much as I do. He said, I understand but she took them in the middle of the night. She won't give us an address as to where they are at. She is under medication that she left here and is not taking it which stopping cold turkey can lead to dangerous withdrawals. That they are with adults that may not be safe for them but he said that sometimes the judges don't believe that it's an emergency. 

When I called the day after the fourth of July my ex was extremely hung over (which she never drank much when we were together) and my kids sounded scared and couldn't talk to me for more than five minutes until the phone went dead.
This is their home where they go to school, have friends, family and a life. Not somewhere 2400 miles away. This is what they have known all their lives. I am scared for them when they realize that they are not coming home. This is dangerous to their minds. 

Their mom told me over her dead body would anyone force her to let the kids come back here. That alone scares me. She admitted that she took them there to make new connections with her family so that she can file to move and it would show that they are significantly connected there. Which is crazy because her family had never tried to be a part of our lives? My kids never received birthday cards, Christmas presents or nothing from them. This is evil on her part. I just don't get what I did to her to make her be a totally different person. I am so confused by all this. 

SF



KathyBatesel said:


> SF, you said what I was hoping to hear... that your attorney's filing an ex parte order right away. Has he talked to you about what will happen if the judge does not grant it? Does it sound like he is very certain that the order will be granted? Did he discuss whether or not you can file criminal charges against her in your state for either kidnapping or interference with custody?


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## C123 (Jun 20, 2012)

SF - this sounds like kidnapping to me. I'd call the FBI immediately as kidnapping is a federal crime. 

She has no right to take these children from you and there isn't a court in this country that will allow her to do so under these circumstances. Document everything. Begin recording your phone conversations. Spare no expense. You will need to rely on all of your evidence in court. Don't break the law. Don't drink or do drugs because you will be drug tested as part of a custody arrangement.

I'm so sorry for your situation, but you will get these children back. DOCUMENT EVERYTHING! Don't be stupid or naive.


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## MadeInMichigan (May 8, 2012)

OMG....this is breaking my heart. Prayers for you, brother. Hang in there, and listen to Kathy.


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## bkaydezz (Jul 9, 2012)

wow!!!! for herself! are you kdding me? that is absolutely ridiculous! there is NOTHING worse than taking your children away from you when you know you are awesome as a parent. and to me you seem as if you really love your kids and i hope she reep what she sows. she is HIDING something from you. noone does that except out of selfishness and something is wrong wrong with that. get an attourney asap!


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## Sadfather (Jul 3, 2012)

C123 said:


> SF - this sounds like kidnapping to me. I'd call the FBI immediately as kidnapping is a federal crime.
> 
> She has no right to take these children from you and there isn't a court in this country that will allow her to do so under these circumstances. Document everything. Begin recording your phone conversations. Spare no expense. You will need to rely on all of your evidence in court. Don't break the law. Don't drink or do drugs because you will be drug tested as part of a custody arrangement.
> 
> I'm so sorry for your situation, but you will get these children back. DOCUMENT EVERYTHING! Don't be stupid or naive.


Thank you. Unfortunately since we had no custody agreement it makes things harder but yes they will have to come back since this is their home state and where it's being handled. That being said, she has said that no one will get her to bring the kids back so thats where it will get ugly for her and unfortunately the kids since the law will catch up sooner or later. 

I do not drink nor do I do drugs. 


MadeInMichigan said:


> OMG....this is breaking my heart. Prayers for you, brother. Hang in there, and listen to Kathy.


Thank you and yes Kathy's advice has helped me. 


bkaydezz said:


> wow!!!! for herself! are you kdding me? that is absolutely ridiculous! there is NOTHING worse than taking your children away from you when you know you are awesome as a parent. and to me you seem as if you really love your kids and i hope she reep what she sows. she is HIDING something from you. noone does that except out of selfishness and something is wrong wrong with that. get an attourney asap!


Thank you. Yes she is being selfish and controlling. She is still refusing to let me know where my kids are. She is trying so hard to make them feel that where they are is the best place for them by doing so many 'fun" things right now with them. 

The only times I have talked to them. They keep saying that they did this and that and they are having fun but in the same breath they sound sad and keep saying that they are tired and miss home. That's when they are told that they have to get off the phone. 

She has admitted that she is trying to build significant connections there for them and to have them feel that this is where they would want to be. I feel that she is taking advantage our kids by doing that. It's upsetting me especially since I can hear in their voices that they are confused. In her mind and by the way she is talking she is thinking that this is the right way to handle this. She is not the same person I thought she was. She has lost her mind. 

I miss my kids and I will not quit them. I have set up a lot here by chance I get them back. I have counseling ready, I have the school ready. I have my family ready. I am worried how my kids are going to handle all this. I don't want them scared or scarred. 

SF


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## Sadfather (Jul 3, 2012)

Well, she accidently sent me a text tonight that was meant for someone else. She was having an internet affair with someone after all and went cross country to be with him and took my kids to him. That is completely outrageous.


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## Ansley (Apr 5, 2010)

Sadfather said:


> Well, she accidently sent me a text tonight that was meant for someone else. She was having an internet affair with someone after all and went cross country to be with him and took my kids to him. That is completely outrageous.


Oh my goodness! I am so sorry. This is awful. Keep the text (obviously) I dont know how it works but can you get cell records, have your hard drive looked at etc...? Im wondering what your attorney will say about this new revelation. I am wondering if this was truly an accidnt or if she was trying to get a jab at you. Either way she has really screwed up. I know it is easy for me to say but Stay Strong my friend. 

Hopefully Kathy gets on and sees this soon.


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## Sadfather (Jul 3, 2012)

Text is locked and copy sent to my email for backup. The text is damaging. I would tell ya'll what it said but in fear that she may find this forum. I think I will wait a bit. 

As for sending it for some zing, no she screwed up sending it because she was blaming and trying to explian it as something else fast but it's pretty cut and dry that it was to someone other than me.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

That's how I found out about my wife's affair. She sent me a text intended for her affair partner.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

Sadfather said:


> Text is locked and copy sent to my email for backup. The text is damaging. I would tell ya'll what it said but in fear that she may find this forum. I think I will wait a bit.
> 
> As for sending it for some zing, no she screwed up sending it because she was blaming and trying to explian it as something else fast but it's pretty cut and dry that it was to someone other than me.


Time to send a copy of that text to your attorney for safe keeping and also to do some investigating to find out just who this OM is. This is a huge red flag which just may factor in to future custody arrangements.


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## Why Not Be Happy? (Apr 16, 2010)

Be strong! Any updates from the court?


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## danie12 (May 30, 2012)

My older brother went through something similar. His gf took his kids away and wouldn't tell him where they were at and wouldn't let the kids talk to him. We live in WI so the laws were on the side of the mother and as long as she didn't leave the state there was no legal action he could take. He tried to file charges but the police said they couldn't serve her if they didn't know where she was. He tricked her into returning home for a community event and had her served then. That got the legal ball rolling and when it was all said and done he was awarded custody and she had to pay child support to him. 

I would suggest that you speak to your lawyer about a Guardian ad Litem for your children. This can't be in their best interest. Most states (if not all) work towards the best interest of the children and that means two involved parents in their lives....and not a middle of the night move with no warning, and not allowing them to talk to their father, taking them around people they don't know...probably who knows what else. 

If you have the means hire a PI to track her down and serve her. It would be worth the money. 

Good luck and I'll keep praying for the safety of your children.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

what a fing bit*h.

stay strong! good luck.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I suggest you impliment your rights as there father....like the lawyer said you have every right as much as her....so hire a securty firm / PI and find your kids and go get them in the middle of the night while you ex is out parting with her boyfriend.

Hell the PI might even beable to get them early in the morning while she sleeps off her drunk. Anyway, if you get the right poeple they can find them and extract them from that unhealthy inviorment.

It sound to me that even with a court order, it sound like the folks your ex is now surronded by won't really listen to a court order.

But in any case let the legal system *try* to do its job, but in the long run I see you colvertly extracting them.

At the very least get a PI to get a location. Then you can at least call child protection service in that state and file a complaint, there by having a wellfare check done on your kids.

My point is there is more then one way to skin this cat.


One more thing at least you now understand the why. This OM has effected the dynamics of this marriage and now has an emotionally strong hold over your ex.


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## Sadfather (Jul 3, 2012)

Why Not Be Happy? said:


> Be strong! Any updates from the court?


Yes but would like to wait a few days before I say what. 



danie12 said:


> My older brother went through something similar. His gf took his kids away and wouldn't tell him where they were at and wouldn't let the kids talk to him. We live in WI so the laws were on the side of the mother and as long as she didn't leave the state there was no legal action he could take. He tried to file charges but the police said they couldn't serve her if they didn't know where she was. He tricked her into returning home for a community event and had her served then. That got the legal ball rolling and when it was all said and done he was awarded custody and she had to pay child support to him.
> 
> I would suggest that you speak to your lawyer about a Guardian ad Litem for your children. This can't be in their best interest. Most states (if not all) work towards the best interest of the children and that means two involved parents in their lives....and not a middle of the night move with no warning, and not allowing them to talk to their father, taking them around people they don't know...probably who knows what else.
> 
> ...


 Thank you and kep praying for them. 



chillymorn said:


> what a fing bit*h.
> 
> stay strong! good luck.


Thank you very much. 


the guy said:


> I suggest you impliment your rights as there father....like the lawyer said you have every right as much as her....so hire a securty firm / PI and find your kids and go get them in the middle of the night while you ex is out parting with her boyfriend.
> 
> Hell the PI might even beable to get them early in the morning while she sleeps off her drunk. Anyway, if you get the right poeple they can find them and extract them from that unhealthy inviorment.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice. I do have someone searching for them out there. She has made it known that if she even smells a process server that she will ignore it and hide with the kids even more. This is like walking on glass at the moment just to be able to get her to let me talk to them. Its mind boggling that she has no respect for the kids. 

I wish I can say more but right now I have stay quiet for my kids’ sake.

SF


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

No its not mind boggling, I often hang out in the Copping With Infidelity forum here at TAM and you would be suprised what the waywards souse does.
Si my friend please understand that the influence the OM (other man) has on your wife is like a fog. In this fog she only see's the OM and nothing else matters. So you see how danderous your kids are in right now.
Granted she took them along to go see OM, but now that thats done she has no regard for them other then letting them be watched over by a women she has no respect for and dislikes.

So this fog I mentioned is very thick and she is no were near coming out of it anytime soon. So I suggest that you and your "team" act swiftly...and yes in this case you will need a team to protect your kids and your self.

I hope that gives you some understanding on whats goin on...yes it painful but when it comes to infidelity you can throw logic and common sense out the window.

Ths OM has greatly effected your wife and her disicion process and is not the same women she was before the affair started. You might even be able to put a time on when it all started by looking back at the red flags like the distancing her self and walking out to have a private phone calls, even a increase in texting and turning off her computor when you walk in.

Have you even looked at the phone bill? It may give you a great lead by having a phone # that was called alot.

I understand your concerns about to much info so feel free to respond to me and others thru PM (private message)


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## bkaydezz (Jul 9, 2012)

oh nooooooooooooo i knew she was hiding something. but if she didnt want to be with you. she certainly went the very wrong way about this all. especially with the youngens. i hope you get your justice good sir!


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## Ansley (Apr 5, 2010)

Sadfather said:


> Text is locked and copy sent to my email for backup. The text is damaging. I would tell ya'll what it said but in fear that she may find this forum. I think I will wait a bit.
> 
> As for sending it for some zing, no she screwed up sending it because she was blaming and trying to explian it as something else fast but it's pretty cut and dry that it was to someone other than me.


Piece of work! Again I am so sorry she put you through this. I know for awhile you were really wondering what you did wrong... Wow. When this guy screws her over what will she do?


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

KanDo said:


> PLEASE DON"T GO OUT AND GET THE KIDS! You want to be as clean in this as possible. I suspect her actions may have a positive effect on you getting primary or even sole custody of them.
> 
> Good luck


Yes the idiots who make the rules in the domestic court scam will chop a man's legs off should he do exactly as your wayward wife has done.
They consult the "expert counselors" who are the very same ones who insist that anytime a wife cheats, it is 90% the husbands fault since he is usually the one who will end up paying for the charlatan's "services".


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## Sadfather (Jul 3, 2012)

the guy said:


> No its not mind boggling, I often hang out in the Copping With Infidelity forum here at TAM and you would be suprised what the waywards souse does.
> Si my friend please understand that the influence the OM (other man) has on your wife is like a fog. In this fog she only see's the OM and nothing else matters. So you see how danderous your kids are in right now.
> Granted she took them along to go see OM, but now that thats done she has no regard for them other then letting them be watched over by a women she has no respect for and dislikes.
> 
> ...


You my friend are so right on so many levels. As for her cell phone, it was one of those non-contract $45 unlimited everything deals. No records for me to see but it is a smart phone and I am trying to find that way you can track a non contract smart phone. So far no luck but who knows. 



bkaydezz said:


> oh nooooooooooooo i knew she was hiding something. but if she didnt want to be with you. she certainly went the very wrong way about this all. especially with the youngens. i hope you get your justice good sir!


Thank you so much. She did go about this the wrong way. My kids should not be used as pawns or even witness whatever relationship she is trying to start right now. She has no respect to our kids or their feelings. It's sad what they may be seeing right now. 

She has been trying every day to make it fun for them since they have been there though. When I have had a chance to talk with them, they keep telling me about going to the lake, the park, and fireworks on the fourth, and she's planning on taking them to the beach this coming weekend. She's trying to be supermom now. It's sad that in the last two years, she has not done that here. I worry about my kids and their emotions when she starts to fail them again.



Ansley said:


> Piece of work! Again I am so sorry she put you through this. I know for awhile you were really wondering what you did wrong... Wow. When this guy screws her over what will she do?


She will suffer whatever happens on her own without any support from me. Once you betray my trust I had in you. I will never be there again when you need it. She is the mother of my children but I will never feel sorry for her. I am over it regarding her and whatever happens in her love life.



hookares said:


> Yes the idiots who make the rules in the domestic court scam will chop a man's legs off should he do exactly as your wayward wife has done.
> They consult the "expert counselors" who are the very same ones who insist that anytime a wife cheats, it is 90% the husbands fault since he is usually the one who will end up paying for the charlatan's "services".


Fortunately this county we are in do give the dads a fair shake I have been told. So I pray they will look at the facts of her actions and know that I do not want to deny her the kids but only protect and raise my kids in a safe stable environment that they are used too. In other words she can have supervised visitation here where we live until we have all this sorted out in the courts but I will spend all my money to be able to make sure that my kids will not leave this state ever again unless it’s a true vacation that I am taking them on.

Well, I will update you all soon with more when I can but for the next few days I am going to handle some business. I thank you all for your support, prayers and well wishes. It means a lot when you feel alone in the fight at night. This house feels so wrong without hearing my kids in it.

SF


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

If you talk to your kids, ask them the name of man she is with and what kind of car he drives.

You might try suggesting that he has aided in kidnapping them
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sadfather (Jul 3, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> If you talk to your kids, ask them the name of man she is with and what kind of car he drives.
> 
> You might try suggesting that he has aided in kidnapping them
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was thinking that but she has made the phone go dead when I touch on questions with the kids. When they talk to me it's always on speaker phone and she is controlling the conversation.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Is she using her cell to call you?

Just wondering if you can get a location that it's being used from on the bill or online call log?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Sadfather said:


> I will find out sometime today if they will do an emergency hearing. As for what my attorney said, he said that it's not a guarantee that the judge will find this an emergency. As for charges against her, everyone from the police and him said that since there was not a custody agreement that she had a right to the kids as much as I do. He said, I understand but she took them in the middle of the night. She won't give us an address as to where they are at. She is under medication that she left here and is not taking it which stopping cold turkey can lead to dangerous withdrawals. That they are with adults that may not be safe for them but he said that sometimes the judges don't believe that it's an emergency.
> 
> When I called the day after the fourth of July my ex was extremely hung over (which she never drank much when we were together) and my kids sounded scared and couldn't talk to me for more than five minutes until the phone went dead.
> This is their home where they go to school, have friends, family and a life. Not somewhere 2400 miles away. This is what they have known all their lives. I am scared for them when they realize that they are not coming home. This is dangerous to their minds.
> ...


Read your state's laws on "custodial interference" - in most states, it's a minor felony. Use this information to force action if you don't get your children back another way soon.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> If you talk to your kids, ask them the name of man she is with and what kind of car he drives.
> 
> You might try suggesting that he has aided in kidnapping them
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, do NOT try this! In fact, if and when they happen to slip up and give you details, pretend like you didn't hear it at all. Right now, you want to do everything you can that gives her the illusion that she is safe from your reach. 

Here are a few steps she is likely to take as time passes if she is telling the kids you're being mean to her now: 

- Automated call screening
- Coaching your kids on what they can and can't say to you
- Constant questioning of your kids whenever they talk to or see you outside of her presence, and it will be aimed at making them turn against you. 
- She will use non-verbal behavior to show the kids that she is happy when they act like they don't like or approve of you, and that she's unhappy whenever they say something good about you.
- She will enlist family members, friends, and others with stories about you and possibly even false allegations of abuse to get them to do what she wants. 
- She will bolt at any hint that she won't have full and complete control over whatever happens. 
- Even when you have court-ordered agreements, she will find ways around them. 

These behaviors are all consistent with Parental Alienation Syndrome (PAS), which is a form of chronic and severe emotional abuse. If it was just that she'd taken the kids because of this affair, I might not be too concerned about PAS, but when she's already saying you're being "mean" to her, BIG red flags come to mind. I encourage you to read Amazon.com: Divorce Poison: Protecting the Parent-Child Bond from a Vindictive Ex (9780060934576): Richard A. Warshak: Books to learn how to handle some of what she's doing.

As someone said, as soon as you're able, get a GAL (guardian ad litem) for your children, though it'd be helpful if the kids were available for the GAL to meet with or talk to.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

She's run off with another man. If you can find him, you find her.

See if you can track down where and when she met him, get into her email perhaps? There has got to links to him from her going back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

She has taken your children out of state and is denying you access to them. You need to go to court and have a judge give your wife's email provider a court order to give you copies of her emails that they may have backed up. These backup will go away fast as they are often only retained for 30 days so you must act fast. Also have the judge issue a court order for the calling records and text messages on the non-plan phone. The company should have a list of where she called and a copies of her text. You have her number that is all that they would need to locate the records. You must act fast as they may not be retained long and are key to you locating your children.


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## Sadfather (Jul 3, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> Read your state's laws on "custodial interference" - in most states, it's a minor felony. Use this information to force action if you don't get your children back another way soon.


The problem with that we never had a custody agreement between the two of us to enforce that. To me that is BS. Thanks for the tips again Kathy.



Shaggy said:


> She's run off with another man. If you can find him, you find her.
> 
> See if you can track down where and when she met him, get into her email perhaps? There has got to links to him from her going back.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have tried that too, no luck. Thanks



TRy said:


> She has taken your children out of state and is denying you access to them. You need to go to court and have a judge give your wife's email provider a court order to give you copies of her emails that they may have backed up. These backup will go away fast as they are often only retained for 30 days so you must act fast. Also have the judge issue a court order for the calling records and text messages on the non-plan phone. The company should have a list of where she called and a copies of her text. You have her number that is all that they would need to locate the records. You must act fast as they may not be retained long and are key to you locating your children.


 thanks, we are looking at all of our options on that. 



Shaggy said:


> Is she using her cell to call you?
> 
> Just wondering if you can get a location that it's being used from on the bill or online call log?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Now I was hoping since her phone has GPS that I can find the location. I am not too bright with this and still no luck.


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## Sadfather (Jul 3, 2012)

She called tonight again late. She wanted to tell me some truths because she wanted to make me feel better.:scratchhead:

She told me some things about her new guy who is someone from her past but hooked back up on facebook.she told me how well to do he is. How he is stable in his life. How he is really not her type since he is a "chunk". OK... Wow. A 'chunk" is how she described him as being overweight. I feel bad for this guy now. To me this is painfully obvious that she is planning on using him for financial help during her "new" life. 

She told me another reason why this is all my fault. Now I take ownership that what she said was true. I did say some hurtful things to her 9+ years ago when we first started together. No excuse for it. None. I was new to the relationship and to be honest I was a jerk since I had some trust issues back then but I did apologize to her those many years ago and every year that she has brought it over the last 9+ years. 

See, this has been her go to excuse every time she had to explain her actions towards me when she was being a little mean and out there. Well you said that to me and I will never forget that. that's her motto.

Of course you now use that for your excuse to take my kids in the middle of the night and have another affair. It's my entire fault. I am the evil one. 

We had our issues but I did trust her and I did love her. I took the good with the bad because she did have some really good qualities to her that I really liked. Her depression came and went. When it was full on, I was the problem. When it went away I was the hero. Call me naive but I was blind and yes I had faults. Yes I wasn't there all the time for her emotional ups and downs. But I did try to be there many times only to be told that she didn't want to talk about it or she didn't want me to help. 

Yes I was hurtful with some of my words in the past. Yes, I avoided some issues with her but I nver gave up on her. I did try to be there for her more than I wasn't. So I cannot guilt myself over her words tonight. I am sorry about it but I am not going to accept the blame anymore for her actions. 

The one compliment she gave me, I am a great dad to our kids. I felt like saying thank you but instead I said, I know. My kids do not need to be around her. She is an angry and confused woman. I am somewhat saddened by this since we did share a life together and made two awesome kids. 

We left the conversation with no real resolution as for her to do the right thing for our kids. She feels that what she did is right. This scares me. I am praying that this does not get any worse but of course that might be impossible at this point. 

My kids are my only worry. I want them to be safe and by GOD they will be. 

I will be back here next week with hopefully some better news. Thank you all again for your words, advice and well wishes. 

SF


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Sadfather said:


> She told me some things about her new guy who is someone from her past but hooked back up on facebook.


 Now that you have confirmed the affair with the other man (OM), you should ask the mods to move this to the infidelity section.


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## danie12 (May 30, 2012)

How to Track Down Anyone Online
http://m.lifehacker.com/329033/how-to-track-down-anyone-online 

Check this out and start searching her name, his name (if you have it), her family’s names on the search engines provided. You would be shocked at what you can find all on your own. No one can truly hide unless they go completely off the grid….which is almost impossible anymore. She is inadvertently giving you information on him, her, and were they are. You know he’s someone from her past…look at yearbook.com, too. 

If you can get access to her facebook or myspace or email or whatever other social network she may use…if she’s a gamer look on those websites too…don’t be above finding the connections to these people there. Maybe it’s illegal, maybe not (you are married after all) but if she doesn’t know how you got the info then she doesn’t know.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Actually the news about the OM is helpful since if she is with him , her threats to go underground are total lies. She's hooked to him and he won't be the type to live underground.

Also now you need to find him on FB, or better yet use the authorities to hunt him down and through him, her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bkaydezz (Jul 9, 2012)

go get them. its not kidnapping if you are both married. i thought law was if oyu are married that both parents have a right to what is done with the children within reason. not uprooting them and forcefully pushing a great dad out of the way!


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Sadfather said:


> The problem with that we never had a custody agreement between the two of us to enforce that. To me that is BS. Thanks for the tips again Kathy.
> 
> (


I think you aren't quite getting what I'm trying to get across here. It does not matter what they say... they are wrong. You MUST go to the text of the law, and play hardball to get them to do the right thing. Naturally, you have to do this with a lot of emotional appeal, but if you have printouts of the law, you can go up the chain of command and make things happen. 

The cops are VERY reluctant to act on such things, but they happen to be the only actual way to apply enforcement for the law, so you have to hold them accountable.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I have a feeling OP is going to get what is best. It sucks that he now understands the why, but as OP prioritizes his own issues, for now the marriage is on the back burner.....if not completely over!

Of course it may never be a marriage again as IMO she has been a seriel cheater, with out any guilt do to some stupid words said years ago that justified her behavior. ( I now the drill give them what they want b/c we were such dumb @ss) I bet thinking back there were to many GNO (girls night out)

I know this, I lived it but in my case it lasted for 13 years and it wasn't words it was an act that I am not proud of and have taken the steps to learn the tools to be a better person.

As far as my fWW she also learned the tools to move past this painful act I did to her and has come out of the fog and owns her sh!t just like I have owned mine.

My point is we as individuals have to take responsablity for our own action, and blameshifting is one way to solidify never getting the help one needs to make the healthy change to be a better person.

Hopefully this mother (Mrs. Sadfather) gets it one day so she can be a better parent.

What ever you must do I support you 100%


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I understand you need to go dark here, due to the colvert sitch.

If things don't go your way this time, this community can give you addittional support.

If things go your way and all is successful please up date so other can learn from your experience.

worried about you brother I hope your not in jail!!!!!


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## Sadfather (Jul 3, 2012)

Hello all and thanks for the support. Not in jail but at a La Quinta in Texas on my way back from California. The good news? My kids are with me sleeping like angels. I drove out there and got them! There was some planning involved getting them and it went better than planned. We will be home tomorrow and after a day or so getting them readjusted I will post how and what happened. My kids have been through some crap and they are extremely happy I got them. Sad news is they have witnessed their mother fall hard. The first time they have ever seen anyone drunk beyond belief happened and it was their own mother. A lot more to tell. They have been been messed with hard. Once again, thank you all for your support and I will fill you all with more detailed info in the next couple days. Kathy, thank you again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cjpa (Jul 17, 2012)

Wonderful news!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I hope you have your attorney drawing up something to make it so that she cannot kidnap the chldren back.

Poor babies have been through far too much already.


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## C123 (Jun 20, 2012)

I'm sorry your children and you had to go through this but I am absolutely delighted to see this post. It made my whole day.

Good for you brother!


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## Ansley (Apr 5, 2010)

You are a great dad! Good for you! This is such good news! When you get time (if its safe) please post what happened. I am so happy you got them out of that toxic environment.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

It sounds like your team was well prepared and all went well. That is awsome and I'm glad you have them safe and sound.

Are you concerned with a counter extraction or is WW so beat down and rock bottom that the resource are even there, and if they were would she beable to but a plan together?

OM may have such a control over her that he make it so the kids are just getting in the way.

Are you considering another intervention with regards to your kids mother?

I am also curious if there were any closes calls during the visitation you mentioned in your PM?


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

I am so glad your kids are safe and with you. 

Now please get them into counseling, ASAP.

And the hardest part is, they still need contact with their mom--obviously, professionally supervised contact, but contact nonetheless. Just as she controlled their phone conversations with you, a professional (social worker, for example) can monitor their calls to their mom and keep HER from saying things that might add to the damage already done. 

I suspect she will not come back into their lives physically, at least not until the current fantasy falls apart, so you won't have to worry about supervised visitation, at least not yet. 

Did the kids see through the charade of the "vacation?" Were you able to shield them from the fact that their mom was intending never to let them see you again? The truth can be shared with them in small bits as they grow older and probably with additional counseling, to help them process the truth. You have some long term planning to do, but you also sound like someone who really understands what damages kids, and you will avoid that, for their sake, no matter how hard it is on you. 

God bless all of you.


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## Sadfather (Jul 3, 2012)

Hello all, once again thank you all for your advice and well wishes. Just another quick update: We made it home last night. I made the 4800 mile trip there and back in 5 days driving time and a total of 7 days with the time spent there. I left last Thursday night. I am tired. 

A lot to tell ya'll but like I said in my previous post. Would like to take a couple days to get some rest and have the kids adjust back to a somewhat normal life. 

Going to take them and a couple of their friends tonight to the movies and get back home and sleep a little but they needed some friends over tonight so I am sure it will be a little later until I can go to sleep but it's worth it to see them run around and laugh again. 

So yes, I will go into full detail on how I got them back and the plans on going forward to our future. I will say that all of this is pretty weird for me and I can't lie, I am now starting to mourn a little for their mom. I feel bad for what she is deciding to go with her life now but I am happy that she is 2400 miles away to do it without us witnessing it. 

SF


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

when the friends are over keep a close ear on them it may help to see how they relate thier ordeal with their friends.
You may find out alot about how they feel the true emotional impact it had as the kids (especially the 8 yr old) relates to tell there friends versus there dad.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

SF, Im quite happy you got your kids back.

Depending on how likely for your wife to come back to the house and take the kids back you may want to change the locks or even have a relative stay in the house for some time.


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## Jason439 (Jul 16, 2012)

Wow! What an ordeal. I'm so happy you have you kids back with you. Good on Ya!


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## Dr. Rockstar (Mar 23, 2011)

I stopped reading when I read that she was taking the kids to Stockton. I used to live near there, my first few years of college were there, and I have friends who still live there. So I can confidently say that if she took the kids there, then she doesn't deserve to keep them. 

Stockton is one of the worst places you can live in the US. Literally. It's been listed as The Most Miserable City in America by Forbes Magazine, and it's been in the "top" ten worst cities for over a decade. It's got the worst murder per capita rate in the US, and an unemployment rate of nearly 20%.

You tell a judge that, and you should at least get a hearing to test her mental fitness to take care of the kids.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Hopefully you've changed the locks on the family home in case she tries to follow and get in?


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Come on Sadfather, you go off and do "mission impossible"on us .......put the kids to bed and debrief us!

At what point did you feel like no one was following you?


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

I've been hoping to see a (happy) update from you. I'm so glad you were able to get them back. Distance is definitely your friend now. :smthumbup:

I know you probably aren't wanting to think about this stuff for a few days, so ignore it until you're ready, but here are some "next steps" for you to consider: 

- Get your legal judgment drawn up. In it, make sure that there are specific clauses that prevent your children's schools from allowing unsupervised access between her and your children. Our situation involved one kidnapping and another attempted one from school because the schools are reluctant to interfere, especially if they are familiar with the parent who is seeking access. 

- Be prepared for her to ask to sleep at your house when she visits and try to tempt you into returning to the relationship. It doesn't mean she wants the relationship. It means she wants the kids. 

I am glad you and the kids are safe.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

@ Kathy, come on, when she shows back up in 3 day old clothes and no bath for weeks, do you really think she just wants the kids?
Do think when she shows up hungry and broke she just wants the kids?
His WW will be hung over and hung out and don't you think that Sadfather was always 1st choice. The grass was never greener on the other side, she was just confussed and now that the OM has had her and dumped her she will love Sadfather even more? 

**************disclaimer***************

this post is ment for sarcasim and entertainment only.




This women needs at least a year to fix her self before she can even think about fixing a relationship with her kids, much less a marriage.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

WTF?????


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

the guy said:


> WTF?????


What happened?


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## Sadfather (Jul 3, 2012)

Circlecast said:


> I am truely sorry for what happened I do have to say this is why people need to actually get married instead of just "shacking up". You will get resolution just not sure what that will be



Fortunately the law considers us married and not "shacking up". I supported my family as a husband and a father. If you feel otherwise because we never had on "official" ceremony, then you don't know the laws of my State. 

As for the resolution, my attorney feels that I have enough for physical primary custody and a "common law" divorce.

As for today, my children are happy to be home. Their mother is showing her true side every day since I got them back from her. Her calls to them have slowed to a snail’s pace although since yesterday they picked up a little since her mother is now with her where she's at. So she's trying to act like the concerned mother. In that same breath she seems kind of relieved that the kids are here. 

So thank you for your concern.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Circlecast, a common law marriage is not simply "shacking up." Your post sounded pretty offensive to me, and it is clear that you're not educated on what a common law marriage is.


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## Sadfather (Jul 3, 2012)

Hello all! Once again, thank you for all the support and well wishes. 

*PART 1.*

It's been a few days now home and the kids are happy to be here as of course I am too. So I told you all that I would write on how I was able to get my kids back from their mother and today I feel up to it telling what happened and what has been happening since. This will be a long post and I will break it up for easy reading. 

So the plan I set up was really made possible with the help of my ex. She kept asking for some money. Which I told her that I would give her some money, if she were to allow me to see my kids for 3 days there if I fly out to California. Of course she said that I could not be alone with them since she is afraid I would take them and bring them home. So I agreed to whatever she said and agreed to bring her $ but she would not get the money until the last day I would be there so that I could spend the time with my kids. 

I set up the plan in order for her to be feeling in total control of the whole situation. I had to make it seem that she has all the power for this whole trip. So I told her that I would book a flight there but that she would have to rent a car or borrow a car for the 3 days so that she would be the one picking me up and driving us around and to the hotel while I would be there visiting my kids. She said that she only has $150 left in her account and that she would be broke if she rents a car unless I pay for it. I said i would cover that in cash for her as well. So she agreed. 

So I googled hotels in the Stockton area for the one that I felt would be the best for the idea I had to get my kids back. She said under no circumstance would my kids be allowed to stay any night with me in fear of me taking them from her. 

So the plan was to find a hotel with a secluded outside pool area that was at least 3 stories. I found one that was perfect. A La Quinta in Stockton. Very easy to get on the freeway and had 3 stories with a pool. It was shaped like an "L" with the pool in between each section of the L shape. The pool area was fenced off with two way of entering and exiting. It had a wall type of thing built by one of the entrances of the pool the housed their industrial trash can and parking on the other side of the wall which you can't see from the pool even though it's only about 15' from the pool area. 

There was two plans but this one was the one were going for. Get her to pick me up at the airport and have her take me to the hotel with the kids and her to check in and then go for a swim at the pool. When we check in, we would leave all of our clothes in the room after changing for the pool which I booked on the 3rd floor far from the pool. 

We would go swimming and hang out at the pool for a few to have fun with the kids. I know her pretty well. Anytime she goes swimming she has to go to the bathroom. So I was betting she would that day too and go up to the room to do so leaving us in the pool area. She would be comfortable since she would see that I left everything in the room including my shoes. Which by then my team, which had a key would have already retrieved my stuff and the kids clothing from the room by the time she would make it up there. 

As she would have gone up there away from the pool, I was going to tell the kids that there is a surprise for them in the parking lot. Grandma is here to see them too. So we would leave the pool and go to the awaiting car on the other side of that brick wall and leave. 

Well, long story short that didn't happen. 

I left on Thursday night from my home with my mother in a rent a car for the 2400 mile trip to California where they were at. I drove straight through only stopping for 5 hours to sleep and of course random gas and coffee fill ups. 

We made it to Stockton Saturday night around 10PM. We booked a room and slept until 8 the next morning and left to check out the area where my kids are. I found the house via GPS tracking on her phone that I bought her 3 weeks before she left. 

I was shocked and horrified to the neighborhood they were at. I made video of the street and the surrounding area. It was bad. I was able to confirm the house they were at by parking a little always away and was able to see my kids when they went out front for a few moments. Thank GOD for GPS. It was right on the money. So now I know where they are at. We then checked the hotel and it was perfect for the plan. We walked around there and thought of the "what ifs" and such. But we were happy with the plan.

It was hard but I had to stick with the plan. So we left Stockton and drove out to my Aunts house in San Jose, Ca to meet up with her and to go over the plan for the next day. That Sunday night I didn't sleep an ounce.

We left with the investigator, my aunt and my mother at 5AM Monday morning to Sacramento airport to drop me off there early since my ex thinks that I am flying in. We get there pretty early, around 8AM. So we parked and went over the plan for the next few. Thinking that she may show up early they dropped me off around 9:30 and i went inside the airport and layed low looking at the entrances to see if she shows up early. 

My flight was to arrive at 10:40AM and I kept looking at the screens to make sure that it was on-time and it was. So far it was looking good. No sign of her or my kids yet. 

OK, plane arrives and people are leaving the upstairs gate areas going down the escalator the baggage area so I go and blend in with them like I was on the plane. I didn't have to though; there was no sign of her and my kids.

I go outside where the pickup area is and I called her to let her know that I was there and waiting. She answered and was freaking out because she is about to run out of gas she said. I said why? Didn't the rental car place put gas in it? She said that her card was for some reason declined for her to rent a car. I said why? She said she didn't know why but that they charged her for the car and it's holding up her money. I asked how is coming to get me? She said she borrowed a car from a friend but didn't have enough money for gas and she is right on the exit but is afraid she might run out of gas at the airport. I said just get here and I will put gas in the car if we can make it the gas station. There was one at the front of the airport but I didn't say that I knew that. 

Well they pulled up and my kids were screaming to see me. I have to admit I was tearing up seeing them. They looked tired and worn out but were excited seeing me. My ex looked night and day diferent. I was shocked to see her. She looked tired and worn out but also she lost a lot of weight in 2 weeks. A lot of weight she has lost. She didn't really say much to me but hi and I said hi back. I jumped in the car that was really beat up. I asked her whose car is this. She said a friend and left it at that. She drove to the gas station and I put in $25 in gas in there while my kids kept telling me they missed me. I was so excited to see them. She on the other hand wouldn't say anything to me really. I was being very nice to her and just saying things like I hope you are alright and such.

We got the Gas and start on our hour journey back to Stockton where my team is already back and waiting in hiding near the hotel. On the way back my ex threw out a monkey wrench. We have to go somewhere before the hotel. I asked where? She said that she is going to take our oldest to the Doctors for a physical. I said for what? She said that she is going to enroll her in something that required a physical and that it has to be done today. She is whispering this to me so that my kids can't hear. I said to her no. Not today I just got hear from flying cross country to spend time with my kids and I would like to do that today. So she got mad and said that it has to be done. For some reason I was able to talk her out of it. Thank GOD. 

We are about 30 minutes to Stockton when my kids started saying, Dad we are really hungry. Can we get something to eat? Of course I said alright and asked my ex to run through a drive through or something. I asked her if she was hungry too. She said yes. So we went to a McDonalds and I bought them some food and they wolfed it down like they haven’t had anything to eat for a while. I asked my kids if they had breakfast and they said no. They haven’t had anything since the day before. My ex said they are eating but this morning was too crazy with the rental car fiasco. I didn’t push the issue with her. 
They finished eating in the car and we started once again back to the hotel. She leaned over while we were back on the freeway and said, I need to get some money today since her money on her card is being held. I said, I will only give you $20 and the rest on my last day. She got mad again and asked for $200 and I said, only $20. She said fine! So I handed her the $20 and at that point she said that she would have to drop me off at the hotel and go and get the swim clothes for the kids and come back after I check in. 

Thinking she is going to ditch me, I said no. I’ll go with you. She said no, I will go alone. I said, alone? So the kids can hang with me while you go and get their swim wear? She said no! You will take them. I said how can I take them? You have the car and you said it will only take you 15 minutes to get their clothes and come back. By the time I check in you can be back by your owns words by then. I said. She said no again but my kids over heard that discussion and started asking their mom if they can be with me when I check into the hotel. She said to them that she wants them to go with her and they started to get upset and say that they want to stay with dad. At that point I lied again to her and I will be honest that I felt bad by this but told her that it will be OK.

I am just checking in the hotel and going up to the room and wait for her. I will not take the kids. She said fine but asked for another $20. By then I was ecstatic. Oh my God! She’s leaving the kids with me. So I handed her the other $20 and she looked at me and said that if I try anything funny. She will kill me. I told her that was a nice thing to say. She said I will kill you if you take the kids. I said, OK. Although she said that she wasn’t too worried it seemed. At that moment I started to think she is crazy. 

So we pulled up into the La Quinta and she looked at me and said that if I do anything funny, she will kill me again. I assured her that I won’t. I am just checking into the hotel. My heart was beating like a drum and I was praying that I wouldn’t tip her off by my nervousness and excitement that she is leaving the kids with me. At that time, she said; leave your bag in the car until I get back. I said, come one. I want to get up to the room and get out of these clothes. She said, whatever. So my kids grabbed their toys they had in the car and I grabbed my bag and at that point and I don’t know why, I reached over and hugged her and thanked her for allowing the kids to stay with me. She looked at me and said, don’t f#$k me. I said, OK.

We walked into the lobby and I looked out the window and saw her drive off. My heart was beating like a drum. My kids sat on the couches of the lobby and I looked at them and said, give me a second kids and ran to the bathroom and called my team who were next door at Starbucks waiting for me to tell them that we are here. Instead, I told them to hurry over to the entrance. She left the kids with me! They were shocked as I was and said, OK!

I came out of the bathroom and the lady at the counter asked if we were checking in? I said, NO! Looked at my kids and said that I have a surprise for them. They looked really confused. I said, Grandma is here and will be pulling up in the front to see them. Let’s grab our things and go out there. By the time we walked out the door, the car was there and we jumped in. 
They were happy to see grandma and was kind of confused that they were being videotaped but were happy to be in the car. We tore out of there and jumped on the freeway. 

*This is part one. Sorry for so long and any misspellings or grammar but I just started typing away. I will continue here the rest in just a few hours. *


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

Man this should be a script in Hollywood!!

Your kids are glad to have a father like you.


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## Smoke (Jul 17, 2012)

If more Fathers showed half this much devotion to their children, this world would be a better place.

Your kids are blessed to have you, and I would consider it an honor to know you.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

You planned and executed very, very well! I got chills reading it. 

Is there any chance your wife is using meth now? I got that feeling from several things you wrote. I imagine you'll be saying more about some of this in your part 2.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Ya, definitely got the impression she's got an ongoing drug problem.


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## Unsure in Seattle (Sep 6, 2011)

Wow. Just wow. You are a brave, brave man.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

The way she's burned through money is a very scary development. If she's that broke how is she financing the drugs? What horrible stuff, beyond Stockton itself which is down right nasty, did they see going on?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> The way she's burned through money is a very scary development. If she's that broke how is she financing the drugs? What horrible stuff, beyond Stockton itself which is down right nasty, did they see going on?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have a pretty good idea how she's doing it. But out of respect for the OP I'm not going to say.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> The way she's burned through money is a very scary development. If she's that broke how is she financing the drugs? What horrible stuff, beyond Stockton itself which is down right nasty, did they see going on?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well she looked rough...

Hopefully nothing was done near the kids..


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## Ansley (Apr 5, 2010)

This made me cry. Not many men would do what you did!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

Any updates sadfather?


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## Sadfather (Jul 3, 2012)

keko said:


> Any updates sadfather?


Yes a lot and I will post more soon after I collect my thoughts on all that has happened recently but heres some.

Unfortunately she has made some lies since I last posted and it sucks. I can't go into full details but one thing she claimed is I stole them from her under fraud and deception. I said, no I brought my kids home and had to do it the way I did because she made it clear that she would not bring them back and that no one here will legally force her too and she refused to tell me where they were at. She left me with no choice to dangle money in front of her in order to get her to let me see my kids. I didn't steal them by the way, she left them in my care when she left us at the hotel.

So last I left off I told you all that the Emergency Order was placed and I was able to keep the kids pending a conference date in court to see if that remains. Well last Thursday was the date. She hired a local attorney from here to represent her side for her. (I wonder where she got the money?) They filed papers of course that was an answer from my "Ex Parte order" and of course it was full of lies on their rebuttal. 

She did not show up in court but her attorney was there on her behalf so she decided to go on a vacation instead with her new boyfriend. I couldn't believe she would hire an attorney but not be here for the court date. Yeah, she is really a great mom huh?

So my attorney and hers went in the back to discuss the protection order. Long story short her attorney agreed to let me have "Temporary Custody" of the kids until we can work it out at a later date. *The kids cannot leave this county *. She has visitation under "Schedule A" which is;

*-Every other weekend from Friday at 6pm to Sunday at 6pm.
-Every Wednesday night
-Six consecutive weeks during the summer.
-One week at Christmas beginning at 2pm on Christmas Day.
-Thanksgiving, and many other holidays are alternated in even and odd years and spring break is divided equally.*

(ALL OF THIS HAS TO BE DONE HERE WHERE WE LIVE.)

And she can call and talk to them. Well, her visitations are a wash since she is not here and has stated that she will not move back here. So I guess that is good. She has called them but only twice a day if that and it's never over 5 minutes each call and to be honest the kids are really tired of the calls. They keep complaining that it's the same old same old. Hi, I miss you; I love you and nothing else.

There is more but this is what I willing to tell tonight. I promise to fill you all in with part 2 of the details before and of course all the other stuff. It’s just been hard to just sit and reflect everything without my blood pressure going through the roof. I have tried to be civil with her for the sake of the kids but I am starting to realize that I am making a mistake by doing so. Well, one again I thank you all with the support and I will bid you all a goodnight. 

SF


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## Sadfather (Jul 3, 2012)

One thing I would like to add. 

My ex is saying that she wants visitation there in California. She said she wants them for all the summer months and every vacation. My kids are only 8 and 5 so please keep that in mind. Here are my reservations not in any particular order;

1. she got drunk in front of the kids and her new boyfriend drove them after he was drinking. 

2. my sister in law who is married to her brother was their baby sitter. this woman is not someone you would want your kids around. She also left my kids when she was watching them with her young kids as the baby sitters. 

3. I have feared my ex may be doing drugs. 

4. My youngest caught her mom in bed with her new boyfriend.

5. The neighborhood/town where she lives has had over 450 crimes committed in the 2 weeks my kids where there.

6. she is living with her new boyfriend who my kids don't feel comfortable to be around. They met him for the first time when they showed up there and he wanted to hug them when they first met. Weird.

7. My kids will be flying across country by themselves and them being two young girls, I worry about them having to fly so much being so young. 

8. She took them in the middle of the night already once before. Sending them there has me worried that she will not give them back.

There is more but these issues are what are concerning me. My attorney said that all of this will be looked at as hearsay and that the judge may feel that I am trying to prevent her from being a mom. They will not even hear what the kids witnessed while they were there and my attorney said that the judge may even think I told the kids to say that. So I am stumped.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

Good to hear you're doing well.

Have you looked into the possibility of drug test and psych evaluation for your wife? If you push enough you may achieve supervised visitations for her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I would think the judge should take into account that she already abducted them across state lines once already.

Have you hired a good PI to do up dirt on the bf, wife and family?

Stockton is pretty much the trash can of CA, it somehow out out did Oakland but it did it.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Absolutely no visitations to her place....Not at the age the kids are now. Also, sending them alone is a terrible idea.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Whether the judge considers it hearsay or not is not the point. Make your “witness statement” and make it in writing, signed and authenticated by a lawyer and under oath. And then submit it to the court and make it part of the documentation for your case.

Why? So that the judge looks into the future knowing he can be called into account of a wrong judgement if indeed your wife does abduct your children yet again or if they come to any harm at all due to your wife's behaviour.


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## Ansley (Apr 5, 2010)

what a great legal system we have. its supposed to protect the innocent i.e. your kids. Your ex kidnapped them. That is not hearsay...its a fact. How will that be addressed did your attorney say?


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

Ansley said:


> what a great legal system we have. its supposed to protect the innocent i.e. your kids. Your ex kidnapped them. That is not hearsay...its a fact. How will that be addressed did your attorney say?


Allow me to play "devil's advocate" for the moment.

She is the children's mother, so, without a custody arrangement in place at the time, she did not "kidnap" the children. If, for example, the father was abusive, then yes, this act would certainly be in the best interest of the children.

The OP, through his attorney, need to prove that she is unfit to have custody of the children in another State. Means of support? Sleeping arrangements? Who is she living with? Is this an appropriate living arrangement for the children? These questions would be vital in making a decision as to whether the children can visit her in another State.

In the alternative, there is no problem with her coming back to the children's home State to visit them in their own environment. THAT would be in the "best interest of the children".

If the OP has evidence of the mother having a drug addiction, no means of support, is living with a person of questionable reputation, etc. and so forth, THIS would be key to keeping the children at home.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

@SurvivorWife

Except she did abduct the children in the middle of the night and moved them across the country without telling her husband. She then refused to tell him where they were living and threatened to go underground with them if he tried to find out where they were.

I wonder too if it's possible that the BF and family members that helped her do this could some included as accessories/conspirators.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

You're a good man OP. TO keep so level headed and calculating...it's wonderfully cunning. All for a good cause.


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> @SurvivorWife
> 
> Except she did abduct the children in the middle of the night and moved them across the country without telling her husband. She then refused to tell him where they were living and threatened to go underground with them if he tried to find out where they were.
> 
> I wonder too if it's possible that the BF and family members that helped her do this could some included as accessories/conspirators.


Yes, I understand the story and was just trying to present the "legal argument" she may use on her side in order to gain visitation across State lines.

The point is, what she did was wrong, but wasn't a crime as there was no Court Order to prevent her from taking her children out of the State. At THAT particular point in time, there is no legal consequence to her action that can be taken.

HOWEVER, at THIS point in time there is, and the OP can certainly argue the history in an attempt to keep his children in the State. He should not voluntarily place his children on a plane to visit their mother at her request. Instead, if she wants to see them, she can come visit them in their home State.

I hope this can all be worked out while keeping the children at home with their father. And I hope the OP's lawyer has a good grasp of the situation and knows how to proceed.


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## Sadfather (Jul 3, 2012)

keko said:


> Good to hear you're doing well.
> 
> Have you looked into the possibility of drug test and psych evaluation for your wife? If you push enough you may achieve supervised visitations for her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes I have asked about a drug and psyph evalautions it's just hard without visual and physical proof to get that I have been told. 



Shaggy said:


> I would think the judge should take into account that she already abducted them across state lines once already.
> 
> Have you hired a good PI to do up dirt on the bf, wife and family?
> 
> Stockton is pretty much the trash can of CA, it somehow out out did Oakland but it did it.


Stockton is trash. As for dirt on them. I have been working on that. I hope the judge takes what she did in account but then again her argument now is I stole the kids from her by fraud and deception when I brought them home. She does not even fathom that what i did was right for our kids. 



AFEH said:


> Whether the judge considers it hearsay or not is not the point. Make your “witness statement” and make it in writing, signed and authenticated by a lawyer and under oath. And then submit it to the court and make it part of the documentation for your case.
> 
> Why? So that the judge looks into the future knowing he can be called into account of a wrong judgement if indeed your wife does abduct your children yet again or if they come to any harm at all due to your wife's behaviour.


Thanks for the tip. I will bring this up to my attorney. 



Ansley said:


> what a great legal system we have. its supposed to protect the innocent i.e. your kids. Your ex kidnapped them. That is not hearsay...its a fact. How will that be addressed did your attorney say?


Since there was no custody agreement it was not kidnapping in the laws eyes but it was interference of my parental rights. She also admitted that she was going to create connections there for my kids so that she could keep them there. Of course it's all he said, she said in the laws eyes.


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## Sadfather (Jul 3, 2012)

survivorwife said:


> Allow me to play "devil's advocate" for the moment.
> 
> She is the children's mother, so, without a custody arrangement in place at the time, she did not "kidnap" the children. If, for example, the father was abusive, then yes, this act would certainly be in the best interest of the children.
> 
> ...


Evidence is the key and you are right on so many levels. It will be hard to prove what she is doing 2400 miles away. I am battling with myself everyday over making her an unfit mother. I truly hope that she would have come to her senses and just make the right decisions for the kids sake but everyday she is truly showing that its about her and not the kids. 



Shaggy said:


> @SurvivorWife
> 
> Except she did abduct the children in the middle of the night and moved them across the country without telling her husband. She then refused to tell him where they were living and threatened to go underground with them if he tried to find out where they were.
> 
> I wonder too if it's possible that the BF and family members that helped her do this could some included as accessories/conspirators.


 Common sense is she did take them in the middle of the night and yes it feels like kidnapping but in the eyes of the law she had a right to take them whereever she wanted. Just like I had the right to bring them home from there. Yes she refused to let me know where they were at. Yes she told me that she would not let me see my kids. That was until I was able to trick her with the lure of money. Which I do feel bad that I had been left with no other choice from her by doing that. 



sinnister said:


> You're a good man OP. TO keep so level headed and calculating...it's wonderfully cunning. All for a good cause.


Thank you but to be honest with you my heart hurts everyday over all this. I never wanted my kids to be without their mother or father in their day to day lives. I wish she would wake up and be a mom to these kids and move back here and get her job back. Of course we could never be together but we could be the kids parents together but her actions and ideas are no longer stable in my eyes for that to work now. 



survivorwife said:


> Yes, I understand the story and was just trying to present the "legal argument" she may use on her side in order to gain visitation across State lines.
> 
> The point is, what she did was wrong, but wasn't a crime as there was no Court Order to prevent her from taking her children out of the State. At THAT particular point in time, there is no legal consequence to her action that can be taken.
> 
> ...


Yes you are right there is no legal consequence for her actions that night. What she did was fine in the eyes of the law. It's sad but true. She can see them here now legally but she is choosing to not take advantage of that.

She still feels that her family, boyfriend and other friends there are what's more important. It's sad and the kids are not blind to it. Unfortunately they cannot voice their opinions on the matter in the eyes of the law without her painting a picture that I put them up to saying what they have been saying. 

I have offered her help here. I have offered to make it easy for her to come back and for us to be parents to our kids after counceling. She keeps turning that kindness into this whole "I want her back" thing. I do not. I just want her safe and to be a part of my kids lives as I am but she working on her own demons now that does not understand common sense. After all that has been said and done. I don't want to have any of us hurt by this. She on the other hand does not get it. 

Well, thanks again to all of you and I pray that some kind of peaceful action will come out of this but unfortunatey I don't think that will happen.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Sad, here are the steps I encourage you consider: 

1. Ask your attorney for guidance on recording conversations so that you can document what she says to you and your children on the phone. Whenever you get a chance, explain your concerns to her on the phone - the crime rate, that the girls don't like the other guy and why, that her behavior was not in the girls' best interests. You may get some good incriminating evidence. 

2. I hate to say it, but your attorney sounds like 8 of the 10 we dealt with who do not understand parental alienation very well. I hope you'll find one who does because if you don't, you'll be going through the wringer for the next 13 years or so. 

3. Request a Guardian ad litem be appointed for your children. The GAL will talk to your children (and other people, like your ex, their teachers possibly, etc.) in order to help the judge determine what is in the girls' best interests. 

4. Introduce every delay and postponement you can before you see a judge. In this case, delays are your friend, because soon the children will be old enough that the court will let them make their own decisions on the matter. (State laws vary on how old a child must be before being able to say who they want to live with and whether they want to visit.)

5. Insist that your attorney get her to complete a psych eval, and file interrogatories to find out how much she is earning, how she is earning it, what her monthly bills are, and what her living situation is like. (This is how you *get* evidence when you don't have it, rather than being something that is ordered when everything is already known!)

6. Make sure your attorney's motion includes all that "hearsay" in the first place. It's true that it cannot be used as a basis for making a judgment, but don't think for a minute that those things can't be described in the motions you initiate. When they are, it will put her on notice and she's likely to worry that they *can* be brought up (even if her attorney tells her they can't.) The best attorney we had did this, and the results were astoundingly fast and effective compared to all the others.

It looked a little like this in the motion: 

"Whereas, the defendant showed extreme disregard for the minor child by taking the child from her parent by removing her from her classroom without letting her say goodbye to her friends or family, and 

Whereas the defendant has consistently and repeatedly interfered with visitation on (dates), and...

Whereas the defendant has moved with the minor child to a location where the minor child has no significant emotional ties and....

Whereas (six other times for other stuff)...

The plaintiff is seeking full custody with supervised visitation as this is the only responsible way to ensure the minor child's best interests are met." 

All those "whereas" statements can be hearsay, but they *DO* influence a judge's perspective in a huge way, because otherwise the judge doesn't have a clue about the details.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I though you were long gone, glad your back.

Now I'll need to get caught up with your thread, last time you posted you jsut got back from CA and were getting the kids adjusted.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I can only pray that your STBXW runs out of resources and gives up out of lack of such resources.

I guess you will know when her phone gets turned off and the phone calls stop.

It suck to think about but STBXW current sitch could be effecting her in a way that will lead to more drinking and more drug use and less money to fight.

It sucks to say but her current lifestyle and downward spiral might be the best for the kids. Who knows maybe in the next few months a DUI or a drug bust will come in to play....sorry brother but your best chance right now is if your STBXW ends up in jail.

Anyway you got alot of great advice and you must continue to protect your kids, this may even be a wake up call for your STBXW and she will fight even harder. Especially if she found the means to get a lawyer. IDK.


Have you though about doing a back round check for the OM?

Again the court system has away of dragging on so time is on your side.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

KathyBatesel said:


> 6. Make sure your attorney's motion includes all that "hearsay" in the first place. It's true that it cannot be used as a basis for making a judgment, but don't think for a minute that those things can't be described in the motions you initiate. When they are, it will put her on notice and she's likely to worry that they *can* be brought up (even if her attorney tells her they can't.) The best attorney we had did this, and the results were astoundingly fast and effective compared to all the others.
> 
> It looked a little like this in the motion:
> 
> ...


I was wondering about that. I just guessed, intuition, that it would be something I’d do. But then I wondered what I’d do in the face of someone like Sad’s lawyer who said these things aren’t relevant. For me lawyers are for instructing, for me telling them what to do as well as advising me.

But I wouldn’t want to instruct a lawyer who saw such things in a negative light.

So there you go Sad, based on KBs experience you most definitely need a lawyer who tells you to write all the hearsay down so it can be presented to the court and wouldn’t have it any other way!

You may want to write yourself out a hunting check list of what you need in a lawyer so you know what you’re looking for. Me I’d leave the one you have behind because by the sound of it he’s already given you some seriously bad advice.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

I learned a lot after going through a decade of what he's going through, and I don't have a lot of respect for attorneys because of what I saw from most of them. On the other hand, the ones who do their jobs well are worth every dime they earn and a dozen roses.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

KathyBatesel said:


> I learned a lot after going through a decade of what he's going through, and I don't have a lot of respect for attorneys because of what I saw from most of them. On the other hand, the ones who do their jobs well are worth every dime they earn and a dozen roses.


A person with your experience KB, the capability to clearly articulate it AND a willingness to help out and advise others is worth their weight in gold. And a dozen roses, never heard that before, cool.


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## Sadfather (Jul 3, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> I learned a lot after going through a decade of what he's going through, and I don't have a lot of respect for attorneys because of what I saw from most of them. On the other hand, the ones who do their jobs well are worth every dime they earn and a dozen roses.


I can't begin to tell you how much I apprecitate your help through this. Thank you!


AFEH said:


> A person with your experience KB, the capability to clearly articulate it AND a willingness to help out and advise others is worth their weight in gold. And a dozen roses, never heard that before, cool.


+1:smthumbup:


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Sorry that I didn't read through everything... my 'fight' was local but I learned a few things:

1) start keeping a journal. You can put "heresay" in your journal and your journal is admissible. Plus it's a great way to vent as well as keep track of dates and other important things like conversations with her.

2) California | Children's Rights Council
I was able to get an attorney for my daughter via local chapter of Council for Children's Rights. Their belief is kids should NOT be in the middle and they work cheap (income based) and their sole purpose is to determine what is best for the children and represent the child. They don't work for you - they work for the kids. They assign a custody advocate, interview all parties, etc... I don't know how it works when parties are in different states but I knew I was providing the best home environment when out of the blue my ex kept my daughter for a month (3 weeks past his vacation week). I had to put my trust in her guardian ad litem and the recommended to the courts that I maintain custody.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

I wish there had been a Childrens' Rights Council in one of the states we'd faced these issues. Our guardian ad litem was definitely not income-based, but this is one of the most important things that can be done for your case, in my opinion.


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## Sadfather (Jul 3, 2012)

EnjoliWoman said:


> Sorry that I didn't read through everything... my 'fight' was local but I learned a few things:
> 
> 1) start keeping a journal. You can put "heresay" in your journal and your journal is admissible. Plus it's a great way to vent as well as keep track of dates and other important things like conversations with her.
> 
> ...


All solid advice. I have kept a journel since the morning all this started. In fact it's a blog that I started. I haven't made it public but have been updating it everyday since that morning. 

A custody advocate is something I will check into and feel that its a good idea. Thank you. 



KathyBatesel said:


> I wish there had been a Childrens' Rights Council in one of the states we'd faced these issues. Our guardian ad litem was definitely not income-based, but this is one of the most important things that can be done for your case, in my opinion.


Yes I agree. I think it would help for sure. 

Well tomorrow is the first day for school here. Excited little ones here tonight before bed. I can't lie and say that I am not excited for them because I am. I am also excited for me too. This has been hard on me with all that has happened. It made more work suffer bad and I am looking forward to throwing myself into work while they are at school. 

I should now also have time to fill you all in this coming week with part 2 on my previous post. As I look back on that trip, I am still shocked by her actions. It's been a weird transistion for me to accept that she is not the woman I knew before at all. Strange how people you thought you knew, you truly do not know them at all. 9 years and it was all fake the more I realize it.


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