# How Long Is One A Liar, A Cheater, and an Adulterer?



## NewPhoenix5 (Dec 4, 2015)

In a fit of anger, I called my lying, cheating, adulterer wife a "Lying, Cheating, Adulteress."

She became upset with me because she was no longer those things. Yes she did do those things, but they were in the past and she is no longer that.

So, if you lie, you're only a liar until the sound of your voice fades? Or are you a liar until you confess the truth?

If you are a cheater or an adulterer, are you only one until you dismount? Are you cheating for a few minutes and then your not cheating for a week and then cheating again for a few minutes? Or are you a cheater until you confess and break off the affair?

Are you a liar and cheater until the pain you have inflicted upon others fades into a distant memory?

Or are you an adulterer for life?

If you rape someone, are you a rapist for life?

If you murder someone, are you a murderer for life?

If you a child predator, and you stop, is not your location known so that the families with children around you can protect themselves.

My (ex?) wayward wife says that it was consensual between two consenting adults and that it is different than rape. 

Legally, it is not against the law to become an adulterer. But that does not mean it is without a victim. The victim of adultery may feel more pain that a rape victim, at least that is what some rape victims say whom also are victims of adultery. 

Does the fact that adultery is legal mean that the title of "adulterer" is only temporary? Or if you commit adultery, are you forever an adulterer? If not, how long does that title apply?


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

You need to get your anger under control because you have become downright abusive. You refused to take any advice in the beginning thinking you knew best. Well, you didn't know best and now you're pissed about it.

It's gotten to the point that I wouldn't blame your wife if she divorced you. You're mean & controlling. The perfect traits of an azzhole.


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## rockon (May 18, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> You need to get your anger under control because you have become downright abusive. You refused to take any advice in the beginning thinking you knew best. Well, you didn't know best and now you're pissed about it.
> 
> It's gotten to the point that I wouldn't blame your wife if she divorced you. You're mean & controlling. The perfect traits of an azzhole.


Damn Blondilocks, don't hold back!:smile2:


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## bigfoot (Jan 22, 2014)

Why even ask this question? Why bring legality into it? There is no simple answer.

Grammatically, she was a liar, she was a cheater, she was an adulteress. Why? Because at the time she was lying, cheating and committing adultery. If she is not, presently doing those things, then she "is" not one now. In the present tense, she is one who lied, she is one who cheated, and she is one who committed adultery. 

In another sense, she is one who has proven that she can do all of those things, and did all of those things, so like an alcoholic who has not touched a drop for decades, she is still those things under the right circumstances. In that sense, just as the non drinking alcoholic states, "I am an alcoholic", she is those things.

Others say, she is a former liar, former cheater, etc. Sort of like the grammatical concept above. 

In the end, what matters is what YOU think. If you think of her as those things, then, to you, she is those things. After all, you are the one who is married to her and who is sticking with her. Therefore, if at your core, she is those things, then she is. If she is no longer those things to you, then she is not.

I am perplexed by your question because from your history on two different boards, it did not matter when she actually was those things (in the grammatical sense described above) as a result, why does it matter to you?

Finally, if she remains those things to you, SHE may not wish to remain with you because you will treat her accordingly. That is why I said that it only matters what YOU think about her.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

an ex-con is an ex-con, you can't erase the fact someone went to jail. same with cheating....once you have cheated, you have that label, its not like you can erase the past...call her a reform cheater...or ex-cheater.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Depends.

At an absolute, bare minimum, though...

Until the lies stop, all of it applies.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NewPhoenix5 (Dec 4, 2015)

bigfoot said:


> Why even ask this question? Why bring legality into it? There is no simple answer.
> 
> Grammatically, she was a liar, she was a cheater, she was an adulteress. Why? Because at the time she was lying, cheating and committing adultery. If she is not, presently doing those things, then she "is" not one now. In the present tense, she is one who lied, she is one who cheated, and she is one who committed adultery.
> 
> ...


It very much mattered to me then. I was told by her that they were just friends and I believed her, foolishly. Then when I found out they were more, I was told that she would divorce me if I forced her to stop. I foolishly believed she would not commit adultery and she used my near absolute trust to hurt me much further. When I found out she had had sex with him it killed me.

I find your answer, "What do YOU think" as key. How can a definition of someone be defined by what another thinks? While I have some trust now, I am still hurting terribly by what she did. So to me I still FEEL like she is an adulterer. I still FEEL like a cuckold. I still FEEL that she doesn't understand fully what she has done and arrived at what remorse she can feel.

I feel that there will be a point where she will fully understand how and why she broke bad and that she is working on herself to make herself safe again (or as much as she can). Perhaps I will reach a point where the pain fades and is a distant memory. Also, maybe she will have made amends to me in some way to make up for a piece she has done. The problem I still have though is that she never has admitted that she is an adulterer. It jumped from "YOUR CRAZY AND CONTROLLING" to "What I have done in the past was wrong...". Somewhere in there I need a space to call a spade a spade. 

Now I have not ever called her any names that I could have called her. OK, I did call her a "jerk" once. Blondilocks, I am so non-controlling it's a personality issue for me. Yes, I was in denial and I was trusting. No, I didn't act quickly and divorce her like you all told me to do and I am now suffering as a result. But she is choosing to stand with me now and take my hurt and my pain because she wants this marriage to recover and she wants to learn to be a better person, as do I. I carried the **** for two years and now it's her turn to carry a little too.

Thanks for your input.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

So when is the divorce?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

Why focus on the label? Why focus on what was done in the past? The only thing you can do with the past is learn from it. Both the betrayer and the betrayed.

My husband had a 10 year EA. I don't look at him as a "cheater". I consider him someone who betrayed me, who better damn well not betray me in the future. I betrayed him, and I will not betray him in the future.

I'm focusing on being a better wife, a better person, a person who will never do these things again. What I did 3 years ago does not define who I am today or who I will be tomorrow. It will force me to look at myself as a whole, who I was then and who I want to BE now. And it should be the same for my husband, and I think it is.

There's no need for labels as to what to call someone if they are genuinely trying to change. If they are still exhibiting the same behaviors, the lying, the cheating, then yes they are those things. If they are trying to grow and change, leave the labels behind.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

I didn't tell you to divorce her. But, I'm telling you now that if you don't get the anger under control where you are not calling her at work and raging at her or raging at her at home, she may very well leave you. It doesn't sound like that is what you want. You say you're not controlling, but that is exactly what you did with the finances. You've still got the problem your wife has with your family. 

It's too late for you to work this the way you should have worked it in the beginning, but that does not give you license to take out your bad decisions on your wife. Tell her flat out that you want to hear her say she was an adulteress. If that gets your motor running, more power to you. Or, just file for divorce and put both of yourselves out of your respective miseries. 

You may not realize it, but the raging is just as hard on you as it is on her. Want to drop dead while in the midst of a rage? Keep it up.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

I'm with Bigfoot.

Technically she WAS those things. You cannot say she IS those things unless she is currently doing those things.

But let me tell you a little secret that I had to discover about myself in the weeks after I discovered my wife's EA.

Abusing her as a consequence for her EA was not justice. It was just abuse.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Why are you still with a woman you clearly hate.. If you forgave her, it means you do not keep throwing it in her face. It not, divorce and get on with your life. 

Yes you are in the wrong now. Pain still yes, your wifes fault no. You are the one causing the pain now trying to R.

You are unable to forgive her.........


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

ABHale said:


> Why are you still with a woman you clearly hate.. If you forgave her, it means you do not keep throwing it in her face. It not, divorce and get on with your life.
> 
> Yes you are in the wrong now. Pain still yes, your wifes fault no. You are the one causing the pain now trying to R.
> 
> You are unable to forgive her.........


I agree. If you have forgiven her,if she is remorseful,and you want your marriage,you need to stop this abuse.
Many folks,good,kind,normally forgiving folks,cannot get past the abuse of cheating. If you are one of this majority,best to end things.


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## Be smart (Feb 22, 2015)

Ohh another thread from you and I thought you are going to Divorce her. 

Your wife never stopped cheating on you.


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## NewPhoenix5 (Dec 4, 2015)

*Guy,* I have had papers for divorce drawn up and she has seen them. She realizes that I will likely divorce her now. She never even considered that I would do so while she was in the affair, if what she is telling me now is truthful. I feel, as many do, that infidelity kills a marriage. I view my marriage as now in hospice, but hoping for some miracle. Why is it in hospice? Because it seems to me what she did was a deal breaker for me. I don't want that to be the case and I am trying to figure a way out of it.

*LosingHim,* Why focus on the label? I don't think I should be but there is something there that really matters to me. If a person who raped you and walked off free without consequence came up to you and said, "I am not a rapist". You would say, "Yes you are!" If that same person was did 2 years in jail and was divorced by his wife and was obviously remorseful, came up and said, "I was a rapist" You would be much more inclined to say, "yes, you were, but are no more."



> There's no need for labels as to what to call someone if they are genuinely trying to change. If they are still exhibiting the same behaviors, the lying, the cheating, then yes they are those things. If they are trying to grow and change, leave the labels behind.


I agree entirely. There is a point where we are not rugsweeping this, but there is also a point where you become resentful and abusive. For many months people told me, "Find you anger!", "Realize what she is doing and admit it to yourself", "Stop rugsweeping!", "Take your wife off the pedestal". OK, I have done that and I am coming to terms that the woman I married is not or was not the kind of person I thought I married. If I cannot let this go, then I cannot remain married to her. She knows this and I know this. I believe she is not cheating any more. I believe she is still hiding some of the truth, thinking it will hurt me more, which is true. The behaviors that she exhibited: Selfishness, entitlement, disrespect, and abusiveness, were there a decade before the affair. I know she cannot change herself in a week or a month or a year. It is and will remain an effort for a lifetime. I require and am working on that same effort to change me.

*Blondi*,


> But, I'm telling you now that if you don't get the anger under control where you are not calling her at work and raging at her or raging at her at home, she may very well leave you. It doesn't sound like that is what you want. You say you're not controlling, but that is exactly what you did with the finances. You've still got the problem your wife has with your family.


Anger is not my vice. I have become, in my life, an expert at stifling it and ignoring it or controlling it. What I have expressed in the past three years is about what she expresses when the dishes aren't done. Lying or a deception is about control, so I agree with you there, so I have work to do on that. Part of expressing my anger, which is so very rare, is my work in being more authentic and open. I owe that to her to be open and honest about my feelings. I agree that anger is bad for you, but resentment is worse. But anger is a secondary emotion that derives it's energy from pain--the pain I feel from being devalued and losing the cherished relationship I thought I had with my wife.

Marduk,


> Abusing her as a consequence for her EA was not justice. It was just abuse.


I'm not sure how you abused your wife, but discussing the EA is very necessary. Was your wife immediately remorseful or did she tell you to **** off as she drove off to be with another man? I watched her do that and the sight of it burns me to this day.

Seven times I discovered her lying and cheating, and told her to stop the affair and I forgave her. Each time she took that forgiveness and stuffed it up my ass. She asks for it again, this time with full knowledge that what she did all those times was a PA.

But what I see in your response is perhaps what I am after: Justice.

When a thief steals something, he is a thief until it is returned or until he serves a sentence. If he knows what he stole and does not return it he remains a thief. 

But in this case my wife has given away something that cannot be returned. There is no way she can give back what was taken. What compensation can she give? Perhaps that is why the bible gives the punishment as stoning.

What many betrayed spouses choose is divorce and disclosure. That is the consequence of cheating. My wife is asking that I do not divorce her and to not disclose her cheating. How then can we set things right? Until we do she is still the thief that retains that which she stole. Additionally the other adulterer has moved on to other prey. My wife, due to fear of disclosure, has asked me to withhold any action against him. Where in this life can I find even the smallest measure of justice?

One thing is for sure, I will not get justice by calling her an adulterer. You all are right about that.

*Maxo and ABHale,*


> Why are you still with a woman you clearly hate.. If you forgave her, it means you do not keep throwing it in her face. It not, divorce and get on with your life.
> 
> Yes you are in the wrong now. Pain still yes, your wifes fault no. You are the one causing the pain now trying to R.
> 
> You are unable to forgive her.........


I do not hate her. I love her very, very much. She also loves me the same. That is why I'm not giving up on this and divorcing.

I am just in the position here where I cannot forgive her. I already forgave her seven times and she threw the R in the trash. It is too much. So how do I accept and move on -- that is what I am aiming for. If God can answer my prayers and give me the ability to forgive, great! I'm just not seeing it right now.

If I were to divorce her and expose her (which divorce certainly would do) it would be her worst nightmare, at least that is what she is telling me. I know living with someone who is resentful and angry is no way to live. I've been there for the last decade and I wouldn't recommend it. Her resentment is gone now. She says it has vanished. Well it hasn't gone, it's just been transferred to me.

I just have to figure out how to digest it and deal with it. Somewhere in my dealing with it lies justice.

I'm just trying to make my way here guys. Thanks for your responses.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Blondilocks said:


> You need to get your anger under control because you have become downright abusive. You refused to take any advice in the beginning thinking you knew best. Well, you didn't know best and now you're pissed about it.
> 
> It's gotten to the point that I wouldn't blame your wife if she divorced you. You're mean & controlling. The perfect traits of an azzhole.[/QUOTE
> 
> Blondielocks, you really need to quit beating around the bush, and just say what you really mean.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> I didn't tell you to divorce her. But, I'm telling you now that if you don't get the anger under control where you are not calling her at work and raging at her or raging at her at home, she may very well leave you. It doesn't sound like that is what you want. You say you're not controlling, but that is exactly what you did with the finances. You've still got the problem your wife has with your family.
> 
> It's too late for you to work this the way you should have worked it in the beginning, but that does not give you license to take out your bad decisions on your wife. Tell her flat out that you want to hear her say she was an adulteress. If that gets your motor running, more power to you. Or, just file for divorce and put both of yourselves out of your respective miseries.
> 
> You may not realize it, but the raging is just as hard on you as it is on her. Want to drop dead while in the midst of a rage? Keep it up.


It is rather strange that a cheater who wants to reconcile will not admit to having committed adultery. That would seem to be mandatory. I do not get it, although I have seen this type of behavior before and these folks are experts at deflection.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

NewPhoenix5 said:


> *Guy,* I have had papers for divorce drawn up and she has seen them. She realizes that I will likely divorce her now. She never even considered that I would do so while she was in the affair, if what she is telling me now is truthful. I feel, as many do, that infidelity kills a marriage. I view my marriage as now in hospice, but hoping for some miracle. Why is it in hospice? Because it seems to me what she did was a deal breaker for me. I don't want that to be the case and I am trying to figure a way out of it.
> 
> *LosingHim,* Why focus on the label? I don't think I should be but there is something there that really matters to me. If a person who raped you and walked off free without consequence came up to you and said, "I am not a rapist". You would say, "Yes you are!" If that same person was did 2 years in jail and was divorced by his wife and was obviously remorseful, came up and said, "I was a rapist" You would be much more inclined to say, "yes, you were, but are no more."
> 
> ...


Sounds as if you married an abusive , personality disordered woman, if your description of her is accurate. These folks do not change, IMO.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Xenote said:


> an ex-con is an ex-con, you can't erase the fact someone went to jail. same with cheating....once you have cheated, you have that label, its not like you can erase the past...call her a reform cheater...or ex-cheater.


There are no ex-Presidents, only former Presidents. No ex-Marines, only former marines.

She could be considered a former cheater.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

LosingHim said:


> Why focus on the label? Why focus on what was done in the past? The only thing you can do with the past is learn from it. Both the betrayer and the betrayed.
> 
> My husband had a 10 year EA. I don't look at him as a "cheater". I consider him someone who betrayed me, who better damn well not betray me in the future. I betrayed him, and I will not betray him in the future.
> 
> ...


I really hope this works for you because you are trying so hard to make your marriage work. I mean that sincerely, but you are playing with semantics in this post.


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## bigfoot (Jan 22, 2014)

Your last posts reveal so much. Throughout this whole long annoying history you dithered, rattled your sabres, and railed all while crying at the thought of having to actually go into battle. Now you got what you wanted and now you rail, sabre rattle and dither again and cry at the thought of whatever you call your relationship.

You love the concept of her. You can't square the fact that she is human and a broken, deceitful, cheating one at that. You kept your marriage like a possession, but now look at it and see how mangled and dirty it was.

Try this: recognize that you put her on a pedestal. Fix what ever is wrong with you that made you do that. Find out why you were so pitifully Co dependent and blind to obvious facts. Fix that. Then realize that she is a screwed up person too. Let her fix that. Then, maybe stay married, get divorced, or move apart for a while. 

Right now, all you want is her to obey, comply , and validate you. That will not work. You guys are so messed up and don't think that you are as bad as you really are. Get help. Professional help. Expensive, in depth, experienced, highly recommended professional help. It is your only hope whether you stay married or not.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

If justice is what you desire, then sack up and divorce her. Just stop talking to her at all. 

You're not doing that, because you're not looking for justice. 

You're looking for retribution. 

You're never going to find it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

Isn't the real question you are asking----IS THE PAST A PREDICTOR OF THE FUTURE??????


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Maybe or the other real question he needs answer to is this:
Yes, it is okay to think she is always a cheater.
Yes, it is okay to leave her because your trust is fully broken. 
No, it isn't okay to continually punish her because you feel this way. No one is right and no one is wrong in this thread, it is ALL semantics based arguments. 

If you believe "once a cheater always a cheater" you are not wrong IN YOUR LIFE.
If you feel a person loses the title of cheater once they are redeemed you are right IN YOUR LIFE.

If you are looking for the right answer from others, concerning your life, it's a fool's errand. Why? We all tend to answer, even the more even keeled posters, based on our experiences in OUR LIVES.


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

A better question for you to ask yourself is, "How long is one a powerless, bitter victim?" 
You've been one for how long now? Will you always be one?


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

How long is an alcoholic an alcoholic?


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## NewPhoenix5 (Dec 4, 2015)

zookeeper said:


> A better question for you to ask yourself is, "How long is one a powerless, bitter victim?"
> You've been one for how long now? Will you always be one?


I am very bitter. I do not know how long I will be so, but I will not be one forever. Sooner or later this will be resolved. I do have power, I know, to make huge mistakes here. Perhaps the worst is to chose not to do anything.

One option is to divorce. The other is to expose, either in partial or full. Another is to sue for Alienation of Affection. IC for her and me and MC for us both.

What I will not do is to rugsweep. I've done that too long. She and I will visit and revisit this affair issue until I see that she firmly understands that it so wasn't worth it, that she sees what a miserable little man he was, how she was played and used, how she tortured me, and how cruel it all was.

I don't do this to inflict pain upon her or to get revenge. I feel the divorce option would be much more effective if that were my goal. My goal is to motivate her enough to change herself to be better. She is motivated and she is changing. But I know if I let up too soon she will stop her improvement.

On the other side I need to change too. You mentioned "victim". Yes, I feel like a victim. I need to work on me actively choosing what I do because I WANT IT FOR MYSELF, not because I'm scared or I'm hurt or I'm used to it or I'm hiding from something. So I need to end this victim mentality by:

1) Admitting what I want
2) Being honest with who I am and who my wife is
3) Figuring out what is right for me and my children and moving towards it
4) Being an authentic "me" that my WW can either love or leave.

Nowhere in there is a place for resentment. Not with her, not with me. Only when I am confident and safe, can I be a good husband to her. Only when she has fixed herself and become a better person can she be a good wife again.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

At this date, exposure is vindictive and an attempt to get justice while punishing your wife. I remember your thread and went back to refresh my memory. You were warned and argued people like me off your thread. You dealt with NONE of the true trauma and have become fully bitter. Her cheating is not your fault, but the misery and bitterness you are experiencing now is 100% your fault.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

NewPhoenix5 said:


> What I will not do is to rugsweep. I've done that too long. She and I will visit and revisit this affair issue until I see that she firmly understands that it so wasn't worth it, that she sees what a miserable little man he was, how she was played and used, how she tortured me, and how cruel it all was.


Then don't be surprised if, after a sufficient number of revisits, that you have ultimately proven the opposite. 

Someone who is truly regretful and dedicated to reconciliation can still only suffer so much having her nose rubbed in the mess for no other reason than to see her grovel. At some point, you stop being the aggrieved partner and become that which you hate - someone whose one-sided actions destroy any chance at a meaningful marriage. 

When does righteous indignation cross the line into abuse for its own sake? Will you know when you've crossed it?


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## bigfoot (Jan 22, 2014)

Your point number 4 is your undoing. It is just another way of blaming yourself for her cheating and in the end all you would do is beg her to come back, if she chose to leave and then you'd pine away forever until she accepted that you knew what was best for all involved.

Your lecturing her so that she can see that it was not worth it is proof of the fact that you have a very unbalanced view of this relationship. Hence, if she left you, you would do what I said in the first paragraph. 


I repeat, get yourself some professional help.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> You need to get your anger under control because you have become downright abusive. You refused to take any advice in the beginning thinking you knew best. Well, you didn't know best and now you're pissed about it.
> 
> It's gotten to the point that I wouldn't blame your wife if she divorced you. You're mean & controlling. The perfect traits of an azzhole.


Yes, @Blondilocks, Phoenix is NOW an azzhole. 

A wrinkly, round azzhole, replete with veiny varicose hemmoroids.

His newly shape-shifted poop gate is the evictor of all that is foul in OP's duodenal Cuyahoga. 

His wife, the Azzhole Cheat-River Wizardess rearranged his NICE GUY brain. The After-Quake EPI-Genetic DNA Turdess then stretched WIDE-OPEN OP's OEM cute azzhole and then quickly extracted the formerly Mindflutch device, leaving the once cute azzhole to slam-shut with a *THUNDEROUS KA-WUMPA! 

**She did this*.

He is wounded and walking with wide-splayed legs. 

Yes, Dear....pile on. Oh, I know....he was told to GTFO. 

*Mr. Nice Guy did not...shame on him. *

Shame on him for being Mr. Easter Ham-strung. A jittery "June 2016 Bug".

Christ did not extract the False Nails and jump off the Cross.
He stayed true to himself. Ouch :-<




An analogous tale on the Donky-ess:

A little girl was given a Nice Guy "Ken Doll". It was the talking and laughing one. It did all the nice-guy things that real men do.

Phoenix married that same girl. She took her Nice-Guy Ken Doll [who is now grown up]. 

For selfish reasons she twisted it, smacked it against the photo of her lover, spat on it and put her cummm soaked panties over dear Ken's head.

He endured. He wanted the old girl back.

He still had the Nice Guy programming. But now it is broken beyond repair. It has a virus..delivered by a Troll-of-a-Wife.

The new Phoenix is *****ter-phase-shifted *and now imperfect.

He still needs to *GTFO*. Can he do it? I want him to.

Better? She needs to *GTFO*. She left him in limbo during the A. 

She had one-foot-in, one-foot-out the marital home "Porte".. during that period. This ballerina act left her legs *WiDE-OpEN*. 

Now THAT memory has left Phoenix's mind. *a-split, a-splunder, a-splayed*. His nose is now in the furry Canyon....his arms flaying, trying to grip the Rim. Getting a handhold to keep him from falling into the dark abyss below. The Abyss is his Wayward Wife. The hole that he does not want to fall into will consume him....driving him into...*Edgar Allen Poe's "Ever More", Insanity.* 

I get it. He IS abusing her. She* DESERVES *it.

A healthy, rational, still emphatic Man would bail on her. He would not lower his "Rules of Marital Engagement" to a level worthy of "Peanut Gallery' generated criticism.

I recommend reading Phoenix's earlier post. It says it all.

He was burned, scar tissue has formed. The rearranged and non-stretchy-fibrous-brain tissue leaves him mental-movement restricted.

I am sorry for OP's situation.

Uh, Huh.....*GTFO !*


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## NewPhoenix5 (Dec 4, 2015)

Festivus said:


> Then don't be surprised if, after a sufficient number of revisits, that you have ultimately proven the opposite.
> 
> Someone who is truly regretful and dedicated to reconciliation can still only suffer so much having her nose rubbed in the mess for no other reason than to see her grovel. At some point, you stop being the aggrieved partner and become that which you hate - someone whose one-sided actions destroy any chance at a meaningful marriage.
> 
> When does righteous indignation cross the line into abuse for its own sake? Will you know when you've crossed it?


The thing is she was definitely NOT regretful for a long time. I would hesitate to say she is remorseful now -- maybe some. Her departure from the fog took months and she still loved him. She blamed her health, her stress, my emotional distance, all sorts of things but her own choices and her brokenness. 

I'm not the perfect husband and there is lots I could do to have been a better one. But the affair was not on me. It took her 6-8 months to start to see that and to lose her love for the OM.

One thing she has never done was grovel. After she confessed to adultery, she rolled over in bed and went to sleep. 

My IC told me to wait to do any actions in response to the affair until I reached acceptance. So I did. I waited and I absorbed what she did and I accepted what she did. Now it's too late to do anything? To do anything is vindictive and spitefulness? This **** is crazy making.

The consensus here seems to be for me to back off some on the pressure to convey my hurt, my anger, my disappointment, and certainly my fury. I will work hard to convey my feelings in a way that is constructive and not vengeful.

Thanks for your comments.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

NewPhoenix5 said:


> I am very bitter. I do not know how long I will be so, but I will not be one forever. Sooner or later this will be resolved. I do have power, I know, to make huge mistakes here. Perhaps the worst is to chose not to do anything.
> 
> *One option is to divorce.* The other is to expose, either in partial or full. Another is to sue for Alienation of Affection. IC for her and me and MC for us both.
> 
> What I will not do is to rugsweep. I've done that too long. She and I will visit and revisit this affair issue until I see that she firmly understands that it so wasn't worth it, that she sees what a miserable little man he was, how she was played and used, how she tortured me, and how cruel it all was.


All wrong.

All of it.

You're trying to preach to her. You're trying to extract or extort empathy. You're trying to convert her to your way of thinking.

It will fail. It will lead to resentment. It may lead to more cheating.

He wasn't a miserable little man to her. She wanted him. All the things they did together, they did because your wife wanted it.

And nothing you will ever do will change that fact.

So, stop. Just ****ing stop it.



> I don't do this to inflict pain upon her or to get revenge. I feel the divorce option would be much more effective if that were my goal. My goal is to motivate her enough to change herself to be better. She is motivated and she is changing. But I know if I let up too soon she will stop her improvement.


Bull****. 

You want revenge. You don't want help with your pain. You don't want her support. You don't want to reconcile.

You want to be right. You want to be the victim.



> On the other side I need to change too. You mentioned "victim". Yes, I feel like a victim. I need to work on me actively choosing what I do because I WANT IT FOR MYSELF, not because I'm scared or I'm hurt or I'm used to it or I'm hiding from something. So I need to end this victim mentality by:
> 
> 1) Admitting what I want
> 2) Being honest with who I am and who my wife is
> ...


All of that is good and none of it connects with what you said above.

Not one word of it. If you don't want to be a victim, then you also need to stop victimizing with some kind of messianic complex. 

If you really believe you need to stop being the victim, then let it go. 



> Nowhere in there is a place for resentment. Not with her, not with me. Only when I am confident and safe, can I be a good husband to her. Only when she has fixed herself and become a better person can she be a good wife again.


It's all resentment.

The bolded is what you need to do. So go do that.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

SunCMars said:


> Yes, @Blondilocks, Phoenix is NOW an azzhole.
> 
> A wrinkly, round azzhole, replete with veiny varicose hemmoroids.
> 
> ...


Veiny, varicose h-roids (sp?)? Isn't that a bit redundant?


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## eric1 (Apr 10, 2015)

I agree with @Blondilocks to a degree. When I first started chatting with NewPhoenix5 he was a very nice guy, very trusting of the world. Since then (well since everything came to light) it's clear that he's been abused, her cheating was just a symptom of the bigger problem. 

Even to this day her inaction qualifies as abuse. She left a man bleeding on the side of the street yet will not bend over and offer him a hand to help him stand up.

However he's fighting back, and it's changing him. He either needs to change the situation (expose) in the event that it changes her. Because it's clear he'll never divorce her until every single option has been eliminated and given the changes in him I (disagreeing with a previous poster) feel that now is the time to consider the nuclear option of exposure. He's not going to divorce her until he's tried everything, so that's why I recommend taking the final option.

If he does not do this then he will be dead inside, and his children need a dad.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

@SunCMars, as usual, just a lot of wasted space.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

To answer the question in the original post: forever. 
It's a character trait. You can't shed character traits. 

Now Phoenix, most people have drawn on metaphors using physical imagery and scars. 
I went through heaps of abuse, and the person that emerged on the other side is not the same as the person that went through. 

Now you're bitter and angry. You have every right to be. So was I. 
You want justice (or some revenge) in some form. But you know the very nature of R means you accept the injustice thrust upon you. 
You want your WW to realize how terrible of a person she is, but she doesn't want to face that. Because very few cheaters want to look in the mirror and admit they're an awful, disgusting, egocentric person. And she hasn't. And you can't force her to (or won't). And because you're a nice guy, and you want to be seen as a good father/husband, you're staying in a position where you're less than a doormat. 
And now, you're here. 
Angry, lashing out, confrontational, bitter, resentful, and wondering where to go or what to do next. 



I was like that for a long time, and much like you (though probably with more alcohol). And I stayed in a bad situation far longer than anyone should, and had several legitimate reasons just like you can probably list off as to why you didn't divorce your wife when this all blew up. But in the long run, this was a terrible mistake. 
Because it eventually stopped. All the pain I was feeling, all the rage I had, all the injustice, everything I wanted, it left me. But I didn't have some awakening. And the negative feelings weren't the only thing that left me. 


It all left because I finally snapped. After everything I was forced through, part of me eventually shut down. It wasn't sudden, it was slow and gradual. And only in hindsight can I see it. 
I remember one time I said something that caused my sister to break down crying in front of me, and I felt nothing. No guilt, remorse, didn't even give her a consolation hug. The only relative of mine that didn't treat me like crap while everyone else was on the bandwagon of hate, and I lost any ability to even care for her. I still don't feel guilty about it, but I know I should. 

Phoenix, the reason I tell you this is because you are staying in a very toxic situation. 
Right now, your anger is pointed at your WW. 
If you don't remove the toxic portion of your life, it becomes a weed and spreads. 

You can argue with me, and say that you would never let that happen. You would never let this extremely strained relationship to interfere with your personal life, your kids, etc. 
But if one of your wife's AP (because it can't be you, that's too easy) went back in time and told you on your wedding day that your soon-to-be-wife would cheat on you with him and that she would treat you like trash, would you believe him? Or say he's wrong, and marry her anyway? 
I'd bet on the latter. 

So, with another person in the 'future' telling you to hit eject before you become an apathetic, uncaring, unloving, emotionless person, will you listen?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I think linguistically these are terms that have unspoken statutes of limitations associated with them. She earned all of those character labels and if she goes a certain period of time proving that she is none of them, then it won't be correct anymore to say she 'is a liar, cheat, and adultress.' If she cheats again, then the clock on the statute is reset.

Given her behavior in your marriage, I would say that she is still a liar, cheater, and adultress. Let some time pass where she is reliably honest and honorable & those words won't be valid as descriptors.

My .02.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Broken at 20 said:


> To answer the question in the original post: forever.
> It's a character trait. You can't shed character traits.


One does not need to shed a character trait to overcome it. Even if adultery must be managed One Day At A Time, a person can still learn from the past. 

Over-eaters can learn to manage their weight.
Alcoholics can successfully overcome their addiction
Adulterers can become good spouses.

Think about the worst thing you've ever done in your life. Should we stamp your forehead with an icon declaring to the world the fundamental character flaw that was exposed on that day, or do you think you might have learned a lesson, not to repeat that same transgression going forward?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Comparing adultery to rape is as helpful as comparing:










to











It doesn't work and it's not helping.


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## drifter777 (Nov 25, 2013)

NewPhoenix5 said:


> The thing is she was definitely NOT regretful for a long time. I would hesitate to say she is remorseful now -- maybe some. Her departure from the fog took months and she still loved him. She blamed her health, her stress, my emotional distance, all sorts of things but her own choices and her brokenness.
> 
> I'm not the perfect husband and there is lots I could do to have been a better one. But the affair was not on me. It took her 6-8 months to start to see that and to lose her love for the OM.
> 
> ...


I can feel your searing rage in this last paragraph. It makes me very sad to see any man in your predicament. You are a man for whom family is of paramount importance and you are willing to sacrifice your life in order to keep it all together. You are giving up your life for a sense of security that actually is false security. You are building on sand.

Right now you cannot see that you are hurting yourself & your WW while teaching your children how to trade the feeling of security for happiness. You are all suffering from this thing and I cannot see an end to it. You all deserve better and it's really up to you to begin the healing. I believe your current anger is probably fueling resentment that will turn into contempt and, finally, hatred. Look at how far this process has gotten in such a short time - do you really think you are going to magically heal from this?


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

NP, I, for one, am not asking you to improve your treatment of your wife. I am a fairly vengeful person. I would encourage you to drag her through the dirt to hell and back until she gets up and leaves.

She has never been remorseful, has never got on her knees begging and grovelling, snot nosed, for your forgiveness. She has been quite haughty and in her mind, her affair was fully and completely justified.

She is not moving away from that line of thought - at best she is seeing that perhaps she shouldn't have had an affair with *this* particular [email protected], but still believes that you and circumstances and her health and the dark side of the moon all drove her to do it. In her mind maybe she should have had an affair with someone more reliable etc.

So I can understand your behaviour. However … longer term … and for the well being of you and your children - stop this by getting rid of her and trying to become the nice person you once were. That is a healthier approach than keeping her around as a punching bag (no matter how much she deserves it).


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## bigfoot (Jan 22, 2014)

I could care less how you treat your wife. I only point it out as it is a reflection of your issues. Everything seems to center around her.

You are going to live a miserable life unless you change and you have been living a miserable life since this all unfolded. Actually, you have a choice not to live a miserable life. You have continually chosen the path towards miserable. Duty, honor, kids, family, and all the other stuff you have been saying as if you were earning points somewhere for the "knight's quest". Those things are important to folks who end it as well.

Explore ending it. Who gives a rat's tiny ass how she feels about it. You might find that you are happier. Live for you. Screw her. And living for you does not include the whole, "I love her so much....". It means, "I love me so much that she's history". Just explore it. Plan for it. Live it for a bit. I mean really embrace it. Who knows, it might feel good to you. Don't tell her, just start living it and then let her know.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

manfromlamancha said:


> NP, I, for one, am not asking you to improve your treatment of your wife. I am a fairly vengeful person. I would encourage you to drag her through the dirt to hell and back until she gets up and leaves.
> 
> She has never been remorseful, has never got on her knees begging and grovelling, snot nosed, for your forgiveness. She has been quite haughty and in her mind, her affair was fully and completely justified.
> 
> ...


Well said, Manfromlamancha.

Though, one of Phoenix's greatest strengths is, never quiting, never giving up. 

But, his own Mettle will break before his wife's Resolve will fracture. Hence, his greatest strength will destroy its own vessel. 

OP re-lives his Groundhog Day at Don Quixote hacienda, executing fruitless tilting at a Wayward Wind Mi·la·dy.

OP, let it go, let her go.

All the Kings Men and all the Kings Horses could not put your Frumpty Dumpty Wife, together again.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> @SunCMars, as usual, just a lot of wasted space.


The hardest lesson in life [to one who really cares] is to back away from heads that are too hard to learn and too blind to see.... SunCMars

I too have a hard head. And like a formidable crocodile, have a vulnerable soft belly, that only a steely and reasoned response can pierce.

Onegai shimasu saikyo, Hime


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

SunCMars said:


> The hardest lesson in life [to one who really cares] is to back away from heads that are too hard to learn and too blind to see.... SunCMars
> 
> I too have a hard head. And like a formidable crocodile, have a vulnerable soft belly, that only a steely and reasoned response can pierce.
> 
> Onegai shimasu saikyo, Hime


Translation: Man who walk backwards has assface.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Maxo said:


> Translation: Man who walk backwards has assface.


IMO:
Man who can *ONLY* walk backwards has Assface.

In this life, you must move like a crab. Forwards, backwards, left, right and the fore/aft oblique movements

Company, Attention!
Forward, March!
Company,Half right, March!
Company, Halt!
Company, to the Rear, half step, March!

Some, little kids see dead people, everywhere. 
To be, [not those] dead people, one must be The Crab Nebula.

The other issue:
Some men are born with slippery shoes, propelled by wobbly legs, and life forces them to walk up-hill...both ways to Sunday...school.

Those dudes are the true Assmen. They continually skid backwards, falling and bruising their posteriors on the way up.....no, down the hills.

I believe the term Assmen was coined by Emergency room personnel. They come in with the same problem...bruised glutes. 

Normal people have bruised egos when they fall down en-route to Success-ville.


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## Be smart (Feb 22, 2015)

Your wife tried to use your Daughters so she can continue with her Affair. This should be the end of your Marriage.

She defends OM. 

She never showed you e-mails between them saying this is her personal life.

She is not remorseful.

She is still in Affair.

Maybe you like living like this,who knows.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

SunCMars said:


> IMO:
> Man who can *ONLY* walk backwards has Assface.
> 
> In this life, you must move like a crab. Forwards, backwards, left, right and the fore/aft oblique movements
> ...


In the immortal words of Stymie, " You said a mouthful, brother."


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

I read your initial post, not one comment after that, but your title intrigued me. My answer is actually pretty simple, and how I view my wife currently. The wayward is all of that until they decide to stop. Once they have stopped these behaviors can they begin to seek forgiveness or even atone for their actions. Not everyone does this, and that is their prerogative. 

Speaking of my situation only, my wife is no longer a liar, no longer an adulteress. She is now my wife, but one who is capable of such actions. I have forgiven my wife, and she is seeking to atone for her actions and behavior, if that's even possible. It's not my position to say that she can atone for her choices, that is up to God. I can forgive or I can harbor my bitterness or other negative feelings, or I can forgive and forge ahead to hopefully a happier future. 

According to your words you seem to feel that she is these things or you wouldn't have called her that. Then again maybe you haven't worked through everything and you feel the need to continue to label her as such. When do you stop calling her this if she has stopped? Most likely you will stop once you have forgiven her for her transgressions. Forgiveness is up to you, you forgive or you don't. Just by forgiving doesn't mean you will be happier, but it may simplify your healing process just a little. Forgiveness is for you, not her, it's to help you move forward. 

I don't call my wife a liar, adulterer, OW, I call her my wife. I don't even call her a former WW, she is simply my wife, if I decide to assign her a title. In the entire scope of the infidelity realm I focused on what I thought to be important, assigning a title to a human being simply wasn't important to me. There were too many other things to worry about or discuss at length. I wish you the best of luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

Wow NP5, you are going back and forth through the stages of grief. Your journey is painful and full of confusion. You have no peace! 

I hope peace comes sooner than later. It is only then, that you will let her go and set yourself free.


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## NewPhoenix5 (Dec 4, 2015)

drifting on said:


> I read your initial post, not one comment after that, but your title intrigued me. My answer is actually pretty simple, and how I view my wife currently. The wayward is all of that until they decide to stop. Once they have stopped these behaviors can they begin to seek forgiveness or even atone for their actions. Not everyone does this, and that is their prerogative.
> 
> Speaking of my situation only, my wife is no longer a liar, no longer an adulteress. She is now my wife, but one who is capable of such actions. I have forgiven my wife, and she is seeking to atone for her actions and behavior, if that's even possible. It's not my position to say that she can atone for her choices, that is up to God. I can forgive or I can harbor my bitterness or other negative feelings, or I can forgive and forge ahead to hopefully a happier future.
> 
> ...


DriftingOn, 

Thank you for that. She is my wife and I love her very much. I called her those names for a reason. That reason is that she has moved on too quickly from her actions and avoids them, sometimes like it has never happened. It is important for me that she feels remorse, that she admits fully with full understanding of the gravity of what she has done.

She admitted that she knew I wouldn't like it if I found out, but she had NO IDEA it would hurt me this badly. She had NO IDEA it could ever end in divorce. She NEVER THOUGHT about the consequences, only about feeling better, as an escape of sorts from too much stress and her lack of perfection.

There is a time for reflection upon what you have done. She has reflected on her actions superficially for quite some time, but I don't think she has ever shed a tear for my pain, only for herself and how people might think of her if they found out, or how she feels she has let herself and her values down.

She is in denial of the extent of the damage. When she says she is not that, an adulterer, she does not say why. An adulterer is one until, in my opinion,

1) The action ceases for a period of time
2) The truth is fully told and the apology is made
3) There is remorse for the damage caused
4) The root cause of the choice is identified and remedied 
5) There is a measure of redress or an attempt to make amends to those hurt and betrayed

Many things define someone.

I do believe that who we are is far, far more important than who we were or what we did. She was an adulterer and she did those things intentionally. She chooses now to fix her thoughts and be caring and precise with her words. She is taking actions to isolate that which allowed her to chose that evil and to get it out, thoroughly. She will have no more male friends, she is listening to my opinions, she is careful not to harbor resentment, she is taking care to appreciate what she has and learning about boundaries and learning to self sooth her anxieties and emotions.

But I don't see a lot of remorse and I don't see her bending over backwards to remedy or make amends and I don't see her facing the truth of herself fully. But, she is trying as best she can. It takes time to change one's character and a lot of work. I do believe it can be done.

So my question is important to me. She wanted to rug sweep this all from the very beginning, but I am not letting go of this mirror because she needs help doing this. I cannot do this for her just as she cannot heal me. (I am in charge of healing me.) I am giving her some time to change herself and she had better make the best of it! I will choose to divorce her if she does not change.

ETA: I don't believe my forgiveness of her, or lack of forgiveness makes one an adulterer or not an adulterer. It is 100% achievable by the WS alone. It is up to her as to what she is. She chose to be an adulterer and she can chose to not be one. Any thoughts I have that differs from that is an error in my perception, which I seem to do often.

Again, many thanks.


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

NewPhoenix5 said:


> DriftingOn,
> 
> Thank you for that. She is my wife and I love her very much. I called her those names for a reason. That reason is that she has moved on too quickly from her actions and avoids them, sometimes like it has never happened. *It is important for me that she feels remorse, that she admits fully with full understanding of the gravity of what she has done.*
> 
> ...


She is paying lip service to reconciliation NP5. No wonder you are a mess. She is not your child to fix! She doesn't want to be fixed. Stop preaching to her, and stop forcing your values on her!

She is a different person now, if at one time she believed what you believe. That person is gone and will probably NEVER return.

Have you set a time frame to when you will file if she doesn't change? 

Your are not reconciling, you are spinning in circles and achieving nothing! You are wasting your time with someone that has no remorse and is only paying lip service to reconciliation. She doesn't love you. Don't fool yourself.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Hey NP5, first thing.

You can not change the way your wife feels about what she did or how she is getting past it. Like it or not, not a thing you can do to change it.

Second thing.

Your will never find what you are looking for on any forum. We can give advice and experiences, but the is no solution here. 

The solution has to come from with in you. Either you can forgive and move on or file for D and find someone else. That is your part in this sh sandwich. 

Your wife is who she is, you will not change her. If she does change, it will be because she wants to. Clearly she has no desire to change herself any farther then she already has. So, this is the person you have to make the decision about. 

Do you want to spend the rest of your life with who she is now or not. That is how simple the question is, because no amount of ranting raving begging or crying in your part will change who she is now. You will never have the woman you meet and loved and married, she is gone forever. The one in front of you now is what you have.....

The decision has to come from you. If you cannot get past this, no one can show you how to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jim123 (Sep 29, 2012)

NP5,

You need to keep working on you.

You give too much power to your WW.

I remember when B1 and EI started R. They seemly were headed to D. B1 kept working on himself. EI told B1 that he would make someone a great husband. She then thought and said, "Wait a minute, you will make me a great husband!"

Spend less time on the A and the old M. Build your new life. Make yourself stronger and better. If Edith wants to come along, that maybe ok.

Your fixation on OM is letting him win. Your fixation on the A is letting that win.

The best defense is always a good offense.


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## sparrow55 (Apr 23, 2016)

Whenever you hit the anger stage, you make these pointless threads to vent. You burn off emotional rage on boards like SI and TAM, probably getting satisfied when people call her names and then you disappear for a few weeks or months until reality starts hitting you in your face again.

You are just as broken as your wife, only differently. 




> I'm flying with her because she is going to some continuing education classes and they are out west and in a place where the OM would frequent. I figured that if I didn't go, I would be triggering something horrible, so I decided to go and work out of the hotel.
> 
> Plus, I love her company.
> 
> ...


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

You are a Diamond, she is a common Rhine Stone.

You have innate goodness; to your detriment........not. 

She has unfocused goodness; goodness that never left the pupal stage that is adolescence. 

You try like the devil....no, that's her inner tatoo trying to come to light; you try to project your goodness onto a common and ever-so-ordinary women, who unfortunately is your wife. 

You are Professor Henry Higgins trying to mold, tame and recreate flowergirl Eliza Doolittle. 

I have had a hard time with those folks who slice your carcass to the bone for NOT listening to THEM. WTF !

I was one of those verbose lashers, swinging the sarcastiic whip. The whip, its main body tearing into wishful thinking, baring the truth. The end of the lasher has pun-laden tassels, used as ticklers after the main leather rendered-wide the venue of the posters problem. 

The problem with the "I told you so" crowd is the lack of that which distinguishes our lot, on the boneyard that is Earth, is lack of Empathy; only employing ground-zero visualization. 

Some TAMMER's cannot get above their OWN painful [faulty?] processes and cannot get to that oft-coined 50K feet. Peering down from that height gives the person a different perspective....... more inclusive, more encompassing, less personal. 

Exemplary human's have empathy. Some on TAM only have vitriol. 

Most on this blog call you weak.......and you may be........I call you a cut-above, and closer to Sainthood than most. You are Way-Above the vast majority that roam these halls....and walk firm soil.

Good luck with Miss Doolittle.

And Good luck to you, Sir!


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## NewPhoenix5 (Dec 4, 2015)

Bibi,



> She is not your child to fix! She doesn't want to be fixed. Stop preaching to her, and stop forcing your values on her!


She is, emotionally, a child. I would place her somewhere between my 11 year old and my 14 year old daughters. My 16 year old daughter is much more stable, adjusted, and reasoned. My 7 year old daughter is still a small child emotionally. So I have a yardstick upon which to measure her! What confuses me so is that intellectually she is so accomplished, so smart, so amazing. She has such initiative and such a yearning for knowledge! But when it comes to dealing with her emotions or her feelings, she is a complete and utter mess.

She certainly does not want to be fixed by me. She rarely takes advise from anyone she knows, she just has to figure it out for herself. In the case of the affair, she has figured things out, but she has done so in a way that was intensely damaging to me. It may be a case of too little, too late.

I am very much the opposite, getting advise from just about anyone I listen to. I take it all in and boil it all down. THAT is the reason I am here primarily. I do vent quite a bit--my secondary reason for being here. Thank you for listening and giving me your opinion.




> She is a different person now, if at one time she believed what you believe. That person is gone and will probably NEVER return.
> 
> Have you set a time frame to when you will file if she doesn't change?


Yes both she and I are very different people now then when we started this nearly 3 years ago. There is no going back. I need to see marked improvement in a year in my pain or I will file. Her November TT dump prior to the second Polygraph reset me back to zero. So emotionally I am at about 7 months out. I realize this sucks. She could have confessed it all a long time ago, but she chose to stager the disclosure thinking it would have increased her chances to stay married. All that has done is hurt me more.

ABHale,


> You can not change the way your wife feels about what she did or how she is getting past it. Like it or not, not a thing you can do to change it.
> 
> The solution has to come from with in you. Either you can forgive and move on or file for D and find someone else. That is your part in this sh sandwich.
> 
> Your wife is who she is, you will not change her. If she does change, it will be because she wants to. Clearly she has no desire to change herself any farther then she already has. So, this is the person you have to make the decision about.


I understand this. BUT I can avoid her from rugsweeping the issue regarding me. I am letting her know that her behavior and her excuses are inexcusable. I will not let this rest until she works through it. I will not accept her for who she was.

If she does come around, we have a chance to make it. If she does not, and I still see her shifting blame on me or "life" and I still see her defiant and selfish, then I will be done. I cannot live with a selfish, entitled, vindictive and resentful wife any more. Change or we are done. She is in charge of her change. I am in charge of my healing. The clock is ticking and I will decide when time is up.

Jim,


> You need to keep working on you. You give too much power to your WW.


You are right on both. I am trying to change that. I am spending more time with my children and more time on "me" activities. Edith has let me know subtlety that it is hurting her, that she misses being with me and she sees me pulling away. But she knows that she deserves it and I am explaining to her that I need to spend more time on me and building other friendships and spending time with my children. I am doing so because I can no longer trust her and because it is important for my healing. I tell her so and I encourage her to do so as well with other female friends.

Sparrow,


> You burn off emotional rage on boards like SI and TAM, probably getting satisfied when people call her names and then you disappear for a few weeks or months until reality starts hitting you in your face again.


I do have rage to burn off. I did so when she was in the affair. I should have directed that rage to her at the time. 100% of it. But I withheld it because I was trying to nice her back. We all know how that worked out.

Now I am directing some towards her because it is healthy for her to know how I feel. My nature is to internalize bad feelings and overcome it. I am inviting her into me more so that she knows my feelings. While she appreciates it, it hurts her too.

This morning, we woke up and she said she felt so horrible at what she did. She asked if she could, please, just be a good wife today. So I agreed to sweep it under a rug for a bit. There is a time for digging in the mess and a time for letting things settle down and heal.



> You are just as broken as your wife, only differently.


I used to not be broken. I am working on me, as best I can.


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

@NewPhoenix5 you posted: "She is, emotionally, a child. I would place her somewhere between my 11 year old and my 14 year old daughters. My 16 year old daughter is much more stable, adjusted, and reasoned. My 7 year old daughter is still a small child emotionally. So I have a yardstick upon which to measure her! What confuses me so is that intellectually she is so accomplished, so smart, so amazing. She has such initiative and such a yearning for knowledge! But when it comes to dealing with her emotions or her feelings, she is a complete and utter mess."

Yes, right now, she is an emotional retard. She is going through a crisis, an internal (gamma of emotions all over the place) one. That is why she is highly functional in all other aspects of her life. 

She chose an external solution to her internal pollution. The affair was just the external solution that accomplished nothing and created a mess in her marriage and inside her. She may or may not return to you after this. 

She may cause more damage to the marriage with her choices to "fix" what's wrong inside her with external things. Be very mindful of how she makes herself feel better. Remember she is hurting. She is a child inside with the power of an adult outside. She can put you guys in huge debt if she decides to. Her guilt can turn inward into depression or outward into rage. Guess who is going to be on the receiving end of that rage? 

Either way this goes, it's going to be a long haul for all involved. Protect yourself, your children and your finances. They are going to get hurt in this roller coaster ride she threw all of you in. 

It is only when she realizes that the answers are within her and not external that change will gradually occur. From that point on it will take about 3-5 years. She is not even there yet. 

Are you ready to wait this long for her? Your 1 year time-frame that ends in November may be for you and not really for her. 

Your journeys are not the same. You just happen to be sitting side by side with her in her journey right now. That can change real fast.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

For as long as you _knowingly_ conceal the truth, you're a liar.

For as long as you cheat, you're a cheater.

For as long as you lie about cheating, or having cheated, or _any_ of the details therein, you're both.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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