# Religion is dividing us!!



## motherof4 (Jul 3, 2011)

After meeting my husband, I converted to his religion. He is VERY strong in his faith and wanted a wife that was also. I thought I could be that woman for him but I am not. I worry that because I don't believe that our marriage will never reach its full potential. It causes a lot of stress and arguments. I feel like I should just pretend I believe because I did commit to him and his religion before we got married. I am not keeping my commitment. I know he wouldn't have married me if I wasn't and "no" I didn't convert to marry him, at I really thought I believed in his church. This problem drives a huge wedge in-between us. Is it fair to me to be fake for the sake of my husband and 4 kids. I worry about confusing my kids if mommy and daddy believe to different things???


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## CoffeeTime (Jul 3, 2011)

Spirituality is one of the most intimate journeys one needs to make for oneself. Despite your promise to commit to his church and religion (no one can actually make a promise to believe in a specific religion) you do need to decide if this religion is going against your intrinsic value system. If it is not in line with your value system then it would do more harm than good to stay in the church. You also need a safe place to work out your feelings, doubts, faith (whatever that may be), and beliefs. If this is causing arguments and stress at home when you talk about it with him, try to find objective and safe people to talk to who will let you explore your ideas and feelings without judging you. You do not have to figure out everything right now unless this church and their belief system will do more harm than good. I've known people in cults and it is an extremely hard thing to get out of once you build your whole social support and belief system around them.

Take a breath and work it out slowly.


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## Parrothead (Jul 4, 2011)

betsyfjones said:


> After meeting my husband, I converted to his religion. He is VERY strong in his faith and wanted a wife that was also. I thought I could be that woman for him but I am not. I worry that because I don't believe that our marriage will never reach its full potential. It causes a lot of stress and arguments. I feel like I should just pretend I believe because I did commit to him and his religion before we got married. I am not keeping my commitment. I know he wouldn't have married me if I wasn't and "no" I didn't convert to marry him, at I really thought I believed in his church. This problem drives a huge wedge in-between us. Is it fair to me to be fake for the sake of my husband and 4 kids. I worry about confusing my kids if mommy and daddy believe to different things???



What religion is he? If he is in one of those mind control cults, both of you need to get out of there. 

As a Christian, though, I don't think anything that would separate a husband and wife is of God, so get that out of your head. There has to be a third way you can work out between the two of you.


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## Mephisto (Feb 20, 2011)

Parrothead said:


> What religion is he? If he is in one of those mind control cults, both of you need to get out of there.
> 
> As a Christian, though, I don't think anything that would separate a husband and wife is of God, so get that out of your head. There has to be a third way you can work out between the two of you.


The only people who say that religion is "of God" are delusional. Spirituality IS "of God" but religion is "of Man" 

All religious texts are written by men, not god. All religions are MAN's interpretations of what was written..... BY MAN.


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## Parrothead (Jul 4, 2011)

Mephisto said:


> The only people who say that religion is "of God" are delusional. Spirituality IS "of God" but religion is "of Man"
> 
> All religious texts are written by men, not god. All religions are MAN's interpretations of what was written..... BY MAN.


You're in over your head, dude. I will be happy to argue theology with you on another thread, but try to stay on topic here and leave your agenda out of it.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

Is it possible that you do believe in the teachings of the church that you joined, and that your doubt is based on the practice of the teachings instead? You own your beliefs. If you believed in the tenets of the church when you converted, you probably still do. Maybe it's the practices you disagree with, or some of the leaders or attitudes of the people in your congregation. It is okay to not follow blindly with any one particular organizational structure created by man, even in the best intentions. Religious practice is participatory. Maybe you feel like an outsider, in that you converted and are worried that people think you do not have the true beliefs that they do. If you own your beliefs, own them. Don't let the every day affairs or other people's spiritual struggles interfere with your own faith and practice of that faith. It sounds like your H needs to rely a little bit less on the rules of the church and more on his own behavior and input in your marriage and family life. But you didn't give full information so it's difficult to say. It doesn't sound right that he would be pressuring you in a matter of faith if faith is so important to him that is not how I would expect someone to go about it.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Well, call me delusional, as one poster stated, but I am religious, yet struggled with my wife's particular denomination. I was one of those who studied all religions, then after a year of philosophy under the Socratic way, began to see that I really agreed with his concept of deity. 

If it helps, a denomination or belief that teaches a believing spouse to treat the one who does not believe in any way other than love, is going against the central tenet of marriage.  I'd encourage you to help him understand that you will respect and love him, and that you only ask the same from him.

In my case, the area where my wife and I were able to finally reach peace was due, in part, to my belief that true religion should be about changing the lives of those around us. She began to see that her denomination, which also shunned people like me, did very little community outreach in regards to helping the poor, feeding people, and voluunteering in the lives of people who were hurting. This became our new focus together.

I'd encourage you to focus on those qualities that brought you to the religion. Often, it is a desire to help others. Show your husband that you are committed to the way that gives you meaning. By showing him that your decision was serious, and yet did not mean that you are abandoning the core beliefs regarding good and evil, then he should be able to focus on the areas you share. If he can't love you (with the hope that you'll grow with him), then it tells you alot about his character. I think your real concern should be about his character, and willingness to love you.


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## motherof4 (Jul 3, 2011)

I Thanks everyone for the comments.

I do believe in the values of the Mormon Church, I just have a hard time with the doctrine. I was drawn into the church with the idea of great values to raise my children with, the closeness I saw of families, the respect I had for the other members and my boyfriend, now husband was Mormon. 

Mormonism is a lifestyle and my husband has a very strong testimony of the church. I am fine going to church and some days if the kids allow me to listen I even feel uplifted. I am willing to continue to attend; I just don't want to follow all their counsels’. 

My husband wants what they teach as a "eternal family" and so do I. He wants me to follow everything the church teaches and I don't know if I believe that the church is the only true church. I cause him a lot of heart ache and feel bad about it. 

I have values regardless of my belief in the Mormon religion and want to be a good person!


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Parrothead said:


> What religion is he? If he is in one of those mind control cults, both of you need to get out of there.
> 
> As a Christian, though, I don't think anything that would separate a husband and wife is of God, so get that out of your head. There has to be a third way you can work out between the two of you.


The problem with this advice is that one person's "mind control cult" is another's "true religion" and vice versa.

And, OP, the basic problem that you are encountering is one of the myriad of reasons that I take issue with _any_ organized religion. I will assume that, if we remove religion from the equation, you husband loves you...your personality, the chemistry the two of you share, common interests, differences that complement one another, and so on. The one sticking point is which "deity fan club" he belongs to, and can't fathom spending his life with someone who belongs to a different "fan club" (or no "fan club" at all, for that matter).

I would strongly suggest talking with him about this issue. If he is willing to throw away a good marriage with many plusses over that single issue, harsh as it may sound, perhaps it's not that big a loss.

A solid marriage of mixed faiths can most certainly work. My wife, always a bit more spiritual than ol' atheist me, has become more spiritual as she works to overcome some issues she is dealing with, bu remains non-denominational, taking in the overall message, but not particularly subscribing to the specific beliefs of the church she has begun attending (she has a good friend who attends there), or any denomination, for that matter.

Faith can be a wonderful thing...give one positive focus and spiritual support. Religion, on the other hand, as you're finding, can be needlessly and hurtfully divisive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

Betsyfjones read my post to Coffeetime under Enchanted April, movie talk about the movie Bonneville. I had posted that right before reading your post here this morning. LDS requires spiritual discernment and that is an individual thing. In every organization there are freeloaders and people who are assigned privilege rather than earning it. I have issues with the tithing system and also demands placed upon new members, who can be taken advantage of. Here is a workaround, you can volunteer to go with someone to minister to ladies who can't get to services. I think you will find things different in this ministry and perhaps find a different spiritual path. If you do not get your own calling you will have one assigned to you and really, you don't want to put that kind of power in anyone's hands. You must draw the line at doing things that protect you and your family life. You MUST have limits or this church membership will swallow you whole.


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## notaname (Feb 4, 2011)

Betsy, I totally know where you are coming from. I am in a very similar position except I know that I cannot and will not fake it. I was born in the church, though, so for me it may be a little different as my parents and sibs are also Mormon.

It is really, really hard. PM me if you'd like to talk about it in more detail. I've been on this road for a couple years now.


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## BigToe (Jun 2, 2011)

A trip to the mormon museum in Salt Lake City should convince you one way or another if mormonism is the one true church. Regardless of what the church is today, personally I was unable to take the religion seriously since in my opinion it was started by a bunch of horny old men who wanted multiple wives for sexual purposes.

You are correct that it is a lifestyle and I think you were pretty foolish to commit to such a thing without checking into it more before you got married. Religious people take their faith very seriously and it was wrong of you to make such a lighthearted decision.

You say you didn't convert to marry him, but isn't it true that most mormons only marry mormons (or require the partner to convert). If true, that would indicate that he wasn't going to marry you unless you converted which probably plays into this scenario more than you are willing to admit.

Your problem is not going to be going to church since anyone can "fake" that and put up with attending church once a week (you even say it uplifts you occasionally). You have a bigger problem which is the lifestyle mormons require which will be much harder for you to fake. You owe it to your husband to come clean if you haven't already and fess up that you've had enough. Otherwise, you've got a LOOOOOONG marriage ahead of you and I don't mean that in the traditional sense.

You've already "checked out" of the religion so make sure you tell him the detail of your current state. It will be up to him to decide if his religion is more important than you are.


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## CoffeeTime (Jul 3, 2011)

BigToe said:


> You are correct that it is a lifestyle and I think you were pretty foolish to commit to such a thing without checking into it more before you got married. Religious people take their faith very seriously and it was wrong of you to make such a lighthearted decision.


I think we have to be careful with attribution bias. None of us can play God and make a judgement on the intentions or motivations of another. None of us know exactly what someone's internal struggle or dialog was while processing important decisions they have to make or have made. 

Having said that, we are all fallible. All of us have the right to examine our lives and decisions based on new information and experiences. This situation is not based on a woman who questions her commitment to her husband in marriage, it is based on a promise to follow a specific spiritual path in a specific religious denomination. Those types of promises are unrealistic to make and unrealistic to demand for someone else. The premise of this demand from one human being to another affords no authentic relationship to a deity, rather it promotes accountability to other men or religious structures. 

Even if two devout people are committed at one time to a specific theology or belief, that is no guarantee they will be for life. We can only be responsible for ourselves (as adults) to follow our own spiritual convictions.


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## Parrothead (Jul 4, 2011)

Grayson said:


> The problem with this advice is that one person's "mind control cult" is another's "true religion" and vice versa.


No, sir, it's not. There are known and documented cults in the USA and other countries. Their practices are abusive and controlling, to the point where some people have to go through therapy and de-programming.

Tell me, do you think the Branch Davidians were just "another man's religion"? How about the Heaven's Gate cult? Jim Jones? 

No sir, cults can be dangerous to the body as well as the psyche.


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## CoffeeTime (Jul 3, 2011)

Parrothead said:


> No, sir, it's not. There are known and documented cults in the USA and other countries. Their practices are abusive and controlling, to the point where some people have to go through therapy and de-programming.



I totally agree with this statement. While I understand what Grayson is saying about people unwittingly attributing a cult status to a different religion just because they disagree with it (people do that a lot), true cults have certain factors that remain exclusive in group control and dynamics.


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## Parrothead (Jul 4, 2011)

CoffeeTime said:


> I totally agree with this statement. While I understand what Grayson is saying about people unwittingly attributing a cult status to a different religion just because they disagree with it (people do that a lot), true cults have certain factors that remain exclusive in group control and dynamics.


Thank you for that. Dismissing the cult phenomenon does the people involved with them a disservice.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Parrothead said:


> No, sir, it's not. There are known and documented cults in the USA and other countries. Their practices are abusive and controlling, to the point where some people have to go through therapy and de-programming.


The same can be said of some who leave accepted, mainstream religions.



> Tell me, do you think the Branch Davidians were just "another man's religion"? How about the Heaven's Gate cult? Jim Jones?


To the followers of those sects...yes.



> No sir, cults can be dangerous to the body as well as the psyche.


I'm not saying they can't be dangerous in such a manner. In a great many cases, though, I would say that the biggest difference between a "cult" and a "religion" is PR and public acceptance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Parrothead (Jul 4, 2011)

Grayson said:


> The same can be said of some who leave accepted, mainstream religions.


You could say that, but it wouldn't be true. 



> I'm not saying they can't be dangerous in such a manner. In a great many cases, though, I would say that the biggest difference between a "cult" and a "religion" is PR and public acceptance.


And dead bodies and abused women and children...

Mrs. Parrothead lived in the same small town where a cult killed a family of five and buried them in a barn.

Someone I know had his son kidnapped by his wife, a cult member. He never saw him again. 

This is not anecdotal - if I told you the names and places you would be able to find out who they were. And these people were close to us, they are not strangers.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

CoffeeTime said:


> I totally agree with this statement. While I understand what Grayson is saying about people unwittingly attributing a cult status to a different religion just because they disagree with it (people do that a lot), true cults have certain factors that remain exclusive in group control and dynamics.


Oh, I don't think it's unwitting at all. Most mainstream religions will tell you that, with hundreds of religions (and varying denominations within them) on the planet, *theirs* is the *only* one that got it right...the rest are all wrong...poor deluded fools who will be in for a rude surprise when they go to meet their maker. And, the methods of group control and dynamics don't vary too terribly much between "cults" and "religions." Seems that it's usually more a matter of difference of scale and degree of application as opposed to a difference of method. All religions are as much about keeping and controlling their followers as any "cult" is. Some just don't take it as far as others do and cross the line into endangering their followers' lives.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

But what about Betsy?
I don't think this discussion about cults is very helpful.
Nobody has even told her to tell her husband to go pray about it.
Maybe HE isn't doing the things that HE needs to do given HIS beliefs in the church. Is he delivering everything an LDS marriage promises to a woman? Or is she stuck with laying in bulk storage and 100% responsibility for planning family home evenings while he's at deacon meetings, etc.?
LDS men are not saints. They're just as infallible as everyone else. Maybe it's not the church, maybe it's the H and THEIR JOINT PARTICIPATION in the church's family life that the church promotes.
Maybe she's getting a bum deal not from the church but from her H. Why latch onto the whole cult thing? I know people who are LDS and have fantastic marriages, also I have seen them as bad as any other religion or agnostic, ending in divorce, issues with alcoholism, etc.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Parrothead said:


> You could say that, but it wouldn't be true.


I beg to differ. Many a person leaving an accepted, mainstream religion must undergo years of therapy and similar "deprogramming" to break away from the dogma dried into them while a follower of that religion.



> And dead bodies and abused women and children...


Yes, it's a good thing that, say, Christianity *never* killed or abused women or children...*never* waged war in the name of converting unbelievers.



> Mrs. Parrothead lived in the same small town where a cult killed a family of five and buried them in a barn.
> 
> Someone I know had his son kidnapped by his wife, a cult member. He never saw him again.
> 
> This is not anecdotal - if I told you the names and places you would be able to find out who they were. And these people were close to us, they are not strangers.


I don't doubt you. Those are horrible, horrible things to happen.

Thankfully, modern accepted mainstream religions would never advocate hate against those that are different from themselves. Or make it a standard practice to cover up the religion's officers molesting children.

Or put someone in a position to think she's a bad wife for not ardently following the same religion as her husband.

So please...by all means...keep telling me how harmless mainstream religion is compared to the evil of cults and how there's a world of difference between them.

I stand by my belief that faith can be a powerfully positive force in one's life, while religion, by contrast, is destructive and divisive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## grizabella (May 8, 2011)

Maybe she just doesn't want to be a part of it. It's not her cup of tea, her ideal expression of her faith. Why should this be a make or break area of her marriage? Shouldn't she be free to find her own way?


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

You know what made me decide I wanted a divorce for sure?
My atheist husband said to me that a higher power had put us together for a purpose and that we should stay together to find out what the purpose was. He has knowledge of my faith but very few details as anything he has found out about me has been used to knock me down so I held this close to my heart...but to this point he'd never pulled that card. When he said that, I knew it was time to walk. I would suggest the same to anyone whose spouse used religion and God's intent as a reason to stay in a marriage that fell short due to human infallibility or choice. You don't use God as an excuse for your own shortcomings, or to pick up the slack.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> But what about Betsy?
> I don't think this discussion about cults is very helpful.
> Nobody has even told her to tell her husband to go pray about it.
> Maybe HE isn't doing the things that HE needs to do given HIS beliefs in the church. Is he delivering everything an LDS marriage promises to a woman? Or is she stuck with laying in bulk storage and 100% responsibility for planning family home evenings while he's at deacon meetings, etc.?
> ...


I fully agree with your closing statement here, and we're somewhat on the same page, jus looking at it from different angles. I got caught up in seeing yet another instance of religion tearing apart something it claims to hold as important. Sorry about that. I tend to get carried away when I see aspects of organized religion in play that helped to turn me off towards them in the first place.

I'd suggest much of what you did, but from the other direction. As I touched upon earlier, I'd suggest that they, at least for the sake of discussion, remove religion from the table...to sit down and evaluate what is (and, being brutally honest, isn't) working in the marriage. If the relationship (minus the religious aspect) is healthy, then examine the elephant in the room and see how it applies to the marriage...what is to be expected of both parties, and - if a different dynamic of faith is called for - can both live with that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Parrothead (Jul 4, 2011)

> I stand by my belief that faith can be a powerfully positive force in one's life, while religion, by contrast, is destructive and divisive.


And I say that faith and spirituality come from the practicing of religion. But we have gone far enough afield. If you want to start another thread I will debate this with you.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

This isn't about discussing what religion is or isn't with regards to a cult, this is about helping a woman find her way in a marriage that she feels somewhat alone in. 
Mormon is a difficult religion to convert to. I am curious what religion you were prior to marrying your husband? You mention that you have a hard time thinking Mormon is THE religion and I think that is the crux of your struggle. It isn't the religion but one of many. Mormons however, do not believe this. Is this your struggle? That your prior beliefs are being eradicated?


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

grizabella said:


> Maybe she just doesn't want to be a part of it. It's not her cup of tea, her ideal expression of her faith. Why should this be a make or break area of her marriage? Shouldn't she be free to find her own way?


Exactly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

motherof4 said:


> I Thanks everyone for the comments.
> 
> I do believe in the values of the Mormon Church, I just have a hard time with the doctrine. I was drawn into the church with the idea of great values to raise my children with, the closeness I saw of families, the respect I had for the other members and my boyfriend, now husband was Mormon.
> 
> ...


A truly positive way to deal with this, in my opinion. For several years, my brother lived in an area that was heavily populated by that church, so I understand that you are talking about so many implicit pressures, well beyond the obvious.

Remember that you ultimately follow the same God, who has promised to listen and walk with you when you cling to your belief in him. When all else seems confusing, just go with what you know to be right: helping those who have nobody to help them, and following the plan that you describe, which seems right to you. Assure him that you respect his beliefs, and ask for his support of yours, under the assumption that you'll keep an open mind to his beliefs. It just seems so likely that you'll shine, compared to others who just stick to dogma, and he'll see this difference.

I'm wishing for the best for you.


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## Parrothead (Jul 4, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> This isn't about discussing what religion is or isn't with regards to a cult, this is about helping a woman find her way in a marriage that she feels somewhat alone in.


Which is exactly the point I was trying to address until the atheists started muddying the water with arguments about organized religion vs. disorganized religion. 

Contrary to what they may think, St. Paul tells us to love your wife as Christ loves the church, which is why no one gets between Mrs. Parrothead and I INCLUDING the church. I wish I had a nickel for every person I have seen who thinks they are serving God as they neglect their spouse by hanging out at church, and what I mean by that is church done right should not interfere with her marriage. . 

I agree with Grizabella. She should find her own way.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> But what about Betsy?
> I don't think this discussion about cults is very helpful.
> Nobody has even told her to tell her husband to go pray about it.
> Maybe HE isn't doing the things that HE needs to do given HIS beliefs in the church. Is he delivering everything an LDS marriage promises to a woman? Or is she stuck with laying in bulk storage and 100% responsibility for planning family home evenings while he's at deacon meetings, etc.?
> ...


I think Betsy is in a tough situation. 

I had experienced something similar, but then not the same. 

Religious people who believe in their religions strongly are almost brainwashed by that religion, in their mind, they do everything the religion says, it also seems like that they don't have their own mind. Although they are still struggling with a lot of human weaknesses. 

My husband was a Jehovah's witness. My good luck is that my husband himself doesn't believe 100% of the doctrines they teach. He didn't force me to convert to their religion, but I foolishly got involved with their religion by my own will( wanted to be accepted by his social group). Then I almost crashed before I left. I was pretending to be someone I wasn't! I liked the practical part they teach, they do teach great things about relationships. But then they expect you to go out to preach, they tell you that their religion is the only true religion, they have the feeling that they are better than people in general. I call this ]religion haughtiness[/. I couldn't say anything because they couldn't accept anything different. I think they are like communists. You just do what I say, don't disagree with me. If you disagree with me, then you are rebellious, I am going to shun you out, you are bad association. My husband didn't want to go out preaching, he keeps a goatee, and these are viewed bad association and bad influence, he was viewed rebellious. Others stay away from him automatically, I was pretty confused. In my opinion, my husband is a wonderful man, faithful, responsible, considerate, affectionate, he teaches by his conduct. 

Anyway, I had to pretend to be somebody I wasn't. I had to smile when they say foolish things in front of me. It was a torture for me. 

Finally my husband decided that this religion is not good for me to be around, he and I both left this religion. Now my life is much more peaceful. But I do have to agree that they also teach a lot of good and practical thing. Mormons are similar, I believe they teach a lot of good and practical things too. 

Now I am studying Buddhism at home to help my spirituality. I think it is a good idea to stay away from those organized big religions, people there will just try to influence you to the final stage you are brain washed and you are like a puppy in their hands.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

What I find very contradictory is they are teaching you that you have to humble, but then they tell you that they are the only true religion, they are better than people who don't believe in their religion. 

How hypocritical this is!


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## motherof4 (Jul 3, 2011)

This was my first Thread and I appreciate all the comments!!

My husband and I have had many talks/arguments over this subject! I told him that I am sorry that I don't have a testimony of The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints. Him having such a strong belief he is very passionate about what is best for our family. He really is only pushy and upset because he loves us and is fearful that he won't get all that is promised for him and his family. I can put myself in his shoes and feel bad for him. He feels by me not living my life according to the Church that I am choosing my selfish ways over him and the kids. I am torn if I am being selfish or not? I really do wish I did believe it would make everything so much easier....

I wasn't raised in any religion, just went to church with friends every once in a while. My choice in religion has caused a lot of problems with my parents and friends which I hold resentment for. My parents became anti-Mormon after I joined the church. 

I just love my kids soooooo much and don't want to confuse them! 

How can something that is supposed to be so positive in my life cause so much turmoil? My husband is trying to be patient with me in hoping that I will come around... who knows maybe I will??? He originally told me if I didn't stay Mormon that it was a deal breaker for our Marriage. That was very hurtful, I felt I was very replaceable but he needed me to reach the highest glory of heaven!

Its hard for me to even pray at all, I feel so stubborn.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

motherof4 said:


> This was my first Thread and I appreciate all the comments!!
> 
> My husband and I have had many talks/arguments over this subject! I told him that I am sorry that I don't have a testimony of The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints. Him having such a strong belief he is very passionate about what is best for our family. He really is only pushy and upset because he loves us and is fearful that he won't get all that is promised for him and his family. I can put myself in his shoes and feel bad for him. He feels by me not living my life according to the Church that I am choosing my selfish ways over him and the kids. I am torn if I am being selfish or not? I really do wish I did believe it would make everything so much easier....
> 
> ...


I can really understand your feeling. 

A religion is suppose to bring us peace, but here it brings us stress. So you can tell it is not healthy! 

But be honest with you, they are not going to change, and your husband is not going to change. 

The only one who can change is you. You change the way you look at things, then you will feel better. 

I can't pray either, no matter how hard I try. We don't believe in God, we don't believe in holy spirit. But we can think! 

I have to point out, if you pretend that you believe in their religion, you are living in a lie. And this lie is torturing you. But the funny thing is, they want you to live in a lie, they would rather you lie than tell them the truth.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

You are making an excuse for him being pushy.
Don't do that.
Ask to go out and do some home visits and see how other Mormon husbands might treat their wives differently. 
Also so what if you converted. It doesn't make a person a better or more valid Mormon or whatever religion just because they were born into it. 
I can tell you do not want to choose between your husband & family and being LDS. But don't let being LDS be a reason why you don't hold your husband accountable for his pushiness. Not all Mormon husbands deserve what they don't rightfully earn, and if he's being pushy and all that he does need to be worried. It's not because of you he won't get all that's been promised him, it will be because of him. Argh.

Go home visiting. Also you might want to actively seek out women on your own who were married and left the church and their marriages. They will have the insight you need. Don't worry about being misled, just listen to what they have to say and let them listen to you. Take their opinion and just hold onto it. 

If you're not sure about something be more curious about it. Go a little bit more in depth to the pros and to the cons. Sooner or later with this approach the scale will tip decisively. Or something else entirely unexpected will happen to change the entire scenario for you.


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## notaname (Feb 4, 2011)

Mother, take things slow. That is the best advice I can give. However, slow doesn't mean you have to not move at all. I have made changes to my behavior only when it becomes either too painful to stay the same or comfortable to make the change. Some changes I have made even though it was painful...but would be more painful not to make the change.

I have been told several hurtful things by my family as well. We just have to remember that they are afraid and they love us in their way. My husband told me he didn't know how to be married to me anymore. He and his sister decided the devil was using me to bring him down. My mother told me I wasn't the daughter she knew. I've been told I am damaged, etc. It sucks hard. Stay strong!!!

Remember that you have the right to grow and change. My husband believes I have betrayed our marriage covenants by disbelieving. It sounds like yours has similar thinking. Well, we got married not knowing what we would be promising anyway! How is that right or fair? When we have more information we have the right to re-evaluate our position.

My other piece of advice is to not make any promises about always going to church or raising the kids fully in the church. You do not really know how you will feel a year from now. Assure your husband that you love him and your family and want to be with him and your children if that is true. Tell him the common things you still believe--like being honest and stuff like that.

Your children will likely benefit from having a parent who is less dogmatic and fundamentalist in their thinking. Kids are smarter than you think. There are ways you can start to instill in them that religion is manmade and everyone has their own personal ways of worship and that it is okay to not be LDS.

I know how impossible this whole situation seems and how painful it is. You are not alone. There are lots and lots of us. Plenty of marriages don't make it, but some do. The ones that do seem to have mutual respect and good communication.


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## motherof4 (Jul 3, 2011)

It scares me to do anything right now because I don't want to be persuaded either way! I will take it slow, I don't want mess up again. I want to be sure this time. I was 19 years old when I joined the church and 20 when I got married, young and vulnerable! The whole situation is very painful. Do I do what is best for my whole family or be selfish and do what I want to do. I wish the church wasn't so strict and I can attend and still "live a little. Thanks for all the comments..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

motherof4 said:


> How can something that is supposed to be so positive in my life cause so much turmoil? My husband is trying to be patient with me in hoping that I will come around... who knows maybe I will??? He originally told me if I didn't stay Mormon that it was a deal breaker for our Marriage. That was very hurtful, I felt I was very replaceable but he needed me to reach the highest glory of heaven!


There is alot said here. Your husband feels your rebellion and disbelief will keep YOU , his wife, from reaching "*the highest glory in Heaven *"--and this directly affects him ---as husbands & wives are married in heaven -under the Mormon belief. Article on Mormon Celestial Marriage 


Mormon Beliefs about Prophecy, Heaven, and Celestial Marriage (Rebuttal on such beliefs) ....I noticed it says this here, how does your husband feel about this fact , is this true?




> It is noteworthy that the teaching that reveals the foundation for celestial marriage {exaltation} is not to be found in the Book of Mormon, the "most correct" of any book on earth.{37} Therefore, it seems that the motivation for entering into celestial marriage is not based on fact but on the possibility of being a god or a goddess.




Let's face it, your husband is a majorly devout believer in THIS (this is what I term a "Fundamentalist" no matter the religion -they see ALL in black & white, no gray, I am right, you are wrong, you need to conform, end of discussion), he made it clear before you married this was a requirement to join the church & abide. But really you was not fully aware of what type of beliefs you were agreeing too possibly -says in that article


> Those in the church have in many cases been "fellowshipped"; that is, they have been catered to for the specific reason of gaining their membership in the church. Often these members have not clearly discerned the doctrine of the church


Too bad you did not know MORE about the ridgidness at that time -but I know many Mormons are not like your husband, as I have GOOD close friends since HIgh school, they have been Mormons their whole lives - we are able to openly discuss My beliefs, theirs, anything - they are much more accepting, even questioning thier own doctrines at times, they feel it is not right that they did not get married at the Temple so they get a BUM deal in heaven. But they still remain Mormons, they love the people and much of the moral lifestyle. And I find them great people too. 

The wife is in fact looking into her Indian ancesters & their beliefs right now, the husband is fine with this! They are pretty open, I know they put each other BEFORE their beliefs and their marraige has went through some hardships ---and I can tell you what KEPT THEM TOGETHER and strong was their love & commitment to EACH OTHER--over the church! Even disagreeing with the church at times. 

IT is monumentality difficult to be married to a man or woman who will put their church 1st if you have a divide that is just over DOCTRINE (which in reality, how does this even affect our everyday dealings in life??)..... if you still treat others around you with love, respect, you train your children to live a peaceable life, you take care of your husbands needs, be a good wife, MOther, daughter, help the poor , make this world a better place, etc. 

Heck , I agree with all of that and I am NOT a believer in any organized religion. I used to be---and caused my own husband a little grief when in the midst of it, luckily not too much, as I never put my faith "before him". Looking back, I am glad I never got him saved or I might be fighting with him today! (crazy how we can change) 

And I agree, you can't hide it, it will continue to resurface again & again & again, you likely will grow much resentment if you try to fake your way through marraige, others will pick up on it also, including the children.


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## BigToe (Jun 2, 2011)

CoffeeTime said:


> I think we have to be careful with attribution bias. None of us can play God and make a judgement on the intentions or motivations of another. None of us know exactly what someone's internal struggle or dialog was while processing important decisions they have to make or have made.


I don't think amateur psychological analysis helps much either. Nothing was said about her intentions or motivations. It is obvious that her intention was to marry the man and her motivation was to have a happy marriage. The issue is that she did not make a decision to convert based upon an in-depth analysis of what the church required from its members. As noted in subsequent posts, the original poster only saw the "surface" of the religion by her casual interaction with other existing members and their families.



CoffeeTime said:


> Having said that, we are all fallible. All of us have the right to examine our lives and decisions based on new information and experiences. This situation is not based on a woman who questions her commitment to her husband in marriage, it is based on a promise to follow a specific spiritual path in a specific religious denomination.


That is incorrect. Her problem is based upon her promise to FOLLOW her husband in his religion as a condition of marriage. Read her original post where she says she KNOWS he would not have married her if she hadn't converted. She made a promise to him which has as much weight as her promise to "forsake all others" in the marriage. Your logic suggesting we have the right to reexamine our lives based on new information and experience is not universally applicable and can be used as an excuse to fall short of commitment and promises. Too many people use that logic to justify their cheating.

We aren't talking about promises to clean the house everyday or cook meatloaf every Thursday for supper. This is a commitment to Church and God which very religious people take VERY seriously. Her husband wanted to marry a Morman and had every right to make THAT decision in his own life. He trusted this woman who promised to convert and participate in that lifestyle. I'm not saying she shouldn't get out of it if it makes her that unhappy, I'm merely saying SHE owns the problem and responsibility for the situation because of her promise as part of their agreement to get married. 



CoffeeTime said:


> Even if two devout people are committed at one time to a specific theology or belief, that is no guarantee they will be for life. We can only be responsible for ourselves (as adults) to follow our own spiritual convictions.


That is not the issue here. Her question is whether she should "fake" being committed to the Morman religion because of her fear that the kids will be confused if she doesn't.


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## BigToe (Jun 2, 2011)

motherof4 said:


> My husband and I have had many talks/arguments over this subject! I told him that I am sorry that I don't have a testimony of The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints. Him having such a strong belief he is very passionate about what is best for our family. He really is only pushy and upset because he loves us and is fearful that he won't get all that is promised for him and his family. I can put myself in his shoes and feel bad for him.


I can understand your husbands frustration. The fact that you were raised without religion likely makes him feel that you should trust him to lead you. While I am critical of you not researching the issue more before promising your husband to participate in the Mormon religion, I have to say I sincerely disagree with foundation of the Mormon church and completely understand your feelings regarding it.



motherof4 said:


> He feels by me not living my life according to the Church that I am choosing my selfish ways over him and the kids. I am torn if I am being selfish or not? I really do wish I did believe it would make everything so much easier....


I do not think you are being selfish and in fact would say that he is the one being selfish by insisting you remain in the church. However, understand that he is likely going to take a lot of "heat" from his family and the church if you "stray".



motherof4 said:


> I just love my kids soooooo much and don't want to confuse them!


I think this is an irrational concern. There are thousands of children who have grown up functional and healthy with parents of different faiths. If anything, at some point when they are old enough to understand, you would be bringing some religious diversity to the household which I think would be good. Very young children wouldn't "get" the message. Perhaps a good compromise for YOU if your children are young, would be to continue with the Mormon religion until the kids are old enough to understand concepts of religious diversity and then slowly go your own way.


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## CoffeeTime (Jul 3, 2011)

BigToe,

I heard you, we disagree, nothing more to add~


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## CoffeeTime (Jul 3, 2011)

motherof4 said:


> Its hard for me to even pray at all, I feel so stubborn.


Religion has been one of the hardest struggles for me in my life. Even at the point of cognitive dissonance in the past. 

I had heard it said before and find comfort in these words if you believe in a deity - God is not threatened or surprised about what threatens or surprises us about ourselves or the world around us. 

Possibly, this journey is about the love and grace to be who you are, right where you are. Maybe letting some of the shame and guilt go for questioning/doubting a church doctrine will help move you further to find more answers in your life. This is not selfish, it is healing. You say you have to be sure this time, give yourself time then. Conflict is not a bad thing, in fact there is so much we learn within it. 

Be gentler with yourself, working through any conflict is hard but it does not have to be self condemning. Even acknowledging it within ourselves and addressing it, takes courage and strength, though it will not feel like that. I seriously give you much credit for living a more authentic life.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

motherof4 said:


> It scares me to do anything right now because I don't want to be persuaded either way! I will take it slow, I don't want mess up again. I want to be sure this time. I was 19 years old when I joined the church and 20 when I got married, young and vulnerable! The whole situation is very painful. Do I do what is best for my whole family or be selfish and do what I want to do. I wish the church wasn't so strict and I can attend and still "live a little. Thanks for all the comments..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know its probably not possible, but it really seems like your husband needs to see a view of his church from the outside, perhaps in an area where the LDS faith is rare. I'm only suggesting that it has become his world, so he doesn't even see the peculiarities.

If you study the history of the religion, and the beliefs before that, and even the accusations against the early LDS church, and he cannot see it in its real context, then only a gradual acceptance will likely come as a result of the committment to your own beliefs.

I certainly understand how easy it would be to stubbornly dig in your heels and turn away completely from even your own beliefs, but I hope you can first see this as a journey to your own inner peace, and spiritual wisdom, and then trust that you'll have a better understanding of what to do about the marriage.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

In light of your other thread, I just have to ask...how does your EA and "consensual rape" factor into this division that's caused by religion?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## motherof4 (Jul 3, 2011)

I was waiting for someone to cross reference the two. I have struggled with the Mormon religion for many years. I think the disconnect I have felt with my husband made me vulnerable to a EA.


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