# BPD wife



## dogman

Ok..so I'm finally admitting that my wife is displaying some of the traits of a Borderline personality disorder.
We've been married for 22+ years and I'm not dense, I just always believed she was just sensitive but it's become too obvious.
Some things that she consistently does..

When an event is happening she will paint me or whoever is the focus, as evil and heartless.

She will change personality significantly.

She can't see any good things to redeem the situation

She is totally irrational.

She is always hypersensitive to criticism

She is obsessive n her thoughts and seems to have no ability to control where they go

She will become violent at times

She will say things that she has to take back...ALOT

During "events" she is impossible to reason with.

Things that happened many years ago will appear to be happening now, in her mind. I call this timeline issues.


I have always tried to figure out a pattern to this but it's led me to just always be waiting for the other shoe to drop. Walking on eggshells is the best way to describe it. Im always waiting for the mood shift and then im the bad guy again.

Who has experienced this and how can I alter my situation for the better?


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## ThreeStrikes

Go here:

Borderline Personality Disorder - Support group for families and relationship partners

the forum there will be helpful


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## dogman

ThreeStrikes said:


> Go here:
> 
> Borderline Personality Disorder - Support group for families and relationship partners
> 
> the forum there will be helpful



Thanks, ill check it out.


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## CallaLily

dogman said:


> how can I alter my situation for the better?


I'm not sure what you mean by alter the situation, unless you are meaning deal with it? 

I would suggest that you ask her to seek out some therapy or get her to go to MC with you and bring it up there. You could try IC for yourself and maybe a therapist can help you with some things. Bottom line, if in fact she was diagnosed with that, you will eventually either need to accept it and learn ways to live with it, or you will need to make a choice on what you will and will not tolerate in your life.


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## dogman

CallaLily said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by alter the situation, unless you are meaning deal with it?
> 
> I would suggest that you ask her to seek out some therapy or get her to go to MC with you and bring it up there. You could try IC for yourself and maybe a therapist can help you with some things. Bottom line, if in fact she was diagnosed with that, you will eventually either need to accept it and learn ways to live with it, or you will need to make a choice on what you will and will not tolerate in your life.


Thanks for the response.

This is what makes me hesitate to post about this issue. 

You are right...as far as I know this is not something that can be medicated and fixed. This is something that the only way to have improvement is to get them to admit the problem and make certain adjustments in their own thinking and reaction to that thinking.
My problem is that she is in complete denial of her own actions even to the point of denying things she has said. And she's no liar. She truly doesn't see her part of the problem

This brings it to your point. Get her help or "make a choice of what I will tolerate" which translates to ending the relationship.

I was hoping for something else but I realize that might not exist.


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## Uptown

dogman said:


> Ok..so I'm finally admitting that my wife is displaying some of the traits of a Borderline personality disorder.


Dog, I'm sorry to hear that. I knew, based on a comment you made last December in BadGuy's thread, that you've been suspecting it since then.


> When an event is happening she will paint me or whoever is the focus, as evil and heartless.....She can't see any good things to redeem the situation.


As you know by now, that's called "black-white thinking," wherein everyone is categorized as "all good" or "all bad" -- and will be recategorized within a few seconds (from one polar extreme to the other) based solely on a minor action or trivial comment.


> She will say things that she has to take back...A LOT.


Well, that's an understatement. In another thread, you stated _"She would tell me to just leave, get out. She even wished I would just die in my sleep"_ (Your 9/30/12 post). This type of hateful speech is typical of what a BPDer will say while "splitting you black." During those times, a BPDer will be completely out of touch with her good feelings toward you. This occurs because BPDers have such a fractured, fragile sense of self that they cannot tolerate experiencing strong mixed feelings, ambiguities, uncertainties, or other grey areas in interpersonal relationships.


> She will change personality significantly.


It is common for folks living with a BPDer to complain that it feels like they are living with a person who is half way to having Dissociative Identity Disorder (what used to be called "Multiple Personality Disorder). BPD is not the same thing as DID but BPDers do tend to dissociate far more than healthy people do.


> She is totally irrational.


That is pretty much true for all of us when we experience intense feelings. This is why, by the time we are in high school, we all realize that our judgment goes out the window whenever we are very angry or infatuation. And this is why, when we are angry, we try to keep our mouths shut until we have time to cool down. And this is why we try to wait at least a year before buying the ring.

What sets BPDers apart, then, is the frequency and intensity with which irrational periods occur. Because they cannot manage their emotions well, they experience intense feelings far more frequently. And because they have the emotional development of a four year old, they have never learned how to do self soothing and distraction to calm themselves down.


> She is always hypersensitive to criticism.


If she has strong BPD traits, she is so filled with self loathing and shame that the last thing she wants to hear is one more thing to add to the long list of things she hates about herself.


> She will become violent at times.


Not all violent people have BPD. Physical violence nonetheless is strongly associated with having strong BPD traits. It can be dangerous living with a person who has the emotional development of a four year old -- combined with the cunning and body strength of a full grown adult.


> During "events" she is impossible to reason with.


If she has strong BPD traits, you will find that she also is "impossible to reason with" even when no "events" are occurring. BPDers carry such enormous anger and shame deep inside that you don't have to do a thing to CREATE the anger. Rather, you only have to do or say some trivial thing to TRIGGER the anger that is already there. Significantly, that anger can be triggered in just a few seconds anytime you try to bring up a sensitive issue -- and, as you likely know, nearly every issue requiring compromise or negotiation is sensitive. This means, then, that it is impossible to have a calm, rational discussion with a BPDer -- even when you find her in a happy, calm mood. That mood can instantly change because a BPDer is always just a few seconds away from releasing her rage -- if you trigger her.


> Things that happened many years ago will appear to be happening now, in her mind. I call this timeline issues.


BPDers have a fragile, fractured sense of who they are. To the extent that a BPDer has a consistent self image, it is one of being "The Victim." They maintain a death grip on that false self image by continually seeking validation for it. Generally, this means you will be perceived as the "Perpetrator," the cause of every misfortune. Moreover, every imagined fault of yours will be added to a list that always gets longer and longer. And that list will be brought out every time you have an argument. 

This action of blowing up every disagreement into an attack on everything you ever did wrong is called "kitchen sinking" -- because they will complain about everything except the kitchen sink. As you said last September (9/5/12), your W had been beating you over the head with the same complaint. You said, _"For the last 5 years I've been taking a lot of abuse for how I acted so I kept quiet about my own doubts."_

My exW, for example, would regularly bring up things which she imagined had happened many years earlier. She would accuse me of making up a new lie every week. Yet, when I would ask for a specific example of a lie I had told her recently, she would talk about something I supposedly had said 10 or 15 years earlier -- as though it had occurred only last week.


> I have no contact with my entire family of origin anymore and certain longtime friends and it's a small price to save my 22year marriage. [From your 9/5/12 post.]


It is very common for BPDers (i.e., those having strong traits) to try to isolate their spouses away from their support group -- away from all close friends and family members. Because BPDers have a strong fear of abandonment, they are very controlling of the loved one's personal life -- and controlling is easier when he has no support group to tell him otherwise.

It therefore is interesting that you mention nothing about your W having a fear of abandonment. Indeed, the closest you come to saying anything about it is this comment about how she objected to your being close to old friends and family members.


> Walking on eggshells is the best way to describe it.


You should stop doing that. That enabling behavior is harmful to both of you. This is why the #1 best-selling BPD book (targeted to the abused spouses) is called _Stop Walking on Eggshells._


> Im always waiting for the mood shift and then im the bad guy again.


Such mood changes can be caused by a brain injury or brain tumor. But that is very rare. The common causes of mood changes include drug abuse and hormone changes (e.g., pregnancy, postpartum, and mid-life change). Yet, if you can rule those out -- and you seem to have done so -- the remaining common causes of serious mood changes are BPD and bipolar disorder (or both occurring together). Significantly, you are not describing the typical bipolar symptoms.


> I ended up on a suicide hotline 2 years ago because I was buying the things she said to me, it was like brain washing.


It is common for the abused partners of BPDers to feel like they are losing their minds. Indeed, of the 157 mental disorders listed in the APA's Diagnostic Manual, BPD is the one most notorious for making the abused spouses feel like they may be going crazy. It is very confusing and disorienting to live with someone who, in a few seconds, will flip from adoring you to devaluing you -- and then, a few hours or days later, will flip back again just as quickly.


> I met her and it was perfect. I asked her to marry me after 2 weeks, we were married in 6 months.


Dog, that "perfection" is to be expected if she has strong BPD traits. BPDers are very VERY easy to fall in love with. Because they lack a strong sense of self, they tend to mirror the person they are around at the time. When they become infatuated with a lover, they pull out all the stops and mirror him so perfectly that both parties will be absolutely convinced they've met their soul mates. Significantly, if your W has strong BPD traits, she likely was just as convinced as you that she had met the "perfect" mate. It is that infatuation that holds her two great fears (abandonment and engulfment) at bay throughout the courtship period. Right after the wedding, however, the infatuation fades and the fears return.


> How can I alter my situation for the better?


Dog, as an initial matter, I recommend that you NOT tell your W about your suspicions. If she is a BPDer, she almost certainly will project the accusation right back onto you, believing YOU to be the BPDer. Instead, simply encourage her to see a good psychologist (not a MC) and let the psych decide what to tell her.

Second, if you decide that her BPD traits are only at a moderate level and you want to remain with her, I suggest you learn the techniques for validating her. Because BPDers typically grew up in invalidating childhood environments, it is extremely important to them to be validated frequently. Granted, if she has strong BPD traits, such validation won't improve things much (if my experience is any guide). But, if she has only moderate BPD traits, validation may make a substantial improvement.

Toward that end, I suggest you get _Stop Walking on Eggshells_, the book I mentioned earlier. It discusses validation techniques and explains the importance of using them. (Or, if you ever decide to get a divorce instead, get _Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder_).

Third, I agree with 3Strikes' suggestion that you start participating (or at least lurking) at BPDfamily.com -- the largest and most active BPD forum I've found that is devoted fully to the spouses and family members of BPDers. This issue is such an enormous problem that that website is growing by 20 new members every day. The result is that it offers eight separate message boards on various BPD issues. The ones that likely will be most helpful to you are the "Staying" and "Leaving" board.

Fourth, while you are at BPDfamily.com, I suggest you read the excellent articles in their resources section. If you decide to remain married, the best article in that section for being supportive probably is Supporting a Loved-one with Borderline Personality Disorder -John G. Gunderson, M.D.. Like the book I mentioned above, this article discusses validation techniques and how to establish strong personal boundaries. I also recommend Kathy Batesel's article at Borderline Personality Disorder and Relationships.

Fifth, I suggest you read my brief overview of BPD traits in my post at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. Yet, based on what you said last December in BadGuy's thread, I suspect you've already read that post.

Sixth, I suggest you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you are dealing with. As I've explained in other threads, your best chance of getting a candid opinion regarding a possible BPD diagnosis is to NOT have the BPDer along. Therapists are loath to tell high functioning BPDers -- much less tell their spouses -- the name of the disorder.

Finally, Dog, please don't forget those of us on this TAM forum. We want to keep trying to answer your questions and providing emotional support as long as you find our shared experiences helpful. Moreover, by sharing your own experiences here, you likely are helping many other members and lurkers.


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## dogman

Uptown said:


> Dog, I'm sorry to hear that. I knew, based on a comment you made last December in BadGuy's thread, that you've been suspecting it since then.As you know by now, that's called "black-white thinking," wherein everyone is categorized as "all good" or "all bad" -- and will be recategorized within a few seconds (from one polar extreme to the other) based solely on a minor action or trivial comment.Well, that's an understatement. In another thread, you stated _"She would tell me to just leave, get out. She even wished I would just die in my sleep"_ (Your 9/30/12 post). This type of hateful speech is typical of what a BPDer will say while "splitting you black." During those times, a BPDer will be completely out of touch with her good feelings toward you. This occurs because BPDers have such a fractured, fragile sense of self that they cannot tolerate experiencing strong mixed feelings, ambiguities, uncertainties, or other grey areas in interpersonal relationships.It is common for folks living with a BPDer to complain that it feels like they are living with a person who is half way to having Dissociative Identity Disorder (what used to be called "Multiple Personality Disorder). BPD is not the same thing as DID but BPDers do tend to dissociate far more than healthy people do.That is pretty much true for all of us when we experience intense feelings. This is why, by the time we are in high school, we all realize that our judgment goes out the window whenever we are very angry or infatuation. And this is why, when we are angry, we try to keep our mouths shut until we have time to cool down. And this is why we try to wait at least a year before buying the ring.
> 
> What sets BPDers apart, then, is the frequency and intensity with which irrational periods occur. Because they cannot manage their emotions well, they experience intense feelings far more frequently. And because they have the emotional development of a four year old, they have never learned how to do self soothing and distraction to calm themselves down.If she has strong BPD traits, she is so filled with self loathing and shame that the last thing she wants to hear is one more thing to add to the long list of things she hates about herself.Not all violent people have BPD. Physical violence nonetheless is strongly associated with having strong BPD traits. It can be dangerous living with a person who has the emotional development of a four year old -- combined with the cunning and body strength of a full grown adult.
> If she has strong BPD traits, you will find that she also is "impossible to reason with" even when no "events" are occurring. BPDers carry such enormous anger and shame deep inside that you don't have to do a thing to CREATE the anger. Rather, you only have to do or say some trivial thing to TRIGGER the anger that is already there. Significantly, that anger can be triggered in just a few seconds anytime you try to bring up a sensitive issue -- and, as you likely know, nearly every issue requiring compromise or negotiation is sensitive. This means, then, that it is impossible to have a calm, rational discussion with a BPDer -- even when you find her in a happy, calm mood. That mood can instantly change because a BPDer is always just a few seconds away from releasing her rage -- if you trigger her.BPDers have a fragile, fractured sense of who they are. To the extent that a BPDer has a consistent self image, it is one of being "The Victim." They maintain a death grip on that false self image by continually seeking validation for it. Generally, this means you will be perceived as the "Perpetrator," the cause of every misfortune. Moreover, every imagined fault of yours will be added to a list that always gets longer and longer. And that list will be brought out every time you have an argument.
> 
> This action of blowing up every disagreement into an attack on everything you ever did wrong is called "kitchen sinking" -- because they will complain about everything except the kitchen sink. As you said last September (9/5/12), your W had been beating you over the head with the same complaint. You said, _"For the last 5 years I've been taking a lot of abuse for how I acted so I kept quiet about my own doubts."_
> 
> My exW, for example, would regularly bring up things which she imagined had happened many years earlier. She would accuse me of making up a new lie every week. Yet, when I would ask for a specific example of a lie I had told her recently, she would talk about something I supposedly had said 10 or 15 years earlier -- as though it had occurred only last week.It is very common for BPDers (i.e., those having strong traits) to try to isolate their spouses away from their support group -- away from all close friends and family members. Because BPDers have a strong fear of abandonment, they are very controlling of the loved one's personal life -- and controlling is easier when he has no support group to tell him otherwise.
> 
> It therefore is interesting that you mention nothing about your W having a fear of abandonment. Indeed, the closest you come to saying anything about it is this comment about how she objected to your being close to old friends and family members.You should stop doing that. That enabling behavior is harmful to both of you. This is why the #1 best-selling BPD book (targeted to the abused spouses) is called _Stop Walking on Eggshells._Such mood changes can be caused by a brain injury or brain tumor. But that is very rare. The common causes of mood changes include drug abuse and hormone changes (e.g., pregnancy, postpartum, and mid-life change). Yet, if you can rule those out -- and you seem to have done so -- the remaining common causes of serious mood changes are BPD and bipolar disorder (or both occurring together). Significantly, you are not describing the typical bipolar symptoms.It is common for the abused partners of BPDers to feel like they are losing their minds. Indeed, of the 157 mental disorders listed in the APA's Diagnostic Manual, BPD is the one most notorious for making the abused spouses feel like they may be going crazy. It is very confusing and disorienting to live with someone who, in a few seconds, will flip from adoring you to devaluing you -- and then, a few hours or days later, will flip back again just as quickly.Dog, that "perfection" is to be expected if she has strong BPD traits. BPDers are very VERY easy to fall in love with. Because they lack a strong sense of self, they tend to mirror the person they are around at the time. When they become infatuated with a lover, they pull out all the stops and mirror him so perfectly that both parties will be absolutely convinced they've met their soul mates. Significantly, if your W has strong BPD traits, she likely was just as convinced as you that she had met the "perfect" mate. It is that infatuation that holds her two great fears (abandonment and engulfment) at bay throughout the courtship period. Right after the wedding, however, the infatuation fades and the fears return.Dog, as an initial matter, I recommend that you NOT tell your W about your suspicions. If she is a BPDer, she almost certainly will project the accusation right back onto you, believing YOU to be the BPDer. Instead, simply encourage her to see a good psychologist (not a MC) and let the psych decide what to tell her.
> 
> Second, if you decide that her BPD traits are only at a moderate level and you want to remain with her, I suggest you learn the techniques for validating her. Because BPDers typically grew up in invalidating childhood environments, it is extremely important to them to be validated frequently. Granted, if she has strong BPD traits, such validation won't improve things much (if my experience is any guide). But, if she has only moderate BPD traits, validation may make a substantial improvement.
> 
> Toward that end, I suggest you get _Stop Walking on Eggshells_, the book I mentioned earlier. It discusses validation techniques and explains the importance of using them. (Or, if you ever decide to get a divorce instead, get _Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder_).
> 
> Third, I agree with 3Strikes' suggestion that you start participating (or at least lurking) at BPDfamily.com -- the largest and most active BPD forum I've found that is devoted fully to the spouses and family members of BPDers. This issue is such an enormous problem that that website is growing by 20 new members every day. The result is that it offers eight separate message boards on various BPD issues. The ones that likely will be most helpful to you are the "Staying" and "Leaving" board.
> 
> Fourth, while you are at BPDfamily.com, I suggest you read the excellent articles in their resources section. If you decide to remain married, the best article in that section for being supportive probably is Supporting a Loved-one with Borderline Personality Disorder -John G. Gunderson, M.D.. Like the book I mentioned above, this article discusses validation techniques and how to establish strong personal boundaries. I also recommend Kathy Batesel's article at Borderline Personality Disorder and Relationships.
> 
> Fifth, I suggest you read my brief overview of BPD traits in my post at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. Yet, based on what you said last December in BadGuy's thread, I suspect you've already read that post.
> 
> Sixth, I suggest you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you are dealing with. As I've explained in other threads, your best chance of getting a candid opinion regarding a possible BPD diagnosis is to NOT have the BPDer along. Therapists are loath to tell high functioning BPDers -- much less tell their spouses -- the name of the disorder.
> 
> Finally, Dog, please don't forget those of us on this TAM forum. We want to keep trying to answer your questions and providing emotional support as long as you find our shared experiences helpful. Moreover, by sharing your own experiences here, you likely are helping many other members and lurkers.




Uptown, thanks so much. I feel better just reading your post. I will follow your advice. You couldn't be more right with the evaluation of her traits and actions.
I'm seriously discouraged. We are in the phase after an event that she will do anything for me and she is incredibly attentive, trying to make it all up to me. It will wear off.

Thanks again.
I'll get back to you after reading a bit tonight.


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## Uptown

dogman said:


> Uptown....
> I'll get back to you after reading a bit tonight.


Hope so, Dog. I especially hope to hear what you meant about giving up all contact with your "family of origin" for your W. I was blown away, last October, by your story about your Dad (whose photo you show in your album). What an amazing guy! I hate the thought of your not spending more time with him -- before he died -- in a futile attempt to sooth and comfort your W (if, indeed, that is what happened).


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## dogman

Uptown said:


> Hope so, Dog. I especially hope to hear what you meant about giving up all contact with your "family of origin" for your W. I was blown away, last October, by your story about your Dad (whose photo you show in your album). What an amazing guy! I hate the thought of your not spending more time with him -- before he died -- in a futile attempt to sooth and comfort your W (if, indeed, that is what happened).



Well, I spent enough time with my father. He loved my wife and she was very fond of him in spite of some things he did in his life. At the end for my father I was his main comfort and guardian through his waning days. The pic you mention is special to me. My father was very proud of me at that moment. 

The family I have stayed away from are toxic and criminal. I am Italian and the Sicilian side is bad. They are cheaters and worse. It took a long time to learn that I am happier without them. By the way, I take after my fathers side which is Northern Italian.(more balanced, mentally haha!)

Needless to say my wife demonized them to an evil degree. I know they are just toxic. They take pride in messing with my wife. And causing problems between us.


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## dogman

Tell me if I've been on the right track so far. Writing this helps me organize my thought and direction with this.

-6 years ago for about 6 months we went to MC.
-She went to IC for about 6 months
-I went to IC for the better part of 2 years, but it was split into several months of sessions then I'd stop for a while and then go again when the crap got too deep. The last I went was about 6 months ago. She went a couple times 6 months ago as well.
-I learned to give her what she needs emotionally, instead of what I need to give her.
-I learned to talk...a lot.
-I set boundaries in arguments and during "events". But this is only enforceable if I'm willing to leave the premises. Which makes things worse because of the abandonment thing.
-I make sure it's on the record when she has morphed other anxiety into "Dogman is the bad guy"- misdirected anger/anxiety etc.
-I enlisted the help of her parents, who love me and think I'm awesome. This backfired because she has it in her head that I've ruined her relationship with her father. (He only lasted 15 minutes with her when she was having "fits". For me the last "event lasted about 28 hours including a 6 hour sleep break)
- I don't let anything go that I feel is unfair during our conversations. For instance, the statements that include "you always" and "you never"
-I've established that I'm not leaving no matter how many times she stomps out or says she wants a divorce. Much of her anger and hurt currently has its roots in the fact that I did leave 7 years ago for 7 months. I had given up. I returned for my 2 kids, at the time they were ages 11 and 13
-when she calms down, I voice my issues with her behavior. This is ok while she is in the regret phase after an event. This in not ok later. Later it can start the whole process over again.


As of late we have dangerous conversations weekly and a level 10 event once a month or two. We never go more than 2 months without a crazy town event. No matter what's starts the event it ends up being about me leaving her and betraying her by leaving and humiliating her.


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## ThreeStrikes

Dog, 

I don't know your story, but why do you want to be in a relationship like this? 

Love?

Edit: Much of what you write reminds me of my ex. Ugh. It's like these BPDers all follow the same behavior programming.


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## dogman

ThreeStrikes said:


> Dog,
> 
> I don't know your story, but why do you want to be in a relationship like this?
> 
> Love?
> 
> Edit: Much of what you write reminds me of my ex. Ugh. It's like these BPDers all follow the same behavior programming.


This is a legitimate question...

Honestly, the number one reason is because I really believe it would destroy her completely to end it. 
Secondly, I really want to stay with the wife of my youth and the mother of my children.
And yes I do love her but I can get over that. I loved her when I left before. I wouldn't stay just for that.

If I thought she would stay pi$$ed at me or just get over it I would go and be pretty happy since my kids are 19 and 20 currently and both are extremely close to me.

So, Im not quite ready to give up but a few days ago my answer might have been different.


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## Uptown

dogman said:


> I set boundaries in arguments and during "events". But this is only enforceable if I'm willing to leave the premises. Which makes things worse because of the abandonment thing.


Dog, as you already know, it is important to enforce the personal boundaries you establish. My experience is that, if she has only mild to moderate BPD traits, she will be able to tolerate the new boundaries and your relationship will be substantially improved. Yet, if she has strong BPD traits, she likely will be unwilling to tolerate the boundaries. One reason is that she will be unwilling to live with you when you stop "validating" her false self image of always being "The Victim." For that validation to continue, you must be willing to continue playing the role of "The Perpetrator" and -- occasionally -- the role of "The Savior." Both of those roles, however, require that you abandon your personal boundaries.

Another reason she will not tolerate your having strong boundaries is that your enforcing them -- as you already learned -- scares her badly because she will misinterpret it as a sure sign you are planning on leaving her. As you say, enforcing boundaries "makes things worse because of the abandonment thing."

Certainly, that was my experience. In the last two years of my marriage, I started standing up for myself by enforcing strong personal boundaries. My BPDer exW became so fearful of abandonment that she eventually had me thrown into jail -- on a bogus charge -- so she could get a restraining order preventing me from returning to my own home for 18 months (the time it takes here to get a divorce).

Hence, my advice is that you enforce your own personal boundaries, which means you occasionally will have to leave the premises. If she is able to handle it, fine. If not, you likely would find that her abandonment fear is so severe that she will preemptively abandon YOU to stop the uncertainty and pain. In that event, please be on your guard to avoid being thrown into jail on a bogus charge.


> As of late we have dangerous conversations weekly and a level 10 event once a month or two. We never go more than 2 months without a crazy town event.


Yes, that's the way it was with my exW and me. We could sometimes go as long as two months without a level 10 event. Intimacy -- as during a great vacation or intimate weekend -- would always speed up the next outburst because my exW needed to create drama to push me away, giving herself breathing room.


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## argyle

My wife has a BPD diagnosis, and suspected co-morbidity with autism. However, I suspect that the BPD diagnosis may be because no one bothers treating NPDs. 

Your wife sounds fairly BPD, consider also NPD. NPD is a common 30% or so co-morbidity for BPD - and related traits are probably more common.

I wouldn't worry about the one time you left - my wife has a whole list of problems that she'll dredge up when she's upset and looking for a fight.

If she keeps it together for other people, that's probably closer to NPD.

You might try leaving faster - 28 hours is a long time. One reason that her behavior continues is that she gets something out of it. You might try establishing a _really_ strict boundary and then leaving immediately when she violates it. (Make sure your bags are packed, et cetera, in advance.) My wife and I started making progress following (a) me leaving when she became abusive and (b) me having her arrested when she became physically abusive to prevent me leaving.

Overall, you've been with her for 20+ years. You seem to have a vaguely liveable living situation. It is fairly clear that you'd be best served by divorcing her and getting on with your life, but your marriage isn't bad enough that running really fast is mandatory for survival.

It isn't likely that she'll change appreciably - barring major life changes on her end. It actually might be healthy for her for you to leave. OTOH, personality disorders often decrease slowly with time...or get massively worse around menopause.

Counter-intuitive stuff that helped a bit...YMMV

(a) Y'know how there's a tendency for sane people to walk on eggshells to try to avoid crazytown? Stop. Validation tends to help when my wife isn't looking for a fight. The regular visits to crazytown...those were mostly my wife dealing with outside issues by choosing to abuse someone.

If I tried very hard to be a perfect husband, I visited crazytown once a month. Once I became frustrated and stopped trying, there'd be about one low-level incident a week, and crazytown every 6-8 weeks.

If anything, daily feedback, criticism, and bickering seemed to reduce the real crazy stuff.

(b) Y'know how there's a tendency for sane people to treat their partner's well? I'm not saying stop - but consider occasionally treating your partner in ways consonant with her behavior. (part of the problem was that I'm very even-tempered...)

For me, that meant spending an hour talking over my wife and lecturing her on her behavior while ignoring everything she said. By the end of the hour, she was: (a) huddled on the floor - making disconnected noises, (b) sufficiently discombobulated that she couldn't remember her name, and (c) requesting that I just tell her I'm not willing to talk and walk out instead. (Given that she'd refused to acknowledge that leaving an argument was ever acceptable for the better part of 5 years...I took it as progress.) Abusive? Yes. Made my point to a woman with zero empathy? Also yes.

--Argyle

*Lastly, please note that autism can sometimes either look like or be co-morbid with personality disorders.


----------



## PieceOfSky

If I may interject a brief question: Any of you who have experience with this ever read this book?: Amazon.com: Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder: How to Keep Out-of-Control Emotions from Destroying Your Relationship eBook: Shari Y. Manning, Marsha M. Linehan: Kindle Store

I ask, because it seems good so far, but maybe I should be starting with those mentioned above.

Good luck, dogman.


----------



## dogman

Uptown said:


> Dog, as you already know, it is important to enforce the personal boundaries you establish. My experience is that, if she has only mild to moderate BPD traits, she will be able to tolerate the new boundaries and your relationship will be substantially improved. Yet, if she has strong BPD traits, she likely will be unwilling to tolerate the boundaries. One reason is that she will be unwilling to live with you when you stop "validating" her false self image of always being "The Victim." For that validation to continue, you must be willing to continue playing the role of "The Perpetrator" and -- occasionally -- the role of "The Savior." Both of those roles, however, require that you abandon your personal boundaries.
> 
> Another reason she will not tolerate your having strong boundaries is that your enforcing them -- as you already learned -- scares her badly because she will misinterpret it as a sure sign you are planning on leaving her. As you say, enforcing boundaries "makes things worse because of the abandonment thing."
> 
> Certainly, that was my experience. In the last two years of my marriage, I started standing up for myself by enforcing strong personal boundaries. My BPDer exW became so fearful of abandonment that she eventually had me thrown into jail -- on a bogus charge -- so she could get a restraining order preventing me from returning to my own home for 18 months (the time it takes here to get a divorce).
> 
> Hence, my advice is that you enforce your own personal boundaries, which means you occasionally will have to leave the premises. If she is able to handle it, fine. If not, you likely would find that her abandonment fear is so severe that she will preemptively abandon YOU to stop the uncertainty and pain. In that event, please be on your guard to avoid being thrown into jail on a bogus charge.Yes, that's the way it was with my exW and me. We could sometimes go as long as two months without a level 10 event. Intimacy -- as during a great vacation or intimate weekend -- would always speed up the next outburst because my exW needed to create drama to push me away, giving herself breathing room.



Uptown, I think your right. I've managed to improve things by setting boundaries but only so far. In my opinion she must be mild because we've leveled off to a pattern that is kind of predictable every month of two. Where it started as every 3 to 7 days for years.
I pray it doesn't escalate to the level yours did. 

Thanks for the help.


----------



## soulpotato

argyle said:


> (b) Y'know how there's a tendency for sane people to treat their partner's well? I'm not saying stop - but consider occasionally treating your partner in ways consonant with her behavior. (part of the problem was that I'm very even-tempered...)
> 
> For me, that meant spending an hour talking over my wife and lecturing her on her behavior while ignoring everything she said. By the end of the hour, she was: (a) huddled on the floor - making disconnected noises, (b) sufficiently discombobulated that she couldn't remember her name, and (c) requesting that I just tell her I'm not willing to talk and walk out instead. (Given that she'd refused to acknowledge that leaving an argument was ever acceptable for the better part of 5 years...I took it as progress.) Abusive? Yes. Made my point to a woman with zero empathy? Also yes.


You talk about your wife's bad behavior, but what you mention doing to her above is extremely cruel and inhumane (and even sadder that it's calculated). You'll make things worse overall like that, not better. Abuse is NEVER okay. Certainly not to prove your point.


----------



## dogman

argyle said:


> My wife has a BPD diagnosis, and suspected co-morbidity with autism. However, I suspect that the BPD diagnosis may be because no one bothers treating NPDs.
> 
> Your wife sounds fairly BPD, consider also NPD. NPD is a common 30% or so co-morbidity for BPD - and related traits are probably more common.
> 
> I wouldn't worry about the one time you left - my wife has a whole list of problems that she'll dredge up when she's upset and looking for a fight.
> 
> If she keeps it together for other people, that's probably closer to NPD.
> 
> You might try leaving faster - 28 hours is a long time. One reason that her behavior continues is that she gets something out of it. You might try establishing a _really_ strict boundary and then leaving immediately when she violates it. (Make sure your bags are packed, et cetera, in advance.) My wife and I started making progress following (a) me leaving when she became abusive and (b) me having her arrested when she became physically abusive to prevent me leaving.
> 
> Overall, you've been with her for 20+ years. You seem to have a vaguely liveable living situation. It is fairly clear that you'd be best served by divorcing her and getting on with your life, but your marriage isn't bad enough that running really fast is mandatory for survival.
> 
> It isn't likely that she'll change appreciably - barring major life changes on her end. It actually might be healthy for her for you to leave. OTOH, personality disorders often decrease slowly with time...or get massively worse around menopause.
> 
> Counter-intuitive stuff that helped a bit...YMMV
> 
> (a) Y'know how there's a tendency for sane people to walk on eggshells to try to avoid crazytown? Stop. Validation tends to help when my wife isn't looking for a fight. The regular visits to crazytown...those were mostly my wife dealing with outside issues by choosing to abuse someone.
> 
> If I tried very hard to be a perfect husband, I visited crazytown once a month. Once I became frustrated and stopped trying, there'd be about one low-level incident a week, and crazytown every 6-8 weeks.
> 
> If anything, daily feedback, criticism, and bickering seemed to reduce the real crazy stuff.
> 
> (b) Y'know how there's a tendency for sane people to treat their partner's well? I'm not saying stop - but consider occasionally treating your partner in ways consonant with her behavior. (part of the problem was that I'm very even-tempered...)
> 
> For me, that meant spending an hour talking over my wife and lecturing her on her behavior while ignoring everything she said. By the end of the hour, she was: (a) huddled on the floor - making disconnected noises, (b) sufficiently discombobulated that she couldn't remember her name, and (c) requesting that I just tell her I'm not willing to talk and walk out instead. (Given that she'd refused to acknowledge that leaving an argument was ever acceptable for the better part of 5 years...I took it as progress.) Abusive? Yes. Made my point to a woman with zero empathy? Also yes.
> 
> --Argyle
> 
> *Lastly, please note that autism can sometimes either look like or be co-morbid with personality disorders.



Thank argyle, I appreciate the input.
I'll need to re read this and think on it a bit. 

My plan of action is improving the situation but we've plateaued. And I'm doubting my ability to survive a lifetime without a significant change.


----------



## soulpotato

ThreeStrikes said:


> Much of what you write reminds me of my ex. Ugh. It's like these BPDers all follow the same behavior programming.


People with BPD will exhibit similar behavioral traits, but please keep in mind that each person is a unique individual (with real feelings), regardless of PD similarities.

When you think about it, all humans generally follow "the same behavioral programming".


----------



## dogman

argyle said:


> My wife has a BPD diagnosis, and suspected co-morbidity with autism. However, I suspect that the BPD diagnosis may be because no one bothers treating NPDs.
> 
> Your wife sounds fairly BPD, consider also NPD. NPD is a common 30% or so co-morbidity for BPD - and related traits are probably more common.
> 
> I wouldn't worry about the one time you left - my wife has a whole list of problems that she'll dredge up when she's upset and looking for a fight.
> 
> If she keeps it together for other people, that's probably closer to NPD.
> 
> You might try leaving faster - 28 hours is a long time. One reason that her behavior continues is that she gets something out of it. You might try establishing a _really_ strict boundary and then leaving immediately when she violates it. (Make sure your bags are packed, et cetera, in advance.) My wife and I started making progress following (a) me leaving when she became abusive and (b) me having her arrested when she became physically abusive to prevent me leaving.
> 
> Overall, you've been with her for 20+ years. You seem to have a vaguely liveable living situation. It is fairly clear that you'd be best served by divorcing her and getting on with your life, but your marriage isn't bad enough that running really fast is mandatory for survival.
> 
> It isn't likely that she'll change appreciably - barring major life changes on her end. It actually might be healthy for her for you to leave. OTOH, personality disorders often decrease slowly with time...or get massively worse around menopause.
> 
> Counter-intuitive stuff that helped a bit...YMMV
> 
> (a) Y'know how there's a tendency for sane people to walk on eggshells to try to avoid crazytown? Stop. Validation tends to help when my wife isn't looking for a fight. The regular visits to crazytown...those were mostly my wife dealing with outside issues by choosing to abuse someone.
> 
> If I tried very hard to be a perfect husband, I visited crazytown once a month. Once I became frustrated and stopped trying, there'd be about one low-level incident a week, and crazytown every 6-8 weeks.
> 
> If anything, daily feedback, criticism, and bickering seemed to reduce the real crazy stuff.
> 
> (b) Y'know how there's a tendency for sane people to treat their partner's well? I'm not saying stop - but consider occasionally treating your partner in ways consonant with her behavior. (part of the problem was that I'm very even-tempered...)
> 
> For me, that meant spending an hour talking over my wife and lecturing her on her behavior while ignoring everything she said. By the end of the hour, she was: (a) huddled on the floor - making disconnected noises, (b) sufficiently discombobulated that she couldn't remember her name, and (c) requesting that I just tell her I'm not willing to talk and walk out instead. (Given that she'd refused to acknowledge that leaving an argument was ever acceptable for the better part of 5 years...I took it as progress.) Abusive? Yes. Made my point to a woman with zero empathy? Also yes.
> 
> --Argyle
> 
> *Lastly, please note that autism can sometimes either look like or be co-morbid with personality disorders.



For the record, since our initial separation 7 years ago, I have never left. I've broken contact by going outside or to another room. But I've never left the general area. With her abandonment fear. I have no intention of using leaving as a weapon, I will only leave when I've given up.
When things calm down after many hours, it's because a transformation happens and she suddenly is not irrational anymore and my assurances seem to do what they should.

My main weapon or defense right now is to know in my heart and my head that she has a problem and its not a reflection on our marriage but rather something we need to manage if we are to make it another 22 years. 

It really helps to hear about others who have struggled with this situation.


----------



## argyle

It might be better to reframe your decisions in terms of what you are willing/able to live with. I'm assuming, since you're concerned about survival, that leaving when you give up means tolerating significant disturbances in your sleep schedule and probably participating in fits longer than 3 hours in length, with probable maximum durations <48 hours.

If you plan ahead to make leaving easy and leave, significantly earlier, your suffering will decrease significantly. That's probably the largest direct change you can make. Your wife may choose to leave over that, but that isn't something you can control. If it is a choice between divorce, death, and leaving more frequently - the last choice is probably the least harmful to your wife. 

It isn't that leaving is a weapon, it is a choice to leave when she becomes abusive and to let her deal with the consequences of her choice to be abusive. Sadly, it is also a choice to do something that hurts her deeply. On the bright side, it is also a choice to give her a chance to adapt to your feelings/needs and adopt more positive behaviors.

In our case, my wife's communication issues (rigid speech/monologues) are such that finishing a civil discussion in less than 2 hours is generally unrealistic. But, I've heard that normal discussion can generally be dealt with in less than 1 hour. That might be a reasonable time limit.

You may feel that the extra trauma to your wife from being repeatedly abandoned isn't worth it. That's a reasonable choice. It is worth considering that enabling abusive (any argument that you're worried about surviving is likely abusive...unless you just have no instinct for self-preservation) behavior is harmful to your wife. OTOH, repeated abandonment trauma does tend to make things worse... I'm not sure that either direction will necessarily be better. The problem is that...it is pretty likely that your wife has developed the habit of abusing you to deal with the stress of life - tolerating that behavior is counterproductive.

After my wife's arrest, I visited a DV counselor for a while. She gave me two helpful bits of advice...
(a) That constant validation and kindness tended to lead to therapeutic R/S, which are toxic to both parties because they aren't representative of normal human interaction. She felt occasional validation when someone was close to an episode was ok - but that validating useless arguments instead of calling her on them and walking out was a waste of time and inhibited my wife's personal growth.*
(b) That she didn't hit her husband because (1) she'd go to jail, lose her license, get in trouble with her friends and (2) have a hard time eating with no teeth. Reacting to hostility with anger is normal human behavior - and tends to limit abuse. It also provides useful emotional feedback. 

That said, some angry behaviors tends to end arguments and some angry behaviors escalate them. So, planning an angry response helped me. And, somehow, showing anger helps my wife - it triggers less abandonment because she feels I'm being emotionally open and she understands why I'm walking off...

And, the truth is that my wife was always significantly better behaved towards friends and family. Friends dealt with her BS with 'STFU, that's BS. Are you crazy?' Family dealt with her BS with 'STFU, crazy $#%. GTF away from me.' or 'Kneel before your father. Now. (punches follow) Okay. Stop throwing stuff and apologize.' 

I dealt with her with:
'Oh, you need to talk. I hear that..blah.' And, long-term, with no limits on her behavior, she got a lot worse - and found herself becoming a person she disliked. Mind you, her family's behavior explains a lot of her issues...but...being around someone whose only way of limiting bad behavior involves talking calmly and rationally and then walking out...wasn't healthy for her.

--Argyle
*Responding to 'My friends are plotting against me.' with 'Y'know, I don't have time for this, but, off-hand, that's just paranoid BS stemming from your mental illness.' is a perfectly normal, rational response and will trigger a fight. But, living with crazy people involves stress. Long-term, behaving like a normal human being will tend to result in your wife adjusting to that behavior. In our case, she adjusted to 'I'm feeling paranoid because my friend did X, what does that mean?'


----------



## ShockwaveRider

Uptown said:


> ::Everything uptown posted::


Hammer, meet nail.

As in uptown "hit the nail right on the head".

Actually pretty much perfectly described my 15 year marriage, with the exception of he failed to mention I was blamed for transgressions by me that occurred in her dreams.

I mean literally, in her dreams.

Honestly, dogman, I can't see this ever getting better for you.

Get out. Now.

While you can still salvage what's left of your life.

Shockwave


----------



## Uptown

PieceOfSky said:


> Any of you who have experience with this ever read this book?: Amazon.com: Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder: How to Keep Out-of-Control Emotions from Destroying Your Relationship eBook: Shari Y. Manning, Marsha M. Linehan: Kindle Store


I haven't read it, Sky. But I would be interested in hearing your evaluation of it when you complete it. As I mentioned to Dog, my experience is that learning validation and boundry-building techniques can be very helpful when dealing with someone having moderate BPD traits. My BPDer exW, however, had strong traits. Hence, I wasted a small fortune and 15 years taking her to six different psychologists (and 3 MCs) -- all to no avail. My experience is that, when the traits are strong and the BPDer refuses to work hard in therapy, all the validation in the world will be useless because the BPDer is incapable of trusting anything you say.


----------



## soulpotato

PieceOfSky said:


> If I may interject a brief question: Any of you who have experience with this ever read this book?: Amazon.com: Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder: How to Keep Out-of-Control Emotions from Destroying Your Relationship eBook: Shari Y. Manning, Marsha M. Linehan: Kindle Store
> 
> I ask, because it seems good so far, but maybe I should be starting with those mentioned above.


I had started reading that one, about 25% done. It seems very good, very helpful, with actual steps a non-BPD person could follow to deal with the BPDer's behavior in an effective yet compassionate fashion. It focuses on the welfare of both parties. A very balanced book so far, IMO. I would recommend it.


----------



## soulpotato

Dogman, to say that living with that kind of behavior for 22+ years is difficult is an understatement. I think the first step in dealing with this is that your wife would need to see a therapist and get properly diagnosed. But if she does have BPD, you really need a therapist who specializes in treating BPD and can do DBT with her. Otherwise treatment will not be effective and may even harm your wife, making things worse. 

However, if your wife cannot admit that she has a problem and cannot earnestly seek help, then there is not much you can do. Maybe you can make her see how hard this has been on you and how it will be the end of your marriage if things don't change in her. Maybe not. It will be very hard for your wife to realize that she cannot necessarily trust her thoughts and feelings, her perceptions. That her reality is not always "the" reality, despite feelings of conviction.

Just like Uptown says, boundaries and validation are key. Those will really help you with de-escalating situations that arise and making things livable.

People with BPD CAN change and can get better. They'll always have that vulnerability, but they can become psychologically healthy and learn how to have good relationships, be effective, etc.


----------



## dogman

soulpotato said:


> Dogman, to say that living with that kind of behavior for 22+ years is difficult is an understatement. I think the first step in dealing with this is that your wife would need to see a therapist and get properly diagnosed. But if she does have BPD, you really need a therapist who specializes in treating BPD and can do DBT with her. Otherwise treatment will not be effective and may even harm your wife, making things worse.
> 
> However, if your wife cannot admit that she has a problem and cannot earnestly seek help, then there is not much you can do. Maybe you can make her see how hard this has been on you and how it will be the end of your marriage if things don't change in her. Maybe not. It will be very hard for your wife to realize that she cannot necessarily trust her thoughts and feelings, her perceptions. That her reality is not always "the" reality, despite feelings of conviction.
> 
> Just like Uptown says, boundaries and validation are key. Those will really help you with de-escalating situations that arise and making things livable.
> 
> People with BPD CAN change and can get better. They'll always have that vulnerability, but they can become psychologically healthy and learn how to have good relationships, be effective, etc.



Thanks soulpotato,
I agree with you that they can change, I've seen it. She was way worse 4 years ago. I see her struggle and we've made it this far because I've been setting boundaries and giving her validation. 
It wasn't like this for 22 years. I saw signs of this here and there. I also wasn't the main focus of her anxiety, yes it did get misdirected at me more than normal and it ramped up till i left, and in hindsight she has been some level of BPD the entire time but it became maximum bad after I left her and we reconciled.
I left because I didn't realize she had a condition and with a combo of other issues I had a breakdown of sorts and "lost my sh!t" so to speak. I realized I didn't want that life so we started working it out.
This is the part of my vows that I see as the most important part..."for better or worse" this is the tail end of 6 years of the "worse" I think I can manage this with a little help from you guys out there who have dealt with BPD before.
I want, someday to be seen as tenacious as my father through adversity. 
I'm reading a lot and am hopeful.


----------



## argyle

As you're reading stuff...

Boundaries (Townsend) is an excellent reference on compassionate boundaries.

The Wizard of Oz and other Narcissists (Payson) is a decent reference (and the only one I've found not focused on immediately extricating oneself) on dealing with abusive narcissists.

The Emotionally Abusive Relationship (Engels) is an excellent reference on emotionally abusive relationships.

Putting the Pieces Together: A Practical Guide to Recovery From Borderline Personality Disorder (Jensen) is an excellent alternative to the DBT manual. The big bonus is that it contains basically the same information and is about 1/4 the length.

Stop Walking on Eggshells, and the followup books aren't bad either.

Attending workshops (free!!) on 'Mastering the Mysteries of Love' was also surprisingly helpful - free sponsored workshops on marital communication - quite possibly available locally. Don't expect a lot of success...but...the humiliation factor attendant upon having the assistants correct every sentence coming from my wife's mouth and in her failing every exercise intended to show empathy...sparked some self-examination later.

Generally, external real-world experiences were surprisingly useful because they tended to provide absolute feedback and because many of my wife's complaints were projections of her own inadequacies. DV->arrest...okay, beating people is frowned on. MC->GTFO...they seem to not like me for some reason. Workshop->OK, every word I speak falls in the 'don't do that' column...maybe my husband isn't the only problem. Autism books/groups->Dang, they're just like me...Oops. I'm autistic.

So, responding to complaints by accepting her complaints and going as a couple to group settings intended to correct her complaints was pretty effective. It is less frustrating if you accept that the point of, eg, MC is not to directly improve the R/S, but to simply expose your spouse to a range of sane people and let them suffer rational consequences. There's no harm in learning from the MC, but, eh, your wife will probably dominate the time spent in a completely nonproductive fashion, so don't expect much.

Lastly, medication is a long, frustrating process - but antianxiety, antipsychotics, and antidepressants may or may not be useful.

--Argyle


----------



## COguy

I feel for you dog (haha).

I can only say that you have no idea how messed up YOU are from her behavior until you remove yourself from the situation for several weeks/months. This kind of abuse really takes a toll on you.

I just can't imagine staying in a relationship like that after being free from one. Yes the initial split is incredibly painful, but once you are free, you will begin to realize how bad life is. As codependents (and that's what you are if you've stuck around this long), we have a tendency to downplay our feelings and accept sh*tty circumstances.

I'm just here to say that life can be so much better. Whether you stay or go STOP WALKING ON EGGSHELLS. Do NOT isolate yourself from YOUR friends and family, because they are the ones that will keep you sane.

Good luck.


----------



## dogman

COguy said:


> I feel for you dog (haha).
> 
> I can only say that you have no idea how messed up YOU are from her behavior until you remove yourself from the situation for several weeks/months. This kind of abuse really takes a toll on you.
> 
> I just can't imagine staying in a relationship like that after being free from one. Yes the initial split is incredibly painful, but once you are free, you will begin to realize how bad life is. As codependents (and that's what you are if you've stuck around this long), we have a tendency to downplay our feelings and accept sh*tty circumstances.
> 
> I'm just here to say that life can be so much better. Whether you stay or go STOP WALKING ON EGGSHELLS. Do NOT isolate yourself from YOUR friends and family, because they are the ones that will keep you sane.
> 
> Good luck.



Ok...actually I realized awhile ago that I was messed up from her. It was after I had an emergency IC session that I never would have gotten had I not been on a suicide hotline.
I tend to be co dependent, yes. I am working on that. Life has gotten quite a bit better since I started to work on it. And a bunch of other things. I have started to expand my friendships and do more with my kids and without my wife.
Generally, nothing is good if its bad with my wife...codependent, I know. I'm trying to lengthen the time that's good and shorten the bad events that happen.

COguy, I read some of your story and I really feel for you as well.
I appreciate the words and trust me...leaving is on the table but I'd rather not if I can shrink this issue. I say shrink because I realize it won't go away entirely. Your words to not walk on eggshells will be on my mind and I'm formulating a plan that if it fails...I'm out.

I know I can be happy leaving and I will find someone else. Even financially I'm solid and can do this. Like everyone on here my goal is to avoid that and tap new resources like all of you guys who have survived the crazy town that is hard to describe unless you've been there.

I can see I have some things to start doing and not doing.


----------



## soulpotato

dogman said:


> Thanks soulpotato,
> I agree with you that they can change, I've seen it. She was way worse 4 years ago. I see her struggle and we've made it this far because I've been setting boundaries and giving her validation.


It is great that you have stuck it out for that long and have put that effort into working with her. 



dogman said:


> It wasn't like this for 22 years. I saw signs of this here and there. I also wasn't the main focus of her anxiety, yes it did get misdirected at me more than normal and it ramped up till i left, and in hindsight she has been some level of BPD the entire time but it became maximum bad after I left her and we reconciled.


There were times when her behavior ramped up or fell off, depending on triggers, stresses in her life, etc. It makes perfect sense that it became very bad after you left. You know how sensitive BPDers are to possible rejection and abandonment. Her greatest fears were realized when you left. Even though you're reconciling now, her emotional state and behaviors are still somewhat ramped up, right? Probably because she stopped feeling you were relatively "safe" when you left. (Which you did for your own welfare, but that won't mean anything to those fears.) It may take her some time to build that trust back up. People say that BPDers can't trust at all, but that's not true - it's just very hard and very slow, and can be easily damaged.

Do you know why she was getting worse before you left? Does she know?



dogman said:


> I left because I didn't realize she had a condition and with a combo of other issues I had a breakdown of sorts and "lost my sh!t" so to speak. I realized I didn't want that life so we started working it out.


It is a lot to go through, especially if you don't know that the other person has BPD. At least if you know, you can start to understand what it's all about and how to preserve your own emotional well-being (especially if you're trying to stay). It was courageous of you to go back. You must care about your wife a great deal.



dogman said:


> This is the part of my vows that I see as the most important part..."for better or worse" this is the tail end of 6 years of the "worse" I think I can manage this with a little help from you guys out there who have dealt with BPD before.


It's admirable that you take your vows so seriously, even when things are so tough.  I'd be glad to help. If you want to talk or have any questions you want to ask me, feel free.



dogman said:


> I want, someday to be seen as tenacious as my father through adversity.
> I'm reading a lot and am hopeful.


You are tenacious through adversity already!  I'm glad that you're hopeful - you do have reason to be, especially if your wife gets help soon.


----------



## dogman

soulpotato said:


> It is great that you have stuck it out for that long and have put that effort into working with her.
> 
> 
> 
> There were times when her behavior ramped up or fell off, depending on triggers, stresses in her life, etc. It makes perfect sense that it became very bad after you left. You know how sensitive BPDers are to possible rejection and abandonment. Her greatest fears were realized when you left. Even though you're reconciling now, her emotional state and behaviors are still somewhat ramped up, right? Probably because she stopped feeling you were relatively "safe" when you left. (Which you did for your own welfare, but that won't mean anything to those fears.) It may take her some time to build that trust back up. People say that BPDers can't trust at all, but that's not true - it's just very hard and very slow, and can be easily damaged.
> 
> Do you know why she was getting worse before you left? Does she know?
> 
> 
> 
> It is a lot to go through, especially if you don't know that the other person has BPD. At least if you know, you can start to understand what it's all about and how to preserve your own emotional well-being (especially if you're trying to stay). It was courageous of you to go back. You must care about your wife a great deal.
> 
> 
> 
> It's admirable that you take your vows so seriously, even when things are so tough.  I'd be glad to help. If you want to talk or have any questions you want to ask me, feel free.
> 
> 
> 
> You are tenacious through adversity already!  I'm glad that you're hopeful - you do have reason to be, especially if your wife gets help soon.



Thanks soulpotato, it ramped up because of rejection she felt from my family of origin. My 2 sisters have been very hard on her and my brother divorced and remarried a ****tail waitress who is just like my sisters. 
The same pattern of behavior that happened with them also happened after we reconciled. She would melt down about every 3 days. Talking about the same things over and over. There's a loop to it as you know.
Like I said before these women in my family are north jersey Italian and very aggressive while my wife is very soft spoken and not like them at all. 

Yes, I do care about her very much.


----------



## Robsia

Our MC has suggested my H might have Fragmented Personality Disorder which, when I looked it up, was basically another name for DID. He also strongly identified with a lot of the signs of BPD.



> In another thread, you stated "She would tell me to just leave, get out. She even wished I would just die in my sleep" (Your 9/30/12 post). This type of hateful speech is typical of what a BPDer will say while "splitting you black."


He has said these types of things to me. Once he told me he wished I would choke in my sleep. When we were still living together he would frequently tell me to get out, to leave. Once he tried to throw my kids and me out on Christmas Eve. In his good phases he explained this to me as being he was so scared I would leave him because of his behaviour that he would pre-empt it by telling me to go. He pushes me away pretty much every time we have a disgreement, even a minor one. His usual chorus is "Well, you may as well just divorce me then."



> Intimacy -- as during a great vacation or intimate weekend -- would always speed up the next outburst because my exW needed to create drama to push me away, giving herself breathing room.


We have never had a holiday, or even a weekend away, without falling out. We've managed a single night in a hotel, but never a whole weekend.



> If she keeps it together for other people, that's probably closer to NPD.


 My H is generally fine with other people. His mother even told him he didn't need to go for treatment for his anger issues. There was a recent issue at work where he got 'told off' by his new female boss for a mess-up on his watch. I expressed my surprise that he had managed not to blow his top, when if I had said something like that I would have got it with both barrels. He said that when someone has power over your position it's easier to control. So basically he feels he doesn't have to control it with me because I have no power over him. He didn't really like it when I pointed that out.

However, he does get very angry with strangers at a distance, e.g. road rage issues etc, but not face to face. One time in a lift a little boy in a pushchair was kicking his legs (his own legs) and his accidentally kicked my H's legs. My H turned to the little boy and said "If you do that again I'll kick you back!" I was horrified. But then when the kid's dad confronted him, he backed down.

We've gone through a LOT in the last year, and he is starting to realise that there is something majorly wrong. He has been referred to an Equal Partnering Programme through Relate and he is seeing a psychiatrist next month. Only time will tell if he genuinely wants to work on his issues.


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## dogman

Robsia said:


> Our MC has suggested my H might have Fragmented Personality Disorder which, when I looked it up, was basically another name for DID. He also strongly identified with a lot of the signs of BPD.
> 
> 
> 
> He has said these types of things to me. Once he told me he wished I would choke in my sleep. When we were still living together he would frequently tell me to get out, to leave. Once he tried to throw my kids and me out on Christmas Eve. In his good phases he explained this to me as being he was so scared I would leave him because of his behaviour that he would pre-empt it by telling me to go. He pushes me away pretty much every time we have a disgreement, even a minor one. His usual chorus is "Well, you may as well just divorce me then."
> 
> 
> 
> We have never had a holiday, or even a weekend away, without falling out. We've managed a single night in a hotel, but never a whole weekend.
> 
> My H is generally fine with other people. His mother even told him he didn't need to go for treatment for his anger issues. There was a recent issue at work where he got 'told off' by his new female boss for a mess-up on his watch. I expressed my surprise that he had managed not to blow his top, when if I had said something like that I would have got it with both barrels. He said that when someone has power over your position it's easier to control. So basically he feels he doesn't have to control it with me because I have no power over him. He didn't really like it when I pointed that out.
> 
> However, he does get very angry with strangers at a distance, e.g. road rage issues etc, but not face to face. One time in a lift a little boy in a pushchair was kicking his legs (his own legs) and his accidentally kicked my H's legs. My H turned to the little boy and said "If you do that again I'll kick you back!" I was horrified. But then when the kid's dad confronted him, he backed down.
> 
> We've gone through a LOT in the last year, and he is starting to realise that there is something majorly wrong. He has been referred to an Equal Partnering Programme through Relate and he is seeing a psychiatrist next month. Only time will tell if he genuinely wants to work on his issues.



Hi Robsia,
My wife keeps it together for other people fantastic. Most people think she's amazing. Even when she's been treated badly she doesn't respond. Instead she brings is home and melts down and if I can't console her it gets misdirected at me somehow. At the very least she will carry it for a long time- years and years, obsessing on it and if it was my family that mistreated her it would turn into the issue of me somehow not protecting her or I didn't respond with enough anger when I found out about the incident.

I've learned to not take responsibility for things that are not my fault or issues. I'm also not responsible for her feelings that get hurt from others. She needs to learn to self soothe.

Congrats on getting him to realize his role in anything at all!
I'm working toward this with my wife, with baby steps of course.


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## Robsia

I've been looking on that board that you were recommended and found this thread: Take the Pledge

The first thing that struck me was that people with BPD have a mental illness. Even if it turns out my H has DID and not BPD - it's still a mental illness. If I expect him to deal with my ASD, then I should also make allowances for him, to an extent.

In neither case is emotional abuse acceptable though. That's where personal boundaries come in. I won't deal with Mr. Nasty, but I also won't try to reason with him, because it's impossible.

It's a tough one, if we choose to stick with it.


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## argyle

The thing that helped me was making a *written* ~3 year plan and stuff to try, with set milestones and keeping a diary that I used to monitor progress. (Eg, one early target was 1 or less violent episodes within 6 months. Another was 1 or less 12 hour or longer crazytown visits per month.)

It is easy to either drag things out indefinitely in an unacceptable situation or to become discouraged, even when progress is being made, when your spouse is having an episode. Neither outcome is optimal, and having something set in stone helps.

Then, I communicated that plan to my wife. I found it more useful to focus on unacceptable behaviors/my response to those behaviors and let my wife figure out how she would go about changing those behaviors than to push her into therapy. Albeit, she decided that was the best option...

Y'know...
Our marriage sucks. And 48 hour rages are tiring for both of us. That sort of stress isn't healthy for anyone. I'm not planning on leaving soon, but, unless we can change that dynamic, I will be divorcing you.

So, here's what I'm thinking. At the moment, you have one gigantic meltdown per month. Eventually, I'd like to get that down to one per year. So, I'd like to try MC, et cetera, and see how far we can get in the next 6 months. I'm thinking that if we can reduce the number of crazytown visits by 3X, that'd be pretty good. Do you have any suggestions? Okay, so here's the plan...let's meet back in a week to discuss how it is going.

--Argyle


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## soulpotato

argyle said:


> If she keeps it together for other people, that's probably closer to NPD.


This actually isn't true. High-functioning BPDers often only really freak out with/around people they're close or familiar with. They can keep it together around other people. The real acting out is reserved for the closer people. I mean, they don't care about strangers and acquaintances, so there's less emotional pressure to deal with.


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## Uptown

Robsia said:


> My H is generally fine with other people.


Robsia, I agree with SoulPotato that, because the vast majority of BPDers are high functioning, most BPDers typically interact very well with casual friends, business associates, and total strangers. The reason is that NONE of those people is able to pose a threat to the BPDer's two great fears: abandonment and engulfment. There is no close relationship to abandon and no intimacy to cause engulfment. 

Yet, if they make the mistake of drawing very close to the BPDer, they will start triggering both of those fears. This is why it is common for a BPDer to treat total strangers with compassion and kindness all day long -- and then go home at night to abuse the very people who love him.


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## COguy

Uptown said:


> Robsia, I agree with SoulPotato that, because the vast majority of BPDers are high functioning, most BPDers typically interact very well with casual friends, business associates, and total strangers. The reason is that NONE of those people is able to pose a threat to the BPDer's two great fears: abandonment and engulfment. There is no close relationship to abandon and no intimacy to cause engulfment.
> 
> Yet, if they make the mistake of drawing very close to the BPDer, they will start triggering both of those fears. This is why it is common for a BPDer to treat total strangers with compassion and kindness all day long -- and then go home at night to abuse the very people who love him.


It's also important to remember that all of the Cluster B PDs show similar traits, and what may look like BPD could easily be NPD or Histrionic PD or Anti-social PD. People with Cluster B's are very good at putting up fronts, especially if they are histrionic. My ex for example, will act like a saint the first time you meet her. You wouldn't notice she's crazy unless you watched her closely and were able to observe her patterns over a long period of time. Very few people get to see that, so you only see the perfect girl that has it all together and just seems to have bad things happen to her.


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## argyle

@soul You're right. BPD tends to be a lot more apparent in intimate situations. So holding it together outside the home isn't necessarily a marker.

I'm thinking more of the aggressively outwardly perfect BPD who (a) reacts very badly to any criticism and (b) comes home and abuses their partner. My suspicion is that those people tend to have NPD tendencies - and - given that NPD was estimated to be a 30% co-morbidity for BPD - that guess may be reasonable. 

My secondary observation has been that emotional validation is fairly useless with these people, as it simply simplifies abuse. Conversations with those people have rarely, in my experience, been about genuine emotional needs. They're usually more about maintaining self-image or justifying a low view of other people to explain personal failures. OTOH, consequences work fairly well.

@others The way I heard it explained, right before an hour long screaming fit...(I wonder if it might sound familiar.)

Well, I need to stay strong and think well of myself.
But, you just doubted my competence.
Therefore, I need to make it clear to myself that you are a useless piece of $#5 and your opinions don't matter.
By explaining in every way possible that you are lower than dust.
...hour long curse-fest at high volume

--Argyle


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## pidge70

> For me, that meant spending an hour talking over my wife and lecturing her on her behavior while ignoring everything she said. By the end of the hour, she was: (a) huddled on the floor - making disconnected noises, (b) sufficiently discombobulated that she couldn't remember her name, and (c) requesting that I just tell her I'm not willing to talk and walk out instead. (Given that she'd refused to acknowledge that leaving an argument was ever acceptable for the better part of 5 years...I took it as progress.) Abusive? Yes. Made my point to a woman with zero empathy? Also yes


As a diagnosed BPD'er myself, had you done this to me, I would have snapped the Hell out on you. If your wife has been diagnosed with Autistic traits and you did this, Hell, even if she wasn't diagnosed with anything, that is just a horrible way to treat someone. How does that make you any better than her? Also, I would think that you treating her that way would just feed her "victim" mentality.


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## Uptown

Robsia said:


> Our MC has suggested my H might have Fragmented Personality Disorder which, when I looked it up, was basically another name for DID.


Perhaps so, Robsia. But what you describe in your threads sounds far closer to BPD. Specifically, the behaviors you discuss -- i.e., verbal abuse, rages, rapid flips between Jekyll (loving you) and Hyde (devaluing you), fear of abandonment, irrational jealousy, black-white thinking (regarding you as being a porn star because you write erotica), and his very controlling behavior -- are classic traits of BPD.

I therefore suggest you see a clinical psychologist (or psychiatrist) -- for a visit or two by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you are dealing with. To obtain a candid opinion, it is important that your psychologist NOT be the same one he is seeing. Generally, therapists are loath to tell a high functioning BPDer -- much less tell his W -- the name of his disorder. 

They routinely withhold this information to protect the BPDer, as I've explained in other threads. This is why your best chance of being told is when you see a psychologist who is ethically bound to protect only YOUR best interests, not his. For a more detailed explanation of why the information typically is withheld, see my post at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-official-im-getting-divorced.html#post811909. And for a description of the BPD traits, I suggest you take a look at my post at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. Take care, Robsia.


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## soulpotato

argyle said:


> @soul You're right. BPD tends to be a lot more apparent in intimate situations. So holding it together outside the home isn't necessarily a marker.
> 
> I'm thinking more of the aggressively outwardly perfect BPD who (a) reacts very badly to any criticism and (b) comes home and abuses their partner. My suspicion is that those people tend to have NPD tendencies - and - given that NPD was estimated to be a 30% co-morbidity for BPD - that guess may be reasonable.


Hmm, I think it may depend on lots of variables. I don't know that NPD and abusiveness in BPD are linked, and a BPDer with NPD tendencies won't necessarily have full-blown NPD (so who knows how this trait or that trait will factor in). I also think the abuse isn't always very obvious or overt in all situations, and if the BPDer's partner/spouse is also abusive or has a PD, it just complicates matters more. With all these factors involved, it wouldn't do to generalize. (I haven't read much of anything on BPDers who actually have NPD as a comorbid condition, though of course I know it's possible. Now I'm curious.) 



argyle said:


> My secondary observation has been that emotional validation is fairly useless with these people, as it simply simplifies abuse. Conversations with those people have rarely, in my experience, been about genuine emotional needs. They're usually more about maintaining self-image or justifying a low view of other people to explain personal failures. OTOH, consequences work fairly well.


I don't know that emotional validation is useless with _anyone_, although the effect of it will undoubtedly vary. But even with comorbid conditions, if someone has BPD, I would think that validation would still be critical. One must be careful that "consequences" don't equal abuse, or become an excuse to abuse.

As far as I know, though, yes, people who are _purely_ NPD are very much about maintaining self-image, etc.


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## soulpotato

dogman said:


> Thanks soulpotato, it ramped up because of rejection she felt from my family of origin. My 2 sisters have been very hard on her and my brother divorced and remarried a ****tail waitress who is just like my sisters.
> The same pattern of behavior that happened with them also happened after we reconciled. She would melt down about every 3 days. Talking about the same things over and over. There's a loop to it as you know.
> Like I said before these women in my family are north jersey Italian and very aggressive while my wife is very soft spoken and not like them at all.
> 
> Yes, I do care about her very much.


So the family situation put pressure on her, and then things compounded when you had to leave. I can see how the combined pressure could have her acting out a lot and being very unstable.

Have you ever tried to intervene with your family? If you agree that they have been hard on her, then would you say that they are mistreating her in some way (other than the rejection, which would be distressing even for someone without BPD)? If your wife does have BPD, the less stress she experiences, the better. Of course life is full of stress, but if it's something that can be dealt with or managed, so much the better.

Yep, BPDers can get stuck on things, even repeating the same sentences or words over and over. In an attempt to be heard or hammer things out, perhaps. Obsessiveness can be a problem, certainly, especially with unresolved issues.


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## Uptown

soulpotato said:


> A BPDer with NPD tendencies won't necessarily have full-blown NPD (so who knows how this trait or that trait will factor in).


SoulPotato, I agree with Argyle that the comorbidity of BPD and NPD is believed to exceed 30%. The only large scale study of BPD (which interviewed nearly 35,000 American adults) found that 39% of BPDers also have NPD. For males, that comorbidity figure is 47% and for women it is 32%. See Table 3 at Prevalence, Correlates, Disability, and Comorbidity of DSM-IV Borderline Personality Disorder: Results from the Wave 2 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions.

Yet, like you SoulPotato, I have difficulty imagining how BPD and NPD can be combined. Whereas BPDers can love, NPDers cannot. And, whereas BPDers are very unstable, NPDers are not. I cannot understand how a person can be both stable and unstable -- and both capable of loving and also incapable of it. I therefore suspect, as you do, that comorbidity means that one of those disorders is dominant and the other is secondary. Still, they both were determined to constitute full-blown disorders for those BPDers exhibiting both disorders.


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## soulpotato

Uptown said:


> SoulPotato, I agree with Argyle that the comorbidity of BPD and NPD is believed to exceed 30%. The only large scale study of BPD (which interviewed nearly 35,000 American adults) found that 39% of BPDers also have NPD. For males, that comorbidity figure is 47% and for women it is 32%. See Table 3 at Prevalence, Correlates, Disability, and Comorbidity of DSM-IV Borderline Personality Disorder: Results from the Wave 2 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions.


I'll have to read that this weekend (I did look at the table). I have heard a lot about the comorbidity of bipolar, depression, and PTSD with BPD, but oddly enough not full-blown NPD. I've heard _traits_ of NPD are common in those with BPD (though I've not looked into statistics on that).

However, assuming right out of the box that BPDers have NPD or that they should be treated without empathy or validation is no good. Even if a BPDer does have NPD or if the comorbidity is 30-some percent. No one deserves to be abused or treated badly.

Again, I think people get lost in statistics and common symptom lists and forget that they're dealing with individuals (and human beings). 



Uptown said:


> Yet, like you SoulPotato, I have difficulty imagining how BPD and NPD can be combined. Whereas BPDers can love, NPDers cannot. And, whereas BPDers are very unstable, NPDers are not. I cannot understand how a person can be both stable and unstable -- and both capable of loving and also incapable of it. I therefore suspect, as you do, that comorbidity means that one of those disorders is dominant and the other is secondary. Still, they both were determined to constitute full-blown disorders for those BPDers exhibiting both disorders.


Exactly, difficult to reconcile the two as being capable of coexisting. I think you nailed it, Uptown. One PD must be pretty dominant or much more developed than the other. That's the only way it seems possible.


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## dogman

soulpotato said:


> So the family situation put pressure on her, and then things compounded when you had to leave. I can see how the combined pressure could have her acting out a lot and being very unstable.
> 
> Have you ever tried to intervene with your family? If you agree that they have been hard on her, then would you say that they are mistreating her in some way (other than the rejection, which would be distressing even for someone without BPD)? If your wife does have BPD, the less stress she experiences, the better. Of course life is full of stress, but if it's something that can be dealt with or managed, so much the better.
> 
> Yep, BPDers can get stuck on things, even repeating the same sentences or words over and over. In an attempt to be heard or hammer things out, perhaps. Obsessiveness can be a problem, certainly, especially with unresolved issues.


I have tried to intervene often. I've actually tried too much. I've taken too much responsibility for their actions by doing this.
They've been bad to her by anyone's standards so after I warned them that I would not be around anymore if they continued, they were ok with saying that I'm dead to them because I chose my wife over them. They're ....not nice.
I've made it my business to lower her stress but in return I get maximum stress. 

I'm working on stopping the obsessive loop of thought on her part and giving her plenty of affirmation and safety.

Since our bad couple of days last week she has not left me alone for a minute outside of work so I haven't been able to read as much as I'd like yet, Even on the forum here.


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## soulpotato

Dogman, more later, but she has to understand that she needs to give back to you, too. She may not be aware that she has been draining you so badly. Have you tried asking her to do things for you, or set certain times aside for issue discussions? What is it that you need from her right now?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pidge70

Robsia said:


> I've been looking on that board that you were recommended and found this thread: Take the Pledge
> 
> The first thing that struck me was that people with BPD have a mental illness. Even if it turns out my H has DID and not BPD - it's still a mental illness. If I expect him to deal with my ASD, then I should also make allowances for him, to an extent.
> 
> In neither case is emotional abuse acceptable though. That's where personal boundaries come in. I won't deal with Mr. Nasty, but I also won't try to reason with him, because it's impossible.
> 
> It's a tough one, if we choose to stick with it.


With all due respect, BPD is NOT a "mental illness"....it is a personality disorder.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Robsia

pidge70 said:


> With all due respect, BPD is NOT a "mental illness"....it is a personality disorder.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Only repeating what the thread said.


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## PieceOfSky

I have wondered what the difference is between a disorder and other things in the DSM. And, what are the categories of other things, for things like major depression -- "mental illness"?

A-googling I will go


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## argyle

@pidge
Snap at me - definitely. I planned that. Better than her? No. I'd argue that I am crueler, on average. In her saner moments, she'd never hurt a fly. 

OTOH, sometimes motivation/communication helps. It took an arrest, felony charges, a persuasive lawyer, and 4-5 MC sessions for her to understand that physically attacking family members was (a) not legally acceptable, (b) hurt my feelings (a genuine surprise, she was pretty shocked), and (c) would result in divorce, imprisonment, and her rarely seeing her children in the future.

It took 18 months of MC, 5 MCs breaking down into screaming fits, and 4 really, really frustrating hours with written presentations and slides to convince her that the golden rule was a reasonable heuristic and that constantly violating it in an unmannerly way would offend most humans. (As in, 'Listen to me and reflect what I say.' - Interrupts the reflection every 3 seconds. Okay, your turn to talk... Interrupts and monologues at every 3rd word. $#^ $%^ $ $%^. How dare you raise your voice to me. If you're leaving a conversation, it is rude to not explain everything in a perfectly mannered voice.) It was amazing how rapidly those sentences followed each other. Of course, the occasional, 'yes, if someone hurts me, I'm perfectly justified in torturing them' didn't win much sympathy...so...it wasn't just the golden rule. On the bright side, she's honest and is committed towards working towards a happy, healthy marriage.

I tried suggesting timeouts, giving her warnings and then walking out for about 10 years, 5 MCs, communication workshops, 3 years of DBT, many books, and a lot of patience. Validation was completely useless. As far as anyone (including our MCs and her therapist) could ever tell, most of her rages were simply chosen to allow for stress relief. The remainder resulted from projection of internal flaws. And, she reacted to me walking out by being steadily more abusive in front of our children and to switching to later and later times for the sake of inconvenience. My guess is that she was getting exactly what she wanted from those rages. OTOH, one hour of fairly despicable behavior later and...
...okay, next time please take a timeout. That particular set of behaviors essentially ended that night.
...and, she actually grasped that not all communication is positive and that sometimes taking a break is a good idea. It is probably worth noting that my wife probably falls into the set of autistic people with a personality disorder. (therapists, MCs disagree...) So, there may be easier methods to communicate.

My opinion is that 7 years without snapping back or yelling was unhealthy for her. Honestly, showing and voicing anger more often was the main thing our MC's encouraged in me - I tend to get pretty robot-like when people shout at me. Mirroring her typical behavior for an hour was cruel and abusive. OTOH, I mostly regret not trying it sooner. I spent way too much time trying to behave perfectly. The improvement in both our lives was dramatic, abrupt, and surprisingly sustained. Was there a workable, less despicable way? Dunno. Probably, but I never did come up with one. The only consistently successful way I've found to help her understand social situations has been...
'So, you remember how upset and scared you felt when A did B...? Well, you're doing B to A right now, and they feel upset and scared.' Perhaps next time I'd suggest it as roleplay - but maybe not - I'm pretty convinced that she understood she was being hurtful, just enjoyed it.

I considered moving out->divorce, but figured on that as a next step.

@others
mental illness, mental disease, psychopathy (any disease of the mind; the psychological state of someone who has emotional or behavioral problems serious enough to require psychiatric intervention): Includes BPD, as far as i can tell. 

Some people may distinguish between disorders believed to have a primarily physical component (schizophrenia, autism) as opposed to a primarily mental component (personality disorders). MRI (IMO, really not settled) indicates that the distinction between mental and physical is not terribly distinct, although there is merit in those classifications. Dunno. Albeit, the major practical distinction is that personality disorders are less amenable to medication.

Regarding NPD, assuming that BPDs have NPD out of the box and advising blanket treatment would be a terrible idea. OTOH, given 30%+ comorbidity, assuming that a BPD *doesn't* have NPD and advising blanket treatment is also a terrible idea. I suspect that advising against limits and consequences in the case of people who've already tried validation for an extended period is a downright harmful choice. This is part of the motivation for DSM V, which basically moved from 'distinct disorders' towards 'this person has a terrible personality, and here are their dysfunctional traits.' I don't really believe that the dominant/traits thing is universally applicable. In my wife's case, she met all of the diagnostic criteria for BPD and only 5 of the criteria for NPD, but the NPD traits were a lot less controllable and more continuous. So, dunno, somewhere in the middle I'd say. In terms of love, the argument I've heard is that both diagnostic BPDs and NPDs are sufficiently damaged to be incapable of love. In my wife's case, I'd go with our last MC's assessment, which is that she cares for me as much as she can, but that she's not really capable of sufficient empathy/theory of mind to love.* 

My guess (never having dated a straight BPD or straight NPD) is that the admixture is more toxic. Straight BPDs often possess enough empathy to not attack you with a bat, abuse your children (someone I knew) to terrorize you into silence, or repeatedly strangle you unconscious (someone else I knew, albeit he might have been ASPD...and a policeman). Those people all show strong BPD traits. Straight NPDs are often emotionally distant and occasionally abusive pillars of the community...possibly even exceptionally good CEOs. Mixed tendencies result in people who...are terrified of abandonment, think in black and white, have no problem with harming other people to defend their self, need constant validation of unrealistic self-image, and extreme problems with emotional control. Oh, and who are triggered by (a) distance (less than 3 hours quality time) from their spouse, (b) closeness to their spouse (more than 2 hours quality time), (c) rehashing old problems with their spouse, (d) being cut off when rehashing old problems with their spouse.

My experience is that there exists a set of 'core defects' in some people that predisposes them to using defenses that are diagnostic criteria for BPD and NPD, largely depending on circumstance. So, self-harm pops up when they feel helpless. Abandonment pops up when people leave. Constant demands for adoration pop up constantly to deal with insecurity. Low empathy tends to result in extremely abusive behavior towards anyone vulnerable. And, behaviors are chosen in ways that 'work' for the person involved.

The end result is that these BPDs become extremely abusive in long-term R/S, as the partners tend to adapt in ways that empower the BPD to diffuse emotional issues with an abuse high. And, people try validating these abusive rages for some number of years before recognizing that validation just doesn't work and that their partners genuinely feel no distress over hurting them.

Now, you could just call these people NPD - but it doesn't fit that well - because they're absolutely terrified of abandonment.

Limits do help - to some extent. If you can leave early enough when the BPD becomes abusive. When abuse becomes less effective, there's a shift towards more BPD-like behaviors.

Overall though, my experience has been that it is more important to end blatant, repetitive, abuse than it is to validate emotions - although the line there can be pretty gray. My guess, which could easily be wrong, is that dogman is slogging through endless, abusive, hopeless conversations instead of sleeping - and that R/S improvement has already plateaued because his wife is getting exactly what she needs from those conversations. (I should be clear...validating emotions is great when someone is actually trying to communicate a need...)

I agree that abuse is toxic to R/S. However, the only thing that worked for us in terms of abusive behavior was really firm division of responsibilities/consequences, and a choice on my part to hurt my wife (by, eg, abandoning her) whenever she engaged in abusive behavior. Communicating anger really clearly also helped.*** I guess my decision was to acknowledge that she's crazy and sometimes needs help processing - but to prioritize validation below boundary maintenance (abuse) and my own needs (sleep) - even if maintaining those boundaries hurt her nearly unbearably.

I also believe (as I fell into that trap) that it is easy to fall into an unhealthy 'therapeutic' R/S, where the spouse starts behaving like a full-time therapist instead of a human being.

@dogman
I'd be careful about the in-laws. My wife (a) engaged in behavior that resulted in them not liking her much (...threats involving burning down their house), (b) picked continual fights demanding that I take her side, and (c) later admitted that she really only switched to in-law conversations when she was upset and wanted to fight (say anything**, it'll all end in screaming and threats of divorce). And the truth is that the in-laws made no difference - she was perfectly capable of finding other stresses. My eventual approach was to accept that she was completely in the wrong, that we'd have terrible arguments whenever she brought it up, and just confront her with my view of reality and ask if she needed to fight. And occasionally offer to convene a family conference. At first, there were gigantic rages, but we slept quicker. Later, she started listening.

It is entirely possible that she is entirely, or at least mostly, at fault and has simply persuaded you by badgering you for 20 years. It is also possible that your family is obnoxious. Both may be true.

Also, soul mentioned something useful. Staying with a BPD is an enormous red flag for mental illness or personality issues, even if you don't pick one up by staying. So, it makes sense to look into that. There are tests for...codependence, narcissism, autism, depression, bipolar, schizophrenia, and other personality disorders. (not that reliable, but cheap) Personally, I test lower than average for most things excepting autism and schizoid PD and modestly high for those two. One thing you can't (AFAIK) test for, but that seems to pop up a lot in people staying with PD people is perfectionism. It is worthwhile examining whether or not you are concentrated on behaving perfectly rather than honestly.

Or, you can just ask your therapist's opinion. But, either way, if you can identify parts of yourself that are crazy - those are great, easy opportunities to improve both yourself and your R/S. Much easier than hoping someone else will change. Or, possibly, learn enough to move onto something better.

I guess the overall choice was to stop trying to 'win' - by avoiding rages and behaving in a saintly manner and accept that behaving normally was more healthy in the long-term but would result in rages.

--Argyle

*On some level, she cares deeply, and tries hard. And it has to be hard to be in a marriage when you can't really understand people as separate human beings. So, I honor that.

**Basically, a choose your own adventure from a really dark place.

***One thing I learned, more cultural than crazy, is that my line for abusive is drawn lower than my wife's line for communication. So, she'll basically not even register anything below, '#$ off and die!!! I will kill you unless you get out of my face now. Why are you still here.' And, I'll start feeling uneasy around - 'I'm busy. Go away.'


----------



## Uptown

soulpotato said:


> One PD must be pretty dominant or much more developed than the other. That's the only way it seems possible.


I agree, SoulPotato. I note that, with PDs, not all traits are equal. With BPD, for example, the essential trait is emotional instability. If a person is not unstable, he cannot have strong traits of BPD. Likewise, the essential trait with NPD and AsPD seems to be the inability to love (which is why they view people as objects to be used). 

Hence, the only way I can imagine a person having both BPD and NPD at a full-blown level is when that person is both unstable and unable to love. That is just my guess, however, because I've never seen it explained anywhere.


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## dogman

Without going into details that can be confusing there are 3 basic things that I think all other problems with my wife stem from.
I sat and looked back over our history and these are the driving force behind events.

1. Emotionally unstable/unpredictable
2. Inability to handle stress on any level
3. Perfectionist expectations

I could even simplify this more and say that the combination of 1 and 3 cause the stress that she can't handle.


So far reading the post from all of you and some of the suggested reading has been hugely enlightening. It hasn't made me more hopeful though.

Thanks everyone.


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## john117

With enough experience BPD behavior is very predictable. BPD's live a relatively simple life so it is not difficult to figure out what their expectations are and precondition them as needed. Removing opportunities for flare ups also works well. 

Think of it as mental chess. Nothing to it. My daughters and I have made a game of predicting mom's behavior.

What works in managing and reducing visits to crazy town for us is simple. Set strict behavior boundaries and respond in kind to any crazy town visits. Instead of validating each and every thought, point out that there are differences and leave it at that. 

Btw, the famous BPD board was of little help to us since the idea of head on confrontation until the BPD understands what the boundaries are seemed a fit off the wall to them. They're more into validation and acceptance, or bailing out, not direct confrontation.


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## soulpotato

I think that while there's some predictability to what will set your BPDer off (perceived rejection, abandonment, etc), everyone seems to have a bit of a different focus and way of presenting. Makes sense since there are so many different combinations of symptoms (or lack thereof) that each individual BPDer may have. That said, certain techniques of handling situations may or may not work. "Validating the valid" doesn't mean you are saying you agree or believe that something is accurate, necessarily. But validating remains one thing that seems very important for BPDers across the board. It does need to be matched with other things however, like good boundaries. 

There's an art to instituting and maintaining boundaries, too. You don't use boundaries in a punitive, controlling, or inconsistent fashion, but too many people think that that's what boundaries are. Also, they're supposed to be declared calmly and with compassion. 

I know for sure that I've read about certain techniques in books that I thought were a bad idea to use with some BPDers, even if they might be okay to use with others. It really is an individual thing, and you've got to make sure you recognize where your BPDer matches or departs from those things if you're going to avoid doing more damage (or having them end up in the hospital). It's definitely not something to play around with.


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## soulpotato

dogman said:


> Without going into details that can be confusing there are 3 basic things that I think all other problems with my wife stem from.
> I sat and looked back over our history and these are the driving force behind events.
> 
> 1. Emotionally unstable/unpredictable
> 2. Inability to handle stress on any level
> 3. Perfectionist expectations
> 
> I could even simplify this more and say that the combination of 1 and 3 cause the stress that she can't handle.
> 
> 
> So far reading the post from all of you and some of the suggested reading has been hugely enlightening. It hasn't made me more hopeful though.
> 
> Thanks everyone.


Dogman, what are the chances of her getting into therapy? Have you looked around for someone who does DBT or runs a DBT group? Even if your wife doesn't have BPD, DBT can help others with emotional management, not just BPDers. 

In order for this to be sustainable for you, she has to get to the point where she becomes more self-aware and starts doing that necessary work on herself.


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## Robsia

john117 said:


> With enough experience BPD behavior is very predictable. BPD's live a relatively simple life so it is not difficult to figure out what their expectations are and precondition them as needed. Removing opportunities for flare ups also works well.
> 
> Think of it as mental chess. Nothing to it. My daughters and I have made a game of predicting mom's behavior.
> 
> .


But isn't this the whole walking on eggshells thing, tiptoeing around, trying to figure out how to behave so as not to set off the pwBPD, when the things that set them off are actually perfectly normal and wouldn't bother a non-pwBPD?


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## Uptown

pidge70 said:


> With all due respect, BPD is NOT a "mental illness"....it is a personality disorder.


Pidge, the psychiatric community generally considers BPD to be an illness but NOT A DISEASE. Whereas "illness" implies an impairment of _function_ (e.g., behavior), "disease" implies an impairment of both function and body _structure_ (e.g., something shows up in an MRI, xray, or other medical test). That distinction is explained in the style guidance for medical journals at Condition, Disease, Disorder | amastyleinsider. It also is explained in the _Journal of the American Medical Association_ at JAMA Network | JAMA | Miscellany.

As to whether BPD constitutes an illness, the leading national psychiatric institutions say that it does. See, e.g., the NIMH (National Institute of Mental Health) at NIMH · Borderline Personality Disorder. Also see National Education Alliance for Borderline Personality Disorder at Borderline Personality Disorder: A Most Misunderstood Illness. You also will find that the websites of leading hospitals -- such as the Mayo Clinic -- also refer to BPD as a mental illness.

There nonetheless is a small part of the psychiatric community that disagrees with this terminology. Perhaps the most vocal is psychologist Philip Hickey, who argues that BPD is not a mental illness. Indeed, he argues that all mental dysfunctions -- even the clinical disorders such as bipolar -- are disorders but are not mental illnesses. See http://www.behaviorismandmentalhealt...not-illnesses/.


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## john117

Robsia said:


> But isn't this the whole walking on eggshells thing, tiptoeing around, trying to figure out how to behave so as not to set off the pwBPD, when the things that set them off are actually perfectly normal and wouldn't bother a non-pwBPD?


What you describe is part of it. Predicting and managing some of the issues before they escalate, behind the scenes, Wizard of Oz like. That removes some if the issues.

The second part is head on confrontation when a visit to crazy town inevitably occurs. No leaving the room, no nice guy/gal, no sugarcoat. They need to understand how their behavior is unacceptable and what the consequences are if they act up.

The third part is stern and repeated reminders of what the expected behaviors are... Just like telling a 4 year old that we don't just grab the candy from the shelf ahead of time.

Doing a lot of active confrontation and reminders of expected behavior and taking off the table any trivial issues, has cut down crazy town visits from weekly to once or twice a year if that...


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## john117

In simple terms you have to make them understand that the consequences of bad behavior will be considerably more severe than the benefits of bad behavior ... Do it over a long period of time and depending on many things it can work.


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## john117

Duplicate post thanks iPhone


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## pidge70

I seriously despise the term "crazy town".


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## dogman

Robsia said:


> But isn't this the whole walking on eggshells thing, tiptoeing around, trying to figure out how to behave so as not to set off the pwBPD, when the things that set them off are actually perfectly normal and wouldn't bother a non-pwBPD?



My thoughts exactly.


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## john117

As much as I despise walking on eggshells I guess.

The spirited Dr. Mrs BPD had a midrange eruption yesterday when the billing clerk at the dentist took more than a couple minutes to come up with a proper estimate of fees. She then proceeded to have another eruption at her daughter when she was asked to tone it down. Unfortunately I was not there. 

Please feel free to suggest an appropriate and less offending adjective-noun pair to describe this in another way.


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## dogman

I do agree that normally when you confront someone about their behavior, it can be very productive and will eventually lead to the "right" behavior. But...what I see is more like trying to make a person who is deathly afraid of heights to the point of being physically frozen, logically see that they are wrong and then not be frozen by that fear.
From my experience the anxiety that my wife experiences makes her completely unreasonable and need an outlet at all costs.
Another example would that often times a drowning person will almost drown a rescuer by trying to climb up on them to get to safety. Explaining to that drowning person that they should just relax and not claw at the rescuer, would be very difficult. 

This is the hard part of confrontation and hard boundaries.

When I think about the irrational nature of how she feels, I become a little more patient but no less frustrated.


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## john117

No logic needed for a lot of this - I learned how to swim when my favorite aunt literally tossed me in the sea. Same aunt taught me how to ride a bicycle - you can guess how -... 

Anxiety is probably easier to deal with - with conditioning and information. Try dealing with lack of trust and anger, the favorite BPD mainstays...

The key is to not let things escalate by constant reminders that escalating is unacceptable. It is not easy by far. It is like dealing with a misbehaving child, and Heavens know I had those too. 

Being able to predict behavior is nice - it's like a game. You draw out the game tree, prune the no-go branches, and deal with the important ones. You don't avoid the situations by walking on eggshells, you are prepared for them and are not caught by surprise when the most trivial things cause an eruption.

You can't always win, of course. A year ago we were about to board a cruiseship to Alaska. I left the family at the cruise port to return the rental car. It got 'cold' (for my wife anything under 80 is cold) and while I was on a cab alone returning she went bezerk fearing she will 'get cold'. Realizing that this was her anxiety of 'abandonment' and about to start a nice vacation I did not go into lecture mode, but cases like those are really good teaching moments of what behavior is expected.

Yea, it sucks that I have to teach a mid 50's woman basic manners (or basic logic, i.e. moving 20 feet to the inside of the terminal building), but that's the luck of the draw for y'all. 

Pick your fights, stay the course, and always, at the risk of sounding like a kindergarten teacher, always provide suggestions, expectations, and heck, even praise.


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## john117

Today's visit to 'Illogicon' was well overdue - I committed the near deadly sin of not including the very active Dr. Mrs. BPD's sports bra and shorts on today's laundry load... A few dozen Decibels later she was convinced of her errant ways...


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## dogman

john117 said:


> Today's visit to 'Illogicon' was well overdue - I committed the near deadly sin of not including the very active Dr. Mrs. BPD's sports bra and shorts on today's laundry load... A few dozen Decibels later she was convinced of her errant ways...


I hear ya! We got side tracked today for an hour, roughly. Ugh! It's all good now but the loop continues.


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## argyle

...john's right. I try to use crazytown to describe behavior that my wife's therapist recommended be dealt with by involuntary institutionalization. It is a convenient shorthand. I do think it can be overused when describing a mentally ill person's tendency towards maladaptive behavior. Maybe 5150 would be better than crazytown?

@dogman
...in terms of hope, we went from sub-quarterly physical violent altercations, weekly 20+ hour abusive 'discussions', and nigh-continual looping conversations wherein my wife would seek validation for the fact that all of her issues were related to everyone else in the world being jealous and insane....

...to...in 3 years...
...biweekly 'intense' discussions - mostly with my wife asking me to hear her out and later explain what person X is thinking. 
...and ?quarterly? abusive screaming fits - usually prompted by significant stress. Those are predictable enough that I've simply taken to dropping off the kids and starting the discussion myself. We haven't had ?any? crazytown visits this year. (knocks on wood) (although we came pretty close during a medication switch)

So, there's some hope.

I think there's a tension between hurting the BPDer, as nearly any attempt to curb abusive behavior is equivalent to throwing an arachnophobe into a vat of spiders, and curbing learned abusive behavior. IMHO, even though there are many things your wife can't handle, denying her the chance to fail is evil.

If you let her abuse you as an outlet for her anxiety, she won't stop. Why would she? If you're no longer available as an outlet, she'll probably start by hurting herself, and then likely move onto figuring out better ways of dealing with anxiety. And, my wife never started working on having more efficient conversations until I started putting time limits on our talks. (albeit, that plateaued reasonably quickly...we're both bad at brevity...but...at least it stopped the continual subject switching...)

My wife started out with her fists...switched to insults and rages after being arrested...and switched to singing, timeouts, a diary, asking for help, et cetera... after realizing that I was capable of responding to her rages in ways that left her feeling worse. (really not that hard...when you're full of self-hatred and insecurity...simply having the base motivation for your self-hatred explained to you, quite calmly, is more than enough to discourage repeat performances.) In terms of risk, BPDs have a high suicide rate regardless - and fostering delusions probably increases the risk.

My experience is that it is fairly reliable to differentiate between her picking a fight and her disregulating because she's applying black-and-white thinking to a minor issue. For the first, I incline towards provoking a rage by telling her that I won't discuss things until she's calmed down because she's obviously picking a fight, explaining that her rage is simple mental illness and that I'm not going to respond to it, giving her an opportunity to calm down, and afterwards discussing whatever thing was bugging her. 

For the genuine worries, I tend towards listening intently, validating emotions and any opinions she has that are at least mildly reality-based, waiting for her to calm down, warning her that I won't fight if she asks my opinion, and then giving it to her straight.

I also visited BPDFamily, and found that their recommendations were pretty good for people dealing with BPDers who were acting inwards. (cutting themselves, suicidal...) And pretty useless for acting-out BPDers. (physical and verbal abuse) 

Regarding walking on eggshells, I think structuring the environment to minimize stress for the BPD is pretty reasonable. (eg...my wife won't have a competitive job) That's a realistic accommodation. OTOH, confrontation seems healthy (probably depends on the BPD), so I, eg, currently run a daily family meeting where we review current family issues. That's basically 5 min of...
...okay, here were Argyle's commitments...they're done.
and 55 min of...
...okay, here are BPDw's commitments...anything done? Nope. Let's go through each one, review why you failed, review the consequences, and let you come up with a revised action plan.

It has the side benefit that she's stopped complaining that I'm not involved enough in her life...and the daily mild confrontation lets her practice healthier skills.

--Argyle


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## john117

Argyle, you have my deepest respects. It took me a few years to figure the above out as well. The only saving grace is that BPD's have fairly simple thought processes and are easily "pointed" to the right direction when all other behaviors become more, ehem, disadvantageous. 

The funny (?) part here is that despite the last few years our relationship souring, I really have not given much thought of splitting ways with the lovely Dr. Mrs. BPD because of her behavior. To a great extent I feel like the spouse of someone who has a serious illness. I'm not walk out and leave her to fend for herself here (not a good outcome) or return to her birth country (even worse since the last couple of, ehem, rulers )

It's a project, a relationship fixer upper, a challenge that no psychologist (*) would walk away from...

(* even a cognitive )


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## john117

It is interesting to notice that the lack of frequent visits to Illogicon during a relatively peaceful period (*) seems to build pent up pressure for a no holds barred eventual visit over the most trivial item. It's as if there is some kind of illogicounter clicking away and after a few kilo-illogicums have been accumulated it's meltdown regardless of reason.

(*) It is this "not quite normal ever" feeling that causes considerable stress to the members of a BPD's family, not the actual events themselves.


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## argyle

...that's the main reason I prefer stomping on eggshells.

...if I annoy my wife on a daily basis, the worst outcome is an occasional small fight that stays inside her emotional control regime. 

...if I tiptoe for an extended period,...um..., then the crazytown visit has, in the past, included edged weapons and the police.

...kind of a shame, really, by nature I'm more the sort who gets up early to cook breakfast in bed after hugging someone to sleep. But, I'm stuck lecturing my wife on how she messed up XYZ and telling her to fetch me dinner.

--Argyle


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## COguy

argyle said:


> ...that's the main reason I prefer stomping on eggshells.
> 
> ...if I annoy my wife on a daily basis, the worst outcome is an occasional small fight that stays inside her emotional control regime.
> 
> ...if I tiptoe for an extended period,...um..., then the crazytown visit has, in the past, included edged weapons and the police.
> 
> ...kind of a shame, really, by nature I'm more the sort who gets up early to cook breakfast in bed after hugging someone to sleep. But, I'm stuck lecturing my wife on how she messed up XYZ and telling her to fetch me dinner.
> 
> --Argyle


Sounds like a great marriage...way better then having a normal, healthy one.


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## john117

COguy said:


> Sounds like a great marriage...way better then having a normal, healthy one.


More mentally challenging at least. But hey, that's the luck of the draw, not much different than finding out your spouse of 3 years has a nasty chronic illness or condition that needs serious attention for life...


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## dogman

I'm tired of adapting and "doing" this and "doing" that. I'm tired and I don't want to have to do more all he time.

Everything I read is more stuff I have to do. Tactical communication and basically trying to live with a very difficult, unforgiving, self focused person looking to blame me for all the problems in her life. She checks out and a crazy person checks in..there's no way to live harmoniously with that.

Sorry for the rant..Im running on no sleep and feel like sh!t.


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## argyle

Sounds like last night sucked. Sorry to hear it.

Seriously, best method is to stop trying so hard, with 1 caveat.
(0) Either stay or go. If you leave, goto 6. Make that choice, possibly using a coin flip, and then stick to it for at least 3 months.
(1) Spend a bit of time figuring out if you're doing crazy stuff. From what you've said...the main crazy stuff you're doing involves sticking around and listening to her.
(2) Stop doing the crazy. That means, if she keeps you awake - you either leave or call the police and let her sleep it off in jail. A hotel room is usually easier, but a jail cell is more convincing.
(3) Relax. Behave normally*, instead of tiptoeing around to avoid arguments. Unless she offers rational compromises, don't give in when she complains about behavior XYZ. (Within the normal bounds of marital obligations.)
(4) Wait. Her behavior will worsen dramatically, then improve.
(5) Goto 0.
(6) Buy Splitting, find a divorce lawyer, document all possessions, document abuse, leave when you're ready.

--Argyle
*Since you're married to a BPD, you should try to behave _normally_, and not the way you personally usually behave. People who stay with BPDs really do tend to be crazy.


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## argyle

Sounds like last night sucked. Sorry to hear it.

Seriously, best method is to stop trying so hard, with 1 caveat.
(0) Either stay or go. If you leave, goto 6. Make that choice, possibly using a coin flip, and then stick to it for at least 3 months.
(1) Spend a bit of time figuring out if you're doing crazy stuff. From what you've said...the main crazy stuff you're doing involves sticking around and listening to her.
(2) Stop doing the crazy. That means, if she keeps you awake - you either leave or call the police and let her sleep it off in jail. A hotel room is usually easier, but a jail cell is more convincing.
(3) Relax. Behave normally*, instead of tiptoeing around to avoid arguments. Unless she offers rational compromises, don't give in when she complains about behavior XYZ. (Within the normal bounds of marital obligations.)
(4) Wait. Her behavior will worsen dramatically, then improve.**
(5) Goto 0.
(6) Buy Splitting, find a divorce lawyer, document all possessions, document abuse, leave when you're ready. Bear in mind that BPD divorces often take over a year.
(7) Sigh in relief. Get on with your life. Therapy, for PTSD if nothing else.

--Argyle
*Since you're married to a BPD, you should try to behave _normally_, and not the way you personally usually behave. People who stay with BPDs really do tend to be crazy, that craziness makes the R/S even worse than it would normally be.
Normally is not the same as either perfectly or bastardly.

**Immediate improvement to something comparable to sustained functioning in your relatively early R/S may be expected. Beyond that, if she's never functioned above a given level, there will be a large learning curve.


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## john117

Crazy? I resemble that remark 

As I said, for me it's all a big science project. I came home to find the feisty Dr. Mrs. BPD raging about her offshore team members who can't do math to save their lives. So, I put on my best 90 Decibel voice (Pavarotti with a different accent) and shut her down. My girls were contemplating getting me an Indian attire (looks like dentist-wear) to irritate the good Dr.


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## mymistake

argyle said:


> Sounds like last night sucked. Sorry to hear it.
> 
> Seriously, best method is to stop trying so hard, with 1 caveat.
> (0) Either stay or go. If you leave, goto 6. Make that choice, possibly using a coin flip, and then stick to it for at least 3 months.
> (1) Spend a bit of time figuring out if you're doing crazy stuff. From what you've said...the main crazy stuff you're doing involves sticking around and listening to her.
> (2) Stop doing the crazy. That means, if she keeps you awake - you either leave or call the police and let her sleep it off in jail. A hotel room is usually easier, but a jail cell is more convincing.
> (3) Relax. Behave normally*, instead of tiptoeing around to avoid arguments. Unless she offers rational compromises, don't give in when she complains about behavior XYZ. (Within the normal bounds of marital obligations.)
> (4) Wait. Her behavior will worsen dramatically, then improve.**
> (5) Goto 0.
> (6) Buy Splitting, find a divorce lawyer, document all possessions, document abuse, leave when you're ready. Bear in mind that BPD divorces often take over a year.
> (7) Sigh in relief. Get on with your life. Therapy, for PTSD if nothing else.
> 
> --Argyle
> *Since you're married to a BPD, you should try to behave _normally_, and not the way you personally usually behave. People who stay with BPDs really do tend to be crazy, that craziness makes the R/S even worse than it would normally be.
> Normally is not the same as either perfectly or bastardly.
> 
> Thanks for this, Argyle. I've spent many years wondering if I'm the "crazy" one. After researching and reading these threads I am realizing my H has a lot of the traits of BPD and I haven't helped his or my mental health by walking on eggshells for years. I just want out now and filed for divorce a month ago and started IC today. I know I have a lot of work to do on myself also and I can't blame only him for our failure. In the past month the "splitting" has been continuous. We are living in the same house and I never know who I'm coming home to.
> I appreciate reading everyones experiences with BPD. It seems to be much more common than I would have guessed.


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## argyle

...sounds like you're more clueful than I am.

...I spent a ton of years believing my wife and diligently trying when she told me that I was at fault and needed to change XYZ. It took a series of MC's getting irritated to the point of shouting fits at her for me to pick up on the 'maybe the problems here aren't quite 50/50.'

...safe journeys and best wishes. Honestly, my divorce plan involved completely leaving the house. I can't imagine living with a continually triggered BPD for long enough to get a divorce. Please take care of yourself, somehow. And, yes, IC, remember, many people who leave BPDs search out other BPDs.

--Argyle


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## ThreeStrikes

john117 said:


> More mentally challenging at least. *But hey, that's the luck of the draw, not much different than finding out your spouse of 3 years has a nasty chronic illness or condition that needs serious attention for life...*


I do not agree with the bold statement. Tolerating a relationship with an emotionally unsound and disordered person can not be equivocated with caring for a physically ill, emotionally sound person.

It's not even close.


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## john117

Different people have different tolerance levels. Also, I am referring to the chance of getting either a physical or mental issue spouse, not necessarily the difficulty of addressing the issues arising from their care. Some people will stick around till the end, some will bail.

Also, physical illness tends to have well established support networks and treatment protocols. Not quite as much of that with many mental disorders incl BPD.

The two situations of coping with one or the other issue are not comparable, but the chances of having to deal with one or the other are comparable. How one deals with one or the other is a different story.


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## argyle

I dunno. From my perspective, there's a choice - whether or not one stays faithful to their marriage vows.  That part is pretty similar. (Although, if you aren't married, with kids, my personal advice is that, usually, running for the hills without leaving a forwarding address is a great plan.)

Beyond that, the similarity is pretty gray.

Starting with the beginning, for the majority, physical illnesses start sometime during the marriage while mental illnesses are usually apparent before marriage. (Albeit, many people aren't exactly trained to recognize the crazy...)

In terms of cost, dealing with physical illness, overall, is relatively easy to deal with without corroding the soul. Dealing with mental illness, particularly personality disorders is harder. However, mental illness tends to come on a spectrum, as does physical illness - and some of the mentally ill are easier to live with than some of the physically ill.

In terms of worth, it is often, maybe even usually, true that the partner of a BPD enables and worsens their illness. So, staying is often harmful to both parties. It is often also significantly worse for any children involved.

In terms of prognosis, in a relatively healthy environment, BPD is fairly treatable and the prognosis is reasonably good for those BPDs who enter treatment. Within 3 years, a reasonable fraction of BPDs make significant progress. There are a lot of physical illnesses with considerably worse prognosis.

I think the choice has to depend on the people involved. I'm fine with basically anyone who takes off running and the fraction of people who stay while trying to avoid enabling their partners.

Staying is hard.** It is harder when you start trying to be healthier - because there are a lot of bad patterns available - and because the BPD will usually request and try to enforce some combination of those patterns. The most common is the enabling codependent (heck, I've picked up my wife's sleeping pills, and even ordered her extra), followed closely by the punching bag (bruises suck, btw, and Stockholm syndrome syndrome in women is scary*), followed by the 2 BPDs for the price of one (not much personal experience here, but it isn't that rare), followed by a spectrum of controlling behaviors. There, the most common is probably the delusional perfectionist (I will validate every time and avoid fights and she won't be BPD. It'll help if I improve...), followed by the 24 hour therapist (gosh, understanding will help, I'll cure her), followed by the abusive narcissist (I'll hurt her until she stops). All in varying degrees. The thing is...to a very limited extent...each of those patterns is human and probably even helpful - so it isn't even like completely avoiding any of them is healthy either.

--Argyle

*Eg., a women who's extremely upset over her husband's physical abuse of her children (designed to intimidate her into shutting up), but scared to divorce and potentially leave him alone with them. But whose husband rapes and forcibly impregnates her. And who then starts talking about how much they're in love.
**Most therapists won't treat BPDs. So, professionals, paid 200 USD hourly, won't deal with these patients because the frustration of a therapeutic R/S just isn't worth it. This is basically a building where the firemen are staying out, and across the street, and the partner is staying in the fire.


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## ShockwaveRider

dogman said:


> I'm tired of adapting and "doing" this and "doing" that. I'm tired and I don't want to have to do more all he time.
> 
> Everything I read is more stuff I have to do. Tactical communication and basically trying to live with a very difficult, unforgiving, self focused person looking to blame me for all the problems in her life. She checks out and a crazy person checks in..there's no way to live harmoniously with that.
> 
> Sorry for the rant..Im running on no sleep and feel like sh!t.


Doooooooood......will you stop living my life?

WAIT.....next you'll get divorced, be emotionally devastated for 5-1/2 years (and become a sexual cripple) only to slowly recover at which point your ex will develop a terminal illness and ask to come back home and die with you at her side.

Yep, that's the last 21 years of my life.

Escape.

Now.

Before it's too late.

Shockwave


----------



## john117

A lot of BPD symptoms can be explained away as cultural differences, personality differences (exactly how normal is a PhD student in math those days? :scratchhead the stress of being a stranger in a strange land, and so on. 

And all the texts in the world say BPD does not just 'happen'. Well, some warning flags were there, but when a lot of bad things happened within one year or two and we went from a few visits to Illogicon a year to a couple a week, you have to wonder about the wisdom of the DSM-IV founding fathers there... By the time I found my copy she was batting 8 out of 9... 

Do I enable her? yes and no. I keep reminding her what normal is, and often it works. But I'm not validating her thoughts, far from it, most of the time I shoot down her validation fantasies and she knows it. I provide a more complex, more accurate model of the world to her black and white one.

I have cared for sick people - my parents - and worked in a hospital doing medical research for a while. The patients have a specific condition, a black box. You do X, you get Y. You do Z, you get P. And so on. It is very deterministic. BPD is anything but. Physical illness is also more permanent in terms of symptoms, while BPD is very temporal...

I, too, am guilty of some enabling codependence. But for every one enabling behavior I use ten teaching moments to show her what reality is. She has a fairly simple, black and white model view of the world, and the model can be woefully inadequate for adult level interaction at times. But under a good environment she can thrive. She is working from home now, and we avoid all the drama of office politics. The only side effect is that now we have become the office, and she works 12-14 hours a day or more...


----------



## dogman

ShockwaveRider said:


> Doooooooood......will you stop living my life?
> 
> WAIT.....next you'll get divorced, be emotionally devastated for 5-1/2 years (and become a sexual cripple) only to slowly recover at which point your ex will develop a terminal illness and ask to come back home and die with you at her side.
> 
> Yep, that's the last 21 years of my life.
> 
> Escape.
> 
> Now.
> 
> Before it's too late.
> 
> Shockwave



Thanks, 
I'm just surviving for now, I think she's convinced me that there's something wrong with me so I have to get back to neutral as soon as I can to get anywhere with this.


All of you responders have great info and I appreciate the input, it gives me a lot to consider.

My wife's mother has been diagnosed with cancer so we have some extra stress at the moment and I believe that's part of the anxiety my wife is directing at me this time. 
It's always something that is misdirected...


----------



## COguy

john117 said:


> More mentally challenging at least. But hey, that's the luck of the draw, not much different than finding out your spouse of 3 years has a nasty chronic illness or condition that needs serious attention for life...


Except it's nothing like that.

Being with a mentally healthy person who "gets" cancer is not anything like getting emotionally attached to someone who used your own weaknesses to develop a dishonest attraction to you.

BPD isn't a disease, it's a disorder. It's a way of thinking. Someone doesn't "catch" it. There's no pill you can take to get rid of it. In a bizarro world, they could be the normal one and you could be the one who had a thought disorder.

You get in a long-term relationship with someone with BPD because of your own relationship issues. Namely, poor boundaries and a level of codependence. Not recognizing the red flags up front is all a symptom of that.

The very fact that you look at staying with that person as the right thing to do, or that you should care for them as someone with a chronic illness, just goes to show your level of codependency. You're perpetuating the "victim" cycle and enabling your partner to continue their act. Your partner does not need you to stay in the marriage for their benefit, at the cost of your own sanity.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

COguy said:


> The very fact that you look at staying with that person as the right thing to do, or that you should care for them as someone with a chronic illness, just goes to show your level of codependency. You're perpetuating the "victim" cycle and enabling your partner to continue their act. Your partner does not need you to stay in the marriage for their benefit, at the cost of your own sanity.


:iagree:

You can't stay with a BPDer who isn't actively seeking help and you can't be with one who won't even recognize they have a PD.Which,sadly,is most of them.

I mean you can stay but only if you want to lose your family,friends,mind...ya know...the little things.


----------



## john117

If you have a person who likely can't function on their own without help, while you're as independent (of her and in general) as it gets, how's that codependency?

Every few years my wife goes off to her home country for a month. Best time ever for the rest of us, no sweaty palms, the works. It would not bother me one bit if she stayed there for good. She knows that, and that is one more thing that plays into her thinking. I also know that she knows she can't function without me, not in her current capacity (she does not adjust well) So, it is to her advantage to maintain her behavior to what is socially less awkward and more socially acceptable. 

Tolerance (for practical reasons i.e. $$$) is not codependence. Not any more than dealing with a child is codependency. I have excellent boundaries and use them where and when needed... 

Also, you may not get BPD the way you get bronchitis but it could lie dormant with minor traits showing on and off infrequently, easily explainable away at first, until some trigger makes things much more stressful and irrational behavior caused by stress becomes common. 

The bottom line is that you write down what you put in and what you get out of a relationship, be it emotional, physical, financial, and otherwise. For now, for me it is barely in the positive but it is positive. For her, I'm not so sure. Her value system is a bit messed up and I'm sure she values things different than me. But she knows the balance and what she has to gain or lose if we split versus what I have to gain or lose. It's a matter of options. I have lots, she has few. That's all that matters.

I figure we did well for 25 years with only a few traits flaring up infrequently. Then, as the book says, a series of unfortunate events happened; some predictable, some not. Someone with a normal coping mechanism could probably manage it a lot better but in her case it did not happen; she does not compartmentalize well so things spilled over...

Decades ago I saw how my parents handled stress; my dad was the stoic non emotional army officer type, my mom the very emotional type. He outlived her by 25 years... No brainer which role model to choose. Plus, living alone from a young age really teaches you to depend on nobody but yourself. Stranger in a strange land and all that. 

Heck, even cognitive psych students take a behavioral psych class or two, so it's not like we don't know what we're up against...


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## argyle

People can do practically anything. A lot of choices are foolish. I consider unconditional staying foolish. I consider a rapid change to less enabling behavior, followed by evaluation of the R/S to be only slightly more foolish than running for the hills.

I'd be careful of assuming codependency in long-term BPD R/S. On one hand, normal people don't end up staying with BPDs. OTOH, there seem to be a bunch of personality configurations (check out the tests on BPDFamily) that tend to show up more often than you'd expect. If I recall correctly (senility...), INTJ and INTP are common. So are moderately schizoid people. And either people with high or unusually low levels of codependency. Oh, and people with either BPD or NPD traits. That, and people with a strong history of emotional abuse, particularly children of BPDs (many of these children are sufficiently disturbed that a R/S with a BPD may be as normal as it gets). There are also persistent rumors that an unusual proportion of Aspies marry BPDs - those rumors seem reasonable in my experience.

My assessment is that people who stay with BPDs tend to fall into the 'excessively caring', 'emotionally detached or unobservant', or the 'horrible childhood' camps. I personally didn't have much difficulty with my wife until we had children - as it was pretty simple to ignore her and leave her lying in bed for a few months at a time. Dental bills were a mess though. So, probably not exactly a caretaker relationship.

OTOH, the normal reaction to crazy behavior is to just shake your head and walk away. Marriage? Whatever. Almost by definition, nearly everyone who stays with a BPD has the issue of abnormal boundaries.

I will mention that Asperger's, surprisingly to me, is a moderate risk factor (10X or so?) for BPD. There tend to be 2 sorts of Aspies (Unwritten Rules of Social R/S, Grandin...not a study). Type 1 is the Spock-type, logical with low emotional range. Type 2 is the BPD-type, rigid, B/W thinking + high emotional range+low empathy/theory of mind. Type 2 tends to have a strong desire to fit in and limited social ability. This seems to occasionally lead to a ton of shame and magical thinking, which leads to blaming other people, which leads to BPD.

My wife seems to fit into the type 2 category really well. I suspect that artists and math majors may often fit into this category. In her case, she found meeting other Aspies extremely helpful (sobbing, shaking, 'found her people'). She also seems to have found that logical descriptions of common Aspie 'traps'* and procedures to avoid them are extremely reassuring. There were some persistent problems that she was just completely stuck on, and she tended to panic whenever they came up. The effectiveness of a few months of meetups and probably 5-6 hours of advice on social rules has been comparable in effectiveness to 3 years of DBT and antipsychotic medication. So, if your partner has social issues, a tendency to meltdown, rigid thinking, a BPD diagnosis, and, possibly, a tendency to believe everyone else on the planet has Asperger's...it might be worth looking into. (I've met more than one Aspie woman who was treated for BPD.

--Argyle
*Stuff like black-and-white thinking, or monologues, or thinking that everyone constantly judges every one of her social lapses.


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## john117

A lot of choices make little sense in the long term but plenty in the long term, with some risk. Like backgammon.

It would not surprise me if Dr. Mrs. BPD has some Aspie in her. Her field of work and study seems to attract them en masse. She's the poster girl for INTJ. 

Me, I am definitely the emotionally detached and unobserving type. I saw what excessive emotions did to my family and learned to compartmentalize. I am very goal driven as well, but not the step on bodies variety. Yet i am good with people. People can be convinced if you do things right. I am an ESTJ.

Argyle's type 2 description is spot on.


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## argyle

...in that case, I found that my wife was, in general, significantly more receptive to criticism and significantly more receptive to learning coping techniques for Aspies than I, or other people I'd talked to, had expected for a typical BPD. She knew, fundamentally, that there was something wrong with her - and just didn't have the ability to deal with it independently. A lot of people, including some therapists, spent a lot of time telling her that she was normal and just making bad choices. That didn't help. There was just a lot of stuff she couldn't figure out on her own.

There are hot button issues where she can't take criticism, but they tend to be pretty specific.

--Argyle


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## Robsia

john117 said:


> It would not surprise me if Dr. Mrs. BPD has some Aspie in her. Her field of work and study seems to attract them en masse. She's the poster girl for INTJ.


I'm Aspie and INTJ also, but I'm pretty sure I'm not BPD. I seem to be mixture of both types. I am definitely Spock-like and heavy on the logic, but I do feel emotions very strongly.

I know that sounds like a contradiction, but I have examined my own behaviour quite a lot recently. I think it's because if I allow myslf to feel the negative emotions it hurt SOOOO much because i feel them so strongly, that i work very hard to block them out.

See, it's not really a contradiction because Vulcans also had very powerful and dangerous emotions, which is precisely WHY they worked so hard to control them.

I definitely have low natural empathy.


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## argyle

Y'know, when we go to Aspie groups, about half are type 1 and half are type 2. The type 1's tend to have quiet, decently paid lives and trouble meeting women. I'm probably lower on emotionality than the average type 1. The type 2's tend to have anxiety disorders and a history of problems. Dunno.

--Argyle


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## john117

One can be an introvert with heavy duty emotions or an extrovert with low grade - if any - emotions. In our case I can even see why.

My partner can't regulate emotions all that much, meaning an issue is either a crisis worth of freaking out or ignored. She does not apply proportions or reason. If she gets a dollar less in change she can go into a tirade about how the locals hate foreigners.. She ends up expending a lot of emotional energy in useless issues (how did our a-hole neighbor afford a 1.5$M home) rather than put this emotional energy into better use...

In my case emotions don't buy much - I can empathize and be the nicest guy around but only in a Boy Scout non emotional way. 

Needless to say she won't seek treatment... But will follow boundaries at least when pushed against the wall.


----------



## argyle

...she sounds exactly like a type 2 Aspie - Sean's sections of Grandin's book have about half a dozen descriptions of that sort of behavior.

...my wife wasn't too receptive either, until we visited an Aspie meetup and she met a bunch of people who were exactly the same as she was.

...thing was, even though she had and has a bunch of BPD-like behaviors, an awful lot of her odder and more annoying behavior appears to have been directly related to autism. So, she'd listen to the DBT lessons, but there were persistent issues that just didn't budge because she's simply not mentally equipped to solve them on her own.

...way I'm thinking of it, which might just be BS, is that there are some fairly basic social/mental processes that she is just extraordinarily bad at.

--Argyle


----------



## john117

argyle said:


> ...way I'm thinking of it, which might just be BS, is that there are some fairly basic social/mental processes that she is just extraordinarily bad at.


That's it. The same brain that was smart enough to get multiple math degrees can't figure out how to write a check, reserve a ticket online, pay bills, or fill out a 3 page doctor office form. 

Likewise social processes are grossly messed up...


----------



## argyle

...one of the common problems with Aspergers is executive dysfunction. It is difficult for my wife to remember to pick dishes off the floor after she's done eating. This would be better if she didn't snack in the bedroom.

For a lot of that stuff, therapy didn't help much. Neither did validation. Limits and communication did help some, but not an awful lot.

The thing is, there's just some things my wife is extraordinarily bad at - and when forced to depend on herself to - eg - parse social interactions or to remember to bathe and change her clothing - will fail miserably, over and over again because she just doesn't have much theory of mind at all.

OTOH, it was remarkable how rapidly useful, and how calming, she found advice from Aspies on how to deal with life to be. For us, yes, a few years of DBT was useful for dealing with some behaviors, yes, a brief spell in jail helped a lot, but, yah, reading a couple of books and meeting people in the same boat who had reasonably ordered lives helped more. The unwritten rules of social communication, Grandin is an extremely useful book. My wife benefited from Sean's (one of the authors) advice, and accepted it pretty easily, because he'd already made nearly every mistake she had and figured out fixed.

--Argyle


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## Robsia

argyle said:


> ...one of the common problems with Aspergers is executive dysfunction. It is difficult for my wife to remember to pick dishes off the floor after she's done eating. This would be better if she didn't snack in the bedroom.


My house is ALWAYS messy. I hate it, but every time I think about cleaning up I just want to go and hide in a corner and put my head under a blanket.

There is always something I need to do that's more important than cleaning up.

I can do stuff if it's really important, like getting the kids to school, or laundry (I made that into a routine so that always happens), or work, but anything that's not important gets put off.


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## john117

Then scrub Aspergers from our menu... My wife is a neatness freak - not an easy task living in a 6000 sq ft home - and she finds cleaning very calming.

On the other hand personal appearance requires lots of reminders to dress without looking like a homeless person despite having a room sized closet full of good fashions and the figure to wear them (think Kris Jenner).

Since she was never poor, and since she was part of the ruling elite in her birth country a couple of dictators ago, it seems to me that she is in constant fear of losing her 1% status... She does not work 18 hour days because she loves to work, rather because her job is what keeps her in the 1%.


----------



## Robsia

john117 said:


> Then scrub Aspergers from our menu... My wife is a neatness freak - not an easy task living in a 6000 sq ft home - and she finds cleaning very calming.


Well, you know what they say - you've met one autistic person, you've met one autistic person. It's a spectrum disorder, so we're not all the same.

Just because some people with an ASD are messy does not mean everyone is. I strongly suspect my dad is on the spectrum - we share a LOT of the same qualities - but he is a total neat freak.

It's funny - I am quite obsessive about some things - the crockery all has to face the same way in the cupboard, the dishwasher has to be loaded the same way, books/DVDs/CDs are alphabetised, my wardrobe is organised by function and the hangers all have to face the same way - but when it comes to staying tidy outside of cupboards/wardrobes etc, I can't do it.

But when I DO put things away - they are neat and uber-organised.


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## argyle

There's, um, a lot of variability. Possibly more than you'd find in the normal population.

The whole dressing like a homeless person thing though...that's pretty characteristic. Seriously. My wife definitely has that problem - and - as far as I know - it isn't one that is typical of BPD alone.

For cleanliness, there's a tendency to find order calming. I'd say that there's a tendency to be either obsessively clean or filthy - not much in the middle.

--Argyle


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## john117

Part of the near homeless attire is actually financially related. She does not want to wear off her clothes / shoes / etc so she wears the worst she can get away with when she's at home or with us and saves her attires for important client meetings, expat Farawaystan parties, and cruises.

Ironically both her and my girls defer all things fashion to me (being the European one ) never mind I dress in oxfords and jeans year round... I think it bothers her that someone of her (cough) social status ended up married to the dregs of Europe...


----------



## MEM2020

John,
Your comment below about pent up pressure is dead on. 

My personal experience is this. The best pressure release by far is via physical sparring. No weapons or objects - straight hand to hand. 

I consciously remind myself to do that on a routine basis and it makes a big difference. For us the rules are simple, though highly asymmetrical:
Her rules: 
1. My throat and eyes are off limits 
2. No biting
3. She can punch, elbow, knee, scratch etc. 

My rules: 
Defense: I block, wrestle, throw her around a bit (on the bed) 
Offence: I spank her open handed when I get the chance - not an easy thing while being kneed in the head 

The scratches/bruises received during our sparring matches have never hurt a fraction as much as some of the cruel stuff that she blasts at me when she is fully enmeshed in crazy town.....


QUOTE=john117;3243897]It is interesting to notice that the lack of frequent visits to Illogicon during a relatively peaceful period (*) seems to build pent up pressure for a no holds barred eventual visit over the most trivial item. It's as if there is some kind of illogicounter clicking away and after a few kilo-illogicums have been accumulated it's meltdown regardless of reason.

(*) It is this "not quite normal ever" feeling that causes considerable stress to the members of a BPD's family, not the actual events themselves.[/QUOTE]


----------



## dogman

MEM11363 said:


> John,
> Your comment below about pent up pressure is dead on.
> 
> My personal experience is this. The best pressure release by far is via physical sparring. No weapons or objects - straight hand to hand.
> 
> I consciously remind myself to do that on a routine basis and it makes a big difference. For us the rules are simple, though highly asymmetrical:
> Her rules:
> 1. My throat and eyes are off limits
> 2. No biting
> 3. She can punch, elbow, knee, scratch etc.
> 
> My rules:
> Defense: I block, wrestle, throw her around a bit (on the bed)
> Offence: I spank her open handed when I get the chance - not an easy thing while being kneed in the head
> 
> The scratches/bruises received during our sparring matches have never hurt a fraction as much as some of the cruel stuff that she blasts at me when she is fully enmeshed in crazy town.....
> 
> 
> QUOTE=john117;3243897]It is interesting to notice that the lack of frequent visits to Illogicon during a relatively peaceful period (*) seems to build pent up pressure for a no holds barred eventual visit over the most trivial item. It's as if there is some kind of illogicounter clicking away and after a few kilo-illogicums have been accumulated it's meltdown regardless of reason.
> 
> (*) It is this "not quite normal ever" feeling that causes considerable stress to the members of a BPD's family, not the actual events themselves.


[/QUOTE]

Haha! This is hilarious! You're right about a buildup that needs an outlet. The physical sparring thing is the funny part. My wife needs verbal sparring and it can be way dangerous as the room tilts and I slide into the mouth of a dragon, kicking and screaming the whole way.

While we were separated she wanted to do this physical sparring/wrestling. We did it once. Haha! It ended with some of the strangest sex ever for us. Very rough, and awesome at the same time. Wow! It didn't work for the mental release for her though.

If it works for you that's awesome. Good for you guys.


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## argyle

...y'know, I thought about trying, dunno, a kickboxing class with wife and setting up a sparring ring. Probably not anytime soon...but could be useful.

--Argyle


----------



## Uptown

Dog, how are you two doing now? Are things still at the same plateau you reached several weeks ago (by enforcing your personal boundaries)?


----------



## dogman

Uptown said:


> Dog, how are you two doing now? Are things still at the same plateau you reached several weeks ago (by enforcing your personal boundaries)?


Hi uptown, 
We're doing well at the moment. Thanks for checking in. 
I've logged all of our bad events and right now it's n been about 3 weeks since the last one that was kinda bad. The last total freak out was on the 4 th of July. 
I've sworn that if it gets to that point again...im out. The problem is so much good time passes in between that I weaken in my resolve.
I'm standing by my take no abuse boundaries and if it goes there again I will enforce those boundaries no matter what I have to do, including leave.

Our youngest just went off to college so our home life has changed for the good. When that novelty wears off....we'll see.


----------



## Uptown

Dog, thanks for the update. I'm glad to hear you are having a rather peaceful period. I am hopeful she will continue it by respecting your personal boundaries.


----------



## PieceOfSky

argyle said:


> ...y'know, I thought about trying, dunno, a kickboxing class with wife and setting up a sparring ring. Probably not anytime soon...but could be useful.
> 
> --Argyle


Apologies in advance if this is a goofy idea. Have you considered video games, say, mildly violent ones? The Wii has a boxing one that might relieve some stress. Not the full physical experience, but mild exertion, and fun. And you can fine tune the looks of your avatars to make it seem more personal.


----------



## john117

My sample size of one BPD suggests they're not conducive to liking video games or competition in general. Not that there are many people that can take me out in Halo multiplayer...


----------



## dogman

Uptown said:


> Dog, thanks for the update. I'm glad to hear you are having a rather peaceful period. I am hopeful she will continue it by respecting your personal boundaries.


Ok....i take it back. We were up for hours last night and she got bad. I set my boundaries and she actually stopped and let me sleep. Still waiting for the other shoe.

Im ready to bail. I hate this.

I checked the log I have and it was...

August 28 the last time it blew up. 
Aug 7th before that.
july 28th
July 7th
July 4th
So on and so on...

So it's been 2 weeks. Keeping a record is good because its my nature to forgive and block stuff out.

This will get bad today so ill keep you posted.


----------



## Uptown

With my BPDer exW, the temper tantrums usually exhibited a similar pattern, i.e., every two or three weeks on average. Like I said earlier, BPDers are always seen to be "greatly improving" -- in the same way that smokers are "always quitting" every few weeks. Sadly, being on the "up" side of the cycle typically only means the "down" side is drawing near.


----------



## john117

I observed a very high correlation of flare ups with sex the night before...


----------



## treyvion

john117 said:


> I observed a very high correlation of flare ups with sex the night before...


Their other side could hate you for the sex.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## argyle

Typical triggers include abandonment and engulfment. So, yah. Sex is a problem, particularly anything that involves emotional bonding.

Realistically, personal change takes years, say 3 - that's 36 months. So, don't expect quick fixes.

Given weekly or monthly flareups and bearing in mind the high amount of fluctuation of a typical BPD, you'll need to measure over periods of months to determine whether or not things are changing. Besides, if your behavior patterns change, there's a tendency towards a significant short-term uptick in dysfunction.

It is also tricky because flareups can vary significantly in intensity.

I set up a reasonably objective 5 point scale with fairly concrete criteria. (1=disagreeable, 5=prolonged violent physical assault). And measured over 3 month periods. In retrospect, 6 months periods probably give a more stable picture (but you can always average). And set goals for each category on a half-yearly basis.

After the first year or two, there was measurable progress to behavior that was below my divorce threshold. So, I got lazy and stopped the measurements.

I would describe it as a gradual linear trend, with probably about 3 fairly sudden improvements. The first sudden improvement was primarily based on my changing my behavior patterns to be much less tolerant (jail) of abusive behavior. The second sudden improvement followed several years of therapy when my wife suddenly, for no reason I could trace, stopped continually looping around why everyone else was at fault. The third sudden improvement immediately followed me taking her to an Aspie support group and her self-identifying as having some level of Aspergers. Since then, the rate of change has visibly accelerated.

But yah, if you really want to know if thing are getting better, try averaging over at least 3 periods where you collect at least 25 incidents.

--Argyle


----------



## 2galsmom

Borderline Personality Disorder is not treatable. They lie in therapy, they quit therapy. I was married to a man with BPD and I am a trained in psychological rehab. I pity you if you are married to someone with true borderline personality disorder.

My advice is this, value yourself. Take care of yourself. Your mental health will devolve to "fit" with their demands and the downward slope has no end. No end.


----------



## soulpotato

2galsmom said:


> Borderline Personality Disorder is not treatable. They lie in therapy, they quit therapy. I was married to a man with BPD and I am a trained in psychological rehab. I pity you if you are married to someone with true borderline personality disorder.
> 
> My advice is this, value yourself. Take care of yourself. Your mental health will devolve to "fit" with their demands and the downward slope has no end. No end.


People with BPD often have trouble staying in therapy, yes, but the disorder IS treatable. Please don't spread this kind of negativity when it's not even true.


----------



## Uptown

2galsmom said:


> Ok. But I feel you are being inaccurate, I can go and get research articles if you want to put me to the challenge.


2Gals, I would certainly welcome links to those articles -- not to challenge you but, rather, to educate myself. Everything I've read supports SoulPotato's view that BPD cannot be cured but can be treated. Treatment programs like DBT have been successful in teaching BPDers how to exert much better control over their emotions, how to stay in the present, how to do self soothing, how to build stronger boundaries, and how to intellectually challenge their own intense feelings.

As SoulPotato notes, the problem is not the lack of good treatment programs but, rather, the lack of attendance. It is rare for a BPDer to have both the self awareness and ego strength required to be willing to persist in those programs long enough to make a difference. Indeed, I would be surprised if any more than 1 in 100 BPDers are able to accomplish that.

If so, this means that -- of the 18 million BPDers in the USA -- 180,000 of them have the self awareness and ego strength necessary to do well in therapy. Not surprisingly, some of those self-aware BPDers end up here on TAM seeking advice on how they can stop their own pain and stop hurting their loved ones. In the past seven years, I've responded to posts from nearly a hundred of these self-aware BPDers -- some as young as 16 -- who are reaching out for help.

Many TAM members, including SoulPotato and me, have reached out to help them by pointing them to online BPD resources and encouraging them to seek therapy. We are quick to tell them that, by having such a rare level of self awareness (for a BPDer), they have already surmounted the obstacle blocking nearly all BPDers from being successful in therapy. This means that, if they have the ego strength to persist in therapy, their chance of success is excellent.


> I feel that people who place pressure on husbands or wives to "treat" or "cure" or "fix" people with severe anti-social diagnoses do that person a tremendous disservice by offering them false hope and psychobabble.


I agree. When we are trying to help the abused spouses and partners, SoulPotato and I are usually quick to point out that the chances of a BPDer being willing to work hard in therapy are very small. Indeed, I tell them the chance likely is 1 in 100 at best.


> I concede, many patients will go to therapy! Bring their spouse as well, then talk about the spouse and focus on what the spouse is doing wrong.


With SoulPotato and me, you are singing to the choir. We know exactly what you're complaining about. In my case, I spent a small fortune taking my BPDer exW to six different psychologists (and 3 MCs) -- in weekly visits for 15 years -- all to no avail. She simply played mind games with the psychologists and, as you say, complained about me.

The result of all that useless "therapy," at the end of the 15 years, was that she had me arrested on a bogus charge (of brutalizing her) and thrown into jail. On the ride to jail, the arresting officer told me that -- next time we had a fight -- I should beat her to the phone and quickly call the police because their policy, when in doubt, is to arrest the party who did NOT make the phone call.


----------



## john117

Those with such extreme behavior may be the outliers of the overall BPD population tho... Maybe the high functioning ones do not resort to such antics? 

The biggest issue in dealing with a BPD is the brute insanity of dealing with a black and white world. Even if the BPD in question is as well behaved as a golden retriever... The real world is not black and white and the inability to process such concepts is the beginning of many an argument or flare up...


----------



## 2galsmom

john117 said:


> Those with such extreme behavior may be the outliers of the overall BPD population tho... Maybe the high functioning ones do not resort to such antics?
> 
> The biggest issue in dealing with a BPD is the brute insanity of dealing with a black and white world. Even if the BPD in question is as well behaved as a golden retriever... The real world is not black and white and the inability to process such concepts is the beginning of many an argument or flare up...


Indeed. My sentiments exactly. Good guys vs. bad guys 24/7. In order to live with that you have to conform to that world. I was not interested in keeping a husband on a timer and giving treats. He NEVER would have tolerated it, there is also a tendency to label someone with a dx and treat them like the label. It was a constant power struggle not to submit and when I did for the sake of the marriage so went my sanity.


Plus the whole I don't have a problem THEY have a problem thing complicated perhaps not the treatment of the issues but the efficacy of the treatment. Likewise, people with BPD are not black and white, they are all different. Often they have a whole lot more to offer like narcissism on top of the BPD. 

Since I myself am not a black and white thinker, I think one should resist a focus the dx and look at what is going on in the marriage.


----------



## argyle

Y'know, BPD is treatable. There are a fair number of studies indicating reasonable effectiveness for DBT therapy. And well, after 3 years, my wife's symptoms are much reduced. Amazingly so in some respects.

That said, there are some big caveats:
(a) BPDs are so unpleasant and hard to work with that most therapists would rather forgo 200 USD hourly to not deal with them. That, and the suicide rate means that you need support services that most individual practitioners can't provide. So, if you're staying, you need your head examined.
(b) There's a big difference between normal and 'symptoms got enough better that you aren't getting hospitalized'.
(c) Most of these studies are done on the clinical population, which is the portion of the personality disordered who attempt suicide. The highly abusive NPD-style borderlines are less likely to be in those studies.
(d) The dropout rate for therapy is high. But - not 100%.

My personal opinion is that leaving is smarter, but that it is reasonable to outline the changes needed in a marriage and then give your spouse an opportunity or three to correct them - with set deadlines.

--Argyle


----------



## 2galsmom

argyle said:


> Y'know, BPD is treatable. There are a fair number of studies indicating reasonable effectiveness for DBT therapy. And well, after 3 years, my wife's symptoms are much reduced. Amazingly so in some respects.
> 
> That said, there are some big caveats:
> (a) BPDs are so unpleasant and hard to work with that most therapists would rather forgo 200 USD hourly to not deal with them. That, and the suicide rate means that you need support services that most individual practitioners can't provide. So, if you're staying, you need your head examined.
> (b) There's a big difference between normal and 'symptoms got enough better that you aren't getting hospitalized'.
> (c) Most of these studies are done on the clinical population, which is the portion of the personality disordered who attempt suicide. The highly abusive NPD-style borderlines are less likely to be in those studies.
> (d) The dropout rate for therapy is high. But - not 100%.
> 
> My personal opinion is that leaving is smarter, but that it is reasonable to outline the changes needed in a marriage and then give your spouse an opportunity or three to correct them - with set deadlines.
> 
> --Argyle


Good, I am glad it worked out for you.


----------



## dogman

I really am happy this forum exists. There are so many people on here who have a wealth of information that has been very helpful.

My situation has come a long way since I was married 23 years ago. I made some huge mistakes along the way. I may or may not be able to work through this. If it fails I will know I've done all I can because I've been able to read all of your experiences and even all the knowledge in the world can't fix things sometimes.

It would appear that it's not knowledge but he willingness of the BPDer to work on change, that makes the difference.

It didn't get bad yesterday. I woke her in the morning with words of support and love and her anxiety dissipated. That's a first.
I hink she knows that no matter how much I love her , I will leave her if it goes to that place again.

She said she didn't like being forced to not talk about it when I said "we're done, no more" I explained that she has a loop and we have to stop the loop before it escalates into very bad things. So we stop until more reasonable thoughts can win over the day.
I've said the many time in the past, this is the first time she listened.

I don't know guys...I wish she'd just flip out and try to kill me so my decision would be easy. The gentle rabbit of a woman she is normally is a the only thing that stops me from giving up.

Here's a confusing aspect....there are personality traits and actions that are very limiting to me, that I now realize are black and white thinking own her part. These things are present 100% of the time with her. It causes her to feel the world is against HER. People and things are either good or bad, friends are cool till they make a mistake then they are bad. Same with family, there s very little chance of redeeming yourself once you've "fallen" 

While this sounds petty on my part, it has hugely affected my social life and lifelong friends. I'm human and make mistakes, I believe people can redeem themselves and I celebrate my humanness. I am very forgiving because of this. 
So am I using this BPD thing to want a new life, because she's been like that since I met her 23+ years ago.


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## john117

Dogman, everyone has different goals from a relationship. Even with a BPD. If you're getting what you want all and don't mind crazy-town visits once in a while all is well, otherwise...

Right now my wife's flare ups are mild and brief, a far cry from a few years ago. With very firm boundaries and some prediction and lots of reminders of normal behavior she can function remarkably well except in the intimacy department. As long as the college tuition money for our daughters keep coming in we're ok. It's not ideal but is sure beats taking college loans...


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## dogman

2galsmom said:


> Thank you Dogman for starting this thread. For a brief period this morning I was feeling guilty ONCE AGAIN for not "working harder" to "make" things with someone truly sick work but your comments about black and white thinking all brought it back.
> 
> People went from the good list to the "bad" list in a blink of an eye, then all the people on the "bad" or black list became "they" and "they" were all out to get him. He terrorized me in the middle of the night, waking me up "WE HAVE TO SAVE SUCH AND SUCH" you "have" to do something" to save blah blah blah from "them" the bad people.
> 
> Next thing you know, "they" are bugging your house, you are required as you are the stay at home mom and have no real job to sit and write down license plate numbers of all the "bad" people and their spies out to get them because - here is where the narcissism comes in - is on his way to the top and the bad guys are are jealous.
> 
> To this day I cringe when people say are they "bad guys" or "I am with the good guys."
> 
> Can't stay in therapy, why? Well the therapists end up on the "blacklist."
> 
> Good luck dogman I hope you find joy somewhere on those hard days struggling with your wife's issues and I hope you maintain your sanity. I would be interested in all the research saying they improve with therapy as his psychiatrist said otherwise and all the research I have, and really this is no longer my cause, suggests otherwise.
> 
> Treatment? His psychiatrist wanted me to have him committed. I wish I had. He would not go willingly and pulled the "you can save me" crap, "all I need is you." Yeah, and the woman at work you ****ed and the strippers.
> 
> Hugs to you dogman, you need it!


Thanks 2galsmom, that sounds like he has paranoid issues. My wife is way more subtle. The blacklist is easy to get on. Her paranoia is about people wanting to emotionally hurt her for some reason. Even when at work she has these issues day to day.

I find that the change in me happened slowly and it happened because I would discover things that trigger her attacks on me and I would eliminate those things from our social schedule. Years down the road there's a whole lot less to do. We get out of town a lot. And she likes matinee movies so we don't run into people she doesn't want to see. We spend too much time on the things that people have done to her. 

I guess I feel limited as time goes by and Im to blame for some of it. I realize now. So I have to undo what's been done and ill be needing a lot of energy to do it.


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## john117

Yep. Living with a BPD is halfway living inside the History Channel where every interaction in the past is analyzed to oblivion like in CSPAN... Eventually all conversation is focused on other people or the BPD's work or material possessions. It's like a computer virus that slows down your powerful PC to a crawl.. 

Not to mention the indecisiveness...


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## dogman

john117 said:


> Yep. Living with a BPD is halfway living inside the History Channel where every interaction in the past is analyzed to oblivion like in CSPAN... Eventually all conversation is focused on other people or the BPD's work or material possessions. It's like a computer virus that slows down your powerful PC to a crawl..
> 
> Not to mention the indecisiveness...


WOW! Yes!
And if you start to show a distaste for the conversation or don't respond correctly it can all turn into you and what you've done wrong.


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## john117

On the other hand it may be very easy to manipulate BPD's into anything... Their minds are so preoccupied with processing black vs white and acting normally that it leaves little time for sophisticated cognitive processing for other things i.e. everyday life... Does your favorite neighborhood BPD have brain power left over for things like demanding video games, playing music, or pursuing complex hobbies, or do they prefer low-brain activities like excercise, gardening, or watching TV?

Hmmm sounds like a paper or grant idea


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## PieceOfSky

2galsmom said:


> Thank you Dogman for starting this thread. For a brief period this morning I was feeling guilty ONCE AGAIN for not "working harder" to "make" things with someone truly sick work but your comments about black and white thinking all brought it back.


If an anonymous person's opinion on the Internet is of any value to you, from just the little you described you have nothing to feel guilty about for leaving. It must have been very difficult while you were with him, destructive to you and your children. And, hurtful actions on his part, of the worst kind.

I know you didn't come here to have your decision re-analyzed. But, I just wanted to say I hope you find peace with it, and accept that you did what you had to do. It no doubt took much courage.

That's how it looks from here, anyways.


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## dogman

john117 said:


> On the other hand it may be very easy to manipulate BPD's into anything... Their minds are so preoccupied with processing black vs white and acting normally that it leaves little time for sophisticated cognitive processing for other things i.e. everyday life... Does your favorite neighborhood BPD have brain power left over for things like demanding video games, playing music, or pursuing complex hobbies, or do they prefer low-brain activities like excercise, gardening, or watching TV?
> 
> Hmmm sounds like a paper or grant idea


My wife is actually very intelligent and in fact bores so easily that she will multi-task almost all the time. She was a bio chemist and recently went back to school at 44 for nursing and graduated first in her class and apparently with the highest grades they've seen in years. She also had a minor in psychology....unfortunately. 
It really makes the arguments suck for me. The crazy loop is usually pretty complicated. And triggers can be many. Also she is an expert at word twisting and remembering things that I seem to have forgotten, and often wonder if they really did happen.

I love hearing about the various BPD spouses out there. I feel a lot 
Less alone when reading about their habits.


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## john117

The feisty Dr. Mrs. BPD has a doctorate in applied mathematics and works as an analytics consultant... She's one of those people that can find needles in haystacks but due to lack of common sense can't find her way out of a paper bag...

She was a bit strange to begin with, never really adjusting to life in the USA (she's from some country in Central Asia) but as I wrote here in the past, her family was part of the ruling elite a dictator or two ago and then poof!

She immerses herself into her work and nothing else matters, you get the idea...


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## soulpotato

john117 said:


> The biggest issue in dealing with a BPD is the brute insanity of dealing with a black and white world. Even if the BPD in question is as well behaved as a golden retriever... The real world is not black and white and the inability to process such concepts is the beginning of many an argument or flare up...


Part of the purpose of treatment is to teach the BPDer how to "reintegrate" - to stop thinking so much in the black and white pattern, or at least how to question and arrest that tendency, and how to cope with the fact that the real world is so often complicated and muddy, etc, etc.


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## Uptown

2galsmom said:


> I would be interested in all the research saying they improve with therapy....


2Gals, I will mention a few to get you started:


The NIMH (National Institute of Mental Health) states that "recent research shows that borderline personality disorder can be treated effectively, and that many people with this illness improve over time." See para. 6 at NIMH · Borderline Personality Disorder. This view of NIMH is important because it spends more money each year to fund mental health research than any other institution in the world.
Randi Kreger presents an overview of successful treatment results at http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...e-good-news-and-bad-news-about-bpd-treatment;
_LA Times_ summary of the favorable results found in McClean Hospital Study at http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/booster_shots/2010/04/borderline-personality-disorder-recovery.html;
Dr. Gunderson's 2011 "BPD Brief" concludes that "
In the past few decades, treatment for Borderline Personality Disorder has changed radically, and, in turn, the prognosis for improvement...." See pp. 9-10 at http://www.borderlinepersonalitydisorder.com/understading-bpd/a-bpd-brief/;

National Education Alliance for BPD reports that "evidenced-based treatments have emerged over the past two decades bringing hope to those diagnosed with the disorder and their loved ones." See National Education Alliance for Borderline Personality Disorder.
_Amer. J. of Psychiatry_ article (2009) concludes that "many effective interventions in the dynamic therapy of patients with borderline personality disorder share the end goal of changing intrapsychic core attitudes about self and other for the purpose of altering maladaptive interpersonal relationship patterns." See p. 520 at http://www.borderlinepersonalitydisorder.com/documents/Gabbard.pdf; and
 2011 Mark Moran article in _Psychiatric News_ discusses "the eminently treatable nature of the condition." See "Long Journey Led to Advances in Understanding, Treating BPD" at PsychiatryOnline | Psychiatric News | News Article.


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## soulpotato

john117 said:


> On the other hand it may be very easy to manipulate BPD's into anything... Their minds are so preoccupied with processing black vs white and acting normally that it leaves little time for sophisticated cognitive processing for other things i.e. everyday life... Does your favorite neighborhood BPD have brain power left over for things like demanding video games, playing music, or pursuing complex hobbies, or do they prefer low-brain activities like excercise, gardening, or watching TV?
> 
> Hmmm sounds like a paper or grant idea


I sure do. I love mentally engaging things. I have no problem with processing and tend to wear out my nearest and dearest on that front.  (It's the emotional struggle that's the challenge, not the "sophisticated cognitive processing".) I wouldn't say that the people close to me find me particularly easy to manipulate, though.


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## soulpotato

dogman said:


> *It would appear that it's not knowledge but he willingness of the BPDer to work on change, that makes the difference.*


YES. This is absolutely huge. Because while it is hard and painful for the partner/spouse of the BPDer, it is also excruciating and going against the grain/survival instinct for the BPDer to make these changes and keep working at something that feels bad and dangerous.



dogman said:


> It didn't get bad yesterday. I woke her in the morning with words of support and love and her anxiety dissipated. That's a first. I think she knows that no matter how much I love her , I will leave her if it goes to that place again.


I am sorry, dogman.  I know it breaks your heart to keep going through this.



dogman said:


> Here's a confusing aspect....there are personality traits and actions that are very limiting to me, that I now realize are black and white thinking own her part. These things are present 100% of the time with her. It causes her to feel the world is against HER. People and things are either good or bad, friends are cool till they make a mistake then they are bad. Same with family, there s very little chance of redeeming yourself once you've "fallen"


The way the black and white thinking presents seems to vary a little between BPDers, just as all of the other traits/symptoms. When it is very pronounced and extreme across the board like that, I can well imagine how difficult it is to cope with.



dogman said:


> While this sounds petty on my part, it has hugely affected my social life and lifelong friends. I'm human and make mistakes, I believe people can redeem themselves and I celebrate my humanness. I am very forgiving because of this.
> So am I using this BPD thing to want a new life, because she's been like that since I met her 23+ years ago.


Not petty at all. The effects can be pretty dramatic. That kind of rigidity is unforgiving and leaves no room for mistakes or forgiveness.  Or being a fallible human, as you noted.


----------



## soulpotato

2galsmom said:


> Thank you Dogman for starting this thread. For a brief period this morning I was feeling guilty ONCE AGAIN for not "working harder" to "make" things with someone truly sick work but your comments about black and white thinking all brought it back.


2gals, no reason to feel guilty, you did what you were able to do and had to leave. It sounds like your husband had other issues on top of his BPD. Some people are more difficult to help than others, and as dogman said, willingness to work and change is really the make-or-break piece of the whole endeavor.



2galsmom said:


> People went from the good list to the "bad" list in a blink of an eye, then all the people on the "bad" or black list became "they" and "they" were all out to get him. He terrorized me in the middle of the night, waking me up "WE HAVE TO SAVE SUCH AND SUCH" you "have" to do something" to save blah blah blah from "them" the bad people.


Let me just tell you that not all BPDers are the same. They are individuals, with different combinations of personality, BPD traits, severity, etc. I am sorry that you went through such a terrible experience with your BPD husband. 



2galsmom said:


> Can't stay in therapy, why? Well the therapists end up on the "blacklist."


The therapist can be a huge source of discomfort and be perceived as a threat at times. It can be tough to face that. (As Uptown pointed out, it takes a lot of ego strength and commitment.) I certainly have times when I am seriously irritated with my therapist, but I keep going because I know that this is helping me, and helping my partner because of that. There are therapists who don't know what they're talking about, and those do more harm than good and should be left behind. It has to be someone who has the knowledge, training, and skills to truly help the BPDer.


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## soulpotato

2galsmom said:


> Ok. But I feel you are being inaccurate, I can go and get research articles if you want to put me to the challenge. I feel that people who place pressure on husbands or wives to "treat" or "cure" or "fix" people with severe anti-social diagnoses do that person a tremendous disservice by offering them false hope and psychobabble.


2gals, I promise you I am not being inaccurate. I actually have BPD myself and have been to multiple therapists, not to mention done tons of reading. Overwhelmingly, the feedback is positive for successful treatment of BPD, but there is no doubt that it requires that the BPDer be willing to put in a lot. 

The pressure is absolutely not on the partner/spouse to fix, treat, or cure the BPDer - totally not even possible. That has to come from within the BPDer, aided by a qualified therapist. I don't offer people false hope, I offer cautious hope. I do warn them that the requirements for successful treatment are steep and that their BPDer may not be up to the task. But is it reasonably possible? Absolutely.

Now, a spouse can certainly be psychologically scarred by years with an untreated BPDer, and if they have to leave, no one can blame them. It is a hard road. Not for the faint of heart, not by any means. Even a very high-functioning BPDer can put someone through the wringer. Maybe more so if they have strong narcissistic traits thrown into the mix. The spouse/partner has to decide every day if it is worth it or not. I am fortunate that my partner still feels that it is worth it to stick with me. Granted, I am not calling the police on her or assaulting her, but she has her own problems and really doesn't need mine on top of those. 



2galsmom said:


> By treatable do you mean attending a doctor's office and appeasing a mate?


No, I mean real change. 



2galsmom said:


> Yes, they will do that. How are you measuring success and outcome? Treatable = going to the physicians? So we argue semantics, My husband was "treated" then he beat the **** out of me and the abuse got worse when I would not surrender repeatedly to "his view" of the black and white world that is characteristic of people with Borderline Personality Disorder.


Treatable = people succeeding in changing enough that they can live in a more normal, less destructive fashion and eventually no longer "present" as having the disorder. Progress and outcome will of course vary between BPDers. Your husband may have been one of those people who will never change or be willing to see himself.  I am sorry he was so abusive and terrible to you.



2galsmom said:


> I concede, many patients will to to therapy! Bring their spouse as well, then talk about the spouse and focus on what the spouse is doing wrong. So be it, it is being treated.


LOL, no, as a matter-of-fact, my therapy session today was my partner's chance to complain about "infuriating stuff that SP does".  Despite that, by the time we left, we were both in a pretty good mood. 



2galsmom said:


> But pllease when people are suffering and thinking of bailing don't put the rehabilitation of the other person on them.


That is not what I ever suggested. It is the BPDer's responsibility to seek and pursue treatment and change, not the partner's. If the partner has reached that point where they need to leave for their own welfare, then they have reached it, and neither I nor anyone else here would likely discourage them from leaving. I'm always sad to see it come to that, but I recognize that it is a likely and sometimes necessary outcome. I would never advise anyone to disregard their own welfare.



2galsmom said:


> Living with a spouse with BPD is a life sentence. I am entitled to my opinion. I think it is positive to encourage people in the situation that I was in to think about themselves. "Positive" advice kept me in a hell and took 5 years of my life and my life's savings.


Encouraging people to think of themselves is different from encouraging them to think that an _entire_ group of people is hopeless and beyond redemption, especially when that's untrue. An opinion is one thing, spreading harmful misinformation is another. I am sorry for the experience you had with your husband and that people encouraged you to stay in that situation, but not all BPDers are him, and not all situations are like yours.



2galsmom said:


> Had I listened to the people who bluntly and *gasp* negatively said, Get OUT! I would have been much better off and my daughter would not have seen him try to kill me while I was holding her.


Like I said, not all situations and BPD partners/spouses are like yours. I would never, ever hurt or try to kill my partner. I love her. Even when I get angry. But that's me.



2galsmom said:


> You suggest working it out to save the marriage, I suggest saving yourself when in this situation. Let us agree to disagree on this topic.


Not at all. I was just pointing out that you made an untrue statement, which can be very damaging. BPD is already stigmatized and misunderstood enough as it is.  Again, I am sorry that you had a horrible experience with a BPDer, but we're not all like your husband was. Small comfort, I know.


----------



## john117

BPD's vary dramatically, true that, but the underlaying issues are the same, especially the black and white thinking, and the inability or unwillingness to see other points of view if they clash with the dogma de jour. 

Thankfully I have sample size of one BPD so I can't generalize but the symptoms and their impact can be severe even if the BPD in question is high functioning and (cough) well adapted.


----------



## soulpotato

john117 said:


> BPD's vary dramatically, true that, but the underlaying issues are the same, especially the black and white thinking, and the inability or unwillingness to see other points of view if they clash with the dogma de jour.
> 
> Thankfully I have sample size of one BPD so I can't generalize but the symptoms and their impact can be severe even if the BPD in question is high functioning and (cough) well adapted.


Yes, though the expressions and combination of said traits vary, there is "the list", lol. However, that is where the commonality ends. They are not always all present in an individual, presented to the same degree, in the same way, etc. It's kind of like saying that every human is the same because they will always display traits from the set of possible human traits.

Yes, a high-functioning BPDer can still have severe traits/impact upon others. Well-adapted...or well-adjusted?


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## john117

Adapted, not adjusted 

I wonder if HF BPD's are useful in the corporate world exactly because of their traits (solid decision makers :rotfl: or diligent problem solvers and the like)....

Again, from a sample size of one, but interesting nonetheless...


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## soulpotato

Thought you were coughing at the well-adapted part while meaning well-adjusted. Obviously BPDers aren't well-adjusted, but I think they're well-adapted to what they grew up with. Not necessarily what comes later, though they can be good at adapting to lots of things. 

I'm extremely valued at work because of those qualities you mention, actually.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## argyle

...dunno...I wouldn't feel guilty about leaving. I think the worst thing you can do to a BPD (or anyone really) is to cater to and enable dysfunctional behaviors. Consequences help.

One of the consequences of adultery is having your wife leave you. Simple enough.

That said, predictable, known consequences probably work better than sudden high consequences.

--Argyle


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## john117

Consequences, validating good behavior, and strong boundaries to avoid bad behavior Standard issue tools of preschool teachers worldwide...

Smiley face optional...


----------



## LifeIsBeautiful42

Hi,
I read all the posts in this thread, and some of it was surprsingly so familiar. Thanks for sharing. Last event was after a night out, the lift was packed and I wanted to wait for the next one...big mistake. "Why couldn't I just do what she wanted and squeeze in?"...because I was afraid of someone bumping into her and triggering something in a packed lift. It happened elsewhere before. What followed I do not wish to revisit, just insane. I know I can't help if a person does not want it. The egg shells analogy, was not encouraging, but rings true. How can I overcame the constant fear of the consequences if things go "wrong", it's no use if both of us are in a "bad" state. I am aware of the "hit the eject button if you want to live", but still clawing on as the marriage is than 2 years. If you had faced the same situation, how should I tell my boss and coworkers this is affecting me to the point I can't work well, and not sounding like I am asking for sympathy?

_Things can only get better?_


----------



## john117

It is simply a medical issue that could be anything from an ingrown toenail to Stage IV bad news as far as the boss goes. For the short term keep your focus on your work and try not to take things personally.

If you're in it 2 years you can bail out fairly easily - assuming no children - so keep that in your mind. If you're not vested no point staying.


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## PieceOfSky

LifeIsBeautiful42 said:


> If you had faced the same situation, how should I tell my boss and coworkers this is affecting me to the point I can't work well, and not sounding like I am asking for sympathy?
> 
> _Things can only get better?_


It depends on the boss, of course, and perhaps what he or she knows of your value previously.

Anyone's home life can negatively effect their work life, for a variety of reasons. Some bosses understand this (especially if they've seen a bit of life already), and would be relieved to know the performance issue they might have seen has something to do with issues currently out of your direct control, and potentially not permanent.

In my case, I have gone through two deeply rough patches. One, I never gave a hint of my suffering, and I paid a price for that at work. Never again.

The other (current), I don't know if my boss asked first "Is everything alright?", or if I told him I was going to have weekly medical appointments (for IC and MC -- didn't tell him that part) and then he asked.

In the end, he's a responsible manager and I trust giving me a free pass is not on his agenda. But, it helps in multiple ways for him to know I am struggling with something and (AND?) that I am working towards a solution. It helps me to know that he knows it.

It seems details aren't necessary or even wanted by my manager. In the US, I get the feeling managers are often trained to not get too nosey about employees lives - I guess for legal concerns.

In the US, companies of a certain size often have Employee Assistance Programs (EAP) designed to confidentially help employees work through problems. I see that as official/top-level recognition that existing employees are valued and worth the help. And that difficulties in life can happen to any one.

But bottom line, it depends on the manager and the goodwill you yet to lose.

And when your in a tough situation, there's nothing wrong with receiving sympathy, or revealing part of your truth for fear of being mid-understood.


----------



## Uptown

LifeIsBeautiful42 said:


> _Things can only get better?_


No, LIB, if you're saying your W has strong BPD traits, you can expect her behavior to get worse. My experience is that, even if the disorder itself stays the same, as the years go by the W will become increasing resentful of your inability to make her happy or fix her. At the same time, she may become increasingly fearful of abandonment as she sees her body aging.

Yet, I am confused by the crowded elevator example you describe. A HF BPDer usually handles strangers quite well because they pose no threat to her fear of abandonment (no LTR to be abandoned) or her fear of engulfment (no intimacy to trigger that). Hence, if she is a HF BPDer, you seem to be describing traits of a co-occurring issue (e.g., anxiety, panic disorder, or PTSD). By the way, LIB, welcome to the TAM forum.


----------



## argyle

...my wife is also most likely mildly autistic. And elevators can be an issue for sensory overload or anxiety...and anxiety tends to lead to panic rages...

...I would say that a decent approach is to stop pretending that your partner is ok and covering for her.

There's two parts there...the part about not covering for people's behavior is obvious, although hard. People learn faster from consequences. And yes, they might leave, but they usually don't.

The less obvious part is accepting that your partner's crazy and planning ahead and changing your life to work around that.

There's small things...like we don't have guns or any other accessible weapon in our house. And larger things, like having multiple backup babysitters available for when my partner doesn't function. And arranging for another place and a packed bag where you can crash if your partner is having a crazy spell. Because see, your boss won't be mad the first time you show up on no sleep, but around time 105, it becomes a business issue. And, well, you're responsible for the consequences of staying with a BPD and letting them mess up your sleep schedule. Now, realistically, some things can't be compensated for - and - if you stay - those will cost you.

And the harder thing (If you're staying - and I'm perfectly fine with and somewhat envious of the people who leave...). Which is looking past their day-to-day behavior and focusing on long-term trends. The thing is that, assuming everything goes perfectly, you behave perfectly, and your partner miraculously discovers a need to change, _their behavior will immediately worsen_ and won't improve for months or possibly years. There is no magic f*king bullet. There is nothing that results in immediate positive change, except leaving. The problem is that real change is hard and painful for anyone. Stress tends to result in crazytown... 

Also, if you respond to every incident with threats of abandonment, that'll tend to sap an awful lot of energy. OTOH, if you look over a 6 month period, it is possible to see trends. It isn't completely hopeless either.

I personally was amazed and impressed by my wife's constancy and diligence. I believe that it is important to remember that BPD isn't the full dimension of a person's character. Some BPDs, like some other normal people, are smarmy dishonest people with low morals. Other BPDs are terribly honest and constant people with serious emotional control problems, a tendency towards homicidal panic rages, low empathy, and a desire to do right by other people.

--Argyle


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## LifeIsBeautiful42

Appreciate the comments so far. Gave me another insight into things. There are strong signs of other issues besides BPD which complicates it further. Ironically it is (the way I see it) a black or white thing, leave or sacrifice and deal with the consequences. One MC that we went to mentioned about steep learning curves, which I didn't understand then. I did reflect a lot on this, and it seems I need to realise the costs involved and prepare for it. Yes the badgering is taking its toll, and affecting my focus at work (subconsciously perhaps), is it possible to have an immune system to that and still maintain sanity?


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## PieceOfSky

Uptown said:


> My experience is that, even if the disorder itself stays the same, as the years go by the W will become increasing resentful of your inability to make her happy or fix her. At the same time, she may become increasingly fearful of abandonment as she sees her body aging.


I've not looked with fully-open eyes yet at the possibility of BPD here. But, that description matches what I suspect has been going on, very well, as we are hitting 50.


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## LifeIsBeautiful42

Hi Piece,
Thanks for sharing about your personal experience. Mind telling me, in general, about the mistake you made? 
It's hard for me talking to my boss openly...he passed a remark about no free lunches in this world. I could be paranoid, but wasn't comfortable when he said that to me personally.
But the fact of the matter, is that if I can't perform any goodwill will soon wear out. How do I get out of this rut...



PieceOfSky said:


> It depends on the boss, of course, and perhaps what he or she knows of your value previously.
> 
> In my case, I have gone through two deeply rough patches. One, I never gave a hint of my suffering, and I paid a price for that at work. Never again.
> 
> The other (current), I don't know if my boss asked first "Is everything alright?", or if I told him I was going to have weekly medical appointments (for IC and MC -- didn't tell him that part) and then he asked.


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## dogman

LifeIsBeautiful42 said:


> Hi Piece,
> Thanks for sharing about your personal experience. Mind telling me, in general, about the mistake you made?
> It's hard for me talking to my boss openly...he passed a remark about no free lunches in this world. I could be paranoid, but wasn't comfortable when he said that to me personally.
> But the fact of the matter, is that if I can't perform any goodwill will soon wear out. How do I get out of this rut...


LIB, 
It will cycle for you. When she is OK you will focus at wok and you will be productive. When she acts out, you will be distracted and faulter in all you do. 
The answer to this is to deal with your own co dependency issues. BPDers will often times attach to someone who is a pleaser. 

Work on yourself and learn to stay on point regardless of her roller coaster. I've made it 23 years with my wife who has been showing signs to a high degree of BPD. Recently I've had to really work on this to be happy regardless of her "events"

If you stay together you HAVE TO be more impervious to her crazy times. Even if youre up all night dealing with her. You cant believe waht she says about YOU. The next day, put it away and be a normal person who people want to be around at work and with friends. It's hard to do when you know you have that waiting for you at home.

Good luck.


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## soulpotato

For those who come to dread going home to their BPDers or end up feeling too burdened by them, there is always the option to leave. Don't forget that there is ALWAYS that choice. No sense in staying if you're just miserable and it is destroying your life. Everyone deserves a partner who loves them and is more or less happy to be with them, both people with and without BPD. People should pursue the life that they want.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## argyle

Seriously - basic survival. Beyond the usual bounds of being married to a human being - no one gets to keep you up all night.

So, options, given that you know you live with a crazy person:
(applied proactively, around 9 PM.)
(1) Walk out. Stay somewhere prearranged.
(2) Call the police. Deal with bail, if you do, after you get home from work.

She'll either choose to leave - which is just fine. Or get used to you walking out - which is just great. Or moderate her behavior to avoid going to jail. Or eventually rack up enough arrests that she ends up staying in prison. Or get shot, which is a bit unfortunate. To reduce the probability of the last outcome, bear in mind that some people will qualify for an involuntary psychiatric hold - which often means the arresting officer will be trained to deal with crazy.

--Argyle


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## dogman

...anyone remember Phil Hartman...that's the stuff that makes me sleep with one eye open.


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## LifeIsBeautiful42

Hi Dogman, noted with thanks. <Salute>.



dogman said:


> Work on yourself and learn to stay on point regardless of her roller coaster. I've made it 23 years with my wife who has been showing signs to a high degree of BPD. Recently I've had to really work on this to be happy regardless of her "events"
> 
> If you stay together you HAVE TO be more impervious to her crazy times. Even if youre up all night dealing with her. You cant believe waht she says about YOU. The next day, put it away and be a normal person who people want to be around at work and with friends. It's hard to do when you know you have that waiting for you at home.
> 
> Good luck.


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## dogman

...so ....how do you leave someone who has the emotional development of a 4 year old?

In the course of trying to placate her and make her feel loved and safe, I've made promises. I've sworn my undying love and eternal fidelity plus some the heat of battle. How do I ever look at myself in the mirror again if I break those promises and hurt her to that level?

She is not always acting out BPD traits but they are always on deck waiting for their turn. Anyone who knows my story would agree that there's something wrong with my situation.

I'm unhappy, I don't want to have life this way and I don't want to do what has to be done. I'm between a rock and a hard place. Just living for my interactions at work and with friends and my children is not enough I want more....is that selfish? What about for better or for worse?

Sorry, I'm rambling, I have know where else to talk about this. The easy answer any friend has said in the past is."...leave her, you deserve better" I won't hinder those relationships by bringing this negativity to them any more. This has messed up enough in my life, it won't mess up any more.

D


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## argyle

Well, the way I'd handle it...

(a) find her a therapist
(b) find a list of support people
(c) if she has any friends, get their phone numbers
(d) save up some money in a separate account
(e) figure out who will be moving out...identify a location.
(f) talk to a few lawyers and figure out expectations
(g) read 'Splitting'
(h) snag copies of all financial information
(i) talk to the local police department

...assuming you're moving out...

(1) Have 'the talk'. Preferably with a friend within earshot.
(2) Have either a friend or the police help you move out unimpeded while the divorce papers are served. Recommend a few competent lawyers to her.
(2a) Cancel any joint accounts/credit cards at this point. 
(3) Move into your new place.
(4) Plan on spending 6-12 months dealing with legal shenanigans.
(5) Live life.

--Argyle


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## LifeIsBeautiful42

Hi Dogman, 
I did go through similar questions to myself. One day after some heated arguments (I'm human too), she told me to leave me if I really couldn't stand it. Threat or not, I did ponder over it. Honestly, in the past if a friend came to me I'd probably tell him what your friend said. I'm in no position to advise anyone, let alone you, but I think sometimes there are no right or wrong choices, just good or bad ones. A choice may be good for someone, but not you. Have faith in yourself and what you have been trying to do and hope to do, and do what's best for you and the people you love, not just because others tell you it's the "right" thing to do. Now I'm rambling, sorry. Have a good weekend, wherever you are. BTW, do you have a dog?



dogman said:


> Sorry, I'm rambling, I have know where else to talk about this. The easy answer any friend has said in the past is."...leave her, you deserve better" I won't hinder those relationships by bringing this negativity to them any more. This has messed up enough in my life, it won't mess up any more.
> D


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## dogman

LifeIsBeautiful42 said:


> Hi Dogman,
> I did go through similar questions to myself. One day after some heated arguments (I'm human too), she told me to leave me if I really couldn't stand it. Threat or not, I did ponder over it. Honestly, in the past if a friend came to me I'd probably tell him what your friend said. I'm in no position to advise anyone, let alone you, but I think sometimes there are no right or wrong choices, just good or bad ones. A choice may be good for someone, but not you. Have faith in yourself and what you have been trying to do and hope to do, and do what's best for you and the people you love, not just because others tell you it's the "right" thing to do. Now I'm rambling, sorry. Have a good weekend, wherever you are. BTW, do you have a dog?



Haha! Yes I have a couple of dogs. Right now I have a couple mutts, kinda like southern houndy looking things. But I've always had yellow labs for most of my life.
I was recognizable in my area for always driving my work truck with two 120 lb labs standing in the back on top of all my cords and hoses with their heads out the side catching wind. They wn with me everywhere.

Thanks LIB, Im doing better, just lost focus for a couple days. And I seriously considered leaving. It's still on the table truthfully. According to my log, next week we are due for a gut wrenching event and if it goes that way I'm mentally preparing to bail.
She is currently in a very needy state with a lot of anxiety and there's nothing I can do to make her feel safe or loved. This usually precedes events. I guess I'll find out.

I guess I feel like its time to put up or shut up. My youngest just went off to college. That's been the reason for me to stay thus far. So now it's just me and my wife here....


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## john117

Southern houndy looking things, I'm sure the AKC has an entry for that 

Maybe when it's just the two of you it pmay be a chance to improve the relationship. Have you considered offering this to her as a last ditch effort? That and professional intervention. Maybe you can offer the same argument Steve Jobs did to Sculley... "Do you want to keep on selling sugared water or do you want a chance to change the world". If that does not resonate, pull the rip cord.


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## LifeIsBeautiful42

Hi Dogman,
Envy you being able to bring your dogs to work  Live and let live.
It's a great achievement that you managed to bring up your kids till today, despite the difficulties that you faced. Frankly not many people, including me, would have made it :smthumbup:


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## dogman

LifeIsBeautiful42 said:


> Hi Dogman,
> Envy you being able to bring your dogs to work  Live and let live.
> It's a great achievement that you managed to bring up your kids till today, despite the difficulties that you faced. Frankly not many people, including me, would have made it :smthumbup:


Thanks LIB, 
It's funny but some in here call it strength and other complimentary things, to stay and raise my kids and try to work through a situation that I really didn't understand for most of the time I've been in it. 

But the truth is, in my life, I've been criticized and told I'm weak and foolish. Let me list a few of the people that have voiced this opinion....my mother....my 2 sisters...one of my lifelong friends (35yrs)... This list actually goes on but they hold a place in my life that is not hurtful to me.

What this told me is that they don't care about my children, they don't care about what I want for those children. They only care about how my situation affects them. They struggle with my wife so they want me to leave her. Almost every single person who has criticized me, either to my face or behind my back has been divorced and almost every one has been the facilitator of that divorce.

If you know my story you know hat it matters to me that before my father died he told me I was doing the right thing and he was proud of me. That I was the only one of his kids to stay married and have it together.

I refuse to have people in my life that are only interested in how my life affects them. I want true friendship like I give to my friends. I want the best for them and their kids even if that means discomfort for me on some level.

I'll stop with that now, it's a sore spot for me. I invested in some people over the years that have disappointed me.
---------------------

The dogs I have now are bad a$$es. Hehe. The one, Gunner, has killed 25 groundhogs this season, 28 last year. I have a bunch of land and the dogs run free on my 15 acres and the neighboring 50 acres. I own a construction company so a job site is ok for them to hang out, but only one at a time or they get too rowdy. 

Thanks for all the support, LIB, how's your situation progressing? Have you narrowed down what causes the anxiety? A friend of mine has a similar situation and his wife is actually bipolar disorder. Hers is diagnosed and treated but still she is as you describe.


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## LifeIsBeautiful42

Hi Dogman, your Dad was right and it's wonderful to have a father like him.
Things have taken a U-turn, again. I'm just trying to hold myself together. Frankly at this moment I don't see any light yet in the tunnel. I have never been so emotionally stretched and exhausted. 
It's complicated and convoluted, it seems to be a case of not being able to get over her past traumatic experiences and it comes back to haunt her, like PTSD. Anything can trigger those feelings and shows up as anxiety, fear, anger, and hate.

Reading your posts has made me look at things with a different perspective and got me through the past weeks, thank you for that. Do check in when you can to let us know how you are doing too.



dogman said:


> If you know my story you know hat it matters to me that before my father died he told me I was doing the right thing and he was proud of me. That I was the only one of his kids to stay married and have it together.
> 
> ---------------------
> 
> Thanks for all the support, LIB, how's your situation progressing? Have you narrowed down what causes the anxiety? A friend of mine has a similar situation and his wife is actually bipolar disorder. Hers is diagnosed and treated but still she is as you describe.


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## dogman

LifeIsBeautiful42 said:


> Hi Dogman, your Dad was right and it's wonderful to have a father like him.
> Things have taken a U-turn, again. I'm just trying to hold myself together. Frankly at this moment I don't see any light yet in the tunnel. I have never been so emotionally stretched and exhausted.
> It's complicated and convoluted, it seems to be a case of not being able to get over her past traumatic experiences and it comes back to haunt her, like PTSD. Anything can trigger those feelings and shows up as anxiety, fear, anger, and hate.
> 
> Reading your posts has made me look at things with a different perspective and got me through the past weeks, thank you for that. Do check in when you can to let us know how you are doing too.


Let me tell you this. Every person is different so who knows if she can improve or not, only you have the knowledge to make that call.

5 years ago my situation with my wife got very bad and it lasted for a long time. It would explode 3 to 4 times a week. I kept what I called a "go bag" in my truck. It was cash...a lot...certain credit cards, and my hand gun. I was afraid to have the gun in the house because I feared she would kill me in my sleep. Maybe irrational but safety first, right? I also had gear out there for sleeping because I'd lose so much sleep that I'd have to find a place during the course of the day to park and sleep so I could function.
I ended up having to call a suicide hotline to get sorted out. I was terribly confused.
I called that hotline in 2009. In the last year it's improved to the point that the bad events only happen maybe once a month. Some other acting out goes on all the time but I'm cool with that stuff. It's not a deal breaker for me.
Even now with that once a month or so, Im ready to leave every time it happens. The way I see it, you have to draw a line and be firm when that line gets crossed. If she is uncontrollable then maybe your line is you leaving. I had to reach a point where I'm ok if this relationship ends, so I feel I'm here voluntarily not forced. It makes it easier to cope....for me.

....I still have my "go bag"


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## LifeIsBeautiful42

Hi Dogman, I can relate to it. Makes me wonder, we are miles apart but the experiences are quite similar. There were events involving the police, a knife, smashed car etc. We don't have kids and that's the only consolation.
I came across some videos, takes some time to finish them but I thought it was informative.
Loving Someone With Borderline Personality Disorder: A Model of Emotion Regulation - YouTube

Border _ : A compassionate documentary on Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) FULL MOVIE - YouTube


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## argyle

...seriously...you made a good call. Anyone keeping a gun in a house with a BPD should have their head examined. I've had enough trouble with knives.

--Argyle


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## PieceOfSky

argyle said:


> ...seriously...you made a good call. Anyone keeping a gun in a house with a BPD should have their head examined. I've had enough trouble with knives.
> 
> --Argyle


I have sort of been a coward when it comes to opening my eyes long enough to come to some conclusion about whether my wife has a personality disorder.

However, one of the more shocking dumps of hatred that came my way included the disclosure she sits in bed while I am sleeping and thinks about ways to kill me in my sleep.

Never had a gun in the house, but yes it would be gone by now. And, honestly, I sometimes worry about the knives.

It's a bit hard to accept I'm writing this, but every word is true.


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## argyle

...to be fair...in a non-ideal marriage, I'm, um, hoping that it is reasonably normal to, on reasonably rare occasions, have happy daydreams about your spouse's imminent death. Now, a BPD is probably more likely to mention those fantasies...but I'm hoping they aren't -that- crazy.

@dogman Sometimes people make stupid promises. Smart people break them. If you must keep them, then consider simply not tolerating abuse. Not tolerating abuse isn't simple, but there are a bunch of tools.
(a) Violence is dealt with by the police.
(b) Financial abuse is dealt with using separate accounts, and, after that, by the police.
(c) Emotional abuse is dealt with by walking out. And staying away for a while. Yes, you'll hurt her. And by arranging for a place to go in advance.
(d) Pointless conversations are dealt with by ending them.
(e) Running away is dealt with by acceptance - and by pointing to the door.
...et cetera.

--Argyle


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## 2galsmom

Good grief, you must get the guns out of the house. I had to. And I finally agree with Argyle. I made a bunch of promises, he asked me to because he knew I had loyalty and would not break them. I broke them to save my life.

Pieceofsky, when you are in this situation you keep waiting for them to change and choose to be healthy but it never happens. Don;t be so hard on yourself. Also, I can see where for society encourages men to dismiss the activities of a female with BPD are dismissed as being "female." Oh that is how they are. Oh no, that is NOT how we all are.

Walking out every time the emotional abuse occurs gets to be draining. You may find yourself unable to return at all only to find them "waiting" for your return to punish you. I spent 5 years doing that, it was quite expensive if I ran errands all that time. You will find that if you go to seek refuge at other people's homes they will tell you to leave your spouse and get frustrated with YOU.

Having a Go bag is no way to live, I know I did that for two years. I wish I had left sooner.

13 Signs Your Wife or Girlfriend is a Borderline or a Narcissist | A Shrink for Men

I realized today that I should have been braver years ago. I would have salvaged my "prime" years instead I walked on land mines. I encourage everyone in this position to be brave, once you get through it you will say I wish I would have done it sooner as well.


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## argyle

...my gut feeling is that staying is usually not a rational choice. Neither is waiting on change.

...however, even though many will disagree, I believe that demanding change on a timeline can be a relatively rational choice. In that case, setting a timetable and milestones will probably result in you leaving the R/S, but there's less doubt.

...my timelines were divided into 2 sixmonth segments, with evaluations in terms of # of incidents, followup in terms of behavioral change, et cetera. And a whole list of 'termination conditions' and 'expected consequences'. And my wife was pretty clear on the notion of 'divorce, and taking the kids' and 'pressing charges if you push things'.

...my wife got better. Not 'sane' better, but maybe 'extremely neurotic and annoying' better over the course of 3 years. Eg, her brother just had a WTF moment, where she actually spontaneously apologized to him for behaving badly. OTOH, she still had an argument with her mother when her mother didn't answer exactly the question she posed. The autism and the autism phobia are still problematic.

...it is kind of an advantage if they wait to punish you. That's the point where you just make other arrangements on a place to live and, after a few months, absent apology, get a divorce. Basically, the point of consequences is to not live with people who drain too much of your energy. The problem with the above procedure is that it took a lot of time with no assurance of success. There's no reason to waste time on crazy.

--Argyle


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## "joe"

2galsmom, this paragraph is very good:


2galsmom said:


> Pieceofsky, when you are in this situation you keep waiting for them to change and choose to be healthy but it never happens. Don;t be so hard on yourself. Also, I can see where for society encourages men to dismiss the activities of a female with BPD are dismissed as being "female." Oh that is how they are. Oh no, that is NOT how we all are.
> 
> ...
> 
> 13 Signs Your Wife or Girlfriend is a Borderline or a Narcissist | A Shrink for Men


of those, i went through 2, 6, 8, 9, 12, and the other-blaming noted at the end.


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## TikiKeen

Please bear in mind that when psychologists and psychiatrists make an official BPD diagnosis, one of the hallmarks which must be present is violence toward others or one's self. That includes drug/alcohol/food addiction, reckless driving. But, just because an addict presents with a huge fear of abandonment, panic attacks and rapid cycling emotions doesn't mean (s)he has BPD.

These symptoms overlap with bipolar, other PD's, PTSD, chronic depression, and anxiety. the rate of comorbidity is really high.

I'm not disagreeing that it might be present, nor that you all are feeling very real pain and danger. Looking at actions instead of words is a big deal.

I'll also mention that Schrieber's work has been called into question within the past few years, as her FMT license in California isn't valid. Be particular about experts and about choosing specialists. It can cost time, money and pain.


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## Uptown

TikiKeen said:


> Please bear in mind that when psychologists and psychiatrists make an official BPD diagnosis, one of the hallmarks which must be present is violence toward others or one's self.


Tiki, I generally agree with your post but this particular sentence of yours is incorrect. Violence is not required for a BPD diagnosis to be made. 

Granted, one of the nine traits (DSM-5) states _"Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior."_ That trait is not required, however, because the diagnostic manual only requires 5 of the 9 traits to be satisfied. Indeed, the vast majority of BPDers do not meet that trait because they are high functioning. Generally, it is observed only in the low functioning BPDers.

There also is another trait, _"Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights)."_ It does not require "violence," however, and thus is satisfied by verbal abuse or other intense emotional abuse. And, again, this is just one of 9 traits and therefore is not required.


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## Uptown

TikiKeen said:


> I'll also mention that Schrieber's work has been called into question within the past few years, as her FMT license in California isn't valid.


Tiki, yes, she lacks MFT licensure in CA. You raise a good point, which BPDfamily also has brought to public attention. Schreiber claims to have a BA in Human Behavior Psychology and an MA in Counseling Psych. Her response to BPDfamily is as follows:I completed a 6-year Marriage and Family Therapist private practice internship in 2001, so perhaps this is showing on record. I took both Calif. state boards, passed the first one and was preparing again for the second, when I met with a serious accident in 2007 which could have killed me--but thankfully only left me with painful bruises, scrapes and a bad concussion. Around this time, I surrendered my application for MFT licensure, because I wasn't capable of focusing, or sitting for that upcoming exam. The BBS refunded my application fee, upon receiving ambulance documentation of the incident. Life offered a detour along my path, and I chose to take it. I have never misrepresented myself or my services--as I'm not in the 'therapy' business. See GettinBetter.com's BORDERLINE PERSONALITY FORUM. ​


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## soulpotato

My therapist thought Schreiber was a nutcake.


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## Uptown

soulpotato said:


> My therapist thought Schreiber was a nutcake.


What I've always objected to in Schreiber's writing is her apparent confusion of BPDers with sociopaths (and, to a lesser extent, with narcissists). Namely, she describes BPDers as highly manipulative people -- spiders, actually -- who lie in wait for innocent Nons to walk into their traps.

Of course, there are some BPDers like that. Similarly, there are BPDers who speak French and have blond hair. But none of those characteristics have anything to do with their BPD traits. Rather, the wicked manipulation occurs because they are sociopaths who happen to also have strong BPD traits. My experience is that, although BPDers are controlling (to avoid abandonment and engulfment), they are too reactive and impulsive to be any good at manipulation.

As to BPDfamily, I find them to be very good at what they do (getting abused Nons out of toxic relationships). I nonetheless have objected for years to the black-white views that most of their members exhibit toward BPDers. They are so single-focused on helping the Nons to leave toxic relationships that they stress only the negative features of BPDers -- not the wonderful features that are so apparent in BPDers like Marilyn Monroe. It therefore says quite a bit about Schreiber's extreme view (toward BPDers) that even the BPDfamily managers find her to be too black-white.


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## soulpotato

Good post, Uptown. Yes, Schreiber has some amazingly negative characterizations of BPDers! That very same completely negative view of BPDers is what GF objected to from the first therapist she went to. GF was concerned that her therapist did not care about any existing relationship issues or GF's contribution to said issues, and ended up spending part of her sessions arguing with that particular therapist about what she was saying about BPDers. GF said she would not "run" away from me just because I had BPD, especially since she herself was not without issues. She also refused to let the therapist say I was a bad person, not worthwhile, or flat out crazy or sociopathic because I had BPD. I thought it was really great that she fought for me.


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## Uptown

SoulPotato, another Schreiber view that I object to is the notion that BPDers are frequent liars (a hallmark of sociopaths and narcissists). She fails to understand that the beauty of having strong BPD traits is that you rarely have to lie about anything. The reason is that, because a BPDer is filled with shame and self loathing, his unconscious mind protects him from seeing too much of reality. 

To avoid the painful release of shame, the unconscious projects thoughts and feelings onto the spouse. This is why BPDers genuinely believe most of the outrageous accusations coming out of their mouths -- because the subconscious does what is needed to prevent the conscious mind from having to deal with the truth.

This is not to say, however, that BPDers will not lie when cornered and having no other way to escape being humiliated with shame. My exW, for example, would occasionally lie for that reason. Doing so, however, carried with it a great penalty: SHAME. 

Hence, when a person has strong BPD traits, there usually is no need to lie and suffer the resulting feeling of shame (for having lied and thus having been "flawed"). The subconscious creates a fiction that is fully believable to the conscious mind because the fiction supports the intense feeling the BPDer is experiencing. I mention all this because, IMO, it is another example of how Schreiber confuses BPD with sociopathy.


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## TikiKeen

My apologies; I'm still stuck in notions given to me by a past therapist who equated threatening behavior with violence itself. A friend of mine who is a psychologist says Schrieber is "off her own rocker" and wonders why she's in the healing business at all.

And thank you all for today's discussion; I visit another BPD board that takes a gentler approach than BPDFamily, and have renewed my profile there. H is displaying some big symptoms, and as much as I love him, I'm struggling. This whole thread is a reference for me.

All I can do is work on me, and that's plenty. (I do hope he follows through on him actually showing up for IC, but I'm losing hope.)


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## soulpotato

I do agree that most BPDers tend to lean heavily towards being honest. When there is the self-deception and avoidance of reality, it is certainly first and foremost intended to protect the BPDer, yes. First priority in life for the BPDer would be to be able to escape being trapped in a painful reality that they can't bear, I imagine.

There's also shame associated with losing control, with hurting people, with struggling, etc. 

I don't think that a BPDer's issues with his/her partners should be discounted as always being outrageous or manufactured, however. For instance, the issues that I have with my partner are real, and that has been confirmed by the two therapists who saw her with me over multiple visits as well as eventually by GF herself. There are actually some that I had been convinced were all in my head that turned out to be real. Sometimes people want to say that the problems in a relationship are _all_ the fault of the person with the disorder, but I've learned that that's generally untrue.


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## soulpotato

Tiki, I hope your H follows through on the IC, too. There's not much you can do if he won't get help, and it is too much to ask of anyone to stay with someone who won't get help for harmful issues.


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## Uptown

soulpotato said:


> I don't think that a BPDer's issues with his/her partners should be discounted as always being outrageous or manufactured, however.


I agree, SoulPotato. When I said BPDers usually believe the outrageous accusations coming out of their mouths, my point was that such accusations usually are distorted perceptions, not deliberate lies. I certainly did not mean to imply that BPDers are always mistaken or always saying outrageous things.


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## "joe"

my bpd stbxw lied about her drinking, her spending, and her spare time activities, and lied about lying about them. the source of this may be shame, but they were lies, and the lies (and her cavalier attitude to the damage that the impulsive behavior she was lying about was doing to me and to us) made it impossible, in the end, for me to extend the support that she constantly demanded.


Uptown said:


> When I said BPDers usually believe the outrageous accusations coming out of their mouths, my point was that such accusations usually are distorted perceptions, not deliberate lies.


the effect is no less damaging: i know for a fact that my wife has been telling her genuinely believed distorted perceptions to her friends and family, and some of these are, objectively speaking, slanders.


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## soulpotato

Uptown said:


> I agree, SoulPotato. When I said BPDers usually believe the outrageous accusations coming out of their mouths, my point was that such accusations usually are distorted perceptions, not deliberate lies. I certainly did not mean to imply that BPDers are always mistaken or always saying outrageous things.


Right, I was mostly trying to say that they're not always distorted perceptions.  I've noticed with treatment that I'm experiencing fewer distortions.


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## Uptown

soulpotato said:


> Right, I was mostly trying to say that they're not always distorted perceptions.  I've noticed with treatment that I'm experiencing fewer distortions.


Yes, SoulPotato. Yet, even without treatment, a high functioning BPDer likely perceives most interpersonal experiences without significant distortion. And, with casual friends, business associates, and total strangers, BPDers may have very keen insight into other peoples' motivations because -- as long as their two fears are not triggered -- they may be very empathetic.

The HF BPDer's problem, then, is not that most perceptions are distorted. Rather, the problem is that the BPDer is unable to distinguish the distorted perceptions from the many perceptions that are not distorted. And, to a lesser extent, this is true for all of us -- which is why we Nons and treated BPDers try hard to keep our mouths shut whenever we are very angry. This, at least, is my understanding.


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## TikiKeen

Joe, it's also possible that your stbxw has a co-morbid issue going one as well. 

What I can see with H is that when the feelings hit, that is the only perception in his brain and psyche at that instant. It forces all others out. I can relate, as emotional flooding happens with my PTSD as well, just not quite to same degree. Dissociating/shutting down or diving into rage & acting out are how the B&W thinking shows up.

Not treating the illness lets it progress, indeed.

I know that I confused eggshell-walking too. I thought I was being healthy, but I was being avoidant of my own emotions. "Gentle" is the guide word for me right now, while making sure boundaries are solid.


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## LifeIsBeautiful42

My uBPDw is very capable of lying, but to her it's the truth (according to her) or a white lie. Mostly nothing said by her is perceived as bad or wrong, and if it's abusive it's necessary and justified. There seems to be a co-morbidity of BPD,NPD,BP,PTSD,OCD. Is it even possible?
Bringing up past unhappy experiences (looping conversations and discussions) has been occurring almost on a daily basis. She tells me it's therapeutic for her, but it is psychologically affecting me. Also she needs to follow the same routine, eat the same food, go the same places every weekend otherwise it can get to level 10, I tried suggesting eating at a different place last week, it went to 8 and back below 5, I can still see the look on the waiter's face. I know they try to avoid serving her, and eventually the most junior person gets the task. Also she had the same lunch for more than a year previously. What could be the underlying cause of this kind of repetitive behavior?


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## dogman

LifeIsBeautiful42 said:


> My uBPDw is very capable of lying, but to her it's the truth (according to her) or a white lie. Mostly nothing said by her is perceived as bad or wrong, and if it's abusive it's necessary and justified. There seems to be a co-morbidity of BPD,NPD,BP,PTSD,OCD. Is it even possible?
> Bringing up past unhappy experiences (looping conversations and discussions) has been occurring almost on a daily basis. She tells me it's therapeutic for her, but it is psychologically affecting me. Also she needs to follow the same routine, eat the same food, go the same places every weekend otherwise it can get to level 10, I tried suggesting eating at a different place last week, it went to 8 and back below 5, I can still see the look on the waiter's face. I know they try to avoid serving her, and eventually the most junior person gets the task. Also she had the same lunch for more than a year previously. What could be the underlying cause of this kind of repetitive behavior?


It's crazy how you just described my wife. I think the repetitive behavior is emotionally comforting. It's more about the action than it is the food or whatever. 
My wife said the same thing about bringing up past stuff, it's like therapy. But if I don't really want to go over it again, then I'm not there for her and I'm not sensitive to her needs. 
For us, it's everyday. It's actually not directed at me everyday but its the same looping pattern no matter what the subject matter.

She also has what I call timeline issues. She will start talking about something and she will be back in the state of mind she was in when it happened. Forgetting all the things that have happened since to negate the main issue. She conveniently forgets the stuff that makes the issue a non issue.

My wife would never dream of lying outright. Her perfectionism would mot allow it. She does remember things "incorrectly" though. But she will never admit that.


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## Uptown

LifeIsBeautiful42 said:


> There seems to be a co-morbidity of BPD,NPD,BP,PTSD,OCD. Is it even possible?


Yes, LIB. The vast majority of BPDers also have at least one co-occurring "clinical disorder" (e.g., bipolar, GAD, OCD, or PTSD) together with at least one co-occurring personality disorder. A recent large scale study of nearly 35,000 American adults found, for example:


74% of BPDers have at least one other PD,
75% have at least one comorbid mood disorder,
40% have NPD,
23% have OCD, and
40% have PTSD.

See Prevalence, Correlates, Disability, and Comorbidity of DSM-IV Borderline Personality Disorder: Results from the Wave 2 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions.


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## argyle

...I will mention that I tried gentleness first. That didn't work. Of course, people differ. It is definitely true that you can only work on yourself, but there's lots of 'reasonably healthy' approaches to life that don't work around borderlines. I found approaches that essentially reacted to boundary violations in much the same way I'd treat a stranger who'd mistreated me previously were most appropriate. And, I'm not kind to strangers who mistreat me repeatedly.

Medications are tricky with personality disorders. The way I think of them, they can sometimes take the edge off associated cormorbid symptoms to allow people to focus enough to actually make progress.

Honestly, I tend to think of BPDFamily as good people, but a bit too codependent and likely to think the best of their SOs. BPDs, probably colored by my experience, often develop (or learned previously) extremely abusive habits as coping mechanisms to deal with their mental issues. In a lot of cases, it isn't just projection or distorted thinking, it is also a decision to hurt other people to salve emotional wounds.

But, yah, most BPDs strike me as being terrible at manipulation. Schrieber has always struck me as off-base. Not 100%, but most. OTOH, some people with milder (probably non-diagnostic) PD traits can be absolutely horrible, manipulative, people. They're probably significantly more dangerous.

--Argyle


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## john117

It looks to me that some heavy duty BPD's may be too focused on staying high functioning to actually slow down and try a more manipulative approach to getting things done. 

For the same reason they are terrible liars and brutally honest (using their version of facts of course).


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## "joe"

TikiKeen said:


> Joe, it's also possible that your stbxw has a co-morbid issue going one as well.


hmmm ... but which one? she is an alcohol abuser. but whether that's independent of the BPD or part of it (along with other reckless/fulfilling behaviors) i can't tell. my psychiatrist thinks the alcoholism is paramount, my therapist thinks the BPD is paramount, and i tend to the latter. (in the aftermath of what happened to me, i've got both a psychiatrist and therapist.) 

the stbxw uses seroquel and clonopin daily. does that give an indication of what her co-morbidity might be? she once said she had OCD, but i've never seen a sign of it.



argyle said:


> In a lot of cases, it isn't just projection or distorted thinking, it is also a decision to hurt other people to salve emotional wounds.


since she left my stbx has done completely unnecessary things which only hurt (like giving me her daily routine in her new situation). and a video i saw by a recovered BPD states that they are vengeful.


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## soulpotato

"joe" said:


> since she left my stbx has done completely unnecessary things which only hurt (like giving me her daily routine in her new situation). and a video i saw by a recovered BPD states that they are vengeful.


Your STBX may be doing that for another reason than just being vindictive, but I can't speak for her. I've heard, read, and experienced that BPDers can be vengeful, especially when they feel spurned or rejected, but while many may have and express those tendencies, not all will. Not a comfort if you've been the target of a BPDer who has no problem seeking vengeance when feeling wronged, I know.


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## TikiKeen

I view alcohol as a poor mood stabilizer and coping mechanism for BPD, as well as a symtom along with BPD of earlier trauma. It's a rare take, but a psychologist friend said it's being looked at in terms of treatment modalities more often.

IME, BPD vengfulness is much different from NPD vengfulness. BPD sufferers tend to not be able to be as unemotional and intricately plan revenge as well as folks with NPD. The ego associated with NPD insists they come out looking white as snow, whereas BPD folks are so emotionally invested int heir current feelings that the vengfulness is spur-of-the-moment. Either way, it's incredibly painful to be on the receiving end.


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## john117

I'm sure some BPD's could plan something but the main ingredient in planing go anything is, well, the plan. And they're too vested to plan. Good thing for us spouses of BPD's. 

Same reason they seem as easy as pie to manipulate if approached correctly..


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## soulpotato

How do you manipulate your BPDedr, John? You've mentioned this several times and seem to take great pride in how skillfully you manipulate her...


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## LifeIsBeautiful42

On top of that, there are genuine medical issues. Doctors couldn't do a clear diagnosis, but it's real. I'm not in the medical field, but suspect there are also hormonal imbalance issues, even though tests didn't reveal it. Not looking good, boundary just got crossed this morning again and I got loads to clear at work. Need to sleep on it, and be ready for tomorrow.



Uptown said:


> Yes, LIB. The vast majority of BPDers also have at least one co-occurring "clinical disorder" (e.g., bipolar, GAD, OCD, or PTSD) together with at least one co-occurring personality disorder. A recent large scale study of nearly 35,000 American adults found, for example:
> 
> 
> 74% of BPDers have at least one other PD,
> 75% have at least one comorbid mood disorder,
> 40% have NPD,
> 23% have OCD, and
> 40% have PTSD.
> 
> See Prevalence, Correlates, Disability, and Comorbidity of DSM-IV Borderline Personality Disorder: Results from the Wave 2 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions.


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## john117

soulpotato said:


> How do you manipulate your BPDedr, John? You've mentioned this several times and seem to take great pride in how skillfully you manipulate her...


Different techniques at different times, mostly taking advantage of her very high altitude, low resolution view of the world rather than the infinitesimal level of detail the real world operates on. 

Also knowledge of how her decision making framework and mental models work - glad to see my formal education be put to a good cause . 

And, of course, my traditional chess playing approach to life, which is to be planning several moves ahead. Or the ability to completely detach emotions from decision making.

What I'm not talking about is lying, deception, projection, distortion, or any other traditional technique of people manipulation. These are easy to use and work for a while but not in the long term.

To me, BPD's seem too focused on some things and not focused at all on others. As I am ADHD myself, I find my tendency to try to focus on a huge number of things at the same time (look, a squirrel ) the exact opposite of her approach. That, too, helps.


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## argyle

...seroquel is good for anti-anxiety and has really helped my wife.
...clonazepam (sp) is a sedative that tends to help people sleep. One of its side effects is dysphoria, particularly in my wife. Dysphoria is much more unpleasant than the word sounds. A dysphoric BPD can be extremely unpleasant.

...generally speaking, substance addiction is said to make most mental issues so qualitatively worse that many therapists won't bother with diagnosis, treatment until the patient is off the substances.

...personally, I view the accommodations I make as forward planning. 

(1) Since my wife isn't reliable, we have lots of child care. Explained to her as: You aren't reliable, and I'd like to keep my job, so the kids go into an afterschool program. Besides, they need to learn stuff and you really aren't good with children.

(2) Okay. Early bedtimes are mandatory. You tend to pick fights at the end of the night, and I need my sleep.

(3) Oh. You're bringing up XYZ again. You know, we've had this conversation before. Here's how it goes...I'm not going to lie or shade my words. I'll just explain how you're completely wrong about XYZ, how this results from your mental illness, how the poor treatment you're getting from XYZ is a result of your own behavior, and walk away when you start screaming or breaking down. I'm kind of busy right now and don't have much time, so I'll talk over you if you interrupt. Do you really want to talk about this right now?

(4) Oh, you're sure this is important and we need to do this immediately? Well, remember your mental illness includes impulsivity and black and white thinking. You disagree? Well, if you want, I can call your family for a second opinion. How about your friends instead? I've heard you out and am actually okay with doing ABC, but I think we should sleep on it first. And I won't f*king budge until we do.

--Argyle


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## "joe"

thanks to all who have addressed my question.


argyle said:


> ...seroquel is good for anti-anxiety and has really helped my wife.
> ...clonazepam (sp) is a sedative that tends to help people sleep. One of its side effects is dysphoria, particularly in my wife. Dysphoria is much more unpleasant than the word sounds. A dysphoric BPD can be extremely unpleasant.


seroquel is also an antipsychotic, and my wife has occasional but bad mania. she had one episode during our marriage, but it was 6 months long. this happened because her incompetent shrink (who also told her not to meet with me after her infidelity and has said that she shouldn't think about returning, and who holds herself out as a weight-loss specialist though my wife hasn't lost an ounce) fiddled with her meds. 

i didn't know that clonazepam (which i also now carry for panic attacks, which i am having for the first time in my my life) could cause dysphoria. 



argyle said:


> ...generally speaking, substance addiction is said to make most mental issues so qualitatively worse that many therapists won't bother with diagnosis, treatment until the patient is off the substances.


also said by my psychiatrist



argyle said:


> (3) Oh. You're bringing up XYZ again. You know, we've had this conversation before. Here's how it goes...I'm not going to lie or shade my words. I'll just explain how you're completely wrong about XYZ, how this results from your mental illness, how the poor treatment you're getting from XYZ is a result of your own behavior, and walk away when you start screaming or breaking down. I'm kind of busy right now and don't have much time, so I'll talk over you if you interrupt. Do you really want to talk about this right now?


see, i did that too, and "the logical argumentation" was one of the official reasons she left.


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## argyle

...it is best to remember that the BPD leaving is not actually a bad outcome, overall.

I'm insane enough to stay married to a mentally ill woman. But, I'm not crazy enough to cater to her to try to get her to stay with me. Basically, if I'm behaving in a reasonably healthy fashion and she leaves, I'm fine with that. That said, there's some merit to being a bit soothing on occasion.

--Argyle


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## Conrad

argyle said:


> ...it is best to remember that the BPD leaving is not actually a bad outcome, overall.
> 
> I'm insane enough to stay married to a mentally ill woman. But, I'm not crazy enough to cater to her to try to get her to stay with me. Basically, if I'm behaving in a reasonably healthy fashion and she leaves, I'm fine with that. That said, there's some merit to being a bit soothing on occasion.
> 
> --Argyle


Argyle,

Case in point.

We had a discussion yesterday involving housing, finances, etc.

She asked me for a proposal on how to solve it.

I gave her my best shot.

By this morning, I had 5 texts and a lengthy email brimming with distrust.

She actually called on the landline to tell me the texts were there and to offer me the opportunity to talk.

We had our conversation and during it, I told her I was going to my cell phone and would delete our discussion thread so I wouldn't be reading the invective.

All good.

Yes, I'd been split black because of a good faith proposal that she slept on and distrust built up.

By not hammering her for behaving in EXACTLY the ways she despises (which she taught me - and I've given it right back to her for almost 2 years now), she interpreted my actions as being in good faith.

Much of this is trial and error. But, keep in mind the methods used to punish you are likely the only language she understands.


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## soulpotato

john117 said:


> Different techniques at different times, mostly taking advantage of her very high altitude, low resolution view of the world rather than the infinitesimal level of detail the real world operates on.
> 
> Also knowledge of how her decision making framework and mental models work - glad to see my formal education be put to a good cause .
> 
> And, of course, my traditional chess playing approach to life, which is to be planning several moves ahead. Or the ability to completely detach emotions from decision making.
> 
> What I'm not talking about is lying, deception, projection, distortion, or any other traditional technique of people manipulation. These are easy to use and work for a while but not in the long term.
> 
> To me, BPD's seem too focused on some things and not focused at all on others. As I am ADHD myself, I find my tendency to try to focus on a huge number of things at the same time (look, a squirrel ) the exact opposite of her approach. That, too, helps.


I'm glad you didn't mean that you were deliberately punching her buttons/pulling her strings! 

Your W's low res view of the world is particular to her, not something common to all BPDers. 

Nothing wrong with planning and anticipating, as long as it's not getting in the way of you being present/perceiving the moment for what it actually is. You sound like you are on the extreme logical end of the spectrum, so it's natural that there has to be some negotiation on both sides (since she is going to be more emotional).

Wouldn't that more be an attempt to communicate and accommodate her style to a degree? After all, one knows and accounts for how one's partner thinks and operates. It's true that BPDers will focus intensely on some things and not so much on others (their attention can get hooked on something), but other people can as well. I've met people who didn't have BPD who were WAY more tenacious and particular than I was about various subjects and ways of doing and saying things. 

I don't think your way or her way is necessarily better (though living at extremes, either logic or emotion, does no one any favors). You're just different people, with different strengths and weaknesses. I think some people can get too fixated on the BPD label and way over-generalize and stereotype. Nobody is without issues or problems, and we all contribute and play our parts, great and small. A BPDer has to own up and take responsibility for her disorder and the havoc she wreaks because of it, but that does not mean her partner/spouse is automatically without dysfunction or responsibility for their share of the relationship. I don't see a lot of "balanced" discussion on TAM about that, which is a shame.


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## pidge70

soulpotato said:


> I'm glad you didn't mean that you were deliberately punching her buttons/pulling her strings!
> 
> Your W's low res view of the world is particular to her, not something common to all BPDers.
> 
> Nothing wrong with planning and anticipating, as long as it's not getting in the way of you being present/perceiving the moment for what it actually is. You sound like you are on the extreme logical end of the spectrum, so it's natural that there has to be some negotiation on both sides (since she is going to be more emotional).
> 
> Wouldn't that more be an attempt to communicate and accommodate her style to a degree? After all, one knows and accounts for how one's partner thinks and operates. It's true that BPDers will focus intensely on some things and not so much on others (their attention can get hooked on something), but other people can as well. I've met people who didn't have BPD who were WAY more tenacious and particular than I was about various subjects and ways of doing and saying things.
> 
> I don't think your way or her way is necessarily better (though living at extremes, either logic or emotion, does no one any favors). You're just different people, with different strengths and weaknesses. I think some people can get too fixated on the BPD label and way over-generalize and stereotype. Nobody is without issues or problems, and we all contribute and play our parts, great and small. A BPDer has to own up and take responsibility for her disorder and the havoc she wreaks because of it, but that does not mean her partner/spouse is automatically without dysfunction or responsibility for their share of the relationship. I don't see a lot of "balanced" discussion on TAM about that, which is a shame.


Amen!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117

> I'm glad you didn't mean that you were deliberately punching her buttons/pulling her strings!


I delegate this to my younger daughter. As long as she brings excellent grades, she can get away with anything.



> Your W's low res view of the world is particular to her, not something common to all BPDers.


I wonder if she has a bit of Aspergers mixed in. Would not be the first or last math-happy person to do so. She gets focused very intensely on trivia that would bore most people to tears. Works great for her career (analytics consultant) but not for family life...



> You sound like you are on the extreme logical end of the spectrum, so it's natural that there has to be some negotiation on both sides (since she is going to be more emotional).


I am, primarily having developed this as a coping mechanism and after seeing both my parents grow up unhappy about the slightest things. My grandfather, on the other hand, a prankster that would make Saturday Night Live look serious by comparison, lived to be 80 and had a blast. I've managed to combine his attitude and lack of general maturity with lack of emotion (way to go :lol. 



> Wouldn't that more be an attempt to communicate and accommodate her style to a degree? After all, one knows and accounts for how one's partner thinks and operates.


I have done that to a degree that is a tribute to my persistence and even stupidity at times. At the same time, very little of my style is being accommodated. 



> It's true that BPDers will focus intensely on some things and not so much on others (their attention can get hooked on something), but other people can as well. I've met people who didn't have BPD who were WAY more tenacious and particular than I was about various subjects and ways of doing and saying things.


I only have a sample of one BPD to consider, but it seems to me that non-BPD's are capable of adjusting priorities up or down to fit the need. My BPD at least does not. Like my infernal lectures on Mental Workload. It's like a big part of her brain is permanently allocated to dealing with BPD, another big part with work, and maybe 10% allocated to the rest of her living. 



> I don't think your way or her way is necessarily better (though living at extremes, either logic or emotion, does no one any favors). You're just different people, with different strengths and weaknesses. I think some people can get too fixated on the BPD label and way over-generalize and stereotype. Nobody is without issues or problems, and we all contribute and play our parts, great and small.


Right, but I make sure my vices (video games, photography, and other teenager pastimes) do not interfere with the rest of reality. She does not. The BPD label by itself is not important. Heck, most people will see me and her and vote me off the island STAT. A polite, intelligent, attractive, well dressed (on occasion) mid 50's lady versus this guy in Costco oxfords, jeans, and trademark Einstein hair who's trying to solve the world's problems while playing Halo... No brainer. 



> A BPDer has to own up and take responsibility for her disorder and the havoc she wreaks because of it, but that does not mean her partner/spouse is automatically without dysfunction or responsibility for their share of the relationship. I don't see a lot of "balanced" discussion on TAM about that, which is a shame.


I have carried far more than my share of our relationship. Raising two daughters nearly alone was a revelation and an incredible privilege. I don't hold a grudge against her. She had some pretty bad things happen in her life, and with poor coping mechanism she needs me a lot more than I need her. My girls often chime in to dump her, but that's not me. 

Maybe because I spent a decade studying cognitive psychology, I also see this as a great opportunity to observe how her decision making and problem solving (frameworks & mental models for example) work vs mine. Ultimately I know what she wants and how she reacts pretty well and use it to make her life a bit better, even if I don't get anything in return. Or nearly anything... I doubt anyone else would put up with her antics. 

My rewards are fat tuition checks for the girls, and the Boy Scout feel of helping the old lady cross the street...


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## argyle

@john
...just gonna say...after a lot of reading on Asperger's - your wife's behavior fits on the spectrum really well. Not saying it makes much difference, but, yah. The autistic spectrum is pretty broad. Not saying she's not also BPD, but...with my wife...she combined...
(a) very low mental flexibility, black and white thinking, extraordinarily low empathy, blah...autism symptoms
with 
(b) what appears to be a constant mental loop of:
'Something went wrong...(i'm autistic...no!!!)*...explain the problem some other way or self-medicate' that occupies about 90% of her mental energy.
(c) BPD symptoms

And, yah, single parenting has its pluses. I do worry about the long-term effects of an emotionally unavailable mother.

DBT helped with (c). However, not so much with (a) and (b).

I'm going to guess that john's wife's oddities are actually extremely predictable. With my wife, about 90% of her dysfunction is predictable enough that you could duplicate it with a chat program. Given that knowledge, a workable strategy is to stop treating dysfunction as actual communication, but more like a choose-your-own adventure book and memorize procedures that reduce suffering.

That approach, from my limited perspective, has pluses and minuses. On the bright side, it accepts reality - and expecting an, eg, autistic person, to make significant changes in this regard is unrealistic. Frankly, there have been a lot of discussions where you could have replaced me with a bobble-headed doll and my wife wouldn't have noticed. (Memorably, the one where I did the laundry and came back half an hour later to find her still talking over the phone to me.)

The first downside is that you're having discussions where neither person is actually interacting with another person. The second downside follows from the first, in that, to minimize suffering, you're accommodating dysfunctional communications. I prefer approaches that minimize suffering, subject to the constraints of: honesty, functional and healthy communication, and zero tolerance for abuse. Unfortunately, for my wife, in the short-term, that essentially maximized suffering because:
(a) she wanted my help to lie to herself
(b) she has extreme abandonment issues
(c) she has a habit of abusive communication
(d) the healthy response to abuse involves leaving
In the long-term, however, repeated, extremely painful negative reinforcement seemed to serve as an incentive for positive change.

Regarding balanced views of BPDs and R/S dysfunction in marriages, I'm kind of split. On one hand, people who stay with BPDs are crazier than average - and sometimes crazier than the BPD. And, anyways, essentially everyone is doing something wrong in a R/S. And, straight up invalidation of a BPD's mildly legitimate complaints doesn't help. That said, after many years of marriage counseling, punctuated by 5 therapists having rage fits at my wife and either yelling or refusing to see us... There were four overall conclusions:
(a) Argyle is an annoying man. And I'd really like to spend more time on advising him. There's often a grain of truth in your complaints, BPDw.
(b) However, there's always a mountain of BS.
(c) 90% of the problems here are you, BPDw.
(d) Argyle's main problems aren't related to your complaints. The guy needs to set limits better and confront you when you're behaving poorly. Basically too nice. Or divorce you...I can find you guys a great mediator. 

Part of objective reality, as far as I can tell, is that, absent strong evidence, it is reasonable to assume that, if a reasonably sane non and a BPD disagree about fault, the non is correct more than 90% of the time. Distorted perceptions and a tendency towards blame do not make for good judgement.

--Argyle
*appears to be related to her parents' interactions. The violence definitely was.


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## john117

Actually you are right on all counts. The "something went wrong" mental loop is what makes her an amazing professional (at the expense of zero life outside work) because by being paranoid about something going wrong she goes to NASA-level efforts to ensure her work is right. Unless we're talking NASA, and we're not, working 80 hours a week while getting paid for 40 leaves much to be desired... But without work she goes crazy (literally). Weekends used to be a problem in the past, not now. She works right thru them.

I do follow procedures to help minimize her "suffering". No point making a bad situation worse. Thankfully her behavior is so predictable and "sheltered" it is relatively easy to manage. 

As I mentioned earlier, negative reinforcement did work pretty well to motivate her to make positive changes. Once she figured out that any acting out would result in a similarly bad response she kind of withdrew to her work...

My older girl spent several years in therapy, and the wife and I tagged along on occasion. After a few sessions of "family" therapy focused on my wife the BPD was confirmed. Unfortunately the wife did not want to try anything to get out of the quagmire, DBT or CBT or anything like it. In general she is extremely resistant to change. 

I did talk to the therapist more and she did find my tendency to over-analyze, predict, and game-theory everything highly frustrating. She was fascinated with the coping mechanisms I developed... Just like Argyle, I was basically told I tolerate a lot more than I should, etc etc. Well, easy for her to say. She married a super rich guy, had a few kids, and divorced the guy after the last one got out of college... I wish.

I don't mind the dealing with BPD that much. Beats being married to some wench in my home country, teaching Fitt's Law to hapless undergrads in some obscure college, and depending on Mrs. Wench and her rental properties to survive. Several of my friends did just that and they're worse off than I am.


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## LifeIsBeautiful42

Hi Dogman, it does make me wonder how people from different parts of the world who grew up in totally different environment and social settings, can exhibit so similar behavior. Maybe it is a medical condition after all.


dogman said:


> It's crazy how you just described my wife. I think the repetitive behavior is emotionally comforting. It's more about the action than it is the food or whatever.
> My wife said the same thing about bringing up past stuff, it's like therapy. But if I don't really want to go over it again, then I'm not there for her and I'm not sensitive to her needs.
> For us, it's everyday. It's actually not directed at me everyday but its the same looping pattern no matter what the subject matter.
> 
> She also has what I call timeline issues. She will start talking about something and she will be back in the state of mind she was in when it happened. Forgetting all the things that have happened since to negate the main issue. She conveniently forgets the stuff that makes the issue a non issue.
> 
> My wife would never dream of lying outright. Her perfectionism would mot allow it. She does remember things "incorrectly" though. But she will never admit that.


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## john117

LifeIsBeautiful42 said:


> Hi Dogman, it does make me wonder how people from different parts of the world who grew up in totally different environment and social settings, can exhibit so similar behavior. Maybe it is a medical condition after all.


Basic human behavior is the same regardless. It just presents differently...

BPD behavior in essence is driven by the twin pillars of abandonment and encroachment. Those are fairly basic fears, nothing cultural or social about them.


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## soulpotato

Argyle and John, interesting responses. What both my partner and I have come to see is that there's a whole lot of give and take, and nobody is automatically right or wrong (and a BPDer is not always in BPD land, so one can't say it's perception distortions right off the bat). Much more important than right or wrong is communication and working to resolve problems cooperatively.



john117 said:


> I only have a sample of one BPD to consider, but it seems to me that non-BPD's are capable of adjusting priorities up or down to fit the need. My BPD at least does not. Like my infernal lectures on Mental Workload. It's like a big part of her brain is permanently allocated to dealing with BPD, another big part with work, and maybe 10% allocated to the rest of her living.


It depends on the BPDer, as with everything else. Personally, I am pretty capable with adjusting priorities, but if I am doing too many high-priority things with not enough resources, something will eventually suffer. I have learned where that line is, and how to communicate that I am close to it or over it. BPD can be a resource hog, no doubt. Especially during stressful times. But learning to deal with it better ensures that it takes up less of the BPDer's time and energy and also impacts their loved ones less. It's unfortunate that your wife is not interested in DBT, CBT, etc.


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## john117

Are you talking external priorities (work) or internal (family or self)? My wife's experience is more about internal priorities. 

Today's example. I came home at 4:30 to wrap up some painting. She left at 4:30 to go for her walk. Then we went to Costco together. She did not stop one second talking about the perceived evils of her project manager. Right before entering she asked me if I had contacted our daughter at home who was sick with stomach flu and vomiting 

So, from 4:30 to 7:00 PM our younger one was in bed sick and she did not see fit to tell me. But she gave me the complete play by play of her work day. Her work priorities and project management are flawless, needless to say.

There isn't enough DBT's and CBT's in the world to get basic reasoning into her head


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## pidge70

You know what sucks worse than a BPD wife? Being a BPD mother with a BPD daughter......oh the joy!


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## soulpotato

john117 said:


> Are you talking external priorities (work) or internal (family or self)? My wife's experience is more about internal priorities.
> 
> Today's example. I came home at 4:30 to wrap up some painting. She left at 4:30 to go for her walk. Then we went to Costco together. She did not stop one second talking about the perceived evils of her project manager. Right before entering she asked me if I had contacted our daughter at home who was sick with stomach flu and vomiting
> 
> So, from 4:30 to 7:00 PM our younger one was in bed sick and she did not see fit to tell me. But she gave me the complete play by play of her work day. Her work priorities and project management are flawless, needless to say.
> 
> There isn't enough DBT's and CBT's in the world to get basic reasoning into her head


That's not good. Maybe she especially struggles with judgment in those areas. I don't have children, but if my partner is very sick or needs help, I drop everything and go to help her. I have no problem with leaving work to do that. Work gets left at work, I usually avoid OT, and I only rarely vent about aggravating situations. I mostly keep it to amusing anecdotes. 

Both internal and external, though usually more internal. (When it comes to myself vs others, I tend to choose others over myself.) I've previously had trouble with appropriately prioritizing other people - how important should they be, how much attention they should get, how much I should give, etc. Like, they're not baby birds. Just because they demand doesn't mean they should get. Boundary stuff, I guess. I can lose the sense of myself if I'm not careful and end up in bad places. When I was trying to work a full-time job, have an active social life, maintain a serious romantic relationship, and maintain a 4.0 in college, it was tough. That's one of the major internal/external conflicts I had. While I managed to do what I set out to do, it put a huge strain on my relationship with my partner (and me, of course) and I didn't realize it until later. I have to be careful about how much I sign up for. 

Maybe if your wife ever started DBT, it would help her. You never know.


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## soulpotato

Pidge, while I've had plenty of contact with other people with BPD, I've never had another family member with BPD. I don't know what that's like. Pretty challenging, I imagine, especially in a parent-child relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117

What a difference BPD makes. In the early 90s we both worked 4 days a week, both went back to college to complete our doctorates full time, had a second child, and survived on coffee and fast food for 3-4 years. Everything got done with minimal heroics.

With BPD in her case ten years later around 2007 there's no planning, no prioritization. No anything. There's a giant sinkhole called work and nothing else. 

To make things worse, while she had some traits -dismissed as cultural etc- she had full onset BPD manifest itself relatively late in the game, late 30's, after some very unfortunate events. (Went fairly rapidly from a mild symptom here and a mild symptom there to the full thing in a year) That did not give her time to develop coping mechanisms that longer terms BPD's could deploy. So it is not a big surprise that she is where she is. 

I'm hoping to read up on DBT or CBT myself to try some things with her and see if she can seethe light a bit. The catch is that after a rather unorthodox approach (respond in kind) I followed back then she does not flare up as much but has also withdrawn considerably. 

We'll see...


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## soulpotato

Yes, BPD makes a huge difference in someone's life, and in the lives of loved ones. 

The intensity can dial up or down over time depending on life events. Especially triggering events can be catastrophic for a BPDer, especially if they aren't in the care of a therapist or haven't received appropriate treatment.

Have you seem this website, John? bpdrecovery.com. 

There are DBT workbooks readily available on Amazon if you're interested. I think some of them may have the "take a look inside" feature so that you could get an idea. I've also seen them in local bookstores.

It really sounds like work is her escape. She's probably using it as a wedge between the two of you (to protect and distract herself). She may prefer work instead of connecting with you because it's something she can be good at and not be deeply hurt by. Something I've found critical to my ability to negotiate or be connected is that I feel that someone is safe and that I can trust them (even if I might struggle with that sometimes). Could be similar for her. Have you ever (gently) tried to discuss her withdrawal?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## argyle

Prioritization can be an issue for my wife. I kind of guess those problems are closer to autism though. I've met perfectly charming socially ept BPDs with excellent (sorta) people sense. I've also met autistics with BPD-like behaviors - and that mostly describes my wife. Dunno. Some of the communications sections in books on autistics have been pretty helpful - although they're also mostly common sense.

Truth is that respond in kind is usually better than enabling (by, eg, sitting there and taking abuse), but probably not optimal. Dunno. BPDs are not easy people to live with. 

And they vary a lot. I suspect that john and I have a different perspective because our partners, beyond the BPD, have the empathic abilities of rocks and, in most ways, similar levels of vulnerability. In other ways, they're absolutely terrified and terribly vulnerable. But, in an awful lot of ways, my wife is far less sensitive than I am.

--Argyle


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## soulpotato

Argyle, it's true that a lot of BPDers can be charming and have excellent people sense in certain situations/capacities (when their feelings aren't involved, basically).

There's a difference between enabling and communicating compassionately and effectively with boundaries. I'm not sure that responding in kind will "work" in the way you would hope in the long run. It may seem on the surface that it is getting the result you want, but what is the cost? BPDers aren't easy to live with, no, but you guys decided to do it. So it must be worth the difficulty for you (and the rewards). 

Yes, BPDers definitely vary a lot. There's a huge range. People sometimes don't realize that. We're all pretty different from each other and have our own sets of skills and problems, even with some commonalities in disordered behavior. Knowing one BPDer is really just knowing one BPDer.

Arygle, I wish I could talk to your wife (and John's) to get a better sense of them as people. As is, I can only take shots in the dark here. A BPDer is very vulnerable, but will usually protect that vulnerability ferociously, especially from those she's uncertain of. It's the same for her empathy. BPDers can be very empathic and caring, but it's usually two things that get in the way of that: self-protection, and trying to deal with the uproar inside. 

I know you both deal with a lot from your wives and feel frustrated and abused. I can't really know what you experience. But your sensitivity and empathy for them don't always come through here.  I liked John's recent post, #217, though. It sounded different, more open and caring.


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## argyle

...meh...I thought about respond in kind a long time ago, but decided it was mostly a bad idea. My guess is that leaving upon abuse, with arrest if escalation, is more effective long-term, even though the short-term is more difficult. I can see that john has a survival strategy, I'm just not certain it is a good idea.

...in terms of empathy, it took a long time with a persistent marriage counselor for my wife to understand that being hit by a plastic baseball bat could hurt my feelings. As far as anyone could tell, it was honest confusion. She is terribly jealous and insecure socially, with high anxiety about many things, but also as able to parse other human behaviors as a rock. A lot of her anxiety is more confusion than anything else. Like, 'Why is my friend upset?' 'I did ignore her calls, text, and emails for 6 months after agreeing to be a bridesmaid. So what?' I think the technical term is theory of mind.

--Argyle


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## john117

My "respond in kind" strategy is a coping strategy - I do not think I'm in pure survival mode. Yet . It is just frustrating to repeat the same stuff over and over again to her. Like asking her to not shout when talking....

Also my wife is hardly the type to try to cause harm to anyone. Just verbal barrage  thankfully we live in a big, well insulated detached home where she can practice her decibels without disturbing others.

The withdrawal is worrisome - but as time goes by a lot of her social skills weaken. I can take up some of the slack but not all. We are reaching a point that any difference of opinion results in her starting to talk very loudly (cultural - lots of people from her country seem to do that) followed by completely closing her mind to alternative views. This leaves either lying, giving up, or manipulation to get things done - I typically do the last...

All in the life...


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## LifeIsBeautiful42

The shouting is a big problem for me, and for anyone I would think.Looking back I had done it too,and realize it was usually an accumulation of frustration and anger that got bottled up and the cork came off.I'm trying the suggestions from below and there are some signs of improvement.
End the Cycle of Conflict, Anger, and Rage - Alan E. Fruzzetti, Ph.D


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## john117

The catch in my case is that the feisty Dr. Mrs. BPD comes from a culture where one is expected to be 'loud'. And gesture a lot and be animated like a 4 year old (imagine that). And some people may allow her to talk this way. Eventually she met a manager who was not willing to put up with this kind of behavior and she ran into major problems at work with her. To be honest, I did not blame her.

Trying to discuss anything usually results in (a) voice loudness up by 10 dB (b) liberal use of profanity (and you thought women don't curse ) and (c) insecurity and fear kicks in the reptilian brain and good luck getting anything out of her... Shouting does not frazzle me but it is tiring. Eventually it is quicker and easier to manipulate her into what I want to do (for most things) rather than argue my case.


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## soulpotato

I rarely shout, and don't like raising my voice. It is my non-BPD partner who does so. I've tried different things to get it to stop (I looked at your link, LB42), but haven't found anything that really seems to work. (This is how she has been interacting with her family for years, so I guess it's pretty entrenched.) I hate being yelled at.

LOL, John, what gave you the idea that women don't curse!


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## john117

I was thinking Southern Belles, not Central Asian Belles 

Just a way to express frustration I suppose... Maybe Argyle's idea of home boxing ring has merit after all


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## jerseygirl123

Walking on Egg Shells is an excellent book. Read it. My husband and daughter both have borderline, and are totally different. My daughter cuts. My husband wants to be someone else. He does not like who he is. He went so far as getting the papers to change his name, but I told him to stop. He started a site online where he pretended to me because he says no one would talk to him if he was himself. He is hyper critical of me. Everything is always my fault. It's amazing. I would see if you can get her to go to a psychiatrist and see if she is bipolar or borderline and work from there. Borderline people are very hard to deal with in a relationship, and may people leave them for that reason.


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## argyle

This is a really common problem...one thing I work on...not always successfully...is breaking the cycle of avoidance/aggression. Beyond the crazy, my wife comes from a culture where people show their emotions and curse, scream, and punch each other in the street. I don't.

Her mostly sane relative has beaten an obnoxious drunken woman into unconsciousness and had the evening end with the police offering to charge her with 'being annoying.'

Unless I'm displaying appreciable amounts of emotion, she feels ignored and abandoned... And dominant, which leads to a mixture of frantic anxiety and an abusive script she inherited from her parents.

Now, I favor trying to develop healthy habits long-term, regardless of how much things hurt short-term, so, eh... What I've been trying to do is practice expressing anger and negative emotions in an open and non-abusive way. Basically, avoiding my family's habit of bottling and exploding.

Meh. There are 2 big problems with this. The first is that I tend to repress emotional expression to keep control of my temper. Eh. The second is that my wife has pretty divergent responses to emotion. She'll either communicate reasonably effectively - or resort to fists. Sadly, it isn't just me, but happens with her family too.

--Argyle


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## LifeIsBeautiful42

argyle said:


> Unless I'm displaying appreciable amounts of emotion, she feels ignored and abandoned... And dominant, which leads to a mixture of frantic anxiety and an abusive script she inherited from her parents.
> Now, I favor trying to develop healthy habits long-term, regardless of how much things hurt short-term, so, eh... What I've been trying to do is practice expressing anger and negative emotions in an open and non-abusive way. Basically, avoiding my family's habit of bottling and exploding.
> --Argyle


Hi Argyle,
I agree that the family dynamics is one of the causes,my W does the same and if what she told me is true,some of her family members have anger and stress management issues, either at her or others. Can you share how you express anger and negative emotions by open and non-abusive ways? Recently I had an emotional outburst,speaking what I felt in maybe a louder than usual tone,and her attitude changed completely and she backed down, temporarily. I didn't really like that episode because I don't like expressing angry emotions in order for her to normalize. It's like turning the tables and that doesn't help things.


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## argyle

Work in progress...but...
I'm F*King FURIOUS.
I'm feeling hurt.
That is just not ok with me.
Please get out of my face.
Yes I'm yelling. Back off if you want me to speak quietly.
Don't you dare tell me what I'm thinking.

--Argyle


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## dogman

For my situation, any expression of anger, while it may win the moment, it's held against me forever. She will bring it up long after her behavior that led to it is forgotten. She will try to make me sound like a raving lunatic.

An extreme example from a few years ago. She had me up all night and it was about 3 am. She is screaming at me all kinds of awful SH!t. Stomping around the room, she storms at me and starts punching me. Hammering at me. I flip for a split second and push her away. I'm a big guy, and I was torqued up so I pushed harder than I realized and she went to the floor immediately. She stopped everything for the night. But years later she will still bring up how I was abusive by pushing her.

I don't care who we are talking about but you can not get someone emotionally twisted up and then strike them without repercussions.
I tell her, I'm sorry I pushed you but if you try to hit me again I will do the same thing again.

I realize I introduced physical abuse to this discussion but the same applies with losing your temper. They will turn it into you being wrong for losing it. They rarely turn the mirror back on themselves to see their behavior as the cause. IT'S ALWAYS SOMEONE ELSE'S FAULT. THE WORLD IS AGAINST THEM.

By the way, things are calm here. Some minor hiccups but no meltdowns for some time.


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## PieceOfSky

argyle said:


> Don't you dare tell me what I'm thinking.


This makes me wonder...

Not sure how to say it...

Many many many of the difficulties in our marriage stem from the presumptions my wife makes about what I am thinking or what I would do or not do, or misunderstanding/misinterpretation of what I said. I mean I feel like she is having a relationship with someone else that looks like me and sounds like me, but entirely exists on her head. Any attempt to clarify fails, at least while the resulting dumping of anger at this fictitious version of me is falling on top of me. Any successful clarification later gets forgotten by the next time.

Is this sort of thing typical of BPD, and not so common for non-BPDs?


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## john117

That's basically it. I have barely changed in the 3 decades we know each other by I am often painted in ways that leave much to be desired as if t were someone else.. 

It all darts with very rigid stereotypes and impossible, magical thinking level expectations, so good luck getting past that.


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## soulpotato

Piece, BPDers will tend to interpret with a negative bias when there's difficulty or conflict in relationships. This is fear/self-protection driven. I know I still have that little voice in my head trying to tell me that people are thinking and feeling bad things about me. Therapy and DBT have helped me to develop some resistance to that, and to "create" an opposing voice to cancel the other out (not completely, but it's definitely better). Learning to communicate from an open, vulnerable place when I need to confirm things rather than a place of defensiveness and "push"/aggression has made things easier on both me and those I care about.

I'm familiar with the "emotion dump", too. Your wife probably doesn't realize how much this affects you. If she can learn to communicate with carefully chosen words instead of emotional dump/flood... Which is not easy by any means. I'm still working on that, but my partner says she greatly appreciates not getting swamped in my negative emotions, lol.

Also, forgetting the clarifications - when a BPDer has a particularly strong impression of something, regardless of whether or not it's later explained to be different from what they thought, a return to the original feeling/thought may still occur. This may have something to do with how our brains are wired (I have a book that suggests that physical brain differences in BPDers mean they experience things for longer than is normal, like a feedback loop). My partner has to remind me sometimes when she already "corrected" my impression of something she said, etc. I literally can't remember that it changed because my original impression was so strong! So then I have to re-run the "update" through my mind for a while to make sure it doesn't revert again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soulpotato

Dogman, BPDers can certainly come to be self-aware and take ownership of their words and actions, and the effects of those words and actions upon others. We won't all stick to putting fault and blame on other people. It is hard not to think the world is a bad/dangerous place that's out to get you when it's what you've learned and experienced from an early age. Nothing is safe.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117

> It is hard not to think the world is a bad/dangerous place that's out to get you when it's what you've learned and experienced from an early age. Nothing is safe.


Ultimately, it takes less time to do a threat analysis in a particular situation and assess FoF (Friend or Foe) rather than have shields up 24/7 and forcing other people to deal with you.

I don't think my wife experienced this at an early age - more in her 20's where largely because of her own actions for a couple of years, which she won't acknowledge) but any business or personal transaction is assumed to be done with the specific purpose of skrewing her. 

Her approach is basically that it's easier to NOT trust anyone or anything, including your own family, and go from there. This creates catastrophic side effects regarding intimacy, teamwork, family relationships, and the like.


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## soulpotato

John, it's a little complicated...one can't just decide not to be on guard or not to feel threatened. That's part of why the therapy is needed, to rewrite programming that is no longer useful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soulpotato

Also, with BPD, the seeds would've been planted in childhood. The fact that it remained relatively "dormant" for so long with only minor issues may be a little unusual, but I could see how that could occur in the right circumstances. You're saying she brought harm/negativity? down upon herself because of her own actions...self-destructiveness and poor impulse control are definitely part and parcel of BPD.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117

Or one - BPD or non - could simply learn to remove emotions from decision making to as great an extent as possible and use logic instead.


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## john117

Yep. She was in a hurry to finish college for no obvious reason so she piled on a lot of difficult classes while working. She did not listen (initially) to me or to her adviser, did not drop classes before the deadline, her grades dropped (self destruction 101) and her family cut off her college money (abandonment 101). I helped her see the right approach which was to slow down and do well on a handful of classes... (White knight 101).

Things went ok for 25 years with only hints of BPD (explained away as ethnic / cultural / social characteristics) till a few unfortunate events caused her to flip about 6 years ago.

Ironically, when my parents met her for the first few times she was exemplary. The last time my father was here, tho, maybe 10 years ago right before he passed on, she was a bit too much on the BPD scale and my father told me he could see trouble ahead. As a retired high rank police officer he had an uncanny ability to read people. His warning came a bit too late I guess.


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## pidge70

john117 said:


> Yep. She was in a hurry to finish college for no obvious reason so she piled on a lot of difficult classes while working. She did not listen (initially) to me or to her adviser, did not drop classes before the deadline, her grades dropped (self destruction 101) and her family cut off her college money (abandonment 101). I helped her see the right approach which was to slow down and do well on a handful of classes... (White knight 101).
> 
> Things went ok for 25 years with only hints of BPD (explained away as ethnic / cultural / social characteristics) till a few unfortunate events caused her to flip about 6 years ago.
> 
> Ironically, when my parents met her for the first few times she was exemplary. The last time my father was here, tho, maybe 10 years ago right before he passed on, she was a bit too much on the BPD scale and my father told me he could see trouble ahead. As a retired high rank police officer he had an uncanny ability to read people. His warning came a bit too late I guess.


Has your wife actually been diagnosed as a BPD'er?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117

Yes... We all participated in "family" therapy when my older girl and her therapist spent a lot of time individually with each of us in the process of understanding our fairly complex family dynamics (our health plan's $5 deductible was our friend ) 

The end result was that (a) she was diagnosed as BPD (b) the therapist did not treat BPD's (c) wife was not interested in therapy suggesting instead "you are all crazy" etc and (d) I could have saved the therapist's time and our insurance deductibles by simply referring to my trusty DSM-IV which suggested her as BPD hands down.

The therapist provided a referral to another therapist who did DBT in the same practice but wife took the high road and that was that.

The most startling part of nearly 3 years of therapy was that our younger daughter was found to basically have skipped adolescence altogether and has a stunning level of maturity well beyond her years.


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## Conrad

dogman said:


> For my situation, any expression of anger, while it may win the moment, it's held against me forever. She will bring it up long after her behavior that led to it is forgotten. She will try to make me sound like a raving lunatic.
> 
> An extreme example from a few years ago. She had me up all night and it was about 3 am. She is screaming at me all kinds of awful SH!t. Stomping around the room, she storms at me and starts punching me. Hammering at me. I flip for a split second and push her away. I'm a big guy, and I was torqued up so I pushed harder than I realized and she went to the floor immediately. She stopped everything for the night. But years later she will still bring up how I was abusive by pushing her.
> 
> I don't care who we are talking about but you can not get someone emotionally twisted up and then strike them without repercussions.
> I tell her, I'm sorry I pushed you but if you try to hit me again I will do the same thing again.
> 
> I realize I introduced physical abuse to this discussion but the same applies with losing your temper. They will turn it into you being wrong for losing it. They rarely turn the mirror back on themselves to see their behavior as the cause. IT'S ALWAYS SOMEONE ELSE'S FAULT. THE WORLD IS AGAINST THEM.
> 
> By the way, things are calm here. Some minor hiccups but no meltdowns for some time.


Once you get angry, you end up apologizing for what she did.


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## soulpotato

john117 said:


> Or one - BPD or non - could simply learn to remove emotions from decision making to as great an extent as possible and use logic instead.


The goal is to balance emotion and logic, but it's not that easy. Not everyone is the same. We all have different capabilities and basic templates, which have to be worked with. A highly emotional person can't just start acting like a Vulcan. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soulpotato

john117 said:


> The end result was that (a) she was diagnosed as BPD (b) the therapist did not treat BPD's (c) wife was not interested in therapy suggesting instead "you are all crazy" etc and (d) I could have saved the therapist's time and our insurance deductibles by simply referring to my trusty DSM-IV which suggested her as BPD hands down.


It's a bit hard to accept that one has BPD at first, you must understand. Especially with the huge stigma attached to it. If you tell someone they have it, they are not going to be like, "Oh, okay, that's fine then, just need to fix this up a bit." First, is the source trustworthy to the BPDer? If not, it's usually rejected. Even if they do trust the person telling them, it's not easy to accept - for a lot of reasons. 



john117 said:


> The most startling part of nearly 3 years of therapy was that our younger daughter was found to basically have skipped adolescence altogether and has a stunning level of maturity well beyond her years.


That actually sounds familiar. I had to take care of my mother in a lot of ways early on, so I became pretty good at handling certain things.


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## john117

I know. To this day she can't pronounce BPD let alone acknowledge that there is a chance she has it or match behaviors with symptoms. Or even get a 2nd opinion.

And this is someone who will spend tons of money on any medical wild goose chase (hypochondriacs anonymous )

But sometimes the rewards are worth it. I spent yesterday evening cooking some rather nice European pastries. She kept harping about being careful to not drop anything on the floor, like 20 times or so. She even mopped the kitchen when I was done cleaning up, all while complaining.

Finally I ran out of patience and gave her an earful. After a few hours of added stonewalling for good cause she apologized.


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## LifeIsBeautiful42

Last Sunday there was a blowout, because I needed to enforce a boundary and couldn't take the accusations lying down. The validation and SET stuff went out the window. But I was being mindful not to engage in shouting or raging. Took a short timeout outside. Went back, things calmed down. Monday morning it went off again, colleagues were calling me, left but couldn't work all day. Went back and spoke to her calmly. She was ok then, wanted to talk, apologized and admitted her mistakes and bad things she did and said. What brought about the change in heart? I didn't say or do anything much different this time, maybe I was more mindful about what I said, or didn't say. I was thinking, here we go again this cycle. How can I maintain this calmness in her that she is feeling now?


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## Uptown

LifeIsBeautiful42 said:


> How can I maintain this calmness in her that she is feeling now?


LIB, I doubt that you can. Even if it were possible, the task of managing her emotions is HER responsibility, not yours. To the extent that your continued efforts to calm and sooth her are successful, they are destroying her incentives to grow up, confront her own issues, and learn how to do self soothing -- a skill that most of us start learning at age 3. 

That said, I will concede that there are validation techniques you can use to reduce the conflict between you. If your W has only moderate traits of BPD, those techniques may prove quite helpful. If her traits are strong, however, I doubt you would see any substantial improvement because she won't believe whatever it is you are saying. 

Some of these techniques are discussed in popular BPD books such as _Stop Walking on Eggshells._ You may also want to look at two online resources. One is a psychiatric nurse's blog providing 20 tips to nurses on how they can best deal with obstinate BPDer patients. It is located at Borderline Personality Disorder on the Behavioral Unit - Psychiatric Nursing. 

The other resource is BPDfamily's list of tools for reducing the conflict with a BPDer family member. Those tools are described at Decision Making Guidelines. IME, my exW's BPD traits were so strong that none of these techniques made a real difference. I am hopeful that this is not the case with you and your W.


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## dogman

LifeIsBeautiful42 said:


> Last Sunday there was a blowout, because I needed to enforce a boundary and couldn't take the accusations lying down. The validation and SET stuff went out the window. But I was being mindful not to engage in shouting or raging. Took a short timeout outside. Went back, things calmed down. Monday morning it went off again, colleagues were calling me, left but couldn't work all day. Went back and spoke to her calmly. She was ok then, wanted to talk, apologized and admitted her mistakes and bad things she did and said. What brought about the change in heart? I didn't say or do anything much different this time, maybe I was more mindful about what I said, or didn't say. I was thinking, here we go again this cycle. How can I maintain this calmness in her that she is feeling now?


 Here's the thing....she derails your life for several hours/days or whatever. You miss work or go to work but can't function right. You lose sleep. And every time you're left wondering what you did to bring it on or what you did to make it go away. 

The truth is its either different every time or you have nothing to do with it. 
This is what they mean by walking on eggshells, you are left paranoid about what YOU'RE doing to make her better or worse.

It's all her, you're just along for the ride.

The books uptown suggests are great, but the cycle goes on.


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## soulpotato

Dogman, it sounds like you're feeling very pessimistic lately. I'm sorry if things are going badly.  

Regardless of whether or not one person has BPD, both people are in the marriage/relationship and contribute to it. So this...



dogman said:


> It's all her, you're just along for the ride.


...can't actually be possible. Unless I am misunderstanding your meaning. Though it might be tempting, one cannot lay responsibility for everything on the disordered partner.

That said, she is not entitled to disrupt LIB42's life on a regular basis. But if the relationship is not sustainable and boundaries cannot be successfully drawn, the option is to leave. The BPDer really has to be on-board in doing their part to make things livable. 

The truth is, the way a BPDer's partner behaves CAN affect whether things get better or worse, just like in any interaction between people. But with BPDers, this can certainly be more complicated and problematic, and since we're all individuals, the same solutions will not work for all us, or work to the same degree. And yes, you could drive yourself crazy trying to figure it out, especially since there's a constant flux. But your BPDer will usually have key things that work or make a difference to them. I know that validation works very well with me. 

And patience and respect. There are also times that I just cannot stand the way my partner phrases something because it communicates very bad things to me. I'll explain what the "hidden" meaning of the words and/or phrases is to me, and then request a rephrasing or a deeper explanation of what she means so that we can move on with our conversation and our lives. If she calmly explains, there's no problem and neither one of us thinks twice about it later. But if she gets frustrated with me and her tone becomes angry, I instantly tense up and feel threatened. Then I have to do extra work to not react to her in a negative way.


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## PieceOfSky

dogman said:


> Here's the thing....she derails your life for several hours/days or whatever. You miss work or go to work but can't function right. You lose sleep. And every time *you're left wondering what you did to bring it on or what you did to make it go away.
> 
> The truth is its either different every time or you have nothing to do with it. *
> This is what they mean by walking on eggshells, you are left paranoid about what YOU'RE doing to make her better or worse.
> 
> It's all her, you're just along for the ride.
> 
> The books uptown suggests are great, but the cycle goes on.





soulpotato said:


> Dogman, it sounds like you're feeling very pessimistic lately. I'm sorry if things are going badly.
> 
> Regardless of whether or not one person has BPD, both people are in the marriage/relationship and contribute to it. So this...
> 
> 
> 
> ...can't actually be possible. Unless I am misunderstanding your meaning. * Though it might be tempting, one cannot lay responsibility for everything on the disordered partner.*
> 
> That said, she is not entitled to disrupt LIB42's life on a regular basis. But if the relationship is not sustainable and boundaries cannot be successfully drawn, the option is to leave. The BPDer really has to be on-board in doing their part to make things livable.
> 
> The truth is, the way a BPDer's partner behaves CAN affect whether things get better or worse, just like in any interaction between people. But with BPDers, this can certainly be more complicated and problematic, and since we're all individuals, the same solutions will not work for all us, or work to the same degree. And yes, you could drive yourself crazy trying to figure it out, especially since there's a constant flux. But your BPDer will usually have key things that work or make a difference to them. I know that validation works very well with me.
> 
> And patience and respect. There are also times that I just cannot stand the way my partner phrases something because it communicates very bad things to me. I'll explain what the "hidden" meaning of the words and/or phrases is to me, and then request a rephrasing or a deeper explanation of what she means so that we can move on with our conversation and our lives. If she calmly explains, there's no problem and neither one of us thinks twice about it later. But if she gets frustrated with me and her tone becomes angry, I instantly tense up and feel threatened. Then I have to do extra work to not react to her in a negative way.



I didn't hear dogman holding the other partner responsible for *everything*. I heard him hold the partner responsible for the major disruptions in life/work/sleep caused directly by the other's behavior that was beyond the pale.

One can spend a lifetime trying to figure out the other's triggers and put substantial energy into trying to avoid and diffuse them for the other. But if the other interferes or makes no effort his or herself, then it feels pretty hopeless: one either stays and the cycles continue, or one leaves as you mentioned.

That's my take anyways. Ymmv, and I may change my mind.

Btw, Soulpotato, there is a big -- positive -- difference between how you approach your triggers and propensities and the way my wife approaches hers. You have my admiration, as do others (BPD or not) who want to live their lives with their eyes open and working on what can be fixed inside. Maybe I can find the answer in your threads, but I wonder if you always have been working on yourself, or open to it at least, or if something opened you up to it at some point (like for many of us happens).


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## dogman

PieceOfSky said:


> I didn't hear dogman holding the other partner responsible for *everything*. I heard him hold the partner responsible for the major disruptions in life/work/sleep caused directly by the other's behavior that was beyond the pale.
> 
> One can spend a lifetime trying to figure out the other's triggers and put substantial energy into trying to avoid and diffuse them for the other. But if the other interferes or makes no effort his or herself, then it feels pretty hopeless: one either stays and the cycles continue, or one leaves as you mentioned.
> 
> That's my take anyways. Ymmv, and I may change my mind.
> 
> Btw, Soulpotato, there is a big -- positive -- difference between how you approach your triggers and propensities and the way my wife approaches hers. You have my admiration, as do others (BPD or not) who want to live their lives with their eyes open and working on what can be fixed inside. Maybe I can find the answer in your threads, but I wonder if you always have been working on yourself, or open to it at least, or if something opened you up to it at some point (like for many of us happens).


Thank you! Yes, this is what I mean. I have my fault in certain things, like any marriage. But, I'm tired of trying to "figure this out" it's like trying to find a pattern in a set of random numbers. It will drive you crazy.

Soulpotatoe, things are not actually bad at present but...I am trained to wait for the other shoe to drop. This is part of the pattern and the longer we go without incident the more likely it s to happen soon. But, there I go again trying to find a pattern when there is none. The truth is, it can be today or tomorrow or who knows maybe never again. That is a problem I have as well. I continually hope we are done with that and then my hopes are dashed again. This cycle has gone on for 23 years. In between the crazy times we are well suited, we share the same sense of humor the same goals, we have a heathy intimacy and we share the same morals and ethics...mostly. These positive things keep me hoping as well as my vow to her for better or worse.

I guess I'm not interested in taking responsibility anymore for things I have no control over or things I have not done.

But you are all right when you say there are things we can do to make it better and worse, kind of like putting out a fire in your kitchen that someone else starts randomly. I'm just thinking It would be nice to not have that person starting the freaking fire anymore.


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## john117

You can try to fix some things and play the game of validation boundaries etc or you can respond in kind or more than that.

Today's crisis. A crack on a teakwood table that's 20+ years old and demands multiple calls, texts, and so on. Not an unusual or annoying situation in any family.

The BPD variant will make this the highest priority at the detriment of everything else. Everything else will need to stop so I can go to the woodwork supply store and get the proper fix... Then the blame game of how it happened will commence (you did not adjust the humidity control high enough; you waste all my time with cooking and cleaning that I never had time left to check it... Etc) instead of the reality of: it's wood and wood cracks; the humidifier is running fine; if you lived in a normal house instead of a Walmart sized house you could actually see it earlier... And so on. If you fix it yourself (I am pretty competent as a woodworker) it still won't be to her satisfaction and after dozens of complaints that the repair does not meet her standards I'll load the thing in the SUV and take it to the super expensive furniture repair place where they'll do the same repair and charge us $200... 

It seems to me BPD is about lots of little issues, not about a few big ones.


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## soulpotato

Piece, when dogman said, "It's all her," I interpreted that as laying responsibility for "everything" (all the problems) on the partner. But I'm aware I might misinterpret, so that's why I followed with, "Unless I'm misunderstanding your meaning." (And he has already responded! - meaning wow, that was fast, lol!) I also agreed that the BPD partner should be held responsible for behaviors that make life unlivable or miserable. I tried to say as much in my previous post, but I guess it didn't come through.  I try to review my posts before submitting to ensure that I am saying what I mean and not triggering people, but it's a work-in-progress.

Communication and efforts towards healthy interactions are vital for both partners. Yes, the BPDer is responsible for getting treatment and taking charge of themselves.  No one can do it for either person. If both people aren't putting in the effort, it won't work. I understand that people on this thread (and some others) are dealing with a lot. And I understand there's a lot of frustration and the feeling of fighting a losing battle. I'm just trying to contribute another perspective and offer whatever help I can.

My partner and I discuss our triggers as they come up. I also try to give her a heads up when I'm having a bad day. Last time I did that, she said she couldn't even tell and would never have known if I hadn't said anything.  I was very happy about that.

Thank you, I greatly appreciate that.  It's really nice to hear that. It's a bit of everything you said there. I've always been introspective and inclined to work on myself, but I finally found the critical places to focus on at the turn of the year. That was in no small part due to my partner. She really opened my eyes to a lot of things and I came to better understand myself because of her. Her faith, acceptance, love, compassion, understanding, forgiveness, and the way she treats me like a human being have made a huge difference in my life. At the end of the day, I'm really doing this because I love her. I want to be the best person I can be, and I can't stand hurting her anymore. I want a life with her in it. I'll do whatever I can to accomplish that. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soulpotato

dogman said:


> Thank you! Yes, this is what I mean. I have my fault in certain things, like any marriage. But, I'm tired of trying to "figure this out" it's like trying to find a pattern in a set of random numbers. It will drive you crazy.


For what it's worth, trying to figure it out drives some of us BPDers crazy, too. I've often wished I could get out of my mind. I sometimes still get down about being like this, even though things are a lot better than they were.



dogman said:


> Soulpotatoe, things are not actually bad at present but...I am trained to wait for the other shoe to drop. This is part of the pattern and the longer we go without incident the more likely it s to happen soon. But, there I go again trying to find a pattern when there is none. The truth is, it can be today or tomorrow or who knows maybe never again.


I can see how it would be very stressful. You know you can expect the explosions because she is not changing - you just don't know when. Anticipating and trying to brace yourself has to be nearly as bad as actually dealing with the incidents when they happen.  



dogman said:


> That is a problem I have as well. I continually hope we are done with that and then my hopes are dashed again. This cycle has gone on for 23 years. In between the crazy times we are well suited, we share the same sense of humor the same goals, we have a heathy intimacy and we share the same morals and ethics...mostly. These positive things keep me hoping as well as my vow to her for better or worse.


So you have "normal" wife and BPD wife. I know, I've read and been told by my own partner that that's what makes it so difficult and heartbreaking. Because the person you love and want to spend your life with is in there and you see them regularly, but they're tangled up with the BPD behaviors, like being wrapped in barbed wire. You never know when you'll be facing the BPD. Neither does your BPDer. I've said it before, it's like being possessed. It's horrible for everyone involved.



dogman said:


> I guess I'm not interested in taking responsibility anymore for things I have no control over or things I have not done.


No, you certainly shouldn't take responsibility for things that aren't yours. I hope you didn't think I was suggesting that - that definitely wasn't my intention. 



dogman said:


> But you are all right when you say there are things we can do to make it better and worse, kind of like putting out a fire in your kitchen that someone else starts randomly. I'm just thinking It would be nice to not have that person starting the freaking fire anymore.


LOL, I'm sure. But even with couples in which neither person has a PD, someone sometimes randomly starts a fire in the kitchen! Not as often, perhaps...BUT, you've got yourself a firebug, and that's the setup. Life seems to be all about giving the pits with the cherries, doesn't it? It just comes down to deciding what you can live with and what isn't worth the hardship. Not an easy choice, by any means. I've seen the process close up, though I didn't realize it at the time - my partner struggling with the grief of saying goodbye to me.  (Thank god that future was able to be changed.)

I wish you peace, dogman, and for that decision to be made easier for you, one way or the other.


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## soulpotato

PieceOfSky said:


> ...I wonder if you always have been working on yourself, or open to it at least, or if something opened you up to it at some point (like for many of us happens).


I wanted to add more to my response to this. There was a major event that triggered me really putting everything on the line and throwing in for the complete overhaul, and that was my partner moving out a while back and telling me that things were so bad that she couldn't be around me anymore if I wasn't getting treatment. That was a tough pill to swallow. I was so shocked, and found myself thinking, "...it was really THAT bad? But I don't feel like I'm that bad!" It made me realize how serious she had been about being unhappy, and how deceptive my internal feeling of normality/"not badness" was. 

I started reviewing everything I could remember about what I'd done and said over the years and realized that I really needed to change - and that it was amazing that she hadn't left me sooner! Shortly after that, I got into therapy and started DBT. Around the same time, I started searching for everything I could on relationships, and ended up stumbling across TAM.


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## LifeIsBeautiful42

Guess I was just being hopeful, the push and pull cycle will not end, due to fear of engulfment and abandonment (I've been reading other threads). The concern now is how I have been coping, talked to my employer about the situation and he suggested to get help. If the situation doesn't improve, I may have to leave or be asked to leave my job. It's going to be a bumpy ride, and I'm at fault for letting it get the better of me. Yes stop beating myself up, I'm am responsible for my own thoughts and behavior, and I've been sliding further down. Maybe I was too fixated in trying to fix my SO, that I neglected myself. Need help, but where and how?


dogman said:


> Here's the thing....she derails your life for several hours/days or whatever. You miss work or go to work but can't function right. You lose sleep. And every time you're left wondering what you did to bring it on or what you did to make it go away.
> 
> The truth is its either different every time or you have nothing to do with it.
> This is what they mean by walking on eggshells, you are left paranoid about what YOU'RE doing to make her better or worse.
> 
> It's all her, you're just along for the ride.
> 
> The books uptown suggests are great, but the cycle goes on.


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## soulpotato

LIB42, some of what you read on TAM about BPD is accurate, some is not. There is hope if your SO gets the appropriate treatment, though it won't be easy. You can't fix her, she has to do the work on her own.


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## PieceOfSky

LIB42,

I just remembered I never answered an earlier question about my experience with work performance suffering. I am very sorry about that.

More urgently, the part about where/how to get help, that is something you have to take the first step and make a call (or e-mail).

The individual therapist I have been seeing has helped me immensely in the last 10 months or so. I am fortunate my insurance had paid for most if it.

I have had other counselors/therapists, but she has been much more helpful than they were. Of course, maybe I have been more motivated this time as I was in extreme emotional pain when I started seeing her. But I think my selection process and tools were more effective this time, too. I found her through a search tool at the psychologytoday.com website. Helped me see who took what insurance plans, and a bit about areas of specialty. I then went to websites of the most promising therapists, and found I really liked one's writing and stated approach more than others. I e-mailed her to set up my first appointment, which was less intimidating than calling for me.

I have only briefly mentioned speculations about BPD being involved. My therapist is familiar with BPD but has mentioned nothing about ever treating anyone with it, and I'm sure she is not trained in DBT. But she helped ME (alleged NON-BPD), in some more generally applicable ways. 

Are you in the US? Do you have insurance coverage with mental health benefits? Does your employer have an EAP program?

Btw, my current therapist is a LMFT. I had one PhD that was potentially helpful, and one not. My Psychiatrist just writes me a prescription every six months or so after a very brief chat.

The REALLY REALLy important thing is to reach out for help, and connect with someone who can provide it. You don't have to resign yourself to a particular fate just yet. Things look different and feel different once you get some support and relief for yourself from all the stress you have been carrying.

Decide to work on you -- to help cope, and to stop the influx of assaults on your mind and self-esteem and self-worth. Defer other decisions until you shore up your soul a bit. It will be easier then, and less overwhelming.

But do reach out, while you have the inclination.

Feel free to PM me if I can help you figure out a way to start the process


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## LifeIsBeautiful42

PoS,
I'm not in the US, need to check on the insurance and EAP is available and I will try that. Thanks for your advice and encouragement.


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## CAviaGA

*Reach out to the ex's family to get her help?*

My divorce is now final. Towards the end of our 10 year marriage, our counselor told me that she believed my ex had many bpd characteristics. My ex only went to her twice and then decided she was an enemy.... I continued to go and talk about the relationship. After doing much of my own research online and reading "Stop Walking On Eggshells", there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that my ex is bpd. There is no "official" diagnosis at this point - only the counselor's (30 yrs. experience) opinion and my research plus 10 years experience in the marriage. I drew the line at 10 years, which has significance relative to CA law. It was a bad marriage but I kept trying and trying, all the while not knowing what the real problem was.

She's gone now and is back in GA. I could fill you in on lots of crazy details about things that have happened since she left. Lots of hatred coming my way for "abandoning" her. I haven't responded to anything and I'm not angry with her. She needs help.

My question is, should I reach out to one of her family members to get her help? Should I tell them about bpd and how my experience with her coincides with the disorder? She has a son, who was my stepson for 10 years, and I want him to have a solid family life. He's lived his entire life with his mom but has just decided to move back with his dad due to her behavior. Plus, I think she's a good person at her core and I want her to be okay. I don't hold any animosity towards her. My only animosity is towards the justice system and myself for blindly staying so long.

How could I go about reaching out to her family and what would I say?


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## soulpotato

I wouldn't do that if I were you...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CAviaGA

soulpotato said:


> I wouldn't do that if I were you...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just curious what you feel the potential downsides are? My intentions are in no way meant to place blame or criticize anyone. My stepson needs a healthy mom. Her mother's boyfriend is a very nice and rational guy. I've spoken with him many times before and he was once married to a bipolar woman who eventually took her own life. I think he kind of understands the mental health thing a bit. If her family does want to help her, they need to know WHAT it is they need help with. She doesn't need a doctor to just prescribe Zoloft. Already been down that road.... and many more.


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## soulpotato

Well, your (possible) BPDer could see it as an act of war and come down on you like a ton of bricks...I just see a lot of possible badness that could be experienced as a result of that choice, and if you're no longer part of her life... 

The whole, "Surprise, intervention, and by the way we think you have BPD!" Just...eek, pursue at your own peril is all I'm saying. You can't force her to get help. I mean, a BPDer has to be voluntarily and 100% into therapy for it to do any good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CAviaGA

^^^ Thanks and yes that completely agrees with all of the reading I've done about it. It's also the reason I never said anything directly to her about it. I have not been in any contact with her since she left and I have zero desire to be any part of her life. Maybe there's still a bit of the "caretaker" in me that wants to help her and my stepson. I don't necessarily feel like they should confront her with the bpd thing but maybe they could do some research and find a therapist who understands it.


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## Uptown

CA, I agree with SoulPotato that there is very little chance the BPDer would benefit from the news -- and the likely result will be hostility, together with her deciding that YOU are the one with BPD when she projects the accusation back onto you. 

Yet, when I was in your situation six years ago, I chose to tell one of my five adult step children that she could read about her mother's behavior in a BPD book called _Stop Walking on Eggshells._ I explained that it would read like a biography of her mother's life. My intention, like yours, was to point the way to an explanation in case any of my step children wanted it. As an alternative, you may want to consider anonymously sending a BPD book in the mail to her adult son or one of her other family members.


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## CAviaGA

I was hoping the news wouldn't come "from me" because I know how she'd react. I know her family is frustrated as well and they know there is a problem but they don't know WHAT that problem is.

As hard as divorce is, my life is so much more peaceful now.


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## "joe"

dogman said:


> For my situation, any expression of anger, while it may win the moment, it's held against me forever. She will bring it up long after her behavior that led to it is forgotten. She will try to make me sound like a raving lunatic.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> I realize I introduced physical abuse to this discussion but the same applies with losing your temper. They will turn it into you being wrong for losing it. They rarely turn the mirror back on themselves to see their behavior as the cause. IT'S ALWAYS SOMEONE ELSE'S FAULT.


this was _exactly_ my experience.


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## argyle

Meh. I have no problem with simply mailing her family a guide to BPD. Yes, she'll be extremely hostile. But, the main bonus is that her long-suffering family may start to get a handle on things...and really, BPD behaviors are sufficiently destructive a quiet word doesn't go amiss.

--Argyle


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## dogman

Ok so I have an update...

It's only fair that I tell good stuff since I've been on here upset in the past.

It looks like we got over the hump. We haven't had an event in so long I can't remember. I would have to find one of my posts that says our status to know. I was keeping track but the last time was well before thanksgiving and I'm sure that was minor. A super bad event hasn't happened since maybe August of 2013.
We have talked about stuff that was always a precursor to events but it was normal, rational discussion.

I decided back in November that if it happened again I would be gone. My kids are in their 20s and the holidays are always bad for her ranting rages.....but.....nothing, only good times. I was prepared for the worst. She still has some of the signs of BPD but they aren't directed at me and they've become manageable. 

I'm very happy and have become attracted to my wife again the way I was for many years before this stuff started. We've taken back many parts of our life that I thought we lost.

We went from her flipping out on me every day to every 3 days to every 2 weeks to every month and so on. It took almost 8 years and a crap load of self help books along with this forum. 


If this is how it will be, I'll grow old happy. 

Thank you all for your input and advice. If it turns around and I'm back I know you guys will make me feel better. 

Just wanted to give some good news.


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## Uptown

Dog, thanks for returning to give us a 4-month update. I'm so glad to hear it is good news and that things have substantially improved since last December. I join you in hoping it will stay that way!


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## mikealone

*Re: Reach out to the ex's family to get her help?*



CAviaGA said:


> My divorce is now final. Towards the end of our 10 year marriage, our counselor told me that she believed my ex had many bpd characteristics. My ex only went to her twice and then decided she was an enemy.... I continued to go and talk about the relationship. After doing much of my own research online and reading "Stop Walking On Eggshells", there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that my ex is bpd. There is no "official" diagnosis at this point - only the counselor's (30 yrs. experience) opinion and my research plus 10 years experience in the marriage. I drew the line at 10 years, which has significance relative to CA law. It was a bad marriage but I kept trying and trying, all the while not knowing what the real problem was.
> 
> She's gone now and is back in GA. I could fill you in on lots of crazy details about things that have happened since she left. Lots of hatred coming my way for "abandoning" her. I haven't responded to anything and I'm not angry with her. She needs help.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My question is, should I reach out to one of her family members to get her help? Should I tell them about bpd and how my experience with her coincides with the disorder? She has a son, who was my stepson for 10 years, and I want him to have a solid family life. He's lived his entire life with his mom but has just decided to move back with his dad due to her behavior. Plus, I think she's a good person at her core and I want her to be okay. I don't hold any animosity towards her. My only animosity is towards the justice system and myself for blindly staying so long.
> 
> How could I go about reaching out to her family and what would I say?


My advice to you is to have NC (no contact) do your own personal therapy and get on with your life. You are better off helping strangers with BPD, hopefully someone like you will help your ex.

http://www.shrink4men.com/category/personality-disorders/borderline-personality-disorder/


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