# Mental, personality disorders and infidelity.



## SweetAndSour (Feb 25, 2012)

We are here to deal with infidelity but for a good part of the cases, actually we are dealing with a mental or personality disorder as the leading cause, mainly effecting the betrayer but also the betrayed.

I'd like to start a conversation about how these disorders lead to infidelity and what the possible outcomes would be under the effects of these disorders and how to deal with those.

Borderline, manic-depressive, narcicisstic, obsessive, compulsive,............and more.


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## Gratitude (Feb 12, 2012)

Personality disorders ..... there are so many different ones, it's almost as if everybody could fall under one of the headings for something. Whenever a girlfriend of mine leaves a man, she cops the "oh, you're just crazy. I've always known you had bi-polar etc'. We ALL have issues, unless there are obvious signs and you are actually diagnosed, some symptoms are personality TRAITS. It's not always a disorder. But everything gets labelled these days.

I think a true disorder/mental illness ... it all depends. My mother is most of those you listed above. I am OCD. High anxiety. It affects my life at times but it doesn't affect my morals.

Do you mean is it an excuse for cheating? How would you handle it? I guess it depends on how much of the behaviour is genuinely out of the control of the person.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

One counselor on a tv show said all cheaters were narcicisstic. I would say most are since they are so self absorbed. To the point that spouses and childrenare given no real consideration. Its all about them.


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## SweetAndSour (Feb 25, 2012)

My wife had affairs with eight other guys, during our 22 years together which I am just learning during the last two weeks. I knew only two of them before.

Only threee involved some emotional connection in between my wife and the OM. One was LOVE, according to her, lasted for five months. Other was an ex, there was not much of anything left but just some body memory was involved. Third one had started in a political forum, turned to an online affair, then turned to a one week f*ck fest. She didn't find him physically atractive, no brain chemistry for her at all after meeting him in person, but went ahaed and let him have herself as a concubine for a week.

For the other five, she had sex only once with all five, she got bored during her time with them leading to sex, during the sex, did'nt enjoy the sex, she left after the sex and did't pursued the guys before or after and same for the guys, don't remember the names of some of them..

She said she had sex with those guys, just because she just can not say NO. 

Consider that she is telling the truth for a moment. Her case requires more than, lack of morals, boundaries, giving in easely, disregarding all consequences, because she is a sex junkie, problems with her marriage, etc...None explains those.

I believe that for the most part, just enjoying the sex or exchanging sex for some attention from the guys does not explain her behaivour.

Some of us may be really deep in some disorder issue.


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## [email protected] (Dec 18, 2011)

Why are you still with her?


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## SweetAndSour (Feb 25, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Why are you still with her?


With or without her, I need lots of explanations to make sense of things than move on . If you have anything to say about the subject, I am all ears.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

Are you in IC?


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## SweetAndSour (Feb 25, 2012)

I need to add low IQ and low EQ to the subject. My wife has the best resume you could see if you judge her by just that but stil I believe she has a low IQ regarding some very vital parts of human intelligence.


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## SweetAndSour (Feb 25, 2012)

keko said:


> Are you in IC?


I used to but quit about two months ago. She was too and she also quited after her counseler said that "thats about it".


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

SweetAndSour said:


> I used to but quit about two months ago. She was too and she also quited after her counseler said that "thats about it".


Your story is a hard one to swallow. Do you think two months was enough? Seems like you need much more then that, to first get yourself back, then see your options for marriage.


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## Berilo (Aug 2, 2011)

Sweet and Sour:

As someone who has recently split from a woman who probably has borderline personality disorder (see my thread on this tragic episode), I can tell you that this kind of problem is WAY MORE than the usual casual straying, backsliding, or momentary Las Vegas "snacking" that happens to many couples.

I think the biggest difference is that someone with a personality disorder, like my ex, just doesn't (and seems incapable) of seeing reality for what it is. And I don't mean a temporary denial when enveloped by the "fog", or a difference in opinion.

They also can completely lack any empathy at all about what they are doing to the people around them. And again, I don't mean they aren't considerate and cuddly enough, I mean that they don't seem to have the "software" to consider others unless it helps them get what they want.

I have had break-ups in my romantic life before, but this one was the weirdest and toughest, because there was no "reality" and no recognition of me. She just did her own thing, slept with or dated many other men, lied about it pathologically -- even when confronted with evidence -- and tried to turn every fact around as somehow being "my fault". Even today, she won't admit what has happened -- apparently, I split from her because I like being alone and travel too much on business anyway. When I suggested joint counselling, she said she didn't need it, I did.

When a person has a disorder like this, you can't converse or have a constructive argument. You can't fix them, and you can't fix the marriage.

All this is to say that many marriages go through stresses and break-ups and lapses into infidelity. But usually after the fog clears (and the volume is turned down) people can admit to reality and decide what they want to do, usually with at least a minimum of respect to the other person. With a BDPer, unless he/she somehow recognizes that they have a disorder, real reconciliation can never happen.

Good luck with your situation; I am very sorry to hear you are in it.

Berilo


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## Berilo (Aug 2, 2011)

3leafclover said:


> Someone with BPD feels empty most of the time. They crave deep attachments to fill that emptiness and to alleviate their fear of abandonment. They have weak boundaries with others because they're subconsciously seeking these strong attachments.
> 
> Often, the attachments start with mirroring. The BPDer will mirror the thoughts and emotions of the other person and reflect back at them what the person wants to see. Again, this is often subconsciously and the person with BPD doesn't even realize what they're doing, but they are experts at it, having developed an amazing perception and chameleon-like ability. The mirroring leads to a very quick and very intense bonding with the other person that feels real to that person...and feels real to the BPDer but only because they are feeling a temporary, blissful non-emptiness and security that they don't usually get to feel.
> 
> ...


Very well said, 3L ! 

Unfortunately, your description fits my marriage to a T. We had a wonderful courtship of a year before we decided to get married. But I now look back and see that it was too intense to be real or durable. Indeed, the first three months were the only time that she actually focused on me, what I really want and need. Once we decided to get married, I got "too close", provoking her negative reactions -- she started to push me away with some really strange, irregular conduct. I wish I had seen the signs of the big swing sooner than I did ...


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

michzz,

As you say... "For whatever reason, deep personality problem, self esteem, etc... they will not say no...They may even be wracked with guilt, but they like the attention."

It is apparent that we have had similar experiences with cheating wives. 

In the aftermath, my wife told me that she knew in her heart it was wrong, it was destroying our marriage to keep meeting for sex. She would tell herself never again after doing it one more time. Then, the OM would call and email and she was hooked again, the affair attention was more important than our marriage. That's not conjecture that's the reality of who she was. 

After 6+ years of affairs with multiple OM, I know with certainty she was never going to admit or stop. It took a train wreck for the guilt and shame to become a reality for her. Sad really.


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## SweetAndSour (Feb 25, 2012)

3l, berilo,

Thanks for your inputs, thats what I was looking for. I want to say/add/ask more but today I am really down. I will come back another time.

Just 2 hours ago I had another revelation from my wife of 20 years on the phone, it is hard to breath.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Still more? This is horrible. How many skeletons does she have in the closet?


I wish I could say something ...


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

I just hope it isn't what I'm thinking.


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## SweetAndSour (Feb 25, 2012)

No it is not about anything new about abortion. 

She just said on the phone that she was sexually abused when she was 12. Abuser was not one of her parents but she was a relative of her's. she could'nt say much on the phone.

She was talking about being abused as a child by her parents for years and I was asking if anything sexual happened, she was saying no. Now I am learning this.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

I've been obsessed with understanding the "why's" to certain things involving infidelity... I'm facinated with the brain, the fog, and all of these crazy behaviors... lol.

I saw this thread title and thought... "AHHHH... There is it!!!!!"... 

I figured this was the exact subject that rolled around my head and I had to figure out awhile back... I spent a lot of time thinking about and studying this subject.

Rather than bust into a whitepaper about nuerotransmitters, chemical deficit disorders, and it's effects on behavior I'll just summarize (dramatically  )...

I believe if we dig deep enough, the link between depression/BPD/MDD and various other mental disorders and infidelity will jump off the page. We are talking about a link strong enough to classify it as a cause/effect relationship between the two. 

In short, the very same things that cause the mental disorders (depression/Bi-P) are the exact reason that they are dangerously succeptable to cheating, and affairs. Worse yet, For someone that suffers a genuine mental disorder/chemical imbalance the levels of intensity they experience in an affair could be characterized as a "super fog". It really is interesting to look at. It's not an excuse obviously, but.. physiologically it makes sense.

more info re; depression/cheating


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

I was thinking more in terms of your children not being actually yours.

Her revelation of being a victim of childhood sexual abuse really doesn't come as a surprise and neither is the fact that she hid it from you for years. My ex-wife (who cheated on me) did the same and it wasn't until last year that I learned from someone close to her family that she had been repeatedly raped by a male cousin when she was a young girl (13 or 14 years old).

While my heart goes out to any victim of sexual abuse, I cannot help but feeling angry that the knowledge of this trauma is often hidden by the victimized spouse from the one person he/she should trust above all others, his/her spouse. As Pit correctly pointed out, so much of the infidelity stories here scream of mental disorders and if these were known beforehand, they could have been treated in a timely fashion and just possibly avoiding the destruction of lives and marriages through infidelity rearing its ugly head.


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

They seek attention, comfort and confidence. A right place, time and circumstance - it happens. Lack of morals, disrespect to the spouse, confidence that one will not be caught are the basic contributos to infidelity .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

They seek attention, comfort and confidence. A right place, time and circumstance - it happens. Lack of morals, disrespect to the spouse, confidence that one will not be caught are the basic contributos to infidelity .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SweetAndSour (Feb 25, 2012)

After she came home I learned that sexual abuse took place when she was 9 years old, not 12. Abuser was an adult aunt. She was too uncomfortable to talk about that last night so I did'nt push her to say more about that. Now that explains why she has been so distant to her family, and why it was so hard for her to understand that I was so comfortable and connected with my own family. 

Still one more thing she said that around age 14, a friend of her father's forcefully kissed and grabbed her.... you know. She was able to escape before it turned worst. Later, the man was accused of abusing another young girl. My wife's parents were sorry for the man and stated their opinion in front of my wife as "he must be innocent and the girl must be lying for some reason". At that point my wife lost her last chance to come forward about that abuser and more importantly she lost her last hope about relying on her parents for her protection against the world.


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## SweetAndSour (Feb 25, 2012)

I am thread jacking my own thread. I will come back and clean the last few posts of mine and take the latest about my wife's revelations to my story thread. Now I need to go.

EDIT : I am back. I copied my last posts to my "I am pissed of as never before." thread where they belong.
But I am not going to delete the copies here since I am talking about her being abused as a child. Abuses she endured are strongly related to her mental disorders which is the main subject here.


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## SweetAndSour (Feb 25, 2012)

Berilo said:


> Sweet and Sour:
> 
> As someone who has recently split from a woman who probably has borderline personality disorder (see my thread on this tragic episode), I can tell you that this kind of problem is WAY MORE than the usual casual straying, backsliding, or momentary Las Vegas "snacking" that happens to many couples.
> 
> ...


Berilo, 

I was aware of your story. Since BPD was involved, I payed more attention to it.

BPD is the closest condition that I could label my wife as yet. I was thinking that she was having a mild case of aspergers before BPD by looking her lack of empathy and lack of social skills, not being able read peoples faces, etc.

Compared to your wife, mine never gets openly confrontatinal or violent with me. She f***s my life, lives of my loved ones but then when I confront her she is all so apolagetic and remorsfull. Then after that she goes back to on her own ways.


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## SweetAndSour (Feb 25, 2012)

3leafclover said:


> I don't know enough about some of these disorders to give an opinion, but I definitely think narcissistic personality disorder with its lack of empathy would predispose someone to cheating.


My wife lacks empathy seriously. She is such a phylantrophist when it comes from the upper levels of her brain, but she can brush aside a long term friend or even me when we are in pain if it is not advertised on UNESCO bulletins or announced on NPR that we need attention. 



3leafclover said:


> Borderline personality disorder for sure does. Someone with BPD feels empty most of the time. They crave deep attachments to fill that emptiness and to alleviate their fear of abandonment. They have weak boundaries with others because they're subconsciously seeking these strong attachments.


She is so empty inside, no self worth, no any attempt to keep her worthless self up. Her only solution is to get herself into a dark room with no windows and light or in to a closet and lock herself in for hours while saying "I should'nt be borned" for hours. Such a dark meditation. She really does that. 



3leafclover said:


> Often, the attachments start with mirroring. The BPDer will mirror the thoughts and emotions of the other person and reflect back at them what the person wants to see. Again, this is often subconsciously and the person with BPD doesn't even realize what they're doing, but they are experts at it, having developed an amazing perception and chameleon-like ability. The mirroring leads to a very quick and very intense bonding with the other person that feels real to that person...and feels real to the BPDer but only because they are feeling a temporary, blissful non-emptiness and security that they don't usually get to feel.


This mirroring makes sense. For the early months of our relationship, she was adoring me, going to extreems for making me happy, it was too much. I had to tell her to stop sometimes. but being a sick person she made another guy happy too during that initial days of ours, as I learn now.



3leafclover said:


> Some married BPDers will be satisfied with EAs that don't go to PAs as long as the EA attachment is strong enough to give them the attention/love needed to reach the temporary relief state. However, BPDers have an extremely strong desire to please anybody they're forming an attachment to and sex is a superglue bonding tool, after all, so it can often move to PA.


Yes she has been there 8 times with 8 other guys, appearently.




3leafclover said:


> None of this takes away from the culpability of the cheater. An explanation is not an excuse. It can increase understanding and help with closure, etc. but it doesn't excuse the behavior, which is 100% owned by the cheater.


Yes at the end, despite of her weaknesses, she enjoyed having a wild affair and sex life in expense of my and our childrens lives.


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## SweetAndSour (Feb 25, 2012)

chapparal said:


> One counselor on a tv show said all cheaters were narcicisstic. I would say most are since they are so self absorbed. To the point that spouses and childrenare given no real consideration. Its all about them.


My wife has serious self worth issues still she is so self centered. I am definitely sure that she is carrying narcissistic treats but thats not all. I guess We found another counseler and we will learn more about her.


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## SweetAndSour (Feb 25, 2012)

keko said:


> Your story is a hard one to swallow. Do you think two months was enough? Seems like you need much more then that, to first get yourself back, then see your options for marriage.


We are looking for better counsellers for me and her.


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## SweetAndSour (Feb 25, 2012)

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> I've been obsessed with understanding the "why's" to certain things involving infidelity... I'm facinated with the brain, the fog, and all of these crazy behaviors... lol.
> 
> I saw this thread title and thought... "AHHHH... There is it!!!!!"...
> 
> ...


I completely agree.


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## SweetAndSour (Feb 25, 2012)

Gratitude said:


> Personality disorders ..... there are so many different ones, it's almost as if everybody could fall under one of the headings for something. Whenever a girlfriend of mine leaves a man, she cops the "oh, you're just crazy. I've always known you had bi-polar etc'. We ALL have issues, unless there are obvious signs and you are actually diagnosed, some symptoms are personality TRAITS. It's not always a disorder. But everything gets labelled these days.
> 
> I think a true disorder/mental illness ... it all depends. My mother is most of those you listed above. I am OCD. High anxiety. It affects my life at times but it doesn't affect my morals.
> 
> Do you mean is it an excuse for cheating? How would you handle it? I guess it depends on how much of the behaviour is genuinely out of the control of the person.


Disorders are not the only excuse for cheating. But if you read my story, her behaviour is right in the insanity land.

Still, she has no morals, she is an easy Sl*t, wh*re, but she is also really sick.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

RWB said:


> After 6+ years of affairs with multiple OM, I know with certainty she was never going to admit or stop. It took a train wreck for the guilt and shame to become a reality for her. Sad really.


That’s my experience as well. I had to devastate my wife and shove her in the pit to the point that she was able to see herself and what she’d become clearly. Only then was she willing to reflect and want to change. I look at her with pity.. It is sad.

As for mentally ill... I think most people are in some fashion or another. There are traits in all of us that could be assigned to an illness. Yet, I’ve met truly mentally ill people ‘in the wild’ (high functioning) and there is a huge difference. It’s the difference between warm water and boiling water... Just visit those forums and read those stories. 

Just a fair warning that I know you really want to discover ‘the why’ and find something to blame for the affairs. You can’t comprehend because you can’t do that. Just recognize in yourself that this is one way you are trying to cope with what happened. She really is the only one who could ever figure out ‘why’... Explore it when she starts opening up and dig. It will usually start off something shallow... learn to identify excuses versus truth.


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## Heather199 (Apr 17, 2012)

Hello, 
My name is Heather. I am not married but in a serious relationship with my boyfriend. My story aligns with many here...the beginning of our relationship was blissful and refreshing. I had gotten out of a tumultuous relationship months before and my trust and self-worth were significantly damaged. He seemed to be my savior. However, after approximately 5 months, I discovered he had been unfaithful. Not physically, but had been emotionally involved with a younger girl. I left initially, but found that I wanted to give it another chance, as I had fallen for him. After I decided to forgive, things seemed to improve. We celebrated my birthday with him cooking me a wonderful dinner and spending the night together. We had a great Christmas too. Then, I discovered again that he had been texting and speaking to another girl. This would be two months after the first time. We fought, separated but soon rekindled. This happened two more time with the same girl until it finally reached a dangerous and harassing issue. I did try to leave him for good. We separated for longer than before and I tried to surround myself with friends and family and delete him from my life. 
Needless to say, I could not. We stayed up all hours of the night discussing how we would fix us. He agreed to give up his privacy and allow me to look at his phone or whatever I pleased, because he was for real about it. Months later, an anonymous person told me he was pursuing another girl. Which quickly ended.

That is the infidelity issue. I will say, he has never been PHYSICALLY unfaithful, but for some reason I feel emotional infidelity hurts as much if not more. In the beginning of our relationship I saw no rageful fits. He was very kind, spoiled me to dinner and movies and whatever I liked. We would spend multitudes of time together. My mom quickly took him under her wing and now considers him her "second son". We were very loving. 

But after five months, his anger and temper surfaced. I had an idea that he was somewhat angry, as he had been briefly arrested for fighting his father. But it began to get much worse. He would get mad about frivolous things. If I happened to re-activate my Facebook or say hi to a male friend, he would go insane. When I accused him of cheating, he punched a glass window out and a hole in a wall. And although I have personally seen all the evidence that he did get emotionally involved with other girls, he will still deny deny deny. If I kid around with him, he will be laughing one second and then if I say something wrong, he snaps immediately and I find myself having to surrender and calm him down.

I do not mean to be arrogant or conceited, but I believe I am a very loving, affectionate, and supportive girlfriend. He is a foster child, who was born with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. His biological parents are deceased due to drug overdoses. His adoptive family abused he and his two sisters during childhood. He has certainly had a rough life and I have always been there to wipe his tears and give him a place to sleep and feel safe. I almost always put him before myself and will do practically anything to make him happy. I do silly little things to make him smile or feel loved to ensure he knows I am there always and DO love him regardless of his parents. When the infidelity and anger began, I was so confused. I did not think I deserved it. But I quickly became used to what would happen and found myself avoiding any situations where an outburst might occur. I completely gave up my male friends because his jealousy envelops him to a point of black out rage. I almost never go out, just to avoid his outbursts. I cater to him, to make sure things go smoothly because I truly am beginning to believe that if I do not, I will lose him...Because of all of this I began to research the effects of Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. I thought maybe Bipolar Disorder? 

Finding this thread was sincerely life changing and eye opening. I feel myself identifying with each of you. I wrote my story here to get some feedback? What are your opinions?


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Heather- the question you should be asking yourself


is it really worth that time and effort and your heart to overcome such betrayals in such an early stage of a relationship despite any underlying mental disorders he might have?


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## Heather199 (Apr 17, 2012)

Almostrecovered,

I wish my mind trumped my heart like it used to because if it did, I would have certainly seen things as you do.

But in a twisted way, I would rather have the bad as long as I have the good because when we are good, it is _amazing._ 
We understand each other in a weird way. We are very, very close and in many ways I cannot picture being without him. I can tell you I think I am as broken as he is. The typical answer, "Leave. Do what makes you happy." But he makes me happy. And when I did try to leave...for real, I did attempt suicide. It drives me insane but I suppose I look for the easy way out and take him back...I am just terrified I will regret leaving him...


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

please please get some help

if you are at the point of suicide because you can't leave someone then you have some serious problems that need addressing

1) Look up "codependency", I think much of what you are experiencing is your need to "save him" (and be saved yourself). There are many situations where you can't save someone by simply loving them and not presenting consequences. 
2) By the way you describe your relationship I would say that you are experiencing many high and lows of endorphins running through your brain that is causing you to not see clearly. 

I highly recommend you seek out a psychologist

I wish you the best of luck


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## Heather199 (Apr 17, 2012)

Thank you very much for your insight, Almostrecovered. I was also reading your other thread about your past and certainly believe you should write a book! You had me on the edge of my seat. I wish you good luck as well.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

heather, start you own thread. You will get more feedback that way.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Well a remarkable thread this and one I can relate to on so many levels. My wife also had childhood stuff going on I know her own mother and uncles were abused and abusers and my wife has always had scrapes within her family when she was a kid she told me about. Her mother was quite violent too and jealous of my wife and in her teen years she beat her a couple of times.

My wife was in an institution just before I met her and had self harming problems anorexia bulimia and for the first few years before we had children I was in constant fear she would try suicide at any given point. 

But my love and support for her from then (15 years marriage) and since then seems to have, in the last 5 years, turned her into this power person who judges her workplace excitement as a benchmark for how her home life should be. It's never exciting enough at home and of course she has in the office environment 'other men' who will shower her with affection, attention as the "misunderstood wife" hence she's now in love with one of them (and this bit does make me sarcastically smile) who's married and *won't leave his wife !*


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## Shocker (Jul 26, 2012)

Headspin said:


> Well a remarkable thread this and one I can relate to on so many levels. My wife also had childhood stuff going on I know her own mother and uncles were abused and abusers and my wife has always had scrapes within her family when she was a kid she told me about. Her mother was quite violent too and jealous of my wife and in her teen years she beat her a couple of times.
> 
> My wife was in an institution just before I met her and had self harming problems anorexia bulimia and for the first few years before we had children I was in constant fear she would try suicide at any given point.
> 
> But my love and support for her from then (15 years marriage) and since then seems to have, in the last 5 years, turned her into this power person who judges her workplace excitement as a benchmark for how her home life should be. It's never exciting enough at home and of course she has in the office environment 'other men' who will shower her with affection, attention as the "misunderstood wife" hence she's now in love with one of them (and this bit does make me sarcastically smile) who's married and *won't leave his wife !*


My wife also was diagnosed with severe anorexia and I am definately in a "fix it all the time" relationship. She talked with another man about 8 mths ago. She definately has self absorbed traits. To me it looks like she is incapable of a real meaningful (responsiblity) type relationship. I've resolved to work on it and keep trying but my resources run VERY low sometimes. I feel great (at work for instance) talk to her and feel terrible. Not good...things I'm seeing include:

No real depth in talking (small talk all the time)
Lack of empathy
Mirroring me
Extreme clingyness (can't do much of anything) she sits 2 ft from me just starring at me much of the time. Kinda maddening.
My family is never discussed and she avoids talking about visiting them etc
We only eat in very specific places when out
Procrastinates horribly
I handle ALL tasks that require effort
No cleaning without being prompted
Appears to use sex to "get close" to me - lacking other interpersonal resources
Keeps all outside forces away that limit me from her access to me
Emotional Infidelity (at best and possibly more)
Always building herself up verbily like (I'm such a big out doors person! when she never really leaves the house ever)
Panics at ANYTHING that puts a spotlight on her deficiences or issues
VERY high anxiety
Problems with normal phone conversations
Tells others "what they want to hear" almost exclusively
Very negative about others and their appearance (look at that pig!) Really mean.
Very concerned about her appearance.
She is incredibly beautiful and like 96 pounds and attachs crazy attention but has extreme low self esteem
Lives her life in "ROUTINES". Does the same routine each day and deviations make her VERY uncomfortable
Avoids social places and situations (including movie theater or any where else)
Cannot stand anything remotely loud. I mean remotely. 


ETC... need I go on?

I've decided to help her because I love her but all this remains.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Well, infidelity research is clear that a significant number of cheaters are narcissists. That means, clinically NPD. NPD is extremely difficult to treat, because a hallmark of such a person is that all problems are external to them, _they_ are perfect just as they are and see no reason to change.

NPDers are very damaged people.

It is frankly a waste of time to "fix" anyone else. Each person's job is to fix themselves. People who are drawn to "fixer upper" people have their own issues that they are seeking to avoid. When they run around putting out the fires caused by their narcissistic life partner, they don't have to examine their own issues too closely. "Fixing" people (which of course is a never-ending, pointless project) also makes people feel self-important, it gives them self-worth. It gives you a purpose in life, although that "purpose" is actually pointless and hollow.

My strong recommendation for someone who finds themselves "fixing" is to enter individual counseling to investigate one's own deficiencies and lack of self-worth that are leading to this self-destructive behavior.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

my wife is almost for sure bpd.

she also was abused at an early age, and also by the father of her first child and her ex of 16 years.

she bgan cheating on me a little over a year ago.
we are now separated and ive pretty much gone the 180.

ive been keeping some tabs on her lately and thought her current affair had pretty much ended (no phone calls to him for about 3 weeks).

then today, just by accident (i wasnt even checking up on her), i saw her text/phone log popped up on my email. yesterday she texted him like 12 times. then right after texting me (for some business matters), she gets on the phone to him for 17 minutes.

it's wierd (or is it?), it always seems after we discuss some issues, she gets on the phone to him. probly to laugh and tell
what a dumb ^%it I am?

also weird. im not even that upset about it. shes sick.
he can have her. I havent filed yet, i need to get some business issues settled before i can pull the plug. it might get ugly, but im going to get on with my life.


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## Martin12 (Apr 27, 2012)

Most of cheating has nothing to do with disorders, but with the way humans are wired.


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## sick. (Jul 18, 2012)

Sociopaths can lie their ass off and feel no remorse, ever. They are also very controlling and manipulative. But very charming at first.


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## Shocker (Jul 26, 2012)

jorgegene said:


> my wife is almost for sure bpd.
> ive been keeping some tabs on her lately and thought her current affair had pretty much ended (no phone calls to him for about 3 weeks).
> 
> then today, just by accident (i wasnt even checking up on her), i saw her text/phone log popped up on my email. yesterday she texted him like 12 times. then right after texting me (for some business matters), she gets on the phone to him for 17 minutes.
> ...


Dude I have felt that way so much man. TOTALLY. I am still with my wife (and kids) but if you can move on just do it. Not worth it I'm afraid. She ain't ever going to make anyone happy...just the facts.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

yes, shocker, she really is sick. i have come to know this.

i am not really all that mad at her becasue like some of the posters here are saying THEY ALMOST CANT HELP IT, and i actually do still love her, but ive been slowly detaching and almost there.

the anger i still have is for the piece of %$rap that intiated contact with her. I still want to get in the car, and go kick the ^%it out of him and then be done.

I however need to keep my cool, get through all the business issues and then file and get on with my life.

good luck to you all. its so heartbreaking, but so consoling that were going through this together.


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## Shocker (Jul 26, 2012)

jorgegene said:


> yes, shocker, she really is sick. i have come to know this.
> 
> i am not really all that mad at her becasue like some of the posters here are saying THEY ALMOST CANT HELP IT, and i actually do still love her, but ive been slowly detaching and almost there.
> 
> ...


Dude I am SO right there. I drove her by the guys house (yes he was out front) and she went purple. 

We dropped our son off at a friends. Of course this piece of worm #$%$ lives 2 blocks from the house.

My wife cries all the time and I know she loves me but is led astray so easily because of ridiculously low self esteem. I'm sticking it out for now but dunno if this can last.

She will be in major trouble without me...I really believe that. I know who this punk is through his ex (cuts my hair and know her from high school) and he beat her silly. My wife would be done for in that environment.


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## brokenbythis (Aug 21, 2011)

3leafclover said:


> I don't know enough about some of these disorders to give an opinion, but I definitely think narcissistic personality disorder with its lack of empathy would predispose someone to cheating.
> 
> Borderline personality disorder for sure does. Someone with BPD feels empty most of the time. They crave deep attachments to fill that emptiness and to alleviate their fear of abandonment. They have weak boundaries with others because they're subconsciously seeking these strong attachments.
> 
> ...


You are describing my husband exactly.


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## brokenbythis (Aug 21, 2011)

Berilo said:


> Very well said, 3L !
> 
> Unfortunately, your description fits my marriage to a T. We had a wonderful courtship of a year before we decided to get married. But I now look back and see that it was too intense to be real or durable. Indeed, the first three months were the only time that she actually focused on me, what I really want and need. Once we decided to get married, I got "too close", provoking her negative reactions -- she started to push me away with some really strange, irregular conduct. I wish I had seen the signs of the big swing sooner than I did ...


Same here. My courtship with my husband was whirlwind, intense and he was totally focused on me. Once we got married, about a year or 2 in, he started pushing me away and "connecting" with other people, women mainly. He accused me of being a crappy listener, picked out my bad points, etc. 

We have both been in IC and MC and the therapist suspects he is BPD but he has not even begun to accept the reality of anything he's done.

I don't hold any hope for our marriage.


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## brokenbythis (Aug 21, 2011)

jorgegene said:


> it's wierd (or is it?), it always seems after we discuss some issues, she gets on the phone to him. probly to laugh and tell
> what a dumb ^%it I am?
> 
> This is how I feel. I confront him, he tries to sweet talk his way out of stuff, lies then gets on the phone, or in his car and drives over there to tell her what a complete sucker I am. I guess I must be stupid to still love a person like this.
> ...


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## Bentley'sMom (Jul 10, 2012)

I am only now, through therapy seeing that my STBXH is a narcissist. It is all about what other people can do for them. He has no qualms at all about dropping people from his life and has done it on numerous occassions - friends, family members, etc. Charming and bright on the surface, dead on the inside, except they can fake it to get what they want.
Many narcissists abuse alcohol, and he certainly did which did not help anything. He still blames me for everything, and I mean everything. It's my fault, not his. He is entitled to do his thing, conveniently didn't want to be married anymore, so in his head wasn't and shows very very little empathy, if any.
Interestingly his brother is bipolar and did the same thing - cheated on his first wife and went off with this truly hideous monster he is now married to because he 'just loved her'. No consequences for people like that, except they will cause mayhem throughout their lives. I think it's bad genes, and my STBXH's parents must be very proud BOTH their sons are cheating idiots .


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## brokenbythis (Aug 21, 2011)

Bentley'sMom said:


> I am only now, through therapy seeing that my STBXH is a narcissist. It is all about what other people can do for them. He has no qualms at all about dropping people from his life and has done it on numerous occassions - friends, family members, etc. Charming and bright on the surface, dead on the inside, except they can fake it to get what they want.
> Many narcissists abuse alcohol, and he certainly did which did not help anything. He still blames me for everything, and I mean everything. It's my fault, not his. He is entitled to do his thing, conveniently didn't want to be married anymore, so in his head wasn't and shows very very little empathy, if any.
> Interestingly his brother is bipolar and did the same thing - cheated on his first wife and went off with this truly hideous monster he is now married to because he 'just loved her'. No consequences for people like that, except they will cause mayhem throughout their lives. I think it's bad genes, and my STBXH's parents must be very proud BOTH their sons are cheating idiots .


Genes? I agree. Genetics and environment together. My STBXH's family are a bunch of nutcases. Bi-polar, Schizophrenia, clinical depression AND every single one of them, 3 generations back are divorced and multiple remarries. To boot, my STBXH and his only sibling, his brother, have 5 children (not to their wives) to 3 different women scattered all over the US. Some of my STBXH's relatives have even been institutionalized in the nuthouse. Throw in alchoholism and drug abuse.... that's my STBXH's family.

The reak kicker is they all think they are completely normal!!!! They call themselves a functional LOVING family :scratchhead:

This DID raise reg flags when we were dating and I expressed concern to my friends and was assured by all of them, that "you're marrying him, not his family". I loved him and I overlooked the patterns.

If I knew then what I know now after IC, I would have ran the other way and dealt with the broken heart BEFORE I left my career, country, family and had children with this man.


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## Bentley'sMom (Jul 10, 2012)

Broken, I did the same, I left a great job, my country (UK) my family and friends to move to the US for him. Not that he takes any of this into account when he was having an affair for his selfish reasons and is now leaving me to pick up the pieces of my broken life whilst he has his carefree responsibility free new relationship!
I worried about his family, too, particularly his parents, I never liked them. His Dad was very removed and seemed selfish and his mother was an annoying drama queen. Throw in his loser brother and it was a HUGE red flag and one of the reasons I really didn't want children with my STBX. He thought he'd be a good Dad, I knew he wouldn't. He worked all the time, he drank too much, and no way was I kidding myself a child would make him 'grow up'. Getting to the point where I'm glad to be shot of him and his family. They are out of my life and will remain that way. Freaks!


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## Alyosha (Feb 27, 2012)

The lack of empathy was the most alarming thing I saw in my ex wife during the affair. I would ask her to see the situation from my perspective --"what if I did x to you, how would you feel?" -- kind of things and when I looked in her eyes what I saw there was.....nothing. Absolutely nothing. Although she would try, she couldn't even fake it convincingly. Frankly, it was very unsettling to see. She was almost like a robot in those situations.

Another thing she would do that really freaked me out was that whenever she was under a lot of pressure or very agitated she would utterly shut down, slip into a completely different character using a completely different voice and tone of voice. You would look into her eyes and there would be nothing there but coldness. It freaks me out just thinking back on it.

She was also abused as a child and growing up her dad beat her mother and had sexual affairs with both women and men. Terribly messed up. I never knew any of this until 3 years after we had married and had already had 1 child together and another on the way.

What a crazy nightmare. Sometimes I can't believe it all really happened.

Emotionally damaged people are very, very dangerous people. They are capable of devastating the lives of anyone and everyone close to them and going on like nothing of importance occurred. 

I would advise anyone thinking about marriage to get to know everything you can about your partner's family. Everything. And take red flags seriously. Everyone likes to think that love conquers all but believe me, there are things it just can't. DON'T IGNORE RED FLAGS. DEAL WITH THEM BEFORE YOU EVER MARRY. PLEASE.


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## brokenbythis (Aug 21, 2011)

ALYOSHA: I couldn't agree more. My IC confirms this. Look very, very closely at their family: mental disorders, addictions, criminal record, divorces, - everything.

Because this is what your new spouse will see as NORMAL.

My husband doesn't care who he hurts (me and our child). It's all about him.

At age 44, with no family in this country, a special needs child, I am also left to pick up the pieces of my life and try to make a secure home for my son. It's not easy. I feel under tremendous pressure but I know I can do it. I have to, I have a beautiful, sweet, little boy who relies on me. His father chose to walk away and act like nobody is being hurt.

It makes me sick. I for one, could not live with myself, if it was me doing what he has done. I could not live with the knowledge that I was responsible for ruining lives, especially that of my little boy who needs both us us so much.

ps. Forgot to add he has said once that he knows we are hurt but he has to look after himself. He asked me do I expect him to stay married to me, miserable for the rest of his life, just so our son has his dad around????


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## Bentley'sMom (Jul 10, 2012)

I'm so sorry Broken, and understand what you are going through. You have the added pressure of looking after your lovely son, too.
Of course you couldn't live with yourself, you are a decent, normal person. Your husband is a cowardly fvckwit, just like mine. 
People with disorders do not act like we would expect because they are not like us. It's like trying to understand a serial killer - their brains are just different.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

BY ALYOSHA: "I couldn't agree more. My IC confirms this. Look very, very closely at their family: mental disorders, addictions, criminal record, divorces, - everything."

i cant say i wasnt warned although i didnt know all of it. 

* her dad spent 6-7 years in jail for trying to kill someone.

* her whole family is disfunctional, except her son and
daughter are good people.

* her brother who she idolizes is a no good, lying selfish so and 
so who stole 8 grand from her and she still idolizes him
(and is living with him in his separation), he is also
a gambling addict and alcoholic (thats where he blew the 
8 grand)

* her son in law (daughters husband) wont let her come near
their place

* her other brother is a doper.

enough said. still, i dont despise her. not at all. i have some sympathy and empathy becasue she's been abused her whole life. she honestly even with 3 kids doesn't know what real love is. she doesn't understand the difference between feelings and real love. they are two different things.............but she doesn't get it.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

jorgegene said:


> my wife is almost for sure bpd.... I havent filed yet, i need to get some business issues settled before i can pull the plug. it might get ugly....


If she is a BPDer, JorgeGene, it almost certainly will get ugly real quick. I went through it myself five years ago. I therefore suggest you get all your ducks in a row before announcing the split. And I suggest you read _Splitting: Protecting Yourself when Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist._


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## brokenbythis (Aug 21, 2011)

The straw that broke the camel's back in my BPD husband was we went through a bankruptcy 2.5 yrs ago and a foreclosure last year. He left during the foreclosure. Raged on about how it was all my fault (it wasn't I strongly did not want to buy that overpriced house during the boom) and how embarrassed he was and he was a failure and on and on.

Reading up on BPD shows they see themselves as perfect and any mistakes they will either deny or show extreme self-loathing and self-hate.

He really went off the deep end when we had our financial problems. For me, I felt it was unfortunate but we had no choice. As usual I dealt with it, picked myself up and dusted myself off and continued on with life. I didn;t feel shame but was disappointed we got to that point.

He blames every single problem in his life on ME.


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## Bentley'sMom (Jul 10, 2012)

Found an interesting site about narcissists inclusing how to deal with divorcing them - BLOG.THENARCISSISTINYOURLIFE.COM

The blame and coldness is what I find hard to deal with, it makes you think you are going mad, even when normal people around you reaffirm your opinions. The calculated coldness and cruelty makes you feel worthless, but now I realise he made me feel worthless for a long time. Can't believe I was so duped, and now have been tossed out like the trash while he never looks back. Gosh it's hard


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## Bentley'sMom (Jul 10, 2012)

'Often he portrays himself as a workaholic while he is having affairs on the side. He is a man of many identities---a consummate actor who always gets what he wants. Narcissists can exploit their partner to the breaking point. They don't care if you are weak, exhausted, ill, depressed, anxious or desperate. They will use and abuse to the max. And when they are finished they will discard you'

'Before the separation or divorce is mentioned, the narcissist has already made elaborate plans for the next phase of his/her life. There are no regrets or conscience stricken moments for the narcissist. The former spouse never meant anything to him and now has become an infinitesimal speck in the chambers of memory'

How true does this sound? Wow, I'm slowly waking up to who he really is. I'll post later about all the crap he has said, projecting back on me - it's actually very funny with hindsight!


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## Bentley'sMom (Jul 10, 2012)

More from that blog that makes so much sense:

When you are out of favor with the narcissist you go from:
Indispensable to Disposable
Perfect to Putrid
Beautiful to Repulsive
Bright to Dull
Charming and Magnetic to Thankless Witch (B----)
The narcissist becomes restless again for narcissistic supplies. He has found another partner---your replacement



Narcissists cause multiple psychological train wrecks in the lives of others, particularly family members---spouses, ex-spouses, children, in-laws.Always on the hunt for narcissistic supplies which includes a feverish search for people they can exploit, the narcissist can deleteriously affect a wide swath of people including close family members, business and social circles. Exploitative, duplicitous, at times treacherous, highly manipulative, dangerously secretive, the narcissist never stops his hunt for the ultimate narcissistic supplies: praise, adulation, social status, wealth, business connections, spouses and partners that will enhance his/her image of perfection.

I have seen families decimated in the aftermath of the narcissist's vicious, repeated dark deeds. Having neither shame nor conscience, a narcissist, particularly a sociopathic narcissist thinks absolutely nothing of leaving an ex-spouse and his children with no financial support or security while he or she moves on with a new fresh partner to marry again and begin a new family. Narcissists don't stop. Just when you think that they have mellowed, changed or slowed down, they will surprise you with finding another way to obstruct your life. If you share custody with a narcissistic ex you understand how exhausting, anxiety provoking and exasperating, these individuals can be. They want everything for themselves. If they have to deplete psychologically, emotionally, mentally and physically in the the meantime, that is your problem. You are taking life too seriously. Narcissists will never take responsibility ever for the damage that they do. Never wait for an apology or reparations from them. They view themselves as perfect--You have the problem.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

SweetAndSour said:


> I need to add low IQ and low EQ to the subject. My wife has the best resume you could see if you judge her by just that but stil I believe she has a low IQ regarding some very vital parts of human intelligence.


My wife had an affair which was, I feel, mainly if not entirely a result of her being a high functioning Asperger's.


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## SweetAndSour (Feb 25, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> My wife had an affair which was, I feel, mainly if not entirely a result of her being a high functioning Asperger's.


At first, after some googling, I thought my wife had a mild case of asperger's or she was a high functioning asperger's.

It is the lack of emphaty which is most appearent. 

Then after much reading, some theraphy, trying with her to put things in perspective and make it better to no avail, now, I think my wife is a BPD+Narcissist. 

Aspergers->BPD->Narcissist..........

I hope you (and your wife) don't follow the (amateur shrink diagnoses) rule, above. Aspergers is much better then the following two. Narcissist is the worst.

Now my wife accepts that she is pretty much a narcissist. She found her peace with that. She basically tells me to "suck it or get out, I am a narcissist and I have no capability to treat you better"

I wish she was an asperger's.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

SweetAndSour said:


> I think my wife is a BPD+Narcissist.... Now my wife accepts that she is pretty much a narcissist.


S&S, as I understand it, there are three major differences between BPD and NPD. First, whereas NPDers are emotionally stable, BPDers are not. This instability is why BPDers flip back and forth between loving and hating you and do much more of the push-you-away and pull-you-back behavior. That flip usually occurs in ten seconds based on some innocuous thing you said or did. Once a person has been subjected to this cycle a dozen times -- being alternately adored and hated -- he starts feeling like an addict who is alternating between heroine highs one day and heroine withdrawal pains the next.

This is why a BPDer relationship is considered so addictive and toxic. And this is why one distinguishing hallmark of a BPDer relationship is strong feeling of the nonBPD partner that he may be losing his mind. It therefore is very common for the partners to go running to a therapist to find out if they are going crazy. Although the partners of narcissists also are treated abusively, it is less common for them to feel they are going crazy.

Second, although NPDers also do the push-pull (but to a lesser extent), they do not do it because of altering between the abandonment fear and engulfment fear like BPDers. Rather, the NPDers typically do it because, once you return to them, they lose interest in you and start taking you for granted -- i.e., they do not feel engulfed like the BPDers. Like the BPDers, NPDers can rage in response to your comments. Yet, the rage usually is in response to your disagreeing with them, thus refusing to validate their false image of being a person who is perfect and always right. In contrast, the BPDers typically get furious when you say anything triggering their two great fears: abandonment and engulfment.

Third, whereas BPDers typically are caring individuals who actually can love you (albeit in an impaired and immature manner), NPDers are not truly caring and do not love you. Instead, they consider you a useful object when you are supporting their false self image and a non-useful object when you are not supportive. 

Significantly, your posts describe a W who is capable of being truly caring and loving. Your 2/29/12 post, for example, describes her as a wonderful mother and describes the two of you as being "...loving, caring and affectionate towards each other." You therefore do not appear to be describing a narcissist. This is not to say, however, that she cannot have mild to moderate traits of narcissism in addition to strong BPD traits. Most people who suffer from BPD (or any other PD) also suffer from one or two other disorders.


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## SweetAndSour (Feb 25, 2012)

Uptown said:


> S&S, as I understand it, there are three major differences between BPD and NPD. First, whereas NPDers are emotionally stable, BPDers are not. This instability is why BPDers flip back and forth between loving and hating you and do much more of the push-you-away and pull-you-back behavior. That flip usually occurs in ten seconds based on some innocuous thing you said or did. Once a person has been subjected to this cycle a dozen times -- being alternately adored and hated -- he starts feeling like an addict who is alternating between heroine highs one day and heroine withdrawal pains the next.
> 
> This is why a BPDer relationship is considered so addictive and toxic. And this is why one distinguishing hallmark of a BPDer relationship is strong feeling of the nonBPD partner that he may be losing his mind. It therefore is very common for the partners to go running to a therapist to find out if they are going crazy. Although the partners of narcissists also are treated abusively, it is less common for them to feel they are going crazy.
> 
> ...


My wife is not a cookie cutter version of a BPD nor NPD but she carries a blend of basic destructive traits of both.

While her BPD side is messing our relationship, her NPD enabled her to seek and carry her affairs without any concern and not feeling the responsibility to make it up to me when she is found out.

She is not the type of narcissist which manifest itself with sense of unrealistic grandiosity. She is the type with extreem self centeredness and lack of empathy.

I started wondering if she ever really loved me or it was just a mimmicked personna that she unknowingly found appropriate to play to cover her damaged self image.


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## SweetAndSour (Feb 25, 2012)

Bentley'sMom said:


> More from that blog that makes so much sense:
> 
> When you are out of favor with the narcissist you go from:
> Indispensable to Disposable
> ...


I am living all of the above, except that she hasn't found my replecament yet (I think).

I am not her narcissistic supplier any more. Knowing her so well, I became a big threat for her false self image. She cannot take the reality about herself that I remind, easely, hence I needed to be disposed.


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