# Have men lost their power in marriages ?



## Hahaha

Hi, I am noticing that a lot of married men seem to put up with anything from their wives as they get older, I am seeing that whatever the husband does, eg house work, pushes himself at work, goes to the gym , buys her expensive gifts etc, the wife is still moaning because of some petty thing or other.

Maybe because Women are getting stronger in society in general.
It also seems that this attitude is passing down to daughters who follow suit and complain until they get what they want, and creating a culture of women expecting too much from men.

It seems to me that men have very little real power in marriages today, that women can easily rule the roost and gain most out of the deal, 
but men are trapped , faced with of the consequences of divorce, losing assets that they worked for, family home, that they continue in unhappy relationships pretending that things are alright.


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## uhtred

I think gender roles are becoming fuzzy and there is more equality between men and women in society. I think that is a good thing.

To the extent that any divorce laws are still gender biased towards women, I think that should be changed. I don't have any idea how common that is. 

Ideally I'd like to see symmetry in divorce laws, and equal *opportunity* in society. Equal opportunity doesn't mean that I think people *should* take those opportunities, just that they are available if wanted.


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## Lostinthought61

You assume that men had power in marriage to begin with...


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## JayDee7

Generally, at least in my relationship, it?s the man who asked the woman for her phone number, the man called her first, the man asked her out on their first date, the man picked her up, the man paid for her, the man asked for a second date, the man went in for the first kiss, the man went for the first time they held hands, the man made the moves that led to first time they had sex, the man is the one who asked her to be his girlfriend, the man is the one who asked her to be his wife. 
The man holds the keys to the relationship, the man in most cases created it. If the woman is not to the mans liking he ought to have the balls to end it, he had the balls after all to begin it.
It seems that many men fall in love and end up losing their minds and let the woman lead them.
I think men today are wussified. Man up guys, when things are getting out of hand say something, get angry, be the head of the household, be the man of the house and lead. If she won?t follow then leave her behind.


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## WilliamM

My sampling says otherwise.

Certainly my own example is so extreme it is embarrassing to some women to be around us because my wife treats me as a Lord and Master.

But still, even amongst the more normal relationship we know the men certainly seem to be more in control. They control the money, what to watch on TV, what movies to go to, what to eat for dinner, etc, etc, etc. We don't know anyone like some of the guys we read about here. 

Two of my wife's male relatives do seem to get little sex from their wives, but they seem to think it is supposed to be that way due to their religions. Very odd if you ask me, but not all religions are the same.


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## sokillme

First of all if your marriage is about power you don't have a very good marriage. Not that my marriage is the greatest ever, but when it comes to the day to day stuff I think we are pretty good. My wife an I are a team. We cover for each other, we pretty much share the work around the house and the income evenly more or less. To me this is modern marriage, which makes sense in the context of where we are in society. 

In your example the men who get abused or pushed around for long periods of time do so because they allow it to happen. I suspect this is not a dynamic that suddenly changed. More likely this type of person has always been afraid of confrontation and unassertive. This is precisely why they are in a marriage that has such a dynamic. The wife picked him for that very reason. All the brow beat men I know are in that situation because they like it, they don't want to make decisions it's easier to let their wives do it. Frankly I don't blame the women I blame the men. Not that I would want to marry those women or that I don't think they aren't awful. All abuse sucks. 

Do assertive men get cheated on or even occasionally disrespected? Yes. Do they allow continued disrespect? Nope. 

By the way one byproduct of what I called modern marriage above is that if you both bring in basically the same amount of income the distribution of income in a separation is more equitable. I think most men and women would be wise to remember this. For instance I would never be cool with a stay at home wife once my kids are in school. I don't have kids so if my wife didn't want to work I would say how are you going to pay for the food you eat? I'm not paying. (now obviously I would not say that but I would not be cool with it and it wouldn't stay that way.) We are a team working together towards a goal. Both of us working, assuming both are healthy. I never thought that was fair. 

However same goes for me, if you are talking about the old 20th century gender roles, my wife works HARD, it's not fair for her to also do all the housework. I have always tried to do my fair share. This weekend she went out to lunch with her mom. I did the laundry and cleaned up a little, she didn't ask, I just did it. It's my house too. She is not my maid. Does that mean my wife rules the roost? Am I whipped? I bet if you saw us together you wouldn't think so. Anyway that's what we do we cover for each other. 

That is the whole thing, we are partners. The family home is OUR home, we both have worked for it, she has as much invested in it as me. Which means she has just as much stake in not screwing up and losing it. Our assets are our assets, her income contributed just as much to them as mind did, so if by some chance we didn't make it I can't say I would feel cheated if she took half. I guess if you are looking for a 50's type of marriage where the wife stays at home, gets the paper and all that then yes you're screwed. 

Speaking of being screwed, when I read these stories of wives going out for ladies night at a bar, or even more astonishing a week long vacation I am blown away. That just wouldn't happen in our relationship. Both of us would not be cool with that. Then there is the issue I see a lot with these guys, they seem to infantilize there wives and women in general. Which really kind of fits into this 50s idea of women. I feel bad for the men because they have no idea. It's a kind of sexist idea of women that leaves them vulnerable. The women who pick them, see this and they take advantage of it. Their wives are basically ****ty flirts and they guy assumes she just doesn't know any better. 

Anyway again I don't know all the answers but I have always thought marriage is basically 75% of it is who you pick, and 25% character.


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## 482

Hahaha said:


> Hi, I am noticing that a lot of married men seem to put up with anything from their wives as they get older, I am seeing that whatever the husband does, eg house work, pushes himself at work, goes to the gym , buys her expensive gifts etc, the wife is still moaning because of some petty thing or other.


They may not have the balls to stand up to their wives so the continue to accept the ****ty behavior. 



Hahaha said:


> Maybe because Women are getting stronger in society in general.
> It also seems that this attitude is passing down to daughters who follow suit and complain until they get what they want, and creating a culture of women expecting too much from men.


Women are clearly stronger now than they were when they did not work. What does this mean? Men have to be stronger to make sure they are not being lead buy a woman. This has nothing to do with men being better than women or being some type of tyrant. This has to do with balance thats necessary in a relationship if its going to work. If the woman is providing the masculine energy in the relationship (leadership, decisiveness, vision, assertiveness, strength) she will provide less of the feminine energy (delicate, caring, nurturing). This leaves the boy to provide more of the feminine energy in the relationship to maintain balance. Or a man can correct this dynamic by being a strong man and providing the masculine energy in the relationship to allow the woman to see that it is ok to just be feminine. In order for a relationship to work there has to be this balance. Relationships will fail with two masculine people or two feminine people. I suspect this is why even in successful gay relationships there is always clearly one more masculine and one more feminine partner. I think a feminine woman can become more masculine out of necessity if she is in a relationship with a boy rather than a man. This forces her to have to take on the roles she is not comfortable taking on (the masculine ones) out of necessity. 

This is just my theory and you can take it or leave it. 



Hahaha said:


> It seems to me that men have very little real power in marriages today, that women can easily rule the roost and gain most out of the deal, but men are trapped , faced with of the consequences of divorce, losing assets that they worked for, family home, that they continue in unhappy relationships pretending that things are alright.


A strong man is never trapped. He is confident and knows he has many options to find his own happiness. He is responsible for his own happiness, he never puts that responsibility in another persons hands. He does not allow the fear of financial loss keep him in a relationship where his needs are not met. He is not scared of the change if it means being happy, a better man, and a better father. Its only when the loss of the relationship is not in the realm of possibility that the boy mans settles for being unhappy. He may put the woman on a pedestal. He may say he is doing it for the kids when they would be better suited seeing a health relationship. He may be scared of the financial loss. He is letting his fear run the show and make him into a submissive boy rather than a strong man. A strong man still gets scared but its what he does with that fear that separates him from the boys. If they are "trapped" is because they allowed themselves to be.


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## marriageontherocks2

Men have no power in marriage and it's why women file for divorce 80% of the time. It's also why men just aren't getting married anymore. They'll still love women, we're genetically wired to want to protect, care for, and love women. But traditional marriage is a bum deal for men and men are definitely starting to realize it. Marriage is significantly down in the past 20 years and men aren't putting a ring on the finger of a woman with baby fever who wouldn't give them the time of day 5 years ago. This is the tinder generation, and I think it has really exposed a lot of things about women that makes the vast majority a bad bet in marriage.


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## SunCMars

Women do not have the power.
Women do not take the power.

Unless you give it up.

To take it back:

You must endure the bruises, the bruised egos.
You must endure the shouts.
You must endure the chest thumps. Those hard fingered, painted nail, chest thumps.

The flying, leaping chest bumps as she slams hers into yours. Demanding you accede.
Accede to her demands.

Here's the thing:
Never marry a mean women who is bigger and stronger than you.

Oh, when both of you get really old and bent over.
Hide her false teeth at night....so she cannot bite you, come morning.


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## Yeswecan

Hahaha said:


> Hi, I am noticing that a lot of married men seem to put up with anything from their wives as they get older, I am seeing that whatever the husband does, eg house work, pushes himself at work, goes to the gym , buys her expensive gifts etc, the wife is still moaning because of some petty thing or other.
> 
> Maybe because Women are getting stronger in society in general.
> It also seems that this attitude is passing down to daughters who follow suit and complain until they get what they want, and creating a culture of women expecting too much from men.
> 
> It seems to me that men have very little real power in marriages today, that women can easily rule the roost and gain most out of the deal,
> but men are trapped , faced with of the consequences of divorce, losing assets that they worked for, family home, that they continue in unhappy relationships pretending that things are alright.


You have not been to my home. 

Concerning consequences of divorce....that crap has gone on for decades.


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## ReformedHubby

I hope this doesn't come across as harsh. But when I read posts like the one by the OP, I kind of feel like it comes from a place of irrational fear. I am no feminist, but it sure seems to me like some men do want to go back to the days of women not working, or only taking certain jobs. I don't understand it. I don't want my wife under my control, I want her to actually want to be with me. A relationship isn't about control. I also don't think there is any correlation between a woman being financially equal and how she treats her husband. Do men get mistreated by their wives? Of course they do, but its up to that man to do something about it.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Marriage should not be a power struggle. 

If the man has all the power, that is not a partnership

If you're worried about who has more power, you're already lost.


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## BetrayedDad

Men for the last 50 years have been CONDITIONED by education system/society/progressivism to become far less "aggressive" and far more "submissive".

Strength, masculinity, leadership, dominance, are now "dirty words" in the 21st century. Men have been BRAINWASHED to be straight up pansies, bottom-line.

The HILARIOUS irony of this is the now "rare" breed of man is still scooping up all the women while the "nice guys" are scratching their heads wondering what's wrong.

In their minds, they are doing EVERYTHING the women have trained them to do since birth but the only date they got on a Friday night is with their right hand.

Men have not only lost power in their marriages. It's FAR more pervasive than that. It's with all women and I've seen it only get far worse in my lifetime as time goes on.


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## Married but Happy

Women have the power - because they can buy their own batteries.


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## marriageontherocks2

BetrayedDad said:


> Men for the last 50 years have been CONDITIONED by education system/society/progressivism to become far less "aggressive" and far more "submissive".
> 
> Strength, masculinity, leadership, dominance, are now "dirty words" in the 21st century. Men have been BRAINWASHED to be straight up pansies, bottom-line.
> 
> The HILARIOUS irony of this is the now "rare" breed of man is still scooping up all the women while the "nice guys" are scratching their heads wondering what's wrong.
> 
> In their minds, they are doing EVERYTHING the women have trained them to do since birth but the only date they got on a Friday night is with their right hand.
> 
> Men have not only lost power in their marriages. It's FAR more pervasive than that. It's with all women and I've seen it only get far worse in my lifetime as time goes on.


Men's testosterone levels have dropped to a ridiculous low in the west too. There was a funny article going around where one of these millennial type sites did a Testosterone test of 4 male employees, all millennials and just picture your basic 115 lb millennial grinning hipster. They all literally had the T levels of an 80 year old man.


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## Yeswecan

Married but Happy said:


> Women have the power - because they can buy their own batteries.


Hahaha...:smthumbup:


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## sokillme

marriageontherocks2 said:


> Men's testosterone levels have dropped to a ridiculous low in the west too. There was a funny article going around where one of these millennial type sites did a Testosterone test of 4 male employees, all millennials and just picture your basic 115 lb millennial grinning hipster. They all literally had the T levels of an 80 year old man.


I wonder how much of this is porn. So think about it 50 years ago it was a lot different, young men didn't have the sexual outlet that they do today. That is not a judgement are right or wrong, I am just saying, porn and women' sexuality is freely available. 50 years ago you were lucky if you saw a naked women. Now there are hundreds of thousands available at the touch of a button. Not the same it's true but you still involves testosterone if you get what I am saying.


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## BetrayedDad

marriageontherocks2 said:


> Men's testosterone levels have dropped to a ridiculous low in the west too. There was a funny article going around where one of these millennial type sites did a Testosterone test of 4 male employees, all millennials and just picture your basic 115 lb millennial grinning hipster. They all literally had the T levels of an 80 year old man.


These men still serve a purpose... Someone has to babysit the kids while wifey goes to Chad's truck to get her weekly vag pounding.

There is a silver lining. If hipster doofus plays his cards right, maybe he'll get his semi annual starfish sex he was promised last quarter.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

I'm reminded of a great sci-fi book I read as a teen.

In "Sex and the High Command," by John Boyd (published, 1970), women discover a pill (dubbed the v-bomb) that gives the best orgasms ever with no worry, no fuss, no need to placate a man, etc. They also develop the ability to reproduce without a man. Men become totally superfluous; worse, really, just an annoyance.

The best the men can counter with is to find a superstud so irresistible, that women might prefer him to the v-bomb. Dubbed "Lothario X," the ultimate male unicorn is found and men rush to find a way to replicate his charms. But it is too little, too late. 

Ultimately, the male military must resort to "nuke the broads!" But the military commander is seduced by his wife into believing she loves him and actually prefers him to the v-bomb and while he hesitates to give the order, the women move in and take total control, ultimately doing away with men forever. 

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/5996054-sex-and-the-high-command

Ignore the crappy reviews. They missed the point of the book as I explain below:

Like so many cold-war novels that tapped into fears of the red threat, this book effectively taps in to the bottom line male fear of not being needed. The female gaining of power is analogous to women working and ultimately gaining economic parity with men. In the past, the man had the money and the woman had the vagina, so partnerships were forged; asymmetrical, but still with some semblance of shared power. Today, as women forge their own economic path, many men fear the loss of financial leverage and lack the confidence that they can be an essential half of a partnership without it. Women still have what men want, _and _they can get what they need on their own. How will men respond? I think it may be fascinating to watch the next couple decades in our social evolution.


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## marriageontherocks2

BetrayedDad said:


> These men still serve a purpose... Someone has to babysit the kids while wifey goes to Chad's truck to get her weekly vag pounding.
> 
> There is a silver lining. If hipster doofus plays his cards right, maybe he'll get his semi annual starfish sex he was promised last quarter.


These are the guys on the relationships subreddit, that are honestly considering letting their wives get pregnant by another man. One cringe worthy story had a guy upset because his wife asked if they could use a sperm donor because he's short. Another one the couple was trying to get pregnant but turns out the husband was sterile. So the wife wanted his good looking friend to get her pregnant, she didn't want to do it in a doctors office and pay the money when it's free if they just banged. Both of these guys while hurt were considering it, I can't imagine it, but this is where men are today apparently.


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## TAM2013

BetrayedDad said:


> Men for the last 50 years have been CONDITIONED by education system/society/progressivism to become far less "aggressive" and far more "submissive".
> 
> Strength, masculinity, leadership, dominance, are now "dirty words" in the 21st century. Men have been BRAINWASHED to be straight up pansies, bottom-line.
> 
> The HILARIOUS irony of this is the now "rare" breed of man is still scooping up all the women while the "nice guys" are scratching their heads wondering what's wrong.
> 
> In their minds, they are doing EVERYTHING the women have trained them to do since birth but the only date they got on a Friday night is with their right hand.
> 
> Men have not only lost power in their marriages. It's FAR more pervasive than that. It's with all women and I've seen it only get far worse in my lifetime as time goes on.





BetrayedDad said:


> These men still serve a purpose... Someone has to babysit *(CHADS)* kids while wifey goes to Chad's truck to get her weekly vag pounding.
> 
> There is a silver lining. If hipster doofus plays his cards right, maybe he'll get his semi annual starfish sex he was promised last quarter.


Funny until it sinks in it's actually true. All men have to ask themselves now is, do you want to be the Chad or the Chump? You can't be both.


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## ConanHub

Married but Happy said:


> Women have the power - because they can buy their own batteries.


OOHHHHH!!! You beat me to it!!!:grin2:


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## ConanHub

sokillme said:


> I wonder how much of this is porn. So think about it 50 years ago it was a lot different, young men didn't have the sexual outlet that they do today. That is not a judgement are right or wrong, I am just saying, porn and women' sexuality is freely available. 50 years ago you were lucky if you saw a naked women. Now there are hundreds of thousands available at the touch of a button. Not the same it's true but you still involves testosterone if you get what I am saying.


I think part of it is the crappy food.


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## Yeswecan

sokillme said:


> I wonder how much of this is porn. So think about it 50 years ago it was a lot different, young men didn't have the sexual outlet that they do today. That is not a judgement are right or wrong, I am just saying, porn and women' sexuality is freely available. 50 years ago you were lucky if you saw a naked women. Now there are hundreds of thousands available at the touch of a button. Not the same it's true but you still involves testosterone if you get what I am saying.


I think you would be surprised with the amount of porn available 50 years ago. For some reason 50 years ago is painted like an episode of Happy Days and Leave It to Beaver. It was not. Sex toys were available. Porn, burlesque and houses of ill-repute. This idea that the freak flag in the bedroom is something new is not new. The freak flag has been flying strong for centuries.


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## Yeswecan

marriageontherocks2 said:


> These are the guys on the relationships subreddit, that are honestly considering letting their wives get pregnant by another man. One cringe worthy story had a guy upset because his wife asked if they could use a sperm donor because he's short. Another one the couple was trying to get pregnant but turns out the husband was sterile. So the wife wanted his good looking friend to get her pregnant, she didn't want to do it in a doctors office and pay the money when it's free if they just banged. Both of these guys while hurt were considering it, I can't imagine it, but this is where men are today apparently.


Both of these "men" have hair buns?


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## thefam

JayDee7 said:


> Generally, at least in my relationship, it?s the man who asked the woman for her phone number, the man called her first, the man asked her out on their first date, the man picked her up, the man paid for her, the man asked for a second date, the man went in for the first kiss, the man went for the first time they held hands, the man made the moves that led to first time they had sex, the man is the one who asked her to be his girlfriend, the man is the one who asked her to be his wife.
> The man holds the keys to the relationship, the man in most cases created it. If the woman is not to the mans liking he ought to have the balls to end it, he had the balls after all to begin it.
> It seems that many men fall in love and end up losing their minds and let the woman lead them.
> I think men today are wussified. Man up guys, when things are getting out of hand say something, get angry, be the head of the household, be the man of the house and lead. If she won?t follow then leave her behind.


Crudely stated, but this is exactly the type of husband and I have and husband I desire. I would not be attracted to a man at all who would let me run roughshod over him. I like a take-charge man. Let me add here that I submit to my husband but I choose to do so. I have a choice and that's what I choose.

However this is not every woman's preference. Some women want a true partnership not a man who will lead the family. I think it's a matter of compatibility.


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## Yeswecan

thefam said:


> Crudely stated, but this is exactly the type of husband and I have and husband I desire. I would not be attracted to a man at all who would let me run roughshod over him. I like a take-charge man. Let me add here that* I submit to my husband but I choose to do so. I have a choice and that's what I choose.*
> 
> However this is not every woman's preference. Some women want a true partnership not a man who will lead the family. I think it's a matter of compatibility.


Yes, submit and not in the bad oddball sense. My W submits and prefers I take charge. It works for my W and our marriage.


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## sokillme

Yeswecan said:


> I think you would be surprised with the amount of porn available 50 years ago. For some reason 50 years ago is painted like an episode of Happy Days and Leave It to Beaver. It was not. Sex toys were available. Porn, burlesque and houses of ill-repute. This idea that the freak flag in the bedroom is something new is not new. The freak flag has been flying strong for centuries.


Yeah but they were not mainstream like today. I mean really there is no comparison. Most people have access to stuff that would get you arrested 60 years ago, right in their pocket on their phone. Kids grow up with this. At least in my day you still had to go to the video store and hope you didn't bump into someone you knew.


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## Yeswecan

sokillme said:


> Yeah but they were not mainstream like today. I mean really there is no comparison. Most people have access to stuff that would get you arrested 60 years ago, right in their pocket on their phone. Kids grow up with this. At least in my day you still had to go to the video store and hope you didn't bump into someone you knew.


I agree, it is much more available today. But it was there and available decades ago. I remember watching 88mm porn. Very true that TV today leaves nothing to the imagination in this area and teens are subjected to it. But for me, women always had the power to call the ball.


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## sokillme

TAM2013 said:


> Funny until it sinks in it's actually true. All men have to ask themselves now is, do you want to be the Chad or the Chump? You can't be both.


Red pill reminds me of a hunting technique that is really good at catching squirrel. Can it help you to get a squirrel yeah, do you really want to eat squirrel no. There are some good points and I don't doubt that they are accurate with some women, I know for a fact it's true but why would you want a women like that in the first place. The ultimate goal seems to be judged on the amount of sex you have. The guy that is looked up to is the male sIut. I don't really see much admirable about that guy. He is just as sIutty as the women he attracts. At least if he is attracting women who are already with someone. Why is he seen as so accomplished anyway, at best he has a women who only gives him half of her time. I get it he gets to have sex with her, so does her husband most of the time, and he was there first. Gross. Anyway am I the ultimate Alpha because I think redpill is bull****?

What you are really talking about is sex. Many women today have bought the lie that they can use their sex and sexuality to get power or control over some men. Yes this is true to a point. A man like that soon tires of the sex and wants to move on to some new sex though. Others even more sadly believe that sexual interest in them gives them value. Truth be told any women can find a man to have sex with. So when they trade that for a good man who was willing to dedicate their life to them they are really bankrupting themselves, and voiding all their value when it comes to relationships, at least in my mind. Will there be guys who stay with them no matter what? Sure. Will their husbands ever value their wives sexuality they way they once did. Nope. That is a lot to give up for something that is easy to find and worth about the 20 minutes it takes to do. 

Besides all that the power imbalance as you see it will be addressed with the sexbots. As it is porn has already taking a huge chunk out of the power dynamic as you describe it. Once they get to the point that they augment sexuality for men meaning the artificial is better then the real thing, and the stigma goes away lots of men's primary motive to pursue women will go away. Then sex with be like any other commodity that you acquire. Not that some men and women don't think like this anyway but it will be out in the open. (hey Bob you got to come over and see the new desire2000 I just got. Wow Dave I heard that cost $100,000. Yeah but it was worth it. Yeah I can tell Dave, hey can I try?) Gross!

I know that is uncomfortable and not PC but it is what is going to happen. Watch the new bladerunner there is a lot about this stuff. Your VI wife or husband is going to be a pretty common thing 100 years from now. You will cheat on her with a sexbot.


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## JayDee7

I don?t think women have gotten stronger. It takes a strong woman to submit to her husband and a strong man to lead. I do not think a woman who runs around not keeping her vows is a strong woman nor do I think a man who does not lead his wife is a strong man.

It is a comparability issue. You might marry a woman who is easily lead, who will be a true wife and partner. You might marry a man who is a strong leader and you will find comfort in his strength. A strong willed woman just needs a stronger willed man, and vice versa. Men fall for a woman who is sexy and fun but who ends up not being a god wife. Women fall for a bad boy type but ends up being a crappy husband. I think a lot of people when the are young are not recognizing marriage qualities in others, some people are not marriage material. Maybe your wife is a shrew in your household, in a stronger mans house she would be a delight. Maybe your man is a bum in your household, in a weaker woman?s house he would be Superman. If you are already married and your wife is a shrew, rise up to the level she needs. If your man is a bum, encourage him to bring him up to the level he needs to be.


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## Rick Blaine

ReformedHubby said:


> I hope this doesn't come across as harsh. But when I read posts like the one by the OP, I kind of feel like it comes from a place of irrational fear. I am no feminist, but it sure seems to me like some men do want to go back to the days of women not working, or only taking certain jobs. I don't understand it. I don't want my wife under my control, I want her to actually want to be with me. A relationship isn't about control. I also don't think there is any correlation between a woman being financially equal and how she treats her husband. Do men get mistreated by their wives? Of course they do, but its up to that man to do something about it.


Of course. Both spouses are free to choose and so are equally empowered. It's the choice that matters and the choice that defines you. But I don't think that's really what the OP is concerned about. I think the subtext of his post is not concern over power or control as much as commitment and fidelity. Those are the two areas where men now have skepticism. Walk away wife syndrome is a symptom of those two things as evidenced by the fact that approximately 75% of divorces are filed by women. That is the reality and the ongoing threads by betrayed husbands that emerge on TAM provide a relevant sampling of qualitative data. Women are willing to shut down and quit while men will often walk through fire to save their marriage. That is the point of his post I think.


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## EleGirl

Rick Blaine said:


> Of course. Both spouses are free to choose and so are equally empowered. It's the choice that matters and the choice that defines you. But I don't think that's really what the OP is concerned about. I think the subtext of his post is not concern over power or control as much as commitment and fidelity. Those are the two areas where men now have skepticism. Walk away wife syndrome is a symptom of those two things as evidenced by the fact that approximately 75% of divorces are filed by women. That is the reality and the ongoing threads by betrayed husbands that emerge on TAM provide a relevant sampling of qualitative data. Women are willing to shut down and quit while men will often walk through fire to save their marriage. That is the point of his post I think.


There is a problem with using who files for divorce as a measure of who is breaking up the marriage. Just because someone files for divorce, it does not mean that they are culprit, or only culprit, in the breakup of the marriage.

Typically it's the person who feels that they need to protection of the divorce process who files first. When a couple splits, the woman is usually left with the children. So it makes sense that the woman would file first so that she gets court ordered child support to help her support the children.

I've been married, 3 times. I filed for divorce 3 times. I did not break up the marriage. My husbands did... they are the ones who cheated, etc. When I divorced my son's father, he was cheating. I filed because I was unemployed at the time and needed spousal support and child support until I could move back to a city that had companies where I could find a job. 

I know a lot of women who filed for divorce, mostly women with young children. In every case it was the husband who was out cheating and carrying on. So the women filed because their husbands were not going to file. They were ok with just walking away, and staying married so that they never had to pay child support and/or help raise their own children.

Statistics do not tell the entire story. 75% is just a number. It does not tell what does on in those marriages, why they ended and why one person chose to file instead of the other.


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## EleGirl

Rick Blaine said:


> Of course. Both spouses are free to choose and so are equally empowered. It's the choice that matters and the choice that defines you. But I don't think that's really what the OP is concerned about. I think the subtext of his post is not concern over power or control as much as commitment and fidelity. Those are the two areas where men now have skepticism. Walk away wife syndrome is a symptom of those two things as evidenced by the fact that approximately 75% of divorces are filed by women. *That is the reality and the ongoing threads by betrayed husbands that emerge on TAM provide a relevant sampling of qualitative data. Women are willing to shut down and quit while men will often walk through fire to save their marriage. That is the point of his post I think*.


TAM is a self selected group of people. More betrayed men post on TAM because there is a strong support group for men here. And men tend to not have a strong support group of friends in their real life.

TAM does not offer very good support to women who are betrayed and/or divorcing. So women who do post here for support very often leave after only a few posts. 

In the general population men and woman cheat a close to the same rate, with men cheating at a slightly higher rate... men cheat about 20% of the time. Women cheat about 17% of the time. So clearly TAM does not represent the general population.


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## EleGirl

Hahaha said:


> Hi, I am noticing that a lot of married men seem to put up with anything from their wives as they get older, I am seeing that whatever the husband does, eg house work, pushes himself at work, goes to the gym , buys her expensive gifts etc, the wife is still moaning because of some petty thing or other.
> 
> Maybe because Women are getting stronger in society in general.
> 
> It also seems that this attitude is passing down to daughters who follow suit and complain until they get what they want, and creating a culture of women expecting too much from men.
> 
> It seems to me that men have very little real power in marriages today, that women can easily rule the roost and gain most out of the deal,
> but men are trapped , faced with of the consequences of divorce, losing assets that they worked for, family home, that they continue in unhappy relationships pretending that things are alright.


If anyone, man or woman, has no, or little power, in their marriage it's their doing.

No one has to put up with being mistreated, pushed around, etc. in a marriage. There are ways to deal with it from standing up to their spouse, letting their spouse know that they will leave if this continue to actually filing for divorce.


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## 269370

BetrayedDad said:


> Men for the last 50 years have been CONDITIONED by education system/society/progressivism to become far less "aggressive" and far more "submissive".
> 
> Strength, masculinity, leadership, dominance, are now "dirty words" in the 21st century. Men have been BRAINWASHED to be straight up pansies, bottom-line.
> 
> The HILARIOUS irony of this is the now "rare" breed of man is still scooping up all the women while the "nice guys" are scratching their heads wondering what's wrong.
> 
> In their minds, they are doing EVERYTHING the women have trained them to do since birth but the only date they got on a Friday night is with their right hand.



Not true. Friday night is the threesome night! Involving left hand as well.



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## sokillme

Rick Blaine said:


> Of course. Both spouses are free to choose and so are equally empowered. It's the choice that matters and the choice that defines you. But I don't think that's really what the OP is concerned about. I think the subtext of his post is not concern over power or control as much as commitment and fidelity. Those are the two areas where men now have skepticism. Walk away wife syndrome is a symptom of those two things as evidenced by the fact that approximately 75% of divorces are filed by women. That is the reality and the ongoing threads by betrayed husbands that emerge on TAM provide a relevant sampling of qualitative data. Women are willing to shut down and quit while men will often walk through fire to save their marriage. That is the point of his post I think.


Yeah but a lot of the time the women who quit were getting a **** deal. The men who walk through fire basically had their wives acting as their mother and they finally got sick of it. NOW they want to walk through fire. How many guys have posted and were like, well yeah dude you shouldn't have been getting drunk and never being around. She told you she was going to leave you. I'm not talking about cheating. Just talking about the wives who were sick of carrying their husbands. 

Then their are the codependent guys who walk through fire for a wife that is not worth the first step. Those guys were going to be abused and cheated on no matter what because any well adjusted women wasn't ever going to be interested in them. Healthy attracts healthy, broken attracts broken. 

Now the ones I feel bad for are the guys who don't know how to emotionally communicate. Unfortunately there are a lot of men who were never taught these skills. To be a good husband you need to have this. You don't have to and shouldn't be Phil Donahue (showing my age) but you need to at least be able to make an emotional connection with your wife. That is on all of us. We need to do a better job of teaching boys to emotionally communicate. That is why we have all these men who are failing and going crazy. You need communication skills if you are going to survive in the communication era.

And of course there are the good guys who married bad. They will be fine though in the long run. As long as they see their ex's for what they are and don't romanticize them. Those kind of men are in demand. Is it sad sure, but if you are going to run through fire, run through fire with a women who will run through fire next to you. They are both out there men and women. In the end those people end up saying, now that I look back I was settling for so little with my ex. A lot of time we as bystanders can see this and are trying to yell at these people. Just let them go you will do better trust us.


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## chillymorn69

An old dear friend once told me.

Two hairs on a womans ***** it stronger than a bull rope pulling a wagon up hill.

Seems to me he was right on. If your thinking with the little head then this is what happens!


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## 269370

EleGirl said:


> If anyone, man or woman, has no, or little power, in their marriage it's their doing.
> 
> 
> 
> No one has to put up with being mistreated, pushed around, etc. in a marriage. There are ways to deal with it from standing up to their spouse, letting their spouse know that they will leave if this continue to actually filing for divorce.



What if, for some men, it would be financially ruinous to file for divorce? How can you ‘stand up’ then?
There are a number of men on the forum where this seems to be the case (and why they don’t file, it seems). 


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## EleGirl

inmyprime said:


> What if, for some men, it would be financially ruinous to file for divorce? How can you ‘stand up’ then?
> There are a number of men on the forum where this seems to be the case (and why they don’t file, it seems).


Today 50% of all women earn as much or more than their husbands. I was the sole bread winner in my marriages. So I was in the same situation that you are suggesting that some of the men here are in. 

I would never stay in a marry where I was being abused to save some money. I can always earn more money. I cannot get back what a terrible spouse takes from me.

The longer the higher earner stays in a bad marriage, the more of a financial obligation they have.

Plus, I've seen a lot of these men you are talking about just belly ache about their awful wife but do nothing at all to change their own behavior to change the dynamics in the relationship. There are also women here in bad long term marriages who do the same things.. they just complain but do not make the changes needed. Some people find comfort with the devil they know.


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## chillymorn69

EleGirl said:


> Today 50% of all women earn as much or more than their husbands. I was the sole bread winner in my marriages. So I was in the same situation that you are suggesting that some of the men here are in.
> 
> I would never stay in a marry where I was being abused to save some money. I can always earn more money. I cannot get back what a terrible spouse takes from me.
> 
> The longer the higher earner stays in a bad marriage, the more of a financial obligation they have.
> 
> Plus, I've seen a lot of these men you are talking about just belly ache about their awful wife but do nothing at all to change their own behavior to change the dynamics in the relationship. There are also women here in bad long term marriages who do the same things.. they just complain but do not make the changes needed. Some people find comfort with the devil they know.



50% of all women earn as much or more than their husbands.

That means nothing.

50 % of all women earn less or are totally dependant on their husbands wage.

Financial concern is a valid concern.

But I agree that your most valuabe asset is time and wasting time with someone you don't want to be with is unwise,unhealthy , and a mistake in e long run.t


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## EleGirl

chillymorn69 said:


> 50% of all women earn as much or more than their husbands.
> 
> That means nothing.
> 
> 50 % of all women earn less or are totally dependant on their husbands wage.
> 
> Financial concern is a valid concern.
> 
> But I agree that your most valuabe asset is time and wasting time with someone you don't want to be with is unwise,unhealthy , and a mistake in e long run.t


It's a man's choice to marry a woman who earns significantly less than he does.

It's his choice if he stays with a woman who is abusing him for more than a few months. He should have left her as soon as she started mistreating him.


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## MEM2020

I’m not convinced we have accurate data on cheating and have yet to hear a convincing approach to prevent the under reporting of infidelity. 




EleGirl said:


> If anyone, man or woman, has no, or little power, in their marriage it's their doing.
> 
> No one has to put up with being mistreated, pushed around, etc. in a marriage. There are ways to deal with it from standing up to their spouse, letting their spouse know that they will leave if this continue to actually filing for divorce.


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## FrazzledSadHusband

I was threatened by my wife that she would take the kids and I "would be lucky to see them every other weekend".

I have seen this happen to friends of mine. Wife was cheating, cried to judge, she got kids. Wasn't until the POS she had been cheating with put one of the kids in the ER for the SECOND time, then the judge gave custody to dad.

There are dads that just walk away, then there are dads that want to be with their kids, they do pay support, and they still do not get equal custody.

Now that my kids are older, the proverbial manure hit the fan.


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## chillymorn69

EleGirl said:


> It's a man's choice to marry a woman who earns significantly less than he does.
> 
> It's his choice if he stays with a woman who is abusing him for more than a few months. He should have left her as soon as she started mistreating him.


I'm not arguing that. Just like its a woman choice to stay with a man who earn less beats her cheats blablabla

I think deciding to leave has more variables to consider. Usually the relationship is fairly good and degrades slowly. To have this attitude that they should have know better that they should just stand up for themselves that who cares about money and seeing their children is garbage.

The court favor women in our judicial system period.
Do women get to keep their children more frequently than fathers?
Do women get the same sentencing for child molestation?


Some men decide see their children to be a part of their everyday lives at a cost that unimaginable.

Is it the right decision? Hind sight is 20/20


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## FrazzledSadHusband

I think if there was a guarantee of 50/50 custody of custody, you would see MORE divorces.


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## MEM2020

Chilly,

Criminal courts favor the accused, and most rapists are men. And most severe domestic violence is done by men. Size matters.





chillymorn69 said:


> I'm not arguing that. Just like its a woman choice to stay with a man who earn less beats her cheats blablabla
> 
> I think deciding to leave has more variables to consider. Usually the relationship is fairly good and degrades slowly. To have this attitude that they should have know better that they should just stand up for themselves that who cares about money and seeing their children is garbage.
> 
> The court favor women in our judicial system period.
> Do women get to keep their children more frequently than fathers?
> Do women get the same sentencing for child molestation?
> 
> 
> Some men decide see their children to be a part of their everyday lives at a cost that unimaginable.
> 
> Is it the right decision? Hind sight is 20/20


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## MEM2020

Yes to the earnings bit - though you’ve seen that change over time yourself Ele. 

And deep into a marriage with kids - a rapid trigger finger on bad behavior is more difficult. 

That said, I do think this whole mindset of men are victims is frankly a bit strange given that 72% of intimate partner homicides are committed by men. 

And I do think most marriages that go off the rails in terms of mistreatment are a result of tolerating mistreatment. 





EleGirl said:


> It's a man's choice to marry a woman who earns significantly less than he does.
> 
> It's his choice if he stays with a woman who is abusing him for more than a few months. He should have left her as soon as she started mistreating him.


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## Herschel

EleGirl said:


> TAM does not offer very good support to women who are betrayed and/or divorcing. So women who do post here for support very often leave after only a few posts.


Please show evidence of this? I have been here for over a year, on and off, and I have thought that men and women are treated equally.


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## Hahaha

Thanks for your reply, To be honest I would welcome a more equal partnership and have been trying to encourage my wife to work for years and years- all she is interested in is socialising ,telling me what she wants next, new kitchen , something on the tv, to go to some restaurant she just heard about, some holiday ,puppy etc etc etc, and I am supposed to provide it !
( very little of which I give in to at the moment as I make most of the income and would like to achieve my dreams eventually too !)

she's also very much into eating and drinking, not looking after herself , sitting watching tv ( and constantly talking to it arguing with it , commenting on it so much that I struggle to watch a programme if she's in the room) and doting on her parents and our 20 year old daughter excessively in my opinion, even though our daughter disrespects her a lot.

I have a strong long term goal to emigrate which seems like is never going to happen as I have put it off for so many years due to her which I hate to admit I do resent, 
I have been trying to change my attitude in this respect but am struggling to not want what I see could be a better life , or even have the opportunity to try it.
Her father wants to move somewhere warmer but is overruled by the mother.

They even watch all the programmes like place in the sun saying how good it would be to live somewhere warmer than the uk. but would never do anything about it.

I used to be more of an ambitious person who takes action for their goals but I am now feeling that I should not waste my time and effort as she is not really interested in what I want, only what she wants, which is to do lunch and coffee with her friends at home, so even if I put a lot of effort in to make a lot of money I will still not reach my goal so why bother ?

Is marriage supposed to be a partnership working towards a common goal ?
Obviously if it's so long term like us the people change, the circumstances change, and the goals change. ?

However this is going against my nature to put so little effort in.
I have been taking this approach for some time and have an easy work life balance compared to most people, but I am still really unhappy as my main goal of living abroad seems impossible with her.


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## Stang197

All men have to do to keep power over their life is to never get married. Problem solved. Their is never a reason to give someone the ability to financially devastate you.


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## EleGirl

Herschel said:


> Please show evidence of this? I have been here for over a year, on and off, and I have thought that men and women are treated equally.


I have pages and pages of PMs from women who have written me to tell me that they are leaving TAM because of this. It's gotten better in the last couple of years.


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## 269370

EleGirl said:


> I have pages and pages of PMs from women who have written me to tell me that they are leaving TAM because of this. It's gotten better in the last couple of years.




Why do you think that is? Are women less sympathetic than men, when it comes to their problems than men?


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## EleGirl

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> I think if there was a guarantee of 50/50 custody of custody, you would see MORE divorces.


In my state 50/50 custody is the norm. It's becoming the norm in more and more states.


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## EleGirl

inmyprime said:


> EleGirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have pages and pages of PMs from women who have written me to tell me that they are leaving TAM because of this. It's gotten better in the last couple of years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you think that is? Are women less sympathetic than men, when it comes to their problems than men?
Click to expand...

I don't understand what you mean by your question. Why would you assume that the issue is that women are less sympathetic than men? Please explain.


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## MrsHolland

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> I think if there was a guarantee of 50/50 custody of custody, you would see MORE divorces.


We have 50/50 co parenting as standard in Aus unless a parent is not fit for it or abandons their responsibility. The divorce rate is going down.


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## 269370

EleGirl said:


> I don't understand what you mean by your question. Why would you assume that the issue is that women are less sympathetic than men? Please explain.



Sorry, my question wasn’t phrased well.

I presume when someone comes here with their problems, the ‘core’ support would come from people who are in a similar position or have been through similar issues. And it implies someone from the same sex in majority of cases. (Depends on the problem of course).
You can see how the threads work: man writes of cheating spouse, many other men jump in and offer ‘tips’ how to deal with it quickly etc (more men will comment than women). Same if a woman posts of her problems. (More women comment). That’s not to say that help can only be available in a gender-exclusive way (both men and women can offer help etc but i am talking about averages.
Am I wrong with this assumption?
If I’m not wrong, then if a woman feels that she is not getting the support she needs from other women and leaves the site it is either because women are not as sympathetic to their problems? Or there are not enough of them? Or something else? (Too many men are posting and they don’t like it?)
I was just trying to understand why there should be this differentiation that you noticed. Have they explained why they leave the site?




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## Red Sonja

inmyprime said:


> Why do you think that is?


What I am going to say only applies to what I have observed online, on this and some other forms:

When a woman posts on a forum for help with certain "hot button" issues like a sexless marriage or infidelity, there is always a subset of male posters who only view the issue through a projection lens of hurt and anger at their own partner.

For example when I first sought advice for my sexless marriage in an online forum (many years ago) I was not believed and, asked was I fat, was I a nag, etc. One man even asked if I was a lousy cook. I have observed the same type of behavior, under similar circumstances, on TAM ... more than once.

In general I have observed many threads on TAM where women (as a group) are spoken of in grossly disrespectful ways. Tough-love type advice is certainly needed in some situations however personal attacks or attacks on an entire group of people are not helpful and are offensive in general.

Personally, I am not easily offended by words however I can easily imagine how some women would be discouraged from seeking advice on TAM.


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## 269370

EleGirl said:


> I don't understand what you mean by your question. Why would you assume that the issue is that women are less sympathetic than men? Please explain.




Another thing: to judge whether more women leave the site than men, it’s probably better to look at how many women/men sign up and leave (not post anymore), rather than judging by PMs in the in your inbox. I would imagine more women are likely to PM a female mod for not being understood/disappointed in something than a male PMing a female mod. I see a number of people posting something then never to post again and it always seems that both women and men are similarly affected: a lot of it depends on the problem they post about. If it’s something where contributors think that the problem itself is unreasonable (or that the OP is not handling it correctly), that’s when they are more likely to leave rather than stick around. A lot of the time people post is to get confirmation bias to what they already have their own answers to. And perhaps men complain less, why they leave, after they leave? 
Sorry for OT, but it has been my observation and I don’t mean to generalise: there are always exceptions. Just wanted to understand better why you thought there is this discrepancy - I have not come to any conclusion myself.


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## EleGirl

inmyprime said:


> Sorry, my question wasn’t phrased well.
> I presume when someone comes here with their problems, the ‘core’ support would come from people who are in a similar position or have been through similar issues. And it implies someone from the same sex in majority of cases. (Depends on the problem of course).
> 
> You can see how the threads work: man writes of cheating spouse, many other men jump in and offer ‘tips’ how to deal with it quickly etc (more men will comment than women). Same if a woman posts of her problems. (More women comment). That’s not to say that help can only be available in a gender-exclusive way (both men and women can offer help etc but i am talking about averages.
> 
> Am I wrong with this assumption?
> 
> If I’m not wrong, then if a woman feels that she is not getting the support she needs from other women and leaves the site it is either because women are not as sympathetic to their problems? Or there are not enough of them? Or something else? (Too many men are posting and they don’t like it?)
> 
> I was just trying to understand why there should be this differentiation that you noticed. Have they explained why they leave the site?


There are far more men posting on TAM than woman. A lot of women who have tried posting on TAM have not felt welcome here. So if we are expecting that more women are going to support women, then there is not much support for women. 

There are two threads right now that are a prime example of the difference in difference in the support that is given to men and women on TAM.

OP #1 is a male – posted 11/07/17 at 7:16PM about his marriage falling apart, his wife admits to an emotional affair. He admits that they both neglected their marriage/relationship, both putting their careers first. He has 21 responses all of them on topic and direct. So in one day he gets 21 responses. Most of them telling him to just divorce his wife and move on. All of the replies are putting the blame for the affair square on his wife’s shoulders. So what if he neglected her for years, she is responsible for her choice to have an EA.. Most of the replies are from men.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/400506-heartbroken-after-16-years.html

OP # 2 is a female – original post is on 11/06/17 at 6:43PM. Her husband is in an at least emotional affair with a younger woman from his work. He denies that it’s an emotional affair and openly engages in it to include discussing his marriage and bad mouthing this wife to the younger woman. In 2 days she gets 24 responses. Almost all of the response are from men, talking between themselves, ignoring her. Most of the men who are addressing her issue are blaming her for her husband’s affair telling her to treat him better and/or get into counseling. One of the men even talks about the OP in 3rd person and says that she deserved to be punched in the face. 

So why is it that the man, OP #1, is given strong advice to leave his wife and divorce her. And the woman, OP #2, is mostly ignored and when addressed told that it’s her fault that her husband is cheating?

Here’s a breakdown of the replies she got. This is a prime example of the difference in how women who come here for help are treated. They are driven off TAM by men who reply to them in this manner. 

=================================

Response #2… Male: have you talked about marriage counseling? Do you do date nights? A good sex life?

Reponses #3 – Male: I’m a married man had have a younger female friend who I hike with. My wife is ok with me having a younger female friend (message is that the OP is a jealous ***** form not liking her husband having an emotional affair with a younger woman)

Response #4 – Male: Is actually a reply to #2 and completely ignores the OP.

Response #5 – Male: Finally someone addressing the OP and telling her that she is right to be concerned about her husband’s EA.

Response #6, #7 : Males: Leting her know that her she is right to be concerned and that her husband is cheating. NO advice at all on how to handle this.

Response #8: Female: Letting her know that her she is right to be concerned and that her husband is cheating. NO advice at all on how to handle this.

Response #9: Female: asking for more detail.

Response #10: Male: “Counseling and loving supportive communication between you two are desperately needed.” This from a male TAM poster that would tell any man who posted the same thing to man up and divorce his wife.

Response #11: Male: Responding to me, not the OP and making the comment that the death a child had ended a lot of marriages. 

Response #12: Male: Responding to another poster, making small talk. Ignores the OP completely.

Response #13. Male: Addresses another poster and ignores the OP. and then says “It's not the girl that's the problem or your husbands relationship with her.” Sound like he’s blaming the OP for her husband’s EA at this point.

Response #14: Male: responds to another poster and ignores the OP.

Response #15: Female: Finally, a post that actually addresses the OP with some real meet in the reply. 

Response #16: Male: Threadjack addressing another poster.

Response #17: Male: tells the OP that she is the problem in the marriage and she needs to be more attentive to her husband who is cheating on her.

Response #19: Male – continues the thread jack of the men talking between themselves and ignoring the OP.

Response #20: Male: says that the OP needs to be punched in the face.

Response #21: Male: continues thread jack of the men talking between themselves and ignoring the OP.

Response #22. Male: continues thread jack of the men talking between themselves and ignoring the OP. He’s complaining that men his age are not active enough so he has to go hiking with a younger woman.

Response #23 Male: continues thread jack of the men talking between themselves and ignoring the OP.

Response #24: Female: continues thread jack and brags about how much she works out and how fit she is and looking for fit men.

Response #25: Female: Oh my, someone actually addressing the OP, acknowledging that what her husband is doing is wrong. But not offering any real help.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...s-friendship-younger-female.html#post18639634


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## EleGirl

Adding to my reply above, I was going to delete the thread jacks on that thread. I am going to give a time-out ban to the fellow who wants to punch the woman in her face because her husband is having an EA. 

But I'm leaving it up right now so you can read the two thread and see the difference. I think that the woman, the OP is long gone. I don't blame her.


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## chillymorn69

MEM2020 said:


> Chilly,
> 
> Criminal courts favor the accused, and most rapists are men. And most severe domestic violence is done by men. Size matters.


I suppose this is very true.

Explain this.
Prof. Sonja Starr 

PROF. STARR'S RESEARCH SHOWS LARGE UNEXPLAINED GENDER DISPARITIES IN FEDERAL CRIMINAL CASES
Nov. 16, 2012

If


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...9CTAQFggiMAE&usg=AOvVaw146HedFFXYnNGgkU5S-zGT



So your saying because there are more male criminals that the sentencing is more sever for them.

Where is feminism when you need it?


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## 269370

EleGirl said:


> Adding to my reply above, I was going to delete the thread jacks on that thread. I am going to give a time-out ban to the fellow who wants to punch the woman in her face because her husband is having an EA.
> 
> But I'm leaving it up right now so you can read the two thread and see the difference. I think that the woman, the OP is long gone. I don't blame her.


I see what you mean. It's tricky and you are right, it's probably to do with the fact that there are not enough women posting - I am sure there would otherwise be responses more on point. It's a chicken and egg problem and a vicious circle. Don't really know how to keep the balance to have equal ratio between male & females.

None of the men giving advice are 'professionals' - they just say whatever comes into their head and often it is blunt and direct. Often it is inconsiderate or not as empathetic as maybe needed. But it cuts both ways: they give advice in the same way to other men who they think are wrong. See this thread for example:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/400018-wife-wont-stop-texting-other-man-5.html

The OP of this thread also left (I presume). I think it's also partly to do that men are 'solution' animals: for them, to be helpful is to provide immediate reasoning and a solution rather than emotional empathy. For women, sometimes listening is all that matters (sorry for generalisations). And I have only noticed one or two male posters where it's always woman's fault (I guess they have been cheated on).
Everyone will come here with their own biases. In a way I am not surprised it's like this. In some ways, I am more surprised that the site hasn't split in two (men/women only).

Regarding the thread you linked to: for threads like this, there is always a short term and long term solution. (Short term solution involves confrontation and immediate demand for the husband to stop inappropriate behaviour - you are right, this has not been acknowledged enough), long term solution requires more soul searching from both: clearly the death of the child put a huge strain on the marriage. They'd really need to keep together and seek MC (with a pre-requisite that husband stops inappropriate behaviour first).

I think that is why it is not so easy to get a psychology degree 

I am a believer that it is rarely entirely only one party 100% at fault, even when cheating is involved (I know there are exceptions and from I have read about you, you are clearly one of them). I don't want to make excuses for men who posted in that thread but I have yet to see a thread where the woman writes that her husband is abusive, an addict and an alcoholic and for the men to write "maybe you should work on yourself". Although who knows...I have seen very strange things.


----------



## EleGirl

chillymorn69 said:


> I suppose this is very true.
> 
> Explain this.
> Prof. Sonja Starr
> 
> PROF. STARR'S RESEARCH SHOWS LARGE UNEXPLAINED GENDER DISPARITIES IN FEDERAL CRIMINAL CASES
> Nov. 16, 2012
> 
> If
> 
> 
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...9CTAQFggiMAE&usg=AOvVaw146HedFFXYnNGgkU5S-zGT
> 
> 
> 
> So your saying because there are more male criminals that the sentencing is more sever for them.
> 
> Where is feminism when you need it?


It's 3:12 am here so I'm not going to read your link. I need some sleep. But I am going to give you my take on this.

If a woman commits a crime, she needs to get the same punishment that a man would get for the exact same crime. A criminal is a criminal and they need to be off the street.

The problem is with our criminal justice system.


----------



## EleGirl

inmyprime said:


> I see what you mean. It's tricky and you are right, it's probably to do with the fact that there are not enough women posting - I am sure there would otherwise be responses more on point. It's a chicken and egg problem and a vicious circle. Don't really know how to keep the balance to have equal ratio between male & females.
> 
> None of the men giving advice are 'professionals' - they just say whatever comes into their head and often it is blunt and direct. Often it is inconsiderate or not as empathetic as maybe needed. But it cuts both ways: they give advice in the same way to other men who they think are wrong. See this thread for example:
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/400018-wife-wont-stop-texting-other-man-5.html
> 
> The OP of this thread also left (I presume). I think it's also partly to do that men are 'solution' animals: for them, to be helpful is to provide immediate reasoning and a solution rather than emotional empathy. For women, sometimes listening is all that matters (sorry for generalisations). And I have only noticed one or two male posters where it's always woman's fault (I guess they have been cheated on).
> 
> Everyone will come here with their own biases. In a way I am not surprised it's like this. In some ways, I am more surprised that the site hasn't split in two (men/women only).
> 
> Regarding the thread you linked to: for threads like this, there is always a short term and long term solution. (Short term solution involves confrontation and immediate demand for the husband to stop inappropriate behaviour - you are right, this has not been acknowledged enough), long term solution requires more soul searching from both: clearly the death of the child put a huge strain on the marriage. They'd really need to keep together and seek MC (with a pre-requisite that husband stops inappropriate behaviour first)..



I believe that in both the cases that I posted the links to, that both of them should be given info on first how to repair their marriage. Marriages recover from infidelity all the time. I've made my post already about the stark difference in what was given..

And maybe the guy whose wife had an EA and has already ended it would have been given some input about seeking MC too. But nope.



inmyprime said:


> I think that is why it is not so easy to get a psychology degree
> 
> I am a believer that it is rarely entirely only one party 100% at fault, even when cheating is involved (I know there are exceptions and from I have read about you, you are clearly one of them). I don't want to make excuses for men who posted in that thread but I have yet to see a thread where the woman writes that her husband is abusive, an addict and an alcoholic and for the men to write "maybe you should work on yourself". Although who knows...I have seen very strange things.


In the first few years that I posted here on TAM, women who posted that their husband was physically violent were often told that they deserved it. I tried a few times to talk about my husband being physically violent. I was told more than once that if he hit me (1st husband) I must have deserved it. And the people posting that were encouraged by other men on TAM. The men who did this no longer post on TAM. 

Back then I also tried to talk about 2nd husband making our marriage sexless. I was laughed at by most of the men who replied to posts. Their comments were that they were glad that a woman was experiencing it because women deserve it since their own wives (or some of the wives of men here) were making their marriages sexless. It took me years before I mentioned the sexless marriage thing on TAM again. The way I was treated, and other women were treated on TAM who tried to get support for a sexless marriage is why I finally created the thread, "The Sex Starved Wife", in the Ladies' Lounge forum. I had seen so many women driven off TAM who came here for help with this kind of situation. I finally started to speak up. And now, women can get support here for a sexless marriage.

For a very long time I stopped talking about my own issues. Instead I spend my time on TAM addressing other people's issues. It was the women on TAM who I made friends who helped me. They are they ones who talked to me, off the open forum. Were it not for those women I would have left TAM. Sadly, most of those women have left TAM because of the way there were treated on TAM.


----------



## MrsHolland

EleGirl said:


> I believe that in both the cases that I posted the links to, that both of them should be given info on first how to repair their marriage. Marriages recover from infidelity all the time. I've made my post already about the stark difference in what was given..
> 
> And maybe the guy whose wife had an EA and has already ended it would have been given some input about seeking MC too. But nope.
> 
> 
> 
> In the first few years that I posted here on TAM, women who posted that their husband was physically violent were often told that they deserved it. I tried a few times to talk about my husband being physically violent. I was told more than once that if he hit me (1st husband) I must have deserved it. And the people posting that were encouraged by other men on TAM. The men who did this no longer post on TAM.
> 
> Back then I also tried to talk about 2nd husband making our marriage sexless. I was laughed at by most of the men who replied to posts. Their comments were that they were glad that a woman was experiencing it because women deserve it since their own wives (or some of the wives of men here) were making their marriages sexless. It took me years before I mentioned the sexless marriage thing on TAM again. The way I was treated, and other women were treated on TAM who tried to get support for a sexless marriage is why I finally created the thread, "The Sex Starved Wife", in the Ladies' Lounge forum. I had seen so many women driven off TAM who came here for help with this kind of situation. I finally started to speak up. And now, women can get support here for a sexless marriage.
> 
> For a very long time I stopped talking about my own issues. Instead I spend my time on TAM addressing other people's issues. It was the women on TAM who I made friends who helped me. They are they ones who talked to me, off the open forum. Were it not for those women I would have left TAM. Sadly, most of those women have left TAM because of the way there were treated on TAM.


Yeah you know my story EG. I had the same appalling treatment here and thankfully quite of the few of the bullies have since left. I'm fairly thick skinned and don't stress over online forums but saw many women bullied off TAM in the past. There are some men that seem to take delight in seeing women suffer in sexless marriages, IMHO it is a mental health or low self esteem issue, mostly though it stems from them being the type of men that have not taken responsibility for their own ****ty lives and what they did to contribute. Sadly some women cannot stand up for themselves under the weight of such nastiness, they are the ones that need support most, I hope they find it elsewhere.

Flip side is that there are some really great guys here who offer support, common sense, rationality and good humor.


----------



## john117

BetrayedDad said:


> These men still serve a purpose... Someone has to babysit the kids while wifey goes to Chad's truck to get her weekly vag pounding.
> 
> There is a silver lining. If hipster doofus plays his cards right, maybe he'll get his semi annual starfish sex he was promised last quarter.


Most of the hipster doofuses at DD1's university get laid at alarming rates. In contrast, the pure alpha male doctors to be at DD2's medical school appear to be saving it for beyond residency.


----------



## dadstartingover

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Like so many cold-war novels that tapped into fears of the red threat, this book effectively taps in to the bottom line male fear of not being needed. The female gaining of power is analogous to women working and ultimately gaining economic parity with men. In the past, the man had the money and the woman had the vagina, so partnerships were forged; asymmetrical, but still with some semblance of shared power. Today, as women forge their own economic path, many men fear the loss of financial leverage and lack the confidence that they can be an essential half of a partnership without it. Women still have what men want, _and _they can get what they need on their own. How will men respond? I think it may be fascinating to watch the next couple decades in our social evolution.


Very well put. We are absolutely seeing a pendulum swing in marriage. There is still the an overwhelming theme when it comes to marriage for many men: "I provide for her and the family, therefore I should get my physical needs met." Does the man have anything else going for him other than his ability to provide a paycheck and help out around the house? Not really. What happens when the wife gets the promotion at work and makes twice as much $ as him? Does he amplify his Lover qualities to compensate for his lower Provider qualities? Nope. He sulks and pouts and feels emasculated and the situation becomes even worse. He put all his eggs in the Provider basket. He's a crappy lover and a crappy husband. 

Society doesn't help. If your wife has a prestigious job title and makes $500k a year you better believe that the first question everyone asks will be "Oh, what does your husband do?" Nobody asks the husband about his wife's job. The implication is "Oh, your husband must have a REALLY fancy job, then if he's YOUR husband!" If he's a blue collar guy, or worse... a stay-at-home dad, people will just smile politely and then talk behind her back about how the relationship is doomed.


----------



## wild jade

marriageontherocks2 said:


> Men's testosterone levels have dropped to a ridiculous low in the west too. There was a funny article going around where one of these millennial type sites did a Testosterone test of 4 male employees, all millennials and just picture your basic 115 lb millennial grinning hipster. They all literally had the T levels of an 80 year old man.


Too many hormones in our food and water supply. Most of our meat is pumped full of them, and high levels of estrogen and estrogen-related chemicals have been found in water. Also estrogen mimicking food like soy are a bigger and bigger part of our diet (cheap, easy to produce, etc.)

It's been documented that girls are reaching puberty earlier because of this. Why wouldn't the boys be affected to?


----------



## Herschel

EleGirl said:


> There are far more men posting on TAM than woman. A lot of women who have tried posting on TAM have not felt welcome here. So if we are expecting that more women are going to support women, then there is not much support for women.
> 
> There are two threads right now that are a prime example of the difference in difference in the support that is given to men and women on TAM.
> 
> OP #1 is a male – posted 11/07/17 at 7:16PM about his marriage falling apart, his wife admits to an emotional affair. He admits that they both neglected their marriage/relationship, both putting their careers first. He has 21 responses all of them on topic and direct. So in one day he gets 21 responses. Most of them telling him to just divorce his wife and move on. All of the replies are putting the blame for the affair square on his wife’s shoulders. So what if he neglected her for years, she is responsible for her choice to have an EA.. Most of the replies are from men.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/400506-heartbroken-after-16-years.html
> 
> OP # 2 is a female – original post is on 11/06/17 at 6:43PM. Her husband is in an at least emotional affair with a younger woman from his work. He denies that it’s an emotional affair and openly engages in it to include discussing his marriage and bad mouthing this wife to the younger woman. In 2 days she gets 24 responses. Almost all of the response are from men, talking between themselves, ignoring her. Most of the men who are addressing her issue are blaming her for her husband’s affair telling her to treat him better and/or get into counseling. One of the men even talks about the OP in 3rd person and says that she deserved to be punched in the face.
> 
> So why is it that the man, OP #1, is given strong advice to leave his wife and divorce her. And the woman, OP #2, is mostly ignored and when addressed told that it’s her fault that her husband is cheating?
> 
> Here’s a breakdown of the replies she got. This is a prime example of the difference in how women who come here for help are treated. They are driven off TAM by men who reply to them in this manner.
> 
> =================================
> 
> Response #2… Male: have you talked about marriage counseling? Do you do date nights? A good sex life?
> 
> Reponses #3 – Male: I’m a married man had have a younger female friend who I hike with. My wife is ok with me having a younger female friend (message is that the OP is a jealous ***** form not liking her husband having an emotional affair with a younger woman)
> 
> Response #4 – Male: Is actually a reply to #2 and completely ignores the OP.
> 
> Response #5 – Male: Finally someone addressing the OP and telling her that she is right to be concerned about her husband’s EA.
> 
> Response #6, #7 : Males: Leting her know that her she is right to be concerned and that her husband is cheating. NO advice at all on how to handle this.
> 
> Response #8: Female: Letting her know that her she is right to be concerned and that her husband is cheating. NO advice at all on how to handle this.
> 
> Response #9: Female: asking for more detail.
> 
> Response #10: Male: “Counseling and loving supportive communication between you two are desperately needed.” This from a male TAM poster that would tell any man who posted the same thing to man up and divorce his wife.
> 
> Response #11: Male: Responding to me, not the OP and making the comment that the death a child had ended a lot of marriages.
> 
> Response #12: Male: Responding to another poster, making small talk. Ignores the OP completely.
> 
> Response #13. Male: Addresses another poster and ignores the OP. and then says “It's not the girl that's the problem or your husbands relationship with her.” Sound like he’s blaming the OP for her husband’s EA at this point.
> 
> Response #14: Male: responds to another poster and ignores the OP.
> 
> Response #15: Female: Finally, a post that actually addresses the OP with some real meet in the reply.
> 
> Response #16: Male: Threadjack addressing another poster.
> 
> Response #17: Male: tells the OP that she is the problem in the marriage and she needs to be more attentive to her husband who is cheating on her.
> 
> Response #19: Male – continues the thread jack of the men talking between themselves and ignoring the OP.
> 
> Response #20: Male: says that the OP needs to be punched in the face.
> 
> Response #21: Male: continues thread jack of the men talking between themselves and ignoring the OP.
> 
> Response #22. Male: continues thread jack of the men talking between themselves and ignoring the OP. He’s complaining that men his age are not active enough so he has to go hiking with a younger woman.
> 
> Response #23 Male: continues thread jack of the men talking between themselves and ignoring the OP.
> 
> Response #24: Female: continues thread jack and brags about how much she works out and how fit she is and looking for fit men.
> 
> Response #25: Female: Oh my, someone actually addressing the OP, acknowledging that what her husband is doing is wrong. But not offering any real help.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...s-friendship-younger-female.html#post18639634


Looks like you are cherry picking a bit here. In addition, the guy who you banned said he’d like to punch her husband in the face (i would presume, proverbially) as he states he isn’t here. Some of he back and forth banter was off topic but some was also drawing correlations. There are posts that could be shown where women are definitely given full on advice. I think this is an unfair assessment


----------



## Rick Blaine

EleGirl said:


> There is a problem with using who files for divorce as a measure of who is breaking up the marriage. Just because someone files for divorce, it does not mean that they are culprit, or only culprit, in the breakup of the marriage.





EleGirl said:


> There is a problem with using who files for divorce as a measure of who is breaking up the marriage. Just because someone files for divorce, it does not mean that they are culprit, or only culprit, in the breakup of the marriage.


The term walk-away wife explains what the statistics have revealed. We've read anecdotal verification here in a daily queue of threads that steadily moves like the sun rising in the East and setting in the west. This phenominan has been discussed and explained by marriage experts in great detail. I'm not sure why this is fuzzy to some. It's not to the experts. 

The phenominan is just that...a trend that encompasses a specific behavior by a specific group. Not all women fit into this category walk away wife. In fact, most don't as evidenced by the fact that half of marriages do not end in divorce. But men are more committed and devout in the long run, a fact that really surprises me. I thought before that the opposite is true. Women will walk away when they get fed up or when they want something new. Men are more likely to try and save the marriage. And for those men who cheat they usually want to cake eat not exit the marriage. Of course, there are plenty of exceptions but in general these are the trends. An uncomfortable truth, but the truth.


----------



## Rick Blaine

...


----------



## samyeagar

EleGirl said:


> There are far more men posting on TAM than woman. A lot of women who have tried posting on TAM have not felt welcome here. So if we are expecting that more women are going to support women, then there is not much support for women.
> 
> There are two threads right now that are a prime example of the difference in difference in the support that is given to men and women on TAM.
> 
> OP #1 is a male – posted 11/07/17 at 7:16PM about his marriage falling apart, his wife admits to an emotional affair. He admits that they both neglected their marriage/relationship, both putting their careers first. He has 21 responses all of them on topic and direct. So in one day he gets 21 responses. Most of them telling him to just divorce his wife and move on. All of the replies are putting the blame for the affair square on his wife’s shoulders. So what if he neglected her for years, she is responsible for her choice to have an EA.. Most of the replies are from men.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/400506-heartbroken-after-16-years.html
> 
> OP # 2 is a female – original post is on 11/06/17 at 6:43PM. Her husband is in an at least emotional affair with a younger woman from his work. He denies that it’s an emotional affair and openly engages in it to include discussing his marriage and bad mouthing this wife to the younger woman. In 2 days she gets 24 responses. Almost all of the response are from men, talking between themselves, ignoring her. Most of the men who are addressing her issue are blaming her for her husband’s affair telling her to treat him better and/or get into counseling. One of the men even talks about the OP in 3rd person and says that she deserved to be punched in the face.
> 
> So why is it that the man, OP #1, is given strong advice to leave his wife and divorce her. And the woman, OP #2, is mostly ignored and when addressed told that it’s her fault that her husband is cheating?
> 
> Here’s a breakdown of the replies she got. This is a prime example of the difference in how women who come here for help are treated. They are driven off TAM by men who reply to them in this manner.
> 
> =================================
> 
> .............
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...s-friendship-younger-female.html#post18639634


In fairness though Ele, there is a small, yet absolutely critical difference in the threads you are comparing, that I think would make an a huge difference in the replies received. The one with the wife having the admitted EA...she gave the I Love you but am not in Love with you speech, and flat out said there was another man she liked better. Both threads are horrible situations that we have seen play out numerous times here on TAM, but apples and oranges.


----------



## SunCMars

Red Sonja said:


> What I am going to say only applies to what I have observed online, on this and some other forms:
> 
> When a woman posts on a forum for help with certain "hot button" issues like a sexless marriage or infidelity, there is always a subset of male posters who only view the issue through a projection lens of hurt and anger at their own partner.
> 
> For example when I first sought advice for my sexless marriage in an online forum (many years ago) I was not believed and, asked was I fat, was I a nag, etc. One man even asked if I was a lousy cook. I have observed the same type of behavior, under similar circumstances, on TAM ... more than once.
> 
> In general I have observed many threads on TAM where women (as a group) are spoken of in grossly disrespectful ways. Tough-love type advice is certainly needed in some situations however personal attacks or attacks on an entire group of people are not helpful and are offensive in general.
> 
> Personally, I am not easily offended by words however I can easily imagine how some women would be discouraged from seeking advice on TAM.


There is a bit of this:

Men on TAM speak from their hearts, their bruised egos.
Their words dredged up from some dark place under the lid.

And they code speak, such that other men can easily feel, can easily empathize with.

Women speaking to men do a little bit of this. But not so much with other women.
It seems a little more impersonal, as advice from a stranger. As advice from one's mother.

Not advice from a brother.
A brother wounded by a dame.
A dame, coined by TAM men, as a dime a dozen.

That is not to say there are no hot head ladies here.
There are, and my singed tail feathers, now all do leer.


----------



## TAM2013

dadstartingover said:


> Very well put. We are absolutely seeing a pendulum swing in marriage. There is still the an overwhelming theme when it comes to marriage for many men: "I provide for her and the family, therefore I should get my physical needs met." Does the man have anything else going for him other than his ability to provide a paycheck and help out around the house? Not really. What happens when the wife gets the promotion at work and makes twice as much $ as him? Does he amplify his Lover qualities to compensate for his lower Provider qualities? Nope. He sulks and pouts and feels emasculated and the situation becomes even worse. He put all his eggs in the Provider basket. He's a crappy lover and a crappy husband.
> 
> Society doesn't help. If your wife has a prestigious job title and makes $500k a year you better believe that the first question everyone asks will be "Oh, what does your husband do?" Nobody asks the husband about his wife's job. The implication is "Oh, your husband must have a REALLY fancy job, then if he's YOUR husband!" If he's a blue collar guy, or worse... a stay-at-home dad, people will just smile politely and then talk behind her back about how the relationship is doomed.


Yes, the social engineering is already in place.



wild jade said:


> Too many hormones in our food and water supply. Most of our meat is pumped full of them, and high levels of estrogen and estrogen-related chemicals have been found in water. Also estrogen mimicking food like soy are a bigger and bigger part of our diet (cheap, easy to produce, etc.)
> 
> It's been documented that girls are reaching puberty earlier because of this. Why wouldn't the boys be affected to?


Oh that's just great. Now we have the biological engineering too. The rise of high T women with huge clits/no tits and low T men with literally no balls. Bang goes breast feeding. Word has it down at the maternity ward, more and more babies are of indeterminate sex and in 500 years we're all androgynous and reproduce by parthenogenesis.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Rick Blaine said:


> The phenominan is just that...a trend that encompasses a specific behavior by a specific group. Not all women fit into this category walk away wife. In fact, most don't as evidenced by the fact that half of marriages do not end in divorce. But men are more committed and devout in the long run, a fact that really surprises me. I thought before that the opposite is true. Women will walk away when they get fed up or when they want something new. Men are more likely to try and save the marriage. And for those men who cheat they usually want to cake eat not exit the marriage. Of course, there are plenty of exceptions but in general these are the trends. An uncomfortable truth, but the truth.


Well put and anyone being honest with themselves can easily see why if they think about HOW men and women are wired differently.


----------



## EleGirl

Herschel said:


> Looks like you are cherry picking a bit here. In addition, the guy who you banned said he’d like to punch her husband in the face (i would presume, proverbially) as he states he isn’t here. Some of he back and forth banter was off topic but some was also drawing correlations. There are posts that could be shown where women are definitely given full on advice. I think this is an unfair assessment


Please find one thread on TAM where a man is told that it's ok for his wife to hang out with another man, go out for drinks with the other man, meet up at the gym regularly to work out with the other man, and it's ok for his wife to bad mouth him (the husband) to the other man. 

Here is the quote of what was said by the poster who got a time-out ban. The poster said he would punch her husband in the face. And then he said that she needs the same... meaning to be punched in the face.



> No one said the husband didn't have fault. If we could get our grubby mitts on him we would *punch him in the face and yell WAKE UP*. But we don't have H here we Have W, and *she needs the same*.


----------



## EleGirl

samyeagar said:


> In fairness though Ele, there is a small, yet absolutely critical difference in the threads you are comparing, that I think would make an a huge difference in the replies received. The one with the wife having the admitted EA...she gave the I Love you but am not in Love with you speech, and flat out said there was another man she liked better. Both threads are horrible situations that we have seen play out numerous times here on TAM, but apples and oranges.


Really? Apples and oranges because one cheater is just not saying "I Love you but am not in Love with you"? So if a cheater does not admit to the affair and does not say the magic phrase it's a better situation?

Amazing.


----------



## EleGirl

Rick Blaine said:


> The term walk-away wife explains what the statistics have revealed. We've read anecdotal verification here in a daily queue of threads that steadily moves like the sun rising in the East and setting in the west. This phenominan has been discussed and explained by marriage experts in great detail. I'm not sure why this is fuzzy to some. It's not to the experts.
> 
> The phenominan is just that...a trend that encompasses a specific behavior by a specific group. Not all women fit into this category walk away wife. In fact, most don't as evidenced by the fact that half of marriages do not end in divorce. But men are more committed and devout in the long run, a fact that really surprises me. I thought before that the opposite is true. Women will walk away when they get fed up or when they want something new. Men are more likely to try and save the marriage. And for those men who cheat they usually want to cake eat not exit the marriage. Of course, there are plenty of exceptions but in general these are the trends. An uncomfortable truth, but the truth.


So you are saying that my husband, who cheated on me like it was a sport are more loyal people than I am because I walked away and filed for divorce. I see........

The definition of WAW is that the woman has been profoundly unhappy for a long time. She spent a lot of years talking to her husband, trying to get him to work on the marriage, trying to get her needs met. He blew her off and ignored it. So then she leaves and suddenly he's shocked.

It's like the guy in the OP. He's married to a woman who is treats him badly and takes him for granted. He's hanging on and hoping that somehow he can get her to pay attention and fix things. But what you are saying is that if he leaves her, then he's like all those not-loyal women who leave their marriages because they are fed up.


----------



## Vinnydee

I do some of that stuff because I love my wife and want her to be happy. Make no mistake, I am 66 and an old fashioned alpha male who lived most of our 45 years of marriage with my wife sharing me with her best friend/lover. I had two women who loved me. My wife was the homemaker because she loves doing that. We have been monogamous for the last 7+ years. My wife is taking more control now but that is because of my memory and medical problems. We have always operated on the basis that the person best qualified to do something is the logical choice regardless of gender.

What we have in today's generation are half of the men raised by divorced mothers who provided a strong female influence. My nephews are doing the housework, cooking, laundry and taking care of the kids while holding down full time jobs that they have to quit when their wives take jobs out of State. We have men who are will put up with anything just to have a roof over their head, clean clothes, meals and regular sex. 

My wife and I lived in a poly triad and after 7 years our girlfriend went online and found a doctor who was willing to share her with us for the rest of their marriage. Even when we went on vacation he turned her over to me and my wife and disappeared until it was time to go home. Why? He got to gamble and drink without his wife nagging him about it. I could not live with my wife having sex with another man as much as she did with me, maybe more. He is older than me but lost his first wife as he is smart but not manly. Never played a sport, got into a fight or was dominating in bed. In fact, he is sexually submissive and wants his wife to take charge. There are all sorts of reasons for what you observed. Before I got married I had several married girlfriends who lost respect for their husbands because they were not take charge guys and even looked the other way when they cheated. Women still are attracted to alpha men and marriage is archaic since it was designed for a time when men were allowed concubines, even the guys who wrote parts of the bible, and when people died by the time they were 30. Not we can live into our 90's and women no longer need men to protect and provide for them. They do not even need them to have kids. Do as my nieces did and go to the sperm bank and choose your child's father. 

Listening to people defend our current form of marriage is like listening to the owner of an airline trying to defend it by saying that their planes only crash half of the time.


----------



## jinkazama

Marriage is not about power.

If you are married to a good faithful and supportive woman than marriage is great.

If not then:surprise:


----------



## GusPolinski

sokillme said:


> I wonder how much of this is porn. So think about it 50 years ago it was a lot different, young men didn't have the sexual outlet that they do today. That is not a judgement are right or wrong, I am just saying, porn and women' sexuality is freely available. 50 years ago you were lucky if you saw a naked women. Now there are hundreds of thousands available at the touch of a button. Not the same it's true but you still involves testosterone if you get what I am saying.





ConanHub said:


> I think part of it is the crappy food.


Diet is probably a secondary concern.

Primary issues are likely a) a lack of *strenuous* physical activity and _then_ b) porn.


----------



## ConanHub

GusPolinski said:


> Diet is probably a secondary concern.
> 
> Primary issues are likely a) a lack of *strenuous* physical activity and _then_ b) porn.


I can agree with a diet/exercise combination.


----------



## 269370

EleGirl said:


> Please find one thread on TAM where a man is told that it's ok for his wife to hang out with another man, go out for drinks with the other man, meet up at the gym regularly to work out with the other man, and it's ok for his wife to bad mouth him (the husband) to the other man.
> 
> Here is the quote of what was said by the poster who got a time-out ban. The poster said he would punch her husband in the face. And then he said that she needs the same... meaning to be punched in the face.


Quote: "No one said the husband didn't have fault. If we could get our grubby mitts on him we would punch him in the face and yell WAKE UP. But we don't have H here we Have W, and she needs the same."

"The same" could be referring to "yelling wake up", not punching in the face...Not that it's much better to punch a guy in the face instead. I don't think the poster meant literally to punch someone in the face...? Could have been unfortunate phrasing. But I have no idea. 
Does banning people actually do anything? Some might get more upset, create another account and post even more angry stuff.
I am not sure I am such a fan of banning. I can see the use of it when someone is spamming etc.:rules:

Can we not all just get along...:flowerkitty:


----------



## 269370

Also for the sake of being even-handed...What about @She'sStillGotIt? Every second post is about punching a guy in the throat  I don't think she means it.
(Please don't ban her: her posts are some of the most hilarious on TAM).
Should there be some kind of a rule about punching people? (literally or figuratively. Though literally is probably not so easy on the forum).


----------



## sokillme

How did this thread devolve into a thread about how bad the posters are here. Talk about thread jack.


@EleGirl feel free to call me on any women's post where the husband is cheating. I will be glad to tell her all the ways he is a monster and completely disposable like garbage.


----------



## EleGirl

inmyprime said:


> Quote: "No one said the husband didn't have fault. If we could get our grubby mitts on him we would punch him in the face and yell WAKE UP. But we don't have H here we Have W, and she needs the same."
> 
> "The same" could be referring to "yelling wake up", not punching in the face...Not that it's much better to punch a guy in the face instead. I don't think the poster meant literally to punch someone in the face...? Could have been unfortunate phrasing. But I have no idea.


Advocating, or expressing violence, on TAM is grounds for a permanent ban. That's the rules.



inmyprime said:


> Does banning people actually do anything? Some might get more upset, create another account and post even more angry stuff.


Creating a second account for just about any reason is grounds for a permanent ban.

Yes, short time-out bans work. They work to help the person step back and think about what they post.

I got a few week ban one time (before I was a mod) because I told someone to stop thread jacking after a mod issued a warning. Mods today are much more lenient than that.



inmyprime said:


> I am not sure I am such a fan of banning. I can see the use of it when someone is spamming etc.:rules:
> 
> Can we not all just get along...:flowerkitty:


Yea, it would be nice if people could get along. Do you really think that posting a threat that is basically an attack on women and then having post after post of men saying things like women, by nature, are not loyal and other derogatory things is anyone trying to get along?


----------



## Rick Blaine

EleGirl said:


> So you are saying that my husband, who cheated on me like it was a sport are more loyal people than I am because I walked away and filed for divorce. I see.......


No, he cheated. He was not loyal. Apples to oranges. (And I am very sorry your husband did that to you.)

Whether a women walks out of the marriage because of an affair or because she's fed up, the men on the other side are often blindsided by a spouse who went nuclear on them. They become remorseful about the factors that contributed to her decision to leave. But rather than working out the issue with the husband the wife leaves. I recognize that in some cases the men ignored the wife's pleas. But so often women shut down and are not willing to do the work required to reignite the flame even though the husband is willing. Their hearts harden and they forsake their vows. 

I think our culture shoulders much of the responsibility. There are two glaring problems that come to mind as I type this on my lunch break. 

The first is that our culture tells us that relationships are disposable. We live in a hook up culture where we place a premium on sexual pleasure over meaningful relationships. If it feels good do it. Move on from one to the next. If it's not working out...get out. But then Mr. Right comes along and suddenly wedding bells are ringing. Once the monotony and routine of married and family life come, there is a misplaced longing to rediscover that which made me feel good in the past and I look outside of the relationship for it. Outside of the person who tethers me to my mundane responsibilities. If my spouse doesn't meet my needs anymore--if I am unhappy--I will just hit the reset button and find MY happiness with someone else. The problem there is that marriage has always been about WE not ME. But in this modern age of "self actualization" that is no longer so.

And that takes us to issue #2. Marriage today has been consumerized and women have been taught to see it as a momentary fairytale more than a lifelong partnership. We see this concretely in how weddings are planned. Weddings become a superficial Cinderella story that create Bridezillas instead of being a steppingstone to an authentic lifelong partnership where husband and wife become one. It's all about the dress not the sacramental union. So when the honeymoon is over, the bride experiences a profound sense of denouement. The story is not just beginning. Quite the opposite: It's moving downhill.

Obviously, this doesn't apply to everyone who marries. Just those with that wayward or walk-away mindset. But sadly it has become more prevalent.


----------



## MrsHolland

EleGirl said:


> *Advocating, or expressing violence, on TAM is grounds for a permanent ban. That's the rules.
> *
> 
> Creating a second account for just about any reason is grounds for a permanent ban.
> 
> Yes, short time-out bans work. They work to help the person step back and think about what they post.
> 
> I got a few week ban one time (before I was a mod) because I told someone to stop thread jacking after a mod issued a warning. Mods today are much more lenient than that.
> 
> 
> 
> Yea, it would be nice if people could get along. Do you really think that posting a threat that is basically an attack on women and then having post after post of men saying things like women, by nature, are not loyal and other derogatory things is anyone trying to get along?


I have said here a few times that I would like to hit MrH V2 upside the head. Also mentioned how "stabby" he makes me feel at times. > But this is how we talk down in the land of Oz. Is not a threat, is just an immature SOH

Seriously I need a good banning.


----------



## 269370

It's actually pretty difficult NOT to get banned I found...
I think I was banned on my third or fourth post when I first started posting here...

I really wonder if separating TAM into male/female sub-forums might not work better: the various prejudices, agendas, personal biases and double standards run too deep and there will always be this push/pull among the sexes. The topics are so emotionally charged and it's so easy to slip up that basically one wrong turn of the phrase is all it takes to create a massive conflict or get banned for good.
It may not be as fun if forums are separated but if the aim is to get more women 'on board' for comment, I am sure that would seem to be the best way to achieve it...
Though somehow it will be kind of ironic: a marriage forum where men and women are not allowed to talk to each other


----------



## EleGirl

sokillme said:


> How did this thread devolve into a thread about how bad the posters are here. Talk about thread jack.
> 
> 
> @EleGirl feel free to call me on any women's post where the husband is cheating. I will be glad to tell her all the ways he is a monster and completely disposable like garbage.


I know that you will :grin2:


----------



## EleGirl

MrsHolland said:


> I have said here a few times that I would like to hit MrH V2 upside the head. Also mentioned how "stabby" he makes me feel at times. > But this is how we talk down in the land of Oz. Is not a threat, is just an immature SOH
> 
> Seriously I need a good banning.


I've not seen you post those things. And apparently no one reported it.

The person who was banned said he wanted to punch the OP in the face. I think that's a lot different than what you say here.


----------



## MrsHolland

inmyprime said:


> It's actually pretty difficult NOT to get banned I found...
> I think I was banned on my third or fourth post when I first started posting here...
> 
> I really wonder if separating TAM into male/female sub-forums might not work better: the various prejudices, agendas, personal biases and double standards run too deep and there will always be this push/pull among the sexes. The topics are so emotionally charged and it's so easy to slip up that basically one wrong turn of the phrase is all it takes to create a massive conflict or get banned for good.
> It may not be as fun if forums are separated but if the aim is to get more women 'on board' for comment, I am sure that would seem to be the best way to achieve it...
> Though somehow it will be kind of ironic: a marriage forum where men and women are not allowed to talk to each other


Maybe separating into rational/irrational would be better than a division of genders. Just bc I am female doesn't mean I only seek female support or interaction. Often I disagree with other women and agree with some of the men. Tis not a gender issue, more of a respectful behaviour issue.


----------



## EleGirl

inmyprime said:


> It's actually pretty difficult NOT to get banned I found...
> I think I was banned on my third or fourth post when I first started posting here...
> 
> I really wonder if separating TAM into male/female sub-forums might not work better: the various prejudices, agendas, personal biases and double standards run too deep and there will always be this push/pull among the sexes. The topics are so emotionally charged and it's so easy to slip up that basically one wrong turn of the phrase is all it takes to create a massive conflict or get banned for good.
> 
> It may not be as fun if forums are separated but if the aim is to get more women 'on board' for comment, I am sure that would seem to be the best way to achieve it...
> 
> Though somehow it will be kind of ironic: a marriage forum where men and women are not allowed to talk to each other


I think separate forums by gender is a very bad idea. People learn by interact with those who are different. 

Seems to me that it's healthy to duke it out (verbally) to hash this stuff out.

For example a lot of the gross generalizations about women on this thread are just ridiculous. And perhaps those who have the gross generalizations stuck in their heads need someone to push back at them to get them to think about it more. Once day these discussions might just push through their wall and they might realize that their wife, and their wife alone, is responsible for her behavior. It's not all women, it's their wife that is their problem.

If people's prejudices are never challenged and they only hear cheering for their hate, then they will just continue to hate. And yes, I read a lot of the posts on this thread and others like it as hate & anger towards all women.


----------



## 269370

MrsHolland said:


> Maybe separating into rational/irrational would be better than a division of genders. Just bc I am female doesn't mean I only seek female support or interaction. Often I disagree with other women and agree with some of the men. Tis not a gender issue, more of a respectful behaviour issue.


For you, yes. For many others, I am not sure. The main problem as I see it, most people who are hear have been hurt badly one way or another. Many automatically carry resentment towards the other sex (some maybe don't even know it, but it's there). Something a poster writes triggers them, they see their ex in the post and they see 'red' and that's it - no rational discussion is possible anymore.
Whether it's any hint of violent speak or cheating spouse or anything else: the only way to resolve it is to remove the trigger. 

Most people are rational...until they are not.


----------



## FrenchFry

inmyprime said:


> For you, yes. For many others, I am not sure. The main problem as I see it, most people who are hear have been hurt badly one way or another. Many automatically carry resentment towards the other sex (some maybe don't even know it, but it's there). Something a poster writes triggers them, they see their ex in the post and they see 'red' and that's it - no rational discussion is possible anymore.
> Whether it's any hint of violent speak or cheating spouse or anything else: the only way to resolve it is to remove the trigger.
> 
> Most people are rational...until they are not.


If your trigger is ~half the planet it's not on the planet to adjust to you.


----------



## 269370

EleGirl said:


> I think separate forums by gender is a very bad idea. People learn by interact with those who are different.
> 
> Seems to me that it's healthy to duke it out (verbally) to hash this stuff out.
> 
> For example a lot of the gross generalizations about women on this thread are just ridiculous. And perhaps those who have the gross generalizations stuck in their heads need someone to push back at them to get them to think about it more. Once day these discussions might just push through their wall and they might realize that their wife, and their wife alone, is responsible for her behavior. It's not all women, it's their wife that is their problem.
> 
> If people's prejudices are never challenged and they only hear cheering for their hate, then they will just continue to hate. And yes, I read a lot of the posts on this thread and others like it as hate & anger towards all women.


Oh it's incredibly hard to actively try and change somebody's mind through direct dialogue - i doubt it's even possible. I think what's more likely to happen is when somebody else _reads_ a thread about a topic and passively changes their mind when they read a different perspective (but that may also not be very likely). 

Yes I agree that separating forums by gender will basically result in cheering and with pretty much hardly any arguments/disagreements. It will probably kill traffic flow as well. But your concern was women not participating enough and the only way to change that balance is to restrict men from posting. To try and control _what_ they are posting seems like an impossible task...Who are these men supposed to be challenged by?


----------



## EleGirl

Rick Blaine said:


> No, he cheated. He was not loyal. Apples to oranges. (And I am very sorry your husband did that to you.)


But you still think that I was wrong for leaving a man who cheated. Look at what you wrote below..... 



Rick Blaine said:


> Whether a women walks *out of the marriage because of an affair* or because she's fed up, *the men on the other side are often blindsided by a spouse who went nuclear on them*. They become remorseful about the factors that contributed to her decision to leave. But rather than working out the issue with the husband the wife leaves. I recognize that in some cases the men ignored the wife's pleas. But so often women shut down and are not willing to do the work required to reignite the flame even though the husband is willing. *Their hearts harden and they forsake their vows*.


You are saying that I was wrong because my cheating ex was blindsided when I walked out on him because of affairs and other things. That because he did not want the divorce and he was remorseful I was not loyal because I left. According to the last sentence in the above quote, you are saying that I had a hardened hart and forsake my vows.

Really?


----------



## Red Sonja

Rick Blaine said:


> Whether a women walks out of the marriage because of an affair or because she's fed up, the men on the other side are often blindsided by a spouse who went nuclear on them. They become remorseful about the factors that contributed to her decision to leave. But rather than working out the issue with the husband the wife leaves. I recognize that in some cases the men ignored the wife's pleas. But so often women shut down and are not willing to do the work required to reignite the flame even though the husband is willing. Their hearts harden and they forsake their vows.


So you are saying if a person is told (repeatedly) that their behavior is seriously hurting their spouse and, they (repeatedly) ignore their spouse’s pleas for change/compromise/MC, it’s okay as long as they have remorse later when there are consequences for their behavior and so deserve yet another chance? Seriously?!

:surprise:


----------



## Rick Blaine

Red Sonja said:


> So you are saying if a person is told (repeatedly) that their behavior is seriously hurting their spouse and, they (repeatedly) ignore their spouse’s pleas for change/compromise/MC, it’s okay as long as they have remorse later when there are consequences for their behavior and so deserve yet another chance? Seriously?!
> 
> :surprise:


No, I am not saying that. I have posted here too many times to count that a spouse needs to establish and enforce boundaries. What I am saying is that the many wives leave their husbands without giving them a chance to rectify their behavior. There is no such thing as a perfect spouse. That is why the vows state for better or worse.


----------



## Rick Blaine

EleGirl said:


> But you still think that I was wrong for leaving a man who cheated. Look at what you wrote below.....
> 
> 
> 
> You are saying that I was wrong because my cheating ex was blindsided when I walked out on him because of affairs and other things. That because he did not want the divorce and he was remorseful I was not loyal because I left. According to the last sentence in the above quote, you are saying that I had a hardened hart and forsake my vows.
> 
> Really?


No, that is not what I was implying or saying.


----------



## EleGirl

inmyprime said:


> Oh it's incredibly hard to actively try and change somebody's mind through direct dialogue - i doubt it's even possible. I think what's more likely to happen is when somebody else _reads_ a thread about a topic and passively changes their mind when they read a different perspective.
> 
> Yes I agree that separating forums by gender will basically result in cheering and with pretty much hardly any arguments/disagreements.


There are a lot of good men and women who post on TAM. It would be counter productive to not allow them to talk together. Shoot, with your idea, maybe women should just wear burkas to protect men from thinking unsavory things. What do you think? (I hope you know I'm using some hyperbole here to get a point across.

I'm of with people who are just reading on TAM who make some good changes to their way of thinking. There hundreds of people who read on TAM for every person who posts.



inmyprime said:


> But your concern was women not participating enough and the only way to change that balance is to restrict men from posting. To try and control _what_ they are posting seems like an impossible task...Who are these men supposed to be challenged by?


Have you ever read the TAM posting rules? We have all kinds of things that we restrict. We mods quietly delete threads, posts and ban people daily. Most of it's not even noticed by the TAM members. 

For example we do not allow the being rude to other members, we don't allow name calling, racist and sexist talk.



inmyprime said:


> To try and control _what_ they are posting seems like an impossible task...Who are these men supposed to be challenged by?


There have been a few times on TAM when a woman posted something similar to the OP with gender's reversed... accusing all men of being terrible. And do you know what happened on those threads. It was not just the men who told the OP that she was making gross generalizations and was wrong, the women on TAM also told her that her generalizations were wrong and to just stop it.


----------



## EleGirl

Rick Blaine said:


> No, that is not what I was implying or saying.


I'm sorry but that's what your words said. You said that if the man cheats and is remorseful the woman is wrong and breaks her vows if she leaves him. How can you deny what you said? Or maybe you can clarify?


----------



## 269370

EleGirl said:


> But you still think that I was wrong for leaving a man who cheated. Look at what you wrote below.....
> 
> 
> 
> You are saying that I was wrong because my cheating ex was blindsided when I walked out on him because of affairs and other things. That because he did not want the divorce and he was remorseful I was not loyal because I left. According to the last sentence in the above quote, you are saying that I had a hardened hart and forsake my vows.
> 
> Really?


Here is precisely the nub of the issue: by making a general statement about a sub-group of men and women, he is not judging you personally or talking about your abusive ex husband specifically.
This happens so much on both sides: somebody makes a general observation, somebody else takes it very personally. How is it possible to have a civilised conversation whenever this happens? Neither you or he are wrong because you both observed different things, in different situations. It's something about the form that needs to change in the way the posts are written, I am not sure what it is but it's a shame to have these things escalate unnecessarily.


----------



## Red Sonja

Rick Blaine said:


> No, I am not saying that. I have posted here too many times to count that a spouse needs to establish and enforce boundaries. What I am saying is that the many wives leave their husbands without giving them a chance to rectify their behavior. There is no such thing as a perfect spouse. That is why the vows state for better or worse.





Rick Blaine said:


> No, that is not what I was implying or saying.


Then perhaps you need to clarify your statement because your *words* do state exactly that. Or maybe you could be specific ... how many chances to rectify bad behavior should a person receive?

Note: In the case of a cheating spouse I have no problem with people who divorce immediately. For some cheating is an absolute deal breaker with no second chances. It is an offense from which some cannot recover.


----------



## MrsHolland

Rick Blaine said:


> No, I am not saying that. I have posted here too many times to count that a spouse needs to establish and enforce boundaries. What I am saying is that the many wives leave their husbands without giving them a chance to rectify their behavior. There is no such thing as a perfect spouse. That is why the vows state for better or worse.


Better or worse means in tough times and in good. Tough times does not mean that a spouse can for years ignore their partners needs and then get expect them to stick around. It is not that hard to actually listen to your spouses needs but if people ignore then that is to the detriment of the marriage. Being blindsided = having ignored their partner for a long time then when they get hit with divorce they cry "but I was blindsided". 

Of course their are exceptions but this whole walk away wife thing is a crock, an excuse to blame the wife when she finally has had enough of being ignored.

Why do people try so hard after the fact to fix things they break?


----------



## EleGirl

Rick Blaine said:


> No, I am not saying that. I have posted here too many times to count that a spouse needs to establish and enforce boundaries. What I am saying is that the many wives leave their husbands without giving them a chance to rectify their behavior. There is no such thing as a perfect spouse. That is why the vows state for better or worse.


The definition of a WAW is a woman to told her husband that there were problems for a long time.... YEARS. She asked for counseling, she asked that they work to fix things. He ignored her for YEARS. Then she just gives up and eventually leaves.

A person can set boundaries, but boundaries only work if the other person pays attention to them. If they don't care about your boundary, then it changes nothing.

So by definition, the WAW has given her husband years to rectify his behavior. And by definition he has refused to do so.


Let's look at an example here and you tell me what your advice would be. This is from a "WAW" that I know so it's a real situation.

A woman is married. She has a son and he has two children all from a previous marriage. They both work full time. They earn the same amount. They work the same number of hours a week. When he comes home he spends all of his free time on the computer and/or coaching football. 

He does not help raise his children. He does no housework, no yard word, spends zero time with his kids (who live 100% of the time at their place). 

So she does everything shopping, cooking, housework, yard work, takes care of her and his kids, goes to the school when they need to, actually drives the kids to school on her way to work in the morning. Takes the kinds to the their doctor appointments. Pays the bills, etc. etc. etc. Feeds the pets and takes then to the vet, etc. 

Now she has had talks with him. Told him very clearly that she needs for him to be involved, to do as close to 50% of all that it takes to run a home and raise the kids. He always says that he will do that. But he never does.

She also has tried to talk to him about them spending time together as a couple. He always agrees but then does not follow through. He finds a way to back out of anything that is planned.

She tries to get him to go to counseling. He sees no need for that.

Year after year, this goes on. After about 10 years of it she stops talking to him about it. At 12 years she files for divorce. The kids are all out of high school now. So she's done.

Now suddenly he's remorseful. Now he says he's going to do what he needs to do. She does not believe him because he's said that 1000 times before and has never lifted a finger. 

So what is your advice to this woman? She is a classic, by definition WAW. Are you going to tell her that now if she leaves, she is breaking her vows? That she has to stay and see if this time he really means that he's going to change?

What's your advice?


----------



## EleGirl

MrsHolland said:


> Better or worse means in tough times and in good. Tough times does not mean that a spouse can for years ignore their partners needs and then get expect them to stick around. It is not that hard to actually listen to your spouses needs but if people ignore then that is to the detriment of the marriage. Being blindsided = having ignored their partner for a long time then when they get hit with divorce they cry "but I was blindsided".
> 
> Of course their are exceptions but this whole walk away wife thing is a crock, an excuse to blame the wife when she finally has had enough of being ignored.
> 
> Why do people try so hard after the fact to fix things they break?


I have zero sympathy for people who ignore their spouse's needs on a consistent basis for a long time. When their spouse tells them what the problem is.

You are right that for better or worse means the ups and downs that life throws at every one of us.

*Things that fall under "Worse" are:*
A miscarriage or loss of a child.
A serious illness.
Loss of a income/job.
Someone drive their car through your front window. 

"Worse" in the vows does not mean that you have to put up with a seriously neglectful or abusive spouse.


----------



## Red Sonja

inmyprime said:


> Here is precisely the nub of the issue: by making a general statement about a sub-group of men and women, he is not judging you personally or talking about your abusive ex husband specifically.
> This happens so much on both sides: somebody makes a general observation, somebody else takes it very personally. How is it possible to have a civilised conversation whenever this happens? Neither you or he are wrong because you both observed different things, in different situations. It's something about the form that needs to change in the way the posts are written, I am not sure what it is but it's a shame to have these things escalate unnecessarily.


Here is the difference ... making a general (derogatory) statement about "women/wife" or "men/husband" instead of "spouse/partner" is what escalates these posts.

It amounts to projecting bad behavior on all women (or all men) and it's offensive because it is evident that the poster believes what he is saying.


----------



## 269370

EleGirl said:


> There are a lot of good men and women who post on TAM. It would be counter productive to not allow them to talk together. Shoot, with your idea, maybe women should just wear burkas to protect men from thinking unsavory things. What do you think? (I hope you know I'm using some hyperbole here to get a point across.
> 
> I'm of with people who are just reading on TAM who make some good changes to their way of thinking. There hundreds of people who read on TAM for every person who posts.
> 
> 
> 
> Have you ever read the TAM posting rules? We have all kinds of things that we restrict. We mods quietly delete threads, posts and ban people daily. Most of it's not even noticed by the TAM members.
> 
> For example we do not allow the being rude to other members, we don't allow name calling, racist *and sexist talk.*


But 99.9999% of threads *are* sexist, for better or for worse. Whenever a post starts with: "why do many women...." or "most men are....." By definition, it's ALL sexist because we all talk about the sexes and the various problems and it's quicker to result to generalisations (and any generalisation on a relationship forum IS sexist). Unless I am not understanding what you mean by sexism.

Regarding post moderation: this is the thing though: it doesn't seem to make sense on the one hand to expect 'democracy' to work (to have one sex 'pushing' against the other sex, whenever they are wrong or overstepping the line and self-correct) yet practice a quasi-dictatorship: by deleting/banning people for content they post: the two things seem incompatible. Either the forum can work on its own with natural forces (both sides arguing and making points) or it doesn't...The fact that so much content needs to be edited (and we are not just talking about simply removing spam), seems to be an indication that it doesn't quite work in the way it was intended.

Anyway...I better stop because I worry I will soon be 'moderated'. :banned2:

I am feeling like wearing a little burka right now myself


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## 269370

Red Sonja said:


> Here is the difference ... making a general (derogatory) statement about "women/wife" or "men/husband" instead of "spouse/partner" is what escalates these posts.
> 
> It amounts to projecting bad behavior on all women (or all men) and it's offensive because it is evident that the poster believes what he is saying.


It may seem like it's 'all' but it's not all: at the end of the post, there was this:

"Obviously, this doesn't apply to everyone who marries." 

I didn't read it as 'all women' do this or that. I would have thought that it would make absolutely no sense to actually believe that ALL women or ALL men are this or that - that is by definition not possible.

It think it would be good to clarify what the best form is, to avoid this type of conflict. 
Which statement is offensive/non-offensive when addressing somebody's problem:

1. Women tend to get moody before the period, that's why your wife might be etc
2. Many/Some women tend to get moody before their period....etc
3. Or never refer to other/any/many/most/women at all and stick with the comment specifically directed at the spouse and her period? 

Or

1. Men tend to get grumpy if they are hungry, that's why your husband might have...etc
2. Many/some men tend get grumpy if they are hungry...
3. Or never group any hungry men together?

I'd like to understand how/what's acceptable because this seems to be the singular issue that is causing SO MUCH grief on both sides (I don't mean the being on period or being hungry bit . But it's something about the phrasing.


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## chillymorn69

Very sad 

That the cry babies of the world usually get there way!


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## EleGirl

inmyprime said:


> But 99.9999% of threads *are* sexist, for better or for worse. Whenever a post starts with: "why do many women...." or "most men are....." By definition, it's ALL sexist because we all talk about the sexes and the various problems and it's quicker to result to generalisations (and any generalisation on a relationship forum IS sexist). Unless I am not understanding what you mean by sexism.


So a guy starts a tread with this……. 
“I am seeing that whatever the husband does, eg house work, pushes himself at work, goes to the gym , buys her expensive gifts etc, the wife is still moaning because of some petty thing or other.” 

Instead of replying with some rant of generalizations that supposedly prove that men, even if they cheat and beat their wives are more loyal to marriage than women are…. There is probably a better way to respond that first does not resort to gross generalizations and secondly gets to the bottom of the OP’s real problem.

The OP’s real problem is not “women”. His real problem is that he is putting up with his wife abusing him. He needs help seeing that his problem is real and it’s his wife, not all women. Using the generalization of ‘women’ being the boggy man (boggy woman???) allows him to make excuses for him not dealing with the problem at hand. What good does it do to jump on his generalized, sexist rant and carry on with it? Why not help him find some solutions instead? Or was the purpose of this thread just so that some men could just rant about the boggy-women?


inmyprime said:


> Regarding post moderation: this is the thing though: it doesn't seem to make sense on the one hand to expect 'democracy' to work (to have one sex 'pushing' against the other sex, whenever they are wrong or overstepping the line and self-correct) yet practice a quasi-dictatorship: by deleting/banning people for content they post: the two things seem incompatible. Either the forum can work on its own with natural forces (both sides arguing and making points) or it doesn't...The fact that so much content needs to be edited (and we are not just talking about simply removing spam), seems to be an indication that it doesn't quite work in the way it was intended.


TAM is not a democracy. TAM is a business. It loses money when people are run off because there is thread after thread of men ranting on about how women are the bases of all evil in the world. A thread equivalent to this one posted by a woman would be deleted in a heartbeat by every moderator on TAM. The one I can think of that did happen was deleted. After the men and WOMEN on TAM set the OP straight. 
If the owners of TAM want TAM to be a red pill, manosphere, anti-woman hate site, they can do that. They would need to tell the moderators that this is their choice. Then and just about every who posts on TAM now would leave so fast it would make your head spin.


inmyprime said:


> Anyway...I better stop because I worry I will soon be 'moderated'. :banned2:


Maybe I’ll nominate you??????? LOL



inmyprime said:


> I am feeling like wearing a little burka right now myself


Hm… a burka for men… now there’s an idea… LOL /jk


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## VladDracul

inmyprime said:


> But 99.9999% of threads *are* Whenever a post starts with: "why do many women...." or "most men are....." By definition, it's ALL sexist because we all talk about the sexes and the various problems and it's quicker to result to generalisations (and any generalisation on a relationship forum IS sexist). Unless I am not understanding what you mean by sexism.


By human created definition some post may be sexist but they are often true. At least during my life, soon approaching three quarters of a century, there are inherent differences in men and women beyond their plumbing.


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## Red Sonja

inmyprime said:


> It think it would be good to clarify what the best form is, to avoid this type of conflict.
> Which statement is offensive/non-offensive when addressing somebody's problem:
> 
> 1. Women tend to get moody before the period, that's why your wife might be etc
> 2. Many/Some women tend to get moody before their period....etc
> 3. Or never refer to other/any/many/most/women at all and stick with the comment specifically directed at the spouse and her period?
> 
> Or
> 
> 1. Men tend to get grumpy if they are hungry, that's why your husband might have...etc
> 2. Many/some men tend get grumpy if they are hungry...
> 3. Or never group any hungry men together?


I think I was clear enough in my post … either use gender neutral terms or talk about your specific situation … e.g. “my wife/husband is” as opposed to “women/men are”.

You just had to go _there _didn’t you? PMDD is a serious and debilitating medical condition; the NIH estimates that 3 to 8% of women of reproductive age have PMDD. For any person to make light of this condition and/or blame every emotion/mood women have on menstruation/hormones is _offensive_.

The equivalent would be me, as a female, saying “Meh, my husband’s just moody because he has ED.”


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## wild jade

TAM2013 said:


> Oh that's just great. Now we have the biological engineering too. The rise of high T women with huge clits/no tits and low T men with literally no balls. Bang goes breast feeding. Word has it down at the maternity ward, more and more babies are of indeterminate sex and in 500 years we're all androgynous and reproduce by parthenogenesis.


Oh, you needn't worry about testosterone. It's estrogen (and related) that's causing all the issues. Women aren't becoming more manly, they're menstruating at very young ages, developing earlier. More womanly, you might say.


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## wild jade

Rick Blaine said:


> The term walk-away wife explains what the statistics have revealed. We've read anecdotal verification here in a daily queue of threads that steadily moves like the sun rising in the East and setting in the west. This phenominan has been discussed and explained by marriage experts in great detail. I'm not sure why this is fuzzy to some. It's not to the experts.
> 
> The phenominan is just that...a trend that encompasses a specific behavior by a specific group. Not all women fit into this category walk away wife. In fact, most don't as evidenced by the fact that half of marriages do not end in divorce. *But men are more committed and devout in the long run, a fact that really surprises me. I thought before that the opposite is true.* Women will walk away when they get fed up or when they want something new. Men are more likely to try and save the marriage. And for those men who cheat they usually want to cake eat not exit the marriage. Of course, there are plenty of exceptions but in general these are the trends. An uncomfortable truth, but the truth.


Men are more committed? LOL. I thought it was women who wanted relationships and men gave into them because they just wanted sex.


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## TX-SC

My experience has been that most marriages are more equal than what is being expressed here. My wife and I have equal say and equal "power" in the marriage. I don't personally see marriage as a power struggle.

However, I do believe that the courts in America and the UK tend to lean heavily toward the mother and not the father. Both Danny and Sid, each of which mounted an exemplary defense, still got the short end of the stick, and for no good reason. I have seen the same happen here in the States.

Until the courts start providing equal judgements, women will have more overall power in divorce. Women do often come away from divorce with more money and more child time than men. 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## Stang197

TX-SC said:


> My experience has been that most marriages are more equal than what is being expressed here. My wife and I have equal say and equal "power" in the marriage. I don't personally see marriage as a power struggle.
> 
> However, I do believe that the courts in America and the UK tend to lean heavily toward the mother and not the father. Both Danny and Sid, each of which mounted an exemplary defense, still got the short end of the stick, and for no good reason. I have seen the same happen here in the States.
> 
> Until the courts start providing equal judgements, women will have more overall power in divorce. Women do often come away from divorce with more money and more child time than men.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk



Yup. This hits the nail on the head. This is why marriage should be avoided at all costs. This is why once your married the relationship goes downhill. These laws need to be changed or marriage is simply not worth the risk.


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## 269370

Red Sonja said:


> I think I was clear enough in my post … either use gender neutral terms or talk about your specific situation … e.g. “my wife/husband is” as opposed to “women/men are”.
> 
> 
> 
> You just had to go _there _didn’t you? PMDD is a serious and debilitating medical condition; the NIH estimates that 3 to 8% of women of reproductive age have PMDD. For any person to make light of this condition and/or blame every emotion/mood women have on menstruation/hormones is _offensive_.
> 
> 
> 
> The equivalent would be me, as a female, saying “Meh, my husband’s just moody because he has ED.”




Not every emotion...just the moodiness 
I tried being fair: being hungry can also be serious. People die of hunger each day.
Anyway, not sure you understood my post at all (but decided to get offended, just in case): sometimes you cannot make a point about individual circumstances without referring to a problem, that affects many/some sub-group of people, whether it’s of the same sex or some other characteristic.

It’s like saying: ‘your child is feverish: many children with malaria do this or that, to relief their symptoms.’ Now, why would this be knocking anyone with malaria?? (Supposing the child was unfortunate to contract malaria).

ED: don’t see how it’s the same at all! Many/some/certain men have ED and can be moody as a result (see? That worked in a sentence ), what’s your point?
I’m not offended because I’m not one of the men with ED nor am I particularly moody!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370

Red Sonja said:


> You just had to go _there _didn’t you? PMDD is a serious and debilitating medical condition; the NIH estimates that 3 to 8% of women of reproductive age have PMDD. For any person to make light of this condition and/or blame every emotion/mood women have on menstruation/hormones is _offensive_.


Also, you were actually using exactly the same phrasing that I asked about:

saying that 'NIH estimates that 3-8% of women have PMDD' is equivalent to saying: '_*some*_ women suffer from PMDD'. And to use that in a sentence, would be:
'your wife may have said this or that because she might be suffering from PMDD. As you know, some women suffer from PMDD' etc.
Yet you found it offensive. 

I am confused: did you find it offensive because I didn't mention the exact percentage or because you got out of it that 'every emotion' was blamed on it? (note how I didn't mention the word 'every emotion' absolutely nowhere in my post!!).
People (some people/a very small subset of people/like less than 0.00001% of people) should sometimes(/rarely/occasionally/like 0.00001% of the time) try not to get offended for the sake of getting offended.
And I am trying to find the best/most acceptable way to learn to phrase things, so that it doesn't happen so much/often/occasionally/between 70-80% of the time.
:scratchhead:


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