# How to bring this up



## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

Hello,

Background, I have a thread in CWI from 2 years ago where I had a ONS. Married 19 years this summer, sex has always been an issue.

Twice during our marriage my wife has been told by doctors that she needs to take testosterone as she has none. Like the number on the report is lower than detection limit. The first time it was sublingual, which is not the best method as it can cause spikes.

She took that for a bit, sex improved, but she felt she would lose her temper with our son. So, it stopped, everything went back to normal.

The second time, she was given a cream. This was mid-December. It was a 1 month supply (30 applications). It is now mid-February and she still has 7 left. So, we are looking at best an every other day use, however it is much more clumped then that. When she does use it days in a row, things improve greatly. Like 2 weeks ago she used it 3-4 days in a row and we had sex 3 days in a row.

However, she now thinks it has caused an ingrown hair or something. So it has been about a week since she used it. It seems that she is quick to find a reason not to take it.

In comparison, she could not switch to an SNRI from welbutrin fast enough. Despite our previous experience with an SSRI that absolutely made her uninterested and an-orgasmic.

I feel like anything that could possibly make her desire sex is full of problems, even though there is a clear medical indication of an issue. I want to talk about it, but I hate talking about this.

Also, in case this comes up:

I completely owned up an confessed to the affair on my own, the day after it happened. It is in my other thread.

I have read mmslp, and when I put it into practice she busted out in tears. I still do a lot of the things, but I am at a loss for what to do with this.


----------



## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

part of mmsl is to cause her stress, which can cause tears. this means it is/was working. She knows what she needs to do, but can't. Do to the lack of T, and this being medical, needs to be addressed.


----------



## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Sexual fulfillment is not a priority to her, like it is to you.

Sexual drive is not the issue.

Every marriage has mismatches in what one person wants to give versus what the other person wants to receive.

That's the problem to solve. Once you do that, she will take her pills.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

You are being as kind and considerate as you can be, in a way that she would define as kind and considerate, right?


----------



## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

I know I have issues with being a nice guy, and a lot of that has changed. Also, my bother and I both seem to be co-dependant.

Hicks, I am not sure what you are getting at. There is something I am not giving her?


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Nice guy is not the same as kind and considerate. Kind and considerate is doing the right thing just to do the right thing. Nice guy is all about the payoff you get for doing it.


----------



## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

Oh, I have been a nice guy for years. Doing the things that people on this forum have done over and over. If I take on more, if I do this, if I jump through this hoop maybe she will sprinkle some affection towards me.

I lived that way for years and years. I still fall into it, pushing my feelings down. That is what blew up in the ONS years ago.


----------



## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Tasorundo said:


> Hicks, I am not sure what you are getting at. There is something I am not giving her?


There are only a few basic problems in marriage.
1. If she is not having her needs met, then she will purposely not want to meet your needs so you can see this fact.
2. If she is having her needs met, and refuses to meet your needs she either a) does not understand the concept of marital give and take or b) she is very selfish.

If you have a 2b wife, then you cannot fix it, and need to get a divorce.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Tasorundo said:


> Oh, I have been a nice guy for years. Doing the things that people on this forum have done over and over. If I take on more, if I do this, if I jump through this hoop maybe she will sprinkle some affection towards me.
> 
> I lived that way for years and years. I still fall into it, pushing my feelings down. That is what blew up in the ONS years ago.


Because you were doing it to get something, not just to do it for the sake of doing it, because it was the right thing to do, with no hope of reward. That is what NMMNG talks about.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

How was your affair dealt with? Maybe she's not over it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

jld, so doing it for a hope of reward is bad, doing it because it is the right thing is good?

Life, I have talked with her about that. I openly told everyone we know, my parents, our friends, etc. I went through counseling, we did counseling together, she did some on her own. I planned a vow renewal ceremony on our anniversary and all the guests knew why we were doing it, because I told them all personally. Not at the ceremony, but individually in person.

On a similar note, anytime her counseling gets to the subject of her sexual desire and relationship with me, that is about when she stops going.


----------



## roostr (Oct 20, 2012)

I'm a believer that such low drives are most likely the result of other issues in the marriage, what ever they may be. Although a low drive could very well be a medical condition, it seems other factors play a roll in the desire, but that's my opinion. 

When I thought my wife had simply lost interest and she use to tell me she hates sex, she was screwing around. That was the underlying issue, nothing more. When you present the issue to a doctor, I just think that they automatically point to a medical issue, understandably.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Yes.

And you should listen to Hicks. If she is a 2b, it is unlikely to change.


----------



## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

I know people say it, but she isn't having an affair. We actually moved across country after Christmas, so if she was there, she isn't here.

I have looked at texts, phone records, aps, tracking the iphone, all looking for a reason why. She is 100% where she says and nothing in any conversations.

I have seen her labs, there is definitely and issue there, and the medication fixes it, she just wont keep it up. To me, it is like a LD husband not taking Cialis and then wondering why his wife is upset he doesn't want to have sex.


----------



## kalimata (Jan 29, 2014)

Is vaginal dryness an issue for her? If so what are you using for lube?


----------



## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

It's sounds to me, like you state with medical back-up, she has a hormone imbalance.

Of course, motivating people with hormone imbalances to fix them is the difficult thing.

Take any number of depressed individuals who refuse to take medication even though they feel better when they do.

Take any number of overweight, unhealthy people who hate themselves for being the way the are but won't do anything about it. Making the whole family miserable in the process.

How do you get a person to help themselves when they don't want to? Except in this case - it's how do you get her to improve YOUR situation by helping herself when she doesn't want to?

Was your affair a result of this issue?

I mean really, is there anything to say aside from the fact that this situation is eroding your marriage and you are unable to live with this long term?


----------



## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

Dryness is not an issue, and we do have various lubes available.

I am not going to say my affair was a result of this issue, because it was a result of my choices. The whole thing happened in a blur and as it was progressing I did not stop it, partially because the whole thing was ridiculous to me as those things don't happen outside of movies.

I would say that she has always been low T, our mis-matched desires have been present for the almost 18 years of marriage. I think that she has to WANT to fix it is what hurts when she doesn't.

On the plus side, she started it again a few days ago, and what do you know, we had sex twice and she was very responsive to my initiation. There are only 3 doses left, and I am not sure if she has a refill, so I am guessing this will be the end of it for a while. It will take real effort to get more, not just using it.

I know she loves me, I know she has this issue. It is a difficult subject and time to bring it up. I have to travel next week for work, and it is to the same city where the affair happened.


----------



## poppyseed (Dec 22, 2013)

staarz21 said:


> I hear you say what you did to fix the affair. You confessed, told everyone, planned a renewing of vows. How did your wife deal with it? Did you have the affair because of lack of sex? Did you know her Testosterone was low when you had the affair?
> 
> Sorry for the questions. If she never worked through the affair, that could be reasoning for lack of affection and motivation to want to continue with T therapy.


Me too.. I think it was extremely considerate / ethical of you who had confessed. You're a good man but honesty can be interpreted by someone like her as "unkind". She may have been feeling deeply humiliated as you shared such a deeply personal "strictly marital issue" with the whole family, who are now aware of the problem (stemming from "her" hormone issues). 

This can be extremely upsetting, more so than the affair itself.I think the relationship became damaged further. I personally wouldn't think this had helped the whole situation. 

Have you asked her if she still fancies you? Her behaviour is somewhat telling that she doesn't? If she loved you deeply then I would have thought she would try harder...?

PS having read your last post: wish you much good luck!


----------



## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

All of the confession was with her consent. Actually the night I told her, we both agreed that I would tell everyone in our circle.

I will never know if she has processed it. I have given her opportunities to discuss it, she has gone to counseling, we have gone to counseling, etc. If she has or hasn't there is not much else I can do at this point.

Thanks for the good luck wishes! I don't think I was really expecting anyone to have an amazing idea to fix this, it felt good to get it off my chest.


----------



## JerryB (Feb 13, 2014)

Wow, touching story. You own up to everything like a man, Tasorundo. 

This reminds me of patients who need to take drugs to help with their psychosis, and after a while, they feel like they're cured, or just feel like they don't need to take it anymore.

And of course once they're off it and go crazy again, they are too crazy to voluntarily get back on their meds.

Not that I'm saying your wife is crazy. But many people with Low T are going to have very little impotence to do anything. And anyone with Low T is not feeling like they're missing sex... so why take something for more sex?

And when she is on it... I bet once she has a lot of sex (a lot in her mind) She's probably good for the month. Or she even starts thinking you want her on this just for the sex, and not for her well-being. 


> On the plus side, she started it again a few days ago, and what do you know, we had sex twice and she was very responsive to my initiation.


----------



## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

So, been back from the trip for a week. Before I left it was rough, she was extremely emotional and had too much to drink one night. I just held her and comforted her as best I can.

She did get the prescription filled, however there have only been 2 doses used in 2 weeks. Also, it seems to cause a lot of other problems, even if it is only used 1/3rd of the time it is supposed to.

As for me, I am just really indifferent right now. I don't want to initiate, I don't feel bad about it. I just don't really care right now. I do not want to talk about sex, think about sex or really have sex.

There is a part of me that desperately wants her to show some initiative, but the rest is just unconcerned. I had a dream last night that she found a video for us to watch together, it wasn't porn, but it was an instructional thing about improving our sex life. It is crazy how turned on it made me that she took initiative in the dream. We didn't even have sex in the dream.

That somehow seems really sad to me as well.


----------



## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

You might ask for a referral to an endocrinologist....low T can be a sign of a thyroid issue. It was for me....I had a thyroid tumor. Doctors told me I was fine for 5 yrs until a car accident when a CT scan found it.when they took my thyroid and put me in permanent hypothyroidism I went from HD to no drive...that was a shock. I learned that if your thyroid levels are off then T is too. My guess is you need to get to the root of the issue. 

Back to HD with my synthetic thyroid meds...:-D
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

That would be nice, however she is already on thyroid meds. I think she is on about 7 different medications. The only one that causes problems is the T though......


----------



## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

Tasorundo said:


> jld, so doing it for a hope of reward is bad, doing it because it is the right thing is good?
> 
> Life, I have talked with her about that. I openly told everyone we know, my parents, our friends, etc. I went through counseling, we did counseling together, she did some on her own. I planned a vow renewal ceremony on our anniversary and all the guests knew why we were doing it, because I told them all personally. Not at the ceremony, but individually in person.
> 
> On a similar note, anytime her counseling gets to the subject of her sexual desire and relationship with me, that is about when she stops going.


Yes, the stereotypical Nice Guy, not to be confused with a guy who happens to be nice, does things not because he wants to but because he thinks those things are what will make people like him.

He does things because he thinks those things will make *that* girl love him, because he thinks it will make his wife want to bonk his brains out.

And then gets pissy and all 'passive aggressive' when they don't. They often can't understand why they often get sidelined while the confident, natural, guys succeed.

He isn't really nice at all and that behaviour will tend to have the opposite effect to what he wants.


----------



## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

It's funny, she keeps asking me if I am ok, like she knows I should be upset. I am not though, just keep on doing my thing. I am a little disengaged, but I am still making contact with her, etc. In the past I would withdraw and be everything you described above.

I am not being that way this time. I still text her every morning, wish her a good day, tell her I love her, etc.

I know I have nice-guy, codependency issues, and am working through them. Who knows where it will end up, but I have a feeling it will end up a lot like I am this week.


----------



## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

It's been 20 days since I posted here. The syringe of Testosterone sits at about 10 days used in 30 days. Nothing really different there.

We had a very brief, heated discussion about it last weekend. She said something about another side effect from it and I responded that I would rather not hear about them. She got mad and said something about how she was planning on having sex with me that night and my comment ruined it. To which I replied something like 'If I told you I had a sore on my penis would you think I wanted to have sex?'. She got madder and went to her side of the bed. I went to sleep.

In the morning there was a note from her with my keys apologizing for last night. There has not been a discussion of it since, other than a few texts messages that morning.

I find my self less and less attracted to her. I really don't feel like having sex and I certainly don't feel like initiating.

She said that she has felt weird since we moved (I changed jobs). With the new job was new insurance that moved her to a generic Cymbalta, and that seems to have triggered a change in her. Who knows. I just find myself not really caring anymore. I used to be more active in her health management, but her lack of care has just grown to indifference in me.

So, it feels good to spill this out here, thanks for reading.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Wow, you poor guy!

That's really good that you gave it right back to her. In the moment escalated the argument but the next day she obviously saw how unreasonable she has been.

I think you should follow that up with a frank discussion on how you feel about this marriage and what's happening to you.

Women just don't seem to understand (I know I didn't until I came here) that men feel loved when their woman willingly and happily has sex with them. We were taught not to give it up because boys only want one thing and will do anything to get it. That message totally invalidates a mans emotional need for sex and that is the message you have to fight against.

You wife must be made to understand that you are becoming completely disconnected from her, due to her lack of sexual desire for you. She must be made aware that this marriage isn't going to last when one person habitually feels unloved and unimportant.

Once you have that conversation, make it clear you think it's important she take her meds as directed, all of them, every day! 

She is not a doctor so if she is getting side effects she should report them to her doc to get medical advice; she doesn't stop taking her meds until her doctor tells her to.

If you developed epilepsy and had to take meds to control the seizures, would she expect you to do so? What about diabetes? What about blood pressure?

The Nice Guy is the guy who minimizes his own needs in favor of not rocking the boat. The Nice Guy is the guy who gives himself a NO before anyone else can. The Nice Guy is the guy who has weak or too fluid boundaries.

Is your marriage important to you? Do you know what you want for marital happiness? If your answers were yes and yes, make this a top priority issue. Stand up to the arguments, the tears and the anger. THIS is a strong man who commands respect.


----------



## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

It would be awesome if that was some sort of revelation to her. However, multiple books, counselors, conversations, ebbs and flows over the years have made the point a million times. I don't see much a point in talking about it anymore.


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

if your fulfilling all of her needs, i would say you should stop. take the most important one and only fulfill it when she fulfills your needs. 

let her know exactly what you are doing and why.

whenever she does fulfill your needs, enthusiastically fulfill hers. 

a lot of people think this is unfair and will only bring resentment, when you think about it, resentment is already there. what it does is makes sure that the marriage is fair and equal. 

she will have to carry half the resentment in the marriage if she wants to take any one of your needs off the table.


----------



## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

For some reason everybody on this website is either codependent, bipolar, borderline personality or narcissistic personality. There is no way in hell this many people in one cluster have all of these psychological conditions.

You likely do NOT have codependency. You're a dude and you're horny. That is life. Don't apologize for it.


----------



## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

We had a talk last night, she brought it up by asking why I have not initiated in a while. I said it was because I had not felt like it, that she had been acting off for a while and I did not want to pressure her.

She asked what I meant when I told her that the testosterone cream was a trigger for me. I explained, she countered by telling me why I was wrong. Also said that the cream won't change who she is. She used the word desire, in that I want her to desire me and the cream won't do that.

I know she did not mean it the way I am taking it, but it certainly did not make me feel good. Basically it confirms what I have been feeling for a while. She does not desire to desire me. She is ok having sex, she enjoys a good O and she gets something out of the intimacy of it. Just not enough to make it a priority or to ever think about it if I am not pushing it.

All in all, it is pretty hard to initiate when those are the thoughts in your head.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

So, she has now told you that she does not desire you, or even want to desire you. This is a critical moment. What are the consequences of her revelation? Those consequences are YOUR responsibility. If you refuse to give her consequences for this, then you can no longer claim any righteousness in complaining.

So, what are you going to DO about it?


----------



## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

Don't really have a plan.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Tasorundo said:


> Don't really have a plan.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, maybe that's why she doesn't desire you. Better get working on that man.


----------

