# Exs and old flames as OSFs



## darklilly23 (May 26, 2013)

So I was wondering what are the going thoughts and feelings on keeping 
Old flames and Exs as OSFs when you are in a relationship or marriage?

What are your boundaries on either side of the issue?

Please be open and honest in your ideas,
I came from a relationship where I was told there was only one way
to view this issue, but I think just like people are unique so are peoples views.
I am trying to "broaden my world views" here...
So I would like to really hear form "as many voices" 
As I can! 

I am really looking for a cross section of thought.

Thank you for viewing this thread!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Things that I consider:

1) How much is this person a part of my SO's life. If the ex is part of a social circle that my partner is in, work, or family in some way, I am more likely to work with it. I have been amused at how people want to call some 3 month or less relationship something meaningful that has progress on to friendship. No, I don't think so.

2) consider the person's behavior. Are they giving you that "I know your partner better than you don" routine or are they respectful AND deferential to you.

If not, get rid of them.


----------



## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

No. Never.


----------



## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

Nope. Not an option.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

It's a bad idea. Generally, we don't ever LOSE our full feelings for people that we were in love with at one point.

Keeping them in our lives is like having a back up plan if our current relationship doesn't work.

Previously, I remained 'friends' with a number of my exes. I know that this was because I worried about having someone if THIS relationship didn't work. 

They've all been purged and are gone. I don't need the security blanket.


----------



## galian84 (May 7, 2012)

Depends on how I feel about it...I more or less rely on my woman's intuition. 

My boyfriend works with one of his ex-girlfriends, but I never had a problem with it. 

I talk to my exes every now and then, just to catch up and see what's going on in their lives. But then again, none of them live close by.


----------



## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

I was thinking more about this. It also becomes a game of comparisons:

Wife doesn't cook for me - Ex GF made amazing meals.
Wife's cleaning is sub-par. Ex GF is a clean freak.
Hubby has to be reminded to take car in for service - Ex BF always took care of these things.

Our exes can sometimes look a lot more appealing when we're no longer romantically involved, especially during rocky periods.

It's also a matter of little jabs and shared information that comes naturally when you've been intimate in the past with these people.

It's not a good idea.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Absolutely not, no good can come from this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## whowouldhavethought (Jun 15, 2013)

I talk and visit my ef-GF (almost proposed) on a regular basis. I send her a short birthday email and another on on Xmas. She does the same for me. Other than that no email except for emergency (e.g., "I thought you would want to know that Mary Smith died and the funeral is at XYZ funeral home next Monday.")

Each time I go to old home town she and I get together for morning coffee and catch up. Her husband (I think) and my wife (most definitely) know of this. When my wife visits with me, she is invited to join us. I don't know what she is thinking, but there is nothing more than catching up with one of my oldest and dearest friends.

WWHT


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

It is totally possible but depends on those involved.

I am friends with my ex husband and know of others that are. 

If you cannot trust yourself then don't do it but I am a 100% faithful person and have no secret desires about my ex.


----------



## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

I wrote this for someone whose W had reconnected with an old flame, and it was seriously affecting his marriage:

Right now, the texts/conversations may very well be innocent, but they may soon morph into:

Their lives since they parted
Their relationships since they parted
Their families 
Their spouses
You
How you're an excellent father
How you're a great husband
How you're a wonderful guy
Your job
How your job keeps you busy
How you're job keeps you away
How she sometimes feels lonely when you're away
How she sometimes feels a little taken for granted
How she sometimes feels a little overburdened at home
How she feels that you don't ALWAYS listen to her
How she feels that you don't ALWAYS understand her
How she sometimes feels that you are not there for her
How...okay, maybe you're not ALWAYS such a wonderful guy
How she loved hearing from him again
How she loves talking to him again
How she looks forward to his texts/calls/e-mails now
How she feels young again
How she feels attractive again
How she feels appreciated again
How it's been so, so long since you made her feel that way
How er eyes have now been opened
How she now realizes what she truly wants and needs
How she now realizes that you can't give her that
How she now realizes that she "settled" for you
How insensitive you can be sometimes
How you can be a real jerk sometimes
How she wonders if they would have stayed together
How she now realizes tat she never really loved you
How she now realizes that she really loved him all along
How she ever could have fallen for a jerk like you
How you're the biggest a**hole she's ever known
How you're standing in the way of her true happiness
How you ruined her life
How she made a big mistake marrying you
How she made an even bigger mistake letting him get away
How they were really meant to be together
How she desperately has to get away from you
How she's definitely going to leave you
How she's been secretly talking to divorce lawyers
How they're going to live happily ever after...

...get the picture?


----------



## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Had an OSF from years before our marriage. The W had issues with that. OSF approved of W and W's veto power. The two became close as sisters. 40 years and 1100 miles away now, she and W run up the phone every week. A true friend of ours and the marriage. Can't work any other way. 

No EXs allowed.


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

There's just way more trouble than any possible good that could be derived from such a situation!


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

TCSRedhead said:


> It's a bad idea. Generally, we don't ever LOSE our full feelings for people that we were in love with at one point.
> 
> Keeping them in our lives is like having a back up plan if our current relationship doesn't work.
> 
> ...


Did you ever try to sabotage their efforts to date / have relationships with other women?


----------



## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> Did you ever try to sabotage their efforts to date / have relationships with other women?


Of course. You talk down about their new partner and commiserate when they complain even if you have no intention of taking them back. Not proud of it but it is the truth.

I let go of all of their contact info when Hub and I married.


----------



## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

TCSRedhead said:


> It's a bad idea. *Generally, we don't ever LOSE our full feelings for people that we were in love with at one point.*


This is one of the truest statements ever made on this board.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

TCSRedhead said:


> Of course. You talk down about their new partner and commiserate when they complain even if you have no intention of taking them back. Not proud of it but it is the truth.
> 
> I let go of all of their contact info when Hub and I married.


I've been a victim of this kind of behavior.


----------



## tryingtobebetter (Aug 6, 2012)

Generally considered a bad idea.

Well there are always exceptions. DW allowed me to contact my first love because it was clear FL was having problems, needed help. However:

1. there had been NC for over 20 years.
2. DW has always had an absolute veto about anything in this area.

They are now friends. FL talks more to DW than to me.


----------



## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

Can it be done, as in can all parties involved (person, ex and SO) be in a healthy enough situation with proper boundaries from all three enforced etc? Sure...but I'd say 1 out of 100.

There are ALWAYS small things in the background. Usually one of the two ex's still holds feelings, it happens but how often do you get the "we're good friends but awful partners...lets break up" where it's equally felt from both sides. In break ups, one of the two remains attached somewhat. The "remain friends" is used to stay close to that person because they haven't let go of their feelings.

Also, if you weren't compatible with an ex in the first place, what will make you great friends? It's nice, rosy and full of sunshine to think we can break up with people we've been intimate with and remain great friends, but it's not realistic.

My wife thought she could be friends with ex's, I let her feel that way, I wasn't worried because I know when it comes to people she used to be too optimistic and naive. But she gradually had some pitfalls, which I helped her through, and now she's a STAUNCH supporter of "No friends with ex's".

Plus what really nailed the coffin was when the woman I dated before her invited me out to lunch. I think the claw marks are still in the arm of the chair my wife was sitting in. LOL.

(PS, I said no to the ex and basically told her not to contact me. This was someone who we had a rocky break up but she still wanted to be "friends", and why not be FWB (before my wife of course). I said, so my mind isn't worth the effort by my body parts are?...nah) My wife knew this woman had wanted to be FWB.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Never. While there are always exceptions, the risks are very high.

The very rare interaction is fine. The high school 30 year reunion? Sure, stand there and chat for a few minutes with an ex. Bump into an ex at the store? Ok, no big deal. 

Any regular contact is just asking for trouble. It is not respectful of your marriage or your partner to engage in something risky to the relationship.


----------



## KingofIstatements (Jul 30, 2011)

I've had great difficulty with this issue, it's one of the reasons I found TAM several years ago- to try to find some perspective and work out of my head the struggle between not wanting to be seen as jealous, vs. the gnawing discomfort of feeling I was being deeply disrespected. (Agonizing about it like that was pointless- by talking about my concerns later I earned the scarlet “J” anyway...)

I agree that with OSF Ex’s the situational details make all the difference! I've never been bothered that my wife occasionally keeps in touch with her old long-term boyfriend over the phone, and we’ve visited his family when we’re in their town. Our kids have played together. Understandable. 

As our relationship developed, I became increasingly frustrated though with her continuing acceptance of periodic unannounced visits from the guy who’d been living with her before me, always at inconvenient times for us. Since he'd moved out, he’d come over to commiserate when having issues with his new girl, my wife admits some excitement to hear of his troubles. I couldn’t understand her deference to him in these situations after I let her know how I was troubled by it, since she said their relationship was “complicated”- he’d never considered her as a GF and had brought a parade or two of women home and f*ckd them under her roof while she was in another room.

I was asked by a counselor in IC awhile ago whether we'd discussed these kinds of boundaries. I’ve realized a few things in considering this:

-I never thought I'd need to- Assuming similar tolerances between people, I didn’t think I’d need to actually explain that it can be agonizing to see your partner prioritize someone else... who’s been inside them.

-I wasn’t given a choice- I was never asked if it was okay for him to drop by, and shortly after one visit my wife made a big deal joking about how his new woman was still jealous of her. I thought at the time (and still do) this was partly an attempt to distract my own concerns about his visits.

-Regarding the jealousy thing- Something that confused my thoughts, and I can only imagine also does to many other people in these situations- for me Don’t Be Jealous seemed to be framed as an appeal for me to be ‘better than that.’ A great setup for tail-chasing, that is!

My point from all this is: Even though he’s moved away now and very rarely contacts my wife- the way I view her, our relationship, and women in general has fundamentally changed from these combined experiences. And in reading blogs like this and others, I know I had a right to feel the way I did about those times, like coming home from working on my day off to get ready for leaving on a trip- to find them hanging out together drinking some of our leftover wedding wine. And nothing accomplished on her end to get ready to go, resulting in a very late night for us before a long drive the next day. 

Knowing what I do now about alpha widowing, and her reluctance to respect me, protect our relationship and distance him somewhat from her life, I would never have decided to invest in a marriage with her if I had a do-over. Maybe fun for awhile, but I should’ve just moved on eventually. 

I also can’t say that this has been a very positive motivator for me, seeing the kind of male behaviour she has chosen to reward. 


To the OP: If you're still here- What were your experiences around this in your last relationship? Do you agree with what people have been saying here?


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

KingofI, some of us have been there. Feeling uncomfortable, but unable to articulate convincingly just why.


----------



## pollywog (May 30, 2013)

I used to think occasional contact was ok over the years, now I don't. Ws hooked up with old HS girl friend after phone calls became more frequent.


----------



## movin on (Jan 24, 2012)

W and I broke up after dating for two years. She was seeing someone else at the time. We got back together and got married.18 years later the guy she was seeing while we was broke up was now her friend on Facebook. NO to the hell no.

I almost divorced her over it
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

One of the threads in cwi IS an ex where they just had coffee. Shes been luke warm at best with husband for several years.

She meets ex and decides he was the love of her life. d looming. Yes other issues but just sayin...

Oh other little detail. My wife had email ea with ex. Mar 2 2013. 758AM. I found out. I sqashed it early into the inappropriate stage nonetheless. Oh and 1 month turned out to be at least 5 months. The early stuff i found was pretty dull. It was just ramping up near the end.

I will never have that implicit 100% trust again. I hate that.


----------



## darklilly23 (May 26, 2013)

Wow you guys are awesome! Keep the thoughts on this rolling!
I am so excited to see my little thread ganing momentum... 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## darklilly23 (May 26, 2013)

BTW sorry to all that have bad situations involving this subject, trust me I understand in more ways than one.
Just check out my other thread in CWI...

To every one else thank you so much for your openness and honesty, much appreciated!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tm84 (Jul 24, 2011)

I was open with my wife about having remained friendly with a couple of exes on Facebook before we got married and she was ok with it. I'm not in regular contact with either of them, don't troll their profiles and my wife is free to see everything I do on there (which isn't much, besides posting on my own profile here and there). 

It can be done, if the spouses are on the same page about boundaries and if those boundaries are maintained. Considering my history with an EA, I tend to be hyper-vigilant about my boundaries in respect to women other than my wife.


----------



## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

With rare exception the people that defend this are people that have a problem giving things up for the relationship.

"He's JUST a friend. You can't tell me who I can and can't talk to! We're all adults here."

Successful relationships are ones where people RUN from potential temptations, not where they play with them.

Whatever good can come from remaining in contact with an ex, pails in comparison to the devastation it can cause a relationship.


----------



## darklilly23 (May 26, 2013)

KingofIstatements said:


> I've had great difficulty with this issue, it's one of the reasons I found TAM several years ago- to try to find some perspective and work out of my head the struggle between not wanting to be seen as jealous, vs. the gnawing discomfort of feeling I was being deeply disrespected. (Agonizing about it like that was pointless- by talking about my concerns later I earned the scarlet “J” anyway...)
> 
> I agree that with OSF Ex’s the situational details make all the difference! I've never been bothered that my wife occasionally keeps in touch with her old long-term boyfriend over the phone, and we’ve visited his family when we’re in their town. Our kids have played together. Understandable.
> 
> ...


Alpha widowing? Do tell more and is there such a thing for men to go through?
All the things you described about your wife sounds a lot like my stbxh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## KingofIstatements (Jul 30, 2011)

darklilly23 said:


> Alpha widowing? Do tell more and is there such a thing for men to go through?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's an admittedly unflattering term I've come across recently- but seems a fitting description of my wife's situation given the context. 

The relationship blogs I’ve seen it on usually use rather coarse language to describe it, I suppose its closely related to the idea of “The One Who Got Away”, though the fervent pining is becausethe man was a player- uncaring, emotionally unavailable, unwilling to provide any commitment or offer a stable relationship. Addiction to the cycles of drama / wondering who he’d choose to be with tonight- constant competition and anger with other random women or those closest to her (like my wife’s former best friend, at the time she was with him.) 

Like I said before, becoming aware of this reality of how some people actually work has not been the best motivator for me to want be a “good”, supportive husband, since his behaviour had earned him a place to stay, poontang from anyone he wanted, and an easy ride through the last few years of college (she wrote his papers for him.) It didn’t even cost him her friendship after moving out to a new woman. 

My wife also knew that when he visited he was coming around to sniff at her, and was maybe disappointed at the lack of drama that once I entered the picture I didn’t become caveman. The problem with that is that I really had no direct issues with him, he wasn’t the one opening the door and playing hostess...

Though you’d probably call it something different, and my hunch is that it doesn’t occur as often or have as long-lasting an effect, this is definitely something I have seen men influenced by also. My best friend’s relationship with his (now) wife, a beautiful, sweet, extremely intelligent woman, almost failed before it started because he was still stubbornly fixated on a chick who’d been good in bed, but had also played him against other men like a damn accordion.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

> Though you’d probably call it something different, and my hunch is that it doesn’t occur as often or have as long-lasting an effect, this is definitely something I have seen men influenced by also. My best friend’s relationship with his (now) wife, a beautiful, sweet, extremely intelligent woman, almost failed before it started because he was still stubbornly fixated on a chick who’d been good in bed, but had also played him against other men like a damn accordion.


KingofI, I think this occurs quite often.

My relationsip with my fiancé had a rocky start due to his wanting to remain "friends" with someone he had dated for only a couple months before he met me.

And I got the standard, "oh, I don't really like her"; "she's not that nice"; "I don't really like her friends"; uh, yeah, then why are you still in contact with her.

It's funny because, both IRL and in cyberspace, people will tell you, don't say anything or else you will appear jealous and insecure.

Fortunately, this was at the beginning of our relationship because I thought, well, if this chick can a have a bf and my (future) fiancé at her beck and call, then I might as well go out an find a bf for myself and create a similar arrangement for myself.


----------



## darklilly23 (May 26, 2013)

Wow next,
I sooo wish I had done what you had from the get go.
I love that some people can't answer the question,
"if you don't like her or have odd feelings, then why are you still friends?

Not a question that gets a logical answer often.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

I looked up alpha widowing. I'm intrigued and it seems to fit in the chain of the situation that I was in. 

My fiancé's EA told him that her ex said she was only good enough for a blowjob. Yet, she would talk about creating play lists for him. And before he met me and she knew about it, she would tell him that she wasn't looking for anything serious right now. So their getting together consisted more of him tagging along with 2 female friends. The friend whom he claimed to not be all that nice or fun to be with.

A lot of the communication between them comes across as either she could take or leave him or her bossing him around. She also asked a lot of questions about me and then compared herself favourably to me. Either blatantly, like the age issue she's 21 years younger than I am. OR subtly as she tells him about some medical tests she got results for, then said she would be referred to a nephrologist. I actually had to look that up. Then in a separate text immediately after that one, said well, at least it's not cancer. the date of those text were about a month after my fiancé urged me to get tested for breast cancer and 2 weeks after he had had dinner with and admits to having shared some other indiscretions about me with her. He won't admit to that one though.

I think there is an element of needing to put the hammer down, so to speak. And I have to admit, once I openly talked about this woman to him and told him that for the kind of commitment that he was offering, I could move on. I really felt that if he saw her again, that our relationship would not have been significantly different from an FWB.

I had never met this woman but I knew from all the information that I had on her (ie their communication, what he told me about her and what I saw on the social media sites that she was on) was that he would not be able to have a true friendship with her. IF he went out with her without me, I would then have to worry about what did he say about me; what did she advise him to do about me (she once told him to drop me because according to her we weren't having sex enough) and since at that time, my fiancé was hassling me to pay for the cheaper dates, yes, I would want to know who' paying for their evening....since they're "only" friends and she had her own boyfriend. OTOH, if we had gone out together, then I would have to worry about whether she cause problems throughout the evening; whether my fiancé would blame me for it as a way to continue to justify his relationship with her.

KingofI, did you ever ask your wife to stop seeing this ex; or at least not to see him without you. It's possible that your wife might have started to see you in a different, better light.


----------



## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

I don't know about this. I was at university with a group of people, male and female and some of us had sex with each other. We are all still friends now even though most of us are married and/or with kids. I have been at parties and functions over the last 20 years where sometimes spouses have been there and sometimes not. There's never been any shenanigans or any suggestion of such. 

I realise this might be a bit different from a situation where you've been in love with someone and had a LTR and there are still feelings there. But sometimes it's really ok. I have no desire or intention to sleep with any of those people again. 

I do realise one on one situations are probably different too


----------



## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

COguy said:


> With rare exception the people that defend this are people that have a problem giving things up for the relationship.
> 
> "He's JUST a friend. You can't tell me who I can and can't talk to! We're all adults here."
> 
> ...


I agree with this.
I don't maintain contact or friendships with exes.
The issue has never arisen between us , but
I respect my wife , and how I think she would feel. Every relationship I know where a boundary against old flames didn't exist, had some sort of trouble , because of it.
Either cheating , emotionally investing in the friendship or physically, meaning sex.
I think whenever accusations of jealousy and controlling arise in relationship , the problem is much deeper.
In past relationships ,whenever a woman accused me of it, I simply let her go, because I saw it as disrespect for my concern.

That's where I completely agree with COguy.
Holding on to the past meant that you have not let go and value it more than your present.
No saying one should have no friends from the past, but people who you have shared intimate moments with can use those memories as leverage , to destabilize your present relationship.
Sometimes they are so insensitive , that they feel they are entitled to your attention , more than your significant other.

In my case, I had a very active past , my wife , minimal.
I respect her way too much to bring unnecessary baggage in our relationship.
It's my past , she shouldn't have to put up with these people and their scabrous incursions.
I value her way more than them.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Dollystanford said:


> I don't know about this. I was at university with a group of people, male and female and some of us had sex with each other. We are all still friends now even though most of us are married and/or with kids. I have been at parties and functions over the last 20 years where sometimes spouses have been there and sometimes not. There's never been any shenanigans or any suggestion of such.
> 
> I realise this might be a bit different from a situation where you've been in love with someone and had a LTR and there are still feelings there. But sometimes it's really ok. I have no desire or intention to sleep with any of those people again.
> 
> I do realise one on one situations are probably different too



Your timetable suggests that you're 40+. I think the people who "abuse" the notion of OSFs the most are 20 and 30 somethings since they've been brought up to believe that OSFs are completely interchangeable with same sex friendships.

It seems most people here who are against OSFs, ex's and otherwise, are the ones who have been burnt by those types of relationships.

I don't in principle have a problem with OSFs as long as they are arms length. But if you have followed any of the posts I have made here or on any other thread, you will notice a couple of things about my situation. 

One, the "ex" was more a 3 month fling, not an enduring relationship over the years in which they had many friends in common. Excising this woman from his life would not have meant saying "good bye" to a huge portion of his life. 

And two, her behavior made it very clear that she saw me as competition. That alone should make anyone realise that the friendship has got to end.


----------



## Wiltshireman (Jan 23, 2013)

I do keep in contact with 1 ex girlfriend, we dated for a couple of years (30 years ago) when we were at school but we called it off when I went into the military and she went to university. 

We are now not close, (geographically or emotionally) but we do send each other birthday / Christmas messages, let each other know about special events (family births / deaths / marriages). We have met up at a couple of school reunions and have enjoyed each other’s company nothing more. If she needed help and I was in a position to oblige I would in the same way as any of my other friends (regardless of gender). 

I think it would be risky to maintain a close friendship with an ex especially soon after the break up or if you would be seeing each other on a frequent basis as if nothing else you would be spending time with them that you could be spending with your now SO.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

KingofIstatements said:


> I've had great difficulty with this issue, it's one of the reasons I found TAM several years ago- to try to find some perspective and work out of my head the struggle between not wanting to be seen as jealous, vs. the gnawing discomfort of feeling I was being deeply disrespected.
> .
> .
> .
> ...


:iagree:

That sums things up really nicely. Different details, same circumstances for me. My w's first lover gained a reputation for bedding lots of women, and especially was known for bedding married women. He is a professional musician with plenty of opportunity to meet willing new conquests. Anyhow, from when we were in college all the way to recently (30+ years timespan) whenever we get together with her high school friends they start gushing about him, and W gets all starry eyed.

Alpha Widow is a good term.

edited to add: Ass Clown (said first boyfriend) contacted her on FaceBook about 2 years ago. There were 3 emails, all totally innocuous. When I discovered it I asked her to un-friend him. You would have thought I asked her to butcher the dog and grill him for dinner! "He looks terrible now". "I haven't seen him for over 30 years". "I don't want to be rude to him". "You're being stupid and jealous".

She's still pissed at me for standing firm on asking her to remove him. He still had his hooks in her after all those years. All it took was one bland contact message "You still look GREAT".


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

There is someone from my past who I could never comfortably meet as I still have feelings for her. Strong ones at that. 

If they are just friends maybe. But if the feelings are strong? No.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

No, **** no, double **** no!


----------



## darklilly23 (May 26, 2013)

This thread is Awesome! Before I knew that Sherly Glass was the late Sherly Glass I was going to ask her to write a second book 
dealing with EAs that were" long term" and or "non local" as I have come to call them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

minimalME said:


> My last relationship ended recently because the man I was seeing has been consistently creating friendships with former lovers.
> 
> I was also told they meant nothing to him.
> 
> ...


Looks like you dodged a bullet. What did he say exactly? And were there any comments?


----------



## darklilly23 (May 26, 2013)

minimalME said:


> I haven't gone back to his page to see if there were any comments. I tend to obsess about online posts, so it would've just caused me more anxiety.
> 
> I'm very clear about the type of relationship I want - transparent. And he agreed, saying he also wanted no secrets, and that I could ask him _anything_.
> 
> ...


Weird about all the unasked for info, funny how much a addicts "fix" all this online [email protected],is and how much some people are willing to risk over a "hit" that is not even real.

Good for you about your bounderys! I have learned that they belong to you and only you have the right to set them because its you that has to live with them.
There is a lot of social pressure I think to not be "insecure" but when you take a step back, that word and others like it do carry a lot of pressure,kind of like the word "cool" did in HS.
No bad ever came from people trying to comply to that word lol...

Like any words, "cool" and "insecure" are OK when not abused by people that have ulterior a agenda.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wife1981 (Jul 5, 2013)

I talk with my ex here and there. Some are on my fb. I don't have any feelings for any of them and don't plan on having any. We tried but it didn't work out for a reason, so I wouldn't try again. We are both in different relationships and both have kids. I'm in a healthy marriage. We have no trust issues. I can see why some people may say its a bad idea. If it bothers your partner, I don't recommend it. Is it worth your marriage is what I would ask yourself.


----------



## darklilly23 (May 26, 2013)

wife1981 said:


> I talk with my ex here and there. Some are on my fb. I don't have any feelings for any of them and don't plan on having any. We tried but it didn't work out for a reason, so I wouldn't try again. We are both in different relationships and both have kids. I'm in a healthy marriage. We have no trust issues. I can see why some people may say its a bad idea. If it bothers your partner, I don't recommend it. Is it worth your marriage is what I would ask yourself.



I think this is a very fair way to look at things.
Every body is entitled to their opinion and comfort level on this issue. 

I think it becomes a problem when one spouse puts the friend above the other spouse, or there are different boundaries on either side. That''s when all hell can break lose.


----------



## darklilly23 (May 26, 2013)

Do any of you think that there is social pressure to stay friends with exs? or to be comfortable with your so doing so?

Do you think that our parents generation encountered these issues?

Do you think that the divorce rate these days has any effect on things? blended family's etc, or are we just more open as a culture?


----------



## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

darklilly23 said:


> Do any of you think that there is social pressure to stay friends with exs? or to be comfortable with your so doing so?
> 
> Do you think that our parents generation encountered these issues?
> 
> Do you think that the divorce rate these days has any effect on things? blended family's etc, or are we just more open as a culture?


Yes.
Whenever a person decides to do what they think is right for their situation, whenever a person decides to do something positive that benefits them, there is always a pull in the opposite direction by society around them.

Truth is , that is natural.

If your goal is to give your marriage the best shot and minimizing contact / friendships with exes is one of the ways you see as a way to achieve this ,lots of people around you will tell you the opposite. But that is _their_ opinion.
What matters is what do_ you_ believe?

Our fore parent's generation were an entirely different generation.

Back then there were no computers , emails , instant messaging, BBM, sexting , facebook and high divorce rates.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

darklilly23 said:


> Do any of you think that there is social pressure to stay friends with exs? or to be comfortable with your so doing so? Yes, it's seen as cool to have OSFs and to stay in touch with your ex. It's seen as jealous and insecure to be concerned about the appropriateness of this type of relationship when you are dating someone who has those kinds of "friendships."
> 
> Do you think that our parents generation encountered these issues? My guess is not so much. There was a time when men and women who were not family related would not be seen together unless it was acknowledged that they were dating. A woman once described how she met her husband in the 50s. In Ireland at that time, when you wnet to a night club, the men were on one side of the room and the women on the other. They only got together to dance. Imagine, then, a man and a woman seen together for longer than a dance would be assumed to be dating. None of this "just friends" stuff.
> 
> Do you think that the divorce rate these days has any effect on things? blended family's etc, or are we just more open as a culture? I don't think we are more open as a culture. Some of us are just fooled into thinking something is cool and acceptable. I am willing to bet that these same predatory women who sucker men into thinking they are just friends are equally and fiercely protective of the relationship that they value. they won't be letting any women get too close to him. When someone is on the offense, they are already have at least one advantage. They are ahead of you.


----------



## darklilly23 (May 26, 2013)

Next,

Good point about the predatory woman protecting her man the same way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

darklilly23 said:


> Do any of you think that there is social pressure to stay friends with exs? or to be comfortable with your so doing so?


There is never a good reason to stay friends with an EX, unless children are involved. Even then, the communication should be kept to matters regarding the children only. There is a reason why they are EXs and that is what they should stay, not a part of your new life. If a person moves on to a new committed relationship, there should be no contact with the EX. What kind of social pressures are you talking about? Mutual friends? If so they should understand the importance of minimizing contact?


----------



## darklilly23 (May 26, 2013)

Well in trying to find points of view other than my own on the matter I ran into many more articles on " how to stay friends with exs" then "should I stay or end contact with ex while in a relationship" 

As to social pressure, it is only what I have observed in my own limited experience.
It seems to me that it is seen increasingly as a "right" and to be expected to become friends with ex.

Or run the risk of the dreaded " insecure" label. 
Shows like "just friends" sitcom and such, show everybody being comfortable, about everything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

These articles, Darklilly, are they written by men or women?

I think more women than men are keen to keep ex's around as friends.


----------



## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

What is the purpose of keeping an old love in your life? If they were that wonderful, wouldn't you have made it work?


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

darklilly23 said:


> Do any of you think that there is social pressure to stay friends with exs? or to be comfortable with your so doing so?
> 
> Do you think that our parents generation encountered these issues?
> 
> Do you think that the divorce rate these days has any effect on things? blended family's etc, or are we just more open as a culture?


I think people are evolving and it is becoming more acceptable to remain friends particularly with an ex that you have children with. Past generations did not divorce because of societal pressure, these days people are freer to follow the right path and often that is divorce. People are not forced to stay in marriages that have come to their natural end.

Certainly it takes mature, reasonable people to remain friends after divorce, two people that are no longer in love but are adult enough to still want the best for the person they once loved.

I don't understand how people could claim they loved someone and then after the marriage ends they then hate that person. An enlightened person is able to take responsibility for their part in the relationship ending (it is always two peoples fault) and find peace in their heart for themselves and their ex.


----------



## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

darklilly23 said:


> As to social pressure, it is only what I have observed in my own limited experience.
> It seems to me that it is seen increasingly as a "right" and to be expected to become friends with ex.
> 
> Or run the risk of the dreaded " insecure" label.
> ...


Let me ask you: What friend or friends in any social circle is so important to you that you would give in to the pressure to be friends with someone you don't want to be friends with. Who is that important to you? If the decision not to stay friends with the EX is based on your own feelings or out of respect for the feelings of your SO (if you are in a new relationship), that's your business. If they look down on you for taking that position, maybe you need to find a new social circle that mirrors your own values.

About three years ago an EX BF of my wife from HS contacted her and (very long story short) I not only told her I didn't want her doing it, I made it very difficult for her to try. My wife's sister called me insecure, I told her I don't give a f*ck what she though. You need to have that attitude.

I don't care to be "enlightened" and you can call me insecure all day. I want my married life a certain way and that way is two people only. In a marriage there is no room for EX's and if that makes me insecure or unenlightened well than I'll wear those names as a badge of honor. Sitcoms are for making me laugh, not for setting my moral code.


----------



## darklilly23 (May 26, 2013)

Personalty I feel like there is a big difference between being friendly with a ex and wishing them well when one bumps into them, than an open ended relationship with a ex that only one spouse has any say over.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

darklilly23 said:


> Personalty I feel like there is a big difference between being friendly with a ex and wishing them well when one bumps into them, than an open ended relationship with a ex that only one spouse has any say over.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can see your point, but I counter with: "That polite friendliness can morph into something ugly when there is a history." I prefer to play it safe than sorry. I have an ex that goes all the way back to senior year in HS. My first true head over heals in love sexual relationship. We split up when I was in college and I didn't see or hear from her for 30 years ... but naturally, I still thought about her and those days over the years. A few years ago she found me on Facebook and she made a friend request; I turned it down. Why? Because I was afraid I might not be able to control myself if we started talking and those old feelings started to come back. I know it was kind of stupid to turn down her request but I have a great life and a great wife, why risk it.

You have a history with OSF's and EXs, this should be clear to you.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

The Middleman said:


> Let me ask you: What friend or friends in any social circle is so important to you that you would give in to the pressure to be friends with someone you don't want to be friends with. Who is that important to you? If the decision not to stay friends with the EX is based on your own feelings or out of respect for the feelings of your SO (if you are in a new relationship), that's your business. If they look down on you for taking that position, maybe you need to find a new social circle that mirrors your own values.
> 
> About three years ago and EX BF of my wife from HS contacted her and (very long story short) *I not only told her I didn't want her doing it, I made it very difficult for her to try.* My wife's sister called me insecure, I told her I don't give a f*ck what she though. You need to have that attitude.
> 
> I don't care to be "enlightened" and you can call me insecure all day. I want my married life a certain way and that way is two people only. In a marriage there is no room for EX's and if that makes me insecure or unenlightened well than I'll wear those names as a badge of honor. Sitcoms are for making me laugh, not for setting my moral code.


I sometimes think that my exH would that I had taken care of some of those problems that depending on him to do the right thing. We have to remember that some people don't like saying no. they would rather blame their inability to do whatever on someone else.


----------



## darklilly23 (May 26, 2013)

The Middleman said:


> I can see your point, but I counter with: "That polite friendliness can morph into something ugly when there is a history." I prefer to play it safe than sorry. I have an ex that goes all the way back to senior year in HS. My first true head over heals in love sexual relationship. We split up when I was in college and I didn't see or hear from her for 30 years ... but naturally, I still thought about her and those days over the years. A few years ago she found me on Facebook and she made a friend request; I turned it down. Why? Because I was afraid I might not be able to control myself if we started talking and those old feelings started to come back. I know it was kind of stupid to turn down her request but I have a great life and a great wife, why risk it.
> 
> You have a history with OSF's and EXs, this should be clear to you.


Trust me Middleman, 

The danger is clear to me! You are one of the first people on the board that gave me a guiding light to "No you are not crazy for feeling this way land!" and for that I will for ever grateful!:smthumbup: 
I am just trying to understand the issue from a place bigger than my history so I can understand exactly why I have the boundaries that I do (removing my self from what I am going through In my divorce) and why they are right for me.
If gosh forbid that I have to deal with this issue again! 
Basically I am taking a look at my boundaries and trying to set them from a clearer vantage point.


I am sure you know my feelings on the matter


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

minimalME said:


> My last relationship ended recently because the man I was seeing has been consistently creating friendships with former lovers.
> 
> I was also told they meant nothing to him.
> 
> ...


The kind of women who send love letters to convicted murderers, huh?


----------



## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> The kind of women who send love letters to convicted murderers, huh?


Not quite that dramatic. 

More like chronological snobbery. They're the modern, evolved, enlightened women who're open and relaxed and not as uptight as those of us who don't care for sloppy boundaries. 

darklilly said it well - _everyone being comfortable about everything_. Relative morality. Or at least until it hits home.


----------



## darklilly23 (May 26, 2013)

I am also starting to see patterns to what people are saying about the subject and how they are saying it.
A real eye opener is other places on the web, not forums, but ask youhoo or utube and look up "exs as friends"
Or " husband still talks to ex" and you find anything from the "mature hip" tearing into the "insecure" 
or just a bunch of rubbish on how to be comfortable as a single person and not hate your ex.
Which is the majority of information out there and doesn't do a lick of good for the couple that is dealing with this type of thing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## darklilly23 (May 26, 2013)

minimalME said:


> Not quite that dramatic.
> 
> More like chronological snobbery. They're the modern, evolved, enlightened women who're open and relaxed and not as uptight as those of us who don't care for sloppy boundaries.
> 
> darklilly said it well - _everyone being comfortable about everything_. Relative morality. Or at least until it hits home.


Lol love it! Sloppy boundaries! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## darklilly23 (May 26, 2013)

darklilly23 said:


> Lol love it! Sloppy boundaries!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


BTW middleman,

I share your sentiment for not "friending" exs, I personally don't ever want to play with fire when it comes
to something I value enough to commit my life to. I don't think it was stupid at all, it showed you had your wife's back
even when she was not there to watch out for herself 

Like I said "friendly when you bump into some one" aka not punching them in the face.
I see FB, phone calls, emails, chirping, farm swell (whatever) as keeping a open line of communication.
And for me that is a boundary.
I think most people see FB etc as some sort of "harmless game" I think as time go's by with all this stuff we as a society are going to start taking these things 
out of the "video game category" and put it in to "the every marriage I know has been affected or ended over this [email protected] category. "
I know that the Internet is just a tool and the people using it are doing the, well,"doing".
But I think unfortunately, esp with "social media sites" people see it as harmless, like collecting stickers on a album or something, not for the direct line of contact that it is.

Darklilly23 is now stepping down from her soapbox... 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

darklilly23 said:


> I am also starting to see patterns to what people are saying about the subject and how they are saying it.
> A real eye opener is other places on the web, not forums, but ask youhoo or utube and look up "exs as friends"
> Or " husband still talks to ex" and you find anything from the "mature hip" tearing into the "insecure"
> o*r just a bunch of rubbish on how to be comfortable as a single person and not hate your ex.*
> ...


Why do you say that the suggestion of being comfortable as a single and not hating your ex is rubbish? Maybe give the idea some credit.
As for sloppy boundaries, it is entirely possible to be friends with an ex and have very firm boundaries. Again though it takes a certain type of person to achieve this, it takes a lot of self work and acceptance but I can tell you from first hand experience that living with peace is a good place to be. Life is too short for anything else.

No doubt it depends on the type of ex we are talking about. I have never had an ex that was an ******* type of guy, never been with a cheater or loser. So if the ex was a cheating scumbag I can't see a need for friendship but if a man is a good man but just not the right man then a friendship with good boundaries is fine IME.


----------



## darklilly23 (May 26, 2013)

Holland said:


> Why do you say that the suggestion of being comfortable as a single and not hating your ex is rubbish? Maybe give the idea some credit.
> As for sloppy boundaries, it is entirely possible to be friends with an ex and have very firm boundaries. Again though it takes a certain type of person to achieve this, it takes a lot of self work and acceptance but I can tell you from first hand experience that living with peace is a good place to be. Life is too short for anything else.
> 
> No doubt it depends on the type of ex we are talking about. I have never had an ex that was an ******* type of guy, never been with a cheater or loser. So if the ex was a cheating scumbag I can't see a need for friendship but if a man is a good man but just not the right man then a friendship with good boundaries is fine IME.


I was not saying that information could not be helpful if you found yourself in that situation.
What I was getting at is there is a lack of information for certain people, that are in certain situations. And that can be frustrating sometimes.
I was not referring to the validity or non validity of the information, I was referring to a lack of certain type of specific information.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

Holland said:


> Why do you say that the suggestion of being comfortable as a single and not hating your ex is rubbish?


If I were a single guy I would have no problem being in contact with an EX if we ended our relationship on good terms. I could even consider that person my friend. This changes when we marry. That friendship really needs to end because close personal relationships with EXs or OSF's don't belong in a marriage. This is especially true if your spouse is not comfortable with you being close to an EX or someone of the opposite sex. You have to have enough respect for your spouse's feelings to give this up.

As far as boundaries go, even if they are strong, why put yourself in a risky situation. Men and women are meant to have sex, boundaries in these types of friendships only go so far. This is why we don't have those friendships in our marriage


----------



## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Holland said:


> As for sloppy boundaries, it is entirely possible to be friends with an ex and have very firm boundaries. Again though it takes a certain type of person to achieve this, it takes a lot of self work and acceptance but I can tell you from first hand experience that living with peace is a good place to be. Life is too short for anything else.


With my ex-husband whom I have children, we do live in peace with firm boundaries. It's not a problem at all, but I wouldn't say that we're friends.

My original comment on this thread was about a man I was involved with who was unwilling to discuss his facebook harem. 

For me personally, that began the slippery slope of sloppy boundaries.


----------



## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

darklilly23 said:


> BTW middleman,
> 
> I share your sentiment for not "friending" exs, I personally don't ever want to play with fire when it comes
> to something I value enough to commit my life to. I don't think it was stupid at all, it showed you had your wife's back
> ...


I have to give my wife more credit than I did in my earlier post. I really think in my heart that she thought there was no harm in it, because I caught it at a very early stage when the e-mails were about: "so what have you been doing since I saw you last". But if I caught it a few weeks later, there is no telling where it would have gone. This guy was definitely fishing and he kept saying how physically fit he was and buff for his age; even more fit than when they dated. There is a whole lot more to the story and it was in my very first posting here, but I took that thread down. Anyway, it paid for me to make a *HUGE* issue of it when I did, otherwise I could have gone down the same road you are traveling now.

BTW: My thought are with you. You are a better person than he deserves.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

The Middleman said:


> If I were a single guy I would have no problem being in contact with an EX if we ended our relationship on good terms. I could even consider that person my friend. This changes when we marry. That friendship really needs to end because close personal relationships with EXs or OSF's don't belong in a marriage. This is especially true if your spouse is not comfortable with you being close to an EX or someone of the opposite sex. You have to have enough respect for your spouse's feelings to give this up.
> 
> As far as boundaries go, even if they are strong, why put yourself in a risky situation. Men and women are meant to have sex, boundaries in these types of friendships only go so far. This is why we don't have those friendships in our marriage


And that is fine for you, all I am saying that for some of us it is possible to have an ex as a friend. I my case we have 2 amazing kids together that we co parent 50/50. He is a good man but our marriage came to it's natural end, I am not in love with him and our friendship holds no danger to my relationship as I am deeply in love and connected with my partner. There is no risk, I am intelligent enough to never allow any risk to get in the middle of my relationship with Mr H.
My partner accepts and is OK that ex and I have a friendship, if he was not comfortable we would discuss the situation and modify it accordingly. I would never put ex before my partner and our relationship.

*darklilly23* there is a book called Spiritual Divorce by Debbie Ford that I read when ex and I first split. It helped me get to the place I am now and able to accept my part in our relationship ending. Of course as I said there is no need to maintain a friendship with a loser man but none of my ex's are that type. Either way, finding peace within yourself is a great place to be.


----------



## darklilly23 (May 26, 2013)

Holland said:


> And that is fine for you, all I am saying that for some of us it is possible to have an ex as a friend. I my case we have 2 amazing kids together that we co parent 50/50. He is a good man but our marriage came to it's natural end, I am not in love with him and our friendship holds no danger to my relationship as I am deeply in love and connected with my partner. There is no risk, I am intelligent enough to never allow any risk to get in the middle of my relationship with Mr H.
> My partner accepts and is OK that ex and I have a friendship, if he was not comfortable we would discuss the situation and modify it accordingly. I would never put ex before my partner and our relationship.
> 
> *darklilly23* there is a book called Spiritual Divorce by Debbie Ford that I read when ex and I first split. It helped me get to the place I am now and able to accept my part in our relationship ending. Of course as I said there is no need to maintain a friendship with a loser man but none of my ex's are that type. Either way, finding peace within yourself is a great place to be.


Holland, 

You see for me my stbxh was not as kind as you and the "I would never put a ex before my relationship" part
for me was much different. stbxh said to me "how can you ask me to hurt exs feelings over you?" Yes he really said that...
And "I had cometments and loyalty to OW" before I ever met you.
So yes if I ever heard the kind words and sentiment from my stbxh that you have for your relationship with Mr.H 
I would prob passed out from disbeliefe...

Thanks for the book recommend, believe it or not , I am quite at peace with stbxh already, did a lot of internal work on myself in the marriage and learned a lot.
I am still hurt beyond belief and still in shock and dumbfounded and prob will be for awhile.
But there is no hate or anything like that, sadness yes.
I just don't think I will be online buddy's or go to stbxh for relationship advise in the foreseeable future 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

darklilly23 said:


> stbxh said to me "how can you ask me to hurt exs feelings over you?" Yes he really said that...


My wife was very resistant to removing her first lover from FaceBook. She gave me all kinds of lines, including she didn't want to be rude to him. And I am sure there was no EA going on, only 3 emails which were very bland. She was hooked in though by the first contact, so in a way it was an EA, just at the very beginning stages.

Anyhow, my sister is a therapist and tells me in the past few years _every single_ couple she has seen with infidelity has included Facebook and other social media. The fact is many people don't recognize when their renewed friendship crosses the line into EA, and thus they are unable to hold boundaries to prevent an EA.


----------



## darklilly23 (May 26, 2013)

Thor said:


> My wife was very resistant to removing her first lover from FaceBook. She gave me all kinds of lines, including she didn't want to be rude to him. And I am sure there was no EA going on, only 3 emails which were very bland. She was hooked in though by the first contact, so in a way it was an EA, just at the very beginning stages.
> 
> Anyhow, my sister is a therapist and tells me in the past few years _every single_ couple she has seen with infidelity has included Facebook and other social media. The fact is many people don't recognize when their renewed friendship crosses the line into EA, and thus they are unable to hold boundaries to prevent an EA.


Wow Thor,

Thanks for the info, straight from the horses mouth with your sister! 
My goodness times are a changing! 
What use to be the old affair with the office secretary is now offten nonlocal and hence nonphysical!
Office EAs and good old fashion PAs (of which unfortunately EAs are often the gateway) aside of course, just seems like a odd phenomenon...
Like it said in "not just friends" the woman is becoming more physical and the male is becoming more emotional. 
"Cat and dogs living togeather, mass hysteria"...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

The Middleman said:


> *If I were a single guy I would have no problem being in contact with an EX if we ended our relationship on good terms. *I could even consider that person my friend. This changes when we marry. That friendship really needs to end because close personal relationships with EXs or OSF's don't belong in a marriage. This is especially true if your spouse is not comfortable with you being close to an EX or someone of the opposite sex. You have to have enough respect for your spouse's feelings to give this up.
> 
> As far as boundaries go, even if they are strong, why put yourself in a risky situation. Men and women are meant to have sex, boundaries in these types of friendships only go so far. This is why we don't have those friendships in our marriage


Even if the relationship did end on "good terms", you would need to be vigilant to ensure that that person is not doing anything to discourage you from dating other people OR discouraging other people from dating you.

We have at least one poster on this thread who admitted that she intentionally put doubt in the minds of her ex's against the new women that they were dating as a way to keep them from finding new relationships. I've read elsewhere that men had to come to terms with the fact that this woman they called just a friend was the sticking point, for whatever, to their finding a new girlfriend. 

The fact that you thought the relationship with your ex ended amicably suddenly becomes a minor issue going forward.


----------



## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

Thor said:


> Anyhow, my sister is a therapist and tells me in the past few years _every single_ couple she has seen with infidelity has included Facebook and other social media. The fact is many people don't recognize when their renewed friendship crosses the line into EA, and thus they are unable to hold boundaries to prevent an EA.


And this is the exact reason why I came down on my wife so hard when my SIL put her in contact with her EX from HS. My wife and SIL couldn't understand why I got bent out shape over a few catch-up e-mails. Besides the fact that I could see the guy was fishing, I could see that it wouldn't take much for my wife to get caught up in the whole thing. This guy was clearly "strutting his stuff". I told my wife that she can continue contact with the guy right after she filed for divorce and left. In the meantime, I blocked Facebook at the router, blocked his e-mail address at the ISP (it's still blocked), sent him a quick note that my wife won't be e-mailing her back because he's a F*cktard (yes I actually wrote that) and then I ripped my SIL a new ass hole. It took over a week of not speaking before we were able to reach a conclusion. It was ugly but necessary.


----------



## darklilly23 (May 26, 2013)

Nice Alpha moves Middle,

I wish I had a pair like that in my situation, it might not have saved my marriage, but I might not have been tossed around like a wet noodle emotionally for so long.
And pro would not have been made out to be the bad "insecure" guy either. If anyone ever try's that with me again, I will show them just how insecure I am by walking out the door  
this was my first relationship so I had no idea that I had any right to stand up for my boundaries.
I know better now, I feel so much stronger after my journey through all this. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

darklilly23 said:


> Nice Alpha moves Middle,
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah ... well, I didn't feel very Alpha at the time, believe me. I came off like a bull in a China Shop because this is what I felt I needed to do but I was actually scared sh1tless while doing it. I was lucky. My wife could have easily said "fvck you Middleman! You aren't going to tell me who to talk to" and she could have taken me up on my offer to divorce. I took a big risk for something that at the time was a minor event; but I really felt it was something I had to do. I could have done it better, taking my wife's feelings into account more, as many here pointed out to me; but I went on my instincts. Keep in mind, this happened 2 years before I found TAM. I didn't have the benefit of the people here who are smarter than I am on these matters to help me along.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

The Middleman said:


> Besides the fact that I could see the guy was fishing, I could see that it wouldn't take much for my wife to get caught up in the whole thing.


Yeah I could see the guy was looking for another taste. To my wife it was a nice compliment from him that he commented she still looked great.

Probably our wives recognized the fishing attempt from the ex but were willing to take the compliments without seriously believing they would get back together.



The Middleman said:


> this is what I felt I needed to do but I was actually scared sh1tless while doing it. I was lucky. My wife could have easily said "fvck you Middleman! You aren't going to tell me who to talk to" and she could have taken me up on my offer to divorce. I took a big risk for something that at the time was a minor event; but I really felt it was something I had to do.


Yup, scared sh1tless is right! To her it seemed like a minor event, but in reality it was a huge issue for me. Especially because of who he was made this a real issue in the marriage.


----------



## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

Thor said:


> Probably our wives recognized the fishing attempt from the ex but were willing to take the compliments without seriously believing they would get back together.


Yeah, I know. But how many women who initially felt this way wind up being on the receiving end of sperm injections eventually. My guess is much more than people admit.



Thor said:


> Yup, scared sh1tless is right! To her it seemed like a minor event, but in reality it was a huge issue for me. Especially because of who he was made this a real issue in the marriage.


My wife was, and still is, very secretive of her prior sex life and wouldn't tell me how intimate she was with him, so my assumption is she slept with him. Based on that, NO CONTACT. If she wants to fill me in more on what went on, then maybe I would have been more open to things, maybe. Open communication has always been an issue for us and we've been together for 30 years. I guess that is my fault because I can dominate a conversation.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Hey congrats on the 1000 posts Middleman!

Open communications have always been a problem here. But opposite, where I am an avoider of conflict and she is happy to not volunteer sensitive information. She did not hide her sexual involvement with Ass Clown, though, so I have always known way more than I wanted to about him! And I am sure there is a lot more there than she has told me.


----------



## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

I can totally see keeping a civil relationship with an ex with children involved but without kids? What is the point? It's simpler to just go along with your life and leave that behind. 

Are there so few friends in your life that you must keep them involved?


----------



## darklilly23 (May 26, 2013)

So anybody think people stayed friends with past lovers, old flames, exs etc. back in the 80's?
How about the 50's ?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

I think if they did, it took a lot more effort.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

darklilly23 said:


> So anybody think people stayed friends with past lovers, old flames, exs etc. back in the 80's?
> How about the 50's ?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My wife did with Ass Clown the musician first lover. Back then it was a lot different than now. A lot less intense with much much less ability to have contact of any kind. We called it "carrying the torch" or "never really got over him" rather than an EA back in the 80's.

Had we lived in the same area, within an hour drive time perhaps, it could have been a lot different.

Even though people didn't move away from the hometown so much in the past, I don't recall hearing about ex lovers remaining friends. In my observation it seems that the current younger generation in their 20's today have a very different social acceptance of remaining friends with ex lovers. They I think also have more casual sex partners than in past decades, so it is part of an overall change in behaviors and attitudes about sex.


----------



## darklilly23 (May 26, 2013)

Thor,

Yeah this is kind of how I see things, when I got in to my first and thus far only relationship with my stbxh, I never had any clue that people "stayed friends" with past lovers.
I had a unique school environment that there was not much if any dating so I got together with stbxh and he said "how grown up and mature it was to be able to stay friends with your exs"
So I was kind of at a disadvantage when it came to my understanding of the subject.
Because most my experience came from what stbxh told me about it, because I just did not go around asking people if it was normal.

It really seems though that it is something that is occurring as a social phenomenon.

I can't help see a connection between the more casual relationships people are having
And the Divorce rate. 

Used to be if something threatened a marriage it was seen as a huge deal, and taken serious as a heart attack,
but it seems like the nuclear family is becoming less and less relevant in society, it used to mean survival.
There must be some connection to this and the divorce rate. But what came first the chicken or the egg?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## darklilly23 (May 26, 2013)

Makes me want to go talk to two generations back.
I wonder what our grandparents would think about this subject?
I am always amazed at the wisdom they can offer sometimes. Social acceptance and technology can change
but the human heart, not very much...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> There's just way more trouble than any possible good that could be derived from such a situation!


What is the need? Really, are you short on friends.. then make new ones. Why put a partner in a place where they have to feel a level of competition, even a slight one. I understand ex husbands or wives as the history and possible need due to children being involved, but even then there are distinct boundaries that should be in place. There is absolutely no good reason. Selfishness is what we are talking about. The question should be is it ok for me to be so selfish as to still be talking to an old flame while I am with someone else. Answer is no, its a slippery slope scenario waiting to happen. You can't account for the past lovers motives and they know how to push your buttons. If you treat them like a confidant and your relationship is going through an inevitable rough patch, they will know how to take advantage of your vulnerability. How is this fair to your current partner?


----------



## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

darklilly23 said:


> Makes me want to go talk to two generations back.
> I wonder what our grandparents would think about this subject?
> I am always amazed at the wisdom they can offer sometimes. Social acceptance and technology can change
> but the human heart, not very much...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Society was structured much differently then.

Back then it was improper for a man to visit another man's home and chat with his wife if he was not at home.

Back then a man could be "_ tarred and feathered" _for trash talking a woman of impecable character or _" besmirching "_ her good name.

Back then it was an entirely , different ball game.


----------



## darklilly23 (May 26, 2013)

Yeah, my dad said that if you were sneaking around on the phone back then you would have to take the long phone cord into the bathroom and shut the door.
The rest of the family would see the phone cord trailing to the bathroom...

I think in times past that it would be looked at strangely if a married man was seen at another woman's house.
But nobody seems to bat an eye these days with OSFships. On FB, texting, phone calls etc.

With equally of the sexs, by that I am not putting down the good parts, but I think that we sometimes forget that men and woman are different for a reason and that is essentially biologically so they can mate.

I really think a lot of the Divorce rate is do to the fact that marriage is so much less about survival (farming, having kids to do the work, kids took care of you when old, woman who were divorced had a hard time getting married again) and more about people "being happy"
I think if our survival depended more on having a family, then people would take things a little more seriously. That being said I think society needs new reasons to take marriage seriously, like if marriage and life is about being happy and you have all these broken relationships al over the place because people are trying " follow their own happiness" that creates a conundrum.

After all the punishment for infidelity was much more sever(tar and feather, stoning, shame was a big part of it) Today the fall out is not nearly as bad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

darklilly23 said:


> I really think a lot of the Divorce rate is do to the fact that marriage is so much less about survival (farming, having kids to do the work, kids took care of you when old, woman who were divorced had a hard time getting married again) and more about people "being happy"
> I think if our survival depended more on having a family, then people would take things a little more seriously. That being said I think society needs new reasons to take marriage seriously, like if marriage and life is about being happy and you have all these broken relationships al over the place because people are trying " follow their own happiness" that creates a conundrum.


:iagree:


----------



## darklilly23 (May 26, 2013)

Just for the record, I knew that there were really bad OSF boundary issues within the first year of courtship but I had never been in
a relationship before so frankly I was a little dumb about the whole thing.

So I think if a couple is going to have issues with specifically exs or old flames there will probably be red flags
about said issue being a point of contention.

Anybody think the same or do you think it can blindside a relationship just as easily?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## darklilly23 (May 26, 2013)

minimalME said:


> I think we live in a time when a lot of people seem to think they deserve certainty, and there is none.
> 
> The analyzing has become obsessive, and we work so hard trying to make sure nothing's missed. We check off the various boxes - 'quality' people, sex rank, what's their 'league', no baggage, no drama, not broken.
> 
> ...


So true, nothing in life comes with out risk.
You can obsess to much and miss out on life.

For me I guess I am just realizing there was a lot I missed in hindsight.
My questions were more about being honest with yourself about what you see, than making sure people fit in to a prefect mold for safety's sake. 

Heck we would never move at all if we always waited for prefect, easy trap to fall in to though. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

darklilly23 said:


> My questions were more about being honest with yourself about what you see, than making sure people fit in to a prefect mold for safety's sake.


I read an article once that said many people know they're making a mistake when they walk down the aisle, but they do it anyway.

We seem to have a hard time trusting ourselves.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

darklilly23 said:


> Just for the record, I knew that there were really bad OSF boundary issues within the first year of courtship but I had never been in
> a relationship before so frankly I was a little dumb about the whole thing.
> 
> So I think if a couple is going to have issues with specifically exs or old flames there will probably be red flags
> ...


I don't know about blindsiding. My story is along the same lines as yours. My fiance (now wife) had issues with an ex whom I call Ass Clown. He was and is still a professional musician. There were tons of red flags, like the time she helped arrange for him to play a show at the college and _arranged for me to be his roadie_. I hauled his crap in, helped set him up, tuned his guitars, sat backstage while he played (and my wife sat in the front all googly eyed), then carried his crap back out afterwards.

That was over 30 years ago now.

People told me to be mature about her having a history, and stop being all jealous.  Oh yes I blame myself for being so stupid at the time and not seeing the sea of red flags.

She's still angry that I strongly requested she unfriend him from FB when he showed up 2 years ago. By then I was willing to trust my gut about him and about her still having unfinished business with him. I'm not going to make it easy for them to finish the business.


----------



## darklilly23 (May 26, 2013)

Thor said:


> I don't know about blindsiding. My story is along the same lines as yours. My fiance (now wife) had issues with an ex whom I call Ass Clown. He was and is still a professional musician. There were tons of red flags, like the time she helped arrange for him to play a show at the college and _arranged for me to be his roadie_. I hauled his crap in, helped set him up, tuned his guitars, sat backstage while he played (and my wife sat in the front all googly eyed), then carried his crap back out afterwards.
> 
> That was over 30 years ago now.
> 
> ...


How are things going for Thor? Do you have a link to your thread?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

> There were tons of red flags, like the time she helped arrange for him to play a show at the college and arranged for me to be his roadie.


How did that happen? Were you paid? Did you know that that was your wife's ex?


----------



## Ryan_sa (May 8, 2012)

I dont know if my situation is unusual, I am friends with nearly all my longer term Ex's, except the skank who cheated when ever she could!

However there is nothing more than friendship, and we've all moved on from our dating days. We dont have any regrets about not being together. My wife is also friends with her ex's, and it doesn't bother me at all. 
Were a couple now,and have been for years. If one of us cheated I doubt it would be with an ex, and were totally open about who we've been with so there are no nasty surprises. 

I see a lot of people say a persons sexual history is none of the current partners business, but we are both the type who wanted to know, so we do.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

darklilly23 said:


> How are things going for Thor? Do you have a link to your thread?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Kinda crummy at the moment.

Here's my original thread but it is a long read related to one specific incident which brought me here. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/private-members-section/37385-possible-smoking-gun-now-what.html

The short version is wife hid from me her true history from the beginning (over 30 yrs ago now). She was sexually abused as a grade schooler, which led to some of the typical marital issues with us. She severely white washed her history with previous boyfriends when we had those discussions prior to the wedding. I was The Nicest Guy You'd Ever Meet, and thus I did not deal with things effectively. We had a statistically sexless marriage most of the time, usually about 3 or 4 times per year all in one or two months, then she'd become averse to sex (with me) for another 12 to 18 months.

Anyhow, I blamed myself for our problems because she had an active sex life with her previous boyfriends in high school and college, plus we had a pretty active and unrestrained sex life before getting engaged. Thus I must have been the problem though I could never figure out what I was doing wrong. In reality it was the psych damage from the abuse. Even when she knew it was a problem in our marriage she kept it secret and let me blame myself. I was the Nice Guy so of course I did not deal with it effectively.

About 7 yrs ago she checked out, stopped wearing her rings, and says she considered the marriage dead, just waiting for the youngest to graduate high school. She never told me this at the time though.

Some hints of an affair, nothing really solid, just some red flags. I confronted about fixing the marriage and she seemed to return. That was 2 yrs ago. She told me then of her abuse. She denied any affairs.

Then I found her razor in my car. 99.99% sure it was hers, and there is no logical innocent explanation. She denies it.

Overall things moved forward and I was starting to feel I could live with not knowing some things. She seemed firmly in the marriage, which I considered a whole new marriage since 2 yrs ago. Then 6 weeks ago she perpetrated a major deception which reset me back to square 1, wondering what was ever real, what don't I know, etc. Sort of a DD2 though not ea/pa related.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

NextTimeAround said:


> How did that happen? Were you paid? Did you know that that was your wife's ex?


How did it happen? I was a f'n idiot and went along with it! No, no pay.

Yes I knew who he was in terms of being her first bf/lover. Had never met him. My wife's best friend had also dated him after my wife did. W and her friend set up the show at the college and then W (fiance at the time) told me about it. I really had no say in whether or not she went.

This was the age of modern feminism, post sexual revolution (1980). Men were being brain washed into suppressing their masculinity. The last thing I wanted was to appear overly jealous or overly sensitive, so I just sucked it up. She was my first sex partner (freshman year in college). All my previous girlfriends had been virgins. So this was all new territory for me, dealing with my girlfriend's ex-lovers.

I was a hobby level guitarist, so she somehow convinced me it would be fun to be involved in the show rather than sit in the audience.

Looking back I think she was hoping I would like Ass Clown, or perhaps be lulled into false security about him. I think she was looking to be a cake eater. And it was a move to Beta me compared to him. I felt it but did not understand it at the time.

Makes me want to reach back through time and ***** slap myself!!!

This guy was known at the time to be a womanizer and to bed married women. When we'd get together with her old high school friends they would invariably talk about him, and the girls would get all giggly animated as they discussed his womanizing. Decades later the same scenes would repeat when we'd bump into old friends of hers, giggling about him and his exploits.

I recently found out he was 4 yrs older than her. What the f were her parents thinking? 15 yr old daughter dating a 19 yr old? Holy he11 Batman!


----------



## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Whether or not people "can" remain on friendly terms with OSFs from their past seems to divide folks into two camps: those who vehemently oppose it, and those who don't. I'm in the latter camp. Unless one person's behavior suggests that something is "off" in the friendship, I cannot imagine having any problem with it. I know too many people who have decent relationships with exes, and don't know anyone who left a marriage for a former lover. I myself have NO romantic feelings for the people I left behind or who left me behind--all that is left is a knowledge of whether or not they are good, kind people, and, if they are, of course I want to remain friends. The reality is that as time passes, most friendships--including these--fade, and only the really special, long-term friendships survive. Sure, I would meet an old flame for coffee if I went back to the city he still lives in, but it would only be a "catching up" visit, just enough to justify the cost of the stamp on the Xmas card. 

People who don't understand opposite-sex friendships are just different than those of us who do. Each has to do what is right for us--and I *strongly* encourage people to date and marry only those in the same camp with them. No matter what else is "right" in the relationship, this is a huge divide and will eventually create a lot of conflict or resentment.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

sisters359 said:


> I know too many people who have decent relationships with exes, and don't know anyone who left a marriage for a former lover.


Professional marriage therapists will tell you it is extremely common for the affair partner to be an ex. Frequently it will be an ex who has not been in contact for years.




sisters359 said:


> People who don't understand opposite-sex friendships are just different than those of us who do. Each has to do what is right for us--and I *strongly* encourage people to date and marry only those in the same camp with them. No matter what else is "right" in the relationship, this is a huge divide and will eventually create a lot of conflict or resentment.


I agree that spouses need to be compatible on these basic philosophical issues.

Though I am in the opposite camp as you, I too don't think it would be dangerous for me to meet an ex for coffee. This is different than retaining an ongoing relationship.

Most men will tell you that a man who remains friends with a woman he finds sexually attractive is always hoping to get some sex with her. I think many women are naively unaware of this.


----------



## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

I think it's generally a bad idea for exes to be OSFs. There are exceptions, of course, but 98% of the time, it damages a marriage needlessly. One should care more about one's partner and a shared life between them than about clinging to some failed romance in the guise of "friendship".


----------



## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

wife1981 said:


> I talk with my ex here and there. Some are on my fb. I don't have any feelings for any of them and don't plan on having any. We tried but it didn't work out for a reason, so I wouldn't try again. We are both in different relationships and both have kids. I'm in a healthy marriage. We have no trust issues. I can see why some people may say its a bad idea. If it bothers your partner, I don't recommend it. Is it worth your marriage is what I would ask yourself.


why the need to have them on your FB and talk to EX. as you said it did not work out for a reason. IMO almost all that have these old flames eventually turn back into lovers are people that spoke like you are now about them being on their FB etc... It is a slippery slope and there is no reason to do it but for the selfishness of "I want to". It may not now but when you have a rough time in your marriage some day I guarantee if your SO sees that you are facebooking an EX during that time they will start to wonder why. Since you love them and would not want them to ever think that and you have no intention of ever doing that, there is nothing to gain from trying to act like you need them in your life other than selfishness. IMO


----------



## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

moxy said:


> I think it's generally a bad idea for exes to be OSFs. There are exceptions, of course, but 98% of the time, it damages a marriage needlessly. One should care more about one's partner and a shared life between them than about clinging to some failed romance in the guise of "friendship".


there is someone who is not selfish speaking. Nice to hear. I went on facebook and before I knew it I had 20 old girlfriends friend requesting me and like many thought nothing of it. Then one day I am hearing my wife call me to dinner and I am finishing a hello response to my 7th grade girlfriend. I thought to my self what the hell am I doing. I of course had no feelings for her and it was just a hey hello haven't spoken in 30 years how are you etc... but who cares. Its been 30 years I live states away and have my own family and there is no reason for me to be talking to a married woman socially like this. I shut down my account as it served no real purpose. I think FB is for those that need attention or need to portray themselves as something they are not. You can use email for friends and family so save the arguments.


----------



## darklilly23 (May 26, 2013)

nogutsnoglory said:


> there is someone who is not selfish speaking. Nice to hear. I went on facebook and before I knew it I had 20 old girlfriends friend requesting me and like many thought nothing of it. Then one day I am hearing my wife call me to dinner and I am finishing a hello response to my 7th grade girlfriend. I thought to my self what the hell am I doing. I of course had no feelings for her and it was just a hey hello haven't spoken in 30 years how are you etc... but who cares. Its been 30 years I live states away and have my own family and there is no reason for me to be talking to a married woman socially like this. I shut down my account as it served no real purpose. I think FB is for those that need attention or need to portray themselves as something they are not. You can use email for friends and family so save the arguments.


This reminds me of something I heard about protecting your relationship, wall and windows you want to put up boundaries to people outside the marriage at the same time not open windows (I am having a hard time in my marriage, can you help me out with it?).
Now that I really think about it FB is kind of a really big window...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

darklilly23 said:


> This reminds me of something I heard about protecting your relationship, wall and windows you want to put up boundaries to people outside the marriage at the same time not open windows (I am having a hard time in my marriage, can you help me out with it?).
> Now that I really think about it FB is kind of a really big window...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is for those with middle child syndrome, those bored with their "real life", those that are not happy with who they are and portray themselves as happy and successful, or for predators that see all of the above as easy targets. Based on the infidelity, kidnappings etc.. attributed to facebook , you would have a hard time convincing me otherwise. I speak to the people I love via phone and email just fine and no one other than them is deserving of the knowledge of the conversation or the pictures I choose to send them.


----------



## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Thor said:


> Professional marriage therapists will tell you it is extremely common for the affair partner to be an ex. Frequently it will be an ex who has not been in contact for years.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This isn't very relevant, because the point is that these are exceptions--millions of people have opposite-sex friends and former exes towards whom they do NOT have sexual attraction, and that's my point. I understand completely the risk involved if someone is hanging on to--or resuming--a relationship with someone toward whom they still feel sexual attraction. But to assume that attraction is there? That's where I have a problem. If my partner tells me he has no sexual attraction to someone, I believe him, and I expect to be believed when I tell my partner I feel no attraction to so-and-so, who might be a good friend or colleague or old flame. To me, the presumption of guilt is just wrong. 

I also understand there are both men and women who don't find value in having people of the opposite sex around them *unless* there is attraction, so they do not have the experience of OSFs. I've heard men, in particular, say that they don't want women friends--they have their male friends and don't see why they would want a woman as a friend only. So they only associate, through life, with women in whom they have a sexual interest. Projecting their attitudes on others means they don't trust women who have male friends, and they certainly don't trust the male friends in question. I've heard only a very few women say the same thing, but it works both ways. 

I've just never been able to get my head around the attitude that 50% of the population is basically only good for sex. That seems to lead to too narrow a community for me. I want the insight, opinions, humor, and all the rest that comes from friends from many different walks of life, and that includes men.


----------



## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

sisters359 said:


> This isn't very relevant, because the point is that these are exceptions--millions of people have opposite-sex friends and former exes towards whom they do NOT have sexual attraction, and that's my point. I understand completely the risk involved if someone is hanging on to--or resuming--a relationship with someone toward whom they still feel sexual attraction. But to assume that attraction is there? That's where I have a problem. If my partner tells me he has no sexual attraction to someone, I believe him, and I expect to be believed when I tell my partner I feel no attraction to so-and-so, who might be a good friend or colleague or old flame. To me, the presumption of guilt is just wrong.
> 
> I also understand there are both men and women who don't find value in having people of the opposite sex around them *unless* there is attraction, so they do not have the experience of OSFs. I've heard men, in particular, say that they don't want women friends--they have their male friends and don't see why they would want a woman as a friend only. So they only associate, through life, with women in whom they have a sexual interest. Projecting their attitudes on others means they don't trust women who have male friends, and they certainly don't trust the male friends in question. I've heard only a very few women say the same thing, but it works both ways.
> 
> I've just never been able to get my head around the attitude that 50% of the population is basically only good for sex. That seems to lead to too narrow a community for me. I want the insight, opinions, humor, and all the rest that comes from friends from many different walks of life, and that includes men.


and we men understand you feel that way. So we befriend you and think of what you are like naked. Men have sex on the brain and befriending an old flame when you no longer hold an attraction WHEN YOU DID PREVIOUSLY is fine but you are also assuming the same from them and their intentions and that is a mistake and is unnecessary. With so many people to choose from to be friends with what is the point of an old flame being one of them with the potential feelings involved? It certainly is unfair to the new partner to have to be made to feel they should just be ok with it. Far too many examples of people thinking like you that end up cheating eventually and most all of them said they would never do it, so I think it best for people to respect the new partner enough to move on from the old completely . Some feel differently but I think it is selfish.
Friends with other couples... sure... friends with your SO's friends...sure spending alone time with the opposite sex...slippery slope...period.


----------



## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Ryan_sa said:


> I dont know if my situation is unusual, I am friends with nearly all my longer term Ex's, except the skank who cheated when ever she could!
> 
> However there is nothing more than friendship, and we've all moved on from our dating days. We dont have any regrets about not being together. My wife is also friends with her ex's, and it doesn't bother me at all.
> Were a couple now,and have been for years. If one of us cheated I doubt it would be with an ex, and were totally open about who we've been with so there are no nasty surprises.
> ...


Ryan,
I think your case may be different / unique because there are no secrets between you and your wife. There is 100% honesty and openness , even with the issue of sexual histories.
In your situation, the risk might be significantly lower because of the level of of radical honesty.
I'm assuming that if your wife told you that she was not comfortable with the way one of your exe's were around you, that you would defer to her feeling/ judgement and take appropriate actions.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

sisters359 said:


> *This isn't very relevant, because the point is that these are exceptions--millions of people have opposite-sex friends and former exes towards whom they do NOT have sexual attraction, and that's my point. *I understand completely the risk involved if someone is hanging on to--or resuming--a relationship with someone toward whom they still feel sexual attraction. But to assume that attraction is there? That's where I have a problem. If my partner tells me he has no sexual attraction to someone, I believe him, and I expect to be believed when I tell my partner I feel no attraction to so-and-so, who might be a good friend or colleague or old flame. To me, the presumption of guilt is just wrong.
> 
> I also understand there are both men and women who don't find value in having people of the opposite sex around them *unless* there is attraction, so they do not have the experience of OSFs. I've heard men, in particular, say that they don't want women friends--they have their male friends and don't see why they would want a woman as a friend only. So they only associate, through life, with women in whom they have a sexual interest. Projecting their attitudes on others means they don't trust women who have male friends, and they certainly don't trust the male friends in question. I've heard only a very few women say the same thing, but it works both ways.
> 
> I've just never been able to get my head around the attitude that 50% of the population is basically only good for sex. That seems to lead to too narrow a community for me. I want the insight, opinions, humor, and all the rest that comes from friends from many different walks of life, and that includes men.


Relationships that can be toxic to a marriage don't have to include sex or even lingering sexual desire. Friendships with my partner in which my partner's friend treats me like an accessory; behaves as if he/ she knows him better than I do; and wants to give "friendly" advice about our relationship have to go as well.

I've learned that just because I play fair does not mean that everyone else will. People want what they want; trying to be "open and honest" and negotiating "to gain agreement" is a waste of time. And quite frankly since I am the one making the biggest sacrifice here being a spouse and not "just a friend", I shouldn't have to negotiate in the first place.


----------



## Ryan_sa (May 8, 2012)

If my wife was uncomfortable with me speaking to anyone, ex or not, I would immediately drop that person without a second thought, and I would expect the same from her.

My wife is my ideal woman, none of the others can hold a candle to her. However I hope I'm aware enough that if I ever did begin to see one of them as attractive again I would wake up quickly enough to stop those thoughts, and figure out what's going on in my marriage so I can stop it.

Im an incredibly suspicious person, I was with my first love for years, and she screwed me over in a big way, then was horrified when I dumped her. long ago I got to the stage where I feel absolutely nothing for her, except maybe pity and a little contempt. We arent friends because I see no value in the friendship, and my wife doesn't like her because of what she did to me.

In some ways i think a person can only be friends with an Ex after all romantic or sexual feelings have died, and you still find they add value to your current relationship. 

One of my Ex's, who was pretty much a FWB has helped me with my relationship difficulties, and I've helped her. Thats the kind of person you need in your life. However again, If my wife got nervous about us, The ex would be gone in a flash.


----------



## Ryan_sa (May 8, 2012)

"I've learned that just because I play fair does not mean that everyone else will. People want what they want; trying to be "open and honest" and negotiating "to gain agreement" is a waste of time. And quite frankly since I am the one making the biggest sacrifice here being a spouse and not "just a friend", I shouldn't have to negotiate in the first place.[/QUOTE]

There is no "gaining agreement" or negotiation this part of our relationship, If she didn't want me to be friends with someone, I would want to know why, and that would be the end of the friendship. 

If anybody made me feel like this "my partner's friend treats me like an accessory; behaves as if he/ she knows him better than I do; and wants to give "friendly" advice about our relationship"
That would be the end of the friendship.

No one should interfere in another's relationship with out being asked to, and once the problem is sorted out, the advice stops.

I am incredibly lucky to have my wife, so I dont feel marriage is a sacrifice at all. 
Yes I have had to sacrifice things that I wanted, and so has she, but that's any relationship.


----------



## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

In the early stages of our relationship, my SO and I broke up because of an OSF who happened to be an ex. Even though she was then engaged to somebody else, she continued to keep my SO in the loop and kept dropping snippets of information to me about things they'd done together whilst dating.

I didn't tell him to put an end to the friendship. I simply told him that it was beneath my dignity to be in competition with other women and removed myself from the situation. It wasn't long before he realized that a relationship was more important than a friendship with a manipulative, ego hungry ex.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Cosmos said:


> In the early stages of our relationship, my SO and I broke up because of an OSF who happened to be an ex. Even though she was then engaged to somebody else, she continued to keep my SO in the loop and kept dropping snippets of information to me about things they'd done together whilst dating.
> 
> I didn't tell him to put an end to the friendship. I simply told him that it was beneath my dignity to be in competition with other women and removed myself from the situation. It wasn't long before he realized that a relationship was more important than a friendship with a manipulative, ego hungry ex.


Cosmos, are you still with this partner? and if yes, have you had other inappropriate friendship incidents again?


----------



## darklilly23 (May 26, 2013)

It's interesting that it seems that even if people decide to have any kind of contact with OSFs or exs.
(You guys know what camp I am in though) that what I keep hearing people say, for the most part is that if there spouse had a problem with it or felt uncomfortable then it would end, and a restatement of it not being worth loosing their marriage over.

Which in my mind shows caring and concern for their partner and where their priorities are.

In retrospect I should have seen the red flags with my stbxh with statements like,

"You want me to hurt her instead of you"

And this classic...

" I have loyalty and commitments to her that go back before you"

Red flags much?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> Cosmos, are you still with this partner? and if yes, have you had other inappropriate friendship incidents again?


Yes, I'm still with him, NTA, but there was a little more to deal with when we got back together...

The female friend ended up disinviting me to her wedding, but still wanted her "dearest friend" whom she "loves so much" (my SO) to attend and photograph her big day. She told him that I was disinvited because I would be "jealous" if he danced with her! He told her that as I was no longer invited to the wedding, he didn't feel that it was appropriate for him to attend on his own. She asked why, and he replied: "Because I'm in love with Cosmos." Neither of us ever heard from her again

I think my SO's inappropriate behaviour was borne mainly of a degree of cluelessness (for want of a better word). He is a typical middle-aged bachelor, and was used to having a lot of opposite sex friends, but he soon learned that this wouldn't fly with me and it is no longer a problem.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

sisters359 said:


> This isn't very relevant, because the point is that these are exceptions--millions of people have opposite-sex friends and former exes towards whom they do NOT have sexual attraction, and that's my point. I understand completely the risk involved if someone is hanging on to--or resuming--a relationship with someone toward whom they still feel sexual attraction. *But to assume that attraction is there? That's where I have a problem. If my partner tells me he has no sexual attraction to someone, I believe him, and I expect to be believed when I tell my partner I feel no attraction to so-and-so, who might be a good friend or colleague or old flame. To me, the presumption of guilt is just wrong. *
> 
> I also understand there are both men and women who don't find value in having people of the opposite sex around them *unless* there is attraction, so they do not have the experience of OSFs. I've heard men, in particular, say that they don't want women friends--they have their male friends and don't see why they would want a woman as a friend only. So they only associate, through life, with women in whom they have a sexual interest. Projecting their attitudes on others means they don't trust women who have male friends, and they certainly don't trust the male friends in question. I've heard only a very few women say the same thing, but it works both ways.
> 
> I've just never been able to get my head around the attitude that 50% of the population is basically only good for sex. That seems to lead to too narrow a community for me. I want the insight, opinions, humor, and all the rest that comes from friends from many different walks of life, and that includes men.


Telling your partner that you don't plan to have sex with your OSF, hot or not, is the equivalent of saying "trust me." 

You figure out that your partner is having an inappropriate relationship, or worse, with someone through their behavior and the choices that they make. Whether your partner will agree that their behavior is inappropriate is the wildcard. 

Some posters here say that the honor system works. If their spouse expresses a concern, they will drop that friend. But many of us have converged here on TAM because our partners did not agree with us.


----------



## darklilly23 (May 26, 2013)

Cosmos said:


> Yes, I'm still with him, NTA, but there was a little more to deal with when we got back together...
> 
> The female friend ended up disinviting me to her wedding, but still wanted her "dearest friend" whom she "loves so much" (my SO) to attend and photograph her big day. She told him that I was disinvited because I would be "jealous" if he danced with her! He told her that as I was no longer invited to the wedding, he didn't feel that it was appropriate for him to attend on his own. She asked why, and he replied: "Because I'm in love with Cosmos." Neither of us ever heard from her again
> 
> I think my SO's inappropriate behaviour was borne mainly of a degree of cluelessness (for want of a better word). He is a typical middle-aged bachelor, and was used to having a lot of opposite sex friends, but he soon learned that this wouldn't fly with me and it is no longer a problem.



Oh my, I can't believe that you were "disinvited" to the wedding...

The OW in my case was much smarter than that, she did play off my frustration and made me to look like the bad guy.

So I was disinvited to stbxhs HS reunion (by my stbxh) because it might "upset me". And it all came crashing down...

Good for your SO for telling her that he would not go without you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

It's not for me. I would feel disrespectful toward my wife if I had a close friend who was an EX. That doesn't mean I wouldn't be friendly or act nicely. I just wouldn't allow it to be a close friendship. I would also feel disrespected in the reverse scenario.


----------



## darklilly23 (May 26, 2013)

I am thinking about making a social group or two.

One I thought I would call "Old flame and exes (The fallout shelter)."
Which sucks because there is so much history there.

The other I thought I would make for "Nonlocal and long term EA's"
Which are a special kind of mind eff, losing your SO to something that they can't even touch.

Any thoughts or suggestions?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

I had OSFs before I met my SO, and they're still friends. However, I never dated any of them and my SO got to meet and become friends with them, too. Had he objected to the friendships, or expressed any discomfort, I would have had to let them go, but when they came to stay he got on as well with them as I did so they're now mutual friends.


----------



## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

Cosmos said:


> I had OSFs before I met my SO, and they're still friends. However, I never dated any of them and my SO got to meet and become friends with them, too. Had he objected to the friendships, or expressed any discomfort, I would have had to let them go, but when they came to stay he got on as well with them as I did so they're now mutual friends.


Friends of the marriage works. Other than that no.


----------



## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

Here's how I can differentiate:

If an ex of H wanted to be my friend, hang out with me, friend me on FB - keep me in the f'ing loop, yeah, that's cool for a bit. I've yet to see that happen for us.

She friends HIM only, messages him only, never hangs out with me or invite me along - no f'ing way. Not gonna happen.


----------



## inquizitivemind (Jul 16, 2013)

This is a tough question, but I am going to say for the most part no way. Since I don't have any children with my ex, I never speak to him. On the few occasions that I have, my spouse was present for the conversation. I just think its weird to be friends with someone you used to sleep with and care about.


----------



## Soveryalone (Jul 19, 2013)

"The other I thought I would make for "Nonlocal and long term EA's"
Which are a special kind of mind eff, losing your SO to something that they can't even touch."


you have no idea how much of a mind eff it is. She and him chatting away on Facebook, they never met , honestly don't think they even exchanged photos at first haha so yea 12 years down the tubes for this random dude, oh well , but ye I did lose her to someone she hadn't ever met in person, go me !!

But in reply to your initial posting , I get what you are saying, whether or not its fair for a spouse to put their foot down so to speak , when it comes to a past lover being in their life. And I don't care who it is , the most laid back , open minded , trusting person on the planet is going to have some reservations about their husband or wife being friends with an Ex. Someone else said so well , when you really love someone you never stop , and it would be too easy for things to quickly progress with a former love, because of that connection , that comfort. So all things being equal , Exes are Exes for a reason and I don't care how " cool" or progressive someone claims to be, being married and friends with an EX seems extremely far fetched , but that's just IMO just seems to cause too much drama because there will always be that little voice in the back of someones mind, what if


----------



## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

Those non-local cyber affairs are just plain fantasy. It's easy to get sucked into a daydream. Total fog. Mental masturbation. Has nothing at all to do with the betrayed partner, everything to do with the wayward choosing to fantasize instead of communicate.


----------



## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

TCSRedhead said:


> Here's how I can differentiate:
> 
> If an ex of H wanted to be my friend, hang out with me, friend me on FB - keep me in the f'ing loop, yeah, that's cool for a bit. I've yet to see that happen for us.
> 
> She friends HIM only, messages him only, never hangs out with me or invite me along - no f'ing way. Not gonna happen.


Sometimes these exes will try to be your friend to try throw you off the scent of their intentions. Leaves a greasy feeling in the interaction, IMO, because you can often see through it. 

I don't think it's impossible to be platonic friends with an ex, but a person has to have some serious integrity and skill with boundaries to navigate that dynamic; even then, it invites needless problems into the marriage.


----------



## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

moxy said:


> I don't think it's impossible to be platonic friends with an ex, but a person has to have some serious integrity and skill with boundaries to navigate that dynamic; even then, it invites needless problems into the marriage.


:iagree:

What fascinates me is how easily people dismiss this in real life,and even right here on TAM.

I have know married couples who were childhood sweethearts and the husband or wife ends up having an affair and sex with someone from within their social circle, who was also a childhood friend.

There's a saying.
_" When a man is hungry , he has no friends, especially if his friend is hungry [ for the same thing ] too."
_


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

moxy said:


> Sometimes these exes will try to be your friend to try throw you off the scent of their intentions. Leaves a greasy feeling in the interaction, IMO, because you can often see through it.
> 
> *I don't think it's impossible to be platonic friends with an ex, but a person has to have some serious integrity and skill with boundaries to navigate that dynamic; even then, it invites needless problems into the marriage.*


But shouldn't people have integrity as a standard trait? If they don't they are no friend of mine regardless. My ex and I are both top heavy with integrity, respect and all the good things, we have no trouble maintaining a post divorce friendship.

Any person can be an enemy of marriage, OSF or those of the same gender, anyone that tries to undermine your relationship is an enemy regardless of gender. 

My partner and I are very open with the information we share in regard to seeing our ex's. I tell him every time ex and I have coffee and the general drift of what we chatted about which is always about our children and our shared investments. There is zero danger to my partner or my relationship simply because I maintain a friendship with the ex.

Of course it is case dependent, in our case it works and is the best thing for our children.


----------



## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

Holland said:


> But shouldn't people have integrity as a standard trait? If they don't they are no friend of mine regardless. My ex and I are both top heavy with integrity, respect and all the good things, we have no trouble maintaining a post divorce friendship.
> 
> Any person can be an enemy of marriage, OSF or those of the same gender, anyone that tries to undermine your relationship is an enemy regardless of gender.
> 
> ...


I think that people should have integrity, but most of them don't -- especially when it comes to giving up things that feel like privileges, which people sometimes consider OSF ego boosts to be. If people can be trusted, if they would guard boundaries and even end a friendship when it becomes inappropriate, then they are probably not going to allows OSF friendships to be a problem. Most people have a hard time distinguishing between friends of the marriage and other friends, at least in practice. You're lucky that it works in your case. I'm guessing you folks are good with boundaries, communication, and responsibility. OSF friends that are not exes or secret flames, that are friends of the marriage, sometimes can work. I still think one should tread with caution, most of the time just to honor and respect the people we love.


----------



## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

It's not the integrity of my husband that I question. It's the integrity of the ex and her motivation that I would question. It's too volatile IMO.


----------

