# Married to a feminist



## ontheball (Nov 18, 2011)

Anybody else in this boat? 

For me the part I'm working on is striking a balance between been in charge and manning up and having her have a perceive notion of maintaining equality. It doesn't help that my wife has a very dominate personality. However, when I do strike the right chord her reaction is second to none. 

A little background: 

About 5 years ago my wife and I were on brink of calling it quits. My wife became increasingly distant (sex went from 2 to 3 times week to once of month if that), she started working on her appearance, and became secretive. All huge red flags of cheating. I acted in desperation and being in IT it was very easy for me to check her phone, txt, browser, chat and email history. I found out she had been talking to an ex. They hadn't physically done anything yet but I had work travel scheduled soon and they were planning to meet up during the time I was away. 

I called her out on it. Immediately left (went to a friends house with the idea that the marriage was over). She eventually came to me profusely apologized and admitted that yes she was planning to have an affair with the ex. That led into one of those all night conversations where we talked about everything in brutal honestly at the end we came out of it that the relationship was worth salvaging. However, we needed help and went to counseling. 

Counseling was good for us and our marriage vastly improved as we managed to work out several issues. However, I kept feeling like something was missing. In my opinion I was doing everything right. We had a very "equal" relationship but the spark was really there and her being a feminist that is what she wants right? 

Then came the aha moment. 

We were camping at a music festival with a couple dozen friends. Weather was awful that week as it rain most of the time. The second day we were there my wife and I along with all our friends were riding out a thunderstorm rolling through under this huge 40 x 50 tarp shelter we erected. That's when this intense series of gust of wind came threw and knocked half the shelter down. I immediately started barking orders telling everyone how to get the shelter back up. My wife was almost like my first officer as delegated out to her to be in charge of taking care of the hurt. We eventually got the shelter back up and only suffered a few injuries but the party kept going. Everyone was super nice to me and from that point forward. All our friends deferred to me for the rest of the festival before making any group decisions. 

My wife reaction was something else. That night we had amazing sex (like when we first met type sex) despite us being in a tent with our friends only a few feet away. Even though our marriage was much better at that point I hadn't seen a reaction like that in years. 

I realize something that day what she said she wanted from me was in direct conflict from she found attractive in me. In order to satisfy her need for equality I was emasculating myself.

It's been 6 months since that day. I still struggle to maintain that balance of been modern man and taking charge to rev her up. I find humor sometimes the best tool other times I listen to what she has to say but I make decision anyway. Sometimes it works other times she's gets upset about it but usually gets along with it anyway. 

Any tips or stories from you guys out there in the same boat would be greatly appreciated..


----------



## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

I have no idea how to deal with this. It is confounding. I know exactly what you mean.


----------



## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

We handle this issue by having different areas in which one or the other is dominant. I think of it as going with our strengths. I am the planner, scheduler, detail person. My husband is the big picture guy, handles the finances, lightens me up when I get too serious.

If you frame the discussion between feminist and beta guy, you both lose. Think of it as each contributing their strengths to the marriage, and it is win-win.


----------



## ontheball (Nov 18, 2011)

lovesherman said:


> We handle this issue by having different areas in which one or the other is dominant. I think of it as going with our strengths. I am the planner, scheduler, detail person. My husband is the big picture guy, handles the finances, lightens me up when I get too serious.
> 
> If you frame the discussion between feminist and beta guy, you both lose. Think of it as each contributing their strengths to the marriage, and it is win-win.


For us we are both Alpha personalities no question about it. I question if she actually wants to be equal let alone Alpha in our relationship. She says she does but she doesn't actually react to it positively. 

I've come to the conclusion that she wants her opinion and input valued but at the end of the day when it comes to the house and our relationship she was me to take charge. 

She tells me one thing but reacts positively to the complete opposite. It think she is content in being Alpha at work, with her friends, and everything else except our relationship.

Does that make sense?


----------



## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

Yes, it does. However, I don't understand what you mean by her wanting you to take charge of your relationship. Can you give examples of this? I think things work best when both people respect each other, and important decisions are made jointly.


----------



## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

ontheball said:


> For us we are both Alpha personalities no question about it. I question if she actually wants to be equal let alone Alpha in our relationship. She says she does but she doesn't actually react to it positively.
> 
> I've come to the conclusion that she wants her opinion and input valued but at the end of the day when it comes to the house and our relationship she was me to take charge.
> 
> ...


You could be a hero to millions.
30 years of western society changes cannot override millions of years of evolution. You should sitck with this line of thought.


----------



## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

lovesherman said:


> We handle this issue by having different areas in which one or the other is dominant. I think of it as going with our strengths. I am the planner, scheduler, detail person. My husband is the big picture guy, handles the finances, lightens me up when I get too serious.
> 
> If you frame the discussion between feminist and beta guy, you both lose. Think of it as each contributing their strengths to the marriage, and it is win-win.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

This is just like our marriage. My husband is a silent math genius type and I am a social butterfly. Guess who makes more money and handles our finances? :rofl: 

I love the way equality has never been an issue, despite the income/education disparity. My husband values my emotional contribution the way most women are thrilled to wear a large engagment ring; he says I taught him to be aware of his feelings.


----------



## ontheball (Nov 18, 2011)

lovesherman said:


> Yes, it does. However, I don't understand what you mean by her wanting you to take charge of your relationship. Can you give examples of this? I think things work best when both people respect each other, and important decisions are made jointly.


I don't mean "my way or the highway" if that was the case she is not the type of person take that. She would be long gone, trust me. 

When it comes to the BIG decisions we always talk through figure things out together. That part is never going to change. I'm talking about all the little decisions happen in the day to day. 

Let me illustrate a common discussion when getting mutual buy in goes awry:

Me: what do you want to do tonight?
Her: I don't what do you want to do?
Me: Don't you like going "A"? Do you want to do that?
Her: I don't know is that what you want do?
Me: If that's what you want to do?

And so on and so on.. Which just sets a bad tone for the night. 

My approach is now very different. Instead of worrying constantly about what she thinks I'm just more decisive like I am with every other relationship in my life. For example the same conversation with a different approach:

Me: Any ideas about tonight?
Her: Not really.
Me: I think we should go to "A" it will be a lot of fun.
Her: Sounds OK but what about "B."
Me: "B" is OK but I think we should really do "A." I tell you want we will go to "A" and if your right we will leave early stop on the way to "B" by that frozen yogurt place you really like. 
Her: (grudgingly) OK. Sounds like a plan.

Usually taking the second approach where I am more in charge. Will work out better and end up having more fun.


----------



## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

Concerning women, (re)Actions ALWAYS speak louder than words.

Don't get so hung up on "feminist" or equality talk, ESPECIALLY ESPECIALLY ESPECIALLY in any sexual relatoinship! 

Beyond basic respect of course, mostly treat the "perceived notion of maintaining equality" much as a well disguised "sh!t test" and tings will continue fall into place rather easily.

No matter what the words say, her (re)actions will tell you the truth.

I wish you well.


----------



## Freak On a Leash (Feb 19, 2010)

Men and women are equally different. 

Equal pay for equal work. 

Respect each other equally and accept each other for what they are.

Attend to one another's needs and accept that those needs may be different but all are important and valid. 

That's my idea of feminism. 

If I don't wear a bra my boobs hurt so I'm not into burning my bras. Plus they are expensive. Especially the Wonder Bra. :rofl:


----------



## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

ontheball said:


> I don't mean "my way or the highway" if that was the case she is not the type of person take that. She would be long gone, trust me.
> 
> When it comes to the BIG decisions we always talk through figure things out together. That part is never going to change. I'm talking about all the little decisions happen in the day to day.
> 
> ...


----------



## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

Ah, I see what you mean. If one spouse is indecisive, the other should take charge and choose a course of action.

How are the big decisions made, such as if you move for one person to change jobs, or what kind of house you have?


----------



## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

I don't see the issue here. What am I missing?


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I don't see the issue here. What am I missing?


She wants him to be the Man in her marriage.

Easy.


----------



## mr.rightaway (Apr 27, 2010)

The feminist secretly craves the alpha male. If she is responding more positively to your alpha traits, then her secret is out.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

AFEH said:


> She wants him to be the Man in her marriage.
> 
> Easy.


And he's doing that so I don't see the issue. :scratchhead: They both sound really grounded and awesome.


----------



## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Reactions to others can be very contextually driven. My wife's aunts, graduates of a well known women's college as a feminist institution, really disliked me when I dated my wife. I endured some rough hazing, just because they thought I was a neanderthall. It really takes time to work out the contextual relationships, where they see that directness and taking charge in one situation doesn't mean that you don't respect their leadership in other areas. We are close now, but sometimes I feel like they try to use me as a bulldog on a leash sometimes, saying "Sick 'em", especially when things go south on family get togethers. Both of them know that my nickname from my boss is Bulldog, so they pat me on the head a little too often for my comfort.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

mr.rightaway said:


> The feminist secretly craves the alpha male. If she is responding more positively to your alpha traits, then her secret is out.


Well of course she does! Feminists by their very nature are "fighting for a cause" if you will and are driven. They want a man who can fight as well.


----------



## Freak On a Leash (Feb 19, 2010)

lovesherman said:


> How are the big decisions made, such as if you move for one person to change jobs, or what kind of house you have?


Well, IMO it's to be discussed equally between both partners and if there's a problem, worked out, compromised, etc, etc. 

This has nothing to do with feminism IMO. It's just being happily married and showing respect and consideration for one another.


----------



## ontheball (Nov 18, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I don't see the issue here. What am I missing?


The issue now is that now that I know what she actually wants how do I maintain that? 

Specially when she needs to reconcile having a more aggressive man and still maintain her feminist identity. 

It has come to head before early in our marriage. When I would hear comments like "you don't care what I think." Maybe I was to Alpha at the time but there in lies the issue. Maintaining the perfect level of alpha traits keep her physically interested in me while having just enough of the beta traits to please her feminist sensibilities. 

I just wanted to hear from others in the same boat who have manage to walk this tight rope and get some advice. Or those who have failed in this balancing act so I know what pitfalls to look for.


----------



## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

ontheball said:


> I just wanted to hear from others in the same boat who have manage to walk this tight rope and get some advice. Or those who have failed in this balancing act so I know what pitfalls to look for.


Contrary to popular opinion, alpha behaviors, or being a guy who feels comfortable taking decisive actions, doesn't mean that you aren't capable of sacrificial love. The very fact that you spend alot of time thinking of ways to keep the relationship healthy indicates alot about your character. 

So, you want to talk about pitfalls? Its easy to forget to ever ask yourself if she is doing her part to figure you out too. Keep trying to build a relationship, but don't ignore that building empty feeling if the balance gets tilted in the relationship. Not sure why it is, but for a certain type of man, asking "what's in it for you" rarely enters the equation until midlife.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

ontheball said:


> The issue now is that now that I know what she actually wants how do I maintain that?
> 
> Specially when she needs to reconcile having a more aggressive man and still maintain her feminist identity.
> 
> ...


It sounds like you are doing pretty darn well with whatever it is you are currently doing. If ain't broke, why fix it?


----------



## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

20 page thread, Easy.


----------



## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

Freak On a Leash said:


> This has nothing to do with feminism IMO.


It rarely, if ever, does.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

mr.rightaway said:


> The feminist secretly craves the alpha male. If she is responding more positively to your alpha traits, then her secret is out.


Maybe. But I can't always tell the difference between feminism and misandry. My wife fancies herself a feminist. She uses feminist ideas and rhetoric to support oppositional defiance to everything I say or do. It's a kind of knee jerk reaction, if a man said it, it must be wrong. I'm guessing that she picked this up from her mom. 

To quote the great King Solomon, "It is better to sleep on a corner of the roof than to live in a house with an argumentative woman."

Btw, in my wife's language, "you don't care what I think" means "I didn't get my way".


----------



## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> It's a kind of knee jerk reaction, if a man said it, it must be wrong.



So what's her TAM screen name?


----------



## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Kobo said:


> So what's her TAM screen name?


Kobo?


----------



## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Kobo said:


> So what's her TAM screen name?


Endless candidates in the "Considering Divorce" section. One of the many beauties of TAM is that I know I'm never alone


----------



## mr.rightaway (Apr 27, 2010)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Maybe. But I can't always tell *the difference between feminism and misandry.*


There's a difference?  ...*ducks and covers* 



Ten_year_hubby said:


> My wife fancies herself a feminist. She uses feminist ideas and rhetoric to support oppositional defiance to everything I say or do. It's a kind of knee jerk reaction, if a man said it, it must be wrong. I'm guessing that she picked this up from her mom.


In relation to the OP's question, he struggles to find the balance between his alpha and beta traits and what his wife says she stands for. The OP says that when he was emasculating himself to meet her needs (perceived equality), she was on the verge of cheating, that is until he took control of the situation, even though his wife has a dominant personality. He is finding that sometimes what she says is in opposition to how she actually acts to either trait. He's getting better reactions when he takes charge, sometimes using humor. I will requote the OP: "*I realize something that day what she said she wanted from me was in direct conflict from [what] she found attractive in me. In order to satisfy her need for equality I was emasculating myself."*



Ten_year_hubby said:


> To quote the great King Solomon, "It is better to sleep on a corner of the roof than to live in a house with an argumentative woman."
> 
> Btw, in my wife's language, "you don't care what I think" means "I didn't get my way".


Let her indulge in her misandry and see what happens. I'm sure if you let her always get her way all of the time, for awhile, she would be confused and wouldn't know what to do. Kind of like a deer in the headlights. Without the alpha male to balance her feminist tendencies, her ideology--the core of her being--doesn't exist.

For any man dealing with this, I would go with some of the other comments here. Just go with what works best and doesn't feel completely out-of-balance. Focus on the actions, not the words.


----------



## mr.rightaway (Apr 27, 2010)

Halien said:


> Contrary to popular opinion, alpha behaviors, or being a guy who feels comfortable taking decisive actions, doesn't mean that you aren't capable of sacrificial love. The very fact that you spend a lot of time thinking of ways to keep the relationship healthy indicates a lot about your character.
> 
> So, you want to talk about pitfalls? Its easy to forget to ever ask yourself if she is doing her part to figure you out too. Keep trying to build a relationship, but don't ignore that building empty feeling if the balance gets tilted in the relationship. Not sure why it is, but for a certain type of man, asking "what's in it for you" rarely enters the equation until midlife.


I agree. It just seems sometimes that when a man is considered an alpha male, that somehow he isn't capable of loving or respect his wife.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

mr.rightaway said:


> There's a difference?  ...*ducks and covers*
> .


Only if their isn't a difference between manning up and chauvenism.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

mr.rightaway said:


> I agree. It just seems sometimes that when a man is considered an alpha male, that somehow he isn't capable of loving or respect his wife.


Yet more misguided man bashing. In my humble opinion, demonstrating unwavering love and respect in the marriage relationship is one of the highest alpha characteristics if for no other reason due to the emotional strength required.


----------



## ontheball (Nov 18, 2011)

Let's not hijack the thread. 

I know it's sometimes easier to make villains of Alpha males and feminist and generalize both groups because they seem threatening. 

All I know is that I love my feminist wife and she loves her Alpha male. Neither one of us has animosity or hatred for the opposite sex. Plus, we are both very capable of selfless love. Moreover, as are most Alpha males or feminist. 

While I will admit it is much more difficult being a relationship where we both of us have type A personalities the work is well worth it.

We struggle sometimes because of our social expectations sometimes fly's against what we actually want and desire and finding that balance is the conversation I wanted to have with this thread.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

ontheball said:


> Let's not hijack with thread.
> 
> I know it's sometimes easier to make villains of Alpha males and feminist generalize both groups because they seem threatening.
> 
> ...


As I wrote earlier, I think you two sound lovely. Whatever you are doing is working so why worry about changing the formula?


----------



## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

ontheball said:


> While I will admit it is much more difficult being a relationship where we both have type A personalities the work is well worth it.
> 
> We struggle sometimes because of our social expectations sometimes fly's against what we actually want and desire and finding that balance is the conversation I wanted to have with this thread.


Yes, you have the potential for a great marriage, in my opinion, when you have two driver personalities. It really sounds like you understand that the start of it is a delicate dance. You are also going to hold each other to a higher standard, so I think its very important to also factor in some down time, where each of you are free to express areas where you feel vulnerable, where it won't be unintentionally used against you later. Not sure how you get there, maybe through some weekend getaways, but it could easily rachet up into a very tense relationship, if not thought out. There is a little bit of a difference between type A and alpha, in my opinion, so you can maybe think about the difference between you two when it comes to leadership/initiative and intensity, and how to relate to each other.


----------



## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

I think each partner in a marriage wants to be valued and have a voice.

In an earlier post in this thread, you gave an example of an exchange regarding going out, and how you handled it "before" with a back and forth .."what do you wanna do?", "I don't know, what do you wanna do?" exchange. From that you moved on to learning a more decisive exchange. And as long as you can keep that decisive exchange going without totally ignoring or stampeding over your wife, you'll be fine. As long as you value her input and allow her a voice, you'll be fine.

The following would be an example of a decisive exchange gone too far:

H: I've decided we should go out to dinner at <restaurant> tonite at 7. Be ready to leave by 6:30.
W: I've had a long, tiring day today. Can we get something to bring in instead and watch a movie at home while eating?
H: No, we're going out. Be ready at 6:30.

In that exchange the H didn't allow the W to have any voice at all and tried to steamroll her. That would be going too far in my opinion as it didn't allow the W any voice in the exchange, and devalued her mental/physical state after a long day - all over a dinner.

So, you don't sound like the kind of guy who is going to go over the deep end and try to control and monopolise or manipulate your wife. If you were, I don't think you would post here with concern about this topic.

So, as long as you keep in mind when you take a decisive action that you allow your wife a voice and you continue to value her, then I think you'll be fine.


----------



## mr.rightaway (Apr 27, 2010)

ontheball said:


> I know it's sometimes easier to make villains of Alpha males and feminist and generalize both groups because they seem threatening. All I know is that I love my feminist wife and she loves her Alpha male. Neither one of us has animosity or hatred for the opposite sex. Plus, we are both very capable of selfless love. Moreover, as are most Alpha males or feminist.


It's not about the opposing views being threatening. You are saying your wife is a feminist, so it's important to put that in context to try and understand what you're asking with the following:



ontheball said:


> It's been 6 months since that day. *I still struggle to maintain that balance of [being a] modern man and taking charge to rev her up.*


You also write:



ontheball said:


> While I will admit it is much more difficult being a relationship where we both of us have type A personalities the work is well worth it.
> 
> We struggle sometimes because of our social expectations sometimes fly's against what we actually want and desire and finding that balance is the conversation I wanted to have with this thread.


You're having the same struggle many of us do in modern times: What does it even mean to be in a modern relationship? Relationships take continual work, filled with battles and celebrations, you just have to do everything you can to be on the same page.

OP, it sounds to me that you are getting results, and revving her up in positive ways is also positive for you, so congratulations. I guess just try not to overdue it to where it backfires or distorts the balance of the relationship.


----------



## CSmith (Nov 19, 2011)

mr.rightaway said:


> The feminist secretly craves the alpha male. If she is responding more positively to your alpha traits, then her secret is out.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:
post modern day feminist are really just women who pretend to be feminist....your not married to a true feminist...I am, she doesn't budge on anything she truly wants to be equal...she's VERY different from the feminist i see today, they just act like they want to be in control and not equal but you really have to prove your the alpha to them. your lucky, your problem isnt that bad.


----------



## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

You made her feel safe & secure when you stepped up and got things going at the camp site. She appreciated you and felt immense admiration for your leadership and know how. She most likely didn't even consciously recognize she was rewarding you with hot sex because she wanted the hot sex.

How do you continue on this way? Continue to be a man she admires and looks up to...be yourself. Her being a feminist has little to do with her relationship with you because she loves you. She chose you.


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

It's quite funny really, personally I believe in women's equality, but don't quite follow the template of what feminism should be. I have my own disagreements with it. 

My wife herself is a rather strong-headed woman, I also value her intelligence and her attitude yes, in fact, if she was really stupid or weak I wouldn't even have bothered with her. 

The thing is, I've always been one to encourage women to step up as equals to men. Live together, sweat together, bleed together. However, how can you encourage one to stand up for themselves when you don't even do the same?

I believe in equality, but just as much as I would divorce my wife if her spirit is completely battered with no will to lift herself up, I would expect the same from my wife if I ever became so pathetic. Sure, when one loses hope, it is the other to bring encouragement and restore it. But the question lies in the spirit, if the will is strong enough to change, or is it just going to fester in eternal pessimism until drastic measures are taken.

In my opinion, that's equality, don't ever lose yourself as a man.


----------



## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

Your W is having an affair-with YOU!


----------



## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

RandomDude said:


> It's quite funny really, personally I believe in women's equality, but don't quite follow the template of what feminism should be. I have my own disagreements with it.
> 
> My wife herself is a rather strong-headed woman, I also value her intelligence and her attitude yes, in fact, if she was really stupid or weak I wouldn't even have bothered with her.
> 
> ...


Just a word of advice, Random Dude, don't show your wife the second to last paragraph in the above post. You sound like an unsupportive douche.


----------



## mr.rightaway (Apr 27, 2010)

Trenton said:


> You made her feel safe & secure when you stepped up and got things going at the camp site. She appreciated you and felt immense admiration for your leadership and know how. She most likely didn't even consciously recognize she was rewarding you with hot sex because she wanted the hot sex.
> 
> How do you continue on this way? Continue to be a man she admires and looks up to...be yourself. Her being a feminist has little to do with her relationship with you because she loves you. She chose you.


I actually agree with this. I was thinking it over a bit and thought something similar. It could be one of those pivotal moments in a relationship that changed the way she previously looked at him. He stepped up in a moment of crisis and did exactly what he needed to do. Bravo! She also now knows how he might react to situations like that in the future and she can let her guard down a little more than before.


----------



## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

mr.rightaway said:


> I actually agree with this. I was thinking it over a bit and thought something similar. It could be one of those pivotal moments in a relationship that changed the way she previously looked at him. He stepped up in a moment of crisis and did exactly what he needed to do. Bravo! She also now knows how he might react to situations like that in the future and she can let her guard down a little more than before.


What's with the _actually_ as if you're surprised? 

:rofl:

He made her feel safe and secure. There is nothing better than being with a man who not only has chosen you as the woman he wants to protect and love for his entire life, but he does an excellent job doing just that. Oh I can clearly pick out the times I've tested my husband...I'm quite a handful.

I didn't make this about feminism because I think it doesn't jive here. Perhaps the pigeon holed view that a feminist is unable to allow a man to be a man or a woman to be a woman would think it applies, but a feminist who believes that women should be valued equally, yet differently as they are different...won't have a problem with it.


----------



## mr.rightaway (Apr 27, 2010)

Trenton said:


> What's with the _actually_ as if you're surprised?
> 
> :rofl:


Well no, because I was going to post something similar when I had time but you already said it. I would have added the following: "Feminism fits her brain but not her biology." Whereby I mean that she was immensely turned on by his bold, take charge, maaaaaaaaanly actions. It's in her DNA to be revved up by such things. 



> He made her feel safe and secure. There is nothing better than being with a man who not only has chosen you as the woman he wants to protect and love for his entire life, but he does an excellent job doing just that.Oh I can clearly pick out the times I've tested my husband...I'm quite a handful.


Right, he didn't just bark orders, he did it tactfully and efficiently. Any woman on the planet would have been turned on by his actions. Not to let her completely off the hook on the respect issue, as she was on the verge of cheating on him in the past.



> I didn't make this about feminism because I think it doesn't jive here. Perhaps the pigeon holed view that a feminist is unable to allow a man to be a man or a woman to be a woman would think it applies, but a feminist who believes that women should be valued equally, yet differently as they are different...won't have a problem with it.


Feminism doesn't jive so much with that specific incident, but more going forward to a degree and that is his question: the question about balance. Feminism seeks balance the wrong way, in my opinion, but that is for a different thread. I think his question is more about normal male/female balance in a relationship with a little extra feminist spice mixed in. It's always an ongoing process. And I think he's doing just fine.


----------



## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

mr.rightaway said:


> Well no, because I was going to post something similar when I had time but you already said it. I would have added the following: "Feminism fits her brain but not her biology." Whereby I mean that she was immensely turned on by his bold, take charge, maaaaaaaaanly actions. It's in her DNA to be revved up by such things.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, we agree. Hate that in a thread so I must address your anti-feminist pro-biology thingy 

Feminism, feminist...should not be a dirty word. Women do need to speak up when their gender is being treated unfairly and many did/do so. If a man feels threatened by this he is insecure and uncaring just as if a woman tolerates mis-treatment or injustice towards women she is insecure or uncaring. It is quite *natural *for a woman (or any individual) to want to feel that they matter and are in a secure relationship. Allowing men to make women feel they are not capable or deserving of decision making/opinions/choices is an injustice to all. 

A woman who does not recognize a man's need or strengths in her own marriage is creating an injustice within her marriage and the same is true for a man in regards to his woman's needs and strengths. Women are beautiful and nurturing. There is nothing wrong with celebrating this. There is something wrong if you are objectifying this or trying to control it.


----------



## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

Trenton said:


> Yeah, we agree. Hate that in a thread so I must address your anti-feminist pro-biology thingy
> 
> Feminism, feminist...should not be a dirty word. Women do need to speak up when their gender is being treated unfairly and many did/do so. If a man feels threatened by this he is insecure and uncaring just as if a woman tolerates mis-treatment or injustice towards women she is insecure or uncaring. It is quite *natural *for a woman (or any individual) to want to feel that they matter and are in a secure relationship. Allowing men to make women feel they are not capable or deserving of decision making/opinions/choices is an injustice to all.
> 
> A woman who does not recognize a man's need or strengths in her own marriage is creating an injustice within her marriage and the same is true for a man in regards to his woman's needs and strengths. Women are beautiful and nurturing. There is nothing wrong with celebrating this. There is something wrong if you are objectifying this or trying to control it.


:allhail: Very well said, my lady!!


----------



## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Trenton said:


> Yeah, we agree. Hate that in a thread so I must address your anti-feminist pro-biology thingy
> 
> A woman who does not recognize a man's need or strengths in her own marriage is creating an injustice within her marriage and the same is true for a man in regards to his woman's needs and strengths. Women are beautiful and nurturing. There is nothing wrong with celebrating this. There is something wrong if you are objectifying this or trying to control it.


Maybe I'm misunderstanding this, it seems to be a given in the pro-feminist arguments that come up on this site that feminism is always uncoupled with some of the negative personality traits that some women carry into real life. On the other side, it seems to be a given from those who are opposed to feminism that it is always coupled with negative personality traits that can come with a person who holds this view.

Life is never this simple. Few can master just staying true to a basic transcendent idea. I have known women who are feminist in the purest sense, and frankly, I've never seen such a healthy self-respect as these women exemplify. But I've seen more real life examples of people who waffle back and forth between ideas, based on the circumstance at the time. I've witnessed first hand as women used it in a way that created friction in a marriage, with an aloofness that suggested that she considered her husband to be a fool. In real life, we simply can't describe the OPs wife as defaulting to the purest form of feminism, where it is only focused on self-actualization, and never used to make it hard for the OP to live with her in a happy relationship. Only he can answer this one, so I think its a bit harsh to accuse him of trying to manipulate her if he's just trying to survive and have a relationship that is fullfilling for someone other than just her. Or if he's trying to spice up the love life in a way that makes her more happy. And since he's not a professional writer, it may even be easy to capture phrases in his approach that offend feminists, but we don't really know the intent.

I do, however, get the feeling that some of us men are threatened by it, and find evil in feminism where it does not really exist, based on meeting one or two confused women. I'll leave that one alone.

I respect feminism. To think of the things that my mother had to endure to provide for us, even in these modern days, just makes me fume. But I can't believe that everyone will default to responding just like she did in other areas of her life, where she sought a path of feeling empowered at the same level as the men in her world.


----------



## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Halien said:


> Maybe I'm misunderstanding this, it seems to be a given in the pro-feminist arguments that come up on this site that feminism is always uncoupled with some of the negative personality traits that some women carry into real life. On the other side, it seems to be a given from those who are opposed to feminism that it is always coupled with negative personality traits that can come with a person who holds this view.
> 
> Life is never this simple. Few can master just staying true to a basic transcendent idea. I have known women who are feminist in the purest sense, and frankly, I've never seen such a healthy self-respect as these women exemplify. But I've seen more real life examples of people who waffle back and forth between ideas, based on the circumstance at the time. I've witnessed first hand as women used it in a way that created friction in a marriage, with an aloofness that suggested that she considered her husband to be a fool. In real life, we simply can't describe the OPs wife as defaulting to the purest form of feminism, where it is only focused on self-actualization, and never used to make it hard for the OP to live with her in a happy relationship. Only he can answer this one, so I think its a bit harsh to accuse him of trying to manipulate her if he's just trying to survive and have a relationship that is fullfilling for someone other than just her. Or if he's trying to spice up the love life in a way that makes her more happy. And since he's not a professional writer, it may even be easy to capture phrases in his approach that offend feminists, but we don't really know the intent.
> 
> ...


There are areas in my life where I am unyielding. These are child welfare and female welfare. The issue is black and white for me. There is no grey. I won't buy any excuse that leads to or upholds the abuse of a child or a woman and I see them as easy targets and men are usually the ones playing target practice. So I stand up here and work towards changing this. It's the easiest thing for me to do in my life. It feels natural.

Do I think this means all men are bad? All men objectify women? All men target women? Absolutely not.

Do I think this means all women don't want to take on roles that are dominant? Absolutely not.

I know I make most of the choices in our relationship. Sometimes I feel my husband is just along for the ride. I have a dominant personality but at the same time I would like him to be there for me if I fall and I definitely value his opinion and thoughts. I am susceptible to falling and failing. In fact, I've fallen and failed a lot. No one can be strong all the time. The fact that I'm not afraid to fail or fall (whereas my husband is afraid of this) is what makes me more likely to make the choices...not because I'm a feminist or an Alpha. 

That's why things become gray. Relationships are very gray for me all around.

I suppose I could feign security or knowledge but I'd be faking it. The end result? A lot of confusion and things left to learn. I can't imagine being so firm in my feministic world view that I couldn't consider anything that fell outside of it to be related directly to it or that I couldn't celebrate good men who do great things.


----------



## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Trenton said:


> There are areas in my life where I am unyielding. These are child welfare and female welfare. The issue is black and white for me. There is no grey. I won't buy any excuse that leads to or upholds the abuse of a child or a woman and I see them as easy targets and men are usually the ones playing target practice. So I stand up here and work towards changing this. It's the easiest thing for me to do in my life. It feels natural.
> 
> Do I think this means all men are bad? All men objectify women? All men target women? Absolutely not.
> 
> ...


I think I should've been a little clearer in my post because I didn't want you to think I was saying that you aren't seeing that these issues can be gray areas. The thing is that the moment someone introduces the theme of feminism being bad, the tone of the whole discussion can change into one of contrasting themes. My point was that you shouldn't have to feel like feminism needs to be defended. These gray areas make it hard to talk about a subject in a way that really supports the topic at hand.

I'll try a different example, and hopefully not muck it up. You say that it feels like your husband is coasting at times. Well, its a gray area for men in general, because I think we have that weakness in general. Its sad, yet some men, especially the ones who join a site like this, do work hard to avoid lethargy in the marriage. I could just see people saying that men don't coast through marriage anymore than women, and then its not addressing the fact that your husband is coasting, at times. 

To be a little more direct, my post was saying, "Hey guys, let's not be shootng down feminists, please. The OP seems to really love these traits in his wife, but just wants to be able to better understand how he can make things better for them." Yeah, I read too much into things, but see no need to be disrespectin' his wife - even though that was not the intent of the others, I understand.

BTW Trenton, I'm sorry that the dynamic exists at times in your marriage. I think people forget that a strong person is still a regular person in many ways.


----------



## mr.rightaway (Apr 27, 2010)

Trenton said:


> I didn't make this about feminism because I think it doesn't jive here.


Not to be intentionally argumentative, but the OP says feminism jives with him--and that he *loves...loves, loves, loves* his feminist. And she loves her alpha male. As has been stated, he is also saying that his feminist wife is reacting differently to his take-charge attitude than what she is saying she wants. I really am trying to keep the conversation in context to the OP while discussing his wife's feminist identity...yet not taking some points too far and having this become another feminism thread:



ontheball said:


> The issue now is that now that I know what she actually wants how do I maintain that?
> *
> Specially when she needs to reconcile having a more aggressive man and still maintain her feminist identity*.


I actually think this is a great opportunity to test out new things. See what kind of behaviors she likes or doesn't like. Finding that balance is sometimes what relationships are all about.



ontheball said:


> It has come to head before early in our marriage. When I would hear comments like "you don't care what I think." Maybe I was to Alpha at the time but there in lies the issue. Maintaining the perfect level of alpha traits keep her physically interested in me while having just enough of the beta traits to please her feminist sensibilities.
> 
> I just wanted to hear from others in the same boat who have manage to walk this tight rope and get some advice. Or those who have failed in this balancing act so I know what pitfalls to look for.


Ontheball, my first-hand experience is that too much alpha induces too much fighting and intentional backlash. They do not want to be controlled. However, too much beta was always, always met with distancing/boredom/lack of interest. 

A guy I used to go to school with who was naturally good with women once put it to me like this: "You've got to give a little, take a little away. Give a little...take a little away."



ontheball said:


> We were camping at a music festival with a couple dozen friends.


Bonnaroo?


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Trenton said:


> Just a word of advice, Random Dude, don't show your wife the second to last paragraph in the above post. You sound like an unsupportive douche.


Oh I won't, the D word is very damaging, but furthermore I'm very selective of what I print out for her nowadays since our last big fight. Heh... "since our last fight" I say that alot don't I? heh



> Ontheball, my first-hand experience is that too much alpha induces too much fighting and intentional backlash. They do not want to be controlled. However, too much beta was always, always met with distancing/boredom/lack of interest.


Well, the missus and I have been fighting all of our lives together. =/ The only problem lies in issues that linger and aren't resolved during fights. At that point it either turns to a cold war or we simply just keep beating each other up until we get bored of it.



> A guy I used to go to school with who was naturally good with women once put it to me like this: "You've got to give a little, take a little away. Give a little...take a little away."


Heh I consider it more like... inflate her bubble, pop her bubble, inflate her bubble, pop her bubble, careful now, you may end up accused of being a "rollercoaster ride" like me


----------



## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Halien said:


> I think I should've been a little clearer in my post because I didn't want you to think I was saying that you aren't seeing that these issues can be gray areas. The thing is that the moment someone introduces the theme of feminism being bad, the tone of the whole discussion can change into one of contrasting themes. My point was that you shouldn't have to feel like feminism needs to be defended. These gray areas make it hard to talk about a subject in a way that really supports the topic at hand.
> 
> I'll try a different example, and hopefully not muck it up. You say that it feels like your husband is coasting at times. Well, its a gray area for men in general, because I think we have that weakness in general. Its sad, yet some men, especially the ones who join a site like this, do work hard to avoid lethargy in the marriage. I could just see people saying that men don't coast through marriage anymore than women, and then its not addressing the fact that your husband is coasting, at times.
> 
> ...


Got you this time around 

Don't be sorry. Perfection is boring. 

I like the original poster. He's obviously appreciative of his wife, good at taking charge in difficult situations and proactive in seeking a continued happy relationship between his wife and himself. Kudos.


----------

