# Is it our mythologies and egos that make infidelity so painful?



## cj9947 (Jul 9, 2011)

I began to ponder today my emotional responses to my D-Day and am starting to believe a large part of the pain I have been experiencing is partly the result of myths that I have willingly bought into and my ego.

Reading dozens of threads on this message board; reflecting on infidelity relating to family and friends, movies about infidelity, TV shows about infidelity, music about infidelity all seem to indicate that infidelity in a societal norm. Not accepted, like drugs, but none the less we accept it's presence via decriminalization and no fault divorce.

The data that I have read since D-Day indicates that there is a reasonable chance all marriages will experience some form of infidelity. Sometimes the infidelity is found out sometimes it is not.

In fact, as I counted the marriages I have, personally, known about and the vast majority come back with some form of known or unknown infidelity. Some of the stories almost defy Hollywood scripts.

So why then was this such an emotional shock to me? Some thoughts are;

Ego - no, no not me....this can't be happening to me...this isn't fair...I guess my ego makes me think I am special so I should be immune to these situations. Well that is bull. I am just as regular and normal as anyone else this happens to.

Myths - souls mates, till death do us part, love, love, love...Romeo & Juliet...marriage means monogamy, blah, blah, blah...the reality is like most spouses my wife had sex before she met me and if I dropped dead tomorrow she would have sex after me...we humans are sexual and not monogamous by design. So I acknowledge my spouse was sexual before meeting me and would be sexual after my death. Naive of me to be so shocked she was sexual in between?

While I am not condoning my wife's behavior or any wayward spouse's behavior; I am starting to acknowledge my role in my mental and emotional response to the affair. I believe my marital/love myths and ego are a big player to how I experience this turmoil.

Thoughts?


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

It's the betrayal that makes it so painful. The lying, the deception that makes you question your entire relationship and your partner.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Alivinghell (Jul 27, 2011)

1 month out from D-day here. Still dying inside. I have thought exactly what you've said here more than once. I knew it was possible but thought we were better than that and too in love for that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

cj9947 said:


> Myths - souls mates, till death do us part, love, love, love...*Romeo & Juliet*...marriage means monogamy, blah, blah, blah...


Just to add another dimension to the concept...remember that Romeo & Juliet is a tragedy, in which the star-crossed lovers kill themselves.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cj9947 (Jul 9, 2011)

Alivinghell said:


> 1 month out from D-day here. Still dying inside. I have thought exactly what you've said here more than once. I knew it was possible but thought we were better than that and too in love for that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You and I have never met yet we have experienced a similar life crisis and have had almost the exact response to it. Why did we and why do we hold on to some belief that we were above this? It seems like this belief is our responsibility and it makes matters worse. No?


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## Whip Morgan (May 26, 2011)

I think a mythology of marriage absolutely exists. "Til death", fidelity that will not be broken because vows were exchanged, etc. That mythology, I believe, is a leading factor of people who post here with suspicions of a spouse's infidelity. When experienced posters, who have seen it over and over again, respond by pointing out red flags, denial kicks in for the BS. "He/She would never.." "I'm positive there is nothing going on.."

Then, a few days or weeks later, its "He/She was cheating..I dug deeper and found x/y/z" "I cant believe he/she would do this..." I think that mythology you speak of plays a part in the denial stage, then the agony of first discovering the affair. Hand in hand with shock, sadness, anger, etc. 

I'm not married, but some members here that I've communicated with know how I found this place (friend's marriage crisis, trying to help) and continued marriage problems for not only friends, but now family.

I've learned much on these boards for close to a year. Lots of it on "man up" threads, being the Pushover Nice Guy, etc. One of the most important things I've learned is to never underestimate a person, whether you are married or just in a relationship. People are still human and vows taken on the wedding day will not necessarily lock them into fidelity for life. I am certainly glad that I found TAM - I am now aware of red flags of infidelity that I never would have known otherwise. The biggest of all was my own red flag - I, too, once believed in the mythology of marriage. My own parents divorce and the failures of so many friends' marriages did not shake that. It took months of following stories on TAM to wake my a$$ up. And for the posters willing to share their stories, I am thankful.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

This whole line of reason makes me think that I am possibly entirely too practical. Its a matter of giving so much to help my wife cope with her bipolar condition that an active act of betrayal would just be too much. I know that you'll never know exactly how you would respond until it happens, but her occasional refusal to stay plugged in with a therapist recently almost led to divorce. Maybe my situation is extreme, but I don't think think it is too far out of the sphere of others. All of us, including my wife, put up with really tough flaws in our spouses, but the thing that makes it all worthwhile is not sharing that life journey with another man or woman. 

I wonder if some of it also boils down to our perception of our self-worth. To understand the questions that you are asking, maybe we have to ask ourselves if we cling to the spouse out of desperation, or because of choice and integrity.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

Humans are designed to function best when loved by other humans. Cheating and lying and abuse are contradictory to love. 

People are manipulated in different ways by mass media and marketing. Mostly the t.v. shows play to addictive pathways in the brain of tabook or stressful situations that need resolution even if the conscious brain knows they are contrived the unconscious brain does not...so it is possible to sell more ads based on viewership of a certain demographic.

For marketing the key is to try to make people feel inferior but to use a certain product, or by using a certain product they are 'normal' or 'connected' or whatever.

Every once in a while I will only watch movies or listen to recorded music, and not watch tv or news or radio or even read a daily newspaper. It's like a media vacation. So then how do I get my information, it is from people around me. Because I am not the only person in my town who is like this, usually we do a great job of relating relevant news and information very quickly and efficiently. But once I go outside of my area, I notice people who don't behave according to the situation, they act in some way according to some imposed social standard or behavior that came from tv or some other inauthentic source. 

I don't care what the media says or what mob behavior says there is scientific proof that people connect through their heart and that love is critical to this connection.

Babies actually die from failure to thrive and this is simply from lack of connection in most cases. Humans are designed that way.


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## it-guy (Jan 6, 2011)

I"m not so sure I agree 100%. I do understand what you are saying about myths. I had the myth that this would never happen to me, and no matter how good or bad my relationship was that it could not happen.......could not happen.

But, I'm not sure that was the main source of pain for me. My main source of pain was the sudden realization that this woman I love with all my heart willingly chose to give her entire life and body to another man.....a man she hardly knew. This my friends is rejection on the highest level. This is the only person in the world that I have givin this kind of love and trust to. And this person has humiliated and rejected me in the worst way possible. Only this person could have hurt me this bad.

That is my source of pain.

Now there are a lot of other feelings that intertwine into this whole web of pain. Here is just a short list for me:

Invasion of privacy – the OM heard nothing but bad things about me, some true, some exaggerated.

Loss of self worth – who could possibly retain this after your spouse seemingly falls in love with someone else. What is wrong with you and what is so much better about the OM?

Smashed masculinity – hey, were you asleep at the wheel while you should have been protecting your spouse and family? What kind of man are you to let this happen?

Loss of your past and good memories – Every moment you have shared lead up to D-Day

Post traumatic stress / fear – constantly being scared because you can see it all ending any day, and you don’t have a choice in any of it. It will just happen to you because you spouse chooses to do it.

Loss of confidence/comfort/security – you don’t know or understand anything since your eyes were shown this “reality”

Loss of trust – This was a gift you once had…..it may recover but will never be the same.

Loss of productivity/income – forget working for a while.

Rethinking your life goals – yep….you used to have them. Time to start over.

Loss of friendships – you are going to be uncomfortable around people who knew, or now know.

Children affected – They can see it….they can feel it….it hurts your children.

Physical side effects – sleep disorders, eating/digestive disorders, joint pain, muscle pain, headaches.

Mental side effects – mild to moderate depression (probably severe in my case)

Sexual side effects – (see lack of confidence, and mental side effects, and add a good dose of mind movies about your spouse with the OP)


These are all very real things to me. Infidelity is not a simple thing. It brings layers of hurt with it. Anyone recovering understands how you shift through these layers (stages) of hurt where you get over one source of hurt only to be presented by another.

That being said.....and to keep this from all being doom and gloom....at least you do stand a chance to have a strong mature relationship. Because you are not a kid anymore. You have grown up now. How I handle all of this is up to me. And it is up to you as well.


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## Alivinghell (Jul 27, 2011)

cj9947 said:


> You and I have never met yet we have experienced a similar life crisis and have had almost the exact response to it. Why did we and why do we hold on to some belief that we were above this? It seems like this belief is our responsibility and it makes matters worse. No?


I know what you mean. Yes I think it makes matters worse. I guess I had my husband on a pedestal when it came to something like this. I didn't think he was capable of doing this to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Another myth relates on what a cheater looks like. Ask any man/woman not affected personally by infidelity, to conjure up an image of an unfaithful partner and describe it. More often than not, he/she will describe a seedy looking character. They have no idea that the a cheater could look like their mother, father, sister, brother, etc. in other words, people who they would never suspect of being unfaithful. Sadly it takes becoming a betrayed spouse - or even a cheater - to bust that myth.


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## cj9947 (Jul 9, 2011)

it-guy said:


> I"m not so sure I agree 100%. I do understand what you are saying about myths. I had the myth that this would never happen to me, and no matter how good or bad my relationship was that it could not happen.......could not happen.
> 
> But, I'm not sure that was the main source of pain for me. My main source of pain was the sudden realization that this woman I love with all my heart willingly chose to give her entire life and body to another man.....a man she hardly knew. This my friends is rejection on the highest level. This is the only person in the world that I have givin this kind of love and trust to. And this person has humiliated and rejected me in the worst way possible. Only this person could have hurt me this bad.
> 
> ...


I identify and have experienced virtually all of what you have written out so well. 

Invasion of privacy – the OM heard I was controlling and straight laced.

Loss of self worth – all my life's accomplishments all of a sudden seem to me nothing to my wife.

Smashed masculinity – she did things with him she never did with me. Why?

Loss of your past and good memories – Exactly....

Post traumatic stress / fear – I experienced uncontrollable triggers,

Loss of confidence/comfort/security – I doubted myself.

Loss of trust – Gone forever....

Loss of productivity/income – N/A

Rethinking your life goals – I had a hard time even thinking of any.

Loss of friendships – I now have doubts about certain people and have not been interested in contacting them.

Children affected – N/A

Physical side effects – I've experienced insomnia and upset stomach.

Mental side effects – Yes, mild to moderate depression 

Sexual side effects – I have not experienced this yet.

Yet, I started asking myself, "Why do I put myself in this state of mind when these are my wife's actions and not mine?" Sure we are married but I would not take it so personal if she went out and robbed a bank tomorrow.

Betrayed Spouses are not wayward spouse's parents. I did not teach my wife her morals and ethics. Her parents did. When I met my wife she was a grown women.

I can think of some very bad/evil things I experienced when I was a teenager and young adult. I saw someone get murdered with a knife over a drug deal gone wrong. I was at a keg party once and a guy failed to pay the $3.50 fee so my friend beat him unconscious; stole his shoes and left him in the snow to freeze to death. The guy survived but lost three toes. Did I lose sleep over these incidents? No. Did I get depressed? No. Did it affect my self confidence? No. I had no fantasies about my world and situation at the time.

But my wife decides to deceive me and do what we all know goes on in the world and I lose it. I seem to be my own worst enemy in my emotions and attitudes about the reality of what has happened. I have punished myself over someone else s behavior. It seems a bit irrational.


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## BigBri (Jul 22, 2011)

> It's the betrayal that makes it so painful. The lying, the deception that makes you question your entire relationship and your partner.


I totally agree with this. My ego is _dented_ for sure, but the deception is what kills me. To go even further... my situation consisted of my _hooker_ GF screwing someone in our social circle. To think that it was right under my nose all this time is what angers me... it doesn't sadden me- it angers me. The blatant disregard for a persons feelings is the thing that stings. As for my ego, I know I can get another chick- even better than my ex. That's not the problem. I just hate being decieved like this... makes me feel stupid and ignorant.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

Life makes myths, which is why some aspects of mythology are universal despite cultural and geographical isolation. Myths do not create life, they reflect universalities, though they can result in some funny cultural thinking, such as what makes someone go blind. Some of the stuff you see in media at present time are not myths or even collective beliefs, but cultural artifacts that make people go hmmmmmmmm and need to be churned about in order to find direction. It's like the evolution of dimsum...picture dimsum across the eons...being wheeled around and presented...cooks come up with the concoctions based on what is available in food supply in any given month/year/decade/century/millenium...over time some stuff comes and goes, some stuff gets rejected, some stuff has staying power and some foods even have myths attached to them with the powers of aphrodisia, or amnesia, or somnia, or energy...at times they are celebrated by adorning potters or having entire cooking/storage devices devoted to them, or even festivals (Vermont has a garlic festival!) So, in the 70's we had Pringles. They came in a can. Cool. I bet if you were a time traveler from a thousand years in the future and you came across a warehouse filled with Pringles, you'd be impressed and think they were important to have a whole facility dedicated to the manufacture and storage and distribution of these things, even a can designed specially to protect them. Wow, they must be essential to human life! Perspective is essential to get a handle on why things exist and what their importance might be to the concept of human life and collective society. Things exist and they are addictive and much is made of them, but do they have staying power in importance, are they essential to the threads that hold us together? Everything changes and everything is in flux, that is adjustment as people are seeking their centers. It's natural that some people will have more partners and different experiences, but it is the core value or an artifact of seeking the core value, or just a cultural anomaly of how media and social behavior engage each other? 

If you watch a lot of sex and stuff on tv here is my thinking, you are not spending quality time with others, you are consuming addictive media, so you are not going to make sound decisions that reflect how humans and the natural world are meant to interact. TV is fun, and it is most certainly a part of what impacts people in their decision making process, but it's only been around slightly longer than Pringles.

However, Tales of the Genji preceded tv by a few years LOL so this sort of consumption perhaps does have a place in the production, consumption, and influence of society. Maybe it's like people and domstic cats, co-evolution and one does not necessarily influence the other but they just are the way they are, constantly adjusting, reflecting and influencing. Chicken and egg.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

cj9947 said:


> I have punished myself over someone else s behavior. It seems a bit irrational.


That is so very true. Recognition of that is a sign of an exceptionally self-aware person. To get to that point we have to take our self out of the equation with our spouse and look back into the marriage and view the husband and wife from a very detached perspective. A bit like a scientist studying the behaviour of ants. And to do that we have to know and understand the difference between “I” and “Me”.

It is “Me” who suffers with all that has been written here. But it is “I” that survives that suffering and it is the “I” that continues it’s journey in life. And it will be “I” that sometime in the future looks back and sees Me: as a betrayed spouse, but now I’m over it and enjoying life again.

It is “I” that sees Me: as a kiddie, a toddler. Me: as a teenager. Me: as a manager. Me: as a husband and father etc. etc. “I” survives everything from the day we were born to the day we die. Me? Me changes as we grow and evolve on our journey through life. Because of our memory “I” can see everything that we’ve ever experienced and because of our imagination and emotions we can actually re-experience all the good and bad things that have ever happened to us in our life.

“Awareness” by Anthony de Mello teaches these things. He demonstrates ways to “Detach and become an observer of your own life”. And when we can do that we see that our spouse is a unique person, just like ourselves, a person with their own core values and beliefs. And it was their values and beliefs that caused their behaviour, nothing at all to do with our own values and beliefs. And as such they would do the exact same things no matter who they were married to.

And from that point of view, punishing ourselves for another’s behaviour does seem very irrational. But if we didn’t actually feel those so very painful emotions then indeed we would be some kind of sociopath/psychopath. It’s the fact that we’re human with compassion, empathy, love etc. that we do feel like we do and in that sense it’s not irrational at all. We have an ego and that gets deeply hurt at times in our life.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

cj9947 said:


> Yet, I started asking myself, "Why do I put myself in this state of mind when these are my wife's actions and not mine?" Sure we are married but I would not take it so personal if she went out and robbed a bank tomorrow.
> 
> Betrayed Spouses are not wayward spouse's parents. I did not teach my wife her morals and ethics. Her parents did. When I met my wife she was a grown women.


This might be getting to the root of these fears within you. Think about how you feel if your wife suffers a period of depression. Most of us think that we, as husbands, should be able to provide enough support to keep this from happening, but can we? Its within her.

If she constantly points to this traumatic experience in your past, saying that this is the reason that you cannot meet her emotional needs, then she is relieving herself of guilt if she later has an affair with another.

Like the depression example, you begin to question yourself more than her if she cheats. Pershaps some start to think that they deserved this betrayal. Others try to minimize the action, equating it to the level of a drug habit or impersonal action. But there is nothing impersonal about cheating to the betrayed one. One who looks at it this way, and still has a heart to forgive will probably be the one who heals most effectively after reconciliation.


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## Looking to heal (Jun 15, 2011)

I also think there have been significant changes in society as far as the interaction between men and women vs a generation ago.

Before when women didn't work if marriage was bad they had nowhere to go. Before people were more discreet about their personal lives you didn't have Oprah and Dr. Phil and Facebook.

Now people are more selfish and have more choices and more information and how men and women interact has been redefined.

Today it is hard to be married.

Also, many people do not believe in the institution of marriage or it is modelled differently than the typical approach here. Mormons, European Models with mistresses etc.

I did experience the symptoms described above as well.

Coming to this site and reflecting on infidelity, initially I felt like I was the only person in the world who experienced this but now I see many others are in the same boat and this somehow makes it feel better (mysery loves company ?).

Regardless of how marriage is defined, infidelity is the ultimate betrayal from the person you love, your best friend, your lover...

I think it would feel the same way if you were not married but were with someone many years with kids etc.


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## it-guy (Jan 6, 2011)

Looking to heal,

Yes those things make it all harder to be married these days. And most would agree that women working out of the home and FaceBook have probably increased the odds big time that cheating will happen.

Why can't people just use FaceBook for what it was intended.....playing cafe world...lol


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## dd080510 (Jul 27, 2011)

I totally agree. I too thought this could not happen in my marriage. We were too good for this. We openly talked about it. My husband had been cheated on by his ex gf and it hurt him very badly so he would know enough to never do this. We are both religious people with high morals and would help anyone in need.. surely my husband would never take anyone up on an offer to cheat. We were still best friends and had sex on a regular basis. Even though we had a lot going on and I knew he was very vulnerable, I still never worried no matter who was in his life. I was convinced this could never happen and it only happened in unhappy marriages. Our marriage was happy so it just wasn't a possibility. I also thought a spouse would go out looking for it or it would something that happened repeatedly.. not just for a very short time. Boy, was I wrong. I never thought some other woman would be crazy enough to stalk my husband and show up in front of him and offer him oral. I was okay with him catching up with his ex because she was married too and surely that made her completely unavailable. Besides, they were just talking about the past.. nothing about love or feelings for each other. I had no clue about boundaries. I now realize that no matter what marriage I may have entered, it's always a possibility and boudaries always need to be set. No marriage is immune. I heard stories about friend's who have been cheated on and felt sorry for them for picking such crappy partners.. clearly my partner was better than them. I was wrong, again.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

dd080510 said:


> I had no clue about boundaries. I now realize that no matter what marriage I may have entered, it's always a possibility and boundaries always need to be set. No marriage is immune. I heard stories about friend's who have been cheated on and felt sorry for them for picking such crappy partners.. clearly my partner was better than them. I was wrong, again.


:iagree:

I seriously believe that the late Dr Shirley Glass' book 'Not Just Friends' should be mandatory reading for every couple considering getting married. This book shows how even happily married people can have an affair if marital boundaries are crossed. Your story is proof of this truth.


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## 2xloser (May 8, 2011)

it-guy said:


> Invasion of privacy – the OM heard nothing but bad things about me, some true, some exaggerated.
> 
> Loss of self worth – who could possibly retain this after your spouse seemingly falls in love with someone else. What is wrong with you and what is so much better about the OM?
> 
> ...



What a great list - should be required reading for all unfortunate newbies. Talk about not feeling alone in what we go through.... thx


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## HurtinginTN (Feb 22, 2011)

it-guy said:


> I"m not so sure I agree 100%. I do understand what you are saying about myths. I had the myth that this would never happen to me, and no matter how good or bad my relationship was that it could not happen.......could not happen.
> 
> But, I'm not sure that was the main source of pain for me. My main source of pain was the sudden realization that this woman I love with all my heart willingly chose to give her entire life and body to another man.....a man she hardly knew. This my friends is rejection on the highest level. This is the only person in the world that I have givin this kind of love and trust to. And this person has humiliated and rejected me in the worst way possible. Only this person could have hurt me this bad.
> 
> ...


:iagree: I could have written this word for word. Well, you used better wording than I would have, but I have had all of these things as well. It's crazy how the disloyal spouses follow a script and we loyal spouses have the same reactions. Misery does love company. It's nice to not feel like you are the only one going through this mess.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

it-guy's post is pure gold. While not all of them apply to everyone, most people experience most of them.

This topic is very interesting. It all starts from one thing. People are simple. They are smart, but very simple.

For women, needs must be met, especially emotional needs. If the husband meets them, she is very unlikely to stray. If he CONSISTENTLY makes her feel special, 98% of her reasons for straying are gone. Want your wife to stay faithful, make her feel special. Of all the stories on here (when the W cheated), just about every one started with the WW getting attention from the OM. He made me feel special, wanted, he listened, etc. All the same thing.

For men, it really comes down to curbing physical appetites. Most men don't need that much, as long as they are getting laid on a regular basis. The science of this is obvious. Men are built to spread seed. However, we are in a civilized world with morals and rules. Some men adhere to them and some just can't, no matter what promises they have made. Spreading seed translates to double takes when a hot girl walks by, flirting, compliments, pursuit, capture, sex. 

Men who get egos stroked by their mates will be less likely to do this, but the God-given physical urges are still there, and he will have to curb them sufficiently to stay faithful.

And yes, I agree that monogamy is not natural for humans, especially men. But it's a societal option, that once entered into via marriage, should be obeyed. It's as simple as that. It's a choice. Don't want to be monogamous, don't get married.


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## cj9947 (Jul 9, 2011)

HurtinginTN said:


> :iagree: I could have written this word for word. Well, you used better wording than I would have, but I have had all of these things as well. It's crazy how the disloyal spouses follow a script and we loyal spouses have the same reactions. Misery does love company. It's nice to not feel like you are the only one going through this mess.


The way our responses are so similar, are we not following a script taught to us? Articles, books, web sites, and marriage counseling literature are all so consistent in telling me how I am supposed to feel in response to infidelity. It seems as though if I follow what they tell me I am going to self punish and they are going to make $$$$. Do I have to follow their script or can we not respond in a more positive way in terms of our own self interest? What says this is the best response for us in terms of infidelity? 

"It-Guy's" list of emotional reactions to infidelity is fascinating on two parts to me. First being how intense it is and how so many of us identify with it and accept it as a normal response. What would the list look like for God sake if we had to make one for things way worse then infidelity? Such as murder, terminal illness, rape, child molestation, war and etc.

I followed a certain NFL team for 28 years and I use to live and die according to their victories. My friends and I would go through a depression state when they blew an easy win. After one particular loss I was yelling at them through the TV. Then one day a friend sent me a video of my favorite team exiting the stadium after a loss and they we all smiles and laughter. I realized they were happy because they got their $$$$ win, lose or draw. I realized I was taught that zealous passion from childhood when I played youth sports. And now I could not care one inkling of who wins and loses.

Infidelity is wrong because you are breaking an agreement. But should we allow it to take the emotional toll it does on us considering the lack of real control we have over another human's behavior? I am starting to believe the answer to be "No". A problem that does not make my Top 10 list of "Worst Things That Can Happen to a Person."


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## Alivinghell (Jul 27, 2011)

cj9947 said:


> I identify and have experienced virtually all of what you have written out so well.
> 
> Invasion of privacy – the OM heard I was controlling and straight laced.
> 
> ...


CJ, I feel like you are in my head. As for smashed masculinity, this doesn't just apply to men. I am female and feel the same way because my husband did things with her he never did with me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> For women, needs must be met, especially emotional needs. If the husband meets them, she is very unlikely to stray. If he CONSISTENTLY makes her feel special, 98% of her reasons for straying are gone. Want your wife to stay faithful, make her feel special. Of all the stories on here (when the W cheated), just about every one started with the WW getting attention from the OM. He made me feel special, wanted, he listened, etc. All the same thing.
> 
> For men, it really comes down to curbing physical appetites. Most men don't need that much, as long as they are getting laid on a regular basis. The science of this is obvious. Men are built to spread seed. However, we are in a civilized world with morals and rules. Some men adhere to them and some just can't, no matter what promises they have made. Spreading seed translates to double takes when a hot girl walks by, flirting, compliments, pursuit, capture, sex.
> 
> ...


I disagree.

While it is true that unmet emotional needs leave a spouse vulnerable to having an affair, even happily married spouses - who usually have most of their emotional needs met - can have an affair. 

The thing that makes it possible for an affair to occur is the gradual crossing of marital boundaries - i.e. discussing marital issues with another member of the opposite sex, spending excessive time alone with a member of the opposite sex, excessive non-business related communication with a member of the opposite sex, partying without ones spouse and engaging in alcohol consumption with members of the opposite sex, close friendship with unfaithful spouses, etc.

There are plenty of stories on this and other infidelity related forums, where a happily married spouse found him/herself doing what he/she would have never thought possible, having an affair. All of these happened because of they did not take precautions to avoid crossing marital boundaries.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

But why did they cross? There is always a point where you go from "spending too much time with a member of the opposite sex" to "I am now being inappropriate".

I am of the belief that at some point there is a bright line. It's one thing to be friendly or platonically flirt a litte. It's quite another to profess love or get physical. Sure, there is gray on both sides, but in the middle there is a bright line, IMO.

And so the question stands. WHY did you cross the bright line?

And I go back to my theories above. 

Even the drunk allowed themselves to be in the position to cheat. Someone deciding not to cross that line gets out of the situation before it is too late. Someone open to crossing it LETS things get out of hand, and again, I go back to WHY, and my previous post.

That all said, they are just theories, and I respect the disagreement.


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## dd080510 (Jul 27, 2011)

Gabriel: Although I believe this happens in a lot of situations, this does not happen in all of them. Affairs happen for more reasons other than marital needs not being met. My situation is proof of that. My husband will tell anyone we work with on this that it had nothing to do with me or his needs not being met. Nothing was wrong with our marriage. He was catching up with an old gf on Facebook consisting of what have you been up to's and she followed him and basically pulled down his pants. This happened twice before he stopped her. In our situation, his mother was dying a nasty death and his only thought on why he did it is that he was trying to escape it. But you are right on the line being crossed before anything happens.. catching up should have never been happening. Not without me fully knowing the extent of it. The why of him doing it: I truly believe he was excited to be bringing up his past while his mother was dying.. he wasn't accepting the present of her dying and suffering during this time. Maybe he thought it would go away for awhile, who knows. It wasn't because of any unmet needs. The happiest and most fulfilled spouses can cheat if they are in a vulnerable time and it is put right in front of them. I know that during this exact time, he never changed, we were still best friends, having sex regularly, and still shared a deep bond.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Gabriel

In many cases the process of crossing marital boundaries is a long and slow one. It may be many months or even years before a spouse finally crosses the last one which will cause him or her to engage in the affair.

It goes without saying that just because a person is married doesn't mean that he/she is no longer attracted to members of the opposite sex, that's a given. So it is possible to slowly start developing an emotional/sexual connection that can lead to an affair.

Also let's not forget that a cheating spouse might cheat because of unresolved issues that pre-date the marriage that the betrayed spouse may not even be aware of. Not to mention spouses with undiagnosed and/or untreated personality disorder issues. 

If you haven't done so already, I would suggest that you read Dr Shirley Glass' book 'Not Just Friends' for more regarding how crossing marital boundaries can lead to affairs even among happily married people.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

morituri said:


> Gabriel
> 
> Also let's not forget that a cheating spouse might cheat because of unresolved issues that pre-date the marriage that the betrayed spouse may not even be aware of. Not to mention spouses with undiagnosed and/or untreated personality disorder issues.


That is true. I didn't think about that one. But when there is no pre-dated mental problems, I stand my what I said.

In dd's post, I don't buy your husband's excuse. He brought himself to that boundary, and crossed it, FOR A REASON. Remember what I said about men. It's not the same. The needs part was referring to women. For men, it's about the physical stuff, most of the time. It's innate in us to procreate. If you think he got in touch with that ex GF and didn't think about her in that way you are in denial.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Gabriel said:


> But why did they cross? There is always a point where you go from "spending too much time with a member of the opposite sex" to "I am now being inappropriate".
> 
> I am of the belief that at some point there is a bright line. It's one thing to be friendly or platonically flirt a litte. It's quite another to profess love or get physical. Sure, there is gray on both sides, but in the middle there is a bright line, IMO.
> 
> ...


Some people, men and women, are just skanks, slappers. It really is as simple as that. I was in a pub with an acquaintance and his uncle. They were bragging about how many women they’d had. They’d both been married multiple times.

It really is all a matter of what an individual values and what they believe in. Some people believe in and value their fidelity and some don’t. It seems like it’s about 50% of the population value and believe in fidelity and 50% don’t.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

I think more than 50% believe in fidelity - it's the other 75% I worry about.


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## cj9947 (Jul 9, 2011)

morituri said:


> The thing that makes it possible for an affair to occur is the gradual crossing of marital boundaries - i.e. discussing marital issues with another member of the opposite sex, spending excessive time alone with a member of the opposite sex, excessive non-business related communication with a member of the opposite sex, partying without ones spouse and engaging in alcohol consumption with members of the opposite sex, close friendship with unfaithful spouses, etc.


You have done an amazing job covering all the steps my WW and her OM took down the path to adultery.


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## cj9947 (Jul 9, 2011)

Alivinghell said:


> CJ, I feel like you are in my head. As for smashed masculinity, this doesn't just apply to men. I am female and feel the same way because my husband did things with her he never did with me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ditto...I really do feel like you guys are all in my head and heart. This is where I come for rational discussions. Discussions with my WW, to date, leave me Bizzaro Land.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

It -guy, 

You know so well how it feels...


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## it-guy (Jan 6, 2011)

CJ,

I do not disagree with you. I do agree that on some level I am predisposed to feel bad because of my wife’s affair. I have seen many friends relationships end because of it. So, I already expected the worst to happen when it was my turn.

But at the same time I was not at all prepared for the mental anguish I would undergo. I expected to be angry. I expected that my marriage would end because I would be angry with my wife. I never considered or had a clue of what true pain can do to your mind. 

In an instant, everything I ever thought I knew about infidelity changed. I was immediately thrown into such a state of pure shock and hurt, that my entire world simply stopped. I was not angry…..I was not angry with my wife. I was not angry with the OM. I was not angry with anyone. I was just…..nothing.

We all know the stages that follow, and yes you may get angry at some point, but that emotion is way down on the hierarchy of emotions.

For me, I believe the way I love my wife made me feel this way. If I had not loved her, I think this would have all been much more simple emotions. A simple emotion like anger and a simple response to anger may have been all that happened.

Indeed we are all pretty much the same because we are people. But we all have different feelings for our spouses and different tolerance for pain. Those who do not truly love their spouse, or just don’t want to put up with the pain probably take the easy way out. 

And I do not want to offend anyone by saying that. Everyone has their own choice in how to handle their specific situation. And whatever choice you make for yourself is the correct choice.


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## cj9947 (Jul 9, 2011)

it-guy said:


> CJ,
> 
> I do not disagree with you. I do agree that on some level I am predisposed to feel bad because of my wife’s affair. I have seen many friends relationships end because of it. So, I already expected the worst to happen when it was my turn.
> 
> ...


Well said...


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

it-guy said:


> CJ,
> In an instant, everything I ever thought I knew about infidelity changed. I was immediately thrown into such a state of pure shock and hurt, that my entire world simply stopped. I was not angry…..I was not angry with my wife. I was not angry with the OM. I was not angry with anyone. I was just…..nothing.
> 
> For me, I believe the way I love my wife made me feel this way. If I had not loved her, I think this would have all been much more simple emotions. A simple emotion like anger and a simple response to anger may have been all that happened.


My H thought all I'd feel was anger, then boot him to the curb. He didn't realize how much this would hurt me or how much I loved him. Honestly, neither did I. I knew I loved and trusted him, but never imagined a betrayal like this could be so completely devastating.

My reaction and willingness to try R showed my H how much I do love him, but now he's made it so much more difficult to prove his love to me. It's like he finally has what he always wanted, to be loved so much by someone he won't be abandoned (divorced parents-long story). But, to finally realize I'm that person, he created the one situation in which he could possibly loose me.

Isn't that the very definition of a self fulfilling prophecy?


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## Looking to heal (Jun 15, 2011)

It is an emotionally confusing experience. I liken it to the relationship I had with my mom which was terrible.

The person who is supposed to love you the most has hurt you the most.

To be angry and think they are terrible doesn't seem possible because in a way, it's like saying you are terrible. 

Afterall, you chose this person, you gave your heart and soul to them.

At some level, you have to believe in the good in them and see them in a positive light in order to believe in the good in yourself.

What they did was terrible but you have to believe they are not terrible unless you want to blow everything up and walk away which I believe (as someone above said) is much easier emotionally than trying to work through the betrayal.


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## Looking to heal (Jun 15, 2011)

I don't think the population is split into those who believe in fidelity and those who don't.

I think there are many people who analyze infidelity from a cost benefit standpoint and decide that the risks outweigh the benefits and it is never a question of some ultimate virtue or value they hold dear.

What changes over time might be more perceived risks and perceived benefits depending on circumstances.

There are probably some people who do believe in fidelity under all circumstances and it is an element of their core values but I would estimate the percentage of the population who falls in to this catergory is more like 5 - 10 %

Maybe I'm just too cynical...


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## dd080510 (Jul 27, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> He brought himself to that boundary, and crossed it, FOR A REASON. Remember what I said about men. It's not the same. The needs part was referring to women. For men, it's about the physical stuff, most of the time. It's innate in us to procreate. If you think he got in touch with that ex GF and didn't think about her in that way you are in denial.



Gabriel: I totally admit that he crossed a line.. and even if he didn't think it was harmful at the time, he did it. But I just wanted to bring up the fact that there's not something necessarily missing at home for them to continue crossing that line. He did cross it, before she even approached him. In my opinion, some men are just pigs and my husband, unfortunately, is one of them. He wanted it all.. sex from me (which he was getting on a very regular basis) and her offer for oral. I don't think anything could have been going better in our marriage at the time and I stand by my thought that he did cross the line to escape what was going on in his life with his mom, not necessarily a crappy marriage. So although you are right on so many levels, please realize that in some cheating stories, it's not always about a pre-existing issue in the marriage. It could have to do with so many other things like others brought up here or a current tragedy outside the marriage. Thank you for your thoughts.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

I'm sorry this has happened to you DD. For men, the marriage could be perfectly fine. That's not what I'm saying at all. It's not your fault he did that. Men see other women (who they find attractive) has an opportunity to spread seed, scientifically. His job was to curb that urge with this ex GF of his. He failed. That's all I am saying. For men, it's less about needs not being met in the marriage. You could give him all the sex he seemingly wants, but the prospect of getting it on with another woman will always tempt the male. It's how we are wired. Our job is to withstand those urges once we commit to be monogamous.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

I have to disagree with the idea with "walking away is the easy route" Oh please, don't fall into that trap of mind thinking! It is all subjective to your own situation. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones!!!

I agree most of us had absolutely no clue what a ride infidelity would be...some of us neither, have a clue if staying or leaving is the easier route to go. Don't become judgmental, because leaving as well as staying will have their own paths and baggage to carry. Which sadly, neither path is going to be easy or hard. 

~sammy


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## it-guy (Jan 6, 2011)

sammy3 said:


> I have to disagree with the idea with "walking away is the easy route" Oh please, don't fall into that trap of mind thinking! It is all subjective to your own situation. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones!!!
> 
> I agree most of us had absolutely no clue what a ride infidelity would be...some of us neither, have a clue if staying or leaving is the easier route to go. Don't become judgmental, because leaving as well as staying will have their own paths and baggage to carry. Which sadly, neither path is going to be easy or hard.
> 
> ~sammy



I can see your point. It would not be easy to leave, and I would probably have had regrets for doing that for the rest of my life. Yes......different baggage indeed, but baggage none the less.

But, i bet it would be easier for me to just get mad and blame it all on her vs. having to deal with some of this.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

or leaving...

~sammy


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## it-guy (Jan 6, 2011)

Well if I had gotten mad at her and blamed it all on her I'b bet one of us would have left.

But, I love her, and I will fight for her unless I lose all faith in her, or it becomes too harmful for me to stay (even mentally harmful counts)


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

And please don't ever believe if you leave, you took the easy way out!

~sammy


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## cj9947 (Jul 9, 2011)

sammy3 said:


> And please don't ever believe if you leave, you took the easy way out!
> 
> ~sammy


So true...it really is a lose-lose situation.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

Excellent thread. I wish there were more like it on here. It's never wise to trust completely any human relationship, we're all flawed.


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## underwater2010 (Jun 27, 2012)

I refuse to place the blame on any type of myth about love that is out there. The simple facts are that my husband and I both took vows and chose to be in a monogamous relationship. We had also discussed leaving the marriage if you wanted something or someone else. The pain of the affair comes from disrespect and lying, not because Disney told me I should live happily ever after.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

underwater2010 said:


> I refuse to place the blame on any type of myth about love that is out there. The simple facts are that my husband and I both took vows and chose to be in a monogamous relationship. We had also discussed leaving the marriage if you wanted something or someone else. The pain of the affair comes from disrespect and lying, not because Disney told me I should live happily ever after.


Yes, exactly.

No one has to listen to the media myths, no one has to marry either if they feel that monogamy is not possible for them. 

That's one thing that irks me. My STBEH had all sorts of fake reasons for cheating that he told me, but one rang true. 

He finally admitted that he had a sense of male entitlement to have an affair. He felt it was his right. 

I think that is the bottom line. He was selfish and self absorbed. 

And now all of a sudden he wants to stay married and professes undying love and the ability to remain faithful until death do us part. 

Yeah right. That's a myth he is telling himself, not a media myth.


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## Son of Kong (Jul 12, 2012)

cj9947 said:


> But my wife decides to deceive me and do what we all know goes on in the world and I lose it. I seem to be my own worst enemy in my emotions and attitudes about the reality of what has happened. I have punished myself over someone else s behavior. It seems a bit irrational.


Perhaps in a world that is full of many bad things and people, when we find that person we want to be with, the one that shares our views, morals, the person we give all of our love, trust and devotion completely abandon us and treat us just like we are nothing we lose that last bit of innocence we have.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

I totally agree, Kong. We think that we can find an oasis in this rotten world. It's a world full of imperfect people being bombarded with temptation from every angle. There's the prevalent attitude that if something gets uncomfortable or isn't making us as happy as we think we deserve to be (like marriage) it can just be discarded for something else, regardless of the devastation it causes.

I've decided that as far as people go, I can trust my Mother and brothers 100% and my 3 children 99%. I have some very loyal male friends that I trust quite a bit, but there certainly isn't the emotional investment in those friendships that there is in marriage.

I have come to value those relationships like never before since my wife left me. If there's a benefit to all I've been through, it's these people have become even more precious to me. I think the reason why my wife's cheating devastaed me so badly is because I looked to her for to provide too much of my happiness. I'm now working on being more self-reliant emotionally, and being more responsible for my own fulfillment and happiness before I ever entertain the thought of dating again.

Hopefully I can have a healthier relationship, and now that I know how important a persons' past history is, family history especially, and also personality traits to watch out for, I can make a better choice as to who I tie my wagon to. Hope I didn't go too far off the thread here, I apologize if I did.


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## Son of Kong (Jul 12, 2012)

maincourse99 said:


> I totally agree, Kong. We think that we can find an oasis in this rotten world. It's a world full of imperfect people being bombarded with temptation from every angle. There's the prevalent attitude that if something gets uncomfortable or isn't making us as happy as we think we deserve to be (like marriage) it can just be discarded for something else, regardless of the devastation it causes.
> 
> I've decided that as far as people go, I can trust my Mother and brothers 100% and my 3 children 99%. I have some very loyal male friends that I trust quite a bit, but there certainly isn't the emotional investment in those friendships that there is in marriage.
> 
> ...


I feel the same, I have also made it a point of getting rid of anyone in my life who doesn't treat me with the upmost love and respect (friends, family doesn't matter) Why should I have anyone around me who doesn't feel the same, life is too short and too hard to have those around you make it worse. My wife is on that list as well, we are hopefully working on treating each other with love and respect in all that we do.


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## Tony55 (Jun 8, 2012)

I'll give you 100 social myths and hit your thumb with a hammer and it'll hurt the same no matter which myth you bought into.

Your heart was pounded with a hammer; it hurts the same regardless of what myth you bought into.


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## jay80_98 (Jul 14, 2012)

I've been banned on this website before trying elaborate your sentiment cause after years of struggling over this i've realized we ourselves are responsible for our mental and emotional well being and we give the key to another. I was ridiculed for suggesting that those betrayed have open passes to go out and test the waters not to get back at their spouses but to understand you are worth it and every person is diff and is a diff experience and it re establishes our sense of self. That being said the big mistake betrayed spouses do is to build the marriage than first rebuild themselves. Society is diff today


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

cj9947 said:


> Is it our mythologies and egos that make infidelity so painful?


Neither, it's biology. You need a strong reaction to it in order to override the affection you have for the cheater and make yourself do something about it.


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## 30yrsago (Oct 2, 2012)

Costa,

So correct, lets take you back to cave days, there is no pain.

You would have killed the OM, maybe even spouse.

Based on today pain we have come along way in evolution.

The pain we keep post A is of our making.

One can simply leave and end it, its a personal choice to do anything post A discovery.

Alot of great posts in this thread.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

30yrsago said:


> Costa,
> 
> So correct, lets take you back to cave days, there is no pain.
> 
> You would have killed the OM, maybe even spouse.


Who told you have to go back to the cave days in order for that to happen? Plenty of people still do it in our technological age...

The "pain" is just a way for your brain to give you the surge you need to keep yourself in the reproduction game. People who don't mind being cheated on are at a biological disadvantage. This is why we are jealous. 



> Based on today pain we have come along way in evolution.


No we really didn't. What we have is a set of laws that punish the betrayed spouse if he/she allows his primal urges to take over and physically harm the POS who is messing with the spouse. 

If you removed laws to protect cheaters and their affair partners i assure you related killings would be rampant, just like they are in societies who still support that kind of thing.

A few hundred years of laws isn't enough to make a dent on a deeply ingrained biological mechanism.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> *It's the betrayal *that makes it so painful. *The lying,* *the deception *that makes you question your entire relationship and your partner.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*Jellybeans* hit the nail squarely on the head in only the second post of this thread.

In our Christian-Judeo culture, we have come to largely be a monogamous people. Even the religious as well as the civil wedding vows employ that language. And, in addition to the above, *it is the breaking of and the blatant disregard for what those mutual vows say that make the act of infidelity even more painful still!*


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