# Feeling lost and confused...



## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

IF I’m right about things…

IF I’m right, my wife has had two EAs – both were over many, many months ago and there was never anything more physical than a kiss.

IF I’m right, my wife has done a lot of texting, chatting, e-mailing, and talking on the phone with several other men after the EAs were over. I suspect she was at best being a major flirt and enjoying the attention. At worst she may have been having phone/chat/text sex. I don’t know and my “gut” goes back and forth.

IF I’m right, and this is the worst of it, I could work through it IF she would be willing to work alongside me.

IF I’m right about things, this isn’t about me. She became “sick and disabled” after finishing nursing school. I believe that I was there for her, and always have been. It’s possible that I wasn’t there the way she wanted me to be, but I was not absent or unattentive. 

IF I’m right – its not about me, but its about her struggles to find happiness after being dealt a bad deal with her health. I see her pushing herself away from her own young children, her family and her old friends. She now gravitates towards single women for friends. If she was only pushing away from me, then I’d take it more personally.

IF I’m right, her self-esteem is at an all-time low and she’s doing all she can to make herself feel better NOW with the least amount of effort.

I feel bad because when I could have been fighting for our marriage, I was largely just chasing my own tail. Problem is, now that I feel a bit stronger and can better see through her bull**** and understand how this stupid game is to be played, I want less and less to do with her.

She WANTS me to want to be with her. She is becoming angry with me because I’m becoming apathetic. And her anger truly is driving me further away.

IF I pulled out the stops and tried to sweep her off of her feet, it just might work.

Where I’m really struggling – I could possibly save my marriage, but I’m no longer sure that doing so is in the best interest of myself and my children.

IF I’m right – and I really could save my marriage through a barrage of romantic Shock and Awe – my wife still has little interest in being a mother, or working on herself to proactively improve herself. 

So – IF I’m right, even sweeping her off her feet is only a temporary solution to a set of issues that I believe she ultimately has to grow up and face.

What am I missing?

Is it Ok to give up?


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## lbell629 (May 10, 2010)

I'm not a big proponent of giving up. And I can see how you would want to and what you are feeling is normal. I would suggest that the two of you go and see a marriage counselor. This will help you guys get through to matters of the heart and not just temporary solutions. And if she won't go, go by yourself. It also sounds like she needs individual counseling, but that will probably come out during the marriage counseling. Hang in there and keep putting one foot in front of another. You'll get through this. It's going to be tough and hard, but keep plugging away at it.


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## Susan2010 (Apr 19, 2010)

Of course it's okay to give up, so long as you stop blaming your wife for wanting to. If you want to give up then give up, but you don't have to convince yourself or us that she is the reason. You have been given advice and have seen many, many threads where advice was given. If you don't want to take any of the advice and try to work on your marriage, that is up to you. No one sits in your judge's seat. But admit you don't want to do the work or admit to whatever your true reasons are. Don't say it is your wife's fault.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

But what if the wayward spouse is not even willing to lift a finger and us betrayed spouses try to move the planet on the other hand? My husband does not even call during the day to ask how his son is let alone truly address the problems in our marriage that have led to his affair that he still calls "alleged affair" after 3 months since it was discovered and enough evidence to wallpaper the room he is sleeping in.

Sure I would like the evil twin to go away, I have tried counselling, tried talking to him, writing to him and now I just started living my own life, working on myself as much as I can with a 18 month old in tow. Right now I don't even know if he has reached the point of no return.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

S2010,
I am not sure I understand your post. NG has patiently and persistently waited for his wife to ADMIT THE EA'S, promise to stop that behavior in the future and ask for his forgiveness. 

Her refusal to admit and apologize are totally consistent with her mindset that she should be able to do what she wants to do. 

THAT mindset is not his to change. It is hers. Even AFTER she moved out - one night she "talked on her cell phone to some guy from 9 PM until 3 AM" ignoring calls from NG - he was simply calling to say goodnight. This level of have your cake and eat it behavior is something he cannot fix. 

In fact I think she wants him to be more in love with her so she can continue to stay in control of what happens. Meaning if he is "in love" and she is not so attached to him, she has a HUGE advantage with regard to how they interact. 

I am just surprised he has not nailed down a specific timeframe for cutting off her cushy living situation. She has all the authority of an adult with the minimal responsibilities of a child. Great life if you can pull it off. So far she has. 



Susan2010 said:


> Of course it's okay to give up, so long as you stop blaming your wife for wanting to. If you want to give up then give up, but you don't have to convince yourself or us that she is the reason. You have been given advice and have seen many, many threads where advice was given. If you don't want to take any of the advice and try to work on your marriage, that is up to you. No one sits in your judge's seat. But admit you don't want to do the work or admit to whatever your true reasons are. Don't say it is your wife's fault.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Susan - The piece of advice that I have most consistently ignored is to demand 100% transparency. We are in marriage counseling. When this topic comes up, the counselor has said that my wife is still entitled to a certain level of privacy. During a session my wife missed (found out later she was out until 3am the night before), the therapist said that pushing my wife for passwords would be pointless. She's stubborn, angry with the world, and already sees me as some bossy authority figure who is unfairly judging her. She claims I'm no fun and too "parental."

My wife continues to spend large amounts of unexplained time on her laptop and cell phone, even during the limited times that we are together. When I ask her - sometimes patiently, sometimes aggravated - what she's doing, she almost always says she's looking at facebook. I'm on Facebook - and it isn't that fascinating.

Our children, ages 7 and 10, continue to complain that all Mom does during the day while I'm at work is to nap, watch TV and play on her phone and computer. I've been shocked in her lack of "give a damn" when it comes to living away from our kids. When we agreed to separate there was never any real question as to who would stay, who would go, and who the kids would spend most of their time with. Even when they were in school, most days she was ready to leave after spending only a few hours of alone time with them. Most nights - if she stays around - she basically stays in the bedroom and little interaction with the family.

My wife continues to go out once or twice per week - late at night with single girlfriends - usually to a bar that is just down the street from her apartment. She's honest with me about going and I believe her when she tells me who she's with. But this isn't the marriage that I signed up for. I have trouble believing that she's just "hanging out". I don't think she's bringing guys home, but I'm sure she's enjoying some attention.

We spent the night together last night - just sleeping. Our oldest daughter is going to camp on Sunday, so we are all spending some time together. As she was laying in my arms last night, she was basically giving me an ultimatum to let her go if I no longer "desired" her. This morning she was angry that I didn't come on to her last night and complained that - even though we are separated - she can't go two weeks without sex. I still find her physically attractive, but I am not attracted to this person she's become.

I miss the woman I married. The one who enjoyed spending time with the kids. The one who used to frequently go to antique stores with her grandmother when she had free time. The one who used to stay out late once a month - scrap booking with married girlfriends in a friends' basement.

My mother had major health and depression issues. Our house wasn't immaculate and she never had a career. BUT she was there for me and my father in a way that I don't see my wife being there for me and the kids. She was rarely grouchy or irritable despite having to deal with whatever she was struggling with.

MEM - I've set the deadlines in my own head before. I have another in my head right now. But they come and go. I keep thinking the aliens will return my real wife again sometime soon. In some ways - yes - she has it made. But also becoming sick after finishing school was very hard on her. I'm not making excuses - she's had time to recover and done very little to make the best of things. At times she seems like a frightened child and I even feel a little sorry for her.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Niceguy~

I can empathize a small bit with your wife. My Dear Hubby has Chronic Fatigue and I have (very managed) arthritis, but one of my more major reasons for my EA was that with the CFS I do all of the "earning" for the family, and chip in a LOT for the housework, and care for him when he's sick, and when he's sick he's not "in the mood," and kids were growing up and moving out, and I was getting older and grayer ... but I wasn't dead yet! Yeah, typical mid-life crisis self-centered thinking but still it was part of the mix. I didn't marry so I could be a nanny, a maid or a nurse! 

Anyway, the difference I think is that when my Dear Hubby stood up for the marriage but didn't treat me meanly, I could see that chasing after that "younger life" and trying to act as if I was young a) would not make me young and b) was not where I would ultimately find either love or happiness. 

Right now, your wife was hit with a major life-changing diagnosis and her response to it was "I don't care who I hurt I'm going to be young and party as if this isn't true" -and- she shows no signs of snapping out of it. I don't mean this mean, but if she got a diagnosis like this, went on a temporary "bender" and then began to show some signs of realizing it was a bad response to a bad thing that happened in her life...heck you may have some hope right now! But rather than stop and realize that destroying her marriage and family will not FIX her...she's determined in her heart to continue no matter what the cost (to herself or those she loves). And I think that's where your lack of hope comes from--she is not seeing it, not getting it, and not coming out of it. 

Niceguy, in real life, it is reasonable to show your spouse your email and your facebook and your cell phone. They are the most intimate person in your life, they know you and love you (inspite of yourself ) and in most marriages you SHARE yourself, your friends and your life with your spouse. The counselor is doing THE MARRIAGE a disservice by supporting your wife's secrecy, because as long as that style of secrecy goes on, it will eventually erode and destroy THE MARRIAGE. Now, your wife may "think" or "claim" she need that right now to come to grips with her diagnosis--but make no mistake. Your "marriage" counselor is not expertly trained in infidelity and the brain chemistry of "love"--and what your wife is doing is protecting her addition to that affair-zing: the natural amphetamine and pleasure chemicals that she gets from secretive attention from other men. So as long as THAT continues--your marriage will never, ever progress or improve or rebuild. 

SOOOOOOOOO...you are at a stand still. She will not stop her affair-zing because she's addicted to that good feeling; you seem like a codger old "parent" to her because you don't give her that affair-zing feeling; and the "marriage" counselor won't tell her she needs to give up her addiction--and meanwhile your marriage will not recover (nor will your wife) if she doesn't give it up. 

I have to admit, in this one instance I would advise to pick a deadline sooner than later, and stand by it. It's going to hurt and be hard, but at minimum she needs a PLAN B-CONSEQUENCES kind of step and at maximum probably a Legal Separation. And nothing personal, but more and more and more I hear your love for her being extinguished to the point that I'm really not sure if you have any left. Go to PLAN B-CONSEQUENCES *before* all your love for her is gone.


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## cody5 (Sep 2, 2009)

Hey trip 7's. I thought we've discussed this to death. She's gone, She's gooooo-on and nothins' gonna' bring her back.

She's gone.

Wifes don't come back from this kind of thing. Don't get taken in when she reminices about the stability of the good old days.

And at least you're starting to look at the possibility that the bar-hopping isn't just a couple of girls out to chat.

Let her go. Easy for me to say, I know, but let her go. And DON'T feel a BIT guilty for it. She wants to be single AND married. More of the former, I fear.

(Anybody catch the Grateful Dead reference in this post?)


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> (Anybody catch the Grateful Dead reference in this post?)


GD? I see no GD!!!!! heh heh


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Nope...didn't see it. (heh heh...click on the image)


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Wife spent the night here both nights over the weekend. We were preparing to take our 10 year old to summer camp. She spent most of the time in the bedroom, away from everybody else.

She commented a few times about wanting to come back home - how unhappy she was in the apartment. Even cried at one point about how lonely she is, which has been very rare. But as soon as we got back from dropping our D off today, she needed to go to the apartment to get some rest or something. Its been 5 hours and haven't heard from her again.

Even without the EAs and other guys - its just sooo confusing - she says she wants to be here, but then acts like she can't wait to leave when she's around.

So does plan B still apply given the following:
1) EAs are over
2) Secrecy with phone and PC - but I've got no "proof" of anything going on right now
3) Late nights out with single girlfriends
4) Says she wants to come home, but doesn't seem to enjoy spending time with me or the kids
5) Says she needs more Passion from me and to know that she's Desired; her number one need from me seems to be sex (and continued financial support, but that goes unspoken); and I AM physically attracted - just not EMOTIONALLY attracted; 

The sex thing - I understand why she would possibly increase her drive to cover up an affair IF she was still at home; BUT she has her own place now, so that doesn't seem to fit; I would also like to think that its a good sign she isn't getting sex elsewhere; but I think that something is keeping her engine revved up higher than it has been in a long time (flirting, attention, etc.)

I mean - is it actually "Infidelity" IF the worst thing she is doing is heavy flirting, but still coming to me to for the real thing?

I really, truly hate this confusing ****.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

NG,
The sad thing is that when statements and actions are chronically and completely out of synch you have to watch the actions and ignore the statements.

She seems to want the level of familial interaction that say a grandmother would - frequent visits - but not substantial daily interaction.

You know the difference between privacy and secrecy. Her behavior is flat out secretive and she is adamant about maintaining that level of secrecy. Adamant and aggressive. This is not right and not respectful. 

I do understand that illness can mess with your head. I have had that problem myself - but she has plenty of energy to go out drinking with single girls. Something doesn't sound right. 

It is great that she has some sexual desire for you. 

Major props to you for running the show with your big head and not your little head. She isn't being kind, considerate or honest with you. She has never apologized for the EA's. It really is ok for you to withdraw emotionally and frankly if you are anything like me - you can't withdraw as well if you continue having sex. 

I think you would do well to tell her that she would be welcome to move home IF:
- rule 1 
- rule 2
- rule 3

Sorry if this makes you sound like a parent. Guess what I am 47 and have a killer job. From a purely transactional standpoint I could leave my marriage, buy a very nice bachelor pad and start banging much younger women with no strings. 

Instead I willingly, nay happily, stay in a house with a wife and 2 kids and a long list of unspoken rules all of which are fair and all of which are symmetrical. Golden rule variants. And I do not feel SHACKLED at all. You are not asking anything from your wife that you wouldn't gladly provide her in reverse. 

And yet she is going to become angry and resentful that you are trying to CONTROL her. Guess what - you wouldn't have to control anything if she simply behaved like a grownup. My guess is that if you give her a short timetable for a reduction in her financial support and let her know she needs to AT least get a part time job, you will start moving your marriage towards either healing or ending. 



nice777guy said:


> Wife spent the night here both nights over the weekend. We were preparing to take our 10 year old to summer camp. She spent most of the time in the bedroom, away from everybody else.
> 
> She commented a few times about wanting to come back home - how unhappy she was in the apartment. Even cried at one point about how lonely she is, which has been very rare. But as soon as we got back from dropping our D off today, she needed to go to the apartment to get some rest or something. Its been 5 hours and haven't heard from her again.
> 
> ...


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Thanks MEM.

Just to be clear, she has apologized, sincerely, a few times. She just doesn't seem to be consistently sorry. When I point out how I see going out late to bars as being the same type of "unfaithful" behavior as the EAs, she'll respond by saying that the EAs have been over for months and that she's tired of hearing about them. In fact, she wants credit for the fact that she's no longer texting or calling other guys. So to me, the apologies, even when sincere, don't seem to "stick."

And I have to admit that I have no desire to be Big Brother and have random "inspections" of her phone and computer. Seems to me like if you get to that point and the Wayward spouse isn't 100% on board, there will be too much resentment, secrets will get buried deeper, and it won't truly fix anything. I think maybe that is what my therapist is trying to get at when she says that demanding passwords "right now" would not be effective.

I'm guessing your unspoken rules at home work at least in part because you and your wife both want to be together. I'm guessing that a set of direct rules would just put my marriage to rest a bit sooner.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

And before trying Plan B, should I go back and really try to "work" Plan A?


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

Yes. There is withdrawal. You need to "review your materials". Remember when you were in school. You were given a homework assignment. You did it and turned it in the next day. You called that studying. It was not. It was doing homework. You are reading adn writing, but you are not studying. I suggest you really study. When you were learning French, didn't you have to memorize the language. You need to memorize the rules. Write them out. Check what AC, Tan and Turn have said. Memorize!! You keep forgetting how this goes. They follow the script. 
This is an addiction. Even if she is NC there is withdrawal and potential relapse. Rollercoaster!


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

And forgive me if I've already asked this above, but do I still fit into this "Infedility", Plan A/B bucket if the EAs have been over for months and I'm mainly just dealing with strong suspicions that I think she is mostly chatting with men online - that she may or may not know - and going out for drinks with a new set of friends?

Flirting isn't exactly Infidelity. I can't really expose an "affair", just that my wife goes out and stays out late and spends a lot of time on her phone and laptop without explanation.


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## cody5 (Sep 2, 2009)

nice777guy said:


> In fact, she wants credit for the fact that she's no longer texting or calling other guys.


Uh...yeah.

The only thing I see her wanting out of this relationship is the feeling the stability of her marriage while she goes out and parties. My boy Jerry Garcia was wrong (postumously, of course) in one sense: Something will bring her back, all right. Give her the stability of marriage, a bedroom, 3 squares a day, her kids to hug and love when she wants, regular sex, AND permission to act single any time she wants. There you go. Problem solved.

Is the clubbing the same as the texting? Worse? I don't know. She got caught up in a couple of inappropriate emotional relationships. She ended them. But again: what's she doing out twice a week 'till 3:00? Is she meeting guys? Guy friends? Casual flirting? Is it even POSSIBLE for a couple of single girls to go out THAT MUCH together without that being a HUGE part of it? Is her seeking attention from men RIGHT NOW better than a couple of old emotional affairs? 

Is her willingness to do ZERO to make it better in any way acceptable?


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Cody - you ask a lot of hypothetical questions below - the same ones I'm trying to grasp.

Does "going out" count as infidelity?

I know I don't want to stay married like this - but do Plan A & B and normal "affair" rules apply here? Or do I just have a ****ty marriage and a highly inconsiderate jerk of a wife?



cody5 said:


> Uh...yeah.
> 
> The only thing I see her wanting out of this relationship is the feeling the stability of her marriage while she goes out and parties. My boy Jerry Garcia was wrong (postumously, of course) in one sense: Something will bring her back, all right. Give her the stability of marriage, a bedroom, 3 squares a day, her kids to hug and love when she wants, regular sex, AND permission to act single any time she wants. There you go. Problem solved.
> 
> ...


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## cody5 (Sep 2, 2009)

nice777guy said:


> Flirting isn't exactly Infidelity. I can't really expose an "affair", just that my wife goes out and stays out late and spends a lot of time on her phone and laptop without explanation.


Sorry to double post, but I saw this after I posted the above.

No, flirting isn't exactly infidelity. 

Going to bars until closing twice or more a week with the intention of receiving and giving inappropriate attention to men IS exactly infidelity. (even WITHOUT spending as lot of time on her phone and laptop without explanation).

I wish a large part of support forums like this wasn't predicated on anonymity. I'd love to go out to a few bars with you, trip 7's. We could see how the women act and work on BOTH our problems.


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

It would be recommended that you find out what is going on inthe bars. No more guessing. One of my relatives just did the old show up and find out. He found out. You can spend a couple $$ on a PI or send a friend if you want. They can capture some video too.


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## cody5 (Sep 2, 2009)

iamnottheonlyone said:


> It would be recommended that you find out what is going on inthe bars. No more guessing.


Maybe he'll listen to you.


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

remember my situation niceguy, the not knowing was very, very hard even more difficult than what I am going through now. Trust your gut feeling.


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## cody5 (Sep 2, 2009)

iamnottheonlyone said:


> One of my relatives just did the old show up and find out. He found out.


Sorry to hijack the thread, but just out of curiosity, what did he see? Nightclub infidelity is kind of my hobby, for unfortunate reasons.


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## Runawaytrain (Jun 7, 2010)

Let me give you a wife's perspective. I've been married to my husband for 5 years now. For 3 of those years, I was a stay at home mom. I never went out. I never wanted to. I took care of our house and our children and my husband. My husband on the other hand went out all the time. He would go out after work with employees. He woud come home late. Sometimes after 3 am. He works as a restaurant manager, so he was going out with servers, bartenders, etc. This going out has been something that he has being doing our entire marriage. I've always trusted my husband. I never suspected that anything "bad" was going on. I just hated it because I felt like I never saw him, but I passed it off as he works so hard, he should get some time out. It never occured to me what was going on at these bars. I was very naive. 

So about 8 months ago, we were short on money.. so I got a job as a waitress for extra money. I'm 30 years old, I have a college degree. I had a hard time accepting this. I was suddenly thrown into this crazy scene. Everyone went out after work. I'm an attractive girl. I don't look my age and I don't really act my age either, so my co workers were always trying to get me to go out. So finally I caved. I went out. My husband did it all the time. Why not right. Wow. He was so upset when I started going out. I know why now. I was staying out late. Sometimes I didn't come home until 4 am. I never cheated on my H, but I got lots of attention. I flirted. I enjoyed the attention. I had a crush on one of my co workers. He was a lot younger and very handsome. I would get very drunk and he would bring me home. In a way, we had an emotional affair. I thought about him a lot. We texted, facebooked, flirted at work. I never did anything physical with him. 

I realized through all this that my husband was so upset about me going out all the sudden because he knew what happened at these bars. He had been cheating on me and flirting and carrying on with other women at these bars for a long time.

I don't think my H would of ever cheated on me if he had stayed away from the bars. He never should of gone out with his employees like that. 

What I'm really saying is that going to bars until 3 am is not condusive to a happy marriage. Your marriage will not work as long as she does this. Do not kid yourself. Nothing good is happening at those bars. You can count on the fact that the OM is there. I would bet money on that. Happily married people do not got to bars until 3 am without each other. Maybe once in a blue moon with girlfriends or whatever, but not once or twice a week. You should show up one night. Wait til she's been there for awhile and show up. Just tell her you wanted to hang out with her. She's your wife. You should be there with her. You know this. If she acts angry, awkward, or suddenly wants to leave. You can be sure there is another man there she likes.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Just showing up would be hard for me to do. She usually doesn't tell me before she goes, but will mention it the next day. And the kids are almost always with me.

I'm not asking if this behavior is "OK". Even if there isn't one special guy out there I'm sure she's getting plenty of attention from whoever shows up. Either way, it has to stop before we can end our separation.

My belief is that there isn't one special guy right now, but that she is looking for, and possibly addicted to, attention from men.

Also, for what little it might be worth right now, she's spent the 3 of the last 4 nights at home and I don't think she's been "out" for about a week and a half.

Wish I knew how to put a quote or link to/from another thread here. Mark Twain had posted something recently about not needing to spy when you've known someone for so long (15 years of marriage, 4 years of "courting" and 4 of being close friends). About being able to feel the "pulse" of the relationship. And I don't have a good feeling about things right now, no matter what she's showing me.

Even if I was able to suprise her at the bar and found no guys around her, I STILL wouldn't feel good about it.

And, even though she's been at the house much more recently, she's still spending way too much time on her laptop and iPhone.


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## cody5 (Sep 2, 2009)

Hey Trips. I don't know what Plan A is, so I'm staying away from your other thread. So I SPECIFICALLY don't know what your asking. We've all given you our responses. The laptop/cellphone thing is bad enough.

But is there ANYONE out there that thinks a wife could POSSIBLY be going out to bars until 3:00 in the morning multiple times A WEEK and have it NOT fall into AT LEAST the "way-inappropriate" category? And that's being kind. 

That's like saying I go to the Korean Massage Parlor/hand-job house twice a week purely to work out the kinks in my calf. She may work on the leg a little, but I always get a "full release" while I'm there.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Mr. Niceguy--I'm going to reply to you on your "Specific Question" thread, okay? Heading there now!


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Thanks AC!


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

When I met my wife I ran a popular bar in Boston. I had a lot of fun being single. My wife and I met there. I knew the dangers of that job so before we married I moved on to a profession. I should have recognized the even more dangerous profession of flight personnell in the airline business. When she got hired they should have given the spouse a handbook of how to avoid an affair. If they gave it out I didn't get it.


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