# Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvinism"



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

*Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvinism"*

On the heels of this thread in the Ladies section... this is the spelled out RANT against certain types of men... 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/188289-sick-being-dissected-rant-here-15.html (post #217) ....

When I read it.. I just felt this spelled out Male Chauvinistic behaviors - many of these...I do not for a minute believe the majority of men on TAM are geared this way... but true, some bad apples have a tendency to infect the bushel or so it appears from the outside at times..








attitudes.. 



> *Male Chauvinist definition *: a male who patronizes, disparages, or otherwise denigrates females in the belief that they are inferior to males and thus deserving of less than equal treatment or benefit.... who thinks women are merely objects to be used for pleasure, esthetic value or labour.


 Some of it (on her list) I had an issue with - if the man does not engage in the "double standard" himself and cares about a woman's sexual history because he expects similar behavior to his own... I feel he has every right to his preferences and this is not blight on his character...nor if he has a Traditional mindset and would prefer his wife to stay at home & raise the children, he just needs to choose a woman with similar beliefs who would enjoy this lifestyle...not a blight on his character... this speaks nothing of how he TREATS his woman... good & bad fall in any Lifestyle preference....I feel we can all agree on that... 

So from a MALE Perspective....what can we learn from you... just as we have our lists... men surely have theirs.. remember this is not about what you LIKE.. but what you *do NOT like*.. what turns you away....what internally may HURT you (if men can be HURT??)...in this delicate dance with the sexes...focusing on our attitudes, preferences, beliefs ...


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*

I recall a conversation I had with a (very) young lady.

Her aunt was in an abusive relationship. A very real, very abusive relationship. She was also in a place where is she left her husband, there would be very real repercussions socially and not just a trifle bit of awkwardness in dating as a single mother.

So, this girl, who distinctly had a dog in this fight, believed that any man who for any reason hit or was aggressive to a girl once was beyond the pale, a wife beater and should always be socially and legally ostracized. Because anyone who hit a woman, even once, was somehow psychologically determined to do it again and worse forever.

Now, let me be PERFECTLY CLEAR HERE.

*THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR ANY VIOLENCE AGAINST ANYONE WHICH DOESN'T INVOLVE SELF DEFENCE OR AN ACT OF CONGRESS*

Can you ladies read that? Do I need to make the font bigger?

That being said, there is a full spectrum of 'violence' which should have a SPECTRUM of punishments, not a single cookie cutter reaction. If there is a single act of never repeated violence by a man out of anger and frustration, that requires a far different reaction than a repeated serial beater. People make mistakes.

I mentioned to this lady that this 'zero tolerance' policy was unfair to men, and I can see why this is important to women for their protection, that maybe we could find a middle ground.

Her reaction was essentially 'Boo Hoo! You have ONE thing unfair to you. Being a woman is ALWAYS unfair. Suck it up, cupcake."

Well, to my mind, this did three things:

1) Women who think this way have lost all moral stature on this if they are happy to justify abusing men knowingly unfairly. Just because you are 'oppressed' doesn't make you immune to being wrong.

2) By making it a zero sum game, they should not be surprised if men are hesitant to join in their crusade...and looking at point one, by making this a 'fight' against men, they can't lay claim to 'fairness' anymore as a moral point.

and 

3) It raises the stakes in dealing with the opposite gender. Things are more confrontational and suspicious as a result.

I understand that chauvinism, like racism, is pernicious and hard to weed out. But it also isn't enshrined in law so much. Much of that apparatus has been removed.

Women seek to put into place zero tolerance legal policies and use their social networks to destroy male reputations. Now...sex offender directories are all well and good...but say my barely 18 year old son dates a 16 year old girl...and her parents are vindictive? He could be labeled unfairly forever because it's black letter law.

I get wanting to raise the price of these behaviors. I do. But occasionally I get the sense that there is some vindictiveness behind this.

And this isn't the vast bulk of women. It is the advocates who will not quit. And because they vast bulk of females see the downside for them, they are not so quick on the button to rein in their most spiteful members who are happy to make things as awful as possible to win a point.


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*

Her cheating would be the only way she could deeply hurt me, I mean long term stinging hurt. Everything else she does that either she or anyone else thinks would hurt me is temporary, I'm quite strong and never get butthurt


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*

Of course. But as men we hide our emotions a lot better. We are taught crying is for girls ( brainwashed actually). 
Yes, my wife has hurt me in the past but I can speak only for me when I say I am able to get over a hurt feeling a lot easier than her.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*

I'm tired of being seen as some sort of oppressor of the hopes and dreams of women just because I'm a man. Since when do I have control over someone else's goals and aspirations. Your hopes and dreams are _your_ responsibility. It ain't the fifties anymore. If you want something in life go get it. The only person stopping you is yourself.


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## Nynaeve (Jun 19, 2013)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



ReformedHubby said:


> I'm tired of being seen as some sort of oppressor of the hopes and dreams of women just because I'm a man. Since when do I have control over someone else's goals and aspirations. Your hopes and dreams are _your_ responsibility. It ain't the fifties anymore. If you want something in life go get it. The only person stopping you is yourself.


I don't think all men are oppressors. I don't think you are.

But when I got fired for being pregnant, I wasn't stopping myself. The man who fired me surely has some responsibility for his actions.

Just because you aren't in a position of power that would enable you to exert some control over another person's goals and aspirations, doesn't mean that no man anywhere is.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*

I know you mean well, SA, but in short order this thread will just become yet another mire of angry accusations by the same three or so women who air their insecurities about men in every post they make.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



Nynaeve said:


> I don't think all men are oppressors. I don't think you are.
> 
> But when I got fired for being pregnant, I wasn't stopping myself. The man who fired me surely has some responsibility for his actions.
> 
> *Just because you aren't in a position of power that would enable you to exert some control over another person's goals and aspirations, doesn't mean that no man anywhere is.*


Really?

Really, really really?

Listen.

I own a business and I just won a court matter against another company over a dispute about monies owed to me by that company which they REFUSED TO PAY ME .

It was a significant amount of money close to $100K.

My company provided that company with goods and services, and they broke their end of the contractural agreement to pay at the end of the contract.
I gave them EIGHT months to pay and they kept jerking me around.

The director in charge of the section of the company I dealt with decided to take out their personal vendetta against my company because I refused to deviate from specifications and conditions of the contract to please them.
They refused to sign off on the final payment, and kept delaying it for EIGHT MONTHS.

Well , when the company received letter from our lawyers all hell broke loose.
Needless to say , I won my case and SHE lost her job and benefits.

Yes , it was a vindictive WOMAN that discriminated against me.

Lol, but hey I'm sure she probably thinks that I am an " evil man " ,simply because I had the balls to stand up against her vindictiveness,fight my case and won with costs and interest to be paid , and made her loose her job.

" _Just because you aren't in a position of power that would enable you to exert some control over another person's goals and aspirations, doesn't mean that no_ *WOMAN* _anywhere is_..."

Evil knows no gender.


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## Nynaeve (Jun 19, 2013)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



Caribbean Man said:


> Really?
> 
> Really, really really?


Yes, really. 



> Evil knows no gender.


I never said it did.

Did you miss the part of my post where I said that I don't think all men are oppressors? :scratchhead:

My point was only that some people do have power over other people to thwart their success. 

It's not as simple as declaring that "The only person stopping you is yourself."


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## Convection (Apr 20, 2013)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



Caribbean Man said:


> Evil knows no gender.


Truth. Or race, religion, age, socioeconomic status, etc, etc, etc.

I guess it is just human nature to try to pigeon-hole other people by their demographic and draw a broader conclusion against the group. It sucks, but there it is.

Which is why I carry this coffee mug at work:










I wouldn't carry it if it said, "Women are idiots..." because it is just not accurate enough.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



MSP said:


> I know you mean well, SA, but in short order this thread will just become yet another mire of angry accusations by the same three or so women who air their insecurities about men in every post they make.


I was writing out a reply on that other thread and started going in the direction of, if this was turned around....I am sure men have some things that hurt them too...looking through their lenses....they probably ranted some on that thread even, I don't know.....

Stupid idea.... maybe....I think women are more sensitive in general ... so we take more things to heart..(we also need our GF's to spill our hurts to)...yet I still feel women have the power to hurt men....I have no doubt the average MAN keeps it in more , doesn't want to show that weakness (to anyone)....after all women worship confidence and he seems to have a tight rope of balancing this ALPHA / Beta before her, or it all goes to the crapper for him....

My H is not some stoic emotionless man...How I treat him, things I do, my attitude has it's destruction as well....

I will happily delete if one thinks that would be for the best. 

It's not like I disagree with the women.. I did a post on that thread describing 4 male Chauvinists I've seen in action...you know what... 3 out of 4 , the wives left them....and I say good for them! ... I think we all hurt ourselves (men or women) when we don't honor and treat each other right...


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



SimplyAmorous said:


> Stupid idea.... maybe....I think women are more sensitive in general ... I will happily delete if one thinks that would be for the best.


No, please post whatever you like. I am not asking for you to censor how you feel or what you write here. Definitely not. 

I guess I'm just tired and sick of the vitriol in some of the recent threads. I probably need a break from here again.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*

Well SA I believe I have touched on all of this before so let me condense it into a smaller package.

Professionally I have until recently worked in female dominated industries. By and large my best bosses have been women. The same could be said about their ability to lead. My worst boss hands down was a woman. Why was she the worst? Because it was so obvious she wanted to have a kickstand. I think she was bitter about it to be quite honest. She inherited me when my mentor left for another company. The first day I was introduced I looked in her eyes and thought "Oh no". In short she made my life a living hell. I think she planned the night before how she was going to sabotage me the next day. I had been a model employee (outstanding according to my reviews) for 9.5 years. I suggested to her I interview for other openings in the company and she encouraged me. I found out shortly thereafter, from a friend in HR, that she was calling those I was interviewing with and telling them I was incompetant (God I wish I knew then what I know now). I eventually had them pay me to go away but I found out I had been blacklisted in the industry that I was passionate about. If I saw her on the street today I would likely b!tch slap her and not blink. Did she hurt me? Absolutely! I was devastated.

Personally my W has hurt me deeply but I forgive her all the time. She gets a pass because I love her unconditionally. Does that mean that there would not be reprucussions? Certainly not physically. There seem to be plenty of men on this site who have been hurt by women. It does not have to be and EA or a PA. I have found , and noticed it here, that having the individual you have covenanted with take an indifferent attitude toward you, lie to you and put others needs ahead of yours to be devastating.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*

I am sure we all have INDIVIDUAL issues with the other gender.

However, male chauvinism is more of an 'institutionalized' cultural injury done to females.

So I think (though I may be wrong) is that SA may be looking for some other institutionalized 'injury' that females do to men.

I submitted zero tolerance policies regarding abuse.

One could talk about the meme widely spread by women that men are emotional, psychological and practical incompetents.

Or the buffoonery that is the male on television

Perhaps how every man is considered a rapist until proven otherwise (and you can never prove otherwise)

this is a bit hyperbolic in the list but it's a better discussion than 'She done me WRONG.'


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



Convection said:


> Truth. Or race, religion, age, socioeconomic status, etc, etc, etc.
> 
> I guess it is just human nature to try to pigeon-hole other people by their demographic and draw a broader conclusion against the group. It sucks, but there it is.
> 
> ...


Oh Convection - that's good...Now who would disagree with that [email protected]#$.... I think I am going to look for one of these on EBAY for my H !! He can take that to work for his coffee Mug...he is kinda a quiet guy there but that will get the message across...

He is very fond of saying nonchalantly "I hate people" ....just so much we see in the world, even in our own communities..anytime we hear of malicious/ ugly / spiteful vindictive behaviors.. it's just the reaction...



> *Caribbean man said:*
> I own a business and I just won a court matter against another company over a dispute about monies owed to me by that company which* they REFUSED TO PAY ME .*
> 
> It was a significant amount of money close to $100K.
> ...










CB your story almost sounds like the way my H's 1st Employers ran their Grocery Store... The Father started it... he ran it honorably...He died...his 2 sons took over...no scruples at all... refused to pay the Vendors on time...always trying to squeeze something for free out of people... basically until they were threatened...some quit dealing with them all together... 

My H was the Dairy Manager having to deal with these Vendors...at least he was well liked ...awkward situation as he was put in.... everyone just knew how his Bosses dealt...lower scale example here... but still....Some people just have no integrity..but they ran their business into the ground dealing that way... less & less merchandise was on the shelves...and less customers came to shop!....Bad business practices will always come back to bite....as a reputation gets ruined.

With that Business woman...It probably wouldn't have mattered you were a man...she could have treated Your wife that way... if she ran the company..ya know...


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*

Men , from boyhood are cultured not to complain.

Whether that is good or bad would always be debatable.

One thing for sure is that despite what some well intentioned people might think, it s very difficult to root out deeply embedded social constructs that has been blueprint of all relationships between the genders, for thousands of years.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



SimplyAmorous said:


> Some people just have no integrity..but they ran their business into the ground dealing that way... less & less merchandise was on the shelves...and less customers came to shop!....Bad business practices will always come back to bite....as a reputation gets ruined.
> 
> *With that Business woman...It probably wouldn't have mattered you were a man...she could have treated Your wife that way... if she ran the company..ya know...*


:iagree: exactly.

That's the point I was trying to make.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



Caribbean Man said:


> Men , from boyhood are cultured not to complain.
> 
> Whether that is good or bad would always be debatable.
> 
> One thing for sure is that despite what some well intentioned people might think, it s very difficult to root out deeply embedded social constructs that has been blueprint of all relationships between the genders, for thousands of years.


While I agree with the second part as self evidently true, I'd like to agree with the first part as well, however my wife could probably tell tales which would reduce the credibility of my agreement.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



Caribbean Man said:


> Men , from boyhood are cultured not to complain.
> 
> Whether that is good or bad would always be debatable.
> 
> One thing for sure is that despite what some well intentioned people might think, it s very difficult to root out deeply embedded social constructs that has been blueprint of all relationships between the genders, for thousands of years.


Suck it up. Do not cry. That is weak. Put yourself in harms way. Rub some dirt on it. Sacrifice. Do not complain. Endure, endure, endure. If anyone gets hurt it must be you. Protect and defend. Support. Your feelings are not the ones that matter. Never show weakness.

Some men are brought up to be completely self indulgent. Cruely at times they are the ones that get the early attention from women.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*

women who take advantage of her husband who works hard and gives his all so she can have the luxury to be a stay at home mom but acts like she is doing more then the man.

complains he doesn't help enough I have to get up and tend to the baby ......I'm tired and he just don't understand. I never get a minute to myself all I do is clean dishes wash cloths and go shopping on top of caring for a baby or small children. why can't he just do more! and then stop having sex and be vindictive any way possible.

now don't get me wrong I think the husband should help but I also think his efforts of driving to work for 45mins twice a day and giving all his pay for the family is worth just as much as a mom who stays at home and takes care of the kids and house is a pretty equal trade off.

these articles that suggest that stay at home moms are taken advantage of are pure bull. My mother say to this day it was the most rewarding job she ever had and always was glad she had the time to spend with her children and never complained about my father who worked in a steal mill and was most times to tired to really help out much. 

I know all my male friends have wives who work Its a luxury in today's world to be able to stay at home and be a mom. to be able to watch them grow and teach them raise them to be the people you want them to be instead of dropping them off at day care where a minimum wage worker who could give a rats a$$ about your kid spending more time with them than you do.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*

The Most Difficult Job On The Planet


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



chillymorn said:


> women who take advantage of her husband who works hard and gives his all so she can have the luxury to be a stay at home mom but acts like she is doing more then the man.
> 
> complains he doesn't help enough I have to get up and tend to the baby ......I'm tired and he just don't understand. I never get a minute to myself all I do is clean dishes wash cloths and go shopping on top of caring for a baby or small children. why can't he just do more! and then stop having sex and be vindictive any way possible.
> 
> *now don't get me wrong I think the husband should help but I also think his efforts of driving to work for 45mins twice a day and giving all his pay for the family is worth just as much as a mom who stays at home and takes care of the kids and house is a pretty equal trade off.*


 Speaking out of my own personal feelings on this...and I do feel strongly .....I feel my husband has it way harder over me..... sometimes he has to plow our 750 ft up-hill bendy driveway early in the morning just to get to work.. it can turn to ice overnight.... he has to brave freezing temperatures , sweltering heat -work in storms...he has the Boss from Hell & let's just say some difficult whiny co-workers , some like to sleep on the job.... then when things break around here (vehicles , house repairs).... he is the Mechanic & Handy Man too.... 

I am so thankful for all he does for our family.... We all appreciate DAD very very very much...

He and I had a deal early on.... he told me we could have as many kids as I wanted (Who says this!) so long as I took care of them (meaning not complaining how much work they are or expecting him to get up in the middle of the night / diapers, bottles etc..)...this man honored what he said.. and I honored my end as well.

I have very much enjoyed my role...and felt it *a privilege *to be in the home. 



> *My mother say to this day it was the most rewarding job she ever had and always was glad she had the time to spend with her children and never complained about my father who worked in a steal mill and was most times to tired to really help out much.*


 I resonate with your Mother .....I want to do all I can on the home front to make his life easier so he can relax when he gets home, so he has leisure to spend with ME (I can be a little greedy here )...and /or the kids/ their activities. We both need to carry our load...

It means so much when both parties recognize what the other brings ..this goes a long way.


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## over20 (Nov 15, 2013)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*

SA, your a gem to start this thread kudos to you!!


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



chillymorn said:


> women who take advantage of her husband who works hard and gives his all so she can have the luxury to be a stay at home mom but acts like she is doing more then the man.
> 
> complains he doesn't help enough I have to get up and tend to the baby ......I'm tired and he just don't understand. I never get a minute to myself all I do is clean dishes wash cloths and go shopping on top of caring for a baby or small children. why can't he just do more! and then stop having sex and be vindictive any way possible.
> 
> ...


When kids are young, to me, staying at home is exhausting and a job I would not want. 45mn driving each way is relaxing in comparison.

I totally understand a wife that expects her husband to help around the house when he comes home. Being around kids 27h/day is just much more tiring than salaried work.

I am thankful that my wife is willing to stay home and she is doing a great job.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



JCD said:


> The Most Difficult Job On The Planet


I just watched this... Seriously.. Some of the jobs men DO.. they risk their lives every day.... my H had 3 coal mining Uncles... his dad got out of it...he wanted to be above the ground....his one Uncle almost died in the mine.. it collapsed on him... he was there for days... I can't even begin to imagine what a job like that would be like.. 

I was glued to the TV yrs ago...when 9 were trapped at Quecreek.... I was so emotional about it... tears... Praying...thinking of what it would be like for those families.. .this not being too far away from where we live...

The Story of the Quecreek Mine Miracle Rescue

That had a GOOD ending.. but how many Do...Just fathoming the RISK some take every day to provide for their families...it's a great great sacrifice... if you have a man who works LIKE THIS..(how many come down with black lung -mentioned on that comedy skit too)....and he doesn't complain.. but treats his family with the utmost of care... there is just a "reverence" there...how do you not want to pamper him...

I would be a nervous wreck if my H was a coal miner, don't think I could handle it personally.. too much of a worrier here!


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



Duguesclin said:


> When kids are young, to me, staying at home is exhausting and a job I would not want. 45mn driving each way is relaxing in comparison.
> 
> I totally understand a wife that expects her husband to help around the house when he comes home. Being around kids 27h/day is just much more tiring than salaried work.
> 
> I am thankful that my wife is willing to stay home and she is doing a great job.


I so appreciate the spirit of your post...









YOU Duguesclin are a Phenomenal husband ...you recognize how much your wife does....there is no comparing going on in your mind but elevating your wife UP even... in appreciation....even with your 1 & half hours driving each day .... working a full time job & still you want to do all you can when you get home... offering to help out...and maybe she doesn't even need it.. but the idea that you are there...and care.. it's worth so much!  

I really feel , so long as one doesn't take advantage of the other...kicking up our feet a little too much....that putting forth "this spirit" to help each other...this can be a motivation in & of itself...to do all we can, in this our admiration & respect grows for our partner..plus we feel loved & appreciated in return, it's a wonderful feedback loop.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



Nynaeve said:


> I don't think all men are oppressors. I don't think you are.
> 
> But when I got fired for being pregnant, I wasn't stopping myself. The man who fired me surely has some responsibility for his actions.
> 
> Just because you aren't in a position of power that would enable you to exert some control over another person's goals and aspirations, doesn't mean that no man anywhere is.


Sorry about what happened to you. Just to clarify I wasn't saying that all women think men are oppressors. 

I also wasn't saying that people will never face any sort of discrimination or injustice in their lives. What I was trying to point out is that our society has changed an awful lot, and access to opportunity is more open for everybody than it ever has been. It will never be a perfect world for any of us. We will all face obstacles along the way.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



SimplyAmorous said:


> On the heels of this thread in the Ladies section... this is the spelled out RANT against certain types of men...
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/188289-sick-being-dissected-rant-here-15.html (post #217) ....


I would say it was more of a "screed" than a "rant."



SimplyAmorous said:


> When I read it.. I just felt this spelled out Male Chauvinistic behaviors - many of these...I do not for a minute believe the majority of men on TAM are geared this way... but true, some bad apples have a tendency to infect the bushel or so it appears from the outside at times..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The OP was long on vagueness and short on specifics. Here is her refinement of her original post:



dissected said:


> Okay, let me try one more time. And since it's a rant thread, I'll just lay it all out as best as I can:
> 
> 1) Threads that are all about carving women into body parts, and talking about women like we are cuts of meat.


Most likely a reference to the *MEN'S CLUBHOUSE* meat and bones thread, with a three way battle between "chubby chasers" , fans of drug-fueled anorexia, and those who appreciate classical proportions. Where's the beef? All classes of females had their detractors and champions, just as one would expect.



dissected said:


> 2) Posts that make it clear that women's purpose is to be cute and sexy, and *as long as she succeeds at that, she is worthwhile; otherwise she belongs on the dung heap.* This includes all the fat shaming and skinny shaming, and insistence that lingerie, high heels, and ***** grooming are the solution to any woman's problems.


Of course, these are things associated with women who are trying to sexually attract males and demonstrating a readiness for sexual activity. If the OP is not interested in sexually attracting males or otherwise engaging in coitus with men who find those attributes attractive, that's perfectly okay; she should simply do her own thing.

But note the bolded part. The author appears to be saying it is bad that men are not sexually attracted to women who do not show those sexy attributes. Presumably, this is because few men are attracted to the attributes the author believes men SHOULD be sexually attracted to.



dissected said:


> 3) Attitudes that women don't know what they want, are utterly irrational, and need a man around to tell them what's what.


Women are often irrational, but so are men, and "changing her mind is a woman's prerogative," as women are wont to say. As for needing a man to tell them what's what, I guess that depends on the subject.



dissected said:


> 4) Attitudes that feminism is the scourge of the earth, and that "women who wear pants" are inevitably going to turn off any man, and ultimately deserve their fate of being alone with their cats.


While a large percentage of males may be find domineering women to be a turn-off, males still fall along the good old bell curve. There are always going to be some men who are into any kind of deviant behavior you care to come up with. I mean deviant from the mean in the statistical sense.



dissected said:


> 5) Attitudes that women's sexuality is and should always be secondary to men's. This includes the ****-shaming and references to being "tainted" or "used merchandise", plus double standards around how many partners or what sorts of behaviours are acceptable for men vs women.


A fair percentage, maybe most, American men still demonstrate the partriarchal preference to ensure that their offspring are in fact their own, biologically. While we now have DNA tests at birth to ease fathers' minds, these weren't around 10,000 years ago at the dawn of the neolithic. This is why virginity is prized. Not to mention you don't have to worry if she's fooking alpha "ghosts" from her past when she's playing with herself.

Now, while my Indio ancestors were matriarchal and the fathers were not much involved with the raising of sons, that duty falling to the mother's oldest brother, modern women would have a fit if the biological father failed to perform as patriarch and raise up his biological sons. They complain every day about those fathers who are not involved and call them many bad names. For that reason alone, many men will continue to prize women with low body counts. Conversely, most women who are not Junior High School teachers do not value male virginity and seem to even consider it something of a turn off. It would seem the female preference is for "experience."



dissected said:


> 6) Posts that make it clear that when we are talking about "women", we are actually only talking about 20-something playboy bunnies, as *the rest aren't even really women or worth consideration. *


Once again, this is a complaint against what men find sexually attractive. Notice the use of "worth." What the poster does not understand is that men are not women, and for men _sexual attraction ≠ value._


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



JCD said:


> The Most Difficult Job On The Planet


this guy is my fing hero!!!!!!!!!!:smthumbup::smthumbup::lol::rofl:


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*

Since your asking for the "institutionalized", I guess I can come up with a few "hurts":

1.) The "princess" expectation for women. I think this has built up expectations for many women far and above reasonable. Couple this with the media interpretations (print and screen) of how guys are expected to act (or be eternally labelled as neanderthals). It would almost seem that the man's ability to absorb BS is a highly prized trait, the greater ability showing of course the more "love" from the man.

2.) Diamonds. Pure marketing at work, ingrained in so many women. I recall my first wife actually even took her engagement ring to be appraised, and then confronted me about the low purchase cost. I was 18, in highschool, and had no permanent job for goodness sake! 

3.) The striking double standard. I'm of the mind that no one should be struck, male or female. It has been suggested that I am less of a man because I don't think I should be struck, while the same people would gasp at the suggestion that force be met with force. Once again, our media portrayals of the angry woman slapping a man encourage exactly this double standard. 

4.) The constant accusations of being oppressed by privileged women. A key point to this being that it's perfectly fine (in fact, required to be supportive of) a feminist/women's advocacy organization, but the same for males would be ridiculed/offensive. Another double standard. 

As you can see, I have a problem with double standards, especially those that are fairly obvious. Unfortunately, such is the fervor of many feminists that they refuse to acknowledge this, or shift the blame to some other behavior of the oppressive men.

I recently watched the Breaking Bad series. The main characters relationship with his wife struck me very deeply, as throughout he remained steadfast in a focus of providing for his wife and kids, who in the end all shunned him while each having their own deep failings. The wife even slept with her boss (numerous times), and still managed to continually degrade the main character based on his flaws. Such appears to be the societal implication: Men - provide, shutup, accept your lot in life no matter how miserable.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*

I never liked the wife in Breaking Bad. She treated her husband with withering contempt through most of the series.

I wouldn't have such a problem for treating her drug dealer husband that way. But she treated him pathetically well before she discovered it or his lies.


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



Machiavelli said:


> Once again, this is a complaint against what men find sexually attractive. Notice the use of "worth." ....... men are not women, and for men _sexual attraction ≠ value._


:iagree: And this goes both ways.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



ET1SSJonota said:


> 2.) Diamonds. Pure marketing at work, ingrained in so many women. I recall my first wife actually even took her engagement ring to be appraised, and then confronted me about the low purchase cost. I was 18, in highschool, and had no permanent job for goodness sake!


Dude, you actually married her after she did that? You should have taken it back if she didn't appreciate it. Was she a good wife to you? I think I know the answer to that question but thought I'd ask anyway.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



ET1SSJonota said:


> 2.) Diamonds. Pure marketing at work, ingrained in so many women. I recall my first wife actually even took her engagement ring to be appraised, and then confronted me about the low purchase cost. I was 18, in highschool, and had no permanent job for goodness sake!


I didn't even get my ex an engagement ring, nor did I go down on one knee or whatever! But I can see what you mean, many (even most depending on where you live) women do equate material wealth with the measure of love.



> 3.) The striking double standard. I'm of the mind that no one should be struck, male or female. It has been suggested that I am less of a man because I don't think I should be struck, while the same people would gasp at the suggestion that force be met with force. Once again, our media portrayals of the angry woman slapping a man encourage exactly this double standard.


Most women aren't inheritedly violent and avoid direct confrontations by nature, however those who are - I agree, they shouldn't be granted the priviledge they void by becoming violent.

Still, as the world is as it is - grappling/restraining rather then striking is the best form of defense - in handling rough women as well as others who have it coming



> Such appears to be the societal implication: Men - provide, shutup, accept your lot in life no matter how miserable.


Meh

I just go







And carry on as I am, to hell with conforming to what women expect me to be

Besides I got married without bending knee, and I doubt I'll marry a woman who is so calculating enough to appraise my gifts or expect me to be her male-slave.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



RandomDude said:


> I didn't even get my ex an engagement ring, nor did I go down on one knee or whatever! But I can see what you mean, many (even most depending on where you live) women do equate material wealth with the measure of love.


Me neither. Back in the 70's, DeBeers really hadn't yet got their hooks into the masses. All my kids spent big on wedding sets. Basically, non-performing assets.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*

My STB Step daughter has been dating a guy for coming up on two years now, and he's a good guy. I like him.

On my way home a month or so ago, I drove past where she works, on on the sign out front, it said "Prom with me Phoenix?" so when I got home, I asked her who Phoenix was. It was obvious she had seen the sign already...She got kind of pissed and snapped that she was a girl who worked there too and that her boyfriend had put the sign up there, and she wished her boyfriend would those kinds of things for her.

Now, in the age of social media, this sort of princessification, it is setting such unrealistic standards, and young women are drinking it up, and it is the young men who are going to, and already are going to suffer for it. Hell, take a look around Facebook and look at all the "Real men treat women this way and that way, put their woman on a throne..." crap. Not nearly so many ones about how real women should treat their man...plenty about real women and what she should EXPECT and DESERVE a man to do for her, not so much about what a real woman should GIVE...it's all about take take take...


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



samyeagar said:


> My STB Step daughter has been dating a guy for coming up on two years now, and he's a good guy. I like him.
> 
> On my way home a month or so ago, I drove past where she works, on on the sign out front, it said "Prom with me Phoenix?" so when I got home, I asked her who Phoenix was. It was obvious she had seen the sign already...She got kind of pissed and snapped that she was a girl who worked there too and that her boyfriend had put the sign up there, and she wished her boyfriend would those kinds of things for her.
> 
> Now, in the age of social media, this sort of princessification, it is setting such unrealistic standards, and young women are drinking it up, and it is the young men who are going to, and already are going to suffer for it. Hell, take a look around Facebook and look at all the "Real men treat women this way and that way, put their woman on a throne..." crap. Not nearly so many ones about how real women should treat their man...plenty about real women and what she should EXPECT and DESERVE a man to do for her, not so much about what a real woman should GIVE...it's all about take take take...


There is nothing new. Girls want to show off to other girls and guys want pretty girls to show off to other guys. Once married, they want the big house to show off to the neighbors and the colleagues. When their kids get married, they want to show off with a big wedding.

Social status is ingrained in us. Girls and boys do it and hurt each other in the process.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



Duguesclin said:


> There is nothing new. Girls want to show off to other girls and guys want pretty girls to show off to other guys. Once married, they want the big house to show off to the neighbors and the colleagues. When their kids get married, they want to show off with a big wedding.
> 
> Social status is ingrained in us. Girls and boys do it and hurt each other in the process.


The general attitude, maybe not, but...

With instant access, instant expression, the built in filters, built in cooling off periods have been removed from basic human interaction, and this is something people have never had to socially deal with before. Lack of virtual accountability has been creeping into real world interactions and it is not good.

Take bullying for a specific example...

Twenty years ago, the kid gets picked on at recess, but at the end of the day, they all go home. Unless they are all out together in the neighborhood after school, there was a break, a cooling off period until the next day. Now a days, with social media, every kid having a phone, it is constant, instant, 24/7 with no breaks, no cooling off period...


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



samyeagar said:


> The general attitude, maybe not, but...
> 
> With instant access, instant expression, the built in filters, built in cooling off periods have been removed from basic human interaction, and this is something people have never had to socially deal with before. Lack of virtual accountability has been creeping into real world interactions and it is not good.
> 
> ...


You have a good point, this is one adverse effect of social media. 

We, as parents, have a lot of responsibilities to counteract those adverse effects. I look at my kids and I know they watch what my wife and I do. We try to be good examples and caution them on those new tools like Facebook, Twitter and so on.

It is important to keep an open communication with them. They need to feel safe to ask for help.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



Duguesclin said:


> You have a good point, this is one adverse effect of social media.
> 
> We, as parents, have a lot of responsibilities to counteract those adverse effects. I look at my kids and I know they watch what my wife and I do. We try to be good examples and caution them on those new tools like Facebook, Twitter and so on.
> 
> It is important to keep an open communication with them. They need to feel safe to ask for help.


And we as parents are facing things that no other generation of parents has ever had to face...not even a variant there of...

Sure, kids could and did sneak out of the house in the past, but now, they can bring it all into their bedroom any time of the day or night without us knowing a thing, no matter how vigilant we are. Cell phones, cameras, texting,...you used to have to get a Polaroid and damn expensive film to take a naked pic, unless you had your own darkroom, or trusted the film processor, and you had to physically hand the prints to someone...built in cooling off period...now a days...two seconds from beginning to end and half a million people could have a copy of the pic...


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



ET1SSJonota said:


> Since your asking for the "institutionalized", I guess I can come up with a few "hurts":
> 
> 1.) * The "princess" expectation for women*. I think this has built up expectations for many women far and above reasonable. Couple this with the media interpretations (print and screen) of how guys are expected to act (or be eternally labelled as neanderthals). It would almost seem that the man's ability to absorb BS is a highly prized trait, the greater ability showing of course the more "love" from the man.





> *Samyeagar said:* Now, in the age of social media, this sort of princessification, it is setting such unrealistic standards, and young women are drinking it up, and it is the young men who are going to, and already are going to suffer for it. Hell, take a look around Facebook and look at all the "*Real men treat women this way and that way, put their woman on a throne..*." crap. Not nearly so many ones about how real women should treat their man...*plenty about real women and what she should EXPECT and DESERVE a man to do for her, not so much about what a real woman should GIVE...it's all about take take take.*..


 Oh Samyeagar, I've posted those a # of times on here!! Are you trying to tell me I make you want to throw up ..here are a few I have saved....



I don't do such a thing on FB though, don't touch that, this is my playground here. Where I agree with you is.. there should be JUST AS MANY writings to how we treat our men, how to love and honor them...I even think RESPECT is more important over Love to them ...or they find it equal in need....(My H feels if you RESPECT you Love, but if you have lost the respect, you aren't fully loving..so it needs to come 1st)....

But true...these articles / quotes seem more difficult to find (I just looked).... When I do see things like this...I very much enjoy reading them...I think of the "Proverbs 31 woman"...the words written outdated but the spirit within still holds true.. 

On the whole Princess front.... You was talking about some BF who put up a sign and your STBW's daughter wished her BF would do a sign like that for her (advertising)...she was a little jealous...

Then Duguesclin's mentions how our daughters might expect Big weddings.. I don't think there is anything wrong with a girl dreaming of her Wedding day....(so long as the primary focus is still on what it represents -not just for a big show..ya know....this is a commitment for a lifetime).... If the memories of that sort of thing is something she would hold on to dearly... It's not wrong to desire this.. 

*I think the heart of your meaning in all of this is ... the expectation -- in a way of entitlement* .. I ASSUME this attitude is what you are trying to convey... like a girl expecting a 2 carat diamond from an 18 yr old BF -just cause he can buy it on Credit these days...(like ET1SSJonota's expected -an attitude there even though he didn't have a steady job)...

Me in contrast...when I seen the 1 carat my husband got me ... he was maybe 20 at the time , I told him he spent TOO MUCH! What he did was surprise me with the one I admired the most when we looked together... but at the same time, I felt it was too expensive.

So the Princess title is all about the woman who expects to be pampered or she will whine & not appreciate what she has in the moment...and who isn't giving back as much.. am I getting this??

For our wedding.... I knew only me & him could pull that off.... I was not spoiled or treated like a Princess growing up, my H felt I was neglected even...he took me shopping for clothes when we met...he couldn't believe it when , coming home on my 18th Birthday, my step Mom had my bedroom on the porch ...I was on my own...

Things like THIS made him want to give me everything he felt I never had.. If I wanted & dreamed of a family - a special wedding day...he wanted to help me make that happen. And he did. ...I dearly love him for caring so much. 

I have referred to my H treating me like a Queen (He calls me his Queen)... I have referred to him as my White Knight....

He told me a few yrs ago, he has always had me on a Pedestal.. we had a long discussion that night...I explained how this is not right, numerous articles are written to why this is damaging for any man to elevate a woman above himself... or feels she can do no wrong (now that one is a joke -he knows ALL my flaws & I can have some unruly moments!)... YET...he argued with me ....telling me that's how he feels... and I deserve one.. do you have any idea how silly this conversation was!! 

We settled on this conclusion.... so long as I have him on one too.. we're even.. so does it really matter?? I think my H is a better person than I am ..Maybe it did hurt a little back in the day, I took him for granted some....but I've come around.. It's not like I am going to brow beat him over this.. 

And really... I hardly see myself as a Princess... I don't expect to he handled with Kid gloves, never get my hands dirty/ break a nail... not contribute or any such crazy thing.. if this IS what they mean by a Princess.. I'm on board.... I would get in the sewer and shovel Sh** to help my H get a job done.. No, we haven't had to do this.. but I've helped him with all of our vehicle / home projects...getting dirty/muddy digging ditches right beside him, going to the junk yard and lying under junk Chevys holding tools and stuff like this.....I don't expect to be treated 1st class.. ..

Material wise, my expectations are very low... going by society's norms. 

Just giving another spin to this.. sometimes some of us use those words.. but maybe it's just something endearing- to us personally....not necessarily representative of an "entitlement' attitude ... or spoiling to where it hurts the man. 



> *ET1SSJonota said: *
> 3.) *The striking double standard.* I'm of the mind that no one should be struck, male or female. It has been suggested that I am less of a man because I don't think I should be struck, while the same people would gasp at the suggestion that force be met with force. Once again, our media portrayals of the angry woman slapping a man encourage exactly this double standard.


 This double standard seems to get a lot less attention but I've seen it discussed here a handful of times.. 

I think most people who would see this sort of behavior in the media.... would see such women as out of control Bi*ches.. NO ?? ...and obviously if she is doing this to her man, she has LOST RESPECT for him.. Then the man would be ridiculed for being too NICE GUY to stand and take it... both would be judged. 

The only time I have ever gotten physical with a man is when my Step Father was DRUNK ...he was cursing my Mother up & down.. & I was thinking... and she puts up with your a**.... I listened to so much and I should have gotten out of there....I couldn't take it any more...and I knocked him to the ground.. (I was in my early 20's).... 

I could not live with a DRUNK [email protected]#$%..... I have to be with a decent sort of man who is all there...treats people right, the whole give & take thing.... or I'd be FIRE to live with...that's just being honest..


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



SimplyAmorous said:


> Oh Samyeagar, I've posted those a # of times on here!! Are you trying to tell me I make you want to throw up ..here are a few I have saved....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think you have a pretty good grasp of what I was getting at. To further this, the princessification...a growing trend that women are being taught that they deserve and can expect things simply because they are women. There is very little exploration of what they should do in return to actually deserve being treated the way they are demanding.

Yes, my STB step daughter was jealous, but she also let what some other guy did raise her own bar for the guy she is dating, then getting upset with him for not living up to some other standards. In other words, she moved the goal posts on him without telling him and then got upset at him because he missed, and this is becoming far more prevalent now a days.

About the ring...I got my STBW the ring she had gotten little twinkly stars in her eyes over, but never expected, because, and I knew she felt this way before I got it...it was too expensive


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*

Our society is too materialistic. Easy credit is probably part of this.

Going to school encourages this, too. There is so much peer pressure. And there probably is in the work place, too.

We had a small, $500 wedding. Dh wore a suit, and I wore my best dress. We paid $100 each for gold bands. And it was the happiest day of my life. 

I don't get all the emphasis on material things. Happiness does not come from what you can _buy._


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



RandomDude said:


> *I didn't even get my ex an engagement ring, nor did I go down on one knee or whatever! But I can see what you mean, many (even most depending on where you live) women do equate material wealth with the measure of love. *


 I think women are all different... I care more about how a man treats me, the togetherness, affection, feeling he is my Best friend, our communication/ chemistry... over his having a 6 figure income...or what he can offer me materially. 

I have often wondered about this scene in the Notebook...  Allie and her mother scene watching her old flame at work 







... does she regret not marrying this old boyfriend... her 1st true love...but let him go because he was just a blue collar worker - sweating & coming home in soot every day...for minimal pay....

Or she is happy she didn't choose Love -but cared more about someone who could give her a better lifestyle...and she learned to love him in time... Not sure what the message intended was in this scene... (obviously Noah was the poorer of the 2 men Allie had to choose from)..

One of the posts says >


> I think Allie's mom is trying to show her what regret looks like. Her mother is clearly still in love with that man, but she chose a different life. She loves Allie's father, but she wonders if she would have been happier with her true love. I took this scene as her mom saying, "Make sure you know what you're doing if you choose Lon. Don't make a wrong decision like I think I might have, because there's nothing more paralyzingly than regret".


Then in the flip side...are these >


> I love this scene especially the words, " Do you see that man there?" we were out of our minds in love 25 years ago. I don't even know who he is now." Great movie about true love. The mother was lucky to have found her wonderful husband.
> 
> Her mother wanted her to have a good life with plenty of money so she wouldn't have to worry about anything.... not having money is very tough


It's a tough call.. to what is *most important* to someone I guess.. 



> *Random Dude said:* Most women aren't inheritedly violent and avoid direct confrontations by nature, however those who are - I agree, they shouldn't be granted the priviledge they void by becoming violent.
> 
> *: Still, as the world is as it is - grappling/restraining rather then striking is the best form of defense - in handling rough women as well as others who have it coming*


I agree with you on this....as in restraining her...and showing "this doesn't fly with me"... Men are physically stronger, they can handle this unless she is some sort of body builder.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



jld said:


> Our society is too materialistic. Easy credit is probably part of this.


Don't worry. That's going to be ending soon. Just make sure you've got plenty of canned goods and ammo.





jld said:


> We had a small, $500 wedding. Dh wore a suit, and I wore my best dress. We paid $100 each for gold bands. And it was the happiest day of my life.


We did the same and probably had 100 or more people. They had to buy their own Big Macs, though.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



SimplyAmorous said:


> I think women are all different... I care more about how a man treats me, the togetherness, affection, feeling he is my Best friend, our communication/ chemistry... over his having a 6 figure income...or what he can offer me materially.


Aye, so did my ex. Ironically over the years I ended up giving her the lifestyle that she had never asked for with me - she never expected success. A part of me resented her lack of faith in me enough to ask me to ask her parents for money - which I rejected, and it also drove me to want to achieve for my new family's welfare.

Her non-materialism still haunts me to this day however, knowing that she played a part in my success, yet loved me for who I was and not my wealth; something many women are unable to do. In fact, I struggle not to see certain women as vultures now actually.



> I have often wondered about this scene in the Notebook...  Allie and her mother scene watching her old flame at work
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Argh I hate that movie >.<



> I agree with you on this....as in restraining her...and showing "this doesn't fly with me"... Men are physically stronger, they can handle this unless she is some sort of body builder.


And if she was? :rofl:


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## owl6118 (Jan 30, 2014)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*

I really hesitate to weigh in here, I'm not sure how much good can come of it--well, how much good for me in any event! 

But at the risk of exposing myself as seven kinds of fool here I go.

The title question is "Can women hurt men?"

Someone early on wisely pointed out that there are really two questions: 1. is there a mirror image to male sexism, an example of structural discrimination against men by women? and 2. Are there ways in which men are emotionally vulnerable to women, which women may not fully appreciate?

I'm going to take a pass on the first, its a worthy topic of conversation, but its not where my heart and mind went when I read the bare question "Can women hurt men?"

Where my mind did go was--"Whew. If only they knew."

All my life I have, on average, preferred the company of women. I like the way their minds work. I like that on average, women are more interested in some of the things that interest me than men are. I like doing stuff with guys, but I like talking with women--and doing stuff with them, too! 

And the smarter, more capable, more well rounded, more accomplished (in whatever sphere she chooses to become accomplished) the woman is, the more I like her.

So one of the hardest things for me to accept, has been that when it comes to matters of the heart, women often are attracted to--in part, in some degree, and at some times in their life more than others--cads. *******s. Bad Boys.

Yes, here we go, down into the endless bull**** debate over Nice Guys and Bad Boys, MMSLP, NNMNG, Alpha, Beta, yadda yadda, ad infinitum.

I really don't want to get into rehashing all that. All that stuff has a little truth in it, sometimes mixed up with a lot of barely concealed misogyny. I certainly don't want to rehash it all here, I am sure there is nothing new to be said. 

And yet ... there is that little kernal of truth buried in all the sloppy evolutionary psych arm waving and bull****. Its the same truth I learned on my own in my late 20s. After trying for years to "be myself" and "be authentic," I deliberately introduced a touch of genteel caddishness to my dating persona. 

You know what was exciting? It worked.

You know what broke my heart a little? It worked.

In my private heart, I will always wish I had never learned that showing my soul without much guile got me lots of girls as friends a lot fewer girlfriends. And it will always hurt a little to know that the things I value most in the giving--respect, loyalty, showing the excitement I feel for a woman's mind and character and achievement--well, aren't enough in the mating dance, at least in the beginning. 

Yeah, yeah, cry me an f-ing river. How Beta of me.

But if the question is is there a reciprocal, maybe this is one, for some guys at least: watching a capable, strong, attractive women respond to being treated a bit caddishly, probably feels a lot like watching a strong, accomplished, intelligent guy respond to a show of kittenishness, or damsel in distress, or wounded bird, or outright T&A show. 

It's no fun watching a person you respect--of the gender you are attracted to--show the irrational side of the way their gender is hardwired.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



> *owl6118 said*:​ *Are there ways in which men are emotionally vulnerable to women, which women may not fully appreciate?
> 
> I'm going to take a pass on the first, its a worthy topic of conversation, but its not where my heart and mind went when I read the bare question "Can women hurt men?"
> 
> Where my mind did go was--"Whew. If only they knew*.


Owl6118...I very much appreciate your post... and in my mind...where you went with this ...Is what I personally believe very strongly....I have seen in my own life with guy friends, etc.. Men can surely be HURT...and some of the most caring seem to get the brunt of this...

My husband is geared Beta on those scales, there is no doubt about this....I don't even hesitate to say this any more on TAM... knowing full well that people conquer up weak & unattractive behaviors immediately with that word...... which I would even argue against...depending on what context we are talking about ... also I feel it is paramount to what the women herself is seeking in a man...does she want a Family man/ someone to be her best friend / the more sensitive Romantic type....or does she need a flurry of Excitement and Mystery to hold her attraction ? 

There is GOOD Beta and BAD Beta..just as there is Good ALPHA and Bad ALPHA.....(but we never hear of the bad ALPHA being picked apart, well actually WE DO.. it's on that other thread in spades... though somehow the label gets lost ....It is narcissistic Male chauvinism !! Women are JUST as turned off by that [email protected]#$%^

A little run down on these differences... 



> > The *Alpha Traits* are those associated with classic “manly man” strengths. Power, dominance, physical ability, bravery, wealth, cool and confidence. Oh and good genes. These are the things that attract women and turn them on sexually. The Alpha Traits are linked to the dopamine response in women.
> >
> > *Alpha *= attraction building = Dopamine = In Love = Excitement
> 
> ...





> *owl6118 said*: So one of the hardest things for me to accept, has been that when it comes to matters of the heart, women often are attracted to--in part, in some degree, and at some times in their life more than others--cads. *******s. Bad Boys.
> 
> Yes, here we go, down into the endless bull**** debate over Nice Guys and Bad Boys, MMSLP, NNMNG, Alpha, Beta, yadda yadda, ad infinitum.
> 
> ...


 I am sorry you have experienced this.. my H was this way... *and that IS his authentic self*... he really wasn't playing "Nice Guy" to win me.. ya know.... he gave of who he was.... I loved this about him.....I can recognize the goodness in this though, can't handle when people put on a show, I want to uproot all the Bull**it and see what they are really made of....I can be a little relentless on this account... God help anyone I would date!

I have always rejected the Bad Boy type, I see nothing but Trouble with those sort of men... oh they are exciting socially, but they are far too unpredictable, trying to tame them.... F*** that ... 

A man that can show some dirtiness in the bedroom is surely a plus ...but a Gentleman on the streets.. HELL YEAH ! A character than others look up to, with integrity... hell yeah !!

Did you see this thread of mine ...please take a moment... 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-c...thy-praise-honor-minus-alpha-beta-debate.html



> *owl6118 said*: But if the question is is there a reciprocal, maybe this is one, for some guys at least: watching a capable, strong, attractive women respond to being treated a bit caddishly, probably feels a lot like watching a strong, accomplished, intelligent guy respond to a show of kittenishness, or damsel in distress, or wounded bird, or outright T&A show.
> 
> *It's no fun watching a person you respect--of the gender you are attracted to--show the irrational side of the way their gender is hardwired.*


 I am not familiar with your story...you are new here...you will find much help here.. I wish you the best .


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## owl6118 (Jan 30, 2014)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



SimplyAmorous said:


> also I feel it is paramount to what the women herself is seeking in a man...does she want a Family man/ someone to be her best friend / the more sensitive Romantic type....or does she need a flurry of Excitement and Mystery to hold her attraction ?



Well that's just it, isn't it? We'd like to think what we offer--the respect our eyes show for them, the spark of minds connecting, the honor we do them by appreciating them as a REAL PERSON, an equal, a challenge, blah blah blah-- is exciting too, not just... nice to settle down with. 

<shrug>





SimplyAmorous said:


> I am not familiar with your story...you are new here...you will find much help here.. I wish you the best .


No worries, SA. 

Sure, everybody comes to TAM with something on their mind. I came here to get some help with concerns about reconnecting with my wife after my depression. You can find the story, such as it is, in the earlier posts in my profile. I've found a lot that really helped. 

But THIS post in particular is just me musing and airing out old memories, not present challenges. A kind of standing up for my much younger self.

But back to the point: you chose your husband, my wife chose me, empathetic guys can and do win as the final choice and the lifetime commitment. We very often get the girl in the end. But we are still men. No man likes to think he is just the steady guy his gal grew into when she grew up... ESPECIALLY when there is probably a little truth to it! To paraphrase Winston Churchill: You can always count on a quality woman to choose a quality man... but, in many cases, only after exhausting all the alternatives first.



You learn to live with it. And... dammit, we did win in the end!


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



owl6118 said:


> You learn to live with it. And... dammit, we did win in the end!


In the end, it doesn't even matter if you are happy being a plan B.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



owl6118 said:


> Someone early on wisely pointed out that there are really two questions: 1. *is there a mirror image to male sexism, an example of structural discrimination against men by women? *



Well I'll answer #1 for you.

Of course there is a mirror image to male sexism that is perpetrated by society and females upon men, but they are cultured to accept it as normal.
That type of sexism is rife with double standards.

I'll give just a few personal examples.

When I was 16 years old I had sex for the first time with a 28 yrs old woman I met for the first time on a beach. In our country, the age of consent is 18 years, so technically its statutory rape. 
Now switch the genders .
If I was a 16 yr old girl having sex with a 28 yr old strange man I met on the beach, everyone would tell me that I was a rape victim and advise me to press charges.
Clearly, a double standard.

Another example.

When I was around 14 years old, in high school, I was hanging in an empty classroom with an older girl. She told me that she had liked me and made a move on me, but being inexperienced , I pulled back. She then took my hand and placed it on her breast.
Switch the genders.
If I being male and older than her had done the same, isolated her , put down the moves , she resisted , then I take her hand and place it on my penis, then my actions would be considered 
" rapey ", and I might even be called a rapist.

Here's another more recent example.

I work out in the gym, I have a good physique , huge arms , back and shoulders.
Women , sometimes those I've just met in a social setting or even professional setting, always want to feel my arms, some of them covertly.
They always touch, rest their hands on my shoulders etc.
Some women pat me on the ass, some like to pat my abs , in a joking manner.
One time there was this ridiculous woman who actually put her hand in my shirt and felt my chest, because I usually wear my the first two buttons on my shirt unbuttoned when it's hot.
Sometimes they comment and smile , sometimes they don't.
But in reality, I hate strange people breaching my personal space and touching my body in any form or fashion. But it won't be polite for me to tell a woman whom I've just met that, especially if she's a professional.
Switch the genders.
I would be called a " creep" or " pervert" if I touched any part of a strange woman I just met , except shake her hands.

A lot of things that men are taught to accept would never be accepted , and would land them in serious legal troubles,if the gender roles were reversed.

Have you ever been flashed by a girl/ woman?
But if you flash a woman,
You'll land in jail.

That's why I always have a hearty laugh when people say that the genders are the same.


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## owl6118 (Jan 30, 2014)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



WhiteRaven said:


> In the end, it doesn't even matter if you are happy being a plan B.


So much depends on how you look at things. If Plan A was really Plan A, Mrs. Owl would be Mrs. Somebody else!


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*

You don't have to like what drives female attraction to use it.

You don't have to find it moral, or ethical, or have it align with your values. It's simply what drives the physical continuity of the species.

Then there's cultural and individual overlays on top of that.

Reproductive strategies don't have a set of ethics attached. They are.

It will always be true that for _most women_ and all other things being equal that taller, richer, more muscled, socially dominant, and confident guys will be more attractive than guys that are identical but show less of these traits. Is this structural discrimination? I don't know and I don't really care.

Why? Because their offspring will tend to be more reproductively successful with those kinds of partners.

It doesn't mean that women won't love you without those traits. It doesn't mean that they won't care, or still be somewhat attracted to you. 

It doesn't mean that if you lack some of these traits that you can't make up for them in other areas. 

It doesn't mean that if some of these traits don't align with your personality that you can't make up for them in other areas.

It doesn't mean that if some guy comes along that shows more of these traits than you do will immediately be able to steal your wife away (if she's worth being your wife, that is).

Knowledge is power. How you use the knowledge is up to you.

I would only advise that rejecting/idealizing/etc these facts if you are an idealogue is risky.

Stack the odds in your favor.

Structural discrimination in my view in society is watching reproductive selection play out across the cultural political landscape post-sexual liberation. The pendulum keeps swinging.

I'm finding the more I go through this the more that people are just tired of it.

The older I get the more I find with our friends and family, the more the women are staying home to raise the kids. The more that enough $ is enough money. The more that guys are being guys and girls are being girls. The more histrionics from the feminist nut cases, the more I find women reject them.

I remember watching a show recently about a couple that is raising their son to be gender-neutral completely... where he can self-identify as a boy or a girl all he wants, wear dresses to school, make-up, etc... I think he's 8 or 9 or something. And I thought what idealogue BS. Great in theory; but we are first and foremost an animal species living on planet earth where reproductive success and failure is driven by billions of years of evolutionary biology. You can't idealize your way out of that. 

Ignore your biology at your peril. The road to hell is paved by good intentions.

And the world keeps turning around.


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*

Quote:
Originally Posted by jld View Post
Our society is too materialistic. Easy credit is probably part of this.
Machiavelli:
Don't worry. That's going to be ending soon. Just make sure you've got plenty of canned goods and ammo.

This is especially true in the US. 
A whole lot of people will eventually get to know what it means to just be getting by thanks to our freebie government policies.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*

Humanity has always been materialistic since modern humans appeared on this earth.

It's why we survived as a species to become the dominant animal on this planet.

I don't think we'll ever overcome it.

But I have hopes we'll find creative ways of using our nature to continue to thrive.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*

Women are hard wired to be ruthlessly passive aggressive. In some ways the terms 'femininity' and 'coldly manipulative' are interchangeable.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*

"Can women hurt men?"

Women can destroy many men. In fact for some men this is the only way they can be hurt.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



Caribbean Man said:


> That's why I always have a hearty laugh when people say that the genders are the same.


My wife used to get very angry with me for not filing at least one of the 341 sexual harassment cases I caught in 1991. A man filing for sexual harassment for being groped is absurd, and he'd better have video. Make that _clear _video.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



Runs like Dog said:


> Women are hard wired to be ruthlessly passive aggressive. In some ways the terms 'femininity' and 'coldly manipulative' are interchangeable.


I don't agree.

But then again, I have a thing for outspoken, intelligent, strong willed women.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



RandomDude said:


> *Her non-materialism still haunts me to this day however, knowing that she played a part in my success, yet loved me for who I was and not my wealth; something many women are unable to do. In fact, I struggle not to see certain women as vultures now actually*.


 you speak of this often. ..it seems your #1 concern ...you MUST weed these women out...even though you haven't been "taken" for your $$ as yet...this lives in you very strongly... 



> *Argh I hate that movie >.<*


 Does this surprise me coming from you RD.... not at all....

Then there is my H...He has watched it with me many times .. one night we were talking about getting old, if this or that happened/ the sadness, one slipping away... he says to me he would be just like Noah...if I lost my memory ...devoted to my side, reading to me, never loosing hope...telling our children this was his HOME now....very special movie... special moments between us.... 












> *Runs like Dog said* :*Women are hard wired to be ruthlessly passive aggressive. In some ways the terms 'femininity' and 'coldly manipulative' are interchangeable.*





> *marduk said*: *I don't agree.
> 
> But then again, I have a thing for outspoken, intelligent, strong willed women.*


I was thinking of saying something to Runs Like a Dog's comment as well.. although it seems statistically true that MORE women are passive (whether they are aggressive about it or not- that depends)....and overwhelmingly the majority of MEN are geared more "take charge Aggressive" -those confronters.. due to higher Test levels...while WE are the more sensitive & Nurturing ....but it's not an exact science..

Take me & my H for instance....my H is an ISFJ (1 out of 16 temperament profiles- fits him like a glove too)..... look at the bottom of this chart...most of those are WOMEN !......ISFJ's are called the Protector / Nurturers...



















Out of the 2 of us... overwhelmingly he has been the more Passive...(not so much passive aggressive -I can not stand that behavior -seriously!).....I am one of those outspoken strong willed woman ... we are very opposite ..yet complimentary at the same time..


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



Caribbean Man said:


> Well I'll answer #1 for you.
> 
> A lot of things that men are taught to accept would never be accepted , and would land them in serious legal troubles,if the gender roles were reversed.


That's a fact. It's true that it would come across as ridiculous if a guy filed a suit for sexual harassment. There was a comedy a couple of years ago about this with Jennifer Aniston... was really funny.

And there was a darker film also a few years back with Demi Moore I think. The guy was sexually harassed at work and sued... Can't remember exactly.


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## EasyPartner (Apr 7, 2014)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*

Indecent proposal?


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



EasyPartner said:


> Indecent proposal?


I thought Indecent proposal was the one with Woody Harrelson and Robert Redford. RR proposed 1MUSD for a night with the main character's wife....


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## EasyPartner (Apr 7, 2014)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



Omego said:


> I thought Indecent proposal was the one with Woody Harrelson and Robert Redford. RR proposed 1MUSD for a night with the main character's wife....


I stand corrected.

Disclosure?


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



EasyPartner said:


> I stand corrected.
> 
> Disclosure?


Yes!! That's it. I remembered it because of the suggestive poster. Never saw it though.


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## bkaydezz (Jul 9, 2012)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*

Anyone can hurt anybody. Woman or Man. We are human right?


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



ReformedHubby said:


> Dude, you actually married her after she did that? You should have taken it back if she didn't appreciate it. Was she a good wife to you? I think I know the answer to that question but thought I'd ask anyway.


Sadly, yes. While that and many other things should have been red flags, I had no idea what I was supposed to be doing. So natural progression right, years together –engage – marry – divorce (oops). She bats for the other team, was the major reason for the divorce (I didn’t find out about the multiple infidelities until afterwards – lucky me!)



RandomDude said:


> I didn't even get my ex an engagement ring, nor did I go down on one knee or whatever! But I can see what you mean, many (even most depending on where you live) women do equate material wealth with the measure of love.
> Most women aren't inheritedly violent and avoid direct confrontations by nature, however those who are - I agree, they shouldn't be granted the priviledge they void by becoming violent.
> Still, as the world is as it is - grappling/restraining rather then striking is the best form of defense - in handling rough women as well as others who have it coming


My current wife proposed to me (well there were multiple proposals, it was complicated…), and we got matching titanium rings that were her pick and relatively inexpensive. 

My experience has not been that women aren’t “violent”, just that they aren’t aggressively/angrily violent. I’ve had numerous women throughout my life poke/slap/hit/bite “playfully”. The problem in my case is I have some sort of issue with being struck (that I don’t feel particularly bad about), in particular anywhere on my head. So the oh-so-cliché “slap to the face” in the movies nearly makes me see red when performed in real life, regardless of who it is or if the reason they’re doing it is to be cute. 

I completely agree on the restraining – but much as CM noted, “touching” a woman in a physically forceful way is frowned upon, even restraining against her will, as the man is just supposed to “take it”. Did I mention I hate double standards?


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



SimplyAmorous said:


> On the whole Princess front.... Then Duguesclin's mentions how our daughters might expect Big weddings.. I don't think there is anything wrong with a girl dreaming of her Wedding day....(so long as the primary focus is still on what it represents -not just for a big show..ya know....this is a commitment for a lifetime).... If the memories of that sort of thing is something she would hold on to dearly... It's not wrong to desire this..
> *I think the heart of your meaning in all of this is ... the expectation -- in a way of entitlement* .. I ASSUME this attitude is what you are trying to convey... like a girl expecting a 2 carat diamond from an 18 yr old BF -just cause he can buy it on Credit these days...(like ET1SSJonota's expected -an attitude there even though he didn't have a steady job)...
> Me in contrast...when I seen the 1 carat my husband got me ... he was maybe 20 at the time , I told him he spent TOO MUCH! What he did was surprise me with the one I admired the most when we looked together... but at the same time, I felt it was too expensive.
> So the Princess title is all about the woman who expects to be pampered or she will whine & not appreciate what she has in the moment...and who isn't giving back as much.. am I getting this??
> ...


There’s nothing wrong about dreaming about your wedding day – I think that’s perfectly healthy. As you correctly point out, though, it seems that nowadays it’s more about how big of a show can be put on, and how much $$$ can be blown for that “special” day. 

I take a little bit of a different tack to the Princess title than you do. To me, the title is extremely appropriate because the characteristics are so similar to the stereotypical historical title. Nobility – that by birthright/blood right alone she is superior and to be treated not as an equal or partner, but as a better (I laughingly say the “more equal” half). Lack of responsibility – they aren’t “Queens” because they don’t even do that amount of “work”, they are held to no standard or requirements, they are to be loved, adored, showered with gifts and praise, and nothing is to be expected of them at any time. Impetuous – being a Princess means never having to grow up, and being mischievous is not only accepted it is expected. Having tantrum time and taking out all of life’s frustrations on the closest person available (for the real Princess –the ladies in waiting, for our Princesses – US), with of course no reciprocation or understanding if it occurs to them. Authority – no one but the King and Queen can challenge, which includes any Prince’s that might be hanging around. And while the Princess might dally with a Knight, as much as he hopes, she’ll still be dreaming of that Prince from the faraway land that what’shername met…

While that might be all a little bit overblown, the quickest easiest examples I can give is the common theme(s) we hear from married men. Once something starts to be given, generally we get good reception, recognition, reciprocity, excitement, and pleasure in response. This could be anything: backrubs, gifts, candies, date nights, extra chores around the house, super dad duties, etc. Over time, these things morph from being individual gifts of affection and love to being expectations or flat out duties. They are no longer thankful for these things. Shortly after this phase comes the nitpicking phase, where each of the now expected duties is transformed further into items to be critiqued. The backrub isn’t long enough, isn’t deep enough, didn’t use lotion, focused too much on the butt or the boobs. The gifts are too infrequent, too cheap, not thought out enough, too late, etc. The candies aren’t the right kind, aren’t what she’s craving. The date nights weren’t thought out as well as Mary Susan’s husband did for her anniversary, didn’t make fireworks in the sky, and no celebrities were invited to perform for her. The extra chores were just our “fair share”, and it was about time we did something more around the house to help her out. And of course, my favorite complaint from the stay-at-home wife of how the “work” for the Dad at home is a vacation from their job, so doesn’t count as work; but for the woman they’re job is 24/7 so the man should do everything when he gets home.

We’ve all heard the “joke” saying: Men get married hoping the woman won’t change, but she does. Women get married hoping the man will change, but he doesn’t. While clearly this isn’t going to work to describe all marriages, in many ways, it fits to a lot of them. Consider the previous paragraph and the accompanying all-to-frequent reductions throughout the various phases from rock-solid girlfriend/lover to bitter controlling wife in anything that could serve to remind the man about why he fell in love with her in the first place (be it affection, devoted time, understanding, lovemaking, etc). Not at all unlike a monarch consolidating power unto themselves, no?

I think the striking double standard isn’t discussed enough, and is all-too-entirely accepted by the female side. Still going along with the “more equal” clause, it seems the generally accepted (but not out loud) female body being weaker makes this double standard acceptable. I myself suffer from the very same bias, so don’t feel I’m just lashing out at the ladies here. I think about all the scenarios I have seen women hit men, and by and large, it doesn’t bother me (except, of course, when I have been the recipient). To then consider the man doing the exact same thing back, I sense an anger/outrage at the offense. While certainly a woman who goes around hitting everyone would be looked at as some crazy bi0tch, it’s the more subtle expectation that the reasonably angry woman can strike a man, but the calm OR reasonably angry man cannot do the same.

Your anecdote about the drunken stepfather is apples and oranges to what I’m talking about. I personally believe any person (male or female) has the right to defend themselves or their loved ones from aggressors, and that doesn’t always mean just physical aggressors. It sounds like you were more than justified. 

….sorry for the book…


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



ET1SSJonota said:


> There’s nothing wrong about dreaming about your wedding day – I think that’s perfectly healthy. As you correctly point out, though, it seems that nowadays it’s more about how big of a show can be put on, and how much $$$ can be blown for that “special” day.
> 
> I take a little bit of a different tack to the Princess title than you do. To me, the title is extremely appropriate because the characteristics are so similar to the stereotypical historical title. Nobility – that by birthright/blood right alone she is superior and to be treated not as an equal or partner, but as a better (I laughingly say the “more equal” half). Lack of responsibility – they aren’t “Queens” because they don’t even do that amount of “work”, they are held to no standard or requirements, they are to be loved, adored, showered with gifts and praise, and nothing is to be expected of them at any time. Impetuous – being a Princess means never having to grow up, and being mischievous is not only accepted it is expected. Having tantrum time and taking out all of life’s frustrations on the closest person available (for the real Princess –the ladies in waiting, for our Princesses – US), with of course no reciprocation or understanding if it occurs to them. Authority – no one but the King and Queen can challenge, which includes any Prince’s that might be hanging around. And while the Princess might dally with a Knight, as much as he hopes, she’ll still be dreaming of that Prince from the faraway land that what’shername met…
> 
> ...


Oh this was my ex wife to the tee...My favorite example...I worked two hours away from home so had to get up way earlier in the morning than she did. One morning, I knew she was going to have a busy morning, so I made a pot of coffee before I left so it would be ready for her. She was SOOO appreciative at my thoughtfulness, and raved about how it really helped her out. So I kept doing it. Every morning for quite a while. Then one morning, I was running behind, and I didn't make the pot of coffee. She called me at work to let me know how I had ruined her day because it threw everything off for her, and she was late for this, and had to skip doing that. It was a good ten minute rant about how thoughtless I was, never thinking of anyone but myself....


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



ET1SSJonota said:


> My experience has not been that women aren’t “violent”, just that they aren’t aggressively/angrily violent. I’ve had numerous women throughout my life poke/slap/hit/bite “playfully”. The problem in my case is I have some sort of issue with being struck (that I don’t feel particularly bad about), in particular anywhere on my head. So the oh-so-cliché “slap to the face” in the movies nearly makes me see red when performed in real life, regardless of who it is or if the reason they’re doing it is to be cute.
> 
> I completely agree on the restraining – but much as CM noted, “touching” a woman in a physically forceful way is frowned upon, even restraining against her will, as the man is just supposed to “take it”. Did I mention I hate double standards?


I know this might sound controversial, but I feel that some double standards between the sexes are acceptable because of biological / physiological differences.

Before we were even dating , my wife was the first and only woman to slap me to the face. We were always good friends and she was my confidante. 
We had a huge falling out because of another girl I was seeing who my wife strongly disliked.

Lol, I was too shocked to respond, but I couldn't bring myself to hit her physically or even get angry with her. 
* sigh.*
Maybe back then we were in love and didn't know it...


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*

the double standard thing is now rampant in the US vis a vis education. I don't have the numbers, but the rate of women getting accepted to colleges clearly is much higher than men. We can debate the causes, but there is a double standard.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



Caribbean Man said:


> I know this might sound controversial, but I feel that some double standards between the sexes are acceptable because of biological / physiological differences.
> 
> Before we were even dating , my wife was the first and only woman to slap me to the face. We were always good friends and she was my confidante.
> We had a huge falling out because of another girl I was seeing who my wife strongly disliked.
> ...


My point was that to a large number of people these double standards are acceptable - but they shouldn't be. I myself admit that it feels less egregious an offense to be struck by a woman. In my case, it really only bothers me if it is on the face/head. However, society expects men to show restraint... is that too much to ask of a woman?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



ET1SSJonota said:


> I take a little bit of a different tack to the Princess title than you do. To me, the title is extremely appropriate because the characteristics are so similar to the stereotypical historical title. Nobility – that by birthright/blood right alone she is superior and to be treated not as an equal or partner, but as a better (I laughingly say the “more equal” half). Lack of responsibility – they aren’t “Queens” because they don’t even do that amount of “work”, they are held to no standard or requirements, they are to be loved, adored, showered with gifts and praise, and nothing is to be expected of them at any time. Impetuous – being a Princess means never having to grow up, and being mischievous is not only accepted it is expected. Having tantrum time and taking out all of life’s frustrations on the closest person available (for the real Princess –the ladies in waiting, for our Princesses – US), with of course no reciprocation or understanding if it occurs to them. Authority – no one but the King and Queen can challenge, which includes any Prince’s that might be hanging around. And while the Princess might dally with a Knight, as much as he hopes, she’ll still be dreaming of that Prince from the faraway land that what’shername met…
> 
> While that might be all a little bit overblown, the quickest easiest examples I can give is the common theme(s) we hear from married men. Once something starts to be given, generally we get good reception, recognition, reciprocity, excitement, and pleasure in response.
> 
> This could be anything: backrubs, gifts, candies, date nights, extra chores around the house, super dad duties, etc. Over time, these things morph from being individual gifts of affection and love to being expectations or flat out duties. They are no longer thankful for these things. Shortly after this phase comes the nitpicking phase, where each of the now expected duties is transformed further into items to be critiqued. The backrub isn’t long enough, isn’t deep enough, didn’t use lotion, focused too much on the butt or the boobs. The gifts are too infrequent, too cheap, not thought out enough, too late, etc. The candies aren’t the right kind, aren’t what she’s craving.


 did you know they have a name for this condition....

*The Princess Syndrome*.. of course.. Here is just one article 

Princess Syndrome: 5 Ways to Rescue Your Daughter from the Kingdom of “Me” ...it said "Beauty is desirable and not negative, but communicating to your daughter that her personal worth is wrapped up in dressing and looking beautiful is not healthy. "..

Talks about how "FRIENDS matter" because she will mimic behaviors.....don't feed the monster...and I like what it said (below)....it gave a little spin on the old time Princess vs the Modern Princess.. (In my mind, I tend to view it similar to this, just as I had my own spin on White Knights in Caribbean Man's thread)...I tend to look at these things through old fashioned Romantic eyes of adoration for 1 special lover not taking advantage....but yeah.. this is not the reality for many -I get that...and everything you said in your post, I wholly agree...none of this behavior is OK...it's very damaging to our husbands....



> *Role Models*: Our culture loves to impress upon girls the power of the princess. It isn’t all bad. * In past generations, princesses were beautiful, helpless and dependent upon males to rescue them and give them a happy ending. They were also sweet spirited, but fragile. The modern day princess is entitled, independent, in control, gorgeous, wealthy and popular.* Sort through the books, movies and TV shows and offer those with heroines whose values you support. Stories offer a powerful medium for life lessons and your daughter will learn behaviors from what she watches and reads. No need to forbid princess movies, but be prepared to have a conversation about what she is observing. Ask your daughter questions to help her evaluate the values of the characters: “What do you think about what she did?”; “Do we treat others like that?”; “Do you need to look like her”; “Would she still be a good person even if she didn’t have a pretty dress?”.





ET1SSJonota said:


> *The date nights weren’t thought out as well as Mary Susan’s husband did for her anniversary, didn’t make fireworks in the sky, and no celebrities were invited to perform for her.*


 In our marriage, for example.. if I waited on HIM to plan a date night, or even a small vacation, we'd never leave the house.. I am the mover/ shaker /planner between us....

What I get in return is a happy husband ...willing to go anywhere I want, the sky is the limit, he knows I would never over spend...he praises me for the places I choose and we build beautiful memories ...I am more particular over him...I love cabins in the woods & hot tubs under trees... so he is happy to allow me to take the lead, doing all that traveling research online while he is at work....that's just always been our way....

I could throw my hands in the air and say..."Why can't my husband surprise me once in a while" instead of me doing all the work".. but I can see how he is just not as detailed as me, not the meticulous researcher I am...he'd never find half the places I have, so why expect him to do it...when I get so excited when I find that perfect destination all on my own.. it doesn't matter to me who plans it.. just the fun & excitement we have once we get there - that is the thrill of it.. it's all about "attitude" I guess..



> *The extra chores were just our “fair share”, and it was about time we did something more around the house to help her out.
> And of course, my favorite complaint from the stay-at-home wife of how the “work” for the Dad at home is a vacation from their job, so doesn’t count as work; but for the woman they’re job is 24/7 so the man should do everything when he gets home*.


 I see some of this on this forum...and I always feel  for the husband when I do... ..I've always felt my Husband had it harder...the load heavier....didn't matter how many kids we had, didn't matter even when we didn't have a dryer and I hung all the cloth diapers on the line... I was happy ...just thankful we could afford for me to stay home... 



> *We’ve all heard the “joke” saying: Men get married hoping the woman won’t change, but she does. Women get married hoping the man will change, but he doesn’t. While clearly this isn’t going to work to describe all marriages, in many ways, it fits to a lot of them*.


 I would be the 1st to tell any woman to never marry expecting the man to change.. what you see is what you get, if anything...it will loose a little luster along the way....

In our marriage, my H never changed ... but that's good! I knew when I married him what he was.. what I could depend on... he has remained steadfast....I'd say he's grown more in confidence getting a better Job down the road & all we have accomplished together ...he is very proud of his family.. we look to each other in getting where we are... all a team effort....

I changed more than he did... but I got better ...he'd say I am like a fine wine.. I slowly lost my religion...and became more sexual ...when we married I had some repressive hang ups with oral sex , always wanted the lights out, under a sheet...just shy about my body being exposed... even to my H.. crazy I know !.... I very much regret these things..they should have never been.. 



> *I think the striking double standard isn’t discussed enough, and is all-too-entirely accepted by the female side.* Still going along with the “more equal” clause, it seems the generally accepted (but not out loud) female body being weaker makes this double standard acceptable. I myself suffer from the very same bias, so don’t feel I’m just lashing out at the ladies here. I think about all the scenarios I have seen women hit men, and by and large, it doesn’t bother me (except, of course, when I have been the recipient).


 I really haven't seen women here defending this though... the only thing that comes to mind ..and often in the Double standard talk...is the Previous sex partners thing... Men are looked upon as studs for their behavior....but women are not seen in this light....Many men do not care... but those who do... and have slept around themselves...this boils women more than anything..


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*

I struggle with the aptly named Princess Syndrome because I usually try to figure out people's motivations. In this case, the slow, insidious nature of the evolution from awesome partner to princess is such that I can't detect whether it is simply an undesireable but semi-natural reaction to the doting, or a coldly calculated ploy to increase the incoming and decrease the outgoing efforts. One is understandable, if upsetting. The other is disgusting and someone with those motivations should be ditched ASAP.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



SimplyAmorous said:


> I really haven't seen women here defending this though... the only thing that comes to mind ..and often in the Double standard talk...is the Previous sex partners thing... Men are looked upon as studs for their behavior....but women are not seen in this light....Many men do not care... but those who do... and have slept around themselves...this boils women more than anything..


I find that double standard as bad as any, however, I think more thought would show there to be more to it than simple double standards. For me personally, I think a guy who sleeps around with dozens of women is a schmuck (sorry if this describes any TAMers, my personal opinion). I've heard more than a few women describe such men as "man wh0res". I've also heard some of those SAME women get very defensive if any women is described as a slvt or wh0re, due to the "shaming" aspect. Having it both ways is another double standard, isn't it? 

As those words fit someone who has casual sex - why the focus on avoiding the word? If it describes you, and you're okay with the activity, then why fight the "label"? We as a culture have gotten to where we fight any consequence to our decision... and its ridiculous. Therein lies the rub: I don't think the promiscuity thing truly is a double standard to a lot of people. I think men just don't care NEARLY as much about being called names about how many people they've slept with. 

I'd say to those who don't like the labels the same thing I've said to the executive type females in light of the "ban bossy" campaign: the WORD isn't the issue. The word is simply a descriptive tool. If you have no issue with the behavior that the word is describing, then EMBRACE that truth, and move past the guilt you're putting on yourself. 

::zips up flamesuit::


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

*Re: Can women hurt men?? What is your gripe -what is the equivalent to "Male Chauvini*



ET1SSJonota said:


> My point was that to a large number of people these double standards are acceptable - but they shouldn't be. I myself admit that it feels less egregious an offense to be struck by a woman. In my case, it really only bothers me if it is on the face/head. *However, society expects men to show restraint... is that too much to ask of a woman?*


You are correct.

I never really examined it from that angle.


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