# The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.



## SimplyAmorous

*The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

I am starting this thread out with a







...these are my personal feelings... not everyone is wired like me or wants the same things in Life & Matrimony.. As with any thread.. take my views with a grain of salt.. Feel free to expand upon this, open this discussion with your variation of thoughts & feelings.. what works for You & yours... 

Ever since joining this forum, it's something I've noticed said time & time again, always defended...yet it's rubbed me the wrong way.. "the spirit of it" mostly...... I would CRINGE living with it.. and frankly.. if my husband had it or I...it would cause our romance to slowly wither & DIE..









Upon reading another of Harley's books (Author of His Needs, Her Needs) .... I came upon his explaining IT... he has it listed as one of the "Love Busters" (opposite of our emotional needs, this is what will put a fork through us, losing that loving feeling) ...among those are: 

*1*. Selfish Demands
*2*. Disrespectful Judgments
*3*. Angry Outbursts
*4*. Dishonesty
*5*. Annoying Habits.... and 

*6*. *"Independent Behavior"*...

How often do we hear others argue that true happiness comes from within, that each person should be responsible for his or her own happiness...seems a shift from the 60's  "ME ME ...it's all about me" generation... we no longer believe we can make or should even try to make another person happy, even the one we took vows to Love, Honor & Cherish... that just doesn't work for me..

Deep down we all know we have *an affect *on other people...what we do, our words, our attitude, our actions speak, giving of our time, our willingness to "be there" when it may not have been convenient even can mean a great deal to someone.. those "little things".....we've all brightened another's day ...

And we've also hurt someone.... Basically... we can also make others "miserable" with our selfishness , and thoughtlessness if we're not careful..

Questions to ask: Are you making some of your decisions as if your spouse doesn't exist...this being habitual, are they Ok with it? ...Do you ask / seek how the other feels about your plans, or just forge ahead & do what pleases *you*? 










This Love Buster represents any activity that fails to take your spouse's feelings & interests into account..... With a lack of empathy here, it's easy to fall into "independent behavior" as we're conveniently pushing aside the other's feelings, making light of them...if they are on the passive side, they may push down their protests, but feel the pain none the less, or in due time.. a divide takes place, snapping begins.... 

Seems some have been conditioned to react .."You're not my Mother (or father), "Stop trying to control me!" ... "Why should I have to have Your permission for something I want to do?"... "It's my body, I'll do what I want with it"...

Every situation is different, of course.. there ARE selfish controlling spouses... don't misunderstand..
BUT what if... it really has nothing ever to do with CONTROL....but instead about "THOUGHTFULNESS"... You're being controlled when someone forces you to do something that's GOOD for HIM or her, but BAD for you.. for their selfish gain, generally. 

But "Thoughfulness" is entirely different.. You're being thoughtful when you decide not to do something that's good for you but hurtful /inconsiderate to your spouse (find that middle ground as best you can)..... this gets to the heart of what Independent Behavior really is...Thoughtlessness..It's running roughshod over the feelings of your spouse so you can be a little happier, getting your cake, but they are missing theirs. 

*** A wise alternative to Independent Behavior is Interdependent Behavior....which benefits both of you simultaneously. You are both happy and neither of you suffers... making decisions with each other's interests and feelings in mind.


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## meson

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

There should really be a balance with independent behavior. My wife and I each do things together and we do things indepentantly. It becomes a love buster when one or both spouses feel left out or neglected. 

To me being independent adds to the marriage in a way that can be shared second hand. We both talk about things we do indepentantly and are fully aware of what we do. 

For things like decisions we each consider what the other wants as well. It's like you said about being thoughtful. So with decisions we are not really too independent but with some activities we really are.


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## jorgegene

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

"Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and cling to his wife. And the two shall become one.
So; they are no longer two, but one flesh".

That's the ideal. Hard to bring to realization given our culture and our own individual selfishness, but it is possible I believe to a large degree, and I think speaks positively to what you are trying to say.


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## Rowan

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

You'll note that Harley doesn't list infidelity as one of the Lovebusters. That's because it's covered by Dishonesty and Independent Behavior. In the Harley construct, independent behavior isn't a reference to having independent activities that you enjoy doing alone. Rather, independent behavior is doing things without taking your spouse into consideration. 

Going out with your friends and staying out 'til all hours knowing that your spouse is waiting at home and wondering where you are. Accepting a promotion that requires tons of travel, or even a move, without talking it over with your spouse. Having friends of the opposite sex when you know your spouse isn't okay with it. Having an affair. Basically, any time you're living your life as if your spouse and their feelings/thoughts either don't exist or don't matter. Those are independent behaviors. 

A hobby you do independently of your spouse isn't a Lovebuster sort of independent behavior as long as your spouse is on board with that activity. Dr. Harley is all about joint agreement in marriages.


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## SunCMars

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

For this "ideal" interdependence to occur, the Marriage must be made either in Heaven......or through blind luck.....not!

Luck is not blind nor is [our] life's main thrust...a willful choice.

A sailboat is always at the mercy of the winds of fate.


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## *Deidre*

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



SimplyAmorous said:


> I am starting this thread out with a
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...these are my personal feelings... not everyone is wired like me or wants the same things in Life & Matrimony.. As with any thread.. take my views with a grain of salt.. Feel free to expand upon this, open this discussion with your variation of thoughts & feelings.. what works for You & yours...
> 
> Ever since joining this forum, it's something I've noticed said time & time again, always defended...yet it's rubbed me the wrong way.. "the spirit of it" mostly...... I would CRINGE living with it.. and frankly.. if my husband had it or I...it would cause our romance to slowly wither & DIE..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Upon reading another of Harley's books (Author of His Needs, Her Needs) .... I came upon his explaining IT... he has it listed as one of the "Love Busters" (opposite of our emotional needs, this is what will put a fork through us, losing that loving feeling) ...among those are:
> 
> *1*. Selfish Demands
> *2*. Disrespectful Judgments
> *3*. Angry Outbursts
> *4*. Dishonesty
> *5*. Annoying Habits.... and
> 
> *6*. *"Independent Behavior"*...
> 
> How often do we hear others argue that true happiness comes from within, that each person should be responsible for his or her own happiness...seems a shift from the 60's  "ME ME ...it's all about me" generation... we no longer believe we can make or should even try to make another person happy, even the one we took vows to Love, Honor & Cherish... that just doesn't work for me..
> 
> Deep down we all know we have *an affect *on other people...what we do, our words, our attitude, our actions speak, giving of our time, our willingness to "be there" when it may not have been convenient even can mean a great deal to someone.. those "little things".....we've all brightened another's day ...
> 
> And we've also hurt someone.... Basically... we can also make others "miserable" with our selfishness , and thoughtlessness if we're not careful..
> 
> Questions to ask: Are you making some of your decisions as if your spouse doesn't exist...this being habitual, are they Ok with it? ...Do you ask / seek how the other feels about your plans, or just forge ahead & do what pleases *you*?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Love Buster represents any activity that fails to take your spouse's feelings & interests into account..... With a lack of empathy here, it's easy to fall into "independent behavior" as we're conveniently pushing aside the other's feelings, making light of them...if they are on the passive side, they may push down their protests, but feel the pain none the less, or in due time.. a divide takes place, snapping begins....
> 
> Seems some have been conditioned to react .."You're not my Mother (or father), "Stop trying to control me!" ... "Why should I have to have Your permission for something I want to do?"... "It's my body, I'll do what I want with it"...
> 
> Every situation is different, of course.. there ARE selfish controlling spouses... don't misunderstand..
> BUT what if... it really has nothing ever to do with CONTROL....but instead about "THOUGHTFULNESS"... You're being controlled when someone forces you to do something that's GOOD for HIM or her, but BAD for you.. for their selfish gain, generally.
> 
> But "Thoughfulness" is entirely different.. You're being thoughtful when you decide not to do something that's good for you but hurtful /inconsiderate to your spouse (find that middle ground as best you can)..... this gets to the heart of what Independent Behavior really is...Thoughtlessness..It's running roughshod over the feelings of your spouse so you can be a little happier, getting your cake, but they are missing theirs.
> 
> *** A wise alternative to Independent Behavior is Interdependent Behavior....which benefits both of you simultaneously. You are both happy and neither of you suffers... making decisions with each other's interests and feelings in mind.


I love this, and needed to read it.  Thank you for posting this.


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## SimplyAmorous

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



Rowan said:


> You'll note that Harley doesn't list infidelity as one of the Lovebusters. That's because it's covered by Dishonesty and Independent Behavior. In the Harley construct, independent behavior isn't a reference to having independent activities that you enjoy doing alone. * Rather, independent behavior is doing things without taking your spouse into consideration.*
> 
> *Going out with your friends and staying out 'til all hours knowing that your spouse is waiting at home and wondering where you are. Accepting a promotion that requires tons of travel, or even a move, without talking it over with your spouse. Having friends of the opposite sex when you know your spouse isn't okay with it. Having an affair. Basically, any time you're living your life as if your spouse and their feelings/thoughts either don't exist or don't matter. Those are independent behaviors.*
> 
> *A hobby you do independently of your spouse isn't a Lovebuster sort of independent behavior as long as your spouse is on board with that activity. Dr. Harley is all about joint agreement in marriages.*


VERY GOOD Summary of the types of things he is meaning....we see these stories / sort of issues often here...

Appreciate you posting these examples as I really didn't give any.. ..so thank you @Rowan ...


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## DustyDog

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



jorgegene said:


> "Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and cling to his wife. And the two shall become one.
> So; they are no longer two, but one flesh".


I've experienced this. It absolutely requires that both people are participating fully; active listening, conversations with lots of "wait, can you explain what you just said" questions so that you are truly communicating intimately. If only one person is this open, then the two will never become one.


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## SimplyAmorous

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



jorgegene said:


> *"Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and cling to his wife. And the two shall become one.
> So; they are no longer two, but one flesh".
> 
> That's the ideal. Hard to bring to realization given our culture and our own individual selfishness, but it is possible I believe to a large degree, and I think speaks positively to what you are trying to say.*


Personally I've always loved this scripture, took these things to







in my own marriage...always felt this from him too. 

I come across this quote on what "Love is" not too long ago.. I've read a lot of stuff in my time.. but THIS.. just really spoke it, so I felt... even without a spiritual / scriptural take on it ...

How our roots become so entwined...they start to grow together.... (this 1st isn't the full quote, so I wanted to add the 2nd as well)..








...


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## SimplyAmorous

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



meson said:


> There should really be a balance with independent behavior. My wife and I each do things together and we do things indepentantly. It becomes a love buster when one or both spouses feel left out or neglected.
> 
> To me being independent adds to the marriage in a way that can be shared second hand. We both talk about things we do indepentantly and are fully aware of what we do.
> 
> For things like decisions we each consider what the other wants as well. It's like you said about being thoughtful. So with decisions we are not really too independent but with some activities we really are.


It varies between couples how much time / togetherness they desire from each other... I'm pretty sure myself & husband are higher on the bar in comparison to the average (beings we're both "Time" & "Touchers" , love language wise)... it hasn't been a tug of war with either of us feeling he's too busy.. or I'm too busy, showing too much independence from each other.. 

In "His Needs / Her Needs", this particular book about parenting - still the Parents NEED their time alone, this segment ...  Click HERE speaks how a couple need a minimum of *15 hours* of undivided attention a week ...for intimate affection, sexual fulfillment, intimate conversation & recreational companionship... that could be a little over 2 hours a day if you spread it over a week's time.. 

We're probably not the norm...I'd rather go shopping with him over any girlfriend.. (not that I like to shop, actually I HATE it -give me Amazon & Ebay please!)....we seem to enjoy most everything together.. except he's went to Gun shows with friends, and I love a good rock concert that he'd rather not get his ear drums blown out seeing... 

I'll go to his coin shows with him, he appreciates that... In our earlier years.. I'd even go to the Junk Yard with him... I wanted to help!


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## SimplyAmorous

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



DustyDog said:


> I've experienced this. * It absolutely requires that both people are participating fully; active listening, conversations with lots of "wait, can you explain what you just said" questions so that you are truly communicating intimately. * If only one person is this open, then the two will never become one.










... asking for a little clarity shows you are paying attention / engaged... I've always been big on asking "open ended questions" no matter how many years a couple's been together, we're still learning... I spoke of the importance of this sort of intimate communication in this thread...

>> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/long-t...ng-intimacy-insight-open-ended-questions.html


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## Ikaika

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

The me me me part: it is true we tend in society for the selfish, "what am I going to get out of this" rather than what can I give to this relationship. However as a personal example, I,stopped drinking, started exercising and generally taking care of myself because I was tired of how I felt. Though it sounds selfish, I knew it would be a positive impact on my marriage as well. But, to stick to it, I needed to change my lifestyle for me to make it stick. 

So, sometimes we need to change for ourselves, especially when it results in a positive for those around us. Now, of course my addictive personality means pushing my 55 year old body to extremes. My wife does think I'm crazy working out with 20 and 30 year old who are clearly stronger and in better shape. I liked being pushed to the brink. However, my stamina in the bedroom has greatly increased and at the point she never complains 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Steve1000

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

My favorite verse about marriage is: 

1 Corinthians 7:27 Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek a wife.


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## DustyDog

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



SimplyAmorous said:


> ... asking for a little clarity shows you are paying attention / engaged... I've always been big on asking "open ended questions" no matter how many years a couple's been together, we're still learning... I spoke of the importance of this sort of intimate communication in this thread...
> 
> >> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/long-t...ng-intimacy-insight-open-ended-questions.html


If your partner lacks self-esteem, then any clarifying question, "when you said xxx, were you referring to....?" comes across as an invasion of privacy.

Such open communication requires a willingness to be vulnerable. Our society teaches this out of people.


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## SimplyAmorous

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



DustyDog said:


> If your partner lacks self-esteem, then any clarifying question, "when you said xxx, were you referring to....?" comes across as an invasion of privacy.
> 
> *Such open communication requires a willingness to be vulnerable. Our society teaches this out of people.*


I gotta be honest Dusty Dog.. if I was met with someone who felt everything (even half) of what I was asking was an invasion of their dear privacy.. I'd be pulling my hair out...it would be frustrating... it's not something I've ever been met with -with my husband....

He opened himself up, never dissed one question from me...and I was a bit of a driller in our early years ..I was seeking to REALLY KNOW HIM, what he was about.... though 8 yrs ago we had a deep discussion about this when I was making a thread on it.. and he admitted he wasn't fully vulnerable.. it came easier if I pulled it out of him.. over him coming to me with "vulnerability" ..is how I would explain that... 

But I clearly GET that we need to be very very careful WHO we are vulnerable with....many are not sincere, their intentions could be suspect, manipulative even......we need sweet time to get to know someone - to see if their words line up with their actions, are they trustworthy.... 

I keep throwing threads at you here.. but I did one on this too!! I feel the subject is very much misunderstood... 

I will copy & paste some of my opening post :

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...r-its-pain-its-beauty-how-vulnerable-you.html



> Trenton put this link on here about a year ago- It is one I never forgot, I found its lessons profound.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brene Brown: The Power of vulnerability
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (this is 20 min of listening)
> 
> No woman has studied the subject of *Connection */ *Shame */ *Vulnerability *more than Brene Brown. She originally set out to prove "Vulnerability" is nothing but WEAKNESS - betrayal even! Her aim was to trample it . What she came to learn was such a struggle for her, this Therapist had to see a Therapist! :scratchhead:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Connection is why we are here -it gives purpose & meaning to our lives".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "*Shame* = Disconnected -feeling we are not worthy of connection"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> With the thousands of stories pouring in to her in her research spanning 10 yrs, she decided to separate the "Whole Hearted" to the "Broken" still struggling with "connection" in Love & Relationships, and the undeniable truth was.....allowing oneself to be vulnerable is a STRENGTH, what separated the 2 was simply ...."they BELIEVED they are worthy of connection, a strong sense of belonging", this allowed them to be more vulnerable before others.
> 
> But so often we FEAR putting ourselves out there, can not bear the risk of HURT, we try to NUMB our emotions -but we can't numb our emotions, so many turn to addictions (drinking, over eating, etc). This is not our answer.
> 
> 
> *** Brene learned this is how the "Whole hearted" live:
> 
> *1.* *Courage *to be IMPERFECT
> *2.* *Compassion *to be kind to ourselves 1st
> *3*. *Connection *- as a result of Authenticity- the people let go of who they thought they should be -In order to BE who they are
> *4. **Fully embraced Vulnerability*- that what makes them vulnerable makes them beautiful.
> 
> She Ended with this... "Let ourselves be seen, deeply seen, vulnerably seen, love with our whole hearts, even if no guarantee, Practice gratitude ...."can I love you THIS much"- "I'm just so Grateful" - and Believe we are "enough".
Click to expand...


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## notmyrealname4

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



Rowan said:


> In the Harley construct, *independent behavior isn't a reference to having independent activities that you enjoy doing alone. Rather, independent behavior is doing things without taking your spouse into consideration. *
> 
> 
> 
> *A hobby you do independently of your spouse isn't a Lovebuster sort of independent behavior as long as your spouse is on board with that activity*. Dr. Harley is all about joint agreement in marriages.



Most of my hobbies are done alone. Like 90% of them.

My husband is fine with that.

So, although I am personally very independent; I don't do things without considering the effect on our marriage, or my husband's feelings.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The 15 hour a week thing ( the amount of time you're supposed to spend together doing "us" stuff?)

We might get 6 tops. Going to the grocery store is one. We have a lot of fun doing that; I know it sounds stupid. But even then, we'll wander around separately a bit too.

We like to watch vintage TV and classic movies together. Not much talking during the show; but we usually share our opinions about it afterwards.


But I don't think we're "independent" of one another. Even though it might sound like it from my description.


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## EllisRedding

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



notmyrealname4 said:


> Most of my hobbies are done alone. Like 90% of them.
> 
> My husband is fine with that.
> 
> So, although I am personally very independent; I don't do things without considering the effect on our marriage, or my husband's feelings.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> The 15 hour a week thing ( the amount of time you're supposed to spend together doing "us" stuff?)
> 
> We might get 6 tops. Going to the grocery store is one. We have a lot of fun doing that; I know it sounds stupid. But even then, we'll wander around separately a bit too.
> 
> We like to watch vintage TV and classic movies together. Not much talking during the show; but we usually share our opinions about it afterwards.
> 
> 
> But I don't think we're "independent" of one another. Even though it might sound like it from my description.


Similar here, most of my hobbies are done separate from my W, and vice versa. We are both fine with that, as many times our hobbies are done during times where we wouldn't be spending time with each other anyhow (i.e. me going to the gym at 5am each day before work while everyone is still asleep, and my W doing her own things while I am at work).

The 15hrs a week thing boggles my mind lol. Most weeks I would say getting 4hrs time together (no kids) is probably considered a good week. I see no reason to have some predetermined hours a week you are "supposed" to spend together, all that does it make it a chore, not really the intended purpose. Really, I focus on making the most out of the time when you do get it with your SO.


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## farsidejunky

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



SimplyAmorous said:


> I am starting this thread out with a
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...these are my personal feelings... not everyone is wired like me or wants the same things in Life & Matrimony.. As with any thread.. take my views with a grain of salt.. Feel free to expand upon this, open this discussion with your variation of thoughts & feelings.. what works for You & yours...
> 
> Ever since joining this forum, it's something I've noticed said time & time again, always defended...yet it's rubbed me the wrong way.. "the spirit of it" mostly...... I would CRINGE living with it.. and frankly.. if my husband had it or I...it would cause our romance to slowly wither & DIE..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Upon reading another of Harley's books (Author of His Needs, Her Needs) .... I came upon his explaining IT... he has it listed as one of the "Love Busters" (opposite of our emotional needs, this is what will put a fork through us, losing that loving feeling) ...among those are:
> 
> *1*. Selfish Demands
> *2*. Disrespectful Judgments
> *3*. Angry Outbursts
> *4*. Dishonesty
> *5*. Annoying Habits.... and
> 
> *6*. *"Independent Behavior"*...
> 
> How often do we hear others argue that true happiness comes from within, that each person should be responsible for his or her own happiness...seems a shift from the 60's  "ME ME ...it's all about me" generation... we no longer believe we can make or should even try to make another person happy, even the one we took vows to Love, Honor & Cherish... that just doesn't work for me..
> 
> Deep down we all know we have *an affect *on other people...what we do, our words, our attitude, our actions speak, giving of our time, our willingness to "be there" when it may not have been convenient even can mean a great deal to someone.. those "little things".....we've all brightened another's day ...
> 
> And we've also hurt someone.... Basically... we can also make others "miserable" with our selfishness , and thoughtlessness if we're not careful..
> 
> Questions to ask: Are you making some of your decisions as if your spouse doesn't exist...this being habitual, are they Ok with it? ...Do you ask / seek how the other feels about your plans, or just forge ahead & do what pleases *you*?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Love Buster represents any activity that fails to take your spouse's feelings & interests into account..... With a lack of empathy here, it's easy to fall into "independent behavior" as we're conveniently pushing aside the other's feelings, making light of them...if they are on the passive side, they may push down their protests, but feel the pain none the less, or in due time.. a divide takes place, snapping begins....
> 
> Seems some have been conditioned to react .."You're not my Mother (or father), "Stop trying to control me!" ... "Why should I have to have Your permission for something I want to do?"... "It's my body, I'll do what I want with it"...
> 
> Every situation is different, of course.. there ARE selfish controlling spouses... don't misunderstand..
> BUT what if... it really has nothing ever to do with CONTROL....but instead about "THOUGHTFULNESS"... You're being controlled when someone forces you to do something that's GOOD for HIM or her, but BAD for you.. for their selfish gain, generally.
> 
> But "Thoughfulness" is entirely different.. You're being thoughtful when you decide not to do something that's good for you but hurtful /inconsiderate to your spouse (find that middle ground as best you can)..... this gets to the heart of what Independent Behavior really is...Thoughtlessness..It's running roughshod over the feelings of your spouse so you can be a little happier, getting your cake, but they are missing theirs.
> 
> *** A wise alternative to Independent Behavior is Interdependent Behavior....which benefits both of you simultaneously. You are both happy and neither of you suffers... making decisions with each other's interests and feelings in mind.


Nice post as always, SA.

I can't speak for the general TAM populace, but when I say the words "his/her happiness is not your responsibility", it is normally in response to a situation where the person is codependent. 

There is an incredibly fine line between caring about your spouse's happiness and the "must fix it", nice guy (or girl) trap.


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## giddiot

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

Wow can I relate to this. Thank you. It's a soul killer even in friendship.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jld

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



farsidejunky said:


> Nice post as always, SA.
> 
> I can't speak for the general TAM populace, but when I say the words "his/her happiness is not your responsibility", it is normally in response to a situation where the person is codependent.
> 
> *There is an incredibly fine line between caring about your spouse's happiness and the "must fix it", nice guy (or girl) trap.*


I think this is an important point. You have to look at the specifics of the marriage. Some people _do_ need to start caring and taking responsibility for their spouse's happiness. Some "must fix it" could go a long way in certain relationships.


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## meson

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



SimplyAmorous said:


> *It varies between couples how much time / togetherness they desire from each other... *I'm pretty sure myself & husband are higher on the bar in comparison to the average (beings we're both "Time" & "Touchers" , love language wise)... it hasn't been a tug of war with either of us feeling he's too busy.. or I'm too busy, showing too much independence from each other..
> 
> In "His Needs / Her Needs", this particular book about parenting - still the Parents NEED their time alone, this segment ...  Click HERE speaks how a couple need a minimum of *15 hours* of undivided attention a week ...for intimate affection, sexual fulfillment, intimate conversation & recreational companionship... that could be a little over 2 hours a day if you spread it over a week's time..
> 
> We're probably not the norm...I'd rather go shopping with him over any girlfriend.. (not that I like to shop, actually I HATE it -give me Amazon & Ebay please!)....we seem to enjoy most everything together.. except he's went to Gun shows with friends, and I love a good rock concert that he'd rather not get his ear drums blown out seeing...
> 
> I'll go to his coin shows with him, he appreciates that... In our earlier years.. I'd even go to the Junk Yard with him... I wanted to help!


I think the value of 15hrs/wk was given as a goal for couples to use to try to rebuild their relationships. I think in healthy marriages this number varies significantly. It does vary from couple to couple and spouse to spouse. For us it varies over time as well. 

There are times when we may spend 15-30minutes per day of quality time for days in a row. Rarely are we able to put in two hours but yet it's enough time to keep it going. I think the emphasis should be more on the quality of time spent rather than the amount. I get that Harley is trying to convince people that don't put time into their spouses to do so and giving them a goal. 

For us our quality time varies like a tide chart and our independent behavior increases at low tide. At high tides we sync back our lives and emotions. The freshness and rejuvenation from independent activities is essential to a growing couple in my mind. 

A few weeks ago Mrs. meson and myself went backpacking for a week where we were together 24/7 and had a blast going day to day largely unplanned until the day and sometimes changing plans at a whimsy. We began doing without talking. We saw what needed to be done and did it. Since we were alone for 98% of the time we each re-clicked on body language and reading each other. 

One day we ran across a field of especially ripe blueberries and huckleberries and while we were picking some to eat I saw a great campsite with an existing fire ring and some very dry dead wood in a valley beyond the field. Normally I'm against camp fires and rarely do them because they are environmentally damaging but they are superfun to Mrs. meson. So I handed her my small nalgene and said fill this up for desert tonight and I will make a campfire. This was a great way to finish the week. That last night really filled her need. 

Last weekend we were busy and the time we were spending together was a low tide section. However because I listen and monitor Mrs. mesons body language I knew she needed steamed crabs. So I searched and found a crab house close to our house that we didn't know about so I was going to surprise her by just taking her there when she got back from some independent activities. Again the crabs and beer hit her need spot on.

My point with these rambling examples is that time together can and should be targeted to maximize fulfillment of needs. They are innocuous mini-dates that continue our courtship and feed our souls. Upping the quality of the time spent means that a couple can be more and do more independantly which I think is healthy for a marriage.

Quite frankly the philosophy that we are one-flesh is a prescription for marital discontent. SA Husband doesn't spend time here like you do and that's fine because you do share your experience here with him. I wish Harley had chosen another word for this like "unilateral without regard forthe spouse" because for me and my marriage independence is what pulled my marriage back together and is essential. Becoming one flesh is what built a coffin for which we were nailing the lid on when I woke up and realized that we weren't who we married any more.


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



notmyrealname4 said:


> Most of my hobbies are done alone. Like 90% of them.
> 
> My husband is fine with that.
> 
> So, although I am personally very independent; I don't do things without considering the effect on our marriage, or my husband's feelings.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> The 15 hour a week thing ( the amount of time you're supposed to spend together doing "us" stuff?)
> 
> We might get 6 tops. Going to the grocery store is one. We have a lot of fun doing that; I know it sounds stupid. But even then, we'll wander around separately a bit too.
> 
> We like to watch vintage TV and classic movies together. Not much talking during the show; but we usually share our opinions about it afterwards.
> 
> 
> But I don't think we're "independent" of one another. Even though it might sound like it from my description.


My wife and I have an agreement from what we have experienced in our personalities in our relationship... we understand that Monday through Thursday are often going to be consumed by tasks and work where interaction is going to be minimal, so up to Wednesday is a given that time together is simply going to be a tad fleeting and an interaction with another simply relaxed with dinner and sharing a glass of wine, but on Thursday it is going to be critical that we ramp up the time together or by Saturday there is a noticed difference to how we interact, a pronounced shift away from togetherness that will keep us looking away instead of inward toward another, and it is these times we notice we tend to get into more disagreements.

Taking the time from Thursday on and spending the weekends focused on us, even if with mutual chores, simply works the best... any more than three days distracted is a recipe for arguments to sprout.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



meson said:


> I think the value of 15hrs/wk was given as a goal for couples to use to try to rebuild their relationships. I think in healthy marriages this number varies significantly. It does vary from couple to couple and spouse to spouse. For us it varies over time as well.
> 
> There are times when we may spend 15-30minutes per day of quality time for days in a row. Rarely are we able to put in two hours but yet it's enough time to keep it going. I think the emphasis should be more on the quality of time spent rather than the amount. I get that Harley is trying to convince people that don't put time into their spouses to do so and giving them a goal.


 I can tell you .. why I love and resonate so much with Harley's stuff is... I THINK so much like the man ...even down to his "Radical honesty" stuff.. that's our marriage!! 

We are a prime example of living what this man has taught.... I never even read any of his stuff UNTIL after I joined this forum.. the book I knew about & had read was the Love languages book...not Harley's ..But yeah.. I resonated with everything he said.. and I DO feel when these 10 emotional needs are lacking.. one is susceptible to an affair, as his book is titled. 

I feel somehow naturally we were living most of them....of course we did miss it on 1 AREA ... that we've made up for...

But yeah...I DO crave time with my husband.... I would be annoyed.... Greatly annoyed with a man who didn't want to spend that much time with me.. and I surely wouldn't be brow beating him to do it.... I've said this a number of times on TAM.. I can not stand the idea of being a burden to ANYONE...I have a stick up my a$$ about this... I need a man's







to be into it with me or it all goes to hell... I would just leave them.. 

So yeah...if a man wasn't wired like me.. we'd never get off the ground... but this explains why I am attracted to men who are primary family oriented, romantic , the more sensitive types... 

There is clearly a reason I put a disclaimer at the beginning of this...as I know it's not true for everyone.. Look at @EllisRedding 's example.. 4 hours a week!! and it's OK with both of them!!! Admittedly, I'd never be able to stand that.. I'd deem my husband a workaholic if that was my life.. 

One thing I don't have is a large close knit family (maybe Ellis's wife does -this being a part of her fulfillment to make up for the hrs she doesn't have with him).... I've tried to create this - having 6 kids... I WANTED the added chaos & work... so thankful for them all...they have complete our lives.... 

But I have no siblings.. not close to my mother.. not close to my father.. (I probably see them less than 5 times a year).. then I didn't have a career either.. like many women today which can be demanding & she may be worn out at the end of the day too..just not thinking about time with the hubby...

There is time with girlfriends on occasion...but husband's always been my BEST friend.. the one I'd choose above all...whatever we do.. 

I surely get that there are TIMES we need to take a step back..other things take priority... they closed the shop where Husband works...laid everyone off but 3 guys.. he was one of those.. but he had to get a CDL to keep his job.. I wanted him to STUDY STUDY STUDY....Ignore me [email protected]#... until he got that in his hands (this was urgent)..

I went out of my way to HELP him with this.. joining a "Truckers forum" this past month.... posting pictures I took of the school bus engine, getting a little more clarification for his "Pre-trip inspection"....(His training was from a Bus garage, they took him on -so thankful !... the lady training him didn't know all that - she got her CDL like 30 yrs ago- when Pre-trip's was maybe 3 minutes.. NOT TODAY! .. his Pre-trip took a good hour days ago, when he took the test.. he passed [email protected]#.. we're so excited... Training on this school bus basically saved his job !










THIS took priority over EVERYTHING during this time.. Just as when we were trying to sell our house years ago....WORK WORK WORK...we had a goal, we wanted out of there!.. but still we did it all together, side by side, tool belt around my waist... 

I drilled him for his Testing .. he passed everything the 1st time.. it's good... I even had a poster on the Truckers forum telling me - He should be there asking questions NOT ME -like why isn't he doing the work.. and I defended our "team work" spirit on this.. 

He purposely takes 2 week days off so we'd have more time together while the kids are in school (Playtime!) & I schedule my jobs, even choose jobs around his work schedule so we CAN maximize our time together.. 

I don't see either one of us as "Needy" in a negative way (I could do a post on what that looks like when it drags the other down & it's unhealthy)...

I can handle A LOT on my own, I "manage" our family, every detail financially, scheduling whatever....I never need his help.... it's just what we ENJOY..... we're only here so long, only so many days on this earth ...we should arrange it and manage it to where we get the most Enjoyment out of it... this saying was out of one of my books years ago...










I'd say the Larger issue is...when One marries another who has a very different idea of spending time , they should never assume it will change after the vows.. the way we were before we married has remained steadfast the last 36 yrs... 



> For us our quality time varies like a tide chart and our independent behavior increases at low tide. At high tides we sync back our lives and emotions. *The freshness and rejuvenation from independent activities is essential to a growing couple in my mind. *


 I could say here.. if this is true.. me & my husband SUCK ...we're not living up to it.. we must not be growing = stagnation... we ought to be suffering in some way.. but I don't feel this -at all.

He's never had or ever cared about outside activities , he lives for his family (these have been his words).... oh he may enjoy a few things like coin collecting, metal detecting, he took on a truck project putting it together yrs ago (more for saving $$ over enjoyment though) he also has a fascination with Lock picking.. I sometimes think he should have been a Locksmith - probably not much money in that....but ultimately what needs done around here, working on vehicles, upkeep of house / property....attending our children's activities, doing family things...this is fulfilling enough.. 

Maybe WE are not normal in comparison to the majority here ?? 



> *Quite frankly the philosophy that we are one-flesh is a prescription for marital discontent.* SA Husband doesn't spend time here like you do and that's fine because you do share your experience here with him. I wish Harley had chosen another word for this like "unilateral without regard forthe spouse" because for me and my marriage independence is what pulled my marriage back together and is essential. *Becoming one flesh is what built a coffin for which we were nailing the lid on when I woke up and realized that we weren't who we married any more.*


 It sounds you both changed though, maybe in significant ways ... I can't say we've felt this.. we haven't changed much really.. I can think of a couple on my end...loosing my religion & my heightened sexual NEED...but really...I look back and more so see us growing together through whatever came....like those roots that Love quote spoke of..

But true...I missed some things years ago...I again owe my husband the world for his patience & understanding of me.. I see this completely different over you -probably because our experience has been so different.. 

This just give credence to the wide range of differences among us though...what we want, crave, what works for us...then factoring in some changes over the years..

So you & she were very different couple when you dated then, before kids ??


----------



## jld

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

Congratulations, Mr. SA! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SimplyAmorous

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



jld said:


> Congratulations, Mr. SA!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He had some tough moments @jld...see they just changed the Pre-trip Inspection to be more difficult.. like 2 months ago or something, it's on the DMV site.... the bus company even told him he's their "Guinea Pig" to see what's new & how detailed a new driver has to be -to pass... 

At one point he opened the emergency exit on the ceiling, the buzzer goes off... when shutting it.. it got STUCK.. he couldn't get it off.....the guy did not seem happy...very stressful moment till he got it -thinking he's screwed ... 

This wasn't the best of beginnings either...I guess the Bus company put a creeper & a hammer in the bus to use as this is how they train.... to use a hammer on the tires.. but husband KNEW from all the "You tube videos" this was a NO NO - to NOT do this (conflict of teaching!) ...but he did ask about the creeper & the guy says.. "This isn't looking good for you"...the man just didn't seem in a good mood... 

This was before he even started his "Pre -trip Inspection" which was like an hour of his pointing out every little thing that it's not bent, cracked, broken, leaking, free of dirt, whatever and secured to the frame...a Tremendous amount of repeating yourself to get through this.. he also shook every seat on the bus -having to say "not loose , broken & securely attached to the floor, no damage from kids"

He forgot to say the FRAME itself was not bent or cracked and free of illegal welds.. one of the points he missed- as he did ask afterwards... 

We prayed before he left.. But yeah.. he passed.. a sigh of relief.. if not he could have taken it again.. but we'd have to pay for Private testing... could be as high as $300 a pop as he needed to get this done.. and the DMV is heavily booked & school is starting.. they needed their buses !

He did Great with the driving portion & Air brakes.. they are expecting A LOT more for the Pre-Trip inspection now though.. 

So yeah.. we're celebrating !!


----------



## Scannerguard

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

Hey SA,

I can tell this is a very cerebral discussion here (didn't read all the replies) so I am going to change up the cerebralness a bit, with your permission as the thread starter, and instead of journaling my thoughts, ask a pointed question

I think you know how much I admire your marriage and have stated that here off and on over the years (mostly off).

So, with that disclaimer, so I don't think other posters think I am openly insulting you. . .

Do you think you would be considered a "Clinger" in another relationship?

By the way, I agree that Interdependence is the goal. One of my core values I had when I had a life coach we uncovered was teamwork, a partial reason for a career change. Teamwork is another way of saying interdependence IMHO.

Good topic. . .I score "off the charts" independent on personality tests and that may be indicative of selfishness. I have given a lot of my life to helping others, many times for little to no money but that does not mean I don't have a vein of selfishness or self-centeredness running through me and you're right to call it out.

I am only calling you out a bit with the pointed question. I really don't know you from Sally but I know you well enough when I ask a good self-reflective question, oh boy do you get thinking.


----------



## notmyrealname4

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



Scannerguard said:


> I have given a lot of my life to helping others, many times for little to no money but that does not mean I don't have a vein of selfishness or self-centeredness running through me



Every human being operates out of selfishness and self-centeredness. Every last one.

But I use those terms in a neutral sense; as a description. Not a condemnation.

Really think about it. Everything we do is based on getting the best outcome for ourselves.

And when we do good deeds; it's because we feel a need to do the right thing---so that we can feel better about ourselves or the state of the world.


----------



## meson

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



SimplyAmorous said:


> I can tell you .. why I love and resonate so much with Harley's stuff is... I THINK so much like the man ...even down to his "Radical honesty" stuff.. that's our marriage!!
> 
> We are a prime example of living what this man has taught.... I never even read any of his stuff UNTIL after I joined this forum.. the book I knew about & had read was the Love languages book...not Harley's ..But yeah.. I resonated with everything he said.. and I DO feel when these 10 emotional needs are lacking.. one is susceptible to an affair, as his book is titled.


I agree with the majority of his ideas as well. However I wish he had chosen some other word than independant along with the magnitude of the time required to feed a marriage is couple dependent not a universal. 





SimplyAmorous said:


> I feel somehow naturally we were living most of them....of course we did miss it on 1 AREA ... that we've made up for...
> 
> But yeah...I DO crave time with my husband.... I would be annoyed.... Greatly annoyed with a man who didn't want to spend that much time with me.. and I surely wouldn't be brow beating him to do it.... I've said this a number of times on TAM.. I can not stand the idea of being a burden to ANYONE...I have a stick up my a$$ about this... I need a man's
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> to be into it with me or it all goes to hell... I would just leave them..


I think craving your spouse is a property of a good marriage. Love is based upon a neural physical addiction so the craving is natural. That's what missing our spouse is about when the travel and away for a time. I often get this at the end of a regular day as well. The point is the amount of time required differs for many. From a prescription point of view 15hrs/wk covers most.




SimplyAmorous said:


> So yeah...if a man wasn't wired like me.. we'd never get off the ground... but this explains why I am attracted to men who are primary family oriented, romantic , the more sensitive types...
> 
> There is clearly a reason I put a disclaimer at the beginning of this...as I know it's not true for everyone.. Look at @EllisRedding 's example.. 4 hours a week!! and it's OK with both of them!!! Admittedly, I'd never be able to stand that.. I'd deem my husband a workaholic if that was my life..


This is an important point. The ideal is that our need for spousal time should be matched. Otherwise one spouses needs could be met while another is not. I think that going through a potential mates needs and making a determination of whether your needs could be met in addition to your ability to meet your prospects needs would be a good exercise to help ensure compatibility for marriage.




SimplyAmorous said:


> One thing I don't have is a large close knit family (maybe Ellis's wife does -this being a part of her fulfillment to make up for the hrs she doesn't have with him).... I've tried to create this - having 6 kids... I WANTED the added chaos & work... so thankful for them all...they have complete our lives....
> 
> But I have no siblings.. not close to my mother.. not close to my father.. (I probably see them less than 5 times a year).. then I didn't have a career either.. like many women today which can be demanding & she may be worn out at the end of the day too..just not thinking about time with the hubby...
> 
> There is time with girlfriends on occasion...but husband's always been my BEST friend.. the one I'd choose above all...whatever we do..
> 
> I surely get that there are TIMES we need to take a step back..other things take priority... they closed the shop where Husband works...laid everyone off but 3 guys.. he was one of those.. but he had to get a CDL to keep his job.. I wanted him to STUDY STUDY STUDY....Ignore me [email protected]#... until he got that in his hands (this was urgent)..
> 
> I went out of my way to HELP him with this.. joining a "Truckers forum" this past month.... posting pictures I took of the school bus engine, getting a little more clarification for his "Pre-trip inspection"....(His training was from a Bus garage, they took him on -so thankful !... the lady training him didn't know all that - she got her CDL like 30 yrs ago- when Pre-trip's was maybe 3 minutes.. NOT TODAY! .. his Pre-trip took a good hour days ago, when he took the test.. he passed [email protected]#.. we're so excited... Training on this school bus basically saved his job !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> THIS took priority over EVERYTHING during this time.. Just as when we were trying to sell our house years ago....WORK WORK WORK...we had a goal, we wanted out of there!.. but still we did it all together, side by side, tool belt around my waist...
> 
> I drilled him for his Testing .. he passed everything the 1st time.. it's good... I even had a poster on the Truckers forum telling me - He should be there asking questions NOT ME -like why isn't he doing the work.. and I defended our "team work" spirit on this..
> 
> He purposely takes 2 week days off so we'd have more time together while the kids are in school (Playtime!) & I schedule my jobs, even choose jobs around his work schedule so we CAN maximize our time together..


This kind work being together while helping the other to achieve goals is cool! It brings the both of you together while allowing independant achievement. 



SimplyAmorous said:


> *I'd say the Larger issue is...when One marries another who has a very different idea of spending time , they should never assume it will change after the vows.. the way we were before we married has remained steadfast the last 36 yrs... *


Exactly! This circles back to my point earlier. If there is so,etching that needs changing it either needs to be changed or satisfactorily addressed. Otherwise it's time to move on and keep looking.




SimplyAmorous said:


> I could say here.. if this is true.. me & my husband SUCK ...we're not living up to it.. we must not be growing = stagnation... we ought to be suffering in some way.. but I don't feel this -at all.
> 
> He's never had or ever cared about outside activities , he lives for his family (these have been his words).... oh he may enjoy a few things like coin collecting, metal detecting, he took on a truck project putting it together yrs ago (more for saving $$ over enjoyment though) he also has a fascination with Lock picking.. I sometimes think he should have been a Locksmith - probably not much money in that....but ultimately what needs done around here, working on vehicles, upkeep of house / property....attending our children's activities, doing family things...this is fulfilling enough..
> 
> Maybe WE are not normal in comparison to the majority here ??


Nothing wrong here! You enjoy and need each others time almost exclusively. You both are growing. The house project, the certification test and kids. I think this is normal.

Our needs are just more of a non-intersecting type which we accommodate in a similar but slightly different way. There is more than one combination type to completely satisfying needs of both spouses. 





SimplyAmorous said:


> It sounds you both changed though, maybe in significant ways ... I can't say we've felt this.. we haven't changed much really.. I can think of a couple on my end...loosing my religion & my heightened sexual NEED...but really...I look back and more so see us growing together through whatever came....like those roots that Love quote spoke of..
> 
> But true...I missed some things years ago...I again owe my husband the world for his patience & understanding of me.. I see this completely different over you -probably because our experience has been so different..
> 
> This just give credence to the wide range of differences among us though...what we want, crave, what works for us...then factoring in some changes over the years..
> 
> So you & she were very different couple when you dated then, before kids ??


I encouraged a misunderstanding here. We were who we were at the start of the marriage and that's who we were for the years we knew each other before we dated. With the complication of kids, work and aging parents we gave up essential part of ourselves to the the family. It was done out of time management necessity but it slowly changed us and me in particular to be unhappy moving towards bitter. Resentments took root. It wasn't until I withdrew and decided to work on myself that I noticed I had really given up being what I was and this was a person my wife didn't like. 

My seeking out my old interests improved me and reset me back to the man my wife fell in love with. So that's where I'm coming from about this. It's a bit of a nitpick but it made a difference in my marriage.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



Scannerguard said:


> Hey SA,
> 
> I can tell this is a very cerebral discussion here (didn't read all the replies) so I am going to change up the cerebralness a bit, with your permission as the thread starter, and instead of journaling my thoughts, ask a pointed question
> 
> I think you know how much I admire your marriage and have stated that here off and on over the years (mostly off).
> 
> So, with that disclaimer, so I don't think other posters think I am openly insulting you. . .
> 
> *Do you think you would be considered a "Clinger" in another relationship?*


 I don't mind at all you asking this question...Here is the thing with me.. I will outright admit.. I love a touchy feely man who loves to spend time with me.. This is all my husband... I know what works for me, I know what wouldn't... This thread isn't about me though... we are all variations..

You probably missed this, it's something I said in that LONG post I did yesterday, touching on what you are asking....



> "... I would be annoyed.... Greatly annoyed with a man who didn't want to spend that much time with me.. *and I surely wouldn't be brow beating him to do it*.... I've said this a number of times on TAM.. I can not stand the idea of being a burden to ANYONE...I have a stick up my a$$ about this... I need a man's
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> to be into it with me or it all goes to hell... I would just leave them."


So would I be a Clinger you ask (I know you mean this in the negative sense)...If I felt even a hint that a man didn't appreciate me for who I was, what I wanted to bring.. *I'd recoil from him*.. so No.. I wouldn't be an annoying clinger to anyone .... I'd find that ugly, burdensome, & hurtful if another felt this way about me... there are plenty of fish in the sea ... I'd throw those one's back... they are better suited for a independent feminist or something...but it isn't me!...

Years ago now.. me & him had a moment....went something like this....that old song "Even Though We Ain't Got Money, I'm so in love with you Honey"  came on the radio... I grabbed him & we danced..... a few minutes earlier I was talking about how so many on TAM seem to get off on brow beating Nice Guys....saying they are all clingy, weak, and women loose attraction to them... my Husband listens and says back....."what's wrong with clingy?"...

When we were dancing.... he looks down at me & says "If you wasn't clingy, you wouldn't be mushy"... basically he loves me the way I am....I'm clingy with him!.... but he loves it... and I love it .... I buried my face in his chest and teared up, just so thankful for what we have with each other...







There is some vulnerability there for ya.. 

One of my husband's lines is "Why get married if you don't want to be with the other person"... that's how he thinks.. I mean it helps we get along so well...he's the one & only person I could spend 24/7 with and them NOT get on my nerves... this doesn't mean we don't fight on occasion - we do! 



> By the way, I agree that Interdependence is the goal. One of my core values I had when I had a life coach we uncovered was teamwork, a partial reason for a career change. Teamwork is another way of saying interdependence IMHO.


 Yes it is Scanner !! We are both BIG on having a "team spirit" ... Been reading more of Harley's stuff... and it speaks of this "Policy of Joint agreement" thing... seems so formal wording it like this.... that's always been our "natural way".. we never had to read anything...

I WANT to know how he feels, I always ask...heck he clues me in too..I can't recall 1 tiff in all our years where one went ahead of the other , some surprise we didn't talk about...it just doesn't happen... we are informed.. we talk it all out & find what works for us both.... it almost seems this is not common with many couples ?? 



> Good topic. . .I score "off the charts" independent on personality tests and that may be indicative of selfishness. I have given a lot of my life to helping others, many times for little to no money but that does not mean I don't have a vein of selfishness or self-centeredness running through me and you're right to call it out.


 I am admittedly more selfish, probably a lot - and less patient too, over my husband.. my thoughts on this is in the 1st line of my compatibility thread.. I said >> "Ultimately we are ALL selfish and simply want what we want, this is nothing new under the sun. Being aware of this fact of life & making absolute sure we are compatible before we marry can avoid many many pitfalls after the vows" ... I stand by that.. 

I am very independent minded.. I can lead .. I can take command.. I have strong opinions.. I can be persuasive.. I can even be demanding if I don't watch myself ... I feel the romantic side of me is where I long to share everything..

For me ...Life is just better being shared with someone you love (sex is great too - I'd miss that something awful!







)... this has always been my ideal.. always loved the scriptures in Ecclesiastes on this.. it is about that "teamwork"..


----------



## jld

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

Beautiful and heartfelt, SA. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Scannerguard

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

Hey SA,

Thank you so much for you reply; I did listen to every word.

TO answer your husbands rhetorical question: "What's wrong with a clinger?"

If you are both clingers: Nothing. Not one damn thing other than maybe some people (not me) may do the "gag me with a spoon" gesture. 

If one of you isn't, it's freaky and unnerving to the one being clung to. And frustrating to the clinger. You start to worry about them and it becomes dysfunctional immediately. . .you sort of hope it will get better but you usually realize one is expecting a level of intimacy that you just can't give. And then you feel like the bad guy. The clinger conversely feels disappointed all the time.

I feel this was a parallel topic, close enough to "Independence"/"Interdependence" that it deserved discussion. I hope that was okay with you.


----------



## Scannerguard

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



> One of my husband's lines is "Why get married if you don't want to be with the other person"


Well, I sense THIS other question your husband asked ISN"T rhetorical and is actually a curiosity.

Now. . .I am NO expert by any means on this complicated topic of marriage but I looked at my grandparents. I think their marriage was about well, more "business". . .raising kids, division of domestic labor (cooking her, handy stuff him) provision for basic needs (2 incomes), SOME minor companionship (travel escort), someone to share in big decisions (weddings, funerals, illnesses), sex of course (as a grandchild pretty freaky to think about that but that's how I got here I guess, lol) . . .but. . .he went fishing and she played cards. She was involved in the UAW union and he liked to tile for his work and side jobs.

They almost DIDN"T want to spend time with each other.

They had FRIENDS for that. 

They have spouses for the other list I mentioned above.

Who knows. . maybe I integrated a wrong value from that, I'm not sure.

I do feel we have placed this HUGE burden upon the institution of marriage that we (maybe esp. men) can't live up to. I mean, it's great, SO GREAT, what you and your husband have, but I am not even sure that should be the goal, the GOLD STANDARD, you know?

Do you think?


----------



## MEM2020

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

No way I could marry someone I didn't consider an exceptional companion. And they would also have to perceive me as such.

It is the single most important element - to me. 




Scannerguard said:


> Well, I sense THIS other question your husband asked ISN"T rhetorical and is actually a curiosity.
> 
> Now. . .I am NO expert by any means on this complicated topic of marriage but I looked at my grandparents. I think their marriage was about well, more "business". . .raising kids, division of domestic labor (cooking her, handy stuff him) provision for basic needs (2 incomes), SOME minor companionship (travel escort), someone to share in big decisions (weddings, funerals, illnesses), sex of course (as a grandchild pretty freaky to think about that but that's how I got here I guess, lol) . . .but. . .he went fishing and she played cards. She was involved in the UAW union and he liked to tile for his work and side jobs.
> 
> They almost DIDN"T want to spend time with each other.
> 
> They had FRIENDS for that.
> 
> They have spouses for the other list I mentioned above.
> 
> Who knows. . maybe I integrated a wrong value from that, I'm not sure.
> 
> I do feel we have placed this HUGE burden upon the institution of marriage that we (maybe esp. men) can't live up to. I mean, it's great, SO GREAT, what you and your husband have, but I am not even sure that should be the goal, the GOLD STANDARD, you know?
> 
> Do you think?


----------



## wild jade

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

My husband is my best friend in every was. But for long term relationships, I think it's really important that both partners also encourage independent behaviours. We all have dreams, and it seems to me no fair to stand in the way of someone's dreams. 

There have been times I have felt practically abandoned by my husband pursuing his dreams. So common a thing it even has a name "work widow". But it was just a period of time, and things settled down. 

Other times he has sacrificed to support my dreams. 

I guess if you both always have the same dreams, that would make things easy. But how often does that happen?


----------



## arbitrator

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

*What I take away from this is that "Interdependence far exceeds Independence!"

I really think that's the singular message that God's been trying to convey to us all for years!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## RyanWSU1975

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

It is a tricky balance. My example is that my wife travels a lot for work. She is very intelligent and attractive. At first, she was happy just hanging out in her room after dinner. She would FaceTime so the kids and I could see and talk with her. Lately, she goes out on her own to bars, the downtown scene, etc. We have had our issues lately in our marriage. So it makes me anxious and worrisome since in the past, this is how she met men. Of course, when she is out, she gets a lot of attention. She likes that attention. She easily could act on it and I would never know. A friend of hers that was in the same line of work was married about a year ago. Her husband from the start told her, you are not going to be on the road. He knew the same scenario existed and did not want to deal with it.

When I express my worry about this behavior, my wife tells me she can do what she wants. And she can, I do not argue that. My point is that she could at least consider my feeling and where I am coming form and possible change her behavior. Why would a married woman go out at 9 pm and not get back to hotel room until 2 am in a large city while she is away from her spouse? What intentions/motives does that person have? I don't think I am asking a lot or being controlling. I just want her to be more thoughtful.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



RyanWSU1975 said:


> It is a tricky balance. My example is that my wife travels a lot for work. She is very intelligent and attractive. At first, she was happy just hanging out in her room after dinner. She would FaceTime so the kids and I could see and talk with her. Lately, she goes out on her own to bars, the downtown scene, etc. We have had our issues lately in our marriage. So it makes me anxious and worrisome since in the past, this is how she met men. Of course, when she is out, she gets a lot of attention. She likes that attention. She easily could act on it and I would never know. A friend of hers that was in the same line of work was married about a year ago. Her husband from the start told her, you are not going to be on the road. He knew the same scenario existed and did not want to deal with it.
> 
> When I express my worry about this behavior, my wife tells me she can do what she wants. And she can, I do not argue that. My point is that she could at least consider my feeling and where I am coming form and possible change her behavior. Why would a married woman go out at 9 pm and not get back to hotel room until 2 am in a large city while she is away from her spouse? What intentions/motives does that person have? I don't think I am asking a lot or being controlling. I just want her to be more thoughtful.


That you tolerate this without consequences or mirroring likely has a good bit to do with why she continues to behave this way.


----------



## RyanWSU1975

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

Mirroring? Are you saying I should go out and do the same thing? That does not seem like the answer if that is what you are suggesting. 

If your spouse comes to you and says something you are doing is hurting them, my hope is that most people would do something to change their behavior to make their spouse happy.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: The Love Busting &quot;Independent behavior&quot; attitude &amp; how it can hurt our marriages.*



RyanWSU1975 said:


> Mirroring? Are you saying I should go out and do the same thing? That does not seem like the answer if that is what you are suggesting.
> 
> If your spouse comes to you and says something you are doing is hurting them, my hope is that most people would do something to change their behavior to make their spouse happy.


When a relationship is healthy, that would be the expected outcome.

How about when it isn't?


----------



## RyanWSU1975

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

If it isn't healthy, I do not know the outcome. Everything is deflected back at me when I bring it up. It's my issue of being suspicious or jealous, etc. 

Ideally, it would be better just to not have to have her travel. Take the opportunity away to keep her out of those situations.


----------



## Anon1111

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



RyanWSU1975 said:


> Why would a married woman go out at 9 pm and not get back to hotel room until 2 am in a large city while she is away from her spouse? What intentions/motives does that person have?


there is no good answer for this.

at the very least, she enjoys getting hit on. this alone is a huge red flag.

what's the likelihood that it never escalates from there? 

have you checked her phone?


----------



## RyanWSU1975

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

I check her phone and the Verizon bill. Nothing so far. But she also knows I check it!

I cannot answer the likelihood question. One day, I feel like she would do the right thing. The next day, I am certain she would do something because it would be so easy to do it being on the road.


----------



## jb02157

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



SimplyAmorous said:


> It varies between couples how much time / togetherness they desire from each other... I'm pretty sure myself & husband are higher on the bar in comparison to the average (beings we're both "Time" & "Touchers" , love language wise)... it hasn't been a tug of war with either of us feeling he's too busy.. or I'm too busy, showing too much independence from each other..
> 
> In "His Needs / Her Needs", this particular book about parenting - still the Parents NEED their time alone, this segment ...  Click HERE speaks how a couple need a minimum of *15 hours* of undivided attention a week ...for intimate affection, sexual fulfillment, intimate conversation & recreational companionship... that could be a little over 2 hours a day if you spread it over a week's time..
> 
> We're probably not the norm...I'd rather go shopping with him over any girlfriend.. (not that I like to shop, actually I HATE it -give me Amazon & Ebay please!)....we seem to enjoy most everything together.. except he's went to Gun shows with friends, and I love a good rock concert that he'd rather not get his ear drums blown out seeing...
> 
> I'll go to his coin shows with him, he appreciates that... In our earlier years.. I'd even go to the Junk Yard with him... I wanted to help!


I agree with all that you say here, but as others on this thread have said, one person who is committed to doing these things won't get it done. I like to jog, ride bikes (used to be a road racer) even take the dogs for a nice long walk but all she does is sleep. We aren't the norm...going in the opposite direction.


----------



## Scannerguard

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



> Why would a married woman go out at 9 pm and not get back to hotel room until 2 am in a large city while she is away from her spouse? What intentions/motives does that person have?


Um, is this a quiz question?

She's disrespectful? Immature? Maybe a drinking problem? She wants to fool around? She's stupid with her safety? 

Did I guess any right?


----------



## notmyrealname4

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

@RyanWSU1975


Hopefully you're not living in Pullman anymore :grin2: j/k!!!



But, what your wife is doing on the road, is not an example of "independence in marriage".

Independence, in that situation, would be going about her work day; then getting a meal (perhaps with a _mixed *group*_ of coworkers/clients)-----then returning to her hotel room alone.

That's independence, responsibility and dedication to the marriage. If she feels horny while she's on the road, she can take a vibrator. If she feels alone, well, that's what she signed up for by accepting that position in the company. There's always things like Skype, for connecting with you and the kids.

She can go work out in the hotel gym. She can read, or watch TV in her room.

I think a job that takes you away from your spouse a lot must just suck bigtime. But some folks can do it no problem. They are independent to an extreme. And if there is trust and honesty, no problem.

But what you describe sounds totally unacceptable.


----------



## heartsbeating

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



notmyrealname4 said:


> Most of my hobbies are done alone. Like 90% of them.
> 
> My husband is fine with that.
> 
> So, although I am personally very independent; I don't do things without considering the effect on our marriage, or my husband's feelings.


What you wrote here about having consideration caught my attention. I learned from my husband what inclusion meant, while still having our own interests and path. There's a beautiful balance to be found and shared. He has demonstrated support and shown interest in what's important to me. And it was simply a matter of sharing with him and having consideration to him and us.

He's a volunteer firefighter. Before he started, I was fearful about this. As way of reassurance to me, he shared aspects of his learning and the support available. I see the team camaraderie and personal growth he's experienced. It's a small but heart-warming thing to have members of the brigade already know who I am, introduce themselves and make me feel welcome. It's his path that, thanks to his actions, I very much feel a part of and support where possible.


----------



## notmyrealname4

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



heartsbeating said:


> *He's a volunteer firefighter*. Before he started,* I was fearful about this.* As way of reassurance to me, he shared aspects of his learning and the support available. I see the team camaraderie and personal growth he's experienced. It's a small but heart-warming thing to have members of the brigade already know who I am, introduce themselves and make me feel welcome. It's his path that, thanks to his actions, I very much feel a part of and support where possible.


That would be scary.

I guess we *do* have to let our spouses be themselves as much as possible. If we love them, we want them to flourish.

But if it is something _potentially_ life-threatening that they enjoy; then I think it is very understanding of you to be so supportive.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



Scannerguard said:


> Hey SA,
> 
> Thank you so much for you reply; I did listen to every word.
> 
> TO answer your husbands rhetorical question: "What's wrong with a clinger?"
> 
> If you are both clingers: Nothing. Not one damn thing other than maybe some people (not me) may do the "gag me with a spoon" gesture.


 Yes.. why compatibility is so important.. never to be overlooked or felt we can change anyone....this may come off a cute little diddy by Dr Seuss .. but it's true !












> If one of you isn't, it's freaky and unnerving to the one being clung to. And frustrating to the clinger. You start to worry about them and it becomes dysfunctional immediately. . .you sort of hope it will get better but you usually realize one is expecting a level of intimacy that you just can't give. And then you feel like the bad guy. The clinger conversely feels disappointed all the time.
> 
> I feel this was a parallel topic, close enough to "Independence"/"Interdependence" that it deserved discussion. I hope that was okay with you.


It does deserve Opened up... Here is the BAD, the Weak, the Needy....the Clingy (in a negative light)...

I don't feel spending 15 hrs of emotionally invested "one on one" in a week's time , as Harley recommends would be considered Clingy in any way though.. but a minimal balance for the majority... there will be @EllisRedding marriages that are OK with far less.. 

What you describe here could be called "THE SPONGE" taken from this book High Maintenance Relationships:



> *The Anatomy of a Sponge*
> 
> * Constantly in need; gives nothing back
> * Clingy
> * Stifling
> * Needy
> * Guilt-inducing
> * Fearful
> * Egocentric
> * Smothering
> * Crisis-oriented
> 
> *Understanding a Sponge*
> 
> Sponges suffer from terribly low self-esteem.
> Sponges are desperately trying to merge with another person in a vain attempt to feel better about themselves.
> 
> Sponges don’t posess enough self worth to stand on their own two feet, so they try to stand on yours.
> 
> Sponges, more than most other high-maintenance relationships, are crying out, strangely enough, to be needed.
> 
> The avaricious man is like the barren sandy ground of the desert which sucks in all the rain and dew with greediness, but yields no fruitful herbs or plants for the benefit of others.
> 
> *Do you know a Sponge? *
> 
> If you can answer yes to at least 10 of these questions then you are in a relationship with a Sponge.
> 
> *1*. Sometimes I feel that this person is attached to my side.
> *2*. Rarely does this person explore my needs and concerns.
> *3.* Sometimes it feels as if this person is literally soaking up my time and resources.
> *4.* This relationship may be close in some respects, but it is stagnant.
> *5.* This person almost always appears to be needy.
> *6*. When I say no to this person, I often feel guilty.
> *7*. This person is clingy and needy.
> *8*. I often feel smothered by this person.
> *9*. It sometimes feels as if this person is simply moving from one crisis to another.
> *10*. At times I feel as if this person is pulling me under.
> *11.* This person has a fear of missing out or being left out.
> *12*. I have difficulty setting boundaries with this person.
> *13. *I spend a disproportionate amount of time working on this person’s problems and concerns compared to my own.
> *14*. This person is not afraid to ask for a favor.
> *15*. This person often drains my energy.


None of these would apply in how husband sees me or how I see him.. not in the smallest way.. 

I did a post not too long ago on a thread here > http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/335033-if-you-good-marriage.html ...I believe I hit on something about myself, my childhood & how it shaped me...(we all have our stories right)...

A while back @jld suggested I get this book...  The Good Marriage: How and Why Love Lasts ... so I bought it.. skimmed through it.. it spoke & explained 5 different types of Marriages...

*1*. Romantic Marriage

*2*. Rescue Marriage

*3.* Companionate Marriage

*4*. Traditional Marriage

*5*. Renegotiating Marriage

When I read the chapter on "*the Romantic Marriage*"... it was like ...WOW.. that is so US !!...but also what I learned in that chapter was how many in these type marriages speak of a "hole" in their childhoods.. a severe loss... it spoke of one woman who never had a Mother, she was deprived of maternal affection & love, how her mother didn't touch her.. 

In my life.. my mother loved me.. but she left me.. she had a nervous breakdown & ran off with an alcoholic.. she was my best friend before that.. my world so to speak, and that was ripped from me.. 

I will copy a few parts from that particular chapter...



> All Courtship begins with a fantasy - a fervent desire, bordering on delusion, that another person can step in & magically undo all of life's hurts and disappointments . The new loved one will adore you forever, protect you, drive away wicked people, make you feel whole, valued, beautiful, worthy, and honorable - forever...
> 
> then a few more paragraphs & it says this...
> 
> "Every child experiences some hurts & losses while growing up, no matter how loving the parents. Of the people in Romantic marriages, a high proportion had sustained severe losses during childhood, including the death or physical or mental illness of a parent, Sara & to a lessor extent Matt, did not feel loved by their Mothers. Both spoke of having a "hole' in their childhoods. The sense of magic and of a relationship that extends beyond time and space may rest on the unconscious connection between the adult lover and the lost beloved person from childhood"
> 
> 
> ....down further.. it spoke of men..
> 
> " Several of the men in romantic marriages had lonely, isolated childhoods in which fantasy probably played an important role. Others had sustained losses as children, the mothers of 2 were hospitalized for many years. These men came to adulthood with intense, long post poned needs for love & closeness.
> 
> These men's sense of making up for early losses may help explain why they felt almost physically connected to their wives. The couples in romantic marriages often seemed to have an unusual unity, not only on an emotional level, but on a physical level as well.."I've never not felt in love with her. I've never even had dreams in which I was with someone else. She is very much a part of me, a soul mate".. said one man.. His wife said .."I feel whole when he's in the house".
> 
> In fact, each partner's central identity was defined by the marital bond, as it they were halves of a whole.
> 
> It went on to speak of a man who described the early losses & the love for his wife..he was an only child who lost his father in an airplane crash when he was 10, then his Mom became a falling down drunk...family life was non -existent.. growing up he watched "Father knows Best"...he would think "I wish I had a family like that...I knew I was missing something...it was a stable family, they respected each other, they dealt with the little foibles of life, nothing could destroy that stability"..
> 
> That television show kept his hope alive.. it was the church of his childhood..and in his marriage his passionate love for his wife reflected his joy, his sense of having been granted a miracle, and his sheer incredulity at finding her....


When I read all of that.. I can relate to feeling LIKE THIS...(I was an only child too).... I enjoyed watching shows like the Waltons , Little House on the Prairie .... loved that Larger family stability ...








or listening to my Beloved Grandmother next door speak of her Courtship with my Grandfather...they had a very loving marriage... these things surely influenced me and gave me hope for my own future. 

But I so wanted to GIVE In a relationship , I felt I had much to share with another to enhance their life too.....I am a hard worker (even if not a career woman, work ethic is high on the bar)... honest to a fault, responsible...but also very Romantic...what can I say... I love intimacy... I am passionate about it!.... 

It wasn't about taking.. blood sucking someone....ya know...in this way.. I surely feel I was healthy -even if a little beaten down by my childhood back then. I dreamed of a much better life for myself & that special man ...what we could create together...


----------



## SunCMars

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

By birth, by Nature, by God.....I am Independent.

And by loneliness, I do suffer that Rock.


----------



## MEM2020

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

Reason number 55 why Heartsbeating - melts mine.




heartsbeating said:


> What you wrote here about having consideration caught my attention. I learned from my husband what inclusion meant, while still having our own interests and path. There's a beautiful balance to be found and shared. He has demonstrated support and shown interest in what's important to me. And it was simply a matter of sharing with him and having consideration to him and us.
> 
> He's a volunteer firefighter. Before he started, I was fearful about this. As way of reassurance to me, he shared aspects of his learning and the support available. I see the team camaraderie and personal growth he's experienced. It's a small but heart-warming thing to have members of the brigade already know who I am, introduce themselves and make me feel welcome. It's his path that, thanks to his actions, I very much feel a part of and support where possible.


----------



## WorkingWife

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

Great Topic!

I heard Dr. Harley give this explanation about IB on his radio show once and it really helped me understand it even better. He has a wife who was upset by things her husband did that he didn't see why it mattered or didn't want to stop doing.

I can't stand IB but even I was kind of thinking "chill out, woman..." over some of the things she didn't like him doing. 

But Dr. Harley told the husband to imagine he is driving a truck, and his wife is outside, tethered to the truck with a rope, jogging along side. Everything he does - every stop, every turn, every acceleration affects her whether he intends for it to or not.

I'm not sure it was the same couple but there was one where the H made dresser drawers for their child. His wife didn't want him to make them and had a different idea than him of what "finished" meant. (In her world finished involved sanding and stain, in his world, apparently not so much."

At first I thought - why on earth would she not love that he's making this? But then I realized - the fact that it was taking him so long and she wanted the wood stained and he didn't see the importance in that, really did affect her too.

Interesting.

My H is getting much better but he would do IB things that were super little, but just drove me crazy and really hurt my feelings because they conveyed the message "I'm don't care what you want/you're right here but I'm oblivious to you." and that would be he would 1) just flip the channel on the TV or change the radio station when I was right there, never asking "Do you mind if I change this?" and 2) Turn the bedroom light off the second he got into bed while I was still doing things like undressing or straightening the blankets. It was like ...WTF? Do you not see that I am right here using the light?

I think that's IB. Anything like that is crazy making because even if it's small it reminds you that you have no control over that part of your life. The other person just does whatever the hell they want and you are dragged along.

Now that I know about IB I try very hard to always ask him "do you mind if I" "how would you feel about me..." before I do anything that affects him.

Except I am not going to stop eating potato chips. Sorry. But until I start to get fat - he'll just have to deal with that one. (I do eat them in the other room where the crunching won't bother him.)


----------



## EllisRedding

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



SimplyAmorous said:


> Y
> 
> I don't feel spending 15 hrs of emotionally invested "one on one" in a week's time , as Harley recommends would be considered Clingy in any way though.. but a minimal balance for the majority... there will be @EllisRedding marriages that are OK with far less..


I don't think there is anything wrong with 15hrs a week, ideally that would be great, I just don't think it is realistic for many with a family (not just my situation but many others I know). 15hrs just seems arbitrary, would rather focus on making the most on the time you have when you do have it.


----------



## Scannerguard

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

Now see, speaking to the travel aspect of a relationship and independence, I would like my second career to be a traveling job M-F and I would like to meet a partner who was cool with that. Essentially I would travel Monday through Friday and spend my time teaching healthcare professionals and in my off time, during the week, I hope to exercise and write. I would be well paid for this with benefits.

Fly back in on Friday and be with her/family. Vacations, holidays. . .all in there. . .being self-employed I never had any of this. I"m single now so I can choose this lifestyle unencumbered.

But, I have had women scold me saying "Well, you'll never have a relationship that way!!!"

So maybe this is too unrealistic on how people are wired (wired, to well, "cling". . .darn. . .there goes that negative word). I can't be shaking a Simplyamorous-like SO loose at the airport every week, holding my ankle as I try to board .

I am not sure I can handle these dramatic partings every week.  (what an ego, lol - yes I'm teasing you SA)

A guy has gotta roam dear.


----------



## notmyrealname4

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



SimplyAmorous said:


> What you describe here could be called "THE SPONGE" taken from this book High Maintenance Relationships:
> 
> 
> 
> *None of these would apply in how husband sees me or how I see him.. not in the smallest way.. *
> 
> I did a post not too long ago on a thread here > http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/335033-if-you-good-marriage.html ...I believe I hit on something about myself, my childhood & how it shaped me..*.(we all have our stories right)...*
> 
> 
> In my life.. my mother loved me.. but she left me.. she had a nervous breakdown & ran off with an alcoholic.. she was my best friend before that.*. my world so to speak, and that was ripped from me..
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or listening to my Beloved Grandmother next door speak of her Courtship with my Grandfather...they had a very loving marriage... these things surely influenced me and gave me hope for my own future.
> 
> * But I so wanted to GIVE In a relationship* , I felt I had much to share with another to enhance their life too....*.I am a hard worker *(even if not a career woman, work ethic is high on the bar)... honest to a fault, responsible...but also very Romantic...what can I say... I love intimacy... I am passionate about it!....
> 
> It wasn't about taking.. blood sucking someone....ya know...in this way.. I surely feel I was healthy -even if a little beaten down by my childhood back then. * I dreamed of a much better life for myself & that special man ..*.what we could create together...




No, SA, I do not think you would be mistaken for a sponge. I think you have added to your husband's life in nothing but a positive sense.

And that said, if one member of a couple is a "sponge", and the other one is okay with it; who would anyone else be to judge?


I think you rose from the ashes of your childhood, and created something so much better than what you had.


I loved those shows too. I thought Jim-Bob on the Walton's was so cute.


----------



## EllisRedding

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

I would love to see the folder on @SimplyAmorous computer where she keeps all these images she posts :grin2:


----------



## jld

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



Scannerguard said:


> Now see, speaking to the travel aspect of a relationship and independence, I would like my second career to be a traveling job M-F and I would like to meet a partner who was cool with that. Essentially I would travel Monday through Friday and spend my time teaching healthcare professionals and in my off time, during the week, I hope to exercise and write. I would be well paid for this with benefits.
> 
> Fly back in on Friday and be with her/family. Vacations, holidays. . .all in there. . .being self-employed I never had any of this. I"m single now so I can choose this lifestyle unencumbered.
> 
> But, I have had women scold me saying "Well, you'll never have a relationship that way!!!"
> 
> So maybe this is too unrealistic on how people are wired (wired, to well, "cling". . .darn. . .there goes that negative word). I can't be shaking a Simplyamorous-like SO loose at the airport every week, holding my ankle as I try to board .
> 
> I am not sure I can handle these dramatic partings every week.  (what an ego, lol - yes I'm teasing you SA)
> 
> A guy has gotta roam dear.


A few of us on TAM have this sort of set up. It has its advantages. 

The key for Dug and me is keeping a strong emotional connection going. You have to make her feel like she is still a priority, no matter what. And she has to see the advantages to her of your having your freedom.


----------



## Scannerguard

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

I think we were all shaped by the TV writers of the time if you are Generation X. Little House on the Prairie you have to admire. . .it could be very melodramatic (Oh pa!!!!) and yet, it worked.

Of course, Baywatch is the pinnacle of TV shows. . .the Hoff is my hero. A career beach lifeguard, who is a good father and cooks, who has a series of bad relationships - what more could a guy want? The melodramatic writing, the cinematography, the music. I aspire to BE the Hoff.

Just wait til driverless cars get here. . .I'm naming mine CITT. . .Chris Industries Two Thousand. . .I plan to be a rogue police officer with nothing more than a capable car who can talk to me.

If we all don't blaspheme the Hoff here, we can all get along. And any future relationships, she'll just have to deal with that oil painting of him above the fireplace. My new girl knows not to blaspheme the Hoff.


----------



## jld

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



notmyrealname4 said:


> No, SA, I do not think you would be mistaken for a sponge. I think you have added to your husband's life in nothing but a positive sense.
> 
> And that said, if one member of a couple is a "sponge", and the other one is okay with it; who would anyone else be to judge?
> 
> 
> I think you rose from the ashes of your childhood, and created something so much better than what you had.
> 
> 
> I loved those shows too. I thought Jim-Bob on the Walton's was so cute.


I know SA and her husband IRL, and believe me, she is anything but a sponge! My goodness, she is the rock in that family! 

Mr SA is very lucky to have you, SA. And fortunately, he knows it.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



Scannerguard said:


> Now see, speaking to the travel aspect of a relationship and independence, I would like my second career to be a traveling job M-F and I would like to meet a partner who was cool with that. Essentially I would travel Monday through Friday and spend my time teaching healthcare professionals and in my off time, during the week, I hope to exercise and write. I would be well paid for this with benefits.
> 
> Fly back in on Friday and be with her/family. Vacations, holidays. . .all in there. . .being self-employed I never had any of this. I"m single now so I can choose this lifestyle unencumbered.
> 
> But, I have had women scold me saying "Well, you'll never have a relationship that way!!!"
> 
> So maybe this is too unrealistic on how people are wired (wired, to well, "cling". . .darn. . .there goes that negative word). I can't be shaking a Simplyamorous-like SO loose at the airport every week, holding my ankle as I try to board .
> 
> I am not sure I can handle these dramatic partings every week.  (what an ego, lol - yes I'm teasing you SA)
> 
> A guy has gotta roam dear.


You can tease me all want.. I'm not unrealistic.. I'd estimate far more men are wired LIKE YOU over those geared like my husband.....they do want to Roam... they want freedom, time with the guys, variety.. they aim for success at sometimes any cost even...

I married a very simple man, he's an introverted Homebody and he's utterly devoted to family... I think we were both guilty of putting the kids before ourselves during a pretty long phase in our marriage even....I was so "over the moon" to be having children after 6+ yrs of trying.... all our dreams suddenly coming true, heck WE could have been more Lovey dovey even, I was putting babies in bed with us :banghead: ..what the hell was I thinking [email protected]#

There was a time where he wanted *more affection from me*!!.. Imagine that Scanner - clingy SA... though he was never one to complain.. I learn this after the fact...opening all that up...

It has enhanced our union since I became more clingy SEXUALLY ...as one could imagine... Without the sex drive increase... well.. I wouldn't be here yakking about all of this...


----------



## SimplyAmorous

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



notmyrealname4 said:


> Most of my hobbies are done alone. Like 90% of them.
> 
> My husband is fine with that.
> 
> So, although I am personally very independent; I don't do things without considering the effect on our marriage, or my husband's feelings.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> The 15 hour a week thing ( the amount of time you're supposed to spend together doing "us" stuff?)
> 
> We might get 6 tops. Going to the grocery store is one. We have a lot of fun doing that; I know it sounds stupid. But even then, we'll wander around separately a bit too.
> 
> We like to watch vintage TV and classic movies together. Not much talking during the show; but we usually share our opinions about it afterwards.
> 
> 
> But I don't think we're "independent" of one another. Even though it might sound like it from my description.


I was wondering what Harley would consider that "one on one" Undivided attention he speaks of -to qualify for these 15 hrs he speaks of...so I looked it up...

Right now.. my husband & me is side by side on our laptops.. he is sitting on the bed.. I am on the floor...3 ft from each other.. we're not focused on each other.. we may have words here & there.. but he's enjoying some personal laptop time & I am on here doing a post.. (this would not be qualifying)... I know how to shake that up though.... just flash him my boobs!...then suddenly he'd be right over....ha ha 

Harley's write up on this >> 



> The Policy of Unidivided Attention
> 
> Give your spouse your undivided attention a minimum of 15 hours each week, using the time to meet the emotional needs of affection, sexual fulfillment, intimate conversation, and recreational companionship.


 He speaks of 3 things to qualify.. Privacy, Objectives and Amount...

*Privacy* = not with kids, friends.. but with each other...that alone time...he says this:

"When children are present, they interfere with affection and intimate conversation, two very vital needs in marriage. Besides, affection and intimate conversation usually lead to lovemaking, and without them, you will find that your lovemaking suffers." (yep was true for us.. we used to let them all crash on our bedroom floor over night... we had an open door policy... STUPID [email protected]#

He spoke of what giving undivided attention means, it's like when a couple is dating...how you wouldn't have married if you'd ignored each other on dates.... Like finding that awesome place to park where you'd be completely alone.. not even the cops will come upon you...to rid yourselves of all distractions. That's the quality of undivided attention -he is speaking of...

He went on to say -watching a movie together doesn't generally count towards this time, but mentioned a couple where it would have !! He didn't go into detail ...but I'm thinking -they displayed much physical affection - hint hint, going down in the movie theater -there ya go...very qualifying , personal & pleasurable... 

We lock the kids out & watch movies together... we very much enjoy the "hands on"...can't do all that with our "family night" movies..... 

Under *Objectives*...he says...

After marriage, women often try to get their husband to meet their emotional needs for *conversation* and *affection*, without meeting their husband's needs for *sex* and *recreational companionship*. Men, on the other hand, want their wives to meet their needs for sex fulfillment and recreational companionship, without meeting their wives needs for affection and conversation. 

Neither strategy works very well. Women often resent having sex without affection and conversation first, and men resent being conversant and affectionate with no hope for sex or recreation. By combining the fulfillment of all four needs into a single event, however, both spouses have their needs met, and enjoy the entire time together. (of course he is "generally speaking" there)...

As for *Amount*, he says:

How much time do you need to sustain the feeling of love for each other? Believe it or not, there really is an answer to this question, and it depends on the health of a marriage. If a couple is deeply in love with each other and find that their marital needs are being met, I have found that about 15 hours each week of undivided attention is usually enough to sustain their love. 

When I apply the 15 hour principle to marriages, I usually recommend that the time be evenly distributed throughout the week, 2 to 3 hours each day. When time must be bunched up -- all hours only on the weekend -- good results are not as predictable. Spouses need to be emotionally reconnected almost on a daily basis to meet each other's most important emotional needs.

The reason I have so much difficulty getting couples to spend time alone together is that when I first see them for counseling, they are no longer in love... Their relationship does not do anything for them, and the time spent with each other seems like a total waste at first. But when they spend time together, they learn to re-create the romantic experiences that first nurtured their love relationship. Without that time, they have little hope of restoring the love they once had for each other.

To help them jump-start their relationship, I usually suggest 25 to 30 hours a week of undivided attention until they are both in love with each other again.

2 other articles he mentions...

Not Enough Time Together #1 and Why Women Leave Men


----------



## SimplyAmorous

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



Ikaika said:


> The me me me part: it is true we tend in society for the selfish, "what am I going to get out of this" rather than what can I give to this relationship. However as a personal example, I,stopped drinking, started exercising and generally taking care of myself because I was tired of how I felt. Though it sounds selfish, I knew it would be a positive impact on my marriage as well. But, to stick to it, I needed to change my lifestyle for me to make it stick.
> 
> So, sometimes we need to change for ourselves, especially when it results in a positive for those around us. Now, of course my addictive personality means pushing my 55 year old body to extremes. My wife does think I'm crazy working out with 20 and 30 year old who are clearly stronger and in better shape. I liked being pushed to the brink. However, my stamina in the bedroom has greatly increased and at the point she never complains


 This is a great personal example...Hopefully anytime we improve ourselves is going to be an improvement in our marriage.. 
Those are some great PERKS for your wife there @Ikaika !

So long as we don't grow away from our supporting spouses as we improve ourselves.. 

There was a guy I graduated with.. I remember him struggling with his weight all through high school... he married an over weight woman... then she had that Lipo surgery ..... she started getting attention from men like for the 1st time in her life... she was eating this up.. she started hanging with a younger crowd, partying, she suddenly wanted to re-live the youth she never had.. and left her husband...at this point he was in good shape too, thinnest he's ever been..

We only heard his side of the story mind you..but there was a situation where the ego of one got a little too inflated...felt they could do better...and it brought it all down.  

I sense you have a great deal of gratitude towards your wife for standing beside you all those years, come hell or high water....this tying you to her. Bless you both..


----------



## SimplyAmorous

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



Steve1000 said:


> My favorite verse about marriage is:
> 
> 1 Corinthians 7:27 Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek a wife.


Ok Steve .... I read this ...but WHY ? Are you free or bound?


----------



## Ikaika

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



SimplyAmorous said:


> This is a great personal example...Hopefully anytime we improve ourselves is going to be an improvement in our marriage..
> Those are some great PERKS for your wife there @Ikaika !
> 
> So long as we don't grow away from our supporting spouses as we improve ourselves..
> 
> There was a guy I graduated with.. I remember him struggling with his weight all through high school... he married an over weight woman... then she had that Lipo surgery ..... she started getting attention from men like for the 1st time in her life... she was eating this up.. she started hanging with a younger crowd, partying, she suddenly wanted to re-live the youth she never had.. and left her husband...at this point he was in good shape too, thinnest he's ever been..
> 
> We only heard his side of the story mind you..but there was a situation where the ego of one got a little too inflated...felt they could do better...and it brought it all down.
> 
> I sense you have a great deal of gratitude towards your wife for standing beside you all those years, come hell or high water....this tying you to her. Bless you both..




She did stand by me and had ever reason to kick my ass to the curb, years ago. She did not and now we are both in a better place. Of course my loss in weight and not drinking coincides with an aging body, so I'm not looking at greener pastures, just thankful I can still workout. I'm know as the crazy old man at the gym :grin2:

My wife has always taken care of herself and she is my "hottie". 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Scannerguard

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

SA:

I only tease you because I know you take it good spirit. You have a sense of humor, pride and comfort with yourself I think we all aspire to.

Yeah, I can respect sacrificing the "roaming" for being a family man like your husband. That's something I will chew on with respects to myself - how much does "success" drive my decisions. And selfishness. 

Good topic. I've contributed my piece on "clinging" and it's worn it's wear. It just popped into my head as I read your posts.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



farsidejunky said:


> Nice post as always, SA.
> 
> I can't speak for the general TAM populace, but *when I say the words "his/her happiness is not your responsibility", it is normally in response to a situation where the person is codependent.
> 
> There is an incredibly fine line between caring about your spouse's happiness and the "must fix it", nice guy (or girl) trap*.


I need to fess up to something..before coming to TAM.. I've heard the word Co-dependent (I recall a woman I knew reading a book on this) but I really had no idea what it even meant.. I think it's still a little fuzzy to me -to be honest.. 

Isn't it about someone who can't leave or feels guilty over leaving another who basically is screwed up, takes them for granted, is an awful spouse, dysfunctional ...here they suck up all the goodness....while the co-dependent is suffering emotionally but still clings to hope or feeling they are doing the "right thing" by staying, showing faithfulness and charity...

At some point.. it becomes *"Enabling"*...which can do more harm over good, certainly not helping a couple find their way back to intimacy...

I should just look it up.. but that's my off the top of my head definition of what "co-dependency" is...that's not healthy.....

I've always felt one needs a healthy "give & take" for a mutual happiness... it should never be one sided.. Sacrificial loving when it's only to pamper one would get old real fast..


----------



## MEM2020

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

SA,
You aren't clingy - you're loving. The difference is.....

Being 'clingy' is defined as: Expressing more love towards and/or more needs towards your partner - than they want you to. 

It's either smothering or being needy or worse - BOTH of those things.

When two people love each other and love doing things together - there's a word for that - and it isn't clingy. The word is blissful. 








SimplyAmorous said:


> I need to fess up to something..before coming to TAM.. I've heard the word Co-dependent (I recall a woman I knew reading a book on this) but I really had no idea what it even meant.. I think it's still a little fuzzy to me -to be honest..
> 
> Isn't it about someone who can't leave or feels guilty over leaving another who basically is screwed up, takes them for granted, is an awful spouse, dysfunctional ...here they suck up all the goodness....while the co-dependent is suffering emotionally but still clings to hope or feeling they are doing the "right thing" by staying, showing faithfulness and charity...
> 
> At some point.. it becomes *"Enabling"*...which can do more harm over good, certainly not helping a couple find their way back to intimacy...
> 
> I should just look it up.. but that's my off the top of my head definition of what "co-dependency" is...that's not healthy.....
> 
> I've always felt one needs a healthy "give & take".... for a mutual happiness... it should never be one sided.. Sacrificial loving when it's only to pamper one would get old real fast..


----------



## Scannerguard

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

I think co-dependence involves destructive behavior.

Like I keep you housed and fed, and you look the other way about my drug habit or something, maybe protect me.

Tony and Carmella Soprano of the fictional Sopranos were co-dependent. She kept the family going while he did his organized crime. The show was pretty much about their marriage to a large degree, interspersed with Mob Voyeurism.


----------



## MEM2020

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

Clingyness is solely about me and my needs. About what I want from you. It's me TAKING something from you (comfort, attention, sex, affection) when it's obvious you don't want to give it. 

Love is about YOU. It's me doing something that I'm confident you will like based on experience. 




SimplyAmorous said:


> I need to fess up to something..before coming to TAM.. I've heard the word Co-dependent (I recall a woman I knew reading a book on this) but I really had no idea what it even meant.. I think it's still a little fuzzy to me -to be honest..
> 
> Isn't it about someone who can't leave or feels guilty over leaving another who basically is screwed up, takes them for granted, is an awful spouse, dysfunctional ...here they suck up all the goodness....while the co-dependent is suffering emotionally but still clings to hope or feeling they are doing the "right thing" by staying, showing faithfulness and charity...
> 
> At some point.. it becomes *"Enabling"*...which can do more harm over good, certainly not helping a couple find their way back to intimacy...
> 
> I should just look it up.. but that's my off the top of my head definition of what "co-dependency" is...that's not healthy.....
> 
> I've always felt one needs a healthy "give & take" for a mutual happiness... it should never be one sided.. Sacrificial loving when it's only to pamper one would get old real fast..


----------



## SimplyAmorous

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



MEM2020 said:


> SA,
> 
> You aren't clingy - you're loving. The difference is.....
> 
> *Being 'clingy' is defined as: Expressing more love towards and/or more needs towards your partner - than they want you to.
> 
> It's either smothering or being needy or worse - BOTH of those things.
> 
> When two people love each other and love doing things together - there's a word for that - and it isn't clingy. The word is blissful*.


You are known for breaking down definitions with an insightful clarification in the simplest terms.. this is one of those.. 

"Being 'clingy' is defined as: Expressing more love towards and/or more needs towards your partner - than they want you to. " 

This reminds me of your thread >> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/21278-thermostat-ultimate-barometer-your-r.html .... you spoke of clinginess / a temperature a couple needs to be mindful of... I remember telling you yrs ago in a post....we have no thermostat,







is good - We Like ! ... there is no push back from either of us...

Still.. a really GOOD thread there ! 



> In an LTR the ideal emotional temperature is one that BOTH people are comfortable with. Couples often “fight” for decades over the “thermostat” setting.
> 
> He likes it really warm and constantly shows and wants to be shown love. She is likes it cooler and dislikes constantly being barraged with “love” as it makes her feel emotionally crowded. She starts seeing him as “clingy and insecure” and she withdraws. He clings harder, she pulls back further feeling ever more crowded. Sex dies and he frantically tries to raise the temperature using an ever increasing stream of love. She loses respect and ends it or has an affair.
> 
> When you overheat someone with too much love, THEIR natural reaction is to try to “cool off” by giving you less love and less OR by provoking conflict to get you to go BACK UP. And they often reduce/stop having sex with you because when they already feel overheated/claustrophobic the LAST thing they want is the intense closeness of sex. Below is an example of badly mismatched thermostat settings....


----------



## notmyrealname4

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



SimplyAmorous said:


> I was wondering what Harley would consider that "one on one" Undivided attention he speaks of -to qualify for these 15 hrs he speaks of...so I looked it up...
> 
> Right now.. my husband & me is side by side on our laptops.. he is sitting on the bed.. I am on the floor...3 ft from each other.. we're not focused on each other.. we may have words here & there.. but he's enjoying some personal laptop time & I am on here doing a post.. (this would not be qualifying)... I know how to shake that up though.... just flash him my boobs!...then suddenly he'd be right over....ha ha



Harley would not approve of my marriage in any way, shape or form, I am sure :wink2:

Yeah, the sitting side-by-side on devices is very common now; we sure do a lot of that.

If I flashed my husband my boobs, he'd smile then go back to what he was doing. :|


----------



## SimplyAmorous

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



meson said:


> *I agree with the majority of his ideas as well. However I wish he had chosen some other word than independant along with the magnitude of the time required to feed a marriage is couple dependent not a universal.*


 Great posting @meson I figured you do as I find I love many of your insightful postings.. we may be a little off on this one.. but that's expected...



> *I think craving your spouse is a property of a good marriage. Love is based upon a neural physical addiction so the craving is natural. That's what missing our spouse is about when the travel and away for a time. I often get this at the end of a regular day as well. The point is the amount of time required differs for many.*


 It is like a chemical addiction...Yes !

Of course this subject fascinates me, I have greatly enjoyed this book - Why We Love: The Nature and Chemistry of Romantic Love  by anthropologist Helen Fisher......she speaks of it being a CRAVING, a DRIVE more than an emotion even...there is special meaning, gives intense energy.. like a rush of cocaine..she speaks of all the hormones & how they interact with each other... I can't keep all of this straight... a snippet from pg 56 says:



> Nevertheless, he distinct correlation between numerous characteristics of romantic love & the effects of these 3 brain substances led me to the following hypothesis *:* this fire in the mind is caused by elevated levels of either dopamine or norepinephrine or both, as well as decreased levels of serotonin. These chemicals from the backbone of obsessive, passionate , Romantic love.


  You Tube : The brain in love - Helen Fisher 

(*4:20*) speaks of the Madness of Romantic Love...parts of the brain, below the emotions even...there is a reward system.. heavily focused on 1 person, wanting, motivation, Craving, it's like a rush if cocaine , obsession.. 

(*6:00*) speaks of the pain of rejection , on an MRI scan.. it's the same region of the brain ...what a cruel thing.. the measuring we endure to what went wrong...(*7:20*) about deep attachment , (*8:30*) Romantic love is an addiction ... (*13:30*) who chooses who to love.. based on personality types, ratio of hormones she feels there is "biology" to this.... 












> *This kind work being together while helping the other to achieve goals is cool! It brings the both of you together while allowing independent achievement.*


 It may have been an odd example but our most recent to share I suppose... I try to be helpful, active in anything related to maintaining our family...what needs done for a smooth running...all comes back to being a Team member.. there is no jealousy, only celebration , when he does well.. we all do well.. 



> *Nothing wrong here! You enjoy and need each others time almost exclusively. You both are growing. The house project, the certification test and kids. I think this is normal*.


 I hope we are normal.. the kids keep things entertaining for sure... always something going on.. if we had other outside hobbies.. I think things would be a little more stressful around here..



> *Our needs are just more of a non-intersecting type which we accommodate in a similar but slightly different way. There is more than one combination type to completely satisfying needs of both spouses. *


 I want to hear the differences in couples...as I recall your wife is a very intelligent woman with a very good career.. she sounds "very important" at work ! 



> *I encouraged a misunderstanding here. We were who we were at the start of the marriage and that's who we were for the years we knew each other before we dated. With the complication of kids, work and aging parents we gave up essential part of ourselves to the family. It was done out of time management necessity but it slowly changed us and me in particular to be unhappy moving towards bitter. Resentments took root. It wasn't until I withdrew and decided to work on myself that I noticed I had really given up being what I was and this was a person my wife didn't like. *


 What you describe here is probably very common... I think I am far less relateable since having kids was like a darn utopia for me ...I became more thankful , grateful and joyous with the more babies we had !! Even if I was a little too oblivious to how I could have given HIM a little more attention.. beings I am naturally somewhat clingy.. I wasn't too bad..even then!! ha ha 



> *My seeking out my old interests improved me and reset me back to the man my wife fell in love with. So that's where I'm coming from about this. It's a bit of a nitpick but it made a difference in my marriage*.


 This is because YOU BECAME HAPPIER , finding yourself again.. some of your initial purpose & passion... getting back to climbing...







... this was part of it , right ?? With your renewed sense of self, your countenance changed.. the atmosphere in your home became better...and your attractiveness once again swooned. 

I can probably relate to this.. when I couldn't have kids.. I was angry, frustrated, my husband would come home in a good mood wanting me.. a little bit frisky...and I pushed him away many times -being angry.... impatient.. I was too heavily focused on what I couldn't have.. I felt I was being cheated... when would God answer my cries... 

I look back and think my husband was somewhat of a Saint to put up with me back then..he allowed me to cry on his shoulder... We need someone to see what's behind our pain .. he sympathized with me.. good thing he wanted kids too.. or he would not have been able to stand me [email protected]# We had our 1st son there were great times too..

He waited it out, supported me through all the infertility testing-giving his sperm sample, exploratory surgery on me... and it all came to pass.. I think I can relate to you in this way... as I was out of sorts too during that time.. I felt lost, disillusioned...I wasn't who I wanted to be...I surely wasn't at my best !


----------



## MEM2020

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

SA,
The thing about that post is that - certain behaviors are like a very rich dessert - double chocolate cake. Too much and it feels bad, maybe really bad. 

And it is why it's important to pay attention to how your partner is responding to very 'hot/intense' behaviors. If they respond positively that's terrific. If however, they step away from you - verbally or physically - maybe it's just too much for them at that moment in time. Or too much in general. 

Shoot me for saying this but - there's an awful lot of folks who use 'I love you' as a prompt. For those folks - it's really a question camouflaged as a statement. What they really mean is: Do you love me. 

When I say it - only thing I'm looking for is whether M2 seems happy about it. Not to hear it back. If she's happy being loved - I'm good to go. I KNOW M2 loves me. Shows me all the time. Tells me now and then - but not as often as I tell her - which is perfectly fine. 

And M2 - doesn't use it as a prompt either. She just asks, especially when she's being difficult in a funny way. Says: But do you love me?






SimplyAmorous said:


> You are known for breaking down definitions with an insightful clarification in the simplest terms.. this is one of those..
> 
> "Being 'clingy' is defined as: Expressing more love towards and/or more needs towards your partner - than they want you to. "
> 
> This reminds me of your thread >> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/21278-thermostat-ultimate-barometer-your-r.html .... you spoke of clinginess / a temperature a couple needs to be mindful of... I remember telling you yrs ago in a post....we have no thermostat,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> is good - We Like ! ... there is no push back from either of us...
> 
> Still.. a really GOOD thread there !


----------



## SimplyAmorous

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



notmyrealname4 said:


> Harley would not approve of my marriage in any way, shape or form, I am sure :wink2:
> 
> Yeah, the sitting side-by-side on devices is very common now; we sure do a lot of that.
> 
> If I flashed my husband my boobs, he'd smile then go back to what he was doing. :|


There is a poster here who feels everything Harley says is out of date, him & his wife started laughing reading about the emotional needs, then threw the book out - this was yrs ago now, as he is divorced & had a few GF's since then.....he spoke how that doesn't describe him or what he needs at all.. 

This surprised me a bit as even if a # of those didn't fit.. surely a few did....I was tempted to ask WHAT is important to him then... what are his Emotional Wants /desires to sustain a healthy relationship .... I understand some people are put off by the term "NEED" or "NEEDS" since this isn't food, shelter, the air we breathe (that's another post) but we all have innate desires -if we care about intimacy at all ....

Well.. Harley would surely frown on myself & husband enjoying some porn together on occasion... so as much as I resonate with nearly everything he pens... I don't feel this (always) hurts marriages.. it solely depends on the couple.. but he's a Christian man... those are his beliefs, his boundaries... I respect it.. 

We're just not that wholesome & have no desire to be !! 

So @notmyrealname4 ... forget Harley.. do you approve ....or do you long for some changes -to bring you closer together ?? 

I'm assuming you had a different username before we got our passwords reset with your higher poster count here ....I'm wondering who you are , maybe I know more of your story ?


----------



## notmyrealname4

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



SimplyAmorous said:


> There is a poster here who feels everything Harley says is out of date, him & his wife started laughing reading about the emotional needs, then threw the book out - this was yrs ago now, as he is divorced & had a few GF's since then.....he spoke how that doesn't describe him or what he needs at all..
> 
> This surprised me a bit as even if a # of those didn't fit.. surely a few did....I was tempted to ask WHAT is important to him then... what are his Emotional Wants /desires to sustain a healthy relationship .... I understand some people are put off by the term "NEED" or "NEEDS" since this isn't food, shelter, the air we breathe (that's another post) but we all have innate desires -if we care about intimacy at all ....
> 
> Well.. Harley would surely frown on myself & husband enjoying some porn together on occasion... so as much as I resonate with nearly everything he pens... I don't feel this (always) hurts marriages.. it solely depends on the couple.. but he's a Christian man... those are his beliefs, his boundaries... I respect it..
> 
> We're just not that wholesome & have no desire to be !!
> 
> So @notmyrealname4 ... forget Harley.. do you approve ....or do you long for some changes -to bring you closer together ??




I don't think human needs can be broken neatly into categories.

At the same time, if this book (HNHN) draws people together and improves their marriage; I'm all for happy humans.

lol, you would have made a good counselor yourself :grin2: you love researching and understanding human needs and behavior.


I have given up on being closer together. I am trying, instead, to be content with what I have. Being disappointed once in a while is bearable; constant disappointment is acidic to the soul.


----------



## Vega

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



Scannerguard said:


> Now see, speaking to the travel aspect of a relationship and independence, I would like my second career to be a traveling job M-F and I would like to meet a partner who was cool with that. Essentially I would travel Monday through Friday and spend my time teaching healthcare professionals and in my off time, during the week, I hope to exercise and write. I would be well paid for this with benefits.
> 
> Fly back in on Friday and be with her/family. Vacations, holidays. . .all in there. . .being self-employed I never had any of this. I"m single now so I can choose this lifestyle unencumbered.
> 
> But, I have had women scold me saying "Well, you'll never have a relationship that way!!!"
> 
> So maybe this is too unrealistic on how people are wired (wired, to well, "cling". . .darn. . .there goes that negative word). I can't be shaking a Simplyamorous-like SO loose at the airport every week, holding my ankle as I try to board .
> 
> I am not sure I can handle these dramatic partings every week.  (what an ego, lol - yes I'm teasing you SA)
> 
> A guy has gotta roam dear.


But see....someone with your lifestyle would be PERFECT for someone like me! 

I also love exercise and I have no problem doing this alone. And since my *third* career is writing, I would have the time to do this M-F while you were gone, or even when you were home. Even if we traveled together _occasionally_ (new city I've never been too, for example), I could easily entertain myself while you were working. 

Would *we* still be able to have a decent relationship? 

Of COURSE! 

I think it's just a matter of finding someone who has a similar outlook on life.


----------



## heartsbeating

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

Naww thanks MEM!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Vega

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



SimplyAmorous said:


> There is a poster here who feels everything Harley says is out of date, him & his wife started laughing reading about the emotional needs, then threw the book out - this was yrs ago now, as he is divorced & had a few GF's since then.....he spoke how that doesn't describe him or what he needs at all..
> 
> This surprised me a bit as even if a # of those didn't fit.. surely a few did....I was tempted to ask WHAT is important to him then... what are his Emotional Wants /desires to sustain a healthy relationship .... I understand some people are put off by the term "NEED" or "NEEDS" since this isn't food, shelter, the air we breathe (that's another post) but we all have innate desires -if we care about intimacy at all ....
> 
> Well.. Harley would surely frown on myself & husband enjoying some porn together on occasion... so as much as I resonate with nearly everything he pens... I don't feel this (always) hurts marriages.. it solely depends on the couple.. but he's a Christian man... those are his beliefs, his boundaries... I respect it..
> 
> We're just not that wholesome & have no desire to be !!
> 
> So @notmyrealname4 ... forget Harley.. do you approve ....or do you long for some changes -to bring you closer together ??
> 
> I'm assuming you had a different username before we got our passwords reset with your higher poster count here ....I'm wondering who you are , maybe I know more of your story ?


Hi SA,

AWESOME thread! :thumbup:

I read HNHN and Love Buster's waaaaay long ago, before I realized that my late husband was abusive. I thought both books had some good advice, but the advice wouldn't have been applicable to *my* situation.

If I suggested the Policy of Joint Agreement to my late husband, he would have LOVED it. And, he would have poo-pooed EVERY. SINGLE. SUGGESTION. I made. He would have done it because he was controlling. And 'needy'. And 'clingy'. 

As it was, he turned every 'want' into a 'need' because he knew that 'needs' outweigh 'wants'. A 'want' is a luxury. A 'need' is a _requirement_, that is necessary in order to fulfill a 'want' (aka, a _desire_). 

Anywho, I was never a big fan of Harley. :surprise: I took his messages to encourage couples to be more dependent on each other; not interdependent. 

And interdependence is key!


----------



## SimplyAmorous

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



notmyrealname4 said:


> I don't think human needs can be broken neatly into categories.


 but we need to start somewhere, don't we ? 

I've took some criticism for the thread below in my signature for making a list & expounding upon each...I put my heart & soul into that thread....I felt I did something good.... then WHAM...it's like some wanted to reject everything I said - they were turned off basically ....because I laid it out in a "numbered way", basically a LIST -speaking of specific ways to speak love & Admiration to our husbands.. DARN ... BAD ME !!! 

That kinda threw me....I realized in that discussion how some people just don't like lists.. or points written out.. Period...

I am very different ... I am more apt to read something and find a better understanding when someone breaks things down into categories... or in an outline of sorts.. ( @MEM2020 is very good at this ) ... it helps my understanding...but sure.. we can add to it.. or take issue, counter what we read - it's not necessarily true in our situation.. which is what I am seeking with my threads really.. 

If everyone just agreed.. discussions here would be very boring.. wouldn't they ? It's well & good to have some challenging posts - offering another angle !



> At the same time, if this book (HNHN) draws people together and improves their marriage; I'm all for happy humans.


 what I appreciate about his book is this.. he's not a pie in the sky author.. he darn well realizes .. if you suck in how you treat your spouse.. don't be foolish.. you are opening the door -to one of you possibly stepping out, Yes an affair... 

So get back to what he calls *"Extraordinary Care"* towards each other.. Romantic love can be found again.. I think for the most part.. he's right...but then again.. I think a couple has to have enough natural compatibility to make something work.. so maybe I am even a little less Harley than I come off.. 

I am sure him & his wife are naturally compatible.. I would be banging my head against the wall if I wasn't matched well.. I will admit I think I am "too selfish" to survive that.. 



> lol, you would have made a good counselor yourself :grin2: you love researching and understanding human needs and behavior.


 Yes I do.. from my teens years.. I was reading about WHY people believe the way they do (religion).. to why we ACT the way we do (temperaments) to where Romance came from (to love & be loved is the greatest fulfillment - so I've always felt).... then finally SEX became my focus... how much fun was that !! 



> I had a different username from before the password snafu.
> Basically I was pretty sure a relative was hunting around here looking for posts that were mine, so I got it changed (thanks mods).
> 
> I have given up on being closer together. I am trying, instead, to be content with what I have. Being disappointed once in a while is bearable; *constant disappointment is acidic to the soul.*


 That's admirable.. but also very difficult , you've had to grieve or may still be grieving what you no longer believe will happen...

What you said makes me think of this scripture...when I couldn't conceive.. I remember reading this, feeling like this.....







...I longed to see the 2nd half come to pass.. even when I doubted & was angry.... I prayed anyway. 

I hope somehow, some twist of fate, that you both find your way back to each other..


----------



## Scannerguard

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

Hey SA:

As far as your reactions from other posters that may be negative, I actually wonder (only a wonder) if you have ADD. One of the reasons my marriage failed, actually the BIGGEST reason, was figuring out about 2 years later I had ADD, since a child, and it was undiagnosed, severe on the spectrum. My parents actually had an "intervention", lol, as my house had 43 unfinished projects in it.

I don't medicate (you know why). . .I basically manage and live with it.

Don't be freaked out if you do; we all have it. IT's a spectrum disorder.

But your posts remind me of myself in so many ways. . .you continually try to find context to the world. Just realize. . .or what I had a counselor tell me. . .most people don't do this.

Someone else sees a cup of coffee and they see a cup of coffee. . .does it have sugar in it? Probably not. 

You and I see a cup of coffee and we're thinking, "Coffee is grown in Columbia. Columbia is south of the equator, I think. I should really look up that up. It may be north of the equator. I have noticed that countries near the equator tend to be economically volatile. I wonder if temperature and economic volatility are interrelated at all." And our brain is off until something else distracts us. 

And I think ADD people are good lovers like you and I. And while I have stated and still state I admire your penchant to maintain a great relationship, you have also said what a saint your husband is. I bet this is true (my lovers were all saints to put up with me). 

Context. . .we just can't help ourselves. . .our brain is off. It's irresistable. It's a gift and a curse. And when we expose some people to our minds, they react negatively. It's a hurricane in there; it's not a sunny day in a meadow.

Not saying you have it, but I wonder through peering into your writings, penned at 12:12 a.m. (another sign of an ADD person - penning thoughts late hours).

PS: Another sign - your desire for a large family/drama/chaos. ADD people have a part of their brain that needs drama to "stimulate" it to feel normal. That was why I gravitated to ER work. It's estimated that 50% of people who work in an ER have ADD (that stat, unconfirmed astounds me). Your desire to be a SAHM with a large family. . .these writings. . .I dunno... diagnosing from afar and digitally here. . .but its quacking like a duck.


----------



## Steve1000

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



SimplyAmorous said:


> Ok Steve .... I read this ...but WHY ? Are you free or bound?


I was just trying to be funny with that post, but since you asked, I'm married, but it's not the marriage that I had hoped for.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

Seriously @Scannerguard ....your wondering...Let me address....NO.. I don't have Attention Deficit Disorder...nor has anyone ever suggested something like this to me.. you'd be the 1st..

My brain is not like a hurricane (well maybe when I'm PMSing - I've felt it stuck on a hamster wheel...like a rain cloud is following me) but that goes with the territory there.. then it passes.. and everything is sunshine & roses again.....

Why would communicating relationship issues / seeking to find a helpful "context" a couple can live with , showing interest here = having some misfired brain function....Is it an odd past time.. well sure.. I suppose it is!!.... Maybe I'd be better off joining a Gym ..I don't know...I just don't have any desire to get all hot & Sweaty -at least not in that way..

I would never go those lengths wondering about a cup of coffee, running with all that...I realize just an example...but this I can't say happens with me.. 

I enjoy bouncing various subjects off of other people... why not.. it's learning.. it opens our world wider to others experiences.. I also LOVE the History Channel, Documentaries and Non-fiction.. this is what I'd seek in a Library .... We all focus on what interests us.. I went to the store today.. seeking to buy a new vacuum but decided to come back home , read reviews online, do a little research before I randomly buy a piece of junk at Walmart I might regret.. 

What any of our brains are focusing on at any given moment.. if only we could open our heads up & peer in, that might be scary!.... 3rd son is soon to be taking Electrical Engineering.... I know when he's quiet.. like waiting in a hour long line for a roller coaster.. he is drawn to the mechanics of the hydraulics - what stops the coaster.. he's fascinated by all of it....his wheels are spinning....mentally piecing it together...we talked about this in the coaster line one day..... Cool... would my mind go there.. hell no.. I might be checking out some hot guy in front of us or thinking those loud obnoxious people beside us needs to go die! I would be "observing people" more so.. 

43 unfinished Projects [email protected]# ... How did your wife not want to kill you Scanner !! :cussing:... Oh but she did.. right !? 

When I start a project.. I am bound & determined to finish it or I'd be highly upset with myself, I don't like things hanging in the air.. I'm not a procrastinator ...I like things done "yesterday"... I can be a perfectionist in some areas ... Yes...but then others.. not at all ! .... I do have a lot of energy... a little high test for a woman, probably. .. this week I've not caught up on my sleep.... I am working near 40 hrs & I still try to find time to post here.. I started this thread.. and I want to add to it...

I LIKE to THINK....I Love to communicate.... why .. I don't know.. I am also introverted and like to hibernate down on the Farm too....I could go long stretches of time just me & husband and not care if I see another soul.. this includes our kids !! 

When I use the terms I wanted "the Drama, the Chaos" speaking of children.. maybe it's because I know OTHERS feel children are THIS, so I use those words... but truth is.. I would not seek Drama & Chaos.. (maybe I shouldn't use these words, if this is the impression I am giving)....

Really...our kids have been very easy to Raise.. good grades, we love their friends, virtually no drama.. the worst has been when our oldest put his arm through a window, freak accident, almost severed a tendon (the worry!)....and 2nd son's devastating heart break (feeling HIS pain, again the worry!) ...but outside of this, the normal ebb & flow of parenting , it's been nearly all smooth sailing here... we are thankful ! 

I would enjoy some solitude as much as anyone else.. A beautiful "take me away" moment would be kicking back...laying on a hammock under a shade tree , book in my hand...no kids.. no interruptions.. the birds singing in the background...a slice of heaven.. 










I do feel.. our life would be rather BORING without some kids.. we're not exactly the most adventurous couple around, being "home-bodies" and all.. we've always tried to watch our $$ carefully so we're not out running here & there, enjoying the high life.. But yes.. children have added a great deal to our lives...

I envied my friends growing up with large close knit families... I wanted that.. (is this so Odd , far fetched - actually I think it may be more common than you think for an only child)... so it makes sense I wanted to give our children siblings.. something I never had.. 

I suppose by saying my husband is a Saint.. this is speaking I am "hell fire" to live with somehow.. I guess this is another exaggeration I may need to lay down...I'm not THAT BAD.. nor was I ever that bad...

Is he more Patient, caring & loving than I feel the average Joe is... I believe so... He has seen me through some hard times ....when I hated living with my step Mother, when she'd put notes on the fridge door to keep my f'n hands off the food.. I cried on his shoulder ..I was angry, I was a damsel in distress (Men should RUN LIKE hell -isn't this what we tell them!)......I wanted out of there .... then years of worrying we may never have another child, I wasn't always a Joy....Yet he would say I wasn't all that bad.. 

Outside of those seasons of my life.. .I am generally a happy bubbly woman.....even if I have a "realist" "Pessimistic" side to me as well... I care about my own happiness, YES (don't we all).... but I don't want it at the expense of others, dragging them down...even during the bad times.. I validated him - thanked him for how he's always treated me.. I always gave back too.. 

I strive to be self aware in all my dealings, I do care to get along with other people, to be more of a blessing over a burden of some sort.. 

I think we all have some similarities with other posters here in given areas (like you've noticed some similarities between us & wanting some context), but it could end there you see....

Now me reading you....I'd bet you are a "E X T P" on Temperament tests "Extroverted ___ Thinking Perceiving" ... tell me if I am right ?


----------



## Scannerguard

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

Hmmm. I reacted the same way a bit the first time. . .a little annoyed. I swear I didn't mean anything by it.

But, I just see you finding context to everything; it's totally cool! If you are, seriously WELCOME TO THE CLUB. If not, then my apologies for freaking you. (or insulting, but it's really not an insult)

But yeah, I do just blurt out things, very undiplomatic of me at times. . .again, sorry if I offended.

Yeah, um, the kid/drama thing, but here's the way I see it and who knows. . .I MAY BE TOTALLY OFF here. . .but no matter how you slice it. . .5 kids is drama. Good drama to you. But drama nonetheless. Chaos HAS to abound. Just like the ER. But that's when you are at your best. . .you are getting the stimulation you need. I could deny the ER isn't drama; it's just a job. But you would come there and see patients in the hallway and say, "How do you DEAL with this? ER nurses screaming for this and that. The phone ringing. Needy patients." But my brain is "on" then.

Furthermore, ADD people are actually a conundrum. . .they go through periods of unfocused but then when they fixate on something. . .it's hyperfocus. For instance, they will write and write and realize they had to pee 1 hour ago. You said that when you were trying to conceive and having kids was the goal, you became very impatient with your husband. The hyperfocus of that time was getting pregnant and you said you were, well, difficult about it (I think you said that. . .correct me if my memory is wrong - maybe you weren't difficult - we could ask your husband  ).

You were hyperfocused. But once you conceived, you totally relaxed about it. To an non-ADD person, they would be like "Why all the focus on getting pregnant? Can't it just happen?" But it's just the brain.

Meh. I could be totally off. I don't live with you or know you. I know your writings though and it's quacking like a duck. And again, they are a gift of insight so please forgive me for my undiplomatic posts. 

And actually the diagnosis of ADD still remains controversial; some docs don't know if it even exists. It's more a set of traits. You can take online tests and tell me I was wrong. Seriously. I will apologize if wrong. If right, you will say, "Damn you, Scannerguard!" and stew. 

But you seem to be on a quest for self-understanding so I thought I would throw it out there. Let me know.

Peace.

(and spot on - my ex-wife did want to kill me. It was hard being married to me. I'm totally down with that. It brought me peace when I realized that and I realized why)

PS: You could just be insightful, self-reflective, meditative and thoughtful and it ends there.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



Scannerguard said:


> Yeah, um, the kid/drama thing, but here's the way I see it and who knows. . .I MAY BE TOTALLY OFF here. . .but no matter how you slice it. . .5 kids is drama. Good drama to you. But drama nonetheless. Chaos HAS to abound. Just like the ER. But that's when you are at your best. . .you are getting the stimulation you need. I could deny the ER isn't drama; it's just a job. But you would come there and see patients in the hallway and say, "How do you DEAL with this? ER nurses screaming for this and that. The phone ringing. Needy patients." But my brain is "on" then.


 Well yeah I can handle some intensity.. I am focused for this.. I wanted this .... but still I would not say Chaos reigns here.... and it's 6 kids.. 1 flew the nest... 2 will be at college this year....I am a meticulously organized woman... I've never been late on a bill, never bounced a check, I do not miss much and I handle all of our schedules here....If I was scatterbrained.. we'd all be in a mess ! I told my husband about your wonderings.. he doesn't understand why anyone would think that of me.. 

I could never never work in an ER situation.. that would be TOO MUCH PRESSURE, too much stress for me, on the verge of life & death .. I am in direct care right now.. it's more laid back & I work the graveyard shift... I much prefer that.. 



> Furthermore, ADD people are actually a conundrum. . .they go through periods of unfocused but then when they fixate on something. . .it's hyperfocus. For instance, they will write and write and realize they had to pee 1 hour ago.


Oh I can be hyperfocused.. been there.. done that.. but this doesn't mean everything else goes to crap... Anyway.. who cares.. why is this even coming up ....how off the beaten path.. you have taken a # of my admitted flaws (hey we all have some .. it's not a big deal) ...and you are hyper focusing on them - trying to make something of it.. then adding my writings are "quacking like a duck"... :wtf: 



> You said that when you were trying to conceive and having kids was the goal, you became very impatient with your husband. The hyperfocus of that time was getting pregnant and you said you were, well, difficult about it (I think you said that. . .correct me if my memory is wrong - maybe you weren't difficult - we could ask your husband  ).


 I was Moody, envious of my friends getting pregnant.. but he was there.... he supported me through it all.. . I was tired of people telling me to relax, sometimes I wanted to rip their heads off.. until someone has been there.. they just don't know HOW that feels.. unless they have wanted those same things. 

I needed a surgery so no matter how much relaxing I did.. I'd be barren today without the doctors knife so to speak...



> You were hyperfocused. But once you conceived, you totally relaxed about it. To an non-ADD person, they would be like "Why all the focus on getting pregnant? Can't it just happen?" But it's just the brain.


I'd say this can be similar for someone whose carried these deep desires within their hearts since they were young.. it was a crushing blow to me.....can we just say I have a propensity to get angry when I don't get my way.. Maybe I am a big baby...and I needed some patience.. 

Obviously I did.. maybe I needed some FAITH.. obviously I did.. as it all worked out -in the end...


----------



## SimplyAmorous

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



MEM2020 said:


> SA,
> The thing about that post is that - certain behaviors are like a very rich dessert - double chocolate cake. Too much and it feels bad, maybe really bad.
> 
> *And it is why it's important to pay attention to how your partner is responding to very 'hot/intense' behaviors. If they respond positively that's terrific. If however, they step away from you - verbally or physically - maybe it's just too much for them at that moment in time. Or too much in general*.


 I can't say I've ever felt this from my husband.. only the positive....so although we haven't experienced it, it was a very interesting read...and it makes sense ....I did find it rather sad for the one who was wanting more though.. but that's just where I am coming from, as I wouldn't want to push my husband away if he was trying to get closer to me.. it's never been "too much" on my end either..



> *Shoot me for saying this but - there's an awful lot of folks who use 'I love you' as a prompt. For those folks - it's really a question camouflaged as a statement. What they really mean is: Do you love me. *


 I've seen posts here called out - that they are "fishing"...and yeah it's important to acknowledge our own motivations.. I can't help but think though... if one has to FISH for this reassurance... something is amiss in the relationship, isn't it ?? Is doing the hot & cold dance going to address this ?? 

When one's actions consistently line up with their words.... reassurance is alive in a relationship.... I've always felt his wanting to spend time, feeling his enjoyment, his engagement & his touch conveyed all I needed... but but but who doesn't appreciate some *words* of affirmation too.. I certainly do.. I'd never knock it.. 

I think the only time I questioned or got hung up on something like this... it wasn't even about love.. it was about *HIS DESIRE*.. I questioned his desire when he couldn't keep up.. never his love... was I loosing my sex appeal.. NOOOOOOO [email protected]# 

Heck I can be too forthcoming...I even spoke to him how I cared MORE about this DESIRE over his LOVE .... I was mixed up....all I cared about was.. "Give me the rod - I need it now!"....

The things that flew out of my mouth... it was a crazy time.. but yes.. I longed for feeling he was as HOT as me for it ...feeling this free to express that - in it's own way.. I never for a moment questioned his love.. my sheer vulnerability - he made it so easy..



> *When I say it - only thing I'm looking for is whether M2 seems happy about it. Not to hear it back. If she's happy being loved - I'm good to go*. I KNOW M2 loves me. Shows me all the time. Tells me now and then - but not as often as I tell her - which is perfectly fine.


 But are you saying it -just to benefit her , to make her happy.. (I mean I guess we do this) or it is more how you are feeling in that moment, coming directly from the







basically? 

I enjoy expressing my love, satisfaction, happiness ...to validate him... I've told @jld .. a man who didn't care or enjoy this part of me ... I would be bothered -if it meant nothing to him, like "Oh there she goes again!"... like it was a waste of breath.... This doesn't mean I want an insecure man who needs built up ...it's not that... but it does mean I want a "FEELING" man.... a man who appreciates my emotion, and it's expression. Whether this be good or bad.... I want the ability to "move" him too...

So many ways to convey "I love you"... it need not always be words....I especially love those times he comes home, tells me of a song he heard on the radio, thinking of me...it's very special... Music is very moving , it speaks for us..it brings back memories of a time.. a place...when every day he kisses me before he leaves & I'm the 1st thing he looks for when he comes home.. ... how much I would miss if he was taken from me.. 

We Love Hard.. we will fall HARD...



> *And M2 - doesn't use it as a prompt either. She just asks, especially when she's being difficult in a funny way. Says: But do you love me?*


I'm guilty of saying to him (years back now)....he's on top of me telling me I'm his soul mate & how much he loves me, never wants to hurt me and I blurt out .... "But do you DESIRE ME ? "... Oh some of our moments...







...


----------



## jld

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

SA, I do not see anything, in any way, nor ever have, that indicates you are ADD. Nothing at all. As a matter of fact, you are one of the last people I would ever imagine being that way. Totally agree with Mr SA that I cannot understand why anyone would think that about you. 

I certainly did not hear any "quacking," though I suspect you are right on the mark that Scannerguard is an E"X"TP. He reminds me of another poster here who is ENTP. 

I also totally agree you are a "meticulously organized" woman, who has everything under control in your home/family. What a gift for Mr SA that binder full of all relevant household info is! If anything happened to you, he could just pick up that binder and know what to do. 

If Dug and I were to have a binder like that, we would have to make it together. You, otoh, were able to do it all yourself. Mr SA is very lucky!


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## heartsbeating

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



notmyrealname4 said:


> That would be scary.
> 
> I guess we *do* have to let our spouses be themselves as much as possible. If we love them, we want them to flourish.
> 
> But if it is something _potentially_ life-threatening that they enjoy; then I think it is very understanding of you to be so supportive.


I've missed the mark many times over the years; might finally be getting what it's all about. Maybe too, because he makes it easy for me to love and support him, tells me things straight and demonstrates actions. 

I'd arrived home from work, he had the massage table set up ready to help ease my neck pain. It's something he said he would do, I'd forgotten all about it. Despite his intention, it wasn't to happen. We finished eating dinner together at the table, which is quality time for us, sharing and chatting, when the 'bat signal' went off and he leaped into action. 

In his rush, he accidentally trod on my toe on the way out, felt like I'd stubbed it. I told him not to speed and be careful. He said it wasn't the time to nag him. And he was gone. From the fire engine on the way to the call, he texted, 'Sorry toes xox' 

How he could even think about my stubbed toe ha ha, with what he was preparing to face, blew me away... and meant a lot.


----------



## Anon1111

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

I think the categories aren't rigid.

At one time, I had what I thought was a "romantic" marriage. I did all sorts of corny romantic sh-t, but it was well received. We were extremely close, best friends, the whole thing.

Then, it turned into what was probably perceived by my wife to be a "sponge" relationship. The "romantic" stuff was no longer well received. There was no interest in being close. Increasing the "romantic" load did not bring us closer, it created additional tension.

Later, it turned by default into an "independent" relationship. I mainly try to let go of my desire to connect and seek happiness elsewhere. On the whole, I think I am a more complete person as a result of going through this. 

However, I'm not sure there is any real "relationship" in a truly independent existence. It's like, if you expect nothing from the other person, what sort of relationship is it really? The charitable view, I guess, is that it's like a parent/child relationship in which you give but expect nothing back. The not so charitable view is that it's nothing and a total waste of any energy you apply to it.

From time to time, I still "relapse" into seeking a connection. I almost always regret this because I am almost always rejected.

I laugh at the "15 hrs per week" supposed requirement. My wife would rather read by herself or go to the gym by herself or text with her friends than connect with me on any level. I would say we spend less than 30 minutes per week total where we actually interact 1 on 1. 

And then the real catch 22 is that she will tell me that she does not feel close to me because we lack an "emotional connection." 

I can't even get angry over this anymore because it is all so absurd. I am doing this to myself at this point so I only blame myself for having any expectation that it could be different.


----------



## jld

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

She feeds herself any way she can, Anon. You have been given advice on how to feed her. It seems to have gone completely unheeded.


----------



## Anon1111

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



jld said:


> She feeds herself any way she can, Anon. You have been given advice on how to feed her. It seems to have gone completely unheeded.


your marriage is great so you can't conceive of a man doing the right thing and not being met with love by a woman for doing it

there is a big world out there that does not totally conform to your life experience


----------



## SimplyAmorous

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



jld said:


> SA, I do not see anything, in any way, nor ever have, that indicates you are ADD. Nothing at all. As a matter of fact, you are one of the last people I would ever imagine being that way. Totally agree with Mr SA that I cannot understand why anyone would think that about you.
> 
> I certainly did not hear any "quacking," though I suspect you are right on the mark that Scannerguard is an E"X"TP. He reminds me of another poster here who is ENTP.
> 
> I also totally agree you are a "meticulously organized" woman, who has everything under control in your home/family. What a gift for Mr SA that binder full of all relevant household info is! If anything happened to you, he could just pick up that binder and know what to do.
> 
> If Dug and I were to have a binder like that, we would have to make it together. You, otoh, were able to do it all yourself. Mr SA is very lucky!


You are so impressed with this notebook Jld.. makes me laugh!! It is a good idea for couples.. just in case..  

Speaking of ADD/ ADHD ... We have good friends where the husband has some "spectrum" issues....he's takes Adderall ...so I have some idea of what we're speaking about, having seen & listened to his wife 1st hand, how it can affect a marriage... 

Yes....she wants to pull her hair out some days... he struggled holding down a job in their early years.. he'd get let go for this reason or that....but this got better... he's on a great run now & makes some decent money...but she's told me there are many things she could not leave to him for fear it may not get done...

But she loves him... he's surely gifted in some areas.. we ENJOY him a great deal.. he's an entertaining story teller / Conversationalist and we always have a great time, lots of laughs when we visit... 

But this man NEEDS his meds.. or I doubt his wife could stay with him.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



Anon1111 said:


> I think the categories aren't rigid.
> 
> At one time, I had what I thought was a "romantic" marriage. I did all sorts of corny romantic sh-t, but it was well received. We were extremely close, best friends, the whole thing.
> 
> Then, it turned into what was probably perceived by my wife to be a "sponge" relationship. The "romantic" stuff was no longer well received. There was no interest in being close. Increasing the "romantic" load did not bring us closer, it created additional tension.
> 
> Later, it turned by default into an "independent" relationship. I mainly try to let go of my desire to connect and seek happiness elsewhere. On the whole, I think I am a more complete person as a result of going through this.
> 
> However, I'm not sure there is any real "relationship" in a truly independent existence. It's like, if you expect nothing from the other person, what sort of relationship is it really? The charitable view, I guess, is that it's like a parent/child relationship in which you give but expect nothing back. The not so charitable view is that it's nothing and a total waste of any energy you apply to it.
> 
> From time to time, I still "relapse" into seeking a connection. I almost always regret this because I am almost always rejected.
> 
> I laugh at the "15 hrs per week" supposed requirement. My wife would rather read by herself or go to the gym by herself or text with her friends than connect with me on any level. I would say we spend less than 30 minutes per week total where we actually interact 1 on 1.
> 
> And then the real catch 22 is that she will tell me that she does not feel close to me because we lack an "emotional connection."
> 
> I can't even get angry over this anymore because it is all so absurd. I am doing this to myself at this point so I only blame myself for having any expectation that it could be different.


 @Anon1111 it's not that I want to give you a







for this.. it's just that what you have laid out here is THE OTHER SIDE of this..it's a very dark side.. a painful side... how a couple can start out one way, Romantic & full of hope..... then little by little...it can be eaten away and the 2 that felt "one" find themselves as nothing more than roommates, content to seek other people out to fill their days.. ignoring each other, blame shifting, making excuses ..and just "enduring" a marriage. 

I don't know your story...it almost sounds as though you don't have a problem with Harley or what he says.. just that you're experience is SHE isn't budging......

I do believe us women can be hard nosed & hurt our men, probably easier to hurt a softer man, taking him for granted ....it always takes 2....the seed could have been started by either... then we start "reacting".. and it snowballs from there, at this point.. it's always "the other's fault". 

I think it would be awful to feel your hands are tied here.. who wants further rejection.. 

Anytime I read something like this. ...my 1st thought is...*RESENTMENT*... what happened years ago... even if they were little things, maybe they were bigger TO HER .... What seed was started here that grew & grew strangling your emotional connection with each other.... there are answers to these questions.. once resentment gets so embedded.. some couples can never find their way back...this is why they need the help of a counselor to dig that up.. the grudge holding effects have to be worked through and forgiven.. basically...

I liked that you brought up the "Romantic marriage" sort of model.. I know this is what Harley speaks of, it seems very obvious from his writings (at least to me)... even if he isn't using these terms... (more in the next post on this)...


----------



## Anon1111

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



SimplyAmorous said:


> @Anon1111 it's not that I want to give you a
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> for this.. it's just that what you have laid out here is THE OTHER SIDE of this..it's a very dark side.. a painful side... how a couple can start out one way, Romantic & full of hope..... then little by little...it can be eaten away and the 2 that felt "one" find themselves as nothing more than roommates, content to seek other people out to fill their days.. ignoring each other, blame shifting, making excuses ..and just "enduring" a marriage.
> 
> I don't know your story...it almost sounds as though you don't have a problem with Harley or what he says.. just that you're experience is SHE isn't budging......
> 
> I do believe us women can be hard nosed & hurt our men, probably easier to hurt a softer man, taking him for granted ....it always takes 2....the seed could have been started by either... then we start "reacting".. and it snowballs from there, at this point.. it's always "the other's fault".
> 
> I think it would be awful to feel your hands are tied here.. who wants further rejection..
> 
> Anytime I read something like this. ...my 1st thought is...*RESENTMENT*... what happened years ago... even if they were little things, maybe they were bigger TO HER .... What seed was started here that grew & grew strangling your emotional connection with each other.... there are answers to these questions.. once resentment gets so embedded.. some couples can never find their way back...this is why they need the help of a counselor to dig that up.. the grudge holding effects have to be worked through and forgiven.. basically...
> 
> I liked that you brought up the "Romantic marriage" sort of model.. I know this is what Harley speaks of, it seems very obvious from his writings (at least to me)... even if he isn't using these terms... (more in the next post on this)...


we have a very complicated relationship with 2 special needs kids so I try very hard to give her the benefit of the doubt

I don't think her disinterest in me is at all intentional, but it is disinterest and even though I am somewhat numb after many years of this, from time to time I still feel something.

I am trying very hard to not let her or my children down despite the fact that I am completely alone in this marriage

I know I could walk out the door tomorrow and find a woman who really would appreciate me, but I have not yet made that choice.

I grow very close to acting on that from time to time because I can't contemplate a lifetime of zero love or affection.

Eventually I will act on it if I conclude there is no hope for us.

It would take so little from her to turn me in the other direction.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: The Love Busting &quot;Independent behavior&quot; attitude &amp; how it can hurt our marriages.*

I'm sorry to see that nothing has changed for you, brother.


----------



## jld

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

What specifically does she need to do? What exactly is the "so little"?


----------



## SimplyAmorous

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



Anon1111 said:


> we have a very complicated relationship *with 2 special needs kids* so I try very hard to give her the benefit of the doubt


 this speaks enough right here.. I feel for you.. for her.. this wouldn't be easy .. I think only those who have been there can truly understand even...I find the parents who can love & snap back so easily.. they are special too.. it's harder for others...

I assumed Resentment so quickly.. but sometimes it's life's circumstances -they hit HARD & without warning.....I can see how it's just too much for some ..



> *I don't think her disinterest in me is at all intentional,* but it is disinterest and even though I am somewhat numb after many years of this, from time to time I still feel something.


 this probably helps some.. that it's not intentional but still.. very painful.. alone. 



> *I am trying very hard to not let her or my children down despite the fact that I am completely alone in this marriage*


 You are a good man for WANTING the do the right thing by them.. I still very much sympathize with you.



> I know I could walk out the door tomorrow and find a woman who really would appreciate me, but I have not yet made that choice.
> 
> I grow very close to acting on that from time to time because I can't contemplate a lifetime of zero love or affection.
> 
> *Eventually I will act on it if I conclude there is no hope for us.
> 
> It would take so little from her to turn me in the other direction.*


 It may take your leaving... for her to wake up and realize what she lost.. or is about to lose... it's a shame it often happens this way.. why are we so stupid.. allowing things to go on THAT LONG when we could have made it all so much simpler...working together, for comfort & holding each other up during the difficult... I don't know...


----------



## SimplyAmorous

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

On the *Romantic Marriage* model.....I mentioned this book earlier >> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/335033-if-you-good-marriage.html ...listing 5 examples of marriages: (Romantic, Rescue , Companionate, Traditional & Renegotiating - covered in this book)...

A few snippets from this chapter:











> It is fashionable to think that passionate or Romantic love is short lived, that disenchantment sets in after a year or 2, and that realism descends with a 9-5 job and diaper pails. We've all been told that the cold light of day is different from the enchantment f starlight. Songwriters, after all, do not pen verses that begin "Daylight becomes you...."
> 
> But even before I undertook this study of happy marriages, I knew long -married couples who had maintained a loving, romantic, and often passionate vision of each other during their thousands of days & nights together. I wondered how common such romantic marriages were . Did they happen only to the lucky few ? Were they as rare as the blue moon...
> 
> I was surprised to find that some 15% of the happily married couples in the study fell into the Romantic Marriage category.. ...after 20, 30, even 40 yrs .. such couples spoke of mutual love, passion, excitement & ecstasy...
> 
> In speaking about their relationships, the men & women in romantic marriages said that their mate had brought JOY to their lives, and when they spoke of hopes for their children, they looked at their own marriage as the richest legacy they could bestow. After 25 yrs of marriage , a man told me, "My wish for my children is that they feel the joy of loving someone that I've felt in our marriage".
> 
> Many couples in romantic marriages have a sense that they are connected by a magic that transcends time & space, they speak in mystical terms, as if their meeting were pre-ordained or the answer to a prayer.
> 
> My Observations showed clearly that idealization & fantasy are not necessarily doomed to end when the honeymoon is over.. In fact, many early idealizations translate well into reality and are even strengthened by life experiences.
> 
> In happy marriages the high expectations of courtship are modified to fit life's inevitable disappointments, but they are never entirely given up.. "I'd rather spend an evening with him than anyone I've ever met" said a wife of 30 yrs...
> 
> In the romantic marriages I studied, these *idealizations *are more powerful, more erotic, more closely linked to *vivid memories* of wonder of the 1st meeting than in other marriage types...the mutual sense of Physical & Emotional connection was evident in those memories which were filled with tingling sensory impressions & suffused with light.
> 
> Marriage without fantasy or idealization is dull & dispirited. Many of the divorced couples I've seen appear to have never idealized each other. I've learned to ask myself about a divorcing couple...was there ever love, joy, hope, idealization in this relationship? Often I'm hard to put a find on it.. Divorce does not always represent an erosion of love or high expectations; in many cases the expectations weren't high enough.
> 
> Idealization of the other is part of every happy marriage. In a romantic marriage the early idealizations remain very powerful.


----------



## Anon1111

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



jld said:


> What specifically does she need to do? What exactly is the "so little"?


I want normal husband/wife stuff. Not even normal. Like a fraction of normal.

Sex once a week would be nice. We've had sex 1 time in the last 3 months and I could barely deal with the f-ing buildup it required.

Demonstrating any interest in me at all as a person would be great. Like noticing if I get a haircut or buying me a father's day gift or anything normal.

But actually, I really don't want her to do anything she does not want to do.

That is the problem. She clearly has no desire to do the things that I would want her to do.

I realize she has very high emotional demands on her from our children (I do too by the way, but it's worse for her, I admit), so I don't want to be _another _demand on her.

At the same time, she should just want to be nice and have an actual relationship with her husband who is dealing with this f-d up situation with her every day.

The fact that she clearly doesn't is really the issue.


----------



## jld

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

Anon, she seemed more pro-active last fall, before you left TAM. What has happened since?

SA, please let me know if you don't want us to further discuss Anon's issues here, okay?


----------



## Anon1111

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



jld said:


> Anon, she seemed more pro-active last fall, before you left TAM. What has happened since?
> 
> SA, please let me know if you don't want us to further discuss Anon's issues here, okay?


it's basically the same. it's actually remarkably consistent. I keep logs, so I'm not imagining the consistency.

the biggest change is I really try to no longer push for anything from her. I also do my best not to withhold anything from her.

So for example I listen when she decides she wants to tell me some frustration or whatever. "Active listening"-- your favorite. 

I also try to do nice things for her here and there without any expectation that she will return the favor or even acknowledge it (e.g., clean the house, take kids away for an afternoon by myself, get her a bottle of wine or something, etc). 

It's tricky because I can't do too much of this without building resentment, so sometimes I just limit myself. Less so than I used to though. I'm getting better at this.

But it really has no effect on our relationship. 

I got rejected for sex the last two nights in a row.

I rarely initiate anymore, so I'm a bit sensitive today about this. 

I feel pretty dumb that I went for it last night, but we had a nice night where she was talking to me and I was listening in bed, so I thought we were feeling close to one another. 

She chose to read her book instead saying she just wanted some alone time.


----------



## jld

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

You are sleeping in the bed with her every night?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EllisRedding

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

@Anon1111 - I must say, I have no idea how you are able to keep at it, even if you do limit yourself. I would just end up distancing myself from my W which would definitely move things towards a D


----------



## Anon1111

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



EllisRedding said:


> @Anon1111 - I must say, I have no idea how you are able to keep at it, even if you do limit yourself. I would just end up distancing myself from my W which would definitely move things towards a D


I did the distance thing for a while, but I ultimately realized that as long as I wasn't willing to D, that I was really being inconsistent by having this attitude

so I try to now be as "in it" as I possibly can


----------



## SimplyAmorous

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



jld said:


> Anon, she seemed more pro-active last fall, before you left TAM. What has happened since?
> 
> SA, please let me know if you don't want us to further discuss Anon's issues here, okay?


 Doesn't bother me at all. His is an example of a spouse not willing to heed helpful marital advice -like Harley's, to give our spouses that "Extraordinary care" / spending time with each other, etc ... oh what a difference it could make if she just started TRYING...baby steps even.. an "I'm sorry" if she misses it ...these little things could mean so very much. 

I'm sure he'd be "over the moon" with SOMETHING, showing a renewed enthusiasm doing all he could to keep that going.. but he needs something to work with -other than rejection, and apathy at every turn....

How he holds onto hope with this.. I don't know.... men like @Anon1111 , I see as the GOOD GUYS...the one's who put themselves last, so honorable for staying - yet it's like a prison for them... It's hard to know what to say because we all need something coming back to us.. to keep our spirits up - to keep some glimmer of hope alive.. is she depressed.. is this it ??

I don't have the answers -other than it may take his leaving to awaken her to what she's lost.... it shouldn't be this way, it's so backwards & such a waste.... but I believe it IS for some people..


----------



## jld

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



SimplyAmorous said:


> doesn't bother me at all. His is an example of a spouse not willing to heed helpful marital advice -like Harley's... oh what a difference it could make if she just started TRYING.. I'm sure he'd show enthusiasm and do all he could to keep that going.. but he needs something to work with -other than rejection, and apathy at every turn....
> 
> How he holds onto hope with this.. I don't know.... men like @Anon1111 , I see as the GOOD GUYS...the one's who put themselves last, so honorable for staying - yet it's like a prison for them... It's hard to know what to say because we all need something coming back to us.. to keep our spirits up - to keep some glimmer of hope alive.. is she depressed.. is this it ??
> 
> I don't have the answers -other than it may take his leaving to awaken her to what she's lost.... it shouldn't be this way, it's so backwards & such a waste.... but I believe it IS for some people..


We don't hear from her, though, you know?


----------



## jld

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



Anon1111 said:


> I did the distance thing for a while, but I ultimately realized that as long as I wasn't willing to D, that I was really being inconsistent by having this attitude
> 
> so I try to now be as "in it" as I possibly can


I think that is really good, Anon. No manipulation.


----------



## heartsbeating

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

SA, I read post # 96 a few times over... I'm undecided how I feel about what 'idealization' in that sense means and if I even understand it correctly. How do you interpret it? There's certainly a lot to be said for having and feeling joy. 

My husband telling me 'now wasn't the time to nag him' as he left the house, helped me realize I was saying it for my own benefit. He was out 6-7 hours. Based on what I knew, while he was out, I considered what _he_ might need. When he arrived home, I had a big glass of water and hot tea at his bedside. He was surprised I was still awake. He gulped the water, said it was just what he needed, appreciated the tea, and told me all about it. He looked exhausted. T-shirt covered in sweat, grey smokey streaks across his face, and smelling like smoke. He went to have a quick shower. I rolled over and momentarily closed my eyes, before realizing this was another moment that could be shared. I got up, jumped in with him. We washed the smoke away and made-out in the shower. Then collapsed into bed in a tired, romantic, heap.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



jld said:


> We don't hear from her, though, you know?


It always troubles when you say this, JLD. 

I know there are two sides to every story, but this feels like overwhelming sympathy/empathy for his wife and little for him.

Their situation is enough to sink most people.


----------



## jld

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



farsidejunky said:


> It always troubles when you say this, JLD.
> 
> I know there are two sides to every story, but *this feels like overwhelming sympathy/empathy for his wife and little for him.*
> 
> Their situation is enough to sink most people.


And the bolded is what it feels like to me, in reverse, when I read certain posts, far.


----------



## Anon1111

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



jld said:


> You are sleeping in the bed with her every night?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would say 50/50.

our younger son has a lot of trouble settling down at night so we often take turns sleeping with him when he can't calm down.

on the nights where he goes to sleep fairly easily, we are in the same bed.


----------



## jld

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



Anon1111 said:


> I would say 50/50.
> 
> our younger son has a lot of trouble settling down at night so we often take turns sleeping with him when he can't calm down.
> 
> on the nights where he goes to sleep fairly easily, we are in the same bed.


I think you know why I asked. Nothing was said in the past about your younger son being a part of it.

At any rate, glad to hear you are back in the same bed.


----------



## Anon1111

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



farsidejunky said:


> It always troubles when you say this, JLD.
> 
> I know there are two sides to every story, but this feels like overwhelming sympathy/empathy for his wife and little for him.
> 
> Their situation is enough to sink most people.


I think it's a fair point.

there are always two sides to every story. if A2 saw the world exactly as I do (or vice versa), there'd be no issue between us.

I don't think either one of us is a bad person or is intentionally doing anything to the other.


----------



## Anon1111

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



jld said:


> I think you know why I asked. Nothing was said in the past about your younger son being a part of it.
> 
> At any rate, glad to hear you are back in the same bed.


yeah, I'm not intentionally avoiding her like I was a while back.

I generally have zero expectations now when I'm around her, so this has lessoned the stakes surrounding any interaction.


----------



## jld

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



Anon1111 said:


> I think it's a fair point.
> 
> there are always two sides to every story. if A2 saw the world exactly as I do (or vice versa), there'd be no issue between us.
> 
> I don't think either one of us is a bad person or is intentionally doing anything to the other.


I am _sure_ neither one of you is a bad person, nor intentionally stressing the other. And I am very proud of you for not only staying with her, but dropping the manipulation. Shows growth, maturity. 

I just wish you didn't take her rejection personally.

Did you ask her why there was no FD gift or card?


----------



## Anon1111

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



jld said:


> I am _sure_ neither one of you is a bad person, nor intentionally stressing the other. And I am very proud of you for not only staying with her, but dropping the manipulation. Shows growth, maturity.
> 
> I just wish you didn't take her rejection personally.
> 
> Did you ask her why there was no FD gift or card?


honestly, you should try getting rejected hundreds of times by your spouse and see if you don't feel a personal twinge.

or try rejecting Dug the next 50 times he tries to initiate and see what happens.

nice idea to not take it personally, but totally unrealistic.

that said, I have come a LONG way in this department. I no longer get angry about it. I don't allow it to affect my behavior very much at all. at the end of the day, I don't want her to do anything she doesn't want to do. and the things I do for her are not conditioned on her delivering something to me.

I did not ask her why she did not get me anything for father's day. I also did not ask her why she didn't get me anything for Christmas or my birthday. I think it's pretty obvious.


----------



## jld

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



Anon1111 said:


> honestly, you should try getting rejected hundreds of times by your spouse and see if you don't feel a personal twinge.


That really would feel strange. I just can't see myself taking it personally, though. I would feel like he had a problem.



> or try rejecting Dug the next 50 times he tries to initiate and see what happens.


No, that would never go over. Would not even try. 

And really, have no desire to.



> nice idea to not take it personally, but totally unrealistic.
> 
> that said, I have come a LONG way in this department. I no longer get angry about it. I don't allow it to affect my behavior very much at all. at the end of the day, I don't want her to do anything she doesn't want to do. and the things I do for her are not conditioned on her delivering something to me.


Excellent, Anon.



> I did not ask her why she did not get me anything for father's day. I also did not ask her why she didn't get me anything for Christmas or my birthday. I think it's pretty obvious.


If you don't ask, you don't really know, Anon. Transparency can work wonders in marriage.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



Vega said:


> AWESOME thread! :thumbup:
> 
> I read HNHN and Love Buster's waaaaay long ago, before I realized that my late husband was abusive. I thought both books had some good advice, but the advice wouldn't have been applicable to *my* situation.


 Yes, without both caring to Do their part... but this is why we "need" the other person - that "INTER"... or it quickly evolves into "sacrificial drudgery" on the "giving" spouse's part.... 



> If I suggested the Policy of Joint Agreement to my late husband, he would have LOVED it. And, he would have poo-pooed EVERY. SINGLE. SUGGESTION. I made. He would have done it because he was controlling. And 'needy'. And 'clingy'.


 Can you give some examples Vega..... I am just wondering if you 2 were just terribly mismatched , and it brought out* the worst* in him...the disconnect began.. and it was never recovered... or he was just a selfish man, a Dr Jekyll turned Mr Hyde after the vows? 



> *As it was, he turned every 'want' into a 'need' because he knew that 'needs' outweigh 'wants'. A 'want' is a luxury. A 'need' is a requirement, that is necessary in order to fulfill a 'want' (aka, a desire). *


 By chance was one of these - his feeling Sex a "NEED" where you felt it a "WANT" ....and he pushed, & pushed & pushed some more, in his frustration, to where he crossed the line into abusive behavior... often times younger men are very antsy for sex but are not "getting" how their wives & girlfriends need lots of affection & care leading up to this...was this part of it? 

Your thread *>* http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/339481-sex-bottom-line.html ...I get this impression, is all.. 



> Anywho, I was never a big fan of Harley. :surprise: I took his messages to encourage couples to be more dependent on each other; not interdependent.
> 
> And interdependence is key!


 But Vega... . how do you see this thread as awesome (just the discussion itself) where I see Harley's writings surely not in a negative but leading to a deeper intimacy, romance, Unity, and a shared marital happiness.. it's most beautiful form of "Interdependence"... 

I found this quote somewhere..."Of course independence, in the sense that couples maintain their individuality, is healthy in any marriage. But independence at the expense of interdependence will gradually erode a relationship." 

As much as I value togetherness with my man.. I would never argue this... 

You've given Scanner a # of likes on this thread.. you identify with his strong sense of independence - not really caring to have a partner or if you did.. you wouldn't mind very minimal time spent with them, even just weekends would do...am I reading you wrong?? 

Did you see this post of his early on...this was one of his examples growing up... he's good with it !... Marriage more of a "*Business arrangement*".... I wonder how many would be content with that ?? 



Scannerguard said:


> Now. . .I am NO expert by any means on this complicated topic of marriage but I looked at my grandparents. * I think their marriage was about well, more "business".* . .raising kids, division of domestic labor (cooking her, handy stuff him) provision for basic needs (2 incomes), SOME minor companionship (travel escort), someone to share in big decisions (weddings, funerals, illnesses), sex of course (as a grandchild pretty freaky to think about that but that's how I got here I guess, lol) . . .but. . .he went fishing and she played cards. She was involved in the UAW union and he liked to tile for his work and side jobs.
> 
> *They almost DIDN"T want to spend time with each other.
> 
> They had FRIENDS for that.
> 
> They have spouses for the other list I mentioned above.
> 
> Who knows. . maybe I integrated a wrong value from that, I'm not sure.*
> 
> I do feel we have placed this HUGE burden upon the institution of marriage that we (maybe esp. men) can't live up to. I mean, it's great, SO GREAT, what you and your husband have, but I am not even sure that should be the goal, the GOLD STANDARD, you know?
> 
> Do you think?


OK Scanner, getting back to your question.... if I think Harley's example (which really is ours as well) should be a "Gold standard", you feel our expectations are too high, unattainable for many.. 

Here is what I learned from this thread.. with your contributions & some others... Not everyone cares or wants a "Romantic marriage"... they would feel like this...









Just as some who never wanted kids would never understand why I wanted them SO BADLY... the extra work & sacrifice, I counted that ALL JOY ...I wanted them with everything in my soul.... I was miserable thinking I'd never realize my dream... 

I think we each have to know WHO WE ARE and what drives us.. is it a career, is it family, is it success, is it sexual variety/ adventure, is it to love & Be Loved , to share our life with another , making memories & growing old together....what fulfills...what is your brand of happiness? 

For those who have this ideal... to Love & be Loved, to be a helpmate so we can wade through the waters of life together... if one is a giver, who longs to devote his or her life to another, sharing is something they ENJOY (I do see these as the more unselfish by the way)... they would be utterly foolish to hook up with another who didn't feel as they...and this includes loving that intimacy in the bedroom! These things are "life giving" when you care about them...

I'm one of those, you'd never hear me say "I don't need a man".. sure I'm not going to die without one... but I wouldn't be AS HAPPY ....I'd long to find love again....and Sex.. Lordy be.. I need that!! ...but not just a random lay to satisfy the physical....

I also know what would leave me "hollow" inside... I care a great deal about "Intimacy", commitment, trust, a mutual affection and a shared vision.. 

It always comes down to this...find another compatible with our deepest wants & longings.

This is one of my favorite Christian songs.. it speaks of that awesome union between a man & his wife...I find it very beautiful... 

Matthew Ward: Perfect Union


----------



## Anon1111

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



jld said:


> That really would feel strange. I just can't see myself taking it personally, though. I would feel like he had a problem.
> 
> 
> 
> No, that would never go over. Would not even try.
> 
> And really, have no desire to.
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent, Anon.
> 
> 
> 
> If you don't ask, you don't really know, Anon. Transparency can work wonders in marriage.


OK, you see my point though. If you haven't been on the receiving end of this kind of rejection, it's kind of naïve to suggest that you shouldn't take it personally. I do my best, but there is a limit.

On the gift giving thing, it's kind of similar. I'm not going to try to convince her to give me gifts. If she doesn't want to do it on her own, then that's that. There's no point in discussing.

Taking a step back, the big picture is why would anybody think a relationship would persist when these basic relationship things are missing.

I'm not looking for a quid pro quo, or to negotiate some result. 

I just expect some minimal level of an actual relationship. 

I do what I can to facilitate that, but I can't make her participate and have no interest in trying to convince her to do so.


----------



## EllisRedding

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



Anon1111 said:


> OK, you see my point though. If you haven't been on the receiving end of this kind of rejection, it's kind of naïve to suggest that you shouldn't take it personally.


QFT


----------



## SimplyAmorous

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



Anon1111 said:


> *honestly, you should try getting rejected hundreds of times by your spouse and see if you don't feel a personal twinge.*
> 
> or try rejecting Dug the next 50 times he tries to initiate and see what happens.
> 
> *nice idea to not take it personally, but totally unrealistic.
> *


 I strongly agree with you ....how these comments would bother anyone in your shoes.... I haven't lived it ... but to me this is like someone who is fertile mertile telling me to "just relax honey" after trying to conceive for 7 years straight.. these type of "easy" comments just speak how clueless someone is to your pain, your unsatisfied longing...the emptiness.. while it was all sunshine & roses for them in THAT area. 

Basically.. it's insensitive....as if you should have no feelings or care that she doesn't give a dam*... @jld .... love you ...but you drive me crazy on this :crazy:.. you expect men to have no feelings.. be a stone.. 

Not all men are like DUG.. who wouldn't care.. but then again... you have NEVER denied the man !! .... Anon does NOT have the luxury of a wife like you - to WANTS TO PLEASE, who would never think of denying him pleasure ....this is foreign to you both...



> I no longer get angry about it. I don't allow it to affect my behavior very much at all. at the end of the day, I don't want her to do anything she doesn't want to do. and the things I do for her are not conditioned on her delivering something to me.


 my husband would feel the same.. the reason I am convinced you are a GOOD MAN -even if I haven't heard your wife's side -which jld asked me about.. is from what I read in your posts.. what I pick up on....YOU SOUND like my husband.. he also wouldn't want me to do anything I didn't want to do.. that would be "hollow" for him.. he needs My WANT.. my Desire.... 

And he was never one to do something to "get something" either.. there was a time he wanted more ...and I was off in la la land...his feeling of it being mutual meant SO MUCH TO HIM.. that he put himself down and waited for that.. not that he had to wait long.. I always had a sex drive & initiated... but yeah.. I was kinda oblivious...

As I learned years later.. I am just like my husband.. I NEED his desire too.. or it all goes to crap.. I would spit on pity sex [email protected]#



> I did not ask her why she did not get me anything for father's day. I also did not ask her why she didn't get me anything for Christmas or my birthday. I think it's pretty obvious.


 Anon.. what do you do to counteract the lovelessness in your marriage? Have you picked up new hobbies.. I would worry some temptations could come along.. living with this sort of void... I can easily see why affairs happen when one is dealing with this sort of rejection at home.. sorry to say..


----------



## jld

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



SimplyAmorous said:


> I strongly agree with you ....how these comments would bother anyone in your shoes.... I haven't lived it ... but to me this is like someone who is fertile mertile telling me to "just relax honey" after trying to conceive for 7 years straight.. these type of "easy" comments just speak how clueless someone is to your pain, your unsatisfied longing...the emptiness.. while it was all sunshine & roses for them in THAT area.
> 
> Basically.. it's insensitive....as if you should have no feelings or care that she doesn't give a dam*... @jld .... love you ...but you drive me crazy on this :crazy:.. you expect men to have no feelings.. be a stone..
> 
> Not all men are like DUG.. who wouldn't care.. but then again... you have NEVER denied the man !! .... Anon does NOT have the luxury of a wife like you - to WANTS TO PLEASE, who would never think of denying him pleasure ....this is foreign to you both...
> 
> my husband would feel the same.. the reason I am convinced you are a GOOD MAN -even if I haven't heard your wife's side -which jld asked me about.. is from what I read in your posts.. what I pick up on....YOU SOUND like my husband.. he also wouldn't want me to do anything I didn't want to do.. that would be "hollow" for him.. he needs My WANT.. my Desire....
> 
> And he was never one to do something to "get something" either.. there was a time he wanted more ...and I was off in la la land...his feeling of it being mutual meant SO MUCH TO HIM.. that he put himself down and waited for that.. not that he had to wait long.. I always had a sex drive & initiated... but yeah.. I was kinda oblivious...
> 
> As I learned years later.. I am just like my husband.. I NEED his desire too.. or it all goes to crap.. I would spit on pity sex [email protected]#
> 
> Anon.. what do you do to counteract the lovelessness in your marriage? Have you picked up new hobbies.. I would worry some temptations could come along.. living with this sort of void... I can easily see why affairs happen when one is dealing with this sort of rejection at home.. sorry to say..


SA, did you read Anon's thread in SIM last year, before he deleted it? It really is helpful to get a sense of both sides. It would be even more helpful if he would bring his wife here.

You are right that I am baffled by sexless marriage. Absolutely baffled.

But I don't think telling these guys it is all on their wives to make things better is helpful to them. Honestly, I think it is depriving them of hope! Why would we want to do that to them?


----------



## jld

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



Anon1111 said:


> OK, you see my point though. If you haven't been on the receiving end of this kind of rejection, it's kind of naïve to suggest that you shouldn't take it personally. I do my best, but there is a limit.
> 
> On the gift giving thing, it's kind of similar. I'm not going to try to convince her to give me gifts. If she doesn't want to do it on her own, then that's that. There's no point in discussing.


There is absolutely a point to discussing. Put your feelings out there. Let her know how you are interpreting her actions. 

But more importantly, seek to understand her view of all this. That is what could really help you.

Open communication is essential in marriage, Anon. I cannot stress that enough.



> Taking a step back, the big picture is why would anybody think a relationship would persist when these basic relationship things are missing.
> 
> I'm not looking for a quid pro quo, or to negotiate some result.
> 
> I just expect some minimal level of an actual relationship.
> 
> I do what I can to facilitate that, but I can't make her participate and have no interest in trying to convince her to do so.


You are looking at this from your side. Share that side with her. But be open to her side of things, too.


----------



## Anon1111

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



SimplyAmorous said:


> Anon.. what do you do to counteract the lovelessness in your marriage? Have you picked up new hobbies.. I would worry some temptations could come along.. living with this sort of void... I can easily see why affairs happen when one is dealing with this sort of rejection at home.. sorry to say..


thanks for your kind post.

For myself, I surf, I meditate, I do yoga, play a little guitar and lift weights.

Meditation has become pretty central for me and has massive spillover to these other activities and ordinary daily life things too.

"The more you search, the farther away you get, the harder you hunt the wider astray you go. This is what I call the secret of the matter."

-Lin-chi


----------



## Anon1111

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



jld said:


> There is absolutely a point to discussing. Put your feelings out there. Let her know how you are interpreting her actions.
> 
> But more importantly, seek to understand her view of all this. That is what could really help you.
> 
> Open communication is essential in marriage, Anon. I cannot stress that enough.
> 
> 
> 
> You are looking at this from your side. Share that side with her. But be open to her side of things, too.



thanks-- this is a helpful reminder.

I'm done complaining about my situation for now. Just had a bad day the other day but I'm over it.

Everything will be OK one way or another.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



jld said:


> SA, did you read Anon's thread in SIM last year, before he deleted it? It really is helpful to get a sense of both sides. It would be even more helpful if he would bring his wife here.


 I never seen it.. what is the problem.. has he been completely silent on this to her...is she oblivious somehow??

And if so... what the hell is wrong with her.. doesn't she know she ought to please her husband once in a while , that rejection hurts ??

How is he so "the bad guy" here ...if he tried to talk to her and she rejected him again, then again.. then again.. then again..... and he's over here trying on his part, sacrificing himself for his kids..

Hell he's doing quite a bit I'd say.... remaining faithful for their welfare... What is he NOT DOING that she needs @jld.. or can I ask you outright @Anon1111 ...what are your flaws, where have you missed it with your wife ?? is she resentful towards you.. and why?? 

Lay it out there for me.. Unless he gained 100 lbs , isn't taking a shower, treats her like a piece of dirt (abusive), or if he's totally lacking affection... I can see why a woman would be turned off in a # of scenarios that can't all be covered here...there are some legitimate reasons to turn a man away.. 


So what are they?? She doesn't seem to want any part of him...does she want someone else.. is she NUMB.. is she on Meds that killed her sex drive & emotions.. if so. this is very common & it is also very hurtful to marriages...



> You are right that I am baffled by sexless marriage. Absolutely baffled.
> 
> But I don't think telling these guys it is all on their wives to make things better is helpful to them. Honestly, I think it is depriving them of hope! Why would we want to do that to them?


 Doesn't sound to me he has any hope.. but to see if a flame is put under her a$$ when he walks out the door....

Sexless marriages don't baffle me...I just think those who are rejecters deserve to be divorced .. if they don't need sex.. let them be single.... I have no sympathy for them - IF they are married to caring loving giving spouses..the right thing to do -would be to let them go.. otherwise I see them as Vow breakers and selfish..


----------



## jld

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



Anon1111 said:


> thanks-- this is a helpful reminder.
> 
> I'm done complaining about my situation for now. Just had a bad day the other day but I'm over it.
> 
> Everything will be OK one way or another.


Good.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



jld said:


> SA, did you read Anon's thread in SIM last year, before he deleted it? It really is helpful to get a sense of both sides. It would be even more helpful if he would bring his wife here.
> 
> You are right that I am baffled by sexless marriage. Absolutely baffled.
> 
> But I don't think telling these guys it is all on their wives to make things better is helpful to them. Honestly, I think it is depriving them of hope! Why would we want to do that to them?


Hope is important, yes.

But hope built on a lie is setting yourself up for the fall.


----------



## jld

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

@Anon1111

Just reflecting here. I said on another thread that Dug has rejected me twice in our 23+ years together. It was surprising, and I did feel shaken up by it. I really couldn't believe it, as a matter of fact. But he explained that as it was very late at night, and he had early morning meetings.

I do think there is a difference between that rare rejection and regular rejection. If he were to continue to reject me, with no reasonable explanation, I would find that extremely strange. 

I can't see myself letting it go. I would be hounding him about why. I don't think it is normal for men to not want sex. And it certainly is not normal for Dug.

Anyway, just wanted to bring this up because I said earlier that I would see his rejection as his problem, not mine. I do think it would eventually come to that, but probably not right away.


----------



## jld

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



SimplyAmorous said:


> I never seen it.. what is the problem.. has he been completely silent on this to her...is she oblivious somehow??
> 
> And if so... what the hell is wrong with her.. doesn't she know she ought to please her husband once in a while , that rejection hurts ??
> 
> How is he so "the bad guy" here ...if he tried to talk to her and she rejected him again, then again.. then again.. then again..... and he's over here trying on his part, sacrificing himself for his kids..
> 
> Hell he's doing quite a bit I'd say.... remaining faithful for their welfare... What is he NOT DOING that she needs @jld.. or can I ask you outright @Anon1111 ...what are your flaws, where have you missed it with your wife ?? is she resentful towards you.. and why??
> 
> Lay it out there for me.. Unless he gained 100 lbs , isn't taking a shower, treats her like a piece of dirt (abusive), or if he's totally lacking affection... I can see why a woman would be turned off in a # of scenarios that can't all be covered here...there are some legitimate reasons to turn a man away..
> 
> 
> So what are they?? She doesn't seem to want any part of him...does she want someone else.. is she NUMB.. is she on Meds that killed her sex drive & emotions.. if so. this is very common & it is also very hurtful to marriages...
> 
> Doesn't sound to me he has any hope.. but to see if a flame is put under her a$$ when he walks out the door....
> 
> Sexless marriages don't baffle me...I just think those who are rejecters deserve to be divorced .. if they don't need sex.. let them be single.... I have no sympathy for them - IF they are married to caring loving giving spouses..the right thing to do -would be to let them go.. otherwise I see them as Vow breakers and selfish..


I think it would be best to let Anon address this, SA, as he chooses.

Thanks for the discussion, btw. It is always good to be able to discuss openly and honestly.


----------



## jld

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



farsidejunky said:


> Hope is important, yes.
> 
> But hope built on a lie is setting yourself up for the fall.


And that is where being realistic, and as honest as possible, is really helpful.


----------



## Anon1111

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



SimplyAmorous said:


> Lay it out there for me.. Unless he gained 100 lbs , isn't taking a shower, treats her like a piece of dirt (abusive), or if he's totally lacking affection... I can see why a woman would be turned off in a # of scenarios that can't all be covered here...there are some legitimate reasons to turn a man away..
> 
> ....
> 
> Sexless marriages don't baffle me...I just think those who are rejecters deserve to be divorced .. if they don't need sex.. let them be single.... I have no sympathy for them - IF they are married to caring loving giving spouses..the right thing to do -would be to let them go.. otherwise I see them as Vow breakers and selfish..


just so there's no doubt, I'm not fat :smile2:. I'm 6'0 / 165 lbs. I've dropped down from 180 in the past 6 months or so-- intentionally because lighter weight is better for surfing. when I was 180 I had more muscle mass and was lifting more. Now I'm doing more yoga. Can you tell I'm a little obsessed with fitness? :smile2:

Bad stuff:

I was probably a workaholic for many years. I worked like 80-100 hrs per week up until 2.5 yrs ago. 

I told myself it was all good because I hired a live in nanny to help my wife out. Our marriage became pretty bad during this period. We had a lot of arguments.

Now I work pretty normal hrs but I make significantly less money. We downsized our house and have a more modest lifestyle. No more nanny, although we do have substantial babysitters who come by to help her out during the day.

I'm a much more involved father. I'm home every night to help with the kids and on weekends.

Other bad stuff:

I would lose my temper or become remote and pathetic after getting rejected in the past. This situation has been going on for over 6 yrs now so there have been some changes along the way. 

I would say I really only got a better handle on taking rejection in the last 2 yrs. Really stepped it up in the last year so that now there is rarely a visible reaction on my part.

But there is a history of my wife rejecting me, then me having an argument with her or avoiding her and walling myself off.

At times I think our issues are the result of resentment.

On the other hand, I think I've objectively done a lot to address all of these issues and there has been no change in the relationship, so that makes me think it's not just resentment.


----------



## EllisRedding

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



Anon1111 said:


> On the other hand, I think I've objectively done a lot to address all of these issues and there has been no change in the relationship, so that makes me think it's not just resentment.


It almost sounds like she is enjoying the benefits of the improvements you have made without her having to actually do anything b/c as you mentioned, D is off the table?


----------



## jld

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

She is the one who wanted the marriage, right? She has always pretty much been the relationship leader?

And then when you had two autistic kids, in diapers until they were each 6, she just focused totally on them? She did tons of research, just poured her heart and soul into the best possible outcome for each child?

And you felt you had lost your prominence in her heart? The kids took all her emotional energy? And you felt resentful?


----------



## Anon1111

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



SimplyAmorous said:


> Sexless marriages don't baffle me...I just think those who are rejecters deserve to be divorced .. if they don't need sex.. let them be single.... I have no sympathy for them - IF they are married to caring loving giving spouses..the right thing to do -would be to let them go.. otherwise I see them as Vow breakers and selfish..


I meant to add that I don't think my wife is selfish.

She has a hard life with kids who place extreme emotional demands on her.

I also believe in her mind she thinks I'm not great and, even though I don't think this is accurate , I realize to her this probably seems real.

All of this is to say I don't really blame her for the way things are between us.

Not blaming her is not the same thing as saying I can be cool with it forever though.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

Anon, I think your wife will be stunned if/when you file.

I think that no matter what is said or done in the lead up, she believes you are never really going anywhere.


----------



## Anon1111

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



EllisRedding said:


> It almost sounds like she is enjoying the benefits of the improvements you have made without her having to actually do anything b/c as you mentioned, D is off the table?


yeah, I can't D now.

it would be massively disruptive to my kids. 

I'd be particularly concerned about my older son who has made significant progress in the last 2 yrs (now toileting independently, has made his first friend at his special needs school, potentially on the path to living independently one day...)

I don't want to blow this progress up with a major disruption to our home life


----------



## Anon1111

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



jld said:


> She is the one who wanted the marriage, right? She has always pretty much been the relationship leader?
> 
> And then when you had two autistic kids, in diapers until they were each 6, she just focused totally on them? She did tons of research, just poured her heart and soul into the best possible outcome for each child?
> 
> And you felt you had lost your prominence in her heart? The kids took all her emotional energy? And you felt resentful?


this is a fair summary


----------



## SimplyAmorous

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



Anon1111 said:


> I meant to add that I don't think my wife is selfish.
> 
> She has a hard life with kids who place extreme emotional demands on her.
> 
> I also believe in her mind she thinks I'm not great and, even though I don't think this is accurate , I realize to her this probably seems real.
> 
> All of this is to say I don't really blame her for the way things are between us.
> 
> Not blaming her is not the same thing as saying I can be cool with it forever though.


Well here is just another reason I think YOU are a GREAT GUY.. very giving.. very understanding.. very sacrificial.. you don't even Blame her.. you let her off the hook.. you basically love unconditionally.. 

Why can't you & she get away and have some time alone a few hours a week.. do you not have anyone to watch the kids.. you need some TIME ALONE.. would she rebuff this ??


----------



## Anon1111

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



SimplyAmorous said:


> Why can't you & she get away and have some time alone a few hours a week.. do you not have anyone to watch the kids.. you need some TIME ALONE.. would she rebuff this ??


good idea! 

I actually just this week said, "why don't we go to X for the weekend sometime this fall?" Shot down! Response: "I don't think that will work." Me (smiling): "OK!"

She wouldn't trust our kids to be left alone without either one of us for a weekend. I don't really think this is reasonable (my parents could do it, or her parents or her sister could), but I'm sure this is how she feels.

I'm also certain that she just wouldn't want to spend a weekend in a nice hotel on the beach with me.

I've also been recently shot down about even just going out to dinner on a Saturday with the same line ("that wouldn't work").

So that's where we're at.


----------



## jld

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



Anon1111 said:


> good idea!
> 
> I actually just this week said, "why don't we go to X for the weekend sometime this fall?" Shot down! Response: "I don't think that will work." Me (smiling): "OK!"
> 
> She wouldn't trust our kids to be left alone without either one of us for a weekend. I don't really think this is reasonable (my parents could do it, or her parents or her sister could), but I'm sure this is how she feels.
> 
> I'm also certain that she just wouldn't want to spend a weekend in a nice hotel on the beach with me.
> 
> I've also been recently shot down about even just going out to dinner on a Saturday with the same line ("that wouldn't work").
> 
> So that's where we're at.


How about responding with, "Please help me understand." "Ok" is actually untruthful, since it really is not okay with you.


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## Anon1111

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



jld said:


> How about responding with, "Please help me understand." "Ok" is actually untruthful, since it really is not okay with you.


no, you're wrong. it actually is OK.

I would only want her to do it if she actually wants to do it.

If I have to negotiate it with her (i.e., "help me understand"), then that's not OK with me.

I'm OK with "yes" and I'm OK with "no."


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## jld

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



Anon1111 said:


> no, you're wrong. it actually is OK.
> 
> I would only want her to do it if she actually wants to do it.
> 
> If I have to negotiate it with her (i.e., "help me understand"), then that's not OK with me.
> 
> I'm OK with "yes" and I'm OK with "no."


Seeking to understand is not negotiating. It is part of building the relationship.

And I doubt it is okay. It sounds like it is part of the resentment you feel.

Anon, have you considered going to IC? Have you done that, ever?


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## Anon1111

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



jld said:


> Seeking to understand is not negotiating. It is part of building the relationship.
> 
> And I doubt it is okay. It sounds like it is part of the resentment you feel.
> 
> Anon, have you considered going to IC? Have you done that, ever?


I did IC for a year over this stuff. I'm fine with it. Would I prefer that we had a great marriage? Sure, that would be better for everyone (particularly our kids). But we don't. 

It's a fait accompli. It is what it is. 

There is no point in putting pressure on her to explain it. She is not going to give me the real answer anyway and she will just be annoyed that I'm asking. Believe me, I have been down this road many, many times before.


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## NotEasy

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



Anon1111 said:


> good idea!
> 
> I actually just this week said, "why don't we go to X for the weekend sometime this fall?" Shot down! Response: "I don't think that will work." Me (smiling): "OK!"
> 
> She wouldn't trust our kids to be left alone without either one of us for a weekend. I don't really think this is reasonable (my parents could do it, or her parents or her sister could), but I'm sure this is how she feels.
> 
> I'm also certain that she just wouldn't want to spend a weekend in a nice hotel on the beach with me.
> 
> I've also been recently shot down about even just going out to dinner on a Saturday with the same line ("that wouldn't work").
> 
> So that's where we're at.


Do the kids go to school? Perhaps you could 'date' by going out for lunch or coffee while they are at school. It sounds pathetic as a date, but it is a small step.


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## karole

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

Perhaps if you told her you wanted intimacy with her to benefit your kids, that would get her attention. Your kids deserve to have a mom and a dad that love each other, look out for one another and spend time together. The better the marriage, the better off your kids will be. They will reap what you two sow.


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## jld

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



karole said:


> *Perhaps if you told her you wanted intimacy with her to benefit your kids, that would get her attention.* Your kids deserve to have a mom and a dad that love each other, look out for one another and spend time together. The better the marriage, the better off your kids will be. They will reap what you two sow.


That's a good angle, karole.


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## Yorkie_Lover

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

Hi SA,

I'm a disciple of Harleys HNHN's. On the topic of IB, I used to drive my ex-wife nuts when I'd go hiking or bicycling with my fitness buddies. She used to say "Your doing that independant behavior thing, always off on your own!"

And I would retort, "Well, it wouldn't be independant behavior, if you came along with me, would it?"

As much as I believe in much of Harley's HNHN, I don't buy his last chapter solution of finding activities that both spouses find mutually satisfying and letting go of the ones that are done independently. 

I found a book by Samuel Hamburg, "Will Our Love Last?" which attempts to answer the viability of a marriage for a couple from a compatibility model. Hamburg describes three dimensions of compatibility: Practical, Sexual and Wavelength. 

Here are his explanations of the three dimensions are below:

The Practical Dimension: This dimension is called “practical” because it refers to how you manage all the practical decisions of daily life: when to wake up in the morning, what to have for breakfast, how to get the dishes done, and the house cleaned, how much money to spend for on a car, where to spend your vacation, and how often to visit your parents. Some of these are big things, like buying a car, for example, or dealing with your parents. Some may seem like little things-breakfast, or getting the dishes done-but life is made up of little things. Every day a couple has to make scores of decisions on little, practical issues like these; every year they make thousands. And because the partners have to come to some kind of agreement on each one of these decisions, those “little things” are not truly little. They’re all pretty big.

The Sexual Dimension: When you and your partner are similar to each other on the Sexual Dimension:
•	You are as sexually attracted to your partner as your partner is to you.
•	You are as interested in sex, and preoccupied with it as your partner is
•	You are comfortable with sexuality, and as knowledgeable about it as your partner is.
•	You want to have sex about as frequently as your partner does.
•	Your favorite ways of having sex are similar to your partner’s. In particular, there are no sexual activities that you love to do but that your partner hates to do, or vice versa.

The Wavelength Dimension: The best way to understand what I (Hamburg) mean by the Wavelength Dimension is to ask yourself this question: If my partner were of the same sex as I am, would that person be one of my very best friends? 
So who are our very best friends? They are the people who get it. When we talk to them, we don’t have to explain ourselves-they instantly understand. And not only do they understand what we are saying, they affirm it. That is, they approve of what we said, and they approve of us having said it. Likewise, when they talk to us, they don’t have to explain themselves to us because we get it. And we not only understand them, we affirm them. When we are with them or even just talking to them on the phone, we have a sense of emotional, intellectual, and spiritual communion; a sense of being “in tune” somehow; of being “on the same wavelength.” 
To be on the same wavelength is to share the same outlook on life, to see it with the same eyes. When we are on the same wavelength with someone, we have the same attitudes about the big questions in life: About what is important and not important, about what constitutes “the good life,” and about what makes life worth living. We agree on what kind of world we see around us and how we would like that world to be different. We share the same spiritual understandings: about how-or even whether- this world and our individual life in it makes sense; about God’s part in our destiny and that of other people; about why there is suffering and evil in the world; about our ability to control our own destiny; and about what love is and the part love plays in our life.


Without writing a diatribe on the topic, I will just say that my ex-wife and I were far from compatible in so many ways. I am a fitness buff and trim. I'm retired now but rode long-distance bicycle and hiked long, steep mountain trails to stay in shape and burn stress from my work and from my marriage. My ex and I weren't on the same "wavelength" as Hamburg describes. 

I'm divorced now from her and have been fortunate to have met the perfect partner for myself. When the weekend comes, there is no question as to what we will be doing. It will be something physically active together: Hiking, skiing, snowshoeing, biking. For she is like me, and needs to be physically active. She also appreciates the esthetic beauty innate in the mountains.

You will recall that another of Harley's HNHN emotional needs was defined as "Recreational Companionship". I didn't have that with my ex, but I have it in spades with my fiancee. 

I've lurked on TAM for several years but never posted until I read this thread posted by you.

I see so much of the unhappiness described on TAM as being rooted in incompatibility between the partners. And while it is useful to know what the emotional needs of a man and a woman are and how to meet them, that can be impossible when partners are contemptuous of each other, because they are too different to get along. 

I was a HD husband and my ex was LD. Medical/mental (depression) causes aside, I have concluded what so many of the TAM posters have; that reconciling the difference in appetite between HD and LD persons is nearly impossible. 

Because if they aren't truly compatible in the sexual dimension, the LD person will frustrate the HD partner to the point of contempt. And then John Gottman's 4 horsemen of the apocalypse come riding along: Criticism, defensiveness, contempt and stonewalling. And those riders are really tough to slow down and stop, once they are galloping along in a relationship. 

I could go on for hours, but don't wish to make this my career in retirement.

Harley's HNHN's really explained to me what emotional needs men and women usually have. I liked his Love Bank model of Romanticl Love. I completely agree with his "Lovebusters" list of withdrawals. 

But if the couple doesn't have basic compatibility across the three dimensions described by Hamburg, they will be in for a rough ride, usually terminating in divorce. Of course compatibility in those three dimensions are on continuum s, how much of each is necessary for a given couple's happiness depends upon the persons in the relationship.

Have always enjoyed your thoughtful posts.

Regards,

Yorkie Lover.


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## optimalprimus

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

I like this thread. I think I am naturally quite an independent person, in that i like to pursue pursuits outside of my relationship (sports, computing, reading, male socialising).

I've tried to temper these instincts over the course of my marriage, focusing more of my attention on my wife and family. We've shared more hobbies, and are having to work a lot harder togethet with a small child to care for.

I have some older friends who live very independently from their wives. They don't sound like they are happy in their marriages especially once the kids are gone. In another universe, I can imagine ending up like them but I'm hopeful that we're on the right tracks.

Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk


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## SimplyAmorous

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*



Yorkie_Lover said:


> *I found a book by Samuel Hamburg, "Will Our Love Last?" which attempts to answer the viability of a marriage for a couple from a compatibility model. Hamburg describes three dimensions of compatibility: Practical, Sexual and Wavelength. *


 1st .. thank you @Yorkie_Lover for taking the time to post ... and for mentioning this book.. I also feel compatibility is HUGE.. it's what allows for a smoother ride -for sure.....

I said it like this on my compatibility thread ..."Ultimately we are ALL selfish and simply want what we want, this is nothing new under the sun. Being aware of this fact of life & making absolute sure we are compatible before we marry can avoid many many pitfalls after the vows.... "

I looked the book up >  Will Our Love Last?: A Couple's Road Map (I think I will add this to my collection).. sounds very good! 

I've used these 2 links to touch on just how important Compatibility is... all younger people considering marriage should evaluate each very carefully.. 

Love is Not Enough ...... Love That Lasts- 11 Questions to Ask Before Marriage



> *Here are his explanations of the three dimensions are below:
> *
> *The Practical Dimension:* This dimension is called “practical” because it refers to how you manage all the practical decisions of daily life: when to wake up in the morning, what to have for breakfast, how to get the dishes done, and the house cleaned, how much money to spend for on a car, where to spend your vacation, and how often to visit your parents. Some of these are big things, like buying a car, for example, or dealing with your parents. Some may seem like little things-breakfast, or getting the dishes done-but life is made up of little things. Every day a couple has to make scores of decisions on little, practical issues like these; every year they make thousands. And because the partners have to come to some kind of agreement on each one of these decisions, those “little things” are not truly little. They’re all pretty big.
> 
> *The Sexual Dimension:* When you and your partner are similar to each other on the Sexual Dimension:
> 
> •	You are as sexually attracted to your partner as your partner is to you.
> •	You are as interested in sex, and preoccupied with it as your partner is
> •	You are comfortable with sexuality, and as knowledgeable about it as your partner is.
> •	You want to have sex about as frequently as your partner does.
> •	Your favorite ways of having sex are similar to your partner’s. In particular, there are no sexual activities that you love to do but that your partner hates to do, or vice versa.
> 
> *The Wavelength Dimension: * The best way to understand what I (Hamburg) mean by the Wavelength Dimension is to ask yourself this question: If my partner were of the same sex as I am, would that person be one of my very best friends?
> 
> So who are our very best friends? They are the people who get it. When we talk to them, we don’t have to explain ourselves-they instantly understand. And not only do they understand what we are saying, they affirm it. That is, they approve of what we said, and they approve of us having said it. Likewise, when they talk to us, they don’t have to explain themselves to us because we get it. And we not only understand them, we affirm them. When we are with them or even just talking to them on the phone, we have a sense of emotional, intellectual, and spiritual communion; a sense of being “in tune” somehow; of being “on the same wavelength.”
> 
> To be on the same wavelength is to share the same outlook on life, to see it with the same eyes. When we are on the same wavelength with someone, we have the same attitudes about the big questions in life: About what is important and not important, about what constitutes “the good life,” and about what makes life worth living. We agree on what kind of world we see around us and how we would like that world to be different. We share the same spiritual understandings: about how-or even whether- this world and our individual life in it makes sense; about God’s part in our destiny and that of other people; about why there is suffering and evil in the world; about our ability to control our own destiny; and about what love is and the part love plays in our life.


 On the importance of being "best friends".... even before I met my husband.. this is how I envisioned it TO BE.... Reading on this forum though, various views.. not everyone feels this is so important.. some even feel it will hamper one's sex life... I don't feel passion & excitement need to take a dive with this.. just to keep things spicy, trying new places, positions, always something to add to the sex life with some creativity... some new novelty..... 

Anticipating our Wedding day.. when looking through invitations 27 yrs ago now..really not much captured it for me.. till I came to this one.. 






> Without writing a diatribe on the topic, I will just say that my ex-wife and I were far from compatible in so many ways. I am a fitness buff and trim. I'm retired now but rode long-distance bicycle and hiked long, steep mountain trails to stay in shape and burn stress from my work and from my marriage. My ex and I weren't on the same "wavelength" as Hamburg describes.
> 
> I'm divorced now from her and have been fortunate to have met the perfect partner for myself. When the weekend comes, there is no question as to what we will be doing. It will be something physically active together: Hiking, skiing, snowshoeing, biking. For she is like me, and needs to be physically active. She also appreciates the esthetic beauty innate in the mountains.
> 
> You will recall that another of Harley's HNHN emotional needs was defined as "*Recreational Companionship*". I didn't have that with my ex, but I have it in spades with my fiancee.


 Yes... very good examples.. Similar to your experience...my father & mother was a terrible match, they married too young, she says she was naive, he was HD.. she didn't want it...she wasn't happy in the country.. she wanted different things..I remember the fights.... then he married my step Mom.. WOW.. what a difference !... I look at them.. amazing compatibility...(even though I hated her at one time)...I cant deny they had a very fulfilling marriage.... their recreational activities has changed some over the years.. but now it's going camping, taking a Pontoon out on the lake.. hanging out with a group of friends they've met over the years on weekends, camping buddies...that's their scene.. they are happy, enjoying life.. .. 

I have always felt "at home" with my husband, there was never a "push/ pull" sort of thing going on...we just meshed , it seemed to come so naturally...I think we're a low keyed couple.. so much about family, enjoying the "simpler things" ... taking country walks.. we love cuddling watching movies together...doing for our kids, to enhance their lives... although our personalities are opposite.. what we enjoy, hoped for, what brings us happiness.... he "gets me" like no other...it's very comforting... I count this compatibility thing the #1 reason we get along so well...with someone else.. we may be a horrendous match !! Throw that fish back [email protected]# 

I've always loved this saying...there is so much variety in our world.. I do find it fascinating... the various dynamics of couples.. this applies to us all... 












> *I've lurked on TAM for several years but never posted until I read this thread posted by you.*


 I feel honored this brought you out of the woodwork ...I hope you will post again ! 



> I see so much of the unhappiness described on TAM as being rooted in incompatibility between the partners. And while it is useful to know what the emotional needs of a man and a woman are and how to meet them, that can be impossible when partners are contemptuous of each other, because they are too different to get along.
> 
> I was a HD husband and my ex was LD. Medical/mental (depression) causes aside, I have concluded what so many of the TAM posters have; that reconciling the difference in appetite between HD and LD persons is nearly impossible.
> 
> Because if they aren't truly compatible in the sexual dimension, the LD person will frustrate the HD partner to the point of contempt. *And then John Gottman's 4 horsemen of the apocalypse come riding along: Criticism, defensiveness, contempt and stonewalling. * And those riders are really tough to slow down and stop, once they are galloping along in a relationship.
> 
> I could go on for hours, but don't wish to make this my career in retirement.


 Honesty speaking here.. I can only resonate with High Drive spouses.. I can listen to the other side.. but I don't have much of any sympathy.. I can't help it... not just sex but affection too.. I am someone who craves it.. but I also long to GIVE IT... the physical is something I also *need*.. I would grow a mountain of resentment if this was missing, or scarce to come by.. I wouldn't be able to handle it.. I'd come unglued.. It would come out my mouth.. so yeah.. I understand where you are coming from here.. My husband is high in "Physical touch"..... so he's easy to live with... it's never too much.. I love it...Like me, he feels very loved when I reach for him as well.. Here are those 4 Horsemen laid out :



> The Four Horsemen: Recognizing Criticism, Contempt, Defensiveness, and Stonewalling
> 
> *** *Criticism*- the act of passing judgment as to the merits of another / faultfinding. "Criticism is “really a way of fueling the attack, so you state your complaint as an attack on the other person.” ... “It’s not constructive, it winds up leading to an escalation of the conflict" ......No Criticism Please!
> 
> *** *Contempt*... When we communicate in this state, we are truly meaning - treating others with disrespect, mocking them with sarcasm, ridicule, name-calling, mimicking, and/or body language such as eye-rolling. The target of contempt is made to feel despised and worthless.....The Danger of Contempt
> 
> *** *Defensiveness*- conveys the message, “*The problem is not me. It’s you.*” From this position you imply that, because your partner threw the first stone, they are responsible for the entire conflict. You avoid taking responsibility for your own behavior by pointing to something they did prior to their complaint about you. You do not acknowledge that which is true in what they are saying about your behavior.
> 
> Defensiveness: The Poison Pill to Relationships
> 
> *** *Stonewalling* -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> also known as "the Silent treatment". .. stonewalling is the absolute refusal to consider your partner’s perspective. If you listen at all, you do it dismissively or contemptuously.This is the passive-aggressive stance many people take during a fight. It's the "Nothing's wrong, I'm fine!" said even when there is clearly something wrong.
> 
> Other common songs of the stonewaller are:“Just leave me alone…”...“Do whatever you want"....“End of conversation"..."that's enough"....
> 
> Stonewalling: How to recognize and fix ......... How to Ruin a Perfectly Good Relationship - Stonewall





> *Harley's HNHN's really explained to me what emotional needs men and women usually have. I liked his Love Bank model of Romantic Love. I completely agree with his "Lovebusters" list of withdrawals.
> 
> But if the couple doesn't have basic compatibility across the three dimensions described by Hamburg, they will be in for a rough ride, usually terminating in divorce. Of course compatibility in those three dimensions are on continuum s, how much of each is necessary for a given couple's happiness depends upon the persons in the relationship.*


 You are definitely a "well read" husband ....Good stuff !.. I, too, really appreciate & resonate with Harley's writings ... Another link for reference > The Love Bank ......... 
Again


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## emuna

*Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.*

This includes meeting up with members of the opposite sex, regardless of how well the wife knows the other woman. Meeting up at 8pm for pizza and the wife is home alone with the kids, and hasn't told her these plans. This would be outside the normal boundaries of work, of course.


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