# What is the best way to deal with a wife who gets aggressive during PMS?



## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

I have posted on this before, but it happened yet again and every month. I have an app that tells me when her date is coming. 
Her parents are visiting, so I suggested we go out to dinner, all of us. When we got to the restaurant and got seated, she suddenly decides to "take charge" and calls the waitress and says we are ready to order. Then the waitress goes to her and she begins to pick out the dishes (family style). Traditionally, I am the one who handles does this and this is common in Indian families. If she wanted to take charge, then why not go all the way and drive us there and pay the bill also? (we don't have separate accounts, so it wouldn't really matter). The owner knows me, so he came to talk to us and asked if he should get the bill.

Now this may not seem like a big deal but its part of a larger trend of hers to behave in a way that her husband is not good enough and how she is hot property and sometimes how even her friend's husbands are so awesome. She blindly believes what her friends tell her and some of her friends show off about their husbands (common in Indian families). When I bring it up, she absolves herself saying she was naive or was young or was immature. She never gives me the benefit of doubt or let me use those excuses.

I was pissed off and her parents were talking about people I didn't know or care about so I kept myself busy talking to the kids. She kicked me a few times under the table also. Then when we got back home, she came in to pick a fight with me at night. I told her that I didn't feel part of those topics her parents talked about so I talked to the kids. She thought I was angry that she ordered too much (she thinks I am stingy while I consider myself financially savvy which is why we are financially secure despite being single income for so long, and no loans except house paid off 55%). I did not bring up that I was offended by her action to take over the ordering unilaterally. I feel silly saying that and by itself it may not mean much but I feel that she disrespects me a lot even though I put in a lot to get her started in her career and pay for her Masters degree when I wasn't making much. I had confidence in her when even her parents did not.

So she was trying hard to provoke and then even bit my hand and punched me in the back 3 times. I told her to back off because even the slightest thing I do causes her injury and she blames me for it and turns that into "you hit me the other day" forgetting that I was either defending myself or taking evasive action.

Then today she didn't talk to me in the morning and went to work.

This pattern repeats every time she is in PMS. She is due for her periods tomorrow. So my question is what is the best way to handle it? Should I ignore her provocations? Should I have ignored her act to order for the family which I think had some hidden message? Yes, I know there are some other deeper issues that she is unhappy about and so am I. 

My question is tactical - how do I respond to her aggressive behavior during her periods or just prior?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

nirvana said:


> So she was trying hard to provoke and then even bit my hand and punched me in the back 3 times. I told her to back off because even the slightest thing I do causes her injury and she blames me for it and turns that into "you hit me the other day" forgetting that I was either defending myself or taking evasive action.


Dude, I don't care what the excuse, this sounds like a physically abuse marriage and you should not tolerate it one bit.

Otherwise, as you approach the day I would invest in body armour...


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## rileyawes (Jun 28, 2016)

It sounds like you have problems in your marriage that are exacerbated by her menses. Is it possible she has PMDD? She can get medication for that, and decrease the ill effects. If you want to stay married to her, you should insist that she get screened and treated for PMDD as well as see a psychiatrist. It sounds to me like she's angry with you or dissatisfied IN GENERAL and is using her period as an excuse for engaging in behavior that she already knows is wrong.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

I'd call the cops on her and press charges. That would get her to knock it off. How many times do wives do that to their husbands?


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## rileyawes (Jun 28, 2016)

jb02157 said:


> I'd call the cops on her and press charges. That would get her to knock it off. How many times do wives do that to their husbands?


I don't think he should call the police unless he is worried for his safety- if she might seriously hurt him or put his health at risk. Calling the police to "teach her a lesson" is a waste of time and resources. He should tell her to knock it off. Her behavior sounds immature and almost completely unaccountable. She is not hitting him because she "can't control" her temper. She's hitting him because he can't hit her back. When he does, she doesn't see their behavior as equivalent. If he thinks she'll continue that behavior, and he wants to stay married to her, he should insist she get treatment. Honestly, the behavior is not going to get better without intervention. It's only going to escalate, which is why he should get out now or get treatment (for her).


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

jb02157 said:


> I'd call the cops on her and press charges. That would get her to knock it off. How many times do wives do that to their husbands?


In some cultures a husband would never call the police in such circumstances. 

And violence liked this happens to more husbands that you might think possible.


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## Unicus (Jun 2, 2016)

If it's a medical issue, it should be addressed medically. 
The first step is to wait until things settle down and address her behavior with her, and let her know there's a monthly correlation btwn her irrationality, her intense moodiness, and her aggression and her cycle and you want her to make an appt, with her gynecologist to discuss this and evaluate it for meds. and you are happy to participate in that talk.

Calling the cops is extreme, and ignoring it is silly. Don't get side tracked on who ordered the food or your sense of being disrespected, either. You want the problem to go away, and addressing the probable root cause is the best way of accomplishing that.


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

Using PMS as an excuse for violence is unacceptable. 
Can we blame high testosterone levels for violence in men? 
No, I don't think so.

She's just an abuser. 
The best way to deal with her is to have her arrested so she knows she's breaking the law. 
If you have consistent injuries, the police have enough to arrest her. 
She needs to know that it is against the law. 

Yes I get PMS & no I have never ever been violent. 
I'm pretty sure my husband would place me in jail if I behaved like you wife. 








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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Divorce!


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

WTH? I have had TERRIBLE PMS my entire reproductive life, and I have never once hit a man.

It's just nuts that you put up with this. But then you already know this from your many other threads.

I'm with @sokillme. Time for a divorce.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## oceanbreeze (Oct 8, 2007)

Completely agree!


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

I am sorry for being MIA, I had some connectivity issues. I will read all responses and reply over the weekend.

Thanks for replying.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

rileyawes said:


> It sounds like you have problems in your marriage that are exacerbated by her menses. Is it possible she has PMDD? She can get medication for that, and decrease the ill effects. If you want to stay married to her, you should insist that she get screened and treated for PMDD as well as see a psychiatrist. It sounds to me like she's angry with you or dissatisfied IN GENERAL and is using her period as an excuse for engaging in behavior that she already knows is wrong.


I hadn't known of PMDD until I read your post and looked it up. Maybe it is that. And I agree with you about the rest.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

rileyawes said:


> I don't think he should call the police unless he is worried for his safety- if she might seriously hurt him or put his health at risk. Calling the police to "teach her a lesson" is a waste of time and resources. He should tell her to knock it off. Her behavior sounds immature and almost completely unaccountable. She is not hitting him because she "can't control" her temper. She's hitting him because he can't hit her back. When he does, she doesn't see their behavior as equivalent. If he thinks she'll continue that behavior, and he wants to stay married to her, he should insist she get treatment. Honestly, the behavior is not going to get better without intervention. It's only going to escalate, which is why he should get out now or get treatment (for her).



Yes, I am not calling the cops and her behavior does not put my life at risk. It's more like she is angry and wants to hit out in some way. 
I never hit her but i do protect myself. A few times, she's tried to get physical and I have grabbed her hand to protect myself and she's gotten blue marks on her hands from that. I cannot help it, I am much stronger than her. Then she twists things around and shows me the marks after a few days as if I caused it by hitting her "see what you did".


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## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

It's called divorce my friend. No man should be sentenced to a lifetime prison sentence of living with a woman like your wife. Good riddance! Many on here, including me, divorced abusive women and stopped the gravy train. Now my poor ex wife has to work 5 days a week! Ha.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Just saying--- you are not in a balanced marriage. You clearly have let her have all the power in your marriage. You are going to have to stand your ground and scare the hell out of her without physically hurting her. You'll have to figure out how to do this.
One thing, I believe is absolutely certain: If you continue letting your wife disrespect you, you will lose her respect and likely her love. Stop being a doornat
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

nirvana said:


> Yes, I am not calling the cops and her behavior does not put my life at risk. It's more like she is angry and wants to hit out in some way.
> I never hit her but i do protect myself. A few times, she's tried to get physical and I have grabbed her hand to protect myself and she's gotten blue marks on her hands from that. I cannot help it, I am much stronger than her. Then she twists things around and shows me the marks after a few days as if I caused it by hitting her "see what you did".


Her behaviour is classic abuser style. 
Speaking from personal experience here. 
My ex used to blame me, it was my fault that I caused him to be angry. 
If you want to stay married you need to get her in therapy or anger management. 
If you don't do something things may escalate into worse scenarios. 


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

I had written a long reply of the developments in the morning and came back and finished it and clicked Send but I had been logged out.

ARGHHHH

Will write again later.


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## Celes (Apr 28, 2015)

Tell her that next time she hits you, you will file for divorce. Then do it. 

And get yourself to therapy if you aren't in already. You sound like you have major codependency issues. You have an app to track her menstrual cycle for crying out loud.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

Ok, let me try again. 

I have a childhood friend who was always popular with the ladies in school. He somehow managed to impress many if not all. We are all now in a Whatsapp group of our high school class and he is out there openly flirting with all the ladies (married with kids) and they are absolutely loving it. He is married with a kid too. 

Although I don't want to be him and the type of women he likes are not the ones that would appeal to me (I like the intelligent types who can hold a conversation), I had a takeaway from it all. He NEVER gets angry and NEVER gets pissed off. I have known him almost all our lives and he is always the jovial and in a good mood even if he is in the worst mess possible. And he has been in several.

In contrast, I am somewhat highstrung and go through mood-swings and have a tendency to get angry, grumpy and sometimes pissed off. So I decided to try something different. I cannot change her so I decided to change myself first. I definitely see these characteristics as flaws in myself, independent of my wife.

I decided on these guidelines:

1. Don't display anger. If I feel anger, I remind myself to calm down and sometimes walk away. Not in an angry stomping way but calmly as if nothing happened.
2. Buy her gifts. My wife's love language definitely is gifts while I don't care much about them. She always feels I don't buy her enough. I am financially secure and my wife's tastes are reasonable, so I will do this more.
3. Do not give her career or life advice. No more solving her problems. If she wants help, she has to ask me more than once so I am sure she is really asking, not just thinking aloud. I feel she does not value free advice. 
4. Do not be passive aggressive with her. No silent treatment.
5. Do not be clingy, mopey or demanding. Women hate it in general, is an attraction-killer and it makes me feel like a loser .
6. Enjoy life. Go out with the guys, play more sports, have my own hobbies independent of her.
7. Pick my battles. I don't have to "win" every area of difference.
8. Ignore slights or comparisons. I need to get to a level of mental strength where this does not bother me. She, like many women, like to compare everything with others.
9. Do not dredge up the past. Move on.
10. Listen without interrupting and putting in my 2 cents. This is a good habit in general.

So I practiced it for a few days and I think I did about 90% good and I could tell that I was throwing her off balance. I was not reacting as she was expecting. I feel better about myself and I see a big difference in her attitude towards me as well.

It was our wedding anniversary last week so I suggested the two of us go to lunch and an Indian movie (kids with grandparents). She didn't want the movie since it was 3 hours long. I suggested a high-end mall and she agreed. We first had lunch at an fancy restaurant which she enjoyed where we talked about our many years of married life, victories, struggles, kids, challenges, career, etc etc. It was good to reminisce, something we rarely do in everyday life. Then we walked out into the mall to the stores that she wanted to go to. She grabbed my hand tightly as we walked around.

We went into some high-end clothes stores and looked at what she want and I bought her some good brand-name outfits that she liked. I made sure I was right there and involved in the process and not just stand outside the store playing on my phone. I had her try each one out telling her how nice she looked in them. A man's opinion on woman's clothing probably counts for ZERO but I made the effort. I basically agreed to all her thoughts about choice of what to buy. After the selections were made, I made sure I paid for it, though we have a joint credit card and financially doesn't really matter how who pulls out the card. Then I got her a handbag, a wristwatch and a pendent. The pendent, she selected was one with the first letter of my first name! That was sweet. 

She went home and changed her whatsapp profile photo to one of the two of us with my arms lovingly around her from 2 months ago. She later told me she really enjoyed our outing.

That night we had sex. It was fantastic. While she didn't initiate it, she gave me enough signs that she wanted it. She wore something black and slinky and ran her hands on me and I went for it. On her own she rarely initiates, Indian women are not as sexually assertive as Western are portrayed to be.

She is more openly affectionate than earlier. She playfully and lovingly punches me as opposed to angrily punching/biting as earlier. She comes close, gives me a hug around the house for no reason at all. She even compliments me these days for my flat tummy and absence of love handles after my running. This she said after the sex. She very rarely complimented me in the past. Every night in bed, instead of turning away, she turns to my side facing me and runs her hands on me before she falls asleep. 

There were a couple of times when she replied to something I said with clear look of irritation on her face and I just let it slide. Then in 10 minutes she came by to make amends with a simple hug or something like that. 

I am no less the man as I was earlier. The difference is that I just don't get caught up in the morass of arguments, emotions, discussions, contradictions and all that stuff that cause negative energy in her. I avoid fighting with her but I still do as I did earlier. That seems to have made a difference. 

It's just been a week to 10 days, so I cannot say much about how things have gotten better and her next PMS is in 3 weeks or so. 

Let's see how things go. If nothing else, I am a bit happier and am more at peace with myself.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)




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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

Mr. Nail said:


>


Took me ages to get this! I finally got it!  

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

MrsAldi said:


> Took me ages to get this! I finally got it!
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


This worked right up until the time my wife developed a genuine and rather nasty allergy to chocolate. 

It also makes buying presents bloody hard! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

nirvana said:


> My question is tactical - how do I respond to her aggressive behavior during her periods or just prior?


You don't want to hear it, and I know you won't do it, but the answer is to tell her well ahead of time "When your PMS hits, I will not be interacting with you, OR anyone else you bring around, as you make me miserable. Oh, and by the way, the next time we go out with someone and you take over and act like the MAN of the family and order for everyone, guess who is going to pay for the meal? You." 

And then just walk away. And if she brings people around anyway, you go over to them, shake their hands or hug them, say "I'm sorry, but I can't participate tonight. This is a boundary between me and my wife and she crossed it, and I told her I couldn't participate if she crossed that boundary. But I'll be happy to schedule another night when we can all get together, ok?"


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

nm


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Unicus said:


> If it's a medical issue, it should be addressed medically.
> The first step is to wait until things settle down and address her behavior with her, and let her know there's a monthly correlation btwn her irrationality, her intense moodiness, and her aggression and her cycle and you want her to make an appt, with her gynecologist to discuss this and evaluate it for meds. and you are happy to participate in that talk.
> 
> Calling the cops is extreme, and ignoring it is silly. Don't get side tracked on who ordered the food or your sense of being disrespected, either. You want the problem to go away, and addressing the probable root cause is the best way of accomplishing that.


hahaha Make an appt with the gyn because she's abusing him. what???

I feel so sorry for some of you guys on here. The things you are taught to tolerate from women is so very sad. You do not need to tolerate physical or verbal abuse from a woman. GET OUT of such a relationship before she turns around to make it look like you are the abuser, and that happens all the time. Because double standards.

No man should tolerate being bitten, kicked and punched by someone who supposedly should love him. That's NOT love, that's a toxic relationship and while PMS can suck sometimes, it is NOT an excuse to abuse. Please, OP...get out while you can.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

nirvana said:


> Yes, I am not calling the cops and her behavior does not put my life at risk. It's more like she is angry and wants to hit out in some way.
> I never hit her but i do protect myself. A few times, she's tried to get physical and I have grabbed her hand to protect myself and she's gotten blue marks on her hands from that. I cannot help it, I am much stronger than her. Then she twists things around and shows me the marks after a few days as if I caused it by hitting her "see what you did".


trust me, she will hurt you someday...and have you arrested if you don't get out while you still can. we see this on the news all the time. don't make excuses for abuse. it's abuse. angry she has her period? lol 

the problem though is not really her, it's that you don't think highly enough of yourself and therefore...tolerate abuse. this isn't an insult to you, this is to help you see that you are co-dependent, and this cycle will go on forever, if you let it. or worse, you will be arrested some day because abusers don't stop.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

nirvana said:


> Ok, let me try again.
> 
> I have a childhood friend who was always popular with the ladies in school. He somehow managed to impress many if not all. We are all now in a Whatsapp group of our high school class and he is out there openly flirting with all the ladies (married with kids) and they are absolutely loving it. He is married with a kid too.
> 
> ...


The cycle of abuse, this is the happy time...until she feels like raging on you again.

You're in an abusive relationship no matter what you tell yourself. How do I know? Because I was in one. And they ALL go like this...the person rages, hits, abuses...then...the calm sets in, the apologies, etc...

Cycle of abuse.


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## rileyawes (Jun 28, 2016)

:iagree: Don't be lulled into a false sense of security here. You're already walking on eggshells, and that's not okay.

I'm glad you've found a better way to relate to your wife, but nothing that you're doing is the reason that she's hitting you. She's hitting you because she can get away with it. It's definitely gratifying for her to be able to let out her aggression, but most people do this by taking a run, journalling, eating ice cream, crying, yelling, calling a friend, etc, NOT hitting. Every three year old has heard this many times, but your wife needs to keep hearing it apparently.

Please talk to her in a calm moment and let her know that you will no longer tolerate being hit. If this seems to be hormonal, it's possible that medication can help keep her emotions at a more moderate level. I've known mood stabilizers, mild anti-psychotics, and hormones to help out. One of my close friends has PMDD and she's had a lot of success moderating the negative emotions (she would get extremely depressed) preceding her period.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

If any of us were hit by a stranger say at the mall, we would call the police. Why do we accept hitting, biting and kicking from someone we're in a relationship with? PMS is not an excuse, it is the excuse that his manipulative wife has used, but it's not an excuse. She's not well, and is an abuser. Please stop candy coating this everyone simply because she's a woman. It's abuse. Would you all feel differently if there's kids involved, and she starts hitting, biting and kicking her kids? Then, you'd be calling it...abuse. Men can be abused too, and this OP is in an abusive relationship.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

*Deidre* said:


> If any of us were hit by a stranger say at the mall, we would call the police. Why do we accept hitting, biting and kicking from someone we're in a relationship with? PMS is not an excuse, it is the excuse that his manipulative wife has used, but it's not an excuse. She's not well, and is an abuser. Please stop candy coating this everyone simply because she's a woman. It's abuse. Would you all feel differently if there's kids involved, and she starts hitting, biting and kicking her kids? Then, you'd be calling it...abuse. Men can be abused too, and this OP is in an abusive relationship.


100x this.

PMS/Menopause are bs excuses. Nothing you are doing/not doing is making her hit you. Just as nothing a woman does/doesn't do makes a man hit her.

Do you really think that if you hit her, and blamed your testosterone that she'd say "oh ok". Of course not. You'd be in the slammer before you could blink - as you should be, and so my friend, should she.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

I just leave the toilet seat up. Revenge is best served cold.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I had a couple of Indian coworkers a decade back. The husband was the mellowest dude ever, and a brilliant engineer and manager. The wife was high strung and few people except me could work with her.

On a few occasions I noticed scratches on hubby and he sheepishly explained it was the rose bushes or a DIY project accident.

A couple years ago they divorced. Turns out she was physically abusive. The guy simply walked out. He's having a blast and she's miserable.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Nirvana,
This step definitively makes you much MORE the man.

Encourage the playfully rough contact. This is a type of foreplay on her part. 

And - the things she did - that WAS her initiating. And I find it way hotter when a partner does that - as opposed to directly asking.







nirvana said:


> Ok, let me try again.
> 
> I have a childhood friend who was always popular with the ladies in school. He somehow managed to impress many if not all. We are all now in a Whatsapp group of our high school class and he is out there openly flirting with all the ladies (married with kids) and they are absolutely loving it. He is married with a kid too.
> 
> ...


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

I've adopted this for about 3 weeks (from July 1) and have had only 1 slippage, so I think I am doing quite well. And this time I don't feel like I am adopting a behavior that is foreign to me, I feel much more at ease and it feels natural. There have been a few times that I felt I was slipping and I pulled myself back. 

My wife's favorite band is coming to town and she told me about it. I said sure, let's go. Then she began to insist that we take our 2 kids also. They are too small and don't even know and don't care. They'll just fidget through the show and my daughter will want me to take her to the bathroom mid-show and as much as I love my kids, I will be annoyed. It's a great chance to take the wife out on a date to something she likes. Some other friends (couples) are going too and have already bought tickets (she told my wife). I cannot spend $500 on an event when $250 worth is wasted. I don't mind using the $250 on tennis and dance lessons for the kids instead. My wife does not agree. She thinks this will be a "life time's experience". I told her they will go to shows and other events with their own partners, you don't have to do everything. So I asked her after a few days and she said let's not go.

I think this is one of the times when a No means a Yes. So either way, I decided to buy 2 tickets (not 4) without telling her and just take her to the show. She might get mad I didn't take the kids, but I think she will forgive me for it. I've asked the other friend where they got tickets so we can be close to them. Let's see how it goes. I know very much that she wants to go and am willing to put the $250 at risk.

Last weekend I felt like having sex, so I just turned on her, grabbed her and begin to kiss her. She didn't respond at first but then she did. That was fun and that is how I used to do it many many years ago!


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

john117 said:


> I had a couple of Indian coworkers a decade back. The husband was the mellowest dude ever, and a brilliant engineer and manager. The wife was high strung and few people except me could work with her.
> 
> On a few occasions I noticed scratches on hubby and he sheepishly explained it was the rose bushes or a DIY project accident.
> 
> A couple years ago they divorced. Turns out she was physically abusive. The guy simply walked out. He's having a blast and she's miserable.


A lot of Indian women take their husbands for granted. This is true especially in arranged marriage type of situations where there was no "dating" and the girl didn't have to make herself attractive to get the guy. She never had to work to get him by dressing up attractively or even being sexually available. Of course the reverse is true also. Most middle class girls go from their daddy's houses to their husbands houses without any experience on how hard it is to make a buck and manage life on their own. They expect their husbands to give them a life comparable to their life at daddy's. But the husband is just starting off and does not have the money to do so.

As 40s approach, the men have good careers making lots of money and want to focus on other things other that just work. Mid life crisis? Maybe. But their wives have turned from slim girls into grumpy overweight women with no sex appeal fawning over the kids. I see this ALL the time in my circle. The guys are now rich and want to have a hottie and their wives have let themselves go over the prior decade blaming it on pregnancy and other reasons. These guys start to look at other younger girls or other people's wives. My wife has been grumpy and fawns over the kids all the time but she has taken care of herself and looks hot. I've seen some guys hit on my wife in subtle ways. One fellow said loudly how "lucky" I was to be married to her. Another fellow complimented me on a selfie (with wife) profile picture over a Whatsapp message. Obviously he wasn't admiring me. My wife also told me this. Last year this time when the Indian coworker was calling her on the way back from work, I did some research and found the Facebook account of his wife. She was overweight and not very attractive looking because of that. Hair was not taken care of. So the husband was trying to be work-husband to my wife. BTW, he's started to call again a few times here and there and I am monitoring.


Anyway, I want to clarify that in our case, my wife does not start hitting or biting just off the bat. We usually have an argument and it escalates and I play my part in allowing it to escalate. I am also guilty of adding fuel to it just as she is. I never hit her but sometimes she does. 

More recently, I have learned to de-escalate and move away. So it never gets to a heated situation. So there is no hitting. Her PMS is approaching in 10 days so that will be another test.

My friend might be goofy but I've learned the art of forgiveness from him. He never gets angry or negative and the ladies love him! Seriously, I've known him all my life and he's been popular for decades. I can use this with a twist that suits me. Signs are encouraging for now.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

frusdil said:


> 100x this.
> 
> PMS/Menopause are bs excuses. Nothing you are doing/not doing is making her hit you. Just as nothing a woman does/doesn't do makes a man hit her.
> 
> Do you really think that if you hit her, and blamed your testosterone that she'd say "oh ok". Of course not. You'd be in the slammer before you could blink - as you should be, and so my friend, should she.


No excuses for her hitting, but I do my bit in allowing things to escalate. I don't hit her in any situation. I just protect myself sometimes and she gets hurt and she blames me. But now that I don't allow things to escalate, this has not happened. No hitting from her either.

We went to pick up the other things I bought her for our anniversary (watch, pendent etc) and she was very happy and grabbed my arm again and was quite loving. It will take time but I think I am on the right path. Her career is looking up and mine seems to be as well and I am getting calls for higher level positions. This year and next look promising.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

rileyawes said:


> :iagree: Don't be lulled into a false sense of security here. You're already walking on eggshells, and that's not okay.
> 
> I'm glad you've found a better way to relate to your wife, but nothing that you're doing is the reason that she's hitting you. She's hitting you because she can get away with it. It's definitely gratifying for her to be able to let out her aggression, but most people do this by taking a run, journalling, eating ice cream, crying, yelling, calling a friend, etc, NOT hitting. Every three year old has heard this many times, but your wife needs to keep hearing it apparently.
> 
> Please talk to her in a calm moment and let her know that you will no longer tolerate being hit. If this seems to be hormonal, it's possible that medication can help keep her emotions at a more moderate level. I've known mood stabilizers, mild anti-psychotics, and hormones to help out. One of my close friends has PMDD and she's had a lot of success moderating the negative emotions (she would get extremely depressed) preceding her period.


What has passed is past. She has hit me and I have also said some nasty things as well. One of my resolutions is not to dredge up the past, so I am willing to let things go and forgive.

This is not to say that she is always rational. Far from it. But I don't let that bother me any more and don't respond and try to pick apart her weird reasonings and piss her off. I just don't respond. At a later time, I bring it up from a different angle and she replies more logically. My coworker says his wife is the same way. Totally irrational at times and wanting something because someone else is doing it or because "what will people think". I can't run my/our lives because of fear of what someone will think.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

turnera said:


> You don't want to hear it, and I know you won't do it, but the answer is to tell her well ahead of time "When your PMS hits, I will not be interacting with you, OR anyone else you bring around, as you make me miserable. Oh, and by the way, the next time we go out with someone and you take over and act like the MAN of the family and order for everyone, guess who is going to pay for the meal? You."
> 
> And then just walk away. And if she brings people around anyway, you go over to them, shake their hands or hug them, say "I'm sorry, but I can't participate tonight. This is a boundary between me and my wife and she crossed it, and I told her I couldn't participate if she crossed that boundary. But I'll be happy to schedule another night when we can all get together, ok?"


turnera, are you sure about this? It seems to me that if I say "when your PMS hits..." I will be making her feel like she has some dreaded disease. That would make her angrier because she thinks she is being normal and rational. I've had better luck not referring to her PMS because she takes it like a taunt. I just have my app send me an alert and I make sure that I am extra careful and not sensitive to any irritation on her part.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

nirvana said:


> Yes, I am not calling the cops and her behavior does not put my life at risk. It's more like she is angry and wants to hit out in some way.
> I never hit her but i do protect myself. A few times, she's tried to get physical and I have grabbed her hand to protect myself and she's gotten blue marks on her hands from that. I cannot help it, I am much stronger than her. Then she twists things around and shows me the marks after a few days as if I caused it by hitting her "see what you did".


this is the stuff you really need to be worried about.

if it comes down to he said/ she said, the cops will side with her every time.

Assuming you are not ready to pull the trigger on divorce, if I were you, I would let her know that I'm taking off while she has her period until she learns to get a handle on herself. 

Stay with relatives or at a hotel. She either controls herself or you remove yourself.

You do not want to put yourself in a situation in which you are getting into physical altercations with a woman. it will end badly for you, not her.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

nirvana said:


> Ok, let me try again.
> 
> I have a childhood friend who was always popular with the ladies in school. He somehow managed to impress many if not all. We are all now in a Whatsapp group of our high school class and he is out there openly flirting with all the ladies (married with kids) and they are absolutely loving it. He is married with a kid too.
> 
> ...


this is a mixed bag

good that you are trying to control your anger and negativity

bad that you are kissing up to her when she doesn't deserve it.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

nirvana said:


> I've adopted this for about 3 weeks (from July 1) and have had only 1 slippage, so I think I am doing quite well. And this time I don't feel like I am adopting a behavior that is foreign to me, I feel much more at ease and it feels natural. There have been a few times that I felt I was slipping and I pulled myself back.
> 
> My wife's favorite band is coming to town and she told me about it. I said sure, let's go. Then she began to insist that we take our 2 kids also. They are too small and don't even know and don't care. They'll just fidget through the show and my daughter will want me to take her to the bathroom mid-show and as much as I love my kids, I will be annoyed. It's a great chance to take the wife out on a date to something she likes. Some other friends (couples) are going too and have already bought tickets (she told my wife). I cannot spend $500 on an event when $250 worth is wasted. I don't mind using the $250 on tennis and dance lessons for the kids instead. My wife does not agree. She thinks this will be a "life time's experience". I told her they will go to shows and other events with their own partners, you don't have to do everything. So I asked her after a few days and she said let's not go.
> 
> ...


I like the risk taking but she may get annoyed at you for doing this and refuse to go. 

there is a power imbalance here and there is a good chance she won't like your ignoring her instructions even if you are ultimately trying to do something nice.

if she does this, you need to go without her


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

nirvana said:


> My wife has been grumpy and fawns over the kids all the time but she has taken care of herself and looks hot. I've seen some guys hit on my wife in subtle ways. One fellow said loudly how "lucky" I was to be married to her. Another fellow complimented me on a selfie (with wife) profile picture over a Whatsapp message. Obviously he wasn't admiring me. My wife also told me this. Last year this time when the Indian coworker was calling her on the way back from work, I did some research and found the Facebook account of his wife. She was overweight and not very attractive looking because of that. Hair was not taken care of. So the husband was trying to be work-husband to my wife. BTW, he's started to call again a few times here and there and I am monitoring.


there are some red flags here. why do various men think it is OK to hit on your wife if they know she is married?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Things sound very good, nirvana! Glad you learned from your friend.

You sound empowered. You know how to prevent escalation, and you actively employ those techniques. And your wife respects you for it. Good work!


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

*Deidre* said:


> hahaha Make an appt with the gyn because she's abusing him. what???
> 
> I feel so sorry for some of you guys on here. The things you are taught to tolerate from women is so very sad. You do not need to tolerate physical or verbal abuse from a woman. GET OUT of such a relationship before she turns around to make it look like you are the abuser, and that happens all the time. Because double standards.
> 
> No man should tolerate being bitten, kicked and punched by someone who supposedly should love him. That's NOT love, that's a toxic relationship and while PMS can suck sometimes, it is NOT an excuse to abuse. Please, OP...get out while you can.


Deirdre, you are right, but the situation is more complex. There is a lot at stake, I cannot just pack up and leave because of a fight or a series of them. My wife's big problem is she takes cues from others (friends, relatives etc). If they have something, she has to have it. If I had listened to all her demands over the years, we would be still in our apartment. And she would have blamed me for it as well! "You did not do well in your career so...". This is not uncommon, many guys complain that their wives are like this. I have been strong and careful considering we were single income for many years.

Deirdre, many women think it is easy to be a man. They cite the salary statistics on how men find it easier to make money and there is bias. That may be the case decades ago, but today society looks down on men and the weaker ones have capitulated. If they behave like men, they are "pigs". If they get worn down, their women taunt them with "be a man!". Of course, you cannot taunt a woman in the same way and she gets to do whatever she wants.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> I like the risk taking but she may get annoyed at you for doing this and refuse to go.
> 
> there is a power imbalance here and there is a good chance she won't like your ignoring her instructions even if you are ultimately trying to do something nice.
> 
> if she does this, you need to go without her


If she refuses to go, then fine. She knows I've paid for it. It is her choice at that point. That was the risk I was talking about - the financial risk.

At that point, I can sell the ticket or just go myself and waste 1 ticket. Let's see what happens! The only thing is that I am not a huge fan of the band though I think they are good.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

jld said:


> Things sound very good, nirvana! Glad you learned from your friend.
> 
> You sound empowered. You know how to prevent escalation, and you actively employ those techniques. And your wife respects you for it. Good work!


I have always wanted my wife to be "my friend". Unfortunately I don't think it is possible or possible in my case. Not all women want to be equals and friends, some want to be treated in an old fashioned way. I guess every woman is different. 

I can always discuss the things I want to talk about with my male friends and my wife for the male-female stuff. It's a balance of course.

In the end, I feel much better about myself. That is key for me.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> there are some red flags here. why do various men think it is OK to hit on your wife if they know she is married?


It's very subtle and not overt. But I can sense it and my wife has said so as well. There is this couple we know for more than a decade and the husband likes to show himself to be the perfect husband and he had all the ladies fooled for years. They all thought he was awesome and his wife was lucky (until it came out that he was severely in debt) so not as successful as he was showing to be. He told his wife to "relax" while I was encouraging mine to work on having a career. She got to show off her relaxed life while my wife had to take courses and interview. Of course, in her angry moods, she used to complain, but she loves the fact that she is working and has a career and contributes financially. Of course she won't give me any credit for pushing her but that's okay.  Now that other woman has become fat and lazy and so unattractive. She wears brand name stuff but extra large size clothes. My wife wears extra small. My wife is a year older than her. I think he's woken up to what he's done and he treats his wife with very low respect. It is unfair what he did and I feel bad for his wife but she is guilty of making my wife feel bad about herself (which she took out on me) too.

Men are men. A pretty woman catches any man's attention. That is the way we are.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

nirvana said:


> I have always wanted my wife to be "my friend". Unfortunately I don't think it is possible or possible in my case. Not all women want to be equals and friends, some want to be treated in an old fashioned way. I guess every woman is different.
> 
> I can always discuss the things I want to talk about with my male friends and my wife for the male-female stuff. It's a balance of course.
> 
> In the end, I feel much better about myself. That is key for me.


Is it enough for you? Can you be satisfied if things were to continue as they have for the last few weeks?


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

nirvana said:


> If she refuses to go, then fine. She knows I've paid for it. It is her choice at that point. That was the risk I was talking about - the financial risk.
> 
> At that point, I can sell the ticket or just go myself and waste 1 ticket. Let's see what happens! The only thing is that I am not a huge fan of the band though I think they are good.


if it comes to this, then definitely bring a friend and go without her.

she needs to see that life does not stop just because she has a temper tantrum.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

nirvana said:


> It's very subtle and not overt. But I can sense it and my wife has said so as well. There is this couple we know for more than a decade and the husband likes to show himself to be the perfect husband and he had all the ladies fooled for years. They all thought he was awesome and his wife was lucky (until it came out that he was severely in debt) so not as successful as he was showing to be. He told his wife to "relax" while I was encouraging mine to work on having a career. She got to show off her relaxed life while my wife had to take courses and interview. Of course, in her angry moods, she used to complain, but she loves the fact that she is working and has a career and contributes financially. Of course she won't give me any credit for pushing her but that's okay.  Now that other woman has become fat and lazy and so unattractive. She wears brand name stuff but extra large size clothes. My wife wears extra small. My wife is a year older than her. I think he's woken up to what he's done and he treats his wife with very low respect. It is unfair what he did and I feel bad for his wife but she is guilty of making my wife feel bad about herself (which she took out on me) too.
> 
> Men are men. A pretty woman catches any man's attention. That is the way we are.


you missed my point

OK, she is pretty and all men like pretty women. Of course.

but there are pretty women who are married and make it clear that they are not looking for male attention and then there are pretty women who are married who broadcast that they are open to male attention.

if your wife has guys calling her outside of work, which category do you think she is in?

I'm not trying to put you down, by the way, just trying to point out some issues I'm sensing.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> bad that you are kissing up to her when she doesn't deserve it.


Well, someone's gotta go first.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

nirvana said:


> If she refuses to go, then fine. She knows I've paid for it. It is her choice at that point. That was the risk I was talking about - the financial risk.
> 
> At that point, I can sell the ticket or just go myself and waste 1 ticket. Let's see what happens! The only thing is that I am not a huge fan of the band though I think they are good.


Go yourself and waste one ticket.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> Well, someone's gotta go first.


good point.

I wonder if saying something like the following would be worth it:

"Isn't it nice to be together like this? I really enjoy doing nice things with you, but when I feel disrespected I'm not very motivated to act this way. I'm trying to show how things could be if we treated each other better. Is that something you're interested in?"


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> good point.
> 
> I wonder if saying something like the following would be worth it:
> 
> "Isn't it nice to be together like this? I really enjoy doing nice things with you, but when I feel disrespected I'm not very motivated to act this way. I'm trying to show how things could be if we treated each other better. Is that something you're interested in?"


I don't think she is. If he takes the lead, though, she will respond in ways he likes.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

N,

If it was me I would 
1. Arrange for a sitter she trusts for that night 
AND
2. If she declines to go say: Would you like me to get you a shirt or a souvenir from the kiosk?

Now (2) cannot be a sarcastic thing - it has to be a sincere act of kindness.

And yes - I would attend without her. And this needs to become a marital 'theme'. The theme is - I absolutely want you to join me, and will accept it if you elect not to. Either way - I'm going. 

That said - I only battle it out with M2 over big stuff. In this case - I would have done what you did. This wasn't just a date, it was an adult type activity and an expensive one at that. 

N2 needs to learn to compromise. 





nirvana said:


> It's very subtle and not overt. But I can sense it and my wife has said so as well. There is this couple we know for more than a decade and the husband likes to show himself to be the perfect husband and he had all the ladies fooled for years. They all thought he was awesome and his wife was lucky (until it came out that he was severely in debt) so not as successful as he was showing to be. He told his wife to "relax" while I was encouraging mine to work on having a career. She got to show off her relaxed life while my wife had to take courses and interview. Of course, in her angry moods, she used to complain, but she loves the fact that she is working and has a career and contributes financially. Of course she won't give me any credit for pushing her but that's okay.  Now that other woman has become fat and lazy and so unattractive. She wears brand name stuff but extra large size clothes. My wife wears extra small. My wife is a year older than her. I think he's woken up to what he's done and he treats his wife with very low respect. It is unfair what he did and I feel bad for his wife but she is guilty of making my wife feel bad about herself (which she took out on me) too.
> 
> Men are men. A pretty woman catches any man's attention. That is the way we are.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Anon,
I wouldn't say the bit about disrespect. There is no clear cut right and wrong in this type event regarding the inclusion of children. 

N2 can just as easily claim he isn't respecting her desires. 

This is purely a matter of being willing or unwilling to do something. 

It is perfectly fine to say: I am not willing to bring the children.

It's a whole different thing to turn this into a battle over who is being disrespectful to whom. 

And this is an important point and not a small one. Trying to turn this into a - I'm right and you're wrong - type exercise - will end badly. 

There is stuff I'm not willing to do. And stuff M2 isn't willing to do. And that's ok. I don't accuse her of being disrespectful when she passes on an invite. And if she does that to me - I shrug and tell her I'm sorry she feels that way. 

An opposing point of view isn't inherently disrespectful. And there needs to be room in a marriage for opposing viewpoints.




Anon1111 said:


> good point.
> 
> I wonder if saying something like the following would be worth it:
> 
> "Isn't it nice to be together like this? I really enjoy doing nice things with you, but when I feel disrespected I'm not very motivated to act this way. I'm trying to show how things could be if we treated each other better.  Is that something you're interested in?"


----------



## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

nirvana said:


> Deirdre, you are right, but the situation is more complex. There is a lot at stake, I cannot just pack up and leave because of a fight or a series of them. My wife's big problem is she takes cues from others (friends, relatives etc). If they have something, she has to have it. If I had listened to all her demands over the years, we would be still in our apartment. And she would have blamed me for it as well! "You did not do well in your career so...". This is not uncommon, many guys complain that their wives are like this. I have been strong and careful considering we were single income for many years.
> 
> Deirdre, many women think it is easy to be a man. They cite the salary statistics on how men find it easier to make money and there is bias. That may be the case decades ago, but today society looks down on men and the weaker ones have capitulated. If they behave like men, they are "pigs". If they get worn down, their women taunt them with "be a man!". Of course, you cannot taunt a woman in the same way and she gets to do whatever she wants.


Your wife's an abuser, and you shouldn't stay with an abuser. Your excuse making is part of the abuse cycle, actually. Everything you're talking about here are excuses for her abuse. Normal relationships don't have kicking, biting and hitting. Sorry, they don't. This isn't a typical marriage problem, she's an abuser. Abusers can't abuse, unless someone lets them. Your life...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

It took me a LONG LONG time to grasp the difference between - persuasion and coercion. 

While it is easier to recognize one vs the other in situation specific cases, the following is generally true. 

The explicit linking of behavior to a punitive consequence: in the case below - withdrawal or reduction in effort - is coercive. 

Oddly enough paradox rules apply. The 'weaker' spouse will often respond far more negatively to coercion, than a stronger spouse. 

The comic strip version of this is your 4 year old child threatening to slug you if they don't get a PS4 game for Christmas. Probably not going to spike your vitals. 

I cannot speak for N2. I will say - that persuasion works great with M2. While any type of coercion damn near guarantees aggressive escalation. 





Anon1111 said:


> good point.
> 
> I wonder if saying something like the following would be worth it:
> 
> "Isn't it nice to be together like this? I really enjoy doing nice things with you, but when I feel disrespected I'm not very motivated to act this way. I'm trying to show how things could be if we treated each other better. Is that something you're interested in?"


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> It took me a LONG LONG time to grasp the difference between - persuasion and coercion.
> 
> While it is easier to recognize one vs the other in situation specific cases, the following is generally true.
> 
> ...


Good. That is healthy.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

MEM's definition physical aggression that is actually abusive:
1. The recipient feels genuine fear for their safety in the moment
Or
2. The recipient comes to generally feel intimidated or frightened of their partner
Or
3. The recipient is injured (requires medical treatment) - biting someone and breaking their skin is seriously dangerous (infection)
Or
4. The recipient is smaller/weaker than their partner

What say you Nirvana?






*Deidre* said:


> Your wife's an abuser, and you shouldn't stay with an abuser. Your excuse making is part of the abuse cycle, actually. Everything you're talking about here are excuses for her abuse. Normal relationships don't have kicking, biting and hitting. Sorry, they don't. This isn't a typical marriage problem, she's an abuser. Abusers can't abuse, unless someone lets them. Your life...


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

And that ^^ is why women get away with abusing men. Abuse is abuse, no matter who is administering it. I feel sorry for some of you guys, you really have been brainwashed somewhere along the line to thinking that accepting abuse from a woman is okay because she is smaller than you. Or weaker. Or whatever. 

Physically abusive women are also emotionally abusive. Manipulative. Just like abusive men. And these types of women will get men to hit them, so they can call the police. Abuse is abuse, no matter the gender.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

*Deidre* said:


> And that ^^ is why women get away with abusing men. Abuse is abuse, no matter who is administering it. I feel sorry for some of you guys, you really have been brainwashed somewhere along the line to thinking that accepting abuse from a woman is okay because she is smaller than you. Or weaker. Or whatever.
> 
> Physically abusive women are also emotionally abusive. Manipulative. Just like abusive men. And these types of women will get men to hit them, so they can call the police. Abuse is abuse, no matter the gender.


Do you feel abused, nirvana?

If you do, you certainly have the right to get the police involved.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Biting, kicking and hitting is abuse. If he doesn't see that, that is also part of what it's like to be in an abusive relationship. If you've never been abused by someone emotionally or physically, then you just don't know.  People who are abused in relationships, often make a lot of excuses for it. Even kids make excuses for their parents who abuse them. Abuse is when it is chronic (sounds like it happens every month, at least) and the abuser doesn't see it as abuse. They see it as justified, or in this case...''pms related.'' 

If some of you have sons, would you want your sons dating women who kick/hit/bite them? What advice would you give your own children in abusive relationships? If you would suggest for them to not tolerate abuse, then you should offer that same advice to anyone.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Deidre,
There is no doubt in my mind that something is seriously wrong - if N2 needs to act out physically on a regular basis. 

Over time, I've gotten the impression that N2 has injured Nirvanas (self described LARGE ego) far more than his chassis (body).

I will leave it to him to clarify this.






*Deidre* said:


> And that ^^ is why women get away with abusing men. Abuse is abuse, no matter who is administering it. I feel sorry for some of you guys, you really have been brainwashed somewhere along the line to thinking that accepting abuse from a woman is okay because she is smaller than you. Or weaker. Or whatever.
> 
> Physically abusive women are also emotionally abusive. Manipulative. Just like abusive men. And these types of women will get men to hit them, so they can call the police. Abuse is abuse, no matter the gender.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

*Deidre* said:


> Biting, kicking and hitting is abuse. If he doesn't see that, that is also part of what it's like to be in an abusive relationship. If you've never been abused by someone emotionally or physically, then you just don't know.  People who are abused in relationships, often make a lot of excuses for it. Even kids make excuses for their parents who abuse them. Abuse is when it is chronic (sounds like it happens every month, at least) and the abuser doesn't see it as abuse. They see it as justified, or in this case...''pms related.''
> 
> If some of you have sons, would you want your sons dating women who kick/hit/bite them? What advice would you give your own children in abusive relationships? If you would suggest for them to not tolerate abuse, then you should offer that same advice to anyone.


No, I would not want my sons to be with women who regularly physically aggressed them. Honestly, if those women felt the need to do that with my sons, I would not want that situation to continue for those gals, either. There are more compatible matches out there for both.

I would also not want my daughter with a man with the sort of ego issues nirvana has, or who viewed her through the physical lens that nirvana views his wife, or women in general. Neither side here, imo, has a clean bill of psychological health.

I would not want any of my children in an arranged marriage, period. 

And after living 3 years in India with my husband and children, I am very thankful I do not face the challenges both men and women in that society do.

Are you familiar with Indian culture, Deidre? Because that is the context of nirvana's marriage. And unless we look at the marriage in its context, cultural and otherwise, I am not sure our advice is going to be very helpful. 

Nevertheless, Deidre does have a point. The physical aggression nirvana's wife has engaged in on more than one occasion, especially if there is physical evidence, could earn her a visit from the police (if they are currently living here in America), and possibly a legal record.

Nirvana, is that the road you want to go down? Could you explain why or why not?

One more question for you, Deidre. Do you see nirvana as a victim? Why or why not?


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## Celes (Apr 28, 2015)

*Deidre* said:


> And that ^^ is why women get away with abusing men. Abuse is abuse, no matter who is administering it. I feel sorry for some of you guys, you really have been brainwashed somewhere along the line to thinking that accepting abuse from a woman is okay because she is smaller than you. Or weaker. Or whatever.
> 
> Physically abusive women are also emotionally abusive. Manipulative. Just like abusive men. And these types of women will get men to hit them, so they can call the police. Abuse is abuse, no matter the gender.


Completely agree. The responses in this thread are very disappointing. It doesn't matter if the perpetrator doesn't inflict pain or fear, or is smaller than the victim. Hitting your spouse in anger should NEVER happen.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Celes said:


> Completely agree. The responses in this thread are very disappointing. It doesn't matter if the perpetrator doesn't inflict pain or fear, or is smaller than the victim. Hitting your spouse in anger should NEVER happen.


So what do you suggest he do?


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## Celes (Apr 28, 2015)

jld said:


> So what do you suggest he do?


I had posted that he needs to tell her that should she ever hit him again he will divorce her. Then follow up with his promise if she does. He also needs to get into therapy, he's clearly extremely codependent.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Celes said:


> I had posted that he needs to tell her that should she ever hit him again he will divorce her. Then follow up with his promise if she does. He also needs to get into therapy, he's clearly extremely codependent.


Do you want to do this, nirvana?

It might be good to explain why or why not, if you have not already done so.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> if it comes to this, then definitely bring a friend and go without her.
> 
> she needs to see that life does not stop just because she has a temper tantrum.


The big problem I have is that she thinks that life is all about being a "good mom" and she overdoes the mom thing and wants everyone to applaud her for bring a "great mom". Her sis is the total opposite and is actually more fun than my wife though she neglects her kids. My wife is very controlling as our older one is approaching teenage and is rebelling. I tell her to back off but she always prefers to learn the hard way so I let it be. She thinks taking the kids to a concert is "a life long experience". They are going to be bored to death there.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> you missed my point
> 
> OK, she is pretty and all men like pretty women. Of course.
> 
> ...


She dresses well but professionally to work. No skin show or anything and I have seen how some women dress.
Last year she started her first real job after we got married a decade+ ago and she was a mom until then and was not used to the attention. It is a fact that women get more attention at the work place. She is a friendly social person by nature and some guys can mistake that and try to be over-friendly. This one guy tried to be her friend and tell her about the office politics and give her advice and all that and my wife had this thing of wanting to excel at work so she would listen. This could potentially be dangerous and I talked to her about it last July.
The calling stopped for a long time and last months he called to congratulate her for a role change around 5pm (she was at home) and one day on the way to work at 8am. No smoking gun and I didn't want to make a big deal but I am watching. They could be discussing work though I think they should discuss work from 9-5 only.

I don't think she is looking for attention pro-actively though. I think its more a case of some guys thinking her being nice is interest.


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Anon,
> I wouldn't say the bit about disrespect. There is no clear cut right and wrong in this type event regarding the inclusion of children.
> 
> N2 can just as easily claim he isn't respecting her desires.
> ...


the disrespect comment wasn't in regard to the concert, it was in regard to his wife hitting him and being rude to him in front of their extended family

there is a general attitude of disrespect being displayed by his wife


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

nirvana said:


> She dresses well but professionally to work. No skin show or anything and I have seen how some women dress.
> Last year she started her first real job after we got married a decade+ ago and she was a mom until then and was not used to the attention. It is a fact that women get more attention at the work place. She is a friendly social person by nature and some guys can mistake that and try to be over-friendly. This one guy tried to be her friend and tell her about the office politics and give her advice and all that and my wife had this thing of wanting to excel at work so she would listen. This could potentially be dangerous and I talked to her about it last July.
> The calling stopped for a long time and last months he called to congratulate her for a role change around 5pm (she was at home) and one day on the way to work at 8am. No smoking gun and I didn't want to make a big deal but I am watching. They could be discussing work though I think they should discuss work from 9-5 only.
> 
> I don't think she is looking for attention pro-actively though. I think its more a case of some guys thinking her being nice is interest.


there's no reason for any guy to be calling your wife outside of work to "congratulate" her. this guy could easily wait until she is in the office. he is looking for an excuse to call her

if this has happened repeatedly, then your wife has boundary issues in my opinion


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> MEM's definition physical aggression that is actually abusive:
> 1. The recipient feels genuine fear for their safety in the moment
> Or
> 2. The recipient comes to generally feel intimidated or frightened of their partner
> ...


this is a pretty narrow definition

in particular, this list does not take into account the full power dynamic. 

It's not just about who is physically stronger. 

If Nirvana is getting into physical altercations with his wife, the law will be heavily stacked against him.

he is taking a massive risk by allowing himself to be placed in this position of having to defend himself physically.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> the disrespect comment wasn't in regard to the concert, it was in regard to his wife hitting him and being rude to him in front of their extended family
> 
> there is a general attitude of disrespect being displayed by his wife


He is working on earning her respect now.

He also needs to work on his pride issues.


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

*Deidre* said:


> And that ^^ is why women get away with abusing men. Abuse is abuse, no matter who is administering it. I feel sorry for some of you guys, you really have been brainwashed somewhere along the line to thinking that accepting abuse from a woman is okay because she is smaller than you. Or weaker. Or whatever.
> 
> Physically abusive women are also emotionally abusive. Manipulative. Just like abusive men. And these types of women will get men to hit them, so they can call the police. Abuse is abuse, no matter the gender.


bingo!!


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

jld said:


> He is working on earning her respect now.
> 
> He also needs to work on his pride issues.


if by "pride" you mean lack of self-respect, then I agree.

otherwise, you are simply victim blaming.


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Deidre,
> There is no doubt in my mind that something is seriously wrong - if N2 needs to act out physically on a regular basis.
> 
> Over time, I've gotten the impression that N2 has injured Nirvanas (self described LARGE ego) far more than his chassis (body).
> ...


Mem, she is placing his personal freedom to see his children and walk the streets in jeopardy every time this happens

little cuts and bruises are irrelevant


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> if by "pride" you mean lack of self-respect, then I agree.
> 
> otherwise, you are simply victim blaming.


I disagree. Why does it matter who orders the food? That is a pride/image issue.

Nirvana, I don't get the feeling you feel physically threatened by your wife. I do think your pride is threatened by her, though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

jld said:


> Is it enough for you? Can you be satisfied if things were to continue as they have for the last few weeks?


It's a big improvement from earlier and for now, I think it is good. There can always be more but I think I need to stabilize this first and ensure that I have overcome bad habits in myself. Only then will I be able to expect more from her. 

There are a few more challenges ahead. Her parents are staying with us and they are leaving soon. She is kind of worried about what people think about her. 

I take this as a development activity for myself than doing something merely to impress her.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

QFT

What gets ordered needs to be collaborative. 

Who orders - is - purely about optics. 

And there isn't enough space in a healthy marriage - for 2 insecure people. 





jld said:


> I disagree. Why does it matter who orders the food? That is a pride/image issue.
> 
> Nirvana, I don't get the feeling you feel physically threatened by your wife. I do think your pride is threatened by her, though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

jld said:


> I disagree. Why does it matter who orders the food? That is a pride/image issue.
> 
> Nirvana, I don't get the feeling you feel physically threatened by your wife. I do think your pride is threatened by her, though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree it shouldn't matter who orders food. that is not the real issue.

the real issue is there is one person in the marriage who is attacking the other person physically and the other person is being forced to adapt around that.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

jld said:


> I don't think she is. If he takes the lead, though, she will respond in ways he likes.


Do you allow for the possibility that she *may not* respond in ways he likes?

Sure, it's possible. But it hardly seems like a given.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Nirvana,

You need to step up. I'm not going to keep carrying your water on the physical aspect of your marriage. 

Say what's what - and then engage the posters who perceive you as N2's PHYSICAL whipping boy.

I don't believe for one second - that you are physically afraid of N2. 

Any man who loves his wife - has a healthy emotional fear of her. That's not just normal - it is unavoidable. And that's different than physical fear. 





Anon1111 said:


> I agree it shouldn't matter who orders food. that is not the real issue.
> 
> the real issue is there is one person in the marriage who is attacking the other person physically and the other person is being forced to adapt around that.


----------



## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

> Any man who loves his wife - has a healthy emotional fear of her. That's not just normal - it is unavoidable.


MEM, I'm baffled by this. What do you mean?


----------



## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> there's no reason for any guy to be calling your wife outside of work to "congratulate" her. this guy could easily wait until she is in the office. he is looking for an excuse to call her
> 
> if this has happened repeatedly, then your wife has boundary issues in my opinion


I think so too. He could talk to her at work. In my opinion he is trying to be a big hero and a knight in shining armor by giving her advice and stuff.

This happened often in June/July last year but happens rarely now. My wife has a problem of not wanting to offend anyone (except her husband of course). It's not just this guy, it is everyone else including her female friends. She just cannot say no. Her sister is the same way. So they get pushed around.


----------



## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Deidre,
> There is no doubt in my mind that something is seriously wrong - if N2 needs to act out physically on a regular basis.
> 
> Over time, I've gotten the impression that N2 has injured Nirvanas (self described LARGE ego) far more than his chassis (body).
> ...


If you love someone you become vulnerable to them. They have the ability to hurt you. If you get to a point where nothing they do hurts you then you do not love them.

So yes, some things she does (did) hurts me. Like comparing me to her friends husbands on a case by case basis while not looking at what I brought to the table.

I don't think she has destroyed my ego or pride. I have just realized that I need to improve some things about myself that I know needs improving and I am leaving things to happen after that.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> Do you allow for the possibility that she *may not* respond in ways he likes?
> 
> Sure, it's possible. But it hardly seems like a given.


He is already doing it, and she is responding in ways he seems pleased with.

As he works to improve himself, particularly in getting hold of his emotions and not reacting to her, I think her trust in him will increase. He will then be able to effectively address the issues they are having, including the one of physical aggression.


----------



## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

jld said:


> He is working on earning her respect now.
> 
> He also needs to work on his pride issues.



I am working on improving myself actually. If she respects that, then it's good. If not, it is fine (her loss).

One of the big things is I don't get sucked into petty quarrels any more. My mind is occupied on better things.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

nirvana said:


> I am no less the man as I was earlier.


 I would say you are a better man. Good for you! Go, nirvana!


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

N--

there is a contingent of people who will insist that if you are just manly enough, your wife will be a perfect princess.

this is borne out of a fantasy of male omnipotence.

the truth is, you will never be perfect. so if it takes perfection on your end for your wife to remain in reasonable control of herself, then you will fail.

even apart from the perfection issues, you should also question why you should have to try so hard to maintain calm in your household. are you the only one who has personal responsibility?

by all means, take a hard look at yourself. but just because your wife treats you poorly, it does not mean that you deserve it.


----------



## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Nirvana,
> 
> You need to step up. I'm not going to keep carrying your water on the physical aspect of your marriage.
> 
> ...


I am not physically afraid of my wife! Far from it. I am not the type who just cowers and gets beaten up either. I don't strike her or beat her. 
It's okay if some think I am a whipping boy. I know that's not the case. I love my wife and she loves me too, but she has some issues that need identifying and addressing. Like I said, I have also been guilty of escalating fights. I just don't do that anymore. Let's see how this month end goes!


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

nirvana said:


> I think so too. He could talk to her at work. In my opinion he is trying to be a big hero and a knight in shining armor by giving her advice and stuff.
> 
> This happened often in June/July last year but happens rarely now. My wife has a problem of not wanting to offend anyone (except her husband of course). It's not just this guy, it is everyone else including her female friends. She just cannot say no. Her sister is the same way. So they get pushed around.


does she have any agency in this situation with the male co-worker?

why couldn't she be expected to draw a boundary for this guy that it is not OK to call her outside of work?


----------



## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

norajane said:


> MEM, I'm baffled by this. What do you mean?


Not MEM, but perhaps you don't understand how much power you have over your H. When a man loves a woman and takes up the responsibility for her care and security he opens up his heart to her and makes himself vulnerable. When that happens she has the power to break his heart. 

NoraJane, you haven't apparently spent much time reading CWI from the male perspective. The female threads run short for the most part. The male threads can run very long and for months and months. Why do you suppose that is? 

So yeah, for the most part we have a healthy emotional fear of our women.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

jld said:


> He is already doing it, and she is responding in ways he seems pleased with.
> 
> As he works to improve himself, particularly in getting hold of his emotions and not reacting to her, I think her trust in him will increase. He will then be able to effectively address the issues they are having, including the one of physical aggression.


I agree that, in this case (and in many cases) that this seems to be the result.

And I agree that it's the right path for him.

It's just that you seem to believe that it will always work this way in all cases. Which isn't true.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> N--
> 
> there is a contingent of people who will insist that if you are just manly enough, your wife will be a perfect princess.
> 
> ...



Probably.
But I cannot spend my entire life trying to match what she thinks I should be completely. It is impossible and a waste of time and I will hate myself.
Instead I try to get rid of some problems that I want to discard in myself. Anger issues, slightly passive aggressive at times, slightly needy perhaps. I didn't realize I was like that until I read some articles I was like wtf??
So I got down to changing that. It's just been 3 weeks but I am happy at the progress and hope I don't slide back.

As far as maintaining calm in the house, I am just doing my part. I don't want to tell her what to do because it could cause her to escalate things. One cannot fight by oneself and if I keep calm for myself, she has to fight with herself and that is a ridiculous thing to do.

If she likes the new me, then great. Otherwise too bad. All indications are positive though.


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## Celes (Apr 28, 2015)

jld said:


> He is working on earning her respect now.
> 
> He also needs to work on his pride issues.


No woman respects a man she can physically assault with no reprecussions.

All he is doing is giving into her until the day he slips up. And then she will assault him again. 

If this was a woman posting, would we all be patting her on the back for being a more pleasant wife to avoid her husband slapping her around?

I'm not denying he has pride and ego issues. But that's no excuse for her to attack him.


----------



## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> does she have any agency in this situation with the male co-worker?
> 
> why couldn't she be expected to draw a boundary for this guy that it is not OK to call her outside of work?



It's happened twice in the past few months but I am watching. I have to balance this with her career aspirations as she is just back in the work force after being a mom/SAHW for 10+ years. She is a bit low on confidence on that front especially in comparison to her younger sister who always worked and their dad thinks she is the star of the family (he is very shallow). She has to work with him as he is in charge of some important tasks. 

I also don't want to give the impression that I am spying on her by asking about every call she gets from everybody. At some point I need to just trust her. She has not given me any reason not to trust her until now in any big way. Yes, there is a risk but then marriage itself is a big risk!!


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

Celes said:


> No woman respects a man she can physically assault with no reprecussions.
> 
> All he is doing is giving into her until the day he slips up. And then she will assault him again.
> 
> ...


So what are you saying? That I divorce her or call the cops? Or beat her up myself? 
She's herself asked me why I argue with her so much. As an engineer, I am analytical. When I hear something irrational, I question it. Since it bothers her so much, I do not and I let it go. And I do what I want anyway. So she is happy and so am I.

Yes, no excuse for what she did. 

Yes, there is a double standard and women get away with a lot more than men in today;s society. And they still whine and moan about their lot.

So now I do not play my part in getting to the zone where she was getting physical. If I am calm and she still attacks me, then she will pay for it. I have not been in that situation as yet.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> I agree that, in this case (and in many cases) that this seems to be the result.
> 
> And I agree that it's the right path for him.
> 
> It's just that you seem to believe that it will always work this way in all cases. Which isn't true.


I don't think a man's getting hold of his emotions, not blindly reacting to provocation, and working to improve himself will ever _hurt_ him.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

dude, there are additional options besides call the cops or beat her up.

are you doing anything to establish what your boundaries of acceptable behavior are?

do you actually have any boundaries?

honestly, it looks like she can do whatever she wants and your main concern is placating her.

it's OK to say firmly (without anger): I won't tolerate this, this and this. And then to back it up by leaving when she breaks the boundary.

"Leaving" is a spectrum from simply leaving the room or the problematic interaction, to spending the weekend in a hotel all the way to divorce.

I get that you don't want to divorce her. That's fine. But you're essentially teaching her that there is no limit to what you will tolerate from her. So you should not be surprised when she pulls the same sh-t again.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Celes said:


> No woman respects a man she can physically assault with no reprecussions.
> 
> All he is doing is giving into her until the day he slips up. And then she will assault him again.
> 
> ...


This.


----------



## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

If the OP were a woman, and her husband were hitting her, biting her, and kicking her...'once per month,' we'd suggest she leave him. 

You're in an abusive relationship, nirvana...whether you admit it to yourself or not. Many people love their abusers, however. That doesn't change that you're in an abusive relationship. Good luck...


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

jld said:


> I don't think a man's getting hold of his emotions, not blindly reacting to provocation, and working to improve himself will ever _hurt_ him.


this is definitely true.

the disconnect from reality is the assumption that doing this will necessarily alter the behavior of any other person but you.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

N,
Well said.

That is what I expected. 

What causes you intense distress is N2 radiating disapproval at you. And the apex of disapproval is contempt. 

True strength is expressed via transparency. 

I am fairly sure that N2 only gets physical with you when - YOU - choose to respond emotionally to her disapproval. When you choose to escalate - and she is already highly agitated.

I am not being judgemental - merely descriptive. 

Overall I believe you are beginning to climb the mountain of self awareness. This is both a difficult and beautiful journey.





nirvana said:


> I am not physically afraid of my wife! Far from it. I am not the type who just cowers and gets beaten up either. I don't strike her or beat her.
> It's okay if some think I am a whipping boy. I know that's not the case. I love my wife and she loves me too, but she has some issues that need identifying and addressing. Like I said, I have also been guilty of escalating fights. I just don't do that anymore. Let's see how this month end goes!


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Celes said:


> No woman respects a man she can physically assault with no reprecussions.


I have read more than once about women slapping men, and the men responding with a genuine laugh. Those men knew those women could not hurt them. Their efforts were considered amusing.

I bet that response made those women respect them. Who would not respect a man who cannot be thrown off by a woman's emotions?

Honestly, I bet it gave those women _great_ respect for them.

And that is not to say that some women are not a physical threat to some men. Some truly are. But nirvana's wife does not seem to be in that group.



> All he is doing is giving into her until the day he slips up. And then she will assault him again.
> 
> If this was a woman posting, would we all be patting her on the back for being a more pleasant wife to avoid her husband slapping her around?


Nirvana, you are really the only person who can address this. Some people are very concerned that you are a victim of abuse and do not know it. They want you to be safe. It certainly comes from a sincere place.



> I'm not denying he has pride and ego issues. But that's no excuse for her to attack him.


I do not think anyone is excusing her aggression. There are simply two different methods being presented for dealing with it.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> this is definitely true.
> 
> the disconnect from reality is the assumption that doing this will necessarily alter the behavior of any other person but you.


What do we hear all the time here? Some version of, "Change your behavior and your spouse will have to change theirs." 

He is changing, and her responses are changing. I think it is a hopeful start.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I'm a software guy so I'm going binary on this topic.

If I had an affair - I would be physically afraid of M2. That is the unvarnished truth of it.

Sans affair - I find the idea of M2 being physically aggressive - amusing. It just is. Lacking murderous intent - she simply couldn't injure me. 

At risk of projecting - it feels to me like Nirvana is in the same boat. 

Why I focused on the whole disapproval theme. That's his issue. The rest is just a distraction. 






jld said:


> I have read more than once about women slapping men, and the men responding with a genuine laugh. Those men knew those women could not hurt them. Their efforts were considered amusing.
> 
> I bet that response made those women respect them. Who would not respect a man who cannot be thrown off by a woman's emotions?
> 
> ...


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

again, the scenario that Nirvana should really be worried about is not that his wife kicks his @ss, but that they get into a verbal fight, which escalates into her attacking him physically and then her emotional outburst leads her to call the police. at that point, even if Nirvana is a princely macho man, he will not be able to control the situation.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Yes

And at some point he will recognize that her focus on house size/cost and his focus on who orders dinner are identical. They are solely driven by a desire to maximize social status. 




jld said:


> What do we hear all the time here? Some version of, "Change your behavior and your spouse will have to change theirs."
> 
> He is changing, and her responses are changing. I think it is a hopeful start.


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

jld said:


> What do we hear all the time here? Some version of, "Change your behavior and your spouse will have to change theirs."
> 
> He is changing, and her responses are changing. I think it is a hopeful start.


I don't think this is the message we hear all the time here.

I think the message is that you can only change you.

The other person may react differently, but they don't have to.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Fair enough.

Nirvana,
If you feel the need, the script below will do the job.

N: If you strike me and I restrain you
AND
N: You call the police - they will arrest me for DV. The most likely outcome is I lose my job and we ALL go to the poor house.

I've never bruised M2 - never needed to. 

I've left my hand print on her azz - but only because she has a deathly allergy to saying: uncle




Anon1111 said:


> again, the scenario that Nirvana should really be worried about is not that his wife kicks his @ss, but that they get into a verbal fight, which escalates into her attacking him physically and then her emotional outburst leads her to call the police. at that point, even if Nirvana is a princely macho man, he will not be able to control the situation.


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> Nirvana,
> If you feel the need, the script below will do the job.
> ...


I think it's a good idea to lay out for her what could happen in these types of situations in the way you describe, but given what Nirvana has described, I wouldn't count on his wife being rational enough to make this calculation in the heat of the moment, at least not at this point.

I would still remove myself from the house if she started to spin out of control PRIOR to her getting physical.


----------



## DrSher (Jul 17, 2016)

This is sooooooooo easy to deal with.

Let her hit you hard, maybe make nose bleed and then you call 911 (from outside house). 

Follow up with restraining order and kick her out.

But of course this is "mean" according to feminists. Bend over boy. Next she'll bring a strap on.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I admit of having a serious bias here.

I'll call it the 'white Jewish guys' guide to the universe. 

1. I don't need to - and am allergic to leaving a mark on M2
2. If the cops show up - which they never have - I am calm and mildly embarrassed that M2 has gone 5150

If they are obligated by process to cuff me - so what. It will make for a terrific story. 

Is anything really gonna happen? Gosh - maybe - odds are equivalent to me gettin hit by lightening. 

That said - my only advice on this topic is: DO NOT bruise your wife.

Size matters 



Anon1111 said:


> I think it's a good idea to lay out for her what could happen in these types of situations in the way you describe, but given what Nirvana has described, I wouldn't count on his wife being rational enough to make this calculation in the heat of the moment, at least not at this point.
> 
> I would still remove myself from the house if she started to spin out of control PRIOR to her getting physical.


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

jld said:


> I have read more than once about women slapping men, and the men responding with a genuine laugh. Those men knew those women could not hurt them. Their efforts were considered amusing.
> 
> I bet that response made those women respect them. Who would not respect a man who cannot be thrown off by a woman's emotions?
> 
> Honestly, I bet it gave those women _great_ respect for them.


Usually my response to women who physically assault me is to cut them out of my life. I wouldn't know or care if they respect me after that.


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> I admit of having a serious bias here.
> 
> I'll call it the 'white Jewish guys' guide to the universe.
> 
> ...


I guess I am just more risk averse.

When dealing with someone who is out of control, I don't assume I can control the situation.

When the risk of the situation spinning out of control is catastrophic, it is best in my view to simply check out of the game.

I would personally consider getting cuffed to be a catastrophic event.

Even if it went no further than that, your reputation would be ruined.


----------



## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

The sad thing about some of the comments here is that some of you feel an adult woman is not capable of taking responsibility for her actions. I'm considered petite, but if I hit a guy, I should be held responsible for my actions. It's not a joke when women hit men. It's not a joke when women break the law. If men are held responsible, so should women. 

It isn't about if a woman can severely hurt you or not, and women can if they use a weapon. But, will some of you pass that off as...well, that guy must have done something to deserve it. It's really sad and actually a little scary, that some of you are condoning women hitting men in relationships. Because...we're weaker, or something. 

Abuse is abuse, and you're in a really effed up relationship, NOT A LOVING ONE...if your spouse is hitting/biting/kicking you on a regular basis. I was once in an abusive relationship and people tell themselves things to avoid having to make hard decisions, but if it was wrong for a guy to hit me, it's wrong for me to hit a guy. 

And to the poster who said a woman would respect him. No woman anywhere, will respect a guy who stays with her, takes the abuse and laughs it off. Like the OP's wife, she is not respectful of nirvana, that's why she keeps doing it.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

jld said:


> No, I would not want my sons to be with women who regularly physically aggressed them. Honestly, if those women felt the need to do that with my sons, I would not want that situation to continue for those gals, either. There are more compatible matches out there for both.
> 
> I would also not want my daughter with a man with the sort of ego issues nirvana has, or who viewed her through the physical lens that nirvana views his wife, or women in general. Neither side here, imo, has a clean bill of psychological health.
> 
> ...


I don't see him as a victim, because he accepts it. He is being abused, but seems okay with it, excuses it...this is very typical of people who are in abusive relationships.

His culture doesn't matter, I know Indian women, they aren't hitting their husbands. 

My thought about the police is that to me, it's not necessary if you tell the abuser...I'm going to leave you, if you continue. If that doesn't stop the abuse, then separation should take place. On an emotional level, to be struck on a monthly basis is not healthy for a man or a woman in a relationship. Even if he has no physical after effects, this constant and steady dose of abuse, regardless of his wife's reasons, will erode nirvana's self esteem. But, abuse is an interesting thing...usually people with low self esteem accept abuse, like I once did. But, one can learn to respect him/herself, and never turn back to a life of being with an abuser.

If he insists on staying married, counseling for his wife would be necessary. And if she's that out of control, maybe she needs some serious meds to 'control' her PMS. But, to let it go, and just be hit every month...that's no way for anyone to live. We wouldn't do this to a pet of ours, why should we accept such crap from spouses?


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> dude, there are additional options besides call the cops or beat her up.
> 
> are you doing anything to establish what your boundaries of acceptable behavior are?
> 
> ...


Every time she's gotten violent (handful, it's not very often), it has been after a back and forth argument with anger on both sides. I can't think of even one time when I was calm and she just came and attacked me. 
So we are in new territory here. I don't think she has done things that warrant me to leave her. Hitting is gray area and I would if she was a violent person in general. My main concern is that she is irritable and disagreeable during her PMS and if I join in, she sometimes gets violent. 

I have told her clearly not to touch me. The only thing left to do is to call the cops and that will destroy the relationship forever.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

*Deidre* said:


> If the OP were a woman, and her husband were hitting her, biting her, and kicking her...'once per month,' we'd suggest she leave him.
> 
> You're in an abusive relationship, nirvana...whether you admit it to yourself or not. Many people love their abusers, however. That doesn't change that you're in an abusive relationship. Good luck...


Well, we can put any label we want. She would say that I am being an abuser because "you made fun of me when I was a stay at home mom". If you read my other threads, you would see that she had a useless degree when we got married. She is intelligent and I knew it so I put down a half of my annual paycheck to get her into a Masters program in a good career field. She did well with a 4.0 GPA. Then she got pregnant and after 10 years was not showing any signs of taking up a job. She would just take class after class after class until I got fed up and told her to stop it and go and get a job. Yes, I was nasty a bit, but then I am that way to my son also when I see him wasting his life away. I am his dad after all. I am her husband and I want to see her happy and successful.

She is happy today with a good career, decent money, and feels fulfilled. Of course she gives me little credit but then that's the way everyone in her family is. It's all I I I and no thank you. During fights she moans about how "abusive" I was but when she is sane again does not thank me for pushing her to reach her goals.

So what next do you suggest? I am curious.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> N,
> Well said.
> 
> That is what I expected.
> ...



There is another thing I have talked about in another thread.
We have some toxic friends and the wife gloats about her husbands "success". He has a fancy title, but a low salary. They only recently moved into a SFH while we got one many years ago. I have no debt other than 40% of the home. This "successful" husband is drowning in it. Outwardly he looks rich but now everyone knows the details. I am just waiting to see what they put down on their new house which is bigger than ours. This info is public and will be updated online soon.
Anyway, for years she felt inferior and that her husband was not good enough compared to this fellow. But I had my constraints and some bad luck. Now things are turning and I am interviewing for a job at a higher level and I hope to get it. Things look good.

Women need to feel that their husbands are doing well career wise. I don't know about Western women but this is big for Indian women. You will see many discussing their husbands jobs and sizing each other up that way. Now that my wife works and I can take the risks I could not earlier, I will be doing just that.

So to respond to your post, yes, she gets physical only when I join in and provoke her (sorry to say). It is still wrong for her to hit me but now I don't make it easy for her.

Besides that, I no longer behave needy, whiny, don't blame her shortcomings (poor house keeper, filthy car...). I can sometimes see her expect me to blame her and it just does not come and she seems surprised. It's actually fun to see this!

The best part is I am not bursting inside to say it. I feel at peace. I hope this lasts.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

jld said:


> What do we hear all the time here? Some version of, "Change your behavior and your spouse will have to change theirs."
> 
> He is changing, and her responses are changing. I think it is a hopeful start.


Yes, I am changing for myself. Not for her.
Maybe this is one of those mid life crisis things? 
I've spent years being angry. Let's change course.

If she wants to come along for the ride great. If not...


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> I'm a software guy so I'm going binary on this topic.
> 
> If I had an affair - I would be physically afraid of M2. That is the unvarnished truth of it.
> 
> ...



ha ha I am a software guy too! I like to analyze everything which drives the wife crazy.
Many women are quite irrational and I think it gets worse during PMS. She expects me to just listen when she has these great ideas and I just cannot shut up. That drives her crazy when I add logic to the conversation. These days I just listen and make appropriate noises. And I do what ever I deem fit.
She is happy, and I am happy.

Yes, she cannot hurt me unless she shoots me. We don't have a gun. She can knife me, but she won't do that. She just punches and bites, no weapons.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> again, the scenario that Nirvana should really be worried about is not that his wife kicks his @ss, but that they get into a verbal fight, which escalates into her attacking him physically and then her emotional outburst leads her to call the police. at that point, even if Nirvana is a princely macho man, he will not be able to control the situation.


Possible but improbable.

You must remember that we are Indian from India. If she calls the cops on me, and it gets out, she will look bad to our friends regardless of who did what. This will be the talk of the Indian community around. She values her reputation.

The only time she will do this is I am a drunk alcoholic who beats his wife regularly and she needs me gone. That is not the case. Far from it. She is lucky to get a level headed non-show-off husband like myself. I bet she knows it deep down. She will not say it and lose a bargaining chip maybe? So many times I have heard her repeat whatever plan/strategy I have made up and tell others as her own. I chuckle.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

nirvana said:


> Well, we can put any label we want. She would say that I am being an abuser because "you made fun of me when I was a stay at home mom". If you read my other threads, you would see that she had a useless degree when we got married. She is intelligent and I knew it so I put down a half of my annual paycheck to get her into a Masters program in a good career field. She did well with a 4.0 GPA. Then she got pregnant and after 10 years was not showing any signs of taking up a job. She would just take class after class after class until I got fed up and told her to stop it and go and get a job. Yes, I was nasty a bit, but then I am that way to my son also when I see him wasting his life away. I am his dad after all. I am her husband and I want to see her happy and successful.
> 
> She is happy today with a good career, decent money, and feels fulfilled. Of course she gives me little credit but then that's the way everyone in her family is. It's all I I I and no thank you. During fights she moans about how "abusive" I was but when she is sane again does not thank me for pushing her to reach her goals.
> 
> So what next do you suggest? I am curious.


Some of your relationship sounds like basic relationship type arguments. I've never been married, but I've dealt with conflicts in relationships, and some of it sounds typical. But, the violence is not typical. Calling you abusive on her end, sounds manipulative, because what you are doing, isn't abusive. I think you married a narcissist, and sounds like she comes from a family of them. 

What I would suggest since you're asking, is do some research on narcissistic personality disorder, because it will help you deal with her, in this marriage. Narcissists aren't really capable of self reflection, it's all about them, their needs, their lives. She may love you, but only in terms of what you can do for her. That's how narcissists love. You don't sound like a narcissist, you sound like an empath, someone who is very empathetic and shows emotions. Empaths and narcissists are often together in relationships, because two narcissists would probably self combust. lol

I'd recommend doing that, because it will help you see what you're dealing with. This isn't about PMS or angry outbursts, your wife's behavior should be unacceptable to you, or eventually, you will wake up one day and wonder what happened to your life. You seem like a super nice guy, I hope things get better. 

There's my advice.  ((prayers and hugs))


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

*Deidre* said:


> Some of your relationship sounds like basic relationship type arguments. I've never been married, but I've dealt with conflicts in relationships, and some of it sounds typical. But, the violence is not typical. Calling you abusive on her end, sounds manipulative, because what you are doing, isn't abusive. I think you married a narcissist, and sounds like she comes from a family of them.
> 
> What I would suggest since you're asking, is do some research on narcissistic personality disorder, because it will help you deal with her, in this marriage. Narcissists aren't really capable of self reflection, it's all about them, their needs, their lives. She may love you, but only in terms of what you can do for her. That's how narcissists love. You don't sound like a narcissist, you sound like an empath, someone who is very empathetic and shows emotions. Empaths and narcissists are often together in relationships, because two narcissists would probably self combust. lol
> 
> ...


Deidre, when you get married and have kids, you will see a whole new set of issues to deal with! You cannot just leave like that. Things get infinitely complex. It is much easier to leave a bf/gf who sometimes hits. All things considered, my wife is quite a catch. She is pretty, maintains her figure (thank God, most Indian women late 30s are blimps), intelligent, hard working, has a career looking up, loves the kids, loves me. The only problem is she does not show it as I would like her to. She takes care of my health, monitors what I eat (I have a weakness for junk food and sugary drinks and she gives me the evil eye). I just want her to be my girl friend as well!!  She is so stuck into being a mom that she's forgotten to be a wife/lover. Maybe it's my fault, I was too stuffy earlier. I cannot change the past, but I want to improve the future.

Yes, I think she is a narcissist or close to it. Her sister and father are the same way too. Manipulation comes easy. They even take credit for things that they had 1% to do and others have 99%. 

But that is the hand I've been dealt. In my early 40s, I don't feel like looking for another wife and complicate things for our kids. No relationship is 100% perfect. 

So whatever epiphany I've had is a big change for me personally. I have been a volatile character all my life and I feel like moving away. I am even trying to reach out and mend relations with some people who moved away from me for god knows what reasons!


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

nirvana said:


> Deidre, when you get married and have kids, you will see a whole new set of issues to deal with! You cannot just leave like that. Things get infinitely complex. It is much easier to leave a bf/gf who sometimes hits. All things considered, my wife is quite a catch. She is pretty, maintains her figure (thank God, most Indian women late 30s are blimps), intelligent, hard working, has a career looking up, loves the kids, loves me. The only problem is she does not show it as I would like her to. She takes care of my health, monitors what I eat (I have a weakness for junk food and sugary drinks and she gives me the evil eye). I just want her to be my girl friend as well!!  She is so stuck into being a mom that she's forgotten to be a wife/lover. Maybe it's my fault, I was too stuffy earlier. I cannot change the past, but I want to improve the future.
> 
> Yes, I think she is a narcissist or close to it. Her sister and father are the same way too. Manipulation comes easy. They even take credit for things that they had 1% to do and others have 99%.
> 
> ...


But abuse isn't love. No matter what we tell ourselves, it isn't.  So if/when I marry someday, and my future husband hits me, it will be over. No way will I accept a guy hitting me. I think though that abuse tends to show itself if you date the person long enough - don't marry an abusive person, because it won't change. I realize that marriage complicates things, but it's not a prison, and it will never be that for me. I do hope you find deeper happiness, and that she treats you better.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

*Deidre* said:


> I don't see him as a victim, because he accepts it. He is being abused, but seems okay with it, excuses it...this is very typical of people who are in abusive relationships.
> 
> *His culture doesn't matter, I know Indian women, they aren't hitting their husbands. *
> 
> ...


Culture is a big factor. I know a lot of Indian guys because I lived there for 4 years. My Western colleagues and I had to stop inviting our Indian colleagues for beer after work. It would not be uncommon that they would get home and their wives would yell and often punch them when they realized they smelled alcohol. The South of India is very conservative and alcohol is a big no no. 

Now, when I looked at my Indian colleagues who told me they were punched or slapped the night before by their wives, they did not show any physical marks. I would not say the same when a guy punched his wife. Much more damage in that case.

So, I have heard several times of wives hitting their husbands, husband's mothers hitting their daughter in laws.

However, I am not saying Indian women are abusing their husbands. There is plenty of wife beating. Physical violence is pretty common.

Nirvana is not abused. He just has a wife that gets frustrated and becomes a little physical. He, like she, will not call the cops or even divorce (unless it gets really bad) because their social status will take a big hit, especially if they are close to their Indian community.

Applying Western standards to non Western cultures can be dangerous and misleading.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Why I focused on the whole disapproval theme. That's his issue. The rest is just a distraction.


Until you have to explain to your team members that you fell in the rose bushes for the third time in a month.

This did happen to my buddy. He divorced her after it got old.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Duguesclin said:


> Nirvana is not abused. He just has a wife that gets frustrated and becomes a little physical.
> : : : : :
> Applying Western standards to non Western cultures can be dangerous and misleading.


These are laws, not cultural standards. In China, the age of consent is 14. Dot dot dot.


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## rileyawes (Jun 28, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> And that ^^ is why women get away with abusing men. Abuse is abuse, no matter who is administering it. I feel sorry for some of you guys, you really have been brainwashed somewhere along the line to thinking that accepting abuse from a woman is okay because she is smaller than you. Or weaker. Or whatever.
> 
> Physically abusive women are also emotionally abusive. Manipulative. Just like abusive men. And these types of women will get men to hit them, so they can call the police. Abuse is abuse, no matter the gender.


No one can "get" someone else to hit them. You can goad or provoke someone, but short of grabbing their hand and hitting yourself, you can't make someone hit you. Nirvana can push or restrain his wife without being violent or hitting her. He doesn't seem frightened of his wife, or like she's actually hurting him. He is saying that he thinks she hits him because her period, not that she is using it as an excuse. If he really thinks it's hormonal, he should suggest medication to see if it works, yes. It might mitigate the intensity of her emotions. 

That is not to say her emotions are causing her to hit him. He should absolutely tell her to stop, and that he won't accept it. He should leave if he wants to. He should call the police if she seriously injures him, or if he's afraid that she might. He doesn't have to let himself get hit, but he seems reluctant to leave her or take any decisive action. I think nirvana is taking responsibility for her behavior (walking on eggshells) and I wouldn't stay married to her were I him.


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## rileyawes (Jun 28, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> The sad thing about some of the comments here is that some of you feel an adult woman is not capable of taking responsibility for her actions. I'm considered petite, but if I hit a guy, I should be held responsible for my actions. It's not a joke when women hit men. It's not a joke when women break the law. If men are held responsible, so should women.
> 
> It isn't about if a woman can severely hurt you or not, and women can if they use a weapon. But, will some of you pass that off as...well, that guy must have done something to deserve it. It's really sad and actually a little scary, that some of you are condoning women hitting men in relationships. Because...we're weaker, or something.
> 
> ...


The only person who is even insinuating that the wife is not responsible for her actions is the OP. And yeah, that's sad. He shouldn't be making excuses for her, or taking responsibility for her hitting him. He has also said that he is not physically afraid of her. Other male posters have said that their wives are not large enough to physically hurt them, not that they're not responsible for their actions if they hit them. I think you're overreacting a little bit. Ideally, no one would ever be hit, but nirvana's isn't a drastic situation. He hasn't been injured and he's not afraid that he will be. It does make me feel pretty sad that his strategy for not getting hit is to be more agreeable, and not to set firm boundaries, or to leave.


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## rileyawes (Jun 28, 2016)

nirvana said:


> Every time she's gotten violent (handful, it's not very often), it has been after a back and forth argument with anger on both sides. I can't think of even one time when I was calm and she just came and attacked me.
> So we are in new territory here. I don't think she has done things that warrant me to leave her. Hitting is gray area and I would if she was a violent person in general. My main concern is that she is irritable and disagreeable during her PMS and if I join in, she sometimes gets violent.
> 
> I have told her clearly not to touch me. The only thing left to do is to call the cops and that will destroy the relationship forever.


What has happened when you've told her not to touch you? Has this been during your arguments, or during calm moments? What does she say? Does this usually stop her?

I agree that you should give her clear boundaries. If she can't control her temper, you will leave the room, or leave the house for a period of time. Nothing you do can make her hit you! Even if you're yelling at her, making fun of her for being a stay-at-home mom, or criticizing her housekeeping. I think you really need to get that through your head. From what I've heard, "you shouldn't get me so mad" is a pretty classic abuser justification. "If you only did what I told you..." I'm not saying your wife is abusing you, but her behavior is unacceptable, and could certainly escalate, especially if you don't address it. She is making a choice to hit you each time, and she could just as easily make the choice to not hit you, just like you make the choice not to escalate the arguments. In my opinion, it's harder to keep from making a verbal retort during an argument than it is not to hit or bite someone. She's only doing it because she's getting away with it.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Nirvana,
Absolutely agree with this.  That said - you my man - have bought into this social status thing. 

This next bit - you can either accept or reject at your peril.

M2 - who has high standards and truly knows what matters - would take one (1) Dug over ten (10) MEM's during the period that MEM out earned Dug by at least a factor of 3. 

During that timeframe - I was tense and distracted beyond measure. 

You are grossly over weighting social status and under weighting the stuff that truly matters.





nirvana said:


> If you love someone you become vulnerable to them. They have the ability to hurt you. If you get to a point where nothing they do hurts you then you do not love them.
> 
> So yes, some things she does (did) hurts me. Like comparing me to her friends husbands on a case by case basis while not looking at what I brought to the table.
> 
> I don't think she has destroyed my ego or pride. I have just realized that I need to improve some things about myself that I know needs improving and I am leaving things to happen after that.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

It's abuse. Many people claim that certain things are acceptable in their culture, religion, etc...it's still abuse. Hitting, biting and kicking someone is wrong, no matter how you excuse it. It's funny, if a stranger were to hit you say in the mall, you'd report it to the police. If your spouse hits you, for some of you, there's a myriad of reasons as to why they should be excused or it.

I'm sorry, don't see eye to eye with some of you. We'll have to agree to disagree.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

nirvana said:


> I have told her clearly not to touch me. The only thing left to do is to call the cops and that will destroy the relationship forever.


Or...get her to finally respect you.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

turnera said:


> Or...get her to finally respect you.


I think that is what he is finally doing.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

*Deidre* said:


> It's abuse. Many people claim that certain things are acceptable in their culture, religion, etc...it's still abuse. Hitting, biting and kicking someone is wrong, no matter how you excuse it. It's funny, if a stranger were to hit you say in the mall, you'd report it to the police. If your spouse hits you, for some of you, there's a myriad of reasons as to why they should be excused or it.
> 
> I'm sorry, don't see eye to eye with some of you. We'll have to agree to disagree.


I don't think anyone has said it is okay. They are just trying to give you some perspective on it.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

nirvana said:


> Every time she's gotten violent (handful, it's not very often), it has been after a back and forth argument with anger on both sides. I can't think of even one time when I was calm and she just came and attacked me.
> So we are in new territory here. I don't think she has done things that warrant me to leave her. Hitting is gray area and I would if she was a violent person in general. My main concern is that she is irritable and disagreeable during her PMS and if I join in, she sometimes gets violent.
> 
> I have told her clearly not to touch me. The only thing left to do is to call the cops and that will destroy the relationship forever.


OK, so like a lot of these situations, there is blame on both sides. I get that.

Your first instinct is to look at what you are doing wrong. I think that is very positive.

My point is that-- even as you do this-- you can't ignore the other side of the equation.

You can control your side of the street, but it is also necessary for her to control her side of the street.

If you adopt an attitude that "I must do whatever it takes to keep her calm," then you are not really addressing the full scope of the problem.

In fact, this type of attitude will simply perpetuate the problem.

If you don't really get this, then I would say one of the major aspects of working on yourself needs to be developing some self respect.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I'll make sure to quote JLD if I ever decide to treat my wife as a frustrated husband from her own culture would 

It don't work this way folks.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> nirvana said:
> 
> 
> > Every time she's gotten violent (handful, it's not very often), it has been after a back and forth argument with anger on both sides. I can't think of even one time when I was calm and she just came and attacked me.
> ...


I agree with this! That being said, there is a BUT.

But----- if nirvana plans on staying in the marriage no matter what, isn't this his only option, really? He can't make her choose to be responsible for her control.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

nirvana said:


> Well, we can put any label we want. She would say that I am being an abuser because "you made fun of me when I was a stay at home mom". If you read my other threads, you would see that she had a useless degree when we got married. She is intelligent and I knew it so I put down a half of my annual paycheck to get her into a Masters program in a good career field. She did well with a 4.0 GPA. Then she got pregnant and after 10 years was not showing any signs of taking up a job. She would just take class after class after class until I got fed up and told her to stop it and go and get a job. Yes, I was nasty a bit, but then I am that way to my son also when I see him wasting his life away. I am his dad after all. I am her husband and I want to see her happy and successful.
> 
> She is happy today with a good career, decent money, and feels fulfilled. Of course she gives me little credit but then that's the way everyone in her family is. It's all I I I and no thank you. During fights she moans about how "abusive" I was but when she is sane again does not thank me for pushing her to reach her goals.
> 
> So what next do you suggest? I am curious.


again, I want to highlight for you how easy it is for her to throw the "abusive" label at you and also contrast how meaningful this label is when applied to men vs women

clearly, a great many people are not disturbed by an abusive woman (e.g., your wife), but these same people ARE very disturbed by an "abusive" man.

you will not come out OK if you get into a dispute as to who is really "abusive," even if the facts are on your side.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> OK, so like a lot of these situations, there is blame on both sides. I get that.
> 
> Your first instinct is to look at what you are doing wrong. I think that is very positive.
> 
> ...


He is not doing that. 

Honestly, the guy has barely begun taking emotional responsibility for his marriage and some here are terrified he will lose himself to this woman. It's not going to happen. 

Lots of people seem to be projecting.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> I'll make sure to quote JLD if I ever decide to treat my wife as a frustrated husband from her own culture would
> 
> It don't work this way folks.


That is WH she married you, and not someone from her country.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

nirvana said:


> ha ha I am a software guy too! I like to analyze everything which drives the wife crazy.
> Many women are quite irrational and I think it gets worse during PMS. She expects me to just listen when she has these great ideas and I just cannot shut up. That drives her crazy when I add logic to the conversation. These days I just listen and make appropriate noises. And I do what ever I deem fit.
> She is happy, and I am happy.


this is perfect.

all you need to do is sit there and listen. you don't need to convince her she's wrong or that you're right. 

whatever she says, you'll make you own decision anyway.

she probably won't even care what you decide about anything as long as she feels she was heard.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> That is WH she married you, and not someone from her country.


True. She would not have lasted three rounds on the ring with a compatriot... A fact that eludes her. Apparently her own sister's marital escapades and subsequent demise never accounted for much.

Which reminds me... Nirvana, are her friends in similar socioeconomic marriages? Is she getting role mode information locally or from the motherland?


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

nirvana said:


> Possible but improbable.
> 
> You must remember that we are Indian from India. If she calls the cops on me, and it gets out, she will look bad to our friends regardless of who did what. This will be the talk of the Indian community around. She values her reputation.


OK, you know her better than us, obviously.

Obviously, you are in the USA now so the rules aren't exactly the same.

Even if you're not worried about her calling the cops, I think removing yourself when she is having a psycho moment is a good move. 

it shows her there is a limit to what you will tolerate from her and also eliminates the chance that you will lose your cool


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

Duguesclin said:


> Culture is a big factor. I know a lot of Indian guys because I lived there for 4 years. My Western colleagues and I had to stop inviting our Indian colleagues for beer after work. It would not be uncommon that they would get home and their wives would yell and often punch them when they realized they smelled alcohol. The South of India is very conservative and alcohol is a big no no.
> 
> Now, when I looked at my Indian colleagues who told me they were punched or slapped the night before by their wives, they did not show any physical marks. I would not say the same when a guy punched his wife. Much more damage in that case.
> 
> ...


I am from the southern part of India as well and I eat meat, drink alcohol, do everything within limits. This never was a problem. Even my dad and FIL drink alcohol (within limits). Bangalore in the south has the largest number of pubs/bars in India. The real conservative city is Chennai.

Wife beating isn't a problem just in India, it occurs everywhere. Even in the US it is quite common. 

As Dug says, I also do not believe that I am abused. My wife doesn't have me under her thumb. The only times she gets physical is in a fight and when we both argue and let it escalate quite a bit. Never otherwise.

Indian families are very close knit and it will take a lot for people to divorce. I think that is a good thing. All couples fight and argue and if people start divorcing for that, there would be a societal crisis. Divorce should not be taken lightly. It gets very very hard to divorce once kids arrive. Things are not as easy in practice as they seem in theory.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

jld said:


> I have read more than once about women slapping men, and the men responding with a genuine laugh. Those men knew those women could not hurt them. Their efforts were considered amusing.
> 
> I bet that response made those women respect them. Who would not respect a man who cannot be thrown off by a woman's emotions?
> 
> ...


The last time my wife struck me, I made it clear that next time there would be police involvement.

That was 15 months ago. It had become something that happened 3-5 times per year or thereabouts. I believe she took me seriously, because it has not happened since.

I do not physically fear my wife in any way, shape or form. However, under no circumstances will I tolerate my wife thinking it is okay to strike me any more. Period.

If she can't handle that, she knows where she can find the door.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

turnera said:


> Or...get her to finally respect you.


2 things I am working on. I must emphasize again that I am doing this for myself first. 

1. Stay away from silly arguments that do not really matter. Just walk away. The thing with her is that she likes the feeling of 'winning' even if she does not really 'win'. So she is okay if I just stay silent when she says something even if I do as I please later on. It's actually a win-win for both if I walk away from majority of the arguments.

2. Focus on career. I am doing well enough and make 6 figures and have been since 2005. But I need to be doing better. I have been making many lateral moves for various reasons and I think it is time to take some risks and move up. In other words, I need a glamor job with a fancy title and some more money too. Some things are in the works so let's see what happens.

(1) would reduce the negative energy in her. I see it happen already. One sign is she turns towards me while sleeping on a more regular basis. Like last night. (2) would increase my confidence which would make me more attractive to her and she also likes it if her husband is more successful (an Indian woman thing).


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> OK, so like a lot of these situations, there is blame on both sides. I get that.
> 
> Your first instinct is to look at what you are doing wrong. I think that is very positive.
> 
> ...


It's more like "I don't want to waste my time with silly meaningless arguments, so I will walk away". I am not doing this for her, I am doing this for myself. I feel happier! To my wife, a discussion/analysis seems like I am arguing and has negative feelings. To me, it is just a discussion. In my experience many Indian women are that way. If I disagree, they think I don't like them. I will do what I want and what is right anyway.

In other words, now I am picking my battles more carefully. Even when I disagree, I say it once and not drag the issue and explain it in different ways like earlier. She grumbles for a few minutes and then forgets. If I drag it, it gets worse and she feels miserable and makes my life miserable as well. Less negative energy, more nirvana.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

nirvana said:


> Deidre, when you get married and have kids, you will see a whole new set of issues to deal with! You cannot just leave like that. Things get infinitely complex.


this is an excuse, man. it's actually very simple. treat people with respect and expect that others will treat you with respect. nothing more to it than that.



nirvana said:


> It is much easier to leave a bf/gf who sometimes hits. All things considered, my wife is quite a catch. She is pretty, maintains her figure (thank God, most Indian women late 30s are blimps), intelligent, hard working, has a career looking up, loves the kids, loves me. The only problem is she does not show it as I would like her to. She takes care of my health, monitors what I eat (I have a weakness for junk food and sugary drinks and she gives me the evil eye). I just want her to be my girl friend as well!!  She is so stuck into being a mom that she's forgotten to be a wife/lover. Maybe it's my fault, I was too stuffy earlier. I cannot change the past, but I want to improve the future..


hate to break it to you, but your wife is not a catch for you right now. maybe to some other guy she would be, but the way she treats you is not high on the scale.

if you were just dating and she treated you like this, would you ever marry her?

you've clearly put her up on a pedestal. 

basically, your standard seems to be any woman who makes it to late 30s without getting fat is a catch.

when you have low expectations, you get poor results.



nirvana said:


> Yes, I think she is a narcissist or close to it. Her sister and father are the same way too. Manipulation comes easy. They even take credit for things that they had 1% to do and others have 99%.


what happens when people don't allow themselves to be manipulated?



nirvana said:


> But that is the hand I've been dealt.


wrong. you're choosing to tolerate it.



nirvana said:


> In my early 40s, I don't feel like looking for another wife and complicate things for our kids. No relationship is 100% perfect.


you don't need to go looking for another wife. you need to expect more from yourself AND from your current wife. 

and you need to know personally that you can walk away from her if it becomes necessary. 

if you don't want to accept that, then the alternative is just to accept that you'll tolerate however she treats you. 

it's really one or the other. 

that sucks for your kids, but it's not your fault if your wife turns out to be THAT self centered that she can't respect you.

or you can just be totally passive and take whatever you get. that's a real option too and I'm not knocking it.

but if you go down that path it will be your choice and you can't blame her for that.



nirvana said:


> So whatever epiphany I've had is a big change for me personally. I have been a volatile character all my life and I feel like moving away. I am even trying to reach out and mend relations with some people who moved away from me for god knows what reasons.


this is really, really good. keep self reflecting.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Nirvana,
> Absolutely agree with this. That said - you my man - have bought into this social status thing.
> 
> This next bit - you can either accept or reject at your peril.
> ...


how cool would it be if Nirvana just shrugged his shoulders and smiled every time his wife tried to play the social status game with him?

what if he demonstrated to her without anger or resentment how pointless and silly the whole concept is?


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

jld said:


> He is not doing that.
> 
> Honestly, the guy has barely begun taking emotional responsibility for his marriage and some here are terrified he will lose himself to this woman. It's not going to happen.
> 
> Lots of people seem to be projecting.


Yes, I have too much of an ego to become a whipped doormat.  That said, I keep my feet firmly on the ground. The problem started when this toxic woman friend of my wife's started to tell her how her awesome husband did everything and she got to relax, shop and have fun. My immature wife fell for it. Her eyes have opened in recent times.

So that will never happen. If it did, she would lose all respect for me. And worse, I would hate myself.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> how cool would it be if Nirvana just shrugged his shoulders and smiled every time his wife tried to play the social status game with him?
> 
> what if he demonstrated to her without anger or resentment how pointless and silly the whole concept is?


That's not how it works in immigrant families. By rejecting the social status drivers you invalidate Mrs. Nirvana's position and overall mindset.

Signed: Honorary Desi


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

nirvana said:


> I am from the southern part of India as well and I eat meat, drink alcohol, do everything within limits. This never was a problem. Even my dad and FIL drink alcohol (within limits). Bangalore in the south has the largest number of pubs/bars in India. *The real conservative city is Chennai.*
> 
> Wife beating isn't a problem just in India, it occurs everywhere. Even in the US it is quite common.
> 
> ...


Chennai is where we were the last 2 1/2 years of our stay. One of my neighbors there said Chennai is where people go to die. 

Didn't one of the Indian politicians say that 70% of wives are beaten in India?

When we were in Pondi, a French woman told me she thought it was 80%.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> this is perfect.
> 
> all you need to do is sit there and listen. you don't need to convince her she's wrong or that you're right.
> 
> ...


Exactly!
It does not make sense to me because to me, when I "win", it means that my view needs to be implemented. Because I won. She does not look at it the same way. So all it takes is some self-control on my part.

Example from this morning:
We were discussing December today and what to do with the kids since they are off from school and we are working. Her answer was "we go on vacation!". I said we are going on vacation for 3 weeks in Nov so we won't have any days off left. 
She: It was just an idea.
Me (thinking): Why give ideas that are not implementable and you know it??
Me (saying): <nothing>

So her idea was meaningless, but I just let it slide instead of rubbing it in like earlier. If I did, she would hear it is "you are stupid. you can't even give me a proper idea" and that would have set her off.
Now she happy, me happy.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> I'm a software guy so I'm going binary on this topic.
> 
> If I had an affair - I would be physically afraid of M2. That is the unvarnished truth of it.
> 
> ...


Conversely, there is something to be said for not wanting to subject yourself to that form of drama. I won't live in that type of environment.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> how cool would it be if Nirvana just shrugged his shoulders and smiled every time his wife tried to play the social status game with him?
> 
> what if he demonstrated to her without anger or resentment how pointless and silly the whole concept is?


No I disagree. I don't play into this social status game though my wife has made my life miserable because of it.

I don't buy any fancy toys unless I can afford it and feel comfortable. As an example I drove my 17 year old Honda with windows falling off and paint chipping until I felt comfortable to buy a fancy German car (at the lower end which I could afford). BTW, I've paid it off in 1 year. I really don't care what people around think of me. They probably think I am a miser, not very successful since I don't care about brand name clothes and don't gloat.

I think women being more of social creatures buy into this more than men do. I know of many cases in the Indian community here where the wife wants a fancy car and the husband is trying to distract her. The husbands discuss when we all meet! "Arre yaar... my wife has been demanding this MDX/X5/Merc..."!

I just think that earlier I did not handle her well enough. Instead of saying no, I wasted time explaining and sometimes getting annoyed.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> Conversely, there is something to be said for not wanting to subject yourself to that form of drama. I won't live in that type of environment.


Your context is not the same as nirvana's, far.

I do wish you could have influence over your wife without resorting to threats of calling the police. Have you talked with your wife about that recently, how she feels about the threat, and if either of you thinks it is still necessary?

ETA: You can pm if you think this might be a t/j.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

jld said:


> Chennai is where we were the last 2 1/2 years of our stay. One of my neighbors there said Chennai is where people go to die.
> 
> Didn't one of the Indian politicians say that 70% of wives are beaten in India?
> 
> When we were in Pondi, a French woman told me she thought it was 80%.


I've been 2 Chennai just twice. The last time was for about a week and I almost died in the heat. It was August and it was even worse in Apr/May.

Don't trust the politicians, they say whatever gets them votes and whatever makes the other side look bad. Indian politics is very complex and many people from outside make mistakes when they use the logic of other countries. For example, many Hindu politicians openly play the anti-Hindu and pro-Muslim game because they can get Muslim votes as a block and win the election. It would not happen anywhere outside India where the majority community is shown the finger so openly.

Women in rural areas have a hard time. The husbands are usually bums who don't work enough but drink a lot and beat their hard working wives in the evenings.

The middle class and upper class situation is different. Most girls work these days and don't put up with crap. There are strict laws against many evils. Some purely anti-male laws which many women misuse.

Here is an example
Flipside of dowry law: Men recall how Section 498(A) is unfairly used against them - Firstpost

The US media likes to portray Hindu Indian men as rapists and creeps, but they give a free pass to Muslim men and Islamic countries where women are treated worse than animals. Even within India, a lot of Christian Indians try to portray Hindus as old fashioned and try to convert them... it's a complex story.

We have to be careful before believing stats like that.
Women like to say "we make 71 cents to every dollar a man makes!!". There is a lot of nuance people choose to disregard.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

john117 said:


> That's not how it works in immigrant families. By rejecting the social status drivers you invalidate Mrs. Nirvana's position and overall mindset.
> 
> Signed: Honorary Desi


at some point someone in the immigrant family abandons the old ways and adapts

that person is usually a badass


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

john117 said:


> That's not how it works in immigrant families. By rejecting the social status drivers you invalidate Mrs. Nirvana's position and overall mindset.
> 
> Signed: Honorary Desi


I am not sure I understand, could you please elaborate?

Are you saying that it is hard to disregard Mrs N's mindset about social status? Then yes that is correct. But I did it though. We were single income so I would not allow us to waste money on things merely to show off. Consequently today we are financially very strong. The couples who blew up money are in debt today. My wife hated me back then but I hope she will realize some day and say it. Today I think she realizes it but is too prideful to say it.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

jld said:


> Your context is not the same as nirvana's, far.
> 
> I do wish you could have influence over your wife without resorting to threats of calling the police. Have you talked with your wife about that recently, how she feels about the threat, and if either of you thinks it is still necessary?
> 
> ETA: You can pm if you think this might be a t/j.


No, I haven't.

There has not been a need because she does not even step into my space like she used to, let alone strike me. 

However, I see no need to discuss it. She can honor it, or not honor it. There really is nothing to discuss.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

My wife should feel deprived - only an X3 . I'm a bad husband clearly.

Nirvana, you may not think you're playing the socioeconomic status game but if Mrs Nirvana is playing it, you're playing it. Unless you're willing to completely tune out your culture, and then some. 

Focus on things that improve rankings while being relatively inexpensive and have a good payoff value - kids SAT scores or pricier private schools (not too bad after scholarship money) for example... Don't get into material wealth wars.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

nirvana said:


> No I disagree. I don't play into this social status game though my wife has made my life miserable because of it.
> 
> I don't buy any fancy toys unless I can afford it and feel comfortable. As an example I drove my 17 year old Honda with windows falling off and paint chipping until I felt comfortable to buy a fancy German car (at the lower end which I could afford). BTW, I've paid it off in 1 year. I really don't care what people around think of me. They probably think I am a miser, not very successful since I don't care about brand name clothes and don't gloat.
> 
> ...


OK, my takeaway from this is that you and your wife have somewhat different values.

Your issue is that when you vetoed your wife's request for material items, she would get upset and then you would get upset because she was upset.

The solution is to stop allowing her emotions to affect your emotions.

If you know something is the right decision, just own it and accept that it may upset her, but that it is still fine.

Then allow her to voice her frustration. Just listen, let her get it out. Then just do what you think is right.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

nirvana said:


> I've been 2 Chennai just twice. The last time was for about a week and I almost died in the heat. It was August and it was even worse in Apr/May.
> 
> Don't trust the politicians, they say whatever gets them votes and whatever makes the other side look bad. Indian politics is very complex and many people from outside make mistakes when they use the logic of other countries. For example, many Hindu politicians openly play the anti-Hindu and pro-Muslim game because they can get Muslim votes as a block and win the election. It would not happen anywhere outside India where the majority community is shown the finger so openly.
> 
> ...


Yep, it's hot in Chennai!

A year after we moved back, we went to buy a car. It was 3:00 or so, and the car we were looking at had been baking in the sun all day. We got in and closed the doors before turning it on. 

All of a sudden, in the suffocating heat, physical memory of the heat of India flooded me. It felt just like Chennai in that car.

We lived in a very expensive apartment complex. The same neighbor I mentioned was a beaten wife. Arranged marriage.

My first maid's mother was beaten, too. Alcoholic husband. Last maid's husband an alcoholic bum, too.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

nirvana said:


> I am not sure I understand, could you please elaborate?
> 
> Are you saying that it is hard to disregard Mrs N's mindset about social status? Then yes that is correct. But I did it though. We were single income so I would not allow us to waste money on things merely to show off. Consequently today we are financially very strong. The couples who blew up money are in debt today. My wife hated me back then but I hope she will realize some day and say it. Today I think she realizes it but is too prideful to say it.


the point is it doesn't really matter what she thinks about it. you know it is the right decision and that is what matters.

stop looking for her to validate you.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> No, I haven't.
> 
> There has not been a need because she does not even step into my space like she used to, let alone strike me.
> 
> However, I see no need to discuss it. She can honor it, or not honor it. There really is nothing to discuss.


Her feelings on it might be worth discussing.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Anon,
He's already at diminishing returns in income. They have a nice life.

He can also look around and say: I'm grateful for the life we have.

Nirvana refuses to accept that there will always be friends and neighbors who earn more. And ALL of N2's behavior is driven by that fact. By her competitiveness.

And when this conversation makes him angry - maybe very angry - his anger validates to her that indeed there is a big problem - NOT BEING RICH. 

And the deeply sad thing about that whole back and forth between them is that it over weights 'trinkets and baubles' - and under weights a happy, healthy financially stable (which they are) family. 







Anon1111 said:


> how cool would it be if Nirvana just shrugged his shoulders and smiled every time his wife tried to play the social status game with him?
> 
> what if he demonstrated to her without anger or resentment how pointless and silly the whole concept is?


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Anon,
> He's already at diminishing returns in income. They have a nice life.
> 
> He can also look around and say: I'm grateful for the life we have.
> ...


You are right about much of this, MEM. But it is very hard to be different in Indian society. And neither of them wants to be.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

M2 struck me one time in anger - in 26 years.

She was very embarrassed. 




farsidejunky said:


> Conversely, there is something to be said for not wanting to subject yourself to that form of drama. I won't live in that type of environment.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> M2 struck me one time in anger - in 26 years.
> 
> She was very embarrassed.


A one-off I could understand.

This is not a one-off.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

I think the biting is the worst thing, worse than hitting. It's seems more personally violent, somehow.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Livvie said:


> I think the biting is the worst thing, worse than hitting. It's seems more personally violent, somehow.


It says to me more than just losing control in anger and hitting out. It says deliberate wanting to personally injure.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

john117 said:


> My wife should feel deprived - only an X3 . I'm a bad husband clearly.
> 
> Nirvana, you may not think you're playing the socioeconomic status game but if Mrs Nirvana is playing it, you're playing it. Unless you're willing to completely tune out your culture, and then some.
> 
> Focus on things that improve rankings while being relatively inexpensive and have a good payoff value - kids SAT scores or pricier private schools (not too bad after scholarship money) for example... Don't get into material wealth wars.


John, that's what I have been doing over the past 15 years! 
While some peer couples were blowing up money on useless things, I saved and bought a single fam house in a great area with great schools. No need for private, the public school here has great ratings. Completed an MBA from a top school. Paid off a lot of mortgage. Most importantly, financially very secure and relaxed in case something bad happens like job loss (which has happened to me recently). Spent money on wife's training classes and her career is also shooting up. All good. And I didn't do a thing because "if not, what will people think?". I am actually proud of myself especially in face of all the flak I got from the wife.

Now that the essentials are taken care of, we can splurge a bit and not worry about it.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

Livvie said:


> It says to me more than just losing control in anger and hitting out. It says deliberate wanting to personally injure.


I've forgiven her. And I will not bring it up in the future and muddy up life.

I think it was her way of saying "*SHUT THE F UP AND LISTEN TO ME FOR GOD'S SAKES!!!!*" rather than to injure me.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> M2 struck me one time in anger - in 26 years.
> 
> She was very embarrassed.


The wife's been sweet and flirty lately.  And I am lovin' it.
No improvement in sex life yet but I guess it will come.
Now when I feel like doing it, I just go for it directly. She responds and when she doesn't and makes it clear, I just go to sleep. She once said "Oh, did you take offense??" condescendingly and I replied "ha... you have to do a LOT more for me to take offense!". Then after 5 minutes she came close and snuggled up (didn't lead to sex).


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

nirvana said:


> I've forgiven her. And I will not bring it up in the future and muddy up life.
> 
> I think it was her way of saying "*SHUT THE F UP AND LISTEN TO ME FOR GOD'S SAKES!!!!*" rather than to injure me.


I believe this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Anon,
> He's already at diminishing returns in income. They have a nice life.
> 
> He can also look around and say: I'm grateful for the life we have.
> ...



MEM, where did you get that?
I can point to a few around here who make more. I am okay with that. I could have taken up a traveling high stress consulting job out of grad school to show off (Indians love to show off about the travel in their jobs) but I did not because I wanted to spend time with the family. So I paid the price a bit in terms of career.

I (we) am quite well off and I save. I can buy almost anything I want today. I don't want to make half a million and hate myself every minute of my life. I once took a 10% pay cut to escape a job that gave me PTSD.

I think the wife has also improved in the sense that she has realized that all that glittered was not gold.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

Ok so I just bought 2 concert tickets to a band that she adores. She wanted to take the kids and I wasn't willing to spend $500 on a concert. Now I'll take her to the area some hours early and we can walk around and spend some time together and then go to the event.
She is welcome to hate me now.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

nirvana said:


> Ok so I just bought 2 concert tickets to a band that she adores. She wanted to take the kids and I wasn't willing to spend $500 on a concert. Now I'll take her to the area some hours early and we can walk around and spend some time together and then go to the event.
> She is welcome to hate me now.


be prepared for her to throw a little fit about not taking the kids. if she does this, just let her spill it and listen and don't react.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Nirvana,
All your upside - lies in your interpersonal dynamic.






nirvana said:


> MEM, where did you get that?
> I can point to a few around here who make more. I am okay with that. I could have taken up a traveling high stress consulting job out of grad school to show off (Indians love to show off about the travel in their jobs) but I did not because I wanted to spend time with the family. So I paid the price a bit in terms of career.
> 
> I (we) am quite well off and I save. I can buy almost anything I want today. I don't want to make half a million and hate myself every minute of my life. I once took a 10% pay cut to escape a job that gave me PTSD.
> ...


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> be prepared for her to throw a little fit about not taking the kids. if she does this, just let her spill it and listen and don't react.


Yes, I talked to her dad this morning before buying it and he was all for it and he said we should even spend the previous night downtown. He is visiting us from India. 
I think she will be pleasantly surprised and also excited but then might do a show of being a little pissed that the kids aren't coming. That is okay, I will let her vent. And I am taking her.

She called me a few minutes ago to tell me that she was going for a hair appointment and would be late. Then ended it with a "love you" in a cute voice. That is getting more common. Better than an "okay bye" earlier. 
Have I turned this around??


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

nirvana said:


> Yes, I talked to her dad this morning before buying it and he was all for it and he said we should even spend the previous night downtown. He is visiting us from India.
> I think she will be pleasantly surprised and also excited but then might do a show of being a little pissed that the kids aren't coming. That is okay, I will let her vent. And I am taking her.
> 
> She called me a few minutes ago to tell me that she was going for a hair appointment and would be late. Then ended it with a "love you" in a cute voice. That is getting more common. Better than an "okay bye" earlier.
> Have I turned this around??


I certainly hope so.

You are seeing how much influence you have, nirvana. You were just not using it properly before.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

nirvana said:


> She called me a few minutes ago to tell me that she was going for a hair appointment and would be late. Then ended it with a "love you" in a cute voice. That is getting more common. Better than an "okay bye" earlier.
> Have I turned this around??


I don't think this is a problem that is ever "solved"

your wife sounds high maintenance. not trying to disparage you, just giving you my impression


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

jld said:


> I certainly hope so.
> 
> You are seeing how much influence you have, nirvana. You were just not using it properly before.


Looks like it.
This morning as we both were getting ready for work, she wore a nice skirt and a nice black top that I really like. Then she decided to not wear the top and took it off. I was horsing around with her a little bit touching her waist and elsewhere and telling her how hot she look and she was trying to shoo me away (playfully) and was afraid her dad in the next room might hear us. Then I came close to kiss her on the cheek and she grabbed my face and kissed me on the lips straight on. I got an upgrade! 

All good signs. Looks like I unlocked some mystery with her here. :grin2:

The best part for me is that I feel at peace and do not feel any stress. I hope I can maintain it.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> I don't think this is a problem that is ever "solved"
> 
> your wife sounds high maintenance. not trying to disparage you, just giving you my impression


No, I don't think she is. Comparing her to women her age we hang out as couples. There are some that are really really off the charts and some that are very very frugal. I don't think that either one is good because on one side you get into debt and on the other side, you are left with a frumpy looking wife who does not bother to take care of herself. I have seen women on both ends of this spectrum so someone who is in the middle is always good in my opinion.

When she talks of buying something out of our league, I always have shot it down. And will continue to do it. Until then I have no problem if she dresses nice, buys good makeup/shoes/bag etc. She does it within our income bracket.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

She must not have discovered Nordstrom's and higher end cosmetics yet . Those make my camera budget pale by comparison.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

john117 said:


> She must not have discovered Nordstrom's and higher end cosmetics yet . Those make my camera budget pale by comparison.


Oh she has! We have a Nordstrom's about a mile away and she goes there every now and then. She is good with spending and I take credit for that. When she lived with her dad, her dad didn't teach her about fiscal responsibility and say yes to everything. It was a bit of a shock after she got married and I was watching expenses consider I was also starting off in life and I didn't want to ask my dad/FIL for money.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> be prepared for her to throw a little fit about not taking the kids. if she does this, just let her spill it and listen and don't react.


She's been in a good mood and we made love last night.
So this morning she was up and getting ready to go for a run and I was in bed. I got up and told her that I had a surprise for her and that I was taking her to the concert. Her eyes brightened up! Then I gently said that it was just the two of us and it was in the evening and we'll have dinner out before the concert. She was thrilled. She said we should take the kids "next time" and I said "sure!" and I bet she didn't believe that I meant it!
So this turned out well also. 

Her PMS is coming up in a few days, so that will be the next test of how I handle it.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

nirvana said:


> Oh she has! We have a Nordstrom's about a mile away and she goes there every now and then. She is good with spending and I take credit for that. When she lived with her dad, her dad didn't teach her about fiscal responsibility and say yes to everything. It was a bit of a shock after she got married and I was watching expenses consider I was also starting off in life and I didn't want to ask my dad/FIL for money.


My sympathies . Teach her the inner virtues of Nordstrom Rack and you'll be fine. My daughters are spoiled rotten ($1000 cat for graduation gift) but they know their limits too.

I cringe to think an entire generation of women will grow up without knowing about Filene's Basement or Loehmann's...


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

john117 said:


> My sympathies . Teach her the inner virtues of Nordstrom Rack and you'll be fine. My daughters are spoiled rotten ($1000 cat for graduation gift) but they know their limits too.
> 
> I cringe to think an entire generation of women will grow up without knowing about Filene's Basement or Loehmann's...


Yep! Thankfully we have a N.Rack in the vicinity so she goes there quite often and very rarely to Nordstrom. 
We had a Filene's next to Rack but they closed down some years ago. No Loehmanns though.

I think it's more about having an eye for good clothes rather than just blind spending. You can look real nice in affordable clothes and look tacky in expensive ones.


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## VizCaya (Oct 19, 2015)

May be it is a medical issue , in my case we ended up doing dozen of tests and thyroid imaging , etc ....

in my wife case all tests came back normal , yet she always find an excuse to rage during that period .

if you can't leave , there is no way excpt ignoring her ...
which means get depressed yourself with every PMS and the cycle itself ...

it is toxic situation .


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

Mixed weekend.

The app that I use to track her cycle beeped and told me that it was arriving in a few days.

I did begin to see some signs of irritation and early signs in her behavior while at home. Then we set out to dinner before the concert. As we were talking the car, she began to talk about how her parents (currently visiting) were so nice and helpful and we needed to get her mom something. I said sure (we already got dad a $500 tablet + other things). She asked me to "set a budget" fora gift to mom. Now that's a trap and if she ends up not buying something, she'll blame me saying I didn't make it clear how much she could spend. So I very explicitly said there was no budget, she could buy her whatever she wanted. 

It seemed like she was itching for a confrontation, even when we were going out on a date.

Then as we reached the restaurant (an expensive one), she started about how nice her parents were and how I should be nice to them as well. I was like huh?? I told her that her father was condescending towards me the previous morning by assuming that I didn't know what certain Indian dishes were (duh) and not to worry, he had something else for me to eat. He does things like that all the time even to his own wife. My reply got her started on tearing down my parents saying they did not invite her parents for some event and that she trusts her parents more etc etc. I confess I felt a rush of anger come through and asked if she was trying her best to ruin the date. She got defensive and say no no, we are just having a conversation here etc etc. It was clear that she was looking for trouble. 

My mistake was to engage her in a conversation I know was heading into a storm. To my credit, I did not fall into the ravine and pulled myself from the edge and just let her talk and did not respond further. The dinner went well though in the first 5 minutes she was silent and I know she was angry.

The concert went well and she enjoyed it, held my hand, danced with me, said she enjoyed it a lot. We had a good time.

This morning as I was on my way to work and she was driving to work, she calls and tells me some general stuff and then dives into some more controversial stuff. She says that her parents told her that I told them that I was taking many days off next month (when they are gone) to watch the kids. I said no such thing, I said just a day or 2 a week for 3 weeks. Her dad is a manipulative person and lies a lot. His plan seems to be to blame me for their choice to fly off to stay with the other daughter and claim that they thought that since I was taking time off, it was okay for them to leave. Then if I say I was taking just 1 day a week, it would be my fault. He plays these tricks all the time. I told her that I didn't say this at all, then she began to demand "dates" when we are flying off to India in Dec for a family event. I told her dates were not fixed yet, so she started off shouting over the phone. I told her calmly that I was done talking. She continues. I repeat. Then she hangs up on me.

My takeaways.
Negatives:
1. Her psychology is that when she is stressed (PMS, job friends etc), she cannot handle it, so needs to talk about it and let it out. She does not have the courage to fight the offending person, and thinks it is okay to take it out on me. She has a few controversial topics like my parents that she knows she can get a rise out of me. Or my job. Or comparing me to her friend's husbands (in the past). That sets me off and I respond and it's a big fight and she releases all her stress. Of course, I am the bad person for saying this or that in her mind. 
Yesterday I should have completely avoided that trick. I did fall for it though I pulled myself back later on. Need to work on it.

2. The same thing this morning, when she starts to talk about my parents, I should just change the topic. I fall for it, because I am not happy with some things my parents did/do (pamper my sibling at my cost) but that is a childhood issue for me. Her father is an unethical lying scumbag but I don't bring it up anymore.

Unfortunately yesterday I gave her the excuse she was looking for to scream at me and not feel guilty about it. When I don't respond to her bait, she does feel guilty and apologizes

Positives:
1. After the initial slip-up on my part, I pulled back and calmed myself down. This could have easily resulted in me turning back and going home. 
2. I don't feel depressed since I am doing this for my own self-improvement and not to please her. I need to not get anger spikes and not engage in discussion on our parents, siblings, friends etc which can be hot-topics. I want to defeat anger and spread only positive energy.


This will take longer than I thought but other than the spike yesterday, I have been calm and collected. I am sure in the evening she is going to hope that I mope and be grumpy and do the silent treatment thing so she has another reason to complain at night and relieve her stress and make me the bad person. But I will be normal and happy!

A few important tests coming up this week to see how much progress I have made.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

VizCaya said:


> May be it is a medical issue , in my case we ended up doing dozen of tests and thyroid imaging , etc ....
> 
> in my wife case all tests came back normal , yet she always find an excuse to rage during that period .
> 
> ...


It may be a medical hormonal issue with her. She could be ramping up her drama for her period coming on Friday. 

Yes, I cannot leave her for this. There are kids involved also.

I am not depressed though. It used to depress me, but not anymore. I have made huge progress in thinking positive but I have not reached where I want to be. It's a matter of building mental strength. No one can bother me if I don't let them. If I let people bother me, then I am weak.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

"Wife, I recognize that when your period is near, you feel the need to heighten situations. I just want to let you know that I'm aware of it and I have chosen not to engage in such situations, because I want our relationship to be a good one; so if it looks like you're going to raise your voice to me, or be otherwise disrespectful - which I understand is out of your control because of the period - I'm going to disengage and hang up or leave the room, so we don't add any Love Busters. I'm just letting you know ahead of time, in case you see me disengaging; it has nothing to do with you. I still love you and always will."


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Nirvana, that's not PMS I'm reading. Maybe it's just me. Unless you have done a full panel before and during it's hard to pinpoint the reason. The parents trigger is standard issue Desi behavior


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

john117 said:


> Nirvana, that's not PMS I'm reading. Maybe it's just me. Unless you have done a full panel before and during it's hard to pinpoint the reason. The parents trigger is standard issue Desi behavior


She gets this way every time her PMS approaches. I was able to predict it on this thread. Her period date is Jul 30 according to my app. She was a dream for the past few weeks before yesterday.

Yes, comparison with others and "what will people think??" is a big weakness for desis (Indians). Women especially those who are housewives do this all day and compare husband's job titles, vacations they took, kid's grades, number of maidservants etc. Working ones have other things to compare but many do so. Some Indian men, the effeminate ones, do that also. My FIL is one such and my wife is used to it so this has been a conflict issue for years. She is astounded that I don't do what she wants me to do when all she wants to do is to keep up with the Kumars. I don't play that game. When she has good ideas, then I do it and compliment her on those.

BTW, how do you know about desis? Have many friends or are you one yourself?


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

nirvana said:


> Mixed weekend.
> 
> The app that I use to track her cycle beeped and told me that it was arriving in a few days.
> 
> I did begin to see some signs of irritation and early signs in her behavior while at home. Then we set out to dinner before the concert. As we were talking the car, she began to talk about how her parents (currently visiting) were so nice and helpful and we needed to get her mom something. I said sure (we already got dad a $500 tablet + other things). She asked me to "set a budget" fora gift to mom. Now that's a trap and if she ends up not buying something, she'll blame me saying I didn't make it clear how much she could spend. So I very explicitly said there was no budget, she could buy her whatever she wanted.


I'm guessing this is an Indian thing, but this whole gift giving thing seems extreme to me.

You bought your FIL a $500 gift?! For visiting you and acting like a d-ck the whole time?!

also, I thought your wife had a job now. why don't you just say, "They're your parents. If you want to get them a gift, use your own money and leave me out of it."

this all seems like pointless drama to me. I would let this be the last time you engage in discussions on gifts for her parents.



nirvana said:


> It seemed like she was itching for a confrontation, even when we were going out on a date.


it's actually comical how predictable it is. try to see the amusing side of it vs getting sucked into the drama.



nirvana said:


> Then as we reached the restaurant (an expensive one), she started about how nice her parents were and how I should be nice to them as well. I was like huh?? I told her that her father was condescending towards me the previous morning by assuming that I didn't know what certain Indian dishes were (duh) and not to worry, he had something else for me to eat. He does things like that all the time even to his own wife. My reply got her started on tearing down my parents saying they did not invite her parents for some event and that she trusts her parents more etc etc. I confess I felt a rush of anger come through and asked if she was trying her best to ruin the date. She got defensive and say no no, we are just having a conversation here etc etc. It was clear that she was looking for trouble. .


again, pointless drama. do you really think you are going to convince her that her parents are jerks?

when she starts making conversation about how great her parents are, you know the truth. just smile and say, "Yeah, they're the best!"



nirvana said:


> My mistake was to engage her in a conversation I know was heading into a storm. To my credit, I did not fall into the ravine and pulled myself from the edge and just let her talk and did not respond further. The dinner went well though in the first 5 minutes she was silent and I know she was angry.


good that you were able to re-group. 

show her that you don't need to convince her you're right on every topic.

you're confident enough in your opinion that you're able to let it go and allow her to have her own opinion.



nirvana said:


> The concert went well and she enjoyed it, held my hand, danced with me, said she enjoyed it a lot. We had a good time.


nice recovery.



nirvana said:


> This morning as I was on my way to work and she was driving to work, she calls and tells me some general stuff and then dives into some more controversial stuff. She says that her parents told her that I told them that I was taking many days off next month (when they are gone) to watch the kids. I said no such thing, I said just a day or 2 a week for 3 weeks. Her dad is a manipulative person and lies a lot. His plan seems to be to blame me for their choice to fly off to stay with the other daughter and claim that they thought that since I was taking time off, it was okay for them to leave. Then if I say I was taking just 1 day a week, it would be my fault. He plays these tricks all the time. I told her that I didn't say this at all, then she began to demand "dates" when we are flying off to India in Dec for a family event. I told her dates were not fixed yet, so she started off shouting over the phone. I told her calmly that I was done talking. She continues. I repeat. Then she hangs up on me.


more pointless drama. if you have an issue with her dad, speak to him directly. why are you arguing with your wife when you know it's her dad that lied? you must know that she is predisposed to believe her father, especially given how she is currently treating you (i.e., with very little respect).

frankly, I wouldn't allow a man who pulled this type of sh-t to stay in my house, much less buy him a gift.



nirvana said:


> My takeaways.
> Negatives:
> 1. Her psychology is that when she is stressed (PMS, job friends etc), she cannot handle it, so needs to talk about it and let it out. She does not have the courage to fight the offending person, and thinks it is okay to take it out on me. She has a few controversial topics like my parents that she knows she can get a rise out of me. Or my job. Or comparing me to her friend's husbands (in the past). That sets me off and I respond and it's a big fight and she releases all her stress. Of course, I am the bad person for saying this or that in her mind.
> Yesterday I should have completely avoided that trick. I did fall for it though I pulled myself back later on. Need to work on it.


sorry man, your eyes are opening somewhat but you're still kind of in the doormat position.

let her see that nothing will get a rise out of you. stop engaging in conversations that have no point other than her need for drama.

you are doing well recognizing when she is just trying to start a fight, but you need to take the next step and refuse to participate in the fighting. 

let her have her opinion on whatever issue it is. you don't have to agree.

don't let her suck you into her family issues. if she says something that her parents brought up to you, just say "That's interesting" and leave it at that. Then go talk to her parents directly if you think they are out of line.

Be in charge of what you want to talk about and don't talk about anything else.



nirvana said:


> 2. The same thing this morning, when she starts to talk about my parents, I should just change the topic. I fall for it, because I am not happy with some things my parents did/do (pamper my sibling at my cost) but that is a childhood issue for me. Her father is an unethical lying scumbag but I don't bring it up anymore.
> 
> Unfortunately yesterday I gave her the excuse she was looking for to scream at me and not feel guilty about it. When I don't respond to her bait, she does feel guilty and apologizes.


good that you are seeing you don't need to respond



nirvana said:


> Positives:
> 1. After the initial slip-up on my part, I pulled back and calmed myself down. This could have easily resulted in me turning back and going home.
> 2. I don't feel depressed since I am doing this for my own self-improvement and not to please her. I need to not get anger spikes and not engage in discussion on our parents, siblings, friends etc which can be hot-topics. I want to defeat anger and spread only positive energy.
> 
> ...


these are definitely positives and you are on the right track. take the next step and don't allow her to dictate the tenor of the interaction.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

turnera said:


> "Wife, I recognize that when your period is near, you feel the need to heighten situations. I just want to let you know that I'm aware of it and I have chosen not to engage in such situations, because I want our relationship to be a good one; so if it looks like you're going to raise your voice to me, or be otherwise disrespectful - which I understand is out of your control because of the period - I'm going to disengage and hang up or leave the room, so we don't add any Love Busters. I'm just letting you know ahead of time, in case you see me disengaging; it has nothing to do with you. I still love you and always will."


That would set her off. I actually did say that yesterday when we were talking to the restaurant in a very toned down way so as to not sound like she has some illness that made her crazy. 

I bet she knows this deep down but will not accept it. After her PMS when I rewind, she smiles and begins to say how she was feeling but does not apologize for bad behavior.

Anyway. Yesterday I failed to bring down the percentage of my fault in the tiff to zero. I did well, but not yet zero. I bet there will be more baiting over the next few days since her sister is visiting to take back her parents to go stay with her and she will complain that I was "grumpy" or "not talking enough" or "sitting in a corner" or some such cooked up excuse. She will feel emotional that her parents are leaving and try to make me her punching bag to deal with this. Been there before, and will happen again.

Should be water on a duck's back with NO response from me and *NO anger*! Watch me, I can do this!! 

That is my goal. No response to any kind of provocation.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I'm an honorary Desi . I've been dealing with Indians since college and find them to be great people. But I'm into the culture as well, the same people we used to read India Abroad together now have kids in their 20's... I've attended way too many concerts, dance festivals, the works. A few of my buddies are very close friends.

My experience is mostly with south Indians, tho. My wife's is mostly with northern Indians. Quite different.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

Wife just called at lunch time.
She started off slightly aggressively asking why I didn't support her, she is stressed out etc etc. I listened and then told her to calm down and talk to me properly without accusing me of things. If not, we could talk later.

Her father is such a lying disgusting manipulative POS. Here's the situation. He and his wife (poor sweet lady) are visiting us here and his other daughter in a different city. We need someone to watch the kids over summer and since they are coming, we decided not to hire a nanny. The sister sends her kids to camps all day so do not really need the in-laws. But she manipulated things with her father so that they visit them there when we still have 3 weeks to go for holidays and so that they stay with her for 2 weeks more overall. What do we do for 3 weeks now? Her father did not bother to consult us before agreeing on the date for the sister to pick them up. He just let the sister manipulate/guilt him into agreeing and this weak fellow just capitulated. I had said once earlier that I have some days off and will take "some" during the 3 weeks.

Now as the date approaches, there is no proper plan as to what to do. So to alleviate his feeling of guilt, he tells my wife that nirvana promised to take time off so everything will be okay. See how he manipulated what I had said? He turned my "some days a week" into "all week" and spread that notion around. So now my wife calls me to ask and says that her dad said that I said I would "take time off during those 3 weeks" (real question is how much??). So if I say no, I would be the bad guy and look like the one who was changing his plans and ruining it for everyone. So the FIL is not the guilty party for deserting us, it is nirvana! He's done things like this before, so I can smell his game from afar.

Effing POS. He is 70 but still plays these games with his kids. So FIL gets into a back and forth about this with my wife and then he grandly says "Ok, I will postpone our trip for another week! Just tell me to". Another clever ploy knowing my wife will say "no, that's okay, just go ahead". He comes up of this smelling of roses. After all, he offered and my wife said no. So he is good and guilt-free

I told her to call his bluff and say sure, move your trip! (that's what her sister would do) Then he has to negotiate with his other daughter and get her to move her dates and get yelled at by the sister. My wife says that she said "Dad, what is the point of all this once you made the decision without asking me?" and left it at that. I can imagine him just staring back with a constipated look that he has all the time. 

My beef is not that they are leaving. I don't care even if they didn't visit us. I hate crooked people firing bullets using me as a shield. My wife knows very well how crooked he is and said "that's his nature" but it's her dad after all, so she is in that quandary.

My poor MIL does all the cooking and this fellow is right there to take the credit and play host in MY OWN HOUSE. He's commenting about how great some dish is and how I should take more. My wife tells me to control how much I eat for health reasons and says "that's enough" but this fellow wants to grab the credit and look good so he rebukes my wife and says that nirvana should be able to eat whatever and how much ever he wanted thinking that he is ingratiating himself to me. I know he just wants to be popular, he doesn't care about my health. A true politician with no ethics.

I really feel like kicking his ass for all he has done over 16 years but that would ruin relations forever.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

nirvana said:


> Wife just called at lunch time.
> She started off slightly aggressively asking why I didn't support her, she is stressed out etc etc. I listened and then told her to calm down and talk to me properly without accusing me of things. If not, we could talk later.
> 
> Her father is such a lying disgusting manipulative POS. Here's the situation. He and his wife (poor sweet lady) are visiting us here and his other daughter in a different city. We need someone to watch the kids over summer and since they are coming, we decided not to hire a nanny. The sister sends her kids to camps all day so do not really need the in-laws. But she manipulated things with her father so that they visit them there when we still have 3 weeks to go for holidays and so that they stay with her for 2 weeks more overall. What do we do for 3 weeks now? Her father did not bother to consult us before agreeing on the date for the sister to pick them up. He just let the sister manipulate/guilt him into agreeing and this weak fellow just capitulated. I had said once earlier that I have some days off and will take "some" during the 3 weeks.
> ...


why don't you just say the following:

"There appears to have been some kind of miscommunication. Since they are our kids, I will take responsibility and watch them.

"However, I think it's clear at this point that we can't rely on your parents. They're not obligated to watch our kids, so that's fine. But the tradeoff here is that if they can't be counted on to help out, then I'm not interested in them coming for extended stays at our house."

Be a little more comfortable with being the "bad guy."

The "bad guy" is not really a bad guy. 

The bad guy is just the guy who is willing to stick up for himself when he needs to.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Nonstarter in Indian houses, Anon  it's the third rail. Untouchable.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> why don't you just say the following:
> 
> "There appears to have been some kind of miscommunication. Since they are our kids, I will take responsibility and watch them.
> 
> ...


I am actually very comfortable being the bad guy. My wife for many years thought that I was one in comparison to some awesome husbands of her friends (who later on she realized one by one had several faults that she could not deal with). Now she does not talk about them! 
I was the bad guy when I said "no" to several big ticket items when I thought we could not afford them. I wasn't going to go into debt just to show off (you know how indians are). She pointed me to others who were "enjoying" while we "were not". Okay I said.. let them enjoy. Some North Indian men got huge dowries from their FIL when they got married. I got $0. Not that I wanted or demanded any such tainted money because I think it's a disgusting practice. I earn my own money but that was the reason they were spending so much money is what I told her. Her daddy never said no to her which is why she is like this. I say no when I think is needed so I am the bad guy. I don't really give a sheet though.

Yes, we both need to come together and figure something out. I am all for it. What I object is the FIL using me as his tool to alleviate any guilt feelings that he has. I don't mind being the bad guy for my own reasons, but should I really be a bad guy to make the slimy FIL look good? I might be the bad guy for my wife, but it's hard to do such things for a crook like him.

When I told her about his plan, she agreed grudgingly which is a good sign. I don't like anyone trying to manipulate me or my family and this man has tried to do it even though he should be taking care of us as a parent.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

john117 said:


> Nonstarter in Indian houses, Anon  it's the third rail. Untouchable.


Yes, I cannot tell my wife to not have the inlaws. It will not work and if I do it, it will irreparably ruin relations. So I have to be careful.

In general I think I need to do what I need to without allowing outside manipulation and truth twisting.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

nirvana said:


> Yes, I cannot tell my wife to not have the inlaws. It will not work and if I do it, it will irreparably ruin relations. So I have to be careful.
> 
> In general I think I need to do what I need to without allowing outside manipulation and truth twisting.


can you have a man to man talk with your FIL and say cut out the BS?


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## DrSher (Jul 17, 2016)

First of all, your wife needs to be told to fix her parents. That is not YOUR job. Trust me, these obnoxious in-laws don't want a divorced daughter either. Agree many Indian guys reek of beta and back stabbing in family dynamics.

Secondly, Indian girls aren't all the same Indian girls. Punjabi girls (Sikhs) will not put up with Stone Age Indian family dramas. That's among the coolest and hottest chicks you will ever meet; they don't let themselves be intimidated by losers and know how to dole out their fair share of kink. 

You don't live for your in-laws and neither should your wife. That FIL needs to be put in place. Your time is passed ok' man. Leave the kids alone!!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

nirvana said:


> That would set her off.


So?
You've already told her you won't participate in arguments. If she decides to make an issue out of it, that's her problem, because you will have WALKED AWAY like you just TOLD her you would do.

You won't be around to see it.

Until you can figure out how to not be afraid of her anger, you are her prisoner.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> can you have a man to man talk with your FIL and say cut out the BS?


I will reply to your other longer post when I get home...

The issue with him is that he is sneaky and does things with a cloak of deniability. He has this great need to be praised and thought of as a great guy who does good things. Fine, but actually do it. Not steal other people's work and claim them to be your own. 

If I talk to him about unpleasant things, then my wife will get upset that I am ruining their stay here, how they will now never come back... how they have maybe 10 more years to live.... etc etc. FIL is smart, every visit he says that this is their last so he gets the upper hand! He needs to be in Indian politics. Will fit in with the thugs and crooks. And outwardly he is very religious taking God's name every other minute, but I think it's all fake. What is the use if you are just an awful person in deeds.

Still... this is a tangent. 
I need to learn how to handle this myself. Outsiders can always cause trouble, but I have to stay strong and not let them. The onus is on ME. I'll get there. Making progress.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

turnera said:


> So?
> You've already told her you won't participate in arguments. If she decides to make an issue out of it, that's her problem, because you will have WALKED AWAY like you just TOLD her you would do.
> 
> You won't be around to see it.
> ...


turnera, I've done this and it does not lead anywhere. She gets angry and then a lot of time is wasted in how awful I am to her etc etc and I don't want this drama anymore. Trust me, I am not afraid of her anger which pisses her off especially when she thought her friends husbands cowered in front of their wives and I did not. I know this sounds silly. She's grown out of that a bit so that is good.

The only effective thing is for me to do what I have to and walk away (as you say above).


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

A quick update.

My app was right and her PMS started on time as predicted and I was ready for it. She did show signs of irritation towards me for some silly things and I just ignored them for most part. She did get close to getting me mad a few times, but I pulled back so there was no blow up.

As of today, the last blowup I had was 6 July, so it's been a month!

Her parents left with her sister, and so now it's just us. She is usually afraid of what people will think so is less inclined to go looking for trouble when we have guest (even her parents) but the real tests are ahead. How will she behave with me with there is no one looking? She's been great and I have done my bit of picking my battles and not contesting every little thing she says and analyzing it to death. We don't always do what she says but I don't argue about it either. This seems to have worked and she is more loving and even more patient and tries to avert fights from her side as well. I don't point it out when she leaves things lying around or does not close bottles, or leaves lights on.

Hasn't yet improved things in the bedroom, she touches me more often, cuddles more, but does not initiate yet. That's okay, I will do it maybe that's not her thing. 

Overall, it's been win-win. I don't get angry any more and have learned to cool down when I feel a surge, and so that is good. Her tendency to insult me is also disappearing. I think a few more months of this should only have things looking positive.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This is trending towards my favorite thread on TAM. 




nirvana said:


> A quick update.
> 
> My app was right and her PMS started on time as predicted and I was ready for it. She did show signs of irritation towards me for some silly things and I just ignored them for most part. She did get close to getting me mad a few times, but I pulled back so there was no blow up.
> 
> ...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> This is trending towards my favorite thread on TAM.


There is great power in learning not to take every last thing personally.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Walking away is only the right move if you've been emotionally over powered. You only walk away when you've allowed your agitated partner to synchronize you to THEIR (agitated) emotional state.

It's a blatant demonstration of weakness. 

That said - there's lots of diplomat grade misdirection - can be employed when you are starting to lose it. 

Go get something from another room - a glass of water - your phone - gives you 10-60 seconds to reach equilibrium. And construct a helpful response. 

The power move is to synchronize your partner to YOUR emotional state. This is often the highest act of service you can perform for a partner. 




turnera said:


> So?
> You've already told her you won't participate in arguments. If she decides to make an issue out of it, that's her problem, because you will have WALKED AWAY like you just TOLD her you would do.
> 
> You won't be around to see it.
> ...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Walking away is only the right move if you've been emotionally over powered. You only walk away when you've allowed your agitated partner to synchronize you to THEIR (agitated) emotional state.
> 
> *It's a blatant demonstration of weakness. *
> 
> ...


Totally agree.

You have come a long way since our first discussions on this, MEM.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Yes

You completely reversed my view of this. 

The highest act of service - reaching into your partners head and gently - quietly - and MOST important - unhurriedly - unraveling the tangled knot of fear or anxiety they've wrapped their axel round. 

Only thing better than Nirvana - is leading somebody there - from out the maze of their own anxieties. 

Result is you're in Nirvana - with your partner. 

Walking away just leaves them alone - lost in the maze. 



jld said:


> Totally agree.
> 
> You have come a long way since our first discussions on this, MEM.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Yes
> 
> You completely reversed my view of this.
> 
> ...


Depending on the fragility of the abandoned one, I think it might even be considered emotional abuse.

That walking away "advice" was the first shocking thing I read on relationship forums. I just could not believe anyone would recommend it.

I remember being so shocked when I first read it that I showed it to Dug. "That is so wrong," he said. Then I showed it to our daughter. She said the same thing. 

Again, we just could not believe that anyone would consider it "advice." To us it sounded like someone on a parenting forum advising locking a child in the cellar.

My therapist disagrees with it, too, saying it can escalate conflict, as the abandoned one might follow the person leaving. She said it is better to use empathy to reach out and calm the other person. 

She specifically suggested using a calm, soothing voice and asking them questions to better understand why they are upset.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

JLD,

This is often a complicated dynamic. So I will stick with:

It IS abusive to intentionally mess with someone's abandonment issues - when you don't need to. 

There are however - unstable aggressive people. 

This isn't always a simple situation. 


[:smile2:QUOTE=jld;16264754]Depending on the fragility of the abandoned one, I think it might even be considered emotional abuse.

That walking away "advice" was the first shocking thing I read on relationship forums. I just could not believe anyone would recommend it.

I remember being so shocked when I first read it that I showed it to Dug. "That is so wrong," he said. Then I showed it to our daughter. She said the same thing. 

Again, we just could not believe that anyone would consider it "advice." To us it sounded like someone on a parenting forum advising locking a child in the cellar.

My therapist disagrees with it, too, saying it can escalate conflict, as the abandoned one might follow the person leaving. She said it is better to use empathy to reach out and calm the other person. 

She specifically suggested using a calm, soothing voice and asking them questions to better understand why they are upset.[/QUOTE]


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

There are some for whom no amount of empathy, soft voice, refusing to engage (etc.) will calm them. I learned that the hard way with my exH, walking away when he was raging was an act of self preservation.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> 
> This is often a complicated dynamic. So I will stick with:
> 
> ...





Red Sonja said:


> There are some for whom no amount of empathy, soft voice, refusing to engage (etc.) will calm them. I learned that the hard way with my exH, walking away when he was raging was an act of self preservation.


Certainly, if the one walking away feels at least as threatened, if not more, by the one becoming emotional, it can be an act of self-preservation. 

And if that is the case, it would be important to leave permanently as soon as possible. Some relationships are simply unsafe and untenable.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Red Sonja said:


> There are some for whom no amount of empathy, soft voice, refusing to engage (etc.) will calm them. I learned that the hard way with my exH, walking away when he was raging was an act of self preservation.


There seems to be an ample supply of rose colored glasses around here from people that have never experienced what you described...


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

john117 said:


> There seems to be an ample supply of rose colored glasses around here from people that have never experienced what you described...


And that's okay because it's not something I would wish for anyone to experience.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Red Sonja said:


> And that's okay because it's not something I would wish for anyone to experience.


True, but it does cast doubt on one's suggestions...


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> This is trending towards my favorite thread on TAM.


Thanks MEM.
The last few weeks have been very good and I see a lot of signs of improvement in our relationship. She talks in a loving way and even when I show signs of getting agitated, she tries to calm things down and these days it is a lot easy for me to be calm because I let unimportant things go. I am better at picking my battles.
She's been unwell lately with fever, cough, throat ache so we haven't been able to do anything romantic but if I am in the mood, I just tell her straight and if she shoots me down for some reason, I just brush it off. Earlier, I used to get pissed. A few weeks ago, when she wasn't in the mood (tired, sleepy etc), I said ok and decided to go to sleep. Her reflex reaction was how it was earlier "Oh, did you take offense? There is no need to... I have been working all day blah blah etc etc". I let her go through her speech and just said I wasn't offended and she had to do a lot more to offend me. That was about 3 weeks ago.

I've noticed that over the years she feels that she is under scrutiny or under siege. She and I have areas where we differ when we come to parenting. She tends to over-parent and pamper and not give the kids their own space. If they have a moment's idle time, she rushes in to fill with "activities" and gets mad at me that I am not "engaging" them. In contrast, I let them have their idle time. Let them do nothing for some time. They work hard during the school year so I am okay if they don't do workbooks or puzzles during summer holidays. They do well in school. She also makes decisions based on what other people think. I am very much against that because it is a recipe for bad decisions. Do something that you want to do, not copy others blindly.

So earlier I used to point them out and after 10+ years if I am not able to improve her, I don't think I can. So I let her talk about whatever she wants to, but I do what I think is right. That seems to work with her. What she hates is if I openly oppose her and argue on anything she feels strongly (at that moment) about. Usually she changes her mind later, so it's useless to argue about everything.

Some months ago, when the stock market crashed, she called and wanted to know how we were doing. We were down 25% but I didn't want to say. She said she heard chatter at work. So I said we were breakeven. Then she said that we if go below, we should sell. I said sure. But did not sell anything. Now we are 5% up for the year as the markets rebounded.

She also lets me touch her all over except when the kids are around of course! Let's see. I can ruin everything with one blow up but this time I feel that I have conquered that tendency.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Getting control of your emotions has certainly helped you, nirvana. Emotional independence pays great dividends.

I think you should have been honest with her about the stocks. You could have explained why you did not want to sell, and stuck to that, while reassuring her.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Nirvana,

I know why you did it - but you cannot lie about financial stuff and also expect her to trust you. 

Far better to say: The market is in a correction - the cost of getting out and then returning is high. Worse - timing a re entry is very very difficult. 

And then: I'm not going to let anything bad happen to us






nirvana said:


> Thanks MEM.
> The last few weeks have been very good and I see a lot of signs of improvement in our relationship. She talks in a loving way and even when I show signs of getting agitated, she tries to calm things down and these days it is a lot easy for me to be calm because I let unimportant things go. I am better at picking my battles.
> She's been unwell lately with fever, cough, throat ache so we haven't been able to do anything romantic but if I am in the mood, I just tell her straight and if she shoots me down for some reason, I just brush it off. Earlier, I used to get pissed. A few weeks ago, when she wasn't in the mood (tired, sleepy etc), I said ok and decided to go to sleep. Her reflex reaction was how it was earlier "Oh, did you take offense? There is no need to... I have been working all day blah blah etc etc". I let her go through her speech and just said I wasn't offended and she had to do a lot more to offend me. That was about 3 weeks ago.
> 
> ...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Nirvana,
> 
> I know why you did it - but you cannot lie about financial stuff and also expect her to trust you.
> 
> ...


He does not have _that_ much power, MEM.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

JLD,
Would Dug let anything 'bad' happen to you financially? Like losing your house? Can you imagine a scenario where that happens?






jld said:


> He does not have _that_ much power, MEM.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> Would Dug let anything 'bad' happen to you financially? Like losing your house? Can you imagine a scenario where that happens?


He cannot control everything, MEM. I am sure he has diversified, and has tried to make wise decisions. But there are no guarantees in life, correct?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Also, MEM, remember that we have a son who has had cancer twice. He got it before the Affordable Care Act. 

There are certainly people who lost everything paying for a loved one's health care. I hope that will not still happen now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

What it comes down to is managing risk in a sensible way.

When I tell M2 - nothing 'bad' is gonna happen - that's not a guarantee of future family vacations to Europe. It is more a statement about food, safe shelter, clothing and health care. The basics.

Is it a hard guarantee? I guess not - we could have a depression type total market crash. 

I think those things are so unlikely as to dismiss them from consideration when reassuring M2. 





jld said:


> He cannot control everything, MEM. I am sure he has diversified, and has tried to make wise decisions. But there are no guarantees in life, correct?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> What it comes down to is managing risk in a sensible way.
> 
> When I tell M2 - nothing 'bad' is gonna happen - that's not a guarantee of future family vacations to Europe. It is more a statement about food, safe shelter, clothing and health care. The basics.
> 
> ...


I really, really hope that does not happen. But considering nothing much was done to dissuade bankers from taking similar risks as before, who knows?

Nirvana, again, I think you need to have honest discussions with your wife. You certainly don't have to give in to her, though. 

And I totally agree with MEM that if you lie to her, she will not trust you.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Nirvana,
> 
> I know why you did it - but you cannot lie about financial stuff and also expect her to trust you.
> 
> ...


I see what you are saying, but my wife's personality is that she is easily influenced by other people. There just needs to be a strong convincing personality to make a case and she comes home thinking that it is the best thing since sliced bread. That is how a friend of hers convinced her (and some other ladies) through slow brainwashing that her husband was the best since he was a superstar at work, and he came home and took care of the kids, so she could relax and enjoy life (she didn't work in a job outside the house). It's only now that my wife realizes that it was she who was lucky as she now has a good career that she loves (I had to goad her into moving out of the SAHM phase). So the point I am making is that she realizes things much later.

My wife does not know much about finance or investing or how the market behaves. Discussing this with her when she is under stress will not work and could lead to an argument. She might say "I've worked all year and you LOST more than double of my salary in the market???". Of course, the reality would be that I wouldn't have lost it unless I sold the stock which was what she would ask me to do. For now, I feel it may be better if we did not discuss certain issues because it would annoy me greatly if she said "Mary from work said her husband was going to sell all his stock and keep cash". Maybe once the trust builds up more, I can tell be more honest.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

nirvana said:


> I see what you are saying, but my wife's personality is that she is easily influenced by other people. There just needs to be a strong convincing personality to make a case and she comes home thinking that it is the best thing since sliced bread. That is how a friend of hers convinced her (and some other ladies) through slow brainwashing that her husband was the best since he was a superstar at work, and he came home and took care of the kids, so she could relax and enjoy life (she didn't work in a job outside the house). It's only now that my wife realizes that it was she who was lucky as she now has a good career that she loves (I had to goad her into moving out of the SAHM phase). So the point I am making is that she realizes things much later.
> 
> My wife does not know much about finance or investing or how the market behaves. Discussing this with her when she is under stress will not work and could lead to an argument. She might say "I've worked all year and you LOST more than double of my salary in the market???". Of course, the reality would be that I wouldn't have lost it unless I sold the stock which was what she would ask me to do. For now, I feel it may be better if we did not discuss certain issues because it would annoy me greatly if she said "Mary from work said her husband was going to sell all his stock and keep cash". Maybe once the trust builds up more, I can tell be more honest.


Honesty can build that trust, nirvana.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Create trust by demonstrating competence.

Show her the graph of your portfolio value over time - do NOT - bring up the conversation where she asked you to liquidate. 

Stick with: Markets are volatile. At the nadir - we were down here this year - lots of folks panicked and got crushed back here - point to the low point on the graph. We showed confidence - and are now here.

This isn't to be a debate - it's to educate. 

And not a: Look at how smart I am - type thing

More of a: This is how markets function over time and look at the reward we've gotten from having faith in the long term performance of the market. 

If she asks if you were afraid - say whatever is true and add: if we were just about to retire - that's one thing - but we have a long road ahead before we need to touch these funds. 





nirvana said:


> I see what you are saying, but my wife's personality is that she is easily influenced by other people. There just needs to be a strong convincing personality to make a case and she comes home thinking that it is the best thing since sliced bread. That is how a friend of hers convinced her (and some other ladies) through slow brainwashing that her husband was the best since he was a superstar at work, and he came home and took care of the kids, so she could relax and enjoy life (she didn't work in a job outside the house). It's only now that my wife realizes that it was she who was lucky as she now has a good career that she loves (I had to goad her into moving out of the SAHM phase). So the point I am making is that she realizes things much later.
> 
> My wife does not know much about finance or investing or how the market behaves. Discussing this with her when she is under stress will not work and could lead to an argument. She might say "I've worked all year and you LOST more than double of my salary in the market???". Of course, the reality would be that I wouldn't have lost it unless I sold the stock which was what she would ask me to do. For now, I feel it may be better if we did not discuss certain issues because it would annoy me greatly if she said "Mary from work said her husband was going to sell all his stock and keep cash". Maybe once the trust builds up more, I can tell be more honest.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Two things. One, women do tend to feel under siege. Be it our upbringing to be nice or not be aggressive, be it our smaller stature, be it men's more natural tendency to be aggressive...whatever the case, women often feel like they have to...protect themselves. 

I liken it to men are dogs and women are cats. Dogs will just bound on over to you, no concern, and jump on you and have fun. Cats will instantly analyze the situation, put their tail to attention, see where the safest route out is - in case they need it - and then, if they sense no overt danger, will cautiously pay attention and possibly even interact with you. Always on guard. I think it's in our genes from caveman days.

Two, about the kids. I always made my daughter go outside in the summer. No plans, no toys, nothing. Just told her to get outside and find something to do. She'd explore, read a book, lie under a tree and watch clouds go by, go to a friend's house, take a walk, look for frogs...whatever. THAT, in my opinion, is PARAMOUNT to a kid. Having your time allotted all your life only creates a young adult who simply can't function.

When she was a teenager, she always had tons of friends over. We were 'that' house. If they ever got bored and wandered downstairs, just milling around, I'd go in there and say 'Out! Get out! Everyone go outside!' Most of the kids would look at me like I was crazy. "Outside, what's there to do outside?!"

Turns out, they found LOTS of things to do outside. Go for walks, play games, hang out in different groups, walk the dogs...one time they went walking around the lakes at around midnight (couple of miles) and the water sprinklers were running and the kids were afraid to proceed. Well, I had always taught my daughter that it's more fun to GET wet than to AVOID getting wet. So she just went and started walking down the sidewalks, in the water, and they soon all followed. By the time they got home, they were all soaked and laughing and having a blast. Some of them later told me that was the most fun they'd ever had in their lives.

So, whatever you have to do, get your kids some freedom! Let them be away from books and computers and phones and just THINK. Get that creativity started.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The voice of an excellent parent. 




turnera said:


> Two things. One, women do tend to feel under siege. Be it our upbringing to be nice or not be aggressive, be it our smaller stature, be it men's more natural tendency to be aggressive...whatever the case, women often feel like they have to...protect themselves.
> 
> I liken it to men are dogs and women are cats. Dogs will just bound on over to you, no concern, and jump on you and have fun. Cats will instantly analyze the situation, put their tail to attention, see where the safest route out is - in case they need it - and then, if they sense no overt danger, will cautiously pay attention and possibly even interact with you. Always on guard. I think it's in our genes from caveman days.
> 
> ...


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Nirvana,
> 
> I know why you did it - but you cannot lie about financial stuff and also expect her to trust you.
> 
> ...


Well, she does not understand things like "correction"... for her its a simple matter of buying a stock and it needs to go up and we make money. If it does not, then why buy in the first place? Risk/Reward etc does not register and I feel I should not burden her with it. She does not really care about it too much either and does not want any power over our finances either. She is just worried that after working so hard and making smart choices, she does not want us to lose it all. There are a few horror stories in our circle where people have lost a lot of money in the 2001 and 2008 crashes. I tell her that we can forget about a good retirement if we don't invest in the market. Just our salaries won't cut it long term.

Every now and then she asks how much we have and I tell her the net worth and she remembers how much it was the previous time she asked and she's happy that we are up. As you say, I have to be tactful in how and how much I tell her.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

She's been sick with throat ache and fever for a few days which has also upset my plans of getting into her pants.  It's been 2-3 weeks now and I am getting fidgety. First it was her period, then some guests, then this.

Anyway, I texted her at work yesterday and told her not to worry about dinner and that I would make it. So I made a combination of leftovers and new stuff and it was a good comfort food kind of meal and she was happy and thanked me for it with a hug. I realize that if I step in during these "tough" times, it has a lot of value to her. Earlier, I would do it too but I guess not in a way that would touch a woman's heart? 

I think my 'strategy' of just demonstrating love/kindness even when she was nasty to me is working because she seems to be melting. The concert of her favorite band was a big surprise though she seemed to try to sabotage it on the way there.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

OK here's a question.

I was on the train on the commute in to work and my wife was driving to work. She called me. She dropped off our daughter at her friend's place for the day. The friend is a SAHM and in generally very lazy and laid-back. She has no ambition and no goal for her future. She spends her day reading novels, cooking and has started an at-home cake business with a friend but is not ambitious about it. 

So when my wife dropped our daughter off, the other lady had just woken up (8am). My wife remarked to me that the other lady was "so lucky" that she could "relax". Until 2 years ago, my wife was a SAHM and was in a similar position of living life on her own schedule. I replied and told her that she (my wife) was the lucky one because she has a career, a goal in life and things to do which were mentally challenging and satisfying. I did not talk about the money. She did not say anything and we talked about other things.

Now I wonder if I should have just said "yes" and let her continue in the mode she was in while listening? We both know that my wife is the lucky one, but maybe she wanted to vent because she was stressed out right now? The downside is if I didn't say anything then I would be agreeing that the other woman was lucky and had a better life.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

nirvana said:


> I think my 'strategy' of just demonstrating love/kindness even when she was nasty to me is working because she seems to be melting.


Yes, this is good. Keep it up.

What is with your focus on her working? More money for you to invest in the market?

Of course it is more relaxing to be home. The main advantage, as I see it, of working is that a woman who is financially independent is free to leave her husband at any time. And that is a very serious, and quite worthwhile, advantage.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

jld said:


> Yes, this is good. Keep it up.
> 
> What is with your focus on her working? More money for you to invest in the market?
> 
> Of course it is more relaxing to be home. The main advantage, as I see it, of working is that a woman who is financially independent is free to leave her husband at any time. And that is a very serious, and quite worthwhile, advantage.


No, I have not put in any new money into the market in 15 years. The only inputs are the 5% taken from my (and now our) paychecks which go into 401k accounts which then I have rolled into an IRA. All her paychecks have come to our joint checking account and we use it for monthly expenses.

I would like for her to work for the following reasons. Order is not important.

1. She is academically intelligent and topped her class in high school but had some issues when it mattered (high school) and did poorly and had to go for a degree that is virtually useless. I got her into a Masters program after we got married in a field that can give a good career. Her sister was the opposite, she did poorly earlier but well when it mattered and has treated my wife badly during those years. That led to confidence issues in my wife while growing up and after kids, she was a SAHM for 10 years while the sister worked. There's some sibling rivalry going on there. This has increased her self-confidence and she does not feel bad when her sister talks about her career. 

2. Her time was occupied when the kids were little, but they are older now and don't need her that much. So what does she do with her time? It will get worse as they leave home and go to college. She cannot find a job at that time. She has to start now. She now has something to occupy her time.

3. She understands what I have gone through to support the family. A job seems easy from the outside, but dealing with the politics and things not under your control is hard.

4. Extra cash does not hurt. I earn well and invest well, but now I can be less watchful and spend more on luxuries. She also spends more on clothes, shoes, makeup etc and feels good that she is earning that money.

Her ability to leave me was never a consideration.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

nirvana said:


> No, I have not put in any new money into the market in 15 years. The only inputs are the 5% taken from my (and now our) paychecks which go into 401k accounts which then I have rolled into an IRA. All her paychecks have come to our joint checking account and we use it for monthly expenses. Which frees up money for that retirement saving.
> 
> I would like for her to work for the following reasons. Order is not important.
> 
> ...


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

> Which frees up money for that retirement saving.


Sure, in the end it is "our" money as a collective pool. I don't believe in separate accounts in a marriage. Maybe naive, but that is a signal of you-vs-me attitude which I think shows lack of trust. She has access to all accounts and cards and can spend it as needed.



> Can totally see how a career would increase her self-confidence.





> Some women do volunteer work. It is also nice to be available to kids as needed. Much like your in-laws were available to help with child care over the summer.


Yes, but that wouldn't be as satisfying at her age. Volunteer work is good as a side thing, not as a 9-5 thing. She isn't Bill Gates' wife.  Besides, in the Indian community, it isn't looked upon in a very good way unless you are stinking rich which we are not. Even my wife, she likes volunteer work but only occasionally and when she feels like it. Maybe we both will do more when we hit 60 in some decades.



> You both have issues with materialism, no? The extra money facilitates that. Not that that is a bad thing. Just an observation.


I don't think I have an "issue". I don't have a problem of wanting to compete with anybody on materialistic things. I buy only when I can pay for it and if I want it. I think that is a good way to live life because no one can manipulate me. My wife has a slight issue though she denies it. It's not that she blows up too much money, the problem is an outside person can easily influence her and a good salesperson can sell her any idea. If an older woman with kids in high school says you have to put your kids in band to get into a good college, she will start to push that idea on me. Until I tell her that good colleges don't care if you did band or not. Her intentions are usually good. Over the years, I've had to resist so many things she was convinced about because some friend suggested it. She grudgingly agrees.




> But it will make it easier for her to do that should she ever want to. Again, not a bad thing, at all! I think it is very good that financially independent women have that freedom. I certainly want that for my own daughter. And she wants it for herself.


Yes, why not. If she didn't want to live with me, I will not stop her. But if she leaves, she isn't going to be allowed back.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

turnera said:


> Two things. One, women do tend to feel under siege. Be it our upbringing to be nice or not be aggressive, be it our smaller stature, be it men's more natural tendency to be aggressive...whatever the case, women often feel like they have to...protect themselves.
> 
> I liken it to men are dogs and women are cats. Dogs will just bound on over to you, no concern, and jump on you and have fun. Cats will instantly analyze the situation, put their tail to attention, see where the safest route out is - in case they need it - and then, if they sense no overt danger, will cautiously pay attention and possibly even interact with you. Always on guard. I think it's in our genes from caveman days.
> 
> ...



Nice post turnera.
I do think that my wife has felt under siege over the years. That has made her say and do many irrational things probably because she is trying to protect herself. During our fights, I can tell from the look on her face and how her voice gets when I have touched a point deep and vulnerable. I instantly back off. I hope we never get to that situation again.

I fully agree with you about the kids. Just go out and play. Get wet, get muddy, play in the leaves, do anything that won't get you killed. I have no problem with the kids goofing off and wasting time and day dreaming because they are good kids and we need to give them some leeway. My wife is also that way. Where we differ is that she tries to pander to their every demand and she cannot say no. This she justifies with "I am a mom". Being a SAHM for so long gave her too much time to think about this and she cannot tear herself away. I also think that after a certain age, kids should be made to find ways to keep themselves occupied. They should find hobbies. Not have mom and dad structure their lives and constantly nag them with "activities". Her sister is the total opposite. She doesn't care what the kids are doing or eating. Her husband takes care of that.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Create trust by demonstrating competence.
> 
> Show her the graph of your portfolio value over time - do NOT - bring up the conversation where she asked you to liquidate.
> 
> ...


I thought about this a bit more over the past day and still feel that what I did was the best thing to do.

From my past experience, my wife isn't the most mature of people. I cannot completely trust her to do the right thing always regardless of anything, but she is most likely do the thing that makes her popular and liked. This is a 'disease' that afflicts her entire side of the family. They always say the things that people want to hear so that makes me not trust their words and not go to her father for any advice.

I used to tell her everything a few years ago and paid the price. I would tell her about the idiot bosses I worked for, workplace politics, difficulties in this or that thinking that she was my wife and had the right to know more than anyone else. Imagine my surprise that after many years she's developed a very negative view of me, thinking that I was some sort of a loser who always got into trouble! Then she was hearing a few other Indian women show off about their husbands telling them how awesome they were, how they were going here and there on vacation and she felt that she was stuck with me. The reality of course was very different (written in a different thread) but she isn't mature enough to investigate. To her, everything that glitters is gold. If someone drives around in a Mercedes, he is "rich". If someone buys a $750k house, he is "successful", without considering the fact that his loan amount may be 95%. She has gotten better than earlier, but I still don't trust her enough that she can handle everything. 

So this year there was a time when I was $150k down. That is a lot and I had butterflies in my stomach but I decided to ride it through. If I had told my wife, she would have freaked out and made my life hell.

She also lacks empathy. When I was going through difficulties, in managing a bad job and doing an advanced degree at the same time, there was no sympathy. Only comparisons and complaining. So I thought that maybe once she starts working, she may understand that not everything can be controlled and in your hands. Today she complains about this or that but still never makes the connection and appreciates what I went through for her and the kids a few years ago. Just today she was groaning about how god was putting her through testing times. What is the issue? She is very busy at work and is running a fever. She's not able to spoil and pamper the kids like earlier (she could do that thanks to the platform I made for her, but she cannot see it).

Anyway, not worth the aggravation. Once she grows up, then maybe. If I remind her of what she's done and said she justifies it saying she was "naive". Whatever... What you say is ideal, but in reality there are other things to consider. Small steps.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

End of the month and PMS is approaching. She was irritable yesterday and I had a lapse of sorts and we had an argument but not a big one. 

As a part of taking care of myself, I signed up at a gym yesterday. Also got a trainer and will start next Saturday. Teaming with a co worker my age. I am lucky that I have things that I cannot work on to improve like height (6'1) and full hair and no paunch, decent-looking and generally thinner physique. There are things that I can work on to improve and those are biceps, chest, arms, shoulders etc. That is what I am going to do.

I just ran a half marathon last weekend, so I am keeping fit.

In a few months I should look different and hopefully much better.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

So her period arrived a day later than I had anticipated and last week she was out on training from her company, about a block away from my work place. So like a boyfriend, I had her come out for lunch and I took her to some nice new places she had never been to before. Not the same chain restaurants we see near our place. She said she enjoyed both the places. Then on Friday evening, she got done early, so I left work too and took her for a nice walk around the downtown area. It's beautiful and the weather was great and she was in a good mood. She wanted some makeup item which was about 1.5 miles away and I said we could go get it. It is not available near our home and she was worried about it getting late, so I said it was okay we didn't know when we would get a chance to walk around here, just the two of us. We went to that mall and I bought her what she wanted for about $90. Rode back home with her. 

Weekend she was in a very good mood on Saturday but got nasty and mean on Sunday (yesterday). She wanted us all to go to a forest preserve area and play and the kids were not much interested so she was being a nag and yelling at them. Then after that we went to a grocery store and out of the blue she asks me how much money we have in our checking account. I told her and she said we have enough money so we needed to go on vacations. I told her that a credit card bill was approaching in a day and that amount would be cut quite a bit. "But I am also earning these days!". I had to tell her again that while she made money, she needed to remember that there were taxes to pay, child care bills, gas bills, her clothes that she bought, all additional because of the new job. So our net gain was not as much as she thought. That got her angry and she demanded to know how much was spent on clothing. I said I did not have the figures with me but they were much more than earlier. Then the silent treatment began. I didn't talk to her either. I was watching TV and she came up to taunt me. I did not reply. She began to rant so I increased the TV volume. It was a funny situation so I smiled a bit when she said something dumb. She said that I had an ugly smile - no reply again. She was trying her best to push me into exploding so she could blame me for everything. Not biting.

So this morning, it's the same, everything silent. She calls me on the way to work to threaten divorce!! She said I could go ahead and find a lawyer. Again, I know she does not want it but it's a technique of blackmail she learned from her father who is also crooked like this. I calmly said okay, send out an email to both our parents and CC me on it. "Are you sure that's what you want???", she screams. Her trick did not work. She started to shout and I hung up. Then she called again and I was calm all through and said if that is what she wanted, she could go ahead. Then the blackmail started "This will be it... if you say yes... there is no more coming back...". I said okay, she could go ahead. Then she threatened to set the house on fire and I hung up on her again! I don't respond to blackmail. I called home and the phone rang, so I am pretty sure the house is still intact.

Then she tried calling a few times and I switched off my phone. I've made the mistake in the past of allowing such stupid behavior so she thinks she can do it all the time to get her way. If she wants to talk to me like an adult, then I will listen. Otherwise, no.

I have failed to "woo" her and it seems to me that I make all the moves and she just accepts and enjoys them but does nothing from her side. I can do a 100 things that she likes and I do 1 thing that goes against her wishes and she tars me as a bad person and I am back to square one. 

On the happier side, as I said, I decided to love myself more!  I joined a nice gym close by and hired a trainer as well. I had gotten accustomed to spending money on the wife and kids but never on myself. Low self esteem or a godly person?? Answer is low self esteem, I hate to say. I am a tall guy, quite good looking as per what people say, maintain my weight, but the thing lacking is being more muscular. The time to change that has arrived. I am doing this for myself and no one else. My mother had been egging me on and asking me every week whether I joined. My wife on the other hand did not seem very comfortable and questioned the high cost (this, when she is perfectly okay to pay high cost for our son's sports sessions). Too bad for her. Blood is thicker than water. I get a decent amount of attention from the ladies around and things can only get better. Lord knows, I need an ego boost on that front.

@turnera, a special note to you, you are one of my favorite posters here and have been very helpful and I love to hear your perspective even on issues where we do not agree. Thanks!!;


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

It is a difficult proposition to untrain the spoiled.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Just WOW! That's my favorite post from you of all time! Maybe from all posters! You did everything right. Well, maybe not grinning at her while she's ranting; perhaps to have left to go buy yourself a new cologne or something, lol. Just wow. 

If you keep this up, unless she's got real mental problems and this isn't just PMS, you are going to have her sitting in your lap before long.

Way to go, nirvana. (and honestly, I dreaded opening your thread because I thought it was going to be more of the same!)

I might suggest, however, once you sense her PMS winding down (and not a day before), to stop on your way home and pick up some small, thoughtful gift for her, to let her know you still love her, like a special brand of rice or something. Like I collect glass penguins. If my H found one of those and brought it home to me, I'd be over the moon. NOTHING big, just a tiny 'I thought of you on the way home' kind of thing. Stay strong, but remind her you love her.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

Now she's texting me to say how sorry she is, how it will ruin our parents life, our poor poor kids etc etc. I am tired of the same drama. I told her we will be room mates from now on and I was canceling my participation in all family engagements like parties and events and if she wants divorce, we will move towards it. I sent her a screenshot of her 'demand' for divorce and said that I will be sending it to her parents and mine.

If there is anything she is afraid about it is how she is perceived by others (she doesn't care about how she is perceived by me). I don't think she's realized anything, she is just afraid of looking bad. 

Time to call out her bluff.

If I lose her, I am okay with it at this point. My dream was to spend my life with a mature woman who has a career, wants kids and who I could share happiness and sadness of life with. Instead I end up with a woman-child who wants me to pamper and spoil her like her worthless moronic father did.

She will lose a good man who took good care of her. Her loss.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

You won't.

She is insecure. The last think she wants is to lose the person who gives her status.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

nirvana said:


> If I lose her, I am okay with it at this point. My dream was to spend my life with a mature woman who has a career, wants kids and who I could share happiness and sadness of life with. Instead I end up with a woman-child who wants me to pamper and spoil her like her worthless moronic father did.
> 
> She will lose a good man who took good care of her. Her loss.


:smthumbup::yay::toast:


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> You won't.
> 
> She is insecure. The last think she wants is to lose the person who gives her status.


So the real question, let's say she steps away from her "demands" for the exact reason you mention, she would lose her status. She makes some changes in order to appease Nirvana. I would hope there is a line @nirvana has though, where odds are she will regress back to her normal behavior, that he just says enough is enough and moves on. Sounds like he has enough going on for him, why continue to subject himself to this type of abusive behavior?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

You sure don't like her very much. Why ARE you staying with someone you consider dumb and immature?


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

turnera said:


> Just WOW! That's my favorite post from you of all time! Maybe from all posters! You did everything right. Well, maybe not grinning at her while she's ranting; perhaps to have left to go buy yourself a new cologne or something, lol. Just wow.
> 
> If you keep this up, unless she's got real mental problems and this isn't just PMS, you are going to have her sitting in your lap before long.
> 
> ...


turnera, I was surprised to read your post.

Are you sure? I do all this for her and she tells me that she enjoyed it, but she does not wait a moment before slapping me in the face when she is mad (not a real slap, but figuratively). I think she has some sort of issues where she wants to be pampered and flattered just like how her daddy used to do when she was his favorite daughter. Of course later, that scumbag dad of hers switched horses and made his younger daughter his favorite and quite openly too. He is the type who senses the direction of the wind and jumps on the horse that is 'winning'. In his mind my wife was a SAHM for long so was not a 'winner'. His other daughter worked all through but did not care about raising her kids, so she is a 'winner'. This makes me believe that he is a #[email protected]#$%@. Anyway...

So my question to you is what is the point of getting her a gift? She will accept it and then be happy for a day and then tear me down the next day if I disagree with her on something. 

Here is what caused it. I do all the work outside the house that needs doing. Our fence fell so I had to fix it. Sure, I could call the repair guy, but I am an engineer and want to be an example for the kids to do things themselves (like my dad) and I love the satisfaction of building/fixing. So my wife calls our friends kids for a sleepover. Our house is a mess as always. Her way is to clean up and then let it fall apart by littering it. Then clean up. My way is to clean up once and maintain it and not litter. So if I clean up, then she litters it so I have given up. So the kids were coming, so if their parents see the mess, she will look bad, so she badgers me to help her clean up. She is on her knees swabbing the floors! I refused, as I had to fix the fence before winter set in and I was not going to clean the house to impress a 12 year old kid. That pissed her off and she took it to be that I "was not listening to her". Yes, I was not, and I told her why. I was not going off to sit on my ass, I was doing something important.

I don't feel much love for her at this point. Maybe I am a bit disturbed right now. It's hard to be dispassionate when she tears me down so often. I think a wife should encourage and build her husband. Give him confidence. That is what I hear at least, why am I being pulled down every time?

I am going to build a life without her. Just make more friends, more hobbies. My new thing is to become more fit. No girlfriend or anything, that is not something I will look for. Maybe I need to send her to counseling or check her hormone levels. The "I am on my period" excuse is tiresome. She is nice and sweet to her coworkers and friend when on her period, why the nastiness to me? Not acceptable.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> You sure don't like her very much. Why ARE you staying with someone you consider dumb and immature?


It's not easy NS. At least at this moment, I don't feel much love, that is true. We have been married over 15 years. 2 kids, sweet and doing well, wonderful kids. 

She is intelligent but when she gets in a mood, she is stark raving crazy. She was sweet on Saturday but insane on Sunday. She likes to pretend that she is from a "family that travels a lot" but when her parents visited us recently, they did not want to go anywhere and when her sister visited last month, she wanted to stay home. Sounds like a facade to me. Her dad got a job perk when he was working and they did some traveling in India back in her childhood. That is the only reason they traveled a bit. Now, she is a pain in the ass to everyone at home wanting to go out. I tell her to go by herself if she wants to. We have a toxic couple around here and the wife keeps telling my wife about the great places they go. He is in debt quite a bit and I am not willing to do that just to please her.

So it is a hard decision. For now I feel like I want to be room mates and slowly mentally disengage with her. Now SHE will have to please me, not the other way around. I realize that all her attempts to make me happy stopped 10 years ago when our oldest was born.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> So the real question, let's say she steps away from her "demands" for the exact reason you mention, she would lose her status. She makes some changes in order to appease Nirvana. I would hope there is a line @nirvana has though, where odds are she will regress back to her normal behavior, that he just says enough is enough and moves on. Sounds like he has enough going on for him, why continue to subject himself to this type of abusive behavior?


Same situation mid Aug and I was fixing the fence and she came to talk. Rather, to get me to explode so she can moan about how awful I am. I let her talk and just played defense until she punched me on the shoulder. I told her that one more and I would call the cops. Then she promised she would change and I gave her 1 month to make pro-active changes. I see none of those and she's gone back to her crazy ways after just 2 weeks.

So I don't have confidence that I can win her over to a level where she will think that she has a good deal with a good level headed non-flashy person. She seems to be enamored with flashy guys (talk big, show off, vacations) who show off but are hollow inside (lots of debt, lie about what they do).


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

nirvana said:


> Same situation mid Aug and I was fixing the fence and she came to talk. Rather, to get me to explode so she can moan about how awful I am. I let her talk and just played defense until she punched me on the shoulder. I told her that one more and I would call the cops. Then she promised she would change and I gave her 1 month to make pro-active changes. I see none of those and she's gone back to her crazy ways after just 2 weeks.
> 
> So I don't have confidence that I can win her over to a level where she will think that she has a good deal with a good level headed non-flashy person. She seems to be enamored with flashy guys (talk big, show off, vacations) who show off but are hollow inside (lots of debt, lie about what they do).


If push comes to shove, are you ready to move on without her?


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> If push comes to shove, are you ready to move on without her?


I wish I could say an emphatic YES but I am not there yet. If she wants to go then I would not stop her I guess.

She is now texting me a lot apologizing but the arrogance still shines through. Telling me how I have benefited from her, how she has made me proud, how she looks good for me etc etc. It's a form of humble brag as I see it.

I told her to go ahead and send out the email or I can do it, whatever she wants. I don't know where this will end up, but I don't feel much affection for her right now. She will have to come and fix things.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

nirvana said:


> I wish I could say an emphatic YES but I am not there yet. If she wants to go then I would not stop her I guess.
> 
> She is now texting me a lot apologizing but the arrogance still shines through. *Telling me how I have benefited from her, how she has made me proud, how she looks good for me etc etc. It's a form of humble brag as I see it.*
> 
> I told her to go ahead and send out the email or I can do it, whatever she wants. I don't know where this will end up, but I don't feel much affection for her right now. She will have to come and fix things.


Yikes at the bolded. So basically you need to stay with her for your pride 

Seriously Nirvana, best of luck. I am not one to advocate divorce lightly, especially when there are children involved. Just hope you do what is best for you, you only get one chance at this whole life thing.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

nirvana said:


> I wish I could say an emphatic YES but I am not there yet. If she wants to go then I would not stop her I guess.
> 
> She is now texting me a lot apologizing but the arrogance still shines through. Telling me how I have benefited from her, how she has made me proud, how she looks good for me etc etc. _It's a form of humble brag as I see it._


OR she knows you don't like her, think she is stupid, and is trying to see herself to you.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Publicly humiliating anyone is a bad idea. 

Doing it to someone who is insecure - is sadistic. 

Doing it to an insecure person who is part of a socially competitive culture is even more sadistic. 

I want to be perfectly clear here - anyone would find her manipulative threats: to divorce, to burn down the house - upsetting. 

That said - she did not escalate to divorce - all by herself. 

Next time, mute the tv, give her your undivided attention and ask why she's so upset with you. 

Turning up the volume and smiling - when she's already losing it - is a type of passive but extreme escalation. 

I believe that it is not intentional, however you are injecting a lot of negative emotional energy into these situations. 





nirvana said:


> Now she's texting me to say how sorry she is, how it will ruin our parents life, our poor poor kids etc etc. I am tired of the same drama. I told her we will be room mates from now on and I was canceling my participation in all family engagements like parties and events and if she wants divorce, we will move towards it. I sent her a screenshot of her 'demand' for divorce and said that I will be sending it to her parents and mine.
> 
> If there is anything she is afraid about it is how she is perceived by others (she doesn't care about how she is perceived by me). I don't think she's realized anything, she is just afraid of looking bad.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Nirvana,

You might ask your TAM friends how they think you perceive N2. 

I'll give you the maximum level of abstraction on this:
- You love her appearance and are physically attracted to her 
- You don't especially respect or like her behavior and the underlying values (money, social optics, a comfort with dirty fighting) driving that behavior.

On a 10 scale, I'd say you rate her:
- physically (8-9)
- behaviorally (2-4)

And - FWIW - based on the way she behaves - I would guess that many of your male readers (including myself) would rate her the same way. 





nirvana said:


> Same situation mid Aug and I was fixing the fence and she came to talk. Rather, to get me to explode so she can moan about how awful I am. I let her talk and just played defense until she punched me on the shoulder. I told her that one more and I would call the cops. Then she promised she would change and I gave her 1 month to make pro-active changes. I see none of those and she's gone back to her crazy ways after just 2 weeks.
> 
> So I don't have confidence that I can win her over to a level where she will think that she has a good deal with a good level headed non-flashy person. She seems to be enamored with flashy guys (talk big, show off, vacations) who show off but are hollow inside (lots of debt, lie about what they do).


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> Publicly humiliating anyone is a bad idea.
> 
> Doing it to someone who is insecure - is sadistic.
> 
> ...


I'm betting my weight in cat food that Nirvana has tried the humane approach and it didn't work. 

The soft talk and undivided attention work till the next explosion cycle.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

If you go back and read my post, I said to wait until the LAST day of her PMS, and THEN give her a small token. $5 or less. As a way of saying 'I know you get crazy and I know the hormones take over, but I'm still here. I just won't accept the crazy anymore.'
And I firmly disagree with you doing ANYTHING wrt her saying divorce while she is in the middle of PMS. My friend locked all her kids out of their house once when she had PMS before she got treated. One, there's no point discussing anything important while the hormones are in charge. Two, it's a horrible idea! Would you force her to have sex while she was drunk? Of course not, because she wouldn't be in her right mind and couldn't make a logical thought-out decision; this is no different. So stop baiting her and stop threatening to do ANYthing until PMS is over. 

Once it is, tell her that you've reached a tipping point. That you now see that you don't deserve to be her punching bag anymore and you will NOT be her punching bag anymore, so if she isn't willing to go to her doctor and get something to control the PMS, you will simply be removing yourself from her vicinity every time it comes around so as to protect yourself from her. She doesn't have to agree or even like it; it's YOUR boundary and YOUR consequence you enact if she goes crazy.

But you have no business threatening to out her to her parents while she's in the middle of PMS. Stop it.

Finally, hers are learned behavior from 10-20 years of living with her father. It's literally all.she.knows. So that's what she does. You see that, right? If you were taught to walk backwards until you graduated high school and then suddenly everyone expected you to start walking forwards, how easy would it be to overcome your 18-year history of walking backwards? Think about it.

What you CAN do about it is show her strength. Strong, consistent belief in yourself, in her, in your family. Strong, consistent boundaries over what's tolerated to you AND to your children. If she screams at a child, you take the child and go somewhere else until she controls herself. If you and the kids have to to a hotel every month for three days, do it. (and let her parents know why you're doing it, and urge them to get her to a doctor) Strong, consistent boundaries and consequences. Strong consistent messaging to her about what's acceptable and what's not and what will happen if she doesn't listen. All while NOT getting overheated, emotional, defensive, or snarky.

If you take this path, you will see, maybe not soon but in the next year or two, real change in her. And it will include RELIEF that she's finally with a man who will RULE his family and keep them safe and calm and happy.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

When dealing with PBSC Syndrome (persistent bat sheet crazy) removing yourself from the environment only results in the PBSC recharging. That's because they do not focus at all on their actions, or reflect upon them. 

Not sure she's full blown PBSC but if she trends towards it things will not go as suggested. First time in hotel fine, then a month later she goes off for a week - or leaves for a week...

Strength is great unless - surprise - they're PBSC. Then perceived strength morphs into perceived opposition.

When someone is raging it's unlikely they will listen to rational discourse. What I found useful was a basic CBT technique where you present in detail what to do - expectations wise - and walk them thru the situation. If they become emotional or unstable you deal immediately with the concern without fully escalating it if possible.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Only hers isn't persistent, john. Only during PMS.

And him removing himself (not her) and the kids will do a few things. Teach her, even just a little bit. And help him KEEP from falling completely out of love with her. And it will also let the kids see that you do NOT have to accept such horrid treatment, so that they don't carry it into their adulthoods. Also, it will help him keep from becoming a fulltime doormat after losing all respect for himself.

And that advice comes straight from my IC who said I should not hang around if my H is going to go off on me. For all the reasons above.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I'm not fully buying the idea of "only PMS" bad behavior. If she works outside the house, does she go off the deep end like that with her colleagues? 

My view on walking away is based on first hand experience with a diagnosed BPD. The kind of craziness that after I walk away she continues to talk to herself and "me" for an hour. Then starts calling, threatening, the whole nine yards.

It could be worthwhile to try to see her reaction actually.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

BPD is not PMS.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I'm well aware of that  but considering she's not had a psych evaluation I'm hedging my bets. I spent a few months as an undergraduate analyzing monthly cycle physical impact (blood flow mostly) and know the hormonal changes too but this, IMHO, is well beyond that. 

Just IMHO.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

I recall he has reported that during PMS he is the only one she does this to. Not friends, not co workers. 

I think he did a great job. Re the turning the TV up and smiling.... not everyone is perfect. I'm sure as a human, he will have moments where she does get to him and his behavior isn't perfect.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

And nobody finds it a bit strange that she's able to control her "PMS" with everyone but him?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Not at all. You marry the person you feel most safe to damage. Everyone else? You need their approval and to play along.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

turnera said:


> Not at all. You marry the person you feel most safe to damage. Everyone else? You need their approval and to play along.


"Feel most safe to damage"... Does this sound like PMS to you? 

Maybe PMDD? 

My experience has been that BSC people aren't necessarily straight arrows with everyone else. The same inability to regulate emotions is impacted, whether with your "feel free to damage" whipping boy, other family, or the unfortunate coworker... high functioning BSC people may tone it down and manage to keep a job etc but not without fireworks...

Much could be learned by simple behavioral experiments  incidentally.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

turnera said:


> Not at all. You marry the person you feel most safe to damage. Everyone else? You need their approval and to play along.


Yes, for some people, but people who do this are disordered or BSC.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> Nirvana,
> 
> You might ask your TAM friends how they think you perceive N2.
> 
> ...


Yes, I would say that it's about right. 
There are several behavioral flaws that I think quite serious that I am trying to change/improve, but have had no success.

Maybe the biggest of them all is "what will people think?". All her actions are driven by this fear of what people will think of her. A related one is to keep up appearances of being successful/rich rather than actually be successful/rich. 

I am on the other side, I don't give an F about what our neighbors think about me.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

john117 said:


> And nobody finds it a bit strange that she's able to control her "PMS" with everyone but him?


Yes, she is nice and sweet with everyone else. Her coworkers, boss, friends, parents, neighbors, etc.

I brought this up and her excuse is she is like this with people she is close to (her husband). So basically what she said was she loves me, so she behaves like a ***** with me. She does not love her coworkers and boss, so she is nice to them. I just laughed loudly.

So yes, her bad behavior is centered around her period. She is now back to being nice and pleasant and her period is almost over if not already over.

I think she feels miserable/grumpy during her period and needs an outlet, and I am a safe one to dump on. She cannot dump on her boss, she will get fired. I will not kick her out because she yelled at me.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

MEM, she does not mean divorce, she is just playing me. She wonders why I don't explode on her anymore, so she is upping the ante to get me to talk and to even yell at her. She has a great thing going, she will be a total stupid fool to divorce me. What will happen if she leaves, she gets half of what we have and then has to move into an apartment, have her friends pity her, and be alone for the rest of her life. It isn't very easy for late 30s Indian women with kids to get married again. There may be men of other races who may be interested, but most Indian women (from India) do not feel it will work out. 

So no, she did not mean that she wanted divorce. So when I calmly asked her to send out an email to our respective parents, she realized it did not work and I did not de-escalate as she had hoped (so she does not have to feel like she lost) so she began to emotionally blackmail me telling me how much she had done for me and is that all the love I had for her etc etc. It's a stupid game that I don't play no mo.

If I ask her why she is upset she says "You don't do what I want you do to". The answer is yes and no. If she asks me to load the dishwasher, I will do it. If she asks me to make coffee for her, I make it. If she wants me to clean the house to impress a 12 year old kid, I will not. The reason is she is very messy on other days and does not care about tidiness. Why all the fake-ness? It's not that I am lazy, I have my plate full doing things like fixing the fence, the refrigerator, paint the window trim, the concrete etc etc. It's don't want to enable her in her "what will people think" issues. 

You are right that turning on the volume was not a good move on my part. I was angry at her and didn't want to shout but the result is the same so you are right there. I need to grow a bit.



MEM2020 said:


> Publicly humiliating anyone is a bad idea.
> 
> Doing it to someone who is insecure - is sadistic.
> 
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

nirvana said:


> I think she feels miserable/grumpy during her period and needs an outlet, and I am a safe one to dump on. She cannot dump on her boss, she will get fired. I will not kick her out because she yelled at me.


In other words, she's able to regulate her emotions with others but not you...


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

turnera said:


> If you go back and read my post, I said to wait until the LAST day of her PMS, and THEN give her a small token. $5 or less. As a way of saying 'I know you get crazy and I know the hormones take over, but I'm still here. I just won't accept the crazy anymore.'
> And I firmly disagree with you doing ANYTHING wrt her saying divorce while she is in the middle of PMS. My friend locked all her kids out of their house once when she had PMS before she got treated. One, there's no point discussing anything important while the hormones are in charge. Two, it's a horrible idea! Would you force her to have sex while she was drunk? Of course not, because she wouldn't be in her right mind and couldn't make a logical thought-out decision; this is no different. So stop baiting her and stop threatening to do ANYthing until PMS is over.
> 
> Once it is, tell her that you've reached a tipping point. That you now see that you don't deserve to be her punching bag anymore and you will NOT be her punching bag anymore, so if she isn't willing to go to her doctor and get something to control the PMS, you will simply be removing yourself from her vicinity every time it comes around so as to protect yourself from her. She doesn't have to agree or even like it; it's YOUR boundary and YOUR consequence you enact if she goes crazy.
> ...


Maybe I need to divide her month into 2 phases - PMS and non-PMS and interact with her accordingly. I get a notification when her PMS is approaching, so it won't be a surprise. So I think I should just let her yell/scream etc during the PMS phase as long as she does not get violent. It's hard, but possible. I was not threatening her, I was making her accountable for her words. If she wants a div, then she should go ahead and do it. She wasn't scaring me (which was her goal). But yes, I should probably just let her rant and not both to reply when she is talking nonsense.

Well you are right, she's learned her father's behavior for about 23 years but her time with me is approaching the same number so I would expect some maturity on her part. I have changed with time, why can't she on such a basic thing? I am sure she will in some years and claim that she was naive and now she has realized. It may be too late by then. 

Our son is such a good kid. He is good at sports and loves it, good at studies and loves it, a respectful loving son and also social and behaves his age. Healthy and eats vegetables like broccoli and some weird veggies that I had never heard of like a horned gourd of some sort! When she is her ugly mood, she gets on his back and rips him apart. He is a kid and doesn't know what is happening so I have to assure him that he is fine. 

Our son is in a school with advanced courses for 'smarter' kids. We have another friend whose son is in his class. We all went to meet the teacher to attend a course presentation to parents. On the way back the 2 moms begin to way that this advanced stuff was not very useful, childhood should be to enjoy, not work hard. Now the other lady is rich rich rich while we are 'well to do'. They pamper their kid rotten while I make sure I stay balanced as much as I can. I don't want my kid to have too easy of a childhood else he will not be able to face the real world later on. So I said this. Then my wife begins to wonder if we should withdraw him from this program!! I said if he can manage and he isn't complaining, why deprive him of his achievement? We got home and my wife asked me why I was 'opposing' them. I said I wasn't I was just giving my opinion. To that she says women sometimes just talk and don't mean things. OK.. whatever!  But the thing that was evident was that the other woman was giving her opinion and my wife was just playing along and making nice just to be popular. Exactly like what her dad does. This behavior just annoys the sheet out of me. Especially when a man does it. I expect a man to show some backbone.

As things have cooled down, I will have a talk with her. She seems calm enough since yesterday. BTW she looked lovely at the event yesterday. 

My gym sessions are going well! Enjoying it, see some nice looking men and women around and that is inspiring. My point of insecurity was always my physique and I hope to overcome it in time for my trip back home when I see my parents in some months. My mother was the force behind my joining... when I mention this, it bugs the hell out of my wife >


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

john117 said:


> In other words, she's able to regulate her emotions with others but not you...


That's what it looks like to me.
And her excuse is lame. Paraphrasing "I treat you badly because I love you". BS.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What she means is she treats you badly because she already HAS you, and it's all the other people whose admiration she now needs. And that is a direct result of you ACCEPTING the bad behavior. She should be afraid of making you angry or you not admiring her, too. But she doesn't have to.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Of course she doesn't mean it. Just a desperate plea for attention.

You would be astonished - how much better you would BOTH feel if able to redirect all her intense emotion into physicality. 

Honestly - she is having anxiety attacks. Take her for a run a fast walk or some wrestling on the bed. For a walk or run, the first mile is fast as she will go and no talking. Conversation resumes at mile marker one.






nirvana said:


> MEM, she does not mean divorce, she is just playing me. She wonders why I don't explode on her anymore, so she is upping the ante to get me to talk and to even yell at her. She has a great thing going, she will be a total stupid fool to divorce me. What will happen if she leaves, she gets half of what we have and then has to move into an apartment, have her friends pity her, and be alone for the rest of her life. It isn't very easy for late 30s Indian women with kids to get married again. There may be men of other races who may be interested, but most Indian women (from India) do not feel it will work out.
> 
> So no, she did not mean that she wanted divorce. So when I calmly asked her to send out an email to our respective parents, she realized it did not work and I did not de-escalate as she had hoped (so she does not have to feel like she lost) so she began to emotionally blackmail me telling me how much she had done for me and is that all the love I had for her etc etc. It's a stupid game that I don't play no mo.
> 
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Here's another angle.. 

Start thinking in terms of time series analysis. Do you see a trend? If you were to quantify the magnitude and duration, is she increasing, stable, or decreasing over time? 

Can you pinpoint current triggers, old triggers she got past, new, etc? 

Has she ever used hormone birth control? What was the outcome?

As people get older they generally mellow out, absent some pathology of course. How's this working out?

Any correlation with work? 

Start filling in these details and you may get a better idea...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Exceptionally useful pattern analysis suggestions.

Comprehension generates empathy.





john117 said:


> Here's another angle..
> 
> Start thinking in terms of time series analysis. Do you see a trend? If you were to quantify the magnitude and duration, is she increasing, stable, or decreasing over time?
> 
> ...


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> Comprehension generates empathy.


Eh, sometimes...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> Eh, sometimes...


True that. I used the above to delve into my wife's mindset. I did not like what I found. In fact, knowing what was the real reason made me realize it's not fixable by someone with my skills at least. Not fun.

In general, knowledge is good. Does it offer a way to a solution? Sometimes.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

So here's the last week or so. She had her period and she was nasty and mean this time. Even fake-threatened divorce. Then when her period got over, she's been nice and sweet again. Calling me nice loving things yesterday, and she asked me to drive to her salon to get her money because she didn't have enough and I did and she sent me a thank you message after that. 

Then today as the long weekend is starting, she asked if we were going anywhere for vacation. I said no. First, it's too expensive to book so late. Then after getting insulted, I am in no mood to reward her with a vacation. I said "no" very calmly and she got all pissy about it claiming I didn't love her etc etc. This petulant behavior is what has worked for her all these years and I am guilty of feeding it. We have a thing that when someone leaves the house, you inform the people who are still in. She did not today, she just drove off. Fine. I am not picking up if she calls either. 

No anger though. 

The thing with my wife is you can do 10000000 nice and sweet things for her and she will accept it all. If you do ONE thing that she does not like, she will hate you and get on your case. Your 100000000 nice things are all down the drain and wasted. When she was near my work place, I took her on lunch dates and she enjoyed it, bought her makeup she wanted, and then 2 days later on her PMS, she goes bonkers at me.

I will make it clear to her that I am not taking her (us) out because of her behavior. If she learns to control it, we may do trips in the future.

Gym going well and I feel stronger, though no physical change (just 1 week). I am especially motivated to do this as I have always been skinny and weak-ish and it is high time I change that.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

john117 said:


> Here's another angle..
> 
> Start thinking in terms of time series analysis. Do you see a trend? If you were to quantify the magnitude and duration, is she increasing, stable, or decreasing over time?
> 
> ...



Her triggers are:

1. Her PMS
2. Intense need to look good in front of someone 
3. What will people think/say?
4. Someone outside praising her for her work, clothes, style etc. 
5. Someone has/buys something that she/we does not
6. Volunteers for too much because she wants to be super-mom and cannot do it, gets stressed and then blames me for not helping


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

nirvana said:


> SI said "no" very calmly and she got all pissy about it claiming I didn't love her etc etc.


ugh ... so every time she doesn't get what she wants, does she play the "you don't really love me" card?


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## dianaelaine59 (Aug 15, 2016)

There ARE medications she could take that might eliminate some of her issues, keep her on a more even scale.

I don't know why she hasn't looked into this???

I realize not everyone wants to take meds, but they could make her a much happier and calmer person. And seeing that this is affecting your marriage so much, I'd think she would at least consider it.

Sent from my 0PM92 using Tapatalk


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

diana, she thinks she is fine. She thinks she is "driven" and a "go-getter". I will need to get her some help. What kinds of meds? She generally stays away from meds because of side-effects.
We have also never use BC pills because of this.

Ellis, not every time, but often enough. Her family has this "emotional blackmail" thing going on. They don't ask each other for favors, they play-blackmail and play-threaten each other. Strange, I know. Her sister does that even more often than my wife. She won't invite their parents over from India, she'll claim to be weak from low blood pressure and daddy comes running (only to find her hale and hearty) and then he calls and giggles about how she pull that scam and how he got suckered. Supposed to be some sort of love I guess.
I don't operate that way. Ask me nicely and I will do it (most things). Blackmail just pisses me off.


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## dianaelaine59 (Aug 15, 2016)

Nirvana,

She could start with the first steps and proceed from there.

1. Calcium, Magnesium, and Vitamin E

2. High carb drinks during PMS.

3. Bioidentical hormone Replacement.

Note the BIOIDENTICAL!!
(usually progesterone).

She could also get bloodwork done, and check magnesium, potassium and calcium.

Also tests for hormone levels.

3. Prozac or Zoloft

This is a heavy hitter, but may be what she needs.

4. Anti-anxiety meds. such as a very low dose of Xanax, etc.

Sent from my 0PM92 using Tapatalk


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Next time she asks you to perform an act of service, you might say: We can discuss that after we address how you respond when you don't get your way.

At some point she needs to hear: If you intend to melt down each time you don't get your way - I'm going to lose my desire to do nice things for you. Until this gets resolved, I'd prefer you not to ask me to do anything you are able to do yourself. 




nirvana said:


> So here's the last week or so. She had her period and she was nasty and mean this time. Even fake-threatened divorce. Then when her period got over, she's been nice and sweet again. Calling me nice loving things yesterday, and she asked me to drive to her salon to get her money because she didn't have enough and I did and she sent me a thank you message after that.
> 
> Then today as the long weekend is starting, she asked if we were going anywhere for vacation. I said no. First, it's too expensive to book so late. Then after getting insulted, I am in no mood to reward her with a vacation. I said "no" very calmly and she got all pissy about it claiming I didn't love her etc etc. This petulant behavior is what has worked for her all these years and I am guilty of feeding it. We have a thing that when someone leaves the house, you inform the people who are still in. She did not today, she just drove off. Fine. I am not picking up if she calls either.
> 
> ...


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

This is training, @nirvana.

You are training her on what you will accept. Mem is spot on.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> This is training, @nirvana.
> 
> You are training her on what you will accept. Mem is spot on.



Thanks mem and farside.

She's been very nice and sweet the past few days. In a great mood too. She is a delight when she is like this. One of the things that make me suspicious is she is frequently sweet when she wants something from me. Then when she gets it, it is back to the old behavior and justification that she is nasty because I am such a @#%$%^$. However, I took her and the kids to a downtown area in a suburb 20 miles away and she enjoyed that. Went to a local free concert with some friends. But no "vacation". No more until I see some real change.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Well, just like you were told, the next time she asks for whatever it is she wants this time, say 'I'll consider it, but only after we discuss how you act when you DON'T get what you want.' And then, if she refuses to discuss her actions, you just shrug and say 'ok then, let me know when you're ready to talk about it' and go on about your way, WITHOUT giving her what she asked for.

You can do that, right?


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

turnera, yes, she does need to learn to be responsible for her own actions and not justify bad behavior with silly excuses like "I was mean and nasty because I love you". 

I feel a bit silly to do report on this on a day to day basis, but she's still being very nice, sweet and even understanding. That means she has it in her but she just chooses not to display it. Reason is most likely that she has taken me for granted and does not want to put in the work to keep the relationship fresh because she gets what she wants anyway. This time I flatly but politely say no to any travel. 

My gym sessions are going well as I decided that I needed to invest in myself, not just wife and kids. It's just been about 10 days but I feel physically stronger though visually there may not be much difference yet. The last time we had sex a few days ago, my wife was giggling about how she could feel my stronger thrusts! I just need to keep the gym sessions going and develop a muscular physique as I think I have the other pieces to the puzzle. 

I am trying to keep myself from getting too giddy that I have found the solution, because I usually bend over backwards because I am happy that she is behaving, only for her to revert back. Now I need to see some concrete change for some reasonable time which includes her PMS (in about 2.5 weeks). That is the real test.

Also, I realize that if you don't have leverage, almost everyone will take advantage of you. Yes, even kids and spouse. May not happen every time with every one but it happens often enough. So I am not giving her what she wants when she does not give me what I want. She is free to travel by herself with the kids and I know she won't enjoy that. If she wants me, she better learn to behave. 

Seeing all the fit bodies at the gym, I feel like buying my wife a membership too. She runs and keeps her weight in check and looks very fit but I feel like we can spend extra on this very good gym. But I'll hold off for now. Maybe next month.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

She's been good for about 5-6 days, and I feel like reciprocating. Only a little bit, not a lot because she may slide down again. So maybe today in bed I'll cuddle up, give her a head massage and massage her tired eyes too. She loves that. Totally platonically, nothing sexual and no plans or hopes that it turns to sex. If she gets sexual, I might just douse it. We should be at an understanding we can love each other without it getting to sex all the time.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

get a fishing/hunting cabin, and visit it once a month!


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