# Living in sin



## lebogang

Hi. I'm a christian currently living with my fiance as if we were married. We met in his country and had a long distance relationship until we got engaged. We made the decision that he come to my country to study and create a better life for himself as he is from a poor country and backround and is an orphan. The plan was for him to live with his brother while going to school in order to finally get a good job (His brother lives in my country). When he arrived in the country his brother lost his job and went to live with friends. When we approched our immigration they said in order for him to reside in the country, we would have to show proof of cohabitation for at least a year. As a result, we have secretly moved in together into my apartment so that when his study permit expires we can apply for a permit for couples that are yet to be married. He can't go back to his country because he has lost his job and has nowhere to go. He can't live with his brother and is currently a student. My parents do not want us to marry because he is foreign and do not know that I live with him. I am financially independent and love my fiance and have no problem supporting him till he is on his feet. But in the mean time, what happens to me and God because at the end of the day, I am living in sin???? Help


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## ClipClop

So you are having sex?

Are you in the us?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## weR2

lebogang said:


> Hi. I'm a christian currently living with my fiance as if we were married. We met in his country and had a long distance relationship until we got engaged. We made the decision that he come to my country to study and create a better life for himself as he is from a poor country and backround and is an orphan. The plan was for him to live with his brother while going to school in order to finally get a good job (His brother lives in my country). When he arrived in the country his brother lost his job and went to live with friends. When we approched our immigration they said in order for him to reside in the country, we would have to show proof of cohabitation for at least a year. As a result, we have secretly moved in together into my apartment so that when his study permit expires we can apply for a permit for couples that are yet to be married. He can't go back to his country because he has lost his job and has nowhere to go. He can't live with his brother and is currently a student. My parents do not want us to marry because he is foreign and do not know that I live with him. I am financially independent and love my fiance and have no problem supporting him till he is on his feet. But in the mean time, what happens to me and God because at the end of the day, I am living in sin???? Help


Living in sin? Is that because you were so kind and understanding to take a poor person in? to love? to give? to understand? "Give me your tired, your poor........?" (Statue of Liberty) Where is the sin? I cannot think of any place in the gospels of the New Testament where Christ would condemn you for cohabitating. From what I read in the New Testament, Christ was continually trying to lead mankind forward, to slowly "abandon" many of the age-old traditions and thoughts. To bring man and woman together. Perhaps it was because of fear, that the people of those times could not "let go" of traditional ideals. 

Could it be that we all to often try to live according to the way others want us to live? But what makes us so sure that what they think is actually the "proper way"? Isn't it our own soul that we are responsible for? Suppose that they are wrong and we follow their "path", then wouldn't we be answering for their "errors" when we leave this world for the next?

One of the reasons that the early settlers came here was for freedom of religion, freedom of belief. They no longer wanted to tied to any set religion. Since then, many new Christian sects have been established, each with varying doctrines, Christianity is evolving. The question is: Which of these new "churches" is correct, as of today? Who is right and who is wrong?


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## Amplexor

I have been a Christian all my life and I find no "sin" in a loving and committed couple that opt to live together before marriage. My wife and I had a long distance relationship. Circumstances brought us into cohabiting when we really didn't know each other very well. We had doubting, concerned and condemning parents at the time. Members of the church that didn't approve of our living arrangements. 25+ years later we are still together and none of that matters to anyone anymore. Least of all the two of us.


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## 827Aug

I, too, am Christian and see nothing wrong with what you are doing.

However, thy shall not lie to parents though.


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## Parrothead

lebogang said:


> Hi. I'm a christian currently living with my fiance as if we were married. We met in his country and had a long distance relationship until we got engaged. We made the decision that he come to my country to study and create a better life for himself as he is from a poor country and backround and is an orphan. The plan was for him to live with his brother while going to school in order to finally get a good job (His brother lives in my country). When he arrived in the country his brother lost his job and went to live with friends. When we approched our immigration they said in order for him to reside in the country, we would have to show proof of cohabitation for at least a year. As a result, we have secretly moved in together into my apartment so that when his study permit expires we can apply for a permit for couples that are yet to be married. He can't go back to his country because he has lost his job and has nowhere to go. He can't live with his brother and is currently a student. My parents do not want us to marry because he is foreign and do not know that I live with him. I am financially independent and love my fiance and have no problem supporting him till he is on his feet. But in the mean time, what happens to me and God because at the end of the day, I am living in sin???? Help


I will not judge you, but I do have some questions:

What are you going to do if he takes advantage of your generous offer, allowing you to support him, then splits with another chick when he has all he needs from you, having never gotten married?

What are you going to do when your parents find out?

What are you going to do if you end up pregnant and he takes off? 

These things can and do happen all the time.


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## needmorehelp

Just get married... sheesh. Or just be upfront with your parents. Karma will get you in the but if you don't. Confessing your problem online will not fix the situation. Nothing beats a healhty dose of honesty.

PS
Living in sin? I don't know.... there is a consequence to every choice, so whatever it is, there will be a consequence... good or bad. Plus, the God I know loves you. A God who loves sinners and broken people. I would not be worried about God as much as I would about your parents for lying to them. woopsy, not sucha good idea


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## Parrothead

needmorehelp said:


> Just get married... sheesh. Or just be upfront with your parents. Karma will get you in the but if you don't. Confessing your problem online will not fix the situation. Nothing beats a healhty dose of honesty.
> 
> PS
> Living in sin? I don't know.... there is a consequence to every choice, so whatever it is, there will be a consequence... good or bad. Plus, the God I know loves you. A God who loves sinners and broken people. I would not be worried about God as much as I would about your parents for lying to them. woopsy, not sucha good idea


I prefer physics to karma - for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.


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## xox

If your fundamentalist, 1st Thessalonians 5 says...

22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 

This is what I've been taught. Living together appears evil because even if you aren't sleeping together (fornication) it appears that you are and ruins your testimony.

Is there a reason you aren't getting married?


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## lebogang

@ amplexor: Thanks. That gives me hope.

@Parrothead: I once asked a pastor how you know for sure who you're marrying is right for you. He told me relationships are a risk, you can never know for sure. It's not about choosing right, it's about working on it. As a result, I've chosen the path of believing in us and working on making it work. I don't focus on what if's and would rather focus on being positive. 

@needmorehelp & xox: Getting married in Africa is complicated. We do marry in the common way of the world but we first have to marry culturally. Otherwise, even if we get married in court or something, our families will not see us as married. Culturally, he has to pay my parents money. He had saved up some money while working with the intention to use it for our cultural wedding. But since my father decides on the amount of money, he calls out large amounts he knows he can't afford. Since he is not working anymore, we both know the cultural wedding will not happen until he starts working and saving up what he is required to pay. We almost eloped, but I feared for mother's health as she is ailing and would not take it well. So to answer your question, I would say what prevents us from marrying would be our culture, not getting the blessings from my parents and money.

We've thought of getting married and hiding it from them until he can marry me properly according to our culture, but that does not sit well with us.


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## lebogang

weR2 said:


> Living in sin? Is that because you were so kind and understanding to take a poor person in? to love? to give? to understand? "Give me your tired, your poor........?" (Statue of Liberty) Where is the sin? I cannot think of any place in the gospels of the New Testament where Christ would condemn you for cohabitating. From what I read in the New Testament, Christ was continually trying to lead mankind forward, to slowly "abandon" many of the age-old traditions and thoughts. To bring man and woman together. Perhaps it was because of fear, that the people of those times could not "let go" of traditional ideals.
> 
> Could it be that we all to often try to live according to the way others want us to live? But what makes us so sure that what they think is actually the "proper way"? Isn't it our own soul that we are responsible for? Suppose that they are wrong and we follow their "path", then wouldn't we be answering for their "errors" when we leave this world for the next?
> 
> One of the reasons that the early settlers came here was for freedom of religion, freedom of belief. They no longer wanted to tied to any set religion. Since then, many new Christian sects have been established, each with varying doctrines, Christianity is evolving. The question is: Which of these new "churches" is correct, as of today? Who is right and who is wrong?


*You have no idea how much I've argued that point with some of my mates in prayer group that know about us. But when I'm told that the bottom line is that I am sinning, I can't help but feel such shame because it's true. I need to find a way to make peace and move forward with this without compromising the truth of his word.*


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## kidcanman

I'm not even christian and I know that you're living in sin. It is COMMON KNOWLEDGE that sex before marriage is a BIBLICAL sin.

Nobody can HONESTLY deny this fact. Some people think that it is a trivial sin in the grand scheme of things, and that's probably because most of them have committed the sin, but at the end of the day your choice of action will depend upon whether or not you think you have a connection to biblical teachings, and how strong your connection is. 

The fact that sex before marriage is a biblical sin is plain.

Assist your fiance in finding an apartment or a roommate.


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## kidcanman

lebogang said:


> I once asked a pastor how you know for sure who you're marrying is right for you. He told me relationships are a risk, you can never know for sure. It's not about choosing right, it's about working on it. As a result, I've chosen the path of believing in us and working on making it work. I don't focus on what if's and would rather focus on being positive.


life is a risk. and people who believe in god, rely on him to help us through it. 

that is why it is better for you to believe in god and put your trust in what he has directed you to do, so that he will bless your marriage. 

you can chose to live in sin, but what if, as a consequence, you lose the blessing of god in your marriage. 

so yes, relationships are a risk, and that is why you should go in the direction of god so that he can help you with your relationship.


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## lebogang

kidcanman said:


> I'm not even christian and I know that you're living in sin. It is COMMON KNOWLEDGE that sex before marriage is a BIBLICAL sin.
> 
> Nobody can HONESTLY deny this fact. Some people think that it is a trivial sin in the grand scheme of things, and that's probably because most of them have committed the sin, but at the end of the day your choice of action will depend upon whether or not you think you have a connection to biblical teachings, and how strong your connection is.
> 
> The fact that sex before marriage is a biblical sin is plain.
> 
> Assist your fiance in finding an apartment or a roommate.


If I had the money, I would.


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## kidcanman

lebogang said:


> If I had the money, I would.


I wonder. 

The interesting thing is that I am also from africa, Sierra Leone, and my sister was in a similar situation as yourself.

One day the family was meeting at her apartment and she invited her fiance over to help her move, even though she knew it would cause a big controversy in the family. When I questioned her about it she told me, "I don't have anybody else to help me move". And of course that was not true, because the african community is very large where I live, and plus she has her family and two brothers. I called some of my friends, and there were six people there, ready to help her move, within 30 minutes. 

The point is I know for sure that if you really wanted him out you could find a way. You have guy friends he could room with. You have family. You can ask some of your church members or pastors that you can confide in. 

Which pastor will not help you to find him somebody to room with if the pastor knows that you are making an effort not to commit a sin?

especially if you explain to them that initially he was living with his brother and now he does not have a place. 

weR2 stated that Christianity is about taking poor people in. So the real solution is to be honest with some church members that you can confide in, and let them take him in; not for you to live in sin.


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## lebogang

Kidcanman: I hear you and thanks for the advice.

At the time his brother lost his job, I asked a good guy friend of mine to take him in. He stayed there for some weeks but later the guy said his wife was not happy and he had to leave. I then got helped by another guy from church who is single, but I had to contribute a certain amount of money for groceries, rates, etc. Due to my financing his education it became hard to take care of three households (mine, his, and my family). That's why I ended up moving him in with me eventually. Especially when immigration stated that in order to obtain a lifepartner permit, we need to provide proof of cohabitation. I have since moved far from home because of work and moved with him. He attends school in that area and we haven't yet found a church to go to. I do think that maybe I should find a church and speak to a pastor. Maybe they might offer some help...


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## kidcanman

What type of proof do they require? I know they don't expect you to keep a sign in sheet at your front door. 

I haven't lived in TX for 3 years but I still have a TX licence with my mother's address on it. 

Put his name on the lease or on a phone bill and then have him room with somebody else. 

Also if he is not working, then he needs to find a part time job in order to pay for his food and living expenses. He can try to find one on campus, or a corner store, or a day laborer agency. Or if that fails then try asking your pastor or somebody in the local african community to help him find one.


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## lebogang

A lot of people fraudently obtain the permit, as a result, they have made it tricky by conducting interviews. Apparently they catch out a lot of people with the interviews because they interview you separately, to investigate whether you really do live together.

He has been looking for work for a year now, he still hasn't found anything. He is foreign, so it's not that simple. I at some point opened up a small business for him but the business fell flat and caused me more debt . He's applied for jobs such as waitressing, gardening, jobs that don't need some sort of qualification, at times he would get something, but because he is employed not according the law, they refuse to pay or pay him very little and he can't do much about it.


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## lebogang

I have also asked friends and family that own businesses to offer him something if they can. Due to the legal requirements they have to fulfil to employ a foreigner, they are not too comfortable with my request.


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## kidcanman

then he needs to go back to africa until you can save up enough money for a dowry. When it comes to religion sometimes it is a question of your desires vs your convictions.

at the end of the day here is the situation:

#1 yes you are living in sin.

#2 there is no way out of it unless he goes back to africa.

your decision is between you and god.


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## lebogang

You know, this situation has made me question a lot about life, spirituality and wordly requirements. I meet a man and fall in love and he is not accepted because he is not "good enough". I meet a man I respect because of what he has gone through and made something of himself regardless and because of money (dowry) I should throw him back into it. He has slept in the streets before at his own country where he has aunts and uncles and because my christian family can't get past the fact that he is not educated enough, is foreign and doesn't have money I can't be with him. It's made me wonder if marriage is money, a signature or is it not enough that we are committed to a life together forever? Why do we have to suffer like this to live upto standard set by everyone else but us? I know I have asked for advice, I'm just sharing my frustrations.


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## lebogang

Basically I'm saying it's easy to say "go back to africa" when you don't know what that means for him. He is an orphan whose had to fend for himself for the most basic of things. I was surprised when I met him that he even managed to get to where he was. If he could sleep in the streets while he has family, saying to me to let him go to africa knowing what he could face is just not possible. I love him too much to put him back into such suffering. I wanted him here because it hurt me too much to see how he lived. So no, for me, sending him back is not an option. My heart won't let me.


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## kidcanman

When it comes to emotions like "love", the human being is filled with mental storms that are far more complicated then the physical world around them. 

And if I know women, and I do because I have six adult sisters, there is little doubt that you will choose "love" over simplicity. Most women choose "love" over everything. Or I could state it as man over everything.

Many women will quit school or give up a lucrative career because of a man. Other women will choose a man over their families.

And as I said I am not christian. So you need not question your spirituality, because many women will choose a man over every type of theology there is. Women will chose a man over god the majority of the time. We can only hope that god will forgive them.

But i don't think that you have come to a new realization.

I think that the standards and values that your family hold, and the values of your church, are the same ones that you yourself still hold deer if there was not a man involved; if there were not "love" involved. 

Your problem is that you fell in "love" with a man that does not meet YOUR standards. 

The interesting thing is that you expect your family to lower their expectations just because you fell in love. It should not work that way. You are obviously a capable woman. And you are not obligated to marry this man. There are many men out there. You are the one that is obligated to live up to your families' expectations; you are obligated to promote the unity and strength of your family and their values.

I know you don't expect your family to support your marriage of a gangster or a thug. Or do you?

I don't know how materialistic, or irrational, your family is, but it does not matter; there are men out there that you can fall in love with that meet your families' requirements. 

If you send him back, that does not mean that you cannot marry him after you save up some money. And also you will have the chance to talk to your family and also do it in a more honorable way. 

If he grew up in a bad environment than he is capable of weathering the situation for a couple more years. He is not the only person in that situation; you can't save everybody.

We all know right from wrong; and often times the straight path is not the easy one.

The choices remain the same. Love, or simplicity. Live in sin, or let him go back. Unite your family, or marry him behind their backs.


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## lebogang

"The interesting thing is that you expect your family to lower their expectations just because you fell in love."
"And if I know women there is little doubt that you will choose "love" over simplicity"
"most women choose "love" over everything"

According to scripture, the greatest thing in this world is love. But you make love seem so valueless. It may seem like I'm a fool but I'm happy to be capable of loving such a man. I love my family dearly. I love my God too. It's because all that I love is in conflict with one another that I find myself torn.

I think it was important for me to hear all this because it's made me realise that the battle I'm in is not over standards or rules. Those things do not touch a man's heart, change someones life and show God's greatness...but love does. I am committed to my man, we might not be married western or culturally, but spiritually we are. We both love each other and the Lord and that is all I need.

Thanks again to everyone for the insight.


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## kidcanman

lebogang, I realize that this is not a debate, and I am aware that you were only seeking sincere advice. but I would just like to speak to the fact that if you were to pole most of the female members on this site that have been married for long periods of time, you would find that, in terms of sacrifices for the sake of "love", the women are the ones that have barred the lions share of the burden; these are facts. 

That is what seems quizzical to me. The fact that it almost never fails that women will give up everything for "love", and men are not willing to do the same. It normally takes years of abuse, neglect, and pain for women to de-romanticize their perceptions of "love" and start using their heads. 

And the second thing is that it is questionable for you to endearingly invoke scripture on the one hand, and then conveniently downplay it on the other hand.

And truth be told, because of my experience with women, I sincerely think that you will take the hard route as well.

Don't blame your family, and don't blame your religion.


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## lebogang

"And the second thing is that it is questionable for you to endearingly invoke scripture on the one hand, and then conveniently downplay it on the other hand"

That's true. Hence I am where I am and feeling the way I do. It's a tough situation to handle, but I'll press on the best way I know how.


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## Parrothead

lebogang said:


> @Parrothead: I once asked a pastor how you know for sure who you're marrying is right for you. He told me relationships are a risk, you can never know for sure. It's not about choosing right, it's about working on it. As a result, I've chosen the path of believing in us and working on making it work. I don't focus on what if's and would rather focus on being positive.


That might be the worst advice I have ever heard from a "pastor". Relationships ARE a risk, but being a Christian is all about making the right choices in life. 

Take a look around you - this forum is filled with people who thought the way you do, and see what they got for their trouble.


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## lebogang

@Parrothead: I guess such is life. Faith is what we live on.


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## Parrothead

lebogang said:


> @Parrothead: I guess such is life. Faith is what we live on.


We'll see...


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## CLucas976

lebogang said:


> @ amplexor: Thanks. That gives me hope.
> 
> @Parrothead: I once asked a pastor how you know for sure who you're marrying is right for you. He told me relationships are a risk, you can never know for sure. It's not about choosing right, it's about working on it. As a result, I've chosen the path of believing in us and working on making it work. I don't focus on what if's and would rather focus on being positive.
> 
> @needmorehelp & xox: Getting married in Africa is complicated. We do marry in the common way of the world but we first have to marry culturally. Otherwise, even if we get married in court or something, our families will not see us as married. Culturally, he has to pay my parents money. He had saved up some money while working with the intention to use it for our cultural wedding. But since my father decides on the amount of money, he calls out large amounts he knows he can't afford. Since he is not working anymore, we both know the cultural wedding will not happen until he starts working and saving up what he is required to pay. We almost eloped, but I feared for mother's health as she is ailing and would not take it well. So to answer your question, I would say what prevents us from marrying would be our culture, not getting the blessings from my parents and money.
> 
> We've thought of getting married and hiding it from them until he can marry me properly according to our culture, but that does not sit well with us.


Here's a question: what do YOU TWO believe?

a christian relationship is between wife, husband, and god. it is not between you, your parents, his parents, society, a doctor, your pharmacist, you can add anyone else in there all you want..bottom line is it is a you, him, and god.

If I hadn't ended up living with my husband prior to our marriage and engagement I would have never developed any sort of understanding of god or real belief even if Im on rocky terms with it now.

One of the things I dislike the most is the "living in sin" fear and stigma. we ALL live in sin, none of us are perfect and it is gods place to judge. Not your parents, not your pastor, and certainly not my place to judge anyone else.

Find strength in your belief, find strength in god, and find strength in your relationship. That will help you decide where to go next. If your parents truly love you, than they will love the other parts of you too, one of which is your soon to be husband.


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## FaithHopeLove

I was sort of in a similar situation with my fiance-- won't go into the nitty gritty about it, but I did walk in your steps for awhile.

1) Are you two REALLY engaged if your parents (and I'm assuming his family) do not know about it? If you're a Christian, wouldn't you want your parents' blessing on the marriage? If that doesn't bother you, you're disrespecting your future husband and the love you two share by hiding the fact that you're engaged. (I did this for awhile with my husband and then I broke off the engagement because it felt false to me)

2) This is not fault to him, but how are you going to expect him to be able to fulfill his Biblical duties as a husband if he can't get a job or do much in your country? It seems more wise for him to go back to his country, get an education or some type of training, get some work experience, and then come back when that work experience and education can help him get a job (a good paying job) to help him fulfill his duties as a husband.

I have nothing against a wife supporting her husband-- I bring in more money than my hubby does-- but it really seems like he doesn't have much going for himself in your country. If you love him enough and your relationship is meant to be, him leaving to better himself first won't do damage to your relationship. Otherwise it seems like you two will be hiding your love and running around in circles trying to financially support yourselves for a long time.


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## FaithHopeLove

CLucas976 said:


> a christian relationship is between wife, husband, and god. it is not between you, your parents, his parents, society, a doctor, your pharmacist, you can add anyone else in there all you want..bottom line is it is a you, him, and god.


Unfortunately, this couple is not yet married. So parents do come into play. Until they exchange vows and become one, the parents do have a right to have a say in the relationship.

Though I'm more modern than my parents or grandparents, I still wanted my parents to support us to get married. I didn't let my husband ask me to marry him until we had that-- took 5 years, but it was worth the wait.


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## cb45

quickie read thru says:

u already know "the answer(s)" so what ya looking HERE for, 
agreement or to be talked out of what u know IS right (to do)?

to him/her that is sin, IS sin. If it not, then not. Paul said it all
in several of his letters. its as clear as the day is long.

u pretty much said as much in the first page response where u boldened yer font (midway down methinks, where u acknow-
ledged "shame") 

if u wanna chat/kibbitz then feel free to do so but dont drag
this out like its some overwhelming dilemma u cant understand
or figure out what to do.

u hear the "voice of God" as easily as kidcan, or anyone else.
yer only "dilemma" is whether u OBEY or DISobey HIS Loving
command/direction for u and your life.

same for all of us. believer or not. (yep them too, just read
up on balak in OT writings).


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## Parrothead

cb45 said:


> to him/her that is sin, IS sin. If it not, then not. Paul said it all
> in several of his letters. its as clear as the day is long.


Like this?



> Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.


-1 Cor 7

As a matter of practicality, though, sex outside of marriage is not a good idea because when the two are parted, both are damaged, sometimes irreparably.


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## SimplyAmorous

Me & my boyfriend/then husband "lived in sin" but didn't have intercoarse, go figure that one, it helped me feel "less guilty" before God, I was the believer - here is a similar thread in another section. My story and My thoughts on this there.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/28753-shacking-up.html


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## cb45

Parrothead said:


> Like this?
> 
> 
> 
> -1 Cor 7
> 
> As a matter of practicality, though, sex outside of marriage is not a good idea because when the two are parted, both are damaged, sometimes irreparably.


actually, i was wrong to say
Paul; instead it was James 4:17 (any version u like...lol)

Remember, it is sin to know what you ought to do and then not do it. (NLV. my fav.  )


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## weR2

cb45 said:


> actually, i was wrong to say
> Paul; instead it was James 4:17 (any version u like...lol)
> 
> Remember, it is sin to know what you ought to do and then not do it. (NLV. my fav.  )


We must remember, that all of these verses are written TO churches (in response to questions that they were asking). To churches that were just starting out, at the infant stage of "Peter's Church" (Peter was not an apostle, he was a follower of Christ's teachings).

In realising this, we must also realize the mores of those times and that particular area. In the Corinthians quote, we see that it was a suggestion, perhaps based on the mores of that time in Corinth. I would think that mores of the west coast of the USA are quite different from the mores of the midwest or the east coast of the USA. In that case would we/should we advise or suggest differently based upon where they live?

We also see that Lebogang is attempting to mix the African mores with the mores of conservative American Christianity. It really doesn't work, maybe what she and he really need to do is create their own beliefs. The "wife purchase" thing from Africa is actually more complicted than just that (again depending on the area that he is from), and this is important for Lebogang to understand. HOW MUCH IS EACH WILLING TO BEND? Who's moral standards will they follow? Will she be the woman of his expectations or will he be the man of her expectations. Who will give up what? It seems that both want to hang onto the mores with which they were raised.


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## Parrothead

weR2 said:


> We must remember, that all of these verses are written TO churches (in response to questions that they were asking). To churches that were just starting out, at the infant stage of "Peter's Church" (Peter was not an apostle, he was a follower of Christ's teachings).
> 
> In realising this, we must also realize the mores of those times and that particular area. In the Corinthians quote, we see that it was a suggestion, perhaps based on the mores of that time in Corinth. I would think that mores of the west coast of the USA are quite different from the mores of the midwest or the east coast of the USA. In that case would we/should we advise or suggest differently based upon where they live?
> 
> We also see that Lebogang is attempting to mix the African mores with the mores of conservative American Christianity. It really doesn't work, maybe what she and he really need to do is create their own beliefs. The "wife purchase" thing from Africa is actually more complicted than just that (again depending on the area that he is from), and this is important for Lebogang to understand. HOW MUCH IS EACH WILLING TO BEND? Who's moral standards will they follow? Will she be the woman of his expectations or will he be the man of her expectations. Who will give up what? It seems that both want to hang onto the mores with which they were raised.


Dude, your theological innacuracies are starting to annoy cb45. Peter most certainly was an apostle, which may seem like a trivial point until you start talking about holy orders and sacramental theology, etc. 

But I digress. What Lebogang needs to do is either be a Christian or not be one, instead of making excuses for why she can't be and won't be one while she still calls herself that.

There, I said it, that will probably get me some grief from the "spiritual" types. But let me reiterate, this is not "Christian" behavior. If it is, having an EA so you can save someone's soul probably is, too. Some may call that black and white thinking, but truth is like that. CB alluded to Paul, who said that even eating meat in front of people who didn't think you should was a stumbling block for them and that you shouldn't do it just for that reason, even if it was legal for you.


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## Parrothead

cb45 said:


> actually, i was wrong to say
> Paul; instead it was James 4:17 (any version u like...lol)
> 
> Remember, it is sin to know what you ought to do and then not do it. (NLV. my fav.  )


OK, better.


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## weR2

Parrothead said:


> Dude, your theological innacuracies are starting to annoy cb45. Peter most certainly was an apostle, which may seem like a trivial point until you start talking about holy orders and sacramental theology, etc.
> 
> But I digress. What Lebogang needs to do is either be a Christian or not be one, instead of making excuses for why she can't be and won't be one while she still calls herself that.
> 
> There, I said it, that will probably get me some grief from the "spiritual" types. But let me reiterate, this is not "Christian" behavior. If it is, having an EA so you can save someone's soul probably is, too. Some may call that black and white thinking, but truth is like that. CB alluded to Paul, who said that even eating meat in front of people who didn't think you should was a stumbling block for them and that you shouldn't do it just for that reason, even if it was legal for you.


@Parrothead. Thank you for the correction, I thought about this last night after writing the post and recalled. that I should have put in the name of Paul, rather than Peter. I often confuse the 2 because I was raised Catholic then went to the "Christianity". Catholics claim that Peter started the Church of Rome, but it was actually Paul (the follower of Christ's teachings). Peter (the apostle) started the church at Antioch, of which many of today's Christian faiths claim to have "evolved" from.

I am also sorry that I have upset you, Parrothead. I am on this site not to "push" my beliefs onto anybody else. But rather, to share thoughts, ideas, and experiences. It seems to me that people come here to discuss, learn, and expand. And while I am in no way perfect, I do realize that the last AND only perfect human was Christ himself. Other than that, unless you can show me a perfect person such as Christ himself, I shall continue my search for the TRUTH. 

I also apologize to cb45 if I have annoyed/harmed her in any way. I do not think that I have been rude, obnoxious, judging. While I have had posters make judgmental statements about me, I understand and am willing to turn the other cheek. It seems that those same people that attempt to lay down the "law", .... well, let me say this, "Judge not lest ye be judged." NONE of us here really know the TRUTH, hence we cannot really say what God really wants.


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## cb45

u'ze guys make me chuckle somethin' fierce.

1st off, i'm all dude-man (does a pkg check/readjustment/cough :lol: )

2ndly, i'm not offended in the least as u sometimes read like 
many a poor confused soul i come across here and in the 
real "flesh" world "out there" (speaking of wer2).
IT's only the satanic folk who aim to lie, cheat, steal, & destroy
that get my anger up; so much so that if our Lord would allow
it, i'd join the crusaders in the bloodbath dept of wiping them
off the face of the earth but alas, 'tis not our Master's way
(good thing too perhaps as once upon a time many of us were
there, steeped in our own muck n mire of sin(s) and Angels 
would love to "put us out of our miserable sinfulness").

as Christians, we are not to be offended anyways, as Jesus
showed us the way here too on this pt of offense.

so stay confused and no one should be offended, just more
focused on prayering for yer souls.

shalom.


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## Parrothead

cb45 said:


> u'ze guys make me chuckle somethin' fierce.
> 
> 1st off, i'm all dude-man (does a pkg check/readjustment/cough :lol: )
> 
> 2ndly, i'm not offended in the least as u sometimes read like
> many a poor confused soul i come across here and in the
> real "flesh" world "out there" (speaking of wer2).
> IT's only the satanic folk who aim to lie, cheat, steal, & destroy
> that get my anger up; so much so that if our Lord would allow
> it, i'd join the crusaders in the bloodbath dept of wiping them
> off the face of the earth but alas, 'tis not our Master's way
> (good thing too perhaps as once upon a time many of us were
> there, steeped in our own muck n mire of sin(s) and Angels
> would love to "put us out of our miserable sinfulness").
> 
> as Christians, we are not to be offended anyways, as Jesus
> showed us the way here too on this pt of offense.
> 
> so stay confused and no one should be offended, just more
> focused on prayering for yer souls.
> 
> shalom.


I was trying to be funny. That's a joke, son. 

And if you want to wipe out anybody in a crusade, you have some serious anger issues to deal with. :rofl:


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## Parrothead

weR2 said:


> I am also sorry that I have upset you, Parrothead. I am on this site not to "push" my beliefs onto anybody else. But rather, to share thoughts, ideas, and experiences. It seems to me that people come here to discuss, learn, and expand. And while I am in no way perfect, I do realize that the last AND only perfect human was Christ himself. Other than that, unless you can show me a perfect person such as Christ himself, I shall continue my search for the TRUTH.


I am not upset, I am trying to aid your search for the truth. This is why I am also sharing MY thoughts, ideas, and experiences, which is apparently unacceptable to people who have expanded so much they know everything already.



> I also apologize to cb45 if I have annoyed/harmed her in any way. I do not think that I have been rude, obnoxious, judging. While I have had posters make judgmental statements about me, I understand and am willing to turn the other cheek. It seems that those same people that attempt to lay down the "law", .... well, let me say this, "Judge not lest ye be judged." NONE of us here really know the TRUTH, hence we cannot really say what God really wants.


You can cry about "being judged" (which is what everybody who has ever been disagreed with thinks) but someone as "spiritual" as you are should at least recognize karma, even if you really don't believe in Christianity. 

This is why I prefer to err on the side of conservatism in matters such as these. I would rather see someone trade a little comfort now and avoid a lifetime of misery. This is why I dispute you and others, because much of the time I HAVE BEEN THERE MYSELF and I know whereof I speak, which is why I have been so adamant in my assertions to lebogang.

Is that all right with you?


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## cb45

I was trying to be funny. That's a joke, son. 

And if you want to wipe out anybody in a crusade, you have some serious anger issues to deal with. -----parrothead

 

if u wanna joke me, by all means do, but work on delivery,
timing, that sort of thing. oh, and maybe do it in p.m. land
(as i call it) where no hijacking of the thread happens and
where u dont confuse another (weR2)into apologizing (to me) for something u wrote (re: me, etc)

i'll re: "anger issues" as one of yer "jokes" since thats what
u indicate u like to "do," as methinks i was clear where i was
coming from and WHO (Jesus) gives me my orders (daily) to carry out (in faith).

shalom.


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## Parrothead

cb45 said:


> if u wanna joke me, by all means do, but work on delivery,
> timing, that sort of thing. oh, and maybe do it in p.m. land
> (as i call it) where no hijacking of the thread happens and
> where u dont confuse another (weR2)into apologizing (to me) for something u wrote (re: me, etc)


If I was saying these things for your sake maybe I would, but I am actually saying them for the sake of people who might think wer2 actually knows what he is talking about. 

As it is, living together before marriage makes a couple twice as likely to divorce after marriage (assuming they make it that far), but the question was "is it sin?". 

It's not only a sin, but it's a bad idea. I am just giving you guys the benefit of MY experience so all y'all can expand your collective mind.


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## cb45

ok. peace on aforementioned posts.

but on yer latest one, which i shouldve "quoted" let me add
one of the most awesome powers/aspects of God being God
is.......how he can even take "sin" as u listed it here re: 
infidelity leading to marriage leading to divorce (twice likely)

AND, 

take that original sin (selah) and turn into something good
for that couple, those affected around them, as well as the
"spectators" be they naysayers or edifiers.

that "good" can be our understanding &/or his "understanding" of
"the word" good. (oooh, oooh, another selah. ummmm)

I know, have known, and am knowing as HE teaches me, day
by day, by day. 

the "lesson(s)" continue.

hence i always/often say/sign off with the all encompassing....

Shalom!


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## Parrothead

cb45 said:


> I know, have known, and am knowing as HE teaches me, day
> by day, by day.Shalom!


Yeah, I get that a lot. I have lost count of the people I have met who tell me that God teaches them something other than what He has said in his Word. 

It has been my understanding that God uses your sins for good once you have turned from them. 

But, what do I know?


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## weR2

cb45 said:


> u'ze guys make me chuckle somethin' fierce.
> 
> 1st off, i'm all dude-man (does a pkg check/readjustment/cough :lol: )
> 
> 2ndly, i'm not offended in the least as u sometimes read like
> many a poor confused soul i come across here and in the
> real "flesh" world "out there" (speaking of wer2).
> IT's only the satanic folk who aim to lie, cheat, steal, & destroy
> that get my anger up; so much so that if our Lord would allow
> it, i'd join the crusaders in the bloodbath dept of wiping them
> off the face of the earth but alas, 'tis not our Master's way
> (good thing too perhaps as once upon a time many of us were
> there, steeped in our own muck n mire of sin(s) and Angels
> would love to "put us out of our miserable sinfulness").
> 
> as Christians, we are not to be offended anyways, as Jesus
> showed us the way here too on this pt of offense.
> 
> so stay confused and no one should be offended, just more
> focused on prayering for yer souls.
> 
> shalom.


Sorry for the wrong assumption here cb45, an assumption I made presuming that Parrothead was speaking for you. Like some overbearing men speak for their wives.


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## weR2

Parrothead said:


> If I was saying these things for your sake maybe I would, but I am actually saying them for the sake of people who might think wer2 actually knows what he is talking about.
> 
> As it is, living together before marriage makes a couple twice as likely to divorce after marriage (assuming they make it that far), but the question was "is it sin?".
> 
> It's not only a sin, but it's a bad idea. I am just giving you guys the benefit of MY experience so all y'all can expand your collective mind.



Hello Parrothead, I am sorry that what you see in my posts is that I PORTRAY myself as a "know-it-all". It is my attempt to not "tell" people how it is, but rather to throw other thoughts to them so that they can decipher for themselves of their own free will. Furthermore, I often times write from real life experiences. Spent 9yrs in Catholic schools, 3 yrs in Christian schools, then off to University, where I was exposed to the "outside world". I have had a full life! An extraordinary amount of real life experiences throughout the world (except for Asia), and while I can go on and on, it is not purpose to "prove" myself to anyone. HOWEVER, I do believe that it is my duty as a human being that follows the way of Christ, to "share" and grow.

From the knowledge and wisdom that I have gained, I have gained from others either directly or indirectly. I feel that it is now at this time in my life that I can begin to share, to assist others in their search, as it will also strengthen and enhance my spiritual growth. I know that I will never be competent enough to tell others what is a sin and what is not a sin, it reminds me, "Judge not lest ye be judged."

Us humans are struggling to decipher right from wrong, especially now as the world seems to be evolving so quickly. It is forums like these that we can use to share and expand our thoughts, we should not use them to "force" our ideas/ideals onto anyone, maybe we should be trying to share thoughts and ideas. Probably shouldn't be so adversarial to others questions, thoughts, or experiences. Maybe I am wrong here, but, in my interpretation, only God can can make the correct judgement. Wouldn't you agree? And if we are so sure of what we are advising, wouldn't that be saying that we are equal to Him?

Please share YOUR many experiences with us, it is from those experiences that we can learn and understand your thoughts.


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## omega

Has the OP ever even said if they have sex or not? I admit to scanning the last two pages rather quickly but I don't think she has said. As long as you are not having sex with him, what is the problem? 

Also, I'm confused about this cultural marriage thing. Are you part of the same culture that he is part of? If so, why do your parents care that he is "foreign"? And if you are not part of the same culture that he is part of, why on earth do you care if you have his type of cultural marriage that obviously is not part of your culture? 

Marriage is NOT about money and parents and government papers/visas. Marriage is about two people (and God if they want it to be), end of story. You need to stop looking for causes of conflict in your life (parents, dowry, etc). If you want to be with him and are certain that you want to marry him (which I suppose you are, if you are engaged to him), just marry him and live as husband and wife. If you aren't sure, give the guy a break and end the engagement and let him get on with his life. You aren't "saving" him from living in the streets. He's an adult man. He can take care of himself. If he can't, do you really want to be married to him anyway?

Stop having sex with the guy if you aren't married, since this is obviously against your religion, and just live together if you decide to stay together, without having sex!! I've had male roommates that I never got anywhere CLOSE to touching even with my little finger, nor would I have wanted to. Was that sinful in your eyes? It sure made the rent check easier.


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## Parrothead

weR2 said:


> Hello Parrothead, I am sorry that what you see in my posts is that I PORTRAY myself as a "know-it-all". It is my attempt to not "tell" people how it is, but rather to throw other thoughts to them so that they can decipher for themselves of their own free will. Furthermore, I often times write from real life experiences. Spent 9yrs in Catholic schools, 3 yrs in Christian schools, then off to University, where I was exposed to the "outside world". I have had a full life! An extraordinary amount of real life experiences throughout the world (except for Asia), and while I can go on and on, it is not purpose to "prove" myself to anyone. HOWEVER, I do believe that it is my duty as a human being that follows the way of Christ, to "share" and grow.
> 
> From the knowledge and wisdom that I have gained, I have gained from others either directly or indirectly. I feel that it is now at this time in my life that I can begin to share, to assist others in their search, as it will also strengthen and enhance my spiritual growth. I know that I will never be competent enough to tell others what is a sin and what is not a sin, it reminds me, "Judge not lest ye be judged."
> 
> Us humans are struggling to decipher right from wrong, especially now as the world seems to be evolving so quickly. It is forums like these that we can use to share and expand our thoughts, we should not use them to "force" our ideas/ideals onto anyone, maybe we should be trying to share thoughts and ideas. Probably shouldn't be so adversarial to others questions, thoughts, or experiences. Maybe I am wrong here, but, in my interpretation, only God can can make the correct judgement. Wouldn't you agree? And if we are so sure of what we are advising, wouldn't that be saying that we are equal to Him?
> 
> Please share YOUR many experiences with us, it is from those experiences that we can learn and understand your thoughts.


It's funny that you feel the need to present your "credentials" before you launch into your rant, and apologize for my apparent misunderstanding. You probably should have paid more attention in Catholic school. If you had, you wouldn't say things like this:



> I often confuse the 2 because I was raised Catholic then went to the "Christianity".


Huh? Most of us know that the Catholic church is a Christian denomination. We even know that Peter was an apostle of Jesus.

You really didn't learn much in Christian schools, either, or you wouldn't say things like this:



> NONE of us here really know the TRUTH, hence we cannot really say what God really wants.


You really went through 12 years of parochial school education and never heard a truth claim? How about "I am the way, the truth and the life"? And if you don't know the "truth", how can you say things like this:



> From what I read in the New Testament, Christ was continually trying to lead mankind forward, to slowly "abandon" many of the age-old traditions and thoughts. To bring man and woman together. Perhaps it was because of fear, that the people of those times could not "let go" of traditional ideals.


I don't know what NT you are reading, but that is an interpretation that nobody I know shares, and I know some pretty big time theologians. But you know more than they know, don't you?

Let's talk about this "judging" business. Most of the time that is the refuge of people who can't defend their statements. The intent of that verse is meant to convey that when you judge, you judge rightly, because you will be judged by the same standard. It was never meant to be used as a defense for people who can't get their facts straight.

I have told you that I think you are wrong, and I will tell you why you are wrong. I can't send you to hell. So I would appreciate it if you didn't lie about me by implication, either. 

So far, all you have done is try to impugn my character, having never presented an (accurate) defense of your own words. Either defend your own words or or get off your high horse, arrogance is a sin, too you know.


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## Clarence Rutherford

ClipClop said:


> So you are having sex?
> 
> Are you in the us?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





omega said:


> Has the OP ever even said if they have sex or not? I admit to scanning the last two pages rather quickly but I don't think she has said. As long as you are not having sex with him, what is the problem?


 Would suppose the answer is yes..


lebogang said:


> Hi. I'm a christian currently *living with my fiance as if we were married. *


Didn't see it initially either.


omega said:


> Stop having sex with the guy if you aren't married, since this is obviously against your religion, and just live together if you decide to stay together, without having sex!! I've had male roommates that I never got anywhere CLOSE to touching even with my little finger, nor would I have wanted to. Was that sinful in your eyes? It sure made the rent check easier.


In Catholic premarital counseling (we're not Catholic now, but she was when we dated and got married in the church), the lay couple asked future wife and I if we were sexual.
We and the other couple answered honestly.
The couple recommended cooling the sex for a year before the wedding.

Weren't living together but had been having sex on weekends in our LDR.
We followed the advice. 
Still slept in same bed, cuddling, etc., but surprisingly, did little or nothing else sexual like sex-play.

We were Christians and of course felt some shame over our activity.
_Having sex outside of marriage/engagement wasn't something I would consider in my early 20s... _She and I were 32 and 35 when we met... so I think we both were kinda "hungry..."

Was hard but well worth the wait and I for one am glad we cooled our sex.

Made me consider if I really loved *her* or *her body*.


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## Sameold

Well, the whole multiple marriages thing, which one counts as being married to you and your fiance?
My husband is from Africa, and almost all his cousins and friends had three: church, courthouse, and traditional. In the case of one, there was over a year between the church and traditional weddings, I don't remember when the legal wedding happened, but the couple was living together from the day of the church wedding on.
It is a huge financial burden on the newlyweds, these multiple celebrations. (As the relative/friend in the US, we get hit up with please helps all the time.) I'd suggest that you just get the legal wedding taken care of as that's the one your immigration services surely cares about, and wait on the whole feast until that's financially feasible. Your folks won't be happy, but they're not going to be happy anyway, right? They don't want you to marry this person, so if you're going to marry him, waiting another year or ten, isn't going to please them.
Those of you unfamiliar with this situation might consider the cultural requirements to be similar to having two wedding receptions as well as a courthouse ceremony, both of which will have a full catered dinner and open bar. If the family has relocated from the ancestral village to an urban area, the traditional wedding will be usually held in the village, so add travel expenses. All of this is after the young man has paid a dowry to the young woman's father, which can be as much as a down payment on a house.


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