# My wife is emotionally cheating! desperate help needed!!! please!!



## showtime

Hi everyone, I'm new here and feel like I am in panice mode trying to get my wife back! 
So heres the deal, me and my wife have been married for almost three years, and have been together for six, we have two kids age 5 and 3, our relationship hasn't been the best from the beginning, we met and hung out briefly before she got pregnant unexpectadly, we have had our issues with the relationship from the beginning, but I feel like we both do really care for eachother, and have had some great times together, amongst all the bad, she has told me time and time again what she wants from me, and for a short while i would change and things would be better, then I would get comfortable again, and be back in the same boat, I do feel like I am depressed at times, and I know our family suffers because of that.
So now I just discovered she is having an emotional affair with a patient of hers at work, they have been texting nonstop for weeks now, and when I say nonstop, I mean every other minute!!! I am so torn up over it, and have expressed my feelings about this and told her I love her more than anything, and want to change for good, but she said she doesnt want to quit talking to this guy, and it kills me. When I confronted her about it, I was calm and collective to my suprise, but she has talked about divorce in the past, and now this doesnt help, I feel she can't look past her emotional affair to focus on our family. I don't know what to do from here, and I am in panic mode, and my heart hurts so bad, she is very special, so I can understand why somebody else would want to talk to her, but at the same time it's my wife and my family, and she acts like the emotional affair is more important to her than me and wants out? but I feel deep down she does love me and want a good family life, but she always wants something better and right now, and I try to do the best I can to satisfy her needs, I just want her back, and this other guy out, but she is emotionally attached to this guy, and I dont know how to get her out, and I know she has to make up her mind to get out of the emotional affair, I want to help her and get it done right now, so we can move forward with our family, and be stronger than ever!! 
Sorry for such a long story, but any help would be so greatly appreciated!!! Thank you!!


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## Amplexor

showtime said:


> I just want her back, and this other guy out, but she is emotionally attached to this guy, and I don't know how to get her out, and I know she has to make up her mind to get out of the emotional affair, I want to help her and get it done right now, so we can move forward with our family, and be stronger than ever!!


1. Don't panic, stay as strong and confident around her as you can. She needs to see you are in control of yourself and have the stones to take on getting the marriage back on track.

2. Don't dote on her, a complete reversal in your attentions will likely drive her further away.

3. Usually an EA is driven by the spouse searching for something they are not getting at home. Read The Five Languages of Love by Chapman to see if you really understand her love language.

4. Whatever changes you feel you need to make, commit to them for life, you can not faultier. Make sure they are changes you can live with forever. But don't lose yourself in this either, you've made mistakes but she's made them too. Especially the EA.

5. Recognize that you are in a highly stressed state and everything she does, positive or negative is magnified in your eyes. 

6. Don't rehash the issues over and over. If there is something new discuss it but don't pick the scabs.

7. Don't profess your love or commitment at every turn, your actions will speak louder than words at this point. Only a sustained effort will be recognized by her with time. Your words mean little as you have failed her before.

8. You are correct that contact with TOM must end. How to get her there varies from case to case. It may take some time, some track record on your part or an ultimatum but she will need to cross that bridge if she is to really see you in a better light.

9. Don't attack TOM, he is her emotional center right now, she'll just defend him and resent you.

10. Strap in, this is going to take a long time if it is going to be fixed correctly.


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## Tanelornpete

Beware - this is going to be rather long...

Welcome to Talk About Marriage. You've come to a good place. Please linger a while and read up on how others have dealt with similar troubles. 

I am so sorry that you are facing this trouble. It's very painful and sad. However, there is hope. You love her, and you mention that she loves you. That's a great, great sign. It's a good way to start a healthy recovery from this disaster.

First things first: calm down! Take a deep breath (or more). Nothing happens in an instant with regard to affairs, and there is a process you can got through to help end this and start heading down the right path together. You have time. Experience your fear, anger, etc. - allow yourself to feel these things (since you are going to anyway!) The key here is not to act on those emotions. Don't act out of fear, or anger, or any other emotion. The actions you can take to save your marriage are deliberate, thoughtful, and meaningful. Your emotions will go all over the map. Allow that to happen.

There is a set process that you can use (we've found this to be very effective) by which you can recover your marriage.

First, I am sure you have an inkling of *why affairs start* - you mention it in your post: things go great, then die down, and get 'comfortable,' etc. Most marriages go this way. It's not often that people start out being _deliberately_ married. By _deliberately married,_ I mean making deliberate choices every day that are designed to strengthening the marriage. Most people go through much of their married life 'status quo' - until something major comes along - at which case they jump to work and fix things - and then go back into dormant mode. We've found that your marriage will be much more successful, and much more happy, if you work at it all the time, rather than when things get so bad there is pain.

The reason? Because things don't go bad 'all of the sudden.' It is a gradual process, and eventually there's enough pain that a fight, or an affair, or some other incorrect solution rears it's ugly head. 

So you know *why affairs start*. To end an affair is also a deliberate process - you take the first step, if that works, you move on to means of recovering. If the first step does not work, you move on to the second - and if that works, you move on to recovery. If that does not work, you move to the third step, etc.

_Before you start:_ make a vow to yourself that you will become the Greatest Spouse In The World. You will become the person your spouse married, the one they fell in love with. 

*First step:* Sit down with your wife and formally request that she end the affair. Don't fight about it, don't plead, don't try to bargain. All you want to do is make the statement, pure and simple. What this does is starts the process of recovery, regardless of whether your spouse agrees or not. By formally requesting an end to the affair, you bring it to the forefront as a focal point for both you and your spouse. It can no longer be ignored, excused, hidden, etc.

Part of the formal request is to ask you spouse to *stop ALL contact* with this other person. This is a bigger step than you can at first imagine - there's a lot of information that we can get to you later.

If your spouse agrees to stop the affair, you can move on to working on recovery (yes, there are some deliberate things you can do there too)

*Second Step:* If your spouse does not agree to end the affair, then you must bring it to light. That means exposing it to the right people. The Other Person's spouse/significant other should be aware that their partner is being unfaithful. If the affair is at a work place, alert the Human Resources Dept (or equivalent) about the affair. Talk to parents, pastors, counselors, friends, etc. 

This step is NOT designed nor intended as anything vindictive. It is used in order to bring the affair to light. Most affairs are hidden things - part of the allure is the 'secret-ness' of the whole thing. They are fantasies that are created in a world of dishonesty and illusion, manipulated by misdirection. What this step does is shed light on the affair - revealing it's ugly side.

If this step succeeds (it quite often does) you can move on to recovering your marriage. If it fails, then you have some work ahead of you. 

*The third step:* This involves what you've already begun. For the time being you will have to live with your spouse being unfaithful, and hurting you every day. In this step you will continue to be the person your spouse fell in love with - and grow to be more than that - someone they desire. 

HOWEVER! _This step must be temporary._ No one can continue to be hurt by the careless actions of their spouse indefinitely. At some point you will lose all love for your partner altogether - something you don't want to do. Perhaps set yourself six months or so. Stick by that limit. 

There are two reasons for this step: one reason is that you will leave a lasting impression on your spouse about the person they were harming. The other reason is that you can face the next step with grace - knowing that you did all you really could. 

It is quite possible during this step that your spouse will begin to fall in love with you again. That's the whole purpose of this step - to rekindle the love you once had, an to build on that. 

If, however, your spouse continues in the affair, and the end of your preset time allotment comes - your must move to the next step:

*Fourth Step:* Here you will either move out, or move your spouse out of your life. You will break all contact with your spouse, and allow them to face the full consequences of their choice of someone else over you. This step is not one to be taken lightly, and there are some specific things you must do while setting this one up. Don't undertake it without advice from people who've had experience with it.

Many affairs don't get this far. I doubt seriously that yours will at all. In any event - don't skip over any steps. Do them one at a time, in the order given. And keep posting. We'll be here.


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## showtime

Thank you I greatly appreciate the advice!!!, I tried to do most of those things already, I am having trouble with number 1 on your list, I feel like I have to tell her how hurt I am, and how much I love her, but that doesnt seem to work, also she says today she does not want to quit texting this guy, and wont quit texting him, and that tears me up so bad, I feel like when we sit down and have a good conversation, and progress to moving forward, she goes to work and texts the guy, comes home for lunch and we are in the same boat we were before, me out the door and eventually the new guy in. She seems so oblivious to this other guys intentions which is to obviously take it to the next level, which is sex. She says its not like that, but I can almost guarantee it is for this new guy, wether he says so or not, I just dont know how to handle the fact that she wont quit texting him, and focus on me and our family! any more thoughts on this would help immensly!! thank you!


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## Amplexor

showtime said:


> , I am having trouble with number 1 on your list, I feel like I have to tell her how hurt I am, and how much I love her, but that doesnt seem to work, also she says today she does not want to quit texting this guy, and wont quit texting him, and that tears me up so bad,



Read Dobson's Love Must be Tough.


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## turnera

You must call her parents and his wife/parents and tell them what is going on. She needs to see that what she is doing is wrong and no one can bring that home like a parent. She won't hear it from you. If she has siblings, call them, too. Ask them to help you save the marriage, at least for the kids' sakes.

She has to be away from his influence before she will ever even consider you again. So your first step has to be stopping their contact. 

If she refuses, call her family and his family. If they refuse to get involved, visit her HR department and tell them what's going on. Your marriage will NOT survive if she doesn't stop contact, and she can always get another job. She will be mad, but your marriage can survive her anger; it can't survive another man.


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## showtime

Tanelornpete, thank you for the list, that is excellent advice!

Amplexor, thank you for posting as well, but I feel like I don't have any focus or time to sit down and read a book, it is so hard for me to focus on anything but the task at hand, I am having trouble working and total loss of motivation and focus in life, I try to keep my eye on the prize, but I don't want to beat the subject to death and push her farther away, we are supposed to talk about things tonite, and figure something out, I tried to demand that she stop texting this guy, and I thought she said she told him that I found out and that wasnt fair to her marriage and family, and then he must have texted her this morning, and now things are back to where they were, and she claims she never told me she was going to stop texting him? I apologize in advance, I am just freaking out so bad, my heart is sunk so far into my chest, I am trying so hard to keep myself together!! Thank you!!!


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## turnera

Have you talked to this guy? A lot of times, they will run for the hills if you turn up the heat.


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## showtime

turnera said:


> You must call her parents and his wife/parents and tell them what is going on. She needs to see that what she is doing is wrong and no one can bring that home like a parent. She won't hear it from you. If she has siblings, call them, too. Ask them to help you save the marriage, at least for the kids' sakes.
> 
> She has to be away from his influence before she will ever even consider you again. So your first step has to be stopping their contact.
> 
> If she refuses, call her family and his family. If they refuse to get involved, visit her HR department and tell them what's going on. Your marriage will NOT survive if she doesn't stop contact, and she can always get another job. She will be mad, but your marriage can survive her anger; it can't survive another man.


Thank you Turnera, i dont know who this guy is? or his parents, if she wont cut off contact with him, I was going to call her mother and have a heart to heart with her, we dont have the best relationship, but she has always been on my side when she felt her daughter was doing something wrong. Thank you!!! 

P.S. one of my fears though is she will resent me for contacting her mom, and push her farther away?? even though she looks up to her mom and they are best friends, if she doesnt agree with something she says, she wont follow her moms advice??


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## showtime

turnera said:


> Have you talked to this guy? A lot of times, they will run for the hills if you turn up the heat.


I havent talked to this guy, he knows that I know, but I fear the worst, that if I do call him and see what is going on, that will give them more to talk about and in the end push her into his arms, and despise me for doing that???? I'm so desperate I dont know what to do!!!!!!


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## turnera

You need to STOP operating out of fear. This is your wife and your marriage. It is your JOB to fight for them. So what if your wife gets mad at you? If she leaves you over a phone call, you don't want that marriage anyway. 

And it doesn't matter if she doesn't follow her mom's advice. The reason for getting her parents and siblings involved is that it shatters her bubble, her fantasy. It makes her realize these guys, her family, are NOT going to welcome this guy home for Thanksgiving...hmmm, maybe there's something wrong with this picture...you know?

Right now the most important thing to do is STOP the contact. Get her phone, get the phone number, and go online and backtrack to get his info. Pay a service if you have to. It's worth it to save your marriage.

You HAVE to talk to this guy. Nothing they say about you can be any worse than what they're saying now. And half the time, if a guy's just looking to score, if the husband shows up and gives him what for, he'll disappear. And go looking for someone else who's less trouble.


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## showtime

turnera said:


> You need to STOP operating out of fear. This is your wife and your marriage. It is your JOB to fight for them. So what if your wife gets mad at you? If she leaves you over a phone call, you don't want that marriage anyway.
> 
> And it doesn't matter if she doesn't follow her mom's advice. The reason for getting her parents and siblings involved is that it shatters her bubble, her fantasy. It makes her realize these guys, her family, are NOT going to welcome this guy home for Thanksgiving...hmmm, maybe there's something wrong with this picture...you know?
> 
> Right now the most important thing to do is STOP the contact. Get her phone, get the phone number, and go online and backtrack to get his info. Pay a service if you have to. It's worth it to save your marriage.
> 
> You HAVE to talk to this guy. Nothing they say about you can be any worse than what they're saying now. And half the time, if a guy's just looking to score, if the husband shows up and gives him what for, he'll disappear. And go looking for someone else who's less trouble.


 That does make me feel better and give me more confidence!! Thank you!!! I am willing to do whatever it takes for this girl, I do have his phone number, I found out this was going on through our cell phone bill, I could not believe how many texts were taking place, all day every 2 or 3 minutes back and forth, so devastating to find out, my heart was pounding so hard I thought I was gonna have a heart attack, and I'm only 30 years old!!! Thank you so much for all the advice, but I still fell like I need more?


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## showtime

Another thing is, what do I say to this guy to make him stop texting my wife?? I assume the obvious, like its my wife I love her, your interfering with my family, stuff like that, but what happens when hge texts my wife and tells her?? 'cause you know its going to happen, and what if she tells him not to stop, and don't worry about her husband?? I can't except the fact that if that happens then my wife isn't worth being with, even if that would eventually be the case???? SO CONFUSED!!!!


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## showtime

And who should I call first?? this guy or her mom??


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## turnera

So WHAT if he texts your wife?

Look, this is a war. She is being brainwashed by the affair. It's your job to protect her from the fog that's enveloping her. 

How would you act if this was a guy who was shooting your wife up with heroin?

You'd be MAD at him!

BE mad. You have a right to.

Stop acting like a scared kid. YOU are the person here being hurt, YOU are the one who has the RIGHT to fight back and be mad.

If you get her away from her drug, and the fog clears, and she realizes what she has done to you, you can fix your marriage. 

But that will never happen until you stop their contact.

Personally, I'd call her mom, her dad, any brothers and sisters, and her best friend. Then I'd get in my car and go get MY best friend and go VISIT this guy. Never touch him. Very calmly look him in the eye and say 'you are messing with a married woman, and I do not intend to allow this to continue. It's your choice on how much you're willing to risk to continue contacting my wife. This is my one and only warning.'

Then turn around and leave. Make sure you bring a witness. Make sure you don't threaten violence. Then go home an hire a PI to dig up as much dirt as you can on this guy and start getting prepared to make his life messy if he doesn't back off.


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## Tanelornpete

> Another thing is, what do I say to this guy to make him stop texting my wife?? I assume the obvious, like its my wife I love her, your interfering with my family, stuff like that, but what happens when hge texts my wife and tells her?? 'cause you know its going to happen, and what if she tells him not to stop, and don't worry about her husband?? I can't except the fact that if that happens then my wife isn't worth being with, even if that would eventually be the case???? SO CONFUSED!!!!


Calm!!! Calm!!! You will be ok. This is not the end of life as we know it, there is hope. Just take those deep breaths and realize that panic is an argument you are having with yourself where you tell yourself you are failing at something. Ignore that. Use your words instead to get to the point you want to be.

Keep this in mind! You cannot MAKE anyone do ANYTHING (unless you put a gun to their head - but even then only so long as they choose not to do it...) You can't MAKE this guy stop. 

YOU DON'T NEED TO. All you need to do is let him know that this is harming your marriage, ask him to stop, and then move on from there. He will stop when the cost of continuing outweighs the benefits of continuing.

You say this guy is a PATIENT where your wife works? What profession is your wife?

This could be an ethical dilemma for her workplace - my suggestion would be - 

AFTER YOU DELIBERATELY TAKE STEP ONE OF WHAT I WROTE ABOVE

- to contact her work and let them know what is going on. They DO NOT want any law suits, harassment charges, or an ethics investigation into the affair. They will do what they can to stop it.

Calm.....breathe...smile.....live....There is hope.


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## Affaircare

Showtime will you do me a favor?

When you write, you write in big, long sentences with commas as punctuation and go on for paragraphs with no pause, no end of sentence and no spaces. So will you please take a moment, take 10 slow deep breaths, and write in a shorter sentence with a pause? Then maybe do a few short sentences together and then space. It's very hard to read run-on strings of thought (even though I know that is exactly how your mind feels right now). 

Next, I have a couple comments, okay? 

What Amp and Tanelorn have told you is GOLDEN. Please print those and start working on them step by step. Even if you can't do all of them, do a little on the first step...and keep working at that until it's done. Okay? THAT is the stuff that will save your marriage! So take a breath and please listen--consider what they say because it's good. 

Next here is an article I wrote of Four Things to Do Today to Save Your Marriage. In summary: 
1. Don't be in a rush--take a deep breath and try to stop panicking. Don't make rash decisions.
2. Take responsibility for your part of what occurred--for the dynamics to change in your marriage, something has to change and the only thing you can change is YOU. 
3. Do a 180 degree turn from what you have been doing--don't plead, don't tell them you love them, and don't promise you'll change or go to counseling. Do the opposite of your instinct. 
4. Get advice from an expert--some folks will come along whom you trust to give you good thoughts. Pick a "good counsel" and listen to that person. 

The NUMBER ONE thing to do now: calm down. Seriously. Do you meditate or something? I personally pray...do you? Write back and tell us what you plan to do in order to calm down.


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## showtime

turnera said:


> So WHAT if he texts your wife?
> 
> Look, this is a war. She is being brainwashed by the affair. It's your job to protect her from the fog that's enveloping her.
> 
> How would you act if this was a guy who was shooting your wife up with heroin?
> 
> You'd be MAD at him!
> 
> BE mad. You have a right to.
> 
> Stop acting like a scared kid. YOU are the person here being hurt, YOU are the one who has the RIGHT to fight back and be mad.
> 
> If you get her away from her drug, and the fog clears, and she realizes what she has done to you, you can fix your marriage.
> 
> But that will never happen until you stop their contact.
> 
> Personally, I'd call her mom, her dad, any brothers and sisters, and her best friend. Then I'd get in my car and go get MY best friend and go VISIT this guy. Never touch him. Very calmly look him in the eye and say 'you are messing with a married woman, and I do not intend to allow this to continue. It's your choice on how much you're willing to risk to continue contacting my wife. This is my one and only warning.'
> 
> Then turn around and leave. Make sure you bring a witness. Make sure you don't threaten violence. Then go home an hire a PI to dig up as much dirt as you can on this guy and start getting prepared to make his life messy if he doesn't back off.


 Thank you for your brutal honesty, that is what I need, she is being brainwashed and she cant even see it!!!! thats the part I am trying to get across to her, but I don't know where this guy lives, and she won't tell me cause' she knows I would probably do something like that, and confront him!


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## showtime

Affaircare said:


> Showtime will you do me a favor?
> 
> When you write, you write in big, long sentences with commas as punctuation and go on for paragraphs with no pause, no end of sentence and no spaces. So will you please take a moment, take 10 slow deep breaths, and write in a shorter sentence with a pause? Then maybe do a few short sentences together and then space. It's very hard to read run-on strings of thought (even though I know that is exactly how your mind feels right now).
> 
> Next, I have a couple comments, okay?
> 
> What Amp and Tanelorn have told you is GOLDEN. Please print those and start working on them step by step. Even if you can't do all of them, do a little on the first step...and keep working at that until it's done. Okay? THAT is the stuff that will save your marriage! So take a breath and please listen--consider what they say because it's good.
> 
> Next here is an article I wrote of Four Things to Do Today to Save Your Marriage. In summary:
> 1. Don't be in a rush--take a deep breath and try to stop panicking. Don't make rash decisions.
> 2. Take responsibility for your part of what occurred--for the dynamics to change in your marriage, something has to change and the only thing you can change is YOU.
> 3. Do a 180 degree turn from what you have been doing--don't plead, don't tell them you love them, and don't promise you'll change or go to counseling. Do the opposite of your instinct.
> 4. Get advice from an expert--some folks will come along whom you trust to give you good thoughts. Pick a "good counsel" and listen to that person.
> 
> The NUMBER ONE thing to do now: calm down. Seriously. Do you meditate or something? I personally pray...do you? Write back and tell us what you plan to do in order to calm down.


 Your right, I apologize for the sentences. I am in to much of a panic mode to focus. 
Could you please explain in more detail number 3? I know this will be a good step, but it's hard for me to calm down and put them into place. So if you could tell me more about step three, such as, "do the opposite of your instinct" I know what they are, and it sounds like you do too? If you could give me more details about that, I think it will help with my overall "calmness" ... Thank you!!


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## showtime

Tanelornpete said:


> Calm!!! Calm!!! You will be ok. This is not the end of life as we know it, there is hope. Just take those deep breaths and realize that panic is an argument you are having with yourself where you tell yourself you are failing at something. Ignore that. Use your words instead to get to the point you want to be.
> 
> Keep this in mind! You cannot MAKE anyone do ANYTHING (unless you put a gun to their head - but even then only so long as they choose not to do it...) You can't MAKE this guy stop.
> 
> YOU DON'T NEED TO. All you need to do is let him know that this is harming your marriage, ask him to stop, and then move on from there. He will stop when the cost of continuing outweighs the benefits of continuing.
> 
> You say this guy is a PATIENT where your wife works? What profession is your wife?
> 
> This could be an ethical dilemma for her workplace - my suggestion would be -
> 
> AFTER YOU DELIBERATELY TAKE STEP ONE OF WHAT I WROTE ABOVE
> 
> - to contact her work and let them know what is going on. They DO NOT want any law suits, harassment charges, or an ethics investigation into the affair. They will do what they can to stop it.
> 
> Calm.....breathe...smile.....live....There is hope.


 my wife works at a small doctors office, she is one of the nurses. And she claims this guy has a few of the girls numbers (other nurse/secratary) there and he talks to all of them from time to time. She also says that his parents and other family are also patients there and she likes them too. And that is not helping my situation either. Thank you!


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## showtime

Another thing is, this guy is in the military and was supposed to go on leave or something, but it got pushed back. She said that she felt upset that he wasn't leaving for my sake, and she was happy he wasn't leaving yet for her sake?? 
P.S. Thank you all soooo much for replying and trying to talk me through this!!! I appreciate this so much, and hope once I get past my issue I can help others here with theirs!!


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## showtime

Also, we are going to have some time tonite to talk to each other and try to get some things figured out, away from the kids. Any pointers on what to say, and what not to say??


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## Tanelornpete

First - do you know what people do when they run around in panic? They smack their heads on the cupboard and end up in the emergency room with a concussion. True story - I've been there...

First: in regard to panic - ask yourself (and then answer) - 'what's the worst that could happen right now?'

Next, regarding your wife's chats. I've worked in the medical field - I can tell you that the idea of nurses chatting with patients in their off time is *at the least* highly frowned on. However - lets deal with tonight first:



> Also, we are going to have some time tonite to talk to each other and try to get some things figured out, away from the kids. Any pointers on what to say, and what not to say??


I would be absolutely calm and straight forward. Don't argue, don't allow any emotional involvement to cloud what you have to say. I'd even suggest writing it out ahead of time. Might look really silly, but the MAIN point is that you want to state, in unequivocal and clear terms, is that her involvement with this guy is harming you, and your relationship. Let her know that you want to work on the marriage, and that you are willing to do what it takes to get things right between you two, but as long as she is relying on this other guy to do what you should be doing, it can't happen. Tell her you are her best friend and that you really care about her. And then ask her to cut off all contact with him and return to the marriage.

Don't get into any argument, no threats of vindictiveness or retribution, no pleading. Just say it and then leave it up to her. And when she gives you her answer, just accept it, because it will give you the knowledge you need on how to proceed. I'd even suggest moving on the whatever other topic you have in mind for a while - let her bring it up if she wants to.

If she does ask what you plan to do, let her know that if she doesn't stop the chat, you will contact this man, and the office, and ask them to help you get it stopped. 




> Another thing is, this guy is in the military and was supposed to go on leave or something, but it got pushed back. She said that she felt upset that he wasn't leaving for my sake, and she was happy he wasn't leaving yet for her sake??


An affair is a fantasy world, a dream world where the Other Man is Perfect, meets ALL her needs. You are (at best) an impediment to her happiness, at the worst, you are deliberately trying to stop her from being happy. Regardless -most of what she is thinking and saying right now is not going to make any sense at all. It is pretty much all gibberish. Glean what you can from it, but take it all with a grain of salt.


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## turnera

You are wasting your time talking to her right now about your relationship. As long as OM is in the picture, EVERYTHING you say is intended to keep her from being happy.

That is ALL she will see.

Don't waste your time on this until you have (1) hired a PI or a service to get this guy's contact information and talked to him; (2) called your wife's family and asked them all to talk to her; (3) established that they are no longer in contact.


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## showtime

Tanelornpete said:


> First - do you know what people do when they run around in panic? They smack their heads on the cupboard and end up in the emergency room with a concussion. True story - I've been there...
> 
> First: in regard to panic - ask yourself (and then answer) - 'what's the worst that could happen right now?'
> 
> Next, regarding your wife's chats. I've worked in the medical field - I can tell you that the idea of nurses chatting with patients in their off time is *at the least* highly frowned on. However - lets deal with tonight first:
> 
> 
> 
> I would be absolutely calm and straight forward. Don't argue, don't allow any emotional involvement to cloud what you have to say. I'd even suggest writing it out ahead of time. Might look really silly, but the MAIN point is that you want to state, in unequivocal and clear terms, is that her involvement with this guy is harming you, and your relationship. Let her know that you want to work on the marriage, and that you are willing to do what it takes to get things right between you two, but as long as she is relying on this other guy to do what you should be doing, it can't happen. Tell her you are her best friend and that you really care about her. And then ask her to cut off all contact with him and return to the marriage.
> 
> Don't get into any argument, no threats of vindictiveness or retribution, no pleading. Just say it and then leave it up to her. And when she gives you her answer, just accept it, because it will give you the knowledge you need on how to proceed. I'd even suggest moving on the whatever other topic you have in mind for a while - let her bring it up if she wants to.
> 
> If she does ask what you plan to do, let her know that if she doesn't stop the chat, you will contact this man, and the office, and ask them to help you get it stopped.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An affair is a fantasy world, a dream world where the Other Man is Perfect, meets ALL her needs. You are (at best) an impediment to her happiness, at the worst, you are deliberately trying to stop her from being happy. Regardless -most of what she is thinking and saying right now is not going to make any sense at all. It is pretty much all gibberish. Glean what you can from it, but take it all with a grain of salt.


excellent advice!! thank you, I will let everybody know how it goes tonite!!


----------



## showtime

RWB said:


> ShowTime,
> 
> I have been where you live right now (7 months from finding out about my wife's affairs).
> 
> turnera is right on this, She must see clear of the fantasy. Busting all parties is not vindictive it is TRUTH. Dial the number and let him know where you stand. I still remember that call. I could barely speak 3 words in without pause. Don't threaten him! If he is married make it clear that you WILL let his wife know as well. You can never be wrong in the TRUTH.
> 
> Now something you must be ready for. Women can lie. Women will lie and look you straight in face. Now the wisdom, Affairs exposed generally are worse than what the Betrayer will admit to. You have stated that it appears to only be an EA with text and talk. I can tell you from my own personal life and reading here this is rarely the case. Be prepared for the TRUTH, if you wife is as confused as you say, I would not be surprised if they have not been meeting in secret. Be prepared. Good Luck, Be Strong.


Thank you! and yes I do believe they are meeting secretly, even if it's only for a few minutes at a time. Why should I trust anything she says, right??


----------



## showtime

Well I talked to her last night. All I did was tell her how I felt about her relationship with this guy and that it needed to end. I was calm and rational. That being said, she is just to caught up in all of this to see clearly. I sense that she doesn't even care what I have to say? Do I move forward for our sake? Or just let it be and move on??


----------



## showtime

OK!! I just got off the phone with him!!! I am shaking so bad I can hardly type!!! I told him he was interfering with are marriage and its my family. And he needs to stop. He said OK? So we'll see what happens?


----------



## turnera

Do you have a keylogger on her computer? You need to get it on there to see if he is stopping. Do you have access to her phone records every day?

If he DOES stop, expect her to go ballistic, blame you, threaten to leave you, etc. Typical fog speak. Just nod knowingly, offer her a cookie, and say 'ok.' Nothing you say (or she says) will matter until she has gone through withdrawal.


----------



## showtime

turnera said:


> Do you have a keylogger on her computer? You need to get it on there to see if he is stopping. Do you have access to her phone records every day?
> 
> If he DOES stop, expect her to go ballistic, blame you, threaten to leave you, etc. Typical fog speak. Just nod knowingly, offer her a cookie, and say 'ok.' Nothing you say (or she says) will matter until she has gone through withdrawal.


 I don't have a keylogger, but I do have online access to the phone records at anytime, so I can see exactly what time texts get sent and phone calls, to and from each number. That is how I found out in the first place. She was hidingit obviously, and I called her out once I saw the phone records online. The texts to this same number were overwhelming. Since I called her out a few days ago, the texts have went way down, to only a few a day.


----------



## turnera

That's why I suggested a keylogger. She knows you check her phone records. They probably have each other's email address by now.

You have a 50/50 chance he's really going to stop; the other half is that they just get 'smarter' about their relationship - which is actually half the appeal of an affair. You have to be even smarter. You can download a cheap keylogger for about $30 and have it email you the records.


----------



## showtime

turnera said:


> That's why I suggested a keylogger. She knows you check her phone records. They probably have each other's email address by now.
> 
> You have a 50/50 chance he's really going to stop; the other half is that they just get 'smarter' about their relationship - which is actually half the appeal of an affair. You have to be even smarter. You can download a cheap keylogger for about $30 and have it email you the records.


Problem is, she doesn't really send e mails or even use the computer at home, but she has access at work? I just don't know how to get through to her, I am going to call her mom and see what she knows, and ask for her help.


----------



## showtime

SO I just talked to her mom, and she told me that she does know this is going on, but she didn't know the extent of it. She says this guy is just a kid and is telling her what she wants to hear. Which I agree with and understand. Her mom said she would call her and talk to her again (Her mom lives in another state). I know her mom wants the best for our family and knows that her daughter is doing something wrong. When she told her daughter to stop, the first time, she got upset with her mom, because she knows her mom is right. Problem is getting her out of this "fog" and ,moving forward!


----------



## showtime

Now my wife found out I called in reinforcements, she's absolutly pissed!!! she wants me out!! What do I do now???


----------



## Amplexor

Exposure is can very much be a nuclear option so expect some fall out. I never used it on my wife but it was a tool available to me. First off her reaction of anger should have been expected. She has not admitted to herself she has done anything wrong. She has no right to force you out, you are there to try and save the marriage. She is the one that is in a relationship that is poisoning your marriage. If she demands separation tell her to leave but for now you are willing to work through this. Hod your ground but be steady and don't escalate. You've already stated your boundaries. He needs to be out of the relationship and you will do whatever things you promised to make the marriage better. If she stays expect the anger and resentment to stay around for a while.


----------



## turnera

showtime said:


> Now my wife found out I called in reinforcements, she's absolutly pissed!!! she wants me out!! What do I do now???


DO NOT LEAVE YOUR HOUSE!!!!!!!!!

You have NO reason to leave your house. Do NOT listen to her!

This is to be expected. We told you she would be mad. They ALL get mad. They ALL threaten divorce or tell YOU to get out. There is a SCRIPT for wayward wives, and she is following it word for word.

She'll probably tell you she was thinking of dropping him but, now that you've done this awful thing, she won't, and it's all your fault. 

Like I said, IGNORE HER!

And DO NOT MOVE OUT no matter what she says. Tell her she is welcome to leave but you AND THE KIDS will stay right at home where you belong.

Calm down. It will blow over. It always does when they realize they have shame and blow up and then realize they don't have a leg to stand on.

Just ignore everything she says for the next few days. It is an ADDICT trying to maintain control over keeping getting her fix.

Ignore her.


----------



## showtime

Amplexor said:


> Exposure is can very much be a nuclear option so expect some fall out. I never used it on my wife but it was a tool available to me. First off her reaction of anger should have been expected. She has not admitted to herself she has done anything wrong. She has no right to force you out, you are there to try and save the marriage. She is the one that is in a relationship that is poisoning your marriage. If she demands separation tell her to leave but for now you are willing to work through this. Hod your ground but be steady and don't escalate. You've already stated your boundaries. He needs to be out of the relationship and you will do whatever things you promised to make the marriage better. If she stays expect the anger and resentment to stay around for a while.


 Yeah I expected her to be upset, she called me and is saying "If you get me fired from my job", because I think this is severely interupting her day at work, but I told her she brought this on herself and it's not my fault she might get fired?


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## turnera

Exactly. If ANYONE gets her fired, it's herself.


----------



## showtime

turnera said:


> DO NOT LEAVE YOUR HOUSE!!!!!!!!!
> 
> You have NO reason to leave your house. Do NOT listen to her!
> 
> This is to be expected. We told you she would be mad. They ALL get mad. They ALL threaten divorce or tell YOU to get out. There is a SCRIPT for wayward wives, and she is following it word for word.
> 
> She'll probably tell you she was thinking of dropping him but, now that you've done this awful thing, she won't, and it's all your fault.
> 
> Like I said, IGNORE HER!
> 
> And DO NOT MOVE OUT no matter what she says. Tell her she is welcome to leave but you AND THE KIDS will stay right at home where you belong.
> 
> Calm down. It will blow over. It always does when they realize they have shame and blow up and then realize they don't have a leg to stand on.
> 
> Just ignore everything she says for the next few days. It is an ADDICT trying to maintain control over keeping getting her fix.
> 
> Ignore her.


 Thank you for the vote of confidence, without everybodies help, so far I don't think we would be this far, and it seems like the peices are coming together, but I am still uncertain of what to do next??!


----------



## turnera

Just sit back and wait for the fallout. Be vigilant to see if they stop contacting each other. If they don't, hire someone to get his family's contact information and call them - especially if he's young - and tell them what he is doing. If that doesn't stop them, call her work.

You have the control here, ok? All you have to do is be yourself, be calm, KNOW that you're doing the right thing and that she CAN get over this and come back to work on the marriage with you. But don't expect her to stop thinking about him overnight. It may take months or longer before she is fully invested back in the marriage. But stopping the contact is the most essential part. For now, that's all you should be focusing on. That and not blowing up, or being whiny or needy. Smell good, look good, help with the kids (but not too much!) and house...be the husband she wants so that when she comes to her senses, she'll realize you've been what she wants all along.


----------



## showtime

turnera said:


> Just sit back and wait for the fallout. Be vigilant to see if they stop contacting each other. If they don't, hire someone to get his family's contact information and call them - especially if he's young - and tell them what he is doing. If that doesn't stop them, call her work.
> 
> You have the control here, ok? All you have to do is be yourself, be calm, KNOW that you're doing the right thing and that she CAN get over this and come back to work on the marriage with you. But don't expect her to stop thinking about him overnight. It may take months or longer before she is fully invested back in the marriage. But stopping the contact is the most essential part. For now, that's all you should be focusing on. That and not blowing up, or being whiny or needy. Smell good, look good, help with the kids (but not too much!) and house...be the husband she wants so that when she comes to her senses, she'll realize you've been what she wants all along.


Thank you so much, this is what I need to hear. And yes I think he is 22 years old, or somewhere in there, I'll see what happens I guess, it's all happening so fast, it's hard to keep up, and know what to do next?


----------



## Tanelornpete

> Thank you for the vote of confidence, without everybodies help, so far I don't think we would be this far, and it seems like the peices are coming together, but I am still uncertain of what to do next??!


You've gotten very sound advice so far. She reacted just as expected (people who are having an affair follow a script with almost 100% predictability.)

Expect her to be very angry, and expect unexpected actions, and really weird statements - things that make absolutely no sense.

In all of this stay calm. As has been stated above, a person in an affair is basically an addict. The affair keeps them high, and if you pull the supply - if you stop the drug from coming - they go through some very serious withdrawals. _Keep that in mind!_ When someone goes through a serious withdrawal, they do things, and say things, that are completely horrible to the people taking care of them. Expect your wife to do the same.

And no - don't leave. Ignore her 'crazy talk' and just tell her that you love her and that you are her best friend. Again, it doesn't matter if she rejects this right now - it will still be heard. 

She may leave you for a while. That's her choice - but here's the thing - you've started the process by which the affair has begun to unravel. It is doomed and dying. 

Your wife was getting needs filled from both you _and_ the other man. With the affair ending, all of the sudden she is not getting at least some of what she needs to feel loved. Even if she leaves, that will not improve. In fact, if she does leave, she will also lose a lot of the input from you. Things will just get worse.

She may lose her job. Anything could happen. The important thing right now is your marriage. And that cannot be worked on as long as the 'drug' of the affair is interfering. You are well on your way to recovery. 

Eventually the fog, the dizziness, the drug will wear off. She will begin to see things more clearly. That is why it is really important _right now_ to be the Best Husband in the World. She will all of the sudden realize what she had almost thrown away. So for the time being, you want to concentrate on filling her needs and ceasing to destroy the love you have already. Both of those steps are important:

Build up the fires of love by filling her needs.

End any extinguishing of love by ceasing Love Busters.

That way, when she does begin to see more clearly (can take a couple months!) she will see you standing there. 

Again, see my 'steps' listed above. If she does not cease the affair, or if she attempts to find others to fill the needs that you can fill - then there are other steps to take.

But for now, give her a little time, be loving, gentle and calm - and learn all you can about you, her, and what a healthy marriage is made of. You'll be glad you did!


----------



## showtime

I truly thank everybody so much!!! For the sound advice and open arms! I do feel a little bit better about the situation, and can almost see light at the end of the tunnel. But I know there will be a long road ahead. I'm going to do my best to be there for her, and be the best husband I can, without being overbearing! I will stay calm and collective, and try to be the voice of reason behind our marriage and family.


----------



## turnera

Now might be a good time to do some reflection on what she wants out of life - before this all happened. If you can be the person who helps her achieve those things, she'll see your worth easier. Did she always want to learn photography? Find a course she can take. Did she really want to be a teacher? Talk about a second degree. Does she like to landscape her yard? Get her some new tools. Show her that she CAN have what she wants, with you.

That said, don't go overboard in making her feel like a princess. IMO, that's the number one way to make a woman go wayward, is if they get put up on a pedestal, while you do all the work, because then they lose respect for you. And they have to respect their man. That's why begging her to stop only makes it worse.

The best success I ever saw was a guy who caught his wife cheating in one of their houses (rental, empty). He took pictures of them naked, then took their clothes, walked outside, and threw the clothes in the middle of the street. He told her not to come home unless she was ready to give up the OM. Then he left. She folded completely, that day, and never looked back. He also emailed OM's wife and sent her the pictures. Coincidentally, awhile later, he ran into the OM in a diner with yet another woman; he whipped out his camera, took more pictures of him with this OOW(!), and emailed them to the guy's wife. Who divorced him.

Women who see their husbands become decisive and proactive rarely keep up the affairs. Remember that people usually want to have both spouse and OM/OW in their lives, as they get different needs met by the two people. If she balks and you pull out (kick her out), suddenly the affair won't look so great. She won't want to give up a stable marriage for a 22 year old! It's a fantasy! If she believes you won't go along with it, you have a much better chance of pulling her back in.


----------



## showtime

Thank you turnera!! For your stern advice, that is exactly what I need to get through this. Stern and sound advice!


----------



## Affaircare

turnera said:


> ...They ALL get mad. They ALL threaten divorce or tell YOU to get out. There is a SCRIPT for wayward wives, and she is following it word for word...





tanelornpete said:


> ...(people who are having an affair follow a script with almost 100% predictability.)
> 
> Expect her to be very angry, and expect unexpected actions, and really weird statements - things that make absolutely no sense...


HEY! I'm calling foul :redcard: on behalf of anyone who's ever been a Disloyal Spouse. We do not ALL get mad or ALL follow a script or ALL wander around like we are drugged out. Yes there are some similarities and these reactions she has had would be considered in the realm of "to be expected" but to say that ALL Disloyal Spouses are X, Y or Z is just not cool. 

SOME Disloyal Spouses became disloyal after trying to get the loyal spouse's attention for years. SOME do immediately stop and repent. SOME do not blame and take personal responsibility. SOME even stay, reconcile and recover their marriage. Frankly I'm not exactly thrilled to see people whom I generally admire and respect slipping into the digging on Disloyals because remember, there but for the grace of God go you. Don't fool yourself into thinking "I would never do that" or "it could never happen to me." 

So how about at least some minimal consideration for Disloyals here huh?


----------



## showtime

point taken Affaircare!
Also, my wife is really pushing me to change her cell phone from my plan to her own, so she can have sole responsibility for her own line. She says if I don't she will just get another phone and new number? Any help there, or suggestions?
P.S. She has asked me to change the phone around for a couple weeks now, and I have avoided the subject, but now she is really pushing it!!!??


----------



## Tanelornpete

> ...She has asked me to change the phone around for a couple weeks now, and I have avoided the subject, but now she is really pushing it!!!??


Does she pay for the phone line - or do you? You can't stop her from getting another phone, so I wouldn't be too concerned with that. You cannot micro-manage another person's life. However, I would not pay for it myself - that is a means of enabling by providing a means of hiding the affair - at your expense! If she wants it - let her do it.


----------



## showtime

Tanelornpete said:


> Does she pay for the phone line - or do you? You can't stop her from getting another phone, so I wouldn't be too concerned with that. You cannot micro-manage another person's life. However, I would not pay for it myself - that is a means of enabling by providing a means of hiding the affair - at your expense! If she wants it - let her do it.


The phone/s are under my name, therefor she cant switch her line over to where she can manage it herself, she tried, verizon wouldn't let her without my consent, but we both pay the cell phone bill, whoever has the money at the time it is due, we pay it. And I wouldn't pay for her to get a new phone either. But my fear is she will get a new phone and start the texting process all over again, and I won't know about it!!!


----------



## Tanelornpete

As long as you refuse to fund her affair, you are doing your part. I'd just remind her that in order for your marriage to recover and grow stronger, she'll need to be open with you about who she talks to, who she texts, etc. There's a possibility that she won't be happy with this, but it should happen in order for your marriage to recover.

You cannot force her to stop having an affair. All you can do is keep it in the light so that it is seen for what it probably is. And keep loving her. You have already exposed the affair - exposure quite often takes the wind out of it's sails - many affairs end once they are exposed.

Yes, she could get a new phone and start texting again. That is could be her plan. You can't stop that if that is what she intends. But you can make an environment where the affair could be a lot more difficult to carry on.

Move on to step three of what I listed above - this is called a 'plan A' by some, 'carrot and stick' by others. Concentrate on filling her needs and halting anything that makes her feel unloved. 

Note however, that SOME things you do that are intended to show her love will be TAKEN as hurtful. (The idea of tough love.) For example, refusing to pay for her text services IS an act of love (it is designed to make your marriage a sanctuary for the two of you).

Start preparing yourself for life alone - start getting finances together, etc. You may need to separate from her for the full weight of her actions to sink in. Not yet! Not yet. Just prepare 'in case.'


----------



## showtime

Tanelornpete said:


> As long as you refuse to fund her affair, you are doing your part. I'd just remind her that in order for your marriage to recover and grow stronger, she'll need to be open with you about who she talks to, who she texts, etc. Of course she won't like this - as it the norm, she will get angry with you for wanting to invade her privacy.
> 
> It _must_ happen in order for your marriage to recover.
> 
> You cannot force her to stop having an affair. All you can do is keep it in the light so that it is seen for what it is. And keep loving her. You have already exposed the affair - exposure takes the wind out of it's sails - almost all affairs end once they are exposed.
> 
> Yes, she could get a new phone and start texting again. That is probably her plan. You can't stop that. But you can make an environment where the affair is a lot more difficult to carry on.
> 
> Move on to step three of what I listed above - this is called a 'plan A' by some, 'carrot and stick' by others. Concentrate on filling her needs and halting anything that makes her feel unloved.
> 
> Note however, that SOME things you do that are intended to show her love will be TAKEN as hurtful. (The idea of tough love.) For example, refusing to pay for her text services IS an act of love (it is designed to make your marriage a sanctuary for the two of you).
> 
> Start preparing yourself for life alone - start getting finances together, etc. You may need to separate from her for the full weight of her actions to sink in. Not yet! Not yet. Just prepare 'in case.'


 Ok, thank you!!


----------



## Affaircare

Hey Showtime~

It sounds like you've "chilled out" a little bit now that you have some things to do and have done a few things, so good for you. You're doing a good job!

If you don't mind I wanted to comment on a couple things: the "Carrot and Stick" idea, and a rough idea of what you might expect next--just so you can tell what is "normal" and what to prepare for. 

Here is a quote that may sort of help explain the first phase that I call "Carrot and Stick Phase": 



> Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall squarely upon the heads of the adulterous.... If we experience no consequences when we mess up-there is very little motivation for us to change our wrong behaviors that have become a habit. So do a Disloyal Spouse a favor. DO NOT stand in between them and their consequences. Show respect for your Disloyal Spouse by ALLOWING them to feel whatever their behaviors have earned them, be it...
> shame
> embarrassment
> fear
> whatever they have earned, let it be. Unpleasant consequences are what motivates changing habitual bad behaviors.


Thus your "carrot" part is that you stop Love Extinguishers and increase what Love Kindlers you can--be once again the man that caught her eye in the first place! The "stick" part is not standing in the way of some natural consequences. If she is fired at work, it is not because you brought the truth to light but rather her choices and her behavior that caused that. Make sense? All too often we think we are loving our spouses when they make a bad choice that is painful and costs them, and we "stand in the way" so they aren't hurt by their choice. In reality that's disrespectful--because it's say "I don't think you can handle what happens because of your own choice."

*************

Now for topic number two: some things you may expect this week/weekend. 

You know Tanelorn and I were just discussing today that each Disloyal person is different and has the potential to choose to do the right thing, but there are some things that we've seen happen time and again when the affair is first exposed. So here are some options and ways you can "get ready" :

Just to remind you, bringing the affair to light is like cutting off the druggie from the drug dealer. Actually, physiologically she's been getting a little "high" from feeling wanted...that in-love rush that's actually dopamine which is a brain hormone. But anyway, at first there is GREAT likelihood she'll be mad as a wet hen. Like any addict who's been cut off, she will probably try some tricks to get the connection back "like it used to be" such as threats, screaming, anger/rage, breaking down, acting depressed (maybe even talking suicide), giving you guilt ... that sort of thing. The goal of all these tricks is to get you to sort of feel sorry or insecure and back down--or to get things to return to the way they used to be--or to get you to back off... Do you know what I mean? ANYTHING in order to get that "love zing" back. So expect some of that to be thrown your way. Envision the Exorcist and you are the priest removing the demon..and it's going to throw up on you and try to scare you and stuff. Okay? 

Next, bear in mind that the only person here that you can do anything about is YOU. If she is bound and determined to treat you poorly and pursue this affair, you can not "stop her" or "make her" or "get her to" do anything. SHE would have to want to do it. Right now it's conceivable she is very mad--but she might also be feeling really embarrassed, really guilty for doing what she knew was wrong, and maybe feeling like there is no way to fix this. Right now we can't tell, can we? So let's see what happens and just be patient. 

If she does things like wanting you to move out, just calmly explain that you are married to her and this is your home and you belong here--if she wants to not be in the home and in the marriage she has to be the one who does the leaving. 

If she does things like saying you are dragging her name through the mud, again just calmly explain that no you told the truth rather than cover up a lie, and that her activities are what is making her name muddy--BUT that she has a chance not to stop it and do the right thing and you'd love that!

If she wants to go further underground and get secret phones and such, again just calmly explain that it's cool to have privacy in a marriage (which is when you go to the bathroom and close the door for modesty) but that what she's doing is SECRECY and keeping secrets from the person you vowed to be faithful to is not cool. If she wants to do those things, she has to do all the work and you won't help her and you won't pay for any of it...it's all on her. 

But mainly through all these things that may or may not be flung your way, keep repeating that you get it, you don't blame her, it was a wake up call that things were way wrong, and that you want her back if that's what she chooses.


----------



## turnera

Affaircare, point taken, and I had no intention of disrespecting you, but you have to agree that psychologically speaking, most people in his wife's position will act similarly. Maybe not all, of course. But you know psychology allows us to predict quite a lot. But you're right, not all people will do the same thing.


----------



## turnera

showtime said:


> point taken Affaircare!
> Also, my wife is really pushing me to change her cell phone from my plan to her own, so she can have sole responsibility for her own line. She says if I don't she will just get another phone and new number? Any help there, or suggestions?
> P.S. She has asked me to change the phone around for a couple weeks now, and I have avoided the subject, but now she is really pushing it!!!??


 So...are you ready to find your cajones yet? 

What does it take for you to step up and act like a man - an ANGRY, confident man - and TELL her what you will accept in YOUR marriage?

She will never respect you if you keep caving like this.

Be CALM. Be confident. KNOW that YOU are the wronged person here, and act like it.

If she gets the message - that you will NOT accept such behavior in your marriage - it will start to get under her skin.

Of course, you do have to be the perfect husband in all other aspects BESIDES the affair. Just make it clear she will NOT be able to keep carrying on and remain married.


----------



## showtime

So here's the update, she came home last night, and to my suprise was not kicking and screaming, she was very distraut and quiet. She didn't say much of anything. She asked me what I had said to TOM, and I didn't tell her, but I think she knows exactly what I told him. I don't know if they have still been talking, because there is a 24 hour delay on the cell phone bill, so I can't see what messages are sent until tommorrow. Which makes me think they haven't talked though, beacause she asked what I said to him? IDK? I still feel my heart sink everytime she picks up her phone or takes a call!! But I guess I just gotta deal with that for the time being. She was texting last night, and I calmly asked who. She said it was her friend Sara, and said sarcasticly that "I was gonna have to deal with it, I want to be with her". And I assume this is some of the resenment towards me, and jibberish talk that needs to be ignored as explained above?


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## turnera

Yep. Just ignore it.

Be the bigger person.


----------



## showtime

turnera said:


> So...are you ready to find your cajones yet?
> 
> What does it take for you to step up and act like a man - an ANGRY, confident man - and TELL her what you will accept in YOUR marriage?
> 
> She will never respect you if you keep caving like this.
> 
> Be CALM. Be confident. KNOW that YOU are the wronged person here, and act like it.
> 
> If she gets the message - that you will NOT accept such behavior in your marriage - it will start to get under her skin.
> 
> Of course, you do have to be the perfect husband in all other aspects BESIDES the affair. Just make it clear she will NOT be able to keep carrying on and remain married.


 I know exactly what you are saying here. I feel as though I am walking on very thin ice with her. Because she has threatened divorce in the past, and has been really pushing it, the past few days. So I don't want to push her to far away, to the point of no return. It starts to feel a little bit better and then it doesn't at times. It is so hard to read her and know what to do next. She does know however that I want her to stop all contact, and do it right now! We are a young couple, and she uses the excuse that, marriage shouldn't be this much work. And I tell her we have so many variables to deal with (kids, money, family, work) in "OUR" relationship, that it seems easy talking to this other dude, and them together don't have to deal with the everyday struggles within "OUR" family, because when they talk, me and the kids don't get between them. Where as at home, when me and her try to "talk" we always have interuptions, and it's hard to stay focused on important conversations, with all the interuptions?


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## turnera

So farm out the kids somewhere before you have discussions.

Many many waywards threaten divorce, but few do it. Especially when the OM is 22 and not worth throwing away her family for.

Have you pointed out to her that it seems better to talk to him BECAUSE he is not involved in her day to day necessities? That all she has with him is 'fun' time, but how would he act if he had to raise two kids with her? Typically such discussion do no good, cos all she cares about is her fix, but you never know - this may not have ever occurred to her.

Who knows? Maybe he DID stop contacting her because of you. Maybe that's why she asked what you said to him.


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## showtime

Yeah we do farm out the kids every once and a while, but I was reffering to the everyday conversations, that were less intense conversations but equally important in our overall communication, throughout the day, more as, just talking, which gets interupted all the time from the kids, but we have tried to make time away from the kids, but it is difficult for us, as we don't have a whole lot of friends or realatives that are willing to help, but we do pay a baby sitter when is nessecary. 
But her overall attitude last night was very different than before, I copuld tell she was very sad, for what reasons I don't know. Probably the decreased contact with TOM, but I'd like to think she has remorse for what she has done and doesn't know herself, how to act. But she is still very "standoffish" towards me. And I have been a much better husband in recent light. Doing more tasks around the house, taking charge of situations wqith the kids, and of course trying to look, smell, and be better. I've even starting lifting a few wheights, to eventually be more attractive to her. But she looks at me crazy when I do or say certain things that I want to change about my appearance and overall health, because I wasn't too concerned before. So maybe that creates a little bit of mystery around me that will reel her in a little more?

Oh and YES I have told her that it seems a lot easier for them to talk to each other, because they don't have anything else to deal with or interupt them while there talking/texting. And I told her that wasn't fair to any of us!!


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## archer2005

OK ! I guess I've read enough.
Here's the real deal to most of the guys here who seem to be filled with testosterone..
Whoever gave us the idea that if your spouse gets emotionally hooked to another, it's her fault?
Next, where is the rule in nature that a woman can't love more than one?
In effect, grow up, fellows!
Look within yourself. Correct the things that led her to hookup with the other guy in the first place. 
And then, hope for the best.
If she gets back to you emotionally - good.
If she remains emotionally attached to the other fellow - i guess u just have to live with it, or cop out.
Whoever gave you the right to dictate on her life ?!?!


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## turnera

She did, when she agreed to marry him. She agreed that she would NOT seek out other people aside from him. She broke their contract. He has the right to fight for the resolution of their contract.

If she leaves, she leaves. But he has the right to expect her to remain monagonous while they ARE married.


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## cody5

Hey Archer. You get March 2010's award for the most "way off the mark" post of the month. Man, are YOU ever wrong.


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## turnera

He's right about it having to do with the betrayed spouse, too, in that if the wayward were perfectly happy they'd never look elsewhere (although it was HER choice to cheat). So it behooves any BS to look at themselves if they want their WS back.

I just don't agree that you should just fix yourself and hope she'll wake up and come home. It's a BS's right to fight an affair.


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## Banff

Someone else on here suggested the book "Love Must Be Tough". You really need to read it. I have lived in your shoes, have read a dozen books on this, and IMO its the most spot on. Not all will apply and the point can be made quicker, but his main point is the same as all the advice your getting here. Its not something you should read - you must read it. Its a life saver. Hope things work out for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## showtime

Thank you to everybody who has posted!! 

Me and my wife had a few long discussions, and she admitted she was wrong and has agreed to stop all contact. It's gonna be real hard for me to trust her, but that's all I can do at this point. I am going to do my best to be there for her, and fulfill her needs, and support her. I can tell she is heart broken over the whole deal, and doesn't want to talk about it anymore. I will keep posting the progress we are making from time to time!

Once again thank you to everybody that posted!! I couldn't have got this far without you!!! I took everybodies advice to heart, and put it into place!


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## Tanelornpete

Awesome news! Here's to all hope and a wonderful recovery. There's a lot of work to do if you are both ready and willing to start on your marriage - work for both of you. 

Whatever you do (word of advice) - don't try to go back to 'the way it was' - the way it was is what got you here in the first place. You have a chance at a good, new start - take advantage of it.


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## Affaircare

showtime said:


> Thank you to everybody who has posted!!
> 
> Me and my wife had a few long discussions, and she admitted she was wrong and has agreed to stop all contact. It's gonna be real hard for me to trust her, but that's all I can do at this point.


Showtime I am tickled pink for you. I do want to make a note of something for ya--when you say "...that's all I can do at this point..." that's not entirely true. Speaking from the point of view of a Disloyal Spouse, it will feel a little like being watched and all, but one thing she can do (and you can do) to promote rebuilding trust is if she were to let you have access to all of her accounts and passwords. Ask for all the email accounts she used to carry on the affair--ask her to delete them and have one main account--ask her to close any extra facebook pages or twitter pages or journals or whatever and watch her do it. Yep it definitely feels a little embarrassing and like a child but that's part of the price of having crossed the line. This way she can DEMONSTRATE she's being honest and you can feel reassured that she is being honest. So there is more that can be done to rebuild trust other than "just trusting her." Let her demonstrate it with her actions. Ask for access to the places she used to go for the affair.



> I am going to do my best to be there for her, and fulfill her needs, and support her. I can tell she is heart broken over the whole deal, and doesn't want to talk about it anymore. I will keep posting the progress we are making from time to time!


One thing my Dear Hubby did that was GREAT was that we did some fun things together. Not "relationship" things--just once again we did some things that we both liked to do. For example, we both like old muscle cars so we went to a car show. The reason this was great was that it associated something positive, enjoyable, and happy with "him" (so that Dear Hubby=good). Honestly that was one thing we had gradually lost--just having fun and being friends together. So that might be one idea you may benefit from: rather than being all romantic and crazy affectionate, try just liking her and doing a few fun things like back in the day when you two liked each other. 



> Once again thank you to everybody that posted!! I couldn't have got this far without you!!! I took everybodies advice to heart, and put it into place!


Can't tell ya how glad I am to hear this!


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## showtime

Well, I had a conversation with her about TOM's mutual friends with her on facebook (sister, mom,ect.) And I actually went in and deleted them out of her facebook, instead of asking her to do it. I know I made a mistake there! But I asked her to take some initiative, and do some of these things herself, to help us move forward. She said she didn't even think about it. (which I do beleive?) Then I brought up the conversation where, we might have to see wether the doctors office values her as a nurse or him as a patient more? She was libid! And said "If you get me fired" she was gonna take the kids and move back to where her mom lives!! (another state!) I explained to her that she was gonna get herself fired, not me!! But it feels like we just took a huge step backwards. I don't want to keep bringing these things up. We had a really good day yesterday (and evening), but this morning I kept thinking that she should have taken these steps, like with her facebook page, and I realize I made the mistake of doing it myself, but I don't want to push her away. She has taken a huge step and not talking or texting TOM, and I am so thankful for that. But now I feel bad because she was doing really good at taking these steps, and I went about things today the wrong way!!!! (kicking myself!) ???


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## turnera

Calm down. Waywards (nearly) always threaten all kinds of things, but rarely follow through. It's only been one day. Just step back and observe. And make sure you give her a reason to stay.

fwiw, she can't just up and take your kids away, especially over state lines. Like we said, don't listen to her right now. She's still fogged over and likely in withdrawal now from not contacting him, so she's going to be testy no matter what.

So calm down, slow down, and just observe. At least you realize you shouldn't be forcing her to do things, it has to come from her initiative. But that may be slow in coming. Just be patient.

fwiw, she needs to see that you won't put up with it, in fact I think she needs to see you mad. You're doing fine.


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## showtime

turnera said:


> Calm down. Waywards (nearly) always threaten all kinds of things, but rarely follow through. It's only been one day. Just step back and observe. And make sure you give her a reason to stay.
> 
> fwiw, she can't just up and take your kids away, especially over state lines. Like we said, don't listen to her right now. She's still fogged over and likely in withdrawal now from not contacting him, so she's going to be testy no matter what.
> 
> So calm down, slow down, and just observe. At least you realize you shouldn't be forcing her to do things, it has to come from her initiative. But that may be slow in coming. Just be patient.
> 
> fwiw, she needs to see that you won't put up with it, in fact I think she needs to see you mad. You're doing fine.


 Yeah I did get mad. That's when we had the most important conversation about her stopping all contact, and she agreed. I put my foot down and said enough was enough!! So I understand what your saying about calming down, and letting things run their course.


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## Tanelornpete

Regarding the Facebook deletions - you are right, she probably should have done it, and the means to approach that would have been to let her know that it was painful for you to have her in contact with those people. My guess is that if she is as willing to work on the marriage as it seems, that she probably would have done it. 

But it's past - water under the bridge. She does not appear to be particularly angry about it - so just think of it as a learning opportunity - next time you can talk it over with her. 

Regarding the 'No Contact' with the other man, approach it with more patience. It's possible that the Other Man could find another practice, true - and it's much more likely that they would fire her rather than get rid of a customer. It may be possible that she could simply request that someone else be assigned to any duties regarding him. Not sure how the office works.

In any event, you will have to explain the reason why No Contact is so valuable to your marriage. This is a good article that explains it reasonably well (yes, I am shamelessly plugging my own articles.. but hey - I'm vain...)

When she has calmed down, sit down, apologize for upsetting her, and then attempt to calmly explain why you would like her to take this seriously. Keep in mind that she may feel quite trapped - wanting to keep her job and her marriage. It may come down to a question of 'which is more important?' 

It was, after all, her choice to involved herself in infidelity that brought about this entire situation. She may have to bite the bullet.


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## showtime

I have a little update for everyone. After we had our big argument over the facebook deal, she went to work mad. She called her mom from work, and her mom gave her some good insight and advice. And to my suprise wasn't as upset when she got home that day. I apologized for going about things the wrong way. and we are a little better now. Last night we put the kids to bed early enough to watch a movie together (Blind Side). I felt like we both really enjoyed each others company and it was a good, happy evening. So we shut everything down after the movie and went to bed. And while we were in bed, she was kind of tossing and turning just a little bit. So I thought to myself "it seems like she still wants to talk to me", I didn't say anything, I just waited patiently. Sure enough a few minutes later she turned to me and we started talking again. Not about anything important or significant, just plain old conversation. which made me feel really good that she still wanted to talk to me. And I could sense she wanted to have me there!! So for now it feels like things are getting better and she is generally happy. But I know we still have a lot of work ahead of us. I still feel hurt inside, and still have a sense of nervousness about what she is doing while she is at work, and if she is going to be and do what she says she's doing? But I take a few deep breaths and try to calm down, and be strong for "our" sake.


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## Affaircare

Good job Showtime! 

First, I'm glad to hear this update. It sounds like there is a light at the end of the tunnel...which WHEW isn't that a relief!?

Second, good for you doing something a little fun with her (watching the movie) and then patiently taking the time to talk. I will bet you MONEY that she very much so missed just hanging with you and talking like friends. It may not seem like much of a "love kindler" but for folks who love to talk, conversation can be a BIG log on the fire. So for fun, you may want to look at some articles like "How to have great conversation skills" Just so you know, my Dear Hubby and I lay in bed and talk every night for 30 minutes to an hour, and not "pillow talk" but about the day, politics or news, our family, something that made us laugh, etc. And yep, while you're talking, some light hugging and touching without leading to sex can be great too! There you might be adding a kindler for affection (hugs and caresses). 

So GOOD JOB!!! :smthumbup:


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## showtime

Affaircare said:


> Good job Showtime!
> 
> First, I'm glad to hear this update. It sounds like there is a light at the end of the tunnel...which WHEW isn't that a relief!?
> So GOOD JOB!!! :smthumbup:


YES!! it is a massive relief!!! I do feel a million times better about our situation. I did give her a nice little foot massage after she got home from work yesterday, as she said she had a headache all day. Just a few short days ago, I couldn't even get a hug. But I think that was because she felt some resentment towards me for "bursting her bubble" so to speak.

So Thank You Affaircare for your words of encouragement, and happiness for me!!!


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## Amplexor

It is a good thing indeed that you can spend time together enjoying each other's company. I will caution you that while you are in this highly stressed state everything she does is magnified, good and bad. During our toughest days I many times thought I saw little improvements or set back when in reality they were just the everyday ebb and flow of life. Use this little victory to build your confidence around her. While I hope the two of you a speedy recovery be prepared for some setbacks along the way. Any of us here who have gone through this can relate to the emotional roller coaster that comes along with recovery. It can take time, good luck.


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## showtime

I know what you mean about the emotional rollercoaster!!! Sometimes I feel really good and the next minute I'm upset. It seems like she is doing just fine. She is generally happy and in a good mood when we are together. 

I can't understand why she doesn't show any other emotions. It's like she has no compasion for my hurt feelings? And that in turn makes me feel down? I try to be strong and confident. But when she acts like everything is good, it makes me wonder what is going on? Maybe this is just her way of dealing with everything, and it is better, and she is ready to move on. And I'm the one that is dwelling on it.


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## Amplexor

showtime said:


> I can't understand why she doesn't show any other emotions. It's like she has no compasion for my hurt feelings?


Very simple, her heart has turned cold for you. It may be a result of the EA or the EA may have been a result of her loss of an emotional bond to you. Even though she has ended contact doesn't mean she isn't still bonded to him. That will take time, she is grieving him not you at this point. That is normal and necessary. It is part of the process. Work on that confidence, it will be important to her that you are in this for the long haul.


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## showtime

OK Amp thanks!! From what I can tell, the EA has only been going on for a month total. So I do expect her to grieve and be down about it ending. When she deleted him from her facebook she started to tear up a little. It hurt my feelings bad when she did that, but I stayed strong for our sake. I have heard it can take a month for every year of a realationship to recover. So maybe it will only take her a couple weeks to be back in the game?? I am the ultimate optimist here!!


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## turnera

That really depends on whether YOU now are providing the needs she was getting met by him. Are you? Do you even know what they are, her needs?


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## showtime

turnera said:


> That really depends on whether YOU now are providing the needs she was getting met by him. Are you? Do you even know what they are, her needs?


Yeah turnera, we had a long talk the other night about what was lacking in our marriage and why she had strayed. 

She would come home from a long day at work, and just want to talk about it. I wasn't very receptive, and I would tune her out. I know now that I was taking her for granted. 

So now I am going to be more attentive, and focus more on our relationship and each others needs. I know what needs to be done. The hardest part is moving forward and regaining that trust. But I know that will take time.


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## blueyes

the last advice is right for u to take, I know I was your wife, but I told my husband because I was done with us. I didn't quit seeing my frien right away either. until my husband kept showing up at my friends place of business and talked to him, yelded at me.this happened 3 or 4 times and told me to get out, everything. My friend now I haven't seen him in 2 months, its upsetting it hurts, but my husband has changed and we r working tings out. So do what it takes. get her mad, I got mad bu I'm still her and workin things out. She has to know u think she's worth fighting for. Good luck. MAKE THINGS DIFFICULT FOR THEM. CUT OFF THE PHONE


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## showtime

Well I just don't know where we are at right now? She seems normal when we are together. But I know her heart is elswhere. She said she hasn't talked to or contacted TOM. I don't know if I beleive her or not? She might have a secret email, or talk to him while she is at work, I don't know for sure. I'd like to think she isn't. All of this is really tugging on my heart though. I feel like she is so distant, and couldn't care less if I told her I'm outta here? A few days ago she did say that the only reason she was "trying" to work this out was for our kids, and she didn't want to split up our stuff? I don't know if this is the jibberish everybody was talking about? She also acts like she has no remorse for anything that's happened. And I always feel like she has the upper hand. But at the same time, she is here and she comes home everynight, and I feel like we do enjoy eachothers company when we are together?? I'm just so lost in all of this, and I feel like she is trying to push me out!! I don't really have anyone else to talk to about this, I have very little family around, and I'm just not comfortable tlking to them about this, because they have never gave me good advice without judging first. My wife though has me and her mom to talk to at any givin' time. So I just feel real down at times and impatient maybe??! Maybe all of this is normal and I just need to relax and slow down??


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## turnera

showtime, withdrawal can take months, not days. You need to be patient. If she's still acting the same by the end of summer, THEN I'd be worried.

What have you changed? What are you now doing to meet her needs and not Love Bust? Did you do the questionnaires? You need to know better intel, to be able to BE that person who she looks forward to seeing. If you are making her so happy that she wouldn't even consider looking elsewhere, she will change to be who you want. But this requires work on your part. 

If I were you, I'd be focusing on that nonstop for the next month or two - but NOT in a clingy, whiny, please-don't-leave-me way!

She does NOT have the upper hand. YOU have the right to leave her any time you get mad enough at what she has done. Indignant enough. Believe me, I've seen hundreds of cases like yours, and the husband who acts like he can't live without his wife, who fears every day that she'll leave...THAT wife grows to hate her husband, no matter how many needs he's meeting. It's the husband who quickly and CONFIDENTLY says 'you know what? I WANT to stay married to you, but I'm not sure you're worth it at this point. I'll have to wait and see' - THAT guy gets his wife's attention.

She has wronged YOU. NOT the other way around. You need to wrap your head around that.

Are you going to die if she leaves tomorrow? No. You may grieve for a while, but you'd eventually pick yourself up and move on and find a woman who WILL treat you like a king and be grateful to have you. Those women ARE out there. And if your wife doesn't come around, stays wrapped up in her self-centered world...well, maybe it's in your best interest (and the kids') to move on.


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## showtime

turnera said:


> showtime, withdrawal can take months, not days. You need to be patient. If she's still acting the same by the end of summer, THEN I'd be worried.
> 
> What have you changed? What are you now doing to meet her needs and not Love Bust? Did you do the questionnaires? You need to know better intel, to be able to BE that person who she looks forward to seeing. If you are making her so happy that she wouldn't even consider looking elsewhere, she will change to be who you want. But this requires work on your part.
> 
> If I were you, I'd be focusing on that nonstop for the next month or two - but NOT in a clingy, whiny, please-don't-leave-me way!
> 
> She does NOT have the upper hand. YOU have the right to leave her any time you get mad enough at what she has done. Indignant enough. Believe me, I've seen hundreds of cases like yours, and the husband who acts like he can't live without his wife, who fears every day that she'll leave...THAT wife grows to hate her husband, no matter how many needs he's meeting. It's the husband who quickly and CONFIDENTLY says 'you know what? I WANT to stay married to you, but I'm not sure you're worth it at this point. I'll have to wait and see' - THAT guy gets his wife's attention.
> 
> She has wronged YOU. NOT the other way around. You need to wrap your head around that.
> 
> Are you going to die if she leaves tomorrow? No. You may grieve for a while, but you'd eventually pick yourself up and move on and find a woman who WILL treat you like a king and be grateful to have you. Those women ARE out there. And if your wife doesn't come around, stays wrapped up in her self-centered world...well, maybe it's in your best interest (and the kids') to move on.


 I understand everything you are saying turnera! I have tried to be strong and confident around her. I have worked very hard on fulfilling her needs, but it just seems like she isn't receptive to the stuff I am doing, and she acts like she doesn't even care. Maybe inside she does notice these things I've been doing to push forward and never be like it was?? But she just doesn't show any emotion or any hint that she notices what I am doing?? Maybe she does and thats why she is still coming home every night?? And continues to be here, even though she acts like she doesn't care??


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## turnera

Think of it this way. If you got caught doing something wrong, and you had to live with someone who knew you did it, would you want to be acting like you're all embarrassed or ashamed around that person? Or would it be more comfortable to just pretend it didn't happen? It's human nature to try to bury things we've done.

Plus, she has two guys on her mind. Each gives her something, even if she has chosen for now not to be with one of them. So, no matter what you are doing for her, for NOW, she still remembers the good feelings she got from him. That will take a long time to go away. My mother died 2 1/2 months ago and I still tear up each time I think about her - but not as much as 2 months ago; and I don't think of her every single day now like I did 2 months ago. Your thought processes come unbidden - you don't choose to think or not think, you just do. Our brain hardwires 'good' and 'powerful' feelings to become reinforced, so they come more easily to the front. Over time, that connection to OM will lose its strength, as she thinks about him less. _But it takes time._ Like I said, if you're not getting what you need from her by the end of the summer, THEN I'd be worried.


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## showtime

Ok thanks turnera, I gotcha. I printed out the love busters and emotional needs questionares, but she thinks their dumb and don't pertain to us? She wants me to look over the divorce papers. I just feel like I am alone in making this better for the both of us. And she is holding something against me. And that is what is driving her to push me out?? And if I get fed up and leave then I feel like she wins, and gets what she thinks she wants??!!


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## Tanelornpete

Showtime - do the questionnaires yourself, pretend you are her, try to answer as you think she might. Don't worry that she doesn't want to do them. Then work on what you believe she needs most. If she has quit her affair, over time she will become more interested - especially if you have steadily been working on filling some of those needs.

I do have a point to make though:

You wrote ..."...And if I get fed up and leave then I feel like she wins, and gets what she thinks she wants??!! ..."

This isn't a contest! If you approach this as though you are the winner if you stay together, most likely you are not really filling some of her needs - you are only filling yours. And that will lead to trouble in the future! Is it possible she sees this as just that - a contest you have set up for her? One where if you stays she loses, and if you leave, you lose? Be very careful about approaching it that way!

Regardless, don't go over any divorce papers unless you are actually served them - in which case, go over them very carefully. Let her do _all_ of the filling out, filing, etc. Have no part in destroying your marriage. 


----------------
Now playing: The Electronic Hole - The Golden Hour Part I
via FoxyTunes


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## Affaircare

"...she wants me to look at the divorce papers...." ?? What divorce papers? Did I miss something? I didn't realize that divorce was a topic that had been brought up by you or her, much less that there were papers either filled out or blanks or whatever. 

Maybe this is just me, but I don't see any beneficial thing coming from looking at divorce papers when the goal is supposed to be "to work it out." 

(shrug) Can you fill us in?


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## showtime

Affaircare said:


> "...she wants me to look at the divorce papers...." ?? What divorce papers? Did I miss something? I didn't realize that divorce was a topic that had been brought up by you or her, much less that there were papers either filled out or blanks or whatever.
> 
> Maybe this is just me, but I don't see any beneficial thing coming from looking at divorce papers when the goal is supposed to be "to work it out."
> 
> (shrug) Can you fill us in?


Yeah, I apologize if I left that out. When I called her out over this whole deal, she was still stuck in the fog with TOM. So she went down and got divorce papers. Mainly because she was pissed at me for asking her to stop contact. So whenever we have a set back. She brings up the "papers". But whenever she does bring up the papers, she is upset. She never brings them up when we have normal time and conversation. So that makes me think she is trying to threaten me with the papers. Again, when everything is calm and fine, so to speak, she never brings them up?? I don't exactly know what it means when she brings them up, but I feel like she is not really serious, or else she would bring them up when she isn't upset, and have a serious talk about them??


----------



## showtime

Tanelornpete said:


> Showtime - do the questionnaires yourself, pretend you are her, try to answer as you think she might. Don't worry that she doesn't want to do them. Then work on what you believe she needs most. If she has quit her affair, over time she will become more interested - especially if you have steadily been working on filling some of those needs.
> 
> I do have a point to make though:
> 
> You wrote ..."...And if I get fed up and leave then I feel like she wins, and gets what she thinks she wants??!! ..."
> 
> This isn't a contest! If you approach this as though you are the winner if you stay together, most likely you are not really filling some of her needs - you are only filling yours. And that will lead to trouble in the future! Is it possible she sees this as just that - a contest you have set up for her? One where if you stays she loses, and if you leave, you lose? Be very careful about approaching it that way!
> 
> Regardless, don't go over any divorce papers unless you are actually served them - in which case, go over them very carefully. Let her do _all_ of the filling out, filing, etc. Have no part in destroying your marriage.
> 
> 
> ----------------
> Now playing: The Electronic Hole - The Golden Hour Part I
> via FoxyTunes


 And no, I don't feel like this is a contest, though it does feel like a mind game we are trying to play with each other?? I know she says things she doesn't really mean to try and get me upset, and that will give her the mind state to justify her actions in pushing me out the door, so to speak? But I try real hard not to fall into that. And be the bigger person. I do feel deep down she wants to work this out, for everybody involved (Me, and the kids). If she didn't want to work it out, she wouldn't have agreed to stop all contact with TOM? Am I right or am I wrong? I try to tell myself that everyday, that if she deep down really didn't want to work this out, and be together, she would have put up more of a fight?


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## Tanelornpete

> And no, I don't feel like this is a contest, though it does feel like a mind game we are trying to play with each other??


Take _NO_ part in any mind games - be absolutely honest and open at all times. It sounds to me like this may be an old pattern between you two (am I close?) - one of the things that you'll need to ditch in order to build a better relationship.



> I know she says things she doesn't really mean to try and get me upset, and that will give her the mind state to justify her actions in pushing me out the door, so to speak? But I try real hard not to fall into that. And be the bigger person.


One thing that might help you get past this part is realize that she is still feeling some of the dizziness of the affair. That makes it hard to correctly work through every issue - she still has feelings for the Other Guy - and more importantly, she is uncertain as to whether you are really going to be there for her. She is worried that this may all be a temporary lull before things return to the way they were - and this time, the Other Guy won't be there to provide anything she felt was missing. It might also help to realize that she is not trying to upset you in order to push you away. She has deep feelings for you that are slowly returning to the surface. She's saying things 'out of the fog'. Let them pass, and stay focused on the marriage.

because....



> I do feel deep down she wants to work this out, for everybody involved (Me, and the kids). If she didn't want to work it out, she wouldn't have agreed to stop all contact with TOM? Am I right or am I wrong? I try to tell myself that everyday, that if she deep down really didn't want to work this out, and be together, she would have put up more of a fight?



You are right. You are both on the right track. Just stay focused.

----------------
Now playing: Dan Fogelberg - The Last To Know
via FoxyTunes


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## Affaircare

showtime said:


> Yeah, I apologize if I left that out. When I called her out over this whole deal, she was still stuck in the fog with TOM. So she went down and got divorce papers. Mainly because she was pissed at me for asking her to stop contact. So whenever we have a set back. She brings up the "papers". But whenever she does bring up the papers, she is upset. She never brings them up when we have normal time and conversation. So that makes me think she is trying to threaten me with the papers. Again, when everything is calm and fine, so to speak, she never brings them up?? I don't exactly know what it means when she brings them up, but I feel like she is not really serious, or else she would bring them up when she isn't upset, and have a serious talk about them??


Well showtime, one quick note here. People who are "feelers" don't necessarily sit down calmly and discuss divorce papers and how to tear their own life apart. A "thinker" person might do that and analyze the most advantageous way for all parties to agree--but "feelers" would do it when they are all worked up and want to do it in such a way as to hurt the other party, not be agreeable. 

My guess here is that she does about 75% of the time want to work things out but when you hurt her or upset her, she brings up the divorce papers to hurt you back. It's like her way of saying, "I can still hurt you, ya know. I was ready to leave." It may make her feel like she has some power in the marriage...and you don't want her to feel powerless, cuz who'd want a relationship like that. 

I can only mention my own experience maybe to help you get an "idea" of what it's like. On my side I'd say about the first two weeks I actually felt depressed, cried, my heart hurt and yep I missed TOM. In a way to me it felt like that zombie living you do after someone you love died but you know you have to still carry on with life--sort of hollow and empty. Each day it got better though, and I purposely made the effort to train my head that when a thought did pop into my head, to distract myself with something else -or- try to think of something good about Dear Hubby. 

Next I'd say it was a couple months or so really *liking* Dear Hubby, getting along great, enjoying him and TOM fading away. It was like gradually letting my guard down and liking him more and more and more... Once I got beyond just enjoying him it did gradually grow into love too, just by keeping at it. We did the Love Kindlers and Emotional Needs Quizzes right away (and Love Busters Quiz) though and that I can tell we both kept at it. It would probably go a lot better for both of you if she'd consider doing the quizzes only because she can tell you (rather than you guessing) and you can tell her. That mutuality is pretty important.


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## showtime

Tanelornpete said:


> Take _NO_ part in any mind games - be absolutely honest and open at all times. It sounds to me like this may be an old pattern between you two (am I close?) - one of the things that you'll need to ditch in order to build a better relationship.
> 
> I know she says things she doesn't really mean to try and get me upset, and that will give her the mind state to justify her actions in pushing me out the door, so to speak? But I try real hard not to fall into that. And be the bigger person.
> 
> One thing that might help you get past this part is realize that she is still feeling some of the dizziness of the affair. That makes it hard to correctly work through every issue - she still has feelings for the Other Guy - and more importantly, she is uncertain as to whether you are really going to be there for her. She is worried that this may all be a temporary lull before things return to the way they were - and this time, the Other Guy won't be there to provide anything she felt was missing. It might also help to realize that she is not trying to upset you in order to push you away. She has deep feelings for you that are slowly returning to the surface. She's saying things 'out of the fog'. Let them pass, and stay focused on the marriage.
> 
> because....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are right. You are both on the right track. Just stay focused.
> 
> ----------------
> Now playing: Dan Fogelberg - The Last To Know
> via FoxyTunes


 :smthumbup: TY!!!


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## showtime

Affaircare said:


> Well showtime, one quick note here. People who are "feelers" don't necessarily sit down calmly and discuss divorce papers and how to tear their own life apart. A "thinker" person might do that and analyze the most advantageous way for all parties to agree--but "feelers" would do it when they are all worked up and want to do it in such a way as to hurt the other party, not be agreeable.
> 
> My guess here is that she does about 75% of the time want to work things out but when you hurt her or upset her, she brings up the divorce papers to hurt you back. It's like her way of saying, "I can still hurt you, ya know. I was ready to leave." It may make her feel like she has some power in the marriage...and you don't want her to feel powerless, cuz who'd want a relationship like that.
> 
> I can only mention my own experience maybe to help you get an "idea" of what it's like. On my side I'd say about the first two weeks I actually felt depressed, cried, my heart hurt and yep I missed TOM. In a way to me it felt like that zombie living you do after someone you love died but you know you have to still carry on with life--sort of hollow and empty. Each day it got better though, and I purposely made the effort to train my head that when a thought did pop into my head, to distract myself with something else -or- try to think of something good about Dear Hubby.
> 
> Next I'd say it was a couple months or so really *liking* Dear Hubby, getting along great, enjoying him and TOM fading away. It was like gradually letting my guard down and liking him more and more and more... Once I got beyond just enjoying him it did gradually grow into love too, just by keeping at it. We did the Love Kindlers and Emotional Needs Quizzes right away (and Love Busters Quiz) though and that I can tell we both kept at it. It would probably go a lot better for both of you if she'd consider doing the quizzes only because she can tell you (rather than you guessing) and you can tell her. That mutuality is pretty important.


 Ok, I think she was a little upset with me this morning, for whatever reason, nothing in particular, just her way of dealing, so when I brought up the questionaires she shot them down right away, but I had merely suggested they might help. So I don't think she is totaly against them, I just have to ask her again, and try to make it fun for us. I think that would be the best aproach.


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## turnera

> I printed out the love busters and emotional needs questionares, but she thinks their dumb and don't pertain to us? She wants me to look over the divorce papers.


So - lovingly and calmly - call her bluff.

Say "Yeah, I can do that. Why don't we sit down and do it all at one time? We'll both fill out the LB and EN questionnaires, and then we'll go over the divorce papers you drew up when you wanted to leave, and we'll discuss what exactly that would look like."

I'm pretty sure that if you said ok, let's look at them she'd either (1) stop using that as bait or (2) realize that divorce really wouldn't look all that appealing. Not if you sit down and discuss what life would look like - two sets of utilities bills, two sets of savings accounts, two mortgages, two sets of taxes, higher income tax, day care since you won't be there to help each other out...lots of reasons to stay married. 

Plus, agreeing to look at them is you listening to her, not fighting her.


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## showtime

turnera said:


> So - lovingly and calmly - call her bluff.
> 
> Say "Yeah, I can do that. Why don't we sit down and do it all at one time? We'll both fill out the LB and EN questionnaires, and then we'll go over the divorce papers you drew up when you wanted to leave, and we'll discuss what exactly that would look like."
> 
> I'm pretty sure that if you said ok, let's look at them she'd either (1) stop using that as bait or (2) realize that divorce really wouldn't look all that appealing. Not if you sit down and discuss what life would look like - two sets of utilities bills, two sets of savings accounts, two mortgages, two sets of taxes, higher income tax, day care since you won't be there to help each other out...lots of reasons to stay married.
> 
> Plus, agreeing to look at them is you listening to her, not fighting her.


You know turnera, when I first read your post, I thought you were crazy!!! But I read it again, and it does make a lot of sense.

You have a very strong voice of reason, I don't know where I would be if you hadn't posted in my thread this whole time. Thank you!!


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## Affaircare

Wowee, Tunera! I'm not worthy! :allhail:


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## showtime

Affaircare said:


> Wowee, Tunera! I'm not worthy! :allhail:


Don't kid yourself Affaircare, you know I wouldn't be where I'm at today without your advice either!!! :smthumbup:

And everybody else for that matter!!!

Thank you all very much for posting, and guiding me through all of this, I could NOT have done this without you!!!


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## showtime

Well, I don't know if this is one of those setbacks or what? We talked for a real long time last night. We discussed a lot of things that had been going on in our marriage. She said she has been upset with me from our first year together. Back then we barely knew eachother, and she got pregnant. I was real scared back then, but I was there. But some of the things I was doing she has been upset about for years I guess? I was working a lot back then, and wasn't around a whole lot, even though I was home every evening. Anyway, we talked about the divorce papers, and she wants to spend some time apart. I kind of agreed with her, and she said she felt better, and that I was listening to her. She still claims she has no contact with TOM. The phone records back that up, but she could have a secret email or something, I don't know. Regardless she says she's had no contact at all. 

I don't like the idea of spending time apart, but maybe it's for the best?


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## turnera

No, not if you're trying to save your marriage.

If she wants to separate, let HER separate - on HER dime. 

You don't have to help her destroy the marriage.

That said, my daughter is 19 and I STILL resent my H for not helping me more with her when she was a baby. Of course, half of that is my fault for not saying so. But yeah, you can hold onto resentments for a long time.


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## showtime

turnera said:


> No, not if you're trying to save your marriage.
> 
> If she wants to separate, let HER separate - on HER dime.
> 
> You don't have to help her destroy the marriage.
> 
> That said, my daughter is 19 and I STILL resent my H for not helping me more with her when she was a baby. Of course, half of that is my fault for not saying so. But yeah, you can hold onto resentments for a long time.


I dont know for sure what you mean. But she justs wants to spend some time apart, not do it legally, just take a little vacation or something. I don't know if I like the idea, but she says she cant be 100 percent into rebuilding the marriage. She says she just doesn't know if its gonna work???? I think we need to try harder, but she says she just isn't into it??


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## turnera

showtime, that's just what people who cheat do. They stop caring about their spouse. They rewrite history to convince themselves that their marriage is a sham, so they can deal with the guilt of cheating. Sure, she may really resent things; but she is actively LOOKING for things to resent about you because she's still in the fog.

It's the betrayed spouse's job to IGNORE all the rambling and focus on fixing the marriage, despite what the wayward spouse says. This could take months; I've seen it take a couple years before the wayward comes clear from the fog and realizes that you've been there, all along, waiting for them to recover. 

But that'll never happen if you decide you have to be 'nice' to her and give her whatever she wants so that she'll like you. It doesn't work that way. The nicer you try to be, the more she loses respect for you and wants to walk all over you, even leave you.

The only solution is for YOU to state YOUR boundaries on what a marriage needs to be for you. And to tell her that if she cannot be part of that scenario then you have no marriage. Calling her bluff? Maybe. But it is also standing up to her manipulation of this sham of a marriage. You don't stay married to someone and give them whatever they want, just so they won't leave you. That's not a marriage; it's desperation. 

If she can't return your love, then...she doesn't love you. But you won't convince her to love you by giving in to her requests for freedom and alone time. All you can do is state what YOU need in a marriage and see if she agrees.


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## Tanelornpete

Like Turnera says, if she wants time apart, let it be completely on her own dime. Take no part in helping her - don't finance a 'vacation,' don't provide a phone, etc. 

When I first wrote to you, I gave you a list of steps to follow that are designed to help end and affair and move a marriage back into recovery (and beyond - into something better than it was.) Here's what step you should be on right now:

*The third step:* This involves what you've already begun. For the time being you will have to live with your spouse being unfaithful, and hurting you every day. In this step you will continue to be the person your spouse fell in love with - and grow to be more than that - someone they desire.

HOWEVER! This step must be temporary. No one can continue to be hurt by the careless actions of their spouse indefinitely. At some point you will lose all love for your partner altogether - something you don't want to do. Perhaps set yourself six months or so. Stick by that limit.

There are two reasons for this step: one reason is that you will leave a lasting impression on your spouse about the person they were harming. The other reason is that you can face the next step with grace - knowing that you did all you really could.

It is quite possible during this step that your spouse will begin to fall in love with you again. That's the whole purpose of this step - to rekindle the love you once had, an to build on that.

If, however, your spouse continues in the affair, and the end of your preset time allotment comes - your must move to the next step...​
This means that right now, all you should be doing is trying to fill genuine, valid needs and stop anything that may be damaging your relationship. Only you (and she) truly know what the troubles are, so it's up to you to work on it. 

Also, remember that this step has a _time limit_. Beyond that limit you will have to move to the next step. 

Set boundaries around yourself - things you won't do. The concept is not an easy one to grasp - boundaries are not limits you set on other people - they are not a means of control. They are meant to protect you. 

Your focus should be on the marriage. It might help to look at the marriage as though you were a doctor and the marriage a sick patient. Not your wife - _the marriage_. There are things it needs to regain its strength and health. The affair, and your wife's current behavior - are _symptoms_ of the sickness (not the cause.) Hence, you need to be working on curing the illness rather than alleviating the symptoms. One of the symptoms is the 'rewriting' of history that your wife may be doing. 

Ignore the symptoms, other than as indicators of where you are in the curing process - work on the solution instead. And, as Turnera points out: "...You don't stay married to someone and give them whatever they want, just so they won't leave you. That's not a marriage; it's desperation..." 

If your wife does decide to take off for 'freedom' - make sure that she experiences ALL of that 'freedom' - she will get no support, and no approval from you. She will be doing it in a way that is harmful to the marriage (like trying to run on a broken leg...) 

And in the meantime, you will be home, working on becoming a more reliable, stronger, better man - someone that is worth marrying.

----------------
Now playing: Disturbed - Prayer
via FoxyTunes


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## showtime

Thanks, That is what my gut is telling me. To be here and stand my ground. This is a very hard step for me, because I question everything she does. Is she really going to be at work when she says she is, things like that, and if there is any hint of a gap in between, my mind starts going a mile a minute, and I feel the need to see for myself. I suspect something else is going on, and that she isn't telling me the whole story, but this could be the magnifying, everybody was talking about before. The bad things that maybe aren't really so bad, are magnified? I just don't know whats going on anymore. We have good days where we talk like everything is somewhat normal, and then other days it seems like it's all over. But then the next day it's back up again. It is so hard to deal with all these emotions, so high and so low, all at once. And I feel like I am alone on the mountain, reaching for help from her that's no even there. 

But I know what your saying about standing my ground. It all hurts so much. I can't even focus at work when I get these suspicions. And I want to confront her about every detail of her day, but I know that's not the way to go about things. But also this feelings in me build up, and then I need to get it all out at once. I can't find a happy medium with her, or a common ground for issues or discussions??!!


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## turnera

Well, personally, if my spouse had had an EA and I had decided to stick around, I'd be using every means of snooping I could muster. Including hiring a PI.

Because if they told me they had stopped, and I found out otherwise, I'd be out of there so quick you wouldn't see me leave. Whether I loved them or not. I will NOT live my life in fear of whether they're lying or not, and I will NOT live with a liar. I don't love ANYONE that much except my daughter.

I also really really think you need to find a good counselor for yourself. What you're describing is lack of confidence in yourself, just as much as in her...a la you're not good enough to keep her home. Plus, you'll have someone to talk to so you don't explode on her.


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## showtime

turnera said:


> Well, personally, if my spouse had had an EA and I had decided to stick around, I'd be using every means of snooping I could muster. Including hiring a PI.
> 
> Because if they told me they had stopped, and I found out otherwise, I'd be out of there so quick you wouldn't see me leave. Whether I loved them or not. I will NOT live my life in fear of whether they're lying or not, and I will NOT live with a liar. I don't love ANYONE that much except my daughter.
> 
> I also really really think you need to find a good counselor for yourself. What you're describing is lack of confidence in yourself, just as much as in her...a la you're not good enough to keep her home. Plus, you'll have someone to talk to so you don't explode on her.


I hear ya. And yes this all has been a huge blow to my self confidence. I try real hard to keep it together. 

Also money is real tight right now, I can't afford a PI or counselor.
I am really struggling to maintain right now. I'm doing the best I can to hold myself together. (and the family)


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## turnera

Go to Join the Live United Movement. They'll help you find counseling on a sliding scale, very reasonable.

How odd. That's supposed to say United Way, but you get their new logo instead. Anyway, they do great things, and we all contribute for just such purposes.


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## showtime

Well I blew it. She is looking at an apartment tomorrow. I let my emotions get the best of me. I've been dwelling on everything, and she's over it. She was willing to try to work things out a couple days ago. But I just couldn't control my emotions and her lack of caring got to me. I just feel awful!!


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## turnera

I don't know what to say. You've been screwed over. But at the same time, you needed to control yourself, and ... IDK, you didn't have practice at it? Next time, you'll be better at it?

I'm trying to give you hope, but be realistic at the same time.

I wish I had better advice for you.


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## showtime

Yeah I feel like I have been screwed over bog time. She has no understanding of the pain I'm going through. She acts like she could give a f*** less about how I feel. This whole time I've been trying to keep us all together. And it seems like she has been looking for a way out the whole time. I don't know what to do here. When she gets mad, she puts up a wall. She acts just like our 5 year old daughter does when she's upset. If you can picture a kid that pouts and crosses their arms, and stomps around the house. That's exactly how my wife acts when she is mad. It's kinda rediculous. 

When I am mad or upset, I try to get to the bottom of things. But my wife isn't like that for some reason? 

I don't know what is gonna happen. My wife acts like she is so mad, she can never look back. I talked to her last night and said this apartment deal is all happening too fast. And that it had only been a couple weeks since everyhting has surfaced. And we need more time for everything to work out. So we'll see if she changes her mind today about the apartment. I doubt she will, but you never know?


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## turnera

You don't have to agree to the separation. And you don't have to agree to let her take your daughter out of her home. Tell her that she is free to move, but she will NOT be taking your daughter with her. And you will NOT be letting her use family money to move out.


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## showtime

Well I talked to one of our close mutual friends just now!! She has been lying to her, telling her things that are completely untrue, and manipulating the situation. And I'm sure my wife is doing the same thing at work, because I know she talks to the girls at work about our situation. So she has all these stories built up against me, that are justifying her actions. And the people that are giving her advice don't know the real story. So when all this comes crashing down for her, she is going to look stupid if she doesn't follow through with the advice she has been givin, and the story she has been telling. And I know she looks up to all the ladies at her work, and wouldn't want to look like a fool infront of them. But she is spinning out of control and doesn't even realize or accept it. She is caught up in her world of lies, that she probably feels like there is no turning back, or else she will be in the wrong and everybody will see that. And she will look like the fool. And who wants to look like a fool?

I can't beleive how she has manipulated everyone against me?!!!!


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## Affaircare

showtime said:


> Well I talked to one of our close mutual friends just now!! She has been lying to her, telling her things that are completely untrue, and manipulating the situation. And I'm sure my wife is doing the same thing at work, because I know she talks to the girls at work about our situation. So she has all these stories built up against me, that are justifying her actions. And the people that are giving her advice don't know the real story. So when all this comes crashing down for her, she is going to look stupid if she doesn't follow through with the advice she has been givin, and the story she has been telling. And I know she looks up to all the ladies at her work, and wouldn't want to look like a fool infront of them. But she is spinning out of control and doesn't even realize or accept it. She is caught up in her world of lies, that she probably feels like there is no turning back, or else she will be in the wrong and everybody will see that. And she will look like the fool. And who wants to look like a fool?
> 
> I can't beleive how she has manipulated everyone against me?!!!!


Showtime~ 

When you said that she was still considering divorce papers, a little red flag went up in my head. When you said she wanted a weekend apart, another red flag went up. When you said she was picking fights and wouldn't do "a program" to recover the marriage...more red flags. When you said she wanted to go out looking for apartments, HUGE red flags went up! And now this final clue...that she's lying to her "girlfriends" and most likely the ladies at work...I do not know this for a certainty, because I don't have evidence in a court of law, but I would be willing to bet you money that she is still not only in contact with the OM, but the A is still blazing on. She has all the symptoms of still being VERY fogged in and acting like a disloyal spouse. 

So I would suggest some rather quick investigating (like... you have 24 hours only, gather what you can) and I would suggest some faster, more thorough exposure. You told her mom and that's pretty much all last time right? Well tell her again, and this time include her friends, her coworkers whom you say she respects, her employer, and the OM's wife or family. If you have a pastor, expose to him/her as well and explain that she had lied to you about ending contact. 

This MUST be done, and quickly, or you'll soon see why exposure should be done in one day. Right now from what I can tell, she's been stringing you along while she pushed her A further underground (more secret), she's been lying to people, and she is setting it up so she looks "justified" leaving the controlling evil husband. 

You have 24 hours to gather what intel you can. Search phone records, look for secret phones and emails, and don't let your mind say "Oh she would never do that..." because she WOULD. In 24 hours or less I want to hear what you've found to prove she is still in contact and the A is still blazing away...and tomorrow it will be MASS EXPOSURE.


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## Tanelornpete

> I can't beleive how she has manipulated everyone against me?!!!!


Showtime - again remember that a person who is in an affair tends to create an unreal world based upon the real one - with huge embellishments that justify their actions. It's why we call it a fantasy. They build a fantasy world in which their affair is different from all the others that they've seen. _This one is justified, because ... "x y and z." It is not like other affairs. Other affairs are horrible thing that evil people do to loving spouses. But not this one. This one is an escape from an intolerable situation - from a person who does NOTHING for them, who NEVER loved them, and who is intent on making them unhappy._

Hence, they take things that may indeed be problem areas in their marriage - and turn them into insolvable, insurmountable, impossible situations where leaving the relationship seems the only 'reasonable' thing to do.

The reason I point this out is because it appears to me (and has since the time you mentioned 'divorce papers' out of the blue) that your wife has simply moved the affair deeper underground, rather than ending it. This is one reason why it would have been more effective had you exposed the affair to her work. Because you didn't she has managed to cover that particular area effectively - built up a defense in case you did carry through with what you told her and exposed it there. 

This is 'normal' behavior - to be expected. Please keep in mind that you can't do anything about it now - and move on. Don't dwell on it at all. I repeat - _don't dwell on it at all_. You have steps you can take - don't try to do impossible tasks. 

Keep in mind the steps I wrote earlier. Maintain your pace. Prepare to expose the affair to more people - do that quite quickly. And then sit back, and begin to take stock of your situation - bills, schedule, etc. Figure a budget that will enable you to live alone for a while. You may need to move to that step.

For now - don't get caught up in your emotions. They happen, regardless - simply acknowledge them, and then set about doing the actions you need to take - regardless of how you feel. Emotions always follow thought - they are a reaction. Don't use reaction to make your next move. Act proactively - and simply experience the emotion as a passing thing. Don't let it change your mind ever.

----------------
Now playing: Joni Mitchell - The Gallery
via FoxyTunes


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## showtime

OK!!!! she is busted bigger than ever!!!!!!!!!! Yeasterday while she was at "work" she was supposed to go to the hospital with her boss, all day, and she wouldn't have her phone with her beacuase whe was at the hospital and she couldn't talk. So I called the office and asked for her. The lady said she hadn't seen her all day. Then I asked did she go to the hospital with the doctor, the lady said hesitantly, "I don't know" so I said oh I'll just catch her later then. So after all that, I decided to hang around her office, there is a park right across the street, so I waited at the park for a couple hours. Meanwhile she texted me saying she was back at the office and had to do some paperwork. I never saw the doctors car pull in. So that made me wonder. Then at closing time a big black truck pulled in abd dropped someone off. I couldn't see for sure if it was her, trees were in the way. But I asked her when she got home who got dropped off in the back from a black pickup, of course she said "I don't know" and that I was crazy and needed help!!! S

So this morning I called some friends, and one of them confirmed he drives a big black truck!!! How convienient huh?!!! 

Then before all this, she suppoidly took a trip out of town with some girlfriends at work. When I checked the phone records, she was texting him, all the way up until the point she texted me, and said she had made it. Then all of her and his texts stop, until the next afternoon. Then she texted me and said she was on her way home. Funny huh??!!!! 

So I asked her about this before, and she said she just quit texting him for some dumb reason, I cant remember? Anyway I believed her like an idiot. But with the recent developments now and this pickup, I know what is going on!!!!!! Also her friend I talked to this morning knows that they have still been talking!! Obviously right. 

So I'm sure she has plans for me to be out of the picture and him in. So it's basically over. She is at work right now and she has a rude awakening when she gets home.

I am devistated for our kids and our relashionship. She has taken advantage of me and has complete and utter disrecard for us and our kids!!

Also I think its obvious she has had a PA not just an EM!!!!

So broken hearted!!!!


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## Tanelornpete

Just to let you know, there is still hope for your marriage. But it will take some work - and it's up to you if you want to save it or not. My advice is to do all you can to save your marriage - you have kids involved, and the problems that a divorce cause should be incentive enough to do all you can to avoid it. But...that's up to you...


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## showtime

Tanelornpete said:


> Just to let you know, there is still hope for your marriage. But it will take some work - and it's up to you if you want to save it or not. My advice is to do all you can to save your marriage - you have kids involved, and the problems that a divorce cause should be incentive enough to do all you can to avoid it. But...that's up to you...


What about the PA part of it!!!!! The lies the deceipt!!!!! everything she has done, has destroyed every part of me and this family, and she continues to try and cover it up!!!! WHY!!!!! Whats the point of hiding everything??? She knows I'm onto her, and she still denies it!!


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## Affaircare

Showtime~

I'm so sorry to hear this. You have to realize that some small part of us hopes we're wrong, but having worked with people long enough we recognize the signs. 

I would suggest a couple things right now. Please do your best to listen. PLEASE don't do anything right now. You are WAY too upset and hurt and chances are super good you'll do something out of character, rash, and something you might later regret. If you have to, scoop up your kids and just go for a vacation for the weekend...not to "run away" but to make sure you get your head back on straight. Then, make a decision to not do anything until you have a whole plan okay?


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## Tanelornpete

> What about the PA part of it!!!!! The lies the deceipt!!!!! everything she has done, has destroyed every part of me and this family, and she continues to try and cover it up!!!! WHY!!!!! Whats the point of hiding everything??? She knows I'm onto her, and she still denies it!!


Showtime - I can understand your anger, sadness and fear. And rightly so. You _should_ be feeling these things - it is right and appropriate. But what is NOT appropriate is to act on those impulses. Like Affaircare states above - you are in danger of doing something that you will regret later - and not only that (regret is something that can be lived with) - but you may do some real damage to your kids that will cause them troubles later in life.

Right now, just experience the emotions. They are going to happen regardless, because they are natural (chemical) responses to the knowledge you just gained. You need to process it all first. Take NO drastic steps until you can sit down and calmly write out what you need to do. Again, I stress the word calmly. Add 'thoughtfully' to that.

There is hope - a lot of it. You can pull this all together. Just take it easy - one step at a time. Right now, just vent and steam and cry - whatever it takes to work through the emotions. Then (and only then) start working on what you want to do.

----------------
Now playing: Eric Clapton & BB King - Ten Long Years
via FoxyTunes


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## showtime

I'm taking it all in and I will hold it together!! Thanks everybody!


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## Affaircare

Now you can see why I suggest a vacation "to Gramma's" this weekend with the kids. Your kids will be a big motivation for you to calm down, do better, and come up with a plan of what to do...for them. It may also be a wise idea just to contact your W, let her know you know she's still carrying on her affair and that due to her continued lies you will pack her things and leave them outside the door for the weekend...then lock the door and take all the phones off the hook. Let her figure out where to do go or what to do. 

The point is not to "not feel the pain"--it's to recognize that acting out of the pain or based on it is not the wisest. Wait for it to subside a bit. Come up with a plan and then act on the plan.


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## showtime

She still continues to deny everything, and that I need help. I just don't understand why after all the evidence is stacked up against her, why she is still trying to string me along. 

I think that if she told me the truth, she knows it will be over, and she won't have me to rely on anymore, which is understandable.


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## Initfortheduration

Because when she admits it, it makes it real. You need to file for divorce with the hope (last) that she will finally wake up.


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## Affaircare

Just for the record, I do disagree with Initfortheduration only in that this is just the day you truly discovered it, and filing today would I think we a rather "knee jerk" reaction. However, she is clearly not going to work when she says she is, she's getting into a black pickup and being gone ALL DAY when coincidentally the OM owns a black pickup, and she's lying to friends and coworkers to make you look bad. Showtime, you know as well as I know that she is still involved in the affair. 

For your reassurance, let me just say that denying it in the face of irrefutable evidence is actually quite normal. I had soiled lingerie that was not mine, a credit card payment, a hotel registration with "Mr. and Mrs. (last name)" when we had never been there...and VIDEO TAPE of them walking into the hotel that day and walking out the next day. Showing all this to my ex, he said, "How did you do that?" I said, "Do what?" "Doctor the security tape to make it look like I was there when I wasn't."  Seriously--I'm not kidding. 

Now I can sort of laugh at the ridiculousness of it. If you catch them IN BED, as they dress and cover their nakedness, they say "It's not like it looks!" Right? So I think to expect the truth out of a disloyal spouse in the throws of their affair is actually the crazymaking thing. If you expect lies, you will get what you expect. 

So here are some suggestions and you can pick what works for you. 

If you want to take the kids and get away and think, that is reasonable. Get them from daycare and go, and cry, and think. You'll be okay. 

If you want her to experience the consequences of her choices, that's cool too. Pack some of her items into some luggage, leave them outside the door, lock the door, and take the phones off the hook. That'll work and keep her from more deep, disloyal fog talk to you. 

If you want, tell her to sleep on the sofa. I wouldn't go there if I were you. You've been loyal to the marriage and it's your marriage bed....let her sleep elsewhere if she's determined to cheat. But if she's staying for the weekend DO NOT LISTEN TO HER FOG TALK. Remember...it is Disloyal Dizziness and like babble. It makes no sense so don't get caught in a fight. If she says, "YOU were a terrible husband! I haven't loved you for a long time" just say "That's right. You have been a terrible wife and have not loved and respected me for a long time."  As much as you can, just stay away from her and her lies and vitriol. It won't help right now okay? 

Finally, this weekend is the time to gather your courage for the final chance to save your marriage. If you remember the steps are: 

1) Exposure
2) Carrot and Stick
3) Consequences. 

You haven't done exposure yet, and it desperately needs to be exposed--in broad daylight. She is likely to be mad as a wet hen, but never, EVER forget that she chose to do these actions...all you're doing is telling people the truth. So that will be the first thing to do to try to break the affair's back. 

Next for carrot and stick, you show her that you know there are things you could have done better and ways you neglected her...and simultaneously you don't allow her to use family income to continue the affair, you don't pay for her phone bill, you don't deposit to a "shared" bank account. Let her have a taste of the man you were who won her heart, and a taste of the reality of what it will be like if she leaves you. (Right now she thinks: I get the house, the kids, alimony, child support, showtime disappears, OM takes his place, and everyone is happy for me and loves OM--NOT REALITY!) 

Finally for consequences, when you have almost no more love left for her and you're done--you tell her than until she is willing to end the affair and return to you and the marriage--AND willing to let you check and investigate to verify she's telling the truth--that you can not be in contact with her. You won't "be friends" or help her with moving or packing or give her money or help if she needs it. If she is determined to wreck the marriage she'll have to do all the work on her own; you won't cooperate in that. Then you go completely dark and go about living your life in a way that is the high road--going to counseling yourself and parenting classes to learn how to be a great man. Be fair, just, and don't speak to her, email, IM or write. No contact until she is ready to end the affair. Let her taste the bitterness of parents who are mad, losing her job, kids who are angry and crying and misbehaving who don't like the OM, not being able to pay her bills, legal hassles, etc. It's a hard lesson but allow her to learn it. 

Okay? Got a plan for tonight and the weekend?


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## turnera

Please get on the phone right now and start calling everyone in your wife's life and tell them that she is having an affair and you need their help.

*now!*


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## showtime

You know, I'm good with all of what everyone is saying. And I'm comfortable doing that. The one concern I have is for the kids. They are 5 and 3 years old. Do I leave them behind for a bit??? I know if I force her out, she will snatch the kids and be gone. Which is what might have to happen. But I am really concerned for them, and want to make te best move for them!!!

Maybe me gone, she wil realize what a pain it is for her to deal with the kids on her own?

Also, I found out she has introduced the kids to TOM!!! And my oldest confirmed this, and guess what else? She said he has a black truck!!!!!


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## showtime

Also after all this, she is still very comfortable being naked in front of me, and sleeping in the same bed?? What's up with that!!


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## showtime

Alright well, we had it out last night. She got online and tried to change her cell phone from my account to her own account. So I asked her what she was doing? She said she was changing her phone so she could control it by herself. I tried to grab for it, and she swooped it away real fast, and said she was gonna call the cops if I wasn't carefull. I said I'm not doing anything, I just want "MY" phone back. (I gave it to her for valentines day) She said it was her phone. I explained to her that I know what is going on and there is no sense trying to hide it. Anyway, she said she will contact a lawer, and I'll probably get divorce papers served to me. 

So she went in the bedroom and packed some things in an overnight bag. On the way out she said I have a rude awakening, and that she hopes I am happy. I was real calm during all of this, and watched her leave.
I fixed the phone back around because she didn't do it right, and suspended her service. Unfortunatly she drained the bank account. I don't know where she went, but I can imagine she went to TOM. But I don't know for sure. He does live with his parents though, which is kinda funny.

I'm not sure how this will play out, I'll probably get screwed because I live in a no fault state. But we'll see what happens?


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## showtime

I don't know what it is, I still feel very strongly towards this girl. She has totally and completely stolen my heart. Even knowing what I know. And it's not just because somebody else wants her. I've always felt this way throughout our relationship. I always thought we were just going to weather the young couple storm and move into our mid to late 30's and get it figured out. 

I don't know where we are at in our relationship. She said she stayed at a hotel in town. IDK. But she did come back today and take the kids to a mutual friends house to decorate easter eggs, something we did every year together. And when she picked up the girls, they asked if I was going. Talk about bringing a grown man to tears!!! I told them that "you guys are gonna go" and they left. She dropped them back off and went to stay with another mutual friend, "supposedly" I don't know for sure there either. But our mutual friend she decorated eggs with called me and said that she was showing remorse and some sympathy for me. But she doesn't show that at home or when she is here.

I don't know what the point of this post is. But our friend explained my very strong feelings towards this girl was "true love" and when you can still look past all the bad, and accept them for who they are. That's what it is.

I don't know what to think about all that, but when she told me "that's true love" I started crying instantly. I can't explain it. But if she does come around and want to really be together again, how do I get past the fact that somebody else was pleasuring my wife, when I should have been the one. I know it sounds gross or whatever. But that part of a relationship means very much to me. So the thoughts of her giving all of herself to someone else, kills me. How do I overcome that part of it?

Thank you!


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## Tanelornpete

Showtime, the first thing I want to say is that I'm sorry that you are going through this. It's very hard to endure and sometimes feels like an endless pain - like there's no end to the despair and anguish. Just to let you know, there is an end to it - there is hope.

Having said that, I also need to say that when I first read your post I was so angry I was about ready to spit teeth. Not at your wife - she's doing pretty much as expected - following the 'script' almost to the letter. No - I am angry at you. And I believe for a very good reason. 

Here's the reason: you refuse to think. Instead, you react. Over and over and over we here on this thread have given you steps to follow, procedures to do - and the reasons for doing them. We do not do this just because it feels nice to give people advice. We give these steps, these reasons, because we have experience dealing with _this exact problem._ We know what works and why, and we know what does not work, and why.

Over and over I have tried to emphasize the importance of proactively dealing with the problem, rather than reacting to everything. The reason why becomes more clear when I use a concrete example. 

Note that I am NOT using this example to rub your nose in it (I imagine you are doing that yourself). Nor to tell you that what you did was wrong (you probable figured that out yourself.) The reason I am using it is to show you that if you actively approached the problem - thought about your actions before acting - you would have know it was wrong before you did it - and would not have done it.

You wrote:



> She got online and tried to change her cell phone from my account to her own account. So I asked her what she was doing? She said she was changing her phone so she could control it by herself. I tried to grab for it, and she swooped it away real fast, and said she was gonna call the cops if I wasn't carefull. I said I'm not doing anything, I just want "MY" phone back. (I gave it to her for valentines day) She said it was her phone.


This entire exchange is filled with love busters (extinguishers) and actions depending upon _reacting_ to emotions - the very things you are supposed to be ACTIVELY (that is, with careful thought) avoiding.

The biggest issue: you tried to grab the phone away from her. Now I could see a child acting that way - not an adult! If you had thought about this ahead of time, you would have asked yourself these questions:

_1) If I grab this phone, what will she do?

2) What is the worst thing that could happen if she just went ahead and switched the phone to her own account._

Not only would you have asked yourself those questions, but you would have answered them:

_1) She will get very angry at me, and will not listen to a thing I say for a long time.

2) I won't be paying for her phone service - she will._ That's the WORST that would happen. So why the attempt at assault?

And you would have avoided digging an even deeper pit that you will now have to find a way from which to extricate yourself.

Unless you start THINKING, and stop REACTING, you will NOT save your marriage.

As it stands right now, there is a very good chance that you will be facing a restraining order that will separate you from your children for quite a while - and also give her a good argument for custody if this thing comes to divorce - which is the road you are heedlessly rushing towards, all the while crying you don't want it. She can claim you tried to assault her, and you have been stalking her. She can claim she is not certain what you will do around the kids - that she is not certain they are safe. Why? Because you depend on WHATEVER you are feeling at the time - if you feel like yelling, you yell. If you feel like attacking, you attack. There is no way to predict what you will do next - except that you seem to be distraught, perhaps with an extreme controlling personality disorder. A judge will eat that up! 

You MUST STOP.

_Why_ do you KEEP doing the things that will CAUSE what you don't want to happen? What exactly is the payoff here? What are you secretly getting out of this? 

Until you can answer that question, be prepared for things to go exactly the way you do not want them to go. 

We have given you clear steps to follow. Two days ago Turnera told you to get on the phone and expose the affair...*NOW*.

The step could not have been more clear. Yet you did not do it!

_These steps work._ I have seen it work many times. Not always but more often than not. But I can tell you with almost absolute certainty - if you keep ignoring the warnings and doing things 'your way' you _will_ lose this 'true love.'



> But if she does come around and want to really be together again, how do I get past the fact that somebody else was pleasuring my wife, when I should have been the one. I know it sounds gross or whatever. But that part of a relationship means very much to me. So the thoughts of her giving all of herself to someone else, kills me. How do I overcome that part of it?


This is a crux moment for you. The next few steps, the next few days, will absolutely determine whether you have a family, or you end up paying child support and seeing your kids once or twice a month. So pay attention.

1) (Tanelorn yelling) _*This is not the time to worry about this!*_ You will have time to work on your relationship if it survives your actions! 

2) The biggest point I've seen in your threads, over and over, is the fact that you are trying to MAKE your wife behave the way YOU want her to. While that would certainly be nice - it is nearly impossible. No person has that kind of control over another human being. And your efforts to MAKE her behave keep backfiring over and over and over. Instead of you doing what you need to do, you yell at her, plead with her, cry near her, moan, cajole, tempt, tease, threaten, beg, grovel, contort, posture, flip, flap and wheeze. And this is ALL she is seeing.

One time. One time only, did you get her attention, and it was only for a brief moment, when you confronted her and you both sat down and discussed it. At that moment, you had the opportunity to set your family on track. Ever after that, we've been helping you patch the holes you punch in your boat, and bail out the water. 

You can't MAKE someone not get their own phone account. You can't MAKE someone love you. You can ONLY be the kind of person that they love. And that requires careful, deliberate action. Deliberate as in planned, sequenced, and methodical. You must quit reacting or you lose. You. Must. Start. Thinking.

----------------
Now playing: Bruce Becvar - Sands Of Time
via FoxyTunes


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## showtime

I know tanelporte, I get caught up in it, and she eats it up. I have exposed the affair to all the friends and family. They have all been in her ear, all weekend. She claims she is tired of everyone telling her she is wrong and what not. I have come to terms with everything now, and I am going to settle my reactions down and THINK rationally. Obviously what I've been doing hasn't worked.


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## Tanelornpete

So right old chap! So whats the next step?


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## showtime

Well I've done the carrot and stick method last night, I've already took her name off of the phone, I took her name off the bank account, changed all passwords to everything we had together.
Now for the kicker, I am full prepared to leave and go on with my life, just a few questions though, When she wants me to watch the kids, and she will, what happens there, I know no contact at all, until she agrees to be totally transparent, But I know she will be upset by not watching the kids, so how do I handle that part, she is not willing to leave, she doesn't mind staying the night with friends, but she wants to come over and spend time with the kids.

If you could give me more insight to this situation, I know I can stick to it.

Tonite she is staying with one of our mutual friends, and I have the kids. Should I leave tomorrow and not look back, even for the kids?

Also I have asked her to stay away indefinitly, but she refuses and says I'm trying to keep her from our kids.


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## Initfortheduration

Do not leave, it can be used against you in court as abandonment. You did right in separating finances. But you cannot leave.


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## showtime

Another issue is, we have comittments together. We are both soccer coaches for our daughters team?


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## Initfortheduration

Soccer coaches? Your wife's treachery effects everything.


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## showtime

I've also considered a "trial run" of what life would be like if we were divorced. I would be gone for 2 weeks and come get the kids for the weekend, then another 2 weeks come and get the kids. Maybe only meeting for soccer practices and games? 

I think that would give her a real dose of reality.


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## showtime

Initfortheduration said:


> Soccer coaches? Your wife's treachery effects everything.


Yeah I know, she just expects me to deal with it. And get over it.


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## Tanelornpete

> If you could give me more insight to this situation, I know I can stick to it.



Ok, ask yourself this question: do you want to save your marriage?

If so, then reread the steps (I'll post 'em here):

*First step: Confrontation.* Sit down with your wife and formally request that she end the affair. Don't fight about it, don't plead, don't try to bargain. All you want to do is make the statement, pure and simple. What this does is starts the process of recovery, regardless of whether your spouse agrees or not. By formally requesting an end to the affair, you bring it to the forefront as a focal point for both you and your spouse. It can no longer be ignored, excused, hidden, etc. Part of the formal request is to ask you spouse to stop ALL contact with this other person. This is a bigger step than you can at first imagine - there's a lot of information that we can get to you later.

If your spouse agrees to stop the affair, you can move on to working on recovery (yes, there are some deliberate things you can do there too)

*Second Step:* *Exposure. *If your spouse does not agree to end the affair, then you must bring it to light. That means exposing it to the right people. The Other Person's spouse/significant other should be aware that their partner is being unfaithful. If the affair is at a work place, alert the Human Resources Dept (or equivalent) about the affair. Talk to parents, pastors, counselors, friends, etc.

If this step succeeds (it quite often does) you can move on to recovering your marriage. If it fails, then you have some work ahead of you.
*
The third step: **'Carrot and Stick' - also called Plan A. *

This involves what you've already begun. For the time being you will have to live with your spouse being unfaithful, and hurting you every day. In this step you will continue to be the person your spouse fell in love with - and grow to be more than that - someone they desire.

HOWEVER! _This step must be temporary._ No one can continue to be hurt by the careless actions of their spouse indefinitely. At some point you will lose all love for your partner altogether - something you don't want to do. Perhaps set yourself six months or so.* Stick by that limit.*

There are two reasons for this step: one reason is that you will leave a lasting impression on your spouse about the person they were harming. The other reason is that you can face the next step with grace - knowing that you did all you really could.

If, however, your spouse continues in the affair, and the end of your preset time allotment comes - your must move to the next step:

*Fourth Step:** Consequences (or Plan B). *

Here you will either move out, or move your spouse out of your life. You will break all contact with your spouse, and allow them to face the full consequences of their choice of someone else over you. This step is not one to be taken lightly, and there are some specific things you must do while setting this one up. Don't undertake it without advice from people who've had experience with it.​
What you've done so far (...name off of the phone, name off the bank account, changed all passwords) is excellent. Right now, however, do not do the 'trial run' - that will be the fourth step (Plan B) - where she will experience all of the consequences of her choice to leave her family. Right now, do Plan A. _The Carrot and Stick is not a one time thing._ Set a time line (say, 6 weeks) where you simply do all you can to fill your wife's needs (if she ever shows up) - avoid ANYTHING that can destroy love - by that I mean the Love Busters that can put out the fire of her love. Note that the steps you have taken are simply to protect your family - they may make her mad, but these are not love busters, since *IF* she was in the family, she'd still be a part of it all. Be the best husband you can be. Concentrate on being Dad. And be patient. loving and calm. This may be the hardest period of your life, since you most likely will be suffering a massive loss of love for her - but do it WITH THOUGHT - realize that you are doing this for the sole purpose of healing a broken marriage. Do not give in to your emotions. Feel free to FEEL them though! (You will anyway - there's no way to escape that!)

And prepare yourself for what MAY come - finances, etc. Get ready for living alone - even if it never happens, it will still be a great way to be prepared for life WITH her in the future...

----------------
Now playing: The Cardinals - The Door Is Still Open
via FoxyTunes


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## showtime

Tanelornpete said:


> Ok, ask yourself this question: do you want to save your marriage?
> 
> If so, then reread the steps (I'll post 'em here):
> 
> *First step: Confrontation.* Sit down with your wife and formally request that she end the affair. Don't fight about it, don't plead, don't try to bargain. All you want to do is make the statement, pure and simple. What this does is starts the process of recovery, regardless of whether your spouse agrees or not. By formally requesting an end to the affair, you bring it to the forefront as a focal point for both you and your spouse. It can no longer be ignored, excused, hidden, etc. Part of the formal request is to ask you spouse to stop ALL contact with this other person. This is a bigger step than you can at first imagine - there's a lot of information that we can get to you later.
> 
> If your spouse agrees to stop the affair, you can move on to working on recovery (yes, there are some deliberate things you can do there too)
> 
> *Second Step:* *Exposure. *If your spouse does not agree to end the affair, then you must bring it to light. That means exposing it to the right people. The Other Person's spouse/significant other should be aware that their partner is being unfaithful. If the affair is at a work place, alert the Human Resources Dept (or equivalent) about the affair. Talk to parents, pastors, counselors, friends, etc.
> 
> If this step succeeds (it quite often does) you can move on to recovering your marriage. If it fails, then you have some work ahead of you.
> *
> The third step: **'Carrot and Stick' - also called Plan A. *
> 
> This involves what you've already begun. For the time being you will have to live with your spouse being unfaithful, and hurting you every day. In this step you will continue to be the person your spouse fell in love with - and grow to be more than that - someone they desire.
> 
> HOWEVER! _This step must be temporary._ No one can continue to be hurt by the careless actions of their spouse indefinitely. At some point you will lose all love for your partner altogether - something you don't want to do. Perhaps set yourself six months or so.* Stick by that limit.*
> 
> There are two reasons for this step: one reason is that you will leave a lasting impression on your spouse about the person they were harming. The other reason is that you can face the next step with grace - knowing that you did all you really could.
> 
> If, however, your spouse continues in the affair, and the end of your preset time allotment comes - your must move to the next step:
> 
> *Fourth Step:** Consequences (or Plan B). *
> 
> Here you will either move out, or move your spouse out of your life. You will break all contact with your spouse, and allow them to face the full consequences of their choice of someone else over you. This step is not one to be taken lightly, and there are some specific things you must do while setting this one up. Don't undertake it without advice from people who've had experience with it.​
> What you've done so far (...name off of the phone, name off the bank account, changed all passwords) is excellent. Right now, however, do not do the 'trial run' - that will be the fourth step (Plan B) - where she will experience all of the consequences of her choice to leave her family. Right now, do Plan A. _The Carrot and Stick is not a one time thing._ Set a time line (say, 6 weeks) where you simply do all you can to fill your wife's needs (if she ever shows up) - avoid ANYTHING that can destroy love - by that I mean the Love Busters that can put out the fire of her love. Note that the steps you have taken are simply to protect your family - they may make her mad, but these are not love busters, since *IF* she was in the family, she'd still be a part of it all. Be the best husband you can be. Concentrate on being Dad. And be patient. loving and calm. This may be the hardest period of your life, since you most likely will be suffering a massive loss of love for her - but do it WITH THOUGHT - realize that you are doing this for the sole purpose of healing a broken marriage. Do not give in to your emotions. Feel free to FEEL them though! (You will anyway - there's no way to escape that!)
> 
> And prepare yourself for what MAY come - finances, etc. Get ready for living alone - even if it never happens, it will still be a great way to be prepared for life WITH her in the future...
> 
> ----------------
> Now playing: The Cardinals - The Door Is Still Open
> via FoxyTunes


 Ok I can handle this. 

She is dead set on spltting up though. She wants to get her own place and be done.

But with that being said, I will try real hard keep her here at home, and where she should be, but I know she doesn't want to be here. At least that is what she thinks right now.

We'll see what happens! Thanks!!


----------



## Affaircare

showtime said:


> Well I've done the carrot and stick method last night, I've already took her name off of the phone, I took her name off the bank account, changed all passwords to everything we had together.


Showtime-- *sigh, deep breath* When we suggest step one =exposure, and then step two ="carrot and stick" we don't mean "do this one time for one night and then move to divorce. It's a bit longer than that and a process. For example, with exposure, part of the process is calling everyone or emailing if they are long distance...and part of the process is giving her family and friends and YOUR family and friends, her employer, and your pastor the time to talk to her, give her the assistance she needs to end her affair, and day-by-day keep at her to stop. 

The way you've been doing it is "shoot from the hip in response to this" and "shoot from the hip in response to that." So like Tanelorn says, we understand why you would be all shook up and hurt and panicking ... but right now your marriage literally depends on you to be as consistent and collected and wise as you can be. Think of it this way. Your house is on fire. You can NOT run around panicked--you need to stop, remember the lay out of our house, be calm, walk into the fire, and get your family out. If you panic and run around freaked out...you lose them. 

Soooo... take many deep breaths and strap in for a longer haul. This will not be cured in "one day" or "one fight." Exposure is bringing the affair to the light of day to all who can help fight it. You try to get them all at once, but it may take a few days and you do it in love. If you are freaked out and "tattle-tale" to the ladies at work, for example, since you didn't expose before she now has it all set up to say: "See? I told you he was controlling and now he's trying to control my love life." On the other hand, if you are calm, loving and consistent, you are telling the truth and asking for help--a much different story. 

The next step, "Carrot and Stick" can be a step that takes a month or more. How long did it take you two to fall in love and get married? Was it one night...over a fight? Then it won't be fixed in one night over a fight either. You are going to have to demonstrate, by your actions, consistently, that you love yourself, you love your family and you love her enough to not sit back and do nothing while she destroys the family...and that you love her enough to let her learn some hard lessons. Carrot = you being the man she fell in love with. Remember that guy? You have it in you! But right now, he's hidden by a panicked, begging, or angry guy! All she sees is the side of you that hurts her, so look at yourself honestly, control yourself and stop doing the things like angry explosions; scorekeeping; fault finding; judging her disrespectfully; not being personally transparency; making it "Your way or the Highway"; continuing irritating habits (after she's asked you to stop); being passive aggressive; behaving independently; NOT forgiving; being a Bottomless Pit (where enough is never enough); and getting too comfortable and being lazy about the relationship! Those kinds of behaviors are killing and killed your marriage. At the same time, start being the man she loved...talk with her and really listen, care about the things she's interested in, admire what she does and how smart she is, appreciate what she does to contribute, be romantic now and then (make the effort to try!), don't just have sex--make love to her, be affectionate, be thoughtful, do things to please her, when she asks for help changing a lightbulb or a small household chore...help her, care enough about the kids to raise them WITH her! And showtime, I care about ya but don't tell me "I did all that." I mean it--I care! So be really thoughtful and be honest with where you blew it...and work on stopping the hurting stuff (Love Extinguishers) and starting the loving stuff (Love Kindlers). All of THAT is the "Carrot" and I highly doubt you did all of that last night during the fight. 

The "Stick" part is fair but firm--she has the right to be herself and make her own choices and you can not stop her...but you do not need to be involved in helping her have an affair or helping her finance her "getaway." She is employed--if she wants to destroy the family, the "stick" is you being respectful but allowing her to taste some of the costs of her decisions. So, taking her name off of accounts and stopping her phone is a good example. If she wants to leave, SHE leaves and you and the kids stay safe at home...in the family home, in their bedrooms, in their neighborhood, with the parent who is thinking of their best interests. She needs to understand that at BEST, she will lose half of her time with her children, and all of your financial support. Some of these she can taste with "stick". The end idea here is positive reinforcement (carrot) that you can be someone who kindles her fire, and negative reinforcement (stick) that choosing the affair can be very painful and she *will* lose things she holds dear. 



> Now for the kicker, I am full prepared to leave and go on with my life, just a few questions though, When she wants me to watch the kids, and she will, what happens there, I know no contact at all, until she agrees to be totally transparent, But I know she will be upset by not watching the kids, so how do I handle that part..


I don't think you're grasping the idea here, showtime. You would not leave. YOU are the rightful husband and father, and the OM is the interloper. She made a vow to YOU (not him), and she has a duty to the children and family (not to the OM). If she wants to break her vow and destroy the family, SHE leaves and SHE does not take the kids. YOU will be their consistent, firm, fair, patient father who is thinking more of their best interests by trying to keep their family in tact. YOU step up to the plate and get them to daycare. YOU pack lunches, clean clothes, and give them baths...in their home, in their beds. YOU did not break up the family so YOU do not leave!!! 

If she will not leave, then that's her choice and you have more opportunity then to be with her and be doing "carrot and stick." Thus, she would not be asking you to watch the kids, because the kids are with you and she is the one taking off to be with some stranger whom the kids don't like! And if anything, you would invite her back to the family home to "visit" the kids she's left for her OM. Seriously--showtime you have to hear this--if you let her take the kids or you leave, you are once again playing right into her hands and it will doom your family. If she won't leave and tries to live in the family home and carry on the affair, it makes it harder for her (GOOD! More chance to end the affair!). Meanwhile, with some self-dignity, you show her that the guy she fell-in-love with is still there and you still think highly enough of yourself to expect to be with someone who loves you back! 

Get it? 



> ... she is not willing to leave, she doesn't mind staying the night with friends, but she wants to come over and spend time with the kids...Also I have asked her to stay away indefinitely, but she refuses and says I'm trying to keep her from our kids.


No showtime--HER CHOICES and HER ACTIONS are what is keeping her away from her kids. She is 100% free and clear to be with her kids 100% of the day and night if she chooses to honor her vow and return to her husband, marriage and family. This is very much like the disloyals who say, "You were dragging my name through the mud by telling everyone!" or "You got me fired by telling at work!" No. Their choices and their behavior did that. She wants to make her choice to destroy her husband and family ... and have no consequences. Well that is not realistic! (See why we say that folks having an affair are living in a fantasy?) In reality, she could spend all the time she wants with her kids by ending all contact with the OM, putting the energy into her MARRIAGE that's she's putting into the affair, and being a person who honors her word. 

See that?

So next time she tries to pull that, just tell her no. Tell her you love her and you choose her, but you won't have the affair going on in the house, harming the children, and if she wants to she is 100% welcome to end the affair, work on the marriage and spend every night putting her children to bed.


----------



## Tanelornpete

> But with that being said, I will try real hard keep her here at home, and where she should be, but I know she doesn't want to be here. At least that is what she thinks right now.


Showtime! You can't keep her! She isn't a prisoner, and she won't respond to any commands or pleas that you might come up with. She is a free human being, who must be responsible for her actions.

Your job is simply to keep your home, be her husband, and the kid's Dad! She is off in la-la land, and you can't stop her from doing that! Please don't try - unless you want even more problems!!!! 

All you need to do is be the kind of man she loves. Even if she isn't home right now...


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## turnera

showtime said:


> Tonite she is staying with one of our mutual friends, and I have the kids. Should I leave tomorrow and not look back, even for the kids?


 NO! YOU DO NOT LEAVE!

If you leave the house, you can be cited for abandonment.

Pack up her stuff, put it all on the front porch, and leave a note on it saying that she is welcome to go live with her boyfriend, but YOU ARE STAYING.

DO NOT LEAVE YOUR HOUSE.

Oh, and go by the police station and file a report that she is slandering you - the first person to put in the report is the one they believe. If SHE makes the report, and says she is afraid of you, YOU will lose your children.

Will she be mad? Yes. But your marriage can survive her anger. It cannot survive another man.


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## turnera

showtime said:


> I've also considered a "trial run" of what life would be like if we were divorced. I would be gone for 2 weeks and come get the kids for the weekend, then another 2 weeks come and get the kids. Maybe only meeting for soccer practices and games?
> 
> I think that would give her a real dose of reality.


 Oh yeah, THAT will scare her into submission.

Not.

Come on, man, this is your marriage. Act like a man and fight for it. What would you be doing if she were addicted to drugs? Would you suggest she keep getting her drugs 2 weeks each month? She is addicted to cheating.

Either you accept it or you tell her NO.


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## Affaircare

showtime said:


> Ok I can handle this.
> 
> She is dead set on spltting up though. She wants to get her own place and be done.
> 
> But with that being said, I will try real hard keep her here at home, and where she should be, but I know she doesn't want to be here. At least that is what she thinks right now.
> 
> We'll see what happens! Thanks!!


LOL *sigh* Showtime you are making me tired. Let's see if I can say this to you another way. 

I want to *make* you move here with me. I'm going to *force* you to move to the Pacific Northwest...because I think it's what you should do. I'm going to be manipulative, fight with you, beg you, and then take away all your money until you are forced to do it even though you hate it and hate me. 

Now...does that in any way sound healthy, loving, or like it will restore love to a dying relationship? No--it doesn't. Right?

YOU can not "make her stay home." If she wants to leave, she may have to leave. If she is dead set on splitting up, getting her own place, and being done, she may choose that. What we are trying to say to you is this: 

Let her be free to make HER choices about HER--you make decisions about YOU and on behalf of your FAMILY (i.e., the children). She's an adult, she can go. She CAN NOT leave and take the kids. Period. She's free. She will miss them and hurt. But she can not make you leave and she can not take the kids. 

Does that make sense? That would be like me saying to you (in my example above), "Showtime, here in the Pacific Northwest is our home, the kids' home, their beds, their friends, their school, their family, their grandparents and all that. It hurts me a TON that you don't want to be here with me. If you are determined to go, I can't stop you. You are an adult, please decide for yourself. But what I can is that I won't allow you to decide for my life or decide to destroy the kids' lives. This is their home and their life and if you want to no longer be part of it, you are free to go...but they will not be going. I'll be their parent and care for them here, and I pray the day will come when you want to return." 

Now...does that in any way sound healthy, loving, or like it will restore love to a dying relationship? Yeah--it does, huh?


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## turnera

showtime said:


> Ok I can handle this.
> 
> She is dead set on spltting up though. She wants to get her own place and be done.
> 
> But with that being said, I will try real hard keep her here at home, and where she should be, but I know she doesn't want to be here. At least that is what she thinks right now.
> 
> We'll see what happens! Thanks!!


 LET her leave. LET her see what life is like without your money and without her kids.


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## showtime

OK I got you guys. I'll be the first to admit I have done a lot of things wrong here. What's done is done, and I gotta keep pushing forward.

The thing is she wants to get her own place. And I'm fine with that, like you said I can't "keep" her here against her will, I know that. But when she says she is going to get a place she says she is taking the kids with her. And I try to calmly explain that this is their home, and I'ts not their fault you chose to be unfaithful to us.

But obviously she gets really angry and starts threatening things like, lawers, divorce, custody battle, junk like that. So I am unsure what to do in that situation, because she doesn't truly have the kids best interest at heart. She is trying to use them as leverage against me. So I don't know where she is at with all of this. Her friend told me she was going to get a place on monday. I haven't heard anything about that yet from my W. So we'll see what she says tomorrow?


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## showtime

Also she gets really ugly when I tell her no about the kids leaving. But I talked to the dispatcher today and she said whoever has them can have them, and as long as they are clean and healthy, the cops can't do anything either way. So I would not put it past her to rip them out of the house to go with her. Like I said, she has no interest in what is best for them, she is only thinking of herself and is being selfish and trying to use them as leverage.


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## Affaircare

Showtime~

If she is going to divorce you, there will be lawyers, divorce, custody battle and junk like that. It is a threat for her to get her own way. What I mean is that right this second it is so much hot air....I could threaten you with "If you don't wear blue sweats I'm going to come over there and smash your car" but it's just so much hot air, with the hope that you'll get scared. See what I mean?

As we've been telling you, stay calm. Know your rights, and as a father in a no-fault state your minimum would be 50/50 custody of your children. You are their FATHER and have exactly equal right to have them, keep them and care for them as she does...so don't fall for the threats okay? 

If she wants her own place, she can go but firmly without threatening or arguing or in any way even raising your voice let her know that the kids are yours as well and they are not leaving their home. 

Let her get angry. You know, it hurts her a LOT to realize that her affair may cost her the children...so she's fighting her fear and hurt by being angry. You have legal rights to keep them in their own home, and you have the means to provide for them, and you have the ability to be a father who cares for his children. Right? Don't let her threats shake you. 

If it were to come to a divorce and lawyers, don't forget that YOUR lawyer would come to your aid and fight for your custody rights just as tough as hers would. Okay? Just be solid, consistent, firm, and if need be walk out of the room. The kids do not move. You do not move. She is free to choose for herself.


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## turnera

LET HER THREATEN. 

Go to YOUR lawyer Monday morning and tell them she's trying to remove the kids from THEIR HOME.

showtime, how many times do we say this?

STOP BEING THE NICE, WEAK, SCARED GUY. 

You CAN get your wife back, but that requires you staying in the house, the KIDS staying in the house, and OM out of the picture. That is all you need to worry about right now. Call everyone you know near you, and tell them what she's trying, tell them you need to help you by being witnesses so that she can't call the cops on you. If you have someone there at all times, she has no leg to stand on; she can't blame you for anything. Line up friends all weekend long; or else take the kids to friends' or relatives' house so she can't take them.

You can get her back. But right now you have to focus.

Will you PLEASE just stop listening to all this crap, calm down, and IGNORE HER?

FOCUS.

All you need to do is keep your kids with you, ignore her BS, get everyone on your side for now, and protect what finances you have left, and talk to a lawyer. Chances are you can get rid of the lawyer once her anger fades; but for now, you need him.

Spend some time over at marriagebuilders reading threads in their Infidelity section. You'll see people putting Tanelorn's plan in action, and it working.


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## turnera

Make some calls and get some friends to stay with you for the next 48 hours so she can't walk out with the kids.


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## Tanelornpete

> Also she gets really ugly when I tell her no about the kids leaving. But I talked to the dispatcher today and she said whoever has them can have them, and as long as they are clean and healthy, the cops can't do anything either way. So I would not put it past her to rip them out of the house to go with her. Like I said, she has no interest in what is best for them, she is only thinking of herself and is being selfish and trying to use them as leverage.


It's been my experience that a person who IS in the midst of an affair will generally use the kids to create a crisis, to make things look bad - and to impress their lovers. But at the same time, the kids tend to get in the way of the affair. 

If she is just talking about the kids staying over a couple days a week, etc., then there should be not problem - that's nothing to stress over - their home is still the one they live in now. Mom's place will be something to visit.

On the other hand, if she is trying to move them away from home, permanently, you will have to get legal help. The kids are worth it. One thing you can do is contact the police, explain that your wife is having an affair (also explain that you are not trying to get them to side with you, or stop the affair) and that your wife may be contemplating snatching the kids from their home. 

However, keep this in mind - the kids will be in the way of the affair. She will not want them if the demands they place on her outweigh the 'good feelings' she gets from the affair - you'll end up with them again. So please do not panic over this.


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## showtime

Tanelornpete said:


> It's been my experience that a person who IS in the midst of an affair will generally use the kids to create a crisis, to make things look bad - and to impress their lovers. But at the same time, the kids tend to get in the way of the affair.
> 
> If she is just talking about the kids staying over a couple days a week, etc., then there should be not problem - that's nothing to stress over - their home is still the one they live in now. Mom's place will be something to visit.
> 
> On the other hand, if she is trying to move them away from home, permanently, you will have to get legal help. The kids are worth it. One thing you can do is contact the police, explain that your wife is having an affair (also explain that you are not trying to get them to side with you, or stop the affair) and that your wife may be contemplating snatching the kids from their home.
> 
> However, keep this in mind - the kids will be in the way of the affair. She will not want them if the demands they place on her outweigh the 'good feelings' she gets from the affair - you'll end up with them again. So please do not panic over this.


THANK YOU!!!! this is what I was looking for!!


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## showtime

Happy Easter everyone, 

Another thing, we have a mutual friend that she has confided in, and is telling our friend basically everything she is still doing with TOM. My W does not know that our friend is giving me their info. Would it be a good idea to sit down with all of us and confront her calmly?!!!!! Because I think this gives my wife comfort in telling somebody and our friend could be enabling her?!!! And our friends and family have talked to her numerous times, and my W says she is sick of hearing it, obviously, but do they need to keep in her ear all the time????!!!!


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## turnera

showtime, you CAN NOT discuss anything with your wife at this point. All she cares about is keeping her FIX of the OM. She will lie, steal (bank account, anyone?), and threaten, just to keep seeing him.

The purpose of exposing is to make her and OM realize that people are NOT happy with them. That they will NOT be welcomed as a couple (if that's even what OM wants; he may just want sex). That people are ASHAMED of them.

Then, once everyone has told her that, you sit back for a while, and see if that is enough to end the affair. By all means, ask the people you told to not let up on her IF they want to. But you may want to point out to these people that, at least for now, you'll take her back, if she just stops the affair. She needs to hear that, as she may now feel backed up against a wall.

So what you CAN say to her - and nothing else (except 'the kids stay here with me') - is "All you have to do is stop seeing the OM and we can become a family again."

That's it.

You do NOT hold an intervention at this point. Let the exposure do its work.

You can tell this friend your concerns, and then let her decide what to do. You have to let go of what other people do, ok?

Stand firm.
Keep repeating your position - you have to stop seeing OM.
Refuse to leave your home.
Refuse to allow her to take the kids out of their home.
Thank others for helping you if it comes up.
Do NOT talk to her about anything but stopping the affair; tell her she can leave and continue to see him - without the kids - or she can stop it and stay at home.
Look good; smell good; keep the house in great shape so she sees what she'll be giving up.
Protect your finances (what's left), tell the police she may be a kidnapper, and talk to a lawyer.
If she becomes belligerent, pack her clothes and leave them on the front porch. Check with your state on whether you can change the locks as well.

She needs a wakeup call. and she needs to realize you aren't going to let her walk all over you. If you are going to be firm one time in your life, this is the time to do it.


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## showtime

turnera said:


> showtime, you CAN NOT discuss anything with your wife at this point. All she cares about is keeping her FIX of the OM. She will lie, steal (bank account, anyone?), and threaten, just to keep seeing him.
> 
> The purpose of exposing is to make her and OM realize that people are NOT happy with them. That they will NOT be welcomed as a couple (if that's even what OM wants; he may just want sex). That people are ASHAMED of them.
> 
> Then, once everyone has told her that, you sit back for a while, and see if that is enough to end the affair. By all means, ask the people you told to not let up on her IF they want to. But you may want to point out to these people that, at least for now, you'll take her back, if she just stops the affair. She needs to hear that, as she may now feel backed up against a wall.
> 
> So what you CAN say to her - and nothing else (except 'the kids stay here with me') - is "All you have to do is stop seeing the OM and we can become a family again."
> 
> That's it.
> 
> You do NOT hold an intervention at this point. Let the exposure do its work.
> 
> You can tell this friend your concerns, and then let her decide what to do. You have to let go of what other people do, ok?
> 
> Stand firm.
> Keep repeating your position - you have to stop seeing OM.
> Refuse to leave your home.
> Refuse to allow her to take the kids out of their home.
> Thank others for helping you if it comes up.
> Do NOT talk to her about anything but stopping the affair; tell her she can leave and continue to see him - without the kids - or she can stop it and stay at home.
> Look good; smell good; keep the house in great shape so she sees what she'll be giving up.
> Protect your finances (what's left), tell the police she may be a kidnapper, and talk to a lawyer.
> If she becomes belligerent, pack her clothes and leave them on the front porch. Check with your state on whether you can change the locks as well.
> 
> She needs a wakeup call. and she needs to realize you aren't going to let her walk all over you. If you are going to be firm one time in your life, this is the time to do it.


Ok thank you turnera! I am capable of doing all of this! And I will do it swiftly. I am going to try and make a bogus appointment tomorrow at her work, cause he is my doctor too. So I will explain to him, my wife is having an affair, I want her to stop and return to our family. He is a good man and has givin her marriage advice before, and she looks up to him and believes what he says. And I know he will have our best interest at heart. I tried to make an appointment 2 weeks ago, but they couldn't sqeeuz me in, wether my wife had something to do with that I don't know, she probably did. I will tell them it is urgent and I am in pain!!!!


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## turnera

I don't understand. You're paying for an office visit so you can ask him to call your wife and tell her to stop having an affair?


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## showtime

turnera said:


> I don't understand. You're paying for an office visit so you can ask him to call your wife and tell her to stop having an affair?


No, this is a small doctors office, he is a VERY busy man, I can't just walk up in there and demand I speak to him. And I don't have to pay for a visit, all "family visits" he writes off.


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## turnera

I don't care about the paying, I'm just asking if you're going there just so you can ask him to call her. That might be a little too invasive, even in my books.

How about you just do what we are advising you, and no more? Each time we give you steps to take, you gloss over them and come up with OTHER things you're going to do. 

Go back to Tanelorn's list, or mine, and tell us specifically how you will accomplish each item.


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## Tanelornpete

It would be all right to talk it over with the Doctor - as long as you are not doing this as vindication or punishment. If she is willing to listen to him - viewing him as wise counsel, so be it. The point of exposure is based on the idea that an affair is an illicit relationship, based upon faulty foundations. Exposure reveals the flaws. Part of the appeal of an affair is the 'secret' - when the secret is gone, the affair must establish itself in broad daylight - and pretty soon the flaws in each partner begin to become apparent - things that were hidden with the rest of the secret.

My biggest concern is that you are still under the impression that if you do 'x,' 'y' and 'z' that you will be able to MAKE her stop, and MAKE her love you again (she most likely still has some love for you). She is the only one who can 'make' her do those things. Your job is to reveal the affair, let people see it's ugly little secrets, and at the same time, reveal what a wonderful place she has at home.


----------



## Affaircare

showtime said:


> ...I am going to try and make a *bogus* appointment tomorrow at her work, cause he is my doctor too. So I will explain to him,* my wife is having an affair, I want her to stop and return to our family.* He is a good man and has givin her marriage advice before, and she looks up to him and believes what he says. And *I know he will have our best interest at heart*.


Sooooooo...your plan is to lie your way into the Doctor's office so you can manipulate the Doctor into telling your wife she has to return to her family? Showtime, seriously do you not see how often you try to "make her" or "force her" to do what YOU want without any regard whatsoever for what she wants? I have no doubt that this is one of the MAJOR Love Extinguishers in your marriage--she doesn't even exist at all. It's all about you and what you want and how you can manipulate things to get it YOUR WAY! 

If you were to meet with the Doctor, to expose the affair to the Doctor, the reason is this: that the business is putting itself at risk for a sexual harassment lawsuit; that business resources are being used to further sexual contact; and that productivity is being greatly reduced in an attempt to maintain an unwanted sexual advance (as her spouse, it is unwanted by you). She is putting the Doctor, the business, and his office in danger by her choices and behavior, and the Doctor needs to be aware of this so he/she can protect himself/herself. 

This will simultaneous bring light to the affair that it is NOT some amazing "love story" but a dangerous, harmful, costly thing. The more your wife can figure out ON HER OWN, that her affair is costly and hurts her, it will be helpful. See, in her affairland fantasy it goes something like this: "_I was lonely in my marriage and he was neglecting me and controlling....but the OM will spend time with me, pay attention, be affectionate, and let me be who I am. I can divorce hubby, I get the house and kids in any divorce, I get alimony and child support, and move OM in! My family loves him cuz he's such a neat person and the kids are happy for me because someone finally loves me_." [That is the affair "fantasy"] But if she gradually becomes aware that choosing the OM she has to sell the home and not for equity, she loses half the time with the kids or more, she may lose her job, she doesn't get alimony (because she can work and provide for herself) and won't get half the CS she thought...some of the bloom is off the rose! Then OM starts getting snarky cuz he has to pay for HER now--and more bloom is off the rose. See how this goes a little? 

Soooo lying your way into the Doctor's office to GET him/her to MAKE your wife come home is not cool. Showtime you are going to have to learn how to stop trying to control your wife. Let her choose to come or go. Let her experience the consequence of either choice. Just let the Doctor know, the family know, the friends know so they can protect themselves and possibly offer you support as you go through this--and possible offer her wise council about how much this is going to hurt her.


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## showtime

I don't get it, you guys are jumping my case for the doctor thing. This guy is very busy and that's the only way to get in? 

Are you saying tell the DR. or not??!!!!


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## turnera

Oh, now I get it. This is the doctor she works for?

I thought you meant her personal doctor. THAT would have been overstepping.

That said, if this is the doctor she works for, and IF she is carrying on the affair AT WORK, then you should tell him. Maybe tell him if you think it affects his business that she did this, as in the guy might stop coming to this doctor once he's done seducing your wife. But if the affair isn't being conducted at work, I don't see the point.

And I would REALLY REALLY like you to address Tanelorn's concerns about your attempt at controlling what she does. I think it would help you greatly, if you can slow down and realize that if this is a character trait of yours, you have some work to do on YOURSELF if you want her to come back. Part of this process is improving yourself so that, if the affair stops, she looks at you and sees a better potential marriage than she had with you before.

So what do you think? Do you try to control other aspects of her life?


----------



## showtime

turnera said:


> Oh, now I get it. This is the doctor she works for?
> 
> I thought you meant her personal doctor. THAT would have been overstepping.
> 
> That said, if this is the doctor she works for, and IF she is carrying on the affair AT WORK, then you should tell him. Maybe tell him if you think it affects his business that she did this, as in the guy might stop coming to this doctor once he's done seducing your wife. But if the affair isn't being conducted at work, I don't see the point.
> 
> And I would REALLY REALLY like you to address Tanelorn's concerns about your attempt at controlling what she does. I think it would help you greatly, if you can slow down and realize that if this is a character trait of yours, you have some work to do on YOURSELF if you want her to come back. Part of this process is improving yourself so that, if the affair stops, she looks at you and sees a better potential marriage than she had with you before.
> 
> So what do you think? Do you try to control other aspects of her life?


Well originally she was texting the guy all day at work. I don't know about now.


And no I don't control her at all. It might be hard to believe viewing my posts. But I am in a way different state of mind then before all this.

So I can see how I am trying to control her now, and force her to do things. Like I said earlier, I have made some mistakes in the past couple weeks, and I am paying for it now. All I can do is push forward.

Today was weird (of course). She supposedly stayed at her friends house last night, and came over this morning to do the easter baskets for the kids. She woke them up, which I think she should have just let them sleep, and come out when they woke up on their own. But anyway, we did the easter baskets and hung out for like an hour. And I was prepared, I cleaned the house up, looked good, smelled good, all that stuff, like I have been doing since the minute this all started, and will continue to do, everyday. And then she was supposed to go to church with her friend, she ended up not going. But me and the kids went to their great grandmas house for lunch and an easter egg hunt. It was fun!!! After that we came home and she was waiting with a pan of lasagna! She said we were gonna have dinner together and hunt easter eggs in our backyard. Which I thought was cool. So were hangin out just like old times, and she starts telling me to just put the lasagna in the oven for a half hour cause she premade it at her friends house. I said, aren't you gonna stay for dinner? She said she wasn't hungry and she needed a nap. I calmly and collectively said Ok. So she hung out for another ten minutes or so and left.

Don't know if any of that is relevant, just thought you would like to see what happened when we were together?

Thanks everybody!


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## turnera

So, she just pretended you didn't just out her to her entire world of family and friends? 

Weird.


----------



## showtime

Well, my inside source tells me, she is going to confess today. She said he is pressuring her to tell me. Also my source tells me my W is going to get an apartment, and even my oldest daughter told me. She told me her mom said all of the girls were going to get an apartment, and dad wasn't going. Then she told me that she wanted to tell her mom that she wanted to stay with dad, and that she is mean, but she was afraid her mom would get mad at her!!!! Broke my heart in a million pieces!!!!! Way worse than anything her mom has ever done to me!!!!!

Anyway, she has been telling me she was staying at our mutual friends house, which I knew wasn't true and isn't. Her bubble is bursting. Our mutual friend said she won't get in the middle anymore, and she had to tell me. So what does my W do? She gets away from that situation because it was no longer a safe zone. She did tell me however that my W says it's over and she has made up her mind.

I don't see their relationship lasting much longer if there is already tension between them over me and my W. How are they going to survive the kids and visits, if it ever gets that far. And our 5 year old is a pistol!! And she loves her dad, and I know she would bust out the, "Your not my dad" talk right away! And you tell me how some 22 year old punk is gonna put up with that?

We will see if she fesses up. It's weird. It feels a little bittersweet. Part of me wants her to be honest, even though I already know. And the other part wants it to remain unsaid?? Very interesting feeling, I don't think I have ever felt that before. Tough spot, I will tell you that though. 

I can only imagine what she is thinking she will say to me. After all the lies she has told, I know she feels like she can't ever go back. Because she is lying to everybody, and covering up lies, with more lies, and even when I catch her lying over a lie, she still lies. It is almost funny when I get a phone call or text from her, to see what B.s. she comes up with next.


With all that being said, any pointers for if/when she rats herself out?


----------



## turnera

Have you gone to the lawyer yet today to ensure she doesn't take the girls from their home? 

That should be your ONLY priority today. Once they are removed from their home, she 'owns' them and you have to prove your worth to get them back.


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## turnera

> With all that being said, any pointers for if/when she rats herself out?


The ONLY thing you say is "If you want to stay married, you will give me complete access to your phone and your computer so that I can verify any time I want that you are no longer lying to me. If you don't want to stay married, you can leave, but the girls do NOT want to go with you, and I will not allow them to leave. I have contacted my lawyer, and they stay right here. It is YOUR choice whether you want to throw away our marriage and family. Do you want to hand over your phone and computer now?"


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## Affaircare

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

She will give you about half truth if that, and she will be reluctant to give you access (saying "don't you trust me?" and "how dare you invade my privacy" type things), BUT in a marriage there is privacy (that's closing the door to go to the bathroom, for modesty) and there is SECRECY and that is keeping yourself, your thoughts, your plans and your intentions SECRET from the one to whom you promised to be intimately known....your spouse. So no matter what she says, don't fall for her tears, her anger, her threats...none of it...unless she willingly allows you access. Even then she may not "like" it, she can tolerate it to put her life back onto the straight and narrow. And likewise you can extend to her (in time) your passwords and such to your email address too. My dear hubby and I deleted our separate email addresses for a time and had one: him n [email protected]!  

Let us know how it's going! And by goodness, let your daughter tell her mother!!  That would be a shock to her system!


----------



## showtime

I know exactly what you guys are saying about holding my ground, the issue is. That if we get into a tug of war with the kids, then it is war for her, I beleive she and this guy are fully commited to moving forward together. Some people I know say that he is very family oriented. Wether that matters or not. But still I do NOT want to push her too far, because she will take it to extremes if I do.

I am having a really hard time with the whole kids thing. I want them here YES, is she wrong? YES. But she is out of control and I don't want to bring this to a full on custidy battle.

What do you think will happen if I let her take the kids for a few days? Even though I know not to and that's the last thing I want to do.

But if I refuse I know she will serve me papers, and will be a full on custody battle, and will give her one more reason for her to justify her actions, and being upset with me.!!!!


----------



## Tanelornpete

Again. Talk to a lawyer NOW about your options.

And - she cannot simply move the kids onto a new family. Custody must be established first. 

Talk to a lawyer now. Now, call a lawyer, and talk to him. Now.

There really should be no problem if you let her take the kids for a few days - as long as you are both agreed to it. The trouble starts when she tries to make a new family in the middle of her present family.


----------



## losinglove

showtime said:


> Some people I know say that he is very family oriented.


Sorry, not to make light of your situation but I found this a little funny. How family oriented can he be if he is willing to break up one family so he has can act like a dad?

I agree with Affaircare, you should encourage your daughter to tell her mom she wants to stay with you.

If she is going to fight that hard you need to be able to do the same. Make your kids the priority if things are going south.


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## showtime

Ok everybody!! Tonite is the night!!!! The most important life altering night ever!!!!!!!!!

She has agreed to talk to me and figure out our next move. Wether she stays with me, or goes away and is with TOM.

She has agreed to tell me the truth (I probably won't get all of it). But I have aranged a sitter for the kids, so we can sit down and hash this out. 

I know she is on the fence about this whole deal. Even though I know she is leaning his way. Because she is caught up in all her lies, if she turns back now, she will look like a fool!!

Regardless, this evening is where I can get her back or she will go.

Any pointers to focus on, other than the obvious? (Kids, house, family, marriage)


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## Tanelornpete

> I can only imagine what she is thinking she will say to me. After all the lies she has told, I know she feels like she can't ever go back. Because she is lying to everybody, and covering up lies, with more lies, and even when I catch her lying over a lie, she still lies. It is almost funny when I get a phone call or text from her, to see what B.s. she comes up with next.
> 
> 
> With all that being said, any pointers for if/when she rats herself out?


It makes NO DIFFERENCE what she says. None at all. Your stance should be the same, regardless of her words - it is not dependent upon her - it is dependent upon you being faithful to your family. It is dependent on your commitment to the marriage. You job is simply to say, you have a home here, and when you are ready to stop your affair, you can return. Nothing else. So don't worry about this.

Worry about staying on track instead.

And re the 'Some people say he is very family oriented' - - 

Two things: One, this is the FANTASY that your wife has - and is telling to others. Two, this is part of the line he feeds your wife to get into her pants. 

Nothing more. A family 'oriented' man does not have affairs. HE does not hit on another man's wife. Period.


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## Tanelornpete

> Any pointers to focus on, other than the obvious? (Kids, house, family, marriage)


One tip: make her feel like it would be safe to return home - that you would welcome her.

My guess is that she is going to tell you how much she is in love with the Other Man, how good he is for the kids, and how she loves you but is not IN love with you. 

Stay on track. The affair needs to end before the marriage can recover, the marriage CAN recover, and she CAN get that love back. 

Stay on track.


----------



## showtime

Tanelornpete said:


> One tip: make her feel like it would be safe to return home - that you would welcome her.
> 
> My guess is that she is going to tell you how much she is in love with the Other Man, how good he is for the kids, and how she loves you but is not IN love with you.
> 
> Stay on track. The affair needs to end before the marriage can recover, the marriage CAN recover, and she CAN get that love back.
> 
> Stay on track.


I have tears in my eyes right now. This is the stuff right here!!!!


----------



## showtime

I know the family oriented thing is bogus, just thought i would point that at, it was a joke...


Lets focus.


Her bubble is bursting and she is breaking down a little. Now is my chance. And I understand I can't control her or make her do anything she doesn't want to.


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## turnera

So what did your lawyer say?


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## Affaircare

showtime said:


> Ok everybody!! Tonite is the night!!!! The most important life altering night ever!!!!!!!!!
> 
> She has agreed to talk to me and figure out our next move. Wether she stays with me, or goes away and is with TOM.


Be aware, showtime, that in Disloyal Dizziness this likely means something like, "Let's sit down and figure out how to divorce agreeably so I don't have to lose anything." I'm not saying that's absolutely going to be the way it is, but rather, please be prepared that it is very likely the way the conversation *may* turn. 

If that is the way it goes, please just keep repeating to her that she is free to go, that you and the kids will stay in the home, and that after she's settled somewhere and you've gotten advice from a lawyer on how to set it up properly, you'd be happy to let the kids visit her. Also keep repeating that if SHE wants a divorce, SHE will have to do all the work because you do not want it and you won't be assisting her in breaking up the family. 

As she brings up her accusations, gets angry, threatens, or any of that...just stay calm and basically repeat those things over and over in the most steady, dependable, loving voice you can muster. Try not to get flustered, and if you feel yourself getting flustered (where you can't think cuz you're emotions are all stirred up), call for either a break ("Let's take a 30 minute break just to calm down") or ask for  it to end and suggest a time for it to continue ("This is getting too intense to think clearly and I need to be clear-headed. I would like to stop for the night and resume tomorrow). 



> She has agreed to tell me the truth (I probably won't get all of it). But I have aranged a sitter for the kids, so we can sit down and hash this out.


Again--be ready to hear: "Our marriage has been so awful for so long, but I just didn't say anything. I don't love you and haven't for a long time. Now I love him..." My sincere prayer tonight though will be that she will once-and-for-all admit what she's done, be sorry for it, and do the right thing even if she doesn't particularly feel like doing it right this moment. In other words, that she'll honor her marriage vows and think of her children. 



> I know she is on the fence about this whole deal. Even though I know she is leaning his way. Because she is caught up in all her lies, if she turns back now, she will look like a fool!!


To a degree--and yet look at me. Do you consider me a fool for admitting the error of my ways, returning to my marriage, and making it right? Probably not. In fact, most likely you may admire someone who has the personal guts to do that. So let her know that she has a chance to save face here before it gets too bad and too ugly. Also let her know that YOU realize you played a part in killing the love in your marriage and that you're willing to hold up your end of the deal and work to make it better. 



> Regardless, this evening is where I can get her back or she will go.


Actually this is very false. This evening may be her way of giving herself the excuse to try to live the affair "in the light." What happens tonight is that she chooses whether to soften her heart and make it easy on herself, or whether to harden her heart and hurt everyone she claimed to love: you, the kids, her parents, your parents, aunts, uncles, cousins, friends, co-workers...everyone. And EVEN IF SHE CHOOSES TO GO there are still steps you can take to improve yourself and win her back. These first few steps (ask her directly and exposure) are our hope to K.O. the affair...knock it right out! But sometimes that doesn't happen, usually because the disloyal spouse is too proud. If it doesn't then it goes from the "1st round knock out fight" to the "12 round fight to the finish." There are still two steps you can take to save your marriage even if she chooses to leave. 

So nope...tonight is not the night that your marriage is saved or you divorce. Tonight is a great opportunity to save you and her a lot of heartache though!


----------



## showtime

turnera said:


> So what did your lawyer say?


She said to have mutual witnesses in the house while we talk. And to have the kids at a friends house, until a plan is figured out. Then tomorrow, whatever develops she will devise a plan, wether it's over, or we get back together.


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## turnera

Yep. Now that you have exposed the affair, she feels she has to come out with the 'truth' - she HAD to have an affair because of you. So that everyone you exposed to will accept her again. 

Tonight is NOT about you, showtime. It's about saving face. 

*Print out that statement I gave you. Keep it in your hand. READ FROM IT until she either says yes or no.*

Whatever you do, do NOT have this meeting until you have seen your lawyer and know your rights. You are such a (sorry) weak person that she is going to end up having you twisted around her finger by the time the night is over; she'll have you apologizing for pushing her into his arms, and begging her to let you pay for her new place.

ETA: to add to what the lawyer said, *DO NOT AGREE* TO ANYTHING WITHOUT DISCUSSING IT WITH YOUR LAWYER FIRST.

Who are you having over as a witness?


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## Affaircare

showtime said:


> She said to have mutual witnesses in the house while we talk. And to have the kids at a friends house, until a plan is figured out. Then tomorrow, whatever develops she will devise a plan, wether it's over, or we get back together.



YES! The first thing your wife's lawyer would tell her is to try to come up with a way to charge you with a Restraining Order. That gets you out of the house--you can't come near her, your home, or your children. So it is VITALLY IMPORTANT that you have people witness that there was no violence, no threatening, and that you remained calm and respectful. 

Also for reference sake, here is turnera's statement: 

*If you want to stay married, (I would add: I would be happy to have you and work on our marriage together.) You will give me complete access to your phone and your computer so that I can verify any time I want that you are no longer lying to me. If you don't want to stay married, you can leave, but the girls do NOT want to go with you, and I will not allow them to leave. I have contacted my lawyer, and they stay right here. It is YOUR choice whether you want to throw away our marriage and family. Do you want to hand over your phone and computer now?*


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## showtime

Ok, well nothin' to exciting happened, Long story short, I told her 2 things I needed. To stop all contact with TOM, and all her passwords!!

She is on the fence I can tell, but this dude has her so fogged over, she can't even consider me? She still claims nothing happened between them, but she did admit they have been spending time together and talking? Pfft whatever. Regardless I told her we would move forward and work through it. She pretty much said she wouldn't. 

And she had the effin nerve to ask if she could stay here tonite!!!!!! I said we would like nothing more, than if you would stay with us tonite. 

Well she left...


Also, she texted me "goodnight" a little after midnight. Luckily I got some sleep last night, and I didn't reply. And this is what she posted on her facebook wall almost an hour later...

"What's on my mind? Hmmm, a lot! So tired, can't sleep"


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## showtime

Where are my people at today?? Not a word?

Looks like it's the twelfe round knockout?


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## Tanelornpete

showtime said:


> Where are my people at today?? Not a word?
> 
> Looks like it's the twelfe round knockout?



Well, you DID say 'nothing exciting happened'...

So do you feel that you've finished your exposure stage? Of course, if she moves in with the guy, there's no real reason to expose it any more - its pretty much in the daylight as it is...

Next step takes a little longer...


----------------
Now playing: Delerium - Euphoria (Firefly)
via FoxyTunes


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## showtime

Tanelornpete said:


> Well, you DID say 'nothing exciting happened'...
> 
> So do you feel that you've finished your exposure stage? Of course, if she moves in with the guy, there's no real reason to expose it any more - its pretty much in the daylight as it is...
> 
> Next step takes a little longer...
> 
> 
> ----------------
> Now playing: Delerium - Euphoria (Firefly)
> via FoxyTunes


 Give it to me straight. I can take it.


----------



## Tanelornpete

Well, I've posted my version of it a couple of times - 

Next step: _This involves what you've already begun._ For the time being you will have to deal with your spouse being unfaithful, and hurting you nearly every day. In this step you will continue to be the person your spouse fell in love with - and grow to be more than that - someone they desire. Someone that does NOT destroy their love.

HOWEVER! This step must be temporary. No one can continue to be hurt by the careless actions of their spouse indefinitely. At some point you will lose all love for your partner altogether - something you don't want to do. Set yourself a time limit. Stick by that limit.

There are two reasons for this step: one reason is that you will leave a lasting impression on your spouse about the person they were harming. The other reason is that you can face the next step with grace - knowing that you did all you really could.

It is quite possible during this step that your spouse will begin to fall in love with you again. That's the whole purpose of this step - to rekindle the love you once had, an to build on that.

If, however, your spouse continues in the affair, and the end of your preset time allotment comes - your must move to the next step...​
Others can add their own addenda - basically, work on getting over anything you do that has helped create the situation in which you find yourself. Add to that building up the habit of doing things that your wife finds desirable. 

----------------
Now playing: Cream - Sleepy Time Time
via FoxyTunes


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## Affaircare

showtime said:


> Ok, well nothin' to exciting happened, Long story short, I told her 2 things I needed. To stop all contact with TOM, and all her passwords!!


GOOD JOB! You stayed on track, didn't let your emotions shake you, made requests---wow excellent. I'm very proud of you. And you did remember the two main things. Seriously--very good job!



> She is on the fence I can tell, but this dude has her so fogged over, she can't even consider me? She still claims nothing happened between them, but she did admit they have been spending time together and talking?


Speaking as someone who's been in her shoes, I need to sort of warn you of something. She may be addicted to the way this feels and that good "love-zing" feeling and whatnot, but it's not like he's Snidely Whiplash and she's the innocent and beautiful Nell Fenwick (obscure Rocky & Bullwinkle reference) being taken advantage of by Snidely. My point is that although she may have muddled, foggy, dizzy logic, she *IS* still and adult and still responsible for her choices. She chose to keep pursuing this beyond appropriate, and although it is a slippery slope, she could have chosen to stop and honor her vows to you. Thus, don't blame him and hold her blameless--she has some accountability.

Finally you know how she says nothing happened between them and they spend time together and talk? People do not give up their home, family and children for just no reason. If it were really true that "nothing happened" then she'd say "Well I'm not losing my home and kids over nothing!" even if she were really sick of you! Know what I mean? They may not have had sex--but for sure SOMETHING has happened!! 



> Regardless I told her we would move forward and work through it. She pretty much said she wouldn't.


 If it were me, I would start working on myself as Tanelorn has suggested, and start figuring out (as best as you can) the things that helped extinguish the love between you two...but also keep hammering home this message to her. Make sure she knows and hears over and over that she can choose to stop, that you'll be there to help her through it, that you know she'll feel sad and miss him for a bit but that you two made a promise to each other and you have set in your heart to honor that promise as best as you can. The more you work on yourself and improve (the carrot) and the more the affair comes to real life and isn't all that great (the stick) , the more she'll think about coming home and she REALLY needs to know it's safe to come home. 

Now I realize this can't go on forever with her gallivanting around having an affair...but for now that it has a very good chance. Also, if she has not already rented a place, you MAY want to suggest the option of living in the "guest bedroom" to conserve finances and allow her to see the kids more. Okay...it's not ideal but she would be home (rather than with him) and it would give you more opportunities to win her back than if she moved out. Just an OPTION!



> And she had the effin nerve to ask if she could stay here tonite!!!!!! I said we would like nothing more, than if you would stay with us tonite. Well she left... Also, she texted me "goodnight" a little after midnight. Luckily I got some sleep last night, and I didn't reply. And this is what she posted on her facebook wall almost an hour later... "What's on my mind? Hmmm, a lot! So tired, can't sleep"


 Yeah I'm sorry she's like this. I sure pray she gets guided through this affair soon as I know this feels awfully cold, doesn't it? But do your best, Showtime: be a lighthouse showing her the way back. Also continue to stay on track: protect yourself and your kids, let her go if she wants to go, work on making yourself a better man and husband and father, and keep repeating that when she's ready to end all contact with OM and let you verify it...you would be thrilled to have her back. 

(P.S. When or if the day comes that she does come back, we can work on the marriage and forgiving her and stuff then okay? )


----------



## showtime

I know I can do these things^^^^. The hardest pert for me, is that she is choosing him over me? It all hurts so bad, and I am figuring out how to control these emotions when they flood over me. It is like my heart has a deisel truck hooked to it and she is flooring it. And there is nothing I can do except be nice?

She explains that the reason she is moving out, is because she wats some "me" time to think about things and figure out what she wants. I know this is rediculous. And TOM has everything to do with it. She also says that TOM had nothing to do with our relationship "ending" so to speak. This stuff makes me so mad and frustrated. She has me over a barrel and she knows it.

To top it all off, TOM is leaving for the military in May.

I am torn, my heart wants to just give up, it has been torn in two, and seems almost not reapairable at times. 

I am going to hang in here as long as I can. Which honestly doesn't seem like very much longer.


----------



## Tanelornpete

> The hardest pert for me, is that she is choosing him over me? It all hurts so bad, and I am figuring out how to control these emotions when they flood over me. It is like my heart has a deisel truck hooked to it and she is flooring it. And there is nothing I can do except be nice?


What you need to control is what you do when you experience the emotions. You can't control emotions - they happen. You experience them. But then you ACT based upon how you feel at the moment. THAT is what you need to learn to control - and a way to do that is to ask yourself 'what am I feeling?' - when you answer that, ask 'why am I feeling this?' and then 'what should I do right now?' 

Because you take the time to ask yourself this - you have taken a few seconds during which time you have done something beyond reacting - and have given yourself time to think of something else...


----------



## turnera

Nothing to add except that if you do tell her she can move into the spare bedroom, make sure you make it clear that will only be acceptable IF she is NOT using your home to contact other men. Having her at home allows you to show her what she'd be giving up, called Plan A at marriagebuilders.com. BUT if you let her home and still let her text, call, and email other men from there, it makes you look like a schmuck. And women can't love men they don't respect. So be careful if this conversation comes up.


----------



## Affaircare

showtime said:


> I know I can do these things^^^^. The hardest pert for me, is that she is choosing him over me? It all hurts so bad, and I am figuring out how to control these emotions when they flood over me. It is like my heart has a deisel truck hooked to it and she is flooring it. And there is nothing I can do except be nice?


NOTE TO SELF: When my first husband cheated on me and left to live with his mistress in another state, I cried for three days straight. Not "on and off" for three days... I mean 24 hours a day for three days I cried until my eyes swelled shut and my nose was raw from blowing my nose and wiping with tissues. That was not my best moment. But it felt like I had a giant hole in my body where my heart should be...and if you wanted you could have walked right through it. So showtime, I know what you mean in ways that I would not wish on my enemies. 

Maybe it would help to remind yourself that she's not picking another man over you. It's not like two equal guys, standing side-by-side and she's picking one. This is more like an addict comparing "The guy who gives me my drug" to "The guy who is trying to take it away." Thus as an addict of course she's going to temporarily pick her dealer! 



> She explains that the reason she is moving out, is because she wats some "me" time to think about things and figure out what she wants. I know this is rediculous. And TOM has everything to do with it. She also says that TOM had nothing to do with our relationship "ending" so to speak. This stuff makes me so mad and frustrated. She has me over a barrel and she knows it.


Again it may help you to remind yourself that when the affair is all said and done you will be the one in the position to decide what happens. In most societies, the one who is adulterous is not the one who decides if the marriage continues, and the one who's spouse cheated is the one who has ever moral and legal right to walk away. If anyone has anyone, you have her over a barrel by staying in the home, parenting the children, and not letting her affair be a fun little secret. 

And I am glad you see through her claim to need "Me time" so she can "think things through" and that "TOM has nothing to do with it." :lol: Yeah...RIGHT!  Man I will admit that at times the Disloyal Dizziness is almost humorous. When a disloyal spouse makes these kinds of OBVIOUS silly statements (those ones that make you shake your head and go, "UMMM HUH?") I find it's somewhat fog clearing to agree and turn it back to them. "You're right I do need some ME time to decide if I'm going to accept someone back who is willing to betray me. TOM has nothing to do with the way my own wife is treating me"... then just don't say anything or walk off. 



> To top it all off, TOM is leaving for the military in May.


Well if he's gone and can't get on to pile on Love Kindlers, the affair will die faster. That's sort of good news. OTOH she can keep it in fantasy land longer because he won't be there to really make it look worse .



> I am torn, my heart wants to just give up, it has been torn in two, and seems almost not reapairable at times.
> 
> I am going to hang in here as long as I can. Which honestly doesn't seem like very much longer.


I understand how you feel, Showtime, and I would suggest to you that you envision more like a long-distance race than a sprint. Pace yourself a little. Be kind to yourself. Some days, if she moves out and you don't feel like you have it in you to deal with her shenanigans, just turn your phones off and have a quiet day. There's nothing wrong with you doing what you have to do for yourself--you know? So do your best...then rest...do your best...then rest. You can do it! And you're not alone.


----------



## showtime

Well everybody, my inside source helped me catch them at dinner!!

So I found out where they were, of course they went out of town. So I dropped the kids of with one of our real good friends. I grabbed a witness, and we headed out. I thought of all kinds of things I was gonna do. But I never thought of fighting or anything like that. I have kids, and they are the ultimate goal!!

So anyway, I decided I would just go in and take a picture with my phone!! So I told the lady we were meeting some friends, spotted them, walked up to them and didn't say a word, I waited for her to look at me and take the picture, he was looking down at the table, like a little B he is!!!! So I took the pic and gave them the thumbs up and left. Didn't say one word. She had all kinds of threats through text message, because I didn't answer the phone after she called right away. So anyway things are calm, she came home we kind of talked for a few minutes. And I could tell it was just me and her again, nobody else. Because before it was like I wasn't even talking to her. So she cried a little and told me she loved me yadayadyad. Well she left and I'm sure she feels like crap now!!

So we will see what she acts like now??


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## Affaircare

Showtime~

I'm just going to give you my gut reaction okay? This isn't wisdom or anything, just my reaction one human being to another--got it? 

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Okay....THAT was good. I mean you got your point across, caught them "in the act" so to speak, had a witness both to your good behavior and her threats via text, and ... broke up an affair evening. 

I'll wait for Tanelorn to be wise. Me? I'm :lol:


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## Tanelornpete

May I make a suggestion?

(BTW - good job - you have a very good chance at recovery right now.)

If I were you, I'd feel very angry. Go ahead and feel that. Don't act on it. Right now, she is feeling scared, lost, angry, sad, and embarrassed. Let her - don't do anything else tonight.

Next time you talk to her, repeat what you've been saying all along - that you love her, that you are her best friend, that you want to work things out. Also reiterate that in order for this to happen, she will have to give you complete openness and honesty, clearance to all her email, phone records, etc.

And be patient, firm, loving, strong - and calm. As long as you remain consistent, loving and present, she will begin to see you truly. The fog will lift. The fantasy is going to dissipate. 

Maintain your course - work on you. Don't expect miracles over the next few days, but also don't neglect to press your advantage. EVERY time you talk to her, remind her of what we've said - what Turnera gave you to say. Make it a 'mantra' - so that she has it memorized, if necessary.

And be the man she wants.

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Now playing: Crosby And Nash - Shining On Your Dreams
via FoxyTunes


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## showtime

Well thanks everybody. But I will admit, it does feel bittersweet. I know right now I feel pretty good about it. But I know when I settle down a bit, it will all start to sink in, and it will hurt like heck!!!!

I'm not looking forward to that, and I do have a history of dwelling on things.

She tried to justify her actions by saying "you knew it was over" and junk like that.


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## showtime

Turnera? where you at?? Let's hear the stern voice of reason.


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## showtime

One more thing I should ad, Last night she was supposed to confess everything!!!! Obviously she didn't. That was what my inside source was telling me. So tonite when my "mole" called and said they were at dinner. The "mole" asked me what my W said last night. I said, barely anything, she swared they never did anything and stuff like that. My W told the "mole" that she told me EVERYTHING. 

With that being said, I am sure that she told TOM this as well. Because I heard he was pressuring her to end it with me. So when I pulled in there tonite and took the picture. I am sure he was looking at her like WTF? So I wonder how there conversations are going tonite? I am half tempted to call TOM and tell him whats been going on. She is going to lie to her H of 6 years, why wouldn't she lie to TOM, who she barely knows??


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## showtime

Well it all seems like it is spinning out of control now!!! She has a very significant ringtone now. "I was already gone" "I was already gone"???? And our friend has told me this morning, that she is still dead set on him, and he is promising her the world. And that is what she needed was for me to catch her and justify her and now she feels like its out in the open. So she is fine with it??!!!!!

What now?


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## turnera

So have you emailed this picture to her parents and siblings and best friends yet?

Why not?


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## showtime

turnera said:


> So have you emailed this picture to her parents and siblings and best friends yet?
> 
> Why not?


Yeah I have!


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## turnera

The reason you expose is to tell everyone the truth BEFORE she starts saying crap like 'it was already over' so that, when she does say that - and they all do - she looks like an idiot. If she tells everyone it was already over BEFORE you expose, YOU look like an idiot.

What exposure are you doing today?


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## showtime

turnera said:


> The reason you expose is to tell everyone the truth BEFORE she starts saying crap like 'it was already over' so that, when she does say that - and they all do - she looks like an idiot. If she tells everyone it was already over BEFORE you expose, YOU look like an idiot.
> 
> What exposure are you doing today?


 Well I am going to call everyone again.

Anymore suggestions?!!


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## turnera

No. Here is where you expose and sit back and see if it helps. If it doesn't, then you prepare yourself for the possibility that she moves on. Above all, do NOT let her take your children out of the house. Get your finances in order so she can't drain the bank account, get your lawyer to draw up paperwork in case she leaves for good, talk to your kids' schools and let them know she is not to take them out of school without your permission, let family and friends know this is your last ditch effort to save your marriage and any help getting her to end the affair is appreciated. 

Do some thinking about how long you can go on like this, and give yourself a mental cutoff date for when you will move forward with separation papers. That helps you keep from begging her to come back against your better judgment, which would be a disaster.

What are you telling your kids? How old are they?


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## showtime

So my mom talked to TOMs aunt this morning. His aunt said that my W has been tilling TOM, we are already divorced, I am a terrible father and everything else!!!!!!!!!

And TOM lives with his aunt and is like her mother. And his aunt is VERY good friends with my mom. So TOMs aunt is going over to my moms work in a little bit to talk things over with my mom!!!! We will see how that plays out.

She is going to be upset when she finds out for sure. I gotta figure out what the best move is after this comes out. Because when TOMs aunt tells him, he will call my W!!!!!!


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## turnera

What are you doing to address any issues your wife may have with you? If she can blame things on you, you'd better be working on those issues.


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## Affaircare

showtime~

To some degree don't we always tell you to settle down, relax, breathe and not let your emotions get ahead of you? I would recommend that again. Let your mom and his aunt meet. It is "to be expected" that the two involved in an affair would lie, even to each other. It's part of how they justify doing what they know is wrong. So regarding her lies, seriously don't worry about that too much. Your mom knows you have your faults but she also knows you've been married all along, you're a great and caring dad, and that up until about (hmmm...) the time those two met you two were relatively happy. Now is the time to let some of the exposure you've done do it's work. So, let that happen. 

WHILE it is happening, I would suggest taking this Jung Myers-Briggs Personality Test so you can learn even a little bit more about YOU. This is a relatively short test and you will find out some of your personal strengths and weaknesses. This would be a good time to begin working on you and being the man, husband and father you have the potential to be. 

Top priority #1: make sure your children are secure. I would suggest talking to your lawyer (even by phone would be fine just to get some suggestions), talking to the school, within some degree even talking to the kids to make sure she doesn't try to go get them at school. Just be positive they are safe at home. 

Also today would be an EXCELLENT day to be sure your finances are secure and not mess with hers ONE BIT. Gather together any household bills you have and be sure they have been paid and start to figure out a calendar when to pay which bills. Don't be surprised to discover that you're behind on some as it's conceivable she didn't pay a bill and kept the money instead.


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## sidewayz

Hi Showtime...i know that I am getting on the tail end of this post, but would like to share with you what I have experienced. I am the wife that was having a 7 month affair. The difference is that we got caught, he was married to a good friend of mine and he was also friends of my husbands. To say the least, I am definately not proud of it at all and feel very guilty. I moved out of the house that night and that was Jan 12, 2010. Since then, me and TOM have ended it and have no contact with each other. But I can tell you that bugging, hounding, texting, calling, threatening does not help. He has done that for the last 3 months and it does nothing but push me away. The problem now is that he will go 2-3 days without doing it, leads me to believe it has changed and it happens again. Now, he is begging and pleading that I come back home to work it out...and i have a fear that I am resenting it because its not what I wanted, but giving in to my guilty feelings and don't want to hurt him. I am there, but can honestly say that I am not there. I have been more content by myself, but he has pushed me there. You may say that you aren't controlling, but we on the other side see it as that. The times that he didn't call me and the times that he went out with his friends are the times I was wondering what he was doing and wondering what I was missing, but he messed it up by being mean and calling me names and putting the kids in the middle. I probably would have wanted to come back by now if he had truly seperated himself from me, but by doing the things to me that was the reasons I am here today is not what I need or want. He has yet to let go and I continue to let it happen. I can tell you from this side, let her go....move on...do as they say...be nice when she calls, be nice when she comes and get the kids...don't call her...don't text herr unless its for the kids....don't push sex on her. If you do these things, it will more than likely work in the end....rather then if you push her into a corner. She has to figure out what life is without you and can't do that as long as she is in it with him. So until she ends it...there is nothing you can do to stop it or change her feelings so stop putting yourself through it. It will be easier on you if you pull away. As far as the kids go...don't threaten anything with them. That will push her to go to the lawyer. If he would have tried to keep them from me, I would have headed straight to the lawyer and draw up temporary papers to grant me my rights. Which she will get if she is not into drugs or considered a bad mother. In my state, the affair doesn't matter....as long as you werent having sex in front of the kids. Not sure how it works in your state. Hope this helps a little and Good luck. It will all work out for the best. Im firm believer in everything happens for a reason. And this might be a reason to better your marriage...but its going to take a LOT of patience and time.


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## Feelingalone

Showtime,

Listen to Affaircare and Tanelornpete, they speak the truth and are doing it for all the right reasons -- to pay it forward for what they've learned.

I'm the poster child for how to do wrong -- or at least I was. You need to be a man again. Meaning being in control of himself and his environment. You need to be the calm in the storm in your marriage. Especially for your children. 

As AC and TP have said, this isn't and won't be an overnight journey. You need to dig deep into yourself and look into the mirror. Do you like what you see today? You need to change. Yes what your w is doing is wrong, but you can control only you and that is it. Just know that in digging deep within yourself you might find things about yourself that bring about pain. Just confront it, and pass through it. This is a process and not a race.

I wish you well in your journey.

Peace.


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## showtime

I jsut got done talking TOMs aunt face to face. Of course my W has been lying to both of us. Stringing me and TOM along. It is all about to blow up in my W face!!!!

She has been making me out to be some sort of a monster to Toms family, I am terrible to the children, never bring home any money, stuff like this. So it is about to go down for her...

We'll see what happens. These poor kids don't even know what they were born into. I feel so bad for them!!!!

Thank you everybody!


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## Tanelornpete

showtime said:


> I jsut got done talking TOMs aunt face to face. Of course my W has been lying to both of us. Stringing me and TOM along. It is all about to blow up in my W face!!!!
> 
> She has been making me out to be some sort of a monster to Toms family, I am terrible to the children, never bring home any money, stuff like this. So it is about to go down for her...
> 
> We'll see what happens. These poor kids don't even know what they were born into. I feel so bad for them!!!!!


First, this is pretty much the norm for any Disloyal Spouse - when we call it a fantasy, this is one of the reasons. The Disloyal Spouse reinvents reality. I think a large part of it is to justify to themselves that what they are doing is necessary. Another part of it is due to the fact that they have been concentrating on the things in their marriage that have been destroying their love. 

On top of that, it is a way to show the Other Person what it is that they want out of the relationship - by focusing on your negatives and magnifying them, they guide the Other Person into filling the needs they want filled.

This is one of the reasons an affair works best when it is hidden. Once it comes to light, all of the facts that have been twisted, created, magnified, etc., start revealing themselves - and the relationship becomes much harder to carry on.

Take note of the things she DID use against you. My guess is that there is an element of truth to them - these are places you probably need to work on. If you look back over the Love Busters traits that you looked at earlier, you might be able to better determine what she may be looking for.

Yes - it most likely will blow up in her face. But remember that she will feel lost, embarrassed, afraid and probably not a little angry at you for 'causing' all this trouble. Keep calm, stay focused, and allow her to work through these emotions. The time to focus on the reality of the situation comes when the dust of the affair has settled, when the 'drug' wears off, and the hangover is gone. 

Right now, just work on you. Don't act in anger toward her - you can be reasonable and calm and still always do the right thing. Just make sure you are aware of what the right thing is - and then work at that...

As for your kids - this is not necessarily a bad thing. If your marriage does recover, you will be in a huge position to teach them the meaning of commitment, what love really is, how to forgive, etc...

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Now playing: Rage Against the Machine - Bombtrack
via FoxyTunes


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## showtime

Thanks everybody. Send a prayer my way, I'm going to need it tonite!


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## turnera

So...what are you going to say? What are you going to repeat, no matter what she throws at you?


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## showtime

This!...

If you want to stay married, (I would add: I would be happy to have you and work on our marriage together.) You will give me complete access to your phone and your computer so that I can verify any time I want that you are no longer lying to me. If you don't want to stay married, you can leave, but the girls do NOT want to go with you, and I will not allow them to leave. I have contacted my lawyer, and they stay right here. It is YOUR choice whether you want to throw away our marriage and family. Do you want to hand over your phone and computer now? 
__________________

But after all I found out today, talking to TOMS Aunt, I'm not so sure I want her back. This affair has gone way deeper than I originally thought. So much damage to the heart.


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## Tanelornpete

> But after all I found out today, talking to TOMS Aunt, I'm not so sure I want her back. This affair has gone way deeper than I originally thought. So much damage to the heart.


May I point out that your wife's behavior is not unique? It almost perfectly 'the norm' - what you'd expect from a Wandering Spouse. This is part of the pain that you must face - and decide rationally if you would like to work on your marriage - if given the chance. 

This is an instance where you must work through your plans without emotional input. Again - relying on those emotions to make your decisions for you will end up with you begging her to stay one day, ordering her to leave the next, crying one minute, throwing axes the next...


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## showtime

Tanelornpete said:


> May I point out that your wife's behavior is not unique? It almost perfectly 'the norm' - what you'd expect from a Wandering Spouse. This is part of the pain that you must face - and decide rationally if you would like to work on your marriage - if given the chance.
> 
> This is an instance where you must work through your plans without emotional input. Again - relying on those emotions to make your decisions for you will end up with you begging her to stay one day, ordering her to leave the next, crying one minute, throwing axes the next...


I know, she has lied to so many close friends and family, and even Toms Aunt is a good friend of my moms. Everybody has almost wrote my W off!! 

I mean, what does that say about me? We live in a fairly small town.


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## showtime

Also, today my W said she was going over to our friends house to do laundry. Well she texted me 10 minutes later and said my W and the kids and Tom were going out of town for lunch and to visit a hunting store. And convieniently she had bought a fshing liscense from my good friends brother a few weeks ago? She never wanted to go fishing, said she always hated it!!! 

I hate this, the kids with TOM, I don't even know or trust this guy. And I just gotta take it on the chin??!!!!


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## turnera

Here's the thing to remember, if she's feeling ashamed and defiant, as in 'everyone in town knows what I did so I have no way out' - you can offer her a way out of this mess. You can tell her that you will walk that path WITH her, keep her by your side and protect her and defend her...IF she comes to you and everyone else in humility and admits she made a mistake. Remind her that people WILL forgive her for a mistake, IF she apologizes. Once she does that, they will say 'that's ok, it's all right now' and welcome her back. 

Waywards often feel trapped once they have gone down that slippery slope, and fear that everyone will hate her. Let her know you'll be there for her. But only if she agrees to what YOU need.


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## turnera

Wait a minute. What is your situation with the kids? 

Have you talked to your lawyer about whether she can have them around TOM?


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## showtime

turnera said:


> Wait a minute. What is your situation with the kids?
> 
> Have you talked to your lawyer about whether she can have them around TOM?


No we didn't discuss that part.... I will call back first thing tomorrow.... DANG!!


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## Tanelornpete

Wait - don't jump the gun! Unless you've filed for custody or the Other Man is a convicted pedophile you really have no control over whether your kids see him or not! The MOST you can do is try to work out some sort of arrangement with your wife where they stay with you when she's with him - but that is between you two! The law won't step in and say 'hey, you are committing adultery - woman, you can't have your kids around when you are acting so sinfully!' 

Don't get caught up in battles you can't win! You can solve this in other ways.


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## Affaircare

Hey Showtime~

*Quick note*: At this time there is no custody agreement in place. She is their equal parent just as much as you are. So at this time there is nothing that says legally that she can not take the kids fishing with "some other person." 

Furthermore, when there is a custody order in place--even for legal separation--you will not be able to dictate who your wife is with or who your children are with when they are with their mother. I'll look at MY OWN divorce parenting plan and type for you what my no-fault divorce said, but you guys aren't even legally separated much less divorced. 

My point is twofold: 

A) You will not get a court or police or someone to "tell her" she can't take the kids around the OM...so putting money and energy into that will be a waste of time. Irritating? YES! Realistic? No.  

B) You don't need to just "take it on the chin." I would suggest a more profitable way of using your energy would be to talk to your wife directly and say, "I can not stop you from doing whatever you are determined to do with TOM but I am going to ask that you not involve our children with adultery." Ask her RIGHT OUT not to do it, and call it by it's name: adultery.

Then go to the nearest office supply store, tonight, and start a calendar. If it is ever needed, a daily calendar noting things she's done AS THEY OCCUR that are not in the children's best interests will be admissible in a custody case. It will show a clear pattern if instability, selfishness, even putting them at risk...IF NEED BE. So in last night, use FACTS and write: "Spoke with W. Asked her to end A and have no contact with OM. She left." "Found out W was with OM after lying she was with friends. Took photo of them together and waved hello. Took a witness." Today: "OM's aunt is my mom's friend so they met and compared notes. W is lying to OM about her marital status." "W lied and told me she was taking kids to friends' to do laundry; she actually took them fishing with OM" "Spoke with W and clearly asked her not to involve OM with kids when we are still married." This is to record facts only. Get it?

Unlike chasing a lawyer and spending hundreds on something that can't be done, getting the calendar is profitable and may help if it comes to that.


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## showtime

Excellent idea Affaircare!!

Also I am saving all my text messages from her, and they are very explicit. And I have mine that I replied, to her irratic behavior, which of course are all very calm and rational.


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## showtime

I want to post their picture on facebook sooo bad.. And put "Here is my Wife and her boyfriend, she was supposed to be tanning?"

Or something like this, that's some exposure right there.

Also TOMS Aunt is telling me that my W is telling him we are already divorced, and she is lyin to him just as much as everybody else?

I haven't heard anything yet, TOMS Aunt was NOT happy with either of them, and was supposed to talk to him tonite...


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## Affaircare

Again, Showtime, use your time productively and not on silly high school stuff. Turn off FB if you have to otherwise you'll be tempted...just be the bigger man and walk away. (But do save that photo!) Let the OM's aunt do what she's gonna do, and give it some time. Sorry--it's not being fixed tonight, so work on what you CAN accomplish tonight.

I would say tonight is a good night for getting that calendar, writing the last few days "activities/facts" in, noting the date you bought it, etc. Also did you do that personality quiz yet? Are you an introvert or an extrovert? Thinker or Feeler? Inquiring minds WANT TO KNOW!!


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## showtime

Thanks for trying to keep me focused. I feel so drained by all of this, physically, mentally, and emotionally. 

You are:
slightly expressed introvert

slightly expressed sensing personality

moderately expressed feeling personality

moderately expressed judging personality


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## showtime

Well she tried to call me up last night at like 11:30. I wouldn't answer because I knew why she was calling. And she called me a bunch, like 10 times a minute. So she left me a meassage. Said we need to talk right now!!!! I'm coming over, you better open the door, or els I am going to beat on the windows until you get up!!!


So I got up and answer the door. I could tell she was a different kind of upset. Not the usual mad at H upset. So went went downstairs because the kids were sleeping in bed.

Got down stairs, and she starts jumpin' me about how everyone is lying to her, TOM is lying to her, TOMs Aunt is lying to her, my mom was telling TOMs Aunt things that weren't true. All this kind of stuff.

I could tell something wasn't right about this time she was yelling at me. Becasue she had the whoa is me talk you know. She was threatening all kinds of things. And thinks me and my mom are plotting to take the kids away from her and all kinds of crazy stuff like that. My W also said, that the kids mean everything to her, and that's all she has left, and if you take those kids away from me...

I said if they mean so much to you, why you running arround with TOM, when you could be spending time with them!!!! She said...Oh that one time I go to dinner and I am a bad mom!! HAHAHA......

Also here is her FB post early this morning... My heart hurts so bad.. I have never felt this way-wish I could take a rolaid and it would be all better.

And she has posted comments on a couple of his photo's, to the tune of I LOVE YOU!!


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## showtime

And she just came over here wanting me to sign some papers so I couldn't take the kids from her? I told her no! I don't know exactly what TOM told her last night. But I know TOM is just a kid, and she can reel him back in with her lies, and other favors I'm sure... Hopefully this will stick, and she will start to come around?


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## turnera

Sorry to get everyone in a lather about the kids last night, as I couldn't come back. I was going to ask you if the kids were staying with her wherever she is. As we had told you to tell her they could not live anywhere else. I wanted to know if you were letting them sleep somewhere else. Because if you are, you are setting a precedent...i.e. she can say THAT is their new home. Taking them somewhere for the day, you can't do anything about that. But do whatever you can to NOT let them sleep anywhere else.

Her fantasy is falling down around her feet, showtime, and she's falling into the pit she created, and scrambling for every root she can reach to keep from falling into it. Just pull back, don't say anything she can use in court against you, if it goes that far. 

Now's the time to wait it out. Keep everyone informed, if they want to be. The more you're talking to family and friends the less she can bend their ear and get their support for her affair. 

Try to have someone around you all the time, as she is likely to get more desperate and you need to protect yourself legally. This won't last forever, so just hunker down and wait it out. Make sure you're documenting everything. IF she tries to threaten you, just calmly tell her that you are documenting everything, so any authorities are going to see her actions for what they are, including the lies she's been telling everyone. She needs to see that her fantasy of replacing you with TOM are just that - a fantasy.


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## turnera

I'm glad you know not to sign anything! EVER!


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## kenmoore14217

You're going to need a lawyer even if you two don't split, I guarantee she is looking into it if she hasn't got one already. Lawyers keep everything clean so to speak. Once you dive into these waters unprepared, which seems you are, you are screwed! To protect you and the kids get representation!


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## turnera

What does your notebook look like? The one you're keeping all the evidence in?


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## Tanelornpete

kenmoore14217 said:


> You're going to need a lawyer even if you two don't split, I guarantee she is looking into it if she hasn't got one already. Lawyers keep everything clean so to speak.


I agree - this sounds like she at least has spoken with a lawyer...


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## Tanelornpete

Right now, she is in hysterical mode - all kinds of bad feelings, frightened, embarrassed, mad at being caught. Her fantasy is starting to crumble, and she feels like there is no place to turn. 

This is where you have to be her place to turn. 

She probably has spoken to a lawyer - especially if she feels that everyone has turned 'against' her (the Other Man is 'lying' to her? No kidding!) The attorney is probably advising her to cover her options - including keep a notebook record of all your outbursts of anger, the way you 'make things dangerous' for her, etc. Keep that in mind every time you speak with her!

And stay on track - you love her, want her home with her family and working on fixing the troubles in your marriage. Remind her (at appropriate times) that it will require honesty and openness on her part. Don't express the emotions you feel - be calm and open. Be her friend - someone who is there for her when things get rough. 

At the same time, don't give in to her demands (without considering what she is asking carefully.) And don't try to defend your relatives, etc - let them speak for themselves. 

Keep that notebook!


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## showtime

Well, I talked to her at lunch time. She is saying it is getting ugly. I agreed. Also my W said that TOMs aunt is going to kick him out of her house if he continues to see her. And asked my W to move into her apartment with her. 
My W is also saying to call TOM and figure out who is telling the truth. I have his number, and wouldn't mind calling.

And my W also said if I want her back, this is the wrong way to go about it. She said the best thing for me to do is, do the same thing she has been doing to me. But that would just egg her on, and justify her actions even more.

I don't know what to do here, I am at a loss, it just seems like it is getting worse everyday?


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## Tanelornpete

> I don't know what to do here, I am at a loss, it just seems like it is getting worse everyday?


First off, all that is going on right now - you should expect! It seems to me that things are getting better. As we've pointed out several times, an affair is like an addiction. Your wife has had the drug pulled away from her, and she is going through a withdrawal period. When an addict goes through withdrawals, they do and say things that are not only abnormal and out of character, but also make no sense. 

You job is to be strong for her right now. Not offensive. Strong. Be there for her, let her say whatever she wants to you - she needs to vent. At the same time, keep letting her know you love her, are her best friend, and want her back.

Now for some puzzling stuff....



> ...my W said that TOMs aunt is going to kick him out of her house if he continues to see her. And asked my W to move into her apartment with her.


The Other Man's aunt wants your wife to move in with her? Under no circumstances! Let your wife know you think that's a very bad idea. She probably thinks its kind of strange anyway. 

This is a bad idea because one of the stipulations you must hold is NO CONTACT with the Other Man - ever. Living with his aunt is a form of contact. 



> My W is also saying to call TOM and figure out who is telling the truth. I have his number, and wouldn't mind calling.


I advise against this at all costs. If you do speak to the Other Man, all you need to say to him is that you love your wife, and want to work on your marriage, and that you request that he leave her alone. Go no further than that. No other discussion.



> And my W also said if I want her back, this is the wrong way to go about it. She said the best thing for me to do is, do the same thing she has been doing to me. But that would just egg her on, and justify her actions even more.


This is an opportunity for you to communicate with your wife. She is babbling (normal foggy behavior) - but this is a good way to get some clear thinking inserted into her confusion. When she says the best thing to do is to do things the way she has done to you, ask her what she means by that - what things has she done?

Do things the way she has? What things has she done to get you back into the marriage? She wants you to have an affair? That's what she has done... Lie to her? She did that to you...

You already know what to do - just stay on track...

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Now playing: Phish - Limb By Limb
via FoxyTunes


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## turnera

You know EXACTLY what you need - 
(1) Your wife to stop seeing OM
(2) Your wife to move back home
(3) Your wife to give you access to all her passwords, phones, etc. so that you can verify she is not contacting OM

That's it.

Don't waste time talking about ANYTHING ELSE.

Print it out and hand it to her if you have to.

"This is all I want at this point. You can come back home whenever you want, as long as you stop your adultery."

showtime, you seem to have trouble with letting people sway you by their words. Why don't you print this out for YOU, so you can use it like a cheat sheet, every time she tries to sway you from the truth?


----------



## turnera

showtime said:


> My W is also saying to call TOM and figure out who is telling the truth. I have his number, and wouldn't mind calling.


Truth about what?

YOU know the truth. He is sneaking around with a married woman.

What else is there to know?


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## turnera

showtime, you didn't answer me about the living conditions. Are you allowing the kids to sleep wherever your wife is sleeping?


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## showtime

Let me clarify on the apartment. 

TOM lives with his AUNT. TOMs Aunt told TOM if he was going to keep seeing my W. That he would have to move out. Then TOM asked my W if he (TOM) could move into the apartment with her (My W).


----------



## showtime

turnera said:


> showtime, you didn't answer me about the living conditions. Are you allowing the kids to sleep wherever your wife is sleeping?


No, they are staying with me.


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## showtime

turnera said:


> Truth about what?
> 
> YOU know the truth. He is sneaking around with a married woman.
> 
> What else is there to know?


Yeah I know, I am an idiot sometimes, all of this is driving me crazy!!! I am very impatient.

I hear you guys, I really do.


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## turnera

showtime said:


> Let me clarify on the apartment.
> 
> TOM lives with his AUNT. TOMs Aunt told TOM if he was going to keep seeing my W. That he would have to move out. Then TOM asked my W if he (TOM) could move into the apartment with her (My W).


 That's so weird. He's leaving in a month! What is he hoping to accomplish except to get as much free sex as he can get in before he leaves (sorry)?

Is she contacting him at work still?


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## showtime

turnera said:


> That's so weird. He's leaving in a month! What is he hoping to accomplish except to get as much free sex as he can get in before he leaves (sorry)?
> 
> Is she contacting him at work still?


My W contacting TOM at work?? TOM doesn't even have a job!!!

And yes TOM is leaving at the end of May for the army.

This whole situation is screwed up!!!! My oldest child told me last night that she thought that TOM was going to be her new dad, and Mom was going to marry him!!!!!!! This breaks my heart. And I told my daughter that I will always be her Dad!!!


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## Tanelornpete

> That's so weird. He's leaving in a month! What is he hoping to accomplish except to get as much free sex as he can get in before he leaves (sorry)?


My guess is that he is simply using as many people as he can to keep himself comfortable. I'll bet the military seems to be a tempting option because it offers such great signing bonuses and seems to offer good benefits. As such - he sees it as the next meal ticket. Boy is he in for a surprise.

This is the kind of person he is - and Showtime, your wife is glossing over all this to feed her fantasy. She is selectively blind. One day she will realize that here was a jobless, homeless, morally bankrupt teenager who was willing to sleep with a married woman and let his relatives pay his bills. Real desirable kinda guy there! Over time (I suspect she is already) she will start to see this more clearly and will be shocked at what she fell for.

Again, however, keep in mind that he is filling some need that she didn't perceive at home. Wait - let me rephrase that - she believes he is filling a need that she believes she was not getting at home. In reality she is most likely fantasizing that he is filling that need. 

You are ABLE to fill that need. She will figure that out. Just be patient.


----------



## turnera

showtime said:


> My W contacting TOM at work?? TOM doesn't even have a job!!!


No, I meant is she using her work phone and/or work time to contact him? If so, a visit to her boss may be in order.


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## turnera

You should ask your mom to ask his aunt if he has any other girls in the wings. I imagine he does, and that would be a great wakeup call to your wife to find out he's ... seducing ... as many girls as he can before he leaves.


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## showtime

turnera said:


> No, I meant is she using her work phone and/or work time to contact him? If so, a visit to her boss may be in order.


Oh yeah she has been contacting TOM from work. That's how all this got started!!!!

TOM is a patient at the doctors office, where my W is a nurse. This is a very small practice, with maybe 10 employees. He was going to get sent away for the military, but they messed up the paperwork for his physical. So Tom had to go back to the doctors office and get it straightened out. So after his appointment my W attached a sticky note to his paperwork with her number and it said call me!!!!! What a B****!!!!!!!

And the rest is history...

But yes, after that she was texting Tom all day everyday. And I imagine she calls him from work. Because she calls me from work 5 times a day. And I know the Dr. won't be happy with what is going on, because he knows me and the kids. We are all patients of his.


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## showtime

turnera said:


> You should ask your mom to ask his aunt if he has any other girls in the wings. I imagine he does, and that would be a great wakeup call to your wife to find out he's ... seducing ... as many girls as he can before he leaves.


TOM doesn't, we asked.

I know this has turned into a he said she said match. But TOMs Aunt told me and my mom, that my W told TOM that if TOM ever cheated on my W, she would shoot TOM with his own gun?? Crazy huh???


----------



## showtime

Me and my W have soccer practice with the kids tonite. I am not looking forward to this. But it will be for the kids, so I will be strong and get through it. With that being said, I know she is going to want to hang out a little after words. And she asked me earlier on the phone if the kids could stay with her tonite at her friends house. Of course I said no, they will sleep in their own beds. But then she asks me if she could stay here tonite with us? I said she was more than welcome to stay with us. If... And she didn't like that idea.

P.S. The thought was in the back of my mind, to let my W stay with us tonite, and this would get under TOMs skin. And maybe this would give me and my W a good chance to talk and reconnect. Or am I crazy?


----------



## showtime

And my W tells me that our marriage was over, and she was never happy, stuff like this, and that TOM has nothing to do with her decision to end our marriage. I don't know if this is the fog talk, but she is very convincing when she tells me this.

I am almost to the point where I am beginning to despise her for her actions and words.

I know you guys say it is like a drug, and I see exactly why. But I feel like I am putting so much effort into this and disrupting so many lives, and not getting anything in return?


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## Tanelornpete

> Me and my W have soccer practice with the kids tonite. I am not looking forward to this. But it will be for the kids, so I will be strong and get through it. With that being said, I know she is going to want to hang out a little after words. And she asked me earlier on the phone if the kids could stay with her tonite at her friends house. Of course I said no, they will sleep in their own beds. But then she asks me if she could stay here tonite with us? I said she was more than welcome to stay with us. If... And she didn't like that idea.
> 
> P.S. The thought was in the back of my mind, to let my W stay with us tonite, and this would get under TOMs skin. And maybe this would give me and my W a good chance to talk and reconnect. Or am I crazy?


No - you aren't crazy! You are supposed to be doing a Plan A right now - that is, give your wife what she needs, be the husband you should be, etc. And having your wife in her own home is the right thing to do.

My I point out something, however: I mentioned this above: when you state your conditions for recovering the marriage - only use it for that occasion. Don't use it as a weapon. In essence, it is the necessary conditions to recovering your marriage. When the conversation turns to recovery, or returning home, then state that as a condition. The rest of the time, let her feel safe with you.
At best, tell her that she can stay on one condition - that she does not contact The Other Man when she is there - out of courtesy for you. 

I am not a big fan of repeating your conditions every time you speak to her. I think that as long as you make her aware that they exist, and cannot be bypassed, you have done enough. She is smart enough to understand that. On the other hand - she may feel like she may never be welcome back after all the stupid things she did - you need to let her know she is safe and wanted. 

Moreover - as for her fog talk - allow her to say it. And keep realizing that as things fall apart for her, she will slowly change her mind. Don't let it get to you...


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## turnera

showtime said:


> And my W tells me that our marriage was over, and she was never happy, stuff like this, and that TOM has nothing to do with her decision to end our marriage. I don't know if this is the fog talk, but she is very convincing when she tells me this.
> 
> I am almost to the point where I am beginning to despise her for her actions and words.
> 
> I know you guys say it is like a drug, and I see exactly why. But I feel like I am putting so much effort into this and disrupting so many lives, and not getting anything in return?


 If you're looking for something to do, lol, go to marriagebuilders.com and read some of the threads in Infidelity. You'll see the EXACT SAME STUFF you are experiencing, the EXACT SAME STUFF she is saying, and the EXACT SAME STUFF that happens after exposure.

It's called a script for a reason. They all repeat the script. In fact, we pretty much tell the betrayed spouse (you) what they're going to say BEFORE they say it. The BS's are always amazed, and come back and say 'You were right! That's exactly what she said!' and so on.

Remember that from your side, what she is doing is a horrid, horrid thing. Why doesn't it seem horrid to her? Because the VERY instant that first thought came into her head, she had to come up with something to tell herself it was ok to lie, steal, cheat. _That very instant_. Imagine yourself in her place, notepad and pen in hand, thinking of writing down your phone number but knowing you're married, it's wrong...but it's so exciting to think of doing! The adrenaline rush you receive is UNBELIEVABLE to be doing something to sneaky, so daring, so potentially rewarding!

So, what would make it ok to lie, steal, cheat? The 'fact' that she had to, that her life was a shambles, that you were a monster. And the longer she does it, further she goes, the bigger the whopper becomes. And she _has_ to believe it, herself, or HATE herself. Be as disgusted with herself as you are.

Until she can no longer believe it. Until you shine light on the affair and all the fantasy she has built up on it bursts, with parents calling, and aunts, and having to sleep in a nasty apartment away from her kids, and having to ASK you if she can sleep at home...and it crumbles.

Like Tanelorn says, the most important thing here is for you to be her SAFETY net. She's in a freefall, desperate, wondering why nothing is working any more, now this KID is wanting to move into her apartment with her and she won't be able to hide the truth any more if he does.

So you? You are the calmness. The honor. The right thing. The one who always loved her and WILL welcome her home and forgive her...IF she just gives up the fantasy.

So pretty soon, unless you mess up and become an angry jerk so she HAS to go the other way, the decision will be easy.


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## turnera

showtime said:


> P.S. The thought was in the back of my mind, to let my W stay with us tonite, and this would get under TOMs skin. And maybe this would give me and my W a good chance to talk and reconnect. Or am I crazy?


 You should ALWAYS welcome her home...as long as he will not contact ANOTHER MAN under your roof.

It's that simple, really. A marriage home does NOT include contacting lovers.

She'll get it.


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## showtime

Well she told me last night, that she filed the divorce papers, and I will be served today!!!! We got into an argument about it last night and things went really bad for a while. But I defused the situation and she has calmed back down and so have I. I just feel like everything is crumbling around me. But she says we will be alright. And she says we have to be alright for our kids. She says she was scared I was going to try and take the kids from her, and that's why she filed the divorce papers. My W also says, she doesn't know what the future holds, and that we need to keep it together for our kids.

I am freeking out right now, and feel like it is just about all over. Is this normal, or should I be concerned and start letting go?

And after all this, do I still act like everything is fine around her. And that I am the happy?

Also she said, she doesn't want TOM to move in with her. I don't know if I beleive that, but you know when our kids aren't there, he will be every night!!!!!!!


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## Affaircare

Showtime~

It sounds like the fantasy portion of her A is beginning to crumble. A) She doesn't get the kids--she's beginning to realize that the lie she told herself about you being a poor father isn't true and that you'll stand up for your children, so at minimum she's faced with loosing half her time with her kids. That's a high cost and it does scare her and hurt her. It should. That is a natural consequence of divorce. B) She doesn't get the house. She'll have to get her own place and finance her own bills and household things, and she doesn't have you to fall back on anymore. She thought she'd get the house and kids and TOM could move in basically and replace you...and now she's not even sure if she'll get equity! C) Everyone was supposed to love TOM and be happy for her that she found true love! Instead everyone is mad, telling her what she's doing is wrong, and he's pressuring her to move in. He was supposed to be her "romantic hero" and it turns out she's losing the happy life she had for a homeless, jobless leech. 

Just those things alone are enough to make her mad as a wet hen because her dream isn't turning out. I would honestly continue on the road we've laid out: 

1) She is welcome to come back home. She can have her home and 100% time with her children if she agrees to NO CONTACT with the OM and both of you give each other passwords to emails, cellphones, IM's etc. You can help her get through the sadness of missing the OM but she can come home. 

2) Continue on with the "Carrot and Stick" of working on your issues, concentrating on making yourself a better man and husband and father, and improving your own weaknesses. One of the things I see happening now, for example, is that I don't hear of your efforts toward self-improvement nor hear of an epiphany you've had recently...so in her eyes she either goes with the homeless guy or goes back to the same old guy who made her lonely and vulnerable to an A in the first place. *There NEEDS to be some concentration on ending the Love Extinguishers you were doing*, and demonstrating a change in you --a real change-- so she feels hope in coming back. The "stick" part seems to be fairly well in place and working, so this week let's really concentrate on the "carrot" part. 

3) Do not "pretend" everything is okay. Part of what got you into this mess is pretending and not be transparent to each other. Right now the trouble is that your feelings get away with you and there's tendency to try to control and blame. SOOooo...rather than "pretending" things are okay, I would suggest that you think of easy, fun things you two could do with each other with no strings attached. For example, invite her to watch a movie with you and the kids. Cook a new recipe and ask if she wants to try it. Ask her to a car show (if she likes those ) or dog show. Get the idea? Just do some fun stuff that has no real pressure and does not create an argument. Don't even TRY to talk relationship after the fun. If she tries, just say, "You know what? We had some fun tonight. Let's savor the moment and just be glad we enjoyed each other's company."


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## OhGeesh

Good luck!! I'm sorry for what you are and have went through. Affaircare's plan sounds solid, but I know at least in my state it takes a act of Congress for the father to get the kids.

ALL divorces I have seen that were filed by the Wife have led to splitting the assets and the wife getting custody with child support.


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## turnera

Most exposed waywards threaten the divorce card immediately. They think it's the best way to scare the betrayed spouse to back down. He is showing her it won't work. So now she has to go to Plan 2 - whatever that is. As long as he keeps showing her he is improving himself, she can come home as soon as she's done committing adultery, and he won't cave, the affair is likely over. Will she be too proud to come home? Possibly. That's why it's so important for showtime to show her that HE is also compromising by improving for her.

As far as custody, showtime, you need to be keeping a concrete diary of everything she is doing and saying.


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## showtime

Ok everybody, so today went well I suppose? I asked her to lunch today while I was working, and the kids were with their GM. She said "Where, and I'm broke" I said I will take you to lunch, where do you want to go. SO, we went to lunch, just me and her. It was a pleasant lunch, no arguing or fighting, just conversation between friends so to speak. My W did tell me that they couldn't serve me the papers because she didn't have the 35 dollars the cops wanted to serve me. So lunch went well.

Then my W sends me a text later that afternoon asking if I would ask my mom to call TOMs Aunt, and apologize for bringing TOMs Aunt into this? And the text from my W also said, She(Aunt) is very upset and he (TOM) needs to stay there with her(Aunt). Beacause TOMs Aunt told TOM, that ifhe was going to mess around with a married woman, he was going to have to leave her house!! Also my W apartment deal is falling through because our landlord wouldn't sign off on 2 years worth of rental history for her. So they won't let her have the aprtment without that information.


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## Tanelornpete

First - ignore the divorce threats. It's what she sees _right now_ as her only option. She will see others in time. If she serves them, so be it. But don't dwell on it at all.

Second - you already know the answer to the situation with the Other Man's aunt. She is a free person, and an adult, who is fully capable of making up her own mind about who she allows to live in her home and who does not. Your mom did not bring his Aunt into this. He did. The result would be the same whether your mom told him, or she found out some other way. 

His Aunt clearly states that if he is going to mess with a married woman, he can't live there. She said nothing about him not being welcome if her friend points out that he is doing something immoral. She clearly says 'if HE is doing 'x' - then 'y' must happen.

If he wants to live there - then he must abide by his Aunt's rules. You can't change that. And your mom certainly can't - the most she could do is ask her to let him live there in spite of her rules. Again - that's up to his Aunt and no one else.

So this is more babble from your wife, attempting to stop the cascade of falling fantasy. How about she simply picks up the phone and calls his Aunt and asks her? Suppose she says 'Please let him stay there - I will no longer be messing around with him..."

Stay on focus, stay loving, friendly and firm.


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## showtime

Thanks everybody, I am going to ask her if she wants to hang with us tonite and watch some movies!!! I know she is hesitant about this because we all know TOM would not like that!!!! But I am going to ask her anyway. I am sure if he catches wind we went to lunch today TOM won't be too thrilled about that either. But she could also lie to him and say we were talking over the divorce. Regardless, I am sure TOM doesn't like us spending any time together. SO I know exactly what to do now, I am seeing a little bit of light at the end of the tunnel. My W is still trying to "babble on" about the divorce and that kinda stuff. But I steer the conversations away from that talk. Also I might ad, that after lunch, she thanked me and we shared a nice hug.


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## turnera

Just be careful, if she can't get the apartment, she'll be wanting to come home on HER terms, so make sure you that are ADAMANT about having access to her phone, passwords, and computer if she comes home. She has blown the right to be home without that rule.


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## showtime

turnera said:


> Just be careful, if she can't get the apartment, she'll be wanting to come home on HER terms, so make sure you that are ADAMANT about having access to her phone, passwords, and computer if she comes home. She has blown the right to be home without that rule.


Oh she knows the rules.


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## Affaircare

Right showtime--you ARE getting it. 

She is beginning to see that she is leaving a mature man, good father, great provider, and husband who may have slipped somewhat...

... for an immature, homeless, no job, no money, mostly a kid himself--not really a father. 

She doesn't have the money to serve you, or go out to lunch. That means she's noticing that TOM can not provide for her. How in the WORLD is he going to provide for children?

He can't be at his Aunt's if he's messing with a married woman and he has nowhere else to go. How in the WORLD is he going to give her and her kids a home? 

...it may take her a while because she's in some very deep, foggy, dizzy thinking but that's okay. You keep being the best showtime you can be. By the way, for your fun, here is a Portrait of an ISFJ - Introverted Sensing Feeling Judging. This page tells you all about your personality type and at the bottom if you ciick ISFJ's in Relationships it will tell you some of your strengths and weaknesses in a relationship. If you click Personal Growth, it will tell you some areas you could concentrate on for personal growth! It might be fun to just mention some of this stuff to your W--like about personalities and what you've found out about yourself. 


BTW--yeah it goes without saying, don't call your mom to call the aunt. What Tanelorn says...:iagree:


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## Tanelornpete

Just a note of observation - the fact that she "can't" pay for someone to hand you the divorce papers shows that she is not as into the divorce as the wants you to think. She can easily hand you the papers herself....for free...


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## turnera

Most likely, she didn't get anything done cos she had no money to give the lawyer in the first place.


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## showtime

So, tonite. all four of us went to dinner. I could tell in the beginning my W was really stressed and getting aggravate easily with the kids and thinking about going to dinner and a movie. We pushed through it (I helped with that mostly). And our oldest daugter was complaining that her jeans didn't fit,(they grow sooo fast!!). So before dinner we stopped in and got her a new pair of jeans that fit. Then we went to dinner which was nice, everybody was calm, and real similar to the old family. During dinner my W had made a joke. She looked at the entrance and said "It's TOM" and kinda laughed. I don't know what that means for sure. 

So then we went to the movie, kids were great(We watched how to train a Dragon) The kids didn't complain or anything, and I know my W was overly stressed with how the evening was beginning. But I took the reigns and got everybody calmed down. And on the way home my W said that her friend (co-worker) that has gone through a very similar situation on the losing end was praying for all of us. I said GOOD!!! My wife said, I wouldn't get your hopes up, she (her friend) knows where my head is at. I hope that was the jibberish talk explained earlier. So we all got home and she left pretty quickly. But we hugged and she thanked me for the evening!! So that was nice.

I can tell her head isn't quite ready yet. But she is at least willing to hang out with all of us in public and look like a family. Because we are. And the more times our family can be seen in public together, the less comfortable my W will be with TOM in public, right? 

So, I think I finally have my head in the game. And yes every time my W picks up her phone I cringe and want to rip it out of her hand because I think my W is texting TOM. My W said she wouldn't text TOM while I was around because it is rude. But I don't trust her, so.
But I think I realize how I need to behave. And if I can continue to show her these things, hopefully she will come around.

And for the other areas in my life that were lacking in our marriage. I am tending to all the house work, and taking more control of the disciplining our kids. Also lining out the bills and making grocery lists, and heading up the soccer team!!

And tomorrow we have our oldests first soccer game!!!! So it will give us a good chance to bond again as a family, and another reason to be a family again.

So thanks everybody, and please keep me focused here, because I do tend to steer off course from time to time.


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## Affaircare

You do a little bit, but WOW showtime--I am SOOOOOOOO proud of you! You did a great job! Side-by-side comparison:

TOM--can't afford to take her out to dinner
Show--dinner and a movie for the whole family

TOM--can't afford a place to live
Show--taking care of bills, home, kids and housework

TOM--can't buy her little gifts or romantic things
Show--Oh so totally could if he wanted to 

TOM--everyone is mad at her and telling her it's wrong
Show--everyone loves her and wants her back

TOM--says he is a family man but has no kids and can't care for them on his own
Show--taking the reins, stepping up to the plate and being a single father (OH! Darn I guess that stuff about him being a bad father must not be true)

Do you see how this is going? And you've been kind and gracious to her, given her good opportunity to see that it CAN be fun with you, given her a chance to see that you admit your part and you're working on doing better, etc. Seriously, I know the ups and downs and loop-de-loops can throw you off, but I really do think you're getting it. 

Does she have a little thing she really likes or collects or something? For example I like pens and coffee mugs and bears and on the occasion for no particular reason, Dear Hubby will get me one "just because". This might be a great chance to think back to the days when she fell in love with you--what did you used to do, get for her, write for her or whatever that REALLY made her squeal happy? Then send her a small, little reminder one and say "Had a great night with you last night--enjoyed being with you and appreciated that you were with me. Remember these?"  

It may add just the perfect _"ZING!"_ on a SUPER GREAT JOB!! 

Oh seriously--I am so impressed! And what RWB said is so true. Even if it all goes way south because she's just too stubborn, look at you. You stood for your family, your wife, and your children with HONOR and did the manly thing! It is a trial of your soul, for sure, but when you can look back and know you did the right thing and the best thing even when it was hard, wow what a difference that makes.


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## OneMarriedGuy

Showtime ... going going !!! Way to man-up!


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## losinglove

Way to go Showtime...inspiring


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## Tanelornpete

> You will be known as the Dude


Hey, careful, man, there's a beverage here!!

Awesome! You are doing great!

(That rug really ties the room together...)


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## showtime

Thanks for all the kind words everybody!!!!

Unfortunatly for me. TOM is staying the night with her right now??
I feel like I do a really good job, and then something like this is going on, and redevastates me...

This kind of stuff wrenches on my heart sooooooo bad. I feel like I put so much effort into this, and seems like I might get rewarded, and then BAM!!!!! Back down to a mear shell of a man!!! ugggghhh!


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## Tanelornpete

I wouldn't put too much stock into her spending the night with the Other Guy - you are souring that relationship right up. Right now, there is a very good chance that she is seeing him in a whole new light - and it's not very flattering.


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## showtime

Tanelornpete said:


> I wouldn't put too much stock into her spending the night with the Other Guy - you are souring that relationship right up. Right now, there is a very good chance that she is seeing him in a whole new light - and it's not very flattering.


I don't know you guys, she has been acting very crazy the past few days. I know, you say she is having withdrawls and such. But this is so hard for me, just sitting back and watching her spin out of control. Our mutual friend she is staying with is enabling her to use our friend to get her fix. I feel like I need to have a talk with our mutual friend, but I know our mutual friend tells my W almost everything we talk about, and I mean everything. Should I just sit back and ride this one out. Or push it to the next level, and stir the pot some more???

And coincedentally, the place where she is staying is by another one of our friends, and she saw me drive by where she is last night, and she texted me and asked me? Did you just drive by? I saw you? And some more drama for our pot, she says... I am sure she is telling TOM I am stalking her, she has lied about everything else, what else does she have to lose?


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## Feelingalone

Showtime,

Just remember patience is a virtue. You are doing great. I didn't do these things Tan, Affaircare, and Turnera have you doing (of course they weren't on the forum when the timing was right) and I was in a depressive fog of my own (led to a lot of the issues). 

Just keep on being strong. Now is the time to be the man or the Dude. Keep working on you though. As someone pointed out to me, she is testing who will fight for her. Not a literal fight but who is the more dominant man. I think you mentioned getting a copy of No More Mr. Nice Guy by Dr. Glover. If not get it. And I'd also suggest a book by Elliot Katz entitled "Being the Strong Man a Woman Wants". Dr. Glover actually writes the foreword in this book.
Katz' is a quick read -- I just got it and almost finished. 

So stay the path. I would just keep doing what you are doing. It is working -- no need to ratchet things up. This isn't a race, this is a journey/process. And remember you must work on you -- because when the fog lifts the real work on your marriage starts. So look in the mirror and have a head start on improving you.

You are the Dude.


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## turnera

I agree with Feeling. You seem to have a lot of trouble taking the reins. You're too nice. And that's why she started looking for someone who WOULD take the bull by the horns - even if it's immoral. It shook her to her boots, didn't it? Girls grow up fantasizing about masculine, manly men who will come in on a horse, sweep them up, take their breath away, and ride off into the sunset. They need to be told to shut up (not literally) and accept what the man has in mind. I hope that makes sense. Maybe read some romance novels to get an idea.

So...when real life comes in, and she has to change diapers, and clean toilets, and make lunches, and the man comes home and plops down in front of the tv and expects dinner to be made cos she's the woman - even if she works, too...well, you can see how women fall out of love with their man. Women now make up over 50% of the workforce - yet they are still expected to do 80% of maintaining the house and kids.

And along comes this young stud, no baggage, can go anywhere he wants, is going off on an exciting career shortly, is free to flirt with her and get her heart pumping...again, you can see how you paled in comparison.

So how to even the score? By learning about her and understanding what she was lacking in your marriage. Obviously, she had some disappointments, or she wouldn't be ripe for someone else to come along. Try to figure out what her disappointments were (your Love Busters). In fact, you might want to print out the Love Buster questionnaire from marriagebuilders.com, and try to fill it out FOR her. As if you were her. Visualize yourself getting up in the morning as her, what did she have to do? Where were YOU? What disappointments happened there? Fix those. Think of her during work - what other responsibilities did she have? 

I used to have to get most of my errands done at lunch break, because my husband complained if I took time out AFTER work to run errands, and did he ever do any to take them off my hands? Hell, no. So I was stuck using up all my lunch breaks doing things to keep the house and family running, instead of actually taking a break and unwinding with a nice lunch. It's really easy to get burned out that way. What can you do to fix that?

Then picture her after work. What was her typical schedule? Where were you? How did she feel? Did anyone ever show her appreciation? Tell her to go to a spa and just pamper herself? Take the kids away and let her have the house to herself with no responsibilities? The whole time my daughter was growing up, I kept asking my husband for ONE birthday present only - just one - to take D away for the day or weekend, and let me just BE in the house, alone, by myself, nothing I had to do, no one I had to worry about or please, no having to adjust MY schedule to keep everyone else happy...I just wanted to be alone. He did it ONCE - and only for about 6 hours; but it was 6 hours of heaven for me.

Side Note: We saw Date Night last night, and during the requisite 'serious' section where they talked about their issues of being a boring married couple, she actually told her husband that her dream wasn't to run away with a hunk (they had just run into one and he was jealous); she said her dream was to be ALONE! I was literally jumping up and down in my seat, going YES! YES! My H thought I was nuts! She said all she dreamt about was to be alone with no responsibilities, no having to turn herself off and be what everyone ELSE wanted, or stop what she wanted, to make sure everyone else got what they wanted. Unfortunately, her husband just said 'that makes no sense.' I can only hope they went home and discussed it further. You should probably go see it, to see how a burned out wife/mother feels.

Anyway, try to figure out how she's thinking. That is your way back. Keep using the Love Buster questionnaire, and try to figure out what went on in her hours after work as well as her weekends, and see where she disappeared. I guarantee that's what happened - she felt like SHE was gone and was replaced by MOM/WIFE. 

TOM gave her a chance to be SHE again. It's your job to do that, too. So she can see that coming home doesn't mean she has to give up SHE again and trade it in for MOM/WIFE - she doesn't want to disappear again.

I really think that, if you start having conversations with her, if you start talking about how you've been thinking and guessing what she was feeling (using the LB questionnaire), you think you realized what she was missing. Tell her your guesses. Ask her if you are right. Ask her to correct your misconceptions, so you can adjust the LB questionnaire. Ask her if she wants to fill it out; once she sees that it does help you 'get' her, she may want to.

And don't forget to listen to FeelingAlone, and read up on how to be less of a nice guy, so you can be the one giving her chills.


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## romantica

What you really need do is to just be sincere with your self. what your wife needs now is just to be sure that you are sincere about your attitude. Judging from what you wrote here it seem you are really in love with her, she's only doubting your sincerity. Most people get involved in emotional affair when there is a problem in their relationship and when trying to get over it becomes difficult and they need to talk to somebody( this is as a result of communication breakdown in the relationship)
Just be calm and consistent in your positive effort to win her trust back. Soon, she would be convinced and give you another chance.

Good luck!


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## kenmoore14217

Good Lord you are insecure! The more you ignore her the more she will be wondering why you're not following her around! Which in turn will make you more INTERESTING in her eyes and thus she'll start paying more ATTENTION to YOU! Get it? Like hey, has he meet someone new? OMG! I never thought HE would meet someone new! Of course, "he" being YOU.


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## showtime

Thanks ken I hear you. But will that just make her feel better and justify her actions even more??

And apparently my W and TOM are promising each other the WORLD!!! From what I hear they are sooo in love with each other. Is this typicall talk and behavior??? It just feels like it is all over.

And my W wants to come over this morning because where she is staying, her friends family is going to be there and she doesn't want to hang out with them. So she wants to come over for a while and maybe go somewhere or do something as a family. Should I go somewhere with the kids without her. Or let her come over and hang with us??!!!!!!


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## kenmoore14217

Me, I would ignore the crap out of her. Wouldn't be around when she showed up. Wouldn't answer the phone, wouldn't communicate in any way, shape or form. YOU ARE THE MAN. She is the woman. She has to come after you. If she doesn't then you certainly don't want to be with somebody that really doesn't want to be with you do you? You have to willing to let her go and when you reach that point is when all truths will be known. Either she will stay or she will go. Listen, I was in industrial sales for the better part of 40 years and the saying was: Give me a YES, Give me a NO but NEVER give me a MAYBE. That's playing both ends against the middle. You're overthinking this "Showtime", it comes down to cave man and cave woman. No fancy tactical workings here............YES OR NO!!!!


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## Feelingalone

Showtime, you need to ignore what they are doing and saying and worry about yourself. As I said, you need to be the Man, a Strong Man.

That means having your principles and standing your ground on them. Being compassionate when needed. Be honest. Taking responsibility for good and bad decisions. Leading your family. Being decisive. Being calm even during the hard times.

Your w is looking for you to do these things. Heck at times they will test you for a backbone. If you don't do these things they come to resent you over time and look for another.

Right now listen to Tan, Affaircare and Turnera on how to deal with the actions of her affair, but get working on becoming the man you need to be not for her but for you. Being in control of yourself and your environment. 

Do you want to do something as a family? Can you do it being calm and in control? IF so do it -- you make the decision. You set the time and place of what you are going to do -- leading.


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## showtime

Feelingalone said:


> Showtime, you need to ignore what they are doing and saying and worry about yourself. As I said, you need to be the Man, a Strong Man.
> 
> That means having your principles and standing your ground on them. Being compassionate when needed. Be honest. Taking responsibility for good and bad decisions. Leading your family. Being decisive. Being calm even during the hard times.
> 
> Your w is looking for you to do these things. Heck at times they will test you for a backbone. If you don't do these things they come to resent you over time and look for another.
> 
> Right now listen to Tan, Affaircare and Turnera on how to deal with the actions of her affair, but get working on becoming the man you need to be not for her but for you. Being in control of yourself and your environment.
> 
> Do you want to do something as a family? Can you do it being calm and in control? IF so do it -- you make the decision. You set the time and place of what you are going to do -- leading.


I do want to do something as a family, but I know the whole time my W will be texting him and not really be WITH us. You know what I am saying. My W only wants to hang out with us because she doesn't have any other place to go for the day!!!!!


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## Feelingalone

So do something with her. If texting bothers you, tell her in advance that since this is a "family" thing that no texting will be allowed by her and if she does choose to do that then you will end the family outing and she can go her own way. Then if she chooses to ignore -- end the family outing. 

So tell her your expectations, the consequences, and stick to it. That is being a man. All the while being calm, etc. doing it. Sure she might get mad -- but when you start changing that will be her reaction. In time this will change as long as you consistently be the man.


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## showtime

Well me and the kids went without her!! I just decided I need some time with the kids by myself. We went out and got some summer clothes. It was a lot of fun. My W was not happy with me because I left without telling her, and she couldn't gt in the house because I have the only key. And yes I know this is a love buster for sure. But I just can't take it anymore. I have to start doing my own thing and trying to forget about her for a while. 

Yes I still fell like I want her back. But this morning I just said enough was enough. And our mutual friend calls me up and was telling me that my W is getting on her nerves and using her to get to TOM. And our mutual friend is going to tell my W to kick rocks. Our mutual friend was telling me that TOM was just going to pay for hotels. I said good for them. That will be the dream life, living out of a hotel!!! And I also said, TOM better have an endless pocket book!!!!

So after our mutual friend gives my W the boot. What do you thinks going to happen? My W will come to me, wanting me to feel sorry for her and let her stay here. Which is going to be a catch 22. Because I don't really want her here because of all this. But at the same time, I know that TOM will be none to happy if she is staying here!!!!

So what do you guys think about all that!!!???


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## Tanelornpete

> But this morning I just said enough was enough.


So - what is this 'enough' of which you speak? 



> So after our mutual friend gives my W the boot. What do you thinks going to happen? My W will come to me, wanting me to feel sorry for her and let her stay here. Which is going to be a catch 22. Because I don't really want her here because of all this. But at the same time, I know that TOM will be none to happy if she is staying here!!!!


As we have been repeating over and over - if she wants to stay at home, you have certain conditions. If she is unwilling to abide by those conditions, she has to find somewhere else to live. 

Also: 



> And apparently my W and TOM are promising each other the WORLD!!! From what I hear they are sooo in love with each other. Is this typicall talk and behavior??? It just feels like it is all over.


This is by the book scripted behavior. It's the fantasy - that is falling apart. Seriously Dude - pay no attention to it. The only purpose you would have for even considering this is in order to fuel an emotional response for yourself - a means of self pity. Avoid it, _work on yourself,_ and let her face the consequences of her choices.


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## showtime

Tanelornpete said:


> So - what is this 'enough' of which you speak?
> 
> 
> 
> As we have been repeating over and over - if she wants to stay at home, you have certain conditions. If she is unwilling to abide by those conditions, she has to find somewhere else to live.
> 
> Also:
> 
> 
> 
> This is by the book scripted behavior. It's the fantasy - that is falling apart. Seriously Dude - pay no attention to it. The only purpose you would have for even considering this is in order to fuel an emotional response for yourself - a means of self pity. Avoid it, _work on yourself,_ and let her face the consequences of her choices.


Ok thanks tan. I thought so, but our mutual friend doesn't believe me when I tell her that is the fog talk over the fantsy world she is living in. I also told our mutual friend to come over to the house and I would show her the research I have been doing, and all the help and coaching I have received. I told our mutual friend that she will be blown away when I show her this stuff. And that will help my cause even more, when our mutual friend can stop beleiveing my W and start believeing ME!!!!


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## Affaircare

showtime~

"_I promise I'll work hard for you and give you the kind of house you and your kids deserve. I promise I'll never, ever take you for granted. I'll be there for you whenever you need me. I promise I'll never raise my voice to you or be angry_."

I want to ask you a question. Assuming I actually said those things to you right now, exactly what are they worth? Am I even employed so I can rent a house? Do I get along with your kids? Do they get along with me? Have I been so overwhelmed with work and chores that I've taken a person for granted? Or have I avoided work and responsibilities so that I have nothing else to do but put them on others and "be free" to make promises I can't keep? Have I ever "been there" for you to help you get through a disaster? Have I ever seen your checkbook overdrawn and mortgage due after you said you'd pay it and used it on shoes instead? Have you ever lied to me so I'd get angry rightfully? 

My point here is that "lovers" will often say stuff like that to each other and it is meaningless and unrealistic. They are swooney-eyed toward each other but how much is REAL? None. That's why we say that people involved in an affair live in a fantasy--because in real life he is a homeless, unemployed guy who is so selfish he's willing to break up a family and so immoral he knows she's married and has no issue being unfaithful. The reality is that he's not a very great catch! The reality is that he can't give her a home, food, stability...none of that stuff that's REAL and you have proven you can. Now, he *MAY* be giving her things like appreciation and affection...but that would be something you can learn to give too--you are willing to learn. 

Anyway, do not focus on how "in love" they are--that is the addiction. They are "addicted" and like addicts they will continue to do any vile thing they have to do in order to get that love-zing fix. And yeah--my ex gave up a 4000sqft. home and million dollar business to live in a hotel with his mistress--so sometimes the choice is obvious and they still won't do the right thing. You can't make her do the right thing. What you CAN do is keep your focus on a couple things:

1) YOU become the man you have the ability to be. Again I point you toward working on your own weaknesses and not looking so much at them. From what I hear, their world is collapsing. She can't get an apartment, doesn't want him to live with her, HE has nowhere to live, SHE has nowhere to live...and for what? So leave that alone it's doing fine. Now is the time for you to work on YOU. Here is a place to start: ISFJ Personal Growth. This page tells some of the areas of potential weakness in your specific personality type--and although it is for all people who are ISFJ's and therefore a little generic, see if some of them don't ring true for you and then work on that area! 

Your assignment here is to look at the page, pick out one area that hits a nerve with you, and come back to tell us how you plan to work on that area. 

2) Even though you do provide for her the home, family, children and finances that mean caring for someone, there was apparently something that TOM provided for her that she needed. Maybe it was just giving her full attention and talking to her. Maybe being affectionate and taking the time to do "those little things." Assignment #2 is to think back to the days when you two were dating and she naturally fell in love with YOU. What were you doing then that made her giggly with happiness that you're not doing now? This Love Kindlers Questionnaire may help ya with that. 

Your assignment is to think of those days and come back here and TELL US what it was. Just identify one or maybe two things that used to make her *thrilled* that you used to do. 

Okay so two assignments.  Get busy on those and stay focused on YOUR work--let her life unfold as it will.


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## Affaircare

Dude--get busy. There is a BEVERAGE involved here!


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## showtime

Well some of the first things I remember doing that she really loved were just snuggling on the couch and telling her how beutiful her eyes are!!! I can't really do that now, but eventually. Also my W really likes going out of town for the day and just getting away. We did that stuff all the time. And we both really enjoy bike riding.

And I will do some more research in the other areas and keep you posted.

And just an update, our mutual friend is giving my W the boot as we speak!!! Our mutual friend is forwarding me all the texts, because of course, my W is spending time with TOM!!! And as the texts show, my W is panicking, it is kind of funny to watch/read. Regardless, I will do some work on myself here, and post back.


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## Feelingalone

Showtime,

Its not "some work" it is the look in the mirror and really, truly drop all of the false pretenses that you think about yourself and dig deep. I'm not talking one day you do this -- I'm talking about the next 6 months, heck the rest of your life working to improve. 

That is where I'm at. It can suck when you realize your own faults, and there is pain involved in these realizations. But in the end you will be a better person no matter what happens with the W. 

Get to work. And people on here will be here to help and assist.

Peace.


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## kenmoore14217

Way to go Showtime, you showed ME something!! You're getting yourself back. Great Day.


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## showtime

I just read the personal growth article!!! Holy crap!!! That thing is right on target with who I am and how I percieve the world. I have got some changing to do.


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## showtime

kenmoore14217 said:


> Way to go Showtime, you showed ME something!! You're getting yourself back. Great Day.


Thanks ken!! I appreciate the advice. 

My W called me later this afternoon and asked what we did. I told my W, me and the kids did some summer clothes shopping, and I could tell she feels like she missed out, because she loves shopping and so do I beleive it or not!!! And that was something we always did together.


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## Tanelornpete

showtime said:


> I just read the personal growth article!!! Holy crap!!! That thing is right on target with who I am and how I percieve the world. I have got some changing to do.


LOL - that *Myers Briggs personality stuff* is amazingly helpful. We advise everyone to be very familiar with their own personality and how you interact with others. It's pretty much an entire tool-kit for building a good relationship.

Here's another step to take - try (to the best of your ability) to get your spouse's personality type as well - you will find really helpful ways to communicate to them in manners that that work best for them.


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## showtime

here is what I guessed my W would be...

You are:
distinctively expressed extravert

moderately expressed sensing personality

moderately expressed feeling personality

slightly expressed perceiving personality

Where did you find the run down on that type like the one eye opener I jsut read??


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## kenmoore14217

I don't know Showtime but from my personal experience when I am pro-active is when I'm at my best. When I am re-active, defending myself or responding to someone, that's when I stink. Much better to be pro-active, like taking the kids shopping by yourself! Once it sets in that you are perfectly willing to leave others in your dust you will see some changes. But the biggest change will be you, and that's the most important change of all.


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## showtime

kenmoore14217 said:


> I don't know Showtime but from my personal experience when I am pro-active is when I'm at my best. When I am re-active, defending myself or responding to someone, that's when I stink. Much better to be pro-active, like taking the kids shopping by yourself! Once it sets in that you are perfectly willing to leave others in your dust you will see some changes. But the biggest change will be you, and that's the most important change of all.


Yeah I agree ken. This whole time I have been wrapped up in my emotions and couldn't overcome them. I think mostly because I didn't know a lot of the truth behind what was really going on. But now that I have a pretty good idea, I can finally work past that and move forward. And that was all I was asking from my W was to tell me the truth. Of course I didn't get it, and still haven't. Luckily I have a friend on the inside. But like I said I am finally moving past my emotions and looking at the big picture. 

My W even said, Wow you have never taken the kids on your own like that!! I said, because we have always been together as a family. Duh!! ( I didn't say Duh, but I wanted to!)


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## showtime

And at what point does their relationship reach it's breaking point? I mean when do they say this isn't going to work? It seems like I take one step forward and three steps back?


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## kenmoore14217

You have to keep working on "YOU", that's all you can control. Make yourself better by being your own man. Depend on yourself, make decisions by yourself, take over the controls of your emotions and life and keep going forward and all the rest will fall into place. Who knows, maybe you will find a newer and better version of old what's her name in the future. Great things happening out there Showtime just waiting for you to enjoy them.


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## showtime

kenmoore14217 said:


> You have to keep working on "YOU", that's all you can control. Make yourself better by being your own man. Depend on yourself, make decisions by yourself, take over the controls of your emotions and life and keep going forward and all the rest will fall into place. Who knows, maybe you will find a newer and better version of old what's her name in the future. Great things happening out there Showtime just waiting for you to enjoy them.


LOL!! That made me chuckle!! I hear you, I really do!!


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## turnera

kenmoore is right. You've spent the last month COMPLETELY wrapped up in getting your wife back. Where were YOU in all this?

The truth is, you CAN survive without her. You may not want to...now...but you can. So can the kids. Worse things have happened.

So focus on what YOU need as a human being, son of God, whatever...in the grand scheme of things. Spend a lot of time deciding who YOU are, cos you've likely been coasting the last 20 or 30 years, doing what was expected of you, what society tells us to do...when did you ever slow down and just THINK?

This is a great time for that. Because you're at a great point in your life to stop and say...what do I need out of life?

Because, once you KNOW that, when your wife comes crawling back - and I don't see how she CAN'T, since she can't rub two pennies together - you can deal with her from a position of strength. Strength in knowing what YOU have to get out of life, and WHETHER she can even qualify to be part of it. 

Knowing that allows you to tell her - in all honesty - 'If I let you come home, I have to have ABC and XYZ from you. If you won't do that, I don't need you.' 

She will KNOW. She'll know that she can no longer BS you, or lie to you, or USE you. And IMO, for her to reach true understanding, she needs to be AT THAT POINT in her life. Where she can either run from it and be a miserable SOB for the rest of her life, or face HER humanity, and accept what God has set out for her - through you.

So...get to thinking!


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## showtime

Well our mutual friend couldn't bring herself to throw my W out.


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## OhGeesh

Hmmmm........ya know Showtime I'm one of those wierd guys that always says if my wife were to have a one night stand "I don't want to know!" a little EA "I don't want to know!" I say this assuming her attitude around the house would be mostly the same because my life is almost perfect and has been for years from a marriage perspective.

If I were going through what you are I don't think I would put up the good fight that you are. I don't know your confidence level and it's not like I think I'm some super stud, but after the ringer you've been put through I question how long I would hold on being in your shoes. It takes so many choices to get to the point she is at. Some chatting on the internet is one thing, even phone calls another, a one night stand on a business trip, but this is FULL BLOWN I'm selling out for some DUDE.

Your the bread winner, your the responsible one, your the smart one, your the dad and mom now, what does she really have to offer you now? Is she the same woman you married and how long has she been living with these feeling that led to this monumental life decision on her part? I hope she turns around soon and you guys can reconcile because I'm a romantic at heart I do feel that after focusing on YOU getting in shape if your not, really soul searching for your needs, desires, and focusing on the kids that you might not want her back. You self esteem and self worth might not allow you to take her back!

Good luck!! I do feel for you!!


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## Harvard

you seem like a good person while your wife seems like an ungrateful person who only cares about herself. 
Let her go and don't look back. She made her choice and no matter what you think she feels deep down will not change anything. 

You will become stronger from this and happier too but you gotta let her go. Focus on the kids, NOT the kids and her and hopefully you too but just fucus on you and your kids. 

right now she thinks the grass is greener, typical of break ups today when another man or woman is involved isn't it.


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## showtime

Alright everybody, I'm pretty much over it and ready to move on with my own life here.

The issue I have is, I want to tell my W to leave me alone, but we have the kids and my W calls me or texts me everyday about them or some other BS. I know my W is stringing me along, but for no good reason in my eyes. From what our mutual friend tells me my W is gone and will never come back, even if her affair doen't work. This could be fog talk, but I do still care about my W because she did give me two beutiful kids, and I know one day soon all of this is going to blow up in her face. I feel bad for that, but what can you do? Obviously nothing, she will have to figure that out on her own.

So I guess the real question is, how do I keep the peace but at the same time telling her to get lost? Besides divorce...

Any suggestions would be welcomed!


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## Tanelornpete

> Any suggestions would be welcomed!


Just like we posted earlier:

*
(THIS IS THE STEP YOU SHOULD BE ON)*​
*The third step:* This involves what you've already begun. For the time being you will have to live with your spouse being unfaithful, and hurting you every day. In this step you will continue to be the person your spouse fell in love with - and grow to be more than that - someone they desire.

_HOWEVER! This step must be temporary. No one can continue to be hurt by the careless actions of their spouse indefinitely. At some point you will lose all love for your partner altogether - something you don't want to do. Perhaps set yourself six months or so. Stick by that limit._

There are two reasons for this step: one reason is that you will leave a lasting impression on your spouse about the person they were harming. The other reason is that you can face the next step with grace - knowing that you did all you really could.

It is quite possible during this step that your spouse will begin to fall in love with you again. That's the whole purpose of this step - to rekindle the love you once had, an to build on that.​
If, however, your spouse continues in the affair, and the end of your preset time allotment comes - your must move to the next step:​
*Fourth Step:* Here you will either move out, or move your spouse out of your life. You will break all contact with your spouse, and allow them to face the full consequences of their choice of someone else over you. This step is not one to be taken lightly, and there are some specific things you must do while setting this one up. Don't undertake it without advice from people who've had experience with it.​
*You haven't even reached this step and yet you want to leap beyond it! *

Why not pay attention to us?

In other words: quit trying to micromanage your wife, and get busy on yourself. Be the man she loved - without the things that upset her. You are supposed to be working on this third step: having set yourself a time limit, you work through that set amount of time, and then move to the fourth step.

You barely got through step two, you have tried for what, a week, to do 'Plan A' (step 3) - and now you want to bypass 'Plan B' (step 4) and go straight to divorce? Are you reacting from your emotions, or are you rationally, proactively, intentionally working through this crisis?

Could it be that one of the love busters you threw at your wife over and over and over and over was impetuous, random behavior? Reacting with virtual temper tantrums every time she didn't do something your way?

Why the hurry? Why the rush? Why not try what Turnera, Affaircare and myself have proposed? We've all seen this work, many times! Why abandon it, because things aren't going your way - when you want them? What's the adult approach to problem solving? 

----------------
Now playing: Andreas Vollenweider - The Five Sisters
via FoxyTunes


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## showtime

Also I might add, here is my W FB post about a half an hour ago...

I hate everything right now. And everything should cover all that I'm talking about!

And to give you an insight to what happened... My W went out today to try and find a place, obviously without any luck. And nobody will give TOM a chance. Again obviously because TOM doesn't deserve a chance, hence the exposure. And to top it all off, my W car was overheating while she was driving around town all day looking for a place to go.

I hate to say it but, it is almost comical at this point.


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## showtime

Tanelornpete said:


> Just like we posted earlier:
> 
> *
> (THIS IS THE STEP YOU SHOULD BE ON)*​
> *The third step:* This involves what you've already begun. For the time being you will have to live with your spouse being unfaithful, and hurting you every day. In this step you will continue to be the person your spouse fell in love with - and grow to be more than that - someone they desire.
> 
> _HOWEVER! This step must be temporary. No one can continue to be hurt by the careless actions of their spouse indefinitely. At some point you will lose all love for your partner altogether - something you don't want to do. Perhaps set yourself six months or so. Stick by that limit._
> 
> There are two reasons for this step: one reason is that you will leave a lasting impression on your spouse about the person they were harming. The other reason is that you can face the next step with grace - knowing that you did all you really could.
> 
> It is quite possible during this step that your spouse will begin to fall in love with you again. That's the whole purpose of this step - to rekindle the love you once had, an to build on that.​
> If, however, your spouse continues in the affair, and the end of your preset time allotment comes - your must move to the next step:​
> *Fourth Step:* Here you will either move out, or move your spouse out of your life. You will break all contact with your spouse, and allow them to face the full consequences of their choice of someone else over you. This step is not one to be taken lightly, and there are some specific things you must do while setting this one up. Don't undertake it without advice from people who've had experience with it.​
> *You haven't even reached this step and yet you want to leap beyond it! *
> 
> Why not pay attention to us?
> 
> In other words: quit trying to micromanage your wife, and get busy on yourself. Be the man she loved - without the things that upset her. You are supposed to be working on this third step: having set yourself a time limit, you work through that set amount of time, and then move to the fourth step.
> 
> You barely got through step two, you have tried for what, a week, to do 'Plan A' (step 3) - and now you want to bypass 'Plan B' (step 4) and go straight to divorce? Are you reacting from your emotions, or are you rationally, proactively, intentionally working through this crisis?
> 
> Could it be that one of the love busters you threw at your wife over and over and over and over was impetuous, random behavior? Reacting with virtual temper tantrums every time she didn't do something your way?
> 
> Why the hurry? Why the rush? Why not try what Turnera, Affaircare and myself have proposed? We've all seen this work, many times! Why abandon it, because things aren't going your way - when you want them? What's the adult approach to problem solving?
> 
> ----------------
> Now playing: Andreas Vollenweider - The Five Sisters
> via FoxyTunes


I can read your frustration, and I understand we have all put to much time and effort into this to throw it all away. I do get very impatient at times, and all of you know this. But I just feel so drained by all of this I can barely look at my W without being discusted. I suppose this is normal. With that being said, I will hang in here and try to work through this.

Thank you for keeping me focused when I lose sight of the objective!


----------



## Affaircare

So I'll say it. What happened? Last week you were going to be a man and stand firm for your family and marriage. Today you're ready to divorce her. 

My *guess* is that she's not doing what you want her to do fast enough so you're ready to throw in the towel, and showtime, I don't buy it. You're a bigger man than that. You can not control her and "make" her end the affair and return to the marriage on YOUR timetable!! To be completely honest, I believe this was likely one of the biggest issues in your marriage. Despite the fact that you deny it, over and over again you've demonstrated that you want it "your way or the highway" or you want it NOW! 

Sooooo...I say get back on track and focus--on YOU. See, showtime, up to this point I think about 90% of your actions have been to break up her and TOM. Now it's cool for you to stand for your marriage and do what you can to end the affair, but it's just not going to happen when you want it to or as fast as you want it to! This is why we keep telling you to work on YOU. So you looked at the ISFJ Personal Growth page and it was spot on? What's your plan? How are you going to address those issues?

For now, stop worrying about her and her issues--where she lives or doesn't live--and keep your focus on YOU and improving you.


----------



## showtime

Alright you guys. take it easy. This is why I am here for your guidance and wisdom. And yes I am very impatient, probably a valid issue in our marriage yes. So I will work on that part of my life. I need to find my inner peace. I'm gonna be Fonzie over here from now on ok. No more outburst of frustration.


----------



## Affaircare

LOL Okay so if you know that being impatient is something to work on...how you gonna do that?

Are you going to read a book about finding patience? Or learn to meditate or pray? How about learning some stress reduction? What's your plan? And bear in mind this is something for YOU to make you a better human being whether she stays or not. Soooo... how you want to deal with it?


----------



## Tanelornpete

showtime said:


> Also I might add, here is my W FB post about a half an hour ago...
> 
> I hate everything right now. And everything should cover all that I'm talking about!
> 
> And to give you an insight to what happened... My W went out today to try and find a place, obviously without any luck. And nobody will give TOM a chance. Again obviously because TOM doesn't deserve a chance, hence the exposure. And to top it all off, my W car was overheating while she was driving around town all day looking for a place to go.
> 
> I hate to say it but, it is almost comical at this point.


Um...ok....so when you wrote:

"...But I just feel so drained by all of this I can barely look at my W without being discusted...."


What about this is disgusting you? The fact that she can't find a place? The fact that her car is overheating? The Other Man doesn't deserve a chance? I'm confused. All of these things seem to be more lessons for your wife. Things to which you can offer the exact opposite - shouldn't you be encouraged?

I would like to point out something: why exactly are you taking notice of your wife's FB page? Isn't this sort of a kick in your face sort of behavior? Why do you want to get kicked in the face? What's the payoff? What do you get from this kind of feeling? 

Kinda reminds me of the guy who says, 'Every time I hit myself in the hand with a hammer, it hurts...' So......stop hitting yourself in the hand with a hammer...

My advice: stay away from her FB page. Quit dwelling on her actions. Work on yours instead.

----------------
Now playing: Stan Kenton - Artistry Jumps
via FoxyTunes


----------



## showtime

What I mean by I am discusted by my W is, her actions with TOM. That is understandable right? A valid feeling.

No I am not discusted by her not being able to find a place or her car.

And as everyone knows I do steer off course from time to time. I never said I was perfect and that is obvious. This is very overwhelming for me, especially with the kids involved. Please bare with me here. I am doing the best I can, but obviously need to do better. I am working on this very hard. And I know there is a long raod ahead of me...


----------



## turnera

showtime, have you ever been tested for ADD or ADHD? You seem to have trouble remembering what your goals are, what your next steps are. Maybe we're just seeing the fringes of your actions, so it seems like you're bouncing all over the place. But if you have a plan, let us know what it is! You keep saying you're listening, but the next day, it's like you didn't hear anything, and you're asking people what to do all over again.

So how about you write down - here - what your plans are: 
For this week
For this month
For the next 6 months


----------



## Affaircare

For this week I plan to work on my physical health by getting over this cold! I plan to work on self-discipline by writing an article for my blog, website and Infidelity Examiner page. I plan to write on TAM every day and make an Affaircare post on FB and Twitter every day. I plan to actually DO one romantic thing a day from LovingYou.com so Dear Hubby knows what I think of him. 

This Month I'm going to write a newsletter, send out a family letter, and celebrate my birthday. I'm going to continue the daily reading. And I'm going to get signed up for some ongoing coaching credits (there's a particular class I want to take with Dear Hubby). 

For the next 6 months I'm going to get signed up for and start that class. I'm going to become more involved in the daily lives of the kids and their schooling and discipline, by helping with waking them up, ask them about their daily hygiene (remind them ), and check to see how many assignments they've done throughout the day. 
I'm going to actually take some vacations! I have some business paperwork I need to file, and I'm going to get that filed and completed in the next 6 months. 

Now ... showtime... can you do an example like that for us?


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## Tanelornpete

showtime said:


> What I mean by I am discusted by my W is, her actions with TOM. That is understandable right? A valid feeling.


That is most certainly a valid reaction to thoughts about your wife's actions. All I'm asking is that you keep it to the feeling and don't act on it at all -except as a reminder that you have work to do.

(Actually, that process is the best means for changing how you act in regard to an emotion - when you experience an emotion, have a preset plan for what to do: i.e., when you feel disgusted by your wife's carrying-on, tell yourself 'That means I have work to do.' Over time, this will become a natural reaction (a habit) and you will see yourself improving by vast amounts.)

----------------
Now playing: Blues Brothers - Take You And Show You
via FoxyTunes


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## Affaircare

Okay you know what? When I read Tanelorn's post I thought "What in the world?"--it didn't make any sense to me. But I think I understand what he means now. I'll give an example and point out the whole process. 

Back in the day, I did not know how to appropriately display anger. Usually I just held it in until I was ready to explode, then someone would do something worthy of level 3 anger and I'd respond with level 7 because I'd been holding it in! (Anyone recognize that? ) Anyway, when I was learning about anger, one of the things that was first to do was to recognize what we do, physically, when we're getting angry. I personally will hold my breath and grit my teeth (as I literally am trying to keep it from coming out). Then it would feel like I had a weight on my chest! 

Step number two was to see if I could catch myself when I was holding my breath, gritting my teeth, or had a weight on my chest...try to recognize those physical things. THEN when I caught myself holding my breath, I was supposed to say "Am I getting angry? Is something not alright with me? Or do I need to remind myself to breathe and that it is okay to express myself?" 

That's what Tanelorn is talking about here. 

If you catch yourself with that sort of creepy feeling thinking about what your W is doing (or fear or impatience), that's your clue. Ask yourself, "Am I getting controlling and starting to focus on her? Am I driving myself nuts? Or do I need to focus on what *I* need to be doing?"


----------



## Affaircare

Hey I have a present for you:










LOL Here is a link to a forum for people who are ISFJ personality type: ISFJ FORUM - The Nurturers. There you can talk at will to other folks who are also your personality type and it is a KICK I'll tell ya!  Further, here's a page of ISFJ Articles all about characteristics, the key to ISFJ's, the best ISFJ Guide Ever Written...that kind of thing. 

So have some fun tonight learning more about you and keeping your focus and energy on YOU (and not her). Tell me ONE thing you learned about yourself tonight.


----------



## silk-butterfly

Showtime I hope you come back and tell us what you are deciding to do. Your thread is helping me to come to terms with what has happened to me so much.

I am at the last stages(I don`t want to say how long) of dealing with a similiar situation to yours but without answers for his behaviour hadn`t been able to move on completely.

Please please follow and listen to the sound advice your advisers are giving it is also true TOTHE T(the exact same words and behavior incredible!!!)and I didn`t even know he was cheating.

Imagine not knowing why and having your right taking away to respond accordingly thats what could have happened to you.It`s a different story and more devastating than knowing and dealing with it.

I wish you luck but think what if you hadn`t known. All those nasty comments!!!and you don`t know why. You have the answers but you may not have had....Thats how self absorbed some people can get. Thats why I feel disgusted too.

I wish I had found this site earlier.


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## showtime

Well the plan is still the plan. I am very impatient as everyone can tell. I just want all of this over right now. But I am trying very hard to be patient.

I am focusing on myself and on what I need to do to improve ME. I am doing some research on my personality and trying to help that part of my own life.

And just an update on what she is doing, and not that I am focusing on her, just thought everyone would like to know the latest...

TOM got kicked out of his aunts house and has moved to a town 120 miles away. My W told me this last night. For what reason she told me, I don't know. But I do know she has plans to drive up there on the weekends. (She didn't tell me this, I just know)

Meanwhile, when my W comes over I am nice to her and don't grill her about what she is doing. And at this point I don't want to know. I also have plans to go out tonite and try and have some fun, some ME time if you will. My W thinks I have a date or something, because she keeps asking me what I'm doing and where I am going. I can tell she is thinking about me because my W and I went to breakfast this morning and she was still asking me what I was doing. When we left we went to our seperate vehicles and before I opened my door to get in she said "If you want to tell me where you are going, I'm listening!"

So I don't know what that means, she is giving me so many mixed signals. But I am just going to sitback and ride this one out and hope for the best. All while working on improving ME for ME.


----------



## OneMarriedGuy

showtime said:


> Well the plan is still the plan. I am very impatient as everyone can tell. I just want all of this over right now. But I am trying very hard to be patient.
> 
> I am focusing on myself and on what I need to do to improve ME. I am doing some research on my personality and trying to help that part of my own life.
> 
> ...
> 
> So I don't know what that means, she is giving me so many mixed signals. But I am just going to sitback and ride this one out and hope for the best. All while working on improving ME for ME.


Keep rockin' the house showtime. Congrats are in order!


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## turnera

That's all excellent. He may decide she's not worth the effort, especially now that he got kicked out because of her.

The only thing I would add is that, when you two are together, if she pulls out her phone and starts texting, you gently reach over, close her phone, smile, and say, "Darling, this time is for our family, not another man, ok?"

She's acting that way cos she wants her cake and to eat it, too. Having two men fight over her is stroking her ego BIG TIME. So to think that you may be withdrawing, and looking elsewhere, is devastating to her fantasy of having two men fight over her. You CAN show her you want her - as long as she doesn't flaunt the affair in your face (showing her your boundaries and self respect) - and still be willing to move on with your life; i.e., not be mortally wounded if she leaves. IMO, that is the biggest wakeup call she can get. Do NOT tell her your plans!


----------



## tetcats

She is obviously getting something from this guy that you are not providing. Try to stop being so selfish; getting "COMFORTABLE". That is NOT working. If you really love her . . . I mean REALLY LOVE her, be the man she needs. Not some pathetic man who keeps reverting back to his old ways. Either BE A MAN or LET HER GO. If you REALLY love her, get some counseling, NOW.


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## showtime

Ok, Thanks turnera. I might add, last night when she told me that TOM had moved, she was obvioulsly in a bad mood. So I offered to take us all to dinner. Kids wanted taco bell, so that's where we went. And while we were waiting in line to order, my buddy called to discuss work tomorrow(remmber this was last night). It was a very short conversation because he asked if I was with my W, I said yes and I would call back later. So we get up to order, and my W starts flipping out on me asking me who it was, I said it was B, she said again, who was it. Right in front of the cashier. I looked at my W like come on, your gonna do this now??? And my W looked at me and said "I don't care, who was it!!!!" I jsut shook my head and tried to order, and she and the kids went to sit down. After I got the food I asked her what was wrong, she wanted to look at my phone to prove to her it was my friend B. I said I didn't have any reason to lie to her. So anyway we finished a very uncomfortable dinner and left. When we got home my W stormed out of the house and left. I think she thought it was a girl calling me. That is the only reason I think she would be so mad??

Again, another mixed signal.


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## OneMarriedGuy

Keep building on you. 

As soon as you are able quit talking to mutual friends about her. Quit initiating contact with her. If she contacts you, then be the YOU that you believe you should be, be kind, respectful, comment on her good qualities. But DO NOT allow yourself to be degraded by her. I think turnerea gave a great example with the cell phone.

There WILL come a time when instead of dying to get your wife back you will begin questioning WHY you would want your wife back. I'm not saying that you shouldn't want her back, just saying your self worth will build. 

To a degree I wish you were there right now because this would seem be an ideal time for you to draw a line in the sand with her. You are not, and that is OK, often things time themselves for a reason so let it wait until YOU are ready.

Best Wishes


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## turnera

Agreed. Also remember, however, that experts suggest you not continue the situation you are in without resolve for more than six months. If she hasn't come around after six months, you HAVE to move on.


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## showtime

OneMarriedGuy said:


> Keep building on you.
> 
> As soon as you are able quit talking to mutual friends about her. Quit initiating contact with her. If she contacts you, then be the YOU that you believe you should be, be kind, respectful, comment on her good qualities. But DO NOT allow yourself to be degraded by her. I think turnerea gave a great example with the cell phone.
> 
> There WILL come a time when instead of dying to get your wife back you will begin questioning WHY you would want your wife back. I'm not saying that you shouldn't want her back, just saying your self worth will build.
> 
> To a degree I wish you were there right now because this would seem be an ideal time for you to draw a line in the sand with her. You are not, and that is OK, often things time themselves for a reason so let it wait until YOU are ready.
> 
> Best Wishes


Yes! I am very close to that point. I don't want to talk to our mutual friend anymore because that just messes with my head. Also I haven't been initiating any contact with my W for the past few days now. Any time we talk it is because she called me or came to the house.


----------



## OneMarriedGuy

showtime said:


> Ok, Thanks turnera. I might add, last night when she told me that TOM had moved, she was obviously in a bad mood. So I offered to take us all to dinner. Kids wanted taco bell, so that's where we went. And while we were waiting in line to order, my buddy called to discuss work tomorrow(remember this was last night). It was a very short conversation because he asked if I was with my W, I said yes and I would call back later. So we get up to order, and my W starts flipping out on me asking me who it was, I said it was B, she said again, who was it. Right in front of the cashier. I looked at my W like come on, your gonna do this now??? And my W looked at me and said "I don't care, who was it!!!!" I just shook my head and tried to order, and she and the kids went to sit down. After I got the food I asked her what was wrong, she wanted to look at my phone to prove to her it was my friend B. I said I didn't have any reason to lie to her. So anyway we finished a very uncomfortable dinner and left. When we got home my W stormed out of the house and left. I think she thought it was a girl calling me. That is the only reason I think she would be so mad??
> 
> Again, another mixed signal.


Seriously, don't expect to be able to tie logic to her actions. It isn't a mixed signal, its a signal that says she thinks it is fine for her, just not for you. Her sense of morals and selfrighteousness is blurred beyond comprehension.


----------



## turnera

That's because she wants her cake and to eat it too. The high she is getting is from having two men want her. If you start looking elsewhere, you are RUINING it for her. And yes, she'll blame you!


----------



## showtime

turnera said:


> That's because she wants her cake and to eat it too. The high she is getting is from having two men want her. If you start looking elsewhere, you are RUINING it for her. And yes, she'll blame you!


So does that fuel my W fire?? Or make her think twice??


----------



## turnera

Until she is no longer contacting OM, it makes her furious with you. Cos you're not playing her game correctly.

The best thing you can do is keep working on yourself, show her that you want her BUT you have your own life, don't let her disrespect you by contacting OM around you, and work on your goals.

Did you set them up like we asked?


----------



## OneMarriedGuy

showtime said:


> Yes! I am very close to that point. I don't want to talk to our mutual friend anymore because that just messes with my head. Also I haven't been initiating any contact with my W for the past few days now. Any time we talk it is because she called me or came to the house.


Keep with it. BTW, I'm not suggesting you build any ill will against your wife during this time (and am not seeing that you are either - just mentioning this) but rather that you build a lot of good will toward yourself.

Should we ever meet - you get a beer from me - I think you are a standup guy:smthumbup:


----------



## showtime

Yes I have set some goals for myself.

One is to work even harder to provide for the house and the family, so I can prove to my W and myself I can run a household on my own. Also I have shown my W wether she sees it or not that I can take care of all the household needs.(laundry, dishes, etc.) And I also have goals to figure out my personality flaws and understand where I need to change for the better. And I have taken over all the paperwork in decideing where our oldest is going to kindergarten this year. Even though it is both my W and I's desicion, I have stepped up and got the ball rolling. All while heading up and coaching the soccer team. I also have some long term goals as well to finish up some projects I have been putting off for a long time.


----------



## jitterbug

Hang in there, amigo......

Your W is currently doing what many cheaters do--projecting.

In her mind, she figures if it was that easy for her to cheat, it's probably just as easy for you. (even if that's light years away from the truth) It's absolutely not fair to you.....but actually it's a good sign.

She's worried and jealous that you may start looking elsewhere.
That right there shows she's still emotionally invested in you. I would be much more worried if she was showing indifference.
(which is the opposite of love, rather than hate....)

wishing you my best......jb


----------



## Tanelornpete

> Keep with it. BTW, I'm not suggesting you build any ill will against your wife during this time (and am not seeing that you are either - just mentioning this) but rather that you build a lot of good will toward yourself.


I do see a double standard being put forth right now - something you might want to consider. You expect and want her to be open and honest with you about who she is with, who she texts, calls, etc., and yet you are doing your best to pull a 'tit-for-tat' with her - you won't show her your calls, etc.

You are still married. The idea of being transparent with your spouse is not an 'only if you have an affair' - it should be ongoing and permanent. If my wife wants to see my email, it is always open to her. If she wants to see what I'm chatting about - it is on record for her. We hide nothing (except birthday secrets, etc. - and we arrange that ahead of time...)

There is absolutely no reason she should not be able to see who you are talking to. Nor to see with whom you eat dinner, chat, etc. By showing her your records openly and willingly, you clearly demonstrate the difference between her behavior and yours. You are doing what EVERY husband should do.

In case you missed it, there's a Love Buster called Disrespectful Judgments, which is where you pass across to your spouse that they aren't worthy of the things you may require of them (among other permutations). There's also one called Independent Behavior, in which the conduct of one spouse ignores the feelings and interest of the other spouse. It's a problem because we don't feel the pain our spouse feels when we are inconsiderate -- all we feel is the pleasure gained from activities that are only in our best interest. 

While what your wife is doing most certainly falls into those categories - this does not give you license to do them yourself - unless you want you marriage to collapse. 

You are supposed to be in 'Plan A' right now - filling your wife's Emotional Needs, while avoiding Love Busters. Not only that, but you _should_ be doing all you can to demonstrate the way you want her to treat you. Refusing requests like these from your wife - requests that should be_ automatically filled_ in a healthy marriage - on the basis of 'well, she's doing it!' is at the very least not a mature approach. At the worst, it will drive even bigger wedges between you and she.

My opinion only.

----------------
Now playing: Govi - Magellan's Beat
via FoxyTunes


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## showtime

Well my W got an apartment, section 8 housing.


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## turnera

Roflmao


----------



## showtime

Yeah I know. It's not a bad apartment though?


----------



## Affaircare

Hey Showtime, I'm just curious. Did she get *approved* for section 8 housing? Or did she actually move into one? 

The reason I ask is that once you are approved, you usually wait for months--sometimes up to a year--before you actually get a place. So I'm a little :scratchhead:


----------



## nice777guy

Pete - this is the 'double standard' issue that I've been trying to think through lately.

The way I see this - in a normal marriage, under normal circumstances, I get a call and I have no problem telling my wife who it is, once I've hung up, finished placing my order, paying and sitting down with my food. And - in a normal marriage - me simply telling her is enough - there should be no need to see my phone.

Seems to me like she was trying to exert control over him in this situation. I don't think "show me your phone" is a reasonable thing for her to ask (actually sounded more like a demand) in this case.



Tanelornpete said:


> I do see a double standard being put forth right now - something you might want to consider. You expect and want her to be open and honest with you about who she is with, who she texts, calls, etc., and yet you are doing your best to pull a 'tit-for-tat' with her - you won't show her your calls, etc.
> 
> You are still married. The idea of being transparent with your spouse is not an 'only if you have an affair' - it should be ongoing and permanent. If my wife wants to see my email, it is always open to her. If she wants to see what I'm chatting about - it is on record for her. We hide nothing (except birthday secrets, etc. - and we arrange that ahead of time...)
> 
> There is absolutely no reason she should not be able to see who you are talking to. Nor to see with whom you eat dinner, chat, etc. By showing her your records openly and willingly, you clearly demonstrate the difference between her behavior and yours. You are doing what EVERY husband should do.
> 
> In case you missed it, there's a Love Buster called Disrespectful Judgments, which is where you pass across to your spouse that they aren't worthy of the things you may require of them (among other permutations). There's also one called Independent Behavior, in which the conduct of one spouse ignores the feelings and interest of the other spouse. It's a problem because we don't feel the pain our spouse feels when we are inconsiderate -- all we feel is the pleasure gained from activities that are only in our best interest.
> 
> While what your wife is doing most certainly falls into those categories - this does not give you license to do them yourself - unless you want you marriage to collapse.
> 
> You are supposed to be in 'Plan A' right now - filling your wife's Emotional Needs, while avoiding Love Busters. Not only that, but you _should_ be doing all you can to demonstrate the way you want her to treat you. Refusing requests like these from your wife - requests that should be_ automatically filled_ in a healthy marriage - on the basis of 'well, she's doing it!' is at the very least not a mature approach. At the worst, it will drive even bigger wedges between you and she.
> 
> My opinion only.
> 
> ----------------
> Now playing: Govi - Magellan's Beat
> via FoxyTunes


----------



## Tanelornpete

> Pete - this is the 'double standard' issue that I've been trying to think through lately.
> 
> The way I see this - in a normal marriage, under normal circumstances, I get a call and I have no problem telling my wife who it is, once I've hung up, finished placing my order, paying and sitting down with my food. And - in a normal marriage - me simply telling her is enough - there should be no need to see my phone.
> 
> Seems to me like she was trying to exert control over him in this situation. I don't think "show me your phone" is a reasonable thing for her to ask (actually sounded more like a demand) in this case.


I completely understand what you are saying. My wife and I talked this over as well. I agree that in a normal marriage, you simply telling her is enough - but that doesn't mean that the phone is therefore off limits. If for some strange reason my wife wants to see anyway - why not let her? 

In a normal marriage, you trust each other and your word is good. At the same time, you don't hide passwords, email, etc. That is transparent honesty. It shouldn't be an issue, but on the other hand, there is also no reason why she CAN'T take a look at the phone, is there?

However, in THIS case, there is a difference. This marriage has not returned to normal. And Showtime can be a big example to his wife in what he means by honesty and openness - no, he is not obliged to show her his phone. But there is both NO HARM in letting her see that he is, indeed, telling her the truth (and also demolishing any attempt to project her lies onto him) and ALSO in leading her to see how things would be if she were with him

As for it being a 'controlling' mechanism - quite possibly - but showing her that he was telling the truth causes her plans to backfire. Over time she will do this less and less, the more it makes her look foolish. It's a lesson she could use....


----------



## Affaircare

nice777guy said:


> Pete - this is the 'double standard' issue that I've been trying to think through lately.
> 
> The way I see this - in a normal marriage, under normal circumstances, I get a call and I have no problem telling my wife who it is, once I've hung up, finished placing my order, paying and sitting down with my food. And - in a normal marriage - me simply telling her is enough - there should be no need to see my phone.
> 
> Seems to me like she was trying to exert control over him in this situation. I don't think "show me your phone" is a reasonable thing for her to ask (actually sounded more like a demand) in this case.


Actually, since this is germane to the conversation with showtime, do you mind if I jump in and address both of you? 

I personally think that the stunningly perfect way to handle this would have been to say "I would be happy to show you my phone to prove who called, assuming that you would also be that open with me." This would indicate willingness to not hide things and also place responsibility where it lies. 

HOWEVER I know niceguy that you struggle with the concept of having to be open when you weren't the one who cheated. Here's the big issue I see (and always have): if it is good for the cheating person to show phones, prove who they're talking to, and be open...it is ALSO good for any spouse anywhere to show phones, prove who they're talking to, and be open. The issue is not so much "show phones or not" as "am I willing to be as transparent as I expect my partner to be"? 

Clearly showtime's wife is not being transparent. Clearly this one time of not showing her the phone may have planted a seed in her mind that he can look elsewhere and won't sit on his hands waiting for her (which is not necessarily bad). BUT here's the fact: in this marriage someone has to take the lead and lead by example. Do you want a spouse that is open with you? Be open with them! Do you want a spouse who tells you their honest thoughts? Be honest with them! Are you trying to tell your spouse they can't go to happy hour by themselves? Then hold yourself to that same standard! Even if you didn't "do wrong" you know for a fact that kind of behavior is a very slippery slope, so why put yourself at risk? Because you didn't do wrong? Because why should you be snooped on? I'll tell you why--because when you volunteered to marry, you also volunteered to share ALL of yourself and become *ONE* with that other person. 

So that's just my two cents.


----------



## nice777guy

In this case I think it was reasonable to NOT show her the phone. I think you are right - that it put some doubt into her head and maybe scared her a bit and that is a good thing.

I've been honest and open and transparent for 15 years. If that isn't enough "leading by example", then I must be doing something wrong. And I've refused to sink to her level, even though it can be very, very tempting at times.

Briefly for me - there really are no happy hours, I don't usually leave the house unless I'm going to work or my two young kids are with me, I haven't locked any e-mail accounts and spend so little time on Facebook that I would be more than willing to delete my account tomorrow if I thought it would make things better. I wear my emotions on my sleeve - if anything, I need to learn to hold back a bit. Almost all of my calls and texts are to and from my wife. In fact, my marriage therapist has told me I need to try to be a bit more "mysterious." I'm an introvert, so when she does have the kids, the thing that appeals to me the most is a quiet house. I think that keyloggers and polygraphs are an invasion of privacy, and that if you are THAT point you may as well call it quits anyway.

But in *this* case - I just have a picture of her barking orders at him, in front of their kids, while he's trying to deal with a poor 15 year old Taco Bell cashier. Maybe I'm projecting a bit of my own situation into his, but this still sounds less about transparency and more about control to me.


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## Affaircare

10-4, that was the image I had too. And I personally found it a little humorous that she'd flip like that in front of the Taco Bell cashier considering how SHE has been acting! 

That's why I told Tanelorn I didn't think it did any harm and may have done a little good to plant that seed. Now, to continue playing a game, hiding or denying = not so good. But this little incident? I thought he did a pretty good job of thinking on his feet.


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## nice777guy

btw showtime - I just started looking at your thread today; I can definitely relate; sounds like you are doing your best - hang in there!


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## showtime

So to shed some light on the T bell incident. When I refused to show my W the phone, it was a reaction, more of an instinct. Because I knew she thought it was a girl. Maybe the wrong move, but quite possibly a good move. And I'll tell you why it was good. She has been all over me, wondering what I was doing, where I was going, stuff like that. And what does that mean?? She is thinking about ME, instead of TOM. And I went out last night for a couple beers with some friends. I ended up telling my W tonite what I did. But I did leave a little mystery as to who was there and stuff like that. So I don't know if that's good or bad, but she is or at least was thinking about me and considering me moving on. And we all went grocery shopping tonite, which was kind of weird but a decent time to walk around and talk as a family.

As far as my W apartment, I don't know for sure about the section 8 aproval or what, but she has a key. And my W probably won't be able to actually move in for at least a week.


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## showtime

Just a little update here. I talked to TOMs aunt again and, TOMs Aunt called TOMs Mom and told her what was going on. My W has plans to go with TOM to see his Mom. And TOMs Mom was going to have a talk with my W and see who was telling the truth. But TOMs Aunt says that TOMs Mom is one of those people that says, "well as long as he is happy". So I don't know what good that will do. Also my W called me today and was obviously super mad at me, and said if I was trying to get her back this isn't the way to do it. And she will never come back to me. That is the fog talk I hope. And I know you told me to stay away from her FB page but, here's what it says today...
F-you.... take ur misery and run with urself.. just leave me out of it!!

Also me and my W are no longer friends on FB.


So what do you think now?


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## jitterbug

I'm inclined to believe it's the fog talking. She still hasn't felt the icy sting of reality yet,,,,

My guess is that will happen when TOM goes in for his military service, and their relationship becomes long-distance. She'll have to sit and wonder if he's going to have enough ......."integrity"........ to be faithful to her.....

I predict that will be a cold bucket of water in her face.(Along with struggling to make ends meet.)

For your sake, Showtime, I hope she comes to her senses sooner.....but from everything you've indicated, she's in a super dense fog right now. It's gonna take a strong wind to blow it away.


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## Tanelornpete

> So what do you think now?


Well.....



> Also me and my W are no longer friends on FB.


You should have done this last week...



> Just a little update here. I talked to TOMs aunt again and, TOMs Aunt called TOMs Mom and told her what was going on...[snip]...Also my W called me today and was obviously super mad at me, and said if I was trying to get her back this isn't the way to do it. And she will never come back to me. That is the fog talk I hope.


Right now, you are supposed to be doing Plan A - that's the part of the recovery process where you fill her Emotional Needs, while ending all Love Busters. 

You are no longer doing any Exposure - you moved beyond that step, and this raises the_ huge _question: why on earth would you call The Other Man's Aunt? You have already let the world know of the affair!

Just _how_ is calling the Other Man's Aunt filling her emotional needs - or ending any Love Busters?

I think this may be exactly the reverse! My guess is that one of the biggest problems you had in your marriage was a tendency you have to 'manage' your wife - to the extent that she withdrew from you in the first place...In other words, controlling behavior is a LOVE BUSTER, not an EMOTIONAL NEED. 

Right now, you are supposed to be working on YOU. Not managing - or micro-managing - your wife's daily activities. You are supposed to be creating a home environment that is MORE (not LESS!) desirable than the life she has right now. 

A) You are not gathering evidence that there is an affair. You already know there is one. Hence, no need to follow your wife around checking up on her.

B) You are not exposing the affair -the purpose of that is to make sure that the people most affected are no longer being lied to. You have finished that. Hence, no need to repeatedly contact people and reiterate the affair. 

So...again - are you TRYING to cause more problems? Or are you now aiming at a divorce? Every time you do something that creates a deeper pit, the more work you have to do to repair the damage!

Stop it!!!

----------------
Now playing: Rod Stewart - My Way Of Giving
via FoxyTunes


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## turnera

Hmmm...I agree... and I disagree. Yes, you should be looking pretty close to Jesus about now. So she can see what she's giving up.

However, she is still moving forward with continuing her affair. IMO, that means that YOU still have the right to FIGHT the affair...until you are divorced. That includes keeping everyone informed that she is thumbing her nose at you and keeping up with TOM. 

Don't make continuing the affair easy or comfortable. While still looking wonderful in YOUR home with YOUR kids. Show her the dichotomy: pain vs. healing.


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## showtime

Yeah I screwed that up. My W is super pissed at me now! I don't know how I'm going to redeem myself from this one. She would barely even talk to me when she came over. Usually something like this would happen and she would really rip on me. Now she was ice cold. Dang it!!!!!


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## losinglove

Don't beat yourself up over it. Learn from it so next time you start to do something like that you can stop yourself.

Keep working on you, use this as something that you can use on yourself to improve yourself.


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## Tanelornpete

> Yeah I screwed that up. My W is super pissed at me now! I don't know how I'm going to redeem myself from this one. She would barely even talk to me when she came over. Usually something like this would happen and she would really rip on me. Now she was ice cold. Dang it!!!!!


Just take a deep breath, and take your time. Everyone knows about the affair - right now, just back off and let her experience it. If you quit giving her fuel to ignore what this guy is really like, she'll start to see the difference between you two. So, just concentrate on you. 

Time wounds all heels. Wait - reverse that


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## showtime

Alright, thank you guys. I am freaking out a little bit right now.

Tomorrow we have a soccer game, which is always fun, putting on a face in front of all the parents and kids like we are a happy family. I think that is the hardest part for me. Which is going out in public like that, knowing what my W is doing to me and our family. It takes all I have to keep my cool and get through it. And after I get home I feel so emotionally drained. It is a very weird feeling. And it's only after soccer practice or games when it really hits me. And it's not an angry emotion, it's more like a how could she do this to our family kind of thing.


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## Affaircare

:iagree: Still ya gotta love Tanelorn... "Stop it!" :rofl:

Okay showtime I have a few questions for ya that I think will help clarify some of this in your head. In the first step you have a hunch that there is an affair but you aren't dead positive...so step one is "Gather Evidence." Now we all know that even if you catch them in bed they deny it, so the evidence is to prove to you that something is going on. 

Next, step two is "Exposure." The hope with exposure is to bring the affair out of hiding and into the light of day, and hopefully end it kind of quickly. To do that you contact the folks who would be affected by the affair and who might be pro-marriage; folks who will support you as you go through this and folks who might help your wife come back. Right? So you did that and the folks who need to know, do know. Right now it seems that there have been consequences to bringing it to light but your wife is being stubborn and the affair hasn't stopped, right?

So the NEXT step--the one I thought you were in--is "Carrot and Stick" or "Plan A". In this step you would concentrate on two things: you would work on yourself making yourself a better man, husband, and father...and you would add love kindlers where you can. Carrot=great man, home, father with you and kindlers; Stick=not "having cake and eating it", not enabling the affair, not helping with the divorce, allowing her to experience natural consequences and not "covering for her". 

So here are my questions. 

You wrote: _"I talked to TOMs aunt again and, TOMs Aunt called TOMs Mom and told her what was going on. " _ Which part of Plan A/ Carrot & Stick phase is this? Is this adding love kindlers to your wife's fire? Or is it working on you and ending Love Extinguishers? WHY did you call the OM's aunt? Why is that any of your business? (I mean very indirect it is because she is your wife and the OM's aunt is friends with your mom, but you were calling her to interfere with your wife....right?) 



> My W has plans to go with TOM to see his Mom. And TOMs Mom was going to have a talk with my W and see who was telling the truth. But TOMs Aunt says that TOMs Mom is one of those people that says, "well as long as he is happy". So I don't know what good that will do


Just a thought here. Did you find any of this out directly from your W or the OM? If not, then look at it. ALL of it is literally hearsay and could be considered gossip and interference. How does hearsay and gossip add Love Kindlers to your W? How about meet her Emotional Needs? In what way does hearsay and gossip make you a better man, husband and father or end Love Extinguishers? 

Do you sort of see what I'm saying here showtime? You are not staying focused on what you are supposed to be doing and you ARE staying focused on things that are causing damage! So whilst, yep, a lot of what your W says right now is fog, in this regard it isn't. You are NOT being the man you can be--loving, charming, funny, interesting, and the love of her life. You are though definitely doing things that are extinguishing her love. 

This part...Plan A/Carrot & Stick...is a little tricky because on the one hand you don't want to take a lot of what the disloyal person says as "true" since their point of view is so out of whack. But at the same time, this is DEFINITELY not the time to be showing your jealous, interfering, controlling side. If you motivation is to "make" your wife do something, she will grow to resent you and it will NOT create love!

So here's how you tell what to do and what not to do. It is your marriage as turnera said, and you have the right and responsibility for YOU (not her). Thus, you keep your side of the street clean, YOU do the right thing, YOU make the pro-marriage choices that will defend your children and finances. You don't tell her what to do, what to choose, what to clean, or anything--that is up to her. If she is determined to continue the affair and just as stubborn as all getout, you can not stop her. BUT...you can choose to not *enable* her choice or hide her choice from others. 

It's hard, isn't it? 

Here's what it will be like on your side. For a while now, it will get kind of quiet. You will stop focusing on your W and what she's up to. You will remove her FB and email and phone # from your contacts and at every possible moment focus on YOU and what YOU should be doing. You will be the ultimate SHOWTIME and shine like sun. Work on your art or music again. Enjoy some of the things YOU enjoy again. Do not play games with her or "make her jealous" but honestly... to some degree let her go and stew in her own sauce for a while. Focus on your kids, go to a parenting class, go to a support group for dads, go to a bible study (or religious study as appropriate for you)...all that stuff that is good and wonderful about you, return to that. 

THEN don't contact your W very much. Let her contact you, and when she does, be positive, handsome, interesting and have the financial support to take the family out for some fun or buy a present. If she's been stewing in her life, she'll have an empty section 8 apartment, can't pay her bills or enjoy life, doesn't have much time with her kids, and her "man" will be thousands of miles away and she'll know he's got the morals of a snake. Let HER compare the great, shiney showtime to the lowlife, dirty OM. 

Right now by doing the stuff you're doing, she compares you two, and OM lets her have her own thoughts and feelings, works *with* her not against her, and understands her--whereas you try to control her, try to force her to break up, try to take away her kids, and don't care about her one hoot! That is not the impression you want to give is it? NO!! 

So focus. EVERY MINUTE focus. Focus on two things: 
1) You work on YOU (so you can rekindle the love and stop the extinguishers) and 
2) Do not control her but do not enable her. 

Got that? Does it make sense? If you have a question, ask. Your assignments tonight are a) Tell me what you intend to do to work on you (not her and not ending her affair). Taking a course? Getting a book? Whatcha gonna do? and then b) What are you going to do to stop contacting her and following her around and interfering in her life? How do you plan to avoid the temptation to call when it's none of your business anymore? What's your plan?


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## Affaircare

Oh quick additional note. 

This part that Tanelorn said is super important (and he just slipped it in there): 



> If you quit giving her fuel to ignore what this guy is really like, she'll start to see the difference between you two. So, just concentrate on you.


See the idea of the exposure is partially to bring the "fantasy" to the light of day right? That is to say, it's held up to the truth and in the light of the truth, the two affair people can start to see each other's wrinkles, warts, and it's not all love and mush. 

Right now, because of some of the things that have been done, rather than having to face the truth of the ugliness of the affair and the consequences, your wife has been focusing that anger and energy on you and your behavior. Okay in more simple terms: 

If you keep interfering she can keep being mad at YOU and won't have to face being disappointed with OM. 

If you stop interfering and she is still mad and lonely and unhappy...who does she blame then? Herself?  Not just no but HECK NO! The OM!! Then she will see he can't meet her needs and see some of the truth of him... and he will see some of her less lovely side (that we all have by the way) and see that she's not this fabulous fantasy lovebabe. 

You're actions are actually being counter-productive here.  See what I mean?


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## showtime

Ok Affaircare.

I am going to work on my classic car I have in the garage. I need to put a carpet kit in it which my W gave me for X mas a couple years ago. Even though my W says she hates that car. And it's not because I spend too much time tinkering with it. My W says it is because te whole family can't fit in it. There is four of us and it onlky has room for three. But what my W doesn't understand, and I should have probably talked to her about this MORE seriously is, my father had the same car when I was a kid and I loved cruising around in that car. Well my brother crashed that car into a telephone pole when he was 16, and my father died when I was 17. And I loved that car and never got it, my brother did and destoyed it. So when me andmy W first got together I bought this car, and have been restoring it here and there ever since. But I don't think my W understands the connection I have with this car and my childhood. And at this point I would sacrifice the car for my family. So long story short, I am going to finish the carpet kit for it this week.

And I haven't been contacting my wife at all for the last four days. I only talk to her when she calls ME or texts ME. I don't call her and see how she is doing or anything like that.


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## Tanelornpete

ooooh!!!! What car??????? (Beloved hobby of mine that, unfortunately, we aren't able to participate in right now...)


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## Affaircare

Okay that sounds like a fun thing to do for you. That will be something you enjoy that you sort of, partly "gave up" doing as much of it for the family, right? Can you maybe do some with your kids? Have them hand your wrenches or something? (I'm sorry--I forget how old your kids are, but I learned how to repair cars from my dad...and shop class ...and now I love old cars.) 

Do you have a plan for something you can do to improve you as a person? Make you a better man (or using turnera's term...closer to looking like Jesus compared to OM )? When was the last time you got a self-improvement workbook or took a workshop on something that's a weakness of yours? I have a good suggestion--buy the Love Dare book! Or if you aren't great with your finances maybe get a book about how to simplify your bills. 
Please let me know our plan for this okay?

And finally--when your W tries to draw you into her drama -or- when you're tempted to get involved with her affairs...what is your plan how to stop yourself and get back on focus? Here's an idea: before you do anything, ask yourself "Does this focus on me or meet one of my wife's love kindlers?" If the answer is no, just walk away literally. Put it down and walk away. 

Or if you're a schedule kind of guy, make a plan for each moment of your day so that you're so busy with your own plans you don't have time to interfere with her life. 

Or if you are not a schedule kind of guy, put up little reminder notes on your cell and PC monitor that say "Does this work on me? Does this build love? If not...don't do it!" I used to write that on my mirror in the bath so that I'd see my face and read that


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## showtime

Tanelornpete said:


> ooooh!!!! What car??????? (Beloved hobby of mine that, unfortunately, we aren't able to participate in right now...)


1965 El Camino...


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## showtime

And the kids are 5 and 3. And they love helping me with the car. I ask for their help with projects all the time.

And I will get the love dare book. And when my W starts her bull I usually ignore it. And she knows what buttons to push too!!! But for the past few days I haven't fallen into it at all. The past few days have been really nice considering. Until I blew it today. I think it will take some time to recover from todays events : (


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## turnera

El Camino is a classic car? I guess my 74 Nova SS is too, then.

Sounds like a good plan, showtime.


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## showtime

turnera said:


> El Camino is a classic car? I guess my 74 Nova SS is too, then.
> 
> Sounds like a good plan, showtime.


I think any car over 20 years old is considered classic.


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## Affaircare

showtime said:


> And the kids are 5 and 3. And they love helping me with the car. I ask for their help with projects all the time.
> 
> And I will get the love dare book. And when my W starts her bull I usually ignore it. And she knows what buttons to push too!!! But for the past few days I haven't fallen into it at all. The past few days have been really nice considering. Until I blew it today. I think it will take some time to recover from todays events : (


'65 El Camino! RAWR! Are you going to muscle it up or restore to like factory spec? You know...you can put a 327 cubic inch 300 horsepower V-8 in there  That was an option that year, and if I remember correctly that will pull heavy G if you step on it. 

And regarding your W and her bull...well we all of those days showtime. It happens. Just wipe it off your shoe and move on.


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## Tanelornpete

turnera said:


> El Camino is a classic car? I guess my 74 Nova SS is too, then.
> 
> Sounds like a good plan, showtime.


The Classic Car Club of America maintains 20 years to 45 years old for a car to be a classic (over 45 years fall into the Antique Class). (Classic car - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)


And that Nova is a GREAT car as well - specially with that 350...mmmmm


Two great cars! What a nice evening...

----------------
Now playing: The Who - The Good's Gone
via FoxyTunes


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## showtime

Well the soccer game went well! We won even though they don't keep score. And afterwards I loaded the kids in the car, my W gave them kisses and hugs, and gave me a hug too. And then the kids and I went out of town to an old school bmx gathering and BBQ. It was fun, we rode bikes and ate some food and got away from it all. This evening I am going to paint the kids nails (obviously girls). That should be fun. It will be the first time I've done that.


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## Feelingalone

Showtime,

Soccer can be so fun for the kids. On the painting don't forget to stay within the lines!!!! LOL. I'll put up with the stitches and broken bones of a boy -- I don't think I could handle girls. 

You're doing great. Keep listening to AC, TP and Turnera they are guiding you well. 

Peace.


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## nice777guy

My girls can do their own nails (10 can do/help 7), but I did use a curling iron for the first time in my life the other day!

Keep up the good work and ENJOY THOSE KIDS!!!


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## showtime

Thanks everybody. The kids are fun, they love spending time with me and I love spending time with them. 

The girls and I went to Wal-Mart and I let them pick out their own colors. They chose purple and pink. So I alternated between the two colors on their nails, if that makes sense. It was fun, and they loved it. And our littlest one (3) asked if mom would love it? I think my W will appreciate it.(Maybe?)


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## Feelingalone

Showtime,

It doesn't matter whether she appreciates it -- only if your girls do!!!


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## OhGeesh

showtime said:


> Well the soccer game went well! We won even though they don't keep score. And afterwards I loaded the kids in the car, my W gave them kisses and hugs, and gave me a hug too. And then the kids and I went out of town to an old school bmx gathering and BBQ. It was fun, we rode bikes and ate some food and got away from it all. This evening I am going to paint the kids nails (obviously girls). That should be fun. It will be the first time I've done that.


What!! Little girls rule, doll them up, nails, dress up, dolls, they love it......I wish i still had baby girls :-(


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## turnera

OhGeesh said:


> What!! Little girls rule, doll them up, nails, dress up, dolls, they love it......I wish i still had baby girls :-(


 My D19 wouldn't let me doll her up. If I put a dress on her, she'd pull it off and go get sweats. And if I tried to brush her hair, she would cry. One time, I told her if she didn't keep her hair brushed, I was going to cut it off (that's what my mom did). So one day, I took her to get her hair cut, and had them cut it up to her chin. She was shocked! I said, I warned you; brushing hair was your job and you didn't complete it. From that day on, it stayed brushed!

Now she's all girl; heels are her best friend. I just wish I got to enjoy it when she was younger, lol.


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## showtime

Alright everybody, I don't understand why my W goes and spends the night with TOM, and then she wants to hang out with us today. And I am just supposed to be nice to her and act like I am happy??

Some insight or advice on this would be very helpful before she gets here.


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## turnera

She wants her cake and to eat it, too. She wants to believe that she can spend the next 20 years sleeping with him and getting to pretend to be mommy by day. 

That is why we tell you that you HAVE to set a time limit, at which time you move on and divorce her.


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## showtime

turnera said:


> She wants her cake and to eat it, too. She wants to believe that she can spend the next 20 years sleeping with him and getting to pretend to be mommy by day.
> 
> That is why we tell you that you HAVE to set a time limit, at which time you move on and divorce her.


Yeah I know it sucks!!!!!


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## OhGeesh

Exactly!! Turnera!!!

She wants to see the kids be a part of their life and then be with TOM.........I remember years ago before my wife and I were married we were broken up (had a child) and she was seeing someone else. She would act totally normal around me, but at the time wanted nothing to do with me. I wanted to be with her though. She said she had to go test the waters before coming back it was part of her journey nothing I could do about it......of course I played too but still.

Not comparing a young woman at the time to a adult woman your wife... just saying that I can relate to that. "Hey, how are you guys!" persona like nothing is wrong.

Good luck I would continue to work on YOU, THE KIDS, AND MOVE FORWARD.


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## showtime

My W is 26. And hardly a woman.


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## OhGeesh

Your younger than I thought!! Well than very well could be then......my wife at the time was a couple years younger than that, but 26 is still young.


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## showtime

Well my W apartment is conveintly located a couple blocks from our house now. And me and the kids were on our way home from the park and guess what. TOM was there, probably helping her get the place ready. This whole deal is just tearing me apart!!!


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## turnera

Just to clarify, she is getting NO money from you, correct?

No groceries, no furniture from the house, no towels, no nick-nacks, NOTHING?


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## showtime

turnera said:


> Just to clarify, she is getting NO money from you, correct?
> 
> No groceries, no furniture from the house, no towels, no nick-nacks, NOTHING?


No I haven't given her a dime, or nothing from the house either.

How am I supposed to play this? You know TOM is going to end up moving in with her because he doesn't have anywhere else to go.


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## Tanelornpete

showtime said:


> How am I supposed to play this? You know TOM is going to end up moving in with her because he doesn't have anywhere else to go.


Yes, and how are you progressing in following the 'Plan A' you are supposed to be doing?

I know it is hard NOT to dwell on everything your wife is doing, but it is also getting in the way of what you should be doing:

*The third step:* This involves what you've already begun. _*For the time being you will have to live with your spouse being unfaithful, and hurting you every day.*_ In this step you will continue to be the person your spouse fell in love with - and grow to be more than that - someone they desire.

HOWEVER! This step must be temporary. No one can continue to be hurt by the careless actions of their spouse indefinitely. At some point you will lose all love for your partner altogether - something you don't want to do. Perhaps set yourself six months or so. _Stick by that limit_.

There are two reasons for this step: one reason is that you will leave a lasting impression on your spouse about the person they were harming. The other reason is that you can face the next step with grace - knowing that you did all you really could.

It is quite possible during this step that your spouse will begin to fall in love with you again. That's the whole purpose of this step - to rekindle the love you once had, an to build on that.

If, however, your spouse continues in the affair, and the end of your preset time allotment comes - your must move to the next step.....​
So she moves this guy in with her, and he lives off of her income for a few months. So what? As long as you are doing what you are supposed to be doing, she will begin to notice the difference. If, on the other hand, you spend your time trying to sabotage her actions, she will continue to ignore the Other Guy's flaws - gloss over them, magnify yours, justify her actions, and pretty much make excuses for all his flaws - at your expense. 

Keep on track (=

----------------
Now playing: Acoustic Alchemy - Reference Point
via FoxyTunes


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## showtime

Yes I am staying on track. My W came over here a little bit ago. I asked what she was doing just to make some conversation. And she said, "Don't act like you didn't see us". I said "ok". And left it at that. 

So I will just sit back and be the best I can be. And hope it plays out. This does however make me furious inside, as expected, but I am able to control it now, where I couldn't before. But every once and a while I do need a reminder of where I am supposed to be. And that reminder seems to be needed daily.

It's wierd, I miss my W so much. And at the same time I am growing to dislike her to say the least.


----------



## OhGeesh

RWB said:


> How long is enough enough? 3 months, 6. Her actions and behavior can only be reasoned with for so long. Showtime don't give up on yourself or her, but I would most definitely be getting my ducks in a row.


I agree 100% While RWB and I don't agree on telling everyone about the affair we do agree 100% on this. 

It's one thing to have a 1 night stand, it's another to a have a affair get caught and stop quickly, this is not either.

If it were me I would be getting the $$$ in order and start talking to a attorney to get custody, child support, and see where I'm at or will I get scewed no matter what?

I guess some of the other advice is if you weather the storm 3,6,9 months from now she'll see that your awesome and the fog will have cleared. She'll see TOM as the lesser man and come back to you, but do you want that? I just don't know man! Good luck!!


----------



## showtime

Honestly everybody, I don't know where I am at myself at this point. I am so dissapointed in my W and she still shows no remorse and her actions just keep getting worse. I know she is trying to make me jealous, and it's working. I can only guess, but this jerk wad is leaving for the military at the end of May, and I can only assume my W is going to spend as much time with him as she can until then. After that my W will be lonely and guess who lives 2 blocks away and is the father of her children, oh and guess what, he is my H too!!! Maybe I'll go see if he still loves me.

Don't you all agree?


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## Tanelornpete

showtime said:


> Honestly everybody, I don't know where I am at myself at this point. I am so dissapointed in my W and she still shows no remorse and her actions just keep getting worse. I know she is trying to make me jealous, and it's working. I can only guess, but this jerk wad is leaving for the military at the end of May, and I can only assume my W is going to spend as much time with him as she can until then. After that my W will be lonely and guess who lives 2 blocks away and is the father of her children, oh and guess what, he is my H too!!! Maybe I'll go see if he still loves me.
> 
> Don't you all agree?


Yes, and you know exactly what to do it and when that happens. There is hope for you, and for a better marriage than you ever had. 

This is a very hard stage - and it is very important that you concentrate completely on doing what you MUST rather than what you WANT.


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## Feelingalone

Showtime,

Listen to Tanelornpete -- stop worrying about, thinking about her, thinking about what she is thinking, etc. Yes that is hard at this time, but it is what is needed. The more you can be at peace with yourself the better.

Work on you. Exercise, enjoy life with your girls as you have been. If you need an exercise program go to one hundred push ups. Sets up a good program for push ups, abs, squats and pull ups. The basics. I myself have dedicated myself to doing the program. I can do the 200 ab crunches, the 200 squats and almost the 100 consecutive push ups. It gives me something to release my anger when angry or just the knowledge that one step at a time I am getting stronger -- physically and mentally.


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## showtime

Oh yeah, you can call me Fonzie from here on out. I'm not going to do anything to jeopardize my kids or me. I know my posts are off base at times, but I like to vent here, and allow the fellas to calm me down and get me back on track. So I am just going to sit back and ride this one out. All while working on myself and spending as much quality time with the kids as I can. 

Thanks for the workout tip. I know that will help me calm my nerves and get me in better shape!!!


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## showtime

Thanks RWB!! I appreciate the kind words.

Yeah my W is very selfish. Our relationship wasn't bad enough for me to deserve this treatment. It is kinda funny how all this went down. It was right after valentines day when my W gave this d bag her number. And on valentines day my W posted on her FB page, Happy Valentines day to my one and only XOXO! And just a few short days later is when she initiated the affair. And after a month of my W talking and texting this guy, she was caught up. My W had already done the majority of the damage before I even found out. It has only been 2 months now that this has been going on. And I only found out what was REALLY going on about a week ago. Needless to say it has been the worst couple weeks of my life. And all of my friends say I am handling it way better than they would have. Obviously when I found out it was more than an EA I was even more devastated and wanted to fly off the handle. But I kept looking at the kids and seeing the big picture. And that is what I continue to do. I have lost 17 pounds over the past couple weeks and lost countless hours of sleep. And even though the worst isn't over I am eating again and getting a few more hours of sleep at night. Even TOMs Aunt told me, and TOM that I was ten times the man he would ever be!!! And I do believe that. The only thing I can do at this point is press on and move forward with my own life. And I know for a fact, even if it's not in the near future, my selfish W will wake up one day and realize what she threw away.


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## turnera

You have a fair chance she will be back, simply due to him leaving.

Because of that, I want you to start rehearsing what you are going to say to her. I suggest that you put in writing what you require of her, for her to come back. Let her take it away and think about it.

It should include (IMO):

Her writing a No Contact letter to him that YOU approve and YOU send to him.

You can consider her taking a polygraph, but if you feel this is a one-time deal, it may not be necessary. That's usually for finding out how deep and far back the deception goes. But you guys haven't been married that long.

She goes nowhere with other men without your agreement.

She agrees not to befriend other men without your agreement.

If you feel she's at risk for cheating again, you may want to require a GPS locator in her car. Some people do that, some don't.

Her giving you all her passwords, which you will verify they still work occasionally; and if they don't, and she refuses to give you the new ones, she agrees to pack up and leave. You will have this in writing.

And that writing will be in a postnup agreement your lawyer draws up, wherein she agrees to give up custody if breaks any of the requirements - and this should be no problem, if she's really coming back because she's remorseful and wants to move forward.

Other items in the postnup will be such as if she is ever caught cheating again, she agrees to move out and release custody of the children - and you will have her signature on the agreement, so she won't be able to fight you on it in court.

Start thinking this through, and take your time and get it done to your satisfaction, so when she comes back, you'll be prepared to handle it without emotion, which is your weak point.

You also, at this point, need to sit down and determine your cutoff date - the date at which, if she doesn't quit seeing him or come home, you file for separation or divorce and move on with your life. You need to have a firm date - tell your lawyer what it is, or your parents, so you don't waffle when the time comes, as so many people do. You cannot continue like this for too much longer without suffering personal damage, so I'd suggest maybe the end of May or June, at the latest.


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## showtime

Yeah turnera, I'll get somethin' like that going.

Meanwhile, my W stopped by to visit with the kids. And they barely wanted to talk to her. It took the kids about fifteen minutes to warm up to my W but even then the kids weren't giving their all so to speak. I know my W didn't feel very comfortable being here. And I could tell my W was still pissed at me for talking to TOMs aunt again. But I tried to talk with my W a little bit and she was stone cold the whole time. But I still tried to be nice and welcoming. And she left abruptly and the kids barely wanted to give her a hug. I almost feel sorry for her but I know it's her own fault she is gone so I just let her be.


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## showtime

Well I got word from my bank today that my W filed the divorce papers. Because it comes through the banks computer I guess. I haven't been served yet though. With that being said, I am freaking out a little inside. I feel like everybody is pulling on my W in different directions and she was upset with me so she filed them. And I can imagine that is why she has been so cold to me the past few days. So any recommendations on how to handle this, and when my stops by?


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## Tanelornpete

Well, first, do not sign anything. 

You must be very careful here. Go over the parenting plan with 11 lawyers and a fine tooth comb. At the VERY least, you need 50% parenting. I'd argue for much more. 

Consult a lawyer, if you have not already. And stay on Plan A. You wife is still acting out of anger. Divorces do not occur instantly. 

Stay on track.


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## showtime

Yes I know divorce doesn't happen insantly. And if and when I do get served I will take them straigh to my lawyer. And yes she is very angry with me because I talked to TOMs aunt again. My W and I have to go to a couple different schools on friday together to decide where our oldest will go to kindergarten. If I can be cool here and get my W to open up a little and not be so mad at me I think that would help. But when we are scheduled to look over these papers and we don't agree it could get ugly fast!! I know she is in a highly volitile state right now. And she knows she has me over a barrel...


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## Affaircare

As you know showtime, Tanelorn is writing you a big, long reply. But I want to encourage you to take a breath and remain calm. Even if she did file and you are served, it's not over. Don't be afraid and don't panic. In fact, if you have to, take some time to do something that relieves stress. 

There's still a lot you can do to save your marriage and there is no "fat lady" singing yet. So take a breath. Light some incense or something. Okay? You'll be alright and we are here.

*****

P.S. I don't know if you know this, but I am EXTREMELY well-acquainted with divorce law in your particular state. So truly--don't worry. I'm not a lawyer (don't get me wrong) but if nothing else I am very familiar with how it works specifically for you.


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## showtime

Thanks AC, I'm calm. I went in the back yard with the kids and threw a chew toy for our dog. That stuff really helps relieve stress!


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## Tanelornpete

showtime said:


> Yes I know divorce doesn't happen insantly. And if and when I do get served I will take them straigh to my lawyer.


Very good! Keep this in mind. You represent your family. Your wife does not. She has abandoned the family for someone else. You stayed with the family. So any divorce decisions must reflect that you stand for the good of your family (make that - home and kids) - and insist your divorce reflect that.



> And yes she is very angry with me because I talked to TOMs aunt again.


I am HOPING that by using the word 'again' that you are referring to what happened last week - not something new. If so, your wife is holding onto that as a justification. Her anger is a secondary emotion right now, unless you are STILL doing things like that.



> If I can be cool here and get my W to open up a little and not be so mad at me I think that would help.


Again, keep in mind that you cannot 'get' her to do anything. At best, attempts to 'get' her to do something will result in the same things you've expereinced recently every time you try to manipulate her. You can HOPE she will open up - and remain calm and open yourself - but not IN ORDER to get her to do anything. DO it because it is the right thing to do.



> But when we are scheduled to look over these papers and we don't agree it could get ugly fast!!


That is unrelated - yes it can turn ugly - but you've journalled everything, and are calm, prepared and kind. You want what is best for the family and the kids. Her lawyer will attempt to get you to explode, fall to pieces, etc., but we've been working very hard here to give you the tools you need to stay on track, and to do what is right. 

Keep in mind, you won't agree. And you may have to compromise. But always stay true to the principle that you want the best for the kids. And the best may not include section 8 housing with transient lovers!



> I know she is in a highly volitile state right now. And she knows she has me over a barrel...


NO! She does NOT have you over ANY barrel! You have HER over a barrel, which is why she is acting the way she does. She cannot continue her choice, she feels that she is trapped - and may even feel that she can't go back. All nonsense. 

I am curious: what barrel would you believe she has you over?

This is not the end. You have time. Plenty of it. Even, as Affaircare points out - the 'fat lady' does sing, this does not mean that you cannot continue, or rebuild a family. A divorce is the end of this particular contractual arrangement. You can build another. Keep that in mind. If you want a family with this woman, you still have ALL the time in the world. It isn't over unless YOU do end it. (For example, you begin stalking her....etc.)

----------------
Now playing: Eric Tingstad & Nancy Rumbel - Savannah
via FoxyTunes


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## turnera

Why on earth do you think she has you over ANY barrel? What barrel? Where?

The only barrel I could even think of is that you won't have her around for sex any more. Aww..too bad.

YOU have your kids for now. YOU have your house. YOU have as much money as you need. YOU have your dignity and everyone's support - even her OM's family!

What barrel? Where?


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## turnera

Oh, yeah...this would be a great time for her to file for divorce and try to get custody - while she's moving into a section 8 housing environment and has been shunned for adultery. 

ROFLMAO


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## showtime

Thanks Tanelorn, no I haven't talked to TOMs aunt again, I was reffering to the last time a week ago. And I understand I can't make her do anything, that came out wrong before.

And I suppose the barrel I am reffering to is, my W knows I don't want a divorce, that is why she has threatened it every time she got mad at me. My W knows I don't agree with what she is doing, and she tries to get me upset with her on purpose. Like with the FB posts and stuff like that. And no I haven't looked at her FB page for a while now or talked to our mutual friend. Ever since I talked to TOMs aunt the last time I have been in the backround and haven't done anything to get in her way or give her a reason to be angry with me. 

I just don't get it sometimes. Even after I talked to TOMs aunt that last time, a couple days later we had our kids soccer game and after words my W gave me a hug. But ever since then, she has been stone cold?? I think because TOM is over 100 miles away, and she is having withdrawls.

Regardless I am going to stay on track here.


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## showtime

turnera said:


> Oh, yeah...this would be a great time for her to file for divorce and try to get custody - while she's moving into a section 8 housing environment and has been shunned for adultery.
> 
> ROFLMAO


LOL!!!! I needed that!!! Thanks turnera!! :rofl:


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## Tanelornpete

> And I suppose the barrel I am reffering to is, my W knows I don't want a divorce, that is why she has threatened it every time she got mad at me. My W knows I don't agree with what she is doing, and she tries to get me upset with her on purpose.


This is SPECIFICALLY why I mentioned the fact that the divorce is not the end of life. She will be an available female after the divorce! You have some very close ties (kids, history...)

If you keep that in mind, you have just taken ALL the wind out of that particular hot air balloon. She'll have to find another way to try to get you to emote.

Stay calm, on track, and she really won't have anything to use against you. That's part of the beauty of the way we advise you address this issue.

Not only does it mean that your wandering spouse have no real means of harming you - but we also remove YOUR ability to 'lord it over her' - to come off as high handed, etc. All you are doing is what is right. And staying calm and faithful. In other words...who wouldn't want that guy? I do, and I'm not even gay!! 

----------------
Now playing: Bobby Hackett & His Orchestra - Poor Butterfly
via FoxyTunes


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## showtime

LOL! Ok tanelorn, I got you. And to give you some insight into my W possible thinking is, my W female cousin, also young like my W. My W cousin was married and had this same kind of trouble in her marriage. My W cousin and her husband were cheating on each other. They divorced, and a year later remarried and had yet another child together, and apparently are happier than ever. And my W has talked to me about this about a month ago.


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## Affaircare

> Yes I know divorce doesn't happen insantly. And if and when I do get served I will take them straight to my lawyer.


Have you been looking for a lawyer, showtime? Here are two things that are very important right now...as in: you may choose to ignore our other advice but DO NOT IGNORE THIS!!!! 

One of the often-used tactics that a woman uses when she files for divorce is that her lawyer will suggest a temporary restraining order. This is where she files there is some past abuse and you are kicked out of the house and cannot come near her or the kids. And FYI, do not say, "Oh my wife would never do that" because two men here on this forum have had that exact thing done to them! Thus it is vitally important that in all...most some or most, but ALL...of your contact/conversations with your wife from this point forward that you either have a witness or you video tape it or you tape record it, and tell her ahead of time so that she is an informed party. She doesn't have to stay in contact--she can walk away--but any time she IS in contact you better be able to PROVE irrefutably that you were calm and non-abusive. 

Second, the lawyer you choose should know that your goals, in order, are to save the marriage and protect the family. Tell them that ahead of time, as that is likely to change their tactics a little. In your state there is no declaration of "grounds"--they're all just irreconcilable--but there are tactics a lawyer can use to stall, delay, etc. I would recommend interviewing lawyers until you find one that wants to help you save your marriage and in the meantime protect your family and it's assets from her destructive, disloyal dizzy thinking (and behavior). For example, one law in your state is that if one of the parties does not think the marriage is irreconciable, they can ask the court to require marital counseling. This would be "...a counseling period not less than thirty days nor more than sixty days later, or as soon thereafter as the matter may be reached on the court's calendar. " Well SHOOT--it can be delayed off the court's calendar for months! LOL  So when it does finally get on the calendar, the court would REQUIRE at least 60 days of marital counseling at your request! 

So the right lawyer is EXTREMELY important. Your family's future depends on it. Find the right person. I'll see if I can get some referrals. 



> If I can be cool here and get my W to open up a little and not be so mad at me I think that would help. But when we are scheduled to look over these papers and we don't agree it could get ugly fast!!


Showtime, bear in mind two things (again).  One is that she is most likely going to have a very foggy, skewed idea and view of how this might all turn out. Remember, people who are "pro-divorce" are telling her all kinds of fantasies like she'll get CS and Alimony and won't have to work, she'll get bought out of the house equity at old house prices, she'll be free, etc. Well...in REAL life she may get some CS if she has the kids more than 50% of the overnights (which she can't do now because she has no "place" for them). Shoot at this point she may not even get majority custody! (In your state, they almost always call it shared parenting 50/50 but one or the other may get more physical parenting time.) She won't get alimony because she has a work history and usually alimony is for SAHM's or to help a lady in a really long marriage get back on her feet (like to go back to school). Anyway you get the drift right? She may get some equity but it would be at TODAY'S depressed values -and- she'd also get her portion of debts (oh yeah--they always forget to mention that part). And really rather than being "free" she still has all the same responsibilities and obligations but now, she has another whole monkey wrench thrown in! 

Second is that she can say, file and threaten anything but that doesn't mean the court has ordered it. She could say she's going to file for castration and slavery for you...but that doesn't make it "true." A threat is only as good as how enforceable it is, okay? If she filed, she may well have put in there some stuff that just plain unrealistic... so if you see that on the papers again don't freak . Just remember she's thinking VERY unclearly and unrealistically. It's also entirely conceiveable that she'll outright lie to get what she wants so just prepare your heart for some of that now so that it won't throw you completely when it happens. If it doesn't--yay! If it does, you'll be sad but not thrown for a loop and able to handle it. My point here is that you're right--it may get nasty and you two may differ GREATLY on divorcing, who owes what, how to separate it, and what's best for the kids...but you remain the picture of calm and let your lawyer (and to some degree us) valliantly fight for you on your behalf. Let *HER* get nasty if that's what she chooses--you focus on being the man you have the potential to be and protecting your family. 

So what are you focusing on again? 



> But ever since then, she has been stone cold?? I think because TOM is over 100 miles away, and she is having withdrawls.


THIS is entirely possible and in fact likely quite probable! As such, she's going to be sad, lonely, depressed, and striking out. She may also view you as "the person who made her lose her love" and thus blame you for "everything". And the reason we have told you over and over again to stay away from TOM's aunt and out of her business, etc. is that the more you are not there involved in her decisions, the sooner she'll have to stop blaming you and realize it is her own choices that got her here and her choices can get her out. 

So let her wallow and go through withdrawals. It's like an addict so she'll struggle and you know that's not pretty. But let it happen and ... focus on what again?  Yeah you got it! Be the lighthouse. Be the man you can be and protect your family. Meet the needs you can (adding love kindlers and avoiding extinguishers). When it's appropriate, remind her you would LOVE to have her--she can come home and have all she's worked for back and 100% time with the kids--if she agrees to no contact with the other man EVER and allows you open access to verify she's being honest.


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## showtime

Thank you AC!!! I appreciate the long post, I know it takes a lot of time and energy to help someone out here!!! 

Just a couple things though. My W moved into section 8 housing, do you believe she has any money for a lawyer? Because I don't think she does. My W was just whining to me the other day that "You get to take the girls shopping and do stuff, meanwhile my life has haulted..." I almost died laughing inside!!!!!

And I will look at several lawyers when I get the papers.

And yes I am focusing on ME!!! (and the kids)!!


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## Affaircare

No I doubt she DOES have money for a lawyer (unless someone is loaning it to her etc.) which will also partially lead to her filing weird stuff. 

As a perfect example--in real life a court does not really care who slept around on who. To a judge, their job is this: "These folks are separating and disagree on how to separate stuff...what does the law say?" (kinda). And it is the lawyers' jobs to remind the judge of laws in their client's favor. But regular civilian people often think that the judge is going to tell the spouse they were wrong for cheating and then punish them for morality. 
Nope. Courts aren't about morals (AT ALL)!!!

So if she has to file herself, she's likely to add stuff in there that isn't relevant, that maybe isn't true, etc. All I'm saying is that even if she researches it won't be a professional legal job. 

THIS IS PART OF THE COST OF HER CHOICES! (Truly the sooner she can realize that her choices are putting her in this position, the better off she'll be...but the tendency is to want to blame) Anyway, here's the thing. She can print off forms or get the packet for $xx at the court. She can fill them out by hand if she has to. And she can file for like $100 I think (or so). Then she'd also have to pay to have you served! 

So this may be all for naught. Even if your bank has notified you that you can't clean out your joint account--you can always make a new, personal account at another bank and have your check direct deposited there and it's yours and thereafter discernible from "joint funds." Know what I mean? Also check with the lawyer but I'm thinking with her getting housing and a lease and stuff you can probably change the locks now (so she can't just walk in). I think you do that by having a judge/court declare who's residence is where and that means the one spouse can't go to the other spouse's residence and disturb it.


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## turnera

If I had to guess, she's so desperate for money, she is going for divorce to force you to pay her money.


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## showtime

Yeah my W probably thinks she is going to get some money from me. And she probably will if it goes that far. But I really do think she is panicking because she knows she is up the creek without a paddle. And by serving me the divorce papers it makes her feel like she has control over me and the situation. And my W IS blaming everyone and everything for what is going on. If she could just admit she made a mistake she would be so much better off. But at this point I believe she is trying to prove evrybody wrong, and unfortunately for her, that will NEVER happen.

And for some odd reason, today is the first day my W hasn't tried to contact me or text me? I haven't heard a word from her all day. Usually she will ask about the kids or something stupid, not today though? It's a very weird "calm" in the air tonite.


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## Tanelornpete

> Just a couple things though. My W moved into section 8 housing, do you believe she has any money for a lawyer? Because I don't think she does. My W was just whining to me the other day that "You get to take the girls shopping and do stuff, meanwhile my life has haulted..." I almost died laughing inside!!!!!


May I point out that ANY time she brings something like this up is the perfect time to let her know that you would love to have her included in this - that she is welcome back when she wants to return to the marriage...

I feel very sorry for her - she is in a bad way right now, and has no idea what to do - and her pride seems to be getting in the way of being somewhere where she can be cared for, loved and appreciated. It's very sad.


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## showtime

Tanelornpete said:


> May I point out that ANY time she brings something like this up is the perfect time to let her know that you would love to have her included in this - that she is welcome back when she wants to return to the marriage...
> 
> I feel very sorry for her - she is in a bad way right now, and has no idea what to do - and her pride seems to be getting in the way of being somewhere where she can be cared for, loved and appreciated. It's very sad.


Yeah I did tell her at that exact moment that we would love nothing more than for her to join us and be a part of this family again. Of course her pride and stubborness wouldn't allow this. And I do feel bad for her to. My W has lost her way, and she doesn't realize that all of us are trying everything we can to snap her out of it.


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## showtime

RWB said:


> Showtime... DUDE
> 
> Thankfully, I never had to go the full road you are on. However, my brother 5 years older and more wise in matters like this warned me of these very things that your are being advised. A good family divorce lawyer will give you specific instructions to protect you and your girls. I was told...
> 
> 1) Do not admit to faults or actions with your marriage.
> 2) Keep to the high road. Be the best father you can be.
> 3) When conversing with your wife, have a third party taking notes.
> 4) Do not be delinquent on any bills or mortgage payments.
> 5) No sexual contact with your wife. In GA, it is a admission of forgiveness for all previous indiscretions she may have done.
> 
> I was also advised that she may accuse me of abuse both physically and mentally. In my case, these things (9 month later) have never been a factor. But, they are real so be advised by a lawyer. You have a lifetime of responsibility to protect.


Thanks RWB, I WILL take precationary measures.

My W eradic behavior scares the crap out of me sometimes. She will leave me a message on my cell phone, and just listening to it I can tell it's not really my W, it's like I am talking/listening to a whole different person. It is the weirdest thing I have ever encountered. The one time I actually got my real wife through all of this is after I took the picture of them at dinner. When she came home that night we talked for maybe ten minutes. And I got the W I knew and loved for about 30 seconds. It was the weirdest thing ever. I noticed it, and I think she noticed it. But then she put the wall back up and hasn't been the same ever since.


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## turnera

That's why they say that people who have affairs turn into aliens. They literally become unrecognizable as they scramble to protect their daily fix.


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## showtime

So I am going to go to my oldest daughters dr. apointment because she is going to get shots for kindergarten. And I'm just wondering how that is going to go. I know my wife has been telling them bad things about me and a whole different story. And my W came over the other day and gave me a book titled... "OOPS I forgot my wife" and said it was from her boss. Then a couple days later my W took the book back and said it was just a joke?

So I am wondering should I mention something or just let it be??


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## turnera

Be AMAZING. Around everyone who knows both of you.

Look great. Smell great. Say smart things. Care about your kids like crazy. Show a lot of interest in their well-being. Say NOTHING about your wife, and if you HAVE to say something about her, make it something like "I know she's going through a stressful time right now because of the affair, but I know she'll figure it all out; I have faith in her; and we're just waiting for her to realize the mistake she's making and come home where everyone wants her to be."


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## showtime

turnera said:


> Be AMAZING. Around everyone who knows both of you.
> 
> Look great. Smell great. Say smart things. Care about your kids like crazy. Show a lot of interest in their well-being. Say NOTHING about your wife, and if you HAVE to say something about her, make it something like "I know she's going through a stressful time right now because of the affair, but I know she'll figure it all out; I have faith in her; and we're just waiting for her to realize the mistake she's making and come home where everyone wants her to be."


Perfect!!! thankyou!!!!!


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## Tanelornpete

Just let it be - you are there because the government wants you to get your daughter injected with chemicals - it has nothing to do with your marriage. Just be there for your daughter (she needs you more than the doctor needs to know about your wife...)

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Now playing: Dream Theater - The Test That Stumped Them All
via FoxyTunes


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## turnera

I didn't mean to bring it up to the doctor, pete. I just mean if someone brings it up to him, since he seems to think that everyone's talking about them.


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## Affaircare

showtime~

This is also just to prepare you in case in happens. Ready?

When my exH and I divorced, let's just say that I found indisputable evidence and still he denied. Then one day he disappeared and no one knew where he was (exactly) for a couple months. He moved to another state to be with his mistress and her four kids! THEN he came back and told all the folks we worked with and our customers and the people at our place of worship how horrible and raging I was, how I was not giving him a chance and leaving him, etc. All not only lies, but blatantly untrue and if anything true of him!

It made me mad as a wet hen to have my name drug through the mud like that, and I wanted to defend myself and set everyone straight! But you know what I did? I said, 'The break up of our marriage is our business and I won't drag you into it. You're free to watch and decide for yourself." And then I ACTED. I caught up all the bills and mortgage by myself. I stayed home and took care of the kids by myself. I ran the business by myself. I took care of the house by myself and kept going to worship. I didn't yell at customers or co-workers. I was ....  ME! 

Meanwhile he ran up debts and got into money trouble. Kept losing jobs due to raging. Would call and scream at customers or co-workers. Tried to "come and go" at home and when I said no to that he'd call random people and rage. Didn't go to any worship. Moved with mistress and dumped us, and ended up living in a hotel. 

On their own, people figured out who was doing what to whom, and if I had drug them into it I would have been stooping to his level. Then it would have been "He said/She said" both doing the same thing! By gritting my teeth and ACTING like the sane, calm, loving, patient, mature one...the actions spoke way louder than any explanation.

*********

P.S. Same kind of thing happened to Dear Hubby. His exW badmouthed him to their church, school, pastor...everyone. But she had the affair, she moved out, she left the kids, and he stayed, cared for them, kept them in their home and their room, etc. Now she is...well let's just say "not doing well" and people can see by who stayed and acted with dignity who was doing what to whom.


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## Tanelornpete

turnera said:


> I didn't mean to bring it up to the doctor, pete. I just mean if someone brings it up to him, since he seems to think that everyone's talking about them.


NP Turnera - I was thinking about the more immediate concern - I'll let you guys deal with overalls lol

----------------
Now playing: Porcupine Tree - The Cross
via FoxyTunes


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## Affaircare

I'm not talking about him.

Are you talking about him?

Maybe we SHOULD talk about him!

Want to talk about him? 

(LOL  Okay just being silly there and kidding around. Sometimes you just have to laugh ya know)


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## showtime

Ok well the doctor appointment went fine. My W wasn't working today and I showed up anyway because it is our daughter and I wanted to be there. So when I pulled up to the parking lot my W got there at the same time. My W said "You didn't have to come" I said "Yes I did, our duaghter is getting shots and I want to be here for her" 

So our daughter got the shots. And I could tell it was an uneasy feeling around the office with me being there. But I was real nice to everyone and a "superdad" to the kids. Then the Dr. comes in does his work and leaves. Then when we were all done the Dr. comes back in and says "If you guys need any advice or help I am willing to listen" He also said that he knew it would be hard for me because he is my wifes boss but that wouldn't bother him.

And before all of this my W tells me that the Dr. wanted to council us. I said well what does he know? My W said she told him she was moving out and we were getting divorced!! I said did you tell him you were having an affair?? My W said he doesn't need to know that. 

So I don't know. When he was asking me if I wanted to talk, I wanted to spill the beans soooooooo bad!!!!! But I held my tongue because I know my W would have been P***ED!!!!!

So what do you think? Should I call him and set up something where we could talk and he could give my W a fair assesment to our situation. Because the Dr does really care about our family and wants the best for all of us!!!!


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## turnera

IDK. He seems to be open to it. As long as you don't do it like you want her to get punished, but helped, I would think it would help. Since he offered.


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## showtime

Yeah, I don't think he would punish her. He just wants to give her fair advice. And he can't do that when he doesn't know what is really going on.

I mean I wouldn't have to go into all the details, but I would at least tell him she is having an affair and all I/we want is for her to return to the family. And let him take it from there.

At the same time, my W would be VERY UPSET with me!!!!!! Because my W knows that he would be dissapointed in her.

And obviously that would be another HUGE love buster and give her one more reason to hate me!!!


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## turnera

NO!!!!!

Telling the truth about her affair is NOT a Love Buster. It is the TRUTH.

Which wouldn't be a truth, if she hadn't cheated.

Stop acting like a doormat and be mad at her.


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## Tanelornpete

A Love Buster, in this instance, would be something you do that does not have your family's best interest in mind - it is usually something you do that demonstrates that you value yourself, even to the extent that you are willing to sacrifice your spouse or children to get it. 

Yes, she will get mad every time you point out that the REASON she is seeking a divorce is because SHE is unfaithful. Anger is a natural response to both embarrassment and also not getting things to go the way YOU want them to, WHEN you want them to. 

She is free to be angry.

You are responsible for your family.


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## Affaircare

Actually just FYI, I think that definition of "Love Buster" is specifically for this situation, not the overall definition of a Love Buster. 

To me, it's a Love Buster (I call them Love Extinguishers) when it is a specific habit or action that destroys love. The trick is this: in a situation where the marriage is going along okay, and the spouse's are honest and trustworthy and being transparent, but there is one kind of action that would put out the love flame...then, it's an extinguisher (a love buster). 

If the marriage is NOT going along okay; if one spouse is NOT being honest and trustworthy and transparent, then they may get angry that you aren't agreeing to join them in hiding and lying but then the higher calling is to do the moral thing and the thing that would BUILD and RECONCILE the marriage even if it does make them mad. 

Make sense?


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## showtime

Ok, so the general consensus is to talk to her boss.

I know he is generally concered for our family as I have said before. And I am pretty sure my W has been telling a whole different story to all the ladies that work there. Not that I would talk to them, just her boss. 

Today when we were there my W was very uneasy and I could tell she didn't want me there. 

Tomorrow my W and I are going to do the school thing in the afternoon. I am not sure if the Dr. is working tomorrow but I think the best thing to do would be to call down there and ask to speak to him and set something up that way. Because if I just showed up down there and waited for her boss in the waiting area it would give my W "hens" a chance to call her and tell my W I am there. Even though that doesn't matter.

I am just throwing out some ideas here..


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## Initfortheduration

Tell the doctor everything. Your wife can't have it both ways. She says its none of his business but in truth she is just wanting you to remain the bad guy in this.


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## Affaircare

showtime said:


> ...And before all of this my W tells me that the Dr. wanted to council us. I said well what does he know? My W said she told him she was moving out and we were getting divorced!! I said *did you tell him you were having an affair??* *My W said he doesn't need to know that.*


Okay I'm sorry but this had me :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 

How typical of a disloyal spouse! "I had to move." "He let me go and didn't fight for me." "I'm too poor to get good housing." "He wants things his way!" "He won't help with my costs" but entirely FORGET to mention the sexual AFFAIR she's been carrying on for months. *Nah! That couldn't possibly be the reason you're breaking up!! *It's all YOU! See she felt this way BEFORE she looked for another man, flirted with him for months at work, used work as a cover, lied to your face, covered it up and then had the balls to ask you to leave. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:



> Should I call him and set up something where we could talk and he could give my W a fair assessment to our situation. Because the Dr does really care about our family and wants the best for all of us!!!!


I guess this is just my opinion--it may not necessarily be part of the typical steps of recovering your marriage, but if you know the Doc, and trust the Doc has some wisdom--if you believe the Doc will tell you "like it is" some areas you may very well need to do better and then tell your wife that she can't be saying all this stuff about you if she's been using work to carry on unfaithfulness...then I say YES! Set an appointment and see if you can set one that's "man to man" where she can't interject. 

(You probably should have exposed the affair to the Doc long ago if this is someone your wife is likely to look up to and listen to! Especially if Doc will be sort of fair, hear both sides, and not be all judgmental to her. But...the what's done is done.)

Now if he's likely to be all pop-psychology and tell you "Look showtime, you treated her badly and she's gone due to your abuse; let her seek her happiness because she truly loves ToadBoy" then I'd say no point in bothering. You know the truth and you know what you should be focusing on, so stay on that track. 

And whether you talk to Doc or not, your focus will STILL be to work on your weaknesses and be a better man...one who's more attractive to her. By the way I was wondering something. It sounds like you get the idea of Love Kindlers and Love Extinguishers (needs and love busters)...so what Love Extinguishers did you do and what are you working on?


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## showtime

Yeah I know my W is menatally challenged right now.

But I DO know that the doc is a fair man and will see both sides. But he doesn't know what is really going on. And I don't know if my W has made me out to be the bad guy to the doc or not. She probably just told the doc it was over. My W couldn't tell the doc that I was abusive or anything stupid like that because he knows ME better and knows I would never do anything like that. The doc knows (or at least did) how I feel about my family. 

And the love extinguishers I have steered clear of are...

Not falling into her traps and arguing with my W when she comes over, because she is obviously in a bad mood when she is around me.

Not getting in her way.

Not calling TOMs aunt. Or anyone else.

And since I think you would like to know some of the Love Kindlers...
(even though my W doesn't respond to them right now)

Inviting her out for lunch

Asking her to join us for dinner in our home

Asking if she nwould like some help when she says she has a bunch of stuff to do

And being nice to her (even if I think she doesn't deserve it)


----------



## showtime

Well I talked to my W boss yesterday evening. The doc said he was gald I came in. And that he wanted to talk to me but he knew the timing was off when my W and I were there. He also said he could tell I wanted to talk and he could feel the evil eyes from my W saying I better not!! 

So we sat down and all he knew was my W moved out and we were getting divorced. I asked him if he wanted to know what was really going on. He said of course. So I told him my W was having an affair. So we talked about what was going on and what had happened up until this point. The doc understood I wasn't filling my W emotional needs and thought that me and my W didn't get to "date" enough because of the kids. And that my W affair gave her the freedom to do that. He also asked me who my W was having an affair with. I said I didn't know if I should tell you. He asked if it was a patient of his and I said yes. So then I told him who it was and the doc broke down into tears for us!!! 

The doc is a very spiritual man and said a prayer for our family right then and there. He also said that he was so flabbergasted he couldn't think straight. He also told me that all the ladies in the office were pulling for me and our family. And one of the ladies had the movie fireproof and wanted to give it to my W but couldn't bring themselves to do it for some reason?

I feel like it was a good choice to talk to the doc. But now I feel like I should tell my W I talked him and told him what was really going on. Because I don't want her to go to work and the doc have a conversation with her about this and then she feels like I lied to her because I didn't tell her I talked to him? If that makes sense...

What do you think?


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## Initfortheduration

Absolutely, this shines a light on her and makes the affair much harder to carry on. Think for a moment. The doctor knows everything. And if you wife knows. It will be that much more difficult to carry on the affair. AND YOU MUST ABSOLUTELY TELL THAT HE CRIED AND PRAYED FOR YOUR MARRIAGE. Your wife must know that what she is doing is effects every aspect of your lives. I think your wife respects the doctor very much and when she sees the pain in his eyes over this, it may cut through the fog a little. She may scream, she may threaten you. Tell her that you want to live your life in the light. How she lives her life is up to her. Oh, and tell her this weekend so she can blow off the steam or maybe even talk to him over the weekend.


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## turnera

Yep.


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## showtime

turnera said:


> Yep.


That's all you got? lol!


----------



## Affaircare

Initfortheduration said:


> Absolutely, this shines a light on her and makes the affair much harder to carry on. Think for a moment. The doctor knows everything. And if you wife knows. It will be that much more difficult to carry on the affair. AND YOU MUST ABSOLUTELY TELL THAT HE CRIED AND PRAYED FOR YOUR MARRIAGE. Your wife must know that what she is doing is effects every aspect of your lives. I think your wife respects the doctor very much and when she sees the pain in his eyes over this, it may cut through the fog a little. She may scream, she may threaten you. Tell her that you want to live your life in the light. How she lives her life is up to her. Oh, and tell her this weekend so she can blow off the steam or maybe even talk to him over the weekend.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

I can't add anything to that response, it is so right on the money. She will most likely be very upset, but as we've said your marriage can survive anger--it can not survive an affair. 

Don't rub it in her nose or do an "I told ya so"--just inform her that you spoke to the Doc, that you spoke the whole truth as lovingly as you could, and that you appreciated his time. And remember what you're focusing on: 1) being the best showtime you can be--be the man and father and husband that you have the potential to be, 2) where you can, offering her love kindlers (meeting emotional needs).

As she whirls and storms and fumes you can say, "I realize that may be your opinion but my opinion differs" and that's all you need to say. Don't let her drag you in so she can blame you...and don't let her pull you into her drama.


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## showtime

Thanks

My W does try real hard to pull me into her drama!! But lately I'm onto it and steer clear of it. I just leave her be and say stupid things and I keep my mouth shut.


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## Initfortheduration

When she asks you what you told him. Tell her "That I love you......and everything else.


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## showtime

Well I guess my W is out of town with TOM, because she won't answer the phone and she always answers her phone unless she is with him. And she wil be gone all weekend and I won't hear from her. I suppose I could text her and let her know, or leave her a message?


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## turnera

Don't worry about it. If she's unavailable, she's unavailable. You have a life to live.


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## showtime

I hear ya' turnera, I think it would be nice to give her something to ponder while she is having a wonderful weekend out of town though...


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## Initfortheduration

I agree. Text her "Saw Doc today, he knows everything". And nothing else. When she calls screaming, tell her "Its his employee, his patient, his practice, my wife. He was entitled, because he cares."


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## turnera

There you go...trying to control her again...


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## Tanelornpete

turnera said:


> There you go...trying to control her again...


Exactly - it is not ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL that she be told this TODAY. That is something that MAY or MAY NOT happen. Don't force the issue.


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## Initfortheduration

Just an opinion. Sorry, but if the truth ruins her weekend. That's her choice.


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## Tanelornpete

> Just an opinion. Sorry, but if the truth ruins her weekend. That's her choice.


The news will 'ruin' any day she hears it on (if, as you point out, she chooses to feel bad about it.) The point of the objection to _controlling_ her is that it is not necessary for him to tell her immediately. The purpose for exposure is not to 'ruin' someone's day (that is a consequence) but to inform those to whom she may be willing to listen, and to make it more difficult to continue lying.

Hence, is isn't necessary to track her down with the news. All that is necessary is that the Doctor know. And to be honest with her if she asks. The Doc is a grown man - he can deal with her if he desires. 

By telling the doctor the truth, there is one less place where her lies are still intact...


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## Affaircare

showtime said:


> I hear ya' turnera, I think it would be nice to give her something to ponder while she is having a wonderful weekend out of town though...


Oh shoot now, showtime. If I remember correctly, one of your little downfalls is that you try to "make" her do things your way or in your time. You don't want her to have a nice weekend with TOM (for obvious reasons) and yet it's not cool for you to use this nice talk you had with the Doc to try to "make" her not have a good time and "make" her come home. That wasn't the point of this talk. The point was as Dear Hubby said: one less place where her lies are still intact. 

Let's see if I can explain this. If you view her as a full-grown woman whom you respect, you would allow her to make her own choices (even bad ones) and then allow her to experience the natural consequences of her choices. YOU may want her home and wish she would choose you--but the more you try to "make" her come home, the more resentment is likely to grow and the less she is likely to choose you...because you MADE her do it and it wasn't a free choice! On the other hand, if she makes bad choices and you lovingly allow her to make even bad ones, but then do not protect her from what happens naturally because of her bad choices...well that is the most loving way to allow her to grow! 

Right now, I think maybe 1/3 of the time or more we catch you trying to "make" something happen. Showtime, when all is said and done, you may do a completely perfect job and she may very well STILL make a bad choice and choose to leave. That is her decision to make! You can not stop her from it--and the more you try, the more likely she'll be to choose to leave! But what you can do is change YOU so that you are an attractive alternative. You can change you, so that if the day comes that she does choose to come home and choose the family and choose you...she is choosing YOU because she means it and she wants to. 

Make sense? 



Tanelornpete said:


> The news will 'ruin' any day she hears it on (if, as you point out, she chooses to feel bad about it.) The point of the objection to _controlling_ her is that it is not necessary for him to tell her immediately. The purpose for exposure is not to 'ruin' someone's day (that is a consequence) [...actually trying to "ruin" the weekend would be a punishment which is not a very respectful way to treat someone]but to inform those to whom she may be willing to listen, and to make it more difficult to continue lying.
> 
> Hence, it isn't necessary to track her down with the news. All that is necessary is that the Doctor know. And to be honest with her if she asks. The Doc is a grown man - he can deal with her if he desires.
> 
> By telling the doctor the truth, there is one less place where her lies are still intact...


:smnotworthy::smnotworthy: Hear! Hear! Well said!! As always you hit the nail on the head, sweetheart!


----------



## showtime

Yeah I know everybody, that is why I put stuff out here and you guys can anylize and make a fair assesment of the damage. And no I didn't text her or tell her, yes I wanted to but I resisted. So thank you for the advice but I brought it to light with the doc, he can take it from here if he chooses...


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## turnera

So...what are you going to do, tomorrow? Are you going to sit on pins and kneedles all day, wating for her epiphany when her boss talks to her? Or wondering if he has? Are you going to feel like you can't stand not knowing, so you end up calling him and asking him? Cos if you do, it would prove to him that she should have left you.

Quick T/J - AffairCare, do I feel totally stupid that I just now realized you and Tanelorn are married?


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## showtime

RWB said:


> Showtime,
> 
> As Turnera and other have said. Do you have a "no more BS" date? I can't or will take NO more. I read here with others the pain and crap she is putting on you. It is like as soap-opera on TV. I applaud you and your courage. I stayed with my wife after 6 years of deceit and lies, I was in limbo for 6 month after finding out. I know the pain but is she getting the message or pain that she is causing. How long are you going to put up with this High School BS she is living?


It's hard to tell if my W understands the pain she is putting our family through. She I so caught up in all her lies that I think she is used to it by now. Talking with her boss I think will help her wake up a bit. Her work was a bit of a safe haven for her and that will change now. And I was shooting for the begining of july as a cut off date. I can only assume but I believe my W is going to milk this out until TOM leaves at the end of may. Then she will be all alone in a dumpy apartment with nobody to talk to. So it should be an interesting month.

P.S. No turnera I'm not gonna call and see if the doc talked to her. But I know my W will call me and act like she is the victim if/when he does talk to her...


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## showtime

Affaircare said:


> Right now, I think maybe 1/3 of the time or more we catch you trying to "make" something happen. Showtime, when all is said and done, you may do a completely perfect job and she may very well STILL make a bad choice and choose to leave. That is her decision to make! You can not stop her from it--and the more you try, the more likely she'll be to choose to leave! But what you can do is change YOU so that you are an attractive alternative. You can change you, so that if the day comes that she does choose to come home and choose the family and choose you...she is choosing YOU because she means it and she wants to.
> 
> Make sense?


Yes AC that makes perfect sense, and I understand completely now. This is why I have left her alone for the past week (and yes I probably should have left her alone a long time) and let her make her own desicions and work on ME.


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## Affaircare

turnera said:


> Quick T/J - AffairCare, do I feel totally stupid that I just now realized you and Tanelorn are married?


[threadjack] I don't know, turnera...do ya feel stupid? :lol: Yes, Tanelorn is my Dear Hubby and aren't I the lucky one?

[/threadjack]



> It's hard to tell if my W understands the pain she is putting our family through. She I so caught up in all her lies that I think she is used to it by now. Talking with her boss I think will help her wake up a bit. Her work was a bit of a safe haven for her and that will change now.


Bear in mind that up to this point she may have thought the people at work "supported" and "encouraged" her affair or at least knew of it and didn't disapprove. I'm very pleased to hear that they are (for the most part) sad to hear of it and are praying for the marriage to reconcile. My hope is that slowly but surely, one by one, she'll discover on her own that behaving like this is not something that is generally viewed as "true love" or accepted by the people who are hurt by it. If she can see that...it will be a good leap forward for her. 



> ..And I was shooting for the begining of july as a cut off date. I can only assume but I believe my W is going to milk this out until TOM leaves at the end of may. Then she will be all alone in a dumpy apartment with nobody to talk to. So it should be an interesting month.


I think this is very reasonable and if you see any kind of signs of beginning to come around during the month of June, leave open the option of extending it two weeks or another month. Once TOM is gone, she'll likely go into withdrawal and it may look like depression to you. The withdrawal is from the drug of "thrill of the affair"--I call it the "love zing"  And it is a physiological withdrawal from the brain chemicals of a crush which are natural amphetamines. So the first several weeks she may be like someone who's stopping cigarettes or off drugs. Thereafter, if there isn't contact, you'll likely see more and more of your real wife (not the alien) and at that point it's conceivable she may begin to realize the harm she's done and the pain she's caused and be REALLY embarrassed and guilty. So as I said, July is reasonable and if you see progress the option to maybe extend it. If she hardens her heart and stubbornly won't swallow her pride..why then time to go to the last step. 



> P.S. No turnera I'm not gonna call and see if the doc talked to her. But I know my W will call me and act like she is the victim if/when he does talk to her...


And when she either a) screams at you and blames you for dragging her name through the mud at work or b) plays the victim ...are you ready with some responses to Disloyal Dizziness? Here are a few suggestions to get your mind flowing:

"How COULD you drag my name through the mud like that?" 
_"I told the truth. How could YOU drag your name through the mud by behaving like that?"_

"You were abusive! I was leaving you long before I met TOM." 
_"Yes I agree there was trouble before. You weren't meeting my needs at all, yet I didn't turn to other women."_

"I might lose my job and now I have to be on section 8."
_"You're right. And your choices have cost you a lot haven't they?"_

"You neglected me! I didn't love you at all!"
_"You're right you did neglect our marriage and we were both losing love fast."_

The point with these responses is to not take her "dizzy talk" and sort of reflect it back to her so that she can see some of the damage but also so she can see that it is HER OWN CHOICES that have gotten her where she is today...not you. Okay? 

showtime, I know it may seem weird and hopeless and long and painful and awful (and it is really)--but you are doing VERY well. You are standing for your family, protecting your children, and showing your wife the man and father and husband you can be. I pray for her that she will see it in time, but for now, keep up the good work.


----------



## showtime

Thanks AC, I appreciate the positive words. I have done real good at reflecting my W dizzy talk back at her. Just like when she was complaning that she didn't have any money, and I got to go out and do stuff, and her life has haulted. I explained to her that was her desicions that got her to that point, not mine. My W was asking me to call TOMs aunt and "make it right" with her so that TOM could stay there. I said make what right? TOMs aunt has morals and stands up for what is right. How was I supposed to make it right? That was an interesting conversation and I know my W has lost her way, and is trying to prove everybody wrong at this point. Because she is still going to great lengths to spend time with TOM. I mean driving 120 miles each way for the weekend. And TOM is leaving in a month. We all see it, but my W obviously doesn't. 

I am intersested to see how the doc handles her, and we shall see over the next few weeks if anything starts setting in. Meanwhile I am still studying on my personality and the "Love Dare" book showed up in the mailbox yesterday (small town). I will try to apply each days task when I can. It will be a little more difficult when my W isn't really around. But I will use it when I can.


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## turnera

Remember that not everyone chooses to act on information. It's just as possible that her boss will say nothing, but will just choose to watch her and not get involved.

IMO, the biggest selling point of exposure is that the WAYWARD KNOWS that people are thinking bad things about her. 

Makes it hard to justify the affair when they know that.


----------



## showtime

Well her boss is very spiritual and family oreiented. There is no way he won't say something to her. He is not going to sit back and watch. He cares too much for our family to not try and help.


----------



## showtime

Well my W had to go to the hospital this morning. Our mutual friend called me and said she was taking my W to the hospital. I said ok and asked if she was alright. Apparently my W passed out in the shower. So I took our oldest to school and dropped our youngest of with my mom(grandma). I went in to the hospital and asked for my W. They took me right to her and of course she said I didn't have to come. I said I wanted to. So she told me what was going on and we talked for a while. The nurse came in and gave us her paperwork for her perscriptions and we loaded up and went to fill her perscriptions, they were gonna take 25 minutes to fill so we did some grocery shopping until they were ready. We finished up and I drove her back to our mmutual friends house where she is staying. So I helped her in the house and carried the groceries. Meanwhile she was trying to pick the house up and organize things all while talking to me. Even though I could tell she wanted me to stay for a little bit, I thought I should cut it short and leave on my terms and leave her wanting more. So I said I better go and she thanked me and gave me a hug.

I couldn't bring myself to tell her I talked to the doc. She will be off for the next 2 days (Dr. orders) So I figure I might have an oppurtunity before then.


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## Affaircare

Is she okay? I mean...physically?


----------



## showtime

Affaircare said:


> Is she okay? I mean...physically?


Yes I think so, they gave her some different antibiotics than she was taking before. The doctor said she should be feeling 100% better by tonite. She obviously has been very stressed out and hasn't been taking care of herself.(Eating right and staying hydrated) Also she has been taking those legal crack diet pills, and I'm sure those don't help with her mood swings and her being able to control her emotions. I talked to her boss about them the other day but he didn't seem concerned with them, he was more worried about our family.


----------



## desperateandlost

Showtime,

I just finished reading your entire thread. Whew!! I am going through the same thing right now with my W. She is unable to choose between me and TOM. I've known about the A since Thanksgiving. We have a 3yr old together, been together 5yrs, married almost 2yrs. I'm trying to follow the advice your angels have been giving you. I've made a ton of mistakes as well. In fact I've had divorce papers drawn up and I don't even want a divorce, but I know that I can't keep going like this with her sitting on the fence playing mother and wife with me and gf with him. Really don't want to file but I've sorta reached my limit here. The hard part is that we get along great. We're like best friends. Truly. I've done the gathering, exposure and plan a stuff. I never set a time limit on my plan a but I do feel like I'm there pretty much. I can see this going on indefinitely if someone doesn't do anything. Unlike you, I'm getting alot of positive feedback from her, but she just won't let him go completely and I don't know how much longer I should let her spend weekends out there ( this past weekend would be the fourth in a row ) and play my wife during the week. Any advice from you or your angels would be highly appreciated.


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## turnera

desperate, who did you expose to?


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## desperateandlost

Turnera, My mother, my father, her mother and her father, her friends at work are somewhat indifferent from what I can gather. They say they are just interested in her happiness, regardless of who she chooses. Her closest friends are fully aware of the situation and I honestly don't have alot of friends besides my coworkers and they know as well.


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## Affaircare

Hey desperateandlost, 

How about if we start a thread here in Coping with Infidelity so that we don't threadjack showtime's thread? I'm sure Tanelorn and I would be happy to help ya...and you know turnera isn't half bad either  LOL Okay actually I love her and she's a wise woman (who LOVES exposure!). 

Would you mind starting your own thread and giving a few details of your situation? There's a button in the top, left corner that says "New Thread".


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## desperateandlost

Sure thing yall. I was going to suggest that next. Hold on..


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## showtime

I picked up the Love Dare book and I succesfully accomplished day one. But then I look at day 2 for tomorrow and it says to do an unexpected gesture for her.

How am I suppose to accomplish something like this if she isn't around. And also at this point should I even be trying these things?

Any input would help.


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## Affaircare

showtime~

Kindness means "...the act or the state of being warmhearted and considerate and humane and sympathetic -- marked by charitable behavior, mild disposition, pleasantness, tenderness and concern for others." 

In the course of my replying to you, I have been exhibiting kindness through my actions: taking the time to read you posts, think about them respond with advise, and care about you and your family. 

Yes you might normally do the charitable act of tenderness and concern to her directly if she were living at home, but since she is not, can you not think of ONE THING you could do that would give her a break, take one burden (even if for a night), or be an action that shows you are thinking outside yourself and what it might be like to be in her shoes? If you thought of her life right now, how might YOU feel and what might you wish someone would do for you that would mean "kindness" to you? 

I'm not going to give you specific examples, ideas or answers because part of YOUR growing is to start to learn how to think like this and do this on your own (*sniffle* without us!).  Your assignment tonight is to answer my questions here in this thread...okay?


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## turnera

He already did that. He bought her groceries.


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## Initfortheduration

Write "Thinking of you" on the back window of her car, backwards. So she has to look in the rear view mirror to see what it says.


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## Affaircare

turnera said:


> He already did that. He bought her groceries.


LOL Turnera! tst tst!

This is for the Love Dare book that he just got in the mail today. The first day is to go through the day and not say anything negative about your spouse or to your spouse. The second day (tomorrow) is to do one random act of kindness. 

It would be good for him to think of something he could do that would be kind.


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## showtime

LOL!! I didn't pay for her groceries turnera. My W paid for her own. And I have some ideas of what to do for her, but my W is moving into her apartment and I'm pretty sure TOM is there fixing the place up. So I was looking to find a way around that if there even is one. So I'm kind of in a tough spot here. I could bring her a cappucino or something like that. But if she isn't around whats a guy gonna do?


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## OneMarriedGuy

What does she not have on her own that would make a nice small house warming gift? Maybe a vanilla candle or something of that nature?


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## Affaircare

Okay maybe I'm just WAY more bold, but if you go to your wife's new house and the OM is there, remember that YOU ARE HER HUSBAND and have a legal and moral right to be with her. He is nothing to her morally or legally, so that if anyone should be there, it's you...and if anyone should not be there or should slink away, it's him. 

I know I'm all bold this way, but if it were me, I'd go, walk in head held high as if you are who you are...her HUSBAND...and say, "Hello. I'm Showtime, (wife's name)'s HUSBAND. Thank you for helping my WIFE with this work. I'm sure my WIFE will appreciate it. MY WIFE will make this place cute I'm sure but it's nothing compared to our lovely home. You should SEE what she did to decorate our children's rooms. Of course, OUR CHILDREN do miss her and hope she comes home soon. *kiss her in front of him* Well bye dear! Have a great day and I miss you VERY much!" (wave as you walk out as suave as Cary Grant)

:lol: Yeah--I'm devilish that way.


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## turnera

*YES!*


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## OneMarriedGuy

Would be awesome unless of course she pulls away when you give her the goodbye kiss. Would rather spoil the fun...

Since you are being spy carry grant anyway maybe you can pull it off as a sneak attack - she won't know what hit her and will stand there with a confused look that TOM can take as swooning and nearing passing out - it would be like she was 16 at a Beatles concert


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## showtime

you guys are too much!! LOL!!


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## Affaircare

Yeah... I know. 

I have to admit one thing that really helped me get through some of the heartache was little goofiness like this. That's not to say I wouldn't actually DO this! I just probably would not be able to pull it off with the entire Cary Grant/Katherine Hepburn attitude. They are stars! I'm a quiet peace-loving introvert type ... but I'm also a little bit brazen. 

Anyway, did you decide on something kind to do? I'm still thinking of something kind to do for Tanelorn...any suggestions?


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## showtime

Actually I did think of something kind. I changed the oil in her car today. Not to ramantical but it needed to be done and she was thankful.


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## Affaircare

Ah--the trick to that one is if it is something she recognizes and appreciates. Not all women view "changing the oil" in the loving way in which it was meant. But if she knew she needed it and was thankful--I'm thinking SCORE!


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## created4success

turnera said:


> You need to STOP operating out of fear. This is your wife and your marriage. It is your JOB to fight for them. So what if your wife gets mad at you? If she leaves you over a phone call, you don't want that marriage anyway.


I agree, turnera. Fight for what is important!



> Right now the most important thing to do is STOP the contact. Get her phone, get the phone number, and go online and backtrack to get his info. Pay a service if you have to. It's worth it to save your marriage.


On the other hand, there's only so much you can do to prevent it from happening. If she's determined, it may very well occur despite anything or everything you do.

And sometimes, trying to get involved can make it worse and drive her away, only you know what's best, ultimately.


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## showtime

Well everyone my W says she wants to work on our marriage!!

I'm not sure at this point if that's what I want but we shall see. 

Let me just give you a quick rundown of the last few days events. So my W moved into her apartment and TOM was helping her. And my W explained to me that it was the first time they had actually spent that much time together in one place so to speak. And my W also explained she saw his true colors and that he is a baby and he wouldn't quit asking her if she was getting back together with me. Also my W watched Fireproof and because of the movie she went to church the next morning. And of course they talked about marriage and family at church. Then the good doc also had a talk with her about everything that was going on and that was setting in to. And I know a couple of you guys aren't gonna be to happy about what I have been doing the past few days either. I have been hanging out with our mutual friend quite a bit with the kids and our mutual friend has kids the same age, and she is single. And our mutual friend really likes me and my W knows this. So my W was very upset that me and our mutual friend have been hanging out. We never did anything physical I couldn't do that to my W. I care about her too much. But my W thought we were sleeping together. And to top it all off, I got served divorce papers today. 

So my W and I had a very long talk tonite and she agreed that she would never talk to TOM again and she would give me full access to any and all emails and her FB. 
It was weird I felt like I was actually talking with the girl I used to know.

She knows I am getting guidance from the internet and wanted to know what we should do next.

My W doesn't know if she should move out of her apartment and come back home or not. She is still a little skeptical of the future as am I. But I think if we are going to really work on this my W should be at home. But like I said earlier I am unsure if I want to work on it too. I know that is what everybody and I have been working so hard for, but man she has ran me through the ringer. I know the desicion is ultimatly up to me and her.


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## Tanelornpete

Excellent news my friend! I'm heading to bed right now - but I'll post some in the morning...


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## turnera

Excellent!

I guess the answer to your question really lies in (1) if you believe she's not just doing this because of money and (2) if you can forgive what she's done. 

No one ever faults a betrayed spouse for cutting ties. It's too big a thing to get over. So...it all boils down to whether you can get past this and LIKE her again.


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## showtime

Yeah I don't think it is because of money. I just don't know where to go from here. I'm not sure what I want. She had destroyed me as a person and left me for dead. You guys helped me get through that and I have brought myself back to life. And I have realized now that I can do things without her and can take care of me and the kids alone. The thing about it is, and she knows this too, do I want her in my life? I just don't know what to do. I love her, I always will. But I can't figure out what her deal is. When I was talking with her, I was talking to my wife, not the alien being I was used to. But I can't trust a word she says and she knows that. My W is also scared to trust if I want her back, she has it in the back of her mind even though it wasn't talked about, that if we try to fix this it could all go south anyway. I know my W is waiting for me to take the reigns and say let's do this. She asked me for help and to tell her what to do. She doesn't know what to do. And I don't either. She knows I have had help from the internet, I haven't told her where. But she wants to join here and ask for help. But I don't want her to see my thread. But I think this is also a very good reference for other people to see how it all can go down. So I don't know what to do there. Ultimatley it would be to delete this whole thread and let her ask for help. I know she wants to, andI know everybody would line her out and get her in the right direction. And everybody knows me and what I went through on here and that would give all of you a better understanding about our marriage, and that would help too. So I don't know everybody. We are supposed to go to the mediator today and I think we decided to put that off until we figure out what we are going to do, because we can always get divorced, but I feel like we don't need that in the back of our minds if we are truly going to fix this?


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## okeydokie

i havent read the whole thread, so sorry if this is redundent, could she have felt threatened by the mutual friend? as if her safety net (you) was being taken out from under her? if i read it correctly she "came around" after the mutual friend interaction with you, right?


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## Affaircare

showtime said:


> Well everyone my W says she wants to work on our marriage!!


When I read this last night (at like 1:30am) I literally squealed and our kids came running out of their rooms saying, "What's wrong?"   Okay this is very good news and a great step. Congrats, showtime!



> I'm not sure at this point if that's what I want but we shall see.


I completely understand 100% what you mean. At this point you've worked, and worked and all the while she's been lying to you, lying to people about you, got an STD, put you and the kids through hell...and basically because she was being selfish. There is a LOT to recover from and heal here, and that's not even counting how things were not exactly perfect before the affair. 

BUT (and this "but" is big)...do you remember when all this started and we told you it didn't have to mean the end of your marriage and you were freaking out and couldn't hardly see? In the same way here I'm telling you now that while those are big things to deal with, you and she CAN do it. This is why Tanelorn and I say that after an affair it doesn't go "back to the way it was" but it's actually a whole new, better marriage. In a way, now, you know that you could live without her...and yet out of love you choose to be there. In a way, now, she knows that she doesn't have to just endure the things that hurt her..and yet out of love she learns how to tell you in a healthy way. So it can be different and a LOT better. 



> Let me just give you a quick rundown of the last few days events. So my W moved into her apartment and TOM was helping her. And my W explained to me that it was the first time they had actually spent that much time together in one place so to speak. And my W also explained she saw his true colors and that he is a baby and he wouldn't quit asking her if she was getting back together with me.


Okay I'm sorry but :lol::rofl::lol::rofl::lol::rofl: I realize it may not be polite but that is a little bit funny. I could see that coming a mile away, couldn't you? But by the same token, I won't dwell on this any longer than to say that it took REAL COURAGE to face the fact that the OM was not really the "fantasy perfect man" she was envisioning, and I'm proud of her for being honest with herself...and with you. So yes, I giggled but this is really good. 



> ... Also my W watched Fireproof and because of the movie she went to church the next morning. And of course they talked about marriage and family at church. Then the good doc also had a talk with her about everything that was going on and that was setting in to.


showtime, I don't know if you are a religious or spiritual person so I don't wanna preach here, but I will say this: "GOD BLESS FIREPROOF!" Okay there...I'm done. :smthumbup: You know, there is a reason why Tanelorn and I have you do what we do in the order we have you do it...it's so that this exact kind of thing has the opportunity to happen. All at once in relatively good timing, a lot of the work you did and groundwork you laid came to work for your marriage. I myself am a Christian person and I do think that going to church could be a good thing. My one caution is that "churches" are human being getting together to worship, and human beings are very imperfect (God is the only one who's perfect). For now, let's just say that going to church on Sunday could very well work out as a good thing for each one of you as an individual and for your family. 



> ...And I know a couple of you guys aren't gonna be to happy about what I have been doing the past few days either. I have been hanging out with our mutual friend quite a bit with the kids and our mutual friend has kids the same age, and she is single. And our mutual friend really likes me and my W knows this. So my W was very upset that me and our mutual friend have been hanging out. We never did anything physical I couldn't do that to my W. I care about her too much. But my W thought we were sleeping together.


Well let me be right up front with you, showtime, because I respect you too much to say anything less. I do not see that it did any harm to plant the seed in your W's brain that (HELLO) you could get along quite well without her and that other women would find you attractive. The fact that you were hanging out with another human being and enjoyed it probably didn't harm you a ton either because now some part of you knows that you aren't a dud. But you know as well as I do that your W's behavior has really harmed your self-esteem and put a dent in your self-worth...and at this moment I'm sure you're aware that you are so ripe and vulnerable for an affair it's not funny. That's because the first, somewhat decent-looking woman who comes along who flirts with you, laughs at your jokes like you're smart and funny, takes the time to be interested in you...and you're going to feel the same "love-zing" that your W felt and had so much trouble giving up! Furthermore, even if it's somewhat slight, right now I bet you're thinking of reasons to justify why you should continue seeing your mutual friend (because she made you feel good). 

So here's my challenge to you. Do you know how hard it's going to be to not get that little boost of encouragement to your ego? Do you know how much it would hurt to entirely give that up right now? Yeah--you have a very small clue what it will be like for your wife to give up the little romantic doo-dads and attention from the OM. You will miss it a bit--she will be LONELY and feel guilty, ugly, unwanted, and empty. So use this teeny, tiny little bit of time as some reassurance that you would be okay and acknowledgment that you are an attractive person on many levels, and then use that as a way to relate to your wife in a kind and understanding way. And don't hang with your mutual friend or YOU will be the one having an affair and justifying it. (See how easy it is?)



> And to top it all off, I got served divorce papers today.


Yeah--don't worry about them. That can be canceled, no biggie. 



> So my W and I had a very long talk tonite and she agreed that she would never talk to TOM again and she would give me full access to any and all emails and her FB.
> It was weird I felt like I was actually talking with the girl I used to know.


Yeah, when we say it's like an alien, now you know what we mean. Somehow when under the influence of the affair, it's really like they aren't themselves. The closest thing I can think of really is split personality almost. I'm also tickled/thrilled to hear that she has agreed to the two things: 1) never, EVER contacting the OM again and 2) accountability and access so you can verify no contact. Showtime I would encourage you to check periodically but also to show some grace. Return the favor and let her have access to your email and Facebook too, because not only does SHE need to show personal transparency but you also need to be transparent to her. And as she behaves in a more and more trustworthy way, slow down on the checking. 



> She knows I am getting guidance from the internet and wanted to know what we should do next.


Okay cool. Do you honestly think Tanelorn and I are gonna leave you two now? No! Of course not. I can understand your hesitation to have her see this thread, and yet I do think this thread is honest and shows the real you. It's not particularly disparaging of her or anything and you did keep the focus mainly on what you were feeling or going through. For now I suggest that maybe you request that this be your safeplace and maybe you and your wife can start working together with me and Tanelorn. We care about her, you know? And shoot--I have been in her shoes! 



> My W doesn't know if she should move out of her apartment and come back home or not. She is still a little skeptical of the future as am I. But I think if we are going to really work on this my W should be at home. But like I said earlier I am unsure if I want to work on it too. I know that is what everybody and I have been working so hard for, but man she has ran me through the ringer. I know the desicion is ultimatly up to me and her.


That's right. Ultimately it is up to you and her, but I would encourage you to give her the chance to reconcile and honor her vow. You can ask Tanelorn, but I think the "rebirth" after going through the fires of an affair, can be even better and sweeter than the illusion before the trouble. It's like before the affair it was an illusion of what you thought it was -- and after the affair it's real, true, deep and healthy! For right this moment it won't harm her to stay at her apartment and let you two arrange a few things. You can have her come over and "stay the night" and you can go to her place and claim it for yourself...and maybe date a bit so that both of you feel reassured that you both WANT this. 

For now, for this moment, let's just set a few ground rules for reconciliation and get the ball started. Okay?


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## showtime

Ok one thing I just don't understand is, yesterday my W was soooo angry with me because of everything that had happened the past few days as I explained above. And now all of the sudden she wants to work it out and be a family again? Why all of the sudden, what does a few short hours time do to a person in that state of mind. I don't trust what she says. I fear she is afraid of being alone because her and TOM didn't work and now she has known that I was fighting for her and love her so she thinks I will just take her back, or at least that is what she wants, is for me to tell her we will go for it and we will be better than ever. Yes that is what I wanted but now I don't trust that she is all for the cause and she is just saying this stuff because her fear of being alone. I don't know, my W said church really shed light on things and she realizes what is important in life. And beleive me, I WANT NOTHING MORE THAN TO BELEIVE THIS!!!!! But I just can't. It's only been a few hours since she has seen the light?


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## Affaircare

showtime said:


> Ok one thing I just don't understand is, yesterday my W was soooo angry with me because of everything that had happened the past few days as I explained above. And now all of the sudden she wants to work it out and be a family again? Why all of the sudden, what does a few short hours time do to a person in that state of mind. I don't trust what she says. I fear she is afraid of being alone because her and TOM didn't work and now she has known that I was fighting for her and love her so she thinks I will just take her back, or at least that is what she wants, is for me to tell her we will go for it and we will be better than ever. Yes that is what I wanted but now I don't trust that she is all for the cause and she is just saying this stuff because her fear of being alone. I don't know, my W said church really shed light on things and she realizes what is important in life. And beleive me, I WANT NOTHING MORE THAN TO BELEIVE THIS!!!!! But I just can't. It's only been a few hours since she has seen the light?


showtime~

The "light" has been being more and more and more shed for her for a long time. She just tried to resist it for a while and/or pretend she didn't see it. For whatever reason, the day came this weekend where she decided she just couldn't resist it any longer and rather than be proud and fight hard for something she knew was wrong, she said "ENOUGH!" and turned around to what she knows is right. You know as well as I do that she knew the affair was wrong (deep down inside herself). She just didn't want to admit it. Now, she has had the courage to admit it...and yep, that can happen in just a few minutes even!

Soooo...she's a smart, intelligent lady. She has some clue about the damage she's done (maybe not the full entirety of it, but some clue), and part of her is thinking, "SH*T! Did I mess it up too much? Did I go too far? Is too much water under the bridge to fix this?" This is why I suggested that you don't particularly do anything THIS MOMENT other than to say "I'm willing to keep an open mind and let you have a chance." Likewise for her--ask that she keep an open mind and let you have a chance. 

All that we've been doing is sort of a Big Part One--Ending the Affair. Now you would be entering Big Part Two--Rebuilding A New Marriage. And you're just starting. Remember how you were freaking out when you started Big Part One and none of it made sense? It's likely to feel that way a little here too. But we are here showtime okay?


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## turnera

It may be that she just can't survive without SOME man wanting her (in her head). 

First thing I would do, if I were you, is have her write a No Contact letter to him, that she hands to YOU, and YOU mail to him. In it, she needs to say "I can never speak to you again, for the sake of my marriage and my family." No 'I love you but we mustn't be together' crapola. Have her keep writing it til the lovey stuff is all gone. Then you send it.

Then, I would recommend that you sign up for counseling with Dr Harley at marriagebuilders, while she's amenable, before the withdrawal kicks in. (unless affaircare does that sort of thing) He will not waste time on the past, but will give both of you concrete steps to take to solidify your marriage and affair proof it.

And I would keep in mind that you will both be on a rollercoaster - ups, down, stomach-wrenching twists and turns - until it all evens out and you're back on track. Marathon, not sprint. If she's up one minute and hates your guts the next...ignore it. To be expected. Deep breaths, in it for the long haul. No need to make harsh decisions any time soon.


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## Affaircare

P.S. Part to the work you'll have to do to rebuild is giving her the chance to be trustworthy again and learning how to forgive. Part of the work she'll have to do is helping you get through some of the emotional insecurity her actions caused and reassuring you and proving her honesty to you over and over and over (and over).


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## Feelingalone

Showtime,

Just stay calm, cool and confident. Take a deep breath, exhale. This is what you wanted and you did it with courage and conviction. Be thankful for what you have right now, the chance to create the deep meaningful relationship that you and your wife both want. Pat yourself on the back for making it this far, but be prepared to roll up your sleeves cause I imagine Part 2 is a whole lot harder than Part One.


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## Tanelornpete

> Well everyone my W says she wants to work on our marriage!!
> 
> I'm not sure at this point if that's what I want but we shall see.


I'm going to work on the assumption that you do want to save your marriage, that you love your wife (even when she has been less than perfect) and that you want to make things better than they ever were - stronger, more secure, and more loving. 



> ...she saw his true colors...watched Fireproof...went to church..the good doc also had a talk with her...


This is excellent news. This means some very important things: Your wife has the ability to make good moral choices, and can contemplate advice given to her. It means that she is trying to do what is right - but not only that - she _wants_ to do what is right. I repeat myself - there is hope for your marriage. Advice here: you, too, continue to do the right thing!



> And I know a couple of you guys aren't gonna be to happy about what I have been doing the past few days either. I have been hanging out with our mutual friend quite a bit with the kids and our mutual friend has kids the same age, and she is single. And our mutual friend really likes me and my W knows this. So my W was very upset that me and our mutual friend have been hanging out. We never did anything physical I couldn't do that to my W. I care about her too much.


Quite right, I am NOT happy about this. I made a conscious decision when I married my wife that I would _never_ put myself into a position where even the _appearance_ of an affair could be detected. I'm hoping you will make the same choice. Couple of reasons: it is a reassurance to your wife that you are a faithful man. It shows her that even when things are bad, you do not turn to another woman for solace. Second, by definition, an affair is "acting in a way so that affection and loyalty are not committed and dedicated to a private person to whom loyalty is due; not adhering to promises (vows)." It may be quite tempting, when feeling lonely, to turn to an understanding shoulder, or even to try to find out if you are actually a likable person. But I hold that your commitment as a husband includes the entire marriage, until it ends. That means that as a man you must face uncomfortable times - even if your 'help-meet' is not there for you. There is time, AFTER YOUR MARRIAGE ENDS, to find out if you are lovable, to find someone to console you, etc. Not when you are married. I advise you to make the decision that from now on you will not hang out with another woman unless your wife is there with you.



> But my W thought we were sleeping together.


As a person having an affair, it is easy for her to project her actions onto another person. But the fact that you placed yourself in a position where she could have this very valid thought is why I advise to avoid such situations!



> So my W and I had a very long talk tonite and she agreed that she would never talk to TOM again and she would give me full access to any and all emails and her FB.


This is very good - now, do all things in love. Do not check her mail vindictively, never access her Facebook out of anger. 



> She knows I am getting guidance from the internet and wanted to know what we should do next.


Advice here: make sure you tell her flat out that you love her, and you are her best friend, that you promise to stick with her through thick and thin, and that you vow to overcome whatever weaknesses within you that may have caused her harm. Always stay calm.

Then - do the Love Busters questionnaire with her. Tell her you tried to do it pretending you were here, but that she knows herself better than you - and you really want to know where you can change. You will also get the chance to go over yours quiz as well.

After that - do the Emotional Needs questionnaire.



> My W doesn't know if she should move out of her apartment and come back home or not. She is still a little skeptical of the future as am I. But I think if we are going to really work on this my W should be at home. But like I said earlier I am unsure if I want to work on it too.


I would give her a little time. Start work on the marriage NOW - and things will fall into place for you. She will come home when she feels safe (and my guess is that won't be very long.)

Final advice:

*Do everything in love.* (1 Corinthians 16:4)

----------------
Now playing: Rascal Flatts - Prayin' For Daylight
via FoxyTunes


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## showtime

Ok thanks everybody, my W will stay at her place for a while so we can figure it out. We went to mediation today and we agreed to dismiss the whole thing. My W put our wedding picture up on her bulletin board at work and a few other little things that made me feel like she is serious. I love her very much. But I am hesitant. That will become easier over time I suppose. My W also said she feels lost but found...


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## showtime

Update:

Well the past couple of days have been nice. Were getting along good and were working towards putting this behind us. We both understand that this is going to be very hard work but we have help. The good doc is going to council us once a week and we are all going to church every sunday as a family. Also I am continuing the Love Dare book, I had to put it on hold there for a few days because my W was so darn angry there was nothing I could do on those days, she was absent. But now I can do these things and she will notice. Last night the kids and I went over to her apartment and put a movie on for the girls and my W and I snuggled on the couch and watched a movie. I didn't stay the night, I think it's just too soon for that, even though I felt my W wanted me too. I think us spending some time apart even if it's a couple blocks away will bring us closer.


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## OhGeesh

Encouraging.......good luck.


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## created4success

showtime said:


> Update:
> 
> Well the past couple of days have been nice. Were getting along good and were working towards putting this behind us. We both understand that this is going to be very hard work but we have help. The good doc is going to council us once a week and we are all going to church every sunday as a family. Also I am continuing the Love Dare book, I had to put it on hold there for a few days because my W was so darn angry there was nothing I could do on those days, she was absent. But now I can do these things and she will notice. Last night the kids and I went over to her apartment and put a movie on for the girls and my W and I snuggled on the couch and watched a movie. I didn't stay the night, I think it's just too soon for that, even though I felt my W wanted me too. I think us spending some time apart even if it's a couple blocks away will bring us closer.


This is so great to hear. Things appear to be coming up, which is so wonderful! You're right to be a bit skeptical, under the circumstances, however, don't let this get in the way of restoration and the healing of your relationship. Sure the pain of what happened hurts and I don't mean to marginalize that. I just want to see the best for you guys and am so excited where you're headed!:smthumbup:


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## showtime

Thanks c4s, we are headed in the right direction, and it is getting better everyday, we have had a couple minor setbacks the past couple days, but I haven't let them get in the way. We are very much regaining the spark to fall in love again and rebuilding the trust. We both know it will take some time, but we are both actively proving ourselves to eachother everyday.

Also I would like to thank everybody that has posted and offered advice and encouraging words, I couldn't have done any of this without you!!!! And I don't know how I will ever repay any of you. I know once we work through this I will be able to offer advice and steer people in the right direction. And I suppose that will be repayment enough. Because all of you here are her to help and do it for the satisfaction of a success story like this one!!!

So once again THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## turnera

showtime, I'm glad things are going this direction. I just want to slow you down a bit and remind you that you are likely to experience a lot of ups and downs, where you will question your decision to fight for the marriage, and she will question coming back. Expect it, recognize it, and ignore it - you're in it for the long haul, not day to day issues.


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## showtime

Oh yeah, we both realize there will be ups and downs. But we both talked about this and understand it will be a long road to recovery. So were going to do everything we can to make our marriage better and stronger than ever.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## created4success

showtime said:


> Oh yeah, we both realize there will be ups and downs. But we both talked about this and understand it will be a long road to recovery. So were going to do everything we can to make our marriage better and stronger than ever.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The cool thing is that you both seem to have a realistic appraisal of where you guys are at in your marriage, where you're going, and what it will take to get there, which seems to be a far cry from earlier.

As I've said before, when you're both committed, ("So were going to do everything we can to make our marriage better and stronger than ever,") you're on your way to a better life together.


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## kenmoore14217

It's been a long haul Showtime, congratulations on your progress. Talk to you soon.


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## showtime

Thanks ken, I appreciate it. RWB, LOL!!!! thanks!!

Things are going well considering all that has happened. I was concerned my W would try to act like nothing had happened. But that isn't the case. Which is a good thing. We went to church yesterday and had a good time. We both aren't/weren't into church but aftrer we watched Fireproof (even though we watched it seperatly) we both felt that was the route to take. We haven't had a chance to talk with the good doc yet because he has been out of town for work but all three of us are looking forward to him counciling us. My W fog is lifting and she is realizing the damage she has done. Just yesterday we all went to my grandmas house for mothers day, which we do every year. And when we pulled up to the house my W took a dep breath and gave me that look of, "Here we go". But I told her I was proud of her and my family is too. ( Because they all knew what happened too) So my W was nervous as expected, but we went in and averybody was real welcoming to her and said they were glad she was back ect.... So things are headed in the right direction.


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## turnera

Awesome. Just think how overwhelmingly good it felt to her to acknowledge a mistake and see that when you do, you are forgiven and welcomed. It strengthened her reasoning that she did the right thing.


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## showtime

Hi everyone...just a little update...
My w and I are doing well. We are restoring the love and it shows. My w is sending me nice text messages from work and stuff like that. It is however a little bittersweet because I know she was doing the same thing with TOM. But it is what it is and things are looking up. I do struggle sometimes when thoughts pop into my head and trickle down to my heart. I try real hard not to let it get to me for too long. I think I do a pretty good job of modifying those thoughts but sometimes it's tough. All in all it is getting better everyday.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## showtime

Also, my W wants me to talk to her about what I,m thinking. These thoughts I have are horrible and I don't want to bring them up. But maybe that is the way to deal with them is to get it all out in the open. I feel like if I don,t bring it out in the open I am just pushing this down and not dealing with it. And that is what we have been doing with everyday issues in our marriage and that doesn't work obviously. So any thoughts on this or advice would be greatly appreciated!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## losinglove

I think you need to get everything out in the open. I'm sure it will be hard for you to talk about and for her to hear. But, doing it will show you have some trust in her, and she may begin to trust you with more.

If you do, I would ration them. Allow either of you to call a timeout and say that is enough for now.


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## kenmoore14217

That's what your wife was doing until you stepped in (Keeping her thoughts to herself) and started to put a stop to it so I would say that turnabout is fair play and probably very necessary for both of you to go forward. Having said that, if I were in your shoes would I be having some internal struggles right now trying to figure out how to tell my innermost secrets and thoughts to anybody, not to mention my wife! But you have handled everything to date with dignity and class so I'm sure you with this issue as well.


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## showtime

Thanks losinglove and ken, it's a wierd feeling I have inside. It's like I already know what happened and most of the details but for some reason I feel like I need to hear all of this straight from the horses mouth so to speak. I know it's gonna hurt like hell if I ask her what I want to know and she won't be afraid to tell me either. She has this attitude that if I don't like it, I don't have to be with her and my W is right, I don't have to be with her I/we just choose to be together out of love. And we are both aware of this. But her attitude bugs me a little. Could be her withdrawal or something else, I don't know for sure why she acts like that. It isn't that she doesn't care about me or love me, I can tell she does by her actions and how she shows me. I'm stuck here and it is putting a damper on us moving forward, because when I think about this stuff I shut down and don't talk, and have a blank stare on my face and she knows it, and that gets her upset with me. And I don't want that to happen even though things like this are going to happen and it's not gonna change over night. We both know it's going to be a long process. We go to the good doc tomorrow evening and he swears he will get us through this. And we want to get through this!!! ugghhhh....


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## turnera

You could also counsel with Dr Harley at marriagebuilders. He is excellent at getting post-affair couples to work things out.

I also would just keep a list, and sit down only once a week to discuss what happened. The rest of the time should be stress free, cos you know you'll have a chance on Sunday night or whatever to discuss it.


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## Affaircare

Hey Showtime~

I'm a little busy but let me send you something as quick as I can, okay?

I agree with the folks who've told you that you need to get it out. Part of the "transparency" thing that we teach people about is not only transparency on the part of the disloyal spouse, but also the loyal one. My guess is that before the affair, she was probably not letting you see the real her in a deep way and likewise you were probably not letting her see the real you. So part of the learning curve here in the Big Part Two: Recovering Your Marriage is to learn how to NOT do what got you to this point in the first place! 

You both need to be honest with each other and sometimes that is going to hurt! That being said, though, can you imagine what it's like to have that Disloyal Dizziness begin to clear and see the nuclear bomb that's gone off all around you...and know that YOU pushed the red button? It is a pretty heavy burden. Still it sounds like your wife is coming out of her dizziness fairly well and doing a LOT better--so you don't want to crush that or discourage it. Here's what I usually advise to people.

Each loyal spouse is different. Some want to know every detail and some don't. The reason you may want to know some details that are distasteful is that your spouse had all the pieces of the puzzle and saw the picture on the puzzle but you didn't have all the pieces! So you want to get all those pieces to see the whole picture! Other loyal spouses are okay know "it was a puzzle--I don't need to see every piece". Make sense? But as a disloyal it feels like a crushing interrogation to have to sit there and answer questions about something you did wrong that you know you did wrong that were REALLY harmful--it feels REALLY judgmental and blaming. Sooooo...you need to know and she can feel a bit judged for making a pretty big mistake (human? Yes! understandable? Yes!). I suggest that you two reach an understanding like this: "We both enthusiastically agree that showtime will ask TWO questions about the affair (the two that are bugging him the most that day) and that showtime's wife will answer thoroughly, openly and honestly ("I don't remember" does not count)."

Then showtime, you ask what is really getting your goat that day, being honest but loving. Give her a safe place to be honest, and no matter WHAT SHE SAYS if it drives you insane, mad or hurts like h#ll...just say, "Thank you for being honest. I'm going to take a minute to think about what you've said." And if she really is honest, even if it hurts, ask the two questions and be DONE. If you can, give her a hug or encouragement of some kind. 

If she asks, "What are you thinking about?" I would suggest being honest but again, in love. That doesn't mean hold it back or bury it--it just means that you word it honestly but also as thoughtfully of her as you possibly can. Thinking of her maybe having an STD and a little grossed out by bringing that to your marriage bed? Say, "I was thinking about the medical ramifications of the affair and maybe if we'll need to do a test or treatment together." Get it?


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## showtime

Thanks Affaircare, that's what I was looking for. And I agree that even though it is gonna hurt real bad to talk about these things, I am strong enough to deal with it and push forward, and I do think this will help us in the long run...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

Yeah--and I have to admit as a recovered disloyal, it's really hard to even have to remember some of that stuff I'm so ashamed of! Bear in mind she's also trying to look to the future, move forward, and stop thinking about the OM and the past. For her, recovery is about stopping those thoughts and thinking of you and her...happy.


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## showtime

Yeah, that is why I am VERY hesitant to even talk about these things, because I know we both feel like it is the past and we won't move forward by talking about the details of what she did. I know my W is done and doesn't even want to think about the details because she is ashamed of it. And that's why I think I should just let it go and worry about the future. And to not even discuss it because of her not necessarily me, I don't want her to even remember the the details of what she did, and she has told me she wants to forget about them too, and that it doesn't matter, she loves me and the past is the past. And she isn't acting like nothing happened either. I just don't know, I'm torn here...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

So, you can see why I say "Pick two that are really bugging ya"... It gives her some encouragement to know there will be an end to it all, and it gets it out of your system, but also gives you the info you need to move forward. 

Let's be honest, part of you NEEDS to know so you can reasonably believe it won't happen again.


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## showtime

Part 2 is brutal!
I am going to hold off until we talk to the good doc tomorrow...
Thank You!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## showtime

Well we got most of it out in the open. It wasn't as bad as I thought...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete

> Well we got most of it out in the open. It wasn't as bad as I thought...


I would like to give some kudos to your wife - I can see why you love her so much. She's a keeper! 

Do all you can for your marriage! It's worth it.

----------------
Now playing: Grand Funk Railroad - Time Machine
via FoxyTunes


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## showtime

Tanelornpete said:


> I would like to give some kudos to your wife - I can see why you love her so much. She's a keeper!
> 
> 
> Thanks Tanelorn, we are trying as hard as we can. We have counceling tonite, so we'll see how that goes. My heart was extra heavy this morning because of what was talked about last night, but that was expected.
> 
> Do all you can for your marriage! It's worth it.
> 
> ----------------
> Now playing: Grand Funk Railroad - Time Machine
> via FoxyTunes


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## showtime

My anger is starting to set in over everything that has happened with her affair. Somebody please talk me down! Were getting along good, but for some reason I,m pissed right now?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete

So, feel angry, feel it, acknowledge you are angry. It's natural and necessary. 

After that, treat your wife with love. Actively, deliberately do NOT take your anger out on your wife. Choose your actions, do NOT respond to emotions, CHOOSE what you will do - if necessary, one second at a time, before each response, etc.

Stay on track.


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## showtime

Thanks! I'm good. I won't take it out my W.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

Showtime~

It's okay to be angry. You have reasonable REASON to be angry! Furthermore, the immediate "danger" is over and now you're in a somewhat safe place to BE angry. The trick is this--don't pretend you aren't angry and don't whirl on her and call her names either. 

Learning healthy ways to express anger can strengthen relationships and improve communication skills – if you do it right (which can be difficult!). People may become offended, hurt, defensive or upset when you share angry feelings, even if you apply healthy anger management tips. People may feel blamed, inferior, or guilty. Still here are a few tips:


Share your angry feelings when you're calm, not furious.
Be tactful in expressing your angry feelings.
Use "I feel" instead of "You are" or "You did".
Refuse to criticize or blame.
Talk with the person about how to prevent future occurrences.
Exercise or write to release angry feelings.
Let it go. Don't hold a grudge.

I personally recommend my W-T-F-S method. That stands for: 
*When* you...
I *Think*..
I *Feel*...
*So* I'd like to request...

And it might sound like this:
"When you act like your affair was 'just a little mistake'
I think the damage you did to me was massive and didn't mean very much to you
I feel so worthless and belittled, like I just mean nothing
So I'd like to request that we take a little time today and do something that would encourage me that I do mean something to you...like could you give me a massage and tell me 5 billion times that you love me?"
(Now I made that one up but it's a guess about something that might be a typical thing that a loyal might feel "after")

This W-T-F-S method is kind of important because it makes you (the person feeling the feeling) put a name to the thing that triggered it, identify your THOUGHTS and your FEELINGS, and then make a request right out loud for what would make it better. Now, your wife is 100% completely free to say no--she may be exhausted from work too and not up for a massage! But she could then counter with what is she willing to do. 

Okay? Any questions?


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## showtime

Idk, it's really tough at times. And I know it's gonna be an emotional rollercoaster. But just a short time ago my heart was sooo hardened towards it all and I was accepting the fact that it was over. Now that were trying to fix things my heart has softened and it is overwhelmingly heavy at times. I try so hard to keep it together and be strong. I want to be with my W forever and she feels the same way. I can tell by the way she acts and shows me. And that's part of the reason I get down. I'm trying to understand how and why she feels so strongly towards me now and why she did what she did and put me and our family through the ringer. This will be the hardest thing we will go through and we are both committed, but man it's tough!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

Alright showtime--throw it out there. Right out here in public in front of God and everyone, ask that question that is driving you buggy. Is it something like: "How can you love me now and 5 days ago you were willing to destroy me and the kids emotionally?"


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## showtime

And I have never once called her a name or anything like that, EVER. And I know good ways to express my anger, and we did talk about it just now and I feel a little better about things, but it still just hurts so much. And I am fully aware it is going to take time. And I/we see the big picture.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## showtime

Affaircare said:


> Alright showtime--throw it out there. Right out here in public in front of God and everyone, ask that question that is driving you buggy. Is it something like: "How can you love me now and 5 days ago you were willing to destroy me and the kids emotionally?"


YES!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

Okay showtime, time for some nitty gritty that your wife may not have the guts to tell you. 

This most likely was not about you or hurting you--that was incidental. This was most likely about some deep resentment in her that she didn't know how to handle or talk about or something. I'll be blunt with you and it's not pretty and I'm ashamed but here goes okay? Mine was about 99% because I didn't want to be old. I am the one in our house who works and Dear Hubby is a SAHD. I felt like he was willing to hurt me in order to avoid a fight with his ex; like I was being used and taken advantage of; and like he preferred a certain activity over me--and we're both at that "menopause" kind of age so I just plain did not want to have sex be over! So while he did that activity...I wandered off and came up with an interest of my own. Initially it was like "well he likes politics and I'm EH about it, but I like the legal side" and I tried this game where you can rule a country. That lead to meeting some people and my country was VERY successful and they thought I was the SHAZBOT! So that felt like I was being noticed, which was neat. Then I got to write some legal documents (constitutions) and that was even MORE fun and they were good! So I got compliments. 

So you can see that didn't start off to be about "I'm gonna tear his guts out!" It started off and mostly continued because I liked feeling smart, beautiful, wanted and appreciated. And nope I didn't want to go back to being ignored and taken advantage of. 

Does that make any sense?


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## showtime

Yea AC I know exactly what your saying. The good doc put it the exact same way last night. Does it make me feel any better? NO!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

Can you tell what would make you feel any better? I mean obviously if she hadn't done it! But since she did...what could help?

Wanna scream and say bad words?


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## showtime

Idk? I just don't know. My W is doing everything right. I guess it will just take time and patience to feel better...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

If you could guess or if you did know--what do you think it might be? If you could just say anything you want, right out with no fear of "being thought less of" or no fear of being a meanie--what would you say that you're not saying now? 

This page here is where you can let some of that out


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## showtime

Honestly what would make me feel better is if my W would take some initiative and sign up over at marriagebuilders and try to figure out what I am going through and how to improve our marriage. My W claims she has never really had a broken heart in a relationship or devastated beyond belief. And that every relationship she has had ended on her terms so to speak. I'll have a talk with her about this and allow her to have that site as her safe place. She could be showtimeswife or something as her screen name. IDK? I have been so wrapped up in trying to figure out what she is/was going through and now she doesn't understand the termoil I'm going through. And don't get me wrong, I'm not mopin around all day looking pitiful, but some minutes and some hours are harder than others. I think I am doing very well considering the hell she put me through.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

You're mad now because before, you were scared of losing her and focused on that. Now that she's coming back to you, you can take a breath and unfocus, and have the anger you should have had at first.


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## MyDog8em

turnera said:


> You're mad now because before, you were scared of losing her and focused on that. Now that she's coming back to you, you can take a breath and unfocus, and have the anger you should have had at first.


:iagree: Couldn't've said it better meself!


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## ruthpurple

This is the time when you need to get your head together. Don't panic. Although you may not believe this, but you have the edge here, you know your wife better that anybody else, better than the other guy. Your wife right know is blinded with all the excitement and commotion of her emotional affair, you need to let her "see you" again, look back on the times when your love was new, what is it that your wife loves to do most? rekindle your memories, remind her that you and your relationship/marriage is real. This is also the perfect time to get away from it all, have a romantic vacation, get intimate and bond together. Women are indeed more prone to emotional affair, because they constantly need someone to listen and relate to, do this to her. Be more sympathetic, instead of provoking her or going against her, make her feel that you understand her and that you are willing to do whatever it takes to renew your relationship. I am telling you this because the more you provoke her emotional affair, the more it is going to get stronger, you will only fuel the intensity of her emotional affair. Get your wife back from the other guy by playing his game. Connect with your wife emotionally, listen, bond, and relate.


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## showtime

Thanks ruth, but I already have my W back...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

LOL  Hey showtime, will you tell us how you are? Inquiring minds want to know! If you're having some difficulty, we're here, and if you're doing good, I bet a small positive post would be encouraging to those still in the trenches.


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## showtime

Well thanks for asking AC. We are actually planning a little weekend getaway for just the two of us. We are getting along good and the love is being restored quickly!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

YAY!!! That's what happened for us too! I think I was honestly sad for about 4-5 days, then felt good progress, and within a month I felt entirely in love with Dear Hubby again. 

Now just so you know, we practice what we preach ourselves and not last Saturday but the one before that... we got sneaky and got a room at the coast with an ocean view ourselves! Then we spent the whole day on the ocean partially reliving our honeymoon. Yeah--that is some GOOD STUFF! Well worth the time and money spent!


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## showtime

Yes I agree AC. Should be a rejuvenating weekend.

My heart is still in a deep heavy pain. Time heals all wounds I guess...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## showtime

Well the weekend getaway was real nice, it went well. One of the issues I have though is with my W affection and issues and has been a problem for her throughout our marriage. She very rarely initiated sex, only one or two times in our whole marriage that I can remember, and her affection towards me has been almost absent our whole marriage too. And I almost feel like if anyone was going to have an affair it should have been me, I just choose/chose not to. I explained my feelings about this to her a couple weeks ago and we talked briefly with the good doc about it. The good doc said that sex is a learned thing with her type of women and that it takes work. My W seemed to listen to my concerns and I have talked to her about a few times in a caring way, but she isn't working on it or even seem like she is trying. The other night she fell asleep in my lap while I caressed her hair and last night I gave her a nice foot massage, I wasn't trying to get anything out of it, I love her and enjoy foing these things for her. I just feel like if she truly loved me she would do these kinds of things for me too. And when she doesn't I feel somewhat rejected. I don't know how to get through to her, and I can't make her do these things. Any suggestions would be great, I get frustrated thinking about it and I can tell it makes a small difference in my attitude.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

I'm not affectionate at all. Never have been. It feels fake to me. I want foot rubs, but I hate to give them! I'm just withdrawn that way. Maybe she is, too.

There's also the possibility that she's just withdrawn mentally from you. I'm a WAW - not necessarily invested in my marriage. So I would be acting the same way she is. So it's possible that, until she gets over OM and focuses on you again - and we're talking MONTHS, not weeks! - she will not be affectionate like you want, if she used to. 

So basically, if she used to do it but doesn't, you still have to do the heavy lifting right now to get her to want you again. If she never did it, she just may not be built that way and you'll have to accept it.


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## showtime

Bummer turnera, yeah she was never really affectionate. And she has totally invested back into our marriage, she seems to be totally over the OM and IS focused on me...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Go find the book The Five Love Languages. It will teach you how YOU show love and how SHE shows love. You need to know this so that when she DOES do things to show you she loves you, you'll recognize it.

It's like, my husband buys perfume, etc. for me. All I really want is a freakin' bookcase, and he knows it! I specifically ask for it! But he gives me the perfume anyway.

Why? Because that means love to him. So that's what he gives me. For many years, I gave him tools for presents, because that's what I would want - ways to make it easier to keep up the house. He hated them all. One year I gave him a weekend at a bed & breakfast sailing ship, and he was over the moon happy. I would rather have been back home working on the yard, but we went to the B&B because it made him happy. 

Do you see how that works?


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## showtime

Yeah I see how it works. But I still don't receive any affection...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

May I suggest some small affectionate things--like holding hands--and then pointing out "Oh it is so nice to hold hands again! Thank you!" Periodically a hug and then say, "Hugs feel so warm and safe. Thanks!" The idea is to associate "showtime = positive" remember? And that has to be a lifetime thing, keeping up the kindlers. Now as you've held hands and really taken the time to appreciate that you could be alone right now with no one who wants to hold hands with you, lived in the moment and enjoyed it, and as you've told her thank you--it might be conceivable to put in a request. Note that a request means she is free to say "No" and that she can then counter with what would work for her. So WTFS for this too: "When you hold my hand, I think I am the luckiest man in the world because I almost lost you, and I feel happy and close to you, so I'd like to ask if you'd be willing to occasionally reach out and grab my hand."

What do you think?


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## showtime

Yeah I've tried those things and will continue do say those things to her AC. Its weird though because she recognizes the issue and says she needs to work on it and does nothing?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

Okay showtime I have a couple questions to ask you before we start even talking about your wife. 

First, if your spouse knows she needs to work on it and does nothing there are no easy answers, but usually that indicates she's not quite willing to take the risk involved in changing. So one thing I'd suggest is making sure over and over that you are making it safe for her to be honest, to take emotional risks, etc. That is YOUR job (to act and react in a safe way) not hers. 

Next, I'd remind you that you can not change your spouse--you can only change you. If I remember correctly this is one of the issues you have as a human being and husband...a little tendency to try to control and get things your way. So can you accept your wife as she is--not all affectionate and romantic? Can you accept the affection she does try to show you? 

Then since you CAN change yourself I'd say...get to know you! Ask yourself questions like this:


How are you treating yourself that is causing you to feel unhappy?

How are you responding to your spouse's behavior that is making you unhappy?

Are you being reactive to your spouse's unloving behavior with your own unloving behavior, and then blaming your spouse for your reactions?

Do you have expectations of how your spouse should be if he or she really loves you, and then you feel disappointed because your expectations are not met? Do you need to reevaluate your expectation of your spouse, which may be unrealistic?

Are you being realistic about who your spouse is? Are you expecting your spouse to be someone he or she is not or doesn’t want to be?

Are you making your wellbeing dependent upon your spouse?

Are you taking responsibility for yourself, or are you abandoning yourself in some way?


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## showtime

Well AC I'm not trying to control her, I've recognized that issue and am working on that myself. And as far as being reactive to her not being affectionate towards Me, yes I am and didn't realize it until you said something, and now I feel bad. And as far as my expectations for her I do expect her to be more affectionate I don't think that is unrealistic for her, will it take time for her to be that way? Yes. And I am fairly patient with her, I'm just trying to figure out how to help her. Wether she is embarrased or shy, I don't know for sure what it is, probably a combination of both. And at times when she doesn't give me affection when I feel like I want it or need it and don't get it I do get a little down about it, and I'm not talking about sex, just stuff like grabbing my hand or giving me a hug out of the blue, stuff like that, that let's me know she's mine and I'm hers...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dawn74

turnera said:


> You must call her parents and his wife/parents and tell them what is going on. She needs to see that what she is doing is wrong and no one can bring that home like a parent. She won't hear it from you. If she has siblings, call them, too. Ask them to help you save the marriage, at least for the kids' sakes.
> 
> She has to be away from his influence before she will ever even consider you again. So your first step has to be stopping their contact.
> 
> If she refuses, call her family and his family. If they refuse to get involved, visit her HR department and tell them what's going on. Your marriage will NOT survive if she doesn't stop contact, and she can always get another job. She will be mad, but your marriage can survive her anger; it can't survive another man.


This is the craziest thing I have ever heard. If I was in this situation there is no way in hell I would ever talk to my husband again..if there was the slightest possibility of making it work..that would take care of that!! Why in the hell would you involve her family in this? That would totally end any possible chance.


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## Tanelornpete

> ...I'm just trying to figure out how to help her. Wether she is embarrased or shy, I don't know for sure what it is, probably a combination of both. And at times when she doesn't give me affection when I feel like I want it or need it and don't get it I do get a little down about it, and I'm not talking about sex, just stuff like grabbing my hand or giving me a hug out of the blue, stuff like that, that let's me know she's mine and I'm hers...


Try this - ask if you can hold hands. Ask her for a hug. Let her know how nice it is. It could be that she is shy, etc... But it also could be that she is out of the habit of showing affection. It's something that builds up over time into a habit. 

In any event, the only thing you want to avoid (something we all have to manage constantly) is to make her feel guilty because she isn't doing something you want. All that does is breed resentment, making the habit even harder to build. 

Just let her know how much you enjoy it when she does it - and let positive reinforcement build the habit...


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## showtime

dawn74 said:


> This is the craziest thing I have ever heard. If I was in this situation there is no way in hell I would ever talk to my husband again..if there was the slightest possibility of making it work..that would take care of that!! Why in the hell would you involve her family in this? That would totally end any possible chance.


That's funny because that actually worked talking to her family and my W said she would have called mine if the roles were reversed..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete

> This is the craziest thing I have ever heard. If I was in this situation there is no way in hell I would ever talk to my husband again..if there was the slightest possibility of making it work..that would take care of that!! Why in the hell would you involve her family in this? That would totally end any possible chance.


On the contrary, this is extremely effective - it works quite often. I've seen it work many, many times.


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## showtime

Tanelornpete said:


> Try this - ask if you can hold hands. Ask her for a hug. Let her know how nice it is. It could be that she is shy, etc... But it also could be that she is out of the habit of showing affection. It's something that builds up over time into a habit.
> 
> In any event, the only thing you want to avoid (something we all have to manage constantly) is to make her feel guilty because she isn't doing something you want. All that does is breed resentment, making the habit even harder to build.
> 
> Just let her know how much you enjoy it when she does it - and let positive reinforcement build the habit...


Thanks Tanelorn, I do give her positive reinforcement when she does do little things, so hopefully over time it will get better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dawn74

Why don't you do a poll and see really how many women would be ok with this??? Not very many!!! I promise you!


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## showtime

dawn74 said:


> Why don't you do a poll and see really how many women would be ok with this??? Not very many!!! I promise you!


Well it worked in this case, and that's all that matters. And why don't you do your own poll because we are well beyond that...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dawn74

Done!! You are giving your opinion like I am giving mine. This is coming from a female who does not agree with a cheating women, however from a womens point of view, this decision could cause the opposite of what he is trying to accomplish. So don't get upset with me just because I voice a different opinion than you do. That is what a forum is.


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## turnera

dawn, what makes you think anyone is upset with you? No one said a single disparaging thing to you.


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## Tanelornpete

> ...this decision could cause the opposite of what he is trying to accomplish. So don't get upset with me just because I voice a different opinion than you do. That is what a forum is.


There is no guarantee that EITHER side will get the results desired. We advise exposure because it has a higher percentage of success. It is based upon the fact that the affair is based primarily on its secrecy, on maintaining lies to keep it going. Bringing it to light removes much of the foundation for it. 

Basically, exposure is one of the tools used to pull the rug out from under the affair. 

Hiding it tends to strengthen it. In most cases, refusing to expose it results in the affair growing stronger and the marriage collapsing. Note, in MOST cases. Not all. 

However, the rule is that to the extent you enable your spouses affair, to that extent, it grows and overcomes the marriage 0- just like any other addiction.


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## dawn74

Tanelornpete said:


> There is no guarantee that EITHER side will get the results desired. We advise exposure because it has a higher percentage of success. It is based upon the fact that the affair is based primarily on its secrecy, on maintaining lies to keep it going. Bringing it to light removes much of the foundation for it.
> 
> Basically, exposure is one of the tools used to pull the rug out from under the affair.
> 
> Hiding it tends to strengthen it. In most cases, refusing to expose it results in the affair growing stronger and the marriage collapsing. Note, in MOST cases. Not all.
> 
> However, the rule is that to the extent you enable your spouses affair, to that extent, it grows and overcomes the marriage 0- just like any other addiction.


I think the outcome of his decision to air the affair would be based on the entire reason she decided to have the affair in the first place. Your right it could go either way, but that is also based on the fact that every women in different and it shoudn't take causing more pain and embarresment for the women. You are creating more problems that she will then will have to fight to get through.


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## turnera

We are equal opportunity exposure advocates, dawn. We tell women to expose, too. In fact, it usually works better, because for some reason men get a bigger kick out of having their cake and eating it too, and when the wife exposes and threatens that little threesome, he often comes scurrying back.

Exposure is what you do to someone who is ADDICTED to the chemical high she/he gets from sneaking and cheating. Exposure of adultery is no different from stopping an addict from receiving more drugs or an alcoholic from receiving more booze. Once their head clears and they realize what they were doing to everyone, they are often GLAD that their spouse FOUGHT for them, to bring them back from the grips of the addiction.

There is a lot of good information available in these threads and on marriagebuilders.com and elsewhere about exposure and why it works.


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## Tanelornpete

> You are creating more problems that she will then will have to fight to get through.


Actually, no. She created the problem (lying to family and friends) and the problem remains - and in fact will become obvious to others over time, especially if the affair does not end. Telling the truth, even if it upsets someone, is still the appropriate avenue to take. 

An affair is built on lies, you do not end it by providing more lies. All that does is enable it.

Regardless: the REASON someone chooses to have an affair is not connected to concealing it. It is infidelity - cheating - regardless of the rationale. She ALWAYS had another choice: an affair is NEVER a necessity, therefore, it is ALWAYS the wrong choice.



> Your right it could go either way, but that is also based on the fact that every women in different and it shoudn't take causing more pain and embarresment for the women.


This sentence is very convoluted and unclear. Especially that last use of the word 'women.' Did you mean 'woman' instead? If not, then let me be very clear: exposure is a step in the process of ending an affair. It is not gender dependent, men don't 'expose' the affairs of women, but women are not to expose the affairs of men. BOTH genders use the tool, and it is quite effective.

Moreover, exposure is NOT the first step you take. You first approach your spouse, let them know YOU know, and that you respectfully request that they end the affair. 

AT THAT POINT, _they have the choice of avoiding ANY more 'pain and embarrassment'_ - stop the bad behavior and start working on the marriage. If THAT does not work; if they decide to continue the affair, you must move on to other, more drastic measures, both to get their attention, and also to remove the support structure for the affair. 

That support structure is a network of lies - and in order to end those lies, you MUST reveal the truth. The alternative is to let the affair go on, and instead allow resentment and anger to grow between you. If the disloyal spouse knows you will do nothing else to save your marriage but whine and complain, get angry, and threaten to leave, they know they have you! They have a WHOLE NEW list of justifications for the affair: you whine, complain, have angry outbursts...and not only that, but you are helping them greatly! They believe that the marriage is a trap keeping them from perfect happiness - and if you leave - then wow! they are free to continue the affair - in fact - if you divorce before taking any other steps, you effectively end the affair and free them. 

Works if you want out of the marriage anyway!

The objection to exposure because it causes 'pain and embarrassment' is identical to refusing life saving surgery because 'it will hurt.'


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## Affaircare

Here's all I'm going to say. showtime ended the affair and saved his marriage; dawn74 is getting divorced after 6 months of marriage. I would simply ask "Which one seems like it work and which one do I want to be like?" 

Easy.


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## showtime

Idk everybody, things are weird right now. We went on a weekend camping trip together with our mutual friend and her kids. It went well I suppose but my W was had an attitude the whole time, just on edge I guess. My W and our mutual friend got into a heated argument and our mutual friend was yelling back at my W and said she was watching our kids while my W was out getting f*****. This obviously stung me more than it did my W. And also I was talking to our mutual friend about some of the things my W did and just to confirm the qeustions I had talked about with my W. And I had suspected my W was lying about some of the details because I already knew most of them, I just wanted to hear the truth from my W. Also our mutual friend had said my W and the OM talked about these things in front of her and our mutual friend hasn't lied yet. Even the stuff my W told the truth about, our mutual friend had told me previously, before my W wanted to work it out. And as far as my W affection issues with me, our mutual friend said my W was very affectionate towards the OM. And my W says she doesn't want us to get comfortable and start to fall back to our old ways. Which I agree, but I have stepped my game up in all areas of my life. While my W has gained ten pounds rarely shaves, which she shaved everyday before I discovered what was going on. And my W barely has any respect for me, she still says some real mean things and never apologizes. I don't know what to do here. I haven't got angry with her over this, and when I have a bad day or a bad few hours or whatever, which hasn't happened very often, my W doesn't do anything to help me through it, in fact she gets angry with me and tells me I need to get over it. Obviosly very selfish of her! HELP! PLEASE!...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iamnottheonlyone

My wife went to see her parents last night. As you might know she was very angry with me when I told her that I informed them of her behavior and sought their support. When she returned today she touched me for the first time in five weeks. However, the affair continues. Patience.


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## turnera

showtime, you are doing a great Plan A, BUT...there is one thing I think you are missing...self respect.

Plan A doesn't mean being a doormat, ok? It means being a great husband, but ALSO showing her that you deserve respect.

When she says something mean to you, let her know. Let her know you understand she's going through a lot of feelings, but that you deserve to be treated with the same amount of respect you are giving her.


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## showtime

Thanks turnera...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete

Couple of things to keep in mind:

1) She is still getting over the affair. Withdrawal can take some time. Part of that withdrawal is depression. Don't expect your wife to suddenly bounce to being a giddy 'in love' teenager when she has gone through thinking her marriage was falling apart, finding someone else who seemed to have the answers - and then losing that as well. It will take time. 

2) She is embarrassed by her actions, and having people around who keep her thinking about them makes her uncomfortable. Many, many people react to feeling embarrassed by being irritable, grouchy, etc.

3) You should be talking to your wife, not the 'mutual friend' about your wife's actions. Turning to another person for support is the very first stage of an affair. Be very careful You already headed down this road by turning to this woman when your wife was gone. In your wife's eyes it may be very easy to see a huge double standard: she can't turn to someone else when her spouse is hurting her - but you can?

4) Personal boundaries and deep understanding are things you must keep in balance. 

Boundaries: If your wife is saying mean things to you, let her know that hurts you, and it doesn't seem to be the thing needed to help create a strong marriage. Remember that she has said she doesn't want things to go back to the way it was - with you agreeing. It may be that she might need to step back when she feels hurt or sad and simply work through those feeling before coming back to you to talk.

Understanding: she is going through some very tough things right now: she has to face what she did, face people who KNOW what she did, and face both the fact that her affair was really not what she thought it was - AND that it is over anyway. 

Keep up the good work.


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## showtime

Idk how to deal with the lies my W told me about the details that are eating me alive. She was doing things that she would and won't ever do with me. I can't take her lying to me about it. I'm going to talk to her about all I know tonite.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Try not to make it an accusation - if you do that, she will be forced to protect herself, and will shut down, and you'll get nothing.

Present it as an issue YOU have, that YOU are hurt, etc. - not that you think SHE is a bad person or treated you badly, etc.


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## showtime

Ok thanks turnera I will...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## showtime

Idk she is just so manipulative, I can't take it, why is she prolonging the pain. I understand she may be embarrased or whatever, but this is urking me inside.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete

showtime said:


> Idk she is just so manipulative, I can't take it, why is she prolonging the pain. I understand she may be embarrased or whatever, but this is urking me inside.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


WHO is prolonging the pain? Who is _experiencing_ that pain?

What happens is that we tend to get a negative idea stuck in our heads, and 'dwell' on it - going back to it, over and over, re-experiencing the pain. We get into a habit of it, and want the person who caused the pain to make it go away!!!

You are hoping that she will somehow fix that pain. But truthfully, the pain is entirely yours - it is an emotional response to a thought you are having. To get rid of that pain, replace the thought with a positive one. 

If you don't your wife will close more and more of you out until you are right back to where you started. 



> Idk how to deal with the lies my W told me about the details that are eating me alive. She was doing things that she would and won't ever do with me. I can't take her lying to me about it. I'm going to talk to her about all I know tonite.


Ask yourself, truthfully - to what end are you needing these details? WHY do you need to know ALL of this? This always seems like a huge detriment to me - it is akin to digging into a wound and scratching it over and over, undoing all the healing that has taken place. 

In essence, it seems that you are looking for answers to a non-existent problem. The affair happened. It happened because there were troubles in your marriage that weren't addressed. And I bet you an infinite amount of money that 'the things she did that she wouldn't and won't ever do with you' are NOT in ANY way the things that caused that affair. 

That means that you are distracting yourself from repairing your marriage by focusing on things your wife may or may not have done while in fantasy land. THOSE WERE NOT THE TROUBLES THAT CREATED THE ENVIRONMENT WHERE AN AFFAIR FELT LIKE THE ONLY OPTION. Work on those instead of growing resentful because she won't give you details of her actions...instead of turning back to the marriage. 

Time heals all wounds. Give yourself some time, instead of lashing out at her because you are hurt. And I believe that no matter how nicely you keep bringing this up that the results will be negative and detrimental. Its just nice lashing out. Gentle pokes, gentle insults, underhanded irritation. It is not helpful. You are poking the hurt - and keeping the wound open. Let it heal.

----------------
Now playing: Larry Carlton - Silky Smooth
via FoxyTunes


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## showtime

I'm trying to let it heal, but the lies are tearing me apart. I feel like a fool because she doesn't think I can handle it? Or I will kick her to the curb if I knew what really happened? I know everything, and she flat out lied when I asked her these things. I feel played, like a sucker. I can handle the truth, her lying to me is why I'm not allowing myself to close the wound...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Why don't you just tell her that you KNOW the truth, and you KNOW she is lying to you?


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## showtime

I have turnera, she manipulates me into thinkoing otherwise, and I've allowed it up until where I am at know, I've had enough and can't take it, I thought I could, its been a month now and it eats me everyday. I feel like she doesn't trust me with the truth, yeah she might be afraid I will tell her to get lost, but I feel like she owes me that so I can make my own judgment, and by her not telling me and leaving it up to me, its not fair and I feel like a fool and a sucker...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete

Ok, so _what_ won't she admit? _What_ doesn't she want to talk about? 

And _wht_ doesn't she want to talk about it.

And, finally, _WHY_ must she talk about it now, as opposed to, say, a month or two or three or five down the road when things feel more safe? 

Why is it SO important _now_, that it is the single driving issue in your life? 



> I can handle the truth, her lying to me is why I'm not allowing myself to close the wound...


Since you already KNOW the truth (supposedly) this is entirely irrelevant. You are not allowing the wound to close because she isn't conforming to the behavior you've assigned to her. You want her to say the words, and it appears that you will stop at nothing - including causing damage to your relationship - to make her do that. People resent being controlled. 

Why are you so convinced that if she does not tell you TODAY, that she will NEVER tell you?

Is this part of the reason an affair started in the first place?


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## showtime

Idk everybody, the pain I feel inside because she won't tell me the truth is putting a damper on things, I just want to get it all out now so we can move forward, everytime I look at her I think of these lies and have to put on a face, I can't stand that!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete

Emotions are responses to prior thoughts. That is, something occurs, you process it (think about it) and create some sort of rational judgment about it. Depending on what the outcome of your thinking is (that is - the CONCLUSION you reach), your body then responds with an emotion.

In short: something happens, you determine what that means to you, and you have a corresponding chemical reaction to it (adrenaline, dopamine, etc.) - to which you also add a conclusion (adrenaline means I need to fight, etc...)

It is the THOUGHT process, the conclusions you reach, that affect every aspect of your life. How do you respond to people around you? By the time you feel an emotion, an entire conversation has gone on in your mind.

The pain you feel is NOT because she won't tell you the truth.

The pain you feel is because you are TELLING yourself she SHOULD tell you the truth. And that _'should'_ is where the problem lies. 

SHOULD means that you are attempting to control someone:

You make a rule.
They are to abide by it, 
because you are the grand and exalted rule maker.

If they do not obey, your established law of conduct for them has been broken, and you then experience emotions: anger, frustration, sadness, etc.

And because you feel those, you believe that you must arrange reality accordingly to either make the feeling go away, or to prolong it.

In all cases, you make your decisions based upon whatever you feel at the moment. 

You are 'should-ing' all over yourself. And her.



> I just want to get it all out now so we can move forward, everytime I look at her I think of these lies and have to put on a face, I can't stand that!


First thing: rewrite 'I can't stand that' to 'I WON'T stand that' - you won't die from it. Live on earth will not vanish. So it is more truthful (and this is something you 'should' pay close attention to - you are demanding 'truth' from your wife) to say _won't_ instead of _can't. Can't_ implies impossibility. 

Second: 

You want this truth out so 'we' can move forward? What makes you think, if you spend months having temper tantrums, emotional explosions, and massive self pity - that SHE will want to move forward?

How about building a foundation of trust so that she will feel safe enough to tell you? How about acting based upon rational thought, rather than based upon whatever emotion you are feeling right now?

It seems to me that the issue is NOT her 'wanting to save you from pain' but her not wanting to face all the emotional rainstorm that comes every time she talks about something controversial!


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## turnera

showtime said:


> I have turnera, she manipulates me into thinkoing otherwise, and I've allowed it up until where I am at know, I've had enough and can't take it, I thought I could, its been a month now and it eats me everyday. I feel like she doesn't trust me with the truth, yeah she might be afraid I will tell her to get lost, but I feel like she owes me that so I can make my own judgment, and by her not telling me and leaving it up to me, its not fair and I feel like a fool and a sucker...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So tell her THAT.


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## showtime

I will turnera, and I haven't blown up on her once throughout this whole deal, and I know I won't freak out if she told me the truth, and your right, I won't stand it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete

> ...and your right, I won't stand it!...


May have hit on why that affair happened in the first place! Showtime, my friend - you let your emotions dictate your wife's actions. 

I have to point this out: if you run your life based on 'woe is me, woe is me, poor me,' you will always receive new opportunities to feel that way. You are all upset that your wife is not conforming to the requirements you create to rid you of an emotion! As if the cures you devise actually work!

What happens if she DOES get so angry or frustrated that she gives you the words you have told her to tell you. What if she lies to please you? What if she just makes up NEW stuff about what went on because you spend day after day after day wallowing in self pity simply because she won't mouth stuff to you that you already 'know' (what makes you think it is all true anyway?)

How would you know if she is telling you the truth? What if she just makes stuff up to please your sense of what you need to feel more pain?

What will she think of you then? How is this 'moving forward'?

If you _win_ this battle, what makes you think she will be willing to go on?


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## showtime

I am not running around in self pity all day. We have a really good time together and have spent a lot of quality time together. I haven't jumped her goat about anything. And I will repeat I am not running around in self pity. This stuff here I bottle up. And talk top you guys about...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## showtime

Also I think the affair happened because my W is a very selfish person, always has been. In all aspects of her life, selfish wheb it comes to money, selfish lover, and everything in between. She is flat out selfish, and all of our friends and family know it, and she knows it too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

But you're still not moving forward. You're just silently stewing.

Remember, no matter what SHE has done, you have to give her a REASON to want to work things out with you. That's what Plan A is for (carrot and stick) - make YOURSELF what she wants to spend her effort on.

What are you doing for yourself, to stop obsessing about what SHE has done? She is not your appendage, but a complete human being. EITHER of you could live just fine without the other. Mentally, you may not have what you want, but you CAN survive. It seems like you need to step back and get some perspective on just how important this relationship is. Sure, it's what you want. But it's not essential to your life. 

We're trying to tell you that we don't see you moving on, expanding your OWN life, getting a life, _reaching a balance_. Your marriage won't survive if you don't. Because the more effort you put into not getting what you 'want,' now that she's back, the less effort you're putting into giving her what she wants in this marriage.


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## turnera

showtime said:


> Also I think the affair happened because my W is a very selfish person, always has been. In all aspects of her life, selfish wheb it comes to money, selfish lover, and everything in between. She is flat out selfish, and all of our friends and family know it, and she knows it too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 So?


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## showtime

So idk I'm pissed off and don't know how to handle it or what to do!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete

You may not be showing her self pity - you are 'putting on a face' (I think that was what you said) - but what you are experiencing, what you are feeling IS self-pity. And it is coloring what will happen in the future. You say you won't move on until she starts mouthing the words you expect her to say:

Don't you think she also senses that you are not moving on?


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## Affaircare

showtime~

I am going to talk to you now as someone who's been in your wife's shoes, and I want you to put everything else down (if you can) and read what I'm going to say, and think about it. You ready? 

Here's what I see happening from the point of view of a disloyal person who sort of recovered from it  The affair happened because something was not kosher in the marriage. My guess would be that she felt lonely, unloved, etc. but mainly knowing you, that everything she did was wrong and if she did something it created this huge emotional, knee-jerk response from you. Those things are the Love Extinguishers--remember them? The things a person does in their marriage that puts on the flame of love. Now you and I (and Tanelorn and turnera) have known each other for a while now haven't we? And what is the Love Extinguisher that you do fairly often--that we've called you on from time to time? You tell me. 

...

You tend to get all emotional, flailing around by the seat of your feelings, and you tend to try to control. Right? (nod)

showtiime--what did we teach you and what did you learn while your wife was gone and with OM? Did you walk you through each time how to stop, slow down, use your head and not "shoot from the hip"? Did we point out to you the little ways you try to make things go your way and control her and things in general? 

Now here we are, your wife has done the right thing and ended it with the OM. She is with you and wants to rebuild your marriage so that you feel loved and she feels loved. So showtime...what are you doing? Are you remembering what taught you about taking actions based on your feelings? Or are you remembering the new ways we showed you about stopping, thinking, waiting until your emotions are in check? Are you trying to make her do things your way, or being the new showtime allowing her to be your equal partner and tell you when SHE is ready to talk? Are you dumping buckets of water on her flame of love? Or have you stopped those behaviors that lead to your wife having an affair? 

showtime, speaking as a former disloyal, if I were in your wife's shoes here's what it would look like to me. I did the right thing. I gave up the man who made me feel loved and alive for one who interrogates me, wants me to tell the truth but then pouts and is all emotional for DAYS afterward if I do, who hasn't changed a bit and now I'm STUCK in a marriage where I am not cared for and not even an equal partner in! Nothing has changed and no wonder I wanted to get out of here! 

Is that REALLY how you want your wife to feel? Because if it's not, you are going to have to *CHOOSE* to make drastic changes RIGHT NOW! And the number one change you need to make right now is to stop. Stop blaming your wife for your feelings. You feel pain right now because you are choosing to dwell on something you can not force. Sooooo... to end the pain, stop dwelling on that. Train your mind to think of something else. Every time your mind wanders there--think of something about your wife that you love and that you are grateful for. You learned how to stop being emotional before, calm yourself, and settle down so you can choose how to act wisely---do that again. The second *HUGE *thing you need to do really badly is to STOP THE LOVE EXTINGUISHERS!!! I guarantee you, if you continue like this you will lose your marriage. 

To make it simple the two things you need to do after the affair is ended is to 1) end all Love Extinguishers and 2) start again with the Love Kindlers. Have you done the questionnaires yet together? Hey do ours or the Love Busters/Emotional Needs on MB--I don't care. But that is where your can put your mind and energy. That is what will save your marriage (not this).


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## Tanelornpete

> Also I think the affair happened because my W is a very selfish person, always has been. In all aspects of her life, selfish wheb it comes to money, selfish lover, and everything in between. She is flat out selfish, and all of our friends and family know it, and she knows it too.


In reality ALL affairs happen because people are selfish - they want something for them self. We are all selfish in that aspect. But I doubt seriously that's what you mean. And I doubt that the affair happened because she was selfish. It THAT was the cause - why now and not years ago?


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## Affaircare

Do you want some practical help dealing with this pain and anger? Here is a little breathing exercise for ya. (Instructions: simply read this to yourself slowly and breathe.)


_Feeling pain in my heart, I breath in.
Suffering from the pain in my heart, I breath out.

Feeling my heart breaking, I breathe in.
Feeling as if my heart will break in two, I breathe out.

Feeling the pain is too great to live with, I breathe in.
Feeling as if the pain is going to swallow me up, I breathe out.

Feeling hurt, I breathe in.
Finding hurt where I want love, I breathe out.

Feeling frustration and anger, I breathe in.
Feeling frustration and anger boiling inside, I breathe out.

Wanting things to be different, I breathe in.
Wanting to change him/her, I breathe out.

Wanting attention, I breathe in.
Craving attention, I breathe out.

Wanting gentle touch, I breathe in.
Wanting loving touch, I breathe out.

Feeling I am not good enough, I breathe in.
Seeing nothing good about me, I breath out.

Feeling shame about my body, I breathe in.
Feeling that I am unlovable, I breathe out.

Feeling that no one loves me, I breathe in.
Suffering from not feeling loved, I breathe out.

Feeling frustration, I breathe in.
Feeling fear, I breathe out.

Being afraid that nothing will ever change, I breather in.
Wanting love in my life, I breathe out.

Feeling fear that I will not have what I want, I breathe in.
Feeling fear and anxiety, I breathe out.

Noticing that I am ok, I breathe in.
Noticing that I am ok, I breathe out._


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## showtime

Lol thanks ac your right...as usual...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## showtime

So I'm gonna break out my own 2x4 here. So basically you guys are saying get over it, move on and focus on my W and our marriage?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete

My advice is work to get past the emotional quagmire and focus on your marriage - as you create a loving and trusting relationship, it will become more and more easy to both present and handle the truth.

Take it as a guideline - if you start feeling panicked about something going on, you are probably allowing your emotional state to determine your actions, rather than the reverse...


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## turnera

showtime said:


> So I'm gonna break out my own 2x4 here. So basically you guys are saying get over it, move on and focus on my W and our marriage?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 I would say, more like say to yourself:

I know I have issues with the person I married. I know I'm not thrilled right now. I know it's driving me crazy not to have the fairy tale marriage I thought I was getting, and to be stuck with a woman I want to love, but who hurt me. I know I want to have ME time, where she works her ass off to make it all up to me, because I deserve to be treated right for a change.

But...that isn't my life right now. Right now, I have THIS wife, THIS life, and I can either choose to be STUCK here and wallow in misery, or I can accept what I do have and figure out how to make it better. 

Then, later, I can sit down and figure out if I ended up with what I want. For now, I will refuse to dwell on it because there are more important things in life than a 'feel good' moment today, which I get at the potential expense of a long-time happiness tomorrow.

For now, it is what it is.


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## Affaircare

showtime said:


> So I'm gonna break out my own 2x4 here. So basically you guys are saying get over it, move on and focus on my W and our marriage?


Yeah kind of. I would say use this as a learning experience. Like Tanelorn says, next time you feel yourself feeling "like this" just recognize it and say "Oh I can get myself out of this" and then stop, breathe, wait until your brain clicks back on. 

With regards to the pain and the lies and stuff--I would say that you consider it "in the bigger picture" rather than each minute piece. You know that she did cheat, she did have some feelings for the guy (fantasy or no) and she did have some kind of sexual activity with him. So looking at the big picture, why don't you see if there are some things you can let go? Maybe you could do something like make a list of details you can let go of and another list of details you do need to know. For example, you probably could let go of this one: "On (date) you said you came home at 11pm and I suspect you may have been out later than that...were you?" and you may need to find out more details on this one: "I know one day you said you went to the hospital for something, yet I know it was related to STD somehow. I do need to know if we are medically safe or not for my own health. What have you done to test for STD's?" See what I mean?

The affair shook your foundation and everything you depended on and believed in was rocked--it's understandable to hurt from that. But it's NOT reasonable to continue Love Extinguishers and hurt your wife in the name of making yourself feel better. It's also not reasonable to "put on a false front" because as much as you want her to be honest and transparent with you, you need to take that same risk with her. I would suggest showing her your vulnerable side though rather than "The Inquisitor"


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## Quads123

turnera said:


> I would say, more like say to yourself:
> 
> I know I have issues with the person I married. I know I'm not thrilled right now. I know it's driving me crazy not to have the fairy tale marriage I thought I was getting, and to be stuck with a woman I want to love, but who hurt me. I know I want to have ME time, where she works her ass off to make it all up to me, because I deserve to be treated right for a change.
> 
> But...that isn't my life right now. Right now, I have THIS wife, THIS life, and I can either choose to be STUCK here and wallow in misery, or I can accept what I do have and figure out how to make it better.
> 
> Then, later, I can sit down and figure out if I ended up with what I want. For now, I will refuse to dwell on it because there are more important things in life than a 'feel good' moment today, which I get at the potential expense of a long-time happiness tomorrow.
> 
> For now, it is what it is.


What a great statement... Bravo!!


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## showtime

I'm through dwelling on everything. It doesn't do any good for me or her. I do have bad thoughts from time to time yes. But I have learned to be proactive instead of reactive. When stuff like that goes on in my mind I think of how much I love her and what I really have. Yeah its not the greatest relationship yet but I am hopeful and working towards the long term future we will have. And when I get a little down I think of what I do have and pick myself back up quickly. Its the only way to do it. Also when I do get a little down I send my W a nice little text saying hi or I love her or something like that, and she always sends me something nice back, and that helps me feel better instantly!

Just thought you guys would like to know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

I'm really glad to hear that showtime. I know how you feel--been there myself! It's not perfect, and at times it's hard to discipline your mind to think of the present and what might be in the future...but then again you have a huge blessing! Your disloyal was deep into it and saw the light and wanted to come back to you!

I do have one idea and it's a little weird, but if you can gently let your mind go there, you mentioned that your wife was affectionate with the OM but not as much with you. About 90% of that was her way of making the fake/fantasy seem real, but some bit of it was really coming from her heart...so here's my idea. There were some things that OM did that brought out the romantic, poetic, affectionate lady in her--it is in there and part of her personality. So not to "copy" the OM but learn about your wife, try to think what it was that he did that caught her attention in the first place and then unlocked that part of her. 

Here is my outright GUESS. She probably felt like he pursued her a little (expressed *interest!* in her thoughts, her feelings, her day...her!). She may have enjoyed the attention--putting the cares of the world aside and focusing just on her for HER. She may have fallen for some loving, smooshy words and actions (like love poems, flowers, ecards, "I can't live without you!" and all that stuff). She probably liked the fun! Being married to the same person can feel a little "same old same old" and it breathes a breath of fresh air to put everything down and just plain have FUN together! Laughing is good. So if you can give an estimated guess what it was OM did for her that she liked, you can step in and do that for her yourself and really build the flame of love! 

Likewise it is reasonable to ask for what you want. In fact, as part of the being open and honest with each other, I'd recommend that you request what you would like. The thing to remember though is that it is a REQUEST (not a commandment) and that she's free to say no or counter-offer what she would be willing to do. Honestly? It makes life a LOT easier if you ask right out for what you want. Trying to guess and figure it out by hints and suggestions is ... well it's tiring and hard. :lol: So just take the risk and speak right up and ask--let her know "I would like it a lot if you'd be willing to do XYZ."


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## showtime

Its funny I have been doing all those things you said. Sending her sweet text messages while she is at work, calling her cute little names that I haven't called her yet like sweet cheeks ect. Taken her coffees and bagels to her work and just popping in to her work for a kiss or to say hi, all kinds of stuff like that. And she texts back the same things and we post romantic stuff on eachothers FB pages all the time. And all that stuff gets me going, but when we meet up after work its like nothing happened sorta. Its wierd, I am usually home before she gets there and I try to greet her with a big ol' hug and a romantic kiss but she barely hugs back and just gives me a peck on the lips. Then at bedtime she usually turns her back away from me when we lay down, and I try to open her up and talk to her a bit and she will turn over and I will snuggle in to her but after 5 or 10 minutes she just rolls back over and goes to sleep. I am trying everything I can, and I don't get upset with her, it is frustrating but I don't let those emotions control me, í just let it go and say goodnight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## showtime

And another thing that bothers my W real bad is our mutual friend. My W swears something happened between us. Nothing physical happened, but I suppose emotionally yes. Our mutual friend was there, telling me I didn't deserve this and all that stuff. could that be an emotional affair? I suppose it could, I never really thought about it until right now. So with that being said, how can I help my wife through that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete

> And another thing that bothers my W real bad is our mutual friend. My W swears something happened between us. Nothing physical happened, but I suppose emotionally yes. Our mutual friend was there, telling me I didn't deserve this and all that stuff. could that be an emotional affair? I suppose it could, I never really thought about it until right now. So with that being said, how can I help my wife through that?


This was something that deeply concerned me when you mentioned what you were doing: both the impression your wife would get - and the fact that you were turning to another woman for emotional support - it is, if not the actual thing, the very beginnings of an emotional affair. It's best when you are in the situation you are in to stay OUT of anything that may even give the appearance of wrong.

As such: what would you ask of your wife? You owe her the same courtesy and honor. So, put yourself in her shoes: imagine that she was hanging out with another man talking about your marital issues.

What would you expect of her?

What is most important right now is to do whatever it takes to build up a trusting and loving relationship.


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## mguy

showtime said:


> And another thing that bothers my W real bad is our mutual friend. My W swears something happened between us. Nothing physical happened, but I suppose emotionally yes. Our mutual friend was there, telling me I didn't deserve this and all that stuff. could that be an emotional affair? I suppose it could, I never really thought about it until right now. So with that being said, how can I help my wife through that?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hey showtime,

I've been married for 6 years now, and from my experience, I can say straight out you can't. You can't help your wife see things differently...unless you show her with your behavior and build trust over time. I know it's hard to accept that there's no quick fix, but the best thing to do is not to have this mutual friend in the picture for a while. The best solution is to not stir things up and just avoid triggering activities. Hope that helps.

btw I'm new here, so hi everybody. I was drawn to this thread because my wife actually cheated on me a long time ago. However it was my emotional overreaction that just blew it out of proportion and made the healing take much much longer than it really needed to. 

Anyway, thought it was about time to share my experiences and hear what' going on with others. 

Mike


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## showtime

I just don't understand my W I am doing everything I can to tell her how I feel and show her how much I love her and being the best husband ever. And my W tells me how much she cares and says that I'm her world, and that she loves me because my love is unconditional and that I have stuck by her and all that stuff. But she doesn't show me any love at all. I give her massages and foot rubs and try to kiss her romantically and she just pushes me away, or asks what I'm doing. And I feel so rejected by that. She won't allow me to make love to her like I want. She has all these excuses for stuff. And last night we were watching the MTV movie awards and Sandra bulluck was on, and my W says jesse james was an idiot, and why would anyone cheat on sandra bullock, I didn't say anything about it, but I thought to myself...gee thanks for the blow to my self confidence mrs. Showtime....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

You're trying to move too soon. We're talking months here, showtime, not weeks. Don't be so touchy. Do meet her needs. But explain YOUR needs and ask her to meet them. But back off on trying to get her to reciprocate emotions right now; withdrawal takes a long time.

Imagine if you were told you could never see her again, and moved in with someone else, who badgered you because you weren't being lovey enough. Could YOU just turn on the spigot? No. You still have Mrs Showtime on your mind.

She has to go through her withdrawal til she stops thinking about him.


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## showtime

Yeah I guess so turnera, but why would she tell me all these things and not show me how she feels? Why even say that stuff at all? If I am her world and all that, why can't she show me!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Amplexor

turnera said:


> You're trying to move too soon. We're talking months here, showtime, not weeks. Don't be so touchy. Do meet her needs. But explain YOUR needs and ask her to meet them. But back off on trying to get her to reciprocate emotions right now; withdrawal takes a long time.
> 
> Imagine if you were told you could never see her again, and moved in with someone else, who badgered you because you weren't being lovey enough. Could YOU just turn on the spigot? No. You still have Mrs Showtime on your mind.
> 
> She has to go through her withdrawal til she stops thinking about him.



:iagree:

Circumstances and environments can change very quickly, but emotions generally don't. Give it time.


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## turnera

showtime said:


> Yeah I guess so turnera, but why would she tell me all these things and not show me how she feels? Why even say that stuff at all? If I am her world and all that, why can't she show me!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Because she knows it's what you want to hear. It's a lot harder to show it physically, believe me. Especially for a woman. She has to replace him with you in her feelings. Takes time.


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## showtime

I just sense that she is returning to her old self, and not trying to repair our marriage...she is getting comfortable again, and just pacifying me so I won't be with someone else..I reall feel like me almost sleeping with our mutual friend woke her up, and now that my W has me back and knows I will stick by her, she is relaxing, while I am doing all the work?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

What hoops have you set up for her to jump through, to prove to YOU that she is trustworthy and deserves you?


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## Feelingalone

Showtime, listen to Turnera. Set up the hoops she needs to go through to show you she is trying. But remember, she is back with you right now. Not too long ago you thought that would never happen. So take stock and enjoy being blessed in a position that many others on this board would cut off an appendate to attain.

Patience is a virtue. But set up the hoops too. Just don't set some short random time frame. As Turnera and AC have said -- it takes time for the emotions. Listen to Amp he's been where you were and where you are at now.


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## showtime

Ok I'm having a 2x4 moment here...fill me in on these hoops I should setup, I may have set some up already, but please explain further...I mean she is being fully transparent...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

showtime said:


> Yeah I guess so turnera, but why would she tell me all these things and not show me how she feels? Why even say that stuff at all? If I am her world and all that, why can't she show me!


showtime~

Do you remember when Tanelorn and I told you that there were two big steps? Step 1 = End the Affair and Step 2 = Rebuild the Marriage. Remember that? 

Right now I think you are wanting her to do some of the stuff she "used to do" (or that you heard she did with OM) rather than building something new. And what you are describing now may be a perfect example of differing Love Languages, different Myers-Briggs personality types, and not communicating Love Kindlers/Love Extinguishers to each other. Let me give you an example and see if this sounds familiar. 

I am an INFP and my Dear Hubby is an INTP/INTJ. My love language is Words of Encouragement and his love language is Acts of Service. My Love Kindlers are Emotional Commitment (affection and admiration) followed by strong Social Commitment (spending recreational time together) and Physical Commitment (touches, kisses, hugs, sex) and Spiritual Commitment (being honest and moral). Some huge Love Extinguishers for me are being ignored and angry explosions. Dear Hubby's Love Kindlers are Emotional Commitment (affection), Family Commitment (child-rearing and sharing chores), and some strong spending recreational time, touches-kisses-hugs, and honesty-faithfulness. Anyway, do you kind of get the idea? We are very similar and yet a little bit different. 

When we had not communicated to each other what our Love Kindlers were or what our personalities were, we actually had situations like this happen. On the weekend, I'd finally get off work and he'd think, "I'm going to show her I love her and change her oil!" so he'd spend all day tinkering on the car. I would think "Why doesn't he spend any time doing something fun with me? Doesn't he love me?" Likewise, he's an introvert and I'm on the verge of introvert/extrovert, so I like to chit chat and share an idea as I'm forming it - whereas he won't talk until he's completely evaluated the idea. So he says "I love you" once and that is in effect until he changes it--saying it over and over is redundant. I, on the other hand, love to hear it over and over like singing. So I'd think "Why doesn't he tell me he loves me? Doesn't he feel it?" and he'd think "Well I told you I loved you right? That didn't change." :lol: Finally, his love language is Acts of Service, so I'd send him little notes, write him love poems, and be all smooshy and he'd think, "Okay that's all well and good but why don't you help me with dishes and laundry and vacuuming? Don't you love me enough to help?" 

OY, can you see what I'm saying here, showtime? We obviously LOVED each other, but what meant "I love you" to me did NOT mean "I love you" to him. He kept saying it in his language and I didn't receive the message--and I kept saying it in my language and he didn't receive the message. If I want to say "I love you" to my Dear Hubby (and I do!) then I have to express that in his language! And I can't do that if I don't know what his language *IS* can I?

My GUESS--and it's a pretty educated one--is that she may be saying "I love you" to you in a language that does not mean "I love you" to you. So, once again, I suggest that you both fill out these questionnaires and then share the results with each other. The idea is not to make it a big, blaming, horrible "relationship talk" but rather something sort of fun to learn about each other! 

Here is the personality test--when you've both completed this test come back on here and tell us the results and I'll tell you where you get along and where you might rub each other wrong: Personality test based on Jung - Myers-Briggs typology

Here is the Love Kindlers test--this one tells you what you need in order to feel loved: Love Kindlers

Here is the Love Extinguishers test--this one tells you the things that drain love the fastest and put out the flame: Love Extinguishers

Here is the Love Languages test--this one tells you what means "I love you" to you; after you have both finished this test, come back and tell us and I'll interpret for you : Love Language Quiz | Five Love Languages

showtime, taking these quizzes is not about "fun and games on the PC"--it is to get to know each other more intimately. It is to find out about your wife and what means love to her and give that to her. It is to share with your wife what means love to you and ask/allow her to give that to you. It is to build something NEW.


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## turnera

showtime said:


> Ok I'm having a 2x4 moment here...fill me in on these hoops I should setup, I may have set some up already, but please explain further...I mean she is being fully transparent...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, this would be MY list, as you, to her:
All your passwords to all your accounts.

You hand over your phone and computer whenever I ask for them, if I feel like checking, and you don't say a word(neither will I; I just may need to check to prove to myself that I can trust you).

You will write OM a No Contact letter that I read and I send him.

I will install a GPS in your car for at least the next 12 months.

You and I will go to counseling for at least the next 12 months and maybe up to 24 months, until I'm convinced you're sincere.

We will have the lawyer draw up a post-nup agreement so that, if you do cheat again, you agree to give up all marital assets; you leave with what you came with.

We sit down once a week and discuss any issues for the week. We agree to not raise voices or cause harm to each other in argument.

We both fill out the Love Buster and Emotional Needs questionnaires (or the ones affaircare has) and actively work to remove LBs and meet ENs.

You agree to never go anywhere with another man without first telling me.

You remove all male friends from FB, etc., unless you show them to me and I am ok with them.


If she's unwilling to do these things, then she's not sincere; after all, if she's no longer cheating, she has no reason not to. And if she's sincere in acknowledging what she did wrong, she should have no reason understanding and accepting the consequences.


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## Affaircare

Wow, are you having a cranky day turnera or is it just me? Speaking as a former, recovered disloyal, if you treated me like that I'd say "see ya." I mean, yes some of these things are non-negotiable but some are pretty harsh and almost verging on bitter--not to mention I don't see anything put in a loving or valuing or accepting or respectful way. My thoughts are in red.



> All your passwords to all your accounts.I agree--I think this is a non-negotiable with the understanding that she also has all of your passwords to your email, your facebook, your chats, your accounts and everywhere. The idea is to promote openness and honesty, and to be personally transparent to each other.
> 
> You hand over your phone and computer whenever I ask for them, if I feel like checking, and you don't say a word(neither will I; I just may need to check to prove to myself that I can trust you). Again I agree with the understanding that she is just as free to snoop through your cell phone and computer, look through your history, and check up on you. See above--the idea is to promote openness -and- to demonstrate it by example.
> 
> You will write OM a No Contact letter that I read and I send him. I agree--this shouldn't be a love letter and fate is keeping them apart.
> 
> I will install a GPS in your car for at least the next 12 months. I would personally have some issue with this but would live with it if a GPS were also installed on my spouse's car, making it so that we can both see where the other goes.
> 
> You and I will go to counseling for at least the next 12 months and maybe up to 24 months, until I'm convinced you're sincere. I somewhat disagree with this only because some people obviously and sincerely "get it" faster and some slower. Thus if they are clearly working on things and getting closer and the marriage is recovering, why be forced to do a year or two of counseling? I would suggest maybe something more like "You and I will go to individual and marital counseling until we mutually agree that it's sincere, and that may be a year or more."
> 
> We will have the lawyer draw up a post-nup agreement so that, if you do cheat again, you agree to give up all marital assets; you leave with what you came with. Honestly? I think this is over the top and definitely shows enormous bitterness. I would only agree to this if we also had a post-nup agreement so that if my spouse ever become comfortable and neglect emotional needs and begin love busters again, then he agrees to give up all marital assets and leave with what he came with. My point here is that whilst an affair is not a moral choice, marriage is a contract, and affairs don't occur in a vacuum. Thus I'd suggest either forgetting the post-nup or agreeing that BOTH of you will leave the marriage penniless if either one chooses to just get lazy and quit meeting needs or gets abusive and starts doing extinguishers.
> 
> We sit down once a week and discuss any issues for the week. We agree to not raise voices or cause harm to each other in argument. Oh yeah--in fact, if you remember I suggest "one or two questions a day" so that the loyal spouse can ask what's bugging them, and the disloyal knows it won't be the Spanish Inquisition! So I'd suggest one meeting a week (like date night) and probably a small "touch base" every day at least!
> 
> We both fill out the Love Buster and Emotional Needs questionnaires (or the ones affaircare has) and actively work to remove LBs and meet ENs. Yeah this one is right on! :smthumbup:
> 
> You agree to never go anywhere with another man without first telling me. I would say both spouses agree to not go out with members of the opposite sex without first talking together and agreeing beforehand--no calling "I'm on the way out to happy hour with XXX, okay?" because that's not mutual agreement where both partners enthusiastically agree to it.
> 
> You remove all male friends from FB, etc., unless you show them to me and I am ok with them. Again...sure assuming he would remove all female friends on facebook.  Honestly it's not the GENDER of the friends that's the issue. It's the lack of transparency and not devoted all affection and loyalty to the spouse. So you could force your spouse to have no opposite sex FB friends but that wouldn't fix the marriage. Know what I mean?
> 
> 
> If she's unwilling to do these things, then she's not sincere; after all, if she's no longer cheating, she has no reason not to. And if she's sincere in acknowledging what she did wrong, she should have no reason understanding and accepting the consequences.


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## Affaircare

Here's where I see most of the issue: 



> If she's unwilling to do these things, then she's not sincere; after all, if she's no longer cheating, she has no reason not to. And if she's sincere in acknowledging what she did wrong, she should have no reason understanding and accepting the consequences.


It is my personal opinion that you can not control your spouse or "make" them rebuild the marriage or "make" them accept consequences, and attempting to do that is an exercise in futility. The only person in your marriage that you have ANY control over, showtime, is YOU. 

Thus I suggest that you concentrate on the quizzes like I suggested, concentrate on finding out what things were missing and hurting her before the affair (when she was vulnerable), and concentrate on not becoming complacent yourself. Work on YOU--because you can change you. 

Then if you really need to/want to--you can do a W-T-F-S statement to her if you need to request something. (note: it is a respectful request, not a demand or attempt to control). 

WHEN YOU say I'm your world and you love me but then do not treat me with affection...

I THINK it's a mixed message and wonder if you really mean it why you don't behave affectionately...

I FEEL confused, scared you don't really love me, and sort of insecure because I'm afraid this is all an act...

SO I WOULD LIKE TO REQUEST that if you really do love me and feel like I'm your world and you're grateful, that you would actually try to do some little romantic, affectionate things back to me--like would you rub my neck right now?

See how this identifies the thing that is "not okay" with you, it tells her right out loud what you think and how you feel, and it makes a request that she is free to say "yes" or "no" or "that won't work but this will." She's not being controlled but you are speaking right up for yourself, your needs and asking for what you'd like.


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## turnera

Sorry, you know I don't spend the time coating my posts with niceness, just the facts; let him fill in how he deals with her and makes it nice. He asked for hoops, I listed the kinds of hoops I would require to feel safe with my spouse again, after he cheated. 

*shrug*

Each of us is different. Some are just thankful their WS doesn't leave them, and leave it at that. Others can barely stand to look at their WS and WILL require such things to be able to stay married. 

Of course it has to go both ways; but that's not what he asked. He asked what hoops. He can add the 'I'll be doing the same thing from my side' as he brings it up, if he so chooses to have this discussion. 

The 'mutually agree' to counseling thing...honestly, I'm not so sure the WS should have that much say in it. Their current level of honesty/integrity is in question, at least for now, and my first thought is they'd take that leeway and run with it. "We've gone to 3 sessions now. I BELIEVE I am healed. I will no longer go." Where do you get to the mutually agree, when the WS doesn't want to go in the first place? IMO, the benefit of counseling is that, if the WS goes long enough, some of what the counselor says may start to sink in.

The postnup I don't typically advise unless the WS is really out there and a serial cheater, but he asked what *I* would ask for. 

And the FB, monitoring, etc., I believe is something that the BS is due...until he no longer needs it. Now, if he becomes compulsive about it and drags her through the mud, she should just say 'no more' and go from there. But when a WS first comes back...shoot yeah I would call for no males on your FB page until I feel safe again.

Of course, all the while, the two of them had _better_ be working on repairing their marriage. Or this is all moot.


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## showtime

Ok a little update for everyone, since i know you want to know what has been going on with us. 

So we are getting along well, and things are getting better everyday. I think in the first few weeks my W and I were trying to figure out how to fix everything right now. And neither of us were getting what we wanted and were both worried that one of us was gonna call it a day and go our seperate ways, even though in both our eyes that wasn't going to happen even if we didn't trust or see it that way, if that makes sense. So fastforward to now and my W is being more affectionate than ever, and I feel so good about that. And she is getting a better husband than ever that is very supportive and will stand by her no matter what. Yes I am still very hurt about what happened, the pain or sting has gotten easier to deal with even though it is still there. I haven't brought anything up about what happened for about two weeks now, and I can tell my W really appreciates that. Maybe because she wants to forget about that part of our lives and focus on the future. Which is just fine with me. For some reason I felt like i wasn't getting the answers I wanted and probably never will. And I asked the good doctor about this and what I should do, and he said that there is nothing I can do about that. So since then I have just let it go. So we are working on us and are moving along nicely. And we are going on vacation here in less than two weeks. So that should be a nice getaway to help recover.


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## Amplexor

Great to hear, keep moving forward and never forget the lessons you've learned from this. Thanks for the update.


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## Affaircare

That picture pretty much says it all.


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## losinglove

Thanks Showtime!!!! keep up the good work!!!


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## MrQuatto

Showtime, I have been a lurker in these forums for quite a while now but had to join and just say that I am very happy things are starting, and I emphasize starting, to show improvement. I have followed your thread for a considerable amount of time and am happy to see things getting better for you.

Enjoy 

Q~


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## MyDog8em

showtime said:


> So we are getting along well, and things are getting better everyday.


:smthumbup: :smthumbup: :smthumbup:


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## OhGeesh

turnera said:


> Well, this would be MY list, as you, to her:
> All your passwords to all your accounts.
> 
> You hand over your phone and computer whenever I ask for them, if I feel like checking, and you don't say a word(neither will I; I just may need to check to prove to myself that I can trust you).
> 
> You will write OM a No Contact letter that I read and I send him.
> 
> I will install a GPS in your car for at least the next 12 months.
> 
> You and I will go to counseling for at least the next 12 months and maybe up to 24 months, until I'm convinced you're sincere.
> 
> We will have the lawyer draw up a post-nup agreement so that, if you do cheat again, you agree to give up all marital assets; you leave with what you came with.
> 
> We sit down once a week and discuss any issues for the week. We agree to not raise voices or cause harm to each other in argument.
> 
> We both fill out the Love Buster and Emotional Needs questionnaires (or the ones affaircare has) and actively work to remove LBs and meet ENs.
> 
> You agree to never go anywhere with another man without first telling me.
> 
> You remove all male friends from FB, etc., unless you show them to me and I am ok with them.
> 
> 
> If she's unwilling to do these things, then she's not sincere; after all, if she's no longer cheating, she has no reason not to. And if she's sincere in acknowledging what she did wrong, she should have no reason understanding and accepting the consequences.


Sounds pretty good, but I don't know how many would really go for that. I know I couldn't handle the micromanaging regardless of cause.

Good luck Showtime glad it's moving forward!!


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## Robrobb

Showtime-

First, you are my hero.

I've got to say that I've spent about four evenings just reading through this entire thread. I've absorbed the advice from everyone contributing to this thread, processed at least some of it, and have begun to apply it to my own marriage, and I'm feeling the difference already. I still hurt, but I feel like I'm taking responsibility for my marriage and acting in the right ways to draw my wife from her EA to back to us. It's late now, but I have a thread around here somewhere that I'll update tomorrow with more.


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## cheated

I found these articles about emotional cheating helpful.


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## showtime

Another update...Things are going well for us. I still struggle with a couple things though. Sometimes I fell like my W doesn't really care what I want or if I am even happy. It seems like I am trying to do everything possible to repair our marriage and show her how much I care, and my W barely shows that she cares about me, and when I ask her what the deal is, she says she loves me and we were meant to be together and all that jive. But when I try to show a little romance and give her a nice kiss she just pushes me away and acts weird about it. And when she does that I fell rejected so bad. And I have talk to her about all of this and she isn't doing anything to help the situation. I just don't feel good or happy about where we are at. I am trying to be patient. And she told me the affair wasn't about sex, it just turned into that. But I just don't understand how to get through to my W sometimes. I just feel a little frustrated aT times and feel like I have to sit back and hope she comes around. Just needed to vent a little, that's all. Any suggestions or comments would be appreciated! Thank you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wisp

You need patience, a lot of it. Your wife was in an EA and a PA with this guy. I have read stories of some woman still recovering after a year or so.. 

It can take a long time for a wife to recover her feelings fully for you, hence her comment “And she told me the affair wasn't about sex”.

This is an emotional bond, read and research what you can to be a good husband.

Have you been to a counsellor, if not go together. She needs to be able to talk to you and bring up all the issues she has, and learn how to fill up your love bank and you hers. I am certain whatever the issues are you can deal with them.

You did extremely well to get where you are now..


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## showtime

Thanks Wisp, yeah we are going to counceling and it is helping us to understand each other, but it just seems to me that my W isn't trying to fill my love bank. And my W also says she is over it and the guy was a snake. So I don't know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wisp

I see a lot of references to a book His Needs, Her Needs by Willard F. Harley Jr ...try if you have not already, both of you need to read it.


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## showtime

Hey everyone, we are still doing well. I do however have some of my own issues with the "new normal" it seems like we are in. For some reason it feels mostly the same as it did before all of this. But I have issues with the sex. I have explained to my W how I feel, and the issue for me is that I get the feeling she isn't attracted to me or even care that I have needs to, and that she was doing it with someone else and barely wants to with me. My W says that that's just how it goes and in every relationship the sex goes down. I tried to explain to her that I didn't agree with that and that is where my problem is. Most all the time she just acts like she could care less either way if I hold her or try to kiss her and stuff like that, even if I am not trying to be intimate with her and just show some affection she puts off the vibe like she doesn't care if I do those things or not. Cause when I don't do those things for a few days she doesn't say anything about me not being affectionate. I have tried to explain my feelings and how I feel rejected and that I feel like she doesn't care about me at all and that I feel like crap inside. And she tells me she is attracted to me and she loves me and Tom was a snake and a liar and didn't mean anything. But I just don't understand how she could do so many things with somebody she thought she loved and realized he was a loser. And now she realizes what she was throwing away and she loves me so much and the last thing she wants is for us to not be together, but she doesn't treat me like she cares about me at all. We have been going to counceling and I have explained my feelings to her. And after we talk she does really good, but then a week or so after she returns to a distant W that I feel like she doesn't care... I don't know what to do here, I hate this feeling of not being loved and feeling rejected, and on the outside looking in at her cheating on me and what appears that she loved that guy 10 times more than she could ever love me. I'm struggling here everyday and it keeps me up at night and I wake up before the alarm every morning playing tug of war with my thoughts that she doesn't care about me. Maybe I got it all wrong, I don't know, but I lose a lot of sleep over this and it just plain sucks. Meanwhile she sleeps like a baby. I need help....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## showtime

Anyone?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

I think you need to change things. Start new hobbies together. Take some day trips. Get the book 52 Invitations for Grrreat Sex and try some out. 

She had a brief look at excitement, and now she's back to the same ol' same ol' and it doesn't do anything for her. Plus, the constant whining (sorry) about what you're not getting is a HUGE turnoff and insult; the more you do it, the more she doesn't want to please you. Communication is great, but you already told her; back off for a bit.

I also think you need to get a bit more of a life of your own. She needs to see that she is NOT all you think about, that you CAN do without her. Join a bowling league or flag football team or something.

Did you do the Love Buster and Emotional Needs questionnaires or Affaircare's versions?


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## showtime

Thanks Turnera, and yeah we did the qeustionares together. It just feels like we are getting back to the same old song and dance, and it frightens me a bit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## showtime

Also, we have taken several day trips, date nights without the kids, and things like that, but she just seems so closed off to me. I don't like it, I feel rejected, and then eventually I won't try anything for fear of rejection.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Initfortheduration

Totally understand where you are coming from. My wife can be like that too. You know what its called contentment. But we see it at complacency. Though my wife hasn't cheated (can't imagine what that would do to me). She is just wrapped up in everything else. I don't think anything can change them short of just not being there one day. As soon as their secure little world is up ended and their security is gone, they would gain a new perspective. One of the truest statements I have ever heard is this. "A woman wants nothing more then to change everything about her husband and a husband never wants his wife to change (from when we first met them ie passion, attention, focus)" They end up changing us and they become complacent. 

Its like they need a project to keep interested. And we're the project.


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## turnera

The reason I suggest new things is so you two can develop NEW memories together and new things to look forward to, so she starts looking forward to being with you because being with you means happy stuff for her.


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## showtime

Yeah its funny duration, because she is so happy that I am changing for her and us, but when I ask her to do something a little different or get out of her normal bubble she gets all emotional and says that I don't really want "her". I mean its comfortable for her, she seems content and that's good to a point, but she isn't heart broken and freaked out over what happened. And Turnera we have made lots of new memories together and when she talks about everyday things, things that hurt a little don't even seem to phase her, its like she has completely forgotten about it. I don't know, I lose a lot of sleep when she shoots me down, or says she is going to do something and doesn't follow through. Example, we got her a nice piece of lingerie the other day on one of our trips, and the next day she had a big plan to do all these chores and put the kids to bed early, I thought this was cool so I busted ass gettin everything done so we could spend some time together, well by the time the kids were in bed she was all tired and didn't even say anything about maybe another time or nothing. Kinda frustrating for me, but I just let it go hoping she would suprise me one of these nights and I would feel special, but she never does anything like that and it kinda bothers me because I do nice things for her quite often, like full body massages without expecting a thing afterwards. And I even plan on giving her a good massage tonite without telling her, you know a suprise which she loves, I just wish she would do those things for me to let me know she is thinking about me too. So whatever, I know this is all over the place, but so am I right now...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Some people don't naturally be like that; I know I don't. I HATE being demonstrative. But I try to do it because I know it means something to him. 

It seems like the one thing you are missing is an acknowledgment from her that she 'owes' you enough caring about you that she puts herself out there at least once in awhile so as to please YOU, since you are doing the same. And your acknowledgment that you will not stay married to someone who is unwilling to do so.

That conversation might best be held in front of a counselor.


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## showtime

Hi everyone, things are good for the most part. We still struggle with the affair, I am still heartbroken but it is getting easier. We communicate better and work through issues easier and I think we both feel better knowing we talked things out. There was a chance encounter with the OM at a local resteraunt. My W and I were going to meet for lunch and she was there before I was , so she got us a table and waited for me to arrive, meanwhile some of our married friends were there having lunch so my W was talking to them while she was waiting for me and the OM walked in. So my W texted me and told me not to come in, in a panic she thought I would do something stupid, well i was still five minutes away so I texted back why and then she called me, she left really fast when he wasn't looking and called me on the way out and we met at a different resteraunt. My W was all in a panic for some reason, I just stayed calm and tried to comfort her and we had a nice lunch. It did bring back some bad memories for me and I didn't really know how to take her being so panicie? regardless we are still together, and there is talk of having another baby. So thanks for listening!


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## mypumpkins

There are all kinds of books, magazines and help on fixing a car, managing money and all the latest fashions, yet very little USEFUL information on how to fix a broken relationship…. Manage your emotions or getting the love of your life back? You must read The magic of making up Its definitely worth it. Even if you don’t want to get your ex back this book opened my eyes to so many things pertaining to relationships.


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## turnera

Good report, showtime! Overall I think the panic was a good thing. You're doing great.


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## Affaircare

Showtime!  :smthumbup: 

First, it's good to hear from you and hear a generally good report! It sounds like you and your wife are working through this well and doing a good job rebuilding. It makes sense to me that you're still heartbroken at times, because it takes time to build something new, but it sounds like you're building and that's encouraging. 

Second, regarding the panic I believe I can explain that with one hand tied behind my back. When you're the disloyal, getting past the "affair-zing" is pretty hard. To do so, you have to pretty much go through withdrawal somewhat similar to what a drug addict goes through. So your wife made the choice and stuck with it, and she was able to get through the withdrawal--now you two are doing pretty well. She saw that the best boundary she could set for herself is NO MORE OM PERIOD--EVER!! However, seeing the OM at the restaurant brought up two HUGE things: 

1) OH SH!T will this hurt Showtime or what? Will he blame me? Will he be mad? Will we fight? Will this mess things up? Will he do something to embarrass or hurt me? I don't want to ruin things!

2) I wasn't prepared to handle this! I don't have a boundary set up in case I DO see OM so I don't know what to do! What do I do? I know...I'll run away! 

So all-in-all I think she handled it medium well. She was honest. She did not engage or contact. She focused on YOU not him. She tried to protect you. She acted to protect her. She didn't try to hide it. And when she wasn't positive what to do, she turned toward you not away from you. Shows a LOT of progress, doesn't it? 

I would suggest that you two have a talk one day when it's not an issue and calm, and just reach a mutual united understanding how to handle it if you do accidentally cross paths with the OM. The fact of the matter is that on extremely rare occasions you may accidentally see him around town--when you're together or when you're apart. So talk about it now and reach an agreement. Let her talk and make a request, and respectfully make a request how you'd like her to handle it. Okay? Now you have a good topic and you can set a boundary around your marriage about it.


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## OneMarriedGuy

Hi Showtime,

Funny I see this hasn't been active fro quite some time but I was just sent a link that somebody just commented on it. I haven't been in forever but came back to see if you were still part of a success story. I hope so.

Best

Mark


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