# Does the length of the affair matter to you?



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Some affairs go on for years - do you think the length of the affair effects the BS's ability to forgive? Please share your thoughts....


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Some affairs go on for years - do you think the length of the affair effects the BS's ability to forgive? Please share your thoughts....


My ex told me about his EA after being involved for about a month. But when he told me--I mean, the MOMENTS FOLLOWING HIM TELLING ME--I quickly had 'flashbacks' of him telling me that he cheated on his wife (while she had cancer), as well as a bunch of other things that I forgave him for (drunk angry outbursts, etc.). 

To me, it wouldn't have matter if he had a ONS or an LTA. In both cases, the WS _ALWAYS_ has a chance to STOP it before going any further. 

The WS and the AP chose 'wrongly'...

Vega


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Vega said:


> My ex told me about his EA after being involved for about a month. But when he told me--I mean, the MOMENTS FOLLOWING HIM TELLING ME--I quickly had 'flashbacks' of him telling me that he cheated on his wife (while she had cancer), as well as a bunch of other things that I forgave him for (drunk angry outbursts, etc.).
> 
> To me, it wouldn't have matter if he had a ONS or an LTA. In both cases, the WS _ALWAYS_ has a chance to STOP it before going any further.
> 
> ...


Agreed no matter what the circumstances adultery is a choice...no one forces you to resolve your marital strife by having an affair....


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

To me it's the fact that someone had the betrayal. The decision to do so. That is the critical point. The length of time is unimportant. That is ancillary.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

thatbpguy said:


> To me it's the fact that someone had the betrayal. The decision to do so. That is the critical point. The length of time is unimportant. That is ancillary.


Interesting - would an extra long affair like 5 or 10 years make it worse for you?


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Interesting - would an extra long affair like 5 or 10 years make it worse for you?


Not a bit.

Why?

One thing that is universal about betrayers and betraying- the first time is the _hardest_ and yet most exciting thing they will ever do in their life. Like getting a first abortion. The second time is much easier but still requires some justifying to themselves. But the third time and each thereafter seems as normal as drinking water when thirsty. 

So the decision to betray is the decision that counts. Not how many times or how long.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Yep it does.

The longer the betrayal the worse.


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## jay_gatsby (Jun 4, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Yep it does.
> 
> The longer the betrayal the worse.


:iagree: I agree with Ele here. An LTA is much worse than an ONS and it is proportional to the length of time.


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## jay_gatsby (Jun 4, 2013)

thatbpguy said:


> Not a bit.
> 
> Why?
> 
> ...


BP, are you talking about multiple different A's or one LTA? I agree with you on the multiple ones, but I have to differ on the LTA. A LTA lasting many years is a different ballgame all together.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

jay_gatsby said:


> BP, are you talking about multiple different A's or one LTA? I agree with you on the multiple ones, but I have to differ on the LTA. A LTA lasting many years is a different ballgame all together.


I can appreciate the fact a long term betrayal can be more daunting for various reasons. 

My point is that the _decision_ to betray is more damning than the length of the betrayal.


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## havenrose33 (Aug 7, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Some affairs go on for years - do you think the length of the affair effects the BS's ability to forgive? Please share your thoughts....


A very long term affair would be harder for me to deal with, I think maybe the added time, could possibly mean more emotional attachment. My husbands first affair lasted about 7 months, before he confessed. His second affair lasted about 3 months. Both started out as *friends*. One of the reasons that I don't think it is a good idea for male/female friends. For some...it becomes way to easy to cross that line...


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

The things I struggle with:

Five year affair, you know they were very close. You know they spent tons of time together, even if it was just a few hours here and there. They worked together, so for five years, they were seeing each other every day.. her even stopping at his apartment on the way to work some mornings and a love nest for weekends.

He had more intimacy with my wife than I did, for half a decade.. So I have to deal with the fact that she didn't just make a bad choice, ONS and then move on.. I have to deal with the fact that she abused and manipulated me, to run to another man, for half a decade.

You have to deal with that they were together for more than a handful of anniversary's, birthdays, holiday's.. they exchanged gifts, probably had special dinners... 

On the flip side of the coin:
The A went on long enough that KISA lost his shine, and eventually she started to notice the scum tooth and warts.. so it was at the 'habit' phase, and no longer in romance phase.. This made it a bit easier to show her the gaslighting and blameshifting she was using to justify it.. so the fog had already started to lift.

Yes, it matters.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Some affairs go on for years - do you think the length of the affair effects the BS's ability to forgive? Please share your thoughts....


Absolutely. I have said that I might be able to forgive a ONS under certain circumstances but a long term physical affair (and I define long term as more than one sexual encounter) is unforgivable to me. Doing it more than once is an intentional act to hurt the BS. Anything else said is a lie.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

The Middleman said:


> Absolutely. I have said that I might be able to forgive a ONS under certain circumstances but a long term physical affair (and I define long term as more than one sexual encounter) is unforgivable to me. Doing it more than once is an intentional act to hurt the BS. Anything else said is a lie.


I see it more as a selfish act, without concern for the BS or anyone else.. it's more about excuses for why it's okay and how it makes THEM feel good, not about making the BS feel bad.. They think things like "I deserve to be happy.. I deserve this.. My BS doesn't really love me anyway, but this guy does, because he bought me a coffee and told me nice things.. made me feel special..."


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Yep it does.
> 
> The longer the betrayal the worse.


Yeah this would seem to make the most sense to me. A LTA is a repeated betrayal over many years. That means countless lies, physical encounters and a certain level of intimacy shared with someone other than your spouse. I find it hard to believe a WS in a LTA who then downplays the sex or the feelings involved - something had to keep them coming back year after year.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

However long the affair was or whatever happen matters because of the pain it caused.

However it does not matter because what ever went down when the BS finds out, the affair could of been longer or what went down could of been worse.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Yeah this would seem to make the most sense to me. A LTA is a repeated betrayal over many years. That means countless lies, physical encounters and a certain level of intimacy shared with someone other than your spouse. I find it hard to believe a WS in a LTA who then downplays the sex or the feelings involved - something had to keep them coming back year after year.


If they downplay the sex or feelings, they are lying..


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

russell28 said:


> If they downplay the sex or feelings, they are lying..


:iagree: I've read that on a thread where the WS had I believe had a mult-year affair and after discovery said the sex was just so so and there were no feelings involved ever ...rang hollow to me...


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

russell28 said:


> I see it more as a selfish act, without concern for the BS or anyone else.. it's more about excuses for why it's okay and how it makes THEM feel good, not about making the BS feel bad.. They think things like "I deserve to be happy.. I deserve this.. My BS doesn't really love me anyway, but this guy does, because he bought me a coffee and told me nice things.. made me feel special..."


All this is true so there is no argument. I'll only ad one factor that puts it all into the category of intentional hurt. The WS knows that the physical affair will hurt the BS immeasurably when it's discovered .... and they ALL know this, but continue anyway. Now they may continue for all the reasons you point to above, but they still do it and therefore continue to inflict intentional damage to the BS. This is why (amongst a few reasons) I could never forgive a physical affair with multiple sexual encounters. Once maybe could be a mistake ... maybe. Multiple times is intentional. I'm sorry, but anything else is a just a lie. I'm just not big on forgiveness under these circumstances and I think remorse is way over rated.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

russell28 said:


> I see it more as a selfish act, without concern for the BS or anyone else.. it's more about excuses for why it's okay and how it makes THEM feel good, not about making the BS feel bad.. *They think things like "I deserve to be happy.. I deserve this.. My BS doesn't really love me anyway, but this guy does, because he bought me a coffee and told me nice things.. made me feel special..."*


It is amazing how WSs will rationlize their affairs...simply amazing....:scratchhead:


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

The Middleman said:


> All this is true so there is no argument. I'll only ad one factor that puts it all into the category of intentional hurt. The WS knows that the physical affair will hurt the BS immeasurably* when it's discovered .... and they ALL know this, but continue anyway.* Now they may continue for all the reasons you point to above, but they still do it and therefore continue to inflict intentional damage to the BS. This is why (amongst a few reasons) I could never forgive a physical affair with multiple sexual encounters. Once maybe could be a mistake ... maybe. Multiple times is intentional. I'm sorry, but anything else is a just a lie. I'm just not big on forgiveness under these circumstances and I think remorse is way over rated.


I disagree.. I think they believe they can pull this off for ever, without anyone ever finding out. They think they are so clever, you'll just know your life is better now that you have a happier spouse, but you'll never find out why, so it won't hurt you. Everyone wins. It's all about rationalizing things that are bad for you..


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

russell28 said:


> I disagree.. I think they believe they can pull this off for ever, without anyone ever finding out. They think they are so clever, you'll just know your life is better now that you have a happier spouse, but you'll never find out why, so it won't hurt you. Everyone wins. It's all about rationalizing things that are bad for you..


Absolutely - and then when they are caught - even some who R - many blame shift to continue their rationalization....


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I might be able to forgive a ONS, depending on the circumstances. If there is _any _repeat (whether it's once more, or thousands more), then _intention _ and conscious, cold betrayal is clearly involved. A ONS can be a momentary weakness that usually does not involve intention.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> I might be able to forgive a ONS, depending on the circumstances. If there is _any _repeat (whether it's once more, or thousands more), then _intention _ and conscious, cold betrayal is clearly involved. A ONS can be a momentary weakness that usually does not involve intention.


:iagree: Then the uncomfortable question is - what kept the WS going back to their lover?


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> :iagree: I've read that on a thread where the WS had I believe had a mult-year affair and after discovery said the sex was just so so and there were no feelings involved ever ...rang hollow to me...


It usually starts with feelings.. and sex is never so-so, because it's sex.. sex if fun and pretty much always feels good. This is like a fat guy telling you the big mac doesn't taste good and he didn't even want to eat it.. he just gets one every day.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

russell28 said:


> It usually starts with feelings.. and sex is never so-so, because it's sex.. sex if fun and pretty much always feels good. *This is like a fat guy telling you the big mac doesn't taste good and he didn't even want to eat it.. he just gets one every day.*


:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Plus the added eroticism of it being an affair adds to the sexual excitement...people find illicit sex intoxicating...


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> :rofl::rofl::rofl:
> 
> Plus the added eroticism of it being an affair adds to the sexual excitement...people find illicit sex intoxicating...


Exactly.. it's not just sex, it's forbidden sex.. nasty and wrong. I'd be thinking STD and run like hell.. the cheater is thinking lust and passion...


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

russell28 said:


> I disagree.. I think they believe they can pull this off for ever, without anyone ever finding out. They think they are so clever, you'll just know your life is better now that you have a happier spouse, but you'll never find out why, so it won't hurt you. Everyone wins. It's all about rationalizing things that are bad for you..


Let's just agree to disagree. Your cutting the WS way to much slack.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

russell28 said:


> I disagree.. I think they believe they can pull this off for ever, without anyone ever finding out. They think they are so clever, you'll just know your life is better now that you have a happier spouse, but you'll never find out why, so it won't hurt you. Everyone wins. It's all about rationalizing things that are bad for you..


This... mine had completely deluded herself into thinking I would never find out. Except she wasn't a happier spouse around me. She was happy around the OM. Around me she was cold and detached. That's what made me so suspicious. For her as long as I never knew about it, cause I don't think she wanted me to ever find out, then it was perfectly ok to get her selfish needs filled.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

*NOT THIS*


The Middleman said:


> Absolutely. I have said that I might be able to forgive a ONS under certain circumstances but a long term physical affair (and I define long term as more than one sexual encounter) is unforgivable to me. *Doing it more than once is an intentional act to hurt the BS. Anything else said is a lie.*


No, it is not a lie. If this were true then most WS's would not go to the great lengths they do to keep their BS's from finding out about their affair. Since you have never been a WS, you are clearly not in a position to speak for them. You certainly do not speak for me.

*THIS:*


russell28 said:


> I see it more as a selfish act, without concern for the BS or anyone else.. *it's more about* excuses for why it's okay and *how it makes THEM feel good, not about making the BS feel bad.. They think things like "I deserve to be happy.. I deserve this.. My BS doesn't really love me anyway*, but this guy does, because he bought me a coffee and told me nice things.. made me feel special..."


Exactly. Never once was it my intention to hurt my BS. By the time my EA/PA began, I was so disengaged from my husband that I wasn't thinking about him, at all, much less thinking about hurting him. I felt that I was doing it *for* me, not *to* him. Our marriage had already been hurtful enough for both of us. I was simply trying to find some measure of happiness for myself. My anger towards my husband had peaked during the several year period prior to my EA/PA when I was trying desperately to save my marriage with a (then) uncooperative/unwilling and/or unable spouse. I would say that the strongest negative emotion that I felt towards my husband just prior to and during my "A" would best be described as "apathy." Apathy doesn't desire to hurt..... it no longer cares. Of course, I can only share my emotions and thoughts. I can't speak to the specifics on behalf of any other WS. But, I do believe that most, if not all, WS's would agree that having an affair is something they feel they are doing for themselves and not to their BS's. It isn't about their BS. It's about their self. That's why affairs are always SELFISH.

As a reconciling FWS, 15 months past D-Day, I see things much differently, in hindsight, than I saw them while in the midst of the "A."


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

BetrayedDad said:


> This... mine had completely deluded herself into thinking I would never find out. Except she wasn't a happier spouse around me. She was happy around the OM. Around me she was cold and detached. That's what made me so suspicious. For her as long as I never knew about it, cause I don't think she wanted me to ever find out, then it was perfectly ok to get her selfish needs filled.


So is this OK? Should it be forgiven? I think not.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

EI said:


> *NOT THIS*
> 
> No, it is not a lie. If this were true then most WS's would not go to the great lengths they do to keep their BS's from finding out about their affair. Since you have never been a WS, you are clearly not in a position to speak for them. You certainly do not speak for me.
> 
> ...


I'd have to agree..given my excperience the person who cheats is so caught up in their OWN world - other people are not even on their radar screen...that is why affairs do so much damage - the person who cheats acts with utter disregard for those around them - they are not striking out at the BS per se....its more akin to drunk driving....


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## StarGazer101 (Jan 26, 2013)

Yes it matters - _every single day_ it continued; my right to choose, and the life I might have had with a spouse who loved and cared for *me* was being stolen from me.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

StarGazer101 said:


> Yes it matters - _every single day_ it continued; my right to choose, and the life I might have had with a spouse who loved and cared for *me* was being stolen from me.


:iagree: Also the amount of time spent lying and covering up - that is really hard to swallow..the longer the affair the greater the lies, deceit and betrayal....


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Long term is worse as it involves longer periods of deception and depravity. That being said, a ONS is as much a deal breaker for me than a LTR or multiple affairs.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Healer said:


> Long term is worse as it involves longer periods of deception and depravity. That being said, a ONS is as much a deal breaker for me than a LTR or multiple affairs.


As TAM has shown every BS has different limits - for some if their spouse has a ONS they are out of there and for others their spouse could have been in an affair for years and they stay together - I'll admit to not understanding everyone's motivations but if they are comfortable with it then that is their choice...


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> As TAM has shown every BS has different limits - for some if their spouse has a ONS they are out of there and for others their spouse could have been in an affair for years and they stay together - I'll admit to not understanding everyone's motivations but if they are comfortable with it then that is their choice...


Certainly - it's their life.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

I would like to pose another question - does the intensity of the affair with one person (a series of meaningless ONSs versus a LTA with one person) effect your ability to move on? If you suspect there were real feelings and intimacy..how did the effect your view?


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## wranglerman (May 12, 2013)

I care not for the length or duration of any A the defining difference for me is more along the lines of EA or PA!

EAs I seem to find more tolerance for, PAs forget it, now a drunk ONS that was admitted the next day is a discussion point but more 70/30 on the way out the door.

If a PA lasted say one month and they hooked up two or more times then time to bail, the lies, deceit and emotional detachment needed to be able to hook up with another guy/girl means you are toast to them, pukker up butter cup you are about to get kicked in the kisser.

An EA is something with potential to be salvaged with R as there are essentially emotional needs not being met within the relationship and the chances are that intensive counseling might bring things back to stable after initial hurt period etc, once you both have begun to understand one anothers needs through the counseling sessions then you could be on a road home or if the needs are incomprehensible to either party then a lawyer it will be, but this really needs both parties to be honest and open with themselves as much as their SOs! Shame many WS are as addicted to lying as they are to cheating


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

LTPA’s, or in my case also a general long period of time spanning years of adulterous actions, are a nasty beast to deal with...

So, I don’t have to just forgive her for her adultery and “that weekend”. I have to forgive her for accepting those diamond earrings, those vacations, the new house I didn’t want or need, every single holiday we celebrated together (and unknowingly with outside parties), a sexless marriage using invalid excuses, and on and on and on. 

The worst part is forgiving yourself. So many memories of ‘doing this and that’ trying like hell to make this marriage work and trying to show them how much you love and care (and hoping for it in return). It is damn hard not to feel like a complete idiot and so f’n stupid and gullible when you finally get the truth. 

It ruins you and your perceptions of “marriage”. No other way to put it. Whatever you once believed it took to make a marriage work is now shattered as far as it’s concerned with this person. Example after example can be recalled and counter-pointed with a factual event. An exotic vacation might spice up the marriage; Nope, she f’d the OM when we got home as well as the “I missed you and wish you were there” correspondence. Expensive gifts will show her how much you care; She wore them on their date. Every holiday. All that trying to romance her for sex (something I wasn’t getting even with the effort) and she gives it up for him with just a “come over” text. Lie after lie told to you. And the whole f’n time, for years, you were trying like hell to do the stuff people say you need to do in a marriage. That plan & advice didn’t work with your damaged monkey. 

So it makes it hard on the WS too should you R. Why? Because a BS changes their entire perception. They must just to continue forward with the relationship.... In a sick sort of way, part of why she is still with me is she wants to stay in that 'victim mode'. I am not an easy BS to deal with.



Truthseeker1 said:


> I would like to pose another question - does the intensity of the affair with one person (a series of meaningless ONSs versus a LTA with one person) effect your ability to move on? If you suspect there were real feelings and intimacy..how did the effect your view?


Been there... Seen both sides of that demon in my wife. It’s why I stay focused on me and my perceptions. She’s seriously jacked up in her perceptions; “It’s just sex” (for the ONS), “We’re just friends and he gets me” (for the EA’s)... and both for the LTPA. At least for my wife, sex seemed to be a “reward/punishment system” for them as well as me. So my ability to move forward was to really begin to understand how she approaches life and figure out her “operations manual”... nothing like her words which mimic what she wants to believe versus how she really works. 

It takes a lot to be able to break it down with them by pointing out the massive inconsistencies in their actions that aren’t matching the words and thoughts they have.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Some affairs go on for years - do you think the length of the affair effects the BS's ability to forgive? Please share your thoughts....


Time matters. It matters as to how someone is able to get out of their cheating ways. If they had an incident after a slip up, and saw the white ghost of losing their relationship - and come home instantly thats one thing.

Years of lying and deception, minimizing the other spouse, hiding, sneaking, etc.... That doesn't undo itself at "i'm sorry".


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

treyvion said:


> *Time matters. * It matters as to how someone is able to get out of their cheating ways. If they had an incident after a slip up, and saw the white ghost of losing their relationship - and come home instantly thats one thing.
> 
> Years of lying and deception, minimizing the other spouse, hiding, sneaking, etc.... That doesn't undo itself at "i'm sorry".


This made me think of something else..the wasted time the WS foists upon the BS..they spend precious time engaged in an affair and wasting the faithful spouse's precious time- so WSs are also time thieves....


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> This made me think of something else..the wasted time the WS foists upon the BS..they spend precious time engaged in an affair and wasting the faithful spouse's precious time- so WSs are also time thieves....


They stole time, and they also got the white hot attention of being at their BS's highest level of attention and love, and used it with their OM/OW.

The loss of time, degredation of self respect, self image, happens bit by bit, until it's drained. It takes time. Thus a true recovery, the WS would have to have the near death experience or whatever out in the world, come home 100% re-committed, and also make up for the wrongs they have done.

It's not easy, and almost no one does it right, because if they did it would be alot of pain and shame until they recovered the relationship.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

Here is another question: Did BS's trust to much pre-affair and while the affair was ongoing? Should there be a little more skepticism in a relationship?


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

treyvion said:


> They stole time, and they also got the white hot attention of being at their BS's highest level of attention and love, and used it with their OM/OW.
> 
> The loss of time, degredation of self respect, self image, happens bit by bit, until it's drained. It takes time. Thus a true recovery, the WS would have to have the near death experience or whatever out in the world, come home 100% re-committed, and also make up for the wrongs they have done.
> 
> It's not easy, and almost no one does it right, because if they did it would be alot of pain and shame until they recovered the relationship.


You hit the nail right on the head with this. :iagree:


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Truthseeker1 said:


> This made me think of something else..the wasted time the WS foists upon the BS..they spend precious time engaged in an affair and wasting the faithful spouse's precious time- so WSs are also time thieves....


There is the time thing... but also there's that insanity you are kept in. I knew something was wrong, suspected adultery, but never found enough things concrete; just redflags. Years of it, that paranoia, etc. rotting my insides. And you are working hard, trying like hell to 'fix this' by listening to the lies of what they tell you is wrong (so you are working on the wrong stuff). Years wasted fixing non-existant problems or small issues that that magnified into massive ones.. No amount of 'helping around the house more' would have worked when the problem wasn't me being lazy, it was her needing me to be seen as lazy so she wouldn't feel guilty about spreading her legs... 

And you become dependant on them to re-assure you, tell you there's nothing going on, and comfort you. After DD, you feel stupid as hell for believing them and believing in them. This is a person you almost caught and instead of being a 'wake up call', they just learned to hide it better.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Racer said:


> There is the time thing... but also there's that insanity you are kept in. I knew something was wrong, suspected adultery, but never found enough things concrete; just redflags. Years of it, that paranoia, etc. rotting my insides. And you are working hard, trying like hell to 'fix this' by listening to the lies of what they tell you is wrong (so you are working on the wrong stuff). Years wasted fixing non-existant problems or small issues that that magnified into massive ones.. No amount of 'helping around the house more' would have worked when the problem wasn't me being lazy, it was her needing me to be seen as lazy so she wouldn't feel guilty about spreading her legs...
> 
> And you become dependant on them to re-assure you, tell you there's nothing going on, and comfort you. After DD, you feel stupid as hell for believing them and believing in them. This is a person you almost caught and instead of being a 'wake up call', they just learned to hide it better.


Can I ask - what keeps you married to your wife?


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Racer said:


> There is the time thing... but also there's that insanity you are kept in. I knew something was wrong, suspected adultery, but never found enough things concrete; just redflags. Years of it, that paranoia, etc. rotting my insides. And you are working hard, trying like hell to 'fix this' by listening to the lies of what they tell you is wrong (so you are working on the wrong stuff). Years wasted fixing non-existant problems or small issues that that magnified into massive ones.. No amount of 'helping around the house more' would have worked when the problem wasn't me being lazy, it was her needing me to be seen as lazy so she wouldn't feel guilty about spreading her legs...


I also had that image management problem, and every thing is wrong trying to fix all the percieved wrongs, which never ever ended. 



Racer said:


> And you become dependant on them to re-assure you, tell you there's nothing going on, and comfort you. After DD, you feel stupid as hell for believing them and believing in them. This is a person you almost caught and instead of being a 'wake up call', they just learned to hide it better.


Light at the end of the tunnel is a better situation for yourself.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

The Middleman said:


> Here is another question: Did BS's trust to much pre-affair and while the affair was ongoing? Should there be a little more skepticism in a relationship?


Dunno. It's probably a good human trait to have a level of self preservation and scepticism.

Do you think you should choose someone that you always have to watch behind them to make sure they aren't pulling one over on you? It would be alot more efficient if the one you are in the relationship with was actually trustworthy.


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## jay_gatsby (Jun 4, 2013)

Racer said:


> There is the time thing... but also there's that insanity you are kept in. I knew something was wrong, suspected adultery, but never found enough things concrete; just redflags. Years of it, that paranoia, etc. rotting my insides. And you are working hard, trying like hell to 'fix this' by listening to the lies of what they tell you is wrong (so you are working on the wrong stuff). Years wasted fixing non-existant problems or small issues that that magnified into massive ones.. No amount of 'helping around the house more' would have worked when the problem wasn't me being lazy, it was her needing me to be seen as lazy so she wouldn't feel guilty about spreading her legs...
> 
> And you become dependant on them to re-assure you, tell you there's nothing going on, and comfort you. After DD, you feel stupid as hell for believing them and believing in them. This is a person you almost caught and instead of being a 'wake up call', they just learned to hide it better.


I wonder if the preacher who reconciled with his wife after 12 years has a different perspective on this. I forget his name, I want to say Blu(something). It was recently brought up on a different thread.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

treyvion said:


> Dunno. It's probably a good human trait to have a level of self preservation and scepticism.
> 
> Do you think you should choose someone that you always have to watch behind them to make sure they aren't pulling one over on you? It would be alot more efficient if the one you are in the relationship with was actually trustworthy.


I'm in the accounting profession and we need to conduct ourselves with "professional skepticism" when it comes to judging our colleagues and what they do. This doesn't mean that we don't trust them, it's just that we need to see for ourselves that what they say is true (more or less). It's kind of like "trust but verify". 

I would like to think that we don't need to do this in a marriage but I've always liked to confirm that my spouse was where she said she was going to be. Not all the time, just once in a while. When something didn't seem right, I was all over it "like a fly on sh1t" and one time I was right, I caught her doing something she shouldn't have been. Thankfully I caught it early. 

This isn't the old days and trust can't be just given easly, it needs to be earned. There is too much of a sense on entitlement in our society today and I truly beilieve that this is a major reason for infidelity. I'm entitled to be happy all the time. Well guess what ........

BTW: I speak for no one other than myself. These are my (strong) opinions. Others may interpret them anyway they want.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

EI said:


> My anger towards my husband had peaked during the several year period prior to my EA/PA when I was trying desperately to save my marriage with a (then) uncooperative/unwilling and/or unable spouse.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

To me having sex with OM 100 times is 100x worse than having sex with him once.


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## checkingout (Jun 7, 2012)

Is there a difference if it was a relatively long-term EA (about 10 months)? I don't feel they ever met in person and my H says she was pushing to, but he didn't want to "take it to that level", but they still had phone sex and video sex, so it feels like a PA to me.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

russell28 said:


> It usually starts with feelings.. and sex is never so-so, because it's sex.. sex if fun and pretty much always feels good. This is like a fat guy telling you the big mac doesn't taste good and he didn't even want to eat it.. he just gets one every day.


I've heard (or the excuse/rationalization) is that it wasn't about the sex, it didn't feel good. While maybe the guilt does drift in from time to time but you put it absolutely perfectly, sex if fun pretty much always feels good. Not saying it has to be rip roaring stuff of porn star dreams but the act of getting off while doing something elicit does contribute to the thrill.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

Racer said:


> There is the time thing... but also there's that insanity you are kept in. *I knew something was wrong, suspected adultery, but never found enough things concrete; just redflags. Years of it, that paranoia, etc. rotting my insides. And you are working hard, trying like hell to 'fix this' by listening to the lies of what they tell you is wrong (so you are working on the wrong stuff). Years wasted fixing non-existant problems or small issues that that magnified into massive ones.. *No amount of 'helping around the house more' would have worked when the problem wasn't me being lazy, it was her needing me to be seen as lazy so she wouldn't feel guilty about spreading her legs...
> 
> And you become dependant on them to re-assure you, tell you there's nothing going on, and comfort you. After DD, you feel stupid as hell for believing them and believing in them. This is a person you almost caught and instead of being a 'wake up call', they just learned to hide it better.


:iagree:

I can relate to this "trying to fix" the issues and problems that I had no idea were rooted in her affairs.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

wilderness said:


> To me having sex with OM 100 times is 100x worse than having sex with him once.


He's replaced you then. In her mind, is a compartementalization where any mental, or physical affirmations are his territory. If you try to enter that region, it will make her feel angry.

It's the same when a man does it to a woman. He won't make love to his wife because he doesn't want to cheat on his misstress. He ties those strongest feelings and emotions to the OP.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I'd have to agree..given my excperience *the person who cheats is so caught up in their OWN world - other people are not even on their radar screen*...that is why affairs do so much damage -* the person who cheats acts with utter disregard for those around them* - they are not striking out at the BS per se....its more akin to drunk driving....


Again, I disagree. Yes, I was devoting some time to myself,..... (aka EA/PA) something that I had never done in my entire life, but my children, my friends, my familial obligations, etc., were all being met. I never neglected my children or spent any less time with them. Because they were grown, I found that I had more time to/for myself for the first time ever in my adult life. In addition to raising 5 children, I had also spent several years as a full-time care-giver for my parents until their deaths. I'm not sharing that in an attempt to win anyone's favor, (I'd never be that optimistic) I'm sharing it because it's a fact. Again, for the first time in my life, I had some time on my hands. I had sincerely hoped to reconnect (or simply connect with my husband.) He wasn't interested. The more effort I put into getting closer to him, the more he pulled away. During my EA/PA I continued to do everything for my husband (and family) that I had always done; I cooked, cleaned, did the laundry, shopping, kept the checkbook balanced, paid the bills on time, (obviously, with the $ he earned) kept our medical affairs in order, (it's a big job in our family) saw to our children's needs (2 of our sons had 3 surgeries that year which included months of doctor's appts and physical therapy and they were unable to drive.) There have been 3 more surgeries since, two for another son. Now, we're at 6 surgeries for 3 sons. I never missed a beat at home. 

I was one of those WS's who was "faithful" to my AP during the "A." But, I never had to come up with one single excuse for not being intimate with my husband..... He never attempted to initiate ANY type of intimacy with me the entire time. This went on for over a year. I think that he was genuinely relieved that I was no longer trying to be intimate with him. We had had several lengthy dry spells in the decade leading up to that. Some going on for several months at a time. Prior to my "A," I had asked, begged, pleaded, demanded, and finally threatened him over the obvious lack of intimacy. It wasn't just the physical intimacy, either. He didn't spend any time with me, didn't have a kind word for me, or anyone, at that point. He just hid from the world in the bedroom, at his desk, behind 3 gigantic computer monitors every evening after work and all weekend, every weekend. This wasn't his "work," either. Just his escape. We had no life, together, as husband and wife. I went to therapy, lost weight, I tried everything I could think of to get him back into the world and into our marriage. I talked to him until I was blue in the face. I finally told him that I couldn't bear the loneliness, the isolation, the hopelessness or the futility of it all, anymore. I truly could not bear it one day longer. I was so "Empty Inside." Hence, the username, "EI." He told me to accept it. He felt defeated and this was the way it was and the way it would remain. 

After trying for so long, I surrendered. I told him that I would never ask for intimacy from him, again, although that still left the door open for him to initiate. But, I also said that I would have passion with or without him. After several more months of silence and distance from him, and, now, hostility, I asked him to move out. This was nearly a year before my "A" began. We have a 24 y/o special needs son who has CP, cognitive disabilities and is wheelchair bound, wears diapers and needs total care. I am his caregiver. Our home is handicapped accessible. So, it was not realistic for me to move out. Besides, my parents and my brother were already deceased and because I haven't "worked" for a paycheck in over 21 years, I neither had a place to go, nor the means to support myself. We have/had no savings. In a few years our youngest would have been grown, (he turned 18 this year) then perhaps I could have gone back to work, at that time, and earned enough to support myself and we could have gone our separate ways. He refused to move out. In early 2011, I decided that I was going to have an affair, and I did make a conscious choice, it was not something that I "just fell in to," I decided to have an affair before I even decided who I was going to have one with. I knew that B1, my husband, would not move out, so I asked him for a legal separation while living under the same roof. We met the criteria for it in our state. We had not slept together or in the same room for months. And, just as he had refused to move out the summer before, he now refused a legal separation. With our children's needs and our financial situation getting a divorce was simply not an option for at least a couple more years. 

So, I became selfish........ I'm not proud of it. But, I absolutely did not do it to hurt him. I did it to survive the loneliness, the isolation and the hopelessness that had become my life. I did it to survive until I could get a divorce. In all honesty, I had been given no reason to believe that he wanted anything from me other than the status quo for a very long time. Did I think my affair would hurt him? No, I did not. But, he wasn't going to make it easy for me in any way. I thought that he was selfish because he didn't want me, but he didn't want me to be with anyone else, either. He told me that, at 45, he was 'done with it.... ready to slow down.' I was crushed. For years, I had waited for him to 'get started.' He seemed determined to suffer and hell bent on me suffering alongside him. However entitled I came to believe that I was to seek happiness outside of my marriage, he seemed just as entitled to continue wallowing in misery and to keep me there with him. I believed that he would be pi$$ed off, (not hurt) making my already miserable life truly unbearable. 

I've read over and over on TAM how the male BS's are devastated and emasculated when their wives have PA's. I am, actually, a very compassionate person and when I read their stories, I can sense the intensity of their pain. I suspect it is not unlike the pain a woman feels when her husband, knowing that she is suffering, hearing her pleas, yet continues to reject her over and over and over, again. 

We now know that my husband was suffering from low Testosterone and severe depression. I had tried and failed many times to get him to seek and then follow through with treatment. At some point, during my "A," he finally, on his own, sought treatment. At that time, every ounce of man in him came alive and his spidey senses began tingling. It was too late. That marriage was over. That wife (me - pre-A) was gone. But, by the grace of God, 15 months later, we are still standing and WE are building a brand new marriage, both of us fully cognizant that there is plenty of blame to go around. We have both owned our transgressions, character flaws and failures. We hurt each other, terribly. But, we have never worked harder or loved one another more deeply than we do, right now. Each day the hurt lessens and the love continues to grow. After 29 years of marriage and dating for three years before marriage, we are now enjoying the greatest intimacy of our entire lives. We both failed one another. But, we refuse to be defined by our greatest failures, but instead, how we chose to rise above them. We are very happy!

Sorry, no time to proof read. Thanks, if you have taken the time to read all the way through this. 

Take care,
~EI


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Can I ask - what keeps you married to your wife?


Nothing at all. I want to stay with her, that is where my emotions are. They can change. But now, that’s where I want to be most consistently.

Lessons learned out of the wayward book; Good and bad, right and wrong are just a matter of perception. You use them to justify an action. The action is based on a emotional pull. So “why” has more to do with the excuse you sell yourself for doing something you want to be doing anyway. I just skip the justification middle man now and go with my gut. It tells me she’s still my one. 

The logical, reasonable side can argue whether or not this is a good thing all day long as well as the various “why” of it. But at the heart, it always ends up with a gut emotional choice.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

EI said:


> Again, I disagree. Yes, I was devoting some time to myself,..... (aka EA/PA) something that I had never done in my entire life, but my children, my friends, my familial obligations, etc., were all being met. I never neglected my children or spent any less time with them. Because they were grown, I found that I had more time to/for myself for the first time ever in my adult life. In addition to raising 5 children, I had also spent several years as a full-time care-giver for my parents until their deaths. I'm not sharing that in an attempt to win anyone's favor, (I'd never be that optimistic) I'm sharing it because it's a fact. Again, for the first time in my life, I had some time on my hands. I had sincerely hoped to reconnect (or simply connect with my husband.) He wasn't interested. The more effort I put into getting closer to him, the more he pulled away. During my EA/PA I continued to do everything for my husband (and family) that I had always done; I cooked, cleaned, did the laundry, shopping, kept the checkbook balanced, paid the bills on time, (obviously, with the $ he earned) kept our medical affairs in order, (it's a big job in our family) saw to our children's needs (2 of our sons had 3 surgeries that year which included months of doctor's appts and physical therapy and they were unable to drive.) There have been 3 more surgeries since, two for another son. Now, we're at 6 surgeries for 3 sons. I never missed a beat at home.
> 
> I was one of those WS's who was "faithful" to my AP during the "A." But, I never had to come up with one single excuse for not being intimate with my husband..... He never attempted to initiate ANY type of intimacy with me the entire time. This went on for over a year. I think that he was genuinely relieved that I was no longer trying to be intimate with him. We had had several lengthy dry spells in the decade leading up to that. Some going on for several months at a time. Prior to my "A," I had asked, begged, pleaded, demanded, and finally threatened him over the obvious lack of intimacy. It wasn't just the physical intimacy, either. He didn't spend any time with me, didn't have a kind word for me, or anyone, at that point. He just hid from the world in the bedroom, at his desk, behind 3 gigantic computer monitors every evening after work and all weekend, every weekend. This wasn't his "work," either. Just his escape. We had no life, together, as husband and wife. I went to therapy, lost weight, I tried everything I could think of to get him back into the world and into our marriage. I talked to him until I was blue in the face. I finally told him that I couldn't bear the loneliness, the isolation, the hopelessness or the futility of it all, anymore. I truly could not bear it one day longer. I was so "Empty Inside." Hence, the username, "EI." He told me to accept it. He felt defeated and this was the way it was and the way it would remain.
> 
> ...


I agree wit the highlighted portion. I tried to convey that in my original post - the WSs don't do it to be vindictive they do it out of colossal selfishness. We agree on that point. However I stand by my other comments - those who cheat do so with utter disregard for other people and the devastation it will cause those around them.


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

I think it does matter. I'd simply say that the length of the affair has an inverse relationship with the likely hood of reconciliation.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

ONE act of betrayal is enough in my view.

Length or intensity of the betrayal do not matter to me at all.

I simply refused to accept it the one time it happened to me.

The relationship was over immediately. I could have cared less if it was a one time mistake or a continuing affair.

And when she came asking for another chance 8 months later, I shut the door on that instantly.

She was dead to me.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I agree wit the highlighted portion. I tried to convey that in my original post - the WSs don't do it to be vindictive they do it out of colossal selfishness. We agree on that point. However I stand by my other comments - those who cheat do so with utter disregard for other people and the devastation it will cause those around them.


And, with all due respect, I will continue to repeat that someone who has never been a WS cannot possibly speak on behalf of one. You simply have no way of knowing what goes on inside the mind and heart of any WS. Was my "A" selfish? Yes. Am I inherently a selfish person? No. I never in my entire life have been described by ANYONE who knows me as being selfish. 

Selfish people simply do not give up their careers to be full-time care-givers for others. Particularly, when there is absolutely no "pay-off" for themselves other than doing what their heart and conscience tells them to do. When our biological sons were 6, 3 and 1, we sold our home, my parents sold their home and we had a home built, together. This, so that I could care for my mother, (who had advanced heart disease,) every day for the last 2 1/2 years of her life..... complete and total care. To phrase it the way my mom used to, I took care of her from a$$hole to appetite. While doing so, I was also caring for my father who had Alzheimer's disease, diabetes and heart disease. Caring-giving for my father went on for 8 years. All this, while raising 5 children. Two of whom, were not our biological children, but were my brother's. That would be our daughter and our special needs son, whom we legally adopted. During this time, B1 was traveling about 40% of the time on his job.

Not for one moment do I think that these hardships or responsibilities justified or made me entitled to cheat (because I know that's how some of you will take what I just said.) The ONLY reason that I shared that is because before you want to label me with colossal selfishness, you're gonna have to walk a day in my shoes. So, please understand, I am NOT offering this as a defense for my cheating, I am offering it to suggest that colossal selfishness does not define me. At the weakest point in my life, I made the selfish choice to take care of my own needs, while still taking care of those of many others, when NO ONE else in my world was doing so. I am human, I am flawed, I was vulnerable and I was weak. I made a poor choice, a selfish choice. But, I am not a selfish person. I am a very giving, compassionate, loving, sympathetic and generous person, who for a time, given NO GOOD OPTIONS, chose infidelity as a means of coping. I think desperate is a much more accurate description. No man is an island. I'm not ashamed to say "I need." I remember when I began to go to bed at night and pray that I wouldn't wake up the next day. I had no desire to wake up in the mornings. But, I had children who I loved and who loved and needed me. Taking my life would have been selfish. Cheating was selfish. Living in misery another day was beyond my capacity. I had reached my breaking point. Even steel has a suffering point, as my dear TAM friend, Acabado, pointed out. That was my nearly fatal flaw. When I said that I could no longer bear it, I meant it. Perhaps, that is a character flaw. It is what it is. I chose not to put a bullet in my head. You don't have to understand any of this. You don't have to agree with it. But, it makes it no less the truth. That was my experience. I don't think that I have ever shared so much on TAM one one thread.....not even the Reconciliation thread. If so, it has been scattered throughout 100's of posts. I don't think that this will make anyone view me or my situation any differently than they already do. But, sharing it has been cathartic for me. I'm trying to heal, so that, in turn, I am better able to help my family heal.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

5 minutes would be a lot easier to forgive than 50 years.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Racer said:


> Nothing at all. I want to stay with her, that is where my emotions are. They can change. But now, that’s where I want to be most consistently.
> 
> Lessons learned out of the wayward book; Good and bad, right and wrong are just a matter of perception. You use them to justify an action. The action is based on a emotional pull. So “why” has more to do with the excuse you sell yourself for doing something you want to be doing anyway. I just skip the justification middle man now and go with my gut. It tells me she’s still my one.
> 
> The logical, reasonable side can argue whether or not this is a good thing all day long as well as the various “why” of it. But at the heart, it always ends up with a gut emotional choice.


Them dang emotions.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> 5 minutes would be a lot easier to forgive than 50 years.


Imagine getting the info 50 years late, and you can now understand why you had all this extra stress, why the spouse appeared to be always somewhere else, where their priorities for the situation with you had slipped, etc. All the time and life stolen for a marginal situation on top of it.


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

EI said:


> And, with all due respect, I will continue to repeat that someone who has never been a WS cannot possibly speak on behalf of one. You simply have no way of knowing what goes on inside the mind and heart of any WS. Was my "A" selfish? Yes. Am I inherently a selfish person? No. I never in my entire life have been described by ANYONE who knows me as being selfish.
> 
> Selfish people simply do not give up their careers to be full-time care-givers for others. Particularly, when there is absolutely no "pay-off" for themselves other than doing what their heart and conscience tells them to do. When our biological sons were 6, 3 and 1, we sold our home, my parents sold their home and we had a home built, together. This, so that I could care for my mother, (who had advanced heart disease,) every day for the last 2 1/2 years of her life..... complete and total care. To phrase it the way my mom used to, I took care of her from a$$hole to appetite. While doing so, I was also caring for my father who had Alzheimer's disease, diabetes and heart disease. Caring-giving for my father went on for 8 years. All this, while raising 5 children. Two of whom, were not our biological children, but were my brother's. That would be our daughter and our special needs son, whom we legally adopted. During this time, B1 was traveling about 40% of the time on his job.
> 
> Not for one moment do I think that these hardships or responsibilities justified or made me entitled to cheat (because I know that's how some of you will take what I just said.) The ONLY reason that I shared that is because before you want to label me with colossal selfishness, you're gonna have to walk a day in my shoes. So, please understand, I am NOT offering this as a defense for my cheating, I am offering it to suggest that colossal selfishness does not define me. At the weakest point in my life, I made the selfish choice to take care of my own needs, while still taking care of those of many others, when NO ONE else in my world was doing so. I am human, I am flawed, I was vulnerable and I was weak. I made a poor choice, a selfish choice. But, I am not a selfish person. I am a very giving, compassionate, loving, sympathetic and generous person, who for a time, given NO GOOD OPTIONS, chose infidelity as a means of coping. I think desperate is a much more accurate description. No man is an island. I'm not ashamed to say "I need." I remember when I began to go to bed at night and pray that I wouldn't wake up the next day. I had no desire to wake up in the mornings. But, I had children who I loved and who loved and needed me. Taking my life would have been selfish. Cheating was selfish. Living in misery another day was beyond my capacity. I had reached my breaking point. Even steel has a suffering point, as my dear TAM friend, Acabado, pointed out. That was my nearly fatal flaw. When I said that I could no longer bear it, I meant it. Perhaps, that is a character flaw. It is what it is. I chose not to put a bullet in my head. You don't have to understand any of this. You don't have to agree with it. But, it makes it no less the truth. That was my experience. I don't think that I have ever shared so much on TAM one one thread.....not even the Reconciliation thread. If so, it has been scattered throughout 100's of posts. I don't think that this will make anyone view me or my situation any differently than they already do. But, sharing it has been cathartic for me. I'm trying to heal, so that, in turn, I am better able to help my family heal.


 I must say that I read this and am glad that you stood up. But despite your efforts to help your mother and father. The cheating spoils it all. You were selfless with your mother and father loyal and caring. You fought hard to make them happy. Did your HUsband not deserve the same respect and treatment? I don't know your whole story nor do I intend to fight with you. I just wish to pose a question. You don't have to answer me. Just ask yourself. Because it does take colossial selfishness to cheat. I can't speak for WS but I have fought with some on this very board for months to get them to see past the fog an A creates. Sorry if I interjected.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

A drunken one night stand v "How can I hide my ongoing affair with my spouse's best friend?"

Yeah. I know which I feel is worse.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

badbane said:


> I must say that I read this and am glad that you stood up. But despite your efforts to help your mother and father. The cheating spoils it all. You were selfless with your mother and father loyal and caring. You fought hard to make them happy. Did your HUsband not deserve the same respect and treatment? I don't know your whole story nor do I intend to fight with you. I just wish to pose a question. You don't have to answer me. Just ask yourself. Because it does take colossial selfishness to cheat. I can't speak for WS but I have fought with some on this very board for months to get them to see past the fog an A creates. Sorry if I interjected.



No, please don't be sorry for interjecting. I am very much in favor of a polite and courteous dialogue between BS's and FWS's on TAM. If nothing else, TAM does give us a very unique opportunity to gain a greater understanding of infidelity from both sides. From TAM, I was able to truly gain an understanding of the devastation that infidelity causes the BS. When I first posted my story, over a year ago, it was only 2 1/2 weeks after D-Day. I was still very much "in the fog." I was still extremely angry and bitter towards my BS.... Yes, you read that right. I was angry, furious, in fact. I was sorry..... but, only that I got caught. I was too angry at my BS for unresolved hurts in our marriage, prior to my affair, to feel any compassion for his suffering, at that point. I really couldn't understand why he was suffering. Not after the years of emotional and physical neglect I had endured from him. Only through the stories of the other BS's, here, on TAM, was I able to begin to understand what my husband was experiencing. The last 15 months have been life changing for both, B1, and myself. 

I could write endlessly, but I honestly think it might, perhaps, be more beneficial if B1 were to respond to you, himself. As far as my cheating "spoiling it all," I suppose that my parents, (who are deceased) my husband and our children, would be the greater judge of that. 

I'll ask B1 if he will respond. 

Thank you for commenting with courtesy.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

EI said:


> And, with all due respect, I will continue to repeat that someone who has never been a WS cannot possibly speak on behalf of one. You simply have no way of knowing what goes on inside the mind and heart of any WS. Was my "A" selfish? Yes. Am I inherently a selfish person? No. I never in my entire life have been described by ANYONE who knows me as being selfish.
> 
> Selfish people simply do not give up their careers to be full-time care-givers for others. Particularly, when there is absolutely no "pay-off" for themselves other than doing what their heart and conscience tells them to do. When our biological sons were 6, 3 and 1, we sold our home, my parents sold their home and we had a home built, together. This, so that I could care for my mother, (who had advanced heart disease,) every day for the last 2 1/2 years of her life..... complete and total care. To phrase it the way my mom used to, I took care of her from a$$hole to appetite. While doing so, I was also caring for my father who had Alzheimer's disease, diabetes and heart disease. Caring-giving for my father went on for 8 years. All this, while raising 5 children. Two of whom, were not our biological children, but were my brother's. That would be our daughter and our special needs son, whom we legally adopted. During this time, B1 was traveling about 40% of the time on his job.
> 
> Not for one moment do I think that these hardships or responsibilities justified or made me entitled to cheat (because I know that's how some of you will take what I just said.) The ONLY reason that I shared that is because before you want to label me with colossal selfishness, you're gonna have to walk a day in my shoes. So, please understand, I am NOT offering this as a defense for my cheating, I am offering it to suggest that colossal selfishness does not define me. At the weakest point in my life, I made the selfish choice to take care of my own needs, while still taking care of those of many others, when NO ONE else in my world was doing so. I am human, I am flawed, I was vulnerable and I was weak. I made a poor choice, a selfish choice. But, I am not a selfish person. I am a very giving, compassionate, loving, sympathetic and generous person, who for a time, given NO GOOD OPTIONS, chose infidelity as a means of coping. I think desperate is a much more accurate description. No man is an island. I'm not ashamed to say "I need." I remember when I began to go to bed at night and pray that I wouldn't wake up the next day. I had no desire to wake up in the mornings. But, I had children who I loved and who loved and needed me. Taking my life would have been selfish. Cheating was selfish. Living in misery another day was beyond my capacity. I had reached my breaking point. Even steel has a suffering point, as my dear TAM friend, Acabado, pointed out. That was my nearly fatal flaw. When I said that I could no longer bear it, I meant it. Perhaps, that is a character flaw. It is what it is. I chose not to put a bullet in my head. You don't have to understand any of this. You don't have to agree with it. But, it makes it no less the truth. That was my experience. I don't think that I have ever shared so much on TAM one one thread.....not even the Reconciliation thread. If so, it has been scattered throughout 100's of posts. I don't think that this will make anyone view me or my situation any differently than they already do. But, sharing it has been cathartic for me. I'm trying to heal, so that, in turn, I am better able to help my family heal.


Is it possible that you cared so much for others, shared so much of yourself with others that there was not much left of yourself for yourself?

You made a 'bad' decision, but under the circumstances that's perfectly understandable, I would argue.

And "spoiled it all?" No. I don't think so.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: Does the length of the affair matter to you?*



The Middleman said:


> Here is another question: Did BS's trust to much pre-affair and while the affair was ongoing? Should there be a little more skepticism in a relationship?


This is what I can't away with from my first marriage. Not so much a distrust but a healthy dose of reality regarding the human condition.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: Does the length of the affair matter to you?*



treyvion said:


> Dunno. It's probably a good human trait to have a level of self preservation and scepticism.
> 
> Do you think you should choose someone that you always have to watch behind them to make sure they aren't pulling one over on you? It would be alot more efficient if the one you are in the relationship with was actually trustworthy.


I would say it's not so much having to watch someone as it is knowing that they are just people and the reality is that betrayal is a possibility. Call it a tougher skin.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I agree wit the highlighted portion. I tried to convey that in my original post - the WSs don't do it to be vindictive they do it out of colossal selfishness. We agree on that point. However I stand by my other comments - those who cheat do so with utter disregard for other people and the devastation it will cause those around them.


Selfish? Or a feeling of utter brokenness? Of wanting something.

Why did I cheat with an EA that nearly went PA? 

One reason that I figured out afterwards was I wanted someone who hadn't cheated on me.

And sometimes a spouse can cheat on their partner but not sexually cheat on them. An EA with a job or a hobby?


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> Selfish? Or a feeling of utter brokenness? Of wanting something.
> 
> Why did I cheat with an EA that nearly went PA?
> 
> ...


Matt - selfishness is a huge part of infidelity....


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

I should think if an affair has gone on for a long time, there's been a lot more lies and deception to cover it up. I should imagine that that might be more difficult to accept than a short affair. 

Having said that, cheating is cheating no matter how long it's gone on, and it would be something I'd be unlikely to forgive no matter what the duration.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Matt - selfishness is a huge part of infidelity....


I agree with you 100%. Infidelity is ALWAYS, in itself, a very selfish decision. Selfishness can manifest itself in many, many ways. Infidelity certainly being one of the most damaging of those ways. But, there are other ways to be colossally selfish. Ways that can leave its victims just as damaged as the victims of infidelity.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

EI said:


> I agree with you 100%. Infidelity is ALWAYS, in itself, a very selfish decision. Selfishness can manifest itself in many, many ways. Infidelity certainly being one of the most damaging of those ways. But, there are other ways to be colossally selfish. Ways that can leave its victims just as damaged as the victims of infidelity.


It was very out of character for my wife as well, since she's always been one of the most unselfish people I've known. 

A downside to that trait is the 'my AP needed me..' thing.

I also think the excuse making, and self delusion is a reason why an unselfish person can all of the sudden act selfish.. I think it can also push the excuses, such as the 'I deserve time for me' type of thoughts...


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## sang-froid (May 2, 2013)

russell28 said:


> It was very out of character for my wife as well, since she's always been one of the most unselfish people I've known.
> 
> A downside to that trait is the 'my AP needed me..' thing.
> 
> I also think the excuse making, and self delusion is a reason why an unselfish person can all of the sudden act selfish.. I think it can also push the excuses, such as the 'I deserve time for me' type of thoughts...


My H has always been the help everyone out, apparently selfless, loyal husband/father/son/friend. But in being so 'selfless' he was filling a need to get attention and feel needed. He also used it to push the excuses of I deserve something for me because look at all I do for everyone else.


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## sang-froid (May 2, 2013)

For me, the length of the affair does matter. My H's PA was a brief out of town ONS (he says), at most a few encounters. That bothers me less than his (supposed) EA only, where he deceived for months, sometimes sending texts with me in the room, while I was right there trying to get him to see me.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sang-froid said:


> For me, the length of the affair does matter. My H's PA was a brief out of town ONS (he says), at most a few encounters. That bothers me less than his (supposed) EA only, where he deceived for months, sometimes sending texts with me in the room, while I was right there trying to get him to see me.


So the emotional attachment to the OW in an EA was more difficult for you to swallow than the meaningless phyiscal release of a ONS?


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Truthseeker1 said:


> So the emotional attachment to the OW in an EA was more difficult for you to swallow than the meaningless phyiscal release of a ONS?


I know in my story it was. Her second confessed PA was sort of a rapey ONS. (he triggered her rape so she let him out of fear). That was easier than the LTPA by far.

The EA was more difficult too than the ONS. But a lot of that had to do with her taking the EA underground after DD creating a false R. Prior EA's weren't hard for me.... 

The easiest was her relationship and PA with another woman. They did it for attention rather than any deeper feelings about each other. Always in public to drive guys toward them. (making out, groping, dirty dancing, etc.)

Also keep in mind that after bodies keep floating up, you just sort of stop becoming more traumatized by each one. Happens with SA's and their BS's. You also don't really blame the OM's with a SA.... it can be no one else's fault really besides your spouse. No "mistakes were made". It was intentional and repetitive. She did this. 

Might also help you understand some of my perceptions.....


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Racer said:


> I know in my story it was. Her second confessed PA was sort of a rapey ONS. (he triggered her rape so she let him out of fear). That was easier than the LTPA by far.
> 
> The EA was more difficult too than the ONS. But a lot of that had to do with her taking the EA underground after DD creating a false R. Prior EA's weren't hard for me....
> 
> ...


how many affairs did she have in total?


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Truthseeker1 said:


> how many affairs did she have in total?


Confessed:
1 LTPA
1 PA (ONS... but done twice (long story))
1 Quasi PA (the woman)
1 EA (sexting buddy)
2 EA's (emotional pull and constant need to contact; like several hundred texts and hours of calls over a month)
1 EA (crush she tried to PA but got rejected)

Various other players of guys she let hit on her and just ended up kissing but not calling again (she didn't want them). Probably 4 of those. Several more she admits she 'tested'.

Gut feeling I have:
I'm guessing there are probably a couple PA's she's hidden like the EA's really did go physical. Particularly the crush one I have a feeling dumped her afterwards. I'm also assuming there are other PA's with 'undiscoverable' sorts like reps who'd fly in from other branch offices she was flirty with and would go out with when they were in town...

It spans from 2002 until 2009.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Racer said:


> Confessed:
> 1 LTPA
> 1 PA (ONS... but done twice (long story))
> 1 Quasi PA (the woman)
> ...


A few questions - how do you live with her continuing lies? Is she remorseful at all? How long was her LTPA? 

The highlighted part sounds like torture.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

You know truthseeker, I've often pondered a different question. 

My wife had a two year PA, planned as an exit affair. I sometimes wonder if it would have hurt less if she had been a serial cheater (assuming she wasn't) like Racer's wife (no offense Racer), indiscriminately giving it up to various POSOM's over the same period, with no intention of leaving.

In a sorted way of thinking, I think it would have hurt less, but at the same time, I don't think I could have attempted R; due to the larger disgust factor.

Which is worse to you?


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

badmemory said:


> You know truthseeker, I've often pondered a different question.
> 
> My wife had a two year PA, planned as an exit affair. I sometimes wonder if it would have hurt less if she had been a serial cheater (assuming she wasn't) like Racer's wife (no offense Racer), indiscriminately giving it up to various POSOM's over the same period, with no intention of leaving.
> 
> ...


A LTA PA no doubt would be the worse for me...


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Truthseeker1 said:


> A few questions - how do you live with her continuing lies? Is she remorseful at all? How long was her LTPA?
> 
> The highlighted part sounds like torture.


Starting with the last... Her LTPA was just 2 years long. 

Is she remorseful? I’d say yes... I watched her (or pushed her to) hit bottom. She hated who she became and got suicidal over it. It’s sort of ‘one of those signs’ that if you stick around you will tend to see remorseful WW’s do get to for a lot of them (EI even mentioned it).

How to get past the continued lies... That one is harder. I accept she is a liar and will always be one. I answered it on another thread:

It becomes a choice whether you can deal with it or not. Like my wife, she lies, really big lies and will continue to dig her grave deeper when called out. It took me figuring out under what circumstances she feels that need to lie... and it all has to do with her looking really bad in the reflection she see’s in my eyes. So I work with it as best I can; I make sure she knows that I accept flaws in people and do not ever expect perfection. I accept her irrational thoughts and will poke fun at them. All this so she doesn’t have to see herself as pond scum whenever she screws up and feel she needs to hide it from me... She hopefully knows that it’s ok to screw up things every now and again in my eyes.

There are ‘levels’ of screwups though that require ramifications. I’ve adopted a carrot and stick approach with a lot of mirroring back whatever she projects my way.

As for ‘not really knowing’ the extent of her adultery. Well, look at that list already. I think we’ve established a ‘level’ of adultery and ‘character’. I do have a “why” that I accept. I do have remorse. I already mentioned that new bodies floating up aren’t really traumatic OMG! things. It’s just another name on a long list. Sort of like the ‘kissing’ ones didn’t even warrant me getting upset about or finding out more about those guys.... Desensitized? Probably fits me. “Welcome to Wonderland Alice”... You adapt to your surroundings. 

Curiosity does come, like triggers... But she’s a liar; I don’t forget what it took to get the confessions I have. It was severely painful to have to embrace a ‘dark side’ to drive her deeper and deeper into the pit. Part of my innocence and ‘the dreamer’ died becoming like that. Santa Claus is a fake. “Growing up” sucks. And a deeper sick part of me liked it; hurting her, ripping her self-esteem apart, etc. So, I accept that within me, I could allow myself to be consumed by it all and all that rage; I choose not to be that guy.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Truthseeker,

I totally understand why others view LTA's as worse than ONS.

I actually think that the reason it makes no difference for myself has something to do with my own personality.

I think the reason LTA's hurt others more is because of the feelings they still have for their WS's. The fact that those feelings have been so consistently betrayed over a long period of time, and with large amounts of lying and deception crushes them even more.

With myself, I have a somewhat odd ability (and some may even call it unhealthy) to mentally take my emotional feeling for another person who has wronged me and, for lack of a better way of describing it, stab it to death almost instantly. 

I immediately turn to full hatred and disgust with the person, but after a few weeks, they will be completely dead to me. I will have no emotional attachment to them at all.

I not only did this with my exGF who cheated on me, but even with close friends and family members who have wronged me.

The pattern has always been the same for me, no matter the length of the betrayal.

Some of my friends have described me as having a major cold streak in my nature, and that I can be ruthless in dealing with those who screw me over. They are sometimes shocked at how easily and completely I can detach from others.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

badmemory said:


> My wife had a two year PA, planned as an exit affair. I sometimes wonder if it would have hurt less if she had been a serial cheater (assuming she wasn't) like Racer's wife (no offense Racer), indiscriminately giving it up to various POSOM's over the same period, with no intention of leaving.


No offense taken. It was actually a 'consoling' part that she had no plans at all to leave me. As sick as it sounds, I knew I offered ‘something’ she valued highly. I did use that as a weapon later after the false R. I couldn’t push her away.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Dyokemm said:


> Truthseeker,
> 
> I totally understand why others view LTA's as worse than ONS.
> 
> ...


Infidelity aside - Don't you think that could be a double edged sword? Throwing people out of your life who made a terrible choice and who would gladly make amends? Some offenders are sorry and change - do you allow them the chance at redemption ever?


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

How many of you, like me, had a really fallow relationships up to the point where the A started? We were in a bad place - I literally felt like I did not want here around, I was not a nice person to be with and she obviously got that vibe from me. We were in a terrible rut with rare moments of, what I thought, was pretty hot sex (apparently she didn't enjoy it). However the truth was that we had detached from each other - we were out of love (or whatever it was we had).

I had convinced myself that this unpleasant environment justified the affair. Madness I know, but i thought that. But the truth is that things weren't good and a snake came along and filled the void. The old story so many of us relate to - and she is equally culpable. Fact - end of story. But she absolutely refuses to acknowledge what I know in my heart of hearts, what so many of you have shared and commented on since Easter this year. It was not simply fantasy, the sex was good, she did have a deep emotional involvement with him (despite the unrealistic fantasising about a possible future together - that fantasy aspect I will buy). The texts and e-mails tell the truth - but deny she must.

So, excuse me venting but the length of the EA & PA is super important to me and definitely informs my ability to forgive. But to be honest people, after 5 months I can't forgive - I don't want to forgive. I am so pissed off that she refuses on any level to acknowledge the depth and intensity of her A, to answer forensic questioning that I can't get past it. My challenge is to move on from her.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Horizon said:


> How many of you, like me, had a really fallow relationships up to the point where the A started? We were in a bad place - I literally felt like I did not want here around, I was not a nice person to be with and she obviously got that vibe from me. We were in a terrible rut with rare moments of, what I thought, was pretty hot sex (apparently she didn't enjoy it). However the truth was that we had detached from each other - we were out of love (or whatever it was we had).
> 
> I had convinced myself that this unpleasant environment justified the affair. Madness I know, but i thought that. But the truth is that things weren't good and a snake came along and filled the void. The old story so many of us relate to - and she is equally culpable. Fact - end of story. But she absolutely refuses to acknowledge what I know in my heart of hearts, what so many of you have shared and commented on since Easter this year. It was not simply fantasy, the sex was good, she did have a deep emotional involvement with him (despite the unrealistic fantasising about a possible future together - that fantasy aspect I will buy). The texts and e-mails tell the truth - but deny she must.
> 
> *So, excuse me venting but the length of the EA & PA is super important to me and definitely informs my ability to forgive. But to be honest people, after 5 months I can't forgive - I don't want to forgive. I am so pissed off that she refuses on any level to acknowledge the depth and intensity of her A, to answer forensic questioning that I can't get past it. My challenge is to move on from her.*


Had she been more truthful - could you have begun to heal and maybe move on?


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Racer said:


> LTPA’s, or in my case also a general long period of time spanning years of adulterous actions, are a nasty beast to deal with...
> 
> So, I don’t have to just forgive her for her adultery and “that weekend”. I have to forgive her for accepting those diamond earrings, those vacations, the new house I didn’t want or need, every single holiday we celebrated together (and unknowingly with outside parties), a sexless marriage using invalid excuses, and on and on and on.
> 
> ...


Spot on - how many of us are even close to understanding our partners "operations manual"? No wonder you understand my predicament Racer, there really are carbon copy experiences here.

The thing that gets me after all is said and done is that she is not actively doing anything to help re-build us. yes, I have to detach as is pointed out and as I am doing a little mor each day but I thought she would be better than this. But no, she is always so tired or whatever. 

I will never meet that excitement factor of her affair and that excitement factor is obviously what makes me pretty sure it will happen again. It's intoxicating, another addiction. 

Let's face it, if nothing active is happening in the bedroom, if your WS carries on as if all is OK, if nothing proactive happens to bond (from either side) then really, what do you have?


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

EI said:


> Again, I disagree. Yes, I was devoting some time to myself,..... (aka EA/PA) something that I had never done in my entire life, but my children, my friends, my familial obligations, etc., were all being met. I never neglected my children or spent any less time with them. Because they were grown, I found that I had more time to/for myself for the first time ever in my adult life. In addition to raising 5 children, I had also spent several years as a full-time care-giver for my parents until their deaths. I'm not sharing that in an attempt to win anyone's favor, (I'd never be that optimistic) I'm sharing it because it's a fact. Again, for the first time in my life, I had some time on my hands. I had sincerely hoped to reconnect (or simply connect with my husband.) He wasn't interested. The more effort I put into getting closer to him, the more he pulled away. During my EA/PA I continued to do everything for my husband (and family) that I had always done; I cooked, cleaned, did the laundry, shopping, kept the checkbook balanced, paid the bills on time, (obviously, with the $ he earned) kept our medical affairs in order, (it's a big job in our family) saw to our children's needs (2 of our sons had 3 surgeries that year which included months of doctor's appts and physical therapy and they were unable to drive.) There have been 3 more surgeries since, two for another son. Now, we're at 6 surgeries for 3 sons. I never missed a beat at home.
> 
> I was one of those WS's who was "faithful" to my AP during the "A." But, I never had to come up with one single excuse for not being intimate with my husband..... He never attempted to initiate ANY type of intimacy with me the entire time. This went on for over a year. I think that he was genuinely relieved that I was no longer trying to be intimate with him. We had had several lengthy dry spells in the decade leading up to that. Some going on for several months at a time. Prior to my "A," I had asked, begged, pleaded, demanded, and finally threatened him over the obvious lack of intimacy. It wasn't just the physical intimacy, either. He didn't spend any time with me, didn't have a kind word for me, or anyone, at that point. He just hid from the world in the bedroom, at his desk, behind 3 gigantic computer monitors every evening after work and all weekend, every weekend. This wasn't his "work," either. Just his escape. We had no life, together, as husband and wife. I went to therapy, lost weight, I tried everything I could think of to get him back into the world and into our marriage. I talked to him until I was blue in the face. I finally told him that I couldn't bear the loneliness, the isolation, the hopelessness or the futility of it all, anymore. I truly could not bear it one day longer. I was so "Empty Inside." Hence, the username, "EI." He told me to accept it. He felt defeated and this was the way it was and the way it would remain.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the detail EI - I'd be interested to know what you both actively do to put the past behind you and re-build. How have you risen above your greatest failures? Thanks.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Racer said:


> Nothing at all. I want to stay with her, that is where my emotions are. They can change. But now, that’s where I want to be most consistently.
> 
> Lessons learned out of the wayward book; Good and bad, right and wrong are just a matter of perception. You use them to justify an action. The action is based on a emotional pull. So “why” has more to do with the excuse you sell yourself for doing something you want to be doing anyway. I just skip the justification middle man now and go with my gut. It tells me she’s still my one.
> 
> The logical, reasonable side can argue whether or not this is a good thing all day long as well as the various “why” of it. But at the heart, it always ends up with a gut emotional choice.


excuse my prying, but do you and your wife have an active physical relationship, are you happy in this dept?


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

EI said:


> And, with all due respect, I will continue to repeat that someone who has never been a WS cannot possibly speak on behalf of one. You simply have no way of knowing what goes on inside the mind and heart of any WS. Was my "A" selfish? Yes. Am I inherently a selfish person? No. I never in my entire life have been described by ANYONE who knows me as being selfish.
> 
> Selfish people simply do not give up their careers to be full-time care-givers for others. Particularly, when there is absolutely no "pay-off" for themselves other than doing what their heart and conscience tells them to do. When our biological sons were 6, 3 and 1, we sold our home, my parents sold their home and we had a home built, together. This, so that I could care for my mother, (who had advanced heart disease,) every day for the last 2 1/2 years of her life..... complete and total care. To phrase it the way my mom used to, I took care of her from a$$hole to appetite. While doing so, I was also caring for my father who had Alzheimer's disease, diabetes and heart disease. Caring-giving for my father went on for 8 years. All this, while raising 5 children. Two of whom, were not our biological children, but were my brother's. That would be our daughter and our special needs son, whom we legally adopted. During this time, B1 was traveling about 40% of the time on his job.
> 
> Not for one moment do I think that these hardships or responsibilities justified or made me entitled to cheat (because I know that's how some of you will take what I just said.) The ONLY reason that I shared that is because before you want to label me with colossal selfishness, you're gonna have to walk a day in my shoes. So, please understand, I am NOT offering this as a defense for my cheating, I am offering it to suggest that colossal selfishness does not define me. At the weakest point in my life, I made the selfish choice to take care of my own needs, while still taking care of those of many others, when NO ONE else in my world was doing so. I am human, I am flawed, I was vulnerable and I was weak. I made a poor choice, a selfish choice. But, I am not a selfish person. I am a very giving, compassionate, loving, sympathetic and generous person, who for a time, given NO GOOD OPTIONS, chose infidelity as a means of coping. I think desperate is a much more accurate description. No man is an island. I'm not ashamed to say "I need." I remember when I began to go to bed at night and pray that I wouldn't wake up the next day. I had no desire to wake up in the mornings. But, I had children who I loved and who loved and needed me. Taking my life would have been selfish. Cheating was selfish. Living in misery another day was beyond my capacity. I had reached my breaking point. Even steel has a suffering point, as my dear TAM friend, Acabado, pointed out. That was my nearly fatal flaw. When I said that I could no longer bear it, I meant it. Perhaps, that is a character flaw. It is what it is. I chose not to put a bullet in my head. You don't have to understand any of this. You don't have to agree with it. But, it makes it no less the truth. That was my experience. I don't think that I have ever shared so much on TAM one one thread.....not even the Reconciliation thread. If so, it has been scattered throughout 100's of posts. I don't think that this will make anyone view me or my situation any differently than they already do. But, sharing it has been cathartic for me. I'm trying to heal, so that, in turn, I am better able to help my family heal.


EI, was there too much at stake to leave / divorce after such a long period of pressure & heartache?


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Had she been more truthful - could you have begun to heal and maybe move on?


That's the $64 question? You don't know, but wouldn't it be great to have the opportunity. The whole notion of Recon is hamstrung. I do believe on second thought that distinct remorse on her part would have been a massive plus for us.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Horizon said:


> Thanks for the detail EI - I'd be interested to know what you both actively do to put the past behind you and re-build. How have you risen above your greatest failures? Thanks.


Go to the Reconciliation thread, you will get a day to day on real Rs, specially EI and B1.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

This is a hard question for me.
Each affair my old lady had was often brief and last less then a month at beast. I think her longest was just a few months. The one that got her busted.

So for 13 years she screwed around with short flings and random ONS. So I think its more of the length of her adultorous life style more then the length she was with any one perticular guy.

It bothers me to hear that she could go several years with out screwing around, but some how go back to her old ways.

Thats what really matters to me is the amount of time she can continue to affair proof her marriage, not the amount of time she cheated.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

the guy said:


> This is a hard question for me.
> Each affair my old lady had was often brief and last less then a month at beast. I think her longest was just a few months. The one that got her busted.
> 
> So for 13 years she screwed around with short flings and random ONS. So I think its more of the length of her adultorous life style more then the length she was with any one perticular guy.
> ...


If she wants to be like this, there is nothing you can do to stop her. You can choose to not be in her life and let one of these OM's take care of her. She shouldn't use you for stability and them for sex, that's just not right.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

the guy said:


> This is a hard question for me.
> Each affair my old lady had was often brief and last less then a month at beast. I think her longest was just a few months. The one that got her busted.
> 
> So for 13 years she screwed around with short flings and random ONS. So I think its more of the length of her adultorous life style more then the length she was with any one perticular guy.
> ...


have you addressed this issue with her?


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> have you addressed this issue with her?


How could he even make her care?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

treyvion said:


> How could he even make her care?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I thought they were in the process of reconciliation...


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Horizon said:


> excuse my prying, but do you and your wife have an active physical relationship, are you happy in this dept?


Yes. Happy at first, but it’s slowly starting to devolve into her old dynamics. Rather than thread jack this thread, I’ll paste it into yours.


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## VeryHurt (Mar 11, 2011)

Does the length of the affair matter to you?

All aspects of the affair mattered to me: the length, the width, the diameter, the radius, the EVERYTHING !!!!

Very Hurt


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I thought they were in the process of reconciliation...


But if she's in the back of her mind knowing she could start it back up and it's an attractive option, I don't think they can reconcile well... I think it will be a half-hearted attempt unless she kills that side.

Of course that option may be better than heading into a sexless relationship! But I dont think she had to worry about being sexless with her husband.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

treyvion said:


> But if she's in the back of her mind knowing she could start it back up and it's an attractive option, I don't think they can reconcile well... I think it will be a half-hearted attempt unless she kills that side..


That's why you need to see the true remorse. The affair isn't an attractive option or fond memory and seen as the low point of who they allowed themselves to be. They loathe themselves for being 'that' as well as the OP for being 'no better'. You can sense them cringe when something triggers for them those memories... 

Rugsweeping is scary because it may allow them to hold onto 'fond memories' and start up the "forbidden love" romantic fantasy revolving in their back of their head like they are 'stuck' in a loveless marriage to you and there true love is out there looking for them. 

I'd hate not knowing. I had to see those cringing thoughts and anger with herself before reconciling.


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## BlackSwan (Apr 2, 2013)

To answer the question.

The length of the affair does matter to me. Length defines the complexity of the affair relationship and the strategic planning of ongoing deception. My hurt and pain is about proportional to that on an exponential scale.

I only wish my WS had only a one night stand or a very brief fling. I an not saying that it wouldn't hurt and shake my life, it still would.

However, I hate having to question my reality and perception of my life for 6 months or longer while I was betrayed and deceived. One thing that I have learned, is that it's never simple.

Questioning your reality on your perception of your life is a big bullet to take. History re-written upon the moment of such discovery.

Length does matter to me.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Racer said:


> That's why you need to see the true remorse. The affair isn't an attractive option or fond memory and seen as the low point of who they allowed themselves to be. They loathe themselves for being 'that' as well as the OP for being 'no better'. You can sense them cringe when something triggers for them those memories...
> 
> Rugsweeping is scary because it may allow them to hold onto 'fond memories' and start up the "forbidden love" romantic fantasy revolving in their back of their head like they are 'stuck' in a loveless marriage to you and there true love is out there looking for them.
> 
> I'd hate not knowing. I had to see those cringing thoughts and anger with herself before reconciling.


Well you're supposed to feel really bad and hurt for hurting the one so close to you in this way. I mean how can you look at yourself in the mirror without rugsweeping or lieing?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

the guy said:


> This is a hard question for me.
> Each affair my old lady had was often brief and last less then a month at beast. I think her longest was just a few months. The one that got her busted.
> 
> So for 13 years she screwed around with short flings and random ONS. So I think its more of the length of her adultorous life style more then the length she was with any one perticular guy.
> ...


You and your lady are more crazy than a bag of cats!!! But I sure like your posts! You give a lot of hope and positive input! I hate the early part of your story, but I love what you are doing now! Keep it up you barbarian!! LOL! :smthumbup:


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

ConanHub said:


> Keep it up you barbarian!! LOL! :smthumbup:


Wow, this explains alot...no wonder my lair looks like it does. Mrs. the-guys idea of making a bed is throwing more furs on it

Sorry for the threadjack, I haven't been called a barberian since Satuday...when I was cleaning my dinner.

My son caught two nice size seabass.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

BlackSwan said:


> To answer the question.
> *
> The length of the affair does matter to me. Length defines the complexity of the affair relationship and the strategic planning of ongoing deception. My hurt and pain is about proportional to that on an exponential scale.*
> 
> ...


Well said...the longer the affair the more it bleeds into your everyday life...the repeated likes and deception do hurt more..than a one night mistake in my opinion..I realize for some people even one time is a deal breaker...


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Well said...the longer the affair the more it bleeds into your everyday life...the repeated likes and deception do hurt more..than a one night mistake in my opinion..I realize for some people even one time is a deal breaker...


And they keep lying - everyday. It's a world of lies and it lives on long after the last word is spoken. Being betrayed is a life sentence, you don't get over it you just kind of sort of get used to it....somehow.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

Not for me. My ex h had several ONS and a couple longer term emotional affairs at the same time. He married one of the long term affair mistresses and they've been together 20 years now. He's done the same to her. I'm just grateful I'm not in her shoes and moved on a long time ago. Indefinitely of any kind is a deal breaker. Even the ONS doesn't make it any easier or better in my opinion.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> Not for me. My ex h had several ONS and a couple longer term emotional affairs at the same time. He married one of the long term affair mistresses and they've been together 20 years now. He's done the same to her. I'm just grateful I'm not in her shoes and moved on a long time ago. Indefinitely of any kind is a deal breaker. Even the ONS doesn't make it any easier or better in my opinion.


So right - betrayed is betrayed. Glad you moved on


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Horizon said:


> And they keep lying - everyday. It's a world of lies and it lives on long after the last word is spoken. *Being betrayed is a life sentence, you don't get over it you just kind of sort of get used to it....somehow.*


:iagree::iagree: What WS, even remorseful ones, do not seem to fully comprehend is they have changed their BS forever...no excuse or reason for having their affair can EVER justify this...


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> Not for me. My ex h had several ONS and a couple longer term emotional affairs at the same time. He married one of the long term affair mistresses and they've been together 20 years now. He's done the same to her. I'm just grateful I'm not in her shoes and moved on a long time ago. *Indefinitely of any kind is a deal breaker. Even the ONS doesn't make it any easier or better in my opinion.*


I totally respect that position..glad you are happy now!! :smthumbup:


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