# Attitudes about sex, who is right?



## goodlookingmom (Jun 1, 2013)

My husband and I have been together for about 15 years, 7 of those years we've been married. We have two kids. After the delivery of our first child, I had very bad PPD for two years (also triggered another illness, which resulted in many health problems). We had little sex then because I was depressed, full of self-loathing, sick and guilty that was working and not caring for our son. I tried to give him more attention, but I admit it was difficult. But sometime during all of this, my husband decided that sex was something I owed him. For example, if I went out shopping for 2 hours while he looked after our child, he was mad that I didn't initiate sex to thank him. It just continued to get worse from there until he was so angry he yelled at me about it.
After our second was born, I stayed home and I have been healthy and happy. I am trying to be that awesome wife that cooks amazing food, plans fun activities for the kids, started a home business to make extra money and I'm trying to have sex with him more often to say "thank you" for taking on full financial responsibility. But the same theory, in his mind, applies. If I go out with some friends (which happens once a year, MAYBE). He tells me I don't understand that I need to reward him for taking care of the kids that night. According to him, I owe him.
So, I've sucked it up and pretended for a long time. We have fought again and again because he wants me to initiate. So I do. Then we fight because he comes onto me when extremely drunk, which happens at least 3-4 times a month. My problem with it is he smells bad when drunk, he gets creepy when drunk, he can't keep an erection but makes it go on for 2 hours usually (again with no erection) and it's usually around 1 or 2 am when he starts this. I told him I don't like to have sex with him when he is trashed. Frankly, I don't find him sexy or appealing when he can't stand up straight. And finally, our latest fights have been because he wants me to be into sex for real and he also wants/needs kinky sex. 
I feel like I can't make him happy. But then again, I'm not interested in sex with him because he puts so much damn pressure on it. I have a hard time switching mental gears from super mom to sex kitten. On top of that, I'm always worried he'll lose his erection, start a fight or insist that it's not enough because it needs to be kinkier. 
We are separated for a few weeks due to a death in the family. I have the kids. He'll arrive in a week. He just told me he almost cheated on me the other day with a friend's wife. I feel totally dismayed. We are good partners, in many ways. We laugh, engage in many of the same past times, we both care about health and fitness, we are both super involved parents. We have fun together (sometimes) and we have good parties with good friends. But, this sex issue is driving me up the wall.
Who is right? Do I owe him sex for watching the kids, "letting" me go out and such? My thought is that I shouldn't owe him sex. Sex should be something I want to have with him. Something I enjoy with him. Something we can share together. To me, it's not a commodity that I should use to get what I want from my husband's time. Likening it as such cheapens it for me and really turns me off.
I think we need help. I don't even care who is right and who is wrong. I just want to know what to do.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

I really can't offer any advice except to say that I'm almost in the same boat as you and I truly understand.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CEL (May 7, 2013)

Well you got a dozy of a problem. Who be right is it the wife who does not want to have sex or the husband who NEEDS kinky sex and gropes her when drunk. Sad part is that you both contributed to a screwed up situation let me go through some of the dysfunctions that I see please understand I am not trying to be hurtful it just helps to condense things so that we can all see what is going on.

1: You went though some buppy patches with sex due to some medical conditions you tried to be understanding and help him out but really during this time it was probably all you could to to help yourself, no blame here as when it is medical the spouse is supposed to suspend their needs to take care of you. But he was still resentful of you.

2: After this began the "You owe me sex thing" you went along with this probably because you were tired of the fighting really this was the start of a bad thing at this point you should of said NO I don't owe you. Instead here was the time to read books and maybe counselling when one partner feels they are OWED something you have a problem. Once you gave into this you made it a viable tactic for him.

3: He kept pressuring you as it was a working tactic for him to get sex. Guys are ruthless about sex especially given the past he is going to use whatever he can. Eventually you had enough and figured out that in a relationship no one OWES anyone and to have sex or fake it when you really don't want to is one step from rape. That you don't want to have sex with him means the problem is not sex it is in the relationship itself. Sex is an event not the environment you are missing something in the relationship that is causing a disconnect in the sex thing.

4: He now tells you that he almost cheated on you blame shifting it on you because you are not giving him sex. This is crazy and wrong he is trying a to guilt or scare you into sex.


So who is right or wrong? Both of you. You need counseling as something in the relationship is wrong and because of this you don't want sex. He needs counseling to understand that pressuring your spouse, guilting your spouse and drunken groping your spouse is not acceptable behavior. Now if you cannot afford counseling I would sit down and have a frank discussion write up the topics you want to talk about with bullet points on the major parts of each topic. Tell him this behavior has to stop, you realize he NEEDS sex but using guilt or pressuring tactics are how you treat enemies not those you love. Tell him you want to work on this but you need him to stop with these tactics as it damages your love for him, let him know you understand he was not trying to hurt you but nevertheless that is what is happening. For you, stop having sex that you don't want, part of the problem is every time you do that you lose some of your self respect which makes you resent him the next time he comes calling. The books I like are 5 Languages of Love, His Needs Her Needs these are only starting points if you can afford MC then go but make sure that before you go he at least understand the current thing you have going on it damaging and needs to stop.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

So how many times do you get a girls night for keeping HIS kids for him while he's out of town? And how much money do you get to spend as a thank you putting up with drunk sloppy and disgusting several times a month? And what happens when HIS kids are sick and you are the one sitting up with them, does that qualify for a manicure? Oh, but wait, now your husband early had an affair, I'm sure that's bound to be repaid by a weekend out of town that includes a spa visit and shopping.

Your husband sounds like the biggest a$$hole I've ever heard about who doesn't also slap and or beat his wife and kids! Did you even read what you wrote?

NO! Marriage is not a deal in which services are rendered as payment for services rendered!
1. You stay home to take care of children you BOTH are responsible for.
2. Daddy doesn't get paid to baby sit HIS OWN FREAKIN KIDS!
3. Mom needs to purchase things for herself, for the home, for the kids.Mom doesn't give out BJ's in order to resupply the family or herself.

Good lord woman! Grow a vagina and learn to say NO!

On top of all this misogyny, you H nearly has an affair? Sweetheart, darling, bubbalah, get to a women's group who can support you as you grow a vagina, learn to say NO, and learn to enforce you self worth by enforcing your boundaries.

As far as th kinky sex goes, if it turns you on go for it. If it doesn't do anythingpositive FOR YOU, say N O!


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## goodlookingmom (Jun 1, 2013)

Thanks people. I'm not offended or hurt. But I will say that I do get freakin pissed off when these fights happen. I point out what a jerk he is and he usually agrees and apologizes. 
I agree that we probably need counseling. 
I do enjoy sex sometimes. And it's not that I don't have a sex drive. I do. And when things are "right" I can enjoy sex with my husband. The problem is that if we have a busy week and we only have sex once, he starts to stress about it and it's obvious. But yes, I agree. If I don't want to have sex with him, even if it's 50% of the time; clearly this needs to be addressed.
I went along with having sex whether I wanted it or not because I felt guilty that I was not the sexually exciting woman that I used to be. But the flipside is that he is not the romantic guy he used to be. And further, he spends so much time stressing and valuing himself based on money... I can't be attracted to that. We have less money now, by the way, obviously because I decided to stay home. I don't care how much money we have. I care that we are making the right decision for our kids and that we- as a couple- are happy and healthy. But, he is miserable that we don't have "enough" money. 
Ok. I'll go with the bullet discussion. He knows that he's in the dog house with me, to put it lightly. So none of this will be a surprise. 
Oh and yes, he did admit to resenting me while I was sick. We can meet each other on so many levels, after I FIGHT my point with all of my might. He'll admit to wrongdoings and such. But then we go back to the same patterns. 
If we can do counseling, I will try. Unfortunately, we live overseas. So, it's not a very easy situation.
Thanks.
I would love to hear more opinions and thoughts on the matter.


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## goodlookingmom (Jun 1, 2013)

techmom, please tell me, how are you dealing with this? For how long? I really would like to talk to other people who are dealing with this.....


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

goodlookingmom said:


> techmom, please tell me, how are you dealing with this? For how long? I really would like to talk to other people who are dealing with this.....


How long, all of our married life. I was always LD, didn't have any other partners besides him. Meanwhile, he married me thinking that I was going to be a "swinging from the chandeliers" HD, which was contrary to the evidence presented. He was the love of my life, and I really thought that he was going to unlock this HD inside me. Later I found out that there wasn't one there.

He let himself go over the years, smoking and I lost all attraction for him. Of course he's mad about this, but didn't take heed to my complaints before the sex dropped off. Staying healthy and attractive is very important to me in a marriage, it shows that he cares about how I feel, and that he doesn't take me for granted because I uttered the words "I do" at the altar.

Your hubby sounds like mine because they feel entitled regardless of other factors in the marriage. Someone stated this before, marriage is a living breathing thing you tend to, and people change. Especially over the course of 15-20 years. I love my husband but not in love with him like before. Men don't know that their behavior and attitude in marriage can strain the very thing they value which is the sexual desire. It doesn't last forever, and if you give them duty sex they complain about that too. They want you to want it, not treat it like a 9-5 job.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I'm writing a response to you right now but need some info. 

What % of your joint income did you earn before you quit working.

You said that you started a home based business. What % of your joint income do you earn now?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Oh, and how old are your children?


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## goodlookingmom (Jun 1, 2013)

Our children are 2 and 5 1/2. We both worked at the same place, thus our joint salary went down by half when I stopped working. But he is doing some extra work (with little extra time, maybe 30 extra minutes a week) to pull in some more money. He works hard, no doubt.
My home business doesn't pull in a ton of money. Maybe 5-10%. And I started to write a book, which may (hopefully) be a new avenue of employment for me.
I am by no means a lazy SAHM. I keep myself very fit and slim (maybe that is part of the problem...). 
I'm sure I'm not the perfect wife. But, I feel that we are in a bad place if I am being told I owe sex. Which, by the way, we have usually 2-3 times a week. 
Also, what does my percentage of the income have to do with our sex life? Obviously, everything is somewhat related. But, the fact that I stayed home to take care of our newborn seems a reasonable idea. Getting a nanny for our first born brought me such awful guilt and regret. Sex should have nothing to do with what is best for our kids... 
We make enough money to live well. We live overseas in a country where the cost of living is very low. We are also paying off a land mortgage in the US every month. If that gives you any idea how things financially weighs in.


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## goodlookingmom (Jun 1, 2013)

techmom...
My husband did not let himself go. So I'm lucky there. We are both very physically fit and active. We had a very exciting sex-life pre-marriage. I was the second for him, but he was not for me. 
I think all of this really does stem back to earlier issues of resentment and entitlement. I was sick for two years and he resented me and grew tired of my complaints, my problems and my constant exhaustion. Once he finally admitted that, I felt relieved. But I think I have really held onto his resentment. I look back at that in anger. So maybe that is problem A.
Then, I'd go out to do some shopping. But not to shop. Just to get away. To get time to myself. I didn't want to be around him or anyone else for that matter. So, there was the next problem. He was mad about me just ditching him. And also mad that I wasn't "putting out" later on. He should have discussed it with me head-on though, instead of building up anger against me. 
Sigh.
After reading your story, I see that I probably was a HD. And maybe still am. It's just that, I'm so tired of his versions of rationalizing our relationship. He thinks it's all a science experiment. A triggers B. B only happens after A. You must follow the steps A and B, because studies show this is how things work.... blah blah. Guess that's the other problem. Boring, know-it-all facts. That's all he wants to talk about. I guess we really have gone in different directions....
I'm really sorry techmom. I can't offer any advice. You are right about the entitlement thing. Sex, to him, is totally unrelated to everything else in our days, marriage, relationship, our lives. Sex is a primal need. It has nothing to do with our love for each other. At least, that is the gist I get.
My parents had a miserable marriage and I always tried so hard to ensure I don't follow in their footsteps. Thus, I am trying to "do my best to keep him happy," to keep us happy. But it looks like that was not the right route. 
I'll start on my list tonight. I won't be seeing him until a week anyway....


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> So how many times do you get a girls night for keeping HIS kids for him while he's out of town? And how much money do you get to spend as a thank you putting up with drunk sloppy and disgusting several times a month? And what happens when HIS kids are sick and you are the one sitting up with them, does that qualify for a manicure? Oh, but wait, now your husband early had an affair, I'm sure that's bound to be repaid by a weekend out of town that includes a spa visit and shopping.
> 
> Your husband sounds like the biggest a$$hole I've ever heard about who doesn't also slap and or beat his wife and kids! Did you even read what you wrote?
> 
> ...


:iagree:

I would positively refuse to have sex with a foul smelling drunken man. If he wants to get the physical side of your relationship back on track, he needs to cut out the booze, lose his entitlement minded attitude and get his act together. Only then will you have a hope of getting your sex life back to where it should be.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Some of the best sex we had involved enough alcohol to doze a fraternity... Ah, those were the days. 

Here is a different suggestion to "train" hubby. Offer to have sex after a few (and I mean a few) drinks such that it feels good and relaxing but neither partner is stoned out of his or her faculties. Do your best to have a good time. Then the next day he plans to go out and get drunk remind him how well your way went vs how his usual .25 BAC goes.

This assumes you can tolerate a couple glasses of wine or 2-3 mixed drinks - no more - and make sure you have the good stuff not 2 Buck Chuck. 

That way he can have his cake and eat it too (ok those in the back row be quiet). I am usually not the positive reinforcement type but its worth trying.

Failing this I would have The Talk and express my concerns of the future and all that. But try something like this and see if he is willing to meet you half way.

As for sex for minding his own kids, that is a big no-no. I raised two kids largely on my own and it is a major no no... Try doing more as a family also if you're not doing much, it really brings up the daddy instinct. Other daddy role model friends etc can help too.


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## goodlookingmom (Jun 1, 2013)

John117... thanks for the reply. But you've got it all wrong. Well, sort of wrong.
We both drink a glass of wine a night with dinner. On weekends, more. I'd say we are both big drinkers, but I don't get wasted. I just can't anymore. I can't get over hangovers quickly and I have two kids to take care of the next day. So, we have sex often after a drink or 2 or 3. But I do agree that the benders need to stop. 
Also, we do PLENTY as a family. He is a very involved Dad. We go on family holidays to the beach for every vacation and we go away (usually to Hong Kong) for Christmas. We hike together, play video games, run/bike together, read books, cook, do gardening-- all as a family. Does he spend more time out drinking with buddies late at night than I do? Yes. But we usually start the night out all as a group. We go to child friendly restaurants (in our Asian country, these places always have alcohol) and meet up with other friends with kids. The kids have a blast, the adults smooze. But when it's time for the kids to sleep, I always bring them home. He offers to let me stay out. But I don't want to. I'd rather go home, get a good night of sleep, read to my kids and wake up feeling good, not hung over. So, he stays out and comes home smashed. Not every weekend, but enough for me to tire of it.
We have parties at our home often, with adults and kids. We are both very boisterous and socially active with friends. 
He's a good Dad. More involved than my father was. He was a great partner during childbirth for both of them (natural). We play sports together on the weekend. He's not a drunken deadbeat. He's just got a bad entitlement issue. And does drink to excess too often. 
We have good sex sometimes. I'm just tired of fighting about it when life gets stressful. And I'm tired of feeling like I owe him. This whole "I almost cheated on you" bit is just nuts. I don't deserve it. I've tried hard to remedy our sex-life. But anyway, some of your have made it clear that I need to approach with other tactics...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Thanks for filling the details. It is a bit more difficult to resist the urge to get smashed with male buddies in any culture. If this is the only source of smashing tho would it be safe to discuss with the other wives whose husbands are presumably also getting smashed and compare notes?

What you describe is par for the course where I come from (some place in Europe) but people do not get smashed as often. 

If he is health conscious can you point out the long term implications of alcohol? Or get his doctor to discuss?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

goodlookingmom said:


> Our children are 2 and 5 1/2. We both worked at the same place, thus our joint salary went down by half when I stopped working. But he is doing some extra work (with little extra time, maybe 30 extra minutes a week) to pull in some more money. He works hard, no doubt.
> My home business doesn't pull in a ton of money. Maybe 5-10%. And I started to write a book, which may (hopefully) be a new avenue of employment for me.
> I am by no means a lazy SAHM. I keep myself very fit and slim (maybe that is part of the problem...).
> I'm sure I'm not the perfect wife. But, I feel that we are in a bad place if I am being told I owe sex. Which, by the way, we have usually 2-3 times a week.
> ...


I'll have to reply further tomorrow as I was only able to get back to this just now. 

I asked the percentage of income questions to get some perspective on your h's view of what each of you are contributing as he seems to value income more than anything else.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> You can ONLY control you and your actions.


That is news to a variety of professions, from psychologists to drill sergeants and preschool teachers.

If your partner makes your life miserable and you improve yourself and the situation improves, the more power to you. Some of us in the back of the classroom (the dreaded LD Stage IV partner crowd) may want to consider more, ehem, unconventional approaches.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Men find emotional connection via sex. 

Your husband wanting sex when drunk is him wanting to fill his desire to connect with you, but because he is drunk his good judgement filters are shutdown and he's running on emotional wants, minus the higher thinking that keeps him from acting like a petulant child.

Btw, there is goodness in the fact that when his social filters are removed by the booze, his reaction us to want to connect sexually, and thus emotionally with you. It shows that you are at the very core of his emotional wants.

As for owning him sex for him doing things, yeah that's bull on the surface, BUT I think if you look deeper what he is really trying to say is that fundamentally spouses have a basic responsibility to take care of one another's sexual and emotional needs. And again, men connection and take emotional support via sex.

So it's not that you owe him for him watching the kids, but you each have a responsibility to take care of those needs as they arise. He's just not found the right way to express that thought, and since the you owe me has worked to meet that need from him, he continues to use it.

Some might advise you cut him off and teach him to leave you alone. I think that wouldn't help your marriage, in fact I think it would harm it seriously,

Think about it, he gets his emotional needs to you largely via sex. If you cut off the sex, he gets cut off from emotional bonding with you. That's the path that results in the two of you becoming farther apart and hurts the marriage.


He doesn't need cutting off, but he does need to grow in how he reaches out to you for his sexual and emotional needs. Unfortunately he won't likely do it on his own - you are going to have to help him.

I'd suggest you introduce a new dynamic which will hopefully replace the way he reaches to you. 

First, about the drinking. On nights you think will end up with him drink and horny. Initiate a session, even a quickie earlier in the night. That should give him the emotional connection he is desiring, so when he does get drunk he will already be turn care of. You might even find him drinking far less on such nights, if he's sexually and emotionally content he very well may have less desire for getting drunk,

Now for the you "owe" me stuff.

When he tries that, or you recognize the situation coming together that will result in it, head it off at the pass way ahead. Either initiate sex with him well before, even the night before or let him know when in the next few days you will be looking for him to take care of your sex need. 


You may even want to talk gently to him about how he seems to get a real emotional satisfaction from having sex with you. Not in an accusatory way, but more a gentle pointing it out way. Reassure him that its good and normal , and that you are happy that he loves you so much.


Bottom line - your husbands emotional needs from you are heavily met when he has sex with you, very normal for men. He is clumsy about how he addresses that core need. The great news is his need shows he does have a strong desire and emotional love for you.

Make love not war. Other posters will advise you to go to war with him to stop him. Ask yourself does anyone actually win in such a war? Will your love and connection together get stronger or weaker from the war?


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## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

Shaggy said:


> Men find emotional connection via sex.
> 
> Your husband wanting sex when drunk is him wanting to fill his desire to connect with you, but because he is drunk his good judgement filters are shutdown and he's running on emotional wants, minus the higher thinking that keeps him from acting like a petulant child.
> 
> ...


+1

This thread is quickly going to devolve into a "men vs women" thread, so I urge you to quit paying attention to it now.

@Shaggy has given you some probably the best advice you are likely to get. Take it and run with it.

It seems like in most other respects you have a pretty good marriage. Don't take the advice you will inevitably get about that would lead to blowing it up. Instead, maintain the good parts of your marriage and fix the problems.


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## PreRaphaelite (Dec 15, 2012)

goodlookingmom;2249322
Who is right? Do I owe him sex for watching the kids said:


> No, you don't owe him sex. No, sex is not a commodity.
> 
> Your husband has lost sight of what sex is and I can't advise you how to show him how to get it back.
> 
> ...


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

This is definitely not a men vs woman thread, please don't turn it into one. Try to keep posts constructive and helpful. TIA.

--the management


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Thanks FF!


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

goodlookingmom said:


> Then we fight because he comes onto me when extremely drunk, which happens at least 3-4 times a month. My problem with it is he smells bad when drunk, he gets creepy when drunk, he can't keep an erection but makes it go on for 2 hours usually (again with no erection) and it's usually around 1 or 2 am when he starts this. I told him I don't like to have sex with him when he is trashed. Frankly, I don't find him sexy or appealing when he can't stand up straight.


This is a no-brainer and I am curious whether he has agreed on this.

If I came home drunk my first wife would not even let me sleep in the house. I slept in a shed out back, which was something I agreed on because I didn't drink that often and really disliked being around drunks myself. But after a tournament I would occasionally uncork a doozie and come home smashed out of my mind. I wouldn't even go in the house. I understood how she felt. 

Then I just quit drinking altogether because I didn't like what it did to me. Your husband needs to acknowledge how revolting he is when drunk. If he doesn't, then he has a big problem.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Wiserforit, you are one of the rare husbands who think this way. My hubby will come in the house drunk wanting sex as well, he smells and is repulsive. Who would want that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

"I almost cheated on you"

Do you know this friend or his wife ? It sounds like he stopped himself even if the woman was ready. keep tabs on whoever that is.

Tell him that he cannot threaten to cheat to get more sex from you and to imply it is disgusting. And that two can play this game which can eventually destroy the marriage. He did not do you a great favor by not cheating with her. be very clear on that.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

techmom said:


> I love my husband but not in love with him like before.


O boy.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

OP I know you want to blame everything on your husband but I think CEL was right on this one. Go back read that post. You will get more out if it than just listening to so called LDs pandering.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

techmom said:


> Wiserforit, you are one of the rare husbands who think this way. My hubby will come in the house drunk wanting sex as well, he smells and is repulsive. Who would want that?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No one wants that. But it's much more complicated than this.


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## bbdad (Feb 11, 2013)

I didn't read through all of this, but one thing stands out as a major pet peeve of mine. You do not need to thank him for "watching the kids." He is the father. It is called being a parent. I can't stand men that think they should be rewarded for watching the kids. Hell, I enjoy the times when my wife goes out and me and the kids get time to do whatever we want. There are many divorced families where the dad would be ecstatic to "watch the kids" every night. 

As far as the other issues, I am sure you will get great advice on here.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

I've been in a similar dynamic, but in the role of your husband. Here is my take based on what you've reported.

You had a medical condition that caused you to withdraw from him for a couple of years. Your husband is probably still getting over that. He may understand why you withdrew and even still was hurt by it. Emotions are not logical.

That said, his manner of dealing with his disappointment/hurt is unhealthy and hostile toward you. I personally went down the path of drinking more when my wife withdrew from me. It is self destructive and obviously doesn't help the relationship. 

You should challenge him to see if he can go a month without drinking at all. Tell him you like him much better when he is not drunk and reinforce this with action. Hopefully he will see things improve when he is not drunk and this will stop the cycle. 

You are right that sex should not be a quid pro quo. At the same time, your husband seems to feel that you are not upholding your end of the bargain. Since you now stay home, he seems to view taking care of the children as your job and working outside the home as his job. Anytime he is taking care of the children, he is doing "your job" and expects something extra for it.

This is a misguided view, but on the other hand, do you think that you sufficiently thank him for supporting you financially? Do you think that if you went out of your way to praise him /express gratitude for his financial support that he would feel less put upon to do things around the house? 

My wife is a SAHM and for me personally, it seems that my financial support is expected and never acknowledged, yet it is also assumed that I should help around the house. Obviously, my wife is never going to go to my office and help me out there so at times this feels a bit unbalanced. I do think your husband is out of line on this one-- just trying to give you the opposite perspective.

On the frequency of sex, I think 2-3 times a week sounds great, but it is all relative. If you were having sex much more frequently/energetically in the past, you husband may feel disappointed. there is no easy solution to the frequency issue, it seems.

regarding the "kinkiness" issue, this is harder to understand. unless what he wants to do is physically painful, I've never understood why anything should be off limits between a husband and wife. Not saying there aren't things off limits in my marriage, but it doesn't really make sense to me.


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## goodlookingmom (Jun 1, 2013)

This can be a blanket response, I guess.
I do not think this is a men vs. women thing. At least, that was never my intention. I posted because I GENUINELY want things to get better. And I GENUINELY wanted to know what most married couples do with such matters. I don't talk about our sex life often. I guess it's because I am embarrassed by our problems. 
To answer someone's else's posts... I know my husband is reaching out to me. Whether sober, one drink in or drunk; he is almost always flirtatious with me. I DO reach out to him too. And I do try to make him feel appreciated for being the breadwinner. As I mentioned in my original post- I try to be that SUPER AWESOME wife. I cook great food, plan meaningful activities for all of us as a family, I take care of him (so to speak) with helping him out the door in the morning, ensuring he completes all of his tasks. I compliment him. I take interest in his interests. We laugh together. And again, I have tried to give him more of what he wants in bed. I have ensured we have sex usually 2 times a week. Sometimes it's 1 time. But I really put a good effort into at least twice. I switch it up- in the shower, me on top, from behind, oral stuff, with lingerie. Seriously!? How is this not enough. I am a fit woman. I dress sexy. It's just that sometimes I'm not in the mood. Sometimes I'm tired. Sometimes I want space. And especially, when he's drunk, I want NOTHING to do with him. I have told him that. I explained in every way I could. And he has said "okay, I'll leave you alone when I'm drunk." And mostly he does. 
The problem is that when we talk about how I'm tired of him being miserable, he says that if I just give him kinky, fun sex then he promises to be happy all of the time. While I understand that sex is a very different matter to men than it is to women; there is a huge catch-22 here. He wants me to sincerely want it. But then he expects me to keep giving it- a certain number of times a week and kinkier than we've been experiencing. And further, I agree with everyone here, I should not owe sex for child care. Ok, got it.

Clearly, I need to start getting all of this out in the air. And then maybe we can start to move through this. It goes back a long way, evidently. So, it's going to be a long haul. Thanks for the advice and opinions.


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> So how many times do you get a girls night for keeping HIS kids for him while he's out of town? And how much money do you get to spend as a thank you putting up with drunk sloppy and disgusting several times a month? And what happens when HIS kids are sick and you are the one sitting up with them, does that qualify for a manicure? Oh, but wait, now your husband early had an affair, I'm sure that's bound to be repaid by a weekend out of town that includes a spa visit and shopping.
> 
> Your husband sounds like the biggest a$$hole I've ever heard about who doesn't also slap and or beat his wife and kids! Did you even read what you wrote?
> 
> ...


If I had a Vag I could not have said it better:scratchhead:

AP as always you are the best


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

What you're seeing is that there is a failure of the 'SLA' sex, that is, service level agreement.

The higher desire partner will likely try to bump up the count and correspondingly the lower or equal desire partner will, at some point, decide to go the other way from sheer frustration. It is human nature at its not so finest.

So it is a bit of a chicken and egg problem. If SLA's are established one partner will try to bump up or down. If no SLA's are established, same outcome...

Honest communications are far more important than establishing firm SLA levels 4x a week vs 5x a week.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Goodlookingmom,

I am sorry this thread go so hijacked with gender bashing, because I have lost sight of focusing on your very real pain and confusion. This forum is a safe place to talk about all the things that happen between a husband and wife. 

Drunk and disgusting is not something you ever have to put up with, ever! EVER!

You have kids, you stay home and meet their needs. You have a house, you meet the need of caring for the house. You have a husband, you meet his needs. You cook, clean and offer it up whenever your husband wants it, even if you don't want it. You care and you give and just want everyone to be happy. 

It would be nice if you were happy too. It would be nice if you could be all finished with paying for the PPD even though that wasn't your fault, nor your doing and given the choice you'd rather have root canals on a weekly basis that go through POD, right?

What does your husband do for you? Okay, yes he works, brings in money to pay for the home and the food and the kids and whatever anyone needs. he brings in money so every one can have a life style. But WHat Does He Do For You? What does he do to make you feel loved? What does he do to make you feel safe, secure and cared for? How often does he take you out? How often does he spend quality time with you? How often is he lovingly affectionate?

You say he wants you to initiate. that means he wants to be wanted by you. he has felt left out. Maybe he's off his rocker, maybe he isn't, it is what it is. But how can you FEEL want toward him when the signals you've mentioned here are that he feels entitled, by virtue of bringing in a pay check, that you want to jump his bones. 

You talk about him wanting kinky sex and you're not sure about this. Girl, look at my avatar... I like to get my freak on! But it is not something that can be commanded out of a person. It is not something that is easy to do when the desire for plain old vanilla sex isn't there.

What does he want in terms of kink? How uncomfortable are you with the ideas he is proposing? In a perfect world, if you felt loved, safe, secure and cherished, would his kinky ideas intrigue you, or would they still make you uncomfortable?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

As far as the kids go, the cynic in me would say that I have enjoyed being the primary parent of my girls far more than I enjoyed married life in general. As a cognitive psychologist, the opportunity of observing my kids grow up was invaluable. As a father, teaching them and learning from them was phenomenal (how many girls do you know that are ace video gamers?)

My older one is away in college and we swap 30-50 texts a day compared to 2-5 she does with mom. I know everything that happens, from boys (ugh ) to good grades to fashion. If the OP's hubby sees child care as a hassle to be rewarded, how much will he be missing out on?

When I'm 80 I can look back and honestly say I raised two incredible girls, while mom's contribution was limited to the awesome good looks chromosomes.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Goolookingmom-

My wife and I have been together for 20 years now. She also went through PPD After our daughter was born 9 years ago. It lasted for a couple of years. We had little sex before this but during PPD, it was nil. I had resentments that I still seem to have today. It's getting better.

I think it was mean for him to say he almost cheated on you. It does seem like he is trying to guilt you into sex. I hate to admit it but I've done that myself. Not those words, but close. It didn't help me have more sex with my wife and definitely didn't turn her on. I even threatened to leave because I didn't feel loved.

I drink more than I should, but my wife has never told me to stop. I even started to go to A.A. and my wife thought that was funny. When I know we are going to have sex, I won’t drink as much. I have to know early on though. Alcohol kills my libido. For some very strange reason, I want my LD wife to initiate sex more often and be a little kinky. I get frustrated if she doesn't. I realize that may never really change. 

Why not give him what he wants for one month. For one month…or even for 2 weeks straight have sex every night no matter what. If sex doesn’t equal love to him and its just a need of his give him what he wants. I’ll guarantee by the 5th or 6th night, he will be begging for mercy.

I wanted the same thing from my wife so I became more assertive and she didn’t say no. By night 7, I needed a break . I don’t NEED nearly as much sex as I thought I needed. 

Try it for at least one week. Maybe if he knew he was going to have sex, he wouldn’t get drunk. I can be an idiot sometimes.


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## goodlookingmom (Jun 1, 2013)

I'm going to post this as a separate thread. But I since some of you are keeping with this thread... I want to add this question and see what you folks think.
The lady he "almost cheated on me with" is the wife of a friend. I guess I could say she is my friend too, though I don't know if we'd be friends if my friend didn't marry her. We've known the guy for 10 years. They have a little kid, about 3. We invite them to parties at our place and see them a few times a year. We've attended their son's parties too.
My husband's story is that several of our friends were all drinking together. She started to flirt, but he said she was very subtle and tricky. According to him, she waited till people went to the bathroom or up to the bar to get another drink. She'd start to touch him and rub herself up against him. He claims that he liked the attention and his "guard was down" so he was weak in his response. I don't know full details, but he says he did not pull away or stop it as quickly as he should of. I can only imagine that he let it go on, flirted back, maybe did some rubbing himself. BUT I don't know for sure. They moved their party onwards and my husband opted to walk (which he does often). She joined him. He says she went for a kiss and he said he just stood there "deer in headlights." It was then he realized it had gone too far.
I wrote to another friend who was there about it. She said she didn't see anything. She called the said wife. The wife claimed nothing of the sort happened. This came out to the husband because he approached my husband about it. They were out at a bar (shocker). I pressed my husband to find out what he said to him. He said he wanted to "mitigate damage" and keep the friendship with the husband. Plus, he didn't want to destroy their marriage, as they also have a child. So, he told the husband that they both participated in "harmless drunken flirtations." The husband is fine with it. I asked. He told me that he needs to support his wife and that I should ask the other people who were there. I asked the wife. She ignored me for a week, but finally wrote back that nothing of the sort happened. 
I don't know how to feel or what to do. Initially, I thought that it was my duty to not ruin their family life and get the truth out in the open (whatever the truth actually). But, I am starting to REALLY dislike the situation I am in. Everyone wants me to carry on as if nothing happened. But how do I ignore what my husband said? Further, what's with him giving a different story to the husband? It's similar, for sure. But to me, he said she came on strong. To him, my husband said it was mutual (and no mention of a duet walk with an attempted kiss). I'm so filled with anger at this point- not necessarily because of the botched cheating (which, yes, does piss me off) but because now I have to carry the weight of the lies. I am mad at the wife. But should I be? Was my husband telling the truth to me? Was he overreacting? Am I overreacting? Should I tell the husband the truth? He seems to think nothing happened at all, no thanks to my husband glossing it over.......
Should I be the drama starter or should I just let it all go...????


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Do you think your husband would be able to admit that he was rubbing her leg, or that he kept looking down her shirt, or that he decided to walk back and suggested she walk with him?

I don't fully buy that your husband was completely a recipient of her attention, nor that he was shocked by the kissing.

You are in an untenable situation being asked, once again, to swallow your feelings and let sleeping dogs lie. I think this is where your anger is coming from. Your husband has invalidated you time and again and now there is a group of people also invalidating your thoughts and feelings. It would be so much easier for you to let this incident go if you didn't have this history of being made to always be the one who owes the other. It's unfair and unjust for your husband to ask you to let this go, as far as the OW H is concerned.

Think about it for a few days. I think you will find it a little less compelling by then. In the meantime, focus on your boundaries with your husband.


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## goodlookingmom (Jun 1, 2013)

Yes, he might admit some of these actions to me. But mind you, he was probably trashed. 
I totally agree that I am being placed in an unfair situation. And everyone relies on me to remedy their situations and their problems. To fix their mistakes. And it's BS. 
It is clear that I am already marking the end of my friendship with the couple. Not because I want to, but because I'm not buying it and I am being slightly dismissive of their stories and comments. But I've not been fully honest with either of them yet. I've not told them what my husband has said. It's like I'm holding his secret... for what?? So he doesn't get in trouble with the husband?? BS, I say.
I wanted to get some back-up. Some feelings from random strangers, before I carried on with my thoughts and actions. I think first, I am going to write to my husband about how I feel and how he put me in a terrible position. We are in separate countries right now, btw. There was a death in the family back home. We all flew home, but the kids and I stayed since it's a long and expensive flight. He is back in our country of residence to finish up work for the school year. He'll be here in 5 days. 
Anyway, I am trying to keep up this facade of "everything is ok" so the kids can see him and talk to him via skype. None of this is their fault, obviously. But I don't want him to think that the situation has gone to bed. The situation sucks and it's getting worse for me, while it gets seemingly better for him. As now, I am in contact with the other couple and they don't like what I am thinking or feeling at all....


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I think you should write him a letter. That way his comments and expressions won't shut you down and cause you to say less them helpful things. Just hang onto the letter for 24 hours and then send it. Can't tell you how many Ive written and changed drastically a day later. It just feels too good to let it all out, but it's not always helpful!


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## goodlookingmom (Jun 1, 2013)

Oh Anon Pink. I've had no problem with kinky sex in the past. We've done lots of crazy stuff together. Random public places in various countries around the world. We've done most of everything, to be honest. And we agreed there were some things we didn't care for. Kinky is not really a problem for me, but I have to be really into it and totally absorbed in it. And frankly, when I am engaging in "requisite sex" (as I call it), I'm just not feeling the kink factor. I think one must feel very confident, secure and safe to engage in kinky sex with a partner. Clearly, I don't feel that way. I feel safe. That's not the issue. He doesn't abuse me, don't get that idea. It's just that clearly he is not understanding how a person thinks and feels. When he refers to sex as something that I owe him or something that I must do to ensure he lives a healthy life (regardless of any other factor), I feel used and worthless. That is the problem. I tried to explain, somewhat. Especially after the night I was out with girlfriends. But he didn't see why he should be convinced to do things that are difficult for him, if he is not rewarded in return. What a jerk, right? Ugh. 
The real question for me is has he always been like this and I never saw it? Or is it a new thing? He's such a good person in so many ways. Why so cold when it comes to sex with his wife, especially if she has been trying for years to give him the sex he wants? The fact that I tried shows that I care and I am not being dismissive of his feelings or needs. I'm so tired of giving and giving but not getting any slack in return...


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## goodlookingmom (Jun 1, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I think you should write him a letter. That way his comments and expressions won't shut you down and cause you to say less them helpful things. Just hang onto the letter for 24 hours and then send it. Can't tell you how many Ive written and changed drastically a day later. It just feels too good to let it all out, but it's not always helpful!


Ok. I agree 100%. And I will hold onto it for a day. Now, I need to find the time to write this letter, with two little ones around! Thanks for your help and interest.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Goodlookingmom-

Being that your husband was a little drunk, could it be that his memory is a bit askew? 

I know when women flirt with me, I ”invent” or add things to it to make it sound better than what really happened. In a weird kind of way I will tell my wife about it in hopes that she will desire me more want more sex with me. Could your husband be doing that? You husband probably thought you would never talk about it with anybody.

Sometime I will guilt my wife into sex. Not so much now.

I would tell her I sleep better after sex.

I would say sex helps me be more confident, which helps my business.

I would say sex helps to prevent prostate cancer.

I am sure I said a lot more.

I don’t think you owe him sex to reward him for good behavior. He needs IC

Did you husband have to work to receive affection from his parents when he was growing up? He still may be that child.


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## goodlookingmom (Jun 1, 2013)

Trickster...
My husband actually insisted that I approach one of the other girls there (a close friend of mine) about that night, to see what she thought about it. So, I don't think he never intended on me telling anyone. But it has occurred to me that he has embellished a bit. I just don't know. 
My husband has gone the same route as you, with a million reasons why I should have sex with him. He reads about it adamantly to back up his beliefs and wants. He talks about it constantly, pressuring me and laying guilt trips.. such as "it's too bad you hate sex so much..." or worse "it's so sad you hate me so much and can't stand to be touched by me..."
He thinks he is being funny. He also thinks he is hilarious when he refers to sex as mating or getting laid or getting some or putting out or getting nailed. I've tried to explain that all of his comments, all of his pressure really just makes it worse and makes sex and intimacy feel unnatural and unsexy. But, he thinks he is right. He thinks he is going about it in a rational manner, thus he should be getting what he wants.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

goodlookingmom said:


> Oh Anon Pink. I've had no problem with kinky sex in the past. We've done lots of crazy stuff together. Random public places in various countries around the world. We've done most of everything, to be honest. And we agreed there were some things we didn't care for. Kinky is not really a problem for me, but I have to be really into it and totally absorbed in it. And frankly, when I am engaging in "requisite sex" (as I call it), I'm just not feeling the kink factor. I think one must feel very confident, secure and safe to engage in kinky sex with a partner. Clearly, I don't feel that way. I feel safe. That's not the issue. He doesn't abuse me, don't get that idea. It's just that clearly he is not understanding how a person thinks and feels. When he refers to sex as something that I owe him or something that I must do to ensure he lives a healthy life (regardless of any other factor), I feel used and worthless. That is the problem. I tried to explain, somewhat. Especially after the night I was out with girlfriends. But he didn't see why he should be convinced to do things that are difficult for him, if he is not rewarded in return. What a jerk, right? Ugh.
> The real question for me is has he always been like this and I never saw it? Or is it a new thing? He's such a good person in so many ways. Why so cold when it comes to sex with his wife, especially if she has been trying for years to give him the sex he wants? The fact that I tried shows that I care and I am not being dismissive of his feelings or needs. I'm so tired of giving and giving but not getting any slack in return...


Its probably a little of both. As parenthood and other pressures of life got in the way, you took the rout most women do and he took the rout most men do. You need connection, affection and time to de-stress to get your mind into sex. He needs sex to connect and de-stress. You PPD certainly set this all up perfectly too, but that's not your fault at all.

Keep working at it. I think you've been pretty remarkable how you've made it through PPD and are still having sex with him even when you really don't want it.

He does need to grow up and learn some empathy though...


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Goodlookingmom

I use dry humor all the time. I also think that I am being funny. I don't believe my wife would agree.

I am a wonderful husband. I cook, clean, I'll vacuum, pick up clutter, take our daughter to school, grocery shopping.

What I am trying to figure out is whether I do this because I am a wonderful husband or if I do all of this to get love/affection/intimacy...sex! Sometimes I feel I have to "earn" sex. So, being that I am self employed, If I don't make enough money for the month or as much as I feel I should be making, I haven't earned enough to receive love and sex. I know that is my idiot thinking. 

What I hear myself saying many times is 

"you don't love me"

"You don't desire me"

"you're not attracted to me"

"I don't turn you on"

"you don't ever touch me"

The guilt trip I played on her 7 months ago was that if you don't love me...let me go. I'll stay with a friend. It wasn't exactly them words, but close. I hate that I said that to my wife and its nuts to even be thinking that. I can see that defect in myself though.

Your husband may be somewhat similar.

My wife doesn't respond to my antics. Which make me mad. 

I don't really know if that is how she really feels or if it is my interpretation.


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## goodlookingmom (Jun 1, 2013)

Anon Pink...
I just want to have a successful marriage and a good home-life for my kids. I want all of us to be happy- myself and the hubs included of course.


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## goodlookingmom (Jun 1, 2013)

Trickster...
I can't even begin to guess what is going on in your situation. Obviously, there are so many factors I don't know about. So please, forgive me for asking what may be stupid questions...

Do you dress nice? Do you take care to smell nice and try to impress with your appearance? 
--I ask because my husband smelled for years and still does sometimes. He refused to wear deodorant. He sweats a ton. He eats a lot of spicy food and exercises a lot. And his clothes smell so bad. I think he finally understood that I didn't want to have sex with someone who smelled bad. Also, he doesn't care about what he wears. No interest in it at all. Wears the same clothes for years. The only time he has something new is if someone buys it for him. Not that I care about new outfits all of the time. But he doesn't care about how he dresses, and it shows. It's hard to feel sexy about your partner when going out with someone who is dressed sloppily and purposely dresses with a shock factor in mind. I always try to dress cute and sexy. Not too sexy, but appealing for sure. 

What do you mean by antics? She doesn't respond to your moves in the bedroom? Or your jokes? 
Sounds like you and your wife are in a similar situation to us. What I mean is, there are likely other issues effecting your sex life. But again, I don't know your situation and I certainly don't want to assume anything. 

And by the way, how much money you make has nothing to do with your self worth. Well, at least, it shouldn't The only way that money can determine your self worth or your worthiness to be loved (be made love to) is if you bring that on yourself. Don't go there Trickster. It's an endless road with no happy destination. I know you are beating yourself up because of the lack of affection and sex. I know. But, it can't be about money. If it is, then your wife needs to rearrange her head. 
But again, I don't know your true situation.... just saying... I hate to see men beat themselves up about money. It seems like you are giving into "the system" so to speak. You can't let concepts define your worth.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

goodlookingmom said:


> Anon Pink...
> I just want to have a successful marriage and a good home-life for my kids. I want all of us to be happy- myself and the hubs included of course.


And you will. These things take time to work out.

I had to put my foot down with Mr. Pink after he surprised me at a work event wearing the most horrible outfit. I was utterly humiliated! I TELL him to shower. I tell him to change his clothes, I buy him clothing and tell him to wear it. I tell him what shoes to wear and MAKE him put on cologne. He's a big dumb oaf who thinks men aren't supposed to pay attention to their appearance, but if very happy when I dress him. Whatever it take...

We went out Saturday night and he forgot to put on cologne. I refused to kiss him. I know it sounds stupid but with big dumb oafs like our husbands that's what you have to do. When we got home, he put on the cologne...such a good boy!


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

GLM-

I also work out a lot. I am a chronic sweater....I sweat more than the average person. With my work, I am in close contact with clients, so I usually change my shirt 2-3 times a day. Deodorant doesn't help a whole lot for me. Usually I can smell myself before others can smell me and take care of it. I try to dress nice. Appearance is a huge part of my work. My wife doesn't tell me I smell bad.

I don't by clothes for myself all that much. Although I earn a middle class income, I expect more from myself. I do think I dress better than my wife. 

My wife is overweight, inactive, and is very LD.

My wife likes my new assertive attitude. She responds to me in the bedroom. I just felt like it was "duty" sex. I have blamed her for so many things. I see my part now and I can fix my part at least. No more guilt trips.

There is a book your husband should read.. Married man sex primer. If he is a reader and tells you what he expects from you, this book will tell him what he should expect from himself. he may like the book.


I don't want to HJ your thread but two of my threads are We don't say I love you anymore and "We have sex 3 time a week...what more do you want?"


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

It sounds to me like you have yourself a genuine "Nice Guy". The good news is that you two can solve your problems. However, it is true that you can only control yourself. So he will need to realize how he is contributing to creating the dynamic in your relationship. What is missing is the fact that your husband is not taking the lead and setting the right tone in your relationship. He is acting from an immature perspective, and it is affecting your attraction to him. You can both start by reading No More Mr Nice Guy, by Robert Glover. See how close to the mark it hits. You should read it too Trickster, you sound like you are making progress, this book may help further your progress. The suggestion of Married Mans Sex Life primer was a good one too. That is by Kay Athol. Once you're on a roll, throw in stuff by Brene Brown. (Start by watching her TED talks on YouTube, then get some books. Get some books by John Gottman and work through the excel isles together, rebuild the positive feelings that have eroded. Don't worry, you guys are normal, many many couples are going through the same ordeals. It has happened before, it's happening now, it'll happen again. You have the opportunity to make yourself aware, make conscious choices, and build a better relationship. Or to get to rejection if need be, and move on with honour and integrity should it come to that. Either way,you can still make a better life.


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