# IC and MC have advised me to stop all activity on TAM



## KingwoodKev

Posting, reading, visiting. I brought up how I thought it had helped me with some things and both my IC and our MC told me this is a very dangerous place. They both had the same advice. They said this place was full of a lot of people where things went very badly and they're still very bitter and wouldn't give good advice. They advised me to stick with the pro's. I just thought you guys would like to know that A.) at least these "pro's" have heard of TAM and B.) they don't like it and tell their clients to stay off it.

I'll admit, as I read some of these incredibly sad stories it kind of drudges back up negative feelings in me that I'm trying to work through and it might not be healthy for me to dwell on the sadness.

Of course I don't think you guys are amateurs. You share your own experiences, actions, and results and I appreciate that. I may pop back in but I'm committed to this R so if they suggest I stay off this site then I'll respect that for a month or so.

A quick update. We had a good weekend. Wife and I went to the grocery together for the first time in a couple years. Just little stuff like that, nothing serious, but it was fun. Daughter would not go. She's still too angry. Still, another decent weekend under our belts.


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## jim123

KingwoodKev said:


> Posting, reading, visiting. I brought up how I thought it had helped me with some things and both my IC and our MC told me this is a very dangerous place. They both had the same advice. They said this place was full of a lot of people where things went very badly and they're still very bitter and wouldn't give good advice. They advised me to stick with the pro's. I just thought you guys would like to know that A.) at least these "pro's" have heard of TAM and B.) they don't like it and tell their clients to stay off it.
> 
> I'll admit, as I read some of these incredibly sad stories it kind of drudges back up negative feelings in me that I'm trying to work through and it might not be healthy for me to dwell on the sadness.
> 
> Of course I don't think you guys are amateurs. You share your own experiences, actions, and results and I appreciate that. I may pop back in but I'm committed to this R so if they suggest I stay off this site then I'll respect that for a month or so.
> 
> A quick update. We had a good weekend. Wife and I went to the grocery together for the first time in a couple years. Just little stuff like that, nothing serious, but it was fun. Daughter would not go. She's still too angry. Still, another decent weekend under our belts.


Good luck. However, many MC's and IC's are not trained in dealing with a BH and WW. Please check the background.

A good MC and IC will do what is best for you and that may or may not be R. Too many MC's want you to R not for you but for them so they can say I get a high percentage of M's to R.

Best of luck to you. Please be strong and do what is best for you.


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## lordmayhem

We've seen here time and time again, how many ICs and MCs give terrible advice especially when they advise the BS to rugsweep and allow the WS to get away with their behavior. 

"I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience." - Patrick Henry


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## lordmayhem

jim123 said:


> Good luck. However, many MC's and IC's are not trained in dealing with a BH and WW. Please check the background.
> 
> A good MC and IC will do what is best for you and that may or may not be R. Too many MC's want you to R not for you but for them so they can say I get a high percentage of M's to R.
> 
> Best of luck to you. Please be strong and do what is best for you.


And also for you to keep coming back so they can make their money.


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## KingwoodKev

Trust me I do have some questions about some of the things I'm being told.

The MC told me I can't take a position of moral superiority over her since she cheated and I didn't. She said if I can't change that then she'd advise my wife that R is not going to work and she needs to move on to someone who won't treat her that way. It's weird. She cheats and I'm the bad guy for feeling a tad morally superior to the cheater?

I guess I can kind of see what she's saying. R won't work if I hold it over her. I'm going to have to truly forgive and maybe forget. Forgive I think I can do, but forget? That's a tall order.


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## manticore

It is probably a good adivice if you are already set for R.

See, there are many users like me, I am not bitter from infidelity as I have never been cheated on my life (well not exactly even if I sort of consider a multidater a cheating behaviour masked, it can be debatable), but if you ask users their honest oppinion or if one of your post calls my attention I am gonna answer you, and as I have a 0 tolerance to Reconcilations where the BS was plan B my answer are probably gonna hurt your attemp to R, or are gonna disturb you in the best of the scenarios.

not my intention but in my mind no force in this world is gonna make me agree that any person deserves to live with the burden of being a plan B (even if now after long time of the OM/OW dissaparence the BS is now top priority).

so yes, if you have your mind now settled in R and you are aware of all the circumstances TAM is not probably a good place to you to continue your R program, TAM is a perfect place for BS that are in the first faces of discovering an affair, or are in the process of understanding the whole affair dinamic. is pefect place to learn how to enforce boundaries and how not allow trickle truth or gas lighting, is a perfect place to get encouragement to break vicious cycles realted to infidelity.

But if we are talking specifically of R I would honestly advice you to look for places more amigable to peopke on R as Marriage Builders.

your choice in the end, I hope whatever you do It gives you the peace you deserve


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## Daniel.

Good luck, sounds like you're finally out of the limbo and chose a path. I hope your MC and IC know what they are talking about, just because they have something on their wall doesn't mean they are right. I had 3 wack MCs, first one asked my wife what she did and didn't do that made me had EA, 2nd one asked the then marriage condition and how we created environment that made me prone to affair (he couldn't separate the affair and the problem), 3rd one was way way too soft, huge believer of 'fog'

I don't like this bitterness brand, just because the statement isn't comfortable to hear doesn't mean the poster is bitter, maybe it's just the truth, however harsh.


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## MountainRunner

Only "beta" males go to and listen to counselors. You need to be more "Alpha" and purchase the "Married Mans Sex Life Primer" and all will be right in the world.

*wonders how much money ol' Athol is making peddling his snake oil*


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## lordmayhem

You don't need to forget in order to forgive.


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## Daniel.

KingwoodKev said:


> Trust me I do have some questions about some of the things I'm being told.
> 
> The MC told me I can't take a position of moral superiority over her since she cheated and I didn't. She said if I can't change that then she'd advise my wife that R is not going to work and she needs to move on to someone who won't treat her that way. It's weird. She cheats and I'm the bad guy for feeling a tad morally superior to the cheater?
> 
> I guess I can kind of see what she's saying. R won't work if I hold it over her. I'm going to have to truly forgive and maybe forget. Forgive I think I can do, but forget? That's a tall order.


Aha, first red flag there


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## GusPolinski

KingwoodKev said:


> Posting, reading, visiting. I brought up how I thought it had helped me with some things and *both my IC and our MC told me this is a very dangerous place. They both had the same advice. They said this place was full of a lot of people where things went very badly and they're still very bitter and wouldn't give good advice.* They advised me to stick with the pro's. I just thought you guys would like to know that A.) at least these "pro's" have heard of TAM and B.) they don't like it and tell their clients to stay off it.
> 
> I'll admit, as I read some of these incredibly sad stories it kind of drudges back up negative feelings in me that I'm trying to work through and it might not be healthy for me to dwell on the sadness.
> 
> Of course I don't think you guys are amateurs. You share your own experiences, actions, and results and I appreciate that. I may pop back in but I'm committed to this R so if they suggest I stay off this site then I'll respect that for a month or so.
> 
> A quick update. We had a good weekend. Wife and I went to the grocery together for the first time in a couple years. Just little stuff like that, nothing serious, but it was fun. Daughter would not go. She's still too angry. Still, another decent weekend under our belts.


Well, they're not _completely_ wrong. And, while I'm not really looking to say anything to sway your mind either way, here are a few things to consider...

* Given that you've decided to reconcile w/ your wife, you should pretty much ignore any "advice" given to you that runs counter to that goal. Don't entertain or give into bitter or punitive thoughts, especially from anyone here or on any other site. After all, it's been... what... two years (?) since you were made aware of the affair? I'd imagine that, in the intervening time between then and now, you've entertained pretty much every thought that even the most bitter of BS's here could throw your way. Don't fall prey to it.

* You should, however, keep your eyes and ears open for any and all bulls*t from either your WW or your therapists. None of this "...it's all in the past now, you just need to trust me/her so that we/you can move forward..." bullsh*t; insist that anything and everything that you feel needs to be brought out into the open *IS* brought out into the open. Insist that your WW fully own and be called to account for her bullsh*t.

* No one here has any real, vested interest in the outcome of your marriage. We're detached and impartial (hopefully, anyway) and have a 50,000-ft view. We're not in the trenches w/ you -- we're calling in salvos from a hilltop a mile away. Oh, and also... you don't pay us.

Best of luck to you either way, Kev.


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## larry.gray

Adding to what Gus said: 

Stay out of the threads by the freshly betrayed. Those close to D-day will pour out emotions that will drag you down.


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## GusPolinski

KingwoodKev said:


> Trust me I do have some questions about some of the things I'm being told.
> 
> The MC told me I can't take a position of moral superiority over her since she cheated and I didn't. She said if I can't change that then she'd advise my wife that R is not going to work and she needs to move on to someone who won't treat her that way. It's weird. She cheats and I'm the bad guy for feeling a tad morally superior to the cheater?
> 
> I guess I can kind of see what she's saying. R won't work if I hold it over her. I'm going to have to truly forgive and maybe forget. Forgive I think I can do, but forget? That's a tall order.


There is _some_ truth to what the MC is saying, which -- hopefully -- is that you can't browbeat or disparage your wife at every misstep along the way simply because she chose to engage in an affair. IOW, it's not a "get out of this argument free card" to be used to gain the upper hand in any given argument.

Kev, you _both_ have to heal from this. Given everything that you've written of your wife, I'm of the impression that she truly is filled w/ regret, remorse, and shame as a result of her actions, and reminding her of that at every turn is going to stymie her healing... as well as your own.

And no, you won't forget. You _can't_ forget.

Ever.


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## GusPolinski

MountainRunner said:


> Only "beta" males go to and listen to counselors. You need to be more "Alpha" and purchase the "Married Mans Sex Life Primer" and all will be right in the world.
> 
> *wonders how much money ol' Athol is making peddling his snake oil*


A lot of guys read MMSLP and immediately take offense to the notion that they're "not alpha enough".

The simple fact is that the majority of guys are neither completely alpha nor totally beta, and MMSLP is about achieving and maintaining a sustainable balance that will hopefully be a bit more conducive to a husband maintaining his "manly" status within his marriage.

IOW, be alpha, but don't be a complete d**chebag, dead-from-the-neck-up, lunkhead "bro". At the same time, be beta, but don't be a sniveling, whiny wimp.


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## seasalt

I'll be married 42 years in April and I've never cheated or been cheated upon and have nothing to be bitter about. I prefer to call what I post suggestions rather than advice and I have three for you:

-Make sure you don't allow any blame shifting either in or out of your counselling sessions. Especially by the counselor.

-Let your wife know that any trust you have in her comes from how you feel about her not by anything she says or does. She was only able to destroy that trust and going forward it can't initially be the same as it was prior to your discovery of her betrayal.

-Finally, the most important in my estimation, don't allow anyone, your wife, yourself or a counselor to minimize or direct your daughter's feelings. She needs a healthy relationship with her mother but not one that gives her an outlook that will possibly allow her to accept cheating either by herself or a future partner.

I've said my piece except for suggesting that no matter where you get your input you should always sort through it for what is best for you and yours.

I guess that makes four suggestions.

Good luck,

Seasalt


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## Daniel.

Has your wife ever apologized to her friend, the OMW ?


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## NextTimeAround

lordmayhem said:


> You don't need to forget in order to forgive.


Andyou don't need to forgive to be able to get on with your life.


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## manfromlamancha

KingwoodKev, you need to do what you think is right for you. But a word of warning - I had looked around and I found that most counsellors were badly qualified to advise on infidelity, mind movies, gas lighting, trickle truthing, cake eating, the difference between being responsible for marital problems and cheating etc. I even found that most other forums were pathetic in the advice they were giving.

Yes TAM can be the most intense and sometimes the most brutal, but it has time and time again proven to be most correct (and FAST) in predicting stuff, getting to the bottom of stuff and coming up with advice on what to do. I learned a lot by lurking here for a bit before joining up and now no other forum will do.

Yes there will be a lot of bitterness because of personal experiences but that is not always a bad thing. I do understand, however, that if you are trying to reconcile, sometimes the negativity can be a downer.

However, this advice:



KingwoodKev said:


> Trust me I do have some questions about some of the things I'm being told.
> 
> *The MC told me I can't take a position of moral superiority over her since she cheated and I didn't. She said if I can't change that then she'd advise my wife that R is not going to work and she needs to move on to someone who won't treat her that way.* It's weird. She cheats and I'm the bad guy for feeling a tad morally superior to the cheater?
> 
> I guess I can kind of see what she's saying. R won't work if I hold it over her. I'm going to have to truly forgive and maybe forget. Forgive I think I can do, but forget? That's a tall order.


is full of [email protected]!!! And I would tell the counsellor to go fvck herself! I agree that she needs to tell your wife that R is not going to work but it should be because she is not showing any remorse or empathy and that she (the counsellor) doesn't have a clue as to what she is doing.

So take care and I really hope you get what you want out of this (providing you know what you want).


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## Hope12345

KingwoodKev said:


> The MC told me I can't take a position of moral superiority over her since she cheated and I didn't. She said if I can't change that then she'd advise my wife that R is not going to work and she needs to move on to someone who won't treat her that way. It's weird. She cheats and I'm the bad guy for feeling a tad morally superior to the cheater?


Our MC told us this very same thing......and I fired her after that session. Just a bit too soon for me to be told how I can and can't feel about what she did, or if that R is going to work or not. I would seriously consider shopping around for another MC. Tired of hearing how affairs are symptoms of marital problems and the problems, not the affair, should be the focus. 
Two problems with that theory is the affair, or in my case affairs, are sometimes the result of a character flaw/personality disorder and focusing on the other marital issues does nothing. I will admit though in this case MC may not be the best path anyway....as we are finding....but I digress.
The second problem with just focusing on the marital issues and treating the affair as a mere symptom is the affair has had a significant emotional effect on the BS that most MC are not capable of relating to. They don't understand the BS may not be willing to look at the other issues until significant understanding and resolution is made with the affair. If your family car needs repairs, as all cars do from time to time, such as new exhaust, new brakes, etc., but then your WS got drunk and drives it into a tree, you don't focus on the smaller repairs unless you are sure the car is salvageable following the crash. And you don't tell me I can not take a moral high ground, for a moment, because immoral behavior that led to the car hitting the tree.

Great! Now I am going to work angry. Maybe I should stay off this site too.


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## arbitrator

lordmayhem said:


> You don't need to forget in order to forgive.


*Amen, Lordmayhem! 

And to quote George Satayana, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it!"

Kev: I absolutely used to love my and my rich, skanky XW's MC; that is, up until the point that I realized that the counselor was slickly and covertly siding with my XW, all while greatly perpetuating her primary goal, which was to always regularly stop our two-hour appointment with her some 20 minutes early, in order to give us ample time to write out that $140 check, then quickly open up the office door to fastly usher us out with a richly placating "See you guys again in two weeks!" And all without losing a breath of air, heartily greet the next couple waiting on them with, "Go on in and make yourself comfy, I'll be back in just a minute!"

True to form, for the personal counselors and all too often, "It's all about the money!" ~ their money, I might add! She only sees TAM as a budget-buster!

Kev: You can do as your MC so requests, but IMHO, she only fears TAM because she knows that you will hear the voice of experience here, unilaterally making up your own mind about how to handle things, thus summarily knocking a dent into her projected weekly cash flow! She doesn't want to hear about TAM because it represents a "check and balance" against whatever psychological "poppyc0ck advice" for you that might come to emanate from her mouth!

Come back often to your TAM Family here, and let us know how things are going for you. That way, we can, at least, give you some semblence of letting you know if you are truly getting the bang for your buck over there ~ or if you are just getting "banged" ~ all without the benefit of ever being kissed!*


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## still so sad

Personally, TAM has helped me tremendously. I wish I had found it much much sooner.

I echo the thought about trying to stay away from " fresh discovery stories" at this point in your R. Once you are more secure in your R then you can go back and offer some big brother advice to the newbies. You just arent in the right phase of your own situation to do that now.

Stay on TAM if it feels helpful to you, just try to filter what you read right now.

I find that no one understands what a BS feels better than another BS. Thats why I turn to TAM as "added therapy"

Best of luck to you in your R.


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## Chaparral

Have you googled your counselors for reviews?

We have seen many incompetent counselors here. Do not hesitate to change counselors until you get one that clicks. Why a female counselor?

Does your IC have PTSD training?


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## IIJokerII

Well Kev experience will always trump knowledge any day. I would be far more willing to listen to a seasoned veteran of any kind of experience; war, music, auto mechanic, relationship, etc, vs someone who read it from a book or has a "Growth" chart on how couples should act or where they should be in situations like this as well as others. 

So ask you IC/MC these questions;

Are they married and if so have they ever experienced something like this and what would they do to deal with the situation.

IF they are Divorced ask why, politely of course. This is not to say that any reason they got Divorced is a sign of ineptitude but it is hard to follow someone's advice who also failed....although failure does teach us some powerful lessons to learn.

Are they, in fact, from the same office..If so, please think about that for a bit. 2 people whom work for the same office who do provide a service want you to ignore the "Wash out's" and focus on them. 

This place can be depressing, and is in many ways all too painful, but I find the constant advice here a reminder of what I went thru and by talking about it here it prevents me from forgetting this and making the same mistake in the future when that day comes. 

And the TAM people here are right. You have a right to feel the way you feel, emotions are not something we can control, only govern in our acting out from them. There is nothing wrong with wanting to R and given it is your choice it should be respected by us and anyone else, most importantly your wife.


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## G.J.

KingwoodKev said:


> Ill admit, as I read some of these incredibly sad stories it kind of
> A quick update. We had a good weekend. Wife and I went to the grocery together for the first time in a couple years. Just little stuff like that, nothing serious, but it was fun. Daughter would not go. She's still too angry. Still, another decent weekend under our belts.


Kev its really sounds as though things are going better at the moment than I would have thought and I'm really happy for you both
Just remember from time to time things will happen and you will question your decision BUT the pain should fade in time hopefully, never go completely but become a lot more bearable


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## Blossom Leigh

If accountability for your wifes choice to have an affair to cope is non existent with these counselors do not leave TAM. If they are justifying her choice to do that in any way, do not leave TAM.


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## Hardtohandle

I've had bad therapist.. Only after switching was I able to compare though.. 

This is why I always say pick 3 therapist and go to them to test them out, pick the best out of those 3 and then pick up another 2 and compare again.. It is a big pain in the a$$ doing it but it is only to help you out in the end..

As far as TAM...

Yes there are some messed up people here.. I usually don't listen to anyone who would tell me all woman are fvcked up in a post.. 

Sadly for some TAM is their only form of therapy.. Look my older brother didn't have anything including TAM.. He just never looked online for help.. He is a bitter man.. He was always bitter about life in general but now he is even a bigger bitter douche.. 

And as you know it is not one size fits all with this advice.. 

Some people also don't want to see their own faults as well, which another part of this issue.. 

I do agree that you can't beat her up forever, but you are allowed to feel hurt by it and you're allowed to express it.


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## naiveonedave

MountainRunner said:


> Only "beta" males go to and listen to counselors. You need to be more "Alpha" and purchase the "Married Mans Sex Life Primer" and all will be right in the world.
> 
> *wonders how much money ol' Athol is making peddling his snake oil*


wow, apparently you never read the book.... Worked wonders for me. Most men in the Western world were taught to not be men and need this type of advice. Athol teaches a balance of Alpha and Beta, not to be a d*ck.


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## Forest

I can see what they are saying. (the IC/MC) There is some logic and strategy behind it.

They have a goal. A job to do, and you are paying them good money to get something done. They have to get you back functioning, and participating in your marriage, if it seems possible, and advisable. If your wife seems to be properly invested, they need to get you to accept what's happened, not dwell on things, and be brooding all the time.

They've got a point.


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## happy as a clam

KingwoodKev said:


> ...both my IC and our MC told me *this is a very dangerous place.* They both had the same advice. They said this place was full of a lot of people where things went very badly and they're still very bitter and *wouldn't give good advice.* They advised me to *stick with the pro's. * I just thought you guys would like to know that A.) at least these "pro's" have heard of TAM and B.) *they don't like it and tell their clients to stay off it.*


This kind of "blanket statement" is, in fact, dangerous. Who are they to assume that everyone here is bitter, angry, and full of bad advice?

I agree with the others... if your mind is set on R, then it's best to avoid receiving lots of potentially conflicting advice and suggestions. Too many "cooks in the kitchen" kind of thing.

But just a thought... statements like the ones bolded above would set off all kinds of alarm bells in my mind.

Best of luck Kev. I wish you the very best.


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## Fitnessfan

KingwoodKev said:


> Posting, reading, visiting. I brought up how I thought it had helped me with some things and both *my IC and our MC told me this is a very dangerous place. They both had the same advice. They said this place was full of a lot of people where things went very badly and they're still very bitter and wouldn't give good advice.* They advised me to stick with the pro's. I just thought you guys would like to know that A.) at least these "pro's" have heard of TAM and B.) they don't like it and tell their clients to stay off it.
> 
> I'll admit, as I read some of these incredibly sad stories it kind of drudges back up negative feelings in me that I'm trying to work through and it might not be healthy for me to dwell on the sadness.
> 
> Of course I don't think you guys are amateurs. You share your own experiences, actions, and results and I appreciate that. I may pop back in but I'm committed to this R so if they suggest I stay off this site then I'll respect that for a month or so.
> 
> A quick update. We had a good weekend. Wife and I went to the grocery together for the first time in a couple years. Just little stuff like that, nothing serious, but it was fun. Daughter would not go. She's still too angry. Still, another decent weekend under our belts.


I think they are correct. Good luck...I truly hope everything works out in your reconcilation and with your daughter as well.


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## IIJokerII

Forest said:


> I can see what they are saying. (the IC/MC) There is some logic and strategy behind it.
> 
> They have a goal. A job to do, and you are paying them good money to get something done. They have to get you back functioning, and participating in your marriage, if it seems possible, and advisable. If your wife seems to be properly invested, they need to get you to accept what's happened, not dwell on things, and be brooding all the time.
> 
> They've got a point.


 To get him back to a functioning state of mind he first must attain closure by dealing with this problem, and the only way to do so it do work with the person who introduced the turmoil to begin with; his Wife. 

Yes, they do have a goal, it is called providing a service for a fee. If Kev is here he is silently dissatisfied with his MC and IC and the logistical part of his brain is demanding him to seek another opinion as the ones he gets now do not satisfy his peace of mind nor calm his anxiety. He can accept what has happened and in time move on from it. However what Kev seems to be dealing with is his Wife not dealing with it nor the MC/IC's pushing for her to own it. They seem to be suggesting that this be let go. That is ill advisable, also known as rug sweeping.

And remember, this place Is riddled with people who rugged swept the whole mess only for it to resurface months or years later. Sure, Kev may suck in his marriage or he may not, but infidelity is not the means to fix a problem, but simply make them all more amplified. We are here to help him, others and ourselves, Shepard our way across the dark place called infidelity and do so in most cases with our eyes closed. TAM, and to be fair other places as well, offers a sight, current, hind and most importantly foresight, to what one deals with during a crisis such as this. And since cheaters all follow the same script to near uncanny verbatim then Kev has every right to see the other side of the coin in lieu of his therapists opinion or suggestion, however contrasting the views may be. By them trying to dissuade him from seeking an outside opinion of any merit speaks volumes.


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## Zouz

good luck kev ,
i think it would be wise to detach from everything ,while in R I even freezed my FB,and social media ; and even TAM.

the reason is not that TAM is not helpfull for you at this timing ...
it is because now you arte vulnrable ...

in my case , it R work well; but defintely not bec of Tam ...


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## turnera

KingwoodKev said:


> Trust me I do have some questions about some of the things I'm being told.
> 
> The MC told me I can't take a position of moral superiority over her since she cheated and I didn't. She said if I can't change that then she'd advise my wife that R is not going to work and she needs to move on to someone who won't treat her that way. It's weird. She cheats and I'm the bad guy for feeling a tad morally superior to the cheater?
> 
> I guess I can kind of see what she's saying. R won't work if I hold it over her. I'm going to have to truly forgive and maybe forget. Forgive I think I can do, but forget? That's a tall order.


meh, that's the same thing we've been telling you - you have to get rid of the anger to give R a chance. I suggest you tell the MC a little more about the advice you were given. Maybe you can help HER be a better therapist.


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## convert

some of these counselors are so bad you need two of them------One to sh!t on and one to cover it up


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## sinnister

Would you advise your clients to check free internet forums that actually may give you better and more qualified advice than they could, all the while taking money out of their own bank accounts?

Always remember that these people are doing a job. They are not personally vested in a favorable outcome for you in any way. Even though it may seem that way.


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## Amplexor

From my perspective, I received a lot more useful advice from TAM than I did from our MC. As stated by many above, she never addressed my wife's EA. It was brought up in the first session then went off the radar. She did do some positive things in guiding us to reconnect but the core issue in my mind was never addressed. TAM allowed me to strike a balance in our recovery. It fit my style, my situation and it's impact on my wife.

In my years participating here I've seen the forum ebb and flow from hard line to very passive. I've seen incredibly insightful and sound advice and horribly shallow and damaging. You'll need to sort through the advice given to you here and at your therapists. You have to separate the wheat from the chafe no matter where you are getting the advice.


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## NextTimeAround

I had a counsellor once as well whoo pooh poohed any third party method / way of thinking.

I think that this is their method of control. God forbid that they might lose a "client" to someone else's way of thinking.

Also, OP this stuff has been discussed before. Many counsellors/ therapists / whatever you call that trade are beholden to certain standards to maintain their certification.

God forbid that they should encourage you to snoop. Even though people do it all the time. My parents snooped on me. Even today, if any mail should still come to my mother's address, she has no problem handing it to me opened already.

AND she says she doesn't need therapy. So this one person (among many) that the therapist will never be able to influence.

OP, I also think that you should consider getting your own counsellor. If you two move on to divorce, would you share lawyers.

Even in France, the country known for love and romance, if you want to get married there and one or both members of the marriage couple is not a native French speaker, then you are are reuired to have SEPARATE translators.


----------



## turnera

It does bother me, though, that you would allow these two people to dictate what YOU do with your life, after what you've had to put up with. What are they telling your WIFE to give up?


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## drifting on

KingwoodKev 

Yeah, my MC said the same thing. So I told her I quit coming here. During therapy my WW lied, strategy from TAM got me my confession. MC gives tools to use to get your marriage back on track. My MC is very book smart, she has also been cheated on, so she knew how I felt. Therapist is actually very good but I'm still here. People who have gone through this are the best reference material you can find. They give you different views you didn't see or knew of. This is something a therapist can't give you. Besides I went to one therapist when I was suicidal who began talking about monkeys and dinosaurs!!! What does a monkey have to do with wanting to kill yourself? Oh well, at least I only wasted one hour that day. 

KingwoodKev you need to do what you feel is correct. I'm sure you aren't living by what TAM says but using bits and pieces that apply to your situation. I do that with my therapist, she's good but I don't agree with everything she says. Follow your mind and gut and you will do fine. Use what your therapists say and if you stay at TAM choose what you want from here also. Hope things keep getting better for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## KingwoodKev

turnera said:


> It does bother me, though, that you would allow these two people to dictate what YOU do with your life, after what you've had to put up with. What are they telling your WIFE to give up?


They're not telling her that. See? You guys keep pulling me back in.  Actually I think I'll stay on TAM but follow the advice not to get caught up in any threads where infidelity is at its worst point. I'll admit that those keep bringing up feelings in me that I'm trying to move past.

Anyway, our MC told me I can't act morally superior to her and keep acting like she's a horrible person. She said if I really want to R why would I want to get back together with someone I consider a horrible person? That was kind of risky because some people might say "h'uh, you're right, why would I do that?" and then get up and walk out. I didn't. I know I have to let it go. Of course there will be very strict boundaries and major lack of trust issues with me and my wife says she totally understands that and accepts it.

I just don't like being told, when it's my turn to talk about how I feel, to try not to come from a judgmental or morally superior standpoint. It's upsetting to me that when that happens I'm made to feel like I'm in the wrong and not the person who cheated.


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## turnera

Hey, Kev, you can tell your therapists for me that my H has never cheated on me, I'm not bitter, I have LOTS of great advice, tons of people thank me for helping them, and I regularly encourage people to get IC/MC. 

Oh, and I live where you do, and if you want me to, I will talk to them and vouch for TAM.


----------



## turnera

KingwoodKev said:


> I just don't like being told, when it's my turn to talk about how I feel, to try not to come from a judgmental or morally superior standpoint. It's upsetting to me that when that happens I'm made to feel like I'm in the wrong and not the person who cheated.


"IC/MC, I am not acting or thinking morally superior to her. I am acting and thinking as someone who's had his whole world turned upside down by the one person I trusted the most. It has created a deep need in me to be able to find a way to trust that person again. Fix THAT for me. I am just now able to even consider giving her a second chance, I have been THAT hurt. If someone gunned down your dog who you've loved for 10 years, can you honestly tell me you wouldn't have a judgment about that person? You'd just say 'oh what a shame, you shouldn't have done that, shall we go out for lunch now?' No. You'd protect yourself and any other dogs you have from that person until they can show WHY they did it and HOW they've learned to never do it again. That is why I'm here - for you to help me understand how she can get me to trust her again."


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## wmn1

Per Kingwood Kev: Trust me I do have some questions about some of the things I'm being told.

The MC told me I can't take a position of moral superiority over her since she cheated and I didn't. She said if I can't change that then she'd advise my wife that R is not going to work and she needs to move on to someone who won't treat her that way. It's weird. She cheats and I'm the bad guy for feeling a tad morally superior to the cheater?

I guess I can kind of see what she's saying. R won't work if I hold it over her. I'm going to have to truly forgive and maybe forget. Forgive I think I can do, but forget? That's a tall order. 



Per Me: I agree with Lordmayhem, some of these MC have little experience with infidelity. I hear horror story after horror story of some of the things they suggest. This lady making you out to be the bad guy for not being able to forget about your wife's affair is like trying to take the human out of a human. Did this MC drill your wife or 'get to the bottom' of her critically harsh betrayal of you ? Too many MC's try full blast to get couples to R, even if they have to do some blameshifting themselves. For her to make you look like the bad guy is a red flag, at least to me, and maybe you should change MCs. Having a negative opinion of TAM is one thing, but being rope a doped into believing that you are the bad guy is to me professional misconduct.

if you are ever under the gun from this lady, change MC's or stop going. Your wife coming out of this with a watered down view of how wrong she was will not serve you well. That doesn't mean make her life he11 but there is a moral superiority that you stillhold and it's one of the things that keeps your W remorseful


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## happy as a clam

turnera said:


> Hey, Kev, you can tell your therapists for me that my H has never cheated on me, I'm not bitter, I have LOTS of great advice, tons of people thank me for helping them, and I regularly encourage people to get IC/MC.
> 
> Oh, and I live where you do, and if you want me to, I will talk to them and vouch for TAM.


Love this!!!

I'm in the same situation as turnera, Kev... no infidelity, no betrayal. But I have LOADS of common sense, and I KNOW when I'm being sold a load of bunk.

Investigate the backgrounds of these self-proclaimed "pros"... often times, the only thing "professional" about them is some letters after their name.

Inept marriage counselors did NOTHING to save my marriage. They only fueled the fire and paved the way more quickly to divorce. If I had found the "right" one, maybe my marriage could have been salvaged.

*My advice: Shop around.*


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## KingwoodKev

turnera said:


> Hey, Kev, you can tell your therapists for me that my H has never cheated on me, I'm not bitter, I have LOTS of great advice, tons of people thank me for helping them, and I regularly encourage people to get IC/MC.


I do think they were both painting with too broad a brush. I'm smart enough to know the difference, when I read responses (and I read them all), between people who are being objective and positive vs projecting the feelings they felt when they were betrayed and coming from a place of bitterness and pain. I feel sorry for those people because I know that pain but I wouldn't take their advice. I tell them that if I hadn't come here looking for advice/answers I probably wouldn't have started the R. I was able to get past some horrible pain/bitterness in just a few weeks being here and talking to people who have been exactly where I was. To me it was the best therapy I've ever had and isn't that the most important thing?

I have promised myself not to get into the threads where horrible things are going on right now and people are completely distraught and possibly suicidal. I've been to that place and I don't want to be reminded of it right now because I know that I'm still on somewhat unstable ground myself.

I do feel really bad when I read things like the guy's thread who has a wife with a male running partner and they share texts, phone calls, and emails. I'd love to help him save his marriage because I see him being passive and giving himself a front row seat to watching the whole thing come to an end.

I never really cared much when people's marriages ended. That's all changed now. It's a horrific thing when that happens unless it's because of abuse. If it's really bad then get out, no questions asked. If it ends when there was still love on both sides then that's absolutely tragic. So tragic to me that I'd love to get out of software engineering and do something related to this field.

At first I thought I'd like to be a PI and bust WS's because they disgust me. Now I'm simmering down a bit and would rather do something more positive like help people save marriages when there is still love. As John Lennon brilliantly said, "All you need is love."


----------



## TRy

KingwoodKev said:


> The MC told me I can't take a position of moral superiority over her since she cheated and I didn't. She said if I can't change that then she'd advise my wife that R is not going to work and she needs to move on to someone who won't treat her that way. It's weird. She cheats and I'm the bad guy for feeling a tad morally superior to the cheater


Wow, just wow!! Your MC is telling you to rug sweep. You are suppose to suppress your feelings as if your feelings do not matter and only the feelings of your cheating wife matters. This is such bad advice, no wonder she does not want you on this site, because she knows that we would call her out on this. Not all MC's would be giving you such advice. There are many good ones out there. You need to see a different MC. One that has proven experience in infidelity.


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## KingwoodKev

TRy said:


> Wow, just wow!! Your MC is telling you to rug sweep. You are suppose to suppress your feelings as if your feelings do not matter and only the feelings of your cheating wife matters. This is such bad advice, no wonder she does not want you on this site, because she knows that we would call her out on this. Not all MC's would be giving you such advice. There are many good ones out there. You need to see a different MC. One that has proven experience in infidelity.


I've noticed a common trait with therapists is that they feel the cheater is in a much worse mental state than the loyal partner so they feel their feelings and issues are paramount to the loyal partner's (my) feelings.


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## toonaive

lordmayhem said:


> We've seen here time and time again, how many ICs and MCs give terrible advice especially when they advise the BS to rugsweep and allow the WS to get away with their behavior.
> 
> "I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience." - Patrick Henry



This is exactly the advise I followed in 2005. By 2011, WW was back in full cheating mode again. Im doing things very differently this time around. IC's and MC's success rates are very skewed when you consider what the long term is. I will bet that their 10+ years success rates go downhill very quickly with this kind of advise.


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## G.J.

wmn1 said:


> The MC told me I can't take a position of moral superiority over
> I guess I can kind of see what she's saying. R won't work if I hold it over her. I'm going to have to truly forgive and maybe
> if you are ever under the gun from this lady, change MC's or stop going. *Your wife coming out of this with a watered down view of how wrong she was will not serve you well*. That doesn't mean make her life he11


The bolded text is a must

Great point *wmn1*


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## happyman64

Kev

You are a smart guy.

You obviously love your wife very much.

Your wife has obviously learned a very tough lesson in life.

Keep food shopping together. Do what feels right for both of you.

And be a model example to your daughter that two people that love each other can learn to respect each other and their marriage again.

Show your kids what forgiveness really looks like.

Good Luck

HM


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## arbitrator

KingwoodKev said:


> I've noticed a common trait with therapists is that they feel the cheater is in a much worse mental state than the loyal partner so they feel their feelings and issues are paramount to the loyal partner's (my) feelings.


* I'm just wondering exactly what those therapists are basing their opinions on, Kev!*


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## vellocet

KingwoodKev said:


> The MC told me I can't take a position of moral superiority over her since she cheated and I didn't. She said if I can't change that then she'd advise my wife that R is not going to work and she needs to move on to someone *who won't treat her that way*.


Ok, I have a question to that......what?




> It's weird. She cheats and I'm the bad guy for feeling a tad morally superior to the cheater?



Yup, which is why I think counseling is a load of crap. Sounds like the MC is going to get you to wrap yourself around your wife's finger. She cheats, and gets an MC to emotionally extort you. Nice, real nice.

Tell me, what did the MC say that your wife needs to do?




> I guess I can kind of see what she's saying. R won't work if I hold it over her.


That is correct. But here is the problem I have. What is it that your wife has to do according to the MC? Did the MC say that if she doesn't step up that YOU should move on to someone that won't treat YOU that way?




> I'm going to have to truly forgive and maybe forget. Forgive I think I can do, but forget? That's a tall order.


You won't forget. You can only come to a point in your life where the thoughts don't consume you.

And even though, if you are to R, you can't hold hit over her head, you are allowed to be angry about this for a while and yes, hold it over her head.....*for a while*, not forever. Its going to take time.
MC seems to think that you can just switch that sh!t off. I see a "you need to just get over it" ambush going on here.

Seems the MC is on her side. So if you want to keep this MC, then you are going to have to be the bad guy.


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## wmn1

let me clarify one thing. I feel your MC is wrong because she is actively shielding your WW from her actions. Yes, it is correct that you shouldn't use the affair to beat her over the head throughout counseling if intending to R and I don't feel you were doing that. Also, some of it has to be let go to an extent if you are to be successful. However, no counselor should take the person who suffered as a result of the affair but is now trying to R (and your W is lucky you are doing this)and say in front of them that the WW should move on if the BS has a hard time overcoming what happened. It tells me your MC has no experience in dealing with infidelity and I would ask them for their qualifications or change MCs 

That doesn't mean it


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## michzz

OK, here is the thing. If you didn't cheat, you do have moral superiority over your cheating spouse--period.

However, you lose that moral superiority if you constantly browbeat her about the affair(s).

If you want constructive restoration of your marriage with your spouse, you have to find a way to reconnect positively.

What won't work is if your cheating spouse is blameshifting or defiant about the affair.

There has to be true remorse and humility and 10,000 apologies kind of attitude pouring out of a spouse who wants to reconcile after they've screwed up so badly.

That will only happen if you don't hammer hit their head at every breath.

And you can't constantly circle back to the affair from random conversations.

You do not have to be smug about that moral superiority, but you do possess if you stayed true to your marriage.


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## turnera

Kev, are you expressing a lot of anger in your sessions? Is that why they're saying this? If so, maybe it's not time yet to deal with R, but rather you need more time in IC to get past it.


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## warlock07

KingwoodKev said:


> Trust me I do have some questions about some of the things I'm being told.
> 
> The MC told me I can't take a position of moral superiority over her since she cheated and I didn't. She said if I can't change that then she'd advise my wife that R is not going to work and she needs to move on to someone who won't treat her that way. It's weird. She cheats and I'm the bad guy for feeling a tad morally superior to the cheater?
> 
> I guess I can kind of see what she's saying. R won't work if I hold it over her. I'm going to have to truly forgive and maybe forget. Forgive I think I can do, but forget? That's a tall order.


change you MC regardless of your/her views on TAM. Sounds like one of those "Women always victim/can't do no wrong" type...


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## ConanHub

Your MC is a God damn moron. Please convey my thoughts as one MC to another.


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## vellocet

turnera said:


> Kev, are you expressing a lot of anger in your sessions? Is that why they're saying this? If so, maybe it's not time yet to deal with R, but rather you need more time in IC to get past it.


Or he needs a counselor that isn't trying to help her get back her plan B by making him the bad guy.


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## michzz

Some MC's treat their therapy the same way Weight Watchers treats their frozen dinners.

If you try to eat anything else, you won't lose weight.


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## MajorOak

KingwoodKev said:


> I've noticed a common trait with therapists is that they feel the cheater is in a *much worse *mental state than the loyal partner so they feel their feelings and issues are paramount to the loyal partner's (my) feelings.


I happen to agree to this comment Kev, when my wife had her EA I couldn't help but feel sorry for her as her whole being was consumed by her new chemical behaviour. 
I don't believe there is any bitterness in TAM, just experience. I'm certain the MC's troll these forums and learn and feed off the experiences of other members.

I have read my exact situation a dozen times on this forum posted by other members. 

The biggest threat to R is not the WS but you, you may not realize it now kev, you have changed, changed a lot.


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## happy as a clam

ConanHub said:


> Your MC is a God damn moron. Please convey my thoughts as one MC to another.


CH... love ya', Man! Only YOU can cut to the chase what I (and others) are tap-dancing around. *YOU ARE a MC* and you can smell bullish*t a mile away.

Kev... in the words of ConanHub... *Your MC is a God D*mn Moron!!!"*


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## happy as a clam

Sorry, but it had to be said...


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## Alpine

Kev,

I am glad to see you will be staying at TAM for now. You have been getting a good deal of excellent advice and perspective here. I see TAM partly as a tool. Use that tool as you see it fitting best for you and your situation. 

In my profession there has always been no shortage of people proclaiming the “right” way, or the “best” way, of doing things. A lot of tools that arose over the years were “amazing” and “revolutionary”, only to become trite and downright “evil” later on. In reality, most of these blanket proclamations were simply wrong. I’ve learned to adopt the approaches that fit me and my strengths best and fit the situation. IF you find TAM feeding feelings that truly derail your goals then I agree it would be smart to change how you use it or if you use it. A smart IC should be able to work with you on deciding which tools available to you are helpful in what ways and at what times. The wise folks here at TAM are good at that as well.

I would also like to add my somewhat unfortunate voice of experience. Two decades ago after my wife’s second affair we went to a highly recommended MC. I was stunned, in shock, and all too passive. My wife was shameful, emotionally confused, and more than a little entitled. Our MC did what you and many others have described – ran past the infidelity as fast as possible onto issues in the relationship itself. This worked well for my wife and she actually did get a good deal out of it (yes, even more than just feeding the entitlement). I sat in the sessions feeling like someone on a platform having watched the train leave the station. I didn’t have my ticket yet – I needed to address the affairs directly before I could really get on that train. Ultimately the MC did not work and rugsweeping ensued in the R. We have yet to find a MC that would work directly with the infidelity – I am sure they are out there, I just haven’t personally stumbled upon one.

Over the last two years reading at TAM I have learned so much that I wish I knew then. It is often too simplistic for my uses but that is frequently because folks here are responding based upon the brief snippets of information they see, not a long and complex relationship between two unique individuals. But at its core the advice has been much more valuable than our original MC and the three MCs we have seen in recent years. I feel much more solid on our road to R and some of that is due to TAM – and my wife agrees. 

I truly hope that you continue to heal and your R is successful (so long as you wish it to be).


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## loyallad

vellocet said:


> Ok, I have a question to that......what?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yup, which is why I think counseling is a load of crap. Sounds like the MC is going to get you to wrap yourself around your wife's finger. She cheats, and gets an MC to emotionally extort you. Nice, real nice.
> 
> Tell me, what did the MC say that your wife needs to do?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is correct. But here is the problem I have. What is it that your wife has to do according to the MC? Did the MC say that if she doesn't step up that YOU should move on to someone that won't treat YOU that way?
> 
> 
> :iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:
> *Appears to me the MC wants to play the affair as just a minor symptom of the problems in the marriage. The MC really needs to address the affair and what your WW is doing to help you and to R the M. Will you have to play a part in all this? Yep, but until the A is addressed and you can reach some level of forgiveness R is likely to fail. And the MC telling you to just forget about the A so you can move on. Ask the MC this, "have you ever slam your hand in a door"? If MC says yes then ask MC if they forgot what that pain felt like.*
> 
> You won't forget. You can only come to a point in your life where the thoughts don't consume you.
> 
> And even though, if you are to R, you can't hold hit over her head, you are allowed to be angry about this for a while and yes, hold it over her head.....*for a while*, not forever. Its going to take time.
> MC seems to think that you can just switch that sh!t off. I see a "you need to just get over it" ambush going on here.
> 
> :iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> Seems the MC is on her side. So if you want to keep this MC, then you are going to have to be the bad guy.


*Vellocet you make very good points. Seems this MC has decided the course of action and appears Kev is going to be the one doing all the heavy lifting in this R. *


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## vellocet

loyallad said:


> *Vellocet you make very good points. Seems this MC has decided the course of action and appears Kev is going to be the one doing all the heavy lifting in this R. *


Yup.

Kev, did the MC also start blaming you for your wife's affair?

And again, did the MC do anything to state your wife's responsibility in helping you and what is expected of her? Or was she just putting all of this on you?

I actually don't know why I'm asking. Its obvious you simply need a different MC.


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## KingwoodKev

vellocet said:


> Yup.
> 
> Kev, did the MC also start blaming you for your wife's affair?
> 
> And again, did the MC do anything to state your wife's responsibility in helping you and what is expected of her? Or was she just putting all of this on you?
> 
> I actually don't know why I'm asking. Its obvious you simply need a different MC.


MC's seem to brush over affairs. They say it's far less important than what led to it. I can see their point at some level but I don't think telling me to "get over it" or "let it go" is a very nice thing to do. It seems like I have to eat it in order to help with her recovery from this mid life mental illness. At least that's the way I feel about it. When I bring this up they say "no, your feelings are very important and we need to address them" and then it gets back to how I shouldn't dwell on the affair itself, it's not important, let's talk about other things. It can be frustrating. I keep being the nice guy but I'm about at the end of my tolerance for eating sh!t.


----------



## vellocet

KingwoodKev said:


> MC's seem to brush over affairs. They say it's far less important than what led to it.


which is why I think MC, for the most part, is a load of shyte.




> I can see their point at some level but I don't think telling me to "get over it" or "let it go" is a very nice thing to do. It seems like I have to eat it in order to help with her recovery from this mid life mental illness.


You don't have to EAT anything. Because then there won't be a true recovery. You'll get one spouse that doesn't have to do anything while you are still sitting there unsatisfied because you had to suck it up.

So what did the counselor say your wife needed to do? Or was this all one sided and all she has to do is sit there and feel justified?


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## Wolf1974

KingwoodKev said:


> MC's seem to brush over affairs. They say it's far less important than what led to it. I can see their point at some level but I don't think telling me to "get over it" or "let it go" is a very nice thing to do. It seems like I have to eat it in order to help with her recovery from this mid life mental illness. At least that's the way I feel about it. When I bring this up they say "no, your feelings are very important and we need to address them" and then it gets back to how I shouldn't dwell on the affair itself, it's not important, let's talk about other things. It can be frustrating. I keep being the nice guy but I'm about at the end of my tolerance for eating sh!t.


 Sounds to me like WS nonsense. Maybe the counselor is coming from that angle of a previous WS and minimizing the affair or trying to get you to be responsible for it? If that's the case my suggestion would be run. If I was in counseling and they told me to get over an affair I would be done!


----------



## warlock07

KingwoodKev said:


> They're not telling her that. See? You guys keep pulling me back in.  Actually I think I'll stay on TAM but follow the advice not to get caught up in any threads where infidelity is at its worst point. I'll admit that those keep bringing up feelings in me that I'm trying to move past.
> 
> Anyway, our MC told me I can't act morally superior to her and keep acting like she's a horrible person. She said if I really want to R why would I want to get back together with someone I consider a horrible person? That was kind of risky because some people might say "h'uh, you're right, why would I do that?" and then get up and walk out. I didn't. I know I have to let it go. Of course there will be very strict boundaries and major lack of trust issues with me and my wife says she totally understands that and accepts it.
> 
> I just don't like being told, when it's my turn to talk about how I feel, to try not to come from a judgmental or morally superior standpoint. It's upsetting to me that when that happens I'm made to feel like I'm in the wrong and not the person who cheated.


Actually, this sounds a little better... She/he has some fair points..


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## turnera

I would just tell the MC next time, then, that this is not how you foresee moving forward. That if the MC - and consequently your wife - feel that you must simply forget the pain you endured, then you will not be interested in reconciling. Because if you had cheated on your WIFE, you would expect - because you love her - to have to address how you hurt her and to try to do something to help her heal. Tell them that if that's not their method, then you will not be returning. 

Remind them that as the betrayed spouse, you have the right to divorce immediately and never give her a second chance, but that you ARE here, willing to CONSIDER reconciliation, but that it is NOT a given and you still may walk away at any time if you don't feel the betrayal is being handled correctly. Because for you to be willing to try R, you must see acknowledgment, from your wife AND from your MC, that you were dealt a horrible blow, that you will not accept blame for her choice, and that you need to see real work on your wife's part in acknowledging her capability to near-mortally wound you - because if you're going to R, it would have to be after seeing a REAL step change and awareness in your wife so that you can feel safe being vulnerable with her again.


----------



## vellocet

Wolf1974 said:


> Sounds to me like WS nonsense. Maybe the counselor is coming from that angle of a previous WS and minimizing the affair or trying to get you to be responsible for it? If that's the case my suggestion would be run. If I was in counseling and they told me to get over an affair I would be done!


Perhaps this MC, and others like her, are concerned with their methods being a "success", and feel that they can't count on the WS, in certain situations, to be the one to do anything to keep them married, so they manipulate the BS into thinking they need to bear the greatest share of responsibility in "saving" the marriage.


----------



## TRy

KingwoodKev said:


> MC's seem to brush over affairs. They say it's far less important than what led to it. I can see their point at some level but I don't think telling me to "get over it" or "let it go" is a very nice thing to do.


 The MC wanting to focus only on "what led the" affair, while asking you to "get over it", implies from the get go that you did something that got your wife to cheat, while automatically ruling out that maybe the cheater was just a selfish cake eater. This type of thinking by the MC leads to letting the cheater dictating to the MC why you are to blame for them cheating, resulting in rug sweeping and blame shifting.


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## tulsy

FWIW, the last MC my ex and I used was nothing but an enabler for my ex. It was a total waste of time and money. I feel sorry for every couple that comes in contact with that MC.

I really wish I knew about TAM back then.


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## KingwoodKev

tulsy said:


> FWIW, the last MC my ex and I used was nothing but an enabler for my ex. It was a total waste of time and money. I feel sorry for every couple that comes in contact with that MC.
> 
> I really wish I knew about TAM back then.


I'm thrilled that I did some googling because I was lost and stuck in zombie land and wanted so badly to move forward regardless of what "forward" meant. I've only been here a very short time and it has helped me quite a bit.


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## turnera

Kev, the reason this place helps so much is that you DO get different views. You can easily see how a person could see a situation one way while another person could see it another way - that's what helps you pick out the nut responses and find the stuff that really applies to your situation. And you get people who've tried everything under the sun, in huge numbers, so that you get a somewhat fairly scientific take on what works and what doesn't. 

That's what I've done. I've been doing this for about 15 years, and I've kept a mental list of which steps taken helped the marriages or which steps didn't. And which, or how many, posters have come back AFTER doing what isn't recommended (rugsweeping, etc.), and said 'well, you were right, she cheated again.' (hint: a LOT)


----------



## KingwoodKev

turnera said:


> Kev, the reason this place helps so much is that you DO get different views. You can easily see how a person could see a situation one way while another person could see it another way - that's what helps you pick out the nut responses and find the stuff that really applies to your situation. And you get people who've tried everything under the sun, in huge numbers, so that you get a somewhat fairly scientific take on what works and what doesn't.
> 
> That's what I've done. I've been doing this for about 15 years, and I've kept a mental list of which steps taken helped the marriages or which steps didn't. And which, or how many, posters have come back AFTER doing what isn't recommended (rugsweeping, etc.), and said 'well, you were right, she cheated again.' (hint: a LOT)


I am putting my foot down on R rules. She is kind of using my own motto against me. My family knows I've said for years "Give everyone a second chance, give no one a third." I learned that in USMC leadership training. I have agreed to give her a second chance. TAM has helped me kind of laying out those guidelines. The rules of R. Things I might not have thought of. To be honest our rules of the past were kind of implied because we were a Disney type couple. We didn't do bars or sleazy sex scenes. We never thought we needed explicit rules on how to behave around the opposite sex. Now there will be rules written in stone and no forgiveness offered for breaking them.


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## Mr.Fisty

Sad to say, mc, and ic sometimes have the agenda of making the marriage work at all cost. What they need to do is be neutral and give insight. Whether you reconcile or not, that should not be their goal. They should only help you make a decision by giving you the tools to succeed.

You see, if all the goal they have in mind is the marriage, they will only give advice on how to make the marriage succeed. If I were your therapist, I would give you the insight to make that decision on your own. Marriage is not the goal here, but to give you the information to make that decision.


----------



## turnera

You ARE giving her a second chance. To show you how she has changed, why she will never do it again, and why you should believe her. You made her wait for two years. Now she has her chance. And if she's going along with the MC saying just sweep it under the rug, then you have your answer.


----------



## KingwoodKev

turnera said:


> You ARE giving her a second chance. To show you how she has changed, why she will never do it again, and why you should believe her. You made her wait for two years. Now she has her chance. And if she's going along with the MC saying just sweep it under the rug, then you have your answer.


Actually when I was talking about my feelings and the MC said it's a negative return to dwell on the affair my wife did speak up and say that she wanted to get into it with me so we could address everything and not leave anything unsaid.

I will give her credit. She is trying. I have finally accepted that although she is the one who blew up our happy family that she too has been suffering the last two years. I've talked about how being betrayed by the one person I thought could never do that was unimaginable pain. She has talked about knowing that she betrayed me and hurt me like that made her want to die. We both spent over a year wishing we were dead. I could see how badly she was hurting too but it was appeasing my rage with her so I let her hurt. Now I feel guilty about that. Maybe that means I am truly ready to forgive.

I will give you all credit for something. My mental movies have lessened since I came here. They played 24/7 before I started talking to you guys. Even the quality of my work suffered but my company cut me slack because they knew what had happened. People would come up to me and say "if this could happen to you guys then I've lost hope for the world." I felt the same way.

Still, regardless that MC says I should stay off sites like TAM I do value all the advice I've gotten here and the sympathetic ears I've found that know this pain. I feel 75% better than before I found TAM. Now I have to work on the other 25%.


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## TRy

turnera said:


> I would just tell the MC next time, then, that this is not how you foresee moving forward. That if the MC - and consequently your wife - feel that you must simply forget the pain you endured, then you will not be interested in reconciling. Because if you had cheated on your WIFE, you would expect - because you love her - to have to address how you hurt her and to try to do something to help her heal. Tell them that if that's not their method, then you will not be returning.
> 
> Remind them that as the betrayed spouse, you have the right to divorce immediately and never give her a second chance, but that you ARE here, willing to CONSIDER reconciliation, but that it is NOT a given and you still may walk away at any time if you don't feel the betrayal is being handled correctly. Because for you to be willing to try R, you must see acknowledgment, from your wife AND from your MC, that you were dealt a horrible blow, that you will not accept blame for her choice, and that you need to see real work on your wife's part in acknowledging her capability to near-mortally wound you - because if you're going to R, it would have to be after seeing a REAL step change and awareness in your wife so that you can feel safe being vulnerable with her again.


:iagree::iagree::iagree: turner nailed it.


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## cdbaker

KingwoodKev said:


> Posting, reading, visiting. I brought up how I thought it had helped me with some things and both my IC and our MC told me this is a very dangerous place. They both had the same advice. They said this place was full of a lot of people where things went very badly and they're still very bitter and wouldn't give good advice. They advised me to stick with the pro's. I just thought you guys would like to know that A.) at least these "pro's" have heard of TAM and B.) they don't like it and tell their clients to stay off it.
> 
> I'll admit, as I read some of these incredibly sad stories it kind of drudges back up negative feelings in me that I'm trying to work through and it might not be healthy for me to dwell on the sadness.
> 
> Of course I don't think you guys are amateurs. You share your own experiences, actions, and results and I appreciate that. I may pop back in but I'm committed to this R so if they suggest I stay off this site then I'll respect that for a month or so.
> 
> A quick update. We had a good weekend. Wife and I went to the grocery together for the first time in a couple years. Just little stuff like that, nothing serious, but it was fun. Daughter would not go. She's still too angry. Still, another decent weekend under our belts.


Honestly as much as I like and appreciate TAM for what it is, I can certainly understand where your counselors are coming from. Over the years there have been many times where I stopped visiting TAM because I just couldn't take the negativity. Other times, threads will just fill with posts from people who have clearly been burned hard in their marriages and now believe that any tiny clue of a potential deceit means it's time for full on divorce. Then at the very least, it must be understood that none of us (well, the vast majority of us I assume) have any actual clinical/mental health training here, yet most of us still offer up advice left and right. I think it's easy to see how that could lead to some bad situations.

So I think TAM can be a great resource for support, but advice and things of that nature should be taken with a grain of salt.


----------



## tulsy

tulsy said:


> FWIW, the last MC my ex and I used was nothing but an enabler for my ex. It was a total waste of time and money. I feel sorry for every couple that comes in contact with that MC.
> 
> I really wish I knew about TAM back then.





KingwoodKev said:


> I'm thrilled that I did some googling because I was lost and stuck in zombie land and wanted so badly to move forward regardless of what "forward" meant. I've only been here a very short time and it has helped me quite a bit.


Kev, I really have to add something else...

I think my ex and I would have had a better chance at R if we never encountered that MC. I'm not saying it would have/could have worked out between us, but I truly believe we may have had a shot at success with proper guidance. 

I'm not blaming the breakdown of my marriage on anyone, except myself and my ex, however, the MC's words and advice truly created a larger rift between my ex and I, and unfortunately, the rest is history, just like my marriage.

Good luck, buddy.


----------



## KingwoodKev

tulsy said:


> Kev, I really have to add something else...
> 
> I think my ex and I would have had a better chance at R if we never encountered that MC. I'm not saying it would have/could have worked out between us, but I truly believe we may have had a shot at success with proper guidance.
> 
> I'm not blaming the breakdown of my marriage on anyone, except myself and my ex, however, the MC's words and advice truly created a larger rift between my ex and I, and unfortunately, the rest is history, just like my marriage.
> 
> Good luck, buddy.


I guess we have to remind ourselves that MC's are just people and that's their job. We then have to remind ourselves that not everybody is great at their job. I prefer an "all of the above" approach. I'm going to do MC and IC as needed but if I want to participate in online support groups, which is what this is, then that's what I'm going to do.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

turnera said:


> I would just tell the MC next time, then, that this is not how you foresee moving forward. That if the MC - and consequently your wife - feel that you must simply forget the pain you endured, then you will not be interested in reconciling. Because if you had cheated on your WIFE, you would expect - because you love her - to have to address how you hurt her and to try to do something to help her heal. Tell them that if that's not their method, then you will not be returning.
> 
> Remind them that as the betrayed spouse, you have the right to divorce immediately and never give her a second chance, but that you ARE here, willing to CONSIDER reconciliation, but that it is NOT a given and you still may walk away at any time if you don't feel the betrayal is being handled correctly. Because for you to be willing to try R, you must see acknowledgment, from your wife AND from your MC, that you were dealt a horrible blow, that you will not accept blame for her choice, and that you need to see real work on your wife's part in acknowledging her capability to near-mortally wound you - because if you're going to R, it would have to be after seeing a REAL step change and awareness in your wife so that you can feel safe being vulnerable with her again.


This is a fantastic post. I will add to it that an affair recovery resource that is super balanced and does NOT ignore the affair, but puts it front and center is www.affairrecovery.com

I would fire this MC. Just my opinion. Her accountability radar is screwed up.


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## loyallad

KingwoodKev said:


> MC's seem to brush over affairs. They say it's far less important than what led to it. I can see their point at some level but I don't think telling me to "get over it" or "let it go" is a very nice thing to do. It seems like I have to eat it in order to help with her recovery from this mid life mental illness. At least that's the way I feel about it. When I bring this up they say "no, your feelings are very important and we need to address them" and then it gets back to how I shouldn't dwell on the affair itself, it's not important, let's talk about other things. It can be frustrating. I keep being the nice guy but I'm about at the end of my tolerance for eating sh!t.


If the A is not that important ask the MC if she would condone something like that in her M? Bet you get a different perspective from the MC.

Ask the MC if instead of having an A your WW took a club and whacked you in the head everyday. Would the MC say you shouldn't worry about the physical pain of being whacked with a club but let's focus on what you did to cause your W to whack you with a club. Yeah I know sort of far fetched or is it? The A was emotional attack on your heart, your love for your W. To just say the A is not that big of a deal is not addressing the hurt you have. That will have to be worked out along with the other issues in your marriage for R to actually work for you.


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## Blossom Leigh

This MC needs to understand it takes 2 to 5 years... and that program I shared puts that out there so everyone understands that is is NOT an overnight thing.


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## turnera

Blossom Leigh said:


> This is a fantastic post. I will add to it that an affair recovery resource that is super balanced and does NOT ignore the affair, but puts it front and center is www.affairrecovery.com


Which just happens to be run by our very own, very wise, affaircare.


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## BWBill

_The MC told me I can't take a position of moral superiority over her since she cheated and I didn't. She said if I can't change that then she'd advise my wife that R is not going to work and she needs to move on to someone who won't treat her that way. _

I find this intriguing. 

So your wife's actions are not morally wrong? Despite the effect that she has had on her marriage? Her daughter's wrong for being angry with her? Are you allowed to say that you are hurt and distrustful? Sounds like rug sweeping to me.

The second sentence sounds like a threat. Either do it her way or she tells your wife to walk? Your wife cheats and yet she's the one who needs to find someone who will treat her better?


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## frankman

Ive only been here since Sept.

Ive noticed a couple things.

Several posters are stunningly good at predicting outcomes. Machieveli, blossom and weightlifter. Machieveli was right almost immediately before I had any thought of cheating or in fact before my soon ex had actually cheated.

Some posters are hopelessly bitter.

Some thereapists are blame the victim morons. I sense yours may be some of those. If I was so damn awful, my soon ex should have started divorce FIRST. 

Im almost good now. It took a while. Several here kicked my butt. They were right and made me admit to myself what was obvious to them. I have bad times but they are spacing further and further apart. BWBill above is a genius. He sounds correct.


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## Affaircare

turnera said:


> Which just happens to be run by our very own, very wise, affaircare.


Oh dear--just to clarify, the one that Blossom quoted is not run by me but rather by some folks whom I consider colleagues "in the trenches" helping people save their marriages. 

My site is in my siggy and it's just like my name: Affaircare.


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## turnera

Oops! My bad! I always thought that was yours!


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## Blossom Leigh

YES ... Our Affaircare rocks... and I love her dearly. 

The one I quote is the one my H and I used that was really well designed. It's based in Austin, Tx. I was really impressed and it really helped us in the first leg of our journey to recovery.


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## sidney2718

lordmayhem said:


> We've seen here time and time again, how many ICs and MCs give terrible advice especially when they advise the BS to rugsweep and allow the WS to get away with their behavior.


I've noticed that. If the professional advice does not agree with the majority here, they are no good and throw them away.

Could it ever be possible that a professional could be right?

Naw, not possible.


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## sidney2718

KingwoodKev said:


> Trust me I do have some questions about some of the things I'm being told.
> 
> The MC told me I can't take a position of moral superiority over her since she cheated and I didn't. She said if I can't change that then she'd advise my wife that R is not going to work and she needs to move on to someone who won't treat her that way. It's weird. She cheats and I'm the bad guy for feeling a tad morally superior to the cheater?
> 
> I guess I can kind of see what she's saying. R won't work if I hold it over her. I'm going to have to truly forgive and maybe forget. Forgive I think I can do, but forget? That's a tall order.


Your MC is trying to save the marriage, not your ego. You cannot grind your WW down to dust, demand that she get on her knees and beg you for forgiveness and expect that your marriage will be suddenly resurected. Wives are human beings with feelins and sensibilities.

And do I pick up tremors of the MC thinking that some of your actions may have contributed to the wandering?

My suggestion to you is that you look up EI's thread and read deeply into it. You might also check out B1's thread.


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## sidney2718

KingwoodKev said:


> Actually when I was talking about my feelings and the MC said it's a negative return to dwell on the affair my wife did speak up and say that she wanted to get into it with me so we could address everything and not leave anything unsaid.
> 
> I will give her credit. She is trying. I have finally accepted that although she is the one who blew up our happy family that she too has been suffering the last two years. I've talked about how being betrayed by the one person I thought could never do that was unimaginable pain. She has talked about knowing that she betrayed me and hurt me like that made her want to die. We both spent over a year wishing we were dead. I could see how badly she was hurting too but it was appeasing my rage with her so I let her hurt. Now I feel guilty about that. Maybe that means I am truly ready to forgive.


I wish you'd put this information in your first post in this thread. You cast the events in a very negative way and allowed us to think that your wife and the MC wanted to rugsweep. Turns out that the opposite was true.

Let the MC control the pace and depth of any discussion of the affair. The MC will try to keep it from exploding or being too hurtful, because both with hurt the reconciliation.

And just for my own curiosity, did the MC cover any things in your behavior that might need attention? If the MC has not, you can expect that the subject will come up. Do not treat it as unimportant.


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## Graywolf2

OP, your situation is quite unique in two ways. These two ways are interconnected and make R more difficult.

1.	Everyone agrees that your pre-affair marriage was great. 
2.	The affair caused your kids to cut off their mom completely. 

I tend to believe that your marriage was great because of your kids’ reaction. Try as they might they couldn’t come up with the slightest rationale for their mom’s affair. Normally kids are the primary driver of R but in your case it’s the exact opposite. 

In MC you normally discuss things that made the marriage susceptible to an affair. In your case there is nothing to discuss. You had a marriage to be envied but your wife wanted a little strange before she got too old. It’s that simple and there was no "mid life mental illness." She made a calculated decision, nothing crazy about it. You were so trusting that she felt safe. You were not supposed to find out and there would be no harm done. Once she got it out of her system she had planned to grow old with you none the wiser. But then things got out of control.



KingwoodKev said:


> MC's seem to brush over affairs. When I bring this up they say "no, your feelings are very important and we need to address them" and then it gets back to how I shouldn't dwell on the affair itself, it's not important, let's talk about other things. It can be frustrating. I keep being the nice guy but I'm about at the end of my tolerance for eating sh!t.


Put yourself in the position of the marriage councilors. You have told them that you’re all set to R and it’s their job to help you accomplish it. The problem is that there is no gray for them to work with or spin. It’s all pretty black and white. 

You want to R because you can’t give up on the marvel your marriage was. You won the lottery and your wife looks the same. Maybe you can recover some of your winnings. 

Since the OM dumped her your wife is very motivated to get back on track and grow old with you like she originally planned. She says that she has learned her lesson and is willing to do the heavy lifting.

The only obstacle is your memory of the affair. You and the hard facts are the problem. There’s really nothing for the councilors to work on except to get the affair out of your mind so they minimize and dismiss it. 

*All it does is cause trouble like that TAM forum.*

EDIT: I’m dating myself but "mid life mental illness” reminds me of the old Flip Wilson line: “The devil made me do it.”


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## GusPolinski

KingwoodKev said:


> Trust me I do have some questions about some of the things I'm being told.
> 
> The MC told me I can't take a position of moral superiority over her since she cheated and I didn't. She said if I can't change that then she'd advise my wife that R is not going to work and she needs to move on to someone who won't treat her that way. It's weird. She cheats and I'm the bad guy for feeling a tad morally superior to the cheater?
> 
> I guess I can kind of see what she's saying. R won't work if I hold it over her. I'm going to have to truly forgive and maybe forget. Forgive I think I can do, but forget? That's a tall order.


I realize that ^this^ is from a few pages back, but I'm feeling the need to say the following...

Kev, you've *got* the high ground, man. You know it, your wife knows it, and both your MC and IC know it as well. But here's the thing...

Your wife was once up there w/ you, looking out upon everything -- a home, a family, retirement, etc -- that the two of you had spent decades building together, as well as looking forward to everything that the future would bring -- graduations, weddings, grandchildren, etc. But now, and as a result of her past horrible behavior, your wife has fallen* into the flooded, marshy, and muddy quagmire below. This left you w/ 3 choices...

1. Leave her in the muck.
2. Join her in the muck.
3. Help her back onto the hilltop.

You've clearly chosen #3, which -- truly -- is great. You clearly want her back on the hilltop w/ you. But you're not going to accomplish that by looking down at her and yelling, "Nah nah nah boo boo, I'm up here and you're down there!"

Light the way and help her back, Kev.





*Others will object to my choice of words here, and that's fine. Ignore them.

(And holy crap, please don't delete this thread.  )


----------



## wmn1

KingwoodKev said:


> Actually when I was talking about my feelings and the MC said it's a negative return to dwell on the affair my wife did speak up and say that she wanted to get into it with me so we could address everything and not leave anything unsaid.
> 
> I will give her credit. She is trying. I have finally accepted that although she is the one who blew up our happy family that she too has been suffering the last two years. I've talked about how being betrayed by the one person I thought could never do that was unimaginable pain. She has talked about knowing that she betrayed me and hurt me like that made her want to die. We both spent over a year wishing we were dead. I could see how badly she was hurting too but it was appeasing my rage with her so I let her hurt. Now I feel guilty about that. Maybe that means I am truly ready to forgive.
> 
> I will give you all credit for something. My mental movies have lessened since I came here. They played 24/7 before I started talking to you guys. Even the quality of my work suffered but my company cut me slack because they knew what had happened. People would come up to me and say "if this could happen to you guys then I've lost hope for the world." I felt the same way.
> 
> Still, regardless that MC says I should stay off sites like TAM I do value all the advice I've gotten here and the sympathetic ears I've found that know this pain. I feel 75% better than before I found TAM. Now I have to work on the other 25%.


I just don't understand why a MC would rugsweep the main component on why you and your wife broke up. The MC is for both of you to heal. Trying to ignore your pains is not good for the MC as she has seemingly taken sides. You are the high ground. You could have been out there getting laid for the last 2 years but stayed a good role model for your daughter and stayed loyal to the wife despite what she did. You don't need garbage or blameshifting from the MC. Your issues are as vital if not more than your wifes at this point.

In the end, the statements from your MC concern me greatly. Another line crossing like that, there should be a dishonorable discharge there.

Kudos for your wife not to take advantage of that bad advice and wanting to talk about it and I wish you the best in your attempts to reconcile. You seem to have a truly remorseful wife, the first step in moving on in R. I am glad that this has happened for you


----------



## wmn1

sidney2718 said:


> I wish you'd put this information in your first post in this thread. You cast the events in a very negative way and allowed us to think that your wife and the MC wanted to rugsweep. Turns out that the opposite was true.
> 
> Let the MC control the pace and depth of any discussion of the affair. The MC will try to keep it from exploding or being too hurtful, because both with hurt the reconciliation.
> 
> And just for my own curiosity, did the MC cover any things in your behavior that might need attention? If the MC has not, you can expect that the subject will come up. Do not treat it as unimportant.



he never said what his wife's reaction to the MC was Sidney, he simply stated what the MC said, which is still horribly wrong. The MC wanted to rugsweep, noone ever said the wife did.

If the MC doesn't address the affair, she isn't a very good one. 

Again I need to emphasize to you that Kingwood is not the reason for the breakup. You seem to forget that here


----------



## wmn1

sidney2718 said:


> Your MC is trying to save the marriage, not your ego. You cannot grind your WW down to dust, demand that she get on her knees and beg you for forgiveness and expect that your marriage will be suddenly resurected. Wives are human beings with feelins and sensibilities.
> 
> And do I pick up tremors of the MC thinking that some of your actions may have contributed to the wandering?
> 
> My suggestion to you is that you look up EI's thread and read deeply into it. You might also check out B1's thread.


If Kingwood was trying to grind her to dust as you say, he wouldn't be in MC. He would be still living apart and keeping her in limbo. Or after 2 years getting a divorce. He's done a standup job lately in this, why the jabs against him ??

You have no info that Kev did anything to lead to the affair. Nothing should ever lead to an affair anyway. So I know where you are going with this but to me you are piling on top of a good samaritan which is complete BS


----------



## Graywolf2

GusPolinski said:


> Your wife was once up there w/ you, looking out upon everything -- a home, a family, retirement, etc -- that the two of you had spent decades building together, as well as looking forward to everything that the future would bring -- graduations, weddings, grandchildren, etc.


If I were in your shoes it would all boil down to my wife not deserving the above after what she had done. She doesn’t deserve it at all. The question is by depriving her of it are you also depriving yourself of too much. I would get a divorce because I couldn’t handle it. But maybe you can.


----------



## GusPolinski

Graywolf2 said:


> If I were in your shoes it would all boil down to my wife not deserving the above after what she had done. She doesn’t deserve it at all. The question is by depriving her of it are you also depriving yourself of too much. I would get a divorce because I couldn’t handle it. But maybe you can.


Again, he's chosen option #3. If you can't help him w/ that, why say anything at all?


----------



## Graywolf2

GusPolinski said:


> Again, he's chosen option #3. If you can't help him w/ that, why say anything at all?


I'm saying that he will pay a price for not R. All the things you listed are important and they may be more important to him than her affair.


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## GusPolinski

Graywolf2 said:


> I'm saying that he will pay a price for not R. All the things you listed are important.


Just re-read your post and realized that I'd previously misread it.

Apologies sir.


----------



## turnera

fwiw, we haven't heard a single thing about Kev trying to grind his wife into dust other than him admitting he wanted her to suffer the last two years. Everything he's described since he came here has been about really wanting to give her a second chance but being afraid to. I don't get what some are seeing or willing to believe that he's being a belligerent ass to deserve a dressing down by the MC. Unless he's just snowing us. But if so, why even come here?


----------



## GusPolinski

turnera said:


> fwiw, we haven't heard a single thing about Kev trying to grind his wife into dust other than him admitting he wanted her to suffer the last two years. Everything he's described since he came here has been about really wanting to give her a second chance but being afraid to. I don't get what some are seeing or willing to believe that he's being a belligerent ass to deserve a dressing down by the MC. Unless he's just snowing us. But if so, why even come here?


I'm reading it as less of a dressing down and more of a "if you want to reconcile, these are the things that you need to be willing to not do" statement.

Now... if the MC is too willing to rugsweep the affair (after all, that's THE reason that they're in this situation to begin with), or she's _too_ quick to tell Kev's FWW what she should and shouldn't tolerate, then she's probably not the right MC for the job. Or, TBH, any "job" involving a post-affair marital reconciliation.

Oh, and BTW, turnera...

Mrs. Gus told me yesterday that she wants a weed-eater for Valentine's Day.

:lol: :rofl:


----------



## turnera

Good for her!

But let me tell you a secret. I wanted it, but I was secretly hoping that my HUSBAND would use it.


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## ConanHub

turnera said:


> Good for her!
> 
> But let me tell you a secret. I wanted it, but I was secretly hoping that my HUSBAND would use it.


LOL! Manipulator! &#55357;&#56841;&#55357;&#56833;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tom67

turnera said:


> Good for her!
> 
> But let me tell you a secret. I wanted it, but I was secretly hoping that my HUSBAND would use it.


:lol::lol::rofl:


----------



## GusPolinski

turnera said:


> Good for her!
> 
> But let me tell you a secret. I wanted it, but I was secretly hoping that my HUSBAND would use it.


Covert contract! Covert contract!

:lol:

Either way... yeah, I'm no dummy.


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## turnera

Yeah, well, it didn't work. It's not like I DIDN'T use it while waiting for him to. 

T/J: This is honestly the biggest thing I ever got out of IC - to stop expecting my H to pull through and do what most guys would do, to pretend I'm single so I have no expectations. So I did, I stopped asking him for help. But that doesn't stop weekends from being my least favorite time - knowing every Saturday morning that I'd either ask for help and not get it, or NOT ask for help and stew in anger all weekend because he doesn't help.


----------



## Mr Blunt

*



IC and our MC told me this is a very dangerous place.

Click to expand...

*Some of TAM can be detrimental to your recovery. Kev, you have detailed those TAM poster’s general topics that you should stay away from so I am not going to repeat. I like Gus’s post on this topic; he said:



> By Gus
> Given that you've decided to reconcile w/ your wife, you should pretty much ignore any "advice" given to you that runs counter to that goal.


I would also suggest that you not even read some posts that talk about how horrible and depraved the WSs are and then they go on and describe what the WS did and said that sparks rage. All of us BSs already know the great pain of betrayal already and you have decided to R so those kind of posts are detrimental to your R.

As a BS, I know that some of that rehashing of how horrible and depraved the WS is can seem to have some kind of macabre attraction but for me it is alike the moth drawn to the flame. That rehashing can also point out how the WS has violated the laws of marriage and you, the innocent victim, are in the right and are justified in vengeance. The problem with that in R is that in a successful R justice is not as important as forgiveness and vengeance eats at the soul of both WS and BS. IMO

I would also suggest that you only read the posters that have some success in R and that success has been evident for years.

As far as TAM being a dangerous place, yes it can be but it can also be very helpful. You just have to pick the posts to read. Your IC and MC maybe just focusing on the negative of TAM. In addition, sometimes IC and MCs need to shut up and listen to their clients, such as you and your wife. Listed below are a few of your statements that tell me that the IC and MC should listen to you and your wife:




> *By KEV*
> I will give you all credit for something. My mental movies have lessened since I came here. They played 24/7 before I started talking to you guys. I feel 75% better than before I found TAM
> 
> I tell them that if I hadn't come here looking for advice/answers I probably wouldn't have started the R. I was able to get past some horrible pain/bitterness in just a few weeks being here and talking to people
> who have been exactly where I was. To me it was the best therapy I've ever had and isn't that the most important thing?
> 
> 
> *By Kev’s wife*
> Actually when I was talking about my feelings and the MC said it's a negative return to dwell on the affair my wife did speak up and say that she wanted to get into it with me so we could address everything and not leave anything unsaid.


Kev, my experience is that I went to four counselors and three of them had PhDs. Some helped quite a bit, some helped in minor areas, and one was a complete dud. Some helped but they can only be a part of the R, you and your wife are the main players and will do the most to determine your R. Kev, I like what you said below:



> I'm going to do MC and IC as needed but if I want to participate in online support groups, which is what this is, then that's what I'm going to do


----------



## jim123

KingwoodKev said:


> Actually when I was talking about my feelings and the MC said it's a negative return to dwell on the affair my wife did speak up and say that she wanted to get into it with me so we could address everything and not leave anything unsaid.
> 
> I will give her credit. She is trying. I have finally accepted that although she is the one who blew up our happy family that she too has been suffering the last two years. I've talked about how being betrayed by the one person I thought could never do that was unimaginable pain. She has talked about knowing that she betrayed me and hurt me like that made her want to die. We both spent over a year wishing we were dead. I could see how badly she was hurting too but it was appeasing my rage with her so I let her hurt. Now I feel guilty about that. Maybe that means I am truly ready to forgive.
> 
> I will give you all credit for something. My mental movies have lessened since I came here. They played 24/7 before I started talking to you guys. Even the quality of my work suffered but my company cut me slack because they knew what had happened. People would come up to me and say "if this could happen to you guys then I've lost hope for the world." I felt the same way.
> 
> Still, regardless that MC says I should stay off sites like TAM I do value all the advice I've gotten here and the sympathetic ears I've found that know this pain. I feel 75% better than before I found TAM. Now I have to work on the other 25%.


You forgive for you and not for her. Do not let this beat you.  Do not let OM win by destroying you.

If you want to do it, just do it. You are just dragging out the pain. Time to face it and put it behind you one way or another.


----------



## MattMatt

Some so-called professionals like to play it safe. They'd rather sacrifice their own client on the altar of their prejudices to the God of Political Correctness than offering them meaningful help.

You got the same advice from two different people? An old saying has it: "Fools seldom differ in their opinions."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

MattMatt said:


> Some so-called professionals like to play it safe. They'd rather sacrifice their own client on the altar of their prejudices to the God of Political Correctness than offering them meaningful help.
> 
> You got the same advice from two different people? An old saying has it: "Fools seldom differ in their opinions."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think I like...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## arbitrator

MattMatt said:


> Some so-called professionals like to play it safe. They'd rather sacrifice their own client on the altar of their prejudices to the *God of Political Correctness* than offering them meaningful help.
> 
> You got the same advice from two different people? An old saying has it: "Fools seldom differ in their opinions."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


* And please don't leave out their God of Perpetual Cash Flow!*


----------



## IIJokerII

Mr Blunt said:


> Some of TAM can be detrimental to your recovery. Kev, you have detailed those TAM poster’s general topics that you should stay away from so I am not going to repeat. I like Gus’s post on this topic; he said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would also suggest that you not even read some posts that talk about how horrible and depraved the WSs are and then they go on and describe what the WS did and said that sparks rage. All of us BSs already know the great pain of betrayal already and you have decided to R so those kind of posts are detrimental to your R.
> 
> As a BS, I know that some of that rehashing of how horrible and depraved the WS is can seem to have some kind of macabre attraction but for me it is alike the moth drawn to the flame. That rehashing can also point out how the WS has violated the laws of marriage and you, the innocent victim, are in the right and are justified in vengeance. The problem with that in R is that in a successful R justice is not as important as forgiveness and vengeance eats at the soul of both WS and BS. IMO
> 
> I would also suggest that you only read the posters that have some success in R and that success has been evident for years.
> 
> As far as TAM being a dangerous place, yes it can be but it can also be very helpful. You just have to pick the posts to read. Your IC and MC maybe just focusing on the negative of TAM. In addition, sometimes IC and MCs need to shut up and listen to their clients, such as you and your wife. Listed below are a few of your statements that tell me that the IC and MC should listen to you and your wife:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kev, my experience is that I went to four counselors and three of them had PhDs. Some helped quite a bit, some helped in minor areas, and one was a complete dud. Some helped but they can only be a part of the R, you and your wife are the main players and will do the most to determine your R. Kev, I like what you said below:


 Blunt, as much as it can be detrimental to hearing about all of the "Downer" stories it is also helpful to be a realist in this matter. If you went to Amazon and saw nothing but 5 star ratings on every product rated by their customers one might suspect that an influential suggestion is at hand.

TAM offers the other side of the perspective. For every successful story here there are ten failures to attach to them. Kev should educate himself as a means of what not to do as well as what to look out for. He may notice something odd about his wife's behavior that can and from the sound of it will be masked by his MC as just her way of doing things or dealing with things. He can also learn from others about how to not fold like a tent in the face of adversity, which is why this thread exists to begin with, reflective perceptual opinion. Kev had doubts about this and unlike a lamb to slaughter he chose to express his MC/IC's desire for exclusion TAM. 

Again, this place can and unfortunately often does breed animosity, but it is derived from real events. The only ones who do not get immunity of suggestion after logging off from here is ourselves from ourselves. Choices must be made, tough ones at that. I, like Kev, have high hopes he and his Wife can recover as it is possible to do so as I believe nearly everyone deserves a second chance, so long as the offended is able or willing to offer one. In time Kevin like the few others who have recovered will come to no longer need this place for guidance, but for now, another view point is needed to resist the notions of these counselors and the general public consensus of their mishandling of his Wife's responsibility of this matter, lest we forget, the one who did in fact introduce this problem to begin with.


----------



## convert

GusPolinski said:


> I'm reading it as less of a dressing down and more of a "if you want to reconcile, these are the things that you need to be willing to not do" statement.
> 
> Now... if the MC is too willing to rugsweep the affair (after all, that's THE reason that they're in this situation to begin with), or she's _too_ quick to tell Kev's FWW what she should and shouldn't tolerate, then she's probably not the right MC for the job. Or, TBH, any "job" involving a post-affair marital reconciliation.
> 
> Oh, and BTW, turnera...
> 
> *Mrs. Gus told me yesterday that she wants a weed-eater for Valentine's Day.*
> 
> :lol: :rofl:


Gus, I don't know if I would fall for that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Twivg7GkYts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6D6eP6EMj4


----------



## NextTimeAround

MC does appear to be a strange to me. The MC has 3 clients in the session, both spouses and the marriage.

OP, it seems to me that if your wife is committed to R, then why go for MC. Maybe you still need IC to manage your emotions. But maybe that's it.

We get separate lawyers for divorce; and as I have learned in France, to get married non native French speakers need separate translators (so much for romance in France), so why waste time with an MC who is either to lack focus or focus on something to your disadvantage.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

Just like there are good MCs and ICs and bad ones, so are there posters on TAM who are worth listening to and those that are not. 

I know not to listen to the bitter, the angry, the vengeful, the recently betrayed, the black and white thinkers on TAM. I won't listen to anyone who takes an extreme view or decides it's their mission to call BS on everyone else's thoughts, opinions, and actions.

Find the supportive people here, the ones who you can respect, and put the rest on ignore. Heck, I think I may go do a bit of that right now!


----------



## vellocet

sidney2718 said:


> Your MC is trying to save the marriage, not your ego. You cannot grind your WW down to dust, demand that she get on her knees and beg you for forgiveness and expect that your marriage will be suddenly resurected. Wives are human beings with feelins and sensibilities.


And nobody is suggesting he does that.

What we are hearing, from Kev himself, is that the MC is putting this all on him and what HE needs to do to reconcile, while not hearing a thing about what his wife's responsibility is. That and it reads a lot like he is getting from the MC an attitude that he just needs to get over it.

So Kev, can you clarify? Is the MC putting it all on you? Or did she highlight what your wife's responsibility in R is?


----------



## Mr Blunt

Joker
I am not sure where we disagree. My suggestion, my agreement with Gus, and advice is reprinted below



> By Gus
> Given that you've decided to reconcile w/ your wife, you should pretty much ignore any "advice" given to you that runs counter to that goal.
> 
> I would also suggest that you not even read some posts that talk about how horrible and depraved the WSs are and then they go on and describe what the WS did and said that sparks rage. All of us BSs already know the great pain of betrayal already and you have decided to R so those kind of posts are detrimental to your R.








> I would also suggest that you only read the posters that have some success in R and that success has been evident for years


.



> By Joker
> Kev should educate himself as a means of what not to do as well as what to look out for.


It is probably safe to assume that some BSs that have a successful R for years are quite aware of what to look out for. As long as the posters do not violate what Gus said above then other posters could probably help in this area also.


----------



## wmn1

I keep reading some posts above about suggesting what to read here and what not to. My opinion is different. I think the posters here who are suffering need to read it all. There are good arguments on both sides of the issue. Sometimes it's tough love on one side and sometimes it's a$$ kissing on the other. I think some on the pro-R crowd (SOME) here is trying to tune out the pro-D crowd as if the pro-R crowd are right all the time. Some cases are deserving of R (though I couldn't), some are deserving of D and what have you. But sometimes someone who has an agenda tilted one way or another is well served to listen to both sides in order to properly think about their situation and also to protect themselves. Most here have been through the same thing, some have different outcomes and some dealt with it differently. 

I have noticed that Kev responds mostly to those promoting R, and in this thread, I haven't seen a whole lot of WW bashing. That's up to him, maybe his way of self affirmation. And it seems that R will work in this case. Good for him. 

However, any poster on this board who advocates tunnel vision is not always helping the OP.

That's all I will say for now or for this thread unless I get a wise a$$ remark back.


----------



## wmn1

violating once. I haven't seen anyone bashing on kev's decision to R in a while here so it seems that some are staging an argument that is not occurring. I think everyone here supports Kev.

So what's the point ???


----------



## ConanHub

Come on guys. Kev is a big enough boy to have already picked through enough posts to get as much help as he already has obtained.

I am perpetually amused at posters that say "listen" to me but not them. If your post has worth, it will stand. 

I might question or disagree with another poster but to say they need be ignored is pretty arrogant.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

wmn1 said:


> violating once. I haven't seen anyone bashing on kev's decision to R in a while here so it seems that some are staging an argument that is not occurring. I think everyone here supports Kev.
> 
> So what's the point ???


Read my mind! Creepy!!&#55357;&#56885;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Amplexor

wmn1 said:


> That's all I will say for now or for this thread unless I get a wise a$$ remark back.


The forum software does not censor the term "wise ass".


----------



## ConanHub

Amplexor said:


> The forum software does not censor the term "wise ass".


LOL! Dollar signs on an ass are always double entendre!&#55357;&#56833;&#55357;&#56841;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sidney2718

GusPolinski said:


> I'm reading it as less of a dressing down and more of a "if you want to reconcile, these are the things that you need to be willing to not do" statement.
> 
> Now... if the MC is too willing to rugsweep the affair (after all, that's THE reason that they're in this situation to begin with), or she's _too_ quick to tell Kev's FWW what she should and shouldn't tolerate, then she's probably not the right MC for the job. Or, TBH, any "job" involving a post-affair marital reconciliation.
> 
> Oh, and BTW, turnera...
> 
> Mrs. Gus told me yesterday that she wants a weed-eater for Valentine's Day.
> 
> :lol: :rofl:


You going to get her a goat?

I read the MC bit slightly differently. I read it as Kev continually coming back to the fact of the affair while the MC was trying to get at more basic problems between them. 

IF I am right, I think it perfectly reasonable behavior on the part of the MC. Certainly with Kev's wife wanting to talk about the affair, it will be talked about.


----------



## wmn1

I was almost sure to be censored on that one Amp. I bet the software just got caught up lol


----------



## IIJokerII

Amplexor said:


> The forum software does not censor the term "wise ass".


 Can't we have a vulgarity section here. Given the subject matter it seems that profanity is not only appropriate but also required.


----------



## IIJokerII

Mr Blunt said:


> t is probably safe to assume that some BSs that have a successful R for years are quite aware of what to look out for. As long as the posters do not violate what Gus said above then other posters could probably help in this area also.[/COLOR]


 Success is in the eye of the beholder. I too once thought I had a successful R years ago during my wife's EA, possible PA, with her ex BF. I say during rather than after since I was unarmed with the knowledge or opinions garnished from here to know better. 

I had no disclosure, no transparency, no proof it was over. Only my faith or wanting to believe her to go on. Afraid of losing the marriage I dared not risk any friction or conflict and yet we "Made" it. But the truth was I was plan B and "Won" out due to the OM not going thru with his Divorce, as well as the strong possibility of her trying to bait him with being pregnant with his Child which unbeknownst to her he had a vasectomy. This proved to him she was a liar and he seemed to have broken it off. Of course I got the who noble truth version where she CHOSE to end it and not go thru with it....uh huh.

Anyway, had I been armed with the tools and knowledge I have obtained over the last year then My marriage would have ended back in 2007 with far less significant lasting division of assets. Yes I had a lot of good times after our "R". But it wasn't real and all this time I, my marriage, was vulnerable to an intrusion. 

So by this it would make sense that if Kev reads about all the good stories and good endings, not to be bitter, but he will be blinded by the "Other" side of the equation.


----------



## vellocet

> *IC and MC have advised me to stop all activity on TAM *


In answer to the original title, but of course.

Truth and experience would hinder their efforts to make you the bad guy and do all the legwork to fix what your wife started.

They don't care about who is in the wrong or who has the most work to do in R. They only care that R happens, no matter if you end up coming out of it unsatisfied.

I also sense some bias. IC and MC male or female? And I wonder if either of them cheated at any point, therefore relating to your wife.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *By wmn1*
> I think some on the pro-R crowd (SOME) here is trying to tune out the pro-D crowd as if the pro-R crowd are right all the time.
> However, any poster on this board who advocates tunnel vision is not always helping the OP.


Kev, the OP has made his decsion very clear SEVERAL TIMES. Kev is going to try the R!

The pro-D crowd needs to respect Kev's decsion and tune out of this thread with their pro-D posts

This issue about Kev wanting to R has nothing to do with tunnel vision but has a LOT to do with RESPECT for Kev's decsion!


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Originally Posted by wmn1
> violating once. I haven't seen anyone bashing on kev's decision to R in a while here so it seems that some are staging an argument that is not occurring. I think everyone here supports Kev.
> 
> So what's the point ???
> 
> By Conanhub
> Read my mind! Creepy!!


LESS THAN 24 hours ago a poster, Greywolf, stated that Kev's wife did not deserve sharing good things with Kev. Then Graywolf stated " I would get a divorce...."

That sounds a lot like a post that is not helping Kev with his strong decsion to R.


By Greywolf2
If I were in your shoes it would all boil down to my wife not deserving the above after what she had done. She doesn’t deserve it at all. The question is by depriving her of it are you also depriving yourself of too much. I would get a divorce because I couldn’t handle it. But maybe you can.


----------



## ConanHub

I was referencing a different point wmn1 was making. Should have specified.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## IIJokerII

Mr Blunt said:


> LESS THAN 24 hours ago a poster, Greywolf, stated that Kev's wife did not deserve sharing good things with Kev. Then Graywolf stated " I would get a divorce...."
> 
> That sounds a lot like a post that is not helping Kev with his strong decsion to R.
> 
> 
> By Greywolf2
> If I were in your shoes it would all boil down to my wife not deserving the above after what she had done. She doesn’t deserve it at all. The question is by depriving her of it are you also depriving yourself of too much. I would get a divorce because I couldn’t handle it. But maybe you can.


 Well what is fueling his decision to R. Chump lady has an article about just this kind of scenario. I do believe in R, but lets hope it is for the right reasons, and not the most convenient ones.


----------



## Chaparral

GusPolinski said:


> I'm reading it as less of a dressing down and more of a "if you want to reconcile, these are the things that you need to be willing to not do" statement.
> 
> Now... if the MC is too willing to rugsweep the affair (after all, that's THE reason that they're in this situation to begin with), or she's _too_ quick to tell Kev's FWW what she should and shouldn't tolerate, then she's probably not the right MC for the job. Or, TBH, any "job" involving a post-affair marital reconciliation.
> 
> Oh, and BTW, turnera...
> 
> Mrs. Gus told me yesterday that she wants a weed-eater for Valentine's Day.
> 
> :lol: :rofl:


I'm not sure if you ever learned to walk like an Indian when you were young, but know this. ITS A TRAP!!!!!!!! There better be something romantic tied to that weedeater.


----------



## GusPolinski

Chaparral said:


> I'm not sure if you ever learned to walk like an Indian when you were young, but know this. ITS A TRAP!!!!!!!! There better be something romantic tied to that weedeater.


Oh, don't worry... the roses and chocolate-covered strawberries are on the way as well.


----------



## wmn1

Mr Blunt said:


> Kev, the OP has made his decsion very clear SEVERAL TIMES. Kev is going to try the R!
> 
> The pro-D crowd needs to respect Kev's decsion and tune out of this thread with their pro-D posts
> 
> This issue about Kev wanting to R has nothing to do with tunnel vision but has a LOT to do with RESPECT for Kev's decsion!


Ok, let me be very clear here. 

1) The Pro-D crowd stopped preaching D a long time ago. I don't know what you are reading but I have seen nothing but support for the guy recently.

2) You go back over tons of posts and cherry picked one by Graywolf in which you turned the meaning of his post around to make it seem negative when it wasn't. It was clear that he was saying that while he couldn't reconcile if it was him, not reconciling in Kingwood's case could lead to Kingwood depriving himself. Therefore, the ultimate intention of Graywolf's post was to support. You missed that bigtime.

3) Sorry but just because you don't agree with people doesn't mean that they should cower in the shadows and be afraid to speak their mind.

4) When I referenced 'tunnel vision', I was referring to a situation where one only takes in what they want to hear and not all sides. If someone came on here and was hell bent on divorce, I am sure you would be preaching them to be patient and to 'consider all options'. I would support such a statement. If I was betrayed again, I would want to hear everything because knowledge is power. Putting people on 'ignore' should really occur when someone is hazing someone or stalking them on these boards. I don't know what you are looking at but it's not occurring here. Again, Blunt, I think you are picking a fight that is not happening.

5) Personally, I have had nothing but respect for Kingwood's decision and decided this a long time ago. In other threads, I didn't hold back. In this thread I did because his WW went through a period of time where there was a lot of pain and due to that and Kingwood's actions to protect himself and keep her out of the home, and based on his decision to R, I thought it would be a successful R from the getgo if he decided to do that. Based on these beliefs, why would I argue against something which I was not opposed to ?

Again, where you come up with the theory that the pro-D crowd is blinding Kingwood somehow, is crazy.

I just read the last couple hundred posts in his prior thread and the 140 here. No wonder why you cherry picked only one post. It was probably the only one you could find from the regulars here and you had to twisted the meaning of it to make a point which is easily debunked.


----------



## wmn1

IIJokerII said:


> Blunt, as much as it can be detrimental to hearing about all of the "Downer" stories it is also helpful to be a realist in this matter. If you went to Amazon and saw nothing but 5 star ratings on every product rated by their customers one might suspect that an influential suggestion is at hand.
> 
> TAM offers the other side of the perspective. For every successful story here there are ten failures to attach to them. Kev should educate himself as a means of what not to do as well as what to look out for. He may notice something odd about his wife's behavior that can and from the sound of it will be masked by his MC as just her way of doing things or dealing with things. He can also learn from others about how to not fold like a tent in the face of adversity, which is why this thread exists to begin with, reflective perceptual opinion. Kev had doubts about this and unlike a lamb to slaughter he chose to express his MC/IC's desire for exclusion TAM.
> 
> Again, this place can and unfortunately often does breed animosity, but it is derived from real events. The only ones who do not get immunity of suggestion after logging off from here is ourselves from ourselves. Choices must be made, tough ones at that. I, like Kev, have high hopes he and his Wife can recover as it is possible to do so as I believe nearly everyone deserves a second chance, so long as the offended is able or willing to offer one. In time Kevin like the few others who have recovered will come to no longer need this place for guidance, but for now, another view point is needed to resist the notions of these counselors and the general public consensus of their mishandling of his Wife's responsibility of this matter, lest we forget, the one who did in fact introduce this problem to begin with.


:iagree:

best post of this thread IMO


----------



## NextTimeAround

In medicine (physical health), you are advised to get a second opinion.

Why should it be any different in mental health?


----------



## KingwoodKev

Thanks everyone. Wednesday nights are MC nights. I am going to tell our MC that I understand that the PA itself should not be the only thing we focus on but that I do need to focus on it somewhat. There are questions I need answered and I don't want my feelings spared.

Our chats by phone are actually proving to be more productive recently. She didn't want to get into gory details earlier because she didn't want me to think of her like that. Like those women we used to make fun of or feel superior to. I told her that I couldn't possibly have thought less of her for the last couple years so she might as well cleanse her soul and tell me every little detail. They're personal questions between she and I so I won't post the details but most of you probably know the exact types of things I needed to know. Some of them were painful enough that she can only answer over the phone and not during MC because she says she's too ashamed to say these things out loud and to my face.

I will tell you this. I know she's remorseful. I've seen the pain. I know she understands what she did. I know she has suffered for her actions and has done everything I said I needed.

My rage is gone. My hate is gone. My trust is not back. I'm still not ready for her to come back to our house/our bed. Instead of being disgusted by the very sight or sound of her I now look forward to our nightly chats. We have silly phone chats like back when we were dating. The mental movies are decreasing in frequency but when they hit they hit hard. 

Overall, life is better these days. I'll keep working on it. Thanks again to everyone who has shared their experiences and lessons learned with me.


----------



## ConanHub

Here is to your improved health and the health of your WW and your very special daughter! Cheers!!&#55357;&#56833;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

Just curious. Obviously no justification, but were there marital issues pre A? It sounds like a life that most of us long for but she tossed it. Did she believe there were issues and if so, are they valid issues?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Is she having nightly, or at least weekly, phone chats with her daughter? Are you waiting until daughter's in bed before you have these calls?


----------



## wmn1

KingwoodKev said:


> Thanks everyone. Wednesday nights are MC nights. I am going to tell our MC that I understand that the PA itself should not be the only thing we focus on but that I do need to focus on it somewhat. There are questions I need answered and I don't want my feelings spared.
> 
> Our chats by phone are actually proving to be more productive recently. She didn't want to get into gory details earlier because she didn't want me to think of her like that. Like those women we used to make fun of or feel superior to. I told her that I couldn't possibly have thought less of her for the last couple years so she might as well cleanse her soul and tell me every little detail. They're personal questions between she and I so I won't post the details but most of you probably know the exact types of things I needed to know. Some of them were painful enough that she can only answer over the phone and not during MC because she says she's too ashamed to say these things out loud and to my face.
> 
> I will tell you this. I know she's remorseful. I've seen the pain. I know she understands what she did. I know she has suffered for her actions and has done everything I said I needed.
> 
> My rage is gone. My hate is gone. My trust is not back. I'm still not ready for her to come back to our house/our bed. Instead of being disgusted by the very sight or sound of her I now look forward to our nightly chats. We have silly phone chats like back when we were dating. The mental movies are decreasing in frequency but when they hit they hit hard.
> 
> Overall, life is better these days. I'll keep working on it. Thanks again to everyone who has shared their experiences and lessons learned with me.


progress is good. Sometimes slow but slow is good too. The most important thing is that it's right and I am glad that she is stepping to the plate so far. And good for you regarding the MC and that BS line she gave you last week. You need to resolve the affair or else counseling will be hollow. Keep up the good work Kingwood


----------



## KingwoodKev

ConanHub said:


> Just curious. Obviously no justification, but were there marital issues pre A? It sounds like a life that most of us long for but she tossed it. Did she believe there were issues and if so, are they valid issues?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We've been together since we were 18. Married at 19. She's only known our life together and she loved it. She turned 45 and kind of freaked out. Had major panic attacks and depression. A textbook midlife crisis. She has stated over and over that I did nothing wrong. I communicated with her, loved her, respected her, gave her attention all the time, etc. We had a marriage that others told us they envied. What they were looking for.

She was in this anguished mental state when the opportunity to cheat came along and she did something she never thought she would. She entered into a PA that allowed her an escape from her perfect life, if that makes sense.

I have asked over and over in therapy tell me what I did wrong. Tell me what I have to change. Once she actually said "don't be so good to me." The rest of the time she says I did nothing wrong, I was a dream husband, we had a dream life, and that this thing was 100% her fault, 100% her stupidity. She has said she doesn't deserve her family and good life and would understand if we never want to see her again but has begged all our forgiveness (me, the kids, her/my family). She has also done everything I have asked in order to proceed with R.

I understand that the time is right for me to man up, take the lead, and put my family back together. I've woken up from my zombie state(thanks to TAM). I've set my rage aside. I'm armed with knowledge of how to proceed (thanks to TAM). I'm willing to do all I need to do to R since she has proven she's willing to do all she needs to do.


----------



## vellocet

Very well Kev. I wish you luck and hope the MC doesn't try to make you out to be a jackass. If she does, then she needs to be fired.

Question, in talking with your wife, has she stated the things she is going to do, or not do, to prove to you it won't happen again?

Is she saying things like refraining from particular activities that would make it easier to cheat, etc? (i.e. going out for drinks, partying, being alone with other men, etc)



> She turned 45 and kind of freaked out. Had major panic attacks and depression. A textbook midlife crisis.


And how do you know if she is over this "crisis"? Ask the MC how you can be assured she won't get the itch again? MC probably won't have an answer for it, or try to dance around it, but it gets the idea across.


----------



## ConanHub

Thanks for the answer. I guess some people really have a shyt bomb just go off in their heads.

She might have some insight into the don't treat her so good thing. There is a strange attraction for a bit of "bad boy" in a husband.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## KingwoodKev

turnera said:


> Is she having nightly, or at least weekly, phone chats with her daughter? Are you waiting until daughter's in bed before you have these calls?


Not yet. Our daughter just got accepted into an early college high school. She'll do 4 years in high school like normal but will also attend college courses so that when she graduates she'll have a high school diploma and associates degree.

We were so proud of her and she talked to her mom on the phone about it for a few minutes. Their first real conversation in over a year. I saw my daughter let her guard down a little bit and chat with mom. Then she realized she had done that and put the wall back up and abruptly told her she had to go. That is progress. We'll get there.


----------



## drifting on

KingwoodKev said:


> Not yet. Our daughter just got accepted into an early college high school. She'll do 4 years in high school like normal but will also attend college courses so that when she graduates she'll have a high school diploma and associates degree.
> 
> We were so proud of her and she talked to her mom on the phone about it for a few minutes. Their first real conversation in over a year. I saw my daughter let her guard down a little bit and chat with mom. Then she realized she had done that and put the wall back up and abruptly told her she had to go. That is progress. We'll get there.




KingwoodKev

I applaud your efforts with your handling of this difficult situation. Reconciliation is the most difficult work I have done, and with children involved the task is that much harder. You have demonstrated to your children of how to deal with difficult situations with decency and tact. This isn't to say you haven't struggled, we all have, but your perseverance is inspiring. I wish you peace and happiness.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By mwn1
> 4) When I referenced 'tunnel vision', I was referring to a situation where one only takes in what they want to hear and not all sides. If someone came on here and was hell bent on divorce, I am sure you would be preaching them to be patient and to 'consider all options'. I would support such a statement. If I was betrayed again, I would want to hear everything because knowledge is power. Putting people on 'ignore' should really occur when someone is hazing someone or stalking them on these boards. I don't know what you are looking at but it's not occurring here. Again, Blunt, I think you are picking a fight that is not happening.



I am just going to comment on your above post because I do not want us to go on and on about something that I think that we can clear up. 

I agree with you about your "tunnel Vision" as you have described above. Where I disagree is " where one only takes in what they want to hear and not all sides" In Kev's case he made it clear that he does not want to hear certian kinds of posts so those kinds of posts that are considered "all sides" that are opposite of what Kev has stated he does not want should respect Kev's statements. Now I do not think you were referring to those posters but I am.






> If someone came on here and was hell bent on divorce, I am sure you would be preaching them to be patient and to 'consider all options'.


If that person that is "hell bent on diovorce" stated that he did not wnat to hear the opposite I WOULD NOT be posting to him the opposite.

You are right wmn1, the posts that Kev does not want are not happening on this thread. I used this thread to make a strong statement about posters that will make posts that are the opposite of what the OP has made clear is not wanted and this happens all the time. My strong post may have not been best fit here on htis thread but I think it needed to be said. Again, allthough those unwanted posts are not prevalent in this thread they are in a LOT of other threads and I make no apologies for making my strong statements.

When I see someone that has a good chance at R, and know that the anti R crowd are reading, I am going to take that opportunity to say something that I think needs to be said.

wmn1, now that we have both clarified our point a bit more maybe we are not that far apart on our positions. In any case, at least we are both supporting Kev.



PS....did kev remove one of his earlier threads?


----------



## BWBill

Obviously you love your wife and want to reconcile. I wish you both the best.

I would suggest you stop asking the following question:

_I have asked over and over in therapy tell me what I did wrong._

If she's truly remorseful then your are getting the answer she should be giving.

Tell her that there is no going back to the old marriage. The damage to you, the relationship, the daughter is too great. Ask her how she sees the future marriage if you are to be together again.


----------



## MattMatt

> Re: IC and MC have advised me to stop all activity on TAM


What *ALL* activity on TAM? 

Including 

General Relationship Discussion?

Long Term Success in Marriage?

Financial Problems in Marriage?

The Family & Parenting Forums?

Relationships and Spirituality?

Self-Help Marriage & Relationship Programs?

Experiences in Counseling?

The Social Spot?

Politics and Religion?

They have checked out *all* the forums and sub-forums at TAM? Really?  No! Not really!

They are like lawyers who recommend not going to the press about an incident that deserves press exposure.

They want a nice, quiet life. 

It seems to me that your counsellors don't want you to heal, they don't in particular really want to save your marriage, they really, first and foremost, *don't want you to make waves!*


----------



## KingwoodKev

MattMatt said:


> What *ALL* activity on TAM?
> 
> Including
> 
> General Relationship Discussion?
> 
> Long Term Success in Marriage?
> 
> Financial Problems in Marriage?
> 
> The Family & Parenting Forums?
> 
> Relationships and Spirituality?
> 
> Self-Help Marriage & Relationship Programs?
> 
> Experiences in Counseling?
> 
> The Social Spot?
> 
> Politics and Religion?
> 
> They have checked out *all* the forums and sub-forums at TAM? Really?  No! Not really!
> 
> They are like lawyers who recommend not going to the press about an incident that deserves press exposure.
> 
> They want a nice, quiet life.
> 
> It seems to me that your counsellors don't want you to heal, they don't in particular really want to save your marriage, they really, first and foremost, *don't want you to make waves!*


I had told them both about finding TAM and CWI in particular. They both warned me that at this point in the process I should stay off all sites like this. Their reasons were that most people here are not trained to give advice and that there would probably be a lot of bitter people who would want to stoke my anger with my wife because of things that had happened in their own relationships.


----------



## MattMatt

KingwoodKev said:


> I had told them both about finding TAM and CWI in particular. They both warned me that at this point in the process I should stay off all sites like this. Their reasons were that most people here are not trained to give advice and that there would probably be a lot of bitter people who would want to stoke my anger with my wife because of things that had happened in their own relationships.


Some here are trained to give advice. 

However, that's not the point.

TAM is not specifically about getting trained therapy. It is a support group of people who have also been through the mill.

Are they against all support groups? Or just this particular type of support group?:scratchhead:


----------



## naiveonedave

KingwoodKev said:


> I had told them both about finding TAM and CWI in particular. They both warned me that at this point in the process I should stay off all sites like this. Their reasons were that most people here are not trained to give advice and that there would probably be a lot of bitter people who would want to stoke my anger with my wife because of things that had happened in their own relationships.


I think that is a valid point, choose what you listen to wisely.


----------



## lordmayhem

KingwoodKev said:


> I understand that the time is right for me to man up, take the lead, and put my family back together. I've woken up from my zombie state(thanks to TAM). I've set my rage aside. I'm armed with knowledge of how to proceed (thanks to TAM). I'm willing to do all I need to do to R since she has proven she's willing to do all she needs to do.


KingwoodKev, try looking at TAM/CWI this way. 

I've been here a while and read hundreds of stories. And you know what? From reading all these stories, I've realized that there are many, many others who are worse situations. So I'm sure you've had the chance to read many other stories like I have. Sure, some stories may trigger you. But you can read for yourself, that in all actuality, you're in better position to R than many others.

Imagine, if you will, that your WW is like Luvmyjava's. That person is pure evil. So take the chance to see through the stories here, that you've got it better compared to many of the horror stories that you read here. Like they say, no matter how bad your situation is, there is always someone in a worse situation than yours.


----------



## Dogbert

Not to disparage the counselors advise, but the CWI is like a living laboratory and though the stories may differ, they often share common denominators that when you identify them, you can then make very close to accurate predictions with regards to your situation. And unlike a counselor who has never experience the gut wrenching ordeal of betrayal, you have fellow human beings with whom you can commiserate and who can help you in believing that there is a better future, married or divorced.


----------



## turnera

KingwoodKev said:


> I had told them both about finding TAM and CWI in particular. They both warned me that at this point in the process I should stay off all sites like this. Their reasons were that most people here are not trained to give advice and that there would probably be a lot of bitter people who would want to stoke my anger with my wife because of things that had happened in their own relationships.


In other words, without actually READING the threads here, they just decided it's a b*tchfest blog site.

If it comes up again, you should invite them here, and also point out the most of the regular 'advisors' have helped hundreds of people and have thus built up a 'plan' for what works and what doesn't work to get a cheater to quit, to learn remorse, and to get back on the right path. That they use statistics in the sense that they observe that Nice doesn't get a cheater back, strength does, and the key steps needed to repair a marriage. You've already done pretty much what's always advised here - expose, put her at a disadvantage, be willing to walk away, until she gets it. Point that out.


----------



## ConanHub

Dogbert said:


> Not to disparage the counselors advise, but the CWI is like a living laboratory and though the stories may differ, they often share common denominators that when you identify them, you can then make very close to accurate predictions with regards to your situation. And unlike a counselor who has never experience the gut wrenching ordeal of betrayal, you have fellow human beings with whom you can commiserate and who can help you in believing that there is a better future, married or divorced.


Ding!Ding!Ding! We have a winner! MCs should read online support groups like TAM. Free experience.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dogbert

ConanHub said:


> Ding!Ding!Ding! We have a winner! MCs should read online support groups like TAM. Free experience.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok, where's my prize chew toy?


----------



## ConanHub

Dogbert said:


> Ok, where's my prize chew toy?


P.M. Me a P.O. box and it'll be in the mail. &#55357;&#56841;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wmn1

Mr Blunt said:


> I am just going to comment on your above post because I do not want us to go on and on about something that I think that we can clear up.
> 
> I agree with you about your "tunnel Vision" as you have described above. Where I disagree is " where one only takes in what they want to hear and not all sides" In Kev's case he made it clear that he does not want to hear certian kinds of posts so those kinds of posts that are considered "all sides" that are opposite of what Kev has stated he does not want should respect Kev's statements. Now I do not think you were referring to those posters but I am.
> 
> It's all good MrBlunt. I agree, we aren't far off. I am just an 'all information' guy and while I know Kingwood is going to get things in good shape again, I just want him to tread carefully in case it doesn't. Stupid or unexpected things happen and getting caught flatfooted is the worst thing. However, he's a Marine and I am sure that's in his mentality as well. I counted only maybe 3 posts in this thread that may have been counterproductive but Kev does read them all as he said and that's a good thing.
> 
> We are all supportive of this guy and he's doing a great job. He needs to keep it up.
> 
> I think pretty much everyone here is supporting him, or should be. I think this thread is interesting because for once the WW isn't getting hammered, the MC is, and after that statement last week, wow !!
> 
> I am interested in whether Kingwood can change the dynamic tonight. He needs to for himself and I have every confidence he can.
> 
> Regarding you, Blunt, I have a lot of respect for you and none of it was personal. Not at all.
> 
> I am hoping for a feel good story at the end of this.
> 
> I do think a thread disappeared. Maybe we're wrong ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If that person that is "hell bent on diovorce" stated that he did not wnat to hear the opposite I WOULD NOT be posting to him the opposite.
> 
> You are right wmn1, the posts that Kev does not want are not happening on this thread. I used this thread to make a strong statement about posters that will make posts that are the opposite of what the OP has made clear is not wanted and this happens all the time. My strong post may have not been best fit here on htis thread but I think it needed to be said. Again, allthough those unwanted posts are not prevalent in this thread they are in a LOT of other threads and I make no apologies for making my strong statements.
> 
> When I see someone that has a good chance at R, and know that the anti R crowd are reading, I am going to take that opportunity to say something that I think needs to be said.
> 
> wmn1, now that we have both clarified our point a bit more maybe we are not that far apart on our positions. In any case, at least we are both supporting Kev.
> 
> 
> 
> PS....did kev remove one of his earlier threads?


----------



## 3putt

KingwoodKev said:


> I had told them both about finding TAM and CWI in particular. They both warned me that at this point in the process I should stay off all sites like this. *Their reasons were that most people here are not trained to give advice *and that there would probably be a lot of bitter people who would want to stoke my anger with my wife because of things that had happened in their own relationships.


Talk about ironic? You should tell them we feel the same way about most MCs and ICs dispensing advice on subjects, like infidelity, that they usually know absolutely nothing about.

Goodness....pot meet kettle?


----------



## turnera

KingwoodKev said:


> Not yet. Our daughter just got accepted into an early college high school. She'll do 4 years in high school like normal but will also attend college courses so that when she graduates she'll have a high school diploma and associates degree.
> 
> We were so proud of her and she talked to her mom on the phone about it for a few minutes. Their first real conversation in over a year. I saw my daughter let her guard down a little bit and chat with mom. Then she realized she had done that and put the wall back up and abruptly told her she had to go. That is progress. We'll get there.


Are you waiting until she goes to bed, to talk to your wife? Or is she sitting there watching you flirting and conversing with the person she hates?


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## vellocet

Kev, hopefully you don't get ganged up on in the counseling session tonight. Good luck.

Let us know what that quack says.


----------



## Healer

lordmayhem said:


> And also for you to keep coming back so they can make their money.


This place is dangerous - for their pocketbooks. You decide to end R and divorce, they've lost a client. Simple as that.


----------



## MattMatt

Healer said:


> This place is dangerous - for their pocketbooks. You decide to end R and divorce, they've lost a client. Simple as that.


Now, see, you just proved them right!


----------



## SadSamIAm

It sounds to me like you guys don't need a MC. Your marriage was great until your wife's Mid Life Crisis. Your wife has told you that there is nothing you need to do. That you were the dream husband. And from all accounts, your wife was the perfect wife before the affair.

You both want to R. You both know what made things work before. 

You know your feelings and it seems like your wife understands your feelings. I think all you need to do is set boundaries for your wife. Things that will allow you to feel safe and will allow you to start to trust again (passwords, telling you where she is, etc.).

I can only see this MC screwing things up.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

not in answer to anyone's post here. but I think of MCs as almost always wanting to save the marriage, rather than considering the best interests of each individual involved. not often trained how to do that, perhaps? other than a few good ones perhaps.

But an IC should know better. holy sh*t! what do they want the BS to do with all their resentment and anger?!

Is the WS 100% responsible for their cheating behavior? anyone can go round after round on that......
one should simply make it clear to one's spouse, from the very beginning, that you will *hold them* 100% responsible. that's much harder to misunderstand IMO


----------



## ConanHub

If they do their job and make the woman face who she allowed herself to become, why and what? Then show her where she needs to change. Feeling like shyt for destroying two families is a good beginning but does nothing to solve why she gave in to her crotch monster to begin with. Feeling bad and two years of purgatory do nothing to change your nature from worthless to worthwhile. That takes great effort and proactive involvement.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## IIJokerII

ConanHub said:


> If they do their job and make the woman face who she allowed herself to become, why and what? Then show her where she needs to change. Feeling like shyt for destroying two families is a good beginning but does nothing to solve why she gave in to her crotch monster to begin with. Feeling bad and two years of purgatory do nothing to change your nature from worthless to worthwhile. That takes great effort and proactive involvement.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Full of win!!!!


----------



## FrazzledSadHusband

I have learned way more on this site, both in reading posts and receiving PM's from people than I EVER learned in counseling. Thank you to everyone posting on TAM!!!


----------



## arbitrator

Healer said:


> This place is dangerous - for their pocketbooks. You decide to end R and divorce, they've lost a client. Simple as that.


*Trust me, Brother! With those folks, "It's all about the money!" Ain't it? 

Just cross their palms with enough of your hard-earned greenbacks, and they'll find themselves a way to agree with your viewpoint on just about anything!*


----------



## G.J.

I wonder how it unfolded
if they flirted to begin with or he just started to pay her compliments or did she initiate the the encounters or did it just start for sex etc
Everything kev has posted seems to say it should never have had a chance to even start
so how did it?


----------



## Chaparral

Look at the top of the page to see who runs this website. Looks to me like a counselor's group. The Family & Marriage Counseling Directory


----------



## sidney2718

GusPolinski said:


> Oh, don't worry... the roses and chocolate-covered strawberries are on the way as well.


What? No goat? I am so disappointed...


----------



## sidney2718

3putt said:


> Talk about ironic? You should tell them we feel the same way about most MCs and ICs dispensing advice on subjects, like infidelity, that they usually know absolutely nothing about.
> 
> Goodness....pot meet kettle?


Why would you think an experienced MC would have no experience with infidelity? Some are actually very well trained.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

These posts made me cry tonight hearing the pain of early reconciliation. Hoping for strong reconciliation for you both. 



KingwoodKev said:


> We've been together since we were 18. Married at 19. She's only known our life together and she loved it. She turned 45 and kind of freaked out. Had major panic attacks and depression. A textbook midlife crisis. She has stated over and over that I did nothing wrong. I communicated with her, loved her, respected her, gave her attention all the time, etc. We had a marriage that others told us they envied. What they were looking for.
> 
> She was in this anguished mental state when the opportunity to cheat came along and she did something she never thought she would. She entered into a PA that allowed her an escape from her perfect life, if that makes sense.
> 
> I have asked over and over in therapy tell me what I did wrong. Tell me what I have to change. Once she actually said "don't be so good to me." The rest of the time she says I did nothing wrong, I was a dream husband, we had a dream life, and that this thing was 100% her fault, 100% her stupidity. She has said she doesn't deserve her family and good life and would understand if we never want to see her again but has begged all our forgiveness (me, the kids, her/my family). She has also done everything I have asked in order to proceed with R.
> 
> I understand that the time is right for me to man up, take the lead, and put my family back together. I've woken up from my zombie state(thanks to TAM). I've set my rage aside. I'm armed with knowledge of how to proceed (thanks to TAM). I'm willing to do all I need to do to R since she has proven she's willing to do all she needs to do.





KingwoodKev said:


> Thanks everyone. Wednesday nights are MC nights. I am going to tell our MC that I understand that the PA itself should not be the only thing we focus on but that I do need to focus on it somewhat. There are questions I need answered and I don't want my feelings spared.
> 
> Our chats by phone are actually proving to be more productive recently. She didn't want to get into gory details earlier because she didn't want me to think of her like that. Like those women we used to make fun of or feel superior to. I told her that I couldn't possibly have thought less of her for the last couple years so she might as well cleanse her soul and tell me every little detail. They're personal questions between she and I so I won't post the details but most of you probably know the exact types of things I needed to know. Some of them were painful enough that she can only answer over the phone and not during MC because she says she's too ashamed to say these things out loud and to my face.
> 
> I will tell you this. I know she's remorseful. I've seen the pain. I know she understands what she did. I know she has suffered for her actions and has done everything I said I needed.
> 
> My rage is gone. My hate is gone. My trust is not back. I'm still not ready for her to come back to our house/our bed. Instead of being disgusted by the very sight or sound of her I now look forward to our nightly chats. We have silly phone chats like back when we were dating. The mental movies are decreasing in frequency but when they hit they hit hard.
> 
> Overall, life is better these days. I'll keep working on it. Thanks again to everyone who has shared their experiences and lessons learned with me.


----------



## 3putt

sidney2718 said:


> Why would you think an experienced MC would have no experience with infidelity? Some are actually very well trained.


Experienced in recovery from infidelity is the question. History on this board, and others, strongly suggests that very few marriage counselors have any clue on how to approach this subject in a productive manner.

Sad, but true.


----------



## KingwoodKev

3putt said:


> Experienced in recovery from infidelity is the question. History on this board, and others, strongly suggests that very few marriage counselors have any clue on how to approach this subject in a productive manner.
> 
> Sad, but true.


I have to give my wife credit. After our last session she told me that she thinks the MC is letting her off the hook too easy and not respecting things I'm trying to say. I really appreciated that because I was feeling the exact same thing. We're going to shop around for another MC together.


----------



## vellocet

So Kev, maybe you posted something in one of your other threads....but how did the counseling session go?

Did they gang up on you?

Did the MC put it on you?


----------



## KingwoodKev

vellocet said:


> So Kev, maybe you posted something in one of your other threads....but how did the counseling session go?
> 
> Did they gang up on you?
> 
> Did the MC put it on you?


I was kind of proud of my WW. We did go Wednesday night. As usual the MC didn't really want to talk about the affair itself but instead focus on the things "we" (mostly me) need to do to ensure a happy future.

My wife actually cut her off because she could see I was getting frustrated and told her she doesn't think that she (MC) is really hearing what I'm saying. She told her that she's letting her (my wife) off the hook too easily. She was actually defending my pre-affair actions telling her that I was attentive to her needs, supportive of her desires, and all around a great husband and father.

We actually rode there together for the first time. When I was driving her back to her apartment she said "I think we might want to look for another MC. I think this one is a man hater."

I told you guys she was a keeper. She F'd up and she admitted that she's a bad person and knows now that if she is to redeem herself it'll take massive amounts of work. So many cheaters are in denial about what they really are. They think they're good people who have done a bad thing. That's not true. Once you have victimized people to the degree that a cheater does (in some ways worse than death) then you cross the line of "good person doing a bad thing" into a bad person. Only when this self-realization hits, and I was there in MC with her when it hit her which led to a massive outpouring of emotion from her, can you then establish a foundation from which to build on.

We now have that foundation. Am I going in with rose colored glasses? No, not for a second. Do I trust her? Hell no. Do I forgive her? Not quite yet. Do I love her? Yes, can't help that and hope she doesn't use it against me. Am I committed to helping her become a good person again? Yes.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

I have not read this whole thread and I'm only responding to the original post. Since coming here, I have had to take breaks and stay away because while in some ways reading other people's stories encourages me that I'm not alone, it also makes me dwell on the negativity so much more. It makes me obsess over my relationship problems. I've told my IC about the site, and she didn't really comment. She didn't seem to have much of an opinion either way.


----------



## Ripper

I think Fredrick the Great said something to the effect of, all the experience in the world is useless if you fail to draw the correct lesson from it. I would add training in there as well. If it is based on flawed conclusions, it to is useless.

From the stories we get on this site, most of the marriage counseling offered by the "experts" amounts to some form of rugsweeping. From the counselors point of view, it works. The marriage is saved (temporary), the wayward satisfied, and they usually never find out how the betrayed eventually had a meltdown and the couple split later.

Sounds like your wife is wise enough to know that this just can't be buried and has to be dealt with. That is something at least. Whatever her motivations are now, it sounds like she is in it to win it.


----------



## vellocet

KingwoodKev said:


> I was kind of proud of my WW. We did go Wednesday night. As usual the MC didn't really want to talk about the affair itself but instead focus on the things "we" (mostly me) need to do to ensure a happy future.



I agree with the MC that you need to focus on things you both need to make you happy.

But you most certainly CANNOT do that until the affair has been properly dealt with.




> My wife actually cut her off because she could see I was getting frustrated and told her she doesn't think that she (MC) is really hearing what I'm saying. She told her that she's letting her (my wife) off the hook too easily.


I'd still be cautious, but hearing this, she just may be turning you from Plan B back to A.




> She was actually defending my pre-affair actions telling her that I was attentive to her needs, supportive of her desires, and all around a great husband and father.


Well now, that just can't be. Too many WS's here will argue that there just HAD to be something to did to cause your wife to cheat.




> I told you guys she was a keeper. She F'd up and she admitted that she's a bad person and knows now that if she is to redeem herself it'll take massive amounts of work. So many cheaters are in denial about what they really are. They think they're good people who have done a bad thing. That's not true. Once you have victimized people to the degree that a cheater does (in some ways worse than death) then you cross the line of "good person doing a bad thing" into a bad person. Only when this self-realization hits, and I was there in MC with her when it hit her which led to a massive outpouring of emotion from her, can you then establish a foundation from which to build on.
> 
> We now have that foundation. Am I going in with rose colored glasses? No, not for a second. Do I trust her? Hell no. Do I forgive her? Not quite yet. Do I love her? Yes, can't help that and hope she doesn't use it against me. Am I committed to helping her become a good person again? Yes.


Ok, well that sounds like a step in the right direction. Hope it works out for you.

Another MC question, when your wife shut her down, what did the MC say?


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## KingwoodKev

> Another MC question, when your wife shut her down, what did the MC say?


Now that you mention it the MC doesn't really argue back with her when my wife disagrees with her. The MC does, however, push back on me. Maybe my wife's "man hater" assessment is true.


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## vellocet

You need to fire this MC and find a better one.


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## KingwoodKev

vellocet said:


> You need to fire this MC and find a better one.


I think we're going to but that can be tough. It's hard to find a "good" one. I agree with what you and a lot of people here have told me. A large percentage of them want to do a huge rug sweep and move on so they can chalk up a win on their resume.


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## turnera

go to healthgrades.com. They have a fair amount of reviews on there.


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## KingwoodKev

turnera said:


> go to healthgrades.com. They have a fair amount of reviews on there.


Thanks, I'll check it out. One problem I with some sites is they group reviews by Houston, TX. Houston is humongous. I can be in Houston and still over an hour's drive to someone else in Houston. We need N. Houston area.


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## turnera

Tell me about it. Have you tried this site yet? They have a lot of good info on there, don't know about therapists:

HKA Texas is Humble, Kingwood, Atascocita, Texas


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## KingwoodKev

SecondTime'Round said:


> I have not read this whole thread and I'm only responding to the original post. Since coming here, I have had to take breaks and stay away because while in some ways reading other people's stories encourages me that I'm not alone, it also makes me dwell on the negativity so much more. It makes me obsess over my relationship problems. I've told my IC about the site, and she didn't really comment. She didn't seem to have much of an opinion either way.


I agree with all of this. I'm trying to focus only on the positives these days but unrepentant WS's do trigger anger in me. So much denial and rug sweeping. Taking advantage of people who love them to get the selfish life they desire. Oh well. C'est la vie.


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## arbitrator

KingwoodKev said:


> I agree with all of this. I'm trying to focus only on the positives these days but unrepentant WS's do trigger anger in me. So much denial and rug sweeping. Taking advantage of people who love them to get the selfish life they desire. Oh well. C'est la vie.


*Kev: I know that while your Counselor came down on you for participating on a site like TAM, I, conversely, see it as being somewhat therapeutic, in that it allows you to journal, and then to interact, all at the same time!

If I were you, I'd continue with your TAM'ing activities, but what your Counselor doesn't know ain't exactly going to hurt her!

Or you!*


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## KingwoodKev

arbitrator said:


> *Kev: I know that while your Counselor came down on you for participating on a site like TAM, I, conversely, see it as being somewhat therapeutic, in that it allows you to journal, and then to interact, all at the same time!
> 
> If I were you, I'd continue with your TAM'ing activities, but what your Counselor doesn't know ain't exactly going to hurt her!
> 
> Or you!*


Very good point. I'll tell you this. If I hadn't come here my wife and I would still be where we were. I searched google for information about reconciliation. How you know if you should, when is the time, blah blah blah. Several searches kept coming up with posts from this site so I checked it out. Spent a couple days lurking and reading and found so many people who knew exactly how I felt because they had been there. Some of them in even worse situations than mine. It snapped me out of my zombie state and just a few weeks later I'm moving forward. I am moving forward with R but with the newly found confidence of if it doesn't work out then F it, I'm a successful, in shape dude, good dad, honest non-cheating man. Surely there are damn fine women out there who would never cheat. I do love my wife like I can't imagine ever loving another woman but she won't be the end of me. Even posts I wrote just a week or two ago about if she did it again it would kill me. After IC, MC and a lot of self-reflection I've realized I am nuts to think that. If I'm not good enough for her then she can go F herself and have a nice life, I'll be just fine. I think she knows that too which is an important part of R.


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## wmn1

I am sorry about your MC. Your wife is probably right, a man hater. I hate when someone can't put their sexism aside and do what's right for the people they are being paid to help. The vast number of posts last week, including from me, saw this lady as a disaster. Even if your wife had not stepped to the plate, I had a feeling that you would have fired the MC anyway. The nerve of her to blame you for everything and give the wife a free pass even when the wife didn't want it. 

Sadly, I wonder how many guys go into a session like that and buy the BS and rugsweep everything and get screwed over again.

Good for your wife to stand by your side and help shut down the MC. Your wife is proving to be an asset worthy of R and I congratulate you for that. I am sorry she did such a bad thing a few years ago but I am sure with the remorse she has, she will never go there again. Keep up the good work.

Oh btw, I have seen threads with MC who suggest ****** *******, I have seen, even with my own friends, 3 go through MC after being cheated on and the MC blamed all 3 of them. I saw some other crazy threads on surviving infidelity where MCs come out with crazy accusations against the BH. I have very little faith in MC based on what I have read and observed. Maybe the next one you find (and please no more sessions with this nutbag), sit down and tell them point blank that you both have issues that need to be resolved and you had to fire one who attacked you and was biased and both of you need to grow into this relationship and that simply won't happen if one is shunned. Again good for your wife not trying to take advantage of this MC's bias.


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## 3putt

I'm betting those MCs advised Kev to stay away from here because they both knew they would be exposed for their ineptitude.


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## sidney2718

Ripper said:


> I think Fredrick the Great said something to the effect of, all the experience in the world is useless if you fail to draw the correct lesson from it. I would add training in there as well. If it is based on flawed conclusions, it to is useless.
> 
> From the stories we get on this site, most of the marriage counseling offered by the "experts" amounts to some form of rugsweeping. From the counselors point of view, it works. The marriage is saved (temporary), the wayward satisfied, and they usually never find out how the betrayed eventually had a meltdown and the couple split later.
> 
> Sounds like your wife is wise enough to know that this just can't be buried and has to be dealt with. That is something at least. Whatever her motivations are now, it sounds like she is in it to win it.


I take your point. But there is another one. Couples mainly should not go to MC's until they are ready to reconcile. The decision to reconcile depends on BOTH partners, not just the BS.

If the individuals involved want help in deciding to reconcile, and IC is usually a better choice than an MC.

Just my opinion. Others will have different opinions.


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## KingwoodKev

Had a fun Valentine's day with my wife. We didn't go out because I think that would have sent the wrong message at this point. I did invite her into the house for the first time in over a year. My daughter spent the night at a friend's. I grilled us some tasty turkey burgers and we watched Gone Girl. What a weird movie for us to watch! We laughed at the irony of us watching a movie like that on Valentine's Day.

I didn't know it contained adultery but although it disgusted me, I kept it under control. She got really nervous about it and said we can watch something else. I told her not to worry about it.

Nothing "happened" but it's definitely going to soon. We can both feel it. I'm afraid that when it does she'll think that everything is fine now, we're back together. I guess maybe I need to communicate some pre-sex "rules" so that she doesn't consider that the "we're finished working and R is complete" milestone. It seems like a tricky subject to bring up if we're in the moment.


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## larry.gray

I'd advise not bringing it up "in the moment." 
Talk before. Let her know your mind is trending that way.


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## happyman64

Since honesty is the best policy. Why not try this as an intro?

" wife, since we are trying to actively reconcile our marriage can we discuss some boundaries/conditions that I would like in place?"

Since you will both have skin in the game be fair Kevin.

I think as long as both your goals are the same your wife would appreciate the open, honest conversation.

And confirm with her again that your goals are the same.....

HM


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## Suspecting2014

Have Intimacy is a must to try R and doesn't mean that you are rug sweeping, it means that you are more into R (not 100% until you are living together).

I believe you and her are aware that R is a long way and intimacy is part of it but not a guarantee of success, never the less you should talk about how you (both of you) may feel while doing it and after, as having sex could rise some issues and you will have to deal with them.

You can not control how you feel but you can allow yourself to give her the chance that, to rebuild the marriage and fix you. BTW no matter what MC and IC says, it is not and easy job, not a decision but a process where your wife plays a key role.


IMO you should not withhold yourself from her, just be careful. If you are ready to have sex with her, and she is too, just let it happen.


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## Blossom Leigh

sidney2718 said:


> I take your point. But there is another one. Couples mainly should not go to MC's until they are ready to reconcile. The decision to reconcile depends on BOTH partners, not just the BS.
> 
> If the individuals involved want help in deciding to reconcile, and IC is usually a better choice than an MC.
> 
> Just my opinion. Others will have different opinions.


Very much agree... joint counseling with my H was not safe for me for almost six months. We did IC first during that time and at a high frequency. Twice a week for him, every week, once every other week for me. Then we joined together in one of his two weekly sessions while both maintaining IC too.


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## wmn1

KingwoodKev said:


> Had a fun Valentine's day with my wife. We didn't go out because I think that would have sent the wrong message at this point. I did invite her into the house for the first time in over a year. My daughter spent the night at a friend's. I grilled us some tasty turkey burgers and we watched Gone Girl. What a weird movie for us to watch! We laughed at the irony of us watching a movie like that on Valentine's Day.
> 
> I didn't know it contained adultery but although it disgusted me, I kept it under control. She got really nervous about it and said we can watch something else. I told her not to worry about it.
> 
> Nothing "happened" but it's definitely going to soon. We can both feel it. I'm afraid that when it does she'll think that everything is fine now, we're back together. I guess maybe I need to communicate some pre-sex "rules" so that she doesn't consider that the "we're finished working and R is complete" milestone. It seems like a tricky subject to bring up if we're in the moment.


Good for you. I am also glad that you are going to be canning that MC you started out with. Had you stayed, it would have given your wife a better platform to believe that everything is 'fine now' (not that she would believe that but just in case).

You have made so many good moves, you should beproud of your efforts and I am confident things are going to work out from here on.

"Gone Girl' ? Really ? Ouch. My wife and I watched 'Blachhawk Down'. Me for the 10th time, she's never seen it before. Not your typical Valentine's Day movie but just watching the sacrifice these guys made, I never get tired of it


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## bfree

"Sex is the next step in us growing closer. It doesn't mean the journey is complete but it might make getting there a whole lot more fun"


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## KingwoodKev

wmn1 said:


> Good for you. I am also glad that you are going to be canning that MC you started out with. Had you stayed, it would have given your wife a better platform to believe that everything is 'fine now' (not that she would believe that but just in case).
> 
> You have made so many good moves, you should beproud of your efforts and I am confident things are going to work out from here on.
> 
> "Gone Girl' ? Really ? Ouch. My wife and I watched 'Blachhawk Down'. Me for the 10th time, she's never seen it before. Not your typical Valentine's Day movie but just watching the sacrifice these guys made, I never get tired of it



The only right move I had made prior to coming here was the "let them go" and parts of the 180 that I had done by dumb luck. I got her the apartment and said here you go, live your life as free as you want. Screw anyone you want. You're an adult, it's your choice. Do what you want. Then I pretty much had ceased almost all communication for quite a while. As for moving forward I heeded a lot of the advice I got here because I was stuck on rage and hate. I couldn't hate her as much as I wanted to so I hated the OM and every cheater and WS I came across.

I don't feel rage for her anymore but my loathing of WS's is as strong as ever. Like most people I never understood the severity of their crime until I was a victim of it. It's as bad as murder in my book. Worse than murder in some ways because murder victims are out of their misery. This is something that most WS's don't understand or refuse to accept.


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## turnera

Kev, you don't talk much about what you're doing to get your daughter to understand or accept. And now you're saying you're waiting til daughter is out of the house...sounds like you're sneaking around behind your daughter's back. Is this true? If so, is this wise?


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## KingwoodKev

turnera said:


> Kev, you don't talk much about what you're doing to get your daughter to understand or accept. And now you're saying you're waiting til daughter is out of the house...sounds like you're sneaking around behind your daughter's back. Is this true? If so, is this wise?


The two of us see a family therapist. She wants us to invite my wife. I think my daughter is getting closer. I can see that she really misses her mom but she's still really hurt and angry. Usually every time I talk with my wife by phone now she talks to her for a couple minutes. The other day my daughter was texting someone and I asked who. She said mom. Mom had wished her luck in an audition she had for a part in a play the drama classes were putting on. She thanked her. Her spending the night with a friend was pre-planned. She knew that mom was coming over to spend the evening with me.

We both want to talk with her about everything but she's a 13yo girl and any ladies here know that at that age girls are filled with so many emotions already and this really didn't help. She'll end up doing her own R with my wife but it has to take its own path. I can't force my R onto her as if it was hers. This is our family house. My wife can't move back into it until the family invites her.


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## KingwoodKev

I do have an issue. OMW still lives two houses away. She saw us come in yesterday evening to have dinner and watch a movie. Today I got an email from her. Keep in mind she was a very nice lady. Very smart, pretty, funny, a good catch for her husband. He is a douche bag to do what he did.

She has used my shoulder to cry on and as an outlet to vent to for two years. When she speaks of her ex and my wife she wouldn't hold anything back. When I was getting TT'd because my wife was so ashamed she wouldn't give me details, this woman was filling in the blanks because her husband was spilling all the beans. She is his primary source of financial support so he had to try and save that lifeline so he told her everything.

Anyway this email I got is saying that she hopes things work out for me but that she thinks I'm a sap for even talking to "that nasty wh0re" again. She continually calls my wife the most horrible things imaginable and I can't say I blame her. She's emotionally still where I was a year ago. It's a fairly new neighborhood. More houses are getting finished and new people are moving in. She tells everyone she meets that her husband was a total cheating a$$hole and that my wife was his wh0re. New people treat me like I'm dying of cancer and give my wife looks of utter disgust and contempt.

I think I need to tell OMW to back off on my wife but how can I do that? I seriously don't blame her for how she feels. She isn't going to any kind of therapy anymore and she's consumed by bitterness and rage. Still, I can't allow her to continue with the things she's saying about my wife. I guess the easy answer is I can put the house on the market and we can move somewhere not too far away. Houston is huge and there are new subdivisions all over the city. I'd prefer not to do that but again, she's only two houses away and she's poisoning all the neighbors against my wife. How would you proceed with this? Do I tell her to cut it out? I fully understand her feelings and don't want her to think I'm switching sides on this. For a couple years she and I were on the same team. This is another tricky part about this that it seems is on my shoulders. This sucks, I didn't do anything wrong and I keep getting all this sh!t to have to clean up. My wife offered to go to her house and try to talk to her but I advised against it. As I've said in another post I can't guarantee that she wouldn't shoot her dead as soon as she stepped foot on her property. She's the worst case scenario of a woman scorned.


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## wmn1

KingwoodKev said:


> The only right move I had made prior to coming here was the "let them go" and parts of the 180 that I had done by dumb luck. I got her the apartment and said here you go, live your life as free as you want. Screw anyone you want. You're an adult, it's your choice. Do what you want. Then I pretty much had ceased almost all communication for quite a while. As for moving forward I heeded a lot of the advice I got here because I was stuck on rage and hate. I couldn't hate her as much as I wanted to so I hated the OM and every cheater and WS I came across.
> 
> I don't feel rage for her anymore but my loathing of WS's is as strong as ever. Like most people I never understood the severity of their crime until I was a victim of it. It's as bad as murder in my book. Worse than murder in some ways because murder victims are out of their misery. This is something that most WS's don't understand or refuse to accept.


Whether the 180 was by chance or not, it worked and I am glad that it did.

I am glad you are finding peace. 

I agree about your resentment of WS's and the murder comment. Everyone who I know. myself included, who have been betrayed would have rather been beaten into the ground than endure that he11. We all want stability and to be loved. No peace at home ? Then there is no peace. Most WS are not remorseful and many do it again. 

I am glad that you feel that it won't happen again. You deserve your peace. Just please never forget for those other one's on here who are facing it may need your help at some point.


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## turnera

Time to have a talk to OMW. Explain what you've learned here, about how your wife has been 'on hold,' waiting for you for 2 years, and you're taking it very slowly. Then ask for her good wishes. And to stop trashing your wife. 

As for moving, consider moving down to one of the new subdivisions on WLHP. There are 4 or 5 going up there now. And your daughter could go to AHS, which is where DD24 went an, IMO, the best one in the district. It's a good time for the move, as she's getting closer to high school. And still close enough to still have all her friends. Plus, you'll be nearer BW8 and not have to deal with the Kingwood traffic.


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## phillybeffandswiss

KingwoodKev said:


> I think I need to tell OMW to back off on my wife but how can I do that? I seriously don't blame her for how she feels. She isn't going to any kind of therapy anymore and she's consumed by bitterness and rage. Still, I can't allow her to continue with the things she's saying about my wife. I guess the easy answer is I can put the house on the market and we can move somewhere not too far away. Houston is huge and there are new subdivisions all over the city. I'd prefer not to do that but again, she's only two houses away and she's poisoning all the neighbors against my wife. How would you proceed with this? Do I tell her to cut it out? I fully understand her feelings and don't want her to think I'm switching sides on this. For a couple years she and I were on the same team. This is another tricky part about this that it seems is on my shoulders. This sucks, I didn't do anything wrong and I keep getting all this sh!t to have to clean up. My wife offered to go to her house and try to talk to her but I advised against it. As I've said in another post I can't guarantee that she wouldn't shoot her dead as soon as she stepped foot on her property. She's the worst case scenario of a woman scorned.


Two houses down? You may have to move.
You can send her an email, asking her to curb the name calling and that you are ending all contact to work on your marriage. 

Couple of things:
She is 100% wrong for trying to scuttle your reconciliation and insulting your wife to you.

She can tell her story to anyone that will listen and there is nothing you can really do.

Still, I can see why she feels you are switching sides in her eyes. You both removed your cheating spouses from your houses, worked together on passing information and shared shoulders for two years of mutual misery. Sorry dude, you emotionally bonded with this woman on a certain level. I'm not saying love, but the friendship level sounds deeper on her end. I know you'll disagree, but think on this comment.


> Anyway this email I got is saying that she hopes things work out for me but that she thinks I'm a sap for even talking to "that nasty wh0re" again. She continually calls my wife the most horrible things imaginable and I can't say I blame her. She's emotionally still where I was a year ago.


She feels comfortable calling her a [email protected] and you a sap. The relationship is deeper than you think. I hope you understand how attached she is to you. Now, she loses another man to the same woman. Of course she is going to rage and be even more bitter. I am not blaming you, or her, for working together to get through the pain. I want you to see a possibility of why she is so angry and bitter.


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## bfree

Will moving be a problem for your daughter?


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## MattMatt

turnera said:


> Time to have a talk to OMW. Explain what you've learned here, about how your wife has been 'on hold,' waiting for you for 2 years, and you're taking it very slowly. Then ask for her good wishes. And to stop trashing your wife.
> 
> As for moving, consider moving down to one of the new subdivisions on WLHP. There are 4 or 5 going up there now. And your daughter could go to AHS, which is where DD24 went an, IMO, the best one in the district. It's a good time for the move, as she's getting closer to high school. And still close enough to still have all her friends. Plus, you'll be nearer BW8 and not have to deal with the Kingwood traffic.


:iagree:

And ask OMW why she is so dedicating to hurting your daughter?


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## KingwoodKev

MattMatt said:


> :iagree:
> 
> And ask OMW why she is so dedicating to hurting your daughter?


I'll admit, I hadn't thought of that angle. I'll ask her if she really wants to go around the neighborhood our daughter lives in and has many friends in and call her mother these horrible things.


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## KingwoodKev

bfree said:


> Will moving be a problem for your daughter?


For the high school she's going to be starting this fall there are several newer subdivisions going up. We'd have choices that would keep her in her current high school. The response at her school has been mixed from very supportive friends to bullies that have laughed and called her mom a wh0re. I had hoped this wouldn't make it to her school but dday was as loud and public as it could be. People she goes to school with saw it all unfold. Police came. It was quite a scene.


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## Thundarr

KingwoodKev said:


> Posting, reading, visiting. I brought up how I thought it had helped me with some things and both my IC and our MC told me this is a very dangerous place. They both had the same advice. They said this place was full of a lot of people where things went very badly and they're still very bitter and wouldn't give good advice. They advised me to stick with the pro's. I just thought you guys would like to know that A.) at least these "pro's" have heard of TAM and B.) they don't like it and tell their clients to stay off it.


Kev, A smart counselor knows that you're capable of reading multiple points of view and filtering the ones that apply to you. Any IC or MC who thinks they have the market cornered on common sense and objectivity as it pertains to human nature and psychology is a paper tiger. Probably someone who ended up in a psychology field while trying to figure out what was wrong with themselves. Finding a psychologist or councelor is feast or famine. You'll either find a truly great one or you'll find an imbecile and there are very few great ones.


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## KingwoodKev

Thundarr said:


> Kev, A smart counselor knows that you're capable of reading multiple points of view and filtering the ones that apply to you. Any IC or MC who thinks they have the market cornered on common sense and objectivity as it pertains to human nature and psychology is a paper tiger. Probably someone who ended up in a psychology field while trying to figure out what was wrong with themselves. Finding a psychologist or councelor is feast or famine. You'll either find a truly great one or you'll find an imbecile and there are very few great ones.


I guess it's possible that some therapists would feel threatened in their profession by online support groups where people can discuss their problems and get advice. Let's face it, that's all you're doing at the MC's office. Here you can find dozens of MC's. I do know how to filter out what I consider to be too negative to be useful. I'm dedicated at this point to R so I focus only on advice that I feel will help me with that. I do also heed all the warnings but I'm not worried. If even 1 rule for R that I set out in counseling gets violated then I'm gone.

She's doing good. Case in point: there's a CPA here locally that we know. He cheated on his wife a few years ago and got divorced. He runs his own CPA/tax business by himself. He contacted my wife a few weeks ago and said he's going to be swamped during tax time and wanted to know if she'd be interested in working with him in his office during the tax season. He heard she wasn't working full time and doing consulting work. She told him that she couldn't do that, was not interested at all. She then told me about that exchange right away. It could have been completely on the up and up but now she knows about situational awareness and boundaries. I truly hope we make it, I love her with all my heart. With that said, 1 violation of my rules and it's over.


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## ConanHub

Moving could be a good idea as long as a new reputation can be built. It isn't up to you to fix omw or stop her anger.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KingwoodKev

ConanHub said:


> Moving could be a good idea as long as a new reputation can be built. It isn't up to you to fix omw or stop her anger.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


True but we were kind of comrades in arms. I have literally zero feelings toward her in any male/female or romantic capacity. I truly don't. As another poster suggested, I do think she was becoming a little attached to me. I don't think those are real feelings though. More like two people that have been through hell together and survived. Well, at least I think I've survived. I think she's still in hell. I feel compelled to help her if I can. She was an entirely different woman before. It's sad to see. It might help us to move also for my wife's mental health. They were good friends and my wife seeing her often and how broken she is would probably torture my wife and OMW. I'm back from the dead now. I'm awake and stronger than I have been in years. If I have to assume the burden of putting this all back together I think I'm willing, and more importantly able, to do it now. Again, that's a big shout out to the people here. Some of which I think had even worse tales of woe than I have and survived. That has inspired me to get up and stop feeling sorry for myself. As long as my wife keeps doing her part we'll move along fine. I still have my daughter to "fix" and I hope I can also help OMW. I'd love it if my wife and I could help her together. Do any of you think she'll (OMW) ever be open to the both of us talking to her/helping her cope? I wouldn't even suggest it at this point but she really does need help and she won't go to therapy. She does put on a brave face for her kids. I admire her for that.


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## Daniel.

1. Send TAM link to her, it might help her too
2. So your wife has never talked to OMW post dday ?


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## turnera

Maybe it's time for your wife to apologize to her.


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## KingwoodKev

Daniel. said:


> 1. Send TAM link to her, it might help her too
> 2. So your wife has never talked to OMW post dday ?


That's funny, I did send her a link to TAM a couple days after I found it. I told her there were a lot of people here who knew exactly how she felt and could offer some sound advice. She responded to my email but only addressed other things she had asked me about. Maybe if I keep suggesting it, it'll sink in. If she does show up here she'll need some really tender care. She's hurting bad and is extremely angry. Even two years later. She found out a lot during the divorce. Like she lost half her retirement account to the ex. She has a great job, he has none. She also has to pay him alimony because she was the prime source of income for the family. The court system in this country is a massive POS. Doesn't anyone give a sh!t about justice or what's right anymore?

As for #2, no. DDay was in my front yard with her screaming at my wife at the top of her lungs. I guess you could say they talked once later but it was her yelling horrible obscenities at my wife when she came by to get more of her clothes to take back to the apartment. I'm telling you this woman is really in a bad way. She could use this place more than I could when I first came here.


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## ConanHub

OMW needs to see destruction wrought on your w. She really needs a way to become healthy and well. She may well never want to see your w again until hell freezes over. If I were in her shoes your wife would be dead to me.

Would you feel better interacting with OM? I think distance between the two would be healthy for now definitely, maybe forever.

The health, well being and friendship of omw was one of the casualties/costs of what your wife did. Sometimes things destroyed stay destroyed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KingwoodKev

ConanHub said:


> OMW needs to see destruction wrought on your w. She really needs a way to become healthy and well. She may well never want to see your w again until hell freezes over. If I were in her shoes your wife would be dead to me.
> 
> Would you feel better interacting with OM? I think distance between the two would be healthy for now definitely, maybe forever.
> 
> The health, well being and friendship of omw was one of the casualties/costs of what your wife did. Sometimes things destroyed stay destroyed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Contact with OM is out of the question. When it all went down he fled the state and ran home to mommy's house. That is where he still lives. A 40-something year old man living at home with mommy afraid to face the people he betrayed. I'd LOVE to see him. I never got a chance to after dday. He still has some teeth I'd like to help him digest.


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## MrsDraper

You have gotten too involved with OMW. Some might even call it an emotional affair.

You need to pull yourself together and disconnect if you want a true reconciliation.


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## Whip Morgan

Kingwood, do not approach OMW with your wife. At all. Bad idea. Also, make sure your wife is clear that she is not to attempt speaking with OMW on her own. She may get it in her head that it may help this situation - it wont. You need to have that talk with your wife. If you already have, thats smart.

You cannot stop OMW from talking about your wife. Unfortunately its not ridiculous lies she is spewing - its the truth.If you ask her to stop in consideration of you and your wife, she wont. However, if you ask her to consider the further impact it has on your innocent daughter (and the damage already done), it may have an impact. Its probably your best chance to get through to her.


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## manticore

KingwoodKev said:


> Anyway this email I got is saying that she hopes things work out for me but that she thinks I'm a sap for even talking to "that nasty wh0re" again. She continually calls my wife the most horrible things imaginable and I can't say I blame her. She's emotionally still where I was a year ago. It's a fairly new neighborhood. More houses are getting finished and new people are moving in. She tells everyone she meets that her husband was a total cheating a$$hole and that my wife was his wh0re. New people treat me like I'm dying of cancer and give my wife looks of utter disgust and contempt.
> 
> I think I need to tell OMW to back off on my wife but how can I do that?


Sorry but you have no right to tell her nothing, you can try to request her to be nicer for the sake of your daughter, but nothing else, your wife is her OW and she was victim of double betrayal, she is not saying lies.

Answer me, if OMW would decide to give the OM a second chance and he moves again at 2 houses of distance from you, would you treat him with respect and would not say nothing offensive to others about him having to see him all the days every day passing by your house after what he did, I guess not as you just wrote this:



KingwoodKev said:


> I'd LOVE to see him. I never got a chance to after dday. He still has some teeth I'd like to help him digest.


So what right you have to demand from others what you are not willing to give?.

*Now the irony.

"If one of the both of you would have a better chance of R and more right in a sense" it would be her*, after all she was never plan B, she was always her number one choice, for what I get from your story, this was also his first affair.

If you think or are making excuses in your mind that he was 100% the agressor and your wife is the innocent victim of a player you are wrong, your wife began to detach from you a year or so before the affair if remember correctly, she was already unsatify by your relationship, and there is a big probability that she was the one who opened the door to the affair with the OM, being flirty and talking of unsatisfaction with him and he as he stated just took adventage of a easy laid that was being flirtatius with him (remember that he was disclosing all the truth (no trickle truth with his wife unlike yours) to his wife when he stated that).

If you ask me for everything I have got from your case, you wife probably began to open with OM and talking of how she was not happy anymore, and then both began the affair game which probably began with lusty sex, in which she later devoloped feelings for him as many times happens to women in affairs.

So no, you have no right to say nothing to her, if anything you should be grateful, there are many cases like the one of the OMW where they found the affair, and as the husbands begs seconds chance and she is plan A, the WS cut the OW (in this case would be your wife) and begin R without never disclosig the truth to the other BS (in this case would be you) to not have problems and mantain the apparecences, you should be grateful thet OMW is an honest woman that not accepts cheaters and easy paths in her live or you would have never found the about the affair.


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## phillybeffandswiss

manticore said:


> So no, you have no right to say nothing to her,


He has the same right to defend his family, as the OMW does to tell everyone in the neighborhood she's a home wrecker. So, if it bothers him that much he needs to move or ignore the OMW.


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## manticore

phillybeffandswiss said:


> He has the same right to defend his family, as the OMW does to tell everyone in the neighborhood she's a home wrecker. So, if it bothers him that much he needs to move or ignore the OMW.


I can say mostly agree, but as the saying goes "your rights ends where the right of the other begins", you have to think of the whole bussiness unversaly, I am sure most woman that are migrating to this neighborhood, agree that it was good that they were informed that the woman from certain house had no problem having a extramarital affair with her friend's husband who was just 2 houses of distance, so now they are aware of who they can not give their trust and be carefull around, I know I would like to know if a POS that sleeps with married women were around my house.


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## Graywolf2

KingwoodKev said:


> When I was getting TT'd because *my wife was so ashamed *she wouldn't give me details, this woman was filling in the blanks because her husband was spilling all the beans. She is his primary source of financial support so *he had to try and save that lifeline *so he told her everything.


You make it sound like your wife is better than the OM. Both WS did what they thought best to save their ass. The OM ran off to his momma and your wife ran off to an apartment you paid for. 

Both you and the OMW are paying alimony to your respective spouses. You in the form of rent and 100% childcare. I really don't see much difference between your wife and the OM. The difference is your ability to R and vs the OMW's ability to R.

From what you have written your wife had a midlife crisis and wanted to try some new dishes besides you. It sounds like the OM just happened to be a convenient dish. How hard did the OM have to work to get to your wife? If your wife seduced the OM to satisfy her midlife itch then the OMW has every reason to hate your wife as a home wrecker.

There are three reasons for the TT. Embarrassment, sparing the feelings of the BS and saving your ass. 

It’s like the old story about putting a frog in boiling water. It will jump right out. But if you put it in cold water and raise the temperature slowly, it will stay in and cook. At worst TT gives the BS time to adjust so they don’t reach critical mass and ask for divorce. At best the WS may be able to keep some of the facts secret forever.


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## Locke.Stratos

I think it's on your wife to repair the relationship with her ex mister's wife seeing as they were friends. The way you feel about her affair partner is how the other man's wife feels about yours.

She was her good friend and she lied to her for a year while she had an affair with her husband, ruined her marriage and finances and basically made her a single parent/income house. Then after all of that your wife still has her marriage and husband. Her rage meter must be on overload.

Your wife has made the effort to atone for the hurt she has caused you and her family, she should perhaps try with her ex friend, endure her ex friend's anger and verbal attacks and work through it. Unless murder is a distinct possibility off course.


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## KingwoodKev

From some of the responses I can tell I left off a piece of information. OMW found out from her WH's sister that he had cheated on her once before with a co-worker for several months, a few years ago, but the woman broke it off. He had asked his sister if he should come clean and she said as long as he would never do it again that he should stay silent or risk ruining his life. I guess integrity runs high in that family.


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## turnera

manticore said:


> Answer me, if OMW would decide to give the OM a second chance and he moves again at 2 houses of distance from you, would you treat him with respect and would not say nothing offensive to others about him having to see him all the days every day passing by your house after what he did


Gotta say, I hadn't thought of it like that. That's an excellent point.

Honestly, if you two do get back together, moving would be best for ALL three of you, for a clean start, leave the bad memories behind. Plus, if you move, your wife and your daughter can decorate the new place together for more bonding.


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## KingwoodKev

turnera said:


> Gotta say, I hadn't thought of it like that. That's an excellent point.
> 
> Honestly, if you two do get back together, moving would be best for ALL three of you, for a clean start, leave the bad memories behind. Plus, if you move, your wife and your daughter can decorate the new place together for more bonding.


I think I might suggest it. They also both love to look at houses. One of our hobbies before the dark times was going to the new subdivisions and checking out the model homes and open houses. House hunting might be therapeutic for the three of us.

BTW, if OMW moves him back in I think I can handle that now. I've had to set down my rage. It was eating me up. I didn't swallow it, I had to let it go. If they got back together then good for them. I wouldn't say anything to any neighbors that don't know his history unless I saw him talking to another man's wife. Then I'd warn the husband about his history. Other than that he'd pretty much be ignored by me unless he tried to talk to me. I'd tell him in a calm voice that he's a snake and there is zero reason for us to ever communicate again. Have a nice life.


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## wmn1

KingwoodKev said:


> True but we were kind of comrades in arms. I have literally zero feelings toward her in any male/female or romantic capacity. I truly don't. As another poster suggested, I do think she was becoming a little attached to me. I don't think those are real feelings though. More like two people that have been through hell together and survived. Well, at least I think I've survived. I think she's still in hell. I feel compelled to help her if I can. She was an entirely different woman before. It's sad to see. It might help us to move also for my wife's mental health. They were good friends and my wife seeing her often and how broken she is would probably torture my wife and OMW. I'm back from the dead now. I'm awake and stronger than I have been in years. If I have to assume the burden of putting this all back together I think I'm willing, and more importantly able, to do it now. Again, that's a big shout out to the people here. Some of which I think had even worse tales of woe than I have and survived. That has inspired me to get up and stop feeling sorry for myself. As long as my wife keeps doing her part we'll move along fine. I still have my daughter to "fix" and I hope I can also help OMW. I'd love it if my wife and I could help her together. Do any of you think she'll (OMW) ever be open to the both of us talking to her/helping her cope? I wouldn't even suggest it at this point but she really does need help and she won't go to therapy. She does put on a brave face for her kids. I admire her for that.



Here are my thoughts.

1) Move. A move could help everybody. You, your wife, daughter and the OMW. You won't have to look at that house 2 doors down anymore as a reminder of what happened. 

2) I ADMIRE YOUR CARING ABOUT OMW. I am against the suggestions of no contact and lowering the hammer on her. She suffered a fate just like you did and she was there at a time when noone else was, including and especially your wife. Neither of you asked for this. I believe you need to help her to an extent without threatening your R. I APPLAUD your loyalty to her in this regard (OMW) So I would do this in three ways

a) Have a one on one talk with her. Explain to her that you haven't turned coat, that you still share her feelings but have managed to begin the healing process and need her understanding. let her know that your wife has paid a steep price for what happened and will continue to do so for some time. Let her know that while you are still hurting for what occurred, you found that you can't change what happened but you can find peace of mind and her holding onto it isn't going to change what happened either and while she still sits in bitterness, her ex has moved on and he's winning by doing that. She needs to find peace and that you and the wife are willing to help in that regard but not if she's going to blow up your life in the process and the R.

B) tell her that you are considering a move for the betterment of all sides

C) If she's not going out with anyone, hook her up with a single friend to show her that life can move forward.

3) Encourage her to re-enter IC.

The more I read about your actions, the more respect that I have for you and your discipline and loyalty, Kingwood. It would be easy to lay a $hitbomb at this lady's door but you can't and that is a sign of a respectful human being


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## Chaparral

I agree with everyone that says move. Every time the OMW sees your wife she will trigger. She did nothing to deserve that. Bless her heart she has been put through a wringer.

By all means talk to her, just do not expect her to ever be nice to your wife. Her family was destroyed and her husband turns out to be a serial cheater.

Any help you can give her is great but you also might turn out to be a trigger for her.


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## Whip Morgan

KingwoodKev said:


> BTW, if OMW moves him back in I think I can handle that now. I've had to set down my rage. It was eating me up. I didn't swallow it, I had to let it go. If they got back together then good for them. I wouldn't say anything to any neighbors that don't know his history unless I saw him talking to another man's wife. Then I'd warn the husband about his history. Other than that he'd pretty much be ignored by me unless he tried to talk to me.


You really think you could? If you try R, your wife moves home, and her OM moves back too? I highly doubt you would be handling that as casually as you imply. The man that your wife would have left ypu and her children for, if she had the opportunity, just two houses down?

Nope. Kingwood, I understand that you're feeling better now than you have in two years. I do. But I dont think you've processed alot of this yet. There are rough times ahead. You've been very open about how the last two years have been for you. When you start Ring, if you do, you're going to hit really hard patches. 

You said earlier that you dont have any rose colored glasses on. I think you do. Not completely, but its there.


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## manticore

Whip Morgan said:


> Nope. Kingwood, I understand that you're feeling better now than you have in two years. I do. But I dont think you've processed alot of this yet. There are rough times ahead. You've been very open about how the last two years have been for you. When you start Ring, if you do, you're going to hit really hard patches.
> 
> You said earlier that you dont have any rose colored glasses on. I think you do. Not completely, but its there.


Agree, KingwoodKev, if you think this ist he end of the journey my man, you are mistaken this is just the beginning of your healing after a long period of refusal to move on.

now you have decided that R is the path you want, but you will have to face your demons, insecurities, triggers, mindmovies, that you have not face before, even something as simple as she getting a little late form work or some activity, even something as simple as she texting and smiling at her phone, even something as simple as she going out for a coffe with friends would be a challenge for endurance.

Trying to fix a marriage hurt by indifidelity is not easy just because you have decided that is the path you want, and if by any reasons it turns out to be easy, then you are not really healing it as you should.


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## Openminded

R is the hardest thing you will ever do.


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## Wolfman1968

KingwoodKev said:


> Contact with OM is out of the question. When it all went down he fled the state and ran home to mommy's house. That is where he still lives. A 40-something year old man living at home with mommy afraid to face the people he betrayed. I'd LOVE to see him. I never got a chance to after dday. He still has some teeth I'd like to help him digest.


So, in a way, your feelings toward the OM is not really any different than the OMW's feelings toward your wife.

I think that part of the reason you are in a different place toward your wife than the OMW is, is because you potentially have a relationship which could be salvaged and a family (with a daughter) to rebuild. There's no benefit for the OMW to reconcile with your wife, so she remains angry.

In a similar fashion, there's nothing in it for you to reconcile with the OM, so you still feel you'd like to "help him digest his teeth."


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## lordmayhem

I see that KingwoodKev got banned this morning. Its probably for the best right now. He's still angry, triggering badly, and projecting his anger. Hope he cools off for now.


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## turnera

lordmayhem said:


> I see that KingwoodKev got banned this morning. Its probably for the best right now. He's still angry, triggering badly, and projecting his anger. Hope he cools off for now.


That's what I was trying to tell him. He FEELS 'all cured' now because he's reconciling and they're in their fairy tale stage. But just a month ago he wanted to bash the OM's teeth in. He just repressed it. The last thing I read of his, I was thinking, gee, he's going to turn into one of 'those' posters here, who gets off on trashing people. 

I hope he gets help for it. Kev, I hope you are getting good IC for all this.


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## vellocet

lordmayhem said:


> I see that KingwoodKev got banned this morning. Its probably for the best right now. He's still angry, triggering badly, and projecting his anger. Hope he cools off for now.


Yup, Team W got him


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## turnera

We all have control over our own keyboards.


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## larry.gray

turnera said:


> We all have control over our own keyboards.


Yep... and there is at least one baiter that should have gone with him.


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## altawa

Hope he finds another MC that isn't a man hater.


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## MovingAhead

altawa said:


> Hope he finds another MC that isn't a man hater.


Good luck with that... I may be cynical, but I think it's from experience. I learned more from BS and WS alike here who want to move on with their life than from any Marriage Counselor. IC, I had a good one, taught me how to control when I would start getting depressed or angry.


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## turnera

So let him pick a male counselor.


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## MovingAhead

turnera said:


> So let him pick a male counselor.


I had a male counselor who had to rescue the poor damsel in distress... The problem the damsel would lie through her teeth and he would always take her side.... as opposed to listening without prejudice or bias... Seriously good luck finding a good MC that really knows how to deal with adultery.


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## turnera

I gave him a website to get reviews and to call and ask the right questions about the infidelity before going. Up to him if he uses it. fwiw, I have had two female counselors who were NOT man-haters and gave extremely good advice - to both of us.


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## GusPolinski

larry.gray said:


> Yep... and there is at least one baiter that should have gone with him.


What's hilarious about ^this^ reply is that different folks will "Like" it w/ certain people in mind... and all while perhaps oblivious to the fact that others have them in mind while doing the same.


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## vellocet

GusPolinski said:


> What's hilarious about ^this^ reply is that different folks will "Like" it w/ certain people in mind... and all while perhaps oblivious to the fact that others have them in mind while doing the same.


Yup, like I said, Team W just a waitin' to hit that report button. No matter how ridiculous or petty the so-called "offense" is.

Kev got Lebron'd


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## GusPolinski

turnera said:


> That's what I was trying to tell him. He FEELS 'all cured' now because he's reconciling and they're in their fairy tale stage. *But just a month ago he wanted to bash the OM's teeth in.* He just repressed it. The last thing I read of his, I was thinking, gee, he's going to turn into one of 'those' posters here, who gets off on trashing people.
> 
> I hope he gets help for it. Kev, I hope you are getting good IC for all this.


And that's not at all likely to EVER go away. The best that most of us can ever truly hope for is to sort of focus or steer that aggression... to _manage_ it, if you will.

Having said that, I'd agree that Kev has probably spent far too long avoiding the emotional fallout from his wife's affair. Once he starts to relax, it's going to come at him like a flood.


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## GusPolinski

vellocet said:


> Yup, like I said, Team W just a waitin' to hit that report button. No matter how ridiculous or petty the so-called "offense" is.
> 
> Kev got Lebron'd


What's the "W" supposed to represent?


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## vellocet

GusPolinski said:


> What's the "W" supposed to represent?


Wayward


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## Ripper

I think I found the thread that caused his banned. Was kind of disgusting. Its easy to see how a fairly recently betrayed male would get torqued off at some of it. 

Hope the guy is alright and comes back. If he does, someone acquaint him with the "ignore" feature.


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## GusPolinski

vellocet said:


> Wayward


I think that the "team" mindset is a huge part of the issue here. Additionally, quite a few folks would probably get a lot more out of their time here -- AND be taken more seriously -- if they'd come to the realization that there aren't really any "teams" here... just a bunch of people whose opinions happen to differ.


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## ConanHub

Ripper said:


> I think I found the thread that caused his banned. Was kind of disgusting. Its easy to see how a fairly recently betrayed male would get torqued off at some of it.
> 
> Hope the guy is alright and comes back. If he does, someone acquaint him with the "ignore" feature.


Was it the "Dealing with anger" thread?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## vellocet

GusPolinski said:


> I think that the "team" mindset is a huge part of the issue here. Additionally, quite a few folks would probably get a lot more out of their time here -- AND be taken more seriously -- if they'd come to the realization that there aren't really any "teams" here... just a bunch of people whose opinions happen to differ.


Tell it to the "team" that feigns being offended in getting a BS banned.


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## Ripper

ConanHub said:


> Was it the "Dealing with anger" thread?


That would be my guess, I could be wrong. I didn't see anything in his posting history that screamed "ban him", so it must have been an accumulation of things or the offending post was deleted already.

I have my own theory of whats going on around here. Certain posters, you are just better off avoiding.


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## ConanHub

Ripper said:


> That would be my guess, I could be wrong. I didn't see anything in his posting history that screamed "ban him", so it must have been an accumulation of things or the offending post was deleted already.
> 
> I have my own theory of whats going on around here. Certain posters, you are just better off avoiding.


Thanks. That is the one I would pick. As a general rule, I think ripping at a wounded individual (BS), is pretty God damned deplorable! I feel better. End rant.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## vellocet

Ripper said:


> That would be my guess, I could be wrong. I didn't see anything in his posting history that screamed "ban him", so it must have been an accumulation of things or the offending post was deleted already.


Oh he could get a little annoyed and mix it up with the best of them, but nothing bannable, IMO.

So unless I'm wrong, this is his first time out and should be back in 3 days.


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## vellocet

ConanHub said:


> Was it the "Dealing with anger" thread?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I guess Kev wasn't entitled to his anger. Of course we knew that from the people that told him to basically just get over it.


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## ConanHub

vellocet said:


> I guess Kev wasn't entitled to his anger. Of course we knew that from the people that told him to basically just get over it.


Yeah. You can tell the dude still has massive pain and anger to work through. I definitely get forum guidelines and generally approve.

I'm actually not going to continue this train of thought until I flesh it out. Something definitely doesn't sit right with me about it. Kevin has sharp edges, understandable, but I also wonder about purposefully clawing at an unhealed wound.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## IIJokerII

ConanHub said:


> Yeah. You can tell the dude still has massive pain and anger to work through. I definitely get forum guidelines and generally approve.
> 
> I'm actually not going to continue this train of thought until I flesh it out. Something definitely doesn't sit right with me about it. Kevin has sharp edges, understandable, but I also wonder about purposefully clawing at an unhealed wound.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 The same reason most people here pick at a scab or pop a pimple or do whatever to remedy an imperfection. Kev is under a heavy dose of Limboitis. Something that effects men far more impacting than people realize. I am not trying to be sexist but it does appear to be a far more psychological scarring when a man is cheated on. And in most cases it is a "Nice" guy who did what she wanted yet was rewarded with more grief and them betrayal. 

Kev will vent elsewhere and his wife, with the support of the MC/IC ( I will bet they are both from the same office IMO) is pushing for a local record of cake eating in terms of duration. Yes, TAM is littered with the dominant audience members being the chumps, ahem, Betrayed. So what does one expect when someone who is hurting comes here looking for help, they get a clarion call from that very first post. "Help, Help me please". Lord know i was so fvcked up from my Wifes emotional attacks that for nearly a month I could not get a damn boner!!!!!! I mean, oxygen and consciousness were my viagra...But for a time I was so out of touch with life and with my marriage getting ravaged it took alot to push back. Now he came here looking to vent, just vent, among people who know exactly how he feels, whether it is the victims or the criminals.

Kevin is also trying to digest his options. He has a few to go forward with, and all of them suck. Who wants to give up the life they worked for, even of the effort paid little dividends. People here tell him to Divorce while others tell him to reconcile knowing full well his wife speech is hindered unless she gets that milk, and the smears of chocolate across her face. The most obvious point is still at the heart of the matter, she introduced this problem against Kev's will and she must be the one to put forth the most, not all mind you, effort to fix this mess.

My dear lady Devastated & Lost is in the same boat.. Although she does not attack the WS here she certainly does not hold back about her hurt she merely projects it in a different manner. We encourage her to be vocal and let loose her inner angst, and despite the frequency difference that her and Kev feel they are both hurt and angry. There is more than one way to flatten a tire.


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## Thundarr

vellocet said:


> Yup, Team W got him


Ive seen you be respectful to a few waywards who you felt were remorseful and had the right mindset Vel. Does that mean you were on team wayward for those comments? What I see are a couple of cliques who posture against one another based on previous interactions with each other rather than the actualy content of a given thread. It's too bad because once you box someone into the opposing clique, you're no longer objective to anything they say pertaining to the context of the given thread.


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## ConanHub

Great breakdown Joker. I was actually being hazy in my comment. My point was obscure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## vellocet

Thundarr said:


> Ive seen you be respectful to a few waywards who you felt were remorseful and had the right mindset Vel. Does that mean you were on team wayward for those comments?


No. I use the label Team Wayward for those that look for any petty reason to report a BS.


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## altawa

ConanHub said:


> Yeah. You can tell the dude still has massive pain and anger to work through. I definitely get forum guidelines and generally approve.
> 
> I'm actually not going to continue this train of thought until I flesh it out. Something definitely doesn't sit right with me about it. Kevin has sharp edges, understandable, but I also wonder about purposefully clawing at an unhealed wound.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What exactly is there to 'flesh out'?


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## ConanHub

altawa said:


> What exactly is there to 'flesh out'?


There is a problem I perceive. I am angry about it. I am refining and tempering myself to be effective when I express the issue. I'm not there yet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## altawa

ConanHub said:


> There is a problem I perceive. I am angry about it. I am refining and tempering myself to be effective when I express the issue. I'm not there yet.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Gotcha.


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## altawa

Well that didn't last long. Saved for posterity though.


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## NoChoice

OP,
After reading this entire thread I am of the same opinion as so many other posters. A counselor is one that has as their primary goal the best interest of their patient. If the counselor failed to ask you what your feelings were in regards to your involvement in this forum and to ascertain what, if any benefit you had received or are still receiving from your participation herein, then I question their motives in suggesting you stay away from this site.

A good counselor wants their patient to emerge from their ordeal a whole person again and welcomes any and all input that positively promotes that outcome. I find requesting you to abstain from a source of strength and encouragement to be short sighted on the part of the therapist. As is the case with counseling, there is much information to digest and interpolate here that can aid and direct you. And, as is also the case with counseling, there is information that is of little or no use and should be received as such. Therefore, in light of your own admission as to the help. support and strength you have received here I would suggest that you put forth due diligence in finding a counselor the understands and supports your earnest desire to move beyond this A and begin the task of reassembling your family and is less concerned about where that positive influence comes from.

I would also like to speak to your progress and its effect on your family, both good and bad. You have indicated that you and your wife are close to becoming intimate again and I would like to suggest that you two discuss this at length prior to the event. My reasoning in this is due to the fact that intimacy brings to the surface emotions which you have buried deeply in order to avoid the pain associated with them. As you and your wife approach this level these emotions will surface and their effects can be overwhelming. You must have an understanding about the possibility of these effects in order to be able to deal with them if they occur, as best you can.

She must understand that a negative response from you is not indicative of your disdain for her but rather you dealing with emotions that have been sidelined for a long time now. Likewise, you need to understand that a severe emotional breakdown on her part, such as uncontrollable crying, does not indicate lack of desire to be with you but is rather her emotions flooding in as you two try to regain what she may have thought lost forever. All I am saying is to be prepared to be overwhelmed and use the experience to support and bolster one another rather than let it set you back.

I feel that you and your wife are poised to make a successful R because, according to your posts, you both want this more than life itself. That is the most important first ingredient to any R and without it R is futile. The fact that your wife actually contradicted the counselor in regards to your not meeting her needs and somehow failing to provide her the environment necessary to remain faithful is quite telling and I would take that as another example of her deep desire to atone for her misdeeds. She seems to sincerely desire to be a family again and although you cannot forget what happened she can, with enough diligence and perseverance, bury that horrific memory far beneath the new memories you two will make together.


----------



## MattMatt

You can look for other therapists.The Family & Marriage Counseling Directory


----------



## Whip Morgan

Dont know why he got banned, but I hope he can return. 

Right now is the best he has been feeling in two years, and I can respect that he wants to move forward to R since it has given him these warm feelings. 

I suspect he is absolutely looking at this through his rose glasses, regardless that he claims he doesnt. And thats okay- Kev is a human being, and I believe many here would do the same. Lord knows I did after I ditchd my ex-fiancee. My heart didnt want to, not completely.

He has alot to accept in order to move forward. First and foremost, the Plan B thing. Yes, I firmly believe that is significant, although some here may not. Cheaters script, and all that. The problem is, I think this will affect Kev down the road, and he may not be prepared for it. I can see it happen, the feelings and thoughts of wondering if this is what she really wants, that'll pop up when they're having a good moment. 

I think he has, to an extant, accepted this. That she would have left her family, if she had the chance. However, she wasnt given the choice. So she works with what is leftover. Some here seem to believe that because she lives seperately from Kev and left her job, that it MUST mean she is remorseful, etc.

I dont fully agree or disagree with that. She could have taken stock of her life. I'd imagine she realized that once she lost out on her OM, all she had left were Kev and her kids. Kev didnt fully cut the cord - rather she knew, as long as he paid for her place and didnt divorce her, that he was in limbo. And the kids - she already nuked those relationships, but she must have hope to repair it. ANY further cheating behavior from her would have probably extinguished that hope. 

I think all of those are reasonable. Does it make it completely accurate? No. But its entirely within reason. Kev has never really elaborated about how she has done everything he needs her to do...I'm curious about what he considers "heavy lifting"

Maybe she really is trying. But Kev has to work on himself, which is alot more important than his R. He spent two years in a miserable limbo. A few weeks here and he is flying high. He'll come down from that high. I hope he is prepared for that.


----------



## Thundarr

Whip Morgan said:


> Dont know why he got banned, but I hope he can return.


Kev will be back soon because he seems like a decent guy who just triggers. It's probably more of a cool down than a ban and maybe was for his benefit rather than as voilation being policed.


----------



## jim123

I did not read the other thread at all. Glad I did not.


The MC and IC are correct. Kev has too much anger. He is not close to R.

Reading his total meltdown and displaced anger, he should stick to the pros.


----------



## vellocet

jim123 said:


> I did not read the other thread at all. Glad I did not.
> 
> 
> The MC and IC are correct. Kev has too much anger. He is not close to R..


No, they are not correct. They are telling him he shouldn't be focusing on the affair. THAT IS WHY he has anger. Hence they are basically telling him to just get over it.

Until the affair is dealt with, he cannot proceed with recovery. The MC/IC are trying to rug sweep her affair. Even his WW agrees.


----------



## Thundarr

jim123 said:


> I did not read the other thread at all. Glad I did not.
> 
> The MC and IC are correct. Kev has too much anger. He is not close to R.
> 
> Reading his total meltdown and displaced anger, he should stick to the pros.


I think forums and support groups are vastly more helpful in many cases than a single councelor. There are so many varying points of view and each with their own context. If for no other reason, we learn that uncovering context behinds what people say is very important. We read comments by people who we disagree with and learn a little about how they came to those thoughts and sometimes we realize that we agree but just don't communicate very well.


----------



## happy as a clam

I hope Kev can return to his thread.

I think TAM is/was doing him a world of good.

Temperance, Kev. Temperance.


----------



## Chaparral

One poster kept insisting part of the reason Kev got cheated on was his fault. It went on and on even though he explained even his wife said they had a great marriage. Then the poster insisted his wife wasn't telling the whole truth either.

This poster has given horrendous advice to betrayed spouses and admittedly has zero experience with infidelity and reconciliation.

Exactly how does the ignore feature work? 

Credit to the posters that tried to warn him.


----------



## turnera

To be fair, Kev was also blasting, labeling, and making fun of other posters. He was getting "in the swing of things" pretty darn well.


----------



## vellocet

Chaparral said:


> One poster kept insisting part of the reason Kev got cheated on was his fault.


Let us know who it was so we know which posts to discount.


----------



## vellocet

turnera said:


> To be fair, Kev was also blasting, labeling, and making fun of other posters. He was getting "in the swing of things" pretty darn well.


To be fair of what? Kev got banned. Those that baited him did not.


----------



## Chaparral

turnera said:


> To be fair, Kev was also blasting, labeling, and making fun of other posters. He was getting "in the swing of things" pretty darn well.


Kev was being baited and it was obvious. More than one person should have been banned if anyone was. I have seen much worse. The piling on was obvious and looked to be intentional to me. I wasn't part of the thread and only read the whole thing when it was suggested that's why he got banned.

If it wasn't intentional it was totally thoughtless and has happened before.


----------



## GusPolinski

vellocet said:


> No. I use the label Team Wayward for those that look for any petty reason to report a BS.


I don't think that anyone looks a reason to report a *BS*, per se.

But if a given person -- whether or not he or she is a BS, WS, or whatever -- starts spewing bile, or is known for regularly doing so, then yeah... he or she might find him or herself on the receiving end of a few not-so-accidental mouse clicks.


----------



## vellocet

GusPolinski said:


> I don't think that anyone looks a reason to report a *BS*, per se.


Oh I think they do if the person banned wasn't crossing any defined line. Otherwise those that baited them would be gone.

If a BS does something really to cross the line, I understand.

But its obvious as of late there is some heavy nitpicking going on and just looking for any reason to hit report.




> But if a given person -- whether or not he or she is a BS, WS, or whatever -- starts spewing bile, or is known for regularly doing so, then yeah... he or she might find him or herself on the receiving end of a few not-so-accidental mouse clicks.


I noticed no bile from Kev. Sure he is hurt, sure he is angry, its to be expected. And he mixed it up no worse with anyone else that didn't get a ban hammer.

Maybe that's because some of us just aren't as pissy and looking for any excuse.

Either way, another BS banned, Team W scores another goal.


----------



## GusPolinski

vellocet said:


> Oh I think they do if *the person banned wasn't crossing any defined line.* Otherwise those that baited them would be gone.


OK... then why would've said person been banned?



vellocet said:


> If a BS does something really to cross the line, I understand.
> 
> But its obvious as of late there is some heavy nitpicking going on and just looking for any reason to hit report.
> 
> I noticed no bile from Kev. Sure he is hurt, sure he is angry, its to be expected. And he mixed it up no worse with anyone else that didn't get a ban hammer.
> 
> Maybe that's because some of us just aren't as pissy and looking for any excuse.


Or maybe the offending posts have been deleted. Or maybe the exchange that resulted in the ban occurred via PM.


----------



## Dogbert

I think we should all get banned for a week. For detox purposes you know.


----------



## altawa

GusPolinski said:


> OK... then why would've said person been banned?
> 
> 
> 
> Or maybe the offending posts have been deleted. Or maybe the exchange that resulted in the ban occurred via PM.


Well, the baiting posts are still there, so why wouldn't they have been deleted and those users banned as well?

I think you are not looking at this objectively. Someone that wasn't even involved in that thread has said there was blatant baiting going on.


----------



## Thundarr

Chaparral said:


> One poster kept insisting part of the reason Kev got cheated on was his fault. It went on and on even though he explained even his wife said they had a great marriage. Then the poster insisted his wife wasn't telling the whole truth either.
> 
> This poster has given horrendous advice to betrayed spouses and admittedly has zero experience with infidelity and reconciliation.
> 
> Exactly how does the ignore feature work?
> 
> Credit to the posters that tried to warn him.


I don't have to guess who that was. There's a short list of 2 or 3 capable offenders but one name rises to the top quickly.


----------



## GusPolinski

altawa said:


> Well, the baiting posts are still there, so why wouldn't they have been deleted and those users banned as well?


I can't answer that question. I'm not a mod, so I'm not often privy to any details w/ respect to bans, deleted comments, etc. Having said that...



altawa said:


> I think you are not looking at this objectively.


If you truly think that, then you've not read enough of my posts.



altawa said:


> Someone that wasn't even involved in that thread has said there was blatant baiting going on.


And I don't disagree w/ that. And believe me, I've had more than my share of run-ins w/ the poster that I'll presume is being referred to as the "baiter" in this instance. And I even responded to the reply in question. You took note of that, and commented on it.

But you know who else commented on it? turnera. This is a person for whom I have a certain amount of respect, and that's regardless of the fact that she and I don't always see eye-to-eye. Why? Because, in reading her posts, I'm sometimes able to see that there may have been something that I'd previously failed to consider. This gives me insight into an alternate perspective, even if I don't agree w/ it.

So, having read turnera's reply to me regarding said post, here is what I failed to take into consideration...

_What the poster may have been trying to communicate is that, at some point in the future, Kev will likely get to the point where who did what to who won't matter to him. When that happens, all he'll care about is that he came within a hair's breadth of losing his wife and marriage, and his only regret will be that he wasn't able to find a way to stop that from ever having been a likelihood or possibility in the first place._

Fair enough. In fact, I made a similiar comment to Kev w/ my (paraphrasing) "...when that day comes, all you'll be is happy to be at the beach w/ your wife..." comment in his now-deleted "My story and I need help" thread.

And then, given the follow-up replies that were contributed by said poster, along w/ her track record, I sort of dismissed (though not completely) that idea.

Additional thoughts...

* Online forums seldom provide the best method to communicate ideas as close to the chest (i.e. _subjective_) as marital infidelity. I can't judge your tone. I can't hear the inflection in your voice. And, barring the use of italics, bold letters, caps, colored fonts, etc (all of which, IMO, are fairly under-utilized by many folks here), I can't really determine on which words in a given comment you'd intended to place emphasis.

* I believe that -- in many cases -- women "read" comments left by other female posters better than men do, and vice versa.


----------



## vellocet

GusPolinski said:


> OK... then why would've said person been banned?


I'll plea the 5th on that one.




> Or maybe the exchange that resulted in the ban occurred via PM.


Yup, Team W, or maybe just one of its members. I can tell you right now that blatant and outright personal attacks will go unanswered if they come from the right people, reported or not. Trust me, the rare time I ever reported anyone and it was for an obvious personal attack/name calling. No removal, no ban. Not that I wanted a ban, but at least expected a removal. Nope.

Anyway, I'm done. Just now waiting for Kev to come back. Hopefully he doesn't take that bait again.


----------



## Ripper

Chaparral said:


> One poster kept insisting part of the reason Kev got cheated on was his fault. It went on and on even though he explained even his wife said they had a great marriage. Then the poster insisted his wife wasn't telling the whole truth either.
> 
> This poster has given horrendous advice to betrayed spouses and admittedly has zero experience with infidelity and reconciliation.


There is a RedPill philosophy floating around about how women are "the most responsible teenager in the house" and to just treat them like children. Regardless if she recognizes it or not, this philosophy is exactly what this poster preaches. To me, it is utterly hilarious.

How she hasn't been flogged by other women at this point is anyone's guess. Maybe there's more truth to her viewpoint then they care to admit?:scratchhead:


----------



## Dogbert

Vel, sometimes I get a picture in my mind of the mods as senior citizens left babysitting and falling asleep in front of their monitors while rockin' back and forth in the rocking chairs. They only wake up when kids start yelling and screaming at each other. They grabbed the last kid screamin' and send him/her to the corner for a time out (ban).

(Dogbert's last comment before he got banned )


----------



## altawa

GusPolinski said:


> I can't answer that question. I'm not a mod, so I'm not often privy to any details w/ respect to bans, deleted comments, etc. Having said that...


Well, you have two eyes and a functioning brain like the rest of us, why don't you posit an opinion on it? Or is it something not to be spoken of?



GusPolinski said:


> If you truly think that, then you've not read enough of my posts.


I have read enough to know you will use 100 words where 4 will do. I have also read enough that regardless of the transgression, certain posters will get nothing more than glancing disapproval from you, if any at all. Then you stick your head in the sand with this acting like you don't know exactly what is going on.


GusPolinski said:


> And I don't disagree w/ that. And believe me, I've had more than my share of run-ins w/ the poster that I'll presume is being referred to as the "baiter" in this instance. And I even responded to the reply in question. You took note of that, and commented on it.


So....given the conversation, what do you think about only half of that equation getting banned (really 1/3)?



GusPolinski said:


> But you know who else commented on it? turnera. This is a person for whom I have a certain amount of respect, and that's regardless of the fact that she and I don't always see eye-to-eye. Why? Because, in reading her posts, I'm sometimes able to see that there may have been something that I'd previously failed to consider. This gives me insight into an alternate perspective, even if I don't agree w/ it.
> 
> So, having read turnera's reply to me regarding said post, here is what I failed to take into consideration...
> 
> _What the poster may have been trying to communicate is that, at some point in the future, Kev will likely get to the point where who did what to who won't matter to him. When that happens, all he'll care about is that he came within a hair's breadth of losing his wife and marriage, and his only regret will be that he wasn't able to find a way to stop that from ever having been a likelihood or possibility in the first place._
> 
> Fair enough. In fact, I made a similiar comment to Kev w/ my (paraphrasing) "...when that day comes, all you'll be is happy to be at the beach w/ your wife..." comment in his now-deleted "My story and I need help" thread.
> 
> And then, given the follow-up replies that were contributed by said poster, along w/ her track record, I sort of dismissed (though not completely) that idea.
> 
> Additional thoughts...


Well, that's wonderful.....all while certain posters are telling him his wifes affair was all his fault. Maybe he doesn't need to look 5 or 10 years down the road. Maybe he needs to look 2 or 4 months down the road and take smaller steps to get to a bigger goal, whether that be R or D. But it is damn hard to do that with people here, supposedly to help him, kicking him while he is down, then he gets banned for the trouble.


----------



## wmn1

Here's my question. Why can't anybody debate rather than report to the mods ? I can take any crap that comes my way as long as they aren't posting photos of my family. 

We banned a guy who laid down the law with a cheater but at the same time is showing humility in doing a reconciliation.

if we can't handle honest dissent, then why are we here ????

I've only been here 6 months, never came close to the report button. 

Enough of the thin skinned. Stand by your words, or just hit ignore.......

and no Mods, I am not calling you out but just saying, can't some common sense prevail among us that posts here ???


----------



## sidney2718

vellocet said:


> No. I use the label Team Wayward for those that look for any petty reason to report a BS.


But how do you know who reported whom?


----------



## sidney2718

Thundarr said:


> I don't have to guess who that was. There's a short list of 2 or 3 capable offenders but one name rises to the top quickly.


I don't think it was that person. I think it was the other one.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

See, this is why I warned two posters and then left the thread.


----------



## Dogbert

Debate is healthy but it can grow tiresome when someone takes issue with something you posted but failed to go back and read your past posts on that thread which would have clarified the issue. Or takes one thing out of context from your post and completely twist the entire meaning of your post. And hey, I'm guilty of doing this same thing so I'm not pointing fingers at anybody. Just pointing out a sin we all share.


----------



## vellocet

sidney2718 said:


> But how do you know who reported whom?


Well it sure as hell wasn't a BS that identifies with him.


----------



## NoChoice

wmn1 said:


> Here's my question. Why can't anybody debate rather than report to the mods ? I can take any crap that comes my way as long as they aren't posting photos of my family.
> 
> We banned a guy who laid down the law with a cheater but at the same time is showing humility in doing a reconciliation.
> 
> if we can't handle honest dissent, then why are we here ????
> 
> I've only been here 6 months, never came close to the report button.
> 
> Enough of the thin skinned. Stand by your words, or just hit ignore.......
> 
> and no Mods, I am not calling you out but just saying, can't some common sense prevail among us that posts here ???


:iagree:


Does anyone using reason and rationale not expect to have their viewpoint questioned and even berated from time to time on any public forum? Is our skin so thin that we cannot bear the dissension? Maybe more of us need ignore buttons in our heads. I do not even know where the ignore button is on this page as I have never looked for it nor wanted to.

We each are entitled to our opinion and the rest of us are entitled to agree, disagree or ignore altogether the comments of any poster on here. Even if a poster is profanely abusive I can simply overlook their childish inane drivel and read on to the posts with more relevance and insight. I agree that if a poster presents a pattern of this type of posting that they have no place here and should be banned but, in a heated moment and when emotions are raw.....I fell prudence is called for.

Perhaps if the mods would track the number of reported posts and cross reference from whom the majority of the reports come, they may see a pattern emerge that will be more telling than one poster acting in a heated moment.


----------



## GusPolinski

altawa said:


> Well, you have two eyes and a functioning brain like the rest of us, why don't you posit an opinion on it? Or is it something not to be spoken of?


Dude. Prepare yourself for this...

I. DON'T. GIVE. A. SH*T.

I mean... seriously... do you _honestly_ think that a 3-day or 7-day rip is going to amount to much of anything in the long run here? Do you honestly think that it will affect Kev's life one way or the other?

And hey, if it does, then all that means is that Kev could _USE_ some time away from TAM.



altawa said:


> I have read enough to know you will use 100 words where 4 will do.


I tend to post in a manner that closely reflects the manner in which I naturally speak. Or, if you prefer...

"I type how I talk."

Either way, if you're so put off by what I post, feel free to block me. I promise to not give a sh*t one way or another.

In fact, my keyboard would probably welcome it.



altawa said:


> I have also read enough that regardless of the transgression, certain posters will get nothing more than glancing disapproval from you, if any at all.


This smacks of "Dude, pick a team already...", and that's just dumb. Again, each affair is different from every other, and I refuse to lump all WS's into the same category.

And, more importantly, why should I be so invested in the circumstances of the lives of others that I feel compelled to offer either approval or disapproval, and whether tacit or explicit? And why should you be so concerned w/ whether or not I do?

I make an effort to refrain from getting too invested in much of what I read here. I _have_ to do that, otherwise I'd spend my days tearing at the ever-dwindling supply of hair that's left on my head. 

It's called detachment, and there are a TON of folks here that could stand to do w/ a bit more of it.

Oh, and by the way... _^this^ is *THE* definition of being "objective"._



altawa said:


> Then you stick your head in the sand with this acting like you don't know exactly what is going on.


There is a stark difference between not knowing "what's going on" and not giving a sh*t either way.



altawa said:


> So....given the conversation, what do you think about only half of that equation getting banned (really 1/3)?


I must have missed out on the other third. Either way, it's probably because neither of the other two said something -- and whether via PM or the open forums -- that warranted a ban in the eyes of whichever mod it was that pulled the trigger. It really is as simple as that.



altawa said:


> Well, that's wonderful.....all while certain posters are telling him his wifes affair was all his fault.


I believe that I addressed that comment; both my initial reply and subsequent replies should be enough to clearly spell out my stance w/ respect to the notion that Kev's WW's affair was his fault. But, just in case...

It's bullsh*t.



altawa said:


> Maybe he doesn't need to look 5 or 10 years down the road. Maybe he needs to look 2 or 4 months down the road and take smaller steps to get to a bigger goal, whether that be R or D.


I'd say that he needs to do both. You can keep your eyes on the prize and simultaneously take the smaller steps necessary to move toward it.



altawa said:


> But it is damn hard to do that with people here, supposedly to help him, kicking him while he is down, then he gets banned for the trouble.


Look, I don't disagree. But the analogy that someone made earlier about bickering kids waking up their parents or grandparents sort of applies. It's unfortunate and kind of crappy, but anyone who grew up w/ a younger sibling should be fairly familiar w/ the dynamic.


----------



## GusPolinski

vellocet said:


> Well it sure as hell wasn't a BS that identifies with him.


There's a certain accusatory tone to this that I feel compelled to address, so here goes...

I didn't report Kev. In fact, I don't recall seeing anything on the open forums (or, for that matter, in PMs) that would've prompted me to do so.

And, to the best of my recollection, I've only ever reported one poster (aside from spambots, that is) and that was for direct and _repeated_ harassment of another poster.


----------



## wmn1

NoChoice said:


> :iagree:
> 
> 
> Does anyone using reason and rationale not expect to have their viewpoint questioned and even berated from time to time on any public forum? Is our skin so thin that we cannot bear the dissension? Maybe more of us need ignore buttons in our heads. I do not even know where the ignore button is on this page as I have never looked for it nor wanted to.
> 
> We each are entitled to our opinion and the rest of us are entitled to agree, disagree or ignore altogether the comments of any poster on here. Even if a poster is profanely abusive I can simply overlook their childish inane drivel and read on to the posts with more relevance and insight. I agree that if a poster presents a pattern of this type of posting that they have no place here and should be banned but, in a heated moment and when emotions are raw.....I fell prudence is called for.
> 
> Perhaps if the mods would track the number of reported posts and cross reference from whom the majority of the reports come, they may see a pattern emerge that will be more telling than one poster acting in a heated moment.


:iagree:

as I usually do with you NoChoice


----------



## altawa

GusPolinski said:


> Dude. Prepare yourself for this...
> 
> I. DON'T. GIVE. A. SH*T.
> 
> I mean... seriously... do you _honestly_ think that a 3-day or 7-day rip is going to amount to much of anything in the long run here? Do you honestly think that it will affect Kev's life one way or the other?
> 
> And hey, if it does, then all that means is that Kev could _USE_ some time away from TAM.





> OK... then why would've said person been banned?


That question of yours shows you do give a sh!t. But, whatever you have to tell yourself. Do I think it is the end of the world for kev, no. Do I think double standards are BS, yeah, totally. 



GusPolinski said:


> I tend to post in a manner that closely reflects the manner in which I naturally speak. Or, if you prefer...
> 
> "I type how I talk."
> 
> Either way, if you're so put off by what I post, feel free to block me. I promise to not give a sh*t one way or another.
> 
> In fact, my keyboard would probably welcome it.


Gee, thanks for the permission...



GusPolinski said:


> This smacks of "Dude, pick a team already...", and that's just dumb. Again, each affair is different from every other, and I refuse to lump all WS's into the same category.


No, it is more like 'wake up and see what is going on here'. And so what if every affair is different, they are also all the same: somebody cheated on somebody else. In that all WS's ARE the same.....exactly the same. And there STILL isn't any reason for justification, nor is it 'understandable'.....ever. This comment of yours smacks of 'cheating is ok......sometimes.'


GusPolinski said:


> And, more importantly, why should I be so invested in the circumstances of the lives of others that I feel compelled to offer either approval or disapproval, and whether tacit or explicit? And why should you be so concerned w/ whether or not I do?


You know what, I don't really care. But don't come in this thread asking questions like the one of yours I quoted above knowing damn well what happened and playing dumb.


GusPolinski said:


> I make an effort to refrain from getting too invested in much of what I read here. I _have_ to do that, otherwise I'd spend my days tearing at the ever-dwindling supply of hair that's left on my head.
> 
> It's called detachment, and there are a TON of folks here that could stand to do w/ a bit more of it.
> 
> Oh, and by the way... _^this^ is *THE* definition of being "objective"._


No it's not. Objectivity is looking at both sides of an argument without bias. When one group of people baits a person and the person they baited gets banned, are you saying that's ok? You could say I am biased in that interpretation, except for the people that had nothing to do with that thread all saying the same thing.


GusPolinski said:


> There is a stark difference between not knowing "what's going on" and not giving a sh*t either way.


Then why did you ask your question. It's rhetorical, don't bother asking, I already know the answer.



GusPolinski said:


> I must have missed out on the other third. Either way, it's probably because neither of the other two said something -- and whether via PM or the open forums -- that warranted a ban in the eyes of whichever mod it was that pulled the trigger. It really is as simple as that.


Well, the posts are blatant enough that they have been called out by people not involved in the thread. Does this forum not have a rule against baiting?



GusPolinski said:


> I believe that I addressed that comment; both my initial reply and subsequent replies should be enough to clearly spell out my stance w/ respect to the notion that Kev's WW's affair was his fault. But, just in case...
> 
> It's bullsh*t.


I agree. If you saw it happening over there, why are you in this thread acting like you don't know what is going on? 



GusPolinski said:


> I'd say that he needs to do both. You can keep your eyes on the prize and simultaneously take the smaller steps necessary to move toward it.


Either way. Getting kicked while you are down, then spit on on your way out the door sure didn't help anything.



GusPolinski said:


> Look, I don't disagree. But the analogy that someone made earlier about bickering kids waking up their parents or grandparents sort of applies. It's unfortunate and kind of crappy, but anyone who grew up w/ a younger sibling should be fairly familiar w/ the dynamic.


And that doesn't make it right, especially when from what I can tell, it is the same few people baiting, but they never get banned. I caught a post yesterday calling BS's douche canoes. It disappeared, but I doubt the poster did. I haven't gone to look.


GusPolinski said:


> There's a certain accusatory tone to this that I feel compelled to address, so here goes...
> 
> I didn't report Kev. In fact, I don't recall seeing anything on the open forums (or, for that matter, in PMs) that would've prompted me to do so.
> 
> And, to the best of my recollection, I've only ever reported one poster (aside from spambots, that is) and that was for direct and _repeated_ harassment of another poster.


He wasn't talking about you. 


______________________

FWIW, I am having a bad night, stuff related to this site (not this thread in particular) and other stuff going on. I am not responding anymore, at least for a bit till I can sort some stuff out. My questions above are all rhetoricals (didnt want to post that on every one). Don't bother responding, but I can't stop you, so do what you want.


----------



## altawa

turnera said:


> To be fair, Kev was *also* blasting, labeling, and making fun of other posters. He was getting "in the swing of things" pretty darn well.


Ok, so why was kev the only one banned?


----------



## turnera

IDK. What did Kev *SAY* that was banworthy and deleted? We will never know unless he comes back and shares.

Goading people is not the same thing as saying something that deserves a ban. And Kev was doing plenty of goading himself. Calling people man-haters, I know, is really close to banworthy; my guess is he took it up a notch in the heat of the moment.


----------



## Dogbert

altawa said:


> Ok, so why was kev the only one banned?


Maybe you should ask the mods.


----------



## Thundarr

altawa said:


> Ok, so why was kev the only one banned?


I didn't see exactly why he was banned but that's subjective I suppose. Also there could have been PMs or deleted comments we didn't see. I will say one thing though. There were comments from a poster who was badgering Kev and intentionally trying to get him to trigger. I already knew this poster liked to press people's buttons but this was uglier than I've seen before. If it had been me I would have given myself a self imposed timeout from TAM but then again I wouldn't have been pushing buttons for the fun of it in the first place.


----------



## GusPolinski

altawa said:


> That question of yours shows you do give a sh!t.


That you seem to think so means only that you read it incorrectly.



altawa said:


> No, it is more like 'wake up and see what is going on here'. And so what if every affair is different, they are also all the same: somebody cheated on somebody else. In that all WS's ARE the same.....exactly the same.


The only absolute similarity that will exist in all situations involving infidelity is that one person cheated on another.



altawa said:


> And there STILL isn't any reason for justification, nor is it 'understandable'.....ever. *This comment of yours smacks of 'cheating is ok......sometimes.'*


No, and that you're clearly under this impression means only that you're either incapable of grasping the concept or unwilling to accept it.



altawa said:


> You know what, I don't really care. But don't come in this thread asking questions like the one of yours I quoted above knowing damn well what happened and playing dumb.


Again, I have no idea what Kev said that prompted someone to report him or a mod to ban him.

And you know what? It's entirely possible that NO ONE reported him, and that one of the mods, perusing the thread, took it upon him or herself to lower the banhammer sans report.



altawa said:


> No it's not. Objectivity is looking at both sides of an argument without bias.


And that's what I aim to do. And NOT coming into a thread in which a WS is relating his or her story and spouting off w/ stuff like "Well, you're a dirty cheater, so I don't care what you say..." is a huge part of this.

Either way, you're presuming a bias where there is none. And why? Just because I'm not wearing my "Super Bitter BS Friends" jammies?



altawa said:


> *When one group of people baits a person and the person they baited gets banned, are you saying that's ok?* You could say I am biased in that interpretation, except for the people that had nothing to do with that thread all saying the same thing.


What? No. Dude, I'm not a mod. Why are you asking me to justify or account for their decisions?



altawa said:


> Then why did you ask your question. It's rhetorical, don't bother asking, I already know the answer.


Which question? As to why he might have been banned? It was a rhetorical question -- but I guess you didn't catch that -- meant only to imply that he obviously said something to someone in order to prompt the ban. That's it.



altawa said:


> Well, the posts are blatant enough that they have been called out by people not involved in the thread. Does this forum not have a rule against baiting?


To my knowledge, yes. See previous comment re: me not being a mod.

I'd imagine that the mods don't have the time to read every comment in every thread in every forum on the site. IOW, if you have a problem w/ someone else's post then report it.



altawa said:


> I agree. If you saw it happening over there, why are you in this thread acting like you don't know what is going on?


See previous comments.



altawa said:


> Either way. Getting kicked while you are down, then spit on on your way out the door sure didn't help anything.


I'm sure it stung. It would've gotten under my skin for sure. But Kev's a big boy. He'll be fine.



altawa said:


> And that doesn't make it right, especially when from what I can tell, it is the same few people baiting, but they never get banned. I caught a post yesterday calling BS's douche canoes.


Some doubtlessly are, just as some WS's are, just as some of any given group are... but, in the case of BS's, it's certainly not by virtue of being a BS alone.



altawa said:


> It disappeared, but I doubt the poster did. I haven't gone to look.


Would you have reported the post if it hadn't disappeared?



altawa said:


> He wasn't talking about you.


Oh? That's awesome.

Sounds like you might have a good bit of insight w/ respect to some of the behind-the-scenes goings-on...



altawa said:


> FWIW, I am having a bad night, stuff related to this site (not this thread in particular) and other stuff going on. I am not responding anymore, at least for a bit till I can sort some stuff out. My questions above are all rhetoricals (didnt want to post that on every one). Don't bother responding, but I can't stop you, so do what you want.


Dude, step back from the keyboard, take a few deep breaths, have a couple of beers, get a good night's sleep... whatever helps you to climb down a bit.

And please remember... none of the WWs/FWWs here are your wife/ex-wife. And, barring some sort of amazing coincidence, none of the guys here are her OM/OMs (again, haven't read through your thread in a while). That someone disagrees w/ you doesn't mean that he or she doesn't know or empathize w/ your pain, nor does it mean that they'd seek to invalidate or trivialize it.


----------



## jim123

altawa said:


> Ok, so why was kev the only one banned?


Not 100% sure but he did call someone a name and generally that will get you a three day ban.


----------



## jim123

I went through the thread and I have the following fight recap.

Kev started out looking for a fight and started throwing haymakers.

He then went after EI throwing a ton of haymakers and lots of low blows. EI had enough and threw a soft jab that sent Kev to the canvas for about four pages. Kev begs for help against the imposing 4-9 EI.

Kev gets up with a little help from EI but then sets his sites on jld. jld lights him up with a quick combination and taking a few low blows. 

Kev then goes for the clinch and bites jld ear and gets the DQ.


----------



## turnera

About how I remembered it. I even told him to calm down, I was getting worried for him.


----------



## GusPolinski

I may've stopped reading prior to the latter portion of the exchange.


----------



## jim123

turnera said:


> About how I remembered it. I even told him to calm down, I was getting worried for him.


I worry too. One of these days the hate group is going to send someone off to do something everyone will regret.

He is too angry to R. 

It take two and a lot of love to R.


----------



## larry.gray

vellocet said:


> Let us know who it was so we know which posts to discount.


JLD.

Several women like her because she bashes men and blames them for all. She's quite good at the backhanded insult.

I'm just disappointed in many of the women that do like her. Why? Because JLD thinks women are so inferior that they need to be taken care of by men. Women are so infantile that when anything wrong happens, it must be the man's fault.


----------



## larry.gray

turnera said:


> Calling people man-haters, I know, is really close to banworthy; my guess is he took it up a notch in the heat of the moment.


Is calling somebody a woman hater close to banworthy?

FWIW... I did recently call somebody a woman hater - In the report form. I guess it fit because they were banned. 99.97% sure they were a troll because they were brand new and posted nothing but vitriol.


----------



## turnera

JLD often has good advice. Where it goes wrong is when she fails to account for the men in the situation not being the strong, wise, upstanding men that her husband apparently is. She seems to think that all men are like that when in reality, most are just as flawed as most of the women.


----------



## Amplexor

Kev's ban will end later today. He is welcome to ask me or another mod to unlock this thread if he'd like to continue his discussion. In the meantime I think a cool down in in order. Thanks.


----------



## Amplexor

Per KWK's request this thread is now open for discussion and I think it is an important one. To all members, please refrain from personal attacks, snark, baiting, insults and in general acting like a jerk. Another mod recently reminded members that the forum occasionally goes through a culling. Nuff said. Thanks.


----------



## arbitrator

Amplexor said:


> Per KWK's request this thread is now open for discussion and I think it is an important one. To all members, please refrain from personal attacks, snark, baiting, insults and in general acting like a jerk. Another mod recently reminded members that the forum occasionally goes through a culling. Nuff said. Thanks.


*Amen!*


----------



## vellocet

altawa said:


> Ok, so why was kev the only one banned?


----------



## vellocet

Ok, come on now, that picture I put up was a joke. Geez


----------



## loyallad

vellocet said:


> Ok, come on now, that picture I put up was a joke. Geez


I got a laugh from the picture. 

Seriously, we can't have something funny on here? Will I be banned for thinking that was funny?:scratchhead:


----------



## Amplexor

loyallad said:


> I got a laugh from the picture.
> 
> Seriously, we can't have something funny on here? Will I be banned for thinking that was funny?:scratchhead:


After this thread was locked for a day and cleaned up, and another that had a third of the posts removed then locked tolerance among the mods is stretched thin. V's ban (I banned him) was for three days. In light of my waning on this thread, he was pushing the envelope, he knew it, so did I. TAM had a stretch of two weeks straight of no members in the ban box, something I have never seen before in my years here. Apparently some took that as license to see how far they could push things. There are now 5 under temporary ban and a couple are gone for good.

Both Deej and I have publicly posted warnings about the bickering and what not. TAM is a place for people in crisis to come for help. Constant batting among members has become an issue. Please keep it respectful, have fun where appropriate and share your sage with those in need.

Thanks.


----------



## KingwoodKev

Glad we're back. An update. We canceled all appointments with our MC and are shopping for a new one. In the meantime somebody at work told me his mom and dad had infidelity issues and when dad had "reformed" mom had him take a polygraph. He said it might help us start from scratch with all truth. I agreed. The TSA guys I work with told me about the guy the Feds use here in Houston. Said he's really good. We called and had our appointment yesterday. It was $525 per test. I suggested to my wife that I take one too so we both knew where we stood. She jumped at that offer so obviously there were always things she wanted to know.

The place emailed us some guidelines of how we want to ask our questions to get the best reading. Basically as black and white as possible so there's either no deception or full deception. Some deception is hard to read.

Anyway, I learned a lot. Some good, some hurtful, some really surprising. We took the whole test alone with the test admin and and our results came back in sealed envelopes. They suggested we not open them until we're with our MC but are you kidding me? No way we were going to wait. We went back to the apartment (which will soon become our son's) and sat at the kitchen table promising to talk calmly and openly with each other no matter what the results. We each had a lot of questions and it would take multiple posts to list them so I'll list some highlights and obvious ones.

I'll list some for who was asked, their answer, result, and our follow up discussion

Wife: Did you love him (OM)? Answer: No. Result: No deception. She explained that she felt some feelings of closeness but never love. She knew he was creepy but sad too. She said he provided her with what she wanted which was a means to loathe herself even more. She was also abusing my prescription pain pills (war wound that led to chronic pain). I never use them but every time I go to the VA they force another bottle on me. I just chucked them in the medicine cabinet and every once in a while she threw them away, or so I thought. I should have noticed but never would have thought.


Me: Did you cheat on me when you were stationed in the Philippines? Answer: No. Result: No deception. This question floored me more than any. I haven't been in the Philippines since 1988. This woman has been doubting if I was faithful for decades and never once raised the issue with me. The cause of her fear? When I left I was a 19y/o that was new to sex and not very good at it. When I came back I knew exactly how to touch her, and do other things, and the sex was mind blowing. She assumed I learned it over there. Now here's why you should always communicate openly. You know how I learned those things? While I was there one of my sisters gave me a Christmas present subscription to Men's Health magazine. A lot of the articles focus on how to please your woman. I studied them and couldn't wait to get home and try out the new stuff with the love of my life. I never once touched a Filipina hooker nor would I. I can't have sex with anyone who's not into it and hookers are never into it. If she would have just asked she'd have known. Instead she carried this doubt for decades.


Anyway, afternoon meeting. I have more to share, some very interesting stuff. Will be back later.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Amplexor said:


> TAM had a stretch of two weeks straight of no members in the ban box, something I have never seen before in my years here.


This is why I always take the "back in my day" comments, which are getting more common, with a grain of salt.


----------



## G.J.

> Wife: Did you love him (OM)? Answer: No. Result: No deception


That's really great

Its so good to see you both moving forward together and I'm really rooting for you both


----------



## larry.gray

loyallad said:


> I got a laugh from the picture.
> 
> Seriously, we can't have something funny on here? Will I be banned for thinking that was funny?:scratchhead:


After having the OP banned and the thread degenerating into mud slinging? Not a chance.

Do you miss the irony? If more were to be banned from the posts on this verry thread, one of them would be Vel? Yeah, he was on the "side" of Kev. 

But the bannings aren't about sides but behavior.


----------



## happyman64

Very interesting results Kev.

I am glad you "both" took the initiative.

I always say communication is key.....

And you just proved me right. Very happy for both of you that you are calmly talking and sharing your concerns with each other.

Amazing how far back your wife's concerns go.

HM


----------



## manticore

KingwoodKev said:


> Wife: Did you love him (OM)? Answer: No. Result: No deception. She explained that she felt some feelings of closeness but never love. She knew he was creepy but sad too. She said he provided her with what she wanted which was a means to loathe herself even more. She was also abusing my prescription pain pills (war wound that led to chronic pain). I never use them but every time I go to the VA they force another bottle on me. I just chucked them in the medicine cabinet and every once in a while she threw them away, or so I thought. I should have noticed but never would have thought.


Dude Pfff, is just not in me to let you deceive yourself, even if I am doing no good, and you are already going full force for R (which it seems going good).

feelings change, when you make a question related to feelings many times polygraph results come inconclusives, that is why in most experts in polygraphs would tell you before hand that questions about feelings are banned, the questions have to be about facts (I am amazed that he let you ask that, I would serously question his expertise).

Many WS (specially women who were used just for sex), time later after they realize the consequences of the affair, not just lose the love feelings they had for their affair partner but also began to hate them, to loathe them, to rationalize how everything was a cry for help or a self destructive act (just convenient lies), probably if you ask her if she hated him back then and her response is yes it will probably give a positive result (as you can't remember feelings, feeling them as it was exactly at that point, probably his name right now produces her ansiety and anger when she hears it).

just be a Little rational here, so if she knew she did not loved him and just had feelings of closeness towards him and that he just was helping her to self harm her, *then why the F*ck after the DD she still wanted to be with him?*, WS whose BS is Plan A normally throw under the buss their AP without second thought, without remorse, and even burn them without mercy *(just as the OM did to your wife).*

If you want to fool yourself, fine by me, but don't try to convince yourself trough us, she cheated, she wanted the OM, she was rejected, she realized she was use, she lost her infatuation and now she is conveniently rewriting story.

I will tell you something that may help you, if things have gone the way she wanted, and she had got to live together with the OM, she would have probably realized her big mistake and how the OM was not the man she thought and how she besides the sex escapades had with him, had not that much in common (as many times happens in affairs), and she would have wanted you back.

Even so, the fact that you were plan B remains and she, OMW, OM and you will ever know that she is with you because OM did not wanted her.


----------



## MattMatt

And had you relied on the counsellors you would be nowhere nearer reconciliation. 

But you two, you are doing things like using TAM and listening to workmates.

And have decided to sack the counsellors.

Oh. Just seen where they might have a problem.


----------



## alphaomega

MountainRunner said:


> Only "beta" males go to and listen to counselors. You need to be more "Alpha" and purchase the "Married Mans Sex Life Primer" and all will be right in the world.
> 
> *wonders how much money ol' Athol is making peddling his snake oil*


It's not snake oil. Lol. It's just a book with some advise in it. You take what makes sense and toss the rest.

Same with Hs needs, her needs. That book has some awful shat in it too. But overall, it's got good advise.

Now...merge both together....

Give her some needs met...if she doesn't reciprocate at all, with no desire to meet your needs...then get alpha on her azz, hit the gym...up your rank...and find a better mate.


----------



## turnera

Kev, you're doing great. My suggestion, aside from spending more time getting DD on board than getting your relationship right at this point, is to establish a once-a-week 'state of the marriage' discussion. Where you are both free to say anything that's bothering you in a safe environment, so that these things don't sit under the surface for ANOTHER 20 years. 

It's communication - or the lack of - that ruins marriages. Focus on the communication and all three of you will be fine.

And fwiw, without attempting to sound creepy, we should meet up. We, too, have an only daughter, and live in your general neighborhood, lol. Might be fun. I was just telling my H that this year I want to start making friends, something we've seriously let slide over the years.


----------



## bfree

Kevin, you got this brother. Counselors are great, TAM is great, but you know your situation better than anyone. In your gut you know how to proceed.


----------



## NoChoice

King,
If you mentioned the drug abuse previously then I missed it. I am a firm believer that altering your brain chemistry through the use of drugs is responsible for more threads on this forum than anyone realizes. Better living through chemistry.

Good to hear you're progressing.


----------



## arbitrator

*Welcome back, Kev! Glad to see that y'all are making progress! Keep it up!*


----------



## KingwoodKev

NoChoice said:


> King,
> If you mentioned the drug abuse previously then I missed it. I am a firm believer that altering your brain chemistry through the use of drugs is responsible for more threads on this forum than anyone realizes. Better living through chemistry.
> 
> Good to hear you're progressing.


I had no idea. Nobody did. I just learned about it. It shocked me yet explained some things. My sweet girl was falling apart before my very eyes and managed to hide it from me. I thought all was well in Camelot. I was wrong. She was hurting bad but she's always been so smart and self reliant that she wanted to figure it out alone. Being a modern guy I backed off and let her figure it out. She then engaged in really self-destructive behavior and almost succeeded in destroying herself and those she loves most. I see that now. I'll never let it happen again. I now realize that there is no such thing as singular problems in a marriage no matter what it is. No problems are hers. No problems are mine. ALL problems are ours and we will always work on them together.


----------



## KingwoodKev

Manticore:


Actually when I brought up "plan a" and "plan b" (as I learned about on TAM) she thought about it and told me that the God's honest truth was that plan A involved her destroying herself and at some point taking half a bottle of vicodin and being done with it. She said there was no plan B. When she sat there with the pills several times thinking about doing it she said it was the kids and me that filled her thoughts and heart and kept her from taking too many. She said she didn't think of the OM at all during those periods. He fulfilled her need to feel even worse about herself because she has always been disgusted by cheaters.

She said the moment she snapped out of her depression and wanted to live was dday. We're sitting there watching TV and some crazy person starts banging on our door and screaming incoherently. It scared us. I went to check it out and saw OMW had stepped out into the front yard and was pacing and yelling. I went outside and yelled at her WTF? She turned and started screaming. I was out in the front yard with her, assuming she had gone crazy, and my wife was in the doorway. She screams that her husband and my wife are f'ing each other in her bed. She caught them. Keeps yelling she has video. He set off the security camera. He thought he disabled it but didn't. I assume she's totally nuts and I start yelling at her, basically "how dare you!" I turn to look at my wife and in that precise moment when our eyes met I just knew that everything I had just been told was true. Her eyes spilled the beans. She cheated because she knew I hated cheaters and she wanted to be hated by me to feed her self-loathing. How better to destroy yourself than to betray the person you love most?

She went on to say, however, that instead of feeding off that hate that it instantly zapped her out of this funk. Her words, like a lightening bolt that struck her. She didn't see hate in my eyes. She said she saw that I had just been killed. She could actually see my heart had just broken. She said that flooded her with different feelings of guilt, and even love, and shame, and that at that moment all the other feelings she had been having were gone. She really had killed me. I think I can take anything life can throw at you but I couldn't take that. She wanted rage and hate directed at her but what she got was witnessing my very soul being crushed and realized that she was 100% responsible for it.

Well, two years of pure hell later and here we are. Of course my rage set in later, as expected, but never hate. I wanted to hate her so bad but never could. She had to leave because looking at her was too painful for me and seeing what she had done was too painful for her.

You guys can call me a doormat or chump or SAP, that's cool, I don't care. I really couldn't care less about the affair anymore. I don't. I just want to help her get well and be happy and she wants to help me get well and be happy. I thought we had paradise but it never was. I understand that now.

I only offered to take the polygraph because she was really nervous about the procedure. We had only seen them on TV. I said how about I take one too and I'll go first. Piece of cake. I'm so glad I did because it turns out there were things she had been wondering for years but didn't want to bring it up.

I think this polygraph did more to help us than anything has so far. Manticore, as you said the "feelings" questions did get highlighted by the test admin. He flagged a few of our questions and said you'll probably get "some deception" as a result on these because they're a little tricky. We were ok with that because we were also going to discuss them. The thing is, on those we didn't get "some deception" we got "no deception."

BTW, she's spending the night at our house tonight. She was helping me write this and is now sleeping on the couch. I'm not recovered and she's not recovered but God I love that woman. I may have talked her into creating a profile so you can get the other perspective of my story.

Thanks to all who have helped and even to those who got me banned. That banning got me off the board and I ended up chatting with a coworker who told me about the polygraph. Maybe everything does happen for a reason.

I'll share more of the questions tomorrow in case anyone wants to do their own polygraph and wonders what to ask. We wrote our own questions and took a couple days coming up with them. Some of them got flagged by the test admin but we wanted them on there anyway and it was our $525x2 so we're going to get what we want.


----------



## Whip Morgan

Kev, I think there was a misunderstanding on either your your wife's part in reference to Manticore's post. The part he bolded, about her feelings after dday, are what he was driving at. 

I understand that, at dday, she decided that the suicdal thoughts would end. I get it. But if OM never castes her aside AFTER dday, that's where the problem was, and that's part of Manticore's post. 

If OM said to your wife :"I want to be with you" or something along those lines, the situation of the last two years would be very different. You probably wouldn't be in R that you are now. I think you know that. 

I'm sure that you're sick of hearing this Plan A/B thing. But what your wife described as Plan A/B is not what Manticore was referring to. I think you know that, and I think she knows that. You already had your answer about this, which you described in your first thread. 

I hope you're not quick to dismiss that. I know you're feeling great, but you've only just begun. It's very easy for a cheater to say that in hindsight, the feelings weren't real. Blah blah blah. Well that's simply not true. At the time, when All this **** went down, if OM didn't toss her aside, you know she'd go with him. Whether that would have worked out is irrelevant - the damage is done. That's part of Manticore's post. 

I know you say you don't care about the affair anymore. If you can accept it(everything, the affair, being Plan B) then we will be here to help you the best we can. But Manticode had excellent points that according to what you just posted, your wife didn't really address. That's going to have to be dealt with as you move along. Please don't sweep it aside.


----------



## manticore

I read your post and I hasitated to answer you, not because I didn't know what to answer, but because I am not really 100% against the idea of you Reconciling with your wife, after 2 years of proving she really wants to be with you I guess it means she is really commited and probably has learn from her mistakes and will not do it again, but I will answer you because you took your time to post a specific answer for me.




KingwoodKev said:


> Actually when I brought up "plan a" and "plan b" (as I learned about on TAM) she thought about it and told me that the God's honest truth was that plan A involved her destroying herself and at some point taking half a bottle of vicodin and being done with it. She said there was no plan B. When she sat there with the pills several times thinking about doing it she said it was the kids and me that filled her thoughts and heart and kept her from taking too many.


first you are mixing 2 kinds of plan A-B, is not the same when we talk about the R point of view or the WS during the affair point of view, when we talk about the later we specifically mean plan a (with who I want to be), plan b (with who I am willing to be if plan A does not work) sometimes the husband is not even plan B as I have read cases where the WS has more than 1 lover.



KingwoodKev said:


> God's honest truth was that plan A involved her destroying herself and at some point taking half a bottle of vicodin and being done with it.


Lies, self destructive people don't say, "Hooo I was thinking self destructive", they go and totally destroy themselves and actually go for the suicide attemp without warning, examples of these are moruturi's, badblood's, and oldsmitten's wife who when on suicides attemp and mental breakdowns after the affairs (and it was just after that extreme bahaviour that they were categorized as selfdestructives)




KingwoodKev said:


> She said she didn't think of the OM at all during those periods. He fulfilled her need to feel even worse about herself because she has always been disgusted by cheaters.
> 
> She said the moment she snapped out of her depression and wanted to live was dday.


Okey either you lied or she lied, you wrote in your original thread how she wanted to be with OM after DDay and how she got burned and got hurt when she discovered that OMW said to you that she was just an easy laid.




KingwoodKev said:


> I turn to look at my wife and in that precise moment when our eyes met I just knew that everything I had just been told was true. Her eyes spilled the beans. She cheated because she knew I hated cheaters and she wanted to be hated by me to feed her self-loathing. How better to destroy yourself than to betray the person you love most?
> 
> She went on to say, however, that instead of feeding off that hate that it instantly zapped her out of this funk. Her words, like a lightening bolt that struck her. She didn't see hate in my eyes. She said she saw that I had just been killed. She could actually see my heart had just broken. She said that flooded her with different feelings of guilt, and even love, and shame, and that at that moment all the other feelings she had been having were gone. She really had killed me. I think I can take anything life can throw at you but I couldn't take that. She wanted rage and hate directed at her but what she got was witnessing my very soul being crushed and realized that she was 100% responsible for it.


You are doing a classic rug sweeping mistake here, you are romanticizing you situation, as a classic hurting hero from a tv drama and you are describing the unique experiences that nobody else has felt before (this is also done by cheaters during their affair they romanticize their affair something as "two hurt souls that found each other starving for affection blah blah blah").

if half of this were truth she would have stopped cheating after the first time when she saw your unaware happy face knowing how much you loved her and that she was betraying that trust and love ( just as users tears and un_amor_perdido that could not watch the face of their husbands after what they did and they confessed just after one time mistake/bad choice)




KingwoodKev said:


> You guys can call me a doormat or chump or SAP, that's cool, I don't care.


again tragic drama hero



KingwoodKev said:


> I thought we had paradise but it never was. I understand that now.


I read this an other comments similar to this since you began that make me think you are making another rug sweeping mistake, you are taking blame that does not fall under you, believe me, if you id after so many years of married, you still had frecuent hot sex, romatinc details, romatinc dinners, and open communication then you were a very good marriage that she betrayed, don't put excuses for her

I am not against yout R I am against you rugsweeing the real facts.

she had sex with OM from that much time because she wanted not becuase she was "selfdestructive", she was not going to stop the affair that precisely day OMW went to your house, she did not realized her destructive bahaviour the day OMW went to your house.

If you are going to go foward with R do it with the eyes wide open


----------



## Chaparral

Rugsweeping is pretending it didn't happen. Making her leave for two years is not rugsweeping by any means. Taking a poly is not rugsweeping. Dishing out consequences is not rugsweeping? Losing her children is not rugsweeping.

Getting back together is a trial run. Look at rookie. He tried to reconcile and failed. I took my supposedly future wife back for two years, it just wasn't the same.

I hope you make it.........the hardest part has just begun.


----------



## Chaparral

BTW, you need both books linked to below. Mmslp is just for you. Njf is for you both. HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS should be on your liust too.


----------



## wmn1

manticore said:


> I read your post and I hasitated to answer you, not because I didn't know what to answer, but because I am not really 100% against the idea of you Reconciling with your wife, after 2 years of proving she really wants to be with you I guess it means she is really commited and probably has learn from her mistakes and will not do it again, but I will answer you because you took your time to post a specific answer for me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> first you are mixing 2 kinds of plan A-B, is not the same when we talk about the R point of view or the WS during the affair point of view, when we talk about the later we specifically mean plan a (with who I want to be), plan b (with who I am willing to be if plan A does not work) sometimes the husband is not even plan B as I have read cases where the WS has more than 1 lover.
> 
> 
> 
> Lies, self destructive people don't say, "Hooo I was thinking self destructive", they go and totally destroy themselves and actually go for the suicide attemp without warning, examples of these are moruturi's, badblood's, and oldsmitten's wife who when on suicides attemp and mental breakdowns after the affairs (and it was just after that extreme bahaviour that they were categorized as selfdestructives)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okey either you lied or she lied, you wrote in your original thread how she wanted to be with OM after DDay and how she got burned and got hurt when she discovered that OMW said to you that she was just an easy laid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are doing a classic rug sweeping mistake here, you are romanticizing you situation, as a classic hurting hero from a tv drama and you are describing the unique experiences that nobody else has felt before (this is also done by cheaters during their affair they romanticize their affair something as "two hurt souls that found each other starving for affection blah blah blah").
> 
> if half of this were truth she would have stopped cheating after the first time when she saw your unaware happy face knowing how much you loved her and that she was betraying that trust and love ( just as users tears and un_amor_perdido that could not watch the face of their husbands after what they did and they confessed just after one time mistake/bad choice)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> again tragic drama hero
> 
> 
> 
> I read this an other comments similar to this since you began that make me think you are making another rug sweeping mistake, you are taking blame that does not fall under you, believe me, if you id after so many years of married, you still had frecuent hot sex, romatinc details, romatinc dinners, and open communication then you were a very good marriage that she betrayed, don't put excuses for her
> 
> I am not against yout R I am against you rugsweeing the real facts.
> 
> she had sex with OM from that much time because she wanted not becuase she was "selfdestructive", she was not going to stop the affair that precisely day OMW went to your house, she did not realized her destructive bahaviour the day OMW went to your house.
> 
> If you are going to go forward with R do it with the eyes wide open


Kingwood has to be careful not to start taking blame for what happened. All of this is clearly on WW. Now his decision to R is noble and her actions are supporting it. However, if her actions are mitigated at this time, whether it be over drug use or that 'she has suffered enough already', then it may dilute the depravity of what she did and bring them closer to moral equivalence which may lead to more rugsweeping at some point. I don't think he's rugsweeping, I do think he's starting to delve further into the reasons for what she did when in reality, no reason should be acceptable IMO


----------



## MattMatt

Yikes. At the time of my RA I was not only drunk most of the time but also using more than the maximum recommended dose of codeine every day.

I wonder if that helped influence my decision to have a RA?:scratchhead:


----------



## MattMatt

wmn1 said:


> Kingwood has to be careful not to start taking blame for what happened. All of this is clearly on WW. Now his decision to R is noble and her actions are supporting it. However, if her actions are mitigated at this time, whether it be over drug use or that 'she has suffered enough already', then it may dilute the depravity of what she did and bring them closer to moral equivalence which may lead to more rugsweeping at some point. I don't think he's rugsweeping, I do think he's starting to delve further into the reasons for what she did when in reality, no reason should be acceptable IMO


Careful. Your last sentence is lurching toward "do not forgive a cheater" territory.


----------



## bfree

Chaparral said:


> Rugsweeping is pretending it didn't happen. Making her leave for two years is not rugsweeping by any means. Taking a poly is not rugsweeping. Dishing out consequences is not rugsweeping? Losing her children is not rugsweeping.
> 
> Getting back together is a trial run. Look at rookie. He tried to reconcile and failed. I took my supposedly future wife back for two years, it just wasn't the same.
> 
> I hope you make it.........the hardest part has just begun.


Although in rookie's situation he was already totally in love with another woman by the time he and his ex decided to try again. You're right, it won't be the same. They'll have to adjust to the new normal and develop new and different feelings for each other. It may not be the same but it can still be great.


----------



## turnera

KingwoodKev said:


> Manticore:
> 
> 
> Actually when I brought up "plan a" and "plan b" (as I learned about on TAM) she thought about it and told me that the God's honest truth was that plan A involved her destroying herself and at some point taking half a bottle of vicodin and being done with it. She said there was no plan B. When she sat there with the pills several times thinking about doing it she said it was the kids and me that filled her thoughts and heart and kept her from taking too many. She said she didn't think of the OM at all during those periods. He fulfilled her need to feel even worse about herself because she has always been disgusted by cheaters.


Now, see, that is why I am almost always ready to give everyone - even cheaters - one second chance. Because we have NO IDEA what's really going on in someone else's head. And it's almost NEVER what WE think it is. We aren't robots, we aren't movie villains. All of us are real people with real feelings and wants and needs and yes, dysfunctions. Our choices are halfway determined by our childhood, as much as some of you want to deny that. The brain - and its training - is MUCH stronger than we want it to be sometimes. Our conditioning takes over sometimes, even as we stand there watching ourselves in horror. Just look at the person trying to avoid one more cigarette.

People who try to paint other people black, well, who knows what they're advocating throwing away? If you'd listened to the typical chorus of the 'she's a cheater, she sucks, she's unredeemable cos female cheaters are evil b*tches, kick 'er to the curb' guys here, you'd never be experiencing this.


----------



## bfree

turnera said:


> Now, see, that is why I am almost always ready to give everyone - even cheaters - one second chance. Because we have NO IDEA what's really going on in someone else's head. And it's almost NEVER what WE think it is. We aren't robots, we aren't movie villains. All of us are real people with real feelings and wants and needs and yes, dysfunctions. Our choices are halfway determined by our childhood, as much as some of you want to deny that. The brain - and its training - is MUCH stronger than we want it to be sometimes. Our conditioning takes over sometimes, even as we stand there watching ourselves in horror. Just look at the person trying to avoid one more cigarette.
> 
> People who try to paint other people black, well, who knows what they're advocating throwing away? If you'd listened to the typical chorus of the 'she's a cheater, she sucks, she's unredeemable cos female cheaters are evil b*tches, kick 'er to the curb' guys here, you'd never be experiencing this.


True. I used to think all cheaters were irredeemable, especially the women. All it takes is meeting one truly remorseful cheater and looking into their eyes to see the pain, such overwhelming pain and paralyzing guilt, to realize the truth of what you're saying.


----------



## turnera

As I've often said, the wisest, kindest, most deserving person I've ever met in my life is a former cheater. Since she did that, she's become the most helpful person I've ever met. She used to post on a couple other forums and she helped hundreds of people turn their lives around; it was amazing to watch her skill. Her cheating formed who she turned out to be - for all our benefits.


----------



## MovingAhead

turnera said:


> As I've often said, the wisest, kindest, most deserving person I've ever met in my life is a former cheater. Since she did that, she's become the most helpful person I've ever met. She used to post on a couple other forums and she helped hundreds of people turn their lives around; it was amazing to watch her skill. Her cheating formed who she turned out to be - for all our benefits.


You know people can choose to be remorseful or they can choose to be selfish. The remorseful ones can be of a great benefit of how to move on with your life with advice on what not to do. The selfish ones can be of a great benefit of how to move on with your life on what not to do as well. Sounds like this person was not only remorseful but atoning as well. That is a rare person indeed and good for her.


----------



## KingwoodKev

Manticore, I never said that she said she wanted to be with OM. I said if he had offered for her to run off with him would she. She didn't answer. I assumed that meant she wanted him not me. A lot of posters here assumed that with me. I got a lot of "well there's your answer" responses. Why did I assume that? Because we didn't talk about it further. I stormed out and shut her down. When she finally answered that almost two years later she said "at that moment I might have." This time I didn't blow up and walk out. I stayed and talked. I asked "why?" She said that she was so disgusted with herself that she couldn't stand to be anywhere near us, especially me and our daughter. When she saw how our daughter looked at her she wanted to die. An offer to run away from that would have been attractive. She assumed by my behavior at the time that we were done and I didn't want her anymore. She assumed wrong because we didn't talk about it. Actually it took me almost two years to be okay enough to talk about it with a level head.

Maybe I didn't communicate the situation in enough detail here but a lot of the details I've just started to uncover recently. She's not a dumb woman. She had no illusions of a relationship with OM. She did what she did with him because a.) there was easy opportunity, they both worked from home a couple days a week with nobody in his house but him and b.) she learned how scummy he is and that fed her desire for self-loathing. She said he doesn't make love. He F's. It's just nasty physical screwing. All the worst parts of sex which is what she craved at that time because it was the opposite of the love at home. I get that now. This is why it was so important for me to talk about the affair itself and not rug sweep it like the former MC wanted to do.

As far as self-destructive behavior goes she was doing everything she could to demean, degrade, and destroy herself. She hated herself and was becoming all that she loathes. This is not my opinion. She has been under the care of a psychiatrist for over a year. There were times when it was suggested she was having a full blown nervous breakdown and might need to go to an in-patient facility. This was concealed from me until recently. She had ruined her family and didn't want to burden us anymore. I promptly "scolded" her for that. Keeping problems to herself is what caused this whole thing in the first place. We were the "perfect" family she didn't want to be the one that couldn't live up to that so she concealed her insecurities and self-doubts until she despised herself and wanted to self-destruct.

I even learned that she never wanted to be a professional career woman. I encouraged her to go to college and move up the corporate ladder because she's so smart and I wanted her to succeed. Now I find out she never wanted that. She just wanted to be my wife and a mom but didn't want to tell me that because she thought I'd think less of her.

Now that we have full honesty she even tells me that she hates my Harley and every time I get on it it scares her to death. She didn't want to tell me that because she knows I love it. That was my midlife crisis purchase. Guess who is putting a Harley up for sale this weekend? I enjoy riding it but when it comes to that enjoyment vs her being scared over it then there's no contest. I couldn't care less about getting rid of it if it scares her.

If you read all this a theme keeps repeating itself over and over and over. I spotted it as soon as we started getting to all these truths. The poly helped us with that immensely. The truth is she didn't fell like she could tell me any of these things. That's MY FAILURE as a husband. In my heart I know she could have come to me with any problem. Anything at all. She, however, didn't think that so that's on me. She didn't want to disappoint me or was afraid I'd think less of her. She tried to live up to standards I was setting, that I wasn't even consciously aware that I was setting, and she couldn't do it, and it almost killed her. I've even found out recently that sometimes my kids feel the same way. I was a Marine and decorated war vet. I got out, worked full time night shift and went to school full time days to earn my degree to make a better life for my family. I moved up the career ladder fast and am at the top of my profession now and make darn good money. These are standards I unknowingly set for my family and they feel like sh*t when they can't live up to them and fear disappointing me. Now I have to let them know that I never expected them to be me. I set those standards for myself and would never judge my wife or kids if they do things their own way. The fact that they didn't know this and were afraid to fail because they thought I'd be disappointed is a huge failure on my part. Especially since that couldn't be further from the truth. Again, communication is paramount.

I'm ashamed of a lot of comments I made here just a few weeks ago about all cheaters being the scum of the earth. Now I know that was an issue I needed to work on. She was dying inside and needed me worse than ever before and I didn't know, but I think I should have. I was busy thinking we had a paradise on earth marriage and maybe nobody does. I'm not saying there aren't some cheaters that aren't just bad, immoral people. Of course there are. I am now realizing that most cheaters probably aren't. They're just good people that have done a horrible thing but I also no longer believe in singular problems in a marriage. My wife cheated. She betrayed her entire family, her former best friend, and worst of all, herself. She almost accomplished her goal of destroying herself completely and took a lot of collateral destruction with her. She even thought she had destroyed another marriage and was racked with guilt and remorse over that. Since then we've learned that he had done this before and his wife didn't know. He's a serial creep that actually looks for women in distress.

I swear this, though. I'll spend the rest of my life trying to be a better man. Will I maintain high standards for myself? Yes. Does that mean I expect my wife and kids to be me? No. Never. I love them and want them to be happy in their own dreams.

Trust me, there is zero rug sweeping going on. We're still not a reunited family yet. I still have bouts of anger I need to work through. She still has self-loathing she needs to deal with. Our daughter is still very traumatized by the whole thing. I do know I'm 100% dedicated to the effort. It's worth it.


----------



## Chaparral

MattMatt said:


> Yikes. At the time of my RA I was not only drunk most of the time but also using more than the maximum recommended dose of codeine every day.
> 
> I wonder if that helped influence my decision to have a RA?:scratchhead:


No, but it explains why you didn't bang her.


----------



## Doc Who

Kev,

Oo rah, jarhead! (Or whatever it was you grunts say). Sounds like you are beginning to heal and to process. Yes, you have a long way to go, but you seem firmly on the path. And it will be bumpy. Really bumpy. As you process, the long repressed anger and sadness will boil out, even after you think you've flushed them from your system. But it can be worth it.

Glad you are doing this as a team.

I wish you much strength and blessings in your journey!

And Go Navy


----------



## Chaparral

turnera said:


> Now, see, that is why I am almost always ready to give everyone - even cheaters - one second chance. Because we have NO IDEA what's really going on in someone else's head. And it's almost NEVER what WE think it is. We aren't robots, we aren't movie villains. All of us are real people with real feelings and wants and needs and yes, dysfunctions. Our choices are halfway determined by our childhood, as much as some of you want to deny that. The brain - and its training - is MUCH stronger than we want it to be sometimes. Our conditioning takes over sometimes, even as we stand there watching ourselves in horror. Just look at the person trying to avoid one more cigarette.
> 
> People who try to paint other people black, well, who knows what they're advocating throwing away? If you'd listened to the typical chorus of the 'she's a cheater, she sucks, she's unredeemable cos female cheaters are evil b*tches, kick 'er to the curb' guys here, you'd never be experiencing this.



Guys that reconcile are very often baited, just like Kev, and get banned..........permanently. Four or five of our all time best posters have been ran off like this.


----------



## thummper

Kev, was it browbeating from your IC and MC that caused you to delete your original thread? Too bad.


----------



## Chaparral

So she felt her life was a lie and this caused her to self destruct? She was putting on a front when actually she hated her life?


----------



## bfree

Chaparral said:


> So she felt her life was a lie and this caused her to self destruct? She was putting on a front when actually she hated her life?


I think it happens more often than we think.


----------



## turnera

Chaparral said:


> Guys that reconcile are very often baited, just like Kev, and get banned..........permanently. Four or five of our all time best posters have been ran off like this.


I have no sympathy for a person who can't walk away from a keyboard before saying something he knows he shouldn't. 

fwiw, I was involved in that conversation, and I REMAINED in that conversation because some posters just continued and continued to post and post blatantly wrong information and I wanted SOMEone to be the voice of the opposing viewpoint. You could be saying I was baiting him, or that I've baited others, because I kept bringing up points, but from what I read, those WOMEN who you keep accusing of baiting were also trying to make points and were up against the same in-your-face crap as I was. To say someone was baiting is to pretend you can read their mind and know what they were thinking. You cannot. You do not.


----------



## turnera

bfree said:


> I think it happens more often than we think.


I've been doing it since I was 12. Nobody else knows it. The only reason I haven't self destructed is that I also have toxic shame and I can't bare the thought of someone thinking something bad about me.


----------



## sidney2718

turnera said:


> Now, see, that is why I am almost always ready to give everyone - even cheaters - one second chance. Because we have NO IDEA what's really going on in someone else's head. And it's almost NEVER what WE think it is. We aren't robots, we aren't movie villains. All of us are real people with real feelings and wants and needs and yes, dysfunctions. Our choices are halfway determined by our childhood, as much as some of you want to deny that. The brain - and its training - is MUCH stronger than we want it to be sometimes. Our conditioning takes over sometimes, even as we stand there watching ourselves in horror. Just look at the person trying to avoid one more cigarette.
> 
> People who try to paint other people black, well, who knows what they're advocating throwing away? If you'd listened to the typical chorus of the 'she's a cheater, she sucks, she's unredeemable cos female cheaters are evil b*tches, kick 'er to the curb' guys here, you'd never be experiencing this.


I fully agree with Turnera on this. I think what she says is very important.

I would add that it isn't wise to contradict the OP when he talks about being plan A or plan B. He may be fooling himself, but he knows much more about the situation than we do. We'd have had to be out there on the lawn when the OM's wife was screaming to even have an inkling about what was going on.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> I've been doing it since I was 12. Nobody else knows it. The only reason I haven't self destructed is that I also have toxic shame and I can't bare the thought of someone thinking something bad about me.


----------



## sidney2718

KingwoodKev said:


> Manticore, I never said that she said she wanted to be with OM. I said if he had offered for her to run off with him would she. She didn't answer. I assumed that meant she wanted him not me. A lot of posters here assumed that with me. I got a lot of "well there's your answer" responses. Why did I assume that? Because we didn't talk about it further. I stormed out and shut her down. When she finally answered that almost two years later she said "at that moment I might have." This time I didn't blow up and walk out. I stayed and talked. I asked "why?" She said that she was so disgusted with herself that she couldn't stand to be anywhere near us, especially me and our daughter. When she saw how our daughter looked at her she wanted to die. An offer to run away from that would have been attractive. She assumed by my behavior at the time that we were done and I didn't want her anymore. She assumed wrong because we didn't talk about it. Actually it took me almost two years to be okay enough to talk about it with a level head.
> 
> Maybe I didn't communicate the situation in enough detail here but a lot of the details I've just started to uncover recently. She's not a dumb woman. She had no illusions of a relationship with OM. She did what she did with him because a.) there was easy opportunity, they both worked from home a couple days a week with nobody in his house but him and b.) she learned how scummy he is and that fed her desire for self-loathing. She said he doesn't make love. He F's. It's just nasty physical screwing. All the worst parts of sex which is what she craved at that time because it was the opposite of the love at home. I get that now. This is why it was so important for me to talk about the affair itself and not rug sweep it like the former MC wanted to do.
> 
> As far as self-destructive behavior goes she was doing everything she could to demean, degrade, and destroy herself. She hated herself and was becoming all that she loathes. This is not my opinion. She has been under the care of a psychiatrist for over a year. There were times when it was suggested she was having a full blown nervous breakdown and might need to go to an in-patient facility. This was concealed from me until recently. She had ruined her family and didn't want to burden us anymore. I promptly "scolded" her for that. Keeping problems to herself is what caused this whole thing in the first place. We were the "perfect" family she didn't want to be the one that couldn't live up to that so she concealed her insecurities and self-doubts until she despised herself and wanted to self-destruct.
> 
> I even learned that she never wanted to be a professional career woman. I encouraged her to go to college and move up the corporate ladder because she's so smart and I wanted her to succeed. Now I find out she never wanted that. She just wanted to be my wife and a mom but didn't want to tell me that because she thought I'd think less of her.
> 
> Now that we have full honesty she even tells me that she hates my Harley and every time I get on it it scares her to death. She didn't want to tell me that because she knows I love it. That was my midlife crisis purchase. Guess who is putting a Harley up for sale this weekend? I enjoy riding it but when it comes to that enjoyment vs her being scared over it then there's no contest. I couldn't care less about getting rid of it if it scares her.
> 
> If you read all this a theme keeps repeating itself over and over and over. I spotted it as soon as we started getting to all these truths. The poly helped us with that immensely. The truth is she didn't fell like she could tell me any of these things. That's MY FAILURE as a husband. In my heart I know she could have come to me with any problem. Anything at all. She, however, didn't think that so that's on me. She didn't want to disappoint me or was afraid I'd think less of her. She tried to live up to standards I was setting, that I wasn't even consciously aware that I was setting, and she couldn't do it, and it almost killed her. I've even found out recently that sometimes my kids feel the same way. I was a Marine and decorated war vet. I got out, worked full time night shift and went to school full time days to earn my degree to make a better life for my family. I moved up the career ladder fast and am at the top of my profession now and make darn good money. These are standards I unknowingly set for my family and they feel like sh*t when they can't live up to them and fear disappointing me. Now I have to let them know that I never expected them to be me. I set those standards for myself and would never judge my wife or kids if they do things their own way. The fact that they didn't know this and were afraid to fail because they thought I'd be disappointed is a huge failure on my part. Especially since that couldn't be further from the truth. Again, communication is paramount.
> 
> I'm ashamed of a lot of comments I made here just a few weeks ago about all cheaters being the scum of the earth. Now I know that was an issue I needed to work on. She was dying inside and needed me worse than ever before and I didn't know, but I think I should have. I was busy thinking we had a paradise on earth marriage and maybe nobody does. I'm not saying there aren't some cheaters that aren't just bad, immoral people. Of course there are. I am now realizing that most cheaters probably aren't. They're just good people that have done a horrible thing but I also no longer believe in singular problems in a marriage. My wife cheated. She betrayed her entire family, her former best friend, and worst of all, herself. She almost accomplished her goal of destroying herself completely and took a lot of collateral destruction with her. She even thought she had destroyed another marriage and was racked with guilt and remorse over that. Since then we've learned that he had done this before and his wife didn't know. He's a serial creep that actually looks for women in distress.
> 
> I swear this, though. I'll spend the rest of my life trying to be a better man. Will I maintain high standards for myself? Yes. Does that mean I expect my wife and kids to be me? No. Never. I love them and want them to be happy in their own dreams.
> 
> Trust me, there is zero rug sweeping going on. We're still not a reunited family yet. I still have bouts of anger I need to work through. She still has self-loathing she needs to deal with. Our daughter is still very traumatized by the whole thing. I do know I'm 100% dedicated to the effort. It's worth it.


Kev, I think you and your wife are going to make it. Your attitude seems to be sane, intelligent, and reasonable. I'd hope that everyone here reads it at least twice (I've done it three times) and digests what you are saying.

That doesn't mean that you can relax. But because you recognize your contribution to the breakdown of communication between you and your wife, you stand a good chance of being able to talk issues out.

Of course your wife needs to be able to trust you, but that is mainly under your control.

One last thing. Your daughter. As a second project (you and your wife are the first project) both you and your wife can set about reassuring her that she is loved, that none of this is her fault, and that when it comes to her, you and your wife will always be together.


----------



## jld

sidney2718 said:


> But because you recognize your contribution to the breakdown of communication between you and your wife, you stand a good chance of being able to talk issues out.
> 
> Of course your wife needs to be able to trust you, but that is mainly under your control.


:iagree:


----------



## GusPolinski

Doc Who said:


> Kev,
> 
> Oo rah, jarhead! (Or whatever it was you grunts say). Sounds like you are beginning to heal and to process. Yes, you have a long way to go, but you seem firmly on the path. And it will be bumpy. Really bumpy. As you process, the long repressed anger and sadness will boil out, even after you think you've flushed them from your system. But it can be worth it.
> 
> Glad you are doing this as a team.
> 
> I wish you much strength and blessings in your journey!
> 
> *And Go Navy*


Gus: <Teasingly> "Hey, aren't the Marines a part of the Navy? It's right there on the seal... 'Department of the Navy'..."

Marine Buddy: "Yeah, the MEN'S department!"


----------



## Chaparral

turnera said:


> I have no sympathy for a person who can't walk away from a keyboard before saying something he knows he shouldn't.
> 
> fwiw, I was involved in that conversation, and I REMAINED in that conversation because some posters just continued and continued to post and post blatantly wrong information and I wanted SOMEone to be the voice of the opposing viewpoint. You could be saying I was baiting him, or that I've baited others, because I kept bringing up points, but from what I read, those WOMEN who you keep accusing of baiting were also trying to make points and were up against the same in-your-face crap as I was. To say someone was baiting is to pretend you can read their mind and know what they were thinking. You cannot. You do not.


Youre mistaken, I have no idea what you said on that thread. I was only speaking about one person that kept trying to make one point, over and over and over and it was obvious it was rattleing Kev. As I said before hopefully it wasn't intentional but at best it was insensitive to a person going through hell.

What did you say that made you think I thought you were baiting him?


----------



## bfree

turnera said:


> I've been doing it since I was 12. Nobody else knows it. The only reason I haven't self destructed is that I also have toxic shame and I can't bare the thought of someone thinking something bad about me.


Well I'm all about balance but that's one hell of a combination!


----------



## turnera

Chaparral said:


> What did you say that made you think I thought you were baiting him?


I know you weren't talking about me. But I was being just as insistent as the two women you ARE referring to. So just because you didn't like what they were saying, they were baiting and I wasn't? We all react to our own triggers, and it seems to me like they hit yours. Still doesn't mean they WERE baiting him. IMO, they were just trying to get someone to acknowledge their points, just like I was, just like you were, just like we all always are. That is all.


----------



## turnera

bfree said:


> Well I'm all about balance but that's one hell of a combination!


Hell is right. Don't wanna be here, can't leave.


----------



## Chaparral

turnera said:


> I know you weren't talking about me. But I was being just as insistent as the two women you ARE referring to. So just because you didn't like what they were saying, they were baiting and I wasn't? We all react to our own triggers, and it seems to me like they hit yours. Still doesn't mean they WERE baiting him. IMO, they were just trying to get someone to acknowledge their points, just like I was, just like you were, just like we all always are. That is all.


There is no one on this board I respect more than you.

I wasn't talking about plural people at all. I was talking about someone that pulling a Rookie thread jack about one point, over and over. I read through the thread to see what got him banned and it was obvious to me who set him up, intentionally or not. Posters that keep hammering the same message, like someone cant hear them, are doing more harm than good. This is proven, IMHO, by the permanent bands to excellent posters with wonderful advice, over several years. Mostly those that chose to reconcile.

Take two of these and call me in the morning. Dump A Day Funny Picture Dump Of The Day - 54 Pics

:smthumbup:


----------



## Wolfman1968

KingwoodKev said:


> Manticore, I never said that she said she wanted to be with OM. I said if he had offered for her to run off with him would she. She didn't answer. I assumed that meant she wanted him not me.


I thought that in your "she answered my question" thread, you said she DID say she would have run off with him if he had wanted her.

Did I misread that?


----------



## wmn1

MattMatt said:


> Careful. Your last sentence is lurching toward "do not forgive a cheater" territory.


no. I feel that no reason for cheating is acceptable. I do stand by that Matt. However, whether someone forgives or not is on them. My statement was more of an anti-blameshifting statement than one of whether to forgive or not to forgive.

Kingwood said in this thread "her problems are my problems, mine are hers and ours is ours" and I agree with this but I do not feel that it addresses who created the problems and who was responsible for them.

If my wife torched my house intentionally tonight, it's both of our problems but she created it. An example.

It seems like Kingwood is opening himself up to taking some of the blame and I don't think he should.

That's all


----------



## KingwoodKev

Wolfman1968 said:


> I thought that in your "she answered my question" thread, you said she DID say she would have run off with him if he had wanted her.
> 
> Did I misread that?


That was much later when she actually answered the question. The first time I asked her that was probably 18 months ago. The first time I asked her.


----------



## wmn1

KingwoodKev said:


> If you read all this a theme keeps repeating itself over and over and over. I spotted it as soon as we started getting to all these truths. The poly helped us with that immensely. The truth is she didn't fell like she could tell me any of these things. That's MY FAILURE as a husband. In my heart I know she could have come to me with any problem. Anything at all. She, however, didn't think that so that's on me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *****How ??? How is this on you ??? You don't have telepathy and you can't force things out of her. her failure to not come to you is on her.
> 
> ******I am not saying you are perfect nor didn't do anything wrong although I don't see where you have in this case. However, communication is a two way street and her not coming to you is on her as is her affair.
> 
> She didn't want to disappoint me or was afraid I'd think less of her. She tried to live up to standards I was setting, that I wasn't even consciously aware that I was setting, and she couldn't do it, and it almost killed her.
> 
> 
> ***** So your wanting her to achieve and be successful was your failure ???? If she had come to you and said it wasn't what she wanted and you forced her anyway, then maybe you could share some fault. However, she didn't come to you, she didn't communicate, you wanted her to be successful, she resented that and had a F fest with another guy and you are blaming yourself ??? That makes no sense to me..
> 
> 
> 
> I'm ashamed of a lot of comments I made here just a few weeks ago about all cheaters being the scum of the earth.
> 
> 
> ***** Many are scum, some aren't.
> 
> 
> Now I know that was an issue I needed to work on. She was dying inside and needed me worse than ever before and I didn't know, but I think I should have. I was busy thinking we had a paradise on earth marriage and maybe nobody does. I'm not saying there aren't some cheaters that aren't just bad, immoral people. Of course there are. I am now realizing that most cheaters probably aren't.
> 
> 
> ***** I wouldn't say most. I would say some are and some aren't but what percentage, we really don't know. Many of the ones I know or knew were really scummy.


----------



## wmn1

Wolfman1968 said:


> I thought that in your "she answered my question" thread, you said she DID say she would have run off with him if he had wanted her.
> 
> Did I misread that?


he did say that


----------



## sidney2718

wmn1 said:


> no. I feel that no reason for cheating is acceptable. I do stand by that Matt. However, whether someone forgives or not is on them. My statement was more of an anti-blameshifting statement than one of whether to forgive or not to forgive.
> 
> Kingwood said in this thread "her problems are my problems, mine are hers and ours is ours" and I agree with this but I do not feel that it addresses who created the problems and who was responsible for them.
> 
> If my wife torched my house intentionally tonight, it's both of our problems but she created it. An example.
> 
> It seems like Kingwood is opening himself up to taking some of the blame and I don't think he should.
> 
> That's all


To claim that nothing a BS did could ever have contributed to the WS's infidelity is just silly. Sure, the WS didn't have to chose infidelity, but the BS didn't have to beat her up every night either.

Just sayin'...


----------



## MovingAhead

sidney2718 said:


> To claim that nothing a BS did could ever have contributed to the WS's infidelity is just silly. Sure, the WS didn't have to chose infidelity, but the BS didn't have to beat her up every night either.
> 
> Just sayin'...


I disagree. The in NOTHING that a BS can do to make his or her WS CHEAT. Now if a BS is not showing respect, love, attention etc... then the spouse who is at the receiving end has every right to leave, file for divorce etc... but cheating is the sole decision of the WS.

I know it seems a little like splitting hairs but it is not. There is a huge difference between a spouse who walks away and says why and a spouse who betrays the marriage with someone else.

The BS may not be the perfect person and really may need to get a lot of stuff together but sometimes the cheater cheats because they really wanted to whether it was the thrill of attention, the allure of a bygone lover, a missed chance. Whose choice is it to cheat? The cheaters...

I am not saying that cheaters are all bad and BS are all good. I am laying responsibility for the choices that were made where they belong.


----------



## Thundarr

wmn1 said:


> no. I feel that no reason for cheating is acceptable. I do stand by that Matt. However, whether someone forgives or not is on them. My statement was more of an anti-blameshifting statement than one of whether to forgive or not to forgive.
> 
> Kingwood said in this thread "her problems are my problems, mine are hers and ours is ours" and I agree with this but I do not feel that it addresses who created the problems and who was responsible for them.
> 
> If my wife torched my house intentionally tonight, it's both of our problems but she created it. An example.
> 
> It seems like Kingwood is opening himself up to taking some of the blame and I don't think he should.
> 
> That's all
> 
> 
> sidney2718 said:
> 
> 
> 
> To claim that nothing a BS did could ever have contributed to the WS's infidelity is just silly. Sure, the WS didn't have to chose infidelity, but the BS didn't have to beat her up every night either.
> 
> Just sayin'...
Click to expand...

Sidney, my thoughts are the correct response to wmn1's comment was "what blame are you talking about wmn1?". I'm pretty sure he would say he was talking about taking Kev's wife's choice to commit infidelity and not the shared blame for whatever other things were going on. The point is, too many TAM members on both sides of this BS/WS crap are creating an unnecessary divide.


----------



## wmn1

sidney2718 said:


> To claim that nothing a BS did could ever have contributed to the WS's infidelity is just silly. Sure, the WS didn't have to chose infidelity, but the BS didn't have to beat her up every night either.
> 
> Just sayin'...


It's not silly and in fact Sidney, I am throwing the bs flag here. I never said he didn't do something to contribute to the problems in the marriage although I am still trying to figure out what he did wrong but he is not perfect. The infidelity was all on her and was all about her.


----------



## wmn1

MovingAhead said:


> I disagree. The in NOTHING that a BS can do to make his or her WS CHEAT. Now if a BS is not showing respect, love, attention etc... then the spouse who is at the receiving end has every right to leave, file for divorce etc... but cheating is the sole decision of the WS.
> 
> I know it seems a little like splitting hairs but it is not. There is a huge difference between a spouse who walks away and says why and a spouse who betrays the marriage with someone else.
> 
> The BS may not be the perfect person and really may need to get a lot of stuff together but sometimes the cheater cheats because they really wanted to whether it was the thrill of attention, the allure of a bygone lover, a missed chance. Whose choice is it to cheat? The cheaters...
> 
> I am not saying that cheaters are all bad and BS are all good. I am laying responsibility for the choices that were made where they belong.


:iagree:


----------



## wmn1

Thundarr said:


> Sidney, my thoughts are the correct response to wmn1's comment was "what blame are you talking about wmn1?". I'm pretty sure he would say he was talking about taking Kev's wife's choice to commit infidelity and not the shared blame for whatever other things were going on. The point is, too many TAM members on both sides of this BS/WS crap are creating an unnecessary divide.


that is correct. That is what I was talking about


----------



## KingwoodKev

For wife: Did you have any sexual contact with (OM) in our house? Answer: No. Result: No deception.

For wife: Have you had any communication with (OM) since the discovery of the affair? Answer: No. Result: No deception.

For wife: Have you ever had any sexual contact or sexual-related communications with any other men while married? Answer: No. Result: No deception.

There are other more explicit questions about the affair that my wife has asked me not to share.

For me: Have you ever had any sexual contact or sexually-related communications with any other women while married? Answer: No. Result: No deception.



Sorry, I know these are kind of vanilla but I think the gist of the issue has been covered.

I want to thank everyone for all the advice. I think I'm going to take a break from this forum for a while. I read too many stories where fresh betrayal is involved and it triggers me to feel really sad and then angry.

We're taking it slow and doing ok for now. She's here again tonight and has fallen asleep on the couch again. I do love watching her sleep on my couch. We haven't gone back to our bed yet. We're crashing on the couches. She gets the big couch, nice and comfy, and I get the loveseat, legs hanging over the arm. That's how it always was when we fell asleep watching a late movie. It just wouldn't feel right at this point spending the night in our bed. We'll get there.

I'll check in again. You guys take it easy.


----------



## Suspecting2014

KingwoodKev said:


> For wife: Did you have any sexual contact with (OM) in our house? Answer: No. Result: No deception.
> 
> For wife: Have you had any communication with (OM) since the discovery of the affair? Answer: No. Result: No deception.
> 
> For wife: Have you ever had any sexual contact or sexual-related communications with any other men while married? Answer: No. Result: No deception.
> 
> There are other more explicit questions about the affair that my wife has asked me not to share.
> 
> For me: Have you ever had any sexual contact or sexually-related communications with any other women while married? Answer: No. Result: No deception.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, I know these are kind of vanilla but I think the gist of the issue has been covered.
> 
> I want to thank everyone for all the advice. I think I'm going to take a break from this forum for a while. I read too many stories where fresh betrayal is involved and it triggers me to feel really sad and then angry.
> 
> We're taking it slow and doing ok for now. She's here again tonight and has fallen asleep on the couch again. I do love watching her sleep on my couch. We haven't gone back to our bed yet. We're crashing on the couches. She gets the big couch, nice and comfy, and I get the loveseat, legs hanging over the arm. That's how it always was when we fell asleep watching a late movie. It just wouldn't feel right at this point spending the night in our bed. We'll get there.
> 
> I'll check in again. You guys take it easy.


I am really glad for you!

Take your time.

Just one thing, How is your D doing? What does she thinks/feels about your wife sleeping in her house? You sleeping at hers?

I know you are doing well but try to match your recovery to your D so she wont feel is loosing her Dad.

Good luck


----------



## MattMatt

MovingAhead said:


> I disagree. The in NOTHING that a BS can do to make his or her WS CHEAT. Now if a BS is not showing respect, love, attention etc... then the spouse who is at the receiving end has every right to leave, file for divorce etc... but cheating is the sole decision of the WS.
> 
> I know it seems a little like splitting hairs but it is not. There is a huge difference between a spouse who walks away and says why and a spouse who betrays the marriage with someone else.
> 
> The BS may not be the perfect person and really may need to get a lot of stuff together but sometimes the cheater cheats because they really wanted to whether it was the thrill of attention, the allure of a bygone lover, a missed chance. Whose choice is it to cheat? The cheaters...
> 
> I am not saying that cheaters are all bad and BS are all good. I am laying responsibility for the choices that were made where they belong.


Let's do an analogy.

If you are a store owner and you see a child (say a young cousin) stealing from the store, what would do you?

Call the cops? Shoot them dead? Call their parents to deal with them?

One, maybe both of those options, is utterly inappropriate.

Another scenario, you read in the local paper how someone who claims a business owes him some money, enters the premises and (without a court order) takes goods and property to the value of the money he is owed.

He is arrested for theft, even though it transpires the owner of the business did owe him the money.

Why was he arrested? Because he attempted to correct a wrongful action by another wrongful action.

Let's look at another scenario.

You realise your spouse is cheating on you or is totally ignoring your emotional needs to the point it's almost abusive.

What do you do? Call them on their bad behaviour? Beat them up physically? Leave without telling them a damn thing? Ask for couple's counselling? Or have an affair?

Again, one or more of those options is utterly inappropriate.

But it would be illogical, wrong, even, to argue that the "loyal" (sic) spouse had no input into the problems that he/she brought to their marriage. 

Of course, the decision to solve the problem by cheating is wrong, but if a spouse cheats because they are sickened by the wrongful behaviour of their other half, then their behaviour, if not excusable, is, to some extent, understandable.

Years ago, my mother had a friend who, after her marriage, decided to do no housework and no cooking, leaving it all up to her husband who had to do it all when he arrived home from work, as she had sat on her behind all day, reading. She also overate to the point of becoming morbidly obese.

When my mother called her on her behaviour, she laughed and said: "Why should I worry about what he thinks? He keeps complaining, but he's my husband and I have him and there's nothing he can do about it!"

My mother warned her that she might chase him off into the arms of another woman. Her friend scoffed at this.

But eventually he fell into an EA with another woman and left his wife for her.

His wife was devastated. She said to my mother: "Didn't our marriage mean anything to him?"

My mother became furious with her and said: "Why should your marriage mean anything to him when it didn't mean anything to you?"

Was he wrong to cheat? Yes. He should have divorced her first.

But when people are badly hurt by the one person who is supposed to love them and have their back, the psychological damage caused can mean that they do things that are out of character and they handle a situation wrongly.

The cheating by a spouse is not as magic sponge to wash away all the wrong doing of the "loyal" (sic) spouse.

Or put it another way, If two dogs s**t on the carpet, both need to be disciplined and both messes cleaned up.


----------



## NoChoice

KingwoodKev said:


> Manticore:
> 
> 
> Actually when I brought up "plan a" and "plan b" (as I learned about on TAM) she thought about it and told me that the God's honest truth was that plan A involved her destroying herself and at some point taking half a bottle of vicodin and being done with it. She said there was no plan B. When she sat there with the pills several times thinking about doing it she said it was the kids and me that filled her thoughts and heart and kept her from taking too many. She said she didn't think of the OM at all during those periods. He fulfilled her need to feel even worse about herself because she has always been disgusted by cheaters.
> 
> She said the moment she snapped out of her depression and wanted to live was dday. We're sitting there watching TV and some crazy person starts banging on our door and screaming incoherently. It scared us. I went to check it out and saw OMW had stepped out into the front yard and was pacing and yelling. I went outside and yelled at her WTF? She turned and started screaming. I was out in the front yard with her, assuming she had gone crazy, and my wife was in the doorway. She screams that her husband and my wife are f'ing each other in her bed. She caught them. Keeps yelling she has video. He set off the security camera. He thought he disabled it but didn't. I assume she's totally nuts and I start yelling at her, basically "how dare you!" I turn to look at my wife and in that precise moment when our eyes met I just knew that everything I had just been told was true. Her eyes spilled the beans. She cheated because she knew I hated cheaters and she wanted to be hated by me to feed her self-loathing. How better to destroy yourself than to betray the person you love most?
> 
> She went on to say, however, that instead of feeding off that hate that it instantly zapped her out of this funk. Her words, like a lightening bolt that struck her. She didn't see hate in my eyes. She said she saw that I had just been killed. She could actually see my heart had just broken. She said that flooded her with different feelings of guilt, and even love, and shame, and that at that moment all the other feelings she had been having were gone. She really had killed me. I think I can take anything life can throw at you but I couldn't take that. She wanted rage and hate directed at her but what she got was witnessing my very soul being crushed and realized that she was 100% responsible for it.
> 
> Well, two years of pure hell later and here we are. Of course my rage set in later, as expected, but never hate. I wanted to hate her so bad but never could. She had to leave because looking at her was too painful for me and seeing what she had done was too painful for her.
> 
> You guys can call me a doormat or chump or SAP, that's cool, I don't care. I really couldn't care less about the affair anymore. I don't. I just want to help her get well and be happy and she wants to help me get well and be happy. I thought we had paradise but it never was. I understand that now.
> 
> I only offered to take the polygraph because she was really nervous about the procedure. We had only seen them on TV. I said how about I take one too and I'll go first. Piece of cake. I'm so glad I did because it turns out there were things she had been wondering for years but didn't want to bring it up.
> 
> I think this polygraph did more to help us than anything has so far. Manticore, as you said the "feelings" questions did get highlighted by the test admin. He flagged a few of our questions and said you'll probably get "some deception" as a result on these because they're a little tricky. We were ok with that because we were also going to discuss them. The thing is, on those we didn't get "some deception" we got "no deception."
> 
> BTW, she's spending the night at our house tonight. She was helping me write this and is now sleeping on the couch. I'm not recovered and she's not recovered but God I love that woman. I may have talked her into creating a profile so you can get the other perspective of my story.
> 
> Thanks to all who have helped and even to those who got me banned. That banning got me off the board and I ended up chatting with a coworker who told me about the polygraph. Maybe everything does happen for a reason.
> 
> I'll share more of the questions tomorrow in case anyone wants to do their own polygraph and wonders what to ask. We wrote our own questions and took a couple days coming up with them. Some of them got flagged by the test admin but we wanted them on there anyway and it was our $525x2 so we're going to get what we want.





KingwoodKev said:


> I had no idea. Nobody did. I just learned about it. It shocked me yet explained some things. My sweet girl was falling apart before my very eyes and managed to hide it from me. I thought all was well in Camelot. I was wrong. She was hurting bad but she's always been so smart and self reliant that she wanted to figure it out alone. Being a modern guy I backed off and let her figure it out. She then engaged in really self-destructive behavior and almost succeeded in destroying herself and those she loves most. I see that now. I'll never let it happen again. I now realize that there is no such thing as singular problems in a marriage no matter what it is. No problems are hers. No problems are mine. ALL problems are ours and we will always work on them together.


King,
I know you're on a break from this forum and may not read this but I needed to express the thought anyway. In regard to your daughter(s). They have experienced, first hand, the abject consequences of depression and drug abuse. This should be a glaring lesson to them that if it can happen to their Mom it can happen to anybody. They have seen how damaging and self deluding drug use can be especially when mixed with depression.

But they have also seen fortitude and determination and what those forces can do to when applied to one's life. Your wife beat her demons and your daughters had a front row seat to the show. They will forever have a deep understanding of the harm and havoc drugs can wield and how even "good" people can fall victim to their wiles. They need to see that their Mom was in a battle, fighting for life itself and they need to know that in her deepest despair the thoughts of them and her family are what saved her life.

It was/is a hard lesson but to quote a wise man "maybe things really do happen for a reason".

I am so very pleased at how this has played out and I wish all the best for your family as you two continue this journey. Good fortune and Godspeed.


----------



## MovingAhead

Kev, good luck brother. I wish you the best on R or whatever you choose.


----------



## MattMatt

MovingAhead said:


> OK Matt let us take my specific example...
> 
> And BTW, all of you stories agreed with everything I said so this is an exercise in Retarded-ness. I'll make up stupid words to show that I am exercising stupidity.
> 
> EX wanted a divorce, she was cheating with the neighbor's brother... Tried to work it out, but she wanted to leave... 'to see if she would miss me'... Doesn't speak to me for months... D is imminent.
> 
> 7 months later she moves out. I say once she moves out, I am done. Marriage is over but papers are not filed. She moves out and is fvcking other men.
> 
> I start dating before my papers are final. Was I wrong? (Yes) I was still committing adultery on paper if nothing else. Was it understandable (Yes) We were done.
> 
> I could have chosen to be a better man and wait but I was just done. I was wrong but honestly no one could blame me unless they are just an angry bitter woman like you see on this forum sometimes.
> 
> Some people here have no idea what infidelity does to other people but love to sit and judge.
> 
> In fact your whole analogy was asinine as I said the deeds were wrong and I also said that it doesn't mean that the WS is awful and BS is great. I don't like to argue for the sake of arguing and nothing you described contradicted anything I said.


Even a fairly cursory perusal of the TAM rules doesn't show anywhere a rule stating: "It's expected that posters should be rude, argumentative dismissive and condescending to other members at TAM." In fact, I am certain that the TAM rules state exactly the opposite of that.

You seem unable to interact civilly with other people on TAM even if 


> nothing you described contradicted anything I said.


----------



## wmn1

MattMatt said:


> Let's do an analogy.
> 
> If you are a store owner and you see a child (say a young cousin) stealing from the store, what would do you?
> 
> Call the cops? Shoot them dead? Call their parents to deal with them?
> 
> One, maybe both of those options, is utterly inappropriate.
> 
> Another scenario, you read in the local paper how someone who claims a business owes him some money, enters the premises and (without a court order) takes goods and property to the value of the money he is owed.
> 
> He is arrested for theft, even though it transpires the owner of the business did owe him the money.
> 
> Why was he arrested? Because he attempted to correct a wrongful action by another wrongful action.
> 
> Let's look at another scenario.
> 
> You realise your spouse is cheating on you or is totally ignoring your emotional needs to the point it's almost abusive.
> 
> What do you do? Call them on their bad behaviour? Beat them up physically? Leave without telling them a damn thing? Ask for couple's counselling? Or have an affair?
> 
> Again, one or more of those options is utterly inappropriate.
> 
> But it would be illogical, wrong, even, to argue that the "loyal" (sic) spouse had no input into the problems that he/she brought to their marriage.
> 
> Of course, the decision to solve the problem by cheating is wrong, but if a spouse cheats because they are sickened by the wrongful behaviour of their other half, then their behaviour, if not excusable, is, to some extent, understandable.
> 
> Years ago, my mother had a friend who, after her marriage, decided to do no housework and no cooking, leaving it all up to her husband who had to do it all when he arrived home from work, as she had sat on her behind all day, reading. She also overate to the point of becoming morbidly obese.
> 
> When my mother called her on her behaviour, she laughed and said: "Why should I worry about what he thinks? He keeps complaining, but he's my husband and I have him and there's nothing he can do about it!"
> 
> My mother warned her that she might chase him off into the arms of another woman. Her friend scoffed at this.
> 
> But eventually he fell into an EA with another woman and left his wife for her.
> 
> His wife was devastated. She said to my mother: "Didn't our marriage mean anything to him?"
> 
> My mother became furious with her and said: "Why should your marriage mean anything to him when it didn't mean anything to you?"
> 
> Was he wrong to cheat? Yes. He should have divorced her first.
> 
> But when people are badly hurt by the one person who is supposed to love them and have their back, the psychological damage caused can mean that they do things that are out of character and they handle a situation wrongly.
> 
> The cheating by a spouse is not as magic sponge to wash away all the wrong doing of the "loyal" (sic) spouse.
> 
> Or put it another way, If two dogs s**t on the carpet, both need to be disciplined and both messes cleaned up.




Very thoughtful post Matt and you make a few good points but I disagree with the overall message and I will tell you why.

I will do this through analogies though I would like to make one point first. While Kingwood seems to be starting a trend of self blame, I don't see anywhere in any of his threads where he did anything to cause his wife to be depraved enough to do what she did (notice I say depraved for past actions, not her current state of mind). So I feel we are making assumptions that Kingwood did something to cause her to commit an act that is about as destructive to any relationship that one can do. That's where this thread is starting to reach, the opinions that ('Kev's wife is a great woman and a great woman wouldn't do that unless he did something so mean and cruel that it forced her into the affair') and I find that to be BS because we have nothing to the contrary to suggest he did anything wrong and I stand by my point that even if he did, the affair was wrong.

I went to a hockey game yesterday. One of my buddies was there. His wife took a day off of work and he worked 17 hours. He came home exhausted. All she was supposed to do was take a bag of salt and throw it on the driveway. She didn't do this, he slipped and fell. He got hurt. He came inside and was frustrated but bit his lip and said nothing but she forced the issue and called him clumsy for falling. He snapped back "the only thing I needed you to do was salt our small driveway, a 10 minute job and you couldn't do that ?". She blew up at him and wouldn't speak to him for 48 hours. #1) He did nothing wrong #2) He's not perfect but he is the innocent one in this case #3) She's not perfect and is the guilty one in this case #4) She could have apologized and said "Damn, I forgot to put the salt down and I am sorry You slipped. I will make amends", instead she went into 'nasty' mode and shut him out for 48 hours over something that was entirely his fault. Now she is starting to apologize after causing him more unnecessary pain than he deserved.

In relation to Kingwood's thread, in comparison to my story above #1) Is the same, there is nothing to suggest he did anything wrong. yes, he pressed her for success which is not wrong and she didn't say 'back down, I don't want this' and him not having osmosis or telepathy, couldn't read her mind and shouldn't be expected to and there's nothing wrong with supporting someone's success. So he expected her to be successful and to be loyal, just like my friend expected his wife to enjoy a deserved day off but take 10 minutes to throw salt on the driveway. he shouldn't be expected to sit at his desk at 1 P.M. while busy at work and say "my brain is telling me that there is a 10% chance that she is not salting the driveway so I will assume she's not and start badgering her to do it". So Kingwood's wife cheated even though there is no evidence to suggest he did anything wrong. Even if he did, cheating is not the answer. It is an independent and greedy event that is damaging to all involved. My friend's wife didn't talk to him for 48 hours even though he didn't do anything wrong, she did.

So Kingwood's wife was wrong for not communicating with him, allowing herself to fall apart as a person without reaching out to the guy who vowed to help her always, cheated on him in a greedy, nasty affair while this guy was off (I believe risking his life for our country) somewhere else oblivious to the fact that she is stepping out on him and all some on here can do is say "Hey Kev, there must have been something you did to get someone to destroy your life that way" without any evidence of such things.

This "let's assign blame to everyone" crowd (and NO MATT, I don't put you in that group BTW),whether on this board or in Kingwood's personal life now has him making excuses for his wife's behavior and self blaming for really insane things. 

In relation to my point 4 above, we are all expected to honor our vows and moral standards. Any time we step out of what we are expected to do and cause damage, that is on that individual and that individual only. I came home the other day and my wife was angry because she spilled water on the floor while making dinner. I didn't see this and came up the stirs and asked her what she was making. She got angry. To myself, I said "ok whatever, I will give her a minute to calm down but asked her if she needed any help first". I didn't go into the kitchen, take another pot or two of water and dump it on the ground. I Didn't go upstairs and pout for 24 hours because she snapped at me, and I didn't go into the kitchen and get in her face and yell back. I also didn't go upstairs and say "man, she must be yelling at me because I forgot to put the garbage out for pickup three days ago". 

We all know that noone is perfect but this stuff about assigning blame can get $tupid as well. I saw my wife busting her arse after a tough day at work, I recognized that she needed help and maybe a few minutes of space and didn't force the issue but let her decid which was better for her and she apologized 15 minutes later and all was good. There was no self depraving, relationship destroying knee jerk reactions that I took to take a problem that was rectifiable and turn it into 'burning the house down' type catastrophe that Kingwood's WW did.

So this is my final point and regardless of what Kingwood thinks; 

based on the info we were provided in this thread, I think we are starting to make assumptions (or some are) which are trying to mitigate what she did in an effort to support Kingwood's R with the ultimate victim being the truth. We are burying ,for the 'greater good' , what really occurred for the ultimate purpose of supporting reconciliation. However, some here can't bury the truth because the truth is ultimately what things really are. And while R is Kingwood's ultimate aim and we all support his objective there, that doesn't mean we have to mold or shift the truth to make it sound better more self gratifying to us here on TAM or at least to some

I take the case of Daniel. I disagreed when he allowed the EA in his case to justify what his WW wife did. I really pray for his R to be successful like I do with Kingwood. But during that thread, I never equated his actions with hers and said her reaction was on steroids. (Sorry for bringing this up Daniel). There were 500 things she could have done to get through to Daniel and would have been justified in many of them but she took the most destructive route and caused pain for everybody times 10. Kingwood's wife did the same and while I am not saying "hey everyone, let's stone these people to death", trying to find blame and mitigate what they did and pining things on the damaged parties, even if it doesn't exist (It did to some degree in Daniel's case) just to make everyone feel good is ignoring the truth and in my opinion disingenuous and I won't be on that train with people who will do that. I will not be part of helping turn people into self created cuckolds


----------



## wmn1

MovingAhead said:


> OK Matt let us take my specific example...
> 
> And BTW, all of you stories agreed with everything I said so this is an exercise in Retarded-ness. I'll make up stupid words to show that I am exercising stupidity.
> 
> EX wanted a divorce, she was cheating with the neighbor's brother... Tried to work it out, but she wanted to leave... 'to see if she would miss me'... Doesn't speak to me for months... D is imminent.
> 
> 7 months later she moves out. I say once she moves out, I am done. Marriage is over but papers are not filed. She moves out and is fvcking other men.
> 
> I start dating before my papers are final. Was I wrong? (Yes) I was still committing adultery on paper if nothing else. Was it understandable (Yes) We were done.
> 
> I could have chosen to be a better man and wait but I was just done. I was wrong but honestly no one could blame me unless they are just an angry bitter woman like you see on this forum sometimes.
> 
> Some people here have no idea what infidelity does to other people but love to sit and judge.
> 
> In fact your whole analogy was asinine as I said the deeds were wrong and I also said that it doesn't mean that the WS is awful and BS is great. I don't like to argue for the sake of arguing and nothing you described contradicted anything I said.



some good points here for sure and I am glad you have moved on and been successful after taking a serious shot like you did.

I agree that some here on TAM will take a story and manipulate things to produce a certain message (though I know Matt isn't one who does that despite my disagreeing with his analogy).

The truth sets people free. I just saw Kingwood starting to absorb some self inflicted wounds that he didn't deserve and threw the BS flag on it. 

I agree with you Moving Ahead. 

And I like everyone here wishes Kingwood the best but just am hopeful he proceeds with caution.

Now back to my snow blower, 8 inches and ice. Not good


----------



## MattMatt

wmn1 said:


> Very thoughtful post Matt and you make a few good points but I disagree with the overall message and I will tell you why.
> 
> I will do this through analogies though I would like to make one point first. While Kingwood seems to be starting a trend of self blame, I don't see anywhere in any of his threads where he did anything to cause his wife to be depraved enough to do what she did (notice I say depraved for past actions, not her current state of mind). So I feel we are making assumptions that Kingwood did something to cause her to commit an act that is about as destructive to any relationship that one can do. That's where this thread is starting to reach, the opinions that ('Kev's wife is a great woman and a great woman wouldn't do that unless he did something so mean and cruel that it forced her into the affair') and I find that to be BS because we have nothing to the contrary to suggest he did anything wrong and I stand by my point that even if he did, the affair was wrong.
> 
> I went to a hockey game yesterday. One of my buddies was there. His wife took a day off of work and he worked 17 hours. He came home exhausted. All she was supposed to do was take a bag of salt and throw it on the driveway. She didn't do this, he slipped and fell. He got hurt. He came inside and was frustrated but bit his lip and said nothing but she forced the issue and called him clumsy for falling. He snapped back "the only thing I needed you to do was salt our small driveway, a 10 minute job and you couldn't do that ?". She blew up at him and wouldn't speak to him for 48 hours. #1) He did nothing wrong #2) He's not perfect but he is the innocent one in this case #3) She's not perfect and is the guilty one in this case #4) She could have apologized and said "Damn, I forgot to put the salt down and I am sorry You slipped. I will make amends", instead she went into 'nasty' mode and shut him out for 48 hours over something that was entirely his fault. Now she is starting to apologize after causing him more unnecessary pain than he deserved.
> 
> In relation to Kingwood's thread, in comparison to my story above #1) Is the same, there is nothing to suggest he did anything wrong. yes, he pressed her for success which is not wrong and she didn't say 'back down, I don't want this' and him not having osmosis or telepathy, couldn't read her mind and shouldn't be expected to and there's nothing wrong with supporting someone's success. So he expected her to be successful and to be loyal, just like my friend expected his wife to enjoy a deserved day off but take 10 minutes to throw salt on the driveway. he shouldn't be expected to sit at his desk at 1 P.M. while busy at work and say "my brain is telling me that there is a 10% chance that she is not salting the driveway so I will assume she's not and start badgering her to do it". So Kingwood's wife cheated even though there is no evidence to suggest he did anything wrong. Even if he did, cheating is not the answer. It is an independent and greedy event that is damaging to all involved. My friend's wife didn't talk to him for 48 hours even though he didn't do anything wrong, she did.
> 
> So Kingwood's wife was wrong for not communicating with him, allowing herself to fall apart as a person without reaching out to the guy who vowed to help her always, cheated on him in a greedy, nasty affair while this guy was off (I believe risking his life for our country) somewhere else oblivious to the fact that she is stepping out on him and all some on here can do is say "Hey Kev, there must have been something you did to get someone to destroy your life that way" without any evidence of such things.
> 
> This "let's assign blame to everyone" crowd (and NO MATT, I don't put you in that group BTW),whether on this board or in Kingwood's personal life now has him making excuses for his wife's behavior and self blaming for really insane things.
> 
> In relation to my point 4 above, we are all expected to honor our vows and moral standards. Any time we step out of what we are expected to do and cause damage, that is on that individual and that individual only. I came home the other day and my wife was angry because she spilled water on the floor while making dinner. I didn't see this and came up the stirs and asked her what she was making. She got angry. To myself, I said "ok whatever, I will give her a minute to calm down but asked her if she needed any help first". I didn't go into the kitchen, take another pot or two of water and dump it on the ground. I Didn't go upstairs and pout for 24 hours because she snapped at me, and I didn't go into the kitchen and get in her face and yell back. I also didn't go upstairs and say "man, she must be yelling at me because I forgot to put the garbage out for pickup three days ago".
> 
> We all know that noone is perfect but this stuff about assigning blame can get $tupid as well. I saw my wife busting her arse after a tough day at work, I recognized that she needed help and maybe a few minutes of space and didn't force the issue but let her decid which was better for her and she apologized 15 minutes later and all was good. There was no self depraving, relationship destroying knee jerk reactions that I took to take a problem that was rectifiable and turn it into 'burning the house down' type catastrophe that Kingwood's WW did.
> 
> So this is my final point and regardless of what Kingwood thinks;
> 
> based on the info we were provided in this thread, I think we are starting to make assumptions (or some are) which are trying to mitigate what she did in an effort to support Kingwood's R with the ultimate victim being the truth. We are burying ,for the 'greater good' , what really occurred for the ultimate purpose of supporting reconciliation. However, some here can't bury the truth because the truth is ultimately what things really are. And while R is Kingwood's ultimate aim and we all support his objective there, that doesn't mean we have to mold or shift the truth to make it sound better more self gratifying to us here on TAM or at least to some
> 
> I take the case of Daniel. I disagreed when he allowed the EA in his case to justify what his WW wife did. I really pray for his R to be successful like I do with Kingwood. But during that thread, I never equated his actions with hers and said her reaction was on steroids. (Sorry for bringing this up Daniel). There were 500 things she could have done to get through to Daniel and would have been justified in many of them but she took the most destructive route and caused pain for everybody times 10. Kingwood's wife did the same and while I am not saying "hey everyone, let's stone these people to death", trying to find blame and mitigate what they did and pining things on the damaged parties, even if it doesn't exist (It did to some degree in Daniel's case) just to make everyone feel good is ignoring the truth and in my opinion disingenuous and I won't be on that train with people who will do that. I will not be part of helping turn people into self created cuckolds


You make some very fair points.

I am, I suppose, out of the loop here, somewhat. As when my wife had her affair she told me: "This isn't anything to do with us, what you or I have together. You haven't done or said anything to make me have this affair."

So, I knew that it wasn't my fault. But the damage was caused because deep down I knew I had caused her to have the affair. Well, if I'd have been more of a man, she'd never have to have had the affair, right? It was the difference between knowing something and feeling it, I suppose.

When I told my wife my thoughts on this she became upset, as she then realised a bit more about the extent of how hurt I had been by what she had done.

She naively thought that just because she had been honest to me that this would mean I would not be upset by her affair.

She was wrong, obviously. 

She is very, very bright but has very little street smarts.


----------



## wmn1

MattMatt said:


> You make some very fair points.
> 
> I am, I suppose, out of the loop here, somewhat. As when my wife had her affair she told me: "This isn't anything to do with us, what you or I have together. You haven't done or said anything to make me have this affair."
> 
> So, I knew that it wasn't my fault. But the damage was caused because deep down I knew I had caused her to have the affair. Well, if I'd have been more of a man, she'd never have to have had the affair, right? It was the difference between knowing something and feeling it, I suppose.
> 
> When I told my wife my thoughts on this she became upset, as she then realised a bit more about the extent of how hurt I had been by what she had done.
> 
> She naively thought that just because she had been honest to me that this would mean I would not be upset by her affair.
> 
> She was wrong, obviously.
> 
> She is very, very bright but has very little street smarts.





MattMatt said:


> You make some very fair points.
> 
> I am, I suppose, out of the loop here, somewhat. As when my wife had her affair she told me: "This isn't anything to do with us, what you or I have together. You haven't done or said anything to make me have this affair."
> 
> So, I knew that it wasn't my fault. But the damage was caused because deep down I knew I had caused her to have the affair. Well, if I'd have been more of a man, she'd never have to have had the affair, right? It was the difference between knowing something and feeling it, I suppose.
> 
> When I told my wife my thoughts on this she became upset, as she then realised a bit more about the extent of how hurt I had been by what she had done.
> 
> She naively thought that just because she had been honest to me that this would mean I would not be upset by her affair.
> 
> She was wrong, obviously.
> 
> She is very, very bright but has very little street smarts.


The affair was never your fault, Matt but you showed a lot of strength is your R and moving on. Being more of a man .. hmm.. I am sure you are a great guy so I doubt you are leass of a man . Keep in mind, sometimes there is a thin line between being alpha and being beta though many think it is a world apart. Stepping away from control and giving someone free reign but keeping them accountable can be seen by some as being beta but it isn't always that. Keeping a degree of control, which is good but can lead to other issues, is usually seen as alpha but sometimes in paranoid states, it can be someone acting as a beta. In my marriage, we are both alpha. But we have much freedom but are rigid on a few standards and it works for us. It keeps us honest. Keeps us stable but leads us to be more stubborn and argumentative at times. I don't know what type of system is the best for anybody and to each their own but in my mind, as long as you have the loyalty and fidelity and stability, I can work through all else. 

I am sure your wife is extremely intelligent and has learned the street smarts after what happened. I am sure she regrets stepping out on a great guy like you 

If you notice, and it is an other topic that splits hairs on TAM. Lies versus the act itself. Both are bad but everytime someone brings up the lies as being the worst thing, I always think about your horrible story and how there weren't lies but honesty and it was still horrible.

To me, it's the mid movies, the bloody mind movies. I am glad I've been gone from Ex for a long time now. 

We each have our own triggers I guess. 

I do wish the best for Kingwood. We helped chase him from a MC who tried to rugsweep but I don't want to see him start to do it himself as he will have to remain vigilant for a long time.

I do agree with you that now he has decided to R, banging her over the head with the A is no longer constructive and I think she learned her lesson and I think he has moved on from it since they both have a lot at stake now.

Keep up the good work, Matt


----------



## azteca1986

sidney2718 said:


> To claim that nothing a BS did could ever have contributed to the WS's infidelity is just silly. Sure, the WS didn't have to chose infidelity, but the BS didn't have to beat her up every night either.
> 
> Just sayin'...


Do you get beaten up less if you cheat? 

I'm failing to see the connection here.


----------



## sidney2718

MovingAhead said:


> I disagree. The in NOTHING that a BS can do to make his or her WS CHEAT. Now if a BS is not showing respect, love, attention etc... then the spouse who is at the receiving end has every right to leave, file for divorce etc... but cheating is the sole decision of the WS.


I know my view isn't popular, but it IS my view. I will say that divorce is not possible for a fair fraction of folks. There are TAM stories of how (usually women) a spouse is staying in a marriage simply because it is not financially possible to divorce.

But there is a more important thing here: Kev feels that some bits of the blame fall on him. That's HIS feeling. He's there and knows how the events he's thinking of transpired. He can "taste" them. We can't. I don't think it helps Kev reconcile to tell him he's wrong about his feelings.


----------



## MovingAhead

sidney2718 said:


> I know my view isn't popular, but it IS my view. I will say that divorce is not possible for a fair fraction of folks. There are TAM stories of how (usually women) a spouse is staying in a marriage simply because it is not financially possible to divorce.
> 
> But there is a more important thing here: Kev feels that some bits of the blame fall on him. That's HIS feeling. He's there and knows how the events he's thinking of transpired. He can "taste" them. We can't. I don't think it helps Kev reconcile to tell him he's wrong about his feelings.


Sidney, I don't blame you for your view. I didn't call you names. I said I disagree. I laid out my view. We can agree to disagree and I am fine with that.

I went through what Kev went through. I was not the perfect husband and I blamed myself. I understand my flaws and I worked hard to fix them. My EX had as many flaws as I did and you know what she is the one who cheated and as that happened she blamed me for everything. I accepted that I wasn't perfect but the hell if I was to blame for her cheating.

When your own son catches you cheating and you tell him not to tell... that is on you.

To Kev, understand you flaws. Work to improve them, but the decision to cheat was hers and you did NOT drive her to it. She could have communicated or filed for D. The idea that we accept such bad behavior and excuse it is deplorable. Accept your wrongs and work to correct them, that is all you can do. Don't make excuses, just make the flaws go away through your actions to the best of your ability.


----------



## MovingAhead

sidney2718 said:


> There are TAM stories of how (usually women) a spouse is staying in a marriage simply because it is not financially possible to divorce.


I don't agree with this to the extent that I believe people find it a crutch more than anything. Yes it would be financially difficult to leave and you will not have the standard of living you were used to but instead of making excuses, make a plan. Since I am filing chapter 7 I know what it means to be financially devastated by divorce. I would rather be divorced with my self respect and poor than be married and have poor self respect. That is my decision.


----------



## Forest

Is the takeaway from the recent turmoil that the best thing to heal a BS wounds is salt?


----------



## wmn1

MovingAhead said:


> Sidney, I don't blame you for your view. I didn't call you names. I said I disagree. I laid out my view. We can agree to disagree and I am fine with that.
> 
> I went through what Kev went through. I was not the perfect husband and I blamed myself. I understand my flaws and I worked hard to fix them. My EX had as many flaws as I did and you know what she is the one who cheated and as that happened she blamed me for everything. I accepted that I wasn't perfect but the hell if I was to blame for her cheating.
> 
> When your own son catches you cheating and you tell him not to tell... that is on you.
> 
> To Kev, understand you flaws. Work to improve them, but the decision to cheat was hers and you did NOT drive her to it. She could have communicated or filed for D. The idea that we accept such bad behavior and excuse it is deplorable. Accept your wrongs and work to correct them, that is all you can do. Don't make excuses, just make the flaws go away through your actions to the best of your ability.


:smthumbup:


----------



## thummper

Kev, your love for you lady shines out like a sunrise! It nearly brought tears to my eyes. I think you two have something very extra-special and it will never die. God bless. I hope you have a great, loving future filled with joy and wonderful memories.


----------



## Forest

sidney2718 said:


> To claim that nothing a BS did could ever have contributed to the WS's infidelity is just silly. Sure, the WS didn't have to chose infidelity, but the BS didn't have to beat her up every night either.
> 
> Just sayin'...


Layin' it off is pretty silly, too. And weak. Just sayin'.

Sheesh. Back to Jr. Hi.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Quote:
Originally Posted by sidney2718 View Post
To claim that nothing a BS did could ever have contributed to the WS's infidelity is just silly. Sure, the WS didn't have to chose infidelity, but the BS didn't have to beat her up every night either.

Just sayin'...




Forest said:


> Layin' it off is pretty silly, too. And weak. Just sayin'.
> 
> Sheesh. Back to Jr. Hi.


I was never around to mow the lawn, trim the hedges and clean out the gutters, so she burned down the house.

That makes perfect sense to me.


----------



## KingwoodKev

I get my daughter up for school this morning and she says "where's mom?" I said I drove her back to the apartment late last night. She frowns a little and says "I just figured she was back." I said that mom and I didn't want to do that until you were ok with it. She says "well obviously I'm ok with it or I would have screamed at both of you." (teenage daughters). She goes on to say "don't let her stay there alone and don't be stupid and sleep on the couches when she comes back. That's just dumb."

Needless to say I think she's going to be ok. What I don't want, however, is that my wife comes back to our home and our bed and then magically all is forgotten. No no no. At this point I do forgive her and I do love her and I do want to move forward but absolutely nothing is forgotten and any reminder of infidelity at all still triggers me. I recognize that and know we have a ways to go.


----------



## turnera

Tell that to your daughter. You want her mom back, but you want to make sure it's done the right way, so you will be taking it slow. You're doing great.


----------



## KingwoodKev

turnera said:


> Tell that to your daughter. You want her mom back, but you want to make sure it's done the right way, so you will be taking it slow. You're doing great.


I'm trying but it's scary as hell. We're both at very vulnerable emotional states. When I had no contact with her I could rage and outburst and cry and scream and get it out of my system without her having to be around it.

I really truly don't want to do that anymore but there are triggers everywhere. No point in trying to avoid them because they're everywhere.

I took my daughter to a nail salon on Saturday and two ladies (each probably mid 40's) getting their nails done were chatting. Yes, I was eavesdropping, sue me. Anyway one says "I told my husband he better get some little blue pills or I might need some extracurricular help." They both laughed at the naughty suggestion but I freaking fumed. I mean rage hit me hard. I had to go outside for a couple minutes and pace in front of the place to cool down. How can this f'ing B joke about screwing around on her husband?

Of course I don't know them at all and I'm sure it was just a joke but my point is triggers are everywhere. I don't want to blow up in front of my wife. I didn't tell my wife about this because I didn't want it to upset her. I know, I need to, I'll admit that before you guys jump on me.

I hate how this has changed me and wonder if I can ever get back to when infidelity was a subject to joke about. How much of this sh*t is permanent? Am I forever damaged goods? What about my daughter? She's not even old enough to have been in a serious relationship yet. Will this forever color how she sees those? I really hope not.


----------



## GusPolinski

KingwoodKev said:


> I'm trying but it's scary as hell. We're both at very vulnerable emotional states. When I had no contact with her I could rage and outburst and cry and scream and get it out of my system without her having to be around it.
> 
> I really truly don't want to do that anymore but there are triggers everywhere. No point in trying to avoid them because they're everywhere.
> 
> I took my daughter to a nail salon on Saturday and two ladies (each probably mid 40's) getting their nails done were chatting. Yes, I was eavesdropping, sue me. Anyway one says "I told my husband he better get some little blue pills or I might need some extracurricular help." They both laughed at the naughty suggestion but I freaking fumed. I mean rage hit me hard. I had to go outside for a couple minutes and pace in front of the place to cool down. How can this f'ing B joke about screwing around on her husband?
> 
> Of course I don't know them at all and I'm sure it was just a joke but my point is triggers are everywhere. I don't want to blow up in front of my wife. I didn't tell my wife about this because I didn't want it to upset her. I know, I need to, I'll admit that before you guys jump on me.
> 
> I hate how this has changed me and wonder if I can ever get back to when infidelity was a subject to joke about. How much of this sh*t is permanent? Am I forever damaged goods? What about my daughter? She's not even old enough to have been in a serious relationship yet. Will this forever color how she sees those? I really hope not.


It probably really was just a joke. Or at least I hope it was.

Still... I understand.


----------



## GusPolinski

KingwoodKev said:


> I get my daughter up for school this morning and she says "where's mom?" I said I drove her back to the apartment late last night. She frowns a little and says "I just figured she was back." I said that mom and I didn't want to do that until you were ok with it. She says "well obviously I'm ok with it or I would have screamed at both of you." (teenage daughters). She goes on to say "don't let her stay there alone and don't be stupid and sleep on the couches when she comes back. That's just dumb."
> 
> Needless to say I think she's going to be ok. What I don't want, however, is that my wife comes back to our home and our bed and then magically all is forgotten. No no no. At this point I do forgive her and I do love her and I do want to move forward but absolutely nothing is forgotten and any reminder of infidelity at all still triggers me. I recognize that and know we have a ways to go.


While clearly a bit naive, your daughter sounds *awesome*.

:smthumbup:


----------



## Yeswecan

KingwoodKev said:


> I'm trying but it's scary as hell. We're both at very vulnerable emotional states. When I had no contact with her I could rage and outburst and cry and scream and get it out of my system without her having to be around it.
> 
> I really truly don't want to do that anymore but there are triggers everywhere. No point in trying to avoid them because they're everywhere.
> 
> I took my daughter to a nail salon on Saturday and two ladies (each probably mid 40's) getting their nails done were chatting. Yes, I was eavesdropping, sue me. Anyway one says "I told my husband he better get some little blue pills or I might need some extracurricular help." They both laughed at the naughty suggestion but I freaking fumed. I mean rage hit me hard. I had to go outside for a couple minutes and pace in front of the place to cool down. How can this f'ing B joke about screwing around on her husband?
> 
> Of course I don't know them at all and I'm sure it was just a joke but my point is triggers are everywhere. I don't want to blow up in front of my wife. I didn't tell my wife about this because I didn't want it to upset her. I know, I need to, I'll admit that before you guys jump on me.
> 
> I hate how this has changed me and wonder if I can ever get back to when infidelity was a subject to joke about. How much of this sh*t is permanent? Am I forever damaged goods? What about my daughter? She's not even old enough to have been in a serious relationship yet. Will this forever color how she sees those? I really hope not.



There is truth in jest.

And to comment, if this woman did state this to her H she is simply in the wrong. Let's lay that on him while he is already stressing his failing hydraulics. There are some things we just can not control. 

But you are correct KWK... the very notion of infidelity is a constant in everyday life. Conversation, movies, books and magazines.


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## Openminded

Triggers can last decades for some -- like me. I never, during the 30 years I was in R, was comfortable with the subject of infidelity. Whether it was in movies or conversations or whatever -- I always hated that topic. 

You can have a different marriage going forward but you can't have the one that existed before she cheated. So you work hard on you and let her work hard on her and see how this plays out (hopefully, very well for all of you). 

As to how your daughter may view relationships, you can talk to her and your wife can also talk to her -- often -- and that will help. There is obviously no going back to your life as it once was before infidelity. You have to go forward.


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## KingwoodKev

Yeswecan said:


> But you are correct KWK... *the very notion of infidelity is a constant in everyday life.* Conversation, movies, books and magazines.


This was something I hadn't noticed before. Yes I see affairs in movies, TV, books, etc. but thought nothing of it at all. Now I see it every-f'ing-where. It's hard to watch a TV show that somebody isn't cheating on somebody else. Movies almost romanticize cheating like it's some wonderful emotional escape.

A movie I really liked when it first came out was Up In The Air with George Clooney. The fact that the woman he's seeing is cheating on her husband and small kids with him didn't mean squat to me. Now I think that character is a horrible HORRIBLE human being. She's even going away for weekends with Clooney leaving her kids. She already had a job that kept her on the road a lot but that wasn't good enough for her, she needed more time away to cheat. She told Clooney he was "an escape" for her. Being away most of the time wasn't enough of an escape?

I HATE that movie now and I hate how I've changed. I'm hyper-sensitive to infidelity. I fear that won't change. Maybe it shouldn't. Maybe I was asleep before but now I'm awake. I don't know. I'd love to talk about this with a good MC but we're still without one.


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## wmn1

good for your daughter, and good for you taking it slow and not forgetting. It would be a disservice if the wife came home and you rugswept the whole thing. Yes, move on and forgive, but don't forget. 

And yes, triggering is going to be part of the future. I don't blame you for getting angry at those women. I do too when I hear crap like that


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## happyman64

Kev

I think your moving forward is great. And your D is on board. Another hurdle cleared.

Keep moving at your own pace.

And yes triggers are everywhere.

Congratulations on controlling your temper and "walking" off your emotions.

Keep working on yourself.

You are doing great.

HM


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## Blossom Leigh

Yep between all the violence (abuse survivor), murder and infidelity triggers are ubiquitous. You will find yourself gravitating to the truly good stuff on TV, movies and music.


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## NoChoice

King,
I by no means mean to belittle your triggering but have you tried to put this into a different perspective. How does the loss of your previous life compare to the loss of the woman you love, forever. According to what I read in your posts, your wife was, on more than one occasion, very close to ending her existence. How would you have dealt with that? Would that have been better or worse than what your living now?.

Again, please know I mean no offense and I do understand your triggering and your rage. I merely suggest, as a method to control your wildly sporadic emotions, that you consider the alternative. I believe your anger stems from betrayal and the fact that something that was, is now lost forever, but was it really? If your marriage was indeed all you thought it was then this could not have happened. So then, what have you lost really? And yes, your wife did betray you and your girls and herself but she returned to right the wrong. Her love for you and her children literally saved her life. It could have gone the other way. Instead of centering your thoughts on your anger and your hurt try instead to focus your response on what you still have. Your daughters could have been mourning the loss of their mother in a tragic suicide but instead you can be a family again.

No one can say why things like this have to happen but they do and we must deal with them. It is up to us whether we allow them to forever change us for the bad or use them to grow and become better than we were before. I faced anger for a long time and it was consuming me until I finally realized that it was accomplishing nothing save to make me a miserable person and change me from who I was into this rageaholic at the drop of a hat.

King, I am not a religious person but all around the world there are people who daily reference a cross to which a man was nailed over 2000 years ago. It serves to remind people of the sacrifice that was made and the price that was exacted. Let this A be your cross in that you can never forget but you can move on and be thankful that although the old life was sacrificed, the new life can make that sacrifice worthwhile IF you can accept it, forgive it and allow it no more power over you.

Triggers are only triggers until they no longer affect you, at which time they become merely events. The power is yours, not theirs, take control and rise above them and never forget the loss you came so close to realizing. Good fortune and Godspeed.


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## KingwoodKev

NoChoice said:


> King,
> I by no means mean to belittle your triggering but have you tried to put this into a different perspective. How does the loss of your previous life compare to the loss of the woman you love, forever. According to what I read in your posts, your wife was, on more than one occasion, very close to ending her existence. How would you have dealt with that? Would that have been better or worse than what your living now?.
> 
> Again, please know I mean no offense and I do understand your triggering and your rage. I merely suggest, as a method to control your wildly sporadic emotions, that you consider the alternative. I believe your anger stems from betrayal and the fact that something that was, is now lost forever, but was it really? If your marriage was indeed all you thought it was then this could not have happened. So then, what have you lost really? And yes, your wife did betray you and your girls and herself but she returned to right the wrong. Her love for you and her children literally saved her life. It could have gone the other way. Instead of centering your thoughts on your anger and your hurt try instead to focus your response on what you still have. Your daughters could have been mourning the loss of their mother in a tragic suicide but instead you can be a family again.
> 
> No one can say why things like this have to happen but they do and we must deal with them. It is up to us whether we allow them to forever change us for the bad or use them to grow and become better than we were before. I faced anger for a long time and it was consuming me until I finally realized that it was accomplishing nothing save to make me a miserable person and change me from who I was into this rageaholic at the drop of a hat.
> 
> King, I am not a religious person but all around the world there are people who daily reference a cross to which a man was nailed over 2000 years ago. It serves to remind people of the sacrifice that was made and the price that was exacted. Let this A be your cross in that you can never forget but you can move on and be thankful that although the old life was sacrificed, the new life can make that sacrifice worthwhile IF you can accept it, forgive it and allow it no more power over you.
> 
> Triggers are only triggers until they no longer affect you, at which time they become merely events. The power is yours, not theirs, take control and rise above them and never forget the loss you came so close to realizing. Good fortune and Godspeed.



Thank you for this post. I really like it. I do appreciate that things could have turned out so much worse. Reading your wise words reminded me of another saying I've always liked: "I complained that I had no shoes until I met a man that had no feet."

Thanks again.


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## KingwoodKev

BTW, is it weird that my wife and I are sleeping on the couches in the living room? I don't feel ready, this minute, to go back to our marriage bed but I do want her here with us. My daughter thinks it's weird. She's sleeping right now on the couch. I'll crash on the loveseat. Maybe silly but it works for us where we are right now. The last thing I want to do is rush into something that actually causes a backslide. I've been told there are going to be backslides where we'll fight about this again and that thought does scare me. It tempts me to just swallow my pride and eat my anger so as not to backslide but I know that's probably not healthy. It's frustrating because I'm a problem solver. That's what I do for a living and I'm really good at it but I feel so out of my league with this. This sh*t is hard.


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## Openminded

R is a very hard road. And it's full of ups and downs and "two steps forward and one step back" stuff. Your life was ripped apart and now you're trying to put it back together. That usually takes years so don't try to figure everything out at once.


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## larry.gray

Have you replaced the bed? If it's the bed itself that will help some.


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## KingwoodKev

larry.gray said:


> Have you replaced the bed? If it's the bed itself that will help some.


There was no cheating in our house. That was one of my top polygraph questions for her. Still, it just doesn't feel right to sleep together yet. To me that would seem like a milestone saying R is complete and all is behind us and I definitely don't feel that way. I already think we're going to sell the house. March is the best month of the year to put a house on the market and our neighborhood has appreciated nicely. Living two houses away from OMW is not going to work. My wife's reputation is mud in this neighborhood (which is completely deserved). There are several new master planned communities going up within the same school district so my daughter could stay in the same school. I'm looking forward to house hunting or even house building because that is something the three of us can have a lot of fun doing and is a bonding activity.


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## GusPolinski

KingwoodKev said:


> There was no cheating in our house. That was one of my top polygraph questions for her. Still, it just doesn't feel right to sleep together yet. To me that would seem like a milestone saying R is complete and all is behind us and I definitely don't feel that way. I already think we're going to sell the house. March is the best month of the year to put a house on the market and our neighborhood has appreciated nicely. Living two houses away from OMW is not going to work. My wife's reputation is mud in this neighborhood (which is completely deserved). There are several new master planned communities going up within the same school district so my daughter could stay in the same school. I'm looking forward to house hunting or even house building because that is something the three of us can have a lot of fun doing and is a bonding activity.


Dude. Building a house is _f*cking *STRESSFUL*_.

Not quite the bonding activity that I'd choose while in such an early phase of reconciliation.


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## KingwoodKev

GusPolinski said:


> Dude. Building a house is _f*cking *STRESSFUL*_.
> 
> Not quite the bonding activity that I'd choose while in such an early phase of reconciliation.


I'll take on the stress of it. I usually do. They can have the fun picking out plans, elevations, upgrades/options, walls, cabinets, floors, etc. We had our current house just a few years ago and they both loved that part of it.


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## Zouz

KingwoodKev said:


> I'll take on the stress of it. I usually do. They can have the fun picking out plans, elevations, upgrades/options, walls, cabinets, floors, etc. We had our current house just a few years ago and they both loved that part of it.


I advise you to rent for short period until your R is in a mature status , because believe me this will bring a lot of disputable items and rework ; you think that you can handle it but since you are now still in a sensitive status , you will find both of every single item a dispute by itself .


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## Suspecting2014

KingwoodKev said:


> I'll take on the stress of it. I usually do. They can have the fun picking out plans, elevations, upgrades/options, walls, cabinets, floors, etc. We had our current house just a few years ago and they both loved that part of it.


Sorry for going over the same subject but I would like to ask how your daughter feels about moving to a new house.

The thing is that, as you pointed out, when you do something your are110% in. it, but as you pointed out as well, you realized that sometimes you have put the same pressure over your children and wife.

You are moving real fast and doing a great job about your R but IMO your daughter needs to R with your wife on her own time.

You should ask her how she feels about moving to a new neighbour and why you need to do it.

IMO you should ask her opinion about where she would like to live. Making her active on choosing the new house she will feel part of it otherwise she may feel that your wife is tearing her life again.

Good luck


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## Blossom Leigh

It is WELL known in the finance world that new construction elevates divorce risk. If you need to leave quickly, go to an apartment. If you need a project, make it your own body or mind.


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## drifting on

KingwoodKev

After my WW had her affair I have started back with my hobby of building furniture. This has always been a thrill for me to make furniture for people. For my sister I built her a changing table and two cradles. I've made tables and other furniture for friends and family and currently I'm trying to build a tractor and trailer big rig bunk beds for my boys. Although I don't know you very well, actually only by what you have shared here, but a home is stressful to build. I don't know your background enough to say to think this over as you may be a carpenter, electrician or in a similar field. I only know that reconciliation has been extremely difficult for me and when building furniture I have made very simple mistakes. A mistake that I normally wouldn't make. 

I guess I'm just saying to think this through and not overwhelm yourself that your reconciliation suffers from the stress. You know yourself best, you know what you can handle or couldn't. Happy to hear you reconciliation seems to be going well. Best of luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KingwoodKev

drifting on said:


> KingwoodKev
> 
> After my WW had her affair I have started back with my hobby of building furniture. This has always been a thrill for me to make furniture for people. For my sister I built her a changing table and two cradles. I've made tables and other furniture for friends and family and currently I'm trying to build a tractor and trailer big rig bunk beds for my boys. Although I don't know you very well, actually only by what you have shared here, but a home is stressful to build. I don't know your background enough to say to think this over as you may be a carpenter, electrician or in a similar field. I only know that reconciliation has been extremely difficult for me and when building furniture I have made very simple mistakes. A mistake that I normally wouldn't make.
> 
> I guess I'm just saying to think this through and not overwhelm yourself that your reconciliation suffers from the stress. You know yourself best, you know what you can handle or couldn't. Happy to hear you reconciliation seems to be going well. Best of luck.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We had our current house built (by a builder of course) and it was a blast. My wife and daughter loved going to the design center to pick everything out. If there were any issues to be hammered out then I was called in and I did battle with the builder and construction manager.

Whatever we decide, I don't think staying in our current house will work. My wife basically has a virtual scarlet "A" on her now. All the neighbors know. Most were witness to dday and it was very ugly. None of them will communicate with my wife other than to give her really dirty looks. The OMW even tells new neighbors (subdivision still has new construction going on) about her ex and my wife. We just can't stay here.

We had such a blast having this house built I figured it would be fun to have another one built. I will consider everyone's warnings here.


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## vellocet

wmn1 said:


> I do think he's starting to delve further into the reasons for what she did when in reality, no reason should be acceptable IMO





MattMatt said:


> Careful. Your last sentence is lurching toward "do not forgive a cheater" territory.


No, its not. One can forgive a cheater, but not accept their "reasons" or "excuses" Forgiveness doesn't prevent the BS from calling bullsh*** when appropriate


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## SadSamIAm

KingwoodKev said:


> We had our current house built (by a builder of course) and it was a blast. My wife and daughter loved going to the design center to pick everything out. If there were any issues to be hammered out then I was called in and I did battle with the builder and construction manager.
> 
> Whatever we decide, I don't think staying in our current house will work. My wife basically has a virtual scarlet "A" on her now. All the neighbors know. Most were witness to dday and it was very ugly. None of them will communicate with my wife other than to give her really dirty looks. The OMW even tells new neighbors (subdivision still has new construction going on) about her ex and my wife. We just can't stay here.
> 
> We had such a blast having this house built I figured it would be fun to have another one built. I will consider everyone's warnings here.


My advice would be to do it on your own. Selling your house removes one item from your 'marital property' list. Don't buy another one together.

Own the new house by yourself. Your wife and daughter can help, but don't put your wife's name on the property. Stay separated/divorced (can't remember which) so she has no claim to the new property.

Hopefully your R will work, but there is a pretty good chance it won't.


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## wmn1

I agree, Vell.


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## wmn1

Get a reliable subcontractor, Kev, who can alleviate much of the headache. Good for you for moving. A fresh start (not in marriage but in life) can be good for you and the family. Again, I appreciate the respect you have for your neighbors and OMW. It shows you are not a greedy person. Some would stay and start a neighborhood war, a disastrous result. Kudos


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## drifting on

KingwoodKev

In your honest opinion, do you feel your wife and daughter will bond while building a house? If you say yes, I say do it. My reason is that your daughter is struggling with the relationship she has with her mother. I'm not saying your neighbors are doing this now, but if your wife moves back in how will your daughter feel knowing the neighbors are giving her dirty looks and shunning your wife. This could prove to be unhealthy for your daughter growing up with neighbors who don't sound very mature. Hopefully this has been hidden from your daughter but if your wife moves back in, for how long will it be hidden? If your wife and daughter are driving down the street and your daughter waves to a neighbor will the neighbor wave back or have a scowl in his/ her face? 

I understand your need to move and to keep this from harming your daughter more then it has already. Best of luck to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Whip Morgan

Kev,

Moving to a new home, whether already built or not, is a stressful time. Add that onto the stress of trying R...its alot of stuff all at once.

I understand the need to change. But I don't see how doing so immediately will benefit you, as it'll add more to your plate so soon after deciding to try R. I'd give it some time, first, to see where things are with your wife.


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## vellocet

If you must need a new residence, I'd suggest house hunting as opposed to building.

Just be your luck while building a house things go south, she cheats again, or you decide you just can't do recovery.


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## Wolfman1968

vellocet said:


> No, its not. One can forgive a cheater, but not accept their "reasons" or "excuses" Forgiveness doesn't prevent the BS from calling bullsh*** when appropriate


Very true.

And welcome back from your 5 minute major, Vellocet.


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## lordmayhem

How come he's banned again?


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## sidney2718

lordmayhem said:


> How come he's banned again?


For those just tuning in, Lordmayhem is talking about Kingwood Kev and NOT Vellocet.


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## vellocet

lordmayhem said:


> How come he's banned again?


I got a pretty good idea, but I'll keep it to myself.


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