# Is kissing cheating?



## X42 (Nov 9, 2011)

Hi all, and thanks in advance to any who respond.

Brief story. A few years ago, my wife told me in passing, in front of another one of her friends, that while out at a club with some friends, she made out with another woman. She doesn't think it's a big deal, and she still doesn't....mainly because it was with another woman. Yet she waited 3 years after the fact to tell me.

I told her I thought that was cheating as to me, being intimate with any other person beside your spouse is my definition of cheating. This other woman, who is married, had her husband there. This couple is involved in the swinger lifestyle. Due to my work schedule I was not able to go out with them...but I don't like that kind of lifestyle and don't like those people because they are obviously sexually loose so to speak.

After that incident and before she told me about it, she would still go out with them. She kept insisting it was a stupid drunken decision but that nothing more happened. I can't help but question that-a lot. If its just a kiss why wait to tell me? Why hang out with those people after you did something like that? Why still see them occasionally after you told me? Am I reading into this too far or did something more than kissing happen, but she tells me only a little bit so that some guilt is assuaged?

I asked her how she would feel if I made out with another girl and she said its not the same thing, because she didn't make out with another guy. I told her it absolutely was because I am not attracted to men...she still doesn't get it though.

This was also during a period of sexual intimacy problems...my night shift work schedule led us to lead almost separate lives.

When she would get ready to go out, whether with them or not, she would shave her legs, her va****, etc...which I also thought odd. She told me it was just part of her getting ready and that she always shaved everything whenever she shaved.

Since then, we are both in a much better place in our relationship. We've learned how to communicate openly and how to not hide our feelings. Weve come really far. But am I being irrational in thinking something more than a kiss happened, or are my fears grounded in reality that I don't want too see? 

Any input would be greatly appreciated, and I'll be glad to provide any more information.

Thanks.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Kissing, in cheatspeak, means they had sex. And yes, kissing is cheating. Unless she had prior permission from you to kiss other people.


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## X42 (Nov 9, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> Kissing, in cheatspeak, means they had sex. And yes, kissing is cheating. Unless she had prior permission from you to kiss other people.


That's what I think as well, but she swears on our marriage that they just kissed. I'm having a really hard time believing that but she is sticking to her guns- crying when I think that it was more than that, swearing she would never do anything to hurt me, etc...


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

No, you are not being paranoid. IMHO, I assume at a minimum that your wife was being very risque at these night clubs. I'm sorry, but if she had to shave the vag before going out, at an absolute minimum she was showing it off to someone. Whether it was flashing like Mardi Gras type behavior or whether she was getting action on the side, no doubt in my mind that she filled a sexual void while you were working the night shift. 

IMO, I'd work her hard to get the truth and I'd even strongly consider making her take a polygraph test about her GNOs. And yes, making out with someone of the same sex is cheating. Ask her if you having intercourse with another man is cheating in her book. That would be an interesting question for her to answer...


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

Definitely.

Unless you are doing the lean-in-and-two-cheeked-peck. 

Making out is full blown cheating. Making out IS sex. (well, if done properly it is.  )

Sounds like she is attention seeking at the club.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

*Is kissing cheating? *

Ask her if it's cheating if you kiss and make out with someone else.

There is your answer.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> *Is kissing cheating? *
> Ask her if it's cheating if you kiss and make out with someone else.
> There is your answer.


ask her if its cheating if you make out with another _guy_ at a club. 


just because it is another female does not make it OK.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Yes it is cheating.

However in your case, the fact that she shaved her privates before going out with swingers says to me there was much more than cheating going on.

Privates only need to behaved if they are going to be seen and used by someone, so I think you've been told only a tiny part of the puzzle.

I'll hazard a guess that a big source of you problems back then was her hooking up with someone else, either theses swingers or someone else, and that any improvements you have had are either from that ending, or her getting better at compartmentalizing it.


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## X42 (Nov 9, 2011)

anotherguy said:


> Definitely.
> 
> Unless you are doing the lean-in-and-two-cheeked-peck.
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

X42 said:


> That's what I think as well, but she swears on our marriage that they just kissed. I'm having a really hard time believing that but she is sticking to her guns- crying when I think that it was more than that, swearing she would never do anything to hurt me, etc...


All cheaters swear when lying 

The OW in my case swore on her four children. 

My husband swore on the his own life. 

Kiss is cheat speak for full sex. 

Ask her to do a poly.

Also cheating is usually ANY activity that you would not do in front of your spouse because you know they would not like it. 

Kissing, hugging, even just meeting privately for lunches and intimate conversations is cheating as is buying gifts for someone without telling your spouse.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> *Is kissing cheating? *
> 
> Ask her if it's cheating if you kiss and make out with someone else.
> 
> There is your answer.


Yes. Good approach. 

When the Marriage counselor asked my cheating spouse if it would be okay with him if I had an affair with another man, he literally jumped out of his chair and yelled "NO".

Cheaters hate to be cheated on.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

I would say kissing depends on the customs and the person. 

But in this situation, it is cheating. 



X42 said:


> That's what I think as well, but she swears on our marriage that they just kissed. I'm having a really hard time believing that but she is sticking to her guns- crying when I think that it was more than that, swearing she would never do anything to hurt me, etc...


If she swears she would never do anything to hurt you, why did she kiss someone else, then wait 3 years to tell you? 

Sounds like someone is still in that WS fog to me...


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## underwater2010 (Jun 27, 2012)

Kissing anyone other than your husband/wife, kids and family members is cheating. Except where society deems it okay to peck the check in greeting. It does not matter the sex of the person.

What bothers me more is that she was shaving her vag before going out. The only time I shave like that is when I am looking for action from my husband.


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## mrstj4sho88 (Sep 5, 2012)

Answer: yes it is cheating


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Shaving the privates a BIG red flag sorry.


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## Tony55 (Jun 8, 2012)

Confess to your wife that you feel embarrassed by telling her this, but you need to mention it in order to move on. Tell her one night you and a buddy and his girlfriend were hanging out watching tv and, at his girlfriends urging, you and your buddy made out. Tell her you were just experimenting (make the story believable).

*Now, stick to that story, be convincing, and sit back to watch the fireworks.*


_(special note: If there are no fireworks, and your wife finds the story compelling, dump her)_


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

Going out to clubs with out you is a big red flag.

Making out with a "swinger" wife while the "swinger" husband looks on was an invitation to join them. Your wife participated. Why hide it for three years if there is nothing more to it?

The shaving in prep for going out means she expected that area of her body to be touched or at least "inspected".

Are you still in contact with this other couple? If so you might want to call them and tell them your wife, in a fit of guilt confessed all and want to see if they can confirm what she is telling you.

Like "She said sex was only 2 or 3 times and it was only with "swinger" wife while "swinger" husband watched - is this true?"

If they say yes - then it was multiple times with both of them involved.

In my experience, when a cheater confesses after this long of a time, then they fear someone is about to "out" them and they are trying to minimize what actually happened.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

OP, think back to when this time was going on. If you were ever home during anytime when your wife went to the clubs, did she ever make a b-line to the bathroom to jump in the shower right away? Edit: Did she jump into the shower when she returned from the club. Forgot to add that part.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

She is lying to you. Demand to see her phone and look through her texts, look through her email, etc. If she refuses there's your answer. If you find proof, what are you going to do?

You can also put a keylogger on her computer and not tell her to see what else she's lying about.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> She is lying to you. Demand to see her phone and look through her texts, look through her email, etc. If she refuses there's your answer. If you find proof, what are you going to do?
> 
> You can also put a keylogger on her computer and not tell her to see what else she's lying about.


OP said it was 3 years ago. That evidence is gone, but it doesn't mean that she isn't still doing this as of today with other people though...


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Kissing is a unique form of emotional intimacy, therefore, if done outside the context of a committed marriage or relationship~ it is definitely construed to be an act of "cheating!"


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

X42 said:


> Why still see them occasionally after you told me? Am I reading into this too far or did something more than kissing happen


 She still sees them occasionally even after she told you because she does not respect you or the normal boundaries of marraige. The fact that she keeps a swinging couple as her friends tells me that she agrees in part with their values. The reality is that they are openly trying, and may have succeed, in recruiting her for a threesome. And yes kissing is cheating, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. If she does not acknowledge this then she is ready to cheat again, but this time she will remember not to tell you.

First, you must demand that she go full no contact with this couple. You must be willing to end the marraige to enforce this and let her know this. If you back down then she will feel free to cheat with them or someone else going forward. Second, you must discuss and establish marital boundaries. If she does not agree to this, again you must be willing to end the marraige.

As painful as it is to end your marraige, it will be even more painful to invest more time into this marraige only to have it end when she cheats on you further. Based on what you have said, she has already cheated on you and does not feel guilty about it. She told you now just to see what you would do about it. If you do not take a meaningful stand with real consequences, she will see this as a green light to cheat even more. Sorry that you are here. You have been dealt a bad hand and must deal with it. Good luck. Man up and be strong.


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

Yes its cheating. But if things have been good for the past 3 years maybe stop torturing yourself. Be firm with her that you don't want that couple in her life anymore
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Falene (Dec 31, 2011)

X42 said:


> That's what I think as well, but she swears on our marriage that they just kissed. I'm having a really hard time believing that but she is sticking to her guns*- crying when I think that it was more than that, swearing she would never do anything to hurt me, etc...*


This may be your first non-evidence proof she did more. 



Sara8 said:


> Ask her to do a poly.


Wise stuff right there. Tell your wife you made appointments for each of you to have a poly as you must put your mind at rest. Let her know this is her chance to ask you anything you want but your college days are off limits (keep it friendly and silly). Tel her that after you know for sure she is telling the truth you are going to make it up to her by taking her to lunch anywhere she wants. 

I bet you that you would have to drag her to the car and duct tape her in to get her to go. 



tom67 said:


> Shaving the privates a BIG red flag sorry.


Well, I do agree with that unless she always does this and has always done this. Is that the case X42?


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## X42 (Nov 9, 2011)

the funny thing is I'm a cop. I'm skeptical by nature and not trusting people on their word is part of my job. It is hard for me to come to terms with the idea that she went all the way, so to speak. I want to believe her, but I can't. My home and wife are supposed to be my safeplace away from the stresses of the stuff I deal with. Sounds like the consensus is something more happened. And that sucks.

I guess the worst part was seeing this couple occasionally after the fact. I felt utterly embarrassed that I was the fool that didn't know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## X42 (Nov 9, 2011)

off and on, falene, yes. But generally she always used to shave when going out. I also feel like the husband of the OWis a control freak. He has a very strong personality and could sell ice to eskimos, so to speak. I don't doubt that he has at least tried to beach the subject with her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kallan Pavithran (Jan 17, 2012)

Ask her for a polygraph.

How will you extract truth from persons who commit crimes as a police officer? Use the same tricks and techniques.

Any way she cheated you either with this swingers or with some other men


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

X42 said:


> the funny thing is I'm a cop. I'm skeptical by nature and not trusting people on their word is part of my job. It is hard for me to come to terms with the idea that she went all the way, so to speak. I want to believe her, but I can't. My home and wife are supposed to be my safeplace away from the stresses of the stuff I deal with. Sounds like the consensus is something more happened. And that sucks.
> 
> I guess the worst part was seeing this couple occasionally after the fact. I felt utterly embarrassed that I was the fool that didn't know.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Please don't be embarrassed. You did nothing wrong. They all did. 

You were simply a trusting loyal spouse. 

You are the GOOD guy, not the villain.

Cut yourself a break.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

As you are having trouble getting past this I think a polygraph is in order probably just the threat of one will do the trick.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

If it was me I would lay low and start investigating my wife. You diserve the truth and have the right to protect your self.

Why wait another three years to find out she has been cheating on you for six years.

Once you get the hard proof it gives you better levage in how you want to protect your marriage....if you still want to.


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## Kasler (Jul 20, 2012)

X42 said:


> That's what I think as well, but she swears on our marriage that they just kissed. I'm having a really hard time believing that but she is sticking to her guns- crying when I think that it was more than that, *swearing she would never do anything to hurt me*, etc...


I've seen people swear on their lives, god, children's lives, grandmother's graves, etc.

Then turns out they fvcked the whole neighborhood. :scratchhead:


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

If the guy is controlling and slick, then I'm sorry but that's a bad situation. She was drinking. Dressed to attract. Out dancing etc. getting worked up, and kissing and making out. In that situation making out means exploring how worked up you and other person can both get. It isn't a quick peck, it's much much more intense, and its purpose is to escalate things.

And if it happened even once, you know the other guy would have arranged for it to happen again and include him.

I'm sorry, but I really do think there is a lot your not being told. 

The suggestion to talk to the swinger wife, especially if you can do it in person, alone with her and then tell her your wife confessed to hooking up and sex with her and her husband, and that you want to her their side of things will help.

You should also have in place away to monitor your wife's communications with them ASAP, including a VAR in her car and a key longer on you pc.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Another way to cath her is forcing her to contact them (the couple) to conoct stories/damage control/callind them out their lies after any hint from your part to talk to them or after you disclose (fake) a recent confrontation with them. Of course you need to display before the snooping tools (keylogger, spyware at phone, VAR...).


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

The title of this thread is brilliant bait! LMAO. 

I ignored the thread a couple times when popping in today but just couldn't help myself. lol. well played.

i guess I dont have to bother saying it's one of the dumbest questions ever. lol.


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## OldWolf57 (Mar 20, 2012)

It may be hard to accept her swinging, but before you go any further, decide what you are going to do when you find out what we already know.

Normally I would agree with the guy and investigate. But you being a cop, you need to get to the truth NOW.
Being destracted by this while working, could get you are your partner hurt.

So a poly is in order.

Also since you mentioned the guy being a control freak, I would not put it pass him to have recorded it and blackmailed her to continue.
He maybe putting pressure on her now to startup again, thats maybe why she told you.
And doing it in front of a friend, could serve her two ways. 1. Know you wouldn't snap in front of a witness 2. Have a woman there in case it turned you on that she has played with.

But all tthat matters now, is for you to polygraph her so YOU will know the truth.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

X42 said:


> But am I being irrational in thinking something more than a kiss happened, or are my fears grounded in reality that I don't want too see?


You know. when I get that niggling feeling that something is wrong or that info I've been presented with is incomplete, it usually is.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Could you hire a friend on the force (off duty of course)one night follow her I,m sure you'll get an employee discount just a thought.


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## OldWolf57 (Mar 20, 2012)

If she told you this a few yrs ago, why are you here now ???


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## Falene (Dec 31, 2011)

OldWolf57 said:


> If she told you this a few yrs ago, why are you here now ???


You would think that it should have just disappeared by now especially since their relationship is getting better but that is not how the beast of infidelity, even suspected infidelity, works.

I am taking a guess, he can certainly answer for himself, but it has always bothered him and now that the relationship seems to be on the path they both want it to be on he cannot move forward without dealing with it.

Yet another example of how utterly far reaching infidelity is.

Is there anything to currently investigate? She is no longer seeing this couple, right? I did not get the impression that X42 has any concerns about something going on now.


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## donny64 (Apr 21, 2012)

To answer the question, to me, no, kissing is not cheating IF YOU'RE OK WITH IT. If you're not, and you clearly seem to not be, then yes, it is a form of cheating. 

I could care less if my W planted a kiss on another woman. But another man? Or to hide a kiss with a woman (or anything else with a woman) from me and not tell me about it? All holy hell would break loose. I wouldn't be threatened by her kissing or doing much of anything else with a woman, but I would be by the hiding of it or the lies. While it doesn't bother me, I have a right to the truth and knowing if a situation is getting out of control.

Having said that, it appears from your post this happened a few years ago and she's just now telling you about it? Apparently she now feels "safe" to do so because time has passed. But, as others have said, the shaving and prettying up the privates immediately preceeding her going out means one thing...she was making the area "presentable" for someone.

Since she kept this from you for so long, I'd hit her with the threat of a polygraph. I don't personally believe in their "accuracy", but the threat of one can bring about a lot of "curbside confessions" as you're getting ready to walk in to have it done.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

TheMonogamista said:


> From what you've written, it seems that you have been betrayed. And that hurts. I'm not discounting that. But, in my experience in life, betrayal is not one way. You said that it happened "during a period of sexual intimacy problems". If you honestly search yourself, I think you are likely to find that, in some way, you were also betraying her during that time as well. I know...this is probably a pretty unpopular thing to write...and it is much easier to draw a black and white picture of who was offended and who was the offender. Again, in my experience, it is not so simple and clear cut. And, in my experience, it doesn't even help to figure out who was right and who was wrong. Because these things are never so easy as that.
> I say forget about trying to figure that out. How is your marriage now? Is your communication deep and rich, and are you both sharing yourselves fully? It's not an easy route, but it is the most life-giving


Completey ignore this post. Wrong and useless.
You have a real issue here, you came to get insight, support and advice. Don't forget a thing. Keep reading and posting.


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## OldWolf57 (Mar 20, 2012)

Rug Sweeping 101= it will come back to your a88


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## OldWolf57 (Mar 20, 2012)

Amen A


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

X42 said:


> That's what I think as well, *but she swears on our marriage that they just kissed.* I'm having a really hard time believing that but she is sticking to her guns- crying when I think that it was more than that, swearing she would never do anything to hurt me, etc...


All cheaters lie, even when they swear they are not lying. It's just part of the territory.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

next time she shaves before going out, have sex with her unprotected. let the other person enjoy your fruits.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

TheMonogamista said:


> From what you've written, it seems that you have been betrayed. And that hurts. I'm not discounting that. But, in my experience in life, betrayal is not one way. You said that it happened "during a period of sexual intimacy problems". If you honestly search yourself, I think you are likely to find that, in some way, you were also betraying her during that time as well. I know...this is probably a pretty unpopular thing to write...and it is much easier to draw a black and white picture of who was offended and who was the offender. Again, in my experience, it is not so simple and clear cut. And, in my experience, it doesn't even help to figure out who was right and who was wrong. Because these things are never so easy as that.
> I say forget about trying to figure that out. How is your marriage now? Is your communication deep and rich, and are you both sharing yourselves fully? It's not an easy route, but it is the most life-giving


I can't help but wonder if this was posted by the OPs wife.

Only 1 post and it was on this new thread and it is saying the OP betrayed her, I guess by being faithful and not swinging?

It also indicates that if is the OP wife that she did in fact have a full on sexual relationship with these other people during that time.

If they are swingers, they well may have recruited her for whatever group they play in. 

Maybe you should be getting yourself an STD test too.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Good point Shaggy I missed that from monagamistsa yes std test asap.


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## Vanguard (Jul 27, 2011)

She's lying. 

She did more than kiss him. Even if all she did was make out, that's still cheating. 

If you want to let multiple guys stick their sausages in you, you should not be a married woman.

I'm really sorry man. She's cheating.


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## Vanguard (Jul 27, 2011)

TheMonogamista said:


> From what you've written, it seems that you have been betrayed. And that hurts. I'm not discounting that. But, in my experience in life, betrayal is not one way. You said that it happened "during a period of sexual intimacy problems". If you honestly search yourself, I think you are likely to find that, in some way, you were also betraying her during that time as well. I know...this is probably a pretty unpopular thing to write...and it is much easier to draw a black and white picture of who was offended and who was the offender. Again, in my experience, it is not so simple and clear cut. And, in my experience, it doesn't even help to figure out who was right and who was wrong. Because these things are never so easy as that.
> I say forget about trying to figure that out. How is your marriage now? Is your communication deep and rich, and are you both sharing yourselves fully? It's not an easy route, but it is the most life-giving


You're just making assertions, and unfounded ones. And then saying that you draw these conclusions based on your own experience. 

That's not sound philosophy. There is no excuse for cheating, ever. Ever. It doesn't matter what context you put it in because it is at its very core _dishonest_. It is a breaking of a promise and it is lying because you are essentially saying that you are a faithful spouse when you are in fact not. 

I'm going to assume that you're either the OP's wife undercover, or a person who is looking for redemption for your indiscretions. Redemption can be found but you will not find it in _trying to redefine what you have done_.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

talk about monagamista rationalizing oye!:scratchhead:


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

TheMonogamista said:


> From what you've written, it seems that you have been betrayed. And that hurts. I'm not discounting that. But, in my experience in life, betrayal is not one way. You said that it happened "during a period of sexual intimacy problems". If you honestly search yourself, I think you are likely to find that, in some way, you were also betraying her during that time as well. I know...this is probably a pretty unpopular thing to write...and it is much easier to draw a black and white picture of who was offended and who was the offender. Again, in my experience, it is not so simple and clear cut. And, in my experience, it doesn't even help to figure out who was right and who was wrong. Because these things are never so easy as that.
> I say forget about trying to figure that out. How is your marriage now? Is your communication deep and rich, and are you both sharing yourselves fully? It's not an easy route, but it is the most life-giving


 The other person cheating is not proof that you deserved it. In fact time and again studies show the opposite. 

Based on what you have said, you are either a cheater that has blame-shifted to your spouse, you are the cheated on that has allowed the cheater to blame-shift back on you, or you were cheated on and were such a bad spouse that you feel that you deserved it. If you were the later you are the exception and not the rule. Stop projecting on to the OP. Nothing the OP has said indicates otherwise.


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## X42 (Nov 9, 2011)

TheMonogamista said:


> From what you've written, it seems that you have been betrayed. And that hurts. I'm not discounting that. But, in my experience in life, betrayal is not one way. You said that it happened "during a period of sexual intimacy problems". If you honestly search yourself, I think you are likely to find that, in some way, you were also betraying her during that time as well. I know...this is probably a pretty unpopular thing to write...and it is much easier to draw a black and white picture of who was offended and who was the offender. Again, in my experience, it is not so simple and clear cut. And, in my experience, it doesn't even help to figure out who was right and who was wrong. Because these things are never so easy as that.
> I say forget about trying to figure that out. How is your marriage now? Is your communication deep and rich, and are you both sharing yourselves fully? It's not an easy route, but it is the most life-giving


While I appreciate your response, your assertions are not correct. I can say with a clean conscience and clear heart that although there were intimacy issues, I did anything that would have contributed to her kissing etc another person outside of our marriage. 

Does anyone think that it was just a drunk mistake or is this a sliver a truth for a bigger betrayal?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Do a polygraph just to make sure, if she gets defensive well I guess you have your answer.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

Of course it's cheating, regardless of the sex of the person your kissing. Kissing is a very intimate act!

_*Now here's something to think about:*_
I was reading the "Sex in Marriage" Board here at TAM and there was a discussion about MFM Threesomes. Almost all the men posting on that thread said that they forbid their wives/GFs from kissing the other guy while in the MFM Threesome. Kissing was a deal breaker and all the action had to stop. _*Go figure!*_ So based on this, kissing is more intimate than intercourse!


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## 67flh (Sep 26, 2011)

come om x, you already said this guys slick as hell and their in the
'lifestyle", plus your a darn cop...if ANYONE can read b.s it's cops...you know deep down more went on than kissing...


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Well, there is a _very slight_ chance she is telling the truth. However, unless you find out she's still at it, or get her to take a polygraph, or she confesses, you are never going to know one way or the other.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

X42 said:


> That's what I think as well, but she swears on our marriage that they just kissed. I'm having a really hard time believing that but she is sticking to her guns- crying when I think that it was more than that, *swearing she would never do anything to hurt me*, etc...


But she did do something to hurt you, didn't she?

Have you asked her why she told you? Seems a bit off, somehow... Why'd she do it after 3 years? Testing the water? Moulding her response to how you reacted?

If husband goes "OMG! How gross!" Then go 'boo hoo, oh, I am so sorry, honey!'

If husband goes: "Wow! That's sounds great! Tell me more about it!" Then go: 'Well, honey, that's wonderful! Let's swing with that couple!'

I might be totally off with this idea but three years? If it was only a kiss? Something (or someone?) made her tell you. Find out why.


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## X42 (Nov 9, 2011)

67flh said:


> come om x, you already said this guys slick as hell and their in the
> 'lifestyle", plus your a darn cop...if ANYONE can read b.s it's cops...you know deep down more went on than kissing...


True words. That doesn't mean it makes it easier to accept when its my wife I have to pull the bs meter out with though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

Remember to leave your Glock at home before confronting the swingers.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

There are no drunken mistakes in my opinion. There are choices.

She chose to go to the club or bar without you. (never ever a good choice for a married person).

She drank alcohol to excess (again a dumb choice for so many reason)

She chose to make out with another woman (probably a lot of sexually charged conversation proceeded this)

She made a series of bad/stupid choices and may have continued to make even more horrendous choices once that make out session knocked down all sorts of barriers that should have been in place.

But a drunken mistake?? No.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

TDSC60 said:


> There are no drunken mistakes in my opinion. There are choices.
> 
> She chose to go to the club or bar without you. (never ever a good choice for a married person).
> 
> ...


Actually, there is a situation when a drunken mistake is possible. When someone is drunk 24/7 they can do all sorts of crazy stuff. Was she drinking too much, then? To the point of having faulty reasoning?


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Does anyone think that it was just a drunk mistake or is this a sliver a truth for a bigger betrayal?


It could be. And you have to make sure that it was. You cannot rely on the cheater to confess the truth. You have to use your own means. Swingers around married couple are bad news. Any chance you can talk to this wife or H and confirm what happened ?


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## X42 (Nov 9, 2011)

No, she is not an excessive drinker. Only drinks when she goes out. She never ran to the shower or avoided me when she came in, but staying out till 5 or 6 in the morning was common. A couple times I would be getting home from my 12 hour shift and she would just be getting dropped off by them. So yes, the opportunity was there, I know that, and I know that something happened, I'm just not sure how far it went.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

warlock07 said:


> Does anyone think that it was just a drunk mistake or is this a sliver a truth for a bigger betrayal?
> 
> 
> It could be. And you have to make sure that it was. You cannot rely on the cheater to confess the truth. You have to use your own means. Swingers around married couple are bad news. Any chance you can talk to this wife or H and confirm what happened ?


This is possibly what happened:

"Honey, I'll get xxx drunk, you make a move on her, kiss her real good, then we'll get her on side for some swinging action."

Now, this could have developed in several ways:

1) It works, she gets hubby to swing
2) It doesn't work, as wife thinks flashing naughty bits and a kiss with another woman is one thing, but draws the line at anything else, like swinging/cheating.
3) "Whoo-hooo! I'm going to get me some cheating action!" 
4) "F**k! Honey, I just realised. Her husband is a cop! Cops often carry guns 24/7! Let's *NOT* get her to cheat on her husband!"

Now, we know 1 didn't happen, so which of the other three did?


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

X42 said:


> No, she is not an excessive drinker. Only drinks when she goes out. She never ran to the shower or avoided me when she came in, but staying out till 5 or 6 in the morning was common. A couple times I would be getting home from my 12 hour shift and she would just be getting dropped off by them. So yes, the opportunity was there, I know that, and I know that something happened, I'm just not sure how far it went.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


5 or 6 in the morning!!! Yeah, she was hooking up. Even the clubs would have been closed for hours - so where was she and what she doing. Are you sure she was even at clubs at all? Could she have instead been going to swinger parties as their unicorn?

Were there kids at home when she was out this late?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> Remember to leave your Glock at home before confronting the swingers.


But take THIS Glock with you! He'd have them confessing to anything and everything! Lady Gaga- Bad Romance Glockenspiel and Bassoon Cover by Gabe and Benji - YouTube


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I'm going to make a guess here - that there wasn't many times when she wanted to go out with that couple with you included ? Basically she kept that part of her life separate from you? nicely compartmentalized?

Honestly, the more you post here the more major red flags you're throwing out.

How was her attitude and behavior before/after these going outs? Was she excited/anxious before hand? Was she tired/distant afterward?

Was she drunk or high when she came home? 

What eventually caused her to stop going out to clubs with them until 5 or 6 am?


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## OldWolf57 (Mar 20, 2012)

But three yrs ago. Why now !!!


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## X42 (Nov 9, 2011)

After she told me they "kissed" she stopped going out with them for a while. She would go out with them occasionally after, but very rarely. She would usually be drunk when she came home.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

OldWolf57 said:


> But three yrs ago. Why now !!!


Maybe damage limitation?

Someone has, for whatever reason, said: "We are going to tell your husband about x, y, z unless you do such-and-such."

So, wife thinks: "I'll tell him first."


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## OldWolf57 (Mar 20, 2012)

Also you can forget talking to the scum she hung with. These crawlers have their replys scripted WAY before a husband or wife approach them.

By now I'm sure she has told them she told you. So they may have expected you 3yrs ago, but they still follow their script.

We have been getting a lot of cops here lately. Whats up with that ???


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

So you really have no idea if they went to a club or bar for a couple of hours then left. You have no idea if they actually went any where near a bar or club. 

They could have picked her up went out for a few drinks then back to their place or any other house for a swinger's party.

Wow. Tough situation. But dude, didn't you have any concerns when these people were dropping your wife off just as the sun was coming up? That didn't bother you enough to do a little detective work while it was going on?

It has stopped - right?


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

X42 said:


> After she told me they "kissed" she stopped going out with them for a while. She would go out with them occasionally after, but very rarely. She would usually be drunk when she came home.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OK. I'm confused.

She stopped going out with them for a while after the kiss?

Or she stopped going out with them for a while after she told you about the kiss?


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## BeenHurt (Sep 19, 2012)

My STBX told me at first that she kissed a girl...I believed her for a while, before all the rest came out, well before I found out is more precise.. She told me as a way of testing my reaction, and it served as a way of detracting from the 'truth' a way to tell me that something happened, covered the inconsistencies in her web of lies...

Be wary man, **** situation you're in.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 67flh (Sep 26, 2011)

x, you have to detach yourself from this and look at it as it's just another civilian on the streets....what would you do then?


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## OldWolf57 (Mar 20, 2012)

Did you never stop to think maybe she was fooling around ???

I know I'm kind of jaded and stunted in some areas, but even to me that wouldn't look right.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

You didn't answer my question -are you invited out with them? Or was it at best a token invite?


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

X42 said:


> After she told me they "kissed" she stopped going out with them for a while. She would go out with them occasionally after, but very rarely. She would usually be drunk when she came home.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why do you still allow this? Ask her not to go. And if she still goes, go with her.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

I'm late to the party, but I want to recap and comment. The high points have already been hit by everyone and I apologize for the redunancy, but maybe something can emerge when including an edited version of your post from last year. I apologize in advance for the brutality of what follows:



X42 said:


> ...I work the midnight shift, 0400-1600 hours Weds-Fri and every other Sat. ...I am loving, devoted, and provide for our family.Our problem stems from a serious lack of intimacy.
> 
> Approximately 3 years ago, my wife apparently went out one night for a "girls night out" and ended up kissing another woman at a strip club. She then waited two years before telling me (our first child was already born at this point). Being in my line of work, *I didn't, and still don't, believe that a "kiss" is all that transpired.*


You were, and are correct. Was hearing about this the first you'd heard of your wife's lesbian interests? So this was 4-7 years into the relationship. That's the prime female adultery time zone. Now, in light of today's post, your wife was not alone with her swinger GF was she? My guess is that swinger H was there, too. Or maybe he joined them later.



X42 said:


> She didn't think it was a big deal, and did not see it as a violation of our marriage vows, at least not the same way I view it. What bothered me the most was knowing that while I am off working to provide for us, she went and did that.


It should bother you, but the main bother is this:







What is the rest of the story below the surface? Especially so, considering the way you learned of this, i.e. not in a private conversation between you and your wife. She played it cool to gauge your reaction, it's a kind of sh!t test. IMHO, which has been known to be wrong sometimes, she'd been doing a lot more than kissing one girl, one time. Carrying on like a slvt wife right in front of you with no corrective response from you. After a while with you not addressing her sexually provocative behavior, her woman programming started messaging her limbic brain that you are not "strong enough to be [her] man," as the song goes. So, she consciously ups the ante by casually dropping the mildest incident in her activities as a one-off event. She does this in front of an audience, either because she fears your reaction, or she wishes to humiliate you or demonstrate her dominant position in front of her friend.



X42 said:


> I never really let it bother me that much-between work and our family my time is pretty well occupied.


Sh!t test: *FAIL*



X42 said:


> But I notice now more than ever that we are not being nearly as intimate as I would like. We have sex once a week occasionally, but more often than not it is every couple of weeks, and it feels like it is a duty more than a pleasure,


That's what happens when you fail too many sh!t tests. She has lost all sexual attraction for you. In this case, it's not just the **** tests. The mindblowing action she's getting with her friends gives her a much bigger PEA hit, releasing norepinephrine, dopamine, etc. GNO is sex crack to her.



X42 said:


> although she always climaxes.


Well, we already know she's a good actress.



X42 said:


> She is a stay at home mom, btw. She almost always denies my advances or makes up excuses. She tells me to be spontaneous, but if I draw up a bubble bath with candles and music, then it is only because I want to "get laid" according to her. Mind you, she says that semi-jokingly, but I can't help but feel the accusatory undertone.


She considers you to be low sexual value. I rate you a borderline Delta/Gamma on this hierarchy, which is pretty much even lower than the average American married chump. Your wife's behavior would seem to indicate that she would concur in this assessment.



X42 said:


> I hate being rejected. As a cop, I'm an Alpha male.












Is that so? I don't think so, and more importantly, neither does your wife.



X42 said:


> I don't need to dominate people or women or anything ridiculous like that, but I would be lying if I said that I hate having my sex drive crushed, and that the feeling of rejection is horrible.


That's very bad stuff indeed. Terrible in fact. But you have not accepted that it's going to be revealed as much, much worse than just not getting any.



X42 said:


> We've talked about this before, and she just doesn't get it.


She's getting plenty of it. Everytime she goes out with the "swingers" and from multiple people.



X42 said:


> Anytime I ask for a massage, she rolls her eyes, sighs, and just maybe will begrudgingly rub my shoulders for five minutes, but asking every minute if that is enough. She loves it when I give her random massages all the time, though. According to her, it's always the wrong time- too tired, too late etc. I don't think she understands just how hurtful it is to ask for something as a physical touch (in an asexual manner) and to get rejected or have it appear to be like I am asking a huge favor.


Well, you've been working hard to keep her self-centered and entitled. From her viewpoint this is great.



X42 said:


> There is no surprises. No running outside to give me a hug and kiss if I am on my way home for a dinner break. Only the occasional "have a safe night". I can't remember the last time that I thought to myself that I was the one she wanted. It sucks to be the pursuer all of the time.


You can't compete with friends in her alternative sex life.



X42 said:


> I also know for a while that I was overweight- nothing crazy, but I was carrying some extra luggage around the middle. In the past 5 months, I dropped 50 pounds and got absolutely ripped (I am not bragging, I swear) from 6'2 250 to 200. I am in better shape now than when I was 18.


This is very, very good. Are you still ripped? While having a good body is a fundamental requirement for a male reestablishing his wife's attraction for himself, it's simply not enough by itself to right the ship.



X42 said:


> And it shows- the amount of women that hit on me is ridiculous ( I mean that in the least conceited sounding way possible, but am trying to provide a frame of refernce). In other words, I know I look good now-I look great- and she tells me that, but the huge surge in intimacy I expected never happened.


Does your wife see these other women hitting on you? If she doesn't see it, it never happened. Even then, it has no impact unless she truly believes she can be replaced in 5 minutes and she has to believe you would actually replace her. 



X42 said:


> She tells me that for half the week she feels like a single mother- and I agree- but it is so hard to hear. If I could go to days to make her happy and get off the night shift I would, although nights is where the majority of the code calls happen. I hate that she feels that way, and I think she resents me for it. On my days off, I am usually stuck with a long list of things to do, and for the most part I don't mind, nor complain, and I do what I can. But if I just sit around for a few hours and read, watch TV, etc, then it really sets her off. I get the typical "I have to do everything myself" response. Better yet, if I screw something up, she has no problem laying into to about it, even though she knows I never lay into her in a demeaning manner.


You're a sucker for punishment, man. You need to get it together. Go to Amazon or Hulu and download a book called "Married Man Sex Life Primer." Also get the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Glover. Both these books explain how you got to where you are and how to get out of it. I'm not sure your wife will be making the trip with you, though.



X42 said:


> Yes, I have told her a couple of times that if she is that unhappy, there's the door, but I don't think I was really serious, and she knows it. Now, however, I think I have reached my boiling point.


Not yet, you haven't. It's a year later and you're still with her. Those two books above can help you fix that.




X42 said:


> I am just so sick of the lack of physicallity our relationship has. Does it make me shallow for wanting sex more regularly? I don't know. Even when we talk about having sex "later in the day" or something, it's likely to never transpire. She refuses to make time in the day for intimacy.


She is sexually repelled by you. You're way too delta/gamma.

Back up to date with the current sitch:


X42 said:


> Brief story. A few years ago, my wife told me in passing, in front of another one of her friends, that while out at a club with some friends, she made out with another woman. She doesn't think it's a big deal, and she still doesn't....mainly because it was with another woman. Yet she waited 3 years after the fact to tell me.


See explanation above. There was more than this, you realize. And we've covered why she revealed this to you in front of her friend. Was this particular friend with your wife on any of her adventures with the swingers?



X42 said:


> I told her I thought that was cheating as to me, being intimate with any other person beside your spouse is my definition of cheating. This other woman, who is married, had her husband there.


Okay, so that answers my previous question, the husband was there. Was he the one taking the pictures?



X42 said:


> *This couple is involved in the swinger lifestyle.*















X42 said:


> Due to my work schedule I was not able to go out with them...but I don't like that kind of lifestyle and don't like those people because they are obviously sexually loose so to speak.


So why do associate with these people? Do you still associate with these people? Does your wife?

How do you know they're swingers? I ask, because you would be amazed at the type of people who are now or have been swingers. Usually, swingers do not reveal their "lifestyle" to vanillas, unless they consider them to be potential play partners. How did they reveal themselves? Did they reveal themselves to your first, or to you? Are they open about it with everyone they know? Yes, there are some who make no bones about their activities.

Let me put it to you like this:
If you have some bad punk kids living in your neighborhood and you know for a fact they like to steal firearms from unattended houses, would you invite them over to house-sit for you and leave your gun safe, filled with your collection of classic Thompson sub-machine guns, open for them? That's what you're doing when you let swingers hang out with your wife. And they're letting it all hang out, too.



X42 said:


> After that incident and before she told me about it, she would still go out with them.


How about after she told you?



X42 said:


> She kept insisting it was a stupid drunken decision but that nothing more happened. I can't help but question that-a lot. If its just a kiss why wait to tell me?


She didn't tell before, because it was an ongoing sexual adventure. She finally told, in front of her friend, either to ease her conscience by a partial confession, demonstrate her mastery of you to her friend, or as a sh!t test to confirm her opinion of you. Did she still socialize with these swingers after this admission?




X42 said:


> Why hang out with those people after you did something like that?


Mind blowing kinky group sex men and women.




X42 said:


> Why still see them occasionally after you told me?











Crap. You still let them get together. Dude.



X42 said:


> Am I reading into this too far or did something more than kissing happen, but she tells me only a little bit so that some guilt is assuaged?


No, you're not reading too much into it. You're not reading enough. And No, it wasn't guilt. It might have been that, as I mentioned above, but not if it's still an ongoing "relationship(s)." 



X42 said:


> I asked her how she would feel if I made out with another girl and she said its not the same thing, because she didn't make out with another guy.


Maybe not right at that moment. But later...



X42 said:


> This was also during a period of sexual intimacy problems...my night shift work schedule led us to lead almost separate lives.


Once your wife gets into the swing of things with another couple and their lifestyle friends it will tend to cut into your personal sex satisfaction levels.



X42 said:


> When she would get ready to go out, whether with them or not, she would shave her legs, her va****, etc...which I also thought odd. She told me it was just part of her getting ready and that she always shaved everything whenever she shaved.


I'm surprised she didn't ask you to pick out her panty and bra set. Those lower lips needed to be smooth for her "kissing" sexxions.



X42 said:


> Since then, we are both in a much better place in our relationship. We've learned how to communicate openly and how to not hide our feelings. Weve come really far. But am I being irrational in thinking something more than a kiss happened, or are my fears grounded in reality that I don't want too see?


No. I would say you have a legitimate, rational reason for some mild concern.



X42 said:


> I guess the worst part was seeing this couple occasionally after the fact. I felt utterly embarrassed that I was the fool that didn't know.


Two rules to live by: never allow a muzzle to traverse any part of your body and never let your wife hang out with people you know to be swingers. If they're swingers 90% of the time the wife is bi or will play bi for her H. Sheesh.



X42 said:


> off and on, falene, yes. But generally she always used to shave when going out. I also feel like the husband of the OWis a control freak. He has a very strong personality and could sell ice to eskimos, so to speak. I don't doubt that he has at least tried to beach the subject with her.


Breaching is exactly what he was doing. Along with a couple of his friends, most likely.



X42 said:


> No, she is not an excessive drinker. Only drinks when she goes out. She never ran to the shower or avoided me when she came in, but staying out till 5 or 6 in the morning was common. A couple times I would be getting home from my 12 hour shift and she would just be getting dropped off by them.


You're putting us on, bro. These people are still walking around and breathing air? You're still married to this woman?



X42 said:


> So yes, the opportunity was there, I know that, and I know that something happened, I'm just not sure how far it went.


Tell Mr. Swinger you'd like know what went on and maybe he'll show you some of the videos. Your wife won't like that, though. She doesn't want to do those things with you. That stuff is reserved for the Alphas and their trained b!tches who sniff out and retrieve their prey.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

I will have to say that Machiavelli is giving you the far end of absolute worst case scenario. The truth will be somewhere in the middle, between a kiss and her being involved in a polyamorous swinger life style. To be honest, the signs don't look good at all. You need to find truth on your own. 

Little curious about this part



> Brief story. A few years ago, my wife told me in passing, in front of another one of her friends, that while out at a club with some friends, she made out with another woman.


How did she come about telling you this ?


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## X42 (Nov 9, 2011)

It's not brutality if its brutally honest. To address a few of the points raised:

Yes, I am still in excellent physical condition. This was done more for the necessities of officer safety and command presence as well as for personal physical well being. Needless to say, it has provided a major confidence booster, and yes, my wife has seen the stares I get from other women. She will take my hand or make it a point to hug or kiss me when she sees this.

Although my actions at home can only be described as a weak male, it is due to the fact that for 12 hours a night I have to be the one I control, making split second decisions, fighting, driving fast, consciously putting myself in dangerous situations that most people would run from. It became easy to turn that off when I came home or to not be that way with friends or family or my wife. I needed to be that way so the job doesn't control me and take over my life. I needed to be able to come home and turn that off so that I could go back to a normal routine and get out of condition red/orange so to speak.

I'm not stupid, I know you're not inferring that, I know that by her revealing something like that in front of a friend it is a test. It's the same thing as telling your parents you did something wrong with a friend present. You hope the punishment might be mitigated because there is someone else present. And yes, it's easy to be non confrontational at home with her when my job is based on confrontation almost all night.

I made the mistake of assuming that she would not bend to temptation when it presented itself. I made the mistake of not asserting boundaries when this couple first entered our lives. I assumed that she could make a rational intelligent decision as to the quality of these people as I saw them. That's my error.

When I said that I never really let t bother me that much because of work, it's because I didn't have time-or the desire to make time I guess. I wake up at 1200, hit the gym at 1300-1430, go home shower and get ready for shift. That's been my routine. 

It was easy to let the lack of intimacy go by the wayside because I started filling that void with the flirtatious of other women who would hit on me at work. While I never pursued that angle, it was the ego boost I needed to deal with a sh!tty sex life.

I focused on work and work only. I stopped caring about our marriage because of the intimacy issues and we had a roommate relationship for a while.

And yes, my job demands skepticism of nearly everyone I come into contact with-anyone that knows cops know we say there are 3 sides to a story...yours, theirs, and the truth we have to dig out in the middle. It would have been easy to take that viewpoint when approaching my marriage but I made the decision not to. I needed to be able to trust my wife implicitly, because I didn't want to think that after all the nastiness I see, something nasty would happen in my own home. Blissfully ignorant I guess.

She does not see the couple in question anymore. I know this for a fact and ill leave it at that. She revealed to me that she was molested at an early age by her uncle for a period of two years. This came to light a few hours ago. He made her do horrible things. Her family swept it under the rug and she never got counseling. For it. This pedophile did this to her cousin too,but her cousin received counseling. He is dead now and there is no legal recourse against him obviously. She has since told me tonight that she has always viewed sex or sexual acts as a physical thing, and not an emotional or intimate attachment. This does explain, in my mind, why she could kiss, hook up with, whatever with another woman and not really see the problem with it. It does not justify her actions and it does not lay to rest my fears that something more occurred but it does provide some clarity, I think.

Shaggy- yes she always invited me out with them but I never went either because I was tired from work or because frankly, I don't like them.

To be perfectly honest, I don't even remember now how exactly she came about telling me she kissed her. I do know it was almost in passing and very nonchalant.

Thank you all for the replies and insight thus far I appreciate it.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

The being molested is another red flag - sorry, as is her detachment.

the question is what would you do if she admitted that she did swing with them. What if she was the third in a three way, or worse tried out their swinging group?

would you leave her ?


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## X42 (Nov 9, 2011)

Yes, I would. No choice on that front really, that crosses all personal and moral boundaries I have.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

X42 said:


> Yes, I would. No choice on that front really, that crosses all personal and moral boundaries I have.


Well, this is the important question.

Do you want to know the truth?


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

X42 said:


> No, she is not an excessive drinker. Only drinks when she goes out. She never ran to the shower or avoided me when she came in, but staying out till 5 or 6 in the morning was common. A couple times I would be getting home from my 12 hour shift and she would just be getting dropped off by them. So yes, the opportunity was there, I know that, and I know that something happened, I'm just not sure how far it went.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


5 or 6 in the morning??? :scratchhead:

This is so far from my reality, I cannot imagine, if you did not suspect anything then, from what viewpoint you could see this as 'normal'. 

Is your life style 'Miami Vice', you live life 'In the Fast Lane' or something?




> After she told me they "kissed" she stopped going out with them for a while. She would go out with them occasionally after, but very rarely. She would usually be drunk when she came home.


I guess she felt guilty, and wanted to stop the cheating. But when the urge became to hard to withstand, she needed to be drunk to forget about you and take part in the party.

I hope for you this is not the case. 

Use VAR's and keyloggers to monitor your wife for a month or so. If nothing happens, you can be at rest and that chance is worth some effort!


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## The Cro-Magnon (Sep 30, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> She considers you to be low sexual value. I rate you a borderline Delta/Gamma on this hierarchy, which is pretty much even lower than the average American married chump. Your wife's behavior would seem to indicate that she would concur in this assessment.
















Machiavelli said:


> This is very, very good. Are you still ripped? While having a good body is a fundamental requirement for a male reestablishing his wife's attraction for himself, it's simply not enough by itself to right the ship.


This. I am in very good physical condition. I have been hitting the gym all my life and take care of myself, and even though I am about to turn 40, people think I am in my mid twenties.

Does my frigid wife notice though? Nope. I learn now that I have merely trained her to have utterly zero respect for me, and thus she is repulsed by me, despite how good I look.






> No, you're not reading too much into it. You're not reading enough. And No, it wasn't guilt. It might have been that, as I mentioned above, but not if it's still an ongoing "relationship(s)."


Jeeez, I thought I was sad and in denial. It is amazing to learn there are males even more oblivious than myself.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

X42 said:


> Hi all, and thanks in advance to any who respond.
> 
> Brief story. A few years ago, my wife told me in passing, in front of another one of her friends, that while out at a club with some friends, she made out with another woman. She doesn't think it's a big deal, and she still doesn't....mainly because it was with another woman. Yet she waited 3 years after the fact to tell me.
> 
> ...


This has been bothering you for 5-6 years?

Circumstantial evidence:
1. Admitted to kissing a swinger woman
2. Went out with the swingers without you
3. Shaved her vag before going out with them
4. Swinger man was a snake-oil salesman, very forceful, could sell ice to eskimos
5. Came home really, really drunk
6. Came home at 5am-6am
7. You were living as roommates, no intimacy or sex, at the time

_"Did something more than kissing happen?"_

You already know the answer to that.

Write out the seven items above on an index card, add any others you haven't revealed yet to it, and at the bottom write, "Did something more than kissing happen?" Then give it to your wife.

Tell your wife that even if it was only "kissing," that it just is not believable, even if true, and that it has been bothering you all of these years, and that you would like her to take a polygraph.

You already know the answer to this question.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Will_Kane said:


> This has been bothering you for 5-6 years?
> 
> Circumstantial evidence:
> 1. Admitted to kissing a swinger woman
> ...


Hence my question. He hasn't had a powerful need to figure things out so far and seems pretty bloody diffident now.

It's like he's asking all the questions and recoiling from all the answers.

The Empress has no clothes...and she's shaved!


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

Your story reminds me of the old saying about the cobbler's kids not having any shoes. You're a detective and I suspect that you're pretty good at your job - BUT YOUR KIDS HAVE NO SHOES. You detective for everybody else but you don't detective for your household. Even Stevie Wonder could see what's going on.


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## OldWolf57 (Mar 20, 2012)

Again, why are you here ?? How can we help you if we don't understand what you want ?? Our opinions ??? 
Well Ok.

She view sex as separate from emotional attachment.
She hung with swinger.
She got drunk with said swingers.
She stayed out until sun up with said swingers.

Go file dude.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> Your story reminds me of the old saying about the cobbler's kids not having any shoes. You're a detective and I suspect that you're pretty good at your job - BUT YOUR KIDS HAVE NO SHOES. You detective for everybody else but you don't detective for your household. Even Stevie Wonder could see what's going on.


NOT a detective. Uniformed street cop.

X42, 12 hour shifts. What BS. I used to work for a federal agency that had 10-hour shifts, 4 days weekly, and I loved that (suit and tie). Much better than 8X5, but 12 hour shifts on the street? I've heard of this before, and it's still the dumbest thing I ever heard of. You need to look for another agency with 8-10 hour shifts; you're not biologically suited to 12 hours.

If patrol is taking so much out of you that you're mentally and physically incapable of riding herd on your harem of one, you need to get a new job or get rid of your wife. 

Career wise, do you have any goals of making detective? Do you have a bachelor's? Have you thought about the feds? You get much better pay and a hell of a lot more respect from the public when you pull out your badge/credentials. You end up socializing with a much higher class of civilian if you go to the "right" agency. You do lose the attention of the badge bunnies, though. 

Everybody on here knows that your wife crossed your boundaries. But in your wife's mind, she's already confessed to you and you had absolutely no problem with it. She was getting dropped off by them at 6AM right in front of you after her confession. To her, you are a wittol. And I have to agree.

I don't think you want the truth, but I would encourage you to seek it. Get her cranked up and start talking dirty. Tell her you've been thinking about her and the girl she, uh, "kissed." Ask her straight up what she liked most about the swinger parties she was attending with Mswinger and Fswinger and see where it goes. If you ask her when she's sexed up and really hot, her defenses will be down. Otherwise, just schedule the polygraph. Use somebody a few towns over and you won't have to worry about it getting around.

BTW, my own polys always showed deception on at least one question each and every time, and we had excellent polygraphers. We know they have limitations. But your wife doesn't know that.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Oh, yeah. Almost forgot: DNA the kids.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

Does he have kids? If so, I agree. DNA, paternity tests the kids.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

Mac, props to you for adding 'wittol' to my vocabulary.


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## Kallan Pavithran (Jan 17, 2012)

X42 said:


> Yes, I would. No choice on that front really, that crosses all personal and moral boundaries I have.


If i wish I can catch a Tiger but I will never WISH for that.


You are creating a lot of darkness by remaining your eyes shut, Its time for you to open your eyes and see the garbage you are living in, Its too dirty man. You cannot clean it,there is too much.

Dont be so passive in your life. Its a precious.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

I think she's trying to make you feel sorry for her. Why wait until now to tell you about the abuse? I'm a survivor too and that just smacks of her trying to look like a victim and distract you from what she really did.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

diwali123 said:


> I think she's trying to make you feel sorry for her. Why wait until now to tell you about the abuse? I'm a survivor too and that just smacks of her trying to look like a victim and distract you from what she really did.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have to agree here, people play the victim card for a number of things and they do so to justify their actions. And I do fear that it has gone past 'kissing'. But then again, she was drunk when she told you she made out with another woman. And drunks tell the truth most of the times. A polygraph will be your best solution I believe, if she doesn't agree, you can conclude the worst has happened and decide what to do next.


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## Kallan Pavithran (Jan 17, 2012)

diwali123 said:


> I think she's trying to make you feel sorry for her. Why wait until now to tell you about the abuse? I'm a survivor too and that just smacks of *her trying to look like a victim and distract you from what she really did.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## X42 (Nov 9, 2011)

Ok update on our situation. Things have still been going well between us. She has no sex drive, so she says, but has been taking an active interest in dealing.with that. she's stopped bc and got an IUD, she has staryed taking supps to increase her drive, etc. But here's where it gets tricky. She never hung iut with the couple in question again, but we would see them at the gym occasionally. The guy is a trainer and she decided to become a trainer as well...and work for him. She told me about this up front. I told her I was over the past and could handle her working for him. There has been no shadiness nor anything to give me pause, but I saw him at the gym last week and kinda internally snapped. Had to leave the gym because I was afraid I was going to let my anger get the best of me. 

I contacted her friend who was there...the one who saw the "kiss" and who she told me about the incident in front of. I asked her specifically what had transpired. Now, her version of events was slightly different. ..that the girl caressed her cheek, opened her mouth, and went in for a kiss.

I confronted my wife later that evening, told her I was having a helluva time believing her story and asked her to come clean once and for all. She still told me it was just a quick peck on the lips. I told her she was lying, that I had talked.with her friend and gotten a different version of events. She still denied what her friend told me, even though her friend had no.reason to lie. She again swore up.and down that nothing more.ever happened.

I just wish I could either get over this or get to the truth.

Yes, I know it's stupid that she is working for this guy. When I told her how I felt she got her phone out and began dialing him to quit on the spot. Ugh.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

X42 said:


> Ok update on our situation. Things have still been going well between us. She has no sex drive, so she says, but has been taking an active interest in dealing.with that. she's stopped bc and got an IUD, she has staryed taking supps to increase her drive, etc. But here's where it gets tricky. She never hung iut with the couple in question again, but we would see them at the gym occasionally. *The guy is a trainer and she decided to become a trainer as well...and work for him. She told me about this up front. I told her I was over the past and could handle her working for him*. There has been no shadiness nor anything to give me pause, but I saw him at the gym last week and kinda internally snapped. Had to leave the gym because I was afraid I was going to let my anger get the best of me.
> 
> I contacted her friend who was there...the one who saw the "kiss" and who she told me about the incident in front of. I asked her specifically what had transpired. Now, her version of events was slightly different. ..that the girl caressed her cheek, opened her mouth, and went in for a kiss.
> 
> ...


How much time passed between the two bolded sections?

As soon as she decided to work for this guy you should have shot the idea down.

It should never have occurred to her to work for him at all. It was a test that you failed.


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## X42 (Nov 9, 2011)

About 4 years since it happened and when she started working for him.


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## AlphaHalf (Aug 5, 2012)

Wow. So the very couple that has caused all trust issues for your marriage is now/was the coworker of your wife. My issue is why would YOU let this happen if she told you upfront considering what happened in the past????

You know your wife is lying to you about the kiss. Something is up. Have your wife take a lie detector test to determine what else she might be hiding. She kept the kiss secret for three years. What else could she have done, considering the nights she spent with them until 6am in the mourning. Come on man, Wake Up. 

Stop making excuses for her. Don't get distracted about her molestation and use it to cover up what she has possibly done. Cheating is Cheating. 

Even with having a traumatic childhood experience, your still accountable for you actions as an ADULT. You arrest people everyday because they break the law, regardless if they had a f#$Ked up childhood. 

Your wife committed herself to the vow of marriage with YOU. It's time you hold her accountable for her actions and get the truth, The whole truth, and Nothing but the Truth. Get a poly test for reassurance. She should be more then willing to EARN your trust.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

X42 said:


> Ok update on our situation. Things have still been going well between us. She has no sex drive, so she says, but has been taking an active interest in dealing.with that. she's stopped bc and got an IUD, she has staryed taking supps to increase her drive, etc.


Did a doctor prescribe the supplements? 
If not, I'd tell her "I am attending your next check up and I want to see the blood work showing hormonal issues that lead to problems with sex drive."


[email protected] Sorry, you can get all types of "remedies" that can possibly be used to fool a spouse.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

X42 said:


> About 4 years since it happened and when she started working for him.


I meant how long since she announced that she was working for him, you agreed, and then you said no. It's sounds like it was after the 'kiss' and more recently. 

If she knew that you were upset with the 'kiss', ( and some will believe that there was a lot more), why would she work with him?

And why would you be OK with that?

The fact that you agreed at first tells her that you are not upset with what happened ( what you only think happened).

An immediate NO was the appropriate response. Agreeing and then changing your mind shows weakness.


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## Jeffery (Oct 8, 2012)

how can a cop be so weak. I have always striven for a consensuses when dealing with people i am a peace maker. but never weak : Deal breaker my friend

ou know your wife is lying to you about the kiss. Something is up. Have your wife take a lie detector test to determine what else she might be hiding. She kept the kiss secret for three years. What else could she have done, considering the nights she spent with them until 6am in the mourning. Come on man, Wake Up.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Jeffery said:


> ...your wife is lying to you about the kiss. Something is up. Have your wife take a lie detector test to determine what else she might be hiding. She kept the kiss secret for three years. What else could she have done, *considering the nights she spent with them until 6am in the morning*.


It doesn't exactly take a renowned rocket scientist to theorize that she could have gotten herself a whole lot of "kissing" in with him, in that given span of time. 

And with a greater degree of probability, it's almost certain that she had both the time and the motivation for the "cranial" and the "pelvic" variety of kissing with him as well, with maybe time enough to spare for a short nap between sessions! 

Don't be a "dupe!" The burden of proof is greatly upon her to demonstrate that she is squeaky-clean! 

Just trust me on this one~ she can't exactly do that!


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

X42 said:


> I just wish I could either get over this or get to the truth.


Dude, stop thinking these two points are mutually exclusive; this is not an "either or" scenario.

Go read the posts and threads by some of the biggest Pro-Reconciliation and Anti-R posters. One point, that is common from both sides is that "getting over it" starts and ends with the truth.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

X42, why would you ever be OK with your wife working FOR the OM, knowing that you still have strong doubts about how much your wife and this man did together? Even if it was nothing more than a kiss, it's clear that your wife is attracted to the OM and probably vice versa. Your wife MUST quit this job and get away from the OM for good or your marriage will go down the drain eventually. Just my opinion, but this is not a good situation right now.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

X42 said:


> Ok update on our situation. Things have still been going well between us. She has no sex drive, *so she says,*


Actually, it's just no sex drive for you. You don't turn her on.



X42 said:


> but has been taking an active interest in dealing.with that. she's stopped bc and got an IUD, she has staryed taking supps to increase her drive, etc.


Exactly what supps? Except for PT141, you need a Doc's prescription for most of the things that are going to work.



X42 said:


> But here's where it gets tricky. She never hung iut with the couple in question again, but we would see them at the gym occasionally. The guy is a trainer and she decided to become a trainer as well...and work for him. She told me about this up front. *I told her I was over the past and could handle her working for him*.


Sh!t test fail. In fact, it's an epic sh!t test fail. Are these people bodybuilders in dianabol, winstrol, deca, sense?



X42 said:


> There has been no shadiness nor anything to give me pause,


Like you're going to know what they're doing in the mop closet or the shower or the head while they're at work. No wonder she doesn't want sex with you, she's already getting more than she can handle.



X42 said:


> but I saw him at the gym last week and kinda internally snapped. Had to leave the gym because I was afraid I was going to let my anger get the best of me.


But you didn't. As usual.



X42 said:


> I contacted her friend who was there...the one who saw the "kiss" and who she told me about the incident in front of. I asked her specifically what had transpired. Now, her version of events was slightly different. ..that the girl caressed her cheek, opened her mouth, and went in for a kiss.
> 
> I confronted my wife later that evening, told her I was having a helluva time believing her story and asked her to come clean once and for all. She still told me it was just a quick peck on the lips. I told her she was lying, that I had talked.with her friend and gotten a different version of events. She still denied what her friend told me, even though her friend had no.reason to lie. She again swore up.and down that nothing more.ever happened.
> 
> ...


Did she actually quit? 

What line of work was she in before she trained for him, a dancer?


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