# sexless marriage? - see what you are up against



## oldshirt

I stumbled across this thread on WebMD and thought it would give a good perspective on what is really going on in the minds of some of these people that no longer have any sexual desire for their spouses. 

I'll try to post a link but if it doesn't work, all you have to do is type "I hate sex - forum post" into any search engine and if this page doesn't pop up, countless others just like it will. 


If your spouse recoils and pulls away any time you try to touch/hold/hug/kiss or initiate with her; and if it has been many months or even years since she has had interactive sex with you - then there is a good chance this is what you are up against. 


She may say she just isn't in the mood or that you aren't helping enough around the house so she is tired. But read through the stories that these women are telling and you will see what you are really dealing with. 

Look at the disgust and vitriol with which they described their distaste for sex with their spouse. then you tell me if doing the dishes more is going to light their fire (I'm not saying don't do your share of the dishes or any other housework, it needs to be done whether you are with someone or not). 


If your spouse has rejected you and pulled away for a year - don't fiddle fart around with MC or pleading or negotiating. Just walk away as fairly and amicably and cooperatively as you can and don't look back. 


Note: the OP of the thread doesn't sound that all that contemptuous or hateful....but keep reading through some of the responses from some of the other women replying that share her distaste. 

https://forums.webmd.com/3/sex-and-relationships-exchange/forum/9407


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## In Absentia

For some reason, the UK is banned from accessing the website... I can only read one cached page... but I've found this "pearl" on a different forum... I wonder why some people get married at all...


_I just wanted to let you know, you are not alone! I feel this way too. Like you i see sex as disgusting but i'm not single i have been married for 4 years. Its driving my husband mad because we havent had sex in over a year now and i'm happy with that. I dont like it when he even strokes my leg or anything intimate. I am 27, not much older than you.
I hate it when my husband says 'its not normal' and i 'need to see someone about it' because the way i look at it is like this.. he doesnt like bungee jumping but i wouldnt expect him to go 'see someone' about that! its the way i am and thats that! everyone is different._


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## aine

In Absentia said:


> For some reason, the UK is banned from accessing the website... I can only read one cached page... but I've found this "pearl" on a different forum... I wonder why some people get married at all...
> 
> 
> _I just wanted to let you know, you are not alone! I feel this way too. Like you i see sex as disgusting but i'm not single i have been married for 4 years. Its driving my husband mad because we havent had sex in over a year now and i'm happy with that. I dont like it when he even strokes my leg or anything intimate. I am 27, not much older than you.
> I hate it when my husband says 'its not normal' and i 'need to see someone about it' because the way i look at it is like this.. he doesnt like bungee jumping but i wouldnt expect him to go 'see someone' about that! its the way i am and thats that! everyone is different._


I am female and am shocked that a 27 year old wife would speak like this. Sex is a wonderful thing between a man and wife! That poor man.:crazy:


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## Livvie

I read many pages of the posts. Wow!!!! 

Many of these women want to be asexual in their marriages, without negative judgment. WITHOUT negative judgment or consequences!! They completely fail to understand that marriage is by definition a sexual relationship. They truly don't understand why sex is viewed as an important part of marriage and are very very mad that it is.

That's the part I don't understand, at all, how on Earth they got the idea that marriage doesn't imply a sexual relationship.

These women want a friendship/roommate/companion, no sex. 

Anyone have any idea the genesis of their mindset that they should entitled to marriage when all they are going to provide in the relationship is opposite sex friendship??


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## In Absentia

Livvie said:


> Anyone have any idea the genesis of their mindset that they should entitled to marriage when all they are going to provide in the relationship is opposite sex friendship??


It is indeed rather puzzling... :laugh:


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## oldshirt

Livvie said:


> Many of these women want to be asexual in their marriages, without negative judgment. WITHOUT negative judgment or consequences!!


You see that here too in a way but it is coming from the rejected partner's testimony. 

The rejected party will say that their W will react with anger and counter attack with "you-only-care-about-sex!" when they try to discuss it with them. 

That is why I thought that thread gave a very telling insight into the psyches of the rejecting women when they were describing their thoughts and feelings from their perspective as someone who did not want a sex life with their partner. 

It pretty well supports what some of us have been saying for a long time - these chronic sexless marriage cases involve people who do not love and desire their husbands in a romantic or sexual way at all; yet feel completely entitled to a lifetime their husband's resources and support and also feel that their sexlessness should be completely accepted and off the table for discussion. 


It should be required reading for anyone that comes here saying their spouse has been sexually rejecting for no valid reason (ie childbirth/babies, acute illness and injury etc).


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## oldshirt

In Absentia said:


> For some reason, the UK is banned from accessing the website... I can only read one cached page... but I've found this "pearl" on a different forum... I wonder why some people get married at all...


That post is from the aforementioned forum....

but anyway, the reason these people get married is for a wide range of other reasons like social expectation/acceptance, family pressure, financial support, companionship, to have children and in-house child care assistance, tax incentives, social status etc etc 

The catch is women will often sacrifice romantic/sexual desire and attraction to obtain those other things (just like men will sacrifice those other things to obtain sexual chemistry) 

Sex for them serves a purpose of getting a supportive man, getting a home and children and then once those things have been accomplished, the need for sexuality is done for them and they turn off the sex spigot but yet many feel entitled to a lifetime of the other benefits. (…...kind of like Congress here in the US LOL) 

This is why I and a number of other posters have been so hard on you and @uhtred and many others that appear to fail to see just how hopeless your situation really is and how you are being intentionally and methodically being taken to the cleaners for continued support and resources.


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## Tatsuhiko

Love the shallowness of the bungee jumping metaphor. Sure, you shouldn't force someone to bungee jump, and they don't need therapy if they refuse to bungee jump. That makes sense. But similarly, no-one needs to be forced into being married either. And when the marriage is falling apart, as it probably is, why bother with MC? Divorce is "normal", and "everyone is different."


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## LeananSidhe

This makes me so sad in many different ways.

I think one of the biggest problems is that this is looked at as “normal” by so many people. It’s the reason lots of women don’t reach out for help. They get together with their girlfriends and talk about how their husbands are only interested in sex and that they aren’t interested for a variety of different “reasons”. So they feed each other the “this is normal” idea. 
For me, I loved sex before and for several years after my husband and I got married. We had sex all the time. I was called a “nympho” by my female friends. I was the one that was looked at as abnormal for wanting sex all the time. I couldn’t understand how other women didn’t want it.
It felt great!

Then I had our first baby. I was put on a low dose birth control pill. My sex drive lowered but was still fairly active (sex 3-4 times a week). I was so exhausted though. I would fall asleep every night at 8pm for he first 6 months after having the baby. My husband complained a little bit but was mostly understanding. We both assumed that this was normal after having a baby.

Then I had our second baby. I was put on a higher dose birth control pill. My sex drive went even lower. We had sex 2-3 times a week but it was loosely scheduled as once during the week and then twice on the weekend. I didn’t always want to do it that much. It took a lot to get me in the mood. I was rarely ever just ready to go. I could eventually enjoy myself though. This was when my husband started complaining more. I felt really irritated with his complaints because we were still having sex more than other people we knew. I did miss the old me and I started trying different supplements to raise my sex drive. I remember one in particular that was a powder and I had to put it in juice every morning. It tasted like vomit and made me gag and I hated it so much. That’s about the time that I really started resenting my husband. Eventually I realized that this stuff wasn’t helping and stopped. I asked my doctor what I could do and he brushed it off and said that it was normal after having children and being busy. I started accepting that this was just the new me and that my husband would have to get used to it.

Several years later we had a third baby. I was breastfeeding and decided to take a break from birth control because I was worried about my milk supply. Suddenly I wanted sex again. Like actually WANTED it. I felt sexy again. I was having dirty thoughts and fantasies. It was great! I had no idea why things had changed. When baby was around 8 months old I was put on the depo shot for birth control. Within a month my drive was gone. Lower than it had ever been. I forced myself to have sex about once a week but I would have been perfectly happy with no sex. Nothing felt good. I had always loved oral sex but suddenly it felt gross and annoying. There were times when I was fighting the urge to hit my husband during the act because I’d be filled with anger and annoyance. I’d go through the motions and make “enjoyment noises” but I couldn’t get wet. I blamed hormones and getting older (I was only 33) and we bought lube. I hated sex though. I wasn’t even masturbating during this time. My husband actually quit complaining. He was pretty understanding but it was also upsetting because he stopped initiating sex as much. He was just tired of always being turned down. He was still very loving though and I really appreciated that and it helped me remember that I loved him. If he would have completely given up on me I’m sure our marriage would have failed because I would have stopped caring. Again, we were still having sex about once a week. 

A little over a year ago I was reading about birth control side effects and realized that the different ones I had been on coincided with my up and down sex drive. I decided to stop the depo shot. We started using condoms. After several months I started slowly enjoying sex again. I know this might be tmi but I was so excited to get wet again. I still remember the night we realized that I was wet and how happy we both were. Now sex feels AMAZING. I fantasize about it all the time. I touch myself 1-2 times a day. I actually have a higher drive than my husband now. He’s the one asking for breaks. I seriously don’t know when the last time was that I turned him down. I’m ALWAYS down for sex. I want “dirty things” that I wasn’t interested in before. It’s crazy...but wonderful. 

Anyway, I’m just sharing that ridiculously long story because I feel like I have a unique perspective because I’ve been through both sides of this. I absolutely could have seen myself writing similar things about hating sex a couple years ago. 😞


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## farsidejunky

LeananSidhe said:


> This makes me so sad in many different ways.
> 
> I think one of the biggest problems is that this is looked at as “normal” by so many people. It’s the reason lots of women don’t reach out for help. They get together with their girlfriends and talk about how their husbands are only interested in sex and that they aren’t interested for a variety of different “reasons”. So they feed each other the “this is normal” idea.
> For me, I loved sex before and for several years after my husband and I got married. We had sex all the time. I was called a “nympho” by my female friends. I was the one that was looked at as abnormal for wanting sex all the time. I couldn’t understand how other women didn’t want it.
> It felt great!
> 
> Then I had our first baby. I was put on a low dose birth control pill. My sex drive lowered but was still fairly active (sex 3-4 times a week). I was so exhausted though. I would fall asleep every night at 8pm for he first 6 months after having the baby. My husband complained a little bit but was mostly understanding. We both assumed that this was normal after having a baby.
> 
> Then I had our second baby. I was put on a higher dose birth control pill. My sex drive went even lower. We had sex 2-3 times a week but it was loosely scheduled as once during the week and then twice on the weekend. I didn’t always want to do it that much. It took a lot to get me in the mood. I was rarely ever just ready to go. I could eventually enjoy myself though. This was when my husband started complaining more. I felt really irritated with his complaints because we were still having sex more than other people we knew. I did miss the old me and I started trying different supplements to raise my sex drive. I remember one in particular that was a powder and I had to put it in juice every morning. It tasted like vomit and made me gag and I hated it so much. That’s about the time that I really started resenting my husband. Eventually I realized that this stuff wasn’t helping and stopped. I asked my doctor what I could do and he brushed it off and said that it was normal after having children and being busy. I started accepting that this was just the new me and that my husband would have to get used to it.
> 
> Several years later we had a third baby. I was breastfeeding and decided to take a break from birth control because I was worried about my milk supply. Suddenly I wanted sex again. Like actually WANTED it. I felt sexy again. I was having dirty thoughts and fantasies. It was great! I had no idea why things had changed. When baby was around 8 months old I was put on the depo shot for birth control. Within a month my drive was gone. Lower than it had ever been. I forced myself to have sex about once a week but I would have been perfectly happy with no sex. Nothing felt good. I had always loved oral sex but suddenly it felt gross and annoying. There were times when I was fighting the urge to hit my husband during the act because I’d be filled with anger and annoyance. I’d go through the motions and make “enjoyment noises” but I couldn’t get wet. I blamed hormones and getting older (I was only 33) and we bought lube. I hated sex though. I wasn’t even masturbating during this time. My husband actually quit complaining. He was pretty understanding but it was also upsetting because he stopped initiating sex as much. He was just tired of always being turned down. He was still very loving though and I really appreciated that and it helped me remember that I loved him. If he would have completely given up on me I’m sure our marriage would have failed because I would have stopped caring. Again, we were still having sex about once a week.
> 
> A little over a year ago I was reading about birth control side effects and realized that the different ones I had been on coincided with my up and down sex drive. I decided to stop the depo shot. We started using condoms. After several months I started slowly enjoying sex again. I know this might be tmi but I was so excited to get wet again. I still remember the night we realized that I was wet and how happy we both were. Now sex feels AMAZING. I fantasize about it all the time. I touch myself 1-2 times a day. I actually have a higher drive than my husband now. He’s the one asking for breaks. I seriously don’t know when the last time was that I turned him down. I’m ALWAYS down for sex. I want “dirty things” that I wasn’t interested in before. It’s crazy...but wonderful.
> 
> Anyway, I’m just sharing that ridiculously long story because I feel like I have a unique perspective because I’ve been through both sides of this. I absolutely could have seen myself writing similar things about hating sex a couple years ago. 😞


You never stopped trying. 

That is why your story is (positively) different.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## LeananSidhe

farsidejunky said:


> LeananSidhe said:
> 
> 
> 
> This makes me so sad in many different ways.
> 
> I think one of the biggest problems is that this is looked at as “normal” by so many people. It’s the reason lots of women don’t reach out for help. They get together with their girlfriends and talk about how their husbands are only interested in sex and that they aren’t interested for a variety of different “reasons”. So they feed each other the “this is normal” idea.
> For me, I loved sex before and for several years after my husband and I got married. We had sex all the time. I was called a “nympho” by my female friends. I was the one that was looked at as abnormal for wanting sex all the time. I couldn’t understand how other women didn’t want it.
> It felt great!
> 
> Then I had our first baby. I was put on a low dose birth control pill. My sex drive lowered but was still fairly active (sex 3-4 times a week). I was so exhausted though. I would fall asleep every night at 8pm for he first 6 months after having the baby. My husband complained a little bit but was mostly understanding. We both assumed that this was normal after having a baby.
> 
> Then I had our second baby. I was put on a higher dose birth control pill. My sex drive went even lower. We had sex 2-3 times a week but it was loosely scheduled as once during the week and then twice on the weekend. I didn’t always want to do it that much. It took a lot to get me in the mood. I was rarely ever just ready to go. I could eventually enjoy myself though. This was when my husband started complaining more. I felt really irritated with his complaints because we were still having sex more than other people we knew. I did miss the old me and I started trying different supplements to raise my sex drive. I remember one in particular that was a powder and I had to put it in juice every morning. It tasted like vomit and made me gag and I hated it so much. That’s about the time that I really started resenting my husband. Eventually I realized that this stuff wasn’t helping and stopped. I asked my doctor what I could do and he brushed it off and said that it was normal after having children and being busy. I started accepting that this was just the new me and that my husband would have to get used to it.
> 
> Several years later we had a third baby. I was breastfeeding and decided to take a break from birth control because I was worried about my milk supply. Suddenly I wanted sex again. Like actually WANTED it. I felt sexy again. I was having dirty thoughts and fantasies. It was great! I had no idea why things had changed. When baby was around 8 months old I was put on the depo shot for birth control. Within a month my drive was gone. Lower than it had ever been. I forced myself to have sex about once a week but I would have been perfectly happy with no sex. Nothing felt good. I had always loved oral sex but suddenly it felt gross and annoying. There were times when I was fighting the urge to hit my husband during the act because I’d be filled with anger and annoyance. I’d go through the motions and make “enjoyment noises” but I couldn’t get wet. I blamed hormones and getting older (I was only 33) and we bought lube. I hated sex though. I wasn’t even masturbating during this time. My husband actually quit complaining. He was pretty understanding but it was also upsetting because he stopped initiating sex as much. He was just tired of always being turned down. He was still very loving though and I really appreciated that and it helped me remember that I loved him. If he would have completely given up on me I’m sure our marriage would have failed because I would have stopped caring. Again, we were still having sex about once a week.
> 
> A little over a year ago I was reading about birth control side effects and realized that the different ones I had been on coincided with my up and down sex drive. I decided to stop the depo shot. We started using condoms. After several months I started slowly enjoying sex again. I know this might be tmi but I was so excited to get wet again. I still remember the night we realized that I was wet and how happy we both were. Now sex feels AMAZING. I fantasize about it all the time. I touch myself 1-2 times a day. I actually have a higher drive than my husband now. He’s the one asking for breaks. I seriously don’t know when the last time was that I turned him down. I’m ALWAYS down for sex. I want “dirty things” that I wasn’t interested in before. It’s crazy...but wonderful.
> 
> Anyway, I’m just sharing that ridiculously long story because I feel like I have a unique perspective because I’ve been through both sides of this. I absolutely could have seen myself writing similar things about hating sex a couple years ago. 😞
> 
> 
> 
> You never stopped trying.
> 
> That is why your story is (positively) different.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

But I think I would have eventually. Everyone around me was telling me that it was normal. My husband had eventually given up on having a very active sex life. I was starting to give it up too. You can only force yourself to do something that you despise for so long before it becomes too much. 
The only things that kept me trying was my husband’s loving, affectionate nature even when he wasn’t getting as much sex as he wanted and the memory that I used to enjoy it. But memories fade and I’m sure eventually he would have become less understanding. 

It’s a sad, scary thought.


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## Andy1001

oldshirt said:


> That post is from the aforementioned forum....
> 
> but anyway, the reason these people get married is for a wide range of other reasons like social expectation/acceptance, family pressure, financial support, companionship, to have children and in-house child care assistance, tax incentives, social status etc etc
> 
> The catch is women will often sacrifice romantic/sexual desire and attraction to obtain those other things (just like men will sacrifice those other things to obtain sexual chemistry)
> 
> Sex for them serves a purpose of getting a supportive man, getting a home and children and then once those things have been accomplished, the need for sexuality is done for them and they turn off the sex spigot but yet many feel entitled to a lifetime of the other benefits. (…...kind of like Congress here in the US LOL)
> 
> This is why I and a number of other posters have been so hard on you and @uhtred and many others that appear to fail to see just how hopeless your situation really is and how you are being intentionally and methodically being taken to the cleaners for continued support and resources.


In simpler terms if a woman is trying to catch a mouse she will put cheese on the mousetrap.
Once she catches the mouse she doesn’t need the cheese anymore.


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## oldshirt

LeananSidhe said:


> Anyway, I’m just sharing that ridiculously long story because I feel like I have a unique perspective because I’ve been through both sides of this. I absolutely could have seen myself writing similar things about hating sex a couple years ago. 😞


Thanks for sharing your story and your perspectives from both sides of the aisle. 

I have the feeling your story is not all that rare or unique however and imagine very similar situations occur all the time. 

My wife and I went through much the same thing although I definitely noticed the pattern after baby #2 and had my plumbing disconnected within a few months of his birth. 

My wife is also very sensitive to hormonal changes and she could swing pretty wildly from being an actual swinger and porn star material (and we do have our own little private collection of homemade pictures and videos :-D ) to at times being very close to the women on that other forum. 


We were fortunate in that even though we did go through a number of doctors who basically told us to suck it up and get some comfy chairs and lemonade for the porch (we were older than you when we had kids and she was in her early 40s when the bad hormonal issues started) she eventually got to a sympathetic internal med doctor who diagnosed her with Premenstrual Dysmorphic Disorder (which is basically being stuck in PMS 24/7) and was able to treat her and that made a night and day difference. 


That doctor was also able to get through to my wife and told her in no uncertain terms that people suffering from untreated PMDD often lose their marriages and lose their jobs and some even end up in jail or mental facilities. 

Like the women in the forum, she was lashing out at me and blaming me for wanting a marital sex life which was so ironic to me because we had previously had a wonderful sex life that porn stars would be jealous of. 

She ended up getting a uterine ablation and put on hormonal therapy and within a few months we were back to living the porn star life and were back in the swinging lifestyle again. 

(this was a number of years ago and we are no longer active in the swinging community) 

The thing that both you and my wife had in common though was both of you realized that something was out of kilter and you each wanted to have a healthy sex life and marital intimacy with your husbands. 

Both you and my wife may have been angry and resentful at times of us husbands wanting to maintain a sex life, but you both realized that you were out of character in the way you were feeling. 

I don't think a lot of these women do. I think a lot of them are perfectly healthy physiologically and psychologically but do not have any attraction or desire for their husbands but want to retain the benefits of marriage and an inhouse coparent and someone to fix the leaky fawcets and pay the bills. 

And they want their H's to accept it and put their testicles in a jar on the basement shelf and turn off the light as they shut the door behind them. 


This may sound a little harsh towards you but I do not mean it to be such, but kudos to you for recognizing that your H was a normal, healthy man with realistic and reasonable needs. And Kudos to you for realizing that something was off kilter with you and that you too were missing the intimacy and bonding and were wanting to get your sexy back and wanting to return to a healthy and intimate marriage. 


That is the part that I think it missing in many of these dead bedroom scenarios.


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## CharlieParker

Andy1001 said:


> In simpler terms if a woman is trying to catch a mouse she will put cheese on the mousetrap.
> Once she catches the mouse she doesn’t need the cheese anymore.


Sometimes the second mouse gets her cheese. Or the mouse will get his cheese elsewhere. 

I apparently like cheese metaphors, menopause moved our cheese but we are willing to work find the new route.


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## Andy1001

CharlieParker said:


> Sometimes the second mouse gets her cheese. Or the mouse will get his cheese elsewhere.
> 
> I apparently like cheese metaphors, menopause moved our cheese but we are willing to work find the new route.


I only like one type of cheese and I always get it at the same place.
If that source ever started rationing or cut off supply altogether I wouldn’t have any hesitation in mentioning that there are lots of other sources for cheese.


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## ConanHub

LeananSidhe said:


> But I think I would have eventually. Everyone around me was telling me that it was normal. My husband had eventually given up on having a very active sex life. I was starting to give it up too. You can only force yourself to do something that you despise for so long before it becomes too much.
> The only things that kept me trying was my husband’s loving, affectionate nature even when he wasn’t getting as much sex as he wanted and the memory that I used to enjoy it. But memories fade and I’m sure eventually he would have become less understanding.
> 
> It’s a sad, scary thought.


I'm glad you two made it. There are other avenues as well.

I'm loving but demanding as well and when a spouse, regardless of gender, doesn't want to work on the problem , it is over as far as I'm concerned.

Mrs. C and I went through a phase or two with her having diminished desire and drive.

I love her but I'll be damned if I'm going without and I tactfully and lovingly let her know if she didn't want me like that anymore that there were many women that would be happy to apply for the position.

I let her know that she was my choice but she had to choose me back.

She upped her game immediately and has never looked back.

I'm not impressed with women who throw excuses around or men who put up with it for too long.

If you are in a sexless marriage or where sex isn't enjoyable, something is obviously pretty ****ing seriously wrong and in dire need of repair.

People who lazily cop that it is normal deserve to lose the marriage they are crapping on.

Not a lot of sympathy for anyone who is on either side of this situation.

Several years ago I was friends with a beautiful young lady who saved herself for marriage only to divorce him within a year. The pathetic boy she married wouldn't have sex with her.

Good on her for not putting up with his bull **** for very long.


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## In Absentia

LeananSidhe said:


> Again, we were still having sex about once a week.


You tried and that is good. My wife (well, roommate right now) is on ADs and has been for many years for a condition (OCD - intrusive thoughts) that could be "cured" or at least made better with the right therapy. She agreed, then changed her mind. This is what I resent. That our 25+ years marriage is not worth saving. So, a few weeks ago she proposed me a sexless marriage, because all her work colleagues don't have sex with their husbands any more, anyway... we are 55... it is rather sad, but she is ok with me getting sex somewhere else. Which is something I don't really understand. Ah, well...


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## In Absentia

oldshirt said:


> That post is from the aforementioned forum....


Strange... it was on a British forum... maybe this person likes to spread her sex hate all over the world... :laugh:


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## uhtred

I think that there are a lot of reasons and a lot of situations. Some women used sex to "trap" their husbands then stopped. Others had issues with medication (and it makes me so furious that the drug companies don't talk about these tragic side effects), some never wanted sex, some want sex occasionally. 

I don't think that there is anything like a one-size-fits-all approach to low sex marriages.


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## In Absentia

uhtred said:


> I don't think that there is anything like a one-size-fits-all approach to low sex marriages.


The only approach is to have a clear and honest conversation, devise a plan and stick to it... communication is paramount, but the harsh truth can hurt.


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## sokillme

In Absentia said:


> For some reason, the UK is banned from accessing the website... I can only read one cached page... but I've found this "pearl" on a different forum... I wonder why some people get married at all...
> 
> 
> _I just wanted to let you know, you are not alone! I feel this way too. Like you i see sex as disgusting but i'm not single i have been married for 4 years. Its driving my husband mad because we havent had sex in over a year now and i'm happy with that. I dont like it when he even strokes my leg or anything intimate. I am 27, not much older than you.
> I hate it when my husband says 'its not normal' and i 'need to see someone about it' because the way i look at it is like this.. he doesnt like bungee jumping but i wouldnt expect him to go 'see someone' about that! its the way i am and thats that! everyone is different._


Because they are entitled children. I think of these people the same way I think of those who want to have a polygamous sexlife but don't tell their monogamous partner before they get married. Just as selfish. 

I mean one woman compares it to bungee jumping. Umm no. Her husband can always go bungee jumping. If he made vows she is the only one he can have sex with. This is why it's so unfair. I mean if she was willing to open her marriage then maybe. But if you are someone like me who wants to have feelings about the person I have sex, if I was in that situation I am effectively left with two choices, end my marriage or be celibate. That is really a cruel thing to do to your spouse. At the very least you should tell them if they are suffering and let them make the choice. 

These people are so selfish they don't even see what they are doing as wrong, the consider it an imposition to for their spouse to even want to have sex with them. Selfish people suck, especially when you are married to them.


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## sokillme

oldshirt said:


> The rejected party will say that their W will react with anger and counter attack with "you-only-care-about-sex!" when they try to discuss it with them.


The answer to that is, I obviously care about you because I am still with you though you are depriving me of the most basic of requirements in a normal healthy marriage. But I, like most healthy people DO CARE about sex. You seem to not care about it at all.

Besides that assuming one party wants what most monogamous people consider a normally healthy sex life a sexless marriage is just not sustainable.


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## sokillme

LeananSidhe said:


> This makes me so sad in many different ways.
> 
> I think one of the biggest problems is that this is looked at as “normal” by so many people. It’s the reason lots of women don’t reach out for help. They get together with their girlfriends and talk about how their husbands are only interested in sex and that they aren’t interested for a variety of different “reasons”. So they feed each other the “this is normal” idea.
> For me, I loved sex before and for several years after my husband and I got married. We had sex all the time. I was called a “nympho” by my female friends. I was the one that was looked at as abnormal for wanting sex all the time. I couldn’t understand how other women didn’t want it.
> It felt great!
> 
> Then I had our first baby. I was put on a low dose birth control pill. My sex drive lowered but was still fairly active (sex 3-4 times a week). I was so exhausted though. I would fall asleep every night at 8pm for he first 6 months after having the baby. My husband complained a little bit but was mostly understanding. We both assumed that this was normal after having a baby.
> 
> Then I had our second baby. I was put on a higher dose birth control pill. My sex drive went even lower. We had sex 2-3 times a week but it was loosely scheduled as once during the week and then twice on the weekend. I didn’t always want to do it that much. It took a lot to get me in the mood. I was rarely ever just ready to go. I could eventually enjoy myself though. This was when my husband started complaining more. I felt really irritated with his complaints because we were still having sex more than other people we knew. I did miss the old me and I started trying different supplements to raise my sex drive. I remember one in particular that was a powder and I had to put it in juice every morning. It tasted like vomit and made me gag and I hated it so much. That’s about the time that I really started resenting my husband. Eventually I realized that this stuff wasn’t helping and stopped. I asked my doctor what I could do and he brushed it off and said that it was normal after having children and being busy. I started accepting that this was just the new me and that my husband would have to get used to it.
> 
> Several years later we had a third baby. I was breastfeeding and decided to take a break from birth control because I was worried about my milk supply. Suddenly I wanted sex again. Like actually WANTED it. I felt sexy again. I was having dirty thoughts and fantasies. It was great! I had no idea why things had changed. When baby was around 8 months old I was put on the depo shot for birth control. Within a month my drive was gone. Lower than it had ever been. I forced myself to have sex about once a week but I would have been perfectly happy with no sex. Nothing felt good. I had always loved oral sex but suddenly it felt gross and annoying. There were times when I was fighting the urge to hit my husband during the act because I’d be filled with anger and annoyance. I’d go through the motions and make “enjoyment noises” but I couldn’t get wet. I blamed hormones and getting older (I was only 33) and we bought lube. I hated sex though. I wasn’t even masturbating during this time. My husband actually quit complaining. He was pretty understanding but it was also upsetting because he stopped initiating sex as much. He was just tired of always being turned down. He was still very loving though and I really appreciated that and it helped me remember that I loved him. If he would have completely given up on me I’m sure our marriage would have failed because I would have stopped caring. Again, we were still having sex about once a week.
> 
> A little over a year ago I was reading about birth control side effects and realized that the different ones I had been on coincided with my up and down sex drive. I decided to stop the depo shot. We started using condoms. After several months I started slowly enjoying sex again. I know this might be tmi but I was so excited to get wet again. I still remember the night we realized that I was wet and how happy we both were. Now sex feels AMAZING. I fantasize about it all the time. I touch myself 1-2 times a day. I actually have a higher drive than my husband now. He’s the one asking for breaks. I seriously don’t know when the last time was that I turned him down. I’m ALWAYS down for sex. I want “dirty things” that I wasn’t interested in before. It’s crazy...but wonderful.
> 
> Anyway, I’m just sharing that ridiculously long story because I feel like I have a unique perspective because I’ve been through both sides of this. I absolutely could have seen myself writing similar things about hating sex a couple years ago. 😞


You sound like a good wife. 

I wish more women understood what sex means to their husbands in an emotional sense. It really is one of the times were he feels closest to her. I get the sense that it's like when a husband has a deeply emotional conversation with his wife where some women feel closest to him, she feels like she means the world to her. Where they connect emotionally and feel like the two of them are deeply on the same page. That to me is what romance really is. It's a moment or moments of deep emotional connection. 

If you have a good husband who strives for that with you it's really a shame if there was something that you could do that would touch him very similarly in that way and it's just discounted as some sort of joint act like dancing or something. It is SO NOT THAT for a great deal of men. It's also why the more intimate the sexual act is the closer he may feel. It's the vulnerability (very similar to emotional vulnerability although there is some dispute in my mind that too much emotional vulnerability has a negative effect on your wife's feelings for you. But some sexual vulnerabilities may turn off a husband as well.), the vulnerability that makes them feel closer. But for a husband to feel that way there has to be effort. Just like their has to be effort from the husband to connect with his wife emotionally. Can't just give flowers all the time, you have to really get to know her in a deep way. Yes it's not easy at first but I think when you get how it makes you closer wouldn't you want that. 

Sigh...


----------



## LeananSidhe

uhtred said:


> I think that there are a lot of reasons and a lot of situations. Some women used sex to "trap" their husbands then stopped. Others had issues with medication (and it makes me so furious that the drug companies don't talk about these tragic side effects), some never wanted sex, some want sex occasionally.
> 
> I don't think that there is anything like a one-size-fits-all approach to low sex marriages.


This is so true and the reason I keep telling my story over and over again. Most of the advice given to men in this group would have caused extreme hurt and anger in MY marriage. Even when my husband and I weren’t having sex very much, we still considered ourselves a pretty happy couple. We were still happy to be with each other. Maybe that would have changed eventually...but the main thing that kept me wanting to get back our great sex life was his kind, loving attitude towards me. 

I know that there are lots of women who don’t care about sex, that have trapped their husbands or whatever. But I really feel like the majority just don’t know why they feel the way they do and wish things were better but don’t know how to fix it. 

We only hear one side of the story here. We have know idea what’s really happening in the homes and bedrooms. I was just telling my husband that I should start sending my single friends to TAM because there seems to be an odd number of “attractive and well off men who help around the house all the time and give massages and gifts and do everything for their partners who in turn don’t care and tell them to go away....Yeah, ok.


----------



## sokillme

LeananSidhe said:


> But I think I would have eventually. Everyone around me was telling me that it was normal. My husband had eventually given up on having a very active sex life. I was starting to give it up too. You can only force yourself to do something that you despise for so long before it becomes too much.
> The only things that kept me trying was my husband’s loving, affectionate nature even when he wasn’t getting as much sex as he wanted and the memory that I used to enjoy it. But memories fade and I’m sure eventually he would have become less understanding.
> 
> It’s a sad, scary thought.


He may also have left you. Something that I and many others encourage people to do (obviously not at first) if there is not a willing heart by the rejecting spouse to see that this is a necessary part of marriage. I advise this because I personally don't believe most sexless marriages are sustainable long term and is really a waste of time. Eventually it will blow up because it's not a healthy marriage or good marriage. It's by it's very nature a bad marriage. It's like cancer, eventually it's going to kill the marriage. Some people hold off the disease and die of natural causes but if you live long enough it's going to kill you. Assuming once spouse has a natural healthy desire for sex, a sexless marriage is on a path for death.

By the way I would give the same advice to a wife whose husband just uses her as a maid/mother.

When you make vows to people you have a responsibility to them. Intimacy is what is restricted in the vows we take for marriage. We say there is a certain level of intimacy that is reserved for only you. Therefor we must, MUST make sure we strive to provide that for our spouses at the best of our abilities. This is like a basic requirement for marriage.


----------



## BluesPower

oldshirt said:


> It pretty well supports what some of us have been saying for a long time - these chronic sexless marriage cases involve people who do not love and desire their husbands in a romantic or sexual way at all; yet feel completely entitled to a lifetime their husband's resources and support and also feel that their sexlessness should be completely accepted and off the table for discussion.
> 
> 
> It should be required reading for anyone that comes here saying their spouse has been sexually rejecting for no valid reason (ie childbirth/babies, acute illness and injury etc).


Well this is what I have been saying for years, but lots of people would argue with it to the death. 

But if you look a cromers and MThomas threads, this is exactly what was happening. And you see it time and time again. 

Now, if you tell a rejected male spouse what is really going on, they will not believe you if you put a gun to their head. 

Like I said on another thread, the men that stay around for years living with this type of rejection, well, I just don't get it and I never will. Ever. It is beyond my brain's capacity to understand. 

But like someone above said, "where do these women get the idea that sex is not a necessary and should actually be the best part of the marriage"? 

Where does that come from, how does anyone think that is how it is???


----------



## BluesPower

LeananSidhe said:


> This makes me so sad in many different ways.
> 
> I think one of the biggest problems is that this is looked at as “normal” by so many people. It’s the reason lots of women don’t reach out for help. They get together with their girlfriends and talk about how their husbands are only interested in sex and that they aren’t interested for a variety of different “reasons”. So they feed each other the “this is normal” idea.
> For me, I loved sex before and for several years after my husband and I got married. We had sex all the time. I was called a “nympho” by my female friends. I was the one that was looked at as abnormal for wanting sex all the time. I couldn’t understand how other women didn’t want it.
> It felt great!
> 
> Then I had our first baby. I was put on a low dose birth control pill. My sex drive lowered but was still fairly active (sex 3-4 times a week). I was so exhausted though. I would fall asleep every night at 8pm for he first 6 months after having the baby. My husband complained a little bit but was mostly understanding. We both assumed that this was normal after having a baby.
> 
> Then I had our second baby. I was put on a higher dose birth control pill. My sex drive went even lower. We had sex 2-3 times a week but it was loosely scheduled as once during the week and then twice on the weekend. I didn’t always want to do it that much. It took a lot to get me in the mood. I was rarely ever just ready to go. I could eventually enjoy myself though. This was when my husband started complaining more. I felt really irritated with his complaints because we were still having sex more than other people we knew. I did miss the old me and I started trying different supplements to raise my sex drive. I remember one in particular that was a powder and I had to put it in juice every morning. It tasted like vomit and made me gag and I hated it so much. That’s about the time that I really started resenting my husband. Eventually I realized that this stuff wasn’t helping and stopped. I asked my doctor what I could do and he brushed it off and said that it was normal after having children and being busy. I started accepting that this was just the new me and that my husband would have to get used to it.
> 
> Several years later we had a third baby. I was breastfeeding and decided to take a break from birth control because I was worried about my milk supply. Suddenly I wanted sex again. Like actually WANTED it. I felt sexy again. I was having dirty thoughts and fantasies. It was great! I had no idea why things had changed. When baby was around 8 months old I was put on the depo shot for birth control. Within a month my drive was gone. Lower than it had ever been. I forced myself to have sex about once a week but I would have been perfectly happy with no sex. Nothing felt good. I had always loved oral sex but suddenly it felt gross and annoying. There were times when I was fighting the urge to hit my husband during the act because I’d be filled with anger and annoyance. I’d go through the motions and make “enjoyment noises” but I couldn’t get wet. I blamed hormones and getting older (I was only 33) and we bought lube. I hated sex though. I wasn’t even masturbating during this time. My husband actually quit complaining. He was pretty understanding but it was also upsetting because he stopped initiating sex as much. He was just tired of always being turned down. He was still very loving though and I really appreciated that and it helped me remember that I loved him. If he would have completely given up on me I’m sure our marriage would have failed because I would have stopped caring. Again, we were still having sex about once a week.
> 
> A little over a year ago I was reading about birth control side effects and realized that the different ones I had been on coincided with my up and down sex drive. I decided to stop the depo shot. We started using condoms. After several months I started slowly enjoying sex again. I know this might be tmi but I was so excited to get wet again. I still remember the night we realized that I was wet and how happy we both were. Now sex feels AMAZING. I fantasize about it all the time. I touch myself 1-2 times a day. I actually have a higher drive than my husband now. He’s the one asking for breaks. I seriously don’t know when the last time was that I turned him down. I’m ALWAYS down for sex. I want “dirty things” that I wasn’t interested in before. It’s crazy...but wonderful.
> .
> .
> .
> 
> Anyway, I’m just sharing that ridiculously long story because I feel like I have a unique perspective because I’ve been through both sides of this. I absolutely could have seen myself writing similar things about hating sex a couple years ago. 😞


I have made this comment to you on several thread and you have not acknowledged the PRAISE that you are do for how you handled your situation. 

Now, maybe if your H had not been so understanding, or had gotten pissed off, you may have lost your love for him. And maybe your marriage would have failed. Or maybe it was all just a happy accident that you figured out what the issue was and you were able to recover your drive. 

But the thing that you deserve praise for is that you actively looked for a solution to that problem, you just did not tell your H to pound sand, you deserve a lot of credit. 

Because a lot of women will not do that. 

And that is not to say that there are not a lot of women in the sexless boat as well, and they stay when they should not, because their husband is not working on the issue. 

But you deserve to be praised for the way that you handled it.


----------



## BluesPower

ConanHub said:


> I'm glad you two made it. There are other avenues as well.
> 
> I'm loving but demanding as well and when a spouse, regardless of gender, doesn't want to work on the problem , it is over as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> Mrs. C and I went through a phase or two with her having diminished desire and drive.
> 
> I love her but I'll be damned if I'm going without and I tactfully and lovingly let her know if she didn't want me like that anymore that there were many women that would be happy to apply for the position.
> 
> I let her know that she was my choice but she had to choose me back.
> 
> She upped her game immediately and has never looked back.
> 
> I'm not impressed with women who throw excuses around or men who put up with it for too long.
> 
> If you are in a sexless marriage or where sex isn't enjoyable, something is obviously pretty ****ing seriously wrong and in dire need of repair.
> 
> People who lazily cop that it is normal deserve to lose the marriage they are crapping on.
> 
> Not a lot of sympathy for anyone who is on either side of this situation.
> 
> Several years ago I was friends with a beautiful young lady who saved herself for marriage only to divorce him within a year. The pathetic boy she married wouldn't have sex with her.
> 
> Good on her for not putting up with his bull **** for very long.


This is well said. I too have little respect for either those with a problem and do not work on it, or those that stay in a sexless relationship. 

I counseled a young women the other night about this very thing. She knew that her husband had red flags and was probably Super LD, or asexual. 

I gave her all the standard info, but he was a doctor and they had a great life, and guys, this woman was stunning in every way, just stunning. It was absolutely not her fault that her husband was that way. 

But she had never gotten any decent sex from her husband and it had dwindled to zero. 

I told her that most likely it would never get better and that is she wanted a sex life she had to leave him. 

I saw her the other night and she is still trying, bless her heart...


----------



## BluesPower

In Absentia said:


> You tried and that is good. My wife (well, roommate right now) is on ADs and has been for many years for a condition (OCD - intrusive thoughts) that could be "cured" or at least made better with the right therapy. She agreed, then changed her mind. This is what I resent. That our 25+ years marriage is not worth saving. So, a few weeks ago she proposed me a sexless marriage, because all her work colleagues don't have sex with their husbands any more, anyway... we are 55... it is rather sad, but she is ok with me getting sex somewhere else. Which is something I don't really understand. Ah, well...


Yes she if fine with you getting sex else where as long as you continue to pay the bills and give her a comfortable life. 

As many have told you, she is like the women in that forum. And just so you know, people can talk about age and menopause but understand this. 

I am 54, my GF is 60, and postmenopausal. She is hot to trot all the time, every time I "Check" her, she is wet, every single time. 

She is wonderful everyway, but she is outstanding sexually. 

And she is not the only woman that age that I have known to be that way either. It has to do with desire and love, not much else...


----------



## LeananSidhe

BluesPower said:


> LeananSidhe said:
> 
> 
> 
> This makes me so sad in many different ways.
> 
> I think one of the biggest problems is that this is looked at as “normal” by so many people. It’s the reason lots of women don’t reach out for help. They get together with their girlfriends and talk about how their husbands are only interested in sex and that they aren’t interested for a variety of different “reasons”. So they feed each other the “this is normal” idea.
> For me, I loved sex before and for several years after my husband and I got married. We had sex all the time. I was called a “nympho” by my female friends. I was the one that was looked at as abnormal for wanting sex all the time. I couldn’t understand how other women didn’t want it.
> It felt great!
> 
> Then I had our first baby. I was put on a low dose birth control pill. My sex drive lowered but was still fairly active (sex 3-4 times a week). I was so exhausted though. I would fall asleep every night at 8pm for he first 6 months after having the baby. My husband complained a little bit but was mostly understanding. We both assumed that this was normal after having a baby.
> 
> Then I had our second baby. I was put on a higher dose birth control pill. My sex drive went even lower. We had sex 2-3 times a week but it was loosely scheduled as once during the week and then twice on the weekend. I didn’t always want to do it that much. It took a lot to get me in the mood. I was rarely ever just ready to go. I could eventually enjoy myself though. This was when my husband started complaining more. I felt really irritated with his complaints because we were still having sex more than other people we knew. I did miss the old me and I started trying different supplements to raise my sex drive. I remember one in particular that was a powder and I had to put it in juice every morning. It tasted like vomit and made me gag and I hated it so much. That’s about the time that I really started resenting my husband. Eventually I realized that this stuff wasn’t helping and stopped. I asked my doctor what I could do and he brushed it off and said that it was normal after having children and being busy. I started accepting that this was just the new me and that my husband would have to get used to it.
> 
> Several years later we had a third baby. I was breastfeeding and decided to take a break from birth control because I was worried about my milk supply. Suddenly I wanted sex again. Like actually WANTED it. I felt sexy again. I was having dirty thoughts and fantasies. It was great! I had no idea why things had changed. When baby was around 8 months old I was put on the depo shot for birth control. Within a month my drive was gone. Lower than it had ever been. I forced myself to have sex about once a week but I would have been perfectly happy with no sex. Nothing felt good. I had always loved oral sex but suddenly it felt gross and annoying. There were times when I was fighting the urge to hit my husband during the act because I’d be filled with anger and annoyance. I’d go through the motions and make “enjoyment noises” but I couldn’t get wet. I blamed hormones and getting older (I was only 33) and we bought lube. I hated sex though. I wasn’t even masturbating during this time. My husband actually quit complaining. He was pretty understanding but it was also upsetting because he stopped initiating sex as much. He was just tired of always being turned down. He was still very loving though and I really appreciated that and it helped me remember that I loved him. If he would have completely given up on me I’m sure our marriage would have failed because I would have stopped caring. Again, we were still having sex about once a week.
> 
> A little over a year ago I was reading about birth control side effects and realized that the different ones I had been on coincided with my up and down sex drive. I decided to stop the depo shot. We started using condoms. After several months I started slowly enjoying sex again. I know this might be tmi but I was so excited to get wet again. I still remember the night we realized that I was wet and how happy we both were. Now sex feels AMAZING. I fantasize about it all the time. I touch myself 1-2 times a day. I actually have a higher drive than my husband now. He’s the one asking for breaks. I seriously don’t know when the last time was that I turned him down. I’m ALWAYS down for sex. I want “dirty things” that I wasn’t interested in before. It’s crazy...but wonderful.
> .
> .
> .
> 
> Anyway, I’m just sharing that ridiculously long story because I feel like I have a unique perspective because I’ve been through both sides of this. I absolutely could have seen myself writing similar things about hating sex a couple years ago. 😞
> 
> 
> 
> I have made this comment to you on several thread and you have not acknowledged the PRAISE that you are do for how you handled your situation.
> 
> Now, maybe if your H had not been so understanding, or had gotten pissed off, you may have lost your love for him. And maybe your marriage would have failed. Or maybe it was all just a happy accident that you figured out what the issue was and you were able to recover your drive.
> 
> But the thing that you deserve praise for is that you actively looked for a solution to that problem, you just did not tell your H to pound sand, you deserve a lot of credit.
> 
> Because a lot of women will not do that.
> 
> And that is not to say that there are not a lot of women in the sexless boat as well, and they stay when they should not, because their husband is not working on the issue.
> 
> But you deserve to be praised for the way that you handled it.
Click to expand...

Thank you. 🙂

It is nice to hear a little praise. Lol. My husband is normally the one who gets all the praise from others because of what a great husband he is. He’s great in ways that he can show off in public so more people see it. Everyone is always telling me how lucky I am and how he spoils me. 
That’s probably why I love it when he brags about our sex life to his work friends. It’s about time he hears how lucky he is! 🙂


----------



## BluesPower

LeananSidhe said:


> I know that there are lots of women who don’t care about sex, that have trapped their husbands or whatever. But I really feel like the majority just don’t know why they feel the way they do and wish things were better but don’t know how to fix it.


This is where I disagree with you. I think you are rare and you enjoyed sex with your husband, and you loved him. 

That is the key difference, and if you had not figured it out, you don't really know if your H would have stayed. 

But you never stopped having some type of sex, that is the difference between you and these women that we are talking about. 

I don't think that the majority of these women care that they don't want sex and they don't care about their husbands.


----------



## oldshirt

LeananSidhe said:


> This is so true and the reason I keep telling my story over and over again. Most of the advice given to men in this group would have caused extreme hurt and anger in MY marriage. Even when my husband and I weren’t having sex very much, we still considered ourselves a pretty happy couple. We were still happy to be with each other. Maybe that would have changed eventually...but the main thing that kept me wanting to get back our great sex life was his kind, loving attitude towards me.
> 
> I know that there are lots of women who don’t care about sex, that have trapped their husbands or whatever. But I really feel like the majority just don’t know why they feel the way they do and wish things were better but don’t know how to fix it.
> 
> We only hear one side of the story here. We have know idea what’s really happening in the homes and bedrooms. I was just telling my husband that I should start sending my single friends to TAM because there seems to be an odd number of “attractive and well off men who help around the house all the time and give massages and gifts and do everything for their partners who in turn don’t care and tell them to go away....Yeah, ok.


Many of these things do happen in marriages and all marriages will have a variety of bumps in the road and challenges and even downright tragedies. 

You and your H were able to work through this issue and that is awesome and as a number of us have already said, you do deserve a fist-bump and pat on the back for recognizing there was a problem, having compassion and understanding for your H's needs and doing the work to get back on track. 

Your H also deserves some kudos in not boinking the secretary during your dry spell and for not packing his bags and leaving as well as kudos for expressing his concerns and frustrations in a way that did not alienate you or make you resentful/hateful of him. 

But here a few things that everyone needs to keep in mind in no particular order - 

- you did have a bona fide attraction and desire for him and a healthy sex life with him prior to the issue(s).
--------a good number of women don't, so therefor they do not miss anything and have no motive or motivation to get it back. 

- Your H may have remained loving and supportive but he did not remain silent and he did not turn to porn or affairs or withdrawn into himself and his own self-indulgence and further emotionally disconnect so that the rest of the relationship went to pot. 

-you realized your marriage may be in jeopardy and he may bolt or stray if it wasn't fixed. 

- Had he accepted this sexless lifestyle and became a doormat and continued to rub your feet (I'm not knocking it BTW, I love giving foot rubs; I'm just using it figuratively) and be a good housekeeper and nanny - for all we know this may have gone on indefinitely or even forever. 

IMHO the combination of your previous desire and healthy sex life and your H not being a doormat and you realizing that this could serious jeopardize your marriage all motivated you to do something about it. 

Cont.....


----------



## ConanHub

BluesPower said:


> Yes she if fine with you getting sex else where as long as you continue to pay the bills and give her a comfortable life.
> 
> As many have told you, she is like the women in that forum. And just so you know, people can talk about age and menopause but understand this.
> 
> I am 54, my GF is 60, and postmenopausal. She is hot to trot all the time, every time I "Check" her, she is wet, every single time.
> 
> She is wonderful everyway, but she is outstanding sexually.
> 
> And she is not the only woman that age that I have known to be that way either. It has to do with desire and love, not much else...


Mrs. C is 58, post menopausal, has various health issues and still pursues me 3-4x a week.

She uses progesterone cream and coconut oil (occasionally) but she lusts after me, loves me and isn't afraid of doing what it takes to prove it.


----------



## oldshirt

...cont from above.....

The reason a number of us posters get down on these doormats that do nothing but maybe whine and pout is because when the W's sexual response nosedives, if the H continues to rub her feet, bring home the bacon, change her oil, nanny the children and be a maid to the house - nothing changes. 

She assumes all is well and accepts if not actually appreciates that he has become a herbivore and eunuch and she appreciates having a roommate helping with the bills and appreciates having the live-in maid and nanny. 

He ceases to be a "man" in her eyes and women are only attracted to men (except lesbians which are attracted to real women. They are not attracted to eunuchs either)

So men standing up for their sexuality and the sexuality of the marriage is a very critical piece of this puzzle regardless of the root cause. 

If they keep quiet and do nothing - nothing changes. The marriage remains sexless and the men eventually become resentful and embittered and will eventually cheat or leave or will turn inward to porn or into very unhealthy things like drugs, alcohol or completely check out of the relationship and delve into their own interests and pastimes (video games, sports etc)

If they whine and pout like little b1+ches, the women get more resentful and embittered and lose whatever little residual attraction and interest in sex they may have had left. 


And yes as @LeananSidhe stated, she may have gotten upset and angry and it may have rocked the boat and even made things worse in the initial stages if her H had immediately done what we have encouraged the doormats to do. I understand that. 

But silence is compliance and compliance is acceptance. Sometimes the boat has to be rocked before people see that it is filling up with water and will sink if definitive action is not taken. 

The men in these scenarios with hostile, vitreous, sex-hating harpies that haven't engaged in healthy sex in years if ever are doormats and eunuchs. 

They have helped create and supported that environment. 

When they write in to TAM whining that they haven't had sex in two years and that every time they lay a hand on their wife they get shoved away, there is very little that can be done to change the wife's behavior and attitude. If the men want to have a sex life some time in their remaining lifetimes, they will need to go down to the back corner shelf of the basement and scrounge up that jar that their balls are being stored in and find a way to reattach them.


----------



## TJW

oldshirt said:


> Sex for them serves a purpose of getting a supportive man, getting a home and children and then once those things have been accomplished, the need for sexuality is done for them and they turn off the sex spigot but yet many feel entitled to a lifetime of the other benefits. (…...kind of like Congress here in the US LOL)


Not only are they entitled to a lifetime of the other benefits, but a lifetime in which their husband is expected to remain celibate, never look at porn, never make any remarks about how other women look, even shift their eyes to avoid looking at them for more than 500 milliseconds.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, where the sex spigot is either off completely, or is corroded nearly shut so that nothing more than a trickle of water ever comes through it, and what little is actually delivered is delivered as a result of "pity" or "duty"..... 

THEY are allowed to make comments "in code" about other men, cat calls, give admiring looks. and indulge themselves in fantasy about men they have only seen on television, and who have not made even the slightest effort toward their support. They are allowed "implied conparison" of these men to their husbands, and convey the message to their husbands that they would fall upon their asses, spread their legs, and thoroughly provide every favor because they WANT to, and most likely wouldn't even make the guy use a condom.


----------



## oldshirt

TJW said:


> Not only are they entitled to a lifetime of the other benefits, but a lifetime in which their husband is expected to remain celibate, never look at porn, never make any remarks about how other women look, even shift their eyes to avoid looking at them for more than 500 milliseconds.
> 
> Meanwhile, back at the ranch, where the sex spigot is either off completely, or is corroded nearly shut so that nothing more than a trickle of water ever comes through it, and what little is actually delivered is delivered as a result of "pity" or "duty".....
> 
> THEY are allowed to make comments "in code" about other men, cat calls, give admiring looks. and indulge themselves in fantasy about men they have only seen on television, and who have not made even the slightest effort toward their support. They are allowed "implied conparison" of these men to their husbands, and convey the message to their husbands that they would fall upon their asses, spread their legs, and thoroughly provide every favor because they WANT to, and most likely wouldn't even make the guy use a condom.


The thing that some of us try to get across to guys in this situation is that, no, these women are *NOT* entitled to a lifetime of marital benefits if a key component of the marriage is missing. 

This is where men need to keep their balls out of the mason jar and out of the basement and keep them firmly attached. 

Be the guy your wife (women in general) would cheat with, not cheat on. 

I'm not condoning adultery or saying that anyone should do that of course. I am saying be a sexual man and own your sexuality and your masculinity and do not put your balls on the shelf for anyone.

It's fine and dandy to marry a woman and be completely exclusive to her sexually and it's great to rub her feet and to support her and coparent and share equally in tending a home and family with her and even to change her oil and change her flat tires and kill all the spiders in the house...……… provided she respects you, desires you and lays you like tile. 

If she doesn't, it is what it is and it's sad. But the entitlement to the other benefits and the assumed exclusivity and the assumed lifelong commitment is null and void. 

There is no reason that any man or woman in today's western society should live in misery and despair being yoked to a disrespectful, unappreciative, self-serving spouse that does not love, appreciate and desire them. 


Yes, you may have to sell the house and move. Yes, you may have to get some new furniture and you will have to divvy up the bank accounts and you may not see your young children 24/7 and you may have to pay some child support and possibly even spousal support. But all of those are either temporary, or replaceable. It can be done if you so choose it.


----------



## LeananSidhe

oldshirt said:


> ...cont from above.....
> 
> The reason a number of us posters get down on these doormats that do nothing but maybe whine and pout is because when the W's sexual response nosedives, if the H continues to rub her feet, bring home the bacon, change her oil, nanny the children and be a maid to the house - nothing changes.
> 
> She assumes all is well and accepts if not actually appreciates that he has become a herbivore and eunuch and she appreciates having a roommate helping with the bills and appreciates having the live-in maid and nanny.
> 
> He ceases to be a "man" in her eyes and women are only attracted to men (except lesbians which are attracted to real women. They are not attracted to eunuchs either)
> 
> So men standing up for their sexuality and the sexuality of the marriage is a very critical piece of this puzzle regardless of the root cause.
> 
> If they keep quiet and do nothing - nothing changes. The marriage remains sexless and the men eventually become resentful and embittered and will eventually cheat or leave or will turn inward to porn or into very unhealthy things like drugs, alcohol or completely check out of the relationship and delve into their own interests and pastimes (video games, sports etc)
> 
> If they whine and pout like little b1+ches, the women get more resentful and embittered and lose whatever little residual attraction and interest in sex they may have had left.
> 
> 
> And yes as @LeananSidhe stated, she may have gotten upset and angry and it may have rocked the boat and even made things worse in the initial stages if her H had immediately done what we have encouraged the doormats to do. I understand that.
> 
> But silence is compliance and compliance is acceptance. Sometimes the boat has to be rocked before people see that it is filling up with water and will sink if definitive action is not taken.
> 
> The men in these scenarios with hostile, vitreous, sex-hating harpies that haven't engaged in healthy sex in years if ever are doormats and eunuchs.
> 
> They have helped create and supported that environment.
> 
> When they write in to TAM whining that they haven't had sex in two years and that every time they lay a hand on their wife they get shoved away, there is very little that can be done to change the wife's behavior and attitude. If the men want to have a sex life some time in their remaining lifetimes, they will need to go down to the back corner shelf of the basement and scrounge up that jar that their balls are being stored in and find a way to reattach them.


This is worded in a way that actually makes me understand it more. I think I’m naturally defensive of these women because I feel like I’ve been in their shoes when actually I haven’t, I guess. I really can’t imagine going months or especially years without sex. Even when I felt like I didn’t enjoy it, I still knew it was important. I keep wanting to praise my husband’s love and patience...but I was still having sex with him fairly regularly (once a week) and still letting him know that I loved him and that my lack of desire wasn’t his fault. I think I need to stop looking at myself as the same as these other women. 

In the same thought, my husband wasn’t the same as these men either. He wasn’t being a doormat. He was being a good husband to his wife who was letting him know that she still loved him and cared about his needs. 

So maybe I need to just sit down and shut up. 🙂


----------



## BluesPower

LeananSidhe said:


> This is worded in a way that actually makes me understand it more. I think I’m naturally defensive of these women because I feel like I’ve been in their shoes when actually I haven’t, I guess. I really can’t imagine going months or especially years without sex. Even when I felt like I didn’t enjoy it, I still knew it was important. I keep wanting to praise my husband’s love and patience...but I was still having sex with him fairly regularly (once a week) and still letting him know that I loved him and that my lack of desire wasn’t his fault. I think I need to stop looking at myself as the same as these other women.
> 
> In the same thought, my husband wasn’t the same as these men either. He wasn’t being a doormat. He was being a good husband to his wife who was letting him know that she still loved him and cared about his needs.
> 
> So maybe I need to just sit down and shut up. 🙂


I assure you that no one here wants you to sit down and shut up. 

Instead, I would like for you and other people to see that you did it the right way, and you worked though the issues that you were having. 

You should understand how you were different and how you did the right thing, and you should also understand that you could help others with your story and your perspective. 

And maybe, the next time your GF's joke about their husband and not loving them or having sex with them, you could find a way to tell them how wrong you think they are and you find their behavior is wrong. 

Then you might actually be able to help some of these people have as happy a marriage as you do...


----------



## LeananSidhe

BluesPower said:


> LeananSidhe said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is worded in a way that actually makes me understand it more. I think I’m naturally defensive of these women because I feel like I’ve been in their shoes when actually I haven’t, I guess. I really can’t imagine going months or especially years without sex. Even when I felt like I didn’t enjoy it, I still knew it was important. I keep wanting to praise my husband’s love and patience...but I was still having sex with him fairly regularly (once a week) and still letting him know that I loved him and that my lack of desire wasn’t his fault. I think I need to stop looking at myself as the same as these other women.
> 
> In the same thought, my husband wasn’t the same as these men either. He wasn’t being a doormat. He was being a good husband to his wife who was letting him know that she still loved him and cared about his needs.
> 
> So maybe I need to just sit down and shut up. 🙂
> 
> 
> 
> I assure you that no one here wants you to sit down and shut up.
> 
> Instead, I would like for you and other people to see that you did it the right way, and you worked though the issues that you were having.
> 
> You should understand how you were different and how you did the right thing, and you should also understand that you could help others with your story and your perspective.
> 
> And maybe, the next time your GF's joke about their husband and not loving them or having sex with them, you could find a way to tell them how wrong you think they are and you find their behavior is wrong.
> 
> Then you might actually be able to help some of these people have as happy a marriage as you do...
Click to expand...

I didn’t mean “sit down and shut up” in a derogatory way. Just that I need to stop taking it personal. I keep seeing myself and my husband in these posts but that’s not correct because we really weren’t in a “sexless marriage”. 

Sadly, my GFs have never taken any of my advice. They still put the blame on their husbands. They constantly ask me how I found such a great husband but tune me out when I try to tell them that I try to be great for him too.


----------



## In Absentia

BluesPower said:


> Yes she if fine with you getting sex else where as long as you continue to pay the bills and give her a comfortable life.



She works... she doesn't need my money. She is always been independent. Maybe she would be a bit less well-off, but she knows she can survive without me. And she is prepared to do that. I agree that she hasn't really put any significant effort in our marriage and it's very frustrating. So, no more sexless marriage. At least she's come clean now...


----------



## In Absentia

ConanHub said:


> Mrs. C is 58, post menopausal, has various health issues and still pursues me 3-4x a week.
> 
> She uses progesterone cream and coconut oil (occasionally) but she lusts after me, loves me and isn't afraid of doing what it takes to prove it.


Well, that's the difference... I know my wife doesn't love me any more. It's clear from her behaviour... I just wish she'd told me in my face. Because when I ask, she says she loves me and she has said so the last few times we had sex before she decided she didn't want sex anymore.


----------



## ConanHub

In Absentia said:


> Well, that's the difference... I know my wife doesn't love me any more. It's clear from her behaviour... I just wish she'd told me in my face. Because when I ask, she says she loves me and she has said so the last few times we had sex before she decided she didn't want sex anymore.


Sorry about your situation. Hope you move on smoothly and learn. You've had enough time wasted I'd say.


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## In Absentia

ConanHub said:


> Sorry about your situation. Hope you move on smoothly and learn. You've had enough time wasted I'd say.


I have learnt alright! :smile2: At least I can say I have tried...


----------



## uhtred

I don't know any way to estimate how many women "trapped" their husbands, how many have medical / hormonal / drug issues, how many have husbands who are (physically or in behavior) unattractive, and how many have low natural libidos. 

I know my wife really doesn't know why she doesn't want sex. She sort of feels like she should want it. Claims to enjoy it when it happens, talks about wanting it, but doesn't. She isn't on any medication (as far as I know) but there could be some medical issue. 

I think that there *are* a lot of attractive, well off men who do lots of things for their spouses, and are still turned down. Just as there are a lot of attractive women who will do anything for their partners in bed, and who are also turned down. These sorts of relationships can fall into the trap where the high desire person keeps trying to do more, and the low desire person finds that they don't need to do anything. It may not be intentional, but its so easy for it to happen. 

For my wife, sex is something she can have any time she wants, any activity she wants. Its "unfair", but since I actively enjoy pleasing her, its would seem strange to withhold something I also enjoy just to force her to do what I want. (actually the last few months things have improved dramatically - as they do sometimes). 







LeananSidhe said:


> snip
> 
> I know that there are lots of women who don’t care about sex, that have trapped their husbands or whatever. But I really feel like the majority just don’t know why they feel the way they do and wish things were better but don’t know how to fix it.
> 
> We only hear one side of the story here. We have know idea what’s really happening in the homes and bedrooms. I was just telling my husband that I should start sending my single friends to TAM because there seems to be an odd number of “attractive and well off men who help around the house all the time and give massages and gifts and do everything for their partners who in turn don’t care and tell them to go away....Yeah, ok.


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## BarbedFenceRider

{Hello, I am 10 years older than you, but when I was in my late twenties, I started really hating to have sex. Not all the time, but most of the time. Now I could go the rest of my life without doing it. If I feel an urge, I can just take care of it myself. I don't need some guy (my husband) pounding away at me, messing up my hair, trying to talk sexy (which just annoys me), or making the same old approach..one boob, then the other, then we're off. I especially hate it after I have taken a bath, dried my hair...I feel so good and he wants to ruin it by having sex! I just want to go to bed and sleep. I can't tell you how many times over the last year, I have purposely stayed up watching tv in the living room until he falls asleep, so I can climb in bed without be bothered. I even make a point to sneek quietly in my room so I don't wake him up. Then I try and beat him out of bed in the morning. It is very tiresome. Sometimes, I just flat give in for the sake of an argument. Don't get me wrong, he is good at it, but I just don't care for it. If I had a list of priorities of 1 to 10, it would be number 11. I see all these books on how to increase your sex drive, but nothing on how do decrease it (for him). It is like the whole world it telling you that you have to have and want to have sex all the time, or something is wrong with you. Well, I am tired of it. Why is it so wrong to not want to do it. Where does it say in your marrige vows that you have to be a sex slave at your partners mercy. I love being married, but I hate feeling obligated to have sex all the time. I keep wishing he would develop ED and I'd be a lot happier.}


Until I read this post from the link OP had....I had hope for the majority of these cases. But not now. Remember, She ^is ND. Sexless. And looks at it as being a "sex slave"...

Ugly.


----------



## PaulB

Tatsuhiko said:


> Love the shallowness of the bungee jumping metaphor. Sure, you shouldn't force someone to bungee jump, and they don't need therapy if they refuse to bungee jump. That makes sense. But similarly, no-one needs to be forced into being married either. And when the marriage is falling apart, as it probably is, why bother with MC? Divorce is "normal", and "everyone is different."



Lots of men would say being forced to wash dishes or spend time with in-laws is like being forced to bungee jump against your will. Husbands are ridiculed for not wanting to do things they aren't in the mood for. Sex is somehow on a separate, elevated shelf for wives who aren't in the mood. 


If a woman is married to a good man, it's not oppressive to say they should be having semi-regular sex whether in the mood or not. At the least pop a boob out and give him a handjob if you really aren't in the mood for penetration sometimes. 99.997956% of men would NOT get married if regular sex were not part of the deal.


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## 269370

Andy1001 said:


> I only like one type of cheese and I always get it at the same place.
> 
> If that source ever started rationing or cut off supply altogether I wouldn’t have any hesitation in mentioning that there are lots of other sources for cheese.



We are not talking about the French Formage du Knob variety?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Andy1001

inmyprime said:


> We are not talking about the French Formage du Knob variety?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Once my local cheese shop ran out of my favorite so I wrecked the place.
There was de brie everywhere.


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## happiness27

Livvie said:


> I read many pages of the posts. Wow!!!!
> 
> Many of these women want to be asexual in their marriages, without negative judgment. WITHOUT negative judgment or consequences!! They completely fail to understand that marriage is by definition a sexual relationship. They truly don't understand why sex is viewed as an important part of marriage and are very very mad that it is.
> 
> That's the part I don't understand, at all, how on Earth they got the idea that marriage doesn't imply a sexual relationship.
> 
> These women want a friendship/roommate/companion, no sex.
> 
> Anyone have any idea the genesis of their mindset that they should entitled to marriage when all they are going to provide in the relationship is opposite sex friendship??


Why is it just women we are talking about? Any women been around men or men on here whose testosterone level is low? Yeah. Same mind set - no sex is just fine. 

There's something about testosterone...


----------



## happiness27

PaulB said:


> Lots of men would say being forced to wash dishes or spend time with in-laws is like being forced to bungee jump against your will. Husbands are ridiculed for not wanting to do things they aren't in the mood for. Sex is somehow on a separate, elevated shelf for wives who aren't in the mood.
> 
> 
> If a woman is married to a good man, it's not oppressive to say they should be having semi-regular sex whether in the mood or not. At the least pop a boob out and give him a handjob if you really aren't in the mood for penetration sometimes. 99.997956% of men would NOT get married if regular sex were not part of the deal.


I'm sorry but coerced sex as a requirement is not a happy relationship. If sex is a deal-breaking point for a partner, they should re-design the relationship or end it. 

As for "being forced to wash dishes or spend time with in-laws" - what decade are we living in? 

Guys, creating mood-lifting scenarios is also a part of creating an exciting relationship. Helpful hint: Expecting your wife to pop a boob out and give you a hand job while you watch football and eat Cheetos on the couch isn't a mood lifter.


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## 269370

happiness27 said:


> l
> 
> 
> 
> Guys, creating mood-lifting scenarios is also a part of creating an exciting relationship. Helpful hint: Expecting your wife to pop a boob out and give you a hand job while you watch football and eat Cheetos on the couch isn't a mood lifter.



Depends who’s playing.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## happiness27

inmyprime said:


> Depends who’s playing.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Right?


----------



## TJW

PaulB said:


> Lots of men would say being forced to wash dishes or spend time with in-laws is like being forced to bungee jump against your will. Husbands are ridiculed for not wanting to do things they aren't in the mood for.


Not only ridiculed, they are taught that doing these things is the "ticket" to sex. Nothing could be farther from the truth. However, it does sell books, CDs, and make speaking appointments. 

There are guys who score every other night, have no in-laws, never wash dishes, never buy any greeting cards on holidays. They have simply won the genetic lottery.

Guys who have won the genetic lottery need never worry about any of these things. Every month will bring a couple of available women their way with absolutely no effort on their part. They don't even have to buy the drinks.

Guys who have not won the genetic lottery can't score, even if they are a professional dish-washer. And, if they do finally score, the woman they score will only want them for dish-washing, changing diapers, and providing financially. Oh, let me not forget sperm donation.




PaulB said:


> 99.997956% of men would NOT get married if regular sex were not part of the deal.


If only somebody we trusted told us that marriage would not result in regular sex. We would all make the judgment that marriage has nothing "in it" for us, and avoid it completely.

Oh, and BTW.....I tried diaper-changing, dish-washing, flowers, unexpected gifts, and spending time with in-laws. Didn't work. So I quit.


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## oldshirt

happiness27 said:


> Why is it just women we are talking about? Any women been around men or men on here whose testosterone level is low? Yeah. Same mind set - no sex is just fine.
> 
> There's something about testosterone...


There are men that are sexual duds and have completely lost (or never had) their virility. There are men that are fine plopped on the couch watching football and really don't lift a finger to score and are good with that.

Some even blow off their wife's advances if their wife wants a little sum'm-sum'm. 

But I don't think there are any men that 'HATE" having sex with their wives and have the degree of disgust and distaste and resentment and outright hostility that some women do. 

As a little experiment, I typed in "I hate sex with my wife" just to see if there were any equivalent threads from the male point of view and there really isn't. 

When you search, "I hate sex with my husband" you get countless pages and posts and articles etc. 

So there are men that are duds and men that have no interest. But there really is no abject hostility and resentment and vitriol that women have.


----------



## LeananSidhe

Well, I’m very glad that my husband is smart enough to change his kid’s diapers and wash the dishes he helps dirty. He also likes surprising me with gifts and showering me with compliments. 

I don’t think that’s really what makes me want to have sex with him...but I’m sure it doesn’t hurt. I would not stay with him if he didn’t do those things.


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## john117

Now that I'm single (separated) I wash dishes. Once a week . Thankfully the girls live nearby and cook casseroles for ole Dad... 

No energy for dating or even swiping left or whatever... I call it my gap year.


----------



## sokillme

TJW said:


> Not only ridiculed, they are taught that doing these things is the "ticket" to sex. Nothing could be farther from the truth. However, it does sell books, CDs, and make speaking appointments.
> 
> There are guys who score every other night, have no in-laws, never wash dishes, never buy any greeting cards on holidays. They have simply won the genetic lottery.
> 
> Guys who have won the genetic lottery need never worry about any of these things. Every month will bring a couple of available women their way with absolutely no effort on their part. They don't even have to buy the drinks.
> 
> Guys who have not won the genetic lottery can't score, even if they are a professional dish-washer. And, if they do finally score, the woman they score will only want them for dish-washing, changing diapers, and providing financially. Oh, let me not forget sperm donation.
> 
> If only somebody we trusted told us that marriage would not result in regular sex. We would all make the judgment that marriage has nothing "in it" for us, and avoid it completely.
> 
> Oh, and BTW.....I tried diaper-changing, dish-washing, flowers, unexpected gifts, and spending time with in-laws. Didn't work. So I quit.


Maybe you just married an *******. I have to say your thinking here seems to be part of the problem, and maybe you are acknowledging that.

I mean lots of men do all that stuff and have good sexlifes. Thing is they don't do that stuff to barter for sex though, sure it doesn't hurt but mostly because it gives you both more free time. Plus if you treat her like your Mother she is going to look at you like you are her kid. I mean you should do that because that is the courteous thing you do when you are in a life partnership with someone. I don't get the resentment. It seems codependent. A wife should want to have sex with you because she wants to be intimate with the person she loves. And a husband should want to help out around the house because you love your partner and want to share in the responsibilities of your family. 

This whole genetic lottery thing is such a silly extreme view of the world. Redpill much? Lets deal with reality where 99% of the world live. Most people are not Supermodels and Rock Stars and just average attraction level. And if they are not then can do things to improve that, yes even plastic surgery. I mean damn, it sure would have been nice to be born George Clooney. Didn't happen. I still got a very pretty wife, and she didn't get to marry George Clooney. I didn't get to marry Salma Hayek, we both seem fine with that. Why spend any more time thinking about that when you are in the same boat as everyone else who is not George Clooney. I really don't believe this whole, you have to be 6 foot, model looks to get an attractive mate. I just see TOO MANY examples were that isn't true. 

My point is if we are all going to rate our lives to Mick Jagger's sexlife, then we are all going to fall short. Again why Redpill is just stupid.


----------



## sokillme

happiness27 said:


> Guys, creating mood-lifting scenarios is also a part of creating an exciting relationship. Helpful hint: Expecting your wife to pop a boob out and give you a hand job while you watch football and eat Cheetos on the couch isn't a mood lifter.


Honestly having an emotional conversation when you are tired and had a long day at work isn't also. That's kind of the point of love isn't it? There are many times when I do stuff for my wife that doesn't really touch me or is a "mood lifter" the same way it does her but I do it precisely because it does her. So why not pop out a boob out every once and a while and give a hand job while he is watching football. Why not take your wife to the ballet if that is her thing. What's the big deal?

This is what I hate about this kind of battle of the sexes crap. Yes we think differently and have different priorities lots of the time, so what. The point is, things in marriage yes EVEN SEX at times should be given freely without any thought of what's in it for me. That is part of being a good spouse and showing love. As soon as every (highlight the word every) actions is rated by what your reward is for it you are starting to get too selfish and your marriage is going to suffer.


----------



## Herschel

Being with someone you don’t want to **** is broken. Seriously, life is too short to not want to do the most important thing there is to do with the person you love. 

I have been seeing a woman for a year now. There was a meme out there that I saw that said, “a guy doesn’t know what a lot of sex is until he finds a woman who wants a lot of sex.” It is true. It is all of the time. It takes like one second to get her started and even after a year, it can be 3 times a day.

I say all of his not to brag, but often, I just am too tired or don’t want to. Somehow I can, but I am really sore or just want to finish putting up her ceiling or installing her floor and she stops me. My point is, I do it every time. Not cause I want to get my rocks off, but because I love when she does. How can you be with someone who you don’t want to see get off because of you? Broken.


----------



## sokillme

oldshirt said:


> There are men that are sexual duds and have completely lost (or never had) their virility. There are men that are fine plopped on the couch watching football and really don't lift a finger to score and are good with that.
> 
> Some even blow off their wife's advances if their wife wants a little sum'm-sum'm.
> 
> But I don't think there are any men that 'HATE" having sex with their wives and have the degree of disgust and distaste and resentment and outright hostility that some women do.
> 
> As a little experiment, I typed in "I hate sex with my wife" just to see if there were any equivalent threads from the male point of view and there really isn't.
> 
> When you search, "I hate sex with my husband" you get countless pages and posts and articles etc.
> 
> So there are men that are duds and men that have no interest. But there really is no abject hostility and resentment and vitriol that women have.


Part of this is because our equipment is different. It's hard for a man to passively have sex with a women if he really doesn't want to. I do think if he really hates or resents his wife he probably will have a problem getting it up to even try to have sex with her. Like say she cheats on him, I think lots of guys are done at that point, not all but lots. A better comparable example would be if she has let herself go for instance like gotten morbidly overweight. He isn't going to hate to have sex with her because he isn't going to want to have sex with her at all. Type in "my wife let herself go" or "my wife got fat and I am not attracted to her" and you will see the same kind of disgust, distaste, resentment, and hostility. The difference is women can still passively have sex even if their body doesn't want to.


----------



## Buddy400

TJW said:


> There are guys who score every other night, have no in-laws, never wash dishes, never buy any greeting cards on holidays. They have simply won the genetic lottery.


While the genetic lottery has something to do with it............

I think it has much more to do with whether your wife is a giver or a taker.

Givers will give even when it doesn't make sense. Takers won't give even when it DOES make sense.

I'm using "giver" in the sense of selfless, not as in "giving" sex.


----------



## PaulB

happiness27 said:


> I'm sorry but coerced sex as a requirement is not a happy relationship. If sex is a deal-breaking point for a partner, they should re-design the relationship or end it.


Again, why is sex on some separate, higher shelf for you? As partners and parents and friends, we are coerced into doing things all the time. And, it's not uncommon for us to sometimes enjoy the things we were coerced into doing. Sometimes I'm not in the mood to read my kid a bedtime story. I get coerced into it and usually am glad I was. There is also a habit element to sex. My wife can get out of the habit, so to speak. She still enjoys sex, but if we go several days without it (2 preschool aged kids) it's like her sex drive wanes. It's not uncommon that I talk her into sex, she enjoys it, and ends up in a better mood the rest of the day. 

A sexless marriage is not a happy relationship. Why do so many women see it as an option men should legally be expected to live in?




happiness27 said:


> As for "being forced to wash dishes or spend time with in-laws" - what decade are we living in?


So men not wanting to do dishes and not enjoying his in-laws is antiquated, backwards thinking...and choosing to deprive your spouse of sex is progressive???




happiness27 said:


> Guys, creating mood-lifting scenarios is also a part of creating an exciting relationship. Helpful hint: Expecting your wife to pop a boob out and give you a hand job while you watch football and eat Cheetos on the couch isn't a mood lifter.


You're not talking to a group of 22 year old husband-novices in here. You're not acknowledging what many men are saying. 
We go to work every day. We help around the house. We change diapers. We bring home flowers on occasion for no reason. We offer foot and back rubs. We know well about creating the mood. Stop assuming women cut off sex as a response to insensitive, neglectful husbands.

Your comment about watching football and eating Cheetos probably says a lot about your prejudices.


----------



## Personal

sokillme said:


> oldshirt said:
> 
> 
> 
> The rejected party will say that their W will react with anger and counter attack with "you-only-care-about-sex!" when they try to discuss it with them.
> 
> 
> 
> The answer to that is, I obviously care about you because I am still with you though you are depriving me of the most basic of requirements in a normal healthy marriage. But I, like most healthy people DO CARE about sex. You seem to not care about it at all.
Click to expand...

I think your answer is a sexual turn off, and is counterproductive if one wants sex.

My answer to; "you only care about sex", "you only want me for sex" and "you only want to use me for sex" has always been and will always be "yes" without further explanation.

The only exception to saying "yes" would be, when I no longer wanted to have sex with them. Which in that instance I would say something like your answer, knowing full well that statements like that are sexual turn offs.


----------



## farsidejunky

Even considering sex in an obligatory sense is the ticket to dry panties and soft peckers. My wife should want regular sex with me, not feel obliged to. 

I would rather take care of myself then think my wife is biting the pillow and biding her time. 

If she doesn't want regular sex and there isn't a medical reason she is aggressively pursuing a remedy for, then any and all needs (acts of service, words of affirmation) stop. 

After all...I wouldn't want to feel coerced into something I don't want to do.

And...

No means no...right?

"Never make someone a priority when all you are to them is an option."

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Wazza

Great,the genders are fighting about sex again. 

I agree that no sex would raise questions about the future of the marriage, but I also find it odd that a bunch of guys can read women saying they hate having sex and basically reply with “suck it up”. To me sex is about shared intimacy, not someone being expected to provide orifices on demand.


----------



## Buddy400

Wazza said:


> Great,the genders are fighting about sex again.
> 
> I agree that no sex would raise questions about the future of the marriage, but I also find it odd that a bunch of guys can read women saying they hate having sex and basically reply with “suck it up”. To me sex is about shared intimacy, not someone being expected to provide orifices on demand.


When I read stories by women who hate sex but love their husbands, care about the fact that he's miserable and are desperately hoping to find a way to regain their lost libido; I'm very sad for them and wish them and their husband's the best.

When I read stories by women who hate sex, can't understand why their husband is making such a big deal about it and don't care that it makes him unhappy; that's a different story.


----------



## PaulB

LeananSidhe said:


> Well, I’m very glad that my husband is smart enough to change his kid’s diapers and wash the dishes he helps dirty. He also likes surprising me with gifts and showering me with compliments.
> 
> I don’t think that’s really what makes me want to have sex with him...but I’m sure it doesn’t hurt. I would not stay with him if he didn’t do those things.



Maybe he does all those things because he appreciates your participation in a healthy sex life? 


The whole notion of sex being reserved as a reward for good boys when they do positive things is so skewed. That's like one partner deciding to stop going to work because the other partner isn't deserving of his/her financial contributions. God knows there are days when we aren't in the mood to go to work but do so anyway because that's part of the responsibility of a committed relationship.




Wazza said:


> I agree that no sex would raise questions about the future of the marriage, but I also find it odd that a bunch of guys can read women saying they hate having sex and basically reply with “suck it up”. To me sex is about shared intimacy, not someone being expected to provide orifices on demand.


Asking for a sex life that includes intimacy on a regular or semi-regular basis is not "providing orifices on demand." No more than a wife asking her husband to get a job to pay bills is forcing him into indentured servitude. I don't think anyone is talking about instances where a husband says he wants sex now--give it to me now, woman. We're talking about men who are married to women who want to have sex with their husbands very infrequently or never. It's a lifestyle--not a moment of rejection one evening.


----------



## azimuth

oldshirt said:


> There are men that are sexual duds and have completely lost (or never had) their virility. There are men that are fine plopped on the couch watching football and really don't lift a finger to score and are good with that.
> 
> Some even blow off their wife's advances if their wife wants a little sum'm-sum'm.
> 
> *But I don't think there are any men that 'HATE" having sex with their wives and have the degree of disgust and distaste and resentment and outright hostility that some women do.
> *
> As a little experiment, I typed in "I hate sex with my wife" just to see if there were any equivalent threads from the male point of view and there really isn't.
> 
> When you search, "I hate sex with my husband" you get countless pages and posts and articles etc.
> 
> So there are men that are duds and men that have no interest. But there really is no abject hostility and resentment and vitriol that women have.


I think mine did. It took a ton of analyzing on my part and looking back over the years for red flags that I missed. He was raised in a super religious family. Sex was bad, and women who enjoyed sex were ****s. I initiated about 80% of the time, and toward the end I was only initiator. After his orgasm he wouldn't cuddle at all, he would go to the sink and clean up immediately, then get dressed fully and go to the living room and watch tv or read to wind down. I was welcome to sit next to him on the couch, but he would not come back to the bed after sex with me. He would not engage with me. I would always follow him to the couch and snuggle next to him. He wouldn't react sexually. Lots of times I tried for a round two, but he would push my hands away while keeping his concentration on his book. Sex would happen a maximum of once per week, no matter how much I tried for more. I know he was keeping track somewhere because it was always just once a week, and several times we went a month without even though I was always trying.

He was really into hobbies, especially reading sci-fi/fantasy genre books. He was very angry at anyone or anything that interfered with his hobbies. One of the last straws in our marriage was one night he was reading a hardback of one of his books. This particular book was massively huge. I kept snuggling him while he was reading, and kissing him on the neck and trying to initiate sex. He got angry and threw the (huge) book across the room and said "Fine! I won't ever read my books again. Will that make you happy?" That was a blow to me. I never told him to stop reading. I always encouraged his hobbies. During that argument, he also angrily packed up his PS4 and XBOX saying that sex with me was going to be his hobby, that's what I wanted. I said he was being a martyr which opened up a whole new level of arguing. But that night I felt like he was gaslighting me. It was like he turned it around to where I was saying he had to make a choice between me and his hobbies and I never, ever did that. But he made me feel like I did. I think this goes back to how his mom was super critical of him and hyperfocused on him. He saw me as the mom-figure, which also makes me believe he never really got to know me. But he did all that to avoid sex. Instead of simply not reading for 20min, we spent over three hours arguing and him packing up consoles, making me feel like **** for wanting to have sex with my husband!

I think he saw sex as bad in a religious sense, and it was also a betrayal to his family. He's really, really close to his family and they hated me for taking him away. He didn't like sex with me because it bonded him to me and away from his family, away from his hobbies and his personal identity. He was also a former athlete and really competitive, and because I wanted sex so much, denying me was like he was winning and I was losing. He also had an affair two years into the marriage. So basically our entire marriage was a battle and sex was the weapon he used. It was really, really sad, and it was so not necessary.

I don't think men would readily admit that they hate having sex with their wives. They would be accused of being crazy, not masculine, not virile, etc. But I think men are just as susceptible to these feelings as women. I have a high drive. I'm like a teenage boy and it's never gone away. I know how it feels when your spouse denies you and it's excruciating. It's the worst torture to endure because you know they love you on some level but they won't share this with you for a variety of reason and hangups. They aren't reasonable or rational and they're incredibly selfish and entitled.

ETA: I did not get fat or let myself go. I also pursued him fully from day one and accepted that I was the driver in the relationship. I knew there could possibly be a price to pay, that he wouldn't have ever chosen me, and it turned out that was the case. Some men would not marry a person they weren't really into but he did.


----------



## Wazza

Buddy400 said:


> When I read stories by women who hate sex but love their husbands, care about the fact that he's miserable and are desperately hoping to find a way to regain their lost libido; I'm very sad for them and wish them and their husband's the best.
> 
> When I read stories by women who hate sex, can't understand why their husband is making such a big deal about it and don't care that it makes him unhappy; that's a different story.


Mostly agree, though I have learned that my wife, at least, sees all of this very differently from how I do. I’m sure she doesn’t understand what makes sex so important to me. She just has to accept that it is. 

What’s important is that we find common ground where we can be happy. To be honest I find the thought of sex that she hates pretty distasteful. Sex is important, and I will not accept celibacy, but there are other reasons I like having her in my life besides sex. 

I think I have accepted that there will always be a degree of sexual tension in relationships. If I am looking for reasons to pick a fight, I’ll usually be able to find one there. I’d rather not fight unnecessarily.


----------



## LeananSidhe

PaulB said:


> Maybe he does all those things because he appreciates your participation in a healthy sex life?


Nope. He has always done those things, even when sex was not as often. Why wouldn’t he? Again, his kids and his dishes. I understand the little gifts and romantic gestures eventually dying out in a sexless marriage but the idea that a man shouldn’t have to help take care of his own children if he’s not getting sex is pretty ridiculous.


----------



## farsidejunky

LeananSidhe said:


> Nope. He has always done those things, even when sex was not as often. Why wouldn’t he? Again, his kids and his dishes. I understand the little gifts and romantic gestures eventually dying out in a sexless marriage but the idea that a man shouldn’t have to help take care of his own children if he’s not getting sex is pretty ridiculous.


I think it is important to clarify my earlier post by illustrating yours.

The ceasing of meeting needs does not include picking up after myself, taking care of our son, or any other things that are responsibilities.

It is things like feeding her dogs when I am the first one up, opening jars, squashing spiders, putting lotion on her back, being present for her in the evenings (which she wants more than most things), etc. It is things I do solely for her.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## LeananSidhe

farsidejunky said:


> LeananSidhe said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nope. He has always done those things, even when sex was not as often. Why wouldn’t he? Again, his kids and his dishes. I understand the little gifts and romantic gestures eventually dying out in a sexless marriage but the idea that a man shouldn’t have to help take care of his own children if he’s not getting sex is pretty ridiculous.
> 
> 
> 
> I think it is important to clarify my earlier post by illustrating yours.
> 
> The ceasing of meeting needs does not include picking up after myself, taking care of our son, or any other things that are responsibilities.
> 
> It is things like feeding her dogs when I am the first one up, opening jars, squashing spiders, putting lotion on her back, being present for her in the evenings (which she wants more than most things), etc. It is things I do solely for her.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

And I understand that. 🙂

I was referring to the post by someone that said he stopped changing diapers and doing dishes.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

Wazza said:


> Great,the genders are fighting about sex again.
> 
> I agree that no sex would raise questions about the future of the marriage, but I also find it odd that a bunch of guys can read women saying they hate having sex and basically reply with “suck it up”. To me sex is about shared intimacy, not someone being expected to provide orifices on demand.


But that's a given to all or most here. 

It's why do women expect to have all perks continue in a good marriage when they unilaterally decide no more sex. Or vice versa too.


----------



## Wazza

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> But that's a given to all or most here.
> 
> It's why do women expect to have all perks continue in a good marriage when they unilaterally decide no more sex. Or vice versa too.


So if a woman genuinely loathes sex should she still do it? How often, to what degree? At what point does the guy have a right to be upset? At what point is the guy no longer being laid like tile?


----------



## personofinterest

Wazza said:


> So if a woman genuinely loathes sex should she still do it? How often, to what degree? At what point does the guy have a right to be upset? At what point is the guy no longer being laid like tile?


If a woman loathes sex that much and her husband - who is normal - needs it....

Then no, she shouldn't force herself. BUT she should have the decency to be the one to leave and free him. No normal person gets married thinking sex will not be part of it. If you are the one not acting married, then you are the one who needs to file and end it.

But most of these women would rather starve their husbands and then make HIM the bad guy when he cannot take it anymore and leaves.

And the women who defend this kind of crappy wife are just as bad. Full stop.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

@Wazza, what POI just posted. I couldn't have said it any better.


----------



## BluesPower

Wazza said:


> So if a woman genuinely loathes sex should she still do it? How often, to what degree? At what point does the guy have a right to be upset? At what point is the guy no longer being laid like tile?


While I don't completely understand your point... I will take a stab at this...

Since most of this is about woman not wanting sex, I will tackle that side. 

You know, this could all be solved if the women in these situations had the courage to be honest. 

If they would just say, " I don't love you any more, I am not attracted to you any more, let's get divorced", then all of this conversation could all be over. 

Why some people don't understand that a romantic love situation USUALLY includes sex and the desire for sex by both parties. 

If you are not in love and not attracted then just say so, and we can call it quits..

Or is complete honesty just too much to ask? Or is it that these women like having their husband to provide and kill spiders but for nothing else, which I believe is generally the case.

But then that would just be to easy to do it that way????


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> @Wazza, what POI just posted. I couldn't have said it any better.


Bingo!


----------



## Wazza

personofinterest said:


> If a woman loathes sex that much and her husband - who is normal - needs it....
> 
> Then no, she shouldn't force herself. BUT she should have the decency to be the one to leave and free him. No normal person gets married thinking sex will not be part of it. If you are the one not acting married, then you are the one who needs to file and end it.
> 
> But most of these women would rather starve their husbands and then make HIM the bad guy when he cannot take it anymore and leaves.
> 
> And the women who defend this kind of crappy wife are just as bad. Full stop.


The point is that, to some extent, in some circumstances, loss of libido is normal. Your first paragraph seems to position this as totally on the woman.

My marriage has been through it, and over time improved things with none of the prescriptions here. But your advice in your second paragraph appears to be that my wife should have left me? Should we have talked about it first? The fact that I am still here represents my choice to work through things rather than leaving. Had I chosen to leave, of course that would have been my right.

I’m not saying it’s not a problem. I’m saying it’s more complex than this thread represents.


----------



## uhtred

That is a really difficult situation. IMHO: unless otherwise discussed, sex is assumed part of a marriage. If a woman knows she hates sex, she should make that clear before marriage. If she starts hating it later, then she has to has a discussion with her husband. He has the right then to ask for a divorce - no ones fault, she can't help how she feels, but he did not agree to a sexless marriage. Maybe she is OK with opening the marriage, and maybe that is OK with him.


Or put more simply: No one should feel that they have to have sex that they don't want, but no one should feel trapped in a marriage where they are not happy with their sex life. The person who doesn't want sex is free not to have it, but the other person is free to leave the marriage if they are unhappy. No blame to either 




Wazza said:


> So if a woman genuinely loathes sex should she still do it? How often, to what degree? At what point does the guy have a right to be upset? At what point is the guy no longer being laid like tile?


----------



## Wazza

BluesPower said:


> While I don't completely understand your point... I will take a stab at this...
> 
> Since most of this is about woman not wanting sex, I will tackle that side.
> 
> You know, this could all be solved if the women in these situations had the courage to be honest.
> 
> If they would just say, " I don't love you any more, I am not attracted to you any more, let's get divorced", then all of this conversation could all be over.
> 
> Why some people don't understand that a romantic love situation USUALLY includes sex and the desire for sex by both parties.
> 
> If you are not in love and not attracted then just say so, and we can call it quits..
> 
> Or is complete honesty just too much to ask? Or is it that these women like having their husband to provide and kill spiders but for nothing else, which I believe is generally the case.
> 
> But then that would just be to easy to do it that way????


The interesting thing about the linked thread that started this is that it gives you an unvarnished insight into how some women think. And there was a range of views. Most of them confronting. Most of them not what we would want to hear from our significant others.

A sexless marriage is a problem, and in the long term it’s probably not going to survive. But you have immediately equated no sex with no love. I don’t think it’s that simple. That’s what interests me about this thread. It’s a chance to dig more into things. 

It may well be the end point is divorce, but that is not a foregone conclusion. And I’d personally rather decide that’s what I want, rather than have it decided for me. 

What do you want? A wife who does it for you whenever wanted, even if she hates it? A wife who meets a specific minimum number of times, even if she hates it? A wife who leaves you the second attraction drops? 

All I’m really saying is it’s more complex.

I agree with you the starting point is honesty. Along with maybe a little ego stroking from time to time.


----------



## BluesPower

Wazza said:


> The point is that, to some extent, in some circumstances, loss of libido is normal. Your first paragraph seems to position this as totally on the woman.
> 
> My marriage has been through it, and over time improved things with none of the prescriptions here. But your advice in your second paragraph appears to be that my wife should have left me? Should we have talked about it first? The fact that I am still here represents my choice to work through things rather than leaving. Had I chosen to leave, of course that would have been my right.
> 
> I’m not saying it’s not a problem. I’m saying it’s more complex than this thread represents.


The thing is, this, in everyone of these threads that I have seen, people give the standard "Have an honest talk" advice. 

And I think anyone should try and do that, if they want their marriage. And you know, depending on how long you were out of the game, I am sure that she may have thought about leaving, or maybe not. 

The thing is every person is different, but unless people want to be celibate at some point they have to make a decision. 

That goes for men and woman. I have never dealt with this except for having women cry on my shoulder about their husbands not desiring them. 

In some respects I cannot even fathom this type of situation...


----------



## Holdingontoit

Wazza said:


> So if a woman genuinely loathes sex should she still do it? How often, to what degree? At what point does the guy have a right to be upset? At what point is the guy no longer being laid like tile?


If a woman genuinely loathes sex she should not do it. But she should be honest that she loathes it, and not pretend she is tired or not in the mood this moment or had a bad day. And if she loathes sex WITH HIM, but would love to have sex with her boss or the cute delivery driver, she should admit that also.

I think the guy has the right to be upset immediately upon discovering that his wife loathes sex. Maybe he doesn't leave right away. But it is to be expected that he won't be happy to hear it.

At what point does a woman have a right to be upset that her husband became disabled and can't work any longer? After a month or a year of going without an income? How about the tried and true "what if he comes home and announces that he loathes talking to her about her day, her friends, the kids, her plans for the future?" How long does she go without conversation before she is entitled to get upset?


----------



## BluesPower

Wazza said:


> A sexless marriage is a problem, and in the long term it’s probably not going to survive. But you have immediately equated no sex with no love. I don’t think it’s that simple. That’s what interests me about this thread. It’s a chance to dig more into things.


As far as this statement goes, I totally disagree. I am not now, nor will I ever be interested is romantic love with no sex. Not going to happen. 

And I do think it is that simple. I can have sex with someone I do not love, but I cannot be in love with someone that does not want to have sex.

And of course this includes the caveat the there is not REAL, PHYSICAL, issue that is causing the problem.


----------



## Wazza

BluesPower said:


> As far as this statement goes, I totally disagree. I am not now, nor will I ever be interested is romantic love with no sex. Not going to happen.
> 
> And I do think it is that simple. I can have sex with someone I do not love, but I cannot be in love with someone that does not want to have sex.
> 
> And of course this includes the caveat the there is not REAL, PHYSICAL, issue that is causing the problem.


I can love someone whose desire wanes...for a while. It would not be permanently sustainable.

I suspect that would be true even if there were a real physical issue. We would reach the point where I could not sustain fidelity, and something would have to give.


----------



## BluesPower

Wazza said:


> I can love someone whose desire wanes...for a while. It would not be permanently sustainable.
> 
> I suspect that would be true even if there were a real physical issue. We would reach the point where I could not sustain fidelity, and something would have to give.


Agreed, but for me, unless it is a physical issue, I would call it. At my age I just don't have time to fool around with happiness, and my happiness includes sex and a lot of it, always has. 

Good thing my GF is finding out that she is high drive, because it makes thing much easier. We don't even talk about having sex, we just have it. 

I fell asleep the other night because I had such a long day and I felt really guilty, because I knew she was ready. 

But we fixed that in the morning...


----------



## personofinterest

BluesPower said:


> Wazza said:
> 
> 
> 
> So if a woman genuinely loathes sex should she still do it? How often, to what degree? At what point does the guy have a right to be upset? At what point is the guy no longer being laid like tile?
> 
> 
> 
> While I don't completely understand your point... I will take a stab at this...
> 
> Since most of this is about woman not wanting sex, I will tackle that side.
> 
> You know, this could all be solved if the women in these situations had the courage to be honest.
> 
> If they would just say, " I don't love you any more, I am not attracted to you any more, let's get divorced", then all of this conversation could all be over.
> 
> Why some people don't understand that a romantic love situation USUALLY includes sex and the desire for sex by both parties.
> 
> If you are not in love and not attracted then just say so, and we can call it quits..
> 
> Or is complete honesty just too much to ask? Or is it that these women like having their husband to provide and kill spiders but for nothing else, which I believe is generally the case.
> 
> But then that would just be to easy to do it that way????
Click to expand...

 I will tell you why they are not honest as above. Because if any woman was that honest about not wanting 6, no self respecting man would stay married to her. And she doesn't want him to leave because she has it pretty good. If he is honest she probably won't have a marriage. So she wants the marriage and all of the good things it affords without having to step up and take care of her husband. That really is what it boils down to.


----------



## Wazza

personofinterest said:


> I will tell you why they are not honest as above. Because if any woman was that honest about not wanting 6, no self respecting man would stay married to her. And she doesn't want him to leave because she has it pretty good. If he is honest she probably won't have a marriage. So she wants the marriage and all of the good things it affords without having to step up and take care of her husband. That really is what it boils down to.


We possibly differ in our definitions of self respecting men. Sex matters to me, but I would not respect myself if I let my sex drive rule all other decisions?


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

From others posts and HOTI and POI's; no one responded they would let their sex drive rule all other decisions. 

Posts reflect sex is and rightly so a very important part of a good marriage. Not their supreme ruling end all be all only governing decision making driver ruling all decisions. 

IE when I go fishing by myselfI didn't ask my tallywacker. 
Or paint the house. Or visit the grandkids. 

But in between all activities I will fool around with my W. 

Sometimes W and I rent a hotel or cabin near the river and she fishes with me and swim in pool during the heat of the day.
&#55357;&#56846; it is very likely (a certainty) we'll fool around in the hotel or cabin. Because we TRULY like each other.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Wazza said:


> We possibly differ in our definitions of self respecting men. Sex matters to me, but I would not respect myself if I let my sex drive rule all other decisions?


Hmmm, 

I'm not sure I see where POI has advocated letting sex drive be the only driver in decision making;

Rather that men not willingly be used, taken for granted, etc. Lack of sex may just be a symptom, not the root cause. 

Had I wised up years ago, it wouldn't be sex driving my decision, but rather a greater self love that allowed me to believe _I deserve_ both a smart, beautiful, faithful wife _and_ lots of wicked good sex.


----------



## Wazza

personofinterest said:


> I will tell you why they are not honest as above. *Because if any woman was that honest about not wanting 6, no self respecting man would stay married to her.*


Just reiterating what I responded to. How many of our partners have those conversations, but don’t tell us for the sake of our egos? The post is not awash with other factors to consider. Yet no doubt some of us have wives faking orgasms to keep the peace.


----------



## PaulB

LeananSidhe said:


> Nope. He has always done those things, even when sex was not as often. Why wouldn’t he? Again, his kids and his dishes. I understand the little gifts and romantic gestures eventually dying out in a sexless marriage but the idea that a man shouldn’t have to help take care of his own children if he’s not getting sex is pretty ridiculous.



Why wouldn't he? Maybe he's tired. Or not in the mood...


Who ever said a man shouldn't have to take care of his children??? That was never alluded to.


----------



## PaulB

LeananSidhe said:


> And I understand that. 🙂
> 
> I was referring to the post by someone that said he stopped changing diapers and doing dishes.


That was me. And I didn't say that. I was pointing out that most husbands do these things, despite not being in the mood for it. Having sex with your spouse regularly is not some big "Nobody told me this!" surprise that women get smacked with after getting married. My point is that guys are not let off the hook for not doing things because they aren't in the mood for it. But many women want to be given a Pass card for not wanting to have sex with their husbands. 




Wazza said:


> So if a woman genuinely loathes sex should she still do it? How often, to what degree? At what point does the guy have a right to be upset? At what point is the guy no longer being laid like tile?


If a man decides he loathes engaging in meaningful conversation with his wife, at what point should she be allowed to be upset?




Wazza said:


> ...you have immediately equated no sex with no love. I don’t think it’s that simple. That’s what interests me about this thread. It’s a chance to dig more into things.


You are completely right. Sometimes it isn't. Sometimes it is. I personally don't understand staying married to someone you can't stand and/or have zero attraction to, but some people do, and I wager there is a significantly higher number of women who do v/s men.

Still, sometimes there is very much love there. This would describe my wife. We have two preschoolers. She tends to fall asleep before I'm ready/able to go to bed. When she goes without sex for awhile, it's like her sex drive goes dormant. Ray Ramano made a joke on his show when his wife threatened cutting him off, "I'm a sex camel." That's my wife. In her brain it doesn't register how infrequent the sex is in reality. Then the kids are gone some random occasional weekend and it's game on. Then the rat race starts again and no sex. She enjoys sex. We are very much in love. But the low volume of sex in our marriage has a ripple effect that a lot of people here don't like to acknowledge. (Or maybe haven't fully considered.) Whether a woman hates sex and doesn't want it, hates her husband and wants no sex with him, or loves her husband and enjoys sex but is not having sex, the impact on the husband is pretty much the same.


----------



## happiness27

PaulB said:


> LeananSidhe said:
> 
> 
> 
> And I understand that. 🙂
> 
> I was referring to the post by someone that said he stopped changing diapers and doing dishes.
> 
> 
> 
> That was me. And I didn't say that. I was pointing out that most husbands do these things, despite not being in the mood for it. Having sex with your spouse regularly is not some big "Nobody told me this!" surprise that women get smacked with after getting married. My point is that guys are not let off the hook for not doing things because they aren't in the mood for it. But many women want to be given a Pass card for not wanting to have sex with their husbands.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wazza said:
> 
> 
> 
> So if a woman genuinely loathes sex should she still do it? How often, to what degree? At what point does the guy have a right to be upset? At what point is the guy no longer being laid like tile?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If a man decides he loathes engaging in meaningful conversation with his wife, at what point should she be allowed to be upset?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wazza said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...you have immediately equated no sex with no love. I don’t think it’s that simple. That’s what interests me about this thread. It’s a chance to dig more into things.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are completely right. Sometimes it isn't. Sometimes it is. I personally don't understand staying married to someone you can't stand and/or have zero attraction to, but some people do, and I wager there is a significantly higher number of women who do v/s men.
> 
> Still, sometimes there is very much love there. This would describe my wife. We have two preschoolers. She tends to fall asleep before I'm ready/able to go to bed. When she goes without sex for awhile, it's like her sex drive goes dormant. Ray Ramano made a joke on his show when his wife threatened cutting him off, "I'm a sex camel." That's my wife. In her brain it doesn't register how infrequent the sex is in reality. Then the kids are at her parents' for the weekend and it's game on. Then the rat race starts again and no sex. She enjoys sex. We are very much in love. But the low volume of sex in our marriage has a ripple effect that a lot of people here don't like to acknowledge. (Or maybe haven't fully considered.) Whether a woman hates sex and doesn't want it, hates her husband and wants no sex with him, or loves her husband and enjoys sex but is not having sex, the impact on the husband is pretty much the same.
Click to expand...

Oh, man, I can tell you that camel thing really can happen...its so weird to me. Its like I have no control over it. I need my switch flipped back on to get going again, then I'm cool. If I'm super tired like midnight, its really hard to get revved up. But noon or 1 in the afternoon with no plans and Ill moan for hours tearing up the sheets. This is an odd tic that couples may get stuck trying to resolve but its great when they can work it out. Also, I like daylight sex and lotta teasing. Everyone is different and people are different at different times. I like volume but I prefer intensity. If I'm really busy or preoccupied, I'm not as into sex because I might be anxious about performing well on a job. Doesn't mean I don't love my husband or don't want sex - it just means I need to find ways to create the uninterrupted time and head space to focus on having a great fun time. Those dry spells are hell. We ladies need to talk more about how to create these sex spaces with our husbands.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

Wazza said:


> Just reiterating what I responded to. How many of our partners have those conversations, but don’t tell us for the sake of our egos? The post is not awash with other factors to consider. Yet no doubt some of us have wives faking orgasms to keep the peace.


To clarify your comment; so it's better for a W to repetitively say no, continually find any reasons under the sun, to a Hs advances rather than have an encouraging and constructive conversation with H on how their sex life can be better for both?

Continuing, so it's better a W repetitively to fake orgasms than have an encouraging conversation with H? 

Both of these start a garden of resentment growing that will manifest in ways harmful to the overall M health. 

Or if I misunderstood pls advise.

*and these are all good conversations, getting deeper in some ways to perhaps some misunderstandings.


----------



## BluesPower

Wazza said:


> Just reiterating what I responded to. How many of our partners have those conversations, but don’t tell us for the sake of our egos? The post is not awash with other factors to consider. Yet no doubt some of us have wives faking orgasms to keep the peace.


Not telling for the sake of egos is better than being honest? Really? 

Or how about men not be so insecure that they can't handle the truth? Or how about we all just get real? 

If she is having trouble in some area, hey, let's talk about it. 

I am open it anything that GF want, with in the basic exclusive context. And she know that all she has to do is ask. If it is within my power, I will do that for her. 

At this point in my life, I have no room for deception, faking O's, lack of communication, or any of that. 

She actually complains that she has TOO many O's sometimes, because she is so tires afterwards. I really can't do much about that one though...


----------



## farsidejunky

Wazza said:


> We possibly differ in our definitions of self respecting men. Sex matters to me, but I would not respect myself if I let my sex drive rule all other decisions?


I don't know if you're playing devil's advocate, but your straw man arguments, sprinkled with a helping of absolutism in your points, really muddies the water of the argument.

Nobody said all decisions will be made through sex drive. Why would you even pose that as a question?





Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

Wazza said:


> Just reiterating what I responded to. How many of our partners have those conversations, but don’t tell us for the sake of our egos? The post is not awash with other factors to consider. Yet no doubt some of us have wives faking orgasms to keep the peace.


I would argue two things on this. 

First is convenience. Motivation behind sparing the ego likely crosses over into maintenance of current lifestyle.

Second, that isn't real love. Loving somebody is giving them the truth, whether it is something they want to hear or not.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## personofinterest

farsidejunky said:


> Wazza said:
> 
> 
> 
> We possibly differ in our definitions of self respecting men. Sex matters to me, but I would not respect myself if I let my sex drive rule all other decisions?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if you're playing devil's advocate, but your straw man arguments, sprinkled with a helping of absolutism in your points, really muddies the water of the argument.
> 
> Nobody said all decisions will be made through sex drive. Why would you even pose that as a question?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

 I actually understand the defensiveness. I call it one of the stages of sexless marriage grief. I went through it to. 1st you try to fix yourself so that you will be perfect enough to be worthy of their desired. Then you get good and kissed off that you've done all this work and they still don't want you, and it begins to dawn on you that maybe you are not the problem. This phase is dangerous because you are very vulnerable. Then you reached the point that you think you can't take it anymore and you consider leaving. Some people leave at this point. If not, the next phase is being very defensive about your decision to stay, often congratulating yourself about how much deeper your vows are than everyone else's because you are staying even when things are badd. At this point anyone else who considers leaving just isn't quite as good as you. That eventually wears off and the despair comes. After the despair when you know things will never ever change and you are faced with the big cross roads, you either shut that entire part of yourself down and live your life celebate, or you decide it's time to leave. Or you do the 1st and then the 2nd period that's what I did. So I can understand the defensiveness because I went through it myself.


----------



## In Absentia

personofinterest said:


> I actually understand the defensiveness. I call it one of the stages of sexless marriage grief. I went through it to. 1st you try to fix yourself so that you will be perfect enough to be worthy of their desired. Then you get good and kissed off that you've done all this work and they still don't want you, and it begins to dawn on you that maybe you are not the problem. This phase is dangerous because you are very vulnerable. Then you reached the point that you think you can't take it anymore and you consider leaving. Some people leave at this point. If not, the next phase is being very defensive about your decision to stay, often congratulating yourself about how much deeper your vows are than everyone else's because you are staying even when things are badd. At this point anyone else who considers leaving just isn't quite as good as you. That eventually wears off and the despair comes. After the despair when you know things will never ever change and you are faced with the big cross roads, you either shut that entire part of yourself down and live your life celebate, or you decide it's time to leave. Or you do the 1st and then the 2nd period that's what I did. So I can understand the defensiveness because I went through it myself.


Or you stay for the children... because your wife is giving you just about enough. She doesn't want you to leave when the children are still young. She does the minimum. You don't want to go anyway. You are still hoping a bit. You take it. Until the children become grown-ups and then it dries up. And you can go. 

I can tell you one thing: it's horrible.


----------



## Wazza

personofinterest said:


> I actually understand the defensiveness. I call it one of the stages of sexless marriage grief. I went through it to. 1st you try to fix yourself so that you will be perfect enough to be worthy of their desired. Then you get good and kissed off that you've done all this work and they still don't want you, and it begins to dawn on you that maybe you are not the problem. This phase is dangerous because you are very vulnerable. Then you reached the point that you think you can't take it anymore and you consider leaving. Some people leave at this point. If not, the next phase is being very defensive about your decision to stay, often congratulating yourself about how much deeper your vows are than everyone else's because you are staying even when things are badd. At this point anyone else who considers leaving just isn't quite as good as you. That eventually wears off and the despair comes. After the despair when you know things will never ever change and you are faced with the big cross roads, you either shut that entire part of yourself down and live your life celebate, or you decide it's time to leave. Or you do the 1st and then the 2nd period that's what I did. So I can understand the defensiveness because I went through it myself.


Not where I am at. It’s not defensiveness or superiority, but trying to drive a more nuanced perspective that I think is missing from the discussion. 

But I don’t think this is where most people want to go, so I will drop the topic.


----------



## BluesPower

farsidejunky said:


> I don't know if you're playing devil's advocate, but your straw man arguments, sprinkled with a helping of absolutism in your points, really muddies the water of the argument.
> 
> Nobody said all decisions will be made through sex drive. Why would you even pose that as a question?


Well, I agree, but to be fair... My sex drive drives many, many decisions. 

One of them, along with several other factors, is which women I am going to be with.

But I am sure that I am unsophisticated...


----------



## Wazza

BluesPower said:


> Not telling for the sake of egos is better than being honest? Really?


The opposite. 

You bigger a deal you make it, the harder it might get to have an honest conversation. If a woman knows that voicing sexual disatisfaction is divorce material, I wonder how free she will feel to speak her mind.


----------



## farsidejunky

That's a hell of a lot of mental gymnastics to rationalize a decision to accept the unacceptable.

Look...I get it. A sexless marriage is what brought me here in 2014. 

The single best thing a refused partner can do is find the love for themself again, followed by reciprocity through action. The latter is incredibly difficult unless the former is achieved.

I don't think I would ever leave my wife over sexlessness, unless she were to take the stance that @In Absentia's wife has taken. That said, I have no problem with doing so little for her that she be willing to leave me. I spent a large portion of my 20's being a taker. That switch can get flipped very easily.

Not leaving has nothing to do with moral high ground. Simply put, it has everything to do with refusing to prioritize somebody who is not willing to do the same for me. Added to that is living a very full life with the things I do away from my wife.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## uhtred

There are a significant number of men with limited or not sexual desire. A LD / LD couple could be very happy. Its only the mismatch that is a problem. 



personofinterest said:


> I will tell you why they are not honest as above. Because if any woman was that honest about not wanting 6, no self respecting man would stay married to her. And she doesn't want him to leave because she has it pretty good. If he is honest she probably won't have a marriage. So she wants the marriage and all of the good things it affords without having to step up and take care of her husband. That really is what it boils down to.


----------



## In Absentia

farsidejunky said:


> I don't think I would ever leave my wife over sexlessness, unless she were to take the stance that @In Absentia's wife has taken.


Not sure what you mean by this... my wife's stance was (and still is) to have a sexless marriage...


----------



## personofinterest

uhtred said:


> There are a significant number of men with limited or not sexual desire. A LD / LD couple could be very happy. Its only the mismatch that is a problem.


EXACTLY

I have no doubt that my ex could be very happy with any number of the LD/ND wives I read about here...provided she cleaned well and took care of his health for him. In fact, part of my healing was realizing that just as it was unfair for him to expect me to ignore a HUGE part of myself and be someone I was not, it was unfair for me to expect him to manufacture a part of himself that did not exist and be something he is not. We were simply completely mismatched, and not just in the sex department.

And, in his defense, he had no way of knowing because our church discouraged frank conversations BEFORE marriage, lest we be "tempted." I just assumed he was using great spiritual restraint, and he assumed since I was staying pure, it must not be important to me either. It was a big fustercluck all around. Once he got used to not having someone take care of everything for him, I KNOW he was just as much happier as a was when we divorced. I actually hope he finds someone to have companionship with, as long as he is honest about the no sex part.


----------



## BluesPower

In Absentia said:


> Or you stay for the children... because your wife is giving you just about enough. She doesn't want you to leave when the children are still young. She does the minimum. You don't want to go anyway. You are still hoping a bit. You take it. Until the children become grown-ups and then it dries up. And you can go.
> 
> I can tell you one thing: it's horrible.


And as you do this, your soul will slowly be eaten away and you will be a shell of a person. 

I feel so sorry for you and your decisions @In Absentia...


----------



## BluesPower

Wazza said:


> The opposite.
> 
> You bigger a deal you make it, the harder it might get to have an honest conversation. If a woman knows that voicing sexual disatisfaction is divorce material, I wonder how free she will feel to speak her mind.


Look @Wazza, I have never dealt with this. The entire concept is repulsive to me. I am a sexual man, I like sex and women seem to like sex with me, so I have never gone without. 

But that is exactly the point. I hated my Ex W, and she still wanted to have sex with me.

Now, if I am in a relationship, which I am now, that relationship includes lots of sex. She likes it and is down with that or there IS NO RELATIONSHIP. 

Even now, my GF checks on me and I have to reassure her that I won't cheat, because of my past, which I am open about, to a point. 

We have a great R, in every way, not just sexually. But she is fully aware, and has been from the start, that while I am a stunningly great BF, dinner, dancing, cuddling, take out Mom and Sister, romantic gifts, the whole shebang... But included in all that greatness, is my need for a frequent, close, totally fulfilling sexual relationship. 

She has that need as well, esp because that has not been a part of her other R's over time. So everything is great. 

However, she is fully aware that other women find me attractive and want to bed me, so she keeps her game up. And, while I would NEVER cheat on her, I don't mind the fact that she has a reason to keep me happy. 

And, conversely, I love her and by that sheer fact alone, I have every reason to keep her happy. In fact I work really hard in the R to keep her happy in every way. 

Does any of that make sense or am I rambling????


----------



## farsidejunky

This does require clarification.

A sexless marriage is 11 times per year or less.

Your marriage is your wife telling you there will be no sex again...ever.

That is a big difference.

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## oldshirt

In Absentia said:


> Not sure what you mean by this... my wife's stance was (and still is) to have a sexless marriage...


...and every day that you stay in that marriage you are consenting and saying "yes" to it.


----------



## personofinterest

farsidejunky said:


> This does require clarification.
> 
> A sexless marriage is 11 times per year or less.
> 
> Your marriage is your wife telling you there will be no sex again...ever.
> 
> That is a big difference.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Yes, very big. And I think the standard definition of what is sexless bears repeating as well - 11 times or less a year.

Now would I be happy with once a week? No. But if you are having sex once a week, your marriage is NOT sexless. I get that it is frustrating; I'd be frustrated too. But it isn't sexless.

It gets on my nerves when someone posts about their "sexless marriage" and then 2 pages in, you find out they are having sex 1 or 2 times a week. I mean, that might not be as much as you'd like, but it's not sexless. That's like telling someone in a 3rd world country you're starving because you only get ONE 4 course meal a day.


----------



## NobodySpecial

I find this whole topic so disheartening. I read some of the posts in the link and it SCREAMS f-ed up expectations from rearing. We see here on SIM about how men are conditioned. I can see a lot of conditioning in the posts in the link. I can imagine how their marital scene kind of enforces that weirdness. One woman commented that she did not need some man pounding into her. Ew. Ick. That imagery is pretty yucky. And I can kind of see the narrative going to sex stinking vs how do I change this dynamic.

I had a friend who commented to me after surgery one time how relieved I must have been not to have to have sex during my recovery period. She and I were raised with similar religious and cultural expectations. Get married, have a house.... blah dee blah. My Mom commented to me one time what hard work sex in marriage is, and her tone left no mistake that it was work she would have cheerfully forgone. I rejected this whole mindset. This friend did not.

I have challenged men on here to dump some of their dysfunctional conditioning. I would say the same to many women. But .... it cannot be looked at in a box of sex as some kind of separate marital THING. The fact is, marriage is a lot of things; co-joined finances, domicile, kids, taxes... The dysfunction comes when one SEEMS (generally men) to "over" prioritize sex (read, All you care about is sex!) and one SEEMS (generally women) to not prioritize it at all. Hell, I can see having difficulty prioritizing it if you were raised like I was that sex is this dirty horrible thing you only do with someone you love. 

My point is that the issue is greater, and FAR more challenging, than what useless, mean and selfish people these women are. Misguided, absolutely and for sure. Maybe chose men for their breeding and income, which you KNOW I despise. But every but a victim of the understanding gap as the men who find themselves married and no longer able to pursue sex on the open market going WTF?

My two cents.


----------



## NobodySpecial

personofinterest said:


> EXACTLY
> 
> I have no doubt that my ex could be very happy with any number of the LD/ND wives I read about here...provided she cleaned well and took care of his health for him. In fact, part of my healing was realizing that just as it was unfair for him to expect me to ignore a HUGE part of myself and be someone I was not, it was unfair for me to expect him to manufacture a part of himself that did not exist and be something he is not. We were simply completely mismatched, and not just in the sex department.
> 
> And, in his defense, he had no way of knowing because our church discouraged frank conversations BEFORE marriage, lest we be "tempted." I just assumed he was using great spiritual restraint, and he assumed since I was staying pure, it must not be important to me either. It was a big fustercluck all around. Once he got used to not having someone take care of everything for him, I KNOW he was just as much happier as a was when we divorced. I actually hope he finds someone to have companionship with, as long as he is honest about the no sex part.


I will get hammered for this. But sexuality in marriage is one area where religion is pure evil in its message and guidance.


----------



## personofinterest

NobodySpecial said:


> I will get hammered for this. But sexuality in marriage is one area where religion is pure evil in its message and guidance.


Honestly, I think it depends on the approach. I went to another church where the preacher actually did a series on Song of Solomon. He gave all couples he did premarital counseling for "The Gift of Sex" and "Sheet Music," which are two very pro-sex books for Christian couples. My own parents had a very active sex life, and it was no secret, and they are very devoted.

I think what happens is this: In a church's quest to "help" people save sex for marriage, they create all the preemptive roadblocks that create shame and paranoia. We've no doubt heard of the Duggar's and their weird thing about having chaperones during all courting until engagement, and then only hand-holding and "side hugs." The intention may be helpful, but the result can be very damaging.

Baptist upbringing aside, there was no way I was not going to have VERY frank discussions with current hubby about sex, along with testing the waters. Once you have been slowly killed inside by a sexless marriage, you will NEVER make that mistake again.

I do not regret being a virgin when I first married. I DO regret marrying in ignorance. And THAT could have been prevented.


----------



## Buddy400

uhtred said:


> There are a significant number of men with limited or not sexual desire. A LD / LD couple could be very happy. Its only the mismatch that is a problem.


I am quite sure that there are indeed a significant number of men with limited or no sexual desire.

The problem is: Are there the same numbers of each for both genders so that they evenly match up?

Just pulling some numbers out of a hat for demonstration purposes, if 1 out of a 100 men have limited sexual desire and 50 out of a 100 women have limited sexual desire, then its still a problem, right?

While there are those who think that this is an equal opportunity problem, I disagree.

And then there's the related problem of spontaneous desire vs responsive desire. Women with responsive desire may well consider themselves to have limited sexual desire. They just aren't aware that responsive desire in women is quite typical and, lacking the motivation to work with their responsive desire, it can result in the same outcome as limited desire. The numbers look like they might be 75% of men with spontaneous desire and 75% or women with responsive desire.


----------



## uhtred

I think what matters is if one partner is getting a lot less sex than they need to be happy, whatever that number is. I don't think people can easily change their level of sexual desire - up or down. 



personofinterest said:


> Yes, very big. And I think the standard definition of what is sexless bears repeating as well - 11 times or less a year.
> 
> Now would I be happy with once a week? No. But if you are having sex once a week, your marriage is NOT sexless. I get that it is frustrating; I'd be frustrated too. But it isn't sexless.
> 
> It gets on my nerves when someone posts about their "sexless marriage" and then 2 pages in, you find out they are having sex 1 or 2 times a week. I mean, that might not be as much as you'd like, but it's not sexless. That's like telling someone in a 3rd world country you're starving because you only get ONE 4 course meal a day.


----------



## uhtred

Agree 100%

Its coupled with a bunch of unfortunate ideas:

Sex is something women do *for* men. This idea is still somewhat prevalent and very common in older generation women, and some men. 

Never do anything sexual you don't want. While at some level this is good advice for women to avoid abuse, it can be carried much too far. There are lots of things people do in life that they don't particularly want to do: taking out the trash, cleaning the house, working etc. I think it causes problems to put sex on a special pedestal as something that should never be done if it isn't wanted. Why is a sexual favor for the person you love, so different from doing something else for them just because you love them.

Another is that female sexuality is somehow "shameful". We have lots of horrible terms for women who enjoy sex.

Yet another is that *all* men want lots of sex. That leaves women with LD husbands feeling like they must be doing something wrong.











NobodySpecial said:


> I find this whole topic so disheartening. I read some of the posts in the link and it SCREAMS f-ed up expectations from rearing. We see here on SIM about how men are conditioned. I can see a lot of conditioning in the posts in the link. I can imagine how their marital scene kind of enforces that weirdness. One woman commented that she did not need some man pounding into her. Ew. Ick. That imagery is pretty yucky. And I can kind of see the narrative going to sex stinking vs how do I change this dynamic.
> 
> I had a friend who commented to me after surgery one time how relieved I must have been not to have to have sex during my recovery period. She and I were raised with similar religious and cultural expectations. Get married, have a house.... blah dee blah. My Mom commented to me one time what hard work sex in marriage is, and her tone left no mistake that it was work she would have cheerfully forgone. I rejected this whole mindset. This friend did not.
> 
> I have challenged men on here to dump some of their dysfunctional conditioning. I would say the same to many women. But .... it cannot be looked at in a box of sex as some kind of separate marital THING. The fact is, marriage is a lot of things; co-joined finances, domicile, kids, taxes... The dysfunction comes when one SEEMS (generally men) to "over" prioritize sex (read, All you care about is sex!) and one SEEMS (generally women) to not prioritize it at all. Hell, I can see having difficulty prioritizing it if you were raised like I was that sex is this dirty horrible thing you only do with someone you love.
> 
> My point is that the issue is greater, and FAR more challenging, than what useless, mean and selfish people these women are. Misguided, absolutely and for sure. Maybe chose men for their breeding and income, which you KNOW I despise. But every but a victim of the understanding gap as the men who find themselves married and no longer able to pursue sex on the open market going WTF?
> 
> My two cents.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

And here's a kicker. Some comments have been religion always condemns sex but where that can be yes, it's not always true. I was raised religious and am still but sex with thought before marriage wasn't condemned and sex within M was supported. As was equal partnership and mutual respect and concern. But I hear and agree some religions discourage it, which imho isn't religious doctrine. I may get slack for saying some of these things out loud.

Rearing, as has been mentioned, plays a huge part. 
A family where mom and dad demonstrate sex is a problem and to be avoided will pass that on intentionally or unintentionally. 

A sexless marriage when everyone is healthy is foreign to me. I can logically understand some circumstances and know of friends who's marriages are low sex, and that's ok IF both are in non-coerced agreement and happy.

My family didn't condemn sex and it was a thing to be prized in a relationship. From my immediate family and aunts/uncles, cousins etc. 

And I was raised by a single mother, brother and sister. We were continually reminded not to get anyone pregnant or get pregnant, depending on who was being talked to. But that's it.

&#55357;&#56842; among other things I remember from mom and am thankful for is to treat others as you'd like to be treated, stand up straight, and a favorite always remember your table manners and common courtesy those will take you a long way. And that "you can do anything you set your mind to, don't let anyone say you can't do something". 

Gotta love moms.

Also, raised on a working farm - we were always trying to get all the bulls/cows to get together, and horses same.

If one has never seen a stallion get scent of a filly/mare in season then get fired up for a running mount should google it and see the passion there&#55357;&#56846;&#55357;&#56846;. For a guy it's encouraging and humbling at the same time &#55357;&#56898;&#55357;&#56898;.

So sex was all around. It's a great thing.


----------



## personofinterest

> My family didn't condemn sex and* it was a thing to be prized in a relationship*.


My family too. And honestly, while some of the beliefs may have been guidelines about when sex is appropriate, I find the above philosophy WAY healthier than:

Sex is just a body function and a choice no more important than ordering a pizza and you should just do it with everyone and not give it a thought. I think that has F'ed us up just as much as religion.


----------



## cashcratebob

NobodySpecial said:


> I will get hammered for this. But sexuality in marriage is one area where religion is pure evil in its message and guidance.


I was brought up protestant and can attest that the church doesn't really know how to handle how to discuss sex in marriage but I have heard some pretty good stuff on occasion. Someone mentioned a study on Song of Solomon. 

I would attest that probably the best teaching I heard as a teen from a youth pastor was simply, go ask your parents. My parents were open and honest and extremely influential in shaping what I consider is a positive view of sex.

I think back on past experiences with youth group leaders who in hindsight, simply seemed to want to talk about sex for the sheer "excitement" of it, w/o saying anything insightful or edifying. As it stands now, as a father of four, I would rather my boys and girls be told by their youth pastor to come talk to us (the parents). I am happy to talk openly and honestly.


----------



## NobodySpecial

personofinterest said:


> My family too. And honestly, while some of the beliefs may have been guidelines about when sex is appropriate, I find the above philosophy WAY healthier than:
> 
> Sex is just a body function and a choice no more important than ordering a pizza and you should just do it with everyone and not give it a thought. I think that has F'ed us up just as much as religion.


That is not an either or proposition. I see that endorsed nearly nowhere except insofar as it is good for selling music and movies.


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## cashcratebob

NobodySpecial said:


> That is not an either or proposition. I see that endorsed nearly nowhere except insofar as it is good for selling music and movies.


Tinder?? 

I supervise a couple younger guys who are comfortable enough to share their exploits through tinder. I would use personofinterest 's statement to exactly describe their endeavors...multiple different partners, week-to-week, with nary the slightest mention of even the most superficial level of intimacy, just sex.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

In Absentia said:


> Or you stay for the children... because your wife is giving you just about enough. She doesn't want you to leave when the children are still young. She does the minimum. You don't want to go anyway. You are still hoping a bit. You take it. Until the children become grown-ups and then it dries up. And you can go.
> 
> I can tell you one thing: it's horrible.


Either that, or once the kids are gone, she suddenly realizes that she's in danger of being alone. She may look to make amends at that point, but whatever she offers at that point is done out of fear rather than love, lust, or desire to truly bond. And/or, as is so often the case, the last fledgling leaving the nest coincides with perimenopause/menopause which for many, introduces new and legitimate physical limitations, so even if she's genuinely interested, it may be too late.

You had your one chance. That chance has a shelf life which you let expire. Tragic.


----------



## happiness27

cashcratebob said:


> I was brought up protestant and can attest that the church doesn't really know how to handle how to discuss sex in marriage but I have heard some pretty good stuff on occasion. Someone mentioned a study on Song of Solomon.
> 
> I would attest that probably the best teaching I heard as a teen from a youth pastor was simply, go ask your parents. My parents were open and honest and extremely influential in shaping what I consider is a positive view of sex.
> 
> I think back on past experiences with youth group leaders who in hindsight, simply seemed to want to talk about sex for the sheer "excitement" of it, w/o saying anything insightful or edifying. As it stands now, as a father of four, I would rather my boys and girls be told by their youth pastor to come talk to us (the parents). I am happy to talk openly and honestly.


Yeah, I have to say the church certainly helped shaped my viewpoint of sex. I took Ann Landers advice as a teenager and went to talk to my pastor about my concerns about pressures of sex, since I had acquired a steady boyfriend at age 16. He told me he didn't really have time to talk to me since it was Sunday after church and he was going to be late for dinner. He said he thought it was too late for me anyway since I had probably already "done it." 

Later in life, I attempted to go back to the church for some counseling about how to deal with childhood sex abuse. That pastor's words were: "Well, these things happen in families..." and, again, kept looking at his watch. 

Okay, you know what? I gave the church multiple chances. I have never, in any church from Baptist to Buddhist, found peace, guidance and solace, for which they are supposed to be havens. They are great at helping the homeless - but their routine congregations are SOL. 

I left the church and never looked back. Even in my naive *little* brain, I was able to figure out that God didn't make something that was so enjoyable if it wasn't meant to be enjoyed. Not at ALL hard to choose between the doom and dread of the pinched-faced brethren and the look of love and pleasure from a boy with whom I shared sex (eventually). 

Not everything about the churches are bad or terrible at all. All those lessons about being kind, not stealing or being prideful, etc, are still etched in my back. Good lessons. But my personal experience from back in the 70s at that particular set of churches was that they were not understanding or supportive of people experiencing real life. 

So, yeah, sex is a great thing - but I learned more about how to deal with it as an adult from better resources who taught that people can use sex for good or for harm. Those resources became my guides later in life. 

Most of the time, the main thing about sex is: first, do no harm. Not to yourself or to others. Don't use it for a weapon or a means of abuse. We are a civilized people and we have the brains to figure out how to be better if we will only not let ourselves be controlled by our defects.


----------



## In Absentia

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Either that, or once the kids are gone, she suddenly realizes that she's in danger of being alone. She may look to make amends at that point, but whatever she offers at that point is done out of fear rather than love, lust, or desire to truly bond. And/or, as is so often the case, the last fledgling leaving the nest coincides with perimenopause/menopause which for many, introduces new and legitimate physical limitations, so even if she's genuinely interested, it may be too late.
> 
> You had your one chance. That chance has a shelf life which you let expire. Tragic.


Absolutely... my youngest goes to uni next year. We are in an official sexless marriage, sanctioned by my dearest wife. Not looking for a "girlfriend" right now, but I'm free to do so. I think she might regret it next year, but maybe not. She is too busy looking after N. 1. Good luck to her.


----------



## In Absentia

BluesPower said:


> And as you do this, your soul will slowly be eaten away and you will be a shell of a person.
> 
> I feel so sorry for you and your decisions @In Absentia...


ah ah... that's happened already. A few years ago. I'm free now... we are officially in a sexless marriage and I'm free to find another woman... all approved and stamped.


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## In Absentia

farsidejunky said:


> This does require clarification.
> 
> A sexless marriage is 11 times per year or less.
> 
> Your marriage is your wife telling you there will be no sex again...ever.
> 
> That is a big difference.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Got it... :laugh:


----------



## In Absentia

oldshirt said:


> ...and every day that you stay in that marriage you are consenting and saying "yes" to it.


Of course... I will just have a young f*** buddy on the side... I'm fine with that. This is what she wants. :wink2:


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## EleGirl

I don't know if there is a site online where men talk about sex with their wives, or rather not wanting sex with their wives, in the same way. But, me are as likely as women to choose to make their marriage sexless. And when they do talk about their wives, it's just as ugly. I've seen it on some of the sites that cater to cheaters.


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## Handy

* EleGirl
men are as likely as women to choose to make their marriage sexless. And when they do talk about their wives, it's just as ugly.*

I can imagine that a man can say dreadful things about his wife. What I haven't read was a man calling his W a smelly animal that wants to pound on him like I read on the Web MD sex topic. I know some or many guys are squeamish about blood, like to wash up after sex, and don't do oral on his W.

I gave up trying to have sex with my W. So maybe I am one of those refusing men?

It wasn't worth all of the put downs she sent my way. Talk like "I don't have to worry about (me) having an affair, no one would want you (me)" and "men think with their little head." Then there was the time about "sex therapy/books/articles in popular magazines are all about men getting sex at a woman's expense" and "most women would be better of with out men."


BTW, I am real happy to read that many women here on TAM do like sex, physical touch, and doing things as a couple. It is a refreshing outlook on relationships.


----------



## EleGirl

Handy said:


> EleGirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> men are as likely as women to choose to make their marriage sexless. And when they do talk about their wives, it's just as ugly.
> 
> I can imagine that a man can say dreadful things about his wife. What I haven't read was a man calling his W a smelly animal that wants to pound on him like I read on the Web MD sex topic. I know some or many guys are squeamish about blood, like to wash up after sex, and don't do oral on his W.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I've read similar things said by men who detest their wife. Shoot, I've had a husband say things about that ugly to my face. And yes it was he who refused sex.
> 
> 
> 
> Handy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I gave up trying to have sex with my W. So maybe I am one of those refusing men?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yep, you are. Though I'm not going to make the judgement of whether or not you are justified. I do think that there are times when a marriage is so messed up that one or the other just cannot tolerate sex with the other. In my book, that's often the time for divorce.
> 
> 
> 
> Handy said:
> 
> 
> 
> It wasn't worth all of the put downs she sent my way. Talk like "I don't have to worry about (me) having an affair, no one would want you (me)" and "men think with their little head."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yea, that's about on the level of some of the trash my ex used to say. predictable. Though, not the 'little head' remark of course.  But I can assure you that he could find things equally mean spirited to say.
> 
> 
> 
> Handy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then there was the time about "sex therapy/books/articles in popular magazines are all about men getting sex at a woman's expense" and "most women would be better of with out men."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Now my husband did not do this. But he did run around cheating with every woman who would go along with it.
> 
> From what I have read, most people who end up choosing to make their marriage sexless do it because they are very upset with their spouse over real or imagined things. It's often a passive aggressive way to punish their spouse. I know that's why my ex did it. He know that sex, touch, etc is very high on my needs list. So it was a great way for him to passive aggressively punish me for breathing air.
> 
> 
> 
> Handy said:
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, I am real happy to read that many women here on TAM do like sex, physical touch, and doing things as a couple. It is a refreshing outlook on relationships.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Most women like sex, physical touch, and doing things as a couple.
Click to expand...


----------



## Handy

EleGirl, just for the record often times when we did have sex and me trying to "make out" my W said it caused her problems. One reason I quit initiating anything sexual was I didn't want to be the cause her discomforts.

It seems some women say men only want sex and nothing else from a woman. This can make a man feel like he isn't valued for any of the other things he does or tries to do for his partner. It is like being accused of having an affair when you are not. It causes a person to think about just not going there and not even explaining what is really happening after being accused for many, many years.

What I am seeing is so many things are just incompatibility issues.


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## personofinterest

Giving up on sex because of constant rejection isn't the same as withholding.

The difference between the two is blatantly obvious.


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## NobodySpecial

And it is always not just the other PERSON's fault, it is always the whole other GENDER's fault.


----------



## Taxman

In my experience, withholding of sex is usually the express train to divorce city. I have seen a few people after the fact. The wives, in many respects are pretty surprised that their spouses were unwilling to accept the rejection of physical intimacy. I have pointed out numerous times that physical intimacy is absolutely necessary for couples to bond. I had one woman say that HE OWED HER for all the years she had sex with him. I asked what the going rate was per sex act? She replied that she was not a common streetwalker, to which I replied, you just hung a price tag on sex, tell me who is the prostitute? That marriage did come to a screeching halt. She offered to have sex with hiim, and he declined. He said that the repeated rejection over the last year or so, completely caused him to fall out of love. She asked if he hated her, and he said no, I neither love nor hate, I just don't give a shlt, and I want to be loved and to return it.

Two years later, he has found another mate. She is dating, and begrudgingly (according to her ex) now "putting out". According to her ex, she discovered too late that withholding of intimacy is guaranteed to keep a mate out of your life.


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## EleGirl

Handy said:


> EleGirl, just for the record often times when we did have sex and me trying to "make out" my W said it caused her problems. One reason I quit initiating anything sexual was I didn't want to be the cause her discomforts.
> 
> It seems some women say men only want sex and nothing else from a woman. This can make a man feel like he isn't valued for any of the other things he does or tries to do for his partner. It is like being accused of having an affair when you are not. It causes a person to think about just not going there and not even explaining what is really happening after being accused for many, many years.
> 
> What I am seeing is so many things are just incompatibility issues.


Unfortunately, there are stereo types that hurt both men and women. It's a double edge sword and very unfortunate.

You know the stereo type about men only wanting sex also hurts women. For one thing it often time hurts their relationships in the manner that it hurts yours. I can 

It also hurts women whose husbands chose to not want sex. After all, if all men just want sex all the time, then there clearly must be something wrong with a woman who wants sex but her husband does not. Often times when a woman complains that her husband does not want sex, the reaction she gets is that people ask her what's wrong with her. After all, if men want sex all the time, with anyone who will allow it, then there must be something wrong with her.

When I first came to TAM and posted about my sexless marriage, I was told things like "Good, it's about time that a woman knows what it feels like." I was attacked, laughed at and other wise made to feel like it was my fault. Back then, when a woman on TAM brought this up she was give all kinds of advice about how to dress more sexy, try harder, blah blah blah. This is also what it's like for women in the real world when their husband does not want sex and the woman complains. 

Yet, generally when a man complains that his wife does not want sex he generally gets sympathy. After all women are just like that - right?

So it's the woman's fault if a married man does not get sex and it's the woman's fault if her husband does not want sex with her. Another double edge sword.

All that said, it sound like in your marriage that you both are contributing to the sexlessness. From what you said, your wife does not seem to want sex and so you are choosing to not go there. There is very often a symptom of other big problems in the marriage. How is the rest of your relationship?


----------



## personofinterest

> When I first came to TAM and posted about my sexless marriage, I was told things like "Good, it's about time that a woman knows what it feels like." I was attacked, laughed at and other wise made to feel like it was my fault. Back then, when a woman on TAM brought this up she was give all kinds of advice about how to dress more sexy, try harder, blah blah blah. This is also what it's like for women in the real world when their husband does not want sex and the woman complains.


How awful. But sadly, I'm not surprised


----------



## EleGirl

NobodySpecial said:


> I will get hammered for this. But sexuality in marriage is one area where religion is pure evil in its message and guidance.


I don't know where you got your idea of what religion has to say about sex in marriage. Did you grow up in a home with parents that had some very restrictive religious beliefs?

When I married my first husband we can a consultation with a priest. He told us that in marriage, anything sexual that we can to do is just fine. He said that there should be no guilt, no holding back. 

There I not one religious view of sex in marriage. There are over 30,000 protestant sects alone. So this does not include orthodox, Coptic, Catholic, Jewish sects and Islamic sects. Each has their own view point on these things. If you read the Bible, there are some chapters that pretty much say that I was told. Painting all religions (or religious sects) with one brush is just silly.


----------



## NobodySpecial

EleGirl said:


> I don't know where you got your idea of what religion has to say about sex in marriage. Did you grow up in a home with parents that had some very restrictive religious beliefs?
> 
> When I married my first husband we can a consultation with a priest. He told us that in marriage, anything sexual that we can to do is just fine. He said that there should be no guilt, no holding back.
> 
> There I not one religious view of sex in marriage. There are over 30,000 protestant sects alone. So this does not include orthodox, Coptic, Catholic, Jewish sects and Islamic sects. Each has their own view point on these things. If you read the Bible, there are some chapters that pretty much say that I was told. Painting all religions (or religious sects) with one brush is just silly.



I think the idea of putting god into sexual relationships is confusing at best. By no means do all christian sects have the same dysfunctions or the same level of dysfunction. But the degree to which they are involved or place sexuality on a specific plane of sin is negative in my view. Islam is in the same or worse boat.


----------



## Handy

NoBodySpecial, I didn't mean to criticize a whole gender. Sometimes I write and refer to things in general or have specific forum thread in mind like the WebMD articles I recently read where several women called men's sex drive animalistic, the women said they didn't like to be "pounded on", that anything sexual (body fluids) was disgusting, and men smelled gross.

I grew up hearing mostly that women (in general) weren't that interested in sex but would do it to keep a H from straying. Then there are the relationship strain issues, medical issues, money and kid issues, work pressures, so no wonder some people are disappointed in their own relationship and hear stories of a similar situation so write things as if it is common.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Handy said:


> NoBodySpecial, I didn't mean to criticize a whole gender. Sometimes I write and refer to things in general or have specific forum thread in mind like the WebMD articles I recently read where several women called men's sex drive animalistic, the women said they didn't like to be "pounded on", that anything sexual (body fluids) was disgusting, and men smelled gross.


I have been "pounded on" in my youth when I was dumb. I know of what they speak. It ticks you right off when they say this about MEN doesn't it? MEN are animistic. MEN smell bad. For some men on this board, this is the shoe on the other foot. We here all the time about what WOMEN are. And it aint pretty.


----------



## wilson

EleGirl said:


> I don't know if there is a site online where men talk about sex with their wives, or rather not wanting sex with their wives, in the same way. But, me are as likely as women to choose to make their marriage sexless. And when they do talk about their wives, it's just as ugly. I've seen it on some of the sites that cater to cheaters.


Of course men can make the marriage sexless, but it's rare that they have absolutely no sexual interest at all and say they find sex revolting. It may be that they don't want to have sex with their wife, but it's very unlikely that they have given up on all sexual activity. They are likely still experiencing sexual pleasure in some other way, either by themselves or with other people. In no way does that make it okay, but it is a critically important difference between the genders.

In reading that other thread, it's clear that some of those women don't even enjoy a physical level of pleasure from sex. They say they love their H and that he is good at sex, but they feel a revulsion from it. It's almost the same way many of us would feel if we were forced to have homosexual relations. Think about something like oral sex. Are the physical sensations you feel different if it's a M or W performing it? Maybe a little, but most of us would have a loud voice in our heads saying "THIS IS NOT RIGHT!!" and we may feel revolted by it.(*) Think about having sex with your same-sex best friend. It doesn't matter how much you love them, how well they treated you, or how good at sex they were, you would likely greatly struggle to have regular sexual relations with them and there would be very little you could do to change that.

[(*) In no way do I mean to imply that homosexual sex itself is revolting. The example was just to show many people find sex with their non-preferred gender revolting. Since most people on this board are heterosexual, I used a homosexual example. If most people here were homosexual, I would have used a heterosexual example.]


----------



## Buddy400

EleGirl said:


> When I first came to TAM and posted about my sexless marriage, I was told things like "Good, it's about time that a woman knows what it feels like." I was attacked, laughed at and other wise made to feel like it was my fault. Back then, when a woman on TAM brought this up she was give all kinds of advice about how to dress more sexy, try harder, blah blah blah. This is also what it's like for women in the real world when their husband does not want sex and the woman complains.


How long ago did you come to TAM?

I'll believe that people were that clueless in the past.

I'm pretty sure it's better now, I see very little of that anymore (I see it, just not much).


----------



## Buddy400

wilson said:


> Of course men can make the marriage sexless, but it's rare that they have absolutely no sexual interest at all and say they find sex revolting. It may be that they don't want to have sex with their wife, but it's very unlikely that they have given up on all sexual activity. They are likely still experiencing sexual pleasure in some other way, either by themselves or with other people. In no way does that make it okay, but it is a critically important difference between the genders.
> 
> In reading that other thread, it's clear that some of those women don't even enjoy a physical level of pleasure from sex. They say they love their H and that he is good at sex, but they feel a revulsion from it. It's almost the same way many of us would feel if we were forced to have homosexual relations. Think about something like oral sex. Are the physical sensations you feel different if it's a M or W performing it? Maybe a little, but most of us would have a loud voice in our heads saying "THIS IS NOT RIGHT!!" and we may feel revolted by it.(*) Think about having sex with your same-sex best friend. It doesn't matter how much you love them, how well they treated you, or how good at sex they were, you would likely greatly struggle to have regular sexual relations with them and there would be very little you could do to change that.
> 
> [(*) In no way do I mean to imply that homosexual sex itself is revolting. The example was just to show many people find sex with their non-preferred gender revolting. Since most people on this board are heterosexual, I used a homosexual example. If most people here were homosexual, I would have used a heterosexual example.]


There are, certainly, men with low testosterone. 

There are certainly men who are control freaks. 

But, men have the "advantage" of a constant flow of testosterone fueling their sex drive, something that women just don;t have. Also, while there are men attracted to other women but not their wife; the number of women attracted to other men but not their husband is likely higher (due to the affect of women rating most men as "below average").

So, while I certainly believe some sexless marriages are caused by men (and I have sympathy for the women), I find it hard to believe that men and women are responsible in equal numbers. 

And it's no doubt harder on the women since, if it happens less, it's less expected by society at large.


----------



## badsanta

EleGirl said:


> So it's the woman's fault if a married man does not get sex and it's the woman's fault if her husband does not want sex with her. Another double edge sword.


Once it is revealed that same sex marriages have the exact same problems in the bedroom as everyone else... perhaps a lightbulb in the male brain will illuminate.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

Wow, this is getting touchy. Interesting and good info here and there but it's got to be known as a given this could "divide the camps" at some level.


----------



## personofinterest

Buddy400 said:


> EleGirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I first came to TAM and posted about my sexless marriage, I was told things like "Good, it's about time that a woman knows what it feels like." I was attacked, laughed at and other wise made to feel like it was my fault. Back then, when a woman on TAM brought this up she was give all kinds of advice about how to dress more sexy, try harder, blah blah blah. This is also what it's like for women in the real world when their husband does not want sex and the woman complains.
> 
> 
> 
> How long ago did you come to TAM?
> 
> I'll believe that people were that clueless in the past.
> 
> I'm pretty sure it's better now, I see very little of that anymore (I see it, just not much).
Click to expand...

 I don't know. I've only been here a little over a year, and in every thread started by a woman who doesn't understand why her husband won't have sex with her or why her husband would rather look at porne, it almost never makes it to the 2nd page without some man asking her if she is fat. And the latest version, a poor hurting woman's thread suddenly became all about how it was her fault because she got a boob job.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

personofinterest said:


> How awful. But sadly, I'm not surprised


Incomprehensible to me. 

I'm not so noble as to be above appreciating seeing some suffering who I think generally deserves it. But even at my basest, I _never_ want to see general suffering or suffering in an innocent who is just a proxy by virtue of sharing some trait with the one I'm angry at. Punishment should be judicious and reserved for the truly guilty. How does @EleGirl being able to feel (what was ignorantly thought to be only) a man's pain do anything to rectify the frigid women with whom these men think they have cause for complaint? For that matter, how does it help the men themselves?

Gawd, what a stupid, misguided response.


----------



## DTO

In Absentia said:


> Of course... I will just have a young f*** buddy on the side... I'm fine with that. This is what she wants. :wink2:


It's what she tells you she wants, or what she thinks she wants (for now anyways). Wait until when/if you find some attractive and willing partner, you have sex, and then the feelings follow.

I'll bet she is thinking (1) you'll never do it and she called your bluff about how serious you are regarding sex, or (2) you'll go get some strange once in a while then come back and be a dutiful, loving husband. Watch how quick she flips once you start losing the emotional bond.


----------



## In Absentia

DTO said:


> It's what she tells you she wants, or what she thinks she wants (for now anyways). Wait until when/if you find some attractive and willing partner, you have sex, and then the feelings follow.
> 
> I'll bet she is thinking (1) you'll never do it and she called your bluff about how serious you are regarding sex, or (2) you'll go get some strange once in a while then come back and be a dutiful, loving husband. Watch how quick she flips once you start losing the emotional bond.


You might be right (1). She seemed genuinely sad when she told me I could have sex somewhere else. We'll see. I suspect I will find another woman at some point and we will divorce... N. 2 is out of the question.

BTW, the emotional bond was lost many years ago when she started rejecting me and I got detached and got resentful... I've been thinking about this and I believe I'm upset and sad because this is the ultimate rejection... I should be happpy to be free, but I'm not. I guess my male pride has been hurt again.


----------



## MEM2020

It’s always helpful to hear a different viewpoint.

I’ve read countless threads where the man starts out with chapter book and verse about how much effort he pours into the marriage. He basically works and comes home to help SAHM wife with kids, housework, etc. They spend tons of time together and go on dates. They also have a terrible sex life.

Countless times I see female posters ignore everything he’s said and state the following: You aren’t meeting her emotional needs. 

And if that isn’t blame what is. 

And fwiw - I generally agree with the sentiment. I mean sometimes the H has let himself go - some women have a need for their partners to stay fit. But more often the unmet needs relate to: edge and novelty. Basically he’s become too nice and too patterned. 

And yet it is incredibly rare for - those needs - to be highlighted as missing. So he gets blamed but in this unhelpful sense. He gets told to try harder and be more supportive. 

The average guy - has no clue that his wife can really like him while simultaneously feeling no desire. Throw in his lack of understanding of responsive desire and it is game over. 

If he does get sympathy it’s from other men who are often in the same boat for the same reason - meaning their grasp of the mechanics of desire. They basically tell him that the norm is for women to lose desire for their partners. 

And yes - sometimes he gets a different type of support from people who say that his wife bait and switched him. 

The interesting thing is that bait and switch is an equal opportunity tactic. Most women who are the unwilling participants in a sexless marriage will tell you that sex was good to great in the beginning. 

Is it bait and switch when the man is refusing sex? Or are HIS emotional needs not being met? Sometimes it is the former and sometimes it’s the latter. But it is difficult to tell from outside the marriage.

The ONE group who gets consistent hostility on TAM are the women who openly admit to a loss of desire. Men would likely also get bashed for losing desire - but apparently men who have lost desire - are unwilling to admit it on an open forum.








EleGirl said:


> Unfortunately, there are stereo types that hurt both men and women. It's a double edge sword and very unfortunate.
> 
> You know the stereo type about men only wanting sex also hurts women. For one thing it often time hurts their relationships in the manner that it hurts yours. I can
> 
> It also hurts women whose husbands chose to not want sex. After all, if all men just want sex all the time, then there clearly must be something wrong with a woman who wants sex but her husband does not. Often times when a woman complains that her husband does not want sex, the reaction she gets is that people ask her what's wrong with her. After all, if men want sex all the time, with anyone who will allow it, then there must be something wrong with her.
> 
> When I first came to TAM and posted about my sexless marriage, I was told things like "Good, it's about time that a woman knows what it feels like." I was attacked, laughed at and other wise made to feel like it was my fault. Back then, when a woman on TAM brought this up she was give all kinds of advice about how to dress more sexy, try harder, blah blah blah. This is also what it's like for women in the real world when their husband does not want sex and the woman complains.
> 
> Yet, generally when a man complains that his wife does not want sex he generally gets sympathy. After all women are just like that - right?
> 
> So it's the woman's fault if a married man does not get sex and it's the woman's fault if her husband does not want sex with her. Another double edge sword.
> 
> All that said, it sound like in your marriage that you both are contributing to the sexlessness. From what you said, your wife does not seem to want sex and so you are choosing to not go there. There is very often a symptom of other big problems in the marriage. How is the rest of your relationship?


----------



## EleGirl

Buddy400 said:


> How long ago did you come to TAM?
> 
> I'll believe that people were that clueless in the past.
> 
> I'm pretty sure it's better now, I see very little of that anymore (I see it, just not much).


I joined in 2011. The month/year a person joined TAM is next to their name on each post.

Yea, it's gotten a lot better now. It happened because some of the women here pushed back.


----------



## MEM2020

I am offended by the post below. 

And it required a good deal of restraint for me to limit my comment to that single sentence. 




EleGirl said:


> I joined in 2011. The month/year a person joined TAM is next to their name on each post.
> 
> Yea, it's gotten a lot better now. It happened because some of the women here pushed back.


----------



## Wazza

MEM2020 said:


> The average guy - has no clue that his wife can really like him while simultaneously feeling no desire.


 If the end result is celibacy or near celibacy, I'm not sure that liking would be enough.


----------



## Wazza

EleGirl said:


> Unfortunately, there are stereo types that hurt both men and women. It's a double edge sword and very unfortunate.
> 
> You know the stereo type about men only wanting sex also hurts women. For one thing it often time hurts their relationships in the manner that it hurts yours. I can
> 
> It also hurts women whose husbands chose to not want sex. After all, if all men just want sex all the time, then there clearly must be something wrong with a woman who wants sex but her husband does not. Often times when a woman complains that her husband does not want sex, the reaction she gets is that people ask her what's wrong with her. After all, if men want sex all the time, with anyone who will allow it, then there must be something wrong with her.
> 
> When I first came to TAM and posted about my sexless marriage, I was told things like "Good, it's about time that a woman knows what it feels like." I was attacked, laughed at and other wise made to feel like it was my fault. Back then, when a woman on TAM brought this up she was give all kinds of advice about how to dress more sexy, try harder, blah blah blah. This is also what it's like for women in the real world when their husband does not want sex and the woman complains.
> 
> Yet, generally when a man complains that his wife does not want sex he generally gets sympathy. After all women are just like that - right?
> 
> So it's the woman's fault if a married man does not get sex and it's the woman's fault if her husband does not want sex with her. Another double edge sword.
> 
> All that said, it sound like in your marriage that you both are contributing to the sexlessness. From what you said, your wife does not seem to want sex and so you are choosing to not go there. There is very often a symptom of other big problems in the marriage. How is the rest of your relationship?


Educate me.....

I accept this happens to both sexes, and its awful for either sex to be on the receiving end of deprivation. But my impression is that it is far more common for women to deprive men. I also wonder if both genders deprive for the same reasons. 

You seem to believe both genders experience this with equal frequency. Is that right? If so, what is the basis of your belief? I'm genuinely open to learn here, but at this stage I don't agree with you. I'm not in any way questioning your personal experiences. Just wondering how representative they are.


----------



## 2ntnuf

From personal experience and generally reading and talking with other men, it seems less frequent that men lack sexual desire for their wives. When they do, they've said it had something to do with her appearance or hygiene more often than other reasons. 

When I consider that men might not be the best at looking at their own actions, I wonder how accurate that is. However, knowing men are generally visual creatures that can be turned on or off by the clothing a woman wears, I have difficulty not having appearance and hygiene as my first considerations. That doesn't mean I reject the reality that there are emotional reasons behind issues with desire. 

In my own experiences with second wife, I chose poorly. I didn't have that desire to rock her world, but I did have respect for her when I first encountered her. Her personality was a turn on for me and she did have some physical qualities that were attractive to me. 

Over time, as she showed me she did not respect me, I lost respect for her, and that was a driving force behind my desire for her... moreso than the normal or usual male attraction to the visual and physical. 

I did not choose her for my physical attraction and desire for her, thinking that I would respect her more for her brain and her personality. I chose my first wife because of the physical attraction I had to her, and the incomprehensible chemical reaction I had when I was near her. I could not help feeling and thinking I wanted her as soon and often as possible. That was pretty much all I had in common with her. I didn't want that again. I took what I though was, the high road. 

I was wrong. There is a combination of things that works best when combined with maturity, strength of character and an understanding of self which works best. I believe my own desire for that chemical draw without much understanding of it contributed to issues in both marriages. It's one hell of a balancing act.


----------



## MEM2020

This is an incredibly perceptive post. 




2ntnuf said:


> From personal experience and generally reading and talking with other men, it seems less frequent that men lack sexual desire for their wives. When they do, they've said it had something to do with her appearance or hygiene more often than other reasons.
> 
> When I consider that men might not be the best at looking at their own actions, I wonder how accurate that is. However, knowing men are generally visual creatures that can be turned on or off by the clothing a woman wears, I have difficulty not having appearance and hygiene as my first considerations. That doesn't mean I reject the reality that there are emotional reasons behind issues with desire.
> 
> In my own experiences with second wife, I chose poorly. I didn't have that desire to rock her world, but I did have respect for her when I first encountered her. Her personality was a turn on for me and she did have some physical qualities that were attractive to me.
> 
> Over time, as she showed me she did not respect me, I lost respect for her, and that was a driving force behind my desire for her... moreso than the normal or usual male attraction to the visual and physical.
> 
> I did not choose her for my physical attraction and desire for her, thinking that I would respect her more for her brain and her personality. I chose my first wife because of the physical attraction I had to her, and the incomprehensible chemical reaction I had when I was near her. I could not help feeling and thinking I wanted her as soon and often as possible. That was pretty much all I had in common with her. I didn't want that again. I took what I though was, the high road.
> 
> I was wrong. There is a combination of things that works best when combined with maturity, strength of character and an understanding of self which works best. I believe my own desire for that chemical draw without much understanding of it contributed to issues in both marriages. It's one hell of a balancing act.


----------



## oldshirt

In Absentia said:


> ... I've been thinking about this and I believe I'm upset and sad because this is the ultimate rejection... I should be happpy to be free, but I'm not. I guess my male pride has been hurt again.


This is the one post you have made lately that I can relate to and fully agree with (although I don't think it is a male pride issue)

For a man, yes it is a primary rejection. Romance/sexuality is what separates our special someone from all others and what makes them special. It may not be anywhere near the only factor that makes a relationship, but it is what separates our mate from all others. 

For a spouse to state they no longer want a sexual relationship and declare the sexuality null and void is saying you are no longer their mate but are now just another face in the crowd or just another relative at the summer reunion. It is saying she no longer views you as a man or her special someone - OUCH!!!

Additionally, her giving you her blessings to get it elsewhere is the final nail in the coffin of your marital Sexlife. Once that has been relinquished and handed off, there really is no going back. She really is done. 

You are fully justified in feeling no joy in this. There is nothing to celebrate here.

All I can say is that in a way your W has done the right and honorable thing even though it is sad and is surely hard to hear.

She has removed all doubt and has eliminated all hope and burned the bridge behind her. There is no question where you stand and no question of what options you have vs don't have. 

The choice and your course of action is now fully in your court.

Many men like Uhtred and Cromer and others were not given such clarity. They have/had the carrot of hope dangled infront of them indefinately to keep them clinging to hope and thinking there may be a chance someday when in reality that hope shall never come to pass.


----------



## PatriciaLee

As a woman who is currently struggling to fulfill her husband's sexual needs, this post hits hard.

I spent so many years having sex with my husband when I didn't want to. Because our sex drives don't match. Because sex was painful. When birthcontrol killed my sex drive. Because I was exhausted from having newborn children, who didn't sleep more than 2-3 hours at a time for each of their lives. I still had sex when I didn't want to, to make sure his needs were being met.

Doing this caused me to reach a horrendous breaking point though. As much as I want to continue to meet his needs, I physically feel ill now. I feel like an absolute monster. I try to just do it to meet his needs, I know it is important. It's just killing me mentally.


----------



## oldshirt

PatriciaLee said:


> As a woman who is currently struggling to fulfill her husband's sexual needs, this post hits hard.
> 
> I spent so many years having sex with my husband when I didn't want to. Because our sex drives don't match. Because sex was painful. When birthcontrol killed my sex drive. Because I was exhausted from having newborn children, who didn't sleep more than 2-3 hours at a time for each of their lives. I still had sex when I didn't want to, to make sure his needs were being met.
> 
> Doing this caused me to reach a horrendous breaking point though. As much as I want to continue to meet his needs, I physically feel ill now. I feel like an absolute monster. I try to just do it to meet his needs, I know it is important. It's just killing me mentally.


The catch-22 to situations like this is if your H is anywhere close to being a decent human being, he is likely feeling the disconnect and is feeling like a monster himself.

He is likely coming away feeling bad and disheartened as well. 

The real bitter irony to situations like this is that after a point, sex is no longer a bonding experience that brings people together and they feel closer and more emotionally connected afterwards.

But rather feel dirty and disheartened and resentful after.


----------



## TJW

oldshirt said:


> All I can say is that in a way your W has done the right and honorable thing even though it is sad and is surely hard to hear.
> The choice and your course of action is now fully in your court.


Yes. I have 1000% more respect for your W for doing this. She has a sense of fairness and equity, and is not "entitled" like those women described previously on this thread. Personally, I find this far more honorable than "duty" sex.



oldshirt said:


> Many men like Uhtred and Cromer and others were not given such clarity. They have/had the carrot of hope dangled infront of them indefinately to keep them clinging to hope and thinking there may be a chance someday when in reality that hope shall never come to pass.


Yes, also. There is the "entitlement". Many of us get the "carrot" so that we keep the support, the fatherhood, the household duties coming, but in reality, the "hope" we have is quite in vain. 

Any resemblance of a marital relationship which meets OUR needs will never be delivered.


----------



## oldshirt

TJW said:


> Yes. I have 1000% more respect for your W for doing this. She has a sense of fairness and equity, and is not "entitled" like those women described previously on this thread. Personally, I find this far more honorable than "duty" sex.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, also. There is the "entitlement". Many of us get the "carrot" so that we keep the support, the fatherhood, the household duties coming, but in reality, the "hope" we have is quite in vain.
> 
> Any resemblance of a marital relationship which meets OUR needs will never be delivered.


I agree with all of this as well.

Not only do I think it is more honorable and the right to do rather than coughing up periodic resentful duty and starfish sex to dangle the carrot, I think it is more pragmatic and efficacious to just declare an end to the sex life for a number of reasons.

For starters, notice that Uhtred and In Absentia haven't gone anywhere and Cromer even took 10 years to dissolve the marriage and when he did it was with the ice-cold heart of an embittered and resentful man. 

My point is, even with the disclosure of someone no longer interested in a sex life going forward, many men will opt to remain in the marriage even with the knowledge there will be no more sex.

As that will be an informed decision and the pressure if trying to jump-start or reignite a Sexlife out if the picture, there won't be the ongoing resentment and bitterness and chronic frustrations that the duty sex and carrot-dangling fosters.

With the open knowledge that his wife no longer wants a marital sex life he can then decide whether to suck it up and live with it or take mistresses/FWBs/escorts etc or dissolve the marriage.

With either of those options it can be an informed decision by both parties and both parties can go forward cooperatively and without pressure or malice. 

I wouldn't call it a win-win at all.

But it would be enough of a compromise that it wouldn't as bad of a lose-lose. 

I think the reason so many women go the resentful and hostile duty sex and carrot-dangling route is they assume the H will walk out the door and take his resources and child rearing with him.

That may certainly be the case in some instances but I think the reality is it would be far less than assumed.

And with the sense of entitlement and manipulation out if the equation, there would be less hostility and bitterness factoring in and whichever route they take could be more cooperative and amicable.

The W could be free of having to have sex that repulses her her and the H can make an informed decision on how he wants to manage his sexuality going forward. 

It's not only honorable and "right," it is also pragmatic.


----------



## Holdingontoit

MEM2020 said:


> sometimes the H has let himself go - some women have a need for their partners to stay fit. But more often the unmet needs relate to: edge and novelty. Basically he’s become too nice and too patterned.


This is an important point and we need to be able to make it this concisely.

It is similar but not the same as discussing alpha and beta. But those points often start a flame war of "there is no such thing, and even if there is it doesn't work, and even if it works it is unethical". I am guessing that discussing edge and novelty will not start similar flame wars.


----------



## uhtred

I feel like this sort of situation really needs the couple to discuss. Maybe you have a separate thread on this?

No one should be expected to have sex that is painful, but at the same time no one should live in a relationship where they are constantly frustrated by the lack of sex. The things that I think matter:

The person who doesn't want sex should acknowledge how important it is to their partner, and the person who does should acknowledge how difficult it is for their partner. This needs to be open - its very hurtful to suggest that one person or the other is being unreasonable - unless there is some very clear reason that that really is the case.

Have medical and drug causes been investigated? Birth control and antidepressants can completely kill someone's sex drive. Its worth a lot of effort to find alternatives. 

Are there any alternatives? "sex" means different things to different people. Not everyone needs PIV to be happy. 

Tiredness is a completely reasonable reason - if its true. OTOH my wife claims "tiredness" but is never too tired to do the things she wants to do. (its OK for her not to want sex, but lying about the reason doesn't help things). 




PatriciaLee said:


> As a woman who is currently struggling to fulfill her husband's sexual needs, this post hits hard.
> 
> I spent so many years having sex with my husband when I didn't want to. Because our sex drives don't match. Because sex was painful. When birthcontrol killed my sex drive. Because I was exhausted from having newborn children, who didn't sleep more than 2-3 hours at a time for each of their lives. I still had sex when I didn't want to, to make sure his needs were being met.
> 
> Doing this caused me to reach a horrendous breaking point though. As much as I want to continue to meet his needs, I physically feel ill now. I feel like an absolute monster. I try to just do it to meet his needs, I know it is important. It's just killing me mentally.


----------



## happiness27

Livvie said:


> I read many pages of the posts. Wow!!!!
> 
> Many of these women want to be asexual in their marriages, without negative judgment. WITHOUT negative judgment or consequences!! They completely fail to understand that marriage is by definition a sexual relationship. They truly don't understand why sex is viewed as an important part of marriage and are very very mad that it is.
> 
> That's the part I don't understand, at all, how on Earth they got the idea that marriage doesn't imply a sexual relationship.
> 
> These women want a friendship/roommate/companion, no sex.
> 
> Anyone have any idea the genesis of their mindset that they should entitled to marriage when all they are going to provide in the relationship is opposite sex friendship??


There is such a thing as sexual incompatibility, though. Unless one can delve deeper into conversation with "they" - women who aren't very interested in sex with their spouse - it's not fair to assume that they are solely to blame and being evil and nefarious. 

Bad sex is really ****y - and women get the shaft in the O department (statistically) a lot. 

Let me ask you guys: How often would you feel like having sex if you only orgasmed 1 in 3 or less times you had sex? You can't even imagine that happening, perhaps. But (again, statistically), women have this happen. It's very discouraging to try and get amorous and you hardly get time to get turned on before PIV and, well, you're not even halfway there. You just give up after awhile. 

If you are communicative and try to communicate your desires, and your spouse gets miffed or defensive at you for not liking what he's doing already, then it's even worse. Now you've p.o.'d your spouse and you end up taking care of his feelings instead.

Many women are VERY VERY different from men when it comes to sex. If a guy responds to visual stimuli and physically touching his penis, women appear to be more mentally stimulated. A guy trying to approach a woman with the same technique that works on him, is going to probably run into trouble with a longterm partner after awhile. 

That vaginal area is an amazing landscape of sensitivity - but it is far from the only area, same goes for breasts. Women can mentally stimulate themselves and take very little time to orgasm. But get a rough hand on a clit and she could recoil. 

Strangely, oddly...I see these posts from men who are making up stories in their heads about how she is depriving him with evil purpose when, if they were to actually care about being successful with at least some of the women, they would get out of theirselves and take a look at how their woman is sexually stimulated. 

Are there women who actually hate sex? or are they women who just hate bad sex? Yes, there are incompatible couples - but I'm talking about compatible couples who are having trouble in the sex department. 

Sometimes I think porn has ruined things for a lot of people. They watch porn and all these hot and ready women and think "Why can't my wife be like that?" Well, if your wife wanted to and was getting paid to do porn, she could probably fake all that stuff like they are faking it in the porn videos. It's FAKE - that's why it looks like it's working. In actuality, it's a bunch of camera and director people telling the people in front of the camera "Now, do this to her and now stick your finger in her mouth like a fish hook, now lick here and swallow the whole thing"...etc. It's fake, fake, fake.

It's changed people's expectations in the bedroom.

Remove the porn and the expectations and porn thoughts and look at the person in front of you. 

You don't need *game* - you need to be connected in some ways. You need to pore your curiosity and admiration into your lover for the sake of loving them. Every part of them - and VOICE it...not just during lovemaking or for the sole purpose of seduction - but to build some good feelings...the same thing YOU want, you need to give, without expectation. If you scared them off at some point in the past, then you have to have a discussion about that, apologize for not realizing it and get a do-over. 

And WOMEN - you need to talk to him. It's really hard to do this. But both of you are expressing your love for each other through sex - and getting what you want from this is not something that just automatically happens in a longterm relationship especially. It's so easy to feel hotness for a new lover - because it's like unwrapping a new present, it's automatically exciting as you play it out in your head. But, look at that guy in front of you and imagine your life without him. Neither person should take the other for granted - because anybody could be gone in a moment. We are so complacent and spoiled sometimes we don't even think about this possibility.

The reality of sex with a longterm partner takes a whole lot more effort. You have to bring the variety you seek in porn into how you approach each other instead - looking for little details of admiration for each other instead of overlooking those details because you think you've seen them all. You haven't. There's always something new to try and admire, something new to say to each other. That is the kind of variety that builds an amazing happiness between two people who have been together a long time.


----------



## happiness27

uhtred said:


> I feel like this sort of situation really needs the couple to discuss. Maybe you have a separate thread on this?
> 
> No one should be expected to have sex that is painful, but at the same time no one should live in a relationship where they are constantly frustrated by the lack of sex. The things that I think matter:
> 
> The person who doesn't want sex should acknowledge how important it is to their partner, and the person who does should acknowledge how difficult it is for their partner. This needs to be open - its very hurtful to suggest that one person or the other is being unreasonable - unless there is some very clear reason that that really is the case.
> 
> Have medical and drug causes been investigated? Birth control and antidepressants can completely kill someone's sex drive. Its worth a lot of effort to find alternatives.
> 
> Are there any alternatives? "sex" means different things to different people. Not everyone needs PIV to be happy.
> 
> Tiredness is a completely reasonable reason - if its true. OTOH my wife claims "tiredness" but is never too tired to do the things she wants to do. (its OK for her not to want sex, but lying about the reason doesn't help things).


People do what they WANT to do. This is just me and I admit I know nothing of your wife, but if I don't want sex, sometimes it's been a dry spell between orgasms and I don't have a lot of hope of having an orgasm when that happens. Imagine if you only had an orgasm 30% of the time when you had sex - I know, guys can't even imagine that happening because it rarely happens to men. But, for women, this statistically happens. So, you end up having sex so HE can have an orgasm. Doesn't make it an exciting prospect. 

I really think that couples need to get a whole lot more revealing to each other - women especially - and men need to listen, not defend. Women are amazing sexual creatures but they need to get their sexual switch flipped and men and women need to talk about how to do that - instead of making up stories in their heads about each other and not doing what it takes to enjoy sex together again. Pressuring a woman to have sex so that the man can feel like a man and feel loved and satisfied is really leaving the woman out of the equation because she deserves these experiences also. If she's not getting the O on a regular basis, I mean, who wants to get all hot and bothered and not at least get some kind of happiness out of it?


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

happiness27 said:


> There is such a thing as sexual incompatibility, though. Unless one can delve deeper into conversation with "they" - women who aren't very interested in sex with their spouse - it's not fair to assume that they are solely to blame and being evil and nefarious.
> 
> Bad sex is really sh*tty - and women get the shaft in the O department (statistically) a lot.
> Something many of us are well aware of and have worked very hard to rectify. Sadly, to little avail in many cases.
> 
> Let me ask you guys: How often would you feel like having sex if you only orgasmed 1 in 3 or less times you had sex?
> You can't even imagine that happening, perhaps. But (again, statistically), women have this happen. It's very discouraging to try and get amorous and you hardly get time to get turned on before PIV and, well, you're not even halfway there. You just give up after awhile.
> Interestingly, my wife is quite adamant that she enjoys the sex, (the touching, the bonding, the togetherness) independent of the O. In fact, she's quite adamant that I shouldn't even worry about her O at all. Some women on this site have said the same. So either there's a significant chunk of the female population for whom this isn't a big deal... or they're lying about it. I'm inclined (maybe due largely to being male) that if women were having more O's they would want more sex. But when they say it's not important, that comes across like a real slap in the face. It's like it's just too much effort (to teach him, or just to get in the mood and allow it to happen). So who's not putting the effort into creating a good sex life? It's not always the man.
> 
> 
> If you are communicative and try to communicate your desires, and your spouse gets miffed or defensive at you for not liking what he's doing already, then it's even worse. Now you've p.o.'d your spouse and you end up taking care of his feelings instead.
> Yep. Nonreceptiveness is a killer. Ego is a killer. Again, at least as far as the undersexed men on this site are concerned, they've done very well setting aside ego. I'm certainly open to instruction. I'll bet any man who's genuinely concerned with his wife's pleasure is the same.
> 
> Many women are VERY VERY different from men when it comes to sex. If a guy responds to visual stimuli and physically touching his penis, women appear to be more mentally stimulated. A guy trying to approach a woman with the same technique that works on him, is going to probably run into trouble with a longterm partner after awhile.
> Again, I think any guy who cares enough to pay attention figures this out rather quickly.
> 
> That vaginal area is an amazing landscape of sensitivity - but it is far from the only area, same goes for breasts. *Women can mentally stimulate themselves and take very little time to orgasm.* But get a rough hand on a clit and she could recoil.
> Indeed, men can be rough. Insensitive physically as well as emotionally. But again, those of us who really care work diligently on compensating for our natural Neanderthal tendencies. But your bolded sentence only serves to reinforce our impression that if she's not cumming, she's not into it in the first place. If she was really into it (or at least with us), she'd have that mental prep going pretty strong (so long as we were also taking care of all the prep and non-genital aspects of lovemaking).
> 
> Strangely, oddly...I see these posts from men who are making up stories in their heads about how she is depriving him with evil purpose when, if they were to actually care about being successful with at least some of the women, they would get out of theirselves and take a look at how their woman is sexually stimulated.
> That assumes their women actually are/can be sexually stimulated. Or that they are willing to work with their husbands to find mutual satisfaction rather than lazily say "it's not working, so I quit."
> 
> Are there women who actually hate sex? or are they women who just hate bad sex? Yes, there are incompatible couples - but I'm talking about compatible couples who are having trouble in the sex department.
> 
> Sometimes I think porn has ruined things for a lot of people. They watch porn and all these hot and ready women and think "Why can't my wife be like that?" Well, if your wife wanted to and was getting paid to do porn, she could probably fake all that stuff like they are faking it in the porn videos. It's FAKE - that's why it looks like it's working. In actuality, it's a bunch of camera and director people telling the people in front of the camera "Now, do this to her and now stick your finger in her mouth like a fish hook, now lick here and swallow the whole thing"...etc. It's fake, fake, fake.
> 
> It's changed people's expectations in the bedroom.
> 
> Remove the porn and the expectations and porn thoughts and look at the person in front of you.
> 
> Well, for many, this description is a reversal of cause and effect. Men aren't dissatisfied in the bedroom from having watched porn; they are watching porn because the bedroom is a cold, unwelcoming place. I'll let you in on a little secret. Most men know it's all FAKE, but they'll take fake when the alternative is nothing, or insulting.
> 
> You don't need *game* - you need to be connected in some ways. You need to pore your curiosity and admiration into your lover for the sake of loving them. Every part of them - and VOICE it...not just during lovemaking or for the sole purpose of seduction - but to build some good feelings...the same thing YOU want, you need to give, without expectation.
> YES! YES! YES!
> If only that's how it actually worked. Let me tie this to your previous mention of the frequencies of Os and how men can't even conceive of not orgasming. Some of my most memorable and fondest encounters were ones in which she Od and I didn't. Times when I was so completely and all-consumingly focused on her, and was able to detect and sense and revel in her pleasure. There is nothing so satisfying as knowing you've helped her not just O, but fully enjoy the entire experience of being made the center of your universe. The joy continues as you see her fall into a deep blissful, uninterrupted sleep. And then wake up the next morning full of spirit, walking around the house singing!
> But even when that happens, and it yields no greater frequency or enthusiasm in the future, it can be baffling. Absolutely baffling.
> 
> If you scared them off at some point in the past, then you have to have a discussion about that, apologize for not realizing it and get a do-over.
> 
> And WOMEN - you need to talk to him. It's really hard to do this. But both of you are expressing your love for each other through sex - and getting what you want from this is not something that just automatically happens in a longterm relationship especially. It's so easy to feel hotness for a new lover - because it's like unwrapping a new present, it's automatically exciting as you play it out in your head.
> 
> The reality of sex with a longterm partner takes a whole lot more effort. You have to bring the variety in in how you approach each other - looking for little details of admiration for each other instead of overlooking those details because you think you've seen them all. You haven't. There's always something new to try and admire, something new to say to each other. That is the kind of variety that builds an amazing happiness between two people who have been together a long time.
> Again, great in theory, but not always generating anything in actual practice.


----------



## uhtred

@happiness27 I know you are talking from your experience, but some of the people in LD/HD relationships here have had a very different experience. To get an idea of some of the issues, take a look at the posts at asexuality.org. Many of these people (men and women) simply do not want sex. They do not feel sexual attraction, and have no desire to do so. Some have had orgasms, they just don't enjoy them. Its really quite fascinating - a very different view on this situation. 


I know that in my case, the issue is not lack of O's or my lack of willingness to do things for her. I am far more likely to go without an O in an encounter than she is. Nothing magic, she likes me to use a vibrator on her and she almost always has an O. I always offer to give her another, but she almost never accepts. I have asked and am happy to do anything she has ever asked for or hinted at. (I enjoy pleasing her). Before you ask - yes, I'm very happy to take my time doing things for her, but she always gets aroused and then wants me to finish her quickly. 

She has made it clear that when we do have sex she enjoys it, she just doesn't want it very often. She uses the term "tired" to mean that for whatever reason she does not desire sex at the moment. 

You might imagine that she has been pretending for the last 30 years. Possible I guess, but if so, what can be said about someone who has a partner who has shown a willingness to do anything that they want, but nevertheless she decides to fake constantly, then because of her lack of enjoyment constantly rejects sex. Could be, but it seems really unlikely to me. 


I'm replying because the idea that the HD partners in these situations are somehow inadequate gets repeated with some frequency. The idea seems reasonable, most people enjoy frequent sex with a partner whom they love and who is a good lover. Its just not always the case. There are men and women here who are willing and able to do anything for their partners, but who are still constantly rejected. Some of them move on, some don't. 

The worry is always there of course. I'm in a long term monogamous relationship, so there is no way to test if I'm actually a terrible lover. I doubt it though, my previous partner from long ago gave every indication of enthusiasm. (it is such a strong temptation to cheat though - just to know that it isn't me...)


You have a normal sex drive: you want sex when its good. Most people are like that, but not all. 





happiness27 said:


> People do what they WANT to do. This is just me and I admit I know nothing of your wife, but if I don't want sex, sometimes it's been a dry spell between orgasms and I don't have a lot of hope of having an orgasm when that happens. Imagine if you only had an orgasm 30% of the time when you had sex - I know, guys can't even imagine that happening because it rarely happens to men. But, for women, this statistically happens. So, you end up having sex so HE can have an orgasm. Doesn't make it an exciting prospect.
> 
> I really think that couples need to get a whole lot more revealing to each other - women especially - and men need to listen, not defend. Women are amazing sexual creatures but they need to get their sexual switch flipped and men and women need to talk about how to do that - instead of making up stories in their heads about each other and not doing what it takes to enjoy sex together again. Pressuring a woman to have sex so that the man can feel like a man and feel loved and satisfied is really leaving the woman out of the equation because she deserves these experiences also. If she's not getting the O on a regular basis, I mean, who wants to get all hot and bothered and not at least get some kind of happiness out of it?


----------



## NobodySpecial

happiness27 said:


> People do what they WANT to do. This is just me and I admit I know nothing of your wife, but if I don't want sex, sometimes it's been a dry spell between orgasms and I don't have a lot of hope of having an orgasm when that happens. Imagine if you only had an orgasm 30% of the time when you had sex - I know, guys can't even imagine that happening because it rarely happens to men. But, for women, this statistically happens. So, you end up having sex so HE can have an orgasm. Doesn't make it an exciting prospect.
> 
> I really think that couples need to get a whole lot more revealing to each other - women especially - and men need to listen, not defend. Women are amazing sexual creatures but they need to get their sexual switch flipped and men and women need to talk about how to do that - instead of making up stories in their heads about each other and not doing what it takes to enjoy sex together again. Pressuring a woman to have sex so that the man can feel like a man and feel loved and satisfied is really leaving the woman out of the equation because she deserves these experiences also. If she's not getting the O on a regular basis, I mean, who wants to get all hot and bothered and not at least get some kind of happiness out of it?


This and your post above may not be appropriate for everyone, but I would bet my hat, if I had one, that it is gospel for a great many. Good on you.


----------



## NobodySpecial

uhtred said:


> @happiness27 I know you are talking from your experience, but some of the people in LD/HD relationships here have had a very different experience. To get an idea of some of the issues, take a look at the posts at asexuality.org. Many of these people (men and women) simply do not want sex. They do not feel sexual attraction, and have no desire to do so. Some have had orgasms, they just don't enjoy them. Its really quite fascinating - a very different view on this situation.
> 
> 
> I know that in my case, the issue is not lack of O's or my lack of willingness to do things for her. I am far more likely to go without an O in an encounter than she is. Nothing magic, she likes me to use a vibrator on her and she almost always has an O. I always offer to give her another, but she almost never accepts. I have asked and am happy to do anything she has ever asked for or hinted at. (I enjoy pleasing her). Before you ask - yes, I'm very happy to take my time doing things for her, but she always gets aroused and then wants me to finish her quickly.
> 
> She has made it clear that when we do have sex she enjoys it, she just doesn't want it very often. She uses the term* "tired" to mean that for whatever reason she does not desire sex at the moment*.


Niggling doubt in my mind reacts to this kind of thing. It seems clear that what happiness is describing is not applicable to you (unless she is actually faking O's to get you in the ok I am done mindset). But saying things like tired to mean something else is hard to reconcile in my mind. Like more of an emotional/mental restriction/ reaction/ defense that she is unwilling or unable to articulate. Does SHE read your reference on asexuality and identify with it?



> You might imagine that she has been pretending for the last 30 years. Possible I guess, but if so, what can be said about someone who has a partner who has shown a willingness to do anything that they want, but nevertheless she decides to fake constantly, then because of her lack of enjoyment constantly rejects sex. Could be, but it seems really unlikely to me.


It certainly does not fit with what happiness is describing. But somehow I can't let go of walking some kind of avoidance tight rope. May just be me.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

happiness27 said:


> People do what they WANT to do. This is just me and I admit I know nothing of your wife, but if I don't want sex, sometimes it's been a dry spell between orgasms and I don't have a lot of hope of having an orgasm when that happens. Imagine if you only had an orgasm 30% of the time when you had sex - I know, guys can't even imagine that happening because it rarely happens to men. But, for women, this statistically happens. So, you end up having sex so HE can have an orgasm. Doesn't make it an exciting prospect.
> 
> I really think that couples need to get a whole lot more revealing to each other - women especially - and men need to listen, not defend. *Women are amazing sexual creatures but they need to get their sexual switch flipped and men and women need to talk about how to do that *- instead of making up stories in their heads about each other and not doing what it takes to enjoy sex together again. Pressuring a woman to have sex so that the man can feel like a man and feel loved and satisfied is really leaving the woman out of the equation because she deserves these experiences also. If she's not getting the O on a regular basis, I mean, who wants to get all hot and bothered and not at least get some kind of happiness out of it?


It's great that you understand the importance of doing that, and presumable have been willing to to, and have done that in your relationship. Doesn't help those who's partners haven't. In fact it's even worse than you imagine for these partners. Not only are their wives not responding to them, they are basically telling their men "you're not worth the effort to make it better." Ouch.

We all want that amazing sexual creature. Far more than we want porn. But when she absolutely refuses to show....


----------



## happiness27

uhtred said:


> @happiness27 I know you are talking from your experience, but some of the people in LD/HD relationships here have had a very different experience. To get an idea of some of the issues, take a look at the posts at asexuality.org. Many of these people (men and women) simply do not want sex. They do not feel sexual attraction, and have no desire to do so. Some have had orgasms, they just don't enjoy them. Its really quite fascinating - a very different view on this situation.
> 
> 
> I know that in my case, the issue is not lack of O's or my lack of willingness to do things for her. I am far more likely to go without an O in an encounter than she is. Nothing magic, she likes me to use a vibrator on her and she almost always has an O. I always offer to give her another, but she almost never accepts. I have asked and am happy to do anything she has ever asked for or hinted at. (I enjoy pleasing her). Before you ask - yes, I'm very happy to take my time doing things for her, but she always gets aroused and then wants me to finish her quickly.
> 
> She has made it clear that when we do have sex she enjoys it, she just doesn't want it very often. She uses the term "tired" to mean that for whatever reason she does not desire sex at the moment.
> 
> You might imagine that she has been pretending for the last 30 years. Possible I guess, but if so, what can be said about someone who has a partner who has shown a willingness to do anything that they want, but nevertheless she decides to fake constantly, then because of her lack of enjoyment constantly rejects sex. Could be, but it seems really unlikely to me.
> 
> 
> I'm replying because the idea that the HD partners in these situations are somehow inadequate gets repeated with some frequency. The idea seems reasonable, most people enjoy frequent sex with a partner whom they love and who is a good lover. Its just not always the case. There are men and women here who are willing and able to do anything for their partners, but who are still constantly rejected. Some of them move on, some don't.
> 
> The worry is always there of course. I'm in a long term monogamous relationship, so there is no way to test if I'm actually a terrible lover. I doubt it though, my previous partner from long ago gave every indication of enthusiasm. (it is such a strong temptation to cheat though - just to know that it isn't me...)
> 
> 
> You have a normal sex drive: you want sex when its good. Most people are like that, but not all.


As I have said about five times recently, sometimes partners are incompatible sex partners. That doesn't mean they aren't compatible with someone else. But, if partners are talking, there can be some epiphanies come out of discussion that would improve their sex life. I don't understand this thing: "But she won't talk to me" - wtf? My husband wouldn't talk to me either and I stayed ON his ass - for YEARS. I get why he was so inward - it was his upbringing. But, like I told him: "You're an adult now and they are all gone (deceased) so it's time to do things differently." and we went into therapy, both individually and together and I would not let him slack. I WILL NOT let him slack on talking. The reward is a lot of happiness instead of miserable silence and playing immature head games. I hate that. The more we improve our relationship, the happier we are both individually and together.

Also, there are some women - and I am one - who prefer quality over quantity. I would rather have a full afternoon of sweat swapping than repeat sex every day. I have a lot of things in life I want to accomplish and these things take time and mental energy. Switching my brain over to sex repeatedly every single day is not something I want to do. I have to have free space in my head with no tasks on my plate or hanging over my head to be able to do that. Sometimes I just want the pleasure of resting. There are many pleasures in life and I'm very cerebral in how I enjoy those things. Sex every other day or every third day would be great for me - then we can O as many times as we want and I can focus. This every day sex deal - what is that, some men's magazine expectation? Jeez, doesn't quality matter? I mean, is it some frequency contest?

I think that what you focus on becomes bigger on your mind. If rejection is what a guy focuses on, the rejection becomes bigger. If a guy takes a positive attitude, that's HOT to a woman. Subtle, flirty stuff where you act like, yeah, you're noticing her - the sheen on her hair, the profile of her face, the bounce of her breasts, the roundness of her ass..., women dig being scoped out from a distance and it's a turn on. And a guy who's caring for what the two of them have built together - a guy who's into nest-building, I guess you'd say. 

If a woman gives a crap enough to clarify "not now but I'll be much better at X time" and keeps her promise, then you have a relationship going instead of a confounding situation where a guy has nothing to go on. This takes two people engaging. A lot of times, it takes therapy to get these issues out in the open.

Honestly, if a couple has serious sexual incompatibility issues that they have come to a conclusion on together with a therapist and they are totally honest with each other - then there are still solutions the couple can come up with. They can part ways and still be respectful of each other, they can join swingers for the higher sexed partner or open their marriage - but, for heaven's sake, it seems ridiculous to moan and groan for the rest of your life, bemoaning your plight in life. Solutions - get solutions. Maybe it's a feeling of being stuck, but no one is ever "stuck" forever except by their own permission - it's just whether or not they feel like they can live with whatever set of consequences they end up choosing. 

I just think that coming to a forum to complain about one's sex life all the time is avoiding taking real life actions. It's what a person does when they are in a stuck pace for awhile but, after awhile, it's just a life of complaining and an addiction to sympathy-seeking. The person who is going to best take care of you is YOU. 

You said she uses "tired" as an excuse. Well, when is she not tired? Is there a better time of day that would work? I know I am better in the afternoon (and fortunately my husband works nights) than I am at midnight. I'm not going to have sex well at midnight. So, our sex life is more centered around the middle of the day. I like to be cuddled in the morning but he likes to pop out bed and get coffee. So, we split that - sometimes he gets up and makes coffee, other days, he comes over and hugs and cuddles me awake. I'm just saying that there are ways to make things work - and if a person feels like they have tried everything, including sex therapy and they are still getting nowhere, then make a different choice.

As far as vibrator use, hey, peace/respect to whatever works for somebody. However, I will share my experience with vibrators and it was that I had to get away from them. My husband was overseas working for a long time and so I tried the vibrator route out of not having my partner. Those things are really powerful and, for me, they are quite different than person-to-person sex. You get acclimated to that and it's hard to O without them at first if you give them up. I had to relearn how to have sex with my husband when I pitched them. I won't go back to them either - it was like sex on crack. The O is good but it interfered with my relationship connection I wanted with my husband. I like having my husband writhing on top of me while I'm screaming. A vibrator can't do that. 

That's just my experience but hey, vibrators and sex toys are extremely popular for people. When I came up the sexual pike, those things weren't easily available like they are these days and I was alive many decades before the internet - so porn wasn't in my scope of experiences most of my early sexual life. I didn't get trained on those things so I tend to rely more on my interpersonal human skills.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

happiness27 said:


> Also, there are some women - and I am one - who prefer quality over quantity. I would rather have a full afternoon of sweat swapping than repeat sex every day. I have a lot of things in life I want to accomplish and these things take time and mental energy. Switching my brain over to sex repeatedly every single day is not something I want to do. I have to have free space in my head with no tasks on my plate or hanging over my head to be able to do that. Sometimes I just want the pleasure of resting. There are many pleasures in life and I'm very cerebral in how I enjoy those things. Sex every other day or every third day would be great for me - then we can O as many times as we want and I can focus. This every day sex deal - what is that, some men's magazine expectation? Jeez, doesn't quality matter? I mean, is it some frequency contest?
> 
> You really love jumping to conclusions. Has anybody here said anything that indicates a lack of concern for quality? Do you not think we've tried to deliver exactly what you're talking about?
> 
> I think that what you focus on becomes bigger on your mind.
> You focus on what needs fixed. If it's important, as sex is in marriage, it's inherently big.
> If rejection is what a guy focuses on, the rejection becomes bigger. If a guy takes a positive attitude, that's HOT to a woman.
> How long is this positive attitude supposed to hold out? For many all that leads to is decades of manufactured positivity, leading to NOTHING but waking up one day and realizing your life is over and you've had wasted your one chance at having a good all around life
> Subtle, flirty stuff where you act like, yeah, you're noticing her - the sheen on her hair, the profile of her face, the bounce of her breasts, the roundness of her ass..., women dig being scoped out from a distance and it's a turn on. And a guy who's caring for what the two of them have built together - a guy who's into nest-building, I guess you'd say.
> With every passing paragraph, you describe me more an more. That was my natural behavior for decades. Not because I was angling for anything, but rather because that's exactly how I felt about her. For a while (after about 15 YEARS of very infrequent, unenthusiastic sex) I finally got broke down. It was very hard to show that kind of appreciation. But after a very short period of not showing such appreciation,_ mostly as an exercise in self preservation (NOT laziness)_, I decide_ even then, after all I'd been through,_ that it as more important for her to know how magnificent she is, and how I still crave all those aspects of her, than it was for me to protect my emotional stability. After all, I'm strong. I can take it. I can take anything. She definitely appreciated this. Did it help put us on a path to something more than vanilla sex once a week (in rare cases) to (usually more like) once a month? Nope.
> 
> 
> I just think that coming to a forum to complain about one's sex life all the time is avoiding taking real life actions.
> This is positively insulting, and demeaning and utterly dismissive and completely lacking in any kind of empathy. You think guys come to this forum and cry pity-poor-me the first time their wife said "not tonight, I've got a headache?" Please. Take some time to read some of the personal stories of the men on this site. We're talking DECADES of of partner non-interest. We're talking about positively exhausting, grinding effort, day in-day out, year after year, decade after decade. We're talking about people who have made it their life's mission to "take real life actions." All to no avail.


----------



## uhtred

Unfortunately she has a very difficult (essentially impossible) talking about this. She thinks she is normal, and that I am the unusual one in wanting frequent and varied sex. That said she often says that she *wants* more frequent sex, decides to do so, but then comes up with endless reasons why not in each particular case.

Based on many years of this, if I showed here the article on asexuality, she would get offended and explain that she *does* want sex. She would talk about how she did things I especially liked last week (OK 2 weeks ago or was it a month) and how she was trying but was so (tired / feeling poorly / excuse of the day). I've approached it as gently as I could, approached it directly etc. Just no goo.

The thing is, we are not really sexless. Sex is just infrequent and limited, haven't done PIV in over a year because after a few-month gap she found it too uncomfortable to do again. 

When we do have sex though she gives every impression of enjoying it, says we should do it more often, etc. 

Its really strange. There could be some more serious problem (CSA?), but no way to bring it up. 






NobodySpecial said:


> Niggling doubt in my mind reacts to this kind of thing. It seems clear that what happiness is describing is not applicable to you (unless she is actually faking O's to get you in the ok I am done mindset). But saying things like tired to mean something else is hard to reconcile in my mind. Like more of an emotional/mental restriction/ reaction/ defense that she is unwilling or unable to articulate. Does SHE read your reference on asexuality and identify with it?
> 
> 
> It certainly does not fit with what happiness is describing. But somehow I can't let go of walking some kind of avoidance tight rope. May just be me.


----------



## happiness27

uhtred said:


> Unfortunately she has a very difficult (essentially impossible) talking about this. She thinks she is normal, and that I am the unusual one in wanting frequent and varied sex. That said she often says that she *wants* more frequent sex, decides to do so, but then comes up with endless reasons why not in each particular case.
> 
> Based on many years of this, if I showed here the article on asexuality, she would get offended and explain that she *does* want sex. She would talk about how she did things I especially liked last week (OK 2 weeks ago or was it a month) and how she was trying but was so (tired / feeling poorly / excuse of the day). I've approached it as gently as I could, approached it directly etc. Just no goo.
> 
> The thing is, we are not really sexless. Sex is just infrequent and limited, haven't done PIV in over a year because after a few-month gap she found it too uncomfortable to do again.
> 
> When we do have sex though she gives every impression of enjoying it, says we should do it more often, etc.
> 
> Its really strange. There could be some more serious problem (CSA?), but no way to bring it up.


Have you two been to a sex therapist?

Also, how old is your wife?

Regarding the painful PIV, in my current (and longest) marriage (28 years), I had that happen. But there are solutions for it. My husband had worked overseas quite awhile and we saw each other infrequently. When he came home for good, I hadn't had PIV in so long, I guess, that PIV was painful. So weird. Well, I wasn't going to put up with that, so I went to a couple of doctors and ended up doing pelvic physical therapy. You can google it so I don't have to describe it here - but it was several weeks of it plus the doc had me on a couple of meds to relax my tight muscles in my vagina. It really helped but it was a bit of work and thankfully my husband was pretty darned understanding.

I have a fantastic husband who has, in the past, been the worst communicator ever. I knew that lack of communication leads to a great deal of unhappiness for both people and I value our relationship and our happiness far more than the so-called comfort of conflict avoidance. 

I can see where your wife would be offended by you showing her an article on asexuality as she's likely not asexual. You guys just need to get into therapy and get your voices heard with a good therapist to guide you. However, let me say that I do admire you for bringing up the issues with her. A husband who's willing to reach out like that - that means he really cares and is willing to work at things.

That PIV problem is solvable. Not many people know about pelvic floor pain and that there is therapy for it.


----------



## happiness27

Also, there are some women - and I am one - who prefer quality over quantity. I would rather have a full afternoon of sweat swapping than repeat sex every day. I have a lot of things in life I want to accomplish and these things take time and mental energy. Switching my brain over to sex repeatedly every single day is not something I want to do. I have to have free space in my head with no tasks on my plate or hanging over my head to be able to do that. Sometimes I just want the pleasure of resting. There are many pleasures in life and I'm very cerebral in how I enjoy those things. Sex every other day or every third day would be great for me - then we can O as many times as we want and I can focus. This every day sex deal - what is that, some men's magazine expectation? Jeez, doesn't quality matter? I mean, is it some frequency contest?

You really love jumping to conclusions. Has anybody here said anything that indicates a lack of concern for quality? Do you not think we've tried to deliver exactly what you're talking about?

I think that what you focus on becomes bigger on your mind. 
You focus on what needs fixed. If it's important, as sex is in marriage, it's inherently big. 
If rejection is what a guy focuses on, the rejection becomes bigger. If a guy takes a positive attitude, that's HOT to a woman. 
How long is this positive attitude supposed to hold out? For many all that leads to is decades of manufactured positivity, leading to NOTHING but waking up one day and realizing your life is over and you've had wasted your one chance at having a good all around life
Subtle, flirty stuff where you act like, yeah, you're noticing her - the sheen on her hair, the profile of her face, the bounce of her breasts, the roundness of her ass..., women dig being scoped out from a distance and it's a turn on. And a guy who's caring for what the two of them have built together - a guy who's into nest-building, I guess you'd say. 
With every passing paragraph, you describe me more an more. That was my natural behavior for decades. Not because I was angling for anything, but rather because that's exactly how I felt about her. For a while (after about 15 YEARS of very infrequent, unenthusiastic sex) I finally got broke down. It was very hard to show that kind of appreciation. But after a very short period of not showing such appreciation, mostly as an exercise in self preservation (NOT laziness), I decide even then, after all I'd been through, that it as more important for her to know how magnificent she is, and how I still crave all those aspects of her, than it was for me to protect my emotional stability. After all, I'm strong. I can take it. I can take anything. She definitely appreciated this. Did it help put us on a path to something more than vanilla sex once a week (in rare cases) to (usually more like) once a month? Nope. 


I just think that coming to a forum to complain about one's sex life all the time is avoiding taking real life actions. 
This is positively insulting, and demeaning and utterly dismissive and completely lacking in any kind of empathy. You think guys come to this forum and cry pity-poor-me the first time their wife said "not tonight, I've got a headache?" Please. Take some time to read some of the personal stories of the men on this site. We're talking DECADES of of partner non-interest. We're talking about positively exhausting, grinding effort, day in-day out, year after year, decade after decade. We're talking about people who have made it their life's mission to "take real life actions." All to no avail.

*****************************************************************************************************
Did you guys ever go to a sex therapist? Why did you stay for so long if you were unhappy? Were there other things more important than sex that made you stay?

I had a sexless marriage for 9 years. I was vocal about it, too. Not mean but at the end, I was blunt - either he made an effort to have sex more than once a month or our marriage was over. He refused to go to therapy. It did not improve and despite me having 3 kids under age eight, I left. 

I outlined options above - have you ever discussed any of those with your significant other? Have you two gone to therapy ever to address the lack of discussion about what would be a better solution sexually for you?

You wrote: "This is positively insulting, and demeaning and utterly dismissive and completely lacking in any kind of empathy."

Yes, I'm tough love and I know that. If you are unhappy, do something about it. Take an action. Go to therapy and make a plan. Coming on a forum group and complaining does nothing to solve your problem. As I said, in my own case, I lasted 9 years and mostly because I did not have a college degree, had not worked and had three small children. It was miserable. Nobody supported my decision to leave - I was supposed to suck it up and put up with the misery. No. I love sex. I think it IS an important part of marriage - but it's also up to each and every one of us to navigate our life choices. If we gnash our teeth in regret - we must point our fingers at the person responsible for those choices and it's ME. 

That's a very hard realization - but it's the most empowering one. When you look around at who is to blame for your life choices and that blame lies with someone else, you have no control over what they decide or what they do. But you DO have control over YOU and only YOU. 

Complaining becomes addictive after awhile. Seeking sympathy gets addictive after awhile. If you want to change your life, do something different - but recognize if you stay, that is a choice YOU are making. Nobody else is making that decision.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

Have you ever considered you are doing something wrong? Like are you treating her like a Disney Princess in bed instead of your own personal [email protected]? I know she had your kids and cries at romcoms, but there may be an inner sl*t lurking inside. 

All those stupid shades of Grey movies aren't watched and read en masse by women for their acting. Good girls, even the ones you'd never suspect watch that trash. Sometimes all it takes is a hand around their jaw/neckline to display a sense of dominance that can send her over the top.

I only ask because I was doing it all wrong for many years, myself. Maybe you just need to change it up a little, I hate hearing people resign themselves to monastic lifestyles. Get a gym membership, eat some red meat, get in touch with your inner caveman. Ask yourself what would Paleolithic Man have done? Maybe it wont help, but just a thought...


----------



## MEM2020

H27,
I absolutely love your unfiltered - sincere - constructive input. 

I’m going to sort of double down here - because I believe you have raised some key themes. 
1. It is WAY WAY more common for the woman not to O
2. Enough men react badly to that outcome - for women to feel some pressure to be less than fully honest about this outcome

There can be no faster route to a sexually broken marriage then for the woman to have to protect her partners fragile ego by pretending it was great. 

Which brings me to a very common pattern on TAM. Man says: wife always orgasms, wife avoids sex like the plague

I say: maybe she orgasms and maybe she doesn’t - but the overall experience is not good for her - otherwise she wouldn’t act like this. Ask her - why the overall experience isn’t good. 

So - at risk of sounding like a jerk - I don’t think you can get an honest answer to that type question if your marriage is based on your wife unconditionally feeding your ego. 

Fwiw - one of the very few times I got really angry at M2 - was when I gave her some feedback on her technique - and she was dismissive. I gave her the lite blowtorch on that and we got back on track - there is no pretending in bed in our house. Obviously that is mostly painful for me - and that’s ok. 




happiness27 said:


> There is such a thing as sexual incompatibility, though. Unless one can delve deeper into conversation with "they" - women who aren't very interested in sex with their spouse - it's not fair to assume that they are solely to blame and being evil and nefarious.
> 
> Bad sex is really ****y - and women get the shaft in the O department (statistically) a lot.
> 
> Let me ask you guys: How often would you feel like having sex if you only orgasmed 1 in 3 or less times you had sex? You can't even imagine that happening, perhaps. But (again, statistically), women have this happen. It's very discouraging to try and get amorous and you hardly get time to get turned on before PIV and, well, you're not even halfway there. You just give up after awhile.
> 
> If you are communicative and try to communicate your desires, and your spouse gets miffed or defensive at you for not liking what he's doing already, then it's even worse. Now you've p.o.'d your spouse and you end up taking care of his feelings instead.
> 
> Many women are VERY VERY different from men when it comes to sex. If a guy responds to visual stimuli and physically touching his penis, women appear to be more mentally stimulated. A guy trying to approach a woman with the same technique that works on him, is going to probably run into trouble with a longterm partner after awhile.
> 
> That vaginal area is an amazing landscape of sensitivity - but it is far from the only area, same goes for breasts. Women can mentally stimulate themselves and take very little time to orgasm. But get a rough hand on a clit and she could recoil.
> 
> Strangely, oddly...I see these posts from men who are making up stories in their heads about how she is depriving him with evil purpose when, if they were to actually care about being successful with at least some of the women, they would get out of theirselves and take a look at how their woman is sexually stimulated.
> 
> Are there women who actually hate sex? or are they women who just hate bad sex? Yes, there are incompatible couples - but I'm talking about compatible couples who are having trouble in the sex department.
> 
> Sometimes I think porn has ruined things for a lot of people. They watch porn and all these hot and ready women and think "Why can't my wife be like that?" Well, if your wife wanted to and was getting paid to do porn, she could probably fake all that stuff like they are faking it in the porn videos. It's FAKE - that's why it looks like it's working. In actuality, it's a bunch of camera and director people telling the people in front of the camera "Now, do this to her and now stick your finger in her mouth like a fish hook, now lick here and swallow the whole thing"...etc. It's fake, fake, fake.
> 
> It's changed people's expectations in the bedroom.
> 
> Remove the porn and the expectations and porn thoughts and look at the person in front of you.
> 
> You don't need *game* - you need to be connected in some ways. You need to pore your curiosity and admiration into your lover for the sake of loving them. Every part of them - and VOICE it...not just during lovemaking or for the sole purpose of seduction - but to build some good feelings...the same thing YOU want, you need to give, without expectation. If you scared them off at some point in the past, then you have to have a discussion about that, apologize for not realizing it and get a do-over.
> 
> And WOMEN - you need to talk to him. It's really hard to do this. But both of you are expressing your love for each other through sex - and getting what you want from this is not something that just automatically happens in a longterm relationship especially. It's so easy to feel hotness for a new lover - because it's like unwrapping a new present, it's automatically exciting as you play it out in your head. But, look at that guy in front of you and imagine your life without him. Neither person should take the other for granted - because anybody could be gone in a moment. We are so complacent and spoiled sometimes we don't even think about this possibility.
> 
> The reality of sex with a longterm partner takes a whole lot more effort. You have to bring the variety you seek in porn into how you approach each other instead - looking for little details of admiration for each other instead of overlooking those details because you think you've seen them all. You haven't. There's always something new to try and admire, something new to say to each other. That is the kind of variety that builds an amazing happiness between two people who have been together a long time.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

happiness27 said:


> Also, there are some women - and I am one - who prefer quality over quantity. I would rather have a full afternoon of sweat swapping than repeat sex every day. I have a lot of things in life I want to accomplish and these things take time and mental energy. Switching my brain over to sex repeatedly every single day is not something I want to do. I have to have free space in my head with no tasks on my plate or hanging over my head to be able to do that. Sometimes I just want the pleasure of resting. There are many pleasures in life and I'm very cerebral in how I enjoy those things. Sex every other day or every third day would be great for me - then we can O as many times as we want and I can focus. This every day sex deal - what is that, some men's magazine expectation? Jeez, doesn't quality matter? I mean, is it some frequency contest?
> 
> You really love jumping to conclusions. Has anybody here said anything that indicates a lack of concern for quality? Do you not think we've tried to deliver exactly what you're talking about?
> 
> I think that what you focus on becomes bigger on your mind.
> You focus on what needs fixed. If it's important, as sex is in marriage, it's inherently big.
> If rejection is what a guy focuses on, the rejection becomes bigger. If a guy takes a positive attitude, that's HOT to a woman.
> How long is this positive attitude supposed to hold out? For many all that leads to is decades of manufactured positivity, leading to NOTHING but waking up one day and realizing your life is over and you've had wasted your one chance at having a good all around life
> Subtle, flirty stuff where you act like, yeah, you're noticing her - the sheen on her hair, the profile of her face, the bounce of her breasts, the roundness of her ass..., women dig being scoped out from a distance and it's a turn on. And a guy who's caring for what the two of them have built together - a guy who's into nest-building, I guess you'd say.
> With every passing paragraph, you describe me more an more. That was my natural behavior for decades. Not because I was angling for anything, but rather because that's exactly how I felt about her. For a while (after about 15 YEARS of very infrequent, unenthusiastic sex) I finally got broke down. It was very hard to show that kind of appreciation. But after a very short period of not showing such appreciation, mostly as an exercise in self preservation (NOT laziness), I decide even then, after all I'd been through, that it as more important for her to know how magnificent she is, and how I still crave all those aspects of her, than it was for me to protect my emotional stability. After all, I'm strong. I can take it. I can take anything. She definitely appreciated this. Did it help put us on a path to something more than vanilla sex once a week (in rare cases) to (usually more like) once a month? Nope.
> 
> 
> I just think that coming to a forum to complain about one's sex life all the time is avoiding taking real life actions.
> This is positively insulting, and demeaning and utterly dismissive and completely lacking in any kind of empathy. You think guys come to this forum and cry pity-poor-me the first time their wife said "not tonight, I've got a headache?" Please. Take some time to read some of the personal stories of the men on this site. We're talking DECADES of of partner non-interest. We're talking about positively exhausting, grinding effort, day in-day out, year after year, decade after decade. We're talking about people who have made it their life's mission to "take real life actions." All to no avail.
> 
> 
> Did you guys ever go to a sex therapist? Why did you stay for so long if you were unhappy? Were there other things more important than sex that made you stay?
> 
> I had a sexless marriage for 9 years. I was vocal about it, too. Not mean but at the end, I was blunt - either he made an effort to have sex more than once a month or our marriage was over. It did not improve and despite me having 3 kids under age eight, I left.
> 
> I outlined options above - have you ever discussed any of those with your significant other? Have you two gone to therapy ever to address the lack of discussion about what would be a better solution sexually for you?
> 
> You wrote: "This is positively insulting, and demeaning and utterly dismissive and completely lacking in any kind of empathy."
> 
> Yes, I'm tough love and I know that. If you are unhappy, do something about it. Take an action.


After all that you still ask if I've talked to my wife about it? I believe I have sad as much at least three times in this thread alone. 

No, what you are saying isn't "tough love." It continually ignores the massive efforts put forth. Tough love says "get up off your ass and make something happen." But I have never been passive about this and I've never been one to get any saddle sores. In fact, one of the things that attracted my wife to me is my energy level along with my decisiveness and very non-passive nature. I have always been a person of action. It has served me well in my career, my hobbies, my relationships, and to be honest, every other aspect of my marriage. So I know what taking action is, what it looks like, the effort and energy required... and when one reasonably could expect to get some results from all that effort. 

Now maybe I should have left. I won't argue that. Better than that, the time to leave is before the "I dos" and certainly before kids. 

Here's the two edged sword of being strong, being optimistic, and being led to believe that if you do all those things you said bring about the magic, it'll all work out in the end. You take it to heart, you make it a core of your being, you devote your life to her, and you know, because everyone is telling you that if you do all this, she will respond, and if two people truly love each other, it'll all work out in the end... so every day you "take action." You stay the course. You make it your life's calling. But when you're so devoted, and so convinced that doing all that will yield results, you stick with it for years... decades... and then when you finally realize there was no fixing this no matter how hard you try, your life is over. 

And at this point, I will not blow her up over this. That ship has long since sailed. She is a good woman and has been a magnificent wife in every other respect. I could even say she has been a great wife sexually, just a bad match for me in that one area.


----------



## happiness27

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> After all that you still ask if I've talked to my wife about it? I believe I have sad as much at least three times in this thread alone.
> 
> No, what you are saying isn't "tough love." It continually ignores the massive efforts put forth. Tough love says "get up off your ass and make something happen." But I have never been passive about this and I've never been one to get any saddle sores. In fact, one of the things that attracted my wife to me is my energy level along with my decisiveness and very non-passive nature. I have always been a person of action. It has served me well in my career, my hobbies, my relationships, and to be honest, every other aspect of my marriage. So I know what taking action is, what it looks like, the effort and energy required... and when one reasonably could expect to get some results from all that effort.
> 
> Now maybe I should have left. I won't argue that. Better than that, the time to leave is before the "I dos" and certainly before kids.
> 
> Here's the two edged sword of being strong, being optimistic, and being led to believe that if you do all those things you said bring about the magic, it'll all work out in the end. You take it to heart, you make it a core of your being, you devote your life to her, and you know, because everyone is telling you that if you do all this, she will respond, and if two people truly love each other, it'll all work out in the end... so every day you "take action." You stay the course. You make it your life's calling. But when you're so devoted, and so convinced that doing all that will yield results, you stick with it for years... decades... and then when you finally realize there was no fixing this no matter how hard you try, your life is over.
> 
> And at this point, I will not blow her up over this. That ship has long since sailed. She is a good woman and has been a magnificent wife in every other respect. I could even say she has been a great wife sexually, just a bad match for me in that one area.


Did you go to sex therapy? Could you still at this point?


----------



## happiness27

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> It's great that you understand the importance of doing that, and presumable have been willing to to, and have done that in your relationship. Doesn't help those who's partners haven't. In fact it's even worse than you imagine for these partners. Not only are their wives not responding to them, they are basically telling their men "you're not worth the effort to make it better." Ouch.
> 
> We all want that amazing sexual creature. Far more than we want porn. But when she absolutely refuses to show....


Why aren't you guys leaving or choosing some other option like swinging or open marriage? Something must be keeping people in these sexually unsatisfactory marriages. Sex therapy and even just regular therapy can really change things for couples. Man, seriously, I do sympathize because I have been there and done that. It was awful. I didn't make it a whole decade before I got out. And, God bless him, he found someone else and I found someone else and it worked out better for both of us. We just didn't click in the sex department - even though there was nothing wrong with either one of us in terms of ability, looks or anything. We just didn't click sexually (and otherwise, also. Probably all connected somehow).


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

happiness27 said:


> Did you go to sex therapy? Could you still at this point?


I think we're past that. For a number of reasons. The last time I broached the subject of the mismatch, she cried and said "I'm not broken."

And it's fair to say that's probably an accurate statement. She's not broken. She's just someone with a very narrow desire profile. She's perfectly happy with vanilla sex once a month. 

In fact, that once a month thing is very telling. Her desire has always been perfectly timed with her cycle. She said one of her friends described it perfectly. Her friend said that for 28 days, her husband is a jerk, but the day after that, she can't keep her hands off him. Now my wife doesn't think I'm a jerk those other 28 days, but she's not looking to fool around during that time either. 

The straw that broke this camel's sexual back was when she described a period in which she said she kept a diary to prove she wasn't neglecting sex. Her tracking indicated that, more often than not, we had sex 1x/week. And she was quite proud of that monumental achievement. She said this was a great effort to be able to do so. Ouch. 

But now that she's menopausal, there's no more cycle. So I can't even expect enthusiasm 1x/mo.

And that's just quantity. As you have noted, quality is even more important. But she's happy with the same-ol' same-ol' every time. That's what works for her. That's how she's built. Counseling can't change that any more than counseling can reignite a cyclical desire that has expired. 

I'm afraid the die was cast when I bought into the mantra that you wait until you meet the one to have sex. This was a classic case of cart before the horse; one that I think has done a lot of harm. Rather, one should have sex to help determine if this is the one. 

All that said, I may be getting some IC to help me determine how to address my handling of my situation which, of course may lead to some MC.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

happiness27 said:


> Why aren't you guys leaving or choosing some other option like swinging or open marriage? Something must be keeping people in these sexually unsatisfactory marriages. Sex therapy and even just regular therapy can really change things for couples. Man, seriously, I do sympathize because I have been there and done that. It was awful. I didn't make it a whole decade before I got out. And, God bless him, he found someone else and I found someone else and it worked out better for both of us. We just didn't click in the sex department - even though there was nothing wrong with either one of us in terms of ability, looks or anything. We just didn't click sexually (and otherwise, also. Probably all connected somehow).


At this point, leaving is a pretty ugly option. She's been marvelous in every other way... and even her LD isn't something I can hold against her. I made a promise and I keep my promises. And the thing is, she's perfectly satisfied. She has no reason whatsoever to want to leave. And I'm not going to blow her up over something that's not inherently her fault. 

And swinging/open marriage most definitely is not an option. To me, physical intimacy is meaningless, and actually a net negative, if it's not with the one you share emotional intimacy with. I can see the rationale behind divorce, but I absolutely can not, under any circumstances, condone adultery.


----------



## happiness27

MEM2020 said:


> H27,
> I absolutely love your unfiltered - sincere - constructive input.
> 
> I’m going to sort of double down here - because I believe you have raised some key themes.
> 1. It is WAY WAY more common for the woman not to O
> 2. Enough men react badly to that outcome - for women to feel some pressure to be less than fully honest about this outcome
> 
> There can be no faster route to a sexually broken marriage then for the woman to have to protect her partners fragile ego by pretending it was great.
> 
> Which brings me to a very common pattern on TAM. Man says: wife always orgasms, wife avoids sex like the plague
> 
> I say: maybe she orgasms and maybe she doesn’t - but the overall experience is not good for her - otherwise she wouldn’t act like this. Ask her - why the overall experience isn’t good.
> 
> So - at risk of sounding like a jerk - I don’t think you can get an honest answer to that type question if your marriage is based on your wife unconditionally feeding your ego.
> 
> Fwiw - one of the very few times I got really angry at M2 - was when I gave her some feedback on her technique - and she was dismissive. I gave her the lite blowtorch on that and we got back on track - there is no pretending in bed in our house. Obviously that is mostly painful for me - and that’s ok.


Good for you guys not pretending the O. And, let me just say that when women do that, it's not always just to protect a man's ego - it's to protect HERS. I know the times I used to do that, I considered it a failure on my part to admit that I didn't orgasm. Yeah, good for you guys that you get real with each other. There really is no other way through it but it can be scary not knowing what it looks like on the other side of an honest discussion. But, nine times out of ten, it's positive when people really hang in there with each other.

I hope I never give anyone the impression that openness is easy. It's absolutely NOT. We're all so imperfect trying to evolve into something a little bit better. People have life experiences surrounding sex that can really nick them. When they bury those experiences, it can and often is baffling to the partner if it's not discussed. Because in the space of that silence, it's human nature for the confused partner to fill in the silence with a *story* (she doesn't really love me; she's trying to hurt me; she is repulsed by me...) whereas the truth may be something so completely different and unrelated.


----------



## MEM2020

Rocky,

I honestly believe that fighting compatibility issues is like fighting gravity. Exhausting and utterly impossible. And it’s why I believe that the single recipe that ensures misery is love sans compatibility.

And I have the benefit of - experiencing almost 30 years of a marriage where the compatibility is somewhat skewed. 

In terms of companionship we are almost the same. Maybe an 8 for me and a 9 for M2. In terms of sex more like a 9 for me and a 6 for her. But from day one we had this one huge advantage, no pretending. So M2 made our sex life really good for me - without ever pretending that overall it was as good for her. Sometimes it was - but when it wasn’t - it was obvious. 

I admit to doing many stupid things in the last 30 years. But in this one area - I always said the same thing over and over and over. Thank you for not pretending with me. And the best analog I can give is this. I’ve gone to church with her almost 1500 times now. Not Catholic. Not even Christian. I gladly go because it doesn’t seem right for my life partner to have to go by herself or only with the kids. 

My mindset regarding sex is perhaps atypical. And that is - of course I want it to be as good as possible for M2. Ideally as good for her as it is for me. That said, my REQUIREMENT is that it not be bad for her. If I think it is going to be bad, or it is turning that way - I just stop. 

This is why I say that sacrifice - wanting to put - sometimes insisting on putting the other person first - is true love.  






Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> After all that you still ask if I've talked to my wife about it? I believe I have sad as much at least three times in this thread alone.
> 
> No, what you are saying isn't "tough love." It continually ignores the massive efforts put forth. Tough love says "get up off your ass and make something happen." But I have never been passive about this and I've never been one to get any saddle sores. In fact, one of the things that attracted my wife to me is my energy level along with my decisiveness and very non-passive nature. I have always been a person of action. It has served me well in my career, my hobbies, my relationships, and to be honest, every other aspect of my marriage. So I know what taking action is, what it looks like, the effort and energy required... and when one reasonably could expect to get some results from all that effort.
> 
> Now maybe I should have left. I won't argue that. Better than that, the time to leave is before the "I dos" and certainly before kids.
> 
> Here's the two edged sword of being strong, being optimistic, and being led to believe that if you do all those things you said bring about the magic, it'll all work out in the end. You take it to heart, you make it a core of your being, you devote your life to her, and you know, because everyone is telling you that if you do all this, she will respond, and if two people truly love each other, it'll all work out in the end... so every day you "take action." You stay the course. You make it your life's calling. But when you're so devoted, and so convinced that doing all that will yield results, you stick with it for years... decades... and then when you finally realize there was no fixing this no matter how hard you try, your life is over.
> 
> And at this point, I will not blow her up over this. That ship has long since sailed. She is a good woman and has been a magnificent wife in every other respect. I could even say she has been a great wife sexually, just a bad match for me in that one area.


----------



## happiness27

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> At this point, leaving is a pretty ugly option. She's been marvelous in every other way... and even her LD isn't something I can hold against her. I made a promise and I keep my promises. And the thing is, she's perfectly satisfied. She has no reason whatsoever to want to leave. And I'm not going to blow her up over something that's not inherently her fault.
> 
> And swinging/open marriage most definitely is not an option. To me, physical intimacy is meaningless, and actually a net negative, if it's not with the one you share emotional intimacy with. I can see the rationale behind divorce, but I absolutely can not, under any circumstances, condone adultery.


I agree with you on the swinging - but I really don't want to judge others who are in that lifestyle. It works for some people apparently. We considered it but we laugh at ourselves about it now. It was something that really proved to us who we are as a couple. It knocked a whole lot of reality into my husband who, at first, thought, hey, yeah, he could have all the sex he wanted with other women in an open way. But the fantasy of that vs. the reality of that was an ice bath of epiphanies. It just put to rest any idea that a different person would somehow be more exciting. We turned inward towards each other instead. Maybe other couples just inherently know that - but we struggled with it and needed to prove it to ourselves. 

I still think that sex therapy or therapy is a worthwhile pursuit. My husband and I got very lucky several years ago and landed a highly qualified sage therapist who had over 20 years experience working with couples and a divinity degree on top of that. The therapist was a wealth of ideas and information that spanned a lot of different techniques to fit a wide variety of couple ideology. He wasn't a lazy therapist but rather a very interactive therapist with a rich store of information that we had never been turned on to. The work with him catapulted us to a new dimension of thinking both as individuals and as a couple.

If you are happy with your wife in so many other ways, then what would be the harm in taking a shot at working on the sex issue?


----------



## MEM2020

In the very beginning she made this leap of faith that she was going to be transparent with me. That’s beyond honest - let’s face it honesty works great when the other person is smart enough to ask the right questions. 

Transparency is when you volunteer the answers. 

So the first few times M2 doesn’t get there she says: I’m sorry - I can’t always get into the right mindset to get there. 

And I look at her puzzled and ask: So this is about the biggest thing you can give someone - yourself - it isn’t a symmetrical experience - and you are apologizing to me. Is this Opposite Day (from child’s book)? I just need you to tell me - I should be doing something diffferent, more of this less of that. 

That said - if it was always like that - would not have proposed. Everyone deserves a high level of sexual joy in their life. If you can’t give that to a partner - you ought not pair up. 




happiness27 said:


> Good for you guys not pretending the O. And, let me just say that when women do that, it's not always just to protect a man's ego - it's to protect HERS. I know the times I used to do that, I considered it a failure on my part to admit that I didn't orgasm. Yeah, good for you guys that you get real with each other. There really is no other way through it but it can be scary not knowing what it looks like on the other side of an honest discussion. But, nine times out of ten, it's positive when people really hang in there with each other.
> 
> I hope I never give anyone the impression that openness is easy. It's absolutely NOT. We're all so imperfect trying to evolve into something a little bit better. People have life experiences surrounding sex that can really nick them. When they bury those experiences, it can and often is baffling to the partner if it's not discussed. Because in the space of that silence, it's human nature for the confused partner to fill in the silence with a *story* (she doesn't really love me; she's trying to hurt me; she is repulsed by me...) whereas the truth may be something so completely different and unrelated.


----------



## happiness27

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I think we're past that. For a number of reasons. The last time I broached the subject of the mismatch, she cried and said "I'm not broken."
> 
> And it's fair to say that's probably an accurate statement. She's not broken. She's just someone with a very narrow desire profile. She's perfectly happy with vanilla sex once a month.
> 
> In fact, that once a month thing is very telling. Her desire has always been perfectly timed with her cycle. She said one of her friends described it perfectly. Her friend said that for 28 days, her husband is a jerk, but the day after that, she can't keep her hands off him. Now my wife doesn't think I'm a jerk those other 28 days, but she's not looking to fool around during that time either.
> 
> The straw that broke this camel's sexual back was when she described a period in which she said she kept a diary to prove she wasn't neglecting sex. Her tracking indicated that, more often than not, we had sex 1x/week. And she was quite proud of that monumental achievement. She said this was a great effort to be able to do so. Ouch.
> 
> But now that she's menopausal, there's no more cycle. So I can't even expect enthusiasm 1x/mo.
> 
> And that's just quantity. As you have noted, quality is even more important. But she's happy with the same-ol' same-ol' every time. That's what works for her. That's how she's built. Counseling can't change that any more than counseling can reignite a cyclical desire that has expired.
> 
> I'm afraid the die was cast when I bought into the mantra that you wait until you meet the one to have sex. This was a classic case of cart before the horse; one that I think has done a lot of harm. Rather, one should have sex to help determine if this is the one.
> 
> All that said, I may be getting some IC to help me determine how to address my handling of my situation which, of course may lead to some MC.


Menopause doesn't mean the end of sex at all. I got my A to the doctor and got on bioidentical hormone replacement therapy with T and estrogen cream for my V. I work my A off on this to make sure that our sex life is viable. Some T can really be helpful to boost sex drive. I hate it that women think they have to put up with low sex drive when there are actually some solid solutions out there now. 

And, darn it, that same-ol, same ol' - ugh, frustrating. Seriously, don't give up. There are solutions. I don't see anything wrong with sex therapy - it might not work but then, again, it might. So, that possibility makes it worth pursuing. 

I admit, every person is different but I do believe that people can evolve and change. We just need to push for those changes sometimes. If done with a happy, loving heart - who knows what could come of it?


----------



## happiness27

MEM2020 said:


> In the very beginning she made this leap of faith that she was going to be transparent with me. That’s beyond honest - let’s face it honesty works great when the other person is smart enough to ask the right questions.
> 
> Transparency is when you volunteer the answers.
> 
> So the first few times M2 doesn’t get there she says: I’m sorry - I can’t always get into the right mindset to get there.
> 
> And I look at her puzzled and ask: So this is about the biggest thing you can give someone - yourself - it isn’t a symmetrical experience - and you are apologizing to me. Is this Opposite Day (from child’s book)? I just need you to tell me - I should be doing something diffferent, more of this less of that.
> 
> That said - if it was always like that - would not have proposed. Everyone deserves a high level of sexual joy in their life. If you can’t give that to a partner - you ought not pair up.


Ah, cool - "mindset" - see that's where women are so different from men. I totally get her statement because that's how I get into it also. It's a mindset. And, man, it is frustrating to try and explain that to your partner. It's baffling enough to the woman, let alone try and explain it. 

Add to that, sex changes for women (does it for men?) over the years. What worked 20-30 years ago may not work now. Maybe used to like this but now likes that. 

I can get irritated over if the sheets are straight or not or if the room is too hot or if I forgot to floss my teeth - LOL!!!!! 

I am fascinated by what makes a guy tick - but it's probably frustrating for guys to try and figure out how a woman ticks.


----------



## MEM2020

Mostly M2 came hardwired with this deep seated grasp of men. She intuitively grasped the notion that depriving your man - was like driving round at WAY above the speed limit. Might get away with it for a week or a month. But statistically, you are likely to have a very bad outcome. Maybe infidelity, maybe just a deeply unhappy marriage. 

Marriage is long - and we have had a few (not many) conversations where I said - babe if this is too much pressure - you can take as long a break as you want - I’ll find a girlfriend. That wasn’t said in a saidistic or manipulative way - it was an offer not a bluff. 

Monogamy is every bit as much a responsibility as it is a commitment.




happiness27 said:


> I agree with you on the swinging - but I really don't want to judge others who are in that lifestyle. It works for some people apparently. We considered it but we laugh at ourselves about it now. It was something that really proved to us who we are as a couple. It knocked a whole lot of reality into my husband who, at first, thought, hey, yeah, he could have all the sex he wanted with other women in an open way. But the fantasy of that vs. the reality of that was an ice bath of epiphanies. It just put to rest any idea that a different person would somehow be more exciting. We turned inward towards each other instead. Maybe other couples just inherently know that - but we struggled with it and needed to prove it to ourselves.
> 
> I still think that sex therapy or therapy is a worthwhile pursuit. My husband and I got very lucky several years ago and landed a highly qualified sage therapist who had over 20 years experience working with couples and a divinity degree on top of that. The therapist was a wealth of ideas and information that spanned a lot of different techniques to fit a wide variety of couple ideology. He wasn't a lazy therapist but rather a very interactive therapist with a rich store of information that we had never been turned on to. The work with him catapulted us to a new dimension of thinking both as individuals and as a couple.
> 
> If you are happy with your wife in so many other ways, then what would be the harm in taking a shot at working on the sex issue?


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

happiness27 said:


> I agree with you on the swinging - but I really don't want to judge others who are in that lifestyle. It works for some people apparently. We considered it but we laugh at ourselves about it now. It was something that really proved to us who we are as a couple. It knocked a whole lot of reality into my husband who, at first, thought, hey, yeah, he could have all the sex he wanted with other women in an open way. But the fantasy of that vs. the reality of that was an ice bath of epiphanies. It just put to rest any idea that a different person would somehow be more exciting. We turned inward towards each other instead. Maybe other couples just inherently know that - but we struggled with it and needed to prove it to ourselves.
> 
> I still think that sex therapy or therapy is a worthwhile pursuit. My husband and I got very lucky several years ago and landed a highly qualified sage therapist who had over 20 years experience working with couples and a divinity degree on top of that. The therapist was a wealth of ideas and information that spanned a lot of different techniques to fit a wide variety of couple ideology. He wasn't a lazy therapist but rather a very interactive therapist with a rich store of information that we had never been turned on to. The work with him catapulted us to a new dimension of thinking both as individuals and as a couple.
> 
> If you are happy with your wife in so many other ways, then what would be the harm in taking a shot at working on the sex issue?


Like I said, I've been "taking a shot at it" for 30 years now. I'm pretty skeptical about the utility of counselors. I've not seen them produce much outside of sex, so I have no confidence they'll do any better in that area. And that was before the arrival of the very real physical limitations menopause has imposed on my wife. She's been working hard with MDs and DOs to address this. But that's just the physical side. On the mental/emotional side it's "I'm not broken." For counseling, even with a competent and attentive counselor, to be effective, both parties have to understand that something needs fixed in the first place. 

That said, it looks like I'm off for some IC myself. I'm looking forward to see if that develops into a recommendation for couples counseling (sexual or otherwise).


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

happiness27 said:


> Menopause doesn't mean the end of sex at all. I got my A to the doctor and got on bioidentical hormone replacement therapy with T and estrogen cream for my V. I work my A off on this to make sure that our sex life is viable. Some T can really be helpful to boost sex drive. I hate it that women think they have to put up with low sex drive when there are actually some solid solutions out there now.
> 
> And, darn it, that same-ol, same ol' - ugh, frustrating. Seriously, don't give up. There are solutions. I don't see anything wrong with sex therapy - it might not work but then, again, it might. So, that possibility makes it worth pursuing.
> 
> I admit, every person is different but I do believe that people can evolve and change. We just need to push for those changes sometimes. If done with a happy, loving heart - who knows what could come of it?


As the result of other issues (thyroid, physical discomfort down there), she's been working with a top DO on various hormone therapies with limited results. But that's not been to restore sex drive... only to try to restore energy and deal with discomfort. It's never been a goal to restore sex drive, as there never was much of that in the first place. One of the mixes her doc put her on did include some T, and she did get rather sex obsessed, even saying she could hardly function through the day for being able to only think about sex. She said "Now I know what it feels like to be you" and "Every wife should try this, just so they could understand their husbands better." But then it turned out that wasn't the best course for her and no more T... and no more desire. And, strangely, no apparent recollection of what that felt like.


----------



## MEM2020

What makes this easier is - I don’t crowd her. If I initiate and she says - can we connect tomorrow - I just say sure. She does not need to invent head or stomach problems. Usually when she doesn’t want to - it’s because she doesn’t want to. Not because she’s filling sick/bad. 

This was way more difficult when I was in my thirties. For a while I traveled every week and was only home on weekends. For two years. A man in his thirties - anyway - after two years she wanted me home. I was pretty blunt about what I expected if I was going to be home full time. And she was good with that. 




happiness27 said:


> Ah, cool - "mindset" - see that's where women are so different from men. I totally get her statement because that's how I get into it also. It's a mindset. And, man, it is frustrating to try and explain that to your partner. It's baffling enough to the woman, let alone try and explain it.
> 
> Add to that, sex changes for women (does it for men?) over the years. What worked 20-30 years ago may not work now. Maybe used to like this but now likes that.
> 
> I can get irritated over if the sheets are straight or not or if the room is too hot or if I forgot to floss my teeth - LOL!!!!!
> 
> I am fascinated by what makes a guy tick - but it's probably frustrating for guys to try and figure out how a woman ticks.


----------



## happiness27

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> As the result of other issues (thyroid, physical discomfort down there), she's been working with a top DO on various hormone therapies with limited results. But that's not been to restore sex drive... only to try to restore energy and deal with discomfort. It's never been a goal to restore sex drive, as there never was much of that in the first place. One of the mixes her doc put her on did include some T, and she did get rather sex obsessed, even saying she could hardly function through the day for being able to only think about sex. She said "Now I know what it feels like to be you" and "Every wife should try this, just so they could understand their husbands better." But then it turned out that wasn't the best course for her and no more T... and no more desire. And, strangely, no apparent recollection of what that felt like.


I know I saw that you posted about that and I shared my experience with too much T also. You have to tweak that to get it just right. I didn't give up on it. I'm on too low of a dose right now and got it bumped recently to 2MG. We'll see how it goes. I really like how it makes me feel. 

I LIKE having a strong sex drive. I absolutely LOVE O's. But when the body doesn't cooperate with you on that, it's not something a woman has to put up with. This is in the none-of-my-business category but, woman-to-woman, it'd be worth trying again to get the mix right. I'm sure you guys have your reasons for it not being the right course for her but on the off-chance that some encouragement would be effective in giving it another try with the right mix...ya know...

Anyway, I'm glad another woman went through the same thing in a way because I felt like a freak being the only person I know whose ever had that experience.


----------



## MEM2020

The post below - IMO - is not about sex. It is about the concept of marriage. 

The 5 love languages guy - was generally on the right track - but I found his specifics to be mostly disappointing. It seemed like an attempt to let people declare victory - despite being deeply incompatible and unhappy.

1. Companionship (quality time) 
2. Physical touch (non sexual and sexual touch need to be separated)
3. Sexual touch and sex
4. Sacrifice - that’s what an act of service IS, it is me putting you first. And that’s what responsive desire sex is. And being generous with money and letting him/her pick the restaurant or movie. 

So in the world I live - companionship really is first - but sacrifice is second. Not because it should feel bad - but because it absolutely should NOT feel bad to put the other persons desires first. 

Why is M2 happy to have a decent amount of one sided sexual encounters?

1. She gets full credit and good will for it because we both acknowledge exactly what’s happening
2. She also knows I’m gonna make sure it isn’t bad for her - not physically and not emotionally 
3. Outside the bedroom there isn’t hardly a scenario I don’t easily and reflexively put HER first 

Abbreviated to: if it’s important to YOU, by definition it’s important to ME. 





Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> As the result of other issues (thyroid, physical discomfort down there), she's been working with a top DO on various hormone therapies with limited results. But that's not been to restore sex drive... only to try to restore energy and deal with discomfort. It's never been a goal to restore sex drive, as there never was much of that in the first place. One of the mixes her doc put her on did include some T, and she did get rather sex obsessed, even saying she could hardly function through the day for being able to only think about sex. She said "Now I know what it feels like to be you" and "Every wife should try this, just so they could understand their husbands better." But then it turned out that wasn't the best course for her and no more T... and no more desire. And, strangely, no apparent recollection of what that felt like.


----------



## uhtred

We are both mid 50s. 
She did go to a doctor and was given some lubricant (which we already use), but doctor didn't describe stretching exercises. We did discuss stretching exercises, and she agreed that they would likely fix things, but didn't do them herself. She said she would rather have me use small toys on her (which she enjoys when she does want sex) but that or course happens very rarely. I certainly don't push for PIV, we tried a few times, it was uncomfortable and she basically gave up. 

I have to be very careful, she won't say anything at the time, but for the next several days she will complain about how I made her sore. I bring it up every couple of months, she always agrees on how to fix it, but never takes any action. If asked, she comes up with a local excuse of having been tired / busy / ill / whatever excuse comes to mind. 

Deep down I think she is convinced that once a month would be a very active sex life. She is only willing to actually engage in solutions that don't require her to do anything sexual more than once every 2 weeks or so. 


At the moment we have fallen into a pattern that for us is pretty good. 





happiness27 said:


> Have you two been to a sex therapist?
> 
> Also, how old is your wife?
> 
> Regarding the painful PIV, in my current (and longest) marriage (28 years), I had that happen. But there are solutions for it. My husband had worked overseas quite awhile and we saw each other infrequently. When he came home for good, I hadn't had PIV in so long, I guess, that PIV was painful. So weird. Well, I wasn't going to put up with that, so I went to a couple of doctors and ended up doing pelvic physical therapy. You can google it so I don't have to describe it here - but it was several weeks of it plus the doc had me on a couple of meds to relax my tight muscles in my vagina. It really helped but it was a bit of work and thankfully my husband was pretty darned understanding.
> 
> I have a fantastic husband who has, in the past, been the worst communicator ever. I knew that lack of communication leads to a great deal of unhappiness for both people and I value our relationship and our happiness far more than the so-called comfort of conflict avoidance.
> 
> I can see where your wife would be offended by you showing her an article on asexuality as she's likely not asexual. You guys just need to get into therapy and get your voices heard with a good therapist to guide you. However, let me say that I do admire you for bringing up the issues with her. A husband who's willing to reach out like that - that means he really cares and is willing to work at things.
> 
> That PIV problem is solvable. Not many people know about pelvic floor pain and that there is therapy for it.


----------



## uhtred

We have friends in an open marriage - who are now getting divorced. When my wife heard about it she made it very clear that she did not consider an open marriage acceptable. (I didn't ask because I was sure about her answer).

Why do we stay? Because sex is not the only important thing in a relationship. The rest of our relationship is very good. I have no doubt I could have a happy sex life with someone else, but other things might not be as good, and my wife (whom I love very much) would be completely devastated if I left. 



happiness27 said:


> Why aren't you guys leaving or choosing some other option like swinging or open marriage? Something must be keeping people in these sexually unsatisfactory marriages. Sex therapy and even just regular therapy can really change things for couples. Man, seriously, I do sympathize because I have been there and done that. It was awful. I didn't make it a whole decade before I got out. And, God bless him, he found someone else and I found someone else and it worked out better for both of us. We just didn't click in the sex department - even though there was nothing wrong with either one of us in terms of ability, looks or anything. We just didn't click sexually (and otherwise, also. Probably all connected somehow).


----------



## uhtred

I have spent decades trying to get her to talk. Its very difficult, she is just not comfortable discussing sex and especially uncomfortable with any discussion that leans in the direction of her lack of interest in sex. 

Just for a sense of scale on frequency. I'm in a much better situation that many posters here: We engage in some sort of sexual activity maybe every other week. There are large gaps - often several months. No actual intercourse in over a year and until very recently she was only willing to give me HJs. There has been a huge improvement lately when she discovered that she didn't mind giving oral and tried a few other things. (use used to say she hated doing it, so we never did). Many other posters here have much less frequent sex. Some have no sexual activity at all for years. The people complaining here are not complaining that they don't get sex every day. 

I agree with quality over quantity, but my wife always wants sex to be over quickly. Its not that she isn't enjoying it, its that when she gets aroused she wants an O right away, and then she is done. I offer to do things more slowly but she has specifically said that she doesn't like that, she wants me to finish her quickly once we start.


I do flirt. I run my fingers through her hair when we are sitting on the sofa watching TV. I give her little kisses when we pass in the hallway. We go out on dinner dates, and take vacations to romantic places. I tell her how attractive she is. I like looking at her and she knows it. We share chores - both work and both share chores around the house - that part of our life seems well balanced.

She does say "not now, but next time..." but next time rarely happens. 

Getting her to therapy would be difficult, she doesn't think that there is a problem. I can of course leave and find someone else and have lots of wild monkey sex - I have no doubts on that score, but it would hurt her terribly and I love her. 

When is she not tired? Most of the time when we aren't considering sex. We travel all over the world, do strenuous hiking, kayaking etc. Its clearly not "tired". I've had her turn me down for sex when we were staying at a fabulous beach resort - then decide to go swimming. (If I bring this up, she will just say something like "sorry, I just didn't really feel like it", but is clearly uncomfortable. Its clear that for her "tired' really means "not feeling and desire". 

I'm not thrilled with vibrators either, but it is what she wants. Every once in a while she will let me give her an O without one, but it takes a long time, and she prefers it to be quick. I know she uses them herself sometimes. 

I've made my choice and I'm not leaving her after 35 years. I just vent here because it feels good to vent. In real life no one knows about these issues. Everyone things we have the most wonderful relationship you can imagine. I'm liked and to a significant extent envied for my fantastic life. This is the one place, where by being anonymous, I can let some imaginary people on the internet know the reality.













happiness27 said:


> As I have said about five times recently, sometimes partners are incompatible sex partners. That doesn't mean they aren't compatible with someone else. But, if partners are talking, there can be some epiphanies come out of discussion that would improve their sex life. I don't understand this thing: "But she won't talk to me" - wtf? My husband wouldn't talk to me either and I stayed ON his ass - for YEARS. I get why he was so inward - it was his upbringing. But, like I told him: "You're an adult now and they are all gone (deceased) so it's time to do things differently." and we went into therapy, both individually and together and I would not let him slack. I WILL NOT let him slack on talking. The reward is a lot of happiness instead of miserable silence and playing immature head games. I hate that. The more we improve our relationship, the happier we are both individually and together.
> 
> Also, there are some women - and I am one - who prefer quality over quantity. I would rather have a full afternoon of sweat swapping than repeat sex every day. I have a lot of things in life I want to accomplish and these things take time and mental energy. Switching my brain over to sex repeatedly every single day is not something I want to do. I have to have free space in my head with no tasks on my plate or hanging over my head to be able to do that. Sometimes I just want the pleasure of resting. There are many pleasures in life and I'm very cerebral in how I enjoy those things. Sex every other day or every third day would be great for me - then we can O as many times as we want and I can focus. This every day sex deal - what is that, some men's magazine expectation? Jeez, doesn't quality matter? I mean, is it some frequency contest?
> 
> I think that what you focus on becomes bigger on your mind. If rejection is what a guy focuses on, the rejection becomes bigger. If a guy takes a positive attitude, that's HOT to a woman. Subtle, flirty stuff where you act like, yeah, you're noticing her - the sheen on her hair, the profile of her face, the bounce of her breasts, the roundness of her ass..., women dig being scoped out from a distance and it's a turn on. And a guy who's caring for what the two of them have built together - a guy who's into nest-building, I guess you'd say.
> 
> If a woman gives a crap enough to clarify "not now but I'll be much better at X time" and keeps her promise, then you have a relationship going instead of a confounding situation where a guy has nothing to go on. This takes two people engaging. A lot of times, it takes therapy to get these issues out in the open.
> 
> Honestly, if a couple has serious sexual incompatibility issues that they have come to a conclusion on together with a therapist and they are totally honest with each other - then there are still solutions the couple can come up with. They can part ways and still be respectful of each other, they can join swingers for the higher sexed partner or open their marriage - but, for heaven's sake, it seems ridiculous to moan and groan for the rest of your life, bemoaning your plight in life. Solutions - get solutions. Maybe it's a feeling of being stuck, but no one is ever "stuck" forever except by their own permission - it's just whether or not they feel like they can live with whatever set of consequences they end up choosing.
> 
> I just think that coming to a forum to complain about one's sex life all the time is avoiding taking real life actions. It's what a person does when they are in a stuck pace for awhile but, after awhile, it's just a life of complaining and an addiction to sympathy-seeking. The person who is going to best take care of you is YOU.
> 
> You said she uses "tired" as an excuse. Well, when is she not tired? Is there a better time of day that would work? I know I am better in the afternoon (and fortunately my husband works nights) than I am at midnight. I'm not going to have sex well at midnight. So, our sex life is more centered around the middle of the day. I like to be cuddled in the morning but he likes to pop out bed and get coffee. So, we split that - sometimes he gets up and makes coffee, other days, he comes over and hugs and cuddles me awake. I'm just saying that there are ways to make things work - and if a person feels like they have tried everything, including sex therapy and they are still getting nowhere, then make a different choice.
> 
> As far as vibrator use, hey, peace/respect to whatever works for somebody. However, I will share my experience with vibrators and it was that I had to get away from them. My husband was overseas working for a long time and so I tried the vibrator route out of not having my partner. Those things are really powerful and, for me, they are quite different than person-to-person sex. You get acclimated to that and it's hard to O without them at first if you give them up. I had to relearn how to have sex with my husband when I pitched them. I won't go back to them either - it was like sex on crack. The O is good but it interfered with my relationship connection I wanted with my husband. I like having my husband writhing on top of me while I'm screaming. A vibrator can't do that.
> 
> That's just my experience but hey, vibrators and sex toys are extremely popular for people. When I came up the sexual pike, those things weren't easily available like they are these days and I was alive many decades before the internet - so porn wasn't in my scope of experiences most of my early sexual life. I didn't get trained on those things so I tend to rely more on my interpersonal human skills.


----------



## azimuth

If it’s gone on for decades then I think there has to be a thrill in the hunt or chase, the journey of figuring her out. If your wife offered or initiated sex all the time, it might be fun for awhile but you might not be fulfilled long term. You might get bored. It seems like the decades-long chase and figuring out your wife is the fulfilling part, and knowing that no one else will figure her out either. Whereas a sexual woman who offers sex to her husband easily, might be looked down upon as “anyone could have her.” And loss of respect for her. Actually a woman like that probably wouldn’t even be appealing for the chase-oriented men during dating, and it wouldn’t turn into a marriage.

It just seems to me like the wives with husbands who try so hard understand this, and keep themselves mysterious and chaste within the marriage to always keep him chasing. That’s the dynamic that’s been working for decades so why change - according to them.

I’m HD and I really can’t grasp the LD mindset. I would think withholding like that would be marriage suicide. Yet, it is not, and divorce isn’t even an option.


----------



## wilson

azimuth said:


> I’m HD and I really can’t grasp the LD mindset. I would think withholding like that would be marriage suicide. Yet, it is not, and divorce isn’t even an option.


It's not just sex. There have been threads on here like "My H is unemployed and plays video games all day. He watches porn. He doesn't do any chores. He chats with women he says are friends. He doesn't want to be intimate with me. How can I get him to find a job, help out around the house, ditch those women, and be intimate with me? I love him so much and will do anything to save my marriage."


----------



## azimuth

wilson said:


> It's not just sex. There have been threads on here like "My H is unemployed and plays video games all day. He watches porn. He doesn't do any chores. He chats with women he says are friends. He doesn't want to be intimate with me. How can I get him to find a job, help out around the house, ditch those women, and be intimate with me? I love him so much and will do anything to save my marriage."


I don’t understand why you connected those thoughts to my post. I was referring to the men in the past few pages here who love and cherish their wives who are excellent wives and mothers except for withholding sex, yet the husbands stay and devote their lives to them. You described a man who has no redeeming qualities as a husband. That’s not a good analogy.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

uhtred said:


> I have spent decades trying to get her to talk. Its very difficult, she is just not comfortable discussing sex and especially uncomfortable with any discussion that leans in the direction of her lack of interest in sex.
> 
> Just for a sense of scale on frequency. I'm in a much better situation that many posters here: We engage in some sort of sexual activity maybe every other week. There are large gaps - often several months. No actual intercourse in over a year and until very recently she was only willing to give me HJs. There has been a huge improvement lately when she discovered that she didn't mind giving oral and tried a few other things. (use used to say she hated doing it, so we never did). Many other posters here have much less frequent sex. Some have no sexual activity at all for years. The people complaining here are not complaining that they don't get sex every day.
> 
> I agree with quality over quantity, but my wife always wants sex to be over quickly. Its not that she isn't enjoying it, its that when she gets aroused she wants an O right away, and then she is done. I offer to do things more slowly but she has specifically said that she doesn't like that, she wants me to finish her quickly once we start.
> 
> 
> I do flirt. I run my fingers through her hair when we are sitting on the sofa watching TV. I give her little kisses when we pass in the hallway. We go out on dinner dates, and take vacations to romantic places. I tell her how attractive she is. I like looking at her and she knows it. We share chores - both work and both share chores around the house - that part of our life seems well balanced.
> 
> She does say "not now, but next time..." but next time rarely happens.
> 
> Getting her to therapy would be difficult, she doesn't think that there is a problem. I can of course leave and find someone else and have lots of wild monkey sex - I have no doubts on that score, but it would hurt her terribly and I love her.
> 
> When is she not tired? Most of the time when we aren't considering sex. We travel all over the world, do strenuous hiking, kayaking etc. Its clearly not "tired". I've had her turn me down for sex when we were staying at a fabulous beach resort - then decide to go swimming. (If I bring this up, she will just say something like "sorry, I just didn't really feel like it", but is clearly uncomfortable. Its clear that for her "tired' really means "not feeling and desire".
> 
> I'm not thrilled with vibrators either, but it is what she wants. Every once in a while she will let me give her an O without one, but it takes a long time, and she prefers it to be quick. I know she uses them herself sometimes.
> 
> I've made my choice and I'm not leaving her after 35 years. I just vent here because it feels good to vent. In real life no one knows about these issues. Everyone things we have the most wonderful relationship you can imagine. I'm liked and to a significant extent envied for my fantastic life. This is the one place, where by being anonymous, I can let some imaginary people on the internet know the reality.


What he said. 
(With minor differences, of course, as in my wife does enjoy the PIV when it is allowed however infrequently but the overall gist and key points are pretty darn close to my story as well)


----------



## growingme

A sexless marriage, isn't marriage suicide all of the time. My Wife and I have sex once every 6-9 months or so and we are in our late 20's/early 30's. Some times things happen in a marriage that makes the other person shut down sexually. Seeing the lack of sex as a marriage killer just means you really don't love that person imo. To me marriage is deeper than sex, it's an emotional bond, sharing your life with someone you consider your best friend, sex is simply a bonus in life that some like to partake in. Ever since we backed off to 1-2 times per year I have really catapulted my career and have a clearer sense of thinking. There is quite a bit of backstory to my opinion, but I just wanted to share that it's not as hard as people make it out to be when you are in a sexless marriage, and TECHNICALLY if you have sex at all it's not sexless.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

@uhtred , why are you giving her what she wants if she isn't giving you what you want? The vibe ain't doing nothin for you brother. I'd throw her vibes away and let her be asexual by herself. What is she gonna do? Deny you sex?? LOL. I'd be pissed if my wife was vibing it but denying me. If you don't want to dump her and live in a sexless marriage, that's your perogative, but why are you trying so hard? Don't be her chump, she is being selfish!

Also, I might be just too tired to spend all that money and take her on some fancy vacation around the world without much coaxing. But then again I'm a vindictive ahole.


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## personofinterest

growingme said:


> A sexless marriage, isn't marriage suicide all of the time. My Wife and I have sex once every 6-9 months or so and we are in our late 20's/early 30's. Some times things happen in a marriage that makes the other person shut down sexually. Seeing the lack of sex as a marriage killer just means you really don't love that person imo. To me marriage is deeper than sex, it's an emotional bond, sharing your life with someone you consider your best friend, sex is simply a bonus in life that some like to partake in. Ever since we backed off to 1-2 times per year I have really catapulted my career and have a clearer sense of thinking. There is quite a bit of backstory to my opinion, but I just wanted to share that it's not as hard as people make it out to be when you are in a sexless marriage, and TECHNICALLY if you have sex at all it's not sexless.


Clearly you do not have a real need for sex, and it is great you found someone who is compatible with you. however, think about the thing you DO truly need from your spouse, and imagine them deeming that to be unimportant.

You don't really get to decide whether other people love their spouses, nor are you the final authority on whether sex is or is not important.


----------



## MEM2020

Just as marital sex is useful gauge of the health of the marriage - monogamy is as well. 

Monogamy - for people with easy extra-marital options - is a huge show of commitment. It’s a sacrifice really.

And an increasingly large one as you get further out of synch with the other persons level of desire. 

But here’s the thing. In the day to day, a ‘good guy’ his protective circuitry is higher voltage than his recreational (sex) circuit. At a certain threshold in years and miles paired - he won’t leave because doing so would irreparably injure his self image. That is a choice I understand and agree with. 





uhtred said:


> We have friends in an open marriage - who are now getting divorced. When my wife heard about it she made it very clear that she did not consider an open marriage acceptable. (I didn't ask because I was sure about her answer).
> 
> Why do we stay? Because sex is not the only important thing in a relationship. The rest of our relationship is very good. I have no doubt I could have a happy sex life with someone else, but other things might not be as good, and my wife (whom I love very much) would be completely devastated if I left.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> happiness27 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with you on the swinging - but I really don't want to judge others who are in that lifestyle. It works for some people apparently. We considered it but we laugh at ourselves about it now. It was something that really proved to us who we are as a couple. It knocked a whole lot of reality into my husband who, at first, thought, hey, yeah, he could have all the sex he wanted with other women in an open way. But the fantasy of that vs. the reality of that was an ice bath of epiphanies. It just put to rest any idea that a different person would somehow be more exciting. We turned inward towards each other instead. Maybe other couples just inherently know that - but we struggled with it and needed to prove it to ourselves.
> 
> I still think that sex therapy or therapy is a worthwhile pursuit. My husband and I got very lucky several years ago and landed a highly qualified sage therapist who had over 20 years experience working with couples and a divinity degree on top of that. The therapist was a wealth of ideas and information that spanned a lot of different techniques to fit a wide variety of couple ideology. He wasn't a lazy therapist but rather a very interactive therapist with a rich store of information that we had never been turned on to. The work with him catapulted us to a new dimension of thinking both as individuals and as a couple.
> 
> If you are happy with your wife in so many other ways, then what would be the harm in taking a shot at working on the sex issue?
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said, I've been "taking a shot at it" for 30 years now. I'm pretty skeptical about the utility of counselors. I've not seen them produce much outside of sex, so I have no confidence they'll do any better in that area. And that was before the arrival of the very real physical limitations menopause has imposed on my wife. She's been working hard with MDs and DOs to address this. But that's just the physical side. On the mental/emotional side it's "I'm not broken." For counseling, even with a competent and attentive counselor, to be effective, both parties have to understand that something needs fixed in the first place.
> 
> That said, it looks like I'm off for some IC myself. I'm looking forward to see if that develops into a recommendation for couples counseling (sexual or otherwise).
Click to expand...

I’m glad you are going to get some IC. And I hope it does lead to some MC and maybe then some ST.

I would like your wife to hear from someone other than you that you are not broken either. That her position is fine and you respect it and love her, but that it is totally normal for you to feel unfulfilled and depressed about being in a situation that is not ideal for you and having accepted that it will always be this way. 

And further, although it would be incredibly painful for you, I think it would be helpful for you to imagine a life where your wife is now your ex wife, that she and you still love each other but have agreed that the mismatch is not fair to either of you, and you are now happy with a woman who loves you and wants sex with you all the time.

The purpose of doing this exercise is so that you can at least open up possible futures in your mind without them all seeming like it would be a horrible outcome.

I understand you do not want to leave your wife and I’m not suggesting that as an outcome. I’m merely suggesting a mental exercise. It is meant to help you expand your mind, even if only in theory, not practice.

And lastly, I do actually think that if your wife knew how painful being unfulfilled is (being told by others who are experts) and also if she knew you were actually contemplating life without her because of that deep sense of something missing, she might (with continued therapy) come to a compromise with you. And not like a woman desperate who doesn’t want the sex but feels coerced. Instead like a woman who has seen the light for the first time because she hasn’t been challenged on her thinking before. (She hasn’t had someone explain that her needs don’t remove the needs of the other and that the consequence of his unmet needs may be divorce).

Young at Heart who posts here had something along those lines with his wife. It took a number of years for them to settle in to a new pattern, but the gentle but honest message to her that YAH would eventually want a divorce over lack of sex was the key to her understanding. And he wasn’t wrong for feeling this way, and he was normal. And that in fact a wife who didn’t want sex with her husband but thought he would never leave her was the one who was not thinking like a normal, logical wife. These things were pointed out to her in a safe and healthy way until she could understand them and then she was able to change her position.

YAH did not get to this point with her until he had truly decided he would leave after a given amount of time if there was no improvement. I know you aren’t at that point. But you may be someday.


----------



## growingme

personofinterest said:


> Clearly you do not have a real need for sex, and it is great you found someone who is compatible with you. however, think about the thing you DO truly need from your spouse, and imagine them deeming that to be unimportant.
> 
> You don't really get to decide whether other people love their spouses, nor are you the final authority on whether sex is or is not important.


I'm simply sharing my opinion and experience, you clearly read people as I'm not telling someone they don't love their spouse or sex isn't important to them. It's simply not important to me, I'd appreciate you making sure you have your facts straight before going off the handle like that.

Thanks for your understanding.


----------



## personofinterest

growingme said:


> I'm simply sharing my opinion and experience, you clearly read people as I'm not telling someone they don't love their spouse or sex isn't important to them. It's simply not important to me, I'd appreciate you making sure you have your facts straight before going off the handle like that.
> 
> Thanks for your understanding.


I'm looking at my handle, and it is still firmly attached after my calm post disagreeing with you - didn't fly anywhere. Don't worry. I didn't take any of your power. I just typed a post. And you DID in fact say that someone who would leave over sex must not love their partner.


----------



## uhtred

The answer is yes, she would just deny me sex. There was a time when we took in a foster child for 6 months. I put the sex toys somewhere where they wouldn't accidentally be found. My wife never asked. We never had sex. Afterwards when I put them back in their usual place she did just ask out of curiosity where I had put them. 

She doesn't need sex. So I can have not sexual interaction at all with her, or I can have an occasional unbalanced sexual interaction (though the last has gotten much better in the last few weeks, so idiot that I am, I am hopeful). 

*I* also enjoy the fancy vacations, and we both work so we both pay. The rest of our lives are well balanced.





UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> @uhtred , why are you giving her what she wants if she isn't giving you what you want? The vibe ain't doing nothin for you brother. I'd throw her vibes away and let her be asexual by herself. What is she gonna do? Deny you sex?? LOL. I'd be pissed if my wife was vibing it but denying me. If you don't want to dump her and live in a sexless marriage, that's your perogative, but why are you trying so hard? Don't be her chump, she is being selfish!
> 
> Also, I might be just too tired to spend all that money and take her on some fancy vacation around the world without much coaxing. But then again I'm a vindictive ahole.


----------



## growingme

personofinterest said:


> I'm looking at my handle, and it is still firmly attached after my calm post disagreeing with you - didn't fly anywhere. Don't worry. I didn't take any of your power. I just typed a post. And you DID in fact say that someone who would leave over sex must not love their partner.


Again, that is just my opinion. I guess we can just agree to disagree on this one.


----------



## personofinterest

growingme said:


> Again, that is just my opinion. I guess we can just agree to disagree on this one.


Actually, you do have a point. I loved my first husband with everything in me when we married. I loved him through the birth of our kids, even when he didn't seem interested anymore. I loved him through all his job losses, gaming spending, and refusal to meet my needs. I tried everything I could think of then got advice through years of being starved for sex and affection.

But you are right. By the end of those two decades of hurt and loneliness....my love for him HAD died. And I divorced.

So in the end I DIDN'T love him anymore. He killed it slowly every day for way over a decade.


----------



## growingme

personofinterest said:


> Actually, you do have a point. I loved my first husband with everything in me when we married. I loved him through the birth of our kids, even when he didn't seem interested anymore. I loved him through all his job losses, gaming spending, and refusal to meet my needs. I tried everything I could think of then got advice through years of being starved for sex and affection.
> 
> But you are right. By the end of those two decades of hurt and loneliness....my love for him HAD died. And I divorced.
> 
> So in the end I DIDN'T love him anymore. He killed it slowly every day for way over a decade.


I'm very sorry that you had to endure that for so long, and that your family was impacted in such a negative manner. I really do hope the best for you and your children, I realize I can come off very cold hearted, but I have been cheated on by my current Wife, and 3 of my other 4 long-term relationships I was also cheated on. I guess I just gave up on women after this last bout a few years back.

So I apologize if I come off as aggressive, but I guess it's like a dog that doesn't trust humans anymore.

I too know the pain of not being desired, and that is ultimately what made me shut down my libido for good.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

uhtred said:


> The answer is yes, she would just deny me sex. There was a time when we took in a foster child for 6 months. I put the sex toys somewhere where they wouldn't accidentally be found. My wife never asked. We never had sex. Afterwards when I put them back in their usual place she did just ask out of curiosity where I had put them.
> 
> She doesn't need sex. So I can have not sexual interaction at all with her, or I can have an occasional unbalanced sexual interaction (though the last has gotten much better in the last few weeks, so idiot that I am, I am hopeful).
> 
> *I* also enjoy the fancy vacations, and we both work so we both pay. The rest of our lives are well balanced.


Well, nobody needs sex. We wont dry up wither away without it, we will just spontaneously emit fluids at night. But the whole point of a marriage is to take care of each other, which if one partner values it and the other doesn't, then the one that doesn't should be unselfish so the other partner is fulfilled. Otherwise, you don't have a marriage, you have a roommate or friend. Maybe you can outsource that part of the marriage. She will probably laugh at you and still withhold since she knows you aren't goin anywhere. 

I don't have an answer for you, but I'd find ways to withhold things from her that she values. It can go both ways...if it can't, you better just embrace the incel life.


----------



## BarbedFenceRider

So, what if the spouse is all up in getting hubby to working out and trimming down. Then when the T hits.....It's like the sahara desert in bed. The wife is like, eh, not right now! lol

Great, that's like asking a ferrari to live in a retirement community and drive 15mph! lol 

My wife has got problems with her uterus and heavy bleeding that goes on and on and on... The doctors are going for surgery at the end of the year. Bummer is, libido is supposedly swept right of the table along with said uterus. 

So now, with a year and a half of gym time and a very active life...Testosterone is finally back, and I've got the libido of a gazelle .I am looking forward to this? Really?! I was already relegated to 1 time a week due to kids and job stuff....And I cut back my beer and wings for this!? Lets keep our fingers crossed.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Faithful Wife said:


> I’m glad you are going to get some IC. And I hope it does lead to some MC and maybe then some ST.
> 
> I would like your wife to hear from someone other than you that you are not broken either. That her position is fine and you respect it and love her, but that it is totally normal for you to feel unfulfilled and depressed about being in a situation that is not ideal for you and having accepted that it will always be this way.
> 
> And further, although it would be incredibly painful for you, I think it would be helpful for you to imagine a life where your wife is now your ex wife, that she and you still love each other but have agreed that the mismatch is not fair to either of you, and you are now happy with a woman who loves you and wants sex with you all the time.
> 
> The purpose of doing this exercise is so that you can at least open up possible futures in your mind without them all seeming like it would be a horrible outcome.
> 
> I understand you do not want to leave your wife and I’m not suggesting that as an outcome. I’m merely suggesting a mental exercise. It is meant to help you expand your mind, even if only in theory, not practice.
> 
> And lastly, I do actually think that if your wife knew how painful being unfulfilled is (being told by others who are experts) and also if she knew you were actually contemplating life without her because of that deep sense of something missing, she might (with continued therapy) come to a compromise with you. And not like a woman desperate who doesn’t want the sex but feels coerced. Instead like a woman who has seen the light for the first time because she hasn’t been challenged on her thinking before. (She hasn’t had someone explain that her needs don’t remove the needs of the other and that the consequence of his unmet needs may be divorce).
> 
> Young at Heart who posts here had something along those lines with his wife. It took a number of years for them to settle in to a new pattern, but the gentle but honest message to her that YAH would eventually want a divorce over lack of sex was the key to her understanding. And he wasn’t wrong for feeling this way, and he was normal. And that in fact a wife who didn’t want sex with her husband but thought he would never leave her was the one who was not thinking like a normal, logical wife. These things were pointed out to her in a safe and healthy way until she could understand them and then she was able to change her position.
> 
> YAH did not get to this point with her until he had truly decided he would leave after a given amount of time if there was no improvement. I know you aren’t at that point. But you may be someday.


 @faithfulwife,
I think that's all very wise counsel. I thank you for it. 

This may come as a shock (I'm even rather shocked at having done it, let alone admitting it even with strangers), but I have engaged in just the mental exercise you mentioned. It really took some doing, not because I feared the pain of it, but rather because doing so felt like an affront to the marriage and the vows I take so seriously. So it took a very difficult and profound shuffling of my thoughts and beliefs to even be able to try it in the first place. I can say that what I have learned on TAM from others who have lived a similar story (with varying outcomes) helped be the catalyst. I had never even been able to comprehend the concept that sexual mismatch might be a valid reason for dissolving a union, so steeped was I in the traditional, repressive, old-school think that only a horrible, shallow person would ever move on because of sex.


----------



## clb0208

I honestly don't know if a sexless marriage can be fixed. I applaud anyone who can. I was in one for quite a few years, which I blame on both myself and my ex. He was frustrated that I didn't want it, I felt like all of the romance and flirtation was gone. I also looked at him as another person I had to take care rather than a partner or the man of the house. This changed my entire view of who he was and made it difficult to want to have sex. It wasn't until after we split and I met someone who I had incredible chemistry with that I realized how terrible my sex life had been before. Now, that is a non-negotiable part of any relationship that I have. It can't just be good, but it has to be AMAZING. I understand now that it takes a lot of work to keep that chemistry alive and once it is gone it is extremely difficult to get back.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> I’m glad you are going to get some IC. And I hope it does lead to some MC and maybe then some ST.
> 
> I would like your wife to hear from someone other than you that you are not broken either. That her position is fine and you respect it and love her, but that it is totally normal for you to feel unfulfilled and depressed about being in a situation that is not ideal for you and having accepted that it will always be this way.
> 
> And further, although it would be incredibly painful for you, I think it would be helpful for you to imagine a life where your wife is now your ex wife, that she and you still love each other but have agreed that the mismatch is not fair to either of you, and you are now happy with a woman who loves you and wants sex with you all the time.
> 
> The purpose of doing this exercise is so that you can at least open up possible futures in your mind without them all seeming like it would be a horrible outcome.
> 
> I understand you do not want to leave your wife and I’m not suggesting that as an outcome. I’m merely suggesting a mental exercise. It is meant to help you expand your mind, even if only in theory, not practice.
> 
> And lastly, I do actually think that if your wife knew how painful being unfulfilled is (being told by others who are experts) and also if she knew you were actually contemplating life without her because of that deep sense of something missing, she might (with continued therapy) come to a compromise with you. And not like a woman desperate who doesn’t want the sex but feels coerced. Instead like a woman who has seen the light for the first time because she hasn’t been challenged on her thinking before. (She hasn’t had someone explain that her needs don’t remove the needs of the other and that the consequence of his unmet needs may be divorce).
> 
> Young at Heart who posts here had something along those lines with his wife. It took a number of years for them to settle in to a new pattern, but the gentle but honest message to her that YAH would eventually want a divorce over lack of sex was the key to her understanding. And he wasn’t wrong for feeling this way, and he was normal. And that in fact a wife who didn’t want sex with her husband but thought he would never leave her was the one who was not thinking like a normal, logical wife. These things were pointed out to her in a safe and healthy way until she could understand them and then she was able to change her position.
> 
> YAH did not get to this point with her until he had truly decided he would leave after a given amount of time if there was no improvement. I know you aren’t at that point. But you may be someday.
> 
> 
> 
> @faithfulwife,
> I think that's all very wise counsel. I thank you for it.
> 
> This may come as a shock (I'm even rather shocked at having done it, let alone admitting it even with strangers), but I have engaged in just the mental exercise you mentioned. It really took some doing, not because I feared the pain of it, but rather because doing so felt like an affront to the marriage and the vows I take so seriously. So it took a very difficult and profound shuffling of my thoughts and beliefs to even be able to try it in the first place. I can say that what I have learned on TAM from others who have lived a similar story (with varying outcomes) helped be the catalyst. I had never even been able to comprehend the concept that sexual mismatch might be a valid reason for dissolving a union, so steeped was I in the traditional, repressive, old-school think that only a horrible, shallow person would ever move on because of sex.
Click to expand...

Yeti, good for you! Just being able to accept that leaving over a mismatched sex drive (for anyone) is the place to start. That at least puts you into a different mindset. It doesn’t make someone a horrible or shallow person. It doesn’t mean people should leave without trying to work it out either. It just means that sex, among other things, is something that breaks up marriages. No one asks for this when they set out, and no one knows what sexlessness in a relationship is going to do to their soul until it happens to them. 

I hope you find a good IC who can help you find some ways to cope, some peace of mind, or some ideas to bring her around. Or all of that!


----------



## Faithful Wife

clb0208 said:


> I honestly don't know if a sexless marriage can be fixed. I applaud anyone who can. I was in one for quite a few years, which I blame on both myself and my ex. He was frustrated that I didn't want it, I felt like all of the romance and flirtation was gone. I also looked at him as another person I had to take care rather than a partner or the man of the house. This changed my entire view of who he was and made it difficult to want to have sex. It wasn't until after we split and I met someone who I had incredible chemistry with that I realized how terrible my sex life had been before. Now, that is a non-negotiable part of any relationship that I have. It can't just be good, but it has to be AMAZING. I understand now that it takes a lot of work to keep that chemistry alive and once it is gone it is extremely difficult to get back.


Can I ask, was the sex with your ex good at the beginning of the relationship? Just curious.


----------



## clb0208

It was good. Not great, but good. But we were both young when we got together, so didn't have much to compare it to at the time.


----------



## Faithful Wife

clb0208 said:


> It was good. Not great, but good. But we were both young when we got together, so didn't have much to compare it to at the time.


Thank you. 

So going forward, I would just point out a few things....

In almost all new relationships, even those with people who end up not being very sexual, there is more and better sex in the beginning. So it’s really hard to know in the beginning of any relationship how things will be after 3 or so years. I only mention this because lots of relationships start out with great sex and still end up sexless or extremely unfulfilling to one or both partners. It takes even more due diligence to find someone you share great sex with than just the act of finding them. It takes a really long time before you know how things will settle out with someone. So in a short term relationship, it’s not really going to matter. In a long term one, it does.

For this reason I think people should not fully commit their entire lives to each other during the first year. Or if they do, they should have a long engagement period.

I read your other posts and am so happy for you that you are now aware of what a great sex life feels like and how awesome it is! I just hope you do not commit yourself to anyone too soon.

When one thing ends and then you find someone you really click with, it is very hard not to fall into a rebound relationship.

I hope you have fun exploring and don’t get snatched off the market too soon!


----------



## MEM2020

Beautiful post.





Faithful Wife said:


> I’m glad you are going to get some IC. And I hope it does lead to some MC and maybe then some ST.
> 
> I would like your wife to hear from someone other than you that you are not broken either. That her position is fine and you respect it and love her, but that it is totally normal for you to feel unfulfilled and depressed about being in a situation that is not ideal for you and having accepted that it will always be this way.
> 
> And further, although it would be incredibly painful for you, I think it would be helpful for you to imagine a life where your wife is now your ex wife, that she and you still love each other but have agreed that the mismatch is not fair to either of you, and you are now happy with a woman who loves you and wants sex with you all the time.
> 
> The purpose of doing this exercise is so that you can at least open up possible futures in your mind without them all seeming like it would be a horrible outcome.
> 
> I understand you do not want to leave your wife and I’m not suggesting that as an outcome. I’m merely suggesting a mental exercise. It is meant to help you expand your mind, even if only in theory, not practice.
> 
> And lastly, I do actually think that if your wife knew how painful being unfulfilled is (being told by others who are experts) and also if she knew you were actually contemplating life without her because of that deep sense of something missing, she might (with continued therapy) come to a compromise with you. And not like a woman desperate who doesn’t want the sex but feels coerced. Instead like a woman who has seen the light for the first time because she hasn’t been challenged on her thinking before. (She hasn’t had someone explain that her needs don’t remove the needs of the other and that the consequence of his unmet needs may be divorce).
> 
> Young at Heart who posts here had something along those lines with his wife. It took a number of years for them to settle in to a new pattern, but the gentle but honest message to her that YAH would eventually want a divorce over lack of sex was the key to her understanding. And he wasn’t wrong for feeling this way, and he was normal. And that in fact a wife who didn’t want sex with her husband but thought he would never leave her was the one who was not thinking like a normal, logical wife. These things were pointed out to her in a safe and healthy way until she could understand them and then she was able to change her position.
> 
> YAH did not get to this point with her until he had truly decided he would leave after a given amount of time if there was no improvement. I know you aren’t at that point. But you may be someday.


----------



## Handy

* azimuth
If it’s gone on for decades then I think there has to be a thrill in the hunt or chase, the journey of figuring her out.

It could be for some men but I an not a "chase" type. I totally understand Uhtred  I have to be very careful, she won't say anything at the time, but for the next several days she will complain about how I made her sore.  and his  I think she is convinced that once a month would be a very active sex life. She is only willing to actually engage in solutions that don't require her to do anything sexual more than once every 2 weeks or so. and his idea she would be completely devastated if I left. Having a conscious has some down sides for some people. Yes I understand Uhtered's position because maybe I am worse than him about the guilt part.

 azimuth
That’s the dynamic that’s been working for decades so why change - according to them.

Well for me and my W "IT ISN'T WORKING" because there is a BIG disconnect. We do not travel and rarely do things together because she likes to stay home. I am physically at home but mentally gone. I have pursued a few things to be physically gone but the guilt is still there.*


----------



## happiness27

Handy said:


> * azimuth
> If it’s gone on for decades then I think there has to be a thrill in the hunt or chase, the journey of figuring her out.
> 
> It could be for some men but I an not a "chase" type. I totally understand Uhtred  I have to be very careful, she won't say anything at the time, but for the next several days she will complain about how I made her sore.  and his  I think she is convinced that once a month would be a very active sex life. She is only willing to actually engage in solutions that don't require her to do anything sexual more than once every 2 weeks or so. and his idea she would be completely devastated if I left. Having a conscious has some down sides for some people. Yes I understand Uhtered's position because maybe I am worse than him about the guilt part.
> 
> azimuth
> That’s the dynamic that’s been working for decades so why change - according to them.
> 
> Well for me and my W "IT ISN'T WORKING" because there is a BIG disconnect. We do not travel and rarely do things together because she likes to stay home. I am physically at home but mentally gone. I have pursued a few things to be physically gone but the guilt is still there.*


*

I had no idea until this forum how sad some marriages are. I thought people would pursue options rather than remain so unhappy. Reading your post truly makes me feel badly for you. MC is available and working to find a good MC can lead to changes - if not for the couple, then for the individual. Look for hopeful solutions.*


----------



## MEM2020

Rocky,
It is difficult to have a true sense of how other folks do things. But for us - absent being sick - the other person invites you to do something - you just say yes. And that includes sex. 

I would never leave someone over sex - itself. But their mindset towards me - if I found that lacking - that’s different. 

You have to accept that this means sometimes your partner is having sex FOR you, and sometimes WITH you. And you cannot ask them to pretend. 






Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> @faithfulwife,
> I think that's all very wise counsel. I thank you for it.
> 
> This may come as a shock (I'm even rather shocked at having done it, let alone admitting it even with strangers), but I have engaged in just the mental exercise you mentioned. It really took some doing, not because I feared the pain of it, but rather because doing so felt like an affront to the marriage and the vows I take so seriously. So it took a very difficult and profound shuffling of my thoughts and beliefs to even be able to try it in the first place. I can say that what I have learned on TAM from others who have lived a similar story (with varying outcomes) helped be the catalyst. I had never even been able to comprehend the concept that sexual mismatch might be a valid reason for dissolving a union, so steeped was I in the traditional, repressive, old-school think that only a horrible, shallow person would ever move on because of sex.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

MEM2020 said:


> Rocky,
> It is difficult to have a true sense of how other folks do things. But for us - absent being sick - the other person invites you to do something - you just say yes. And that includes sex.
> 
> *I would never leave someone over sex - itself. But their mindset towards me - if I found that lacking - that’s different. *
> 
> You have to accept that this means sometimes your partner is having sex FOR you, and sometimes WITH you. And you cannot ask them to pretend.


That's really what I meant to say here. When I referred to the whole old school think, and accusations of shallowness, I meant that covers any leaving over sex--including if the lack of sex was due to an attitude behind it rather than some legitimate physical constraint. No, I would never leave if she was sick. I'm talking about a healthy person perpetuating a lack of sex.


----------



## happiness27

BarbedFenceRider said:


> So, what if the spouse is all up in getting hubby to working out and trimming down. Then when the T hits.....It's like the sahara desert in bed. The wife is like, eh, not right now! lol
> 
> Great, that's like asking a ferrari to live in a retirement community and drive 15mph! lol
> 
> My wife has got problems with her uterus and heavy bleeding that goes on and on and on... The doctors are going for surgery at the end of the year. Bummer is, libido is supposedly swept right of the table along with said uterus.
> 
> So now, with a year and a half of gym time and a very active life...Testosterone is finally back, and I've got the libido of a gazelle .I am looking forward to this? Really?! I was already relegated to 1 time a week due to kids and job stuff....And I cut back my beer and wings for this!? Lets keep our fingers crossed.


If a spouse is sick with health problems, this is a very trying time in a marriage. I'm pretty sure that if I had your wife's problem, I'd be really hurt if the thing on my husband's mind the most was his own lack of getting sex.


----------



## happiness27

Taxman said:


> In my experience, withholding of sex is usually the express train to divorce city. I have seen a few people after the fact. The wives, in many respects are pretty surprised that their spouses were unwilling to accept the rejection of physical intimacy. I have pointed out numerous times that physical intimacy is absolutely necessary for couples to bond. I had one woman say that HE OWED HER for all the years she had sex with him. I asked what the going rate was per sex act? She replied that she was not a common streetwalker, to which I replied, you just hung a price tag on sex, tell me who is the prostitute? That marriage did come to a screeching halt. She offered to have sex with hiim, and he declined. He said that the repeated rejection over the last year or so, completely caused him to fall out of love. She asked if he hated her, and he said no, I neither love nor hate, I just don't give a shlt, and I want to be loved and to return it.
> 
> Two years later, he has found another mate. She is dating, and begrudgingly (according to her ex) now "putting out". According to her ex, she discovered too late that withholding of intimacy is guaranteed to keep a mate out of your life.



YES. EITHER way the withholding is coming from. I left also - but only after 9 nine years of trying - conversation, trying MC, which he only reluctantly tried. I was really young and wasn't going to spend my life in a rocking chair relationship.


----------



## happiness27

uhtred said:


> We are both mid 50s.
> She did go to a doctor and was given some lubricant (which we already use), but doctor didn't describe stretching exercises. We did discuss stretching exercises, and she agreed that they would likely fix things, but didn't do them herself. She said she would rather have me use small toys on her (which she enjoys when she does want sex) but that or course happens very rarely. I certainly don't push for PIV, we tried a few times, it was uncomfortable and she basically gave up.
> 
> I have to be very careful, she won't say anything at the time, but for the next several days she will complain about how I made her sore. I bring it up every couple of months, she always agrees on how to fix it, but never takes any action. If asked, she comes up with a local excuse of having been tired / busy / ill / whatever excuse comes to mind.
> 
> Deep down I think she is convinced that once a month would be a very active sex life. She is only willing to actually engage in solutions that don't require her to do anything sexual more than once every 2 weeks or so.
> 
> 
> At the moment we have fallen into a pattern that for us is pretty good.


Okay, you guys are just in the beginning of looking for solutions. I understand your wife's issues as I have experienced them and they are common in this age group. 

She does need to step up to the plate. I think this takes some serious conversations about the frequency being unacceptable to you. We do need to stand up to our spouse's reluctance. 

Her physical issues can be addressed with more solutions. She needs to be motivated to seek these. You can help her become motivated by insisting on MC or sex therapy - because you are half the relationship and you are unhappy with your present sex life.

I outlined for you already the lengths that I went to to solve my physical issues. Pelvic floor therapy and hormone replacement therapy - estrogen cream for the V are all possible solutions. One thing I didn't understand was that the estrogen cream has to be used regularly in order to work properly. It's very, very important that women in this age group not resign themselves to their fate when it is making their partner frustrated sexually. 

MC and/or sex therapy is very important for couples who are stuck. It takes outside people and motivation for the non-sexual partner to get off their duff and do something. Sometimes it takes ultimatums that the unhappy partner is willing to follow through with. "I love you but sex is important to me and if there are solutions for us, then these need to be pursued." Putting a foot down.

She might not realize what her options are - but she needs to do something besides resigning herself to old age syndrome.

I'm so aggravated with doctors and how they handle female sexual dysfunction! There are so many more options for older women these days. Just giving her a lubricant was not taking her overall problem seriously enough. He needed to address her libido and a lot of overall health considerations that will optimize her attitudes towards a healthy sex life. 

Does she exercise and/or go to the gym?

Personally, I take hormone replacement, estrogen cream for the V, exercise at the gym for 1 hour/40 min every other day, watch my food intake and type of food, keep my personal appearance up to date with a hairdresser, have a skin care regimen and dress nicely even though I'm not a fancy dresser. If there is something wrong with me health wise, I have a female doctor who is board certified in Restorative Medicine who monitors everything from the food and supplements I take to advising me on sexuality for the older female. That vaginal dryness really does cause PIV to hurt but the estrogen cream relieves this dryness issue when it's used on a consistent basis. 

At some point in our lives, as I have seen with all four of our elder parents, people do break down a few years before their death - but even for my parents when my father was terminally ill - as my mother related to me many years later - sex was still a part of their life. This is true, true love for a partner to have the motivation to be physically intimate. 

It's possible your wife is stuck and you are afraid of upsetting her or upsetting the apple cart, as the saying goes. Going to MC/sex therapy can be the shoe-horn needed to get her out of her lazy comfy space. Sex *doesn't have to hurt* - she needs to take control of her doctor by getting insistent or get a different doctor who is going to take her seriously. 

Anybody can be afraid of change - male or female - but this is the nature of life. People who don't change get left behind by those who are willing to take the risk at greater happiness.


----------



## Handy

happiness27 we did some MC that was geared towards "communication" It didn't work because our ideas clashed. In one session the MC asked why we were still together after finishing what the MC saw as our "job" of raising kids was essentially done. We both went to MC hoping the MC would fix the other spouse. 

To my detriment, I was playing "nice" and soft pedaling what I was unhappy about. I am also a low conflict type person, partly because that is the way I have always been and I grew up in a high conflict family mostly because of my step-dad's actions. My sister and I moved into my brother's house as soon as we could. My sister right after 8th grade and me for a little while starting in 6th grade and more so in 9th grade of school. My brother took in a lot of foster kids so he was a rescuer and also low conflict.

Wife and I started out good but kids, not enough income (SAHM) and me working too much to cover the living expenses, then some medical issues, not working, lead to several incompatibilities between us.

I totally understand Yeti and the other men not ready to divorce because that is the way they are and most of the other parts of their respective marriages are good-enough. Me? If I can get my personal life more clutter free and find a place to live that I can afford, I might just say done to my W of 50 years. I just do not see the validity of some divorces. I have done a lot of things I didn't want to do just because society and my inner voice said I should push through the dislike and do the work to at least finish a job.


Maybe other guys and gals in low sex-no sex relationships feel they need to not be a quitter or something like that. It still feels selfish to me to actually leave my relationship after working so hard to obtain some of my important dreams and wants. Some people wanted more than I have but considering how little I had before getting married and being the low man on the totem-pole for so long, actually doing the steps to get what I want, seems like some sort of pie-in-the-sky. Maybe I hear too many stories from much older women that they do not want to be encumbered by a man and like to do what ever anytime they wish.

BTW, i am not even thinking about a nurse or purse, which some women complain about. I practically run my household as my W watches TV 14 hours a day and does little else.


----------



## MEM2020

How this works for us - is not complicated.

One of us says: do you want to do X?

Now the person hearing that request - default reaction is often - not really. But we just say yes. And we make whatever it is fun for each other. 

Now sex is special because it isn’t that difficult to make sex - bad for the other person. 
- Pathogen transfer should not preceded arousal - why pacing is so important
- Sort of the same with moaning and all that other stuff - M2 can’t tell that I am turned on until she’s turned on 
- I make sure not to do anything that’s painful 
- There’s no pretending - so when M2 says: this is all about you - I accept that. I do lots of ‘all about her’ stuff - always been glad to. 






Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> That's really what I meant to say here. When I referred to the whole old school think, and accusations of shallowness, I meant that covers any leaving over sex--including if the lack of sex was due to an attitude behind it rather than some legitimate physical constraint. No, I would never leave if she was sick. I'm talking about a healthy person perpetuating a lack of sex.


----------



## MEM2020

The example - do you want to do X, that was totally generic. 
- go for a walk
- a bike ride
- to Home Depot 
- the grocery store 
- dinner with friends 
- a political rally

Saying no is not done. The only option, other than yes is: can we do that tomorrow? 




MEM2020 said:


> How this works for us - is not complicated.
> 
> One of us says: do you want to do X?
> 
> Now the person hearing that request - default reaction is often - not really. But we just say yes. And we make whatever it is fun for each other.
> 
> Now sex is special because it isn’t that difficult to make sex - bad for the other person.
> - Pathogen transfer should not preceded arousal - why pacing is so important
> - Sort of the same with moaning and all that other stuff - M2 can’t tell that I am turned on until she’s turned on
> - I make sure not to do anything that’s painful
> - There’s no pretending - so when M2 says: this is all about you - I accept that. I do lots of ‘all about her’ stuff - always been glad to.


----------



## happiness27

Handy said:


> happiness27 we did some MC that was geared towards "communication" It didn't work because our ideas clashed. In one session the MC asked why we were still together after finishing what the MC saw as our "job" of raising kids was essentially done. We both went to MC hoping the MC would fix the other spouse.
> 
> To my detriment, I was playing "nice" and soft pedaling what I was unhappy about. I am also a low conflict type person, partly because that is the way I have always been and I grew up in a high conflict family mostly because of my step-dad's actions. My sister and I moved into my brother's house as soon as we could. My sister right after 8th grade and me for a little while starting in 6th grade and more so in 9th grade of school. My brother took in a lot of foster kids so he was a rescuer and also low conflict.
> 
> Wife and I started out good but kids, not enough income (SAHM) and me working too much to cover the living expenses, then some medical issues, not working, lead to several incompatibilities between us.
> 
> I totally understand Yeti and the other men not ready to divorce because that is the way they are and most of the other parts of their respective marriages are good-enough. Me? If I can get my personal life more clutter free and find a place to live that I can afford, I might just say done to my W of 50 years. I just do not see the validity of some divorces. I have done a lot of things I didn't want to do just because society and my inner voice said I should push through the dislike and do the work to at least finish a job.
> 
> 
> Maybe other guys and gals in low sex-no sex relationships feel they need to not be a quitter or something like that. It still feels selfish to me to actually leave my relationship after working so hard to obtain some of my important dreams and wants. Some people wanted more than I have but considering how little I had before getting married and being the low man on the totem-pole for so long, actually doing the steps to get what I want, seems like some sort of pie-in-the-sky. Maybe I hear too many stories from much older women that they do not want to be encumbered by a man and like to do what ever anytime they wish.
> 
> BTW, i am not even thinking about a nurse or purse, which some women complain about. I practically run my household as my W watches TV 14 hours a day and does little else.


Do you do things your wife could be doing for herself? Like her laundry? Cooking her meals?


----------



## Blaine

QUESTION Has anyone gone from LD to HD just based on the quality of sex?


----------



## Faithful Wife

Blaine said:


> QUESTION Has anyone gone from LD to HD just based on the quality of sex?


Not me but I’ve heard stories about this type of improvement. I think GettingIt would qualify for that one maybe. Also have read lots of others, including men who went from L to H.

If sex in the way you don’t like it is causing you to not want sex (or if like in some cases, even what happens outside of sex can be the turn off), and then that changes, for a lot of people they will then get into it.

I have one friend who I know for sure would be HD for her husband if he would just do the things she has asked for. Since he refuses to do them, and he doesn’t meet in the middle he just does things his way, she no longer wants sex with him. She has explained that his approach is a turn off to her and has explained what would turn her on. He says “just can’t do it” which would be ok, except he still continues to do the exact things that turn her right off. 

So if he literally just stopped doing what she hates and they found something together that worked for both of them, even if it wasn’t what she had asked for (she was open to new things), she would be all over him all the time.

She is sexless but HD because of this.


----------



## john117

Sex is like Bondo. It covers or hides or deprioritizes other issues. When Bondo runs thin, these issues begin to pop up.

Like Bondo, it is a useful tool. But like Bondo, it can't fix everything. And when you run low...


----------



## happiness27

uhtred said:


> I have spent decades trying to get her to talk. Its very difficult, she is just not comfortable discussing sex and especially uncomfortable with any discussion that leans in the direction of her lack of interest in sex.
> 
> Just for a sense of scale on frequency. I'm in a much better situation that many posters here: We engage in some sort of sexual activity maybe every other week. There are large gaps - often several months. No actual intercourse in over a year and until very recently she was only willing to give me HJs. There has been a huge improvement lately when she discovered that she didn't mind giving oral and tried a few other things. (use used to say she hated doing it, so we never did). Many other posters here have much less frequent sex. Some have no sexual activity at all for years. The people complaining here are not complaining that they don't get sex every day.
> 
> I agree with quality over quantity, but my wife always wants sex to be over quickly. Its not that she isn't enjoying it, its that when she gets aroused she wants an O right away, and then she is done. I offer to do things more slowly but she has specifically said that she doesn't like that, she wants me to finish her quickly once we start.
> 
> 
> I do flirt. I run my fingers through her hair when we are sitting on the sofa watching TV. I give her little kisses when we pass in the hallway. We go out on dinner dates, and take vacations to romantic places. I tell her how attractive she is. I like looking at her and she knows it. We share chores - both work and both share chores around the house - that part of our life seems well balanced.
> 
> She does say "not now, but next time..." but next time rarely happens.
> 
> Getting her to therapy would be difficult, she doesn't think that there is a problem. I can of course leave and find someone else and have lots of wild monkey sex - I have no doubts on that score, but it would hurt her terribly and I love her.
> 
> When is she not tired? Most of the time when we aren't considering sex. We travel all over the world, do strenuous hiking, kayaking etc. Its clearly not "tired". I've had her turn me down for sex when we were staying at a fabulous beach resort - then decide to go swimming. (If I bring this up, she will just say something like "sorry, I just didn't really feel like it", but is clearly uncomfortable. Its clear that for her "tired' really means "not feeling and desire".
> 
> I'm not thrilled with vibrators either, but it is what she wants. Every once in a while she will let me give her an O without one, but it takes a long time, and she prefers it to be quick. I know she uses them herself sometimes.
> 
> I've made my choice and I'm not leaving her after 35 years. I just vent here because it feels good to vent. In real life no one knows about these issues. Everyone things we have the most wonderful relationship you can imagine. I'm liked and to a significant extent envied for my fantastic life. This is the one place, where by being anonymous, I can let some imaginary people on the internet know the reality.


Yes, I used a vibrators for the years my husband was overseas and I've posted about the difficulties of eliminating them. I threw them away because the sensation of using a vibrator is more intense/different stimulation than a sex partner without one. I wanted to focus on my husband and my technique with my husband - so it was my conscious choice once he was home again to quit them. And it was one hell of a struggle to get used to sex differently. I can see where a woman who didn't realize how it was interfering with her sex life with her SO would just sort of ignore that the vibrator was the problem.

Vibrators and quick sex are habits that can be broken. It does take longer to O without the vibrator if the vibrator has become the habit. But, once the vibrator is gone, and a return to focus on the SO is the goal, many new opportunities open up.

For my husband, masturbation was this 90 sec thing that involved fantasizing, etc. and mostly to other women. Ultimately, he had to give it up (that's a whole 'nother story) for the same reason we both agreed upon - we wanted to focus on each other and making our sex life the only focus in order to make our sex life the very best experience for both of us. We did that because we wanted to increase the emotional and chemistry between us. 

It was a difficult transition. I don't know how other couples perceive their connection between each other during sex. But I wanted it very badly and I really pushed for it. We watched a lot of instructional videos about becoming more aware of the other during sex. I feel we are still working on this. It has taken a whole lot of conversations, some disappointment and frustration. Probably not something most people would want to endure. But both of us are 10X happier than we've ever been.


----------



## Blaine

Faithful Wife said:


> Not me but I’ve heard stories about this type of improvement. I think GettingIt would qualify for that one maybe. Also have read lots of others, including men who went from L to H.
> 
> If sex in the way you don’t like it is causing you to not want sex (or if like in some cases, even what happens outside of sex can be the turn off), and then that changes, for a lot of people they will then get into it.
> 
> I have one friend who I know for sure would be HD for her husband if he would just do the things she has asked for. Since he refuses to do them, and he doesn’t meet in the middle he just does things his way, she no longer wants sex with him. She has explained that his approach is a turn off to her and has explained what would turn her on. He says “just can’t do it” which would be ok, except he still continues to do the exact things that turn her right off.
> 
> So if he literally just stopped doing what she hates and they found something together that worked for both of them, even if it wasn’t what she had asked for (she was open to new things), she would be all over him all the time.
> 
> She is sexless but HD because of this.


Sex can be such a mental thing that one small detail can turn someone completely off. There is such a fine balance between the physical and the mental.


----------



## happiness27

As for therapy because she doesn't see a problem - it doesn't matter if she doesn't think there's a problem because: YOU think there's a problem and your opinion is just as valid. She should go and go in an interested way because you are her partner, the person she professes to love and attending therapy with you to address the issues you want to discuss is what you do for someone you profess to love. 

Don't settle for the first therapist if it's not a good therapist. I suggest you try IC first and scout out a compatible, helpful therapist. Therapists are not equal by any means - I/we have been to some terrible ones over the years so that's when I decided to go on my own search for the top person I could find before suggesting we go together. I wanted someone highly skilled in giving couples real things to read, practice and think about. He did personality tests on both of us and consulted with each of us separately and together - he showed us how to examine our thinking for pitfalls and let us explore our psyches in a wide variety of ways. The experience happened over a period of about three years on and off but he's still our go-to advisor.


----------



## happiness27

Blaine said:


> Sex can be such a mental thing that one small detail can turn someone completely off. There is such a fine balance between the physical and the mental.


So f-ing true! This is why open, honest conversations are really important - difficult as they are. A great sex life is the reward, tho.


----------



## azimuth

Handy said:


> * azimuth
> If it’s gone on for decades then I think there has to be a thrill in the hunt or chase, the journey of figuring her out.
> 
> It could be for some men but I an not a "chase" type. I totally understand Uhtred  I have to be very careful, she won't say anything at the time, but for the next several days she will complain about how I made her sore.  and his  I think she is convinced that once a month would be a very active sex life. She is only willing to actually engage in solutions that don't require her to do anything sexual more than once every 2 weeks or so. and his idea she would be completely devastated if I left. Having a conscious has some down sides for some people. Yes I understand Uhtered's position because maybe I am worse than him about the guilt part.
> 
> azimuth
> That’s the dynamic that’s been working for decades so why change - according to them.
> 
> Well for me and my W "IT ISN'T WORKING" because there is a BIG disconnect. We do not travel and rarely do things together because she likes to stay home. I am physically at home but mentally gone. I have pursued a few things to be physically gone but the guilt is still there.*


*

Hi Handy, I’m sorry you’re going through this. I know it’s not working for you. Believe me I feel your pain. Being sexually rejected is excruciating. I meant that it is working for her. Whatever she’s doing, she gets to keep her husband and her marriage so she doesn’t feel the need to change. When I wrote that I admit I was a little jealous reading about these men who try so hard, and I was/am HD but I didn’t get to keep my husband or be married for 50 years which was my dream. It hurts.*


----------



## Handy

* happiness27
Do you do things your wife could be doing for herself? Like her laundry? Cooking her meals? *

We both do laundry because she seems to have some trouble with the stairs if the laundry is heavy. I do almost all of the food work because I want to have meals on schedule, not when she feels like it.

* Azimuth
I meant that it is working for her. Whatever she’s doing, she gets to keep her husband and her marriage so she doesn’t feel the need to change. When I wrote that I admit I was a little jealous reading about these men who try so hard, and I was/am HD but I didn’t get to keep my husband or be married for 50 years which was my dream. It hurts. *

OK, I see what you mean now. Sorry to hear your M didn't work the way you anticipated or wished. My W has me at home but doesn't have all of me. I tried giving my all but that lead to me being resentful so I kind of do my own thing while still taking care of most or basic things at home.

There are givers and takers in this world and until I got better at saying no to giving when I didn't receive something I wanted, I felt a lot of resentments and I was frustrated. Now I say no more often. I read some people lose respect for people they can manipulate. Saying no seems to be OK for me now. What still isn't easy is asking for what I want or need in many cases when the other person seems to claim they can't deliver. I know if the chemistry isn't there, some people have little regard for the other person.


----------



## uhtred

Its an interesting contrast with the discussions at asexuality.org, where lack of interest in sex is viewed as an orientation, and no more easily changed than it is to make someone gay become straight. 

Is discovering your spouse is low desire / asexual so different from discovering that they are gay?



happiness27 said:


> As for therapy because she doesn't see a problem - it doesn't matter if she doesn't think there's a problem because: YOU think there's a problem and your opinion is just as valid. She should go and go in an interested way because you are her partner, the person she professes to love and attending therapy with you to address the issues you want to discuss is what you do for someone you profess to love.
> 
> Don't settle for the first therapist if it's not a good therapist. I suggest you try IC first and scout out a compatible, helpful therapist. Therapists are not equal by any means - I/we have been to some terrible ones over the years so that's when I decided to go on my own search for the top person I could find before suggesting we go together. I wanted someone highly skilled in giving couples real things to read, practice and think about. He did personality tests on both of us and consulted with each of us separately and together - he showed us how to examine our thinking for pitfalls and let us explore our psyches in a wide variety of ways. The experience happened over a period of about three years on and off but he's still our go-to advisor.


----------



## happiness27

Handy said:


> * happiness27
> Do you do things your wife could be doing for herself? Like her laundry? Cooking her meals? *
> 
> We both do laundry because she seems to have some trouble with the stairs if the laundry is heavy. I do almost all of the food work because I want to have meals on schedule, not when she feels like it.
> 
> * Azimuth
> I meant that it is working for her. Whatever she’s doing, she gets to keep her husband and her marriage so she doesn’t feel the need to change. When I wrote that I admit I was a little jealous reading about these men who try so hard, and I was/am HD but I didn’t get to keep my husband or be married for 50 years which was my dream. It hurts. *
> 
> OK, I see what you mean now. Sorry to hear your M didn't work the way you anticipated or wished. My W has me at home but doesn't have all of me. I tried giving my all but that lead to me being resentful so I kind of do my own thing while still taking care of most or basic things at home.
> 
> There are givers and takers in this world and until I got better at saying no to giving when I didn't receive something I wanted, I felt a lot of resentments and I was frustrated. Now I say no more often. I read some people lose respect for people they can manipulate. Saying no seems to be OK for me now. What still isn't easy is asking for what I want or need in many cases when the other person seems to claim they can't deliver. I know if the chemistry isn't there, some people have little regard for the other person.


Yes, I like what you are saying here about saying no more often. What I say to my husband, who is quite a people pleaser and non-confrontational is: Nobody is going to take care of you like YOU. Push for what you want, babe. Don't just go along to get along. 

To me, I WANT that push back from him. I've been in his position in my life where I was shy and apologetic - so I sympathize and don't want that for him. 

He's really gotten a lot more confident as he practiced this more and more. Plus I get to know what he wants from me, which is important.


----------



## Faithful Wife

uhtred said:


> Its an interesting contrast with the discussions at asexuality.org, where lack of interest in sex is viewed as an orientation, and no more easily changed than it is to make someone gay become straight.
> 
> Is discovering your spouse is low desire / asexual so different from discovering that they are gay?
> 
> 
> 
> happiness27 said:
> 
> 
> 
> As for therapy because she doesn't see a problem - it doesn't matter if she doesn't think there's a problem because: YOU think there's a problem and your opinion is just as valid. She should go and go in an interested way because you are her partner, the person she professes to love and attending therapy with you to address the issues you want to discuss is what you do for someone you profess to love.
> 
> Don't settle for the first therapist if it's not a good therapist. I suggest you try IC first and scout out a compatible, helpful therapist. Therapists are not equal by any means - I/we have been to some terrible ones over the years so that's when I decided to go on my own search for the top person I could find before suggesting we go together. I wanted someone highly skilled in giving couples real things to read, practice and think about. He did personality tests on both of us and consulted with each of us separately and together - he showed us how to examine our thinking for pitfalls and let us explore our psyches in a wide variety of ways. The experience happened over a period of about three years on and off but he's still our go-to advisor.
Click to expand...

I think asexuality is a topic more people should understand. They should understand that it exists, and that there are enough asexuals in the world that you likely know more than one.

Then there is an even larger segment of the population who are not asexual but are very very low desire, like one notch up from asexual on a scale.

These people are normal and don’t need to be fixed. They do however need to be educated about the dangers of entering relationships with more sexual people. It is very hard for them to understand the drive that more sexual people have. They are not just playful dumb, they honestly don’t get what the deal with sex is.

And of course I’ll add as I always do, there are plenty of male asexuals. It is not a gender thing. Yes, it seems to be closest fit to an orientation.


----------



## personofinterest

A sexuality is not a bath thing to be fixed. Very low desire is not necessarily a badd thing to be fixed. However, if you fall into either of these categories, then if you have rational thought process you know that you are probably an outlier in the general population. So you are responsible for letting your partner know these things and not intentionally picking someone who has a need for sex knowing that you are not going to meet that lead. For example, if a man is gay, he doesn't need to go out dating a woman and leading her on knowing that he is not heterosexual. If you have no sex drive, you better find somebody else with no sex drive. Don't come looking for me lol


----------



## personofinterest

I will go even farther, if you are so sensitive that 1 crossword or 2 dishes in the sink is going to turn you off sexually, you are responsible for telling your partner that you are so high maintenance that any little thing will keep you from meeting their basic need for intimacy.


----------



## BarbedFenceRider

personofinterest said:


> I will go even farther, if you are so sensitive that 1 crossword or 2 dishes in the sink is going to turn you off sexually, you are responsible for telling your partner that you are so high maintenance that any little thing will keep you from meeting their basic need for intimacy.


But I see, where a lot of the posters here say that it is a bait and switch...Or use of "sex" as obligatory and a weapon, not loving that becomes a problem as well.

If you are Asexual, then why partner up with a person WHO YOU KNEW has intimacy and physical characteristics? There is NO WAY one could say, "Oh, I never knew..."

As for my case, the big thing is communication. Of course Happiness took it all out of context when I mentioned the "latest" drama here on the homefront. But to make little of my thoughts and views speaks volumes upon her outlook on sex in relationships in total....


----------



## Livvie

personofinterest said:


> A sexuality is not a bath thing to be fixed. Very low desire is not necessarily a badd thing to be fixed. However, if you fall into either of these categories, then if you have rational thought process you know that you are probably an outlier in the general population. So you are responsible for letting your partner know these things and not intentionally picking someone who has a need for sex knowing that you are not going to meet that lead. For example, if a man is gay, he doesn't need to go out dating a woman and leading her on knowing that he is not heterosexual. If you have no sex drive, you better find somebody else with no sex drive. Don't come looking for me lol


What muddies the water are people who "become" low drive because they lose attraction to their partners, but try to sell it as low drive/ asexual because they won't be honest- because they want to remain in the partnership because they like the other benefits of it.


----------



## badsanta

Livvie said:


> What muddies the water are people who "become" low drive because they lose attraction to their partners, but try to sell it as low drive/ asexual because they won't be honest- because they want to remain in the partnership because they like the other benefits of it.


There are studies that suggest that as we age that our sexualities transition from being hormonally driven to becoming much more mentally driven. I do feel that this is true.

So there are folks that enjoy a youth with lots of hormones but never put forth the effort to develop and discover themselves sexually from a mental perspective. Then as the hormones fade, so does their sexuality. A new partner can temporarily boost hormones, but that too will fade once the temporary boost is gone. 

As strange as this sounds, physical attraction has become less important to me as I have gotten older. Much more important is knowing who my partner is an enjoying the pleasures of how well she knows me. That type of sexual experience takes decades to develop and is far superior to that of hormones and basic physical attraction. Besides we all loose our vanity as we age, and if we nurture ourselves within our marriages as sexual beings the power of truly knowing each other becomes incredibly pleasurable. 

Some folks are just too mentally lazy and don't put in any effort. They just expect it to magically happen. Once it stops they get upset and perhaps blame a spouse for not being attractive enough to keep the magic hormones alive. That it truly sad in my opinion. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


----------



## TJW

Livvie said:


> try to sell it as low drive/ asexual because they won't be honest- because they want to remain in the partnership because they like the other benefits of it.


Remain ?? Many of these liars BEGIN the partnership wanting only the "other benefits"..... and, they are ENTITLED to have them.....
once before each pregnancy should be enough for anybody.....


----------



## farsidejunky

There are also plenty of folks who are not malicious, but just generally lack in self awareness. They aren't willing to delve deep into what they feel and why. There are also the ones who just simply hope it will be different with this partner, or denial of their nature. 

This does not make them evil, but it does tend to make them difficult partners.

I believe true bait and switch situations are far more rare than alluded to here.


TJW said:


> Remain ?? Many of these liars BEGIN the partnership wanting only the "other benefits"..... and, they are ENTITLED to have them.....
> once before each pregnancy should be enough for anybody.....


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## TJW

farsidejunky said:


> There are also plenty of folks who are not malicious, but just generally lack in self awareness.
> 
> I believe tue bait and switch situations are far more rare than alluded to here.


I shouldn't have said they were liars. I agree that you're right about the lack of self-awareness.


----------



## MEM2020

Why I believe a sufficiently high level of narcissism is indistinguishable from malice. 

If you are making choices that cause me intense distress - and are unable to understand and feel that - I’m not sure I care that much what your motivations are. 





farsidejunky said:


> There are also plenty of folks who are not malicious, but just generally lack in self awareness. They are willing to delve deep into what they feel and why. There are also the ones who just simply hope it will be different with this partner, or denial of their nature.
> 
> This does not make them evil, but it does tend to make them difficult partners.
> 
> I believe tue bait and switch situations are far more rare than alluded to here.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## uhtred

There are a lot of different situations:

Some people did bait / switch intentionally. Some changed with time. Others have never changed but neither they or their partner recognized the issue in time. (the entire idea of some people being "low desire" is fairly recent). 

I suspect the last may be the most common: People who both feel that their sex drives are "normal" but where there is a large gap, and where early on both were really straining to try to meet their partner's level of interest, but with the hope / assumption that things would get "better" with each imagining an opposite direction for "better". 





BarbedFenceRider said:


> But I see, where a lot of the posters here say that it is a bait and switch...Or use of "sex" as obligatory and a weapon, not loving that becomes a problem as well.
> 
> If you are Asexual, then why partner up with a person WHO YOU KNEW has intimacy and physical characteristics? There is NO WAY one could say, "Oh, I never knew..."
> 
> As for my case, the big thing is communication. Of course Happiness took it all out of context when I mentioned the "latest" drama here on the homefront. But to make little of my thoughts and views speaks volumes upon her outlook on sex in relationships in total....


----------



## MEM2020

This really is like religion. M2 always wanted me to convert. This is kind of a big thing to her. 

Happy to go to church with her - dress nice, always ready on time, don’t complain if the service runs late. I’m totally solid on the mechanics. But I don’t have any passion for it - any true faith. 

And every once in a while she would get really angry I hadn’t converted. Imagine how effective that was. If she had ever threatened to leave me over that - I would have just accepted we weren’t compatible. 

You can’t change someone’s core nature. 





uhtred said:


> There are a lot of different situations:
> 
> Some people did bait / switch intentionally. Some changed with time. Others have never changed but neither they or their partner recognized the issue in time. (the entire idea of some people being "low desire" is fairly recent).
> 
> I suspect the last may be the most common: People who both feel that their sex drives are "normal" but where there is a large gap, and where early on both were really straining to try to meet their partner's level of interest, but with the hope / assumption that things would get "better" with each imagining an opposite direction for "better".


----------



## MEM2020

I’ll extend the analogy a little more. 

If she told me - it would be a huge quality of life thing for me to go to church twice a week with her. I would. But if she started going every day - like her sister does - and demanded I go with her - I wouldn’t do it. 





MEM2020 said:


> This really is like religion. M2 always wanted me to convert. This is kind of a big thing to her.
> 
> Happy to go to church with her - dress nice, always ready on time, don’t complain if the service runs late. I’m totally solid on the mechanics. But I don’t have any passion for it - any true faith.
> 
> And every once in a while she would get really angry I hadn’t converted. Imagine how effective that was. If she had ever threatened to leave me over that - I would have just accepted we weren’t compatible.
> 
> You can’t change someone’s core nature.


----------



## john117

The analogy would be that it slowly goes from 2x church a week to 3x, then 3x and special events, 4x...

Things aren't quite as discrete.


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## 269370

MEM2020 said:


> The example - do you want to do X, that was totally generic.
> 
> - go for a walk
> 
> - a bike ride
> 
> - to Home Depot
> 
> - the grocery store
> 
> - dinner with friends
> 
> - a political rally
> 
> 
> 
> Saying no is not done. The only option, other than yes is: can we do that tomorrow?




What if tomorrow never comes?


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## 269370

Blaine said:


> QUESTION Has anyone gone from LD to HD just based on the quality of sex?



Yes. My wife went from fairly LD to pretty much HD. I don’t like these labels though, too simplistic.
There are several reasons. One of them is that she understood how important it is for me, for us. Another is that I figured out ways that makes the experience more pleasurable for her. But I don’t know if I can take that much credit for it. It’s possible she just gave me the key to it herself.


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## 269370

uhtred said:


> Its an interesting contrast with the discussions at asexuality.org, where lack of interest in sex is viewed as an orientation, and no more easily changed than it is to make someone gay become straight.
> 
> 
> 
> Is discovering your spouse is low desire / asexual so different from discovering that they are gay?




Asexuality is possibly a type of orientation (or closer to it). Low drive is likely not.


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## farsidejunky

I agree.

The thing one has to remember in these situations is the fact that resentment can lead to very similar circumstances as well.



MEM2020 said:


> Why I believe a sufficiently high level of narcissism is indistinguishable from malice.
> 
> If you are making choices that cause me intense distress - and are unable to understand and feel that - I’m not sure I care that much what your motivations are.


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## Wazza

MEM2020 said:


> Why I believe a sufficiently high level of narcissism is indistinguishable from malice.
> 
> If you are making choices that cause me intense distress - and are unable to understand and feel that - I’m not sure I care that much what your motivations are.


In a decades long marriage I have found a few areas where I simply cannot fathom what goes on in Mrs Wazza’s head. I simply cannot find a way to see her perspective. I have to speculate that she also cannot see mine on those circumstances.

The fact that I believe there is no malice, just a total disconnect on something, lets me work through it. If she just didn’t care I probably would give up sooner. 

The issues in question still have to be worked through. I’m just more willing to try.


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## MEM2020

I think that’s kind of the deal in adversarial marriages. 

In a collaborative marriage - commitments are sincere. 




inmyprime said:


> What if tomorrow never comes?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370

MEM2020 said:


> I think that’s kind of the deal in adversarial marriages.
> 
> 
> 
> In a collaborative marriage - commitments are sincere.



So is it like a sex debt that needs to be paid ‘or else’..? 
Or more like a request that may not be fulfilled (without consequences)?


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## 269370

PatriciaLee said:


> As a woman who is currently struggling to fulfill her husband's sexual needs, this post hits hard.
> 
> 
> 
> I spent so many years having sex with my husband when I didn't want to. Because our sex drives don't match. Because sex was painful. When birthcontrol killed my sex drive. Because I was exhausted from having newborn children, who didn't sleep more than 2-3 hours at a time for each of their lives. I still had sex when I didn't want to, to make sure his needs were being met.
> 
> 
> 
> Doing this caused me to reach a horrendous breaking point though. As much as I want to continue to meet his needs, I physically feel ill now. I feel like an absolute monster. I try to just do it to meet his needs, I know it is important. It's just killing me mentally.




This post stood out for me because it’s so rare to hear from a woman who openly admits being LD/have low attraction levels.

I read some of your posts as I was curious and it seems that your lack of desire for your husband stems more from resentment rather than actual low libido.

Could you imagine enjoying sex with anyone else (hypothetically)? Have you always not enjoyed sex?

I feel like more often than not, low libido is a symptom of other issues in the marriage. Having said that, no couple will be a perfect match sexually (or otherwise) but it doesn’t need to be a perfect match.

Is it possible that you just don’t love him anymore? Or not as much as you used to?

Having sex when you don’t want to must be very offputting, akin to inflicting abuse onto yourself. Sorry you are in this situation.


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## Handy

Here is a n older post by PatriciaLee

I'm not sure if you have read my first thread here, but I am currently working on my sexual issues with my husband. I have limited sexual attraction to him right now due to past trust and resentment issues.


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## 269370

Handy said:


> Here is a n older post by PatriciaLee
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure if you have read my first thread here, but I am currently working on my sexual issues with my husband. I have limited sexual attraction to him right now due to past trust and resentment issues.




Yes, it’s the stuff that nightmares must be made of, for husbands who are trying to figure out their wife’s low/lack of desire for them.


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## arbitrator

*Resentment, psychological aversions, control, fear, loss of trust, and the commission of infidelity are undoubtedly the biggest dampers in relationship sex!

None of these truly represent what the institution of marriage, commitment, and loving relationships are all about!*


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## Handy

I think a lot of LD sexual mismatches are actually based on some form of resentment or maybe not having the so called "chemistry" for the partner.


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## In Absentia

inmyprime said:


> Yes, it’s the stuff that nightmares must be made of, for husbands who are trying to figure out their wife’s low/lack of desire for them.


I did things I'm not proud of when I was trying to figure it out, like getting angry at my wife, who, in turn shut down. I'm not proud of that, but no info was forthcoming. I had no clue why it was happening. So, the more I got angry the more she retreated in her shell. I know now, because she has told me, 15 years too late. Our relationship is dead. We were never able to overcome our mismatch. And now that she's told me she did have sex with me when she didn't want to, how on earth can I be with my wife again? I just feel a terrible shame. Yes, we were both at fault, but I will never be able to get over it. This is what lack of communication does to your marriage.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

In Absentia said:


> I did things I'm not proud of when I was trying to figure it out, like getting angry at my wife, who, in turn shut down. I'm not proud of that, but no info was forthcoming. I had no clue why it was happening. So, the more I got angry the more she retreated in her shell. I know now, because she has told me, 15 years too late. Our relationship is dead. We were never able to overcome our mismatch.* And now that she's told me she did have sex with me when she didn't want to, how on earth can I be with my wife again?* I just feel a terrible shame. Yes, we were both at fault, but I will never be able to get over it. This is what lack of communication does to your marriage.


Yeah, mentally and emotionally, that's a killer right there. 

I posit that some women are willing to simply wait out their husbands knowing that the day will come when the T drops and he's no longer feeling rejected 29 days out of the month and then they can live happily ever after. What they don't realize is that, when that day comes, and the fella realizes it's over when it never really got going in the first place, that all the other positive feelings die with it. Happily ever after ain't happenin'.


----------



## In Absentia

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Yeah, mentally and emotionally, that's a killer right there.
> 
> What they don't realize is that, when that day comes, and the fella realizes it's over when it never really got going in the first place


The sad thing is we had a very good marriage for the first 10 years. Then something happened, communication was bad, never got to know the real reason and got angry and depressed and there you go... resentment, resentment, resentment. She didn't have to drop the bomb, though. That was harsh. But I guess at least I know it's over.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

In Absentia said:


> The sad thing is we had a very good marriage for the first 10 years. Then something happened, communication was bad, never got to know the real reason and got angry and depressed and there you go... resentment, resentment, resentment. She didn't have to drop the bomb, though. That was harsh. But I guess at least I know it's over.


I hate to say it, but there's nothing wrong with dropping the bomb. Even if it blows up your world, it's better to live with an accurate understanding of the true state of affairs than to blindly accept a fantasy. I'll take an ugly truth over a pretty lie any day.


----------



## In Absentia

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I hate to say it, but there's nothing wrong with dropping the bomb. Even if it blows up your world, it's better to live with an accurate understanding of the true state of affairs than to blindly accept a fantasy. I'll take an ugly truth over a pretty lie any day.


Totally agree. I would probably have done the same. But it just adds that extra ugliness I was hoping I didn't have to face. "Forcing" yourself to have sex with your husband every couple of weeks for 10 minutes is that bad? Even if you have an orgasm every time? It seems so...


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## Livvie

In Absentia said:


> Rocky Mountain Yeti said:
> 
> 
> 
> I hate to say it, but there's nothing wrong with dropping the bomb. Even if it blows up your world, it's better to live with an accurate understanding of the true state of affairs than to blindly accept a fantasy. I'll take an ugly truth over a pretty lie any day.
> 
> 
> 
> Totally agree. I would probably have done the same. But it just adds that extra ugliness I was hoping I didn't have to face. "Forcing" yourself to have sex with your husband every couple of weeks for 10 minutes is that bad? Even if you have an orgasm every time? It seems so...
Click to expand...

What's unfortunate is that a partner loses attraction to or feelings for the other.

But yes, in the event the unfortunate happens, it *is* that bad to have sex with someone you don't want to have sex with.


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## Holdingontoit

That is why I keep telling people who say "but she has orgasms, is the sex really that bad?" to imagine that, every time she has sex with you, she then has to go into the bathroom, urinate, and drink her pee. Is the sex that unpleasant? No. But the drinking your pee part is pretty gosh darn unappetizing. And that is what it feels like to have sex with someone you don't want to have sex with. It may not hurt physically, but it leaves an awfully bad taste in your mouth after. Do you really want to be the cause of your wife drinking her own pee over and over again? No? Then stop having sex with her when she doesn't want to. Which might well be all the time.

Don't want to be in a sexless marriage? Then get a divorce.

Or not. There is something to be said for staying and polishing your resentment into a pearly lustre. As @Rocky Mountain Yeti said, it isn't "happily ever after" for the LD either. They think it will be. But when they get there, they realize they were wrong. Kahn was correct that revenge is a dish best served cold. And a sexless marriage is very cold indeed.


----------



## Personal

Holdingontoit said:


> But the drinking your pee part is pretty gosh darn unappetizing. And that is what it feels like to have sex with someone you don't want to have sex with. It may not hurt physically, but it leaves an awfully bad taste in your mouth after.


There's plenty who are into doing that.

As to it leaving a bad taste in ones mouth, my wife has told me that it tastes like plain warm water.

That said in order to make sure it's tasteless for her, I always drink lots of San Pellegrino sparkling mineral water before she takes it in her mouth.

The biggest hurdle was the first time, she's fine with it now.



Holdingontoit said:


> Do you really want to be the cause of your wife drinking her own pee over and over again? No? Then stop having sex with her when she doesn't want to. Which might well be all the time.


As long as she is sufficiently hydrated, I'm fine with her doing that over and over with some limits.

That said I agree that one shouldn't have sex with their sexual partner whenever they don't want to have sex. Although I've always thought that such behaviour ought to be the default position for all.



Holdingontoit said:


> Don't want to be in a sexless marriage? Then get a divorce.


If hat marriage is sexless, yep.


----------



## TJW

Livvie said:


> it *is* that bad to have sex with someone you don't want to have sex with.


I find this quite hard to understand. I don't know where the bad feelings come from.

I also don't understand the psychology which explains why a woman who doesn't want to have sex with me, doesn't want me to have sex with anyone else.... unless, it's "protecting the nest".....

I have known lots of women who I didn't necessarily want to have sex with. And, as regards those women? I don't care who else, how else, when else, they have sex with someone else......I'm completely uninterested....


----------



## Holdingontoit

Personal said:


> There's plenty who are into doing that.
> 
> As to it leaving a bad taste in ones mouth, my wife has told me that it tastes like plain warm water.
> 
> That said in order to make sure it's tasteless for her, I always drink lots of San Pellegrin sparkling mineral water before she takes it in her mouth.


OK, so maybe pee wasn't sufficiently vile. What are you willing to accept IS sufficiently vile that asking you wife to drink it immediately after sex could ruin the experience for her? Diarrhea? Bleach? Lye?

The fact that many people do not find drinking pee to be unpleasant does not obviate the point that for some people it is. The fact that some people do not find having sex to be unpleasant does not obviate the point that some people do. The point of the thought exercise is to open people's minds to the idea that maybe the physical sensation experienced during sex are not unpleasant, or even are somewhat pleasant, to one's partner. But the overall experience might still be distinctly unpleasant if it involved the psychological equivalent of being asked to consume ones feces.

Yes, if your spouse admits that having sex makes them feel psychologically like they have been asked to consume excrement. it might be a good idea to ask them why and to seek to help them work through those feelings. I am not saying it is good or healthy or appropriate to feel that way. I am not saying the onus is on the HD to refrain from sex permanently as opposed to the onus being on the LD to address where those feelings are coming from or leave the relationship. I am merely trying to introduce a thought experiment that might give a frustrated HD some insight into how it could be realistic for one's spouse to experience pleasant physical sensations during sex and still refuse to engage in sex frequently or at all. Because for some who have been abused or molested or raped or brainwashed by FOO, sex is a psychologically painful even if the physical sensations are not.

As @MEM2020 frequently points out, ego protection is the enemy of solving the problem. If the HD insists that, because the LD finds the physical sensation of sex to be pleasant, they have no reasonable justification for denying sex to their partner, that insistence is unlikely to promote resolution of the mismatch. Better to find out what is leaving a bad taste in your spouse's mouth than to assert they couldn't possibly have a reasonable justification to avoid sex.


----------



## Holdingontoit

TJW said:


> I find this quite hard to understand. I don't know where the bad feelings come from.


Among other things, child abuse, rape, molestation, #MeToo, and brainwashing by FOO that sex is bad and wrong and evil and only weak depraved people enjoy sex.



> I also don't understand the psychology which explains why a woman who doesn't want to have sex with me, doesn't want me to have sex with anyone else.... unless, it's "protecting the nest".....


Exactly. Protecting the nest. Income. Co-parenting. Presentable person to bring to family events, social events, and Saturday dinner at a restaurant.



> I have known lots of women who I didn't necessarily want to have sex with. And, as regards those women? I don't care who else, how else, when else, they have sex with someone else......I'm completely uninterested....


The problem is not leaving unrelated women to their own devices. The problem is when you marry a woman you don't want to have sex with. Many people DO care when their spouse has sex with someone else. Not suggesting it is a good idea to marry someone you don't want to have sex with. But when one finds themselves in that situation, problems typically ensue.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Holdingontoit said:


> Among other things, child abuse, rape, molestation, #MeToo, and brainwashing by FOO that sex is bad and wrong and evil and only weak depraved people enjoy sex.


The resulting lack of which should have manifested well before marriage. 

The really difficult question relates to those who show no signs of such before marriage but then do so after marriage, whether immediately or 10 years down the road. 

Where do those bad feelings come from? 

They certainly can come from a bad partner who is abusive, unloving, uncaring, insensitive, unromantic, uncommunicative, or simply stops trying. They can come from legitimate medical or mental conditions. 

But in the absence of a bad partner or a bad body, what happened? Was she always this way and just faking it before? Was it a bait and switch? Was she always this way and always true to form, but you just didn't notice it when you had stars in your eyes and just "knew" that everything would work out? Did she meet someone else that turns her crank more?


----------



## MEM2020

There is absolutely ZERO chance I ever would have figured any of this stuff out - if I’d been with an unhelpful, uncommunicative partner. 

Holding - is using a specific example as a proxy for disgust. I prefer to describe the core emotion - which is - disgust. 

Disgust has a very powerful biological basis - it reduces our exposure to pathogens. 

The most powerful disgust suppressant I know of is - desire. And that explains the underlying mechanics that make pacing so incredibly important. 

I generally start out more aroused than M2 - which is why I let her set the pace on activities that involve pathogen transfer. 

It’s how I prevent sex from having chunks of time that are ‘bad’ for her. Bad sex is typically either about pain or disgust. 

A partner might tell you they are in pain - but saying they feel disgust isn’t just a near certain trip to divorce court, it is likely a very bitter divorce at that. 

But disgust is mainly a result of insufficient arousal. That’s really all it is. So if your technique is ok, than it is mainly a matter of pacing. 





Holdingontoit said:


> OK, so maybe pee wasn't sufficiently vile. What are you willing to accept IS sufficiently vile that asking you wife to drink it immediately after sex could ruin the experience for her? Diarrhea? Bleach? Lye?
> 
> The fact that many people do not find drinking pee to be unpleasant does not obviate the point that for some people it is. The fact that some people do not find having sex to be unpleasant does not obviate the point that some people do. The point of the thought exercise is to open people's minds to the idea that maybe the physical sensation experienced during sex are not unpleasant, or even are somewhat pleasant, to one's partner. But the overall experience might still be distinctly unpleasant if it involved the psychological equivalent of being asked to consume ones feces.
> 
> Yes, if your spouse admits that having sex makes them feel psychologically like they have been asked to consume excrement. it might be a good idea to ask them why and to seek to help them work through those feelings. I am not saying it is good or healthy or appropriate to feel that way. I am not saying the onus is on the HD to refrain from sex permanently as opposed to the onus being on the LD to address where those feelings are coming from or leave the relationship. I am merely trying to introduce a thought experiment that might give a frustrated HD some insight into how it could be realistic for one's spouse to experience pleasant physical sensations during sex and still refuse to engage in sex frequently or at all. Because for some who have been abused or molested or raped or brainwashed by FOO, sex is a psychologically painful even if the physical sensations are not.
> 
> As @MEM2020 frequently points out, ego protection is the enemy of solving the problem. If the HD insists that, because the LD finds the physical sensation of sex to be pleasant, they have no reasonable justification for denying sex to their partner, that insistence is unlikely to promote resolution of the mismatch. Better to find out what is leaving a bad taste in your spouse's mouth than to assert they couldn't possibly have a reasonable justification to avoid sex.


----------



## MEM2020

Ok - fair point - arousal ALSO suppresses bad memories/negative associations. 

And I’m gonna tread carefully here as I have no desire to upset anyone who does have bad memories and has been mistreated or assaulted. 

It is pretty safe to tell a committed partner that you don’t want to have sex due to bad memories. I’m sure in many cases that is true. But I think it’s important to realize that - for a partner who wants to stay married - and enforce sexlessness - the best way to minimize the destructive impact of that choice - is to claim bad memories. 

Note: I stand by what I said - desire suppresses unwanted memories just as it suppresses disgust. It’s the real reason why someone who is refusing a partner due to bad memories - can easily have an affair. 





Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> The resulting lack of which should have manifested well before marriage.
> 
> The really difficult question relates to those who show no signs of such before marriage but then do so after marriage, whether immediately or 10 years down the road.
> 
> Where do those bad feelings come from?
> 
> They certainly can come from a bad partner who is abusive, unloving, uncaring, insensitive, unromantic, uncommunicative, or simply stops trying. They can come from legitimate medical or mental conditions.
> 
> But in the absence of a bad partner or a bad body, what happened? Was she always this way and just faking it before? Was it a bait and switch? Was she always this way and always true to form, but you just didn't notice it when you had stars in your eyes and just "knew" that everything would work out? Did she meet someone else that turns her crank more?


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

MEM2020 said:


> There is absolutely ZERO chance I ever would have figured any of this stuff out - if I’d been with an unhelpful, uncommunicative partner.
> 
> Holding - is using a specific example as a proxy for disgust. I prefer to describe the core emotion - which is - disgust.
> 
> Disgust has a very powerful biological basis - it reduces our exposure to pathogens.
> 
> The most powerful disgust suppressant I know of is - desire. And that explains the underlying mechanics that make pacing so incredibly important.
> 
> I generally start out more aroused than M2 - which is why I let her set the pace on activities that involve pathogen transfer.
> 
> It’s how I prevent sex from having chunks of time that are ‘bad’ for her. Bad sex is typically either about pain or disgust.
> 
> A partner might tell you they are in pain - but saying they feel disgust isn’t just a near certain trip to divorce court, it is likely a very bitter divorce at that.
> 
> *But disgust is mainly a result of insufficient arousal. That’s really all it is. So if your technique is ok, than it is mainly a matter of pacing.*


Which assumes that the presence or absence of good technique is the bases for her arousal. That may or may not be the case. Some gonna' stay disgusted no matter what your technique.


----------



## MEM2020

Totally agree regarding external factors. Thing is - women say this thing about men - that’s often not quite right. They say: men don’t listen 

When they mean: men don’t notice stuff

For example. M2 asks my permission to do EVERYTHING. Even though I always say yes, don’t need to be asked, and might be putting myself in harms way if I said no. 

So - why does she do that? 

Because she NEEDS me to ask her the same questions. 

So the headlock thing - was R2 modeling a physical dominance move. She was showing you how to TAKE something if you wanted it. I’m not saying it was even a conscious thing. But the way you responded wasn’t good. You LET her do it TO you. You didn’t play WITH her. A lot of respect is gained and lost in a marriage - non verbally. 

A lot of men are so jammed up with protector impulses, and chivalry and ... fill in the blank - the idea of playfully wrestling - they mentally short circuit. 








Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Which assumes that the presence or absence of good technique is the bases for her arousal. That may or may not be the case. Some gonna' stay disgusted no matter what your technique.


----------



## MEM2020

And for clarity I feel obligated to mention a few things: My/our sex life is not optimal. It has transitioned from fantastic to great to good to where it is now - which is merely ok. And it is only ‘ok’ because we both make a good faith effort. 







Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Which assumes that the presence or absence of good technique is the bases for her arousal. That may or may not be the case. Some gonna' stay disgusted no matter what your technique.


----------



## farsidejunky

You didn't recognize the **** test for what it was, RMY.


MEM2020 said:


> Totally agree regarding external factors. Thing is - women say this thing about men - that’s often not quite right. They say: men don’t listen
> 
> When they mean: men don’t notice stuff
> 
> For example. M2 asks my permission to do EVERYTHING. Even though I always say yes, don’t need to be asked, and might be putting myself in harms way if I said no.
> 
> So - why does she do that?
> 
> Because she NEEDS me to ask her the same questions.
> 
> So the headlock thing - was R2 modeling a physical dominance move. She was showing you how to TAKE something if you wanted it. I’m not saying it was even a conscious thing. But the way you responded wasn’t good. You LET her do it TO you. You didn’t play WITH her. A lot of respect is gained and lost in a marriage - non verbally.
> 
> A lot of men are so jammed up with protector impulses, and chivalry and ... fill in the blank - the idea of playfully wrestling - they mentally short circuit.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Hmmm...

Food for thought. So far, I'm not buying it. There are factors and behaviors/responses to which you are not privy. Other things lead me to believe that trying to force or dominate would be a death blow to what little intimacy we have. But I'll not dismiss this out of hand. I'll take it under advisement and keep it in my mind as a possibility.


----------



## MEM2020

I am not speaking as a mod. Merely as a fellow traveler. 

Let’s begin at the beginning of your relationship. 

On the receiving end of R2’s physical ‘conduct’ you never mentioned feeling forced. In fact - you LIKED IT. And that’s because R2 knew what she was doing. 

So now I ask a simpler question. Who’s the dominant spouse in your marriage? Well that’s obvious - since:
1. R2 is clearly determined to stay married to you - and is highly sensitive to potential sexual rivals. 
2. That means you’ve been meeting her core needs and she is therefore happy with you.
3. She is also aware you aren’t quite so happy - and isn’t worried at all. Because she is the dominant partner. 

And your fear of impacting a sexual relationship that sounds terrible - is at least half the problem. 





Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Hmmm...
> 
> Food for thought. So far, I'm not buying it. There are factors and behaviors/responses to which you are not privy. Other things lead me to believe that trying to force or dominate would be a death blow to what little intimacy we have. But I'll not dismiss this out of hand. I'll take it under advisement and keep it in my mind as a possibility.


----------



## In Absentia

In my case, I believe she was protecting the nest... or she didn't know what to do. A bit of honesty would have been good.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

MEM2020 said:


> I am not speaking as a mod. Merely as a fellow traveler.
> 
> Let’s begin at the beginning of your relationship.
> 
> On the receiving end of R2’s physical ‘conduct’ you never mentioned feeling forced. In fact - you LIKED IT. And that’s because R2 knew what she was doing.
> 
> So now I ask a simpler question. Who’s the dominant spouse in your marriage? Well that’s obvious - since:
> 1. R2 is clearly determined to stay married to you - and is highly sensitive to potential sexual rivals.
> 2. That means you’ve been meeting her core needs and she is therefore happy with you.
> 3. She is also aware you aren’t quite so happy - and isn’t worried at all. Because she is the dominant partner.
> 
> And your fear of impacting a sexual relationship that sounds terrible - is at least half the problem.


I liked it because it was so ludicrous; that she would pretend to compel me by physical force. On top of the whole difference in physical strength between men and women, I am larger a d much stronger than the average man while she is even more slight than the average woman. It was laughable...but in a good way. Playful and fun. Nothing more.

Shes not worried worried because she knows o honor my commitments... just as she does. We are no different in th as t regard. The similarities in morals is one of the things that brought us together. 

I'm not clear on this concept of dominant partner either. There are important aspects of our lives I have driven as well. But most often, we work as a team A relationship can be balanced. 

Whatever disagreements we may have, my wife is, above all things, honest and genuine. You seem to have the impression shes some sort of master schemer.


----------



## Holdingontoit

MEM2020 said:


> It is pretty safe to tell a committed partner that you don’t want to have sex due to bad memories.


Short term. Safe in the moment to avoid sex in the moment. But incredibly destabilizing to the marriage. Especially if the status quo is that the person with bad memories is frequently refusing to have sex and their spouse has been jumping through hoops vainly trying to get their partner in the mood.

Here is the dilemma for the LD if they admit to having bad memories: now the onus is on them to deal with the problem. Now they can't reasonably keep asking the HD to jump through hoops to get them in the mood. Now they can't blame the rejections on "I am tired" or "it is late" or "you didn't do the dishes". Now, if the problem is "permanent", and the HD is likely to have far less patience waiting for the LD to give some indication they are addressing the issue. Now there is a higher risk the HD will choose divorce.

So no, in many cases it is not safe at all for the LD to admit that their refusal is based on bad memories. Not safe at all. If it were safe, more LDs would admit the truth more easily.


----------



## MEM2020

There are important aspects of our life that I have driven as well. 

I could say that also about me and M2. But it sidesteps the main point which is that often, one person is mostly running the show. That doesn’t make the more dominant spouse a master manipulator by any stretch. Master manipulator eh? I never said anything remotely like that. 

I define marital dominance based on a single metric: how well are your overall needs met in the marriage

Like I said - she’s happy - you are quite a bit less happy. She’s the more dominant spouse. 

It is hard make progress when someone goes into into: we are both high integrity

This despite just mentioning that - in response to a female cousin showing interest in you - R2 immediately went into ‘mate guarding mode’.

I’ve never seen this reflex before with you Rocky - but it seems like you’ve slipped into ego protective mode. 





Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I liked it because it was so ludicrous; that she would pretend to compel me by physical force. On top of the whole difference in physical strength between men and women, I am larger a d much stronger than the average man while she is even more slight than the average woman. It was laughable...but in a good way. Playful and fun. Nothing more.
> 
> Shes not worried worried because she knows o honor my commitments... just as she does. We are no different in th as t regard. The similarities in morals is one of the things that brought us together.
> 
> I'm not clear on this concept of dominant partner either. There are important aspects of our lives I have driven as well. But most often, we work as a team A relationship can be balanced.
> 
> Whatever disagreements we may have, my wife is, above all things, honest and genuine. You seem to have the impression shes some sort of master schemer.


----------



## MEM2020

Rocky,

You work as a team - on your sex life? Team work is easy putting furniture together. A lot harder in the bedroom. 




Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I liked it because it was so ludicrous; that she would pretend to compel me by physical force. On top of the whole difference in physical strength between men and women, I am larger a d much stronger than the average man while she is even more slight than the average woman. It was laughable...but in a good way. Playful and fun. Nothing more.
> 
> Shes not worried worried because she knows o honor my commitments... just as she does. We are no different in th as t regard. The similarities in morals is one of the things that brought us together.
> 
> I'm not clear on this concept of dominant partner either. There are important aspects of our lives I have driven as well. But most often, we work as a team A relationship can be balanced.
> 
> Whatever disagreements we may have, my wife is, above all things, honest and genuine. You seem to have the impression shes some sort of master schemer.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

MEM2020 said:


> There are important aspects of our life that I have driven as well.
> 
> I could say that also about me and M2. But it sidesteps the main point which is that often, one person is mostly running the show. That doesn’t make the more dominant spouse a master manipulator by any stretch. Master manipulator eh? I never said anything remotely like that.
> 
> I define marital dominance based on a single metric: how well are your overall needs met in the marriage
> 
> Like I said - she’s happy - you are quite a bit less happy. She’s the more dominant spouse.
> 
> It is hard make progress when someone goes into into: we are both high integrity
> 
> This despite just mentioning that - in response to a female cousin showing interest in you - R2 immediately went into ‘mate guarding mode’.
> 
> I’ve never seen this reflex before with you Rocky - but it seems like you’ve slipped into ego protective mode.


No, just trying to understand. If that's your definition of dominance in a marriage, then based on that, your conclusions are solid. I've just never considered that as the measure of dominance. I see the merit in your position.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

MEM2020 said:


> Rocky,
> 
> You work as a team - on your sex life? Team work is easy putting furniture together. A lot harder in the bedroom.


The thing is, she honestly believes she's worked very hard at it. She's forever caught up in the old stereotype that men are all insatiable horndogs who'll never be happy, no matter how much you do it, and women are all driven by a need for romance and stability and are perfectly satisfied with sex once a cycle. 

So when she was making sure we were doing it once a week, that seemed like great effort of her part.


----------



## Livvie

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> MEM2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rocky,
> 
> You work as a team - on your sex life? Team work is easy putting furniture together. A lot harder in the bedroom.
> 
> 
> 
> The thing is, she honestly believes she's worked very hard at it. She's forever caught up in the old stereotype that men are all insatiable horndogs who'll never be happy, no matter how much you do it, and women are all driven by a need for romance and stability and are perfectly satisfied with sex once a cycle.
> 
> So when she was making sure we were doing it once a week, that seemed like great effort of her part.
Click to expand...

Whatever her "stereotype", she's still not working as a team if she uses that stereotype to not really understand your feelings on the matter and as a basis for measuring what goes on in your sex life. Her viewpoint ruled/rules.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Holdingontoit said:


> Among other things, child abuse, rape, molestation, #MeToo, and brainwashing by FOO that sex is bad and wrong and evil and only weak depraved people enjoy sex.


Serious question. What, precisely, do you see as the issue with metoo? Who is FOO?


----------



## NobodySpecial

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> The thing is, she honestly believes she's worked very hard at it. She's forever caught up in the old stereotype that men are all insatiable horndogs who'll never be happy, no matter how much you do it, and women are all driven by a need for romance and stability and are perfectly satisfied with sex once a cycle.
> 
> So when she was making sure we were doing it once a week, that *seemed like* great effort of her part.


Who starts the understanding process. It does not SEEM LIKE a great effort. It IS. Not saying that accepting that normal is acceptable. But recognizing and empathizing with her reality can go a long way. It likely won't go all the way. I always wonder why people don't reach out for marital counseling in cases like these. It is not a lot different than a kid hearing from another adult, not their parent, about something. Someone ELSE, a professional, is more likely to over come a spouse who is perceived as agenda pushing.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Livvie said:


> Whatever her "stereotype", she's still not working as a team if she uses that stereotype to not really understand your feelings on the matter and as a basis for measuring what goes on in your sex life. Her viewpoint ruled/rules.


No, I think she has tried to understand my feelings (which do match the male stereotype fairly well, so there's no disconnect there). 

The reason I bring up her commitment tot he stereotypes is that I have tried to explain it to her, that just because she's naturally that way doesn't mean every woman's that way and she can't use that as an excuse. But she is that way, so maybe she can. I married her, not some hypothetical more naturally sexually active person. 

In the sense that she's unwilling to believe not everybody matches her natural state, or that she actually does have the capacity to alter her state (to a degree), then you're right, she's not working as a team. That's a key source of frustration. (and speaks to @MEM2020 's definition of dominance).


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

Livvie said:


> Whatever her "stereotype", she's still not working as a team if she uses that stereotype to not really understand your feelings on the matter and as a basis for measuring what goes on in your sex life. Her viewpoint ruled/rules.


Or her viewpoint is respected? Everything in a man's life has temperaments, from a car to the woman in his life, to fishing...
A man has to work with his chosen items in his life.

*I'm NOT comparing women to cars, etc... it's just the best analogy I can think of at the moment. 90% of my brain is working on a network design at the moment.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Livvie said:


> Whatever her "stereotype", she's still not working as a team if she uses that stereotype to not really understand your feelings on the matter and as a basis for measuring what goes on in your sex life. Her viewpoint ruled/rules.


Somebody has to change the narrative. A combative approach as this suggests is not likely to be useful.


----------



## farsidejunky

Master schemer? Not at all.

She is following what feels natural to her...just as you are to you 

A poster (since left) used to say that if a man claims his marriage is 50/50, the wife is the dominant partner. I used to disagree with him, but not anymore.

Do you know what makes your wife the dominant partner? Absence of fear. Not fear as in fear-for-ones-life, but fear as in she can under deliver and it will have no impact on the relationship. In fact, I doubt that fear ever crosses her mind. In other words, all is well for her, and will continue it to be so, no matter what happens. 

Conversely, you fear rocking the boat as it will reduce your already strained frequency. So you don't take steps that lead you to resent yourself less because you fear what you might lose.

The end result is you resent your wife for your own choice to do nothing... while she loves you, is comfortable with you, but subconsciously lost respect for you.

It is a mind **** until you understand the dynamics at play. 



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I liked it because it was so ludicrous; that she would pretend to compel me by physical force. On top of the whole difference in physical strength between men and women, I am larger a d much stronger than the average man while she is even more slight than the average woman. It was laughable...but in a good way. Playful and fun. Nothing more.
> 
> Shes not worried worried because she knows o honor my commitments... just as she does. We are no different in th as t regard. The similarities in morals is one of the things that brought us together.
> 
> I'm not clear on this concept of dominant partner either. There are important aspects of our lives I have driven as well. But most often, we work as a team A relationship can be balanced.
> 
> Whatever disagreements we may have, my wife is, above all things, honest and genuine. You seem to have the impression shes some sort of master schemer.




Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky

QFT.

Furthermore, integrity and consistency are the go to excuses for inaction.


MEM2020 said:


> There are important aspects of our life that I have driven as well.
> 
> I could say that also about me and M2. But it sidesteps the main point which is that often, one person is mostly running the show. That doesn’t make the more dominant spouse a master manipulator by any stretch. Master manipulator eh? I never said anything remotely like that.
> 
> I define marital dominance based on a single metric: how well are your overall needs met in the marriage
> 
> Like I said - she’s happy - you are quite a bit less happy. She’s the more dominant spouse.
> 
> It is hard make progress when someone goes into into: we are both high integrity
> 
> This despite just mentioning that - in response to a female cousin showing interest in you - R2 immediately went into ‘mate guarding mode’.
> 
> I’ve never seen this reflex before with you Rocky - but it seems like you’ve slipped into ego protective mode.


Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky

I know I am a bit behind, but I want to address these points. 

When your wife makes comments about men being horn dogs, do you backpedal, or floor it? 

Do you realize this is another **** test? 

Your response should be akin to, "All men are horndogs? No way!", as you reach up and gently squeeze her breast with your best chesire cat smile. Not to initiate, but to show her through actions your expectations...that your relationship is sexual. Period.


Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> The thing is, she honestly believes she's worked very hard at it. She's forever caught up in the old stereotype that men are all insatiable horndogs who'll never be happy, no matter how much you do it, and women are all driven by a need for romance and stability and are perfectly satisfied with sex once a cycle.
> 
> So when she was making sure we were doing it once a week, that seemed like great effort of her part.


Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky

Explaining more than once or repeatedly trying to get her to see it your way are moves of a submissive. 

Never sell anything to your wife. Explain your position once. Then she can accept it...or not. 

Furthermore, while your words say you want a better sex life, your actions are clearly communicating something entirely different.


Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> No, I think she has tried to understand my feelings (which do match the male stereotype fairly well, so there's no disconnect there).
> 
> The reason I bring up her commitment tot he stereotypes is that I have tried to explain it to her, that just because she's naturally that way doesn't mean every woman's that way and she can't use that as an excuse. But she is that way, so maybe she can. I married her, not some hypothetical more naturally sexually active person.
> 
> In the sense that she's unwilling to believe not everybody matches her natural state, or that she actually does have the capacity to alter her state (to a degree), then you're right, she's not working as a team. That's a key source of frustration. (and speaks to @MEM2020 's definition of dominance).


Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## MEM2020

Rocky,
For avoidance of doubt - if I have to choose between being too nice, or too aggressive with M2, I will almost always choose too nice. Usually I’m able to find a golden rule path and frame it as such. 

But my default reflex is to put M2 first. It just is. Always has been. 

And to be fair, in bed that’s true in reverse. 

Thing is - I’ve made this easier for her than maybe the average bear does. Main thing being that I’m doing this with her, not to her. That includes real time identification of guilt driven body language. 

Which produces a chuckle from me and a ‘relax, I’m fine, maybe tomorrow’. 







Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> No, just trying to understand. If that's your definition of dominance in a marriage, then based on that, your conclusions are solid. I've just never considered that as the measure of dominance. I see the merit in your position.


----------



## MEM2020

It is so rare that I disagree with Far. 

But the approach below - seems like a bad idea to me. 

This type thing does not feel collaborative at all. 





farsidejunky said:


> I know I am a bit behind, but I want to address these points.
> 
> When your wife makes comments about men being horn dogs, do you backpedal, or floor it?
> 
> Do you realize this is another **** test?
> 
> Your response should be akin to, "All men are horndogs? No way!", as you reach up and gently squeeze her breast with your best chesire cat smile. Not to initiate, but to show her through actions your expectations...that your relationship is sexual. Period.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

NobodySpecial said:


> Who starts the understanding process. It does not SEEM LIKE a great effort. It IS. Not saying that accepting that normal is acceptable. But recognizing and empathizing with her reality can go a long way. It likely won't go all the way. I always wonder why people don't reach out for marital counseling in cases like these. It is not a lot different than a kid hearing from another adult, not their parent, about something. Someone ELSE, a professional, is more likely to over come a spouse who is perceived as agenda pushing.


I might be inclined to agree with you...
... but I have far too many examples outside of sex where she thought she was putting forth great effort and I can't even begin to believe she was. She's never been one to stretch herself, or exert herself more than necessary, in any of life's endeavors. So naturally, I think she's doing the same thing with regard to sex.


----------



## farsidejunky

Perhaps you are right. 

What I know is this is exactly what I did to my wife when things were beginning to rebound. I used to follow RMY's path, and it was an exercise in futility. 

It has now become an inside joke between us.

Her: All you think about is sex.

Me, squeezing her butt: Yep. Why are you wearing so much clothing?

Her, grinning: *******.

This is almost daily. And it is not initiation, unless I follow it up with telling her I want a date later that evening, or something to that effect.

Did it start that way? No.

But it is a regular thing between us now.




MEM2020 said:


> It is so rare that I disagree with Far.
> 
> But the approach below - seems like a bad idea to me.
> 
> This type thing does not feel collaborative at all.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

farsidejunky said:


> Master schemer? Not at all.
> 
> She is following what feels natural to her...just as you are to you
> 
> A poster (since left) used to say that if a man claims his marriage is 50/50, the wife is the dominant partner. I used to disagree with him, but not anymore.
> 
> Do you know what makes your wife the dominant partner? Absence of fear. Not fear as in fear-for-ones-life, but fear as in she can under deliver and it will have no impact on the relationship. In fact, I doubt that fear ever crosses her mind. In other words, all is well for her, and will continue it to be so, no matter what happens.
> 
> Conversely, you fear rocking the boat as it will reduce your already strained frequency. So you don't take steps that lead you to resent yourself less because you fear what you might lose.
> 
> The end result is you resent your wife for your own choice to do nothing... while she loves you, is comfortable with you, but subconsciously lost respect for you.
> 
> It is a mind **** until you understand the dynamics at play.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


RE: Absence of fear. I also have the same absence of fear she does. I could not be a great husband and I know it's not going to change anything as well. Were I to, for instance, stop making gourmet dinners or going on long walks or taking her on entertaining travel, she would behave the same toward me. I take off and ride my mountain bike as much as I please. So I don't see "absence of fear" as a basis of imbalance. 

Nor have I failed to rock the boat, nor have I done nothing. I have rocked the boat many times, just to no avail, or worse Each time, I pull back until I can think of another approach. The thing is, the more approaches I try without success, the fewer are left, and the lower the likelyhood that any of them will work. 

I don't resent my wife for my choice to do nothing as that is simply not the case. I do resent her for her lack of willingness to try anything out of her natural comfort zone. 

At this point, about the only thing I haven't tried is divorce. If that causes me some loss of "respect" then so be it. I think you and I have a rather different view of respect.


----------



## MEM2020

The main play I would run in this situation is this: 

My goal here is to help you see sex as an extension of the rest of the marriage. Not something you LET me do to you. Rather something we do WITH each other. 

Not all that different than cooking together. Would you be embarrassed to tell me you want the food more or less spicy? More or less salty? Or even better - that you are REALLY hungry. 

But the key key thing here - is to differentiate between sincere if painful responses. Such as: you go too fast, or you kiss too wet or ... And stonewalling which is her claiming that there is nothing she can tell you to improve her experience. 

My guess - R2 thinks that overtly sexual women lack - class? Self control? 

I loathe the expression: a lady in public and a ***** in private (the bedroom)

And prefer: capable of restraint in public, and totally uninhibited in private 

R2 has some bad programming in her head. Collaboration is required. 





Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> No, I think she has tried to understand my feelings (which do match the male stereotype fairly well, so there's no disconnect there).
> 
> The reason I bring up her commitment tot he stereotypes is that I have tried to explain it to her, that just because she's naturally that way doesn't mean every woman's that way and she can't use that as an excuse. But she is that way, so maybe she can. I married her, not some hypothetical more naturally sexually active person.
> 
> In the sense that she's unwilling to believe not everybody matches her natural state, or that she actually does have the capacity to alter her state (to a degree), then you're right, she's not working as a team. That's a key source of frustration. (and speaks to @MEM2020 's definition of dominance).


----------



## DTO

I get that this happens - it happened to me. But I don't understand the mentality by which someone feels lying to one's partner is acceptable behavior.

No way I could do this. This is the counterpart to a man faking feelings to get laid, which is repugnant.

If I don't like you in that way, I will tell you up front and take my lumps. I will figure out how to do my part for any kids, find a suitable job, take the lifestyle hit, deal with being alone, etc. I don't want to take any relationship benefits from you, if I don't feel that way about you.

My advice in these situations is to be honest about your feelings with your spouse. Loss of attraction is bad enough; there's no need to add resentment to the mix from feeling used.



Holdingontoit said:


> Short term. Safe in the moment to avoid sex in the moment. But incredibly destabilizing to the marriage. Especially if the status quo is that the person with bad memories is frequently refusing to have sex and their spouse has been jumping through hoops vainly trying to get their partner in the mood.
> 
> Here is the dilemma for the LD if they admit to having bad memories: now the onus is on them to deal with the problem. Now they can't reasonably keep asking the HD to jump through hoops to get them in the mood. Now they can't blame the rejections on "I am tired" or "it is late" or "you didn't do the dishes". Now, if the problem is "permanent", and the HD is likely to have far less patience waiting for the LD to give some indication they are addressing the issue. Now there is a higher risk the HD will choose divorce.
> 
> So no, in many cases it is not safe at all for the LD to admit that their refusal is based on bad memories. Not safe at all. If it were safe, more LDs would admit the truth more easily.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

farsidejunky said:


> I know I am a bit behind, but I want to address these points.
> 
> When your wife makes comments about men being horn dogs, do you backpedal, or floor it?
> 
> Do you realize this is another **** test?
> 
> Your response should be akin to, "All men are horndogs? No way!", as you reach up and gently squeeze her breast with your best chesire cat smile. Not to initiate, but to show her through actions your expectations...that your relationship is sexual. Period.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Maybe I need a definition of "**** test" so I can understand the relevance. 

And there was a time when I did exactly as you suggest. So while she was either unwilling or incapable of delivering, she still got the ego boost of me showing desire for her. Best of both worlds for her: she gets ego kibbles but still doesn't have to respond. Nothing new for me.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

farsidejunky said:


> Explaining more than once or repeatedly trying to get her to see it your way are moves of a submissive.
> 
> Never sell anything to your wife. Explain your position once. Then she can accept it...or not.
> 
> Furthermore, while your words say you want a better sex life, your actions are clearly communicating something entirely different.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Well, yeah. I'm done doing that. And she knows it. That message was delivered rather flatlined; no emotion, just as a matter of fact. 

The only remaining action is divorce. So if you're saying my unwillingess to do so is proof I'm not truly committed to a better sex life, so be it. Anything short of that, and I'm not buying it.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

MEM2020 said:


> Rocky,
> For avoidance of doubt - if I have to choose between being too nice, or too aggressive with M2, I will almost always choose too nice. Usually I’m able to find a golden rule path and frame it as such.
> 
> But my default reflex is to put M2 first. It just is. Always has been.
> 
> *And to be fair, in bed that’s true in reverse.
> 
> Thing is - I’ve made this easier for her than maybe the average bear does. Main thing being that I’m doing this with her, not to her. That includes real time identification of guilt driven body language.
> *
> Which produces a chuckle from me and a ‘relax, I’m fine, maybe tomorrow’.


Sorry, I just didn't follow the bolded part. Can you put that in other terms?


----------



## farsidejunky

I have not once suggested divorce, nor would I except in the most extreme examples (@holdingontoit comes to mind).

I always advocate for doing less in these situation. But then again, I don't have the EQ nor the ability to build collaboration that Mem has, so you may be better suited to listen to him.

What drives your wife? What does she actually want, need, and desire from life?



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Well, yeah. I'm done doing that. And she knows it. That message was delivered rather flatlined; no emotion, just as a matter of fact.
> 
> The only remaining action is divorce. So if you're saying my unwillingess to do so is proof I'm not truly committed to a better sex life, so be it. Anything short of that, and I'm not buying it.


----------



## PigglyWiggly

I don't remember seeing an answer to this question Rocky. Would she LIKE to have sexual desire for you?


----------



## MEM2020

I apologize for being unclear. 

When M2 initiates sex, there is a spectrum:
1. - Happy, wife awake and aggressive 
2. - Willing to because the clock in her head reminds her that X days (typically 7) have passed. So she might say: gosh babe, we haven't connected in months. And I likely reply with: I guess this morning wasn’t very memorable. And then I take a shower and M2 in that order
3. - Do you want to connect? If i glance at her and read either fatigue, or guilt or anxiety - I respond with some light banter that makes it obvious that I can tell she feels obligated but doesn’t really want to. 

And (3) isn’t that rare. 




Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Sorry, I just didn't follow the bolded part. Can you put that in other terms?


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

MEM2020 said:


> The main play I would run in this situation is this:
> 
> My goal here is to help you see sex as an extension of the rest of the marriage. Not something you LET me do to you. Rather something we do WITH each other.
> 
> Not all that different than cooking together. Would you be embarrassed to tell me you want the food more or less spicy? More or less salty? Or even better - that you are REALLY hungry.
> 
> But the key key thing here - is to differentiate between sincere if painful responses. Such as: you go too fast, or you kiss too wet or ... And stonewalling which is her claiming that there is nothing she can tell you to improve her experience.
> 
> My guess - R2 thinks that overtly sexual women lack - class? Self control?
> 
> I loathe the expression: a lady in public and a ***** in private (the bedroom)
> 
> And prefer: capable of restraint in public, and totally uninhibited in private
> 
> R2 has some bad programming in her head. Collaboration is required.


I'm sure this is very much how she feels already. Nothing indicates she doesn't think of it as very much a together activity as opposed to a one way activity. She is sincere when she says she does enjoy it... when she can.

The stonewalling is an interesting concept, and I'm not exactly sure where she lies on that continuum. In my simple minded, linear thinking, Y chromosome driven kind of way, I explained that more orgasms beget more desire which begets more orgasms.... and thus you can create a sort of positive vicious cycle. She insists that an orgasm means she's satisfied, and remains so for some time. It kills drive rather than igniting it. Bottom line is she says shes perfectly happy her experience and with my performance, so she has no thoughts about how to improve her experience. It's just not necessary. 

I have wondered about this myself. She does have rather old fashioned sexual mores, but it hasn't always been that way. For one, she wasn't raised religious and she does comment on the damage religion does in other areas of life. She initiated our first intercourse. She was also the first to initiate an activity other than intercourse. But that experimentation was short-lived. I don't think she was shy about exploring, but rather she quickly settled into basic vanilla as her genuine preference. At some point, she did seem to develop the attitude that things other than intercourse are unnatural. She also extends that to thinking that, since orgasm is relatively infrequent, that it's best to just accept that infrequency, than to do something unnatural to try to increase probability/frequency of it occurring.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

farsidejunky said:


> I have not once suggested divorce, nor would I except in the most extreme examples (@holdingontoit comes to mind).
> 
> I always advocate for doing less in these situation. But then again, I don't have the EQ nor the ability to build collaboration that Mem has, so you may be better suited to listen to him.
> 
> What drives your wife? What does she actually want, need, and desire from life?


Hmmmm... what drives my wife......hmmmmmm

Desire for stability. Risk avoidance. Maximum comfort and minimum drama, but with minimum effort. Certainty of return on investment but with minimal acceptable risk. Freedom to live her life without any kind of pressure.

Not particularly realistic, I know. Especially for someone who is, by all other accounts, eminently logical and well grounded. 

More specifically, now that we're empty nesters, she really wants to enjoy our life together, like when we were free before the kids came. "This is OUR time." And she has gotten rather clingy since last junior departed... and more touchy feely (fondling muscles, running fingers through chest hair, etc). Unfortunately, the timing of this change coincides with some very uncomfortable and difficult to manage menopausal symptoms. So while she has been more agreeable to sexual activity from a mental and emotional standpoint, physically, it's just a non-starter. She has been very aggressive about seeking treatments which will make her feel better and make systems available for use. But while we can have sex once in a while, she still needs a lot of recovery time inbetween.


----------



## CharlieParker

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> difficult to manage menopausal symptoms. So while she has been more agreeable to sexual activity from a mental and emotional standpoint, physically, it's just a non-starter.


I haven't really read thread, sorry if I'm off base.

Define sexual activity, or her definition. When younger my wife was more or less PiV or forget it, and that was fine because it work then, now not so much. We've had to broaden our definitions and focus more on each other and not the actual atc(s). 

We are in a similar-ish situation, postmenopause with other physical issues and bonus points for my ED, but it hasn't stopped "naked time". No pressure from me for PiV but let's just see what happens, and something sexy usually happens (even if that occasionally means me finishing myself off on her boobs).


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

@Rocky Mountain Yeti 
Having gone through menopausal time, now post for a year I can share that particular tunnel had an ending at least.

Post means hormones are different but our sex life remained. I know all are different in this stage so no real comparisons can be had but we (W) made it. 

There are days and there are days but many more good than rocky. Just thought I'd share.

To use or disregard as desired. 😊


----------



## Buddy400

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> The resulting lack of which should have manifested well before marriage.
> 
> The really difficult question relates to those who show no signs of such before marriage but then do so after marriage, whether immediately or 10 years down the road.
> 
> Where do those bad feelings come from?
> 
> They certainly can come from a bad partner who is abusive, unloving, uncaring, insensitive, unromantic, uncommunicative, or simply stops trying. They can come from legitimate medical or mental conditions.
> 
> But in the absence of a bad partner or a bad body, what happened? Was she always this way and just faking it before? Was it a bait and switch? Was she always this way and always true to form, but you just didn't notice it when you had stars in your eyes and just "knew" that everything would work out? Did she meet someone else that turns her crank more?


Women's sexual desire is far more variable than men's. this is no doubt due to testosterone.

I know it's PC to say that men and women's sexual desire is the same, but it's not true and it's damaging to assume they are and apply to a woman's sexual desire the same causal factors that you would to a man.

NRE (New Relationship Energy), hormones, monthly cycles, pregnancy, breastfeeding, all can affect a woman's sexual desire.

Even with @MEM2020's "disgust" theory, the level of desire to overcome the disgust factor depends on the level of sexual desire that exists at the time the contact begins. Early in a relationship, the needed level of desire exists before the contact begins. After 20 years, kids, etc it's there's possibly not enough excitement at the start to even imagine trying to overcome it.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

CharlieParker said:


> I haven't really read thread, sorry if I'm off base.
> 
> Define sexual activity, or her definition. When younger my wife was more or less PiV or forget it, and that was fine because it work then, now not so much. We've had to broaden our definitions and focus more on each other and not the actual atc(s).
> 
> We are in a similar-ish situation, postmenopause with other physical issues and bonus points for my ED, but it hasn't stopped "naked time". No pressure from me for PiV but let's just see what happens, and something sexy usually happens (even if that occasionally means me finishing myself off on her boobs).


Those are good questions. I've alluded to them before, but I'll be clear and direct here. 

My wife is also pretty PIV exclusive, although I have been able to push exceptions at times, and some portion of those times, she has really enjoyed it. But she always falls back to what she perceives to be "natural" which is PIV.

I have posited to her that one of the glories of female anatomy is that the clitoris is located outside the vagina. While this may be problematic in PIV producing orgasm, the silver lining is that the clitoris can still do its thing without requiring the participation of the vagina. So even if the V is not up to the task, that shouldn't interfere with sharing sexual intimacy. But that only works so long as she's not feeling adverse to "unnatural" forms of sex. Also, and this is perfectly understandable, if the vagina is feeling out of sorts, she just doesn't feel sexual overall.


----------



## Holdingontoit

NobodySpecial said:


> Serious question. What, precisely, do you see as the issue with metoo? Who is FOO?


Aside from the instances where a #MeToo event would qualify as rape, sexual battery, etc., I meant a woman being pressured to have sex to keep her job, or to get promoted, or something like that. Might not have lead to sex - maybe she told the guy he was a disgusting jerk and stormed out of the room - but might have lead the woman to view men and sex and men's desire for sex in a way that makes it harder for her to enjoy sex with her spouse.

That was my point. Someone asked what kinds of events could lead a woman to view sex negatively. My list was intended to include events that do not involve any sexual touching but might well leave a very negative impression of men and sex in the woman's mind.

FOO = family of origin.


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## CharlieParker

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> While this may be problematic in PIV producing orgasm, the silver lining is that the clitoris can still do its thing without requiring the participation of the vagina.


No advice, sorry, maybe a little hope, my wife did have a cunnilingus light bulb moment in her mid 40s and finally found a toy that can get her off in her 50s. Which I'm so glad for as she longer comes from PiV, and my fingers can only do so much.


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## NobodySpecial

Holdingontoit said:


> Aside from the instances where a #MeToo event would qualify as rape, sexual battery, etc., I meant a woman being pressured to have sex to keep her job, or to get promoted, or something like that. Might not have lead to sex - maybe she told the guy he was a disgusting jerk and stormed out of the room - but might have lead the woman to view men and sex and men's desire for sex in a way that makes it harder for her to enjoy sex with her spouse.
> 
> That was my point. Someone asked what kinds of events could lead a woman to view sex negatively. My list was intended to include events that do not involve any sexual touching but might well leave a very negative impression of men and sex in the woman's mind.
> 
> FOO = family of origin.


Sigh. Ok. Good luck.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Rocky Mountain Yeti View said:


> The resulting lack of which should have manifested well before marriage.


Not always. Or even most of the time.

Think about @MEM2020's model of desire and disgust. One key point is that the desire might be to provide sex to one's partner, and not a desire for the sex itself. Early in the relationship, your spouse might have a very high desire to deliver sex. They want you to like them. they want you to marry them. They want you to have kids with them. Lots of things they want that lead them to desire providing sex to you. Later, you marry them and you have kids with them. Not they already have the things that lead them to desire to provide sex to you. Over time they have a far lower level of desire to provide sex to you, since it "gets" them far less than it did during the early stages of the relationship. Now the level of desire to provide sex is significantly lower than their level of disgust. The disgust wins out. And they find it very difficult to provide any sex at all, much less frequent and enthusiastic sex.

As I said before, good luck trying to get a person in that situation to admit that is where they find themselves. They are hoping that you are like @In Absentia. Willing to ignore the truth right in front of your face as long as she does not say the words out loud. No disrespect to @In Absentia. I did the same thing for far too many years. But she knows there is a chance you will stay forever as long as she does not say the words out loud. Even though her behavior screams them to high heaven.



> When your wife makes comments about men being horn dogs, do you backpedal, or floor it?
> 
> Do you realize this is another **** test?


I don't think you have to grab or poke but the essence of the favorable response to "all men are horn dogs" is "well, I can't speak for all men, but I sure as heck am. And proud of it." Say the words. Cop a feel. Or not. But never allow her to cause you to feel shame because you desire her. You are supposed to desire her.


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## Holdingontoit

NobodySpecial said:


> Sigh. Ok. Good luck.


?????


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Holdingontoit said:


> I don't think you have to grab or poke but the essence of the favorable response to "all men are horn dogs" is "well, I can't speak for all men, but I sure as heck am. And proud of it." Say the words. Cop a feel. Or not. But never allow her to cause you to feel shame because you desire her. You are supposed to desire her.


Interestingly, one evening not long ago as we were lying in bed ready to go do sleep, I did just that. 

I reached over and began fondling her breast. I didn't ask if she was in the mood or anything, and I was fully prepared for her to remove my hand or simply tell me to knock it off. 

The funny thing is I wasn't specifically looking for sex at the moment. I just had this sudden, inexplicable desire to play with her boobs. It was kinda' strange, but I went with it. And since I wasn't specifically seeking sex, expecting it, or even really thinking about it, not having sex wasn't going to be a problem. I just wanted some boob fondling, and would enjoy it for as long as I was allowed. 

Next thing I know, she's pulling me over on top of her! To say I was surprised would be a huge understatement. Fortunately, I can still shift into that particular gear quickly.


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## Buddy400

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Interestingly, one evening not long ago as we were lying in bed ready to go do sleep, I did just that.
> 
> I reached over and began fondling her breast. I didn't ask if she was in the mood or anything, and I was fully prepared for her to remove my hand or simply tell me to knock it off.
> 
> The funny thing is I wasn't specifically looking for sex at the moment. I just had this sudden, inexplicable desire to play with her boobs. It was kinda' strange, but I went with it. And since I wasn't specifically seeking sex, expecting it, or even really thinking about it, not having sex wasn't going to be a problem. I just wanted some boob fondling, and would enjoy it for as long as I was allowed.
> 
> Next thing I know, she's pulling me over on top of her! To say I was surprised would be a huge understatement. Fortunately, I can still shift into that particular gear quickly.


The thing is, if you're a good guy, you think you should ask first, right? What if she doesn't want you too? What if she wasn't in the mood? You shouldn't just be thinking about yourself, right? A guy doing that might be thought to be just seeing the woman as a piece of meat that exists just for his pleasure.

Someone I trust said that a woman's desire is largely driven by her man's desire for her.

I never would have guessed that. I now intellectually know it to be (largely) true.

Emotionally, I still find myself fighting it.


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## john117

"I define marital dominance based on a single metric: how well are your overall needs met in the marriage"

Using what as a benchmark?

Those stuck in suboptimal marriages don't necessarily have a baseline of "overall needs" and that includes both spouses. They know what they're getting, but not what's possible.

Relationships don't stay assymetrical for long. Karma and all that. 

It's like a cat show. The cats aren't compared to each other but to the best of the breed. It's more like "I'm getting what I can, versus I'm getting everything I could be getting". This of course builds more resentment and there's no coming back after a while.

I'm looking at how DD's "fiance" treats her and remember how I treated her mom back then. Fast forward three decades and it's the difference between dollar store vs Nordstrom. Eventually one or both bail out.


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## 269370

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> No, I think she has tried to understand my feelings (which do match the male stereotype fairly well, so there's no disconnect there).
> 
> 
> 
> The reason I bring up her commitment tot he stereotypes is that I have tried to explain it to her, that just because she's naturally that way doesn't mean every woman's that way and she can't use that as an excuse. But she is that way, so maybe she can. I married her, not some hypothetical more naturally sexually active person.
> 
> 
> 
> In the sense that she's unwilling to believe not everybody matches her natural state, or that she actually does have the capacity to alter her state (to a degree), then you're right, she's not working as a team. That's a key source of frustration. (and speaks to @MEM2020 's definition of dominance).



Sorry I don’t mean to be insensitive (just trying to exclude all other possibilities), but is there any chance you are not as HD as perhaps you used to be when younger?

I sometimes have times when I am absolutely bursting that I don’t care if she is breathing or conscious: I know I am going to have a good time with her no matter what. And who knows, she might even enjoy it and catch my enthusiasm (which happens more, the more I enjoy myself). And I have no idea it’s because I’m enthusiastic for both of us or it’s because I imagine some kind of a feedback that may not be there in reality. But if it’s there in my mind then who cares? My perception is my reality after all.

Then, on the other hand, there are times where I’m more tired (rarely) and ‘kind of want it but can’t be bothered as much to put much effort and enthusiasm into it’ and begin to wonder ‘why isn’t she walking around half naked 24/7, why isn’t she lap dancing after dinner for me, why isn’t she cooking dinner while bent over the oven symmetrically, why isn’t her wrist action not a smooth and speedy as Lara, my personal sex robot  (that’s in the future)...

I’m exaggerating obviously but it seems more input is somehow expected from her (beyond breathing and just being her). 
I think our brains can be really good at tricking us like this and we always always always project, to some extent. 

I’m not saying it’s all down to you but it could be a combination of frustration re decreasing libido (yours and hers) over the years (which is normal) which could manifest itself in you being critical in he capabilities as a sexual partner. I mean has there ever been a time in the past when you had sex and it was good/satisfying?

You see where your story differs from most of the others, is that she seems (if I understood it correctly) willing to have sex with you. The talk is more about quality and enthusiasm. Those are difficult to quantify properly. But willingness is not to be underestimated...
This stuff can be in the eye of the beholder as well. 



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## 269370

farsidejunky said:


> Your response should be akin to, "All men are horndogs? No way!", as you reach up and gently squeeze her breast with your best chesire cat smile



Just don’t do it in front of your parents in law, as I did one too many times...

I worry the ‘schemer’ and ‘who is the dominant one’ line of thinking will perpetuate and crescendo into just more resentment...creating adversarial dynamic. 

I think a lot of people (men) vent here and since men are usually more into solutions/solving, they motivate others to take a more proactive stance. Which is fine but I do believe most LD partners just don’t really understand what it’s like to be a ‘horndog’ and are the way they are because of ignorance and not deliberate action (it would be deliberate if they themselves were HD and were deliberately withholding). You can’t really accuse a carnivore not liking grass of scheming. That wouldn’t make sense.



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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

inmyprime said:


> Sorry I don’t mean to be insensitive (just trying to exclude all other possibilities), but is there any chance you are not as HD as perhaps you used to be when younger?
> 
> I sometimes have times when I am absolutely bursting that I don’t care if she is breathing or conscious: I know I am going to have a good time with her no matter what. And who knows, she might even enjoy it and catch my enthusiasm (which happens more, the more I enjoy myself). And I have no idea it’s because I’m enthusiastic for both of us or it’s because I imagine some kind of a feedback that may not be there in reality. But if it’s there in my mind then who cares? My perception is my reality after all.
> 
> Then, on the other hand, there are times where I’m more tired (rarely) and ‘kind of want it but can’t be bothered as much to put much effort and enthusiasm into it’ and begin to wonder ‘why isn’t she walking around half naked 24/7, why isn’t she lap dancing after dinner for me, why isn’t she cooking dinner while bent over the oven symmetrically, why isn’t her wrist action not a smooth and speedy as Lara, my personal sex robot  (that’s in the future)...
> 
> I’m exaggerating obviously but it seems more input is somehow expected from her (beyond breathing and just being her).
> I think our brains can be really good at tricking us like this and we always always always project, to some extent.
> 
> I’m not saying it’s all down to you but it could be a combination of frustration re decreasing libido (yours and hers) over the years (which is normal) which could manifest itself in you being critical in he capabilities as a sexual partner. I mean has there ever been a time in the past when you had sex and it was good/satisfying?
> 
> You see where your story differs from most of the others, is that she seems (if I understood it correctly) willing to have sex with you. The talk is more about quality and enthusiasm. Those are difficult to quantify properly. But willingness is not to be underestimated...
> This stuff can be in the eye of the beholder as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No worries. I appreciate direct talk and don't generally perceive it as insensitive.

There is no doubt I'm not as HD as I was when I was younger. Actually, I really have no idea what my real level of desire is because it's been so long since it was put to the test.

And believe me, I do appreciate the willingness, especially of late. While I'm not fully able (or just not willing) to take advantage of that right now, it has gone a long way to keeping me from totally exploding emotionally. But it's a two edged sword as it also increases resentment when I think "Where was that willingness when you were physically able to act on it. You're at least a decade late on this."

To answer your other question, about "Was there ever a time...", all I can point to was when we first started, and that's just because it was all so new to me and I was jus naturally happy with whatever. But that even blew up when I faced the fact we had been married for years and she had never had an orgasm with me. I could even live with that, but her attitude that it either wasn't important, or at least not important enough to work on, was really hard to take. So while I thought that sex was good at the time, I came to think otherwise later on.


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## 269370

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Interestingly, one evening not long ago as we were lying in bed ready to go do sleep, I did just that.
> 
> 
> 
> I reached over and began fondling her breast. I didn't ask if she was in the mood or anything, and I was fully prepared for her to remove my hand or simply tell me to knock it off.
> 
> 
> 
> The funny thing is I wasn't specifically looking for sex at the moment. I just had this sudden, inexplicable desire to play with her boobs. It was kinda' strange, but I went with it. And since I wasn't specifically seeking sex, expecting it, or even really thinking about it, not having sex wasn't going to be a problem. I just wanted some boob fondling, and would enjoy it for as long as I was allowed.
> 
> 
> 
> Next thing I know, she's pulling me over on top of her! To say I was surprised would be a huge understatement. Fortunately, I can still shift into that particular gear quickly.




Dude, you got yourself one nympho of a wife 
(Self fulfilling prophecy: just keep telling yourself this )

It seems to me that she wants you to use her for your pleasure sometimes and what happens in that kind of dynamic often is that the guy is not so comfortable in that role and instead is frustrated with “but why can’t she desire me more to begin with?” . Her desire starts and ends with your desire: it’s an echo. If you don’t ‘shout’, it won’t resonate.
Majority of women seem like this (at least form this forum and what I see IRL).
They were also brought up ‘not making it too easy’ for men and like to be chased for love & romance (the ‘horndog’ comment). Problem is it gets tiring as the marriage continues (for the chaser).
Work with what you have. Make the best of it. And don’t forget to give it a good shaggin’, from time to time 


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## 269370

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> No worries. I appreciate direct talk and don't generally perceive it as insensitive.
> 
> 
> 
> There is no doubt I'm not as HD as I was when I was younger. Actually, I really have no idea what my real level of desire is because it's been so long since it was put to the test.
> 
> 
> 
> And believe me, I do appreciate the willingness, especially of late. While I'm not fully able (or just not willing) to take advantage of that right now, it has gone a long way to keeping me from totally exploding emotionally. But it's a two edged sword as it also increases resentment when I think "Where was that willingness when you were physically able to act on it. You're at least a decade late on this."


Yes but surely better late than never, no?
These things can take a while to realise. Also remember that this realisation also doesn’t happen on its own: you are partly responsible to voice and express your needs clearly.





Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> To answer your other question, about "Was there ever a time...", all I can point to was when we first started, and that's just because it was all so new to me and I was jus naturally happy with whatever. But that even blew up when I faced the fact we had been married for years and she had never had an orgasm with me. I could even live with that, but her attitude that it either wasn't important, or at least not important enough to work on, was really hard to take. So while I thought that sex was good at the time, I came to think otherwise later on.



Yes exactly! You were happy with ‘whatever’. At least you were able to have ‘whatever’; some don’t get even that. Sometimes it’s possible to make something out of ‘whatever’, even a little ‘sexy explosion’ might be possible, in the words of great misogynist philosopher Borat.

The orgasm thing...A lot of women have a hard time orgasming, no matter what you do. Trust me, she probably feels just as inadequate for not being able to give you this ‘on request’, as you feel frustrated, expecting it. It doesn’t mean she doesn’t enjoy the rest of it. Probably quite the opposite.

What screams through your posts: you want her to be somebody she is not. You can nudge her here and there, up to a point, and she can probably make a bit of effort here and there too, but unless you change your attitude towards your sex life (and towards your perception of her in general) and keep reminding yourself of all the positive things she is and means to you, you will just make yourself more miserable.



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## MEM2020

Yes to the variability. Non fiction anecdote below. 

Turns out that if you take a man and completely crash his testosterone levels - his entire viewpoint towards sex - broadens considerably. Perhaps I’ve mentioned this before but M2 is extraordinarily conscientious. Everything she possesses lasts forever because she adheres rigorously to optimum maintenance schedule - this includes regular sex with partner. 

Rules of engagement are symmetrical. Just as she can defer a day or two, I can defer a day or two. During brief (1-2 month) testosterone crash I learned what it’s like to not feel desire. At all. When this transpires, conflicting impulses collide head on:
- The desire to avoid having sex - and avoid is the correct wording 
And
- The desire to please your partner 
And
- The painful realization that they’ve done this for you countless times and you had NO CLUE how it felt
And
- The intense desire not to be a massive hypocrite 

Mostly - Pavlov rescues me. M2 is exceptionally good at this game so - I have a hugely positive reflex once we start based on approximately 4K delightful experiences. Still - it is no where near as good to start from zero and have sex. It averages a 6 and at best it is a 7. Where as when I start out pre heated - at WORST it’s a 9. And it averages a 9.5. 





Buddy400 said:


> Women's sexual desire is far more variable than men's. this is no doubt due to testosterone.
> 
> I know it's PC to say that men and women's sexual desire is the same, but it's not true and it's damaging to assume they are and apply to a woman's sexual desire the same causal factors that you would to a man.
> 
> NRE (New Relationship Energy), hormones, monthly cycles, pregnancy, breastfeeding, all can affect a woman's sexual desire.
> 
> Even with @MEM2020's "disgust" theory, the level of desire to overcome the disgust factor depends on the level of sexual desire that exists at the time the contact begins. Early in a relationship, the needed level of desire exists before the contact begins. After 20 years, kids, etc it's there's possibly not enough excitement at the start to even imagine trying to overcome it.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

inmyprime said:


> Yes but surely better late than never, no?
> These things can take a while to realise. Also remember that this realisation also doesn’t happen on its own: you are partly responsible to voice and express your needs clearly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes exactly! You were happy with ‘whatever’. At least you were able to have ‘whatever’; some don’t get even that. Sometimes it’s possible to make something out of ‘whatever’, even a little ‘sexy explosion’ might be possible, in the words of great misogynist philosopher Borat.
> 
> The orgasm thing...A lot of women have a hard time orgasming, no matter what you do. Trust me, she probably feels just as inadequate for not being able to give you this ‘on request’, as you feel frustrated, expecting it. It doesn’t mean she doesn’t enjoy the rest of it. Probably quite the opposite.
> 
> What screams through your posts: you want her to be somebody she is not. You can nudge her here and there, up to a point, and she can probably make a bit of effort here and there too, but unless you change your attitude towards your sex life (and towards your perception of her in general) and keep reminding yourself of all the positive things she is and means to you, you will just make yourself more miserable.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The "better late than never" rationale has rather limited applicability here. If it was just a case of lost time, that would be one thing, but when the realization doesn't come until the capability to act on it is lost, that changes everything. I could much more easily handle the former if it wasn't accompanied by the latter, making the realization largely irrelevant. Theres a big difference between being merely late and being _too_ late.

And I understand the orgasm difficulty thing... at least as much as a man with no such limitation can. I studied it. I tried to learn not only what I could do to help it, as well as what I could do to accep it. Let me repeat, my upset wasn't so much that it wasn't happening, but rather that she didn't think it was worth wanting to share with me. That and her unwillingness to try things other than PIV. We were married for 13 years before she was willing to allow manual stimulation (although she had taken care of herself in that regard). It was even longer before she'd acquiesce to oral. If orgasms lead to more desire and you aren't interested in having them with me, that says you aren't even interested in desiring me. Even the most unorgasmic women at least _want_ to have orgasms with their husbands. Many women who aren't having orgasms or enjoying sec complain that its because their husbands are lazy lovers. Here I was, willing to study, learn, adapt and do anything, and I get the one woman who doesn't care.

If wanting her to at least try rather than dismiss anything shes not already comfortable with or anything that doesn't perfectly match her very narrow preconceived notions equals "wanting her to be something shes not," then I'm guilty as charged. You have no idea all the ways I've adapted strictly for her benefit with no thought to benefit to me. It doesn't seem too much to ask her to be willing to adapt in a way th as t benefits her as well as me.

Trust me, focusing on all the other wonderful aspects of our relationship is how I've been able to hold it together for the last 25 years. But even that has a dark side. You spend your life looking at the world through rose colored glasses only to wake up one day a quarter century later, the bulk of your life behind you, only to find the world isn't so rosy after all and had you recognized this earlier, you may have been able to change course or at least go into your chosen course with eyes open.

Theres too possibilities here. Either she's deliberately stonewalling and taking advantage of me or shes genuinely limited. If the first case, I chose to devote my life to a selfish abuser. If the second case, I chose to devote my life to a bad mismatch. One may not be as bad as the other, but it's still problematic.


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## 269370

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> The "better late than never" rationale has rather limited applicability here. If it was just a case of lost time, that would be one thing, but when the realization doesn't come until the capability to act on it is lost, that changes everything. I could much more easily handle the former if it wasn't accompanied by the latter, making the realization largely irrelevant. Theres a big difference between being merely late and being _too_ late.
> 
> 
> 
> And I understand the orgasm difficulty thing... at least as much as a man with no such limitation can. I studied it. I tried to learn not only what I could do to help it, as well as what I could do to accep it. Let me repeat, my upset wasn't so much that it wasn't happening, but rather that she didn't think it was worth wanting to share with me. That and her unwillingness to try things other than PIV. We were married for 13 years before she was willing to allow manual stimulation (although she had taken care of herself in that regard). It was even longer before she'd acquiesce to oral. If orgasms lead to more desire and you aren't interested in having them with me, that says you aren't even interested in desiring me. Even the most unorgasmic women at least _want_ to have orgasms with their husbands. Many women who aren't having orgasms or enjoying sec complain that its because their husbands are lazy lovers. Here I was, willing to study, learn, adapt and do anything, and I get the one woman who doesn't care.
> 
> 
> 
> If wanting her to at least try rather than dismiss anything shes not already comfortable with or anything that doesn't perfectly match her very narrow preconceived notions equals "wanting her to be something shes not," then I'm guilty as charged. You have no idea all the ways I've adapted strictly for her benefit with no thought to benefit to me. It doesn't seem too much to ask her to be willing to adapt in a way th as t benefits her as well as me.
> 
> 
> 
> Trust me, focusing on all the other wonderful aspects of our relationship is how I've been able to hold it together for the last 25 years. But even that has a dark side. You spend your life looking at the world through rose colored glasses only to wake up one day a quarter century later, the bulk of your life behind you, only to find the world isn't so rosy after all and had you recognized this earlier, you may have been able to change course or at least go into your chosen course with eyes open.
> 
> 
> 
> Theres too possibilities here. Either she's deliberately stonewalling and taking advantage of me or shes genuinely limited. If the first case, I chose to devote my life to a selfish abuser. If the second case, I chose to devote my life to a bad mismatch. One may not be as bad as the other, but it's still problematic.




Nobody really knows what colour these glasses are supposed to be in reality...It could be rose all the way down.

Why is it ‘too late’ now? (Sorry I’m not so up to date with the situation). 

Her (lack of) orgasms: what did she specifically say for you to take away the message that she didn’t ‘want to share it with you’. Isn’t it more plausible that she was worried that she COULDN’T and was WORRIED that she couldn’t?

How and where do you ‘study orgasms’? Isn’t that an oxymoron as it’s a totally individual thing?

I realise you have tried everything with her...Have you tried you and changing your POV on the situation? (Stupid question but worth asking). You have a woman who you get along with in every aspect except some sexual incompatibilities. But if you ask her for sex, how many times will she reject you out of 10, on average?


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

inmyprime said:


> Nobody really knows what colour these glasses are supposed to be in reality...It could be rose all the way down.
> 
> Why is it ‘too late’ now? (Sorry I’m not so up to date with the situation).
> 
> Her (lack of) orgasms: what did she specifically say for you to take away the message that she didn’t ‘want to share it with you’. Isn’t it more plausible that she was worried that she COULDN’T and was WORRIED that she couldn’t?
> 
> How and where do you ‘study orgasms’? Isn’t that an oxymoron as it’s a totally individual thing?
> 
> I realise you have tried everything with her...Have you tried you and changing your POV on the situation? (Stupid question but worth asking). You have a woman who you get along with in every aspect except some sexual incompatibilities. But if you ask her for sex, how many times will she reject you out of 10, on average?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


1. She is having a very difficult menopause. This means her plumbing is out of sorts most of the time, and on the rare occasion she can have sex, she needs a lot of recovery time thereafter. So that newfound willingness is close to useless. 

2. That's possible. But why the hell not even try? If nothing comes of it, at least you learned something and had some fun along the way. I took the goal orientation out of it and said let's just enjoy some exploration, even if it may be a dead end. No dice.

3. I learned what I could via the means available. This was pre-internet. So I read a lot of books (from legitimate authors). I studied anatomy, psychology, female sexual response. I learned everything I could on my own. I wanted to learn more with her, but no dice.

4. I did change my POV recently, but in the opposite direction, which is why I'm angry now. But I do know that my current POV is more accurate. I'm not willing to go back to blissful ignorance. As I told someone else in an infidelity thread, I'd rather face an ugly truth than live a pretty lie.

5. It's not about how often I ask/receive, as I don't ask often knowing once a month is most likely and once a week will last two consecutive weeks at most at any given time. 

A big part of my current struggle (not my wife's fault) is learning that it didn't have to be this way. Much of was taught and led to believe that shaped my decisions in this area is flat out wrong. That angers me. That I bought into it angers me.l


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## 269370

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> 1. She is having a very difficult menopause. This means her plumbing is out of sorts most of the time, and on the rare occasion she can have sex, she needs a lot of recovery time thereafter. So that newfound willingness is close to useless.
> 
> 2. That's possible. But why the hell not even try? If nothing comes of it, at least you learned something and had some fun along the way. I took the goal orientation out of it and said let's just enjoy some exploration, even if it may be a dead end. No dice.
> 
> 3. I learned what I could via the means available. This was pre-internet. So I read a lot of books (from legitimate authors). I studied anatomy, psychology, female sexual response. I learned everything I could on my own. I wanted to learn more with her, but no dice.
> 
> 4. I did change my POV recently, but in the opposite direction, which is why I'm angry now. But I do know that my current POV is more accurate. I'm not willing to go back to blissful ignorance. As I told someone else in an infidelity thread, I'd rather face an ugly truth than live a pretty lie.
> 
> 5. It's not about how often I ask/receive, as I don't ask often knowing once a month is most likely and once a week will last two consecutive weeks at most at any given time.
> 
> A big part of my current struggle (not my wife's fault) is learning that it didn't have to be this way. Much of was taught and led to believe that shaped my decisions in this area is flat out wrong. That angers me. That I bought into it angers me.l




What’s wrong with pretty lies? They are only lies if you believe they are lies. You might be too hard on her. And yourself. She is going through menopause (which will pass) and you might be going through man-o-pause. Which may also pass. Don’t ruin the rest of your years together.


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## Handy

* MEM2020
Main thing being that I’m doing this with her, not to her. *

And the women I hear talking about sex in real life think it is somewhat the other way around. It is what the guy is taking from them or what the woman has to put up with.

* Rocky Mountain
but I have far too many examples outside of sex where she thought she was putting forth great effort and I can't even begin to believe she was. She's never been one to stretch herself, or exert herself more than necessary, in any of life's endeavors. So naturally, I think she's doing the same thing with regard to sex.*

RMY, my W is the same way. Almost everything has to be easy or she won't do it. If she thinks something is easy but discovers it is difficult, she quits, even things she likes.

* RMY My W Desire for stability. Risk avoidance. Maximum comfort and minimum drama, but with minimum effort. Certainty of return on investment but with minimal acceptable risk. Freedom to live her life without any kind of pressure.*

Same here.

Also my W said for her to have an O it was too much work. Just F her and make it quick. Menopause? Yes it was rough for my W and got to be so problematic, I just couldn't make it worse for her. When she moved to the spare bedroom a long time ago, I just quit trying to have sex with her. This could be your life in a few years.

* Holdingontoit
Early in the relationship, your spouse might have a very high desire to deliver sex. They want you to like them. they want you to marry them. They want you to have kids with them. Lots of things they want that lead them to desire providing sex to you. Later, you marry them and you have kids with them. Not they already have the things that lead them to desire to provide sex to you. Over time they have a far lower level of desire to provide sex to you, since it "gets" them far less than it did during the early stages of the relationship. Now the level of desire to provide sex is significantly lower than their level of disgust. The disgust wins out. And they find it very difficult to provide any sex at all, much less frequent and enthusiastic sex.*

That sounds familiar. BTDT For a while I was OK with my W providing "gift sex" but that dried up too.

Some women on TAM say they like sex. I wish I heard that IRL.


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## MEM2020

John,
I will use tonight as an example of - how - everyone has their own sense of how to gauge their own marital satisfaction, their partners marital satisfaction and the way they score effort vs actual results. 

1. I bantered with M2 and she said something that gave me an extended full body laugh. 
2. She clearly radiated a ‘not interested in sex’ vibe, but happily gave me a 15 minute back scratch.

I’m not smart enough to score this stuff. I can only say that overall she is kind, considerate and seems to want a mutually beneficial and happy union. 

And while it’s true that I’d be happy for her to have a higher sex drive, it’s also true that I’m grateful she doesn’t pretend/fake her way thru our sex life. 




john117 said:


> "I define marital dominance based on a single metric: how well are your overall needs met in the marriage"
> 
> Using what as a benchmark?
> 
> Those stuck in suboptimal marriages don't necessarily have a baseline of "overall needs" and that includes both spouses. They know what they're getting, but not what's possible.
> 
> Relationships don't stay assymetrical for long. Karma and all that.
> 
> It's like a cat show. The cats aren't compared to each other but to the best of the breed. It's more like "I'm getting what I can, versus I'm getting everything I could be getting". This of course builds more resentment and there's no coming back after a while.
> 
> I'm looking at how DD's "fiance" treats her and remember how I treated her mom back then. Fast forward three decades and it's the difference between dollar store vs Nordstrom. Eventually one or both bail out.


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## MEM2020

Rocky,

The post below is a great example of why I’ve stayed on TAM all these years. If M2 had pretended with me from the start, I wouldn’t have known. From the get go she said when she did and didn’t and I simply accepted her statements as fact.

It would have gutted me to find out years and children into the marriage that she’d been pretending. Not saying I would have left her, just that it would have shredded me.





Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> No worries. I appreciate direct talk and don't generally perceive it as insensitive.
> 
> There is no doubt I'm not as HD as I was when I was younger. Actually, I really have no idea what my real level of desire is because it's been so long since it was put to the test.
> 
> And believe me, I do appreciate the willingness, especially of late. While I'm not fully able (or just not willing) to take advantage of that right now, it has gone a long way to keeping me from totally exploding emotionally. But it's a two edged sword as it also increases resentment when I think "Where was that willingness when you were physically able to act on it. You're at least a decade late on this."
> 
> To answer your other question, about "Was there ever a time...", all I can point to was when we first started, and that's just because it was all so new to me and I was jus naturally happy with whatever. But that even blew up when I faced the fact we had been married for years and she had never had an orgasm with me. I could even live with that, but her attitude that it either wasn't important, or at least not important enough to work on, was really hard to take. So while I thought that sex was good at the time, I came to think otherwise later on.


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## MEM2020

On a lighter - though loosely related note - we were talking about my job tonight. I work with a fellow named Grayson who M2 dislikes and distrusts. Up til now I have chosen to see the good in him and mostly ignore the not so good. But I reached a turning point this week. So tonight:

MEM: My days of giving him the benefit of the doubt are in the rear view mirror.
M2: I am really glad to hear that.
MEM: That doesnt mean you expect me to stop sleeping with him?
M2: Not if it gets me off the hook a few nights a week.
Cue: full body laugh 

M2 is a jealous, fiercely monogamous partner with a great sense of humor. 

And fwiw - there was basically zero lag between my comment and her reply. Having a fully real time humor factory is a priceless thing. 






MEM2020 said:


> Rocky,
> 
> The post below is a great example of why I’ve stayed on TAM all these years. If M2 had pretended with me from the start, I wouldn’t have known. From the get go she said when she did and didn’t and I simply accepted her statements as fact.
> 
> It would have gutted me to find out years and children into the marriage that she’d been pretending. Not saying I would have left her, just that it would have shredded me.


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## john117

People are receptive - or not - to humor. I could make a good living as a comedian but that particular skill was generally lost on Dr J2. Dd1 is about as funny or emphatic as her mom, or Mitch McConnell  and never had to worry about relationships. Dd2 is as funny as I am, emphatic more than me, and her dating experiences are about as good as my cat's. Ie not a whole lot. 

Not everything aligns with our own experiences.


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## PigglyWiggly

..........


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

PigglyWiggly said:


> RMY, talk your balls out of her purse and reclaim your sexual autonomy.
> 
> Do you hide your masturbation from her? I would guess that you do. When you find yourselves alone with all the conditions met where a good romp could be possible (time/energy), announce that you are going to the bedroom to take a shower and have some sex and that you need 30 minutes of privacy and then DO IT. Lock the door, turn up some music, grab the laptop and go have a good wank. When you are done, do not be ashamed or embarrassed but enjoy the power you now feel of not having your pleasure held hostage by a lazy and selfish lover. Come out of that bedroom with a smile and some pep in your step. Now, go for a bike ride or something else that you like that makes you feel good. Do not let her guilt you or shame you. You have needs and wants that she has no interest in fulfilling so you have relieved her of that "burden".
> 
> If you do this a few times, it won't be long before she follows you to the bedroom or you become so empowered by reclaiming your sexual autonomy that you won't allow her to continue her behavior without consequences.
> 
> You have a ZR1 Corvette (sexual pleasure) in the garage that you paid for, wash and polish, check the tire pressures, change the oil and then you let her hold the keys and not only tell you when you can drive it but how you can drive it. Your wife doesn't think she likes speed and sportscars so take the keys and burn the tires off as you leave the driveway and go for a ride. Come home with a grin on your face. It won't be long before she wants to go for a ride because your attitude afterwards makes it seems like it must be a lot of fun and that she is missing out. You've now created desire. Dom her a little and enjoy your new sex life.
> 
> Turn your current anger into orgasms and action!
> 
> The first time I did this to my wife, afterwards, she asked, "did you think about me?" I responded with, "lol noooooooooo. I like sex that is enthusiastic and has passion. She wasn't nearly as attractive as you but her enthusiasm and passion for her partner made her so hot."
> 
> The second and LAST time I did this she stopped me before I made it upstairs and said she wanted to go with me. It took my friend 4x before his wife followed him.
> 
> Modify as you need to but you HAVE to take this power back from her or your anger and resentment will turn into disgust. What do you have to lose other than blue balls?


Actually, I've hidden nothing from her. She knew full well that I took care of myself whenever I wanted to. Shes not keen, but she knows that was the price of her inaction. 

That has, however, stopped. As far as she knows I'm still doing it regularly, but I'm not due to my own mental state. I was okay with it when i thought it was part of a well rounded sec life. But purely as a substitute? Just can't do it when ever stroke is a reminder you're only doing it because youre not getting the real thing. Total buzzkill.

Interestingly, one night, she caught me doing it in bed right next to her. Thought she was asleep, but at the time really didn't give a damn if she woke. She did. I might have stopped, but was too far in to quit, so I pressed on and damm the consequences! She had an initial reaction of disgust and then mellowed and said "I wont distract you" and rolled over facing away. She did say later, with no disgust she was taken aback at how "big and rigid that thing looked" almost as if she was intrigued or even turned on. 

But any later attempts to capitalize on that were met with cold indifference. This seems to be a pattern. That she occasionally approaches the door but is afraid to walk through. Like the time I was able to coach her through oral to completion. After which she looked up at me and said "so you liked that, eh?" with a very distinct gleam in her eye reminiscent of when she would tease or seduce me decades ago. But the next time? Zero enthusiasm, got tired quick, etc
Game over.


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## In Absentia

My wife is happy I masturbate... so I don't bother her... or should I say _was_ happy, since I'm not allowed to bother her any more... :smile2: in fact, every time she needed to talk to me in my office, she knocked on the door... she still does, mind you... :laugh:


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## PigglyWiggly

......


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## personofinterest

> but I have far too many examples outside of sex where she thought she was putting forth great effort and I can't even begin to believe she was. She's never been one to stretch herself, or exert herself more than necessary, in any of life's endeavors. So naturally, I think she's doing the same thing with regard to sex.


This caught my attention because I think it is a common issue in areas other than sex as well.

I'll give an example: My ex was in church work when we got engaged and married. His method of finding a job in this vocation was to pray and wait for God to give him one. Well, I mean, he put in a resume if asked. Yes, I scratched my head too.

Now, once he changed careers and lost a job, he thought he was making great effort by putting in applications when he searched and found an opening that perfectly fit everything he wanted and everything THEY wanted and that he thought he could get. In 14 months of unemployment he probably sent out....a dozen? applications? Compared to his first career and his typical passive personality, he really thought this was GREAT effort. On the other hand, when I had a period of unemployment, I sent out 20 resumes and applications a week as a LOW number. If I thought I could LEARN what was in the description, I applied. 

I heard a psychologist call it a blind spot. When we have a weak area or we have an area that really isn't important to us, we see ANY effort in that area as great effort. While other people, who are either stronger in that area or deem it more important do not see much effort at all. We tend to NOT see the gaps in our weak areas.

So a person with very low or no drive is going to think, "Hey, I gave him/her sex twice this month! That's way more than two years ago! I rock!" While the person with the high drive is still running into walls and chanting to calm themselves from sexual frustration lol.

If a person cannot look past their own blind spots, they don't grow.


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## CharlieParker

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> But any later attempts to capitalize on that were met with cold indifference.


Ouch. That would be a dealbreaker for me. I mean how much time and effort, physically and mentally, is required to occasionally provide some eye candy. 

YW(ife)MV


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## farsidejunky

personofinterest said:


> This caught my attention because I think it is a common issue in areas other than sex as well.
> 
> I'll give an example: My ex was in church work when we got engaged and married. His method of finding a job in this vocation was to pray and wait for God to give him one. Well, I mean, he put in a resume if asked. Yes, I scratched my head too.
> 
> Now, once he changed careers and lost a job, he thought he was making great effort by putting in applications when he searched and found an opening that perfectly fit everything he wanted and everything THEY wanted and that he thought he could get. In 14 months of unemployment he probably sent out....a dozen? applications? Compared to his first career and his typical passive personality, he really thought this was GREAT effort. On the other hand, when I had a period of unemployment, I sent out 20 resumes and applications a week as a LOW number. If I thought I could LEARN what was in the description, I applied.
> 
> I heard a psychologist call it a blind spot. When we have a weak area or we have an area that really isn't important to us, we see ANY effort in that area as great effort. While other people, who are either stronger in that area or deem it more important do not see much effort at all. We tend to NOT see the gaps in our weak areas.
> 
> So a person with very low or no drive is going to think, "Hey, I gave him/her sex twice this month! That's way more than two years ago! I rock!" While the person with the high drive is still running into walls and chanting to calm themselves from sexual frustration lol.
> 
> If a person cannot look past their own blind spots, they don't grow.


People prioritize the things they want.

They ignore the things they don't want, or fear.

When one truly accepts that premise, decisions become much more clear. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## 269370

PigglyWiggly said:


> RMY, take your balls out of her purse and reclaim your sexual autonomy.
> 
> Do you hide your masturbation from her? I would guess that you do. When you find yourselves alone with all the conditions met where a good romp could be possible (time/energy), announce that you are going to the bedroom to take a shower and have some sex and that you need 30 minutes of privacy and then DO IT. Lock the door, turn up some music, grab the laptop and go have a good wank. When you are done, do not be ashamed or embarrassed but enjoy the power you now feel of not having your pleasure held hostage by a lazy and selfish lover. Come out of that bedroom with a smile and some pep in your step. Now, go for a bike ride or something else that you like that makes you feel good. Do not let her guilt you or shame you. You have needs and wants that she has no interest in fulfilling so you have relieved her of that "burden".
> 
> If you do this a few times, it won't be long before she follows you to the bedroom or you become so empowered by reclaiming your sexual autonomy that you won't allow her to continue her behavior without consequences.
> 
> You have a ZR1 Corvette (sexual pleasure) in the garage that you paid for, wash and polish, check the tire pressures, change the oil and then you let her hold the keys and not only tell you when you can drive it but how you can drive it. Your wife doesn't think she likes speed and sportscars so take the keys and burn the tires off as you leave the driveway and go for a ride. Come home with a grin on your face. It won't be long before she wants to go for a ride because your attitude afterwards makes it seems like it must be a lot of fun and that she is missing out. You've now created desire. Dom her a little and enjoy your new sex life.
> 
> Turn your current anger into orgasms and action!
> 
> The first time I did this to my wife, afterwards, she asked, "did you think about me?" I responded with, "lol noooooooooo. I like sex that is enthusiastic and has passion. She wasn't nearly as attractive as you but her enthusiasm and passion for her partner made her so hot."
> 
> The second and LAST time I did this she stopped me before I made it upstairs and said she wanted to go with me. It took my friend 4x before his wife followed him.
> 
> Modify as you need to but you HAVE to take this power back from her or your anger and resentment will turn into disgust. What do you have to lose other than blue balls?




Really? Masturbating with a laptop in a bathroom while the wife is outside watching tv is empowering? 🤨🤨


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## PigglyWiggly

.....


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## SadSamIAm

PigglyWiggly said:


> bedroom.....and yes. When she controls your sexual pleasure, masturbation is almost like pity sex and she knows she can take that away from you at any time by offering you sex. . When you are loud and proud about your masturbation and set out to do it just for the sake of pleasure, you take that power from her. She can become a participator in your sexual pleasure but now she has to have permission to get into the game. Maybe it won't work for you. Maybe I am wrong.


I am pretty sure my wife wouldn't like me masturbating openly. It would cause her to be less attracted to me, not more. She would participate in sex with me less, not more.


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## PigglyWiggly

......


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## 269370

PigglyWiggly said:


> RMY's wife is showing no sexual attraction to him. Maybe this won't work for you. There is no one cure for every situation like this except for divorce and he isn't going to do that.
> 
> 
> 
> What would you suggest he do?




Me personally, if I was him?

I would keep having sex with her. Was that a trick question? 


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## PigglyWiggly

.........


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

@SadSamIAm

Why do you think you mast openly would make you less attractive to her?


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## 269370

PigglyWiggly said:


> Your solution is what got him here and has failed to satisfy.




Yep. No argument there from me.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

PigglyWiggly said:


> Quit doing it because you don't get the real thing and do it loudly and proudly because it feels good. You aren't going in there to have substitute PiV but because masturbation feels really good. You've given her all the access she wants/needs. Take that away, not to punish her but take it to enjoy for yourself since she isn't going to do anything with it. You seemed determined to stay with her so learn to REALLY enjoy yourself....LOUDLY AND PROUDLY. You might not get much but you've got to work on creating desire. That comes from having limited access to things that make you feel good. Your anger will subside and she will push that door open a little more when there is no pressure on her AT ALL. Don't pout or sulk but enjoy that big and rigid thing and let her know you enjoyed it by the smile on your face and the pep in your step but do this alone and not while she is in the bed next to you. Cut off her access to lazy and selfish sex. She will eventually want some of it. You want that sex where she DESIRES it, not just to appease you.
> 
> Get a prostate massager if you don't have one. An orgasm after that will leave you well satisfied and spent. You will not care that she wasn't in the mood. You've got to remove your pressure on her and your negativity related to masturbation. Make the sex you do get (masturbation) a glorious thing!


Still not gonna' address the core issue for me. The physical release, no matter how physically satisfying, is very much secondary to, and in no way a substitute for the togetherness part.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

PigglyWiggly said:


> RMY's wife is showing no sexual attraction to him. Maybe this won't work for you. There is no one cure for every situation like this except for divorce and he isn't going to do that.
> 
> What would you suggest he do?


I think you've missed a few posts. She shows great attraction ... just rather infrequently, and shes easily satisfied with the basics when she does.


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## PigglyWiggly

....


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

PigglyWiggly said:


> I read every post. There's a reason SHE isn't here looking to get what she wants/needs.
> 
> Good luck.


Yep. Shes got everything she ever wanted in life and more. And as long as I'm available to give her her monthly fix between the sheets, it's all good.


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## Luminous

Unless I have missed something, it almost sounds like it is time for an ultimatum-type discussion. Tell her (yes TELL) that if this does not change (and change from here onwards), and she doesn't put her head out of her behind, then you will prioritise other things in your life that have nothing to do with her.

The trick for you, is to find WHAT those things are. And then the harder part is to follow through with it, and make it your new norm.

You are in a crappy spot at the moment, but, like mountain biking, sometimes you have to work your arse off and endure some pain before you get to enjoy the fun aspects of a course.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Luminous said:


> Unless I have missed something, it almost sounds like it is time for an ultimatum-type discussion. Tell her (yes TELL) that if this does not change (and change from here onwards), and she doesn't put her head out of her behind, then you will prioritise other things in your life that have nothing to do with her.
> 
> The trick for you, is to find WHAT those things are. And then the harder part is to follow through with it, and make it your new norm.
> 
> You are in a crappy spot at the moment, but, like mountain biking, sometimes you have to work your arse off and endure some pain before you get to enjoy the fun aspects of a course.


P/A
(Previously Accomplished)

She is well a was are that I am focusing on things that give me pleasure commensurate with the effort I put in. I'm beyond my previous fear that that may have a corrosive effect on the marriage.


----------



## minimalME

SadSamIAm said:


> I am pretty sure my wife wouldn't like me masturbating openly. It would cause her to be less attracted to me, not more. She would participate in sex with me less, not more.


I wouldn't mind the masturbating openly - I'd probably ask to watch. 

But if this was done to punish me in some way, you're right, it would cause me to be less attracted, not more. The whole attitude surrounding what PW described would be a total turn off to me.

But then again, I'd hope I'd not find myself in this posiiton. 

I think of myself as being more like MEM's wife. I like getting things out in the open and working through them. If I knew that improving a behavior would add to my husband's well being (being reasonable and all that - nothing wildly outrageous), I'd do it. 'No' wouldn't be an option. I'd find a way to compromise.


----------



## Luminous

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> P/A
> (Previously Accomplished)
> 
> She is well a was are that I am focusing on things that give me pleasure commensurate with the effort I put in. I'm beyond my previous fear that that may have a corrosive effect on the marriage.


You say you accomplished it previously, does that mean that it is no longer the case? 

Going off what you have said over the thread, whilst your missus may be great in other areas, it seems like her selfishness is more important than upholding the marriage vows taken all those years ago.


----------



## BluesPower

I was not going to post to this thread anymore for a lot of reasons. But since it has kind of gone off the rails, I guess what the hell.

All of you guys going back and forth about your sexless or near sexless marriages, I guess I don't get it. 

Now, I am not married anymore, I have NEVER been in a sexless marriage, or a sexless relationship, ever. 

So maybe I am not qualified to comment, who knows. 

Now, maybe if my most recent ex had actually not wanted to have sex with me, it would have saved me years of misery, but even she is not that stupid. It did not matter in the long run but that and other things kept me there way way longer than I should have stayed. Only if we could go back in time. 

Now, why have I never been in this situation before? I am a high drive guy, so why have I never had this issue. 

Well for one thing, when dating if the sex was not good, bong you are out, next. You are not a sexually open women, bong, your out. 

And, all of this talk of getting sex, and giving sex, and pity sex, and duty sex, just makes me want to puke. I don't stay with women that are not attracted to me, for one. I am open and honest about everything including sex. I have always kind of laid that out, up front. If I am with a woman that does not want to have sex that night, "Oh, are you feeling ok", "What can I do to help you feel better" "Or maybe we should just cuddle", or what ever. But the next night, if that happened, then we need to have a talk about what is up.

So in general, you don't stay with women that don't want to have sex. You don't stay with a woman that is not attracted to you. 

I am a good looking guy, but not Brad Pitt. I am a super nice guy, but never a push over. I don't have a huge Johnson, but I guess it is big enough. 

So why is my experience so different than some other people's? I don't know for sure. 

But is will say this, I have never stayed with a woman that was not attracted to me, or that was not into sex, or did not want to have sex. 

Is that it, maybe, but who really knows.


----------



## CharlieParker

minimalME said:


> But if this was done to punish me in some way,


Not punish, but my wife at times needs reassurance that I’m not guilting her about not enough sex or into more sex. She is always welcome to join me (from the beginning, don’t walk in please) but I’ll let her know if she is not required, optional or definitely getting naked (it’s not as cold as that but I couldn’t write any better).


----------



## PigglyWiggly

.........


----------



## minimalME

PigglyWiggly said:


> What would you suggest he do if he is not going to leave her?


I don't know - I have no suggestions. 

But I was in a sexless marriage, so I understand the frustration.


----------



## Luminous

Just a thought experiment RMY but, have you ever done mountain biking with some women?

Perhaps giving that a go and then (quietly) if the missus asks you, tell her how you had so much fun with these people (be sure to include that they were women, just don't broadcast it as she might see through what you are trying to achieve).

Some might see this as silly, but the point I am making is that if RMY is keen on staying the course in this, he needs to discover what her primal triggers are. Some people won't budge until there is competition (the ol' 'jealous is a *****').


----------



## Luminous

Rocky, if you need an insight into what I am talking about, your own 'social media' thread should give you some good nuggets of information... From yourself, let alone others


----------



## Wolf1974

BluesPower said:


> I was not going to post to this thread anymore for a lot of reasons. But since it has kind of gone off the rails, I guess what the hell.
> 
> All of you guys going back and forth about your sexless or near sexless marriages, I guess I don't get it.
> 
> Now, I am not married anymore, I have NEVER been in a sexless marriage, or a sexless relationship, ever.
> 
> So maybe I am not qualified to comment, who knows.
> 
> Now, maybe if my most recent ex had actually not wanted to have sex with me, it would have saved me years of misery, but even she is not that stupid. It did not matter in the long run but that and other things kept me there way way longer than I should have stayed. Only if we could go back in time.
> 
> Now, why have I never been in this situation before? I am a high drive guy, so why have I never had this issue.
> 
> Well for one thing, when dating if the sex was not good, bong you are out, next. You are not a sexually open women, bong, your out.
> 
> And, all of this talk of getting sex, and giving sex, and pity sex, and duty sex, just makes me want to puke. I don't stay with women that are not attracted to me, for one. I am open and honest about everything including sex. I have always kind of laid that out, up front. If I am with a woman that does not want to have sex that night, "Oh, are you feeling ok", "What can I do to help you feel better" "Or maybe we should just cuddle", or what ever. But the next night, if that happened, then we need to have a talk about what is up.
> 
> So in general, you don't stay with women that don't want to have sex. You don't stay with a woman that is not attracted to you.
> 
> I am a good looking guy, but not Brad Pitt. I am a super nice guy, but never a push over. I don't have a huge Johnson, but I guess it is big enough.
> 
> So why is my experience so different than some other people's?* I don't know for sure*.
> 
> But is will say this, I have never stayed with a woman that was not attracted to me, or that was not into sex, or did not want to have sex.
> 
> Is that it, maybe, but who really knows.


i do and so do You. You pointed it out in this response which is you wouldn’t tolerate a sexless relationship. Neither would I. That’s the very reason we havent experienced it. I make it clear in every relationship I have had sex is non negotiable. It’s not to be used as a weapon or a bargaining tool. Sure I have had a woman or two try to push me on these and they Are now just part of my past. If sex is of high priority to you don’t live sexless. Those who live sexless are understandingly upset but other things are more important or they wouldn’t stay.


----------



## Wolf1974

PigglyWiggly said:


> and that's the difference between you and RMY's wife. I wouldn't suggest the same advice for you. She has all the control and he has pity wanks.
> 
> What would you suggest he do if he is *not going to leave her*?


you can’t do anything if this is the case and known by both parties. You can’t neotiate from a position of zero power in my opinion.


----------



## BluesPower

Wolf1974 said:


> i do and so do You. You pointed it out in this response which is you wouldn’t tolerate a sexless relationship. Neither would I. That’s the very reason we havent experienced it. I make it clear in every relationship I have had sex is non negotiable. It’s not to be used as a weapon or a bargaining tool. Sure I have had a woman or two try to push me on these and they Are now just part of my past. If sex is of high priority to you don’t live sexless. Those who live sexless are understandingly upset but other things are more important or they wouldn’t stay.


Yes I guess you are right. But I still don't understand why any man, or woman, would stay in a sexless or low sex situation. I really don't, I'm not trying to be dense. 

I guess they think the marriage, and money is worth more that a happy life. 

You see for me, it is not just about sex, it is about a loving ROMANTIC relationship. If I am in love with a woman, I want to have sex with her, duh, because I am in love with her. I want to feel her close, I want to cuddle her, I want to do for her and with her, AND I want to have sex with her. 

I want her to want me, make me feel desired like I make her feel. If you do not have this, then you are roommates.

If I am living with a roommate, the roommate pays half, I don't do things for her, and I get to bring women that want to have sex with me to my house and bang them in my bed. 

Am I out of line to think this way????


----------



## Buddy400

BluesPower said:


> Yes I guess you are right. But I still don't understand why any man, or woman, would stay in a sexless or low sex situation. I really don't, I'm not trying to be dense.
> 
> I guess they think the marriage, and money is worth more that a happy life.
> 
> You see for me, it is not just about sex, it is about a loving ROMANTIC relationship. If I am in love with a woman, I want to have sex with her, duh, because I am in love with her. I want to feel her close, I want to cuddle her, I want to do for her and with her, AND I want to have sex with her.
> 
> I want her to want me, make me feel desired like I make her feel. If you do not have this, then you are roommates.
> 
> If I am living with a roommate, the roommate pays half, I don't do things for her, and I get to bring women that want to have sex with me to my house and bang them in my bed.
> 
> Am I out of line to think this way????


The problem is kids.

Why anyone would stay in a sexless relationship without kids (LTR or married) is beyond me.

Women going from high (or normal desire) for the first year; lower desire once the NRE wears off; lower desire after kids (especially when breastfeeding) is a pretty frequent occurrence no matter how attracted to her guy she is. Getting divorced every time this happens would leave a string of baby momma's behind. That's not going to work. (I think guys with low desire mostly just start out and stay that way).

The mistake men make is not making very clear to their spouse how important sex is the first time it starts dropping below the level they can accept. 

I mean, who's going to believe that sex is really, really important to someone who's been doing without it for a decade or more?

And I think, if wives truly believed this, they'd put more effort into making it work where possible. But most women are led to believe that not having much sex once you're married is normal and guys complaining about it is normal, so it's not really a problem.


----------



## Luminous

Buddy400 said:


> The problem is kids.
> 
> Why anyone would stay in a sexless relationship without kids (LTR or married) is beyond me.
> 
> Women going from high (or normal desire) for the first year; lower desire once the NRE wears off; lower desire after kids (especially when breastfeeding) is a pretty frequent occurrence no matter how attracted to her guy she is. Getting divorced every time this happens would leave a string of baby momma's behind. That's not going to work. (I think guys with low desire mostly just start out and stay that way).
> 
> The mistake men make is not making very clear to their spouse how important sex is the first time it starts dropping below the level they can accept.
> 
> I mean, who's going to believe that sex is really, really important to someone who's been doing without it for a decade or more?
> 
> And I think, if wives truly believed this, they'd put more effort into making it work where possible. But most women are led to believe that not having much sex once you're married is normal and guys complaining about it is normal, so it's not really a problem.


I would be curious on the response of these people who are depriving their partners if one were to say: "You like regular fidelity? You value regular fidelity? Then in turn you should value regular sex to reinforce that fidelity"


----------



## 269370

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I think you've missed a few posts. She shows great attraction ... just rather infrequently, and shes easily satisfied with the basics when she does.




And what happens if you turn her around, give her a little spanking before you enter that way?
If she questions you, just say you slip and fell or something...always works for me...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Buddy400

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I think you've missed a few posts. She shows great attraction ... just rather infrequently, and shes easily satisfied with the basics when she does.


Yours is an example of a marriage where the woman is very happy with you as a husband.

The dynamic is that you are concerned about her happiness and she is concerned with her happiness.

She's never felt the need to make you happy because you've never needed her to do so. You've probably been uncomfortable asking her to do things for you. Asking for things from others makes you vulnerable (If you don't ask, they can't say no). Focusing on the happiness of others makes you happy (because it helps you feel good about yourself and it's important that you feel good about yourself). She cares about your happiness; but not enough to actually do anything about it. To some degree, you can't blame her, you've trained her that way.

You expect that your wife's sexual desire works just like yours; if she is attracted to you sexually, she'd want to have sex with you; she'd initiate. She should want to have sex with you for *her* sake. You think she should have spontaneous desire for sex. You're very uncomfortable with the idea of her having sex *for* you. If she knows that having sex with you makes you happy, she can make you unhappy by not having it. That's a ***** in your armor. If she has sex with you because *she* desires it, you're safe. 

But, if her desire is triggered by your desire for her and you don't initiate often because it seems as if she's not in the mood; then she isn't going to *feel* your desire and respond to it. Since you don't ask her to do things for you, you don't give her the opportunity to make you happy. She's gotten used to thinking that she's not capable of making you happy, she's not able to make you happy or she's just gotten used to not thinking about your happiness. 

If she truly loves you as much as she says she does, and she knows how important this is to you, how can she not do anything about it? The only answers that makes sense are that either she doesn't actually love you that much, she isn't attracted to you or she just dislikes sex. Of those choices, you'd prefer the latter.

I propose that the answer is that she (like 75% of women) has responsive desire. I suspect that she feels like a failure for not having the spontaneous desire which would make you happy (and isn't aware of responsive desire and how it works). She truly doesn't believe that it's *that* important to you. She can take comfort in the belief that all men complain about sex but it's really not that important.

If so, your marriage seems similar to mine and @EllisRedding's. 

I suggest you try the following:

"Since the kids have left, I get the feeling that you're looking for a more emotionally intimate relationship with me. I, and most men, feel the most emotionally close to their wives when they have sex. Unfortunately, I am now feeling distant from you at the same time that you seem to want to be closer. That sucks and I'm not sure what can be done about it".

If you can figure out how to leave sex out of it completely, that would be even better.

Ellis's wife finally got the message when she asked why he didn't even try to hug her anymore and he replied "because I no longer feel close to you". That was it. Apparently the word "sex" caused her to file a comment in the "I can ignore this" category but "no longer feeling close to her" rang the bell.

She gave you oral sex to completion, smiled and said "so you enjoyed that, heh?" She had no moral objections, she didn't gag and barf. When she didn't do it again with the same enthusiasm, maybe it's because the level of pleasure you displayed wasn't enough to make her feel that her efforts were worth it. 

Or, she just isn't that committed to your happiness. If that's the case, it's time for you to be less committed to hers.


----------



## 269370

BluesPower said:


> Yes I guess you are right. But I still don't understand why any man, or woman, would stay in a sexless or low sex situation. I really don't, I'm not trying to be dense.
> 
> 
> 
> I guess they think the marriage, and money is worth more that a happy life.
> 
> 
> 
> You see for me, it is not just about sex, it is about a loving ROMANTIC relationship. If I am in love with a woman, I want to have sex with her, duh, because I am in love with her. I want to feel her close, I want to cuddle her, I want to do for her and with her, AND I want to have sex with her.
> 
> 
> 
> I want her to want me, make me feel desired like I make her feel. If you do not have this, then you are roommates.
> 
> 
> 
> If I am living with a roommate, the roommate pays half, I don't do things for her, and I get to bring women that want to have sex with me to my house and bang them in my bed.
> 
> 
> 
> Am I out of line to think this way????




Maybe if you are with the same person for 20+ years; and they still want to bang you, maybe then do you get to brag about it 

It’s very easy to get girlfriends who want to bang you but a different story to have the same Long term partner wanting to bang you after many years of living together. At least it seems that way. And sex is not the only thing that keeps people together. Although it is a big part of it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BluesPower

Buddy400 said:


> The problem is kids.
> 
> Why anyone would stay in a sexless relationship without kids (LTR or married) is beyond me.
> 
> Women going from high (or normal desire) for the first year; lower desire once the NRE wears off; lower desire after kids (especially when breastfeeding) is a pretty frequent occurrence no matter how attracted to her guy she is. Getting divorced every time this happens would leave a string of baby momma's behind. That's not going to work. (I think guys with low desire mostly just start out and stay that way).
> 
> The mistake men make is not making very clear to their spouse how important sex is the first time it starts dropping below the level they can accept.
> 
> I mean, who's going to believe that sex is really, really important to someone who's been doing without it for a decade or more?
> 
> And I think, if wives truly believed this, they'd put more effort into making it work where possible. But most women are led to believe that not having much sex once you're married is normal and guys complaining about it is normal, so it's not really a problem.


I agree with some of this. But one problem is I'm not a kid (50's). And my ex never really slowed down with me until I just hated her, by that time I was already done. 

And another thing with that one was (Ex) she never slowed down not even when she was pregnant. When she was prego, I literally thought that she would F me to death. I was always HD and I guess she was too. 

I think men for sure put up with this so it happens. But there are lots of women out there that like sex as much as most men do. 

I think a lot of it is people stay in marriages where the love has really died, and no one wants to admit it.


----------



## Buddy400

BluesPower said:


> I think men for sure put up with this so it happens. But there are lots of women out there that like sex as much as most men do.


The rough estimate is that 75% of men and 25% of women have spontaneous desire.

So, yes, I agree that there are lots of women who spontaneously want sex as much as most men do.

There are even more women with responsive desire who, once they've been aroused, like sex as much as most men do.

And then, of course, there are men who aren't "most" men.


----------



## Buddy400

BluesPower said:


> I think a lot of it is people stay in marriages where the love has really died


I think in a lot of marriages the love has died because nobody paid any attention to keeping it alive,


----------



## PigglyWiggly

.......


----------



## PigglyWiggly

...........


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Luminous said:


> You say you accomplished it previously, does that mean that it is no longer the case?
> 
> Going off what you have said over the thread, whilst your missus may be great in other areas, it seems like her selfishness is more important than upholding the marriage vows taken all those years ago.


Still the case. I have not been inspired to return her to the center of my universe.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Buddy400 said:


> Yours is an example of a marriage where the woman is very happy with you as a husband.
> 
> The dynamic is that you are concerned about her happiness and she is concerned with her happiness.
> 
> She seems much more concerned with my happiness these days. The thing is she's always felt like she's doing everything she can. She just doesn't know how much she can stretch herself. Recall also her keeping a diary for a period so she could track and make sure we were having sex once a week.
> That exhibited a great deal of concern for me. What got to me was that she said it too a great deal of effort to do so.
> 
> She's never felt the need to make you happy because you've never needed her to do so. You've probably been uncomfortable asking her to do things for you. Asking for things from others makes you vulnerable (If you don't ask, they can't say no). Focusing on the happiness of others makes you happy (because it helps you feel good about yourself and it's important that you feel good about yourself). She cares about your happiness; but not enough to actually do anything about it. To some degree, you can't blame her, you've trained her that way.
> 
> Reasonably accurate.
> 
> You expect that your wife's sexual desire works just like yours; if she is attracted to you sexually, she'd want to have sex with you; she'd initiate. She should want to have sex with you for *her* sake. You think she should have spontaneous desire for sex. You're very uncomfortable with the idea of her having sex *for* you. If she knows that having sex with you makes you happy, she can make you unhappy by not having it. That's a ***** in your armor. If she has sex with you because *she* desires it, you're safe.
> 
> I think we've covered this ground before. If not with you, with someone else, in which case I apologize for thinking it was you. _I've never thought her desire should work like mine. _ Only that it should at least work. I'm open to adapting to however it would work for her if there was just some indication of what, if anything, would work.
> 
> But, if her desire is triggered by your desire for her and you don't initiate often because it seems as if she's not in the mood; then she isn't going to *feel* your desire and respond to it. Since you don't ask her to do things for you, you don't give her the opportunity to make you happy. She's gotten used to thinking that she's not capable of making you happy, she's not able to make you happy or she's just gotten used to not thinking about your happiness.
> She's huge on doing other things for me. She really busts her hump in all other areas. This is a relatively new phenomenon. I'm sure it's driven by a combination of her realizing it was unfair for me to have carried so much of the load through our lives to this point, and her trying to compensate for the restrictions menopause is currently putting on her.
> 
> I didn't used to ask for things. I have been much more willing and able to ask in the last year. Problem is, response to requests is usually lukewarm at best.
> 
> If she truly loves you as much as she says she does, and she knows how important this is to you, how can she not do anything about it? The only answers that makes sense are that either she doesn't actually love you that much, she isn't attracted to you or she just dislikes sex. Of those choices, you'd prefer the latter.
> 4th option. That she is legitimately limited. Or a modification of the third option, that she likes sex, but only infrequently. I'm sure it's a combination of 3A and 4. In any case, I don't have a preference as you assert; I just would like to know definitively one way or the other, so I could best know how to respond.
> 
> I propose that the answer is that she (like 75% of women) has responsive desire. I suspect that she feels like a failure for not having the spontaneous desire which would make you happy (and isn't aware of responsive desire and how it works). She truly doesn't believe that it's *that* important to you. She can take comfort in the belief that all men complain about sex but it's really not that important.
> This is something else I think we've already covered. I'm not buying the absolute distinction between responsive desire and spontaneous desire. Both (or neither) can exist in the same person and it can change from time to time. There are times there's nothing I can do to excite her (so not responsive) but there are times there's nothing I can do to stop her (very spontaneous; not only spontaneous, but unstoppable), but those times are infrequent.
> 
> If so, your marriage seems similar to mine and @EllisRedding's.
> 
> I suggest you try the following:
> 
> "Since the kids have left, I get the feeling that you're looking for a more emotionally intimate relationship with me. I, and most men, feel the most emotionally close to their wives when they have sex. Unfortunately, I am now feeling distant from you at the same time that you seem to want to be closer. That sucks and I'm not sure what can be done about it".
> Previously accomplished. In almost those exact same words. She was moved. She has since been very aggressive about doing everything she can to feel better so she can be more physically involved.
> 
> If you can figure out how to leave sex out of it completely, that would be even better.
> That's how the first such discussion went. She was overwhelmed.
> 
> Ellis's wife finally got the message when she asked why he didn't even try to hug her anymore and he replied "because I no longer feel close to you". That was it. Apparently the word "sex" caused her to file a comment in the "I can ignore this" category but "no longer feeling close to her" rang the bell.
> Have expressed that sentiment as well.
> 
> She gave you oral sex to completion, smiled and said "so you enjoyed that, heh?" She had no moral objections, she didn't gag and barf. When she didn't do it again with the same enthusiasm, maybe it's because the level of pleasure you displayed wasn't enough to make her feel that her efforts were worth it.
> Not the case.
> 
> Or, she just isn't that committed to your happiness. If that's the case, it's time for you to be less committed to hers.
> I don't know 100% that that's the case. But I have crossed that threshold anyway.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Luminous said:


> Just a thought experiment RMY but, have you ever done mountain biking with some women?
> 
> Perhaps giving that a go and then (quietly) if the missus asks you, tell her how you had so much fun with these people (be sure to include that they were women, just don't broadcast it as she might see through what you are trying to achieve).
> 
> Some might see this as silly, but the point I am making is that if RMY is keen on staying the course in this, he needs to discover what her primal triggers are. Some people won't budge until there is competition (the ol' 'jealous is a *****').


Had a woman join my group ride a few times. Also, when my son was on the high school mountain bike teams, all the parents would get to pre ride the course with the kids the evening before the race, and some of the other kids' moms would join. 

Wife wasn't keen in either case. 

I like the idea of finding primal triggers. This just isn't a particularly primal woman. Very measured, she is.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Wolf1974 said:


> you can’t do anything if this is the case and known by both parties. You can’t neotiate from a position of zero power in my opinion.


All that power negotiation and making ultimatums, and demanding what you want is all well and good, and may get you sex in the end...
... but it can't get you true intimacy. Acquiescing under coercive measures isn't the type of response I expect.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

PigglyWiggly said:


> I THINK he gave HER oral to completion but I can't find the post where he discussed that now.
> 
> 
> She seems to mention things should be "natural". You know what isn't natural.....monogamy. Natural would be for RMY to inseminate every woman he could to spread his seed and to kick her to the curb. She doesn't really want natural, it's just her excuse to be a lazy and selfish lover.


Buddy's recollection is accurate.

Although both have happened. I believe I have posted regarding both.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

PigglyWiggly said:


> RMY's wife has to be willing to see if she can be turned on. She isn't willing to do this. She has responsive desire but only thinks sex should be on the table when her desire is spontaneous it would seem. He will have to overcome his fear of losing that once a month sex to move forward.


That fear, as mentioned earlier, is quite gone. I'm done doing for and expecting nothing in return. Once a month or once a year is irrelevant; neither is gonna' get it done, so I have forsaken all motivation to try to preserve the status quo.


----------



## CharlieParker

Wolf1974 said:


> It’s not to be used as a weapon or a bargaining tool.


Yes, and it’s like oxygen, she imformeded early on. Still good advice.


----------



## Buddy400

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> That fear, as mentioned earlier, is quite gone. I'm done doing for and expecting nothing in return. Once a month or once a year is irrelevant; neither is gonna' get it done, so I have forsaken all motivation to try to preserve the status quo.


You may be right and we've done this before. In that case, I'll give it a rest.

Sounds like you've done all you can.

I've never gotten the understanding from you that you're done "doing for"...... Surely, that's gotten a reaction?? 

.... what am I thinking? 

Probably not.

Best of luck


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Buddy400 said:


> You may be right and we've done this before. In that case, I'll give it a rest.
> 
> Sounds like you've done all you can.
> 
> I've never gotten the understanding from you that you're done "doing for"...... Surely, that's gotten a reaction??
> 
> .... what am I thinking?
> 
> Probably not.
> 
> Best of luck


I may not have actually posted that before. In any case, she was pretty stunned when she heard it.


----------



## Buddy400

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I may not have actually posted that before. In any case, she was pretty stunned when she heard it.


Has she seen it happen?


----------



## MEM2020

Minimal,
Thing is - she’s an excellent wife overall. And my firm belief is that is a 50/50 thing. Half aptitude and half attitude. She WANTS to be a good wife. 

And she’d say the same about me. 

People often say that love is a verb - a thing you create by action. I believe love is something you amplify by action - you have to start out feeling some to have something to amplify. 

Thing is - being lovable is also a verb - it is also a choice. Probably the best thing M2 has taught me - how to be lovable.




minimalME said:


> I wouldn't mind the masturbating openly - I'd probably ask to watch.
> 
> But if this was done to punish me in some way, you're right, it would cause me to be less attracted, not more. The whole attitude surrounding what PW described would be a total turn off to me.
> 
> But then again, I'd hope I'd not find myself in this posiiton.
> 
> I think of myself as being more like MEM's wife. I like getting things out in the open and working through them. If I knew that improving a behavior would add to my husband's well being (being reasonable and all that - nothing wildly outrageous), I'd do it. 'No' wouldn't be an option. I'd find a way to compromise.


----------



## MEM2020

Exact same reaction she had to the cousin.

Very primal response on her part. Primal and normal. 

She loves you and wants to stay married. But she is lazy, not such a good thing in a partner. 






Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Had a woman join my group ride a few times. Also, when my son was on the high school mountain bike teams, all the parents would get to pre ride the course with the kids the evening before the race, and some of the other kids' moms would join.
> 
> Wife wasn't keen in either case.
> 
> I like the idea of finding primal triggers. This just isn't a particularly primal woman. Very measured, she is.


----------



## john117

Its easy to attribute a behavior and blame said behavior for the issue. People are lazy when it comes to yardwork or scrubbing the pots. Meeting your partner's needs, not to mention your own, is a bit more intricate.


----------



## EllisRedding

Buddy400 said:


> Yours is an example of a marriage where the woman is very happy with you as a husband.
> 
> The dynamic is that you are concerned about her happiness and she is concerned with her happiness.
> 
> She's never felt the need to make you happy because you've never needed her to do so. You've probably been uncomfortable asking her to do things for you. Asking for things from others makes you vulnerable (If you don't ask, they can't say no). Focusing on the happiness of others makes you happy (because it helps you feel good about yourself and it's important that you feel good about yourself). She cares about your happiness; but not enough to actually do anything about it. To some degree, you can't blame her, you've trained her that way.
> 
> You expect that your wife's sexual desire works just like yours; if she is attracted to you sexually, she'd want to have sex with you; she'd initiate. She should want to have sex with you for *her* sake. You think she should have spontaneous desire for sex. You're very uncomfortable with the idea of her having sex *for* you. If she knows that having sex with you makes you happy, she can make you unhappy by not having it. That's a ***** in your armor. If she has sex with you because *she* desires it, you're safe.
> 
> But, if her desire is triggered by your desire for her and you don't initiate often because it seems as if she's not in the mood; then she isn't going to *feel* your desire and respond to it. Since you don't ask her to do things for you, you don't give her the opportunity to make you happy. She's gotten used to thinking that she's not capable of making you happy, she's not able to make you happy or she's just gotten used to not thinking about your happiness.
> 
> If she truly loves you as much as she says she does, and she knows how important this is to you, how can she not do anything about it? The only answers that makes sense are that either she doesn't actually love you that much, she isn't attracted to you or she just dislikes sex. Of those choices, you'd prefer the latter.
> 
> I propose that the answer is that she (like 75% of women) has responsive desire. I suspect that she feels like a failure for not having the spontaneous desire which would make you happy (and isn't aware of responsive desire and how it works). She truly doesn't believe that it's *that* important to you. She can take comfort in the belief that all men complain about sex but it's really not that important.
> 
> If so, your marriage seems similar to mine and @EllisRedding's.
> 
> I suggest you try the following:
> 
> "Since the kids have left, I get the feeling that you're looking for a more emotionally intimate relationship with me. I, and most men, feel the most emotionally close to their wives when they have sex. Unfortunately, I am now feeling distant from you at the same time that you seem to want to be closer. That sucks and I'm not sure what can be done about it".
> 
> If you can figure out how to leave sex out of it completely, that would be even better.
> 
> Ellis's wife finally got the message when she asked why he didn't even try to hug her anymore and he replied "because I no longer feel close to you". That was it. Apparently the word "sex" caused her to file a comment in the "I can ignore this" category but "no longer feeling close to her" rang the bell.
> 
> She gave you oral sex to completion, smiled and said "so you enjoyed that, heh?" She had no moral objections, she didn't gag and barf. When she didn't do it again with the same enthusiasm, maybe it's because the level of pleasure you displayed wasn't enough to make her feel that her efforts were worth it.
> 
> Or, she just isn't that committed to your happiness. If that's the case, it's time for you to be less committed to hers.


Was going to post here but @Buddy400 pretty much said what I would have said as well


----------



## minimalME

Buddy400 said:


> I suggest you try the following:
> 
> "Since the kids have left, I get the feeling that you're looking for a more emotionally intimate relationship with me. I, and most men, feel the most emotionally close to their wives when they have sex. Unfortunately, I am now feeling distant from you at the same time that you seem to want to be closer. That sucks and I'm not sure what can be done about it".
> 
> If you can figure out how to leave sex out of it completely, that would be even better.
> 
> Ellis's wife finally got the message when she asked why he didn't even try to hug her anymore and he replied "because I no longer feel close to you". That was it. Apparently the word "sex" caused her to file a comment in the "I can ignore this" category but "no longer feeling close to her" rang the bell.


Whoa. That's good.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Buddy400 said:


> Has she seen it happen?


Yes.


----------



## Wolf1974

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> All that power negotiation and making ultimatums, and demanding what you want is all well and good, and may get you sex in the end...
> ... but it can't get you true intimacy. Acquiescing under coercive measures isn't the type of response I expect.


I don’t see it as coercive at all. I know what I want in life and sexless just isn’t in line with that. So to me that’s an off the table issue . I also don’t want to have sex with someone who doesn’t want it. But what I have learned through experience is one person who doesn’t want to has 100 more than does. I just stick to those who do. Just my choice


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Wolf1974 said:


> I don’t see it as coercive at all. I know what I want in life and sexless just isn’t in line with that. So to me that’s an off the table issue . I also don’t want to have sex with someone who doesn’t want it. But what I have learned through experience is one person who doesn’t want to has 100 more than does. I just stick to those who do. Just my choice


Whether or not you intend to coerce is not the issue. If they start exhibiting the behavior you seek, are they doing it out of fear or love. That's the crux.


----------



## PigglyWiggly

.................


----------



## BluesPower

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Whether or not you intend to coerce is not the issue. If they start exhibiting the behavior you seek, are they doing it out of fear or love. That's the crux.


While it may be splitting hairs, just like others have said...

Every women that I have dated I have been completely up front by saying, "Sex and affection are super important to me. I am a high drive guy, and that is just me." 

And frankly, it does not bother me if my GF, knowing my past, is just a little bit on edge in a positive way. She knows what I expect in a R and if that is not happening then no relationship. 

I am in a R with her because I want it all or I would not be in a R. I can get just sex anywhere, just like she can. So if we are not in love, well, let me know an I am gone...


----------



## BluesPower

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Whether or not you intend to coerce is not the issue. If they start exhibiting the behavior you seek, are they doing it out of fear or love. That's the crux.


While it may be splitting hairs, just like others have said...

Every women that I have dated I have been completely up front by saying, "Sex and affection are super important to me. I am a high drive guy, and that is just me." 

And frankly, it does not bother me if my GF, knowing my past, is just a little bit on edge in a positive way. She knows what I expect in a R and if that is not happening then no relationship. 

I am in a R with her because I want it all or I would not be in a R. I can get just sex anywhere, just like she can. So if we are not in love, well, let me know and I am gone...


----------



## Personal

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> You have no idea all the ways I've adapted strictly for her benefit with no thought to benefit to me.


That right there, is how one creates a limited sex or sexless marriage.



> It’s very easy to get girlfriends who want to bang you but a different story to have the same Long term partner wanting to bang you after many years of living together. At least it seems that way. And sex is not the only thing that keeps people together. Although it is a big part of it.


Twenty two plus years so far, with just shy of twenty two years living together, with nineteen plus years being married and she (who is 48) still wants to bang me a lot (this is no accident).

Sex is often exciting.

Earlier this evening before I had to go out with only a few minutes available while chatting in my small office. I shut the door, lifted my wife's top, removed her bra to expose her breasts, played with them a little. Then told her to take her pants off. I then undid my fly and while she was sitting on my chair I put myself inside her.

With absolutely no consideration for her, getting much out of it I made sure I orgasmed quickly. Then lifted her off my chair and stood her up so she wouldn't mess my chair. I then got ready to leave. While she used her knickers to clean up the mess.

The position was not ideal for either of us, yet it was sufficient for me to choose to let go quickly.

I didn't ask her, I told her what to do, I didn't accommodate her, I didn't worry about her pleasure, I used her for my pleasure. I also didn't thank her, or offer her a rain check for her pleasure, just as I didn't care that she didn't orgasm.

Just afterwards, she told me how exciting it was, how it was so unexpected and how desired she felt, how it felt good for her, how she enjoyed me having my way with her.



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Next thing I know, she's pulling me over on top of her! To say I was surprised would be a huge understatement.


No plans, no trying to convince her. Just desire, generating desire.



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> The thing is, she honestly believes she's worked very hard at it. She's forever caught up in the old stereotype that men are all insatiable horndogs who'll never be happy, no matter how much you do it, and women are all driven by a need for romance and stability and are perfectly satisfied with sex once a cycle.
> 
> So when she was making sure we were doing it once a week, that seemed like great effort of her part.


You would do well to agree with her, why fight what she believes when you can show her how right she is.

The old "you only what to use me for sex", question should always be followed with "yes!" In other words she is saying men desire women insatiably and she is asking if you desire her insatiably.



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> 1. She is having a very difficult menopause. This means her plumbing is out of sorts most of the time, and on the rare occasion she can have sex, she needs a lot of recovery time thereafter. So that newfound willingness is close to useless.


There's other ways, with other things that you can do and try. Take oral sex, sure you "coached" her at one point. Yet there's nothing stopping you from telling her to "put it in her mouth", and telling her she's "now going to get plenty of practice".



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> 2. That's possible. But why the hell not even try? If nothing comes of it, at least you learned something and had some fun along the way. I took the goal orientation out of it and said let's just enjoy some exploration, even if it may be a dead end. No dice.


Learning something along the way, is another expression of goal oriented tasking. Sexual desire is raw and emotional. It is not a test of objectives.

Your approach reminds me of checking off grouping and tasks with an orders pro forma, when preparing detailed orders.



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> 5. It's not about how often I ask/receive, as I don't ask often knowing once a month is most likely and once a week will last two consecutive weeks at most at any given time.


If I stop initiating by telling my wife or more frequently just starting on her (I certainly don't ask, since she says no when she doesn't want to). If I stop looking my wife in the eyes and kissing her, if I stop fondling her, if I stop telling my wife how I am going to have her. I have no doubt I would quickly experience the malaise of once a month as well.



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> A big part of my current struggle (not my wife's fault) is learning that it didn't have to be this way. Much of was taught and led to believe that shaped my decisions in this area is flat out wrong. That angers me. That I bought into it angers me.l


You not only bought it, you brought it.

Tilting at windmills, isn't going to change the past.

I really don't think it's too late for the both of you together at all. She has shown you she still could and still would. It is now up to you to express desire through action, if you want that from her.

I don't think you need to play masturbation games, withdraw yourself or undertake any other games. What I do think you should do is stop worrying about her, stop your inertia for fear of not pleasing her and step up and start having your way with her much more frequently.


----------



## BluesPower

Personal said:


> That right there, is how one creates a limited sex or sexless marriage.
> 
> Twenty two plus years so far, with just shy of twenty two years living together, with nineteen plus years being married and she (who is 48) still wants to bang me a lot (this is no accident).
> 
> Sex is often exciting.
> 
> Earlier this evening before I had to go out with only a few minutes available while chatting in my small office. I shut the door, lifted my wife's top, removed her bra to expose her breasts, played with them a little. Then told her to take her pants off. I then undid my fly and while she was sitting on my chair I put myself inside her.
> 
> With absolutely no consideration for her, getting much out of it I made sure I orgasmed quickly. Then lifted her off my chair and stood her up so she wouldn't mess my chair. I then got ready to leave. While she used her knickers to clean up the mess.
> 
> The position was not ideal for either of us, yet it was sufficient for me to choose to let go quickly.
> 
> I didn't ask her, I told her what to do, I didn't accommodate her, I didn't worry about her pleasure, I used her for my pleasure. I also didn't thank her, or offer her a rain check for her pleasure, just as I didn't care that she didn't orgasm.
> 
> Just afterwards, she told me how exciting it was, how it was so unexpected and how desired she felt, how it felt good for her, how she enjoyed me having my way with her.
> 
> No plans, no trying to convince her. Just desire, generating desire.
> 
> You would do well to agree with her, why fight what she believes when you can show her how right she is.
> 
> The old "you only what to use me for sex", question should always be followed with "yes!" In other words she is saying men desire women insatiably and she is asking if you desire her insatiably.
> 
> There's other ways, with other things that you can do and try. Take oral sex, sure you "coached" her at one point. Yet there's nothing stopping you from telling her to "put it in her mouth", and telling her she's "now going to get plenty of practice".
> 
> Learning something along the way, is another expression of goal oriented tasking. Sexual desire is raw and emotional. It is not a test of objectives.
> 
> Your approach reminds me of checking off grouping and tasks with an orders pro forma, when preparing detailed orders.
> 
> If I stop initiating by telling my wife or more frequently just starting on her (I certainly don't ask, since she says no when she doesn't want to). If I stop looking my wife in the eyes and kissing her, if I stop fondling her, if I stop telling my wife how I am going to have her. I have no doubt I would quickly experience the malaise of once a month as well.
> 
> You not only bought it, you brought it.
> 
> Tilting at windmills, isn't going to change the past.
> 
> I really don't think it's too late for the both of you together at all. She has shown you she still could and still would. It is now up to you to express desire through action, if you want that from her.
> 
> I don't think you need to play masturbation games, withdraw yourself or undertake any other games. What I do think you should do is stop worrying about her, stop your inertia for fear of not pleasing her and step up and start having your way with her much more frequently.


THIS is what I am talking about. With one caveat, I do always make sure she I happy, but it takes a long time for me to get there so that just kind of happens. 

Here is a story somewhat like that. GF and I were about to get busy, getting ready. For some reason she has to get something in the closet. I don't know what she said, or why she was going in there but I was ready... and since we were both naked, I just followed her into the closet, and bent her over the dresser. 

Not sure why I did that, but I just did. She came unglued with pleasure, and several different positions later we finished. 

She literally talked about it for 3 days. I have no idea why I did that, I just wanted her that second, and it really did not matter where it was, I was going to happen...


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

BluesPower said:


> While it may be splitting hairs, just like others have said...
> 
> Every women that I have dated I have been completely up front by saying, "Sex and affection are super important to me. I am a high drive guy, and that is just me."
> 
> And frankly, it does not bother me if my GF, knowing my past, is just a little bit on edge in a positive way. She knows what I expect in a R and if that is not happening then no relationship.
> 
> I am in a R with her because I want it all or I would not be in a R. I can get just sex anywhere, just like she can. So if we are not in love, well, let me know an I am gone...


That makes sense if you started off like that. 

I got married young and inexperienced, in full starry eyed belief that love conquers all. Chucking a relationship is easy if you know yourself well enough to know what you want up front. It's a little different multiple kids and decades of history in.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Personal said:


> That right there, is how one creates a limited sex or sexless marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> Twenty two plus years so far, with just shy of twenty two years living together, with nineteen plus years being married and she (who is 48) still wants to bang me a lot (this is no accident).
> 
> Yep. You've got the right formula right there... _for your wife_. Every woman is different and not every woman will react to your approach the way your wife has.
> 
> Sex is often exciting.
> 
> Earlier this evening before I had to go out with only a few minutes available while chatting in my small office. I shut the door, lifted my wife's top, removed her bra to expose her breasts, played with them a little. Then told her to take her pants off. I then undid my fly and while she was sitting on my chair I put myself inside her.
> 
> With absolutely no consideration for her, getting much out of it I made sure I orgasmed quickly. Then lifted her off my chair and stood her up so she wouldn't mess my chair. I then got ready to leave. While she used her knickers to clean up the mess.
> 
> The position was not ideal for either of us, yet it was sufficient for me to choose to let go quickly.
> 
> I didn't ask her, I told her what to do, I didn't accommodate her, I didn't worry about her pleasure, I used her for my pleasure. I also didn't thank her, or offer her a rain check for her pleasure, just as I didn't care that she didn't orgasm.
> 
> Just afterwards, she told me how exciting it was, how it was so unexpected and how desired she felt, how it felt good for her, how she enjoyed me having my way with her.
> 
> No plans, no trying to convince her. Just desire, generating desire.
> 
> 
> 
> You would do well to agree with her, why fight what she believes when you can show her how right she is.
> 
> The old "you only what to use me for sex", question should always be followed with "yes!" In other words she is saying men desire women insatiably and she is asking if you desire her insatiably.
> 
> Well, the key word there is "only." You're quite right I do want her for sex, and she knows that as well. But not _only _sex. No matter how much your macho ego thinks that a cool thing to say, it's not for us. Never has been. Never will be.
> 
> 
> There's other ways, with other things that you can do and try. Take oral sex, sure you "coached" her at one point. Yet there's nothing stopping you from telling her to "put it in her mouth", and telling her she's "now going to get plenty of practice".
> 
> Oh, yes, there is something very wrong with that in our case. Again, good for you that you've identified that as a positive dynamic in your relationship. It's not universal.
> 
> 
> Learning something along the way, is another expression of goal oriented tasking. Sexual desire is raw and emotional. It is not a test of objectives.
> 
> Your approach reminds me of checking off grouping and tasks with an orders pro forma, when preparing detailed orders.
> 
> Hardly. Even if we're talking "raw and emotional," finding out what trips that raw, emotional switch is important. Even if you find out a long list of things that don't trip that switch, you know more than you did before. But the key here is not even what you do or don't learn. My point was that we could enjoy the naked time together, even without "goals."
> 
> 
> 
> If I stop initiating by telling my wife or more frequently just starting on her (I certainly don't ask, since she says no when she doesn't want to). If I stop looking my wife in the eyes and kissing her, if I stop fondling her, if I stop telling my wife how I am going to have her. I have no doubt I would quickly experience the malaise of once a month as well.
> 
> You've confused cause and effect here. The lack of initiation didn't bring about low frequency, rather the lack of frequency over years of frequent and passionate initiation ultimately led to the lack of initiation. Of all the places you're experience is not applicable to my situation, this one is foremost. Our frequency has actually increased since I've stopped coming at her with all my desire and passion.
> 
> You not only bought it, you brought it.
> 
> Tilting at windmills, isn't going to change the past.
> And trying to "take what I want" would be exactly that in our case: tilting at windmills.
> 
> I really don't think it's too late for the both of you together at all. She has shown you she still could and still would. It is now up to you to express desire through action, if you want that from her.
> 
> I don't think you need to play masturbation games, Never have or even considered it withdraw yourself or undertake any other games. My withdrawal was not a game. It was a genuine, and very necessary, step toward self preservation. I never intended it as a "game" or any other ulterior motive driven action. What I do think you should do is stop worrying about her, stop your inertia for fear of not pleasing her and step up and start having your way with her much more frequently. You talk of inertia. Inertia is not changing course. I have changed course multiple times. And, as previously noted multiple times, I am at this point free of fear.
> It drives none of my decisions or actions. And even "having my way with her" reauires her to be receptive as well as physically capable. I am not a rapist.


----------



## BluesPower

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> That makes sense if you started off like that.
> 
> I got married young and inexperienced, in full starry eyed belief that love conquers all. Chucking a relationship is easy if you know yourself well enough to know what you want up front. It's a little different multiple kids and decades of history in.


Granted, renegotiate...

And just an aside, I chunked a 26 year marriage, and it was the best thing I have ever done for myself, and that was not a sexless marriage, there were other reasons. So I know how hard it could be, for me it was easy. 

Renegotiate or get out. I could not live the way that you are living. Just saying...


----------



## Wolf1974

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Whether or not you intend to coerce is not the issue. If they start exhibiting the behavior you seek, are they doing it out of fear or love. That's the crux.


You still miss the point. You can’t manipulate people long term. They eventually will just stop caring. By making what I need and want known the message about what I need is clear. Just like anything in a relationship. I’m not coercing I am avoiding it by seeking women who are like minded,sex positives, and don’t see sex as a weapon or tool. Like I said they can lie in the short term but long term they are either like minded on sex or it falls apart.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Wolf1974 said:


> You still miss the point. You can’t manipulate people long term. They eventually will just stop caring. By making what I need and want known the message about what I need is clear. Just like anything in a relationship. I’m not coercing I am avoiding it by seeking women who are like minded,sex positives, and don’t see sex as a weapon or tool. Like I said they can lie in the short term but long term they are either like minded on sex or it falls apart.


Again, you are seeking. I'm 31 years married. 

And women can, and do, fake it until the ring is on, so theres still no guarantee (although that's not what happened in my case).


----------



## azimuth

RMY I don't know if you realize that you discount and try to prove wrong every single piece of advice. You're always right. In the words of Dr. Phil, how's that working out for you? You don't have to utilize the entire bit of Personal's post, but did you at least see anything that might help? Any approach? Or all of it wrong. I'm a woman and I actually thought his office chair story was hot. A woman likes it when the man is so turned on he has to have her right then. And I wouldn't say "do me on the chair before you leave." I just wouldn't, and maybe you want your wife to do that, but some women just aren't wired that way. Just because they don't initiate an equal number of times as their partner doesn't mean they wouldn't be receptive to a quicky or something like that office chair story. She can always say no if she doesn't want to. If you don't show her desire then she won't think she's desirable and then she certainly won't initiate. imo


----------



## Wolf1974

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Again, you are seeking. I'm 31 years married.
> 
> And women can, and do, fake it until the ring is on, so theres still no *guarantee* (although that's not what happened in my case).


No you can’t ever control another person. You can only control you and what you are willing to tolerate. You have said you have a great wife. By your definition she must do some incredible things that make you feel that way. You just wish you had more sex as I understand it.

For ME a women who doesn’t want sex couldn’t be a great wife as way to much of my relationship satisfaction is tied into love making. So we just see things different and prioritize things different If sex was more of a priority to you then you wouldn’t stay. You found a balance that works for and that’s great. I would say many in marriage don’t.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Wolf1974 said:


> No you can’t ever control another person. You can only control you and what you are willing to tolerate. You have said you have a great wife. By your definition she must do some incredible things that make you feel that way. You just wish you had more sex as I understand it.
> 
> For ME a women who doesn’t want sex couldn’t be a great wife as way to much of my relationship satisfaction is tied into love making. So we just see things different and prioritize things different If sex was more of a priority to you then you wouldn’t stay. You found a balance that works for and that’s great. I would say many in marriage don’t.


Actually, if she flat out didn't want sex, that would make it easy. She does... just not often, and not with much variety. Maybe I shouldn't have posted in a thread entitled "Sexless marriage...." Our marriage is not, by either literal or clinical definition, sexless. There's just a big mismatch.


----------



## BluesPower

Wolf1974 said:


> No you can’t ever control another person. You can only control you and what you are willing to tolerate. You have said you have a great wife. By your definition she must do some incredible things that make you feel that way. You just wish you had more sex as I understand it.
> 
> For ME a women who doesn’t want sex couldn’t be a great wife as way to much of my relationship satisfaction is tied into love making. So we just see things different and prioritize things different If sex was more of a priority to you then you wouldn’t stay. You found a balance that works for and that’s great. I would say many in marriage don’t.


Yes, amen and yes again... And not to pile on but try to listen. 

Wife/GF whatever, if she does not want to have sex, that is ABSOLUTLY NOT the definition of a good wife or IMHO the definitions of romantic love. 

I am not sure why some people don't understand this? 

And I am not saying that I am right and I will not listen to other opinions, I just have not heard anyone say anything that has convince me that I am wrong.

I am fairly enlightened, I am willing to listen to other ideas, in fact I welcome it. 

So, based on most of this thread it would seem that my definitions might be wrong. 

So help a brother out...


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

BluesPower said:


> Yes, amen and yes again... And not to pile on but try to listen.
> 
> Wife/GF whatever, if she does not want to have sex, that is ABSOLUTLY NOT the definition of a good wife or IMHO the definitions of romantic love.
> 
> I am not sure why some people don't understand this?
> 
> And I am not saying that I am right and I will not listen to other opinions, I just have not heard anyone say anything that has convince me that I am wrong.
> 
> I am fairly enlightened, I am willing to listen to other ideas, in fact I welcome it.
> 
> So, based on most of this thread it would seem that my definitions might be wrong.
> 
> So help a brother out...


Again, it's a matter of degree. Doesn't want to have sex at all? I think we would all agree... not a good wife. 

Doesn't want to have sex 3x/day and 5x on Sunday? Hard to fault her about that. 

There's a whole lot of grey in between. There are degrees of goodness or badness. Very few are in a situation that is a slam dunk, one way or the other.


----------



## BluesPower

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Again, it's a matter of degree. Doesn't want to have sex at all? I think we would all agree... not a good wife.
> 
> Doesn't want to have sex 3x/day and 5x on Sunday? Hard to fault her about that.
> 
> There's a whole lot of grey in between. There are degrees of goodness or badness. Very few are in a situation that is a slam dunk, one way or the other.


Look, I get that you are really working this to get us to understand. I get it. I am not saying that you are wrong. 

But look, let not use extremes one way or another. We are not talking about 3x per day, you would feel lucky if she WANTED to have sex with you once a week. Not duty sex. 

I am talking about LOVE, DESIRE, all the way around. 

I am talking about what it is like, when you touch a woman on the small of the back, she wants to screw. 

I am talking about a kiss on the back of the neck leads to sex on the kitchen table. 

I am talking about a real, loving, hot sexy relationship. 

I will leave you be, I give...


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

BluesPower said:


> Look, I get that you are really working this to get us to understand. I get it. I am not saying that you are wrong.
> 
> But look, let not use extremes one way or another. We are not talking about 3x per day, you would feel lucky if she WANTED to have sex with you once a week. Not duty sex.
> 
> I am talking about LOVE, DESIRE, all the way around.
> 
> I am talking about what it is like, when you touch a woman on the small of the back, she wants to screw.
> 
> I am talking about a kiss on the back of the neck leads to sex on the kitchen table.
> 
> I am talking about a real, loving, hot sexy relationship.
> 
> I will leave you be, I give...


But what exactly constitutes "LOVE, DESIRE, all the way around?" Again, how frequently do you expect her to want to screw just because you touched her on the small of the back? Where do you draw the line as to what constitutes true love? I suspect there's been some time.... at least once.... when your touch didn't automatically part her legs. What if it was twice? Five times out of 100 tries? Is that evidence of no love? What about 20 times out of 100 times? At what point do you decide it is or isn't true love? Is it the same for every woman? If one woman doesn't love you for turning you down once, is it the same for every woman? What if the other woman has a physical limitation? 

Conceptually, what you say makes some sense. But you're still not addressing the great variation--you are yourself still only talking in absolutes. "When I touch her, she wants to screw." Period. No qualifiers. No alternatives. 

And you seem to be creating a pure, one-to-one correlation between "love" and "desire." Is it not possible to have strong love without wanting to **** every time someone kisses your neck? It sure as hell is possible to want to screw at the drop of a hat without actually being in love, so why wouldn't the converse be true.


----------



## BluesPower

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Again, how frequently do you expect her to want to screw just because you touched her on the small of the back? Where do you draw the line as to what constitutes true love?
> 
> Conceptually, what you say makes some sense. But you're still not addressing the great variation--you are yourself still only talking in absolutes. "When I touch her, she wants to screw." Period. No qualifiers. No alternatives.


These two comments show how men like you and me can never understand each other.

To answer your first question, unless sick, every freaking time. Get it. I expect her to want to have sex every freaking time that I touch her. Could she not be feeling well, sure it happens. But I expect her to want to have sex, I expect her to want to please me, I picked her because she likes sex as much as I do. 

IT IS THAT FREAKING SIMPLE. 

I expect a woman that I am in a romantic relationship to desire me, to want to F me. She wants me to want her.

Yes I talk in absolutes because I accept nothing less that absolute love and desire. 

I know that you cannot understand that. 

Think of it like this. I have never, in my ENTIRE life ASKED as woman for sex, never. It happens or it does not. If it does not, more than a couple of times without a reason, then she is toast. 

I don't know how to explain it any other way...


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

BluesPower said:


> These two comments show how men like you and me can never understand each other.
> 
> To answer your first question, unless sick, every freaking time. Get it. I expect her to want to have sex every freaking time that I touch her. Could she not be feeling well, sure it happens. But I expect her to want to have sex, I expect her to want to please me, I picked her because she likes sex as much as I do.
> 
> IT IS THAT FREAKING SIMPLE.
> 
> I expect a woman that I am in a romantic relationship to desire me, to want to F me. She wants me to want her.
> 
> Yes I talk in absolutes because I accept nothing less that absolute love and desire.
> 
> I know that you cannot understand that.
> 
> Think of it like this. I have never, in my ENTIRE life ASKED as woman for sex, never. It happens or it does not. If it does not, more than a couple of times without a reason, then she is toast.
> 
> I don't know how to explain it any other way...


I don't think we could never understand each other. I can certainly understand you. You have now made your position perfectly straightforward and explicitly. I was just trying to find out explicitly if it is as extreme as you made it seem. It is. I can understand that perfectly. 

The woman you describe is pretty rare (giving the benefit of the doubt that you are actually not exaggerating and that your woman ****s you each and every time you approach, without exception). There are some very active, enlightened, liberated, and high desire women on these boards, and I suspect we'd still be hard pressed to find any among them who would automatically respond in the positive to each and every advance, without exception. Most of the time? Sure. ALWAYS, NO MATTER WHAT? Not likely.


----------



## BluesPower

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I don't think we could never understand each other. I can certainly understand you. You have now made your position perfectly straightforward and explicitly. I was just trying to find out explicitly if it is as extreme as you made it seem. It is. I can understand that perfectly.
> 
> The woman you describe is pretty rare (giving the benefit of the doubt that you are actually not exaggerating and that your woman ****s you each and every time you approach, without exception). There are some very active, enlightened, liberated, and high desire women on these boards, and I suspect we'd still be hard pressed to find any among them who would automatically respond in the positive to each and every advance, without exception. Most of the time? Sure. ALWAYS, NO MATTER WHAT? Not likely.


You are welcome to believe what you want. Never said always, she may not feel well, we may be tired, it has happened. But yes, with every women I have stayed with, this is how it is.

If a woman wants to be with me, this is how it works. If she does like it she can leave. 

Now she also gets the same consideration, when she wants sex, she gets it whether I am in the mood or not. While I am almost always ready, I do get tired. I think I have asked for one night off in a year because I was super tired. Other than that, it was on. 

Plus, she gets all the other things a relationship conveys, both of us do. But we love one another, we want to be together every minute that we can be. We hold each other all night long whether we had sex that night or not, usually we do, but not every night. Sometimes we just have sex in the morning. 

So you are welcome to be as condescending as you want, I could really care less.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

BluesPower said:


> You are welcome to believe what you want. Never said always, she may not feel well, we may be tired, it has happened. But yes, with every women I have stayed with, this is how it is.
> 
> If a woman wants to be with me, this is how it works. If she does like it she can leave.
> 
> Now she also gets the same consideration, when she wants sex, she gets it whether I am in the mood or not. While I am almost always ready, I do get tired. I think I have asked for one night off in a year because I was super tired. Other than that, it was on.
> 
> Plus, she gets all the other things a relationship conveys, both of us do. But we love one another, we want to be together every minute that we can be. We hold each other all night long whether we had sex that night or not, usually we do, but not every night. Sometimes we just have sex in the morning.
> 
> So you are welcome to be as condescending as you want, I could really care less.


Condescending?
Coming from the guy who's constantly saying he does't understand men with women who don't put out every time they blow in her ear? 
Please. You condescend in post after post. 

That you admit to having sex when not in the mood proves that the desire is not, after all, absolute. Some times you sacrifice. Which can be good for the relationship, but your definition of desire doesn't match your actions. I'm sure it's the same with your woman. If she's not in the mood and she still does it, that's cool for you, but it's still more akin to duty sex than desire sex. Again, I'm all for it, but it's disingenuous to call that desire. Having sex doesn't equal desire. So it naturally follows that not having sex EVERY FREAKING TIME (to use your exact words and capitalization) doesn't mean there is no desire. 

And it appears you have broken your own iron clad rule by refusing sex. So apparently it's not entirely black and white after all. You decided you were too tired. How tired is too tired? At what point does that line get crossed? What makes you able to say that you were legitimately too tired on that day, but if your woman says she's too tired, you kick her to the curb? What makes your tired more legit than anyone else's tired?


----------



## Handy

Rocky, Blues has the better sexual relationship, every time, most of the time, or he is breaking his own rules? you decide. I will ask what that you decide what is optimal for Rocky as to desired frequency and quality level.

I am like you, not wanting to push the W past her limits and look where we are. I am also not a big fan of divorse for many reasons. There are lots of us people trying to "nuce our way to a more satisfying relationship but it isn't working.


Would some of Blue's suggestion work with your W, I have no idea. Where it works for him is in the fact is his requirement for continuing his relationship is that certain relationship goodies must happen or he is moving on.

I haven't heard much talk in real life that women want and like sex except on a few forums so maybe me hearing the opposite in my community leads me and most likely you too, Blue has an exceptional partner and you or i wouldn't be so lucky.

I see Blue's thing working because he has high expectations where you and I see scarcity and the high cost on low sexual desire as common.

Could I do most of Blue's suggestions, it would be a drastic change for me. I am not knocking all his suggestions but I have never had his confidence or tried most of his suggestions. I have tried some of the things he brought up a very long time ago and it worked. My W changed. Some of life's trials and challenges seems to change women so what they used to like is now something they dislike or refuse to do which leads to the dilemma, how much can a person influence a spouse to be more sexual and have it work for both people?


----------



## PigglyWiggly

.....


----------



## BluesPower

Handy said:


> Rocky, Blues has the better sexual relationship, every time, most of the time, or he is breaking his own rules? you decide. I will ask what that you decide what is optimal for Rocky as to desired frequency and quality level.
> 
> I am like you, not wanting to push the W past her limits and look where we are. I am also not a big fan of divorse for many reasons. There are lots of us people trying to "nuce our way to a more satisfying relationship but it isn't working.
> 
> Would some of Blue's suggestion work with your W, I have no idea. Where it works for him is in the fact is his requirement for continuing his relationship is that certain relationship goodies must happen or he is moving on.
> 
> I haven't heard much talk in real life that women want and like sex except on a few forums so maybe me hearing the opposite in my community leads me and most likely you too, Blue has an exceptional partner and you or i wouldn't be so lucky.
> 
> I see Blue's thing working because he has high expectations where you and I see scarcity and the high cost on low sexual desire as common.
> 
> Could I do most of Blue's suggestions, it would be a drastic change for me. I am not knocking all his suggestions but I have never had his confidence or tried most of his suggestions. I have tried some of the things he brought up a very long time ago and it worked. My W changed. Some of life's trials and challenges seems to change women so what they used to like is now something they dislike or refuse to do which leads to the dilemma, how much can a person influence a spouse to be more sexual and have it work for both people?


Thanks @Handy. But just to point out one finer point. 

I am not necessarily DOING anything to GET sex. We just assume that we will have sex every day. Sometimes we don't but usually we do. If we have time, we try to have sex in the morning and at night. She is not unusual as far as woman go, except that she is the best one ever, but that is not just because she is great in bed. Mostly she is wonderful because she is not crazy. 

But as much as RMY gets upset with my attitude, I don't really do anything, it is just part what we do everyday. We have breakfast, lunch, dinner, sex. 

I don't find my relationships unusual sexually or any other way. It all just seems like it is the way that it is supposed to be. 

What I find unusual, is spending all my time and energy, begging, earning, scheming ways to get sex from a woman that is supposed to love me and want to have sex with me in the first place.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

azimuth said:


> RMY I don't know if you realize that you discount and try to prove wrong every single piece of advice. You're always right. In the words of Dr. Phil, how's that working out for you? You don't have to utilize the entire bit of Personal's post, but did you at least see anything that might help? Any approach? Or all of it wrong. I'm a woman and I actually thought his office chair story was hot. *A woman likes it when the man is so turned on he has to have her right then. *And I wouldn't say "do me on the chair before you leave." I just wouldn't, and maybe you want your wife to do that, but some women just aren't wired that way. Just because they don't initiate an equal number of times as their partner doesn't mean they wouldn't be receptive to a quicky or something like that office chair story. *She can always say no if she doesn't want to. *If you don't show her desire then she won't think she's desirable and then she certainly won't initiate. imo


Not even close to the truth. I have accepted many posts on this thread (and others). The ones I tend to be wary of are the ones that throw out one-size-fits-all answers or those that say "this worked for me so it's going to work for you" while overlooking key differences. 

The bolded in our post is a perfect example. That is a blanket statement that may or may not be true for all women, or for my wife in general. There have been times she has reacted favorably to that... other times not. You also mention initiation... but I've never expressed any kind of expectation that the initiate any particular proportion of the time, let alone equally. 

"She can always say no if she doesn't want to."
Which is exactly what she does do rather often. My lack of initiation came only after years of showing desire with frequently negative responses. You also have confused cause and effect.


----------



## TJW

BluesPower said:


> What I find unusual, is spending all my time and energy, begging, earning, scheming ways to get sex from a woman that is supposed to love me and want to have sex with me in the first place.


I don't find it all that "unusual". "Usual" is a better description, in my experience. And, I am resentful of it.

And, I find the idea that I must do dishes, change diapers, run the sweeper, bring flowers, send gifts, etc., in order to get sex complete nonsense. I have watched other guys (who won the genetic lottery) get sex without doing any of that crap. They get it, obviously, because the women want it, not because they jump through hoops. They don't do any jumping.....sometimes, they don't even buy drinks or pay for the no-tell motel....

That's what I want....but can never get. My GF was right, 47 years ago, when she said "...you are just not the kind of guy women go for...".

I should have listened to her. I would have saved myself from 47 years of being resentful of being "plan B provider guy". Basically, I'm nothing more than a "john".....and, being a real "john" would have cost me a hell of a lot less.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Piggly,
That's a very thoughtful post. I'll try to answer as best I can. 



PigglyWiggly said:


> To be fair, RMY, if given a do over, I am sure would only marry someone who understood what he requires sexually but RMY already stated that he didn't have a lot of experience before his wife so he didn't really know what his requirements would be. He got married around the age of 20 (i think). My requirements at 20 were vastly different than they are at 50 as are my wife's.
> I was 22. But sexually, I would be considered much younger. Plenty of dating, not much sex. Although my wife and I had been sexually active with each other for about 10 months before we got married.
> 
> I gave my advice earlier thinking RMY was only having sex 1x per month and that it was almost always duty sex. That doesn't seem to be the case so I deleted my advice. I think Personal has given the best advice towards creating more desire. Mrs RMY doesn't seem to be able to push beyond her own boundaries by herself. It's probably going to take the proper approach and attitude by RMY for him to take control and lead his wife outside those boundaries. To me, this is where the disconnect is, approach, leading and attitude.
> I have, on multiple occasions, tried to "take control and lead his wife outside those boundaries." I have failed. How much of that is just hard and fast limitations on her part and how much was ineptitude on my part I really can't say. There were glimmers of hope, moments of exploration and discovery, but even those never produced anything lasting.
> 
> I used to think my wife was vanilla. Left to her own devices, she doesn't require much more than missionary and occasional oral as well as cowboy position. She also doesn't get the thrill that I do from just the act of pushing boundaries. I've learned that she is really, what I like to call, French Vanilla. With me taking control and leading, she almost has no boundaries and can enthusiastically enjoy just about any sex act. Maybe Mrs RMY is French Vanilla as well.
> See paragraph immediately above. If my wife is French Vanilla, I haven't been able to find the recipe. She says she's perfectly happy with nothing but missionary. She'll try other things once in a while, but never seems to enjoy them as much as the same ol, same ol.
> 
> Rocky, if your wife had increased desire, the frequency you would like would "naturally" take care of itself. So, you are left with solving the intimacy puzzle. My question is what do you need to satisfy that? For me, no matter the act, I need my wife to be emotionally present and a have certain level of enthusiasm. I can masturbate while looking at her boobs and it feel completely intimate like full on sex if she meets those requirements. Would a scenario like that with your wife meet your needs at times? I ask because when I initiate sex and she is NOT really feeling it, I let her pick her level of involvement.
> I am open to alternative scenarios. She thinks they are unnatural.
> 
> Here are the options on the table to meet my needs:
> Masturbation with her as the visual and vocal stimulation
> Jack and Jill (mutual masturbation)
> Hand job
> Blow Job
> Full on sex
> 
> As long as my intimacy requirements are met, any of those will satisfy me and she is always willing to pick one of those options. Would that satisfy you when your wife doesn't have desire for sex at times?
> Yes. And I have stated as much with her. And I don't recall her ever declining giving a HJ if I ask. But I didn't start asking until recently and these days it can take a while. It's obvious she loses interest before completion, at which point I feel bad, which makes it harder to finish. That's my mental hangup, I know. Working on that.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

BluesPower said:


> But yes, with every women I have stayed with, this is how it is.


Which says that your magic formula isn't so magic after all. You have a history of moving on. Every relationship you've had where "every woman" has met your demands, has ended (Except the current one of course, but given that all the others have ended, to expect this one to be any different would be odd).

So apparently your own formula isn't sustainable. 

Now to be clear, that wasn't condescension. I'm not making any assertions that you're wrong for cycling through chicks. I'm just pointing out that it's not the universal hotbed of goodness you claim it to be. If it was, you'd still be together with your first (or your second, or your third, and so on).


----------



## BluesPower

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Which says that your magic formula isn't so magic after all. You have a history of moving on. Every relationship you've had where "every woman" has met your demands, has ended (Except the current one of course, but given that all the others have ended, to expect this one to be any different would be odd).
> 
> So apparently your own formula isn't sustainable.
> 
> Now to be clear, that wasn't condescension. I'm not making any assertions that you're wrong for cycling through chicks. I'm just pointing out that it's not the universal hotbed of goodness you claim it to be. If it was, you'd still be together with your first (or your second, or your third, and so on).


Again, you miss the primary point. Actually, I have never actually moved on because the sex was not good or frequent. I have not called back girls where the sex was not good, but mostly we were probably not a match. Not everyone is. 

Most of my relationships ended when cray cray came out. Now there is the threat, which I do not advertise or actually use as a threat, that if IT meaning the relationship is not going well, I won't hang around. 

But that is not a threat really, it is just kind of a fact. 

I look at it this way: I am a desirable man, not super good looking but not bad. But I am not a pretty as I use to be at 54. I am good in bed, I would be a complete moron at this age if I was not. I am not rich, but I have some money. I don't have a huge **** but not bad I guess, I am not concerned about other men as I am straight. I am talented in a number of areas, music being the main one, and I am kind of a cool journeyman player at this age, I am not a rock star. But yes I am also kind of cool musician guy and a great player. 

But then, a lot of women that I have been with don't even know that I am a musician unless I met them somewhere where I was playing. 

My current GF, was freaked out the first time that she actually heard me play with a band at a club. I don't know why, I told her I was a super good guitar player, my kids tour the country, I have traveled playing in the US. I guess she did not understand, but I did not use "That" to get her. She did not even know. 

Back to the point, I don't think I am all that overall. I do know how to treat a woman, which is like a queen. But what other way are you supposed to treat them? I cook for her when I am with her because I like to cook. I rub her back because she wants me too. I changed diapers in my marriage because the kid needed a change. 

And look, to everyone, I am also not trying to be condescending in anyway. 

But I hurt for the men and women in unsatisfying sexual relationships, and I have a hard time understanding why it happens. 

If a women loves you, real actual romantic love, then she wants to have sex with you and you want to have sex with her. And no, I don't have to be in love to have sex, but it is not as good if you are not. 

Maybe I am just a weird guy for some reason, I really don't know...


----------



## CharlieParker

PigglyWiggly said:


> I ask because when I initiate sex and she is NOT really feeling it, I let her pick her level of involvement.


That’s “I say when, she says what”. No isn’t an option (with honest exceptions). This form of compromise seems to work better than splitting the frequency difference.


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## Openminded

RMY, I normally stay away from threads like this one because I'm not very good at explaining why some women aren't as interested but there are lots of reasons and what applies to one doesn't necessarily apply to another. But you love her and want to be with her and she loves you and wants to be with you. Could there be slight or moderate change in your situation? Of course. Major change? Probably not. In a perfect world, sexual drives would always match but the truth is that they very often don't. Unfortunately. Best wishes.


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## farsidejunky

It's frequently true for submissive women, RMY. That is a much more accurate statement.


Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Not even close to the truth. I have accepted many posts on this thread (and others). The ones I tend to be wary of are the ones that throw out one-size-fits-all answers or those that say "this worked for me so it's going to work for you" while overlooking key differences.
> 
> The bolded in our post is a perfect example. That is a blanket statement that may or may not be true for all women, or for my wife in general. There have been times she has reacted favorably to that... other times not. You also mention initiation... but I've never expressed any kind of expectation that the initiate any particular proportion of the time, let alone equally.
> 
> "She can always say no if she doesn't want to."
> Which is exactly what she does do rather often. My lack of initiation came only after years of showing desire with frequently negative responses. You also have confused cause and effect.


Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Faithful Wife

RMY, I haven’t read all the recent posts, but a lot of them. I just want to say that I believe you know your wife very well and are reading her accurately. She simply is not a very sexual person, she may be pushed a little but unlike some women who respond positively to being pushed, she will ultimately resent all pushing of her boundaries. There is nothing wrong with her. She is who she is and you know that changing her isn’t the goal. You have tried and wished for increased desire on her part but it is not forthcoming and you are not into forcing beyond the reasonable lengths you have already taken. 

I don’t understand why some posters still try to make it out like there’s a fire you haven’t lit. I said before that it is true she may feel a fire get lit if you actually had one foot out the door, because that sometimes happens. But a fire lit under threat isn’t what you want. Those who do a turnaround like that at the prospect of divorce are sometimes just experiencing hysterical bonding. It may not last, anyway.

I think you know where you are. Your only choices are to accept her and your sex life the way they are and try to focus on all the other good things, or bail and “blow up everyone’s lives”. I don’t envy you, but I also know you and your wife love each other and that for the time being you are there. 

Even though I’m a huge voice for the existence of HD women, I also fully respect the position of truly LD people. I don’t think there is anything wrong with them or that they need to be changed. I just think people should be in well matched relationships and these type problems almost always occur when they are not. It is not either partners fault. It is on both of their shoulders for not making sure there was a match. Youth and ignorance of course is the leading cause of these mismatches. Which is heartbreaking because there is no way to know what you don’t know. But even still, we all made choices we thought were best at the time, and when it was revealed they were not good choices, the consequences are still felt by us who made the poor choices, ignorance or youth being no protection. 

So I see you where you are, and I wonder why some are still talking about lighting a fire. I don’t get it. It’s so far beyond that.


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## PigglyWiggly

....


----------



## Faithful Wife

Also RMY...a note about responsive desire, dominance, submission, etc...

As an experienced highly sexual person, I want to speak on my ex h’s behalf. The issues of responsive desire and the need some women have to be a little or a lot dominated in order to become aroused, are an individual preference thing. My ex was easily able to act in dominant ways and I could act in submissive ways. However, if my arousal or desire was dependent on those types of actions, or if my desire was responsive only, he would never have continued in a relationship with me once he determined this. That was not his style. He only wanted to partner with someone who could easily feel her desire and wanted to shower him with it. He also enjoyed being seduced and tempted, so he loved that I was free with my body and my sexuality. If there were cat and mouse games, the cat always won, the mouse never escaped. There was no wondering if I would respond to him sexually or not, or vice versa. There was open communication about what we liked and didn’t like, not years of coyly trying to get information out of each other. If I wanted him to tie me up in bed and then say naughty things about me and molest me, I had to be aware and open enough to tell him so and talk about it with joy and enthusiasm afterwards. The idea of needing to give “after care” to each other is foreign to me, it was always after glow. 

My point: this highly sexual man who had choices in the market place did not ever feel turned on by the dynamic of responsive desire, or the need to dominate a woman in order for her to become aroused. So the fact that you are relatively inexperienced does not mean you just need to learn how to trigger her responsive desire through dominance games. You don’t want sex like that, and you know that about yourself. It may work wonderfully for others, but you want a woman who knows she wants you and you can be yourself, not a pretend dominant.

My ex h frequently chose to have slow, connected, intimate but basically vanilla sex much of the time, even though we literally had an open door to any kind of kinky sex 2 people can have. He was highly sexual but also had wide preferences. All sex with him lead to intimacy, however. That was always the goal. If you have to chase someone down or stand on your head before they will become sexual with you, for some people this would be the ultimate turn off.


----------



## MEM2020

To be precise - unless I misunderstood you - there was a significant time period where R2 was gate keeping you to once a month.

While not technically sexless at 12/year - you are splitting hairs. 

If M2 said - we can go at most once a month or not at all - I’d insist on nothing. But then the tone of the marriage would become completely different. Instead of an overall happiness maximization model, it would be a zero sum game where each person tries to maximize their individual outcome. 

And I don’t mean that I’d be adversarial. I wouldn’t. But I would focus on what’s good for me independent of what M2 wants. 






Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Actually, if she flat out didn't want sex, that would make it easy. She does... just not often, and not with much variety. Maybe I shouldn't have posted in a thread entitled "Sexless marriage...." Our marriage is not, by either literal or clinical definition, sexless. There's just a big mismatch.


----------



## MEM2020

Rocky,

My suggestion to most folks is that if FW posts on your thread - you are best served by:
1. Reading her individual posts at least three times 
2. Constructing questions based on those posts - and then either posting or private messaging those questions to her

She is exceptionally perceptive and experienced and equally important - her ONLY agenda is to help you in the truest sense of the word. 






Faithful Wife said:


> RMY, I haven’t read all the recent posts, but a lot of them. I just want to say that I believe you know your wife very well and are reading her accurately. She simply is not a very sexual person, she may be pushed a little but unlike some women who respond positively to being pushed, she will ultimately resent all pushing of her boundaries. There is nothing wrong with her. She is who she is and you know that changing her isn’t the goal. You have tried and wished for increased desire on her part but it is not forthcoming and you are not into forcing beyond the reasonable lengths you have already taken.
> 
> I don’t understand why some posters still try to make it out like there’s a fire you haven’t lit. I said before that it is true she may feel a fire get lit if you actually had one foot out the door, because that sometimes happens. But a fire lit under threat isn’t what you want. Those who do a turnaround like that at the prospect of divorce are sometimes just experiencing hysterical bonding. It may not last, anyway.
> 
> I think you know where you are. Your only choices are to accept her and your sex life the way they are and try to focus on all the other good things, or bail and “blow up everyone’s lives”. I don’t envy you, but I also know you and your wife love each other and that for the time being you are there.
> 
> Even though I’m a huge voice for the existence of HD women, I also fully respect the position of truly LD people. I don’t think there is anything wrong with them or that they need to be changed. I just think people should be in well matched relationships and these type problems almost always occur when they are not. It is not either partners fault. It is on both of their shoulders for not making sure there was a match. Youth and ignorance of course is the leading cause of these mismatches. Which is heartbreaking because there is no way to know what you don’t know. But even still, we all made choices we thought were best at the time, and when it was revealed they were not good choices, the consequences are still felt by us who made the poor choices, ignorance or youth being no protection.
> 
> So I see you where you are, and I wonder why some are still talking about lighting a fire. I don’t get it. It’s so far beyond that.


----------



## *Deidre*

Livvie said:


> I read many pages of the posts. Wow!!!!
> 
> Many of these women want to be asexual in their marriages, without negative judgment. WITHOUT negative judgment or consequences!! They completely fail to understand that marriage is by definition a sexual relationship. They truly don't understand why sex is viewed as an important part of marriage and are very very mad that it is.
> 
> That's the part I don't understand, at all, how on Earth they got the idea that marriage doesn't imply a sexual relationship.
> 
> These women want a friendship/roommate/companion, no sex.
> 
> Anyone have any idea the genesis of their mindset that they should entitled to marriage when all they are going to provide in the relationship is opposite sex friendship??


From what I've read on here in diff threads, it seems like those women just wanted a guy to pay the bills, and raise kids with. They got what they wanted, and then the marriage becomes sexless. 

But to answer your question, the legal system is stacked against men in divorces, and in favor of women. (it's slowly changing, but still not fast enough) So, many women just want a lifestyle and kids, and they know their husbands will be hard pressed to leave them. Truly sad.

This isn't to say however, that there aren't men who are making the marriage ''sexless.'' I think it's a two way street, and often times, it's because of affairs.


----------



## Buddy400

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> It's obvious she loses interest before completion [/COLOR]


So, let's say your wife asked you to talk with her about something; You say sure but you lose interest before she's done discussing it. Would she be okay with that?

It's just so hard for me to believe she wouldn't see the problem with "losing interest before completion".

Ask her again. When she seems to start losing interest, stop. If she asks why you stopped, tell her it was because she seemed to lose interest. She'll understand or she'll try to convince you that she didn't. Either way, it would be good to know. If you just stop asking because you perceive her losing interest, then she never knows what she did wrong and there's always the slight chance you misread her.

Better yet, ask for a blow job instead.


----------



## azimuth

Faithful Wife said:


> So I see you where you are, and I wonder why some are still talking about lighting a fire. I don’t get it. It’s so far beyond that.


I don't see it as criticism of what he hasn't done, but offering what he can do. He talks about how he's frustrated, and also says that he won't leave. Some posters are giving him some tips on how to improve the situation since he won't leave. You're right in the fact that they're both in love and he knows her better than anyone. I think people were offering advice to his suffering, not knowing that this is his safe space to merely vent.


----------



## azimuth

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Not even close to the truth. *I have accepted many posts on this thread (and others). The ones I tend to be wary of are the ones that throw out one-size-fits-all answers or those that say "this worked for me so it's going to work for you" while overlooking key differences.
> 
> *The bolded in our post is a perfect example. That is a blanket statement that may or may not be true for all women, or for my wife in general. There have been times she has reacted favorably to that... other times not. You also mention initiation... but I've never expressed any kind of expectation that the initiate any particular proportion of the time, let alone equally.
> 
> "She can always say no if she doesn't want to."
> Which is exactly what she does do rather often. My lack of initiation came only after years of showing desire with frequently negative responses. You also have confused cause and effect.


To the bolded, with all due respect yours go way beyond simply being wary, you're almost combative. You'll do a paragraph by paragraph rebuttal of most people responding trying to help you. And please don't tell me that I've confused cause and effect. I know what works for me, it's not confusing to me at all. I was telling you MY experience. There's a world outside full of people with different experiences. Humans are always changing.

In any case you're right. I did make a blanket statement and that was my bad. I hereby correct it to "*some* women like it when..." Myself included. So take that statement from a woman who enjoys sex everyday with the person I love, in many different positions and types.

I'm not sure what you're looking for, maybe it's just to vent at this point. You've tried everything, and no one's examples work because none of their wives is your wife. From reading more of your posts, it sounds like your wife maybe has some kind of fear around sex, if she only does missionary. How is she with nudity, is she naked around you, happy with her body? Is she ashamed of being sexual maybe? I'm just guessing, I have no idea because I can't really relate but I empathize. You don't even have to think about it since I'm sure you've already reached a conclusion on that.

I know you'll probably find all kinds of things wrong with this post as well, so you don't have to go to the trouble of dissecting it line by line telling me I'm wrong. Just know that I was trying to help. I'm sorry you've missed out on a lifelong fulfilling sex life. I hope you find a way to be happy and have peace. Bowing out.


----------



## 269370

BluesPower said:


> These two comments show how men like you and me can never understand each other.
> 
> 
> 
> To answer your first question, unless sick, every freaking time. Get it. I expect her to want to have sex every freaking time that I touch her. Could she not be feeling well, sure it happens. But I expect her to want to have sex, I expect her to want to please me, I picked her because she likes sex as much as I do.
> 
> 
> 
> IT IS THAT FREAKING SIMPLE.
> 
> 
> 
> I expect a woman that I am in a romantic relationship to desire me, to want to F me. She wants me to want her.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes I talk in absolutes because I accept nothing less that absolute love and desire.
> 
> 
> 
> I know that you cannot understand that.
> 
> 
> 
> Think of it like this. I have never, in my ENTIRE life ASKED as woman for sex, never. It happens or it does not. If it does not, more than a couple of times without a reason, then she is toast.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know how to explain it any other way...



Can I ask how your previous long term marriage fall apart? I understand it wasn’t lack of sex. What was it?


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

BluesPower said:


> Again, you miss the primary point. Actually, I have never actually moved on because the sex was not good or frequent. I have not called back girls where the sex was not good, but mostly we were probably not a match. Not everyone is.
> 
> Most of my relationships ended when cray cray came out. Now there is the threat, which I do not advertise or actually use as a threat, that if IT meaning the relationship is not going well, I won't hang around.
> 
> But that is not a threat really, it is just kind of a fact.
> 
> I look at it this way: I am a desirable man, not super good looking but not bad. But I am not a pretty as I use to be at 54. I am good in bed, I would be a complete moron at this age if I was not. I am not rich, but I have some money. I don't have a huge **** but not bad I guess, I am not concerned about other men as I am straight. I am talented in a number of areas, music being the main one, and I am kind of a cool journeyman player at this age, I am not a rock star. But yes I am also kind of cool musician guy and a great player.
> 
> But then, a lot of women that I have been with don't even know that I am a musician unless I met them somewhere where I was playing.
> 
> My current GF, was freaked out the first time that she actually heard me play with a band at a club. I don't know why, I told her I was a super good guitar player, my kids tour the country, I have traveled playing in the US. I guess she did not understand, but I did not use "That" to get her. She did not even know.
> 
> Back to the point, I don't think I am all that overall. I do know how to treat a woman, which is like a queen. But what other way are you supposed to treat them? I cook for her when I am with her because I like to cook. I rub her back because she wants me too. I changed diapers in my marriage because the kid needed a change.
> 
> And look, to everyone, I am also not trying to be condescending in anyway.
> 
> But I hurt for the men and women in unsatisfying sexual relationships, and I have a hard time understanding why it happens.
> 
> If a women loves you, real actual romantic love, then she wants to have sex with you and you want to have sex with her. And no, I don't have to be in love to have sex, but it is not as good if you are not.
> 
> Maybe I am just a weird guy for some reason, I really don't know...


Sorry, I don't recognize the reference "cray cray." In any case, my impression is that you think everything flows from a good sex life... yet even when you get that, you end up abandoning the relationship. 

I do agree with your core premise though... that true romantic love should be accompanied by strong, consistent sexual desire. My wife ha had a lot of legit physical problems, some sexually induced, so I have great difficulty trying to discern between straight up lack of desire and legit concern (problems or no problems, she is exceedingly risk averse. She broke a lot of hearts before taking a chance on me, which has always been a positive for me).

I wish I could say I was good in bed, but I honestly have little idea with so few reference points. I simply haven't been afforded the opportunity to develop. She says I'm perfect... but then the actions don't seem to match those words.

I also agree about treating her like a queen, something I can claim to be a master of. Her friends positively swoon over the way I treat her and talk to or about her. And I'm a helluva damn fine chef.


----------



## 269370

MEM2020 said:


> Rocky,
> 
> 
> 
> My suggestion to most folks is that if FW posts on your thread - you are best served by:
> 
> 1. Reading her individual posts at least three times
> 
> 2. Constructing questions based on those posts - and then either posting or private messaging those questions to her
> 
> 
> 
> She is exceptionally perceptive and experienced and equally important - her ONLY agenda is to help you in the truest sense of the word.




You should work in PR. 


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

farsidejunky said:


> It's frequently true for submissive women, RMY. That is a much more accurate statement.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Despite being risk averse and nonconfrontational, my wife is amazingly strong willed. This is one of the things that drew me to her long term.

I never liked the truly submissive women I dated. I'm not submissive myself and I'm not looking to be dominated, but I like someone who has a mind of her own and who will keep me on my own toes. This may be a case of "Be careful what you ask for...."


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

MEM2020 said:


> To be precise - unless I misunderstood you - there was a significant time period where R2 was gate keeping you to once a month.
> 
> While not technically sexless at 12/year - you are splitting hairs.
> 
> If M2 said - we can go at most once a month or not at all - I’d insist on nothing. But then the tone of the marriage would become completely different. Instead of an overall happiness maximization model, it would be a zero sum game where each person tries to maximize their individual outcome.
> 
> And I don’t mean that I’d be adversarial. I wouldn’t. But I would focus on what’s good for me independent of what M2 wants.


Not adversarial at all. A rather cogent post as far as I can tell. I might just split another hair and say it wasn't gatekeeping so much as it was driven by limitations, some perceived, some very real.


----------



## MEM2020

Agree with every bit of this. 



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Despite being risk averse and nonconfrontational, my wife is amazingly strong willed. This is one of the things that drew me to her long term.
> 
> I never liked the truly submissive women I dated. I'm not submissive myself and I'm not looking to be dominated, but I like someone who has a mind of her own and who will keep me on my own toes. This may be a case of "Be careful what you ask for...."


----------



## 269370

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Sorry, I don't recognize the reference "cray cray." In any case, my impression is that you think everything flows from a good sex life... yet even when you get that, you end up abandoning the relationship.
> 
> 
> 
> I do agree with your core premise though... that true romantic love should be accompanied by strong, consistent sexual desire. My wife ha had a lot of legit physical problems, some sexually induced, so I have great difficulty trying to discern between straight up lack of desire and legit concern (problems or no problems, she is exceedingly risk averse. She broke a lot of hearts before taking a chance on me, which has always been a positive for me).
> 
> 
> 
> I wish I could say I was good in bed, but I honestly have little idea with so few reference points. I simply haven't been afforded the opportunity to develop. She says I'm perfect... but then the actions don't seem to match those words.
> 
> 
> 
> I also agree about treating her like a queen, something I can claim to be a master of. Her friends positively swoon over the way I treat her and talk to or about her. And I'm a helluva damn fine chef.




You know I read your exchange with BluesPower and think to myself: isn’t it just a matter of attitude?
BluesPower firmly believes every woman he has been with always wants to **** him (with minor exceptions, when he or she is tired...). Good on him.

But funny thing is, you could actually claim the same. If you wanted to. A lot of it is to do with attitude: she doesn’t reject you and if you insisted, she would do things with you she would normally not come out herself wanting to do.

I think people are maybe not understanding or not reading your posts correctly and pigeon hole your situation into a ‘no sex / rejection marriage’. That’s clearly not the case. (And that explains some of your ‘combative’ responses; I also don’t have patience when people can’t read properly). She does not constantly reject you (right?) and she is happy with your sex life. YOU are not happy with your sex life. YOU are not happy with how she approaches you (if she ever approaches you). YOU are not happy with HER, as your sexual mate. YOU are not happy with yourself.

I don’t mean this as criticism (I know it doesn’t sound like it). But I really would urge you to check inside you, to see if there’s something that YOU can change in YOUR attitude towards the whole situation.

My wife is no sex goddess / nympho either. It is a fact that I want her more often and more urgently and more ‘spontaneously’ than she does me. I don’t get bogged down by this. (I used to).
I am so excited by her that I don’t even have time to notice whether she is skilful in this or that area...I’m too busy enjoying myself and her while doing stuff with / to her. I’m not saying this in a show-offy way but when you write higher up that HJs take you now much longer ‘possibly because you feel it’s a chore for her’. That is clearly inside your head. And I’m not sure SHE is the reason they take you longer.

I do think a lot of men’s libido goes down with years; but they put some of it onto their partner (sorry for repeating by myself), to make it their responsibility to get the man off.

She is willing to have sex with you, you don’t feel she’s that enthusiastic or that she cannot come out of her shell: your complaints are all about HER performance. Do you still feel strong / irresistible attraction towards her? If you did, I really think you wouldn’t care giving her performance marks or not. 

I remember back in school, I had an orgasm kissing my now wife. It was a simple kiss and it was Very embarrassing. But at no point did I have time to consider what her performance was like, kissing me back or not....

I really think you should seriously ask yourself the question how much of it is your frustration towards yourself and your naturally declining libido. Or how much of it is due to the decline of your attraction towards her. Lack of sufficient attraction is also a very valid reason to be frustrated and even to leave and find somebody who might light your fire more. But should you be giving her (and yourself) such a hard time trying to change something that you know cant be changed?

Try different things; watch porn together, talk dirty to each other, do role plays, try different locations: she is not going to ‘forbid’ you any of this, right? Especially if you make it clear how important you feel it is to your marriage. You are not one of those couples with the sadistic wife who will starve the husband of sex.

You (possibly) don’t have the confidence or that strong a desire to try those things; perhaps you fear she might reject it or perhaps you won’t enjoy it as much as you think you might?

Sure you could possibly get a nympho half her age to ‘catch up with the life you missed’. But you know deep down this will not solve the core problem (or it might solve it temporarily) and potentially bring you 100 new problems.


I do think at least half of it is your attitude and biology (declining libido), coupled with some projection. You don’t find your wife revolting, right?


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----------



## BioFury

TJW said:


> That's what I want....but can never get. My GF was right, 47 years ago, when she said "...*you are just not the kind of guy women go for*...".
> 
> I should have listened to her. I would have saved myself from 47 years of being resentful of being "plan B provider guy". Basically, I'm nothing more than a "john".....and, being a real "john" would have cost me a hell of a lot less.


Geez, what prompted that comment?



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> It's obvious she loses interest before completion, at which point I feel bad, which makes it harder to finish. That's my mental hangup, I know. Working on that.


Why not try stopping her? It may increase her respect for you, and communicate that you won't accept a sub-par performance. 

In addition, why settle for the handjob when her mouth is available?


----------



## 269370

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Despite being risk averse and nonconfrontational, my wife is amazingly strong willed. This is one of the things that drew me to her long term.
> 
> 
> 
> I never liked the truly submissive women I dated.  I'm not submissive myself and I'm not looking to be dominated, but I like someone who has a mind of her own and who will keep me on my own toes. This may be a case of "Be careful what you ask for...."




That’s fine and I like strong willed women too (not the ones who need to shout this to the world but truly strong willed: who know and take what they want quietly). I think the whole point is that this dynamic can (and should) switch around in bed. Otherwise those ‘strong willed’ women find LIFE a chore, not to mention sex...Ask around how many strong willed and normally dominant women love to just let it all go and be ‘man handled’ and dominated in bed. It is always surprising...


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

azimuth said:


> To the bolded, with all due respect yours go way beyond simply being wary, you're almost combative. You'll do a paragraph by paragraph rebuttal of most people responding trying to help you. And please don't tell me that I've confused cause and effect. I know what works for me, it's not confusing to me at all. I was telling you MY experience. There's a world outside full of people with different experiences. Humans are always changing.
> 
> In any case you're right. I did make a blanket statement and that was my bad. I hereby correct it to "*some* women like it when..." Myself included. So take that statement from a woman who enjoys sex everyday with the person I love, in many different positions and types.
> 
> I'm not sure what you're looking for, maybe it's just to vent at this point. You've tried everything, and no one's examples work because none of their wives is your wife. From reading more of your posts, it sounds like your wife maybe has some kind of fear around sex, if she only does missionary. How is she with nudity, is she naked around you, happy with her body? Is she ashamed of being sexual maybe? I'm just guessing, I have no idea because I can't really relate but I empathize. You don't even have to think about it since I'm sure you've already reached a conclusion on that.
> 
> I know you'll probably find all kinds of things wrong with this post as well, so you don't have to go to the trouble of dissecting it line by line telling me I'm wrong. Just know that I was trying to help. I'm sorry you've missed out on a lifelong fulfilling sex life. I hope you find a way to be happy and have peace. Bowing out.



I wish you would consider the totality of my responses rather than just one. A number of people have come at me with everything from you're a sap to tough love to you need to face/do (something against your grain), etc. I have not only appreciated, but expressed appreciation for most. FaithfulWife was vary straightforward with some very uncomfortable advice. Much appreciated. Buddy has given me a couple (mild) 2x4s. Much thanks. MEM has given me some much valued course corrections. I'm sure there a more I've forgotten. 

But Personal's post seemed very cookie cutter, based on false assumptions or flat out overlooking or disregard of key elements I had previously posted. Now Personal has no obligation to try to give tailored advice, but when it's not, I'm going to clarify. And that's all I was doing. Not trying to be combative as you perceived. Just letting him know where he missed the mark. He can agree or not, continue the discussion or not, completely up to him. By contrast, look at my discussion with Piggly. Now if I was predisposed to get combative with anyone, it would be Piggly as we have sparred fiercely on the Politics board. If there's anyone I should harbor a confrontational attitude going in with, it would be Piggly. And Piggly's first response did miss a few things, to which I responded much like I did to Personal's. Piggly took the response as intended and brought more tailored responses which have been very insightful. Again, nobody here has any obligation to do any such thing, so I don't expect it, but I do very much appreciate it when it comes, and I say so, or at least give a "like" so the poster knows I have read, understood, and am taking it to heart. 

Now to answer your new question, my wife is naked every chance she gets. She is completely comfortable being naked around me any and all times. She has absolute, total comfort with me seeing her naked, even ogling her which she actually likes. This is in spite of her middle aged angst about things not being as perky as they used to be, skin not being as smooth as it used to be, etc. Yet despite whatever age induced body image issues she may be developing, she continues to be completely comfortable parading around naked in front of me, or just going about her business around the house naked when I'm home. If we lived in a warmer climate, she'd do it even more.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

An open message to all who have responded to my contributions and rants on this topic...

As I entered this topic, I wasn't specifically looking for advice. Some of you may recall that, when I was looking for advice and input, I opened a specific thread. For this one, I was looking to make more general contributions. The topic is about "what you are up against," something I do know a thing about, so I thought I could add to the body of knowledge of all the things someone in a sexless marriage may be up against. I did allow some rant to come through as well. I thought it might help emphasize the coverage of the topic. Maybe I was wrong to do that.

Now, just because I wasn't actively looking for advice, don't think I haven't appreciated it greatly. I have. Even from those who I have come back at with counterarguments. That's how I push toward truth and something useful. (ftr, this is not a communication technique I use with my wife--it didn't take me long to realize that some very different means of discovery would be necessary to arrive at common ground during times of disagreement) The efforts by so many on this thread have been very impressive and I'm humbled by the genuinely interested help offered by total strangers. You people rock!

I really don't wish to dominate this thread any further. Just wanted to say thanks. Also, as previously noted (don't recall if it was in this thread or another), I'm headed for some legit, live human counseling (as soon as I can decide on a counselor) to augment the many useful inputs I've received here.


----------



## 269370

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I'm headed for some legit, live human counseling (as soon as I can decide on a counselor) to augment the many useful inputs I've received here.



You should do a couple’s one. Might be more useful in your case than single.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

inmyprime said:


> You know I read your exchange with BluesPower and think to myself: isn’t it just a matter of attitude?
> BluesPower firmly believes every woman he has been with always wants to **** him (with minor exceptions, when he or she is tired...). Good on him.
> 
> But funny thing is, you could actually claim the same. If you wanted to. A lot of it is to do with attitude: she doesn’t reject you and if you insisted, she would do things with you she would normally not come out herself wanting to do.
> 
> I think people are maybe not understanding or not reading your posts correctly and pigeon hole your situation into a ‘no sex / rejection marriage’. That’s clearly not the case. (And that explains some of your ‘combative’ responses; I also don’t have patience when people can’t read properly). She does not constantly reject you (right?) and she is happy with your sex life. YOU are not happy with your sex life. YOU are not happy with how she approaches you (if she ever approaches you). YOU are not happy with HER, as your sexual mate. YOU are not happy with yourself.
> 
> I don’t mean this as criticism (I know it doesn’t sound like it). But I really would urge you to check inside you, to see if there’s something that YOU can change in YOUR attitude towards the whole situation.
> 
> My wife is no sex goddess / nympho either. It is a fact that I want her more often and more urgently and more ‘spontaneously’ than she does me. I don’t get bogged down by this. (I used to).
> I am so excited by her that I don’t even have time to notice whether she is skilful in this or that area...I’m too busy enjoying myself and her while doing stuff with / to her. I’m not saying this in a show-offy way but when you write higher up that HJs take you now much longer ‘possibly because you feel it’s a chore for her’. That is clearly inside your head. And I’m not sure SHE is the reason they take you longer.
> 
> I do think a lot of men’s libido goes down with years; but they put some of it onto their partner (sorry for repeating by myself), to make it their responsibility to get the man off.
> 
> She is willing to have sex with you, you don’t feel she’s that enthusiastic or that she cannot come out of her shell: your complaints are all about HER performance. Do you still feel strong / irresistible attraction towards her? If you did, I really think you wouldn’t care giving her performance marks or not.
> 
> I remember back in school, I had an orgasm kissing my now wife. It was a simple kiss and it was Very embarrassing. But at no point did I have time to consider what her performance was like, kissing me back or not....
> 
> I really think you should seriously ask yourself the question how much of it is your frustration towards yourself and your naturally declining libido. Or how much of it is due to the decline of your attraction towards her. Lack of sufficient attraction is also a very valid reason to be frustrated and even to leave and find somebody who might light your fire more. But should you be giving her (and yourself) such a hard time trying to change something that you know cant be changed?
> 
> Try different things; watch porn together, talk dirty to each other, do role plays, try different locations: she is not going to ‘forbid’ you any of this, right? Especially if you make it clear how important you feel it is to your marriage. You are not one of those couples with the sadistic wife who will starve the husband of sex.
> 
> You (possibly) don’t have the confidence or that strong a desire to try those things; perhaps you fear she might reject it or perhaps you won’t enjoy it as much as you think you might?
> 
> Sure you could possibly get a nympho half her age to ‘catch up with the life you missed’. But you know deep down this will not solve the core problem (or it might solve it temporarily) and potentially bring you 100 new problems.
> 
> 
> I do think at least half of it is your attitude and biology (declining libido), coupled with some projection. You don’t find your wife revolting, right?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm confident this has nothing to do with my declining libido. I don't even know how much my libido is or isn't declining since it's never put to the test. I did get a recent T check and it showed much higher than typical for a man of my age. 

I have looked at my attitude long and hard. And I still hold out the possibility that this could all be in my head. In fact, I'd rather it was. That's something I can fix. I have fixed a number of very problematic things in myself by sheer force of will. It's a helluva lot easier than trying to fix someone else. But the more I think about it, the more that doesn't seem to be the case.

Much of what you say is pretty close to a mirror reflection of me, or at least who I was in the past. I would pour myself over her for hours if she'd let me. As it is I'd pour myself over her for 30-45 minutes and relish every last second of it if I was getting any inclination whatsoever that she was enjoying it. She's not demonstrative and I've learned to live with that. I've never expected the kind of "performance" that you seem to be talking about. 

When you say I have a hard time with the HJs because it seems like a chore for her being all in my head, you haven't been in the room at the time to see the aimless glancing around the room, the utter look of indifference on her face, etc. But you're right, the taking longer is not her fault (did I say it was?). It takes longer because I'm 53 years old. When we first started having sex, I busted my ass to train myself to last longer, so I could extend her pleasure. I think I was _too _effective in that. Add my advancing years and that's now a bad combo. 

Watching porn together is a non-starter. We actually did that once in our 20s. She was aroused. But despite her response, she still finds it repugnant, so it's not gonna happen. I have talked dirty to her (not vulgar, but suggestive and definitely horny) in the past. It seemed to improve her mood, but no corresponding effect on actual sex. She is open to, and enjoys such things, even if she's not going to respond. 

As for suggesting other things, I'm well over the fear of rejection. But that remains a two edged sword. While she likes the attention and reinforcement of her desirability, she also thinks some of my suggestions are disturbing (they're actually really quite mild compared to what most of the people on this site do on a regular basis). She wonders why I can't be happy with just the vanilla--to her that's a form of rejection/adds to her feeling that she'll never be able to satisfy me. 

As to your last statement, there's not really a black and white answer. When she turned 53, I told her she was even more beautiful to me than she was at 43, or 33, or even 23. And I meant it. I was utterly, completely sincere. She would complain of a wrinkle somewhere and I'd say "what wrinkle." And I meant it. I could not see physical imperfection anywhere on her. Intellectually, I could tell that an extra 20 years and three kids left her breasts less perky than before, but emotionally I couldn't see it. Her breasts were perfect, the only perfect pair in the world, because they were the only pair attached to her. I couldn't conceive of not seeing her as the goddess I must worship.

Then, when she told me how hard it was to have regular sex with me all those years, something snapped. The desire disappeared. Literally overnight. This wasn't the gradual lowering of libido associated with ageing, it was a purely mental function, pure and simple. And along with that destruction of desire, came full realization of every wrinkle, every grey hair, the nipples hanging down instead of pointing up and away. It was as if blinders had been removed and I could suddenly see the whole picture.

After that, she started getting handsy. Just laying in bed, she'd fondle my muscles or run her fingers through my chest hair. Rather than feeling elated, all I could think was "where the hell was this for the last 30 years! If you'd done this a little more even a few months ago, I'd still see you the way I have for three decades. You'd have a man demonstrating more desire than you thought imaginable. But your a day late and a dollar short on this one." I feel like the male version of the walk away wife who's just not going to get her mojo back after years of emotional neglect, no matter how much her husband has now seen the light. And even if I could, it wouldn't make much difference as her menopausal body can't close the deal anyway.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

BioFury said:


> Why not try stopping her? It may increase her respect for you, and communicate that you won't accept a sub-par performance.
> 
> In addition, why settle for the handjob when her mouth is available?


The stopping idea may be a good one. I don't have to finish to enjoy the effort or the act itself. And there is precedent. One day when I came home from work, she said to me she was going to give my thing her undivided attention for 15 minutes. She stripped me down, put me on the bed, started a timer, and wanked wonderfully for 15 minutes. I could have complained that she put a time limit on it, but the thing is it really seemed to work as she was fully present and engaged for those 15 minutes. She never once glanced at the timer to see how long she had to go. True to her word, she was utterly, completely focused on me for that duration. It was really kind of special. 

Don't assume that the mouth is available though. She does tire of that quite quickly.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

inmyprime said:


> You should do a couple’s one. Might be more useful in your case than single.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I suspect it will grow into that. I'm going to start with me. I'm looking for a counselor that excels both in individual and couple therapy. 

The thing is, I saw (at my wife's behest) behavioral psychologist who partners with MDs to find holistic (joint mind and body) solutions to outstanding medical issues. In recent months, my sleep apnea has really accelerated, and even before the apnea kicks in, I have great trouble getting to sleep in the first place. And then even with a late start, I wake up very early and I can't get back to sleep. I'm lucky to get 4 hrs of sleep a night, and because of the apnea, even that 4 hrs isn't quality sleep. Oh yeah, and my BP is skyrocketing. 

So after discussing a variety of medical treatments and making plans for further discussion of mental issues contributing, I mentioned my newfound resentment. Without hesitation, he said "_you _need to see a marriage counselor." He knows full well that this will escalate into MC, as it should.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> As to your last statement, there's not really a black and white answer. When she turned 53, I told her she was even more beautiful to me than she was at 43, or 33, or even 23. And I meant it. I was utterly, completely sincere. She would complain of a wrinkle somewhere and I'd say "what wrinkle." And I meant it. I could not see physical imperfection anywhere on her. Intellectually, I could tell that an extra 20 years and three kids left her breasts less perky than before, but emotionally I couldn't see it. Her breasts were perfect, the only perfect pair in the world, because they were the only pair attached to her. I couldn't conceive of not seeing her as the goddess I must worship.
> 
> Then, when she told me how hard it was to have regular sex with me all those years, something snapped. The desire disappeared. Literally overnight. This wasn't the gradual lowering of libido associated with ageing, it was a purely mental function, pure and simple. And along with that destruction of desire, came full realization of every wrinkle, every grey hair, the nipples hanging down instead of pointing up and away. It was as if blinders had been removed and I could suddenly see the whole picture.
> 
> After that, she started getting handsy. Just laying in bed, she'd fondle my muscles or run her fingers through my chest hair. Rather than feeling elated, all I could think was "where the hell was this for the last 30 years! If you'd done this a little more even a few months ago, I'd still see you the way I have for three decades. You'd have a man demonstrating more desire than you thought imaginable. But your a day late and a dollar short on this one." I feel like the male version of the walk away wife who's just not going to get her mojo back after years of emotional neglect, no matter how much her husband has now seen the light. And even if I could, it wouldn't make much difference as her menopausal body can't close the deal anyway.


This is sad, but is actually good for you that the blinders have come off. You needed that to happen. At least if you are going to have an unfulfilling sex life, you aren’t also on cloud 9 somewhere, not seeing reality. Her actual physical appearance is what you need to see. This way you can work on your reality, and give up the old dreams you had. Some of those dreams were fueled by those blinders, robbing you of the opportunity to deal with your reality emotionally more effectively. It’s better that you see her real self and deal with the real place you find yourself in. Don’t spend too long finding a counselor. Just pick one and if you didn’t feel a good connection, find another one.


----------



## Handy

* RMY
. I'm lucky to get 4 hrs of sleep a night, and because of the apnea, even that 4 hrs isn't quality sleep. *

I have been using a CPAP type of device for almost 10 years and my 5 hrs of sleep after using a CPAP is better than 7 hrs of non CPAP sleep. Pre CPAP, my main problems were that I partially woke up every couple of minuets, I rarely went into REM sleep and my blood O2 low which made my heart work more than necessary when I was sleeping. I highly recommend doing a sleep study and do what ever else the sleep study recommends. After a while, the down side of the equipment was a minor issue compared to the benefits. The only issues I have is the over priced tests and over priced equipment, even if most is paid for by the medical insurance I have.

People are different and react to stress in different ways. In addition to a sexless marriage, I recently have had some family related stressors and an down to 4 hrs of CPAP sleep. It sucks to be concerned about what family members do or don't due that will probably lead to bigger (in a negative way) issues for them. I am working on detaching from the family members ( as you are trying to be less reliant on your W) but I still worry about their dysfunctional activities. They often ask me to help them after things go way wrong just as your W relies on you to be a responsible H to her.


----------



## john117

It's not often I agree with what's written here but the 1x a month vs nothing --> choose nothing is actually the option to consider. 

For extra credit, refuse her once or twice when she offers. 

That does nuke the relationship but it has its use. 

A year ago we were in therapy trying to decipher WTF was going on. In a year I'll be contemplating what color (*) my midlife crisis car will be once this is all said and done. 

(*) British Racing Green of course

Give up the 1x a month ghost and clarity comes in spades. That clarity is most appreciated and is desperately needed. 

Look up the lyrics of my favorite song. Read and see if it is you. It was me. These lyrics hounded me initially. But I'm at a better place and she is, too.

"Black roses laced with silver
By a broken moon.
Ten million stars
And the whispered harmonies of leaves.
We were these.
Beside a dried up fountain
Lie five dusty tomes
With faded pasted pictures
Of love's reverie.
Across each cover is written,
"Herein are Photos of Ghosts"
Of ghosts, of ghosts,
Of the days we ran and the days we sang.

Group: Premiata Forneria Marconi"


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Handy said:


> * RMY
> . I'm lucky to get 4 hrs of sleep a night, and because of the apnea, even that 4 hrs isn't quality sleep. *
> 
> I have been using a CPAP type of device for almost 10 years and my 5 hrs of sleep after using a CPAP is better than 7 hrs of non CPAP sleep. Pre CPAP, my main problems were that I partially woke up every couple of minuets, I rarely went into REM sleep and my blood O2 low which made my heart work more than necessary when I was sleeping. I highly recommend doing a sleep study and do what ever else the sleep study recommends. After a while, the down side of the equipment was a minor issue compared to the benefits. The only issues I have is the over priced tests and over priced equipment, even if most is paid for by the medical insurance I have.
> 
> People are different and react to stress in different ways. In addition to a sexless marriage, I recently have had some family related stressors and an down to 4 hrs of CPAP sleep. It sucks to be concerned about what family members do or don't due that will probably lead to bigger (in a negative way) issues for them. I am working on detaching from the family members ( as you are trying to be less reliant on your W) but I still worry about their dysfunctional activities. They often ask me to help them after things go way wrong just as your W relies on you to be a responsible H to her.


I tried the CPAP thing and was actually worse of with it. Couldn't sleep at all. Period. Not only no REM sleep, no sleep at all. I was doing better with a dental guard, but that doesn't seem to be doing the trick now either. Hoping my new doc can come up with something that helps.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

john117 said:


> It's not often I agree with what's written here but the 1x a month vs nothing --> choose nothing is actually the option to consider.
> 
> For extra credit, refuse her once or twice when she offers.
> 
> That does nuke the relationship but it has its use.
> 
> A year ago we were in therapy trying to decipher WTF was going on. In a year I'll be contemplating what color (*) my midlife crisis car will be once this is all said and done.
> 
> (*) British Racing Green of course
> 
> Give up the 1x a month ghost and clarity comes in spades. That clarity is most appreciated and is desperately needed.
> 
> Look up the lyrics of my favorite song. Read and see if it is you. It was me. These lyrics hounded me initially. But I'm at a better place and she is, too.
> 
> "Black roses laced with silver
> By a broken moon.
> Ten million stars
> And the whispered harmonies of leaves.
> We were these.
> Beside a dried up fountain
> Lie five dusty tomes
> With faded pasted pictures
> Of love's reverie.
> Across each cover is written,
> "Herein are Photos of Ghosts"
> Of ghosts, of ghosts,
> Of the days we ran and the days we sang.
> 
> Group: Premiata Forneria Marconi"


I'm always up for a good PFM reference!

For the first time (and second) time in 31 years, she has been refused. Not that I had to actually say anything, it's just that there was no reaction to her fondling. I did tell her that I no longer feel the way I used to and it would manifest in my ability to be aroused. 

But it couldn't have come at a worse time. With my apnea worsening, she's chalking everything up to my sleep deprivation, no matter what I tell her.


----------



## Handy

* RMY
I tried the CPAP thing and was actually worse of with it. * 

Sorry RMY, your situation is a Bummer!!!


----------



## PigglyWiggly

Rocky, on average, you only have 35 years of life left. What do you see the next 35 years of your marriage looking like?


----------



## 269370

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I'm confident this has nothing to do with my declining libido. I don't even know how much my libido is or isn't declining since it's never put to the test. I did get a recent T check and it showed much higher than typical for a man of my age.
> 
> 
> 
> I have looked at my attitude long and hard. And I still hold out the possibility that this could all be in my head. In fact, I'd rather it was. That's something I can fix. I have fixed a number of very problematic things in myself by sheer force of will. It's a helluva lot easier than trying to fix someone else. But the more I think about it, the more that doesn't seem to be the case.
> 
> 
> 
> Much of what you say is pretty close to a mirror reflection of me, or at least who I was in the past. I would pour myself over her for hours if she'd let me. As it is I'd pour myself over her for 30-45 minutes and relish every last second of it if I was getting any inclination whatsoever that she was enjoying it. She's not demonstrative and I've learned to live with that. I've never expected the kind of "performance" that you seem to be talking about.
> 
> 
> 
> When you say I have a hard time with the HJs because it seems like a chore for her being all in my head, you haven't been in the room at the time to see the aimless glancing around the room, the utter look of indifference on her face, etc. But you're right, the taking longer is not her fault (did I say it was?). It takes longer because I'm 53 years old. When we first started having sex, I busted my ass to train myself to last longer, so I could extend her pleasure. I think I was _too _effective in that. Add my advancing years and that's now a bad combo.
> 
> 
> 
> Watching porn together is a non-starter. We actually did that once in our 20s. She was aroused. But despite her response, she still finds it repugnant, so it's not gonna happen. I have talked dirty to her (not vulgar, but suggestive and definitely horny) in the past. It seemed to improve her mood, but no corresponding effect on actual sex. She is open to, and enjoys such things, even if she's not going to respond.
> 
> 
> 
> As for suggesting other things, I'm well over the fear of rejection. But that remains a two edged sword. While she likes the attention and reinforcement of her desirability, she also thinks some of my suggestions are disturbing (they're actually really quite mild compared to what most of the people on this site do on a regular basis). She wonders why I can't be happy with just the vanilla--to her that's a form of rejection/adds to her feeling that she'll never be able to satisfy me.
> 
> 
> 
> As to your last statement, there's not really a black and white answer. When she turned 53, I told her she was even more beautiful to me than she was at 43, or 33, or even 23. And I meant it. I was utterly, completely sincere. She would complain of a wrinkle somewhere and I'd say "what wrinkle." And I meant it. I could not see physical imperfection anywhere on her. Intellectually, I could tell that an extra 20 years and three kids left her breasts less perky than before, but emotionally I couldn't see it. Her breasts were perfect, the only perfect pair in the world, because they were the only pair attached to her. I couldn't conceive of not seeing her as the goddess I must worship.
> 
> 
> 
> Then, when she told me how hard it was to have regular sex with me all those years, something snapped. The desire disappeared. Literally overnight. This wasn't the gradual lowering of libido associated with ageing, it was a purely mental function, pure and simple. And along with that destruction of desire, came full realization of every wrinkle, every grey hair, the nipples hanging down instead of pointing up and away. It was as if blinders had been removed and I could suddenly see the whole picture.
> 
> 
> 
> After that, she started getting handsy. Just laying in bed, she'd fondle my muscles or run her fingers through my chest hair. Rather than feeling elated, all I could think was "where the hell was this for the last 30 years! If you'd done this a little more even a few months ago, I'd still see you the way I have for three decades. You'd have a man demonstrating more desire than you thought imaginable. But your a day late and a dollar short on this one." I feel like the male version of the walk away wife who's just not going to get her mojo back after years of emotional neglect, no matter how much her husband has now seen the light. And even if I could, it wouldn't make much difference as her menopausal body can't close the deal anyway.




Yes, sorry, I didn’t mean it’s ‘all you’. But I thought it’s a combination of things. Like you say, the parts you CAN fix are to do with you. Much harder to fix someone else...And I’m trying to be practical with advice.

Given the last paragraph, it seems she can’t really win though; if she wants you now, it feels to you like “where have you been?”, if she doesn’t, you build up even more resentment. You have to try and forgive perhaps first, to move past this point? 

The bit about ‘training yourself to last longer’: you can do that, but up to a point, it doesn’t change the fact that when we get older, our desires/libidos change and they change quite a lot. It really would be foolish to assume we stay the same.

Everything you describe does sound kinda familiar (perhaps not to the extreme). See, someone else not always responding to your advances or finding something ‘vulgar’ would perceive it as ‘hard to get’ and there’s nothing really wrong with it. You get frustrated over this (fair enough), someone else would find it a ‘challenge’ or even ‘erotic’ that their wife is not easily seduced. It feels even more special when she does get seduced. Would you enjoy it if every time you touched her she would be like a cat on heat? (Ok, i know there is stuff in between).
These things are not black and white (sorry if I implied with my last post that they were).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I suspect it will grow into that. I'm going to start with me. I'm looking for a counselor that excels both in individual and couple therapy.
> 
> 
> 
> The thing is, I saw (at my wife's behest) behavioral psychologist who partners with MDs to find holistic (joint mind and body) solutions to outstanding medical issues. In recent months, my sleep apnea has really accelerated, and even before the apnea kicks in, I have great trouble getting to sleep in the first place. And then even with a late start, I wake up very early and I can't get back to sleep. I'm lucky to get 4 hrs of sleep a night, and because of the apnea, even that 4 hrs isn't quality sleep. Oh yeah, and my BP is skyrocketing.
> 
> 
> 
> So after discussing a variety of medical treatments and making plans for further discussion of mental issues contributing, I mentioned my newfound resentment. Without hesitation, he said "_you _need to see a marriage counselor." He knows full well that this will escalate into MC, as it should.




You can’t have the same counsellor for IC and MC (none of the counsellors in UK would take on both): the whole point is that your wife shouldn’t feel like the counsellor might be on your side or that you might be ‘prepping’ them in your sessions for couple sessions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I'm always up for a good PFM reference!
> 
> 
> 
> For the first time (and second) time in 31 years, she has been refused. Not that I had to actually say anything, it's just that there was no reaction to her fondling. I did tell her that I no longer feel the way I used to and it would manifest in my ability to be aroused.
> 
> 
> 
> But it couldn't have come at a worse time. With my apnea worsening, she's chalking everything up to my sleep deprivation, no matter what I tell her.




IMO this will drive the relationship more into the ground. By saying this and the refusing, you are showing her all the signs of an ageing male, loosing his libido. To an LD spouse, it might have the opposite effect you want.
What do you want to achieve with that? For her to try /!fondle you harder? In an ideal world, how do you see she can ‘redeem’ herself with you?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## john117

inmyprime said:


> IMO this will drive the relationship more into the ground. By saying this and the refusing, you are showing her all the signs of an ageing male, loosing his libido. To an LD spouse, it might have the opposite effect you want.
> What do you want to achieve with that? For her to try /!fondle you harder? In an ideal world, how do you see she can ‘redeem’ herself with you?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's the intent. 

The libido argument is bogus in my opinion. It's mind over matter that's important.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

PigglyWiggly said:


> Rocky, on average, you only have 35 years of life left. What do you see the next 35 years of your marriage looking like?


Well, we make pretty good roommates...


(I alternate between that thought and something a little rosier)


----------



## 269370

john117 said:


> That's the intent.
> 
> The libido argument is bogus in my opinion. It's mind over matter that's important.




It’s body over mind. Your body can actually feel the attraction is fading while your mind does not necessarily accept it. I’m not saying that’s the case with RMY but it’s worth looking at & observing yourself.
She is not refusing him. Your advice would be spot on if she was.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I suspect it will grow into that. I'm going to start with me. I'm looking for a counselor that excels both in individual and couple therapy.
> 
> 
> 
> The thing is, I saw (at my wife's behest) behavioral psychologist who partners with MDs to find holistic (joint mind and body) solutions to outstanding medical issues. In recent months, my sleep apnea has really accelerated, and even before the apnea kicks in, I have great trouble getting to sleep in the first place. And then even with a late start, I wake up very early and I can't get back to sleep. I'm lucky to get 4 hrs of sleep a night, and because of the apnea, even that 4 hrs isn't quality sleep. Oh yeah, and my BP is skyrocketing.
> 
> 
> 
> So after discussing a variety of medical treatments and making plans for further discussion of mental issues contributing, I mentioned my newfound resentment. Without hesitation, he said "_you _need to see a marriage counselor." He knows full well that this will escalate into MC, as it should.




Btw what’s the 15 minute timer for? Is she cooking a hard boiled egg at the same time or something? Her idea for a timer? What happens if you don’t finish in 15. It’s a decent chunk of time for HJ in any case.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

inmyprime said:


> Yes, sorry, I didn’t mean it’s ‘all you’. But I thought it’s a combination of things. Like you say, the parts you CAN fix are to do with you. Much harder to fix someone else...And I’m trying to be practical with advice.
> 
> Given the last paragraph, it seems she can’t really win though; if she wants you now, it feels to you like “where have you been?”, if she doesn’t, you build up even more resentment. You have to try and forgive perhaps first, to move past this point?
> 
> The bit about ‘training yourself to last longer’: you can do that, but up to a point, it doesn’t change the fact that when we get older, our desires/libidos change and they change quite a lot. It really would be foolish to assume we stay the same.
> 
> Everything you describe does sound kinda familiar (perhaps not to the extreme). See, someone else not always responding to your advances or finding something ‘vulgar’ would perceive it as ‘hard to get’ and there’s nothing really wrong with it. You get frustrated over this (fair enough), someone else would find it a ‘challenge’ or even ‘erotic’ that their wife is not easily seduced. It feels even more special when she does get seduced. Would you enjoy it if every time you touched her she would be like a cat on heat? (Ok, i know there is stuff in between).
> These things are not black and white (sorry if I implied with my last post that they were).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You're absolutely right. I've put her in so.ething of a no win scenario at this point. Although it's not quite as you describe. Her not trying at this point doesn't build up additional resentment. It's her waiting until after I snapped to try that adds to resentment. 

I'm good with the hard to get thing. In fact, I generally like challenges. Never liked easy girls. But were talking 30+ years here. She occasionally says things that give sparks of hope but then never follows through. This Charlie Brown has approached this football only to take a swing and have it pulled out one too many times. It seems the very definition of insanity to think future attempts might yield different results.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

inmyprime said:


> IMO this will drive the relationship more into the ground. By saying this and the refusing, you are showing her all the signs of an ageing male, loosing his libido. To an LD spouse, it might have the opposite effect you want.
> What do you want to achieve with that? For her to try /!fondle you harder? In an ideal world, how do you see she can ‘redeem’ herself with you?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


But this wasn't done deliberately as an attempt to have an effect. It was just my natural lack of response to someone I'm no longer attracted to. This is not part of some plan to "get what I want." This is me being beyond caring, which is actually much more dangerous even than attempts at manipulation.


It's not just sexual touching. I didn't realize it until she mentioned it, but I shrink away or just stiffen up when she touches me. Much like a woman might do in response to unwanted attention. It was a conscious thing. It was just in me.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

inmyprime said:


> Btw what’s the 15 minute timer for? Is she cooking a hard boiled egg at the same time or something? Her idea for a timer? What happens if you don’t finish in 15. It’s a decent chunk of time for HJ in any case.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm not sure and I didn't ask. 

I suspected she may have read that this was some kind of exercise to improve intimacy. I'm doubtful she would come up with such a thing on her own.

I chose to see it as a positive as she was completely invested for that amount of time. 

As you say, that should be plenty of time for a HJ. That it wasn't, did not detract from my appreciation.


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## NobodySpecial

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I'm confident this has nothing to do with my declining libido. I don't even know how much my libido is or isn't declining since it's never put to the test. I did get a recent T check and it showed much higher than typical for a man of my age.
> 
> I have looked at my attitude long and hard. And I still hold out the possibility that this could all be in my head. In fact, I'd rather it was. That's something I can fix. I have fixed a number of very problematic things in myself by sheer force of will. It's a helluva lot easier than trying to fix someone else. But the more I think about it, the more that doesn't seem to be the case.
> 
> Much of what you say is pretty close to a mirror reflection of me, or at least who I was in the past. I would pour myself over her for hours if she'd let me. As it is I'd pour myself over her for 30-45 minutes and relish every last second of it if I was getting any inclination whatsoever that she was enjoying it. She's not demonstrative and I've learned to live with that. I've never expected the kind of "performance" that you seem to be talking about.
> 
> When you say I have a hard time with the HJs because it seems like a chore for her being all in my head, you haven't been in the room at the time to see the aimless glancing around the room, the utter look of indifference on her face, etc. But you're right, the taking longer is not her fault (did I say it was?). It takes longer because I'm 53 years old. When we first started having sex, I busted my ass to train myself to last longer, so I could extend her pleasure. I think I was _too _effective in that. Add my advancing years and that's now a bad combo.
> 
> Watching porn together is a non-starter. We actually did that once in our 20s. She was aroused. But despite her response, she still finds it repugnant, so it's not gonna happen. I have talked dirty to her (not vulgar, but suggestive and definitely horny) in the past. It seemed to improve her mood, but no corresponding effect on actual sex. She is open to, and enjoys such things, even if she's not going to respond.
> 
> As for suggesting other things, I'm well over the fear of rejection. But that remains a two edged sword. While she likes the attention and reinforcement of her desirability, she also thinks some of my suggestions are disturbing (they're actually really quite mild compared to what most of the people on this site do on a regular basis). She wonders why I can't be happy with just the vanilla--to her that's a form of rejection/adds to her feeling that she'll never be able to satisfy me.
> 
> As to your last statement, there's not really a black and white answer. When she turned 53, I told her she was even more beautiful to me than she was at 43, or 33, or even 23. And I meant it. I was utterly, completely sincere. She would complain of a wrinkle somewhere and I'd say "what wrinkle." And I meant it. I could not see physical imperfection anywhere on her. Intellectually, I could tell that an extra 20 years and three kids left her breasts less perky than before, but emotionally I couldn't see it. Her breasts were perfect, the only perfect pair in the world, because they were the only pair attached to her. I couldn't conceive of not seeing her as the goddess I must worship.
> 
> Then, when she told me how hard it was to have regular sex with me all those years, something snapped. The desire disappeared. Literally overnight. This wasn't the gradual lowering of libido associated with ageing, it was a purely mental function, pure and simple. And along with that destruction of desire, came full realization of every wrinkle, every grey hair, the nipples hanging down instead of pointing up and away. It was as if blinders had been removed and I could suddenly see the whole picture.
> 
> After that, she started getting handsy. Just laying in bed, she'd fondle my muscles or run her fingers through my chest hair. Rather than feeling elated, all I could think was "where the hell was this for the last 30 years! If you'd done this a little more even a few months ago, I'd still see you the way I have for three decades. You'd have a man demonstrating more desire than you thought imaginable. But your a day late and a dollar short on this one." I feel like the male version of the walk away wife who's just not going to get her mojo back after years of emotional neglect, no matter how much her husband has now seen the light. And even if I could, it wouldn't make much difference as her menopausal body can't close the deal anyway.


 I Got Nothing. I am so sorry.


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## Personal

.


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## Personal

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## Personal

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## Personal

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## 269370

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> It was just my natural lack of response to someone I'm no longer attracted to.



So here you said it “no longer attracted to”.
It is possible the lack of attraction is due to bad quality sex in the past (that does happen with younger guys too) but it could also be that your attraction/libido is generally ‘mellowing’ and your mind is searching for a reason, retrospectively. Maybe I’m wrong.

I do find it so strange that a website about marriage tends to gravitate towards divorce / leaving her / imagine your life with someone else etc when someone’s simply venting. It’s really crazy.

I would not imagine in a million years leaving my wife or be with anybody else if her attention was wandering during HJ or if she sometimes wasn’t that into it. I don’t mean to minimise your frustrations but you spent a whole life with this woman, built memories together, have kids together (presumably), know / trust each other and you give up / are contemplating a life with someone else before even seeing a marriage counsellor together. And people are cheering you on and pat each other on the back. That’s why everyone has such happy relationships here I guess. I’m sure some do and found the best mix between what they get and what they are able to tolerate. In the end, I’m sure you know best yourself what is good for you and what you are willing to give up / trade off. 
It will be interesting to hear what your marriage counsellor comes up with and whether it’s going to be anything remotely similar to the advice you are getting here.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Again, the loss of attraction was ver much an instantaneous thing. Not at all associated with aging. At age 53, I was every bit as much into her as ever. At age 53 plus one day, flatlined. 

Theres clearly a lot I don't know, even about my self. But trust me, I totally got this one.

I'm much like you though. Tzsong aside three decades and all the wondrous things that were a part of that isn't a viable option. I can see the rationale behind it though, even on a "marriage site." If the ultimate goal is to create a great marriage, and everything I've shared points to that not being possible with this particular spouse, from a purely logical standpoint, it makes sense to chuck this one and move on.


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## MEM2020

Imp,

Some of your posts are quite good. Sadly the one below goes into an entirely different bucket. 





inmyprime said:


> So here you said it “no longer attracted to”.
> It is possible the lack of attraction is due to bad quality sex in the past (that does happen with younger guys too) but it could also be that your attraction/libido is generally ‘mellowing’ and your mind is searching for a reason, retrospectively. Maybe I’m wrong.
> 
> I do find it so strange that a website about marriage tends to gravitate towards divorce / leaving her / imagine your life with someone else etc when someone’s simply venting. It’s really crazy.
> 
> I would not imagine in a million years leaving my wife or be with anybody else if her attention was wandering during HJ or if she sometimes wasn’t that into it. I don’t mean to minimise your frustrations but you spent a whole life with this woman, built memories together, have kids together (presumably), know / trust each other and you give up / are contemplating a life with someone else before even seeing a marriage counsellor together. And people are cheering you on and pat each other on the back. That’s why everyone has such happy relationships here I guess. I’m sure some do and found the best mix between what they get and what they are able to tolerate. In the end, I’m sure you know best yourself what is good for you and what you are willing to give up / trade off.
> It will be interesting to hear what your marriage counsellor comes up with and whether it’s going to be anything remotely similar to the advice you are getting here.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370

MEM2020 said:


> Imp,
> 
> 
> 
> Some of your posts are quite good. Sadly the one below goes into an entirely different bucket.



That’s ok. Fortunately, we don’t all have to conform to the same buckets.
Perhaps if you care to mention which part of the bucket I let you down with, I could clarify it.
Otherwise the ‘your post is crap’ with no reasons given will not give me a lot to learn from, for the future. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Again, the loss of attraction was ver much an instantaneous thing. Not at all associated with aging. At age 53, I was every bit as much into her as ever. At age 53 plus one day, flatlined.
> 
> 
> 
> Theres clearly a lot I don't know, even about my self. But trust me, I totally got this one.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm much like you though. Tzsong aside three decades and all the wondrous things that were a part of that isn't a viable option. I can see the rationale behind it though, even on a "marriage site." If the ultimate goal is to create a great marriage, and everything I've shared points to that not being possible with this particular spouse, from a purely logical standpoint, it makes sense to chuck this one and move on.



You need to first be clear what precisely your definition of a ‘great marriage’ is, before you apply ‘logic’ to chuck it.

If you boil down the definition of a great marriage to a ‘fully engaged HJ’, every time, then yes, your marriage failed.

Can you name 8 main (positive) attributes, you choose your wife in the first place for?

I know I sometimes make fun of religions, but Christians have got this part pretty much nailed down IMO: there is never enough opportunity, to remember the things one should be grateful for. If she made you that miserable, you would have exited in the first few years of your marriage. What changed? 
Apparently, she became more forthcoming and understanding in recent years towards you, from your description. This made you more resentful because you realised that you should have had it all along. 

I really wasn’t joking about a possible man-oh-pause.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MEM2020

Rocky,
Intercourse started becoming painful for M2 about 10 years ago. She went to the doctors, even a specialist. After 4 years of intermittent pain, it got worse and the inflammation issues began to prevent other pleasurable activities such a bicycling. 

M2 offered me her resignation, told me: that since I loved sex, and was young and healthy, it would be better for me to move on. 

I replied that being well past the legal age of maturity and capable of determining my own priorities, I was firmly and permanently declining her resignation. Now and then in the past 6 years or so she thanks me for being patient and I emphasize the difference between patience and acceptance. 

Anyway - turns out that olive oil allows a hand to make quite a nice tunnel while the second hand plays balls. To me the difference between the olive oil hj and a non lubricated hj, is the difference between a 9 and a 5. She lies on her back and holds her hand in place - I control the pacing. 





Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Again, the loss of attraction was ver much an instantaneous thing. Not at all associated with aging. At age 53, I was every bit as much into her as ever. At age 53 plus one day, flatlined.
> 
> Theres clearly a lot I don't know, even about my self. But trust me, I totally got this one.
> 
> I'm much like you though. Tzsong aside three decades and all the wondrous things that were a part of that isn't a viable option. I can see the rationale behind it though, even on a "marriage site." If the ultimate goal is to create a great marriage, and everything I've shared points to that not being possible with this particular spouse, from a purely logical standpoint, it makes sense to chuck this one and move on.


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## john117

inmyprime said:


> It’s body over mind. Your body can actually feel the attraction is fading while your mind does not necessarily accept it. I’m not saying that’s the case with RMY but it’s worth looking at & observing yourself.
> She is not refusing him. Your advice would be spot on if she was.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Truth be told, there's no root cause yet. Lacking that, it's wild guessing. Let's see:

- currently as I understand it, no interest and very limited repertoire. Rule out physical issues first.

- look back into snapshots of the relationship 5 years ago, 10, 15. Think physical ability vs attitude vs actual performance.

- deep dive into FOO information, attitudes, behaviors, beliefs....

It's mind over body any time, physical show stoppers nonwithstanding. Attraction in this stage of life is the least of their concerns. Willingness is the name of the game. Am I attracted to the lawnmower? No. I still mow the lawn. 

Rocky has to figure out if he's being fed the party line.


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## MEM2020

John,
What you say is bidirectionally true. The golden rule is the same going as it is coming. 

I pushed us down the hj path because it didn’t take a lot of imagination to figure out what oral to completion likely felt like to a partner who wasn’t all that turned on. 






john117 said:


> Truth be told, there's no root cause yet. Lacking that, it's wild guessing. Let's see:
> 
> - currently as I understand it, no interest and very limited repertoire. Rule out physical issues first.
> 
> - look back into snapshots of the relationship 5 years ago, 10, 15. Think physical ability vs attitude vs actual performance.
> 
> - deep dive into FOO information, attitudes, behaviors, beliefs....
> 
> It's mind over body any time, physical show stoppers nonwithstanding. Attraction in this stage of life is the least of their concerns. Willingness is the name of the game. Am I attracted to the lawnmower? No. I still mow the lawn.
> 
> Rocky has to figure out if he's being fed the party line.


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## oldshirt

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Which says that your magic formula isn't so magic after all. You have a history of moving on. Every relationship you've had where "every woman" has met your demands, has ended (Except the current one of course, but given that all the others have ended, to expect this one to be any different would be odd).
> 
> So apparently your own formula isn't sustainable.
> 
> Now to be clear, that wasn't condescension. I'm not making any assertions that you're wrong for cycling through chicks. I'm just pointing out that it's not the universal hotbed of goodness you claim it to be. If it was, you'd still be together with your first (or your second, or your third, and so on).



I think I understand what you are getting at and you do have something of a point. 

But I think what some of this boils down to is you can value a single person's companionship and company. Or you can value a vigorous and active sex life. But the two are often not going to occur together for multiple decades for most people. 

Many of these guys that go years and years of sexless marriage but refuse to leave or take any definitive action that may upset their W value the concept of marriage and value the social structure and expectation and value trying to remain with a single person for life more than they value a healthy sexual existence. 

They may say they are horny and that they want to have sex, but they truly do not value it. 

Conversely, people like Blues who value an active and vigorous sexlife, are often going to stop dating someone when the sexual chemistry isn't there and/or are going to exit stage-left if/when the sex turns south. 

Each perspective is going to make sacrifices. If you value to-death-do-us-part and value remaining with one single person for the rest of your days, you are sacrifice your sexuality if that person decides they no longer wish to have sex with you or if they simply suck in bed. 

And the person who values a vigorous sex life is likely to go through a number of relationships and a number of break ups/divorces over the course of their life. 

A woman getting involved with someone like Blues is going to know pretty quickly that either she either be sexually available/responsive or she will be left along the side of the road before too long if she isn't. 

And a woman who gets involved with someone who truly doesn't value sexuality to the degree that they will leave someone for it knows that she can get fat and lazy and can keep him around for chores and errands and to be a provider and she knows his value system won't allow him to dump her in pursuit of someone more sexually responsive. 

People do whatever causes them less pain and angst. 

For some people living a sexless life will cause more pain and angst than leaving a partner and obtaining a new one(s). Those people rarely live a sexless life (or at least not for long) but they do experience more break ups and divorces over time as a group. 

And for other people breaking up/divorcing is cause of greater pain and angst and fear and so they continue to live a sexless life.


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## oldshirt

oldshirt said:


> I think I understand what you are getting at and you do have something of a point.
> 
> But I think what some of this boils down to is you can value a single person's companionship and company. Or you can value a vigorous and active sex life. But the two are often not going to occur together for multiple decades for most people.
> 
> Many of these guys that go years and years of sexless marriage but refuse to leave or take any definitive action that may upset their W value the concept of marriage and value the social structure and expectation and value trying to remain with a single person for life more than they value a healthy sexual existence.
> 
> They may say they are horny and that they want to have sex, but they truly do not value it.
> 
> Conversely, people like Blues who value an active and vigorous sexlife, are often going to stop dating someone when the sexual chemistry isn't there and/or are going to exit stage-left if/when the sex turns south.
> 
> Each perspective is going to make sacrifices. If you value to-death-do-us-part and value remaining with one single person for the rest of your days, you are sacrifice your sexuality if that person decides they no longer wish to have sex with you or if they simply suck in bed.
> 
> And the person who values a vigorous sex life is likely to go through a number of relationships and a number of break ups/divorces over the course of their life.
> 
> A woman getting involved with someone like Blues is going to know pretty quickly that either she either be sexually available/responsive or she will be left along the side of the road before too long if she isn't.
> 
> And a woman who gets involved with someone who truly doesn't value sexuality to the degree that they will leave someone for it knows that she can get fat and lazy and can keep him around for chores and errands and to be a provider and she knows his value system won't allow him to dump her in pursuit of someone more sexually responsive.
> 
> People do whatever causes them less pain and angst.
> 
> For some people living a sexless life will cause more pain and angst than leaving a partner and obtaining a new one(s). Those people rarely live a sexless life (or at least not for long) but they do experience more break ups and divorces over time as a group.
> 
> And for other people breaking up/divorcing is cause of greater pain and angst and fear and so they continue to live a sexless life.


So I guess it kind of comes down to what your measuring stick of relationship success is? Longevity or quantity and quality of sexuality?


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## john117

oldshirt said:


> So I guess it kind of comes down to what your measuring stick of relationship success is? Longevity or quantity and quality of sexuality?


Property settlement


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## MEM2020

Generally agree with this. 

As in all situations, statistics apply. Meaning that a small fraction of the population gets both excellent companionship and excellent sexual connection for most of the marriage. 

Forced to choose - I’ll take a (companionship-sexual relationship) 9-5 over a 5-9 any day. When younger it was more like a 7-7.






oldshirt said:


> I think I understand what you are getting at and you do have something of a point.
> 
> But I think what some of this boils down to is you can value a single person's companionship and company. Or you can value a vigorous and active sex life. But the two are often not going to occur together for multiple decades for most people.
> 
> Many of these guys that go years and years of sexless marriage but refuse to leave or take any definitive action that may upset their W value the concept of marriage and value the social structure and expectation and value trying to remain with a single person for life more than they value a healthy sexual existence.
> 
> They may say they are horny and that they want to have sex, but they truly do not value it.
> 
> Conversely, people like Blues who value an active and vigorous sexlife, are often going to stop dating someone when the sexual chemistry isn't there and/or are going to exit stage-left if/when the sex turns south.
> 
> Each perspective is going to make sacrifices. If you value to-death-do-us-part and value remaining with one single person for the rest of your days, you are sacrifice your sexuality if that person decides they no longer wish to have sex with you or if they simply suck in bed.
> 
> And the person who values a vigorous sex life is likely to go through a number of relationships and a number of break ups/divorces over the course of their life.
> 
> A woman getting involved with someone like Blues is going to know pretty quickly that either she either be sexually available/responsive or she will be left along the side of the road before too long if she isn't.
> 
> And a woman who gets involved with someone who truly doesn't value sexuality to the degree that they will leave someone for it knows that she can get fat and lazy and can keep him around for chores and errands and to be a provider and she knows his value system won't allow him to dump her in pursuit of someone more sexually responsive.
> 
> People do whatever causes them less pain and angst.
> 
> For some people living a sexless life will cause more pain and angst than leaving a partner and obtaining a new one(s). Those people rarely live a sexless life (or at least not for long) but they do experience more break ups and divorces over time as a group.
> 
> And for other people breaking up/divorcing is cause of greater pain and angst and fear and so they continue to live a sexless life.


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## Personal

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Despite being risk averse and nonconfrontational, my wife is amazingly strong willed. This is one of the things that drew me to her long term.


My wife who is educated, accomplished, a leader in her chosen profession and is also amazingly strong willed. Except she doesn't shy away from confrontation (though she doesn't look for it), if she feels it is necessary.



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I never liked the truly submissive women I dated. I'm not submissive myself and I'm not looking to be dominated, but I like someone who has a mind of her own and who will keep me on my own toes. This may be a case of "Be careful what you ask for...."


As am I, and as I like as well.

Although I lead sexually with my wife, she isn't really submissive. It's more a case of I am a dominant personality and she is a dominant personality and as an equal she feels safe to enjoy yielding ground to me in the bedroom.



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> You have no idea all the ways I've adapted strictly for her benefit with no thought to benefit to me. It doesn't seem too much to ask her to be willing to adapt in a way th as t benefits her as well as me.


If your wife is as strong as you assert then your adaption for her benefit at your expense is likely not to have done you or your relationship any favours.

The following quotes from *Qoura* describe my wife extraordinarily well.

If any of that is similar to your wife at all, now that the blinders are coming off. You might consider what I am sharing with you more closely.



> I once had a BF who would always defer to what I wanted. I had to make every choice. Every decision. It was frustrating….. and it was tediously boring!! I was never challenged. I was never pushed outside my comfort zone. I was never surprised. I was never provided an opportunity to grow.
> 
> It was stifling and suffocating.
> 
> I felt solely responsible for everything and I don’t like feeling responsible for someone else’s happiness and life choices.
> 
> I can’t speak on behalf of any other INTJ women, but personally, I want someone who can stand on their own two feet and meet me intellectually. I don’t want some lap-dog or pushover who does what I say without question. If you are not strong enough to stand up for yourself, how will you ever be strong enough to stand up for me?
> 
> If you want to please me, don’t please me by folding to my every command. Please me by showing me you are independent enough to live without me, but choose to be with me. Please me by showing me you’re capable of independent, critical thinking and strong enough to stand by your convictions.
> 
> While I will have my own ideas on how things should be, I respect someone who also has their own ideas and is willing to explore these and reach a compromise we can both be happy with.
> 
> Someone who lays down and lets me walk over them does not have my respect - and if you can’t win my respect, you will never win my heart.





> We violate gender expectations - all of them: we aren’t emotional relaters; we aren’t especially touchy, feel-y creatures; we don’t live for socializing and gossip mongering; we are drama averse; discussing our feelings is torture; we hate small talk and will call bullsh*t openly - with or without a smile - and submissive? What the **** is that?!
> 
> We won’t engage in emotional or illogical arguments: therefore there are very few arguments, period; we really like negotiations - bring it (along with your A-game)! However, please know, we won’t be baited, and can smell a set-up a mile away; zero tolerance for screaming; if you try it, you’ll be left in the room to hash it out alone; we’re going off to “turtle” until we feel safe again.
> 
> Pragmatism, practicality, efficiency and effectiveness: these rule our decision-making; we don’t really understand anything else; engage with us from this perspective, and we’ll always be on the same playing field.
> 
> We must have complete equality and shared power: we are natural leaders, but detest making all the decisions; we prize our independence, but like it a lot when someone else takes care of the details; we have our metaphorical sh*t together, and expect the same in a mate; and, in relationships we must call the shots as equals, co-pilot to co-pilot.
> 
> We seek intellectual and emotional compatibility and acceptance above all else: we want somebody that we respect, and who respects us in return; a partner that will challenge us, enjoy an informed debate with us, *stand his/her ground with us* (super important!), but who also completely and totally accepts us for who we are, just the way that we are.





> Any man who is going to catch my attention long enough (and put up with my odd traits) is probably going to be more of an ‘alpha’ type already. That doesn’t mean some sort of vain, aggressive ‘gym-bro’, but my ideal man is a guy with a quiet, internal strength and sense of character. A man who knows his worth without having to state it or flaunt it, who knows at least roughly where he’s going in life. Someone who isn’t dating to impress his friends or needs his girl around constantly. Preferably an introvert man who understands the struggles and also values his own private time, private life, etc.
> 
> I think because of this we can make really fantastic wives and mothers for the men who can get past our initial weirdness and accept our introverted traits and need for constant mental stimulation.





> Of all the men I have been attracted to, one characteristic stands out; they don’t *let* me be in charge all the time. That’s important because, if you read the profile carefully, INTJ’s will only take charge if a clear lack of leadership exists. We seldom want to be calling all the shots.
> 
> HOWEVER, that’s tough to do because we do things our own way for a reason so every other possible way must be wrong. This means I can date you if you will take charge while still letting me do things my own way. I know that sounds contradictory. It probably is. But that’s how it goes.
> 
> The men who have managed to outlast my boredom threshold (2 months) were intelligent, challenging, somewhat arrogant and not timid about asserting themselves when necessary. Lapdogs & doormats need not apply.
> 
> Here is how it ends. The very second you start to believe you’re not good enough for me, it becomes true. I will see it on your face. I will feel it in my guts. I will witness your confidence wither right in front of me. I will stop respecting you and you will definitely know when that happens. I will be sad. Because up to that point, I probably had real feelings for you.





> Difficult for most who are interested in an INTJ. For me, the guy will have to walk a tightrope. Let me control the relationship too much, and I begin to wonder why you are in my life. (And I will try to control the relationship, fair warning.) Try to control me too much, and I will cut my losses and leave. Period. I expect an equal; equally smart, equally capable, equally responsible.
> 
> It’s a challenge, as INTJ women need less intimacy than most. You have to be more interesting than my internal thinking.





> An INTJ female will be hard to get but totally worth the effort. We may appear cold and act disinterested at first, and it will take a while to earn our trust (INTJs are naturally skeptical and guarded). But we are fiercely loyal once we get to know and trust you. Our rational and practical nature makes us pretty low maintenance and drama free, and independence is definitely a two way street to us (the only time we’ll text you asking when youre coming home is when you’re bringing the take out and we’re starving ).
> 
> On the flip side, we’re going to speak our minds and often be blunt about it, and that independent streak might start to feel threatening at some point. If you’re a man who needs a woman with stereotypically traditional feminine traits (dependence, submissiveness, drama, etc.) to feel secure in a relationship, take my advice and take a pass.


----------



## Personal

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> But Personal's post seemed very cookie cutter, based on false assumptions or flat out overlooking or disregard of key elements I had previously posted. Now Personal has no obligation to try to give tailored advice, but when it's not, I'm going to clarify. And that's all I was doing. Not trying to be combative as you perceived. Just letting him know where he missed the mark. He can agree or not, continue the discussion or not, completely up to him. By contrast, look at my discussion with Piggly. Now if I was predisposed to get combative with anyone, it would be Piggly as we have sparred fiercely on the Politics board. If there's anyone I should harbor a confrontational attitude going in with, it would be Piggly. And Piggly's first response did miss a few things, to which I responded much like I did to Personal's. Piggly took the response as intended and brought more tailored responses which have been very insightful. Again, nobody here has any obligation to do any such thing, so I don't expect it, but I do very much appreciate it when it comes, and I say so, or at least give a "like" so the poster knows I have read, understood, and am taking it to heart.


I have no problem with you not agreeing with what I say. Just as you feel I am overlooking things or making false assumptions, I feel you are mistaken and not understanding that I am not doing that at all.

One thing though I am certainly not offering a cookie cutter approach at all. If I were doing that I would say, you ought to divorce your wife, which is an easier out since.

You have tried so many things, except what I am driving at. Which is not about details or the mechanics of some selfish office sex, it is about a mindset that is different.

If only you were more willing to suspend some of your incredulity, you might see what I am offering.

My wife has read plenty of your posts, and is convinced she would be like your wife sexually if she were with you. And that in her brief sexual experience with another man, she was headed exactly that way with him.

Men like that wouldn't really see her, they wouldn't allow her the safety of knowing that they love her as she is rather than a fantasy.

She fears that men like that would presume things about her. not affording her the dignity of being able to consent or deny consent. Since they presume she would say no, so they wouldn't bring it up. To be that way is to deny her.

The mindset that tells ones wife that they are more beautiful as they age or that they are or have always been perfect, tells my wife that they don't see really see her. That they are seeing what they want to see, rather than seeing her honestly.

She can't get sexually excited by a man who he feels the need to adapt to her at his own expense.


----------



## Personal

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Yep. You've got the right formula right there... for your wife. Every woman is different and not every woman will react to your approach the way your wife has.


From the age of 17 through to 21, I only had one sexual partner, we were each others firsts for going all the way. She also became my first wife. She and I from the very beginning were sexual dynamos with virtually nothing being off-limits.

Then after her through till just before I turned 25, I had been with plenty of other women who were my sexual partners, inclusive of my third longest lasting (living together) sexual relationship.

Having intimate experience with plenty of women, I am very cognisant that all women are different and that all of my ongoing sexual relationships have had significantly different relationship dynamics. Albeit with frequent enthusiastic sex being had in them.

As to my wife she waited until she was nearly 26 years old before she had sex with anyone. How is that for a significant lack of wanton visceral sexual desire?

Then despite finally pulling that trigger with someone else, not long before she and I started dating. She had never taken a mans penis in her mouth. Never orgasmed with anyone and had started faking it with the man she was with (because he told her she was having an orgasm. She had also hardly ever masturbated her whole life and like a good Catholic girl had issues with masturbation and pornography. While she only slept in pyjamas and the only time she would ever be naked was to have a shower.

Plus until just before me, she had been saving herself up for marriage, despite not lacking for male suitors, boyfriends and some marriage proposals.

I remember one time way back when with my then now wife, that while feeling embarrassed (paraphrasing)she told me she'd never had a mans penis in her mouth and she was very nervous about it. In response I told her that it's okay, you're going to to get lots of practice. She just told me that, my being matter of fact about it, not making it a big deal and not reinforcing her fear by telling her she'll do it a lot more is what she needed to here in order to be able to go there.

She has told me what set me apart was I was the only man who didn't tell her what they thought she wanted to hear, didn't blow smoke up her. Treated her as an equal instead of (paraphrasing for this bit with your words) "adapting to her strictly for her benefit" at my own expense.

She has said I saw her and see her, instead of seeing what I want and wanted to see. She loathes the idea of being worshipped or put on a pedestal, because she cannot live up to an illusion, which denies her real being.

My wife was not some sexual dynamo when she asked me to have sex with her that first time, and for a time afterwards. She was terribly clumsy, awkward, inexperienced, vanilla and had lots of sexual hangups. Yet I have taken her with me on an ongoing ever evolving and growing sexual relationship journey, because I wasn't willing to sacrifice my own desires for her to be with her.

If I didn't challenge her, if I didn't acknowledge her real self, if I presumed her sexual mores rather than offering opportunity, if I didn't give her a chance, if I instead worshipped her and if I sacrificed my desires for what I thought she was like. My wife and I would probably only be occasionally sharing infrequent going through the motions missionary sex from time to time today (presuming we would even still be together).

I love my wife incredibly, yet I see her. I see her foibles, her flaws, her ageing and I acknowledge all of that. So I do not deny her being, by worshiping an illusion. I honour her real self by not worshipping her.

Silly things like "do I look good in that" or "do I look fat” are always answered in the affirmative without hesitation, when the answer to those questions are honestly yes.

Yet I love her and I tell her I love her and I tell her what I love about her. And she draws comfort and empowerment and acknowledgement from the fact, that I love her honestly and am not in love with an idealised version of her which is not loving her as she actually is.

By doing that and other things, like knowing her raw, it has afforded us an ongoing level of intimacy, that is far deeper than many (probably even most) people will ever experience.

Although you are dismissive, it really is no accident I have always enjoyed a tremendous sex life.



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Well, the key word there is "only." You're quite right I do want her for sex, and she knows that as well. But not only sex. No matter how much your macho ego thinks that a cool thing to say, it's not for us. Never has been. Never will be.


Macho... sigh.

You really would do well to give your wife the benefit of the doubt, accept her autonomy and not presume she will act in a certain way, when you don't go there. You have changed through experienced and the passage of time as has your wife.

Unless you have actually simply said "yes" to your wife, you cannot know if saying that is not cool for her, never has been or never will be. You may well balk at the idea, yet it is arrogant to presume your wife would or always will.

The saying "yes" when hearing "only" doesn't deny that you desire your wife for more than just sex. Sometimes it's okay not to be so literal. It is one thing to tell a first date, you only want them for sex versus saying "yes" to such a question, from the woman who you have shared a life with where sex isn't all.



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Oh, yes, there is something very wrong with that in our case. Again, good for you that you've identified that as a positive dynamic in your relationship. It's not universal.


There was a time my wife would be horrified at such statements that you think are very wrong. Yet given time we both found out that she had changed her mind, in part as a consequence of my not presuming her response.



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Hardly. Even if we're talking "raw and emotional," finding out what trips that raw, emotional switch is important. Even if you find out a long list of things that don't trip that switch, you know more than you did before. But the key here is not even what you do or don't learn. My point was that we could enjoy the naked time together, even without "goals."


Yet again you're talking lists.

While ever you keep talking lists, knowing more and trying to convince me that we could enjoy enjoy it even without goals. I will not be turned on sexually, I will not warm to the idea, I will not feel visceral excitement at an exercise of process.

If you want to trip my switches, I need you to be my equal and desire me for selfish reasons and with much love. I need you to want me selfishly, so I can feel safe to want you selfishly with much love.



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> You've confused cause and effect here. The lack of initiation didn't bring about low frequency, rather the lack of frequency over years of frequent and passionate initiation ultimately led to the lack of initiation. Of all the places you're experience is not applicable to my situation, this one is foremost. Our frequency has actually increased since I've stopped coming at her with all my desire and passion.


No I haven't confused it at all.



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> And trying to "take what I want" would be exactly that in our case: tilting at windmills.


I don't take anything from my wife, that she doesn't want to share with me. My wife doesn't take anything from me, that I don't want her to have.

If I only did what I did in the office yesterday, we would not be having frequent sex. Yet doing things like that help our sexual relationship.



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Never have or even considered it... It was a genuine, and very necessary, step toward self preservation. I never intended it as a "game" or any other ulterior motive driven action.


I was referring to the suggestions as has been proffered as advice that you withdrawal yourself, not your actions or behaviours.

In my experience most people who come to these forums, have situations that cannot be overcome.

In this instance I think you and your wife are some of the lucky ones, and you can both resolve this positively going forward while remaining together if that is what you both want.

Which is why I have been trying to encourage you to think differently.



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I am not a rapist.


Nor am I.

My wife said you are wrong and that I had her enthusiastic consent. If I didn't have her consent, she would have said "not now" just as she always does when she doesn't feel like sex at the time. She also said if that was the only way we had sex, we would no longer be sharing sex together. Yet she loves that we do that kind of thing when we do it.


----------



## Personal

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> When she turned 53, I told her she was even more beautiful to me than she was at 43, or 33, or even 23. And I meant it. I was utterly, completely sincere. She would complain of a wrinkle somewhere and I'd say "what wrinkle." And I meant it. I could not see physical imperfection anywhere on her. Intellectually, I could tell that an extra 20 years and three kids left her breasts less perky than before, but emotionally I couldn't see it. Her breasts were perfect, the only perfect pair in the world, because they were the only pair attached to her. I couldn't conceive of not seeing her as the goddess I must worship.


How does one meet such expectations? How does one feel about themselves knowing that the one they love doesn't really see them.

I don't doubt that you believed that of her, just as I don't doubt that you convinced yourself that she was perfect.

But no-one is perfect.

She tries to tell you, she tries to get you to see her, she tries to...

Yet you deny her, her truth. And tell her you don't see what is so starkly evident.

You have been together so long. Isn't it time you afford her the dignity of not being perfect? While affording her the dignity of acknowledging that you see her honestly (because knowing it intellectually tells the lie).

It is okay to love her and stand your ground, it is okay to love her and not adjust to and accommodate her every want.



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Then, when she told me how hard it was to have regular sex with me all those years, something snapped. The desire disappeared. Literally overnight. This wasn't the gradual lowering of libido associated with ageing, it was a purely mental function, pure and simple. And along with that destruction of desire, came full realization of every wrinkle, every grey hair, the nipples hanging down instead of pointing up and away. It was as if blinders had been removed and I could suddenly see the whole picture.
> 
> After that, she started getting handsy. Just laying in bed, she'd fondle my muscles or run her fingers through my chest hair. Rather than feeling elated, all I could think was "where the hell was this for the last 30 years! If you'd done this a little more even a few months ago, I'd still see you the way I have for three decades. You'd have a man demonstrating more desire than you thought imaginable. But your a day late and a dollar short on this one." I feel like the male version of the walk away wife who's just not going to get her mojo back after years of emotional neglect, no matter how much her husband has now seen the light. And even if I could, it wouldn't make much difference as her menopausal body can't close the deal anyway.


The Horror.

Here is another way of looking at it, now that the blinders are coming off. If you still love your wife, she has an opportunity to be loved and seen as she is. Rather than being loved as an ideal that you have nurtured in your own head.

You have done this to each other. All of this being close and living lives intimately, while not really seeing each other.

Where you see waste, I see opportunity in this.

If she did this months earlier or even years earlier. You would have remained in love with your self generated illusion of her. Such that any intimacy that you have, is built upon a lie that you have told yourself.

Whereas now that you are starting to see her for all of her faults, and she shows that she wants you. You both have an opportunity to nurture an authentic intimacy that allows her to be who she really is rather than a goddess of your own pretence.

If you only loved that illusion of her that you made, it is likely that you never really loved her.

If you really love her, I wish you could really see her and love what is real.

If that is a bridge too far for you, the nicest thing you could do would be to tell her that you are done.


----------



## john117

Pity I did not have this thread handy in my teaching days. Best example of the availability heuristic ever.

Just because your partner responds in a specific way to a specific stimulus does not imply the stimulus and response will be applicable to all or even most conditions. 

There are population norms and typical values, based on age, racial or ethnic group, marital status, relationship length, socioeconomic conditions, health, time available.... You can't extrapolate from your own personal experience to someone else's reality. And this is before personality characteristics and relationship dynamics get into the picture.


----------



## john117

"Whereas now that you are starting to see her for all of her faults, and she shows that she wants you. You both have an opportunity to nurture an authentic intimacy that allows her to be who she really is rather than a goddess of your own pretence."


After Mrs Rocky strung our friend Rocky along for decades with intimacy carefully doled out with an eye dropper, while physically and mentally she should have been at the top of her game, and furthermore while she got her money's worth out of the relationship, and after Rocky got out of bed one day and saw thru the illusion, and after she freaked out grande, and after she started worrying he's bolting, NOW is the time to love her for what she is?

Human relationships are INTEGRATIVE, encompassing the gamut of one's experiences within the relationship, constantly adding the delta vee to the running total. What's proposed here is the professional sports variant of WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR ME LATELY... a slightly different approach. 

This isn't about the Mrs Rocky of 2018, but rather, the sum of their experiences from 1988 to 1998 to 2008 to 2018.


----------



## MEM2020

In my experience the combination of extreme transparency and determination with the absence of fear works exceptionally well with most people. 

M2 and I had both had a couple dozen partners before we met. Early on she was definitely more transparent with me than I was with her. On the bright side, everything she told me - I thanked her for and it was obvious that I meant it. 

The momma cat pick up and carry move - has a human analog. I’ve done it and had it done to me. The kitten doesn’t cooperate out of fear. They relax and go with the flow out of trust. 





Personal said:


> From the age of 17 through to 21, I only had one sexual partner, we were each others firsts for going all the way. She also became my first wife. She and I from the very beginning were sexual dynamos with virtually nothing being off-limits.
> 
> Then after her through till just before I turned 25, I had been with plenty of other women who were my sexual partners, inclusive of my third longest lasting (living together) sexual relationship.
> 
> Having intimate experience with plenty of women, I am very cognisant that all women are different and that all of my ongoing sexual relationships have had significantly different relationship dynamics. Albeit with frequent enthusiastic sex being had in them.
> 
> As to my wife she waited until she was nearly 26 years old before she had sex with anyone. How is that for a significant lack of wanton visceral sexual desire?
> 
> Then despite finally pulling that trigger with someone else, not long before she and I started dating. She had never taken a mans penis in her mouth. Never orgasmed with anyone and had started faking it with the man she was with (because he told her she was having an orgasm. She had also hardly ever masturbated her whole life and like a good Catholic girl had issues with masturbation and pornography. While she only slept in pyjamas and the only time she would ever be naked was to have a shower.
> 
> Plus until just before me, she had been saving herself up for marriage, despite not lacking for male suitors, boyfriends and some marriage proposals.
> 
> I remember one time way back when with my then now wife, that while feeling embarrassed (paraphrasing)she told me she'd never had a mans penis in her mouth and she was very nervous about it. In response I told her that it's okay, you're going to to get lots of practice. She just told me that, my being matter of fact about it, not making it a big deal and not reinforcing her fear by telling her she'll do it a lot more is what she needed to here in order to be able to go there.
> 
> She has told me what set me apart was I was the only man who didn't tell her what they thought she wanted to hear, didn't blow smoke up her. Treated her as an equal instead of (paraphrasing for this bit with your words) "adapting to her strictly for her benefit" at my own expense.
> 
> She has said I saw her and see her, instead of seeing what I want and wanted to see. She loathes the idea of being worshipped or put on a pedestal, because she cannot live up to an illusion, which denies her real being.
> 
> My wife was not some sexual dynamo when she asked me to have sex with her that first time, and for a time afterwards. She was terribly clumsy, awkward, inexperienced, vanilla and had lots of sexual hangups. Yet I have taken her with me on an ongoing ever evolving and growing sexual relationship journey, because I wasn't willing to sacrifice my own desires for her to be with her.
> 
> If I didn't challenge her, if I didn't acknowledge her real self, if I presumed her sexual mores rather than offering opportunity, if I didn't give her a chance, if I instead worshipped her and if I sacrificed my desires for what I thought she was like. My wife and I would probably only be occasionally sharing infrequent going through the motions missionary sex from time to time today (presuming we would even still be together).
> 
> I love my wife incredibly, yet I see her. I see her foibles, her flaws, her ageing and I acknowledge all of that. So I do not deny her being, by worshiping an illusion. I honour her real self by not worshipping her.
> 
> Silly things like "do I look good in that" or "do I look fat” are always answered in the affirmative without hesitation, when the answer to those questions are honestly yes.
> 
> Yet I love her and I tell her I love her and I tell her what I love about her. And she draws comfort and empowerment and acknowledgement from the fact, that I love her honestly and am not in love with an idealised version of her which is not loving her as she actually is.
> 
> By doing that and other things, like knowing her raw, it has afforded us an ongoing level of intimacy, that is far deeper than many (probably even most) people will ever experience.
> 
> Although you are dismissive, it really is no accident I have always enjoyed a tremendous sex life.
> 
> 
> 
> Macho... sigh.
> 
> You really would do well to give your wife the benefit of the doubt, accept her autonomy and not presume she will act in a certain way, when you don't go there. You have changed through experienced and the passage of time as has your wife.
> 
> Unless you have actually simply said "yes" to your wife, you cannot know if saying that is not cool for her, never has been or never will be. You may well balk at the idea, yet it is arrogant to presume your wife would or always will.
> 
> The saying "yes" when hearing "only" doesn't deny that you desire your wife for more than just sex. Sometimes it's okay not to be so literal. It is one thing to tell a first date, you only want them for sex versus saying "yes" to such a question, from the woman who you have shared a life with where sex isn't all.
> 
> 
> 
> There was a time my wife would be horrified at such statements that you think are very wrong. Yet given time we both found out that she had changed her mind, in part as a consequence of my not presuming her response.
> 
> 
> 
> Yet again you're talking lists.
> 
> While ever you keep talking lists, knowing more and trying to convince me that we could enjoy enjoy it even without goals. I will not be turned on sexually, I will not warm to the idea, I will not feel visceral excitement at an exercise of process.
> 
> If you want to trip my switches, I need you to be my equal and desire me for selfish reasons and with much love. I need you to want me selfishly, so I can feel safe to want you selfishly with much love.
> 
> 
> 
> No I haven't confused it at all.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't take anything from my wife, that she doesn't want to share with me. My wife doesn't take anything from me, that I don't want her to have.
> 
> If I only did what I did in the office yesterday, we would not be having frequent sex. Yet doing things like that help our sexual relationship.
> 
> 
> 
> I was referring to the suggestions as has been proffered as advice that you withdrawal yourself, not your actions or behaviours.
> 
> In my experience most people who come to these forums, have situations that cannot be overcome.
> 
> In this instance I think you and your wife are some of the lucky ones, and you can both resolve this positively going forward while remaining together if that is what you both want.
> 
> Which is why I have been trying to encourage you to think differently.
> 
> 
> 
> Nor am I.
> 
> My wife said you are wrong and that I had her enthusiastic consent. If I didn't have her consent, she would have said "not now" just as she always does when she doesn't feel like sex at the time. She also said if that was the only way we had sex, we would no longer be sharing sex together. Yet she loves that we do that kind of thing when we do it.


----------



## Buddy400

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I'm confident this has nothing to do with my declining libido. I don't even know how much my libido is or isn't declining since it's never put to the test. I did get a recent T check and it showed much higher than typical for a man of my age.
> 
> I have looked at my attitude long and hard. And I still hold out the possibility that this could all be in my head. In fact, I'd rather it was. That's something I can fix. I have fixed a number of very problematic things in myself by sheer force of will. It's a helluva lot easier than trying to fix someone else. But the more I think about it, the more that doesn't seem to be the case.
> 
> Much of what you say is pretty close to a mirror reflection of me, or at least who I was in the past. I would pour myself over her for hours if she'd let me. As it is I'd pour myself over her for 30-45 minutes and relish every last second of it if I was getting any inclination whatsoever that she was enjoying it. She's not demonstrative and I've learned to live with that. I've never expected the kind of "performance" that you seem to be talking about.
> 
> When you say I have a hard time with the HJs because it seems like a chore for her being all in my head, you haven't been in the room at the time to see the aimless glancing around the room, the utter look of indifference on her face, etc. But you're right, the taking longer is not her fault (did I say it was?). It takes longer because I'm 53 years old. When we first started having sex, I busted my ass to train myself to last longer, so I could extend her pleasure. I think I was _too _effective in that. Add my advancing years and that's now a bad combo.
> 
> Watching porn together is a non-starter. We actually did that once in our 20s. She was aroused. But despite her response, she still finds it repugnant, so it's not gonna happen. I have talked dirty to her (not vulgar, but suggestive and definitely horny) in the past. It seemed to improve her mood, but no corresponding effect on actual sex. She is open to, and enjoys such things, even if she's not going to respond.
> 
> As for suggesting other things, I'm well over the fear of rejection. But that remains a two edged sword. While she likes the attention and reinforcement of her desirability, she also thinks some of my suggestions are disturbing (they're actually really quite mild compared to what most of the people on this site do on a regular basis). She wonders why I can't be happy with just the vanilla--to her that's a form of rejection/adds to her feeling that she'll never be able to satisfy me.
> 
> As to your last statement, there's not really a black and white answer. When she turned 53, I told her she was even more beautiful to me than she was at 43, or 33, or even 23. And I meant it. I was utterly, completely sincere. She would complain of a wrinkle somewhere and I'd say "what wrinkle." And I meant it. I could not see physical imperfection anywhere on her. Intellectually, I could tell that an extra 20 years and three kids left her breasts less perky than before, but emotionally I couldn't see it. Her breasts were perfect, the only perfect pair in the world, because they were the only pair attached to her. I couldn't conceive of not seeing her as the goddess I must worship.
> 
> Then, when she told me how hard it was to have regular sex with me all those years, something snapped. The desire disappeared. Literally overnight. This wasn't the gradual lowering of libido associated with ageing, it was a purely mental function, pure and simple. And along with that destruction of desire, came full realization of every wrinkle, every grey hair, the nipples hanging down instead of pointing up and away. It was as if blinders had been removed and I could suddenly see the whole picture.
> 
> After that, she started getting handsy. Just laying in bed, she'd fondle my muscles or run her fingers through my chest hair. Rather than feeling elated, all I could think was "where the hell was this for the last 30 years! If you'd done this a little more even a few months ago, I'd still see you the way I have for three decades. You'd have a man demonstrating more desire than you thought imaginable. But your a day late and a dollar short on this one." I feel like the male version of the walk away wife who's just not going to get her mojo back after years of emotional neglect, no matter how much her husband has now seen the light. And even if I could, it wouldn't make much difference as her menopausal body can't close the deal anyway.


The thing is, after all that, there really are only two choices:

1) Stay married and give up sex. Let her know that you appreciate her effort, but it's just not enough. You're done with sex, so she can conserve her energy. I'd have zero interest in having sex with someone who can't even manage to fake caring while giving you a hand job.

2) Get divorced.

Really nothing else to talk about.


----------



## Buddy400

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I'm always up for a good PFM reference!
> 
> For the first time (and second) time in 31 years, she has been refused. Not that I had to actually say anything, it's just that there was no reaction to her fondling. I did tell her that I no longer feel the way I used to and it would manifest in my ability to be aroused.
> 
> But it couldn't have come at a worse time. With my apnea worsening, she's chalking everything up to my sleep deprivation, no matter what I tell her.


I consider my most important work at my job to be excuse removal.

Remove the excuses people use for holding external things responsible for short comings on their part. 

She's found an excuse. You need to do everything possible to remove it.


----------



## BluesPower

Here is an example of my day yesterday. 

Made love with GF Sat night, long great session. 

Make love is the morning before going to breakfast. Spent the majority of the day at car lots picking out a new car for be, and we really had to get it done yesterday. Got it done. Took rent car to my how so she can take it back today, as I have to work for 24 - 36 hours for a roll out. 

Rushed to the club where we had reservations for a great band. Knocked a few back. 

Drove home with heavy petting/ road head. Got home and she "jokingly" said we can't tonight we have to get up early. 

My response, "Sugar you need to get naked and stop talking". 

Midway through the last session of the day, she said and I kid you not, "Don't ever let me tell you no again". 

My response, "I never considered that to start off with". 

She goes to sleep glowing and cooing. I am a happy camper. 

This is my life...


----------



## MEM2020

How old are you?




BluesPower said:


> Here is an example of my day yesterday.
> 
> Made love with GF Sat night, long great session.
> 
> Make love is the morning before going to breakfast. Spent the majority of the day at car lots picking out a new car for be, and we really had to get it done yesterday. Got it done. Took rent car to my how so she can take it back today, as I have to work for 24 - 36 hours for a roll out.
> 
> Rushed to the club where we had reservations for a great band. Knocked a few back.
> 
> Drove home with heavy petting/ road head. Got home and she "jokingly" said we can't tonight we have to get up early.
> 
> My response, "Sugar you need to get naked and stop talking".
> 
> Midway through the last session of the day, she said and I kid you not, "Don't ever let me tell you no again".
> 
> My response, "I never considered that to start off with".
> 
> She goes to sleep glowing and cooing. I am a happy camper.
> 
> This is my life...


----------



## BluesPower

MEM2020 said:


> How old are you?


Just turned 54...


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

inmyprime said:


> You need to first be clear what precisely your definition of a ‘great marriage’ is, before you apply ‘logic’ to chuck it.
> 
> *If you boil down the definition of a great marriage to a ‘fully engaged HJ’, every time, then yes, your marriage failed.*
> 
> Can you name 8 main (positive) attributes, you choose your wife in the first place for?
> 
> I know I sometimes make fun of religions, but Christians have got this part pretty much nailed down IMO: there is never enough opportunity, to remember the things one should be grateful for. If she made you that miserable, you would have exited in the first few years of your marriage. What changed?
> Apparently, she became more forthcoming and understanding in recent years towards you, from your description. This made you more resentful because you realised that you should have had it all along.
> 
> I really wasn’t joking about a possible man-oh-pause.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Wow! That is possibly the biggest, and most off target, extrapolation I think I’ve ever seen on TAM. I’ve never indicated any such thing. I’ve never eve expected anything like what you’ve so cavalierly boiled decades of disconnect down to. I don’t even really give a crap about the HJs. Whet we were talking about here was decades of her not giving a crap about anything I wanted sexually. 

Gut geez, even in the very post you’re referencing, I was explaining that I couldn’t chuck it because it has been wonderful in every other way. So even then I was, as I have done over and over in many other posts in many other threads, pointing to the positive overall in the marriage. And you respond with that? Wow. 

I love posting the positives, and often do. I much prefer it to the negatives. I wouldn’t even be posting about this anymore, but this whole thing seems to have taken on a life of its own. 

Just ftr, she didn’t become more forthcoming and understanding in recent years, but rather just a few short months ago… and that understanding didn’t come, rather conveniently, until after the body would no longer cooperate. That is the source of the resentment. It’s not that I would like to have had that *all along,* but rather that I would have liked to have had that _when she was actually capable of doing something with it. 
_


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

oldshirt said:


> So I guess it kind of comes down to what your measuring stick of relationship success is? Longevity or quantity and quality of sexuality?


I don't accept false dilemmas. It's both. Standing on two legs is more stable than standing on just one.


----------



## dadstartingover

This, my friends, is called being in an "intimate relationship". 

So many men don't realize how insanely possible this is with your loved one. Just gotta know how to play the game and realize your worth. 



BluesPower said:


> Here is an example of my day yesterday.
> 
> Made love with GF Sat night, long great session.
> 
> Make love is the morning before going to breakfast. Spent the majority of the day at car lots picking out a new car for be, and we really had to get it done yesterday. Got it done. Took rent car to my how so she can take it back today, as I have to work for 24 - 36 hours for a roll out.
> 
> Rushed to the club where we had reservations for a great band. Knocked a few back.
> 
> Drove home with heavy petting/ road head. Got home and she "jokingly" said we can't tonight we have to get up early.
> 
> My response, "Sugar you need to get naked and stop talking".
> 
> Midway through the last session of the day, she said and I kid you not, "Don't ever let me tell you no again".
> 
> My response, "I never considered that to start off with".
> 
> She goes to sleep glowing and cooing. I am a happy camper.
> 
> This is my life...


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Personal said:


> I have no problem with you not agreeing with what I say. Just as you feel I am overlooking things or making false assumptions, I feel you are mistaken and not understanding that I am not doing that at all.
> 
> One thing though I am certainly not offering a cookie cutter approach at all. If I were doing that I would say, you ought to divorce your wife, which is an easier out since.
> 
> You have tried so many things, except what I am driving at. Which is not about details or the mechanics of some selfish office sex, it is about a mindset that is different.
> 
> If only you were more willing to suspend some of your incredulity, you might see what I am offering.
> 
> My wife has read plenty of your posts, and is convinced she would be like your wife sexually if she were with you. And that in her brief sexual experience with another man, she was headed exactly that way with him.
> 
> Men like that wouldn't really see her, they wouldn't allow her the safety of knowing that they love her as she is rather than a fantasy.
> 
> She fears that men like that would presume things about her. not affording her the dignity of being able to consent or deny consent. Since they presume she would say no, so they wouldn't bring it up. To be that way is to deny her.
> 
> The mindset that tells ones wife that they are more beautiful as they age or that they are or have always been perfect, tells my wife that they don't see really see her. That they are seeing what they want to see, rather than seeing her honestly.
> 
> She can't get sexually excited by a man who he feels the need to adapt to her at his own expense.


This post, and the one previous, perfectly illustrate what I'm saying, and why I think you're breaking out the cookie cutter here. 

Everything you use to support your recommendations begins with "My wife this" or My wife that." 

But you know what? Your wife is not my wife!

Any time I point out a difference, you dismiss it with some kind of "but you need to give her a chance..." (ignoring the fact that I have) or "You're not doing it right..." or some other excuse that just chooses to ignore the differences. 

You talk about suspending incredulity, but ignore all the responses I've given to all the other posters here. I'm certainly not incredulous in a general sense as I've welcomed the vast majority of posts here with an open mind. But everything you've said just screams "this worked for us so it'll work for you and if you think there's any meaningful differences in our situations, you're wrong."

What you,* and now your wife, *seem hellbent on ignoring is all the years of early history here. I was always the leader, in and out of the bedroom. Another perfect example of your cookie cutter approach is sharing all those quora quotes, none of which have any applicability here. My wife was not responsible for any decision making. I didn't lean on her for leadership or guidance. I was very much a take charge, get **** done kind of guy, which did attract her to me. And I didn't treat the bedroom any different than any other aspect of our lives. But after years of my take charge attitude not getting things done there, I did seek her input. If that was a foul at that point, then the game is rigged. 

I've tried a lot closer than what you are driving at than you think for some reason. But there are limits that I am aware of which you clearly are not. For instance, if in pushing for oral, knowing she was self conscious, I were to say, "that's okay, you're going to get lots of practice," that'd be then end of that right there. Might have worked with your wife, not gonna' work with mine.


----------



## uhtred

No, its really not possible with *some* people. I think most people could find someone with whom they could have this sort of relationship, but many cannot with their current partners. 



dadstartingover said:


> This, my friends, is called being in an "intimate relationship".
> 
> So many men don't realize how insanely possible this is with your loved one. Just gotta know how to play the game and realize your worth.


----------



## uhtred

Unfortunately many people miss this point. They look at their own behavior and that of their partners and assume everyone else is the same. They are not. 

Some people will never enjoy hiking in the rain and snow northern Norway, or walking through the jungles of Borneo, occasionally flicking off leaches. Some won't enjoy jumping off of mountains under para-sails. Some would be bored out of their skulls looking at a bunch old foundations high on a mountain side in Crete. And some do now want to have lots of sex. 


Not everyone wants lots of sex, just as not everyone wants to do these other things. 

Mismatches are sometimes simply not fixable except by divorce, and some people are unwilling to divorce - not out of fear, but out of love. 






Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> But you know what? Your wife is not my wife!
> 
> .


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Personal said:


> From the age of 17 through to 21, I only had one sexual partner, we were each others firsts for going all the way. She also became my first wife. She and I from the very beginning were sexual dynamos with virtually nothing being off-limits.
> 
> Then after her through till just before I turned 25, I had been with plenty of other women who were my sexual partners, inclusive of my third longest lasting (living together) sexual relationship.
> 
> Having intimate experience with plenty of women, I am very cognisant that all women are different and that all of my ongoing sexual relationships have had significantly different relationship dynamics. Albeit with frequent enthusiastic sex being had in them.
> 
> As to my wife she waited until she was nearly 26 years old before she had sex with anyone. How is that for a significant lack of wanton visceral sexual desire?
> 
> Then despite finally pulling that trigger with someone else, not long before she and I started dating. She had never taken a mans penis in her mouth. Never orgasmed with anyone and had started faking it with the man she was with (because he told her she was having an orgasm. She had also hardly ever masturbated her whole life and like a good Catholic girl had issues with masturbation and pornography. While she only slept in pyjamas and the only time she would ever be naked was to have a shower.
> 
> Plus until just before me, she had been saving herself up for marriage, despite not lacking for male suitors, boyfriends and some marriage proposals.
> 
> I remember one time way back when with my then now wife, that while feeling embarrassed (paraphrasing)she told me she'd never had a mans penis in her mouth and she was very nervous about it. In response I told her that it's okay, you're going to to get lots of practice. She just told me that, my being matter of fact about it, not making it a big deal and not reinforcing her fear by telling her she'll do it a lot more is what she needed to here in order to be able to go there.
> 
> She has told me what set me apart was I was the only man who didn't tell her what they thought she wanted to hear, didn't blow smoke up her. Treated her as an equal instead of (paraphrasing for this bit with your words) "adapting to her strictly for her benefit" at my own expense.
> What set me apart was that I was not easily dissuaded. Her other suitors, who were also many, fell into two categories. Either they were dispatched by her cold exterior and lack of outward enthusiasm, or they simply passively accepted yer indifference but did nothing to initiate attempts to break through that. I was the one who could take her rejections without being crushed, and had the drive to keep pushing through. That eventually won her over. So again here, I was never a passive one waiting for her to tell me what to do.
> 
> She has said I saw her and see her, instead of seeing what I want and wanted to see. She loathes the idea of being worshipped or put on a pedestal, because she cannot live up to an illusion, which denies her real being.
> 
> My wife was not some sexual dynamo when she asked me to have sex with her that first time, and for a time afterwards. She was terribly clumsy, awkward, inexperienced, vanilla and had lots of sexual hangups. Yet I have taken her with me on an ongoing ever evolving and growing sexual relationship journey, because I wasn't willing to sacrifice my own desires for her to be with her.
> And your wife was willing to join you on that journey. Mine wasn't. I doubt you tried anything I didn't.
> 
> If I didn't challenge her, if I didn't acknowledge her real self, if I presumed her sexual mores rather than offering opportunity, if I didn't give her a chance, if I instead worshipped her and if I sacrificed my desires for what I thought she was like. My wife and I would probably only be occasionally sharing infrequent going through the motions missionary sex from time to time today (presuming we would even still be together).
> I also presumed nothing. You seem hung up on the idea I was asking her lead from the beginning. I wasn't.
> 
> I love my wife incredibly, yet I see her. I see her foibles, her flaws, her ageing and I acknowledge all of that. So I do not deny her being, by worshiping an illusion. I honour her real self by not worshipping her.
> Ditto again. My wife definitely has foibles and I see them quite clearly. She has had some rather serious character flaws and I have loved her in full view of those flaws. One of the things I love most about her is that she recognizes them as well, and has been on a continuous journey of self improvement throughout most of our marriage. I have been thrilled to be her partner in this growth, just as she has done the same for me. Some serious foibles remain, and will always be there. I recognize that as well. Nobody's glossing over anything here.
> 
> Silly things like "do I look good in that" or "do I look fat” are always answered in the affirmative without hesitation, when the answer to those questions are honestly yes.
> 
> Yet I love her and I tell her I love her and I tell her what I love about her. And she draws comfort and empowerment and acknowledgement from the fact, that I love her honestly and am not in love with an idealised version of her which is not loving her as she actually is.
> See above. Same thing. No difference between you and I here.
> 
> By doing that and other things, like knowing her raw, it has afforded us an ongoing level of intimacy, that is far deeper than many (probably even most) people will ever experience.
> 
> Although you are dismissive, it really is no accident I have always enjoyed a tremendous sex life.
> I am dismissive because you have misunderstood virtually everything about me, my wife, and out history together.
> 
> 
> 
> Macho... sigh.
> 
> You really would do well to give your wife the benefit of the doubt, accept her autonomy and not presume she will act in a certain way, when you don't go there. You have changed through experienced and the passage of time as has your wife.
> Her autonomy is one of the things I love about her and probably the single greatest factor in me marrying her as opposed to other women I had fallen for. The last thing I would do is deny her that. But for whatever sexual disconnects we may have, I know her very, very well. And I know what her responses will be to most things. I still push sometimes, just to keep my understanding of her current.
> 
> Unless you have actually simply said "yes" to your wife, you cannot know if saying that is not cool for her, never has been or never will be. You may well balk at the idea, yet it is arrogant to presume your wife would or always will.
> 
> The saying "yes" when hearing "only" doesn't deny that you desire your wife for more than just sex. Sometimes it's okay not to be so literal. It is one thing to tell a first date, you only want them for sex versus saying "yes" to such a question, from the woman who you have shared a life with where sex isn't all.
> 
> 
> 
> There was a time my wife would be horrified at such statements that you think are very wrong. Yet given time we both found out that she had changed her mind, in part as a consequence of my not presuming her response.
> 
> 
> 
> Yet again you're talking lists.
> 
> While ever you keep talking lists, knowing more and trying to convince me that we could enjoy enjoy it even without goals. I will not be turned on sexually, I will not warm to the idea, I will not feel visceral excitement at an exercise of process.
> 
> If you want to trip my switches, I need you to be my equal and desire me for selfish reasons and with much love. I need you to want me selfishly, so I can feel safe to want you selfishly with much love.
> 
> And you keep ignoring that that's exactly how I was ... for decades.
> 
> 
> No I haven't confused it at all.
> 
> Of course you are. You constantly harp on the idea that she's not responding because I'm not showing desire. I showed desire for decades, and still got little response. So the fact is I'm not showing desire because I got little response. That is the very essence and definition of reversing cause and effect.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't take anything from my wife, that she doesn't want to share with me. My wife doesn't take anything from me, that I don't want her to have.
> 
> If I only did what I did in the office yesterday, we would not be having frequent sex. Yet doing things like that help our sexual relationship.
> 
> 
> 
> I was referring to the suggestions as has been proffered as advice that you withdrawal yourself, not your actions or behaviours.
> 
> In my experience most people who come to these forums, have situations that cannot be overcome.
> 
> In this instance I think you and your wife are some of the lucky ones, and you can both resolve this positively going forward while remaining together if that is what you both want.
> 
> Which is why I have been trying to encourage you to think differently.
> Thinking like you got me nothing for a very long time.
> 
> Nor am I.
> 
> My wife said you are wrong and that I had her enthusiastic consent. If I didn't have her consent, she would have said "not now" just as she always does when she doesn't feel like sex at the time. She also said if that was the only way we had sex, we would no longer be sharing sex together. Yet she loves that we do that kind of thing when we do it.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Personal said:


> How does one meet such expectations? How does one feel about themselves knowing that the one they love doesn't really see them.
> 
> I don't doubt that you believed that of her, just as I don't doubt that you convinced yourself that she was perfect.
> 
> But no-one is perfect.
> 
> She tries to tell you, she tries to get you to see her, she tries to...
> 
> Yet you deny her, her truth. And tell her you don't see what is so starkly evident.
> 
> You have been together so long. Isn't it time you afford her the dignity of not being perfect? While affording her the dignity of acknowledging that you see her honestly (because knowing it intellectually tells the lie).
> 
> It is okay to love her and stand your ground, it is okay to love her and not adjust to and accommodate her every want.
> 
> 
> 
> The Horror.
> 
> Here is another way of looking at it, now that the blinders are coming off. If you still love your wife, she has an opportunity to be loved and seen as she is. Rather than being loved as an ideal that you have nurtured in your own head.
> 
> You have done this to each other. All of this being close and living lives intimately, while not really seeing each other.
> 
> Where you see waste, I see opportunity in this.
> 
> If she did this months earlier or even years earlier. You would have remained in love with your self generated illusion of her. Such that any intimacy that you have, is built upon a lie that you have told yourself.
> 
> Whereas now that you are starting to see her for all of her faults, and she shows that she wants you. You both have an opportunity to nurture an authentic intimacy that allows her to be who she really is rather than a goddess of your own pretence.
> 
> If you only loved that illusion of her that you made, it is likely that you never really loved her.
> 
> If you really love her, I wish you could really see her and love what is real.
> 
> If that is a bridge too far for you, the nicest thing you could do would be to tell her that you are done.


You've misunderstood here. Please recall that I said I saw and recognized all those imperfections on an intellectual level. I know and understand them well. My point was that they didn't impact my emotional response or attraction to her. 

The point I was making is that now that I've lost that attraction, the physical imperfections do impact my emotional response to her. That is the only change, not that I hadn't always been aware of them. 

So your assessment here is, again, all wrong. I loved her, warts and all, and she has always known that.


----------



## Cletus

BluesPower said:


> Just turned 54...


You do have some small inkling of how far from the norm is your life, right? That your sex life, especially at your age, is probably >99th percentile? You are NOT normal, by the statistical meaning of the term. 

Whatever magic elixir of genes, companionship, luck, and lifestyle provide you with this luxury, it is unlikely that most of us will ever share it. Hell, I'm not even sure I _want_ it.


----------



## 269370

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Wow! That is possibly the biggest, and most off target, extrapolation I think I’ve ever seen on TAM.



Hey, calm down. I said ‘if’. I didn’t say that’s what you are actually doing.
The point is that you can use any metric and use ‘logic’ to determine whether your marriage failed or succeeded. I’m trying to make you see the positives about your partner and your marriage. Because I’m certain there are many. I’m equally certain you don’t actually want to leave your wife so focusing on the negatives is actually counter productive. 

Your partner is your partner; I don’t understand what the point is of others describing how amazing their partners are with them or how it’s down to them that their partner is more sexual with them - there is no way of knowing this. Everyone is different, with so many different factors and variables at play.

What you can do, is stop this negativity and resentment in its tracks before it gets out of control. It’s easier once you recognise that you share a 50/50 responsibility in your marriage, over everything.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BluesPower

Cletus said:


> You do have some small inkling of how far from the norm is your life, right? That your sex life, especially at your age, is probably >99th percentile?
> 
> Whatever magic elixir of genes, companionship, luck, and lifestyle provide you with this luxury, it is unlikely that most of us will ever have that lifestyle. Hell, I'm not even sure I _want_ it.


Well, OK, I guess. 

What I have been trying to get you guys to understand is that, this is how I live. It has always been this was for me, even with my ExW. 

I don't have any magic elixir. This is why I said a while back that people like RMY and other in sexless or near sexless relationships could probably never see eye to eye on this stuff. 

I am not all that special as a man I don't think. Maybe better than average looking, but I really don't think so. Little better than average equipment, but nothing really special. 

I am a super good guy, fun guy, HD sex guy, not really a bad boy anymore. 

Further, this GF is the best GF ever, and our sex is some of the best if not the best I have ever had, but I have had a lot of good sex, just not overall every single time this great. 

But honestly, I really don't think, I am all of that. 
@oldshirt has had WAY more experience than my with all of this. 

I just see myself as a regular guy, but I put that example out there this morning as a simple example of what my life is like sexually. And frankly, this is how it is all the time. 

So I don't think I am really in the 99th percentile, but who really knows. 

I like sex, I date women that like sex, I am not really sure what to say past that...


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

inmyprime said:


> Hey, calm down. I said ‘if’. I didn’t say that’s what you are actually doing.
> The point is that you can use any metric and use ‘logic’ to determine whether your marriage failed or succeeded. I’m trying to make you see the positives about your partner and your marriage. Because I’m certain there are many. I’m equally certain you don’t actually want to leave your wife so focusing on the negatives is actually counter productive.
> 
> Your partner is your partner; I don’t understand what the point is of others describing how amazing their partners are with them or how it’s down to them that their partner is more sexual with them - there is no way of knowing this. Everyone is different, with so many different factors and variables at play.
> 
> What you can do, is stop this negativity and resentment in its tracks before it gets out of control. It’s easier once you recognise that you share a 50/50 responsibility in your marriage, over everything.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


First and foremost, Thank you.

I do still recognize all the overwhelming positives. What do you think has kept us together for 31 years?

When your car has an awesome 800 horsepower engine, immaculate interior, beautiful paint job, wicked cool wheels, but the transmission is klunky, it's not going to be reliable transportation, and can become difficult to maintain. So while 95% of the car is perfect, the 5% that isn't can have a serious effect, so that's where you start putting your attention. It's got to be dealt with to prevent the whole thing from ending up in the scrapyard.


----------



## Personal

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Any time I point out a difference, you dismiss it with some kind of "but you need to give her a chance..." (ignoring the fact that I have) or "You're not doing it right..." or some other excuse that just chooses to ignore the differences.


At no point have I ever said that you need to give her a second chance, that said I certainly did suggest you tell your wife if you're done with her.


----------



## happiness27

I actually kind of *get* Personal and how the relationship he has with his wife works. He's *invested* himself and is full on confident in his approach with his wife - like he is proud that he *sees* her for who she is - and steps up to the plate...steps forward in the relationship. When you are in a relationship with a partner who has resistances (and who among us doesn't have resistances?), you really do need someone who can act with confidence to help you break through barriers, with love and a feeling of "I'm into you enough that I'm going to climb this mountain with you" - It's challenging but also exhilarating to have a partner like that.


----------



## Cletus

BluesPower said:


> Well, OK, I guess.


You are having sex at a rate that is at least 700% of the average for your age group. 

This isn't Lake Wobegone. 

I don't pretend to know why your life has always been like this. But on the other hand, I've never had to dump a girlfriend for the crazy either. Maybe there's a connection.


----------



## Cletus

happiness27 said:


> When you are in a relationship with a partner who has resistances (and who among us doesn't have resistances?), you really do need someone who can act with confidence to help you break through barriers, with love and a feeling of "I'm into you enough that I'm going to climb this mountain with you" - It's challenging but also exhilarating to have a partner like that.


For you.

Others simply find the endless challenges exhausting. "Why are you never satisfied with me?" becomes a constant and appropriate refrain.


----------



## personofinterest

RMY, I totally feel you. When my first marriage was sexless long term, I tried everything, and most of what I got in return was "but you didn't try THIS," "You didn't try it THIS way," "You didn't try it long enough," etc. Esepcially when it was a cookie cutter plan. Because they HAD to pick apart how I did it - otherwise they'd have to admit their foolproof plan DOESN'T work for everyone. Hold will know exactly what I am talking about.

Bottom line, some spouses just don't need sex and just don't deem their partners important enough to change. They can be very nice people - they are just selfish.


----------



## happiness27

"I once had a BF who would always defer to what I wanted. I had to make every choice. Every decision. It was frustrating….. and it was tediously boring!! I was never challenged. I was never pushed outside my comfort zone. I was never surprised. I was never provided an opportunity to grow.

It was stifling and suffocating.

I felt solely responsible for everything and I don’t like feeling responsible for someone else’s happiness and life choices.

I can’t speak on behalf of any other INTJ women, but personally, I want someone who can stand on their own two feet and meet me intellectually. I don’t want some lap-dog or pushover who does what I say without question. If you are not strong enough to stand up for yourself, how will you ever be strong enough to stand up for me?

If you want to please me, don’t please me by folding to my every command. Please me by showing me you are independent enough to live without me, but choose to be with me. Please me by showing me you’re capable of independent, critical thinking and strong enough to stand by your convictions.

While I will have my own ideas on how things should be, I respect someone who also has their own ideas and is willing to explore these and reach a compromise we can both be happy with.

Someone who lays down and lets me walk over them does not have my respect - and if you can’t win my respect, you will never win my heart."


*******************************************************

THIS ^^^^^^^^^


----------



## happiness27

Cletus said:


> For you.
> 
> Others simply find the endless challenges exhausting. "Why are you never satisfied with me?" becomes a constant and appropriate refrain.


Ahhhhh, the ol' resistance routine...

Being challenged will include resistance. Yes, it IS exhausting. Agreed. I like challenges. Partner does not.


----------



## MEM2020

Rocky,

I’m sorry you had to read IMP’s post. I 100% agree with your assessment of it. 




Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Wow! That is possibly the biggest, and most off target, extrapolation I think I’ve ever seen on TAM. I’ve never indicated any such thing. I’ve never eve expected anything like what you’ve so cavalierly boiled decades of disconnect down to. I don’t even really give a crap about the HJs. Whet we were talking about here was decades of her not giving a crap about anything I wanted sexually.
> 
> Gut geez, even in the very post you’re referencing, I was explaining that I couldn’t chuck it because it has been wonderful in every other way. So even then I was, as I have done over and over in many other posts in many other threads, pointing to the positive overall in the marriage. And you respond with that? Wow.
> 
> I love posting the positives, and often do. I much prefer it to the negatives. I wouldn’t even be posting about this anymore, but this whole thing seems to have taken on a life of its own.
> 
> Just ftr, she didn’t become more forthcoming and understanding in recent years, but rather just a few short months ago… and that understanding didn’t come, rather conveniently, until after the body would no longer cooperate. That is the source of the resentment. It’s not that I would like to have had that *all along,* but rather that I would have liked to have had that _when she was actually capable of doing something with it.
> _


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

MEM2020 said:


> Rocky,
> 
> I’m sorry you had to read IMP’s post. I 100% agree with your assessment of it.


Thanks,
I'm taking a softer stance now based on his follow up. I did trigger a bit at that key sentence. Definitely best to stay calm. I do appreciate that he really is trying to bring something relevant to the discussion.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Barring any great revelations not yet shared, I'd kinda' like to drop this for the time being and return this thread to a general discussion rather than just Yeti's problem. 

In parting, I'd like to make a few quick points. 

1. I really don't think its all as bad as I've made it out to be. It is a disconnect. Maybe a rather large disconnect, but not insurmountable. She believes she has contributed to the extent she is able and, given some of her physical history, It'd be hard for me to definitively say otherwise.

2. She has been increasingly open lately. This includes willingness, responsiveness, and even initiation. We just had about 8 days apart due to each traveling for different requirements. Our reunion was very nice. It followed a scenario even @Personal would be proud of. 

3. She is working very hard to keep her body in shape. She is spending time with docs and finding combinations of diet and treatment that will keep her not only able, but also able to enjoy. She got truly jazzed when she and her doc found a creme that alleviates discomfort down there and allows her to participate with pleasure. 

4. Time will tell in the long run. I'm far too jaded at this point to start counting chickens. And while know the level of interest I desire I seek is probably never coming, I can safely say I can start abandoning the term "selfish" with regard to her. 

5. In all likelihood, she will be not only able, but also willing, enthusiastically, to participate at a level that will keep my soon to be 54 year old body happy. That said, the resentment that she wasn't concerned with doing the same for my 34 or 44 year old body still stick in my craw a bit as I will never be 34 or 44 again, and that opportunity is lost forever. With that in mind, I'm still looking for a counselor. I recognize that I am having trouble dealing with that. It's a huge step for me. I've always been adamant about handling things myself, even to the point of having negative judgment of anyone who seeks mental health assistance. I figured you can accomplish anything by the Nike slogan: just do it! And I've always done so. I believe I could force myself to do so now. But rather than think myself weak for looking for help, I figure, what the hell... I can afford it, why not make use of some professional help? I mean, I could have built that new deck on the back of my house myself, but I know it went a lot quicker, cheaper, and with a whole lot less cursing and throwing things by paying the best deckbuilder in town to do it for me.


----------



## MEM2020

In an age of specialization, it is a sign of awareness, and confidence to make use of the specialists we are surrounded by.

The fact that R2 is clearly collaborating with you is a truly beautiful thing. 





Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Barring any great revelations not yet shared, I'd kinda' like to drop this for the time being and return this thread to a general discussion rather than just Yeti's problem.
> 
> In parting, I'd like to make a few quick points.
> 
> 1. I really don't think its all as bad as I've made it out to be. It is a disconnect. Maybe a rather large disconnect, but not insurmountable. She believes she has contributed to the extent she is able and, given some of her physical history, It'd be hard for me to definitively say otherwise.
> 
> 2. She has been increasingly open lately. This includes willingness, responsiveness, and even initiation. We just had about 8 days apart due to each traveling for different requirements. Our reunion was very nice. It followed a scenario even @Personal would be proud of.
> 
> 3. She is working very hard to keep her body in shape. She is spending time with docs and finding combinations of diet and treatment that will keep her not only able, but also able to enjoy. She got truly jazzed when she and her doc found a creme that alleviates discomfort down there and allows her to participate with pleasure.
> 
> 4. Time will tell in the long run. I'm far too jaded at this point to start counting chickens. And while know the level of interest I desire I seek is probably never coming, I can safely say I can start abandoning the term "selfish" with regard to her.
> 
> 5. In all likelihood, she will be not only able, but also willing, enthusiastically, to participate at a level that will keep my soon to be 54 year old body happy. That said, the resentment that she wasn't concerned with doing the same for my 34 or 44 year old body still stick in my craw a bit as I will never be 34 or 44 again, and that opportunity is lost forever. With that in mind, I'm still looking for a counselor. I recognize that I am having trouble dealing with that. It's a huge step for me. I've always been adamant about handling things myself, even to the point of having negative judgment of anyone who seeks mental health assistance. I figured you can accomplish anything by the Nike slogan: just do it! And I've always done so. I believe I could force myself to do so now. But rather than think myself weak for looking for help, I figure, what the hell... I can afford it, why not make use of some professional help? I mean, I could have built that new deck on the back of my house myself, but I know it went a lot quicker, cheaper, and with a whole lot less cursing and throwing things by paying the best deckbuilder in town to do it for me.


----------



## Buddy400

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Now to answer your new question, my wife is naked every chance she gets. She is completely comfortable being naked around me any and all times. She has absolute, total comfort with me seeing her naked, even ogling her which she actually likes. This is in spite of her middle aged angst about things not being as perky as they used to be, skin not being as smooth as it used to be, etc. Yet despite whatever age induced body image issues she may be developing, she continues to be completely comfortable parading around naked in front of me, or just going about her business around the house naked when I'm home. If we lived in a warmer climate, she'd do it even more.


Violating my oath to stop giving you advice (again, sigh..), 

I'd tell her to put some clothes on.

This sounds like @ultred's wife (and that's not a good thing!)


----------



## happiness27

Cletus said:


> For you.
> 
> Others simply find the endless challenges exhausting. "Why are you never satisfied with me?" becomes a constant and appropriate refrain.


Yes, I understand. I am the challenger. I get exhausted with it.


----------



## personofinterest

happiness27 said:


> Yes, I understand. I am the challenger. I get exhausted with it.



Do you enjoy being the challenger? What is your payoff? Why do you do this?


----------



## MEM2020

H27,
We have a little bit of this dynamic. So - in an effort to address it I planned an 8 day vacation for us at a very detailed level. 

The fun started the night we flew out and the whole trip was fantastic. And the two mistakes I made in the planning process - which caused us (1) about a one hour delay - and (2) a one night stay in a total dump - well M2 couldn’t have been nicer both times. 

To be fair the dumpy hotel was in a an area with very limited lodging choices. 






happiness27 said:


> "I once had a BF who would always defer to what I wanted. I had to make every choice. Every decision. It was frustrating….. and it was tediously boring!! I was never challenged. I was never pushed outside my comfort zone. I was never surprised. I was never provided an opportunity to grow.
> 
> It was stifling and suffocating.
> 
> I felt solely responsible for everything and I don’t like feeling responsible for someone else’s happiness and life choices.
> 
> I can’t speak on behalf of any other INTJ women, but personally, I want someone who can stand on their own two feet and meet me intellectually. I don’t want some lap-dog or pushover who does what I say without question. If you are not strong enough to stand up for yourself, how will you ever be strong enough to stand up for me?
> 
> If you want to please me, don’t please me by folding to my every command. Please me by showing me you are independent enough to live without me, but choose to be with me. Please me by showing me you’re capable of independent, critical thinking and strong enough to stand by your convictions.
> 
> While I will have my own ideas on how things should be, I respect someone who also has their own ideas and is willing to explore these and reach a compromise we can both be happy with.
> 
> Someone who lays down and lets me walk over them does not have my respect - and if you can’t win my respect, you will never win my heart."
> 
> 
> *******************************************************
> 
> THIS ^^^^^^^^^


----------



## 269370

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Thanks,
> 
> I'm taking a softer stance now based on his follow up. I did trigger a bit at that key sentence. Definitely best to stay calm. I do appreciate that he really is trying to bring something relevant to the discussion.




I think it’s best you ignore everything I said up to this point. If a moderator is going to dislike you and your posts, and doesn’t have the courtesy to explain why, there’s pretty much nothing you can do. (And by ‘you’, I mean me).

I have been at the juncture you are at now (I’m younger than you). And I managed to pull through stronger. I couldn’t be happier. What I certainly didn’t do, was focusing on a highly sexual, imaginary person (I wonder who might that be) to improve my sex life and instead focused fully on myself and the person I love the most.
Best of luck to both of you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

inmyprime said:


> I think it’s best you ignore everything I said up to this point. If a moderator is going to dislike you and your posts, and doesn’t have the courtesy to explain why, there’s pretty much nothing you can do. (And by ‘you’, I mean me).
> 
> I have been at the juncture you are at now (I’m younger than you). And I managed to pull through stronger. I couldn’t be happier. What I certainly didn’t do, was focusing on a highly sexual, imaginary person (I wonder who might that be) to improve my sex life and instead focused fully on myself and the person I love the most.
> Best of luck to both of you.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think I'm focusing on trying to get a partner who actually wants to be a partner rather than dismissing my input out of hand. I'm not trying to make her into my dream sex goddess or anything here. I just want a partner who is at least half as vested in me as I am in her. Focusing on the person I loved the most for 30 years got me squat (sexually, that is).


----------



## MEM2020

Imp,

The reasons for the intentionally slow response to your query below are as follows:
0. Most important: I believed you had sufficient self awareness to be able to go back and read a prior post and see it for what it is. Especially after Rocky explained why he disliked it. 


1. Your very first comment (see below) was about not having to conform. True statement. But that changes the discussion. My post didn’t reference forum rules, my being a mod or anything of the sort. In my view you weren’t breaking forum rules, so this wasn’t intended as a legalistic exchange. 
2. When you use the phrase ‘letting me down’, after preemptively pointing out you aren’t in violation of the rules - it feels adversarial. 
3. So third and last you request an explanation for why I have called out your post. You say it is so you can learn and improve. I believe you believed that when you typed it. 

But your opening felt defensive, and your middle comment seemed as if it might be snarky or adversarial. In my experience people who are defensive and adversarial tend to defend and adversate (my extension to the OED), as opposed to listening and learning. 

With that out the way I will attempt to do justice to the post in question. For clarity this is a subjective interpretation based on my experience, that doesn’t make it right, but it is sincere. 

1. You minimized and trivialized the pattern of chronic sexual rejection Rocky experienced thru most of his marriage.
2. After doing so, you basically told him that if he was so hypersensitive that an imperfect hj qualified as a bad sex life, and therefore a bad marriage, than indeed his marriage was a failure.

I admit to being dumbfounded when a man such as yourself:
1. freely acknowledges in another post that after 3-4 days (sorry I am uncertain whether it was 3 or 4 but it was one or the other) without sex he begins to feel out of sorts - despite wishing otherwise. 
2. chooses to ignore that the poster he is judging (pretty harshly) was gated at once per 30 days for long periods of his marriage 

Hopefully that clears all this up to your satisfaction.

As a side note, in my family - telling someone they ought be in PR is not a compliment. 





inmyprime said:


> That’s ok. Fortunately, we don’t all have to conform to the same buckets.
> Perhaps if you care to mention which part of the bucket I let you down with, I could clarify it.
> Otherwise the ‘your post is crap’ with no reasons given will not give me a lot to learn from, for the future.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## wilson

BluesPower said:


> Further, this GF is the best GF ever, and our sex is some of the best if not the best I have ever had, but I have had a lot of good sex, just not overall every single time this great.


I'm glad you're having great sex, but dating sex is not a valid comparison to sex in a long-term relationship. I would guess that that vast majority of married people had mind-blowing sex at the beginning of their relationships. There are powerful hormones that give you a boost of sexual energy at the beginning. But over time, those hormones fade. I can guarantee that the sexual relationship with your GF will fade if you stay with her for years and decades.

If a man wants to guarantee a lifetime of mind-blowing sex, the most successful way to make that happen is to go from relationship to relationship. Once the sexual energy starts to fade in one relationship, break up and find a new relationship. But the consequence of this is that you won't form a deep, life-long relationship with your partner and all that brings. 

If any man is expecting dating-level sex in a life-long marriage, he's setting himself up for disappointment. While that does happen in rare cases, it's most common for long-term sex to be more about emotional connection rather hot passion.


----------



## BluesPower

wilson said:


> I'm glad you're having great sex, but dating sex is not a valid comparison to sex in a long-term relationship. I would guess that that vast majority of married people had mind-blowing sex at the beginning of their relationships. There are powerful hormones that give you a boost of sexual energy at the beginning. But over time, those hormones fade. I can guarantee that the sexual relationship with your GF will fade if you stay with her for years and decades.
> 
> If a man wants to guarantee a lifetime of mind-blowing sex, the most successful way to make that happen is to go from relationship to relationship. Once the sexual energy starts to fade in one relationship, break up and find a new relationship. But the consequence of this is that you won't form a deep, life-long relationship with your partner and all that brings.
> 
> If any man is expecting dating-level sex in a life-long marriage, he's setting himself up for disappointment. While that does happen in rare cases, it's most common for long-term sex to be more about emotional connection rather hot passion.


Dude, I am 54, how much longer do you think I have to let it go down hill. Not to mention the fact the on a relationship level, we have already talked about this very subject. 

Further, as much as I hated my ExW, we had a great sex life. 

So yeah, I get you, but I really don't think that will be an issue. At some point I will get too old, but I have several years left until I am too old to have sex. 

And as I explained before, this is how my life and sex work, someone says that I am an outlier, and maybe that is right.

But I don't see myself that way, I just see myself as normal...


----------



## MEM2020

Rocky,
Sometimes M2 has these little - low grade anxiety attacks. During them she will ask me: Why is it always about me (herself) all the time?

I just laugh and say - it isn’t. Besides our routine - whatever it is - works well for us. Be happy, I’m happy with you. 

When she needs a gentle nudge - I typically say: Hey hey now - hold on a moment - for a brief time here we are actually talking about - me. 

Usually she laughs and says sorry and then provides her undivided attention. 

But I dont say it in anger. 





Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I think I'm focusing on trying to get a partner who actually wants to be a partner rather than dismissing my input out of hand. I'm not trying to make her into my dream sex goddess or anything here. I just want a partner who is at least half as vested in me as I am in her. Focusing on the person I loved the most for 30 years got me squat (sexually, that is).


----------



## happiness27

wilson said:


> I'm glad you're having great sex, but dating sex is not a valid comparison to sex in a long-term relationship. I would guess that that vast majority of married people had mind-blowing sex at the beginning of their relationships. There are powerful hormones that give you a boost of sexual energy at the beginning. But over time, those hormones fade. I can guarantee that the sexual relationship with your GF will fade if you stay with her for years and decades.
> 
> If a man wants to guarantee a lifetime of mind-blowing sex, the most successful way to make that happen is to go from relationship to relationship. Once the sexual energy starts to fade in one relationship, break up and find a new relationship. But the consequence of this is that you won't form a deep, life-long relationship with your partner and all that brings.
> 
> If any man is expecting dating-level sex in a life-long marriage, he's setting himself up for disappointment. While that does happen in rare cases, it's most common for long-term sex to be more about emotional connection rather hot passion.


What you have written may seem obvious but, really, they are excellent points to bear in mind. That dating sex *can be* mind-blowing and for people who have that as their point of reference, long-term relationship sex is probably shockingly disappointing. (I have to add, though, that sometimes dating sex actually didn't go so well - which are stories my husband and I shared and kind of laugh at ourselves about now.)

Every couple is probably quite different, well, they must be quite different because individuals are quite different. Put two different individuals together and it's exponential what issues arise.

Sometimes I get exhausted being the one leading the variations to keep things exciting. I need to develop some sympathy for my partner who genuinely has difficulty initiating creativity. 

In several of our recent discussions, I pondered the idea that variation for him came from dating different women - so...different women, different experiences was the catalyst for higher levels of excitement. He never really had to try to be creative - just get someone new.

How does one create a fairly consistent level of excitement within a long-term relationship that is of a high enough caliber to compete with variation of partners? 

I mean, if sex is the same five or six actions in slightly varying order, it gets predictable which is a libido killer. 

So, what are activities that couples here find raises their excitement levels (besides porn)?

Going dancing?

Dressing up and going out someplace fun?

Travel?

Going to a lakehouse or something like that?

__________________________ fill in the blank


----------



## john117

Cletus said:


> You do have some small inkling of how far from the norm is your life, right? That your sex life, especially at your age, is probably >99th percentile? You are NOT normal, by the statistical meaning of the term.
> 
> Whatever magic elixir of genes, companionship, luck, and lifestyle provide you with this luxury, it is unlikely that most of us will ever share it. Hell, I'm not even sure I _want_ it.


Statistics is your friend...

It's like, umm, John, you make this much with a Psychology degree? Doing fun stuff? Duuuude, tell me the secret!!!!

There ain't no secret. I took some risks early on that paid in spades. Otherwise I'd be stuck teaching at a community college or bottom tier university...

The thing is, I understand the odds. And they're longer than a Hail Mary pass for what I did. A few TAM regulars, with stellar relationships apparently, seem to think that's how the rest of humanity works. It don't, my friend. There's this thing called life, and it gets in the way. 

Seriously, people. Look up the availability heuristic.


----------



## MEM2020

Statistics say that women suffer more from boredom than men do. 

At core - M2 seeks novelty. I never say no, still she would prefer that I ALSO was novelty seeking. Or more so. 




happiness27 said:


> What you have written may seem obvious but, really, they are excellent points to bear in mind. That dating sex *can be* mind-blowing and for people who have that as their point of reference, long-term relationship sex is probably shockingly disappointing. (I have to add, though, that sometimes dating sex actually didn't go so well - which are stories my husband and I shared and kind of laugh at ourselves about now.)
> 
> Every couple is probably quite different, well, they must be quite different because individuals are quite different. Put two different individuals together and it's exponential what issues arise.
> 
> Sometimes I get exhausted being the one leading the variations to keep things exciting. I need to develop some sympathy for my partner who genuinely has difficulty initiating creativity.
> 
> In several of our recent discussions, I pondered the idea that variation for him came from dating different women - so...different women, different experiences was the catalyst for higher levels of excitement. He never really had to try to be creative - just get someone new.
> 
> How does one create a fairly consistent level of excitement within a long-term relationship that is of a high enough caliber to compete with variation of partners?
> 
> I mean, if sex is the same five or six actions in slightly varying order, it gets predictable which is a libido killer.
> 
> So, what are activities that couples here find raises their excitement levels (besides porn)?
> 
> Going dancing?
> 
> Dressing up and going out someplace fun?
> 
> Travel?
> 
> Going to a lakehouse or something like that?
> 
> __________________________ fill in the blank


----------



## Buddy400

wilson said:


> I'm glad you're having great sex, but dating sex is not a valid comparison to sex in a long-term relationship. I would guess that that vast majority of married people had mind-blowing sex at the beginning of their relationships. There are powerful hormones that give you a boost of sexual energy at the beginning. But over time, those hormones fade. I can guarantee that the sexual relationship with your GF will fade if you stay with her for years and decades.
> 
> If a man wants to guarantee a lifetime of mind-blowing sex, the most successful way to make that happen is to go from relationship to relationship. Once the sexual energy starts to fade in one relationship, break up and find a new relationship. But the consequence of this is that you won't form a deep, life-long relationship with your partner and all that brings.
> 
> If any man is expecting dating-level sex in a life-long marriage, he's setting himself up for disappointment. While that does happen in rare cases, it's most common for long-term sex to be more about emotional connection rather hot passion.


Yes, in almost all cases, things calm down.

But they shouldn't calm down to RMY's level.

Taking action at an early stage can keep it from being too calm (at some small risk to the relationship).

BTW, It can happen. The wife and I are having the best sex of our lives in our late 50's, early 60's.

But it annoys me when these 5% guys who get all the sex of whatever variety they want whenever they want it start telling us we should just do what worked for them. That's like Tom Brady trying to tell me how to read defenses. First, my mind would need to be capable of even processing that kind of information that fast, then I'd need something approximating his physical skills, THEN maybe it would do me some good.

Women rate 90% of men as being below average.

If your not in that 90% and your partners start taking you for granted, it's no big thing to next them and try the next one in line.

If you are in that 90% and go months or years between 1st dates, it's whole 'nother thing (not that nexting them isn't still the right thing to do, a lifetime of masturbation is better than what a lot of guys go through). 

Of course, you can try to become one of the 10%, but it's not quite as easy as having "confidence".

And, after years of a relationship, you'd hope staying married has _some_ value to your partner.


----------



## MEM2020

The (D)esire to please is quite different than (L)ust 

M2 and I struggle a bit on the Lust front due to me being a bit excessively patterned and her greater need for novelty. 

But on the Desire to please front - we do pretty good. 





Buddy400 said:


> Yes, in almost all cases, things calm down.
> 
> But they shouldn't calm down to RMY's level.
> 
> Taking action at an early stage can keep it from being too calm (at some small risk to the relationship).
> 
> BTW, It can happen. The wife and I are having the best sex of our lives in our late 50's, early 60's.
> 
> But it annoys me when these 5% guys who get all the sex of whatever variety they want whenever they want it start telling us we should just do what worked for them. That's like Tom Brady trying to tell me how to read defenses. First, my mind would need to be capable of even processing that kind of information that fast, then I'd need something approximating his physical skills, THEN maybe it would do me some good.
> 
> Women rate 90% of men as being below average.
> 
> If your not in that 90% and your partners start taking you for granted, it's no big thing to next them and try the next one in line.
> 
> If you are in that 90% and go months or years between 1st dates, it's whole 'nother thing (not that nexting them isn't still the right thing to do, a lifetime of masturbation is better than what a lot of guys go through).
> 
> Of course, you can try to become one of the 10%, but it's not quite as easy as having "confidence".
> 
> And, after years of a relationship, you'd hope staying married has _some_ value to your partner.


----------



## 269370

MEM2020 said:


> Imp,
> 
> 
> 
> The reasons for the intentionally slow response to your query below are as follows:
> 
> 0. Most important: I believed you had sufficient self awareness to be able to go back and read a prior post and see it for what it is. Especially after Rocky explained why he disliked it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Your very first comment (see below) was about not having to conform. True statement. But that changes the discussion. My post didn’t reference forum rules, my being a mod or anything of the sort. In my view you weren’t breaking forum rules, so this wasn’t intended as a legalistic exchange.
> 
> 2. When you use the phrase ‘letting me down’, after preemptively pointing out you aren’t in violation of the rules - it feels adversarial.
> 
> 3. So third and last you request an explanation for why I have called out your post. You say it is so you can learn and improve. I believe you believed that when you typed it.
> 
> 
> 
> But your opening felt defensive, and your middle comment seemed as if it might be snarky or adversarial. In my experience people who are defensive and adversarial tend to defend and adversate (my extension to the OED), as opposed to listening and learning.
> 
> 
> 
> With that out the way I will attempt to do justice to the post in question. For clarity this is a subjective interpretation based on my experience, that doesn’t make it right, but it is sincere.
> 
> 
> 
> 1. You minimized and trivialized the pattern of chronic sexual rejection Rocky experienced thru most of his marriage.
> 
> 2. After doing so, you basically told him that if he was so hypersensitive that an imperfect hj qualified as a bad sex life, and therefore a bad marriage, than indeed his marriage was a failure.
> 
> 
> 
> I admit to being dumbfounded when a man such as yourself:
> 
> 1. freely acknowledges in another post that after 3-4 days (sorry I am uncertain whether it was 3 or 4 but it was one or the other) without sex he begins to feel out of sorts - despite wishing otherwise.
> 
> 2. chooses to ignore that the poster he is judging (pretty harshly) was gated at once per 30 days for long periods of his marriage
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully that clears all this up to your satisfaction.
> 
> 
> 
> As a side note, in my family - telling someone they ought be in PR is not a compliment.



Thanks for clarifying and qualifying your dismissal of my post.

As I suspected, you have not understood the main driver of my post or perhaps I didn’t express it well: that I was neither minimising nor criticising Rocky, but I was criticising other posters’ attitude, who cheer him on to imagine and encourage him to abandon his marriage which I don’t find at all productive for someone in his situation.

I do not think his situation (where rejection is not the issue, but quality of sex is) is worth abandoning, but more importantly, I do not think HE thinks his situation is worth abandoning, nor do I think that he is going to abandon his wife over this.
I’m happy to stand corrected on this and if he indeed decides to abandon his marriage, I will only offer words of encouragement in that situation.

Below is the post you dismissed again. Hopefully with that explanation, it will be easier to understand the intended meaning this time.

“I do find it so strange that a website about marriage tends to gravitate towards divorce / leaving her / imagine your life with someone else etc when someone’s simply venting. It’s really crazy.

I would not imagine in a million years leaving my wife or be with anybody else if her attention was wandering during HJ* or if she sometimes wasn’t that into it. I don’t mean to minimise your frustrations but you spent a whole life with this woman, built memories together, have kids together (presumably), know / trust each other and you give up / are contemplating a life with someone else before even seeing a marriage counsellor together. And people are cheering you on and pat each other on the back. That’s why everyone has such happy relationships here I guess. I’m sure some do and found the best mix between what they get and what they are able to tolerate. In the end, I’m sure you know best yourself what is good for you and what you are willing to give up / trade off. 
It will be interesting to hear what your marriage counsellor comes up with and whether it’s going to be anything remotely similar to the advice you are getting here.”

*i used a bad HJ as an example because this was the only specific example provided of a bad performance. But it can be substituted for anything else, that RMY might not be satisfied with.

Lastly, if you don’t like somebody, everything they write will seem adversarial.

Anyway, I better leave this now. It’s too time consuming, you are right about it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MEM2020

This stuff is often inherently difficult. 

From the very beginning M2 offered me an intensely high level of sexual intimacy and mechanically exceptional sex. 

While I responded in a totally positive way to HER transparency, I was closed off. Eventually - thru tremendous patience and determination she got me to open up.

Outside the bedroom it was exactly the opposite. 

Goodwill, patience and effort are your friends. And it’s ok to say: it’s very hurtful when I don’t feel prioritized. 






Buddy400 said:


> Yes, in almost all cases, things calm down.
> 
> But they shouldn't calm down to RMY's level.
> 
> Taking action at an early stage can keep it from being too calm (at some small risk to the relationship).
> 
> BTW, It can happen. The wife and I are having the best sex of our lives in our late 50's, early 60's.
> 
> But it annoys me when these 5% guys who get all the sex of whatever variety they want whenever they want it start telling us we should just do what worked for them. That's like Tom Brady trying to tell me how to read defenses. First, my mind would need to be capable of even processing that kind of information that fast, then I'd need something approximating his physical skills, THEN maybe it would do me some good.
> 
> Women rate 90% of men as being below average.
> 
> If your not in that 90% and your partners start taking you for granted, it's no big thing to next them and try the next one in line.
> 
> If you are in that 90% and go months or years between 1st dates, it's whole 'nother thing (not that nexting them isn't still the right thing to do, a lifetime of masturbation is better than what a lot of guys go through).
> 
> Of course, you can try to become one of the 10%, but it's not quite as easy as having "confidence".
> 
> And, after years of a relationship, you'd hope staying married has _some_ value to your partner.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

MEM2020 said:


> The (D)esire to please is quite different than (L)ust
> 
> M2 and I struggle a bit on the Lust front due to me being a bit excessively patterned and her greater need for novelty.
> 
> But on the Desire to please front - we do pretty good.


Marvelous. As it should be.


----------



## Personal

happiness27 said:


> So, what are activities that couples here find raises their excitement levels (besides porn)?
> 
> Going dancing?
> 
> Dressing up and going out someplace fun?
> 
> Travel?
> 
> Going to a lakehouse or something like that?
> 
> __________________________ fill in the blank



My wife and I will go out during the summer with her wearing a light dress and no knickers or bra. So while out in public whenever there is an opportunity she will flash me her breasts or flash me her bare/hairy vulva.

The flashing still occurs during other seasons, yet it is happens most often when it is warm or hot.

I tell my wife what I'm going to do to her and how I am going to use her.

I tell my wife what I want her to do to me sexually.

There are plenty of occasions where my wife gets so excited, she apologises for using me for her pleasure without regard for me.

We will sometimes drive somewhere and park the car, then have penis in vagina or anus sex in the car or outdoors, or my wife will give me oral sex or I will do something else to her.

If we're driving any sort of distance in the middle of nowhere, my wife will sometimes bare her breasts so I can grope them more easily while driving.

Sometimes we've been to places and haven't had opportunity to have sex because of the presence of others. Yet we still get the excitement of trying to do it, so we bring home all of that sexual tension and consume each other there instead.

We will go to an isolated area of rocks at a beach and have sex, or my wife will pose for photographs of her flashing me outdoors at various locations.

We go away for some weekends and build lots of sexual tension long the way, and have sex plentifully whenever the mood strikes us.

We try going to different things like alternative clubs, plus we still date, go to dinner, sometimes meet for lunch, go to concerts and sometimes see theatrical plays. Our latest concert was seeing Franz Ferdinand and MGMT. When we started dating we saw Nick Cave & The Badseeds, Pulp and many others, it has worked for us to keep doing this when we can.

...


Although there is a sameness to specific sex acts, we have a reasonable repertoire which keeps it more interesting.

Sometimes she get's fisted in her vagina, sometimes I get rimmed while she gives me a hand job or she will give me a prostate massage while my penis is in her mouth. Sometimes I paddle her behind with my bare hands.

Sometimes I will use a dildo or a butt plug or a few fingers in her anus, while I have my penis in her vagina. We don't use vibrators at all (although we have one and it was tried for a bit).

Sometimes I will grab her while she is standing up, pull her knickers down and finger her till she orgasms, then I will pull her knickers up and walk a way. Sometimes I will bite her nipples while she is approaching orgasm and through her orgasm while she is getting PIV sex.

We often have anal sex where I penetrate her anus with my penis, sometimes I cum inside her and sometimes I pull out and give it to her face. We often have penis in vagina sex in the missionary position (or variations), because it frequently sees her have an orgasm. Especially when combined with some well timed nipple play.

My wife often gets oral sex, where she is laying down, standing up or sitting astride my face.

My wife often gives me oral sex (almost every time we have any type of sex), and will swallows it or hold it in her mouth and show me, drool it out onto her breasts etc. Or take facials and be photographed doing all of those things.

I also sometimes give my wife golden showers, although it's not really golden (being very clear) because I drink a lot of water whenever we do that. I also pee in her mouth when doing that and will do this before or after we have penetrative sex. Sometimes I like washing my cum off her face and breasts with my pee afterwards.

Even though we are in our late 40s, we sometimes still give each other hickeys.

We again have a new profile on a popular fetish website, where she is exposed (sans her identity) naked or cum glazed etc.

Our dining table, the lounge chairs any convenient floor, the garden, the car, the mountains, the bush, the fields and anywhere else where we can do it.

We don't have set times or schedules for sex, so that limits routine as well.

The above is of course far from exhaustive and is always ever evolving, even after 22+ years of being together.

...


Variation is normal and helps a healthy sex life. Especially since depending upon the the moment, the timing, the day of the month, how one is generally feeling. The same thing doesn't always work in driving a better sexual experience.

It isn't just about differences between people, what works one day or one minute may not work the next moment or the next day with the same person. Yet given another time it will work again. My wife is generally not keen on having her nipples bitten at all. Yet if she goes past this wonderful tipping point, she grinds into me more and wants me to bite her nipples hard and tug on them.

With other women and my wife it has sometimes been hair pulling, or grinding teeth down their neck or this or that or the other on and on in many variations.

...


Amongst my greatest pleasures with women is the moment when you are having sex with them and they go through this splendid moment of change. Where once they were more composed and then they turn into a wanton animal whose lust is all consuming. I have experienced this with plenty of women and still do with my wife and I love that loss of control, and that overwhelming desire to consume me sexually.

Sometimes they don't orgasm, sometimes they do orgasm without going through that moment. Yet nothing is better than a woman who goes through that moment and wants to eat you alive during that period leading up through an orgasm. The deepest pulsing in their vagina and their rectum at the end of that, with it lasting for such a long time as you feel it around you is simply splendid.

I am very envious of the visceral very carnal and wanton lust that women I have been with possess. Plus I am envious of the very deep and long lasting orgasms that they can have.

In my experience women are extremely sexual animals.

...


That said we're always mixing things up and keeping things fresh (which I find a pleasure to do), it's really nice that after all of this time my wife still frequently responds like a wanton and very lustful animal in the moment. I've no doubt mixing things up has gone some way towards maintaining this desire.



wilson said:


> If any man is expecting dating-level sex in a life-long marriage, he's setting himself up for disappointment. While that does happen in rare cases, it's most common for long-term sex to be more about emotional connection rather hot passion.


I have always expected exactly that and to date through decades have always had exactly that and much more.

I can't ever imagine being in a limited sex or sexless, sexual relationship and I won't settle for being in one either.


----------



## PigglyWiggly

copy/paste

"Experts tell us there are several types of intimacy:

Intellectual (a rich meeting of the minds)
Experiential (closeness in activity such that you are in sync)
Sexual (characterized by shared sensual and sexual expression)
Emotional (characterized by shared feelings, trust, vulnerability)"

end copy/paste

What I believe to be the pinnacle of sex has just occurred in the last two years when my wife and I have been able to experience these 4 types of intimacy at the same time with emotional intimacy being the last to be fully and thoroughly realized. 

My wife brought more sexual intimacy experience to our relationship than myself whereas I brought more emotional intimacy experience than she did. Unfortunately, we both had some painful/negative baggage associated with these intimacies. That baggage limited us from being able to fully use sex to express the love that we felt for each other. Don't get me wrong, we were having great sex and with great frequency but every once in awhile, a piece of that past baggage would almost disappear and we could both feel the stronger connection that occurred. We wanted to be able to have that connection accessible at all times but we'd have to get rid of that baggage and push boundaries for that to be possible. 

How do we get rid of that baggage and have the courage to really move forward? Some people use therapy and counselors. My wife's past experiences with those were helpful but she felt the progress was pretty limited. I started shedding my baggage over time but that was just taking too long. I had run across Sam Harris, an American neuroscientist and public intellectual. His insights with certain drugs fascinated me. I researched and picked 4 drugs that I thought could be used as tools to elevate each type of intimacy and allow my wife and I to access the connection we were yearning for. 2 years ago we started this experiment and today have the connection we yearned for as well as having shed all of our baggage.

The levels of these intimacies that we now share have exploded with seemingly no limit in sight while no longer using any of these tools. I have intentionally been somewhat vague regarding the topic of these tools as to not violate the rules here. 

My point in all of this is to say that I think that many are searching for another level of intimacy as well as their partner but they may not understand that they are yearning for a different type of intimacy than their partner. I believe it is how both partners can truly put in work to make the sex better yet neither can see and appreciate the work of the other. 

If you wiki Sam Harris and that way of thinking piques your interest, I am available via PM for further discussion about my own experiences, frank and open minded discussion.


----------



## CharlieParker

MEM2020 said:


> The (D)esire to please is quite different than (L)ust
> 
> M2 and I struggle a bit on the Lust front due to me being a bit excessively patterned and her greater need for novelty.
> 
> But on the Desire to please front - we do pretty good.


Excessively patterned, love the term. That is so both of us. Yes, it makes it a bit of a struggle, but we realize that and generally do pretty good too.


----------



## happiness27

CharlieParker said:


> MEM2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The (D)esire to please is quite different than (L)ust
> 
> M2 and I struggle a bit on the Lust front due to me being a bit excessively patterned and her greater need for novelty.
> 
> But on the Desire to please front - we do pretty good.
> 
> 
> 
> Excessively patterned, love the term. That is so both of us. Yes, it makes it a bit of a struggle, but we realize that and generally do pretty good too.
Click to expand...


I would venture a guess that a good number of lady libidos die on the vine of excessively patterned sex.


----------



## CharlieParker

happiness27 said:


> I would venture a guess that a good number of lady libidos die on the vine of excessively patterned sex.


Not what I meant, nor how I read @MEM2020, but yes, absolutely. I meant more about how to get into the bedroom, we’re good once we get there.


----------



## MEM2020

This is why physical combat is so good as foreplay. This hybrid wrestling / fighting thing. What MAKES it good is that it is unpredictable. 




happiness27 said:


> I would venture a guess that a good number of lady libidos die on the vine of excessively patterned sex.


----------



## happiness27

MEM2020 said:


> This is why physical combat is so good as foreplay. This hybrid wrestling / fighting thing. What MAKES it good is that it is unpredictable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> happiness27 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would venture a guess that a good number of lady libidos die on the vine of excessively patterned sex.
Click to expand...

Lol


----------



## oldshirt

Cletus said:


> You are having sex at a rate that is at least 700% of the average for your age group.
> 
> This isn't Lake Wobegone.
> 
> I don't pretend to know why your life has always been like this. But on the other hand, I've never had to dump a girlfriend for the crazy either. Maybe there's a connection.


The main difference between @BluesPower and most of the rest of us middle age married guys is Blues is currently riding the wave of NRE while the rest of us have been with our current partner for 20-30+ years.

He's still in the phase that had Tom Cruise jumping up and down on Oprah Winfrey's couch when he started banging Katie Holms. (Which we all would if we were banging Katie Holms LOL)

The thing that separates Blues from the "sexless" men on this site is Blues actually fishes and doesn't wait to be given a fish and doesn't rely on the generosity of the fish to just jump into his boat. (This is taken from the "teach a man to fish" parable)

Men like Blues do not ask if women want to have sex.

Men like Blues do not wait until a woman is mysteriously "in the mood".

And most importantly, men like Blues do not remain yoked to women who truly do not want to have sex with them.

If a woman doesn't like sex with them and doesn't want a sex life with them, often times the woman will terminate the relationship because they don't like those men coming on to them all the time and always initiating sex with them. So the wen take themselves out if the equation most of the time themselves.

And if the women don't leave for whatever reason but reject them or only cough up occasional, starfish sex, then the men leave. 

Men like Blues accept that some women won't want them sexually and since sexuality is a critical component of their being, they let them go.

And if the woman wants to have a relationship with them sans sexuality but wants to keep the men around for support and provisions, the men are not afraid to dump them and accept the costs of ending the relationship.

The men in sexless relationships here do not ascribe to that philosophy and cling on to the relationship in desperate hopes that the woman will miraculously change her mind.

That is what separates Blues from the pack here in this specific site.


----------



## oldshirt

oldshirt said:


> That is what separates Blues from the pack here in this specific site.


But here is a critical point to make - 

There is no reason that any man can not be like that or do those things. Blues is not organically, genetically or fundamentally different than any other guy.

He did not come from another planet. He was not manufactured in a different factory and did not come from a different mold than anyone else. 

Any guy could do it. Some just don't want to.
Some don't believe they can. And some aren't willing to pay the price.

That's on them.


----------



## In Absentia

oldshirt said:


> But here is a critical point to make -
> 
> There is no reason that any man can not be like that or do those things. Blues is not organically, genetically or fundamentally different than any other guy.
> 
> He did not come from another planet. He was not manufactured in a different factory and did not come from a different mold than anyone else.
> 
> Any guy could do it. Some just don't want to.
> Some don't believe they can. And some aren't willing to pay the price.
> 
> That's on them.


Does @blues have kids? Not sure I remember this...


----------



## BluesPower

In Absentia said:


> Does @blues have kids? Not sure I remember this...


3 grown kids. None at home. Free and easy.


----------



## In Absentia

BluesPower said:


> 3 grown kids. None at home. Free and easy.


Sounds ideal... hopefully my next phase... :smile2:


----------



## oldshirt

oldshirt said:


> The main difference between @BluesPower and most of the rest of us middle age married guys is Blues is currently riding the wave of NRE while the rest of us have been with our current partner for 20-30+ years.
> 
> Men like Blues do not ask if women want to have sex.
> 
> Men like Blues do not wait until a woman is mysteriously "in the mood".


Here is another point I want to make about NRE.

Blues' NRE shall fade in time just like everyone else.

But he and men like him will still be sexually active and still have robust sex lives years down the road whether they remain in that relationship or whether that relationship dissolves and twy are in another one. 

It's because they don't ask and they do not wait for their partners to be horny and "give" them sex.

Sexuality, flirtation, sexy banter, seduction, foreplay and sex are a part of their daily lifestyles.

Flirtation, seduction and foreplay are 24 hour operations.

They do not get up and grudgingly go to work all day and then come home and plug on the couch like slugs and play video games or golf or drink with the buddies all day and all evening and then at the end ask the ol' lady if she wants to have sex.

Then get all butt hurt and Whiney when she invariably says no.

Men like Blues flirt and banter and seduce all day every day even if they don't know they're doing it.

Then they prolong a hug and maintain body contact and kiss intimately and touch and stimulate their women which will develop into stimulation and arousal.

Arousal and desire are generated. 

If their partner is generally attracted to and comfortable with him, she will respond positively.

If she is not, she will respond negatively.

Either way, she will respond.

If she chronically and systematically rejects and avoid him, the relationship will dissolve or he will find someone else who responds positively.


----------



## john117

oldshirt said:


> But here is a critical point to make -
> 
> There is no reason that any man can not be like that or do those things. Blues is not organically, genetically or fundamentally different than any other guy.
> 
> He did not come from another planet. He was not manufactured in a different factory and did not come from a different mold than anyone else.
> 
> Any guy could do it. Some just don't want to.
> Some don't believe they can. And some aren't willing to pay the price.
> 
> That's on them.


If they have the same relationship type as Blues, yes.

Kinda hard to NRE when the clock says 31 years.

Availability heuristic is your friend.


----------



## oldshirt

john117 said:


> If they have the same relationship type as Blues, yes.
> 
> Kinda hard to NRE when the clock says 31 years.
> 
> Availability heuristic is your friend.


NO.

You've missed my point completely.

It's not about NRE and it is not dependent on the relationship or what stage the relationship is at. 

NRE will fade but sexuality does not have to. It will invariably change over time but should not end.

My point is if people do the steps and perform the behaviors, sexuality does not end.

If someone does completely lose attraction and desire for their partner and can't be corrected with communication, then the choice is either live with it, seek sexuality elsewhere or end the relationship.

People who value sexuality and are not afraid of ending relationships and seeking new ones do not remain in sexless marriages.


----------



## In Absentia

Would @BluesPower behave in the same manner if he had 3 small children and a young wife? Would he leave his wife if she gave him a less than satisfactory level of sex but just about enough to "keep him going"? What if he found her incredibly attractive and she was her soul mate? At what level and at what stage do we leave a relationship if we are technically in a sexless marriage - twice/month? Do we stay hoping it's a phase and that it will improve? Do we leave 3 small children because we are only getting sex twice a month? Where do we draw the line? Do we keep persisting? Do we stick to the wows? Or do we swallow the red pill?


----------



## Buddy400

In Absentia said:


> Would @BluesPower behave in the same manner if he had 3 small children and a young wife? Would he leave his wife if she gave him a less than satisfactory level of sex but just about enough to "keep him going"? *What if he found her incredibly attractive and she was her soul mate?* At what level and at what stage do we leave a relationship if we are technically in a sexless marriage - twice/month? Do we stay hoping it's a phase and that it will improve? Do we leave 3 small children because we are only getting sex twice a month? Where do we draw the line? Do we keep persisting? Do we stick to the wows? Or do we swallow the red pill?


I may well stay married if I was in a bad sexual relationship with my young wife but had 3 small children.

What I don't get is the bolded.

Why does it matter that she's attractive if you can't have sex with her? There are lots of women even more attractive that you also can't have sex with.

How could someone who ignores your happiness be your soulmate?


----------



## john117

oldshirt said:


> NO.
> 
> You've missed my point completely.
> 
> It's not about NRE and it is not dependent on the relationship or what stage the relationship is at.
> 
> NRE will fade but sexuality does not have to. It will invariably change over time but should not end.
> 
> My point is if people do the steps and perform the behaviors, sexuality does not end.


You must be new to this Social Sciences thing ... Let me fix it for you...

"My point is if most people do the steps and perform the behaviors, sexuality may not end for those people assuming that they are able and willing - financially, socially, and culturally - to end their current relationship if needed"

Many people in 3 decade long relationships may not be able to, for practical reasons. If they are, like me, then good. If not...


----------



## In Absentia

Buddy400 said:


> What I don't get is the bolded.
> 
> Why does it matter that she's attractive if you can't have sex with her? There are lots of women even more attractive that you also can't have sex with.
> 
> How could someone who ignores your happiness be your soulmate?


It was in the context of staying vs. leaving and receiving the minimum amount of sex... finding your wife still incredibly attractive and still your soul mate, in a way, would surely complicate matters even more? Meaning, you would do whatever you can to try and turn your marriage around because your wife is still your ideal woman despite the limited sex? What @oldshirt said seems very limited in scope to me. Black and white. And it doesn't exist, IMHO. But I'm crap at explaining myself... :smile2:


----------



## BluesPower

In Absentia said:


> Would @BluesPower behave in the same manner if he had 3 small children and a young wife? Would he leave his wife if she gave him a less than satisfactory level of sex but just about enough to "keep him going"? What if he found her incredibly attractive and she was her soul mate? At what level and at what stage do we leave a relationship if we are technically in a sexless marriage - twice/month? Do we stay hoping it's a phase and that it will improve? Do we leave 3 small children because we are only getting sex twice a month? Where do we draw the line? Do we keep persisting? Do we stick to the wows? Or do we swallow the red pill?


Yes he would. However, as I said before, I never had a relationship where the sex was not both frequent and good. 

Now I am not perfect by any means, I put up with a lot of crap with my most recent ExW. Basically, she was completely crazy, and it took me years to finally figure that out. 

However, if we were not having sex I would have figured it out much sooner... my bad. 

I def appreciate @oldshirt 's points which explain my situation better than I could. I just never really thought about it until I started reading all the sexless threads. 

I actually am that way with women, use to be with a all of them but now it is just my GF. In a relationship I never allow a peck on the cheek, it is always a kiss, and it is passionate. I mean why not right? I am always affectionate, and frankly most women like this as they usually have a high need for affection as well. The ones that I have met, very few that did not have that need, did not last long. Affection is a high need for me.

I always meet their emotional needs, I actually like to hear them talk and they always need that. I am always dependable, always caring, you know all the stuff they like. 

And frankly, women that are into you want to be banged, it is just a fact. They want to fell desired and beautiful. I make them feel that way, because I actually like women and I think, with very few exceptions, that they are all beautiful. 

It is just kind of how my mind works...


----------



## oldshirt

In Absentia said:


> Would @BluesPower behave in the same manner if he had 3 small children and a young wife? Would he leave his wife if she gave him a less than satisfactory level of sex but just about enough to "keep him going"? What if he found her incredibly attractive and she was her soul mate? At what level and at what stage do we leave a relationship if we are technically in a sexless marriage - twice/month? Do we stay hoping it's a phase and that it will improve? Do we leave 3 small children because we are only getting sex twice a month? Where do we draw the line? Do we keep persisting? Do we stick to the wows? Or do we swallow the red pill?


For most men, sexuality is a key component of a relationship/marriage.

If the woman was not into him sexually, she would not be a soul mate.

And for me personally I would never marry or have children with a woman that did not desire me sexually.

My wife and I had awesome porn sex for several years before kids came along. Her first pregnancy was very difficult and her libido plummeted after first child came and it took about 2-3 years for her libido return to at least a healthy level.

Just as her drive was returning, we had an "OOPS!" and we had another unplanned pregnancy. And again her libido went into the abyss.

I didn't leave at that time because I figured her libido would eventually return. 

But what I did do was marched myself down to the urology clinic and had my plumbing disconnected to make sure there wasn't a #3.

What you sexless guys don't get about us sexual people is that sexuality plays a key component in all aspects of our lives and is part of pretty much every decision and choice we make.

Sexuality is not an after thought and it is not not something that gets put in the shelf if the lawn needs mowed or the oil needs changes in the car or if some woman would rather watch the Kardashians rather than have sex. 

We make accommodations for sex and do not sacrifice sexuality for other things. 

We make sacrifices for sexuality. 

I could probably still be with my high school sweetheart today as long as I bought her things, do what she says and never try to have sex with her. 

I would have lived the last 30 years sexless (other than procreating kids) like you and Uhtred and RMY, I could say that I have been married for 30+ years and have a bunch of kids. 

As it's been, I have been through the break ups of several relationships, have the ejection handle within arm's reach in my current marriage and only have 2 kids.

It's all about values and priorities.


----------



## BluesPower

In Absentia said:


> It was in the context of staying vs. leaving and receiving the minimum amount of sex... finding your wife still incredibly attractive and still your soul mate, in a way, would surely complicate matters even more? Meaning, you would do whatever you can to try and turn your marriage around because your wife is still your ideal woman despite the limited sex? What @oldshirt said seems very limited in scope to me. Black and white. And it doesn't exist, IMHO. But I'm crap at explaining myself... :smile2:


Oh and one point I missed on this one... 

No woman could ever be my "Soul Mate" if she did not want to bang my brains out. I mean that does not even enter the realm of possibility.


----------



## oldshirt

BluesPower said:


> Oh and one point I missed on this one...
> 
> No woman could ever be my "Soul Mate" if she did not want to bang my brains out. I mean that does not even enter the realm of possibility.


Before it even gets to the realm of soul mate, it would have to cross the 4th date.

I have never made it to a 4th date without tangible, real-world, physical signs if sexual attraction .

By the 4th date, I am either being told that she doesn't feel for me "that way" and I am given the LJBF to which I walk away.

Or if I'm not feeling it or don't see solid, tangible signs of attraction, I move on.

I don't do friends in the dating, single life (FWBs of course, but never LJBF). And I don't do roommates in married life.

I'm assuming a soulmate would imply that there would be a 4th date. I've never gotten to a 4th date without sexual attraction and desire.


----------



## NobodySpecial

BluesPower said:


> Yes he would. However, as I said before, I never had a relationship where the sex was not both frequent and good.


Out of curiosity, not making any kind of judgement or statement, what is your longest relationship?


----------



## BluesPower

NobodySpecial said:


> Out of curiosity, not making any kind of judgement or statement, what is your longest relationship?


26 years...


----------



## PigglyWiggly

BluesPower said:


> 26 years...


I think you said that you were having good and frequent sex with your ex-wife even when the marriage was in shambles. Is that correct?


----------



## BluesPower

PigglyWiggly said:


> I think you said that you were having good and frequent sex with your ex-wife even when the marriage was in shambles. Is that correct?


Yes, that is true. Kind of makes me puke up a little now, but it was true. 

I actually think the only thing that did keep that marriage together was the sex. I did love her a great deal at one time...


----------



## PigglyWiggly

BluesPower said:


> Yes, that is true. Kind of makes me puke up a little now, but it was true.
> 
> I actually think the only thing that did keep that marriage together was the sex. I did love her a great deal at one time...


I honestly think there is much better sex to be had. I don't see how you could have emotional intimacy with someone in a downhill marriage. Sexual intimacy, yes but not emotional intimacy as described here.

https://goodmenproject.com/featured...ional-intimacy-do-you-know-the-difference-dg/

After having all 4 types, I have had to reconsider what I thought good sex to be. Of course, everyone has a their own metric for good sex so I am not saying my metric should be yours. Yours is obviously working for you so bang on


----------



## oldshirt

So let me reference the link in my OP to at least tie the current conversation back in to the topic of the original thread. 

I have the feeling if Blues or @dadstartingover or I were to find out our wives had written those posts with that level of vitriol and discuss about sex, I would bet we would cut losses, lawyer up, file paperwork and walk. 

Where as I think the sexless guys would bump up the housekeeping and child rearing duties to astronomical levels and do everything they could to make the women feel safe and comfortable and to not put any pressure or any sexual expectations on them in hopes of getting on their good side. 

Sexual people value romantic/sexual connection chemistry and would see the futility and would know that they would probably never be able to achieve a "good" Sexlife. 

Where as the sexless value remaining together at all cost and value comfort and not rocking the boat or having anyone upset with them.


----------



## Cletus

BluesPower said:


> Yes, that is true. Kind of makes me puke up a little now, but it was true.
> 
> I actually think the only thing that did keep that marriage together was the sex. I did love her a great deal at one time...


This is why your sex life is so "good". Because you value it above all else in a relationship.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## uhtred

Surely attractiveness has value outside of sex. A Maserati is attractive, but I don't want to have sex with one. 

I enjoy spending time with attractive women with whom I have no intention of ever having sex. 





Buddy400 said:


> I may well stay married if I was in a bad sexual relationship with my young wife but had 3 small children.
> 
> What I don't get is the bolded.
> 
> Why does it matter that she's attractive if you can't have sex with her? There are lots of women even more attractive that you also can't have sex with.
> 
> How could someone who ignores your happiness be your soulmate?


----------



## uhtred

I think this is key. There are a lot of trade-offs in life. Its very difficult to have everything so sometimes one thin or another must be given up. 

Whether or not a good sex life is on the list of things that someone is willing to do without entirely depends on the person. Its possible for sex to be important, but not so important that it outweighs other considerations.



Cletus said:


> This is why your sex life is so "good". Because you value it above all else in a relationship.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## oldshirt

Cletus said:


> This is why your sex life is so "good". Because you value it above all else in a relationship.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


"Above all else" is in the eye of the beholder and may or may not be accurate.

But if someone does strongly value sexuality and the sex is good, then that definately is a point for the home team. 

For me, if the sex is good, I may not be able to overlook the fact that someone is a puppy kicker or a child molester or a cheater or a druggie etc etc, But I would be willing to accept quite a bit of irritating habits or other issues that may cause relationship stresses.

The old adage, " I wouldn't kick her out of bed for eating crackers" is very applicable if she is hot and the sex is good. 

Conversely, if the sex is bad or nonexistent, I couldn't care less how well someone cooks or cleans house or how many advanced degrees they have or how good of a professional they etc etc and I couldn't care less how good someone's sense of humor is or how giving they are to sick and starving orphans. 

I can either do those things on my own or I have other friends and family to take care of those interests.

For someone to be my special someone, the sex has to be there. That is what makes my special someone special. Everyone else is just another person and there are 6 billion of those on the planet.


----------



## 269370

BluesPower said:


> Oh and one point I missed on this one...
> 
> 
> 
> No woman could ever be my "Soul Mate" if she did not want to bang my brains out. I mean that does not even enter the realm of possibility.




The problem with me was always that almost all women who wanted to bang me, those were the ones that I didn’t particularly want to bang back. While I think all women are beautiful, I have a very specific type and there’s not a lot of flexibility...It’s not just a physical type but mainly character features. I know there are many men who have a very wide filter; I’m not one of those men.

I guess it depends what I am looking for as well: for family, companionship, support and regular ‘adult’ stuff: I have a very specific filter. And if at some point I needed a woman to ‘have a good time with’, I would be looking for different qualities. That’s not to say I can’t have a good time with my wife; on the contrary, I’m not sure I could separate emotional intimacy from physical. She is not only the mother of my children but also the one woman I ever wanted and ever put all my efforts in to be with.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Personal

oldshirt said:


> That is what separates Blues from the pack here in this specific site.


He isn't a unicorn, nor do I think his experience is exceptional.

I have never been in a limited sex or sexless, sexual relationship, and I've always enjoyed a smorgasbord of frequent sex throughput all of my sexual relationships (inclusive of two marriages).

Likewise I will also never find myself in a limited sex or sexless, sexual relationship either. Simply because I am not inclined to humour such ridiculous nonsense.

It's so easy to have oodles of enthusiastic, high quality sex with different women. Just as it is so easy to have women who will enthusiastically do pretty much anything sexually you want them to do. I have never experienced anything less than that, with all of the women I have been with.

The men who are convinced that it can't be had, seem to be the ones who have lame sex lives with limited frequency. Whereas the men who are convinced it can always be had, seem to be the ones who have tremendous sex lives with high frequency.


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## john117

Reality fairy says...

Nobody walks down the altar knowing that "to love and to hold" means once a month.

Such tendencies develop over years even decades. 

Also, nobody chooses a partner on sexual prowess alone. It's a sum of all parts, not merely one or two.

All the sex in the world won't make up for living in a McMansion in the rust belt while I could be enjoying all the things I wanted to do for decades. All the same, all the sex in the world in our little love nest in Lincoln Park won't matter much if we're too broke to afford anything.


----------



## Personal

In Absentia said:


> Would @BluesPower behave in the same manner if he had 3 small children and a young wife? Would he leave his wife if she gave him a less than satisfactory level of sex but just about enough to "keep him going"? What if he found her incredibly attractive and she was her soul mate? At what level and at what stage do we leave a relationship if we are technically in a sexless marriage - twice/month? Do we stay hoping it's a phase and that it will improve? Do we leave 3 small children because we are only getting sex twice a month? Where do we draw the line? Do we keep persisting? Do we stick to the wows? Or do we swallow the red pill?


There is no way in hell I would continue to maintain a sexual relationship with any woman if the sex sucked and or the frequency was generally less than 4x a week and I am used to getting a lot more than that with kids or not.

Two women have had my children, and through all of their pregnancies with me and afterwards. The sex remained frequent, ever varied, enthusiastic, deeply wanton and lots of fun.

As to soul mates, I have had tremendous ongoing sexual relationships with a number of women. More than one can and have been wonderful, it really isn't difficult to find and have great sexual relationships with different women. There is no one person, all of us can be easily replaced or supplemented.

If a woman who is in a sexual relationship with me, isn't keen to be ****ed silly by me and reciprocally **** me silly as well. I'm not going to waste my time hoping for improvement, if they're not feeling it then it's time to start ****ing other people.


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## BluesPower

Cletus said:


> This is why your sex life is so "good". Because you value it above all else in a relationship.


You know, I do value sexual chemistry highly, that is no doubt. 

I also find that most of the time if the sexual chemistry is good, chemistry in other areas will usually be good as well. Not always, but a lot of the time. 

I make no apologies for valuing sex in a relationship highly. It is above all else, I don't necessarily think so, but... if you don't have good sexual chemistry what is the point about the rest?

And if you do have sexual chemistry, a LOT of other things will sort themselves out.


----------



## Personal

Cletus said:


> This is why your sex life is so "good". Because you value it above all else in a relationship.


I certainly don't value sex above all else in a relationship.

That said I do value sex as above all else in sexual relationship. So that includes dating, hooking up, friends with benefits, sexual partners, affairs, engagements, marriage and de facto relationships etc.

I cannot understand why anyone wouldn't consider sex to be the most important part of any sexual relationship. I guess that's why I have always had a terrific sex life, whereas those who feel differently haven't.


----------



## oldshirt

Personal said:


> I certainly don't value sex above all else in a relationship.
> 
> That said I do value sex as above all else in sexual relationship. So that includes dating, hooking up, friends with benefits, sexual partners, affairs, engagements, marriage and de facto relationships etc.
> 
> I cannot understand why anyone wouldn't consider sex to be the most important part of any sexual relationship. I guess that's why I have always had a terrific sex life, whereas those who feel differently haven't.


Yes.

The problem with these sexless guys is they can't differentiate between a friendship/roommate relationship and a romantics/sexual relationship.

There for they don't realize what they have a is a friendship and and not a full-service relationship.


----------



## john117

Personal said:


> I cannot understand why anyone wouldn't consider sex to be the most important part of any sexual relationship. I guess that's why I have always had a terrific sex life, whereas those who feel differently haven't.


If it's the most important part, why marry?

My old roommate from my birth country did just that. Different woman every week in college, often twice his age. Took a job in Beaverton OR to be close to the - not kidding - the free love comnune of Rajneesh or something.

Worked as a tech manager and retired at 50 to chase more skirts in Europe.

Well, he also lived in the same apartment in Beaverton and drove the same Toyota sporty car for 15 years. No professional accomplishments to speak of, just lucked out and retired early.

I think overall I feel I accomplished far more. I accomplished far more professionally, raised two wonderful girls, made more money, and did have a good marriage and life in the McMansion.

The last few years weren't optimal and we addressed that in a relatively amicable way. If I wanted sex 4x a week I would have stayed in my village, married a stocky, reliable, cute, and non-demanding girl, offered her a few years in America, and we'd be happy as clams. 

To each his own I suppose.


----------



## Buddy400

uhtred said:


> Surely attractiveness has value outside of sex. A Maserati is attractive, but I don't want to have sex with one.


It's nice to look at but, if I can't drive it, I could look at pictures on the internet occasionally.



uhtred said:


> I enjoy spending time with attractive women with whom I have no intention of ever having sex.


Same as above.

If I'm just going to spend time with a woman, I'd prefer spending time with one who is interesting.

If I had a choice between spending time with two equally interesting women, I'd choose the less attractive. Who needs the distraction?


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## NobodySpecial

In Absentia said:


> It was in the context of staying vs. leaving and receiving the minimum amount of sex... finding your wife still incredibly attractive and still your soul mate, in a way, would surely complicate matters even more? Meaning, you would do whatever you can to try and turn your marriage around because your wife is still your ideal woman despite the limited sex?


For ME, I could not have a soul mate with whom I was not having sexual intimacy. Intimacy (and I do mean Intimacy as more than just a synonym for sex but which sex is a sub component) attractiveness. Attractiveness is pretty shallow.


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## Personal

john117 said:


> If it's the most important part, why marry?


Why not? In my experience marriage is not incompatible with a kaleidoscope of varied and ever frequent high quality sex.

Likewise if one is wanting to enjoy a smorgasbord of other sexual partners, marriage doesn't have to preclude that either.


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## Personal

Buddy400 said:


> If I had a choice between spending time with two equally interesting women, I'd choose the less attractive. Who needs the distraction?


Given the same choice, I would choose the more attractive one.


----------



## john117

Personal said:


> Why not? In my experience marriage is not incompatible with a kaleidoscope of varied and ever frequent high quality sex.
> 
> Likewise if one is wanting to enjoy a smorgasbord of other sexual partners, marriage doesn't have to preclude that either.


You must be new to this thing called American family law...


----------



## oldshirt

Personal said:


> Why not? In my experience marriage is not incompatible with a kaleidoscope of varied and ever frequent high quality sex.
> 
> Likewise if one is wanting to enjoy a smorgasbord of other sexual partners, marriage doesn't have to preclude that either.


TRUTH!!!

Sometimes I think one of the main reasons for sexless marriages is that people actually expect it to be.


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## oldshirt

john117 said:


> You must be new to this thing called American family law...


What law is this???

I have had sex with a lot more people after marriage than before it and I have not had any police knocking at my door.


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## john117

oldshirt said:


> TRUTH!!!
> 
> Sometimes I think one of the main reasons for sexless marriages is that people actually expect it to be.


Nobody expects it to be, and it doesn't happen overnight. 

It would be helpful to actually get input from people who have gone thru the wringer... The suggestions coming remind me of the "it's your fault", "wash more dishes", "180", "divorce yesterday", and many other pieces of well intended, but largely inapplicable advise.


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## john117

oldshirt said:


> What law is this???
> 
> I have had sex with a lot more people after marriage than before it and I have not had any police knocking at my door.


Most American wives tend to frown upon their partner sleeping around like a tomcat. While many states are no fault, many are fault or consider it, meaning such perceived infidelity can have catastrophic impact on one's divorce proceedings.

A very small percentage of marriages enjoy the lifestyle, but in reality the practical aspects are not to be ignored.

"In the States of Wisconsin, Oregon, Washington, Nevada, Nebraska, Montana, Missouri, Minnesota, Michigan, Kentucky, Kansas, Iowa, Indiana, Hawaii, Florida, Colorado and California, a person seeking a divorce is not permitted to allege a fault-based ground (e.g. adultery, abandonment or cruelty).[25]"


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## personofinterest

john117 said:


> oldshirt said:
> 
> 
> 
> TRUTH!!!
> 
> Sometimes I think one of the main reasons for sexless marriages is that people actually expect it to be.
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody expects it to be, and it doesn't happen overnight.
> 
> It would be helpful to actually get input from people who have gone thru the wringer... The suggestions coming remind me of the "it's your fault", "wash more dishes", "180", "divorce yesterday", and many other pieces of well intended, but largely inapplicable advise.
Click to expand...

This


----------



## oldshirt

john117 said:


> Most American wives tend to frown upon their partner sleeping around like a tomcat. While many states are no fault, many are fault or consider it, meaning such perceived infidelity can have catastrophic impact on one's divorce proceedings.
> 
> A very small percentage of marriages enjoy the lifestyle, but in reality the practical aspects are not to be ignored.
> 
> "In the States of Wisconsin, Oregon, Washington, Nevada, Nebraska, Montana, Missouri, Minnesota, Michigan, Kentucky, Kansas, Iowa, Indiana, Hawaii, Florida, Colorado and California, a person seeking a divorce is not permitted to allege a fault-based ground (e.g. adultery, abandonment or cruelty).[25]"


I really wasn't referring to adultery or tomcatting around. 

If someone is sex positive, has good interpersonal and communication skills and is willing to address their sexuality openly and be willing to have the scary discussions with their partner, there a whole world of sexual expression out there that is not a simple monogamous marriage vs divorce decision tree.

There is open marriage, swinging, polyamory, don't-ask-don't-tell etc etc and the list goes on and on. 

You never know until you take the chance and ask and are willing to lay it out there and discuss it openly and thoroughly. 

And even in cases of divorce, I really have no heartache for these guys that whine that they'll have to pay child support or lose the couch if they get divorced.

Yeah, you father children, you are going to have to support them. You'll pay to feed, house and clothe them if you divorce just like you'll pay if you stay married.

Don't want to pay alimony?? Marry a woman that has her own education and career. 

Don't want to lose the couch? Make a deal on the law mower and throw in a few extra pots and pans. 

Yeah, marital property is going to get divided. Is the court going to intentionally "punish" anyone??

Maybe if they think you are trying to screw them and trying to hide assets and squibbling over petty crap just to hurt your STBX. 

If people act like rational, reasonable human beings the court just wants it over with as quickly, efficiently and fairly as possible. The more the couple can work out fairly and peacefully between themselves, the more cooperative the court will be. 

Courts are obligated to try to keep people out of court as much as possible. That means it's not in their interest to screw people over because those people will be back on appeals. 

I'm willing to bet that 9 times out of 10 if the court tried to screw some dude in a divorce, it's because that dude is trying to hide assets and trying to screw the court and trying to make his STBX suffer needlessly and is hiring the biggest slime ball lawyer to try to make everyone's life miserable. 

If you don't wanna lose your favorite recliner with your personalized buttgroove in a divorce, put it in a prenup or better yet don't get married in the first place. If your not willing to get a D then don't marry because D is a fact of modern life and it is the surest ticket out of a miserable marriage and the most efficient and effective way to get away from someone that doesn't want to touch you with a ten foot pole and to be able to find someone that does want to touch you.

And if you aren't willing to find someone that loves and desires you because you are afraid of losing that couch, then frankly as far as I am concerned you deserve to remain yoked to someone that can't stand to touch you.


----------



## oldshirt

......phew, that was my rant and word-vomit for the day. My fingers are kinda sore from banging the touchscreen but otherwise I feel a lot better getting that off my chest LOL :-D


----------



## oldshirt

.....and while I'm riled up and have a a bit of a burr under my saddle, do you wanna know how I found out my wife was open to the idea of swing after ten years of traditional marriage and two young children????

I asked her.

I asked her about it and had a series of long, serious, open and honest discussions with her about it.

I asked her about her interests and desires as well as her fears and concerns and boundaries and I listened to her answers.

Then I openly and honestly shared my interests and desires as well as my fears and concerns and boundaries.

Do you think that I did not have any fears and trepidation a about bringing up that topic?????

Do you think that I wasn't as nervous as a mouse at a catshow walking into a swingers club for the first time?

Do you think it wasn't a risk on many levels?

Life has risks and life is full of things that are scary and uncomfortable. 

The courageous has no less fear and no less apprehension or self-doubt than the coward. The courageous just does it despite of the fear. 

My first venture into the swinging world was at a swing club on the border where I was the only Caucasian man that didn't speak Spanish. I have no sympathy and no quarter for any man that fears standing up for his sexuality because he's afraid of losing a couch in a divorce from a woman that is disgusted by his touch.


----------



## Personal

oldshirt said:


> .....and while I'm riled up and have a a bit of a burr under my saddle, do you wanna know how I found out my wife was open to the idea of swing after ten years of traditional marriage and two young children????
> 
> I asked her.


Which is how it works, you put things to them, they think about it and then...


----------



## john117

Your optimism is duly noted. I know of several men that got raped by the family court system, so allow me to be sceptical.

In my birth country, adultery is rather common. Needless to say, a lot fewer women are suffering from headache, and a lot fewer men from ED. The courts rarely award much of anything and it's not like everyone there has money to begin with.

You mentioned several lifestyles that I'm not sure are as prevalent as one may think. If one is working a low skilled, low pay job, the payout isn't a whole lot anyway, but a high earning professional is shark lawyer fodder. 

Besides, we were placed on Earth for what I hope is a higher purpose. To leave it better than how we found it, be it via our work, our actions, our children, etc. Recreational procreation, while important, is not worth it to a lot of people to become a lifestyle. 

Regardless, one should be cognizant of their own situation versus other people's situations, and should strive to offer suggestions that are actually experience based and have a good chance of being used. Jumping to conclusions without understanding the very basic mechanics of someone else's relationship dynamics is not very productive. "Don't get married", while sound advise, is hardly applicable I'm afraid. It's like my daughter telling her patients, "don't get sick". That's not how it works.

For two decades almost I drove my prized Saab 900 turbo SPG. And was very active on the Saab forum. Every once in a while I'd ask a question about how to fix this and usually get a solid answer. Once in a while we'd get someone with little experience on them Swedish vehicles offering sage advice . True, Saabs and Camrys have 4 wheels and a horn, but a lot of similarities end quickly once you understand the respective vehicles. TAM, for various reasons, seems to be attracting a lot of Camrys in my opinion.


----------



## john117

Ah, swinging.

Ask me how my s-wife's cousin the rocket scientist did with that.

His wife gained a bunch of weight after their kid. And stopped sex. She let him know that, wink wink, he could look elsewhere. Like the smart PhD aerospace engineering that he was, he fell for it. Hit on a chick in a bar, took her to a hotel. Except his wife's private gumshoe was behind them. Took a bunch of obligatory 8x10s and the rest is history. The guy was truly taken to the cleaners, lost his house in the process (at fault state) and ended up downsized when his program was cancelled. Went from mid six figures to a fraction. His ex hired a personal trainer and lost the weight, and is living with her stud in his house. Ah, she also hid a staggering amount of money in the years before the divorce.

So, I'm not saying all women are like her. All the same, very few women are truly open to such lifestyles, and more often than not, we pick up the juicy embers here.


----------



## oldshirt

john117 said:


> Your optimism is duly noted. I know of several men that got raped by the family court system, so allow me to be sceptical.
> 
> In my birth country, adultery is rather common. Needless to say, a lot fewer women are suffering from headache, and a lot fewer men from ED. The courts rarely award much of anything and it's not like everyone there has money to begin with.
> 
> You mentioned several lifestyles that I'm not sure are as prevalent as one may think. If one is working a low skilled, low pay job, the payout isn't a whole lot anyway, but a high earning professional is shark lawyer fodder.
> 
> Besides, we were placed on Earth for what I hope is a higher purpose. To leave it better than how we found it, be it via our work, our actions, our children, etc. Recreational procreation, while important, is not worth it to a lot of people to become a lifestyle.
> 
> Regardless, one should be cognizant of their own situation versus other people's situations, and should strive to offer suggestions that are actually experience based and have a good chance of being used. Jumping to conclusions without understanding the very basic mechanics of someone else's relationship dynamics is not very productive. "Don't get married", while sound advise, is hardly applicable I'm afraid. It's like my daughter telling her patients, "don't get sick". That's not how it works.
> 
> For two decades almost I drove my prized Saab 900 turbo SPG. And was very active on the Saab forum. Every once in a while I'd ask a question about how to fix this and usually get a solid answer. Once in a while we'd get someone with little experience on them Swedish vehicles offering sage advice . True, Saabs and Camrys have 4 wheels and a horn, but a lot of similarities end quickly once you understand the respective vehicles. TAM, for various reasons, seems to be attracting a lot of Camrys in my opinion.


The reason saying, "don't get sick" isn't helpful is because everyone gets sick and everyone dies.

Remaining unmarried is a viable choice. 

And if if one does choose to marry, which many if not most will, divorce is also a reality that many if not most will face. 

If divorce is something one can not accept, then advising forgoing marriage is legitimate advice.

And even if one is undaunted and insists upon marriage despite the risks, then there are steps that can be taken to mitigate some of the costs of D such as prenups, separate accounts and finances, spouse of equal income/income potential, minimizing the number of children, maintaining separate properties etc etc. 

The best way to secure peace is to be prepared for war.


----------



## In Absentia

john117 said:


> Nobody expects it to be, and it doesn't happen overnight.
> 
> It would be helpful to actually get input from people who have gone thru the wringer... The suggestions coming remind me of the "it's your fault", "wash more dishes", "180", "divorce yesterday", and many other pieces of well intended, but largely inapplicable advise.


yes, it's funny how all this wonderful advice always come from people who haven't been in the situation... and would be prepared to leave 4 kids and a wife because they are not getting sex 4 times a week... it's not black and white. Relationships evolve. You do get on with your wife, even after 30 years, but you having sex only twice a month and you want more. But that's the compromise. Should I pack my bags? Leave my children and all I have built all these years? And apparently, if I don't I'm not even entitled to complain or vent... because I'm a doormat.


Having said that, I appreciate the many different points of view... :smile2:


----------



## Personal

In Absentia said:


> yes, it's funny how all this wonderful advice always come from people who haven't been in the situation... and would be prepared to leave 4 kids and a wife because they are not getting sex 4 times a week... it's not black and white. Relationships evolve. You do get on with your wife, even after 30 years, but you having sex only twice a month and you want more. But that's the compromise. Should I pack my bags? Leave my children and all I have built all these years? And apparently, if I don't I'm not even entitled to complain or vent... because I'm a doormat.


Advice from those who are successful at what they are offering advice in. is far more useful than advice proffered by those who aren't successful at it.

As to this twice a month crud, I've had sex with my wife twice today so far, once before she went to see a surgeon (at her initiation) and once afterwards (at my initiation).

We've also got kids (who are so far doing very well), plus we have decades in together, we have shared several different addresses throughout our marriage and have/had demanding and interesting full time careers. With busy lives, considerable responsibility for things and nice renumeration.

If you settle for less, you will certainly get less.


----------



## In Absentia

Personal said:


> Advice from those who are successful at what they are offering advice in. is far more useful than advice proffered by those who aren't successful at it.
> 
> As to this twice a month crud, I've had sex with my wife twice today so far, once before she went to see a surgeon (at her initiation) and once afterwards (at my initiation).
> 
> We've also got kids (who are so far doing very well), plus we have decades in together, we have shared several different addresses throughout our marriage and have/had demanding and interesting full time careers. With busy lives, considerable responsibility for things and nice renumeration.
> 
> If you settle for less, you will certainly get less.


Again, have you been in a marriage with kids and less than ideal sex? If you have, I welcome your advice, otherwise it's just hot air, because you have no idea... and yes, I did do the dishes...


----------



## Personal

In Absentia said:


> Again, have you been in a marriage with kids and less than ideal sex? If you have, I welcome your advice, otherwise it's just hot air, because you have no idea... *and yes, I did do the dishes...*


:surprise::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Many years ago I was in a marriage, where I had a wife that ****ed another man on one occasion while I was away earning a living. In response I ended our marital relationship (we even had a toddler together at that time as well).

I don't tolerate infidelity, just as I won't tolerate inadequate sex.

As to doing the dishes, anyone that thinks doing the dishes will get them sex is deeply mistaken.

While ever you are not assertive, while ever you do not stand your ground, while ever you act in an insipid and needy way and all the rest that comes with your acquiescence. You will always face the problem of finding yourself in a limited sex or sexless relationship whoever you are with.

There is no magic switch solution for what is inherent within your erroneous beliefs.

Change your actions and change your mind so as not to behave as you do and you might have a slim chance. While ever you keep wanting to hear from guys mired with a mindset that finds them in your situation, you will never get out of this misery of your own making.

Maybe one day you might actually want out of the situation you are in, that said if that day ever comes and you actually do something about it and I hear about it. I will be honestly surprised, since I doubt you are going to go there.


----------



## In Absentia

Personal said:


> :surprise::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
> 
> Many years ago I was in a marriage, where I had a wife that ****ed another man on one occasion while I was away earning a living. In response I ended our marital relationship (we even had a toddler together at that time as well).
> 
> I don't tolerate infidelity, just as I won't tolerate inadequate sex.
> 
> As to doing the dishes, anyone that thinks doing the dishes will get them sex is deeply mistaken.
> 
> While ever you are not assertive, while ever you do not stand your ground, while ever you act in an insipid and needy way and all the rest that comes with your acquiescence. You will always face the problem of finding yourself in a limited sex or sexless relationship whoever you are with.
> 
> There is no magic switch solution for what is inherent within your erroneous beliefs.
> 
> Change your actions and change your mind so as not to behave as you do and you might have a slim chance. While ever you keep wanting to hear from guys mired with a mindset that finds them in your situation, you will never get out of this misery of your own making.
> 
> Maybe one day you might actually want out of the situation you are in, that said if that day ever comes and you actually do something about it and I hear about it. I will be honestly surprised, since I doubt you are going to go there.


I'm already out...  BTW, I forgot to put a smiley face after "I did the dishes"... :laugh: But I'll tell you something. You talk about being assertive, my marriage went wrong because I was assertive. Going for "doormat" to assertive has had the opposite effect. I guess, the marriage was already dead because nothing worked. And leaving a marriage for infidelity is clearly a much better reason than leaving for unsatisfactory sex life. Or not?

It's not all black and white. My "mistake" was not leaving sooner... but I wanted to be with my kids. Worth it? Hell, yes...


----------



## personofinterest

God, the arrogance of people who have never struggled with a sexless marriage honestly triggers me to the point that I get nauseous. You don't know what you would tolerate until you're actually in the situation. If you have never gone months without being touched, use never cried and begged the person who his supposed to love you to please pay attention to you, and you've never tried to make yourself perfect to be good enough for 6, then you don't know what the h*** you are talking about. When you have a partner who is willing, the reason it's works is because you have a partner who is willing. DE! When you are married to someone who does not care about sex and does not care enough about you to step up to the plate anyway, then what in the heck is the person who is starving supposed to do? And don't say divorce. I'm not talking about that period I got so sick of hearing that if I just did X long enough or did X well enough everything would magically be wonderful. Know… it wouldn't… and the people who kept telling me that either had partners who liked sex or they were so married to a cult like approach that they were blind. Or, up most commonly, there were people who also didn't care about sex. It seems to me women in particular who have a blah attitude about 6 are the ones always telling men to wash the dishes lol. At any rate, this idea that I have lots of 6 so I am the authority to tell you how to get 6 is ridiculous. Please just stop.


----------



## aine

I read somewhere " if you count the number of times you are having sex, then you are not having it enough." 

This is me nowadays, lucky if it is once a week. My H is having problems with ED, (it is really bothering him, he also says his libido has reduced). 
I have hit menopause almost and for some reason am raring to go. Have always been quite sexual, sex was one of the good things in our marriage, we have many problems but that was not one of them, any time any place if you catch my drift.
He has changed so much, age is really catching up with him (he was once very muscular and manly, I note now even his muscles are wasting a bit as he has stopped exercise and he is only 52). 
As a woman, I sometimes can't help if he were to meet a much younger woman would it make a difference, is it me? I am still attractive, look younger than my age, have put on some weight but not obese.
He says he loves my body and it is all him. Yet...............


----------



## 269370

The thing is that everyone’s sexless marriage is sexless for a huge number of different reasons.

‘Those sexless marriage guys....’ is such a weird and useless catch all phrase.

Also many really do believe it is all down to them why their wife is having more sex with them. This reminds me of the pigeon superstition experiment.
Some of it is down to them, for sure, but perhaps 10-20% or so.

I’m under no illusions that the reason we now have a really great and passionate sex life is due to both of us: me finally figuring out stuff about myself and about what turns her on but mainly my wife’s willingness to make an effort (and to LET me turn her on) that she previously didn’t think was important enough or worth the bother. Communication was a huge part of it too.

https://youtu.be/8uPmeWiFTIw




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

aine said:


> I read somewhere " if you count the number of times you are having sex, then you are not having it enough."
> 
> This is me nowadays, lucky if it is once a week. My H is having problems with ED, (it is really bothering him, he also says his libido has reduced).
> I have hit menopause almost and for some reason am raring to go. Have always been quite sexual, sex was one of the good things in our marriage, we have many problems but that was not one of them, any time any place if you catch my drift.
> He has changed so much, age is really catching up with him (he was once very muscular and manly, I note now even his muscles are wasting a bit as he has stopped exercise and he is only 52).
> As a woman, I sometimes can't help if he were to meet a much younger woman would it make a difference, is it me? I am still attractive, look younger than my age, have put on some weight but not obese.
> He says he loves my body and it is all him. Yet...............


The not wanting to exercise is a shame. Men lose muscle mass significantly after age 40. It is harder to keep up, so it can be demotivating. But its actually more important. There are health benefits that go way beyond just looking attractive. Weight training also helps maintain T, so it's a good way to counteract that little bit of age related degradation. It's no coincidence that a precipitous drop in desire is often accompanied by a drop in exercise.


----------



## In Absentia

aine said:


> I have hit menopause almost and for some reason am raring to go.


Can you tell that to my wife? She is completely off sex with the menopause... from 20% to 0%... :|


----------



## Personal

In Absentia said:


> It's not all black and white. My "mistake" was not leaving sooner... but I wanted to be with my kids. Worth it? Hell, yes...


It's never too late to end an ongoing crappy marriage. If you really wanted out earlier on, you would have done exactly that.

As to being with your kids, do you understand that divorce does not stop that?


----------



## In Absentia

Personal said:


> It's never too late to end an ongoing crappy marriage. If you really wanted out earlier on, you would have done exactly that.
> 
> As to being with your kids, do you understand that divorce does not stop that?


Of course! I didn't want out earlier, otherwise I would have done that! I didn't have a totally sexless marriage. That would have been a deal breaker. I did have enough sex. Not the amount I wanted, but it was enough. It wasn't every day or every week, but it was enough to keep the connection going. Of course people who have never been in a marriage with little sex would tell you to leave. Sex is important to me, but obviously not as important as for some of you lucky guys... if you have a partner who is into you, then you don't have a problem. You come here and tell us: look at me. I'm God on earth and I can command all the sex in the world. I wouldn't put up with this and that. You are weak. Cheers. But there is a tiny little detail: you don't know what's it like. So, pontificating comes easy.


----------



## Livvie

In Absentia said:


> Personal said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's never too late to end an ongoing crappy marriage. If you really wanted out earlier on, you would have done exactly that.
> 
> As to being with your kids, do you understand that divorce does not stop that?
> 
> 
> 
> Of course! I didn't want out earlier, otherwise I would have done that! I didn't have a totally sexless marriage. That would have been a deal breaker. I did have enough sex. Not the amount I wanted, but it was enough. It wasn't every day or every week, but it was enough to keep the connection going. Of course people who have never been in a marriage with little sex would tell you to leave. Sex is important to me, but obviously not as important as for some of you lucky guys... if you have a partner who is into you, then you don't have a problem. You come here and tell us: look at me. I'm God on earth and I can command all the sex in the world. I wouldn't put up with this and that. You are weak. Cheers. But there is a tiny little detail: you don't know what's it like. So, pontificating comes easy.
Click to expand...

I don't see anyone pontificating. I see men sharing that: they have left relationships that weren't highly sexual because it didn't work for them; men who have communicate in no uncertain terms in their relationships that they absolutely would take various actions in the event the relationship did become less sexual; and what they do on their end to ensure sex is always on the menu.

You call them "lucky". It sounds that in addition to luck, they have worked hard at making sure their relationships are sexually satisfying.

Some of them DO know what it's like, as they have left sexual relationships that do not meet their sexual needs.


----------



## NobodySpecial

inmyprime said:


> The thing is that everyone’s sexless marriage is sexless for a huge number of different reasons.
> 
> ‘Those sexless marriage guys....’ is such a weird and useless catch all phrase.
> 
> Also many really do believe it is all down to them why their wife is having more sex with them.


This may be so or not. I don't know. But the thing is, like it or not, the only thing that they can change is themselves. One somewhat common block is to think that acceptance of "responsibility" is the same as acceptance of blame. So the conversation gets locked in one of why and how it is not his fault and why doesn't she just. That's nice. May be super true. But it is not helpful.


----------



## BluesPower

personofinterest said:


> God, the arrogance of people who have never struggled with a sexless marriage honestly triggers me to the point that I get nauseous. You don't know what you would tolerate until you're actually in the situation. If you have never gone months without being touched, use never cried and begged the person who his supposed to love you to please pay attention to you, and you've never tried to make yourself perfect to be good enough for 6, then you don't know what the h*** you are talking about. When you have a partner who is willing, the reason it's works is because you have a partner who is willing. DE! When you are married to someone who does not care about sex and does not care enough about you to step up to the plate anyway, then what in the heck is the person who is starving supposed to do? And don't say divorce. I'm not talking about that period I got so sick of hearing that if I just did X long enough or did X well enough everything would magically be wonderful. Know… it wouldn't… and the people who kept telling me that either had partners who liked sex or they were so married to a cult like approach that they were blind. Or, up most commonly, there were people who also didn't care about sex. It seems to me women in particular who have a blah attitude about 6 are the ones always telling men to wash the dishes lol. At any rate, this idea that I have lots of 6 so I am the authority to tell you how to get 6 is ridiculous. Please just stop.


You know, I get your passion, I really do. I understand that these situation trigger a lot of people. 

However, you that have suffered this, and there others that are suffering this, had/and have the option to divorce and find someone that loves and desires you and likes to have sex. 

Just because we have never personally suffered this, does not mean that we do not understand. 

I your particular case I completely understand, I have made love to many married woman, and I know it is gross, that cried in my arms afterward. 

They said things like, "Why won't my husband touch me", "I feel so ugly, (and the were not)", "What is wrong with me?"., and on and on. 

The moral implications of what I did and their cheating aside, YEAH I could understand and FEEL their pain of rejection. 

I can only imagine that the male version is just as bad. But they all had the option to divorce, and many did. 

However, you and other seem to use some faulty logic that I cannot understand. 

Your argument is that you should get advice about business from a person that has failed a thousand times and never had a successful business. 

I am saying that is insane, would you rather not take advice from someone that has never had a business go bad or at least has had some successful businesses at least????


----------



## PigglyWiggly

I can understand the tough spot people are in during long term relationships. My wife has hit perimenopause and her sex drive has plummeted to zero at times. Fortunately for us, she is willing to try and be turned on when those times hit. It takes a lot of foreplay that mainly consists of kissing and touching non-sexual parts of her body but it eventually gets the motor running and off we go. The important consideration is that she is WILLING to try and be turned on. Also, she wants to be turned on as she enjoys our sex life so I do have an advantage that many don't in this situation. 

After stopping weed, after 5 years of use, my sex drive just died for 2 weeks. Touching my penis was like touching my forehead. Find the sexuality in that. Literally, touch your forehead now and see how turned on you are. It gave me a good understanding of what people with no sex drive experience. It was shocking and eye-opening as I had never experienced anything like that ever in my life. My brain was still sexual but it was like a disconnect with my body. It really freaked me out. Viagra got me through that but again, I was willing to try and get turned on.....that's the key. 

Another thing that I think was very key for our success is that our sex was great and frequent prior to these loss of desire episodes. It's easy to jump in the sack and give it a try when it's a habit you already do near daily. For others, I can see some distance and unfamiliarity making that not so easy. Neither of us had to wonder if the lack of drive was caused by anything other than perimenopause/weed withdrawal so that alleviated a lot of insecurities and worry. 

My point is that I think you can work through these things but both partners have to want to get turned and and be willing to try even when cleaning baseboards seems like a more enjoyable task. That takes a strong relationship with a lot of shared intimacy. Without these attributes, I don't see relationships surviving when one or both have lost desire.


----------



## In Absentia

PigglyWiggly said:


> My point is that I think you can work through these things but both partners have to want to get turned and and be willing to try


This is my whole point... all the criticism is coming from people who haven't been in the situation and who have responsive partners, prepared to go the extra mile. Unfortunately, some of us are not so lucky, and this is what I meant but being "lucky"... It takes years to explore all the avenues. It took me years. Now we don't have small kids, so I can explore other options. But saying it's all down to us or that we are doormat or that we need to give ultimatums or that we should leave after 1 year of little sex is not helpful. Every situation is different. I have a wife taking ADs and who is menopausal... she has decided not to have sex anymore, not just with me. She is adamant, to the point that she has told me to get sex somewhere else. Tell me how you turn that around... I don't want to have sex with other women I want to have sex with my wife...


----------



## john117

Personal said:


> It's never too late to end an ongoing crappy marriage. If you really wanted out earlier on, you would have done exactly that.
> 
> As to being with your kids, do you understand that divorce does not stop that?


When lots of money is involved, and I mean lots, things aren't quite this simple.


----------



## PigglyWiggly

In Absentia said:


> This is my whole point... all the criticism is coming from people who haven't been in the situation and who have responsive partners, prepared to go the extra mile. Unfortunately, some of us are not so lucky, and this is what I meant but being "lucky"... It takes years to explore all the avenues. It took me years. Now we don't have small kids, so I can explore other options. But saying it's all down to us or that we are doormat or that we need to give ultimatums or that we should leave after 1 year of little sex is not helpful. Every situation is different. I have a wife taking ADs and who is menopausal... she has decided not to have sex anymore, not just with me. She is adamant, to the point that she has told me to get sex somewhere else. Tell me how you turn that around... I don't want to have sex with other women I want to have sex with my wife...


Why does she not want to have sex with the man that she loves? I understand that maybe there are physical/health/mental limitations but why would she not wish she could?


----------



## In Absentia

john117 said:


> When lots of money is involved, and I mean lots, things aren't quite this simple.


There is that too... :grin2:


----------



## In Absentia

PigglyWiggly said:


> Why does she not want to have sex with the man that she loves? I understand that maybe there are physical/health/mental limitations but why would she not wish she could?


It's a long story... but when we hit a very difficult patch, I was rather stern, assertive and abrupt with her. I also got angry (I'm not proud of this). It took a long time to heal. But we were enjoying a very good period lately, but now she has decided she is done with sex. She knows that she has no libido and she doesn't want to have sex in case I have to wait too long and get angry again. Which is surprising to me since it's been 10 years since last time I got "angry"... but I must have scarred her... we are all different. To me, it was a normal reaction after being rejected several times for no reason. And I was fine after 10 minutes. Obviously, she wasn't...

This is all I know. She doesn't really want to talk about it.


----------



## john117

"I don't see anyone pontificating. I see men sharing that: they have left relationships that weren't highly sexual because it didn't work for them; men who have communicate in no uncertain terms in their relationships that they absolutely would take various actions in the event the relationship did become less sexual; and what they do on their end to ensure sex is always on the menu."

This is fine, however, taking various actions also has associated costs and risks. It's easy for me to call it a day when the kids are 20+, a legal agreement is in place to cover remaining tuition 50/50, and she makes what I make.

Things were drastically different when custody was involved, she made less than me, and tuition could be the hostage we didn't need.

The fact that the well meaning, but detail missing, fellow posters don't get is that the devil is in the details.


----------



## personofinterest

BluesPower said:


> You know, I get your passion, I really do. I understand that these situation trigger a lot of people.
> 
> However, you that have suffered this, and there others that are suffering this, had/and have the option to divorce and find someone that loves and desires you and likes to have sex.
> 
> Just because we have never personally suffered this, does not mean that we do not understand.
> 
> I your particular case I completely understand, I have made love to many married woman, and I know it is gross, that cried in my arms afterward.
> 
> They said things like, "Why won't my husband touch me", "I feel so ugly, (and the were not)", "What is wrong with me?"., and on and on.
> 
> The moral implications of what I did and their cheating aside, YEAH I could understand and FEEL their pain of rejection.
> 
> I can only imagine that the male version is just as bad. But they all had the option to divorce, and many did.
> 
> However, you and other seem to use some faulty logic that I cannot understand.
> 
> Your argument is that you should get advice about business from a person that has failed a thousand times and never had a successful business.
> 
> I am saying that is insane, would you rather not take advice from someone that has never had a business go bad or at least has had some successful businesses at least????


Yeah, I was so triggered I wasn't clear.

YOUR advice never bothers me. Because you understand the importance of sex AND you don't assume the starving person is doing something wrong. You also don't assume it's always on the starving person to fix it.

Some people sit from on high and declare that if people were doing it "their" way, we'd be having all the sex we wanted. They don't seem to grasp that THEIR way involves - wait for it - a willing partner. OR that "their" cookie cutter way is not infallible, and that even if I do it "right," if my partner isn't willing, it won't change.

I did end up divorcing over the sexlessness and quite a few other big issues. It was a hard decision because, again, people who have never experienced it think you are "shallow" for "divorcing over just sex," etc. Again, if you haven't been there.....slow your judgment roll.

A poster upthread implied that people in sexless marriage should listen to him because the fact that he has lots of sex obviously PROVES HE knows the right way and is therefore superior, you peons. lol

When you've heard that crap for a long time, it grates. Plus, even though, yes, I could have divorced sooner.....it really DOES take awhile to get through the process of decline, trying several ways to fix it, trying to be okay anyway, and so on. It's not like sex stops one day, goes away for two months, and you magically know that means forever, and then you file. I'd say from the start of the decline until you feel you've "tried all you can" usually takes several years when depth of commitment and kids are involved.

In short, YOU don't trigger me, but posts like "you should listen to me cause I got what you don't and that means I am better - learn from me" get on my last nerve.


----------



## john117

"I don't see anyone pontificating. I see men sharing that: they have left relationships that weren't highly sexual because it didn't work for them; men who have communicate in no uncertain terms in their relationships that they absolutely would take various actions in the event the relationship did become less sexual; and what they do on their end to ensure sex is always on the menu."

This is fine, however, taking various actions also has associated costs and risks. It's easy for me to call it a day when the kids are 20+, a legal agreement is in place to cover remaining tuition 50/50, and she makes what I make.

Things were drastically different when custody was involved, she made less than me, and tuition could be the hostage we didn't need.

The fact that the well meaning, but detail missing, fellow posters don't get is that the devil is in the details.


----------



## PigglyWiggly

personofinterest said:


> Yeah, I was so triggered I wasn't clear.
> 
> YOUR advice never bothers me. Because you understand the importance of sex AND you don't assume the starving person is doing something wrong. You also don't assume it's always on the starving person to fix it.
> 
> Some people sit from on high and declare that if people were doing it "their" way, we'd be having all the sex we wanted. They don't seem to grasp that THEIR way involves - wait for it - a willing partner. OR that "their" cookie cutter way is not infallible, and that even if I do it "right," if my partner isn't willing, it won't change.
> 
> I did end up divorcing over the sexlessness and quite a few other big issues. It was a hard decision because, again, people who have never experienced it think you are "shallow" for "divorcing over just sex," etc. Again, if you haven't been there.....slow your judgment roll.
> 
> A poster upthread implied that people in sexless marriage should listen to him because the fact that he has lots of sex obviously PROVES HE knows the right way and is therefore superior, you peons. lol
> 
> When you've heard that crap for a long time, it grates. Plus, even though, yes, I could have divorced sooner.....it really DOES take awhile to get through the process of decline, trying several ways to fix it, trying to be okay anyway, and so on. It's not like sex stops one day, goes away for two months, and you magically know that means forever, and then you file. I'd say from the start of the decline until you feel you've "tried all you can" usually takes several years when depth of commitment and kids are involved.
> 
> In short, YOU don't trigger me, but posts like "you should listen to me cause I got what you don't and that means I am better - learn from me" get on my last nerve.


You can always call me by name if I am someone you are referencing. I don't take offense to disagreement as I am wrong often. FYI


----------



## BluesPower

john117 said:


> "I don't see anyone pontificating. I see men sharing that: they have left relationships that weren't highly sexual because it didn't work for them; men who have communicate in no uncertain terms in their relationships that they absolutely would take various actions in the event the relationship did become less sexual; and what they do on their end to ensure sex is always on the menu."
> 
> This is fine, however, taking various actions also has associated costs and risks. It's easy for me to call it a day when the kids are 20+, a legal agreement is in place to cover remaining tuition 50/50, and she makes what I make.
> 
> Things were drastically different when custody was involved, she made less than me, and tuition could be the hostage we didn't need.
> 
> The fact that the well meaning, but detail missing, fellow posters don't get is that the devil is in the details.


So, as much as some seemed to bash me for valuing sex in a relationship too highly, it would seem that some value money or some other thing just as highly. 

I personally have no issue with that, to each his own. 

However, it seem incongruous to whine or be upset by the sexless status of a relationship when the reason that some people refuse to get out of the sexless relationship is money or some other issue.


----------



## personofinterest

> I can understand the tough spot people are in during long term relationships. My wife has hit perimenopause and her sex drive has plummeted to zero at times. *Fortunately for us, she is willing to try and be turned on when those times hit.* It takes a lot of foreplay that mainly consists of kissing and touching non-sexual parts of her body but it eventually gets the motor running and off we go. The important consideration is that she is WILLING to try and be turned on. Also, she wants to be turned on as she enjoys our sex life so I do have an advantage that many don't in this situation.


Okay, I am wading into territory that would be ewasy to purposely misinterpret here, so I am holding my breath....

The bolded part made me think. You know, our society is getting more and more, well, selfish. I hear so many people, and I will go ahead and say especially women, with the battle cry of <" I absolutely should never have to do anything I do not really want to do and I will not!" Apparently it's some sign of independence and autonomy? But when you marry, you promise to love and cherish, and the two become one flesh (even if you aren't religious, I think you get the symbolism." So yeah.....sometimes you need to try a little hard to want to want something because you love your spouse. I'm not talking pity sex or coersion or creating aversions here. I am talking about what people my age and older used to call, "You know, I wasn't really thinking about sex and wouldn't say it's on my priority list - I'm kinda tired, but I can tell the man I promised to love wants me, and once we get going I'll probably like it." People used to be willing to show love with a positive attitude even when they were a little tired or "not immediately in the mood." Now it's like being expected to do something that wasn't your idea is some sort of oppression or something.

You made a promise, you professed love. Keep your promises and make love a verb.

Hopefully no one will get a face like that short haired woman in the meme and accuse me of supporting marital rape lol


----------



## john117

A relationship is not defined by a single attribute, be it cooking, sex, or money. It's the sum of all parts, each part multiplied by the corresponding attribute weight. 

In addition, a long term relationship adds the element of change to the picture. Something that isn't quite as evident in new relationships.


----------



## personofinterest

john117 said:


> A relationship is not defined by a single attribute, be it cooking, sex, or money. It's the sum of all parts, each part multiplied by the corresponding attribute weight.
> 
> In addition, a long term relationship adds the element of change to the picture. Something that isn't quite as evident in new relationships.



This is very true. I am working right now with a satellite based composite that is a weighted sum of 3 types of observation. Not only are the observations weighted, the weighting changes depending on which data is available along with which data is most recent. Relationships are a lot like that.

I once heard someone say sex is 5% of a marriage when it's great and 95% of a marriage when it's absent. I think that can apply to a lot of things. In my first marriage, money was a tough issue as well as sex, because my ex lost jobs a lot, stayed unemployed till severance ran out, and didn't understand long range planning. We lived in a couple of houses that were bigger and "nicer" than the one I live in now, but of course we had to move when he'd lose a job. I worried about money all the time.

I never worry now. Not because we have a lot. I make about what a teacher makes, and my hubby makes less than my ex. But he knows how to plan, he's been at the same job 20 years, his work ethic is excellent, and the electricity has never been cut off without warning. The house is 60 years old and 1300 sq feet, and we don't live extravagantly AT ALL. But I am so happy and content because I do not have to WORRY. I don;t even really think about it because I know we'll have power, groceries, and he won;t come home saying he was fired.


----------



## BluesPower

personofinterest said:


> Yeah, I was so triggered I wasn't clear.
> 
> YOUR advice never bothers me. Because you understand the importance of sex AND you don't assume the starving person is doing something wrong. You also don't assume it's always on the starving person to fix it.
> 
> Some people sit from on high and declare that if people were doing it "their" way, we'd be having all the sex we wanted. They don't seem to grasp that THEIR way involves - wait for it - a willing partner. OR that "their" cookie cutter way is not infallible, and that even if I do it "right," if my partner isn't willing, it won't change.
> 
> I did end up divorcing over the sexlessness and quite a few other big issues. It was a hard decision because, again, people who have never experienced it think you are "shallow" for "divorcing over just sex," etc. Again, if you haven't been there.....slow your judgment roll.
> 
> A poster upthread implied that people in sexless marriage should listen to him because the fact that he has lots of sex obviously PROVES HE knows the right way and is therefore superior, you peons. lol
> 
> *When you've heard that crap for a long time, it grates. Plus, even though, yes, I could have divorced sooner.....it really DOES take awhile to get through the process of decline, trying several ways to fix it, trying to be okay anyway, and so on. It's not like sex stops one day, goes away for two months, and you magically know that means forever, and then you file. I'd say from the start of the decline until you feel you've "tried all you can" usually takes several years when depth of commitment and kids are involved.
> *
> In short, YOU don't trigger me, but posts like "you should listen to me cause I got what you don't and that means I am better - learn from me" get on my last nerve.


I think this post is reasonable. And I understand that it does take a while to figure this stuff out. 

Now, I am guilty of staying in a bad marriage, maybe because we did have sex, but there were other reasons. But I def say that I was stupid for saying, but that is easy to say after the fact, like most, I did not know all the facts and it was not infidelity, but other worse stuff.

I am not telling anyone to "do it my way", but I am aware that some had said that to an extent. 

However, I do say this... If you are in a sexless marriage, and if you value sex in your life, then get out. 

But, All of these guys/and girls that have been sexless for a while, and those that have tried, yes I advise them to divorce and start over. You only get one life and if you value a healthy sex life, why waste time, unless you value something more, in which case I am thinking people should not ***** about it...


----------



## PigglyWiggly

personofinterest said:


> Okay, I am wading into territory that would be ewasy to purposely misinterpret here, so I am holding my breath....
> 
> The bolded part made me think. You know, our society is getting more and more, well, selfish. I hear so many people, and I will go ahead and say especially women, with the battle cry of <" I absolutely should never have to do anything I do not really want to do and I will not!" Apparently it's some sign of independence and autonomy? But when you marry, you promise to love and cherish, and the two become one flesh (even if you aren't religious, I think you get the symbolism." So yeah.....sometimes you need to try a little hard to want to want something because you love your spouse. I'm not talking pity sex or coersion or creating aversions here. I am talking about what people my age and older used to call, *"You know, I wasn't really thinking about sex and wouldn't say it's on my priority list - I'm kinda tired, but I can tell the man I promised to love wants me, and once we get going I'll probably like it."* People used to be willing to show love with a positive attitude even when they were a little tired or "not immediately in the mood." Now it's like being expected to do something that wasn't your idea is some sort of oppression or something.
> 
> You made a promise, you professed love. Keep your promises and make love a verb.
> 
> Hopefully no one will get a face like that short haired woman in the meme and accuse me of supporting marital rape lol


Very true in my experience. For the 2 weeks that I had zero physical desire, we had sex like normal because I figured that the worst case scenario was we had some intimacy during foreplay and if I became floppy Fred, I'd concentrate on giving her a good time where everything was about her. WIn/Win. Sex is fun and beats the hell out of skipping the opportunity to watch tv instead. :grin2:


----------



## personofinterest

> However, I do say this... If you are in a sexless marriage, and if you value sex in your life, then get out.
> 
> But, All of these guys/and girls that have been sexless for a while, and those that have tried, yes I advise them to divorce and start over. You only get one life and if you value a healthy sex life, why waste time, unless you value something more, in which case I am thinking people should not ***** about it...


Yep.

I need to lose around 20 pounds or so. I have needed to for a few years. There are strategies and solutions that would make this happen. They are hard and I haven't gotten in that "I WILL do this" mindset yet. I know there are things, however unpleasant (like no more chips or diet soda), that would help to change things. I'm not doing them or at least not consistently.

BUT I also don't whine about the 20 pounds. Because my conscious inaction pretty much negates my right to whine.


----------



## PigglyWiggly

john117 said:


> A relationship is not defined by a single attribute, be it cooking, sex, or money. It's the sum of all parts, each part multiplied by the corresponding attribute weight.
> 
> In addition, a long term relationship adds the element of change to the picture. Something that isn't quite as evident in new relationships.


John117, this is very true. I think it's MUCH easier to get through any rough patches concerning sex when all those other parts are clicking along. Take 2 of those parts off the table and I believe things become a lot more difficult to manage. 

I think it's time to walk when one partner no longer has the WISH to desire and be with their partner sexually. There may be libido problems, health, and/or mental issues but if you have the wish to have a great sex life with me, I can work with your issues.


----------



## john117

PigglyWiggly said:


> John117, this is very true. I think it's MUCH easier to get through any rough patches concerning sex when all those other parts are clicking along. Take 2 of those parts off the table and I believe things become a lot more difficult to manage.
> 
> I think it's time to walk when one partner no longer has the WISH to desire and be with their partner sexually. There may be libido problems, health, and/or mental issues but if you have the wish to have a great sex life with me, I can work with your issues.


Except when you both realize that things can't be fixed. That was us, December 2017 edition. 6 months of serious therapy and the realization came that we're simply too apart and can't find a way back. 

Sex was hardly the issue. With her indifference and lack of practical counterespionage knowledge  I could be doing the entire PTO mom coffee club and she wouldn't know. 

The future was the issue.


----------



## 269370

personofinterest said:


> But when you marry, you promise to love and cherish, and the two become one flesh



I would convert to Christianity just for that part  (and the part about being grateful for stuff; those parts are awesome).

But then some Uber feminist might misinterpret: Which part of the flesh do you become? The one that wants to have sex or the one that doesn’t so much? Is it the part that loves anal and being peed on or the one that cherishes partner’s headaches / bad moods? 
Unfortunately as always, these things are open to (mis)interpretation. "Cherish and respect each other" may possibly contradict the flesh part.



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## PigglyWiggly

john117 said:


> Except when you both realize that things can't be fixed. That was us, December 2017 edition. 6 months of serious therapy and the realization came that we're simply too apart and can't find a way back.
> 
> Sex was hardly the issue. With her indifference and lack of practical counterespionage knowledge  I could be doing the entire PTO mom coffee club and she wouldn't know.
> 
> The future was the issue.


That must be devastating to face. I am sure you wondered, "how did we get here?" At that point, sex would be the least of your issues. It sounds like you have been very successful with your career and could offer a vacation environment that I could only dream of. If you don't dig each other with all of that atmosphere going for you, it's time to face facts. I am sorry you had to go through that. With your success, it must be hard to experience a failure of that magnitude.


----------



## Buddy400

personofinterest said:


> Yep.
> 
> I need to lose around 20 pounds or so. I have needed to for a few years. There are strategies and solutions that would make this happen. They are hard and I haven't gotten in that "I WILL do this" mindset yet. I know there are things, however unpleasant (like no more chips or diet soda), that would help to change things. I'm not doing them or at least not consistently.
> 
> BUT I also don't whine about the 20 pounds. Because my conscious inaction pretty much negates my right to whine.


Do too many "likes" on multiple threads in a short period of time constitute stalking?

If so, I apologize.


----------



## personofinterest

Buddy400 said:


> Do too many "likes" on multiple threads in a short period of time constitute stalking?
> 
> If so, I apologize.


I don't really pay attention to lies, so you can fly under the radar lol


----------



## PigglyWiggly

personofinterest said:


> I don't really pay attention to lies, so you can fly under the radar lol


We LIKE your posts...not LIE to you. Why do women do that. :grin2: I keed I keed


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## john117

PigglyWiggly said:


> That must be devastating to face. I am sure you wondered, "how did we get here?" At that point, sex would be the least of your issues. It sounds like you have been very successful with your career and could offer a vacation environment that I could only dream of. If you don't dig each other with all of that atmosphere going for you, it's time to face facts. I am sorry you had to go through that. With your success, it must be hard to experience a failure of that magnitude.


Well, the hardest thing to swallow was how I, knowing what I know about how the mind works, and her mind in particular, wasn't able to change it or help her see that changes are required. By far. 

But then, I knew what I was dealing with. Family, culture, and mental health issues. TAM was instrumental in providing a huge number of similar cases. Up to 2012 or 2013 I thought a fix was just around the corner from when we started the issues in the marriage. After reading the entire TAM and taking note of certain patterns, reading about the many "failures" was far more useful than reading about the far and few "successes". 

Fate and Donald Trump intervened and as planned, early next year I'll be single and amicable. But, as mentioned, sex wasn't the issue. The future was. 

People succeed because they play for the long run.


----------



## 269370

personofinterest said:


> Yep.
> 
> 
> 
> I need to lose around 20 pounds or so. I have needed to for a few years. There are strategies and solutions that would make this happen. They are hard and I haven't gotten in that "I WILL do this" mindset yet. I know there are things, however unpleasant (like no more chips or diet soda), that would help to change things. I'm not doing them or at least not consistently.
> 
> 
> 
> BUT I also don't whine about the 20 pounds. Because my conscious inaction pretty much negates my right to whine.




I don’t mind people ‘whining’ (I prefer to call it venting). I think it helps if you can do it here while you have to appear ‘stoic’ in the relationship all the time (as wives typically expect you to and it’s a bit tiring sometimes to be ‘that strong guy’ all the time...{end of whining}

But this thread encompasses a very wide range of ‘sexless’ marriages:

Some are sexless because the partner keeps rejecting, some are sexless because the husband just stopped asking or is unable to ask or address the issue verbally, some are not even sexless but the partner is unsatisfied with wife’s ‘performance’/enthusiasm levels...There are just way way too many different situations here.

I tend to have a little less sympathy towards the latter cases (and that’s possibly my error) because I find that wife’s enthusiasm levels is really a very different problem than constant rejection. 

I do often notice that my wife’s enthusiasm levels are often correlated with my own enthusiasm levels (hers rise, when mine rise or are strong: and I don’t know if it’s real or imaginary) plus when I’m really really horny (which is most of the time, ‘cos she’s really really hot), she could pretend to be unconscious and not even move or make a sound, I would still find a way to have a good time....(she’s a bit like a work of art, that i really admire). I realise that doesn’t work for many people though.

I do worry that when we are both older, then this may not be the case anymore and additional stimuli might be needed. I have no idea when this will happen. She’s 36 so I guess we have another 10-15 years left when the decline in her ‘hotness’ could potentially occur. I do hope that as we both age, this will not matter so much. No idea. Do men find their older wives less hot than before? Since attraction works on different levels, I hope it will morph into something more...’sophisticated’.


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## personofinterest

I definitely understand the distinctions, Prime. I have to say that when I say sexless, I mean the 10 or less time a year standard. Though I do feel for people who have nothing but starfish sex every couple of weeks.

If someone is having sex once or twice a week, I pretty much ignore their complaints because give me a break. That is just MY view. If you are having sex between 50-100 times a year, you are so far ahead of those of us who starved for months and years at a stretch, i just don't have sympathy. Kind of like comparing a paper cut to having your hand amputated.


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## 269370

personofinterest said:


> Though I do feel for people who have nothing but starfish sex every couple of weeks.



I would move / bend the hands and legs a bit so it looks more like a crab 
See? Now you have variety: starfish AND crab sex. And if you manage to somehow turn her around, you get into the whole urchin sex territory: that’s a whole different kettle of fish! 



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## minimalME

personofinterest said:


> I definitely understand the distinctions, Prime. *I have to say that when I say sexless, I mean the 10 or less time a year standard.* Though I do feel for people who have nothing but starfish sex every couple of weeks.


And then there are those of us who went years inbetween. That's what sexless was for me. When I finally asked for a divorce, I hadn't had sex in 2+ years.



> If someone is having sex once or twice a week, I pretty much ignore their complaints because give me a break. That is just MY view. If you are *having sex between 50-100 times a year,* you are so far ahead of those of us who starved for months and years at a stretch, i just don't have sympathy. Kind of like comparing a paper cut to having your hand amputated.


I can't honestly say I reached 50 in 20 years of marriage.


----------



## Cletus

BluesPower said:


> I your particular case I completely understand, I have made love to many married woman, and I know it is gross, that cried in my arms afterward.
> 
> They said things like, "Why won't my husband touch me", "I feel so ugly, (and the were not)", "What is wrong with me?"., and on and on.


Is this a necessary part of the zeitgeist that gets one a thriving sex life or just a side effect?


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## personofinterest

minimalME said:


> And then there are those of us who went years inbetween. That's what sexless was for me. When I finally asked for a divorce, I hadn't had sex in 2+ years.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't honestly say I reached 50 in 20 years of marriage.


Yep. I think the longest we went was almost 3 years. Then, about a year before I filed, he made a half-hearted attempt that was almost like an insult or something. By then the thought of him touching me was physically repulsive.


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## minimalME

personofinterest said:


> By then the thought of him touching me was physically repulsive.


Exactly!


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## PigglyWiggly

inmyprime said:


> I do worry that when we are both older, then this may not be the case anymore and additional stimuli might be needed. I have no idea when this will happen. She’s 36 so I guess we have another 10-15 years left when the decline in her ‘hotness’ could potentially occur. I do hope that as we both age, this will not matter so much. No idea. *Do men find their older wives less hot than before? *Since attraction works on different levels, I hope it will morph into something more...’sophisticated’.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Objectively, absolutely less hot at 48 vs 38. Subjectively, she's hotter than ever. Love goggles are real! I have only "seen" my wife objectively twice in the last 5 years and it was after a major argument. I could see her aging, more wrinkles, skin not as flawless and body not as tight as before. As soon as the love potion kicks in, it somehow disappears. Your mind sees the experience, the desire she looks at you with and the woman she has become. Your attraction does morph into something more sophisticated as you experience even deeper levels of intimacy. It still feels like that lustful desire you had when she was 10 years younger. I do not know how that works but I experience it. When you hear really old guys tell their wives, "you are as beautiful as ever." They are being sincere and not just fluffing her ego. 

I've read that often, men will cheat on their wife with a woman who is less attractive than her because what really attracted them was the OW's desire for him. Desire is my favorite "chemical experience" .

The 2019 vette (25 year old) is nice to look at and is fun to drive. The 67 vette with a 427 (your older wife) is not as fast or comfortable but something about that car makes your D hard when you hit the key and puts a smile on your face every time you look at it. Best analogy I could come up with at the moment. :smile2:


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## oldshirt

personofinterest said:


> God, the arrogance of people who have never struggled with a sexless marriage honestly triggers me to the point that I get nauseous. You don't know what you would tolerate until you're actually in the situation. If you have never gone months without being touched, use never cried and begged the person who his supposed to love you to please pay attention to you, and you've never tried to make yourself perfect to be good enough for 6, then you don't know what the h*** you are talking about. When you have a partner who is willing, the reason it's works is because you have a partner who is willing. DE! When you are married to someone who does not care about sex and does not care enough about you to step up to the plate anyway, then what in the heck is the person who is starving supposed to do? And don't say divorce. I'm not talking about that period I got so sick of hearing that if I just did X long enough or did X well enough everything would magically be wonderful. Know… it wouldn't… and the people who kept telling me that either had partners who liked sex or they were so married to a cult like approach that they were blind. Or, up most commonly, there were people who also didn't care about sex. It seems to me women in particular who have a blah attitude about 6 are the ones always telling men to wash the dishes lol. At any rate, this idea that I have lots of 6 so I am the authority to tell you how to get 6 is ridiculous. Please just stop.




I understand where you are coming from and you do have some valid points.

I can't speak for some of the other posters that are sexually active, but as for me, if you think my life has always been a real life porn flick, you would be dead wrong.

I HAVE experienced dry spells and hormonal imbalances and childbirth and rearing young children and have experienced libido going from super-sonic to dead-stop. 

I'll be married 23 years in a month and there HAVE been ups and downs and there has been periods of turmoil and conflict and there have been trips to MC and the subject of divorce has been broached.

My wife is probably no more and no less horny or sexually oriented than any other woman.

I am no more and no less handsome, sexy or studly than any other man. 

We have had periods where her libido dropped to zero. I am sure there have been periods where she probably felt like she'd be fine never having sex ever again. 

There were periods after childbirth and with babies and toddlers where it was simply off the table and not on the radar.

Then there was a time when the kids were grade-school age she had uterine issues and came down with a condition called Premenstrual Dysmorphic Disorder where I was glad that she hadnt murdered me or the kids in our sleep the night before. That ultimately required surgery and hormonal therapy to address.

So don't think that I have lived a 24/7 life of nonstop sex with a woman that is some kind of freak sexual dynamo.

My experience and things that I have learned from doctors and books and my own research journey have come from the trenches. My scars were earned. 

Now that being said, it is true that while I may have had periods of months with zero sexuality and have had periods of many months and arguably years of lackluster sex - I have in fact never been in a relationship with zero sex for ongoing months or years and have never been with a woman that has flat-out told me she longer wishes a sex life with me.

I have not experienced that. I will concede that point.

However one of the reasons I have not experienced those things is because I will not accept that and will not live under those conditions.

And even though I have never actually threatened that, my wife knows that I am not the kind of guy that will just accept a sexless life.

In those dark days of hormonal issues and babies etc, she may have been exhausted and may have had a loss of libido, but she still wanted an intimate life and knew there was something wrong. 

Together we sought answers, sought treatment and worked together to meet both of our needs. 

So yeah, I get your point that if some guy is some kind of rich, handsome, jet-setting playboy with a harem of young, healthy, sexually charged women having sex on his yacht and private jet and in the playboy ******* every day, his advice to a middle aged man who's wife of 30 years has lost her sex drive is probably not all that applicable.

But I am not that guy. 

I am a bald, bespeckled, 54 year old Average Joe that not only has been in the trenches in the past, but now 
that menopause has arrived am finding myself back in that landscape again. 

I do not have a dead bedroom or a sexless marriage now. The bedroom may not be dead, but it is sick in bed needing daily care. 

My Sexlife is not dead not only because I won't accept a sexless life, but also because I work at it, communicate effectively and I am married to a woman that knows if she wants to remain married she will also need to put forth the effort to address those issues.

And If she did not want to remain married to me and did not want to deal with the sexual issues, she knows all she has to do is request a fair and amicable and cooperative divorce and I will give her one without any fuss or game playing.


----------



## needhelp!

Hey I am in a sexless marriage. Tried many times now since the birth of our kid to have some intimacy and keep getting rejected. Tried doing the romantic stuff and things she likes doing. Dates out- doing some fancy things. Nothing. I am considering separating but staying because of my kid. Tried MC but still it feels she is not being honest. Trying to keep the peace but it seems everyday to get worse. Not sure what to do at this point. Pulling my hair out in trying to understand, but thinking divorce and meeting someone new would be better. Not sure what to do- any advice on here would help.


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## oldshirt

john117 said:


> When lots of money is involved, and I mean lots, things aren't quite this simple.


Having lots of money does not mean you can't continue your relationship with your children following a divorce.

I dunno if lots of money actually makes anything more complex or just more expensive.

Does the actual content truly change or just the dollar amount?


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## oldshirt

needhelp! said:


> Hey I am in a sexless marriage. Tried many times now since the birth of our kid to have some intimacy and keep getting rejected. Tried doing the romantic stuff and things she likes doing. Dates out- doing some fancy things. Nothing. I am considering separating but staying because of my kid. Tried MC but still it feels she is not being honest. Trying to keep the peace but it seems everyday to get worse. Not sure what to do at this point. Pulling my hair out in trying to understand, but thinking divorce and meeting someone new would be better. Not sure what to do- any advice on here would help.


My advice is start your own thread so people can address your specific situation.


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## oldshirt

PigglyWiggly said:


> John117, this is very true. I think it's MUCH easier to get through any rough patches concerning sex when all those other parts are clicking along. Take 2 of those parts off the table and I believe things become a lot more difficult to manage.
> 
> I think it's time to walk when one partner no longer has the WISH to desire and be with their partner sexually. There may be libido problems, health, and/or mental issues but if you have the wish to have a great sex life with me, I can work with your issues.


Very true.

This is one of the primary factors that got us through my wife's hormonal and libido issues. 

She *wanted* to be sexual and passionate and have intimacy, she just didn't _feel_ it.

She herself would say something was wrong with her and that something was out of whack with her. 

She did go to a variety of doctors, did try a variety of treatments, she did agree to to to MC and did come to the negotiating table to discuss it. 

That is why I continued to do my part and do what I could vs packing up and calling it a day.

But I do think it is fundamentally different when someone outright says they no longer want a Sexlife and they don't lift a finger to do anything about it. 

If someone does not want a marital Sexlife and they are good with that and do not want to do anything about it, I don't see how it can really be anything other than a game-over moment.


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## 269370

PigglyWiggly said:


> Objectively, absolutely less hot at 48 vs 38. Subjectively, she's hotter than ever. Love goggles are real! I have only "seen" my wife objectively twice in the last 5 years and it was after a major argument. I could see her aging, more wrinkles, skin not as flawless and body not as tight as before. As soon as the love potion kicks in, it somehow disappears. Your mind sees the experience, the desire she looks at you with and the woman she has become. Your attraction does morph into something more sophisticated as you experience even deeper levels of intimacy. It still feels like that lustful desire you had when she was 10 years younger. I do not know how that works but I experience it. When you hear really old guys tell their wives, "you are as beautiful as ever." They are being sincere and not just fluffing her ego.
> 
> 
> 
> I've read that often, men will cheat on their wife with a woman who is less attractive than her because what really attracted them was the OW's desire for him. Desire is my favorite "chemical experience" .
> 
> 
> 
> The 2019 vette (25 year old) is nice to look at and is fun to drive. The 67 vette with a 427 (your older wife) is not as fast or comfortable but something about that car makes your D hard when you hit the key and puts a smile on your face every time you look at it. Best analogy I could come up with at the moment. :smile2:



It made me very happy to read this 
Have to keep working on strategies how to make myself more attractable to her then, if that’s the key  

I do love driving my 6 month old Tesla though... 


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## BluesPower

Cletus said:


> Is this a necessary part of the zeitgeist that gets one a thriving sex life or just a side effect?


Cletus, your sarcasm aside, come on man. While the morality of that type of situation is not good, what do you want me to say? 

Yes, I have been successful with women, I like women and I like sex. I have had a lot of both. Am I a bad person because of that?

That line by the way was use in describing the pain that I KNOW women feel in sexless marriages. 

Am I supposed to not like women and just have a little sex? I mean help me understand what your point is?


----------



## 269370

BluesPower said:


> Cletus, your sarcasm aside, come on man. While the morality of that type of situation is not good, what do you want me to say?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I have been successful with women, I like women and I like sex. I have had a lot of both. Am I a bad person because of that?
> 
> 
> 
> That like by the way was use in describing the pain that I KNOW women feel in sexless marriages.
> 
> 
> 
> Am I supposed to not like women and just have a little sex? I mean help me understand what your point is?




There seems to be a misconception what ‘successful with women’ actually means (and if it means anything, if one doesn’t manage to stay with them). You really only need ONE woman to have sex and share a life with.

Having sex with many women who you don’t stay with (or are miserable with them in some other ways); this doesn’t seem like something I personally would be that proud of. But different strokes etc.

Having said that, I do wish your newest relationship works out! She sounds like a keeper.


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## john117

oldshirt said:


> Having lots of money does not mean you can't continue your relationship with your children following a divorce.
> 
> I dunno if lots of money actually makes anything more complex or just more expensive.
> 
> Does the actual content truly change or just the dollar amount?


Delaying the inevitable by a few years vs several hundred thousand dollars? 

Not a bad compromise.


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## PigglyWiggly

john117 said:


> Delaying the inevitable by a few years vs several hundred thousand dollars?
> 
> Not a bad compromise.


Ok, this I disagree with. To me, the most valuable resource we have is time. As i get older, time becomes more valuable and money less. That's me. You define what's more valuable for you. :smile2:


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## john117

PigglyWiggly said:


> Ok, this I disagree with. To me, the most valuable resource we have is time. As i get older, time becomes more valuable and money less. That's me. You define what's more valuable for you. :smile2:


Allow the Yoda of decision analysis to offer his wisdom.

Time, indeed, is of the essence. But so is earning potential. It would have taken a lot of legal harrangling to get her to pay half of two staggering tuition bills. Now we're at the tail end of it. I could not have earned enough on my own to cover it all, and a legal battle would have been a distraction for my girls. I also had time to focus on my own career, as I just made team leader then. She also did that and it helped her in this regard.

So... It's all a trade-off. But not to the point where one leg of the stool is much more important than the others.


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## PigglyWiggly

john117 said:


> Allow the Yoda of decision analysis to offer his wisdom.
> 
> Time, indeed, is of the essence. But so is earning potential. It would have taken a lot of legal harrangling to get her to pay half of two staggering tuition bills. Now we're at the tail end of it. *I could not have earned enough on my own to cover it all*, and a legal battle would have been a distraction for my girls. I also had time to focus on my own career, as I just made team leader then. She also did that and it helped her in this regard.
> 
> So... It's all a trade-off. But not to the point where one leg of the stool is much more important than the others.


I understand now. As my dad would say, "It's the F'ing you get for the F'ing you got"


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## john117

PigglyWiggly said:


> I understand now. As my dad would say, "It's the F'ing you get for the F'ing you got"


We Yoda's call it risk analysis


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## uhtred

Might be best to have your own thread. 

Briefly though, from >30 years in this situation, some comments:

Go to asexuality.org and see if it sounds familiar. If so, then there is essentially no chance things will improve. 

Try to determine if she doesn't want sex at all, or doesn't want sex with you, and if so, why. 

Don't expect it to just improve. 

Leave, cheat, live like a monk.




needhelp! said:


> Hey I am in a sexless marriage. Tried many times now since the birth of our kid to have some intimacy and keep getting rejected. Tried doing the romantic stuff and things she likes doing. Dates out- doing some fancy things. Nothing. I am considering separating but staying because of my kid. Tried MC but still it feels she is not being honest. Trying to keep the peace but it seems everyday to get worse. Not sure what to do at this point. Pulling my hair out in trying to understand, but thinking divorce and meeting someone new would be better. Not sure what to do- any advice on here would help.


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## In Absentia

Marriages are a flowing/fluid/ever evolving thing. We stay for several reasons. I wasn't incredibly unhappy, otherwise I wouldn't have stayed this long. We were ok on the surface. I stayed for the kids, not to disrupt them. I know my wife has huge mental and upbringing issues, but she seems ok from the outside. I felt it wasn't right to leave her. There is also the financial consequences of a divorce. Yes, I didn't want to trouble my wife even more. I know, I'm a fool. But the time is right now. And it's been 8 months of no sex... :laugh:


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## happiness27

In Absentia said:


> Marriages are a flowing/fluid/ever evolving thing. We stay for several reasons. I wasn't incredibly unhappy, otherwise I wouldn't have stayed this long. We were ok on the surface. I stayed for the kids, not to disrupt them. I know my wife has huge mental and upbringing issues, but she seems ok from the outside. I felt it wasn't right to leave her. There is also the financial consequences of a divorce. Yes, I didn't want to trouble my wife even more. I know, I'm a fool. But the time is right now. And it's been 8 months of no sex... :laugh:


It just breaks my heart to read "8 months of no sex" - OMIGOD!

Really shakes me to my core.

I just had a yearly with my gyno yesterday where we discussed the cocktail of hormones I keep tweaked twice a year. As a post-menopausal woman, I know there are solutions out there and there are female gynos (and male, as well, who *get* it) who offer solutions.

There are reasons why a woman's ever-changing body runs into roadblocks (dry vagina, out of kilter hormones driving libido down) but there are also solutions. 

So many times throughout the history of medicine for women, women with issues have been notoriously written off as "hysterical" or "depressed" instead of taken seriously with solutions. 

TODAY there is a growing number of gynos who are seeing women's issues from solutions standpoints. Women are flocking to these doctors - but there are still a large number of women who are under the care of doctors who are pushing anti-depressants instead.

I just had my T upped by a milligram because it was too low. Women really, really can't help it when their T is too low - it's their body that is controlling what is happening. They need to become aware, number one, that having a low libido is effecting their relationship and number two, that they can be helped. 

Strangely, when your libido is low, you don't realize it or care. It doesn't seem like a big deal, which is part of the illusion that everything is okay. 

I wish there was something helpful I could say but I'm far from a marriage or sex counselor. I think it ends up falling on the men to assertively approach their wives with: "I'd like to explore a solution just to see if there is something we can do. I'm unhappy - not with YOU - but with the lack of sex, which is important to me as a part of expressing my love with you." 

And women need to try and respond to this...to be willing to have a discussion with a gyno who is sympathetically offering real solutions. 

I can tell you from my viewpoint that I have experienced low libido due to diminishing T and it's no joke. I end up beating myself up over something I really can't help feeling and can't do anything about without the help of my doctors. I'm motivated by my sympathy for my spouse and the knowledge that something isn't right with my sex drive and my desire. 

It's not my spouse that I don't desire. It's my desire that would be lacking - literally my body shutting down and it not being something I can just will it to do. I need medical help - not just to desire sex but to increase my feelings of well-being and balance. One of the side-effects of T is a greater sense of happiness and well-being...it boosts one's attitude. 

Men seem to be inherently in possession of that upbeat that comes from possessing strong levels of T. It may be hard for men to understand why women don't have that same ability - but, if you could stop and think about it for a minute, men with persistently low T levels experience depression and low drive also. 

I encourage women who are struggling with low drive to at least have a conversation with a cutting edge board-certified gyno who can lay out the options so she can see if she would be willing to try something new.


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## SadSamIAm

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> @SadSamIAm
> 
> Why do you think you mast openly would make you less attractive to her?


Because it would make her feel even more like all I care about is getting my rocks off.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

inmyprime said:


> I would move / bend the hands and legs a bit so it looks more like a crab
> See? Now you have variety: starfish AND crab sex. And if you manage to somehow turn her around, you get into the whole urchin sex territory: that’s a whole different kettle of fish!
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

That you would even believe that she believes that is...troubling.

The statement "all you care about is sex" is gaslighting, pure and simple.


SadSamIAm said:


> Because it would make her feel even more like all I care about is getting my rocks off.


Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Handy

* Randy Lafever
...if she told me today we would never have sex again I wouldn't be the least bit disappointed or miss it. If she tried to increase our current sex-load, to, say, monthly, I would push back on that, ....*


I am interested in the reasons you are happy with sex every 3 months and more often is unreasonable. I am asking as a older male that would like to have sex and all that goes along with it 2 or 3 times a week. I like sex to last about 20 to 30 minuets and do somethings together before sex happens. Maybe you could start a separate thread so some of us people that are in low sex marriages hear what is like to not want sex as much as most of us do.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

SadSamIAm said:


> Because it would make her feel even more like all I care about is getting my rocks off.


Are you sure, or poss projecting?


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## john117

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Are you sure, or poss projecting?


If one doesn't have the answer to the above, the likelihood they can understand such troubled relationships is fairly small...


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## SadSamIAm

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Are you sure, or poss projecting?


Sure


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