# How to tell the spouse “I am doing it for the kids, not you.”



## DLC (Sep 19, 2021)

Ok, so here’s my question, looking for suggestions. 

How to tell the spouse, as nicely as possible without sounding like an huge a-hole, that “I am bending over backwards and do all those extra work for the family is that, I am doing them for kids, not you. So don’t get any wrong idea.” 😅

there is a difference between “I am sacrificing my time for the kids” vs “you can just push me around and walk over me like a doormatt”

I want to state that I am the first case, not the second case.


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## theloveofmylife (Jan 5, 2021)

So, you're looking for a fight?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Why the need to say it?


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Backstory?


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## DLC (Sep 19, 2021)

I am not looking for a fight. I want to discourage the spouse from dumping more and more family and household responsibility on me. The other party is already doing nothing for the family but work (WFH) during weekdays. I got my full time job as well of course. 

I am wondering if there is a way to bring across a point which means “I am losing my time from my work day and losing my time for sleep to do everything for kids, but please don’t consider them as sign that you can just push me over to do everything for you.”

a little background. I am done with the marriage, but not looking for fight, not looking to “get back at the spouse”. I just want what’s best the kids, and I want out once the youngest one graduate from college. That’s why I am trying to keep the “family” intact and peaceful for the time being.


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## Bluesclues (Mar 30, 2016)

DLC said:


> I am not looking for a fight. I want to discourage the spouse from dumping more and more family and household responsibility on me. The other party is already doing nothing for the family but work (WFH) during weekdays. I got my full time job as well of course.
> 
> I am wondering if there is a way to bring across a point which means “I am losing my time from my work day and losing my time for sleep to do everything for kids, but please don’t consider them as sign that you can just push me over to do everything for you.”
> 
> a little background. I am done with the marriage, but not looking for fight, not looking to “get back at the spouse”. I just want what’s best the kids, and I want out once the youngest one graduate from college. That’s why I am trying to keep the “family” intact and peaceful for the time being.


Have you had actual conversations with her about how miserable you are?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

How many years left until you get out?


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

DLC said:


> I am doing them for kids, not you. So don’t get any wrong idea.” 😅


Just say what you said above. simple, no need for any melodramatics. Why? Do you need a dose of courage to say it?


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

DLC said:


> I am not looking for a fight. I want to discourage the spouse from dumping more and more family and household responsibility on me. The other party is already doing nothing for the family but work (WFH) during weekdays. I got my full time job as well of course.
> 
> I am wondering if there is a way to bring across a point which means “I am losing my time from my work day and losing my time for sleep to do everything for kids, but please don’t consider them as sign that you can just push me over to do everything for you.”
> 
> a little background. I am done with the marriage, but not looking for fight, not looking to “get back at the spouse”. I just want what’s best the kids, and I want out once the youngest one graduate from college. That’s why I am trying to keep the “family” intact and peaceful for the time being.


If the marriage is that bad I would think they know this. Why not just say this marriage is dead, I think it's best to stay together until the kids are all adults, so lets try to put on an act the kids will eventually see right through until they are out of college before we tell them what they already know. 

I'm saying this to also say why waste years of your life, your kids probably already know things are bad, kids are very perceptive.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

If it’s all about the kids, what can you do for the kids in this terrible marriage that you couldn’t do for them on your own?

What are you actually accomplishing by staying that you couldn’t on your own?


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## DLC (Sep 19, 2021)

Openminded said:


> How many years left until you get out?


17 yrs. 😅

Trust me, I am counting. Haha


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## DLC (Sep 19, 2021)

Bluesclues said:


> Have you had actual conversations with her about how miserable you are?


conversation doesn’t work.She will go on the offensive every time i mention something minor even and the conversation usually ends with “then you do it”. Doors are usually shut rather quickly.

and I am not looking to rebuild the relationship. There is nothing left to rebuild. I just want to be best dad I can be under the current situation.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

DLC said:


> Ok, so here’s my question, looking for suggestions.
> 
> How to tell the spouse, as nicely as possible without sounding like an huge a-hole, that “I am bending over backwards and do all those extra work for the family is that, I am doing them for kids, not you. So don’t get any wrong idea.” 😅
> 
> ...


They're your kids, right? So one would expect you to bend over backwards to do things for them. Are you just trying to make a point with her that you don't like her anymore? Guessing she's picked up on that.


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## DLC (Sep 19, 2021)

happyhusband0005 said:


> If the marriage is that bad I would think they know this. Why not just say this marriage is dead, I think it's best to stay together until the kids are all adults, so lets try to put on an act the kids will eventually see right through until they are out of college before we tell them what they already know.
> 
> I'm saying this to also say why waste years of your life, your kids probably already know things are bad, kids are very perceptive.





oldshirt said:


> If it’s all about the kids, what can you do for the kids in this terrible marriage that you couldn’t do for them on your own?
> 
> What are you actually accomplishing by staying that you couldn’t on your own?


it’s my intention to keep an intact “family”. It’s my believe that having both parents around is better than having single parent family. I couldn’t be wrong. But I have no intention to break up the family at this point. I don’t want revenge, I don’t want make her pay for the way she treats me, I just want the best for the kids, and I want out when the kids can understand sometimes marriage doesn’t work.

there is no fighting, no throwing plates, we don’t yell at each other. I tried my best to “act normal” when we are in front of the kids. I am trying to play a role of a “normal husband” in front of kids so it’s not like I am just sitting there like a dead fish. 😅 You can call it roommates, co-parenting, or co-workers. ok, maybe a lazy do-work who doesn’t do much and you basically have to pull the weight for her. Haha

at this point, we are not ready to admit “the marriage is dead and let’s just play pretend until the kids are all grown up”. I know her enough that she will cause as much pain for me as possible as at all cost, even in the expensive of other things or people. I just don’t want the kids to be affected by that in any way shape or form.

If we don’t have kids, I would run out the door so fast even The Flash can’t catch me. 😅🤣


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

Co-parenting is defined as both parents doing their portions of the workload and nurturing required of raising kids.

You do not have that situation, which is why you feel the way you do.

Saying you will stay until they are done with College also? It seems like you looking for reasons to remain in this misery.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

DLC said:


> it’s my intention to keep an intact “family”. It’s my believe that having both parents around is better than having single parent family. I couldn’t be wrong. But I have no intention to break up the family at this point. I don’t want revenge, I don’t want make her pay for the way she treats me, I just want the best for the kids, and I want out when the kids can understand sometimes marriage doesn’t work.
> 
> there is no fighting, no throwing plates, we don’t yell at each other. I tried my best to “act normal” when we are in front of the kids. I am trying to play a role of a “normal husband” in front of kids so it’s not like I am just sitting there like a dead fish. 😅 You can call it roommates, co-parenting, or co-workers. ok, maybe a lazy do-work who doesn’t do much and you basically have to pull the weight for her. Haha
> 
> ...


I get why you want to keep it intact and you are correct under normal circumstances a 2 parent household is better for the kids. However that is in a 2 parent household where the kids have a health marriage as an example. Kids are very perceptive unless you both have the acting talent of a multi oscar winner they kids will see through the act. In the end the stress and anxiety they are caused living within a miserable marriage wipes out any benefit of the 2 parent home. Perhaps you could find a good family therapist and ask them their thoughts.


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## DLC (Sep 19, 2021)

re16 said:


> Saying you will stay until they are done with College also? It seems like you looking for reasons to remain in this misery.


I don’t know, maybe …

“Just gonna stand there and watch me burn?
Well, that's alright, because I like the way it hurts”

😅


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DLC said:


> I just want the best for the kids, and I want out when the kids can understand sometimes marriage doesn’t work.


I'm calling BS on this. 

My best friend's parents divorced when we were 10 years old. I knew what divorce was at that age but this was one of my first real exposures to it as this was a tiny, midwest farming community in the mid 1970s. 

I asked my friend why his parents were divorced and why his father no longer lived with him.... his answer was, "because they don't like each other anymore. " 

Is there really anything there that he didn't understand?

So if a 10 year old in the middle of midwest farm country in the mid 70s understood why marriages don't always work - why won't young adult college students in today's world understand?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

DLC said:


> 17 yrs. 😅
> 
> Trust me, I am counting. Haha


So your youngest is what, 1 year old?
Why did you have children when the marriage is so awful?


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## Kaliber (Apr 10, 2020)

DLC said:


> it’s my intention to keep an intact “family”. It’s my believe that having both parents around is better than having single parent family. I couldn’t be wrong. But I have no intention to break up the family at this point. I don’t want revenge, I don’t want make her pay for the way she treats me, I just want the best for the kids, and I want out when the kids can understand sometimes marriage doesn’t work.
> 
> there is no fighting, no throwing plates, we don’t yell at each other. I tried my best to “act normal” when we are in front of the kids. I am trying to play a role of a “normal husband” in front of kids so it’s not like I am just sitting there like a dead fish. 😅 You can call it roommates, co-parenting, or co-workers. ok, maybe a lazy do-work who doesn’t do much and you basically have to pull the weight for her. Haha
> 
> ...


This might work!
But you will know the result when your kids start having their own relationships, only then you will know if your sacrifices payed off!
It could back fire on you big time!
How do I know that? My dad did what you're doing!
We saw the difference when we visited our friends and saw their parents!
My mom was a narcissist and my dad kept the peace!
He divorced her after 25 years!
The damage was already done to us!


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

re16 said:


> Saying you will stay until they are done with College also? It seems like you looking for reasons to remain in this misery.


i would think the day the last one ENTERS college would be a good time to get the heck out of dodge.

Kids are resilient. Once they are away at college, they have other issues that take up their time, and hearing that you two are getting a divorce then would be a more minor event.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

The fact you believe this is a workable solution for your specified 17 years kind of makes it sound like you're unable to make good decisions.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

17 years? No way!


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

No one can really pass judgement on what anyone else does with this decision, IMO...What works for one, could be disastrous for another...

I am one that believes that if you can find a way to make it work, so that both parents can have decent lives, not fight all the time, and keep it together for the kids, then its probably better than turning their lives upside down, to be shuttled from one home to another, and all the other crap associated with blowing it all up..Kids, especially when younger, care more about their own needs than anything their parents want or need, and that's how its meant to be...Its what is designed into all humans for survival.. That other stuff comes later on as an adult..

The bigger the house, the easier it is to do...Usually most couples don't need any formal discussion or declaration if their marriage or relationship is in the toilet...Set up separate areas in the house...You can share meals together, and hopefully peaceably coexist.. Help each other with chores and stuff for the kids, similar to room mates or divorced couples...When you feel the time is right, then cut the cord...

Most do it until kids go to college...Its easier if they are away at college.. Ignore the noise coming from people that think your kids will be better off if you divorced when they are little, etc.. If it worked for them, great, but they aren't you, and they didn't create your kids..


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

I guarantee you will not last 17 years in this situation. One of you will pull the trigger on divorce, because things will be so horrible. 

Also, waiting until the last one is DONE with college is absurd. No, you don't need to wait unil your youngest child is 22 years old to divorce. 

Older teens and people in their 20s don't want a parent who "lives for them".


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

hamadryad said:


> No one can really pass judgement on what anyone else does with this decision, IMO...What works for one, could be disastrous for another...
> 
> I am one that believes that if you can find a way to make it work, so that both parents can have decent lives, not fight all the time, and keep it together for the kids, then its probably better than turning their lives upside down, to be shuttled from one home to another, and all the other crap associated with blowing it all up..Kids, especially when younger, care more about their own needs than anything their parents want or need, and that's how its meant to be...Its what is designed into all humans for survival.. That other stuff comes later on as an adult..
> 
> ...


Disagree. Providing a family that is not really a family to your children is harmful.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> The fact you believe this is a workable solution for your specified 17 years kind of makes it sound like you're unable to make good decisions.


Yep, excuses to avoid any decision.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Martyrdom is hard thankless work. There is no magic here.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

hamadryad said:


> No one can really pass judgement on what anyone else does with this decision, IMO...What works for one, could be disastrous for another...
> 
> I am one that believes that if you can find a way to make it work, so that both parents can have decent lives, not fight all the time, and keep it together for the kids, then its probably better than turning their lives upside down, to be shuttled from one home to another, and all the other crap associated with blowing it all up..Kids, especially when younger, care more about their own needs than anything their parents want or need, and that's how its meant to be...Its what is designed into all humans for survival.. That other stuff comes later on as an adult..
> 
> ...


Providing a pretend family won't work that long, and the cracks will easily be observed by the kids.

You'll be providing a horrible example of what a M looks like to your kids and they'll follow that bad example. 

Do you really want that or do you want them to have happy Ms for real, when they marry?


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Livvie said:


> Disagree. Providing a family that is not really a family to your children is harmful.



For you, maybe...for others likely not..

This business that kids think or care if their parents are happy is the biggest joke I ever heard...Probably brought about by divorce lawyers and parents trying to relieve themselves of guilt for turning their lives upside down...Kids are selfish.. Would they prefer to have a family like the Cleavers? Sure, but at the end of the day,.they only care about what is good for them...Divorcing is almost never good for them...Sometimes necessary, not really ever all that good..

See, in either case, there isn't any "family"...Not in the sense where their parents are together and unified and everyone is happy.... Its just FAR less traumatic if parents can find a way to peaceably co exist,..not all can, and in those cases, divorce is the only option...But that is not the feeling I am getting from the OP..

Divorce, fighting, degradation of lifestyle, less money, see parents less, maybe have a variety of different and strange men/women in their lives, maybe trying to parent them, etc..

OR

Stay, live separate but peaceful lives in the same domicile they are accustomed to, stay at the same school. no degradation of lifestyle, etc.. no strangers in and out etc..

Pick your poison...Neither way is "good".. for kids, anyway...

Obviously some people do have to divorce, as there is no way to peaceably do anything...so then just blow it all up...But that's not the feeling I am getting from the OP...


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## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

Get a divorce. Living with a woman you hate or are indifferent to is horrible for your kids. The fact that you don't want a relationship and think you can con your kids for 17 years is a joke. Your wife deserves much better than a man who wants nothing to do with her, and has zero interest in her at all. This is a farce.


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## D0nnivain (Mar 13, 2021)

If you are "done with the marriage" just get a divorce. Nobody is going to compromise with somebody they don't like. 


You don't think your spouse is pulling her weight. Of course she is letting things slide because you are "done with the marriage". Sticking around for 17 years until the kids are out of college is a silly idea. 

This probably could have been fixed before things got this bad. You are now too angry & resentful. Hence your idea that you are "done with the marriage." You have no desire to improve the situation. You simply want to punish her. 

Had you come to us before reaching a point of no return, I would have encouraged you to figure out what the present division of labor is & what you want it to be. You can't attack. You have to discuss. Whatever you think it ought to be is not exactly how it will end up. Once her side gets factored in there will be changes. Only when you work together to create a shared vision will things be equitable. None of that can happen now because the very idea of her p1sses you off. 

What you should have done was first make a list of all the household tasks. Write it all down. 

Then you would figure out what you do, what she does & what the kids do. See what you can jettison. See what the kids can do more of. 

Make a budget. Is there anyway you can pay somebody else to do that which you hate? As I'm typing, it's snowing. Both DH & I hate shoveling snow. In a little while the teenager across the street will come over & shovel. We will pay him. Much cheaper than having a fight about getting the snow cleared. 

Once you figure out the core of what has to be done by you & your spouse, you should have sat down & talked with her about a more equitable division of labor. When she does do a task, you should not have criticized how it was done. You should just have been thankful you didn't have to do it. For example, I can't stand how DH loads the dishwasher. He uses the space inefficiently so you can't get as many dishes in, which means it runs too often & dishes remain in the sink. But when he runs it, I'm just happy I didn't have to. If I am loading after him, I move the dishes to maximize the load but don't yell at him. The I sweetly ask him to unload. Picking a fight over the dishwasher undermines the marriage. You use trivial stuff like this to fester your wounds & carry on about how you are taken advantage of. You made the whole thing more toxic. 

Do not stick around for another 17 years. If you insist on staying, then live with it as they are. Never expect her to do another thing. Even though she may benefit from your efforts you can't think like that nor will you motivate her to change. Why should she? She's happy enough the way things are -- with you doing it all in your eyes. She's probably sitting there thinking it's not worth trying because whatever she does won't be good enough in your eyes & you will just criticize.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Almost two decades remaining for your children to observe their parents’ dysfunctional marriage (and they definitely will be observing because that’s what children do)? My mother stayed with my father for me. That did not make for a happy home and I don’t recommend it.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

If she is lazy and a crappy mother, making her a single mother wont turn her around...It will most probably get way worse....And he kids will be the one's suffering the most...

Add to that, the likelihood that the OP will have to work harder(and live a lot leaner) to make support payments, the misery just gets piled on...

A lot of people that never had kids, don't ever understand this...We all decided to put these kids on this earth, they didn't thrust themselves on us...For better or worse, parents then are typically left(if they truly care, some don't and only care about themselves) to eat a lot of crap sandwiches....usually for a period of around 20-25 years...

Measure twice and cut once....as they say...


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

DLC said:


> _*17 yrs. 😅
> 
> Trust me, I am counting. Haha*_


Could you BE any more pathetic?

So you're going to play the victim and be a martyr for 17 YEARS just so you can tell everyone what a good father you are for sacrificing your emotional and mental health needs in order to stay where you're miserable?

Stop using your kids as an excuse for staying because you lack the spine to stand up for yourself and move on to a better life. And that's exactly what you're doing.

If I had a dime for every whining spouse who claims they're SO unhappy but they're staying "for the children and sacrificing their OWN happiness" I'd own my own island. What a crock of bull-****.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

DLC said:


> Ok, so here’s my question, looking for suggestions.
> 
> How to tell the spouse, as nicely as possible without sounding like an huge a-hole, that “I am bending over backwards and do all those extra work for the family is that, I am doing them for kids, not you. So don’t get any wrong idea.” 😅
> 
> ...


You don't tell her that. You set your boundaries. You learn to say "No". No discussion, no arguments. Just "No".

You suck it up and do what has to be done for your kids. Use the magical new "No" for other things.

You grey rock the rest.

And you hope that in 12-15 years you don't get taken to the cleaners by your walkaway wife in family court.

Or, you bring it all to a head now, and accept you will only be in your kids' lives 21-50% of the time going forward.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Dude.

you aren’t making it 17 years.

it sounds like you are trying to set up some sort of roommates situation so that further down the line you can bring up an open relationship.

your Kids will eventually sniff that out. If you want to raise them to see how a healthy relationship flourishes, I suggest getting a divorce because you playing pretend won’t cut it.


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## Mybabysgotit (Jul 1, 2019)

DLC said:


> it’s my intention to keep an intact “family”. It’s my believe that having both parents around is better than having single parent family. I couldn’t be wrong. But I have no intention to break up the family at this point. I don’t want revenge, I don’t want make her pay for the way she treats me, I just want the best for the kids, and I want out when the kids can understand sometimes marriage doesn’t work.
> 
> If we don’t have kids, I would run out the door so fast even The Flash can’t catch me. 😅🤣


keep telling yourself that and maybe, just maybe, you'll start to believe it.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

DLC said:


> conversation doesn’t work.She will go on the offensive every time i mention something minor even and the conversation usually ends with “then you do it”. Doors are usually shut rather quickly.
> 
> and I am not looking to rebuild the relationship. There is nothing left to rebuild. I just want to be best dad I can be under the current situation.


When time comes for divorce papers, hand them to her and say "You don't have to worry....Look! I already did it!"


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## DLC (Sep 19, 2021)

thanks for the different prospective. The debate is still going on inside my head. But so far, I still fail to see how a divorce is better than stay together as roommates, for the kids.

In case of an “ideal” divorce, which both parties comes to mutual agreement on terms, works with each other for the benefit of the kids with joint custody, and have a happily married loving family on both side so the kids are enjoying healthy family dynamic on each side … then yeah, divorce can be a better option than my current situation for everyone.

sadly I know it won’t be the case, I know her well enough. so I am still not convinced that having the kids at young age experiencing an ugly divorce is good for them and set them up for the right track for their future marriage. The question remains, maybe we both will be able to find someone quickly, build up a happy and welcoming families for the kids to grow up 50% at each home. That’s an unknown, but what I know is things will for sure turn south very quickly and very bad before it will level off and then maybe around slowly I don’t want that for kids at young age.

Look, I won’t even bad mouth how horrible my wife is to the kids behind her back. I really don’t want to be the one that show them “how bad their mom can be” with a divorce. Maybe as the kids grow up, and if I teach them right, they will see the difference between “hard working” and “hardly working”. 😅

and the current family dynamic is not hostile, not horrible. We are not fighting, no arguing, no punching. Ok, the kids won’t see daddy and mommy hugging and kissing. But at least on my part, I am spending lots of time with kids as a dad, and being a decent “roommate”.

Oh and I am not angry, not resentful, not trying to make her suffer, not going for revenge. I am just working on the things that I can change, within my power, to not break up the family for the time being. And besides an unsatisfying marriage, my life is not horrible. I still appreciate the rest of my families, friends, decent job, my hobbies.

what I am trying to say is that “I am done with the marriage” doesn’t mean that “I hate her”. It means “I have enough of this, I know it’s not going to change, and I don’t want to be part of this when the chance comes.” I look at this as if “I go a restaurant, the food taste horrible. Then I just want to leave and not come back. I don’t turn into “I hate this restaurant and I wish it got burn down.”” 😅

gutless? Not able to make a decision? Maybe. But “using kids as an excuse”? i don’t think I am. But hey, i am biased. Haha


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## DLC (Sep 19, 2021)

Mybabysgotit said:


> keep telling yourself that and maybe, just maybe, you'll start to believe it.


I thought I heard this somewhere, “if you keep on lying, maybe that lie will come true. Otherwise the worst case is you will become a good lier.” Haha


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

your kids will grow and eventually will understand that what you taught them was how to be a coward. They will have little respect for you then.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Hopefully you have told your wife that you intend to leave her in 17 years. Maybe she will call it a day now.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

Seems like you’ve got it


DLC said:


> thanks for the different prospective. The debate is still going on inside my head. But so far, I still fail to see how a divorce is better than stay together as roommates, for the kids.
> 
> In case of an “ideal” divorce, which both parties comes to mutual agreement on terms, works with each other for the benefit of the kids with joint custody, and have a happily married loving family on both side so the kids are enjoying healthy family dynamic on each side … then yeah, divorce can be a better option than my current situation for everyone.
> 
> ...


Seems like you’ve got it completely figured out.


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## DLC (Sep 19, 2021)

re16 said:


> Seems like you’ve got it
> 
> Seems like you’ve got it completely figured out.
> 
> One question though, in your other thread, you stated your youngest was 12, assuming college starts at 18, where is this 17 years coming from?


I did? I don’t think thats me. Or was it a typo from me?

my oldest is not even 12 yet.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

DLC said:


> I did? I don’t think thats me. Or was it a typo from me?
> 
> my oldest is not even 12 yet.


My mistake! Corrected….
If you are going to stay, why not focus on trying revive your relationship while you are there.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Rob_1 said:


> your kids will grow and eventually will understand that what you taught them was how to be a coward. They will have little respect for you then.


This right here. My sister and I wished my dad had the balls to leave our mom and find someone who treated him with love and kindness. Mom was a ***** and dad took it. 

In my eyes he was a pathetic excuse for a man that just laid down and let mom wipe her feet on him then resented her for it.

Mom was controlling and *****y and no one wanted to be around her...still don't. She has changed some since dad's death 3 yrs ago and has regrets now. But the damage is done. She is alone with her dog. I give her a quick call about every 2-3 weeks to check in when I remember to.


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## DLC (Sep 19, 2021)

Rob_1 said:


> your kids will grow and eventually will understand that what you taught them was how to be a coward. They will have little respect for you then.


I do want to understand more from this, maybe I am not seeing something that I am not seeing. 😅

Not disagreeing, but why would my kids think I am coward if I tell them “your mom and I are separating” after they graduate college? Given that I do what I can to be a decent dad? Who knows? Maybe I will turn into a deadbeat alcoholic dad in 3 years, but let’s say that didn’t happen. Haha.

I am sure they will ask “why” at that time, but I don’t plan on saying “your mom is a horrible person who do nothing around the house and sit on sofa with her phone all night, and I basically do everything around house pays all the bills and it was a loveless sexless marriage for the last 25 years, and I am only staying in this terrible marriage for you.” Man, that’s longer than I thought. Haha. 🤣

the answer to the question will liking to be “your mom and I grow apart , now we want different things, and I think we can enjoy life on our separate ways, and we love you all the same, blah blah blah.” 😁

but again, there’s a long way to go, I have plenty of time to work on the speech. LOL.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

DLC said:


> conversation doesn’t work.She will go on the offensive every time i mention something minor even and the conversation usually ends with “then you do it”. Doors are usually shut rather quickly.
> 
> and I am not looking to rebuild the relationship. There is nothing left to rebuild. I just want to be best dad I can be under the current situation.


So, I'm not a parent, but I would think that kids can tell the difference between a stable relationship between their folks versus an unstable one. So, the best thing that you could probably do for your kids is to sit down with your wife, and tell her that things just aren't working out anymore, and that you would like to part amicably and co-parent peacefully. Otherwise you guys are showing your kids what a relationship looks like, and if yours isn't good, then that's what they'll also find in a partner in the future.


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## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

You do resent your wife and you clearly do not even like her. That is obvious to kids. I feel for your wife. Trapping her in a life with a man that despises her so you aren't inconvenienced is despicable. 

You're not doing this for your kids. You're doing it to avoid change and unpleasant feelings/ actions.

Let me guess... you'll stay in this sham and cheat the next 17 years. Great example.Not.


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## DLC (Sep 19, 2021)

Divinely Favored said:


> This right here. My sister and I wished my dad had the balls to leave our mom and find someone who treated him with love and kindness. Mom was a *** and dad took it.
> 
> In my eyes he was a pathetic excuse for a man that just laid down and let mom wipe her feet on him then resented her for it.
> 
> Mom was controlling and *****y and no one wanted to be around her...still don't. She has changed some since dad's death 3 yrs ago and has regrets now. But the damage is done. She is alone with her dog. I give her a quick call about every 2-3 weeks to check in when I remember to.


wait, please don’t take it the wrong way, back to the question. From that, do you consider your dad a coward and you have little respect fhim?

or do you love and respect him the same just “wished” he could have done better for himself cause he deserves better? Was he noticeably angry or sad all the times back in the days? Or complain about your mom to you?

just trying to understand it more so I don’t become that.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

DLC said:


> I do want to understand more from this, maybe I am not seeing something that I am not seeing. 😅
> 
> Not disagreeing, but why would my kids think I am coward if I tell them “your mom and I are separating” after they graduate college? Given that I do what I can to be a decent dad? Who knows? Maybe I will turn into a deadbeat alcoholic dad in 3 years, but let’s say that didn’t happen. Haha.
> 
> ...


Read above commentary by @Divinely Favored. That should give you an idea. Your children as adults they will have the intellect to understand that what you did was a self sacrifice in order not to confront reality, and do what's right for you. Before I go any further, I want to make clear to you that children are not some sort of little individuals living oblivious to what's going around their surroundings. Because their survival depends on adults, they by necessity have a six sense and are a sponge assimilating everything. So if you think that you can fool them you are sadly mistaken. They will growth to learn that your loveless marriage is the norm, and most likely will grow to repeat your teachings. In other words, you are setting them for failure in their romantic life, teaching them to put up rather than making the correct decisions for themselves. So going back to the statement that you are going to teach them to be cowards, as adults they will realize that you were a man, that did not have balls, no integrity, that self sacrifice in order for them in order to avoid taking responsibility and doing what was suppose to be the correct path for YOU.

Children are nurtured, and grow better/happier in two happy homes, rather than a miserable one. That's the bottom line.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

DLC said:


> thanks for the different prospective. The debate is still going on inside my head. But so far, I still fail to see how a divorce is better than stay together as roommates, for the kids.
> 
> In case of an “ideal” divorce, which both parties comes to mutual agreement on terms, works with each other for the benefit of the kids with joint custody, and have a happily married loving family on both side so the kids are enjoying healthy family dynamic on each side … then yeah, divorce can be a better option than my current situation for everyone.
> 
> ...


Why don't you D and go for the kids living with you as their primary domicile?

If the mother is so terrible, that isn't an unattainable target.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I knew exactly what was wrong with my parents' marriage at age 12, because their flaws were unavoidably obvious. 

If, as you claim, you are already doing everything that gets done for the family and your wife is doing nothing, how exactly could your wife "make it hard" on you any more than that? I guess you're talking money. Yes, she'll get half of the assets and life you built together and the same amount of custody as you'll get and on her custody days, she'll be fully responsible to do everything in her household and with the kids on her dime - - and on yours, I guess that won't be much of a change for you since you are doing it all already, so divorce with young kids will actually give you half your time and energy back. I don't see the down side for you. The kids will still see each parent 3 1/2 days a week, but they won't be sensing the seething hatred at least. And they do. They're not stupid.


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## DLC (Sep 19, 2021)

Rob_1 said:


> Read above commentary by @Divinely Favored. That should give you an idea. Your children as adults they will have the intellect to understand that what you did was a self sacrifice in order not to confront reality, and do what's right for you. Before I go any further, I want to make clear to you that children are not some sort of little individuals living oblivious to what's going around their surroundings. Because their survival depends on adults, they by necessity have a six sense and are a sponge assimilating everything. So if you think that you can fool them you are sadly mistaken. They will growth to learn that your loveless marriage is the norm, and most likely will grow to repeat your teachings. In other words, you are setting them for failure in their romantic life, teaching them to put up rather than making the correct decisions for themselves. So going back to the statement that you are going to teach them to be cowards, as adults they will realize that you were a man, that did not have balls, no integrity, that self sacrifice in order for them in order to avoid taking responsibility and doing what was suppose to be the correct path for YOU.
> 
> Children are nurtured, and grow better/happier in two happy homes, rather than a miserable one. That's the bottom line.


good to know this point of view. So what I am doing may be more selfish than selfless.

yet, I am still thinking which is worse, a “loveless marriage as norm” or a “broke home as norm”. I know neither is good. On top of that, two happy homes after divorce is questionable as well. A divorce of loveless marriage doesn’t not turn into two happy but separated homes by default. I am not saying it’s impossible. But there is also a chance that it will turn into a long ugly fight as well. I don’t know. I don’t have an answer to that. 

I remember I ask that question as my first post here. Haha. 😅


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

DLC said:


> So what I am doing may be more selfish than selfless.


Neither, you would be doing the cowardly way out in my opinion.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

OMG... This is how this thread reads to me:



> _I purchased a house and the power went out as soon as I moved in. How can I live in this house for another 17 years without power nor making any efforts to improve this home as the owner?_


OK you married you wife for some reason. Sounds like you now resent the crap out of each other. Perhaps you want to work on that and see if you can forgive each other and rebuild/rekindle your marriage. 

To assume that you are going to stick around for 17 years with zero effort to reconcile your marriage is just straight up kindergarten mentality of being stubborn as a temper tantrum until things go your way.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Ok math check. sexless marriage for 25 years. That makes you at least 45 years old ish.
17 years to youngest college education. that makes that kid 5 ish.
That means that that kid was conceived when you and your wife were around 40, and had been sexless for 20 years
How am I doing?
For clarity could you give us a simple time line and children's ages?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

DLC said:


> good to know this point of view. So what I am doing may be more selfish than selfless.
> 
> yet, I am still thinking which is worse, a “loveless marriage as norm” or a “broke home as norm”. I know neither is good. On top of that, two happy homes after divorce is questionable as well. A divorce of loveless marriage doesn’t not turn into two happy but separated homes by default. I am not saying it’s impossible. But there is also a chance that it will turn into a long ugly fight as well. I don’t know. I don’t have an answer to that.
> 
> I remember I ask that question as my first post here. Haha. 😅


Reality is you want your described solution to be the answer and are continuously trying to convince yourself its for the best. But it's not the best. On top of that you'll end up paying more in the end when the W leaves you for a very valid reason. IE you stole her life chances of finding a partner that loves her and shared her life with her, by stringing this along knowing you'll be abandoning her.

She isn't likely to go along with your shenanigans btw. As she matures and gains confidence she'll leave you in a hot minute.


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## DLC (Sep 19, 2021)

Mr. Nail said:


> Ok math check. sexless marriage for 25 years. That makes you at least 45 years old ish.
> 17 years to youngest college education. that makes that kid 5 ish.
> That means that that kid was conceived when you and your wife were around 40, and had been sexless for 20 years
> How am I doing?
> For clarity could you give us a simple time line and children's ages?


spot on 😁


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

@DLC, you say that you aren't angry at your wife, that you don't resent her, etc. Yet, the way that you type and the amount of emoticons that you use (😅🤣😁) when describing your situation dictate otherwise. You seem to be filled with anger that's boiling just under the surface, and you can bet your bottom dollar that your wife knows, and your kids do too. I wish you well in trying to figure this mess out, and hopefully you can do a little growing and maturing in it yourself. I will also keep my fingers crossed that your wife has more balls than you do, and will be the one to do the right thing, whether that be initiating getting (a lot of) help for the both of you, or issuing divorce papers.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

45 + 17 = 62
You participated in conception in a well broken marriage. I would tell you that you won't make it another 17 years, or that she will wise up to you, but:
1) I don't have a leg to stand on.
2) Your staying record tells me that you will never leave.
3) Your wife shows signs of NPD, if that is the case she will cling to you like a barnacle.
What I would do in your shoes is to declare 12 hours a week as your free time. Ideally you would use that time to date, but since you have stated your stance against that, Make it hobby time. That is time that you are away from the house and your wife has to care for her children, and cook for those children. This is the way you can start to soften her to participation in family life. As time goes on you should add more time away, until she becomes comfortable with being a family member. I think this is the best you can do. It also is a way for you to put your foot down.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Gotta wonder how many of the posters that are recommending the OP cut and run, and leave your kids to whatever happens don't have kids, and probably never will...

Not being critical, everyone has a right to an opinion or suggestion, but I would be hesitant to recommend any advice to anyone, if I never had any kids...I would not have the perspective to even remotely understand....


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

hamadryad said:


> Gotta wonder how many of the posters that are recommending the OP cut and run, and leave your kids to whatever happens don't have kids, and probably never will...
> 
> Not being critical, everyone has a right to an opinion or suggestion, but I would be hesitant to recommend any advice to anyone, if I never had any kids...I would not have the perspective to even remotely understand....


My BF is divorced and has 2 kids, so while I don't have kids of my own, I have a front seat to see into their lives. Yes, the divorce has affected both kids, but I can say with absolute certainty that they are in a better situation now than before. Their mother is a bit of a trainwreck and is very unstable (reason for divorce). BF is stable, and offers a stable home and somewhere safe for them to fall. The relationship that BF and I have is also stable, and the kids see that and the way that we interact and banter. They can see the love and respect there, and are getting to know that that is more "normal" than what they came from. So, yes, I get that I cannot understand 100%, but to say that a person who doesn't have kids cannot even remotely understand is bollocks.


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## DLC (Sep 19, 2021)

hamadryad said:


> Gotta wonder how many of the posters that are recommending the OP cut and run, and leave your kids to whatever happens don't have kids, and probably never will...
> 
> Not being critical, everyone has a right to an opinion or suggestion, but I would be hesitant to recommend any advice to anyone, if I never had any kids...I would not have the perspective to even remotely understand....


not worries, I haven’t run to the nearest divorce lawyer office just because the the internet said I am secretly an angry resentful coward. 😅

it was good though to hear other prospective. I think it’s useful when I reflect on my decision and action, and try to figure how tomorrow would / should go.

I wished I have a crystal ball or a one size fits all solution. I don’t know. I can only go by my past experience, my observation and my judgement to decide what I should do. There are always more to the back story than what’s been told. And this is just my side of the story. Who knows, maybe I am the one who is delusional and instead I am the deadbeat dad. 🤣


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## DLC (Sep 19, 2021)

Mr. Nail said:


> 45 + 17 = 62
> You participated in conception in a well broken marriage. I would tell you that you won't make it another 17 years, or that she will wise up to you, but:
> 1) I don't have a leg to stand on.
> 2) Your staying record tells me that you will never leave.
> ...


thank you for the suggestion. I think it’s a good idea. This is something that I can work on.

I do listen and read about NPD, I am no psychologist so I can’t make any diagnosis, but there are things that I can relate.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Well... I don't play so my advice is to require improvement because it's a delusional goal you are aiming for.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

DLC said:


> just because the the internet said I am secretly an angry resentful coward. 😅


That's correct. You're just getting 
other people's opinions. You take what you can use, discard the rest.


I have children and if what you say is as it is, then in your situation, I would divorce. The kids grow and leave to make their own life, and I for one will not be left without a life of my own trying to get one when I'm old.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Something isn't right here. You keep putting laughing emojis in your responses along with "lol." Nothing funny or amusing about your situation. Nothing at all.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you basically saying you are going to go without sex for the next 17 years? Oh, and if you actually divorce in 17 years, you do realize your wife is entitled to half the earnings you accrue over the course of the marriage, right?

Nah. You're not going anywhere. And cut the crap with all the "laughter." Like I said, there's not one damn thing funny about this.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

RitaPieri said:


> hmm...if you are not there for you partner then you should not be there walk out from anything toxic for you. If the other person is taking the piss its time to be honest.
> here listen to this its free it may help you it sure help me
> How to Talk to Your Partner
> let me know how it goes


Spam advertising is not allowed.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

DLC said:


> not worries, I haven’t run to the nearest divorce lawyer office just because the the internet said I am secretly an angry resentful coward. 😅
> 
> it was good though to hear other prospective. I think it’s useful when I reflect on my decision and action, and try to figure how tomorrow would / should go.
> 
> I wished I have a crystal ball or a one size fits all solution. I don’t know. I can only go by my past experience, my observation and my judgement to decide what I should do. There are always more to the back story than what’s been told. And this is just my side of the story. Who knows, maybe I am the one who is delusional and instead I am the deadbeat dad. 🤣



If you have the ability to PM and would like some more perspective on what you are considering, feel free to drop me a message...


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Ursula said:


> . They can see the love and respect there, and are getting to know that that is more "normal" than what they came from. So, yes, I get that I cannot understand 100%, *but to say that a person who doesn't have kids cannot even remotely understand is bollocks.*


I have been around women all my life, add to that a medical/biological formal education, and I know just about everything someone could know about a woman's menstrual cycle......without having to experience it myself...Because of that last aspect, no way would I give a woman any advice about how to deal with it, how she should feel, etc....because quite frankly, I can't remotely understand it..

It's kinda like that, but hey, as they say, you do you, no problem...


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

DLC said:


> I just don’t want the kids to be affected by that in any way shape or form.


That's an impossible dream. Divorce is a life changing trauma for kids, no matter which way you slice it, the bottom falls out of their world.



hamadryad said:


> This business that kids think or care if their parents are happy is the biggest joke I ever heard...Probably brought about by divorce lawyers and parents trying to relieve themselves of guilt for turning their lives upside down...Kids are selfish.. Would they prefer to have a family like the Cleavers? Sure, but at the end of the day,.they only care about what is good for them...Divorcing is almost never good for them...Sometimes necessary, not really ever all that good..
> 
> See, in either case, there isn't any "family"...Not in the sense where their parents are together and unified and everyone is happy.... Its just FAR less traumatic if parents can find a way to peaceably co exist,..not all can, and in those cases, divorce is the only option...But that is not the feeling I am getting from the OP..
> 
> ...


I 100% agree with everything above.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

frusdil said:


> That's an impossible dream. Divorce is a life changing trauma for kids, no matter which way you slice it, the bottom falls out of their world.
> 
> 
> 
> I 100% agree with everything above.


Yes, what he says is correct. But, there's always a but; does OP knows for sure that in a few years his wife or him, or both will be able to keep the harmony and not go for the throat at each other? 17 years is a long time. There's people that had swindle it, but for the big majority it was/is a disaster where everyone pays the price. And what about both of their life's when they're old trying to start anew at that age?


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## DLC (Sep 19, 2021)

Prodigal said:


> Something isn't right here. You keep putting laughing emojis in your responses along with "lol." Nothing funny or amusing about your situation. Nothing at all.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you basically saying you are going to go without sex for the next 17 years? Oh, and if you actually divorce in 17 years, you do realize your wife is entitled to half the earnings you accrue over the course of the marriage, right?
> 
> Nah. You're not going anywhere. And cut the crap with all the "laughter." Like I said, there's not one damn thing funny about this.


good point about the money problem after another 17 years. I wonder if I should screw up my kids now or screw up my bank account later? Haha 😁 crap. I am doing it again.

looks like I am screwed if do, screwed if I don’t. 😅 crap, I am doing that again and again.

And no, my situation is not “haha” funny. And yea I am most certainly hiding behind my laughter for obvious reason. But do I have to be angry and resentful all the times? Can I just do it sometimes? Life is hard, and already is hard enough, why so serious? (Batman reference 😁)

There are thing in my current situation that I most certainly can’t change, but I choose to come to terms with it (accept it as things that I can change and things that I can’t have), give it a few laughs, and carry on with my life. This seems to beat other more expensive ways to deal with problems like alcohol and drugs. 😆

And you are correct about me not going anywhere. But no worries, the mystery is all mine. (James Bond reference 🤣)


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Have you ever considered if you tell her she’ll divorce you? Is that your plan make her the bad guy?

Of course I believe she deserves the truth but if you feel so strongly that your staying for the kids is the right thing to do then why would you risk screwing that up?


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

DLC said:


> wait, please don’t take it the wrong way, back to the question. From that, do you consider your dad a coward and you have little respect fhim?
> 
> or do you love and respect him the same just “wished” he could have done better for himself cause he deserves better? Was he noticeably angry or sad all the times back in the days? Or complain about your mom to you?
> 
> just trying to understand it more so I don’t become that.


He would take her crap and you could tell it made him upset but he would not say anything . She would ridicule him in public and he would not speak. He was a weak man that allowed her to walk all over him. 

Instead of speaking up he would refuse to wear his hearing aids and turn the TV up high. So he stayed in Den and it aggravated mom so she stayed in bedroom. He was passive aggressive. 

She said things in public that I would slap my wife with D papers soo fast her head would spin if she did that to me. 

Dad had ED and mom would make comments in public of, "Even if I wanted sex, he couldn't get it up" She said this in front of my aunt and my sister's and my family. She said it another time to friend and nephew/wife at the table at a freaking busy restaurant....no quietly either but in a ridiculing manner. 

Just before he passed she started to change for the better but it was too little, too late. He just did things that would piss her off and keep her at away. He had been done for a while but never opened his mouth 

Those issues are things I learned from them. Avoidant behavior in relationships...being BETA and subservient to wife. Kids will pick up on the vibes and they will carry it into their F'up relationships.

I got to a breaking point in my marriage and I remember telling my wife "I don't want to be like my dad"


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Your response to me indicates just how angry you are. Nowhere did I say you should "screw up" your children or your finances. If you wish to remain in denial about your situation, that is fine. I was hoping a thoughtful narrative could ensue about a serious situation. Nowhere did I indicate you should be angry or resentful. I was merely asking if you had thought about the financial consequences of staying in the marriage and the lack of sex for many years.

Sadly, it appears you cannot or will not respond with anything other than thinly masked anger. Best of luck living in a sexless, loveless marriage.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Prodigal said:


> *Something isn't right here. You keep putting laughing emojis in your responses along with "lol." Nothing funny or amusing about your situation. Nothing at all.*
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you basically saying you are going to go without sex for the next 17 years? Oh, and if you actually divorce in 17 years, you do realize your wife is entitled to half the earnings you accrue over the course of the marriage, right?
> 
> Nah. You're not going anywhere. And cut the crap with all the "laughter." Like I said, there's not one damn thing funny about this.


I said pretty much the same thing above, too. Initially I felt for the OP, but the further I got into his thread and the more "Lol's" and laughing emojis I saw, the more I thought that something is just wrong here, and not just with the situation at hand.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Ursula said:


> I said pretty much the same thing above, too. Initially I felt for the OP, but the further I got into his thread and the more "Lol's" and laughing emojis I saw, the more I thought that something is just wrong here, and not just with the situation at hand.


I'm thinking the same.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

hamadryad said:


> I have been around women all my life, add to that a medical/biological formal education, and I know just about everything someone could know about a woman's menstrual cycle......without having to experience it myself...Because of that last aspect, no way would I give a woman any advice about how to deal with it, how she should feel, etc....because quite frankly, I can't remotely understand it..
> 
> It's kinda like that, but hey, as they say, you do you, no problem...


See, the thing is that people come here for relationship advice, and the people here give advice to the best of their abilities. Nowhere did I say that his kids wouldn't be affected if their parents divorced, in fact I said that they probably will be. I also prefaced my first post on this thread with "I'm not a parent". In other words, take my (and anyone's, TBH) advice with a grain of salt here. And by the way, medical advice from an unqualified person is MUCH different than relationship advice. We all have our own experiences, and can offer advice only based on those experiences.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Ursula said:


> See, the thing is that people come here for relationship advice, and the people here give advice to the best of their abilities. Nowhere did I say that his kids wouldn't be affected if their parents divorced, in fact I said that they probably will be. I also prefaced my first post on this thread with "I'm not a parent". In other words, take my (and anyone's, TBH) advice with a grain of salt here. And by the way, medical advice from an unqualified person is MUCH different than relationship advice. We all have our own experiences, and can offer advice only based on those experiences.


I'm a parent and as a kid gone through parent step parent multiple D scenarios. 

I can most absolutely say getting the D is much better for the kids. By a huge margin. Huge.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Just spit balling here, but my guess is the OP is the passive-aggressive type that masks his anger/rage/irritation with "humor." It's a defense mechanism. Y'know the type, "I was just joking!" is their response after they tear you a new one.

I must have hit a nerve to elicit so much sarcasm and defensiveness.

Maybe that's a good thing. Might prompt some self-reflection by the OP.


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## A18S37K14H18 (Dec 14, 2021)

DLC said:


> I am done with the marriage,


So get out of the marriage then, seems like you'd be a whole lot happier, which means you'd be a better parent for your children.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Ursula said:


> See, the thing is that people come here for relationship advice, and the people here give advice to the best of their abilities. Nowhere did I say that his kids wouldn't be affected if their parents divorced, in fact I said that they probably will be. I also prefaced my first post on this thread with "I'm not a parent". In other words, take my (and anyone's, TBH) advice with a grain of salt here. And by the way, medical advice from an unqualified person is MUCH different than relationship advice. We all have our own experiences, and can offer advice only based on those experiences.


Fair enough...

But bear in mind....I am telling you this from first hand experience.. If my mother left my dad when she legitimately could and should have, we would have been homeless...Period and end of story....Or at best, we would have had to be raised by relatives, which we did for a number of years...Now...That is extreme, but there are all kinds of grey area in between here...And all of us siblings recognize this and are eternally grateful for her sacrifice...We didn't sit around and bemoan the fact that she didn't have sex with anyone during that time, what did we care...Did you care if your parents were having sex as a kid? my guess is no,,,This whole narrative that kids will cheer you on when you divorce is ludicrous.., Additionally, this thinking that divorced people are all of a sudden happy as clams is nonsense as well...Most of the divorced people I know are also the most miserable...Some of them barely find anyone else to date or match up with either..

Bottom line is, no one can convince me that if two people are "done" with their marriage, from a romantic/sexual sense, aren't fighting, and are willing to agree to cohabitate, then that would be a worse scenario than blowing it all up and divorcing...And all this talk of 17 sexless years? If they don't care about the marriage anymore, why should they care who either one is effing?? How much is there to lose at that point??


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

hamadryad said:


> Fair enough...
> 
> But bear in mind....I am telling you this from first hand experience.. If my mother left my dad when she legitimately could and should have, we would have been homeless...Period and end of story....Or at best, we would have had to be raised by relatives, which we did for a number of years...Now...That is extreme, but there are all kinds of grey area in between here...And all of us siblings recognize this and are eternally grateful for her sacrifice...We didn't sit around and bemoan the fact that she didn't have sex with anyone during that time, what did we care...Did you care if your parents were having sex as a kid? my guess is no,,,This whole narrative that kids will cheer you on when you divorce is ludicrous.., Additionally, this thinking that divorced people are all of a sudden happy as clams is nonsense as well...Most of the divorced people I know are also the most miserable...Some of them barely find anyone else to date or match up with either..
> 
> Bottom line is, no one can convince me that if two people are "done" with their marriage, from a romantic/sexual sense, aren't fighting, and are willing to agree to cohabitate, then that would be a worse scenario than blowing it all up and divorcing...And all this talk of 17 sexless years? If they don't care about the marriage anymore, why should they care who either one is effing?? How much is there to lose at that point??


I see what you're saying, and respect where you're coming from. You are right, the situation that you came from is on the extreme side, whereas the majority of people find a way to make it work and keep a roof over their heads. I do get though that that isn't the case for some. That is great that your mother sacrificed for you and your siblings, and that you guys are thankful for her sacrifices.

You asked if I cared if my parents had sex when I was a child. I did, actually. It didn't happen often, thankfully, but when it did, they made sure that it wasn't private. Sure, if was in their bedroom, but with the door open, and their activities would wake me up. I got up more than once as a child and teen to shut their door. I remember once being asked in my early 20s why I shut their door last night. My reply "because you guys didn't" (my bedroom was directly across the hall from theirs at the time).

Also, I don't recall reading that children "cheer on" their parents throughout the divorce process, and I'd be surprised if that were the case. I would think that even in the cruddiest of circumstances, children would be hit hard by divorce. However, going from my own personal experiences, my parent's relationship (as well as other factors in theirs and my relationship) really played mind games and effed up all of the romantic relationships that would be in my future. It wasn't until after a failed marriage and then therapy that I started seeing the "why". I have no idea how my parents have made it through 50+ years of marriage. 🤷‍♀️

ETA: in regards to your last comment about not caring who the other is screwing, I would think that would be a bad idea, period. If you're going to stay together for the sake of the kids, then make sure that the sacrifice is real. Act the part of a real family, but don't go around having sex and relations with others; kids aren't stupid, they'll figure things out in jig-time.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Ursula said:


> Also, I don't recall reading that children "cheer on" their parents throughout the divorce process, and I'd be surprised if that were the case. I would think that even in the cruddiest of circumstances, children would be hit hard by divorce. However, going from my own personal experiences, my parent's relationship (as well as other factors in theirs and my relationship) really played mind games and effed up all of the romantic relationships that would be in my future. It wasn't until after a failed marriage and then therapy that I started seeing the "why". I have no idea how my parents have made it through 50+ years of marriage. 🤷‍♀️
> 
> ETA: in regards to your last comment about not caring who the other is screwing, I would think that would be a bad idea, period. If you're going to stay together for the sake of the kids, then make sure that the sacrifice is real. Act the part of a real family, but don't go around having sex and relations with others; kids aren't stupid, they'll figure things out in jig-time.


Perhaps I wasn't too clear with my previous comment....

When I say kids are "selfish", its not a bad thing...That's the way it should be...Its like the puppy, that wants to nurse all the time, he doesn't care that momma is all knackered out...and while she is sleeping they are jumping on top of her and biting her ears...Its no different for kids...They want and mostly think about only what is good for them...The ability to care about their parents well being doesn't come until much later in life...Thats why I think the whole narrative about kids caring about why their father isn't able to bang mom, or she wont go down on him and that's what he wants...Nor do they care if their parents work themselves into the ground, if it means they get all the things that make them happy, they are all good..


Another thing to consider.....Some marriages, while bad from a compatibility standpoint, perhaps they are in a weird way balancing each other out on a daily basis, from a codependency standpoint...Take that away by blowing it all up and now neither one is worth a crap as a parent....This is probably more common, than not...

At the end of the day, once kids come around, you can't IMO, completely dismiss these aspects and just bolt because you are unhappy... I mean, you can, of course, but there will likely be a lot of collateral damage...and if you really care about your kids, it's a very tough decision...


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

hamadryad said:


> And all this talk of 17 sexless years? If they don't care about the marriage anymore, why should they care who either one is effing?? How much is there to lose at that point??


Perhaps the OP will return to let us know if he and his wife are amenable to opening up their marriage. I don't believe he specified or addressed the issue of sex outside the marriage.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

hamadryad said:


> Bottom line is, no one can convince me that if two people are "done" with their marriage, from a romantic/sexual sense, aren't fighting, and are willing to agree to cohabitate, then that would be a worse scenario than blowing it all up and divorcing...


That's fine. No one is here to convince you, or OP of anything. Just like no one can convince me to stay in a dead marriage, children or no children. No way no how. But I'm not the one with the problem, neither are you, OP is, and we all are giving him our point of view. He will take what he feels goes with him, the rest he will ignore.


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## DLC (Sep 19, 2021)

Prodigal said:


> Your response to me indicates just how angry you are. Nowhere did I say you should "screw up" your children or your finances. If you wish to remain in denial about your situation, that is fine. I was hoping a thoughtful narrative could ensue about a serious situation. Nowhere did I indicate you should be angry or resentful. I was merely asking if you had thought about the financial consequences of staying in the marriage and the lack of sex for many years.
> 
> Sadly, it appears you cannot or will not respond with anything other than thinly masked anger. Best of luck living in a sexless, loveless marriage.


well, there is no denying passive aggressive, anger, hiding behind laugher are all here, but only (or mostly) when I have to deal with the BS from my wife. But I genuinely not feel angry or resentful all the other times. And I do make fun of everything, especially jokes on myself even in front of my friends and kids all the times. And I do have a clear sense of what’s appreciate or what not depends in front of the young ones. So that’s that.

I guess there’s a personality traits as well as I don’t see a way other than that.

so when I type with all the emoji’s and LOL , those are jokes on me. Not like they are for being passive aggressive in my response.

having said that, to me, the jokes are “my way out” in a situation where there won’t be any improvement in the marriage (communication door closed), and divorce is not an option.

So I don’t know. I can either entertain myself with jokes, or stare at a closed door and cry while there is no one on the other side. I choose the first option.

man, let me tell you I have a lot places where I want to put my 😅 but I refrain from doing that to make it sounds more serious.


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## DLC (Sep 19, 2021)

Prodigal said:


> Perhaps the OP will return to let us know if he and his wife are amenable to opening up their marriage. I don't believe he specified or addressed the issue of sex outside the marriage.


open marriage is a no go on my side. And talk about screwing up the kids with divorce. I think I would be worse when the kids found out daddy mommy has some on the side.

and no, we didn’t have open marriage discussion.


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## DLC (Sep 19, 2021)

Rob_1 said:


> That's fine. No one is here to convince you, or OP of anything. Just like no one can convince me to stay in a dead marriage, children or no children. No way no how. But I'm not the one with the problem, neither are you, OP is, and we all are giving him our point of view. He will take what he feels goes with him, the rest he will ignore.


if I say I have no problem, would that be considered in denial? Haha. Just kidding.

I do read all comments and reflect on my situation. Not that I can act on them or anything. But that helps my thinking process.


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## DLC (Sep 19, 2021)

hamadryad said:


> Additionally, this thinking that divorced people are all of a sudden happy as clams is nonsense as well...Most of the divorced people I know are also the most miserable...Some of them barely find anyone else to date or match up with either..
> 
> Bottom line is, no one can convince me that if two people are "done" with their marriage, from a romantic/sexual sense, aren't fighting, and are willing to agree to cohabitate, then that would be a worse scenario than blowing it all up and divorcing.


I am kinda in line with this.

if you tell me right after the peaceful divorce, both of us will find someone right away, and build two happy homes for the kids, everybody lives happily there after … separately. Then I would say, heck yeah, let’s do it yesterday! I can even live without find someone if you can guarantee a peaceful and agreeable divorce, and devoted single parent on one or both sides.

but the reality is a divorce might turn a known evil into a monster. That’s a big risk that I probably can’t afford to take.

money is one thing. The more important thing to me is parenting, or the lack there of. If I only get 50% of the time, I can be the best dad in the world and I only get 3.5 days, the other 3.5 days will be free for all. If the family is intact, I get 7 days to be a decent dad.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Rob_1 said:


> Yes, what he says is correct. But, there's always a but; does OP knows for sure that in a few years his wife or him, or both will be able to keep the harmony and not go for the throat at each other? 17 years is a long time. There's people that had swindle it, but for the big majority it was/is a disaster where everyone pays the price. And *what about both of their life's when they're old trying to start anew at that age?*


Too bad. It's not the kids fault that their parents married the wrong people. I say that as a first time married, second wife and stepmum.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

OP before you make a decision you need to read the book 'Primal Loss' by Leila Miller. It's the stories of children of divorce, who are now adults. Take the religious bs out of it, just read the stories, every one of them will break your heart.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

People can say that money isn't everything, but at the end of the day, it's usually a really big factor in these cases,,,

Most people, unless very wealthy, are working pretty hard to maintain one household...I haven't bought a primary home in a long time and mine's been paid off for a while now, but I can't imagine how people do it, with mortgages, taxes, car payments, etc... Around here you need a million for a decent home..and it's not much different in a lot of other places, especially now in this inflated market..

So now you split, you want to keep the house for the kids and keep them in the school system, etc, so now the guy usually leaves, the ex/w stays in the primary home, and not only does the guy have to pay child support, but how and where is the money coming from for a house(or usually a teeny apartment) so that he can have a roof over his head?

If there is some way to get them out of HS, you wouldn't likely have the problem of the schools and friends, etc, and child support is unlikely as well...Parental involvement is critical when they are younger, not so much when they start hitting late teens so that is another thing to consider.. So at least there are some options that aren't nearly as daunting, rather than what you had before as mentioned...

At the end of the day, it would be nice if couples that didn't work out acted maturely and pragmatically in these situations,.....but they rarely do...too much emotion involved, that clouds what is common sense..


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I believe that, if husband and wife don't argue and are civil to each other, then the kids will be better off with both parents. It is true: kids are selfish and they don't want their situation changing for the worse. And there is also the flip side: they will realise their parents stayed together for them, not to disrupt their life, because they love them. It shows integrity and lack of selfishness and surely that's a positive thing. But 17 years? I would understand 5, but 17 would be very challenging to me.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

And in 17 years he is going to say, "I'm too old to have to split everything with her, I have to stay"

🤣-- emoji keeping with the trend of this thread


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

My parents stayed together because of the kids. 

The biggest lesson I got from their decision is, "Do not stay for the kids!!!!" 

My mom was a stay at home mom, she didn't work so she couldn't divorce. My dad cared too much about his financial situation it wasn't a choice to split and lose what he had. 

We were stuck in the middle. They never said they stayed because of us, but it was very clear they had sacrificed themselves to provide for us. They SACRIFICED their happiness for US! 

I just feel sad for both of them. They are in their 70's, they live in this big house, two of their 3 children live in different countries. Their only son lives in the same area, but they don't see each other that often. They only have one grandchild living close to them. They are lonely together because they don't have anything in common. It's heartbreaking. 

Their dynamics made my sister and I run for the hills! Literally. I had to learn how to have a healthy relationships by paying attention to my classmates' parents. When I was 7-8 I often wondered why aren't my parents loving towards each other? why aren't they hugging or kissing? Why are they together if they are not in love? As a teenager I spend all my summers at my grandma's, aunt's, or other family members homes because I didn't want to be around them. I guess I felt anger and resentment towards them for giving up their lives for us. I wish I could go back in time and tell them they didn't have to stay for the kids. Do you know how horrible is for a child to feel responsible for its parents unhappiness?

I understand my mom didn't have a job. She felt trapped. My dad couldn't lose what he had invested so far. I resent they didn't even try to start over or really try at their marriage. 

They didn't even try. That makes me mad. It makes me angry how they just gave up.... Because of us. 

Both sides of my family have had many divorces and second marriages. Some good, some bad. What I see in my cousins is they are very resilient. They are successful because they haven't give up. They are survivors of divorced parents, and they are happy. They have a good relationship with their parents. They understand why their parents got divorced. 

I can only be around both my parents for a few weeks at a time. It's very draining trying to understand their dysfunctional dynamics which are very different from mine in my marriage. 

Sorry about the lengthy post. I just wanted to give you my perspective as a child from a loveless, together for convenience marriage.

I don't recommend it to anybody.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

DLC said:


> I can either entertain myself with jokes, or stare at a closed door and cry while there is no one on the other side. I choose the first option.


I appreciate you coming back to respond to me. The thing is, it seems you come from the either-or perspective. What I mean is you feel you either have to be laughing all the time about the challenges you face or you have to dissolve into hysterical crying. There CAN be a balance.

Perhaps you use humor because you are afraid you will not be able to control other emotions you feel. It's okay to stare at a closed door - now and then. It's okay to cry - now and then. It's okay to poke fun at oneself - now and then. But don't you feel there needs to be a balance?


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

frusdil said:


> Too bad. It's not the kids fault that their parents married the wrong people. I say that as a first time married, second wife and stepmum.


We were six children, all six of us used to beg, and beg, and beg our mother to divorce our father, for everyone's sake. Thankfully, she eventually did. What a blessing 🙌 that was.

Still to this day, we all are living under some of the psychological effects of that marriage.

So, it wasn't our fault, but it was their for staying together for as long as they did.


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## A18S37K14H18 (Dec 14, 2021)

DLC said:


> And talk about screwing up the kids with divorce.


So many screw up their kids because they do NOT divorce.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

A18S37K14H18 said:


> So many screw up their kids because they do NOT divorce.


Read my above post about this. The psychological effects still lingers more so on some of us even after all these decades. I have a sister that had to have psychological help for a while all due to the effects of our parents marriage.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

pastasauce79 said:


> I don't recommend it to anybody.


I wouldn't recommend it either in that kind of scenario. Some marriages are a lot better and it's possible to raise children in a loving environment. But I do agree that these marriages are not that common.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

pastasauce79 said:


> My parents stayed together because of the kids.
> 
> The biggest lesson I got from their decision is, "Do not stay for the kids!!!!"
> 
> ...


It was not for the kids. That is just the excuse they used to make themselves feel better about their own selfishness. 

Your mom did not want to work and your dad did not want to give up half his crap. Plain and simple. 

Kind of like women that keep going back to abusive men...I stayed so the kids did not have a broken home. Really! Sometimes broken home is much better than the alternative. I would tell those kinds of women, if you want to keep going back and getting your ass beat, fine! Then you should loose your kids as an unfit mother.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

OP I feel like you still have plenty of avenues to exhaust before accepting this as the status quo.

I would like to echo the rare sentiment that was given earlier.

My parents divorced and I probably would have been better off if they had stayed together. It's hard to say. I lived my life. I love my life. If changing something in the past would change the now I'd never touch it.

That being said. at 15 I was working 60 hours a week and going to school so I could eat. My dad paid child support but it barely covered the cost of the house. My mom loved me and did what she could but life got exceedingly tough after their divorce. I think both children knew they weren't happy. I even suspected my dad was cheating on my mom. I even told her so. Spoiler alert: he was.

On the flip side. It has made me into a self sufficient ball buster cause I had not other choice.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

hamadryad said:


> Perhaps I wasn't too clear with my previous comment....
> 
> When I say kids are "selfish", its not a bad thing...That's the way it should be...Its like the puppy, that wants to nurse all the time, he doesn't care that momma is all knackered out...and while she is sleeping they are jumping on top of her and biting her ears...Its no different for kids...They want and mostly think about only what is good for them...The ability to care about their parents well being doesn't come until much later in life...Thats why I think the whole narrative about kids caring about why their father isn't able to bang mom, or she wont go down on him and that's what he wants...Nor do they care if their parents work themselves into the ground, if it means they get all the things that make them happy, they are all good..
> 
> ...


Oh, I get it and not once did I say that it would be an easy decision, either way. I divorced and it was a hard decision, but if we had had kids, I'm sure the decision would have been even tougher to make. However, sometimes a marriage cannot be saved, and the relationship cannot be survived through. OP and his wife are roommates, barely speak, and it's obvious from his posts that the seething rage is bubbling just below the surface. Their kids can pick up on that. Maybe not the baby, but he/she will in time too. And, they'll grow up to think that's normal, and will in turn have similar relationships and/or marriages. And thus the cycle of toxicity begins. That sort of thing doesn't bother some parents. It didn't bother mine and still doesn't. They really couldn't care less how much they've effed up their kids, and that as middle age adults, we're both still affected. That's fantastic for them and other parents like that, but for the kids it's a living hell. It's still not an easy decision either way though. Keep your kids in the hell of their parent's troubled marriage, or possibly damage them by divorcing. Really, neither option is great, and no one is going to win with whatever the OP decides. This here is a lose-lose situation all around.


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## DLC (Sep 19, 2021)

Prodigal said:


> I appreciate you coming back to respond to me. The thing is, it seems you come from the either-or perspective. What I mean is you feel you either have to be laughing all the time about the challenges you face or you have to dissolve into hysterical crying. There CAN be a balance.
> 
> Perhaps you use humor because you are afraid you will not be able to control other emotions you feel. It's okay to stare at a closed door - now and then. It's okay to cry - now and then. It's okay to poke fun at oneself - now and then. But don't you feel there needs to be a balance?


I felt I already buried the other side out oself preservation.

I agree that there should be a healthy emotional balance. With my situation, I don’t know if I can get to that point any time soon.


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## uwe.blab (May 2, 2019)

frusdil said:


> OP before you make a decision you need to read the book 'Primal Loss' by Leila Miller. It's the stories of children of divorce, who are now adults. Take the religious bs out of it, just read the stories, every one of them will break your heart.


Are there any books about kids whose parents hated each other but DIDN'T divorce? Probably some trauma there too I would guess.


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