# When is Online Flirting Cheating?



## Cheese (Sep 6, 2012)

My husband and I have only been married for a year, and it has been a very rough one. About eight months ago he became involved again in being an admin for a chat site he used to help run about 6 years ago before we met. At first I didn't mind since I knew it was something that he enjoyed and he was off work, so it gave him something to do. I began to notice that he was talking to one particular woman a LOT...but he always told me it was just about site stuff since this other woman is an admin as well that he knew from before and she was still there. He got to the point where all he did was sit on this site talking to her as well as a few others. My husband is a very jealous man, he tells me it's because he's been cheated on before when he was working out of town. If I have any messenger programs going he starts to get paranoid and watching my computer. If he knows I'm online and sees a message pop up, he gets annoyed and has to know who it is. Because of how he feels about me talking to male friends online, I assumed he would be appropriate with his conversations to these other women. He went away for work for a month and when he came back, his drinking started back up again. He is an alcoholic who had been sober for a few months...and then figured he could have 'just one'. The drinking got very bad, and I know his mind tends to head to the sexual side when he's drunk...so I started to worry about what he was talking to this other woman about...so I looked at his MSN history (he talks to her on MSN most times instead of in the site). I was floored! He was telling her how he'd had a thing for her years ago but never thought he had a chance, how great he thought she was and still is, how cute she is...and now they had a second chance to flirt. She even mentioned that she hopes his wife doesn't mind him flirting and he assured her that she (I) doesn't. A lot of the conversations are about site stuff...but there is a lot of stuff in between. He told her about intimate things about me. He hinted that she should webcam before she gets dressed, told her that he hopes she dreams of him. I confronted him about it and he apologized for giving the intimate details, but doesn't think anything is wrong with him flirting with her since she lives in Australia and we live in Canada. I told him that it still bothered me...that I would never talk to another man that way no matter where he was and I didn't think it appropriate that he was talking to women that way. I hoped after that conversation he would have stopped. We almost broke up during the next few weeks because of his drinking and anger issues while he drinks. Since June he has stopped drinking and is really making an effort in that part. He has stopped chatting with her when I am in the living room...he used to sit there for hours while I was watching tv or something. He was off work for three months, and a month into that he started setting his alarm to get up at 4:15 am to "keep himself used to getting up early for when he started back to work". In my heart I knew that it was really so he could go and chat with her since it was evening there. Around the same time he started bringing me breakfast in bed every morning I had to work...not sure if it was because he felt guilty or to make sure I stayed upstairs.

The other day I decided to look at the MSN history again because I wanted to KNOW that he wasn't flirting with her anymore now that he's stopped drinking. I wasn't happy with what I saw...I was very hurt. He sends her a (K) and ({) every morning, which I view as flirting. She was also asking him if he ever thought she would find someone to love her and how lucky he was for having his wife. He told her of course she would, how great of a person she is...how if he had the chance he would be with her. They talked about how much their morning chats mean to each other. He told her that he missed chatting with her while she had been on vacation and that his day just doesn't go right if he doesn't start it by talking to her first. He's always concerned about her health, whether or not she's eating and sleeping well. Oh...did I mention she is planning on moving to Canada? Looking at a city about 12 hour drive from here.

There was also a conversation he was having with a different woman on a day that his drinking and our fighting was very bad. This woman he used to work with and lives in the sames city as us. He was talking to her about how he'd tried to f*&$ her before but she wouldn't take him up on it. He offered to 'fix her' (his code for giving an orgasm to another person) anytime she needed and that his wife was ok with it...and then told her what to imagine he was doing to her until she made it back to town. That was in June and they haven't talked since. Yes I checked his phone too on that one 

I'm at a loss as to what to do about this. Is he right that the flirting is harmless since she is in Australia and us in Canada? He flirts occasionally to one in England too (plus two phone calls here that cost me $100). Am I blowing this other relationship out of proportion? It really bothered me to hear him say out loud (in type) about how important their morning chats are to him and his day just doesn't go right if it doesn't start with her. He's been back to work now for a week. In the morning he talks to her before going to work...no longer does he come to kiss me good-bye (he doesn't want to wake me ) and there has only been a few mornings that there was a text waiting for me to wish me a good morning and tell me he loves me. When he was working before, I always woke up to a coffee beside me, a kiss goodbye, and a text.

I told him in June that I view his relationship with her as an emotional affair and that it really bothered me. He said it was not an affair at all...yet there are more and more comments about how much their conversations mean to them...and this time he's sober.


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

Cheating is doing talking or typing something you would not want your spouse to see, read or hear. 

This flirting bothers you and it sounds like his drinking does as well. You need to talk this our and soon. I would suggest that you see a MC. If he refuses to go, just go yourself. He will joing you at some point.


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## wiigirl (Jun 14, 2012)

mahike said:


> Cheating is doing talking or typing something you would not want your spouse to see, read or hear.
> 
> This flirting bothers you and it sounds like his drinking does as well. You need to talk this our and soon. I would suggest that you see a MC. If he refuses to go, just go yourself. He will joing you at some point.


:iagree:








_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cheese (Sep 6, 2012)

mahike said:


> Cheating is doing talking or typing something you would not want your spouse to see, read or hear.
> 
> This flirting bothers you and it sounds like his drinking does as well. You need to talk this our and soon. I would suggest that you see a MC. If he refuses to go, just go yourself. He will joing you at some point.


I would love to talk it out...but he refuses to talk about anything because he feels that I am putting all the blame on him and he can do nothing right...etc. He will not go to a MC, he hates counseling because he was forced to go about his drinking before as well as his anger issues.

:S
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sick. (Jul 18, 2012)

How do you explain to someone who doesn't think it's wrong that it IS wrong? I went through the same thing just a few months ago. I found out my hubby was chatting with girls online. He told me it meant nothing, and it doesn't matter I don't have the right to know what gets him off. 
The thing that sucks, is that I felt like it was wrong, and then confronting him about it- he manipulated me into thinking it was totally normal. 
Don't let this man change your mind. It is wrong. He's hiding things from you. Trust is the foundation of a good marriage. 
As long as he is hurting you by talking to this woman, and hiding it, he is cheating. He needs to stop.

You should probably start considering the fact that he could be hiding other things from you as well. I hope you're smarter/more courageous than I am.


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## ajb3313 (Sep 5, 2012)

Um, yeah, that's cheating.

If you take a highlighter to your post, there are several key things that would constitute cheating by themselves. The part about giving another woman an orgasm? That is beyond inappropriate. But given all the details, it's pretty obviously a cheating scenario. 

You also mention sitting and watching TV while he plays on the computer, and while I understand that people enjoy playing on the computer, I think that if you're in a relationship and really want to make it work, you need to have limits for these things. Sitting on the computer "for hours" while you watch television is unhealthy for a lot of reasons, even beyond cheating. He can't sit with you and watch TV? 

It doesn't sound like he's willing to concede or relent, but you might want to try the tact of "we should spend more time together and less time with our heads buried into our keyboards."


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Personally I don't think anything is wrong with an occasional casual flirting,nothing serious.

But in your case clearly the intensity is building and they do this EVERY DAY!
Its almost as if he is hooked on this woman.

I think where I read in your post where he suggested she webcams before she gets dress?

Definitely cheating IMO.


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## Cheese (Sep 6, 2012)

That's how I feel too...but he likes to think that he does nothing wrong, yet hides it from me (or thinks he does) so I won't get upset. He doesnt spend much time on computer now when I'm up...more in the mornings while I'm still in bed. He also now makes excuses to her on why he can't talk to her in our evening/her morning. The common excuse is him and I are out at my friends place, him being dragged along. 

So I am right feeling like this is cheating, even though she lives on another continent...? He doesn't think it is, only if it was me talking to another man :/
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sick. (Jul 18, 2012)

Cheese said:


> That's how I feel too...but he likes to think that he does nothing wrong, yet hides it from me (or thinks he does) so I won't get upset. He doesnt spend much time on computer now when I'm up...more in the mornings while I'm still in bed. He also now makes excuses to her on why he can't talk to her in our evening/her morning. The common excuse is him and I are out at my friends place, him being dragged along.
> 
> So I am right feeling like this is cheating, even though she lives on another continent...? He doesn't think it is, only if it was me talking to another man :/
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He knows it's wrong. IF he didn't think it wasn't he wouldn't try to hide it. Just because it isn't physical doesn't mean that it hurts less. It hurts. And hurting your spouse is wrong. It's been going on for a long time and now they have become attached. That's not loyalty.


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## underwater2010 (Jun 27, 2012)

How about when one steps over the line from lol to don't come yet. Or Do you think we can meet up in Aug.? Or when they text and call each other all the time? Or when the meet up in real life for coffee?

It is all the same. If it makes you uncomfortable then it should matter to him. The fact that it doesn't says alot.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

underwater2010 said:


> It is all the same. If it makes you uncomfortable then it should matter to him. The fact that it doesn't says alot.


:iagree:

It says everything.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

Yes it is definitely cheating. He is NOT loving you, in spite of his marriage vows. That alone constitutes a breach of your marriage; to LOVE AND HONOR!!!!!

This is what broke up my marriage. After months of monitoring her, I have no evidence of a physical affair (by the way, WF is terrified of sex and is an abuse victim). But she is now into her third emotional affair in the space of a year, and it is most definitely, assuredly, positively, unquestionably a form of cheating and a grievious afront to you and a form of extreme disrespect and I dare say selfish and narcissistic.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Cheese said:


> how if he had the chance he would be with her.


Show him this quote and tell him to get the hell out.

You deserve better than an abusive cheating alcoholic.


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

WHy are you putting up with this?


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Cheese said:


> So I am right feeling like this is cheating, even though she lives on another continent...? He doesn't think it is, only if it was me talking to another man :/


Ok, so it's ok FOR HIM, because he's doing it and not you? It's ok FOR HIM, because she lives thousands of miles away? So, what if she moves to Canada? Or the US? Is it still ok FOR HIM because they're "just friends"? But it's not ok FOR YOU because he was cheated on during a previous relationship?

From what you posted originally, he IS cheating...emotional affair. He has told this woman that he'd be with her if he could! He has an emotional connection with this woman. No, it is NOT ok for him to be talking to her, unless you are opening your marriage. He doesn't see it as wrong because he doesn't WANT to see it. Have you placed him in the same scenario, but roles reversed? Instead of him and the OW, how would he feel if you were having the exact same conversation with another man?

Ordinarily, I would say casual banter/flirting would be ok. But, due to my OWN experience, I don't ok flirting (with anyone outside the marriage) in my own marriage. In your case, his "flirting" is way over the line. It is HIGHLY inappropriate, to say the very least! He is cheating...emotionally cheating. And the only way he will stop with this woman is if he has no further contact with her.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Cheese said:


> That's how I feel too...but he likes to think that he does nothing wrong, yet hides it from me (or thinks he does) so I won't get upset. He doesnt spend much time on computer now when I'm up...more in the mornings while I'm still in bed. He also now makes excuses to her on why he can't talk to her in our evening/her morning. The common excuse is him and I are out at my friends place, him being dragged along.
> 
> *So I am right feeling like this is cheating, even though she lives on another continent...? He doesn't think it is, only if it was me talking to another man :/*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Soooooo,
Are you going to wait until you stumble upon one secret accounts with pictures of her mbing and sex chat between them?

You are feeling that way because you know exactly what is going on.
I'm sure he's exhibiting other strange behavioural patterns which you haven't mentioned here. 
Take note of the sex frequency between both of you. 
Take note of his attitude during sex.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

To answer the OPs question, online flirting is always cheating; someone else asked how to get them to realize that when they don't think there's anything wrong with it...you can't. Leave them. Otherwise prepare for a lifetime of sh!t like this.


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## Cheese (Sep 6, 2012)

sick. said:


> How do you explain to someone who doesn't think it's wrong that it IS wrong?


I would love to know the answer to that. When he said there was no problem with it because she didn't even live in the same country I told him that it bothers ME and he wouldn't like me talking to another man that way, so he shouldn't be talking to her like that. He wouldn't listen, obviously, and was just pissed off because I'd gone onto his computer (and he'd been caught).


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## Cheese (Sep 6, 2012)

I believe so too...and feel much better knowing that I am not the only one who views it as cheating. I know he knows it's wrong...otherwise he wouldn't care if I was talking to other men.

I'm not sure what to do. I am barely sleeping because I can't stop my brain from thinking. I'm exhausted. He won't talk about it, so I thought of writing him a letter explaining how I feel...knowing he'll at least read that. I also thought about going onto a different chat site to make friends so that I can say 'well if you are doing it, then so can I'...but I don't think two wrongs make a right. I've also thought about messaging this other woman saying 'this is *****'s wife, and YES! I mind very much the relationship you have with MY HUSBAND!!'


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Do message the other woman. 

If you write him a letter make it simple: I can't stay married to a man who cheats, so I'm giving you a chance here - stop all contact with other women, or I'll make plans to divide our assets.


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## Cheese (Sep 6, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> Take note of the sex frequency between both of you.


Gone from once or twice a week to once or twice a month.


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## Cheese (Sep 6, 2012)

turnera said:


> Do message the other woman.


What if all she does is message him about it? He would lose his sh&t if he knew I did that...that's the only thing that has kept me from doing it.


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## Cheese (Sep 6, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> In your case, his "flirting" is way over the line. It is HIGHLY inappropriate, to say the very least! He is cheating...emotionally cheating. And the only way he will stop with this woman is if he has no further contact with her.


I don't think he would ever stop contact with her since they are both senior admins on this chat site.

I am really pissed off with him about the whole situation...but I also love him very much..sometimes I wish I didn't, then it would be easier to give him the ultimatum if I wasn't worried he'd choose the wrong side. I'm at the end of my rope tho...to the point where enough is enough.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

When it is flirting.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Cheese said:


> What if all she does is message him about it? He would lose his sh&t if he knew I did that...that's the only thing that has kept me from doing it.


Really, at this point, does it matter what he thinks about it? He knows it's wrong. You know it's wrong. He is ignoring how YOU feel about it because he WANTS to do this. He would be angry if you were talking to a man. He would say something to the man, whether you liked it or not, wouldn't he? 

Don't let his anger or disapproval stop you from stopping HIM. If the OW does, in fact, just message him about it, and he gets pissed at you, what will it matter, really? Would you rather just sit back and watch him further his relationship with this woman? Would you rather sit back and wait for her to move to Canada so there is a greater chance that they will turn it to physical? Again I ask, why does it matter what HE wants at this point?


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Cheese said:


> I don't think he would ever stop contact with her since they are both senior admins on this chat site.
> 
> I am really pissed off with him about the whole situation...but I also love him very much..sometimes I wish I didn't, then it would be easier to give him the ultimatum if I wasn't worried he'd choose the wrong side. I'm at the end of my rope tho...to the point where enough is enough.


And that is when you say that either the site (and the OW) goes, or he's out. He knows how it feels to be cheated on, and he is now doing it to YOU. You need to give him CONSEQUENCES for his actions.


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## sick. (Jul 18, 2012)

Okay the only thing I can suggest so far is marriage counseling... Maybe the counselor will help him see that it's wrong, I don't know. But I found out my H was talking to women online, and soon after learned that was the least of my worries. He was talking to his ex girlfriend, too, and I think he still is. I hate the internet.... I hate smart phones, I hate computers. 
I'm so sorry you're going through this. I don't mean to dump my problems onto you, but it feels good that I'm not alone. 
This may take some time. But you should encourage him that it is wrong, and show him how it's wrong. Find something online and print it out, I don't know what it will take. But he needs to stop!

Do you have children together?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Cheese said:


> What if all she does is message him about it? He would lose his sh&t if he knew I did that...that's the only thing that has kept me from doing it.


 Good! LET him get mad. How do you expect a cheater to want to stop cheating unless he realizes he can no longer eat cake?

YOU have to be the strong one here, cheese. "H, I will NOT participate in a 3-way marriage. You choose me, or I'm out."


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Cheese said:


> I don't think he would ever stop contact with her since they are both senior admins on this chat site.


He would if he really wants to be married to you, and you refuse to stay married to him if he ever contacts her again.

YOU have the power here, Cheese.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

I think online flirting is just like in person flirting. It's not cheating but I don't think it's appropriate. The reason is that flirting leads to emotional connection and fantasy. It can lead to EA and PA.

I consider sexy photos, and cyber sex however to be more than harmless flirting. These are close to infidelity. For me anything my wife would be hurt over is not allowed and just a tiny bit of online flirting would cause that so I avoid it.


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## Kasler (Jul 20, 2012)

Its cheating, do something about it or put up with it. 

In his mind he thinks what hes doing is no big deal. You do nothing about it so that idea is only cemented, therefore enabled. 

Theres no quick stop way to get him to realize hes in an EA

Either you do something other than talk, or its going to continue, period.


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## Cheese (Sep 6, 2012)

Kasler said:


> Its cheating, do something about it or put up with it.
> 
> In his mind he thinks what hes doing is no big deal. You do nothing about it so that idea is only cemented, therefore enabled.
> 
> ...


I know, really I do. I am not a confrontational person and I'm just worried about the fight it will start which usually results in me bawling like an idiot. I prefer to talk about things before they build into something unmanagable, but I'm scared of his reaction. That's why normally if I'm upset about something, I write a letter. That way he can read it without me crying in front of him. I've also not decided if I should write the OW and tell her that I do mind their conversations, very much.

I watched a movie the other night that nailed it..."It's not the knowing that is the hard part...the hard part is saying it out loud."


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## GotMeWonderingNow (May 31, 2012)

Cheese said:


> He was telling her how he'd had a thing for her years ago but never thought he had a chance, how great he thought she was and still is, how cute she is...and now they had a second chance to flirt.


Crossing the line.



Cheese said:


> He told her about intimate things about me.


Crossing the line.



Cheese said:


> He hinted that she should webcam before she gets dressed, told her that he hopes she dreams of him.


Crossing the line.



Cheese said:


> but doesn't think anything is wrong with him flirting with her since she lives in Australia and we live in Canada.


I live in Australia and my wife's EA OM lives in the USA. It doesn't matter where they live. It could be a remote outpost on Mars. One ride on a plane and either person can be standing right in front of the other.



Cheese said:


> He sends her a (K) and ({) every morning,


Crossing the line.



Cheese said:


> how if he had the chance he would be with her. They talked about how much their morning chats mean to each other. He told her that he missed chatting with her while she had been on vacation and that his day just doesn't go right if he doesn't start it by talking to her first. He's always concerned about her health, whether or not she's eating and sleeping well.


Crossing the line.



Cheese said:


> He was talking to her about how he'd tried to f*&$ her before but she wouldn't take him up on it. He offered to 'fix her' (his code for giving an orgasm to another person) anytime she needed and that his wife was ok with it...and then told her what to imagine he was doing to her until she made it back to town.


Crossing the line.



Cheese said:


> Is he right that the flirting is harmless since she is in Australia and us in Canada?


He's dead set WRONG.



Cheese said:


> Am I blowing this other relationship out of proportion?


Not in the slightest.



Cheese said:


> I told him in June that I view his relationship with her as an emotional affair and that it really bothered me. He said it was not an affair at all...


Exactly what my wife said and still says, but she went NC and stayed that way. I didn't argue semantics with her after that.

Make no mistake; this behavior by your husband is completely inappropriate for a married man and MUST STOP.


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## Cheese (Sep 6, 2012)

GotMeWonderingNow said:


> Crossing the line.
> 
> 
> Crossing the line.
> ...



Thank you so much for that...especially coming from a man...tells me that I'm not just being 'female' and reading more into it than what's there. The distance between my H and his EA (when I called his relationship with her an affair he got very defensive saying there was no such thing) and your W and hers is very close. He has always made it out like it didn't matter cause it wasn't like she was within driving distance.

He is now down to talking to her for 2 1/2 hours in our morning and until I get home in the evening if I'm still at work (few times a week) after she gets up in her morning...every day. That is down from four hours in our morning and up to 3-6 hours more in our evening...up to 4 hours of that with me in room with his back to me...EVERY day. Him getting upset because I have no right to have an issue with it.

Now...how to approach a very stubborn man who has some severe anger issues (when drinking but feels he has the right to drink and lose temper if he's pissed off/stressed...but trying to quit)who doesn't think he's doing anything wrong, angry at me for suggesting it...and save my marriage. Sometimes I do wonder if it's with saving, but I remember how good it was between us not long ago (8 months) and I don't give up easily.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

You cannot convince him to change. You can show him the consequences if he keeps this up. You can give him an ultimatum --- your affair partner or your wife, not both.


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## GotMeWonderingNow (May 31, 2012)

Cheese said:


> Thank you so much for that...especially coming from a man...tells me that I'm not just being 'female' and reading more into it than what's there.


Definitely not reading more into it. There is a thread by Elly73 (I think that's right) entitled something like "Husband mentoring a young woman...". You should read that to see what is considered an emotional affair. It can be surprisingly little and they can escalate quickly.



Cheese said:


> The distance between my H and his EA (when I called his relationship with her an affair he got very defensive saying there was no such thing) and your W and hers is very close. He has always made it out like it didn't matter cause it wasn't like she was within driving distance.


My wife still thinks her behavior was "just comments on FB", but when some strange guy that has told my wife certain explicit things he would like to do to her (always in a joking like manner, but still) decides he would like to come to Australia to meet my wife for coffee and my wife "likes" the comment, I tend to conclude that it was more than just comments.



Cheese said:


> He is now down to talking to her for 2 1/2 hours in our morning and until I get home in the evening if I'm still at work (few times a week) after she gets up in her morning...every day. That is down from four hours in our morning and up to 3-6 hours more in our evening...up to 4 hours of that with me in room with his back to me...EVERY day. Him getting upset because I have no right to have an issue with it.


You have every right to have an issue with it. I understand what you are saying though; you are communicating your husband's point of view. As I mentioned, my wife still won't admit that what she was in was an emotional affair, although she does now (after a long road) admit that she was flirting, that it made her feel good and that it was wrong. One of the ways I seemed to get through to her (other than taking a very hard line that if she continued we were done) was putting it to her whether she would be fine if it was me chatting with a strange woman on FB and this woman was telling me the kinds of things she'd like to do to me. She was quick to admit that she wouldn't like it one bit. It seems pretty clear from your previous posts that your husband would not like it if you were the one chatting to another man. The boundaries in marriage have to be the SAME for both parties.



Cheese said:


> Now...how to approach a very stubborn man who has some severe anger issues (when drinking but feels he has the right to drink and lose temper if he's pissed off/stressed...but trying to quit)who doesn't think he's doing anything wrong, angry at me for suggesting it...and save my marriage. Sometimes I do wonder if it's with saving, but I remember how good it was between us not long ago (8 months) and I don't give up easily.


Unfortunately I can't provide much advice how to deal with an angry guy... except to say don't confront him if he has been drinking. If at any time he is violent with you, you seriously need to consider a possible future without him. That said, wait to see what some of the other more experienced posters here on TAM have to say.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I don't remember if it was on this forum, but a couple years ago a woman started a 'friendship' with a man in Australia. Just friends, of course. Fast forward 6 months and she LEFT HER KIDS AND HUSBAND to travel across the world to meet this 'friend' - she simply couldn't go on until she met him in person to find out if it was 'real.' She broke her children's hearts.

Another woman LEFT HER KIDS AND HUSBAND to drive across America to meet up with an online friend - in the family's ONLY CAR! She left her entire family without transportation! Because she just 'had to see if it was real' with this 30-something man with a part time job living in his mom's basement.

First, you HAVE to confront this before it comes to that. And it will.

Second, you HAVE to be willing to walk away because he's already addicted, and will not just give up his drug just because he wants to please you. His need for his fix is now more powerful than pleasing you. They only chance you have now is telling him her or me. And there is NO ARGUING over whether it's a real affair, ok? YOU KNOW IT IS and that's all that matters. If you were doing something that broke your husband's heart, but you didn't have to have to survive, and he told you he couldn't stay married to you if you kept doing it, would you keep doing it? Of course not. No different.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

And you may want to consider if you want to be married to an alcoholic; his drinking will only get worse, not better. Unless you make another ultimatum.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Cheese said:


> What if all she does is message him about it? He would lose his sh&t if he knew I did that...that's the only thing that has kept me from doing it.


So what? Why don't you lose YOUR sh!t on him because of this? I can't stand when these arseholes try to turn the tables when they've been CAUGHT.  Seriously. You can't make empty threats; tell him how it's going to be, and follow through.


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## Cheese (Sep 6, 2012)

I have given him an ultimatum over the drinking...he knows how bad that is for him and for us and he really is trying. I have tried to be strong to help him through it and it's been a long road...but after the really bad that built up until June, he seems to be really trying. That last day in June I was going to drop him off at his mothers after I'd finished work.

I have asked him how he would feel if I talked to another man the same way as he talks to her how would he feel, and that I know that he would never put up with it. He just got pissed off with me and said it was all about site admin stuff and that sometimes he would help these other women with their problems. 

Thankfully this woman does not have a family, no do the others he occasionally flirts with. At the same time, maybe if she wasn't a single woman, who tells my H how she wishes she could find someone for her...maybe she wouldn't need him to tell her how great and attractive she is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cheese (Sep 6, 2012)

CandieGirl said:


> So what? Why don't you lose YOUR sh!t on him because of this? I can't stand when these arseholes try to turn the tables when they've been CAUGHT.  Seriously. You can't make empty threats; tell him how it's going to be, and follow through.


I'm not a lose my sh$t kind of girl...I'm the peace maker. It's hard for me, I grew up being taught to turn the other cheek and treat others the way you would want to be treated. In other words, I was taught to take a hell of an emotional beating and still give love back. My husband has a very bad and very quick temper, so I guess im just worried about setting that off. I have to be at the end of my rope...and that is where I am now. Especially after reading so many other people confirm that I have the right to be upset.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Well, someone else may have or will suggest the 180 to you; read up on that here and maybe that's your best bet for now, if you're the peacemaking type. 

Are you afraid of him? I mean, afraid he will harm you? Because if so, then that's a whole other story...


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## Cheese (Sep 6, 2012)

turnera said:


> Another woman LEFT HER KIDS AND HUSBAND to drive across America to meet up with an online friend - in the family's ONLY CAR! She left her entire family without transportation! Because she just 'had to see if it was real' with this 30-something man with a part time job living in his mom's basement.


He had been off work for three months...she thinks he owns his own company but had to fire one of his employees, and is now having to go into work to replace that person until he finds a new one *insert eyeroll here*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ArmyofJuan (Dec 29, 2010)

I hate to say it but I’ve been in this position before (not as bad but close). I minimized it and was in denial that I was doing anything wrong. I (and your H) is/was addicted to the attention because it inflates your ego. 

I would ask him questions. Ask him if you can see all his messages and if not, ask him why. Ask him if its appropriate for a married man to talk to other women the way he does. Try to get him to see his situation from an outside perspective, as if it was someone else doing this.

Then drop the hammer.

My W found it so disrespectful (and it was) that she immediate talked about separation/divorce. I thought she was going way overboard and I got angry about it but she wouldn’t budge. After a few days I decided it wasn’t worth losing my M over and went NC with everyone. I told myself if it wasn’t as big a deal as I was telling everyone then I should be able to stop. I wasn’t happy about it at first but after a while I started to understand how wrong I was. 

The mistake my W made was trying to make the M better when that wasn’t the problem. It ended up making her look needy and I pulled back some. About 2 years later she had an A and she used the resentment she built up from me to help justify it. She should have continued to hold me accountable instead of kissing my butt. I become complacent thinking she would never leave me after that so I didn't put any effort into the M.

Your H is on a slippery slope that if isn’t stopped will become a full blown affair. You need to blow this up like my W did to get this to stop and let him know he will lose everything if he doesn’t. Just because its not a big deal to him doesn't mean its not a big deal to you and you don't have to tolerate it.


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## Cheese (Sep 6, 2012)

CandieGirl said:


> Well, someone else may have or will suggest the 180 to you; read up on that here and maybe that's your best bet for now, if you're the peacemaking type.
> 
> Are you afraid of him? I mean, afraid he will harm you? Because if so, then that's a whole other story...


When he's drinking his temper goes through the roof at the drop of a hat...he screams and yells at me, calling me names and telling me how stupid I am, and has pushed me a few times. We have talked about it and he is really making an effort to give up drinking because he knows he's not a nice person when he is. He knows I have helped him as much as I can and will not stay if it starts up again. 

I know that is part of the reason why I haven't brought up a conversation about his EA...I don't want him to use getting pissed off over that as an excuse to rationalize his going to the liquor store.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

> When is Online Flirting Cheating?


- When it has to be kept hidden from the partner;
- When intimate details are exposed in a way to make the partner look bad to an opposite sex "friend";
- When there is a definite line of progression towards charming each other:
- When sexual fantasies are mentioned in a way that is understood that they are to be set in motion with a person other than the partner;
- When the flirting happens in a planned consistent way
- And finally, when the relationship boundaries are not respected, even if only emotionally.


I think i gave an answer. Although i'm pretty sure i've forgot some variants that we can consider not proper for people in relationships.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

You are in an abusive relationship; don't let his drinking be the excuse for you to put up with it! "He doesn't really mean it, it's the booze.". Knowing this, the EA should be the secondary reason for your leaving him; the abuse being primary. Just my 2 cents worth...


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## Cheese (Sep 6, 2012)

CandieGirl said:


> You are in an abusive relationship; don't let his drinking be the excuse for you to put up with it! "He doesn't really mean it, it's the booze.". Knowing this, the EA should be the secondary reason for your leaving him; the abuse being primary. Just my 2 cents worth...


I have been trying to be supportive of him and help him quit. I've always been the person to put everyone else's needs before my own and I truly do love him. It is funny though how you can love someone so much, but not like them sometimes.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Cheese, was one of your parents an alcoholic?



Cheese said:


> I have given him an ultimatum over the drinking...he knows how bad that is for him and for us and he really is trying. I have tried to be strong to help him through it and it's been a long road...


*



Helping is doing something for someone that they are not capable of doing themselves. Enabling is doing for someone things that they could, and should be doing themselves.

Simply, enabling creates a atmosphere in which the alcoholic can comfortably continue his unacceptable behavior.

Click to expand...





Enabling behavior is born out of our instinct for love. It's only natural to want to help someone we love, but when it comes to certain problems -- helping is like throwing a match on a pool of gas.

Click to expand...

*


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Cheese said:


> I'm not a lose my sh$t kind of girl...I'm the peace maker. It's hard for me, I grew up being taught to turn the other cheek and treat others the way you would want to be treated. In other words, I was taught to take a hell of an emotional beating and still give love back. My husband has a very bad and very quick temper, so I guess im just worried about setting that off. I have to be at the end of my rope...and that is where I am now. Especially after reading so many other people confirm that I have the right to be upset.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Cheese, how much reading and therapy have you done to overcome this dysfunction? All you did was bring your childhood FOO with you to seek out a loser you could rescue. That's what victims like you (and me) do - we rescue; we put them first; we put with a LOT of crap; and once in a while, we complain and say what about me? But it never occurs to us to LEAVE the abusive/dysfunctional relationship. 

You can't fix him. You can't change him. You can't turn him into a good guy who is not dysfunctional or abusive or an alcoholic. 

All you can do is get therapy and find out WHY you continue to be a Rescuer and HOW you can stop doing it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Cheese said:


> When he's drinking his temper goes through the roof at the drop of a hat...he screams and yells at me, calling me names and telling me how stupid I am, and has pushed me a few times. We have talked about it and he is really making an effort to give up drinking because he knows he's not a nice person when he is. He knows I have helped him as much as I can and will not stay if it starts up again.
> 
> I know that is part of the reason why I haven't brought up a conversation about his EA...I don't want him to use getting pissed off over that as an excuse to rationalize his going to the liquor store.


Straight out of Why Does He Do That? Inside The Minds Of Angry And Controlling Men (by Bancroft) - the bible on controlling, dysfunctional, or abusive men. Please read it this weekend. 

I'm not telling you to leave him. I'm telling you to educate yourself so that you understand what you're dealing with.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Cheese said:


> I have been trying to be supportive of him and help him quit.* I've always been the person to put everyone else's needs before my own* and I truly do love him. It is funny though how you can love someone so much, but not like them sometimes.


 Do you think that's a good thing?

It's not.


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## Kasler (Jul 20, 2012)

the only way you'll get him to quit is to give him the ultimatum, period. 

Also you can't help someone quit, no matter how much you think you can unless you're forcibly putting them in rehab, and even then that hardly works. A person will only quit when they TRULY WANT to quit.

You don't 'try' to quit, you do it or you don't. 

Anything less is just bullsh!tting, and this is coming from the experience of a several year smoker. 

Now I didn't chain smoke whole packs in a day, but I'd have a couple every now and then. My GF never liked it eventhough I took it outside so it wasn't too big a concern for me to quit. when she got pregnant, it was a whole nother story. 

She flat out told me to quit or shes moving out. I was thinking about saying I always do it outside or I only have a few, but she wouldn't even let me speak. Told me she would not live or raise a child in a smoking environment, that she would not tolerate our child having to smell the smoke on my clothes.

Then she just went upstairs and when she does that, its usually to get distance to prevent herself from exploding. 

I thought about it for a day and every though always came to GF and unborn child >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> coupla cigs a week. 

After that I had resolve, got a patch and was completely off cigs in two weeks. 

I quit because my GF meant so much more to me than cigarettes, and that she laid down the hammer on me to get me moving. Looking back, i'm not proud that it had to come to that, but I'm glad she did it. 

You can't nurture and coddle away an addiction, especially one as strong and easily attainable as the drink. 

for someone to kick something that strong, they're gonna have to stand to lose something much bigger. He may have several month stints of sobriety but as long as you continue to tolerate "just one drink won't hurt" hes not quitting anytime soon. I went back home with my family for labor day, saw my cousin. hes been sober 246 days. Sounds good right? Problem is its been 9 years and hes still counting days. 

No ultimatum = no change, period.

You may have been raised to be a 1960s wife, but thats not important. You may not be confrontative, you may not be assertive, theres a whole host of excuses that can be thrown out as to why you can't make any changes, it doesn't change the fact though, that if you don't do anything different, he won't do anything different either. 

So like I said, without any excuses as to why, how, when, can't

Yes or no question

Are you willing to make a radical change in yourself and in your life?

If the answer is yes, we can go from there. 

If the answer is no, then consign yourself to your reality. (I.E deal with it)

Those are your only options


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Cheese said:


> only been married for a year
> has been a very rough one
> he became involved again in being an admin for a chat site
> he was talking to one particular woman a LOT
> ...


 Would he stay married if you were doing this with two other men? Then why are you?


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## Lifeisnotsogood2 (Sep 1, 2012)

Cheese said:


> I would love to talk it out...but he refuses to talk about anything because he feels that I am putting all the blame on him and he can do nothing right...etc. He will not go to a MC, he hates counseling because he was forced to go about his drinking before as well as his anger issues.
> 
> :S
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's called an ultimatum.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Cheese, I know right now you're upset at us, because we're not talking about what you want to talk about - whether he's cheating.

There's a reason you're getting pretty much 100% responses telling you this marriage won't work, rather than talking about if he's cheating.

WE ALL KNOW he's cheating. That's a moot point. Why? Because it's not the real problem.

The real problem is that you married someone who takes advantage of you, puts himself first, cheats, drinks, yells and calls you names if things don't go his way, and goes on and off the wagon.

He doesn't love you as much as he loves himself.

And he never will, unless you TEACH him how to respect you. By YOU respecting you first. You have to expect and demand respect. Instead, you whine about how bad you feel and then wait for him to change. It doesn't work like that. Your dysfunctional FOO hasn't taught you how to respect yourself; it's not your fault. But you're here now, and you can learn. 

The path you're on? You'll never be happy, and he will only get worse; before long, he'll have a second house for his mistress. And won't care if you know because you have proven to him that you're a doormat and will let him do whatever he wants, _as long as he doesn't leave you._ YOU have taught him that.

You've only been married a year. You have a chance to change this situation. But it will never happen until you are ready to respect yourself. Hopefully through therapy.


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## Cheese (Sep 6, 2012)

turnera said:


> Cheese, was one of your parents an alcoholic?
> 
> 
> *
> ...


No, my pretty much all the males on my moms side are/were...my uncle, my grandfather, cousins, my grandfathers 5 brothers...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cheese (Sep 6, 2012)

turnera said:


> Do you think that's a good thing?
> 
> It's not.


I realize it's not...but it's very hard for me to ask for things for myself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Cheese said:


> No, my pretty much all the males on my moms side are/were...my uncle, my grandfather, cousins, my grandfathers 5 brothers...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Same difference. Your whole family learned to be enablers. It's just what happens. And it's why you married an alcoholic. You are going to have to educate yourself on this, to have ANY hope of salvaging this marriage. Tons of great websites, and look up the closest Adult Children of Alcoholics chapter. Start attending meetings. It will teach you how to deal with your husband and, possibly, help him.

Welcome to Adult Children of Alcoholics - World Service Organization, Inc.

Games Alcoholic Families Play

Enabling Relationships and Alcoholism


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

Cheese, 
Take a look of a photo of your younger self, as a child... what would you tell that person ... how would you, looking at that person, want them to be treated ?...take a closer look , bc it’s you you’re looking at ... care for yourself ...

~sammy


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Cheese said:


> I realize it's not...but it's very hard for me to ask for things for myself.


 I am a 54-year-old carbon copy of you. When I finally got unhappy enough and went back to therapy this summer, I asked my IC what I could do to learn to like myself. To stop putting myself last. To be able to ask for things for myself.

Do you know what she told me to do, to achieve this? To STOP doing things just to please my husband. To stop avoiding things that would displease him. To PUT MYSELF FIRST.

It's a physical act I (you) have to take, but just doing the physical act TELLS MYSELF that I am worthy of being loved. You have no idea how strong and powerful just doing that is. The mere fact of doing something for myself instead of putting my husband first is teaching me how to love myself.

Try it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

And here's the great thing: Once you start putting yourself first, your husband will notice. He'll stop taking you for granted. He'll start respecting you. He may even start 'wanting' you more and find you more desirable and realize he doesn't need a 'real woman' like those women who will take what they want that he is cheating on you with. 

Note, however, you are in a very complicated situation - your FOO, his FOO, his cheating, and you making changes doesn't happen overnight. And don't forget his Change Back! behavior that he will exhibit to try to get you to change back into the little mouse he thinks you are. It will get ugly. But it's better than what you have now. And you will learn to find happiness with or without a man, that you don't HAVE to have a man want you, to feel beautiful or important or good.

Therapy. Today.


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## Cheese (Sep 6, 2012)

turnera said:


> And here's the great thing: Once you start putting yourself first, your husband will notice. He'll stop taking you for granted. He'll start respecting you. He may even start 'wanting' you more and find you more desirable and realize he doesn't need a 'real woman' like those women who will take what they want that he is cheating on you with.
> 
> Note, however, you are in a very complicated situation - your FOO, his FOO, his cheating, and you making changes doesn't happen overnight. And don't forget his Change Back! behavior that he will exhibit to try to get you to change back into the little mouse he thinks you are. It will get ugly. But it's better than what you have now. And you will learn to find happiness with or without a man, that you don't HAVE to have a man want you, to feel beautiful or important or good.
> 
> Therapy. Today.


I have been put down my whole life...even growing up everything was about my mother and her feelings. My dad always catered to her and it drove me crazy. I've turned into my father.


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## Cheese (Sep 6, 2012)

turnera said:


> Would he stay married if you were doing this with two other men? Then why are you?


I do love him very much and I've never felt so much love coming from another person when they look at me as I do from him and never been so happy. Then his drinking started getting very bad as the wedding was coming up and I just chalked it up to him being stressed about the wedding and about the cross country trip for it (driving across Canada with my two youngest kids...then 9 & 15...in the car). After the wedding it kept getting worse...until the really bad May and June. I finally got him to realize that we only fight when he's drinking, that that is when he has the most problems with his temper...and that I really wouldn't mind if he was able to have just a couple, but that the fact was he couldn't stop with just a few. I told him I love him very much but I couldn't watch him self-destruct any more.

I know he would not allow it if it was me talking to another man, and have said that to him...but he doesn't see anything wrong with his talking to her since it is mostly about site stuff and she is so far away. He does not know I have been on his computer again recently.


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## Cheese (Sep 6, 2012)

turnera said:


> Same difference. Your whole family learned to be enablers. It's just what happens. And it's why you married an alcoholic.


I have come to learn recently the term enabler...but I never thought about the fact that that is how I have been trained since birth. I am an enabler, the fixer, the peace maker...and yes, the doormat so that no one else is upset. 

It is incredible how much stuff gets dumped on me by my husband, my kids, my ex husband, my husband and ex husband both concerning the kids, my parents. I have become everyones emotional punching bag.


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## oneMOreguy (Aug 22, 2012)

*I do love him very much and I've never felt so much love coming from another person when they look at me as I do from him *

...ummmmm...you realize you are saying this about a man who has physically and emotionally abused you, and is openly having an online affairs and tells you to go mind your own business???

This is a man who is willing to tolerate you, and show you affection on his terms when it is convenient to him. He is treating you like a pet dog........is this really the man you want being a role model for your children? March over to the nearest mirror and tell yourself that you are a good and decent person, and that you DESERVE to be with a man who shows you love and respect ALL of the time. Repeat this every morning until this sinks in as truth. Please do this....right now you do not believe internally that you actually deserve better than this.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Cheese said:


> I have come to learn recently the term enabler...but I never thought about the fact that that is how I have been trained since birth. I am an enabler, the fixer, the peace maker...and yes, the doormat so that no one else is upset.
> 
> It is incredible how much stuff gets dumped on me by my husband, my kids, my ex husband, my husband and ex husband both concerning the kids, my parents. I have become everyones emotional punching bag.


So stop.

Seriously. Just stop.

Learn this: The next time someone 'dumps' on you, you hold up your hand and say "I don't deserve this" and turn around and leave the room. It's the very first boundary people are taught, the easiest to do, and the most empowering. You don't get into an argument or discussion, you just educate people on what you will or won't listen to. And you SHOW them by leaving the room they are in (or hanging up).

Promise me you will do this the next time.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Cheese said:


> I've never felt so much love coming from another person when they look at me


When - WHEN, not IF - you read the book Why Does He Do That? Inside The Minds Of Angry And Controlling Men, you will learn one thing:

An abusive man THINKS he loves you and is capable of SHOWING this 'love' because he feels, intensely. But it is not love. It is possession. He wants what he wants and he will own it, no matter what. Because he feels so intensely, he believes it is love. And he convinces you it is love. That's why you aren't allowed to do anything, but he is. You are his possession.

The other thing you will learn about such men is that they have an INCREDIBLE, amazing ability to literally charm the socks off of you. It's what they do. They get you SO enamored of them because they are AMAZING to be with, you feel SO LOVED, that you will then start putting up with all the shyte they start throwing at you. Think about it: Would you have allowed him to call you names and scream at you when you were dating? Of course not. So why do you accept it now? Because he has literally brainwashed you into thinking that no one else will love you, no one would have you, only HE can be magnanimous enough to put up with you, and you'd better be grateful. 

He has you hooked, and he knows it. He only drags out the 'good' behaviour when he feels he's losing control of you; get you hooked, then he goes back to doing what he wants - cheating, drinking, whatever serves his purpose.

Please read the book this weekend.


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## Cheese (Sep 6, 2012)

oneMOreguy said:


> you DESERVE to be with a man who shows you love and respect ALL of the time..right now you do not believe internally that you actually deserve better than this.


I have no idea where these men are. My ex husband was emotionally abusive as well. I never thought I'd end up in the same situation. My new husband did not become emotionally abusive until we'd been living together for almost a year and his drinking was coming to light. 

I of course blamed myself, it must be something about me that causes men to treat me this way.



oneMOreguy said:


> right now you do not believe internally that you actually deserve better than this.


I believe that is called hitting the nail on the head...


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## Cheese (Sep 6, 2012)

That is exactly what I am going through. I will definitely have to look for that book...is it available to download online or will I have to pick it up at a bookstore?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I think you can get it anywhere. Even the library.


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## Cheese (Sep 6, 2012)

turnera said:


> And you SHOW them by leaving the room they are in (or hanging up).


 I stood up to my mom by hanging up on her. Three days later she called and told me off...then hung up and didn't talk to me for nine months and I had family members calling me and telling me to call her and apologize.

I get crapped on by everyone around me if I stand up for myself, I get crapped on by everyone around me if I don't.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Cheese said:


> I have no idea where these men are. My ex husband was emotionally abusive as well.


That will stop once you get therapy and get rid of all the crap your FOO threw down on you.

The one big truth of life: we do as adults what we were trained to do as children. If we are taught we deserve crap, we will seek out crap for a partner. So HE can shovel more crap our way, just like our parents did. 

It's VERY subtle, that way we seek out abusers if we're weak, or seek out weak people if we're abusers. Unspoken, unacknowledged, inexplicable. But it happens every single time.

Unless we get help and learn to overcome it.

Read every book and website on abuse you can find.

Start going to therapy every week, if you can afford it; or as often as possible. But be consistent and do NOT let your husband talk you out of it!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Cheese said:


> I stood up to my mom by hanging up on her. Three days later she called and told me off...then hung up and didn't talk to me for nine months and I had family members calling me and telling me to call her and apologize.


When my dad's wife did something that virtually ruined my husband's and my daugther's and my life, and I told my dad that he and his wife could no longer pick up my daughter from preschool, he cut me off. Blamed me. Called me a liar, that I would blame his wife. So I cut them out of our lives (didn't see them again until he was dying). But do you know what my brother did? He begged me to call my dad and APOLOGIZE! It was HIS WIFE who did the deed, and I should apologize? To this day, my brother will still tell me I was wrong. He became SO needy for my dad's love that he would have killed himself if our dad told him to.



Cheese said:


> I get crapped on by everyone around me if I stand up for myself, I get crapped on by everyone around me if I don't.


 Then throw them out of your life.

You don't need them, Cheese. You really don't.


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## Cheese (Sep 6, 2012)

turnera said:


> Then throw them out of your life.
> 
> You don't need them, Cheese. You really don't.


That would literally leave me with my 10 year old son and my dad (who would get caught between my mom and I)

I think I put up with everything because I've numbed myself so it doesn't hurt


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You still don't need them, Cheese. I promise you. I'm not saying cold turkey. I'm saying fix yourself, learn to love yourself, and slowly but surely, you will discover that you honestly don't care if you ever see them again - because they hurt you and you deserve better than being hurt.

In the meantime, after you read Why Does He Do That, get this little great book called The Dance Of Anger. It teaches you how to stand up to the people in your life without making them think you don't love them any more. Great stuff.


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## Cheese (Sep 6, 2012)

turnera said:


> In the meantime, after you read Why Does He Do That, get this little great book called The Dance Of Anger. It teaches you how to stand up to the people in your life without making them think you don't love them any more. Great stuff.


I have the first one on hold to pick up tomorrow, have to go across the city to get it :S and I will definitely read it. Thank you very much for the titles.


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