# What is a sh!t test?



## kag123

Being 100% serious - I see this mentioned a lot, what on earth is this?


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## WorkingOnMe

google is your friend. In the Married Man Sex Life Primer it's called a fitness test. It's basically a test of leadership. Will the man have the balls to put his wife in her place. There are many examples. Like asking questions with no good answers (does this dress make me look fat?) Or asking your man to do something you are completely capable of doing just to show you can order him around (can you put this dish in the dishwasher for me?). 

These tests are opportunities and traps at the same time. If a man fails the test then the woman thinks she "won" but in reality she loses a little respect for him which can build up over time. If a man calls her on it then she might get mad in the short term but her respect for him grows.


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## CandieGirl

A sh!t test is something that men think we women do to keep them on their toes. ;-)


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## kag123

CandieGirl said:


> A sh!t test is something that men think we women do to keep them on their toes. ;-)


This is kind of why I was asking here, rather than googling. I am interested in hearing men's personal opinions of what it is (not just the book definition).

I think I just read maybe 10 or so threads where a man was an author and they mentioned their wives performing these fitness tests.

I scratch my head and think, either there are a crap load of super immature women in the world (which I don't doubt is true), or anything a woman does is being over analyzed and seen as a fitness test? 

If I am not allowed to ask my husband to put a dish in the dishwasher without it being called a fitness test - sheesh!

Just trying to understand, that's all.


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## WorkingOnMe

kag123 said:


> This is kind of why I was asking here, rather than googling. I am interested in hearing men's personal opinions of what it is (not just the book definition).
> 
> I think I just read maybe 10 or so threads where a man was an author and they mentioned their wives performing these fitness tests.
> 
> I scratch my head and think, either there are a crap load of super immature women in the world (which I don't doubt is true), or anything a woman does is being over analyzed and seen as a fitness test?
> 
> If I am not allowed to ask my husband to put a dish in the dishwasher without it being called a fitness test - sheesh!
> 
> Just trying to understand, that's all.


Ok I used a bad example. But if you're standing in the kitchen and he's on the couch watching the news after working all day, and you ask him to get up and put the dish in the dishwasher that you're standing 5 feet from, yes it's a sh!t test.


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## ocotillo

When I first met my wife, she told me her name was 'Friz Freleng' and flat out told me a few months later that I wouldn't have had a dance with her if I hadn't gotten the joke. 

Consciously or unconsciously, that was test of attention to detail, sense of humor and probably even intelligence all rolled into one.

Sh!t tests are common at the dating stage, but if it's happening a lot in marriage, I think something is probably wrong.


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## AFEH

It depends a lot on whose definition you use. My wife was passive aggressive so for me a shet test is a thought out and planned act of covert aggression designed to hurt and wound. It’s that getting under the skin but you don’t know it, you just know you hurt like hell and you’ve suddenly got very angry. The equivalent shet test say from man to a woman would be the man using his fists on his wife, pushing her against a wall, onto the floor in acts of overt aggression.


Whereas on the other hand a fitness test is something we do say when dating. We look to see if they’re financially responsible, sociable, have a good sense of humour, would make a good parent, be a good provider etc. etc. Within a marriage we’ll sometimes fitness test as well. Lets say we’re thinking of giving up and leaving or we think our partner is considering leaving. We may well then fitness test them to try and discover what the true situation is.


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## Ten_year_hubby

WorkingOnMe said:


> Or asking your man to do something you are completely capable of doing just to show you can order him around (can you put this dish in the dishwasher for me?).


What about her asking you to fasten her bra when she is completely capable. Am I losing respect every time I fasten it for her?


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## WorkingOnMe

Ten_year_hubby said:


> What about her asking you to fasten her bra when she is completely capable. Am I losing respect every time I fasten it for her?


Not as long as you cop a feel in the process.


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## Gaia

Ok.. I don't know about other women and frankly this shyt test thing seems like another conspiracy theory buuut I gain respect for my man if he does something I ask him to do. Such as... if I asked him to go put a dish in the sink... and he does... that shows me he cares enough to listen the first time... and uf he does it without me asking... I gain even more respect for him. Then again it might be because I'm weird lol but if it were reversed and he asked me to do something for him... I would do it no problem. Perhaps its people misunderstanding the acts of service love language?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gaia

WorkingOnMe said:


> Ok I used a bad example. But if you're standing in the kitchen and he's on the couch watching the news after working all day, and you ask him to get up and put the dish in the dishwasher that you're standing 5 feet from, yes it's a sh!t test.


And if she asked this because she was busy preparing a meal? Would it really be some sort of test?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## norajane

AFEH said:


> It depends a lot on whose definition you use. My wife was passive aggressive so for me a shet test is a thought out and planned act of covert aggression designed to hurt and wound. It’s that getting under the skin but you don’t know it, you just know you hurt like hell and you’ve suddenly got very angry. The equivalent shet test say from man to a woman would be the man using his fists on his wife, pushing her against a wall, onto the floor in acts of overt aggression.


I don't see where the 'test' part comes in. What you describe are aggressive, abusive acts that have no place in any relationship - these are things people do because they suck as people, not because they are testing you.


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## WalkingInLight

A fitness test is a women testing to see if the man she is with will hold on to being the person he is determined to be.

I like what an earlier poster said - kind of keeping us on our toes. But not in any effort/attempt to trip us up, just kind of like checking a car tire to see if it has the right amount of air in it 

I don't think it has anything to do with dishes.

I'm determined not to swear anymore. I used to do it a lot and often directed at my wife when I was angry. 

The other day I was watching a movie in which there was a lot of swearing. My wife walked in and said, "What are you watching? Why would you watch that when you told me you didn't like swearing anymore and don't want to do it yourself?"

This was my fitness test. Did I choose to tell her to go away and leave me alone because I felt uncomfortable with her challenging my commitment to be the best man I could be? Or did I acknowledge that she was right, turn the movie off, and thank her for her encouragement?

That's a fitness test in my opinion.


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## donny64

kag123 said:


> This is kind of why I was asking here, rather than googling. I am interested in hearing men's personal opinions of what it is (not just the book definition).
> 
> I think I just read maybe 10 or so threads where a man was an author and they mentioned their wives performing these fitness tests.
> 
> I scratch my head and think, either there are a crap load of super immature women in the world (which I don't doubt is true), or anything a woman does is being over analyzed and seen as a fitness test?
> 
> If I am not allowed to ask my husband to put a dish in the dishwasher without it being called a fitness test - sheesh!
> 
> Just trying to understand, that's all.


Perfect example of a sh!t test my W threw me a month ago...

I'm outside on patio. She'd just walked in to work on dinner (her night to cook), while I remained to finish up on the computer. Several minutes later, I see her learing at me through the sliding door. I motioned to her "what"? She looked at me with a stern glare for a second, turned and walked back in the kitchen. I was baffled. I got up, went inside and asked what was up. She said "I'm hungry, I want to eat now". I said "well, okay, all you had to do was say so".

So, as I'm walking in with a confused "WTH was that all about" thought and grab our plates to go sit down, as we're walking she says "ha-ha, I got my way". Well, no she didn't. I turned right back around and carried my azz right back outside. 

She hardly ever pulls stuff like this, so not a biggie. But I wasn't folding to it.

An example of a test: Wife says "what if I told you it would be okay for you to sleep with another woman?", when she has no intention of doing so and would never allow it. Just to see how her man will respond and where he is coming from. Does he say "hmmm, okay, let's explore this a little" (obviously not the answer she was looking for...chit test failed). Does he state calmly "Well, it's not ok for me. And if you think it is, we have a problem" (stating his morals that he'd not do it, and putting it back on her for even suggesting it. Test passed). Or he may dismiss as ridiculous and say something like "woohooo! Now I don't have to cancel my three dates tonight, thanks babe!!!", and then drop it. (Test passed, and she was "put in place" by him letting her know he felt her question was ridiculous and silly, and refused to even entertain it).

Other examples would be:

Throwing out unwarranted snarky comments to see how he responds. Does he kiss her azz, or put her in her place. I'd get that one a bit from my W early on in dating (and every once in a great while now). Passed them all. Because I didn't snap back in retaliation, yell, or give a rude response back. I didn't mope. Didn't call her a name (never have in fact). I would simply stop what I was doing and look at her with a raised brow. When she'd finally catch on that it was suddenly quiet and I'd stopped, she'd look at me and say "what?". I'd just say "we're not married (or I'm not your ex husband), and you won't talk to me like we are (I am). When you're ready to get out of marriage mode, let me know". If her response was anything other than "I'm sorry" or some variation thereof, I'd remove myself from the room until she acknowledged she'd messed up. If she accepted it right away, I'd just say something about "I don't take you for granted, I don't ever talk to you like that, and I expect the same from you...I won't have that type of relationship where we talk to each other like that", and then I'd drop it completely as soon as she understood, and we'd continue our evening. Passed on several levels (set the boundary, didn't retaliate, no anger. Just calm reasoning, a willingness to "walk away" from her for bad behavior, and a boundary that I'd not tolerate it).

Acting unreasonable and seeing how he responds. Does he let it go? React with overt and undue anger? Or does he calmly put and end to it?

Making hurtful comments. "My last boyfriend was huge and screwed me so good!". Does the target of the test cry or whine? Mope about? Throw things? Or does her instead calmly set a boundry that such comments will not be tolerated.

Flirting with others. She openly flirts when she knows he's not okay with it. How does he respond? Cry and whine about it, stomp off and mope about, or set a boundary with her? What does he do if she crosses that boundary she was just warned about?

They are basically all about "testing" your confidence, boundaries, and manhood. To see how you stack up. If you're genuine. If you're a guy she can respect.

Some of these (like snarky or hurtful comments) can be a conscious act, or subconscious. If it's a conscious act, she's waiting for the response. If it's subconscious, she may not even realize she did anything, but you can bet if her behavior is not checked, the behavior will likely escalate over the course of the relationship as it becomes more comfortable or people get complacent. And she'll start losing respect for a man who won't stand up for himself as a result. And it's a snowball effect. Once that respect is lost, the chit tests will come harder and faster until she knows you're not a man that will stand up for much of anything, let alone himself or her.


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## Gaia

Omg no that isn't a test ffs. You ever consider maybe she was actually curious? I have asked my man similar questions... such as when he is around someone that smokes. I asked him why he would want to be around them if he said he hated the smell of smoke and didn't want anything to do with it. It wasn't a test at all.. it was me wishing to know if he was really missing having a cigarette that bad. If so I was willing to see if we could work on a comprimise that would still allow him to smoke... but not as often as we can't afford to really support him smoking as much as he used to. That was me wanting an honest answer from him about how he was feeling. 

He of course decided not to be honest about how he was feeling and instead of letting me help him... he decided to lie to me and eventually he slipped up and smoked a cigar... first a cuban one day.. then a cheaper one the next day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## norajane

WalkingInLight said:


> A fitness test is a women testing to see if the man she is with will hold on to being the person he is determined to be.
> 
> I like what an earlier poster said - kind of keeping us on our toes. But not in any effort/attempt to trip us up, just kind of like checking a car tire to see if it has the right amount of air in it
> 
> I don't think it has anything to do with dishes.
> 
> I'm determined not to swear anymore. I used to do it a lot and often directed at my wife when I was angry.
> 
> *The other day I was watching a movie in which there was a lot of swearing. My wife walked in and said, "What are you watching? Why would you watch that when you told me you didn't like swearing anymore and don't want to do it yourself?"*
> 
> This was my fitness test. Did I choose to tell her to go away and leave me alone because I felt uncomfortable with her challenging my commitment to be the best man I could be? Or did I acknowledge that she was right, turn the movie off, and thank her for her encouragement?
> 
> That's a fitness test in my opinion.


Couldn't it have been a simple question to understand apparently contradictory behavior? Perhaps she was striving to understand you better, seeking clarity.

I just feel that putting everything through this "test" language only pits you against each other (in your mind), rather than working as a team toward a common goal: good marriage.


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## Gaia

Ok first of all... its amazing how some of you use the phrase.. "putting her in her place" seriously? If she is openly flirting with men while with you... I don't consider that a test. That's plane out disrespectful! The same applies to a man who pulls that crap!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gaia

Plain* ugh dang phone! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ten_year_hubby

What about a woman who plain out doesn't respect men due maybe to problems with her father in her family of origin. Would she refrain from any testing because she already knows the result? Or would she run test after test just to prove her point of view?


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## Gaia

Ok I can't understand this whole testing bs.... if there are women out there who do play little mind games like that... I feel for the guys... but there are mature women who don't play little high school games. Sorry but that's what this testing bs seems like to me... some sort of immature.. tit for tat high school game.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ocotillo

This article was written by a woman. I'm curious what other ladies think about it.

[Edit]

The forum censor is messing with the link. Here's the URL:

http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2011/03/21/relationshipstrategies/why-we-****-test

The asterisks have to be replaced with the sh!t word


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## donny64

Gaia said:


> Ok first of all... its amazing how some of you use the phrase.. "putting her in her place" seriously? If she is openly flirting with men while with you... I don't consider that a test. That's plane out disrespectful! The same applies to a man who pulls that crap!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, seriously. And it's not "putting her in her place" as in "a woman's place is *this* or *there*". It's "checking" a behavior to put it another way. Believe me, she's put me "in my place" a time or two as well. As recently as last week. Had a place she was trying to meet me and friends. It was a big day for me. She was running late. I got upset. She was supposed to call my friend when she got there, who was waiting for her with a ticket. I couldn't reach her, or him, and they couldn't reach me. I missed a good portion of the event we were at because of it as I was trying to locate her. I later discovered there were legitimate phone issues all around. Still, I was a little "bent" about it all later, even though I knew it wasn't her fault. And I saw her sending a text shortly after, and I said "Oh, I see the phone is working fine now...". It was a wrong comment with no purpose other than to be a sour puss smart azz. I knew it. She knew it. She immediately and calmly, but in no uncertain terms "put me in my place". She was right. It was not any overt or conscious "chit test" on my part, but believe me I took note of her response. And had she not responded as she did, maybe next time I'm showing my azz and being upset, I find it a little easier to be snarky. And it starts to snowball. And soon I've got a woman who's not standing up for herself. And I'm losing respect for her. See what I mean? 

And you need to remember, that these "tests" can be conscious or not. Like the flirting thing. Yes, of course it's disrespectful! That's often the "goal" of the test, is to see if you'll tolerate disrespectful behavior. Or the negative comment things. She may not even realize she's doing it. But she will absolutely take note of your response to it / them. I guarantee it. Those men who fail to realize this are doomed to fail them. The women who don't believe they don't do this on some level and are taking note of the responses by their men are absolutely kidding themselves. 

Ladies...ever ask your man a question you already knew the answer to...just to see if he'd tell you the truth? I'd say that almost everyone here has done that at some point. And guess what? You just gave a chit test. Did he pass it by telling the truth and owning it like a man, or fail it by lying to you and acting like a mouse? And did you gain or lose respect for him OR gain confidence in or doubt his character as a result? Congrats on giving a good "chit test". You know...the ones you don't give?


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## Gaia

Ocotillo... it shows as a 404 error for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gaia

Oh ok nvm just seen your edit lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## donny64

ocotillo said:


> This article was written by a woman. I'm curious what other ladies think about it.
> 
> [Edit]
> 
> The forum censor is messing with the link. Here's the URL:
> 
> http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2011/03/21/relationshipstrategies/why-we-****-test/
> 
> The asterisks have to be replaced with the sh!t word


Pretty good article. She gets it. I laughed about her realization that he was not following her out of the apartment to come get her like every other lame guy had before. Not only that, there was no drama, screaming, or anything else. He calmly went on about his business, then checked her behavior when she returned. She was wrong, knew it, and maybe she didn't do it on purpose or WANT to see how he'd react, but she damn well TOOK NOTE OF IT, didn't she?


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## Gaia

Well I never considered asking a question as giving a test. As for gaining or losing respect? Well whenever gate lied to me about something.... I tend to think... ok what am I doing to make him feel like he can't be honest? Now what would you consider that line of thinking?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Paulination

I think alot of women disagree with the notion of a sh!t test because it can largely be a subconscience effort.

I never realized what they were until I read MMSL and now I see it all of the time. Sucks that us guys have to be this proactive in our marriages to maintain the respect of our wives. 

It seemed like all you had to do was be a good husband, good father, good provider and lover and the marriage would work. You do all of these things and 11 years into it you get the "I'm not happy" speech.


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## WalkingInLight

norajane said:


> Couldn't it have been a simple question to understand apparently contradictory behavior? Perhaps she was striving to understand you better, seeking clarity.


Absolutely. For other men it may have been a simple question from a curious wife.

I beleive i mentioned earlier in my post that I used to be abusive and swore at her a great deal? Since making a determined effort to change, my wife has tested me on several occassions. When I have failed, i do also receive the "uh hu - see, you aren't doing what you said you would do" comments.

So for me, checking on why I would choose to watch a movie filled with swearing was a test - not because just any woman asking such a question is testing, but it was because my wife was asking and I know our history.


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## WalkingInLight

Gaia said:


> Omg no that isn't a test ffs...


Gia, I don't like being sworn at any more than I liked how I used to be when I did it all the time to my wife. Please don't do that again, I don't like it.

Thanks.


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## Gaia

Ah.... ok... that makes more sense walking.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gaia

I wasn't swearing at you walking.. I'm sorry if it came across that way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gaia

What gets me here though is why is it gender specific? You men display this behavior as well.. so why are women the only ones accussed of doing this.. so called testing?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WalkingInLight

Gaia said:


> I wasn't swearing at you walking.. I'm sorry if it came across that way.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you, I appreciate that.


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## donny64

Gaia said:


> Well I never considered asking a question as giving a test. As for gaining or losing respect? Well whenever gate lied to me about something.... I tend to think... ok what am I doing to make him feel like he can't be honest? Now what would you consider that line of thinking?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think that line of thinking can be destructive. You are not responsible for your husband telling you the truth. HE IS. If you have "done something to make him feel like he can't be honest", then HE NEEDS to either suck it up, man up like a big boy and state his case and be honest anyway, orsimply NOT DO the behavior he knows you won't be happy with! To do otherwise demonstrates he can't be trusted to either tell you the truth, OR, to stand up for himself. There is no place for lies like this in marriage. And the one who is being lied to is NEVER at fault for such a thing. The person lying is either simply hiding something bad, or too much of a mouse to stand up for themselves or have a rational converation and perhaps come to a compromise.


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## Readytogo

Would this be the same thing?:
My sister and I visited our aunt and uncle. The uncle works from his home office. The aunt does not work. She is a home maker.
When ever she needs to go to the store, she asks him to pull out the car for her out of the car port/drive.
My sister and I gave eachother an odd look - can she not back out her car??, 
we offered so her husband wouldn't be interupted. But she quickly hushed us and said "no, shhhh. I've got him trained to do these things. Don't reck it for me.".... My sister and I thought, "wow she's got him whipped". I wouldn't want a man to act like my maid. Nice gestures and help around the house is good. Team work and clean up after yourself - great. But the way she talked to this smart, well educated man, I thought very weird.


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## WalkingInLight

Gaia said:


> What gets me here though is why is it gender specific? You men display this behavior as well.. so why are women the only ones accussed of doing this.. so called testing?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hmm. Do you have an example to share? I would have said that men don't test quite the same way...

I might, for example, do something nice for my wife and then wait to see if she says thank you (which is not great behavior on my part) and tested her in that way. But I don't know if I would call her out on something in quite the same fashion.

Again, a specific example would be helpful if you don't mind sharing.


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## WalkingInLight

Readytogo said:


> Would this be the same thing?:
> ... Don't reck it for me...


I't might be a tad manipulative, in my opinion, but I don't think it's a "test."

But hey, we don't know the details of their lives so it's tough to know what is and is not a test for your uncle. Every marriage is different.


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## donny64

Gaia said:


> What gets me here though is why is it gender specific? You men display this behavior as well.. so why are women the only ones accussed of doing this.. so called testing?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It really is not. I think we all do it. But I think it takes a bigger part in the selection processes for a female chosing a man than it does for a man chosing a women. On a basic level, we're attracted to different things. Women want honest, good men who will stand up for her and any children they may have. He has to demonstrate an ability to do so. To be a protector of what he holds dear. If he does not do this, he's unworthy. She has to have confidence in him. And women are constantly being hit on, whereas men are not. And men are good at hitting on women, and giving the illusion of being something they're not, and getting her to believe otherwise with some smooth talking. So, women need to "weed out" unworthy mates quicker than we men do. And in a very basic way, it's more important for you to do so. You need to know that we, the "man" and the "protector" will always do what's right by you and your children whose welfare you're going to entrust to him.

And, BTW, that example in the linked article is a great example of a test. She didn't even possibly realize she was giving a "test" at all. But, the way he responeded, calmly, not chasing her, no dramatic screaming or crying contest in the park, no begging, etc was perfect. How, do you think, her attraction went either up or down for him as a result of how he handled that situation? And do you think she'd continue to throw her self described "hissy fits" in the future after seeing his response? She got "checked", and respected him for it, even if on the surface she "wanted him to chase after her". Or so she thought. That's NOT what she wanted or needed deep inside.


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## ocotillo

Gaia said:


> What gets me here though is why is it gender specific? You men display this behavior as well.. so why are women the only ones accussed of doing this.. so called testing?


Well there's no doubt that men test too. I was downtown once and on the way back to the parking garage, happened to see my wife having lunch with another man in the open-air section of a sit-down restaurant.

During the course of conversation that evening, I casually asked her what she had for lunch. Was that a test? Damn right it was. And if she had responded with anything other than the truth, I would have been worried.

But that doesn't quite meet the casual definitions that are given for the sh!t test, which revolve more around sexual attraction.


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## Gaia

donny64 said:


> I think that line of thinking can be destructive. You are not responsible for your husband telling you the truth. HE IS. If you have "done something to make him feel like he can't be honest", then HE NEEDS to either suck it up, man up like a big boy and state his case and be honest anyway, orsimply NOT DO the behavior he knows you won't be happy with! To do otherwise demonstrates he can't be trusted to either tell you the truth, OR, to stand up for himself. There is no place for lies like this in marriage. And the one who is being lied to is NEVER at fault for such a thing. The person lying is either simply hiding something bad, or too much of a mouse to stand up for themselves or have a rational converation and perhaps come to a compromise.


He does tell me not to think in that manner as well but its kind of hard not to since its how I grew up lol. I really think that he might see it as a test like some of you here have claimed it to be. Of course I certainly wasn't testing him.. I was actually curious and wanted to help him out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gaia

WalkingInLight said:


> Hmm. Do you have an example to share? I would have said that men don't test quite the same way...
> 
> I might, for example, do something nice for my wife and then wait to see if she says thank you (which is not great behavior on my part) and tested her in that way. But I don't know if I would call her out on something in quite the same fashion.
> 
> Again, a specific example would be helpful if you don't mind sharing.


The example given with the dishes... could be applied to a man as well, the example about flirting? Same could be applied to a man. The whole... crossing boundaries.... men tend to do this as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

norajane said:


> I don't see where the 'test' part comes in. What you describe are aggressive, abusive acts that have no place in any relationship - these are things people do because they suck as people, not because they are testing you.


Yes and no. For me it was a test of how I manage my pain, anger and aggression. We learn a lot about ourselves in marriage. Plus it wasn’t always there, it happened a few times in our long and essentially happy marriage, the last time being one time too many.

It’s my experience that there are at times hardships, stress and emotion in a marriage. Those conditions can bring out the worst in people. So although my wife was PA, it by no means characterised the whole of who she was, her complete identity. She had fabulous qualities that many would envy and it was those kept with her a very long time. Plus I was deeply in love with her. Walking away from such a love and such a woman was by no means easy, it was traumatising.

Marriage is very much a test and we get tested most in the bad times, we cruise through the good times. The trick is to remember the good and learn from the bad. I am very happy and content with my good memories.


And believe me I seriously tested my wife on occasions, never with violence I hasten to add.


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## AFEH

Gaia said:


> What gets me here though is why is it gender specific? You men display this behavior as well.. so why are women the only ones accussed of doing this.. so called testing?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Why not start up a thread on men testing women instead of hijacking this one? Take the initiative type of thing.

Otherwise it may be taken your either fitness testing or shet testing.


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## Gaia

First of AFEH this thread is about the concept of Shyt testing in general is it not? Its so those of us who haven't heard this concept before could discuss it to try to understand it better. From what I have seen is people labeling this so called testing as merely a female thing.. so me asking why this is.. is suddenly hijacking a thread? If you want to toss out labels then so be it but a question to better understand something is just that.. a question.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gaia

Off*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gaia

By the way AFEH if this shyt/fitness testiing you all talk about is supposedly based on women finding a potential mate... and you wish to accuse me of doing this just because my viewpoint may differ... I really don't appreciate you trying to suggest that I'm out "seeking" a potential mate when I'm already taken. So that statement was quite rude if that's what you were trying to suggest.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kag123

I have read the four pages of response to my question and still don't really feel that I fully understand this concept.

I still stand by my original thinking, that fitness testing is a thing of highschool games and immaturity.

I will be honest and say that I have not read the book MMSL, which is where I assume this idea originated? I will pick up this book and read it myself in the near future. I see it recommended around here a lot, which kind of scares me a bit if this is the take home concept from the book...that men must always be ready to jump at these mind games that women constantly subject them to.

I do think some people (men and women alike) play mind games on purpose for various reasons.

However, I think there are also a lot of women and men who prefer to put themselves above that type of thing and operate in a more open and honest fashion. I like to think that I am one of them. If these games are plated subconsciously...then I cannot be immune to subjecting my H to these tests I suppose. However I cannot remember the last time I asked my husband a trick question to make him squirm or set him up to fail in some way. Why would I do that? If I have a problem with him, I will tell him right there on the spot. If I am in a sh!tty mood, I will admit to it right there on the spot and ask him to give me a few minutes to collect myself. If I make a mistake, I apologize. If I disagree with him, I give him solid reasoning why and we discuss it.

To say that women are maliciously walking around throwing a carrot in front of man and trying to make him jump for it is just not indicative of every one of us. It hurts to see that a whole gender has been cast in this light and that a lot more men are "drinking the kool aid" buying into this idea.

To be constantly suspicious of your partners intent and looking for hidden meaning behind their every action just doesn't seem like a healthy place to be growing a marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gaia

I agree kag.. your post is exactly how I feel about the matter.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

Gaia said:


> By the way AFEH if this shyt/fitness testiing you all talk about is supposedly based on women finding a potential mate... and you wish to accuse me of doing this just because my viewpoint may differ... *I really don't appreciate you trying to suggest that I'm out "seeking" a potential mate when I'm already taken.* So that statement was quite rude if that's what you were trying to suggest.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't know what sort of test to call that. Maybe the jumping to conclusions and making a false accusation test? Or the Strawman test? 



I was serious. Why not start up your own thread about men testing women if that's what you want to discuss.


I like the gender differences, love and appreciate them in fact and it's a personal thing for me to keep them separate.


When there's an attempt to turn a thread here into a gender neutral one it does feel like a hijack. In the past it's happened many times, initiated by feminists. For me at least it's good that it hasn't happened in a while, it got truly out of hand.


So why not take the initiative and start you own thread. What on earth are you afraid of? Responsibility? Taking the Initiative?


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## Gaia

If you were so against the idea of a thread becomming gender specific AFEH then you would see that this is what I had been pointing out in my post. That it seemed to be heading in that direction. I find it amusing how you fail to see where I said... IF this is what you were suggesting.. I don't appreciate it. That is in no way testing of any kind. Its a statement made based on what explainations were given here about these so called tests. 



Oh kag.. do you feel as if I'm hijacking your thread? If so... let me know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

kag123 said:


> I have read the four pages of response to my question and still don't really feel that I fully understand this concept.
> 
> *I still stand by my original thinking, that fitness testing is a thing of highschool games and immaturity.*
> 
> I will be honest and say that I have not read the book MMSL, which is where I assume this idea originated? I will pick up this book and read it myself in the near future. I see it recommended around here a lot, which kind of scares me a bit if this is the take home concept from the book...that men must always be ready to jump at these mind games that women constantly subject them to.
> 
> I do think some people (men and women alike) play mind games on purpose for various reasons.
> 
> However, I think there are also a lot of women and men who prefer to put themselves above that type of thing and operate in a more open and honest fashion. I like to think that I am one of them. If these games are plated subconsciously...then I cannot be immune to subjecting my H to these tests I suppose. However I cannot remember the last time I asked my husband a trick question to make him squirm or set him up to fail in some way. Why would I do that? If I have a problem with him, I will tell him right there on the spot. If I am in a sh!tty mood, I will admit to it right there on the spot and ask him to give me a few minutes to collect myself. If I make a mistake, I apologize. If I disagree with him, I give him solid reasoning why and we discuss it.
> 
> To say that women are maliciously walking around throwing a carrot in front of man and trying to make him jump for it is just not indicative of every one of us. It hurts to see that a whole gender has been cast in this light and that a lot more men are "drinking the kool aid" buying into this idea.
> 
> To be constantly suspicious of your partners intent and looking for hidden meaning behind their every action just doesn't seem like a healthy place to be growing a marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just goes to show how little you know. Let me see if I can educate you. Or rather if you can be educated.

Fitness testing and shet testing really comes into it’s own with couples in their late 60s and 70s, when they’ve reached retirement age and they’re 24x7 365 days a year together for the first time ever in their lives. If a couple are unwise and unenlightened, it can be hell. That’s without all the illnesses.

There’s a new trend at the moment with couples in their 50s, the new 40s. They’re fitter and richer than ever before, no dependent children and suddenly one wants to stay where they are and the other to move to another continent. Should see the shet testing and fitness testing that goes on then.

Then of course there’s the traditional, bulk standard everyday run-of-the-mill mid-life-transitions. That one contains bucket loads of shet tests and fitness tests if it doesn’t go smoothly and turn into a mid-life-crisis. And that’s not just the husband but typically a few years later the wife.

And then my goodness there’s wait for it menopause! You would not believe the fitness testing and shet testing that goes on there, again if things don’t go smoothly and even when they do when the wife’s sexual desires and needs suddenly ramp up.

And then there’s the career or careers. That reaching the big 4 0 and am I doing well in my career, what’s the retirement plan like, how much left to pay on the mortgage, do I actually like my life and still love my wife/husband, shall I change my career. A who bundle of shet testing and fitness testing there as well.

And then there’s wait for it infidelity and betrayal. A whole bundle of shet testing and fitness testing there.


But as you are so perfect I’m certain you’ll avoid any shet testing or fitness testing in your marriage. And that would sure make you, your husband and your marriage perfect.


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## kag123

Yikes.

Never claimed to be perfect. Certainly far from it.

Despite the fact that I do have my own thoughts and opinions on this subject, I did create the thread with the intention of understanding the phenomenon and especially how it is so easily thrown around in every day language on this forum. I did say in my opening statement of the last post that I feel that I still do not understand. I am still coming from a place of listening and attempting to understand.

Your reply to me only included facts that illustrated that it does happen, at many stages of life. I never argued it didn't. I am simply trying to wrap my head around the thought process and that apparently every woman out there does this both consciously and subconsciously.

Also, why respond to anyone who asks questions or shares opinions in that manner? I appreciate your willingness to try to explain your point of view but don't think the attitude is necessary to have your point heard. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gaia

Oooh I get it now... I think. So from your definition.. AFEH... any form of disagreement or different point of view... would be considered some sort of test? So any arguement or discussion that two parties or more don't agree on.. or have different POVs... is one big test? That's what it seems like your implying here AFEH.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

kag123 said:


> Yikes.
> 
> Never claimed to be perfect. Certainly far from it.
> 
> Despite the fact that I do have my own thoughts and opinions on this subject, I did create the thread with the intention of understanding the phenomenon and especially how it is so easily thrown around in every day language on this forum. I did say in my opening statement of the last post that I feel that I still do not understand. I am still coming from a place of listening and attempting to understand.
> 
> Your reply to me only included facts that illustrated that it does happen, at many stages of life. I never argued it didn't. I am simply trying to wrap my head around the thought process and *that apparently every woman out there does this both consciously and subconsciously.*
> 
> Also, why respond to anyone who asks questions or shares opinions in that manner? I appreciate your willingness to try to explain your point of view but don't think the attitude is necessary to have your point heard.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You think you're not going to shet test or fitness test your husband either consciously or unconsciously at some time in your marriage? Good luck with that one.


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## donny64

So, we have a woman coming to the "dark side" (men's forum" asking for honest opinions about what these are, and what they're about. We tell them. And somehow are wrong about our thoughts on this? 

The testing isn't about "playing games" for most women. With some, yes it is. And they're easy to weed out as the manipulative, ball busting women we want nothing to do with. The rest of the women do it as an ocassional overt test (is he lying? Might he cheat? What are his boundaries for him and me, and will he stand by his and enforce mine). And other tests you don't know you're giving. Because you're not actually "testing" us or trying to get a reaction out of us. You had a bad day. You come home and snap on hubby. You know it is wrong, but do it anyway. How your man responds to that WILL...WILL have an effect on how you feel about him, and your attraction to him. Perid. If he flips out, yells, throws things, he's failing and you are losing respect and attraction for him. Because of this, you may be inclined to continue such behavior. And it snowballs. However, if he handles it right, you know you crossed a line, should not do it again, he was calm, firm, and steady. The relationship, as a result, is better. For him because he is not pizzed now, is not harboring resentment, and it's done. Everyone moves on, the problem is resolved, and there's no resentment eating away at the core of your relationship. On your end as a female, that is both deserving of respect, and maintains if not increases your attraction to this man you want to be a "rock" and "steady" in the face of challenges. On the other hand, if he blows up, or conversely "takes it", continues to take it because he is afraid to tell you how he really feels about it, he becomes a doormat, and resentment builds. The relationship suffers. The sex life suffers. 

If you're still not buying into this, take a peek at the sex forums and infidelity forums. How many men there who are not getting it from their wives, or their wives are giving it to someone else. Because they're no longer attracted to their husbands. Because their husbands are doormats, or have shown themselves to be azzhats (failing relationship tests). It is a near constant, recurring theme. It's a pattern. 

You wanted what we think. At least from this guy, that's what I think. And I've got almost 50 years of both failing "tests" early on, and passing them later in life as a basis for my opinions. I know how these "tests" have impacted my relatiinships over the years. And you know what? This is the funny and easy part...the minute I decided I would not act contrary to how I felt, and was determined to stop putting up with behaviors from my partners I did not like just to "get along" like most p-whipped and "nice guys" do, my relationship success SKYROCKETED!!! Because I stood up for myself. It made me happier, and the women I was with happier. They respected me, and were attracted to me on an ongoing basis. No, it is not a home run every time, because at the end of the day some women like a man they can walk all over. Most don't. And most won't tolerate a man they can do that to. Those are the women I started pursuing and now want (and have).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gaia

No one said anyone was wrong. We as females are sharing our pov on the matter and trying to comprehend how you males are seeing this. I do thank you for your explaination donny but I doubt I will ever see my spouse snapping because he is stressed or me snapping due to stress as a test. I would simply see it for what it was. A mental lapse due to stress and by having a calm discussion about ways to cope with said stress will no doubt make things better in the future. 

As for those women and men who cross boundaries for one reason or another... hmm sorry but I see that as an act of self centered ignorance... not a test.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## donny64

Another "chit test" we see men complain about here all the time. He initiates sex. She says "no". Does he say "hey, I don't talk to you like that, so don't do it to me" OR does he take it. Let the resentment build. Beg for sex. They try to do the things she THINKS she "needs" (when she really has no idea herself why she's not attracted to him anymore or why she feels it's ok to be a rude, insensitive b!tch and dismiss him like a child) when no amount of housework, cooking dinners, and kissing azz can correct the fact he's being a doormat, displaying submissive behavior as a "MAN". A man she can't be attracted to because he's puzzing out and does not consider himself worthy of her, so he tolerates it. And begs for sex he never gets. And both parties "wonder" why she can't get in the mood. She wonders why she doesn't want to jump his bones at every turn like she did "in the first year when we had an awesome sex life". You want to know why? Because in that forst year, you were insanely attracted to him. You didn't know if you could keep him. You were challenged by him. That all changes when he becomes a doormat and starts to consistently fail your tests of attraction and fitness. 

We see it here EVERY SINGLE DAY!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WorkingOnMe

You guys are all distorting it. It's simple: it's an unfair question or task. Its an abusive question, and if he answers it or accepts the abusive task then he gets it wrong. If he stands up to the abuse then he gets it right. 

If you ask your husband to do an unreasonable task then you're sh1t testing him. You're seeing if he'll take your sh1t.


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## Cosmos

It's setting someone up to pass some random and/or obscure and/or unrealistic test in order to see how much sh!t they will take before digging in their heels and telling us where to go. Hence the term "Sh!t Test."


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## WorkingOnMe

It's about fitness. A woman wants to know that her man can protect and take care of her. This is her way of finding out. Is he strong enough to stand up to her.


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## donny64

Gaia said:


> No one said anyone was wrong. We as females are sharing our pov on the matter and trying to comprehend how you males are seeing this. I do thank you for your explaination donny but I doubt I will ever see my spouse snapping because he is stressed or me snapping due to stress as a test. I would simply see it for what it was. A mental lapse due to stress and by having a calm discussion about ways to cope with said stress will no doubt make things better in the future.
> 
> As for those women and men who cross boundaries for one reason or another... hmm sorry but I see that as an act of self centered ignorance... not a test.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You have to stop thinking about this as a game or a "test" if you want to understand it. Your example above about the snapping and talking about it calmly. Sounds like he "passed" this "test". In essense, said he was not ok with it,)ou discussed it, and it was over. I'm betting you feel you have a good man as a result, and will endeavor to not do it again, right?

How would you feel if he blew up at you? Retaliated or called you names instead of stating his displeasure and calmly discussing a "fix"? Sure, you screwed up, but my bet (I'll place my house on it) is that had he reacted in the latter manner, you'd have lost respect for him. 

We call them "chit tests". Call them what you will, chit tests or "relationship challenges" perhaps (hey, I should trademark that), how he responds is a huge factor in how you feel about him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ocotillo

kag123 said:


> Yikes.
> 
> Never claimed to be perfect. Certainly far from it.
> 
> Despite the fact that I do have my own thoughts and opinions on this subject, I did create the thread with the intention of understanding the phenomenon and especially how it is so easily thrown around in every day language on this forum....


Well humans all size each other up when we first meet and this continues as we get to know each other further.

Seriously, if you were Marilyn vos Savant, would you want to date a man who thinks Archie comic books are entertaining?

With that in mind, if a man approached you at a social function, wouldn't you ask a few questions and see how he responds?


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## Gaia

I thought those problems were due to poor communication and different love languages... not tests. By the way.. I don't go around throwing tests at my spouse to see if he is "worthy" . To me... that's just disrespectful... I love him for who he is... even if we don't always agree or get along. I have way to much respect for him to be playing games like these tests seem to be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WorkingOnMe

You walk into a room and say to yourself 'let's see how much sh1t he'll take today' and then you proceed from there.


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## kag123

donny64 said:


> So, we have a woman coming to the "dark side" (men's forum" asking for honest opinions about what these are, and what they're about. We tell them. And somehow are wrong about our thoughts on this?
> 
> The testing isn't about "playing games" for most women. With some, yes it is. And they're easy to weed out as the manipulative, ball busting women we want nothing to do with. The rest of the women do it as an ocassional overt test (is he lying? Might he cheat? What are his boundaries for him and me, and will he stand by his and enforce mine). And other tests you don't know you're giving. Because you're not actually "testing" us or trying to get a reaction out of us. You had a bad day. You come home and snap on hubby. You know it is wrong, but do it anyway. How your man responds to that WILL...WILL have an effect on how you feel about him, and your attraction to him. Perid. If he flips out, yells, throws things, he's failing and you are losing respect and attraction for him. Because of this, you may be inclined to continue such behavior. And it snowballs. However, if he handles it right, you know you crossed a line, should not do it again, he was calm, firm, and steady. The relationship, as a result, is better. For him because he is not pizzed now, is not harboring resentment, and it's done. Everyone moves on, the problem is resolved, and there's no resentment eating away at the core of your relationship. On your end as a female, that is both deserving of respect, and maintains if not increases your attraction to this man you want to be a "rock" and "steady" in the face of challenges. On the other hand, if he blows up, or conversely "takes it", continues to take it because he is afraid to tell you how he really feels about it, he becomes a doormat, and resentment builds. The relationship suffers. The sex life suffers.
> 
> If you're still not buying into this, take a peek at the sex forums and infidelity forums. How many men there who are not getting it from their wives, or their wives are giving it to someone else. Because they're no longer attracted to their husbands. Because their husbands are doormats, or have shown themselves to be azzhats (failing relationship tests). It is a near constant, recurring theme. It's a pattern.
> 
> You wanted what we think. At least from this guy, that's what I think. And I've got almost 50 years of both failing "tests" early on, and passing them later in life as a basis for my opinions. I know how these "tests" have impacted my relatiinships over the years. And you know what? This is the funny and easy part...the minute I decided I would not act contrary to how I felt, and was determined to stop putting up with behaviors from my partners I did not like just to "get along" like most p-whipped and "nice guys" do, my relationship success SKYROCKETED!!! Because I stood up for myself. It made me happier, and the women I was with happier. They respected me, and were attracted to me on an ongoing basis. No, it is not a home run every time, because at the end of the day some women like a man they can walk all over. Most don't. And most won't tolerate a man they can do that to. Those are the women I started pursuing and now want (and have).
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This makes sense to me, more than what I have previously read.

Everyone does this though, no? I fail to see how this is isolated to just women.

My H comes home in a sh!t mood a lot. He always has three options ...he can take some time alone to collect himself and return in a better frame of mind, he can discuss with me in a calm manner why he is upset...whether he just wants to vent about his day or I have done something to p!ss him off...or he can leave the 'tude at the door completely. One of those options is NOT to walk around the house treating me and the kids like crap because of his bad mood. And that is typically his default mood. When he goes into this default mood, I quickly call him on it and tell him to remove himself from us and come back when he's calmed down. Over time this constant enforcement of boundaries has worked. He slips occasionally but it takes no more than a minute for him to get his act together. 

So if we are defining any enforcement of boundaries in a marriage as a "test" then maybe I was misunderstanding the new label put in place.

And yea, sure I am guilty of treating my H like crap on occasion. Who hasn't done that? But I do try my best not to do it and so does my H.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WorkingOnMe

Gaia said:


> I thought those problems were due to poor communication and different love languages... not tests. By the way.. I don't go around throwing tests at my spouse to see if he is "worthy" . To me... that's just disrespectful... I love him for who he is... even if we don't always agree or get along. I have way to much respect for him to be playing games like these tests seem to be.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'll bet you did at the beginning. You probably didn't even know you were doing it.


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## Gaia

donny64 said:


> You have to stop thinking about this as a game or a "test" if you want to understand it. Your example above about the snapping and talking about it calmly. Sounds like he "passed" this "test". In essense, said he was not ok with it,)ou discussed it, and it was over. I'm betting you feel you have a good man as a result, and will endeavor to not do it again, right?
> 
> How would you feel if he blew up at you? Retaliated or called you names instead of stating his displeasure and calmly discussing a "fix"? Sure, you screwed up, but my bet (I'll place my house on it) is that had he reacted in the latter manner, you'd have lost respect for him.
> 
> We call them "chit tests". Call them what you will, chit tests or "relationship challenges" perhaps (hey, I should trademark that), how he responds is a huge factor in how you feel about him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Actually I rarely blow up at him... he has blown up at me on quite a few occasions and though I handled it poorly a few times in the past I realized that it was indeed just due to stress on his part.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WorkingOnMe

kag123 said:


> This makes sense to me, more than what I have previously read.
> 
> Everyone does this though, no? I fail to see how this is isolated to just women.
> 
> My H comes home in a sh!t mood a lot. He always has three options ...he can take some time alone to collect himself and return in a better frame of mind, he can discuss with me in a calm manner why he is upset...whether he just wants to vent about his day or I have done something to p!ss him off...or he can leave the 'tude at the door completely. One of those options is NOT to walk around the house treating me and the kids like crap because of his bad mood. And that is typically his default mood. When he goes into this default mood, I quickly call him on it and tell him to remove himself from us and come back when he's calmed down. Over time this constant enforcement of boundaries has worked. He slips occasionally but it takes no more than a minute for him to get his act together.
> 
> So if we are defining any enforcement of boundaries in a marriage as a "test" then maybe I was misunderstanding the new label put in place.
> 
> And yea, sure I am guilty of treating my H like crap on occasion. Who hasn't done that? But I do try my best not to do it and so does my H.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not really the same when a man does it. He's not trying to test your strength or fitness. He might be testing your adoration or submissiveness. But not your fitness. He doesn't need reassurance that you're strong enough to stand up to him. However he might need reassurance that you'll love him even when he's mad.


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## Gaia

WorkingOnMe said:


> I'll bet you did at the beginning. You probably didn't even know you were doing it.


These explainations still confuse me a bit lol... and I don't know if I did or not... some of these descriptions given out sound similar to getting to know someone and seeing how compatable you are with them... sure I have done that... and if that is a test... then I suppose I have done it...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ShawnD

donny64 said:


> Ladies...ever ask your man a question you already knew the answer to...just to see if he'd tell you the truth? I'd say that almost everyone here has done that at some point. And guess what? You just gave a chit test. Did he pass it by telling the truth and owning it like a man, or fail it by lying to you and acting like a mouse? And did you gain or lose respect for him OR gain confidence in or doubt his character as a result? Congrats on giving a good "chit test". You know...the ones you don't give?


I do this to people all the time. It never really bothers me when I catch people lying. I just play along with it and try to carry the conversation as if they were telling the truth. In my mind, it reminds me of those TV shows where person A is lying to person B and person B knows they are lying. In response, person B tries to make the conversations as difficult as possible so person A keeps making up more lies. 



> You walk into a room and say to yourself 'let's see how much sh1t he'll take today' and then you proceed from there.


I think that's called psychopathy.


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## WorkingOnMe

Gaia said:


> These explainations still confuse me a bit lol... and I don't know if I did or not... some of these descriptions given out sound similar to getting to know someone and seeing how compatable you are with them... sure I have done that... and if that is a test... then I suppose I have done it...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Has he ever stood up to you? And later you said to yourself that he was right and you needed to be stood up to? That's a clue that you sh1t tested him and he passed.


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## ocotillo

kag123 said:


> Everyone does this though, no? I fail to see how this is isolated to just women.


Because right or wrong, it has historically fallen upon the man to take the initiative and approach a women he doesn't know, but would like to meet. 

He's the "salesman" and she's the "consumer" in a position to be discriminating. 

I realize that this has shifted a little in the last century or so, but we're all carrying that baggage in our primal minds.


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## AFEH

Gaia said:


> No one said anyone was wrong. We as females are sharing our pov on the matter and trying to comprehend how you males are seeing this. I do thank you for your explaination donny but I doubt I will ever see my spouse snapping because he is stressed or me snapping due to stress as a test. I would simply see it for what it was. A mental lapse due to stress and by having a calm discussion about ways to cope with said stress will no doubt make things better in the future.
> 
> As for those women and men who cross boundaries for one reason or another... hmm sorry *but I see that as an act of self centered ignorance... not a test.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's totally your prerogative, to call it what you like. There’s a lexicon here to aid communication with these things. So we know what we’re talking about. Why not build your own lexicon? Then at least you will know what you are talking about even if nobody else does.


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## kag123

Cosmos said:


> It's setting someone up to pass some random and/or obscure and/or unrealistic test in order to see how much sh!t they will take before digging in their heels and telling us where to go. Hence the term "Sh!t Test."


THIS is exactly why I made the thread.

Who does this? Who honestly, upon waking up in the morning thinks, "Oh I wonder what kind of crazy crap I can throw at my husband today...hmm let's see."

I am sure there ARE people out there like that, but that's a bit far fetched for the average well meaning woman, don't you think? 

This implies, to me, a malicious intent on the part of the woman. Like there is some grand scheme going on, she is the puppet master trying to pull his strings.

Personally, I have no interest in being a puppet master?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gaia

WorkingOnMe said:


> Has he ever stood up to you? And later you said to yourself that he was right and you needed to be stood up to? That's a clue that you sh1t tested him and he passed.


Could you give an example? Because I don't recall him ever having to "stand up to me" at all in the beginning....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WorkingOnMe

Could be anything. Maybe a purchase that you wanted to make that you can't afford?


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## Gaia

AFEH said:


> That's totally your prerogative, to call it what you like. There’s a lexicon here to aid communication with these things. So we know what we’re talking about. Why not build your own lexicon? Then at least you will know what you are talking about even if nobody else does.


Its obvious you disagree with my POV so why not just simply say it? But just because you disagree with my POV does not mean I have to agree with yours. Clearly kag and I have the same viewpoint on this so obviously someone understands me. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

It’s somewhat of a fitness test (or is it a shet test) to try and get some ladies to understand such a simple concept as fitness testing and shet testing.

But maybe it’s just far too abstract a concept for them to comprehend? But then again it isn’t rocket science and I know for a fact even Sheldon would get it in an instant


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## Gaia

Never had that happen working. I never asked him for anything when we first started dating. I was more interested in getting to know him... you know... chatting, discussing things, flirting to show him I was interested.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Paulination

Though I realize many women here don't do this (because they care enough about their marriage to be here) but there is an overwhelmingly prodominate dynamic that happens to alot of good men.

1) Have a wonderful courtship with loads of sex.
2) Get married to the love of your life.
3) Have kids and work your A$$ off to take care of your little family.
4) Because of the love and admiration for your wife you dote on her and do all the things SHE says make her happy.
5) The sex goes out the window.
6) About 7 - 10 years down the road you get the "I'm not happy" or the "ILYBNILWY" speech.
7) If you are really unlucky you find she had an affair.

You then question everything you thought you knew about women and marriage. My wife didn't have an affair but I did get the "I'm Not Happy" speech. She's a SAHM and I have provided all she could want so how can she feel this way?

You know what it takes to make your man happy? Just have meaningful sex with him on a regular basis. You what it takes to make a woman happy? Everything, something, nothing who knows. So us guys fall over backwards with effort and we get ILYBNILWY. Meanwhile so many women know that single little thing that means the world to us and they don't bother.

Well MMSL is a book that deals with female psychology and thinking that leads to the above scenario and how to avoid it. There are many psychologic factors and the idea of a sh!t test is just one of them.


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## Cosmos

kag123 said:


> THIS is exactly why I made the thread.
> 
> Who does this? Who honestly, upon waking up in the morning thinks, "Oh I wonder what kind of crazy crap I can throw at my husband today...hmm let's see."
> 
> I am sure there ARE people out there like that, but that's a bit far fetched for the average well meaning woman, don't you think?
> 
> This implies, to me, a malicious intent on the part of the woman. Like there is some grand scheme going on, she is the puppet master trying to pull his strings.
> 
> Personally, I have no interest in being a puppet master?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree with you. It's not a healthy way to communicate, and it's basically a passive aggressive way of trying to get a desired reaction from the other person.


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## AFEH

Gaia said:


> Its obvious you disagree with my POV so why not just simply say it? But just because you disagree with my POV does not mean I have to agree with yours. Clearly kag and I have the same viewpoint on this so obviously someone understands me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There you go, women. Always trying to change things to suit themselves and ganging up on men. Even their own subject and in their own forum 

Somehow I very much doubt if that was your very first test.


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## Paulination

BTW, if I sound anti-women, I totally am not. I love women. But will I ever marry again and subject myself to the risk of going through this again, fvck no! Twice is enough.


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## Gaia

Geeze AFEH... women are NOT outt to get you. Its perfectly fine and normal to disagree and have different POVs. It seems like no matter how I try to explain this to you... your stuck in.. "oh she or they must be out to get me or men" in general world. I am not in any way a femenist just because my POV differs from your own nor am I throwing out tests at you. Is it really so difficult to comprehend that not all women are out to get men? That some of us actually love, respect, and adore our men? Some of us here believe in putting forth an equal amount of work into the relationship to make it work you know. Some of us here enjoy being able to have teamwork in our relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gaia

That's understandable paul and its sad that your ex put you through such crap. Same goes for you AFEH. I really do feel bad for you guys who didn't have a woman who would try to communicate her needs as well as try to fullfill yours.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

Gaia said:


> Geeze AFEH... women are NOT outt to get you. Its perfectly fine and normal to disagree and have different POVs. It seems like no matter how I try to explain this to you... your stuck in.. "oh she or they must be out to get me or men" in general world. I am not in any way a femenist just because my POV differs from your own nor am I throwing out tests at you. Is it really so difficult to comprehend that not all women are out to get men? That some of us actually love, respect, and adore our men? Some of us here believe in putting forth an equal amount of work into the relationship to make it work you know. Some of us here enjoy being able to have teamwork in our relationship.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was jesting with you. It's good your concerned. But believe me I'm a very contented man who feels blessed to have had his woman by his side for over 40 years, truly blessed. Believe me she tested me and I her, you don't go that long without getting through quite a bit of whatsit.


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## coldshoulder

Paulination said:


> Though I realize many women here don't do this (because they care enough about their marriage to be here) but there is an overwhelmingly prodominate dynamic that happens to alot of good men.
> 
> 1) Have a wonderful courtship with loads of sex.
> 2) Get married to the love of your life.
> 3) Have kids and work your A$$ off to take care of your little family.
> 4) Because of the love and admiration for your wife you dote on her and do all the things SHE says make her happy.
> 5) The sex goes out the window.
> 6) About 7 - 10 years down the road you get the "I'm not happy" or the "ILYBNILWY" speech.
> 7) If you are really unlucky you find she had an affair.
> 
> You then question everything you thought you knew about women and marriage. My wife didn't have an affair but I did get the "I'm Not Happy" speech. She's a SAHM and I have provided all she could want so how can she feel this way?
> 
> You know what it takes to make your man happy? Just have meaningful sex with him on a regular basis. You what it takes to make a woman happy? Everything, something, nothing who knows. So us guys fall over backwards with effort and we get ILYBNILWY. Meanwhile so many women know that single little thing that means the world to us and they don't bother.
> 
> Well MMSL is a book that deals with female psychology and thinking that leads to the above scenario and how to avoid it. There are many psychologic factors and the idea of a sh!t test is just one of them.


Yup...I just got the "Are you happy? 'Cause I'm not..." talk last Saturday...and now what I thought was a great marriage is in limbo...she says "I still love you and don't want to hurt you, but I'm not happy..." 

We are working on it, since she figured I had checked out...but man, what a feeling...I would have been happier if I had gotten hit by a truck!

I need to start reading some of the books...I haven't put the same effort you did in, so I am going to have to take it up a notch...or six! I think I fail the sh!t test regularily...

Later.


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## Paulination

Gaia said:


> That's understandable paul and its sad that your ex put you through such crap. Same goes for you AFEH. I really do feel bad for you guys who didn't have a woman who would try to communicate her needs as well as try to fullfill yours.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I appreciate that but it has happened twice now. The difference is my current wife hasn't cheated on me which is a deal breaker.

The scary think about MMSL and manning up is that it works. Since have stopped being so "nice" to her the relationship has been much better. It sucks though. It used to be that she might be laying in bed in her cute panties and say "I'm craving a slurpie" and I would be out the door to get it. Now, not so much and I get treated better for it:scratchhead:


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## kag123

So I spent a bit of time over at the MMSL website to dig deeper for understanding. 

This was helpful to me, some concrete examples of what is and is not considered fitness testing. - Some Common Fitness Tests… And What Isn’t A Fitness Test | Married Man Sex Life 

I appreciated that Athol Kay himself understands that not every interaction, request, and complaint is a fitness test. I think that is what may have ruffled feathers here. 

In general, I support any kind of literature or idea that keeps people proactive in seeking and giving respect, keeping appropriate boundaries and learning to communicate better. I think that is the root of MMSL principles, and maybe a few will take it too far.

FWIW, a little about myself - I am married to a classic people pleaser, doormat "nice guy" and yes, I would like it very much if he would stand up for himself more often. He is very much always looking to please me when all I want is his true opinion and for him to tell me his thoughts and desires. Even if they conflict with mine. I am always looking to understand him better and to make our marriage a content and safe place for him to open up to me, while at the same time keeping my own boundaries in place and trying to encourage only healthy and respectful communications between the two of us.

I am always looking for ways to better my own communication and in turn, myself, to improve our marriage. I know there are plenty of other women out there like me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

Paulination said:


> Though I realize many women here don't do this (because they care enough about their marriage to be here) but there is an overwhelmingly prodominate dynamic that happens to alot of good men.
> 
> 1) Have a wonderful courtship with loads of sex.
> 2) Get married to the love of your life.
> 3) Have kids and work your A$$ off to take care of your little family.
> 4) Because of the love and admiration for your wife you dote on her and do all the things SHE says make her happy.
> 5) The sex goes out the window.
> 6) About 7 - 10 years down the road you get the "I'm not happy" or the "ILYBNILWY" speech.
> 7) If you are really unlucky you find she had an affair.
> 
> You then question everything you thought you knew about women and marriage. My wife didn't have an affair but I did get the "I'm Not Happy" speech. She's a SAHM and I have provided all she could want so how can she feel this way?
> 
> You know what it takes to make your man happy? Just have meaningful sex with him on a regular basis. You what it takes to make a woman happy? Everything, something, nothing who knows. So us guys fall over backwards with effort and we get ILYBNILWY. Meanwhile so many women know that single little thing that means the world to us and they don't bother.
> 
> Well MMSL is a book that deals with female psychology and thinking that leads to the above scenario and how to avoid it. There are many psychologic factors and the idea of a sh!t test is just one of them.


Sometimes some people are too good, too reliable, consistent, dependable. Think on some of the most consistent, reliable and dependable things that you use.

Take oxygen. Probably the most consistent and reliable thing you use every single minute of every single day, 24x7. Do you treasure it? Do you count your blessings that it’s there “all the time?”. Do you even think about it, ever?

What about the sun that you know will come up in the morning, or the water you know for a fact that will come out of the tap when you turn it on. Or how about that light you switch on.

We never think about those things because they’re always there and we don’t have to do much to ensure we have a constant, consistent and reliable supply of them and because of that we take them for granted. But how long could we live in a world without oxygen or water, what would the world be like, how long would we last if the sun didn’t come up tomorrow morning.

Marriage is like that. The more consistent and reliable you are, the more you provide and the longer you provide for the more you are going to get taken for granted. Unfortunately a husband in your position can’t just “turn the supplies off”. Stop paying the mortgage or rent, you’re in trouble. And how about the services, what if you stop paying for those?

So in a way you are well and truly buggered. The better the husband you are, the more unappreciated and devalued you become.


In over 30 years of paying rent and mortgages I slipped just the once. I paid all the bills in my marriage even though my wife worked, I was a fool. Years later I just couldn’t get my wife to appreciate what I did for her. So to try and wake her up, I told her fictionally “I’m not able to pay the mortgage this month”. Know what she said? “How could you let that happen again”. When I pointed out the point I was making she did at least apologise.




Why not just plan to book yourself a three or four week holiday? Don’t tell your wife until a few days before departure. Get yourself a backpack or whatever and just take yourself off. She’ll have a long time to think about things and may actually fear losing you (all that you provide) because fear of loss is probably the only thing that’s going to wake her out of her slumber!


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## Lyris

I think this is an interesting concept. I don't really subscribe to the unconscious aspect of it, but I think people, in general, do what they can get away with, or as little as they can get away with. That whole, 'you teach people how to treat you' thing.

I remember one time in my relationship with my husband when I felt very firmly in the more powerful position. This was kind of heady, as I hadn't really felt that before. I started treating him not so well, nothing terrible, just inconsiderate and careless behaviour. 

He put up with it for about a week before making it very clear that he would not be sticking around if I didn't snap out of it. And I did, immediately, and felt really sad that I had made him feel bad. But, yeah, if he hadn't called me out and told me in no uncertain terms that he wouldn't put up with it I would have got worse and more entitled. And lost respect for him and probably stopped loving him eventually.

I am a feminist, but I can see how this happens. I have a friend I love who has a super strong personality and a fearsome intellect. She has steamrollered over every man she has been with. She says herself, openly, that she needs a man who can stand up to her. But because she is so strong I think, paradoxically, weaker men are very attracted to her. Strong men, like my husband, probably wouldn't stick around through the first round of tests.


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## donny64

WorkingOnMe said:


> You guys are all distorting it. It's simple: it's an unfair question or task. Its an abusive question, and if he answers it or accepts the abusive task then he gets it wrong. If he stands up to the abuse then he gets it right.
> 
> If you ask your husband to do an unreasonable task then you're sh1t testing him. You're seeing if he'll take your sh1t.


I'd change it to "It's an unfair, unwarranted, or manipulative guestion, task, action, statment or behavior towards the partner either out of complacency, taking them for granted, or to see how they'll respond".

In my mind, that about covers it. In some (most?) cases, there is no motive behind the action...however, motive or not, how one responds to these unwanted behaviors can make all the difference in the world in how the person performing the behaviors views the recipient of them.


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## AFEH

Lyris said:


> I think this is an interesting concept. I don't really subscribe to the unconscious aspect of it, but I think people, in general, do what they can get away with, or as little as they can get away with. That whole, 'you teach people how to treat you' thing.
> 
> I remember one time in my relationship with my husband when I felt very firmly in the more powerful position. This was kind of heady, as I hadn't really felt that before. I started treating him not so well, nothing terrible, just inconsiderate and careless behaviour.
> 
> He put up with it for about a week before making it very clear that he would not be sticking around if I didn't snap out of it. And I did, immediately, and felt really sad that I had made him feel bad. But, yeah, if he hadn't called me out and told me in no uncertain terms that he wouldn't put up with it I would have got worse and more entitled. And lost respect for him and probably stopped loving him eventually.
> 
> I am a feminist, but I can see how this happens. I have a friend I love who has a super strong personality and a fearsome intellect. She has steamrollered over every man she has been with. She says herself, openly, that she needs a man who can stand up to her. But because she is so strong I think, paradoxically, weaker men are very attracted to her. Strong men, like my husband, probably wouldn't stick around through the first round of tests.


In relationships people actually do a lot of what they do subconsciously. That’s why I like Awareness: Amazon.co.uk: Anthony De Mello: Books. Being aware helps us bring our subconscious, automated behaviour into our consciousness. And in that way we can “police and adjust” our own behaviour, for example to see if we’re respecting others boundaries, behaving in a friendly, respectful and civil way to others as we go about our day.

Not all disrespectful, testing behaviour is up there in our consciousness, it’s by no means all deliberate and done with intent. When some are called out on it they’ll go into denial about it, that’s difficult to handle.


Your H handled your testing behaviour with healthy personal boundaries, which obviously is excellent and the way to do it. Well done for adjusting your behaviour for the better in response to his new boundary.


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## AFEH

A lot of testing behaviour is present in a marriage because of a clash in values and beliefs. It’s one such clash that eventually brought my marriage down. We had a directly opposite and opposing, clashing value and belief in forgiveness. I believed in it, my wife didn’t. When I discovered she hadn’t forgiven me for something from 10 or 20 years ago, it was a massive shet test for me and wounded me deeply.

I didn’t handle the shet test well, because of the depth of the pain it caused me on a few occasions I went into meltdown. I responded like a codependent and tried to change my wife to my values and beliefs about forgiveness. The last time it happened I erected very strong, uncompromising personal boundaries against her shet testing value and belief on forgiveness. Which is of course something I should have done many years back when it first happened. But I didn't know about boundaries then which is why I introduced and recommend N.U.T.s. here on TAM.



Not forgiving AND staying within the marriage and taking all that their partner provides in love and good faith is perhaps the most common shet testing and cowardly act of anger, aggression and betrayal in a marriage and brings many marriages down.




Resentment caused by a disbelief in forgiveness is a very common, deeply wounding and exceedingly damaging shet test in marriages.



Maybe resentment is the most common and biggest of all the shet tests within marriages. It sure does bring a lot of marriages down as it totally devalues the partner that's being shet tested.



Obviously there are other clashes of values and beliefs. For example a clash between spend spend spend and save save save. The saver is shet tested in these situations.


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## Feelingdown

A Sh!t test sounds like a pretty sh!tty thing to do if you're a wife.

If there is one thing I hate is playing politics in the home. 

It's one thing I'll always refuse to be a part of, I'll do what I think is right. Otherwise you'll start second guessing everything you do and everythign your wifes asks you to do and go crazy.


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## AFEH

Feelingdown said:


> A Sh!t test sounds like a pretty sh!tty thing to do if you're a wife.
> 
> If there is one thing I hate is playing politics in the home.
> 
> It's one thing I'll always refuse to be a part of, I'll do what I think is right. Otherwise you'll start second guessing everything you do and everythign your wifes asks you to do and go crazy.


Politics may be at the root of some shet tests. But politics is not what's being spoken of here.

Personally I think shet tests are unavoidable. Don't want to get hurt? Don't get married. Avoid marriage and even living with someone you love at all costs. The only way to avoid shet tests is to not get married or to not live long term with a person you are in love with. We don’t go into marriage fearing the worse, we going into marriage hoping for the very best!


Even after long courtships we go into marriage not truly knowing our chosen partner. We come to know them over time. Marriage can at times truly test the person, character we really are at the very core and deepest depths of our psyche.

And it’s through these tests that we really come to know and understand ourselves at the core of our character. How tolerant are we, how patient? How consistent and reliable, empathetic and compassionate are we. Are we fun to be with, good company to keep. Are we optimistic and forward planning, or pessimistic and backward looking. Are we forgiving or are we unforgiving. Do we live our life with credibility and integrity, or do we forsake those values to make a gain at someone else’s loss. Is our word good, or is it bad? 

My wife had phenomenal qualities in her value and belief system and in that I was truly blessed. And so did I and so was she. That’s why we were mutually beneficial to one another and a “good team”. Throw love, desire and passion into the mix and it doesn’t get any better. We clashed a few times over one single value, one single belief in which we were opposite and opposing. There was one too many clashes over that value and belief that brought the marriage down.





If we don’t like what we see at our core, if as a person are not working for well we as a person, then we can change our self at our very core. If we change something we used to value and used to believe in into something new, then we change and improve our behaviour. Which of course is what is happening in the “Manning Up Process”. The men here are changing their values and beliefs at their very core which changes who they are as a man and subsequently how they behave.



It's the changes in her husband's behaviour that their wife sees. Women are the absolute gurus at observing and monitoring their husband's behaviour, rarely a thing will slip past them. The "hope" is she will change in response to his new behaviour for the better as well.



And it is in that most fundamental, deeply meaningful and very committed way that the Man tries to inspire, motivate and lead his wife to a much better, a much healthier and happy marriage for both of them. And in that I take my hat off to every man here!



It doesn't always work as noted here in TAM. But whatever the outcome the Man wins because he has made himself into a better Man. He used his wife's shet testing behaviour to get there! In that when the pain got too much for him to bear, he didn't run away and leave the marriage. He didn’t try and dominate, control and manage his wife. He didn’t have an affair or beat his wife. He didn't get resentful and all pIssy and passive aggressive.


*Rather he led, inspired and motivated and was right there at the committed, invested and risk taking vanguard of changing the marriage for the better by changing himself!*

It really doesn't get any better than that.




What gets tested the most in our marriage are our values and beliefs. Each one of us has very many things that we value and believe in, it’s our value system and as such makes us the unique, one of a kind person in the world we are. There is no other like my wife. I know that. It’s not until we’ve been married for a while that an event occurs or a situation comes about that a clash in a value and belief highlights itself.



There are as many conditions, situations in a marriage that cause a shet test as there are values and beliefs held by the two people within it! The only way to avoid being shet tested is not to have any values or any beliefs and not to get married!


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## CandieGirl

donny64 said:


> Perfect example of a sh!t test my W threw me a month ago...
> 
> I'm outside on patio. She'd just walked in to work on dinner (her night to cook), while I remained to finish up on the computer. Several minutes later, I see her learing at me through the sliding door. I motioned to her "what"? She looked at me with a stern glare for a second, turned and walked back in the kitchen. I was baffled. I got up, went inside and asked what was up. She said "I'm hungry, I want to eat now". I said "well, okay, all you had to do was say so".
> 
> So, as I'm walking in with a confused "WTH was that all about" thought and grab our plates to go sit down, as we're walking she says "ha-ha, I got my way". Well, no she didn't. I turned right back around and carried my azz right back outside.
> 
> She hardly ever pulls stuff like this, so not a biggie. But I wasn't folding to it.
> 
> An example of a test: Wife says "what if I told you it would be okay for you to sleep with another woman?", when she has no intention of doing so and would never allow it. Just to see how her man will respond and where he is coming from. Does he say "hmmm, okay, let's explore this a little" (obviously not the answer she was looking for...chit test failed). Does he state calmly "Well, it's not ok for me. And if you think it is, we have a problem" (stating his morals that he'd not do it, and putting it back on her for even suggesting it. Test passed). Or he may dismiss as ridiculous and say something like "woohooo! Now I don't have to cancel my three dates tonight, thanks babe!!!", and then drop it. (Test passed, and she was "put in place" by him letting her know he felt her question was ridiculous and silly, and refused to even entertain it).
> 
> Other examples would be:
> 
> Throwing out unwarranted snarky comments to see how he responds. Does he kiss her azz, or put her in her place. I'd get that one a bit from my W early on in dating (and every once in a great while now). Passed them all. Because I didn't snap back in retaliation, yell, or give a rude response back. I didn't mope. Didn't call her a name (never have in fact). I would simply stop what I was doing and look at her with a raised brow. When she'd finally catch on that it was suddenly quiet and I'd stopped, she'd look at me and say "what?". I'd just say "we're not married (or I'm not your ex husband), and you won't talk to me like we are (I am). When you're ready to get out of marriage mode, let me know". If her response was anything other than "I'm sorry" or some variation thereof, I'd remove myself from the room until she acknowledged she'd messed up. If she accepted it right away, I'd just say something about "I don't take you for granted, I don't ever talk to you like that, and I expect the same from you...I won't have that type of relationship where we talk to each other like that", and then I'd drop it completely as soon as she understood, and we'd continue our evening. Passed on several levels (set the boundary, didn't retaliate, no anger. Just calm reasoning, a willingness to "walk away" from her for bad behavior, and a boundary that I'd not tolerate it).
> 
> Acting unreasonable and seeing how he responds. Does he let it go? React with overt and undue anger? Or does he calmly put and end to it?
> 
> Making hurtful comments. "My last boyfriend was huge and screwed me so good!". Does the target of the test cry or whine? Mope about? Throw things? Or does her instead calmly set a boundry that such comments will not be tolerated.
> 
> Flirting with others. She openly flirts when she knows he's not okay with it. How does he respond? Cry and whine about it, stomp off and mope about, or set a boundary with her? What does he do if she crosses that boundary she was just warned about?
> 
> They are basically all about "testing" your confidence, boundaries, and manhood. To see how you stack up. If you're genuine. If you're a guy she can respect.
> 
> Some of these (like snarky or hurtful comments) can be a conscious act, or subconscious. If it's a conscious act, she's waiting for the response. If it's subconscious, she may not even realize she did anything, but you can bet if her behavior is not checked, the behavior will likely escalate over the course of the relationship as it becomes more comfortable or people get complacent. And she'll start losing respect for a man who won't stand up for himself as a result. And it's a snowball effect. Once that respect is lost, the chit tests will come harder and faster until she knows you're not a man that will stand up for much of anything, let alone himself or her.


Wow, what ever happened to just being nice to one another, instead of constantly trying to win some non-existent argument? Seems like an awful lot of work to me, OP, and not all women are guilty of using the sh!t test. I know I'm not. Frankly, if I were a man, I'd never put up with that kind of crap off a woman. At what point do you say "this is a h!t test" or is she just a b!tch?


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## Feelingdown

AFEH

What your describing sounds like a generic test that gets thrown at every married couple and how they come through that test depends on how each invididual deals with it.

I just don't see the link between a clash of values and beliefs with any sort of test imposed by one partner to the other. Even if it's subconscious it's manipulative and underhand. 

Sorry if what you've said has completely flown over my head, I won't lie, I found it a little difficult to comprehend what you are driving at.


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## BjornFree

interesting.......but why do they do it???


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## Feelingdown

CandieGirl said:


> Wow, what ever happened to just being nice to one another, instead of constantly trying to win some non-existent argument? Seems like an awful lot of work to me, OP, and not all women are guilty of using the sh!t test. I know I'm not. Frankly, if I were a man, I'd never put up with that kind of crap off a woman. At what point do you say "this is a h!t test" or is she just a b!tch?


Exactly. Reading that you would think you're reading about warring work colleagues or something along those lines, rather than husband and wife.

I would HATE to be in a marriage that turns into some sort of game.


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## Cosmos

Feelingdown said:


> Exactly. Reading that you would think you're reading about warring work colleagues or something along those lines, rather than husband and wife.
> 
> I would HATE to be in a marriage that turns into some sort of game.


I agree. It would be like living in a war zone where one never felt safe and relaxed. I couldn't live like that!


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## AFEH

Feelingdown said:


> AFEH
> 
> What your describing sounds like a generic test that gets thrown at every married couple and how they come through that test depends on how each invididual deals with it.
> 
> I just don't see the link between a clash of values and beliefs with any sort of test imposed by one partner to the other. Even if it's subconscious it's manipulative and underhand.
> 
> Sorry if what you've said has completely flown over my head, I won't lie, I found it a little difficult to comprehend what you are driving at.


A shet test often arises out of a person’s Shadow (as per Carl Jung). When a person is introspective, looking at their good side, their Sun that shines out of them when they reflect on what a Nice Guy they are, they can’t see their shadow because it’s behind them. It’s in their Shadow, in the deepest parts of their psyche where their bad, shet testing behaviour is. The more of a Nice Guy a man is, the brighter their Sun and therefore the deeper and darker their Shadow.

Some may not like what I say next. It’s often said by family and friends of a mass murderer “But he was a really Nice Guy!”. I know the truth in that because my BIL was a mass murderer.



What’s happened here is that the Nice Guys have turned around and looked into their Shadow and perhaps seen it for the very first time. The Manning up Process is in Jungian terms “working on our Shadow side”. Because it’s not until we can actually look at and see into our Shadow that we can work on it. It’s in our Shadow that the real opportunities for growth exists.


What makes a Nice Guy turn around look into their Shadow? Pain, very deep pain. Where do they get that very deep pain from, what’s the source of it? His wife’s shet tests caused by his Nice Guy's values, beliefs and the behaviour that arises from them.


Of course we all have shet testing behaviour of our own independent of and not as a reaction to our partner’s shet testing behaviour, unless of course we’re Mr or Mrs Perfect. Mr or Mrs Perfect will not have a Shadow. And there in lies the problem. That’s how a man gets to be a Nice Guy! They cannot see their shadow or are in denial of its existence. That latter is my wife!


----------



## AFEH

Feelingdown said:


> Exactly. Reading that you would think you're reading about warring work colleagues or something along those lines, rather than husband and wife.
> 
> I would HATE to be in a marriage that turns into some sort of game.


Welcome to the world of the Very Very Nice Guy!!!

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/53455-am-i-making-too-much-nothing.html


By your own experience and definition you have and you are tolerating a shet testing wife.



You have a massive difference in a value and belief that’s already wounded you and so exceptionally soon after your entry into marriage. And here you are on TAM posting about it!




You problem is caused by a huge difference in your Love Languages and that will be the source of many a shet testing behaviour from both of you.


Believe it or not you have Love Languages that are massively different. These love languages are at the very core of our value and belief system and as such are exceptionally difficult to see, let alone come to terms with and work towards changing.


Until of course you Inspire, Motivate and Lead your way out of being such a Nice Guy and into living in a happy and healthy marriage!


----------



## Feelingdown

AFEH said:


> Welcome to the world of the Very Very Nice Guy!!!
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/53455-am-i-making-too-much-nothing.html
> 
> 
> By your own experience and definition you have and you are tolerating a shet testing wife.
> 
> You have a massive difference in a value and belief that’s already wounded you and so exceptionally soon after your entry into marriage. And here you are on TAM posting about it!
> 
> You problem is caused by a huge difference in your Love Languages and that will be the source of many a shet testing behaviour. Until of course you Inspire, Motivate and Lead your way out of being such a Nice Guy and into living in a happy and healthy marriage!


Sorry, but that's nonsense. I don't have a shet testing wife, I have/had insecurity issues that I'm trying to work on, and simply have a wife that didn't do anything for my birthday until a few days later.

There is no game being played here, no politics, just small character flaws that we both need to work on and we have both agreed to work on. I have a very happy and healthy marriage, thank you. 

I like TAM, if you're looking for advice on anything it's a great place to discover early on in marriage. But the constant labels and complex theories to explain behaviour that instantly get thrown around to fit virtually every situation is rather tiresome. 

I'm a very very nice guy? Well thank you. Being a very very nice guy has gotten me loads of great freinds, has made me a hit with my inlaws, has gotten me a beautiful wife who I've got a great marraige with, a great job with colleagues I get along with and a family who I get along with great and have no issues with at all. Maybe if I actually get any real problems and issues in life, I'll check out one of these books that get suggested every other second and adjust my behaviour.


----------



## AFEH

Feelingdown said:


> Exactly. Reading that you would think you're reading about warring work colleagues or something along those lines, rather than husband and wife.
> 
> I would HATE to be in a marriage that turns into some sort of game.


What are you going to do come your wife’s next birthday? Give her your love like you did on her last birthday, or withhold your love by giving her what you didn’t got for yours?

Your wife shet tested you on your birthday. Will you be resentful and punish her, will you raise the stakes and by an act of covert aggression hurt her by not getting her present or shet test her in revenge in some other way?

Have you thought that your wife may be a passive aggressive and that she deliberately hurt you because after you gave her your love to her with “Gifts” that she withheld love from you by not giving you Gifts?



You are still at the very idealistic stage of your life and your marriage. You will find ALL of human behaviour within marriage the excellent, the good, the average, the bad, the wicked and the downright evil. Just because you get married doesn’t mean you cease somehow to be human.



Believe me you have yet to discover how good, average or bad your "game" is. Marriage is an exceedingly interesting journey in a man's life.


----------



## AFEH

Feelingdown said:


> Sorry, but that's nonsense. I don't have a shet testing wife, I have/had insecurity issues that I'm trying to work on, and simply have a wife that didn't do anything for my birthday until a few days later.
> 
> There is no game being played here, no politics, just small character flaws that we both need to work on and we have both agreed to work on. I have a very happy and healthy marriage, thank you.
> 
> I like TAM, if you're looking for advice on anything it's a great place to discover early on in marriage. But the constant labels and complex theories to explain behaviour that instantly get thrown around to fit virtually every situation is rather tiresome.
> 
> *I'm a very very nice guy? Well thank you.* Being a very very nice guy has gotten me loads of great freinds, has made me a hit with my inlaws, has gotten me a beautiful wife who I've got a great marraige with, a great job with colleagues I get along with and a family who I get along with great and have no issues with at all. Maybe if I actually get any real problems and issues in life, I'll check out one of these books that get suggested every other second and adjust my behaviour.


Here we go ....... good luck with your journey.


----------



## Feelingdown

AFEH said:


> What are you going to do come your wife’s next birthday? Give her your love like you did on her last birthday, or withhold your love by giving her what you didn’t got for yours?
> 
> Your wife shet tested you on your birthday. Will you be resentful and punish her, will you raise the stakes and by an act of covert aggression hurt her by not getting her present or shet test her in revenge in some other way?
> 
> Have you thought that your wife may be a passive aggressive and that she deliberately hurt you because after you gave her your love to her with “Gifts” that she withheld love from you by not giving you Gifts?
> 
> 
> 
> You are still at the very idealistic stage of your life and your marriage. You will find ALL of human behaviour within marriage the excellent, the good, the average, the bad, the wicked and the downright evil. Just because you get married doesn’t mean you cease somehow to be human.
> 
> 
> 
> Believe me you have yet to discover how good, average or bad your "game" is. Marriage is an exceedingly interesting journey in a man's life.


I'll stick to who I am and treat her like I want to treat the special person in my life. I told her it hurt and she started crying and said sorry and promised she did have something special in the works, which I found out was the case a couple of days later. Infact, her gift (an identical platinum ring and an identical engraving worth nearly £2000 to match and replace the one I lost) was so much better and more thoughtful than my treat for her birthday.

Of course we're human, of course there will be bad times, I'm not naive. I'm not pretending we're in some sort of fairytale land. But that still has nothing to do with playing games, politics and testing the other. Perhaps rather than me being idealistic, you're just scarred by your own experience?


----------



## AFEH

Feelingdown said:


> I'll stick to who I am and treat her like I want to treat the special person in my life. I told her it hurt and she started crying and said sorry and promised she did have something special in the works, which I found out was the case a couple of days later. Infact, her gift (an identical platinum ring and an identical engraving worth nearly £2000 to match and replace the one I lost) was so much better and more thoughtful than my treat for her birthday.
> 
> Of course we're human, of course there will be bad times, I'm not naive. I'm not pretending we're in some sort of fairytale land. But that still has nothing to do with playing games, politics and testing the other. Perhaps rather than me being idealistic, you're just scarred by your own experience?


As a man who got BJs and sex with his wife over 42 years of being with her anytime he wanted, never a forgotten Birthday, Valentines Day, Christmas Day or Anniversary and other gifts from her that any man on the planet would feel truly blessed and privileged to receive, I have absolutely no time, patience or tolerance for a Really Nice Guy a year into his marriage complaining about and criticising his wife for his zero blow jobs and a lack of gifts for his birthday less than a year into his marriage and telling me I don’t know what I’m at!

As I said good luck with your journey.


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## Feelingdown

I never complained about the lack of blow jobs or gifts, I asked for advice about my own actions relating to those issues. Of course you're too busy pushing your labels and theories on me and my threads to bothers noticing that.

Funny how you're unwilling for someone to suggest something about you, yet you think you have me and my life nailed down.

Anyway, this is getting a bit too personal. Good luck with yours too mate.


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## AFEH

You should have Fitness Tested your wife on both of your Love Languages BEFORE you got married. Now that you are testing her after you got married, you find her lacking in two exceedingly important areas for you and that’s why you are here. Is that crazy or what!

You are already in confrontation/disagreement over a deeply held value and belief, in of all things Blow Jobs! A healthy, rewarding mutually enjoyable, desirable and passionate sex life is one of the five or six core, basic ingredients of a healthy and happy marriage! And you are right at the centre of a clash of core values and beliefs over your sex life!

And still you stand high on your idealistic high horse, right up there on the pedestal you’ve put yourself on.

You went into your marriage full of hope that you will get what you need out of it and feel loved because of it. Most of us do. Already after just a year you find your marriage lacking over one of a successful marriage’s core and absolutely essential ingredients, SEX! You’re exceedingly young as yet with a very long way to go.


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## Feelingdown

Are you having a laugh? I don't know whether to take that post seriously or not. Either way, I'm not biting.


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## AFEH

Feelingdown said:


> Are you having a laugh? I don't know whether to take that post seriously or not. Either way, I'm not biting.


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/53659-oral-sex.html


Do you really believe your wife is enjoying you trying to get her to do something she not only doesn’t place in value in or believe in but something she actually dislikes doing?



What if she finds your behaviour and therefore you truly gross, because she finds BJs truly gross and sickening to her? Don’t you think that will hurt her, that for her your need for BJs is a shet test on her?

What if BJs trigger seriously bad memories for her, like PTSD? And put her right back emotionally into her original trauma? Don’t you think the more you go after her to get your need fulfilled, the more she will feel that you are dissatisfied with her and hurting her, shet testing her?



How are you going to get her to do what you want her to do when she doesn’t want to do it? How in your own words are you going to “make it happen”? Or will you leave it all alone and sacrifice your need for BJs and a good sex life in order to keep your wife happy? Will your sacrifice make you happy or will it make you resentful? Which will it be? No playing games, shet testing or fitness testing mind.


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## mina

FeelingDown you are in the minority here, I am afraid. People here who have woken up to the truth can't "unsee" the truth. And the truth is : Nice Guys are Doormats and Doormats get walked on, not respect. 

Women don't have sex with men who aren't men. Women want to have sex with MEN they respect. Women don't have sex with doormats. 

This conversation kind of reminds me of that that one guy in the movie _The Matrix_ who sees the truth but then wants to go back so he can eat steak and drink wine and not have to deal with real life any more. 

I'm a woman and even I can see it clear as day. Most men who are men get it pretty quickly. So the question is: what do you want to be? A man or a doormat?


----------



## strugglinghusband

AFEH said:


> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/53659-oral-sex.html
> 
> 
> Do you really believe your wife is enjoying you trying to get her to do something she not only doesn’t place in value in or believe in but something she actually dislikes doing?
> 
> 
> 
> What if she finds your behaviour and therefore you truly gross, because she finds BJs truly gross and sickening to her? Don’t you think that will hurt her, that for her your need for BJs is a shet test on her?
> 
> What if BJs trigger seriously bad memories for her, like PTSD? And put her right back emotionally into her original trauma? Don’t you think the more you go after her to get your need fulfilled, the more she will feel that you are dissatisfied with her and hurting her, shet testing her?
> 
> 
> 
> How are you going to get her to do what you want her to do when she doesn’t want to do it? How in your own words are you going to “make it happen”? Or will you leave it all alone and sacrifice your need for BJs and a good sex life in order to keep your wife happy? Will your sacrifice make you happy or will it make you resentful? Which will it be? No playing games, shet testing or fitness testing mind.


^^^
This blew me away...core values..if they are different you got a long rough road to hoe.

There myself, thinking of heading down to the John Deere dealer and buying a big ole tractor with a 3 bottom plow.


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## Ten_year_hubby

WorkingOnMe said:


> It's about fitness. A woman wants to know that her man can protect and take care of her. This is her way of finding out. Is he strong enough to stand up to her.


I'm still trying to understand some of the fine points of this concept myself. I have no problem observing the behavior. What I am not 100% clear on is the various internal motivations and feelings attributed to women as the behavior plays out. In particular, I don't exactly understand the connection between the husband's performance on the test and the wife's respect for him. Are we saying that the wife allows her choice of whether or not to be respectful of her husband to be determined solely by the results of these tests?


----------



## Conrad

Ten_year_hubby said:


> I'm still trying to understand some of the fine points of this concept myself. I have no problem observing the behavior. What I am not 100% clear on is the various internal motivations and feelings attributed to women as the behavior plays out. In particular, I don't exactly understand the connection between the husband's performance on the test and the wife's respect for him. Are we saying that the wife allows her choice of whether or not to be respectful of her husband to be determined solely by the results of these tests?


Human beings push boundaries.

It's what they do.

Failing these tests simply guarantees more of them.


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## Ten_year_hubby

Ok, that's pretty straightforward. Does passing the test guarantee less of them?


----------



## Feelingdown

AFEH said:


> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/53659-oral-sex.html
> 
> 
> Do you really believe your wife is enjoying you trying to get her to do something she not only doesn’t place in value in or believe in but something she actually dislikes doing?
> 
> What if she finds your behaviour and therefore you truly gross, because she finds BJs truly gross and sickening to her? Don’t you think that will hurt her, that for her your need for BJs is a shet test on her?
> 
> What if BJs trigger seriously bad memories for her, like PTSD? And put her right back emotionally into her original trauma? Don’t you think the more you go after her to get your need fulfilled, the more she will feel that you are dissatisfied with her and hurting her, shet testing her?
> 
> How are you going to get her to do what you want her to do when she doesn’t want to do it? How in your own words are you going to “make it happen”? Or will you leave it all alone and sacrifice your need for BJs and a good sex life in order to keep your wife happy? Will your sacrifice make you happy or will it make you resentful? Which will it be? No playing games, shet testing or fitness testing mind.


Before you start analysing someones marriage and life, it's pretty vital to get the facts right. I have no need or expectations for BJ's. Its just something I'd like, like an Armani Suit. I'm delighted with my sex life.

Second incorrect assumption you make there is that my wife is a moron who doesn't understand that, 9/10, guys will want a blow job. She knows however that I don't expect it, nor will I ever resent her if she doesn't want to give one, hence we'll be happy either way.

Thirdly, she knows I'm not an arsehole, I'm not demanding anything and I'm not even pestering her about it. Hence, she'll know I'm not shet testing her. 

Lastly, you assume I want to do anything with her that she isn't happy to do. Try having a read through the thread and you see that isn't the case. Infact, you'll see my intention is to find out if it's something she'd like to try. Her reaction to the board game I mentioned in the thread, suggests she isn't completely closed off to the idea.

We done?


----------



## ocotillo

WorkingOnMe said:


> It's about fitness. A woman wants to know that her man can protect and take care of her. This is her way of finding out. Is he strong enough to stand up to her.


That's the theory and I've read that too. 

I think a striking example recently occurred during the Aurora shooting. Three different women have come forward and said that they are alive because their boyfriends shielded them from bullets. All three boyfriends are dead. On the flip-side of the coin, other men turned and ran for the door. One even abandoned his child. 

The "Hero" phenomenon has been studied_ ad nauseaum. _ Personality profiles of recipients of high awards for bravery, like the Congressional Medal of Honor , the various Services Crosses and the Silver Star have been extensively collected, collated and compared by the Department of Defense. Similar studies have been done comparing Germans who resisted the Nazis versus those that did not. 

The personality profile that emerges is actually a subset of the 'Nice guy' sometimes called a Beta Sociopath. This is a person without much of a social conscience, who might be a bank robber, embezzler or worse were it not for the fact that the huge streak of 'Nice guy' trammels his sociopathic tendencies and channels them towards altruistic risk taking.


----------



## Feelingdown

mina said:


> FeelingDown you are in the minority here, I am afraid. People here who have woken up to the truth can't "unsee" the truth. And the truth is : Nice Guys are Doormats and Doormats get walked on, not respect.
> 
> Women don't have sex with men who aren't men. Women want to have sex with MEN they respect. Women don't have sex with doormats.
> 
> This conversation kind of reminds me of that that one guy in the movie _The Matrix_ who sees the truth but then wants to go back so he can eat steak and drink wine and not have to deal with real life any more.
> 
> I'm a woman and even I can see it clear as day. Most men who are men get it pretty quickly. So the question is: what do you want to be? A man or a doormat?


Nice guys are doormats? 

How did you come to that conclusion? Saying yes to something you don't want to do or think is wrong doesn't make you a nice guy, just makes you a moron. I'm a nice guy who likes to please his wife, not a moron who does everything she wants.

I'm pretty sure I am a man, at least I was the last time I checked. I have sex around 3-5 times a week on average which I'm perfectly happy with thank you. But if I want more then I'll be sure to turn into an arsehole.


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## Conrad

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Ok, that's pretty straightforward. Does passing the test guarantee less of them?


Since insecurity usually brings them on, passing them helps your partner feel secure, so they tend to decrease over time.

You're usually too busy laughing and having sex to notice, however.


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## mina

Dear Mr. Nice Guy: Good luck!! :-D


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## mina

I have a small herd of horses and they do this all day long. Jockeying for position from horse #1 (leader) to horse #6 (bottom.) Horse #2 tests horse #1 all day long: what happens if I put my ears back, will he move away? what happens if I move into his space, will he yield to me? enough wins under his belt and horse #2 becomes horse #1 ... they all do it, all day long. Very interesting to watch.


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## rj700

kag123 said:


> I have read the four pages of response to my question and still don't really feel that I fully understand this concept.
> 
> I still stand by my original thinking, that fitness testing is a thing of highschool games and immaturity.
> 
> I will be honest and say that I have not read the book MMSL, which is where I assume this idea originated? I will pick up this book and read it myself in the near future. I see it recommended around here a lot, which kind of scares me a bit if this is the take home concept from the book...that men must always be ready to jump at these mind games that women constantly subject them to.
> 
> I do think some people (men and women alike) play mind games on purpose for various reasons.
> 
> However, I think there are also a lot of women and men who prefer to put themselves above that type of thing and operate in a more open and honest fashion. I like to think that I am one of them. If these games are plated subconsciously...then I cannot be immune to subjecting my H to these tests I suppose. However I cannot remember the last time I asked my husband a trick question to make him squirm or set him up to fail in some way. Why would I do that? If I have a problem with him, I will tell him right there on the spot. If I am in a sh!tty mood, I will admit to it right there on the spot and ask him to give me a few minutes to collect myself. If I make a mistake, I apologize. If I disagree with him, I give him solid reasoning why and we discuss it.
> 
> To say that women are maliciously walking around throwing a carrot in front of man and trying to make him jump for it is just not indicative of every one of us. It hurts to see that a whole gender has been cast in this light and that a lot more men are "drinking the kool aid" buying into this idea.
> 
> To be constantly suspicious of your partners intent and looking for hidden meaning behind their every action just doesn't seem like a healthy place to be growing a marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Kag, I tend to agree with you. But many people are here at TAM with problems, issues - some small, some big, some recurring. I think the shet/fitness test is an attempt to explain behavior in a _dysfunctional_ relationship - not in a normal one. And for those here looking for answers, understanding the "why's" of a behavior go a long way towards addressing it.


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## mina

I can speak for myself - I have a totally normal, average relationship with a DH I love and respect. Because I am a strong independent woman I was st!t testing him and I didn't even know it. I didn't realize it until I become conscious of it and stopped myself from doing it. He was passing them all (I didn't realize that either) and because I was so bent on being the leader of our little herd of two I kept doing it anyway. Things were a bit testy for a while there. Much better now!! 

Therefore I disagree with the statement that it's something that happens only in a dysfunctional relationship. I don't think you can categorize who will and who will not sh!t test ... I think you need to be conscious as to what it is and see if you observe it happening in your relationship.


----------



## rj700

Fair enough. Generalities (my bad) never apply to everyone. I think it is the difference between being aware of a particular type of behavior vs over analyzing every little thing, question, request, demand to determine if it is, in fact, a test.

And in full disclosure, I'm not sure there is such a thing as a normal relationship and I couldn't really put myself in that class if it existed. So perhaps I should have used "discord" instead of dysfunctional.


----------



## mina

well in my case there was no discord either. I just want to be in charge. I am in charge of a lot of stuff at work at home on the farm at my local saddle club and on and on. I like being the leader. I guess I thought I could be the leader at home, too. 

what I didn't realize was that I wouldn't really like it if I was the leader, esp if it meant that my DH would be "below" me on the pecking order. 

thank goodness he's a real man and a leader. I know better now.

and p.s. whoever posted that link earlier - it explains sh!t testing to a T including a real life example that is very clear.


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## donny64

What I see a lot of here are the unbelieving women (and a nice guy or two) thinking all of this is something it's not. Making it more than what it is. And not believing this is how it really works.

It's not "games". It's not "warring". Especially in the later stages of the relationship, it often has little to do with conscious testing of your mate (early in the dating process they come fast and furious sometimes though).

It is all about qualifying someone you're interested in. And setting and keeping boundaries. Everyone does that, and every relationship needs boundaries.

To those that say this is a game and about warring.... Responding smartly and confidently to these "challenges" has kept me in a marriage where we have these things....

No significant arguing. We have discussions. Sometimes we're mad at each other, but it does not escelate into yelling. (Why? Because that was one of her first tests she threw at me. She yelled. (That's what she was used to in her previous marriage. Yelling. All the time. At each other.) I told her I wouldn't have it, and told her to leave and come back when she could discuss it like a grown up. I did so very calmly and matter of factly. She left in a huff saying "call me when you're ready to talk". I never called. She showed up the next day with tail between legs. She's not yelled since.)

No yelling...ever (well, once when she crossed over big boundary for me...only time I've ever yelled at her...and that was on the phone).
No name calling. Not a single time.
No pent up frustration or resentments.
Plenty of great sex. She initiates as much or more than I do. And we're having it on average 5 times a week.
Plenty of laughs, fun, and a near continual excitement to see the other one walk through the door.
Plenty of affection.
Plenty of smiles.
A lot of doing "small things" for each other. All kinds of things. I open every door for her...still. Car doors, house doors, etc.
I protect her. When we're out, she is my primary concern. When she's with me she will be safe.
She cooks for me, I cook for her.
We have a blast, day in and day out, and LOVE living together.

She gets treated like a queen...right up to and until the point she stops treating me like a king. When that happens, she gets called on it. Immediately. Calmly and without anger or insult, but immediately. I treat her very well. I expect the same consideration. When that stops, we have a problem. And it will be addressed on the front end, and not the back end. I'm not steering this horse (the relationship) by the tail after it's already out of control.

Now, this is with a woman who in our early stages said "I feel like I can't do anything right with you" because I'd call her on anything she did that upset me. I explained I'd not allow resenment to build, and if I was upset about something, I wasn't going to rug-sweep it, and she was going to hear about it. If it got to be too much for her, we could end it.

I also NEVER held onto anything once it was immediately resolved. I returned right back to our normal behavior.

This is also a woman who had a terrible previous marriage. No communication, no sex, anger, yelling, resentment... you name it. No passion. If and when there was sex, she'd close her eyes and just get it over with. Once every few months or so at best.

She cannot believe the transformation of her life from her previous marriage to this one. And I HAD TO lead her on how to get here. Because she had the learned behavior of her previous marriage she did not let go of for a while. She didn't know any better, and nobody bothered to teach her. I had to show her that would never be okay with me. It stopped.

She has said to me again recently that "I could never go back to something like that (previous marriage). We are in such a constant state of evenness, happiness and calmness, I never thought possible. I can't believe I ever lived like that. I've never been so happy and wanted to be with someone so much in my life as I do now. I never thought feeling like this was possible, or that it would be so easy."

Does that sound like games and warring? It may not have been easy for her in the beginning, but it was far easier than the alternative (me being a "nice guy" and putting up with crap, trying to be "understanding", all the while putting myself in a state of resentment and anger. Nope, not this guy. Been there, done that, it DIDN'T WORK....EVER, in the long term).

"Understanding" is resolved for REAL problems she can't control. A health issue. A family issue. A work issue. For me there is no "being understanding" because she "had a bad day" and snapped at me as a result. I'll not be understanding of someone taking me for granted, making me a target, and treating me badly because of some outside influence, or just because she's getting complacent. If and where it occurs, it STOPS right there, or she can leave.

She tested me fairly often in the beginning. Mostly she didn't even realize she was doing it. The tests are few and far between now. Sometimes I feel she throws one out there every now and then just to see if I'm still the same guy I always have been. I am. And she's a damn happy, satisfied, and content person as a result. As am I.

The road to no sex, an unappreciative, manipulative, angry, complacent wives is littered with the charred remains of "nice guys" and guys who have repeatedly failed these tests (or to stand up for themselves, which is really what this is all about).


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## mina

"She gets treated like a queen...right up to and until the point she stops treating me like a king." or as my DH put it last night: "I love you, you're my queen ... <smile> and of course, that makes me king." 

right-o. just right.


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## Starstarfish

This idea that because all women indeed are "testing" all the time, the only way to prove dominance is to "put them in their place" - so they can "return with their tail between their legs." This kind of labeling complete with the alpha/beta labels makes me think we aren't talking about two functional adult human being but some kind of animal. We even discuss how animals use this behavior. 

Are we animals, or human beings? 

Case in point, I don't want to bash on the poster above me, but there's an underlying obvious thread of disrespect there. You inferring your wife is a child for being verbal with her emotions, because adults never yell. You telling yourself that she was ignorant of proper adult interactions without you and just -had- to be taught the "correct way." And now of course, she's the most happy, appreciative, sex-loving wife a man could want. She suddenly transformed into a Stepford wife. 

After of course you treated her like a petulant child, you made her feel totally unworthy and unwanted because you constantly "called her out" on anything you didn't like. (Because if you "swept it under the rug" she'd transform into a cold, sexless harpy.) You were passing out s$%^ tests yourself each time you set up barriers for "proper adult behavior", each time you informed her that she'd behave the way you wanted, or she was free to leave. Sorry, that doesn't sound like the foundation for a truly healthy relationship, as much as it seems like it on the surface, and as "functional" as it might be. That sounds like a long-term mindf$%#. 

Do you still pull out the threat of leaving her/her having to leave when she doesn't do something you like? Or - is that a short term thing? Because I think nothing says - let's base a relationship on trust by utilizing the underlying fear of abandonment most women have to your advantage.

I think it could all be summed up with this, from a woman's perspective after going through this process, from another poster:



> thank goodness he's a real man and a leader. I know better now.


That seems like drinking some kind of kool-aid to me. Or like a bad page out of Fifty Shades of Grey, if you are treated like the sub long enough, you'll learn to enjoy it, realize your life was wrong and totally misguided before then, and then - everything will be roses and sunshine and sex.


----------



## Gaia

Ok donny... if this helps some guys... then good for them.. but I really think that slapping the... "this is a test" label on things such as an arguement esculating into a shouting match is a bit odd. I don't see that as the woman testing the man or vice versa.. considering both parties are responsible for letting their emotions get out of control. It just seems to me that all that happened was.. you both found a better way to "handle" your emotions and therefore helped eachother cope with the situation better. All this is supposedly to help men understand the FEMALE psych right? Well why not listen to us when we tell you how we are seeing the situation? We .. well some of us... don't see this as a test nor is it intended to be. Now... perhaps there are some women out there who do this to test a man and if that IS the case... then it would essentially be a game to that sort of woman.. would it not?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hookares

A **** test is used by wives and even girl friends to see how complacent a man has become. If he scores low according to his male friends, he has scored very high in the women's view.
I now watch for signs of these "games" when with the ladies whom I now socialize. Once I see two signs, the party is over and I move on to a different flavor.


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## Gaia

Oh geeze... this "girlfriend" doesn't throw out tests at her man to see if he is complacent or not so I disagree with you there. Maybe some wives/girlfriends do.. but not all of us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mina

"if you are treated like the sub long enough, you'll learn to enjoy it, realize your life was wrong and totally misguided before then..."

so sorry, you are so wrong. I am totally independent, strong and capable. I run a horse farm, organize and handle many multitudes of small children on ponies (and their parents) twice a month at our Games clinics, am a major force at my local saddle club, have a high visibility IT job with a lot of super genius intellectual high-peformers. I can also, in general, do anything my DH can do and in some things I do them better. 

doesn't mean he can't be King and I can't be Queen. I don't have to be submissive or lose ANY of myself to be Queen. Queen is still a pretty high rank! 

All it means is I respect and appreciate my DH for what and who he is. And how I behave illustrates that.

To go back to the original post: Queens get their robes when they realize there is no need to sh!t test any more. And life becomes quite Royal.


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## Machiavelli

WorkingOnMe said:


> Not as long as you cop a feel in the process.


:lol:By the way, that answer is not a joke. It's dead serious.


----------



## donny64

Starstarfish said:


> This idea that because all women indeed are "testing" all the time, the only way to prove dominance is to "put them in their place" - so they can "return with their tail between their legs." This kind of labeling complete with the alpha/beta labels makes me think we aren't talking about two functional adult human being but some kind of animal. We even discuss how animals use this behavior.
> 
> Are we animals, or human beings?
> 
> Case in point, I don't want to bash on the poster above me, but there's an underlying obvious thread of disrespect there. You inferring your wife is a child for being verbal with her emotions, because adults never yell. You telling yourself that she was ignorant of proper adult interactions without you and just -had- to be taught the "correct way." And now of course, she's the most happy, appreciative, sex-loving wife a man could want. She suddenly transformed into a Stepford wife.
> 
> After of course you treated her like a petulant child, you made her feel totally unworthy and unwanted because you constantly "called her out" on anything you didn't like. (Because if you "swept it under the rug" she'd transform into a cold, sexless harpy.) You were passing out s$%^ tests yourself each time you set up barriers for "proper adult behavior", each time you informed her that she'd behave the way you wanted, or she was free to leave. Sorry, that doesn't sound like the foundation for a truly healthy relationship, as much as it seems like it on the surface, and as "functional" as it might be. That sounds like a long-term mindf$%#.
> 
> Do you still pull out the threat of leaving her/her having to leave when she doesn't do something you like? Or - is that a short term thing? Because I think nothing says - let's base a relationship on trust by utilizing the underlying fear of abandonment most women have to your advantage.
> 
> I think it could all be summed up with this, from a woman's perspective after going through this process, from another poster:
> 
> 
> 
> That seems like drinking some kind of kool-aid to me. Or like a bad page out of Fifty Shades of Grey, if you are treated like the sub long enough, you'll learn to enjoy it, realize your life was wrong and totally misguided before then, and then - everything will be roses and sunshine and sex.


You understand the INTENT of what I'm saying, yet you want to turn it into some kind of male chauvanist attack on women in general or my wife. Like I don't "respect" her, or treat her like a "petulant child". Well, I do respect her, enourmously. But yes, if she acts like a child, she'll get treated like one. Period. Or inasmuch at least that she can leave, or I'll remove myself from the situation. And if it continues, I will remove myself from it permanently. I REFUSE to live with a woman like that again. Just as my W refuses to live with an uncommunicative, unappreciative, angry prik again. If I can't live up to what she wants, I fully expect she'll leave as well.

I respect my W like no other. For you to insinuate otherwise because I won't tolerate yelling in my house, and had to help her learn how to cope with issues without doing so, and have constructive, non-damaging communication, is so far from the truth it's not even funny. 

I suppose I could have put up with that crap, and I could be her ex husband re-incarnate. Or she could be my exW. She could yell and call me names. I could yell back. Hell, maybe even throw a few things as they were known to do. Yeah, that's respectful. Better to let things snowball into that, rather than nip it in the bud on the front end.

There is no "mind phuck" going on in our house. The only phucking going on is in the bedroom....and on the couch...in the kitchen, etc. 

She's never been made to feel unworthy or unwanted. But I will tell her when her _behavior _is such. And if it is, she has a choice. Change it or see the consequences of not doing so. Sorry that's not sensitive enough for some of the ladies or "nice guys" here, but it is just the way it is. I've lived that life before, as has she. I will NEVER do it again.



> Do you still pull out the threat of leaving her/her having to leave when she doesn't do something you like?


You bet. If it is a major boundary, like she crossed not long ago? Yes. It changes, or she leaves. There is no in between. Now if it's a minor thing, I'm obviously not leaving, unless the behavior continues, and snowballs. When that happens, she's going to be put on notice that I won't live like that.



> Because I think nothing says - let's base a relationship on trust by utilizing the underlying fear of abandonment most women have to your advantage.


Abandonment? Oh, that's right, she must be a victim of something, and should her behavior be not okay with me, and I decide to leave because she doesn't change her behavior, it's now "abandonment"? That is not "abandonment". That is her making a choice to stay, or leave. To conduct herself as we agreed early on we each would. To continue to be the people we each fell in love with, and not take each other for granted. She doesn't HAVE TO be okay with what I want, but she doesn't have to stick around if she can't be that either.


What is strange about all of the above is this....my W has become the same way (once she got out of a bad marriage and finally realized what she'd been subjecting herself to). Very independant, very strong, self sufficient, and knows what she wants in a relationship. I fully believe that should I not provide her with that, that she WILL leave as well. I don't FEAR that, but I do REALIZE that. And I fully BELIEVE it. And I like the fact that she can and will do so if I start showing my azz or getting out of line. I do not want a co-dependant woman in my life ever again. She's here because she WANTS to be, not NEEDS to be. If she no longer wants to be here, I don't want her here. 

I don't see any of that as games or mind phucks.

And finally yes, when she yells, I tell her that it is not okay, and she leaves with a parting shot of "call me when you want to talk", that ladies, IS A TEST. Why? Because she didn't want to leave. But she wanted me to chase her. She wanted to feel justified in her actions, even when she knew she was not. If I had followed her, begged her to come back, she'd have played hard to get, acted pizzed off, and would be wanting me to kiss her azz. And then she'd KNOW that she could yell any time she wanted to, because I'd put up with it. Not only put up with it, but reward her by chasing her as a result. 

She knew she was wrong...and yet she walked, with the challenge of "call me". THAT is as big a "test" as there is out there ladies and gents. She did not mean it to be, but make no mistake, I was being graded somewhere in her mind, and how I responded has a GREAT deal to do with how she values me and views me.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Machiavelli said:


> :lol:By the way, that answer is not a joke. It's dead serious.


Yes. I was completely serious. I could write a couple paragraphs on why, but the bottom line is that I wasn't kidding.


----------



## Starstarfish

I didn't doubt that you might excel in your work/volunteer life Mina. I don't doubt you do exceedingly well. 

However, when adult women start throwing around the phrase "how I behave," something seems off to me. Would your husband say the same thing? Does he "test" himself to see if he is behaving? Has he internalized the same check list? Which in your case, perhaps he has. In which case, awesome, count me corrected. 

But most of the time, the alpha/beta, king/queen, captain/first mate thing seems to hinge on the idea that women need to be kept in check (otherwise they just get out of control) and need to be stopped from being "sh%7 testers." "Ovary busting" to the extreme focusing on the idea that women need to be kept under control or they just go wild, they are naturally vindictive and their interactions always have hidden motives. 

This whole thing seems to be, as others have expressed it, caught in placing easy labels on behaviors. Once you become aware of this "sh#! testing" phenomenon, you can every retroactively examine all of the behavior of your SO and see it had a hidden meaning. The only thing I'm surprised that hasn't been mentioned is a healthy dose of "penis envy." 

Normal human interactions based on that leader/assistant structure don't have this "sh$6 testing" idea. Pardon being a Star Trek nerd for a moment, but - whenever Riker asked a question or offered a strong disagreement to something, did Picard ponder, "Oh, he must be sh%t testing" me in front of the rest of the crew, I better stomp that thing down? I better man up and keep my nuts." Or did he accept that his "First Mate" had something valuable to offer, or a reason he disagreed? Even if he ultimately disagreed, did he imagine everything must be said with an ulterior motive?

No. So - I don't see how you can have an actual functional relationship, regardless of who is the "alpha" if you constantly have in the back of your mind that a portion of what your SO says/asks is irrelevant and dismissible as drivel?


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## Conrad

>>Are we animals, or human beings?<<

We're both.

Don't forget it.


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## Lyris

It's boundary pushing. It's seeing what do I have to do, what can I get away with, sometimes it's how little can I do and still keep you here/keep you happy.

I don't think it's exclusive to women at all. And I don't believe it stems from some kind of unconscious need to test a man's ability to provide and protect. 

In that birthday example a previous poster gave, yeah, that was a boundary push. The fact that she burst into tears when you brought it up shows she totally knew she was trying to get away with doing as little as possible and hoped you'd ignore it. Hopefully, if she's a decent, aware person she will resolve to do better next year and do better.

People are lazy and easily get complacent. Why would anyone put in the work to meet someone else's needs, year after year, decade after decade if there was no penalty for not doing so, and their own needs continued to be met?


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## Matt1720

Conrad said:


> >>Are we animals, or human beings?<<
> 
> We're both.
> 
> Don't forget it.



_Why must I feel like that
Why must I chase the cat
Nothin' but the dog in me_


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## Conrad

Matt1720 said:


> _Why must I feel like that
> Why must I chase the cat
> Nothin' but the dog in me_


As one of my mentors on this board puts it:

You own a dog.

You feed it.

You shelter it.

You love it.

Dog thinks, "You must be God!"


You own a cat.

You feed it.

You shelter it.

You love it.

Cat thinks, "I must be God!"


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## donny64

> This whole thing seems to be, as others have expressed it, caught in placing easy labels on behaviors. Once you become aware of this "sh#! testing" phenomenon, you can every retroactively examine all of the behavior of your SO and see it had a hidden meaning. The only thing I'm surprised that hasn't been mentioned is a healthy dose of "penis envy."


That's the thing...often times there is no hidden meaning or agenda. It is just an action, and a reaction. BUT, how someone responds will have an impact on the dynamics of the relationship going forward.

And no, this is not isolated to women. Again, as an example...I had an important function I was very excited to attend. She was late. Due to work. We had a major problem hooking up because of phone issues in the area. I did not know this until later, and was quite upset about it. After I knew about it, I was still "butt hurt". That's on me. I gave her a look and made a snarky comment about "I see your phone works fine now..." when I saw her texting. 

I was wrong. I knew it. She called me on it. She said "You know I couldn't help what happened. Don't talk to me like that again."

Was I intentionally "testing" her? No. But I was pushing a boundary and I knew it. And she immediately "checked it" and "put me in my place". Calmly and showing that I was behaving in a way that she was not okay with and would not tolerate. And I freakin' LOVE her for it. Yeah, I was "testing" her, and didn't even realize it.

She did great. I thought about it for a minute, and said "you're right, that was wrong, I'm sorry". And we went on to have a great time. Now, how would things have went had she "failed" this, and yelled at me? Stormed off or started crying? Or appologizing again for something she had no control over just to appease an upset man (who, admittedly, was acting like a bit of an azz)? Who gains more respect? Who demonstrates more self worth? The person who handles it as she did? Or the latter three examples? Self respect and self worth...extremely attractive.

She "aced" a "test" neither one of us knew she was taking. Don't let the easy "test" label fool you into thinking these are always intentional mind games, because most of the time they are not. But the response to these things can have a tremendous impact on the dynamics of a relationship.


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## Starstarfish

For Conrad - okay, so - what's the metaphor there?


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## Matt1720

Listen to George Clinton and get a dog


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## ocotillo

Starstarfish said:


> Are we animals, or human beings?


I've volunteered in the past as an exit counselor for victims of high-control groups. (Long story...)

Humans are not nearly as rational and self-directed as they like to think. Highly intelligent people would not get sucked into cults of that were true. Even advertising would be much less effective if people truly understood what motivates them. 

Having said that though, I don't agree with all that's 'out-there' on the subject of sh!t testing. Obviously people plumb the depths of a prospective mate in subtle ways, but I don't think that every trick question in marriage is quite the same thing.


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## AFEH

strugglinghusband said:


> ^^^
> This blew me away...core values..if they are different you got a long rough road to hoe.
> 
> There myself, thinking of heading down to the John Deere dealer and buying a big ole tractor with a 3 bottom plow.


How many marriages starting out today will actually last “Until Death Us Do Part”? How many will make it until one partner reaches their end of days? 50%? The other 50% will part due to a clash in core values and beliefs.

What is really interesting you’ll find that opposites attract … and then they get married. Yes, people are attracted to one another BECAUSE they are opposite, different at the core part of their psyche in their values and beliefs.

With the Myers Briggs personality types, my wife and I were exactly opposites. That was tremendously bonding and made for an exceptionally passionate and respectful relationship. We both respected and appreciated the strengths the other had that we didn’t. One of the reasons I married my wife was to learn from her parts of her personality I wanted to incorporate into my own.

But then blow me when there’s an empty nest, those differences, those opposite natures actually cause big problems! And that’s a whole other story!


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## thegatewalker

This is amusing nice guys giving other nice guys advice on how to be a ahole. I have been doing this for years wasn't aware of a shirt test. You know how I know I am a ahole because everyone always calls me one that or a ick not sure what one I am
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

Okay. Let me get this straight. Chicks test guys by asking questions or whatnot in order to check his leadership?

I guess it's been a while since I graduated high school.

Seriously, though. I think this is kind of silly. For instance, my wife and I will watch TV together at night. Sometimes, I ask her to grab me a drink. Sometimes, she asks me to grab her a drink. I'm not asking her to test her...I'm asking cuz I want a f'ng drink. I believe she does it for the same reason.

Paralysis by analysis.

That said, I believe there are roles that men and women play in life. Although, women can now be President of the United States. A woman as President/Leader. Then what? Do guys get to be bit**es?


EDIT: just wanted to make sure everyone caught the sarcasm at the end. Okay. Peace out.


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## thegatewalker

WorkingOnMe said:


> Has he ever stood up to you? And later you said to yourself that he was right and you needed to be stood up to? That's a clue that you sh1t tested him and he passed.


Stood up for what if there is something going on that I don't agree with I will say and we talk about it and I feel sorry for anyone who can't talk about things and work it out
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

Personality disorders are obviously a source of shet testing behaviours. From Personality disorders - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

_Cluster A (odd or eccentric disorders)
Not to be confused with Type A personality.
Paranoid personality disorder: characterized by irrational suspicions and mistrust of others.
Schizoid personality disorder: lack of interest in social relationships, seeing no point in sharing time with others, anhedonia, introspection.
Schizotypal personality disorder: characterized by odd behaviour or thinking.

Cluster B (dramatic, emotional or erratic disorders)
Not to be confused with Type B personality.
Antisocial personality disorder: a pervasive disregard for the rights of others, lack of empathy, and (generally) a pattern of regular criminal activity.
Borderline personality disorder: extreme "black and white" thinking, instability in relationships, self-image, identity and behaviour often leading to self-harm and impulsivity. Borderline personality disorder is diagnosed in three times as many females as males.[13]
Histrionic personality disorder: pervasive attention-seeking behaviour including inappropriately seductive behaviour and shallow or exaggerated emotions.
Narcissistic personality disorder: a pervasive pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and a lack of empathy. Characterized by self-importance, preoccupations with fantasies, belief that they are special, including a sense of entitlement and a need for excessive admiration, and extreme levels of jealousy and arrogance.

Cluster C (anxious or fearful disorders)
Avoidant personality disorder: pervasive feelings of social inhibition and social inadequacy, extreme sensitivity to negative evaluation and avoidance of social interaction.
Dependent personality disorder: pervasive psychological dependence on other people.
Obsessive-compulsive personality disorder (not the same as obsessive-compulsive disorder): characterized by rigid conformity to rules, moral codes and excessive orderliness.

Appendix B contains the following disorders.[14]
Depressive personality disorder – is a pervasive pattern of depressive cognitions and behaviours beginning by early adulthood.
Passive-aggressive (negativistic) personality disorder – is a pattern of negative attitudes and passive resistance in interpersonal situations._




Think everybody with a personality disorder is not married? Think again. But aren’t we all just a little paranoid at times? Isn’t everyone capable of thinking in black and white times if even just a couple of times in their life?


The above is in part one of the reasons why I say look to your partner as well as working improving yourself. There may well be some disorder in your marriage that is the source of the shet tests. Not everyone who has a PD is locked up by any means.

And some PD behaviour only raises its head in times of severe stress with say finances, the death of a loved one etc. Some PDs only start after a person is in their midlife and later years. Alzheimer’s is getting worse all the time. In the UK there are nearly a million cases out of 60,000,000 people and it’s massive in the US as well. Sufferers seriously test their loved ones.


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## Starstarfish

Thanks for explaining more, Donny. 

I suppose we all have different answers we are looking for in such interactions. Personally, for me, if I'd had an argument with my husband (whether loud or quiet) and at any point, he'd responded with any inference about me needing to "act like an adult" that would be a major "test fail" in my book. I wouldn't respect him more for "calling me out," I'd consider that majorly disrespectful, as I inferred I definitely think it is. That's "name calling" in my book, as ultimately, it is using insults to get a point across which is the same thing. 

I suppose I expect different dynamics in my relationship.


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## donny64

Starstarfish said:


> Thanks for explaining more, Donny.
> 
> I suppose we all have different answers we are looking for in such interactions. Personally, for me, if I'd had an argument with my husband (whether loud or quiet) and at any point, he'd responded with any inference about me needing to "act like an adult" that would be a major "test fail" in my book. I wouldn't respect him more for "calling me out," I'd consider that majorly disrespectful, as I inferred I definitely think it is. That's "name calling" in my book, as ultimately, it is using insults to get a point across which is the same thing.
> 
> I suppose I expect different dynamics in my relationship.


I don't know if that's exactly what I said, but I said it here, so maybe it was. But, I still don't have too much of a problem with it. She was throwing a hissy fit. I called attention to her behavior. If she doesn't want her maturity questioned, she should not act in immature ways. And that is but one element to the whole conversation and interaction, so.... I asked her to come back when she could act like an adult. That, in my book is not name calling or disrespectful. Maybe I'm wrong...I'm not perfect...but I'll stick with my actions that day.

Like I said, I've never, once, uttered any name towards my W. Even in the absence of name calling, I've never said anything to purposely and maliciously "wound" her. That has never been, and never will be what we're about. If being asked to "act as an adult" is my biggest faux pas in the "name calling or insult area" of this relationship, I'd say I'm doing pretty darn good. If she got hung up on that versus the real issue, well then, she'd be like a good number of other women I've been with....unable to take responsibility for their actions during an argument and trying to deflect focus away from the real issue by picking up one little turd I accidentally threw into her pool of crap and saying "Aha! See! You're throwing turds too, and now *I'M* justifiably angry, I'm gonna latch onto your little accidental turd like a pitbul on an old woman's leg, and USE THIS!", and we'd likely not be where we are. Believe me, I had that with my ex. No matter the issue, she was scorched earth, she must "win" at all costs type of "woman". Sorry or "I was wrong" was not in her vocabulary.


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## AFEH

And then there’s all those people from broken homes and those who witnessed their parents abusing one another, unfortunately they’re pretty good at shet testing too, it’ll be a big part of what they believe marriage to be all about. And then there are those additional unfortunate children sexually abused either inside their home or outside in the church and other places. Those children bullied at school with nobody intervening for them. And of course there’s the drug addicts and those dependent upon alcohol, they’re pretty good at shet testing too.


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## thegatewalker

You can call a d!ck a duck pickle whatever but an the end of the day it is still is a d!ck.
The sh!t test is just some stupid game and if my mate would disresepect me like that then we would have never gotten together this has nothing to do with any disorders it has to do with how you treat your loved one. This all sounds like a power struggle instead of a partnership.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mina

Starstarfish: I am a MAJOR Trek fan. This is a Great Example! 

The big difference between people who sh!t test and people who don't is that one set doesn't get the the relationship between the Captain and the First Officer and the other one does. 

The ones who sh!t test are still trying to be Captain. That's usually the woman sh!t testing the man. They BEHAVE that way because they believe they can test or otherwise shame/belittle/demand/whine the Captain into relinquishing his position. The little joke is that if the man does that the woman no longer respects him and the relationship falls apart (in any one of millions of ways.)

The point is: the woman wants the man to pass the sh!t test and show his Captain capabilities. The day she realizes that she can make an awesome First Officer and support him as Captain she doesn't need the test any more. 

Riker and Picard knew their places by virtue of their rank in Star Fleet. Riker had no reason to sh!t test Picard. They didn't have to test each other to get their rank, it was part of the hierarchy they were provided at Star Fleet.


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## SomedayDig

AFEH...I hate to break your last post up, but I'm gonna have to confess to doing just that.

I'm in the CWI section, so if ya's wanna read more about my story - it's there.

I don't do the testing stuff with my wife. I haven't ever felt a need to do it in any way.

My biological father cheated on my Mom. He left when I was 3 and I never saw him again. She married a dirt bag who adopted my brother and I and I was subjected to battery and emotional abuse from him for a decade or so. In the middle of this, I was sexually abused by a babysitter from age 8 - 11. In high school I was bullied because it was the 80's and I liked punk music but the jocks thought I was a ***** cuz I didn't play sports.

I don't test anyone. I don't want to. I honestly don't care to.

Should I be?


----------



## AFEH

SomedayDig said:


> AFEH...I hate to break your last post up, but I'm gonna have to confess to doing just that.
> 
> I'm in the CWI section, so if ya's wanna read more about my story - it's there.
> 
> I don't do the testing stuff with my wife. I haven't ever felt a need to do it in any way.
> 
> My biological father cheated on my Mom. He left when I was 3 and I never saw him again. She married a dirt bag who adopted my brother and I and I was subjected to battery and emotional abuse from him for a decade or so. In the middle of this, I was sexually abused by a babysitter from age 8 - 11. In high school I was bullied because it was the 80's and I liked punk music but the jocks thought I was a ***** cuz I didn't play sports.
> 
> I don't test anyone. I don't want to. I honestly don't care to.
> 
> Should I be?


Well that makes you another one of the Perfect People here!

And you are obviously not alone, because there are seemingly lots of perfect people here, good for you! I am wondering who is going to be the Champion of the Perfect People! The most perfect of all the Perfect people! Maybe we should have a competition and design three medals, Gold, Silver and Bronze.

But wait a minute, that would mean one person is more prefect than the other. How can that be?


Joking apart, well done for getting yourself through such a crappy start in life.


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## SomedayDig

But I told you initially that I posted in the CWI section, therefore one of us had an affair. Hence, our marriage is faaaarrrr from perfect.

My point is nothing in life...nothing at ALL is one size fits all. Some might call it a sh-t test. Others might call it asking a question. What someone sees as a manipulative power play, another might see as being "Alpha".

I see that a lot of this stuff began with the sudden onset in the late 90's of a proliferation of e-books. Written by guys like you and me. Trying to make a buck and capitalizing on "Beta" males by saying they'd teach them to be "Alpha".

Show me in your local library any book dedicated to anything of the sort with a date earlier than 1999. I would be almost willing to bet it will be non-existent.

But thank you for the compliment.


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## AFEH

mina said:


> Starstarfish: I am a MAJOR Trek fan. This is a Great Example!
> 
> The big difference between people who sh!t test and people who don't is that one set doesn't get the the relationship between the Captain and the First Officer and the other one does.
> 
> The ones who sh!t test are still trying to be Captain. That's usually the woman sh!t testing the man. They BEHAVE that way because they believe they can test or otherwise shame/belittle/demand/whine the Captain into relinquishing his position. The little joke is that if the man does that the woman no longer respects him and the relationship falls apart (in any one of millions of ways.)
> 
> The point is: the woman wants the man to pass the sh!t test and show his Captain capabilities. The day she realizes that she can make an awesome First Officer and support him as Captain she doesn't need the test any more.
> 
> Riker and Picard knew their places by virtue of their rank in Star Fleet. Riker had no reason to sh!t test Picard. They didn't have to test each other to get their rank, it was part of the hierarchy they were provided at Star Fleet.


Different types of people have different ways of getting what they want out of their life. My wife was by no means a leader, basically because she didn’t want that type of responsibility. She had a lot of the qualities managers would see in her such that she was asked to lead in the various places she worked but always and unfailingly turned offers of promotion down.

I was the ambitious one and my ambitions took us into different countries for my work and different places in the UK. Sometimes she wanted to go, sometimes she didn’t and the latter were some testing times. But where we did go we always ended up in the house my wife wanted after looking at so many.

I have fond memories that at I chuckle at even now when I write this of sitting down in a living room in a quite time on my own with a glass of malt in my hand three months or so after moving in thinking “How the feck did I get into this house?”. And then I’d replay the whole selection, negotiating, buying and moving process in my mind thinking did that really happen, or am I in dream? And then pinch myself to see if I was awake.



My wife had her ways about her. She got things done and her way when she wanted it with the most beautiful smile.


----------



## AFEH

SomedayDig said:


> But I told you initially that I posted in the CWI section, therefore one of us had an affair. Hence, our marriage is faaaarrrr from perfect.
> 
> My point is nothing in life...nothing at ALL is one size fits all. Some might call it a sh-t test. Others might call it asking a question. What someone sees as a manipulative power play, another might see as being "Alpha".
> 
> I see that a lot of this stuff began with the sudden onset in the late 90's of a proliferation of e-books. Written by guys like you and me. Trying to make a buck and capitalizing on "Beta" males by saying they'd teach them to be "Alpha".
> 
> Show me in your local library any book dedicated to anything of the sort with a date earlier than 1999. I would be almost willing to bet it will be non-existent.
> 
> But thank you for the compliment.


But you are not all like me at all. In fact you are exceedingly different to me in a most fundamental way! For example you say you don’t shet test. I know for a fact I shet test and yet I don’t have a clear understanding of my Shadow.

I’ll illustrate what I mean. I’m 2.5 years out of a 40 year marriage. I am still reviewing that time, it was heading towards a half century, a long time. Looking back I actually moved my family when our two sons were in their early teens and at critical stages in their education. It upset my younger son so much that I got into the kitchen at 6 in the morning to a note he’d written as a 12 year old complaining about again being moved from the circle of friends he’d made and that because of it he had run away from home. It was on the national radio, police were up in helicopters looking for him, my wife was panicking, our mates and family came over to help to look for him.

I had royally shet tested my family in order to satisfy my career ambitions. Yes, the move was good, the money was good etc. etc. Now I didn’t intend to shet test my family, it was rather an unconscious act of stupidity. Or was it? Work in the area we moved from was 90% or so related to the defence industry and that was undergoing massive layoffs and shutdowns.

Life happens and because life happens shet happens. It’s how we respond to it that counts.


----------



## AFEH

SomedayDig said:


> But I told you initially that I posted in the CWI section, therefore one of us had an affair. Hence, our marriage is faaaarrrr from perfect.
> 
> My point is nothing in life...nothing at ALL is one size fits all. Some might call it a sh-t test. Others might call it asking a question. What someone sees as a manipulative power play, another might see as being "Alpha".
> 
> I see that a lot of this stuff began with the sudden onset in the late 90's of a proliferation of e-books. Written by guys like you and me. Trying to make a buck and capitalizing on "Beta" males by saying they'd teach them to be "Alpha".
> 
> Show me in your local library any book dedicated to anything of the sort with a date earlier than 1999. I would be almost willing to bet it will be non-existent.
> 
> But thank you for the compliment.


I am sorry to hear about your wife’s affair. With hope and a fair wind the two of you will get through it. Both my wife and I had an affair in the first few years of our marriage, we started courting very young. We enjoyed decades of a happy marriage after the affairs.

On the shet testing, your wife has royally shet tested you. It’s a betrayal and for me it’s the betrayal that wounds deeper than anything else. And the better the H, the more in love with your wife you are the deeper and the more painful your wound will be.

You know for a fact you’ve been shet tested when you’ve been wounded and you are feeling emotional pain. That’s how you know you’ve been shet tested.

What do you do about it? How do you manage your painful emotions? How do you process them? Do you meet your wife’s shet test with revengeful shet tests? Do you try and hurt your wife as much, or more than she’s hurt you?

That’s what all this is about. It is about how you handle that shet test. How you respond to it. Do you respond as a man or do you respond as a Man? Forget the Alpha/Beta stuff, for me that’s pretty crappy in the way it’s commonly understood, defined and communicated.

Have you as yet forgiven your wife? Will you forgive your wife? How will you lead, motivate and inspire your wife into a happy and healthy marriage? How will you lead the recovery processes. Will the shet test break your marriage? Or will it be the making of your marriage?

See you are a guy who’s never shet tested a person ever (if you really do believe that than read Awareness: Amazon.co.uk: Anthony De Mello: Books maybe your Shadow will be revealed to you, even if it’s just 5% of it) but here you are, right in the middle as a man handling a shet test in your life.


----------



## AFEH

thegatewalker said:


> You can call a d!ck a duck pickle whatever but an the end of the day it is still is a d!ck.
> The sh!t test is just some stupid game and if my mate would disresepect me like that then we would have never gotten together this has nothing to do with any disorders it has to do with how you treat your loved one. This all sounds like a power struggle instead of a partnership.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You and your mate are obviously perfect people who’ve created a perfect marriage. Very well done.

You may come to experience that living with a Saint is just as tough and difficult as living with a Martyr and for sure you will be one and your partner the other.

Two Saints or two Martyrs together wouldn’t last five minutes together before killing each other, there’d just be too much Right Fighting, no compromising whatsoever and a fanatically brittle, death strangle hold on deeply held values and beliefs. One will eventually kill just to finally prove their values and their beliefs are the only right ones to have.



There’s something like a 50/50 chance one of you will have an affair. If it does happen it will be interesting to see who’s halo it was that dropped.


----------



## Gaia

You could look at it that way.. if that's the only way you are able to comprehend it in your mind AFEH. I will say this though. I don't see you jumping at what may seem like a good thing in the long run for your career and family... as you testing them. You were just doing what you thought would be best. My spouse had moved us as well and plans to do so again in the future and although things hadn't worked out like he planned... as with your case too it seems... we just found a way to cope with it as a team. That's terrible to hear your son had run off though. :/


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## SomedayDig

A great reply AFEH, and thank you for your well wishes.

I see my wife, Regret214's, affair as an ultimate test of my personal courage, strength and resilience. In essence, I see what you're saying about the shet test in that regard.

The way I have handled it is obviously complex and I'm in no place to describe how I have done it. I can only say that I feel I've responded like a Man. While I am far from forgiving her transgression (Dday of March 6th), I am gentle...yet not a push over. I have made many demands since (throwing out every pair of underwear, bra and articles of clothing - expensive but needed in my mind) and she has accepted her actions without reservation to my needs.

At times, I need comfort for my pain. I allow her to be the one to comfort me, though sometimes an hour on my Harley alone is what I need.

I don't want to hurt her as much as I hurt as that would be the ultimate travesty. Not to mention the thought of a revenge affair includes thoughtfully hurting a 3rd person outside of our marriage. 

Again on forgiveness...I hope to forgive her one day, however I will not forget. I feel there is a fine line between not forgetting and harboring ill feelings and therein lies forgiveness. I believe it WILL be the making of our marriage. I am on step 38 of my thousand steps journey. 

I will look up your book on Amazon. You've peaked my curiosity.


----------



## Gaia

And no.. our relationship isn't perfect by any means so not sure why you would toss that line out there.


----------



## Gaia

and no.. we are not perfect people either... no ones perfect.


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## AFEH

SomedayDig said:


> A great reply AFEH, and thank you for your well wishes.
> 
> I see my wife, Regret214's, affair as an ultimate test of my personal courage, strength and resilience. In essence, I see what you're saying about the shet test in that regard.
> 
> The way I have handled it is obviously complex and I'm in no place to describe how I have done it. I can only say that I feel I've responded like a Man. While I am far from forgiving her transgression (Dday of March 6th), I am gentle...yet not a push over. I have made many demands since (throwing out every pair of underwear, bra and articles of clothing - expensive but needed in my mind) and she has accepted her actions without reservation to my needs.
> 
> At times, I need comfort for my pain. I allow her to be the one to comfort me, *though sometimes an hour on my Harley alone is what I need.*
> 
> I don't want to hurt her as much as I hurt as that would be the ultimate travesty. Not to mention the thought of a revenge affair includes thoughtfully hurting a 3rd person outside of our marriage.
> 
> Again on forgiveness...I hope to forgive her one day, however I will not forget. I feel there is a fine line between not forgetting and harboring ill feelings and therein lies forgiveness. I believe it WILL be the making of our marriage. I am on step 38 of my thousand steps journey.
> 
> I will look up your book on Amazon. You've peaked my curiosity.


I smiled and chuckled when I read that. Well done, those things are seriously needed at these times and I’m guessing you’re extra aware and extra alert while out and about because of the testing times your emotions are having.

I believe in forgiveness. Basically because I like peace and contentment inside of me and those guys do not and cannot coexist in me while anger, bitterness and resentment are there. And it’s the latter I work at to be rid of. That is my goal, my objective. My forgiveness is for me and me alone. If it helps the other person then great, but for me it’s not necessary and sometimes personally damaging to tell them they’ve been forgiven.

For me the quicker I forgive, the quicker I repair myself and the quicker I can see if I participated in anyway in the shet testing behaviour. I have been this way since I was knee high to a grass hopper. I do take personal responsibility for me and my life, the bad as well as the good. I also forgive because I have the strongest of dislikes, a distaste for those people who have a victim mentality.


In these cases for me forgiveness (of a shet test) is a journey and the quicker we start out on it the quicker we end it and can then get on with the rest of our lives, enjoying the present and planning for and looking forward to the future. But I made the massive mistake in my marriage of forgiving and forgetting and of forgiving without creating new boundaries of protection around me such that I am not again tested by the same shet some time in the future. If you haven’t read it as yet Hold on to Your Nuts: The Relationship Manual for Men: Amazon.co.uk: Wayne M. Levine: Books is an excellent book for men.


----------



## AFEH

Gaia said:


> You could look at it that way.. if that's the only way you are able to comprehend it in your mind AFEH. I will say this though. I don't see you jumping at what may seem like a good thing in the long run for your career and family... as you testing them. You were just doing what you thought would be best. My spouse had moved us as well and plans to do so again in the future and although things hadn't worked out like he planned... as with your case too it seems... we just found a way to cope with it as a team. That's terrible to hear your son had run off though. :/


Thank you for giving me your permission to believe in, well what I believe in.

And thank you again for letting me value, well what I value.

You cannot even begin to imagine how much I appreciate that.

As a man of 63 years old you cannot believe how good that makes me feel and you have me wondering how I got this far without your specific permission and approval to be, well Me.


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## Gaia

How on earth did you come to the conclusion that I was "giving you permission" for anything? All I did was state how I viewed it.... so again... how did you come to that conclusion?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

Gaia said:


> How on earth did you come to the conclusion that I was "giving you permission" for anything? All I did was state how I viewed it.... so again... how did you come to that conclusion?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I half jest with you, I find it difficult to take you seriously. However I’ve already given you enough clues, you’ll have to work it out for yourself or maybe someone else can help you.

You've just been fitness tested.


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## Gaia

AFEH said:


> I half jest with you, I find it difficult to take you seriously. However I’ve already given you enough clues, you’ll have to work it out for yourself or maybe someone else can help you.
> 
> You've just been fitness tested.


Ah.. see... this right here.. along with a few of your other posts just leads me to believe that this is all a bunch of immature mind games. Thank you for your POV though.. its been highly entertaining.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

Gaia said:


> Ah.. see... this right here.. along with a few of your other posts just leads me to believe that this is all a bunch of immature mind games. Thank you for your POV though.. its been highly entertaining.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You will be one who will always find ways to believe in, well what you want to believe in. You come in with a set belief system and walk away with your belief system intact and unaltered. It is the opposite of enlightenment.

It is impossible for any man here to enlighten you because you do not have a problem in your life that you are trying to solve. I looked through your posts, there are an exceeding amount in such a short space of time in being here. And I couldn’t find one issue in your life that you have sought help to resolve. Mind you I gave up looking very quickly because it was like searching for a needle in the haystack of all your social posts.

In sales people like your good self are called tyre kickers. You stop by, see something going on, kick it a bit and after wasting people’s time move onto something else to kick.

Now. If you are ever seriously shet tested in your life/marriage such that your wounds are so deep and painful that you are traumatised go into a nervous breakdown and later suffer from post traumatic stress disorder, then maybe, just maybe you will recall some of the things that went on here and truly seek enlightenment because you want help to improve yourself and maybe your marriage.

Or maybe you'd send your husband on over here because you have a niggling suspicion the guys here maybe able to help him and therefore you.

But either one of you will have to have been in a very painful situation before this place has real meaning for you. Comprendo?



There are just a very few men and women here for their entertainment. You are as you stated one of them.

Those of us that are not do our best to tolerate you and the others while we get on with the serious stuff of helping other men and women out and being helped.


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## Gaia

There you go again taking shots at someone who has a different view from your own. I don't go around kicking at others as you put it and yes I do have my own issues as does everyone here. Its funny how you are sitting there trying to accuse me of such behavior when you yourself pitch a hissy fit and start sarcastically accusing others of having such perfect lives... and relationships.. even if you know little to nothing at all about them or why they are here. Now once more... its fine if you don't understand nor agree with my POV but do not try to sit there and insult me because I don't see things your way. I have been through quite a few bad experiences in my life and yes I do try to change and enlighten myself. Of course your so set in being right and all others wrong it seems so have a nice night.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

If your H is shet testing or fitness testing you then why not post the details? Or if you shet test or fitness test your H then why not be open and honest about it and post details?

Maybe then you will see what it is the men and some of the women here are on about and in that way become enlightened. Go on, risk it! 

Or is it as it seems that you really are here just to kick tyres and have a Right Fight?

You do know of course that Right Fights are at the very core of Shet Tests? That shet tests raise their very ugly heads over conflict of core, deeply held values and beliefs? “I’m Right!”. “No you are not. I’m Right!”.

If you didn’t know that you do know now and don’t forget where you learned it. Want to truly know how you are sometimes blindly driven by the unconscious behaviour that causes so many problems in your marriage? Read Tony Robins, he is the guru who will teach you these things.

Who is right here? You or me? Who is going to win that Right Fight? Do you really believe that you can teach this old dog new tricks? You are on a fools errand if you think that. Others here may be able to do it and some here most certainly have, both men and women. But you, no way.



Do you really believe I can put an experienced head on your inexperienced shoulders? I may have a remote chance of doing that, but only IF you have a compelling problem that you want to resolve, only IF you are truly committed to becoming a better woman and only IF you are driven by such pain that you WILL change no matter what.


So stop your tyre kicking, stop your Right Fighting. Post your problems and your vision of your future and see if the guys here, the men and women can give you a helping hand as they have many others.


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## AFEH

Gaia said:


> There you go again taking shots at someone who has a different view from your own. I don't go around kicking at others as you put it and yes I do have my own issues as does everyone here. Its funny how you are sitting there trying to accuse me of such behavior when you yourself pitch a hissy fit and start sarcastically accusing others of having such perfect lives... and relationships.. even if you know little to nothing at all about them or why they are here. Now once more... its fine if you don't understand nor agree with my POV but do not try to sit there and insult me because I don't see things your way. I have been through quite a few bad experiences in my life and yes I do try to change and enlighten myself. Of course your so set in being right and all others wrong it seems so have a nice night.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You’ve kind of entered a Church where there are a set of core values and beliefs developed and proven there validity and value over a number of years. And on entering you look around, huff and puff and say to yourself “Things need to CHANGE in here!!!”.


And there you are in your pulpit, up on your podium speaking out “You men in here are wrong! What you believe in isn’t true! Listen to me I will preach to you and change your ways. Listen to me and I will change your values and beliefs. Now don’t you go sticking by your old values and beliefs because if you do I WILL get upset”.

Imagine a Muslim going into a Synagogue and doing the same thing. "Stop believing what you are believing in. That’s a load of rubbish! Stop it! Stop it right now! Now you listen to me and whatever you do don’t disagree with me! While I attack you don't you go and be so mean and horrible and defend yourself. And stop attacking me! All I am doing is telling you you are WRONG and trying to CHANGE you!” Can you imagine them rolling about in the aisles, on the floor and laughing?

Or a Buddhist going into a Church preaching to the Christians there that their ways are wrong and they MUST become Buddhists in order to be happy. You see Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Jews are all happy with their faith. But oh boy do some of them get into the very biggest Shet Testing Right Fights ever!



Good luck with your Right Fight. You haven’t even tested my faith and made me look inside myself like some of the men and women here have.

And I wonder. I reckon you must Right Fight your husband as well. And if you do you sure as heck are shet testing him. I just hope you aren’t kicking his tyres too on your way through your marriage.



I tell Jehovah Witnesses who knock on my door the same thing. Thank for your time. I have my own set of values and beliefs I’ve developed over the years, they are a bit of a mixture of this and that, things that have helped me out and have meaning for me. And that’s it.

They have the sense to walk away and not try and convert me to their ways. To not get into a Right Fight. Unlike you, they have the grace to not insult my intelligence, to not shet test me by telling me I'm wrong and trying to change me.


----------



## ocotillo

Well I would never dispute anyone's personal views or approaches that have worked for them, but at the same time, I have to say that this conversation is probably extremely confusing. 

'Sh!t test' is actually an informal idiom for the more technical term, 'Congruence test.' 

A 'Congruence test' is social gambit intended to determine if a person's external representation of themselves actually matches their inner person. 

Men and women both do this. A wealthy man might be curious if a woman is truly attracted to him or is simply a gold digger and he might consciously or unconsciously probe to see if her standard of living matches her means.

However since women have historically had far more at stake when it comes to pairing off with a mate, the typical woman is not only going to probe more for congruency than the typical man, she is going to do it more skillfully. This is *not* a character flaw. This is just the way we are. The man is usually the one selling a product (i.e. himself) and the woman is usually the discriminating consumer. You can't blame a woman for looking for subtle indicators that a man might be overselling himself. 

Athol Kay and others have written insightful books which help men to see that the psychology of attraction does not completely end when rings are exchanged and people say, "I do." Testing may continue well into marriage. As a result though, I think the term, 'Sh!t test' has become bastardized a little bit and it's easily misinterpreted as a catch-all term for any and every conflict over values and boundaries.

Whether those conflicts are really 'tests' or not would vary considerably from couple to couple to couple and maybe that is part of the problem on this thread (?)


----------



## ocotillo

AFEH said:


> I tell Jehovah Witnesses who knock on my door the same thing....
> 
> They have the sense to walk away and not try and convert me to their ways.....


Slightly off topic, but the whole reason I came to TAM revolves around that faith....


----------



## Gaia

Thank you for that explaination ocotillo. It makes a lot more sense then what AFEH is tossing out.
AFEH.. I in no way demanded anyone to share my view and in fact have repeatedly stated that its fine if they don't agree with it because I understand we all have different POVs. Yoou however seem to snag one thing I and a few others have said and twist it into something its not. You have accused not just myself but other posters here of having perfect relationships just because they don't agree with the whole shyt test thing. No one here but yourself has tried to force their beliefs upon anyone. And once more... I will say.. if this works for some.. then great but its certainly not something I really agree with. However, just because I don't agree doesn't mean I expect others to share my view. As far as posting every detail of my life and relationship... it may come as a suprise but not everyone cares to share their entire life story over the net. Now I'm done talking to you so your going on ignore because there is no doubt in my mind that you will not read my post and will once again try to bait me into an arguement. Have a nice day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AFEH

ocotillo said:


> Well I would never dispute anyone's personal views or approaches that have worked for them, but at the same time, I have to say that this conversation is probably extremely confusing.
> 
> 'Sh!t test' is actually an informal idiom for the more technical term, 'Congruence test.'
> 
> A 'Congruence test' is social gambit intended to determine if a person's external representation of themselves actually matches their inner person.
> 
> Men and women both do this. A wealthy man might be curious if a woman is truly attracted to him or is simply a gold digger and he might consciously or unconsciously probe to see if her standard of living matches her means.
> 
> *However since women have historically had far more at stake when it comes to pairing off with a mate,* the typical woman is not only going to probe more for congruency than the typical man, she is going to do it more skillfully. This is *not* a character flaw. This is just the way we are. The man is usually the one selling a product (i.e. himself) and the woman is usually the discriminating consumer. You can't blame a woman for looking for subtle indicators that a man might be overselling himself.
> 
> Athol Kay and others have written insightful books which help men to see that the psychology of attraction does not completely end when rings are exchanged and people say, "I do." Testing may continue well into marriage. As a result though, I think the term, 'Sh!t test' has become bastardized a little bit and it's easily misinterpreted as a catch-all term for any and every conflict over values and boundaries.
> 
> Whether those conflicts are really 'tests' or not would vary considerably from couple to couple to couple and maybe that is part of the problem on this thread (?)


I’ve never for one second believed that. 

I know a Good Man has at least as much VALUE to a good woman as the Good Woman has to him. And that such is the STAKE a good man will put into his marriage he has at least as much vested in her as she has in him.

Who ever fed you that line fed you a load of bullshet. Of course a good woman has more vested than a bad man in her marriage, of that there is no doubt. And a good man has more vested in his marriage than a bad woman.

That belief you have gave many a woman high ideals and the need for a whole lot of high maintenance and many a man a very poor marriage.


----------



## AFEH

ocotillo said:


> Well I would never dispute anyone's personal views or approaches that have worked for them, but at the same time, I have to say that this conversation is probably extremely confusing.
> 
> 'Sh!t test' is actually an informal idiom for the more technical term, 'Congruence test.'
> 
> A 'Congruence test' is social gambit intended to determine if a person's external representation of themselves actually matches their inner person.
> 
> Men and women both do this. A wealthy man might be curious if a woman is truly attracted to him or is simply a gold digger and he might consciously or unconsciously probe to see if her standard of living matches her means.
> 
> However since women have historically had far more at stake when it comes to pairing off with a mate, the typical woman is not only going to probe more for congruency than the typical man, she is going to do it more skillfully. This is *not* a character flaw. This is just the way we are. The man is usually the one selling a product (i.e. himself) and the woman is usually the discriminating consumer. You can't blame a woman for looking for subtle indicators that a man might be overselling himself.
> 
> Athol Kay and others have written insightful books which help men to see that the psychology of attraction does not completely end when rings are exchanged and people say, "I do." Testing may continue well into marriage. As a result though, I think the term, 'Sh!t test' has become bastardized a little bit and it's easily misinterpreted as a catch-all term for any and every conflict over values and boundaries.
> 
> Whether those conflicts are really 'tests' or not would vary considerably from couple to couple to couple and maybe that is part of the problem on this thread (?)


That congruence test of yours in the way you explain it is NOT a shet test.

Your congruence test is a FITNESS test! How many times! For goodness sake get it right! 

Now how about explaining what you think a SHET test is? You got it wrong first time round.

Maybe you and Gaia can take it aside, come up with your own definition and explanation and well, come back in here and see if it makes sense.

And if you can then articulate your plan as to how a husband uses his wife’s shet tests to motivate, inspire and lead her into a happy and healthy marriage then that will be truly quite an achievement?

How long do you want and when will you be reporting back!


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## AFEH

ocotillo said:


> Well I would never dispute anyone's personal views or approaches that have worked for them, but at the same time, I have to say that this conversation is probably extremely confusing.


And then you do exactly what you said you weren’t going to do! And you have the audacity to say that people are fitness tested or congruence tested to see who they really are inside.

That’s immediately after misrepresenting yourself, who you are inside! 



ocotillo said:


> 'Sh!t test' is actually an informal idiom for the more technical term, 'Congruence test.'
> 
> A 'Congruence test' is social gambit intended to determine if a person's external representation of themselves actually matches their inner person.
> 
> Men and women both do this. A wealthy man might be curious if a woman is truly attracted to him or is simply a gold digger and he might consciously or unconsciously probe to see if her standard of living matches her means.
> 
> However since women have historically had far more at stake when it comes to pairing off with a mate, the typical woman is not only going to probe more for congruency than the typical man, she is going to do it more skillfully. This is *not* a character flaw. This is just the way we are. The man is usually the one selling a product (i.e. himself) and the woman is usually the discriminating consumer. You can't blame a woman for looking for subtle indicators that a man might be overselling himself.
> 
> Athol Kay and others have written insightful books which help men to see that the psychology of attraction does not completely end when rings are exchanged and people say, "I do." Testing may continue well into marriage. As a result though, I think the term, 'Sh!t test' has become bastardized a little bit and it's easily misinterpreted as a catch-all term for any and every conflict over values and boundaries.
> 
> Whether those conflicts are really 'tests' or not would vary considerably from couple to couple to couple and maybe that is part of the problem on this thread (?)


----------



## AFEH

Octillo, the fitness/congruence testing example you used is the man Fitness Testing the woman to see if she has credibility and integrity. Two values in a woman of singular importance to him. And who can blame him for fitness testing her.

That is not a shet test!

Now she may well take it as a shet test if she fails and it causes her a great deal of pain and hardship because she didn’t trap her man. If she wants to improve herself then she may well use her pain and hardship as motivators to inspire herself to lead her self into a place of integrity and credibility and as such become an honest broker!

But she may not and may have to be burned by yet another shet test before she gets it. Bear in mind she may never do that. There really are unchanging people in the world. They die as the 80 year old they were as a seven year old or whatever. Life’s lessons did not teach them one little thing no matter how much pain life brought their way.


----------



## Cosmos

Gaia said:


> AFEH.. I in no way demanded anyone to share my view and in fact have repeatedly stated that its fine if they don't agree with it because I understand we all have different POVs. Yoou however seem to snag one thing I and a few others have said and twist it into something its not. You have accused not just myself but other posters here of having perfect relationships just because they don't agree with the whole shyt test thing. No one here but yourself has tried to force their beliefs upon anyone. And once more...


Well said, Gaia. :iagree:


----------



## AFEH

Gaia said:


> Thank you for that explaination ocotillo. It makes a lot more sense then what AFEH is tossing out.
> AFEH.. I in no way demanded anyone to share my view and in fact have repeatedly stated that its fine if they don't agree with it because I understand we all have different POVs. Yoou however seem to snag one thing I and a few others have said and twist it into something its not. You have accused not just myself but other posters here of having perfect relationships just because they don't agree with the whole shyt test thing. No one here but yourself has tried to force their beliefs upon anyone. And once more... I will say.. if this works for some.. then great but its certainly not something I really agree with. However, just because I don't agree doesn't mean I expect others to share my view. As far as posting every detail of my life and relationship... it may come as a suprise but not everyone cares to share their entire life story over the net. Now I'm done talking to you so your going on ignore because there is no doubt in my mind that you will not read my post and will once again try to bait me into an arguement. Have a nice day.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:sleeping:


----------



## pidge70

Gaia said:


> Thank you for that explaination ocotillo. It makes a lot more sense then what AFEH is tossing out.
> AFEH.. I in no way demanded anyone to share my view and in fact have repeatedly stated that its fine if they don't agree with it because I understand we all have different POVs. Yoou however seem to snag one thing I and a few others have said and twist it into something its not. You have accused not just myself but other posters here of having perfect relationships just because they don't agree with the whole shyt test thing. No one here but yourself has tried to force their beliefs upon anyone. And once more... I will say.. if this works for some.. then great but its certainly not something I really agree with. However, just because I don't agree doesn't mean I expect others to share my view. As far as posting every detail of my life and relationship... it may come as a suprise but not everyone cares to share their entire life story over the net. Now I'm done talking to you so your going on ignore because there is no doubt in my mind that you will not read my post and will once again try to bait me into an arguement. Have a nice day.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



:allhail:

I LOVE the ignore feature!


----------



## ocotillo

AFEH said:


> And then you do exactly what you said you weren’t going to do! And you have the audacity to say that people are fitness tested or congruence tested to see who they really are inside.
> 
> That’s immediately after misrepresenting yourself, who you are inside!



AFEH, 

I think there's a difference here. Linguistics is my field. It's not what I do for a living today, because I never could make any real money at it, (A Master's will get you a teaching position and that's about it...) but I'm still coming from that perspective. -Can't help it.

Pointing out the etymological, colloquial and technical origins of words and terms as found in lexical works and clinical literature is *not* the same thing as disputing "...anyone's personal views or approaches" because more than most, I understand the liquidity of language. The latter is a phenomenon we see on TAM all the time _vis-à-vis_ everyday terms like, 'Pornography.' 

I can see that the term means something very specific to you and I'd be happy to compare sources. Maybe you have some clinical sources that trump the less technical works I've found. 




AFEH said:


> I’ve never for one second believed that.
> I know a Good Man has at least as much VALUE to a good woman as the Good Woman has to him.....
> 
> Who ever fed you that line fed you a load of bullshet...


I don't think we really disagree here. 

The devaluation of men and the feminist notion that society only exploits women are major, major pet peeves of mine. If Haig's marching of 750,000 male soldiers a day straight into German water-cooled Maxim machine guns during World War I was not gender-based exploitation, then what is I'd like to know? 

What I meant by that statement is that reliable, safe birth control is a relatively recent development. Just two hundred years ago, a woman's alternative to being extremely discriminating sexually was to be pregnant most of her adult life.

I shouldn't have to quote statistics from the days before Louis Pasteur on what this did to female life expectancy, but I can. *Historically*, sex has carried more immediate and severe consequences for women. That has been the pattern for most of humanity's existence and women are carrying that baggage in their primal minds even though modern birth control has mostly changed that.


----------



## AFEH

pidge70 said:


> :allhail:
> 
> I LOVE the ignore feature!


:sleeping:

Congratulations. You get one on your very first post. You are the Champion of sending me to sleep because no one can ever beat that


----------



## AFEH

ocotillo said:


> AFEH,
> 
> I think there's a difference here. Linguistics is my field. It's not what I do for a living today, because I never could make any real money at it, (A Master's will get you a teaching position and that's about it...) but I'm still coming from that perspective. -Can't help it.
> 
> Pointing out the etymological, colloquial and technical origins of words and terms as found in lexical works and clinical literature is *not* the same thing as disputing "...anyone's personal views or approaches" because more than most, I understand the liquidity of language. The latter is a phenomenon we see on TAM all the time _vis-à-vis_ everyday terms like, 'Pornography.'
> 
> I can see that the term means something very specific to you and I'd be happy to compare sources. Maybe you have some clinical sources that trump the less technical works I've found.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think we really disagree here.
> 
> The devaluation of men and the feminist notion that society only exploits women are major, major pet peeves of mine. If Haig's marching of 750,000 male soldiers a day straight into German water-cooled Maxim machine guns during World War I was not gender-based exploitation, then what is I'd like to know?
> 
> What I meant by that statement is that reliable, safe birth control is a relatively recent development. Just two hundred years ago, a woman's alternative to being extremely discriminating sexually was to be pregnant most of her adult life.
> 
> I shouldn't have to quote statistics from the days before Louis Pasteur on what this did to female life expectancy, but I can. *Historically*, sex has carried more immediate and severe consequences for women. That has been the pattern for most of humanity's existence and women are carrying that baggage in their primal minds even though modern birth control has mostly changed that.


ocotillo, where is your description of what a shet test is in there? I read what you wrote but I couldn’t see it.

I can point out some to you. Nothing will test a man as much as the battlefield and in your example marching straight into machine gun fire. What do you think, were they being fitness tested or shet tested, or both? I have heard from war vets that a man can be tested just as much and experience as much trauma in his marriage as he would on a battlefield. Do you think that true?

What is your motivation for introducing birth control and such? I can’t see the point you are making. Is it a point about fitness testing. And why have you introduced feminism? What is your motivation for doing that? It sure can test a man at times. Is that your point?




Again I ask you to tell me what you think I mean by shet testing. I’m looking for feedback from you to see if you at least understand the words I use.

What do you think the concept is that I use the phrase “shet test” to describe? Say in no more than 50 words?


----------



## AFEH

Another source of tests is to do with being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I’ve a good buddy who lost his daughter when she was in her early twenties in a car crash. The loss of a son or a daughter puts a massive strain on a marriage and can tear the couple apart and will often bring it down. Even those who stay together have a tremendous amount of work to do not only working through their own grief in their own way, but also the grief of their partner. My mate and his wife made it, but even decades later he has sleepless nights. Yet even now he still inspires and motivates his wife and calms her when she's troubled. And his wife used her experience to get trained such that she too could help others who'd been traumatised.


And what about those mass murderers? Mothers, fathers, teachers, husbands and wives, paramedics, police all are seriously tested in these times. Will they pass their “tests” will the wounds they receive and the pain they feel make them stronger or weaker. What will they learn from it all. Will marriages be strengthened or weakened by the experiences.

I’ve mentioned my knowledge of a mass murderer. I witnessed first hand, not be reading about it somewhere, how the victims responded. Some got together as a group and created a letter of forgiveness, forgiving the guy for murdering a loved one or maiming and disabling them for life. For traumatising them. And they sent the letter to the guys parents. Where did they find the strength to do that, to forgive? Why did they forgive, what was in it for them. My question is rhetorical because I sure know the answer.

And yet there was another group of people who didn’t want to forgive. Who’s to judge them, certainly not me. But we do have choices in these things. We’ve been seriously shet tested such that we’re deeply traumatised. What do we do with our pain?


----------



## ocotillo

AFEH said:


> ocotillo, where is your description of what a shet test is in there? I read what you wrote but I couldn’t see it.


I have explained it here  You've taken exception to that, which is why we're still discussing it. 

But again, from the standpoint of linguistics it doesn't really matter what I personally believe the term means, because my view is as contaminated by my own subjectivity as anyone else's. All of us inject our own subjective experience and perceptions into the words and terms we use, but at the end of the day, that subjectivity is subordinate to how the term is defined in published works.

The term, 'Sh!t test' appears to have originated on the internet. The earliest _published_ work in which it is defined that I have been able to find is the 2005 book, _The Game: Penetrating the Secret Society of Pickup Artists_ by Neil Strauss. Since then, other authors have referred back to his definition as definitive (cf. Apple, Olivia, _Survival of the $hi!#est_, 2011) 

There may be more authoritative works than these, perhaps from the field of psychology, but I haven't run across any. 



AFEH said:


> What is your motivation for introducing birth control and such? I can’t see the point you are making. Is it a point about fitness testing. And why have you introduced feminism? What is your motivation for doing that? It sure can test a man at times. Is that your point?


I had said that, "...._women have historically had far more at stake when it comes to pairing off with a mate._." and you disagreed. 

Pointing out that reliable birth control is a relatively recent development fleshes out that assertion into a three-point syllogism. 






AFEH said:


> Again I ask you to tell me what you think I mean by shet testing. I’m looking for feedback from you to see if you at least understand the words I use.
> 
> What do you think the concept is that I use the phrase “shet test” to describe? Say in no more than 50 words?


You want me to repeat back to you what you think the term means in fifty words or less? :scratchhead:

This is not a conversation between a teacher and pupil; this is (hopefully) a conversation between equals. In my mind, it's a 'patio-conversation' between two friends.

I hope my comments above explain why I don't believe the opinion of one person is authoritative.


----------



## AFEH

Ocotillo, I’m just not that academic. I can go into detail when it’s necessary, for a reason. But the thread is about what is a shet test and your detail, linguistics, historical stuff is for me just too academic and diversionary. I just don’t have your need in that way. I leave our interaction not knowing if we agree on what I think a shet test is. That shouldn’t have been difficult, it was a very trivial exercise made exceedingly complex.


----------



## Lyris

I don't understand what you think a sh*t test is, AFEH. I though originally it was a deliberate/semi-deliberate piece of provoking behaviour designed to find out what your partner will and won't allow. 

But from reading your posts, it seems like you think a sh*t test is any clash of values, beliefs or personality. They can be personal or not personal, deliberate or a kind of consequence of catastrophic personality disorders. Your example of people being sh*t tested by a mass murderer was especially puzzling to me. I suppose it is being tested by life events, but the murderer wasn't doing it to test those victims, even unconsciously. 

So I'm not understanding, but I'm interested.


----------



## AFEH

Lyris said:


> I don't understand what you think a sh*t test is, AFEH. I though originally it was a deliberate/semi-deliberate piece of provoking behaviour designed to find out what your partner will and won't allow.
> 
> But from reading your posts, it seems like you think a sh*t test is any clash of values, beliefs or personality. They can be personal or not personal, deliberate or a kind of consequence of catastrophic personality disorders. Your example of people being sh*t tested by a mass murderer was especially puzzling to me. I suppose it is being tested by life events, but the murderer wasn't doing it to test those victims, even unconsciously.
> 
> So I'm not understanding, but I'm interested.


It’s to do with pain. A shet test causes pain. It’s about what we do with that pain.

Part of my philosophy of life is that the shet tests and the pain they cause come into our lives to teach us something. I think the wise amongst us look to see what that is and learn and grow from it. It’s pain that can move us to a better place or a worse place, to be a better person or a worse person than we were before the shet test.

Some men come here because of the pain they are in. Because they’ve been traumatised by a shet test. In cases here a shet test by their wife. We try and help them to use that event to start out on a new journey to improve themselves, to become a better person than they were before they got shet tested.

It’s kind of like “Oh shet I’m really hurting here. Why?” and that starts a journey into a new way of being. The first thing to look at is why is there pain, what’s the reason for it? And that will tell him a lot about his or his wife’s problems or both.


Does that make sense?


----------



## AFEH

I was to discover that the pain in my shet test was caused by my wife’s betrayal of me. Have I worked to make myself a better man because of it? Not at the moment because I’ve been working such that I don’t become a worse man. The only way to get back to where I was before the shet test is to forgive my wife for her betrayal. That forgiveness is a long time coming but at least I’m working on it. At least I don’t feel like a victim even though I may present as one, meanwhile I'm living a truly blessed life right by beautiful beaches.


----------



## Cosmos

Lyris said:


> I don't understand what you think a sh*t test is, AFEH. I though originally it was a deliberate/semi-deliberate piece of provoking behaviour designed to find out what your partner will and won't allow.


It is, and, IMO, it's usually nothing more than one person acting out in order to get the other person sit up and take notice. The test is about how the other person deals with it. Dealing with a sh!t tester in a firm but reassuring manner is a pass. Cow towing or retaliating with a sh!t test of your own is a fail.

It truly isn't as complicated and deep as some may think. It's simply like a toddler throwing its toys out of its cot in order to test the boundaries.


----------



## Lyris

AFEH said:


> It’s to do with pain. A shet test causes pain. It’s about what we do with that pain.
> 
> Part of my philosophy of life is that the shet tests and the pain they cause come into our lives to teach us something. I think the wise amongst us look to see what that is and learn and grow from it. It’s pain that can move us to a better place or a worse place, to be a better person or a worse person than we were before the shet test.
> 
> Some men come here because of the pain they are in. Because they’ve been traumatised by a shet test. In cases here a shet test by their wife. We try and help them to use that event to start out on a new journey to improve themselves, to become a better person than they were before they got shet tested.
> 
> It’s kind of like “Oh shet I’m really hurting here. Why?” and that starts a journey into a new way of being. The first thing to look at is why is there pain, what’s the reason for it? And that will tell him a lot about his or his wife’s problems or both.
> 
> 
> Does that make sense?


Okay, I think I get it now. Something happens that causes you pain, and it's a test, maybe from another person, maybe from the universe or whatever.

That's where I was getting lost in your posts I think. I couldn't see the tester among the tests. 

I used to try to see my late mother in law that way, as she would drive me to a pitch of fury and irritation that I never felt when dealing with anyone else. I would try to feel love, understanding and forgiveness for her and would sometimes succeed, but rarely and it was more difficult as time went on. I never did learn those lessons. 

I don't have the same beliefs that there is purpose or intent to the universe, but I think I understand better what you were saying in your posts now.


----------



## AFEH

Lyris said:


> Okay, I think I get it now. Something happens that causes you pain, and it's a test, maybe from another person, maybe from the universe or whatever.
> 
> That's where I was getting lost in your posts I think. I couldn't see the tester among the tests.
> 
> I used to try to see my late mother in law that way, as she would drive me to a pitch of fury and irritation that I never felt when dealing with anyone else. I would try to feel love, understanding and forgiveness for her and would sometimes succeed, but rarely and it was more difficult as time went on. I never did learn those lessons.
> 
> I don't have the same beliefs that there is purpose or intent to the universe, but I think I understand better what you were saying in your posts now.


Your example is a very good one. With some like your late mother in law they can be the biggest testers of all. For example people with a victim mentality test everyone around them. When they are a part of our life, not a stranger, we maybe try and change ourselves, say to be more patient and tolerant, to be more empathetic and understanding but that can just make them worse because then we become an easy target for their shet testing behaviours. Boundaries are the way to handle the shet testers of the world.

I use to live in a Shire in England in a small village. I wanted to change myself, to be more patient and tolerant. One of the things that drove me crazy were the school runs. Parents in 4x4s would tailgate me on their school run, seemingly trying to literally push me along to go faster. I rigidly stuck to the speed limit and I’d get so angry at them. I used that as a shet test to train my observer consciousness and improve my patience and tolerance. Those types of shet tests can be like on-the-job training.

On TAM there are those that shet test by pushing boundaries, some consciously and some subconsciously. One of the reasons TAM is such a safe place to be is because of its boundaries and how the Mods deal with boundary infractions.

When shet tested we have an emotional response that’s negative. This can be sadness, disappointment, frustration, hurt, anger etc. or a complicated mixture of emotions. The greater the negative emotion we feel, the greater the shet test. For example jealousy and betrayal contain complex mixtures of emotions. If we find our wife in the arms of another man, that shet test is the source of many negative emotions.

But men often fail the shet test. And in part that’s to do with the fact many wont even feel their emotions as they try and argue or debate their way through what it is that’s going on with logic and reasoning.

Many don’t know that we can have an emotion going on inside of us without even being aware of it. But it’s there trying to tell us something is wrong. Sometimes it just can’t get through all the ego chatter in the man’s mind, sometimes it will get through but as quickly as it does the man suppresses it to continue with his logic and reasoning.

His emotions build up to the point that there’s going to be anger there in the man and that anger can take less than 0.3 sec to take him over. Now because he was unaware of his emotions he can seem to be a madman, in a rage and totally out of control. When he’s at that point he’s been well and truly shet tested and he’s failed his test in a very big way.

Other men don’t get angry in that way. They stay calm and collected and they wont assert themselves, wont confront the issue right there in front of them and avoids conflict at all times. This type of man also failed his shet test even though seemingly he didn’t get angry.


----------



## AFEH

Cosmos said:


> It is, and, IMO, it's usually nothing more than one person acting out in order to get the other person sit up and take notice. The test is about how the other person deals with it. Dealing with a sh!t tester in a firm but reassuring manner is a pass. Cow towing or retaliating with a sh!t test of your own is a fail.
> 
> It truly isn't as complicated and deep as some may think. It's simply like a toddler throwing its toys out of its cot in order to test the boundaries.


*At a feast of ego, everyone leaves hungry.*

:rofl:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Awareness-A...5192/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1345374040&sr=8-1. Two or three readings and you might get it.


----------



## Cosmos

AFEH said:


> *At a feast of ego, everyone leaves hungry.*
> 
> :rofl:
> 
> Awareness: Amazon.co.uk: Anthony De Mello: Books. Two or three readings and you might get it.


I'm gratified that you are amused by my quote. After two or three readings, I very much doubt that you will get it.


----------



## AFEH

Lyris said:


> Okay, I think I get it now. Something happens that causes you pain, and it's a test, maybe from another person, maybe from the universe or whatever.
> 
> That's where I was getting lost in your posts I think. I couldn't see the tester among the tests.
> 
> I used to try to see my late mother in law that way, as she would drive me to a pitch of fury and irritation that I never felt when dealing with anyone else. I would try to feel love, understanding and forgiveness for her and would sometimes succeed, but rarely and it was more difficult as time went on. I never did learn those lessons.
> 
> *I don't have the same beliefs that there is purpose or intent to the universe, but I think I understand better what you were saying in your posts now.*


Is there purpose or intent behind a shet test, not for the shet tester, but for the one being tested? I think there are most definitely lessons to be learned that if we do it right will help us grow as a person. And it is in this way we continue on our path of individuation, we continue on our path to become the man or woman we were meant to be.

But where does that purpose or intent originate from?

I think that will depend on a person’s philosophy of life, how they look at these things. I believe that they come from life and they come to teach us something about ourselves and other people. It’s from our pain that we learn and grow, hopefully anyway as many don’t learn anything at all!

For me shet tests come from “life”, it’s just that the shet tests have different messengers, different people carrying them out, performing them.

We learn a lot not only about ourselves as the result of a shet test, but also about the person who shet tested us. For example with the shet test that brought my marriage down I learnt my boundaries were either nonexistent or just in my subconscious and that my wife is a liar and manipulator who betrayed me big time.


----------



## AFEH

Cosmos said:


> I'm gratified that you are amused by my quote. After two or three readings, I very much doubt that you will get it.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## Lyris

Sorry, I think I misunderstood you again.

What I meant was that I don't believe that there is a larger plan, or someone/something guiding my life and bringing tests to me. So in my mother in law example, I don't believe that she was sent to test me, or to help me grow or learn anything, I think it was random. 

I hear that kind of thing a lot, that things are sent to try us, or test our faith, or that karma is a *****. None of that rings true to me. 

But certainly, the things that have forced me to grow and change and examine most deeply have been painful things. Joyful as well though, especially the births and development of my children, which I describe as transcendent, when I'm feeling flowery.


----------



## AFEH

Lyris said:


> Sorry, I think I misunderstood you again.
> 
> What I meant was that I don't believe that there is a larger plan, or someone/something guiding my life and bringing tests to me. So in my mother in law example, I don't believe that she was sent to test me, or to help me grow or learn anything, I think it was random.
> 
> I hear that kind of thing a lot, that things are sent to try us, or test our faith, or that karma is a *****. None of that rings true to me.
> 
> But certainly, the things that have forced me to grow and change and examine most deeply have been painful things. Joyful as well though, especially the births and development of my children, which I describe as transcendent, when I'm feeling flowery.


Is it a misunderstanding? Or is it a difference in what we believe in?

There’s the story of the two blood brothers, one asks “Why do you have so much belief in God?” and the other responds “Because my belief works for me”.

End of story? Or does one brother try and convert the other to their values and beliefs and initiate a whole barrow full of shet tests?


So in this, between you and I surely it’s best to agree that we disagree in the source and purpose of shet tests. Simply because your belief works for you and mine works for me.

I am truly happy with my beliefs, the beat of my drum got me the very pleasant life I have now in my early 60s. It’s pointless anyone trying to change that.

If I crash again which I may well do and the beat of my drum gets erratic and confused, when I come out of my confusion my beat may well have a different rhythm but it will be in tune because of the lesson the shet test, for me "life", taught me.


----------



## AFEH

Cosmos said:


> It is, and, IMO, it's usually nothing more than one person acting out in order to get the other person sit up and take notice. The test is about how the other person deals with it. Dealing with a sh!t tester in a firm but reassuring manner is a pass. Cow towing or retaliating with a sh!t test of your own is a fail.
> 
> It truly isn't as complicated and deep as some may think. It's simply like a toddler throwing its toys out of its cot in order to test the boundaries.


You know nothing of subconscious, unaware behaviour? You think all shet testing behaviour is in ego consciousness?

The subconscious and unconscious of a person are probably the primary sources of their shet tests. Because it’s in those places that their Shadow resides. And will all have a Shadow. And sometimes we only ever become aware of it upon reflection and introspection. And of course honesty with ourselves. But some just can’t or wont do those things. In that they never accept personal responsibility for their own behaviour, it was always somebody else’s fault.


For example the person with the victim personality is classically an unconscious shet tester. They have no idea of the massive amounts of damage they do even to their next of kin, their children and their spouse. They go through life blind to the ill and sometimes wicked and evil nature of their behaviour.


----------



## Lyris

AFEH said:


> Is it a misunderstanding? Or is it a difference in what we believe in?
> 
> There’s the story of the two blood brothers, one asks “Why do you have so much belief in God?” and the other responds “Because my belief works for me”.
> 
> End of story? Or does one brother try and convert the other to their values and beliefs and initiate a whole barrow full of shet tests?
> 
> 
> So in this, between you and I surely it’s best to agree that we disagree in the source and purpose of shet tests. Simply because your belief works for you and mine works for me.
> 
> I am truly happy with my beliefs, the beat of my drum got me the very pleasant life I have now in my early 60s. It’s pointless anyone trying to change that.
> 
> If I crash again which I may well do and the beat of my drum gets erratic and confused, when I come out of my confusion my beat may well have a different rhythm but it will be in tune because of the lesson the shet test taught me.


Yes, a difference. Thank you for taking the time to explain your thinking about this. 

Looking back ten years, or even five, I am amazed at how little I knew or how what I thought was fixed in stone has moved and softened. I don't state certainties much anymore, at least not to myself.


----------



## Cosmos

> You know nothing of subconscious, unaware behaviour? You think all shet testing behaviour is in ego consciousness?


I think a sh!it test is a conscious act to get a subconscious / primal need met.


----------



## AFEH

Lyris said:


> Yes, a difference. Thank you for taking the time to explain your thinking about this.
> 
> Looking back ten years, or even five, I am amazed at how little I knew or how what I thought was fixed in stone has moved and softened. I don't state certainties much anymore, at least not to myself.


It’s a genuine pleasure.

Sometimes it’s only when we look back that we see these things.

For example you have moved on over the past 5 or 10 years from an old Me and into a new Me. In that you have become a changed person. And if things go as planned (sorry just couldn’t resist that but I feel you wont mind), you will continue evolving as a person.

We develop different versions of our self as we go through life. Say from Me (up to 3 years old when we understand, we are a part of the world, not the whole world, we start to differentiate). From Me, we go to Me01, Me02, Me03, Me04 etc. In our life there are some seriously big testing times and the big ones will (should) produce the biggest changes in us. Being 40 years old, menopause, midlife crisis etc. etc.

This is in essence a lot of what Anthony de Mello (Awareness: Amazon.co.uk: Anthony De Mello: Books) is about. He teaches us how to be the observer of our life, the inactive participant. How to actually detach from our ego, that place where all our values and beliefs are, the place that actually experiences and feels our emotions etc. etc.

He calls the place he gets us into our “I”. Others call it our observer consciousness. Yours sounds well developed. The quicker we learn about these things, how to observe our behaviour and the behaviour of others even in the heat of a seriously big shet test, the better we become at actually passing them!

The thing is in our life we will have many Me’s as we evolve and change to meet the new challenges life brings our way. It is in this way that our ego develops from that of the three year old child. It’s called the journey of individuation.

For example maybe I was meant to live by beaches, being there at sunrise and sunset to catch the light with my camera and to sell my images on canvases. To live amongst people in a country away from where I was born. And to no longer be with the woman who meant so very much to me. I am a very changed man. Things of value to me in the past have no value for me now. My ego, value and belief system has changed tremendously. Will it get tested again? Probably. Will I be up for the test, get through it ok? I really don’t know and for me that’s life.


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## AFEH

Cosmos said:


> I think a sh!it test is a conscious act to get a subconscious / primal need met.


All that means is that you are a conscious shet tester. Good luck with that one.

I hope you warn the people you are in relationships with. Kind of like wear a "Danger" sign on your t-shirt because you are saying you deliberately and consciously perform acts of aggression that you know will hurt the person.

Unfortunately with someone like you, the deeper another loves you, heaven help them if they are in love with you, the more vulnerable they are to you and therefore the deeper you will wound them and the greater will be their pain.

You might want to research passive aggression. Don’t be fooled by the word passive. PA can be the source of exceedingly violent, conscious and painful acts of aggression.



PA is one of the major sources of shet tests. What is it best for the person you deliberately and consciously shet test? Run. Run away and leave you standing in the dust! Because that’s the only way they’ll ever stop you shet testing and hurting them. Boundaries wont do it because you WANT to shet test. It is a part of who you are in the deepest part of your psyche. Take that ability away from you and you’d probably have a crisis of identity.


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## Cosmos

AFEH said:


> All that means is that you are a conscious shet tester. Good luck with that one.
> 
> I hope you warn the people you are in relationships with. Kind of like wear a "Danger" sign on your t-shirt because you are saying you deliberately and consciously perform acts that you know will hurt the person.
> 
> Unfortunately with someone like you, the deeper another loves you, heaven help them if they are in love with you, the more vulnerable they are to you and therefore the more deeper will be their wound and the greater their pain.
> 
> You might want to research passive aggression. Don’t be fooled by the word passive. PA can be the source of exceedingly violent, conscious and painful acts of aggression.
> 
> 
> 
> PA is one of the major sources of shet tests. What is it best for the person you deliberately and consciously shet test? Run. Run away and leave you standing in the dust! Because that’s the only way they’ll ever stop you shet testing and hurting them. Boundaries wont do it because you WANT to shet test. It is a part of who you are in the deepest part of your psyche. Take that ability away from you and you’d probably have a crisis of identity.


I'm quite staggered by your response. Nowhere have I stated that I behave in this way, and I find your post rude, vindictive and offensive.

That says a lot about you, AFEH.


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## RoosterCogburn

AFEH said:


> All that means is that you are a conscious shet tester. Good luck with that one.
> 
> I hope you warn the people you are in relationships with. Kind of like wear a "Danger" sign on your t-shirt because you are saying you deliberately and consciously perform acts of aggression that you know will hurt the person.
> 
> Unfortunately with someone like you, the deeper another loves you, heaven help them if they are in love with you, the more vulnerable they are to you and therefore the deeper you will wound them and the greater will be their pain.
> 
> You might want to research passive aggression. Don’t be fooled by the word passive. PA can be the source of exceedingly violent, conscious and painful acts of aggression.
> 
> 
> 
> PA is one of the major sources of shet tests. What is it best for the person you deliberately and consciously shet test? Run. Run away and leave you standing in the dust! Because that’s the only way they’ll ever stop you shet testing and hurting them. Boundaries wont do it because you WANT to shet test. It is a part of who you are in the deepest part of your psyche. Take that ability away from you and you’d probably have a crisis of identity.



I think that is by far the most vindictive and hurtful post I have read on here (don't post much but read plenty). I think you should urgently consider a retraction and an apology.


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## AFEH

RoosterCogburn said:


> I think that is by far the most vindictive and hurtful post I have read on here (don't post much but read plenty). I think you should urgently consider a retraction and an apology.


Some of us get involved, take risks and try and help. Try and make a contribution over and above criticising others.

And sometimes people like me get it wrong.

Have I not helped you in some ways, even if it's in the negative type of help? The only way that occured is because I post.

Or are you just one of those waiting to pounce when someone like me makes a mistake? Do you have more ingratitude than you have gratitude?

Thanks for your message, but you could have sent a PM about it.


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## AFEH

Cosmos said:


> I think a sh!it test is a conscious act to get a subconscious / primal need met.





Cosmos said:


> I'm quite staggered by your response. Nowhere have I stated that I behave in this way, and I find your post rude, vindictive and offensive.
> 
> That says a lot about you, AFEH.


Cosmos, I apologise.

You described Passive Aggression in the most clear and succinct way I’ve ever read. Without actually calling it passive aggression. And I think I triggered. My wife was passive aggressive. But it was in her Shadow and as such she was unconscious, unaware of the consequences of her shet testing nature and behaviour.

Only after she got a shet test from me, separation, did she even begin to look inside herself and have an epiphany moment. That’s when she became somewhat aware of her passive aggression.

Again I apologise. I seem to have given you one very big shet test.


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## AFEH

And that's not a pa way of me saying you are a pa!


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## RoosterCogburn

AFEH said:


> Or are you just one of those waiting to pounce when someone like me makes a mistake? Do you have more ingratitude than you have gratitude?


No, I just come here to learn rather than teach.

I applaud your reasoned apology.


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## lovelygirl

donny64 said:


> No significant arguing. We have discussions. Sometimes we're mad at each other, but it does not escelate into yelling.
> No yelling...ever


You never cease to make PERFECT sense! You are a true man about how you handle your disagreements with your woman!

I used to chit test my ex ...and most of the times he would fail the tests.
I wanted to see how much of a man he was but he wasn't all that much. 
At times I used to do something wrong _on purpose_ to see his reaction and he used to start yelling and calling me names. 
Other times he used to yell at me FOR NO reason, even when we both knew he was wrong and I was right. 
Little by little I lost respect for him because he was not firm in his attitude and ideas and at times he would treat me disrespectfully. 
I then started to look down on him because he started doing things out of spite and that to me was very childish. He never apologized about his wrongdoings and would act like a tough guy for no apparent reason - and this made him look *ridiculous.*

Whenever we had problems I always wanted to confront them and communicate them to him _in a respectful manner._ He always chose to let them slide and then when it was convenient to him he used to blow up and throw the fault at me without being able to communicate like an adult. 

I came to think he didn't know how to treat a woman, although he had been in other relationships before the one with me. 

For these and many other reasons, my whole 11 month relationship with him was a sexless one.


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## Cre8ify

If ever there were a good place to insert a man-up mantra, lovelygirl has teed it up to perfection:

_Her emotions are a hurricane, her soul a saboteur. Think of yourself as a bulwark against her tempest. When she grasps for a pillar to steady herself against the whipping winds or yearns for an authority figure to foil her worst instincts, it is you who has to be there…strong, solid, unshakeable and immoveable._


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## CorkonAFork

I come from a codependent relationship, and can tell you I certainly failed a number of these tests. It has caused myself to feel a considerable amount of resentment. Both for my wife for doing it, and for me, not standing up for myself and my boundaries.


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