# is this emotional abuse? update



## Chaotic (Jul 6, 2013)

This is my original story, if anyone is interested:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/95721-emotional-abuse.html

Short version is that my husband is really easily stressed, and when he's stressed he loses his temper in big, scary ways. He throws things, pounds his fist on tables or dashboards, screams and swears at me, gets irrational, etc. He also has a tendency to be patronizing, negative and sarcastic, though when he's NOT stressed he can be very sweet and charming. I have told him repeatedly that his temper scares me and he has shrugged off my concerns. I asked him a couple times this past spring if he would go to MC with me and he refused. I started going to IC by myself and was leaning toward divorce.

Last Saturday morning we had a huge argument that started because he was angry at my emotional distance. I told him that I don't want to be vulnerable in front of him, that he scares me, that I feel unsafe around him and I don't trust him. He has problems with chronic back pain due to an accident and surgery several years ago, and he screamed at me that I should find a way to get him off his meds if I don't want him to be so angry. (He was like this long before the back problems, though.) He kept yelling and threw a pill bottle across the room and so I left and shut myself in the bathroom for a little while. When I came out, he resumed screaming, and threatened to go stay with his parents for a few weeks (who live a couple hours away). I told him "no, I'll move out, I'll get an apartment and move out within the next two weeks," and he yelled "FINE!!" Then he started yelling that he can't control himself or his anger when he's on meds, and I said that was one more reason for me to move out. Then he started yelling that he couldn't believe I would think that he'd be violent or hurt me, and that he'd been thinking of killing himself last week and I was just making his life harder by not trusting him. At one point he was actually jumping up and down and waving his fists and screaming, like an adult version of a toddler tantrum. It would've been funny if I weren't so upset and scared.

Anyway, we both left for work. Throughout the day he sent me texts saying that he was so sorry, that he was puking and having panic attacks, that he wanted to talk to me and he didn't want me to move out. When I got home, he was sitting on the floor surrounded by photo albums from when we first started dating, looking at pictures and crying. He begged me to give him another chance, begged me not to leave, told me he'd do anything if I'd stay, etc, etc. He said he wants to go to MC right now, immediately. I told him that his anger makes me feel unsafe, unloved, disrespected and demeaned. (I'd rehearsed that sentence in the car and delivered it firmly.) He said that his dad was abusive when he was a kid and he couldn't believe he'd turned out the same way and he wants to change. I told him I still thought it would be a good idea for me to move out for awhile, just so we could each have some distance and get our heads on straight, and he got really frantic and said he can't handle the house on his own and I can't move out. I told him I'd help pay for the mortgage and everything even if I move out, and he said no, he *CAN'T HANDLE* the house and taking care of it and he *NEEDS* me to stay. He seemed panic-stricken.

Anyway in the end I told him I'd give him another chance, I'd stay, we can work on it. I didn't know what else to do. He was crying and pleading with me and this is my husband. I have read enough books on abuse and anger to know that this might just be part of the cycle, and he might not change at all. We are going away for a vacation for a week, and when we get back I am bringing him to my IC to see if she can refer us to MC and/or refer him to his own IC. When I called her, she asked, "are you sure you want to try to save this relationship?" and I didn't even know what to say.

Opinions from the outside looking in are appreciated. Thanks for your patience. I feel very lost.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Wow, he really lost it that time. I am so sorry you had to deal with that. He truly needs help. 

I would say to give yourself a time limit. If within X amount of time, you dont see any change or real improvement, then go ahead and move out, if thats what you want. You will have to find the courage to let him go on his own, despite any more childish outbursts, and his insistence that he cant handle it. He is a grown man and should be capable of taking care of himself and running his own life. You dont want to be enabling him by staying. i wish you luck and hope he can get himself on an even keel.


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## bunny23 (May 19, 2011)

Yes he is controlling and abusive.

I have a pretty rare neurological disorder and have been on pain meds (yes there are kinds that make you angry) if you are comfortable pm or write what he is on.

Either way, your story is a bit like mine. This stuff just escalated.

You cannot be responsible for his actions or inactions.


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## bunny23 (May 19, 2011)

BTW I went to MC and he went on his own also. Well that just turned into him manipulating the counselor and then having fits/crying why aren't things working (ummm after like 1 session). Then throwing things, threatening suicide etc etc 

Finally I saw an abuse counselor. She said that MC will not work and she is stunned this person saw us and didn't report or take my side seriously.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

You are not ready to leave yet.

Yes, he is abusive & controlling. He emotionally blackmails you to stay with him & it works.

The only way he will possibly change into a non-abusive person is with a program specifically designed for partner abusers & even those programs have a very small success rate.

Eventually you will leave. If you don't have children yet, please do not because he could abuse them as well.

Please read "Why Does He Do That?"


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Note that when you locked yourself in a room he stopped his angry outburst. When you came out again he started it up again. A tantrum needs an audience. He has complete control over his anger. IT’s a tool.

Get the book “The Dance of Anger: A Woman's Guide to Changing the Patterns of Intimate Relationships”, by Harriet Lerner

It helped me a lot. When he starts his angry outbursts you need to go another room, for a walk , etc. Just get away from him. Tell him that it’s his responsibility to calm himself down. You will not stay around him when he acts like that.

There are classes and counseling available for people with his problem. His go to these have to be part of your agreement to give him one more chance.


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## Chaotic (Jul 6, 2013)

I've read "Why Does He Do That" a couple times. I guess that's why I don't have a lot of hope for us long term, though at the same time I don't know how I can refuse to give him another chance.

It bothers me that he got so upset and panicked that I ended up being basically manipulated into not moving out. I really could use the space but he falls apart so completely and quickly that I'm kind of afraid to leave him alone.


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## GA HEART (Oct 18, 2011)

You are not, will not ever be, responsible for his actions. If you leave, even for a short period of time, and he chooses to "do" something.....it is on him and NOT you. 

I was in an emotionally abusive marriage for close to 12 years. It wasn't quite this bad, but I cannot begin to tell you how much HAPPIER I am now that I am out of it. I loved him with everything I had, but this behavior can kill that love. I was a co-dependent, had a lower self esteem than I even knew. Ultimately it was him that ended the relationship (he had BPD.) 

I feel for you. You are in a very tough spot. Give him a chance if you wish, but know that true change can only happen if HE wants it to. All the wishing in the world won't make it happen. Take care of YOU and the rest will work out the way it's supposed to.


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## scatty (Mar 15, 2013)

I think he should get at the very least, intensive outpatient for his addiction. It can cause mood swings, excessive temper, and scarier behavior. You should make this a requirement to stay in the marriage.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Chaotic said:


> ... I ended up being basically manipulated into not moving out. ... I'm kind of afraid to leave him alone.


I think this is where you need to reprogram your thinking. First, you were manipulated, but you allowed it. You ended up being manipulated because you chose to give him the power to make the decision for you to stay. If you didn't want to stay, you wouldn't. 

Second, you are afraid to leave him alone Why? You are not responsible for what your husband chooses to do ... or not do. If he decides to kill himself, that is a decision he makes for himself.

I see a lack of boundaries and a lack of the ability to discern who is responsible for what. You are responsible for you. Period. You do not possess the power to make your husband do anything. Just as he does not have similar power over you.

I couldn't stay with a man who behaves like your husband, but that's me. All I can tell you is when the pain of staying exceeds the pain of leaving, you will leave.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Chaotic, you seem to be describing the classic traits of IED (Intermittent Explosive Disorder), which is believed to have a lifetime prevalence of 4% to 7% in adults. If your IC has not already given you a candid assessment of what you are dealing with, I suggest you see a clinical psychologist who will do so. Of course, without your H being there, the psych cannot render a formal diagnosis. He can, however, give you a candid opinion, e.g., "it sure sounds to me like he is exhibiting strong traits of ...." 

I note that, even if your H is evaluated by a psych, the psych will not make a diagnosis of IED until he has first ruled out BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), as well as ASPD. Significantly, the key feature of BPD is the inability to control one's own emotions. Indeed, a large share of the psychiatric community has been lobbying for 20 years to change this disorder's name from "BPD" to "Emotional Regulation Disorder."

I mention this because you seem to be describing your H as often behaving like a young child -- being unable to regulate his own emotions. This BPD trait is so evident in the frequent temper tantrums and hissy fits you describe.

Most of the nine BPD traits, however, are absent from your description of your H's behavior. The inability to trust, for example, is never mentioned. If it were occurring, you should be seeing frequent occurrences of irrational jealousy -- which you do not talk about. 

Another missing BPD trait is the presence of a fragile, unstable self image. A third missing trait is a repeated cycle of pushing you away (by starting arguments over nothing) and then pulling you back (by being extra loving). Further, you also should be describing a strong fear of abandonment and engulfment. 

Moreover, the very short duration of your H's rages (usually lasting only a few minutes to an hour at most) is more characteristic of IED, not BPD. Whereas IED rages typically last about an hour or less -- as you are describing -- BPD rages usually last about five hours (and sometimes as long as 18 hours). Another difference is that, whereas IED rages tend to be directed outward mostly to events and other people -- as you describe -- BPD rages tend to be directed toward the spouse, who is blamed for every misfortune (real or imagined). 

Finally, I note that, if your H actually does have strong traits of IED or BPD, going to a MC likely will be a total waste of time because his issues would go far beyond a simple lack of communication skills. What would be needed, instead, is a psychologist for weekly therapy and a psychiatrist (seen about once every 3 months) for medication.

If you would like to read more about IED, I suggest you start with the Mayo Clinic overview of IED at Intermittent explosive disorder - MayoClinic.com. If you would like to read more about BPD traits, an easy place to start is my description of them in my post at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. Take care, Chaotic.


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## Chaotic (Jul 6, 2013)

You know, my therapist had me read the description of IED during one of my sessions and asked if it sounded familiar. It was a very clinical description and I wasn't really sure, but it's funny that you are seeing the same thing my therapist saw.

I have wondered about BPD, but he's not impulsive, he's actually super cautious about most things. He's very jealous of my close friendships, but not jealous in a romantic, man-woman way. He does sometimes get angry and randomly accuse me of "hiding things from him", which could be a trust issue. If he's doing the push-pull, it's very low-key and not obvious enough for me to really notice.

I know it's kind of a cliche for unhappy spouses to pin personality disorders or whatever on their wives or husbands, but he's behaved so outrageously at times that I don't know what else to think. 

Other times he seems perfectly normal. Since I agreed to not leave, he's been happy and seemingly very normal. Anyone who walked into our house would think I'd made all of this up, since right now he doesn't seem at all like a person who is capable of the temper tantrums I've seen him throw.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Yes, it's abusive. Now that you have decided to stay, you need to be watching carefully to make sure he is taking action to change the problem. If he's not, I'd encourage you to start putting an exit plan into place in a way he won't see until you've already gone. (Save money, make your living arrangements, and pack and leave when the time is right.)


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## Chaotic (Jul 6, 2013)

Prodigal said:


> I see a lack of boundaries and a lack of the ability to discern who is responsible for what. You are responsible for you. Period. You do not possess the power to make your husband do anything. Just as he does not have similar power over you.



Yeah. I know. I should probably write this on my arm. 

Thanks to everyone for the advice and kind words. I understand in my head that my husband needs a lot of help, and that this marriage is most likely not going to work. At the same time, it's so easy to get sucked into his "but I love you more than anything, don't leave me, I'm really gonna change" and give this another chance. I think this is his last chance, though. I feel ready to bolt at the slightest provocation at this point.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Chaotic said:


> I have wondered about BPD, but *he's not impulsive*, he's actually super cautious about most things.


Chaotic, that's another reason I suggested you read about IED. Ironically, although IED is categorized together with "Impulse Control and Conduct Disorders," IED sufferers typically are _not impulsive_. Instead, they usually "seem perfectly normal" -- as you say -- and then suddenly lose their impulse control only during the rage episode. This normality, combined with the sudden abnormal outbursts, is why IED has "Intermittent" in its name. BPDers, in contrast, tend to be impulsive on a regular basis.


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## Chaotic (Jul 6, 2013)

We are currently on vacation and he's kissing up constantly. Offering back-rubs, being affectionate, being far more considerate in general than he ever is, etc, etc.

It's only been 8 days since he was screaming and swearing at me (well, the most recent time was 8 days ago) and I feel creeped out by his over the top good-husband behavior and then I feel guilty for being creeped out when he's trying.

Just wanted to vent/update. Is this normal to feel creeped out by sudden good behavior? My skin crawls when he hugs me.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

IED? Seriously?

It seems that the medical world turns everything into a disorder these days.

IED sounds more like "spoiled child syndrome" to me. Most parents had a foolproof cure for that about 20 years ago. Seemed to have a 99.9% effective cure rate, too. However, in today's society they would classify the cure as "intermittent Smack some respect into your kids Syndrome"


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## Chaotic (Jul 6, 2013)

Sorry to resurrect this thread, just wanted to update.

My H came to one of my IC sessions with me and my therapist said she would take us on in MC if we both wanted to. ?? She had previously told me in IC that his behavior was abusive and had recommended I go to an abuse support group, I don't know why she said now that she'd take us on in MC? I had told her I wasn't ready to leave him yet, and he is (now) dying to do MC and said so. And he can be charming when he wants, I don't know if she was pulled in by his "I try so hard, poor me" act? He has also started taking anti-anxiety meds.

I am going to try to work on this, though, because I'm really NOT ready to leave, though on the other hand the love and trust I used to have for him is so eroded that I don't know if it will grow back. He has mostly been on his best behavior since I threatened to leave. He has made one or two insulting "jokes" and has gotten unreasonably angry at traffic, though the anger never got turned on me. Other than that he's been almost weirdly nice, offering to buy me things and constantly wanting to touch me (back rubs, petting my hair) which kind of weirds me out.

The thing is that he's done this (his best behavior) before, after big fights, and it has never lasted more than three months. It's hard for me to believe that this time will be any different, MC or no MC. And the anti-anxiety drugs are a great step for him, but he's been a jerk to me many times when he's not been anxious, so I don't see how this will fix our problems.

I don't know if MC is really going to help at this point, but I honestly don't know what else to do other than leave, and I'm just not there yet. Thanks for any advice/support.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Since you are going to do MC right now, maybe you can use this window to address his anger. He can obviously control himself. If he is serious about changing he can learn anger management and how to take care of his own anger, frustrations, etc in a healthy way.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

Chaotic said:


> TI told him I still thought it would be a good idea for me to move out for awhile, just so we could each have some distance and get our heads on straight, and he got really frantic and said he can't handle the house on his own and I can't move out. I told him I'd help pay for the mortgage and everything even if I move out, and he said no, he *CAN'T HANDLE* the house and taking care of it and he *NEEDS* me to stay. * He seemed panic-stricken.*


Excellent. He's terrified of losing you. Step 1 complete



Chaotic said:


> Anyway in the end I told him I'd give him another chance...


Ooops. Back to square one.

No consequences? Want to guess how much THAT helped him?

Anyhow, this is where I'd normally start giving you advice as a reformed abuser, and tell you how the "scared straight/kick in the gut" strategy can help him. But instead, everyone will just starts
piling on me. Everyone hates an abuser and feel good about putting them down. God forbid they should ever learn from one.

Just go ahead and leave him. It worked for my wife.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

Chaotic said:


> the love and trust I used to have for him is so eroded that I don't know if it will grow back.


Sorry. I should have read farther. It won't. Definitely end it and start working on you. He will be fixed once you leave him. Work on you now.


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

alphaomega said:


> IED? Seriously?
> 
> It seems that the medical world turns everything into a disorder these days.
> 
> IED sounds more like "spoiled child syndrome" to me. Most parents had a foolproof cure for that about 20 years ago. Seemed to have a 99.9% effective cure rate, too. However, in today's society they would classify the cure as "intermittent Smack some respect into your kids Syndrome"


I agree. Why do people behave badly? Because they can.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

I have a close friend whose husband acts like this about a few times per year. I explained to her that it was indeed abuse and that she should count the amount of time between outbursts. If the time increases, she's on the right track. Her husband does not do this at work with colleagues, or friends, or other acquaintances.

That's what I mean. Disorder or not. That's not the issue. There have to be some sort of consequences for unacceptable behavior in order to try to make it stop.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## whattodoskidoo (Sep 13, 2013)

Get the book Why Does He do That? by Lundy Bancroft


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## 2galsmom (Feb 14, 2013)

You are in an abusive relationship, there is no doubt about it. Be very careful to keep your sanity. The looking at photo albums and crying - abusive.

What! How can that be?

You should educate yourself on emotional and psychological abuse, often the violence anger and belittling will be accompanied by "I will commit suicide without you, if your leave me I will be lost, you are MY LIFE!" etc. etc. It is bullsh*t done to regain control and also for their benefit, when they are spewing that crap they actually "believe" it.

Abuse is about control, when you pull away to protect yourself he perhaps sees it as a loss of his control on you thus the roses, "heartfelt" apologies followed shortly later by the physical temper tantrums which escalate over time and they go from punching the wall to punching you.

You are not responsible to get him off pills. Is he addicted to pain meds? You are not responsible for his loss of temper. Abusive spouses are relentless in their pursuit of domination and control and you need to take care of yourself otherwise they will break you, you are human.


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## Chaotic (Jul 6, 2013)

He's not really addicted to pain pills, they're prescription and he doesn't take more than he's supposed to. 

I guess my question now is more along the lines of: has anyone ever seen MC work in a situation like this? Am I delaying the inevitable by trying MC? I have read "Why Does He Do That", so I know that MC isn't really recommended in cases like this, but my therapist said it was worth a try, which made me think maybe there are various schools of thought on it?

I feel like I'm doing what I can (going to MC, working on being more assertive) to save my marriage, but I don't know if it's too little too late or if he's going to be willing to stick with it long-term, or how much time I should give MC to see if it's helping.


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## 2galsmom (Feb 14, 2013)

The issue is, there is no reason for him to treat you poorly. That is why MC fails as it did in my case. You end up getting a list of things he wants you to do so he doesn't "do that" - you complete the list and yet he still does it.

Looking back I wished I had cut him out before I wasted so much time energy on listening to all of his lies and coming to believe them myself, that is why I warn you of the "crazy making" that comes with emotional abuse.

But here is what MC can do, in the end you can say you tried everything to save the marriage. I took my ex to a heart doctor when the panic attacks started, we went to a psychologist and then a psychiatrist. I then tried what was the WORST advice EVER and that was offering him more sex. I went to church every Sunday.

The harder I tried to save the marriage the WORSE he got, "just do things my way and listen to me." Well I tried that too and lost my mind, literally.

I never want to see the guy again and for me, that is a gift from God. I have ZERO guilt about my divorce and my pursuit of eliminating his visitation, a restraining order helps.

Please whatever you do, do NOT isolate yourself from others so you can keep your wits about you. Go through all the things you think you have to do to "save" your marriage but remember there is ZERO excuse for abuse and be prepared to save yourself.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> Note that when you locked yourself in a room he stopped his angry outburst. When you came out again he started it up again. A tantrum needs an audience. He has complete control over his anger. IT’s a tool. ... When he starts his angry outbursts you need to go another room, for a walk , etc. Just get away from him. Tell him that it’s his responsibility to calm himself down. You will not stay around him when he acts like that.


I know we've discussed this before but I'll reiterate for new readers: Take this farther. If you leave the room and he starts up as soon as you return to the room, leave the house for a walk. If when you return from the walk and he starts up again, take the car keys and go for a drive for a few hours. If he starts up again when you return, pack an overnight bag and go to a hotel. If he starts up again when you come back the next day, pack for a 3-day stay and go away for several days. If he starts up as soon as you return, go stay with someone for a week. If he starts up again as soon as you return, tell him you're moving out for a while.

In other words, each time he tries to bully you, ramp up the CONSEQUENCE. He's not an idiot. He'll figure out that the more he does it, the more 'punishment' he gets.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Chaotic said:


> I really could use the space but he falls apart so completely and quickly that I'm kind of afraid to leave him alone.


 What YOU need to be working on right now is learning, through IC, how to stop being his mother. The book The Dance Of Anger helps with that.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Chaotic said:


> Yeah. I know. I should probably write this on my arm.


No, write it in lipstick on your bathroom mirror - where you BOTH can read it every day.


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## Navy3 (Apr 27, 2012)

hi, i'm in a abusive relationship - even now that's hard to say. 

i'm in the "promises, I love you's, & kissing stage". seeing it for what it is, is so very hard, so painful. stand in your truth. the pit of denial will drag you to the darkest depth's.

i'm not ready to leave. we went to MC years ago, he conned me into believing we were in a "better place" & reverted back to type. MC is not recommended for abusive relationships - my husband is a real charmer... tells me what a great guy people at work say he is... he can be...but his other side scares the life out of me. 

it does escalate, it might be slowly,it might be in the blink of an eye... the fear of it is terrifying, breath taking, you question yourself, you blame yourself, wonder if it's "my fault", you end up you can't eat, you over eat, you feel sick, panic attacks, your exhausted, you can't sleep, your energy is gone, your spirit is worn out, trust eroded away will never be what it was, you get depressed, you cry, you get beyond tears, he scares you, you know this is not ok, you run out of ideas.

ready Lundy's book. your not alone.


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