# Just found out, going nuts



## TroubledInMI

Thank God I found this place. Although, judging by the sheer number of newbies like myself, I'm unsure how much comfort I will really find. This is a club no one wants to be in. It seems infidelity is rampant. My d-day was a few days ago, and like just about everyone else who's gone through this, I couldn't believe that MY wife would ever do what she's done.

First, though, in the spirit of honesty, I have a confession. I myself cheated on my wife four years ago. I never thought I would in a million years. Like many marriages, we forgot how to communicate, forgot how to really pay attention to one another, read each other and respond correctly to each other's needs. And we drifted apart, never really talked about anything important, stopped sharing hopes, our sex life went to nearly nil, and what there was of it was unfulfilling for us both. An opportunity came along, I made a bad decision, which I rationalized, which led to another, which I justified, etc., and the next thing you know, I was having a sexual affair. So I am fully aware of what the WS fog is all about. I never fell in love with the OP, never really developed any sort of strong romantic connection, but did really enjoy the attention and the sex. It made me feel all those things that my W made me feel when our love was new. The A lasted a few months before I was caught, but not once during the entire time had I ever considered leaving my W. I loved her, and I admit, I was cake-eating. Of course, the A devastated my W, created significant additional depression on top of other long-term (non-marriage, since childhood) depression. I tried some counseling, we tried some counseling, and I thought things were getting better. She had her triggers, of course, but I did the best I could to be agreeable, open, gave her access to my phone, email, whatever she wanted. I've made every effort to be as transparent as possible. However, I think what we really had was a false reconciliation, and swept too many issues under the rug. Almost three years after her d-day, she had a small breakdown, seemed desperate, and wasn't sure she could do this anymore. I asked what I could do, she asked if we could move. I didn't hesitate. I said absolutely. We put the house on the market, immediately shopped for a new one in another state hundreds of miles away, found one, and moved within months. Given the crap market, our old house sat for a year, and we took a huge loss. But it hasn't caused financial strain, and I had real hopes that getting a fresh start would help our recovery. But she continued to be unhappy. I continued to do all the wrong things in terms of reading her needs, responding to them, and though I thought I was being the best husband I could be, she was equally continuing to do all the wrong things in terms of communicating her needs in a way I could understand. Instead, she has a habit of bottling them up until the cork blows off. See a familiar pattern here? I've spent all weekend reading as much as I possibly can, been lurking on this site, and our journey has been so textbook that I could take a dozen other stories and insert our names in them. Now on to my d-day.


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## Mr. Self Destruct

Okay, You cheated on her first and now you can't understand why she would do it? Come on man. You set the precedent and even though you regret it, your wife has probably fantasized about getting involved in an extra marital affair ever since her own Dday. Sorry, but I dont feel bad for you. You are a grown man that took a vow to be there for your wife until the end of time. You screwed up and now you are the one feeling bad. I have been betrayed by my wife and i was faithful to her for 19 years. 
Karma is a ***** dude. Good luck (you will need it).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TroubledInMI

In May, I started to notice a change in mood in my W. She was unusually withdrawn, distant. I pressed a little, but she assured me she was just tired. She worked a lot, requiring a lot of travel (we both travel a lot for work, which is not a good thing I now realize, for our marriage). She had not been sleeping well, so I felt I understood. Later, I pressed again, and she nearly broke down in tears. We sat down, and for the first time in years, had a real heart to heart. I asked her to open up to me and really tell me what was going on, and she said she had been afraid to tell me her feelings because she loved me and didn't want to hurt me. But she did. She confessed that she had been desperately unhappy, wasn't sure she was in love with me, but that despite all I had done that I was a good man. She just wasn't sure she wanted to be married to me anymore. Of course, that crushed me, as she feared, but I manned up and tried to remain calm and open. I talked her into not doing anything rash. She wanted a little time, so she went to her parents (another state) for a week to cool off and think things through. Having been a WH myself, I knew the flags, so I confirmed she actually went to her parents. She came back, still wasn't sure how she felt. I called her at work one day to talk a bit, and she was talking about leaving. Of course, I did all the wrong things right in the script like crying, showing weakness, begging her not to leave me, I'll change, etc etc. I got her to agree to giving us until the end of the year. I tried everything (at least I thought I was) to be the man she fell in love with. Tried to never complain about anything, always looked for things to notice and compliment her on, tried to be very agreeable (but not a doormat), and try to focus on being happy. I lost a little weight, did more around the house, etc. She started to change, too. She lost a little weight, bought some sexy swim suits, paid more attention to her appearance, etc. Our sex life sort of took off. I was enjoying my wife, and entered the BS fog. Things appeared to be going well for a while, but then she started to get real "busy" with work. She travels, like I said, a lot, and we normally only get three-day weekends together. All of sudden, work got busy for her, and she needed to stay out of town on the occasional Friday, and sometimes leave earlier than usual on Sunday. She started having trouble sleeping again, and once I woke up at like 3 am to find out on the deck smoking. She said she couldn't sleep, so tried to read and smoke out on the deck. It wasn't at the forefront of my mind at the time, but she had her phone with her. See the pattern? So fast forward to Labor Day. She tells me several weeks in advance that she will have to work at her out of town job that weekend because of a huge project at work. I was not happy about it, but she said the client liked to do these things over holidays to minimize system disruptions. Being we do the same job, I understood. Not happy, but I've seen that. I offered to come there. She of course, put me off with the "oh, you know how swamped I'll be, you'll just be in the hotel all day and night". Ok, flags flags flags. When the weekend approached, I asked again about coming down ("you gotta eat, you gotta sleep, I could see you then" I said), and again she put me off.

I want to get this all off my chest, so breaking up the posts...


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## MattMatt

So, you cheated, she cheated.

You can either divorce or reconcile. Both options involve hard work. And counselling.

And could you please use paragraphs with breaks? They help my tired old eyes!


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## TroubledInMI

Ok, no, I'm not looking for sympathy here, man. I know what I did. I've been walking that path. I haven't been doing the right things since my A, because I didn't know what all the right things to do were. I'm learning now. It may be too late. I hope not. I'm hear for advice. But I know how to take a beating too. I deserve it.

Ok, so I start digging, I find irrefutable evidence of the affair, find out she's not even in the town she's supposed to be. Long story short, I uncovered evidence of an actual PA (hotel rooms, etc) going back to June, but thinking back, an EA probably started sooner, hence the unnoticed flags in May. I texted her, confronting her, but not in your typical irate crazy BH way. I've walked her path. I was shocked. Ok, so I'm naive, just like everyone else, but I was shocked, and hurt, and incredulous. Just because I did it, doesn't mean I couldn't experience the same emotions. But I didn't approach her that way. She showed me the grandest amount of compassion when my A was discovered. She was plenty pissed, no doubt about that, but she didn't ask for a D, didn't throw me out of the house, and she endured a level of shame I would never wish on anyone. So when this happened to ME, my own shame and disgust at my prior actions, which I also believed (as you suggest) probably influenced her to make some bad decisions, was at fault here. Don't get me wrong, I don't condone what she did, I won't take responsibility for her decisions, but I do absolutely understand them. I don't wish our situation on anyone else who comes across this thread. But I've scouring the board looking for a similar situation where the WH becomes the BH, but haven't stumbled upon it. So I simply, like everyone else, want to share my situation and take whatever abuse/advice comes my way.


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## MattMatt

TroubledInMI said:


> Ok, no, I'm not looking for sympathy here, man. I know what I did. I've been walking that path. I haven't been doing the right things since my A, because I didn't know what all the right things to do were. I'm learning now. It may be too late. I hope not. I'm hear for advice. But I know how to take a beating too. I deserve it.
> 
> Ok, so I start digging, I find irrefutable evidence of the affair, find out she's not even in the town she's supposed to be. Long story short, I uncovered evidence of an actual PA (hotel rooms, etc) going back to June, but thinking back, an EA probably started sooner, hence the unnoticed flags in May. I texted her, confronting her, but not in your typical irate crazy BH way. I've walked her path. I was shocked. Ok, so I'm naive, just like everyone else, but I was shocked, and hurt, and incredulous. Just because I did it, doesn't mean I couldn't experience the same emotions. But I didn't approach her that way. She showed me the grandest amount of compassion when my A was discovered. She was plenty pissed, no doubt about that, but she didn't ask for a D, didn't throw me out of the house, and she endured a level of shame I would never wish on anyone. So when this happened to ME, my own shame and disgust at my prior actions, which I also believed (as you suggest) probably influenced her to make some bad decisions, was at fault here. Don't get me wrong, I don't condone what she did, I won't take responsibility for her decisions, but I do absolutely understand them. I don't wish our situation on anyone else who comes across this thread. But I've scouring the board looking for a similar situation where the WH becomes the BH, but haven't stumbled upon it. So I simply, like everyone else, want to share my situation and take whatever abuse/advice comes my way.


You get some sympathy from me. Why? Been in your situation, though my wife had an affair and I had a stupid revenge affair.


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## TroubledInMI

Yeah, I know the options. She basically went dark over the weekend. Didn't bother to come home despite it not being work related after all. Would not call me, text me, email me, or answer any of my attempts. So I let it go, until today. She's still out of town, though now actually at work where she's supposed to be. I texted her this morning, and asked if she would at least talk to me. She agreed. She actually texted me and said she was horrified about what had happened, and deeply sorry for what she was putting me through, and that no one should ever have to go through that. Before you go thinking I'm some sort of unrepentant bastard, my response was that I, of all people, could understand. And that the turn of events had made me truly realize what I had done to her. I always thought I had come to terms, but I don't a WS can really understand the damage they cause until they really walk a mile in the BS' shoes. And I started my walk this weekend. I wasn't pissed off at my W. I don't hate her. I hate myself, folks.


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## MattMatt

TroubledInMI said:


> Yeah, I know the options. She basically went dark over the weekend. Didn't bother to come home despite it not being work related after all. Would not call me, text me, email me, or answer any of my attempts. So I let it go, until today. She's still out of town, though now actually at work where she's supposed to be. I texted her this morning, and asked if she would at least talk to me. She agreed. She actually texted me and said she was horrified about what had happened, and deeply sorry for what she was putting me through, and that no one should ever have to go through that. Before you go thinking I'm some sort of unrepentant bastard, my response was that I, of all people, could understand. And that the turn of events had made me truly realize what I had done to her. I always thought I had come to terms, but I don't a WS can really understand the damage they cause until they really walk a mile in the BS' shoes. And I started my walk this weekend. I wasn't pissed off at my W. I don't hate her. I hate myself, folks.


Try not to hate yourself, mate! You have to be strong to help your wife fight her way through the fog, if that's what she wants.


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## TroubledInMI

So we talk today for several hours, and I tried to make my case as plainly as possible. I love her. I don't forgive her right this second, but I know I will. I want our marriage to work. I've spent the last four days scouring these forums and others, and have identified a laundry list of things I've not been doing right that helped foster an environment where this could happen. And I let her know i was willing to go to the mat to save the marriage, but that meant nothing if she didn't want to. I also asked her some questions from a BH standpoint, to test her willingness to be honest about the affair. She was, about most of it, but is obviously holding back (trickle truth, I knew it was coming). I asked why she wouldn't talk to me earlier, as I had been "swinging in the wind" for days, and she said she was afraid of my reaction (I'm an incredibly gentle man, never violent, not ever). She was afraid I would be furious (naturally). She did, however, indicate that she wanted to come home, but wasn't sure if she'd find her stuff on the lawn, or me moved out. We talked a long time, about my mistakes, some of hers. I pried on the A a bit to try and get a sense of how deep her affection might be. Of course she lied and minimized it. She even agreed to talking about reconciliation. I'm a former WH, so I have to tread lightly. But I won't be a doormat. I ended my A immediately, with no contact, and no conditions. No closure, no lingering, etc. I basically set down the same condition for her. I said she was welcome to come home immediately if it was truly going to be a home. If she could terminate her A immediately, with no contact, no conditions, we have a chance at R. She can come back, and can begin to walk that path, which we both know will be long and difficult. If she doesn't, we have zero chance, and I won't cling to a false hope while being her plan B. Maybe that makes me a ****, but I'm willing to everything to save the marriage to a wonderful woman who, like everyone else, is flawed, but I still want her, and I want to do what it takes. But I won't be plan B.


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## warlock07

Who was the OM ? Don't let the guilt of your own affair stop you from digging the truth. Your wife is more dangerous than you in that respect. She knew all the pain associated with infidelity but still chose to do it. So you need to be really really careful. Right now, she is in guilt mode but the reality is that she lost respect for you. Whether she will ever find the respect will depend on how you act from today.


I would really be curious on what she did last week. Did her plan A fail ?


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## MattMatt

warlock07 said:


> Who was the OM ? Don't let the guilt of your own affair stop you from digging the truth. Your wife is more dangerous than you in that respect. She knew all the pain associated with infidelity but still chose to do it. So you need to be really really careful. Right now, she is in guilt mode but the reality is that she lost respect for you. Whether she will ever find the respect will depend on how you act from today.
> 
> 
> I would really be curious on what she did last week. Did her plan A fail ?


When I had my revenge affair I had no plan A or plan B. I just wanted to stop hurting and stop feeling broken and so damn useless!


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## TroubledInMI

So not 30 minutes after hanging up with me, she immediately goes into damage control mode with the OM. Of course now I'm pissed. Fine, so maybe my right to be pissed is diminished given my past behavior, but I love this woman and I'm not giving her up without a fight. I know all the fog now. Her fog. My fog. I've been on both sides, been through it, had not a clue what I was doing, and even now, I'm trying to get a footing. But I know about the fog. He's in it. She's in it. So I've been all over this sight and the affaircare site (excellent by the way), and I've completed the first few steps.

(1) I've collected my evidence. I have zero desire to D my W and try and screw her in court or anything. She works just as hard as I do, has always been my partner, and is entitled to her share. But, I had to have absolute proof so there could be no denial, no coverup, and no way for her or her BF to try and railroad me, either.
(2) I've confronted her (so then of course he knows). I've also dug up everything I can on this guy. I know where he works, where he lives, and all about his wife and kids. I asked her if she was aware he had a family, and I got mixed messages about them being estranged... but living in the same house... but separately... unhappy for years... more fog speak.
(3) I would love to disclose, but am trying to consider very carefully who I pick for this. I'm hesitant to involve her parents or my family, as I simply hear far too many stories about this backfiring. Same goes with friends. When my A was discovered, it was a bloody mess. EVERYONE except for our mutual familes found out, and only because they live in other states. But basically, all of our friends knew. Half of them deserted us either because I was the world's biggest a$$hole for destroying the world's most wonderful woman, or because she was biggest full for not kicking me to the curb. The few friends we had left, we left behind when we moved. Our frequent travel has not garnered a large circle of close friends here, though we still keep in touch with the old ones. I'm hesitant to involve them, because dragging friends into it seems unlikely to help. But I am considering. I can't think of anyone else to "disclose" this to.
(4) After discovering my WW and the OM's attempts to cover their tracks and their mutual head-scratching at how I knew what all I knew, and how they plan to be more discrete, and the ever-sickening-kick-in-the-balls sh*t no one should ever hear their spouse say to another person, I got really pissed. I emailed HIS W and HIS employer, detailed the affair, and that I wanted it to stop. In the employer mail, I even went so far as to suggest it might be in the company's best interest to mitigate whatever sexual harassment suits might ensue.

That's where I'm at now. I'm sure they're both doing all they can to cover their tracks. It sort of a moot point now, though. I have what I need. They haven't been all that careful. What I guess I'm really looking for on this forum besides a place to vent my heartache, is any solid advice or encouragement I can get on how to salvage this. I know our odds are bleak. We have a sh*t history, she's deep in the fog, he's not just gonna let go that easily, he's a knight in shining armor, and I'm a big bag of crap in her eyes. I don't know how much influence his W or employer will have, especially if his marriage is already down the tubes. And I know all the statistics, familiar with the research, and the odds of her having a successful relationship with him are nearly zero. She'll have a D to go through with an H who is not going to go down without a fight, and he'll have his own D to go through, with a couple kids in the mix. They live in different states. Their relationship was doomed from the first glance. But that's reality. She's 1000 miles from reality right now. Jesus. I can't even think about any of this without grieving for her due to my indiscretions.


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## Shaggy

Have you exposed the OM to his wife or gf?

Edit- ok I see you've expose him. Great job. Has his wife reacted to you?


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## warlock07

Just keep in mind. Don't trust her for sometime. Don';t give her the benefit of doubt. Trust only what you can verify.. She is not the same as you. She cheats differently. Trust can wait.

And make sure his wife intercepts the mail, not him(call and verify). There is a poster who did the same(email) and the OM got to it first and replied back as his wife.


What is she doing now ? Is she still in the house? 

How old are you guys?


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## warlock07

> After discovering my WW and the OM's attempts to cover their tracks and their mutual head-scratching at how I knew what all I knew, and how they plan to be more discrete, and the ever-sickening-kick-in-the-balls sh*t no one should ever hear their spouse say to another person, I got really pissed.


When did this happen?


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## TroubledInMI

She has not. Just did that today, though. Not sure she's received it. I have his email, and her email, and while they are different, no idea if he has access and intercepted it. I also found her number, tried to call, went to vm. I did NOT want to leave a vm. I want to hear her voice. For all I know, she may think me crazy and tell me to go to hell. Never can know. In case she does get it, I'll give it a day or so to see if I can detect any fallout on my end. If I don't, then I may continue to try and reach her. If I could find either the OM or his W on facebook, I'd broaden this exposure. So far, I've minimized my WW's exposure to a single personal friend of ours, who has been giving lots of support. She would expect that, though, since we have been close friends for many many years. I don't expect his knowing everything will have any influence on her. I need to pick my disclosure/exposure targets such that they have maximum influence, and minimum degradation on any chance I have a reconciliation. I'm hesitant to shame her any more than necessary. I'll do what I need to do, I suppose, but I don't want to piss away the even 1% chance I have at saving this. He's going to the wolves, if I can help it.


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## TroubledInMI

Sorry if my replies are out of sync with you guys. I really appreciate the rapid responses. It really is comforting.

To clarify: confrontation was done over the weekend, and again today, lots of fog speak and lies today, cover-up discovered today, so exposure done today, no word from OM's spouse yet,


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## underwater2010

There is not much you can do any further. If you guys are to stay together it is up to her. She needs to make the choice. Lay out all of your conditions, just like she did. Then you need to take care of yourself. I wish my husband could live one day in my shoes, but then I would never hurt him the way he has hurt me. Good Luck and let us know if you need us.


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## TroubledInMI

Oh, we're in our 40's. No kids. We're not able to have children, which I think plays a HUGE part in the whole picture, despite my WW saying she's come to terms with it (I don't believe she has). That makes a D that much more likely, I know...


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## TroubledInMI

I could use a little advice about at what point to go see an attorney. When we talked today, I was very specific about the lengths I was willing to go to save our marriage. Things like therapy, group and individual, dedicated time set aside every week to work on US, figuring measures in place to hold ourselves and each other accountable so we don't continue to fail to communicate, etc. I don't have all the ideas, but open to anything... except being plan B. She can come home, but not until she's terminates the A and is willing to make the sacrifices necessary to prove it (I did). She's deep in the fog, and while the A is fairly young (couple months?), her need to cling to it could be far stronger than I imagine, particularly given our record. Whether she leaves me or not, I have no qualms about doing everything I can to destroy her relationship with the OM. I'm not leaving. I told her she can come home if it is a home. If she's stopping by to pick up clothes while she continues the A, then there's nothing for us to discuss other than packing up her stuff and setting a move date. I don't want to make idle threats. Those never work out. My gut tells me to go to a lawyer tomorrow, file for D, and start the process going. I really don't want to divorce her, but if it will shock her out of the fog, I will do that. It takes some time for that to process anyway, so nothing would be immediate, but the shock could be very valuable, or drive her right to him even more. She did confess (I knew) during our talk that she had been shopping apartments, and she was considering leaving me. Of course, that would also mean continuing her A as well. I would have been crushed when she said it had I already not had a few days of soaking on that information. But still, her intent was to leave me for him.

I fear I'm most likely doomed, but I wonder if pursuing a D would help or harm the process of waking her up. Any insights from WS's if your BS did this and it worked for you? I'm trying to be the best man I can be. I've lost over 30 pounds, trying to take care of my health (though these last few days have seen very little sleep), take better care of my appearance, and in all communications to her I've tried to be agreeable, gentle, but confident and resolute. I don't want to scare her away, but I won't let her deceive me any longer.


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## TroubledInMI

clarification: She's not "out" of the house, but has been away on business going on the second week now. She would have been home over the holiday weekend, if not for her lying little trist which exposed everything. So I haven't kicked her out, but she's been told if she comes back while the A is still in effect, that we have nothing to talk about except division of assets...


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## Greg40

I wish I could help more here, I'm very new to all this myself. We have a somewhat similar relationship set-up...married, similar age and no kids. 

The Divorce card holds less power for people in this situation I feel and ultimately her affair with the OM might still be in progress and her emotions very much with him and growing. So playing the D card might not have the desired wake up call than a marriage with children. There is obviously less to lose from a detached WS's perspective.

I played the D card early and although my partner has kept NC, transparency etc with her OM, the decision she has taken quite recently is that she would move out anyway and we should both try to move on with our lives. So the didn't work D card for me .

So it can of course be played, it really depends on the A status (you must verify NC), your wife's current emotional status and how strongly she feels about your relationship and its future. It's clearly more of a gamble for childless couples.


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## TroubledInMI

I haven't gotten her to agree to break off the A yet, let alone NC. We had our first (and so far only) verbal discussion since d-day, just today. When I found out, I texted her, told her I knew everything, and just wanted to talk about it. That sent her into a rabbit hole for several days until just today, when I finally managed to get her to talk to me on the phone. In the discussion, she wasn't sure what she wanted to her. She had wanted to leave, had even planned on leaving, but told me that now that she realized I wasn't super furious, hated her, and wanted to kick her out, and was willing to take her back and go to the mat for the marriage, that she wanted to talk more. She didn't commit to ending the A, but wanted to consider R, or at least try and figure things out a bit and sort her feelings. I know, more fog. She'll never figure anything out with OM in the picture. But right after hanging up with me, she started communicating with him to try and go more covert. So, she's definitely drawn to him. Her attraction is real. Of course he makes her feel like a queen, and of course I'm a douche, etc. etc. I don't think I have any chance directly with her to shake her out of the fog. I'm the last person with any effective influence. I just contacted a close mutual couple friend of ours, one of the few who know our whole story (including my A, and an A of their own). They've agreed to try and intervene. I don't want that to backfire, but I'm grabbing at straws now. If she's going to leave, she's going to leave, so if I alienate her with a single friend of ours, well that may have happened anyway. What I *don't* want to do is shame her to the point of not being able to save face. I know I have to give her a way back to me. I don't mind shaming him with every contact I can dig up, but I want to keep her humiliation to the absolute minimum possible. Not just because I love, but because I deeply respect her, and she showed me unparalleled grace after my A. Still, I have to try everything.

Could I perhaps see an attorney, file for D, but not have her served? Is it possible to serve them yourself, when and if you need? Not sure of the value of that. And I see your point about in this situation, she doesn't have much to lose. She was seriously considering leaving me anyway, so this may not have the desired effect.


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## sharkeey

She's considering leaving you, she's been shopping for apartments.. I'm thinking she's a lot less in a fog and a lot more clearheaded than you may realize.

If you file for divorce do it because you know it's over not to try to "shake her into reality" because odds are she's going to agree to it. 

Not necessarily to your terms, but to the idea of getting divorced. The writing's been on the wall.. for a very long time.


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## calvin

Strap yourself in and hang on tight,it a rough ride.
Listen to the advice here,it will help in ways you cant imagine right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy

Until you remove the OM as an option for her she's going to continue the affair, her actions post confrontation prove it entirely. She has chosen him.

So your plan of attack must be to make the affair so costly to him that he dumps her.

Continue with the OMW. If she is reasonably close get a female friend or family member to go with you to their front door mid morning and talk to her. The remale with you is entirely to make you less threatening.

Good job on his employer. Contact them again and repeat until you are listened to.


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## OldWolf57

And don't believe for a minute he is estrange from his wife. Drop all ammo on his butt. 
And yes, do your filing, when his wife go after him, he is going to throw your wife under the bus. 
That along with your D papers will go a long way in burning off the fog.
You see, you told her you would be willing, but not plan B, but what she is hearing is you will be there no matter what. So have those papers ready. The lawyer can draw them up for you to hand her until she can show it over with him.

Yeah, you screwed up royally, but she stuck it out, so thats no way gives her a pass. Understand how she feels, but damn right you don't go all doormat.


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## walkonmars

There a strong possibilkty that you're not in her plans at all. Not A not even B.It may well be that she'd welcome the divorce if the OM was free of his spouse. 

You did wrong but this is inexcusable. Two wrongs.... Well, you know. 
Idon't see what else you can do. This may take a very high toll on your emotional & physical health so keep strong in those areas.


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## Will_Kane

She was going to leave you for him anyway.

Your best chance at saving your marriage is to blow this up to his wife. Call her again. Send a certified letter overnight. If you have to, travel to see her in person while your wife and other man both are still away. Offer her the proof that you have, because he's likely already warned her that you are crazy and your claims are baseless.

If he is willing to leave his wife, you are cooked. If he isn't, then your wife comes back and you get a chance to work on your marriage. No guarantee if she was unhappy as you make her sound before her affair.

The key to your having a chance at saving your marriage is the other man's wife.

The other man's employer was a nice move also and could be helpful, but other man's wife is the key.


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## TroubledInMI

Well I agree as to the seriousness of this issue. Our first conversation this afternoon left me feeling with a small ray of hope until they started trying to figure out how I knew what I knew, and her missing him, etc. I was pissed and disappointed, but not deterred. I figured I'd let them stew a little, since it appeared he may have become a little gun shy. I called the WW in the evening, and we spoke again for quite a while. Again, I was trying to be as non-confrontational with her as I can (she doesn't handle that well, and shrinks from any sort of logical discussion, which would be pointless in her fog anyway) while still making my case. She's still out of town until at least Thursday, though OM is not there (back home with his W I think). So I think this is the only reason I have an audience. But I have him buzzing in her ear, so I'm trying to stay in the other to at least compound the confusion and dilute whatever is going on between them. I'm a very analytical straight-forward guy, so trying to have a conversation where you pitch more questions than statements, trying to get her to think without it being a debate, while she's in a fog and clinging to this guy, that's a hard road for me. But I'm trying. I don't want to spook her. I'm glad she's talking. Talking is better than not talking. But I don't for a minute think I've got this. I feel my chances, honestly, are like 5% or less. We have way too negatives: no kids to walk away from, no real debt for her to assume half of, a troubled marriage with A's on both sides now, a husband who's done a terrible job of understanding his W, and an OM who seems perfect. Of course, he's not, but in her eyes. It would be relatively easy for her to walk away. The biggest hurdle I have with her perspective, which I know is totally whack right now, is getting her to answer the question of "ditch OM or not", versus whether to pursue R or D. From my perspective, which I hope is reality, she and I cannot even talk about R vs D until she resolves to ditch OM. Sitting on the fence is essentially a yes to OM, and no to BH... which means D. And she's on the fence right now. Part of me wants to let her come home (though she has not moved out, just been on business) so that I can have her full attention without the distraction of work or OM. But part of me wants to force an answer to the OM question. If the latter, I feel if pressured she might say "OM" or otherwise just lie about it anyway. Quite honestly, I don't think she's in a healthy enough position to break it off with OM. *I* have to destroy that relationship. I've emailed OMW, and employer. While I've heard nothing from either, the OM and WW communication chilled a little. After talking with me, she wanted to talk to him, but he wanted to cool off for a few days, let the rubble settle, and catch back up next week when back in town. So I don't know if he smells blood on my hands, or got a dose from his W, or what. Not sure. I don't think for a second he's out, or for a second she's given him up (she definitely has not).

So we may very well be done, but I've given her all the reasons why I think she's worth fighting for, despite our mutual mistakes, and I won't go down without a fight. If we end up in D, at least I'll say I tried everything. I know poisoning the OM relationship is paramount. They live in another state, so traveling there is not impossible, but improbable. If I get no responses by tomorrow, I will keep trying OMW. Can't find OM or OMW on FB, so no way to expose to friends. Wish I could. I've enlisted our mutual friends to try and intervene. Just not sure. So many checks in the con column to be optimistic. So if I can't be optimistic, I'll be determined.

I'm sure if the A is allowed to continue, she will leave, and will have some sort of fantasy of a life with him, because that fog is a hard thing to let go of. I have set the boundaries. Pick OM, pack your sh*t, and go, or ditch OM, and there's at least an atmosphere where we can talk, even if it ends in D. So I don't even want to discuss R or D until the OM question is settled. Just don't know how hard to push that with her, given her level of apparent attachment. Sorry to just on and on. It helps to get this out.


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## TroubledInMI

To the point of WWr being a lot more clear-headed than I realize... perhaps. I don't know. Maybe she was considering leaving me anyway. But in the 3 1/2 years since my WW's d-day, she's never once offered that up. Not once. I am still amazed at the grace she's shown me. It's not been easy, hell no. It's been a rocky road, with the typical ups and downs, but upward trending progress... as just about anyone on this board who has survived an A can attest to. If you're recovering, it isn't instant, it isn't consistent, and there are highs and lows. But not once did we ever get to a point of talking about D... until a mere *week* or two of the OM coming into the picture (at least my provable picture). The timing is uncanny. Maybe I'm in a fog, or overly optimistic, and clearly things weren't perfect because spouses don't step out when they are, but the intense unhappiness and sense of mourning hasn't been displayed until this a$$hole showed up. And the spectre of her ditching me had never (much to my surprise) come up before he showed up. I'm not saying he's the *cause*. But he's clearly pulling on threads I'm trying to carefully sew back in, and I have to get rid of this guy.

If anyone knows of ways to help dig up his circle of friends or family, they could be targets. I have no shame when it comes to this guy. I don't care how much is pisses off him or WW. I agree that he needs to be made as unattractive an option as possible, even if I ultimately lose. I know quite a bit about him. Name, address, phone numbers, wife's name, number, employer, where they grew up, got married. But not sure I'm exercising all of the tools I could be.


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## KathyGriffinFan

Go to pipl.com or peekyou.com as a start and input his name and city. Just a start.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07

She is rewriting the past to justify her actions. If she wanted to separate and divorce, there is a proper way to do that. 

Your story reminds me of a thread I read sometime back . The H gets caught in an affair, W forgives but puts him through hell for the next 2 years. She became very controlling and isolated him from his social circle and his hobbies. He was to be answerable for every minute of his time. Passwords, GPS all the tracking stuff. One day he finds out(from her secret email) that she was having her own affair the started well before his affair.(He cheated because there was no sex in the marriage). She used his affair to control his actions so that she could continue her affair much more freely.

Found the link

6 Month UPDATE: I cheated... but at what point do I deserve happiness? : relationship_advice


He divorced her


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## walkonmars

You might point out how similar you and OM are. You both cheated on a spouse. Only he's still doing it - and with a married woman. So as far as "trustworthiness" is concerned, all three of you are about equal on fidelity. 

Challenge her to act with honor and dignity in the last days of your relationship and swear to her you'll do the same - and mean it. 

It's worth a shot - especially if you both take it to heart


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## OldWolf57

You already see result from bombing him. He is stalling your wife now to do damage control.
Thats shows he lied to her about being estrange from his wife.

Pop his lil dirty game like a pipple. And keep the pressure on her.
You in one ear him in the other, until you blow his whole world up.
Post him on cheatersville and send him, his boss, his wife, pastor and anyone else you find close to him the link. Let him know you are just getting started. Let him and his boss know if you find any accounts he handle, you will let them know what a sleeze they are doing business with.


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## Kasler

You don't fix a marriage by covering it in niceties and commitments. it away. 

I know one poster on here who cheated on his wife, she forgave. However he knows that knows excuse and says if his wife cheated he would leave her for sure.

Its not about keeping score or who did what, its commitment and being in the marriage. She chose to R, not to D when you cheated so she has to be in the marriage 100%, anything less is unacceptable, doesn't matter what the hell you did since she chose to stay in it. You keep letting her throw this back in your face only diminishes you as a man. 

Also you need to stop thinking of her as some sort of victim here. 

You need to give the ultimatum. Don't give her a choice of whether she commits to the marriage. Shes either in or shes out, no two ways to slice it.


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## Chaparral

Since you have his email, try this. Go to cheaterville.com, get the link and send it to him. Tell him you are going to put him on it and anytime anyone including his family googlers his name they will see what a screw up he is unless he stops communicating with your wife immediately.

Tell him you are going to have a PI stuck up his ----- so far he'll see daylight.


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## Petyot

chapparal said:


> Since you have his email, try this. Go to cheaterville.com, get the link and send it to him. Tell him you are going to put him on it and anytime anyone including his family googlers his name they will see what a screw up he is unless he stops communicating with your wife immediately.
> 
> Tell him you are going to have a PI stuck up his ----- so far he'll see daylight.


I cannot connect to "cheaterville.com". Is the address correct or just something wrong on their side (or mine...)?


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## TroubledInMI

I just want to thank all of the folks on here who have offered advice, support, slaps in the face, etc. All of it is sorely needed. My support net isn't necessarily small, but I've been reluctant to involve either of our families, and have only confided in a couple very close friends. I'm trying to maintain an environment that she can be in, if we're even able to do that. In the meantime, I'm isolated, desperate, and the most alone. Being here is a tremendous help, not because there are so many others to commiserate with, but so much wisdom. I think engaged couples should have to spend a week or two reading every thread on these sites before they're allowed to get married. Seriously.


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## TroubledInMI

Also, I'm grateful that the WW has been granting me an audience via phone, before and after work, so we can at least talk. I wouldn't describe myself as dominant, but I would describe myself as assertive, analytical, and a problem solver. I'm an engineer, so these are qualities that serve me well with everyone I deal with. With my WW, though, they're huge negatives in regards to interpersonal communications. Her being in the same field, I never expected that. I always assumed I could relate to her like I do everyone else, because she's so much like me. But she's really not like, and I've learned (yes, very, very, late in the game, but I've learned) that anyone's spouse is not like anyone else in their world. This is the one person you share things with that no one else gets to see. All of their vulnerabilities are exposed to you because you're the one they trust the most. So you have to take extreme care with your communications, being ever vigilant of those vulnerabilities. You don't have to do that with anyone else, because they're not so exposed. Anyway, that was my personal revelation at 4 am this morning when once again, I woke up in a sweat and couldn't shut my mind off about everything that's going on...


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## TroubledInMI

I spoke with the WW this morning before she went to work, and had every intention of trying to keep it light, non-relationship talk. That was my goal. I really just wanted to show her some positives and not just say I was here, but show I was here. But I just can't help myself. My marriage is going down like the Titanic, she's in a fog, she's CHOSEN the OM, and I'm getting desperate. She won't admit she's chosen him, but someone else earlier posted and said that she had, and I have to admit to myself, she has. I confronted her 5 days ago. When I did that, I honestly expected one of two responses. I figured she would either say the gig's up, but I was leaving you anyway, so it's over, let's call an attorney. Or, I figured she would be horrified at getting caught (I was), would end it that day (I did), and would start jumping on her sword because of what a huge mistake it was (I did). She did neither. She went silent for several days and only started talking to me yesterday, and of course is still out of town. She hasn't ended the A, hasn't committed to R or D, so she's on the fence. And I've been very clear I won't be plan B or cuckold any longer. Still, she's so damn wishy washy. So this morning, despite my best intentions of trying to be all the good husband I could be and just talk about light stuff, I just couldn't leave this point be. We talked about her coming home tomorrow as scheduled, and I basically gave her an ultimatum. I told her how much I loved her and how we wouldn't even be having this discussion if I wasn't committed to this long term. When people get caught, there's only one thing, and one thing only to do. Decide to keep or toss the A. Until that decision is made, there is NOTHING else to talk about. If you do nothing, or sit on the fence, waiver, stall, whatever you want to call it, then you're in effect choosing the A, so then there's STILL nothing to talk about except D settlement. So I pushed this. She's interested in coming home as planned. I asked why, and she said because she feels like she needs to come home so we can continue to talk. I asked, talk about what? D vs. R? She said yes. So, I asked if she had come to a decision on OM, and she said not yet. Not yet? Well then we can't talk about D or R! God, I know, she's in a fog, and I'm trying to use reason and logic. I know I'm an idiot. But I'm desperate like so many others, and logic and reason are all I have to keep my sanity in check. This woman is in a grave situation and I need to get her out of it. I tried not to go on the attack, because that never works with her, but I sort of did. I started throwing out hypotheticals, like, if you decide to end the A and work on R, would you be willing to quit your job so we can be together for that? She was hesitant. Really? The job is more important than doing whatever it takes to save your marriage? She got defensive. She enjoys her work, I know that. I said if you can't elevate your job above your marriage, but you can elevate your A above the job, where the hell does that leave us? There's no point in getting on the plane until you have things in perspective. She couldn't figure out how the A was elevated above the job, but I pointed out that she lives in one state, and is working only temporarily in another on a project that, like all the projects we work on, will end. OM lives in yet a different state, has similar work travel requirements, and it's chance that they are able to connect in this particular city. But if the A is important enough for her to waiver over leaving her H for, wouldn't she surely want it continue beyond the inevitable end of her project? What then? Gonna follow OM around? He gonna follow you around? I know, all logic, she's got her head in the sand, so I wasting my time. But still, clearly, the A was more important, ultimately, than the job which, as she basically implied, was more important than the M right now. More of this kind of probing, and she went off. I got a good 5 or 10 minute tirade that developed into areas that had nothing to do with job, or OM, but about things in our lives. I listened. Just listened. Her spilling all this out wasn't relieving her, just pissing her off, and she hates getting pissed off like that and sees that as yet another negative in dealing with me. When she was done, I calmly thanked her for lowering a barrier and letting out so much pent up stuff that she never lets out. She of course says she ALWAYS lets this stuff out and she's been trying to tell me FOREVER and that I NEVER listen, etc. And that this is why she wanted to leave in the first place, because we can't really talk without them being big outbursts like this. I agreed with her. That is a problem, one of many, that we'll have to address. The reality, or at least my perspective, is that nothing is ALWAYS, FOREVER, NEVER. She does hold things back, maybe because she internalizes, maybe because I tend to be devil's advocate/analyst/whatever about everything, maybe both. So they build up pressure until they blow, and I of course don't know where they're coming from, and she of course can't understand why I'm so obtuse. But I agreed with her. I made my case one last time before letting her go to work, that our marriage is worth saving. We have a history full of land mines that have to be disarmed, barriers to communication that have to be removed, etc. But we have SO MUCH experience that we've both learned from, whether we end up D or not, that can only help us. I also reiterated that I truly believe that OM has her heart, and that while she may say she's wrestling with a decision to R or not, in my heart I believe she's trying to muster the courage to leave me for OM. He has her heart. I do not. But I am either going to win it back, or get a D as soon as possible. I want her to come home tomorrow, but she has to end the A by then. If she comes here still undecided, then that is a decision, and there's nothing for us to talk about except D. She is NOT happy. I might be getting through.


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## TroubledInMI

Ok, one last post (for now anyway). Just got wind that sh*t is hitting the fan at his work. OM may be backing off. He's certainly concerned. Not sure "concern" = "I'm outta here" or not, but I'm taking it as progress. No word from OMW yet, so I think I have to try reaching her right now as soon as I submit this post. He's probably already in damage control mode as we speak, and I have to get to her to add whatever cement bags to his feet as I can.


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## TroubledInMI

So, WW hangs up with me because she's out of time and HAS to go to work now... only to immediately call OM. When we had hung up, she was left with an ultimatum. End the A, or don't come home. So I'm torn as to how to view this call. The optimist, fog-headed BH wants to cling to hope that since he's nervous about his company getting sued and is backing off, and I'm telling her break it off or don't come home, that perhaps that's what the discussion was about. The realist in me is saying, she's a clingy b*tch that can't let go and was calling him begging him to help her find the courage to leave. Personally, I think the bag of sh*t OM is a player. If he gave a damn about her and his own M was crap, he'd not be deterred so easily. I think he found a vulnerable woman and took advantage. But that's irrelevant, I suppose.

Not sure what I'm looking for here, just trying to cling to my determination to rebuild our marriage without letting my growing bitterness and anger poison the love I feel for this woman.


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## Kasler

You need to stop bullsh!ting and expose to be frank about it. 

That will put the reality of what shes doing into much more depth for her. 

Also you need a support base. Tell everyone, family, friends, it never hurts YOU and thats whats important here.

Right now you're just a gnat in her ear. buzzing and buzzing but not quite doing anything else

You need to tell her unless shes quit the A don't even come to the house, in fact tell her to be picking up her crap from the lawn if she insists on striding up the middle of the stream(like she was originally afraid of, why you didn't seize upon this, who knows)

You're so afraid of losing her you don't even realize what shes doing to your worth as human being. Shes pretty much put you and OM on balance scales. Finances, sex, assets, etc and weighing you two on a scale. You should be pissed the fvck off to be frank. You need to realize that if she can't even make a choice to be in the marriage then you need to make it for her. Waiting for her to get her positive and negative list done is being nothing more than, you guessed it, her plan B. 

When you wait on this behavior you enable it, in fact you encourage her to be self centered and irresponsible for her actions. You keep this up and hey, she may just weigh you with more weight at the end of her calculations. But will it really be worth the loss of your self respect and your personal value and worth being measured up like a commodity shes buying at a market?

Tell your parents, tell her parents. Not that your doing this to 'get back' at her but to let them know whats going on.

Also the sooner you find your aggression and your ,to be frank, balls the sooner she'll respond.


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## Jonesey

warlock07 said:


> She is rewriting the past to justify her actions. If she wanted to separate and divorce, there is a proper way to do that.
> 
> Your story reminds me of a thread I read sometime back . The H gets caught in an affair, W forgives but puts him through hell for the next 2 years. She became very controlling and isolated him from his social circle and his hobbies. He was to be answerable for every minute of his time. Passwords, GPS all the tracking stuff. One day he finds out(from her secret email) that she was having her own affair the started well before his affair.(He cheated because there was no sex in the marriage). She used his affair to control his actions so that she could continue her affair much more freely.
> 
> Found the link
> 
> 6 Month UPDATE: I cheated... but at what point do I deserve happiness? : relationship_advice
> 
> 
> He divorced her


WoW HOLY S...T!!"! Damn ,what a Brutal story..

That is one hell of EVIL Woman


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## Shaggy

Stop talking through it and the options with her. As you've seen you cannot rationally talk someone out of cheating. You're trying to approach it rationally, meanwhile she's approaching from the high of the affair chemicals in her brain.

You are trying to do marriage counseling run by yourself, and you're finding out the truth: MC is a waste of time while the WS is still in the affair.

You need to change your plan a bit:

1. Exposure- You've done great so far!!! Keep up the pressure. Exposure is design entirely about making the affair see the light of day - keep up with the OMW and expand to your friends/family.

2. Stop chasing her and telling her how much you want her back and love her. It lowers your status and attractiveness, and since she continues to turn to the OM and is continuing the affair, it is telling her she CAN continue the affair and you WILL keep chasing her. You are doing nothing but proving to her that she can cake eat.

3. Go dark. Tell her you will talk to her when she chooses you and to go NC with the OM. Until he is gone, you have nothing to discuss other then D. 

Hold you ground. Do not compromise, do not give time, do not allow her to keep you in limbo. 

Draw the line. If she won't end the affair TODAY, then visit a lawyer and begin the D papers. You can always cancel them later. Right now she is entirely cake eating, and you've been letting her!

She didn't contact you for several days because she didn't fear you leaving. She knew she had the OM with her, and you where an unpleasant task that could be put off. If she actually feared you leaving she would have been lighting up your phone.

She doesn't fear you leaving for two reasons: 1) she has the OM and 2) She doesn't believe you will. she believes she is entirely in charge here and is calling the shots and timeline on the relationship.

She believes she leaves when she is ready. She believes she decides on D or R. And so far what you've told is that she is correct. 

While it is true you've gone after the OM - GOOD!, you've dealt with her with kid gloves.


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## TroubledInMI

I'm trying to expose, at least on his side. Called OMW again, and again went to vm. Took a chance and sent her a text, asking her to check her mail. Still no response, so can't guarantee she's getting the message. OM's work is freaking a bit, and got him nervous, and he's backing off, but WW is clinging on, or appearing to do so. Mutual couple friend of ours are intervening today (asked them to blindside her). I'm sure she'll paint me in a horrible light, that's expected, but they know me, they know us, all that's happened on both sides, and have survived A themselves. I'm hoping they can help. I still want to preserve an environment that she can come home to. In her mind, she's already chosen OM. Won't admit it, but I have. But she won't take the leap to leave unless he can offer her something. If she really wanted to leave, she would have. She *needs* this guy to help her pull the trigger. He's cooling off. I want to drive a wedge there as large as possible. If I humiliate her in front of her parents or mine, etc., then she'll just be demonized, or feel that way in her mind. I see that as only giving her less reason not to leave. Right now, she's clearly afraid of leaving. Or she would have. It's not like we have kids in the mix, or like she can't make a good living on her own. Many of the traditional reasons that keep a WS in the home just aren't there for us. So I can only imagine why she just hasn't done it. Personally, I think she needs an emotional pillar. She has me offering to prop her up at home. And she's looking to OM to prop her up outside of home. I don't think he's quite made that offer, so she's on the fence.

I pulled my pillar out this morning. Don't get on the plane until the A is over, and it better be sooner than later. Scheduling an appointment with an attorney today. She was upset, and called him right after hanging up with me. I want to scatter this A like roaches, but I feel I need to leave her a path home. I find that last point tricky for me without running the risk of becoming a doormat. Thanks for everyone listening to my wordy dribble and rantings. I kind of think as I type...


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## Shaggy

When you talk to the OMW - warn her that your wife might be heading to there place or her husband might be heading to be with your wife. Especially if you told her not to come home.

Also consider posting the OM to cheaterville.com - then send him a link to it.


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## TroubledInMI

Shaggy, you are absolutely right. I was typing my post while you were, so I didn't see it, but you are right. I've been some right things, and a lot of wrong things. I've been trying to make my case for why the marriage is worth saving. I need to stop that right now. I can make my case without words to her. I need to step up exposure. Am making an appt with attorney today. I did give her an ultimatum this morning, but I think it could have been much firmer. I like the going dark idea. She did that to me, because you're right, she assumed I'd be here. So I need to do that, and I think I'll even start packing up some of her things today. It can be a show of my seriousness, or a start on actually getting her out if it comes to that. But I really don't want her to get on the plane unless the A is over. I have no desire to be in the same state with her until then. Thanks for the sage advice.


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## warlock07

You are becoming clingy and desperate Though understandable, it is the worst thing you can do now. You won't earn her respect by pleading and declaring your love to her repeatedly.


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## TroubledInMI

You are absolutely right. That stops now.


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## CleanJerkSnatch

Best way to get your wife back is to stop chasing her, stop begging, stop groveling, stop being a nice guy get strong. Sure you cheated, improved yourself, but now is the time to become even better by moving on. Once her fantasy comes crashing down opening up to reality she will notice that she has made the same mistake as you and why is that worse? It is worse because she knows what its like to be betrayed yet she still inflicted the pain on her supposed loved one, you. 

Stop doing this your way, its not working, stop being nice, focus on you. Cheating is cheating no matter which spouse does it and no matter who does it before or after the other. IMHO its worse to cheat on your spouse after you forgive them and R and see it as a go to test the eaters.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TroubledInMI

Excellent points. I've decided to cut her off. I've said all I need to say (and I lot I should have not said) by issuing the ultimatum. When we hung up, it was "don't get on the plane until the A is over". Of course she called him immediately afterwards. Oh well. I think it's time to go dark now until we actually have something to talk about (like, oh, A is over, let's talk about a NC letter, transparency, full access to phone/email/etc... then maybe we can move on to R if you want). Smaller steps. I'm a "fix it" guy, so of course I want to resolve everything right now. I have to step back. Ultimatum is there. There really is nothing else to discuss until the A is over. Or, if the A is not over after some period I decide is enough (not sure how long, 5 days in the open, she's on the fence, and it sucks a$$), then I'll have to simply conclude that she's made her choice, file for D and move on. I see what has to be done. Being disciplined enough to be patient and do them properly, that's something I have to work on.


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## TroubledInMI

Some developments. Attempts to contact the OMW had not been successful, and if they were, I didn't know. I finally took a risk and texted her, asking her to check her email about OM. I got a phone call from a woman who was at first reluctant because she had not received any emails and had no idea who I was. So I let it all out. She was devastated, but not at all surprised. Sh*tbag is a father of 3, husband for 22 years, and has cheated on her many times, she kept forgiving him, and then he'd do it again. He's mentally manipulative. The last time, she said, was about a year ago, and after that, she couldn't take it anymore so she basically decided not to leave, but to stop being his W, put him in another room, but keep the family together for the sake of their kids. She's extremely protective of them, which I totally get. She wanted her kids to have a father, and wants to protect them from this sort of behavior, but this is just becoming too much, as at least one of the kids knows of the last affair. Not sure what's she going to do, she needs time to process. I referred her to a couple websites, recommended going to a counselor, and an attorney. She's afraid that if she throws out the D card, that he will indeed run to my WW. I seriously doubt that. This guy is a proven player. He has never been confronted with the prospect of losing his family, facing very probable financial devastation, etc. He has ALWAYS had a plan B waiting at home, time and time again.

While I'm delighted that she knows, not sure what the outcome of that will be. If she tucks her head down, takes the abuse as before, then same ol' same. If she gets pissed enough to at least confront the guy, let him know that *I* called her, then if nothing else, he'll know how serious I am. I let her know that his employer knows, and she was afraid of that. I'm certain he's in no danger of losing his job, and only in danger of serious shame, which was my point. I let her know that I no intention of getting her kids into this at all, but I will overturn any other rock (business associates, clients, etc). He has to stop.

I've already seen evidence that WW's connection to him is FAR more serious than OM's to her. This is about sex to this guy (which I get, been there, though OW was single so I only wrecked my home...). To WW, this is about fantasy. OMW painted a picture of OM that mirrors WW's impression. He's a total player. I have to figure out how to broaden my exposure of him to send that roach running. And WW can sit and stew in the dark while that little fantasy implodes.


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## Kasler

Expose to family. Affairs thrive in the dark. As long as you keep the lightbulb out she ain't gonna quit.

And if this guy is a player he won't quit either, he'll just tell her they need to go underground or to let the heat blow over for both of their spouses. The more you don't expose the more you enable the affair.


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## akashNil

Now even if she comes back to you, it will be because of the circumstances and not because she wants you. Your marriage will never be same again. She will resent you because you did all this. She might repeat this with someone else (Especially if it is about sex).

I have been following this thread from the beginning, and you seem to be a considerate, gentle person. I don't think your wife is like you at all. Like others said, please do not give your wife a very long rope just because you committed a mistake in the past. My best wishes to you.

(On a lighter note, you seem to break the text into paragraphs only when you are reporting something positive ...  )


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## Will_Kane

Next time you talk to your wife, let her know what his wife said
. Your wife is in a fog but she is not stupid. She will start to doubt his lies. Stir up some trouble in paradise.
Plant a seed, break the fantasy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TroubledInMI

I know my marriage will never be the same. I'm hoping that, after a tremendous amount of work and real commitment, that it will be better. Different, battle scarred, but stronger in many ways. That's the only reason I'm doing this. I hope she never does this again, as I'm sure she hopes I never do this again. "Affair-proofing" our marriage has to top the MC agenda, assuming we make it that far.

I *am* a considerate, gentle person, with a good heart... who got complacent, swept things under the rug, took some small (though wrong) first steps, which I rationalized, justified, and intensified, until I was no longer a considerate, gentle person with a good heart, but a lying, deceiving, son of a b*tch cheater. My WW, from as clear a perspective as I'm able to have at this point, is more like me than I ever imagined. That said, her actions are her own. I'm not going to give her *any* rope.

When an A is exposed, there is exactly ONE decision that has to be made, and it has to be made before another single topic can even be broached. And that's: "End the A, or end the M?". Ending the A in no way guarantees the M will survive, but you can't even address that discussion until the first question is answered. The hard part for me is, I wanted to jump in and try to fix things before forcing her to answer that first question. I'm sure I've done more harm than good with my initial approach, but like almost everyone else here, I was in the middle of the mess before I started tooling up. My response when I discovered the affair *should* have been confrontation, followed by ultimatum, followed by a complete cutoff of communication until the ultimatum was addressed. Not to say that I couldn't have continued on with steps of exposure, etc., on my own. But when an A is discovered, NO CONTACT should occur right away... either between WS and OP, or between WS and LS.


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## Shaggy

You should give the OMW your wife's phone number. Let the OMW fill her in on the OM.

Sounds like OM is way over due for cheaterville. Or maybe he's already on there?


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## KathyGriffinFan

TroubledInMI said:


> I spoke with the WW this morning before she went to work, and had every intention of trying to keep it light, non-relationship talk. That was my goal. I really just wanted to show her some positives and not just say I was here, but show I was here. But I just can't help myself. My marriage is going down like the Titanic, she's in a fog, she's CHOSEN the OM, and I'm getting desperate. She won't admit she's chosen him, but someone else earlier posted and said that she had, and I have to admit to myself, she has. I confronted her 5 days ago. When I did that, I honestly expected one of two responses. I figured she would either say the gig's up, but I was leaving you anyway, so it's over, let's call an attorney. Or, I figured she would be horrified at getting caught (I was), would end it that day (I did), and would start jumping on her sword because of what a huge mistake it was (I did). She did neither. She went silent for several days and only started talking to me yesterday, and of course is still out of town. She hasn't ended the A, hasn't committed to R or D, so she's on the fence. And I've been very clear I won't be plan B or cuckold any longer. Still, she's so damn wishy washy. So this morning, despite my best intentions of trying to be all the good husband I could be and just talk about light stuff, I just couldn't leave this point be. We talked about her coming home tomorrow as scheduled, and I basically gave her an ultimatum. I told her how much I loved her and how we wouldn't even be having this discussion if I wasn't committed to this long term. When people get caught, there's only one thing, and one thing only to do. Decide to keep or toss the A. Until that decision is made, there is NOTHING else to talk about. If you do nothing, or sit on the fence, waiver, stall, whatever you want to call it, then you're in effect choosing the A, so then there's STILL nothing to talk about except D settlement. So I pushed this. She's interested in coming home as planned. I asked why, and she said because she feels like she needs to come home so we can continue to talk. I asked, talk about what? D vs. R? She said yes. So, I asked if she had come to a decision on OM, and she said not yet. Not yet? Well then we can't talk about D or R! God, I know, she's in a fog, and I'm trying to use reason and logic. I know I'm an idiot. But I'm desperate like so many others, and logic and reason are all I have to keep my sanity in check. This woman is in a grave situation and I need to get her out of it. I tried not to go on the attack, because that never works with her, but I sort of did. I started throwing out hypotheticals, like, if you decide to end the A and work on R, would you be willing to quit your job so we can be together for that? She was hesitant. Really? The job is more important than doing whatever it takes to save your marriage? She got defensive. She enjoys her work, I know that. I said if you can't elevate your job above your marriage, but you can elevate your A above the job, where the hell does that leave us? There's no point in getting on the plane until you have things in perspective. She couldn't figure out how the A was elevated above the job, but I pointed out that she lives in one state, and is working only temporarily in another on a project that, like all the projects we work on, will end. OM lives in yet a different state, has similar work travel requirements, and it's chance that they are able to connect in this particular city. But if the A is important enough for her to waiver over leaving her H for, wouldn't she surely want it continue beyond the inevitable end of her project? What then? Gonna follow OM around? He gonna follow you around? I know, all logic, she's got her head in the sand, so I wasting my time. But still, clearly, the A was more important, ultimately, than the job which, as she basically implied, was more important than the M right now. More of this kind of probing, and she went off. I got a good 5 or 10 minute tirade that developed into areas that had nothing to do with job, or OM, but about things in our lives. I listened. Just listened. Her spilling all this out wasn't relieving her, just pissing her off, and she hates getting pissed off like that and sees that as yet another negative in dealing with me. When she was done, I calmly thanked her for lowering a barrier and letting out so much pent up stuff that she never lets out. She of course says she ALWAYS lets this stuff out and she's been trying to tell me FOREVER and that I NEVER listen, etc. And that this is why she wanted to leave in the first place, because we can't really talk without them being big outbursts like this. I agreed with her. That is a problem, one of many, that we'll have to address. The reality, or at least my perspective, is that nothing is ALWAYS, FOREVER, NEVER. She does hold things back, maybe because she internalizes, maybe because I tend to be devil's advocate/analyst/whatever about everything, maybe both. So they build up pressure until they blow, and I of course don't know where they're coming from, and she of course can't understand why I'm so obtuse. But I agreed with her. I made my case one last time before letting her go to work, that our marriage is worth saving. We have a history full of land mines that have to be disarmed, barriers to communication that have to be removed, etc. But we have SO MUCH experience that we've both learned from, whether we end up D or not, that can only help us. I also reiterated that I truly believe that OM has her heart, and that while she may say she's wrestling with a decision to R or not, in my heart I believe she's trying to muster the courage to leave me for OM. He has her heart. I do not. But I am either going to win it back, or get a D as soon as possible. I want her to come home tomorrow, but she has to end the A by then. If she comes here still undecided, then that is a decision, and there's nothing for us to talk about except D. She is NOT happy. I might be getting through.


Pargraphs please...paragraphs...:smthumbup:


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## happyman64

Troubled,

Even though you want your wife back home you have to remain firm that she break off the A.

You need to go dark on her but before you do let her know in writing what his wife told you.

Let her know she picked a real POS to replace you with.

Then go dark.

No more ultimatums. Let her decide.

Good Luck

HM64


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## turnera

TroubledInMI said:


> I've been reluctant to involve either of our families, and have only confided in a couple very close friends.


This is a mistake. Exposing does NOT ruin the situation, it brings it out into the light so that the cheater has to acknowledge the wrong they've done. If she is so dysfunctional that she will run at the first site of a parent or sibling (hers, not yours) knowing what she did, then she is damaged goods and your marriage would not have held up anyway. The ONLY way for you to move forward in an honest, healthy marriage is for her to own what she did in a humble way; in fact, I recommend that the cheater go to his/her parents/siblings and tell them what they did no matter what happens. That keeps them grounded; it brings more eyes on the subject so the cheater is less likely to backslide; it helps the cheater see their actions from the eyes of another, a someone whose respect they crave; and it brings humility to the situation so that, once the OM/OW is gone, the two of you can move forward as a TEAM and make better choices. That won't happen if she is allowed to pretend to be someone she's not.


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## turnera

OH, and text your wife and tell her that OM's wife has confirmed for you (make it very matter-of-fact) that her lover has had at least half a dozen women on the side, the last one less than a year ago. 

Also tell her that OM's wife says he has no intention of leaving his wife, this is just what he does, and his wife has no intention of kicking him out because of HIS KIDS. (so her fantasy is out the window)


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## happyman64

:iagree:
Turnera is right.

Tell her she cannot come within 10 feet of you until she is deloused and tested for everything under the sun.


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## Falene

I had originally felt that Troubled was correct in not exposing the A outside of the OM/OMW. Turnera is right though in so many ways. If Troubled's A had of been exposed to both families maybe his wife's A would have never taken place at all. 

Troubled's wife could have had a much better and deeper support system instead of keeping this life altering event to herself and from her family. Troubled's affair likely weakened or removed any support system his wife would have had since his A had a negative impact on her friend base. Troubled would have also been held accountable on an important level which would have helped their recovery in my opinion.

Troubled, if you do decide to expose to both families make sure it all begins with your affair. I don't mean that it lessens what she has done but the entire story must be told. 

I have been reading this with a big fat "WOW". I have often fantasized of the revenge affair. What bigger kick in the groin could I give my husband over his A? I can't think of a better one. 

Troubled, I wish you and your wife the best of luck. Thank you for sharing your story with us. You provided me with a perspective I couldn't live without.


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## TroubledInMI

Falene, I fear you are right. If there's anything WW's A has brought to my attention, is the overwhelming damage my A caused which was never, ever, properly dealt with. As for exposure, believe me, my A was VERY well exposed. The only ones kept out of it were parents who resided in other states.

Our friend base took a huge hit, as indicated in an early post, because some wanted to side with me, thus distancing themselves from my wife, most sided with her, distancing themselves from me, and some just couldn't handle being around a dysfunctional couple with such a crappy husband and a weak wife who took him back. You really learn who your friends are.

She's an only child, so only has her elderly parents. No siblings, grandparents all passed, distant cousins. She has some communication issues with her parents, especially her mother, and feared telling them because it would likely create a chasm and hinder her desire to reconcile (e.g., mom would try to control and fix everything, dad would likely shoot me). In hindsight, leaving them out was probably a mistake, because they are her parents, and would have nurtured her. (people don't get a handbook on how to deal with the crap)

I come from a large family, reasonably tight-knit, all out of state. I feared involving them because they would have immediately rushed to my side and propped me up. I wanted to crawl in a hole and die. And I certainly didn't want to have all this overwhelming support while my wife died inside every day. In hindsight, leaving them out was probably a mistake, too, because they all LOVE her, and I think now they more likely would have kicked me in the balls and supported her intensely. Again, no handbook.

I can't say I'd recommend revenge affair...


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## turnera

Surely there is SOMEone in her life whose respect she craves? THAT is the person(s) you expose to, as they are the people she will listen to.


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## TroubledInMI

I've been around the circuit on the roller coaster, couple times, all week. Most of today, though, I've been in an oddly good mood. I was investigating, exposing, executing a plan. Despite my dismal odds, I felt good because I was "doing something".

My wife has decided to come home tomorrow, but still has not committed to anything. So I wrote a letter, printed it out, and figured I'd give it to her at the airport. The gist:
- you're having an affair with a married man with kids
- you refuse to end it
- your betrayal has now escalated to cruelty
- I no longer want to be married to you
- I'm filing for divorce
- you are not welcome in the house
- don't contact me except to set a date for your moving out

I then added a footnote with the details I got from OM's wife, how he's a serial cheater, how she always takes him back, etc. Also said that since we're now on a path to divorce, I was going to bring our families into it so they're not blind-sided.

Then I balled my eyes out like a baby and started to fall apart. I guess the realities are starting to sink in... at least for me. This is such a sh*t, sh*t situation. I don't recommend it.


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## Chaparral

Shaggy said:


> When you talk to the OMW - warn her that your wife might be heading to there place or her husband might be heading to be with your wife. Especially if you told her not to come home.
> 
> Also consider posting the OM to cheaterville.com - then send him a link to it.


You are arguing with your wife like a man argues with a man. Ultimatums simply don't work in this situation.

You REALLY need to read Married Man Sex Life now. Download it at amazon.com. Your communication skills with women are what got you here and you are just doubling up. IMHO


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## TroubledInMI

I guess I don't understand the comments about ultimatums. I thought the idea was to insist they break off the affair, or else file for divorce. Am I missing something?


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## turnera

Do NOT tell her you are telling her family. JUST DO IT, DAMMIT! Time to man up, ok?


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## Chaparral

TroubledInMI said:


> Some developments. Attempts to contact the OMW had not been successful, and if they were, I didn't know. I finally took a risk and texted her, asking her to check her email about OM. I got a phone call from a woman who was at first reluctant because she had not received any emails and had no idea who I was. So I let it all out. She was devastated, but not at all surprised. Sh*tbag is a father of 3, husband for 22 years, and has cheated on her many times, she kept forgiving him, and then he'd do it again. He's mentally manipulative. The last time, she said, was about a year ago, and after that, she couldn't take it anymore so she basically decided not to leave, but to stop being his W, put him in another room, but keep the family together for the sake of their kids. She's extremely protective of them, which I totally get. She wanted her kids to have a father, and wants to protect them from this sort of behavior, but this is just becoming too much, as at least one of the kids knows of the last affair. Not sure what's she going to do, she needs time to process. I referred her to a couple websites, recommended going to a counselor, and an attorney. She's afraid that if she throws out the D card, that he will indeed run to my WW. I seriously doubt that. This guy is a proven player. He has never been confronted with the prospect of losing his family, facing very probable financial devastation, etc. He has ALWAYS had a plan B waiting at home, time and time again.
> 
> While I'm delighted that she knows, not sure what the outcome of that will be. If she tucks her head down, takes the abuse as before, then same ol' same. If she gets pissed enough to at least confront the guy, let him know that *I* called her, then if nothing else, he'll know how serious I am. I let her know that his employer knows, and she was afraid of that. I'm certain he's in no danger of losing his job, and only in danger of serious shame, which was my point. I let her know that I no intention of getting her kids into this at all, but I will overturn any other rock (business associates, clients, etc). He has to stop.
> 
> I've already seen evidence that WW's connection to him is FAR more serious than OM's to her. This is about sex to this guy (which I get, been there, though OW was single so I only wrecked my home...). To WW, this is about fantasy. OMW painted a picture of OM that mirrors WW's impression. He's a total player. I have to figure out how to broaden my exposure of him to send that roach running. And WW can sit and stew in the dark while that little fantasy implodes.


Sicing his company on him is great. Have your attorney send him a letter threatening an intentional infliction of emotional distress lawsuit on him. Alienation of affection also if its still allowed in your state. Extremely hard to win but your ploy is not to really take it to court but to imply serious legal fees for him.

Be sure your wife knows how many times he has cheated on his family. Give her his wifes name, number and kids names.


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## turnera

TroubledInMI said:


> I guess I don't understand the comments about ultimatums. I thought the idea was to insist they break off the affair, or else file for divorce. Am I missing something?


 You have to stop thinking that you can make her do anything. That way lies madness.

What you CAN do is tell her what YOU will do if she does what hurts you. Period. That is not an ultimatum. It is a statement of YOUR boundary (no OM) and HER consequence (divorce) if she crosses your boundary.

See, she is free to do whatever the hell she wants. But YOU are free to enact the consequence she will face. And you make it VERY clear that you WILL give her the consequence if she continues to disabuse you. HER CHOICE. You are just telling her what's going to happen if she hurts you.


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## Chaparral

TroubledInMI said:


> I guess I don't understand the comments about ultimatums. I thought the idea was to insist they break off the affair, or else file for divorce. Am I missing something?


For one thing you can't legally keep her out of her home. You don't discuss this kind of thing unless its in person. 80% of communication is visual. Making your case at a distance is just cold hearted.


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## Chaparral

However do not let her see you cry or lose it. If you become too emotional take a break until you can continue. And don't act like a robot engineer. Thinking your wife as an engineer and you would be on the same like is totally naive. No matter her profession, she is a woman. Get the book. She has told you everything and you missed it. Of course we all do. Although what she says isn't exactly what she means. We speak in different tongues.


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## walkonmars

Your emotions are understanably in turmoil. Turnera has solid OBJECTIVE unemotional advice. Please consider it carefully.


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## TroubledInMI

Alienation of affection has been abolished in my state...


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## turnera

So what? This isn't a contest. It's you taking what you want and getting rid of what you don't want. If you have to pay her you have to pay her.


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## Shaggy

Do not pick her up at the airport. That's a benefit a wife gets. Right now she has rejected being your wife.

Order yourself a copy of Married Mans Sex Life by Kay athol and read it quickly.

Do not be home when she returns. Have her experience coming home from the airport on her own, to a dark house.

Do send her to the couch or spare room. The marrage bed is only for those participating in the marriage.


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## CleanJerkSnatch

akashNil said:


> please do not give your wife a very long rope just because you committed a mistake in the past. My best wishes to you.


There is a saying, give an idiot enough rope and he will hang himself. Youve already given her enough rope. She gave you a false R when you were completely devoting yourself to REAL R after your episode.

I completely agree with shaggy. Dont treat this lightly, you have your dirty past but that still does not change the way you deal with waywards. I personally wouldnt pick her up, id leave her a message to get a cab and go live elsewhere for a while after her candyland vacations. Major cake eating deserves the curb therapy. If you want R, NC and the cold shoulder for her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Troubled

I a gree with Shaggy on most things.

Your outline is great follow it!

Pick her up at the airport. No hug, no kiss, no small talk.

Utter silence.

Let it eat her alive. If she gets angry just tell her we will talk when we get home.

Have your letter in front of you. Use those exact points while calmly discussing the condition of your marriage and her A.

If she has no decision or does not choose you calmly get up and hand her the D papers you pulled off the web.

Ask her to fill them out. Tell her this is not what you want but you refuse to be involved with her infidelity.

If she brings up your previous A, tell her you knew it was wrong and chose her and your marriage on the spot. You never looked back.

Then walk away and move her crap out of the bedroom. 

Do it.

HM64


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## TroubledInMI

I've had no contact with WW since we got off the phone early yesterday morning, when I said don't get on the plane until the A is over. She texted me last night, late, said it had been a rough day, she was going to bed, and would talk to me tomorrow. Rough day? For her? Like I give a sh*t how rough's is been for her. I didn't respond. An hour later, she texts again, asked what I was thinking. Seriously? Like everyone following this thread, she knows I have no problem expressing my thoughts with LOTS of words. Like what I was thinking would fit in a text. I did not respond.

I went to bed, got some sorely needed sleep since I've been seriously sleep deprived and it shows in my posts. Unfortunately, I woke up at 4 am as usual and couldn't shut off my brain. So I organized and typed up my thoughts about "what I was thinking". I didn't send them, just got them out. But basically, I've been thinking:
- I miss my wife. I haven't seen her in a long time. I would love to see her, and if she wants to talk, I would enthusiastically welcome it. This person texting me is not my wife.
- My wife had an affair, one which I'm in a unique position to understand, one which I can forgive, and I'm willing to work through. But this person barely acknowledges it's existence, minimizes it, says it "has nothing to do with her staying or leaving" (?!), continues to lie about and conceal contact with OM, and continues to cheat. This isn't betrayal and humiliation any longer. This is cruel, demoralizing, and disgusting. I *can't* understand that, can't forgive that, and want no part of that.
- I added the detailed "report" from OM's wife, how similar OM and WW's moral compasses are aligned, and that perhaps she is indeed right. Maybe they would have a better future together. I added OMW's cell number.
- Because the A is not over, and WW has refused to take any action in any direction, I cannot be married to her any longer. I do not *want* to be married to her any longer. I *do* want her to move out as soon as possible. I *am* filing for divorce.

Like I said, I only wrote it and printed it out so I can digest it. I went back to bed, wanted to sleep some more, wake up, and make sure I still feel the same, since I haven't been able to trust my thoughts for more than 5 minutes.

WW texted me again early this morning, asking if I was picking her up at the airport or if she should get a ride. I did not respond. I'm catching up on forum responses, and I feel I am thinking exactly the same as I wrote, and agree with Shaggy. This person needing a ride from the airport is *not* my wife. She's someone I don't even recognize, who happens to get mail at my house. I have *nothing* to talk about with this person. She's not even someone I could be friends with. But, if she happens to run into my wife, it would be great if she'd ask her to call me. But this person is a poison to me. This person can find their own ride.

I'm going to think quite seriously about booking a hotel for the night and not being here, with simply a note on the bedroom door asking her to sleep in the guest room, and continue no contact with her. I feel I must file for divorce TODAY. My marriage, as it stands now, is over. Surely has been since my own affair. And I believe at this point, that the only person who can stop the divorce is my wife, should she ever show up again.


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## Sara8

TroubledInMI said:


> Thank God I found this place. Although, judging by the sheer number of newbies like myself, I'm unsure how much comfort I will really find. This is a club no one wants to be in. It seems infidelity is rampant. My d-day was a few days ago, and like just about everyone else who's gone through this, I couldn't believe that MY wife would ever do what she's done.
> 
> First, though, in the spirit of honesty, I have a confession. I myself cheated on my wife four years ago. I never thought I would in a million years. Like many marriages, we forgot how to communicate, forgot how to really pay attention to one another, read each other and respond correctly to each other's needs. And we drifted apart, never really talked about anything important, stopped sharing hopes, our sex life went to nearly nil, and what there was of it was unfulfilling for us both. An opportunity came along, I made a bad decision, which I rationalized, which led to another, which I justified, etc., and the next thing you know, I was having a sexual affair. So I am fully aware of what the WS fog is all about. I never fell in love with the OP, never really developed any sort of strong romantic connection, but did really enjoy the attention and the sex. It made me feel all those things that my W made me feel when our love was new. The A lasted a few months before I was caught, but not once during the entire time had I ever considered leaving my W. I loved her, and I admit, I was cake-eating. Of course, the A devastated my W, created significant additional depression on top of other long-term (non-marriage, since childhood) depression. I tried some counseling, we tried some counseling, and I thought things were getting better. She had her triggers, of course, but I did the best I could to be agreeable, open, gave her access to my phone, email, whatever she wanted. I've made every effort to be as transparent as possible. However, I think what we really had was a false reconciliation, and swept too many issues under the rug. Almost three years after her d-day, she had a small breakdown, seemed desperate, and wasn't sure she could do this anymore. I asked what I could do, she asked if we could move. I didn't hesitate. I said absolutely. We put the house on the market, immediately shopped for a new one in another state hundreds of miles away, found one, and moved within months. Given the crap market, our old house sat for a year, and we took a huge loss. But it hasn't caused financial strain, and I had real hopes that getting a fresh start would help our recovery. But she continued to be unhappy. I continued to do all the wrong things in terms of reading her needs, responding to them, and though I thought I was being the best husband I could be, she was equally continuing to do all the wrong things in terms of communicating her needs in a way I could understand. Instead, she has a habit of bottling them up until the cork blows off. See a familiar pattern here? I've spent all weekend reading as much as I possibly can, been lurking on this site, and our journey has been so textbook that I could take a dozen other stories and insert our names in them. Now on to my d-day.


As a betrayed spouse it is really difficult for me to feel sorry for you. 

Most marriages rarely survive past five years after an EA/PA. Most women cheat for emotional reason, not sex. Except in rare cases. So usually when a woman cheats the marriage it's an exit affair. 

A revenge affair is a very normal desire after learning someone you have gone out of the way to be faithful to through thick and thin, did not feel the same way and betrayed you. 

The desire to level the playing field is overwhelming sometimes in a Betrayed spouse. 

Also since cheating takes away the specialness the faithful spouse once felt in the relationship, the BS is vulnerable to a new person who makes her feel loved and special again. 

Sorry you are here


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## Sara8

Shaggy said:


> Do not pick her up at the airport. That's a benefit a wife gets. Right now she has rejected being your wife.
> 
> Order yourself a copy of Married Mans Sex Life by Kay athol and read it quickly.
> 
> Do not be home when she returns. Have her experience coming home from the airport on her own, to a dark house.
> 
> Do send her to the couch or spare room. The marrage bed is only for those participating in the marriage.


Alas, the macho thing might backfire with a revenge affair. 

Remember, he cheated first. Him going dark may only make her feel more insecure about him being their for her through thick and thin and in the future. 

A revenge affair is a different animal and different tactics are require. 

IMO, as a betrayed spouse, he needs show her that he will forgive her. 

He should be somewhat detached but kind and civil and tell assure her he still wants to make things work, if they can both promise not to cheat again.

Too add:

The reason typical affair response will backfire is that she may really love you but no longer trusts you and that is why she had an affair. She may be hoping you end the marriage so she doesn't have to.


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## Shaggy

Make sure you secure your computer and clear browsing history to this site especially. She will likely go through your computer looking for what you've been doing about the A.

Get yourself a voice activated recorder from Walmart/bestbuy etc. - You want to put one in her car secured by velco, and keep one on yourself when talking to her. Toss the receipts in a garbage can at a gas station/store - but not home. Consider paying cash for them.

If you have a shared computer - put a keylogger on it if you can.

Remember - you now come and go as you please without pre-clearing it with her, or giving detail. Spend time out, but stay living at home. Do not let her A run you out of your own house.


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## dblkman

I'm not quite sure I believe it was a revenge affair, if it was a revenge affair why is she having difficult letting go of the om? Revenge affairs are usually defined as a sex only affair with little emotions attached to it, in essence your goal is to GET EVEN with your spouse. 

Their relationship had troubles well before either one cheated, it could have just as easily have been her that cheated first. At this point it really does not matter who did what first!


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## Sara8

TroubledInMI said:


> WW texted me again early this morning, asking if I was picking her up at the airport or if she should get a ride. I did not respond. I'm catching up on forum responses, and I feel I am thinking exactly the same as I wrote, and agree with Shaggy. This person needing a ride from the airport is *not* my wife. She's someone I don't even recognize, who happens to get mail at my house. I have *nothing* to talk about with this person. She's not even someone I could be friends with. But, if she happens to run into my wife, it would be great if she'd ask her to call me. But this person is a poison to me. This person can find their own ride.
> 
> I'm going to think quite seriously about booking a hotel for the night and not being here, with simply a note on the bedroom door asking her to sleep in the guest room, and continue no contact with her. I feel I must file for divorce TODAY. My marriage, as it stands now, is over. Surely has been since my own affair. And I believe at this point, that the only person who can stop the divorce is my wife, should she ever show up again.


As a betrayed wife I can see that your tactics are all wrong wrong wrong. 

Because you cheated first, your wife's biggest fear has always been that you won't be there for her when she needs you. 

Your behavior now is proving her worst fear to her. 

Again, a revenge affair is a different animal. 

Is this a silly test. Yes, most likely it is a test and a silly one at that, but it's understandable given the situation. 

She has leveled the playing field. She may be pushing it farther than you but, IMO, it's still a test. One you are failing.

Read what you are saying. She had all those feelings yet she stayed with you.


----------



## Shaggy

Sara8 said:


> Alas, the macho thing might backfire with a revenge affair.
> 
> Remember, he cheated first. Him going dark may only make her feel more insecure about him being their for her through thick and thin and in the future.
> 
> A revenge affair is a different animal and different tactics are require.
> 
> IMO, as a betrayed spouse, he needs show her that he will forgive her.
> 
> He should be somewhat detached but kind and civil and tell assure her he still wants to make things work, if they can both promise not to cheat again.
> 
> Too add:
> 
> The reason typical affair response will backfire is that she may really love you but no longer trusts you and that is why she had an affair. She may be hoping you end the marriage so she doesn't have to.


I don't think this is a revenge affair. The OM is obviously a long time player and the wife he is his latest conquest. She thinks his lines are truth and she's in love with how good a listener he is etc. So I think this is the standard run of the mill affair.


He's tried the talking and being nice on the phone and all it got him was her talking longer to the OM and refusing to end the affair.

She keeps running to the OM for support here. Hopefully the OP's efforts to cause OM grief will get him to throw her under the bus. She needs to see herself being alone to shake her out of the fog.


----------



## Sara8

dblkman said:


> I'm not quite sure I believe it was a revenge affair, if it was a revenge affair why is she having difficult letting go of the om? Revenge affairs are usually defined as a sex only affair with little emotions attached to it, in essence your goal is to GET EVEN with your spouse.
> 
> Their relationship had troubles well before either one cheated, it could have just as easily have been her that cheated first. At this point it really does not matter who did what first!


If she was a faithful wife, she is obviously not a sex addict type of women. 

Normal women have affairs due to an emotional disconnect. It's never about sex. 

Yes this man complimented her and fed her wounded pride and self esteem, and yes she is now emotionally attached. 

This guy can break that attachment, but being macho and detached is the absolute worst thing he can do, IMO.


----------



## TroubledInMI

Sara, you make some excellent points, but I feel you may not have read the entire thread. From the beginning, I did nothing but show my willingness to forgive, my desire to reconcile. I basically became somewhat of a doormat letting her know that all she had to do was end the affair and come home, and I would go to any length required to try and build a better marriage. I tried acknowledging failures in my own character and behaviour that contributed to an environment which allowed us both to behave this way, etc.

Many tell me that all of that was wrong to do, that all I was doing was making myself less attractive, etc. Maybe they're right. But I love my wife, want our marriage to work, and had to take the chance. There is no chance that my wife feels she can't come home to me and work things out any time she wants to. None. I haven't communicated well in the past, but in this regard, I've communicated extremely clearly. All she has to do is end her affair first. She's been unable to do that.

I am arriving at the conclusion you've just stated, that her affair is an exit affair. She wanted out anyway, and this guy is just a catalyst. If not him, someone else. She's a very non-confrontational person, and I believe she does not have the courage to end the marriage herself, and has grown weary waiting for me to get unhappy enough to do it for her. Having an affair which she's done such a poor job of concealing is a subconscious way of forcing the issue. I love her. I want her back. But if it's over, I have to admit it.


----------



## Sara8

Shaggy said:


> She keeps running to the OM for support here. Hopefully the OP's efforts to cause OM grief will get him to throw her under the bus. She needs to see herself being alone to shake her out of the fog.


Because this is a revenge affair, she has likely already felt alone for a long time after learning her husband was unfaithful. 

Making her feel abandoned and alone will only reinforce her emotional attachment to the OM. 

Sorry, he cheated first, he best eat crow, if he wants her back.

I guarantee you this is a test. An immature one perhaps, but a test nonetheless.


----------



## Sara8

TroubledInMI said:


> Sara, you make some excellent points, but I feel you may not have read the entire thread. From the beginning, I did nothing but show my willingness to forgive, my desire to reconcile. I basically became somewhat of a doormat letting her know that all she had to do was end the affair and come home, and I would go to any length required to try and build a better marriage. I tried acknowledging failures in my own character and behaviour that contributed to an environment which allowed us both to behave this way, etc.
> 
> Many tell me that all of that was wrong to do, that all I was doing was making myself less attractive, etc. Maybe they're right. But I love my wife, want our marriage to work, and had to take the chance. There is no chance that my wife feels she can't come home to me and work things out any time she wants to. None. I haven't communicated well in the past, but in this regard, I've communicated extremely clearly. All she has to do is end her affair first. She's been unable to do that.
> 
> I am arriving at the conclusion you've just stated, that her affair is an exit affair. She wanted out anyway, and this guy is just a catalyst. If not him, someone else. She's a very non-confrontational person, and I believe she does not have the courage to end the marriage herself, and has grown weary waiting for me to get unhappy enough to do it for her. Having an affair which she's done such a poor job of concealing is a subconscious way of forcing the issue. I love her. I want her back. But if it's over, I have to admit it.


If it's an exit affair you have nothing to lose by staying to see whether or not the affair will fizzle out. 

Your affair put her in a fragile emotional state. 

One in which she has been distrustful and fearful and humiliated and felt replaced. 

She never processed those feelings properly with Individual counsleing perhaps. 

She likely does want you to feel humiliated, too 

What did you expect. 

I don't think this is an exit affair because your wife works and is financially independent. 

If she wanted to leave after your affair she could have. 

typically women who are financially dependent on the spouse stay and the have an exit affair when they find another man they feel they can trust. 

This guy doesn't see like someone trustworthy. She will wake up. 

I think you need to stick around, not file, and take it, for awhile longer.

Let her know you will forgive her. 

Don't rush to file.


----------



## Sara8

Too add:

Stop focusing on your failures. Remind her of the good times you two have had. 

Start working out and doing things for yourself while remaining kind and open to her. 

Ask her to come back to you, calmly. 

Tell her if she wants to go you will let her go, but that is not what you want. 

Don't beg cry or plead, Just calmly ensure her of your love and that you two can get past this.


----------



## warlock07

I don't agree. She lost any moral high ground when she cheated.


----------



## TroubledInMI

Sara8 said:


> If it's an exit affair you have nothing to lose by staying to see whether or not the affair will fizzle out.
> 
> Your affair put her in a fragile emotional state.
> 
> One in which she has been distrustful and fearful and humiliated and felt replaced.
> 
> She never processed those feelings properly with Individual counsleing perhaps.
> 
> She likely does want you to feel humiliated, too


I absolutely agree.


----------



## warlock07

Sara, with due respect, do you think you might be projecting?


----------



## TroubledInMI

I don't think it's a revenge affair. I think she wanted out and needed a springboard: either OM whisking her away, or H kicking her out. OM's a roach, and has nothing to offer. I have not kicked her out. I just can't me married to her while she continues to carry on the A. I'm no saint, but I ended my A IMMEDIATELY upon discovery. She has not. I simply cannot sit around while she openly conducts a sexual relationship with another man while I know and am married to her. Divorce proceedings take some time to complete. She will have plenty of opportunity to get off the bus at any time.


----------



## Sara8

warlock07 said:


> I don't agree. She lost any moral high ground when she cheated.


If he wants to save the relationship, it has to stop being a tit for tat thing, like yesterday. 

It needs to start with him.


----------



## Sara8

warlock07 said:


> Sara, with due respect, do you think you might be projecting?



My thoughts do not fit the textbook definition of a projection. 

I have filed and I am not looking back. I did not cheat my spouse did and I did not have a revenge affair.

She has not filed. He has filed

My situation is totally different. 

Please look up the proper definition of a projection or projective identification.

BTW: I don't approve of revenge affairs.


----------



## Sara8

warlock07 said:


> I don't agree. She lost any moral high ground when she cheated.


Absolutely agree, Warlock. 

She has lost any moral high ground she once held. Sadly.

She leveled the playing field. Childish, but hurt people do often do childish things.


----------



## turnera

TroubledInMI said:


> I am arriving at the conclusion you've just stated, that her affair is an exit affair. She wanted out anyway, and this guy is just a catalyst. If not him, someone else. She's a very non-confrontational person, and I believe she does not have the courage to end the marriage herself, and has grown weary waiting for me to get unhappy enough to do it for her.


If that's the case, you should be spending this time wracking your brain for every way possible to make this marriage - should it survive - better than ever. So there's no REASON to want to leave the marriage.


----------



## Sara8

TroubledInMI said:


> I don't think it's a revenge affair. I think she wanted out and needed a springboard: either OM whisking her away, or H kicking her out. OM's a roach, and has nothing to offer. I have not kicked her out. I just can't me married to her while she continues to carry on the A. I'm no saint, but I ended my A IMMEDIATELY upon discovery. She has not. I simply cannot sit around while she openly conducts a sexual relationship with another man while I know and am married to her. Divorce proceedings take some time to complete. She will have plenty of opportunity to get off the bus at any time.


Okay, I agree, convey that to her in a calm kindly way, not a macho way. 

You gave her the opportunity to change her mind. You left the door open. That is all I ask. 

Now, if she does come back, please don't cheat as a tit for tat thing. 

IMO, this relationship might be salvageable once she gets her ya ya's out or starts to see the OM for who he is. 

She obvioiusly loves you. She stayed after your affair. The hurt was festering though. Too bad she didn't get IC.


----------



## TroubledInMI

Sara8 said:


> My thoughts do not fit the textbook definition of a projection.
> 
> I have filed and I am not looking back. I did not cheat my spouse did and I did not have a revenge affair.
> 
> She has not filed. He has filed
> 
> My situation is totally different.
> 
> Please look up the proper definition of a projection or projective identification.
> 
> BTW: I don't approve of revenge affairs.


I realize my own A changes the dynamic considerably, but outside of that, you and I are both the BS here. In each case, our spouse cheated. The WS did not file. The BS filed. The difference in your situation and mine is that you DO have a moral highground that I don't have.


----------



## turnera

TroubledInMI said:


> I ended my A IMMEDIATELY upon discovery. She has not.


Again, men have affairs for sex, usually. Women have affairs for emotional connection. It was EASY for you to end your affair and run home because you were using the OW. For sex. She was always expendable. Your wife has convinced herself that her OM is in lurve with her. And she probably THINKS she feels the same (as the PEAs are pushing her at this point). So would YOU just walk away immediately from a person you think you love? I doubt it.

IIWY, the only thing I would do at this point is text her the OMW's number and explain what OMW said about this wonderful man she's involved with.


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

Sara8 said:


> If he wants to save the relationship, it has to stop being a tit for tat thing, like yesterday.
> 
> It needs to start with him.




Yes, he should give her a massage when she talk to her OM that when He ride her bare back it pained but she enjoyed it.because he cheated her and want to save the marriage. For me its Bull no Horse sh!t. He cheated never means, she can make him a cuckold or doormat or teat him like a sh!t.


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## Chris Taylor

Whether or not this is a "revenge affair" doesn't matter.

In post #9, troubled stated that when his affair ended, " I ended my A immediately, with no contact, and no conditions. No closure, no lingering, etc. I basically set down the same condition for her."

That was fair. He did it and she should have done so also. She didn't. Troubled has (probably wrongly) given her more time to change her mind and she hasn't.

My opinion is that she can take a taxi from the airport, pick up her things and live somewhere else. He should NOT leave the house that night and continue the divorce procedure.


----------



## Sara8

TroubledInMI said:


> I realize my own A changes the dynamic considerably, but outside of that, you and I are both the BS here. In each case, our spouse cheated. The WS did not file. The BS filed. The difference in your situation and mine is that you DO have a moral highground that I don't have.


I agree and that is why I filed. 

Had I cheated first, my response would be totally different. 

Also, my STBEH did not behave as well as you have described yourself behaving after Dday. 

He continued contact, trickle truthed and lied, lied, lied. 

I did get IC, and the good people here talked me out of a revenge affair. 

I am not even dating at this point, and have no desire to. I am too sad about my ruined marriage. 

The fact that your wife is even still around give she is financially independent is a sign that she does not want to end her marriage 

Her affair is a cry for attention and a misguided way for her to regain some of her lost self esteem.


----------



## TroubledInMI

Sara8 said:


> Okay, I agree, convey that to her in a calm kindly way, not a macho way.
> 
> You gave her the opportunity to change her mind. You left the door open. That is all I ask.
> 
> Now, if she does come back, please don't cheat as a tit for tat thing.
> 
> IMO, this relationship might be salvageable once she gets her ya ya's out or starts to see the OM for who he is.
> 
> She obvioiusly loves you. She stayed after your affair. The hurt was festering though. Too bad she didn't get IC.


I agree with everything you're saying. Her attachment to OM is strong, and that's MY fault. I'm doing everything I can to get him out of the picture. Why she is in her fog, I cannot communicate to her with words. That is not working. My door is open. I am not trying to be macho. I am trying to show her that I want nothing more than to rebuild our marriage. It's been torn down to the ground. We have more experience and more tools now than ever to make it better. And I'm willing to do that. But she has to break out of her fog, see OM for what he is, see me, warts and all, for who I am and what I'm willing to do.

My reason for filing is to demonstrate, without words falling on deaf ears, that I love her enough to let her make her own choice and be with someone else if she truly believes she'll be happier, but that I'm still here waiting with welcome arms. But I am starting the clock to protect whatever shreds of dignity we both have left.


----------



## Sara8

Kallan Pavithran said:


> Yes, he should give her a massage when she talk to her OM that when He ride her bare back it pained but she enjoyed it.because he cheated her and want to save the marriage. For me its Bull no Horse sh!t. He cheated never means, she can make him a cuckold or doormat or teat him like a sh!t.


why not. It levels the playing field. 

I have talked to people who say that a revenge affair helped them totally understand the spouses pain. 

It kept them from cheating ever again. 

I personally believe a revenge affair is harmful to the betrayed spouse. 

But, the original WS of all people should be willing to forgive more readily than anyone.


----------



## TroubledInMI

Kallan Pavithran said:


> Yes, he should give her a massage when she talk to her OM that when He ride her bare back it pained but she enjoyed it.because he cheated her and want to save the marriage. For me its Bull no Horse sh!t. He cheated never means, she can make him a cuckold or doormat or teat him like a sh!t.


Wow, buddy, maybe you can go start a thread of your own to work out your considerable anguish rather than highjacking mine. This place is full of people with lots of experience, compassion, and sage advice. You are clearly not one of them so perhaps you should just lurk for a while.


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## turnera

Have you exposed this to her family and friends and priest and best friend?


----------



## Sara8

TroubledInMI said:


> I agree with everything you're saying. Her attachment to OM is strong, and that's MY fault. I'm doing everything I can to get him out of the picture. Why she is in her fog, I cannot communicate to her with words. That is not working. My door is open. I am not trying to be macho. I am trying to show her that I want nothing more than to rebuild our marriage. It's been torn down to the ground. We have more experience and more tools now than ever to make it better. And I'm willing to do that. But she has to break out of her fog, see OM for what he is, see me, warts and all, for who I am and what I'm willing to do.
> 
> My reason for filing is to demonstrate, without words falling on deaf ears, that I love her enough to let her make her own choice and be with someone else if she truly believes she'll be happier, but that I'm still here waiting with welcome arms. But I am starting the clock to protect whatever shreds of dignity we both have left.


Okay. Don't be in a rush to finalize the D.

Yes, she is in the fog, but I think she will come out of it. 

Start working on yourself. Show her your the man she wants you to be. 

Don't beg or plead, but stay in touch and be kind and calm, remind her the door is open and you will forgive, and not cheat again as a way to get revenge of your own. 

What do you have to lose. 

Either you get her back or you don't. 

At least you tried your darndest if that is what you want.


----------



## TroubledInMI

TroubledInMI said:


> Wow, buddy, maybe you can go start a thread of your own to work out your considerable anguish rather than highjacking mine. This place is full of people with lots of experience, compassion, and sage advice. You are clearly not one of them so perhaps you should just lurk for a while.


I hope I have not misread your post. I may have knee-jerked in my response. I thought you were saying that I *should* lay down and be a cuckold, and if that's what you're saying, my response stands. If, once again, I've misunderstood, my apologies.


----------



## turnera

And never make such a big decision when you're in the middle of intense feelings. If anything, you two can separate and give yourselves six months to let things settle out. While you continue to fight the affair through exposure.

btw, if you do end up talking to her, offer her this: offer to schedule a phone counseling session with Dr Harley of marriagebuilders.com (but do NOT go to their forums, they will eat you alive). He and his kids specialize in treating marriages broken by infidelity. He helps couples come up with no-nonsense solutions or at least agreements and helps cheaters see what they're really doing, calling them on their bullchit.


----------



## turnera

TroubledInMI said:


> I hope I have not misread your post. I may have knee-jerked in my response. I thought you were saying that I *should* lay down and be a cuckold, and if that's what you're saying, my response stands. If, once again, I've misunderstood, my apologies.


 He was being sarcastic and saying you're not manning up enough.


----------



## In_The_Wind

For what its worth I had an affair on my spouse after 9 yrs of marriage it went on for about 6 months and she found out during mc and she had a revenge affair although i was hurt I understood its hard to call the kettle black when your a black pot anyway it pissed me off and i moved out for about a week and basically did the 180 although i didnt know what the 180 was at the time she said that she wanted me to feel what she was feeling and that it was a one time thing and she was willing to go to mc if i was and she wanted me to move back home so I did and we went to mc for 6 months this was over 3 yrs ago our marriage has never been better and this summer we celebrated 12 yrs of marriage thats my experience anyway I agree with sara and i feel its important to try all you can stand that way in your heart you know you did what you could do and would never wonder or have any regrets in the future 

Good Luck TIM


----------



## TroubledInMI

In_The_Wind said:


> our marriage has never been better


I sure hope I can pull this off, too.


----------



## Sara8

TroubledInMI said:


> I sure hope I can pull this off, too.


Me too. I will be cheering for you.


----------



## TroubledInMI

Maybe I should have not responded to her texts, but I broke down and sent a simple text (in answer to her airport ride question), "Is your affair over?"

I got no response, so a while later, I simply texted "If you have to check with him first, then I have my answer." She responded, saying that no, she didn't need to check w/him first, and that she was getting a ride. She then texted that she knew I reached out to his company and his wife. I said, "So I have my answer then".

Looks folks, I don't want to get into a tit-for-tat thing here. I don't want to argue with her. I'm probably doing that I suppose. I simply want one thing, end the affair or don't, but for God's sake, let me know. Am I on Mars here? Am I asking for too much? I'm trying to man up. And the man in me says I will not be married to a woman who is willing to openly carry on an affair after it's been exposed. She won't even answer the damn question. So I have to assume I have my answer, right?

Is filing today the wrong thing to do? I'm not sure what else to do that will shake her out of her fog, or if, as suggested, perhaps she's not in a fog and it's me who can't see the writing on the wall.


----------



## TroubledInMI

And to add, I also sent an email earlier that simply outlined the info I got from OM's wife. Nothing more. I haven't gotten a read receipt, so not sure if she's read it yet.


----------



## turnera

If you need to know if the affair ended, just say 'hand me your phone'.

Filing is fine. She needs the wakeup call. You can always cancel it. 

Yes, you have your answer.


----------



## dblkman

Troubled, 

you should file! If things change then you can retract it at any given time but you need to show her (because actions speak louder than text) that you cannot and will not tolerate this. REGARDLESS if you did it first you will not be kept in limbo. Heck she would keep you on the fence forever if you don't.


----------



## Sara8

TroubledInMI said:


> Maybe I should have not responded to her texts, but I broke down and sent a simple text (in answer to her airport ride question), "Is your affair over?"
> 
> I got no response, so a while later, I simply texted "If you have to check with him first, then I have my answer." She responded, saying that no, she didn't need to check w/him first, and that she was getting a ride. She then texted that she knew I reached out to his company and his wife. I said, "So I have my answer then".
> 
> Looks folks, I don't want to get into a tit-for-tat thing here. I don't want to argue with her. I'm probably doing that I suppose. I simply want one thing, end the affair or don't, but for God's sake, let me know. Am I on Mars here? Am I asking for too much? I'm trying to man up. And the man in me says I will not be married to a woman who is willing to openly carry on an affair after it's been exposed. She won't even answer the damn question. So I have to assume I have my answer, right?
> 
> Is filing today the wrong thing to do? I'm not sure what else to do that will shake her out of her fog, or if, as suggested, perhaps she's not in a fog and it's me who can't see the writing on the wall.


Can you afford to hire a detective to get your answer?

Can you tell her if she will not let you know that the affair is over that you will have no choice but to file. 

Can you (do you want to )Tell her the door is still open, until the D is final. You don't even have to move out to file, if you can't afford it. 

Ask her to move to another room in the house. 

That will also enable you to keep an eye on her behavior. 

No you are not asking too much. She needs to tell you whether or not the affair is over, you can't move forward with R until she does.


----------



## walkonmars

TroubledInMI said:


> Am I asking for too much? I'm trying to man up. And the man in me says *I will not be married to a woman who is willing to openly carry on an affair after it's been exposed.* She won't even answer the damn question. So I have to assume I have my answer, right?
> 
> *Is filing today the wrong thing to do?*


After reading your initial post I had absolutely no sympathy for your predicament. However, after reading of your subsequent actions, train of thought, and willingness to fully accept culpability for your actions IN ADDITION to (even to this very day) forgive her and move forward as long as she ends her affair I have done a "180" with my opinion of your situation. 

IMHO you should continue with your plans of divorce. As you say, she can get off the bus during the lengthy process. And I'm fairly certain (if I read you right) that you'll be open to R and renewal even after the divorce becomes final (if it comes to that). 

In doing this you are keeping your dignity and self-respect while keeping your heart open to her. You are a man of distinction and extraordinary emotional strength. I'm glad I didn't just write off your initial post as just another loser. You've taught me a lesson. So thank you for that.


----------



## cabin fever

My WW was very similar to yours. Our Situations are REALLY similar. 


I truly believe the only thing that saved my marriage were actaully 2 different things. 

1. file for Divorce. (I actually made her file) 
2. complete 180. 

It took a little while, but mine came outta her fog. 

the only other thing I would do, is let her know she is throwing way what could be a great life together for a known cheater. Good luck with that.


----------



## TroubledInMI

walkonmars said:


> You are a man of distinction and extraordinary emotional strength.


Not so much today. I have to get myself together big time today because quite frankly, I'm a mess.


----------



## Sara8

As others have advised, and IMO, it is best now after your latest conversation to tell her she must cut off OM or you will file and until D you will consider reconciling, then avoid texting her. 

Let her wonder what you are up to. Let her have some rats running around her brain.

Be polite but distant. Be open to her if she wants to talk, but be distant.


----------



## Will_Kane

TroubledInMI said:


> Not so much today. I have to get myself together big time today because quite frankly, I'm a mess.


Stay strong. She DOES have to check with him to see if the affair is over. That is a good sign. She will not quit the affair until the fantasy ends. He is pulling back. She is noticing. TELl HER WHAT OMW SAID ABOUT HIM!

As of now, the affair is still on, so file. Make her choose while OM is backpedaling.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

Kallan Pavithran said:


> Yes, he should give her a massage when she talk to her OM that when He ride her bare back it pained but she enjoyed it.because he cheated her and want to save the marriage. For me its Bull no Horse sh!t. *He cheated never means, *she can make him a cuckold or doormat or treat him like a sh!t.




I dont know which part you misread. first Read the text I quoted. I replayed to that quoted text. 

You need not reach out to her for conformation that she ended the A, she is still in contact with OM means she is in A.

Even after getting caught, if she is not ready to cut it off with OM shows that it was not revenge A, May be an exit A. Revenge A is for hurting the person and making him/Her to understand the pain BS gone through. There wont be any hesitation to cut off all contact as they wanted to be with their spouse.

She may not be getting the Replays she wanted as she expected as OM is a player, so she is stringing you along. Dont allow this.


----------



## TroubledInMI

Sara8 said:


> As others have advised, and IMO, it is best now after your latest conversation to tell her she must cut off OM or you will file and until D you will consider reconciling, then avoid texting her.


This is pretty much all I've been asking her to do since this started.


----------



## TroubledInMI

TroubledInMI said:


> And to add, I also sent an email earlier that simply outlined the info I got from OM's wife. Nothing more. I haven't gotten a read receipt, so not sure if she's read it yet.


I got my read receipt. And later got a text "at least I know I can take care of myself seeing as that's what I'll be doing".

I just filled out the papers. My heart is broken. I don't think I can stay here tonight.


----------



## In_The_Wind

TroubledInMI said:


> I got my read receipt. And later got a text "at least I know I can take care of myself seeing as that's what I'll be doing".
> 
> I just filled out the papers. My heart is broken. I don't think I can stay here tonight.


TIM I would suggest that you also start exercising taking care of yourself developing some new hobbies and reconnecting with friends exercise is one of the best things you can do for yourself during this time it will help you sleep and feel better about yourself sorry to hear the latest developments i still think yall should talk in person versus email or text thats just my opinion just because you file doesnt mean thats its over


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## Sara8

tdwal said:


> So now she called you on your ultimatum and you reacted how you said you would. Don't run away, sit down and talk with her, you would still be open to R before its final.


In the wind, and TDwal both make good points. 

You told her where you stand. I am not surprised by her reaction. 

You shouldn't be either, IMO. 

If you want to reconcile, please don't let your hurt pride and ego get in the way. 

Try to communicate with her. Read some books on infidelity at the library, read several to get differing points of view. 

This may still be salvageable, if that is WHAT YOU WANT.


----------



## Acabado

> I got my read receipt. And later got a text "at least I know I can take care of myself seeing as that's what I'll be doing".


What does it mean? She's well aware what a loser MOM is but she will keep him anyway with her eyes opened?

Sorry man, Just Let Them Go


----------



## TroubledInMI

Someone suggested marriagebuilders. Anyone here actually gotten in person or over the phone counselling from Dr. Harley or kids, or just read the books? I'd like to get several of his books. Are they available for kindle?


----------



## Machiavelli

Question: Who's infertile, you or WW? Since you're both in your 40's, my guess is it's her. 

Advice: Quit talking relationship with her. You've filled out the papers, give them to her and shut up about relationship stuff...unless she comes crawling. Right now, you need to start dropping the pork, take up weight training (physique), get some new clothes, and a new haircut. I don't care how much you like your hair, got to some chick barber and give her free reign.

Don't leave the house. She needs to see you dressed for a night in the meat markets as you walk out the door in front of her. Then got to a movie or to hear some live music.

Women want what they can't have, which is usually that top tier of Alpha/Sigma males. Think 80/20 rule: 80% of the cheating wives are getting it from 20% of the cheating males (the successful adulterers like your WW's OM). The guy is completely unavailable to you wife in any other capacity than as a stunt d!ck. File, start moving on, let her see that other women desire you (we hope), and you may have a miniscule chance you may get her back, because women take their attraction cues from other women. This sounds completely whacked, but your groveling after you were busted may have contributed to your devaluation as a man. Notice how OM makes no apologies to OMW, yet remains married. Twisted, I know. But this is all about a woman's limbic brain, not her cortex. ¿Comprende?

Start reading that copy of Married Man Sex Life you ordered. Read the blog, too. To get up to speed on women in general, read Roissy.


----------



## Machiavelli

TroubledInMI said:


> Someone suggested marriagebuilders. Anyone here actually gotten in person or over the phone counselling from Dr. Harley or kids, or just read the books? I'd like to get several of his books. Are they available for kindle?


The only thing you need from there is Plan B. You need Roissy, NMMNG (even though you're the guy that started the adultery cycle, and that would normally be an Alpha/Sigma behavior, everything else you've done is to signal Gamma male qualities) and MMSL.


----------



## Shaggy

I think your approach of no marriage until the A is stopped is the right thing.

I do not see you doing any tit for tat, I see you strongly setting an extremely reasonable boundary and not accommodating her crossing it.

Completely ignore any suggestions that you deserve this, or even caused this.

She is the one who chose to cheat. Entirely. If she wanted to divorce because of your A, there are much more honest ways.

Refuse to pay for her leaving the marriage as well. She has financial obligations to the marriage until the Dis signed. That means she continues to contribute to mortgage, insurance , etc, even if she moves out.


----------



## turnera

TroubledInMI said:


> Someone suggested marriagebuilders. Anyone here actually gotten in person or over the phone counselling from Dr. Harley or kids, or just read the books? I'd like to get several of his books. Are they available for kindle?


 I've known several people who used Dr Harley's phone sessions and, except for one (with a recalcitrant spouse), they all said it was worth the money and gave them really good plans for moving forward.

The books are amazing, IMO. In fact, when anyone gets married, I always give them a copy of His Needs Her Needs.

And IMO everyone should fill out the Love Buster and Emotional Needs questionnaires you can get off the website; how can you make your spouse happy if you don't know what MAKES them happy?


----------



## turnera

Machiavelli said:


> The only thing you need from there is Plan B. You need Roissy, NMMNG (even though you're the guy that started the adultery cycle, and that would normally be an Alpha/Sigma behavior, everything else you've done is to signal Gamma male qualities) and MMSL.


In the midst of infidelity, I agree. Don't do any of that stuff if your spouse is cheating.

If you ever get to a place of repairing the marriage, by all means, use it.


----------



## Falene

TroubledInMI said:


> I got my read receipt. And later got a text "at least I know I can take care of myself seeing as that's what I'll be doing".
> 
> I just filled out the papers. My heart is broken. I don't think I can stay here tonight.


What do you think she means by that? I read it as though you were done with here and so was the OM so she will just have to take care of herself? I don't know.

You need to slow down emotionally and try to find an inner balance somehow. She is in a fog right now and I would take any responses from her with a grain of salt. I am not saying to stop the D paperwork, not at all, but you are dealing with a kind of crazy person here and need to remember that. For your own sanity and the greatest chance of having a successful R try not to ping pong. Stay at home in case she comes by. 

I sense you have a great empathy towards her. Convey that. Have you told her that while what she has done is totally inexcusable, you also really know how badly you hurt her with your A? 

I question what significance your A played in hers. I know you feel that she did it as a way out. True or not, your A is the root. The fact she knew what it was to be betrayed and then did it to you is HUGE in my opinion. That is the greatest message in all of this from her and my heart goes out to her cheating arse for what she must have had to rationalize to be able to do such a thing.

Hang in there. Take a very deep breathe. No rash decisions. Move with caution. No matter what the outcome you are in for a very long ride. My best to you both.


----------



## cabin fever

Machiavelli said:


> Question: Who's infertile, you or WW? Since you're both in your 40's, my guess is it's her.
> 
> Advice: Quit talking relationship with her. You've filled out the papers, give them to her and shut up about relationship stuff...unless she comes crawling. Right now, you need to start dropping the pork, take up weight training (physique), get some new clothes, and a new haircut. I don't care how much you like your hair, got to some chick barber and give her free reign.
> 
> Don't leave the house. She needs to see you dressed for a night in the meat markets as you walk out the door in front of her. Then got to a movie or to hear some live music.
> 
> Women want what they can't have, which is usually that top tier of Alpha/Sigma males. Think 80/20 rule: 80% of the cheating wives are getting it from 20% of the cheating males (the successful adulterers like your WW's OM). The guy is completely unavailable to you wife in any other capacity than as a stunt d!ck. File, start moving on, let her see that other women desire you (we hope), and you may have a miniscule chance you may get her back, because women take their attraction cues from other women. This sounds completely whacked, but your groveling after you were busted may have contributed to your devaluation as a man. Notice how OM makes no apologies to OMW, yet remains married. Twisted, I know. But this is all about a woman's limbic brain, not her cortex. ¿Comprende?
> 
> Start reading that copy of Married Man Sex Life you ordered. Read the blog, too. To get up to speed on women in general, read Roissy.


agree 100%

here is a little bit I copied from MMSL for ya. 

How Walkaway Wives Run a Dirty MAP
August 19, 2012 By Athol Kay 47 Comments 

This post is going to feel like a sucker punch to some of the guys reading. Please believe me when I say I’m not trying to pin all the blame on you for her leaving or cheating on you. I’m trying to explain the dynamics at work so you can correct them. Yes indeed she did bad things and doesn’t have an excuse for it, but the hard, hard, hard truth is that unless you married a genuine Bat**** Crazy woman, you have always been responsible to be the leader of your marriage. Some part of the problem was yours to fix and manage. If you think the Titanic sunk because some ***** put icebergs in the way, you need to take it up with the Captain.

Okay… now that I’ve warmed everybody up to taking this particular dose of the Red Pill rectally, let’s begin…

One of the things Betaized men don’t understand is how they help create the situation where their wife just walks away from the marriage. It’s fairly rare that a wife is just going to wake up one morning and decide she’s going to act like The Joker found the Batcave and blow it all up. It builds and builds and builds and then she makes her move. The bad news for the Betaized husband is that a lot of the effort put into that building, has come from him.

Constant deference and catering to a wife frames her as having a higher Sex Rank than you. It doesn’t matter what she looks like, or what her options truly are outside the relationship, if you bow and scrape and bring mistress pretty things, you’re framing her as being in charge and having a higher Sex Rank than you. Constantly failing Fitness Tests makes her think she has a higher Sex Rank than you. Her cutting sex down to the rate of an IV drip and you sticking around and tolerating it, makes her think she has a higher Sex Rank than you. If she sits at home in a fifthy house trolling Facebook all day while you bring home the bacon and take her on expensive vacations, you’re framing her as having a higher Sex Rank than you. It’s like you’re purposely propelling her to Phase Three of the MAP without her needing to do anything. Just looking at her in a gooey-eyed Oneitis haze lets her know she’s in the drivers seat.

She could objectively be a 6 and you objectively an 8, but if you keep acting like her minion, she thinks she’s the 8 tolerating having made a terrible choice for settling for a 6. Seeing you’ve lifted her up to her own Phase Three of the MAP, she can push to a Phase Four at will. Except that you’re rarely going to get an obvious Phase Four demand moment, because that’s something we do consciously in running the MAP seeking the moral high ground. Oh there may be a tepid demand for something, a “maybe counseling”, a total ending of sex or something, but far more likely she’s just going to quietly slip into Phase Five.

When the lines of communication are broken between you and your wife, you aren’t going to get a message that the lines of communication are broken. That’s what the lines of communication being broken means. When she checks out of the marriage, she doesn’t tell you because she checked out of the marriage. That’s what being checked out of the marriage means. You might think it’s all going great, but that’s probably how a pet cow called “Hamburger” thinks too. Don’t get too excited about seeing Christmas.

Once in Phase Five… she starts checking out of the marriage and getting her ducks in a row for an exit. Again in the actual MAP, I’m advising taking the moral high ground and not getting involved with someone else. Doing that just complicates things needlessly and makes a second problem to address. However in the walkaway wife / dirty MAP, invariably she will get involved with someone else during Phase Five. In fact getting involved with another man likely marks the jump from Phase Three into the limbo of Phase Five.

Then it goes one of two ways.

The first way is that on one perfectly normal Tuesday morning, she just leaves you and someone serves you the divorce paperwork. You’re totally stunned of course. She just walked away for no reason whatsoever. Chances of getting her back – slim to none. And that’s a slim slim.

The other way is that before she does that, you catch her cheating. If you catch her, you have about a three day window to make a fairly complete reversal of fortune where you read her the riot act, stop catering to her, establish clear relationship boundaries and cut off the relationship with the other man. This is of course a huge task to do, and only possible with Sith-like focused anger. I’m not saying be violent, I’m saying if you aren’t acting as “in control but livid”, you’re doing it wrong. And trust me, you’ll have anger to spare. If in doubt, kick her out. You can always change your mind later, and if nothing else, you’re gaining some respect points in her eyes for doing so.

Even then, it’s still a long road back to what your marriage should be, and her actually cheating on you vastly changes things beyond her merely being bored and discontent. It’s pretty much the ultimate Fitness Test topped only by getting pregnant to another guy. I’m always hopeful that a couple can bounce back from an affair, but the odds aren’t wonderful. It’s going to be a major revision of how you live together. I must admit to becoming somewhat less hopeful on this front the longer I’ve written MMSL.

Whether she stays or goes though, getting your crap together and figuring out how to stand taller is always going to be in your best interest. And I know it’s extremely hard to hear that you played a role in setting the scene for her leaving or cheating on you. I’m really not trying to kick you when you’re down, I’m trying to show you what you must change in order to have a hope at correcting things with her… or failing that the next woman in your life.

Not forgetting of course, you can always just say “thanks for playing” and call it a day.


----------



## happyman64

TIM,

Don't you dare leave that house.

Did your wife walk out on you after your A.

If you love her you show her. You fight for her.

You fight the OM.

If you have to fight dirty then do it. You out her to your families.

When she blows up tell her you did it because you love her.

The worst she can do is walk out and D you.

You my man have nothing to lose.

*So stop crying, pining and fight, fight, fight for her.*

Show her the new side of you.
HM64


----------



## dymo

TroubledInMI said:


> Someone suggested marriagebuilders. Anyone here actually gotten in person or over the phone counselling from Dr. Harley or kids, or just read the books? I'd like to get several of his books. Are they available for kindle?


They do have a website and forum. Start by looking there?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Sara8

happyman64 said:


> TIM,
> 
> Don't you dare leave that house.
> 
> Did your wife walk out on you after your A.
> 
> If you love her you show her. You fight for her.
> 
> You fight the OM.
> 
> If you have to fight dirty then do it. You out her to your families.
> 
> When she blows up tell her you did it because you love her.
> 
> The worst she can do is walk out and D you.
> 
> You my man have nothing to lose.
> 
> *So stop crying, pining and fight, fight, fight for her.*
> 
> Show her the new side of you.
> HM64


I agree. 

You filed, but you need not leave the house and you shouldn't. She cheated this time. 

She didn't leave when you cheated, if you don't show her the same level of response it may make her think you don't care.

One of the things that really irked me and caused me to file is that my STBEH said if I had a revenge affair he would file. :wtf:

I handed him his walking papers the next day.

Also, my STBEH is the macho type, type t personality and all. I did NOT like the fact that he seemed too calm about losing me. 

He only changed months after I filed, but only after the macho crap failed to work.


----------



## TroubledInMI

I hear you guys with all the MMSL stuff, but I can assure you, I'm the dominant one. I'm not some Jersey Shore-like selfish prick, but my wife is very non-confrontational, very submissive. One of our biggest problems is my over-analytical, debate style of communication that is heavily salted with logic and reason. And that of course doesn't work worth a sh*t with her. She's very sensitive to tone, much more so than the actual words. Have I just described everyone's wife?

Don't get me wrong, I could certainly use some lessons in manning up, and I think I've been getting some.
- I've set the my boundary: don't get on the plane until the A is over. I can forgive her infidelity once it ends, but will initiate D in the meantime.
- That said, D paperwork is filled out and on the table.
- I can't keep her out of the house, but I am not picking her up at the airport, and she can sleep on the couch or guest room or wherever the hell she wants besides the marital bed.
- I will take the advice of staying in the home. I'm not the one
having the affair.
- I'm trying my best to limit my communication with her at this point (though I've been weak in that regard).
- I'm crying and I'm pining, I won't lie, but not to her. Just here because I need to get my game face on before the plane lands.

In the meantime:
- I sprayed some bug spray on OM by getting his boss and his wife involved, and it would *seem* he's dumped WW. I say seem, because I wouldn't necessarily know if they've tried to go more covert.
- I'm not done with him. I've found some of his family members and will be targeting them as well. I'm also looking for his clients, or clients of his employer.
- I'm not done with her. I'm disclosing to more friends. If I detect any contact whatsoever with OM, I will involve our parents and pretty much everyone else. Even if I'm not right for her and have to let her go, he's really, really bad for her and I can't let that troll take advantage of her. I know I get a lot of criticism here for holding that card back, but I'm actually trying to NOT alienate her to the point that she can never come back, or if she wants to, that it would make a successful R impossible.
- And I'm really trying hard to work on that 180. Started His Needs, Her Needs, downloaded some companion books, and have printouts of some local MC shops to put on the table right next to the D paperwork. She can choose her path.

I hope my actions are screaming that I'm in the fight.


----------



## turnera

dymo said:


> They do have a website and forum. Start by looking there?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do NOT post in their forum. It's a dysfunctional, rigid Gestapo-like cesspool and you will be sucked in and never come out.


----------



## turnera

Troubled, sounds like a plan.


----------



## Falene

TIM,

Whether you expose to the parents/families or not, you have totally manned up on this one in ways most men may not have been able to do.

You do what you got to do. You are going to make mistakes, we all do, but I bet they aren't going to be ones any of us anticipated. Such is life.

I have a firm belief that life is what it is. You do your best, you own up to your mistakes, try and do no harm and don't let the door hit you in the arse on the way out. Just take good care of yourself and try to find a balance somewhere in the chaos. Eat. Sleep as much as you can. Take a walk. Whatever it is that calms you and fulfills YOU as an individual.

There is a story of karma in here and it is much more than the obvious tale. Just wow.


----------



## TroubledInMI

Falene said:


> Just take good care of yourself and try to find a balance somewhere in the chaos. Eat. Sleep as much as you can. Take a walk. Whatever it is that calms you and fulfills YOU as an individual.


Yeah, this has been a real problem area for me. I never realized how many minutes are actually in a week (10,080) until I managed to spend most of them awake. And major loss of appetite... at least it's helping that 180.


----------



## Machiavelli

TroubledInMI said:


> I hear you guys with all the MMSL stuff, but I can assure you, I'm the dominant one. I'm not some Jersey Shore-like selfish prick, but my wife is very non-confrontational, very submissive. One of our biggest problems is my over-analytical, debate style of communication that is heavily salted with logic and reason. And that of course doesn't work worth a sh*t with her. She's very sensitive to tone, much more so than the actual words. Have I just described everyone's wife?


If you've actually read MMSL, I'm not sure you understand what you've read. The idea there is to mix the Alpha traits that turn women on with the Beta traits that make them comfortable in the relationship, but not so much Beta that you're a turn-off and kill the LTR attraction. 

Even when you find yourself in an imploding marriage, such as yours, the goal isn't to act like some douche, it's to be cool and aloof, considering your options (namely the millions of women just dying to be with you after your wife is out of the picture). Filing is a good way to project this, but you can't file and back that up with a flaming display of Oneitis.

I don't think she's coming back to the relationship, but if you start trying to be a supplicant to woo her back and get her to talk relationship and read relationship books with you, you're really doomed. This is all counter-intuitive.


----------



## Falene

Nothing works like being betrayed to drop the pounds. I have lost over 20 pounds since my DDay in 12/2011. Oh joy. 

Sleep still sucks. Oh joy x 2. lol

The good part though is that my husband and I are still committed to the R and working it the best we can. Communication is better and I am not so angry anymore. If I could just dump the "utterly devastated" part I would be doing much better!


----------



## Will_Kane

TroubledInMI said:


> I hear you guys with all the MMSL stuff, but I can assure you, I'm the dominant one. I'm not some Jersey Shore-like selfish prick, but my wife is very non-confrontational, very submissive. One of our biggest problems is my over-analytical, debate style of communication that is heavily salted with logic and reason. And that of course doesn't work worth a sh*t with her. She's very sensitive to tone, much more so than the actual words. Have I just described everyone's wife?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I could certainly use some lessons in manning up, and I think I've been getting some.
> - I've set the my boundary: don't get on the plane until the A is over. I can forgive her infidelity once it ends, but will initiate D in the meantime.
> - That said, D paperwork is filled out and on the table.
> - I can't keep her out of the house, but I am not picking her up at the airport, and she can sleep on the couch or guest room or wherever the hell she wants besides the marital bed.
> - I will take the advice of staying in the home. I'm not the one
> having the affair.
> - I'm trying my best to limit my communication with her at this point (though I've been weak in that regard).
> - I'm crying and I'm pining, I won't lie, but not to her. Just here because I need to get my game face on before the plane lands.
> 
> In the meantime:
> - I sprayed some bug spray on OM by getting his boss and his wife involved, and *it would *seem* he's dumped WW*. I say seem, because I wouldn't necessarily know if they've tried to go more covert.
> - I'm not done with him. I've found some of his family members and will be targeting them as well. I'm also looking for his clients, or clients of his employer.
> - I'm not done with her. I'm disclosing to more friends. If I detect any contact whatsoever with OM, I will involve our parents and pretty much everyone else. Even if I'm not right for her and have to let her go, he's really, really bad for her and I can't let that troll take advantage of her. I know I get a lot of criticism here for holding that card back, but I'm actually trying to NOT alienate her to the point that she can never come back, or if she wants to, that it would make a successful R impossible.
> - And I'm really trying hard to work on that 180. Started His Needs, Her Needs, downloaded some companion books, and have printouts of some local MC shops to put on the table right next to the D paperwork. She can choose her path.
> 
> I hope my actions are screaming that I'm in the fight.


I read your wife's earlier text to mean that OM dumped her, but she still isn't coming back to you. That is good news.

There were several things that had to happen for your wife to return to the marriage.The first was for the affair to end. If that has happened, good, step one completed. It could flare back up, but my impression is that your wife is not easily fooled and she is not in the fog. OM dumping her combined with what you told her you learned from OMW about OM should open her eyes to him. 

If the affair is ended, the next step is to get her to return to the marriage. Limiting communication is good, don't get muddled in detailed arguments about the past and who said what to whom and who did what to whom and what brought you to this current situation. However, Do not be afraid to let her know that:

1. You love her;
2. Everything you've done, you've done to fight for her and fight for your marriage;
3. Even though you love her, you have too much dignity and self-respect to allow yourself to be her backup plan;
4. You are willing to work on the marriage, but only if she ceases all contact with the other man now and forever.
5. Unless you have her assurance that she has ended the affair and will have no further contact with the other man, you are filing for divorce.

Try to be confident and calm. If you can't do it without breaking down, write it down on a piece of paper and hand it to her.

Stay strong. Rome wasn't built in a day.

As far as your plan goes, I think it is good. If she tells you all contact with other man has ceased, you might want to wait a week before blowing up the affair to more of your/her family/friends and just stick to blowing up the other man's world. Save exposure to her/your family/friends for if she remains in contact with other man or reinitiates contact with other man.


----------



## warlock07

> I read your wife's earlier text to mean that OM dumped her, but she still isn't coming back to you. That is good news.


Or she just want to save face after the OM dumped her so easily. She already vilified OP in her mind already. So she will justify to stay single


----------



## happyman64

Good Points Will.

Now Tim. Time to show some silence.

Time to show patience.

Time to how strength.

And if you need to cry, whine or ***** o it here to us. Not to her.

Good Luck tonight.

And remember above everything else, kick some ass!!!


----------



## dymo

turnera said:


> Do NOT post in their forum. It's a dysfunctional, rigid Gestapo-like cesspool and you will be sucked in and never come out.


I agree with you on what you said to an extent, but it can't hurt to get alternate perspectives. If the advice is not applicable, he can leave.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

dymo said:


> I agree with you on what you said to an extent, but it can't hurt to get alternate perspectives. If the advice is not applicable, he can leave.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 If he wants another perspective, he should go to marriageadvocates.com. The people from marriagebuilders who were NOT part of the problem defected and went there. The advice there is just as good as here. (no offense, TAM!)


----------



## turnera

dymo said:


> I agree with you on what you said to an extent, but it can't hurt to get alternate perspectives. If the advice is not applicable, he can leave.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It truly isn't that easy there. You literally HAVE to go along with their advice or you get lambasted and if you dare speak out against it or question it, you get banned permanently. OH, and any posts you made questioning their doctrine disappear. Whole threads, even. And there's a 'special' group of people who meet up in private to discuss the posters and decide who to get rid of. And they then follow those posters from thread to thread, ready to discredit them or remove posts. I kid you not.


----------



## TroubledInMI

Update: She didn't come home. She got on the plane, came all the way here, got a ride from mutual friends of ours which I've disclosed this to. But she asked them if she could stay at their house last night. At least I have them to work on her from that angle, but to be honest, they're more of the "you guys should just sit down and talk" kind of people, eternal optimists, and clearly WW is so deep in the fog that that won't work. Not sure what good this will do, but can't hurt.

WW did text me late last night and said she would call today. So far, she hasn't called, but has managed to check in looking for a sign from OM. After not checking in for 2 days, I figure they had gone underground. Maybe that's a good sign that he's gone. Or maybe it's just deception. Either way, fog. Deep fog.

What perplexes me is why she got on the plane. She has friends she could have stayed with, or changed her flight to go anywhere she wanted. Why make the effort to come all the way here, only to then not come home? If she's still in fantasy land with OM, hoping he'll poke his head up and giver her a sign, why not stay put where she was so she can carry on out in the open without me or anyone else watching? Instead, she comes home, stays with friends here who are not supportive of her affair, and yet no attempts to communicate. I'm perplexed, but oddly don't feel like I care that much.

It may be a lack of sleep, but my mood is shifting from being in agony, to becoming contemptuous and maybe even a little mad. I still haven't processed the affair and don't even want to yet. I'm mad because she can't even use the word affair, because she can't see that ending it (or not) is the first decision she must address, because she insists it's irrelevant to the subject of us. I feel contemptuous of her because rather than show even a glimmer of sorry, let alone regret or remorse, just plain ol' being sorry, she instead pretends the A is irrelevant and keeps crawling in a hole, leaving me in limbo.

She's shut down, and rather than feeling sorry for her, I feel my love dying. From everything I've read, getting her out of the fog can take quite some time, months even. I'm starting to doubt if there will be enough love left for her by the time she sobers up.

So I got a haircut today. And I joined a gym. And I traded in one of our cars. Tomorrow, I'm going shopping for some new threads, and plan to meet some friends for drinks. My door is still open. But I have to move on like she's not coming back, because it's starting to sink in that she's probably not. I need to be in a good place by the time that decision becomes final. Besides, now's the time to get her to pay for half of the new car...


----------



## turnera

Good. You WANT to be mad. IME, the ONLY men who have gotten their marriages back - literally the ONLY ones - were those who got mad at their wives' behaviour and made it very plain.

Good job moving forward. Remind me, again, does everyone know she's cheating?


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## Shaggy

She's being a coward.

She came home because she doesn't have any place else really to go home to, but she's being a total coward and not facing you.

Do not chase her to see you, your plan to focus on you right now is a good one. Chasing her when he won't choose to stop cheating surrenders the initiative.


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## turnera

Just have the divorce papers and the counseling papers wrapped up in an envelope. If you don't see her for a month or so, mail them to her.


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## happyman64

TIM

Stay mad. Work on you. Go out, fix yourself up and have fun with your friends. Try. Try Hard.

Fake it till you make it.

And have fun with the new car. I bought a new car when I ditched the cheating fiancee. A bright red Porsche 944 Turbo.

When she tried to weasel her way back in and she got frustrated with me she yelled at me "You love this goddamn car more than me!!!" 

My response because I will never forget it "You are damn right I do, this car does not cheat on me and only comes home with me every night!!"

I pulled over, threw her out in her driveway and drove away.

God that was a great day in my life.

Get mad and stay mad.

And yes, your wife is a coward. bummer for her that you are not!!!

Go kick some butt!!!

HM64


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## Will_Kane

TroubledInMI said:


> Update: She didn't come home. She got on the plane, came all the way here, got a ride from mutual friends of ours which I've disclosed this to. But she asked them if she could stay at their house last night. At least I have them to work on her from that angle, but to be honest, they're more of the "you guys should just sit down and talk" kind of people, eternal optimists, and clearly WW is so deep in the fog that that won't work. Not sure what good this will do, but can't hurt.
> 
> WW did text me late last night and said she would call today. So far, she hasn't called, but *has managed to check in looking for a sign from OM. After not checking in for 2 days, I figure they had gone underground. Maybe that's a good sign that he's gone*. Or maybe it's just deception. Either way, fog. Deep fog.
> 
> What perplexes me is why she got on the plane. She has friends she could have stayed with, or changed her flight to go anywhere she wanted. Why make the effort to come all the way here, only to then not come home? If she's still in fantasy land with OM, *hoping he'll poke his head up and giver her a sign*, why not stay put where she was so she can carry on out in the open without me or anyone else watching? Instead, she comes home, stays with friends here who are not supportive of her affair, and yet no attempts to communicate. I'm perplexed, but oddly don't feel like I care that much.
> 
> It may be a lack of sleep, but *my mood is shifting *from being in agony, to becoming contemptuous and maybe even a little mad. I still haven't processed the affair and don't even want to yet. I'm mad because she can't even use the word affair, because she can't see that ending it (or not) is the first decision she must address, because she insists it's irrelevant to the subject of us. I feel contemptuous of her because rather than show even a glimmer of sorry, let alone regret or remorse, just plain ol' being sorry, she instead pretends the A is irrelevant and keeps crawling in a hole, leaving me in limbo.
> 
> She's shut down, and rather than feeling sorry for her, *I feel my love dying*. From everything I've read, getting her out of the fog can take quite some time, months even. *I'm starting to doubt if there will be enough love left for her by the time she sobers up*.
> 
> So I got a haircut today. And I joined a gym. And I traded in one of our cars. Tomorrow, I'm going shopping for some new threads, and plan to meet some friends for drinks. My door is still open. But I have to move on like she's not coming back, because it's starting to sink in that she's probably not. I need to be in a good place by the time that decision becomes final. Besides, now's the time to get her to pay for half of the new car...


As far as the affair goes, it seems that other man is done with her. Most women are in the affair for the emotional aspect, most men for sex, and it looks like that might be the case with this guy. It seems he dumped your wife. I think it was your aggressiveness with his job that probably scared him off. Expose to his family and friends, too.

Right now, she is grieving the loss of her relationship with the other man. She had built him up into quite a fantasy and she just can't believe he would dump her like this. She is not ready to give up the fantasy that easily. She is waiting for his call to tell her he still loves her and plans to dump his wife for her. She will wait for about a week, then realize the call isn't going to come. She may start to feel you out about returning to work on the marriage at that point. These feelings don't end overnight.

You experienced infidelity from the cheating husband's point of view. For you, it was sex. For your wife, it was emotional.

Your feelings of anger and indifference are completely normal. The longer she waits to come back to you, the less angry and more indifferent you will become. The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.


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## Will_Kane

warlock07 said:


> Or she just want to save face after the OM dumped her so easily. She already vilified OP in her mind already. So she will justify to stay single


This is a distinct possibility. You did cheat on her. Who knows what she built up in her mind about you to justify her affair? She may use her villifications of you that she used to rationalize the affair to now justify staying single.


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## Machiavelli

Will_Kane said:


> ...Most women are in the affair for the emotional aspect, most men for sex...You experienced infidelity from the cheating husband's point of view. For you, it was sex. For your wife, it was emotional.


Funny thing. The women on Cool's say something different.


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## turnera

Fringe behavior.


----------



## the guy

Sometimes you just have to "let them go".

Its a proven tactic, what sucks is the reality is many betrayed actually let them go and the love is lost.

Granted with strength, the perception on letting them go and acting with indifference helps, it tends to be a reality that is hard to come back from.

I mean the wayward really has to believe that you are gone, a consequence that....for the 1st time gets them to think twice about their choices, and that betrayed is moving on.

In my case it was this confidence in being able to let my WW go that made her turn a corner. I couldn't control her but I could control what I would tolorate and ......what I wouldn't tolorate, and that was no longeer sharing my wife.

It really is a tough love appraoch that shows your WW there consequences and just getting her to second guess her dicisions.

Its hard as hell and when I was going thru this crap I was scared, but I took the risk. With confidence i was going to just let her go!


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## Chaparral

Machiavelli said:


> Funny thing. The women on Cool's say something different.


Well, there's plenty to go around. Millions because of the emotional aspect and millions just out to get laid. Supposedly, only 20% of affairs are ever discovered. I'm guessing that most of those are one night stands just for sex. But then again, I don't know if ONS are even considered in the stats.


----------



## the guy

ONS are no way statistical, 
In my case my chick counted it just cuz she went home with *them*.

My point is you can't count something your not sure happened.


In one case my fWW got taken home by some POS with a perced penis and couldn't do the deed.

And there was one OM that didn't sleep with covers on the bed so she walked back to her car.

My point is if any one did a study on my old lady with regards discovery, to it would be inconclusive....LOL 

oh ya, this one guy.............never mind , you get the point. my chick isn't the only sex kitten out there screwing over their husband.....


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## Machiavelli

turnera said:


> Fringe behavior.


I don't think so, based on my personal experiences. I think the "emotional needs" thing is mere hamsterism.

ETA: actually, just posting on Cool's is probably fringe behavior.


----------



## TroubledInMI

Update: I guess I had yet another moment of weakness. I called WW and said that I was stopping by, picking her up, and taking her to dinner. I didn't want to talk about any of this stuff. She was staying with my friend, who barely lives there between work and his new GF, so I knew he didn't have any food in the house that wasn't around from the last election. She hesitated, but finally agreed. I dressed up nice, showed up, she was still getting some last minute work done. I waited and made small talk until she was ready. She had not brought any other clothes with her when she flew home. No suitcase, nothing. So we went out as is.

We had a very pleasant dinner, wine, dessert, talked about work, small talk, and she was very chatty. I thought it went exceedingly well and, quite honestly, cheating wife or not, it was nice just to get out of the house and eat because it's been a week living on coffee for me. She actually seemed to light up. I smiled a lot, though the whole time I had mind movies playing and a deep suspicion that she had gone underground with her lover. After dinner, I drove her back to my friend's house, walked her in, thanked her and said maybe we could do it again.

I wanted her to see what courage looked like. Courage being a man who deeply loved her enough to set aside all this misery long enough to simply enjoy an evening out with no strings. When I got home, I had to "check in" for any latest developments, and the news was not good. And I have to say it crushed me. WW and OM had indeed taken their business underground. New email accounts, new cell phones, plans to meet him in Houston in a week. While she had not committed to Houston yet, she had booked a one-way return ticket back to her work city. Of course she had come home with no belongings. This trip home was intended to be a short stop off to break it to me once and for all.


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## Acabado

Sorry man, she's gone. Let her go.


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## TroubledInMI

I got the maddest I've been since finding out. I had two stacks of papers on the table, hoping to present them to her when she came home (which she didn't). One was the initial divorce property settlement draft, the other a stack containing links to this site and many others, as well as every counselor in the local area. I grabbed the divorce papers and drove back over, alternately dialing OM and her to see who I'd get first. No answer from either, but a text from OM. I'd never called or communicated directly with him. His text basically said that there was nothing to be said from him or me, that it was over and for me to accept it and move on. I got the friend's house, rang the bell until she woke up and let me in.

I handed her the divorce papers, and then we commenced to sitting there at the kitchen table until nearly 6 am. So much was said, I can't remember it all. At times I thought I saw rays of hope, and at others I saw desperation in her eyes where she seemed committed to ending the marriage whether or not she continued the affair. She seemed to acknowledge that there were now serious questions regarding OM's character, but she still wasn't sure there was a future with us. She did seem to be very concerned about me and my emotional stability. I asked why she had come all this way and not come to the house, and she was "afraid for her safety". WTF? I have never been a violent man and I immediately accused her of throwing something like that out to lay the groundwork for screwing me over. What should I expect next, a restraining order, some attempt to remove from the house, some shark lawyer trying to clean me out? Was there a script? She says no to any of that. What was worrying her, and him, was they thought I had somehow hacked computer systems to email everyone at his work, and she was worried I was doing things that would end with one or both us in jail. ? I send a f*cking email. I told her his company had a website, for crying out loud, with contact addresses all over it. I emailed those. OM I guess also painted a picture of me threatening and harassing his family. My WW was worried I had gone around the bend, and wasn't sure what I might be capable of. WTF? I emailed his boss. Yes. And I called OM's wife to let her know that her POS husband was at it again. Is it crazy to shine a light on an affair like that? If anything, I've had the kid gloves on. *I'm* around the bend? How about her being so far around the bend that she can't even use the word affair, won't break it off, but won't file for divorce either. Hell, she can't even make it over to the house to tell me.

I called her a coward for not having the courage to make a single decision. The only thing she's managed to do is enter an affair. And that's it. She's been unable to take any action in either relationship, affair or marriage, and is becoming a cruel, heartless person. She's such a coward, in fact, that she's continuing to do this out in the open so that *I* will make the decision for her and file.


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## Acabado

Does OM's wife knows about their plans, the whole undergound thing?


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## TroubledInMI

We talked, like I said, until the sun came up. We talked about all the crap that went wrong, we talked about her affair and she finally at least used the word. Turns out, back in May when things sort of fell apart and she went to FL to spend a week with her parent, and when we had decided to give it some time to work out, turns out she met that POS on the plane ride back from FL. So, this has been over for a long time. She met him at her most vulnerable, and despite her saying we were taking another chance to really work on the marriage this time (something I really thought we were doing this summer), I really never had a chance.

I had nothing to lose, so I laid out my case. I asked her if she wanted me to fight for her. Would it make a difference? Would it drive her away all the quicker, or would it show her my commitment? Of course, the coward could not answer. I told her I would fight for her, because that's what I signed up to do 10 years ago. Yes, I sent an email to company with the veiled threat of lawsuits. Yes, I sent emails and called his wife. I could do more. While I'm certain I couldn't win, I could sue him for causing emotional distress. Our financial resources are considerably greater than his, and I could make him spend a lot of money to make me go away. I could find every business associate, friend, family member, and simply disclose the facts that I know. Nothing about this is illegal, or insane. Desperate, perhaps, but not crazy. I could tell EVERYONE we know, friends, family, coworkers, and we could all be shamed. Me, for what I've done, and her, for what she's doing. I could spend every dime we have pushing him out. I was also willing to quit my job if I have to just to follow her to whatever city she's working in so we could be together to work on our marriage, and we'd have no excuse to attend intensive therapy sessions. She has two mean declaring their love for her. I'm willing to shout it from the rooftops, spend every dime to defend it, and take every measure to prove it. What's he willing to do? What's she willing to do? Why do *I* have to be the one to make the decision and actually file?

So for the first time, she finally said it. She wants a divorce. Doesn't want me to fight for her. She wants to be with him. So I left, came home, sent OM an email ceding victory, and cc's WW, OM's wife and all our friends. This is a sad day.

Thanks to everyone on this board for all the support and advice. And I know I f'd up in a million ways, some starting years ago, and I know I've let my emotions get the best of me and I've done too much beta, not enough alpha, whatever. I've clearly lost to another man who's had 22 years ofhis own sh*tty marriage to perfect his game. I hope you folks will allow me hang out here, likely in other threads, while I work through to process the death of my marriage.


----------



## Shaggy

You should speak to the friend that is letting your wife live there. he is enabling the affair by giving her a nice safe place to hang out.

Get the sep agreement in place ASAP - she's travelling and spending money to finance the affair. That's going to add up fast. You want to make the sep legal so that all debts run up by her are her's alone and not joint.

She's decided to be the other woman with a man who won't leave his marriage. she's choosing a world of hurt for herself.

Time to go completely and totally dark. Oh, and change the locks on the house. You can always appolgize later.


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## Will_Kane

I'm sorry things have turned out this way.

She still is on the fence. At least she knows she always can come back to you if it doesn't work out with him.

In the meantime, take Shaggy's advice. She is in for a world of hurt with this one.

As far as any stories she told you about how they met or how it progressed, take them with a grain of salt. For all you know, they could have met before she even went to Florida and met him there to screw around. Cheaters are liars who always will try to make themselves look as good as possible.


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## Shaggy

If she does go to Huston, I suggest you send the flight details and hotel details to the OMW and tell her she can do what she wants with the knowledge.


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## OldWolf57

You're better off. If not now then later this would have happened. Still go after his butt. Make it VERY expensive for him to have his cake.
Also let his wife know he is spending marital assets to conduct this affair.

You've layed it out there, and she has played you to get her get even before leaving.

Its SHARK time now, "No More Mr. Nice Guy ", READ it LIVE it. 
Completely dark !!!

If she wants to talk, let her know your lawyer's ##.

You may look vindictive, but you are showing you are not someone that will be walked on, like you don't matter anymore.
When she came home to work on it, but was already starting the affair, she was being cruel and deceitful. She never gave the marriage another chance.
She endured the lost friendships and all to get even in a passive/aggressive cowardly way.


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## dymo

Time to disengage. Some are suggesting you lodge a few more salvos at the affair. Don't. You've done your part. You said you wouldn't fight for her, now be good to your word.

There may be a time when reality hits, and she'll make moves like she wants you back. Be very cautious if that happens.

More likely though, your marriage is over. Time to move on.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## OldWolf57

Going back over the 1st few posts, I can see she was long gone way before the A.
But like you said, too much of a coward to pull the plug.

" Just Let Them Go ", read it and move on.
You being a successful man in his 40s have a much better future outlook then her.
True, there are no kids to run a guy off, but lets be serious, at her age guy will hit it and go. So being alone at holidays as some mans ow is her future.

Dark and nasty is my method.


----------



## OldWolf57

dymo said:


> Time to disengage. Some are suggesting you lodge a few more salvos at the affair. Don't. You've done your part. You said you wouldn't fight for her, now be good to your word.
> 
> There may be a time when reality hits, and she'll make moves like she wants you back. Be very cautious if that happens.
> 
> More likely though, your marriage is over. Time to move on.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Its not fighting for her. Its about respect. Its about a POS moving in on a married woman. Its about making the POS life a living hell.
She was gone when she had the breakdown, POS moved in with words of " oh we in the same boat ", but his wife say he has done it before. Bet he said the same to his other ap's.
So why is he not with one of them??
He's a player, thats why.
My remedy is very simple, he needs a ride in the EMT wagon.
NO, I don't recommend he do it. Everyone is not me, but thats just me.


----------



## dymo

OldWolf57 said:


> Its not fighting for her. Its about respect. Its about a POS moving in on a married woman. Its about making the POS life a living hell.
> She was gone when she had the breakdown, POS moved in with words of " oh we in the same boat ", but his wife say he has done it before. Bet he said the same to his other ap's.
> So why is he not with one of them??
> He's a player, thats why.
> My remedy is very simple, he needs a ride in the EMT wagon.
> NO, I don't recommend he do it. Everyone is not me, but thats just me.


I don't recommend he do it either. He's no longer worth the energy. 

Left to their own devices, cheaters tend to end up punishing each other. The easiest way to make their lives hell is to leave them with the mess they created.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## walkonmars

Unlike WW you can hold your head high. You gave it your very best shot. No shame in that - you have a lot of life left so make the most of it. Take a bit of time to grieve appropriately - renew your outlook on life and renew your body.

This is a low point in your life, perhaps the lowest. Nowhere to go but up so chin up. Make new friends, join big brothers, or some other community type of work - volunteer to tutor or act as a mentor at a neighborhood school. You'll put this in the rear view before long.


----------



## OldWolf57

If you come into my house to do me wrong, then you have disrespected me. I don't care if you was invited, you came to DIS me. 
Corrections must be made to address the disrespect.


----------



## Acabado

Sorry man, you did try your best. IMHO you did great. Time to let her go.
Detach, put the D ball running, don't reach her more.
Grieve the marriage on your own. There will be a light at the end.


----------



## Acabado

It's a shame. She will regret this choice because MOM sooner or later won't change ever. But that was her choice.


----------



## turnera

Will_Kane said:


> At least she knows she always can come back to you if it doesn't work out with him.


Right. So why SHOULD she come back? You've made it exceedingly clear that you're going to sit around and wait for her to get her rocks off and THEN she can come home. Cos you'll still be there waiting for her.

meh


----------



## In_The_Wind

Time to go nuclear exposure in the mean time work on yr self start working out and go dark
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Add him to cheaterville.com


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## happyman64

You know What I am sorry for TIM?

I am sorry that you are now feeling the pain that you caused your wife with your Affair.

I am sorry that you are just a year or two ahead of where she will be right where you are now.

I am sorry that you realized just how much your wife means to you.

I am sorry that your wife did not learn from your mistakes and turn out to be a better person in your marriage.

In my eyes, when a victim of infidelity becomes a perpetrator of infidelity, that makes a bad person. But that is in my mind.

You should let the OMW Know of their decision to continue the Affair.

But for now let her go, she needs to learn a very valuable lesson, one that you have already learned, the one you are now paying for with your marriage.

You have my respect for the honesty and fight you have shown now let ger go.

She needs to be used and abused.

You can no longer protect her or save her from herself.....

HM64


----------



## TroubledInMI

I can't say where I'll be emotionally tomorrow, but right now, I'm out of fight. I've done everything wrong, if not now, then in the past, and I'm reaping the rewards of my labor. Every minute she sat on the fence killed off my love and respect, and I'm left now with only sorrow and pity. The advice on here is overwhelming correct. Time to be done, so I can move on.

I emailed her a draft settlement agreement I built using an online tool. I feel it still needs review by the attorney on Monday to dot all the i's and such, but it's what I intend to file. I don't want to drag things out any longer or spend a bunch of money with a bunch of lawyers arguing over who gets the spoons. I basically want her to pack up whatever she wants to keep in a truck, let me write her a check, and her leave. I did ask her to consider postponing her one-way out of town flight for a day so we could meet with the attorney together, revise the settlement as necessary before filing. But it's not a requirement.


----------



## TroubledInMI

happyman64 said:


> I am sorry that you are now feeling the pain that you caused your wife with your Affair.
> 
> I am sorry that you are just a year or two ahead of where she will be right where you are now.
> 
> I am sorry that you realized just how much your wife means to you.
> 
> I am sorry that your wife did not learn from your mistakes and turn out to be a better person in your marriage.
> HM64


Me too


----------



## Jonesey

OldWolf57 said:


> If you come into my house to do me wrong, then you have disrespected me. I don't care if you was invited, you came to DIS me.
> Corrections must be made to address the disrespect.


Amen to that


----------



## Chaparral

At least get it together to put him on cheaterville.com. You may save several marriages from the scum that stole your wife. Send the annonymous message to his boss.


----------



## Petyot

Will_Kane said:


> The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.


I like that very much. Even if it means that I am still in love with my WW...


----------



## Petyot

TroubledInMI said:


> Every minute she sat on the fence killed off my love and respect, and I'm left now with only sorrow and pity. The advice on here is overwhelming correct. Time to be done, so I can move on.


I am on the same boat (even if each story is different) as you and I know exactly what you are feeling.

I am sorry for you. Stay strong.


----------



## happyman64

TIM
I like the idea of the draft. 

She should at least stay the day, go to the attorneys and hammer out the D.

Give her what she wants.

A one way ticket to paradise. 

Then focus on your healing.

I have already called the Karma bus to pick her up a few months from now.


----------



## turnera

Shaggy said:


> If she does go to Huston, I suggest you send the flight details and hotel details to the OMW and tell her she can do what she wants with the knowledge.


 If she does come here, you can send me the details and I can arrange a rude awakening for them!


----------



## Falene

TIM,

I am sorry about the outcome of all of this. Please take good care of yourself. There is something you need to know and truly believe in...this too shall pass. Your happy future is out there somewhere waiting for you to find it.


----------



## Goldmember357

not worthy of true love of your wife or marriage. Just leave save her the trouble of having to deal with your actions that hurt her.


----------



## ladybird

This is what you call a revenge affair. Don't get mad get even type of thing.


----------



## TroubledInMI

It's been a few days since I posted, and while a number of "events" have occurred, I can't say anything has really changed.

To start with, she did postpone her flight, a whole week. After our "all nighter" discussion a week ago Friday, I drove home, sent a "you win" email to a$$hole OM, cc'ing her, his boss and our friends, and sent her note saying she might want to think about what to say to family. She then, *apparently*, made a phone call to OM, spoke about 20 minutes, and broke it off. I say "apparently", because of course there's no way to confirm it. She then called her parents, broke the news to them, admitted to an affair, which blew them away.

Her parents both emailed me, offering huge amounts of support and condolences. Of course, she's basically shut them out since that phone call so there's not much they can really do. I was genuinely surprised she brought her parents into this on her own like that.

We met in person for dinner at our house, and she was interested in coming to stay at the house and work remotely this week, while we worked out details of the property settlement. I laid out the same conditions as before: A has to be over, and be able to prove it, and I want access to the new cell and email account. She said ok. She had left her new cell phone and laptop at our friend's house where she had been staying. I thought she had planned to stay the night at our house, but in fact hadn't (another miscommunication). She wanted to go back, and I said something about sure, so you can clean up your email and phone before I get to see them. Naturally, she flew off the handle and got very pissy, but ultimately agreed to stay in the guest room and let me have those items the next day.

We went over to the friend's house the next day, and she actually let me get to the phone before she had time to clean it up. I also got to the email account. What I *didn't* find bugged me more than what I *did* find. I did find the 20 minute call to OM Saturday morning. I did find a string of texts back and forth starting from when she got the phone right up until our all nighter. I did find a string of emails right up until she left for the airport. What I *didn't* find was one single contact *after* the phone call from OM, asking her to reconsider, or "give them a chance", "stick it out", "stay strong", or any of the other b.s. he had been spewing. Seriously, this guy is "in love" with her, has told her so many times, and not *one* attempt to talk her out of breaking up with him?

Always go with your gut. There *was* a 20-minute phone call, but it was about going dark. I convey this to her, and let her stew on it Sunday. I should have left her at our friend's, but I let her come home to the guest room. I've been monitoring both cells and both emails "that I know about", all week, and still not a single contact. Fishy.

Meanwhile, I've been trying my best to do a 180. I love this woman so I can't help holding out hope every time I catch a glimpse of her former self. One day I noticed she kept locking her work laptop every time she got up from the table. So I asked her if I could see it. She got defensive. What else could I find that I didn't already know? True. So there should be no reason. I was calm. I said she should pack up some clothes for a few weeks and get out, come back later once she's found a place to stay and bring a truck. She freaked out, unlocked her laptop, shoved it at me, grabbed some car keys and drove off. I didn't find anything I didn't already know, except for a few early emails that suggest *she* was the initiator, the chaser. I went to the attorney's office, got a consult (since I hadn't done that yet), got all the forms and brought them home. She was here when I got here, and I calmly sat in the kitchen and started filling them out.

I did have to engage her on things like "do you want your maiden name back", etc. So we sat down in the kitchen and went through property deeds and bank account balances like we were buying a house together or something. I think it might have been a little much for her, as she suggested we take a break, come back to this later. So we did. I probably should have pressed on.


----------



## Shaggy

She ended the affair? She is transparent ? And you're divorcing?

why is she giving into anything if your heading to D?


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## warlock07

you are doing pretty well. Keep your guard up. Don't be scared to separate if you have to. Stop the begging ad pleading.


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## TroubledInMI

As part of my 180, I decided to trade in one of the old cars for a newer one. I didn't ask permission, I just did it. I needed the pick me up, and figured she might as well pay for half of it. I had not been able to pick it up last Friday as planned, and it was ready Wednesday. I told her what I had done, and that I was going to pick it up and have some lunch, and extended an invite. She said ok. We went, got it, shared a bit of that "new car" moment, and went to lunch. We basically blew off work the entire day. Had a great lunch, then a trip to the farmer's market, I bought some flowers, and she reached down and grabbed my hand. We stopped off at a great bar with a waterfront deck, had a few ****tails, and went home. We both agreed it had been a really nice day together, and that we should do more of this. Either she's an evil b*tch, or there was a glimpse of my old wife, and like an idiot, I clung to the latter.

Thursday, we talked about counselling. She works in the same city we used to live in before moving a year ago, and had been seeing a therapist there off and on since we got married. I saw the same counsellor briefly years ago after my A, but to be honest with myself (and I was with WW), I wasn't as opened minded as I should have been, and only went a few times, and we only went once. So, I offered to see this same therapist, and not hold back. My job allows me to work remotely, so no reason I couldn't travel with WW every week, see the same therapist individually while she did the same, and when said therapist felt it was time for us to come in together, we could. She did not resist the idea, though I would have my own hotel room. She did seem hesitant, though, about the idea of joint counselling. So see, all these little flags are still there. The sudden break off without a peep from OM, the flying off the handle about being transparent even after things have been exposed, and reluctance to seeing someone together. The evil b*tch scenario becomes more likely every day.

Nevertheless, we made flight arrangements, hotel arrangements, and therapy appointments. Talked about reading "His Needs, Her Needs" together. I had already started it, and immediately identified with everything being said, shared some of that. In my mind, I felt like we had this enormous opportunity to learn from each other and build something we never had, even in the beginning. In her mind, she made her decision a while back, went out and found someone to help her pull the trigger, and isn't looking back.

So last night, I took her out, we had a very nice evening, but I could sense something in her. I think it might have been guilt. I'm 100% convinced the A is not over, and that now she's starting to catch a glimpse of reality, both in seeing the OM for what he is, and seeing me for who I am, and I honestly think she feels like she's betraying HIM by allowing herself to have a good time with me, and talk about things like counselling.


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## TroubledInMI

So we come home, light up a fire pit, and pour some homemade beers that happened to have turned out fantastic. We're sitting by the fire, and I told her what I thought. Honestly, that the A was not over, and that she's starting to see that her marriage isn't as bad as she thought, and she's tearing herself up with guilt. She denied all of that, of course, and repeated that the A was over. So, I asked about writing a NC letter. She asked why, especially since we're proceeding with a divorce? I said that answered that. If it's over, writing a NC would prove it, at least to me, and certainly wouldn't cause any harm to the other relationship if it were, indeed over. Long story short, she won't write one. So that's that.

I asked to stop f-ing around and be honest for once, if she could even remember how. Was she in love with this guy? She says no. Is it really over, or just post-poned. Basically, she "says" she doesn't want to be him while either of them is married, but once that's no longer the case, if he's still around and she's still around, she'd like the option. So what is that? It's over, but I'm not giving him up because we're getting divorce and hopefully he is too and when that's done we can be together blah blah blah. What is she, 15?

I hate to admit it, but her actions of turning over the phone, the email, calling her parents, letting me book a flight with her, etc., those things DID make me grab onto a thread of hope. I shouldn't have, but the flesh is weaker than any of us would like to admit. Worst case, the A is still going strong, she's using yet a different email or other method, or "taking a break" for a week or two, and all of this has been nothing more than a charade to get me off the exposure track. Best case, the A is over but she's emotionally tied to him so strongly that she can't get off D train long enough to enjoy a moment of rationality.

My gut has NOT been wrong yet throughout this ordeal. And my gut says it's time to log off, go in the kitchen and finish the D paperwork, ask her to pack up a few weeks worth of clothes, and find other lodgings. It also tells me that maybe I should continue to harass the crap out of OM, and bring everyone else we know up to speed, while simultaneously keeping our travel arrangements and therapist appointments. Let's see how comfortable OM is with his wife getting weekly status reports. Let's see how comfortable WW is with me sitting next to her on a plane every week, staying at the same hotel, going to the same therapist. Is she really going to sneak out for a tryst with me next door? Maybe. And maybe that's the kind of kick in the balls I need to do what so many others on here have been advising me to do.

Oh, and speaking of OMW, I'm not sure how useful she is going to be. I'm convinced a$$hole has intercepted her phone and email, and cut her off. I did get a "threatening" email from him saying he was contacting the police about my "threats and harassment". Odd, no one's knocked on my door...


----------



## Shaggy

Yes, keep up the pressure on the OM though his wife.

Continue to listen to your gut.


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## happyman64

:iagree:

Shaggy is 100% correct but also keep the pressure up on your wife as you continue with the D.

Stop looking for shreds of hope. You need to decimate her.

She still feels entitled and is actually sitting on the fence. 

But continue forward just the way you are.

Show her how strong you are and no matter what happens you will be better off in the end.

HM64


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## TroubledInMI

OM is on cheaterville. It apparently takes 48 hours for it to post, but I sent anonymous links to his work and wife. Sent one to myself, but it says invalid post. Hope it works itself out by Monday.


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## Shaggy

Since she has NC with the OM, it will be interesting to see how your wife reacts or finds out. It might reveal if they have an underground channel.


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## SomedayDig

TroubledInMI said:


> OM is on cheaterville. It apparently takes 48 hours for it to post, but I sent anonymous links to his work and wife. Sent one to myself, but it says invalid post. Hope it works itself out by Monday.


Hmmm...mine was up in less than 30 minutes. Photo and all.

Ooops! Did I just admit that?! 

(it only has 280,000 views though....LMAO)

PS...I sent the anonymous email to the partners in his law firm.

Double Oooopsie :rofl:


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## TroubledInMI

Shaggy said:


> Since she has NC with the OM, it will be interesting to see how your wife reacts or finds out. It might reveal if they have an underground channel.


Well, she *says* she has NC, but ultimately refused to write a letter when I pushed her on it last night. I think that pretty much answers that. Time for her to go.

It's been ridiculously hard for me. Perhaps I'm alpha enough, and maybe this is what I needed to become a better man for a more deserving woman. But each day this deceit prances around in the open, each time she minimizes or outright lies, my love for her dies and gets easier and easier for me to envision life without her.


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## Acabado

She's all over the map. Contradictory actions. Steeming from contradictory thoughts?
At one hand she claims ended it. Assuming she's actually NC she told him until D is final. She already told you so. She doesn't want to burn that bridge by sending a NC letter but OM's past surely makes her doubt about him, she wants to see whether he's serious about divorcing her wife as she's doing on her own. How is she going to know if they have not a comunication avenue?
She difussed your treat of exposing to her parents by doing it on her own.
She sign the papers.

Meanwhile she has "nice" dates with you and wants to have "more in the future"? She agrees to MC¿ W.T.F.

So, the situation is like this: assuming she's not in contact with OM (and it's a huge, unlikely idea) there's a window of oportunity for her to defog. You have to find a balance between self respect and being "loving" and attractive (sorta marriagebuilders Plan A).


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## turnera

Start packing up her stuff (not clothes, but other stuff). Bring home a bunch of boxes and just start boxing. It just happens that it will all be HER stuff. Start with photos.


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## Will_Kane

TroubledInMI said:


> I did find the 20 minute call to OM Saturday morning. I did find a string of texts back and forth starting from when she got the phone right up until our all nighter. I did find a string of emails right up until she left for the airport. *What I *didn't* find was one single contact *after* the phone call from OM, asking her to reconsider, or "give them a chance", "stick it out", "stay strong", or any of the other b.s. he had been spewing. Seriously, this guy is "in love" with her, has told her so many times, and not *one* attempt to talk her out of breaking up with him*?
> 
> *Always go with your gut. There *was* a 20-minute phone call, but it was about going dark*. I convey this to her, and let her stew on it Sunday. I should have left her at our friend's, but I let her come home to the guest room. I've been monitoring both cells and both emails "that I know about", all week, and still not a single contact. Fishy.
> 
> Meanwhile, I've been trying my best to do a 180. I love this woman so I can't help holding out hope every time I catch a glimpse of her former self. One day I noticed she kept locking her work laptop every time she got up from the table. So I asked her if I could see it. She got defensive. What else could I find that I didn't already know? True. So there should be no reason. I was calm. I said she should pack up some clothes for a few weeks and get out, come back later once she's found a place to stay and bring a truck. She freaked out, unlocked her laptop, shoved it at me, grabbed some car keys and drove off. I didn't find anything I didn't already know, except for a few early emails that suggest *she* was the initiator, the chaser.
> 
> I told her what I thought. Honestly, that the A was not over, and that she's starting to see that her marriage isn't as bad as she thought, and she's tearing herself up with guilt. She denied all of that, of course, and repeated that the A was over. So, I asked about writing a NC letter. She asked why, especially since we're proceeding with a divorce? I said that answered that. If it's over, writing a NC would prove it, at least to me, and certainly wouldn't cause any harm to the other relationship if it were, indeed over. Long story short, she won't write one. So that's that.
> 
> I asked to stop f-ing around and be honest for once, if she could even remember how. Was she in love with this guy? She says no. Is it really over, or just post-poned. Basically, *she "says" she doesn't want to be him while either of them is married, but once that's no longer the case, if he's still around and she's still around, she'd like the option*. So what is that? It's over, but I'm not giving him up because we're getting divorce and hopefully he is too and when that's done we can be together blah blah blah.


So, she is giving you transparency (allegedly), and she wants to reconcile with you, but she wants to keep the other man open as an option in case things don't work out with you? If other man got divorced tomorrow, she would drop your reconciliation like a hot potato and run to him?

I agree with your conclusion, the 20-minute call likely was about cooling things off for a little while, or how to take it underground.


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## warlock07

Wow!! She wants to get with a serial cheater after he divorces his wife ? Good luck but I see little hope for the marriage.


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## dymo

Does your wife know he's a serial cheater? How much have you told her?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TroubledInMI

I told her everything OMW told me, nearly verbatim, and even provided OMW's phone number if she wanted to confirm on her own. There were some texts back and forth at that time with her questioning him about "how many women were there before me" kind of thing. He "admitted" to 3. OMW says it was more like 6, and that's just the ones she knew about. So, yeah, serial cheater is an understatement.

Each day, I lose a little hope that there's any chance at all of salvaging this. WW *did* sit down with me and go through His Needs, Her Needs together while we traveled together. It's a great book, and it certainly provided me with a ton of insight and perspective surrounding issues that have plagued our marriage, mutual affairs aside. She also seemed like a number of light bulbs were going off. We both agreed we wished we had read something like this 5 years ago. But I still can't tell. I'm still about 99.9% certain she's simply gone dark with OM. But about 0.1% of the time, I catch glimpses through the fog, and it makes me want to hang in there. I just find it incredibly difficult to overpower my emotions and hold back anxiety attacks, something I've *never* experienced in my life. I feel now know what it's like to live with an alcoholic.

I read a lot of info, on marriagebuilders, affaircare, survivinginfedity, and TAM, and haven't stopped cramming info into my brain. So, what I think I'm trying to do here is the "180", or "Plan A". I had a pretty good idea, on the surface anyway, of what to expect, and so far the script of her actions and behavior have been right on cue. What I had no idea of, though, was how really hard this was going to be on my ego. Plan A'ing a lying, not sorry, no remorse, spouse is way harder than I could ever have imagined. I feel like it would easier if she had done what I did when my A was discovered:fall on your sword, be horrified, guilt-ridden, and most importantly, scared to death of losing your spouse. She's done *none* of that, which makes Plan A extremely hard. I just don't know where the line should be drawn before shifting to Plan B. My heart says give it some time, it's been 2 weeks since I confronted her. Me ego says, kick the b*tch out, like last week already.


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## warlock07

Don't push/force her to R. She has to do it on her own.


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## turnera

Troubled, you're in no hurry. You're considering a change that will affect the rest of your life. Just take it day by day, ok?


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## Acabado

She has to stay NC for a while, to detox. She will get depressed (withdrawal). If she has OM as a possiblity in her head (Just in case) she's in affair mentality.
Monitor NC, then watch.


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## TroubledInMI

I dropped her off at the therapist for IC this morning, and while she was there, I bought some flowers (part of my plan A, I guess). I then dropped her off at work, and she *reluctantly* took the flowers in with her. I'm back at the hotel, pretending to work.

She texted me around lunch, asked how my day was going. I said, ok, and asked about hers. She said about the same, and that she was making an appointment to look at places to live here.

Ok... I guess those weren't glimpses of my old W, after all. She has no interest in reconciling at all, and I think my 99.9% just went to 100%. Or perhaps anonymous emails with the cheaterville link have made their rounds. In response to her text about shopping for places to live, I simply said "ok, need a ride?" She said she'd let me know.

I have an appointment with the same therapist tomorrow, as does she. Question is, do I even bother at this point? I've been trying to "Plan A" her by engaging her in thoughtful conversation, without being nasty or forceful, but just trying to get her to think about what she believes went wrong, and also doing my fair share of acknowledging where I made mistakes. Coming HERE to see THIS therapist was part of the plan of not just admitting I need help as much as she does, but that I actually intended to get it. I know I've talked too much, and "logic'd" too much, etc. And I've probably done the whole Plan A thing all wrong, for all I know. But honestly, if she really wanted out so badly, there's nothing stopping her. We have no kids to complicate things, and divorce laws in our state make it pretty simple to get out. We make the same income, so there's nothing to really fight about financially. Getting out would be a simple matter of sitting down, filling out the paperwork and paying a filing fee. And she knows this. We started this process, and she asked to take a break. So honestly, I can't help but feel like, while she may not be done with OM, she's also not done with me, and wants ME to pull the trigger.

So, time for plan B? If she won't write a NC letter to OM, perhaps it's time for me to write one to her. Do I leave her here and go home today? Do I stick it out the rest of the week as planned, keeping my therapist appointment tomorrow? In fact, the plan was for me to be here again next week for both of us to get more IC. Is there any point in trying to monitor her actions any longer? She's almost certainly gone dark, if not deeper underground, and could be using resources at work to maintain contact for all I know. I'm not sure what I'd do with any information if I did find it.

One thing I did do after our little text exchange at lunch, I emailed her parents. For those who haven't read the whole thread, SHE contacted them and confessed to the A, surely as a damage control measure, when I essentially gave up and saw an attorney. They've been incredibly supportive of me. Unfortunately, she's basically shut them out. She hasn't spoken to them since that one phone call. Anyway, I brought them up to speed, let them know, once again, how much I want to salvage this, and how she apparently doesn't. But, under no uncertain circumstances could I allow this marriage to end without doing everything I could to save it. And I simply can't let her stay in a relationship with that dirt bag without doing everything I can to end it. I gave them OM and OMW's phone numbers, and asked them to call, if they felt they could. Not sure how that's going to play out.


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## sandc

Go home. Do the 180. File. You don't have to go through with the D if she comes around. But if she doesn't come around, you're ready. Sometimes D paperwork has the effect of waking the WS up. Sometimes it just seals the deal. Either way doesn't sound like you have anything to lose.


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## walkonmars

You've done an incredible job of keeping your wits and sanity. Your actions have been measured and logical. You cannot fault any of her current behavior on you. 

I think you have assessed the situation correctly 100% out - but unwilling to pull the plug. You both can remain acquaintances but do not offer to 'be there' when (not if) the OM lets her down.


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## turnera

I wouldn't cancel the appointment. But I would stop Plan Aing her. And tell her WHY. "I won't just hang around til you feel like caring about me. I'm moving on."


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## happyman64

turnera said:


> I wouldn't cancel the appointment. But I would stop Plan Aing her. And tell her WHY. "I won't just hang around til you feel like caring about me. I'm moving on."


So true Turnera.

I do not care how much fog she is in or if she ends up with the loser OM.

I would leave her there and go home.

Tell her you will be getting the paperwork ready and sent to her this week.

And if she asks you why?

Just tell her you have too much respect For yourself to be treated like this and you realize she needs to go out on her own to get used and abused.

And you have no desire to watch the peron you love the most make these mistakes So you are outta here.


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## TroubledInMI

Went to therapist, same one WW has been seeing off and on for years (presumably to deal with issues outside our marriage). Before I went, I discovered WW had been in contact with OM the past two days. I asked her about it, and of course it was "too make sure he was ok". OK? Was he in an accident? Why wouldn't he be ok? Oh, because he went back to his own destroyed family and has had to clean up that mess? What-f'ing-ever. So much for that.

In speaking with the therapist, I've decided she's a terrible therapist. Definitely NOT pro-marriage at all. Rather, if a patient has decided they want a divorce, then she supports divorce. If they don't, then she encourages they fight for it. Can you get more vague? So what about deciding you want a divorce while in the throws of an A? Oh, don't focus on the A, it's simply a symptom of larger problems. Ok, I agree with it being a symptom, but you can't make rational decisions about D or R, whether to fight or give up, while the "symptom" is present.

We talked about my A and how I never dealt with it properly. I agree with that. But my WW never dealt with it either. We BOTH swept it under the rug, only WW has been talking to the therapist about it for the last 3 1/2 years, and not ME. Some therapist. I thought the idea of therapy was to figure out how to DEAL with problems, develop solutions and strategies, not just re-hash them every week, not avoid developing any solutions, not avoid speaking with your spouse about them, not go off and meet someone else, fall into an A of your own, then decide the M is over and have your therapist agree that if you're unhappy then you should get out, but don't "focus" on the A. It's ok for therapist and WW to fixate on my A, but not talk about it with me, not deal with it with ME, but let's just ignore hers for now because it's only a "symptom". This POS is a $125/hour enabler, not a therapist. A bar tender would have been money better spent.

I talked about how, sadly, it probably took her A for me to truly realize what a world of hurt I caused. For once, I really get it, and understand it, and for the first time probably ever, I felt like we had a tremendous opportunity to understand each other, where we fell short of meeting each others needs, and how we are finally in a position to talk about what's going on in our heads, and THAT's why I've been working so damn hard to save it. I don't NEED this woman, I CHOSE this woman. I didn't want to miss the opportunity to maybe build something we never had. And the therapist's response: imagine the hurt you're feeling right now, and multiply that by 10... that's what she's been feeling. WTF? So, WW's actions, identical to my own, are somehow a mere fraction of my own? If hers are a "symptom", what's that make mine? The "cause"? Let's see. I ended my A. Immediately. I didn't go underground. I didn't stay in contact. I became transparent. I answered anything she asked. Did I volunteer info? No. I was ashamed and frankly, every word that came out of my mouth crushed my wife all over again, so I only opened my mouth when she asked. Did I go out and write a NC letter? No. I didn't know about them then. She didn't ask for that. I did do whatever she asked, and kept my tail between my legs for years afterwards, and tried to be remorseful. Did we take therapy seriously then? No, because she didn't push, I wanted to hide and show remorse the only way I knew how at the time. We BOTH swept things under the rug. I know we didn't handle it the right way. WW, on the other hand, continuously lies, minimizes, deflects, hides, goes underground, hasn't been sorry about a f*cking thing, has kept in touch with OM the whole time, and is adamant about getting out, and "her pain" is 10 times worse than mine.

F*CK BOTH those B*TCHES. I went back to the hotel, collected my stuff, and drove back home, leaving WW, her f*cked up therapist, her POS OM, and that whole miserable existence 400 miles in my rear view. I've gone dark now, not because of some strategy or affair recovery play book, but because I don't want anything to do with that train wreck. My mood, as expected, is all over the map. I'm overcome with sadness, deep depression, and I honest to God feel like my child died or something. But I'm also pretty f*cking angry right now, for the first time since d-day. And I'm taking that as a good sign. I just hope the anger can push the sorrow out.

I can't say today is a good for me. It's really not.


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## turnera

I think it's an excellent day for you.

It finally taught you what you've been needing to learn for years - you need to look elsewhere for love.


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## cpacan

I don't see a happy end for this. If you can't stop her from contacting OM, get out of the relationship. Use your newlyfound experiences to make a super husband for your next spouse.


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## Shaggy

That therapist is a money sucking enabler. Complete waste of money.


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## ArmyofJuan

Plan A never works to end an A and get the WS back, it’s not design to.

Plan A is for people that are still in the early stages (like denial) to give them something to do until they get past that stage. Usually getting frustrated from the WS not acting positively towards the new attention and affection pushes the BS towards the anger stage which then gives them the strength to do what’s’ actually necessary to save the M. Playing the nice guy isn’t going to cut it but some people need to get it out of their systems. Plan A is "too little too late" and the WS always sees through it which is why it ALWAYS fails.

The WS projects their own selfishness on the BS so assumes they are trying to manipulate them by being nice. They never fall for the “Plan A” trick as they see it.

The “tough love” approach is the only thing that gets results. The people that file for a D have a higher chance of an R than the ones that sit in limbo.


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## aug

Looks like your wife and her therapist are using your infidelity as a reason or justification for her "revenge(?)" affair.

That she doesnt want to stop her affair shows she's moving on.


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## Shaggy

The problem with IC is that people thing the therapist will actually try to help call out immoral choices by the patient.

Instead therapists seem to more often be more focused on validating the client to make them happy and so just enable things like cheating.


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## warlock07

> F*CK BOTH those B*TCHES. I went back to the hotel, collected my stuff, and drove back home, leaving WW, her f*cked up therapist, her POS OM, and that whole miserable existence 400 miles in my rear view. I've gone dark now, not because of some strategy or affair recovery play book, but because I don't want anything to do with that train wreck. My mood, as expected, is all over the map. I'm overcome with sadness, deep depression, and I honest to God feel like my child died or something. But I'm also pretty f*cking angry right now, for the first time since d-day. And I'm taking that as a good sign. I just hope the anger can push the sorrow out.


the only good thing you did until now. You don't realize it yet but today is a good day.


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## TroubledInMI

There are just soooo many minutes in a day. It's been almost three weeks, and I don't think I've had a full night's sleep yet. I've been really pissed for the last two days, which is a good thing for me because I haven't been up until now. But night always comes, and the clock ticks by so, damn, slowly.


----------



## turnera

Z-Quil


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## TroubledInMI

Is Jim Beam a reasonable substitute? I don't normally crawl inside a bottle, but tonight seems special. Filing tomorrow morning.


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## turnera

Go for it.


----------



## happyman64

Take some Benadryl and go to sleep like a baby.

Stay strong.

And stay pissed. You make more sense now than you ever have.

HM64


----------



## StagesOfGrief

TroubledInMI said:


> Is Jim Beam a reasonable substitute? I don't normally crawl inside a bottle, but tonight seems special. Filing tomorrow morning.


I got hammered drunk when I was filling out the paperwork. Checked the next morning that I did it all right! haha

but i would go the route of HM64...take some benadryl, get some good sleep while you can. A restful night is few and far between right now. I'm right there with you, thank god for Xanax.


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## TroubledInMI

So how long should it take before I can have a day that doesn't totally suck ass? I mean seriously. I'm not looking for a stellar, rock star kind of day. Just one that doesn't involve me (a) cresting on an emotional high of anger, hatred, and rage, (b) wallowing in the corner with a bottle of Jack sobbing like a teenager, or (c) staring at the wall completely numb from lack of sleep and unable to operate anything more complicated than the shower. Jesus. I've never been medicated in my life aside from social drinking. I don't want to crawl inside a bottle, be it filled with booze or Zanax. I just want an ordinary, sane day. How long does this take?


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## Jonesey

TroubledInMI said:


> So how long should it take before I can have a day that doesn't totally suck ass? I mean seriously. I'm not looking for a stellar, rock star kind of day. Just one that doesn't involve me (a) cresting on an emotional high of anger, hatred, and rage, (b) wallowing in the corner with a bottle of Jack sobbing like a teenager, or (c) staring at the wall completely numb from lack of sleep and unable to operate anything more complicated than the shower. Jesus. I've never been medicated in my life aside from social drinking. I don't want to crawl inside a bottle, be it filled with booze or Zanax. I just want an ordinary, sane day. How long does this take?


This helped me a lot. Worth a try at least

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness_(psychology)

mindfulness - YouTube


----------



## turnera

Probably at least 6 months.


----------



## Chaparral

TroubledInMI said:


> So how long should it take before I can have a day that doesn't totally suck ass? I mean seriously. I'm not looking for a stellar, rock star kind of day. Just one that doesn't involve me (a) cresting on an emotional high of anger, hatred, and rage, (b) wallowing in the corner with a bottle of Jack sobbing like a teenager, or (c) staring at the wall completely numb from lack of sleep and unable to operate anything more complicated than the shower. Jesus. I've never been medicated in my life aside from social drinking. I don't want to crawl inside a bottle, be it filled with booze or Zanax. I just want an ordinary, sane day. How long does this take?


Posters asy that geeting the help of an MD for a while has been a life saver. You also nee to dee a counselor experienced in PTSD. JUst as fast as you can. Unfortunately, they see this all the time.

Good Luck


----------



## walkonmars

Get involved in your community. Volunteer as a tutor @ juvie hall, volunteer @ juvie probation, work as a big brother, food bank, homeless shelter, etc

You have a lot to offer.

While distracted w these activities you will heal your heart and strengthen your soul


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## TroubledInMI

Went on the road this week for work, hoping it would keep me distracted and maybe help me focus on work itself for a change. Not so much. Just came across some "news" that this isn't the first time dear old WW has stepped out on me during our marriage. Or the even the second.

I have to say, after my affair, I've been walking around with my tail between my legs, not knowing how to deal with it myself, or how to help my WW deal with it, and watching her pain, and trying to just stay out of the way. Now I find out, she's been a ****ing ***** throughout our marriage. My soul is crushed. I've only just begun to process THIS affair, and feeling more guilt than anger, and now there's at least a couple more? I guess I don't deserve sympathy, but damn it, seriously? I've been the bad guy the last 3 years?


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## turnera

Yep. Now you can walk away and thank God you didn't wait another 30 years to find out you married the wrong person.


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## OldWolf57

NOW you see this is an exit affair !!!
The others was payback, even if you didn't know. She knew. Now that she figures you got what you deserved, she is walking away.

Damn she played the victim well !! Bro, that woman is pure evil.

Hell, she may have been doing this before your A.

Anyway, this should take care of your guilt, and you should be into straight anger by now.

But, don't call her, just wait for her to contact you. THEN BLAST her cheating butt.


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## Acabado

Sorry man


> Now I find out, she's been a ****ing ***** throughout our marriage. My soul is crushed.


Do you mean after your own affair or even before yours?


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## TroubledInMI

Acabado said:


> Sorry man
> Do you mean after your own affair or even before yours?


I don't have enough details. Just know there were at least a couple others during our marriage. Also learned that the 3 or 4 boyfriends she dated before me, she didn't exactly break up with. She entered an affair with bf 2 while dating bf 1, left 2 for 3, etc. Basically, she's been a serial cheater her whole life. I know I'm not the first to say this, but how the he'll could I have missed so much?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

So she at least has a huge stroy of "overlaping" (cake eating).
Also maybe a couple of potentially RAs (better case) while making you walk on eggshells and jumping to win her back for three solid years. I wonder whether her IC is aware of it, in that case she had to be laughing her ass or maybe pitying you when you poured your heart last week talking on how to make amends because you failed to do so properly after your affair. It's also possible IC was in the dark also, drinking the cool aid and supporting her on her decision to divorce you over your cheating and failure after dday.

I hate manipulators.

Try to dig for more info, get the red pill, sail towards the horizon (remember Trumans show?), search the truth.


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## warlock07

So a serial cheater is getting together with another. Good luck to them. get away from this mess as fast as possible. You know what happens when you wrestle with a pig that is rolling in mud ?


Also, how did you find out this new information ?


----------



## Acabado

warlock07 said:


> *So a serial cheater is getting together with another*. Good luck to them. get away from this mess as fast as possible. You know what happens when you wrestle with a pig that is rolling in mud ?
> 
> 
> Also, how did you find out this new information ?


It was me who bolded that part. I didn't remember OM was also a serial. That's why she didn't seem phased about this info. In her mind the problem is always elsewhere, lukely she has bad luck with men, they always fails her. They were the wrong match, except she didn't know then. She just had to fix her picker. Wait, it's already done. OM is the right one. I'm sure she projects this onto OM. In that sense they are real soulmates.


----------



## TroubledInMI

Acabado said:


> I wonder whether her IC is aware of it, in that case she had to be laughing her ass or maybe pitying you when you poured your heart last week talking on how to make amends because you failed to do so properly after your affair. It's also possible IC was in the dark also, drinking the cool aid and supporting her on her decision to divorce you over your cheating and failure after dday.


IC is a total piece of ****. And is totally aware.


----------



## TroubledInMI

warlock07 said:


> So a serial cheater is getting together with another. Good luck to them. get away from this mess as fast as possible. You know what happens when you wrestle with a pig that is rolling in mud ?
> 
> Also, how did you find out this new information ?


Yep. Good luck to them. I'm usually pretty decent with words, but I can't even find any to express my level of rage and disgust right now.

I can't divulge how I learned the new info, but I owe a lot of you folks on this site and in this thread for advice on how to gather that info.


----------



## happyman64

TroubledInMI said:


> I don't have enough details. Just know there were at least a couple others during our marriage. Also learned that the 3 or 4 boyfriends she dated before me, she didn't exactly break up with. She entered an affair with bf 2 while dating bf 1, left 2 for 3, etc. Basically, she's been a serial cheater her whole life. I know I'm not the first to say this, but how the he'll could I have missed so much?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think a few people said this might not be her 1st rodeo.

And TIM, you learned from your A. You took the blame, we're remorseful and worked on the marriage.

You wonder if the hits you were suffering in your self esteem were because your wife was not giving you or the marriage 100% of her attention.

It does not make infidelity right, nothing does but it sure could answer a few of your question and address certain feelings.

Just move on and get yourself to a better stage of your life.


----------



## warlock07

TroubledInMI said:


> Yep. Good luck to them. I'm usually pretty decent with words, but I can't even find any to express my level of rage and disgust right now.
> 
> I can't divulge how I learned the new info, but I owe a lot of you folks on this site and in this thread for advice on how to gather that info.


My intention with the question is not about curiosity. There was a poster sometime back who broke up with his wife for her affair. He them got together with a close mutual friend(emotionally) who fed him lies about the numerous affairs his wife had through out the marriage so that she could steal him and have him as a father to her kids or something like that. So stay careful. if the information source is not the most reliable, be skeptical.


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## TroubledInMI

Well, let's just say I heard from the horse's mouth. Keep in mind, that horse's mouth is always full of lies when it speaks to *me*, but it wasn't speaking to me.


----------



## warlock07




----------



## sandc

TroubledInMI said:


> Well, let's just say I heard from the horse's mouth. Keep in mind, that horse's mouth is always full of lies when it speaks to *me*, but it wasn't speaking to me.



Damn.


----------



## Shaggy

At least now you understand why she isn't bothered by the OM being a lying cheating scumbag. They share a common set of ethics and values.

This should also make it easier for you to do what needs now to be done and do so without any hesitation or doubt.


----------



## MarriedTex

TroubledInMI said:


> Well, let's just say I heard from the horse's mouth. Keep in mind, that horse's mouth is always full of lies when it speaks to *me*, but it wasn't speaking to me.


Do you have a sense of whether all of her affairs were after your indiscretion? Or does there appear to be some of her activity taking place before yours?

The answer tells us a lot. If she was cheating on you prior, it may help explain in part why you went outside marriage (not getting full emotional investment from her from the start.)

If after, it may reflect the true depth of her bitterness against your actions. 

I'm sorry it's come to this for you. Either way, sounds too toxic to save. My condolences.


----------



## TroubledInMI

MarriedTex said:


> Do you have a sense of whether all of her affairs were after your indiscretion? Or does there appear to be some of her activity taking place before yours?


Don't know for sure, but my sense is over the course of our marriage, so suspecting at least one was before mine. I did not get the sense that they were out of revenge.



MarriedTex said:


> The answer tells us a lot. If she was cheating on you prior, it may help explain in part why you went outside marriage (not getting full emotional investment from her from the start.)


Not to excuse my behavior, because there is no excuse. But for me, my A was about consensual, no-strings sex. I didn't form an emotional bond there, had no desire to leave my wife, just wanted to get laid. Sounds shallow, but that's the deal. When I got caught, I had no problem ending it.

Even if all (not sure how many yet) of her A's were after mine, she's got a history of doing this to *at least* the last 3 boyfriends she dated prior to meeting/marrying me. What I don't know, among other things, is if I was BF4/AP4 which she used to "move on" from BF3.



MarriedTex said:


> I'm sorry it's come to this for you. Either way, sounds too toxic to save. My condolences.


That's exactly right. Up until now, I was clinging to a thread of hope, wondering if the whole divorce filing, her looking at apartments, no contact between her and I at all, me working on the 180, etc., might eventually pan out. I figured her (current) affair would end one way or another, she'd come down off her high, start to see things clearly, and maybe we'd have something to talk about. I knew the odds were not great, but I had hope, and figured it took months to finalize a divorce anyway. But now, wow. No way. I want no part of her. And it's not even the (now multiple) affairs that enrages me the most. It's the fact that our entire relationship started out on a lie, and has been nothing but lies, continues to be lies, and I'm being painted out to the bad guy here. F*ck her.

Time to change the locks. I don't know what she's planning in terms of when to come home to pick up her stuff and start moving out. I know she's shopping apartments. But I can't deal with her stopping in on the weekends as she feels like it and trickle her way out. Hell no. As far as I'm concerned, it's not her home anymore. Once she gets an apartment, she can make an appointment, rent a truck, and clean out in one weekend, and off she goes. I'm done.


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## happyman64

TroubledInMI said:


> Well, let's just say I heard from the horse's mouth. Keep in mind, that horse's mouth is always full of lies when it speaks to *me*, but it wasn't speaking to me.


I am glad your wife is that stupid. You should be too!

Loose lips do sink ships. Case in point.

[QUOTETime to change the locks. I don't know what she's planning in terms of when to come home to pick up her stuff and start moving out. I know she's shopping apartments. But I can't deal with her stopping in on the weekends as she feels like it and trickle her way out. Hell no. As far as I'm concerned, it's not her home anymore. Once she gets an apartment, she can make an appointment, rent a truck, and clean out in one weekend, and off she goes. I'm done.][/QUOTE]

So now you have a plan. Stick to it. Change the locks now. Let her know D is proceeding and you will let her know when she can pick her stuff up.

You have learned a lot from your own A. Hopefully you now know how to pick a better woman as well.

Stay strong! Stay Angry and get this crap out of your life so you can have a better future.

HM64


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## Acabado

If indeed one of her affairs happened before yours it also explain why she didn't make any kind of demand (well you inmediately ended it) as of full disclosure, transparence... the whole 9 yards of the betrayed. She just seemed disapointed and withdrew but putting a facade.


----------



## TroubledInMI

Just learned WW (or STBXW) is planning on coming "home" this weekend. Assuming she's planning to stay at *my* home, and assuming she's coming to collect some of her stuff. But I don't know. I haven't communicated with her in a week. I'm a little torn as to how to approach this little visit.

On the one hand, she's STILL having an affair that she barely admits to, and has had several others I haven't even confronted her with (and at this point, don't see any reason to), she's shopping for a new place that I won't have a key to, won't be staying at, so why should she be entitled to stay here, even if the purpose of the visit is to collect stuff? My gut (ok, maybe rage) wants her to get a hotel, rent a moving van, and come over when it's convenient *for me*, and collect all her stuff this weekend and be gone.

On the other hand, she's agreed (so far, don't trust the b*tch) to make our divorce as easy and cheap as possible. While all the details of the property settlement have not been worked out, she's agreed to use my attorney. So while I don't want her stopping in whenever she feels like it to pack stuff here and there, I also want to keep her agreeable. I don't even want to talk to her about anything other than her move date and property settlement matters. I want all interactions with her to be pure business, and monitored by either a witness or VAR (given her IC is such a b*tch and suggesting I'm somehow dangerous).

So what to do? Tell her to rent a car, stay at a hotel, stop by U-Haul and start packing? Or take the high road, let her stay in the guest room, and assist her in packing so the deed gets done as quickly as possible, and avoid all other subjects?


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## Shaggy

How about a compromise.

Let her stay in the guest room, but write down the names of her affair partners on the bathroom mirror so when it fogs up, they show up?

Creepy perhaps, but yet fun.


----------



## Machiavelli

Change the locks. Get an attractive female friend, better yet get two friends, that WW has never seen before to come over and answer the door when your WW rings the bell. Then tell your wife you've got guests and she'll have to stay elsewhere.


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## TroubledInMI

Shaggy said:


> How about a compromise.
> 
> Let her stay in the guest room, but write down the names of her affair partners on the bathroom mirror so when it fogs up, they show up?
> 
> Creepy perhaps, but yet fun.


While I love this idea, I don't know the names.


----------



## badbane

Man why waste any more of your time. The amount of effort to be able to trust this woman again would be monumental. I mean given her history and current behavior. Why put yourself through it all. You deserve someone you won't have to implant a GPS in to trust again. She gets bored and goes and gets a boyfriend. She is a long term addict of the new relationship. I suggest you put her out, minimize the damage financially to your self and find a new partner.


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## TroubledInMI

Well that's exactly what I'm doing. I assume she's here to pack her stuff, not work things out (because that's just not an option). The question before the forum is do I be polite and all business, and assist her in moving out as much as possible this weekend? Or do I be a **** and make it an uglier situation? I want to get a settlement agreement in place that I can be happy with, and get it while she's being agreeable, before her a$$hole IC convinces her to lawyer up and make this expensive for both of us.


----------



## happyman64

> *So what to do? Tell her to rent a car, stay at a hotel, stop by U-Haul and start packing? Or take the high road, let her stay in the guest room, and assist her in packing so the deed gets done as quickly as possible, and avoid all other subjects?*


You answered your own question.

Though I do like the names of the AP's in the mirror trick.


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## sandc

If it were me and I needed my wife to behave throughout the divorce... I would let her stay in the guest room, help her pack, etc. Stay emotionless, do not be baited into any discussions that do not involve the task at hand. Offer to ship her other stuff to her or take it to a storage facility. Then after her stuff is gone, change the locks and only communicate with her through your lawyer.

Don't let her make your life miserable for one more second. Get her out, move on, and start living again.


----------



## TroubledInMI

I figured taking the high road was the better play, but I have to be honest, I've been holding back a fair amount of rage the last couple days, and I know having her around is going to require a tremendous amount of composure.


----------



## Shaggy

The high road does not equal passive door mat either. Let her do the work, while you relax or leave to have fun.

Make sure to have tax info saved offsite,you will wantitlater.


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## warlock07

get it done as fast as possible


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## OldWolf57

This is one of those times you have to bite the bullet man. Don't cut off your nose to spite your face.
That don't mean you have to help her. tell her you would like to have her gone in one trip. Even go so far as to tell her you will hire some help to get it done. You want this trip to be the last time she cross your threshold.


----------



## turnera

Hire a couple beautiful women to house sit the house for the weekend. You go away and have a great time and let her sit and stew about all the women at your house.


----------



## TroubledInMI

I talked to my friend last night, the one she had reached out to before for a ride from the airport last time she flew home, the one she stayed with for a day or two because of her being "afraid of me or what I might do" b.s. Anyway, he confirmed that she was, in fact, planning to stay at our house and not his. Also, she asked how I was doing, and he said he hadn't talked to me in several days (which was true). She also said she hadn't talked to me in a while (at least a week) and she was "worried about me". Whatever.

So I woke up this morning, again without an alarm, but this time at 6 am, and not 2, or 3 or 4. First time in nearly a month that I've slept through the night. Wow, that felt good. Then I see a text from her: "Let me know you're ok". ???

She doesn't get to worry about me. She doesn't get to know if I'm ok. She found someone else to worry about, to care about, to be concerned about, and chose him (and several others, it seems) over me. The only two times since all of this blew up that she's shown an ounce of concern for my well-being, are the two times I've gone dark. F*ck her.

I don't think I'm going home tomorrow night as planned. I'll let her come home to an empty house and wonder where I might be. I think I'll drift in some time Friday, ask her for the property settlement stuff we started but didn't finish, sit down, complete it, and take it the attorney's office. Then I might ask her where she'd like to be served, whether she wants it at her new address, or if she'd prefer to just pick it up, whatever. And then I think I'll leave and stay with a friend, and not let her know where I am or what I'm doing. I don't want to engage in any conversation that isn't related to the divorce. And I think I might suggest that she spend the weekend segregating whatever she wants to keep out of the house (because she can have whatever she wants), so we can call a moving company to come out, pack it up, and ship it to her new place. That way, it's convenient for her, and doesn't drag it out. But I *don't* want to get into any discussion about how she's doing, or how I'm doing.

She's worried about me. F*ck her. I'll be just fine.


----------



## Shaggy

If you're waking up early - use the extra morning time to go running or the gym. That way you're extra morning time and energy will be doing something good and positive for you.

And keeping dark on her is a great idea. As long as you're dark to benefit you, and not dark to hide from facing her.


----------



## TroubledInMI

Shaggy said:


> And keeping dark on her is a great idea. As long as you're dark to benefit you, and not dark to hide from facing her.


I'm not sure. I think it's a little of both. One, I really don't want to be around her. If I'm around her too much, I'm afraid I won't be able to resist confronting her with all this new sh*t that, in the big scheme, means nothing any more. Two, I kind of like her worrying or freaking out a little. It's the only sign of humanity from her in a long time.


----------



## Shaggy

TroubledInMI said:


> I'm not sure. I think it's a little of both. One, I really don't want to be around her. If I'm around her too much, I'm afraid I won't be able to resist confronting her with all this new sh*t that, in the big scheme, means nothing any more. Two, I kind of like her worrying or freaking out a little. It's the only sign of humanity from her in a long time.


I think going dark is ok when it's you blowing her off because you no longer have use or interest in her and her lies/manipulation etc. AKA - you moving on and ignoring her because as you said "She no longer gets to worry about you", which I take to mean "she no longer has a need/right to know a damn thing"

I think going dark because you are hiding, avoiding, etc - isn't good for you because it's giving into fear, and fear should be faced or else it grows and undercuts you.


----------



## TroubledInMI

I found out OM is in town (where she's working). Tonight, she picks him up at his hotel (not the one she's staying at), and drove him to a bar that she and I used to hang out at A LOT (we both used to live in that city), to show him off to what used to be our friends. Guess they're her friends now. I don't know why this bothered me. I mean, I seriously expected that she was still f*cking him, but this enraged me in a way I've never been so enraged. She's not just having a secret affair. She's flaunting this POS around people who know me, out in the wide open. She got all kinds of pissed when I exposed the affair, and she was particularly pissed about the cheaterville thing, and now she's flaunting it. She's not a cheater. She's a f*cking toothless 50 cent wh*re!

It's taken me hours and two cell phone batteries talking my friends ears off to calm me down. I finally composed an email to her, calmly stating a couple bullet points:

- I see no reason for her to come home. She's not welcome here, cannot stay here, and she knows my reasons.
- She needs to make moving arrangements as soon as possible, and she can come here when the movers show up. I offered to help with those arrangements.
- We need to discuss temporary financial arrangements for her during the transition, since I've locked down the finances.
- We need to discuss, at some point, details of the property settlement.
- All of these discussions can be handled via email.

I hope I did the right thing. Enough is f*cking enough. I get that she's moving on, and believe me, I want out of this as quickly as possible too. But being a wh*re out in public with people I know, the next time I see her, she needs to be taping up boxes and loading them on a truck. Then I never want to see that b*tch again.


----------



## warlock07

You put both of them on cheaterville ? good!!


----------



## Malaise

Nice 'friends' you got. Do they know the story of w and OM?

Did you talk to them about it? Were these 'friends' accepting of him taking your place.

If they did accept him you need to cut them out of your life and let them know why. That would really pi$$ me off if my friends did that to me

You're handling this as well as can be expected considering the circumstances

good luck


----------



## happyman64

TroubledInMI said:


> I found out OM is in town (where she's working). Tonight, she picks him up at his hotel (not the one she's staying at), and drove him to a bar that she and I used to hang out at A LOT (we both used to live in that city), to show him off to what used to be our friends. Guess they're her friends now. I don't know why this bothered me. I mean, I seriously expected that she was still f*cking him, but this enraged me in a way I've never been so enraged. She's not just having a secret affair. She's flaunting this POS around people who know me, out in the wide open. She got all kinds of pissed when I exposed the affair, and she was particularly pissed about the cheaterville thing, and now she's flaunting it. She's not a cheater. She's a f*cking toothless 50 cent wh*re!
> 
> It's taken me hours and two cell phone batteries talking my friends ears off to calm me down. I finally composed an email to her, calmly stating a couple bullet points:
> 
> - I see no reason for her to come home. She's not welcome here, cannot stay here, and she knows my reasons.
> - She needs to make moving arrangements as soon as possible, and she can come here when the movers show up. I offered to help with those arrangements.
> - We need to discuss temporary financial arrangements for her during the transition, since I've locked down the finances.
> - We need to discuss, at some point, details of the property settlement.
> - All of these discussions can be handled via email.
> 
> I hope I did the right thing. Enough is f*cking enough. I get that she's moving on, and believe me, I want out of this as quickly as possible too. But being a wh*re out in public with people I know, the next time I see her, she needs to be taping up boxes and loading them on a truck. Then I never want to see that b*tch again.


Well I guess you see just how concerned about you she is *Not!!!*

Your plan is good.

Divorce her.

She is doing a great job of killing any good memories from this marriage.

I wish you better luck on the next one!!!


----------



## Shaggy

You should also contact the friend she was with and explain the guy she showed off is a MARRIED POS who is cheating on his wife, just like she is a cheater.

Call them out for being enabling cowards who didn't do the right thing and turn their backs on her and tell her to get lost.


----------



## Shaggy

Change those locks immediately.

And contact the OMW and let her know what's still going on.


----------



## warlock07

How are getting all this information about her? Ask that source not to give you any more information.


----------



## sandc

Yeah, let your mutual "friends" know that her new boyfriend is married. I'm sure the story is he's "planning on divorcing soon"


----------



## Disenchanted

TroubledInMI said:


> So for the first time, she finally said it. She wants a divorce. Doesn't want me to fight for her. She wants to be with him. So I left, came home, sent OM an email ceding victory, and cc's WW, OM's wife and all our friends. This is a sad day.


So sorry to hear all of your bad news. I have come to realize that my wife did the same exact thing. Some people around here call it an "exit affair". Basically my wife told me she wanted a divorce and then transitioned her EA with my neighbor to a PA. She did this fairly openly, even in front of my children. On Dday she said "I did it because I thought I wanted a divorce" (meaning to me that she no longer does). So, after a month of my trying to nice her back I find out that she basically manipulated me into having to spend the $280 it costs her to file the paperwork because she either didn't have the funds or the courage or both to actually pull the trigger on the divorce herself.

I wish so badly I would have just filed when she told me what she wanted the first time. What a brutally evil and heartless way to end a relationship.

Serious self esteem issues........


----------



## infinity14

My D-day happened a few weeks after yours...and reading through your posts is the only thing that has prevented me from be a snotty mess while at work. They say misery loves company, and the fact that a well-adjusted person like yourself can be so expressive and honest about every painful detail makes me feel like I'm not alone in this nightmare. You said the words I couldn't find when you said "In my mind, I felt like we had this enormous opportunity to learn from each other and build something we never had, even in the beginning. In her mind, she made her decision a while back, went out and found someone to help her pull the trigger, and isn't looking back." I think the hurt over what could have been, and the guilt from my lack of trying sooner is the hardest part to overcome. I didn't realize how thoroughly he managed to weave himself into every crevice of my life until now...Every song I hear triggers a memory, every conversation I have is like walking across a field full of landmines- each word potentially ready to detonate an inside joke we had. I'm still at the part where I'm pulling for threads, and I'm exhausted by the fact that I feel the rage simmering and know within a few short weeks it's the next step I'll have to take- and I'm exhausted as is...but you started this post at the beginning of the month and have matured so much in just a few short weeks; I have no doubt that time will only continue to help with the hurt- but as you said right now the click is ticking SO slowly. I hope to come back here sometime and see another update where you are in a trusting fulfilling relationship, and her demons have finally bit her in the butt as will inevitably happen.


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## TroubledInMI

I know coming here and reading others' posts and advice is probably the only thing that's kept me out of a padded room. However, I have experienced, for the first time I think in my whole life, a couple of genuine anxiety attacks. The first time, I was at work, was suddenly overwhelmed and felt a tightness in my chest, couldn't breath, and couldn't formulate sentences. I ended up running out of the office, wandering the streets, and wound up at the hospital. I wanted to check into the psych ward, but couldn't find it and couldn't ask for help. So I spent the morning sitting in the lobby, watching people. Rage somehow crept in, cleared my head, and I went back to work. That scared the hell out of me. So, I don't know about me being "well adjusted". I don't know what all the stages of grief are, but I know I initially experienced a fairly large dose of denial, then sadness, deep depression, enormous rage, then more sadness, more depression, then general anger. I'm all over the map and seem to taking two steps forward, and one back.

I'll update on the latest events in the next post, if for no other reasons, then to keep my head organized.


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## TroubledInMI

STBXW arrived Thursday, and I made her stay at a hotel. I picked her up Friday, we went to lunch, there was some minor relationship-like discussion, but pretty light. I took her back to the house so she could begin organizing her stuff, figuring out what she wanted to take this weekend, what she wanted movers to take, and so forth. We also sat down and completed some asset paperwork for the attorney. Right now, she's agreeing to use one attorney, and to keep things as amicable as possible. So there's that. Friday was still a work day for us, which we normally work remotely, so normal employment business was woven amongst this most unpleasant personal business. We discussed in broad terms how we would divide our assets, I took notes as if in a business meeting, and I'm meeting with the attorney Tuesday to lay out a plan that we both agree to, and that hopefully the court will have no issue with. The day was very business like, and incredibly civil, but mixing in normal work kind of broke things up and made it drag on. We also discussed a "transition" plan until the divorce is final, because I own a company that we both work for, and neither of us have ever drawn a regular salary. Since I managed the finances, I've always simply taken draws as needed to pay bills, and give us each some pocket money. That would have to change. I never imagined needing to have these kinds of conversations with the person I chose as my life long companion. I did have to leave the room a few times when the discussion would touch some little thing, like who gets that picture - you bought it for me for my birthday, but now it has kind of a negative connotation to it. I don't really want it anymore, and not sure you do, either. It was weird.

The day dragged on, and we agreed to go out to get dinner. We had a reasonably pleasant dinner, a few drinks, and went back to the house. One of our favorite things to do together has been to sit out on the deck on a nice evening, light up the fire pit, and have drinks and just talk. So we did that. September has always been my favorite month here. We had a lot of talk about the things that went wrong with us, and about some things that went right. I wasn't looking to try and fix anything at this point. I guess I was just looking for closure. Needless to say, we drank too much, and neither of us was in a condition to drive her to her hotel. So she slept on the couch, and I went to bed. I would be lying if I said I didn't want her to come to bed with me, because I did. But it didn't happen, thankfully.

Saturday was even weirder than Friday. No more "real work" to get in the way, so the whole day was spent with the scalpel, severing all the tendons of our relationship. It was pretty tough for me, so I'd escape into another room for a while. She hit some reality points too, as she was gathering stuff together. It was decided it would be easier for movers if "her stuff" was gathered into one room or another, so they could simply pack everything from that room without cherry picking. That gathering, I think, was a dose of reality for her. Once again, we spent the evening together, eating comfort food and drinking and not taking her back to her hotel. I think the best description of the whole sorry thing was like being at a wake. The marriage is dead, never coming back to life, and all we can do is eat, drink, talk about it, grieve about it, and find some closure. So I think I'm moving into grief versus uncontrollable sadness and depression. The anger is still there, but it's less focused.

One thing we did do during another session of "fire pit therapy" was talk about her depression. I discovered a hell of a lot about this woman that I never knew. We talked about how depression and anxiety have been serious issues for her, for her entire life. We talked about her ex's, and how with each of them she was able to find something in the relationship that made her feel good, picked her up, and masked that depression. But when it wore off, she'd sink again, couldn't "treat" her depression with that relationship anymore, and couldn't bring herself to leave a good person. So she'd find someone else, who would make her feel good again, and she'd gain the courage to leave the previous person. "Exit affairs" are a medicine for her. She's deeply ashamed about her past, and would never share that with me before. As for her current affair, and it is currently going on, it's the same thing. While she can see what it is, yet another exit affair, she can't stop herself. When people on this site describe affairs as an addiction, they are spot on. Alcohol has become another serious issue for her. She can't simply have a drink and get a buzz. She has to keep drinking until she passes out. While she's not to the stage where she has to have a drink when she wakes up in order to function, when she does drink, she can't stop until she's asleep. The same with men. When she finds one, gets that hit, she can't stop until the whole thing burns down to the ground.

I could not get her to come clean about previous affairs in our marriage. She denies there were any, but she knows I know. And I told her at this point, there are no more feelings to be spared. No more judgments to be made. I simply want closure. I want to bury the marriage, but I need to know what's really in the casket. She knows I know. And I told her I understood how ashamed she feels, but sooner or later, she'll need to find the courage. Or we'll end up being one of those couples that parts ways and never speaks again. She doesn't want that, and I don't either.

I begged her to find another therapist. Hers is a complete piece of sh*t. She can still see her IC if she wants, but I asked that she see someone else, at least for a while, to get another perspective. Not to talk about her marriage, but to deal with her very serious and degrading depression. She said she would, but who knows. So, the wake continues.


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## turnera

You did well. The stages of grief are by no means a linear set of stages; you feel as you need to feel, to deal. Just let it happen. I suggest you tell someone at work, though, someone you trust, so you can have someone looking out for you.

Do you have an IC? Should probably get one if not. Also, sometimes people need a temporary prescription for ADs, maybe 3 months, to keep your body chemicals working properly. I had to do it after my mom died, for 3 months.


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## turnera

I hope you can see what we see, that there's no reason in hell to stay in this marriage.


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## sharkeey

TroubledInMI said:


> I simply want closure. I want to bury the marriage, but I need to know what's really in the casket. She knows I know. And I told her I understood how ashamed she feels, but sooner or later, she'll need to find the courage. Or we'll end up being one of those couples that parts ways and never speaks again. She doesn't want that, and I don't either.


Most people never get all the answers. Find a way to get closure without learning all her dirty secrets because the odds are that if she was going to share them with you, she already would have.

Even if she gives in to your last chance to control her with your ultimatum which basically says: "Tell me everything or I'll never speak to you again!", if you don't have kids together odds are you'll drift apart and never speak to each other anyway, that's just how it goes.


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## happyman64

You did great TIM!

And I am sad for you that your STBXW is f'd up in her head.

Closure is a good thing when you get it.

But the most important thing now s for you to heal. You can no longer be with this sick woman nor can you help her.

Only she can help herself.

Maybe some of your words will get through her fog.

Rest, eat, drink water and exercise. Keep the stress and anxiety as low as you can.

Peace.

HM64


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## ArmyofJuan

TroubledInMI said:


> Or we'll end up being one of those couples that parts ways and never speaks again. She doesn't want that, and I don't either.


You say that now but considering how she is its probably best you are that couple.

She may have had this exact conversation with her past ex'es, did she stay friends with them?

She is broke and isn't going to be fixed anythime soon, if ever. She will continue this cycle for some time and in the long run you'll be glad she is out of your life. You will be a number to her one day, one of the many ex'es she has cheated on when she does the same thing to the next few guys she gets involved in. Sad but true.


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## OldWolf57

Is she still going to work for your company ??


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## TroubledInMI

turnera said:


> Do you have an IC? Should probably get one if not. Also, sometimes people need a temporary prescription for ADs, maybe 3 months, to keep your body chemicals working properly.


I don't yet, and everyone has been telling me I should. My MIL, of all people, has shown some genuine concern for me (STBXW has been blowing them off so far), and even sent me some recommendations of IC's in my area. Thought that was nice. Most of the time, I'm pretty clear-headed and feel in control. But every now and then, something triggers and I can't even describe the train wreck of emotions. I don't like the idea of being medicated, but at this point, I think I need it.


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## TroubledInMI

turnera said:


> I hope you can see what we see, that there's no reason in hell to stay in this marriage.


No worries there. I have no desire to stay in it. I just would like to walk away feeling I have a shred of self-respect. Wouldn't mind if she showed a little decency too, but that's clearly too much to ask. And it's the continuous kick in the balls behavior that drives me crazy the most. My friends say to me, quite correctly, that her stupidity has nothing to do with me, and doesn't reflect on me. But it sure doesn't feel that way right now.


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## TroubledInMI

happyman64 said:


> You did great TIM!
> 
> And I am sad for you that your STBXW is f'd up in her head.
> 
> Closure is a good thing when you get it.
> 
> But the most important thing now s for you to heal. You can no longer be with this sick woman nor can you help her.
> 
> Only she can help herself.
> 
> Maybe some of your words will get through her fog.
> 
> Rest, eat, drink water and exercise. Keep the stress and anxiety as low as you can.
> 
> Peace.
> 
> HM64


There's a secondary sadness that's been creeping in for me. Not the loss of a marriage, or loss of what might have been, etc. I'm slowly moving on past that. The sadness now is watching her self-destruct. I never really saw or understood how tight a grip depression has on her. It's deep, and has a long history. And she's developed an addictive personality to try and cope with it. It takes the form of anti-depressants, alcohol abuse bordering on needing treatment, and apparently, men. Her behavior in each of those areas is like that of an addict, without doubt, and I can't do a damn thing about it. It's so sad to watch her spiral and not seem to give a sh*t about who or what she burns down in the process. I loved this woman. I do not want to be in a relationship with her any more, but I can't stop caring about her and I'm going a little nuts watching the destruction. Sad.


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## TroubledInMI

OldWolf57 said:


> Is she still going to work for your company ??


Through the end of the year, and only to make taxes and such easier on both of us. But, we need not have any face-to-face contact to conduct that business.


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## TroubledInMI

VAR's and the like are incredibly useful tools, and if ever one of my friends suspected their spouse was stepping out, I'd do all I could to help them confirm or quash those suspicions. But, there is a caveat. You will hear things you NEED to hear, but you will WISH you never heard them. You simply can't unhear something. And I'm not talking about making out, groping, or some raunchy sex act. That will piss you off well enough. But what really tears your soul out is hearing the love of your life tell another man how much she misses him and longs to hear his voice, and can't wait to see him. Those "little" things keep destroying me a little bit every day. Ignorance sometimes is bliss.


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## 67flh

great job TIM,but just wondering if you can truely trust your wife to have all of her crap in 1 room and not take other things? do you plan on being there while the movers are there?


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## TroubledInMI

I do plan to be here. We talked about that, and agreed that while awkward, it would be best if we both were here. She can ensure they don't forget anything, and I can ensure they don't pack the wrong thing. I've offered her anything from the house she wants except for the house itself. Because honestly, everything in this house reminds me of her, so even if she did strip me clean, it would ultimately be healthier for me.


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## Shaggy

TroubledInMI said:


> VAR's and the like are incredibly useful tools, and if ever one of my friends suspected their spouse was stepping out, I'd do all I could to help them confirm or quash those suspicions. But, there is a caveat. You will hear things you NEED to hear, but you will WISH you never heard them. You simply can't unhear something. And I'm not talking about making out, groping, or some raunchy sex act. That will piss you off well enough. But what really tears your soul out is hearing the love of your life tell another man how much she misses him and longs to hear his voice, and can't wait to see him. Those "little" things keep destroying me a little bit every day. Ignorance sometimes is bliss.


Use this knowledge of what hurts when and if you want her to understand the pain too.


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## turnera

TroubledInMI said:


> No worries there. I have no desire to stay in it. I just would like to walk away feeling I have a shred of self-respect. Wouldn't mind if she showed a little decency too, but that's clearly too much to ask. And it's the continuous kick in the balls behavior that drives me crazy the most. My friends say to me, quite correctly, that her stupidity has nothing to do with me, and doesn't reflect on me. But it sure doesn't feel that way right now.


If it helps, think of it this way. When we date, we are on our best behavior. We hide everything that might make the other person run for the hills. It's like sucking in our gut, and once we're married, we can let the breathe out and let our new spouse see the 'real' body. She duped you. No shame in that. Now, had you STAYED there...


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## TroubledInMI

Figure it's time for an update since it's been a few weeks. STBXW came "home" to sort out stuff from the house that she wanted so that when the movers arrive, they can simply pack and load her stuff quickly and be on their way. This was two weekends ago. I offered to pick her up at the airport and let her stay at the house in the guest room so she could work on sorting and packing whatever she wanted. Before arriving at the airport, I got dressed up, put on cologne, and generally looked pretty good. She noticed immediately, but it took her half the drive home to get the nerve to say something. She asked if I had met someone for coffee, as I had told her before that since she was moving on, so was I. I told her no, not coffee, drinks. She didn't make a fuss, but was curious how it went and if I planned to see "her" again. So I made up a name and a back story, and left our "future" vague.

Once at the house, she decided she needed a drink, and I could tell she was less than pleased about me dating someone else. Oh well. I went to bed, and the next morning, we sat in the kitchen and had coffee together, and talked for a while. I told her I've accepted that our marriage was over, but if she wanted us to remain civil and one day possibly "be friends" again, that I absolutely needed a couple things from her. I needed to be able to retain a shred of dignity, and I needed her to show me some tiny amount of respect as we parted ways. First, I needed to know the truth. All of it. Second, I needed her to go to her parents the following weekend, which was to be our 10-year anniversary.

I looked her right in the eye and asked her to tell me about her other affairs, to not "spare my feelings" or worry about being ashamed. My feelings have all been pretty much destroyed, and continuing to lie to me about things I already know about only makes me hate her. As for being ashamed, how much more shame can she have since I already know? All I needed was to hear it from her mouth. She looked me right in the eye... and lied. She said there were no others, ever. I said, "Are you really going to make me drop their names? Do you want me to give you their phone numbers, the dates you were f*cking them, the hotels you stayed at, the names of their kids? Seriously?" She lied again, and "assured" me there were no others. So I gave her the names, the time lines, how they met. Her eyes welled up, and then she confessed, as if there was really another choice. Whatever. I have to say, that despite all of the non-stop lying, and I mean non-stop, I really, really, *really* had hoped she would finally come clean on the way out the door. Hope can be such a powerful drug. So much for getting a sign of respect for her.

So, I took a shower, got dressed to kill again, and left to go on my "second date". I did not come home until the next day. She thought I slept over at my "new girlfriend's" house. In reality, I slept on a friend's couch, having spent the evening watching Disney films with their kids. When I came home, I showered and changed again, grabbed a bottle of wine, made sure she saw it, and left. Before I walked out, she asked if I would be back in time to take her to the airport or if she'd have to get a cab. Seriously? I said, "We'll see." Off I went to "my girlfriends". Luckily, I actually like Disney films.

The next morning I went back home, she was "done packing", and was visibly pissed off. A few comments were made regarding my being out, to which I responded with comments about her repeated, back to back, nearly overlapping, affairs for the last year. She got pissed, started yelling at me, and for the first time in 12 1/2 years, I yelled back. She got both barrels. All this time, I've been taking the high road, being super civil. I went off for about 15 minutes in a non-stop barrage, calling her a few names I can't get past the filter on this site. Immature, I know, but it felt good. She backed down, and then calmed down. I calmed down. We got in the car and drove to the airport. And talked all the way there, in ways we should have all along. Suddenly she was being really nice to me, which of course I completely distrusted. She told me that her boyfriend had "broken up with her". WTF? When I asked why, she said it was because "he couldn't take all the emotional ups and downs". What-the-f*ck-ever. Supposedly, when she called him to tell him that she couldn't spend the following weekend with him (because it was OUR 10-year anniversary and I had asked to go to her parents instead), he got upset and dumped her. Yeah right. I told her I didn't believe her. This douche is 10 feet from the finish line and dumps her? She didn't come home to make up with her husband. She came home to sign the divorce summons, pack her stuff and go back to him. No way their "status" has changed one degree. When I asked if she had actually booked a ticket to see her parents, no she didn't. Instead, she booked a ticket to visit a friend and go to a spa, and planned to visit her parents the following weekend. Whatever. So much for the second small act of decency I had asked for. I told her she was still lying, and he would probably be there "at the spa", assuming she actually intended to go.

She really wanted me to believe her, and promised to forward me her hotel and flight arrangement. She did send me her hotel, but not her flight. Later in the week, when I inquired about the flight, she sent the reservation, and I noticed she was cutting her weekend at the spa short to return back to her work city. No reason whatsoever to do that other than to be with him. I called her, and confronted her about her final act of indecency, her *millionth* lie. I asked her why she couldn't spare me such a humiliation. Why, when she could have this a$$hole for the rest of her life, why she couldn't spend THIS one weekend with *anyone* else but him? All she could say was now was now was not the time for this discussion because she was at work. I said now is the *only* time, because *this* would be our last conversation, ever. We have nothing left to discuss, not ever. We've filed. She's packed, she's got a new apartment, a new lover, our old life and friends with him in it. I've already been completely replaced, so there was NOTHING for us to ever discuss. Anything left to say in the future can be said via lawyers. NOW is the only time she'll have to provide some sort of justification for her deliberately being such a c*nt. No answer. I told her to call the movers immediately after I hang up to arrange a pickup date for her stuff. And that if I don't have an email by the next day from the movers with a pickup date, that I'd call them myself and her sh*t would be delivered to his driveway, and she could sort it out with him and his wife. Then I hung up. That was a week ago.

I got an email from the movers that afternoon. They'll be at MY house on the 24th to pick up her crap. She did go to the spa with her friend, but only for one day, and then she returned to spend the rest of our anniversary with that f*cking d*uchebag. I wish I could say I'm getting through the anger and rage, but honestly, I'm not. Not yet. I'm well past the point of wanting her back in my life, but I don't know how long it will take for me to not see red. I'm sure I've done LOTS of stuff wrong, namely not seeing the signs a year ago, or anytime in between, and not simply booting her a$$ before now. But, I'm not perfect. I've not been a great husband. I've made lots of mistakes, and I wanted to forgive her, and I wanted to reconcile, and I did cling to every false shred of hope she threw my way. I had no idea what a cruel, heartless b*tch I was dealing with. No idea.


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## bandit.45

Yep. She's a heartless cruel beotch..

Now rejoice she is no longer in your life. 

And now go out and get a real girlfriend and stop watching Disney movies.


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## the guy

Theres alot of pages to read, so can I ask a guestion that may have already been addressed.............was the OMW ever exposed?


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## Acabado

No integrity left.


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## iheartlife

Some cheaters will never, ever, ever, fess up and will keep on lying to their dying day.

Don't take it so personally, however. I know you are wishing with all your heart for just a crumb of "respect," but it really isn't about respect from her any more (if it ever was).

No--lying has become an integral part of who she is--she's done it so much and so often that she doesn't know when to stop. The sad thing is she probably believes most of the lies she tells you now. All that lying has blackened her soul. It's very sad, but it has nothing to do with you, it's just part of her addiction. Better to see her corruption for what it is, than to be taken in by it for one more minute.


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## Acabado

iheartlife nailed it.
She has reduced herself to this. Her loss.


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## TroubledInMI

the guy said:


> Theres alot of pages to read, so can I ask a guestion that may have already been addressed.............was the OMW ever exposed?


Yes, pretty much right away.


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## TroubledInMI

As a last parting shot, I'm hoping I can get a court date in December. As long as she agrees to the settlement offer, and she was in agreement verbally before the attorney started drafting it in legalese, this could be a relatively quick (if not painless) divorce. I'm told I might be able to ask for a particular date, so I'm hoping to be able to choose the date on which I proposed to her 10 years ago. Her head is so far up her a$$ that the irony may be lost on her, but it'll be a little something for me...


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## Acabado

I remember you exposed but did you got in touch with her? Am I wrong she told they were reconciling? If that's what she believes she's clearly in false R.


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## warlock07

You should probably expose her multiple affairs to her family.(after the divorce)

What about the OMW ? Does she know of these new developments ?


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## happyman64

warlock07 said:


> You should probably expose her multiple affairs to her family.(after the divorce)
> 
> What about the OMW ? Does she know of these new developments ?


:iagree:

Because her family should know what a whack job their sister, daughter, cousin maybe Aunt really is in real life.

T.I.M. 

You should be dancing in the streets. I know you wanted her back but she is really a very selfish person.

Now go home, rent a Disney Movie like the "Avengers" or "John Carter" with some good killing and a hot babe or two and start planning your future.

Like some real dates with some real women.

HM64


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## bandit.45

Why expose?

For the straight up, pure, pleasurable satisfaction of it...

That's why.


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## turnera

Hell, I'd take out an ad in her new city's paper saying "Ask me about my ex-wife XXX." With a picture.


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## SomedayDig

bandit.45 said:


> Why expose?
> 
> For the straight up, pure, pleasurable satisfaction of it...
> 
> That's why.


Ain't nothing wrong with Cheaterville. Hell, the xOM has like 500,000 hits and when someone searches for his lawyer services, well...that would be the first return in a Google search.

Muahahahaaaaa!! :rofl:


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## JCD

Find his family (Parents) and expose. So every time he takes your stbxw to a barbecue, they can see the scarlet A on her soul. They can see the cad they raised as a son and can live with the shame of their boy being a serial cheater.

Does he have brothers and sisters? I'm sure one of them has had him dangled over his all their lives. Let them see him as he really is, ready to throw his crapulance in his face one drunken Thanksgiving.

You really should send a missive to all your friends about who and what this guy is. You should try ti tweak their conscience. It won't be an immediate thing, but slowly, her friends will have other things to do. If you can find them, send pictures of the OM's kids to her (your former) friends so they can see exactly who this guy is crapping on.

Hand deliver all the information about your wife (INCLUDING her pay package) to the OMW so if she wants to chase after her, she has some ammo to do so. But discuss this with your attorney to make sure she can't take a run at YOU.

It sounds like she works for both you and another company (the one she travels for). If so, I would send a negative letter or recommendation about her to their HR department (not that they will do anything about whom she f*cks but it will start the rumor mill) and also indicate that in the course of your investigation, you've noted that she uses company time and resources to address her 'personal' needs, which they might watch out for. She's certainly used them as an excuse for her current infidelity, so what do you want to bet she hasn't gamed the expense accounts or padded a day or to to her travel for the other POS'?

You owe her nothing.


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## TroubledInMI

I understand the attraction of revenge, because I'm so overcome with rage and hatred right now I want nothing else but to burn her in every way possible. She's a f*cking cruel heartless wh*re who's reduced herself to such a base level of evil, I don't even recognize her.

But... I *don't* want to be sucked into that. I want to move on and lose her in my rear view. I spent weeks obsessing over this POS, monitoring her every move, every communication, waiting to see if she'd ever crawl out from under the pile of sh*t she created. I lost a lot of weight (not a bad thing), a lot of sleep (a bad thing), and did little more than "phone it in" at work (another bad thing). Enough of that. She's not worth it. She was *never* worth it. I don't want to spend another ounce of energy exacting revenge. She's a turd, but looks like a rose next to OM. The best revenge for me, is letting them have each other. He is such a douche, it is only a matter of weeks, if not days, before he kicks this wh*re to the curb, where she'll undoubtedly troll in the gutter for his replacement.

I haven't told her parents about her other affairs, and I don't intend to. This situation has broken them, and yet they still support me (though after she rewrites history this weekend with them, that could change). She's their only child, and regardless of what a waste of flesh she has turned out to be, they need to be able to support her too. I don't give a sh*t about her (ok, a lie but working on not caring), but I still love them, and won't take that from them. I got this advice from her dad the other day: the best revenge is living well. So, I'll let her tell her lies to them if she wants to. I need to figure out a way to let go of my rage, and turn my anger, hatred, and contempt into apathy. Because apathy is the most she deserves.


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## JCD

You owe it to humanity to out the OM to his folks. He's been able to use and abuse his wife (it helps to marry from the invertebrate section of the gene pool) but he can't divorce his folks and they may MAY have some influence on him.

If you don't do it for revenge, do it for the next guy. The POS is going to find another stupid wife and make HER husband feel exactly how you are feeling right now. Do you owe that husband anything? No. Do you wish these feelings on anyone else? Do you have any compassion on the other husband's the POS emasculates. Because these guys are not doing anything wrong except trusting a stupid woman.

This is not exactly a huge imposition on your time. It's a phone call, an email, a mailer.

Put in the text logs, audio, the statements from the OMW, your notarized divorce decree etc so he can't rug sweep.

He should suffer for his actions. It should not be easy for him to do this again.


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## TroubledInMI

OM is not leaving his wife. And she's not leaving him. She said she doesn't believe in divorce, and having not been in the work force (ever), feels she needs his income to provide for her family. So however miserable she seems to be, she won't leave him. She'd rather keep him in a guest room and go through life like that, "for her kids sake". Whatever. Truth is, she'd get everything in a divorce, and be far better off. After what, 7 affairs now (my wh*re XW being the current one), she's gotten used to it.

And I can assure you OM has no intentions of leaving his wife, and not because he gives a crap about her. He's a turd who gets off preying on other men's wives, using them for no-strings sex, and tossing them aside. He'll never leave his own wife because a divorce would *bankrupt* him. Three kids, a wife who's never worked? He'd be poor for decades. He's got it made right now. A mother to raise his kids, keep the house, and let him f*ck anyone else he wants. Who would give that up?

I already exposed him to his family and employer, and put him on cheaterville, and that did no good. None of those people have any influence, or seem to care. As soon as my ex has fully moved out, has gotten her divorce, and is completely available, she'll want more from him. He will NOT be able to deliver, she will be back in the gutter where she belongs, and he'll be off in some airport or hotel bar hitting on some other guy's wife. Not sure what I can do about it that doesn't involve a swamp and some alligators...


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## bandit.45

You did good bro. 

Let her rot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

:iagree:

What you do is move on.

Live a great life. Find a good woman with as few issues as possible.

They exist. I married one.

And no she does not have any available sisters!!! 

The swamp and alligators does have a nice ring to it T.I.M.

You did great!

HM64


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## tom67

I don't know who is more pathetic om or his wife and your ex being a part time piece of @ss, oh well.


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## JCD

The nice thing about serial predators like that is eventually, EVENTUALLY, they hit on the wrong girl. Not that the woman isn't easy. Just that the wife has no idea about the character and mental health issues of her husband.

Eventually, the POS might find himself posted on a headline somewhere. Come the day.

(I do not advocate except Karma doing anything like this)


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## iheartlife

TroubledInMI said:


> I haven't told her parents about her other affairs, and I don't intend to. This situation has broken them, and yet they still support me (though after she rewrites history this weekend with them, that could change). She's their only child, and regardless of what a waste of flesh she has turned out to be, they need to be able to support her too.


Well, I picture them supporting her, all right. I picture them supporting her so much in childhood that she became a rather entitled person who doesn't spend too much time thinking about the nasty impact of her selfish choices. Don't be so sure you're doing them a kindness by sparing them the details of her loose behavior.



> apathy is the most she deserves.


Boy you got that right. The faster you can gain indifference, the better off you'll be.


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## PolkaDottedJamz

TroubledInMI said:


> She thought I slept over at my "new girlfriend's" house. In reality, I slept on a friend's couch, having spent the evening watching Disney films with their kids.


Dude, I'm sorry, but I actually had to crack up! Sounds like your sense of humor is still intact! :smthumbup:


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## sandc

How's it going TIMI?


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## OldWolf57

Hahahahaha, TiM, you must have found my fishing hole with the 12 an 10 footers.

Normally I say go after the pos, but the way panic attack hit you, I think you are going about it right.

Good Riddence to sewer sludge.

Gods Speed on recovery Bro.


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## The Cro-Magnon

The female capacity to lie is astounding. Truly.


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## Polka.DottedJamz

So is the male's. My ex was a pathological liar with absolutely no conscience.


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## TroubledInMI

Sorry it's been a while. I had to take a break. So much damn sadness on here I couldn't take it. No offence. Then I received a really uplifting private message from a member on here yesterday and thought I'd check back in.

STBXW moved out completely, and has agreed to a settlement in writing. Now we're just waiting for the court clock to unwind. I'll be officially single early January. She's still with dirt bag whenever he breezes through town. I used to lie awake at night and think about how great it would be for him to contract some rare, incurable disease. Now I want them both to live very long, lonely, depressing lives, and die alone with no friends. I know, I need to work on my attitude, but it gets me through. Holidays are coming, so he'll have to spend time with his own wife and kids of course, leaving my ex all alone... unless of course she's met yet another random dude on a plane and is filling in the vacancies. It honestly wouldn't surprise me.

I wish I could say I don't love her any longer, but that would be a lie. I feel more contempt every day, and I'm starting to genuinely feel sorry for her. She's a broken, sad person, doesn't even know it, and will never be good enough for anyone because she'll never be able to fix herself. I used to want her back all the time. Now I don't want HER at all. I don't want THAT marriage at all. What I want back is the marriage I THOUGHT I had, and the person I THOUGHT I married. That person may have existed, but I'm not so sure.

I wish I could get through a whole day without thinking about her. I gave her 12 years of my life, and she doesn't deserve another minute. So I'm working on taking my time back. It's a slow process though. Her parents are still being very supportive of me and kind. She's still pretty much blowing them off. She did give them the highlights of my affair "to even things up" (even? this is A #3 - at least - for her), and I did talk to them about it. Yet, they still support me and talk to me. I'm not sure if it's because they love me and still want me in their lives, or if I'm just filling a void for them because their only child is still off in la-la land with a married man. Guess time will tell.

So I've been spending a little time now and then with a beautiful woman who's been my friend for years. We have a lot in common, and she knows my ex, but they're not friends. She's familiar with the whole debacle. I've never tried to be anything other than friends with this woman, but now that I'm about to be single, I wouldn't mind seeing where that road goes, if anywhere. In the mean time, though, I'm just trying to get my head on straight, and simply meet her for drinks and conversation now and then. I don't want to mess up a friendship, but I do enjoy being around her. Someone on here said something to the effect of never underestimate the power of the company of women, or some such. Boy were they right.

Other than that, trying to immerse myself in work, friends, and family, and get through each day.


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## turnera

What a great update. Thanks. And I wish you well. 

The older I get, the more I come to believe that first marriages may just be for trying people on while you mature and become able to pick the right one.


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## happyman64

Hey TIM

As much as it hurts to get screwed over by your wife can tell you one thing.

You will be great someday. And not too far in the future.

You will be wiser going into your next relationship.

I used all that pain never to make that same mistake of picking the wrong women again

But more importantly I fixed my issues and came out a far better man.

And what good woman wouldn't love a better man.

Keep healing and moving forward with your life.

It only gets better.

HM64


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