# Porn Sex vs. Real Sex



## east2west (Oct 19, 2012)

I've been on a bunch of threads regarding pornography lately. A persistent theme is that porn creates unrealistic or wrong attitudes and visuals about what sex should be like. I never understand what people are spouting about when they say this.

My guess is they think that because I have been looking at porn for so long my whole idea of sex is just wrong. Probably the sex I have with my wife every day or so is all wrong too.

So what is it that's wrong about the sex you see in porn?

The anatomy of the actors and actresses?
The sexual acts that they engage in?
The way they do those acts?
Something else?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

east2west said:


> So what is it that's wrong about the sex you see in porn?
> 
> The anatomy of the actors and actresses?
> The sexual acts that they engage in?
> ...


Yep.


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## ARF (Jan 26, 2011)

I'm a male, so I am just making an assumption here regarding porn vs. real sex. Porn is typically made for a male audience. It portrays sex in a manner that is appealing to the male viewer. It may not be typical of the manner in which a female likes to receive it. May work for some and not others. I'm no expert.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

How many people actually make love so that both their genital areas can be picked up by camera from the best angle??


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

The only thing I see wrong with sex in porn, is that women are typically treated like a piece of meat.

Conversely, the only thing I see wrong with sex in marriage is men are typically treated to vanilla sex.


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## LearninAsWeGo (Oct 20, 2012)

You watch porn to get off (as a guy). It's not made to be instructional. It's occasionally a decent "instructional," but only if you're looking to f uck... not to make love. Most women will go for a good f ucking from time to time, but they want a lot more variety in a long term relationship (assuming they value themself... and you).

If you want to make love, it's much slower, more intimate, and more connected than 99.9% of porn. I'd suggest you buy some better sex instructional DVDs or a karma sutra book/DVD if you need to learn more intimate sex techniques. If you honestly think internet porn is the way real sex should be, you are gonna be dissatisfied, and your partners will too.

And yeah, the big ****s, big boobs, makeup, over the top moaning and grunting, big loads or squirts, etc is a bit unrealistic. That stuff can be fun sometimes and it's a decent way to learn or visualize fantasies for you and a partner you care for, but to expect porn type sex every session is crazy and doomed for a feeling of failure.



ARF said:


> I'm a male, so I am just making an assumption here regarding porn vs. real sex. Porn is typically made for a male audience. It portrays sex in a manner that is appealing to the male viewer. It may not be typical of the manner in which a female likes to receive it. May work for some and not others. I'm no expert.


Basically correct ^


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

I don't even know what the hell "porn sex is". There is such a massive variety of different kinds of porn out in the world that I can't fathom what people are talking about when they rant on and on about how unrealistic "porn sex" is. For every single "unrealistic" cliche you can name about a piece of porn, you can find more porn that doesn't fit the mold.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

If you have to ask.....

May I ask what do you think. Which, if any, of the aspects of porn that you listed is realistic to you. 

Why do you think some people might think it is fantasy?

I watched porn with my husband at his invitation. I said I did not like it so he asked me to watch with him and tell me what i did not like. He was relieved when i said i cant see any more. 

What impressed me was that the women were all so excited and theatrical yet their eyes were dead. They were uniform in their desire to display themselves, seemed to have similar personalities, had orgasms in an amazingly short time usually upon seeing an undressed man. They all had perfect bodies, were under 25 and had humongous boobs that did not jiggle. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## east2west (Oct 19, 2012)

ARF said:


> I'm a male, so I am just making an assumption here regarding porn vs. real sex. Porn is typically made for a male audience. It portrays sex in a manner that is appealing to the male viewer. It may not be typical of the manner in which a female likes to receive it. May work for some and not others. I'm no expert.


So do you think that men and women are just wired to like different kinds of sex such that what is enjoyable for men is not as enjoyable for women and vice versa?


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Hope1964 said:


> How many people actually make love so that both their genital areas can be picked up by camera from the best angle??


Probably about as many people who arrange their furniture so that, regardless of where they sit, their face is visible to the camera, a la a sitcom.

Personally, I think that's where some of the disconnect regarding porn lies. Most who view it understand that it represents reality about as much as a sitcom or cop show or movie or...you get my point. Meanwhile, those who disapprove of it, for one reason or another, can't or don't make that mental connection (likely due to the explicit nature of showing that its "real" sex). Of course, there are those who just plain don't like it, the same way there are genres of TV, movies and music I don't care for. It's not for instructional purposes...it's for entertainment purposes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## east2west (Oct 19, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> If you have to ask.....
> 
> May I ask what do you think. Which, if any, of the aspects of porn that you listed is realistic to you.
> 
> ...


Sure.

The anatomy of the actors and actresses?

Porn normally features very fit men and women. I don't think being porn fit is unrealistic or out of reach for anyone, but it takes a lot of work. The men normally have above average size d!cks and the women normally have fake boobs, but those aren't normally the draw for me at least. I don't like seeing ugly people in porn, men or women.

The sexual acts that they engage in?

I don't see anything unrealistic or offensive in most of the standard "hardcore" porn that most people are familiar with. There is a sort of standard cycle of positions that they go through, none of which are unrealistic, but some are more for the camera, not really for pleasure. Most of us probably don't hit 20 positions in a single round of sex, but I don't see it as being a problem in video form. I'd get bored as hell otherwise.

The way they do those acts?

Nothing unrealistic there as far as I'm concerned.

Something else?

For my own taste I've always enjoyed the more artsy porn with the right kind of music, clothing, lighting and camera work, props, etc.... over the garden variety 2 or more people getting it on videos. I try to get a little artsy in the bedroom too.

Basically when I look at porn I have one of three reactions.

1) That's hot we should try that.
2) That's hot but only for jerking off to, not in real life.
3) Boooring. NEXT!


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## ARF (Jan 26, 2011)

east2west said:


> So do you think that men and women are just wired to like different kinds of sex such that what is enjoyable for men is not as enjoyable for women and vice versa?


In many cases I would guess that is correct. Obviously not all women want it like the women I have experienced. In my sex life, my wife enjoys the intimacy of love making by a general closeness. She doesn't want to be exposed like those women on porn. I like the imtimacy as, but I am different as their are times I just want to bend her over a piece of furniture, have at it, and go about my business. Doesn't mean she is a piece of meat to me. I just find her sexually appealing, and want to take care of it more carnally from time to time.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

east2west said:


> Porn normally features very fit men and women. I don't think being porn fit is unrealistic or out of reach for anyone, but it takes a lot of work.


Um, I hate to tell you this, but 99% of women on this planet could never look like a porn star unless they had MAJOR plastic surgery and went back in time 20 or 30 or 40 years. It's a totally unrealistic goal for us. And the fact there are guys who think like this is one of the reasons so many younger women are so insecure about their bodies today. And older women too, although I said younger first because they aren't as comfortable with themselves in general as older women in long term relationships tend to be. Yes I am generalizing.


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## east2west (Oct 19, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> Um, I hate to tell you this, but 99% of women on this planet could never look like a porn star unless they had MAJOR plastic surgery and went back in time 20 or 30 or 40 years. It's a totally unrealistic goal for us. And the fact there are guys who think like this is one of the reasons so many younger women are so insecure about their bodies today. And older women too, although I said younger first because they aren't as comfortable with themselves in general as older women in long term relationships tend to be. Yes I am generalizing.


I assume we are just talking about excess body fat and not other aspects of one's appearance. But I am of the opinion that this is a simple matter of matching your caloric intake to your activity level. The food we eat and the way we eat it are the real problem here. You can spend your life in counseling to convince yourself that your excess fat is attractive or you can just eat right and exercise right and get the body you really want. Oh and you'll also feel better, your brain will work better and you'll be able to have life experiences that you would have missed out on being too out of shape for them. And did I mention the increased sex drive and sexual performance?

/rant off


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

<3 that post above me, could not agree more!!

I watch porn. I like penises. Fortunately its not hard to find lots of clips of just that.

Watching women in porn kind of freaks me out. None of them are wet! Their eyes are dead. It feels a lot like watching a man with a blow up doll. There is no passion there. I find the whole thing strange. But then, I don't find myself attracted to the female anatomy. I am however attracted to male anatomy so even if the acting is bad, I can still watch it. In that way, I get it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## east2west (Oct 19, 2012)

FrenchFry, all great points, especially the racial stereotypes.

I never understood the whole anal thing in porn either. To me there is not much difference between watching a penis thrusting into a vagina or an anus. But there must be a lot of customers who really want to see anal sex as opposed to vaginal.

So many great points. Thank you.


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

You guys must watch a different kind of porn than I do. I would never go to youporn or redtube--to me the stuff there is not erotic at all.

There's a fair amount of porn now being produced that isn't gonzo and doesn't focus on the guy pounding the woman. Especially if you're into stuff that focuses on semi-amateurs pleasuring themselves. No anal, no facial, none of that mainstream yucky porn stuff. Interestingly, my wife prefers the solo woman style even though she's 100% heterosexual. Perhaps the women here can explain that. It's OK by me, because I prefer it, too.

Also, there's a lot of porn featuring Asian women. Japanese porn alone is a huge genre. It's true, however, that black women are shown much less frequently.


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## Mike_O (Aug 3, 2011)

@east2west - thanks for starting this thread.

@FrenchFry - your posts on this thread are priceless - I agree with you 100% and could not have said it better! Now I need to find your other posts... Thanks!


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

I never get off watching porn because it turns out to be disgusting rather than exciting. 
A sex movie is much better. 
Porn is too physical, cold and emotionless, the banging rhythm becomes boring, ugly girls and guys, watching vaginal juices make me want to throw up.

BUT, in my alone time I do have porn fantasies when including people from real life provided that there's emotion between me and the guy I'm imagining.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

When it comes to the racial stereotypes in pornography, it definitely didn't start there. Those tired old racial stereos about "ethnic" women have been around for a long, long time. Porn is rarely innovative; it just doesn't often pretend to be progressive or enlightened. 

FrenchFry is killing it in this thread. Great, TRUTHFUL insights about "mainstream" porn.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> * 1) A woman had a hand in the production, writing, direction, etc. of the work.
> 
> 2) It depicts genuine female pleasure
> 
> 3) It expands the boundaries of sexual representation on film and challenges stereotypes that are often found in mainstream porn. *


:iagree:

I agreed with your post.
But the points 1 - 3 answers the OP's question best in my opinion.

The problem with porn beside that of moral issues, is that a lot of people are irrational in their approach towards it.
The fact is porn has existed for quite sometime and was designed for MALE consumption. 
If women had more input, or consideration was given to a woman's point of view by pornographers , its impact on women would be more positive.

Having viewed lots of porn in the past, I find it boring because it lacks any real talent and imagination. To me, the script is always the same. I don't need to fantasize about beautiful women with tits that defy gravity because I have had lots of that in real life.
But I would also add that I also find most TV shows to be boring. I am at a stage in my life where my Direct TV is stuck on History , Discovery and National Geographic channels.

But people need to understand that,
Porn is fantasy, full stop.
Just like any other movie production.

I have read where within recent times efforts have been made to cross the male bias in its consumer appeal.If this is successful, maybe there will be less objection to porn from women.

You cannot compare a fantasy with real life.
The average man in porn is well endowed or well built.
The average woman in porn is also well endowed and perfectly made up even though she's naked.

The average Hollywood male action star is well built, has access to lots of guns, money , drives expensive fast cars ,crashes them and never gets caught by the cops, in the movies.
His female contemporary only wears designer outfits , is at the top of her career, drives a luxury sedan,is the life of the party , has handsome hunks eating out of her hand,manages her relationships with ease , and always comes out winning.

My point is,
These types of production are basically designed to explore human fantasies.
Power, adventure ,lust , money, love, romance and sex.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

jaquen said:


> *FrenchFry is killing it in this thread.* Great, TRUTHFUL insights about "mainstream" porn.


Yup,

I agree 100% with French Fry.
I think her criticisms are spot on.


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## east2west (Oct 19, 2012)

jaquen said:


> When it comes to the racial stereotypes in pornography, it definitely didn't start there. Those tired old racial stereos about "ethnic" women have been around for a long, long time. Porn is rarely innovative; it just doesn't often pretend to be progressive or enlightened.
> 
> FrenchFry is killing it in this thread. Great, TRUTHFUL insights about "mainstream" porn.


True, porn does did not create those stereotypes but I can see how it does amplify or reinforce them.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

With maturity comes different answers to this question.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

east2west said:


> True, porn does did not create those stereotypes but I can see how it does amplify or reinforce them.


Reinforce? Definitely. Amplify? I don't think so. As horrendous as the sexual stereotypes in porn can be, the caricatures they are based off tend to be even more potent.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

jaquen said:


> Reinforce? Definitely. Amplify? I don't think so. As horrendous as the sexual stereotypes in porn can be, the caricatures they are based off tend to be even more potent.


I can see this point... to me I always thought that the stereotypes of "blondes on blacks" was just a porn industry thing, one which seems to have some correlation to other aspects in our culture. Had no idea how real it was until it became my own reality with my former spouse, and I honestly can't say if it was something that was amplified, or maybe even stemmed, from modern day porn.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Frenchfry: Excellent post. A "like" wasn't enough...


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

sinnister said:


> With maturity comes different answers to this question.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

This is soooooo true!


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

My $0.02:

While I agree porn interactions as a whole do not represent real-life relations and sexuality, I think we should be careful with an overreaching "porn is fantasy" statement.

The reason I say so is that porn is often cited by LD partners as being the source of problems in the relationship. Requests for incorporating oral or toys into sex are met with "where did you see that?" Watching porn automatically brands you as a pervert and makes all your sexual requests suspect.

I think it's more fair to say that there's generally nothing wrong with the sexual acts in porn; it's the relationship context (or lack thereof) that makes it fantasy and not realistic.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

DTO said:


> My $0.02:
> 
> While I agree porn interactions as a whole do not represent real-life relations and sexuality, I think we should be careful with an overreaching "porn is fantasy" statement.
> 
> ...


Are you saying that asking a question is an accusation of perversion? Maybe communication is in order because you may be wrong. 

The assumption that women dislike porn because they are unreasonably resistant to perfectly normal sexual acts is way off the mark, in my opinion. 

It is more likely that since porn is made for male consumption, the sex acts depict women giving men pleasure and not the other way around. This may cause 2 problems. 

Problem 1. The LD partner may be resistant to communicate the real reasons that they object to participating in acts common to porn. Making an accusation of selfishness is hard to do. They may also be reluctant to make request or suggestion on how to make the acts more pleasurable for them too. 

Problem 2. The HD partner may rarely consider that sexual acts depicted in porn offer little or no pleasure for many woman. It seems natural that a LD partner would turn down a one- sided request. Taking the raw ideas from porn and making them mutually pleasurable may work.


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## east2west (Oct 19, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> It is more likely that since porn is made for male consumption, the sex acts depict women giving men pleasure and not the other way around.


This is the exactly why I started this thread. I see statements like this thrown around all over the place. Yet I have no idea what it means. It sounds as if you are saying that the type of sex typically seen in porn could only be enjoyed by a man. But that leaves me to wonder what sex that is pleasurable for a woman would look like.


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## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

East2west, it honestly surprises me that you, as a man,would not understand what pleasurable sex for a woman would look like. Have you never asked your wife, or ex's what would make sex most pleasurable for them? I can assure you that they would not rattle off a list of "porn moves" (vaginal to anal, anal with no lubricant, hard pounding away, lack of foreplay, aggressive cunnilingus, no clitoral stimulation, hard squeezing and grabbing, "acrobatic" positions, etc...)
Porn is made for a male audience. Men are more aggressive (typically) sexually than women are in a way that can be unappealing to women.
I watch porn, enjoy it, as does my husband. But we don't bring "porn sex" into our bedroom. The sex we have is geared towards a female audience (me) so it is more appealing and pleasurable to me. My husband enoy more agressive sex so we save that for "quickies"! I never O during those times because that type of sex is for a more male audience (him).
Men and women are different. You really should ask your wife what type of sex she would most enjoy andsee what she says, then compare that to your typical porn. Its probably night and day




east2west said:


> This is the exactly why I started this thread. I see statements like this thrown around all over the place. Yet I have no idea what it means. It sounds as if you are saying that the type of sex typically seen in porn could only be enjoyed by a man. But that leaves me to wonder what sex that is pleasurable for a woman would look like.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## east2west (Oct 19, 2012)

aribabe said:


> East2west, it honestly surprises me that you, as a man,would not understand what pleasurable sex for a woman would look like. Have you never asked your wife, or ex's what would make sex most pleasurable for them? I can assure you that they would not rattle off a list of "porn moves" (vaginal to anal, anal with no lubricant, hard pounding away, lack of foreplay, aggressive cunnilingus, no clitoral stimulation, hard squeezing and grabbing, "acrobatic" positions, etc...)
> Porn is made for a male audience. Men are more aggressive (typically) sexually than women are in a way that can be unappealing to women.
> I watch porn, enjoy it, as does my husband. But we don't bring "porn sex" into our bedroom. The sex we have is geared towards a female audience (me) so it is more appealing and pleasurable to me. My husband enoy more agressive sex so we save that for "quickies"! I never O during those times because that type of sex is for a more male audience (him).
> Men and women are different. You really should ask your wife what type of sex she would most enjoy andsee what she says, then compare that to your typical porn. Its probably night and day
> ...


The thing is, for every woman like you, there is another woman who wants her man to be more aggressive in the bedroom. And my own wife is way more likely to O from the more aggressive type of sex. Aggressive sex provides more stimulation to the lady bits. That's more or less the definition of aggressive.

I guess I don't really buy the "men and women are different" line, if it means that men like it fast and rough and women like it slow and sensual. That just doesn't ring true to me at all.


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## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

East2west, when your wife masturbates... how does she do it? And I don't mean how does she masturbate when you're watching but how she does it when you're not. I can almost guarntee that she's not pounding her clitoris or vagina, nor is she having non lubed anal with a toy, or any other such "porn act" that I listed. That's not pleausrable to women.

Men and woman ARE different. I don't think that should even be a discussion, testosterone and estrogen, penises and vaginas, breast and "man boobs" lol. We're different. Women enjoy different types of stimulation because we have different parts. Do you assume that the way you enjoy sex is the same way your wife enjoys it because you two are the same?



east2west said:


> The thing is, for every woman like you, there is another woman who wants her man to be more aggressive in the bedroom. And my own wife is way more likely to O from the more aggressive type of sex. Aggressive sex provides more stimulation to the lady bits. That's more or less the definition of aggressive.
> 
> I guess I don't really buy the "men and women are different" line, if it means that men like it fast and rough and women like it slow and sensual. That just doesn't ring true to me at all.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## east2west (Oct 19, 2012)

aribabe said:


> East2west, when your wife masturbates... how does she do it? And I don't mean how does she masturbate when you're watching but how she does it when you're not. I can almost guarntee that she's not pounding her clitoris or vagina, nor is she having non lubed anal with a toy, or any other such "porn act" that I listed. That's not pleausrable to women.
> 
> Men and woman ARE different. I don't think that should even be a discussion, testosterone and estrogen, penises and vaginas, breast and "man boobs" lol. We're different. Women enjoy different types of stimulation because we have different parts. Do you assume that the way you enjoy sex is the same way your wife enjoys it because you two are the same?
> 
> ...


Of course there are differences between men and women. But that doesn't mean you can just declare a difference wherever you want. Penises and vaginas must be evolved to work together in a compatible way. It would be quite sad otherwise.


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## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

Penises and vaginas are compatible, they "fit". 
Men and women are diferent, I'm declaring it because its just a fact of life. Men and women enjoy sex differently because we're different from one another. Women have erogenous zone's that men do not, that means we experience difference stimulations and need different stimulations. You don't have a clitoris, g spot, labia, or nipples that can be sexually aroused (I presume), but women do. Failing to take those facts into account when having sex with a woman would leave the woman highly unsatisfied. Porn fails to take those facts into account, which is unsurprisng, since "porn sex" is for the benefit of the major audience, men. 

"Porn sex" is for men and their benefit. Nothing wrong with that except for the unrealistic expectations it creates in men and women. Men begin to think like you that men and women are similiar enough that women should enjoy sex the same as most men do. And women begin to feel inadequate if they do not enjoy "porn sex" the way porn stars seems to.




east2west said:


> Of course there are differences between men and women. But that doesn't mean you can just declare a difference wherever you want. Penises and vaginas must be evolved to work together in a compatible way. It would be quite sad otherwise.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## east2west (Oct 19, 2012)

aribabe said:


> Penises and vaginas are compatible, they "fit".
> Men and women are diferent, I'm declaring it because its just a fact of life. Men and women enjoy sex differently because we're different from one another. Women have erogenous zone's that men do not, that means we experience difference stimulations and need different stimulations. You don't have a clitoris, g spot, labia, or nipples that can be sexually aroused (I presume), but women do. Failing to take those facts into account when having sex with a woman would leave the woman highly unsatisfied. Porn fails to take those facts into account, which is unsurprisng, since "porn sex" is for the benefit of the major audience, men.
> 
> "Porn sex" is for men and their benefit. Nothing wrong with that except for the unrealistic expectations it creates in men and women. Men begin to think like you that men and women are similiar enough that women should enjoy sex the same as most men do. And women begin to feel inadequate if they do not enjoy "porn sex" the way porn stars seems to.
> ...


But it's not as if the sex that you see in porn ignores the fact that women have different sexual organs and erogenous zones. I guess we will be debating in circles until we get some sort of handle on what we mean by "porn sex". Can you provide examples of a sexual activity that you think are primarily enjoyed by men, but not by women?


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## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

I actually gave a whole list earlier... "vaginal to anal, anal with no lubricant, hard pounding away, lack of foreplay, aggressive cunnilingus, no clitoral stimulation, hard squeezing and grabbing, "acrobatic" positions, etc..."

But I'll add to that, men having their semen swallowed, putting said semen on the woman's face, "fisting", agressive fingering, having their penis "deep throated",anal to oral. I'm sure there are others

Mainstream porn does largely ignore the FACT that women have different erogenous zone than men. It is rarity to see cunnilingus that could be pleasurable to a woman, or nipple stimulation that most wome would fnd appealing. There is rarely foreplay and if it does exist, it primarily sonsists of the woman "deep throating" the man until he's ready to f*ck her. At which point he bangs away and she o's with little to no personl stimulation. Then he cums on her face or mouth which she then happily licks up and swallows

Yeah, that's for men


east2west said:


> But it's not as if the sex that you see in porn ignores the fact that women have different sexual organs and erogenous zones. I guess we will be debating in circles until we get some sort of handle on what we mean by "porn sex". Can you provide examples of a sexual activity that you think are primarily enjoyed by men, but not by women?


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

east2west said:


> But it's not as if the sex that you see in porn ignores the fact that women have different sexual organs and erogenous zones. I guess we will be debating in circles until we get some sort of handle on what we mean by "porn sex". Can you provide examples of a sexual activity that you think are primarily enjoyed by men, but not by women?


Aribabe gave some examples earlier.

You bring up the point I mentioned earlier. Everyone doesn't have the same idea of "porn sex". Aribabe mentioned some acts that are apart of more mainstream porn that, admittedly, are FOR men. Does it mean there aren't some women out there who enjoy those things? Nope, but I'd venture to say the vast majority of women aren't going to get off from those typical porn actions.

But, yes, there is a lot of variety in porn. Everyone doesn't necessarily think of "porn sex" in the same way.


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## east2west (Oct 19, 2012)

aribabe said:


> I actually gave a whole list earlier... "vaginal to anal, anal with no lubricant, hard pounding away, lack of foreplay, aggressive cunnilingus, no clitoral stimulation, hard squeezing and grabbing, "acrobatic" positions, etc..."
> 
> But I'll add to that, men having their semen swallowed, putting said semen on the woman's face, "fisting", agressive fingering, having their penis "deep throated",anal to oral. I'm sure there are others
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


With the single exception of going anal to vaginal which is just unhygenic and dangerous, I think you are being WAY too aggressive in speaking for majority of women.


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## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

Women aren't snowflakes east2west, their are general things that we like and dislike that you can assume about the majority of us. And mainstream "porn sex" is one of the things you can assume the general woman would find unappealing in her own sex life.

I watch porn, enjoy it and masturbate to it. Do I want it with my husband? Not even a tiny bit.





east2west said:


> With the single exception of going anal to vaginal which is just unhygenic and dangerous, I think you are being WAY too aggressive in speaking for majority of women.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## keeper63 (Mar 22, 2012)

To me, porn is a classic example of life imitating art imitating life, if you will.

Porn exists to make money. Thus, porn is produced that is most likley to be appealing to the target audience, which is primarlily male. As social mores loosen, and more people are exposed to porn (and as the percentage of female porn consumption increases), the sex acts portrayed in porn become accepted and embedded in the mainstream socio-sexual lexicon.

The best example I can come up with is genital shaving, espcially women with shaved p*ssies. What used to be a rarely seen kink has become a mainstream sexual/grooming practice, primarily because of porn. Even girls just on the brink of puberty now shave their girly bits, many or most of them have never seen porn, or never had sex, they just think that because their friends do it, they should do it too. This is an example of the profound social influence porn has had on everyday thinking.

I am not a regular consumer of porn, and neither is my wife. But porn can and does serve as a source of sexual ideas for us as a couple. We are experimental enough to try anything once or twice (as long as it only involves us and not other parties). Some of it works for me, some of it works for her, some of it has no appeal to either of us so we don't incorporate it into our sexual routine. We are willing to participate in some number of sex acts that we don't neccesarily enjoy, but we know are enjoyable to the other (for example, we both enjoy it when I cum on various parts of her body, which is an act that was popularized by porn, but neither of us like our partner's gentials to be completely shaved) . To me, that is the foundation of a healthy sexual relationship.

Porn sex can definitely be a positive influence in a fun, healthy, and vareid sex life.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

aribabe said:


> Penises and vaginas are compatible, they "fit".
> Men and women are diferent, I'm declaring it because its just a fact of life. Men and women enjoy sex differently because we're different from one another. Women have erogenous zone's that men do not, that means we experience difference stimulations and need different stimulations. You don't have a clitoris, g spot, labia, or nipples that can be sexually aroused (I presume), but women do. Failing to take those facts into account when having sex with a woman would leave the woman highly unsatisfied. Porn fails to take those facts into account, which is unsurprisng, since "porn sex" is for the benefit of the major audience, men.
> 
> "Porn sex" is for men and their benefit. Nothing wrong with that except for the unrealistic expectations it creates in men and women. Men begin to think like you that men and women are similiar enough that women should enjoy sex the same as most men do. And women begin to feel inadequate if they do not enjoy "porn sex" the way porn stars seems to.
> ...


I think an important question is, does porn *really *create these "unrealistic expectations" we keep hearing about? While there's certainly little disputing that the current primary audience of the material most think of when referring to "porn" is male, I would suggest that the way we're shown what we're shown in porn has as much, if not more, to do with what makes for a more dynamic (for want of a better term) image and smooth progression of the scene than with specifically tailoring the scene to a male audience. Although, for sure, there's something to be said that keeping a target audience in mind determines what is and isn't "dynamic" in this sense.

And, as we explore the notion of "unrealistic expectations" being set by porn, I find that notion to be wanting. There's a simple reason for that: do you expect your hospital experience to be like an episode of _House_, with a mysterious illness, multiple incorrect diagnoses almost leading to your death (and, almost certainly, bleeding from every orifice) before a miracle diagnosis and treatment is pulled out at the 11th hour? Or, do you expect it to be like _Grey's Anatomy_, with 40-year-old "beautiful people" interns moping around about their love lives while caring for you and soft pop music plays in the background? Probably neither. Likewise, I doubt you expect your family experience to resemble a standard family sitcom with the dim-witted husband, long-suffering but brilliant wife and smart-alec kids who outwit the adults at ever turn. Do _Glee _or _90210 _set "unrealistic expectations" of the high school experience? Of course they don't, because your average person knows not to expect a work of fiction to serve as a model for life.

And so it is with porn...it's a work of fiction. Even the amateur genre is staged for the benefit of the viewer, regardless of that viewer's gender. And, I think most viewers of porn are aware of that. I think that most who come away from porn with "unrealistic expectations" are those who, for whatever reason, dislike porn or just plain don't "get" it. When they become aware that their partner (or someone else) enjoys porn, they think that person believes what they're viewing to be 100% true-to-live and wants to do what they see how they're seeing it. I don't think that belief is accurate, though. I think that people who enjoy porn are just enjoying the performance, and aren't thinking that's how sex "really" is any more than they're thinking a police detective's life and work is accurately reflected in the _Lethal Weapon_ movies.


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## MsLady (Dec 1, 2008)

East2West: sometimes it's not the actual act, but it's EXECUTION that distinguishes whether a woman vs. a man would enjoy it. I imagine plenty of women that could enjoy, say, fisting ... DONE A CERTAIN WAY, that is usually not the way portrayed in porn. Most porn is absolutely geared toward men and their pleasure and their STYLE/APPROACH toward that particular sexual act. And many of the sexual acts (mentioned in a previous post) in most standard porn are not generally preferred by women as a group, even if you we agreed that you could find a certain percentage of women that would enjoy it with the right partner, under the right circumstances and with the right care on his part to make it pleasurable for her.

The main problem with porn is that it doesn't care about women's pleasure. And the porn male partner doesn't care about the woman's pleasure. Sure, there's a lot of FAKING of pleasure on her part, but it's obvious she's faking and it's obvious she's faking for the sake of HIS PLEASURE, which only gives him (and the male viewer's) that much more pleasure because she's that INTO HIS PLEASURE that she'll scream and moan to bring him more of it. 

When was the last time that (general male you) watched porn and thought to yourself, "I can't enjoy this scene because it's clear that the female character is not truly enjoying herself." "Never" is probably the answer for most men.

And yet, most women are turned off and upset by the obvious lack of pleasure for the woman in the porn scene, because, well, they would represent 'us' in the sexual equation that is being put forth. A man watching porn on a regular basis will become desensitized by the woman's apparent lack of pleasure. Not only that, he may be totally thrown by his real life partner's NEED for pleasure. Yes, she actually wants to get off, she doesn't just want to fake it and, no, that porn thing that you saw being done is not what's going to get her off, so the man is stuck with this question ....



> But that leaves me to wonder what sex that is pleasurable for a woman would look like.


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## east2west (Oct 19, 2012)

MsLady said:


> When was the last time that (general male you) watched porn and thought to yourself, "I can't enjoy this scene because it's clear that the female character is not truly enjoying herself." "Never" is probably the answer for most men.


I agree with whomever it was that said "Men have exactly one fantasy, she was into it". If the woman doesn't appear to be enjoying it then it's a turn off. If the woman is enjoying herself, its a turn on. This is true in porn and in real sex.


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## MsLady (Dec 1, 2008)

> . I think that people who enjoy porn are just enjoying the performance, and aren't thinking that's how sex "really" is any more than they're thinking a police detective's life and work is accurately reflected in the Lethal Weapon movies.


Even the military knows that, if they tailor their recruiting to look like soldiers are off in some cool-kick-ass video game, they will get more recruits. I imagine that if you speak to some doctors, they might tell you they've had one too many med student go that route because of some medical show they saw that made them think they could be just like Meredith Grey LOL.

More seriously, you make a good point, but I think you are undermining how much porn can shape a person's sexuality in the absence of how little real-world openness we have in our culture about sex. All the sex most people see or know about outside of their private sexual lives comes from hollywood and the porn industry. And private sexual experiences vary from vast to minute, so ESPECIALLY if you have a conservative number of partners, you might taking a lot more lessons from porn than is healthy for conducting real life sexual relationships.

Finally, porn (possibly like gory movies) raises the threshold for stimulation. I can't watch the movie Saw. It's just too gory for me. I know people that enjoy watching scary movies and all sorts of gore and their thresholds for that has increased the more they watch. I would throw up at some of that stuff. They can eat their dinner and dessert while watching it. Same goes for porn. So, for too many men, if they are watching these over the top scenes a bit too often, how is "vanilla" (real people) sex going to compare ... especially if you have a partner that hasn't been watching along with you and who is not a porn-star equivalent, which is most women.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

MsLady said:


> When was the last time that (general male you) watched porn and thought to yourself, "I can't enjoy this scene because it's clear that the female character is not truly enjoying herself." "Never" is probably the answer for most men.


Always. I abhor porn where the female character looks in pain, uncomfortable, or degraded. No matter what acts are involved in the porn I prefer, the acting needs to be convincing enough for me to believe the female character is truly involved in a highly pleasurable experience. That is a large portion of the enjoyment for me. I've clicked off a lot of porn for the very reason you highlight in this post.

I believe a lot of women assume what men (collectively) enjoy about porn, and many of those assumptions are false. It's very important to a lot of men that they believe the female(s) in the porn are in pure ecstasy, regardless of the acts.


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## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

Emphasis on *appear* to be enjoying it
that doesn't mean she is enjoying

and because so many men have been groomed by porn, they can't tell the difference between her actually being into it and her "appearing" to be



east2west said:


> I agree with whomever it was that said "Men have exactly one fantasy, she was into it". If the woman doesn't appear to be enjoying it then it's a turn off. If the woman is enjoying herself, its a turn on. This is true in porn and in real sex.


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## MsLady (Dec 1, 2008)

> If the woman doesn't appear to be enjoying it then it's a turn off. If the woman is enjoying herself, its a turn on. This is true in porn and in real sex.


My point is that it's not about APPEARANCE for women. It's about it actually being the case, which is exceeding obviously absent from pornography. So I reiterate, most porn and men watching that porn are not concerned with the woman's pleasure. And that has the danger of passing into the way men conduct themselves in the bedroom.



> and because so many men have been groomed by porn, they can't tell the difference between her actually being into it and her "appearing" to be


Perfectly stated!

jaquen: Then you are among the men that is not that way. And there are plenty. Please understand that I am speaking in generalities to suggest that many of people of one or the other gender experience things in a stated manner. I'm not meaning to say "all women" or "all men". And, despite my statements, I'm actually not "against porn" - I think it has it's time and place. I think it can also become excessive and men don't know when to back off it. I also think it has to become more varied to include women's fantasies and sexual approaches and more concern for their genuine pleasure (even if it means boring scenes for the male audience). Mostly, I think that even if you enjoy it, you shouldn't be naive about what it is and what it's for and what its pitfalls are when we're not speaking fantasy anymore, but social implications instead.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Are you saying that asking a question is an accusation of perversion? Maybe communication is in order because you may be wrong.
> 
> The assumption that women dislike porn because they are unreasonably resistant to perfectly normal sexual acts is way off the mark, in my opinion.
> 
> ...


Trust me, as a church-going person. There are lots of people who feel good sex is intercourse. Some (like observant Catholics) feel sexs act not open to procreation are sinful. Others feel that anal, oral, etc. are deviant acts done by homosexuals (obviously not being able to have PIV sex), by prostitutes to avoid pregnancy, or whatever.

So, yeah, I (and others) have gotten the question "you must have seen that in porn". LD or sexually rigid people do deflect their sexual hang-ups on the other person, with the underlying (erroneous) assumption that everything about porn is bad, not just the unrealistic relationship aspect.

As a result, I refute those types of blanket statements. They are used to blame shift from the person with hangups to the person wanting sex other than intercourse. Have you ever known anyone to say "oral sex is fine, I just prefer to not do it"? I haven't; it's always expressed as a morality or sanitary issue.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

MsLady said:


> East2West: sometimes it's not the actual act, but it's EXECUTION that distinguishes whether a woman vs. a man would enjoy it. I imagine plenty of women that could enjoy, say, fisting ... DONE A CERTAIN WAY, that is usually not the way portrayed in porn. Most porn is absolutely geared toward men and their pleasure and their STYLE/APPROACH toward that particular sexual act. And many of the sexual acts (mentioned in a previous post) in most standard porn are not generally preferred by women as a group, even if you we agreed that you could find a certain percentage of women that would enjoy it with the right partner, under the right circumstances and with the right care on his part to make it pleasurable for her.
> 
> The main problem with porn is that it doesn't care about women's pleasure. And the porn male partner doesn't care about the woman's pleasure. Sure, there's a lot of FAKING of pleasure on her part, but it's obvious she's faking and it's obvious she's faking for the sake of HIS PLEASURE, which only gives him (and the male viewer's) that much more pleasure because she's that INTO HIS PLEASURE that she'll scream and moan to bring him more of it.
> 
> ...


Can't we say the same in reverse, though? That the men in porn aren't "truly" enjoying themselves, either. I'm sure the counter-argument that would be made is that he wouldn't be able to ejaculate if he weren't, but that's not the case. They're both performers, and both putting on an act for the camera.

Conversely, do you watch a mainstream movie with a romance and concern yourself that one or both of the actors involved aren't truly in love with one another?

I think those, like yourself, who take umbrage at the apparent lack of concern for the genuine pleasure of a performer in a porn scene are the ones reading more into that paradigm, and expecting those portraying a work of fiction to experience the actual reactions they're acting out.


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## Earl Dibbles Jr (Nov 1, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> How many people actually make love so that both their genital areas can be picked up by camera from the best angle??


I can think of 6 or 8 positions right off the top of my head. :smthumbup::lol:


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## east2west (Oct 19, 2012)

MsLady said:


> Even the military knows that, if they tailor their recruiting to look like soldiers are off in some cool-kick-ass video game, they will get more recruits. I imagine that if you speak to some doctors, they might tell you they've had one too many med student go that route because of some medical show they saw that made them think they could be just like Meredith Grey LOL.
> 
> More seriously, you make a good point, but I think you are undermining how much porn can shape a person's sexuality in the absence of how little real-world openness we have in our culture about sex. All the sex most people see or know about outside of their private sexual lives comes from hollywood and the porn industry. And private sexual experiences vary from vast to minute, so ESPECIALLY if you have a conservative number of partners, you might taking a lot more lessons from porn than is healthy for conducting real life sexual relationships.
> 
> Finally, porn (possibly like gory movies) raises the threshold for stimulation. I can't watch the movie Saw. It's just too gory for me. I know people that enjoy watching scary movies and all sorts of gore and their thresholds for that has increased the more they watch. I would throw up at some of that stuff. They can eat their dinner and dessert while watching it. Same goes for porn. So, for too many men, if they are watching these over the top scenes a bit too often, how is "vanilla" (real people) sex going to compare ... especially if you have a partner that hasn't been watching along with you and who is not a porn-star equivalent, which is most women.


Haha, I used to hate it when my wife put on Grey's Anatomy while we were eating. But now I'm used to eating while watching skulls cracked open and intestines strewn all over the place, mangled limbs and the like...


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

MsLady said:


> Same goes for porn. So, for too many men, if they are watching these over the top scenes a bit too often, how is "vanilla" (real people) sex going to compare ... especially if you have a partner that hasn't been watching along with you and who is not a porn-star equivalent, which is most women.


Another common assumption with no evidence to back it up. There have been complaints about "vanilla" sex since long before video pornography became massively mainstream. 

I have porn watching best friends, and in all our discussions about sex, and porn, never once has a friend EVER compared the extreme acts seen in porn with their real world sexual experiences. Most of these guys would include a damn good blow job as being more than enough spice. Non-vanilla spice is generally oral sex, a few positions other than missionary, and maybe some anal (real world anal, not typical porn anal). 

Typically men who watch a lot of porn do get desensitized...when it comes to watching more porn. So where as they might have once gotten off from Playboy stills and basic male-female sex, things might escalate to DP, extreme anal, "she-male", S&M, and large orgies. But for most men the implications aren't going to cross over much into the real world. 

Lets take your Saw example. The consumption of more extreme violence, for most people, is going to be confined to their film going experience. The hunger for more extreme and bloody kills in a film isn't going to make them wake up and decide that they're dissatisfied with how little violence is in their real life, and make them start brutalizing random people on the streets, or in their family.

Give men credit. We're not as stupid, and gullible, as some of the stereotypes might lead you to believe. Trust me when I say that the vast majority of men, no matter what porn they watch, will be more than happy to be with a woman they find attractive, who actually likes sex, and is open to some pretty normal, typical sexual exploration.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Grayson said:


> Can't we say the same in reverse, though? That the men in porn aren't "truly" enjoying themselves, either. I'm sure the counter-argument that would be made is that he wouldn't be able to ejaculate if he weren't, but that's not the case. They're both performers, and both putting on an act for the camera.
> 
> Conversely, do you watch a mainstream movie with a romance and concern yourself that one or both of the actors involved aren't truly in love with one another?
> 
> I think those, like yourself, who take umbrage at the apparent lack of concern for the genuine pleasure of a performer in a porn scene are the ones reading more into that paradigm, and expecting those portraying a work of fiction to experience the actual reactions they're acting out.


Right on. As a professional actor, I find some of the statements made in this thread to be _hilarious_. When an audience member comes up to me in tears, or having obviously been touched in some way by something I've done in performance, they do not care whether the visceral experience they walked through was reflected in how I truly felt in the moment.

Chances are pretty good that no, I didn't actually lose my wife in a tragic accident, I wasn't really dying from a gunshot wound, and the woman whose throat I was ramming my tongue down isn't someone that I was really getting off to, all before your very eyes.

It's willing suspension of disbelief. Most human beings get that when watching performance, regardless of the arena.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

MsLady said:


> When was the last time that (general male you) watched porn and thought to yourself, "I can't enjoy this scene because it's clear that the female character is not truly enjoying herself." "Never" is probably the answer for most men.
> 
> .


I will answer your question.
I have said here on TAM that both my wife and I have viewed softcore porn, and incorporated it into our lovemaking before.

I have also said that I think most mainstream porn is boring for the very same reasons you listed.

I couldn't comprehend the lack of natural lubrication, and the almost immediate female orgasmic response upon penetration

I couldn't comprehend why a woman would be staring into the camera, obviously taking instructions from the film director while doing her stuff. As odd as it sounds, I usually noticed these things and they were a huge turn off for me.

I couldn't comprehend how any film " director" could think that a single couch against a wall, is the perfect backdrop for a film depicting erotic fantasy.

So basically I told myself I had enough some time ago.
Maybe there are better productions now?
I don't know.


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## Michie (Aug 26, 2012)

If anyone actually spit on me during sex, I would have to kill them.


Is it just me or is seeing the performers spit on eachother for lubrication the hugest 
turnoff. All I can think is how very obvious it is that no one male or female is enjoying the sex.


You would think that the performers would prelube up or something. 
Then they can barely spit on eachother from to much previous spitting and have ran out
of saliva.

I'd take real sex with untame pubic hair real sweat and muss and lust and passion and desire then the total lack thereof displayed in most porn 
productions these days.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Michie (Aug 26, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> So, I'm a woman whose expectations of "how sex is" was shaped by porn and I'd like to chime in because I still enjoy (fairly specific) porn but I had to unlearn and relearn a whole bunch of sexual expectations that come from mainstream porn and now I find the whole thing fascinating.
> 
> So, I consider porn aggregate sites like youporn and redtube fairly decent representations of what mainstream porn looks like and I'm going to kind of base my writing on what I pull up from those two sites front page as to what distinctly turns me off from mainstream porn and also as examples of how I had to change my expectations of what sex is like.
> 
> ...


You frenchfry are genius!!! Brava brava on such a wonderful and funny and most importantly HONEST post!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

aside from amateur porn or porn done by and for women, the differences are obvious. The focus is almost always on the woman's body and the penis. The men are usually not attractive but have really big ****s. The women look like teenagers who haven't been through puberty yet and then got boob jobs. The lighting is awful, the trends in things like gagging women with their ****, grabbing her head during BJ, pulling out and cumming on her, spanking her face with it, the woman going along with whatever and never asking for anything, neither one communicating what feels good other than fake groaning and grunting, lack of eye contact, lack of kissing, lack of erotic talk except for basic standard phrases. 
I think I'm getting old. I used to like that kind of thing but the older I get the more it bores me. Plus the "women" look terrible, all I can think is they just got out of HS and this is their life now. 
I like stuff with older women, amateur stuff and more erotic.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Michie (Aug 26, 2012)

Grayson said:


> Can't we say the same in reverse, though? That the men in porn aren't "truly" enjoying themselves, either. I'm sure the counter-argument that would be made is that he wouldn't be able to ejaculate if he weren't, but that's not the case. They're both performers, and both putting on an act for the camera.
> 
> Conversely, do you watch a mainstream movie with a romance and concern yourself that one or both of the actors involved aren't truly in love with one another?
> 
> I think those, like yourself, who take umbrage at the apparent lack of concern for the genuine pleasure of a performer in a porn scene are the ones reading more into that paradigm, and expecting those portraying a work of fiction to experience the actual reactions they're acting out.


Of course they aren't, if I had a dollar for every deflated limp pensis that happen in a porn scene I would be a rich woman.
Men deflating in porn is almost as bad as when they spit for lube.

No enjoyment no pleasure
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## east2west (Oct 19, 2012)

Would it be fair to characterize "porn sex" as male dominant sex? Where the man is mostly in charge of the situation and deciding what and how to do it?


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## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

No, because it is not just male dominant
It is female irrelevant

The woman's feelings, both her emotional and physical one's are irrelevant. Whether she is pleased or satisfied at all is irrelevant. If the sex acts leave her sore, bleeding, or battling an infection, that is also irrelevant.

Porn sex is sex for men, and in it, unfortunately, the women are largely irrelevant



east2west said:


> Would it be fair to characterize "porn sex" as male dominant sex? Where the man is mostly in charge of the situation and deciding what and how to do it?


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## east2west (Oct 19, 2012)

Michie said:


> Of course they aren't, if I had a dollar for every deflated limp pensis that happen in a porn scene I would be a rich woman.
> Men deflating in porn is almost as bad as when they spit for lube.
> 
> No enjoyment no pleasure
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yea limp d!cks in porn are a big turn off. Not all porn is created equal for sure.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Yeah he's not in charge the director is. 
Spit for lube is gross. 
And how about just ramming it in anally without showing the build up that happened off camera to get her to that point?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Conversely, do you watch a mainstream movie with a romance and concern yourself that one or both of the actors involved aren't truly in love with one another?

They tend to be much much better actors do you don't think about it. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Michie (Aug 26, 2012)

Let's also not forget that once something goes from hobby to work and job it's loses it's pleasure so to speak. The sex isn't fun for anyone in mainstream porn.

My Husband can ejaculate without a gut clenching lose your breath orgasm, but without that cumming just ain't that fun.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Wow...a lot to catch up on in just a short time....



MsLady said:


> Even the military knows that, if they tailor their recruiting to look like soldiers are off in some cool-kick-ass video game, they will get more recruits. I imagine that if you speak to some doctors, they might tell you they've had one too many med student go that route because of some medical show they saw that made them think they could be just like Meredith Grey LOL.


Heh...I'm sure there are some who get into a particular field based on a fictionalized account of how the business works. I think it's safe to say, though, that they're very quickly disabused of those notions.



> More seriously, you make a good point, but I think you are undermining how much porn can shape a person's sexuality in the absence of how little real-world openness we have in our culture about sex. All the sex most people see or know about outside of their private sexual lives comes from hollywood and the porn industry. And private sexual experiences vary from vast to minute, so ESPECIALLY if you have a conservative number of partners, you might taking a lot more lessons from porn than is healthy for conducting real life sexual relationships.


I get where you're coming from here, but, again, I think it's safe to say that such people are generally quickly corrected on how real life works. If they're unconcerned with their partner's response, I tend to think that's a matter of the person, not the porn.



> Finally, porn (possibly like gory movies) raises the threshold for stimulation. I can't watch the movie Saw. It's just too gory for me. I know people that enjoy watching scary movies and all sorts of gore and their thresholds for that has increased the more they watch. I would throw up at some of that stuff. They can eat their dinner and dessert while watching it. Same goes for porn. So, for too many men, if they are watching these over the top scenes a bit too often, how is "vanilla" (real people) sex going to compare ... especially if you have a partner that hasn't been watching along with you and who is not a porn-star equivalent, which is most women.


I think, though, that this once again comes back to the viewer's understanding that those gory movies are fiction. That it's less a matter of desensitization per se, but a matter of not wanting to see the same story over and over and over. That, coupled with knowing that these outrageous acts are unlikely to happen to the viewer in real life. Take, for example, the movie Hellraiser. From the first time I saw it, around age 18 or so, to this very day, I've never flinched at the grisly deaths, the hell-chains flaying people, etc. But when Andrew Robinson's character cuts his hand on a protruding nail head? That one sends shivers down my spine each and every time. Why? Because I can relate to that...I've cut my hand in similar fashion. By the same token, the contortionist, over-the-top sex seen in porn is outside of most people's frame of reference. So, they're able to see the porn as pure entertainment and, as with the rest of their entertainment, as they move on to the next installment, they want to see something different than they did before.

That's my wife's big complaint about most professional-grade porn...the predictability. When a scene's doing nothing for her, she'll frequently make the same comment: "Here we go. Oral on him. Brief oral on her. Doggy. Cowgirl. Missionary. Facial."


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

DTO said:


> As a result, I refute those types of blanket statements. They are used to blame shift from the person with hangups to the person wanting sex other than intercourse. Have you ever known anyone to say "oral sex is fine, I just prefer to not do it"? I haven't; it's always expressed as a morality or sanitary issue.


Personally, I've found that my tastes in porn are shaped by what I enjoy in real life, as opposed to what I want to do for real being determined by porn.

Case in point: I don't recall how I first became aware of anal sex. I remember I was fairly young. And, true enough, it may have been via porn. But, I never watched it in porn. Didn't want to...it held no interest for me. I'd skip over any anal scenes or segments of scenes.

Until...my wife & I decided to give it a try, and we liked it. Now, knowing what it feels like and that it's something we enjoy, I find myself enjoying those scenes. Not all of them, to be sure...some are just plain filmed in an unappealing way.


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## MrsOldNews (Feb 22, 2012)

Spit is the best lube! I know I'm not the only one who feels this way.

I was agreeing with most of the female comments until the spit thing came about.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

aribabe said:


> No, because it is not just male dominant
> It is female irrelevant
> 
> The woman's feelings, both her emotional and physical one's are irrelevant. Whether she is pleased or satisfied at all is irrelevant. If the sex acts leave her sore, bleeding, or battling an infection, that is also irrelevant.
> ...


Again, for the performers - both of them - we're not talking about sex for pleasure. We're talking about sex for work...sex for presentation to an audience. The male in the scene is no more relevant or irrelevant than the female. And, that's the same for any other entertainment production.


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## Michie (Aug 26, 2012)

MrsOldNews said:


> Spit is the best lube! I know I'm not the only one who feels this way.
> 
> I was agreeing with most of the female comments until the spit thing came about.


Would u want your co worker or a stranger to spit on you.

They spit on eachother due to no natural lubrication being present. Not really inspiring.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Michie said:


> Would u want your co worker or a stranger to spit on you.
> 
> They spit on eachother due to no natural lubrication being present. Not really inspiring.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


In the past few months, I believe I've seen 3 or 4 mainstream tv episodes/movies with one actor spitting in another's face.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

MrsOldNews said:


> Spit is the best lube! I know I'm not the only one who feels this way.
> 
> I was agreeing with most of the female comments until the spit thing came about.


Never used spit as lube.
Natural lube = Good Lube.

My wife's natural lube = Best Lube!


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

I've always wondered if Japanese women TRULY sounds like that in bed, I hope I'm not offending anyone but they sound like little girls being raped in porn and I find that absolutely repulsive. If I do get divorced/seperated I MUST find out for curiouscity sake, and only one way to do that...


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## Michie (Aug 26, 2012)

Grayson said:


> In the past few months, I believe I've seen 3 or 4 mainstream tv episodes/movies with one actor spitting in another's face.


My main is the complete absence of arousal, then said man or woman spits on other woman's completely dry vagina. Thus causing me me to focus on the shi t time they are truly having.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Michie said:


> My main is the complete absence of arousal, then said man or woman spits on other woman's completely dry vagina. Thus causing me me to focus on the shi t time they are truly having.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mainstream actors often complain about having to ignore very cold and wet or other extreme conditions when filming a romantic scene. Do you also feel compelled to focus on the bad time they are truly having, as well?


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Again they are better actors and the cinematography, lighting and music are better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

diwali123 said:


> Again they are better actors and the cinematography, lighting and music are better.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Some yes, some no.

Don't believe me? I've got two words for you to prove my case: Kristen Stewart.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Men in porn are acting just as much as women. In porn it's the MEN who actually are on the low end. They are the ones expected to do most of the physical work, control the ejaculation, and maintain erections in the midst of a lot of physically demanding, not very innately sexual actions. They are often the ones taking drugs to stay hard, and yes, men are also susceptible to chaffing and pain from raw private parts that have been overused on a shoot.

And men in heterosexual porn are, on average, paid less than women. 

Anybody who thinks men are king in straight porn doesn't really know much about how porn is made.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Men in porn are acting just as much as women. In porn it's the MEN who actually are on the low end. They are the ones expected to do most of the physical work, control the ejaculation, and maintain erections in the midst of a lot of physically demanding, not very innately sexual actions. They are often the ones taking drugs to stay hard, and yes, men are also susceptible to chaffing and pain from raw private parts that have been overused on a shoot.
> 
> And men in heterosexual porn are, on average, paid less than women.
> 
> Anybody who thinks men are king in straight porn doesn't really know much about how porn is made.


:iagree:
It is a fact that,
Men usually get the messy end of the stick in porn. 
From auditions to paycheck.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

jaquen said:


> Men in porn are acting just as much as women. In porn it's the MEN who actually are on the low end. They are the ones expected to do most of the physical work, control the ejaculation, and maintain erections in the midst of a lot of physically demanding, not very innately sexual actions. They are often the ones taking drugs to stay hard, and yes, men are also susceptible to chaffing and pain from raw private parts that have been overused on a shoot.
> 
> And men in heterosexual porn are, on average, paid less than women.
> 
> Anybody who thinks men are king in straight porn doesn't really know much about how porn is made.


Counting down until the inevitable, "But men are the producers who make the biggest bucks!" Counter-post in 5...4...3...


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

Porn actresses are usually the ones who make more money because pay is based on how much of a audience you will pull, there are some actors who make the same amount but not many because on the whole porn actors are pretty unattractive and are not the ones people are watching porn for.


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## SelfTweaks (Nov 11, 2012)

Sometimes the people who are offended about porn make me laugh because they overlook the basics of ANY form of media:

It's glamorized entertainment that's geared for a predominately male audience, just like every other facet of television.

You can see it for what it is in wrestling, in sitcoms, and Real Housewives...why not in porn?

People make porn for one reason - to make money and they know two things about their huge male audience that women may not:

1. Men are physically stimulated so they make these movies with the emphasis on huge boobs, loud moaning, and graphic penetration because men are stimulated by what they see.

2. A man's need for sex can mostly be purely to satisfy an urge without any emotional attachment at all. It's just a fact, get used to it.

You may not like it, but you don't have to. There are plenty of people who do who will cough up big bucks to see it as it is. 

It's not a multi-billion dollar industry for nothing.

For that matter so is the romance novel industry.


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## MrsOldNews (Feb 22, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> Never used spit as lube.
> Natural lube = Good Lube.
> 
> My wife's natural lube = Best Lube!


I didn't mean for me silly I meant for hj


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

jaquen said:


> Men in porn are acting just as much as women. In porn it's the MEN who actually are on the low end. They are the ones expected to do most of the physical work, control the ejaculation, and maintain erections in the midst of a lot of physically demanding, not very innately sexual actions. They are often the ones taking drugs to stay hard, and yes, men are also susceptible to chaffing and pain from raw private parts that have been overused on a shoot.
> 
> And men in heterosexual porn are, on average, paid less than women.
> 
> Anybody who thinks men are king in straight porn doesn't really know much about how porn is made.


You're missing the point. You avoid discussing the issues that impact sexual relationships to cherry pick. I have to ask what the state of male sex workers have to do with the fact that porn is made for the audience not the actors. 

The audience is overwhelmingly male and the sex acts presented bring orgasms to most real men but not most real women. 

I am not criticizing men, just stating the obvious. The fact that so many men avoid the obvious is perhaps part of the problem. Are the men who avoid acknowledging the obvious the ones who have a more frustrated sex life? Possibly.

Perhaps the men who think women who are not willing to providing their husbands with orgasms like porn actresses are selfish, boorish and closed minded. 

Perhaps They are more likely to be sexually frustrated and dissatisfied? How many people could endure a frustrating unsatisfactory activity 3 times a week for years?Neither men or women. Sounds bleak to me. Seems we can both solve the problem. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> Your missing the point. You avoid discussing the issues that impact sexual relationships to cherry pick. I have to ask what the state of male sex workers have to do with the fact that porn is made for the audience not the actors.


Trust me when I say the point was not difficult to grasp.

This is a public message board, and within this thread many different aspects of this topic are being discussed. Anyone is free to discuss any aspect of the topic at hand. I chose to address a particular line of discussion that's been happening over the last few pages; namely the question of how much women working in porn are enjoying the acts presented onscreen. In case you missed it, and apparently you did, several people have been commenting on that topic. This leg of the conversation indeed has been about the workers, and not just the audience. That is what I commented on.

You are free to address any other parts of this discussion that interest you. That, however, has nothing to do with me. I will "cherry pick" whatever portions of this topic that I want to discuss.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Fair enough sorry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

SelfTweaks said:


> Sometimes the people who are offended about porn make me laugh because they overlook the basics of ANY form of media:
> 
> It's glamorized entertainment that's geared for a predominately male audience, just like every other facet of television.
> 
> ...


I don't like internet porn because it may adversely affect the normal development of normal sexuality among school aged boys exposed to it. The generation of young men reaching 20 are the first exposed to Internet porn early in their sexual develpement. 

There appears to be an epidemic of men in their 20's who have problems with ED. Exposure to unlimited Internet porn seems to be the culprit. . 

This is distressing to these young men and it takes upwards of 6 months for them to overcome the problem after avoiding porn. Many young men are themselves avoiding porn because they want to avoid this fate. Not all young men have this problem but why take the chance. 

If you have a son or grandson, you might consider the pernicious effect of internet porn on them. I do. There may be nothing I can do about it but it may be in your interest to be less of a champion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Michael A. Brown (Oct 16, 2012)

Some men do watch porn so that they could boost their sex drive.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> I don't like internet porn because it may adversely affect the normal development of normal sexuality among school aged boys exposed to it. The generation of young men reaching 20 are the first exposed to Internet porn early in their sexual develpement.
> 
> There appears to be an epidemic of men in their 20's who have problems with ED. Exposure to unlimited Internet porn seems to be the culprit. .
> 
> ...


This I agree with. Pornography is old as dirt, but the prolific nature of it, thanks to the internet, is having a profound effect on the generations that are exposed to it in excess via the internet. Gone are the days where your porn highlight consisted of a tit mag you pulled from dad's (or mom's) stash, a hastily watched VHS or DVD, or the now seemingly tame late night Skinemax flick. These kids are coming up in a world where hardcore is the norm, and it's basically unlimited. So much so that yes, I do believe porn is shaping the internet generation, in some really profound, never before seen ways.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

east2west said:


> Would it be fair to characterize "porn sex" as male dominant sex? Where the man is mostly in charge of the situation and deciding what and how to do it?


If the man in charge knows next to nothing about female sexuality and he is deciding to do what pleases him it's bad sex for her. 

You mentioned that your experience with your wife characterizes all women. What makes you so sure this is true? 

Have you read anything about female sexuality that supports your belief? 

It is not accurate. Each woman has distinct sexual preferences due to differences in anatomy. 

Did you know that about 70% of women need clitoral stimulation to reach orgasm? 

It takes and average of 40 mins from the start of sex for many women to orgasm? Men take an average of 7 mins from arousal to orgasm. There is a wide range though. 

Sex that is over in 10 mins from start to finish, leaves many woman cold. 

Did you know that the average woman needs an average of 15 mins of foreplay to become aroused? 

Starting a sexual encounter with a bj is not foreplay for the many women. It is for many men and it appears to be common in porn. 

You can research what I wrote if you don't think I am being accurate. Also, I am a woman I know something about them.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

jaquen said:


> This I agree with. Pornography is old as dirt, but the prolific nature of it, thanks to the internet, is having a profound effect on the generations that are exposed to it in excess via the internet. Gone are the days where your porn highlight consisted of a tit mag you pulled from dad's (or mom's) stash, a hastily watched VHS or DVD, or the now seemingly tame late night Skinemax flick. These kids are coming up in a world where hardcore is the norm, and it's basically unlimited. So much so that yes, I do believe porn is shaping the internet generation, in some really profound, never before seen ways.


I really worry about this. It would be better if no young man was effected. I fear that is not the case. 

Young men will eventually control this problem as they get older, i believe. Not on moral grounds but for the harm overindulgent brings.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> Real sex obviously differs because most men do not have 10 inch penises, last around 5 minutes penetratively and can sometimes use a little/a lot of encouragement to get aroused.


Most men in porn don't even have 10 inch penises. That's how incredibly deceptive porn is. Most mainstream porn is produced in a way that maximizes the look of the penis; lenses, angles, lighting, close ups, low body fat levels, and penis pumping are all used to make an already over average penis look even more massive. 

I remember thinking for years that I had an average, if not below average, penis. I didn't grow up taking public showers, or being nude around male family, and I'd never seen another guy's erect penis. All I had were the images from porn, and I didn't even grow up watching much porn at all. In my mind these guys were HUGE, and I couldn't compete. I had insecurities based off how things _appeared_. Then I got older, and two things happened; I lost a lot of weight, and realized that I was, umm, not average at all. And I became well educated about the way porn is made.

And despite my knowledge, of the actual typical porn actor's size, and my own, I still view male penises in porn as somehow being so much bigger than me. The actual facts are irrelevant, because these people are pros at making even the above average look like the astronomical. It's all smoke and mirrors. Kinda like how Tom Cruise seems 6 feet tall on screen.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

This article says it really well for me. And it's very sad that many people consume porn and think it's "normal" or good. 

The Cruel Boredom Of Pornography By Robert Jensen



> The Cruel Boredom Of Pornography
> 
> By Robert Jensen
> 
> ...


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

I would be interested to see a proper statistical study, published in a peer-reviewed journal, that shows that porn is damaging or dangerous. All the credible studies I have seen have shown the opposite.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

*LittleDeer* said:


> This article says it really well for me. And it's very sad that many people consume porn and think it's "normal" or good.
> 
> The Cruel Boredom Of Pornography By Robert Jensen


_Wikipedia: Jensen identifies as a *Christian Radical*.[4]_


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

johnnycomelately said:


> _Wikipedia: Jensen identifies as a *Christian Radical*.[4]_


WRONG. 
Nope not at all, he actually does not identify as a christian radical, faaaaar from. He says in interviews he hates being identified with the Christian lobyists because it that is nothing to do with why he does not support the porn industry.


Moreover just because a christian (which as far as I'm aware he isn't) doesn't automatically mean we should dismiss any information they may have.

But again, I'm not sure who put that link there, but I'm sure it wasn't him.  It's wikepedia.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

Interview with Robert Jensen on pornography (1 of 5) - YouTube

This also fascinating to listen to.

Very interesting. From a males perspective.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

johnnycomelately said:


> I would be interested to see a proper statistical study, published in a peer-reviewed journal, that shows that porn is damaging or dangerous. All the credible studies I have seen have shown the opposite.


Wow really, I've seen the opposite and I've studied this subject in depth. I'd love to see yours? 

I provided a link to the price of pleasure many times, and it shows some studies on there too.

It's very difficult with most studies as, they are not done in the correct fashion.

Most that study the porn industry and those that wish to use porn (so most people) and not feel bad, usually consist of studies done that ask men a series of questions about how pornography has effected them. Of course they are quick to say "I haven't been effected I'm fine" however that's not a great way to do a study. What else would most men (and women) say.

All social media effects us and helps shape us. And pornography is so prolific that it's bound to help shape our sexual identities. I just don't think modern porn can for the most part be viewed as healthy for so many reasons. And I'm very saddened that people put their want for sexual release and desire to use others for sexual gratification above the need to treat other humans with respect. JMO.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> *Something I've also noticed in porn is that men are expected to be turned on by anything a woman does. *


Again, I liked you thoughts on the subject.
I agree with everything except the part where you said that the average man lasts only 5 mins in penetrative sex...

My average is around 15 - 20 mins ?.:scratchhead:

But I digress.
The part highlighted above is also very true in the case of a lot of women. But I don't think porn is to be blamed 100% for that.
Maybe other forms of media? 
My wife had that particular problem early in our marriage and she was totally confused when certain things she did , didn't turn me on instantly.
She took it personally and compared herself to other women she knew from my past.
Thank goodness we were able to overcome it.
I think a lot of couples experience that, because generally men are expected to be " rearing & ready" whenever a woman comes around.
Nothing could be further from the truth, especially in a LTR or marriage.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

*LittleDeer* said:


> Moreover just because a christian (which as far as I'm aware he isn't) doesn't automatically mean we should dismiss any information they may have.


Well, I will take Wikipedia's word for it until he issues a correction. He also publishes work for the Progressive Christian and works for the Third Coast Activist, a radical Christian influenced organisation. He hates being identified as a radical Christian because this, quite rightly, throws his objectivity into doubt.

The reasons why we can dismiss this article are many, his being a radical christian feminist is one. His consituency believes that porn is bad and he plays to that consituency. Secondly, he does not back up his opinions with statistical data, which means they are just his opinions, nothing more. Thirdly he is a journalism professor and therefore this is not his field of expertise.

You can find crank academics that will tell you we have been invaded by Martians, but without any sort of evidence we can just ignore them.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

"Effects of women



Article on women and porn use, how it changes the way they view other women and the empathy they have for other women, and even how they view rape etc.

Awful really.

http://works.bepress.com/john_foubert/7/

On men same thing.


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## SelfTweaks (Nov 11, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> I don't like internet porn because it may adversely affect the normal development of normal sexuality among school aged boys exposed to it. The generation of young men reaching 20 are the first exposed to Internet porn early in their sexual develpement.
> 
> There appears to be an epidemic of men in their 20's who have problems with ED. Exposure to unlimited Internet porn seems to be the culprit. .
> 
> ...


Champion? How did you come up with that assessment in my comment?

You bring up abstract, non-related sexual issues and are trying to validate your point by correlating them with your personal prejudices against porn. I would like you to present any evidence you have that makes any of the correlations you just presented to me.

I never intended to defend the porn industry's effect on children because I assumed this was a forum for adults. I was not aware the originator of this thread was a child discussing the "pernicious" effects internet porn had on them. It seems I need to find the site where adults are discussing the free choices they make in life and the lessons learned from their decisions.

What I was trying to do was simply state that as an adult, if I choose a form of media to engage in, just as i am able to determine that watching sitcoms, wrestling, or reality shows are nothing but entertainment and should NOT be taken as reality...

I should be able to do the same with porn.


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## SelfTweaks (Nov 11, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> Thanks for the comments guys!
> 
> I'll avoid the meta debate about the offensiveness/fantasy of porn and bring it back to a tangential subject that was kind of touched upon:
> 
> ...


Well said. It also proves the point I was originally intending to make. ALL forms of media glamorize, sensationalize, and exploit to the extreme, whether its television, movies, radio, or even the internet.

Why? Because they go where the money is and the money is in a predominately male audience who happens to be visually stimulated.

Why do you think action movies and martial arts movies make so much money? It doesn't have to have a great plot or character development. It just has to have enough visual stimulation (i.e., action scenes) to appeal to the target audience, which happens to be men.

That's where the money is and that's the reason mainstream porn movies are made the way they are. There is a method to the madness and that method unfortunately makes money.

As far as children go, you can never blame the industry because their job is not to raise children. It's up to the parents to educate their children to the realities of how sex, love, and relationships interact. It also wouldn't hurt to monitor and meter what their children are exposed to, and that would include the internet. If more parents would stop letting electronic gadgets 'babysit' their children and take a more active role into administering the development of their lives, I wouldn't be on this rant either. Sorry


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## Open up now let it all go (Sep 20, 2012)

I have no doubt that there's still a lot of abuse and maltreatment occuring in the porn industry. If by any means the actors, man or woman, are subjected to acts that will harm them physically, mentally or will otherwise negatively affect them beyond what they're up for then by all means this should be fought.

But in it's most basic essence - if porn is defined as erotically stimulating material then I don't see what's wrong with it. I don't care whether the actors are enjoying themselves or not - as long as they're ok with doing it. Similarly I don't care whether a stuntman isn't really into his latest stunt as long as he isn't forced to insane stunts that are unproportionally dangerous or something. 

I looked at porn because I wanted to see some hot chick get nailed - it's that simple. If that's not your taste then find something else. There's probably tons of female friendly porn out there - perhaps a bit covered by the significantly greater amount of male-oriented porn - but it has to be there. I have no interest in it - I'll save that for my real relationship (and believe I'm the one that's actually trying to get more of that into out sexlife). But when I'm taking matters into my own hands, so to speak, it's all about me.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

johnnycomelately said:


> Well, I will take Wikipedia's word for it until he issues a correction. He also publishes work for the Progressive Christian and works for the Third Coast Activist, a radical Christian influenced organisation. He hates being identified as a radical Christian because this, quite rightly, throws his objectivity into doubt.
> 
> The reasons why we can dismiss this article are many, his being a radical christian feminist is one. His consituency believes that porn is bad and he plays to that consituency. Secondly, he does not back up his opinions with statistical data, which means they are just his opinions, nothing more. Thirdly he is a journalism professor and therefore this is not his field of expertise.
> 
> You can find crank academics that will tell you we have been invaded by Martians, but without any sort of evidence we can just ignore them.


Radical christian feminist- oxymoron much?:rofl: 

No he's not a radical Christian, however... he is a feminist. *gasp* a man who believes in women's rights. Terrible stuff.

But he knows his stuff and is a university professor, who has a lot of interesting things to say, that do make sense A very smart guy.

It's easy for you to try and discredit with misinformation rather then read and digest the actual content, however hopefully it will ring true for someone else reading with an open mind.
But anyway, a part from that, here are two recent studies for you.





*LittleDeer* said:


> "Effects of women
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

Open up now let it all go said:


> I have no doubt that there's still a lot of abuse and maltreatment occuring in the porn industry. If by any means the actors, man or woman, are subjected to acts that will harm them physically, mentally or will otherwise negatively affect them beyond what they're up for then by all means this should be fought.
> 
> But in it's most basic essence - if porn is defined as erotically stimulating material then I don't see what's wrong with it. I don't care whether the actors are enjoying themselves or not - as long as they're ok with doing it. Similarly I don't care whether a stuntman isn't really into his latest stunt as long as he isn't forced to insane stunts that are unproportionally dangerous or something.
> 
> I looked at porn because I wanted to see some hot chick get nailed - it's that simple. If that's not your taste then find something else. There's probably tons of female friendly porn out there - perhaps a bit covered by the significantly greater amount of male-oriented porn - but it has to be there. I have no interest in it - I'll save that for my real relationship (and believe I'm the one that's actually trying to get more of that into out sexlife). But when I'm taking matters into my own hands, so to speak, it's all about me.


Most porn actresses don't stay in the industry for more then one or two films, because they do find that when they get to a set they are forcefully coerced into sex acts they didn't agree with and often threatened etc, many say they are raped and abused. Very few stay the course and the majority of those are drug addicted.


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## Open up now let it all go (Sep 20, 2012)

Well that's appaling, I know that and I sincerely hope that the porn industry will evolve out of that approach. I really don't believe that porn necessarily requires abuse, rape, drugs and malicious intent as all it should require is a camera and two willing people. Unfortunately there's always going to be people that will go over human lives for their own gain and I think that it's society's plight to boycot their products and go for a better alternative. 

I just hope that these things will be brought to daylight and general attention so that the people that are willing to perform are protected against these issues. I know what kind of meat to buy in the supermarket for a more friendly approach to animals, I know which coffee is put on the shelves for higher prices so that workers in some third world country are getting fair salary, I know that more attention is going to workers in Chinese electronic industries is starting to arise. Where's a similar alternative for porn? I don't know but if there was one - and I could still watch it - I'd gladly pay/support that branch instead of the others. 

But my point is that it's not something inherently evil with porn or any other consumer product that somehow has the blood, sweat and tears of people on them that got sacrificed to market something for a low price. It's the people that decided to exploit it. And partially the fault of the lazy consumer that doesn't want to look for something better.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I may have drifted off topic. This is one example of the what i think the difference between porn sex vs real sex. 

From what i read on this forum, the common practice seems to be that women give bj and hj cold, no warm up or orgasm for them. They are expected to act aroused or enthusiastic though. 

That to me is porn sex. Some men satisfy their partner with oral or manual sex before a bj. Arousal and enthusiasm is natural. That's real sex. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

BTW I read that a woman murdered her husband after reading the book FSOG. He would not do 50 shades of gray sex, what ever that is. Maybe reading romance novels do set up unrealistic expectations. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> I may have drifted off topic.
> 
> *From what i read on this forum, the common practice seems to be that women give bj and hj cold, no warm up or orgasm for them. They are expected to act aroused or enthusiastic though.
> *
> ...


I think that's_ lazy sex_
Any man who approaches a woman like that should be rejected.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

^^ yes. I don't think that men who do this realize that it does impact their sex life over time . It is better to agree to an oral sex session. Oral sex for the woman then oral sex for him. Both to completion. No big deal. 

To me, getting a bj cold makes the practice stand out. Easy to shoot down. Make it part of a sex session difficult to shoot down as a porn act because that is not how bj happen in porn. 

After having an orgasm I will do just about anything (not 3some). I think that true for most women.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Open up now let it all go (Sep 20, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> From what i read on this forum, the common practice seems to be that women give bj and hj cold, no warm up or orgasm for them. They are expected to act aroused or enthusiastic though.


So, what's the problem? It's porn - it's not real sex. It's not meant to be educational, instructive, insightful, or a reflection of 'normal' sex is usually like. If any man decides that porn is an accurate and educational tool to improve their sexlife then he's either really stupid or very poorly informed. If the latter case would occur statistically signficantly then there's a problem and there would have to be better education about what porn is and how it shouldn't be used.



Catherine602 said:


> BTW I read that a woman murdered her husband after reading the book FSOG. He would not do 50 shades of gray sex, what ever that is. Maybe reading romance novels do set up unrealistic expectations.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I really don't get this kind of logic - no offense. How it a romance novel in any way responsible for murder? That man is just insane and if it weren't FSOG it would've been something else. Same goes for almost all rapist/murderers that blames porn for what they've done, many drug addict that lets his addiction get out of hand and faults the alcohol, cocaine, weed or whatever hs on, kids that play violent computer games and go on a spree shooting while the media blames the games etc. etc. etc.

I smoke and I know it's unhealthy and I should quit. But I'm the only one that decides to buy another package. What happened to individual responsibility?


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

*LittleDeer* said:


> This article says it really well for me. And it's very sad that many people consume porn and think it's "normal" or good.
> 
> The Cruel Boredom Of Pornography By Robert Jensen


You sure spend a lot of time talking about a subject you claim to abhor. I think you maybe are more obsessed with pornography than people who actually watch porn.

:scratchhead:


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

No no you misunderstand or I was unclear. The wife killed her husband after reading the novel. She wanted him to do the things she read about in the novel. He refused and she murdered him. 

I mentioned it because many poster on this thread mentioned the influence of romance novels on unrealistic expectations by women. Similar to porn 

I just thought that this is an extreme example of an unrealistic expectations and sense of entitlement.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Open up now let it all go (Sep 20, 2012)

Oh, sorry I misunderstood but it doesn't really chance the situation that it's rather absurd to frame the novel for giving that woman false expectations and consequently murdering her husband. It's of the extremity of Ted Bundy that apparently obsessed over porn before turning his sex-obsession into a real murder/rape drama. There's something inherently very wrong with these people and something is going to inspire them to go over the edge. Could be porn, could be 50 shades of gay, could be the newest brutal heavy metal, could be newest SAW movie, could just come out of the blue. But it's really not the fault of the object.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Interestingly enough, in most cases, it isn't the porn watching husbands that are killing the sex in marriage.

Millions of cold fish, porn-free, sexless wives are murdering their sex lives, and their marriages, by clamming up and stingily siphoning out sex at alarmingly low levels.

You can provide anti-porn links all day, any day. None of that will even begin to change the fact that the roughly 40 million sexless couples in the US are not that way, in the majority of cases, because of men who watch porn.

Funny how you never see the anti-porn TAM brigade pulling out links and articles detailing the most potent detriments to modern American marital sex. Or mention the fact that porn consumption among married men has risen in inverse to the increase of women being socially permitted, and even encouraged, to take the dead fish approach to marriage.

Funny how that works, huh?


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Interestingly enough, in most cases, it isn't the porn watching husbands that are killing the sex in marriage.
> 
> *Millions of cold fish, porn-free, sexless wives are murdering their sex lives, and their marriages, by clamming up and stingily siphoning out sex at alarmingly low levels.*


"Cold Fish " sexless marriages existed long before the mushrooming of the porn industry in the 70's.
In fact, it can be argued that part of he reason the porn industry is such a thriving one , especially in the USA is because of " cold fish" sexless marriages.


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## TheCrunch (Sep 3, 2012)

Thanks to FrenchFry for raising the question of racist stereotyping. Adds yet another reason why parents need to talk to their kids about the porn sex not being real sex. 


Talking to your children/teenagers about Porn?


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Originally Posted by diwali123:
Again they are better actors and the cinematography, lighting and music are better.
Posted via Mobile Device
Some yes, some no.

Don't believe me? I've got two words for you to prove my case: Kristen Stewart. 
[Reply] [!!]


Grayson, in the words of Chris Rock: "I've seen better actin' in Tough Acting Tinactin." 
I don't watch those stupid movies. First I'm not a 13 year old girl and second I hate bad acting and stupid plots about stupid girls whose boyfriends run their lives. 

But anyway....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

*LittleDeer* said:


> But he knows his stuff and is a university professor, who has a lot of interesting things to say, that do make sense A very smart guy.


And yet can't find any statistical analysis to back up his subjective opinions or get his article published in a respectable, peer-reviewed journal. 

I have posted this article before, but you said that Scientific American had a vested interest in porn production. The Sunny Side of Smut: Scientific American

You still have not been able to come up with a single statistical study, that has passed the peer-review process, to back up your claims. Why?


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

jaquen said:


> Interestingly enough, in most cases, it isn't the porn watching husbands that are killing the sex in marriage.
> 
> Millions of cold fish, porn-free, sexless wives are murdering their sex lives, and their marriages, by clamming up and stingily siphoning out sex at alarmingly low levels.
> 
> ...


Just want to premise this with - I don't think I will ever see things the way you do. Just admitting my mind is closed.

But have you considered that the rise of Internet porn and the increased sexual expectations on women may kill marital sexual intimacy rather than the other way around?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

diwali123 said:


> Originally Posted by diwali123:
> [Reply] [!!]
> 
> 
> ...


Me either. Somehow, she manages to get gigs aside from the Twilight drek.

Meanwhile, as an example, while I've not seen any of her full-on porn performances, based on her HBO specials I'd say that Katie Morgan can act rings around box office darling Stewart. And is capable of more than one facial expression.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> Just want to premise this with - I don't think I will ever see things the way you do. Just admitting my mind is closed.
> 
> But have you considered that the rise of Internet porn and the increased sexual expectations on women may kill marital sexual intimacy rather than the other way around?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Chicken or egg territory. As noted upthread, lack of marital intimacy existed before easy access to porn. But if an increase in one has led to an increase in the other, which was the first domino to fall? Or is it an infinite Moebius loop?

I feel sorry for these alleged people who have unrealistic expectations of sex based on porn. It must also be baffling for them when they crack a joke and there's no laugh track like on sitcoms.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> BTW I read that a woman murdered her husband after reading the book FSOG. He would not do 50 shades of gray sex, what ever that is. Maybe reading romance novels do set up unrealistic expectations.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sounds like yet another false internet myth. I couldn't find any news reports of such an event.

Got a cite?

I read those books. They almost made me want to gouge my eyes out, or maybe kill the author, but I didn't feel any other violent urges.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

jaharthur said:


> Sounds like yet another false internet myth. I couldn't find any news reports of such an event.
> 
> Got a cite?
> 
> I read those books. They almost made me want to gouge my eyes out, or maybe kill the author, but I didn't feel any other violent urges.


I'm reminded of the late Sam Kinison's bit about Charles Manson being "influenced" by the Beatles' music, and concluding that Manson's just a psycho who would've gotten the same "message" from the Monkees.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

*LittleDeer* said:


> Radical christian feminist- oxymoron much?:rofl:


No, actually it's not. Plenty of Christians are feminist. My sister loves Christ with all she's got, and she's very much a proud, card carrying feminist.



*LittleDeer* said:


> Most porn actresses don't stay in the industry for more then one or two films, because they do find that when they get to a set they are forcefully coerced into sex acts they didn't agree with and often threatened etc, many say they are raped and abused. Very few stay the course and the majority of those are drug addicted.


And your point is? Do you know how many kids are molested in the entertainment business? Did that stop you from taking your kids to see Disney fare and the like?

Do you know how many animals suffer needlessly to provide us with a large wealth of everyday products and food stuffs we enjoy? Are you growing your own livestock, and making your own basic necessities from scratch?

Do you realize that almost all affordable clothing in the USA is made in sweat shops with people who are horrendously underpaid, often mistreated, and subjected to work conditions that are egregious and unethical? Do you grow your own cotton, strip it, process it, and use the byproduct to sue clothes for you kids and family?

Your moral high horse, and righteous indignation over the treatment of actresses in porn might be a little tough to sustain if you took real inventory of your everyday life and weeded out the MANY products that contribute to your comfort at the severe, and unfortunate expense of other human beings and animals.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

My wife read all 3 FSOG books. Loved them. But claims she doesn't want any part of the spanking thing. I think she's FOS. Last night she wanted a back rub. We were in the living room watching TV. Kids were in bed. So she lays down across my lap sideways and asks for a backrub. A backrub??? Yet she's laying over my lap in the classic spanking position. Ya, I'll show you backrub.

 she still claims she's not into spanking. But she sure wasn't struggling much.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> Just want to premise this with - I don't think I will ever see things the way you do. Just admitting my mind is closed.
> 
> But have you considered that the rise of Internet porn and the increased sexual expectations on women may kill marital sexual intimacy rather than the other way around?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So what was the excuse for the few hundred years, or so, prior to the proliferation and mass consumption of internet porn? Because the whole "wives don't put out" mantra sure didn't start with the internet age.

It seems all online porn did was give plenty of men (and women) a sexual outlet that is all too often lacking in marriage.


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## Omgitsjoe (Oct 1, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> My wife read all 3 FSOG books. Loved them. But claims she doesn't want any part of the spanking thing. I think she's FOS. Last night she wanted a back rub. We were in the living room watching TV. Kids were in bed. So she lays down across my lap sideways and asks for a backrub. A backrub??? Yet she's laying over my lap in the classic spanking position. Ya, I'll show you backrub.
> 
> she still claims she's not into spanking. But she sure wasn't struggling much.


Hmmmm ................ makes one wonder huh ?? Well perhaps she's just not comfortable admitting that she wants to try " spanking " with it's taboo perception so understandable !?!?

However with such a strong hint like laying over your lap for a backrub ............. should've just given her a couple of love taps on the booty to see her reaction ??? I'd offer another backrub sometime soon just to see where this goes !!!??? Good luck and do update us


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Hmm, perhaps my post was not clear. She got her spanking. No doubt about it. There was NO backrubing. You can't lay over my lap like that and not expect to get spanked. lol


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> My wife read all 3 FSOG books. Loved them. But claims she doesn't want any part of the spanking thing. I think she's FOS. Last night she wanted a back rub. We were in the living room watching TV. Kids were in bed. So she lays down across my lap sideways and asks for a backrub. A backrub??? Yet she's laying over my lap in the classic spanking position. Ya, I'll show you backrub.
> 
> she still claims she's not into spanking. But she sure wasn't struggling much.


Don't some who enjoy spanking like it in the context of pretending they don't like it? That the spanking is sort of uninvited, and "forced" on them?

Maybe she doesn't want to have a discussion about spanking. Maybe she just wants you to spank her spontaneously. 

*Edit:* Yup! Looks like you both got what you came for!


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

johnnycomelately said:


> And yet can't find any statistical analysis to back up his subjective opinions or get his article published in a respectable, peer-reviewed journal.
> 
> I have posted this article before, but you said that Scientific American had a vested interest in porn production. The Sunny Side of Smut: Scientific American
> 
> You still have not been able to come up with a single statistical study, that has passed the peer-review process, to back up your claims. Why?


The two studies I posted earlier are peer reviewed. But umm thanks.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

jaquen said:


> No, actually it's not. Plenty of Christians are feminist. My sister loves Christ with all she's got, and she's very much a proud, card carrying feminist.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I love these kinds of posts I really do. :smthumbup:

I actually do care about a myriad of issues and do try to stand by my principles, for example all ways try to eat ethical chocolate and I don't buy new diamonds, I don't buy products with palm oil in them, and yes even try to buy ethical clothing and so on. 

I refuse to bury my head in the sand, just because it suits me. 

You however will continue to make excuses and do whatever you feel like doing at the expense of others. 

I certainly won't get my next orgasm exploiting people. There are other much more intimate and fun ways to do that, that involves having actual sex with someone I love and value.


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## coupdegrace (Oct 15, 2012)

I watch porn occasionally, and the only complaint my wife has (aside from not wanting to try anal) is my stamina. I try to make sex last as long as I can, which is usually between 45 minutes to an hour. Sometimes, my wife will tell me, "Just cum already. Let it go!" She told me that after she cums, she gets sore and raw, so she wants to cum at the same time, which is unrealistic. Not sure if anyone in this forum experiences this.

Regarding FSOG, I bought the books for my wife as she wanted to know what all the hub-bub was about. She enjoyed them, but didn't try to incorporate anything from the books into our sex life.

Back to porn, I went to AEE in Vegas and got to meet all my favorite stars, including Jenna Haze. I was stoked! Too bad she retired.


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## Omgitsjoe (Oct 1, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Hmm, perhaps my post was not clear. She got her spanking. No doubt about it. There was NO backrubing. You can't lay over my lap like that and not expect to get spanked. lol


My bad !!! Good to hear that you gave her what she was hoping for ?? Now if only my wife who also read the 3 fsog books would lay on my lap ahem ahem  !!!!!?????


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

jaharthur said:


> Sounds like yet another false internet myth. I couldn't find any news reports of such an event.
> 
> Got a cite?
> 
> I read those books. They almost made me want to gouge my eyes out, or maybe kill the author, but I didn't feel any other violent urges.


I'm embarrassed she divorced him not murder. . My dyslexia gets me in serious trouble sometimes. Here a link to the New York Daily News. http://m.nydailynews.com/1.1200300
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

*LittleDeer* said:


> I love these kinds of posts I really do. :smthumbup:
> 
> I actually do care about a myriad of issues and do try to stand by my principles, for example all ways try to eat ethical chocolate and I don't buy new diamonds, I don't buy products with palm oil in them, and yes even try to buy ethical clothing and so on.
> 
> ...


I think you might have missed a great view of the forest thanks to those pesky trees.

I believe the point jaquen was trying to make (and he can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) was that avoiding an entire industry or branding the entire industry as unacceptable because there are poor conditions or abuses by some producers/manufacturers is going a bit overboard. Has anyone remotely suggested that all porn productions are all rainbows, lollipops and sunshine? I didn't see anyone making that claim. I don't make that claim about ANY industry. So, if I want to avoid all industries that might have reprehensible conditions for a portion of their workforce...well, I'd be sitting naked in the wilderness hoping to catch animals bare-handed for sustenance.



> I certainly won't get my next orgasm exploiting people. There are other much more intimate and fun ways to do that, that involves having actual sex with someone I love and value.


Assuming, for the moment, that by "exploiting people" you're again tarring an entire industry with a single brush, I must ask why, pray tell, you appear to assume that viewing porn precludes "actual sex with someone [you] love and value?"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

*LittleDeer* said:


> I love these kinds of posts I really do. :smthumbup:
> 
> I actually do care about a myriad of issues and do try to stand by my principles, for example all ways try to eat ethical chocolate and I don't buy new diamonds, I don't buy products with palm oil in them, and yes even try to buy ethical clothing and so on.
> 
> ...


You seriously believe that you "trying" to buy some "ethical" chocolate, old diamonds, and avoiding palm oil makes a difference? Do you realize that the very keys you're typing on likely were manufactured on the back of some underpaid, overseas worker? The basic appliances in your home? The toilet tissue you use to wipe your butt?

This entire country runs on low cost products produced cheaply, and at the expense of the less fortunate. The United States is built on the backs of theft, genocide, slavery, indentured servitude, and overtaxed, underpaid workers. That's how it started, and that's how it continues to exist in such enormous prosperity. Will you be revoking your citizenship in protect soon? 

But sure, your "ethical" chocolate makes up for it. Whatever you need to believe.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

jaquen said:


> So what was the excuse for the few hundred years, or so, prior to the proliferation and mass consumption of internet porn? Because the whole "wives don't put out" mantra sure didn't start with the internet age.
> 
> It seems all online porn did was give plenty of men (and women) a sexual outlet that is all too often lacking in marriage.


Maybe wives did not "put out" as you say because they got no pleasure out of sex. Not their husbands fault, because up until about 15 yrs ago, female sexual response was thought to be like men. Women who did not orgasm with penetration were labeled frigid. Turns out that 70% cannot orgasm from penetration. Who knew.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

*LittleDeer* said:


> The two studies I posted earlier are peer reviewed. But umm thanks.


No they aren't. They are not based on statistical studies and they weren't published in peer-reviewed journals.

You are scrambling around trying to dig up evidence to support your prejudice and you have failed to come up with anything credible. That is because there isn't any. 

The wide availability of internet pornography has coincided with a reduction in violence against women and an unprecedented rise in women's rights. How do you explain that if porn causes what you claim it does?


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Johnnycomelately and LittleDeer,

I think both of you should first separate what type of porn you guys are arguing about.
There's mainstream porn, or what I call " DVD " porn, and then there's internet porn.

Mainstream porn consists mainly of paid actors, exploitation and so forth included.
Internet porn is an entirely different thing from what I know.
There are interactive webcam shows, where two people interact with each other performing sexual acts. This is paid stuff.
There are sex forums where people join depending on their kink and exchange ideas, experiences,erotic videos and photos of themselves etc.
There are also females who have their own, personal websites where men pay them money to view them.
Then there is amateur porn sites where people can upload pics and vids of themselves performing sex acts FOR FREE.

This list is by no means an exhaustive list.
But the facts are that internet porn is way bigger than mainstream porn and mostly FREE. The danger of internet porn , beside the obvious addiction, is the scamming and identity theft through credit card fraud.
A lot of men have been victims.

So the argument of exploitation of people [ women ] in porn is a legitimate one, but it applies to a very small section of the porn industry IMO.


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## Open up now let it all go (Sep 20, 2012)

*LittleDeer* said:


> I actually do care about a myriad of issues and do try to stand by my principles, for example all ways try to eat ethical chocolate and I don't buy new diamonds, I don't buy products with palm oil in them, and yes even try to buy ethical clothing and so on.
> 
> I refuse to bury my head in the sand, just because it suits me.
> 
> You however will continue to make excuses and do whatever you feel like doing at the expense of others.


I admire that you put thought into what you buy with regards for how it was produced and your dedication to choose for a product that has not been produced at the cost of exploitation in a level that deems unacceptable to you. But why can't you understand that porn is nothing more than sex on camera like coffee is coffee, chocolate is chocolate and that all of these products don't have to be produced by exploiting people financially, physically or otherwise? I get that people don't need porn but I think it's a step further to conclude that nobody should use porn because people are getting exploited in the industry. It's a similar approach into choosing the right provider instead of demonizing the product itself.


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> I'm embarrassed she divorced him not murder. . My dyslexia gets me in serious trouble sometimes. Here a link to the New York Daily News. Fifty Shades of Grey leads woman to divorce her husband - NY Daily News
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok, but divorce is a long way from murder!

In most cases.


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

johnnycomelately said:


> No they aren't. They are not based on statistical studies and they weren't published in peer-reviewed journals.
> 
> You are scrambling around trying to dig up evidence to support your prejudice and you have failed to come up with anything credible. That is because there isn't any.
> 
> The wide availability of internet pornography has coincided with a reduction in violence against women and an unprecedented rise in women's rights. How do you explain that if porn causes what you claim it does?


Both the referenced articles are by the same guy, John Foubert. His credentials are so-so at best. His CV claims the articles were peer-reviewed.

http://works.bepress.com/john_foubert/cv.pdf

I can't find anything about the journals in which they were published, but I'm pretty sure they aren't the equivalent of the New England Journal of Medicine. They look more like places where people with the same ax to grind gather to approve each other's articles, thus allowing them to say "peer reviewed."

I actually read the articles (nasty habit of mine), so I can say that they do include *some *statistical analyses. However, the studies contain numerous statistical flaws. For example, by using voluntarily-returned questionnaires, the study has enormous built-in selection bias. It is NOT a valid random selection. Nothing was done to detect whether the answers provided were accurate. The surveys were confined to one type of pornography (violent, sadomasochistic, and rape) without any controls for frequency of viewing or media. The surveys were taken at one university, and responses were sought only from sorority and fraternity members.

On top of all of these flaws, the studies make no distinction between correlation and causation. Let me give one example. One of the surveys talks about whether exposure to violent pornography made women more likely to accept sexual violence, and concludes that there is a correlation. But anyone who has taken Statistics 101 knows that _*correlation does not prove causation*_. It could be that the women who view violent pornography were highly likely to have been abused as children, and that it's the childhood sexual abuse that caused BOTH the attraction to violent pornography AND the acceptance of sexual violence as adults. A well-designed study attempts to control for the other variables that may explain the result being observed.

For all these reasons I don't find this author's articles persuasive. Just to stir the pot, though, let me provide one quote from him:

"Research has shown a positive
correlation between women’s acceptance of
pornography and their psychological well-being
(Carroll et al., 2008)."

Here are the full-text references if anybody cares to read them:

http://works.bepress.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1009&context=john_foubert

http://works.bepress.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1007&context=john_foubert


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## east2west (Oct 19, 2012)

Sorry I somehow didn't see this post before.



Catherine602 said:


> If the man in charge knows next to nothing about female sexuality and he is deciding to do what pleases him it's bad sex for her.
> 
> You mentioned that your experience with your wife characterizes all women. What makes you so sure this is true?


Did I say that? Really? Where? That would be a pretty reckless statement no?



> Have you read anything about female sexuality that supports your belief?
> 
> It is not accurate. Each woman has distinct sexual preferences due to differences in anatomy.


Yes everyone is different. I don't really care what "normal" is either. As far as I can tell "normal" sex is actually pretty dismal. The only person that matters to me is my partner. But I can appreciate that watching porn establishes norms in people's minds that may differ from reality. Like people who join the marines and find out that real war is not like playing call of duty on the xbox.



> Did you know that about 70% of women need clitoral stimulation to reach orgasm?


I've read that. But it doesn't matter much to me since I'll do whatever it takes to get her off. That's my job.



> It takes and average of 40 mins from the start of sex for many women to orgasm? Men take an average of 7 mins from arousal to orgasm. There is a wide range though.
> 
> Sex that is over in 10 mins from start to finish, leaves many woman cold.
> 
> Did you know that the average woman needs an average of 15 mins of foreplay to become aroused?


So I guess that's one way that porn is more realistic than real sex! You couldn't sell a 7 minute dvd. But I do have some doubt about this type of statistic. Doesn't the amount of time it takes to reach orgasm depend heavily on the technique of their partner and other factors? I think you would have to pair one man with a random sample of twenty or more women to do an accurate measurement of such things.



> Starting a sexual encounter with a bj is not foreplay for the many women. It is for many men and it appears to be common in porn.


That is fair.



> You can research what I wrote if you don't think I am being accurate. Also, I am a woman I know something about them.


I don't know, I'm a man but I sure as heck don't speak for all of them or claim to know everything about manhood.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

jaharthur said:


> Ok, but divorce is a long way from murder!
> 
> In most cases.


He he

Some people divorce to avoid murder.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

WorkingOnMe said:


> My wife read all 3 FSOG books. Loved them. But claims she doesn't want any part of the spanking thing. I think she's FOS. Last night she wanted a back rub. We were in the living room watching TV. Kids were in bed. So she lays down across my lap sideways and asks for a backrub. A backrub??? Yet she's laying over my lap in the classic spanking position. Ya, I'll show you backrub.
> 
> she still claims she's not into spanking. But she sure wasn't struggling much.


Me thinks she wants a spanking. 

I got an idea - why don't you try a light tap and a rub on her butt. Tell her she has a nice one - made for spanking. If she doesn't jump up you're golden. :smthumbup:


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

Open up now let it all go said:


> I admire that you put thought into what you buy with regards for how it was produced and your dedication to choose for a product that has not been produced at the cost of exploitation in a level that deems unacceptable to you. But why can't you understand that porn is nothing more than sex on camera like coffee is coffee, chocolate is chocolate and that all of these products don't have to be produced by exploiting people financially, physically or otherwise? I get that people don't need porn but I think it's a step further to conclude that nobody should use porn because people are getting exploited in the industry. It's a similar approach into choosing the right provider instead of demonizing the product itself.


Thank you for your post.

The problem is almost no one does care about how porn is produced. It is overall a terrible industry. Even women who are still in the business and make huge money off of it (only a few) like Jenna Jameson will say that the industry is bad news, that women are treated like trash. 

I have issue with most porn, because of the context it's usually made in, and that is a culture that degrades women. It is women who are called awful names and increasingly roughed up in porn etc

I also believe that a couple should be focusing on each other, and that society is so saturated with porn that we seem to believe it's our right to use other people for our sexual gratification. Sending the message that women are there for the sexual gratification of men and that one women can never be enough for one man. It also interfears with long term couple bonding, and reduces the amount of oxytocin we produce with each each other, therefore reducing the bond in marriages. 

I believe couples should be getting there sexual needs met from each other, and it's my personal opinion if you are having lots of sex and feel the need to turn to porn that there is a problem. Likewise if you aren't having sex and feel the need to turn to porn you also have a massive problem, and need to woman or man up and do something drastic to get your relationship back on track, and porn isn't it.

And again porn does lead to unrealistic expectations and less empathy for others. I have read extensively on this issue and I just can't see how it helps the human race.

Here are some interesting stats
http://www.discernement.com/fichs/10141.pdf


Lastly the very fact alone that every single day on this site we see men and women coming in asking for help because they have been hurt by porn use in their marriage, is alarming and sadly many people are dismissive of the issue and the way it makes many women (and some men) feel, because they like it and want to keep using it. 

If something in my marriage made my husband feel badly, lowered his self image or self esteem and made him feel he wasn't enough for me, I would stop doing it. I would never want to make him feel that way. Husbands and wives are supposed to care about what they are doing and how it effects their spouse, not be dismissed.


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## east2west (Oct 19, 2012)

*LittleDeer* said:


> It also interfears with long term couple bonding, and reduces the amount of oxytocin we produce with each each other, therefore reducing the bond in marriages.


Say What? Gotta cite for that one?


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

*LittleDeer* said:


> Here are some interesting stats
> http://www.discernement.com/fichs/10141.pdf


That's a product of a religiously-oriented company that sells internet filter software to block porn. I'd take it with a salt shaker of salt.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

*LittleDeer* said:


> I believe couples should be getting there sexual needs met from each other


How any couple gets their needs met is really none of your business. You seem to be taking an almost obsessive interest in other people's sex lives, even the ones who are having great sex, regardless of porn.

How is your sex life?



*LittleDeer* said:


> and it's my personal opinion if you are having lots of sex and feel the need to turn to porn that there is a problem.


And that problem is what exactly? Lots of sex, satisfied partners, what in the world does the presence of porn matter?


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

People who care about the exploitation of porn actresses don't always have the same concern about the exploitation of diamond workers, or sweatshop workers for fashionable clothes lines, or factory workers for fancy Apple products. 

That's very odd, isn't it?


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

jaquen said:


> How any couple gets their needs met is really none of your business. You seem to be taking an almost obsessive interest in other people's sex lives, even the ones who are having great sex, regardless of porn.
> 
> How is your sex life?
> 
> ...


I could say you seem to be taking an obsessive interest in standing up for the porn industry. 

I personally think my sex life is awesome. My fiancé reads here and occasionally posts and he seems pretty happy too. Mind you we are very sexual, lots of flirting and sex and discussing and acting out fantasies etc. it's very important to both of us that our sexual needs are met. 

Thank you for asking.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

BTW, I don't mean to imply that *littledeer* in particular doesn't care about child workers or sweatshop workers or diamond miners being exploited. 
I just mean, in real life, women who I meet who complain about "exploitation" generally show little concern for other forms of exploitation with far graver consequences. 
And I think that's because the 'exploitation' thing often (though not always) is a rationalization for the sexual jealousy that really motivates the 'concern.'


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

*LittleDeer* said:


> Here are some interesting stats
> http://www.discernement.com/fichs/10141.pdf


Covenant Eyes makes money out of filtering internet access. Using their document as reliable evidence is like using stats from Philip Morris in an argument about the dangers of nicotine. You still haven't come up with any reliable evidence to support your claims.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

*LittleDeer* said:


> Thank you for your post.
> 
> The problem is almost no one does care about how porn is produced. It is overall a terrible industry. Even women who are still in the business and make huge money off of it (only a few) like Jenna Jameson will say that the industry is bad news, that women are treated like trash.
> 
> I have issue with most porn, because of the context it's usually made in, and that is a culture that degrades women. It is women who are called awful names and increasingly roughed up in porn etc


I don't watch porn like that. If there is abuse in an industry the answer is to apply the law, not prohibit the industry. Prohibition doesn't work. If we are less prudish about porn and bring it into the mainstream it can be better controlled. 



*LittleDeer* said:


> It also interfears with long term couple bonding, and reduces the amount of oxytocin we produce with each each other, therefore reducing the bond in marriages.


This is simply a fabrication. 



*LittleDeer* said:


> I believe couples should be getting there sexual needs met from each other,


So the LD partner should be forced to 'meet the needs' of the HD partner?


*LittleDeer* said:


> And again porn does lead to unrealistic expectations and less empathy for others.


I have quoted peer-reviewed, statistical analysis which shows this is false, you chose to ignore it. Despite obviously trying very hard, you have not come up with a single shred of peer-reviewed, journal-published statistical analysis to back up your claims. 



*LittleDeer* said:


> If something in my marriage made my husband feel badly, lowered his self image or self esteem and made him feel he wasn't enough for me, I would stop doing it.


So, if a husband feels bad and has his self-esteem lowered by his wife earning more than he does (many men feel this way) should she give up work? Many men also feel 'badly' that their wives talk to men. Should they stop doing that too? 

If the request is not reasonable, and the evidence shows that it is not, and the partner didn't mention their objection to porn before they got married then the person has every right to view porn.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

*LittleDeer* said:


> The problem is almost no one does care about how porn is produced. It is overall a terrible industry. Even women who are still in the business and make huge money off of it (only a few) like Jenna Jameson will say that the industry is bad news, that women are treated like trash.


Now, I think Jenna's great. She's got a good business sense and has always seemed to have a solid, realistic view of herself and her business. When I met her briefly many years ago, she was very personable and had a great sense of humor. That said...

What she has to say about the industry seems to depend upon her mood and the venue. For example, in her autobiography, she does make remarks like you characterize here. Meanwhile, for example, when appearing on Shatner's Raw Nerve in an interview done in conjunction with that selfsame autobiography...she had nothing bad to say about the industry at all. Further still, on an episode of HBO's Pornicopia: Going Down in the Valley, she seemed fairly neutral, discussing the business from her own position as a producer. Which then begs the question...if she thinks the industry is bad news and women are treated like trash, is she also inferring that, in her own role as a producer, her company is bad news and treats women like trash?

Jenna's almost certainly the most mainstreamed of all porn stars, but I think her reliability as a source on the conditions within the industry can be called into question. 



> I also believe that a couple should be focusing on each other, and that society is so saturated with porn that we seem to believe it's our right to use other people for our sexual gratification. Sending the message that women are there for the sexual gratification of men and that one women can never be enough for one man. It also interfears with long term couple bonding, and reduces the amount of oxytocin we produce with each each other, therefore reducing the bond in marriages.


And yet, there are those of us (and, I daresay, this is the case for most viewers of porn) who are capable of focusing on their partners while still enjoying the entertainment value of watching people we find attractive performing one of the most arousing and beautiful acts under the sun, together or separately.




> And again porn does lead to unrealistic expectations and less empathy for others. I have read extensively on this issue and I just can't see how it helps the human race.


And, again, I disagree. I believe that, just as with any other form of entertainment, the vast majority is able to understand that porn and reality are no more one and the same than the episode of CSI I watched tonight.



> Lastly the very fact alone that every single day on this site we see men and women coming in asking for help because they have been hurt by porn use in their marriage, is alarming and sadly many people are dismissive of the issue and the way it makes many women (and some men) feel, because they like it and want to keep using it.


As a wise man once said, you'll find many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view. Where you see the porn itself in these situations as being the source of the problem, I'd say that the problem stems from one (or both) of the partners. It's not the porn itself that is hurting one partner...it's their spouse's actions. 



> If something in my marriage made my husband feel badly, lowered his self image or self esteem and made him feel he wasn't enough for me, I would stop doing it. I would never want to make him feel that way. Husbands and wives are supposed to care about what they are doing and how it effects their spouse, not be dismissed.


This, you'll get no real argument from me about. Because this is an entirely different matter. It is important to note, however, that "something making your husband feel badly" does not mean that "something" is, in and of itself, bad or harmful.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

There's a fabulously hilarious book called "Once More With Feeling" about a British man and woman who decide to make a professional porn film. Once More, With Feeling: How we tried to make the greatest porn film ever: Amazon.co.uk: Victoria Coren, Charlie Skelton: Books

Lots of good and bad about the porn industry there.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

*LittleDeer* said:


> I could say you seem to be taking an obsessive interest in standing up for the porn industry.


You do _a lot_ of projecting on this topic. I would love for you to produce even a single post from me on TAM where I took a stance in favor of the porn industry.

I'm a patient man. I'll wait...



*LittleDeer* said:


> I personally think my sex life is awesome. My fiancé reads here and occasionally posts and he seems pretty happy too. Mind you we are very sexual, lots of flirting and sex and discussing and acting out fantasies etc. it's very important to both of us that our sexual needs are met.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Good, great. And do you realize that lots of the rest of us, who do watch porn to varying degrees, likewise have satisfying, exiting, and mutually beneficial sex lives?


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## Open up now let it all go (Sep 20, 2012)

*LittleDeer* said:


> The problem is almost no one does care about how porn is produced. It is overall a terrible industry. I have issue with most porn, because of the context it's usually made in, and that is a culture that degrades women. It is women who are called awful names and increasingly roughed up in porn etc


I suppose there's a point in here - I'm not sure how I would feel about a cinematic genre that specifically focussed on degrading people based on religion or race so I guess gender is the same playing field. But I do think somewhere deep down it's related to simple submissive kind of sex - but then pretty much spiralled out of control. And by that analogy - where are you going to put the limit? What can and can't be put on screen and how much do we value freedom of expression?

I myself, and tons of other people (both genders) that I have see posting on this board, have expressed their enjoyment from partaking in submissive style sex now and then. What if we film it and put it on the internet? Is it somehow from "acting out fantasies" into a objectionable thing that degrades people? Just because it's put on film? 

If I continue that line of thought to the porn industry - why is it any of our business if others decide to do this through a business type arrangement and start a porn production company? Now take in mind that I am concerned about how porn is produced. That means that I think that people that choose to partake in porn shouldn't be driven against their will to perform act that they're uncomfortable with, there shouldn't be drug use to put performers in a more vulnerable, dependent position, no taking advantage of people with a sex-abuse history, good care of all sorts of health issues etc. etc. But if people want to call each other names and perform some kind of kinky sex act then who the hell am I to say it's wrong or right when we don't care when this happens between two people as some part of a freaky roleplay or whatever?



*LittleDeer* said:


> Lastly the very fact alone that every single day on this site we see men and women coming in asking for help because they have been hurt by porn use in their marriage, is alarming and sadly many people are dismissive of the issue and the way it makes many women (and some men) feel, because they like it and want to keep using it.
> 
> If something in my marriage made my husband feel badly, lowered his self image or self esteem and made him feel he wasn't enough for me, I would stop doing it. I would never want to make him feel that way. Husbands and wives are supposed to care about what they are doing and how it effects their spouse, not be dismissed.


Self-esteem and insecurity issues can be rather devastating and I do agree that as a partner you should care when your partner is suffering from it. I understand that my girlfriend feels insecure when I oggle naked women at the internet and to that extent I stopped watching porn so she at least realizes that I take her issues serious. But what you're saying is that insecurity is some sort of free pass to control whatever your partner can't and cannot do - excused by the fact that you do it out of free will to please your partner. If it's porn that's one thing - but it also applies to a lot of other aspects.

On the Men's Clubhouse some guy posted an extreme example of this style of using insecurity to destructively invade your partners lifestyle:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/59896-she-makes-me-cry.html

It's an extreme example of handling insecurity issues extremely one-sided. It's supposed to come from two sides. Me and my girlfriend both try to contribute to our specific problem: I currently have stopped watching porn to give my gf time evaluate her feelings and not hurt her self-esteem and visa versa when it does happen that I can't resist the temptation my gf isn't going to be a ***** about it and make me feel even more crappier. I personally believe that the large majority of all the porn complaints we see on here and IRL are due to partners not working together: The porn user doesn't care, doesn't want to be honest or is afraid to tell the truth, the other partner doesn't want to understand, uses their anger/jealousy to put their partner down which in turn feels defeated and much more easily tempted to use porn again. It's a very vicious cycle and I believe that scapegoating porn is not a good approach to mask this what is actually nothing more than a very bad misunderstanding between partners.

I can give up things for my girlfriend. But in the past my girlfriend even became jealous of my circle of friends due to her depression and lack of friends at that time. What, am I supposed to give up my friends so that we can both be miserable and alone? Insecurity should never be so easily used to justify all sorts of demands. There's always two sides to a story.[/quote]



*LittleDeer* said:


> I also believe that a couple should be focusing on each other, and that society is so saturated with porn that we seem to believe it's our right to use other people for our sexual gratification. Sending the message that women are there for the sexual gratification of men and that one women can never be enough for one man. It also interfears with long term couple bonding, and reduces the amount of oxytocin we produce with each each other, therefore reducing the bond in marriages.
> 
> I believe couples should be getting there sexual needs met from each other, and it's my personal opinion if you are having lots of sex and feel the need to turn to porn that there is a problem. Likewise if you aren't having sex and feel the need to turn to porn you also have a massive problem, and need to woman or man up and do something drastic to get your relationship back on track, and porn isn't it.


This more a personal issue than anything but that's okay. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion - but I get a feeling that your way of thinking is the way everybody should base their relationship on. I apologize if I'm wrong in that assumption but that's just the feeling it gives.

We're averaging around 1 times sex/week and frankly that's just her drive can I can't force her to increase her drive. I don't use porn in between - I want to but that's a different story - but I definitely need that physical release more often than once a week. I'm certainly not going to abuse my gf by forcing her to have sex or watching me masturbate or whatever freaky ways you can enforce that total dedication to each other. I'd rather be single than steer my relationship in that direction. I'm glad that my gf does agree with this and if she didn't - then I think we wouldn't be together for very long. Giving up porn is one thing - trying to succumb completely to the LD partner just isn't for me. If it is for you - then that's fine and I'm not going to tell you you're wrong.


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## Praying4Miracle (Nov 14, 2012)

I tell my husband that watching porn and expecting me to be like those porn stars in bed is about as unrealistic and unfair as me watching a romantic movie and expecting him to be as romantic as the guys in the movie. Nice in theory but practically just a fantasy.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Open up now let it all go said:


> But what you're saying is that insecurity is some sort of free pass to control whatever your partner can't and cannot do -


That's an enormous problem in real life, and is reflected very well here on TAM. A lot of people seem to believe that being insecure truly gives them an open ended pass to stifle their partner's actions, indefinitely. So instead of the insecure parties working to remedy those problems, they'd rather create a false world where their spouses just don't do anything at all to aggravate their self esteem issues. That's just putting a band-aid on a gunshot wound.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Praying4Miracle said:


> I tell my husband that watching porn and expecting me to be like those porn stars in bed is about as unrealistic and unfair as me watching a romantic movie and expecting him to be as romantic as the guys in the movie. Nice in theory but practically just a fantasy.


It's not hard being as romantic as the guys in the films. I've seen my fair share of romances and I know I've got a lot of those fictional dudes matched in the romance department when it comes to loving gestures. 

It's just that the romances are two hour movies, give or take. So they don't show you the inbetween moments, the time and space in between gestures.


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## Know_Buddy (Mar 13, 2012)

*LittleDeer* said:


> I have issue with most porn, because of the context it's usually made in, and that is a culture that degrades women. It is women who are called awful names and increasingly roughed up in porn etc


so you think SOME porn is ok?


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## FrustratedInBama (Nov 14, 2012)

east2west said:


> I've been on a bunch of threads regarding pornography lately. A persistent theme is that porn creates unrealistic or wrong attitudes and visuals about what sex should be like. I never understand what people are spouting about when they say this.
> 
> My guess is they think that because I have been looking at porn for so long my whole idea of sex is just wrong. Probably the sex I have with my wife every day or so is all wrong too.
> 
> ...


I like to watch it because I'm visual and I like to see sex in the act. I have no expectations that my sex life with my wife will be like it is in porn. Now, if someone wasn't realistic and got the idea that all sex was like that they would be in for a rude awakening.


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

Here's my take on the porn debate.

It's kinda like alcohol. Most people can use it on a social basis and not have it interfere with their lives or corrupt their thinking. However, for a fair-sized minority, it is addictive and can destroy their relationships and more broadly their social lives.

Naturally, on this site we see an oversampling of people who either fall within that addiction-prone minority or are in relationships with someone who does.

It's understandable that those who have to deal with a porn addiction are strongly opposed to porn and those who are not addicted are less likely to condemn its existence. All of us see things through the lens of our own experiences.

An alcoholic should stop drinking. A porn addict should stop watching. Easier said than done. We should support those battling an addiction without condemning those who are not addictive personalities.

So I'm going to keep drinking wine with dinner, even though it's poison to an alcoholic. But I'll support the efforts of an alcoholic to abstain and won't flaunt my use in his face.

I should add that I will join in condemning any type of child porn or any obviously abusive porn. I realize we have disagreements on whether ALL porn requires abuse of those who appear in the videos, but there are some genres that I bet we'd have widespread agreement are abusive.

Now I'll put away my soapbox.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

jaquen said:


> That's an enormous problem in real life, and is reflected very well here on TAM. A lot of people seem to believe that being insecure truly gives them an open ended pass to stifle their partner's actions, indefinitely. So instead of the insecure parties working to remedy those problems, they'd rather create a false world where their spouses just don't do anything at all to aggravate their self esteem issues. That's just putting a band-aid on a gunshot wound.


LTR's rise and fall on how the couple handle issues that concern, hurt or distress one and not the other. It is difficult to know what will distress someone you love, since their views and experiences are different. 

But the fact that they are distressed is enough to make it important in the relationship. One thing that you need to realize is that many women are very insecure. That is that. 

If you find that unreasonable and annoying, good luck with your relationships. Just imagine a man who says to his wife who expresses her insecurity due to his porn watching "you are insecure and that is why you have a problem with porn. 

You have to solve your insecurity problem and stop trying to control me" 

I think a man who is in command of his world accepts that many things make women feel insecure. But they do so without judgement or a sense of superiority.

He may not stop watching porn but he will be honest, calm and reassuring. He would take pains to be discrete about his habit out of respect for her feelings. 

That is what my husband does and now it is a non issue with us. I understand why he watches because he took pains to allay my concerns, talk about his feelings and answer my questions no matter how many times I brought it up. 

If you find it hard to understand and accept some of the common frailties of women, don't expect much understanding back. You get what you give in the relationship.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

To me, porn is nothing more than detached unemotional, mechanical sex, IMHO! Sorry folks, but I'll just have to settle for the real deal where there is the presence of love and emotion for each other!


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> One thing that you need to realize is that many women are very insecure. That is that.


And? Is that suppose to then give "many women" a free pass to indulge in their insecurities, ad nauseum, indefinitely? At what point do these "many women" start to put in serious work to move beyond said insecurities?



Catherine602 said:


> Just imagine a man who says to his wife who expresses her insecurity due to his porn watching "you are insecure and that is why you have a problem with porn.


 
I don't have to imagine. I lived it.

My wife never had a problem with porn. She use to watch it when she was younger (I didn't). She knew coming into the relationship that I wouldn't ever be asking for permission, or approval, about topics like pornography and masturbation should I chose to indulge. As long as we had a mutually satisfying sex life, that's all that matters. I don't make consultations about what I chose to do with my penis if it doesn't affect you.

Then she went through a rough patch where she gained some weight, and became really insecure about her body, and her sexuality. I empathized totally because I struggled for a very, very long time with those issues. This was brand new ground for her, but old ground for me.

Then, at some point, she started slowing sex down. I was patient, and understanding, for months. We weren't sexless, I wouldn't live in a sexless marriage, but it was diminished. She started displaying some uncharacteristically prudish behavior around me watching porn. When I finally had enough of the stall, and the prudishness, I brought it up as a serious problem. We got into a deep conversation about it, and she made an off hand, comment that I really didn't need her as much because I have porn and my hand. 

That was nipped right there in the bud. We did dig under the surface, and I did tell her that it was her insecurity talking. I did not come to her from a place of shame, and I did not apologize for being a man who has a sex drive. That's never, ever going to happen. I, in essence, as nicely as I could, told my wife that she needs to get over it enough to get our sex life back on place. I did all the right things; loved her, was patient about the diminished sex, came on to her, let her know that she is beautiful and sexy to me, the whole nine yards.

But you know what go results? You know what swiftly got our sex life back on track, and resurrected the potent sexual being that my wife naturally is? Me making it perfectly clear that I will not be kowtowing to her insecurities anymore, that I will not be apologizing for masturbation or porn, I will not be going out of my way to hide anything from her, and that I will no longer be enabling her hamster wheel to nowhere mentality, the kind that dictates that you express an insecurity, and your spouse is suppose to enable it for now, and forever.

At some point you have to say "enough is enough".


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

east2west said:


> So what is it that's wrong about the sex you see in porn?
> 
> The anatomy of the actors and actresses?
> The sexual acts that they engage in?
> ...


It's the way they perform the acts that keeps me from watching porn.I think it's ridiculous and a mockery of what sex between a man and a woman could be if their hearts are in it.

I'll stick to sexy pics


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

arbitrator said:


> To me, porn is nothing more than detached unemotional, mechanical sex, IMHO! Sorry folks, but I'll just have to settle for the real deal where there is the presence of love and emotion for each other!


That's the beautiful thing about a great deal of amateur porn. Real people who really want to be together having (what appears to be, at least) a genuinely enjoyable time. Sure, they still optimize positions for the camera somewhat, but there's a palpable sense of truly enjoying what they're doing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Grayson said:


> That's the beautiful thing about a great deal of amateur porn. Real people who really want to be together having (what appears to be, at least) a genuinely enjoyable time. Sure, they still optimize positions for the camera somewhat, but there's a palpable sense of truly enjoying what they're doing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think that you are quite correct in saying that. But whereas other people don't really seem to have a discernible problem with making and exhibiting themselves via their loving amateur porn; call me a prude if you must, but I, for one, would not want to be involved as a participant in such a tape for all of the world to see!


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

arbitrator said:


> I think that you are quite correct in saying that. But whereas other people don't really seem to have a discernible problem with making and exhibiting themselves via their loving amateur porn; call me a prude if you must, but I, for one, would not want to be involved as a participant in such a tape for all of the world to see!


That's fair. Different people have different comfort levels. I don't think I'd be comfortable with anything that my wife and I have filmed being out there for public consumption, either. On the other hand, I'm glad that there are those who are comfortable doing so. And, that's not to say that I don't also occasionally enjoy "professional" stuff, too. But, over the years, I've found amateur to be increasingly to my tastes over professional because of that genuine nature.

I liken it to my tastes in "mainstream" movies...I prefer movies with outstanding writing and performances, but sometimes it's fun to sit back, disengage the brain and watch a mindless "popcorn movie."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Jaquen I agree that there is a point where support and understanding has to yield results or you need to start pushing. 

The most important thing is that you were supportive and understanding. 

If I read your post aright, your wife did not do her part and push herself to trust that you were sincere. 

I thought you were starting at the pushing part before expressing your understanding. 

Like many women, I need periodic verbal reassurance from my husband. After that, I am good to go until the next time I need a dose of courage. 

He does not understand why he needs to verbally reassure so much he does it anyway.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> If I read your post aright, your wife did not do her part and push herself to trust that you were sincere.


Yes. My wife expressed her deepening insecurities, and because she knows my long history of issues, and because I can be so understanding on this front, she got comfortable being on an endless merry go round of poor self esteem related behavior. One of the ways that began to manifest itself was that she backed off from initiating sex, and began to avoid it in some instances. I always let her know that I adored her, I love her, and that I want to be with her. Our sex didn't stop, but it slowed.

Ultimately, however, none of that reassurance worked completely. None of that brought our sex life back to a satisfying volume for us both (because, again, we both love sex). What sparked the major change was me saying emphatically, and finally, that I have had enough. After I got through making it perfectly clear that we would NEVER end up like one of these sad, typical, low-sex couples, and that I am done offering her endless compliments that she only half lets in anyway, things changed. I was not about to allow her, even for a second, use my masturbation, or whatever porn I do watch (which incidentally is not a lot) as a scapegoat to enable her to stay away from sex so she can wallow in how bad she felt.

We had sex that night, and she was ravenous for it the whole week. It's lucky that in my case she wasn't suffering from a genuine, physiologically based LD issue. She just felt uncomfortable expressing that drive because she felt so damn bad about how her body looked with some extra weight. And I made the mistake of being too patient, for too long.


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