# They say men can;t communicate but...



## maverick23 (May 2, 2014)

...here I am on this forum, first and foremost. Starting a thread to see who else may be in a similar boat and share tips.

In my marriage of not quite 3 years, closer to 5 total time spent cohabiting, our arguments break down because my now wife gets too flustered to put together a coherent sentence. Myself, I am very articulate and introspective as an only child who has seen way too many movies, read too many books, etc. My educational background is in business and I have been in the consulting industry for 3 years, so long story short I am very conversational and use my words well, and am very in touch with my needs and emotions and articulate them to her.

My wife is hardworking and knows well what she works at (nurse), but doesn't have a ton of breadth of knowledge and experience. She had a great upbringing with tons of resources, very little if any hardship or tough personal challenges. As a result, her dating life consisted of date a guy until they started fighting, then she would break it off. From speaking with her friends, she never fought with her boyfriends and then resumed her relationship with them, before meeting me.

The net here as I characterize it would be: she sucks at fighting. Can't use words, just gets flustered and loses temper, yells, cries, etc. I can lay out clearly what I am thinking/feeling, but she can't translate well from hearing my words to conceptualizing an idea in whatever way she constructs things internally.

Sounds familiar to any other males out there? Hopefully I'm not the only guy who wants to drop kick people going around saying men aren't in touch with their emotions.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Your wife sounds exactly like my husband.


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## soulseer (Jul 26, 2013)

Your wife sounds exactly like my wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maverick23 (May 2, 2014)

soulseer said:


> Your wife sounds exactly like my wife.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So how do you manage?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

maverick23 said:


> So how do you manage?


My husband just needs time to gather his thoughts and usually write down what's going through his mind. He is a LOT better now than he used to be - his habit of refusing to engage and not dealing with his feelings led to a huge amount of resentment in him and he chose to deal with it by cheating. We've worked together for years in MC and other ways to learn better ways of communicating and meeting each others needs. He also seems to do better when it's more structured, such as book work like His Needs Her Needs and The 7 Principles of Making Marriage Work.

It would be well worth it for you to discover the way that she constructs things internally.


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## CantePe (Oct 5, 2011)

Odd that a nurse, of all people lacks communication skills. That is supposed to be one of our main abilities as nurses. As well as body language because you can't always verbally communicate.

I find it odd that you are also saying that a nurse lacks education and experience? Nursing is either a 2 year program, 4 year program or as a nurse practitioner a 7 year education (college and university).

Why are you devaluing her education and experience as a person, woman and nurse. Or rather why did you feel the need to do so here on the forum?

Do you do that to her face? While fighting? Do you exude superiority over her because you feel you are better educated and better read then her? Do you think you do it subconsciously without realizing it?

See I'm a three times around college graduate (yup I graduated three times working on number 4 too). I write for a living too (published author) and am an avid reader. IQ of 138. Husband didn't graduate past grade 9. Hates reading and is a trucker/DJ. His IQ is 189.

What I'm getting is education means nothing when there is no emotional knowledge and no emotional connection. Perhaps both of you should try an emotional based course together? Say Dr Eckert's micro expression and body language course?

I'm not chiding you either, perhaps you both need to learn each others emotional language if that makes sense.


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## soulseer (Jul 26, 2013)

I love my wife. Some things are just not worth fighting about.

Its about working out how she communicates and try to learn that language. 

For instance it might not be the actual articulation of an apology, it might be more about acting sorry ang giving a hug.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maverick23 (May 2, 2014)

CantePe said:


> Odd that a nurse, of all people lacks communication skills. That is supposed to be one of our main abilities as nurses. As well as body language because you can't always verbally communicate.
> 
> I find it odd that you are also saying that a nurse lacks education and experience? Nursing is either a 2 year program, 4 year program or as a nurse practitioner a 7 year education (college and university).
> 
> ...


All points are fair, for sure. My perceived superiority comes out here and there but I have done a lot of intentional work for lauding what she does and how well she does it. Our narrative is that we are very complimentary to each other in this aspect. Still though, I am pretty sensitive internally to the inherent superiority in remaining calm in conflict. Kind of a catch-22 there though.

The educational example was intended to contrast the emphasis on relationship building in our respective educations - i.e. she is very sharp clinically and scientifically, and because nursing is a regulated profession, there is less emphasis on the relationship building aspect in the education itself. This is a point we both agree on when talking about our respect careers; and one of our high level points of attraction is that be both are very highly educated and motivated in our respective fields - there is no inequity in our house with respect to education.


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## maverick23 (May 2, 2014)

And the experience reference was more holistic: she hasn't really been exposed much to lower-to middle class folks (always in affluent public schools), or had to have a part time job to pay for personal expenses through high school or college.

I would characterize this more simply as, she just hadn't gotten her hands dirty much before she met me.

I've spent a lot of intentional time with her parents talking about their family life and looking for pivotal life changing events - they really were pretty vanilla by all accounts. Betting there are some internal unresolved issues inside my wife's head from her upbringing, but nobody can point me on the right direction on those.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Have you ever looked at the books I suggested above, or done MC?


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## SpinDaddy (Nov 12, 2012)

maverick23 said:


> . . . .
> 
> The net here as I characterize it would be: she sucks at fighting. Can't use words, just gets flustered and loses temper, yells, cries, etc. I can lay out clearly what I am thinking/feeling, but she can't translate well from hearing my words to conceptualizing an idea in whatever way she constructs things internally.
> 
> Sounds familiar to any other males out there? Hopefully I'm not the only guy who wants to drop kick people going around saying men aren't in touch with their emotions.


My take on the expression “so and so can’t communicate effectively” is that the individual’s communication shortcoming happens prior to the point that a fight/argument/disagreement or whatever breaks out. 

Communication, by the point it reaches a “fight”, is really more of an emotional outlet than a communication dynamic in my book and to that end the only real value I perceive in a “fight” is at least getting “issues” out into the domain for later, more reasoned, and thoughtful discussion.


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## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

I get like your wife, especially in an argument. Like a deer in the headlights, and I can hardly remember my name. 

I can't remember where I read it but it was called "flooding" and what (sometimes!) works for me now is if I'm having an intense conversation with my SO and I'm starting to break down, unable to reply coherently, etc, I say "flooded" and I walk away for 15 min to calm down & collect my thoughts. 

Its funny because at work, especially in conflict, I am very quick on my feet to reply verbally. When emotions are involved is where I have trouble.


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## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

Gottman. Thats who it was. Its about adrenaline, fight or flight, etc.

Artcl: Emotional Floodin

Interestingly in there it says:

"Men are more physiologically prone than women to DPA"

In my experience women tend more to this reaction than men. I haven't done any studies though!


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## maverick23 (May 2, 2014)

I've read 6 or 8 books on marriage/family/communication over the last couple years. 5 love languages was the most well-aligned to both or our constructs, and we reference that from time to time. The trouble there was that while I know I am words of affirmation and quality time, she squarely couldn't assess herself, so we are not sure what her language is unfortunately.

Yes, this definitely exists before a fight or anything episodic. We have been having some great dialogue in the last year or so in fact and it is very rewarding and heart-warming. The problem still exists when she gets upset - much of the time when she gets upset she goes what I call zero to angry in the snap of a finger, no real progression between fine and angry, whereas I don't elevate nearly as quickly, but am always caught off guard at how she suddenly loses her composure.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

She's not feeling heard... if you are justifying something she is complaining about... that's non productive.

It's not going to matter how great you can communicate if she is feeling unheard.. and thus undervalued.

How great do you listen and care for her needs... especially if they are reasonable is key.


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## maverick23 (May 2, 2014)

greenfern said:


> I get like your wife, especially in an argument. Like a deer in the headlights, and I can hardly remember my name.
> 
> I can't remember where I read it but it was called "flooding" and what (sometimes!) works for me now is if I'm having an intense conversation with my SO and I'm starting to break down, unable to reply coherently, etc, I say "flooded" and I walk away for 15 min to calm down & collect my thoughts.
> 
> Its funny because at work, especially in conflict, I am very quick on my feet to reply verbally. When emotions are involved is where I have trouble.


You bring up a great detail that I forgot to include - she has these strong tendencies towards abandonment fear. And neither of us can figure out where they came from! I love taking a break as it helps me calm down if I am flooded, but it is a Pyrrhic victory as she gets so hurt when I do anything that can be perceived as "leaving her". Completely stumped there, but accordingly she can't bring herself to take time outs consistently and insists in staying in the ring until it is done.


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## maverick23 (May 2, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> She's not feeling heard... if you are justifying something she is complaining about... that's non productive.
> 
> It's not going to matter how great you can communicate if she is feeling unheard.. and thus undervalued.
> 
> How great do you listen and care for her needs... especially if they are reasonable is key.


That's very true - we arrive at that conclusion very often. The trouble is, our fights usually consist of me asking clarifying questions, and her answer being "I don't know!".

I hate I don't know. I hear it from her all the time, and I don't know what to do with it.

"What did I do that was mean" - I don't know
"How would you like me to communicate such n so" - I don't know
"What can I be doing differently" - I don't know
"How does this make you feel" - I don't know
"What do you mean by 'just be nice'" - I don't know


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## CantePe (Oct 5, 2011)

Thank you for clarifying your position. I understand a lot better where you are coming from.

The very interpretation of your original post is a prime example of miscommunication and the very topic we are talking about here right.

I will reiterate that we don't really put a lot of thought or time into emotional knowledge and education (as you just did in clarifying posts). I am, and I neglected to say so the first time, hear impaired and I fully believe in emotional knowledge (and this is coming from an INFP personality, very introvert) through emotional education especially within the context of body language and micro expression. Learning to read people is paramount to emotional education and knowledge.

In short: perhaps a course like Dr. Eckma's micro expression and body language courses may be a wonderful couples activity for the both of you.


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## maverick23 (May 2, 2014)

CantePe said:


> Thank you for clarifying your position. I understand a lot better where you are coming from.
> 
> The very interpretation of your original post is a prime example of miscommunication and the very topic we are talking about here right.
> 
> ...


Great context, and great advice. I think that would be received very well.

I hope this can be one of those giant threads, as this is all great discussion IMO. Really would welcome more thought in getting over the "I don't know" hurdle....


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## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

maverick23 said:


> You bring up a great detail that I forgot to include - she has these strong tendencies towards abandonment fear. And neither of us can figure out where they came from! I love taking a break as it helps me calm down if I am flooded, but it is a Pyrrhic victory as she gets so hurt when I do anything that can be perceived as "leaving her". Completely stumped there, but accordingly she can't bring herself to take time outs consistently and insists in staying in the ring until it is done.


I never understood what I was feeling either, until I attended this seminar. Now I recognize when I feel panicky - she might have some indicators earlier that you aren't seeing. I'm sure my xh would have said the same as you, that I go zero to crazy in 3 seconds but for me it ramps up slower than that.

My dad always used to walk away when he was angry (or drive, sometimes for an hour or more). I never thought of it as abandonment even then, just that he couldn't calm himself down in our presence. Just verbally expressing that I am "flooded" makes it easier for my SO to handle me walking away in a discussion, because he knows I can't think straight.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

When my husband says 'I don't know' what he really means is 'I need time to think about it'. Maybe if you said "Can we discuss [whatever] tomorrow evening?' and suggested that she write down some thoughts beforehand, she'd be less inclined to just say she doesn't know. I dunno, that works for my hubby.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

On the other end of the spectrum, H here, a loquacious at times bombastic college prof up against an articulate word wise speech and language pathologist wife... Our arguments take on the flavor of a dissertation defense. My sons


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## maverick23 (May 2, 2014)

drerio said:


> On the other end of the spectrum, H here, a loquacious at times bombastic college prof up against an articulate word wise speech and language pathologist wife... Our arguments take on the flavor of a dissertation defense. My sons


Sounds fun. Nice fringe benefit for me along with the content on this forum.


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

My wife is exactly as the op describes his. Just poor at articulating her thoughts. My advantage is extensive training and experience in conflict resolution as that is essentially my job. I'm sensitive to that and do not look at it as a weakness, in fact I am patient during disagreements and give her ample time to form her responses because I really do want to hear her out. It usually results in her acting like a porn star during the make up session, problem is, that's the only time she acts like a porn star


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Blossom Leigh said:


> She's not feeling heard... if you are justifying something she is complaining about... that's non productive.
> 
> It's not going to matter how great you can communicate if she is feeling unheard.. and thus undervalued.
> 
> How great do you listen and care for her needs... especially if they are reasonable is key.


This may be exactly it.

As a dude, I tend to try to convey and listen for data.

What my wife often tries to "discuss" is emotion which my logic centre interprets as "noise."

Sometimes she just needs me to shut up and listen even if I don't know what the heck she's going on about.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

My wife is/was like this. Not only the emotional flooding, but she’s an avoider. Pretty much like her brain starts to short circuit because of all the conflicting thoughts rattling around where every answer that starts to bubble to the surface is ruled out because she’s expecting that I can shred that response. So, she chickens out “I don’t know”… 

I had to approach it like she’s some loon freshly escaped where I was seeking not so much what she meant by the words, but how she got from A to @ (instead of B) via a rollercoaster ride through the rest of the alphabet. Once I figured out she hauled in a billion perceptions and takes on me and my reactions to formulate the “right answer” (avoiding) like it was some convoluted plan I had to ‘trap her’, it became painfully obvious she has no f’n clue how I think. She never asked and just assumed based on some really circumstantial reactions in the past. It was really some jacked up notion of not only her sense of self, but her sense of that self she thought I thought she was or wanted her to be; And just as dumb some weird sense of rebellion to not be someone she’s not just because she thinks I think I want her to be that way. Entirely too complex and based entirely on some fiction she had in her head; Hence the total communication breakdown.

So I asked her to stop mind-reading and assuming, and just ask me so she could at least create a semi-factual character of me in her head if that was going to remain part of how she might answer a question. MC even suggested trying to keep it real simple like you don’t know this person and visa-versa. Take questions at face value rather than sniff out some plot or power play behind them.

She does the same for me. Sometimes it’s even fun to see how off, or deadly accurate, we are about what the other is thinking. We verbalize it, no matter how insane or off it sounds just to see if it might be true rather than making assumptions. And we don’t cover up when it’s right… I’ve actually said “I bet right now you are wondering how to hide my body.” And that devious smile and overly animated “Who me?” tells me I’m right.


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## maverick23 (May 2, 2014)

okeydokie said:


> My wife is exactly as the op describes his. Just poor at articulating her thoughts. My advantage is extensive training and experience in conflict resolution as that is essentially my job. I'm sensitive to that and do not look at it as a weakness, in fact I am patient during disagreements and give her ample time to form her responses because I really do want to hear her out. It usually results in her acting like a porn star during the make up session, problem is, that's the only time she acts like a porn star


Tactical advice on getting to a makeup session? Miss those...


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## maverick23 (May 2, 2014)

Racer said:


> My wife is/was like this. Not only the emotional flooding, but she’s an avoider. Pretty much like her brain starts to short circuit because of all the conflicting thoughts rattling around where every answer that starts to bubble to the surface is ruled out because she’s expecting that I can shred that response. So, she chickens out “I don’t know”…
> 
> I had to approach it like she’s some loon freshly escaped where I was seeking not so much what she meant by the words, but how she got from A to @ (instead of B) via a rollercoaster ride through the rest of the alphabet. Once I figured out she hauled in a billion perceptions and takes on me and my reactions to formulate the “right answer” (avoiding) like it was some convoluted plan I had to ‘trap her’, it became painfully obvious she has no f’n clue how I think. She never asked and just assumed based on some really circumstantial reactions in the past. It was really some jacked up notion of not only her sense of self, but her sense of that self she thought I thought she was or wanted her to be; And just as dumb some weird sense of rebellion to not be someone she’s not just because she thinks I think I want her to be that way. Entirely too complex and based entirely on some fiction she had in her head; Hence the total communication breakdown.
> 
> ...


That's a real accurate description. Sounds like you can navigate through this, but are you successful in making it a productive fight? i.e., can you eventually agree on what you're fighting about and what the resolutions are?


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## maverick23 (May 2, 2014)

marduk said:


> This may be exactly it.
> 
> As a dude, I tend to try to convey and listen for data.
> 
> ...


Would love to do that. I consider it a victory if I get her to go off on a rant - as long as she is using English words, it is helpful.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

maverick23 said:


> That's a real accurate description. Sounds like you can navigate through this, but are you successful in making it a productive fight? i.e., can you eventually agree on what you're fighting about and what the resolutions are?


Yes. Once she understood what she was doing to herself, we were sort of able to put stop signs in there. So, a lot of it is her recognizing how she's making assumptions (or I am).

The MC sort of progressed to that parroting thing. So, I ask a question and she parrots back the question rephrased as she understands what I'm really asking. If she didn't get it right, I clarify until it really is clear why I'm asking and what I'm asking for. It takes a ton of patience. 

Staying on topic is another issue. My wife liked to 'deflect' or 'soapbox'; Introduce some other issue that is suddenly a 'big deal'. At first, I'd have to schedule 'talks' with the topic. That way she also wasn't ambushed and had a chance to ready herself. So if she deflected, I'd say "That isn't what we're talking about. Would you like to talk about that tomorrow? We're here to talk about 'this'." Basically not allowing her to weasel out.

Resolution.... unfortunately no. She 'resolves' and promises are made. I call it the two week rule; That's about how long she'll throw scraps at it until she convinces herself it isn't needed or failed. Can't help you there... The communication at least makes sure you feel they understand where your head is at. Getting that change is an entirely different beast. They have to want to change it for themselves, not just for you.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

I'm like your wife. I will have all these thoughts in my head but then it's hard to articulate them. I do better with writing them out. 

I know a lot of people won't agree with this form of marital communication but many of our talks and disagreements, including resolutions, have taken place over text. This works better for both of us.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Slow down...

Show compassion for her angst

Listen almost in total silence... Let her have the floor.

You will pick up on the patterns you need to see.

"I don't know" is code for "I dont want to say because I dont trust you with my emotional safety."

Her lack if safety may be hard for her to verbalize. Be patient.


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## bkaydezz (Jul 9, 2012)

maverick23 said:


> ...here I am on this forum, first and foremost. Starting a thread to see who else may be in a similar boat and share tips.
> 
> In my marriage of not quite 3 years, closer to 5 total time spent cohabiting, our arguments break down because my now wife gets too flustered to put together a coherent sentence. Myself, I am very articulate and introspective as an only child who has seen way too many movies, read too many books, etc. My educational background is in business and I have been in the consulting industry for 3 years, so long story short I am very conversational and use my words well, and am very in touch with my needs and emotions and articulate them to her.
> 
> ...


I share that problem. My honey tells me that he cant talk to me when I get started. That upsets me even more. I know that I can handle anything stressful around me just fine, but when dealing with my own emotions I fall apart. It is a struggle. I Cry and yell and fall apart. I think, as you said the personality depends a lot upon communication. Not to mention, women are emotional period. Just don't insult her when she attempts to really talk to you. That is horrible.


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## bkaydezz (Jul 9, 2012)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Slow down...
> 
> Show compassion for her angst
> 
> ...


You deserve a trophy! True, True.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

bkaydezz said:


> You deserve a trophy! True, True.


Thank you !


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

OP, I noticed that when you felt criticized by an early poster's take on your situation, your responses became even more...erudite, let's say...than your initial post had been. Almost to the point that it became a little hard to follow your meaning. I wonder if you, consciously or unconsciously, tend to do that with your wife when you feel defensive? In other words, she may perceive that you use language as a distancing tool when you two argue. She may feel that the more you talk, the cloudier the issue becomes, making it so hard for her to feel heard that she just gives up entirely. That "I don't know!" sounds like something a slightly panicked suspect would say while being interrogated. Is it at all possible that in your zeal to debate, and have her do it the 'right' (your) way, that you are using language to ramp up tension until she feels overwhelmed? I know it frustrates you that she doesn't communicate the way you'd prefer, but my guess is that you don't communicate the way she'd prefer, either. Even though you think you're the one in the right here, you may find that being right in this case is costing you. 

Look, I can hold my own with a room full of cranky old male professors who've shown up purely to critique my work, my theory, my methodology, and even my voice, hairstyle and clothing. But when I'm having a discussion with my partner, I want a conversation. I don't like feeling as if I'm on a podium having to present and defend. You're going to have to figure out a way to talk with your wife so that you can both feel heard. Writing things down, active listening, something. A MC may be a great help here in teaching you _both_ good communication skills.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

I think a fair question is "does she have trouble telling other people what she needs or is it just you." If it is just you, then the communication environment being created around her is leaving her NO room to maneuver. Eventually, given enough time, she will leave that pain. Just pure human reaction.

If you communicate in a way that boxes her in to leave her NO room to maneuver then that can be VERY unloving. It's not all about one person. Acceptance, grace, mercy and respect go a LONG way with right intent.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

maverick23 said:


> ...here I am on this forum, first and foremost. Starting a thread to see who else may be in a similar boat and share tips.
> 
> In my marriage of not quite 3 years, closer to 5 total time spent cohabiting, our arguments break down because my now wife gets too flustered to put together a coherent sentence. Myself, I am very articulate and introspective as an only child who has seen way too many movies, read too many books, etc. My educational background is in business and I have been in the consulting industry for 3 years, so long story short I am very conversational and use my words well, and am very in touch with my needs and emotions and articulate them to her.
> 
> ...


I haven't read much past the first few posts, but the way you word things, I wonder.

When you fight with your wife. Are you striving to "win the argument"? Saying she can't fight and she gets flustered while you maintain very cohesive points and could keep going if she was capable, is indicative of you arguing to win the argument and she would then be the loser.

THAT is the problem. It's not that your wife can't articulate her feelings etc. She's not looking to compete with you or debate you. She'll probably be the first to admit she can't debate. But why does every fight have to be a debate.

If you continue to operate your fights as a "me versus her" attitude, it will lead to resentment at the least and divorce and/or cheating at the most.

When a problem happens, you need to reset your mind to be in a "Us (you and your wife working together) versus the problem".

The first thing you need to do when looking at a problem is assume the best of your spouse and work from that perspective. MOST spouses don't intentionally try to cause discord for their husband or wife. MOST issues are accidental or incidental and not premeditated acts of anger or aggression.

Before you start your next "fight", think about what the REAL problem is and what solution you want. 

I'll give you an example from me. My wife and I were struggling financially for a few months and we both agreed to keep spending to a minimum. We knew it would be short lived, but it was still real. She went out a couple times with a friend of hers and did some shopping. Normally it wouldn't be an issue because my wife doesn't shop often and what she buys is truly needed, but it was the timing.

I didn't get angry. I didn't blame. I didn't berate. I said to her "There's something I want to talk about, let me know when we can sit down". We made an agreement that we won't "jump" on issues because the emotions are usually the highest when an issue first happens. If we "make an appointment" for later, emotions usually die down and we have better conversations. I ASKED if she truly needed what she bought, because I would never deny a need. At first she said yes, and I NICELY asked, if she TRULY needed all of it. And she said no, not really. We then talked about our agreement and how this expenditure would affect the financial situation long term. She agreed and said she'd return most of what she bought, but there were some items she did TRULY need. I said, that's fair. 

We worked through it together without anger or frustration. My wife could've easily argued how she needed everything and how she barely shops like other wives. And she'd have valid points. I could argue how we made an agreement and didn't have the money for a few months, and I'd be right too. It could've turned into a knock down drag out argument that built resentment and anger....but it didn't.

I'm not saying you're wrong for anything you've said, I'd just recommend analyzing how you fight and what your goal is from the fights. If it's to win the fight, you'll lose long term.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

:smthumbup:


Dad&Hubby said:


> I haven't read much past the first few posts, but the way you word things, I wonder.
> 
> When you fight with your wife. Are you striving to "win the argument"? Saying she can't fight and she gets flustered while you maintain very cohesive points and could keep going if she was capable, is indicative of you arguing to win the argument and she would then be the loser.
> 
> ...


:smthumbup:


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## maverick23 (May 2, 2014)

To be more clear, I don't believe in blame or fault, and most issues are really just miscommunications. The last few posts would have been very accurate of my view on fighting several years ago, but these days we don't view it is something where one has to win. The goal for me at least here is to be able to understand her point of view, and understand exactly what I did wrong and what I can do differently Body language, silent treatment, etc. are important factors and not to be ignored, but I really want to get to a point where we can both be very clear and explicit, preferably without me having to play 20 questions.


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## maverick23 (May 2, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Slow down...
> 
> Show compassion for her angst
> 
> ...


That's very insightful, and something we haven't spent enough time exploring. Thanks!


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Darlin' sometimes 20 questions can seem like huge emotional pressure... that "I don't know is her saying not only I don't trust you, but also AND I want the pressure to stop."

Watch her next time you do 20 questions and if she is physically moving away from you, getting physically agitated, fidgety... then she is under emotional pressure and the BEST strategy at that point is retreat, love on her... apologize for upsetting her, let her pressure subside and come back to it later prefaced with love/acceptance and understanding.

if you are seeking to understand, you will figure this out... its now just the art of reading her reactions to know how to create a great environment for productive communication.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

maverick23 said:


> To be more clear, I don't believe in blame or fault, and most issues are really just miscommunications. The last few posts would have been very accurate of my view on fighting several years ago, but these days we don't view it is something where one has to win. The goal for me at least here is to be able to understand her point of view, and understand exactly what I did wrong and what I can do differently Body language, silent treatment, etc. are important factors and not to be ignored, but *I really want to get to a point where we can both be very clear and explicit, preferably without me having to play 20 questions*.


If you're playing 20 questions, stop. It's not effective, and it's causing emotional distancing for her and frustration for you. So stop doing it. Instead, try asking her one question and inviting her to get back to you later or write it out for you.

You: Is there anything I can do differently that might help with [whatever]?
Her: I don't know!
You: Can you think about it and let me know later if you do come up with something? You could send me a text or email, or we'll schedule a time to talk about it again if you'd like.​
Also, if you used to use your words as weapons in arguments in order to win, what you're experiencing now is probably the emotional hangover from that behavior. Your wife learned that you were in it to WIN and that she stood no chance, so she gave up trying. Even now that you have stopped that behavior, the pattern of her response was forged in that old place and hasn't changed much. It can take a _long_ time for new behaviors to overcome the memories of old ones. Some part of her is probably waiting for you to revert to type.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

maverick23 said:


> Would love to do that. I consider it a victory if I get her to go off on a rant - as long as she is using English words, it is helpful.


What I do is sit her down (she likes to rant while running around the house like a chicken with her head cut off), look her in the eye, and let her vent.

When she starts repeating her self or going in circles, then I jump in and either end it or focus on what can be done about it (if anything).


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Yes... one question ... then be graceful and give her space to respond... 

Start practicing asking one question and going a full 24 hours before expecting an answer... you will receive WAY more information by opening up space for her to step into to communicate.


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## Toshiba2020 (Mar 1, 2012)

Everyone has different DNA and different life experiences.

I like you am MUCH better and communicating effectively compared to my wife, i can stay calm, speak clearly and express my feelings. But i was lucky, my parents are good communicators, I have had many relationships and took quite a few communication classes in college.

My wife on the other hand never dated anyone until me, has a family that fights constantly and has no experience at expressing feelings, she just breaks down into either a pile of tears or just explodes.

So be thankful for what skills you have try your best to work with and teach those who dont.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

I wish our society promoted "style of conflict management" to choosing mates. It seems to be one of the last things addressed since it is usually not thought about until it shows up on the scene, but it is a real source of need since once it does show up it can be devastatingly destructive. Tosh, your wife can learn better conflict management without question. Would love to see her do that. My H and I both are seeking to strengthen ourselves in this area. Good conflict management lowers stress for EVERYONE and is truly becoming a favorite subject of mine. Because NO ONE is immune to these issues. It straddles ALL ages, socioeconomic realms, IQ's, EQ's, gender, race, etc...


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

maverick23 said:


> The net here as I characterize it would be: she sucks at fighting. Can't use words, just gets flustered and loses temper, yells, cries, etc.


Is "Fighting" a synonym for debate here?


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Rowan said:


> If you're playing 20 questions, stop. It's not effective, and it's causing emotional distancing for her and frustration for you. So stop doing it. Instead, try asking her one question and inviting her to get back to you later or write it out for you.
> 
> You: Is there anything I can do differently that might help with [whatever]?
> Her: I don't know!
> ...


I like the direction you're taking, but I like to be more active.

"What do you want to be different next time?"


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Like the clear cut of that Marduk.. nice

If she answers right away ... just be silent and listen until she is totally finished.

If she hesitates, you will know she has been wounded in this area with you and that will need time to heal

At that point, offer her space to heal and respond in HER time and let her know it is important to you and tell her you will be calm, patient, until she can answer and while you are waiting, go do something away from her without causing her to feel abandoned, calmly busy, but ready to support. 

It is hard to see internal wounds we have created, but there are ways to notice the whisper of their existence if you learn to listen in silence.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

marduk said:


> I like the direction you're taking, but I like to be more active.
> 
> "What do you want to be different next time?"


While you work on yourself, it is also reasonable to give her some "assignments" to move things forward. You can't change her, but can point her in a direction that can help the two of you. Statements like the above can show her that she needs to work past "I don't know" on her own a bit.


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## maverick23 (May 2, 2014)

ocotillo said:


> Is "Fighting" a synonym for debate here?


=conflict resolution, behavior when upset, etc.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Should also mention my wife and I have ‘other’ kinds of arguments you might call ‘scream therapy’. A big problem of our past is both of us tended to let all sorts of other things create a powderkeg. It’s not really even her or I doing it to each other. Often it’s the kids. So you’re looking for a fight… then your spouse does something and ‘it’s on’. Ridiculous fights over really petty things.

So, she or I can pick a fight over something silly. And I’ll gleefully egg her on without judgment or that after dwelling, etc. There are rules like it can’t stray over to touchy subjects where it does become personal.

There are benefits. She learned it’s ok and I won’t hold a grudge. It gets that emotion out instead of letting it fester. And it’s bonding because we can let down our guard and expose how looney we really are… like our own little personal thing we can’t do with anyone else. 

I just can’t remember how we got there or how exactly it developed, but these fights are different. I just have fond memories of infamous “Where the f’k is my sandwitch!?”, the “You are an a-hole for not noticing the new hamper in the closet!”, and “Dishwasher” fights. Every one escalated to divorce, one to actually loading a suitcase because “I’m out of here..” then giggles because of how crazy we let it get to. And then making up and thanking each other for tolerating the insanity that is you.


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## maverick23 (May 2, 2014)

Thanks everyone for the great dialogue. The ideas around her not being comfortable enough to talk to me are probably on the right track.

Not meaning to be a stick in the mud, but a confounding piece is that it isn't just me that she does this with. All else equal, her conflict style is avoidance. I see this with her family and friends, though she talks about those conflicts with me which I think is a good sign, since she often makes herself vulnerable.

The other side of that same coin is that she doesn't really have friends that she is very close with on the emotional level, leading me to believe she just isn't used to talking about her feelings at all (which she admits), so she is somewhat forced to learn how to do that with me only, and we are playing from behind after having a very contentious first couple years together. Gah..


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

maverick23 said:


> Thanks everyone for the great dialogue. The ideas around her not being comfortable enough to talk to me are probably on the right track.
> 
> Not meaning to be a stick in the mud, but a confounding piece is that it isn't just me that she does this with. All else equal, her conflict style is avoidance. I see this with her family and friends, though she talks about those conflicts with me which I think is a good sign, since she often makes herself vulnerable.
> 
> The other side of that same coin is that she doesn't really have friends that she is very close with on the emotional level, leading me to believe she just isn't used to talking about her feelings at all (which she admits), so she is somewhat forced to learn how to do that with me only, and we are playing from behind after having a very contentious first couple years together. Gah..


My wife is a guerrilla warfare fighter.

She'll attack until cornered or caught in the wrong, then avoid avoid avoid... run away and hide like a child.

I used to chase her down to try to "resolve" the fight. Didn't work. That's what guerrilla warfare fighters want. Attack, then disappear in hopes that they will draw you into their zone. They then set all the rules and you'll end up begging for mercy.

Then I used to sit and sulk. This kind of worked because eventually she'd at least come and talk to me about it. But I had to waste a bunch of time sulking like an emo schoolgirl.

What works well is to just shrug, and go hit the gym or go out with the buddies, or do something else fun.

She's usually chasing me down to "resolve" the fight... that she started.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Because its painful for her in general....

And if this is the case then you need a very specific strategy...

YOU will need to nurture yourself and keep a healing space for yourself otherwise you will be codependent to her pain.

read "Codependency No More" book

You will THEN be prepared to offer her healing environment from time to time, but ....

She will need to take responsibility for her own healing in that area. You can support her reasonably, but you cannot heal it for her and she doesn't need to expect you to heal it. Y'all need reasonable, healthy exchanges and that requires really healthy loving boundaries. So any boundary books by Townsend are also good.

I kind of like Marduk's approach... except IF it is done with apathy it can start to create abandonment fear and go the other way. I think it's a delicate balance between co-dependency and abandonment where the healthiest exchanges take place.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

marduk said:


> But I had to waste a bunch of time sulking like an emo schoolgirl.


I'm sorry you found yourself in what must have been a trying situation, but I just had to say that this made me laugh.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

maverick23 said:


> =conflict resolution, behavior when upset, etc.


Okay..

Fighting and/or Debate is probably the least effective method of Conflict resolution / Reconciliation, which is why I asked.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

ocotillo said:


> Okay..
> 
> Fighting and/or Debate is probably the least effective method of Conflict resolution / Reconciliation, which is why I asked.


sneaky signature line Octillio, but I like it


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Rowan said:


> I'm sorry you found yourself in what must have been a trying situation, but I just had to say that this made me laugh.


Sometimes you gotta laugh.

I had to take a cold hard look at myself that can kick a$$ in the board room and the weight room but was a whiny little B when my wife hurt my little feelings.

Bah. I put myself there; I had to get myself outta there.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Because its painful for her in general....
> 
> And if this is the case then you need a very specific strategy...
> 
> ...


Quote from the founder of Aikido:

"An attack is proof that one is out of control. Never run away from any kind of challenge, but do not try to suppress or control an opponent unnaturally. Let attackers come any way they like and then blend with them. Never chase after opponents."

Works in my marriage.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

LOTS of truth in that statement

Manage the attacker that shows up

Calm assertive

Know what happens before what happens happens

The only thing I see that would sweeten the exchange is compassion...

Showing compassion to an attacker in the right way at the right time can be life changing.


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## maverick23 (May 2, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> LOTS of truth in that statement
> 
> Manage the attacker that shows up
> 
> ...


Love this aspiration. Wish I could pull it off more successfully.

Also should point out that we have tried MC with 3 counselors, to no avail. Wife has a lot of trouble opening up - tons of I don't know, which I now suspect is a reflection of her level of trust with counselors - and we really got nowhere as she didn't have a positive experience more often than not.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

she is really self protected which is a barrier to intimacy...


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## maverick23 (May 2, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> she is really self protected which is a barrier to intimacy...


True that - for some more context, we have been on a great upward trend the last 6 months or so. Correlates with me taking a new job, but that's another story. Our intimacy has been problematic for a while but small improvements are starting to show up as the broader dynamic improves (duh).

I generally only read during the summer and it sounds like the the takeaway for me so far is that I need to put more energy into creating an environment for her to feel more safe. In my defense, I don't say hurtful things and I don't insult her; I can honestly say that I am respectful 99% of the time during conflict but I would say that she is hurt by the fact that I disagree with her, or if I ask her to make a behavioral change. 

So, great thanks to everyone for getting to that point. Now can anyone recommend a personal dev book on this specific subject? I've read many of the broader communication/relationship books so I would be looking for something along the lines of "ways I can create a safe environment". Needs to be really deep though and narrowly focused on this, and preferably aimed towards overly analytical/logical thinkers....


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Ok... now you are talking right up the alley I'm handling with my husband right now and have been for a while now.

So... lets walk through a few concepts that have helped me navigate the best in real time...

I had to divide my requests and his requests into two camps... reasonable vs unreasonable.

Then I had to divide our reactions/behavior to those requests into two camps acceptable or unacceptable.

Doing these two things really helped me build a framework by which I could set healthy boundaries, ask for the change, stand in the truth and not waiver... I'll give some examples next.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Op, I think BL meant emotional intimacy, but you seem to have taken it to mean sexual intimacy. The good news is that as the former improves, you'll probably see an overall improvement in the latter as well. Many women need a strong emotional bond - emotional intimacy - in order to desire a lot of sexual intimacy. 

I'm not sure if you've read them, but I'm going to suggest that you read _Lovebusters_ and _His Needs, Her Needs_, both by Willard Harley. They will both give you ideas on how to create a safe environment for one another and help you meet each other's needs. See if you can get your wife to read them both, either alone or with you as a couples activity.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

One example...

It was not ok for my husband to neglect (unacceptable reaction) my pleas for help when I was exhausted in caring for our household from 4:00 in the morning to 11:00 at night while he slept in, so I asked for help. (reasonable request)

It was great that last night when I was starting to spin out of control from so much going on (somewhat unreasonable, though I think we have figured out it is still deep exhaustion), that he gently took my face between his hands and said "calm, patient, I love you" (resonable reaction)

I've got many of these, but having trouble wording a few of them.. 


my H resists change because he resists responsibilility

I will resist change when the request is unreasonable

It has to be determined if your request is reasonable and her reaction is unreasonable

or if your request is unreasonable and her reaction is reasonable

Took a long time for my H to figure out that just because he feels unheard or that I don't understand him does not mean I didn't hear him or didn't understand him. He just couldn't accept that not everyone agrees with him. He thought his logic was so solid that if someone disagreed that they must be stupid. Along comes his intelligent wife... who says... not so. I just don't agree with your logic and see... here are the holes I can poke in it. So, he has since changed that stance. But will still drift into it and therefore we are having to work on him not assuming that I didn't get it. If it is bugging him that I might not have gotten it, then he is to ask me if I got it. He used to gaslight me over this and I had to lay a hard boundary that that was NOT acceptable. Took me forever to figure out what it was he was doing.... but thank the good Lord above I did!


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Rowan said:


> Op, I think BL meant emotional intimacy, but you seem to have taken it to mean sexual intimacy. The good news is that as the former improves, you'll probably see an overall improvement in the latter as well. Many women need a strong emotional bond - emotional intimacy - in order to desire a lot of sexual intimacy.
> 
> I'm not sure if you've read them, but I'm going to suggest that you read _Lovebusters_ and _His Needs, Her Needs_, both by Willard Harley. They will both give you ideas on how to create a safe environment for one another and help you meet each other's needs. See if you can get your wife to read them both, either alone or with you as a couples activity.


Yes, emotional intimacy is what I meant


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## maverick23 (May 2, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> One example...
> 
> It was not ok for my husband to neglect (unacceptable reaction) my pleas for help when I was exhausted in caring for our household from 4:00 in the morning to 11:00 at night while he slept in, so I asked for help. (reasonable request)
> 
> ...


This sounds like a framework I use with moderate success with miscommunications and who can do what.

When discussing stimulus vs. response, I tend to guide the conversation towards reducing stimuli (making a rude observation/comment out of the blue) versus altering responses (taking great offense and going on a soap box rant, etc.). My thinking here is that it is physiological easier for person A to not do something that could spark a conflict than for person B to have a more palatable reaction. Is that somewhat like what you are getting at? 

I hesitate to work with reasonable vs. unreasonable, as we simply disagree in some core value areas like manners and family roles. Are you successful in reaching consensus on reasonableness?


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## maverick23 (May 2, 2014)

Rowan said:


> Op, I think BL meant emotional intimacy, but you seem to have taken it to mean sexual intimacy. The good news is that as the former improves, you'll probably see an overall improvement in the latter as well. Many women need a strong emotional bond - emotional intimacy - in order to desire a lot of sexual intimacy.
> 
> I'm not sure if you've read them, but I'm going to suggest that you read _Lovebusters_ and _His Needs, Her Needs_, both by Willard Harley. They will both give you ideas on how to create a safe environment for one another and help you meet each other's needs. See if you can get your wife to read them both, either alone or with you as a couples activity.


I meant emotional - but either way, BL's response is on point, and so is this one. I'd prefer a book that I could just read myself - if I can avoid overtly drawing attention to me making this change I think that is a good thing. And I'm a psychology junkie, wife not so much.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

So far we are because he is down right abusive in his responses when my requests were VERY reasonable.

We might hit some gray area, but right now it's pretty clear cut and it took him accepting me saying... those responses are NOT acceptable and if you cannot change them (excessive anger) with a professional you will risk divorce with me.

we had gotten to that point.

The rest will have to be laid at the feet of emotional agility since there will be some areas where you have to agree to disagree and both have to be emotionally agile enough to be ok with that and just accept it.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

There were some key things that had to happen with us....

acceptance of his personal responsibility in his reactions

acceptance of someone disagreeing with him (still a weak area)

He was wanting to control my reactions to his unacceptable behavior so I also had to address his controlling behavior...

I had so many layers to address that it took some serious focus, hard core determination and I had to grow a pair of balls to stand up to this 6'3" fierce man when I am only 5'3"

My strategy had to be spot on and it took homework and research... 

Boundary work (any Townsend books)
Codependency no more (book)

Out of the Fog (website) - best definitions of unacceptable behaviors

Parelli Natural Horsemanship (was really my first visual aid)

There are some other books I want to tap that are mentioned around here... working on a couple of them now


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

LOL... I think I need a vacation... at least a week .. ALONE!


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Blossom Leigh said:


> sneaky signature line Octillio, but I like it


I'm glad you can read it. Sometimes I feel incredibly geeky having this as a hobby.

And it actually does dovetail with the OP. We (Men) aren't all morons when it comes to language skills.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

I googled the translation


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