# Calling all MEN! I need your help!



## r2d210

BIGBADWOLF....I especially need your imput! 

Scenerio.....

I get up this morning and I'm emptying the dish washer.....

Wife walks in....

Wife: "Uh oh, you dropped water on the floor. That's why I do the dishes, you aren't carefull enough!"

Me: "Don't worry, I will wipe it up"

Wife: "It's too late, I will do it when I get home. Besides, you wouldn't have noticed it if I wouldn't have told you about it." 

Learning to change myself so that she can change is truly what I desire. I just don't know how. Is it appropriate to put the foot down here (not in a jerk way) and say, "listen, I'm helping and I will clean it up!"? 

What does a MAN do different here that says "I Love YOU" but your treating me like a child? Any input would really help!


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## Conrad

You quietly stop doing what you're doing and turn on the emotional air conditioner.

You do that with body language. Stiffen and walk away.

Don't do the dishes again until things warm back up.

Do not - under any circumstances - plead or beg for her to understand what a "nice guy" you are.


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## Conrad

SadSamIAm said:


> I don't believe this works. My wife says things like this to me all the time. I think she does it to cause me to get cold to her. She wants me to be cold to her, so that she doesn't have to get close to me.


Sounds like you're afraid she will not "miss you" if you withdraw from the relationship.

I feel for you.

Have you two been to counseling?


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## Deejo

This is my personal opinion. Nobody that wants to save their marriage wants to behave in a manner that they believe will jeopardize it.

The reality is ... it has already been jeopardized.

If you aren't prepared to risk it, it's even less likely that you will take the steps necessary to save it.

And if you try and it fails ... that is probably what was going to happen regardless of your efforts. If you take the steps to change how you behave, and regain a measure of control over yourself, you will be better prepared to deal with whatever the outcome is.


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## r2d210

I want to save my marriage. I do not want a divorce. I'm willing to take the steps necessary. But I don't know how and I want to learn! I have never tried the approach that Conrad is suggesting. My guess is, she would think very hard about the way she treated me. I will be trying it the next chance I get! I know it is baby steps but I see this kind of behavior from her every day. I try harder to be nicer, so that she will recipicate that, which she does not. I make the bed everyday, I make the coffee every day. I try very hard to pick up, help out, all why working all day long. I know that for me to stand up to her would be very different, but I think it has to be a positive step towards a healthy relationship.


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## Conrad

As soon as you receive criticism while doing each of those tasks, stiffen, walk away, and never do them again until the matter gets resolved.

When she starts nagging as to why you "aren't helping", remain FULLY in control of your emotions and flatly say, "I have much to think about."


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## seeking sanity

How about this, said with a smile:

"Darling, if you think there is another man out there would will do the dishes to your standards and put up your *****ing, then I invite you to go find him. Until then, I expect you to treat me with some respect."

Then go back to putting the dishes away. 

This sounds like resentment and coming from some unmet needs she has. The usual advice is the marriage builder questionnaires, but truthfully I don't know if that stuff really works with an angry, unwilling spouse. 

Calle Zorro has some interesting material, that may help you. 

Married And Happy


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## nice777guy

Do you normally empty the dishwasher, or were you trying to do something nice?

Maybe I'm missing something, but some things HAVE to be done. I think you continue doing what you HAVE to do - which at that point means to clean the water up off of the floor - and THEN turn on the emotional air conditioner.

And what happens when emptying the dishwasher turns into a pissing match?

After our second daughter was born, my wife was dealing with some post partum issues that lingered for quite some time. I went to a therapist at one point and was discussing how we would getting into pissing matches over caring for the kids. I felt that because she was home, it was her job. She was depressed and felt she just couldn't do it. The therapist basically told me that since *I* was an equal partner in deciding to have kids, that *I* should do whatever needs to be done. Kids aren't the Dishwasher of course. The dishwasher won't get psychologically scarred later in life because Mommy and Daddy used to fight over who had to empty him. But still, you do what you HAVE to do.

Keeps bugging me though - you gotta clean the water mess up because its just the right thing to do. Just don't over-react in that moment.


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## Deejo

There shouldn't be any pissing matches. There can only be a pissing match if you choose to participate - and it's a bad choice. Detach and defer.

On a side note ... all therapists are not created equal. I took your therapists advice too ... I did everything that needed to be done. And the ex simply sat back and watched ...

If you believe that you have ownership of something, than so be it. Own it. But based on the exchange rd outlined, that entire exchange was her being a parent and him being a child. It was a flat out nut-punch. It's unnecessary. It's unwarranted. It's wrong.

I would have agreed that she should do the dishes and leave the dishwasher and water for her to deal with - as she keenly pointed out.


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## Warbaby

Ah the Dishwasher...
I put the bowls in upside down once (which I will still argue is technically right side up) and got fired from using the dishwasher, you know what.... I can live without doing dishes


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## r2d210

I don't always clear out the dishwasher. I do if I have time, and in my mind it is exactly like you suggested. To help out. I do think that Deejo is correct in identyifying it as a parent/child thing. Her mother is just like that to her dad and her dad has never stood up to her. So, my wife married a man like her dad, me. Again, I'm at a point where I'm willing to take the steps to change this.


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## nice777guy

Warbaby said:


> Ah the Dishwasher...
> I put the bowls in upside down once (which I will still argue is technically right side up) and got fired from using the dishwasher, you know what.... I can live without doing dishes


If you're going THAT route - I once put the liquid soap that you use when handwashing dishes in the in dishwasher; was right after we got married and were moving in - didn't have the DW soap yet. I knew it wasn't right, but for some reason, I just wanted to see what happened.

Think we had to run it about 10 times before all of the bubbles were finally gone! And sadly, I was not fired from DW duty!


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## nice777guy

r2d210 said:


> I don't always clear out the dishwasher. I do if I have time, and in my mind it is exactly like you suggested. To help out. I do think that Deejo is correct in identyifying it as a parent/child thing. Her mother is just like that to her dad and her dad has never stood up to her. So, my wife married a man like her dad, me. Again, I'm at a point where I'm willing to take the steps to change this.


I agree that you walk away from the DW - but after you clean up the mess. Don't finish emptying it.

It just sounds so passive aggressive to take a stand that you'll no longer empty the DW. Pissing matches aren't always shouting matches.

Seems like there should be a next step that goes beyond just creating distance and refusing to do things when criticised or treated poorly. Because some of those things - regardless of her tone or attitude - have to get done.


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## SimplyAmorous

r2d210 said:


> Her mother is just like that to her dad and her dad has never stood up to her. So, my wife married a man like her dad, me. Again, I'm at a point where I'm willing to take the steps to change this.


 Good for you ! Expect her to get bit**ier at first, she will outrightly be shocked even !! But whatever you do, stand firm against her, do not be moved, listen to these guys, your wife needs some hard hard lessons. Be determined to let the chips fall where they may. She has been pathetically spitting on your boundaries for years. (and as Deejo pointed out, you have so easily let her do this !!).


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## Trenton

It sounds to me like the problem here is your wife's desire to control small things (not necessarily you) in order to continue to feel in control of her life.

Once you understand that and don't feel personally disrespected or admonished, you can look to see what other things she does that make her feel as if she is in control and help her to feel that control so that she can relax and be more content and able to love you for being a part of that contentment.

I do this so I might just be projecting but it's worth a shot because you'll have a chance to look at a possibility of how your wife works. Is your wife a perfectionist? Does she like to have things done a certain way? Both signs that this is how she gets order and contentment out of her life.

For example, my husband will do laundry on weekends because I always complain about laundry. During the week he can't help out because he works major hours and I'm home so it makes sense that it's a job I took up but I still HATE it. At the same time, when he began doing it I was driven crazy because I have a system that works for me and it helps me to feel like there is some order in my chaotic life.

I started to make naggy little comments about how he did the laundry. Then I realized what the problem was and asked him if he could do me a favor and if doing jobs I normally do let me show him how I do them so that his work truly was helpful.

Can you confront your wife and tell her you are just trying to be helpful but recognize she has her way of doing things and also recognize that you are more than happy to learn what those are so that your help is actually helpful and not a source of resentment?

This is exactly what my husband does after we talked about it and it was such a freaking relief. Now I have much needed help on the weekends and I am confident in him doing it and enjoy the help rather than resent it.


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## Conrad

nice777guy said:


> I agree that you walk away from the DW - but after you clean up the mess. Don't finish emptying it.
> 
> It just sounds so passive aggressive to take a stand that you'll no longer empty the DW. Pissing matches aren't always shouting matches.
> 
> Seems like there should be a next step that goes beyond just creating distance and refusing to do things when criticised or treated poorly. Because some of those things - regardless of her tone or attitude - have to get done.


You sound like such a nice guy.

MEM and Wolf point out that the body language associated with receiving a fitness test is the key thing. No need to engage verbally and get flustered.

Just withdraw without drama. Emotional a/c


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## Trenton

Conrad said:


> You sound like such a nice guy.
> 
> MEM and Wolf point out that the body language associated with receiving a fitness test is the key thing. No need to engage verbally and get flustered.
> 
> Just withdraw without drama. Emotional a/c


What if this is not really a fitness test for the man but more about the personality of the woman? I believe if this is the case (and the only way to understand if it is/is with open communication) then the wife will feel more support by him showing open understanding and a willingness to work with her personality. Then the man does not seem like a burden/child but a support/provider/comforter.


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## Trenton

SadSamIAm said:


> I kind of understand your laundry analogy, but I don't get how it relates to the dishwasher.
> 
> How can someone unload a dishwasher incorrectly? How can someone help, but get a little water on the floor? I am sure he didn't mean to spill water on the floor?
> 
> The point is how she talks to him. The tone and the message is meant to make him feel little. Like a child.


Because the desire to control is what her problem is, not her husband or the dishwasher. It's her way of feeling comfortable in her own skin, or rather it's my way of feeling comfortable in my own skin and I think common in type A personalities. If he can help her feel in control and comfortable and retain his dignity and authority then he will become something amazing to her rather than an ***hole or child. If my husband got distant as a result of my stupid admonishment about something trivial I would resent him. If he mopped up the mess and apologized like a child I would resent him. The only win/win is him recognizing that I have this need to control to feel comfortable and his willingness to try to help me with my issue.

This is how it is with my husband. I'm just putting it out there. It's possible it is just a fitness test but if it's not, walking away will just build larger walls between the two of them and doing what she says will just earn her disgust.


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## Warbaby

nice777guy said:


> Think we had to run it about 10 times before all of the bubbles were finally gone! And sadly, I was not fired from DW duty!


Quitters never win  JK 


@r2d210
I agree with those above, I really like the term emotional air conditioner. My wife at times is waaay controling, and I was attempting to give you a little humor. If you can look at it from the perspective of "I am okay with my wife not letting me empty the dishwasher."

To answer your question about putting your foot down without coming off like a jerk. IMHO, pick another place to draw the line and let this one go. Too much time has probably already gone by to even bring up the DW. Sometimes the **** that piss me off the most doesnt even register on the wifes radar, and then when I try to talk her through it I more than likley appear childish in bringing it up. Respecfully let it go.


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## Deejo

Wife isn't here. Wife isn't who we're dealing with. If she's frustrated and demeaning him is her way of dealing with it, then his decision to detach IS open communication.

The difference in your circumstance is that YOU addressed it. He was helping. You didn't approve of the manner of his help - and chose to address it with him. He was already doing what he needed to do. The problem was _yours_, not his, and you handled it appropriately.

r2d's wife was dismissive and disrespectful. She basically told him he's useless and incapable. No pardon. No excuse. 

The dishwasher is immaterial. Would have been the exact same tone of exchange had he made toast and left some crumbs on the counter, or hadn't put the butter away when she walked in.

And control is EXACTLY the problem. He needs to take some back. You still see this model as adversarial. If you are establishing boundaries, conflict and adversarial exchanges need to occur, but conflict itself is not the goal.

Had you reacted similarly to r2d's wife and had your husband stopped doing laundry on the weekend you would have only had yourself to blame - but you are indicating that you still would have blamed him?


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## Trenton

Deejo said:


> Wife isn't here. Wife isn't who we're dealing with. If she's frustrated and demeaning him is her way of dealing with it, then his decision to detach IS open communication.
> 
> The difference in your circumstance is that YOU addressed it. He was helping. You didn't approve of the manner of his help - and chose to address it with him. He was already doing what he needed to do. The problem was _yours_, not his, and you handled it appropriately.
> 
> r2d's wife was dismissive and disrespectful. She basically told him he's useless and incapable. No pardon. No excuse.
> 
> The dishwasher is immaterial. Would have been the exact same tone of exchange had he made toast and left some crumbs on the counter, or hadn't put the butter away when she walked in.
> 
> And control is EXACTLY the problem. He needs to take some back. You still see this model as adversarial. If you are establishing boundaries, conflict and adversarial exchanges need to occur, but conflict itself is not the goal.
> 
> Had you reacted similarly to r2d's wife and had your husband stopped doing laundry on the weekend you would have only had yourself to blame - but you are indicating that you still would have blamed him?


The wife isn't here but the problem is the wife. Controlling and belittling behavior is all on her, not him. How he chooses to deal with it will make all the difference in how she feels about him.

My husband and I only addressed it after I made several comments just like the wife in this case and it's not just the laundry...it's the toast, the dishes, where we go to dinner...any behavior that I use to feel comfortable in my own skin and as a way to control my life. 

Is control really what he wants in this situation or does he want a happy wife who admires him and feels safe and bonded to him?

Had my husband stopped doing the laundry I would have blamed him for not hearing me, for adding to my feelings of insecurity and lack of control in my life rather than helping me to get over them and hearing what I'm actually doing.

It took me a long time to recognize the problem was mine and had little to do with the laundry. In this case the wife has no idea but the way my husband deals with things shows me that he loves and understands me. 

You suggest the husband needs to regain control but this will just make the wife feel more out of control, hence the resentment. If he walks away continually in circumstances like these she will feel he's not her equal and is a child. That's why I suggest the only answer is to deal with the true problem...which is the wife's desire for control in her life and her feelings of insecurity when her control is challenged. Believe me, she's not happy either so the control game played as you suggest is a lose/lose situation and a game that will continue much like the War of the Roses.


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## Deejo

It's unfortunate you see it that way.


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## nice777guy

Conrad said:


> You sound like such a nice guy.
> 
> MEM and Wolf point out that the body language associated with receiving a fitness test is the key thing. No need to engage verbally and get flustered.
> 
> Just withdraw without drama. Emotional a/c



Agree about the withdraw - and arguing is useless. But still say you clean the floor first - because its the right thing to do.

Parenting issues lately - talking a lot about natural consequences. Don't overparent. If your kid is an ass to other kids, they'll stop playing with them until your kid figures it out. etc, etc

Seems the natural consequence of never emptying the DW again is that no one will have clean dishes unless his wife owns up to her issues.

So do you just keep grabbing paper plates at that point?

Part of me still thinks you empty the damn thing because it HAS to be done. Unless you've addressed it head on and discussed what's going on, then you're just being a little passive aggressive baby who is now ignoring his responsibilities BECAUSE of his wife. She's still driving the action.

Maybe one of the above posters was right when saying to let this battle go, but be ready to deal with the next one. Don't go out of your way to be 'nice'.

Seems to me that if you stop doing something you consider to be REASONABLE because of another person's UNREASONABLE reaction, then you are still being manipulated.


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## SadSamIAm

Trenton, you remind me a lot of my wife, and her need to control. It seems like your husband handles it well. But I don't get what he is actually doing.

What should have he done when his wife told him he was useless because he didn't unload the dishwasher to her specifications?

What would your husband have done?


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## Conrad

>>And control is EXACTLY the problem. He needs to take some back. You still see this model as adversarial. If you are establishing boundaries, conflict and adversarial exchanges need to occur, but conflict itself is not the goal.<<

Conflict doesn't have to be "the goal".

It is already present.

The question becomes what is an effective response to that sort of treatment.


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## SimplyAmorous

I understand what Trenton is trying to say - I really do- alot of this IS the wife's problem. ( I know cause I am capable of being very controlling if I want or choose to be) -- *But this guy can not Change his wife, he can only change his Reaction. * 

Come on Trenton, me & you both well know IF WE was treated like that, how long do you think it would last? I know for me, I would not last at all. I would not walk away with my tail between my legs if I was belittled and made to feel like a child when I was trying to help the spouse accomplist something. 

I am not saying he needs to STOP helping but either that OR his reaction MUST change as hers obviously isn't going too. 

Something's gotta give.


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## r2d210

I agree it is a control issue. She is type A and everything has it's place and purpose. However, I have never stood up to her. Everything I do around the house is done her way! What is hard is she complains about how hard it is to keep the house up! Even with all I do to help. For me it does seem like a partent/child scenerio becuase she is always correcting and teaching how it should be done according to her. I want to deal with that and after trying for years to do it her way, I'm ready to stand up and in a sense....demand respect! Not to be a jerk, or get in an arguement. The body language, the boundry is something that once she sees from me will open up that dialog of communication!


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## Trenton

SadSamIAm said:


> Trenton, you remind me a lot of my wife, and her need to control. It seems like your husband handles it well. But I don't get what he is actually doing.
> 
> What should have he done when his wife told him he was useless because he didn't unload the dishwasher to her specifications?
> 
> What would your husband have done?


My husband wouldn't have done anything. He would have been quiet and finished what he was doing without comment knowing full well the problem was mine and not a reflection on him or his ability to do the dishes. 

He would later call me out on it and explain that he understands that being controlling is my way of feeling secure with myself/with my family/with him and that he wants me to feel exactly that way. He wouldn't take it personal which is really hard to do but he's definitely laid back and confident so it appeared easy for him.

Honestly, he gives me a look now if I start to get this way and we laugh because sometimes the things I say are utterly ridiculous. After some time when he stopped responding and started recognizing how I feel, I began to trust him and then there was no need for me to try to control stupid things. This opened up a lot for us and I was able to hand control back over to him and feel happy and secure.

Honestly, it still happens some times and he still has to call me out but reiterating that he wants me to feel happy and secure always works.


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## seeking sanity

Sorry guys, withdrawing is equivalent of pouting and not the best strategy IMO. 

Here's the thing: The dishes need to be unloaded. She can complain about it all she likes, but it's his house too and he has a right to put the dishes away. Walking away is being a baby. Finishing the job and ignoring her mood is better. Confronting her in a non-emotional way is best.


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## seeking sanity

Oh hey Trenton agree's - she just got her post up before me!


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## Trenton

r2d210 said:


> I agree it is a control issue. She is type A and everything has it's place and purpose. However, I have never stood up to her. Everything I do around the house is done her way! What is hard is she complains about how hard it is to keep the house up! Even with all I do to help. For me it does seem like a partent/child scenerio becuase she is always correcting and teaching how it should be done according to her. I want to deal with that and after trying for years to do it her way, I'm ready to stand up and in a sense....demand respect! Not to be a jerk, or get in an arguement. The body language, the boundry is something that once she sees from me will open up that dialog of communication!


Please report back and let me know if this works, it very well might. Each relationship is different. It wouldn't work for me. I would see you as a threat to me and not a support. I can't reiterate enough that this is just me. I would fight your standing up every step of the way and I would resent you till I would want to walk away and I'd willingly walk away fast and without looking back.


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## Trenton

seeking sanity said:


> Oh hey Trenton agree's - she just got her post up before me!


:smthumbup:


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## nice777guy

r2d210 said:


> I agree it is a control issue. She is type A and everything has it's place and purpose. However, I have never stood up to her. Everything I do around the house is done her way! What is hard is she complains about how hard it is to keep the house up! Even with all I do to help. For me it does seem like a partent/child scenerio becuase she is always correcting and teaching how it should be done according to her. I want to deal with that and after trying for years to do it her way, I'm ready to stand up and in a sense....demand respect! Not to be a jerk, or get in an arguement. The body language, the boundry is something that once she sees from me will open up that dialog of communication!


I think you should start by creating some distance. Do you get out of the house much? Do you have any hobbies? Do you work out? Find some way to get away a bit more. Build your self-esteem up a bit before you start to kick this into a higher gear. You'll feel better about yourself and she will sense it. And the better you feel, the less you "need" her approval.

And its a hell of a lot better than sitting around having a silent argument over who is not going to empty the dishwasher.


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## Deejo

seeking sanity said:


> Sorry guys, withdrawing is equivalent of pouting and not the best strategy IMO.


Dishwasher STILL isn't the issue. It's just a platform. And it isn't pouting if you walk away with a smile.


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## Deejo

Trenton said:


> I would fight your standing up every step of the way and I would resent you till I would want to walk away and I'd willingly walk away fast and without looking back.


All in order to what? 

_To send him the message that you don't like what he's doing and you want him to stop._

I'm still willing to go with whatever works, but your method smacks of blaming the victim.


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## Trenton

SimplyAmorous said:


> I understand what Trenton is trying to say - I really do- alot of this IS the wife's problem. ( I know cause I am capable of being very controlling if I want or choose to be) -- *But this guy can not Change his wife, he can only change his Reaction. *
> 
> Come on Trenton, me & you both well know IF WE was treated like that, how long do you think it would last? I know for me, I would not last at all. I would not walk away with my tail between my legs if I was belittled and made to feel like a child when I was trying to help the spouse accomplist something.
> 
> I am not saying he needs to STOP helping but either that OR his reaction MUST change as hers obviously isn't going too.
> 
> Something's gotta give.


I see what you're saying but disagree. My husband is opposite in me in this regard so he would never behave this way to me. 

I'm suggesting his reaction changes to continuing what he's doing without confrontation or response at that time, not that he does nothing. Then he confronts her at a time that is less emotional and addresses her problem in a way that is not judgmental. He needs to accept first that this is about her and not him.

Tough to do for anyone? Yes. Why do you think I admire my husband so much?


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## r2d210

I have several hobbies. But here is the problem. My hobbies are viewed as selfish and disrespectful to her. I love to run, however I basically have been forced to run when it effects her the least. So, when I run I run on my lunch hour or in the morning when she is asleep. She don't seem to care as much if she don't know about it. Any other time is taking away from time with her and the kids. (Two teen age boys who could care less if I go for a run!) Anyway, I know this sounds backwards, but I do feel like I am a confident person outside of my marriage. I could explain more, but for the sake of this discussion, I will leave it at that. Hope that helps!


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## Trenton

Deejo said:


> All in order to what?
> 
> _To send him the message that you don't like what he's doing and you want him to stop._
> 
> I'm still willing to go with whatever works, but your method smacks of blaming the victim.


My thinking would end up like this:
The relationship is falling apart, there is no communication and I'm unhappy. I'm not getting what I need. It's toxic and makes me feel insecure and crappy. I want to get the heck out. I resent and dislike my husband and his very existence is making me sick.

It's not blame at all. It's two people in an unhappy relationship that can't find a way to reconnect and value one another. Who wants to stay there? It doesn't matter if it's the dishes or the bedroom. It doesn't matter if it's Custard's last stand. You work together and grow together or you fall apart.


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## Trenton

r2d210 said:


> I have several hobbies. But here is the problem. My hobbies are viewed as selfish and disrespectful to her. I love to run, however I basically have been forced to run when it effects her the least. So, when I run I run on my lunch hour or in the morning when she is asleep. She don't seem to care as much if she don't know about it. Any other time is taking away from time with her and the kids. (Two teen age boys who could care less if I go for a run!) Anyway, I know this sounds backwards, but I do feel like I am a confident person outside of my marriage. I could explain more, but for the sake of this discussion, I will leave it at that. Hope that helps!


Your wife is desperate for control. No wonder you are unhappy but I am willing to guess she is equally unhappy. Does she not want to run with you? Do you have any shared hobbies that you both enjoy together? Have you told her honestly how you feel in a way that is not blaming and confrontational?


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## SadSamIAm

Trenton said:


> I see what you're saying but disagree. My husband is opposite in me in this regard so he would never behave this way to me.
> 
> I'm suggesting his reaction changes to continuing what he's doing without confrontation or response at that time, not that he does nothing. Then he confronts her at a time that is less emotional and addresses her problem in a way that is not judgmental. He needs to accept first that this is about her and not him.
> 
> Tough to do for anyone? Yes. Why do you think I admire my husband so much?


I don't get how you understand it is your problem when he talks to you about it and you seem to understand how ridiculous you are at times. But you would fight your husband if he actually stood up to you when you did it and demanded that you respect him. 

Why wouldn't you see it is your problem either way and try to be nicer?

I have tried every method from ignoring, to talking to her, to getting angry, to not helping with things, to helping more with things. Nothing helps. She can still be in a mood and treat me like I am a total loser. In fact it happens most every day.

The demeaning treatment and the lack of intimacy has me at a point where I am going to walk. And to be totally honest, I have no idea what her reaction will be.


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## Deejo

Trenton said:


> You work together and grow together or you fall apart.


And my thinking is that sometimes it's the latter that has to happen in order to grow.

Glad it's working for you and your husband. I'm never going to minimize results if everyone is happy.


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## nice777guy

r2d210 said:


> I have several hobbies. But here is the problem. My hobbies are viewed as selfish and disrespectful to her. I love to run, however I basically have been forced to run when it effects her the least. So, when I run I run on my lunch hour or in the morning when she is asleep. She don't seem to care as much if she don't know about it. Any other time is taking away from time with her and the kids. (Two teen age boys who could care less if I go for a run!) Anyway, I know this sounds backwards, but I do feel like I am a confident person outside of my marriage. I could explain more, but for the sake of this discussion, I will leave it at that. Hope that helps!


I understand. You are giving up something healthy that you enjoy to spend more time with a woman who doesn't respect you and your two teenage boys who are probably busy texting or surfing the 'net or whatever.

I think you have excuses, but no real reasons to adjust to her schedule. And I'm only calling you out on this because I've been there and done that.

Sounds like she's told you indirectly when you can and can't run - and you've abided. I say tonight you go home, finish emptying the dishwasher  , change clothes, and casually say "going for a quick jog" as you are slamming the door shut behind you.

Unless she jogs after you, you'll at least have some peace and quiet.


----------



## r2d210

She struggles for hobbies. Running for her is like going to the dentist. Hates it! She is fighting for control, always has. I'm compliant and have continually taken the kick in the nuts for years! I think I have been like your husband (Trenton) and even tried to find out how to do it her way. I offered to wipe up the water! I honestly think she has no idea what she sounds like. Her mind is going a hundred miles an hour, she wants things done her way and she speaks her mind. Untill I let her know that what she is saying hurts, or is at the very least dis-respectful, she will continue doing as she has always done! Be controlling...right? I still like the body language idea. Not to be mean or pick a fight, but it will be so out of character that I think she may think about what she said.


----------



## nice777guy

r2d210 said:


> Untill I let her know that what she is saying hurts, or is at the very least dis-respectful, she will continue doing as she has always done!


I don't think you are going to be able to talk yourself out of a problem that you behaved yourself into.

Talking is just bad in these situations. If she sees you make changes she'll start to take you more seriously.


----------



## Trenton

SadSamIAm said:


> I don't get how you understand it is your problem when he talks to you about it and you seem to understand how ridiculous you are at times. But you would fight your husband if he actually stood up to you when you did it and demanded that you respect him.
> 
> Why wouldn't you see it is your problem either way and try to be nicer?
> 
> I have tried every method from ignoring, to talking to her, to getting angry, to not helping with things, to helping more with things. Nothing helps. She can still be in a mood and treat me like I am a total loser. In fact it happens most every day.
> 
> The demeaning treatment and the lack of intimacy has me at a point where I am going to walk. And to be totally honest, I have no idea what her reaction will be.


It took me a long time to recognize what was going on and a lot of patience on the part of my husband. I laugh about it now if he calls me out because I recognize it is my problem now. We never suffered from a lack of sexual intimacy but that's another topic but it might have helped my husband in hanging in there. Honestly, I'm still learning and just started getting better. TAM has helped me a lot to see what a ***** I can be.

There is no excuse for anyone to treat you like a total loser almost every day. If I were you I would be honest with her and explain exactly what you explained here. Tell her you are ready to walk but at the same time you love her and want things to change so that she can stop feeling so in need of control, stop belittling you and you can enjoy your lives together. Either way, make it perfectly clear that you won't tolerate this type of marriage.

Even if it is her controlling issues that are the core of your problem, you can't be expected to give up yourself and stay in a relationship that causes you to feel like such crap-just my honest opinion.


----------



## Trenton

r2d210 said:


> She struggles for hobbies. Running for her is like going to the dentist. Hates it! She is fighting for control, always has. I'm compliant and have continually taken the kick in the nuts for years! I think I have been like your husband (Trenton) and even tried to find out how to do it her way. I offered to wipe up the water! I honestly think she has no idea what she sounds like. Her mind is going a hundred miles an hour, she wants things done her way and she speaks her mind. Untill I let her know that what she is saying hurts, or is at the very least dis-respectful, she will continue doing as she has always done! Be controlling...right? I still like the body language idea. Not to be mean or pick a fight, but it will be so out of character that I think she may think about what she said.


I'd run and continue with your hobby when you want to. Tell her when she actually acts like being around you is fun and enjoyable that you'll be more than happy to run at a different time for a chance to be with her. I just want you to have a chance to see that her controlling issues come from a feeling of insecurity in the relationship and is something she has to recognize and overcome in order to be connected to you in a good relationship.


----------



## Conrad

r2d210 said:


> She struggles for hobbies. Running for her is like going to the dentist. Hates it! She is fighting for control, always has. I'm compliant and have continually taken the kick in the nuts for years! I think I have been like your husband (Trenton) and even tried to find out how to do it her way. I offered to wipe up the water! I honestly think she has no idea what she sounds like. Her mind is going a hundred miles an hour, she wants things done her way and she speaks her mind. Untill I let her know that what she is saying hurts, or is at the very least dis-respectful, she will continue doing as she has always done! Be controlling...right? I still like the body language idea. Not to be mean or pick a fight, but it will be so out of character that I think she may think about what she said.


It doesn't even have to be a dirty look.

What it CANNOT be is puppy dog eyes and attempting to reason in a whiny voice like "C'mon honey, I'm only trying to help"

When she asks you why you're not helping, calmly say "because it doesn't help us for me to help."

Let her overreact.

If it gets too brutal. Quietly rise from your chair - and leave the room.


----------



## AFEH

r2d210 said:


> BIGBADWOLF....I especially need your imput!
> 
> Scenerio.....
> 
> I get up this morning and I'm emptying the dish washer.....
> 
> Wife walks in....
> 
> Wife: "Uh oh, you dropped water on the floor. That's why I do the dishes, you aren't carefull enough!"
> 
> Me: "Don't worry, I will wipe it up"
> 
> Wife: "It's too late, I will do it when I get home. Besides, you wouldn't have noticed it if I wouldn't have told you about it."
> 
> Learning to change myself so that she can change is truly what I desire. I just don't know how. Is it appropriate to put the foot down here (not in a jerk way) and say, "listen, I'm helping and I will clean it up!"?
> 
> What does a MAN do different here that says "I Love YOU" but your treating me like a child? Any input would really help!



I would see that as a great opportunity for a game of golf and a quite drink after. About 5 hours away from home. Every time my wife spoke to me like that it would be a game of golf or off fishing for a while.

But my wife never spoke to me like that.

Honestly I just can’t believe some of you guys. It’s a joke, a wind up right?

Bob


----------



## r2d210

I wish it was. Maybe this is part of my problem, but I can't get past the element of love here. Is it loving to leave for 5 hours over spilled water? What does that say to her? Every time you open your mouth in a negative way towards me I'm out of here? Come on Man! I would not want her to leave if I spoke negative to her. I love my wife and I want to work with her, not against her. I see a man being dominate in saying your peace and not doing the dishes, but I don't think it is right to leave for 5 hours. Am I wrong here?


----------



## Conrad

r2d210 said:


> I wish it was. Maybe this is part of my problem, but I can't get past the element of love here. Is it loving to leave for 5 hours over spilled water? What does that say to her? Every time you open your mouth in a negative way towards me I'm out of here? Come on Man! I would not want her to leave if I spoke negative to her. I love my wife and I want to work with her, not against her. I see a man being dominate in saying your peace and not doing the dishes, but I don't think it is right to leave for 5 hours. Am I wrong here?


As I read your words, I sense fear.

If you are afraid of losing her, this will not work and she will bore into your psyche and continue with one fitness test after another until you're completely cut off from any sort of physical intimacy. That's the ultimate "fitness test" - how you would respond to that.

I suggest that if you cannot implement what I'm talking about.... that you get yourself a good counselor and start talking through this stuff.

You need to respect yourself before she will even begin to respect you.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

r2d210 said:


> I wish it was. Maybe this is part of my problem, but I can't get past the element of love here. Is it loving to leave for 5 hours over spilled water? What does that say to her? Every time you open your mouth in a negative way towards me I'm out of here? Come on Man! I would not want her to leave if I spoke negative to her. I love my wife and I want to work with her, not against her. I see a man being dominate in saying your peace and not doing the dishes, but I don't think it is right to leave for 5 hours. Am I wrong here?


This is why it helps to listen to much of what you read on here with a grain of salt, you know your wife better than anyone. 

If you was married to someone like Trenton, even ME, this would probably not go over very well. It would PEEEEEE me off terribly but then I might consider how My behavior brought it on too. BUt I would much rather have my husband snap back at me , then up & leave me in the dust. But if this was his reaction, I would eventually need to TALK deeply about the way we are handling our anger & hurt towards each other, I would want change, cause I would not want him just up & leaving every time He thought I was being "pi**y". 

Some women might be reached better with leaving, some would prefer complaince in the moment -then bringing it up later (Trenton) and some like me would prefer to be told off (or rather kindly reminded I am getting out of hand with my attitude) - but staying and dealing with me & what we are trying to get accomplished. 

We are a hard breed to figure out, aren't we!


----------



## r2d210

AFEH said:


> I would see that as a great opportunity for a game of golf and a quite drink after. About 5 hours away from home. Every time my wife spoke to me like that it would be a game of golf or off fishing for a while.
> 
> But my wife never spoke to me like that.
> 
> Honestly I just can’t believe some of you guys. It’s a joke, a wind up right?
> 
> Bob


Conrad, I think I understand your point. I'm referring to the quote of going fishing or playing golf for 5 hours. Maybe your talking about the same thing as him, but if I understand you right......I cannot have any fear of leaving her. If I take this step, I ride it to the end wherever it leads? It's like an all or nothing, do or die scenerio? In other words, this is what it is going to take to take back my marriage.


----------



## WhereAmI

Next time she points out a small error you've made while trying to help her, kindly ask if she'd like you to leave that chore up to her. If she responds with sarcasm, don't acknowledge it as such. Respond to her like it's exactly what she means. "No problem, I'll leave it up to you. If you change your mind in the future, just ask!" 

Refuse to play her control game. Keep your cool.


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## nice777guy

Conrad said:


> As I read your words, I sense fear.
> 
> If you are afraid of losing her, this will not work and she will bore into your psyche and continue with one fitness test after another until you're completely cut off from any sort of physical intimacy. That's the ultimate "fitness test" - how you would respond to that.
> 
> I suggest that if you cannot implement what I'm talking about.... that you get yourself a good counselor and start talking through this stuff.
> 
> You need to respect yourself before she will even begin to respect you.


:iagree:

I think my marriage was "saved" when my wife realized that I was willing and able to move on without her. But first, I had to actually get to that point. There was no magic conversation or moment where I finally found the perfect words to convince her that I really could move on - she just kind of sensed it when I quit chasing the marriage and became less responsive. 

Until then, she had no incentive to change.


----------



## nice777guy

r2d210 said:


> I cannot have any fear of leaving her. If I take this step, I ride it to the end wherever it leads? It's like an all or nothing, do or die scenerio? In other words, this is what it is going to take to take back my marriage.


:smthumbup:


----------



## Conrad

r2d210 said:


> Conrad, I think I understand your point. I'm referring to the quote of going fishing or playing golf for 5 hours. Maybe your talking about the same thing as him, but if I understand you right......I cannot have any fear of leaving her. If I take this step, I ride it to the end wherever it leads? It's like an all or nothing, do or die scenerio? In other words, this is what it is going to take to take back my marriage.


Take back your marriage (actually, it's likely you'll be earning it for the first time) by being the magnificent man you were born to be. I cannot put it any better than this (from poster MEM)

The rules 

-------------------------------------------------------------

If you are a man and you want to have a passionate relationship with your wife:
1. ALL dominance starts in-house. That means you learn to control YOUR emotions - especially the two biggest enemies fear and uncontrolled anger. 
2. True control of emotions enables great self control of your behavior. Not just the words that issue from your mouth, but your body language.
3. The baseline against which you measure behavior is the golden rule. _*Do NOT allow people to treat you worse than you would treat them*_. 
4. Acknowledge that without respect you have nothing. ALL respect emanates from in-house. If you don't respect yourself, well you can finish that sentence. 
5. Earn respect by performing, _demand respect by inflicting swift and sure consequences when treated in an unacceptable manner._6. Be empathetic and supportive and loving when your W is hurting.
7. Be stern and firm when she is taking her bad day/bad mood out on you.
8. Be fun to be around. Playful, upbeat, fun and funny.
9. _*Be around less and make it clear why when you are not being treated fairly*_.
10. YOU ARE ALLOWED TO HAVE NEEDS. Express them. YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO BE NEEDY. There is a giant difference between the two.
11. Learn your W. A husband who says "no one can understand women, does not understand his wife. This lack of knowledge is often fatal to the marriage" Pay attention - she is likely fairly consistent. 
12. _*Accept that your W will love you MORE when you assert yourself in a rational, strong, firm and consistent manner*_. 
13. Learn to talk a LOT LESS and communicate much more and much better with body language.


----------



## greenpearl

R2d210,

I think you are going to have a difficult war to fight.

I believe that your wife is over 40 years old, it is difficult to train an old dog. 

I was discussing this with my husband, if you have been a yes man for many years in your marriage, suddenly you tough up, she doesn't understand what's going on. She has being controlling for all of those years, she thinks that she has power on you, suddenly if you start not doing things her way, she'l get furious, she'll resent you, she will think that you are challenging her authority, too bad that she thinks this way, but I guess that's what will be in her mind. Then she'll look for ways to make your life miserable. Never offend women, they are narrow minded and they can't let things go when they are offended, they look for ways to get revenge. 

But how can you reverse all this disrespect from your wife, and gain the kind of respect you want from your wife, it is going to be a difficult task. You can take an extreme step, or you can use methods might take you many years, but I don't think you have time to wait and this may not work since changing others is almost impossible and we can only change ourselves. 

The extreme step is to tell her that you want to start the pursuing step all over again, I mean telling her that you are not happy with her, you are not happy with the way she talks to you, you are not happy with the way she treats you, you have had enough, you are about to give up, if she doesn't make any dramastic change, you are not happy. But let her know that you are not quitting, it only means she might lose you now if she doesn't do anything to make you happy. Put her to a spot that she has to work hard now to keep you. 

Let her pursue you again, let her know that if she doesn't do anything to change herself, she is going to lose you as a wonderful husband and provider. 

Women tend to feel secure and relaxed when they think no matter what they do, their husband will love them unconditionally, stop giving her this kind of feeling, start to put her to a mind that she has to work hard to regain your love.


----------



## AFEH

I’m just not the sort of person who will be spoken to like a child or controlled. I’m just not that sort of person. It quite simply is not in my genes.

Here’s an example. I have a mate I played squash with once a week. I thoroughly enjoyed it, very competitive and a really good game. We’d been playing for about 6 months. I said at a dinner one evening “Still on for squash at 10 tomorrow?”. His wife stepped in and said “Your not playing squash tomorrow I’ve jobs lined up for you”. Know what? He didn’t play even though he’d agreed to play and knew nothing of the “jobs”.

About a month later as they were getting out of my car I said “Still ok for tomorrow?”. In jumped his wife again “He hasn’t asked me yet!”. I said to myself “A third time and that’s it”. It happened a third time and we haven’t played since. I absolutely refused to accept that my time was going to be controlled by his wife. My mate is a good husband, how he could let his wife get away with it I simply don’t know.

I have almost zero tolerance for belittling, demeaning, controlling women and I will do Nothing to Appease them.

That’s what you Nice Guys are doing. You are appeasing belittling, demeaning, controlling women.

And look where it’s got you. Seeking permission to go out for a run, or going for a run when your wife doesn’t know about it. That’s not “life”. At least not for me.

Bob


----------



## nice777guy

greenpearl said:


> Let her pursue you again, let her know that if she doesn't do anything to change herself, she is going to lose you as a wonderful husband and provider.
> 
> *Women tend to feel secure and relaxed when they think no matter what they do, their husband will love them unconditionally, stop giving her this kind of feeling, start to put her to a mind that she has to work hard to regain your love*.


MEM's list is great, but it can be overwhelming.

Work on yourself for now. Create some space. Become a little mysterious. Don't yell or argue - just DO. Detach. Build your confidence. Do NOT let her dictate your mood.


----------



## nice777guy

AFEH said:


> I’m just not the sort of person who will be spoken to like a child or controlled. I’m just not that sort of person. It quite simply is not in my genes.


Bob - I don't think too many of us came here from a state of perfection.

All of us married spouses with both good and bad points. No one is perfect. I'm sure that R2 has some very good reasons for wanting to keep his marriage alive. Something attracted him to this woman - I'm sure she's not ALL bad.


----------



## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> Bob - I don't think too many of us came here from a state of perfection.
> 
> All of us married spouses with both good and bad points. No one is perfect. I'm sure that R2 has some very good reasons for wanting to keep his marriage alive. Something attracted him to this woman - I'm sure she's not ALL bad.


I didn't say she's all bad NG. R2 doesn't seem too attracted to her now.

Bob


----------



## Conrad

AFEH said:


> I didn't say she's all bad NG. R2 doesn't seem too attracted to her now.
> 
> Bob


Rd is walking on eggshells in his own castle.

And, he's allowing it.

I wish him well in overcoming his fear of her.


----------



## r2d210

I have almost zero tolerance for belittling, demeaning, controlling women and I will do Nothing to Appease them.

That’s what you Nice Guys are doing. You are appeasing belittling, demeaning, controlling women.

And look where it’s got you. Seeking permission to go out for a run, or going for a run when your wife doesn’t know about it. That’s not “life”. At least not for me.

Bob[/QUOTE]

I have to wonder what brings you to this board? It sounds like your happy and so is your wife. No offense, but your advice is the most aggresive yet. Yeah, I'm a "nice guy," however I choose to not hang with people like you. Not out of fear, but it is the jerk factor. You will roll over people and not look back. Is that you? Just wondering, because although I appreciate your advice, I don't want that type of relationship. I understand being dominate, but your almost abusive....


----------



## AFEH

r2d210 said:


> I wish it was. Maybe this is part of my problem, but I can't get past the element of love here. Is it loving to leave for 5 hours over spilled water? What does that say to her? Every time you open your mouth in a negative way towards me I'm out of here? Come on Man! I would not want her to leave if I spoke negative to her. I love my wife and I want to work with her, not against her. I see a man being dominate in saying your peace and not doing the dishes, but I don't think it is right to leave for 5 hours. Am I wrong here?


R2 that was a figure of speech. It’s a way of saying I just wouldn’t tolerate that type of behaviour from anyone let alone my wife.

With respect, to me you are coming across as a lap dog. Some women like lap dogs. But I think you are saying you want to be more like a German Shepherd or some such dog. GS protect those closest to them and their borders, lap dogs can’t do that stuff. I don’t mean fierce and ferocious, just not a lap dog.

I really hope I’m not sounding unkind because that is not my intent. It’s more the type of behaviour, your responses to your wife’s demeaning and controlling behaviour is something I’ve only rarely witnessed.

Plus the more black and white I paint the picture you describe perhaps the more you can see just how foreign that behaviour is, at least to someone like me.

And yes of course, every time your wife belittles, demeans and control go out somewhere. It doesn’t mean “leave your wife”. And I’d imagine your wife will still be there when you get back home.

You have become institutionalised. By posting here you will begin to see just how much.

Bob


----------



## BigBadWolf

r2d210 said:


> BIGBADWOLF....I especially need your imput!
> 
> Scenerio.....
> 
> I get up this morning and I'm emptying the dish washer.....
> 
> Wife walks in....
> 
> Wife: "Uh oh, you dropped water on the floor. That's why I do the dishes, you aren't carefull enough!"
> 
> Me: "Don't worry, I will wipe it up"
> 
> Wife: "It's too late, I will do it when I get home. Besides, you wouldn't have noticed it if I wouldn't have told you about it."
> 
> Learning to change myself so that she can change is truly what I desire. I just don't know how. Is it appropriate to put the foot down here (not in a jerk way) and say, "listen, I'm helping and I will clean it up!"?
> 
> What does a MAN do different here that says "I Love YOU" but your treating me like a child? Any input would really help!


I see this thread is quickly evolving to a beneficial discussion on many important aspects of this type of exchange, so I will only be brief for now and step aside.

Your reaction, it can be many things, but this one thing it should never be. It should never be in any agreement with this kind of criticism.

The important point, is that whatever you do or respond, it shows in attitude that you are in control of both yourself and situation.

And this point, do not respond to fitness test with hostility or escalation. Only to diffuse the non issues, and show in your attitude and behavior the real issue, that you are a good man in control of yourself and your environment.

Even in direct confronation, state calmly and confidently at most what you expect, that you expect to be treated with respect. Otherwise, use words sparingly if at all.

The reality, your woman doesn't worry so much about the dishes, or the water. She is worried out of frustration that she is not FEELING that her man is in control of himself or his environment, and in this scenario is only being expressed as frustration of dishwater.

The solution, actions and behvaor AND ATTITUDE on your part to show your woman and allow HER TO FEEL that you are in control of yourself and your environment.

Some reactions: 

Affectionate: Calmly stop what you are doing, and walk over to your woman and approach her directly, maybe even embracing her arms below the shoulder (not gooey over the top full hug affectionate, but opposite NOT EVER with anger or hostility, but much like an adult trying to console an upset little girl would do) and looking into your womans eyes, say merely with a calm, low tone "I understand you are frustrated/exasperated/under pressure/upset, etc, but I want you first understand that I do not speak to you with such disrespect, so I expect the same treatment from you. And second, I will take care of business here so I do not want you to concern with it." 

Direct: Stop what you are doing, calmly directly, and firmly state similar words as above, but with physical distance and aloofness, and then afterwards maybe finish the dishes, maybe do something else (do not overthink this, just follow your own leadership).

Humorous retort: Maybe without even stopping washing the dishes or eye contact or even missing a beat say calmly but seriously "I know I spilled water dear, I did it on purpose so that after you fixed my sandwich I could watch you bend over to clean it up while I imagine what I am planning to do to you later (or bend over so I can give you a spanking, etc etc). "

Understand all these reactions, they are just suggestions depending on your mood, or what scenario is appropriate given the state of your relationship at the time. 

See though, that any reaction such as this, you retain your composure, you retain control of yourself and you retain control of the situation, and your attitude and integrity is in tact (you behaving like a man, not a boy, for no boy would say these things to his mother!).

So otherwise, I will catch up to these other replies as I can, as there is much good discussion going on.


----------



## AFEH

r2d210 said:


> I have almost zero tolerance for belittling, demeaning, controlling women and I will do Nothing to Appease them.
> 
> That’s what you Nice Guys are doing. You are appeasing belittling, demeaning, controlling women.
> 
> And look where it’s got you. Seeking permission to go out for a run, or going for a run when your wife doesn’t know about it. That’s not “life”. At least not for me.
> 
> Bob


I have to wonder what brings you to this board? It sounds like your happy and so is your wife. No offense, but your advice is the most aggresive yet. Yeah, I'm a "nice guy," however I choose to not hang with people like you. Not out of fear, but it is the jerk factor. You will roll over people and not look back. Is that you? Just wondering, because although I appreciate your advice, I don't want that type of relationship. I understand being dominate, but your almost abusive....[/QUOTE]



R2. I am not a Nice Guy!!!!!

If you want mothering, I'm no good for you.

Bob


----------



## r2d210

AFEH, fair enough.....I'm here to learn! BBW, I have been waiting for you to weigh in on this all day. I'm not dissapointed! Thanks for that and I look forward to hearing more from you!


----------



## Trenton

Greenpearl: It's hard to teach an old dog new tricks = Oh my gosh this cat wants to scratch your eyes out but since I'm a fairly old cat I am declawed.

Meeeowwwwwww hiss hiss

BBW, your advice is actually similar to my advice when I read it. The only difference is you believe she wants him to have control over himself and I believe her need for control is an expression that comes from her...possibly from how she was raised or dealing with issues that made her feel a fear of loss of control. She still wants him to have confidence, of course...confidence in himself and in her.


----------



## AFEH

Deejo said:


> Glad it's working for you and your husband. I'm never going to minimize results if everyone is happy.


That’s so true. R2 may indeed find it impossible to grow be the type of man he wants to be … and remain in his marriage. There are a few guys in the thread who have more or less said that …. “it’s change or it’s over” type of thing. So either consciously or somehow subconsciously they’ve recognised it.

And if they do become the man they want to be within their marriage, will the woman want to remain the wife of the “new man”. That is, will a woman used to “control” and I don’t really like to use the expression but I do it with respect, a lap dog, want to stay with somebody who isn’t a lap dog? Only time will tell.

Bob


----------



## Mulan4Peace

Warbaby said:


> Ah the Dishwasher...
> I put the bowls in upside down once (which I will still argue is technically right side up) and got fired from using the dishwasher, you know what.... I can live without doing dishes




You're so funny. I admire your humor.


----------



## BigBadWolf

SadSamIAm said:


> I don't believe this works. My wife says things like this to me all the time. I think she does it to cause me to get cold to her. She wants me to be cold to her, so that she doesn't have to get close to me.


No, she doesn't want you to be cold to her.

When she says words like that to you, she wants to EXPERIENCE you to stand for yourself and prove her words wrong.


----------



## Affaircare

r2d210 said:


> ... Learning to change myself so that she can change is truly what I desire. I just don't know how. Is it appropriate to put the foot down here (not in a jerk way) and say, "listen, I'm helping and I will clean it up!"?
> 
> What does a MAN do different here that says "I Love YOU" but your treating me like a child? Any input would really help!


Oh this is actually pretty easy. You changing yourself does not involve you becoming a doormat or losing your boundaries. You and your wife are equals and partners, she's not your parent. Thus, I'd suggest you work to change yourself but state a boundary by using a W-T-F-S. That stands for: "*W*hen you... I *T*hink... I *F*eel... *So* I'm going to ask...". Here is a perfect example: 

"*When you* criticize the job I do when I'm trying to help out here at home, *I think* 'Who wants to be criticized for helping?' and *I feel *discouraged from ever helping again and like you are treating me like my mother, not my wife. *So I'm going to ask* that if you see something like the water, you let me know and let me deal with it in my way in my timing because I am a fully responsible adult."


----------



## BigBadWolf

r2d210 said:


> I want to save my marriage. I do not want a divorce. I'm willing to take the steps necessary. But I don't know how and I want to learn! I have never tried the approach that Conrad is suggesting. My guess is, she would think very hard about the way she treated me. I will be trying it the next chance I get! I know it is baby steps but I see this kind of behavior from her every day. I try harder to be nicer, so that she will recipicate that, which she does not. I make the bed everyday, I make the coffee every day. I try very hard to pick up, help out, all why working all day long. I know that for me to stand up to her would be very different, but I think it has to be a positive step towards a healthy relationship.


This is nothing to dispute, any of it.

Understand though, the walk must match the talk.

Take some exercises, to see for yourself where you are at.

1. INventory your behavoir with your woman, everything you do or say or any interaction at all with your woman. Then look for any of these that would "fit" just as if your woman was your mother, and you her son, and anything fitting this, stop immediately. INstead, imagine if you were the father, and she your child daughter, how would the relationship appear? Move away from behavior as her being your mother, and closer to behavior as if her being daughter. When the relationship finds natural balance in this respect, the result will most likely be you will meet her somewhere in the middle, with respect and sexual attraction one for another.

2. The word "love". Remove it from your vocabulary for a day. Instead of saying the word "love", replace with the other words that will describe what you are feeling to your woman at the moment, and communicate to her in this way. For example, I "desire" you, I "apprecate the way" you "make me feel as a man." I "thank" you "for taking care of this task. I "want to f_ck" you. I "like the way" you "look in that tight skirt. I "enjoy the feeling of " you "r teeth nibbling on my (body part). This way, it communicates to both of you a deeper level of interest, than merely the same ol same ol. By contrast, if instead of these things, many negative thoughts are coming to mind, this is also a good way to inventory and fix these issues as well.


----------



## greenpearl

BigBadWolf said:


> This is nothing to dispute, any of it.
> 
> Understand though, the walk must match the talk.
> 
> Take some exercises, to see for yourself where you are at.
> 
> 1. INventory your behavoir with your woman, everything you do or say or any interaction at all with your woman. Then look for any of these that would "fit" just as if your woman was your mother, and you her son, and anything fitting this, stop immediately. INstead, imagine if you were the father, and she your child daughter, how would the relationship appear? Move away from behavior as her being your mother, and closer to behavior as if her being daughter. When the relationship finds natural balance in this respect, the result will most likely be you will meet her somewhere in the middle, with respect and sexual attraction one for another.
> 
> 2. The word "love". Remove it from your vocabulary for a day. Instead of saying the word "love", replace with the other words that will describe what you are feeling to your woman at the moment, and communicate to her in this way. For example, I "desire" you, I "apprecate the way" you "make me feel as a man." I "thank" you "for taking care of this task. I "want to f_ck" you. I "like the way" you "look in that tight skirt. I "enjoy the feeling of " you "r teeth nibbling on my (body part). This way, it communicates to both of you a deeper level of interest, than merely the same ol same ol. By contrast, if instead of these things, many negative thoughts are coming to mind, this is also a good way to inventory and fix these issues as well.


Are you my husband?

My husband says those things to me all the time. 


No wonder I am horny all the time.

Once again it tells me that happily married couples are similar!


----------



## BigBadWolf

SadSamIAm said:


> I agree with you and I wish I would have done this years ago. I have let my wife talk to me like this for 20 years. It doesn't get any better if you let her get away with it.
> 
> My wife's father talked to her mother like this all the time and her mother took it. Now she is treating me the same and I have been taking it. The last couple of years, I have been fighting back. Not taking it. But it is tough and I think the years of her abuse have taken its toll. She doesn't respect me and it is very tough to undue.
> 
> You are doing the right thing to stop this early.


Unless your woman has checked out completely and/or embraced emotionally some affair man, this respect can be returned frightenly quickly.

As quickly as the next time she is being disrespectful, you turn her over your knee, lift up her skirt, and spank her firmly on her behind. 

Bold enough to do this? Then the solution is easy.

Not bold enough? THen first take steps to do this same effect in attitude.


----------



## BigBadWolf

SadSamIAm said:


> I kind of understand your laundry analogy, but I don't get how it relates to the dishwasher.
> 
> How can someone unload a dishwasher incorrectly? How can someone help, but get a little water on the floor? I am sure he didn't mean to spill water on the floor?
> 
> The point is how she talks to him. The tone and the message is meant to make him feel little. Like a child.


Perfect.

THe issues, they are never the laundry or the dishwater.

Lack of respect, coming from resentment, coming from missing the bigger issue.

A woman disrespecting her man, she is wanting (needing) him to prove her wrong.


----------



## BigBadWolf

Trenton said:


> What if this is not really a fitness test for the man but more about the personality of the woman? I believe if this is the case (and the only way to understand if it is/is with open communication) then the wife will feel more support by him showing open understanding and a willingness to work with her personality. Then the man does not seem like a burden/child but a support/provider/comforter.


A fitness test, it is just for this, so to the woman, he "does not seem like a burden/child but a support/provider/comforter.

A woman, she needs to experience (not with words) that she is in a relatinship with a man.

If she not experiencing this from her man from his own initiative, she will provide opportunities for him to demonstrate this. 

Fitness test.


----------



## greenpearl

BigBadWolf said:


> Unless your woman has checked out completely and/or embraced emotionally some affair man, this respect can be returned frightenly quickly.
> 
> As quickly as the next time she is being disrespectful, you turn her over your knee, lift up her skirt, and spank her firmly on her behind.
> 
> Bold enough to do this? Then the solution is easy.
> 
> Not bold enough? THen first take steps to do this same effect in attitude.


Wolf, 

You know, it might be easy for you to be witty like this. 

But not every man can be this naughty!

Went through Bob's posts, find that German Shepherd analogy interesting. But I do think I'd like a German Shepherd. 

It is handsome, sexy, and strong. 

Wow!

German Shepherd!

My MAN! 

GREAT!

Actually I like Border Collie.


----------



## Trenton

BigBadWolf said:


> A fitness test, it is just for this, so to the woman, he "does not seem like a burden/child but a support/provider/comforter.
> 
> A woman, she needs to experience (not with words) that she is in a relatinship with a man.
> 
> If she not experiencing this from her man from his own initiative, she will provide opportunities for him to demonstrate this.
> 
> Fitness test.


Does your wife still do this to you at times?


----------



## MEM2020

I use the word "conflict" all the time. BBW sometimes refers to "friction". Both of us mean the same thing. Conflict refers to a contest - each party seeking a different outcome. BAD conflict is a hateful screaming match. Good conflict is a game of backgammon/ping pong/etc. where each of you is playing to win and both of you are more focused on playing to your potential than you are in "winning". And in this type game you genuinely compliment your opponent when they play well. And perhaps you overlay with some light banter. 

The kitchen example - like any others like it - provides an opportunity for you to contest her behavior. 

If my W abuses her "remote control" privileges by being inconsiderate - the best move possible is for me to suggest that we watch "World at War" as this is a history channel series I love and she thinks is deadly boring. For a moment I get the confused look and then the defiant response - "uh no" and I then demand the remote with a smile. From here - it is her play. She can either refuse in which case we are wrestling on the bed or she quickly says "what would you like to watch?" and I suggest something we both like. 

This is all done without anger. I am not an angry guy. Were she to be *****y - for real - I most likely would smile and suggest she change the station to WBCH and watch the show on "anger management" and then I would go read a book. 

So yes - sometimes - rarely we do get angry. But the vast majority of our conflict - while serious is playful. By serious I mean that I am not going to "roll over" if she resists or escalates. But she LIKES conflict. Just not "toxic" conflict. 

If I am angry by what she is doing - AND I want her to know it - which is not always the case - then I give her a serious body language warning and a good 5 seconds before I say the first word. We have had situations where she has said something outrageous and I visibly stiffened, and then slowly walked towards her in an aggressive manner without saying a word. And as I reach her personal space she apologizes and retracts. 

disclaimer: I have never and will never hit my W and she knows that. She didn't feel physically threatened but she definitely knew that she had breached a boundary and was about to get a full throttle response. Which might just be - "what did you just say to me?" followed by stony silence. Followed by a total cessation of non-essential conversation until she apologized. But I never do that for minor stuff. And even when non-essential conversation ends - I am cordial for the required stuff - hello/goodbye/please pass the salt. 




r2d210 said:


> AFEH, fair enough.....I'm here to learn! BBW, I have been waiting for you to weigh in on this all day. I'm not dissapointed! Thanks for that and I look forward to hearing more from you!


----------



## Conrad

BigBadWolf said:


> A fitness test, it is just for this, so to the woman, he "does not seem like a burden/child but a support/provider/comforter.
> 
> A woman, she needs to experience (not with words) that she is in a relatinship with a man.
> 
> If she not experiencing this from her man from his own initiative, she will provide opportunities for him to demonstrate this.
> 
> Fitness test.


When we discuss it in this manner, it's crystal clear.

So widespread.

So universal.

We even see them in movies.

I'm not quite sure how anyone can deny their existence or their meaning.


----------



## greenpearl

BigBadWolf said:


> A fitness test, it is just for this, so to the woman, he "does not seem like a burden/child but a support/provider/comforter.
> 
> A woman, she needs to experience (not with words) that she is in a relatinship with a man.
> 
> If she not experiencing this from her man from his own initiative, she will provide opportunities for him to demonstrate this.
> 
> Fitness test.


Do you think that us women always give men tests? 

How come I don't feel this way. 

Once again I am lost! :scratchhead:


----------



## Trenton

greenpearl said:


> Do you think that us women always give men tests?
> 
> How come I don't feel this way.
> 
> Once again I am lost! :scratchhead:


I constantly test and I'm usually delighted with the results. That's why I asked if his wife still tests him. I have admitted that I was a type A personality and I'm very cerebral so I like to play games with my husband. For us it keeps us communicating & seducing one another. It keeps the relationship alive.


----------



## Conrad

Trenton said:


> I constantly test and I'm usually delighted with the results. That's why I asked if his wife still tests him. I have admitted that I was a type A personality and I'm very cerebral so I like to play games with my husband. For us it keeps us communicating & seducing one another. It keeps the relationship alive.


I suppose I'm having a bit of difficulty squaring this testimony with some of your other posts.

Aren't you thinking some movement is necessary or you're possibly near the end?


----------



## BigBadWolf

Trenton said:


> Please report back and let me know if this works, it very well might. Each relationship is different. It wouldn't work for me. I would see you as a threat to me and not a support. I can't reiterate enough that this is just me. I would fight your standing up every step of the way and I would resent you till I would want to walk away and I'd willingly walk away fast and without looking back.


Trenton, this is exactly truth.

But understand, you will say this about any man that you are not in a relationship with, one you have not experiential trust or attraction to.

ANy woman would, and does.

But your own husband, for example, will you also fight him if he stands his ground? Is he a threat? Why not? WIll you walk away fast from that man, or instead jump him in bed when he displays his masculine mettle to you?


----------



## BigBadWolf

r2d210 said:


> I have several hobbies. But here is the problem. My hobbies are viewed as selfish and disrespectful to her. I love to run, however I basically have been forced to run when it effects her the least. So, when I run I run on my lunch hour or in the morning when she is asleep. She don't seem to care as much if she don't know about it. Any other time is taking away from time with her and the kids. (Two teen age boys who could care less if I go for a run!) Anyway, I know this sounds backwards, but I do feel like I am a confident person outside of my marriage. I could explain more, but for the sake of this discussion, I will leave it at that. Hope that helps!


Nice777guy nailed this.

For happiness of both you and your woman, resume your hobbies!

Do not ask for permission, look at any nonsense as mere fitness test, and respond appropriately.


----------



## greenpearl

MEM11363 said:


> I use the word "conflict" all the time. BBW sometimes refers to "friction". Both of us mean the same thing. Conflict refers to a contest - each party seeking a different outcome. BAD conflict is a hateful screaming match. Good conflict is a game of backgammon/ping pong/etc. where each of you is playing to win and both of you are more focused on playing to your potential than you are in "winning". And in this type game you genuinely compliment your opponent when they play well. And perhaps you overlay with some light banter.
> 
> The kitchen example - like any others like it - provides an opportunity for you to contest her behavior.
> 
> If my W abuses her "remote control" privileges by being inconsiderate - the best move possible is for me to suggest that we watch "World at War" as this is a history channel series I love and she thinks is deadly boring. For a moment I get the confused look and then the defiant response - "uh no" and I then demand the remote with a smile. From here - it is her play. She can either refuse in which case we are wrestling on the bed or she quickly says "what would you like to watch?" and I suggest something we both like.
> 
> This is all done without anger. I am not an angry guy. Were she to be *****y - for real - I most likely would smile and suggest she change the station to WBCH and watch the show on "anger management" and then I would go read a book.
> 
> So yes - sometimes - rarely we do get angry. But the vast majority of our conflict - while serious is playful. By serious I mean that I am not going to "roll over" if she resists or escalates. But she LIKES conflict. Just not "toxic" conflict.


Still there is a lot for me to chew!

My husband watches movies he likes to watch when I am not at home. When I am watching a movie he doesn't like to watch, he goes and read his book. 

We both like comedies, and that's the only thing we can watch together. 

I did go to the theaters with him when he wanted to watch " Star Wars" " 007" " Avatar" these are not the kind of movies I am interested in, but he wanted to go the movie theater, I didn't want to be at home alone, and I went to the theater with him, and I was glad that I went. 

The kind of books he likes to read are totally different from mine, once he suggested me reading a book, I got furious at him for doing that because I hated the ending, the book was" The other boleyn girl" I was very upset about the ending. He got lost that I was so upset, from then on, I told him not to suggest books for me to read. I know what I like to read and want I don't like. I choose my own books. He had stopped doing that since then. 

Other conflict, I have to think hard!:scratchhead:


----------



## chefmaster

I've been helping with the dishes in the DW for many years, trust me when I say:

1. You will never ALWAYS do the dishes to her liking.

2. It's not always about the dishes


----------



## BigBadWolf

r2d210 said:


> She struggles for hobbies. Running for her is like going to the dentist. Hates it! She is fighting for control, always has. I'm compliant and have continually taken the kick in the nuts for years! I think I have been like your husband (Trenton) and even tried to find out how to do it her way. I offered to wipe up the water! I honestly think she has no idea what she sounds like. Her mind is going a hundred miles an hour, she wants things done her way and she speaks her mind. Untill I let her know that what she is saying hurts, or is at the very least dis-respectful, she will continue doing as she has always done!


No.

Do not expect sympathy, that is opposite of passing a fitness test.

That you are a good man, confident, in control, happy, successful, dependable, whether the oceans of your woman's moods or treatment to you rise or fall, that in all this, always you are in attitude and behavior, comfortable with yourself.

YOur woman, she wants (needs) to experience this from you.

Either from your own leadership or initiative (taking up your running hobby), or passing her tests (standing up to her disrespecting conduct), your woman will crave this experience from her man.



> Be controlling...right? I still like the body language idea. Not to be mean or pick a fight, but it will be so out of character that I think she may think about what she said.


Never to esclate or pick a fight, even so much that a fight or not a fight, it matters very little to you.


----------



## Conrad

BigBadWolf said:


> Nice777guy nailed this.
> 
> For happiness of both you and your woman, resume your hobbies!
> 
> Do not ask for permission, look at any nonsense as mere fitness test, and respond appropriately.


Rd,

Think about this carefully and study the issue.

YOU ARE IN YOUR OWN HOUSE!

THIS IS YOUR GOD-GIVEN LIFE!

Who the hell is this woman to tell you WHEN you can exercise for your personal benefit?

As I warned earlier, if this does not stop, you will be here in a few years bemoaning the fact that it's been 4-5 years since you've had sex and she will have claimed to "not love you" anymore - because she's lost interest.

OF COURSE SHE WILL HAVE LOST INTEREST!

What is remotely interesting about someone who will do anything and everything you tell him to do. How many? What color? Thank you ma'am, may I have another!


----------



## BigBadWolf

r2d210 said:


> I wish it was. Maybe this is part of my problem, but I can't get past the element of love here. Is it loving to leave for 5 hours over spilled water? What does that say to her? Every time you open your mouth in a negative way towards me I'm out of here? Come on Man! I would not want her to leave if I spoke negative to her. I love my wife and I want to work with her, not against her. I see a man being dominate in saying your peace and not doing the dishes, but I don't think it is right to leave for 5 hours. Am I wrong here?


REmove yourself, create distance, if there is physical altercation or your woman is simply out of control.

Otherwise, leaving to pursue some other activity that you enjoy is but one way of many ways to address such behavior from your woman.

THe double edge sword, do not behave only reactionary (always leaving for example), as this will still have your woman controlling the relationship.

To leave, to create space, the finess is that you should be only leaving from your own leadership to pursue somehting you choose to do, not your woman's leadership or choosing.

Can you see this difference?


----------



## greenpearl

chefmaster said:


> I've been helping with the dishes in the DW for many years, trust me when I say:
> 
> 1. You will never ALWAYS do the dishes to her liking.
> 
> 2. It's not always about the dishes


For us, my husband does the dishes. I never say anything, I know that he does a great job, when he is in the kitchen, the kitchen is his, I don't care what he does with it. 

When I am in the kitchen cooking, the kitchen is mine!

Attitude is what we should be aware of. 

No man or woman should talk to their spouses in a disrespectful way. We should show appreciation! We don't try to compete and belittle!


----------



## BigBadWolf

nice777guy said:


> MEM's list is great, but it can be overwhelming.
> 
> Work on yourself for now. Create some space. Become a little mysterious. Don't yell or argue - just DO. Detach. Build your confidence. Do NOT let her dictate your mood.


Good advice for ALL men.


----------



## greenpearl

R2D2,

I am very glad that you are getting great help from all the good men here. 

My heart warms up when I see people here so loving and helpful. 

And the advice they give is wonderful!


----------



## Conrad

BigBadWolf said:


> REmove yourself, create distance, if there is physical altercation or your woman is simply out of control.
> 
> Otherwise, leaving to pursue some other activity that you enjoy is but one way of many ways to address such behavior from your woman.
> 
> THe double edge sword, do not behave only reactionary (always leaving for example), as this will still have your woman controlling the relationship.
> 
> To leave, to create space, the finess is that you should be only leaving from your own leadership to pursue somehting you choose to do, not your woman's leadership or choosing.
> 
> Can you see this difference?


Wolf,

This is very intuitive.

The displeasure should be obvious from body language. But, the distance should never be "expected".

At my house, it can be a late nite motorcycle ride. It can be me going to dinner by myself. It can be me heading to the man cave in the basement for a gospel music fest. It can be simply typing on this forum. It can be construction on a project in the garage.

What it will NOT be is hanging around trying to win "approval" by logic, pleading, or hoping to "cheer up" someone who had no business *****ing in the first place.


----------



## BigBadWolf

Conrad said:


> Rd is walking on eggshells in his own castle.
> 
> And, he's allowing it.
> 
> I wish him well in overcoming his fear of her.


A marriage relationship, with years of history, social connections, family connections, this fear to a man to lose the woman he loves, this fear can become very real, and the root of this is seeking approval of his woman by reverting to behavior, that for all reality, is that just as a child relating to his mother.

When the man truly realizes that he is his own person, happy, successful, and stops seeking approval from the opposite sex, and actually regards such approval or disapproval as humorously whimsical, and his attitude and behavior match this realiziation, then his sexual and emotional relastionships at last have the potential to exceed his wildest fantasies!


----------



## BigBadWolf

Trenton said:


> BBW, your advice is actually similar to my advice when I read it. The only difference is you believe she wants him to have control over himself and I believe her need for control is an expression that comes from her...possibly from how she was raised or dealing with issues that made her feel a fear of loss of control. She still wants him to have confidence, of course...confidence in himself and in her.


A woman in a relationship with a man, she wants to see him succeed.

These fitness test, they are nothing bad, and nothing to be avoided, unless men avoid women altogether.

They are merely opportunities for the man to shine. 

The man that shine's, he is the happy man in the sexual filled relationship.

If the man is not shining, there is without doubt, unhappiness already on both sides, resentment that needs to be dealt with, issues that need to be addressed.

Fitness tests, they shine the light on such things.

And I agree, your advice and mine are most similar, except you forgot to mention the spanking.


----------



## Trenton

Conrad said:


> I suppose I'm having a bit of difficulty squaring this testimony with some of your other posts.
> 
> Aren't you thinking some movement is necessary or you're possibly near the end?


I have one issue with my husband and it's his inability to communicate with me while at work and when this happens I feel so overwhelmingly angry and hurt and it happens a lot. There are times I feel like I am near the end when it comes to that as I posted the other day, a bad day when I wanted to strangle him.

That evening after posting here and wanting to strangle him, run far away or just basically crawl out of my skin, I got dressed up and got a babysitter and went to volunteer. I knew this would drive him insane because I didn't let him know in advance and I hoped he would come look for me, which he did. That night we talked into the wee hours of the morning about how I feel and why he does what he does.

He went to work and he came home this evening and he spoke to me about a partnership between him and I and beginning his own firm. OK, so I am happy today. I'm sure I come off as confusing here because I am blunt and share the up's and down's without a huge explanation.


----------



## Trenton

BigBadWolf said:


> Trenton, this is exactly truth.
> 
> But understand, you will say this about any man that you are not in a relationship with, one you have not experiential trust or attraction to.
> 
> ANy woman would, and does.
> 
> But your own husband, for example, will you also fight him if he stands his ground? Is he a threat? Why not? WIll you walk away fast from that man, or instead jump him in bed when he displays his masculine mettle to you?


Hmmmm...OK, I would fight him if he stood his ground with something in spite and didn't understand where I was coming from. He is the biggest threat to me because he has the power to hurt me more than anyone. Yes, maybe I am putty in his hands if he responds appropriately but to do this a man has to stand outside of the situation and hear what his wife is meaning instead of what she is actually saying. We are tricky creatures.


----------



## BigBadWolf

Trenton said:


> Does your wife still do this to you at times?


Absolutely!

And if I have gone a day or two without expressing strongly my mettle and sexual desire for her from my own initiatve, it will be guaranteed.

The dark, erotic, physical, aggresive sexual relations that we experience, they do not happen from business discussions.

The gateway to this kind of sexual exploration, it must be through confrontation and challenge, primal, experiential. 

This is the friction, the conflict, that is the spark of sexual attraction.

And this, all this starts with these interactions what we are calling fitness tests.

Fitness test, all good men reading this, realize the opportunities that they truly are!


----------



## Trenton

BigBadWolf said:


> A woman in a relationship with a man, she wants to see him succeed.
> 
> These fitness test, they are nothing bad, and nothing to be avoided, unless men avoid women altogether.
> 
> They are merely opportunities for the man to shine.
> 
> The man that shine's, he is the happy man in the sexual filled relationship.
> 
> If the man is not shining, there is without doubt, unhappiness already on both sides, resentment that needs to be dealt with, issues that need to be addressed.
> 
> Fitness tests, they shine the light on such things.
> 
> And I agree, your advice and mine are most similar, except you forgot to mention the spanking.


A woman must shine also but in different ways. I think I'm beginning to understand what you're saying. If I am spanked I will most certainly fail to mention it.


----------



## OhGeesh

BigBadWolf said:


> Absolutely!
> 
> And if I have gone a day or two without expressing strongly my mettle and sexual desire for her from my own initiatve, it will be guaranteed.
> 
> The dark, erotic, physical, aggresive sexual relations that we experience, they do not happen from business discussions.
> 
> The gateway to this kind of sexual exploration, it must be through confrontation and challenge, primal, experiential.
> 
> This is the friction, the conflict, that is the spark of sexual attraction.
> 
> And this, all this starts with these interactions what we are calling fitness tests.
> 
> Fitness test, all good men reading this, realize the opportunities that they truly are!


This is fine and dandy 1-2 out of every 10 times......maybe that's where you lose me. You alway have to touch on primal, dark, pull her hair, forceful, slap her ass, take control, as if that's what all women want all the time.

You sure you're not just caught up with sex?


----------



## greenpearl

OhGeesh said:


> This is fine and dandy 1-2 out of every 10 times......maybe that's where you lose me. You alway have to touch on primal, dark, pull her hair, forceful, slap her ass, take control, as if that's what all women want all the time.
> 
> You sure you're not just caught up with sex?



I don't know about other women.

I like these, I love these. I love it when my husband does all these. I keep my hair long for this purpose. I keep my bum sexy just so I get spanked. 

I spank my husband's sexy bum also. And pinch him!

Love the feeling of being lusted by my MAN.

Maybe I love sex toooooooo muuuuuuuuuuch!


----------



## greenpearl

Wolf, MEM,

I still don't understand why friction and conflict can be the spark of sexual attraction?

Conflict means disagreement and argument. 

I don't like to argue. 

When people argue, their main purpose is to win the argument. 

I do like to discuss things with my husband. 

We share each other's opinions, but I call that conversation, I don't call that argument. 

We talk to each other in a respectful way and get our opinions across. 

We don't agree with each other all the time, but we learn from each other. 

It is OK. I am just different. 

I like our life without argument. I like our life full of peace. 

Our sex life is full of spark and fire. I don't see we need friction and conflict.


----------



## HomeGoodMan

hello green pearl!

I and my wife will have a new baby.

It will be the third of our baby.


----------



## OhGeesh

greenpearl said:


> Wolf, MEM,
> 
> I still don't understand why friction and conflict can be the spark of sexual attraction?
> 
> Conflict means disagreement and argument.
> 
> I don't like to argue.
> 
> When people argue, their main purpose is to win the argument.
> 
> I do like to discuss things with my husband.
> 
> We share each other's opinions, but I call that conversation, I don't call that argument.
> 
> We talk to each other in a respectful way and get our opinions across.
> 
> We don't agree with each other all the time, but we learn from each other.
> 
> It is OK. I am just different.
> 
> I like our life without argument. I like our life full of peace.
> 
> Our sex life is full of spark and fire. I don't see we need friction and conflict.


The relationship you have with your husband sounds very much like the marriage I have with my wife (without so much spanking and hair pulling) We discuss we don't fight..... I can count the times on one hand we've actually fought aka yelled and said hurtful things in our whole marriage. There is no it's my way or the highway mentality. I know when to trust her she knows when to trust me it's joint.

We share everything dreams, passions, opinions, work load, chores, child rearing, very few gender specific roles at all, I do control the finances other than that we are equals.

As far as the sex it's awesome and frequent, but if I slapped my wife on the ass, pulled her hair, and was "rough" all the time, she would be pissed. We've discussed this and it makes her feel like a piece of meat. Every once in awhile it's fun though!!.......to be honest she hates the spanks, but does put up with it


----------



## greenpearl

HomeGoodMan said:


> hello green pearl!
> 
> I and my wife will have a new baby.
> 
> It will be the third of our baby.


Congratulations!


----------



## greenpearl

OhGeesh said:


> The relationship you have with your husband sounds very much like the marriage I have with my wife (without so much spanking and hair pulling) We discuss we don't fight..... I can count the times on one hand we've actually fought aka yelled and said hurtful things in our whole marriage. There is no it's my way or the highway mentality. I know when to trust her she knows when to trust me it's joint.
> 
> We share everything dreams, passions, opinions, work load, chores, child rearing, very few gender specific roles at all, I do control the finances other than that we are equals.
> 
> As far as the sex it's awesome and frequent, but if I slapped my wife on the ass, pulled her hair, and was "rough" all the time, she would be pissed. We've discussed this and it makes her feel like a piece of meat. Every once in awhile it's fun though!!.......to be honest she hates the spanks, but does put up with it


My husband has earned my trust by being 100% faithful to me. I am also 100% honest with my husband. We love each other, we respect each other, and we cherish each other, both of us know not to take the other one for granted and both of us know it is important to please the other one first. Neither of us take each other for granted. It is all based on understanding, mutual love, and respect. 

I understand that a lot of western women don't like the spanking. I think a lot of eastern women won't understand the fun either. Women had been victims of the society for too long, they view it in a different way rather than sexual arousing and fun. 

I am different. I am different in many ways. I don't mind my husband watch porn, I watch porn with him together. I don't mind my husband check out women on the street, I check out women with him together. Since I don't mind all these things, my husband actually doesn't do these things often. He doesn't find porn necessary anymore. I don't think there are many women on the street can turn his head. He watches people just to study their behavior, that's it. 

It is related to confidence, security, and satisfaction.


----------



## BigBadWolf

greenpearl said:


> Wolf, MEM,
> 
> I still don't understand why friction and conflict can be the spark of sexual attraction?
> 
> Conflict means disagreement and argument.
> 
> I don't like to argue.
> 
> When people argue, their main purpose is to win the argument.
> 
> I do like to discuss things with my husband.
> 
> We share each other's opinions, but I call that conversation, I don't call that argument.
> 
> We talk to each other in a respectful way and get our opinions across.
> 
> We don't agree with each other all the time, but we learn from each other.
> 
> It is OK. I am just different.
> 
> I like our life without argument. I like our life full of peace.
> 
> Our sex life is full of spark and fire. I don't see we need friction and conflict.


This conflict and confrontation, sexual friction, fitness testing, it is not merely for the purpose of winning and losing at all.

For the woman, it is her needing to experience the kind of man she is in the relationship with, his masculinity.

Do not confuse this conflict with debating, or logical discussions, or some conflict or challenge that is exactly what it is at face value, as an example, if the man was physical abusing his woman, or the woman was unresponsible with money, the conflict from these scenarios is of course is not sexual and not what I am speaking of.

But these things you share about your relationship, that your husband is not afraid to challenge you when you are being "silly", or he is not afraid to pinch or spank you, or be "naughty" with you. 

In this way, it is indeed conflict and confrontation, absolutley, although perhaps you are clearly enjoying the dynamics and do not see it as conflict. 

But imagine if your man was not doing these things, if you were being "silly" he either did not notice, or not seem to care. And he would not be playful or willing to spank or pinch you or be "naughty" in bed, as if he was unwilling or afraid to make you mad, and unwilling or afraid to disagree with you, but was only telling you things that he thought that you wanted to hear, even if they were less than honest. 

Imagine living with this type of man. Would you not be interested to stop this kind of behavior from him, and insist that he treat you with honesty? How would you do this? How would any woman do this? 

She will do this with fitness testing.

This is the conflict and confrontatation that I am speaking of.


----------



## Nekko

greenpearl said:


> Wolf, MEM,
> 
> I still don't understand why friction and conflict can be the spark of sexual attraction?


My theory : you're really close to someone. Maybe in some cases it's a bit boring, comfortable but not especially erotic. then you have a fight. You both stand your ground (aren't rude and yelling curse words but do disagree and are passionate about your opinion) and slowly but surely you feel a bit further away emotionally from your spouse. 

You're not smooching lovebirds anymore, you're two strong people challenging eachother. As there's a bit of a distance between you too, the natural response (for some people, not all), is to want to get close again. So as you gain that distance, you gain attraction which pulls you closer to that person again. Spark,..and bam...sex. Like when you try stretch something....it gets longer and stretches further then when you let go it tightens again. 

Some people hate conflict though. My husband is one of them. If we fight that means sex is the last thing on his mind. We have to get along, love and respect eachother for him to be attracted. That's probably because he kept seeing his parents fight and his mother miserable when he was a kid. 

Oh yes, and disagreements remind you that you don't own the person next to you or his/her mind. That also helps fight off some boredom, the taken for granted feeling etc. But yes, i agree, conflict, if done properly is sometimes exceptionally good for a relationship.

And what BBW said too, since he posted right as i was posting this.


----------



## greenpearl

BigBadWolf said:


> This conflict and confrontation, sexual friction, fitness testing, it is not merely for the purpose of winning and losing at all.
> 
> For the woman, it is her needing to experience the kind of man she is in the relationship with, his masculinity.
> 
> Do not confuse this conflict with debating, or logical discussions, or some conflict or challenge that is exactly what it is at face value, as an example, if the man was physical abusing his woman, or the woman was unresponsible with money, the conflict from these scenarios is of course is not sexual and not what I am speaking of.
> 
> But these things you share about your relationship, that your husband is not afraid to challenge you when you are being "silly", or he is not afraid to pinch or spank you, or be "naughty" with you.
> 
> In this way, it is indeed conflict and confrontation, absolutley, although perhaps you are clearly enjoying the dynamics and do not see it as conflict.
> 
> But imagine if your man was not doing these things, if you were being "silly" he either did not notice, or not seem to care. And he would not be playful or willing to spank or pinch you or be "naughty" in bed, as if he was unwilling or afraid to make you mad, and unwilling or afraid to disagree with you, but was only telling you things that he thought that you wanted to hear, even if they were less than honest.
> 
> Imagine living with this type of man. Would you not be interested to stop this kind of behavior from him, and insist that he treat you with honesty? How would you do this? How would any woman do this?
> 
> She will do this with fitness testing.
> 
> This is the conflict and confrontatation that I am speaking of.


If that is what you are talking about. 

Yes, it is very important. 

I was just talking to my husband today, I said a smart woman needs a smart man to lead. He can help her become smarter. My husband is never afraid to correct me when I am not behaving properly. He will always correct me when I talk silly. He is making me try hard to improve myself.

I had a yes man before, I was beautiful and smart, he didn't dare to correct me, he didn't dare to make me upset(actually he upset me even more by not knowing what I wanted), he didn't do anything naughty, I thought that I married a man who was strong and smart, it turned out that I was fooled by him. I became stupid after a few years with him. I lost my attraction to him, I chose to leave him even though I lost all the material stuff. I was so unhappy and emotional void that I was willing to give up everything. 

If that's what you are talking about, Yes, definitely. 

Spanking, being naughty, pinch, attack suddenly.......they are all fun. Just today came back from school, while going upstairs, from behind, I reached up between his legs and grabbed his cocc. Then he sneaked behind me and tried to do the same thing, I had to sit on the stair to protect me.............:rofl:I call that play, I call that teasing, in this regard, my husband and I are playmates. 

I think English is my second language, I get lost quite often. I have to try very hard to understand what is going on. So please bear with me when I ask silly questions.


----------



## greenpearl

Nekko said:


> My theory : you're really close to someone. Maybe in some cases it's a bit boring, comfortable but not especially erotic. then you have a fight. You both stand your ground (aren't rude and yelling curse words but do disagree and are passionate about your opinion) and slowly but surely you feel a bit further away emotionally from your spouse.
> 
> You're not smooching lovebirds anymore, you're two strong people challenging eachother. As there's a bit of a distance between you too, the natural response (for some people, not all), is to want to get close again. So as you gain that distance, you gain attraction which pulls you closer to that person again. Spark,..and bam...sex. Like when you try stretch something....it gets longer and stretches further then when you let go it tightens again.
> 
> Some people hate conflict though. My husband is one of them. If we fight that means sex is the last thing on his mind. We have to get along, love and respect eachother for him to be attracted. That's probably because he kept seeing his parents fight and his mother miserable when he was a kid.
> 
> Oh yes, and disagreements remind you that you don't own the person next to you or his/her mind. That also helps fight off some boredom, the taken for granted feeling etc. But yes, i agree, conflict, if done properly is sometimes exceptionally good for a relationship.
> 
> And what BBW said too, since he posted right as i was posting this.


Nekko, 

I respect my husband even more when he tries to correct me. We used to fight, he wouldn't give in to me. He told me: woman, if you are wrong, then you are wrong, I am not going to say you are right. I would struggle and fight at the beginning, but after the fight, I would ponder what he said, and what he said made sense, then I would pay attention to that and work on that, make sure that I don't make the same mistake again. He told me that I seldom apologized, I told him " Yes, I did, my way of saying sorry is to keep quiet", he said: that's not enough, you have to speak out. woman, admit it when you are wrong, don't be stubborn." Now, if I do something silly, I apologize right away. Many events like these happened before, I often lost, he usually won. 

I think I really thank my husband for standing up to himself and didn't give in to my woman stubbornness. 

He made and he is making a woman he loves!


----------



## nice777guy

BigBadWolf said:


> 2. The word "love". Remove it from your vocabulary for a day. Instead of saying the word "love", replace with the other words that will describe what you are feeling to your woman at the moment, and communicate to her in this way. For example, I "desire" you, I "apprecate the way" you "make me feel as a man." I "thank" you "for taking care of this task. I "want to f_ck" you. I "like the way" you "look in that tight skirt. I "enjoy the feeling of " you "r teeth nibbling on my (body part). This way, it communicates to both of you a deeper level of interest, than merely the same ol same ol. By contrast, if instead of these things, many negative thoughts are coming to mind, this is also a good way to inventory and fix these issues as well.


Just now playing catch-up and this caught my eye. Some of the best advice I've ever read here. The word Love becomes so meaningless over time - like asking people how they are doing when you don't really care.

Think I may try that this weekend - go the whole weekend withoug saying the word "Love", yet finding other ways to express it.


----------



## nice777guy

As for the relationship between friction/conflict and passion - seems to me like we are most passionate about our marriages when we are angry or sexually charged.

I've always thought that the opposite of Love is Apathy, not Hate.

Anger = passion

Someone mentioned make-up sex earlier. Been awhile for me, but I do have memories of some great make-up sex from our earlier years together.


----------



## nice777guy

Trenton said:


> I would fight your standing up every step of the way and I would resent you till I would want to walk away and I'd willingly walk away fast and without looking back.


Trenton - are you saying that if your husband were to go "toe to toe" with you, that you would NEVER back down? Sounds like you wouldn't even consider his position, or whether he is right or wrong.

You would be willing to end your marriage to preserve your pride or your standing as the Alpha?

Am I reading this right? What am I missing?


----------



## greenpearl

nice777guy said:


> As for the relationship between friction/conflict and passion - seems to me like we are most passionate about our marriages when we are angry or sexually charged.
> 
> I've always thought that the opposite of Love is Apathy, not Hate.
> 
> Anger = passion
> 
> Someone mentioned make-up sex earlier. Been awhile for me, but I do have memories of some great make-up sex from our earlier years together.


I still view this man up. 

I view this men need to stand up for themselves and don't give in to their women. 

My husband has passed his fitness tests if I did have the kind of tests you men mentioned. 

We are all peaceful now. We know what we like and what we don't like.

I know that I can't do this or that since he won't like it. 

I know what to do to make him happy. 

I didn't like the argument we had at the beginning of our marriage. I don't like to get upset anymore. 

I don't test my husband anymore. What I want the most is love, passion, and sex. And we have all these. 

I am trying to learn to achieve peace, happiness and confidence by studying wisdom.


----------



## r2d210

BigBadWolf said:


> Unless your woman has checked out completely and/or embraced emotionally some affair man, this respect can be returned frightenly quickly.
> 
> As quickly as the next time she is being disrespectful, you turn her over your knee, lift up her skirt, and spank her firmly on her behind.
> 
> Bold enough to do this? Then the solution is easy.
> 
> Not bold enough? THen first take steps to do this same effect in attitude.


BBW, thank you. I hope this is true. I think it will be. 

UPDATE!
First off, I want to thank all of you! For the first time I can see what I have done to lead to this. It's the "classic" nice guy syndrome. Working to be nice, frustrated it doesn't work. I'm beginning to understand why I'm frustrated, and I'm no longer fearing her or the outcome. I'm going to be a new person, starting now.....confident, strong, alpha and secure. I look back and she has told me this over the years. I just didn't understand....I didn't know. My dad never taught this....he has been married and divorced three times and now lives alone, still wondering why. 

1. I stayed late at work last night. I txt my wife and told her I was closing and I would be late. I didn't offer an explanation.... ( I want to create the distance....and be mysterious)
2. We had a meeting that we both had to be at last night. I txt her and told her to meet me there. Normally, I would have gone home to get her. Again, no apology or reason.
3. Later last night, she asked me a question about my son. He wanted permission to go over to some friend's house. I very quickly and sternly answered and I didn't ask her for her opinion at all. My answer was authoritative and decisive. I made the decision. 
4. I will be running tomorrow during the day. I'm very excited.
5. I spoke to her respectful, and I waited for the fitness test. It didn't come, but it will. I will be ready....
6. Thismorning, I got up an hour early to go into work. I didn't tell her this last night. 

Conrad, BBW, MEM, GreanPearl......thanks so much. You have literally changed my thinking and I will be forever a better person because of it, regardless of the outcome. 

Question: Two years ago, I played on a softball league.  It consumed almost every week night with games and practice. One night, while laying in bed, she unloaded on me. It was too much for her, I'm selfish, I'm inconsiderate to expect her to follow me all accross town. I work all day, come home, eat, change cloths, get home at 10:00 and expect sex! So, what did I do? I quit the team. Stopped it immediately. She later came back and told me to play again....but I was so mad from that experience of her yelling, and the hummiliation for me having to quit that I have never played again. I know now that I should have immediately addressed her and continued to play. But....here is what is hard. To pick a hobby that demands so much time that you literally place more value on it then her....how do you balance that and still be in control and dominate? Sure, I can just do it...and in my own fear, I think she would be mad enough to walk on me. (Maybe not) Her reaction often is, "well, I'm going to get a hobby and be gone all the time too!" Again, the type of conflict I have in the passed cowered on. It's good to be individuals, but at what point does it pull you apart and not together. Should I expect her to latch on to me and follow me and my hobbies all the time? 

Again, thanks so much...this thread is amazing.... 

I will keep you updated!


----------



## bumpgrind1

Wow! This thread has really wandered. I had a similar relationship as the op with my wife for a long time. Then she stopped doing anything. I did the laundry, the cooking, the shopping, everything while she sat on her hind end doing nothing...for years! My fault 100%! I never stood my ground on any of it because I didn't want the fight. Finally I told her that our relationship was nearing a fork in the road and if she chose my path she needed to help carry the load. I explained that a relationship, marriage, parenting and everything else between two people is like carrying a big heavy log. If the two people involved each carry one end and do their best it's not really such a burden. But if one of them no longer helps carry the load, he or she needs to step away because there will eventually be someone that will help.
We don't each carry the load the same way but we each do our best. I still do lots of the household chores but she does lots of them too. When I don't do something the way she want's she can tell me and either I'll work on my method or she can do it. If either of us spill something though it's understood that it will be cleaned up now not later. We talk with each other not to each other. This means that if one is on a rant and the other can't get a word in it stops! We walk away and come back later with a fresh start.


----------



## BigBadWolf

r2d210 said:


> BBW, thank you. I hope this is true. I think it will be.
> 
> UPDATE!
> First off, I want to thank all of you! For the first time I can see what I have done to lead to this. It's the "classic" nice guy syndrome. Working to be nice, frustrated it doesn't work. I'm beginning to understand why I'm frustrated, and I'm no longer fearing her or the outcome. I'm going to be a new person, starting now.....confident, strong, alpha and secure. I look back and she has told me this over the years. I just didn't understand....I didn't know. My dad never taught this....he has been married and divorced three times and now lives alone, still wondering why.
> 
> 1. I stayed late at work last night. I txt my wife and told her I was closing and I would be late. I didn't offer an explanation.... ( I want to create the distance....and be mysterious)
> 2. We had a meeting that we both had to be at last night. I txt her and told her to meet me there. Normally, I would have gone home to get her. Again, no apology or reason.
> 3. Later last night, she asked me a question about my son. He wanted permission to go over to some friend's house. I very quickly and sternly answered and I didn't ask her for her opinion at all. My answer was authoritative and decisive. I made the decision.
> 4. I will be running tomorrow during the day. I'm very excited.
> 5. I spoke to her respectful, and I waited for the fitness test. It didn't come, but it will. I will be ready....
> 6. Thismorning, I got up an hour early to go into work. I didn't tell her this last night.


The update is appreciated, and heartening to hear!

Many other good men, they will benefit from you sharing exactly these things.



> Conrad, BBW, MEM, GreanPearl......thanks so much. You have literally changed my thinking and I will be forever a better person because of it, regardless of the outcome.


Exactly, and I wish you the best.

Continue in this way, respect goes up, resentment comes down.

And this is the way to marriage happiness. 



> Question: Two years ago, I played on a softball league. It consumed almost every week night with games and practice. One night, while laying in bed, she unloaded on me. It was too much for her, I'm selfish, I'm inconsiderate to expect her to follow me all accross town. I work all day, come home, eat, change cloths, get home at 10:00 and expect sex! So, what did I do? I quit the team. Stopped it immediately. She later came back and told me to play again....but I was so mad from that experience of her yelling, and the hummiliation for me having to quit that I have never played again. I know now that I should have immediately addressed her and continued to play. But....here is what is hard. To pick a hobby that demands so much time that you literally place more value on it then her....how do you balance that and still be in control and dominate? Sure, I can just do it...and in my own fear, I think she would be mad enough to walk on me. (Maybe not) Her reaction often is, "well, I'm going to get a hobby and be gone all the time too!" Again, the type of conflict I have in the passed cowered on. It's good to be individuals, but at what point does it pull you apart and not together.


As you live your life in your own leadership, respect will increase.

With increase in respect, communication between you and your woman, it will be as two adults, and not a nagging woman speaking to a child.

This is just the point, that in this way, if you choose to do a hobby that is going to be so time consuming, then if it is a problem your woman will communicate to this to you properly, and you can then work it out as adults.

As well, from your own leadership, you will need to of course make decisions that will benefit yourself and the relationship and balance these things. 

But do this as a man, as an adult, making decisions from your own choosing and happiness, and not reacting or appeasing your woman, which only builds resentment and kills respect.

Idealy, you may find that as your relationship improves, and sexual and emotional connection skyrockets, maybe you are not wanting to be away from your woman every week night!  



> Should I expect her to latch on to me and follow me and my hobbies all the time?


Move through your life, and live your life in your own leadership and choosing, and invite your woman into your happiness.

Sometimes this happiness is going to be your woman joining you in your hobby, sometimes this happiness going to be your woman being apart, maybe doing something she enjoys. And when you come together, you may each share with one another your experiences.

A man who has his own interests, this man is interesting.  



> Again, thanks so much...this thread is amazing....
> 
> I will keep you updated!


I wish you well.


----------



## seeking sanity

Here's a thing to be mindful of: All this alpha stuff is good, but part of that is being deliberately loving to your wife through out the day. A big gripe from women is that their men ignore them all day then turn on the charm when they want sex. It's a huge turn off and you communicate that she has no value other than sex.

How this relates to your hobbies, is you make sure through out the day you flirt, tease, flatter your lady. Kiss in the morning, text in the mid day, tell her she looks hot, etc. You make this part of your every day life to build her up, her confidence... If she's feeling loved and desired and well treated, then your hobby time becomes less of an issue. The b*tching is a clue she isn't getting something.

Dominance is being in control of yourself. 

Keep in mind too, that the b*tching means she cares about you and wants something to change but doesn't know how to ask for it. When the b*tching stops, assuming nothing has changed in the relationship, you have a real problem, because then she has truly checked out and the next step is infidelity, divorce, or both.


----------



## Deejo

This gets reiterated all of the time, but necessarily so.

She is attaching fear and consequences to _your_ decisions, and you buy it. 
If your wife is prepared to leave you because you play softball for 10 weeks, is that really a marriage you want to be in?

You said it earlier. Right now you live your life as an accessory to her life - and one she isn't all that pleased with, at that.

The purpose of taking control isn't about seizing control from her. It's about taking control of yourself. Your life. Your decisions. If she wants to come along, great - that's what she agreed to when you married. You simply haven't done it yet.

Eliminate the fear. It has no place in how you choose to live your life or the decisions you make. And it needn't mean that you put her down. It only means that you find your own sense of self, your own comfort, confidence, and satisfaction ... that is in no way dependent upon what your wife threatens or insinuates as to how you should feel or respond. 

It's your own 'code of conduct'. Sometimes your code may be completely in alignment with your spouse. Other times, it will mean clearly stating, and if necessary, defending your boundaries, without fear of repercussions.


----------



## Conrad

r2d210 said:


> BBW, thank you. I hope this is true. I think it will be.
> 
> UPDATE!
> First off, I want to thank all of you! For the first time I can see what I have done to lead to this. It's the "classic" nice guy syndrome. Working to be nice, frustrated it doesn't work. I'm beginning to understand why I'm frustrated, and I'm no longer fearing her or the outcome. I'm going to be a new person, starting now.....confident, strong, alpha and secure. I look back and she has told me this over the years. I just didn't understand....I didn't know. My dad never taught this....he has been married and divorced three times and now lives alone, still wondering why.
> 
> 1. I stayed late at work last night. I txt my wife and told her I was closing and I would be late. I didn't offer an explanation.... ( I want to create the distance....and be mysterious)
> 2. We had a meeting that we both had to be at last night. I txt her and told her to meet me there. Normally, I would have gone home to get her. Again, no apology or reason.
> 3. Later last night, she asked me a question about my son. He wanted permission to go over to some friend's house. I very quickly and sternly answered and I didn't ask her for her opinion at all. My answer was authoritative and decisive. I made the decision.
> 4. I will be running tomorrow during the day. I'm very excited.
> 5. I spoke to her respectful, and I waited for the fitness test. It didn't come, but it will. I will be ready....
> 6. Thismorning, I got up an hour early to go into work. I didn't tell her this last night.
> 
> Conrad, BBW, MEM, GreanPearl......thanks so much. You have literally changed my thinking and I will be forever a better person because of it, regardless of the outcome.
> 
> Question: Two years ago, I played on a softball league. It consumed almost every week night with games and practice. One night, while laying in bed, she unloaded on me. It was too much for her, I'm selfish, I'm inconsiderate to expect her to follow me all accross town. I work all day, come home, eat, change cloths, get home at 10:00 and expect sex! So, what did I do? I quit the team. Stopped it immediately. She later came back and told me to play again....but I was so mad from that experience of her yelling, and the hummiliation for me having to quit that I have never played again. I know now that I should have immediately addressed her and continued to play. But....here is what is hard. To pick a hobby that demands so much time that you literally place more value on it then her....how do you balance that and still be in control and dominate? Sure, I can just do it...and in my own fear, I think she would be mad enough to walk on me. (Maybe not) Her reaction often is, "well, I'm going to get a hobby and be gone all the time too!" Again, the type of conflict I have in the passed cowered on. It's good to be individuals, but at what point does it pull you apart and not together. Should I expect her to latch on to me and follow me and my hobbies all the time?
> 
> Again, thanks so much...this thread is amazing....
> 
> I will keep you updated!


Rd,

I am excited for you, but I don't want you to get too exuberant and to "spoil for the fight" so you can test your wings.

Here's something you can to to MAKE SURE you don't jump in and make a fool of yourself when you sense trouble.

There are several phrases that force the other person to show their hand.

One of them is, "How did this get so big"?

Another is, "Where are we headed with this?"

Still a third... "I'll need a few quiet moments to collect myself before we discuss this."

And finally... "How is this helpful?"

These serve as a call to accountability. If she insists on pushing past these phrases, it means she's working to grind you down and it's time to test your wings - secure in the knowledge that you know what's up.

Remember, the confident man need not antagonize to get the true fitness test. They are coming. You just need to be sure it's the real deal before you implement.


----------



## r2d210

Conrad, I love the phrases. Knowing ways to say things that get to the point and disfuse the issue is huge for me. Thanks again...


----------



## Trenton

nice777guy said:


> Trenton - are you saying that if your husband were to go "toe to toe" with you, that you would NEVER back down? Sounds like you wouldn't even consider his position, or whether he is right or wrong.
> 
> You would be willing to end your marriage to preserve your pride or your standing as the Alpha?
> 
> Am I reading this right? What am I missing?


This might sound wrong but I don't know. It sounds so ridiculous but there are times when I'm at my worst that I feel that way. It's not that I haven't considered his side but that he is unwilling to change at all and without that change I ask myself if I can stay.


----------



## Trenton

r2d210 said:


> BBW, thank you. I hope this is true. I think it will be.
> 
> UPDATE!
> First off, I want to thank all of you! For the first time I can see what I have done to lead to this. It's the "classic" nice guy syndrome. Working to be nice, frustrated it doesn't work. I'm beginning to understand why I'm frustrated, and I'm no longer fearing her or the outcome. I'm going to be a new person, starting now.....confident, strong, alpha and secure. I look back and she has told me this over the years. I just didn't understand....I didn't know. My dad never taught this....he has been married and divorced three times and now lives alone, still wondering why.
> 
> 1. I stayed late at work last night. I txt my wife and told her I was closing and I would be late. I didn't offer an explanation.... ( I want to create the distance....and be mysterious)
> 2. We had a meeting that we both had to be at last night. I txt her and told her to meet me there. Normally, I would have gone home to get her. Again, no apology or reason.
> 3. Later last night, she asked me a question about my son. He wanted permission to go over to some friend's house. I very quickly and sternly answered and I didn't ask her for her opinion at all. My answer was authoritative and decisive. I made the decision.
> 4. I will be running tomorrow during the day. I'm very excited.
> 5. I spoke to her respectful, and I waited for the fitness test. It didn't come, but it will. I will be ready....
> 6. Thismorning, I got up an hour early to go into work. I didn't tell her this last night.
> 
> Conrad, BBW, MEM, GreanPearl......thanks so much. You have literally changed my thinking and I will be forever a better person because of it, regardless of the outcome.
> 
> Question: Two years ago, I played on a softball league. It consumed almost every week night with games and practice. One night, while laying in bed, she unloaded on me. It was too much for her, I'm selfish, I'm inconsiderate to expect her to follow me all accross town. I work all day, come home, eat, change cloths, get home at 10:00 and expect sex! So, what did I do? I quit the team. Stopped it immediately. She later came back and told me to play again....but I was so mad from that experience of her yelling, and the hummiliation for me having to quit that I have never played again. I know now that I should have immediately addressed her and continued to play. But....here is what is hard. To pick a hobby that demands so much time that you literally place more value on it then her....how do you balance that and still be in control and dominate? Sure, I can just do it...and in my own fear, I think she would be mad enough to walk on me. (Maybe not) Her reaction often is, "well, I'm going to get a hobby and be gone all the time too!" Again, the type of conflict I have in the passed cowered on. It's good to be individuals, but at what point does it pull you apart and not together. Should I expect her to latch on to me and follow me and my hobbies all the time?
> 
> Again, thanks so much...this thread is amazing....
> 
> I will keep you updated!


I hope this works for both of you and in the end you find a great balance that makes you both happier.

I have my doubts but it will depend on your wife. I can tell you flat out that it wouldn't work for me and I'm a woman. I would do what you fear your wife is going to do and I would pull away equally from you, but I might very well do it in a very cruel manner as I would see your behavior as a betrayal of our relationship and a desire to get away from me. Again, I am just being honest here. I do recognize if it works for all these men so it might have some truth to it for many women.


----------



## Trenton

seeking sanity said:


> Here's a thing to be mindful of: All this alpha stuff is good, but part of that is being deliberately loving to your wife through out the day. A big gripe from women is that their men ignore them all day then turn on the charm when they want sex. It's a huge turn off and you communicate that she has no value other than sex.
> 
> How this relates to your hobbies, is you make sure through out the day you flirt, tease, flatter your lady. Kiss in the morning, text in the mid day, tell her she looks hot, etc. You make this part of your every day life to build her up, her confidence... If she's feeling loved and desired and well treated, then your hobby time becomes less of an issue. The b*tching is a clue she isn't getting something.
> 
> Dominance is being in control of yourself.
> 
> Keep in mind too, that the b*tching means she cares about you and wants something to change but doesn't know how to ask for it. When the b*tching stops, assuming nothing has changed in the relationship, you have a real problem, because then she has truly checked out and the next step is infidelity, divorce, or both.


This might be the absolute key. In pulling away from her also pull her close when you are with her so that she doesn't see you as pulling away from the relationship. This might create the balance that is needed and allow her to see you as confident as well as loving.


----------



## r2d210

Trenton, understood. There has to be an alpha establishment for me....simply because she has never seen it. That being the case, I don't know how she will react. I'm tired of being a doormat and living a lie. I believe she loves me, I do! Once she knows where I stand, the ball is in her court and how she chooses to react will be up to her! My intention for this estabishment is truly out of love. I love her so much I want to save this marraige, but I'm willing to take what I get. Her dad has never stood up to her mother.....they are celebrating their 45th next month. It's sad, and I don't want to be them. Im guessing she will view me as cold, mean and insenstivie, initially, but then she can choose. I belive once she knows my heart is to take back control, or at least make us equal, she will understand and comply. Worst case, we separate.....but if you would have lived with her for the last 20 years....I think most of you would have left long before now. I think I would have been in a different place had I been man enough to at least stand up for myself!


----------



## r2d210

What I wish I could do....risking being tacky here, but I wish I could hang out with BBW, Conrad, or even your husband Trenton. Just to see how they deal with daily stuff. Honestly, if my wife could see how you treat your husbands, I think it could positive. I will look for positive role models for this. I think it can't hurt. I will look for men who are respected by their wives...., but honestly, off the top of my head, I can't think of any! I can think of many more men who the women control. It is a product of our society and I'm so guilty of allowing it to happen. Its shameful, and like many of you have pointed out....how can my W respect me if I don't respenct myself. I know one thing, I get more respect from work...! My boss is very dominate. My wife thinks he is a jerk! (Of course!) He reminds me of Bob, where it's his way or the hwy. I think that what the men here have shared is very close to where I need to be. Fair, balanced, positive, in control emtotionally, and demanding respect.


----------



## seeking sanity

r2d210 - I'd encourage you to read the book No More Mr Nice Guy by Dr Robert Glover. You'll get some insight into where this nice guy behaviour comes from. It will challenge you to confront some of the not so nice things behind it.

Good luck.


----------



## AFEH

r2d210 said:


> What I wish I could do....risking being tacky here, but I wish I could hang out with BBW, Conrad, or even your husband Trenton. Just to see how they deal with daily stuff. Honestly, if my wife could see how you treat your husbands, I think it could positive. I will look for positive role models for this. I think it can't hurt. I will look for men who are respected by their wives...., but honestly, off the top of my head, I can't think of any! I can think of many more men who the women control. It is a product of our society and I'm so guilty of allowing it to happen. Its shameful, and like many of you have pointed out....how can my W respect me if I don't respenct myself. I know one thing, I get more respect from work...! My boss is very dominate. My wife thinks he is a jerk! (Of course!) He reminds me of Bob, where it's his way or the hwy. I think that what the men here have shared is very close to where I need to be. Fair, balanced, positive, in control emtotionally, and demanding respect.


R2 you have me very wrong but no matter. Just stop being a *****.

R2, when you look back on this phase in your life in 10, 20 or 30 years time you’ll more like see it as the biggest life changing process you’ve taken your self through. Life is a journey. It is in my mind more important to enjoy the journey as it is to enjoy the destination. Bon Voyage!

Bob


----------



## nice777guy

Trenton said:


> This might sound wrong but I don't know. It sounds so ridiculous but there are times when I'm at my worst that I feel that way. It's not that I haven't considered his side but that he is unwilling to change at all and without that change I ask myself if I can stay.


Trenton - I like you - it seems like you are here for the right reasons - but you sound like you're as stubborn as a mule!


----------



## Trenton

nice777guy said:


> Trenton - I like you - it seems like you are here for the right reasons - but you sound like you're as stubborn as a mule!


That's a fair description but willing to look at my shortcomings and able to understand that I have plenty.


----------



## BigBadWolf

r2d210 said:


> What I wish I could do....risking being tacky here, but I wish I could hang out with BBW, Conrad, or even your husband Trenton. Just to see how they deal with daily stuff. Honestly, if my wife could see how you treat your husbands, I think it could positive. I will look for positive role models for this. I think it can't hurt. I will look for men who are respected by their wives...., but honestly, off the top of my head, I can't think of any! I can think of many more men who the women control. It is a product of our society and I'm so guilty of allowing it to happen. Its shameful, and like many of you have pointed out....how can my W respect me if I don't respenct myself. I know one thing, I get more respect from work...! My boss is very dominate. My wife thinks he is a jerk! (Of course!) He reminds me of Bob, where it's his way or the hwy. I think that what the men here have shared is very close to where I need to be. Fair, balanced, positive, in control emtotionally, and demanding respect.


This is a good observation.

The role models, or behavior, would be ideal to see. But careful that you understand all this, the irony of all this maybe, that these structures are real, the cause and effect is real, the unmentionable sex and reckless intimacy are within grasp of any good man that chooses to grasp it. 

But the point of all this, for you, the good man, to become your own leader.

You are the good man your woman has fallen for, do not lose sight of this, never forget this, think of her as your biggest fan, because she is! 

Do not believe even for a second you trying to become some other man.

If you see in hindsight your reaction to some fitness test is less than stellar, so what? 

LIke learning a new musical instrument, practice again and again until it flows naturally, then just forget everything you studied tediously and practiced with deliberation, and instead use the instrument to speak what is in your core as if you were simply born playing like a master! 

Fitness test, millions of men come and go on this earth never realizing the concept of fitness test their whole life. How far ahead of this are you now than so many other men that would given so much to even understand half these things?

Your woman, when she fitness tests, she is not fitness testing to see you fail, she is testing only to see the mettle of the good man she fell for. 

Remember this, and behave only in this way, no other. 

Pay not much attention to the words, but pay attention to your attitude and behavior, calm, confident, in control.

And make it your practice to discover and demonstrate from your own initiative ways to show your masculine mettle and dominance. This will reduce fitness testing, because when you do these things, there is no need.

Text message your woman your intense sexual desires.

Every day make it a point to communicate with your woman at least one success in your life. A success in your career, in your hobby or interest, some goal you have reached at the gym, etc. 

Reduce the word "love" from your vocabulary, and subsitute with more detailed expressions of affection and desire.

Reduce the phrase "I'm sorry" from your vocabulary. Diminish the automatic apologies and deferments from day to day communication. An apology from you, if and when it happens, then there is no doubt it is genuine and sincere and it WILL be noticed.

Compliment your woman by complimenting yourself. "Aren't I quite an exceptional man for attracting/winning/f_cking such a beautiful/sexy/hot/desirable woman as yourself?" Find humorous and CREATIVE ways to communicate these type of feelings and attitude to your woman in some way every day. 

Do something to give your woman something to complain about. The running, some other hobby, spend a little money now and then, come home a little later without saying so, give your woman a slightly ironic compliment (use humor!).

These types of suggestions, the good man that implements these sorts of actions and behavior and attitude, they are as passing fitness tests without waiting for them to appear.


----------



## Trenton

r2d210 said:


> What I wish I could do....risking being tacky here, but I wish I could hang out with BBW, Conrad, or even your husband Trenton. Just to see how they deal with daily stuff. Honestly, if my wife could see how you treat your husbands, I think it could positive. I will look for positive role models for this. I think it can't hurt. I will look for men who are respected by their wives...., but honestly, off the top of my head, I can't think of any! I can think of many more men who the women control. It is a product of our society and I'm so guilty of allowing it to happen. Its shameful, and like many of you have pointed out....how can my W respect me if I don't respenct myself. I know one thing, I get more respect from work...! My boss is very dominate. My wife thinks he is a jerk! (Of course!) He reminds me of Bob, where it's his way or the hwy. I think that what the men here have shared is very close to where I need to be. Fair, balanced, positive, in control emtotionally, and demanding respect.


It is a difficult balance and one that is always a work in progress. You can't find happiness unless you are willing to fight for it but my caution is to also be flexible. 

My parents have a similar relationship as your wife's parents. Married 42 years in April and my very likable father is a slave to my very overbearing mother or at least this is how it always appeared to my sister and I. I once confronted my father on this and he told me that I've no idea how wonderful, beautiful and kind my mother is or I wouldn't ask him any questions about their relationship. He told me flat out that the one thing he can give her is comfort with herself and he wants to do that, has never thought of leaving or trying to change her and understands that when she feels like she is in control she feels safe and safety & love has always been what he has been able to offer her. He told me that their shared life together is the one thing that has always brought him joy. He actually said the word joy...

I'm watching their dog while they go for a weekend out in NYC and they left just a few minutes ago with her bickering over the fact that he didn't wear a suit jacket. It was comical.

I don't know if this is how your wife's father feels but I think the intricacies of a relationship cannot be summed up by the outside. Keep this in mind. There is a reason they're still married. I never saw my parent's relationship the same since I had that conversation with my Dad a few years ago and truly, I admire him and my mother.


----------



## nice777guy

Trenton said:


> It is a difficult balance and one that is always a work in progress. You can't find happiness unless you are willing to fight for it but my caution is to also be flexible.
> 
> My parents have a similar relationship as your wife's parents. Married 42 years in April and my very likable father is a slave to my very overbearing mother or at least this is how it always appeared to my sister and I. I once confronted my father on this and he told me that I've no idea how wonderful, beautiful and kind my mother is or I wouldn't ask him any questions about their relationship. He told me flat out that the one thing he can give her is comfort with herself and he wants to do that, has never thought of leaving or trying to change her and understands that when she feels like she is in control she feels safe and safety & love has always been what he has been able to offer her. He told me that their shared life together is the one thing that has always brought him joy. He actually said the word joy...
> 
> I'm watching their dog while they go for a weekend out in NYC and they left just a few minutes ago with her bickering over the fact that he didn't wear a suit jacket. It was comical.
> 
> I don't know if this is how your wife's father feels but I think the intricacies of a relationship cannot be summed up by the outside. Keep this in mind. There is a reason they're still married. I never saw my parent's relationship the same since I had that conversation with my Dad a few years ago and truly, I admire him and my mother.


I was just thinking what a shame it is that our best role models - our parents - hide so much from us as kids. Most of us have no real idea how marriage should work until we are knee deep into it.

I think it would be easier to have a clinical discussion with children about sex than it would be to discuss with them how to deal with marriage - the raw attraction, passion, compromise, conflict resolution, reality, apathy, lust, anger, temptation, etc.,


----------



## Trenton

nice777guy said:


> I was just thinking what a shame it is that our best role models - our parents - hide so much from us as kids. Most of us have no real idea how marriage should work until we are knee deep into it.
> 
> I think it would be easier to have a clinical discussion with children about sex than it would be to discuss with them how to deal with marriage - the raw attraction, passion, compromise, conflict resolution, reality, apathy, lust, anger, temptation, etc.,


So absolutely true. We seem to allow our children to grow up with only a half clue on everything from the realities of sex, raising kids and marriage.


----------



## nice777guy

Trenton said:


> So absolutely true. We seem to allow our children to grow up with only a half clue on everything from the realities of sex, raising kids and marriage.


I think its mostly because:

A) We barely understand it ourselves

B) We are afraid to be honest with our kids - we shield them from reality as much as possible


----------



## Trenton

nice777guy said:


> I think its mostly because:
> 
> A) We barely understand it ourselves
> 
> B) We are afraid to be honest with our kids - we shield them from reality as much as possible


True but I'm working to change this with my own kids. I want them to know so they can make better decisions whenever they are forced to make those decisions. They know, no matter what, we'll both be here to catch them if they fall.


----------



## Conrad

Trenton said:


> True but I'm working to change this with my own kids. I want them to know so they can make better decisions whenever they are forced to make those decisions. They know, no matter what, we'll both be here to catch them if they fall.


But all we can communicate is "our truth."

Sadly, most only learn from their own mistakes.

(Present company included)


----------



## Trenton

Conrad said:


> But all we can communicate is "our truth."
> 
> Sadly, most only learn from their own mistakes.
> 
> (Present company included)


Me as well, was talking to a close friend about this today as she was having a pity party about her past. Still, information helps. It would have been nice to know that fairy tales don't exist, a woman can only cum after working out her own body with a guy who understands this and that your boobs get really hard as a rock right after having a child.


----------



## greenpearl

BigBadWolf said:


> This is a good observation.
> 
> The role models, or behavior, would be ideal to see. But careful that you understand all this, the irony of all this maybe, that these structures are real, the cause and effect is real, the unmentionable sex and reckless intimacy are within grasp of any good man that chooses to grasp it.
> 
> But the point of all this, for you, the good man, to become your own leader.
> 
> You are the good man your woman has fallen for, do not lose sight of this, never forget this, think of her as your biggest fan, because she is!
> 
> Do not believe even for a second you trying to become some other man.
> 
> If you see in hindsight your reaction to some fitness test is less than stellar, so what?
> 
> LIke learning a new musical instrument, practice again and again until it flows naturally, then just forget everything you studied tediously and practiced with deliberation, and instead use the instrument to speak what is in your core as if you were simply born playing like a master!
> 
> Fitness test, millions of men come and go on this earth never realizing the concept of fitness test their whole life. How far ahead of this are you now than so many other men that would given so much to even understand half these things?
> 
> Your woman, when she fitness tests, she is not fitness testing to see you fail, she is testing only to see the mettle of the good man she fell for.
> 
> Remember this, and behave only in this way, no other.
> 
> Pay not much attention to the words, but pay attention to your attitude and behavior, calm, confident, in control.
> 
> And make it your practice to discover and demonstrate from your own initiative ways to show your masculine mettle and dominance. This will reduce fitness testing, because when you do these things, there is no need.
> 
> Text message your woman your intense sexual desires.
> 
> Every day make it a point to communicate with your woman at least one success in your life. A success in your career, in your hobby or interest, some goal you have reached at the gym, etc.
> 
> Reduce the word "love" from your vocabulary, and subsitute with more detailed expressions of affection and desire.
> 
> Reduce the phrase "I'm sorry" from your vocabulary. Diminish the automatic apologies and deferments from day to day communication. An apology from you, if and when it happens, then there is no doubt it is genuine and sincere and it WILL be noticed.
> 
> Compliment your woman by complimenting yourself. "Aren't I quite an exceptional man for attracting/winning/f_cking such a beautiful/sexy/hot/desirable woman as yourself?" Find humorous and CREATIVE ways to communicate these type of feelings and attitude to your woman in some way every day.
> 
> Do something to give your woman something to complain about. The running, some other hobby, spend a little money now and then, come home a little later without saying so, give your woman a slightly ironic compliment (use humor!).
> 
> These types of suggestions, the good man that implements these sorts of actions and behavior and attitude, they are as passing fitness tests without waiting for them to appear.


I am your fan!


----------



## greenpearl

R2,

Here I am going to say something about my husband's hobbies. 

I need a lot of time and attention, in this area, I am also different from other women, so please don't be worried. I need a lot of time and attention because I used to have a strong sense of insecurity from my childhood. I didn't have a loving father, this is off topic. I'll stop here. 

The good thing about my husband, he is able to give me all the time and attention I need. We are both private school teachers, part time, we each teach about 20 hours a week, plus commute and extra time at school, call it 30 hours. 

My husband chooses to do things when I am not home. He used to like to go to coffee shops, he wanted to go there to read, I asked him why he couldn't read at home, he said he needed to get out and be around people even though there was no interaction. I didn't keep on asking him questions, as long as he spends that quiet afternoon doing things to make him happy and I had to something else at school. It is not like, I am at home, he goes to a coffee shop. If this is the case, I will go with him together. That continued for two years, every Tuesday afternoon, he would go to a coffee shop and just drink coffee and read. I was always happy to know what he learned and who he talked to that afternoon. 

Then he wanted to buy his own coffee machine. I was like: " Are you sure you know how to use that machine". The kind of machine he wanted is not push button and coffee comes out. The machine he wanted was made in Italy. He had to do a lot of learning, a lot of stuff is manual. I had a lot of doubts at the beginning. I didn't want to waste money on something he doesn't know how to use. But as a man he is, he didn't let me stop him. He did a lot of research, then he told me he wanted to buy that machine. First he wanted to buy a second hand machine since he knows me to be very thrifty, that's money unnecessary. I told him to buy a brand new one, I told him: If you want to buy something, buy something nice, I don't like it when you have to have it fixed all the time. I hate the kind of hassle. He ordered one from Italy, it is a very pretty thing. He learned very hard, he practiced very hard. Now, I really respect him for being this determined and consistent. The Latte he makes for me from that machine is just superb. I didn't drink coffee before. After he bought that machine, I started drinking coffee every day. And now I can tell coffee from Starbucks really sucks, even other unique coffee shops can't make the kind of Latte he makes for me, he puts in a lot of effort and love making that Latte for me. I benefit from his hobby. And this year when he wanted to buy a coffee bean roaster, I said just go for it since I know he'll try hard to learn and he won't waste money like I do. I am very lousy here, I start doing something, I get excited at the beginning, then I get bored, then I quit, I waster money. I have never succeeded having a good hobby which I continue. I view studying English my hobby, that's something I continued. So I was judging my husband based on my own personality, I doubted him because I failed myself. My husband didn't give in to me, he continued with his hobby, he succeeded, I respect him. 

This year, he started something new, using a straight razor to shave. You are a man, you know shaving. You know what you normally use, those kind of electric razors or Gellet. He wanted to use a straight razor. He bought something cheap from a supermarket, and he tried, he cut himself everywhere on the face, I had a good laugh, and I couldn't wait to tell his mom and dad about it. But he just kept on learning and searching for information. Again, he ordered one from Europe. Now he is doing a great job after two months of practicing. Again, he gained my respect. 

He likes to read, he likes movies, he likes coffee, now he is into shaving his face with a straight razor. 

All of his hobbies can be done at home. So he spends a lot of time at home. He gets to satisfy himself, I get to spend time with him together. 

But in this area, I am different. I need a lot of my husband's time. 

Women want security, they want faithful men. If you prove yourself a very faithful man, she won't mind it if you spend time away from her. My husband goes out and has coffee with his friends, I don't question. But you do have to find a balance. Invite her to go along with you when she has time. Every night staying out late is not a good idea, but once or twice in a week should be OK. She can come along if she wants to spend time with you, or she can find things to do herself. 

Anyway, when she is busy doing her own stuff, you should use that time for your hobby!


----------



## AFEH

r2d210 said:


> He reminds me of Bob, where it's his way or the hwy. I think that what the men here have shared is very close to where I need to be. Fair, balanced, positive, in control emtotionally, and demanding respect.


How very wrong you are. I was with my wife for 42 years married for nearly 38. My way or the highway? You just haven’t got a clue. My wife brought me more joy and happiness than one man deserves in a lifetime and she was exceptionally well looked after and like me for the much bigger part joyful and happy. I was truly blessed to have my wife by my side for decades.

But you know like me you too may find you will get to the point in your marriage where it will indeed be for you, or your wife come to that “my way or the highway”. At the moment you have begun to assert and stand up for yourself, essentially the things in your marriage you will and you will not tolerate from your wife. And your wife will indeed respond to that and that response will be either positive or negative.

Your wife may very well become very much more entrenched in who she is at her very core and you may well not like at all what you see there and be unable to tolerate it any longer. It will be interesting to see if you have the balls to carrying on asserting yourself or leave your marriage.

“Demand respect”. Oh deary deary me.

Bob


----------



## SimplyAmorous

AFEH said:


> I’m just not the sort of person who will be spoken to like a child or controlled. I’m just not that sort of person. It quite simply is not in my genes.
> 
> Here’s an example. I have a mate I played squash with once a week. I thoroughly enjoyed it, very competitive and a really good game. We’d been playing for about 6 months. I said at a dinner one evening “Still on for squash at 10 tomorrow?”. His wife stepped in and said “Your not playing squash tomorrow I’ve jobs lined up for you”. Know what? He didn’t play even though he’d agreed to play and knew nothing of the “jobs”.
> 
> About a month later as they were getting out of my car I said “Still ok for tomorrow?”. In jumped his wife again “He hasn’t asked me yet!”. I said to myself “A third time and that’s it”. It happened a third time and we haven’t played since. I absolutely refused to accept that my time was going to be controlled by his wife. My mate is a good husband, how he could let his wife get away with it I simply don’t know.
> 
> I have almost zero tolerance for belittling, demeaning, controlling women and I will do Nothing to Appease them.
> 
> That’s what you Nice Guys are doing. You are appeasing belittling, demeaning, controlling women.
> 
> And look where it’s got you. Seeking permission to go out for a run, or going for a run when your wife doesn’t know about it. That’s not “life”. At least not for me.



I recall a few weeks ago, I read something you wrote about your wife & it was VERY VERY moving, beautiful infact & for the life of me I could not understand WHY she would harber such fierce unrelenting resentment umteen yrs towards you- so bad that you & her are done. I have to wonder, since you say this is "in your genes", did you treat your own wife like this? I am sure every wife on the face of the planet, at some time, has done what your friends wife has done here.

My Nice Guy husband has never dispalyed your attitude expressed here towards me. He even tells his friends, who want help with their vehicles, or whatever, a drink after work, he calls me, runs it by me, many times he even tells them to 1st speak to the wife as I handle the family schedule, with 6 kids, it can be a little chaotic! And sometimes things really DO need done at home, a leaky faucet, who knows. I do not deny him his time with his friends, or outside fun away from us. It makes ME feel good inside that he cares THAT much to consider how I/we would feel 1st. I never told him to do this, he just has always done it. 


If My husband ever came at me like this, this attitude I feel displayed in your post, I would feel as though he SPIT on me, even if I was in the wrong. I understand what you are getting at here, I really do. And some wives should not be like this, I agree. But maybe they have been put on the back burner one too many times also. I just have to wonder if this was ONE of the reasons your wife felt such resentment, if she did this a couple times & got THIS above reaction in return. 

I very very much appreciate my husband for being the way he is. The problem is when the wife doesn't or looses sight of the Loving nature he gives day in & day out & abuses it's kindness.


----------



## greenpearl

My husband and I were discussing something today. 

You men all know business, so it is easy for you to understand. 

But it is difficult for me to express. 

He said good companies promote good corporate culture, they try very hard to encourage employees to show their best qualities. But bad companies use all the wrong ways to deal with their employees. Same people, they show their good side in this company, but bad side in the other company. 

People have good side and bad side. What do you do to let them show their good side to you? This is ART!


----------



## AFEH

SimplyAmorous said:


> I recall a few weeks ago, I read something you wrote about your wife & it was VERY VERY moving, beautiful infact & for the life of me I could not understand WHY she would harber such fierce unrelenting resentment umteen yrs towards you- so bad that you & her are done. I have to wonder, since you say this is "in your genes", did you treat your own wife like this? I am sure every wife on the face of the planet, at some time, has done what your friends wife has done here.


SimplyAmorous, my wife didn’t, not ever. It wasn’t due to my intolerance. It was due to the type of woman my wife is/was. 

And no I didn’t treat my wife like that. I was way overboard with forgiveness, empathy, compassion and all those nice things. Putting up boundaries, things we will no longer tolerate has at times quite amazing effects. And it happens exceptionally quickly.

Bob


----------



## AFEH

greenpearl said:


> My husband and I were discussing something today.
> 
> You men all know business, so it is easy for you to understand.
> 
> But it is difficult for me to express.
> 
> He said good companies promote good corporate culture, they try very hard to encourage employees to show their best qualities. But bad companies use all the wrong ways to deal with their employees. Same people, they show their good side in this company, but bad side in the other company.
> 
> People have good side and bad side. What do you do to let them show their good side to you? This is ART!


Jung calls it the “shadow” our dark side. We’ve all got a shadow side but most of us can’t see our own shadow although others can see and feel our shadow. Some people who think they are perfect and without fault wont even accept they have a shadow but if we’re into self improvement and individuation it is the best place to start.

In some ways this whole thread is about the journey of individuation for R2.

A lot of us in our late 50s and early 60s have accepted our process of individuation cannot continue while being held back by the unsaid rules of the marriage. No matter how hard and how many things we try compromise is no longer the way ahead because we’ve compromised the essence of who we are as an individual. We discover that in order to be who we are and keep on growing the only way ahead is to leave the marriage.

Bob


----------



## greenpearl

AFEH said:


> Jung calls it the “shadow” our dark side. We’ve all got a shadow side but most of us can’t see our own shadow although others can see and feel our shadow. Some people who think they are perfect and without fault wont even accept they have a shadow but if we’re into self improvement and individuation it is the best place to start.
> 
> In some ways this whole thread is about the journey of individuation for R2.
> 
> A lot of us in our late 50s and early 60s have accepted our process of individuation cannot continue while being held back by the unsaid rules of the marriage. No matter how hard and how many things we try compromise is no longer the way ahead because we’ve compromised the essence of who we are as an individual. We discover that in order to be who we are and keep on growing the only way ahead is to leave the marriage.
> 
> Bob


Bob,
It will be nice to have someone loving to take walks with us together when we are old. 

I know it is difficult to change our personalities since we are old, but if we are determined to do it, I do think it is possible!

Will power!

Bob, 

I have seen you posting very good stuff about your wife. Sound like she has a lot of things you like her about. 

Is it possible for you to go back to her? 

Will she learn to let it go and become civil to you? 

Doesn't she want a man to be beside her now since she is old? 

I can't live my life alone. 

I feel bad when I see people live alone. 

Maybe I am only seeing life from my eyes.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

This is how my Nice Guy husband would have delt with me If I demeaningly was pi**y about some spilt dishwasher water - he would have said back to me "Who Pi**ed in your corn flakes this morning?" 

He has used that line on me a # of times in our marraige. I feel this response is good, it pushes it back to me & MY attitude.


----------



## greenpearl

My husband calls me " Chinadoll " when I am sweet. Chinadoll is my nickname! He gave it to me. 

When I am being bixchy, he calls me "woman"

I don't like to be called" woman", so now I try not to be bixchy!


----------



## Conrad

SimplyAmorous said:


> This is how my Nice Guy husband would have delt with me If I demeaningly was pi**y about some spilt dishwasher water - he would have said back to me "Who Pi**ed in your corn flakes this morning?"
> 
> He has used that line on me a # of times in our marraige. I feel this response is good, it pushes it back to me & MY attitude.


And he would have counted on your graciousness to accept that logical rebuke.

Not all men are that lucky.


----------



## Conrad

Bob,

I've encountered my "shadow side" over the past 5-6 years.

I'm reconciled with it now.

I realize that others have had to deal with it for years.

Very humbling.


----------



## r2d210

AFEH said:


> I’m just not the sort of person who will be spoken to like a child or controlled. I’m just not that sort of person. It quite simply is not in my genes.
> 
> Here’s an example. I have a mate I played squash with once a week. I thoroughly enjoyed it, very competitive and a really good game. We’d been playing for about 6 months. I said at a dinner one evening “Still on for squash at 10 tomorrow?”. His wife stepped in and said “Your not playing squash tomorrow I’ve jobs lined up for you”. Know what? He didn’t play even though he’d agreed to play and knew nothing of the “jobs”.
> 
> About a month later as they were getting out of my car I said “Still ok for tomorrow?”. In jumped his wife again “He hasn’t asked me yet!”. I said to myself “A third time and that’s it”. It happened a third time and we haven’t played since. I absolutely refused to accept that my time was going to be controlled by his wife. My mate is a good husband, how he could let his wife get away with it I simply don’t know.
> 
> I have almost zero tolerance for belittling, demeaning, controlling women and I will do Nothing to Appease them.
> 
> That’s what you Nice Guys are doing. You are appeasing belittling, demeaning, controlling women.
> 
> And look where it’s got you. Seeking permission to go out for a run, or going for a run when your wife doesn’t know about it. That’s not “life”. At least not for me.
> 
> Bob


Bob, it is this initial information you posted that I felt you were very "stong" in your comment. Didn't mean to offend you if I have you wrong. My Bad,......every post here has been positive and you seemed to me, to be of the nature against what I'm trying to accomplish. If you are not really like that, then so be it, lets move on! Your help in this matter is absolutely greatly appreciated! Thanks for clairifying....


----------



## Conrad

r2d210 said:


> Bob, it is this initial information you posted that I felt you were very "stong" in your comment. Didn't mean to offend you if I have you wrong. My Bad,......every post here has been positive and you seemed to me, to be of the nature against what I'm trying to accomplish. If you are not really like that, then so be it, lets move on! Your help in this matter is absolutely greatly appreciated! Thanks for clairifying....


rd,

You're going to have to get over this "nice guy" thing.

I assure you, Bob's not really worried about it.


----------



## AFEH

Conrad said:


> rd,
> 
> You're going to have to get over this "nice guy" thing.
> 
> I assure you, Bob's not really worried about it.


Well there ain’t many people I let speak on my behalf. But you have hit the nail on the head Conrad. Bloody chemists lol.

Yup. I truly hope he digs really deep and finds the Man in himself. I really do. Right now he is way too conciliatory and nowhere enough challenging.

I feel like I’m being appeased, like being slapped with a wet rag by you R2.

For goodness sake R2 challenge your wife. You are doing so well with not asking for “permission” to go running and to “live”. So very well. Old habits die hard. You are making new ones. Keep going.

Do not ask anyone for their “permission” to be who you want to be.

Bob


----------



## greenpearl

Ha,

I see it is easy for men to get over their disputes. 

How about women? 

I am here wondering!

R2,

I actually feel Bob is using another way to wake you up and let you realize how serious and important for you to man up from now on. He also wants you to be cautious! 

I feel when you are first married, you set up your rules, it is easy to follow your rules. After so many years being like one way, and suddenly you want to reverse it to another way, she gets confused and lost, and she might use revenge to attack you. Don't underestimate women, they are tough to deal with. 

I am looking forward to hear the result of your experiment!

I want you to be happy!

Hey, who can tell me more about Border Collie? 

I like Border Collie. 

My husband told me they are very smart. They are the smartest!


----------



## nice777guy

greenpearl said:


> I actually feel Bob is using another way to wake you up and let you realize how serious and important for you to man up from now on. He also wants you to be cautious!


Bob hasn't drank the Kool-Aid around here - he's just made his own pitcher!

Funny how when you aren't in the middle of the conversation that you can see how two people might be mis-reading each other.

Hope you're having a good weekend R2. Hang in there, and remember there will be set-backs. It takes some time and practice to get things moving in the right direction.


----------



## greenpearl

nice777guy said:


> Bob hasn't drank the Kool-Aid around here - he's just made his own pitcher!
> 
> Funny how when you aren't in the middle of the conversation that you can see how two people might be mis-reading each other.
> 
> Hope you're having a good weekend R2. Hang in there, and remember there will be set-backs. It takes some time and practice to get things moving in the right direction.


NG,

I am good, aren't I?

It isn't the truth. 

I finished reading the whole thread!

I saw all of you guys help R2 first, I was very happy. 

Then I saw Wolf appeared, I was super happy. 

Then I got lost by Bob's posts. No offense to Bob, I find that lap-dog analogy very inappropriate and insulting. If women treat their men like this, then the whole world is ending. We argue, we bixch, but women should never treat their men like this. Yesterday I saw a post about treating him like a xxx, I was very disappointed. 

My theory, 

Treat your man like the president, you are the wise woman, you make suggestion, he nods his head or vetoes. When he vetoes, you shouldn't pout or whine. He has the authority, he is the head. Or at least treat him the way you want to be treated. Respect! 



I want all of you nice men have happiness and love in life! Nice men deserve these!


----------



## MEM2020

GP,
Yes you are good. 

R2,
Have you identified patterns of bad behavior on her part? Patterns are very good. They allow you to create and refine a specific tactic you plan to use. And to simply have it ready at all times so when the patterned behavior appears you respond in an effective manner. 

Most people behave in a patterned/predictable manner and studying it, as well as measuring ongoing frequency after you start your tactics, will give you a sense of progress....






greenpearl said:


> NG,
> 
> I am good, aren't I?
> 
> It isn't the truth.
> 
> I finished reading the whole thread!
> 
> I saw all of you guys help R2 first, I was very happy.
> 
> Then I saw Wolf appeared, I was super happy.
> 
> Then I got lost by Bob's posts. No offense to Bob, I find that lap-dog analogy very inappropriate and insulting. If women treat their men like this, then the whole world is ending. We argue, we bixch, but women should never treat their men like this. Yesterday I saw a post about treating him like a xxx, I was very disappointed.
> 
> My theory,
> 
> Treat your man like the president, you are the wise woman, you make suggestion, he nods his head or vetoes. When he vetoes, you shouldn't pout or whine. He has the authority, he is the head. Or at least treat him the way you want to be treated. Respect!
> 
> 
> 
> I want all of you nice men have happiness and love in life! Nice men deserve these!


----------



## Needhelp911

how do i post a new thread ?


----------



## AFEH

Conrad said:


> Bob,
> 
> I've encountered my "shadow side" over the past 5-6 years.
> 
> I'm reconciled with it now.
> 
> I realize that others have had to deal with it for years.
> 
> Very humbling.


Conrad. Yes. It can be hard to accept but rewarding at the same time.

The confusing thing for me is what is shadow for one is light for another. I guess that’s why different people get on or don’t get on together.

The shadow is where the conflict is. And people find it hard to accept their own role in conflict because they find it hard, even at times refuse, to accept they have a shadow side to them.

It’s the shadow where all the tension is. Tension is energy and energy can bring great change.

Bob


----------



## AFEH

Needhelp911 said:


> how do i post a new thread ?


Go to the top of the forum then into any sub forum. Top left hand side "New Thread".

Bob


----------



## AFEH

greenpearl said:


> My theory,
> 
> Treat your man like the president, you are the wise woman, you make suggestion, he nods his head or vetoes. When he vetoes, you shouldn't pout or whine. He has the authority, he is the head. Or at least treat him the way you want to be treated. Respect!


True respect is earned GP. Without mutual respect in a marriage there is nothing. We get respect through our credibility and integrity and what we “do”, not what we “say”. We have to walk the talk to be respected.

Respect can be “demanded” all day long 365 days of the year but never forthcoming. Demanding respect is to lose respect.

Bob


----------



## greenpearl

AFEH said:


> Conrad. Yes. It can be hard to accept but rewarding at the same time.
> 
> The confusing thing for me is what is shadow for one is light for another. I guess that’s why different people get on or don’t get on together.
> 
> The shadow is where the conflict is. And people find it hard to accept their own role in conflict because they find it hard, even at times refuse, to accept they have a shadow side to them.
> 
> It’s the shadow where all the tension is. Tension is energy and energy can bring great change.
> 
> Bob


The biggest problem for people is that they don't know who they are. Once they realize who they are and what kind of problems they have, then changing becomes easy. It needs humility. It needs a lot of courage to admit that the problem is me not the other person. 

A couple of years ago, I started to work on myself, it was really discouraging to know that I had so many problems to work on. Once I overcome this problem, then I have that problem. It is humiliating to know that I am not that good. 

But now I have realized that people who are really confident, they are also humble too. I just tell myself: It is OK, it is OK that I have so many problems to work on. My goal is to achieve peace and happiness in life, in order to achieve that, I have to work on myself..................


----------



## greenpearl

AFEH said:


> True respect is earned GP. Without mutual respect in a marriage there is nothing. We get respect through our credibility and integrity and what we “do”, not what we “say”. We have to walk the talk to be respected.
> 
> Respect can be “demanded” all day long 365 days of the year but never forthcoming. Demanding respect is to lose respect.
> 
> Bob



Very well said, Bob!

That's why I keep on saying that men have to be faithful, responsible, and strong. 

I remember this incident. My husband really likes Macau( He likes Asian culture), we had to go back to China to visit my parents, he told me that he wanted to go to Macau, so I arranged for us to stay in Macau for a few days. It was not cheap, and we just got married, we didn't have much money. When we arrived in Macau, I was very disappointed and frustrated, dirty city with dirty buildings, not my kind of traveling. I was bixching a lot, just kept on bixching, showing my frustration. My husband finally lost his control, he pushed me to the bed by pressing each of my hand so I couldn't struggle, he didn't hurt me. He yelled:" Woman, why are you like this?.................." I was totally lost, I really didn't expect that to happen, I thought that he would just let me complain and complain and put up with me. You know what, I stopped bixching, I started to enjoy our days in Macau. I don't know why. I don't like to see my husband angry. He has a very good temper, he is very loving to me when I behave myself. When he gets angry, it means something is wrong with me and he can't stand it anymore. I know that, so when my husband starts to yell at me, I become quiet right away. 

This is me, something for you to have fun! 

I am stubborn, well-known for that at home. The first question my brother asked my husband was: My sister is stubborn, isn't she?"

But I have changed a lot now! I give my husband the credit! He really helped me improve! And he deserves all my respect!


----------



## AFEH

greenpearl said:


> The biggest problem for people is that they don't know who they are. Once they realize who they are and what kind of problems they have, then changing becomes easy. It needs humility. It needs a lot of courage to admit that the problem is me not the other person.
> 
> A couple of years ago, I started to work on myself, it was really discouraging to know that I had so many problems to work on. Once I overcome this problem, then I have that problem. It is humiliating to know that I am not that good.
> 
> But now I have realized that people who are really confident, they are also humble too. I just tell myself: It is OK, it is OK that I have so many problems to work on. My goal is to achieve peace and happiness in life, in order to achieve that, I have to work on myself..................


Yes but doesn’t “who we are” change over time? The change is based on the importance we attach to things in our life. At one time in my life I was an engineer and thoroughly enjoyed it. I could have carried on with that career but needed more fulfilment, a bigger challenge in my life so I adopted the role of a business man. I am one of life’s adopters, I like being the agent of change, to be the catalyst for change. Adapting is fine in it’s place, but it can erode our sense of “self”.

Us humans are the most adaptive species in the world. Even within our own life time we adapt and change as our situations change.

But while we are adapting to the world we live in, essentially in this case our marriage, we are also on a personal path of individuation. Individuation is a path toward a goal but a goal that can never be reached.

For some of us adapting and changing means we get too far off of the path of individuation.

We adapt ourselves off of the path of the person we were meant to be or the person we want to be and lose our sense of “self”. We become truly entangled emotionally, psychologically and intellectually with our life partner. In those cases the only way to get back onto the path of individuation is to adopt new behaviour and to stop adapting to maintain the status quo.

In a marriage that can quite simply be a rejection of the status quo. What was valid in the past is no longer valid in the present or future. And I believe we do that best by setting our boundaries. Things that we will not longer tolerate of our selves and things we will no longer tolerate from our life’s partner. While at the same time somehow trying to keep things together. It’s a juggling and balancing act going through the process of adopting change to regain our true sense of self and get right back on the path of individuation.

Sometimes our marriage doesn’t survive our need to individuate and individuation wins out. It wins simply because we cannot be who we want to be while at the same time remain in our marriage.

Bob


----------



## greenpearl

AFEH said:


> Yes but doesn’t “who we are” change over time? The change is based on the importance we attach to things in our life. At one time in my life I was an engineer and thoroughly enjoyed it. I could have carried on with that career but needed more fulfilment, a bigger challenge in my life so I adopted the role of a business man. I am one of life’s adopters, I like being the agent of change, to be the catalyst for change. Adapting is fine in it’s place, but it can erode our sense of “self”.
> 
> Us humans are the most adaptive species in the world. Even within our own life time we adapt and change as our situations change.
> 
> But while we are adapting to the world we live in, essentially in this case our marriage, we are also on a personal path of individuation. Individuation is a path toward a goal but a goal that can never be reached.
> 
> For some of us adapting and changing means we get too far off of the path of individuation.
> 
> We adapt ourselves off of the path of the person we were meant to be or the person we want to be and lose our sense of “self”. We become truly entangled emotionally, psychologically and intellectually with our life partner. In those cases the only way to get back onto the path of individuation is to adopt new behaviour and to stop adapting to maintain the status quo.
> 
> In a marriage that can quite simply be a rejection of the status quo. What was valid in the past is no longer valid in the present or future. And I believe we do that best by setting our boundaries. Things that we will not longer tolerate of our selves and things we will no longer tolerate from our life’s partner. While at the same time somehow trying to keep things together. It’s a juggling and balancing act going through the process of adopting change to regain our true sense of self and get right back on the path of individuation.
> 
> Sometimes our marriage doesn’t survive our need to individuate and individuation wins out. It wins simply because we cannot be who we want to be while at the same time remain in our marriage.
> 
> Bob


I understand that people are not happy with their present life and they always want a better life or something different. 

That's called discontent. It is actually not good for us to achieve happiness. 

We are always told to be content with what we have, but how many people can understand that and live with that? People always want more, want something better, want something higher. Then they can't be satisfied with their present life. 

I was frustrated with my EX not just because of the emotional void, he was never happy with what he had, he always wanted more and better, and that gave me a lot of pressure. If he could do it by himself, then that's good. He couldn't, he wanted me to talk to some influential people I knew and help him achieve that, that really made me look down upon him and I lost my respect for him. When a woman loses her respect for her man, it is very difficult for her to be sexually attracted to him. 

With my ability, I can apply for a better job in a big company, I choose not to do it. My husband is a teacher, I am a teacher, our schedule works very well for each other. We choose to look for hours at the same time, so both of us stay at home the same time. We have agreed to live a simple life, we choose not to pursue fancy life style, not to pursue a big car and a big house, not to pursue social status. 

We are happy with our simple life. 

The good thing about us is that both of us want the same thing!


----------



## AFEH

Interesting dynamics GP and a lot of honesty. Sounds like you got your husband to a place with you that he quite simply could no longer tolerate and he truly asserted himself. He became truly and fundamentally intolerant of your behaviour.

I don’t agree with the way he did it but that doesn’t mean I’m right and it certainly worked for the two of you and that’s what it is all about. And your husband’s intolerance of your behaviour brought a big and very quick change in you. That’s what setting boundaries on intolerable behaviour does.

The intolerable behaviour brought about a conflict and the way the conflict was handled changed things for the good. Conflict avoidance to “keep the peace” or for whatever reason is never a good thing in my mind. The way we handle conflict though is very important.

And bless you GP. You recognised you were very stubborn and changed yourself. Stubbornness, the abiding steadfast assertion of a principle that is so obviously not valid and a total inability to see the other’s point of view and not to accept that their point of view is valid for them isn’t the right way to go.

Bob


----------



## greenpearl

AFEH said:


> Interesting dynamics GP and a lot of honesty. Sounds like you got your husband to a place with you that he quite simply could no longer tolerate and he truly asserted himself. He became truly and fundamentally intolerant of your behaviour.
> 
> I don’t agree with the way he did it but that doesn’t mean I’m right and it certainly worked for the two of you and that’s what it is all about. And your husband’s intolerance of your behaviour brought a big and very quick change in you. That’s what setting boundaries on intolerable behaviour does.
> 
> The intolerable behaviour brought about a conflict and the way the conflict was handled changed things for the good. Conflict avoidance to “keep the peace” or for whatever reason is never a good thing in my mind. The way we handle conflict though is very important.
> 
> And bless you GP. You recognised you were very stubborn and changed yourself. Stubbornness, the abiding steadfast assertion of a principle that is so obviously not valid and a total inability to see the other’s point of view and not to accept that their point of view is valid for them isn’t the right way to go.
> 
> Bob


Normally my husband is very sweet and loving. He has a very good temper, he doesn't get upset or angry easily. Well mannered, easy going!

But if I started bixching and nagging about him, he wouldn't put up with me. 

I was just a normal woman, liked to bottle things up and then explode. He got lost when I became upset, he didn't know why I should have been angry or bothered. He doesn't allow yelling or screaming. He told me it is OK for me to show frustration, but if I yell and scream, I am wrong for doing that. He told me to tell him right away if something is bothering me. And he told me that men don't like women who like to complain and whine. 

My husband is a very good communicator, he is firm when he knows he needs to be. 

This man, my husband, knows what kind of woman to date, and he knows what to do with this woman. He really has gotten me in control!

He is not a successful career man, he has no career actually! He just makes sure he makes money every month!


----------



## Conrad

AFEH said:


> Conrad. Yes. It can be hard to accept but rewarding at the same time.
> 
> The confusing thing for me is what is shadow for one is light for another. I guess that’s why different people get on or don’t get on together.
> 
> The shadow is where the conflict is. And people find it hard to accept their own role in conflict because they find it hard, even at times refuse, to accept they have a shadow side to them.
> 
> It’s the shadow where all the tension is. Tension is energy and energy can bring great change.
> 
> Bob


Bob,

My journey indicates that there are 2 methods of "change".

The first (ineffective) way is to change one's attitude about a situation. Simply try harder! Swallow harder! Get over it, etc.

This sort of "change" - if not accompanied by compromise by any one else will never last - as the personal will of the "changer" will likely never overcome the inertia of the situations that brought about the behavior/coping strategy in the first place.

The second (effective) way to change is insight. If you can see a situation "differently" than you did previously, wholesale previously unthinkable transformation is possible.

Yet, this is tricky, as "seeing things a different way" can appear to be caving in.

We are complicated animals.


----------



## AFEH

Conrad said:


> Bob,
> 
> My journey indicates that there are 2 methods of "change".
> 
> The first (ineffective) way is to change one's attitude about a situation. Simply try harder! Swallow harder! Get over it, etc.
> 
> This sort of "change" - if not accompanied by compromise by any one else will never last - as the personal will of the "changer" will likely never overcome the inertia of the situations that brought about the behavior/coping strategy in the first place.
> 
> The second (effective) way to change is insight. If you can see a situation "differently" than you did previously, wholesale previously unthinkable transformation is possible.
> 
> Yet, this is tricky, as "seeing things a different way" can appear to be caving in.
> 
> We are complicated animals.


Conrad I think I know what you mean and I am in agreement with you.

Insight Yes. At times I like to take a dispassionate third person view of what goes on in my life. Bit like a scientific, philosophic “stance”. I try and take myself out of the equation. I don’t think it possible to be truly objective about life but we can get away from being totally subjective.

But when we do that, as MEM says we very quickly see “patterns of behaviour” of ourselves and our wives. We get to truly understand the dynamics between us. That’s what happened to me. I couldn’t change those dynamics because my wife wouldn’t change. It was quite literally a clash of core values. And I couldn’t tolerate the particular dysfunctional pattern we went through every now and then ever again.

I like to stand on the outside and look back in. Anthony de Mello wrote a fantastic book about it called simply “Awareness”. He spent most of his life lecturing on the topic of Awareness. It was one of those rare books that was waving to me from the shelves of many others while I was in Borders at one time. Anthony bridged the divide between eastern and western ways of life. It brought about a big change in my life.

And sure if we can break away from the “I” about us and truly see ourselves and others from different perspectives, then the adoption of a “new pair of eyes” is totally achievable and through those eyes we see things we were blinded to previously.

But at times even all that cannot get us back onto the path of individuation. After all the scientific study and philosophising we have go back to life and live! Sometimes the call to individuation can be so great at times, which I sense is what R2 is going through right now, that we simply and utterly refuse to accept the status quo and compromise who we are at the core of ourselves even more.

In other words we become intolerant of the “abuse” of who we are at our core in order to continue on our path of individuation.

But marriage is like a system. Make a change in one part of the system, for example one of the partners no longer tolerating what they tolerated before and the system will respond in unpredictable and unforeseeable ways.

Bob


----------



## greenpearl

Conrad said:


> Bob,
> 
> My journey indicates that there are 2 methods of "change".
> 
> The first (ineffective) way is to change one's attitude about a situation. Simply try harder! Swallow harder! Get over it, etc.
> 
> This sort of "change" - if not accompanied by compromise by any one else will never last - as the personal will of the "changer" will likely never overcome the inertia of the situations that brought about the behavior/coping strategy in the first place.
> 
> The second (effective) way to change is insight. If you can see a situation "differently" than you did previously, wholesale previously unthinkable transformation is possible.
> 
> Yet, this is tricky, as "seeing things a different way" can appear to be caving in.
> 
> We are complicated animals.


I wish my English is better here. 

I realized that I had a very bad temper, I got it from my father. 

I realized that I was very insecure about life, also got it from a weird childhood. 

I realized that I was a jealous woman. 

I realized that I was unhappy even though my husband was wonderful, my job was fine, my life was fine, everything was fine. 

I had been very shy, I had no confidence, I couldn't talk to people. I went to our religious meetings, I went there when the meeting started, I left there right away when the meeting ended. I sat there alone with my husband and didn't want to talk to anybody. 

The woman you see on forum now is very different from the woman one year ago if you had met me one year ago. 

How could I change and how did I change all that? 

I couldn't blame my husband anymore since he was giving me all a man could. 

I give all the credit to the Bible.

Wisdom form the Bible helped me understand who I was and how a woman I should be. It also helps me understand human nature. It helps me understand people! It helps me understand what kind of world I am living in.


----------



## nice777guy

MEM mentioned to look for patterns - I found keeping a journal to be VERY helpful when my problems were at their worst. It helped me get things off my mind and also helped me get a better idea of what was going on - what the triggers were and how I was reacting.

GP - what I was reading into Bob's posts was a lot of frustration about how R2 was allowing himself to be treated. Same idea as everyone else - at least that was my take on it. His advice wasn't much different - it was just very direct.


----------



## MEM2020

*self inflicted misery*

I have had a mild virus for about a week now - W has had the same thing but a nastier variant of it. Thursday night - she was on her 5th day of it and I made a low key sexual overture which she ignored. 

I was definitely irritated at her that she ignored it. And then way more annoyed at myself for making a light pass at someone who felt sick. I didn't say a word about it. And if I got a "do over" of Thursday night would not have made the overture. 

Friday she took me to bed - and I just felt bad. It was simply a delayed reaction on her part to my play on Thursday. And she wasn't really feeling better yet. 

Last night we didn't connect as she was still feeling bad. This morning I woke up for the first time in a week feeling awesome - went made her a light breakfast and coffee in bed. 

She thanked me profusely and said "wow - I am getting the royal treatment even though we didn't have sex last night". I rolled my eyes and walked out. 

My take on this whole sequence:
- Making an overture Thursday was being needy - bad move. I don't do things like that often - thank God. They feel bad afterwards.
- She could have been nicer about how she handled it - but frankly she isn't responsible for handling me "delicately" when I am being needy.
- I should have diplomatically declined mercy sex on Friday.
- She is going to get hammered for her comment linking lack of sex to lack of nice behavior. I am just working on my script. I think it will be 80 percent humor and 20 percent biting edge. That whole sex/behavior link changed a LOT more than 5 years ago. I am not perfect - but don't deserve that type comment. Before 5 years ago - sadly I think there was a fairly tight link between sexual frequency and how nice I was to her. 






nice777guy said:


> MEM mentioned to look for patterns - I found keeping a journal to be VERY helpful when my problems were at their worst. It helped me get things off my mind and also helped me get a better idea of what was going on - what the triggers were and how I was reacting.
> 
> GP - what I was reading into Bob's posts was a lot of frustration about how R2 was allowing himself to be treated. Same idea as everyone else - at least that was my take on it. His advice wasn't much different - it was just very direct.


----------



## Trenton

*Re: self inflicted misery*



MEM11363 said:


> I have had a mild virus for about a week now - W has had the same thing but a nastier variant of it. Thursday night - she was on her 5th day of it and I made a low key sexual overture which she ignored.
> 
> I was definitely irritated at her that she ignored it. And then way more annoyed at myself for making a light pass at someone who felt sick. I didn't say a word about it. And if I got a "do over" of Thursday night would not have made the overture.
> 
> Friday she took me to bed - and I just felt bad. It was simply a delayed reaction on her part to my play on Thursday. And she wasn't really feeling better yet.
> 
> Last night we didn't connect as she was still feeling bad. This morning I woke up for the first time in a week feeling awesome - went made her a light breakfast and coffee in bed.
> 
> She thanked me profusely and said "wow - I am getting the royal treatment even though we didn't have sex last night". I rolled my eyes and walked out.
> 
> My take on this whole sequence:
> - Making an overture Thursday was being needy - bad move. I don't do things like that often - thank God. They feel bad afterwards.
> - She could have been nicer about how she handled it - but frankly she isn't responsible for handling me "delicately" when I am being needy.
> - I should have diplomatically declined mercy sex on Friday.
> - She is going to get hammered for her comment linking lack of sex to lack of nice behavior. I am just working on my script. I think it will be 80 percent humor and 20 percent biting edge. That whole sex/behavior link changed a LOT more than 5 years ago. I am not perfect - but don't deserve that type comment. Before 5 years ago - sadly I think there was a fairly tight link between sexual frequency and how nice I was to her.


If your wife read this what would she think? Would she be upset that you planned and shared your means of handling her and your relationship? I am just curious. 

My husband admitted to me that he read the forum and felt upset that I shared so much so easily. I talk about TAM often and am honest with him and welcomed him to come here but he explained he has no interest. We talked about me sharing and why I'm doing it and are now stronger for it. He did tell me I had till today to get rid of his picture which I'll be doing in a few secs. haha


----------



## greenpearl

*Re: self inflicted misery*



MEM11363 said:


> I have had a mild virus for about a week now - W has had the same thing but a nastier variant of it. Thursday night - she was on her 5th day of it and I made a low key sexual overture which she ignored.
> 
> I was definitely irritated at her that she ignored it. And then way more annoyed at myself for making a light pass at someone who felt sick. I didn't say a word about it. And if I got a "do over" of Thursday night would not have made the overture.
> 
> Friday she took me to bed - and I just felt bad. It was simply a delayed reaction on her part to my play on Thursday. And she wasn't really feeling better yet.
> 
> Last night we didn't connect as she was still feeling bad. This morning I woke up for the first time in a week feeling awesome - went made her a light breakfast and coffee in bed.
> 
> She thanked me profusely and said "wow - I am getting the royal treatment even though we didn't have sex last night". I rolled my eyes and walked out.
> 
> My take on this whole sequence:
> - Making an overture Thursday was being needy - bad move. I don't do things like that often - thank God. They feel bad afterwards.
> - She could have been nicer about how she handled it - but frankly she isn't responsible for handling me "delicately" when I am being needy.
> - I should have diplomatically declined mercy sex on Friday.
> - She is going to get hammered for her comment linking lack of sex to lack of nice behavior. I am just working on my script. I think it will be 80 percent humor and 20 percent biting edge. That whole sex/behavior link changed a LOT more than 5 years ago. I am not perfect - but don't deserve that type comment. Before 5 years ago - sadly I think there was a fairly tight link between sexual frequency and how nice I was to her.


MEM,

Sorry to know that you had been sick. 

My husband can be like a baby when he is sick. I don't like to see him sick. I would rather me be sick. 

You and your wife show appreciation to each other a lot, little things you do make her feel being loved, just like us. Little things my husband does for me and they make me feel very warm in my heart. 

I think a husband and a wife are like playmates. We play together, we make fun of each other, we also support each other.


----------



## greenpearl

nice777guy said:


> MEM mentioned to look for patterns - I found keeping a journal to be VERY helpful when my problems were at their worst. It helped me get things off my mind and also helped me get a better idea of what was going on - what the triggers were and how I was reacting.
> 
> GP - what I was reading into Bob's posts was a lot of frustration about how R2 was allowing himself to be treated. Same idea as everyone else - at least that was my take on it. His advice wasn't much different - it was just very direct.


NG,

I respect Bob a lot. 

I also don't understand why women are so complicated.

Men are easy to be happy. 

Give them a job, give them food, give them sex, they are all happy happy!

They joke and they talk, they don't waste their time thinking useless things. If they do think, they think of ways to make their situation better. 

But women are different. Women tend to be bothered by small things, women think a lot, think a lot about their past, think a lot about their future. Read an article yesterday, it says that people spend about 50% of their time day dreaming, thinking! The more people day dream, the unhappier they become. That's why a lot of wise men say: let's focus on the present. Don't dwell on the past and don't worry about the future. Women like to think, they put themselves into unhappy situation even though their life is all fine. That's called depression. Why do modern people have depression? they have too much time to think.


Should I put " some" in front of " men " and " women"? Yes, definitely!


----------



## BigBadWolf

*Re: self inflicted misery*



MEM11363 said:


> She thanked me profusely and said "wow - I am getting the royal treatment even though we didn't have sex last night". I rolled my eyes and walked out.


You know you should have said somthing right then! 

My wife, if she makes a crack simliar to that, then I will just roll with it all the way, telling her something like "Careful, you may find out the nicer I am, the more sore you will likely be."  

Get well soon!


----------



## greenpearl

*Re: self inflicted misery*



BigBadWolf said:


> You know you should have said somthing right then!
> 
> My wife, if she makes a crack simliar to that, then I will just roll with it all the way, telling her something like "Careful, you may find out the nicer I am, the more sore you will likely be."
> 
> Get well soon!


You are such a naughty boy?

How come you are so naughty? 

Who taught you this? 

Came naturally?

Your words will make a woman horny like crazy!

My husband does that to me all the time. 

He tells me: I am going to make your puxxx sore later.....................

After sex, he says: I am glad that your puxxx is sore.......................

Just all kinds of these stuff. 

Having a man like this, no wonder I am horny all the time!


----------



## SimplyAmorous

*Re: self inflicted misery*



MEM11363 said:


> - She is going to get hammered for her comment linking lack of sex to lack of nice behavior. I am just working on my script. I think it will be 80 percent humor and 20 percent biting edge. That whole sex/behavior link changed a LOT more than 5 years ago. I am not perfect - but don't deserve that type comment. Before 5 years ago - sadly I think there was a fairly tight link between sexual frequency and how nice I was to her.



Well, we don't know the whole story of coarse-of your past & how she was, but is this comment THAT outrageous? I am sure she meant no harm by it, more even a compliment to you for being such a good husband. 

Maybe I throw words around too easy, not really thinking of their deeper meaning, but I have often said/felt I am "needy" in this area of sex. My husband tells me he likes that ! At one time I was almost in tears feeling like I was some kind of burden (talk about needy!), and he asked me if I was crazy. I guess he is the type of man who loves to feel "Needed". Aren't we all this way - to some extent? I know I love to feel Needed, and if he is Needy, Oh yeah!

Or do these "Good Men" have no use for this type of feeling, don't you love it if your wife is "Needing" you. Does she not like it if you are "Needy" -ever? 

Being needy vs. Mercy Sex. I guess you see this as one in the same. I see them a little different. Mercy sex would entail a spouse just going through the motions. Being Needy is just openly showing your spouse what you are made of , sometimes we are weak. Why mask it. I am what I am before him, weakness & all. 

Is this so bad for men to do ?? I wish my husband did it more often !!


----------



## greenpearl

*Re: self inflicted misery*



SimplyAmorous said:


> Well, we don't know the whole story of coarse-of your past & how she was, but is this comment THAT outrageous? I am sure she meant no harm by it, more even a compliment to you for being such a good husband.
> 
> Maybe I throw words around too easy, not really thinking of their deeper meaning, but I have often said/felt I am "needy" in this area of sex. My husband tells me he likes that ! At one time I was almost in tears feeling like I was some kind of burden (talk about needy!), and he asked me if I was crazy. I guess he is the type of man who loves to feel "Needed". Aren't we all this way - to some extent? I know I love to feel Needed, and if he is Needy, Oh yeah!
> 
> Or do these "Good Men" have no use for this type of feeling, don't you love it if your wife is "Needing" you. Does she not like it if you are "Needy" -ever?
> 
> Being needy vs. Mercy Sex. I guess you see this as one in the same. I see them a little different. Mercy sex would entail a spouse just going through the motions. Being Needy is just openly showing your spouse what you are made of , sometimes we are weak. Why mask it. I am what I am before him, weakness & all.
> 
> Is this so bad for men to do ?? I wish my husband did it more often !!


I don't know what other people think about this. 

But my husband always tells me that men like the feeling that they are being needed, especially by their wives. Men like the feeling that they can protect others. 

My husband knows that I can support myself financially, but he knows very well that I need him emotionally, he knows that I am vulnerable. He knows that he provides me a lot of joy and happiness in my life. He knows I can't live without him. That makes him feel important in my life. 

I know he can live without me since he has always been a loner, but he tells me all the time that I complete his life, I make him a happy man in this world. 

When a husband and a wife both know that they are important in each other's life, they are bonded!

Like you and your husband. MEM and his wife, BBW and his wife. 

We are all bonded!


----------



## Conrad

*Re: self inflicted misery*



SimplyAmorous said:


> Well, we don't know the whole story of coarse-of your past & how she was, but is this comment THAT outrageous? I am sure she meant no harm by it, more even a compliment to you for being such a good husband.
> 
> Maybe I throw words around too easy, not really thinking of their deeper meaning, but I have often said/felt I am "needy" in this area of sex. My husband tells me he likes that ! At one time I was almost in tears feeling like I was some kind of burden (talk about needy!), and he asked me if I was crazy. I guess he is the type of man who loves to feel "Needed". Aren't we all this way - to some extent? I know I love to feel Needed, and if he is Needy, Oh yeah!
> 
> Or do these "Good Men" have no use for this type of feeling, don't you love it if your wife is "Needing" you. Does she not like it if you are "Needy" -ever?
> 
> Being needy vs. Mercy Sex. I guess you see this as one in the same. I see them a little different. Mercy sex would entail a spouse just going through the motions. Being Needy is just openly showing your spouse what you are made of , sometimes we are weak. Why mask it. I am what I am before him, weakness & all.
> 
> Is this so bad for men to do ?? I wish my husband did it more often !!


This is really an excellent question.

I now mask needy feelings because of the poor results I got when they were on display.

I felt bad about me and I've learned her "internal" response was contempt.

Then again, everyone is different.

And, what it likely involves is how good you are at taking care of yourself. And, of course, this doesn't mean masturbation. It can be part of it, of course, but it's way deeper than that.

If we can isolate the parts of our personality where "neediness" emanates, we can administer to ourselves. At that point, we're so unbelieveably attractive to the opposite sex - because we're self-sufficient, competent, and appear to be self-made.

Our partners wish to share in that, so the virtuous cycle starts to turn.

I hope this is clear.

Wolf is right that if a woman starts to feel like your mother, you're on the wrong track. Mothers take care of needy kids.

We play the role of children at our peril.


----------



## MEM2020

*Re: self inflicted misery*

SA,
I have really made the effort to make sure I am consistent. I don't like that she still believes there is this "very nice guy" the day after sex and not so nice guy when there isn't. 

I guess it all comes down to this. At what point does your partner accept that you have changed/improved? I think 5 years is plenty long. 

BBW,
What a perfect response. I blew it - since that was the ultimate answer "in the moment". Hmmm.

I think instead of hammering her - I am just going to start teasing her when she asks me to do something. I constructed a small set of conversational lego this afternoon that sort of goes like this:

She asks me for something - note she almost never asks anything unreasonable so I almost never respond with anything other than "sure babe - with a smile". Unless of course I am "playing" with her. 

So she asks something and depending on what it is she is going to get one of these responses:
1. "of course - I mean you did put out last night"
2. "I don't know, it has been 3 days now - ask me again the "morning after the next time we connect" "
3. "Hmmm - it has been 4 days now - so all requests must be submitted in writing"






SimplyAmorous said:


> Well, we don't know the whole story of coarse-of your past & how she was, but is this comment THAT outrageous? I am sure she meant no harm by it, more even a compliment to you for being such a good husband.
> 
> Maybe I throw words around too easy, not really thinking of their deeper meaning, but I have often said/felt I am "needy" in this area of sex. My husband tells me he likes that ! At one time I was almost in tears feeling like I was some kind of burden (talk about needy!), and he asked me if I was crazy. I guess he is the type of man who loves to feel "Needed". Aren't we all this way - to some extent? I know I love to feel Needed, and if he is Needy, Oh yeah!
> 
> Or do these "Good Men" have no use for this type of feeling, don't you love it if your wife is "Needing" you. Does she not like it if you are "Needy" -ever?
> 
> Being needy vs. Mercy Sex. I guess you see this as one in the same. I see them a little different. Mercy sex would entail a spouse just going through the motions. Being Needy is just openly showing your spouse what you are made of , sometimes we are weak. Why mask it. I am what I am before him, weakness & all.
> 
> Is this so bad for men to do ?? I wish my husband did it more often !!


----------



## Atholk

*Re: self inflicted misery*



MEM11363 said:


> - She is going to get hammered for her comment linking lack of sex to lack of nice behavior. I am just working on my script. I think it will be 80 percent humor and 20 percent biting edge. That whole sex/behavior link changed a LOT more than 5 years ago. I am not perfect - but don't deserve that type comment. Before 5 years ago - sadly I think there was a fairly tight link between sexual frequency and how nice I was to her.


But she's essentially correct in her observation isn't she? 

You guys have just been sick and when you're sick, tired and cranky everything looks worse than it is. I believe she was actually trying to say how much she liked what you were doing for her, you just took it the wrong way.

Breathe!


----------



## MEM2020

*Re: self inflicted misery*

Atholl,
She definitely was grateful. 

And - you are right she is technically correct - I AM a little warmer/more affectionate the day after sex. That said, my normal behavior when "life" disrupts sex is very good. A disruption to our sex life does not produce irritable, sullen unhelpful behavior. As for the affection stuff - if she wants more she can initiate more on non-sex days. I don't turn hugs into requests to fuvk and she knows that. 

She doesn't say "you treat me like gold - when we have a lot of sex". She says "you treat me like gold". Which is something she says a few times a year and has for quite some time. 

I am over my cold. My wits have returned and I bantered with her tonight while I diplomatically declined her offer to connect. She is still coughing up a storm and if I were feeling that way romance would be the last thing on my mind.....




Atholk said:


> But she's essentially correct in her observation isn't she?
> 
> You guys have just been sick and when you're sick, tired and cranky everything looks worse than it is. I believe she was actually trying to say how much she liked what you were doing for her, you just took it the wrong way.
> 
> Breathe!


----------



## AFEH

From my point of view men do have a vulnerable emotional side to them. We can feel hurt and hurt very deeply. I came to know that when I was depressed a few years back and got to the point I was feeling suicidal. I told my wife twice in the period of a week that I felt suicidal and she ignored me. That is I declared my vulnerability and I was ignored. I think my wife had seen me change from a very independent person to a very needy person and she couldn’t cope with it. From that moment on I told myself I’d never again let my wife see me vulnerable or go to her for emotional support. I didn’t really know what I was doing as I think vulnerability and emotional support at those times so very important in a marriage.

Years later 6 months after we’d separated I tried connecting with my wife to see if we could bring our decades together to some kind of nice closure, we’d parted in a very bad way. At that time she told me just how emotionally she’d been affected by our separation. For six months she couldn’t sleep, missed me in the bed, sent home from work, couldn’t hold a job down. I had absolutely no clue that my wife felt that deeply about me and our marriage, no clue at all. My wife kept all her vulnerability, passion and thoughts and emotions inside of her during our time together, so I just didn’t know.

At the time I told my wife that just yesterday I was in the supermarket having a coffee waiting for some friends to finish their shopping and tears just came out of my eyes when I thought of her. She responded that she’d have loved to see that vulnerable side of me while we were together. I found that quite amazing because at the few times I did show my vulnerable side I was treated quite contemptuously, as though I was less than “a man” or something.

I think men will show their vulnerable side to their wives, but they must be certain they are in safe hands otherwise they wont take the risk of opening themselves up.

It is indeed sometimes a very strange world.

Bob


----------



## greenpearl

Bob,

Your post is very touching. 

Men in the world are taught to hide their emotions, which is not very healthy. Like I often say, when men were kids, they were mom's babies too. They need love, they need support, they need to seek harbor, just in a different way. 

Loving wives are their harbor.

When my husband is sick, he is just like a baby. I know at that time I should give him the kind of love he longs from his mother. At that time, I have to treat him like a baby, I have to hold him in my arms!


----------



## Conrad

Bob,

Perhaps "moderation" in all things is the way to proceed.

Too much of anything generally exhausts a relationship.

My wife and I have been having great late night discussions this week, as she's been searching her soul for answers.

Last night? It just wasn't there.

She went to bed early. I stayed up and watched football with my daughter. She woke pumped up about her insights during quiet time.

Another 2-3am job would have likely exhausted us both.

You get the idea.


----------



## r2d210

*Re: self inflicted misery*



MEM11363 said:


> SA,
> 
> So she asks something and depending on what it is she is going to get one of these responses:
> 1. "of course - I mean you did put out last night"
> 2. "I don't know, it has been 3 days now - ask me again the "morning after the next time we connect" "
> 3. "Hmmm - it has been 4 days now - so all requests must be submitted in writing"


Isn't this type of response making sex a condition of good behavior? I will do it becuase you are good, or I'm good, therefore you need to have sex with me? I thought you weren't supposed to make sex a condition based on behavior?

Example....my wife is on her "montly". It has been a while for us connecting. Based on my actions this weekend, I really noticed a change! She was all over me! She told me she missed me! So, when we went to bed last night and she offered a "HAND JOB". I told her I would love that....and I missed her, and she asked...."so you miss it, not so much me?" I felt immeditately in a corner and so I told her her....yes I missed "it". Normally, I would have politely declined, thinking it was a "hand out" (no pun intended!), however my thinking was, I have needs, but I'm not going to appear needy. So by her offering, and instead of me brushing it off as I'm good, ok, I'll wait, etc., I accepted. I was dissapointed in her behavior. She had no excitement, life or even enthusiasim. It was totally going through the motions....which upset me afterwords. She instantly got up, washed her hands, crawled back in bed and put her back to me. So, I went to sleep. Nothing said this morning about it. 

Update....several times over the weekend, she held her tounge. She was the most respectful I have seen in a long time. It's almost like she is reading this....? I decided after running in the snow and mud that I am going to get a "winter" membership at the gym. I have always wanted to take a spinning class and I will go before work. This will put me out the door by 5:45a.m. three days a week. I know I need to "tell" her and not "ask". I also know an argument will insue....but I'm willing to take it on. I read the first 5 chapters of "no more mr nice guy" this weekend. I have a much better understanding of why I'm the way I am. The book fits me exactly. I was abandened as a child (parents divorced when I was 8 and I was the oldest). I thought it was all my fault. I have sought her approval since day one. I have done everything wrong...and I can see why she has no interest in me sexually and a strong lack of respect. This is going to take some time, but I am very encouraged by the changes I have already seen! The comments and discussion is great!


----------



## Trenton

*Re: self inflicted misery*



r2d210 said:


> Isn't this type of response making sex a condition of good behavior? I will do it becuase you are good, or I'm good, therefore you need to have sex with me? I thought you weren't supposed to make sex a condition based on behavior?
> 
> Example....my wife is on her "montly". It has been a while for us connecting. Based on my actions this weekend, I really noticed a change! She was all over me! She told me she missed me! So, when we went to bed last night and she offered a "HAND JOB". I told her I would love that....and I missed her, and she asked...."so you miss it, not so much me?" I felt immeditately in a corner and so I told her her....yes I missed "it". Normally, I would have politely declined, thinking it was a "hand out" (no pun intended!), however my thinking was, I have needs, but I'm not going to appear needy. So by her offering, and instead of me brushing it off as I'm good, ok, I'll wait, etc., I accepted. I was dissapointed in her behavior. She had no excitement, life or even enthusiasim. It was totally going through the motions....which upset me afterwords. She instantly got up, washed her hands, crawled back in bed and put her back to me. So, I went to sleep. Nothing said this morning about it.
> 
> Update....several times over the weekend, she held her tounge. She was the most respectful I have seen in a long time. It's almost like she is reading this....? I decided after running in the snow and mud that I am going to get a "winter" membership at the gym. I have always wanted to take a spinning class and I will go before work. This will put me out the door by 5:45a.m. three days a week. I know I need to "tell" her and not "ask". I also know an argument will insue....but I'm willing to take it on. I read the first 5 chapters of "no more mr nice guy" this weekend. I have a much better understanding of why I'm the way I am. The book fits me exactly. I was abandened as a child (parents divorced when I was 8 and I was the oldest). I thought it was all my fault. I have sought her approval since day one. I have done everything wrong...and I can see why she has no interest in me sexually and a strong lack of respect. This is going to take some time, but I am very encouraged by the changes I have already seen! The comments and discussion is great!


To your wife's question about the hand job. My husband's response would have been "Both." with a smirk.


----------



## r2d210

Trenton, I wish I would have said that. My guess is...and I'm thick here, she didn't like the answer, hence the "lack of enthusiasm". I just knew 1) I couldn't change her reaction, and 2) my need was met. I know I have to be strong in everything I do. My boundaries need to be firm. I'm very happy how TAM has changed my way of looking at this all. In the past, I definetely believed that if I was good, and I could manipulate enough, she would put out. Looking at it from the outside,.....the problem was me all along!


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Conrad said:


> I now mask needy feelings because of the poor results I got when they were on display.
> 
> I felt bad about me and I've learned her "internal" response was contempt.


 Thank you for sharing with such honesty. All of us would eventually turn away if met with these responses, how could we not. Or it would kill us inside. I understand. 




Conrad said:


> Wolf is right that if a woman starts to feel like your mother, you're on the wrong track. Mothers take care of needy kids.


 I agree with this. As in all things -even our deepest emotions, we should strive for a healthy balance. If it will only lead to us feeling bad about ourselves afterwards, best to curb it for that day. But to never go there with our spouses , I think this is not healthy either. In AFEH's situation (learning after the fact) - What could have been if he had showed this just a little more often, what could it have been if she had responded differently? 

Sometimes we live & learn too late.  





AFEH said:


> At the time I told my wife that just yesterday I was in the supermarket having a coffee waiting for some friends to finish their shopping and tears just came out of my eyes when I thought of her. She responded that she’d have loved to see that vulnerable side of me while we were together. I found that quite amazing because at the few times I did show my vulnerable side I was treated quite contemptuously, as though I was less than “a man” or something.
> 
> I think men will show their vulnerable side to their wives, but they must be certain they are in safe hands otherwise they wont take the risk of opening themselves up.


 
SO TRUE. Unfortunetly I think all of us women have done this at one time or another. Myself included. My husband rarely showed his "need"- and of coarse, just like you all, in response to how I carelessly handled him in the past. 

My husband is very sensitive, He has ALWAYS been bothered that I didn’t seem to have much of a sex drive, he took this very very personal & internal (but in saying this, I never did this Mercy Sex thing, when he got me going, I was HOT & very very into him- I just didn’t think about it but once a week). He NEVER faught with me about it, just accepted I was like a Nun. WE laugh about this today -how can we not, I do not know that woman of yesterday!! 

I can recall only once him asking me for a hand job. ONCE in 19 yrs of marriage!! I did it gladly. I SHOULD have been clued in then to how he "needed" more sex but I was oblivious - somewhere off in the clouds, I don't know. I can't understand it myself. When we started REALLY communicating about sex (we never did this before at all - what a pathetic mistake to make in marriage) , I learned of his silent suffering . Him seeing ME all of a sudden IN NEED allowed him to OPEN up to me. I am sure seeing the tables turn was some amusing for him. 

I guess the worst thing I ever did, according to him >>> about 6 yrs ago, he tried to tell me He wanted to "hold me more at night "-never mentioning sex - I took this as wanting to hold me "while I slept" (I can be very dense at times) and I am very fidgity, moving around alot, even a leg on top of me would prevent me from sleeping. I just didn't get it. In his mind the holding meant it would lead to love making. In my mind, he wanted to hold me while I slept. He even remembers me complaining I cant sleep like that, but he didn’t try to make it more clear, more about Love making/ closeness/ bonding, or that he hurt. ..... Then I did the stupidest thing imaginable , he over heard me talking to one of my friends on the phone about this, and this CRUSHED him (this was HIS burning). Pretty much the only time he EVER opened up to me about wanting more sex and I didn’t get it, I took It very very casually. :banghead::banghead::banghead: 

When he shared this with me 2 yrs ago, I was shocked ! He hid it sooo well. Looking back, after this stupid thing I dismissed, there was a definete decline in his coming to me for sex. He was not someone who would beg. And I still didn't wake up until a few years later. 

Shame shame on us women sometimes. I have more than made up for all of this now. It is no wonder he loves MY Neediness. He felt all these years I did not need him at all ! But I did, I never wanted anyone else, I even was grouchy myself back then, I probably needed more SEX too, sometimes we don't know what we truly need for happiness. I was working back then, life was more stressful, but none of these excuses are good enough. In our case, the communication was lacking from his end, and I was terribly lacking in understanding of what men NEED from their wives, I assumed since I only needed it once a week, he must feel the same. :banghead::banghead::banghead:

Thank you all for sharing. It helps me better understand the mindset of my husband -back then.


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove

Why does your wife feel the need to talk down to you and treat you like a child?

I have not read the entire post (sorry, too long and I'm at work), do you have a good marriage? Why is she so rude and condensending to you?

That sounds like the main root of the problems. She believes she can treat/talk to you in this manner and there are no consequences. 

I'm sure some strong feedback from you (or some really hard consequences) might change her tune.


----------



## AFEH

r2d210, something I came to recognise with my wife was how much control of my emotions I’d given to her. I had kind of an awakening and just saw it. It was like she had a remote control in her hands and could push different buttons and get different responses from me. I didn’t have a clue before. I came to realise that my wife knew exactly what she was doing, it wasn’t something that happened by accident.

“"So you miss it, not so much me?" I’m of the mind to think that was so designed to get a reaction from you, the reaction she got. She could have just enjoyed what she was doing and enjoyed your response. But she didn’t. She’ll know you a lot better than you will ever think. She wanted you to feel the way you did.

In long term marriages we haven’t a clue really just how deeply our emotions and intellect are entwined with our partners. We just haven’t got a clue because it is “a way of life”. If we are not careful we truly do become institutionalised and lose who we are.

As you keep on with your healthy boundaries and differentiate yourself more and more as an individual you will come to recognise this as time goes by. You will begin to see yourself and your wife much clearer than ever before.

Bob


----------



## greenpearl

*Re: self inflicted misery*



r2d210 said:


> Isn't this type of response making sex a condition of good behavior? I will do it becuase you are good, or I'm good, therefore you need to have sex with me? I thought you weren't supposed to make sex a condition based on behavior?
> 
> Example....my wife is on her "montly". It has been a while for us connecting. Based on my actions this weekend, I really noticed a change! She was all over me! She told me she missed me! So, when we went to bed last night and she offered a "HAND JOB". I told her I would love that....and I missed her, and she asked...."so you miss it, not so much me?" I felt immeditately in a corner and so I told her her....yes I missed "it". Normally, I would have politely declined, thinking it was a "hand out" (no pun intended!), however my thinking was, I have needs, but I'm not going to appear needy. So by her offering, and instead of me brushing it off as I'm good, ok, I'll wait, etc., I accepted. I was dissapointed in her behavior. She had no excitement, life or even enthusiasim. It was totally going through the motions....which upset me afterwords. She instantly got up, washed her hands, crawled back in bed and put her back to me. So, I went to sleep. Nothing said this morning about it.
> 
> Update....several times over the weekend, she held her tounge. She was the most respectful I have seen in a long time. It's almost like she is reading this....? I decided after running in the snow and mud that I am going to get a "winter" membership at the gym. I have always wanted to take a spinning class and I will go before work. This will put me out the door by 5:45a.m. three days a week. I know I need to "tell" her and not "ask". I also know an argument will insue....but I'm willing to take it on. I read the first 5 chapters of "no more mr nice guy" this weekend. I have a much better understanding of why I'm the way I am. The book fits me exactly. I was abandened as a child (parents divorced when I was 8 and I was the oldest). I thought it was all my fault. I have sought her approval since day one. I have done everything wrong...and I can see why she has no interest in me sexually and a strong lack of respect. This is going to take some time, but I am very encouraged by the changes I have already seen! The comments and discussion is great!


R2,

I am happy for you!

In order for everything to turn to the good circle, when your wife is being nice to you, please take it nicely, please don't read too much into it. Mercy sex, willing sex, whatever, as long as it is sex, and she offered, you should take it happily. I don't understand the concept of mercy sex, I just know, when I want sex, I want sex. When she wants to have sex, just fxxx her hard, fxxx her like crazy, and she will remember that, next time, she's be more initiative. Don't forget that, she wants sex too. MAN, I can't write too much about sex, I have been in a high sex drive for a long time, to a point it is distracting me. 

As a couple, we can't be proud, we can't be meek, how to find the balance, it needs our wisdom!


----------



## r2d210

MarriedWifeInLove.....long story, but the short of it is....I've been a doormat for 20 years! This is what happens when your a doormat for 20 years!

Bob, thanks for that. Your absolutely correct on the emotional buttons. Wheither she is doing it on purpose or not, I don't know. But, I have learned that because sex for me has been the highest form of acceptence, I will do anything to ensure she is happy, to try to manipulate the next sexual encounter. If she is not happy, that means "no sex for you!" (Seinfield....only no soup for you!) So, I listen to her words, and read into them. If I walk in the door and she is unhappy, I'm bummed....that means no sex! Not ANY MORE!!!!! I'm free....and I'm so excited. I don't want her affirmation....and I don't need her approval! The concept of that is amazing to me. It don't mean I love her any less....but she cannot control me with words or emotions. I won't have it! GP, I can only wish....!


----------



## greenpearl

Bob, 

Yesterday you mentioned that men are also vulnerable, and there is no way to show, or when you did show, your wife didn't take it the way you would have expected. 

I think this is one spot a lot of women don't understand men either. 

I had been a housewife and now I am a working woman. 

When I was a housewife, I really didn't understand anything about pressure and stress at work, I had no clue. I couldn't understand anything what my EX was going through. He told me he was not happy at work, I got nervous and insecure. I didn't know how to comfort him. I didn't have any ability to give him support. The only thing I could do was worry and it made our life worse. 

I have been working for eight years, now I have been through the dark side of working culture. People fight for power, people fight for position. In a school, the fighting is not fierce, but it is still going on. The good thing about being a teacher, I can ignore my co-workers and just focus on my students, there isn't much team work. But knowing that others are fighting secretly with you, the feeling is not good. 

The most important thing here is, when my husband talks to me about pressure at work, I understand it. When he talks about insecurity, I can understand it. When he needs support, I can give it to him. 

That's why now I support women go to work. When we are working, we understand men's pressure better. When we are working, we can provide a sense of security for our family, too. 

I don't know if your wife was working or not. It is just my opinion.


----------



## greenpearl

r2d210 said:


> MarriedWifeInLove.....long story, but the short of it is....I've been a doormat for 20 years! This is what happens when your a doormat for 20 years!
> 
> Bob, thanks for that. Your absolutely correct on the emotional buttons. Wheither she is doing it on purpose or not, I don't know. But, I have learned that because sex for me has been the highest form of acceptence, I will do anything to ensure she is happy, to try to manipulate the next sexual encounter. If she is not happy, that means "no sex for you!" (Seinfield....only no soup for you!) So, I listen to her words, and read into them. If I walk in the door and she is unhappy, I'm bummed....that means no sex! Not ANY MORE!!!!! I'm free....and I'm so excited. I don't want her affirmation....and I don't need her approval! The concept of that is amazing to me. It don't mean I love her any less....but she cannot control me with words or emotions. I won't have it! GP, I can only wish....!


R2, 

You just mentioned the most important thing, you are free from her control now, hooray!!!!!!!! That's going to give you a lot of confidence, and in the end, it is going to make you a man she craves. But still don't forget to show her appreciation, though. That can really make a woman feel nice, at least for me, when I do something nice, and my husband acknowledges it and gives me good comments, I am always happy, and I will make sure I do a better job next time. That's me, everybody is different.


----------



## AFEH

r2d210 said:


> MarriedWifeInLove.....long story, but the short of it is....I've been a doormat for 20 years! This is what happens when your a doormat for 20 years!
> 
> Bob, thanks for that. Your absolutely correct on the emotional buttons. Wheither she is doing it on purpose or not, I don't know. But, I have learned that because sex for me has been the highest form of acceptence, I will do anything to ensure she is happy, to try to manipulate the next sexual encounter. If she is not happy, that means "no sex for you!" (Seinfield....only no soup for you!) So, I listen to her words, and read into them. If I walk in the door and she is unhappy, I'm bummed....that means no sex! Not ANY MORE!!!!! I'm free....and I'm so excited. I don't want her affirmation....and I don't need her approval! The concept of that is amazing to me. It don't mean I love her any less....but she cannot control me with words or emotions. I won't have it! GP, I can only wish....!


That’s a pleasure R2 I was wondering if I should post or not. As you said previously most of our behaviour has its routes in our childhood. At some time in our life we get to chose who we want to be although I think it more or less impossible to break away completely from our childhood. I think the best way of choosing who we want to be is via our personal boundaries.

I don’t want to patronise but you sound like you are doing very well. You may well get setbacks but that’s all part of the process. You never know you may even witness your wife breaking away from her childhood as well.

Bob


----------



## Trenton

I'm beginning to see the start of a new book..._Marriage Success with the Support of TAM_


----------



## Conrad

Simply Amorous,

I firmly believe that if all the attractive young women who get dogged for sex by their spouses could peer into a crystal ball and look ahead 20 years, they'd behave quite a bit differently.

By the time you "need him", you'll have trained him not to "need you".

Good luck with that.


----------



## MEM2020

R2,
I have no idea if your W's question about a HJ was a "trick" question. What I do know is that I use terminology that is honest/accurate and seems to work well for W as she has adopted it over time. I say "I want to connect with you tonight". I always use the word connect. Because that IS what I want. Orgasms are quick and easy. In fact - because connecting IS what I want I almost always turn down an offer of a "quickie" in the moment and wait until that night or the next night when we will have at least an hour. 

But this next bit is completely non-obvious so I thank my lucky stars I married someone who was willing to teach me the rules of engagement. 

She likes the idea that we are "connecting" and we are. But she is NOT a fan of slow gentle sex most nights. So the connection is best for HER when I am alpha/in control and sometimes even rough with her. I am just as happy with gentle as with rough. Just as comfortable being beta as alpha. So the bedroom alpha stuff is something I learned to get good at for her. 

And the funny/odd thing about all this is she NEEDS a certain amount of "alpha" behavior from me in and out of bed. When I am clever about it I give her the right amount proactively. When I am not doing that she fitness tests me. I do not respond to fitness tests in order to get laid. I respond to them because I have zero tolerance for boundary violations. This sometimes means 3-4 days of carefully polite, but chilly interaction until someone says uncle. I have never once apologized in our marriage because I wanted to resume having sex. I always apologize if I believe I am at least 50 percent at fault. 

>>>>>>>>>>>>
Apologizing when you are the injured party, in an effort to get laid is an oxymoronic act of self castration. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>




r2d210 said:


> MarriedWifeInLove.....long story, but the short of it is....I've been a doormat for 20 years! This is what happens when your a doormat for 20 years!
> 
> Bob, thanks for that. Your absolutely correct on the emotional buttons. Wheither she is doing it on purpose or not, I don't know. But, I have learned that because sex for me has been the highest form of acceptence, I will do anything to ensure she is happy, to try to manipulate the next sexual encounter. If she is not happy, that means "no sex for you!" (Seinfield....only no soup for you!) So, I listen to her words, and read into them. If I walk in the door and she is unhappy, I'm bummed....that means no sex! Not ANY MORE!!!!! I'm free....and I'm so excited. I don't want her affirmation....and I don't need her approval! The concept of that is amazing to me. It don't mean I love her any less....but she cannot control me with words or emotions. I won't have it! GP, I can only wish....!


----------



## Trenton

M,
You never answered. What would your wife think if she read all you posts?


----------



## AFEH

Conrad said:


> Simply Amorous,
> 
> I firmly believe that if all the attractive young women who get dogged for sex by their spouses could peer into a crystal ball and look ahead 20 years, they'd behave quite a bit differently.
> 
> By the time you "need him", you'll have trained him not to "need you".
> 
> Good luck with that.


That's pretty deep Conrad. How many times have you lived lol.

Bob


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Conrad said:


> Simply Amorous,
> 
> I firmly believe that if all the attractive young women who get dogged for sex by their spouses could peer into a crystal ball and look ahead 20 years, they'd behave quite a bit differently.
> 
> By the time you "need him", you'll have trained him not to "need you".
> 
> Good luck with that.


 Yeah, I agree with this! :iagree: I was very blessed /lucky. But I will never take all the blame for our lagging sex life by any means--if he had known & lived Big Bad Wolf's advice (especially all that jealous pursuing stuff he talks about) or MEM's (outrightly telling me he NEEDED more) & many on this forum & used this behavior on me - or even was a little like myself -- he would have gotten ALOT more -this I have no doubt. He was too self-less, too quiet about his needs / desires. I even masterbated while he slept sometimes cause I didn't want to wake him up, feeling he might prefer his sleep! Half the time I woke him up - when I told him this years later about secretly masterbating ---He was shocked !! If only, when I did wake him up, he would have been MORE VOCAL in saying "OH baby, you can do this any time, wake me up more!!" -- (He felt this way but failed to express it to me), had I had such a response, I would have NEVER went solo again. Heck, I questioned HIS sex drive !!! 

Sadly, alot of missed opportunities / unspoken desires, we are both guilty. We've come a long way, we always openly talk about sex NOW. It is all gooooooood. 

I have alot to teach my daughter someday about men, about pleasing their husbands. I doubt she will marry someone as laid back as her dad though, very very few like him out there.


----------



## Conrad

SimplyAmorous said:


> Yeah, I agree with this! :iagree: I was very blessed /lucky. But I will never take all the blame for our lagging sex life by any means--if he had known & lived Big Bad Wolf's advice (especially all that jealous pursuing stuff he talks about) or MEM's (outrightly telling me he NEEDED more) & many on this forum & used this behavior on me - or even was a little like myself -- he would have gotten ALOT more -this I have no doubt. He was too self-less, too quiet about his needs / desires. I even masterbated while he slept sometimes cause I didn't want to wake him up, feeling he might prefer his sleep! Half the time I woke him up - when I told him this years later about secretly masterbating ---He was shocked !! If only, when I did wake him up, he would have been MORE VOCAL in saying "OH baby, you can do this any time, wake me up more!!" -- (He felt this way but failed to express it to me), had I had such a response, I would have NEVER went solo again. Heck, I questioned HIS sex drive !!!
> 
> Sadly, alot of missed opportunities / unspoken desires, we are both guilty. We've come a long way, we always openly talk about sex NOW. It is all gooooooood.
> 
> I have alot to teach my daughter someday about men, about pleasing their husbands. I doubt she will marry someone as laid back as her dad though, very very few like him out there.


My ex rationalized in much this same way. She figured I was just a "nice guy".

She was wrong also.

I wonder if she'd woken me up if we'd still be together.

Apparently, I needed my second wife to wake me up.

And, she has done so - in more ways than one.


----------



## Conrad

Trenton said:


> M,
> You never answered. What would your wife think if she read all you posts?


I think she'd likely read until she got to the one where he says he "won the marriage lottery" and then invite him to bed.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Conrad said:


> My ex rationalized in much this same way. She figured I was just a "nice guy".
> 
> She was wrong also.
> 
> I wonder if she'd woken me up if we'd still be together.
> 
> Apparently, I needed my second wife to wake me up.
> 
> And, she has done so - in more ways than one.


Conrad, you are outrightly dumping on me ! That is alright, I can take it. I know we often speak out of our own experiences. 

I seriously doubt you are anything like my husband, I am sure you expressed much more in your marriage and that is a good beautiful thing!! I am sorry she didn't respond more. I seriously doubt I am anything like your X. 

Just reading your posts chokes me up, that is how much I care about my husband. If he left me over these things, well , how pathetically sad that would be. If he was a poster on here (he has no care for forums & writing) he would surely express that he , too, is guilty of not communicating better. Someone on here told me my husband is probably a "Good" guy, not necessarily a "Nice" guy. 

I am very sorry for your experience. Sounds like you have moved on very well. A women to revive your drive. Good for you!! 

I am one who does not always advocate for spouses to stay- no matter what -because of vows, etc. If you have tried it all to no avial, the communication & forgivness has been put out there & it is still MISERABLE, and one is suffering - I think many marriages should SPLIT, go & find a more compatible lover, by all means. 

You've done just that ! :smthumbup:


----------



## Trenton

Conrad said:


> I think she'd likely read until she got to the one where he says he "won the marriage lottery" and then invite him to bed.


I said some honest and great things about my husband but he still feels critical of the process overall.


----------



## MEM2020

T,
Sorry - travelling this week - I didn't mean to ignore you.

I have said all this stuff to her at one time or another. And she has read a sample of my posts. She agrees with my take on things. 




Trenton said:


> M,
> You never answered. What would your wife think if she read all you posts?


----------



## Trenton

MEM11363 said:


> T,
> Sorry - travelling this week - I didn't mean to ignore you.
> 
> I have said all this stuff to her at one time or another. And she has read a sample of my posts. She agrees with my take on things.


No worries. I was just curious as my husband agrees but wishes I didn't share so darn much. ha


----------



## nice777guy

Trenton said:


> No worries. I was just curious as my husband agrees but wishes I didn't share so darn much. ha


Yeah, its just a nice quiet little internet site that EVERYONE IN THE WORLD has access to. No worries...

And its not like Trenton is your real name, or that's actually a real picture of yourself...


----------



## Trenton

nice777guy said:


> Yeah, its just a nice quiet little internet site that EVERYONE IN THE WORLD has access to. No worries...
> 
> And its not like Trenton is your real name, or that's actually a real picture of yourself...


OK my name is indeed not Trenton, it's Michele but that is me and this is me and why would I be afraid to share my life with everyone in the world? Where's the fear factor? You think there's not sicko's in your neighborhood, that phone books haven't historically made everyone searchable? The internet is an amazing communication tool. I don't get the fear.

My husband respects that this is me. He's not at all like this which I accept too. It seems to me that so many are bluntly honest with strangers but I do wonder whether they are truly honest with the person that is supposed to be closest to them.


----------



## nice777guy

Trenton said:


> OK my name is indeed not Trenton, it's Michele but that is me and this is me and why would I be afraid to share my life with everyone in the world? Where's the fear factor? You think there's not sicko's in your neighborhood, that phone books haven't historically made everyone searchable? The internet is an amazing communication tool. I don't get the fear.
> 
> My husband respects that this is me. He's not at all like this which I accept too. It seems to me that so many are bluntly honest with strangers but I do wonder whether they are truly honest with the person that is supposed to be closest to them.


I was mostly kidding...mostly...

I've bared my soul here in a way that I would never do with "real" people. And in return I've gained some tremendous insight from others who have done the same. I've gotten much better advice from people on this board than I ever have from a therapist.


----------



## AFEH

I was thinking the same thing earlier on. I think there’s a lot of in-depth disclosure here and with many more people from all different walks of life than likely to be found perhaps than in any other medium. I think the main reason for that here is that the moderators make it a truly safe place to post. It’s that boundary thing and an excellent example of what boundaries are all about.

Mind you I was thinking on asking that every member be mandated to fill in their sex on their profile. Then when say a female tries to enter the men’s clubhouse they have to wait until they’re voted either in or out. If they’re voted in and they divert too much from a topic they can be voted out again.

But maybe that’s not necessary. I’ve just about got used to wondering what the heck is going on in a thread with all the diversions and all. Maybe I’m getting “modern”.

I am joking of course

Bob


----------



## Trenton

Bob, Oh my goodness! Are you going to vote me off the island? I would understand but you'd miss out on my mean game of golf.

NG, I agree with you and it's true that it has its benefits but you have to admit many would benefit from getting this raw with their significant other.


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> many would benefit from getting this raw with their significant other.


Or not ...

Oh and as for access to the men's clubhouse? "Show skin, and you're in ..."

It's really the only litmus test that makes sense for guys.


----------



## Conrad

SimplyAmorous said:


> Conrad, you are outrightly dumping on me ! That is alright, I can take it. I know we often speak out of our own experiences.
> 
> I seriously doubt you are anything like my husband, I am sure you expressed much more in your marriage and that is a good beautiful thing!! I am sorry she didn't respond more. I seriously doubt I am anything like your X.
> 
> Just reading your posts chokes me up, that is how much I care about my husband. If he left me over these things, well , how pathetically sad that would be. If he was a poster on here (he has no care for forums & writing) he would surely express that he , too, is guilty of not communicating better. Someone on here told me my husband is probably a "Good" guy, not necessarily a "Nice" guy.
> 
> I am very sorry for your experience. Sounds like you have moved on very well. A women to revive your drive. Good for you!!
> 
> I am one who does not always advocate for spouses to stay- no matter what -because of vows, etc. If you have tried it all to no avial, the communication & forgivness has been put out there & it is still MISERABLE, and one is suffering - I think many marriages should SPLIT, go & find a more compatible lover, by all means.
> 
> You've done just that ! :smthumbup:


Simply Amorous,

We marry for so many reasons. Some of which we are aware. Some of which swim through our subconscious.

I could bore you to tears with stories of losing my mother at 18 and a desperate (vain) search to find that sort of support from another human being. The more alienated and distant my ex and I became, the more the rubber band stretched.

When my daughter took a butcher knife to her abdomen on my 44th birthday? That was enough for me. I couldn't imagine the childrens connection with their mother was just as bad as mine.

I was determined to "make things right" for both my daughter and myself. Of course, I doubled down on all the dysfunction I'd brought to the relationship in the first place. And, in my pursuit of "happiness", I became the "nice guy" of which this forum testifies. Suffice it to say, that's in the past.

But, back to our subject.

If I had MORE conflict in my first marriage. If I had the spark between my ex and myself... would I have pulled the plug?

I don't think so.

Because, the spark my wife and I share (in this marriage) has us masturbating (separately) to the image - and touch - of the other one. My wife and I have each confessed this. It's damned near impossible to get the job done thinking of anyone else - so I've stopped trying.

Would I have faced myself had I never encountered her? I am one stubborn teutonic warrior. I can assure you, I would not have EVER figured out my issues without the inferno she's placed in my soul.

How could I possibly ever quit? She sometimes says she thinks I'm a masochist. No, this is how true passion and commitment fuel the human soul.

If you have that, I don't see any possible way to quit.


----------



## AFEH

Who's thread is this anyway??? Just got it from the title.

I wonder how R2s doing. I wonder how long it will take him to find his way to the end or if he'll think he's got lost and go back to the top and start over.

Just kidding R2 hope you're doing ok R2.


----------



## AFEH

Passion and commitment wonderful things. Really sorry to hear about your daughter Conrad deep stuff that for you all. A real wakeup call.

Bob


----------



## Conrad

AFEH said:


> Passion and commitment wonderful things. Really sorry to hear about your daughter Conrad deep stuff that for you all. A real wakeup call.
> 
> Bob


Bob,

She just moved back in with my wife and I last week.

Seems we're finally in the right groove together.

I read your stuff about meditation and prayer.

I believe it works.

We actually reached a point where I had to call bull**** on her and leave her rot in jail for an extra six long weeks.

Toughest call I've ever had to make.

But, she says it helped her turn her life around.


----------



## MEM2020

Conrad,
What a fantastic post. Is your daughter now in a better place mentally? 

Do you and your ex have an ok relationship now? Do you think she recognizes how different you are today? 

My daughter used a bottle of pills instead of a knife. Fortunately her friends and a skilled ER team prevented her from coming to harm. 




Conrad said:


> Simply Amorous,
> 
> We marry for so many reasons. Some of which we are aware. Some of which swim through our subconscious.
> 
> I could bore you to tears with stories of losing my mother at 18 and a desperate (vain) search to find that sort of support from another human being. The more alienated and distant my ex and I became, the more the rubber band stretched.
> 
> When my daughter took a butcher knife to her abdomen on my 44th birthday? That was enough for me. I couldn't imagine the childrens connection with their mother was just as bad as mine.
> 
> I was determined to "make things right" for both my daughter and myself. Of course, I doubled down on all the dysfunction I'd brought to the relationship in the first place. And, in my pursuit of "happiness", I became the "nice guy" of which this forum testifies. Suffice it to say, that's in the past.
> 
> But, back to our subject.
> 
> If I had MORE conflict in my first marriage. If I had the spark between my ex and myself... would I have pulled the plug?
> 
> I don't think so.
> 
> Because, the spark my wife and I share (in this marriage) has us masturbating (separately) to the image - and touch - of the other one. My wife and I have each confessed this. It's damned near impossible to get the job done thinking of anyone else - so I've stopped trying.
> 
> Would I have faced myself had I never encountered her? I am one stubborn teutonic warrior. I can assure you, I would not have EVER figured out my issues without the inferno she's placed in my soul.
> 
> How could I possibly ever quit? She sometimes says she thinks I'm a masochist. No, this is how true passion and commitment fuel the human soul.
> 
> If you have that, I don't see any possible way to quit.


----------



## MEM2020

Conrad,
The best thing my father ever did for me was threaten to kick me out of the house when I was 19. 

We did bail our daughter out of jail as well - next time I told her she could sit in there for a while to get a better understanding of what her future held.....






Conrad said:


> Bob,
> 
> She just moved back in with my wife and I last week.
> 
> Seems we're finally in the right groove together.
> 
> I read your stuff about meditation and prayer.
> 
> I believe it works.
> 
> We actually reached a point where I had to call bull**** on her and leave her rot in jail for an extra six long weeks.
> 
> Toughest call I've ever had to make.
> 
> But, she says it helped her turn her life around.


----------



## AFEH

I don’t know your story Conrad so I just don’t know who was in jail. I’m truly glad things are back on track. Doesn’t life throw us wobblies at times and they are the most personally deep things in the world. Meditation I found brought a sense of stillness while prayer let me know what was truly important in my life.




Now I do wonder if when R2 comes back he’s going to tell us to all b* off out of his thread unless we stay on topic. That would be really good to see.


----------



## Conrad

MEM11363 said:


> Conrad,
> What a fantastic post. Is your daughter now in a better place mentally?
> 
> Do you and your ex have an ok relationship now? Do you think she recognizes how different you are today?
> 
> My daughter used a bottle of pills instead of a knife. Fortunately her friends and a skilled ER team prevented her from coming to harm.


MEM,

My daughter is upstairs doing the dishes with my wife. On days when I don't have a work assignment, we hang out like the Lone Ranger and Tonto.

She's paying down her debts - avoiding bankruptcy - and setting her course for a productive life. Many hurdles remain, but she's willing to work.

As for my ex? She's still coddling my son and he will likely live with her forever. Instead of getting him to man up and realize how much the lifestyle he's chosen actually costs, she's decided to come back at me for more money. Says I was hiding over 75k in the divorce. (Complete BS)

I thought giving her half a million in assets would be enough to hold her for awhile. She never had the gift of thrift.

I actually feel guilt about the marriage now that I'm connected to myself. I had no business marrying her in the first place. But, she's now set for a real bruising in court. My daughter and her stepmother will be leading the cheers.

I'm glad to hear your Little Sweetheart didn't do herself any permanent damage either. That's reserved for their parents


----------



## Trenton

Conrad, have a great respect for you in sharing your story. I'm glad to hear your daughter was able to get her stuff together.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

Conrad said:


> As soon as you receive criticism while doing each of those tasks, stiffen, walk away, and never do them again until the matter gets resolved.
> 
> When she starts nagging as to why you "aren't helping", remain FULLY in control of your emotions and flatly say, "I have much to think about."


Conrad's approach is just game playing. I say stand up for yourself.

Say to her, "I'm doing the dishes and I'm going to clean up the spill. If you want me to keep doing these things, you'll drop the negative comments."


----------



## Deejo

WTF is it with everyone saying 'it's game playing?'

Your Goddamn right it's game playing and she started the game by deciding to call out her man, and actively demean him ... because she can. They're already playing a game.

Relationships are fundamentally 'a game'. Everybody talks about honesty, open communication and balance. But let's be real here. None of those things create EXCITEMENT. Playing games creates excitement. Games don't have to be negative. 

This is the point. The moment rd decides to 'stand up for himself', he has just accepted the terms of the game - and he's playing it. Further, she is going to test his resolve in standing up for himself. That's how it works. The moment I accepted that is in fact a game, the better I got at getting the results I wanted.


----------



## MEM2020

YES YES YES

If you want a "healthy marriage" get good at playing games when you are fitness tested. 



Deejo said:


> WTF is it with everyone saying 'it's game playing?'
> 
> Your Goddamn right it's game playing and she started the game by deciding to call out her man, and actively demean him ... because she can. They're already playing a game.
> 
> Relationships are fundamentally 'a game'. Everybody talks about honesty, open communication and balance. But let's be real here. None of those things create EXCITEMENT. Playing games creates excitement. Games don't have to be negative.
> 
> This is the point. The moment rd decides to 'stand up for himself', he has just accepted the terms of the game - and he's playing it. Further, she is going to test his resolve in standing up for himself. That's how it works. The moment I accepted that is in fact a game, the better I got at getting the results I wanted.


----------



## r2d210

UPDATE!
Thank you all for the help. I do have so much to tell you! I immediately read "No more Mr. Nice Guy", twice! I read "Hold on to your N.U.T.S" (once) and I now have a "better" understanding of who I am, and how I got to be a "nice guy". With your help on this forum, I understand that I have been going about my marriage with the wrong motive and course of action. For me, sex has been the highest and most important form of validation. Therefore, I have often spent most of my time operating with covert contracts, manipulation and trying to please my wife, so she would see me as a good guy and want to have sex with me. As that has continually failed, my solution has been to try harder. 

As I have made changes to a more healthy me, my wife has actually embraced the changes. I have had a few instances where it has been difficult to know how to deal with her, but with more help from people on this forum, I have successfully marked my territory and I have to admit....I am happier now then I have been since dating my wife...almost 21 years ago! 

Over the last two weeks, I have separated myself, stood up for myself and I have been the head of my household. It feels really good. I had a talk with my wife last night.....over an incident that took place on Sunday. I told her exactly how I felt and I did not try to justify my feelings. She was receptive and understood where I was coming from. She told me she supported me 100% in the changes I have made. 

For a very long time, she has carried the burden of being the Man of our house. I have been too busy trying to figure out how and when I was going to get sex! As she has seen me change, her attention to me has also changed. I can't say she has desired me more, necessarily, but I think she has sensed that I am no longer living in fear of her leaving me.....maybe, more that she is in fear of me leaving her. 

I still don't know exactly how to respond to her all the time, but I have began to set clear boundaries....and she has responded well to me. I view this as a marathon and not so much a sprint. I did speak to her about the dishwasher incident. All I did was say..."the other morning, when you belittled me about the dishwasher...., she interrupted to say....."that was not very nice, was it?" I very calmly and firmly told her I was not her son, and she was never to speak to me that way again. She apologized and that was all that was said. She has started to say things since....but she has stopped short. She has come to me with decision making questions, and I will admit....I have also failed a few fitness tests. I am learning...and I'm so happy to have found you all for so many reasons. This experience was like turning on the light for me! I knew there had to be something wrong....but I was afraid. I took every one of your comments and I created a word document for future reference. I don't know how many times I have re-read what you have said to me. I love my wife, and I will fight for her, but I'm done being ran over. 

I'm sure I will continue to update this thread.....and I welcome any of your comments! Thanks again so much!


----------



## nice777guy

Sounds great!

A few questions - was she aware that you were reading these books and consciously making these types of changes? Did she see the books? Did you discuss what you were doing, or just do it and let her figure it out?


----------



## r2d210

Havn't told her a word. I downloaded the books to my kindle app on my phone. I read them on my own time. She has had to figure this out...and it didn't take long for her to see me changing.


----------



## Conrad

ebp123 said:


> Conrad's approach is just game playing. I say stand up for yourself.
> 
> Say to her, "I'm doing the dishes and I'm going to clean up the spill. If you want me to keep doing these things, you'll drop the negative comments."


And, in the ensuing argument, how do you ever win?


----------



## Conrad

r2d210 said:


> Havn't told her a word. I downloaded the books to my kindle app on my phone. I read them on my own time. She has had to figure this out...and it didn't take long for her to see me changing.


Wolf's advice is to never discuss it.

I firmly agree.

Just do it.


----------



## nice777guy

r2d210 said:


> Havn't told her a word. I downloaded the books to my kindle app on my phone. I read them on my own time. She has had to figure this out...and it didn't take long for her to see me changing.


Thanks.

I find the "Nice Guy" stuff very similar to codependency. When working on codependent behavior, you tell people that you are making certain changes. 

For some reason that I haven't fully thought out in my head, it makes more sense to keep the Nice Guy stuff a bit more guarded like you did.


----------



## AFEH

r2d210 said:


> Havn't told her a word. I downloaded the books to my kindle app on my phone. I read them on my own time. She has had to figure this out...and it didn't take long for her to see me changing.


I’m very pleased for you R2.

They say with those N.U.T.s. …. Not to tell. “Just be”. I believe that’s the very best way.

I think you’ve seen the “sprint” based on the very quick results you’ve gained both within yourself and within your marriage.

But yes it is a marathon, learning and growing as we go through life.

Best to you.

Bob


----------



## r2d210

That is one of the key pieces of advice I wanted to be very careful about. She did make a comment to me...."I hope your not going to be a jerk!" I smiled and walked away...!


----------



## Conrad

nice777guy said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I find the "Nice Guy" stuff very similar to codependency. When working on codependent behavior, you tell people that you are making certain changes.
> 
> For some reason that I haven't fully thought out in my head, it makes more sense to keep the Nice Guy stuff a bit more guarded like you did.


I can tell you why.

Nobody wants the rules to change once they've figured out the game.


----------



## greenpearl

r2d210 said:


> UPDATE!
> Thank you all for the help. I do have so much to tell you! I immediately read "No more Mr. Nice Guy", twice! I read "Hold on to your N.U.T.S" (once) and I now have a "better" understanding of who I am, and how I got to be a "nice guy". With your help on this forum, I understand that I have been going about my marriage with the wrong motive and course of action. For me, sex has been the highest and most important form of validation. Therefore, I have often spent most of my time operating with covert contracts, manipulation and trying to please my wife, so she would see me as a good guy and want to have sex with me. As that has continually failed, my solution has been to try harder.
> 
> As I have made changes to a more healthy me, my wife has actually embraced the changes. I have had a few instances where it has been difficult to know how to deal with her, but with more help from people on this forum, I have successfully marked my territory and I have to admit....I am happier now then I have been since dating my wife...almost 21 years ago!
> 
> Over the last two weeks, I have separated myself, stood up for myself and I have been the head of my household. It feels really good. I had a talk with my wife last night.....over an incident that took place on Sunday. I told her exactly how I felt and I did not try to justify my feelings. She was receptive and understood where I was coming from. She told me she supported me 100% in the changes I have made.
> 
> For a very long time, she has carried the burden of being the Man of our house. I have been too busy trying to figure out how and when I was going to get sex! As she has seen me change, her attention to me has also changed. I can't say she has desired me more, necessarily, but I think she has sensed that I am no longer living in fear of her leaving me.....maybe, more that she is in fear of me leaving her.
> 
> I still don't know exactly how to respond to her all the time, but I have began to set clear boundaries....and she has responded well to me. I view this as a marathon and not so much a sprint. I did speak to her about the dishwasher incident. All I did was say..."the other morning, when you belittled me about the dishwasher...., she interrupted to say....."that was not very nice, was it?" I very calmly and firmly told her I was not her son, and she was never to speak to me that way again. She apologized and that was all that was said. She has started to say things since....but she has stopped short. She has come to me with decision making questions, and I will admit....I have also failed a few fitness tests. I am learning...and I'm so happy to have found you all for so many reasons. This experience was like turning on the light for me! I knew there had to be something wrong....but I was afraid. I took every one of your comments and I created a word document for future reference. I don't know how many times I have re-read what you have said to me. I love my wife, and I will fight for her, but I'm done being ran over.
> 
> I'm sure I will continue to update this thread.....and I welcome any of your comments! Thanks again so much!


R2,

I am happy! I am very happy for you!

Remember, what you are doing is helping her too.

A happy marriage comes by TWO!


----------



## Trenton

r2d210 said:


> UPDATE!
> Thank you all for the help. I do have so much to tell you! I immediately read "No more Mr. Nice Guy", twice! I read "Hold on to your N.U.T.S" (once) and I now have a "better" understanding of who I am, and how I got to be a "nice guy". With your help on this forum, I understand that I have been going about my marriage with the wrong motive and course of action. For me, sex has been the highest and most important form of validation. Therefore, I have often spent most of my time operating with covert contracts, manipulation and trying to please my wife, so she would see me as a good guy and want to have sex with me. As that has continually failed, my solution has been to try harder.
> 
> As I have made changes to a more healthy me, my wife has actually embraced the changes. I have had a few instances where it has been difficult to know how to deal with her, but with more help from people on this forum, I have successfully marked my territory and I have to admit....I am happier now then I have been since dating my wife...almost 21 years ago!
> 
> Over the last two weeks, I have separated myself, stood up for myself and I have been the head of my household. It feels really good. I had a talk with my wife last night.....over an incident that took place on Sunday. I told her exactly how I felt and I did not try to justify my feelings. She was receptive and understood where I was coming from. She told me she supported me 100% in the changes I have made.
> 
> For a very long time, she has carried the burden of being the Man of our house. I have been too busy trying to figure out how and when I was going to get sex! As she has seen me change, her attention to me has also changed. I can't say she has desired me more, necessarily, but I think she has sensed that I am no longer living in fear of her leaving me.....maybe, more that she is in fear of me leaving her.
> 
> I still don't know exactly how to respond to her all the time, but I have began to set clear boundaries....and she has responded well to me. I view this as a marathon and not so much a sprint. I did speak to her about the dishwasher incident. All I did was say..."the other morning, when you belittled me about the dishwasher...., she interrupted to say....."that was not very nice, was it?" I very calmly and firmly told her I was not her son, and she was never to speak to me that way again. She apologized and that was all that was said. She has started to say things since....but she has stopped short. She has come to me with decision making questions, and I will admit....I have also failed a few fitness tests. I am learning...and I'm so happy to have found you all for so many reasons. This experience was like turning on the light for me! I knew there had to be something wrong....but I was afraid. I took every one of your comments and I created a word document for future reference. I don't know how many times I have re-read what you have said to me. I love my wife, and I will fight for her, but I'm done being ran over.
> 
> I'm sure I will continue to update this thread.....and I welcome any of your comments! Thanks again so much!


Wonderful news!


----------



## BigBadWolf

r2d210,

This is heartening to hear!





r2d210 said:


> UPDATE!
> Thank you all for the help. I do have so much to tell you! I immediately read "No more Mr. Nice Guy", twice! I read "Hold on to your N.U.T.S" (once) and I now have a "better" understanding of who I am, and how I got to be a "nice guy". With your help on this forum, I understand that I have been going about my marriage with the wrong motive and course of action. For me, sex has been the highest and most important form of validation. Therefore, I have often spent most of my time operating with covert contracts, manipulation and trying to please my wife, so she would see me as a good guy and want to have sex with me. As that has continually failed, my solution has been to try harder.


Well put. I am hoping many other men who are also caught in this spiral will recognize exactly these same things.

Seeking validation from your woman, following a woman, begging for sex from your woman, the irony all these are exactly the wrong ways to increase sexual attraction and will produce the opposite result, leading to much misery and unhappiness. 



> As I have made changes to a more healthy me, my wife has actually embraced the changes. I have had a few instances where it has been difficult to know how to deal with her, but with more help from people on this forum, I have successfully marked my territory and I have to admit....I am happier now then I have been since dating my wife...almost 21 years ago!


Do not fret over not having all the answers. The important part you already have grasped. As you become more comfortable with this dynamic, your humor and personality, they will come through naturally more and more. 

Much like learning a musical instrument, is this same thing of learning to deal with these fitness tests. At first, maybe they are easy to trip on, like learning scales and modes and intervals and odd times signatures, but over time with practice and experience, they become less and less the mountain and more a molehill.

The time will come, when you can forget even needing to learn of them, as your personality and humor, like a master with his instrument, will express himself without even needing to think about it. 

Fitness tests, they are just like this.



> Over the last two weeks, I have separated myself, stood up for myself and I have been the head of my household. It feels really good.


A man behaving as a man! 

Nothing in the world compares to this the feeling, and what could be more attractive to his woman.



> I had a talk with my wife last night.....over an incident that took place on Sunday. I told her exactly how I felt and I did not try to justify my feelings. She was receptive and understood where I was coming from. She told me she supported me 100% in the changes I have made.


Your woman, she will be your biggest fan and supporter in all this. On this, do not doubt for a second.

Even without the need to talk so much about these changes themself. I would discourage talking too much about the changes , this is to avoid appearing to ask for permission or validation from your woman (and in so failing a fitness test before it is even begun). 

Instead, it is best just behave in your own leadership and see the happy results.  

Action, not words, is the name of this game. 



> For a very long time, she has carried the burden of being the Man of our house. I have been too busy trying to figure out how and when I was going to get sex!


This!

Every man on this forum, if he has even the slightest amount of doubt that his relationship is not a sexual as it could be, should read this many times. 

I imagine many women reading this can also relate. 



> As she has seen me change, her attention to me has also changed. I can't say she has desired me more, necessarily, but I think she has sensed that I am no longer living in fear of her leaving me.....maybe, more that she is in fear of me leaving her.


Regarding desire, have you expressed your desires to her in these same ways as you stand up for yourself? 

Do not miss expressions that require no words, they are the most important. A longer stare at her, head to toe, as a predator stares at prey. A passionate kiss, then going about your business. Grabbing her hair and kissing her. Swatting her behind, especially if she is being sassy. These things, done throughout the day (not just a bedtime), it tells your woman that a dominant man is interested in her. 

In a woman, this WILL light her fire, and a mighty fire it is!



> I still don't know exactly how to respond to her all the time, but I have began to set clear boundaries....and she has responded well to me. I view this as a marathon and not so much a sprint.


Old habits die hard. 

When you put these things in place, your own leadership, passing fitness tests, expressing sexual desire from a position of dominance and never from a position of neediness or begging or negotiation, it will not even seem like a marathon. 

Now you are putting off the old mask of "nice guy", when that mask is gone, dealing with your woman is a joy and a sexual pleasure and intimate and emotional happiness. 

Be creative, you know what is not working, and what is working, so look for creative ways to pass fitness tests. 

The finesse, pass the tests in the ways that puts a smile on your womans face. That is you knowing you are right where you need to be. 

Flip the test back to your woman. Find ways OFTEN to get her to sell herself to you, instead of you having to sell yourself to her. Use much humor in this, but when you get this down, it is most effective. 

Unnerstand when you were dating, your woman knew you had "options". 

Do not lose this edge even in many years of marriage, continue give her the FEELING that you have options, and that you are a prize for her to win. Give her the (sexual) pleasure of winning this prize (you), because she is a beautiful and attractive and sexual woman. 

Do NOT give her the FEELING that you are with her only because you have no options and merely the bird in hand, so to speak.

Also, simply ignore the fitnes test when appropriate. Sometimes, not even acknowledging a fitness test will work wonders.

Finally, ENJOY the fitness tests. They are the sign that your woman is interested in you, and wants to open to you intimately. Only the man that has overcome her tests, has won this great privelige.

And when your woman is open to you intimately, unleashed and emotionally vulnerable, she will move heaven and earth and fight the very gates of hell for such a man, so much will she love and value the good man that has won her, and that she trusts utterly to this level.

All good men, they should never stop until they experience this relationship with their women! 



> I did speak to her about the dishwasher incident. All I did was say..."the other morning, when you belittled me about the dishwasher...., she interrupted to say....."that was not very nice, was it?" I very calmly and firmly told her I was not her son, and she was never to speak to me that way again. She apologized and that was all that was said. She has started to say things since....but she has stopped short. She has come to me with decision making questions, and I will admit....I have also failed a few fitness tests.


Again, do not fret failing.

Fitness tests, flip them around to your woman, use humor to diffuse, or ignore them. Never go to defensive mode or get upset. 




> I am learning...and I'm so happy to have found you all for so many reasons. This experience was like turning on the light for me! I knew there had to be something wrong....but I was afraid. I took every one of your comments and I created a word document for future reference. I don't know how many times I have re-read what you have said to me. I love my wife, and I will fight for her, but I'm done being ran over.
> 
> I'm sure I will continue to update this thread.....and I welcome any of your comments! Thanks again so much!


I appreciate you sharing and updating.

Unnerdtand, trough this web forum, MANY good men will read this and see their own miserable situation and recognize their own unhappy behaviors, and will see by your example and sharing the glimmer of light, perhaps it will give many of them the inspiration to do these same for themselves, for their own happiness and bliss and sexually fullfilling marriages.

r2d210, I wish you well.


----------



## greenpearl

Wolf, 

You are such A WONDERFUL MAN!!!

Knows how to deal with women, and likes to help!!!


----------



## r2d210

BigBadWolf said:


> r2d210,
> 
> Regarding desire, have you expressed your desires to her in these same ways as you stand up for yourself?
> 
> 
> I'm learning to do this. As I gain confidence in myself, I find it is much easier to say what I'm thinking. Thismorning my wife came to see me at work. She was only here a few min. Shortley after she left I recieved a txt msg from her.
> 
> Wife: I Love you!
> Me: Thanks! You looked very nice today!
> Wife: Thanks, I'm wearing my new sweater.
> Me: You wear it well!
> 
> I'm learning to be brief and to the point...and I think she is liking the attention from a healthy stand point.
> 
> Wolf, your amazing at this....and I will continue to grow. I have a teenage son that is a senior in High School. He has a girlfriend. His girlfriend came to thanksgiving dinner yesterday with us. They sat next to each other at dinner. She totally fit tested him.....and it went like this.....
> 
> GF: I can't belive you like yams! That is totally not normal.
> Son: I'm not a normal guy, and I like lots of foods!
> 
> I smiled to myself, because he passed her test with out even knowing it. I want to teach my sons all this information, and I will do that! His GF likes him because he is independent and strong. The same reasons my wife was originally attracted to me. I now need to teach him that he can never give up those things to please a women. She likes him the way he is...and that is obviously where I messed up. Had my father taught me, I would not be typing this right now! Thanks again...this forum is more helpful then words can expess!


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## Conrad

Rd,

If I may, you could spice it up a bit.

"My tongue was dragging on the floor when I saw how that skirt hugged your ass"


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## r2d210

Nice! I will remember that! Thanks Conrad....!


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## greenpearl

R2,

You are really a funny man.

I have big smiles just by reading your posts. 

I am sure in your real life you make people laugh a lot!!!


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