# No affection left - is this reversible?



## WandaJ

Is it possible to feel the need of intimacy to your husband again? We still have sex once in a while, we try to go through our days witout wasting them on fighting, keeping appearance up. Sometimes there is illusion things might be ok, but it's short lived.

He used to be my best friend. Now, twenty years later I do not confide in him at all, I do not feel like touching him affectionaltely. I'm in my forties, and my libido is skyrocketing, but I'd rather satisfy myself most of the time. 
There is a lot of bed blood and issues between us, my resentment has built up in twenty years. I do not think I can come back, but maybe I am wrong. Has someone done it? going from no feelings left at all to rebuilding relationship?


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## Hicks

OF course it can be done.

You should a) not have a bunch of conditions attached to having sex with your husband and b) recognize that you are responsible for many marital problems and stop doing the things you are doing to harm your marriage.


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## WandaJ

thank you hiks, so helpful. NOt


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## 2yearsago

Hey WandaJ, I do think it's possible but like everything else in life, it depends.

Your situation is not unique. Many people get divorced at this phase of their life because they've allowed 20 years of resentments to build up. It can seem impossible to get past them. I know from experience.

What do you want? Do you want to try to rebuild a life with your husband? Do you want to live life on your own and your own terms? Start by having a long look inside yourself. Share how your are feeling with your husband, what have you got to lose?


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## john117

Anything can be done. Two days ago I cycled 30 miles. No bad for a corpse mid 50's guy who got on a bike again on Memorial Day after 40 years.

The question is, should it be done, by whom, and under what conditions. And what is the chance of success.

Truth be told, we humans are lousy in predicting a lot of the above. So think about marriage counseling. If nothing else and both people want to fix it, it could be work. If one of you takes the attitude of "umm, I'm good the other is not", well, duh.

Think of the good times you had together and whether they can be replicated today. Think what you have in common. Think of what the future holds one way or the other. And so on.


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## EleGirl

Yes it can be rebuilt. But you would need to be willing to start working on yourself and changing the dynamics of your marriage. And over time to get him to start making positive changes as well.

There are good books out there: "Divorce Busters", "His Needs, Her Needs" are just two of them that can inspire.

But, if you avoid sex, touch and spending non-sexual intimate time with him it cannot be rebuilt because feeling 'in love' means that your body is producing enough Oxytocin and other feel good chemicals to feel bonded to him and to get back 'in love'.

Oxytocin is often called the amnesia hormone because when there is a lot of it in our system we are 'in love', see each other through rosy glasses and seem to forget all that past that haunts us (like what you harbor right now).

When Oxytocin in low in the body we don't want touch, sex, closeness with a person and we remember every thing about them that has ever bothered us.


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## WandaJ

Thank you guys, these were three really helpful posts. 

What do I want? I think this is the question I am working on now. I am no drama person married to high drama/high ego personality. We always argued a lot, and when we argued, it was a hurricane. When he is in good mood, he is the most wonderful, generous person there is. When he is in bad mood, frustrated, tired, things are not going his way, there would be yelling, name calling, belittling. You never know what small thing will start it. It would not matter if we are in bedroom or in the middle of crowded store, I had to take many humiliating situation like this - I had choice to create jerry springer show and yell to, or look like submissive wife and be queiet. We spend first few years talking about it, crying, apologizing. All I got from this that he stopped calling me wh....e during those arguments, which still leaves a lot of mean and nasty words left. At the beginning we were joking that this is simply the dynamic of our relationship. 
After few years I stopped crying, started withdrawing emotionally, and started throwing back those words at him. and I hate it, because I never before called anyone names, or behaved in such disrespetful manner. It is not me, but you can take it only that many times. 

i will try the books mentioned by Elegirl. Unfortunately, there is another book mentioned often on this forum "In ship's clothing" , about manipulative people, that I have found rather relevant to me.

We have stopped talking about problems long time ago. I've learnt that he assertively tells me whatever bothers him in my behavior and expects changes just out of respect to him. But me asking about small concessions from him put him on huge defense and end up in the big fight. I am sure he now would say that he tries to talk, but I am not interested. I gave that up to. On three different occasions he was told by our three different male friends to start treating me better, before it's too late. so that gives some validation to my feelings. 

things were really bad until big outburst last winter. After that I told him that I want to leave for the weekend all by myself, to think it through, because i do not want to be called names like this ever again. and I did go. I can tell he started trying after this, it was a ice bucket on his head. So the big arguments are maybe out (well, not completely), but there is still a lot of barking, pouting, snaping at me for no reason. 

So, coming back to the questions you guys put - what do I want, and what should be done? I do not know. Deep down, if I am honest with myself, I think this is too little too late. Year ago I was fighting his suggestions for MC, because things were so bad, I knew this wuold only show that I want out, and I wasn't ready. I think now I am past that anger, and more towards accepting the possibility. 
Ellegirl - in regards to sex. we still do it, but it is more about physiological needs, than intimacy. We do not cuddle, we do not do foreplay. In the past I sometimes mentioned something more kinky, something new, but he always laughed at idea. so wo do not talk about sex either. It seems like our communication system is completely broken, if I were so sum it up.

Edit: AFter reading this it seems like everyday is gloom, so I want to clarify, there were many good days, many bad days. and still are. from the outside we look like perfect professional couple, wtih two perfect kids (7 and 9), busy family business (professional office). You just never know when teh storm come. I think I am getting too old to take someone's moods and pouting on everyday basis. I want peaceful house, where I can simply feel relaxed.


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## Nikita2270

Does he want to work on the marriage too?


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## clipclop2

And just to be sure, there is no one else you fancy, right?


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## WandaJ

He does. I think there is more feelings left in him, than in me. I am trying to figure out what I want. 

No, nobody out there. I wouldn't even have time or energy for that .


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## ladymisato

WandaJ said:


> He does. I think there is more feelings left in him, than in me. I am trying to figure out what I want.
> 
> No, nobody out there. I wouldn't even have time or energy for that .


There is a very good chance that he has no clue whatsoever how annoyed you are with him.


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## WorkingOnMe

You do realize that Elle and Hicks said the same thing don't you? She just sweetened it up a little.


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## WandaJ

No, it's not the same. and I do not avoid or withdraw, sex, it's simply not happening as often, as I would like it to, if I had more warm feelings towards him. I actually initiate it more often than him. 

But this is sex, not intimacy, which can be easily confused.


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## meson

In order to feel affection again and sexual desire you will need to fall in love with your husband again. It is possible to do this. I fell in love with my wife again after we were in a similar state 19 years into our marriage. What EleGirl wrote about the chemistry of attraction is spot on. You need to create situations that will feed oxytocin an the good feelings. Thats what i did though at the time i didnt know anout it. I wrote the following for another thread but it applies to your situation as well. 

I recommend that you look inward and decide what you want and need and determine if your husband is capable of providing it. If you think that he can really return to fulfilling your needs, then work on solving one of your ongoing marital issues that you think you can solve. Then put yourself in his place. He will have needs that you are not meeting. Determine what they are and work on one or two irrespective of what he does. This will help to reestablish the environment you had when you were dating. After a while the interaction between you both should be more healthy and trusting. 

At this point you need to start courting your husband again. Arrange activities to do with him that you both will enjoy. You don’t need to be alone; you can have quality time with him and your child as well. One thing that you could do is try to do more of the weekend chores on days when you are apart. If you can do this then you will start to minimize the time for arguments and open up time on the weekend for fun stuff. I work a four day work week and do most of my chores on Wednesday so that the weekend is more open for fun stuff. 

The last ingredient to help you fall in love with your husband again is to develop a shared interest from which the both of you can grow together. 

Here is an example of what I did:
Improved myself – Started an old hobby of mine again which got me into shape and made me happy. If I’m happy it is easier for my wife to be happy around me.

Worked on a problem – Communication; We had toxic communication. I simply started assuming the best with what she said. She learned that I was no longer sniping at her but genuinely interested in what she was saying. 

Quality time – We started to have weekend breakfasts on fine china while we went over the weeks activities. This also addressed a communication issue.

Met more of her needs – She had a need for me to be more involved with the kids than I was. I worked on being a better parent. She was involved in our kids scouting activities and I joined her eventually becoming Scoutmaster for the boys Troop. This was also quality time.

Doing all of that plus more created an environment that was similar to when we dated. As she became comfortable with me again she began to meet more of my needs. We returned to the people we had fallen in love with which caused us to fall in love again. The examples I gave above may not be what works for you but you need to find something in each of those areas that you think can work. Good luck and be patient, it takes a long time to transition from indifference to love.


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## Thound

ladymisato said:


> There is a very good chance that he has no clue whatsoever how annoyed you are with him.


:iagree: I had no clue until I got the dreaded speech.


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## commonsenseisn't

Yes, it is reversible and it can be very sweet. But it takes work. I think you could benefit from marriage counseling. One thing that stands out to me about your story is you both need to learn and apply how to fight fairly with each other. This can be a big help. Good luck.


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## WandaJ

So, I took your advise and tried to be a little more affectionate. I needed him to do something for our business, that I had been asking for several days now. Last night I ask him friendly if he could do it now, because I really do not know what else I can tell the client at that point. He storms out of the room ,all pissed off but goes to the computer. To show him that I appreciate him doing this at such later hour I put my hands on his arms, kiss him on the cheeck and say "Thank you honey".

At this point he yelles at me :"Don't kiss me now you stupid idiot. this is really complicated!" (It is not that complicated) 

he apologized an hour later. Does not change the fact that even this morning my stomach is still in knots, I have a headache, and fight urge to cry. 

No, I do not want to fall in love with him again. I wish I never had fall in love with him. It hasn't changed in twenty years, how can I expect it to change now? Maybe he simply needs someone with thicker skin, but that's not me, it costs me too much.


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## clipclop2

well I understand that you are hurt I think it's unreasonable for you to do an experiment once have a poor results and then consider the entire thing as failure. change takestime.

but look if you're doing the moral equivalent of let's go to marriage counseling so I can prove to you how incompatible you are, don't waste your time or your money. you seem to have enough solid reasons and you put up with a lot and it's just not there anymore. 

sit your husband down and in clear and simple language tell him that you are no longer in love with him that you want the divorce. Then make it so
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## VFW

I am sorry you are in this place in your marriage. I too was married to a drama mama and it about drives the other spouse nuts. You get to the point that you just do it yourself to avoid the issues. This drains the loving feelings right out of you. The chances of you two resolving this by yourselves is extremely low. 

I think that you are going to have to kick it up a notch and seek professional counseling for the two of you. I imagine that he does not take criticism well, so you need someone else to be the fair broker in this deal. You also need to have a very direct conversation with him about how you feel and where this marriage is headed. He then can choose to help fix the problems or end the relationship.


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## meson

WandaJ said:


> So, I took your advise and tried to be a little more affectionate. I needed him to do something for our business, that I had been asking for several days now. Last night I ask him friendly if he could do it now, because I really do not know what else I can tell the client at that point. He storms out of the room ,all pissed off but goes to the computer. To show him that I appreciate him doing this at such later hour I put my hands on his arms, kiss him on the cheeck and say "Thank you honey".
> 
> At this point he yelles at me :"Don't kiss me now you stupid idiot. this is really complicated!" (It is not that complicated)
> 
> he apologized an hour later. Does not change the fact that even this morning my stomach is still in knots, I have a headache, and fight urge to cry.
> 
> *No, I do not want to fall in love with him again. I wish I never had fall in love with him. It hasn't changed in twenty years, how can I expect it to change now?* Maybe he simply needs someone with thicker skin, but that's not me, it costs me too much.


If you do not want to fall in love with him that's fine but you need to let him know that and start the process. 

But don't judge that it can't happen from this event alone. When I started it took several months for my efforts to pay off. There was a lot of hurt and resentment that she had and I had to overcome before she even believed I was legitimately trying to improve. There were many months after that before the relationship moved into positive ground. It's not a light switch. 

If you are done you're done. But let him know so that the both of you can move on.


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## 3Xnocharm

WandaJ said:


> No, I do not want to fall in love with him again. I wish I never had fall in love with him. It hasn't changed in twenty years, how can I expect it to change now? Maybe he simply needs someone with thicker skin, but that's not me, it costs me too much.


Then do yourself the biggest favor of your life and get OUT. Its okay to be done, it really is. Its a hard fact to face, but once you realize it, you cannot unsee it. You are very very unhappy, so start making your exit plan.


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## WandaJ

Thank you everybody, a lot ofn wise words. Yes, I need to figure out if I still want to be part of this marriage. That's where I am now. It is a long process. The logistics of splitting one life into two is enormous. It still seems that it will be better for kids for parents to stay together for now, as long as things are staying decent on everyday basis. 
But every time he does something like this it feels like betrayal of trust. Although it shouldn't anymore.


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## clipclop2

Have you told him you are close to ending the marriage?


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## Abc123wife

WandaJ said:


> We spend first few years talking about it, crying, apologizing. All I got from this that he stopped calling me wh....e during those arguments, which still leaves a lot of mean and nasty words left.


Your husband called you a wh*** on more than one occasion during arguments? And just recently he called you a stupid idiot when you gave him a kiss and thanked him for taking care of a business request? Does he really think that is OK and that you will want to continue to have any type of relationship let alone sex with him? If my husband ever called me a wh***, I don't think I would ever talk to him again and I know I would never want to make myself vulnerable enough to ever have sex with him again. I don't know that I would ever be able to get over that. 

It seems you have become numb to that kind of treatment. After years of allowing him to treat you this way, he probably doesn't even think twice about it. You need to draw a line and let him know the boundaries and hold him to those boundaries.


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## WandaJ

Abc123wife said:


> Your husband called you a wh*** on more than one occasion during arguments? And just recently he called you a stupid idiot when you gave him a kiss and thanked him for taking care of a business request? Does he really think that is OK and that you will want to continue to have any type of relationship let alone sex with him? If my husband ever called me a wh***, I don't think I would ever talk to him again and I know I would never want to make myself vulnerable enough to ever have sex with him again. I don't know that I would ever be able to get over that.
> 
> It seems you have become numb to that kind of treatment. After years of allowing him to treat you this way, he probably doesn't even think twice about it. You need to draw a line and let him know the boundaries and hold him to those boundaries.


Yes, I've become numb, but also with years learnt to throw back at him similar words. Last year was horrible, we were ready to kill each other. And then something changed in me, and I had started feeling, instead of anger and bitterness, more empowered and resistant to him. I think that's how my process of possible leaving him has started. I haven't made decisions yet, mostly for all the practical reasons: two kids, one mortgage, one business.


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## WandaJ

I got this crazy idea just now. If you can tell if there is anything to it or I am just looking for excuses:
most of the time I feel guilty that I am not invested emotionally in this, while he is. What if he isn't either? What if we both are trying only because neither one of is ready to face the ending? But really neither one wants this, that's why he so overreacted? 
does this make any sense, or it is wishful thinking that he will make a decision for me?.....


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## 3Xnocharm

WandaJ said:


> I got this crazy idea just now. If you can tell if there is anything to it or I am just looking for excuses:
> most of the time I feel guilty that I am not invested emotionally in this, while he is. What if he isn't either? What if we both are trying only because neither one of is ready to face the ending? But really neither one wants this, that's why he so overreacted?
> does this make any sense, or it is wishful thinking that he will make a decision for me?.....


Honestly, it doesnt seem that HE is emotionally invested in this. I dont see a real effort on his part, especially with him calling you an idiot! :scratchhead: You just dont say things like that to your partner. People sometimes work at keeping their life the same, because the fear of the unknown is stronger than the misery of the current reality. At least for a time. Once you hit the point where the fear of the unknown becomes instead a beacon of hope, that is when you can move on. I think you are at this point, but you are still in denial, due to guilt mostly, it seems. If you are finding yourself constantly thinking of your life in terms of "after", then yeah....you are done and need to make it happen. Trust me, I have been there, done that, and have a couple tshirts I could give you.


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## clipclop2

There could be an element of not wanting to fail in front of others as well. It is one thing to know in your heart that you are done and another to admit it to the world.

And then there are the logistics.

What are your logistics? If you were to be able to walk out tomorrow without fear about money would you go?


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## WandaJ

clipclop2 said:


> There could be an element of not wanting to fail in front of others as well. It is one thing to know in your heart that you are done and another to admit it to the world.
> 
> And then there are the logistics.
> 
> What are your logistics? If you were to be able to walk out tomorrow without fear about money would you go?


Funny. When I talk with my closest friends (who are familiar with sitatuation), that's what I say to them, that this is a test: If I won a lottery right now, would I go? Yes, without hesitation. I would give him his half, get house close by to make it easier for kids, and I would be free.


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## WandaJ

3Xnocharm said:


> Honestly, it doesnt seem that HE is emotionally invested in this. I dont see a real effort on his part, especially with him calling you an idiot! :scratchhead: You just dont say things like that to your partner. People sometimes work at keeping their life the same, because the fear of the unknown is stronger than the misery of the current reality. At least for a time. Once yo-u hit the point where the fear of the unknown becomes instead a beacon of hope, that is when you can move on. I think you are at this point, but you are still in denial, due to guilt mostly, it seems. If you are finding yourself constantly thinking of your life in terms of "after", then yeah....you are done and need to make it happen. Trust me, I have been there, done that, and have a couple tshirts I could give you.


I believe that he is emotionally still interested, somehow. It is his pathology (because this is what it is, really), his self-destructive behavior, when he is not able and not willing to stop the train-wrack coming from his mounth before it is too late. I see verey similar pattern with our nine years old. With her though I still have chance to help her to learn to handle her stress in less destructive ways. 

He tried to talk and apologize again this morning. I have been kind of numb these last few days, drained out of emotions. He asked me how do I feel, and I told him that I do not feel any emotions at this moment. That was the end of conversation.


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## chillymorn

BPD goggle it.


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## WandaJ

chillymorn said:


> BPD goggle it.


no, bpd rulled out. sometimes people are just screw up.


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## WandaJ

3Xnocharm said:


> H People sometimes work at keeping their life the same, because the fear of the unknown is stronger than the misery of the current reality. At least for a time. Once you hit the point where the fear of the unknown becomes instead a beacon of hope, that is when you can move on.



3Xnocharm - this is brilliant what you've wrote here. I am going to steal it


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## Uptown

WandaJ said:


> It is his pathology (because this is what it is, really), his self-destructive behavior....


Wanda, given that you believe his issue is a "pathology," why do you say BPD is "ruled out"? Did a psychologist rule it out? I agree with *Chillymorn* that the behaviors you describe -- i.e., temper tantrums, very controlling behavior, rapid flips between adoring you and devaluing you, strong verbal abuse, need for drama, and "self destructive behavior" -- are classic warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). 

I nonetheless would agree with you that, if these dysfunctional behaviors only started appearing during the last half of your 20-year marriage, it is extremely unlikely that it is caused by BPD. An important issue, then, is when this childlike abusive behavior began. Did it start early in your marriage?


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## WandaJ

it was there from the very beginning, but the times between were great. I was young, in love, and hoped we will get over it. My friend just reminded me now what I told her twenty years ago after weeekend with him, in our first few months of dating: I said that I was sitting somewhere on the side of the road after argument and crying because I had met the man of my life, but he is impossible to be with . I did not remember this, but it certainly rings true. i knew from the beginning there were troubles, but if you cut out these issues, we were perfect match. I was too young and too insecure I guess to stand up for myself then. We talked, I explained, he apologized, and the circle continued. If I came to TAM ten years ago, I think this would make a difference. Now - I do not know.

Now I am just sad. We still have a freeze after that stupid idiot outburst, he is behaving somewhat, I am keeping my distance. he was trying to make up shortly after that, but it didn't work, i still cannot get over it, and now he sees that this is different than before. One night I was watching movie in gues bedroom, he separately in the living room. he fell asleep there (as usual) and I saw that he didn't watch movie, but our family pictures on tv screen. The sadness of this whole situation just hit me then, the probability that one day my kids might be going to bed at night without kiss from their dad. That he would be spending lonely evenings somewhere without them. And another sadness, that even if these things won't happen , it means I will be unhappy. I creid myself to sleep that night.

No, BP was never ruled out, he was never diagnosed. Somehow i do not see it , but maybe I shoudl read more. Although this doesn't really matter at this point.

ChargingCharlie - you didn't hijacked thread. I understand what you are saying about not looking forward to see your spouse. It's a very depressing.

I finallly read "Five languages of love". it is wise book, but I cringe even thinking about talking about love, emotions with him. I do not know - is it because it is hard talk, and hard work. or is it because there is no love left.


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## Uptown

WandaJ said:


> No, BP was never ruled out, he was never diagnosed. Somehow i do not see it , but maybe I shoudl read more.


Wanda, given that BPD is believed to be passed on through genetics and childhood environment -- and given that you have two kids -- it would be prudent to take a look at my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs to see if most sound very familiar. I suspect that most will. If so, I would recommend you read my more detailed explanation of them in Maybe's Thread. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to discuss them with you. Take care, Wanda.


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## WandaJ

Uptown, I've read both of your links. I think about 9-10 out of these 18 match, some more, some less. his side of family has a lot of issues like this, and I can see some of it (not as strongly) in our daughter. With her I still hope I will be able to help her navigate through this, help her to recognize and deal wtih her problems, while respecting others. 

I have to think and read about it more , this is first time I seriously consider that this might be posibility. I have read "In sheeps clothing" - book about manipulative people, and found a lot of similarities there. It overlaps with the signs you've listed. 
Thank you for that.


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## Uptown

WandaJ said:


> I have read "In sheeps clothing" - book about manipulative people, and found a lot of similarities there. It overlaps with the signs you've listed.


Wanda, if he really does have strong BPD traits, you likely will find him to be very controlling -- but not very good at manipulation. To be successful, manipulation requires planning and flawless execution. BPDers generally are far too reactive to whatever is happening in the moment to carry out a plan. Hence, if he is very good at manipulation, you likely are seeing narcissistic or sociopathic traits, not BPD traits.


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## john117

Uptown said:


> Wanda, if he really does have strong BPD traits, you likely will find him to be very controlling -- but not very good at manipulation. To be successful, manipulation requires planning and flawless execution. BPDers generally are far too reactive to whatever is happening in the moment to carry out a plan. Hence, if he is very good at manipulation, you likely are seeing narcissistic or sociopathic traits, not BPD traits.



I would add that the "controlling" behavior is also a byproduct of the BPD not willing to accept reality. Instead, an alternate reality has to be created where the BPD is deemed to be "in control". 

In practice this isn't the case of course and the gap between reality and fantasy could get ugly. But you can use this gap - or lack thereof - to help assess if you're dealing with BPD.


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## WandaJ

I used to think about him as high ego with narcistic traits, strong personality guy with some insecurities. He is very highly functioning, with high IQ and high education, man. What's very confusing is that he can show very high EQ and empathy in some situations, but in others he is like blind man, not seeing the most obvious. There will be times when he is very reasonable, open to suggestions, and another he will twist every word I say to fit his theory. that's why it is hard to leave relationship like this, because it is not just bad, there are times when it is great. Or at least, it used to. 
According to his family, I was the first one who tamed the lion, they even couldn't handle. Apparently, I didn't really tame it, it was the other way around. But when I think about it, I often felt like he was testing me, the small things I would do would be like test to pass. Many times I felt that my best wasn't good enough, his expectations were just too much, he was getting too needy, I felt like suffocating.


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## Uptown

WandaJ said:


> What's very confusing is that he can show very high EQ and empathy in some situations, but in others he is like blind man, not seeing the most obvious.


Wanda, it is common for a high functioning BPDer to be empathetic and compassionate all day long to total strangers and then go home at night to abuse the very people who love him. As long as people don't draw close to the BPDer, they will not pose a threat to his two great fears: abandonment and engulfment. There is no close LTR that can be abandoned and no intimacy to produce engulfment.



> There will be times when he is very reasonable, open to suggestions, and another he will twist every word I say to fit his theory. that's why it is hard to leave relationship like this, because it is not just bad, there are times when it is great.


As I said, a BPDer can be reasonable and empathetic as long as you don't draw close enough to start triggering his two fears. Moreover, even when you do draw close, you won't trigger those fears during the infatuation period. That infatuation holds his two fears at bay because he is temporarily convinced that you are the near-perfect woman who will not harm him.

Further, even after the infatuation evaporates, there still will be periods in which he will split you white, i.e., place you back onto the pedestal. Because a BPDer is unstable, he will alternate between splitting you _black_ (while his engulfment fear makes him push you away) and splitting you _white_ (while his abandonment fear makes him pull you back).



> According to his family, I was the first one who tamed the lion, they even couldn't handle. Apparently, I didn't really tame it, it was the other way around.


Perhaps so. I would rather say, however, that it is his _infatuation_ that "tames the lion." As noted above, that infatuation holds his two fears at bay. That same feeling of infatuation -- at a much reduced level -- will continue to nullify those fears for the brief periods in which he is splitting you white again. This, at least, is my understanding of the process.


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## WandaJ

At first I wanted to respond to this, that he is not afraid of emotional closeness, he can be very close. But I have to admit that I often felt like I need to pass test, if I showing enough affection, in the right way, if I am doing things right way. And felt many times, and that was giving him excuse to break that closeness. At times I felt like suffocating under those unspoken requirements.

Ok. Last night he started the TALK. It was painful. It seems like I forgot how to talk to him without getting on offense/defense right away. That talk only made me realize even more, that I do want out. I didn't not feel anything warm towards him, I do not feel like working on this relationship. I did mention the possiblity of D. I do not see this improving for few reasons:

1) He still does not get how damaging to me and our relationship is name calling, and swearing too. He says he is just high tempered, and sometimes says something he shouldn't, but apologizes later. So I should be able to get over it and stop holding grudge. That I am too sensitive. 

2) he cannot promise it will never happen again, and that's honest. And I can see it clearly now that it will happen sooner or later, and I will be waiting for it, even in the sunny times. maybe even subcosnscieusly waiting and provoking it, who knows?

3) For reason No. 2 I won't be able to open up to him to work on this marriage. I feel the wall closing.

4) I told him I do not feel like he respect my opinion, or request, even in the small things. His answer? "Oh, I always think you are saying the oposite just to get me pissed off" - WTF? He just can not accept the fact that there are differences of opinion and preferences. 
On other issue: "Oh, you didn't seem serious about it, I was just joking". I was serious, and it was dozens of times. He would look me straight in my eyes, and do the thing I asked him not to, with kids around, and then they would laugh. Like a teenager. I often had to turn around so they do not see that I have tears in my eyes, from feeling helpless and disrespected.

5) When i told him that this is not 'normal" for married people to use this kind of language (profanity and name calling) and I am very stressed about it, he laughed and said that me coaching him on marriage issues is like Hitler coaching on saving Jews....

6) The reason he called me 'stupid Idiot" was because he felt bullied and manipulated by me into doing something for business. My only comment was that it is rather normal to give your husband kiss for doing soemthing extra for you.

This guy just looks for bad intention everywhere. In me, in others. Innocent word will cause tornado. 

If it wasn't for kids, I would have finished this yesterday. That's it , I said it.


----------



## Uptown

WandaJ said:


> He is not afraid of emotional closeness, he can be very close.... And felt many times that was giving him excuse to break that closeness.


If he is a high functioning BPDer, he likely will crave emotional closeness just like other folks do. And he will be able to tolerate it for short periods. Yet, because a BPDer has such a fragile sense of self, sustained intimacy eventually will cause him to feel like he is losing his identity inside your strong personality. He may feel like he is evaporating into thin air. 

More likely, however, he would feel like you are controlling and suffocating him. When that happens, a BPDer's subconscious will protect him from the pain by projecting a hurtful thought or feeling onto you. He therefore will be convinced, at a conscious level, that YOU are the cause of the hurtful feeling. The result is that BPDers typically will enjoy intense intimacy for a few hours or days and then, when they start feeling engulfed, they will start a fight over absolutely nothing. Although that fight is all about a feeling his subconscious has projected onto you, he will be unaware of that at a conscious level. He will be absolutely convinced that you've done something wrong.

My point, then, is that a BPDer will not react to the engulfment fear by saying to you, "I feel suffocated and engulfed." Instead, he will subconsciously transfer that hurtful feeling to you and thus be convinced, at a conscious level, that you are making him unhappy. The result, of course, is a series of fights that are impervious to your rational arguments. 

Moreover, the very WORST of these fights typically will come immediately after (if not during) the very BEST of times. My BPDer exW, for example, would start the worst fights on the third day of a great vacation or the morning after we had spent a very intimate evening together.



> But I have to admit that I often felt like I need to pass test, if I showing enough affection, in the right way, if I am doing things right way.


Because a BPDer has low self esteem and hates himself, he cannot believe that anyone else will love him once she discovers what he's like on the inside. Because a BPDer lives in fear that his partner will make this discovery and then abandon him, he will administer a series of s**t tests to see how loyal you are at the moment. Importantly, passing the test only proves to him that you've not yet discovered how empty he is on the inside. 

He will still remain convinced that your love will persist only until you discover his true self. The result of the test, then, is that he will simply raise the hoop higher when you are asked to jump through again on the next test... and the next test ... and the next test.



> The reason he called me 'stupid Idiot" was because he felt bullied and manipulated by me into doing something for business.


Due to his fears of abandonment and engulfment, a BPDer has a powerful desire to control his partner's life. To avoid feeling guilty about his controlling thoughts and behavior, his subconscious projects it all onto you. This, then, is why a BPDer will be firmly convinced that his partner is frequently controlling him. And he will get supporting "evidence" of that every time he feels engulfment during intimacy -- because he will feel suffocated and controlled.



> This guy just looks for bad intention everywhere. In me, in others. Innocent word will cause tornado.


If he is a BPDer, he really does not want to find "bad intention everywhere." He nonetheless will see exactly that because he is unable to control his own emotions. This means he will experience such intense feelings that they will distort his perception of other peoples' motivations and intentions. This is why BPD is said to be a "thought disorder."


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## WandaJ

uptown, this feels so close to home it's scary. I need to think more about it. I really appreciate all your input, it has been great help to me.


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## rmarie72

I'm in a somewhat similar situation as far as no desire for my husband of 22 years. The one thing I have to say though is that we never had called each other names or had any verbal abuse - that is UNACCEPTABLE in my book. I think it's extremely disrespectful to be nasty like that and I wouldn't stay in a marriage where that was happening.


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## WandaJ

So there is some new development. Things were going downhill since that " stupid idiot" comments. He sincerely apologized but I was not able to get past it. After a while he was expecting me to get over it. He said that it was always like this, and people who love each other forgive each other, why is this now all of the sudden different? And that he is not such bad husband, he works, takes care of kids, house, family. We kept distance, which for me was comfortable, as I did not have to worry about his moods. For him it was icy time.
We had few talks , did' change much. At one point I have reminded him what he called me last winter - he was in such fury, unstoppable, called me something I won't even share here-and for me this was defining moment of our marriage, when I have started checking out emotionally and seriously think this would have to end, it's matter when. You know what was most amazing? He completely forgot all about it. It was so minor for him, while being so significant to me. All the guys with WAW wives - maybe try to find moment like this? Just a thought ....

Ok, last Sunday. He keeps barking at me in the kitchen and barking. I was looking at him, looking and all of the sudden blurted out "I want divorce" . He keeps talking. " Do you hear what I've said? I want divorce"

We had very hard talk that evening. It didn't go too well. He kept saying he still loves me and wants to work on it. I kept saying "sure, we should try working on it, we have young kids" not good promise, right, but anything more that that would be a lie.

And then I've mentioned some other issues I have. How I feel left all alone with family and business finances, with all the problems and issues. So we started talking about practical things, how can we change it, what can we improve, and this is really when the ice broke. Opening up on those issues helped me to articulate some other stuff too. It thawed the ice in me. 

At this point I feel cautiously optimistic, for the first time in ten years maybe? Maybe little less than that. It won't be easy, we both have built up a lot of resentments, but we are also aware that we just avoided a train wrack. 

So, to answer my own question, it is possible to find the old affection. How permanent it will be, time will tell.


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## farsidejunky

It is a first step!

Good for you. But...

Your H needs work. His emotions are all over the place. And you are raw. That is a recipe for disaster.

What are you each doing for love bank deposits?


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## WandaJ

It is work in progress. Right now ou love banks got some deposit after being in red for so long. We have agreed on safe word when he starts getting out of control. I told him I do not want to live in boxing ring anymore, we both agreed on that. We planning on taking off for couple days without kids, maybe some date nights. At this point we are very careful.


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## farsidejunky

I am going to try to get Blossom Leigh over to your thread. She dealt with very similar things with her DH.


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## 3Xnocharm

Give him 90 days. If he is still working on things and improving after 90 days, then you can start working on trying to get some affection back for him. Hate to be the downer here, but I will be surprised if he makes it that long.


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## Blossom Leigh

Oh, WandaJ, I hurt for you. There are some things VERY telling to me about both of you. But before I get into those I just want to say I hear your weariness, the numbness, the wall. I hear the attempts to hold onto hope. I hear the deep helpless feeling and the loneliness that comes with it. I hear the fear of it coming apart, your dream guy. I hear your fascination over him that is so wrapped in pain that the only way to stay around him is to be totally shut off on the inside. I've been through this... More than once and yes it the feelings can be rebuilt but your process at this point will be centered on if he has the capacity. You have his willingness which is 80% of the battle, but two things 1) do you have ALL of his willingness and 2) does he possess the capacity to really do this. 

Tell me about what kind of work he does.

Do yall work this business together and for how long?


----------



## Uptown

Wanda, thanks for giving us another update. I was wondering how you two were doing, especially now that the holiday season is here.


WandaJ said:


> It is possible to find the old affection. How permanent it will be, time will tell.


My experience is that "time will tell" only if you are willing to listen -- and believe what you're seeing. If your H has strong BPD traits, your making an accurate assessment of his progress will be far, far harder than it seems. The problem is that BPDers are always dramatically improving -- in the same way that smokers are seen to be always "quitting" and throwing away their "last" pack of cigarettes -- every 6 to 8 weeks.

In my case, I was blinded for 15 years by my love for my exW. For the first two years, I expected that her behavior might get worse for a while due to getting in touch with hurtful feelings once a week in her therapy sessions. After that, I really did believe I was seeing a bit of improvement -- where none existed at all. Instead, her behavior was getting worse. That eventually became apparent to me, after 15 years, when she had me jailed on a bogus charge and filed a R/O barring me from returning to my own home. 

Amazingly, even THAT was insufficient to persuade me to give up on her. Caregivers like me are LOATH to walk away from a sick loved one. I therefore was convinced that, when the matter went to court, there was no way she would stand up and make those false allegations against me in front of the judge and my step children. But, of course, that is exactly what she did. Only THEN was I willing to see the truth and file for divorce. I therefore am hopeful that clarity will come to you far faster than it did to me.


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## Blossom Leigh

Also, would you consider writing the list of 9 to 10 bpd traits you saw on the list?


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## happy as a clam

clipclop2 said:


> And just to be sure, there is no one else you fancy, right?





WandaJ said:


> No, nobody out there. I wouldn't even have time or energy for that .


Wanda... forgive me if I'm mistaken, but I seem to recall in another thread another TAMer called you out on this. I asked you directly whether or not it was true, and unless I'm mistaken, you told me that there WAS another man involved, that you had an affair.

I can't seem to find that post now. 

Which is it? Affair, or no affair? Because I think that changes a lot of the advice you're getting here.

Anyway, I highly recommend reading "Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men" by Lundy Bancroft. Your husband reminds me of my husband. I divorced him.


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## WandaJ

Thank you all for the insight. I am very much aware that it won't be easy. I do not look at our situation through pink glasses. But we did push the reset button, and will go from there. If it wasn't for all the logistics - children, mortgage, business - I would have quit, just because now I know that I prefer low drama, calm, stable relation. But children are small, there are financial obligations to deal with, business together, so I am going to give it another shot. 
I do think he has potential to get his shiiiit together, to some degree. he can be very determinded man, if he sets his mind on something he really wants, he can get there. He did things nobody thought would be possible to do. Now let's see if his family goes into category of things he really wants. he needs to learn to vent his frustrations wihtout making it personal attacks on me. I did tell him that since I hadn't developed "thicker skin" in twety years, it is not going to happen. It hurts me and it makes me to withdraw emotionally, so it is up to him what he can do wtih this ifnormation.

Definitely life is easier today, than it was just week ago, when it was full of anger, resentmetn, constant tit for tat. When I was wondering which condo community should I consider when we sell the house and split the money. I am taking one day at the time, like recovering alcoholics. 

To answer happy as clam question - yes, there was someone. It was long distance relationship without future, but it helped me to stand up high again and remember that there are different kind fo relationship, based on mutual respect and kindness. It is sad and I consider my personal tragedy that it took affair for me to find myself again. We have finished it, as it was getting too serious, and things are complicated here already. I did not want to mention it becuase at TAM this attracts bunch of vicious, hatefull comments, and I have enough of that crap at home already. constructive comments are welcome, but I am going to ignore all others in that regards. That's how political correctnes kills discussion.


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## WorkingOnMe

Does your husband know?


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## WandaJ

WorkingOnMe said:


> Does your husband know?


No.


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## WandaJ

3Xnocharm said:


> Give him 90 days. If he is still working on things and improving after 90 days, then you can start working on trying to get some affection back for him. Hate to be the downer here, but I will be surprised if he makes it that long.


You are not a downer 3Xnocharm, you are realist The reason I am "cautiosly optimistic" is because for the first time in those twnety years he really owned that behavior. In the past he would apologize, but also felt I need to get over it and stop "chewing" it. Of course, the question is if he manages to overcome his own out of control tongue..


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## WandaJ

Blossom Leigh said:


> Oh, WandaJ, I hurt for you. There are some things VERY telling to me about both of you. But before I get into those I just want to say I hear your weariness, the numbness, the wall. I hear the attempts to hold onto hope. I hear the deep helpless feeling and the loneliness that comes with it. I hear the fear of it coming apart, your dream guy. I hear your fascination over him that is so wrapped in pain that the only way to stay around him is to be totally shut off on the inside. I've been through this... More than once and yes it the feelings can be rebuilt but your process at this point will be centered on if he has the capacity. You have his willingness which is 80% of the battle, but two things 1) do you have ALL of his willingness and 2) does he possess the capacity to really do this.
> 
> Tell me about what kind of work he does.
> 
> Do yall work this business together and for how long?


Yes, I can tell you know exactly what you are talking about. the pain and fascination were there at the beginning, now after twenty years is more of loneliness and disapointment, and of course, building the wall. We will see if he has the capacity. For the first time he owned this behavior without excuses, so it's a start. it is not easy for me, I have to work on me too, even having normal friendly conversation is a work now, after shutting off for so long. But I need to be practical.

He is in well paying professional services and deals with people all they long, and has really good connections with most of them. We both own the business, and I manage it and handle the administrative part (it is very paperwork and phone extensive). We are not in the same location, so that's a very good thing. I work from home, he is in the office.


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## WandaJ

happy as a clam said:


> Anyway, I highly recommend reading "Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men" by Lundy Bancroft. Your husband reminds me of my husband. I divorced him.


Happy as claim, I will get that book. right now I am considering about asking him to read Love Busters, especially the first 3 chapters really cover it all for me. 

Have you have kids together? Because that's mostly what keeps me in. he is really good father. I think there is part of me that has been shut off completely and won't open for him anymore.


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## WandaJ

Uptown said:


> Wanda, thanks for giving us another update. I was wondering how you two were doing, especially now that the holiday season is here.My experience is that "time will tell" only if you are willing to listen -- and believe what you're seeing. If your H has strong BPD traits, your making an accurate assessment of his progress will be far, far harder than it seems. The problem is that BPDers are always dramatically improving -- in the same way that smokers are seen to be always "quitting" and throwing away their "last" pack of cigarettes -- every 6 to 8 weeks.
> 
> In my case, I was blinded for 15 years by my love for my exW. For the first two years, I expected that her behavior might get worse for a while due to getting in touch with hurtful feelings once a week in her therapy sessions. After that, I really did believe I was seeing a bit of improvement -- where none existed at all. Instead, her behavior was getting worse. That eventually became apparent to me, after 15 years, when she had me jailed on a bogus charge and filed a R/O barring me from returning to my own home.
> 
> Amazingly, even THAT was insufficient to persuade me to give up on her. Caregivers like me are LOATH to walk away from a sick loved one. I therefore was convinced that, when the matter went to court, there was no way she would stand up and make those false allegations against me in front of the judge and my step children. But, of course, that is exactly what she did. Only THEN was I willing to see the truth and file for divorce. I therefore am hopeful that clarity will come to you far faster than it did to me.


Uptown - did you have kids together? I am pretty sure that I would prefer to be on my own, I've been disillisioned for a long time, but it is kids that keeps me trying to work on it. I am trying to stand hard on the ground and do what I can. They are my priority, my own needs are on the back burner. As long as we can have relatively stable home, kids win.


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## WandaJ

AArgh! This won't be easy....


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## Uptown

WandaJ said:


> Uptown - did you have kids together? ...As long as we can have relatively stable home, kids win.


Yes, you should do whatever you decide is in the best interests of your children. In my case, all my step children were adults and living elsewhere by the time my exW and I separated. Moreover, I never chose to leave. My exW had me arrested and then obtained a R/O barring me from returning home.


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## WandaJ

Uptown said:


> Yes, you should do whatever you decide is in the best interests of your children. In my case, all my step children were adults and living elsewhere by the time my exW and I separated. Moreover, I never chose to leave. My exW had me arrested and then obtained a R/O barring me from returning home.


Wow, things did turned nasty for you. I can not even imagine how that must have felt, someone you love, you fight for, trying to support throught her problems, turning against you like this. I hope you have found your peace by now, and have moved forward past her.


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## happy as a clam

WandaJ said:


> Happy as claim, I will get that book. right now I am considering about asking him to read Love Busters, especially the first 3 chapters really cover it all for me.
> 
> Have you have kids together? Because that's mostly what keeps me in. he is really good father. I think there is part of me that has been shut off completely and won't open for him anymore.


 Yes, we had two kids, ages 14 and 17 when I filed for divorce. It was a very hard decision--took me five years to finally pull the plug. My kids paid a HUGE price for my staying in the marriage far too long. They told me after it was all over that they wish I had left sooner. "Staying for the kids" only teaches them what a dysfunctional marriage is, and reinforces the unhealthy pattern which they will likely repeat in their own marriages. Sad any way you slice it.

My ex was a "good father" too. But when you put your kids ahead of your marriage, everyone suffers. Your marriage has to be the priority. Kids should be the product of a healthy marriage, not the reason to stay in misery. (Getting ready to dodge the flames now...)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown

WandaJ said:


> I hope you have found your peace by now, and have moved forward past her.


Yes, Wanda, I now realize that being thrown into jail for three days on a bogus charge was one of the best things to ever happen to me. That's what it took to make me realize I had to file for divorce. Otherwise, I would have continued putting up with her abuse in a failed effort to "save" her from self destruction. I now realize, of course, that my enabling behavior was harming both of us. I should have left her many years earlier.


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## 3Xnocharm

happy as a clam said:


> Yes, we had two kids, ages 14 and 17 when I filed for divorce. It was a very hard decision--took me five years to finally pull the plug. My kids paid a HUGE price for my staying in the marriage far too long. They told me after it was all over that they wish I had left sooner. "Staying for the kids" only teaches them what a dysfunctional marriage is, and reinforces the unhealthy pattern which they will likely repeat in their own marriages. Sad any way you slice it.
> 
> My ex was a "good father" too. But when you put your kids ahead of your marriage, everyone suffers. Your marriage has to be the priority. Kids should be the product of a healthy marriage, not the reason to stay in misery. (Getting ready to dodge the flames now...)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree::iagree:


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## Idyit

But when you put your kids ahead of your marriage said:


> marriage has to be the priority[/B]. Kids should be *the product of a healthy marriage*, not the reason to stay in misery. (Getting ready to dodge the flames now...)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:

No flames here. Well said.

~ Passio


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## Blossom Leigh

I have a different twist on "not staying or staying for the kids" and it is this... either way they need different.. you cannot stay in status quo. You MUST stay *different* or leave. My H is QUITE aware that regression for us is NOT an option. We can NEVER go back to where we were, EVER. I will leave first. He got one shot and so far he is focused on being the man he needs to be to be right for our family. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeMzeT8U0FI


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## WandaJ

Uptown said:


> Yes, Wanda, I now realize that being thrown into jail for three days on a bogus charge was one of the best things to ever happen to me. That's what it took to make me realize I had to file for divorce. Otherwise, I would have continued putting up with her abuse in a failed effort to "save" her from self destruction. I now realize, of course, that my enabling behavior was harming both of us. I should have left her many years earlier.


I guess you were what they call on other thread KISA - the Knight in the Shinning Armor, trying to save her from her own destruction. That sounds so familiar, we see the best in them and try to "rescue" them, until one day it is just too much.


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## WandaJ

Blossom Leigh said:


> I have a different twist on "not staying or staying for the kids" and it is this... either way they need different.. you cannot stay in status quo. You MUST stay *different* or leave. My H is QUITE aware that regression for us is NOT an option. We can NEVER go back to where we were, EVER. I will leave first. He got one shot and so far he is focused on being the man he needs to be to be right for our family.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeMzeT8U0FI


I agree with you on this, that's why I am staying. If things manage to stay on decent level, it is better. If they go back to the old anger and arguments, then yes, divorce is better.
I guess You and I are more or less at the same point - after years of enabling behavior we had finally set the limit, and now we hope this will work. The other posters here are past that point, and I cannot blame them. 

Is there somewhere a thread with your story? can you pasta a link to it?


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## Blossom Leigh

You know I'm not sure what I have out there, but I will come back and post here for you. Headed to a Christmas party at my son's school, brb


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## Anon1111

A few random thoughts:

- Even if you are both committed to change course, it will not be a straight line up. The hardest thing is absorbing the bumps and not allowing them to trigger all of the built up resentment. You have to consciously resist that.

- Take a look back 2-3 months from now to see if there is general improvement. If you are doing things right, you should see it. Repeat this as you go. Again, things will not suddenly be perfect, but you should be able to see trends over time. If you don't, it's not working.

- When you see positive behavior, reinforce it.

- When you see negative behavior do not feed it. Look for a way to shut it down that allows both of you to save face. Do not use it as an opportunity to strike back. 

- Do not ever speak about the affair thing to anyone. Based on what you've written, it's understandable how you went down that path, but this will engulf every other thing if it ever gets out. 

- Consider what you offered to your affair partner and whether you can offer that same side of yourself to your husband. My guess is that he misses that part of you.

- Consider also that your affair partner was a fantasy and you did not need to navigate the difficulties of life with him as you have with your husband. 

- Try to find a way to forgive slights and let go of day to day anger. Do not allow these small things to build up into another blow up. It is hard to let that stuff go, but you will personally feel better about yourself each time you do it.

- Center your evaluation on the viability of your marriage on the long term trend. See the forest.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Blossom Leigh said:


> Also, would you consider writing the list of 9 to 10 bpd traits you saw on the list?


I still am interested in this information when you have time.


----------



## WandaJ

Blossom Leigh said:


> I still am interested in this information when you have time.


Ok, from the list in the thread in the link provided by Uptown:

1. Black-white thinking, wherein she categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad" and will recategorize someone -- in just a few seconds -- from one polar extreme to the other based on a minor infraction;. 
It is not exactly always like this, but tendencies are there. One minor action will change his opinion of someone by 180 degrees

2 A strong sense of entitlement resulting in double standards 

3. Flipping, on a dime, between adoring you and devaluing you -- making you feel like you're always walking on eggshells;
Yes!

4. Frequently creating drama over issues so minor that neither of you can recall what the fight was about two days later; - yes!

5. Verbal abuse and anger that is easily triggered, in seconds, by a minor thing you say or do (real or imagined), resulting in temper tantrums that typically last several hours;

They usually do not last several hours, it is rather short, especially now, when he got older, he gets to his senses much sooner.

6. Having many casual friends but not any close long-term friends (unless they live a long distance away);


7 convinced that her intense feelings accurately reflect reality -- to the point that he often "rewrites history" because he regards her own feelings as self-evident facts, despite his inability to support them with any hard evidence.

So, more or less this is it. The list often says "always" - that is not always a case here - sometimes he acts like this, sometims he is very reasonable. How does that compare's to your hubby?


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## WandaJ

Anon1111 said:


> A few random thoughts:
> 
> - Even if you are both committed to change course, it will not be a straight line up. The hardest thing is absorbing the bumps and not allowing them to trigger all of the built up resentment. You have to consciously resist that.
> 
> - Take a look back 2-3 months from now to see if there is general improvement. If you are doing things right, you should see it. Repeat this as you go. Again, things will not suddenly be perfect, but you should be able to see trends over time. If you don't, it's not working.
> 
> - When you see positive behavior, reinforce it.
> 
> - When you see negative behavior do not feed it. Look for a way to shut it down that allows both of you to save face. Do not use it as an opportunity to strike back.
> 
> - Do not ever speak about the affair thing to anyone. Based on what you've written, it's understandable how you went down that path, but this will engulf every other thing if it ever gets out.
> 
> - Consider what you offered to your affair partner and whether you can offer that same side of yourself to your husband. My guess is that he misses that part of you.
> 
> - Consider also that your affair partner was a fantasy and you did not need to navigate the difficulties of life with him as you have with your husband.
> 
> - Try to find a way to forgive slights and let go of day to day anger. Do not allow these small things to build up into another blow up. It is hard to let that stuff go, but you will personally feel better about yourself each time you do it.
> 
> - Center your evaluation on the viability of your marriage on the long term trend. See the forest.


Anon, that's very wise post. I do realize it won't be easy, the bumps are here and there all the time. I have been following your last post "Can't you just hold me..." and I know that you are on similar journey, even though for different reasons. It will take strenght and determination of both sides.

I guess good luck in working hard on our marriages, and our spoused following us there


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## Blossom Leigh

So he is ..

Extroverted
Hair pin trigger anger
Explosive
Caustic when angry
Has difficulty self assessing aka, lacks humility
Duration of anger has shortened as he has aged
And he is controlling
Very self protective


Can you give me an example of his entitlement/double standard?

About the only thing different on that list to my H is mine is Introverted.


----------



## Uptown

WandaJ said:


> Ok, from the list in the thread provided by Uptown:
> 
> Black-white thinking,
> A strong sense of entitlement
> Flipping, on a dime
> Frequently creating drama
> Verbal abuse and anger, temper tantrums
> Having no close long-term friends
> convinced that feelings accurately reflect reality


Wanda, if he really does exhibit a strong pattern of BPD traits, I am surprised you don't mention strong signs of low self esteem, fear of abandonment, lack of impulse control, and frequently being "The Victim" (i.e., blaming every misfortune on you). If these symptoms are not strong, I would suggest you read about Intermittent Explosive Disorder. 

IEDers exhibit the symptoms you mention. Unlike BPDers, however, they typically have a strong self image, they usually will apologize after the temper tantrum subsides and admit they were wrong, and they don't have a great fear of abandonment or low self esteem. When strictly defined, IED reportedly is quite rare. Yet, when you count the folks having moderate to strong traits of it, IED is much more common. 

This still would not explain, however, why you left "lack of impulse control" off the list. IEDers have serious problems controlling impulses, which is why they will suddenly explode into a rage and then calm down quickly.


----------



## WandaJ

Uptown said:


> Wanda, if he really does exhibit a strong pattern of BPD traits, I am surprised you don't mention strong signs of low self esteem, fear of abandonment, lack of impulse control, and frequently being "The Victim" (i.e., blaming every misfortune on you). If these symptoms are not strong, I would suggest you read about Intermittent Explosive Disorder.
> 
> IEDers exhibit the symptoms you mention. Unlike BPDers, however, they typically have a strong self image, they usually will apologize after the temper tantrum subsides and admit they were wrong, and they don't have a great fear of abandonment or low self esteem. When strictly defined, IED reportedly is quite rare. Yet, when you count the folks having moderate to strong traits of it, IED is much more common.
> 
> This still would not explain, however, why you left "lack of impulse control" off the list. IEDers have serious problems controlling impulses, which is why they will suddenly explode into a rage and then calm down quickly.


I think you right, EID is more likely. There is high self esteem, sometimes on the border of narcisim (and he admits that). I was on the fence about lack of impulse control - it definitely explains rages, but after re-thinking it I think I should have added it to the list. I guess the reason I did not add it is because there are many situations, when he can show great restraint, if neccessary, mostly in professional setting. But he can be very impatient, wtih me, kids at times when he gets tired or bored (with so called family activities like being some crowded, boring for parents, but awesome for kids place).

What I worry about now, is that I can see kids repeating the pattern of impatient, not always respectufl talk. Particularly my older daughter is showing similar character traits as he does, lack of impulse control, hight self esteem/low esteem ambivalence, always being a victim. With her sometimes I worry about potential for BPD in the future. 
so this is the next subject for a talk with him.


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## WandaJ

Blossom Leigh said:


> So he is ..
> 
> Extroverted
> Hair pin trigger anger
> Explosive
> Caustic when angry
> Has difficulty self assessing aka, lacks humility
> Duration of anger has shortened as he has aged
> And he is controlling
> Very self protective
> 
> 
> Can you give me an example of his entitlement/double standard?
> 
> About the only thing different on that list to my H is mine is Introverted.


why do you think my husband is extroverted?

an example of entitlement/double standard. I have many.... When I say I was busy, because I had bunch of phone calls /e-mails to do/follow up he would say "that should take that long, few minutes and done". When sometimes on weekends he has to do few phone calls/e-mails, which actually take him around half an hour total, it's a huge issue, he is very busy and very pissed off about that.
Or when he gets on diet, it is my responsibility. When in the past I was on diet and asked "maybe let's not buy this or that, because it is too tempting for me", he would shrug and say that lack of my strong will was not his problem. Well, karma sometims is a b....ch, now for the first time he is the fatter one, while I got things relatively under control. He always envies those who have more, without appreciating how much he has (and we are not poor)


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## pidge70

A person can be a BPD'er and have IED. Those are just 2 of the diagnoses I have on my psych profile.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh

He felt extroverted, is he not?


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## WandaJ

so far things are going so so. First couple of weeks were really nice, then he was a little impatient when stressed which is enough for me at this point to start withdrawing. Then he feels like he is not allowed to be upsed and frustrated anymore without me making him a monster. Downhill spiral from there. 

There were horrible days and better days. I just feel very deflated right now. I did open up emotionally, which was surprise even to me, I tougth this was not possible anymore. I guess when you live in tension, you try to grab any ray of hope, survival instinct to release that tension. Now my walls came back, and they are higher then before. I am trying, and I will be for a while, but I know that there is huge part of me that will never opens up to him again. That even if I stay, this is how it will be. I will be smiling, talking, doing whatever is expected from me. Which makes me realize how unhappy and tense I am. I cry myself to sleep every other night. My stomach feels tight, and I feel almost physically nauseous even when things are quiet and ok. I feel cornered. I do not have any family here, everybody is far away. My work is tied with my marriage. There are too many financial obligations right now to deal with. I just do not see divorce at this moment. But I have a feeling that this year might be decisive year for my marriage.

Thank you all for support and advise. It helped a lot to understand what's going on in my marriage, but even more what's going on inside me. I will keep you posted on major developments, but I do not want to be one of those posters that keep coming with the same complainsts again and again, are given wise advise, and do nothing, just posting more. I do not know how long wil it take me to figure out things, I don't know if things get better or worse. 

I always hated ****y, self-assured guys, and then I married one. What could have gone wrong?


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## Blossom Leigh

Wanda, can you guys separate? You need emotional space from him really bad.


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## Uptown

> I often felt like he was testing me, the small things I would do would be like test to pass. Many times I felt that my best wasn't good enough, his expectations were just too much, he was getting too needy, I felt like suffocating.





> I often felt like I need to pass test, if I showing enough affection, in the right way, if I am doing things right way. And felt many times, and that was giving him excuse to break that closeness. At times I felt like suffocating under those unspoken requirements.


Wanda, I just found these two statements in your 10/20 and 10/21 posts. I mention them because the endless sh*t-testing you describe is a warning sign for BPD, not IED. I am beginning to suspect that, when it comes to his personal life outside the business, your H doesn't have the high esteem and self confidence you believe he has. You seem to be describing a man who doesn't believe he is lovable and cannot trust you to continue loving him. If so, he will be motivated to give you one test after the other to see if you will stay loyal. Passing a test gives him no relief because he cannot completely trust you. The only result of passing these tests, then, is that the bar is simply raised higher on the next test.

With BPDers, these sh*t-tests are administered regularly to see if the partner still loves enough to put up with it. That is one purpose of the testing. The other is that, by pushing the partner away with this abusive treatment, the BPDer is able to get mini-vacations from intimacy. As I noted earlier, BPDers crave intimacy like the rest of us but cannot tolerate it for very long because their self image is so weak.



WandaJ said:


> I do not know how long will it take me to figure out things.


Wanda, you may be able to speed things up by seeing a psychologist -- for a visit or two _all by yourself _-- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what you and the kids are dealing with. I would suggest finding one who is experienced in treating BPD or IED, perhaps by calling the psych departments at a large local hospital or university and asking for a recommendation -- or reading about the local psychologists online.


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## WandaJ

Uptown, I think you are right about him not feeling secure in relationship, hence all those s..t test. He can also be very arrogant and demanding, but taking many casual remarks as offensive, or simply nagging, or just saying it to piss him off. Having different opinion seems to him unrealistic since his is a right one. He can have demands, but not the other way around. In effect This means even simple disagreements are about power. Like today - he gets ups and opens all the patio doors, and gets into tantrum because I want to keep a/ c on, it was eighty something degrees. He is all offended about it, although he would be spending his day outside anyway, while we inside would be sweating. It was beautiful out there, it was beach/pool weather (which we did later) but inside was getting stuffy. So my choice is to shut up and take it or keep fighting. Very exhausting. And half an hour later he chews on it and accepts the fact that ac is on, and is all cheerful again, and has no idea that I have detached a milimeter more since than. Rinse, repeat.

I do realize that I do not have anymore any romantic feelings towards him. i am detaching. The pleasant days without major problems are in some ways even more stressful for me - I start feeling guilty about how I feel, that maybe I am not trying hard enough? Then when he barks at me I almost feel better because at least I feel justified. I know, completely screw up,

My problem with marriage counseling is that our name is kind of known in the area and it would be hard to keep annonimity.


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## farsidejunky

WandaJ said:


> My problem with marriage counseling is that our name is kind of known in the area and it would be hard to keep annonimity.


Wanda, I have been lurking since you first posted.

Yes, your hubby has problems. He treats you poorly.

But the quoted paragraph? That says everything about how you prioritize things.

This truly has me questioning YOU. 

How can you even begin to say that you did want to try to salvage the marriage when you value reputation over THE crucial tool for tackling marriage problems?


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## john117

If she's dealing with a BPD spouse marriage counseling isn't going to be very effective, if at all.


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## farsidejunky

Until the "if" becomes a "when", she owes it to the marriage to find out.


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## Anon1111

OK, time to focus on what you can actually do. 

Can you:

1. Let your husband know clearly without emotion what his problem behaviors are (outbursts)?

2. Tell him you are no longer going to respond to these outbursts or remain in his company when he demonstrates his behavior?

3. Consistently (no exceptions) follow through (I.e., walk away calmly when he does this, with no parting shots)?

If you have not already tried this, I think it would be worth it. You should assume that initially this approach will exacerbate his anger. It will take many repetitions before he accepts that you are for real. Eventually, if he has any ability to control himself, he should see that he is only talking to himself when he does this and tone it down. 

He will probably never be able to entirely stop even if you do your best. But you may be able to help move this interaction to a tolerable level.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WandaJ

Anon, things are on tolerable level most of the time. And I think that's why it is depressing - that "tolerable" is supposed to be my life.

Frankly, I do not care anymore, why he is doing it, BP or not. I thik I am checking out emotionally. I think I might be on my way to depression, as I feel like I am boxed in with nowhere to go.


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## WandaJ

farsidejunky said:


> Wanda, I have been lurking since you first posted.
> 
> Yes, your hubby has problems. He treats you poorly.
> 
> But the quoted paragraph? That says everything about how you prioritize things.
> 
> This truly has me questioning YOU.
> 
> How can you even begin to say that you did want to try to salvage the marriage when you value reputation over THE crucial tool for tackling marriage problems?


It is not about reputation. It is much more complicated than that and our livelihood is at stake. The money that pays the bills. I cannot say any more than that due to the privacy issues. 

The salvaging the marriage? - I think that part depresses me. What I really want is to run away and not look back, but that;s not possible.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

WandaJ said:


> It is not about reputation. It is much more complicated than that and our livelihood is at stake. The money that pays the bills. I cannot say any more than that due to the privacy issues.
> 
> The salvaging the marriage? - I think that part depresses me. What I really want is to run away and not look back, but that;s not possible.


That is a dangerous spot to be in...

what are you doing to keep yourself from making a destructive choice?


----------



## Anon1111

WandaJ said:


> Anon, things are on tolerable level most of the time. And I think that's why it is depressing - that "tolerable" is supposed to be my life.
> 
> Frankly, I do not care anymore, why he is doing it, BP or not. I thik I am checking out emotionally. I think I might be on my way to depression, as I feel like I am boxed in with nowhere to go.


OK, I think the key here is whether if you can manage the negatives to a degree whereby the overall character of your marriage is defined by the positives.

In other words, get the negatives under control and then the positives can shine through.

It is never going to be perfect, obviously, but it should be generally good.

Right now, it sounds generally bad. Maybe you can't ever get to generally good. 

I am not letting your husband off the hook by the way, but you have an ability to do something yourself.

What can you own that will improve things. Really own, as in you make a decision to fix it regardless of what he does?

Can you promise yourself to not engage in these outbursts?

Make your goal something small like that. Accomplish it and then look up and evaluate. You should see an improvement. Then find another thing to own and nail that down. You will feel better about yourself when you show that you can control yourself in this way.

It is just like getting in shape physically. You start slow and build on it. Soon it will take its own momentum.


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## Blossom Leigh

The book You Don't Have to Take it Anymore addresses exactly want Anon is saying ... I highly recommend it and support what Anon is sharing.

The book Boundaries is great too.


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## farsidejunky

WandaJ said:


> It is not about reputation. It is much more complicated than that and our livelihood is at stake. The money that pays the bills. I cannot say any more than that due to the privacy issues.


Rationalization, my lady. You just made my point for me by illustrating that in fact it is not one thing but another that is more important than your marriage.

Hypothetically, what if your choices were to maintain your income yet lose your family, or take a chance on making your marriage good again at the risk of your income?

This may become more than a hypothetical...


----------



## neglected42

I understand how you are feeling, although have no good advice. 
Years of mistreatment have left you broken. You have lost all feelings for your husband. 

You have children......responsibilities....big ones! It is all up to you. Your husband is changing for the better. All you need to do is feel warmly toward him. You can then move forward, repair your marriage, make everything right.

Except you don't feel warmly toward him, you feel empty. So you smile when your supposed to, go through the motions. After all, you have to keep TRYING. Everyone is relying on you. 

Too bad your heart, your mind cannot do what you so desperately need it too. I understand. 

I wish you the best. If you ever find the magic solution to regaining the kind of feelings necessary to happily reconnect with your husband, please pass it on.

So much great advice on this website. Yet feelings are tricky. Logic, steps, goals....can a person really just think themselves out of this?


----------



## WandaJ

Anon1111 said:


> OK, I think the key here is whether if you can manage the negatives to a degree whereby the overall character of your marriage is defined by the positives.
> 
> In other words, get the negatives under control and then the positives can shine through.
> 
> It is never going to be perfect, obviously, but it should be generally good.
> 
> Right now, it sounds generally bad. Maybe you can't ever get to generally good.
> 
> I am not letting your husband off the hook by the way, but you have an ability to do something yourself.
> 
> What can you own that will improve things. Really own, as in you make a decision to fix it regardless of what he does?
> 
> Can you promise yourself to not engage in these outbursts?
> 
> Make your goal something small like that. Accomplish it and then look up and evaluate. You should see an improvement. Then find another thing to own and nail that down. You will feel better about yourself when you show that you can control yourself in this way.
> 
> It is just like getting in shape physically. You start slow and build on it. Soon it will take its own momentum.


Anon, that's good suggestions. I cannot change him, I can change myself. And since I am stuck here, at least for now, I should try to do best out of it. 

I do feel better now anyway. Two weeks of family time I guess was too much. going back to work/school routine helps either put things in perspective, or push them away on the back burner - cannot decide which one. He has been husband of the year for the last two days. It was me snapping for a change. But I think I got it now. at least for now.

Sometimes you just need to roll in your own misery for few days until you can not take it anymore and decide to get up and keep going. once in a while it is cathartic.

I appreciate all you inputs more than you can know. This is all part of the process, the journey towards finding the right solution.


----------



## WandaJ

Blossom Leigh said:


> The book You Don't Have to Take it Anymore addresses exactly want Anon is saying ... I highly recommend it and support what Anon is sharing.
> 
> The book Boundaries is great too.


thanks Blossom, I will check them out.

BTW: your link Blossom road to recovery does not work. I was really excited to read it


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## WandaJ

farsidejunky said:


> Rationalization, my lady. You just made my point for me by illustrating that in fact it is not one thing but another that is more important than your marriage.
> 
> Hypothetically, what if your choices were to maintain your income yet lose your family, or take a chance on making your marriage good again at the risk of your income?
> 
> This may become more than a hypothetical...


As I stated before, my heart is not in my marriage anymore. Income is necessary to pay bills. That's part of me still sticking around here, I just do not see it financially, not at least at this moment.


----------



## WandaJ

neglected42 said:


> I understand how you are feeling, although have no good advice.
> Years of mistreatment have left you broken. You have lost all feelings for your husband.
> 
> You have children......responsibilities....big ones! It is all up to you. *Your husband is changing for the better. All you need to do is feel warmly toward him.* You can then move forward, repair your marriage, make everything right.
> 
> *Except you don't feel warmly toward him, you feel empty*. So you smile when your supposed to, go through the motions. After all, you have to keep TRYING. Everyone is relying on you.
> 
> Too bad your heart, your mind cannot do what you so desperately need it too. I understand.
> 
> I wish you the best. If you ever find the magic solution to regaining the kind of feelings necessary to happily reconnect with your husband, please pass it on.
> 
> So much great advice on this website. Yet feelings are tricky. Logic, steps, goals....can a person really just think themselves out of this?


Yes, neglected. I can tell you have been there, or still are? You see him trying and you feel guilty that you are not jumping up happily anymore. You are deflated and on the remote control.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

WandaJ said:


> thanks Blossom, I will check them out.
> 
> BTW: your link Blossom road to recovery does not work. I was really excited to read it


I know Hun... I deleted it, but will build another one. Sorry its down for now.


----------



## neglected42

Wanda, I am still there. Exactly the same place you are. I think the problem is that you have been detaching for over twenty years. I know I have. Every mistreatment took a little from you. It is not that you haven't tried, he just did not bother to listen. 

If you are like me, you have probably been pretending for years. You were stuck and just did not know what to do. Yet your husband kept mistreating you. Then, one day, there was ABSOLUTELY NOTHING LEFT. That is probably when you posted this thread. 

Now, finally, your husband decides he needs to change. The problem is, he waited too long. Your guilt at not responding to this change is enormous. But when you look at him, all you see is the man you have known for over twenty years. 

It feels now, like if it does not work it is YOUR fault. He changed. Unfortunately, your brain has been trained by the previous twenty years. I am trying to remember that when the guilt feels overwhelming.

Have you tried having a calm discussion with him about separation? Perhaps coming up with a plan, with steps and goals. The plan may take time. In some situations, working in the best interest of the kids and trying to keep finances in check, can take time and very careful planning.

I have tried having this conversation with my husband numerous times. Sometimes we seem to make progress. Then the next day, he buys me flowers and acts like nothing happened. I am planting the ideas though. Trying to get him to see how this can be done in a fashion that will reduce the trauma on the kids and us.


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## Blossom Leigh

great voice neglected...

I agree with you that WandaJ needs to be forgiving of herself for not being about to "shift on a dime" in her emotions. Realistically, so much had been done that to expect her to shift so suddenly can be unrealistic. If you don't shift fast WandaJ that's ok and very normal. Take that pressure of fast turn around off of yourself. Accept better from your H, but be gracious to yourself for how you feel today. The only thing I will add is that not being able to shift right now even with better choices by your husband doesn't mean you won't shift later. But if you find you cannot shift at all over a period of time under better choices by your husband then reach out for additional help and if it's not possible it's just not possible. And that is ok.


----------



## Anon1111

neglected42 said:


> Wanda, I am still there. Exactly the same place you are. I think the problem is that you have been detaching for over twenty years. I know I have. Every mistreatment took a little from you. It is not that you haven't tried, he just did not bother to listen.
> 
> If you are like me, you have probably been pretending for years. You were stuck and just did not know what to do. Yet your husband kept mistreating you. Then, one day, there was ABSOLUTELY NOTHING LEFT. That is probably when you posted this thread.
> 
> Now, finally, your husband decides he needs to change. The problem is, he waited too long. Your guilt at not responding to this change is enormous. But when you look at him, all you see is the man you have known for over twenty years.
> 
> It feels now, like if it does not work it is YOUR fault. He changed. Unfortunately, your brain has been trained by the previous twenty years. I am trying to remember that when the guilt feels overwhelming.
> 
> Have you tried having a calm discussion with him about separation? Perhaps coming up with a plan, with steps and goals. The plan may take time. In some situations, working in the best interest of the kids and trying to keep finances in check, can take time and very careful planning.
> 
> I have tried having this conversation with my husband numerous times. Sometimes we seem to make progress. Then the next day, he buys me flowers and acts like nothing happened. I am planting the ideas though. Trying to get him to see how this can be done in a fashion that will reduce the trauma on the kids and us.


I do think that if your husband has truly changed and become the kind of person he should be (and maybe you always wanted him to be) and you can't accept that, then that is on you.

To me that is allowing your personal resentment to prevent you from having a fulfilling relationship with a good man.

I am sure it does not feel like it is something you can control.

But I believe that you can control and master resentment. It just takes a LOT of work and self discipline. And time.

If he has truly changed, then what happened is in the past. You can choose to live in the past or you can move on.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Anon1111 said:


> I do think that if your husband has truly changed and become the kind of person he should be (and maybe you always wanted him to be) and you can't accept that, then that is on you.
> 
> To me that is allowing your personal resentment to prevent you from having a fulfilling relationship with a good man.
> 
> I am sure it does not feel like it is something you can control.
> 
> But I believe that you can control and master resentment. It just takes a LOT of work and self discipline. And time.
> 
> If he has truly changed, then what happened is in the past. You can choose to live in the past or you can move on.


Anon, have you been in a situation like Wanda's? It isnt that easy. Resentment can hit a point where it has killed your feelings. You can tell yourself all day long that the past is the past, that he really has changed, that it will be better...but once feelings are dead, you usually cannot sweet talk them into coming back to life. I've been there. (And I really question the indication that her H is a "good man".) 

Wanda is done. She can beat this dead horse six ways to Sunday, it isnt going to matter. She is still in this due to her sense of commitment and due to financial reasons. But she is done. I have been saying so since the beginning. Its a tough thing to face, especially when so many others keep telling you that you just need to keep trying.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I have personally experienced feelings coming back to life after huge resentment twice, once in this marriage and once in the previous marriage. A LOT depends on the guy's choices, but also her ability to accept and trust. 

In my current situation I accept his changes and trust God. If it weren't for my faith and seeing the hand of God at work in the here and now between the two of us I would have already been gone. But I have seen AMAZING changes this year.

Yet, at the same time 3Xno, I agree that it is not always possible for everyone.


----------



## Anon1111

It might not be worth it to you to do the personal work to let go of the resentment.

But if your partner has TRULY changed, is consistently better, then you are reacting to a MEMORY, not the present.

You cannot forget, but you can forgive.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Correct, it doesn't work if that work isn't done.


----------



## WandaJ

Anon1111 said:


> It might not be worth it to you to do the personal work to let go of the resentment.
> 
> But if your partner has TRULY changed, is consistently better, then you are reacting to a MEMORY, not the present.
> 
> You cannot forget, but you can forgive.


and not forgetting is what may make the return of connection impossible. you get train after twenty years not to trust anymore, not to open yourself completely anymore. you did it before, and got burnt so many times.


----------



## WandaJ

Anon1111 said:


> I do think that if your husband has truly changed and become the kind of person he should be (and maybe you always wanted him to be) and you can't accept that, then that is on you.
> 
> To me that is allowing your personal resentment to prevent you from having a fulfilling relationship with a good man.
> 
> I am sure it does not feel like it is something you can control.
> 
> But I believe that you can control and master resentment. It just takes a LOT of work and self discipline. And time.
> 
> If he has truly changed, then what happened is in the past. You can choose to live in the past or you can move on.


I think this also depends on what caused the resentments. If it lack of affection, not enough sex, not enough affection, not enough help around the house - but the basics - mutual respect was still there, it might work. But if there was mistreatment, verbal or physical abuse, lack of respects, unreasonable demands - things that kill your soul - this is much harder.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

WandaJ said:


> I think this also depends on what caused the resentments. If it lack of affection, not enough sex, not enough affection, not enough help around the house - but the basics - mutual respect was still there, it might work. But if there was mistreatment, verbal or physical abuse, lack of respects, unreasonable demands - things that kill your soul - this is much harder.


Yes it is and takes a totally different approach in my opinion. This is the road I have walked. I got tough as nails about no longer accepting that kind of destructive behavior and that coupled with his work with our church has made DRASTIC changes.


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## neglected42

Anon, I understand what you are saying. If her husband has truly changed then she should be able to forgive, and she is reacting to memory, not her new reality. 

That being said, to forgive someone and let go of resentment is not the same as feeling love for someone. She needs to love her husband again, not just forgive him.

We cannot control our ability to feel love. If we could do that we could just make sure we fall in love with the most logical choice of life partners. We would all make excellent choices, and the divorce rate would be much lower. Love has nothing to do with logic.

Love starts out chemical. As time moves along our bodies adjust and regulate all those hormones and love becomes behaviourally driven. At the most basic, respect and safety HAVE to be present.

They can do an MRI on people and can tell if they love their spouse. They show a person a picture of their spouse, if the areas of the brain that feel emotions related to love conduct electricity (such as respect, admiration, closeness), then you are in love. If those areas of the brain do not conduct electricity, you are not.

Wanda and I are experiencing the same problem. We do not feel good when our husbands are around. We do not feel safety and comfort in their arms. Those pathways in our brain have not been used in a very long time, and much like a bike trail have grown over and passage is difficult.

The problem is our environment has wired our brains. Our environment was our husband. Through neglect, intimidation, bullying, yelling, etc, the wrong pathways have been reinforced for over twenty years. These pathways lead to bad feelings, anxiety,....dark places. Our husbands cause an electrical and hormonal cascade in us that is quite the opposite of what should be going on to snuggle up and feel safe with them.

Over twenty years later, they decide they are going to change because we have one foot out the door. Now we need our brains to rewire. We need to open up those unused pathways (for god's sake......synapse!!) and we need to shut down those ones that have been firing over and over again for twenty years.

There are a couple problems with this. It is much harder to unlearn than it is to learn, (and at our age, both are more difficult than if we were younger). The negative pathways have been firing for over twenty years. If her situation is anything like mine the negative pathways have been increasing over time, and the positive ones decreasing. Now, here we are, our brain wiring and physiological responses to our husbands well engrained. 

Is it possible to undo all this? How much time of changed behaviour is required? I so understand how you feel Wanda. You feel like you are failing everyone, yet you feel helpless because you can't seem to change the way you feel.


----------



## A_DelVeccio

WandaJ said:


> Is it possible to feel the need of intimacy to your husband again?


Yes it is possible! You need to fall in love again. You still love him but your fire has been stomped out with all the resentment. You need to write down on a piece of paper all the things you resent and blame him for. Then on another piece of paper write down Pros and Cons. Get it all out and cry if you need to. Then remember you WANT it to come back... then reread your pros, over and over if you have to. 

Start up the fire pit and say those resentments aloud followed by "I forgive you, I release this, I give it to God so I can let go". Once you are done... burn them

You need to heal, you need to let go... THEN.. you can start to light your own fire again.


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## neglected42

What if the con side is huge and horrible. What if the pro side is small and weak. Again, this is biology. You cannot rewire your brain by writing a few things down and then burning them.


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## Anon1111

Hey neglected42, I get it. I don't really feel a lot of positive feelings in my situation. It's different from yours but in some ways the same.

The thing is, if I really believed that there was no way to get over it, then at that point there is really only one logical choice-- get out.

If you're at that point, that's totally understandable. What is not understandable to me is saying you can't get past it but you won't do anything about it.


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## neglected42

I know, and trust me, I am frustrated with myself too!


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## Regretf

neglected42 said:


> What if the con side is huge and horrible. What if the pro side is small and weak. Again, this is biology. You cannot rewire your brain by writing a few things down and then burning them.


I have read your thread and you are absolutely right, witrh the behaviour of your husband and his unwilingness to change i feel there's Little you can do-.

Going thru a divorce myself i will always tell people that unless there's physical, emotional abuse, cheating, alcohol or drug abuse to the point where it's unfixable or maybe 20 years of the same, that most issues at least deserve to be worked on, to at least try with all your heart to see if there's anything you camn do, if after you have tried there's nothing to be done, then walk out.


----------



## WandaJ

So here is a little update on the situation. Couple of you said to give it three months to see if changes are permanent, so I have waited. I was tempted now and then to write but I am glad I did not, as things kept fluctuating. 

Overall, there have been HUGE improvement. With one or two small lapses, there were no majore arguments. Beginning were little bumpy, him trying and feeling that he's been judged on every word, and me judging his every word and gesture. Then we went through two very good weeks, when things were they way I would absolutely love to have in relationship - respectful communications, no crude joking at each other expense, etc. I had felt like I was in a brand new relationship. For me that was the best. If it stayed this way, I would be in love again. For him I believe, this was too much. Too sweet. After that we have moved to another level, where it seems we found somehow balance, and this is where we are at right now. The sex life is good. 

Is it perfect? No, but it's the best we can do. As woundedwarrior said in his thread about detachment, paraphrasing, - "Life is much easier, but the magic is gone" . We do spend more time together, trying to show each other attention, affection. Life is much easier, much more peaceful, no more constant headache, stress, etc. Some days are awesome, other days you just keep your mouth shut to get through without going back to old times. We both have a lot of resentments, and they are still brewing under surface, doesn't take much to wake them up. But we both trying not to let them control us anymore. Our languages of love seem to be exact opposite, so that's tricky. 

so, things are easier, but it does feel very lonely sometimes. There are parts of me that will never open up again to him. It is pretty sad realization, that opening up fully to someone is not an option anymore. We did few dates, and they were nice, but we avoided talking too much about us. He seems lukewarm on those dates, like he cannot find himself to be in the dating situation, when you have to behave nicely, be one on one.


Now, after twenty years I do know, that our personalities are in constant clash. He will always be a man who likes things his way, and will be pushing to get his way, and I always will have to face it. I am easy going and low maintance. He is high maintence and proud of it. I would like to make decisions together, not to start with his preference and go from there, trying to swing it to me. There are situation, when he completetly disregards my requests, treating it as nagging, about things that should be easy and non-issue. I guess we all read about it in WAW posts.

I do not think he has bipolar, but he certainly has many of the characteristics. Now I can see that it wasn't me always who was afraid of being too close, screwing things up at the best moment. it was him, and still is. That's why the crude joking (too much, too much swearing) , getting antsy right when things are going great. 

Would I feel more free without him? yes. Is it enough to split the family? no. Not if things stay the way they are - kids are much happier now, we are less stressed, finances are in order. To put kids through divorce, shutting down family business, risking heavy financial distress for everybody - I cannot do this. If it goes back to what was just few months ago - that would be different story.


----------



## Uptown

Wanda, thanks for giving us an update on your family's situation. I am very happy for you that your H's behavior has improved substantially. Like you, I am hopeful it will stay that way and not regress. It seems that your H is really trying to save your marriage, despite his limitations.


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## meson

WandaJ said:


> Overall, there have been HUGE improvement. With one or two small lapses, there were no majore arguments. Beginning were little bumpy, him trying and feeling that he's been judged on every word, and me judging his every word and gesture. Then we went through two very good weeks, when things were they way I would absolutely love to have in relationship - respectful communications, no crude joking at each other expense, etc. I had felt like I was in a brand new relationship. For me that was the best. If it stayed this way, I would be in love again. For him I believe, this was too much. Too sweet. After that we have moved to another level, where it seems we found somehow balance, and this is where we are at right now. The sex life is good.


I'm glad that things have improved for you. I hope they continue to improve and make for a better life.



WandaJ said:


> Is it perfect? No, but it's the best we can do. As woundedwarrior said in his thread about detachment, paraphrasing, - "Life is much easier, but the magic is gone" . We do spend more time together, trying to show each other attention, affection. Life is much easier, much more peaceful, no more constant headache, stress, etc. Some days are awesome, other days you just keep your mouth shut to get through without going back to old times. We both have a lot of resentments, and they are still brewing under surface, doesn't take much to wake them up. But we both trying not to let them control us anymore. Our languages of love seem to be exact opposite, so that's tricky.


The question is do you want to fall in love with him again? You told me six months ago that you didn't want to fall in love with him again. Is this still true? 



WandaJ said:


> so, things are easier, but it does feel very lonely sometimes. There are parts of me that will never open up again to him. It is pretty sad realization, that opening up fully to someone is not an option anymore. We did few dates, and they were nice, but we avoided talking too much about us. He seems lukewarm on those dates, like he cannot find himself to be in the dating situation, when you have to behave nicely, be one on one.


Unless you are desiring to fall in love with him again this lonelyness will turn to emptiness. So look deep within you. If you were single now would you could you fall in love with him?





WandaJ said:


> *Would I feel more free without him? yes.* Is it enough to split the family? no. Not if things stay the way they are - kids are much happier now, we are less stressed, finances are in order. To put kids through divorce, shutting down family business, risking heavy financial distress for everybody - I cannot do this. If it goes back to what was just few months ago - that would be different story.


This sounds a lot like you are settling. Resigning to this will ultimately build up the resentments and bring back the issues you have reduced with a lot of work. Ultimately you will come to another decision point years down the road. If you now think you can fall in love with him and indeed want to then all is good and you are moving in the right direction. So it all depends on your desire to love.

If I were your husband and my wife didn't love me and didn't want to try to love me then I would appreciate knowing sooner than later so that life wouldn't be wasted.


----------



## WandaJ

meson, I am not sure. for a while I thought we might fall in love again. But now slowly I am coming to conclusion it will be hard. He is too set in his ways, and now I start seeing that it is him not wanting to get too close. I was surprised myself that I was ready to invest in this relationship again. Now I feel like he is not opening as much. And now, twenty years older and wiser, I can see that our personalities are not compatible on many levels. 
I think this is not just me not being sure how this will play out. he is too. At this moment we both are trying. We still have a lot to deal with, we still have not have good frank conversation. I gave him LL and Love Busters to read, he still did not read them. 
Chances are this will not work in the long run. But it is not just me, he seems to be on the face too, at least in critical moments. I agree, I think we both are still avoiding facing our problems fully, we have settled on the "good enough" for now.


----------



## aine

WandaJ said:


> meson, I am not sure. for a while I thought we might fall in love again. But now slowly I am coming to conclusion it will be hard. He is too set in his ways, and now I start seeing that it is him not wanting to get too close. I was surprised myself that I was ready to invest in this relationship again. Now I feel like he is not opening as much. And now, twenty years older and wiser, I can see that our personalities are not compatible on many levels.
> I think this is not just me not being sure how this will play out. he is too. At this moment we both are trying. We still have a lot to deal with, we still have not have good frank conversation. I gave him LL and Love Busters to read, he still did not read them.
> Chances are this will not work in the long run. But it is not just me, he seems to be on the face too, at least in critical moments. I agree, I think we both are still avoiding facing our problems fully, we have settled on the "good enough" for now.


He asked you to go to MC away back, now that things are settled and not so raw for you both, would you consider MC. Sometimes you need someone to guide you through the problems that are underneath so that they can be brought out into the open and dealt with one by one.


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## WandaJ

I am not sure. One thing is logistics - he is back home on weekdays around 8 pm. I sometimes thing he is s.. testing me and himself. When it was obvious I wasn't interested and was completely detached, he was showing insterest in counseling. Now, when I am available, he is not that interested anymore. The more I think about all this, the more I am convinced that Uptown and other were right - he talks about being close emotionally, and wanting this connection, but he will sabotage it whenever it gets too close. But for twenty years made me believe I was queen of ice in this regards.


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## Uptown

WandaJ said:


> The more I think about all this, the more I am convinced that Uptown and other were right - he talks about being close emotionally, and wanting this connection, but he will sabotage it whenever it gets too close.


Wanda, for what it's worth, he probably is not sabotaging it deliberately or _consciously_. If he has strong BPD traits as you suspect, his subconscious is working 24/7 to protect his fragile ego from seeing too much of reality. Like nearly every other adult, BPDers generally CRAVE intimacy. But they quickly find it to be very uncomfortable, if not frightening, when they get it for very long. 

When you trigger a BPDer's engulfment fear by being intimate, he will get a suffocating scary feeling that his mind projects onto you. Because that projection occurs entirely at the subconscious level, his conscious mind will be absolutely convinced that -- yet again -- you've done something to offend, control, or disrespect him. That is, he is sure his hurtful feelings are originating with YOU. In this way, a BPDer craves intimacy even though it triggers one of his two greatest fears.

I know, I know -- _craving _what you _most fear_ is such a paradox that it is difficult to comprehend. But we can often gain some understanding of paradoxes by finding a poetic reference to them using terms and concepts we already understand. About 7 years ago, an ex-partner (of a BPDer) provided a poetic description I found very helpful. He wrote,_"When a BPDer talks about intimacy, it's like a vampire talking about sunrise: every one of them desperately wants to see a sunrise, but they are frightened to do so because it means death if they do."_​The paradox actually makes perfect sense, however, when we consider the BPDer's dilemma -- always having to choose between two evils: moving closer and triggering his fear of engulfment or moving away and triggering his fear of abandonment. The conundrum, of course, is that the solution for one fear is the very thing triggering the other fear. Hence, because a BPDer's two great fears lie at the opposite ends of the very same spectrum, he repeatedly finds himself in a lose-lose situation. 

Or, rather, I should say he "nearly always" is confronted with that conundrum because it does vanish completely for a few glorious, precious months at the outset of nearly every romantic relationship. During that courtship period, the BPDer's infatuation holds his two fears at bay because he is absolutely convinced he's met his soul mate -- a woman who poses no threat to his fears. But, sadly, those fears quickly return when his infatuation evaporates.


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## turnera

WandaJ said:


> I told him that I want to leave for the weekend all by myself, to think it through, because i do not want to be called names like this ever again. and I did go. I can tell he started trying after this


Apparently not that hard, since he just called you STUPID.


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## turnera

WandaJ said:


> When it was obvious I wasn't interested and was completely detached, he was showing interest in counseling. Now, when I am available, he is not that interested anymore.


This is why we keep telling you that he will NOT change until he realizes he will LOSE you if he doesn't. It's human nature.


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## MEM2020

Seems that the catalyst for the recent improvement was Wanda directly saying she wanted a divorce. 

She's done a good job of improving the marriage so far. 




turnera said:


> This is why we keep telling you that he will NOT change until he realizes he will LOSE you if he doesn't. It's human nature.


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## turnera

We'll see if she will sustain it. Most women don't.


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## aine

WandaJ said:


> I am not sure. One thing is logistics - he is back home on weekdays around 8 pm. I sometimes thing he is s.. testing me and himself. When it was obvious I wasn't interested and was completely detached, he was showing insterest in counseling. Now, when I am available, he is not that interested anymore. The more I think about all this, the more I am convinced that Uptown and other were right - he talks about being close emotionally, and wanting this connection, but he will sabotage it whenever it gets too close. But for twenty years made me believe I was queen of ice in this regards.


Or could be be testing you to see how much you really want to make things work. If he has a big ego it is possible? You could tell him that MC would make things even better and although you are willing to work on it, satisficing is just not enough if you are going to live the rest of your lives together and he owes it to himself and the marriage.


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## Keenwa

WandaJ I 'm a few months ahead of you on a similar continuum. I can say that after having gotten better,... after awhile now I am beginning to feel antsy again... it's just not enough to have an "Ok" relationship ... sure kids are happier but happier than what? Happier than when we were completely disconnected? sure. of course. That is completely logical. 

Do our kids get to witness a happy, connected and intimate relationship? no. I still stay up late avoiding my H because he bores me to tears.. he's a "GREAT GUY", he's kind, considerate, and because he is not a wife beater or an adulterer I should just accept this a being wonderful. I don't know. I"m not sure I can prescribe to that kind of a life and not sure I want my kids to live like that either. I waffle back and forth and am stuck in a pattern of guilt. Guilty because I want to leave this perfectly normal, perfectly status quo, perfectly bloody boring relationship and life. I guess people might think I'm selfish..I'm starting to think I don't really care. Life is about experience, it's not about settling for the best we can do. But then again I guess everyone has a different perspective. I'm not a religious type so I don't believe God has the answer or that there is a divine reason for anything. I think we live and breathe, and we do the best we can everyday. There are no wrong answers, there are no right answers either. 

If we are acting out of authenticity and not something else then it can only be good. Acting out of duty, agency... is not so great.

Hope you find the right path for your life and your kids. 





WandaJ said:


> So here is a little update on the situation. Couple of you said to give it three months to see if changes are permanent, so I have waited. I was tempted now and then to write but I am glad I did not, as things kept fluctuating.
> 
> Overall, there have been HUGE improvement. With one or two small lapses, there were no majore arguments. Beginning were little bumpy, him trying and feeling that he's been judged on every word, and me judging his every word and gesture. Then we went through two very good weeks, when things were they way I would absolutely love to have in relationship - respectful communications, no crude joking at each other expense, etc. I had felt like I was in a brand new relationship. For me that was the best. If it stayed this way, I would be in love again. For him I believe, this was too much. Too sweet. After that we have moved to another level, where it seems we found somehow balance, and this is where we are at right now. The sex life is good.
> 
> Is it perfect? No, but it's the best we can do. As woundedwarrior said in his thread about detachment, paraphrasing, - "Life is much easier, but the magic is gone" . We do spend more time together, trying to show each other attention, affection. Life is much easier, much more peaceful, no more constant headache, stress, etc. Some days are awesome, other days you just keep your mouth shut to get through without going back to old times. We both have a lot of resentments, and they are still brewing under surface, doesn't take much to wake them up. But we both trying not to let them control us anymore. Our languages of love seem to be exact opposite, so that's tricky.
> 
> so, things are easier, but it does feel very lonely sometimes. There are parts of me that will never open up again to him. It is pretty sad realization, that opening up fully to someone is not an option anymore. We did few dates, and they were nice, but we avoided talking too much about us. He seems lukewarm on those dates, like he cannot find himself to be in the dating situation, when you have to behave nicely, be one on one.
> 
> 
> Now, after twenty years I do know, that our personalities are in constant clash. He will always be a man who likes things his way, and will be pushing to get his way, and I always will have to face it. I am easy going and low maintance. He is high maintence and proud of it. I would like to make decisions together, not to start with his preference and go from there, trying to swing it to me. There are situation, when he completetly disregards my requests, treating it as nagging, about things that should be easy and non-issue. I guess we all read about it in WAW posts.
> 
> I do not think he has bipolar, but he certainly has many of the characteristics. Now I can see that it wasn't me always who was afraid of being too close, screwing things up at the best moment. it was him, and still is. That's why the crude joking (too much, too much swearing) , getting antsy right when things are going great.
> 
> Would I feel more free without him? yes. Is it enough to split the family? no. Not if things stay the way they are - kids are much happier now, we are less stressed, finances are in order. To put kids through divorce, shutting down family business, risking heavy financial distress for everybody - I cannot do this. If it goes back to what was just few months ago - that would be different story.


----------



## WandaJ

Uptown said:


> [/INDENT]The paradox actually makes perfect sense, however, when we consider the BPDer's dilemma -- always having to choose between two evils: moving closer and triggering his fear of engulfment or moving away and triggering his fear of abandonment. The conundrum, of course, is that the solution for one fear is the very thing triggering the other fear. Hence, because a BPDer's two great fears lie at the opposite ends of the very same spectrum, he repeatedly finds himself in a lose-lose situation.
> .


Uptown, this does makes perferct sense and actually explains a lot of our dynamics. And although he might not be straight BPD, a lot of traits are there, plus high ego. He also can be very appreciative, and affectionate, and will owe his outburst once cooled down, so althogether things are not so black and white bad. 

Frankly, I am surprised that I was able to come back from detachment. I thougth this was not possible at this stage. Most of the days are good now, some are really good, once in a while something pops up, but we are trying not to let it ruin it, like what I described in my thread on general forum "Offensive or not"?


----------



## WandaJ

turnera said:


> We'll see if she will sustain it. Most women don't.


Yes, I will. But it does not mean I will be walking out the door because he said something nasty. It is a process, and thanks to commentators on this thread and others on TAM I know it takes time and it's possible. As long as I can see that general directions is improvent, we will get over it. We cannot go back to living in hell as we did just six months ago. That is not an option anymore, and we both like the new dynamic much more.


----------



## WandaJ

Keenwa, our is a little different dynamic. He is anything but boring guy. Six months ago, before things finally blew up, - yes, that's when we were avoiding each other. We were jumping to each throats all the time, so that was easier option.

Now, we do enjoy time together again - most of the time. Affection came back, and yes, kids witness it often. Are there times when I am boiling inside and fantasize about freedom, when he pissed me off, which is mostly when he starts either pouting, or wants things his way and we are going heads on about it? Yes. But it is happening less and less.

Yes, there are parts of me that are closed to him forever. There are other issues that many other couples have. Is this all worth breaking the family, getting kids through divorce, removing them from place where they already have friends and are happy? No. I am happy that they are happy now. and I am pretty content with my life at this point. What will happen in ten years, I don't know.


----------



## Keenwa

That's fantastic! I think this kind of journey either leads us down a path of saying WTF, or of clarity and reconnection. For me I am realizing that when I met H I was in a somewhat fractured state and I was looking for someone to love. The fact that he was willing to stick around for me seemed enough for me. I initiated the marriage, and everything else along the way. Got lost on the way and now am initiating the rest. He has never initiated anything and I am realizing because I was so broken when I met him that I didn't make the best choice. I am glad that my kids have a nice father, (that was a big plus for me when I met him, and I remember saying to myself that regardless of what happens he will be a loving father). My dad was a deadbeat so it was important for me to have kids who knew their father. My situation is that we don't have fun together, I don't want to spend time with him, I'd prefer to be with friends or my kids or anyone really. His dialogue is always the same. 

I'm glad that for you it's not this. It's worth working past the resentment and anger if you can reconnect. It's really hard with kids to sometimes realize what is important and what we care about. I still find myself trying to find him attractive, interesting... because truth of it is... I don't. We don't have any common interests.. mostly because he has no interests. I'd love him to have interests, anything.. doesn't matter if it's common, just something he loves to do, spend time on etc. but he' s pretty lethargic about most things. He does like to judge all kinds of things though. :scratchhead:



WandaJ said:


> Keenwa, our is a little different dynamic. He is anything but boring guy. Six months ago, before things finally blew up, - yes, that's when we were avoiding each other. We were jumping to each throats all the time, so that was easier option.
> 
> Now, we do enjoy time together again - most of the time. Affection came back, and yes, kids witness it often. Are there times when I am boiling inside and fantasize about freedom, when he pissed me off, which is mostly when he starts either pouting, or wants things his way and we are going heads on about it? Yes. But it is happening less and less.
> 
> Yes, there are parts of me that are closed to him forever. There are other issues that many other couples have. Is this all worth breaking the family, getting kids through divorce, removing them from place where they already have friends and are happy? No. I am happy that they are happy now. and I am pretty content with my life at this point. What will happen in ten years, I don't know.


----------



## sammy3

I can relate so well, as anyone who would look at my life and see what I will be giving up would think I am crazy, especially at this late into the marriage. The next women he meets will be treated like a princess. 

He has learned so much, as he has "seen the light" but there is such an arrogance in the remorse too. 

I cant even think of him in any sexual way, as I would be putting myself in "her" spot w him, & I'm not going to do that.

I don't like when he wants to hug me or touch me... all the loving feeling aren't there, but yet I look at him & watch him from afar, and I miss so much who we were, and who I was, and what we had. I hate what he has done to our life. I hate how I have changed. I hate who I have become for the time being, and I want nothing more than to be myself again. 

So I dunno, I'm almost 4 years out and am shameful I am still haunted and lost by this all.. Almost 4 freaking years... ((sigh)) 

~sammy


----------



## WandaJ

Keenwa said:


> That's fantastic! I think this kind of journey either leads us down a path of saying WTF, or of clarity and reconnection. For me I am realizing that when I met H I was in a somewhat fractured state and I was looking for someone to love. The fact that he was willing to stick around for me seemed enough for me. I initiated the marriage, and everything else along the way. Got lost on the way and now am initiating the rest. He has never initiated anything and I am realizing because I was so broken when I met him that I didn't make the best choice. I am glad that my kids have a nice father, (that was a big plus for me when I met him, and I remember saying to myself that regardless of what happens he will be a loving father). My dad was a deadbeat so it was important for me to have kids who knew their father. My situation is that we don't have fun together, I don't want to spend time with him, I'd prefer to be with friends or my kids or anyone really. His dialogue is always the same.
> 
> I'm glad that for you it's not this. It's worth working past the resentment and anger if you can reconnect. It's really hard with kids to sometimes realize what is important and what we care about. I still find myself trying to find him attractive, interesting... because truth of it is... I don't. We don't have any common interests.. mostly because he has no interests. I'd love him to have interests, anything.. doesn't matter if it's common, just something he loves to do, spend time on etc. but he' s pretty lethargic about most things. He does like to judge all kinds of things though. :scratchhead:


Keenwa, it looks like your hubby would benefit a little from doing 180 - if he could take care of himself, make himself more independent and attractive. Do you think there is a chance of it?


----------



## WandaJ

sammy3 said:


> I can relate so well, as anyone who would look at my life and see what I will be giving up would think I am crazy, especially at this late into the marriage. The next women he meets will be treated like a princess.
> 
> He has learned so much, as he has "seen the light" but there is such an arrogance in the remorse too.
> 
> I cant even think of him in any sexual way, as I would be putting myself in "her" spot w him, & I'm not going to do that.
> 
> I don't like when he wants to hug me or touch me... all the loving feeling aren't there, but yet I look at him & watch him from afar, and I miss so much who we were, and who I was, and what we had. I hate what he has done to our life. I hate how I have changed. I hate who I have become for the time being, and I want nothing more than to be myself again.
> 
> So I dunno, I'm almost 4 years out and am shameful I am still haunted and lost by this all.. Almost 4 freaking years... ((sigh))
> 
> ~sammy


summy, by your years out you mean you have detached for that long? because your first sentence indicates you are still in that marriage. 

I have been detached for probably more than four years, and I think spent last two in more like 'hate" mode. I am surprised myself that I am now, where I am. There are moments when I have enough and dream of freedom, but it passes and we find our footing again. I do realize he cannot change completely, and that there is certain arrogance to him, that sometimes stands in our way. This is what worries me most for the future - he eventually will overcome the name calling and other obviously nasty things like this., but the character , if we both do not keep check on it, may derail us.


----------



## WandaJ

Uptown said:


> _"When a BPDer talks about intimacy, it's like a vampire talking about sunrise: every one of them desperately wants to see a sunrise, but they are frightened to do so because it means death if they do."_​The paradox actually makes perfect sense, however, when we consider the BPDer's dilemma -- always having to choose between two evils: moving closer and triggering his fear of engulfment or moving away and triggering his fear of abandonment. The conundrum, of course, is that the solution for one fear is the very thing triggering the other fear. Hence, because a BPDer's two great fears lie at the opposite ends of the very same spectrum, he repeatedly finds himself in a lose-lose situation.
> .



Uptown, I have thought a lot about your last post and I think this would finally explain to me our sex life. It is good in general, but I was always the more adventures one, and more open. I could not figure out why he sometimes keeps such "cool" attitude (and is not becauae of being prude). He seemed to be chilling out whenever things would get too intense, and hence too intimate. Whenever we did something different, and I really enjoyed, and I know it was not torture for him, - you would think we should be doing this all the time; but not, we NEVER repeated it. He made me feel more than once that's I am too focused on sex, while at other times complaining of not enough. 

so, when I look at this trhough this perspective, that too intense sex requires too much intimacy, than all this makes much more sense.


----------



## WandaJ

Another two months later, another update. Unfortunately, not for good. It seems that he got tired of being a nice guy, the guy who does not yell and barks. The old behavior slowly creeping back in. And things were going pretty well, particularly if you consider the starting point. Sex was great. I thought that maybe we will survive the ride and beat the odds. 

And then he started back with his snarks, and slowly moving to worse. It all happened within last couple of weeks. Then apologizing and being impatient about me "holding a grudge". And I remember again how falling apart feels when he does that and it is terrible feeling. And I had great counseling session, very beneficial. She looked at me like I am an alien when I was talking hesitantly about those 'small" things he does, that hurt me, practlically feeling guilty for being so petty and oversensitive. She said: "I do not know why you call these things small, they are classic verbal abuse". Having being told that by professional so straight had way bigger effect than reading it in books or here, even if I understood this theoretically. I guess.

After that I spent hours venting wiht few of my good life long friends. And one of them told me, when kept complaing that I do not know what to do next at this point, with kids so young, told me taht I had made this decision and I am just waiting for someone to tell me it is ok. This was a sentence that really hit home for me. I thought about it for the rest of the day, and decided that she was right, and I just have to give myself permission. Permission to let that marriage fail. Because I was really trying to hold it for kids, and it seemed working for a while. But now the thought of another ten years was crushing me. Once I gave myself permission to be more flexible about it,I feel like I am regaining balance in my life. I will be working on getting things at home and work in order, to make sure these things won't be holding me back when I am ready. 
It is harder when you share business together, you need to change your whole life, not just its personal aspect.

Last night another, biggest of the post D outburst. After putting kids to bed, I left the house. I could not look at him, and I needed place to cry and scream, and what's better than your car in the middle of the night? I ended up in Walmart, found bean bag in furniture section, found a nice hidden corner, and read TAM for an hour. Great way to spend Friday night...

It is amazing to read my own thread and see how the situation has been developing. It's like a journal. I have tried, but there are limits to how many times once can start over. I cannot change him. Anger is a big part of him, and even with improvements it is too much to deal wiht for me. I think I am now slowly starting accepting the reality that's awaiting me, that D will happen. Now I need to start planning for it. And I can breathe deeper now.


----------



## Uptown

Wanda, thanks for giving us another update. I'm so sorry to hear that the improvements you saw in his behavior this past March have started to disappear. As I noted last December, if your H has strong BPD traits, your making an accurate assessment of his progress will be far, far harder than it seems. With unstable people, it is extremely difficult to tell when they are making lasting improvements. 

The problem is that BPDers are always dramatically improving -- in the same way that smokers are seen to be always "quitting" and throwing away their "last" pack of cigarettes -- every 6 to 8 weeks. The result is that, in a BPDer relationship, our hopefulness and positive attitude -- which are real strengths in a normal adult relationship -- become liabilities because they prevent us from seeing the truth, thus keeping us stuck in a toxic relationship for many years.


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## turnera

WandaJ said:


> Last night another, biggest of the post D outburst. After putting kids to bed, I left the house. I could not look at him, and I needed place to cry and scream, and what's better than your car in the middle of the night? I ended up in Walmart, found bean bag in furniture section, found a nice hidden corner, and read TAM for an hour. Great way to spend Friday night...


You know why that WAS a great way to spend Friday night? Because you respected yourself. You had a boundary, he KNEW it and he crossed it anyway, so you enacted your consequence - you left. It feels good to be respected, even - especially - if it's you doing it. I've left the house with a knife in my hand, planning to use it. You definitely made the right choice. And it's a step toward feeling 100% valuable. Which, as you now know, will only happen when you are free of him.

Speaking of which, once you DO leave him, there's a slight chance that it will SO work him up that he'll finally hit his rock bottom, GET that help that he needs, and come out the other the person you always wanted him to be. Of course, you now know that will never happen as long as you give yourself to him; he has no reason to. Give him a reason to.


----------



## MEM2020

Wanda,
Do you have a good understanding of the short list of 'triggers' that put him in a bad mood? 

Does he understand these are 'about him' and not about you? 




WandaJ said:


> Another two months later, another update. Unfortunately, not for good. It seems that he got tired of being a nice guy, the guy who does not yell and barks. The old behavior slowly creeping back in. And things were going pretty well, particularly if you consider the starting point. Sex was great. I thought that maybe we will survive the ride and beat the odds.
> 
> And then he started back with his snarks, and slowly moving to worse. It all happened within last couple of weeks. Then apologizing and being impatient about me "holding a grudge". And I remember again how falling apart feels when he does that and it is terrible feeling. And I had great counseling session, very beneficial. She looked at me like I am an alien when I was talking hesitantly about those 'small" things he does, that hurt me, practlically feeling guilty for being so petty and oversensitive. She said: "I do not know why you call these things small, they are classic verbal abuse". Having being told that by professional so straight had way bigger effect than reading it in books or here, even if I understood this theoretically. I guess.
> 
> After that I spent hours venting wiht few of my good life long friends. And one of them told me, when kept complaing that I do not know what to do next at this point, with kids so young, told me taht I had made this decision and I am just waiting for someone to tell me it is ok. This was a sentence that really hit home for me. I thought about it for the rest of the day, and decided that she was right, and I just have to give myself permission. Permission to let that marriage fail. Because I was really trying to hold it for kids, and it seemed working for a while. But now the thought of another ten years was crushing me. Once I gave myself permission to be more flexible about it,I feel like I am regaining balance in my life. I will be working on getting things at home and work in order, to make sure these things won't be holding me back when I am ready.
> It is harder when you share business together, you need to change your whole life, not just its personal aspect.
> 
> Last night another, biggest of the post D outburst. After putting kids to bed, I left the house. I could not look at him, and I needed place to cry and scream, and what's better than your car in the middle of the night? I ended up in Walmart, found bean bag in furniture section, found a nice hidden corner, and read TAM for an hour. Great way to spend Friday night...
> 
> It is amazing to read my own thread and see how the situation has been developing. It's like a journal. I have tried, but there are limits to how many times once can start over. I cannot change him. Anger is a big part of him, and even with improvements it is too much to deal wiht for me. I think I am now slowly starting accepting the reality that's awaiting me, that D will happen. Now I need to start planning for it. And I can breathe deeper now.


----------



## WandaJ

Uptown said:


> The problem is that BPDers are always dramatically improving -- in the same way that smokers are seen to be always "quitting" and throwing away their "last" pack of cigarettes -- every 6 to 8 weeks. The result is that, in a BPDer relationship, our hopefulness and positive attitude -- which are real strengths in a normal adult relationship -- become liabilities because they prevent us from seeing the truth, thus keeping us stuck in a toxic relationship for many years.


This is so true. From husband of the year to a..le of the years, over and over again. I had talked lately to a retired psychologist who knew both of us back in college - she told me that he is the classic case of Adult Children of Alcholics. I have read about it, and many points match. Many overlap with BPD. So altogether - ACA, plus BPD traits, plus high narcistic traits, and this cannot be happy marriage.


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## WandaJ

turnera said:


> You know why that WAS a great way to spend Friday night? Because you respected yourself. You had a boundary, he KNEW it and he crossed it anyway, so you enacted your consequence - you left. It feels good to be respected, even - especially - if it's you doing it. I've left the house with a knife in my hand, planning to use it. You definitely made the right choice. And it's a step toward feeling 100% valuable. Which, as you now know, will only happen when you are free of him.
> 
> Speaking of which, once you DO leave him, there's a slight chance that it will SO work him up that he'll finally hit his rock bottom, GET that help that he needs, and come out the other the person you always wanted him to be. Of course, you now know that will never happen as long as you give yourself to him; he has no reason to. Give him a reason to.


You know turnera, I did not look at this that way, but you are right. This was good step on my part. I did try the aasertive techiniques right before that - I removed myself from the room, did not let myself get engaged in that confrontation, and it worked like red fabric on the bull. He went furious. At one point I lost my cool (unfortunatley) and yelled back just two words, with the first one starting with f, second with y.. 

Sometimes I do suspect too that in new relationship he will be different man. But it is too late for us, and accepting this makes me feel much much better.


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## WandaJ

MEM11363 said:


> Wanda,
> Do you have a good understanding of the short list of 'triggers' that put him in a bad mood?
> 
> Does he understand these are 'about him' and not about you?


I do not know this is not about me, because these things are unpredictable. Certainly my assertiveness is a trigger. Also, when he thinks he's been attacked - and me being assertive is an attack. When he is made to do something that he did not want to but has to - that was this Friday. I asked him to make one last business phone call at 8 pm, and get over with it, and that grew into that crazy outburst.


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## Mr.Fisty

Love is a drive, kinda like sex. There is a need for it to be fulfilled. Also, due to it being an addiction of a kind, we often will focus on hopes of changes, those positive signs we see.

That is how we end up in a cycle at times. Those moments of stability often keep us hooked. It is neither about focusing on the positive or negative, but the pattern involved. You have evidence of that being the case. Acceptance is hard, especially when love is involved. Love wants to be fulfilled, especially for those we are highly bonded to, drawing you back into this vicious cycle that you are in.


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## turnera

He won't be a different man. He'll put on a great front, just like he did with you, and hold back his assh*leness to hook the next one in, and once he knows he has her, he'll relax and just be himself again.


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## len51

I am married over 40 years to a woman who prefers women. We have not had intercourse for longer than either of us can remember and sleep in separate bedrooms. After we left our shared girlfriend, my wife started to pull away from me when I tried to touch or kiss her. She was making remarks about how I used to be hot but now I am overweight and balding. Even told me that if I die before her she is done with men and would have married a woman if it was legal back when we were young.

Why didn't I just pack my bags and leave? Well, one reason is that we are old and cannot support ourselves if we divorced. Plus we really do love each other on some level. I have taken care of her a few times when she was bedridden. Most recently she had a hip replacement and I took care of everything for her. She also enjoys pleasing me but sexually it was a problem.

I read an article and followed its advice and it worked for us. I set up two date nights that neither of us could ignore no matter how tired we were. There did not have to be any sex but we did have to be in bed together if only to talk. Here is the vicious cycle we can fall into. Sex produces the hormones that bond us emotionally to our partners. So if you reduce or cut out sex you are no longer producing Oxytocin, the hormone that makes you love and feel intimate with your husband. Since you do not have those feelings anymore, you avoid sex which would release Oxytocin and emotionally bond you together. 

Our date nights started off as just talking. I learned a lot about her bisexuality and how she prefers women now but sex with guys is also enjoyable. Just that if she had a choice, she would choose a woman. I learned about what parts of the sex act with a man she did not like and also what she liked. We cut out what she does not like and started having sex. 

We still have sex twice a week and our intimacy has returned. I often give her full body massages, sometimes with a happy ending and sometimes not. She no longer pulls away from my touch and things have gotten much better. Since we are having sex, Oxytocin is emotionally bonding us again and the more we feel for each other, the more we want sex.

Give it a try. Talk to him. Discuss what is bothering both of you and then work on fixing it. Often men do not like talking about feelings and women think men pick up on their moods and understand what the problem is. Nope. We are stupid. half the time I do not realize that my wife is mad at me because all she does is get quiet which I take as being tired or just not talkative. 

Start having regular sex doing to each other what you like done. The sex will flood your body with the hormones you are now lacking and that will promote intimacy. Nothing to lose by trying it. Good luck.


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## Uptown

len51 said:


> Start having regular sex doing to each other what you like done. The sex will flood your body with the hormones you are now lacking and that will promote intimacy.


What works with a healthy bisexual woman, Len, does not work with BPDers (i.e., those having strong BPD traits). If Wanda's H has strong BPD traits as she believes, she is always in a lose/lose situation with him no matter what action she takes. The problem is that a BPDer's two great fears (abandonment and engulfment) lie at the opposite ends of the _very same spectrum_. Hence, all her efforts to avoid triggering one fear unavoidably move her closer to triggering the other fear.

This dilemma means that, when she has sex with him to "promote intimacy," as you say, that intimacy triggers his great fear of engulfment, i.e., a frightening feeling of losing himself in his wife's personality and a suffocating feeling of being controlled by her. Although BPDers typically crave intimacy like nearly everyone else, they cannot tolerate it for very long because they have a very weak and fragile sense of self.

Yet, as Wanda backs away to give him breathing space, she unavoidably starts triggering his other great fear: that of abandonment. The result, of course, is that Wanda has spent the past 20 years hunting for that midpoints position where she can safely stand between "not too close" and "not too far away." Sadly, that Goldilocks position simply does not exist when your partner has strong BPD traits. I know only because I wasted 15 years looking for it myself.


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## john117

A classic example of the above. If you're not in great intimacy terms with your BPD spouse stop intimacy altogether. In no time they begin to freak out if you reject them. Yet if you play along and try to ramp up the pace the other side of the spectrum hits 

Looking at it purely from a cognitive angle (might as well get my money's worth) all I see is a computer partially taken over by a virus. There are enough resources to run daily basic stuff but the moment serious emotional processing is needed, poof.

In other words BPD is not a problem in itself as much as it is a hindrance in fixing other things gone wrong.


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## MEM2020

Wanda,
There was an escalation sequence - only you fully know what that was. 

If it's truly 100% him - you make a request - he immediately goes from calm to psycho - that's one thing. 

IME there are usually multiple steps to escalation. 

That doesn't mean I think most things are 50-50. They aren't. 



WandaJ said:


> I do not know this is not about me, because these things are unpredictable. Certainly my assertiveness is a trigger. Also, when he thinks he's been attacked - and me being assertive is an attack. When he is made to do something that he did not want to but has to - that was this Friday. I asked him to make one last business phone call at 8 pm, and get over with it, and that grew into that crazy outburst.


----------



## WandaJ

len51 said:


> Start having regular sex doing to each other what you like done. The sex will flood your body with the hormones you are now lacking and that will promote intimacy. Nothing to lose by trying it. Good luck.


len, we did that. we just went through several months of rekindled affection, when we were trying after D word. We had great sex 2-3 times a week. But in unhealthy, broken relationship good sex just extends the misery, disguises it in something beautiful for a while. i even started separate thread few weeks ago "Good sex in bad marriage" - asking that exact question: does it help or just creates an illusion? In our case it's illusion. In general sex was not our problem, we are more or less matched temperwise, although I am much more kinky than he is. 

Sex was good, things were going relatively well , and he started bringing the old behavior. There is limit to how many times I can break into thousands pieces and glue myself back together, before there will be nothing to glue anymore. 

it is like invisible fence for dogs - you get too close and you'll get zapped. And then he will whistle at you daring you to get to that fence again. And again.


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## WandaJ

Mr. Fisty, very much true, that this is vicious cycle. At this point love is probably long gone (despite short supernova period) and all is left is that vicious cycle.



Mr.Fisty said:


> Love is a drive, kinda like sex. There is a need for it to be fulfilled. Also, due to it being an addiction of a kind, we often will focus on hopes of changes, those positive signs we see.
> 
> That is how we end up in a cycle at times. Those moments of stability often keep us hooked. It is neither about focusing on the positive or negative, but the pattern involved. You have evidence of that being the case. Acceptance is hard, especially when love is involved. Love wants to be fulfilled, especially for those we are highly bonded to, drawing you back into this vicious cycle that you are in.


Turnera, you are probably right, that's the most probable scenario.



turnera said:


> He won't be a different man. He'll put on a great front, just like he did with you, and hold back his assh*leness to hook the next one in, and once he knows he has her, he'll relax and just be himself again.


----------



## WandaJ

Uptown said:


> This dilemma means that, when she has sex with him to "promote intimacy," as you say, that intimacy triggers his great fear of engulfment, i.e., a frightening feeling of losing himself in his wife's personality and a suffocating feeling of being controlled by her. Although BPDers typically crave intimacy like nearly everyone else, they cannot tolerate it for very long because they have a very weak and fragile sense of self.
> 
> Yet, as Wanda backs away to give him breathing space, she unavoidably starts triggering his other great fear: that of abandonment. The result, of course, is that Wanda has spent the past 20 years hunting for that midpoints position where she can safely stand between "not too close" and "not too far away." Sadly, that Goldilocks position simply does not exist when your partner has strong BPD traits. I know only because I wasted 15 years looking for it myself.


Yep, that's exactly how it is. It also now helps me to see why we never repeated our best sex sessions - they were so good, you would think we shoudl keep doing it over and over again? Nope. The intimacy and the bond created was just too much too handle for him.

And all those years he have been gaslighing me about my avoiding intimacy - which was after his outbursts when things were terrible. and I was buying this crap.


----------



## WandaJ

john117 said:


> A classic example of the above. If you're not in great intimacy terms with your BPD spouse stop intimacy altogether. In no time they begin to freak out if you reject them. Yet if you play along and try to ramp up the pace the other side of the spectrum hits
> 
> Looking at it purely from a cognitive angle (might as well get my money's worth) all I see is a computer partially taken over by a virus. There are enough resources to run daily basic stuff but the moment serious emotional processing is needed, poof.
> 
> In other words BPD is not a problem in itself as much as it is a hindrance in fixing other things gone wrong.


yes, it does feel that way. and after years this virus becomes just integral part of the system and computer cannot function without it anymore.


----------



## WandaJ

MEM11363 said:


> Wanda,
> There was an escalation sequence - only you fully know what that was.
> 
> If it's truly 100% him - you make a request - he immediately goes from calm to psycho - that's one thing.
> 
> IME there are usually multiple steps to escalation.
> 
> That doesn't mean I think most things are 50-50. They aren't.


oh yes, there were multiple steps. I have learnt to analyze those things rather well over the years. Still does not excuse it. Today I learnt that shortly before that escalation he had unpleasant incident in the store, and he was very proud of himself for handling it very calmly and with class. But inside he was boiling. And then I come with business request, so I basically handed him this excuse to blow up and release the tension. You would think I asked for a diamond necklace.

The thing is I DON'T CARE ANYMORE. I do not want to shrink anymore because he has an outburst. He is big guy, foot taller than me, with big voice. When he yells and gets furious, it is physically overwhelming and paralyzing, even though he does not threaten me physically. I do not want to feel this way anymore.


----------



## WandaJ

The hardest thing for me to accept right now is the realization that he does not respect me. Until now I was telling myself that this has nothing with respect, that he has no control over those oubursts, cannot help it, but he still respects me. Some of you told me on this and other threads that this is b/s and I did not believe. not completetely. But this is true. He does not respect me enough to let me have my own opinion or preference if it's interferes with his preferences. He does not respect me to give me space after those outbursts, demands that I become immediately nice and affectionate, once he apologizes. ETc, etc.

That's a bummer. But seeing it now is really helping.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

It is hard for him to trust you when he changes so frequently on how he sees you, not to mention his over inflated ego which masks his insecurities.

I suspect that he can rationalize his way through a lot of situations. He is probably great at mental gymnastics, and he has to be, in order to protect the self. The bad part of him being intelligent is that he can use it to run you into a circle without you realizing it, until you are back to square one.


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## turnera

WandaJ said:


> The hardest thing for me to accept right now is the realization that he does not respect me. Until now I was telling myself that this has nothing with respect, that he has no control over those oubursts, cannot help it, but he still respects me. Some of you told me on this and other threads that this is b/s and I did not believe. not completetely. But this is true.


I like to ask people...does he treat his boss this way? No? Then he has control. He has just made a decision that YOU are not worthy of it.


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## farsidejunky

WandaJ said:


> The hardest thing for me to accept right now is the realization that he does not respect me. Until now I was telling myself that this has nothing with respect, that he has no control over those oubursts, cannot help it, but he still respects me. Some of you told me on this and other threads that this is b/s and I did not believe. not completetely. But this is true. He does not respect me enough to let me have my own opinion or preference if it's interferes with his preferences. He does not respect me to give me space after those outbursts, demands that I become immediately nice and affectionate, once he apologizes. ETc, etc.
> 
> That's a bummer. But seeing it now is really helping.


Wanda, I don't think it is a lack of respect. I think it is more about control. 

If he controls your opinion, it is one less thing to fear. The lack of respect is an unintended consequence. 

Your hubby sounds like he fears a lot to me.


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## sammy3

I am never getting married again ...((sigh))

~sammy


----------



## Openminded

Unfortunately, permanent change is difficult and not very common. Temporary change is obviously much easier. When people promise to change, they may mean it (or not) but it's easier to backslide than to do the hard work involved. Some spouses give second and third and fourth, etc. chances but, to me, a blown second chance says things are more likely to remain the same going forward than they are to change. Sure, some people spend their lives hoping and wishing their spouse might change but that's not a very productive thing to do. You gave him another chance and it didn't work. Time for another solution.


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## WandaJ

Mr.Fisty said:


> It is hard for him to trust you when he changes so frequently on how he sees you, not to mention his over inflated ego which masks his insecurities.
> 
> I suspect that he can rationalize his way through a lot of situations. He is probably great at mental gymnastics, and he has to be, in order to protect the self. The bad part of him being intelligent is that he can use it to run you into a circle without you realizing it, until you are back to square one.


Mr. Fisty, this is so spot on. He is a master of mental gymnastics.



farsidejunky said:


> Wanda, I don't think it is a lack of respect. I think it is more about control.
> 
> If he controls your opinion, it is one less thing to fear. The lack of respect is an unintended consequence.
> 
> Your hubby sounds like he fears a lot to me.


Farsi, that;s probably right. too unfortunate. He has a lot of fears. Complex of inferiority and superiority combined in one.


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## WandaJ

Openminded said:


> Unfortunately, permanent change is difficult and not very common. Temporary change is obviously much easier. When people promise to change, they may mean it (or not) but it's easier to backslide than to do the hard work involved. Some spouses give second and third and fourth, etc. chances but, to me, a blown second chance says things are more likely to remain the same going forward than they are to change. Sure, some people spend their lives hoping and wishing their spouse might change but that's not a very productive thing to do. You gave him another chance and it didn't work. *Time for another solution*.


I think this idea starts slowly growing on me. What seemed unthinkable just few months ago - even at the beginning of this thread when things were horrible - is starts looking more like possible reality. I am looking towards the future , and I do not see him in there, I do not see getting old with him. I am looking at my two girls and I can see that they are already growing up in conflict, and this is what becomes comfortable for them. it is not too late to change them. I do not want them to repeat the pattern in their lives, live with someone who mistreats them, or be the one who mistreats (older DD has similar character to daddy, it's tough one to handle properly). 

So, my plan is around two years to put all my ducks in a row. At home and at business. I need to plan for it, make sure this is not financial disaster for all of us. I would love amicable divorce, but I have doubts about him. Although sometimes he does suprise me. 
And things may happen sooner than planned, I have to think about it too, we may not be able to carry on that long, if the deterioration continues.


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## autopilot

WandaJ said:


> The hardest thing for me to accept right now is the realization that he does not respect me. Until now I was telling myself that this has nothing with respect, that he has no control over those oubursts, cannot help it, but he still respects me. Some of you told me on this and other threads that this is b/s and I did not believe. not completetely. But this is true. He does not respect me enough to let me have my own opinion or preference if it's interferes with his preferences. He does not respect me to give me space after those outbursts, demands that I become immediately nice and affectionate, once he apologizes. ETc, etc.


WandaJ,

No respect for you is actually no respect for himself. He takes out his lack of self-worth on you because he can and thinks it's ok. Remember that love is an action more than a feeling. The truest form of love is how you behave towards someone, not how you feel about them.

I wrote a long diatribe on your previous thread about sex in a troubled marriage that I won't repeat here. But, he has classic narcissistic behavior.

Don't buy his b/s. Your last sentence about demanding that you become nice just puts an exclamation point on the fact that IT'S ALL ABOUT HIM!

Been there, done that and I feel your pain. The getting out is a whole lot less painless than what you think and exponentially less than what you've been through these many years.

Don't threaten to leave, but leave (not necessarily file for divorce at first). He will freak out, but then you will see if he has it in him to change. Don't give in to any of his groveling (because he will do it and try to make you feel sorry for him). Only when you see real and sustained change in his character should you make a change of course back to him (if you can do that).


----------



## WandaJ

autopilot said:


> WandaJ,
> 
> No respect for you is actually no respect for himself. He takes out his lack of self-worth on you because he can and thinks it's ok. Remember that love is an action more than a feeling. The truest form of love is how you behave towards someone, not how you feel about them.
> 
> I wrote a long diatribe on your previous thread about sex in a troubled marriage that I won't repeat here. But, he has classic narcissistic behavior.
> 
> Don't buy his b/s. Your last sentence about demanding that you become nice just puts an exclamation point on the fact that IT'S ALL ABOUT HIM!
> 
> Been there, done that and I feel your pain. The getting out is a whole lot less painless than what you think and exponentially less than what you've been through these many years.
> 
> Don't threaten to leave, but leave (not necessarily file for divorce at first). He will freak out, but then you will see if he has it in him to change. Don't give in to any of his groveling (because he will do it and try to make you feel sorry for him). Only when you see real and sustained change in his character should you make a change of course back to him (if you can do that).


Thanks autopilot for the other post, it was spot on. amazing.

I do not think I believe in permanent change anymore. We just tried, it worked for few months, not back to old habits. Maybe is not as bad as it used to be, but still this is not nice, relaxed marraige. I am getting tired of this. and what you wrote about influence on children, really hit the spot. This is becoming a problem for me.

Since last Friday which I spent in Starbucks and Walmart, i think I have slowly started detaching. I was very efficient at work, at home, got a lot of done. It feels like I am focusing on what is importatnt to me, and trying to work my way there.


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## WandaJ

autopilot said:


> WandaJ,
> 
> *Remember that love is an action more than a feeling. The truest form of love is how you behave towards someone, not how you feel about them.*
> 
> .


This is brilliant!


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## WandaJ

Time for some update:

Things actually turned around. After that last screaming event , something broke in me. He was trying to make up and could not understand why I was holding grudge for so long. That's when I told him (it was sometimes in September), that I can not do it anymore, I am done. That's when it really hit him, that this was happening for real. Next day he asked me if I am open to marriage counseling. I said, 'sure, we have kids". He found therapist and scheduled us for EFt (Emotionally Focused Therapy) for same week. 

We did two or three months of counseling. it was sometimes horrible, he was fighting his figths the same way he would at home, which gave therapist good look into our dynamics. But after exploding, and arguing, he usually comes around, and is able to accept the point. But all these expolosive sessions seemed to clear the air a little bit. We started going for a drink afterwards, and were able to talk things through more calmly, sharing the mutual feeling of being emotionally deflated. The counseling helped finally to get through to him in regards how I feel when he starts yelling or barking, etc. One day he said, "this part is over" and so far, he kept his word. 

Then we stopped counseling, when at one session counselor did something she should not have, but we keep the day and time with babysitter, and use it for our weekly dates. We have nice, pleasant life now, but it will take a while for me to come back emotionally. When we tried the first time, after my first "D" word, I was much hopeful, and excited. Now, after being burnt, I am still closed emotionally. He tries once in a while to get some kind of declaration from me, but I am not able to give it to him right now. We are taking small steps and see how will this go.


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## ConanHub

It will never fully work if you insist he work on his issues while lying to him about your own for the rest of your lives.

I understand your hesitation but you are trying to control and manipulate the result you want.

It will not work long term.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh

WandaJ said:


> Time for some update:
> 
> Things actually turned around. After that last screaming event , something broke in me. He was trying to make up and could not understand why I was holding grudge for so long. That's when I told him (it was sometimes in September), that I can not do it anymore, I am done. That's when it really hit him, that this was happening for real. Next day he asked me if I am open to marriage counseling. I said, 'sure, we have kids". He found therapist and scheduled us for EFt (Emotionally Focused Therapy) for same week.
> 
> We did two or three months of counseling. it was sometimes horrible, he was fighting his figths the same way he would at home, which gave therapist good look into our dynamics. But after exploding, and arguing, he usually comes around, and is able to accept the point. But all these expolosive sessions seemed to clear the air a little bit. We started going for a drink afterwards, and were able to talk things through more calmly, sharing the mutual feeling of being emotionally deflated. The counseling helped finally to get through to him in regards how I feel when he starts yelling or barking, etc. One day he said, "this part is over" and so far, he kept his word.
> 
> Then we stopped counseling, when at one session counselor did something she should not have, but we keep the day and time with babysitter, and use it for our weekly dates. We have nice, pleasant life now, but it will take a while for me to come back emotionally. When we tried the first time, after my first "D" word, I was much hopeful, and excited. Now, after being burnt, I am still closed emotionally. He tries once in a while to get some kind of declaration from me, but I am not able to give it to him right now. We are taking small steps and see how will this go.


I understand this feeling since I've walked it. It was SO intense that locking up out of sheer fear of it falling apart AND a residual hardness of being raked over the coals for so long. Will it come back, only time will tell. There are times I still feel like I'm not 100%, which is a normal result of being through what I went through. But I choose to own it and I'm exploring what to do with it. A big part of my journey is my walk with Christ and it never fails that when I peer into HIS heart... it peels away another layer of batteredness still left inside me. I also tap into my ACOA theory to remind myself to stay centered. I know, if the old behaviors show up, I'm strong enough to leave and will be well off enough financially to weather that storm. My health is starting to come back. Always take it one day at a time, figure out the parts where you may be inadvertently beating yourself up on the inside. Be intentional about living stress lite. Expand your support system. Even though "that" storm is done. There is a lot of personal healing to do. That's where I would shift my focus. And you standing up for yourself was probably the greatest gift you could have ever given him. Celebrate that choice. You did good Girl.


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## autopilot

WandaJ said:


> Time for some update:
> 
> Things actually turned around...when I told him (it was sometimes in September), that I can not do it anymore, I am done.
> 
> We did two or three months of counseling. The counseling helped finally to get through to him in regards how I feel when he starts yelling or barking, etc. One day he said, "this part is over" and so far, he kept his word.
> 
> Then we stopped counseling, We have nice, pleasant life now, but it will take a while for me to come back emotionally. He tries once in a while to get some kind of declaration from me, but I am not able to give it to him right now. We are taking small steps and see how will this go.


Congratulations on the steps you've managed so far, Wanda.

But, I strongly urge you to find that therapeutic outlet for your healing. The counseling that you started was ended way too soon from the many issues that you have revealed in your marriage. Just one small slip and your "nice, pleasant life" will come crashing down once again. And, it will be incredibly worse then because you've given into a small sense of hope for reconciliation. A set-back in your healing will dash those hopes unmercifully unless you have a safe avenue in a confidant or counselor to walk you back from the cliff's edge.


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## WandaJ

Blossom Leigh said:


> I understand this feeling since I've walked it. It was SO intense that locking up out of sheer fear of it falling apart AND a residual hardness of being raked over the coals for so long. Will it come back, only time will tell. There are times I still feel like I'm not 100%, which is a normal result of being through what I went through. But I choose to own it and I'm exploring what to do with it. A big part of my journey is my walk with Christ and it never fails that when I peer into HIS heart... it peels away another layer of batteredness still left inside me. I also tap into my ACOA theory to remind myself to stay centered. I know, if the old behaviors show up, I'm strong enough to leave and will be well off enough financially to weather that storm. My health is starting to come back. Always take it one day at a time, figure out the parts where you may be inadvertently beating yourself up on the inside. Be intentional about living stress lite. Expand your support system. Even though "that" storm is done. There is a lot of personal healing to do. That's where I would shift my focus. And you standing up for yourself was probably the greatest gift you could have ever given him. Celebrate that choice. You did good Girl.


thanks Blossom Leigh, that means a lot coming from you, as you know this road very well. I know it is time to focus on me now, to recover balance. I did gain around fifteen pounds since that last ordeal, now working on loosing it again. But my energy seems much lower now, like deflated ball. Still confused.


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## WandaJ

autopilot said:


> Congratulations on the steps you've managed so far, Wanda.
> 
> But, I strongly urge you to find that therapeutic outlet for your healing. The counseling that you started was ended way too soon from the many issues that you have revealed in your marriage. Just one small slip and your "nice, pleasant life" will come crashing down once again. And, it will be incredibly worse then because you've given into a small sense of hope for reconciliation. A set-back in your healing will dash those hopes unmercifully unless you have a safe avenue in a confidant or counselor to walk you back from the cliff's edge.


Thank you autopilot. I have a strong group of people, llifetime friends, that are my confidants. But I know I should also be seeing counselor, as I am still confused in all of it, and feel my walls still standing strong. I tried couple times and was disappointed, and got discouraged. I guess I should get back on track and start looking again.


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## WandaJ

ConanHub said:


> It will never fully work if you insist he work on his issues while lying to him about your own for the rest of your lives.
> 
> I understand your hesitation but you are trying to control and manipulate the result you want.
> 
> It will not work long term.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My expectations are not that high anymore, CH. With him or anyone else. There are part of me that I won't share with anyone, and that's just one of them.


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## ConanHub

WandaJ said:


> My expectations are not that high anymore, CH. With him or anyone else. There are part of me that I won't share with anyone, and that's just one of them.


Ok then. But you should not complain that he isn't living totally up to standards and that you don't feel as close to him as you would like.

On your current course, you never will and it is definitely in your lap and not his on this issue.

I have given this same advice to a close friend and will continue to do so for as long as you are posting.

Just understand, a major part of the damage to your marriage was caused by your actions as well as his.

You want him to fix his mess while lying about yours and hiding it from him.

You say you don't expect much but post your disappointment with your H when he isn't living up to your standards.

This will absolutely never work. Your secret will always be a huge wall between you and your part in the marriage will forever be defined as a liar and manipulator.

That is what you have become. Not a wife of dignity.

Friends don't tell you what you want to hear but what you need to hear.

You seriously need to look at yourself and ask yourself if you are someone you like and want your children to emulate.

I'm not even saying your H is worth staying with but at this point, maybe you aren't either.

Best wishes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WandaJ

ConanHub said:


> You say you don't expect much but post your disappointment with your H when he isn't living up to your standards.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am not disappointed by him anymore. What have learnt over the last couple years was that I should have not married him. Now I have kids and will try to do my best.


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## ConanHub

Your best is lying and trying to manipulate an outcome. You are rationalizing and justifying.

I seriously doubt that is your best.

It hurts to write but I don't admire or like that you are behaving this way.


Just know there is a rational voice of dissent amidst the compliments and I even like you.

I guess as long as you find cheating, lying and manipulating to be acceptable behavior from your husband and children, I at least won't think you guilty of hypocrisy.

I sincerely doubt you would accept your behavior from your husband and children though.

Can you expect any better from them if you justify and rationalize it for yourself?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh

WandaJ said:


> thanks Blossom Leigh, that means a lot coming from you, as you know this road very well. I know it is time to focus on me now, to recover balance. I did gain around fifteen pounds since that last ordeal, now working on loosing it again. But my energy seems much lower now, like deflated ball. Still confused.


Time and intentional recovery lifts the confusion. You are very welcome.


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## T&T

Any updates,Wanda? How are things going?


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## Michael Hale

YES! It's still possible to boost your affection for eachother. Try something new (adventure or in the bedroom), communicate on a deep level, and just sit down and talk with eachother and decide that you will make it work out. I know this one short book actually that relates to this issue and I'll link it below if you wanna check it out. I hope you two will be able to solve this!

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01EEUN4AE


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## MachoMcCoy

WandaJ said:


> We talked, I explained, he apologized, and the circle continued. If I came to TAM ten years ago, I think this would make a difference. Now - I do not know.


Who is that good looking guy who keeps saying this? That guy's an idiot, but this then keeps coming up over, and over, and over...

Of COURSE it won't make a difference. Nobody understands this. Unless you've gone through it. Like THIS guy:



Thound said:


> I had no clue until I got the dreaded speech.


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## MachoMcCoy

WandaJ said:


> But in unhealthy, broken relationship good sex just extends the misery, disguises it in something beautiful for a while.


WOW. How was it possible to put that into one short, concise sentence like that. Amazing. 

I'll just add that once you figure out that euphoria was false, the crash is REALLY hard.


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## MachoMcCoy

WandaJ said:


> Time for some update:
> 
> Things actually turned around. After that last screaming event , something broke in me. He was trying to make up and could not understand why I was holding grudge for so long. That's when I told him (it was sometimes in September), that I can not do it anymore, I am done. *That's when it really hit him, that this was happening for real. Next day he asked me if I am open to marriage counseling. *I said, 'sure, we have kids". He found therapist and scheduled us for EFt (Emotionally Focused Therapy) for same week.


Why do you all ridicule me? THIS is exactly the cure-all I have been trying to sell for 5 years now. 

Why was Wanda seemingly surprised that he changed when he FINALLY HEARD HER!!! Why didn't SHE get it? Because women do not and seemingly cannot grasp this basic male emotional reaction the trauma of the "kick in the gut". 

Go ahead and copy "kick in the gut" and put it in the search bar. Every post will be by that idiot that won't shut up, MachoMcDumba$$ or something (no relation, I assure you). 

Try to understand what the #@*k he is trying to say and put his magic formula into a book. You will be a billionaire. 



Mr J shouldn't have needed the kick.
Mrs J should have been clued into this incredibly common phenomena and known instinctively how to administer said kick.

But instead, everybody will continue to be "shocked".

And *I'M* the idiot?


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## Annette Tush

ladymisato said:


> There is a very good chance that he has no clue whatsoever how annoyed you are with him.


Ya, them men usually get a wake up call when it is too late. They keep thinking that it is not bad after all even when all the indicators are on :wink2:


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## philreag

She too has checked out. ..


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