# Wife's texts while she was on the road.



## PhillyGuy13

This is my first posting and it will be long. So apologies but thanks for advice/feedback.

I'm 40, wife "Anna" is 33. Together 9 years, married for 6. Two kids, ages 5 and 3. I travel frequently for work, my wife occasionally. She works for national bank. We live in upstate NY. She is a great mom and wife, really wholesome so I never thought I'd be in this situation.

Her manager "Kurt" is 41, based in Cleveland. She has worked for him for 2-3 years. She has to go out there a few times per year, he comes out our way a few times a year. They've developed a friendship which didn't bother me. She has gone out with him and his girlfriend when she is in Cleveland in the past, seemed innocent. I believe he is divorced, I know he at least has a kid. In October the bank combined some positions and he lost his job.. I know it bothered her she was really stressed with "getting to know a new boss now when she had a good relationship with Kurt"

On November 13-14 she was out in Cleveland with her team to meet the new boss. She had told me she was going to meet Kurt out on the night of 11/14. She checked in with me a few times throughout the night both phone and texts.

Around 11:30 pm her iPad starts pinging. She didn't bring it with her, so the kids can play with it. I got up to shut the sound off, when I saw this exchange (edited for spelling only) the convo seems a bit jumbled - May be they were slow to respond to each other or that is how it came through on the iPad.

Anna: 11:36pm So you still owe me dinner next time!!! (They headed out around 5:00 but never ate- only bars)
Kurt: Agreed. and a drink. Or two.
Anna: Lol... Good on drinks 
Kurt: Not yet, but close. You are good AP look me up when you in Clev (AP is a nickname I had for her that apparently he does too)
Kurt: had fun tonight. Hope you did too. Sorry for the awful pizza.
Anna: So Feb 6-7 I am back... save the date!
Anna: I had fun too
Kurt: I will... And dinner will be planned much better
Anna: 
Kurt: drinks at "xxxx bar" maybe skip
Kurt: outside the lines- you are good- you will do well.
Kurt: next time you and I just hang.
Anna: outside the lines??
Kurt: of work. Of political correctness. Where I can tell you you are pretty and it is ok.
Anna: it was just you and I? (She is questioning because they were alone 5-10' then at 10 his girlfriend came out to drive him home, it was the three of them 10-11)
Kurt: yes - until you got hammered... Or until I did.
Anna: lol you did
Kurt: I got the delicious pizza for us. (Sarcasm - the pizza was terrible)
Anna: ok going to bed now
Kurt: next time we eat in your room. Easier to trust room service. 
Kurt: Later AP
Anna: 
Anna: don't forget me because you are gone now!
Kurt: you're cute. Have a good night sweetie. Sorry I missed on dinner. Order at hotel. Next time in town let me know. 
Kurt: I will do the same. I have some friends by you now. In "your town"
Anna: already in bed... No dinner tonight.
Kurt: And that is somehow hot. The dinner part my bad. But the bed part...
Kurt: it is early now that I see it. What do you sleep in?
Anna: seriously you are in the car with "girlfriend"
Kurt: Umm... I am home. I live 15 minutes away. You should come hang. I will cook dinner. (I do not know if he lives with girlfriend)
Anna: so it is "Albany College" pajama pants. Now that is TMI 
Kurt: that is cute... And I liked holding your hand. Different, now but had fun. Hope you did too. I want to see.
Anna: to see?
Kurt: Albany College pants
Anna: I have to delete this conversation. 
Kurt: I have heard that before. Usually it is from "boss" but glad it's u now
Anna: 12:05 am lol. Hope you are around when I am back here.

She then had to get to airport early for early flight home. There were exchanges that morning about how hung over they feel, need to eat etc. when she got back that morning I confronted her (next post)


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## Will_Kane

That was Kurt making a drunken pass at your wife after his girlfriend dropped him off at home, and your wife deflecting.


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## Will_Kane

I can follow the conversation just fine the order it's in.

It sounds like Kurt got braver with distance and a lot of liquor in him.

Your wife didn't flat out tell him to stop because she was married, but I don't think Kurt flat out made it clear that he wanted to hookup for sex - at least he didn't say it in so many words.

Kurt, in his drunken state, felt that your wife was "open" to it. She wasn't.

What exchange took place the next day or days? Did Kurt apologize, did your wife tell him she would never consider cheating on you? Probably, I would guess.

Still, if I was in your shoes, I would not be comfortable with them meeting up again or staying in contact. Drunk or not, he made a pass at your wife.


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## PhillyGuy13

She could tell something was upsetting me. I told her how I saw the texts and she said she is sorry she made a really poor decision. Says they both had way too much to drink. 

I asked about the handholding. She says as they were walking to a bar, he grabbed her hand but she says she immediately pulled away. I said it's just odd that if you immediately pulled away hours later he would text that he liked it.

She says she feels absolutely nothing for him. I asked how she felt - clearly he is coming on to you. She says it grossed her out. I said you didn't seem grossed out. She says she would never ever do anything to jeopardize our life, our marriage, or the family.

I said you have made plans to see him again. She says he is her friend. She says in February a third "female coworker" will also be with them so he couldn't try anything, and even if he did I need to trust that she would never ever do anything. I said I would rather you not see him at all.

So I've barely slept for two weeks. Two nights ago we are at her parents. It was still eating at me. Again I got the I would never jeopardize our family speech. I said then comply with my request and don't see him anymore. She said fine! But it's like you don't trust me!!

And she is right. I don't. I also travel for work and see how others act when away from home. And yes I've flirted too, but have never cheated. I don't think she did anything- jury still out on handholding- but I am afraid that she will next time she is in Cleveland. Certainly he will be looking for something when she is out there.

The first day home she immediately disabled the texts on her iPad so I won't be able to see her messages anymore. But the problem will be in Cleveland. I'm handcuffed to the kids out here when she is in Cleveland.

I subscribe to where there is smoke there is fire. The last contact at least from cell phone and texts were over a week ago, and seemed work related. I appreciate any feedback you folks can provide.


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## WasInLove

For the most part looks like light flirting. The sweetie part from Kurt caught my eye though. Who calls one of their subordinates "sweetie"?


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## PhillyGuy13

She said the last time she talked to him he mentioned some job related stuff that he also talked about that night so her logic is "clearly he is drunk, and doesn't remember". I think he obviously still has the texts on his phone, whether he remembers or not


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## TDSC60

I would make sure your wife and Kurt are never together again. That exchange crossed the line. Drunk or not. Her boundaries and respect for you and your marriage dropped really low that night.

The comment about having to delete the convo is also disturbing. She knew what she was doing was inappropriate and she was telling him she would delete the evidence while making plans to meet him again in the future.

You also should find out who his "friends" in your town are. Where they discussing ways to communicate through "friends" so they would not leave an electronic trail that you might find?

Go with your gut. Something is not right here.


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## tom67

Ask her if it was the other way around would she be so cavalier.

I don't think so.
This may be one of the few times here where you caught this early before anything really happened.


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## WasInLove

tom67 said:


> Ask her if it was the other way around would she be so cavalier.
> 
> I don't think so.
> This may be one of the few times here where you caught this early before anything really happened.


I agree


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## Will_Kane

I believe your wife about the hand holding. Kurt was blasted and had a different perspective. Your wife is nice to Kurt, treats him as a friend, in his drunken state he wanted more and assumed more.

I don't think your wife would cheat on you, or I should say, I don't think she has any intention of cheating on you.

She thinks she can still just be friends, even though Kurt wants more.

Does she acknowledge that Kurt wants more?

No matter what, I don't want my wife going out with or even communicating any longer with any "friend" that wants to have sex with her. Third party along to "chaperone" or not.

Your wife has done nothing wrong, except her boundary is different than yours. She's not seeing it from your perspective.

Ask your wife if there was a woman you used to work with that you met with as friends, and she got drunk and made a pass at you, would your wife be comfortable with you continuing to be friends with the woman, still communicate with the woman, still go out with the woman, still naively say that the woman is just a friend?


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## MovingAhead

Brother, he made a pass at your wife.

There are two things you can do. You can ignore it and hope to God your wife doesn't develop feelings for him. Your wife is lying to you by the way. She enjoyed the attention. She was flattered. She was ASKING about his girlfriend being in the car... She was seeing if this girlfriend was a serious catch or not... She was testing the waters too.

Whenever she goes out to Cleveland, which she will, she will have the urge to 'hook up' with him and take it further. This is the truth.

Up until now, it was fairly harmless.

Men do not hang out with women as friends unless at least one of them is attracted to the other. Your wife might not have been attracted to 'sweetie' but it has now escalated.

There is no way she can ever contact him again without the possibility of an affair occurring. You do not tell a woman she is hot unless you want to see her naked.

I would seriously tell your wife that she did not respect the boundaries of your marriage. She should have cut him off immediately and forever with that pass. She should not speak to him any more and if she does, well maybe she should just move out there.

It sounds harsh, but she is your wife. I made the mistake of trusting my wife with male friends. I do not make that mistake any more.


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## tulsy

PhillyGuy13 said:


> ....
> I said you have made plans to see him again. She says he is her friend. .... I got the I would never jeopardize our family speech. I said then comply with my request and don't see him anymore. She said fine! But it's like you don't trust me!!...


She doesn't deserve your trust. She didn't tell you what happened, you had to tell her why you were visibly upset...that's her lying by omission.

She mentioned having to delete the conversation...that's trying to hide her inappropriate behavior, so she knew it was inappropriate.

She immediately removed text from the Ipad so you can't see stuff in the future...that shows she plans to continue to hide, which shows she plans to pursue the inappropriate behavior.

She never turned the guy down about being in the hotel together for next time. She has shown the OM she doesn't have a boundary there.

She made plans to be with him again.

Even if she says she won't see him again, I wouldn't believe her.


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## tulsy

MovingAhead said:


> ...
> I would seriously tell your wife that she did not respect the boundaries of your marriage. She should have cut him off immediately and forever with that pass. She should not speak to him any more and if she does, well maybe she should just move out there.
> ....


I agree. It's not like they work together any more, and he proved he's not out for her friendship. 

She likes the attention...if it really made her sick, she wouldn't have made plans to see him again.


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## mablenc

" Again I got the I would never jeopardize our family speech. I said then comply with my request and don't see him anymore. She said fine! But it's like you don't trust me!!

The first day home she immediately disabled the texts on her iPad"

These are red flags you need to pay attention to, cheaters script and actions.

Start reading this:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/32002-welcome-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read.html
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

He is a menace to your family. She either accepts that and cuts him off or things will get worse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lenzi

She has no business ever seeing this guy again.

Too bad you tipped her off to the texts.

She must tell him you saw the texts and she can never see him again.


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## SaltInWound

He suggests they eat in her hotel room next time and she gives him a 

There is something terribly wrong with that picture.


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## tom67

SaltInWound said:


> He suggests they eat in her hotel room next time and she gives him a
> 
> There is something terribly wrong with that picture.


:iagree::iagree:


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## Will_Kane

Was the conversation deleted by the time she arrived home?

What has she said about changing the iPad settings to try to hide future stuff from you?

Those actions are not exactly trust-builders, are they?


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## Will_Kane

As others have pointed out, she definitely was being "flirty" with him and enjoying his attention.

Many times we have seen on this forum a cheating wife who says "I liked the attention and felt like I had to have sex with other man to keep the attention coming."

Not at all uncommon - trading sex for attention.

Even with guys who are way older or way younger and completely unattractive. It happens enough.


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## 6301

The only thing I can tell you is if you know how to turn the Ipad back on and read the texts then do it and if it you told her no contact if she continues. 

The only problem is now she knows you can read them so if need be, hire a PI and have her followed.


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## SaltInWound

Why is he calling her by a nickname you gave her?

Notice how she began the conversation and ended it by giving him the date she would be in town the next time, telling him to save the date (with an exclamation mark) and that she was hoping he would be in town when she arrives.

I think you need to find a babysitter for Feb and go with your wife on that next trip to see Kurt.


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## MovingAhead

SaltInWound said:


> Why is he calling her by a nickname you gave her?
> 
> Notice how she began the conversation and ended it by giving him the date she would be in town the next time, telling him to save the date (with an exclamation mark) and that she was hoping he would be in town when she arrives.
> 
> I think you need to find a babysitter for Feb and go with your wife on that next trip to see Kurt.


:iagree::iagree:

I think a 'hell yeah' is in order.


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## MrK

PI would be better. Don't mention it again until she goes. Let her think you forgot.


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## SaltInWound

She also told him not to forget her.


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## PhillyGuy13

No the convo wasn't deleted on the phone or iPad until after I confronted her. Then later that day the iPad was disabled. 

Last week we were intimate twice. Usually we are intimate 1-2 a month. (I am willing just about any day and night). So it isn't like I'm a guy that doesn't want it.

This week when she found out I was still upset she tells me I need to drop it nothing would happen and it's going to drive a wedge between us. That was when I said I don't want her to see him again.


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## PhillyGuy13

I never confronted her about turning the iPad off. At this point I won't it's been two weeks, and I know if she turns it back on then she won't post anything worth while.


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## vi_bride04

PhillyGuy13 said:


> This week when she found out I was still upset she tells me I need to drop it nothing would happen and it's going to drive a wedge between us. That was when I said I don't want her to see him again.
> .


Why yes, you having inappropriate interaction with a man who is not YOUR HUSBAND will drive a wedge between us. I'm glad you see that and will stop all communication with him.


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## tom67

Usually we are intimate 1-2 a month.

There is something wrong with this seriously especially for a fairly young couple.
You should be 1 to 2 times a week.
MC may be in order.


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## CASE_Sensitive

PhillyGuy13 said:


> No the convo wasn't deleted on the phone or iPad until after I confronted her. Then later that day the iPad was disabled.
> 
> Last week we were intimate twice. Usually we are intimate 1-2 a month. (I am willing just about any day and night). So it isn't like I'm a guy that doesn't want it.
> 
> This week when she found out I was still upset she tells me I need to drop it nothing would happen and it's going to drive a wedge between us. That was when I said I don't want her to see him again.
> 
> I pulled all the cell phone bills over the past few months. Maybe 1-2 quick calls a month during work hours which I don't find extraordinary. Texts won't show in the bill since they are apple iMessages.


I would tell her that if she continues to keep this guy as a friend, THAT will drive a wedge between you. This POS crossed enough lines that I would be going through the roof. This guy getting drunk reveals more about his true nature and what he wants. I do believe your wife has been truthful and it hasn't crossed the line, but not for lack of his trying and little weasel probes.


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## PhillyGuy13

TDSC60 said:


> I would make sure your wife and Kurt are never together again. That exchange crossed the line. Drunk or not. Her boundaries and respect for you and your marriage dropped really low that night.
> 
> The comment about having to delete the convo is also disturbing. She knew what she was doing was inappropriate and she was telling him she would delete the evidence while making plans to meet him again in the future.
> 
> You also should find out who his "friends" in your town are. Where they discussing ways to communicate through "friends" so they would not leave an electronic trail that you might find?
> 
> Go with your gut. Something is not right here.


He doesn't truly have friends here. That was a red flag for me. The friends referenced were an "Asian couple" that was at the bar he was at last time he was out here and they struck up a conversation with him. He also no longer works for the bank- so he'd have no legitimate reason to be out here. Again I can keep an eye out at home but not Cleveland.


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## SaltInWound

PhillyGuy13 said:


> This week when she found out I was still upset she tells me I need to drop it nothing would happen and it's going to drive a wedge between us.


So, if you don't rug sweep and let her carry on with Kurt, the breakdown of the marriage will be your fault?


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## Will_Kane

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Last week we were intimate twice. *Usually we are intimate 1-2 a month. (I am willing just about any day and night*). So it isn't like I'm a guy that doesn't want it.


So there are other issues in your marriage. We all have them, but this is how the cheating starts sometimes. How often do you try to initiate and get turned down? What "romance" is in your life with your wife? How often do you go out with your wife like other man did? Drinking and then back to a hotel, without kids? She really had fun doing it with other man, and she really wants to do it again.

Common complaint among cheating wives who did it for "attention" is that husband didn't make me feel sexy, hot, etc. I'm not talking about trying to initiate sex after the kids are in bed. I'm talking about letting her know that when you are headed out the door to work in the morning, whenever you communicate with her during the day.

Once another guy starts giving them that attention, like you probably did when you were just "courting" her, they realize how much they miss it, makes them start to question how much you love them, they start to feel like roommates or friends with benefits, that you don't really love them, etc. That's how they start to rationalize it. You feel you are showing your love by working hard and coming home and supporting her and being a "good" husband and "good" father. They want the romance, too. When they start to get it from someone else, someone who they originally thought of as a friend, sometimes they cheat. A lot of generalizing here, but if you see yourself and your wife in this, maybe it is something to consider.


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## PhillyGuy13

I also let her know that I was rereading the texts the other day, she got very angry that I kept a pic and insisted I delete them.


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## Will_Kane

I guess what I was trying to say in prior post is that these things - flirting with other man - doesn't happen in a vacuum. There was her work relationship with him, she got along well with him, she enjoyed going out with him even when work was no longer involved - all the while there were other issues in your marriage that you didn't give much thought to, things had become routine, you took each other for granted - and then along comes other man and your focus is solely on him. You should be focused on your wife breaking off contact with him, but also with why she feels the need for contact so strongly with some guy who she only exchanges a few calls with every now and then and only meets up with every 3-4 months. If a woman like that bothered your wife, you probably would have no qualms of ending it immediately, even if you had no intention of cheating. Why does your wife not feel that way?


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## PhillyGuy13

@Will. Honestly you are right and this was a bit of a wake up call. 

I try it initiate sex at least 1-2 a week but usually only get it 1-2 a month. She will often blame her weight issues, not losing all of the baby weight (which to me I don't care one bit about) We both agreed to try to make more time for each other. It is tough with two young kids at home to go out. Both of our families live 2-3 hours away. We've actually begun to use one of the daycare aides as a babysitter. Last week I got flowers one day, cooked dinner one night. She says I don't need to do these things that she loves me. I've made suggestions to go away for a weekend or an overnight and she seems receptive we need to find a babysitter willing to do an overnight.

Last week the new boss was in town. So several coworkers all went out as a group Monday and Wednesday night at the last minute. I made sure not to give her a hard time. She came home very tipsy Wednesday around 9:00 She told me she was appreciative that I let her go out. That she sometimes needed to feel like she felt before kids. Where for a few hours she doesn't have to worry about being a mother. Aside: she is a GREAT mom to the kids, and until last week NEVER goes out.


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## Refuse to be played

Have this on her phone before the next Cleveland trip. Get everything including iMessages. Warning: must be jailbroken first.

iPhone Spy Software – Mobile Spy iPhone Monitoring App

Also I'd hire a baby sitter, not tell her and surprise her at her hotel.


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## InlandTXMM

SaltInWound said:


> He suggests they eat in her hotel room next time and she gives him a
> 
> There is something terribly wrong with that picture.


THIS!! Twice the OM tried to suggest they get alone - these were trial balloons to gauge her reaction.

He's not "flirting". He's a pick-up artist. He's following The Mystery Method to the letter. In the Pick-Up Artist world they call these kinds of things "Escalation" and "Isolation".

The holding of hands was another test. If she accepted his physical touch, he's in.

If your wife deleted these texts before she got home, my friend, I think she did more than "hold hands" already. I suspect there was at least some kissing.

Now some may tell you to wait it out, go covert, etc. I say, when you have distance between her and this guy right now, YOU C*CKBLOCK THIS MF and end this now. If she has to change jobs, she has to change jobs.

Yes, it's that serious. Your wife just put a loaded gun to the head of your family.


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## InlandTXMM

PhillyGuy13 said:


> I also let her know that I was rereading the texts the other day, she got very angry that I kept a pic and insisted I delete them.


She knows what she's doing is inappropriate. This is called projecting.


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## barbados

1) You REALLY need to read NOT JUST FRIENDS by Dr. Shirley Glass. 

2) Your wife's relationship with this man is COMPLETELY inappropriate.

3) Sounds like she is already in an EA at least with him.

4) This is heading straight for a PA, if its not already.

5) A married woman CANNOT have friendships with other men like this, especially a co-worker / boss.


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## InlandTXMM

PLEASE, OP, for the love of all that's Holy, do NOT be one of these doormat, pushover Nice Guys who is afraid to put an end to your wife's nonsense.

Who cares if she's mad at you today, if she's in your home a year from now.

You put your foot down HARD today, or you will be finding out she's been banging the boss within weeks.


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## InlandTXMM

SaltInWound said:


> So, if you don't rug sweep and let her carry on with Kurt, the breakdown of the marriage will be your fault?


The idle threat of a cake eater, OP. 

KURT is the wedge, not a man saving his marriage from a PUA predator.


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## MovingAhead

Your wife was starting an EA or loved the flirting... The OM the one who would bang your wife when she came into town and have no responsibilities of wrecking your family... If she so much as talks to him again, she is way over the line.

Do NOT rug-sweep this. This needs to be dealt with. She did a bad bad thing. She was looking for male gratification outside of her marriage.

If you are not enough for her, then your marriage is doomed and it is not your fault.

You got her flowers.
You cooked for her.
You let her go out.

What did she do for you? Sounds like a whole bunch of nothing.

Your marriage is more important than her job. Don't let her go out with friends, you take her out! She didn't marry her friends, she married you. She needs to invest in the marriage too.

Go to the gym, start working out. Build the muscles. You need to attract your mate. Eat right. I usually lift from 8:30-10 at night because in general, it's the only time I have available.


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## PhillyGuy13

We have iOS 7.0 iPhones and from everything I can tell none of that spyware is compatible yet believe me I've looked.

Not that I want to sound like I'm defending her but she didn't delete ANYTHING until after I confronted her. I don't think she would have picked and choosen what to delete before hand, she would have deleted the whole convo before she got home.


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## Will_Kane

PhillyGuy13 said:


> We've actually begun to use one of the daycare aides as a babysitter. I've made suggestions to go away for a weekend or an overnight and she seems receptive we need to find a babysitter willing to do an overnight.


You need to start doing this. You will enjoy it, too. Even if it means driving 2-3 hours where your families live on a Friday night after work, dropping the kids, staying in a hotel Friday night and Saturday night, then picking up the kids and coming home Sunday morning. Maybe every 3 months or so.

Use the babysitter to go on a date with your wife every couple of weeks.

Everything everyone else is posting about her ending contact with other man is right on the money, too. She will be a lot more receptive after you do the romantic type things alone with her. Talking about and agreeing is one thing, actually doing is another, and makes a big difference in how much she will want to see other man and risk ruining what she has with you.

You should continue to hold firm, when the subject comes up, that seeing other man is not acceptable to you. Do not threaten any consequences unless you are willing to follow through.


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## tom67

InlandTXMM said:


> The idle threat of a cake eater, OP.
> 
> KURT is the wedge, not a man saving his marriage from a PUA predator.


Plus sex 1 to 2 times a month aside from medical issues is not acceptable.
Who is this new boss?


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## InlandTXMM

Your wife is being played, OP. The fact that she's found herself so needy for a man's aggressive attention means you have to really step up your game.

You start by putting this whole fantasy thing she's got with Kurt to a quick death.


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## PhillyGuy13

New boss just started 2-3 weeks ago and is also based in Cleveland. I know nothing about him, other than he was out here last week for work reasons. I'm not concerned with him.


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## MovingAhead

PhillyGuy13 said:


> We have iOS 7.0 iPhones and from everything I can tell none of that spyware is compatible yet believe me I've looked.
> 
> Not that I want to sound like I'm defending her but she didn't delete ANYTHING until after I confronted her. I don't think she would have picked and choosen what to delete before hand, she would have deleted the whole convo before she got home.


When my children were younger, one of them stole something and they would not tell me who did it. I took them in the basement and I threatened to use a paddle on them. I threatened them because what they did was pretty serious. I described in great detail how it would hurt and I went into great detail about how it would feel to get it. I talked to them about why it is not ok to do what was done. They were crying well before I used the paddle on any of them. (I didn't have to but I would have)

They knew stealing was wrong. The got a good idea of the consequences. My kids knew I would give them the paddle and they knew it would hurt bad.

I never had to. They got the idea if what they did could cause such a mess and bring so much pain, they would not do it.

The point is. I dealt with the immediate issue. I did not do it to fix what was wrong at that moment. I dealt with it to fix what was wrong period, not only then but for a long time to come.

You do not sweep this under the rug. She did lots of bad things here. She allowed another man to flirt with her while she was away. She entertained bad thoughts. Make no doubt about it. She allowed for those trial balloons and did not just SHUT HIM down. She is NOT innocent in this. She is not a victim. She relished the attention.

She needs to know what it would be like to not be able to spend Christmas with her children as an example. She needs to understand that she is the one who caused all of this.

If there is something amiss in your marriage, you both need to own it and you both need to work on your parts. If she has some PPD, well she needs to deal with it.


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## Janky

She seemed pretty defensive in keeping her friendship with this guy.

Who in their right mind would risk marriage and family over some friend that lives so far away?

The biggest red flag for me was the immediate text disabling of the ipad after you confronted her.


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## just got it 55

:iagree:


Janky said:


> She seemed pretty defensive in keeping her friendship with this guy.
> 
> Who in their right mind would risk marriage and family over some friend that lives so far away?
> 
> The biggest red flag for me was the immediate text disabling of the ipad after you confronted her.


:iagree:Completly 

Stay in 007 mode


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## Nujabes

After done reading your situation, I'm really confused why are they going on DATES together to get pizza and getting drunk???

And the thing about holding the hand. She lied if she said she shrugged it off immediately. As you've said before, Kurt wouldn't have TEXT that he missed holding hands together, in other words she didn't shrugged it off "immediately" and they DID held hands together.

AND She "CONSCIOUSLY" knew what she is doing is wrong when she typed that she is going to delete "evidence".

ANDDDD if he doesn't work at the bank anymore WHY the F*** are they still in contact?!?!

Oh and a warning for you Philly, I know she's going to pull the "Just a Friend" line on you later down the road. So be prepared. Let yourself be immune to that line, because cheaters use that line a lot in EA's.


----------



## LongWalk

I don't see that wasn't already a PA. Could be. All the talk about underwear, way out of line. Pizza is a typical sex fuel.

In any event, get in shape. Build your self confidence. Clearly she is detached from you. She ought to be working to repair your marriage. 

Is the sex you get duty sex? Was she always so LD?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## sinnister

I guess I'm one of the only ones who thinks the OP is jumping the gun.

It seems like your wife let him down easy multiple times in that convo and change the subject a couple times too.

He definitely wants more but I see nothing there that suggests your wife is remotely interested. It does suggest that she's afraid of how you would react if you saw the conversation. 

OP: Have you accused her of cheating before this?


----------



## InlandTXMM

Nujabes said:


> Oh and a warning for you Philly, I know she's going to pull the "Just a Friend" line on you later down the road. So be prepared. Let yourself be immune to that line, because cheaters use that line a lot in EA's.


Yep. Here's the Cheater's Script, abridged version.

"He's just a friend."
"Texts are just having fun. Nothing to worry about."
"We just held hands."
"He kissed me once but I told him to stop."
"We kissed a lot but that's all. I swear on the kids' lives."
"He touched my breast but I told him to stop. He was really aggressive about it. I won't see him anymore."
"He pulled out his P. I touched it for a second but stopped."
"It was only a little oral."
"We did it once. But I hated it and thought of you the whole time."
"We did it only three times. I swear on my mother's grave. And I promise, I broke it off."
"We did it like animals; I don't know how many times, it was unprotected and also really kinky. Oh and I realize now I love you but am not IN love with you."


----------



## Anuvia

PhillyGuy13 said:


> She could tell something was upsetting me. I told her how I saw the texts and she said she is sorry she made a really poor decision. Says they both had way too much to drink.
> 
> I asked about the handholding. She says as they were walking to a bar, he grabbed her hand but she says she immediately pulled away. I said it's just odd that if you immediately pulled away hours later he would text that he liked it.
> 
> She says she feels absolutely nothing for him. I asked how she felt - clearly he is coming on to you. She says it grossed her out. I said you didn't seem grossed out. She says she would never ever do anything to jeopardize our life, our marriage, or the family.
> 
> I said you have made plans to see him again. She says he is her friend. She says in February a third "female coworker" will also be with them so he couldn't try anything, and even if he did I need to trust that she would never ever do anything. I said I would rather you not see him at all.
> 
> So I've barely slept for two weeks. Two nights ago we are at her parents. It was still eating at me. Again I got the I would never jeopardize our family speech. I said then comply with my request and don't see him anymore. She said fine! But it's like you don't trust me!!
> 
> And she is right. I don't. I also travel for work and see how others act when away from home. And yes I've flirted too, but have never cheated. I don't think she did anything- jury still out on handholding- but I am afraid that she will next times he is in Cleveland. Certainly I feel he will be looking for something when she is out there.
> 
> The first day home she immediately disabled the texts on her iPad. But I know how to turn them on without her knowing. I can also track her phone movements on iCloud. But the problem will be in Cleveland. I'm handcuffed to the kids out here when she is in Cleveland.
> 
> I've thought about hiring a PI. I've thought about buying recorders to hide in her bag, but she will be gone for 2-3 days so the battery will die.
> 
> I subscribe to where there is smoke there is fire. The last contact at least from cell phone and texts were over a week ago, and seemed work related. I appreciate any feedback you folks can provide.


Your wife is lying to you about that "never doing anything to jeopardize us" crap. She is full of shyt.


----------



## Janky

sinnister said:


> I guess I'm one of the only ones who thinks the OP is jumping the gun.
> 
> It seems like your wife let him down easy multiple times in that convo and change the subject a couple times too.
> 
> He definitely wants more but I see nothing there that suggests your wife is remotely interested. It does suggest that she's afraid of how you would react if you saw the conversation.
> 
> OP: Have you accused her of cheating before this?


I had the same feeling when reading through the text convo.

She didnt feed into the pickup although she didnt exactly tell him to stop.

The ipad was the main thing that raised my eyebrows.

If I were OP, I wouldn't say another word about it and start monitoring her activities. Better safe than sorry.


----------



## BradWesley

Why do I have the feeling this is another one of "those threads"!


----------



## PhillyGuy13

I'm not sure I know what "another one of those threads" means.

This is the first time I've ever accused her of cheating- and haven't really done that here either. 

The texts in and of themselves seem like she was trying to let him down easy. But who knows that is why I posted them they can be interpreted many ways. 

What is more concern to me at this point is the anger when I asked her to stop seeing this "friend" she only supposedly sees 3-4 times a year for work reasons (that no longer exist as of two weeks ago) she got really defensive and i got the "you Don't trust me speech"

I've shared this situation with three friends- a guy and two girls. The guy - my best friend- is friends with both of us and is really concerned. The two girls chalked it up to eh she was just happy for the attention and not looking to do anything. 

Is as inclined to agree until our conversation a few nights ago.


----------



## tulsy

MovingAhead said:


> ...If she so much as talks to him again, she is way over the line.


:iagree:



MovingAhead said:


> Do NOT rug-sweep this. This needs to be dealt with. She did a bad bad thing. She was looking for male gratification outside of her marriage.
> 
> If you are not enough for her, then your marriage is doomed and it is not your fault.


:iagree:



MovingAhead said:


> You got her flowers.
> You cooked for her.
> You let her go out.
> 
> What did she do for you? Sounds like a whole bunch of nothing.





PhillyGuy13 said:


> ...
> 
> Last week the new boss was in town. So several coworkers all went out as a group* Monday and Wednesday* night at the last minute. I made sure not to give her a hard time. She came home *very tipsy Wednesday* around 9:00 She told me she was appreciative that I let her go out. * That she sometimes needed to feel like she felt before kids*. Where for a few hours she doesn't have to worry about being a mother. Aside: she is a GREAT mom to the kids, and until last week NEVER goes out.


It sounds to me like she was eating the cake you baked her. She even used the opportunity to justify how some times she needs to act like she did before she had kids...you know, getting drunk with other dudes, flirting and doing stuff you won't know about....and deleting evidence by wiping out texts. Maybe she's buttering you up for the next time....be prepared, because when it happens again, you can expect your blow-up to be followed with more "I can't believe you don't trust me, you're spying on me, you caused this wedge because you're jealous, you can't tell me who I can be friends with..."

Is her work often a toxic environment? Lots of nights out for drinks? Not fun being married to someone who wants to shift their life in this direction, is it?



MovingAhead said:


> Your marriage is more important than her job. ... She didn't marry her friends, she married you. She needs to invest in the marriage too.
> 
> Go to the gym, start working out. Build the muscles. You need to attract your mate. Eat right. I usually lift from 8:30-10 at night because in general, it's the only time I have available.


:iagree:



PhillyGuy13 said:


> We have iOS 7.0 iPhones and from everything I can tell none of that spyware is compatible yet believe me I've looked.
> 
> Not that I want to sound like I'm defending her but she didn't delete ANYTHING until after I confronted her. I don't think she would have picked and choosen what to delete before hand, she would have deleted the whole convo before she got home.


So what? That's not a good thing. It's defense...proof is that she got pissed at you for still having a copy and for not rug-sweeping it yet,



Janky said:


> She seemed pretty defensive in keeping her friendship with this guy.
> 
> Who in their right mind would risk marriage and family over some friend that lives so far away?
> 
> The biggest red flag for me was the immediate text disabling of the ipad after you confronted her.


:iagree:


----------



## tulsy

sinnister said:


> I guess I'm one of the only ones who thinks the OP is jumping the gun.
> 
> It seems like your wife let him down easy multiple times in that convo and change the subject a couple times too.
> 
> He definitely wants more but I see nothing there that suggests your wife is remotely interested. It does suggest that she's afraid of how you would react if you saw the conversation.
> 
> OP: Have you accused her of cheating before this?


She certainly is interested in meeting the guy again...she asked him to save the date. She loves the attention from this guy. Shes not letting him down easy at all, if anything she encouraging him and pandering for more with "...don't forget me's" and "lol".

This is OM flirting and it she's being flirty right back. No way is that her letting him down easy.

The only thing she's afraid of is getting caught...she isn't afraid of carrying on with the OM.



PhillyGuy13 said:


> Anna: 11:36pm So you still owe me dinner *next time!!!* (They headed out around 5:00 but never ate- only bars)
> Kurt: Agreed. and a drink. Or two.
> Anna:* Lol... Good on drinks *
> Kurt: Not yet, but close. You are good AP look me up when you in Clev (AP is a nickname I had for her that apparently he does too)
> Kurt: had fun tonight. Hope you did too. Sorry for the awful pizza.
> Anna: So Feb 6-7 I am back... *save the date!*
> Anna: I had fun too
> Kurt: I will... And dinner will be planned much better
> Anna: **
> Kurt: drinks at "xxxx bar" maybe skip
> Kurt: outside the lines- you are good- you will do well.
> Kurt: next time you and I just hang.
> Anna: outside the lines??
> Kurt: of work. Of political correctness. Where I can tell you you are pretty and it is ok.
> Anna: it was just you and I? (She is questioning because they were alone 5-10' then at 10 his girlfriend came out to drive him home, it was the three of them 10-11)
> Kurt: yes - until you got hammered... Or until I did.
> Anna:* lol *you did
> Kurt: I got the delicious pizza for us. (Sarcasm - the pizza was terrible)
> Anna: ok going to bed now
> Kurt: next time we eat in your room. Easier to trust room service.
> Kurt: Later AP
> Anna: **
> Anna: *don't forget me because you are gone now!*
> Kurt: you're cute. Have a good night sweetie. Sorry I missed on dinner. Order at hotel. Next time in town let me know.
> Kurt: I will do the same. I have some friends by you now. In "your town"
> Anna: already in bed... No dinner tonight.
> Kurt: And that is somehow hot. The dinner part my bad. But the bed part...
> Kurt: it is early now that I see it. What do you sleep in?
> Anna: seriously you are in the car with "girlfriend"
> Kurt: Umm... I am home. I live 15 minutes away. You should come hang. I will cook dinner. (I do not know if he lives with girlfriend)
> Anna: so it is "Albany College" pajama pants. Now that is TMI
> Kurt: that is cute... And I liked holding your hand. Different, now but had fun. Hope you did too. I want to see.
> Anna: to see?
> Kurt: Albany College pants
> Anna: *I have to delete this conversation.*
> Kurt: I have heard that before. Usually it is from "boss" but glad it's u now
> Anna: 12:05 am lol. Hope you are around when I am back here.


----------



## sandc

PhillyGuy13 said:


> I'm not sure I know what "another one of those threads" means.
> 
> This is the first time I've ever accused her of cheating- and haven't really done that here either.


But to those of us who have been on TAM for a while, trust me, we've read your story over and over again.

PG13,
Cheaters follow a predictable script and so do their betrayed spouse's. Both she and you are following that script so far.

She has a "friend" who is a former boss. You allow it because they used to work for eachother and it's always seemed harmless.

It has escalated now to the point where her friendship with him is more important than the marriage with you. You still want to trust her because she claims she would never do anything like that. 

You confront her about texts than mean nothing to her yet she deletes them. There are now no longer any communication between them. Really? Search her purse, search her car, look for a burner phone.

Buy a VAR. PM Weightlifter and ask him which one. Put it in her car, securely fasten it up under the driver's seat. Does she talk anywhere else on the phone? Does she ever receive a call and move into another room or go outside?

Honestly, there are several red flags here.




PhillyGuy13 said:


> What is more concern to me at this point is the anger when I asked her to stop seeing this "friend" she only supposedly sees 3-4 times a year for work reasons (that no longer exist as of two weeks ago) she got really defensive and i got the "you Don't trust me speech"
> 
> I've shared this situation with three friends- a guy and two girls. The guy - my best friend- is friends with both of us and is really concerned. The two girls chalked it up to eh she was just happy for the attention and not looking to do anything.
> 
> Is as inclined to agree until our conversation a few nights ago.


And this is one of the biggest red flags. No, at this point you can't trust her. She's put her former boss above you. She's more concerned about his feelings than yours. 

Rhetorical question: WHY is he a former boss? He was replaced. Why? Think about that. And please don't tell us what she told you. 

You need to find a sitter for the kids for her next trip to Cleveland. You need to go to Cleveland when she does. Do NOT go WITH her. Just go. Monitor her texts and surprise her one evening. Most wives would be pleasantly surprised to get a visit from their beloved H while they are away on business. What do you think her reaction would be. I know, you can't leave the kids. And there is no one else in the entire world capable of watching them I suppose?

What is your marriage worth to you? How badly do you want to stay married to her? Enough to fight for her? Then fight. If not, then let her go and ready yourself to move on.


----------



## sidney2718

PhillyGuy13 said:


> I also let her know that I was rereading the texts the other day, she got very angry that I kept a pic and insisted I delete them.


I hope you didn't do that.

She mentioned earlier that by your questioning you were driving her away. What does she think she's doing to you by seeing the OM?

This looks to be a more complex situation that it seems on the surface, but my thought is that you should be decisive _before_ this becomes more serious. There is no doubt that it will become more serious since they are already planning to meet again.

Yes, this could blow up your marriage, but doing nothing is much more likely to do that. At least that's what I think.


----------



## azteca1986

The part of their convo that really bothers me is this bit:


PhillyGuy13 said:


> TKurt: next time we eat in your room. Easier to trust room service.
> Kurt: Later AP
> Anna:


Think for a minute about the purpose of hotels and the largest piece of furniture in the room (or suite). He envisages a scenario where they are alone together in her hotel room. He invites himself back to her hotel and her response in not - "not happening". He crossed a line there and he was testing the waters. Her failure to give him a firm "No!" which can still be achieved with grace and not jeopardise their "friendship" tells him one of two things - "Try harder, I'm enjoying this" or "I'm open to a scenario where 'One thing led to another" 



PhillyGuy13 said:


> She says she feels absolutely nothing for him. I asked how she felt - clearly he is coming on to you. She says it grossed her out. I said you didn't seem grossed out. She says she would never ever do anything to jeopardize our life, our marriage, or the family.


There's not a thing about their exchange that gave him the message she was grossed out. Quite the contrary.

The sad thing is she is playing with fire and her failure to shut this down brutally is jeopardising her marriage and family. That deed is already done.

I suggest you either wake her up to the reality of men and flirting or get her the book "Not Just Friends" for her to read with you both.


----------



## TDSC60

Bottom line is that she is more concerned about Kurt, his feelings, and continuing her relationship with him than she is about her husband and his feelings. What does that tell you. Her anger about you sharing your feelings on this and disabling the iPad are huge red flags that she intends to continue with Kurt and hide it from you.

Maybe she has done nothing physical at this point but it could easily turn since it seems she gets tipsy every time she goes to a bar (without you).

"You need to trust me". "I have done nothing wrong". "I do not think of him in that way". "Your insecurities and distrust are going to ruin our marriage". "I deserve my privacy". "You are controlling".

If you have not heard all these excuses, just wait a while, you will hear them. A young mother of two - gets excited about going out to bars with co-workers - has inappropriate texting that involves talk of "dinner in the bedroom next time" and "what are you wearing to bed" - a husband who gets uneasy about the relationship and is told to just "trust" her and that his reaction is ruining the marriage - this scenario has been played out many times on this board.

Now you must define YOUR boundaries. What behavior are YOU willing to accept and live with. For my wife one is zero alone time with male friends and zero alcohol if I am not present. You have to define them clearly and tell her.

She will call you controlling. Tell her that you know you can not control her and she will do what she wants. But based on her choice, then you also have a choice to make.

I told my wife my boundaries. I told her my wife would not behave in this manner out of respect for me and our marriage. She asked "What if I do not agree?" I told her that that is her choice to make - "But I will say one last time, MY WIFE will not behave in that manner". I told her it is her choice, but if she insisted on meeting male friends alone and drinking to excess then she would no longer be my wife.


----------



## BobSimmons

I'm not married, so forgive me if I'm missing something. I have a girlfriend, if another man texted her or made a pass at her, me and him would have a little chat, just so he knows what's up. 
Let me be clear, I'm ok with flirting but this man is clearly setting up a date so they can be alone..in a hotel room together. 

Once again a man suggested that to my girlfriend, him and I are meeting face to face, just so he knows if he's brave enough to go ahead and arrange the room meeting what the consequences are.

Is it me? For the life of me, another man propositions your woman and you do nothing? To be clear I'm not blaming the wife..well sort of, but it's her boss so there maybe complications but in no way shape or form could I let this slide. No way.


----------



## TDSC60

BobSimmons said:


> I'm not married, so forgive me if I'm missing something. I have a girlfriend, if another man texted her or made a pass at her, me and him would have a little chat, just so he knows what's up.
> Let me be clear, I'm ok with flirting but this man is clearly setting up a date so they can be alone..in a hotel room together.
> 
> Once again a man suggested that to my girlfriend, him and I are meeting face to face, just so he knows if he's brave enough to go ahead and arrange the room meeting what the consequences are.
> 
> Is it me? For the life of me, another man propositions your woman and you do nothing? To be clear I'm not blaming the wife..well sort of, but it's her boss so there maybe complications but in no way shape or form could I let this slide. No way.


I expect my wife to be pursued by other men. I expect her to be hit on. I expect other men to try and flirt with her. She is a beautiful, desirable woman. I do not get upset by other men chasing her - that is to be expected. It would be her inappropriate reaction or her action in response that would get me upset.

If my wife came to me and told me about a guy who would just not leave her alone - then I might have a "come to Jesus meeting" with him.


----------



## MovingAhead

BobSimmons said:


> I'm not married, so forgive me if I'm missing something. I have a girlfriend, if another man texted her or made a pass at her, me and him would have a little chat, just so he knows what's up.
> Let me be clear, I'm ok with flirting but this man is clearly setting up a date so they can be alone..in a hotel room together.
> 
> Once again a man suggested that to my girlfriend, him and I are meeting face to face, just so he knows if he's brave enough to go ahead and arrange the room meeting what the consequences are.
> 
> Is it me? For the life of me, another man propositions your woman and you do nothing? To be clear I'm not blaming the wife..well sort of, but it's her boss so there maybe complications but in no way shape or form could I let this slide. No way.


Bob, not that I disagree with you... He didn't marry her old boss. He married his Ms.Philly.

I am not above the having a talk with a guy hitting on my girl, but you married the girl... If you cannot trust her to a point then there is no marriage. She crossed the marital boundaries. Good fences make good neighbors.


----------



## just got it 55

:iagree:


azteca1986 said:


> The part of their convo that really bothers me is this bit:
> Think for a minute about the purpose of hotels and the largest piece of furniture in the room (or suite). He envisages a scenario where they are alone together in her hotel room. He invites himself back to her hotel and her response in not - "not happening". He crossed a line there and he was testing the waters. Her failure to give him a firm "No!" which can still be achieved with grace and not jeopardise their "friendship" tells him one of two things - "Try harder,* I'm enjoying this" or "I'm open to a scenario where 'One thing led to another*"
> 
> There's not a thing about their exchange that gave him the message she was grossed out. Quite the contrary.
> 
> The sad thing is she is playing with fire and her failure to shut this down brutally is jeopardising her marriage and family. That deed is already done.
> 
> I suggest you either wake her up to the reality of men and flirting or get her the book "Not Just Friends" for her to read with you both.


:iagree: Thats a big YUP


----------



## SaltInWound

BobSimmons said:


> Let me be clear, I'm ok with flirting but *this man is clearly setting up a date* so they can be alone..in a hotel room together.


Did you read the part of the text where she was setting up a date in Feb and repeated her desire for his company?


----------



## TheFlood117

Nope. Nail this to the wall. Now!!! Trust me on this one. I found a text kinda eerily like this between my ex her OM about 3 or 4 weeks before the affair began. She gave me the same stupid story. And then like a month later... Well, just check my first thread. 

You need to expose this. Your wife needs to hand all passwords for phone and social media sites. Since the day's of being able to chain a woman to the kitchen then bedroom aren't considered "proper" in society anymore. I suggest counseling. 

You need to be proactive. Not reactive. 

You have a chance her. To stop an affair from blossoming. 

Do not believe your wife. Trust your gut. 

You are correct. Where there is smoke there is almost always, fire.


----------



## CouldItBeSo

What kind of bank is it where the bosses and workers go drinking till 9 at night twice a week on work days? :scratchhead:

Well, not a bank I would store my money in.



SaltInWound said:


> He suggests they eat in her hotel room next time and she gives him a
> 
> There is something terribly wrong with that picture.


Maybe they ate in HIS room already... if they had time to eat from other activities.


----------



## InlandTXMM

BobSimmons said:


> I'm not married, so forgive me if I'm missing something. I have a girlfriend, if another man texted her or made a pass at her, me and him would have a little chat, just so he knows what's up.
> Let me be clear, I'm ok with flirting but this man is clearly setting up a date so they can be alone..in a hotel room together.
> 
> Once again a man suggested that to my girlfriend, him and I are meeting face to face, just so he knows if he's brave enough to go ahead and arrange the room meeting what the consequences are.
> 
> Is it me? For the life of me, another man propositions your woman and you do nothing? To be clear I'm not blaming the wife..well sort of, but it's her boss so there maybe complications but in no way shape or form could I let this slide. No way.


I'm also a big believer in the active c*ckblock.

Let him know his body will have to cash checks his penis writes.


----------



## TDSC60

CouldItBeSo said:


> What kind of bank is it where the bosses and workers go drinking till 9 at night twice a week on work days? :scratchhead:
> 
> Well, not a bank I would store my money in.
> 
> 
> Maybe they ate in HIS room already... if they had time to eat from other activities.


Not to put too fine a point on this but I found it confusing that they skipped dinner, got drunk and settled for bad pizza. Where were they when they got the pizza? His house?


----------



## PhillyGuy13

I searched high and low for a burner and so far haven't found one. Last contact on her cell phone was a week ago Wednesday. 

Kurt is now no longer with the bank. They had a group dinner with new boss in upstate NY, followed by a night at a country club where older coworker 65+ was bartender for a fund raiser. Kurt was not involved, but yes she did come home tipsy. This is unusual that she went out, but i chalked it up to the charity event. She was home at 9:00 and very affectionate. Almost never goes out after work.

I am assuming they didn't do anything ahead of time, since he only referenced hand holding. But maybe I'm being naive. His gf met them out at 10:00; they ordered a white pizza that was not good. This was referenced in the I'm so hungover posts the next morning.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sandc

*Re: Re: Wife's texts while she was on the road.*



CouldItBeSo said:


> What kind of bank is it where the bosses and workers go drinking till 9 at night twice a week on work days? :scratchhead:
> 
> Well, not a bank I would store my money in.
> 
> 
> Maybe they ate in HIS room already... if they had time to eat from other activities.


Pretty much like the bank I used to work at. Two affairs there that I knew of.


----------



## 6301

Boils down to this. Text messages husband. Good. Flirting with husband. Good. Going out to dinner with husband. Good. 

Text messages to another guy? Bad. Flirting with another man. Bad. Going out to dinner with another man. Bad. 

Bet you a shiny red apple that if you did what she's doing, she would not be real happy with you. 

When she goes out of town, does she drive? If so, install a GPS on her car. Matter in fact I would do that now. At least you'll know where she is.


----------



## ThePheonix

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Anna: 12:05 am lol. Hope you are around when I am back here.





PhillyGuy13 said:


> She says she feels absolutely nothing for him. I asked how she felt - clearly he is coming on to you. She says it grossed her out. I said you didn't seem grossed out. She says she would never ever do anything to jeopardize our life, our marriage, or the family.


The only thing that makes sense is if she meant, "Hope you are around when I am back here so you can hold my hand and gross me out some more." Ya, I'm sure that's it.


----------



## TRy

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Kurt: next time we eat in your room. Easier to trust room service.
> Kurt: Later AP
> Anna:
> Anna: don't forget me because you are gone now!
> Kurt: you're cute. Have a good night sweetie. Sorry I missed on dinner. Order at hotel. Next time in town let me know.


 The other man (“OM”) tells your wife that next time they will order room service and eat in her room, and your wife’s only response to this is to tell him “don’t forget me”, instead of saying that this is not going to happen? The OM then calls your wife “cute” for her “don’t forget me” response, followed by calling her “sweetie” and restating that next time they meet in her room. 



PhillyGuy13 said:


> Anna: already in bed... No dinner tonight.
> Kurt: And that is somehow hot. The dinner part my bad. But the bed part...
> Kurt: it is early now that I see it. What do you sleep in?
> Anna: seriously you are in the car with "girlfriend"
> Kurt: Umm... I am home. I live 15 minutes away. You should come hang. I will cook dinner. (I do not know if he lives with girlfriend)
> Anna: so it is "Albany College" pajama pants. Now that is TMI
> Kurt: that is cute.


 The OM continues to hit on her hard, and tries to get her to come to his home alone with him late at night; his girlfriend does not live with him which is why when your wife asked if he was with the girlfriend in the car, he made it clear that he was home without her. Your wife went along with his inappropriateness when she told him what she was sleeping in; he should not have asked such a thing, and she should not have answered.



PhillyGuy13 said:


> And I liked holding your hand. Different, now but had fun. Hope you did too. I want to see.
> Anna: to see?
> Kurt: Albany College pants
> Anna: I have to delete this conversation.


 The OM continues the non-stop hitting on her. He stated that he liked holding her hand and asked if she liked it too, which he would not have asked if she pulled away immediately like she later claimed to you. The fact that he said holding her hand was “Different, now but had fun” indicates that it was not the first time that they may have held hands. Her telling the OM that she is deleting the conversation, is telling the OM that the true nature of her relationship with the OM is to be kept a secret from you; he was thus encouraged by your wife to continue to be inappropriate with her without fear of repercussions from you. Spouses with healthy martial boundaries would never say such a thing, because they would know that they should be sharing such conversations with their spouses.

The OM is a single man that does not live with his girlfriend, that is no longer a coworker, and has clearly let your wife know that his intentions in seeing her are not honorable, yet she wants to continue to see him without you. You need to tell her that this man is not plutonic opposite sex just friends material for her, and that she must agree to full no contact with the OM going forward. You need to also tell her that going forward there needs to be full transparency between the two of you which includes both of you sharing all passwords without complaint. Remind her that that in healthy marriages that there is no need for privacy accept for when you are in the bathroom.


----------



## weightlifter

I see the eyes rolling already cause yep. WL is doing another RDMU story.

YOU DO NOT WANT TO REPEAT RDMU

Poster RDMU came here with a few red flags that ended up being a full affair.

Abridged version.

One of their friends was the proverbial fox in the henhouse. He worked RDMU's wife for NINE MONTHS before bedding her. Different flavor but same thing. Befriend>Work boundaries>test> until your in.

DO NOT REPEAT RDMU

one day YOUR WIFE will be the drunk one, or pizzed off at you. You are already weak in the sex department.

CRUSH THIS NOW CRUSH THIS HARD CRUSH THIS COMPLETELY!

Inland is right. He calls it something different than what I learned it as but this guy is HITTING ON YOUR WIFE. This player method is so easy I could teach it to you in 20 minutes if you are median looks or above, Work 10 women, even if you are mediocre you will be bedding two of them in 3 months. If you are good it will be 3 of the 10.

Dude you have a chance. You have no idea how much MORE it will hurt when you learn another man has put his load inside YOUR WIFE.


----------



## weightlifter

This is a post by doubletrouble that is the closest to posting what it feels like. IMHO a masterpiece.

Dude you have a chance. The reason you are getting so many posts is because we see the oncoming train and we are BEGGING YOU TO GET OFF THE TRACKS!

Credit below doubletrouble

>I can tell you a few things about that from a male BS standpoint. 

Echoing what wl just said, you cannot say you're sorry often enough. Keep saying it. AND follow up with real change, real actions. 

The mind movies of her being with another man are something that runs through my head EVERY DAY. Every day when I see the same model car, hear his name randomly on the radio or during my business day, and other triggers I won't go into for various reasons... they all put my mind back in that bed, with her naked and wet, him naked and hard, taking what was supposed to be mine. She gave it willingly, thoroughly, completely, and then wrote to him what it was like to be in such a realtionship where she loved him so much. 

At that point with her I had NOTHING of what I thought I did. I was oblivious at the time, and she never told me. I had to find out. They did it in OUR bed, and since I was traveling at the time, I arrived the next day. His sperm wasn't even dead inside her before she accepted mine as well. That bites, in ways I can't even describe. It's the biggest betrayal, the biggest hit on my manhood and sexuality, as a provider and ALL the roles I take on as head of the family. That guy came in and stole it all... no, she gave it all to him in those moments. 

And it's not just the moments of sex, which are bad enough. To know what was being said between the two of them, and knowing he was married anyway, so just grabbing a free piece of ass at MY expense -- it's utter destruction of my heart. 

I could write on and on, because it goes on and on, but maybe that can give you a flavor of what you've done to your husband in those moments of gonad-driven stupidity and utter irresponsibility. You should be ashamed, you should be contrite, you should apologize over and over, and you must do all the heavy lifting because it was your CHOICE to spread 'em for some strange. 

And I tell her: I hope it was worth it. <


----------



## illwill

Are you still with her??????


----------



## MattMatt

What is not wanted is your wife sobbing to you saying: "You were right! Kurt slipped something into my drink and he raped me!"

And Kurt would never do that, right? Yes Kurt bloody-well would. Because that's what Kurt is.


----------



## BobSimmons

TDSC60 said:


> I expect my wife to be pursued by other men. I expect her to be hit on. I expect other men to try and flirt with her. She is a beautiful, desirable woman. I do not get upset by other men chasing her - that is to be expected. It would be her inappropriate reaction or her action in response that would get me upset.
> 
> If my wife came to me and told me about a guy who would just not leave her alone - then I might have a "come to Jesus meeting" with him.


Absolutely. Flirting within reason is fine. Indeed many couples who have trust in each other,may have boundaries that other people would blush at, but they know nothing will ever happen because they won't ever take it past a certain point.

The question posed here is, have boundaries been established from the go? A man will test the waters, if allowed to do so, keep pushing and keep going further until he gets what he wants. The wife may have been "uncomfortable" but she didn't exactly lay the law down did she? In fact she encouraged him by framing the next time they meet..even after the man made it clear it would be just the two of them and possibly in a hotel room. Then she said she had to delete the conversation which most probably had been kept secret had OP not stumbled upon it. 

On top of that she disconnected the phone from ipad.

Flirting ok. This is not flirting. This is two adults taking the conversation very slowly in a certain direction where the conclusion rests on one possibility. And it's not eating pizza.

So with this in mind, he needs to make it clear to her and the boss he won't stand for this.


----------



## LongWalk

Does she sleep in Albany College pajama pants with you? I would find them and chuck them out. Don't say a word.


----------



## Satya

*Re: Re: Wife's texts while she was on the road.*



weightlifter said:


> DO NOT BE RDMU


Weightlifter, I truly appreciate the helpful advice you give BS's here, but this message is almost crossing the line into shaming from my viewpoint. I understand the level of involvement you had in his story and that your purpose has always been one of help and education. 

There may be many, including you, that do not agree with RDMU's actions or choices (or the outcome), but the choices were his to make. Saying "don't be like this person" is not the kind of advice we should be offering. 

Apologies for my derail, and no offense to anyone intended, especially you, Weightlifter. I hope you understand my feelings. I don't often have time to post as much as I'd like, but I very much support TAM as a place that has offered an eye opening, supportive stance on human nature in general.


----------



## InlandTXMM

My wife, even with unwanted attention, sometimes has a hard time shutting it down. She's in many ways the female equivalent of a Nice Guy.

That's why I advocate so strongly that the man step in and deal with it, swiftly and decisively. In many cases, the wives are in Dopamine-land and just don't knock it down hard enough for an "other man" to take the hint. 

During the time my wife went ga-ga for her younger single co-worker, three other men she DIDN'T have interest in started texting her. She would politely decline invitations to go have drinks or dinner, and all these guys would do is ratchet up the effort.

It was only when I stepped in, and told each one, "Man to man, I know what you're doing. It's not innocent. Back the f*ck away from my family," they all immediately did so. None of them even gave a rebuttal or tried to profess their innocence.


----------



## Hardtohandle

BobSimmons said:


> Absolutely. Flirting within reason is fine. Indeed many couples who have trust in each other,may have boundaries that other people would blush at, but they know nothing will ever happen because they won't ever take it past a certain point.
> 
> The question posed here is, have boundaries been established from the go? A man will test the waters, if allowed to do so, keep pushing and keep going further until he gets what he wants. The wife may have been "uncomfortable" but she didn't exactly lay the law down did she? In fact she encouraged him by framing the next time they meet..even after the man made it clear it would be just the two of them and possibly in a hotel room. Then she said she had to delete the conversation which most probably had been kept secret had OP not stumbled upon it.
> 
> On top of that she disconnected the phone from ipad.
> 
> Flirting ok. This is not flirting. This is two adults taking the conversation very slowly in a certain direction where the conclusion rests on one possibility. And it's not eating pizza.
> 
> So with this in mind, he needs to make it clear to her and the boss he won't stand for this.


I whole heartedly agree with this..

I think everyone expects the opposite sex to flirt with their significant other.. There is NOTHING you can do about it.. Someone is going to hit on your woman or man.. 
Welcome to Planet Earth.. 

But it matters what your significant other does or how they address this situation that really matters.. 

I don't think anyone would or should expect their S.O. to be some sort of crazy savage and just immediately rip off the other persons head. Even if we know it was wrong. 

But I would expect a simple *"Look I appreciate the complements and such, but you are crossing some lines here.. I would like to be friendly with you, but NEVER, EVER anything like your insinuating or asking.. So please stop it.. I am going chaulk it up to you being drunk and nothing more. We can talk tomorrow if you like, good night"*

Now that saying/statement/line might not be perfect but I think everyone gets the point.. You don't need to go scorched earth on someone, but let them know they went over *"That Line".*

Now unless you have something more than just this.. You're lucky.. She had a slight poor judgement call and you hit her hard for it. 

You need to punish but give someone a chance to atone.. I've seen some people post about still persecuting their spouses 3 years after the affair. 

Philly, think about exactly what you want out of this.. Think of the future moments and give her clear directions on what you need to see this fixed.. 

Then fix this and move on with your lives and your marriage..


----------



## lenzi

PhillyGuy13 said:


> I've thought about hiring a PI. I've thought about buying recorders to hide in her bag, but she will be gone for 2-3 days so the battery will die.


VARs only record when there's conversation. Get a good set of high powered batteries, they'll go the distance.

Not sure how you'd hide it in her bag without her finding it though. If she discovers them, she'll go ballistic. She doesn't think she's doing anything wrong.


----------



## weightlifter

Sat... OK point taken... a bit. and modded... a bit. Sometimes I am a bit terse. I changed one word.

I see the same road in this guys wife and it scares the pizz out of me.

We are begging him to 'get off the railroad tracks.'

BTW he would say the same thing. He does not get a do over. That first RDMU inappropriate was June 2011. This OP is at the equivalent of that date. I just don't want to see his marriage take the same path. This is an EA and it will shake him. It pales in comparison of a PA. For the great majority the pain is far worse if it takes that path.


----------



## MrK

LongWalk said:


> Pizza is a typical sex fuel.


:scratchhead:


----------



## aug

MattMatt said:


> What is not wanted is your wife sobbing to you saying: "You were right! Kurt slipped something into my drink and he raped me!"
> 
> And Kurt would never do that, right? Yes Kurt bloody-well would. Because that's what Kurt is.


Matt, if Kurt did that then it appears she's okay with that. And is going back for more.


----------



## ironman

Philly,

Your wife seems to have some serious boundary issues. Initially I felt you should be willing to give her the benefit of the doubt, but the more of her behavior you have revealed, the more I believe she is somewhat emotionally immature and/or not vested in protecting her marriage. In fact, she she's seems to be "shopping around" for some side-action.

As a few others have hinted, I believe your best course of action is to take charge and law down the law with her. Be very clear that her behavior is out of line for a married woman and will not be tolerated. You also need to be very clear that there are consequences for her behavior ... namely the loss of her marriage and family.

Now here's where many men go wrong ... you have to "mean it" and follow through with all of the above. In other words, you have to be "the man". If you are Mr. Nice Guy and not the kind of guy who wears the pants in the family then you are going to struggle with my suggestion and most likely she's going to cheat on you eventually anyway. If that's the case .. best of luck to you.

PS: Why the hell is she going out drinking with other men without you present? Seriously .. you're ok with that? Charity my ass.


----------



## bfree

PhillyGuy13;5772146
she sometimes needed to feel like she felt before kids.  Where for a few hours she doesn't have to worry about being a mother. [/QUOTE said:


> This is a noteworthy statement. People can fall into this trap very easily. I can see her falling into an affair because she wants to feel like she felt when she was single. No responsibilites, no children, no husband. Be careful here.


----------



## just got it 55

bfree said:


> This is a noteworthy statement. People can fall into this trap very easily. I can see her falling into an affair because she wants to feel like she felt when she was single. No responsibilites, no children, no husband. Be careful here.


:iagree:

I see this IRL with my niece and her husband they have 4 boys and a disgruntled MIL in the house.

Real trouble ahead

55


----------



## shaung

Your wife has been dating this guy, and doing so behind your back. She has been consciously covering her tracks and letting the other man know that she is doing so. They thought it was their little secret. He has been sexually suggestive to her and her response is to giggle...all in secret behind your back while you sit at home. 

It's dating, pure and simple. End it.


----------



## MattMatt

aug said:


> Matt, if Kurt did that then it appears she's okay with that. And is going back for more.


I think she might be playing games with Kurt. *But Kurt might not be playing the same games as she is*.

But she is the author of her own destruction and the destruction of her marriage.


----------



## CouldItBeSo

I wonder if he's Kurt Wagner?


----------



## BobSimmons

MattMatt said:


> I think she might be playing games with Kurt. *But Kurt might not be playing the same games as she is*.
> 
> But she is the author of her own destruction and the destruction of her marriage.


From the sentiment of the texts and the way OM is speaking, he's making it clear he's not playing games. They're fixing to meet up and have drinks alone then go to a hotel. That's not game playing or flirting. She's reciprocating his advances. She's very aware of what she's doing. Author of her own destruction she definitely is.


----------



## Chaparral

BrickHouse Security | Home Security Camera Systems | GPS Surveillance

Pen voice recorder 80 bucks. Posters that have used it say its great. Just drop in purse, really works as a pen too. Odds are most women will not see it in the bottom of a purse.

Cheaters love to talk in a car when they know no one can hear them. LOL that's why he needs to put one under her seat. They will general turn down the radio to talk on the phone.


----------



## lifeistooshort

As a woman I agree with most of the posts here. She is enjoying and on some level encouraging the attention. She may not at this point intend to go through with an affair but I do think part of her is contemplating it, perhaps as a fantasy at this point. Unfortunately this is a slippery slope and before you know it she'll be crying that she had a ons/she's sorry/etc, assuming you get anything at that point. You'd better draw and enforce some boundaries now, while the damage is minimal. This is how many affairs start, and you're fortunate to know about it at this point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## weightlifter

lifeistooshort said:


> As a woman I agree with most of the posts here. She is enjoying and on some level encouraging the attention. She may not at this point intend to go through with an affair but I do think part of her is contemplating it, perhaps as a fantasy at this point. Unfortunately this is a slippery slope and before you know it she'll be crying that she had a ons/she's sorry/etc, assuming you get anything at that point. You'd better draw and enforce some boundaries now, while the damage is minimal. This is how many affairs start, and you're fortunate to know about it at this point.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Quoted for truth.


----------



## weightlifter

Chaparral said:


> BrickHouse Security | Home Security Camera Systems | GPS Surveillance
> 
> Pen voice recorder 80 bucks. Posters that have used it say its great. Just drop in purse, really works as a pen too. Odds are most women will not see it in the bottom of a purse.
> 
> Cheaters love to talk in a car when they know no one can hear them. LOL that's why he needs to put one under her seat. They will general turn down the radio to talk on the phone.


Agree with all axcept the turn down the radio part. Inevitably something important is said while the radio news guy is blabbing.


----------



## ThePheonix

BobSimmons said:


> From the sentiment of the texts and the way OM is speaking, he's making it clear he's not playing games. They're fixing to meet up and have drinks alone then go to a hotel. That's not game playing or flirting. She's reciprocating his advances. She's very aware of what she's doing. Author of her own destruction she definitely is.


Back in the day when a chick would tell me she wanted to meet up with me ("Hope you are around when I am back here") after I made it crystal clear I wanted to get in her pants, I was home free. My money is on this guy scoring.


----------



## JustPuzzled

BobSimmons said:


> From the sentiment of the texts and the way OM is speaking, he's making it clear he's not playing games. They're fixing to meet up and have drinks alone then go to a hotel. That's not game playing or flirting. She's reciprocating his advances. She's very aware of what she's doing. Author of her own destruction she definitely is.


Yoda, is that you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SaltInWound

JustPuzzled said:


> Yoda, is that you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:rofl:


----------



## lordmayhem

InlandTXMM said:


> I'm also a big believer in the active c*ckblock.
> 
> Let him know his body will have to cash checks his penis writes.


:iagree:

It's a husband's natural right and duty to c0ck block. It's called protecting your marriage.


----------



## lordmayhem

PhillyGuy13 said:


> We have iOS 7.0 iPhones and from everything I can tell none of that spyware is compatible yet believe me I've looked.
> 
> Not that I want to sound like I'm defending her but she didn't delete ANYTHING until after I confronted her. I don't think she would have picked and choosen what to delete before hand, she would have deleted the whole convo before she got home.


There is only one way to find out: Check the backup files of the iphones and the iPad. Go to the computer which she syncs the phone and iPad to. iTunes creates a backup file whenever the iphone and ipad is synced to it. Its this backup file that you can possibly retrieve deleted texts. 

There are several programs you can use to access the backup files...and you don't have to jail break the phone or install spyware....yet. The only drawback is that if she decides to go deeper underground and use a texting app that uses data only, then the texts will not be stored in the backup file. But lets assume for now, that she's not using a cheater texting app yet. 

*Decipher TextMessage*

How to save / export SMS messages to your computer. Windows or Mac. Decipher TextMessage.










*iPhone Backup Extractor*

iPhone Backup Extractor for Windows and Mac










*MobileSyncBrowser
for Mac + PC*

MobileSyncBrowser | View and Recover your iPhone data










*Wondershare Data Recovery for iTunes*

Wondershare Dr.Fone for iOS (Mac): Mac iPhone Data Recovery | OFFICIAL


----------



## Nujabes

Is OP getting intimidated by our advice here?

If you're reading OP, we're here to help not to bash or super criticize your decision, though if you made a wrong one we'll probably have to.

All we're saying is there are red flags and from experiences of stories we've seen come and go here on TAM, we've seen and heard similar ones like yours and helping you out before it gets out of control. So don't be shy and update us a little bit.



EDIT - It's been 2 days since his last post, I feel like it was a week. Probably too much free time on my hands with them turkeys.


----------



## InlandTXMM

BobSimmons said:


> From the sentiment of the texts and the way OM is speaking, he's making it clear he's not playing games. They're fixing to meet up and have drinks alone then go to a hotel. That's not game playing or flirting. She's reciprocating his advances. She's very aware of what she's doing. Author of her own destruction she definitely is.


Totally agree. Women play this game better than we do. I often need a 2X4 across the head to see a woman flirting with me. But my wife can see it immediately. Women know; they know it's not innocent, but they mistakenly believe they can pull themselves back from the brink, so it's okay to walk up to it.

But a strong, confident OM will eventually get what he wants. It's biology.


----------



## lordmayhem

InlandTXMM said:


> Totally agree. Women play this game better than we do. I often need a 2X4 across the head to see a woman flirting with me. But my wife can see it immediately. Women know; they know it's not innocent, but they mistakenly believe they can pull themselves back from the brink, so it's okay to walk up to it.
> 
> But a strong, confident OM will eventually get what he wants. It's biology.


:iagree:

That's the disturbing, common denominator in all these affairs, and how they start. The WS does NOT immediately shoot this guy down. Instead, she goes along with it and tries to hide it and even makes plans to meet this guy in the future. Next thing you know its a PA. Then the excuse will be: We didn't mean for it to happen, it just did. 

This is why a BS should never believe that an affair was a simple mistake. Affairs take planning and secret communication. A mistake is making a left turn when you meant to make a right turn. An affair is a calculated, deliberate series of decisions. 

The problem I see here is this person's very low boundaries. If she doesn't see anything wrong with what she did, then she's ripe for an affair. It may not be with this guy since he caught it before it could progress to a PA. But what about the future?


----------



## Hicks

This cannot be about her definition of things. It has to be about yours.

Her: "I would never jeapordize the marriage" You: "You already did that".

Her: "I still want to see him again" You: "Can you tell me why you would want anything to do with a man who only wants to hit on you?"


----------



## weightlifter

InlandTXMM said:


> Totally agree. Women play this game better than we do. I often need a 2X4 across the head to see a woman flirting with me. But my wife can see it immediately. Women know; they know it's not innocent, but they mistakenly believe they can pull themselves back from the brink, so it's okay to walk up to it.
> 
> But a strong, confident OM will eventually get what he wants. It's biology.


Quoted for truth. I got NOTHING in my twenties. Now being a not fat mid forties with all my hair... NOTHING special about me other than that. Once a female coworker pointed out the signs I was like holy sh!t. I had a real bad (good?) one a couple weeks ago at work. Hair twirling and everything. It got to the point I started subtly clicking my wedding ring on my IPAD. She finally got the hint and stopped. Wierd. She may well have meant nothing by it but still... brinksmanship.


----------



## Racer

If he’s still reading, this one is fairly simple. You need to tell your wife that while she wants him to just be a friend, he decided he wants to be more. It’s not fair, it’s not cool, but it’s the reality. So that means she’ll be tested over and over and he won’t be satisfied with only a friendship. It also means he doesn’t respect her marriage to you at all.

And because she didn’t shut him down hard, that door is cracked. This is a problem now. This is not a friend of the marriage or you anymore. He chose his path. You marriage has another path. It sucks for her, be sympathetic to that, but she wouldn’t be any more comfortable with you hanging out with some other female who has made it known she wants to have sex with you. It isn’t that you aren’t trustworthy, it’s that this ‘wants to be more than’ friend is not.

If she wants to test this marriage, it’s a good place to start poisoning it. Is that what she wants? Sucks she got this dumped on her by him, but it is what it is and she can’t ‘undo’ it or ignore it.


----------



## tom67

Racer said:


> If he’s still reading, this one is fairly simple. You need to tell your wife that while she wants him to just be a friend, he decided he wants to be more. It’s not fair, it’s not cool, but it’s the reality. So that means she’ll be tested over and over and he won’t be satisfied with only a friendship. It also means he doesn’t respect her marriage to you at all.
> 
> And because she didn’t shut him down hard, that door is cracked. This is a problem now. This is not a friend of the marriage or you anymore. He chose his path. You marriage has another path. It sucks for her, be sympathetic to that, but she wouldn’t be any more comfortable with you hanging out with some other female who has made it known she wants to have sex with you. It isn’t that you aren’t trustworthy, it’s that this ‘wants to be more than’ friend is not.
> 
> If she wants to test this marriage, it’s a good place to start poisoning it. Is that what she wants? Sucks she got this dumped on her by him, but it is what it is and she can’t ‘undo’ it or ignore it.


:iagree::iagree:


----------



## bfree

Like racer said, friends have to be friends of the marriage else they are enemies of the marriage. It's just that simple.


----------



## Jellybeans

He wants to bang your wife


----------



## Jellybeans

*BobSimmons *

_From the sentiment of the texts and the way OM is speaking, he's making it clear he's not playing games. They're fixing to meet up and have drinks alone then go to a hotel. That's not game playing or flirting. She's reciprocating his advances. She's very aware of what she's doing*. Author of her own destruction she definitely is.*_



JustPuzzled said:


> Yoda, is that you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:rofl: Love it! Excellent!


----------



## missthelove2013

She didnt discourage him at all...doesnt mean she wants to bang him YET, but she is open to and enjoying the attention/flirting...bad boundries...

she refered to his girlfriend as "girlfriend"...not your girlfriend in the text...clearly she was downplaying her...that stuck out to me...

she is open to what their relationship currently is...the beginnings of an EA...she probably doesnt even know how far she will allow it to go...if it were me, she cut this ass hole out of her life NOW or I treat it as an affair and act accordingly


----------



## InlandTXMM

lordmayhem said:


> :iagree:
> 
> That's the disturbing, common denominator in all these affairs, and how they start. The WS does NOT immediately shoot this guy down. Instead, she goes along with it and tries to hide it and even makes plans to meet this guy in the future. Next thing you know its a PA. Then the excuse will be: We didn't mean for it to happen, it just did.


Oh Lord, the dreaded "One Thing Led To Another".

Except one thing DOESN'T lead to another without conscious decision-making and effort.


----------



## thummper

Hey, Phillyguy. It's been awhile. Any updates on your situation with your wife and her, uh, "friend"? Any more trips to Cleveland? I reread a text from InlandTex where he mentions making it clear to other guys who were relentlessly hitting on his wife to "back the fvck off!" and they apparently did. Have YOU contacted the other guy and confronted him with his texts to YOUR wife and told him the same thing? "Hey, Kurt, that's my wife you're trying to bed! Back the fvck off!" Let the sorry conniving POS know that you're on to his little game. That maybe your wife thinks it's all innocent, but you know better. And she needs to understand the thin ice she's skating on. If she truly doesn't want to do anything to jeopardize her family, she'd better back off and leave this sneaky POS alone before something DOES happen and you dump her. She'd better realize that her "friendship" with this slimeball is seriously affecting her marriage and her relationship with you.


----------



## happyman64

You ok PG?


----------



## weightlifter

lordmayhem said:


> :iagree:
> 
> That's the disturbing, common denominator in all these affairs, and how they start. The WS does NOT immediately shoot this guy down. Instead, she goes along with it and tries to hide it and even makes plans to meet this guy in the future. Next thing you know its a PA. Then the excuse will be: We didn't mean for it to happen, it just did.
> 
> This is why a BS should never believe that an affair was a simple mistake. Affairs take planning and secret communication. A mistake is making a left turn when you meant to make a right turn. An affair is a calculated, deliberate series of decisions.
> 
> The problem I see here is this person's very low boundaries. If she doesn't see anything wrong with what she did, then she's ripe for an affair. It may not be with this guy since he caught it before it could progress to a PA. But what about the future?


True that. Players work MULTIPLE women at the same time. The women who sort of respond... Players try subtly time after time then wedge in either though a rough patch or boundary moving. Its a sick game but many are damn good at it. They can be patient because they are already banging 2 other mens wives. The ones they are working are just the replacements for the ones who get caught or feel guilty and stop.

The woman makes that subtle decision to walk a bit on the bad side of boundaries then more then more and soon the player has his in... literally.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

I'm here. Been reading from a distance periodically. Most of you have been very helpful. 

It's been about 6 weeks since the trip to Cleveland. There has been no contact that I can see since I demanded she cut off all contact. I've checked our cell phone bill and her phone often - seems to be no contact. Of course she could talk to him on work line or work email and I wouldn't know. That said even when we were just dating she would always be "strictly professional" on her work phone and email. I also searched high and low for a "burner" came up empty. I found many email accounts that she had over the years - all just shopping related though. Searched the browser histories on her work computer, personal computer, iphone and ipad. Nothing on there.

We've both been trying to make more of an effort for each other, as best we can with a 3 yo and 5 yo at home. Dinner out, late night take-out, drinks. Our intimacy time is up to 1-2 a week over the past several weeks, up from 1-2 a month. I know conspiracy theorists may say this is part of her plan to throw me off the scent. We will see.

She has been apologetic, didn't mean to hurt me, etc etc. I am the only man she has had or wants, now and forever. Everyday is better for me at least. A month ago I wasn't sleeping. The test will be the next Cleveland trip. She has promised she wouldn't contact him. They no longer work together so have no reason to meet. Next Cleveland trip was supposed to be early Feb, so will be extra vigilent then.


----------



## CH

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Next Cleveland trip was supposed to be early Feb, so will be extra vigilent then.


Ask to go with her to make it a get away trip and see what she says. My wife does that all the time when I have to go out of town for a trip. I always say, fine, more fun time for me to help relieve some stress from work


----------



## weightlifter

I would do a search mid Jan 2014 then another mid Feb 2014. Note not quite so extensive as before.

Past there I would do another search say May 15 then one Oct 15 2014.

Holidays are lesser affair times.

Between those times just keep your radar up at half power. Its possible you have shut it down. Its possible she meant nothing bad and tested boundaries and will never do it again. Also understand the nature of a player which this guy may well be. Players are a patient lot and will periodically go fishing.

There are numerous cases on here where a player probed and probed and probed and waited months of subtle probing and won into the pants of a married woman simply by subtle persistance... combined with the simple fact that many women LOVE attention.


----------



## TDSC60

You need to make it clear to her that she is not to respond when he attempts to contact her - and he will. Didn't she tell him that she would return in February and to hold the date open?

Expect him to try to contact her to confirm the date and her intention to "hang" with him.


----------



## LongWalk

Good job. Happy New Year!

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Thanks again folks happy holidays to all.

Yes she had given him save the dates and I do expect him to reach out to her. However the dates she gave him now are incorrect- company changed the meeting. So a good test will be when he reaches out to her. If he somehow knows the "new" dates- well that answers all my questions lol.

And others mentioned me c0ckblocking him. If/when he does reach out to her again, he will hear from me - very publicly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## thummper

Keep us posted Philly. You got a bunch of guys over here sitting on pins and needles hoping for a happy ending for you two. Hope you had a happy Christmas with your little family. Love those two little ones. I can tell you from experience that they'll grow up unbelievably fast.


----------



## thummper

Oh, and as far as Kurt is concerned, give him hell.


----------



## MattMatt

thummper said:


> Oh, and as far as Kurt is concerned, give him hell.


Let Kurt's employer give him hell. If he has dropped interest in your wife it is because another female colleague has decided to fall for his line.

Time to report him to Human Resources and/or have him on www.Cheaterville.com.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Wife got word yesterday from her job to schedule the Cleveland trip. She told me, I tensed up.

Got the "you need to trust me" speech.

I explained I want to trust you, but after the texts I need to be careful. More apologies, more statements that I am the only man she loves and wants to be with. The thought of being with another man makes her sick.

I said you promised not to contact him, and if he contacts you I am to be notified. She agreed. She then tried defending him again, that he was really drunk and doesn't even remember what he texted her. They had spoken for (supposedly) final time on the next week, work related. She says he told her about a job interview he was having, which was the same story he told her the week before, which proves he was really drunk since he doesn't remember telling her the first time. I said, listen, I have married guy friends, and while they are great friends (to me), most of them step out on their wives. One track minds. she said just because my friends are like that doesn't mean everyone is. I agree, but I think this guy is...

Anyway, I think I trust her. But seeing is believing. We will see what happens in Cleveland.


----------



## thummper

This is unusual for me. Your sweetie is NOT my wife, so why am I sitting here with a lump in my gut? ! God, I hope she doesn't mess up on her trip! I think a lot of us here have taken quite a shine to you, Philly, and we're upset that YOU'RE upset. Hang in there and keep good thoughts.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Thanks Thummper, I think things are going to work out. I'm hoping this incident scared her as much as me. I've never been known for my patience and coupled with a bit of OCD it's all been driving me nuts.

There's a lot of good people on this site, many with situations much more horrible than mine. My story seems much more tame than most, so I appreciate everyone's support.


----------



## workindad

Her response to defend him after everything is troubling. 

I hope I'm wrong.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Agreed. Told her I didn't want to hear it. And again stressed there is to be ZERO contact.


----------



## vi_bride04

Have you guys read "Not just friends" yet?

I agree her defending him is troubling. Means she didn't think the boundary crossing he did was over the line...b/c he was "drunk"...

Hopefully she behaves herself and gives you transparency.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

I hope she gives me transparency as well, but I will also be creating my own transparency...


----------



## VFW

Trust is something that is earned. You need to stick to the old Ronald Reagan theory, "trust but verify". Transparency is what allows you to gain trust in her, blind trust is a fools game.


----------



## weightlifter

Ugh why did my bp jump 10 points when i read another trip. Cause we have gijeffro thread active. Short version. Players wait and probe and probe and probe and probe.


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## PhillyGuy13

And I explained to her how he is a predator, after one thing only. She agreed not to contact him, and report any contact he initiates. She still is upset about my trust issues. She says she would be able to handle him no matter what, so me forbidding her is me not trusting her. I said trust needs to be re-earned. So yes I have issues right now. 

Luckily Hall and Oates will be chaperoning.


----------



## Philat

PhillyGuy13 said:


> And I explained to her how he is a predator, after one thing only. She agreed not to contact him, and report any contact he initiates. She still is upset about my trust issues. She says she would be able to handle him no matter what, so me forbidding her is me not trusting her. I said trust needs to be re-earned. So yes I have issues right now.
> 
> Luckily Hall and Oates will be chaperoning.


Someone elsewhere on TAM put it well: You do not have to prove your trust, but she (in view of the texting) has to prove her trustworthiness. To be fair to her, it sounds like she's doing a pretty good job. But the acid test still lies ahead.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

PhillyGuy13 said:


> And I explained to her how he is a predator, after one thing only. She agreed not to contact him, and report any contact he initiates. She still is upset about my trust issues. She says she would be able to handle him no matter what, so me forbidding her is me not trusting her. I said trust needs to be re-earned. So yes I have issues right now.
> 
> Luckily Hall and Oates will be chaperoning.


Regardless of what "really' happens, or doesn't - The fact of the matter is, You Will Never Be 100% Certain of anything that happens, or doesn't happen.

This really bothers me. How much is it going to bother you?...


----------



## verpin zal

PhillyGuy13 said:


> And I explained to her how he is a predator, after one thing only. She agreed not to contact him, and report any contact he initiates. She still is upset about my trust issues. *She says she would be able to handle him no matter what*, so me forbidding her is me not trusting her. I said trust needs to be re-earned. So yes I have issues right now.
> 
> Luckily Hall and Oates will be chaperoning.


Quote from your second post:

"she said she is sorry she made a really poor decision. Says they both had way too much to drink."

Ask her to define "handling". If nicely.


----------



## Nucking Futs

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Luckily Hall and Oates will be chaperoning.


Good. I would hope that with the emphasis you've placed on this issue that she wouldn't try something this trip but it's good to be ready to catch anything that does happen.


----------



## crazyace

Dear Phil, your wife is upset that you dont trust her and rightly so.. There has to be trust in the marriage. You have to trust your wife, that she is not stepping outside .. but how would you ..do that when on the last trip she was flirting with this guy and you caught it. Its ina pporpriate for a married woman. She accepts it was a mistake and slip up. So ofc she is prone to slip ups and mistakes. what if she does something more stupid and commits a greater mistake ? There is always the possiblity ...
So point is ... the guy is fishing for more, he is out to get her .. and saw that she is interested (a little at least..) in their last conversation. He would try more. Your wife slipped a little (made a bad decision), so she is prone to doing it again. or doing it if this was not caught.
Your wife needs to understand this, and instead of blaming you for not trusting her , apologise for her slip-up and make sure she can earn your trust. Open all communications to you and you to her ..
There are no secrets in a marriage !


----------



## jnj express

Like it or not, and even with spying---you have a problem

You need to KILL the Cleveland trip----she may not like it, and you may look bad for doing so---but what is peace of mind worth to you----I promise you, you have already lost your carefree mindset---and whether you like it or not---your sub--conscious, is gonna be up and working on you from the minute she leaves---and from that point on---for much of your future life

You already know, they have a rendezvous planned---no matter what she says about denying contact with him----she keeps fighting you on the matter


She defends him, she fights you on your lack of trust, where she herself should admit accountability, and be remorseful, even as to causing you to lose trust

Bottom line----she is going to Cleveland---and YOU WILL NOT KNOW WHAT IS REALLY ACTUALLY GOING ON---and you will never know----do you think you are gonna slide thru not knowing-----there is no way in he*l your sub--conscious is gonna let this slide!!!!!

It boils down to this---if she goes---your Mge is in deep water---no matter what you are doing now----all the work you are putting in---if she goes, it is down the drain----she can check in all the time--but even while checking in---he could be right there in the room with her

She seems to be somewhat of a heavy drinker---you better believe out there on her own, she will drink----he will find her---you better believe that also---and they WILL HOOK-UP

You may want to ignore my post---but you better believe what I say----has a very high % of being accurate-------I don't care what you do, or how you do it---DO NOT ALLOW HER TO GO TO CLEVELAND-----

Boils down to what is more important---your mge, or her job??
---your family and kids, well being and future, or her job??----she has already proven she cannot be trusted, ---she flirts and breaks boundaries--------what do you think is gonna happen in feb, in Cleveland when she has a few to many, and he finds her----or do you intend to tell her she can't drink, and she is to stay locked up in her hotel room----EVERY POST YOU HAVE WRITTEN WHERE YOUR WIFE HAS GONE OUT---SHE HAS GOTTEN SH*T FACED----WHAT IS GONNA STOP THAT FROM HAPPENING IN CLEVELAND---you telling her not to-------DO NOT LET HER GO----have her call in sick, you can slide this as much as you want--if you do---as I said before---your mge is gonna take one very HARD HIT!!!!!!


----------



## Nucking Futs

jnj express said:


> Bottom line----she is going to Cleveland---and *YOU WILL NOT KNOW WHAT IS REALLY ACTUALLY GOING ON*---and you will never know----do you think you are gonna slide thru not knowing-----there is no way in he*l your sub--conscious is gonna let this slide!!!!!


It seems you missed the hall and oats reference. Maybe this will help.


----------



## jnj express

I saw the P I reference--------so what---if they catch her doing something out of line---how does that help the mge------if she gets caught doing something out of line---how does that help the kids from having to be in split homes, as in D.--------

One way to MAKE SURE---nothing goes on----SHE DOES NOT GO


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## PhillyGuy13

I appreciate the perspective but forbidding her from going away for work isn't feasible. I'm not going into details of her job here, but she provides training to large groups of coworkers. If I forbid her from going I'm essentially asking her to throw her career away and she would resent me for that. 

If a job change down the road is merited, so be it. Right now I have her word she isn't going to see him. Ball is in her court. She will behave or I'm out. Blowing up my family's home and finances before then isn't wise either.


----------



## thummper

You're a good man for giving her a chance to prove to you that she merits your trust, Philly. Knowing what's at stake, and most likely being a pretty smart lady (to get to the position she holds) I think she'll be VERY careful to do the right thing. She may be tempted to contact Kurt, since they've been friends for some time, but I firmly believe she will honor your request for NC. I'm pulling for you two.


----------



## weightlifter

Unfortunately knowing would cost 500 a night.

How long is the conference? How often are they?


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## PhillyGuy13

Basically 2 nights. Day and a half of meetings, no free night at the end this time around luckily. She can't drink the night before meetings, and flies home right after the meeting ends. Last time she didn't fly out til the next morning,,so she had a free night.

She has to go out there 2-3 times a year. I see what you are saying, what about the next time? I will see how we do in February, and evaluate for next time as the months go along. Sucky way to have to live.


----------



## MrK

I skimmed this, but her defending him worries me. It means, minimum, she doesn't really understand that he wants to bang her. But that seems improbable to me. So she's lying about that?

You have to trust her on this trip. It seems there is no choice. But verify, if possible.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Trust but verify... My new motto.


----------



## theroad

PhillyGuy13 said:


> I appreciate the perspective but forbidding her from going away for work isn't feasible. I'm not going into details of her job here, but she provides training to large groups of coworkers. If I forbid her from going I'm essentially asking her to throw her career away and she would resent me for that.
> 
> If a job change down the road is merited, so be it. Right now I have her word she isn't going to see him. Ball is in her court. She will behave or I'm out. Blowing up my family's home and finances before then isn't wise either.


And you believe this?

Well the check is in the mail, and when a man says to a woman that he will not.....

Want to buy a bridge in Brooklyn?


----------



## theroad

MrK said:


> I skimmed this, but her defending him worries me. It means, minimum, she doesn't really understand that he wants to bang her. But that seems improbable to me. So she's lying about that?
> 
> You have to trust her on this trip. It seems there is no choice. But verify, if possible.


Can't verify because his WW has blocked him.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Right now I have to believe her. I've done 8 weeks of due diligence. Found nothing. Do you have any suggestions for finding out the truth, one way or the other. That I haven't already done? I will be checking up on her out there. 

Don't worry, if it turns out something is going on, I will be sure to report it here, so you can get your I-told-you-so's in. Rest assured. Thanks for the helpful advice.


----------



## Philat

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Right now I have to believe her. I've done 8 weeks of due diligence. Found nothing. Do you have any suggestions for finding out the truth, one way or the other. That I haven't already done? I will be checking up on her out there.
> 
> Don't worry, if it turns out something is going on, I will be sure to report it here, so you can get your I-told-you-so's in. Rest assured. Thanks for the helpful advice.


Good luck!


----------



## weightlifter

So 1 hotel night?
What are the hours of the conference? Ie 1 hotel night after meetings ending at say 6 pm gives a rather narrow window.

Anyone else reading this trip as a cooldown phase with the next one the real one?


----------



## PhillyGuy13

weightlifter said:


> Anyone else reading this trip as a cooldown phase with the next one the real one?


Possible. Will need to remain vigilant...


----------



## weightlifter

What are the hours? Night in hotel is one? Ie one evening out? What goes on that evening?


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Basically flies in Wednesday afternoon. Meeting starts 8:00am Thursday morning... Meeting all day... Banquet/reception at hotel for dinner for group. Meetings again Friday morning til noon. flies home Friday afternoon.

She can't be sh!tfaced for Meetings so she can't drink a lot. Areas of concern will be wed and thurs night. Hasn't made flight yet so not sure exact flight times.


----------



## Nucking Futs

weightlifter said:


> So 1 hotel night?
> What are the hours of the conference? Ie 1 hotel night after meetings ending at say 6 pm gives a rather narrow window.
> 
> *Anyone else reading this trip as a cooldown phase with the next one the real one?*


Yep.


----------



## The Middleman

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Right now I have to believe her. I've done 8 weeks of due diligence. Found nothing. Do you have any suggestions for finding out the truth, one way or the other. That I haven't already done? I will be checking up on her out there.


I don't know if this has been brought up before but can you break away and go to this hotel/training/meeting .... incognito ... without her knowledge. It will either put your mind at ease that she is toeing the line or you will know right away if she is screwing around on you. What say you?


----------



## bfree

PhillyGuy, is this OM going to be at the conference at all?


----------



## sidney2718

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Basically 2 nights. Day and a half of meetings, no free night at the end this time around luckily. She can't drink the night before meetings, and flies home right after the meeting ends. Last time she didn't fly out til the next morning,,so she had a free night.
> 
> She has to go out there 2-3 times a year. I see what you are saying, what about the next time? I will see how we do in February, and evaluate for next time as the months go along. Sucky way to have to live.


Sucky for both of you.

I want to warn you about one thing. If she is innocent, and I think that she is, you do not want to drive her away with constantly checking on her or acting paranoid in any way. In the end if your marriage is to continue, you have to trust her. If this trip works out OK for you, drop the entire thing before it gets out of hand and we get a new thread from you wondering why she's leaving you.

I'm serious. Wives are not property. If the tables were turned and you were innocent, you'd not be happy to be treated this way.


----------



## workindad

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Basically flies in Wednesday afternoon. Meeting starts 8:00am Thursday morning... Meeting all day... Banquet/reception at hotel for dinner for group. Meetings again Friday morning til noon. flies home Friday afternoon.
> 
> She can't be sh!tfaced for Meetings so she can't drink a lot. Areas of concern will be wed and thurs night. Hasn't made flight yet so not sure exact flight times.


PG13- maybe I missed it. How do you know the meeting agenda? Di she tell you?

The part that troubles me is that she doesn't seem to recognize how serious this is. Either she is naiive, or she's hiding something.


----------



## Nucking Futs

sidney2718 said:


> Sucky for both of you.
> 
> I want to warn you about one thing. If she is innocent, and I think that she is, you do not want to drive her away with constantly checking on her or acting paranoid in any way. In the end if your marriage is to continue, you have to trust her. If this trip works out OK for you, drop the entire thing before it gets out of hand and we get a new thread from you wondering why she's leaving you.
> 
> I'm serious. Wives are not property. If the tables were turned and you were innocent, you'd not be happy to be treated this way.


This is bad advice. It's very common for a WS to pause the affair if they think their BS is on to them only to pick it back up again as soon as they think they can get away with it. One thread that I find annoying so I won't identify it (but weightlifter will if you ask him) the BS did a premature confrontation and the WS stopped the affair for 6 weeks. If the BS in that case had followed this advice his wife would still be boning the OM.


----------



## The Middleman

sidney2718 said:


> I'm serious. Wives are not property. If the tables were turned and you were innocent, you'd not be happy to be treated this way.


I agree that wives are not property, but she has proven IMO that she is not trustworthy by not shutting down this POSOM. Until she proves herself trustworthy she has to expect this treatment. I don't think she will leave him unless the OM really gets to her. I think being more assertive, taking action to stop this and not being "shut down" whenever he hears "you don't trust me" will actually make him more attractive to her.


----------



## arbitrator

PhillyGuy13 said:


> *Her manager "Kurt" is 41, based in Cleveland. * She has worked for him for 2-3 years. She has to go out there a few times per year, he comes out our way a few times a year. They've developed a friendship which didn't bother me. She has gone out with him and his girlfriend when she is in Cleveland in the past, seemed innocent. I believe he is divorced, I know he at least has a kid. * In October the bank combined some positions and he lost his job.* I know it bothered her she was really stressed with "getting to know a new boss now when she had a good relationship with Kurt"
> 
> *Having just lost his job, why would Kurt be a principal at the forthcoming meeting in Cleveland?*
> 
> On November 13-14 she was out in Cleveland with her team to meet the new boss. She had told me she was going to meet Kurt out on the night of 11/14. She checked in with me a few times throughout the night both phone and texts.
> 
> Around 11:30 pm her iPad starts pinging. She didn't bring it with her, so the kids can play with it. I got up to shut the sound off, when I saw this exchange (edited for spelling only) the convo seems a bit jumbled - May be they were slow to respond to each other or that is how it came through on the iPad.
> 
> Anna: 11:36pm So you still owe me dinner next time!!! (They headed out around 5:00 but never ate- only bars)
> *Kurt: Agreed. and a drink. Or two.
> Anna: Lol... Good on drinks** *
> Kurt: Not yet, but close. You are good AP look me up when you in Clev (AP is a nickname I had for her that apparently he does too)
> Kurt: had fun tonight. Hope you did too. Sorry for the awful pizza.
> *Anna: So Feb 6-7 I am back... save the date!*
> Anna: I had fun too
> Kurt: I will... And dinner will be planned much better
> Anna:
> Kurt: drinks at "xxxx bar" maybe skip
> Kurt: outside the lines- you are good- you will do well.
> Kurt: next time you and I just hang.
> Anna: outside the lines??
> Kurt: of work. Of political correctness. Where I can tell you you are pretty and it is ok.
> Anna: it was just you and I? (She is questioning because they were alone 5-10' then at 10 his girlfriend came out to drive him home, it was the three of them 10-11)
> Kurt: yes - until you got hammered... Or until I did.
> Anna: lol you did
> Kurt: I got the delicious pizza for us. (Sarcasm - the pizza was terrible)
> Anna: ok going to bed now
> Kurt: next time we eat in your room. Easier to trust room service.
> Kurt: Later AP
> *Anna:*
> *Anna: don't forget me because you are gone now!*
> 
> *Why would Anna be giving someone other than her husband the little "smiley-faces" and "winks; and why would she be wanting to confirm yet another meeting when she is back in town? Why would she be encouraging future contact with him?
> *
> 
> Kurt: you're cute. Have a good night sweetie. Sorry I missed on dinner. Order at hotel. Next time in town let me know.
> Kurt: I will do the same. I have some friends by you now. In "your town"
> Anna: already in bed... No dinner tonight.
> Kurt: And that is somehow hot. The dinner part my bad. But the bed part...
> *Kurt: it is early now that I see it. What do you sleep in?*
> 
> *What damn business is it of Kurt's as to what your wife chooses to sleep in?*
> 
> 
> Anna: seriously you are in the car with "girlfriend"
> Kurt: Umm... I am home. I live 15 minutes away. You should come hang. I will cook dinner. (I do not know if he lives with girlfriend)
> *Anna: so it is "Albany College" pajama pants. Now that is TMI *
> 
> *And what damn business does Anna have in even answering that question of his?*
> 
> *Kurt: that is cute... And I liked holding your hand. Different, now but had fun. Hope you did too. I want to see.
> Anna: to see?
> Kurt: Albany College pants*
> 
> *And now, Kurt is boldly probing further. Basically from the standpoint of seeing Anna in those Albany College pants. But with the logical progression of his obvious, but mildly occluded, prurient insinuations, well let's just say that if he ever got the golden opportunity to see Anna in those sleep pants, without either his GF's knowledge of, or being in tow with him; I'd be forced to conclude that the chances greatly are that in a short amount of time, Kurt would also express a brazen desire to see what she would look like sans those sleep pants. The probability of that coming to fruition is only as good as the emotional relationship that Anna might come to foster with him, as she progressively continues to tear down her marital boundaries. *
> 
> 
> *Anna: I have to delete this conversation.*
> 
> *Even Anna seems to know that the conversation is getting out of line!*
> Kurt: I have heard that before. Usually it is from "boss" but glad it's u now
> Anna: 12:05 am lol. Hope you are around when I am back here.
> 
> *She then had to get to airport early for early flight home. There were exchanges that morning about how hung over they feel, need to eat etc. * when she got back that morning I confronted her (next post)


*Why would she continue this dialogue even as she was on her way home to her husband?

Philly: She's presented you with well more than enough "probable cause" to either personally continue your investigation of her out-of-town activities, or to put a PI on her tail during those trips.

Please take it from a guy who was "so in love" with his XW that he blatently ignored those same signals, hid his gut feelings in the love of her extended family and cheerfully working in their farming business, all while she was out of town bedding down with men from her distant past, then deceptively and knowingly bringing her wares back home for me to taste, not having the first damn clue as to what it was that she was doing!

Please heed your gut feelings and do not run and hide from them! As someone much wiser that I'll ever be once said: "A word to the wise is sufficient!"*


----------



## larry.gray

Eating a meal with a opposite sex coworker in a hotel room is WAY out of line. That alone is enough to get really pissed off about.

I'd never even consider going close when I travel.


----------



## Refuse to be played

PhillyGuy13 said:


> We have iOS 7.0 iPhones and from everything I can tell none of that spyware is compatible yet believe me I've looked.


iPhone Spy Software – Mobile Spy iPhone Monitoring App

Now compatible with iOS 7.0 iPhone. Slap this SOB on her phone and then listen in on her periodically with the phones mic through out her trip.

Trust but verify dude.


----------



## weightlifter

GOOD TO SEE YA BACK helping RTBP.

ONE THING WHETHER OR NOT YOU GO 007 on her or not. I traveled extensively 2010 2011 building a facility. Across the street was a place where the local white trash girls from that facility congregated after work. It never even crossed my mind to go there and hang in a bar with women.

SHE IS NEVER NEVER NEVER (Nor are you) to have an opposite sex person in your hotel room. EVER! This story prolly hits painfully close to home for RTBP.

Also a warning. If you go RTBPs route. Have a plan to be able to record what you hear AND do it without having to listen yourself. Again I can not say this enough. Actually hearing the woman you love giving herself to another man will do damage 10 times worse than just knowing she is cheating. It will crush your soul.

edit: This is the one case where you are lucky your wife does not sleep starkers. Had she said she wears nothing...


----------



## weightlifter

Nucking Futs said:


> This is bad advice. It's very common for a WS to pause the affair if they think their BS is on to them only to pick it back up again as soon as they think they can get away with it. One thread that I find annoying so I won't identify it (but weightlifter will if you ask him) the BS did a premature confrontation and the WS stopped the affair for 6 weeks. If the BS in that case had followed this advice his wife would still be boning the OM.


Yep she turned the tables on him big time that first confront. Of course had she not gotten sloppy. Had she followed her coaching better... if this, if that, if this, if that.

If 999 poster here's spouses not re-connected on FB...

Evidence points that she is resisting but this is not forever. Kurt is going to fish and fish and fish and fish and probe and probe and probe. Why? Cause he is already boning two other mens wives and adding your wife is a bonus 3 times a year.

The thread in question is RDMU and RDMUs wife resisted Bob the player for NINE MONTHS but not forever. I effing loathe the Kurts (and Bob's) of the world.


----------



## Refuse to be played

weightlifter said:


> GOOD TO SEE YA BACK helping RTBP.
> 
> ONE THING WHETHER OR NOT YOU GO 007 on her or not. I traveled extensively 2010 2011 building a facility. Across the street was a place where the local white trash girls from that facility congregated after work. It never even crossed my mind to go there and hang in a bar with women.
> 
> SHE IS NEVER NEVER NEVER (Nor are you) to have an opposite sex person in your hotel room. EVER! This story prolly hits painfully close to home for RTBP.
> 
> Also a warning. If you go RTBPs route. Have a plan to be able to record what you hear AND do it without having to listen yourself. Again I can not say this enough. Actually hearing the woman you love giving herself to another man will do damage 10 times worse than just knowing she is cheating. It will crush your soul.
> 
> edit: This is the one case where you are lucky your wife does not sleep starkers. Had she said she wears nothing...


I usually stay away from threads like this now but yeah it does hit pretty close. Away, drunk, interacting with some d-bag, yup. Either this or a PI in whatever city, IMO best way to monitor on a business trip or a potential workplace A.

Also Philly if you do go this route block any text apps. Words with friends, scrabble, any free text apps.


----------



## Singledude21

sidney2718 said:


> If the tables were turned and you were innocent, you'd not be happy to be treated this way.


But I know if I crossed the line and was willing to go through anything to make the relationship work, I'd just bite my tongue and deal.

This is the consequences of R after an affair. You don't get that trust back for a long time, if ever. If you can't deal, leave. You probably did your BS a favor and lifted a burden off their heart.


----------



## illwill

sidney2718 said:


> Sucky for both of you.
> 
> I want to warn you about one thing. If she is innocent, and I think that she is, you do not want to drive her away with constantly checking on her or acting paranoid in any way. In the end if your marriage is to continue, you have to trust her. If this trip works out OK for you, drop the entire thing before it gets out of hand and we get a new thread from you wondering why she's leaving you.
> 
> I'm serious. Wives are not property. If the tables were turned and you were innocent, you'd not be happy to be treated this way.


Yes, this is awful advice. The biggest mistake we see on here is rugsweeping. We rarely see anyone who regrets being proactive and decisive.

Shut it down right now. On both sides. She needs to understand you have zero tolerance for any games or bs.

And you need to have a conversation wiith the other guy. For real. Make it crystal clear that you are not like those other poor husbands and you will make him curse the day he was crapped out of his mom. 

Never apologize or wait to defend your marriage.


----------



## helolover

illwill said:


> Yes, this is awful advice. The biggest mistake we see on here is rugsweeping. We rarely see anyone who regrets being proactive and decisive.
> 
> Shut it down right now. On both sides. She needs to understand you have zero tolerance for any games or bs.
> 
> And you need to have a conversation wiith the other guy. For real. Make it crystal clear that you are not like those other poor husbands and you will make him curse the day he was crapped out of his mom.
> 
> Never apologize or wait to defend your marriage.


Concur. This is the only way. Do not continue with this crap if you are not comfortable with it. 

Trust what your gut is telling you. Your gut is right. There is a lot more to this story. Standard cheater script when caught. You will be gaslighted. 

Stand your ground.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

She is content with her life as it is, obligatory sex with you now and then, some dream mini holiday's with him a couple of times a year.

You need to look for their means of communication. And have a PI investigating at least the second trip from now on.


----------



## Philat

sidney2718 said:


> Sucky for both of you.
> 
> I want to warn you about one thing. If she is innocent, and I think that she is, you do not want to drive her away with constantly checking on her or acting paranoid in any way. * In the end if your marriage is to continue, you have to trust her. * If this trip works out OK for you, drop the entire thing before it gets out of hand and we get a new thread from you wondering why she's leaving you.
> 
> I'm serious. Wives are not property. If the tables were turned and you were innocent, you'd not be happy to be treated this way.


Yes, fair enough, but philly is not at the end yet. The end will be reached when his W proves to him that she can be trusted to not succumb to scumbag Kurt (or anyone else). She needs to prove this rather than have philly trust her blindly because of the rather disturbing texting. MattMatt nailed it very succinctly a while ago:



MattMatt said:


> He is a menace to your family. She either accepts that and cuts him off or things will get worse.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## weightlifter

See_Listen_Love said:


> She is content with her life as it is, obligatory sex with you now and then, some dream mini holiday's with him a couple of times a year.
> 
> You need to look for their means of communication. And have a PI investigating at least the second trip from now on.


SLL you are also reading this one as possibly a decoy be good girl trip with the next one the real test?


----------



## weightlifter

I would still do SOME kind of monitoring OP.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Looking into the link that was posted last night re: iPhone monitoring. Also still have iMessages available, if she leaves her iPad at home. I am able to turn them off and on without detection, as long as I'm careful. Looking into the monitoring in case she brings her iPad with her this time. In the past she has left it at home and doesn't bring it on work trips. (Which always told me until that night nothing happened - she wouldn't carelessly leave her iPad home with messages on it if she was consciously doing something bad)

She will be watched when she is away for work. Probably a good idea to watch her the next time around as well. Especially since she knows this is still eating at me she may behave this time.

Someone asked why he would be there. He is not affiliated with the company any longer and will not be at the meeting. Company HQ are in this city. However he still lives in/near the city the meetings are in.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

weightlifter said:


> This is the one case where you are lucky your wife does not sleep starkers. Had she said she wears nothing...


lol I've been trying to get that to happen for years - no luck yet

Again part of this is naivety on her part. If she was really into the sexting, she would have made up a better answer than college pajama pants. I pretty much believe her that she wasn't looking for anything, but I DO NOT TRUST THIS GUY IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM. She gets that now, I hope.


----------



## weightlifter

the problem is the Kurts probe and probe and probe and probe....


----------



## Philat

weightlifter said:


> the problem is the Kurts probe and probe and probe and probe....


That's why passive or cordial resistance on her part is no good. She needs to smack him away hard and for good. None of this "letting him down gently" crap.


----------



## arbitrator

weightlifter said:


> the problem is the Kurt's probe and probe and probe and probe....


*Those habitual "inquisitive probes" of his are certainly bad enough! But I'd think that the greater concern here is Kurt's getting her emotionally enough attached to him to facilitate breaking out that "flesh probe" of his!*


----------



## Hicks

PhillyGuy13 said:


> lol I've been trying to get that to happen for years - no luck yet
> 
> Again part of this is naivety on her part. If she was really into the sexting, she would have made up a better answer than college pajama pants. I pretty much believe her that she wasn't looking for anything, but I DO NOT TRUST THIS GUY IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM. She gets that now, I hope.


It's not naitevity..... All women are accostomed to all men hitting on them and trying to get them to have sex pretty much constantly from their teens.

It was a flirtation, that she allowed to get out of hand. She was playing with fire. She knows he was hitting on her and wanted sex from her. The question is why did she allow it to get out of hand. Maybe she was trying to be nice, and then he took it too far. Maybe she was trying to score points with her boss. Maybe she was into him and attracted to him. Maybe it was just a fun night and he took it further than she thought he would. There are many possibilities. But innocence about his intentions is not one of them.

I would tell her the following. 1. In your book, this was not acceptable behavior from your wife. You went out drinking with another man who wanted in your pants, you held his hand, and you exchanged flirtatious texts with him. Plus whatever you don't even know about. That's it. 2. These are your rules for your wife in your marriage: No friendships with men, no texting men, no out drinking 1x1 with men. Business trips are business and socializing is to be done in groups. All men want in your pants. Men do not want to be friends with women. 3. You are free to decide what to do with what I have just told you. I am not the police. It's up to you to decide what kind of wife you are. One that flirts around with men, or one that is faithful to her husband.


----------



## The Middleman

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Someone asked why he would be there. He is not affiliated with the company any longer and will not be at the meeting. Company HQ are in this city. However he still lives in/near the city the meetings are in.


Let me ask this again: Would you consider going to the city where the meeting is and watch what is going on, first hand, without her knowledge?

What about contacting this guy and letting him know that you are on to what he is up to?


----------



## PhillyGuy13

There is no way for me to watch her in closed door corporate meetings. As far as following her in the hotel, restaurants and bars, I think she would recognize me, unless I put on sunglasses and a mustache. She would know what I was up to anyway, I don't have work trip planned myself and would need to get a 48 hour babysitter.

There has been no contact since mid November that I have seen - work and all personal emails, texts, phone calls, there are no text apps or game apps on her phone, VAR set up in her car. No burner that I can find - searched all work bags, car, all coat pockets, bedroom, everywhere. Unless she keeps a burner in the office there has been no contact. She's back to work today after two weeks vacation. Anyway, the next whiff of contact by him I am going scorched earth.


----------



## thummper

Philly,
I think you've put "de fear of de lord" in her by getting so upset over those texts, by obviously not getting over it, and demanding no contact *OR ELSE*! I think she knows how serious you are about this and I don't think this young lady is going to do anything to jeopardize her little family or her relationship with you. Actually, this Kurt reminds me of Howard Wolowitz on The Big Bang Theory, a rather pitiful cvckhound whose pathetic antics are always being shot down by the women he tries to bed.


----------



## LongWalk

Go with the PI. Just make sure she cannot see that you spent the money.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## arbitrator

*Philly: You may have answered it already, but is her cell phone on your personal family account or is it on the company's?

If it's on yours, you could certainly trace phone call/text usage online with your provider. And you could also place some virtually undetectable software on there that could accurately trace phone calls/texts.

But if it's a company issued device, then you're pretty much SOL! Other than that, you may have to resort to the PI route, which might end up being a worthwhile investment in your own personal peace of mind!*


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Both of our phones are in her name on her verizon account. But I've always had access to the account because I can expense a portion of the bill for work. so yes I can see all of her calls and texts on there. Apple iMessages however do not show up on the bill and this is what I need to see. Kurt is also an iPhone user. I still get them just not as conveniently as looking up the verizon account.

For the uninitiated, iMessages are Apples version of text messages that can be sent from iPhone, iPad, and iPod users to each other. They are sent exactly the same as texts, however since they are Apple to Apple they don't count against your text message limit, but also don't show up on a bill either.


----------



## LongWalk

PI when she goes.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## CouldItBeSo

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Both of our phones are in her name on her verizon account. But I've always had access to the account because I can expense a portion of the bill for work. so yes I can see all of her calls and texts on there. Apple iMessages however do not show up on the bill and this is what I need to see. Kurt is also an iPhone user. I still get them just not as conveniently as looking up the verizon account.
> 
> For the uninitiated, iMessages are Apples version of text messages that can be sent from iPhone, iPad, and iPod users to each other. They are sent exactly the same as texts, however since they are Apple to Apple they don't count against your text message limit, but also don't show up on a bill either.


Google+ doesn't show up on the bill either.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

CouldItBeSo said:


> Google+ doesn't show up on the bill either.


How is that accessed? Don't know much about it but tried to find out. She doesn't have any Google plus or any google app on her phone, and doesn't clear her phone, computer, or iPad browser histories. I signed up for this myself last month, couldn't find her. Or him.


----------



## Refuse to be played

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Both of our phones are in her name on her verizon account. But I've always had access to the account because I can expense a portion of the bill for work. so yes I can see all of her calls and texts on there. Apple iMessages however do not show up on the bill and this is what I need to see. Kurt is also an iPhone user. I still get them just not as conveniently as looking up the verizon account.
> 
> For the uninitiated, iMessages are Apples version of text messages that can be sent from iPhone, iPad, and iPod users to each other. They are sent exactly the same as texts, however since they are Apple to Apple they don't count against your text message limit, but also don't show up on a bill either.


You get iMessages with the app I gave you the link for. 

If she's going your only options appear to be spy app, PI, or go there yourself and not tell her.


----------



## CouldItBeSo

PhillyGuy13 said:


> How is that accessed? Don't know much about it but tried to find out. She doesn't have any Google plus or any google app on her phone, and doesn't clear her phone, computer, or iPad browser histories. I signed up for this myself last month, couldn't find her. Or him.


You can access it with a browser from the Google search page's "Apps" button or if you have the app on the phone you can log into it by default and the messages show up like text messages. The message app is called "Hangouts." She doesn't need to clear the phone if she uses "incognito" mode on the browser which leaves no trails behind.


----------



## illwill

You are a lucky man. Most guys come here when its too late.

Hopefully you are not.


----------



## Hicks

I would take a totally different approach. From what I read of your entire post, this is not an affair, this is not your wife having feelings for this man. I sincerely doubt they had sex becuase why would Kurt need to be hitting on her if he already got the prize? It is your wife allowing a flirtation to go too far on one particular night. One night does not make a lifetime, does not define a person. You should judge your wife on the entirety of her person not one specific night. Is she a cheater, or is she just a wife who allowed a fun flirtation to go too far? YOU have to decide what she is. If she is a cheater, then you should not remain married to her.

Can your wife cheat? YES! Anyone's wife can cheat. And your wife is a prime candidate. Why? She works, has kids, and you have an unfulfilling sex life. These are flags that tell you WATCH OUT.

BUT.... You dodged a bullet. But it's crucial that you set things up in your marriage where a fun, drunken, flirtatious night occurs between the 2 of you, and not her and someone else. All the exuses about babysitters, too tired, too stressed out, house is too messy, lack of money have to be set aside. You the husband must create the fun and fulfiling and sexual environment within your marriage or yes, sadly your marriage is at risk.

What this event should do is wake you up to is the fact that your wife COULD cheat. Most guys who's wives cheated on them think "she would never cheat". You are ahead of the game. Why is that important? Becuase you realize the importance of the agendas that you will need to drive within your marriage. So instead of "we don't have a babysitter", it's your knowledge and understanding that your marriage will be destroyed if you don't spend time having fun as a couple. It's that important.

My view is that you should not trust your wife. But, there is no reason to constantly tell her you don't trust her or require her to do different things. The best recipe against cheating is to create a good, fun, fuflilling, happy, exciting, sexual environment in your marriage. Do this as a "positive" excersize (ie. let's build a great marriage... are you in?) as opposed to a "negative" excersize (I need to see your cell phone, I don't trust you).... That storm could of negativity is cancer to your marriage.

So you turn the negativity into a positive. Not about "Her" but about "We". About the "greater good".... So for example, if it comes up about what she did, here is where I would lead the conversation... "Wife, it's true I was shocked buy reading those texts... I see you go out with a guy get drunk, and then when he hits on you rather than shut it down, you more or less entertained it. But, it really woke me up. I realize that we need to have more fun, do more things togeher and really focus on being boyfriend and girlfriend once in a while."


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Hicks said:


> I would take a totally different approach. From what I read of your entire post, this is not an affair, this is not your wife having feelings for this man. I sincerely doubt they had sex becuase why would Kurt need to be hitting on her if he already got the prize? It is your wife allowing a flirtation to go too far on one particular night. One night does not make a lifetime, does not define a person. You should judge your wife on the entirety of her person not one specific night. Is she a cheater, or is she just a wife who allowed a fun flirtation to go too far? YOU have to decide what she is. If she is a cheater, then you should not remain married to her.
> 
> Can your wife cheat? YES! Anyone's wife can cheat. And your wife is a prime candidate. Why? She works, has kids, and you have an unfulfilling sex life. These are flags that tell you WATCH OUT.
> 
> BUT.... You dodged a bullet. But it's crucial that you set things up in your marriage where a fun, drunken, flirtatious night occurs between the 2 of you, and not her and someone else. All the exuses about babysitters, too tired, too stressed out, house is too messy, lack of money have to be set aside. You the husband must create the fun and fulfiling and sexual environment within your marriage or yes, sadly your marriage is at risk.
> 
> What this event should do is wake you up to is the fact that your wife COULD cheat. Most guys who's wives cheated on them think "she would never cheat". You are ahead of the game. Why is that important? Becuase you realize the importance of the agendas that you will need to drive within your marriage. So instead of "we don't have a babysitter", it's your knowledge and understanding that your marriage will be destroyed if you don't spend time having fun as a couple. It's that important.
> 
> My view is that you should not trust your wife. But, there is no reason to constantly tell her you don't trust her or require her to do different things. The best recipe against cheating is to create a good, fun, fuflilling, happy, exciting, sexual environment in your marriage. Do this as a "positive" excersize (ie. let's build a great marriage... are you in?) as opposed to a "negative" excersize (I need to see your cell phone, I don't trust you).... That storm could of negativity is cancer to your marriage.
> 
> So you turn the negativity into a positive. Not about "Her" but about "We". About the "greater good".... So for example, if it comes up about what she did, here is where I would lead the conversation... "Wife, it's true I was shocked buy reading those texts... I see you go out with a guy get drunk, and then when he hits on you rather than shut it down, you more or less entertained it. But, it really woke me up. I realize that we need to have more fun, do more things togeher and really focus on being boyfriend and girlfriend once in a while."


OP:
this post has a lot of good thoughts in it. It's a good approach to take with your wife. however I wouls add to this sentiment something like "BTW if you were ever to cheat on me I woukldn't be able to stay married to you. we'd be finished. That's why mainitaining good boundaries with other people is so important. by good boundaries I mean.......(examples)"

I also have a question, OP. Any way you could think of a reason to accompany her to Cleveland? i.e. above board.
You know, explain to her how much fun you two could have on Wednesday and Thursday night, suggest staying Friday and Saturday night too, how great it will be to get away just the two of you. How visiting Cleveland in February will be a perfect mini-vacation for the two of you ( :rofl: i.e. think of something here, maybe..... windsailing on Lake Erie in sub-zero weather, or remind her how much you like the color gray, or......I don't know - Cleveland Cavaliers???)


----------



## PhillyGuy13

I appreciate the thought nuclear. I think if I suggested that she would see through it as me wanting to keep an eye on her. We also have limited babysitting opportunities, especially mid week for multi-nights. We have no family within 150 miles of where we live. So we rely on trusted neighborhood people, but overnight is a tall order.

We do have two weekend getaways now planned in the next few months, which is more than we've done in the 5 years since kid #1 was born. Now that the holidays are over we are also resolving to go out at least 2-3 times a month for dinner, movies, drinks, whatever.


----------



## sandc

I think the spy app on the phone would be best if you can swing that.


----------



## Nucking Futs

sandc said:


> I think the spy app on the phone would be best if you can swing that.


You should definitely try get it on her phone if you can do it secretly, but it won't help if she has a burner phone. 

I think the PI is good for this trip, at least he'll know if they meet. I don't expect her to do anything this time since she knows it's an issue and she told OM she'd see him in Feb. I expect she'll lie low until then.

You might want to see if the PI can log any time he sees her using her phone so you can compare it with her text/call/data log on the bill.


----------



## bfree

Philly,

Why do you care if she knows you don't trust her? Does she deserve your trust? Why do you care if she knows you are monitoring her? Does she deserve that amount of freedom? If I were in your position I would tell her you're going with her this time and every time she goes on these trips. When she says "why don't you trust me" just say "because you have proven to be untrustworthy."


----------



## Philat

PhillyGuy13 said:


> I appreciate the thought nuclear. *I think if I suggested that she would see through it as me wanting to keep an eye on her. * We also have limited babysitting opportunities, especially mid week for multi-nights. We have no family within 150 miles of where we live. So we rely on trusted neighborhood people, but overnight is a tall order.
> 
> We do have two weekend getaways now planned in the next few months, which is more than we've done in the 5 years since kid #1 was born. Now that the holidays are over we are also resolving to go out at least 2-3 times a month for dinner, movies, drinks, whatever.


What you really need is to see her set and enforce boundaries, and see this for yourself (not just take her word). If she does this convincingly, then maybe you can take your eye off her.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

bfree said:


> Philly,
> 
> Why do you care if she knows you don't trust her? Does she deserve your trust? Why do you care if she knows you are monitoring her? Does she deserve that amount of freedom? If I were in your position I would tell her you're going with her this time and every time she goes on these trips. When she says "why don't you trust me" just say "because you have proven to be untrustworthy."


Exactly. 

" well honey its because you told him SAVE THE DATE! For your Feb trip so you could go out on another date with him. You know, like the 5 hour date, including hand holding, you went with him on last time you were there. Little things like that"

OP I think you should be a lot less concerned on what she might or might not resent you saying to her or suggest to her. She enjoyed flirting with and hanging with this guy. I really think you should not accept any shy*t from her whatsoever. Tell her you have reason not to trust her. If she protests tell her you might not mind finding a female drinking buddy yourself.

Her going back to Cleveland is not a good situation IMO. you may very well catch her doing something but you won't be able to prevent it. You should at least be clear with her on what happens if she cheats, and on what happens if she goes on another date with the guy. Or any other guy......


----------



## Hicks

I think treating her like a untrustworthy cheater is a huge mistake.

What you have to do is offer her choices when dealing with her, and judge the state of your marriage and the quality of your wife based on the choices she makes. And let her know that you are judging her worthiness by her choices and decisions.

And these conversations shoud be organic, inserted by you as the topics naturally come up and not forced.

Example. "Wife, you can decide that I am a jerk becuase I don't trust you. Or you can decide that for the sake of my husband and my marriage I should look at things from his perspective. I can't decide for you what to do. You have to look into your heart and decide what is right".


----------



## Nucking Futs

Hicks said:


> I think treating her like a untrustworthy cheater is a huge mistake.


It might be a mistake to treat her as a cheater, but she's proven herself untrustworthy.


----------



## Philat

Hicks said:


> I think treating her like a untrustworthy cheater is a huge mistake.
> 
> What you have to do is offer her choices when dealing with her, and judge the state of your marriage and the quality of your wife based on the choices she makes. *And let her know that you are judging her worthiness by her choices and decisions.*
> 
> And these conversations shoud be organic, inserted by you as the topics naturally come up and not forced.
> 
> Example. "Wife, you can decide that I am a jerk becuase I don't trust you. Or you can decide that for the sake of my husband and my marriage I should look at things from his perspective. I can't decide for you what to do. You have to look into your heart and decide what is right".


He's not going to know what her choices and decisions are unless he does so clandestinely, at least for now.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Thanks all. If anything new pops up between now and early Feb I will report back. I'm sure as that trip approaches I will be on edge to say the least. But in the meantime I will push on. Happy new year to all.


----------



## Hicks

Philat said:


> He's not going to know what her choices and decisions are unless he does so clandestinely, at least for now.


Yes he will.
Anyone can see the difference between a good wife and a bad wife. Anyone can see the difference between a good marriage and a bad marriage. All he needs to do is hold himself and her and their marrige to standards. Most men are afraid to do this becuase it will "piss her off" and we all know that pissed off wives do not want sex. But this "close call" is a wake up call. He should not focus on cheating and spying, but rather focus on taking the risks associate with holding his wife accountable to a standard.


----------



## MAKINGSENSEOFIT

There's no reason for a married woman to be going out alone with a member of the opposite sex. It's not appropriate and more often then not it leads to problems. I doubt your wife would be cool with you going out of town and meeting up with a female for a drink.


----------



## Philat

Hicks said:


> Yes he will.
> *Anyone can see the difference between a good wife and a bad wife.* Anyone can see the difference between a good marriage and a bad marriage. All he needs to do is hold himself and her and their marrige to standards. Most men are afraid to do this becuase it will "piss her off" and we all know that pissed off wives do not want sex. But this "close call" is a wake up call. He should not focus on cheating and spying, but rather focus on taking the risks associate with holding his wife accountable to a standard.


I see your point, though I don't fully subscribe to its applicability here. But I also have to say that the bolded passage is patently untrue, as anyone who has been gob-smacked by a wayward's secret disregard for their marriage's ostensible standards can attest.


----------



## jnj express

Hey Philly---as to her buddy attending the meetings---probably not---but I am willing to bet he shows up at the hotel where they will stay/the places they go to drink---HE WORKED WITH AND KNOWS THESE PEOPLE,-----he probably wants to renew old aquaintances-------this is something you can never prevent from happening

what you could do---is just tell your wife you and your child are coming along for the ride-----and if she is trying to make sure this mge is gonna make it----SHE WILL NOT SAY ONE WORD AGST YOU COMING ALONG------if she complains about lack of trust---tell her based on the past----she is responsible for THAT LACK OF TRUST ON YOUR PART---and bottom line---you are just fighting for your mge


----------



## Hicks

Look, take this for what you will.

OP you have to act more like Kurt. He wined and dined her, flirted with her, pursued her. You have to introduce that dynamic into your marriage where you are the pursuer. Its the art of seduction and yes it applies to wives.


----------



## theroad

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Someone asked why he would be there. He is not affiliated with the company any longer and will not be at the meeting. Company HQ are in this city. However he still lives in/near the city the meetings are in.


Duh!

Incase you did not hear DUH!


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Helpful as always, theroad, helpful as always. Do me a big favor. Refrain from posting on here. I'm looking for help with my situation, not ambiguously vague glib remarks. Thanks.


----------



## SaltInWound

Hicks said:


> Look, take this for what you will.
> 
> OP you have to act more like Kurt. He wined and dined her, flirted with her, pursued her. You have to introduce that dynamic into your marriage where you are the pursuer. Its the art of seduction and yes it applies to wives.


I'm curious how that works. I could see it working for a wife who isn't looking elsewhere for attention. What about someone who is? The problem is that he isn't Kurt. He could do the same exact thing Kurt does or says and it wouldn't have the same impact.


----------



## Hicks

SaltInWound said:


> I'm curious how that works. I could see it working for a wife who isn't looking elsewhere for attention. What about someone who is? The problem is that he isn't Kurt. He could do the same exact thing Kurt does or says and it wouldn't have the same impact.


He shouldn't let the what if's stop him from being the best husband possible and setting up the best marriage possible.

Yes, along the way he may find out she is a bum. A chronic cheater. A liar. A bad person. Doesn't love him.

But my view is ONE NIGHT does not define who a person is. And if the OP strives to build a good marriage, a fun marriage, a sexy and fliratious marriage..... That's how he finds out who she is and what she is about. He will find she either wants this with him or doesn't.

He could decide that this ONE NIGHT is a wake up call, and that he and his wife have to get their act's together and "make it work". And the process of trying will either work or it will fail. 

Or, he could decide that this ONE NIGHT has defined his wife, that she is a cheater....

I view it more of a wake up call. I truly believe his marriage can be affiar proofed, if he focuses on building something positive.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Thank Hicks and I have definitely viewed this whole episode as a wake up call.

I know there was nothing going on before the night of texts. Nothing even happened that night, until they parted ways and the late night texting began. And they are mostly one-sided. Him pursuing her, her not deflecting. 

We were definitely stuck in the doldrums. We never went out alone. Pick up the kids. Feed the kids. Bathe the kids. Get the kids to bed. Go to bed. Wash, rinse, repeat. I was and am ready willing and able in the bedroom at the drop of a hat, and asked for it daily. Usually shot down due to her being tired, or unhappy with her weight. 

I work from home so I try to keep up with the daily household chores. Been cooking more. Have two weekend getaways planned for the two of us. Right around the time this issue happened we also had an issue with daycare, which led us to find a great older woman in the neighborhood that is willing to babysit for us. So we can go out more. 

We've had in depth discussions over the past several weeks that we need to make time for each other, both in and out of the bedroom, and so far we have. And she has been remorseful over the texting. But she is also POed that I don't trust her. I don't think something is going to happen when she goes away. But Yes, I just don't trust that something won't happen either. I need to make sure.


----------



## sandc

The more time you can spend alone with each other the better. The tendency for most couples is to put the children first and I get that. We did the same thing. Thing is, you were a couple before the kids, you'll be a couple after the kids are gone. You have to be able to relate to and love one another because conceivably, you two will be all you two have one day.

Also talk to her. Having deep, emotional conversations with her will do a lot to spur her libido (well, it worked with my wife) and it will help her understand you and your motives better. If she thinks you are just being controlling she will look at is as you mistrusting her. If she thinks you are jealously guarding someone very precious to you, she may look at it differently. Have those deep talks and try to help her understand.

I did say try.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Hicks said:


> He shouldn't let the what if's stop him from being the best husband possible and setting up the best marriage possible.
> 
> Yes, along the way he may find out she is a bum. A chronic cheater. A liar. A bad person. Doesn't love him.
> 
> But my view is ONE NIGHT does not define who a person is. And if the OP strives to build a good marriage, a fun marriage, a sexy and fliratious marriage..... That's how he finds out who she is and what she is about. He will find she either wants this with him or doesn't.
> 
> He could decide that this ONE NIGHT is a wake up call, and that he and his wife have to get their act's together and "make it work". And the process of trying will either work or it will fail.
> 
> Or, he could decide that this ONE NIGHT has defined his wife, that she is a cheater....
> 
> I view it more of a wake up call. I truly believe his marriage can be affiar proofed, if he focuses on building something positive.


one night does not define who or what a person is, but it can certainly _indicate_ who/what a person is. One night can also indicate the state of or quality of a person's commitment to their spouse. She didn't cheat, but she crossed some boundaries. a little toughness/emotional withdrawal is in order as his propoer response; temporarily

yes its true that he should not take her for granted. but also, as many often point out in these threads and something I agree with, a husband should make sure his wife understands that although he loves her and wants her, he does not *need* her. That if necesary he would do fine without her, and would be able to replace her (I think you essentially say this in one of your earlier posts)

.......and like almost everything I post on TAM, if the genders are reversed, exact same principle applies


----------



## Machiavelli

nuclearnightmare said:


> a husband should make sure his wife understands that although he loves her and wants her, he does not *need* her. That if necesary he would do fine without her, and would be able to replace her (I think you essentially say this in one of your earlier posts)
> 
> .......and like almost everything I post on TAM, if the genders are reversed, exact same principle applies


I don't necessarily agree that reversing the sexes applies, but in the case of a potentially WW, the knowledge that her STBBH is hot enough to replace her with two younger and hotter women will not only give her pause about becoming involved with an OM, but will also increase her own attraction to her H.


----------



## tom67

Machiavelli said:


> I don't necessarily agree that reversing the sexes applies, but in the case of a potentially WW, the knowledge that her STBBH is hot enough to replace her with two younger and hotter women will not only give her pause about becoming involved with an OM, but will also increase her own attraction to her H.


:iagree::iagree:
He has to show he has options and if need be, ready to find a hotter replacement.


----------



## thummper

I really feel for Phillyguy because in this situation, I'm sure he feels totally impotent, not sexually, but in the fact that when his wife goes on her trip, he will be left at home in constant worry about what she might be doing and with who *and there's **nothing* *he can do about it*!  I still don't know why he doesn't contact POS Kurt and warn him off. Tell him that he's read the texts and knows what he is trying to do with his wife, and tell him he has told her there is to be NO contact under any circumstances. I only pray that she takes these concerns to heart and doesn't do something stupid thinking, as she has said, that she can "handle him." My heart goes out to him for what he must be going through.


----------



## jnj express

Leave the potential lover alone---don't stir him up----no one knows what kind of a person he is---and trying to threaten him----just might have the reverse effect, wherein, he goes after the wife, when she is in Ohio, on her own, and probably will be drinking as she has done in the past


----------



## CouldItBeSo

Machiavelli said:


> I don't necessarily agree that reversing the sexes applies, but in the case of a potentially WW, the knowledge that her STBBH is hot enough to replace her with two younger and hotter women will not only give her pause about becoming involved with an OM, but will also increase her own attraction to her H.


So what then stops these "younger and hotter women" replacing him with two younger and hotter men?


----------



## martyc47

CouldItBeSo said:


> So what then stops these "younger and hotter women" replacing him with two younger and hotter men?


Because age and looks are far down the list when it comes to things that women value in men, and that straight men value when it comes to competition.


----------



## illwill

Hicks said:


> Look, take this for what you will.
> 
> OP you have to act more like Kurt. He wined and dined her, flirted with her, pursued her. You have to introduce that dynamic into your marriage where you are the pursuer. Its the art of seduction and yes it applies to wives.


Make sure you are not rewarding her for bad behavior.

She should be romancing you.


----------



## Stronger-now

Machiavelli said:


> *I don't necessarily agree that reversing the sexes applies*, but in the case of a potentially WW, the knowledge that her STBBH is hot enough to replace her with two younger and hotter women will not only give her pause about becoming involved with an OM, but will also increase her own attraction to her H.


Why would you think being a woman = need a man? In ANY case of male WS, he also should have known that his wife can replace him with a hotter, smarter, funnier, more successful (whatever trait floats your boat) man OR up her sex rank first then replace the cheating man (as you suggest to so many man here. I think not only men can work to increase their sex rank).


----------



## davecarter

I'm with Hicks on this one: don't see this is going to go anywhere, EA/PA-wise.

PhillyGuy is massively on his wife's case and she has stressed she 'can handle' Kurt, regardless of his 'flirtatious' conversation and comments toward her.

PhillyGuy - you know your wife 'X' times better than anyone here with, albeit valid, theories, opinions and thoughts: what is your gut-feeling telling you right now?
_(I went through the thread but couldn't find any refs. that pointed to Kurt being a 'Player/Predator' who's done this before)_


----------



## Stronger-now

davecarter said:


> I'm with Hicks on this one: don't see this is going to go anywhere, EA/PA-wise.
> 
> PhillyGuy is massively on his wife's case and *she has stressed she 'can handle' Kurt, *regardless of his 'flirtatious' conversation and comments toward her.
> 
> PhillyGuy - you know your wife 'X' times better than anyone here with, albeit valid, theories, opinions and thoughts: what is your gut-feeling telling you right now?
> _(I went through the thread but couldn't find any refs. that pointed to Kurt being a 'Player/Predator' who's done this before)_


And my question is: what could possibly be so important about Kurt or her "friendship"with Kurt that she insists to continue to put herself in a situation that what we can agree as "trouble"? Is she an adrenaline junkie or something? Tell her to take flying lesson. Tempting your own fidelity and consequently potentially ruining your happy family and marriage is just...I don't know the right word here.


----------



## melw74

I really would still really uneasy when this trip comes up. Not the meetings the nights that worry you also worry me.

I am not saying your wife is up to no good, but its this man i really do not trust at all.

The text messaging would have been enough for me to keep the wife away from him, as its obvious he has his eyes on her.

With you not being there your not going to know exactly whats going on.


----------



## Hicks

Insecurity is the most unattractive trait a man can show a woman.

And, that is what you are showing her. 

In practical terms, if your goal is a strong marriage, a happy marriage and a sexual marriage, then allowing your insecurity to take hold is counterproductive to that goal.
l
If your wife called you a liar when you were not lying and would not give up on that, would you be happy with her? What would you do?

You are not going to convince her that she is untrustworthy. She has analyzed the situation and has decided she "would not have done anything" and that she is trustworthy. That's done.

Now you are a free man and can decide to trust her or decide not to trust her.

But what should a man do with a wife he cannot trust? Should he spy on her? Should he worry about whether she is doing x, y, z? Should he let worry eat him? IF I did not trust my wife I would not be married to her. Bottom line.

What should a man who trusts his wife do? He should build a marriage and family with her.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

davecarter said:


> I'm with Hicks on this one: don't see this is going to go anywhere, EA/PA-wise.
> 
> PhillyGuy - you know your wife 'X' times better than anyone here with, albeit valid, theories, opinions and thoughts: what is your gut-feeling telling you right now?
> _(I went through the thread but couldn't find any refs. that pointed to Kurt being a 'Player/Predator' who's done this before)_


My gut tells me nothing is probably going on. But I do feel I need to make sure. I do have a bit OCD going on. These thoughts never in a million years crossed my mind until I saw those texts. I'm sure everyone on this board has also said "never in a million years". she comes from a good strong family with good values. Still talks to both parents each day (I talk to mine every 1-2 weeks) She was never promiscuous. 

As far as Kurt, I've never met him. He met her when he became her boss in fall 2012, let go in November 2013. She had a years worth of texts from him on her phone, mostly work related. Since they all travel ins that group he had asked that everyone text him updates on accounts, etc. 

She went to Indians game with him and his girlfriend "Michelle" last spring when she was in Cleveland. They were playing the team that we follow, and had good seats. She texted me photos throughout the night. The next day she thanked him via text and said it was really nice to meet Michelle and thanks for including me. Girlfriend is in her late 20s, VERY attractive, big age gap.

I know he has a young daughter, and had a vicious custody battle over her last year, he frequently needed time off for that. He was awarded custody. I know his mother was also very sick and he needed time off for that as well. She did text him when that was going on- hope your mom is doing better or to that effect. He didn't respond.

He also offered to find me a job in the company last year. Last year I was looking for something else and he wanted my resume. I also had a banking background and worked for same company for a number of years until economy tanked in 2008. Different line of business- never knew him since he wasn't in the company until 2012.

He has a Facebook and LinkedIn account both get minimal use it seems. Wife is not connected with him on either account. Though they have common connections on LinkedIn.

So no I never met him, and thought he was an above board guy. Until the texts in November. Is it possible he just had a lot to drink, figured he'd harmlessly flirt? Possible. But just as possible he is a predator just looking for a notch in his belt. I know nothing about the circumstances with the mother of his daughter so I won't speculate. But we know something must be messed up with mother if the father gets full custody. I know he has a really attractive GF 5-6 years younger than my wife, blonder, skinnier, single with no kids.

It's this 50/50 limbo that is killing me. Sometimes I think something is definitely going on, sometimes I think I'm insane.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Am I saying too much on here? Wife hasn't done any online research into marriage, infidelity, suspicious spouse, etc. but a I offering too many details here?


----------



## PhillyGuy13

We had a good "talk it out" last weekend. Like I said she is remorseful. She's agreed not to contact or see him. I just want to make sure that happens.

The things I can control are here- better father, more attentive husband, involved in the family. Date nights, helping around the house. Mini vacations planned. I've been working out more. 

Unless she is truly evil and the woman I married was a facade, she has no reason to turn to this guy for ANY needs.


----------



## Philat

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Am I saying too much on here? Wife hasn't done any online research into marriage, infidelity, suspicious spouse, etc. but a I offering too many details here?


If your W stumbled across your last post she would probably recognize herself--you could ask a moderator to move thread to private members section.

My bet is that there is nothing active going on, but you have some evidence that Kurt is capable of inappropriate action and that your W may be reluctant to stop him cold. She says she can, but you need to actually see her do it before you can fully trust. Vigilance!


----------



## davecarter

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Am I saying too much on here? Wife hasn't done any online research into marriage, infidelity, suspicious spouse, etc. but a I offering too many details here?


This thread can get put into the *Private Members Section* now...


----------



## weightlifter

Not really. Most of it is rather generic.

By all means ask a mod to move it to private if you wish to keep the truly random person out. Only 30+ posters or those who pay get into private.


----------



## LongWalk

Hard for her to stumble upon you on the Internet. Your browsing history is the security weak link.

Send a PI after her on her trip or VAR pen her purse.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## Machiavelli

CouldItBeSo said:


> So what then stops these "younger and hotter women" replacing him with two younger and hotter men?


Biology. 

Sure, a "cougar" can get short-term action in any numbers and combinations they desire, including Alphas, provided she's still hot enough (my successful clients in their 50's will frequently be hit on by men in their 20's). But, she's not going to get a "faithful" LTR out of a younger man unless she has a very large stack of cash or is willing to accept a "Delta" or "Gamma" grade younger man. She may well be willing to do that due to Alpha-burn, at least until she gets the Alpha/Sigma itch. Of course, that corresponding Alpha scratch will only be temporary. That may be plenty, if she can keep the Delta on the string; after all, "five minutes of Alpha beats five years of Beta."


----------



## Machiavelli

martyc47 said:


> Because age and looks are far down the list when it comes to things that women value in men, and that straight men value when it comes to competition.


Essentially correct. Women exclusively look for youth, muscle, and masculine features at two times, and these two times frequently overlap: 1) during ovulation; 2) one-night stands and other STRs.

Youth has the advantage due to higher testosterone for more muscularity, greater impetuosity, and sexual aggressiveness. 

"For my part I consider that it is better to be adventurous than cautious, because fortune is a woman... She is, therefore, always, woman-like, a lover of young men, because they are less cautious, more violent, and with more audacity command her." _Il Principe_, Chap XXV by Niccolò Machiavelli


----------



## Machiavelli

Stronger-now said:


> Why would you think being a woman = need a man? In ANY case of male WS, he also should have known that his wife can replace him with a hotter, smarter, funnier, more successful (whatever trait floats your boat) man OR up her sex rank first then replace the cheating man (as you suggest to so many man here. I think not only men can work to increase their sex rank).


Why would I think unicorns can't jump the sparkly rainbow?

I have 50 year old female clients who are very hot for their age. But they can't pull 30 year old men for an LTR (casual sex is another story). On other hand, I have a number of male clients with wives and LTR GFs (also my clients) who are 25-35 years younger.


----------



## Machiavelli

Hicks said:


> Insecurity is the most unattractive trait a man can show a woman.
> 
> And, that is what you are showing her.
> 
> In practical terms, if your goal is a strong marriage, a happy marriage and a sexual marriage, then allowing your insecurity to take hold is counterproductive to that goal.
> l
> If your wife called you a liar when you were not lying and would not give up on that, would you be happy with her? What would you do?
> 
> You are not going to convince her that she is untrustworthy. She has analyzed the situation and has decided she "would not have done anything" and that she is trustworthy. That's done.
> 
> Now you are a free man and can decide to trust her or decide not to trust her.
> 
> But what should a man do with a wife he cannot trust? Should he spy on her? Should he worry about whether she is doing x, y, z? Should he let worry eat him? IF I did not trust my wife I would not be married to her. Bottom line.
> 
> What should a man who trusts his wife do? He should build a marriage and family with her.


Only if she's worthy of trust and that is what OP has not yet decided. Put a PI on her ass for this trip and it will help him decide if she's worthy.


----------



## Machiavelli

PhillyGuy13 said:


> He also offered to find me a job in the company last year. Last year I was looking for something else and he wanted my resume.


In the old days of our British and Continental forebears, it was considered a gentleman's duty to promote the career of his mistress's husband, assuming the so-called "lover" was the husband's social superior.


----------



## Stronger-now

Machiavelli said:


> Biology.
> 
> Sure, a "cougar" can get short-term action in any numbers and combinations they desire, including Alphas, provided she's still hot enough (my successful clients in their 50's will frequently be hit on by men in their 20's). But, she's not going to get a "faithful" LTR out of a younger man unless she has a very large stack of cash or is willing to accept a "Delta" or "Gamma" grade younger man. She may well be willing to do that due to Alpha-burn, at least until she gets the Alpha/Sigma itch. Of course, that corresponding Alpha scratch will only be temporary. That may be plenty, if she can keep the Delta on the string; after all, "five minutes of Alpha beats five years of Beta."





Machiavelli said:


> Essentially correct. *Women exclusively look for youth, muscle, and masculine features at two times*





Machiavelli said:


> Why would I think unicorns can't jump the sparkly rainbow?
> 
> I have 50 year old female clients who are very hot for their age. But they can't pull 30 year old men for an LTR (casual sex is another story). On other hand, I have a number of male clients with wives and LTR GFs (also my clients) who are 25-35 years younger.


You seem to place much importance on female youth and sexual prowess of older men. Nothing wrong about that, if it floats your boat. What I don’t understand is this:

1. So, according to you: hot, older women only get casual sex with younger men because younger men rarely want to have long-term relationship with them. Makes sense to me. Not for reasons you list here, but I think with age-gap that wide, what could they possibly have in common. 

2. However, older men often have long-term relationship with much younger women. Maybe. You are probably right as I have seen it more often than the opposite. But you forget to answer several points:

How wealthy/famous are these much older men? You said that women look for youth (older men completely lack of it, no?), muscle, and masculine feature. Isn’t it easier for these younger women to actually find those three traits in young guys? Not guys who work hard to look young? Most couples that I know, the older men can look ugly as a sin (sorry), but he fulfils (mostly materialistic) needs of the younger woman. Needs that have nothing to do with those three traits. 

I know some young women look for fatherly figure. So basically their much older long-term partner can expect to take up fatherly-role in their relationship. A ripe breeding ground for entitled princesses. But again, it’s not the youth, muscle and masculine feature they look for. 

How faithful are these much younger women? Having a long-term relationship per se is easy. I don’t know why you seem to imply that we must work really really hard at it. If you are not that picky, the next one will come a knocking in a minute. Finding a faithful partner? We all can testify here, it’s not easy. But if youth is a priority, well you have a point. One must work really really hard to have a long-term relationship with a younger partner. First, they must look younger too. 

3. You still have not answered my question: why do you think that a male WS should not have known that his BS can easily replace him with a hotter (not necessarily younger), more successful, smarter, and overall better man?


----------



## tom67

Machiavelli said:


> Why would I think unicorns can't jump the sparkly rainbow?
> 
> I have 50 year old female clients who are very hot for their age. But they can't pull 30 year old men for an LTR (casual sex is another story). On other hand, I have a number of male clients with wives and LTR GFs (also my clients) who are 25-35 years younger.


I need to move to Obamastan
Just sayin.


----------



## CouldItBeSo

Machiavelli said:


> Biology.
> 
> Sure, a "cougar" can get short-term action in any numbers and combinations they desire, including Alphas, provided she's still hot enough (my successful clients in their 50's will frequently be hit on by men in their 20's). But, she's not going to get a "faithful" LTR out of a younger man unless she has a very large stack of cash or is willing to accept a "Delta" or "Gamma" grade younger man. She may well be willing to do that due to Alpha-burn, at least until she gets the Alpha/Sigma itch. Of course, that corresponding Alpha scratch will only be temporary. That may be plenty, if she can keep the Delta on the string; after all, "five minutes of Alpha beats five years of Beta."


What I think is that you are living in your own little "Greek" world with all the imaginations you have.


----------



## tom67

CouldItBeSo said:


> What I think is that you are living in your own little "Greek" world.


Look up the limbic brain and it's effects

Bedroom cues - AskMen


----------



## Machiavelli

Stronger-now said:


> You seem to place much importance on female youth and sexual prowess of older men. Nothing wrong about that, if it floats your boat.



It's not a matter of boat floating, it's a matter of "what is." Of course, there will always be outliers, but outliers is all they will be. 



Stronger-now said:


> What I don’t understand is this:
> 
> 1. So, according to you: hot, older women only get casual sex with younger men because younger men rarely want to have long-term relationship with them. Makes sense to me. Not for reasons you list here, but I think with age-gap that wide, what could they possibly have in common.


It's simpler than that: it's biology. Men are programmed to look for youth, even over beauty. Of course, it helps that women peak in attractiveness and fecundity at 25. No coincidence, either. This is why so many beautiful older women will opt for cosmetic facial surgery to look younger, even at the cost of some beauty. youth actually trumps beauty when a man is looking for an LTR.



Stronger-now said:


> 2. However, older men often have long-term relationship with much younger women. Maybe. You are probably right as I have seen it more often than the opposite. But you forget to answer several points:
> 
> How wealthy/famous are these much older men?


My older male clients with younger wives are not famous, some are well off, others not so well off. What they have in common is that even in their 70's they have a very youthful attitude and are very very fit. To hear them without seeing, you would think they were in their 20's. They also have T levels of young men (700 and up), either naturally or through supplementation. I don't think that's coincidental.



Stronger-now said:


> You said that women look for youth (older men completely lack of it, no?), muscle, and masculine feature.


When ovulating and looking for casual sex, women rate upper body muscularity, facial scars, and masculine facial features higher in attractiveness. These are all indicative of fighting power and good masculine genes to pass onto her offspring. The rest of the month, they're more into DiCaprio and Brad Pitt.



Stronger-now said:


> Isn’t it easier for these younger women to actually find those three traits in young guys.


Remember, as Machiavelli tells us, women are not merely attracted to the youth, but to his impetuous attack. An older guy with a good golden ratio physique and a bold attitude can push the same buttons in the limbic sexual programming. It's just that most guys don't know how to do that or have lost their mojo (no testosterone).



Stronger-now said:


> Not guys who work hard to look young?


Women, other than gym rats, do not want guys who spend hours working out. Subconsciously, they want the guy who looks like that without working at it, because he has the best genes. That's going to be the younger guys due to higher test. However, she will still have the desired limbic response to any properly proportioned male demonstrating a confident demeanor until he is stupid enough to point out how much time he spends working on his body.



Stronger-now said:


> Most couples that I know, the older men can look ugly as a sin (sorry), but he fulfils (mostly materialistic) needs of the younger woman. Needs that have nothing to do with those three traits.


If he only has dough, and no other attractive Alpha or Sigma traits, like power (including a posse of sycophant males) or sexual prowess, high social value (rock star, actor, tech baron) he is what is usually referred to as a "provider drone" or beta provider. He will be cuckolded.



Stronger-now said:


> I know some young women look for fatherly figure. So basically their much older long-term partner can expect to take up fatherly-role in their relationship. A ripe breeding ground for entitled princesses.* But again, it’s not the youth, muscle and masculine feature they look for. *


you're confused, women look for those things when they are fertile and ready to reproduce. They look for gentleness, steadiness, providerism, and fatherliness (daddy issues notwithstanding) when they are looking for the man to help raise their children by the young muscular dark triad baby daddy from the ONS.



Stronger-now said:


> How faithful are these much younger women?


See above.



Stronger-now said:


> Having a long-term relationship per se is easy. I don’t know why you seem to imply that we must work really really hard at it.


I didn't imply it nor did I state it. The concepts are quite simple and timeless.



Stronger-now said:


> If you are not that picky, the next one will come a knocking in a minute. Finding a faithful partner? We all can testify here, it’s not easy. But if youth is a priority, well you have a point. One must work really really hard to have a long-term relationship with a younger partner. First, they must look younger too.


Nope. Women are going to peak in sexual desirability at around age 25 and then start a slow decline until about 40, with a rapid fall off after that. Men are going to peak at about 35 with the rapid fall off at 50 after a long flat plateau. 



Stronger-now said:


> 3. You still have not answered my question: why do you think that a male WS should not have known that his BS can easily replace him with a hotter (not necessarily younger), more successful, smarter, and overall better man?


Because she sexually peaked at 25 and a high value male of the same age is able to get a woman of higher biological value (younger) than she is. Plus, a high value male of the same or younger age will not want to be burdened with another man's kids. However, a high value 65 year old male would often be willing to take on a 35 year old woman with kids, because her relatively young age makes her very attractive to him as she is still in the reproductive range.


----------



## Machiavelli

CouldItBeSo said:


> What I think is that you are living in your own little "Greek" world with all the imaginations you have.


Feel free to deal in facts, if you can come up with some.


----------



## CouldItBeSo

Machiavelli said:


> Feel free to deal in facts, if you can come up with some.


Your claims are not facts either.


----------



## Machiavelli

CouldItBeSo said:


> Your claims are not facts either.


Social science says otherwise. Are you a science denier?


----------



## soccermom2three

As a 49 year old woman, I would be delusional to think that a man 20 years younger, (even 10), would be interested in a LTR with me.


----------



## tom67

How to Project a Sexual State and Bypass a Woman's Logical Defenses


----------



## CouldItBeSo

Machiavelli said:


> Social science says otherwise. Are you a science denier?


Prove it.

@tom67 the quality of your sources is not that impressive. They are all telling "secrets" to you... Bummer now everyone knows them since they posted them on the Internet! :slap:


----------



## Machiavelli

CouldItBeSo said:


> Prove it.
> 
> @tom67 the quality of your sources is not that impressive. They are all telling "secrets" to you... Bummer now everyone knows them since they posted them on the Internet! :slap:


There's actually nothing wrong with Tom's source; despite the mercenary angle, the facts are solid and grounded in good social science research.

As for proof, Google is your friend. But here's one on the house to get you started: When Fertile, Women Want Manly Men.

You can google any of my contentions, other than anecdotal ones from my own experience, and click back through the popular press references and come up with the actual scientific sources from which they spring. The internet tubes are really cool that way.


----------



## tom67

Machiavelli said:


> There's actually nothing wrong with Tom's source; despite the mercenary angle, the facts are solid and grounded in good social science research.
> 
> As for proof, Google is your friend. But here's one on the house to get you started: When Fertile, Women Want Manly Men.
> 
> You can google any of my contentions, other than anecdotal ones from my own experience, and click back through the popular press references and come up with the actual scientific sources from which they spring. The internet tubes are really cool that way.


There are so many and I'm going to bed but yes I agree it was not the best.


----------



## tom67

I thought Mach was reaching also until I read some of these and it made sense with some of my life experiences and then I said oh wait a minute.
Anyway just read some of the links.


----------



## Machiavelli

tom67 said:


> I thought Mach was reaching also until I read some of these *and it made sense with some of my life experiences* and then I said oh wait a minute.
> Anyway just read some of the links.


Exactly. These are timeless behaviors, that don't merely happen in our everyday lives, but they appear in literature since the beginning of writing. Yet for the past 150 years we have been told to not believe what happens in front of our very eyes. Then science comes along and "proves" what we already know by personal experience, but unconsciously suppress to avoid cognitive dissonance.


----------



## Machiavelli

CouldItBeSo said:


> Your claims are not facts either.


Sure they are.


----------



## Stronger-now

Machiavelli said:


> Social science says otherwise. Are you a science denier?


Dude, I am a social scientist. And I will be the first to say social science is not natural science. We social scientist do not say "it is proven." We say "so far empirical evidence _indicate_ this and that." And I haven't mentioned the technicality with social science research design since most social science research cannot be performed in a controlled environment. You cannot simply say a "conclusion" from some social science research as "fact." Fact is, something that will always be true. You repeat the same thing over and over again, in different circumstance, it will always be true. Your claims? Nope.

I say "whatever floats your boat" because if it makes you feel better about yourself or beneficial for your professional life, good for you. But I thought I would say something because this whole thing perpetuates the fear of aging. And if you read in here, isn't this attitude of putting youthful attributes in pedestal, something to worship and thrive for, that in many cases here, a red flag of a cheating spouse? How many times we read: my spouse is feeling bad about getting older, they start to dress up younger, etc etc etc...and voila, yes, they are cheating. And to be honest, I don't really like the sexist attitude either.


----------



## davecarter

I'm going to have to go with Mach here...since I split with my wife in April last year, I tried to totally change my lifestyle, outlook, attitude, body-shape....the works.
Physically, pre-affair, I'd let myself go: I was 45 yrs old, 6'3" but was 230lb, out of shape, boring haircut, never really did anything but the odd running or cycling.

FF to today, I'm 200lb, BFI of about 17-20%, I _only _hit weights 4x a week, my 'Golden-Ratio' is looking TONS better than at anytime in my life, I shaved my head, I have a tanning session here and there (_LOL - sad but true_), I don't have a great job but I bought myself a BMW in Aug: since D-Day, my dates have aged 43, 36, 32, 40 and 28 - lookswise, none of them have been 8s or 9s...but beggers can't be choosers, eh?

Maybe it is my overall personality has changed, but there IS truth into what Mach is trying to put forward...


----------



## tom67

davecarter said:


> I'm going to have to go with Mach here...since I split with my wife in April last year, I tried to totally change my lifestyle, outlook, attitude, body-shape....the works.
> Physically, pre-affair, I'd let myself go: I was 45 yrs old, 6'3" but was 230lb, out of shape, boring haircut, never really did anything but the odd running or cycling.
> 
> FF to today, I'm 200lb, BFI of about 17-20%, I _only _hit weights 4x a week, my 'Golden-Ratio' is looking TONS better than at anytime in my life, I shaved my head, I have a tanning session here and there (_LOL - sad but true_), I don't have a great job but I bought myself a BMW in Aug: since D-Day, my dates have aged 43, 36, 32, 40 and 28 - lookswise, none of them have been 8s or 9s...but beggers can't be choosers, eh?
> 
> Maybe it is my overall personality has changed, but there IS truth into what Mach is trying to put forward...


It is the attitude adjustment that changes the dynamic also.


----------



## tom67

Stronger not everything can be quantified.
Many opinions are a good thing imo.


----------



## davecarter

tom67 said:


> It is the attitude adjustment that changes the dynamic also.


I think so too. My attitude / confidence are way, way higher as a result of what I've done to myself, physically as well...


----------



## tom67

davecarter said:


> I think so too. My attitude / confidence are way, way higher as a result of what I've done to myself, physically as well...


Good movie to watch believe me.

Payback (1999) - IMDb


----------



## davecarter

PhillyGuy13 said:


> My gut tells me nothing is probably going on. But I do feel I need to make sure. I do have a bit OCD going on. These thoughts never in a million years crossed my mind until I saw those texts. I'm sure everyone on this board has also said "never in a million years". she comes from a good strong family with good values. Still talks to both parents each day (I talk to mine every 1-2 weeks) She was never promiscuous.
> 
> As far as Kurt, I've never met him. He met her when he became her boss in fall 2012, let go in November 2013. She had a years worth of texts from him on her phone, mostly work related. Since they all travel ins that group he had asked that everyone text him updates on accounts, etc.
> 
> She went to Indians game with him and his girlfriend "Michelle" last spring when she was in Cleveland. They were playing the team that we follow, and had good seats. She texted me photos throughout the night. The next day she thanked him via text and said it was really nice to meet Michelle and thanks for including me. Girlfriend is in her late 20s, VERY attractive, big age gap.
> 
> I know he has a young daughter, and had a vicious custody battle over her last year, he frequently needed time off for that. He was awarded custody. I know his mother was also very sick and he needed time off for that as well. She did text him when that was going on- hope your mom is doing better or to that effect. He didn't respond.
> 
> He also offered to find me a job in the company last year. Last year I was looking for something else and he wanted my resume. I also had a banking background and worked for same company for a number of years until economy tanked in 2008. Different line of business- never knew him since he wasn't in the company until 2012.
> 
> He has a Facebook and LinkedIn account both get minimal use it seems. Wife is not connected with him on either account. Though they have common connections on LinkedIn.
> 
> So no I never met him, and thought he was an above board guy. Until the texts in November. Is it possible he just had a lot to drink, figured he'd harmlessly flirt? Possible. But just as possible he is a predator just looking for a notch in his belt. I know nothing about the circumstances with the mother of his daughter so I won't speculate. But we know something must be messed up with mother if the father gets full custody. I know he has a really attractive GF 5-6 years younger than my wife, blonder, skinnier, single with no kids.
> 
> It's this 50/50 limbo that is killing me. Sometimes I think something is definitely going on, sometimes I think I'm insane.


PhillyGuy,

Sorry for the (additional) thread-jack!

Based on what you've said in this post, I think you're alright here.
I'd be very surprised if your wife had a one-night-stand with this guy let alone start an affair.


----------



## Stronger-now

tom67 said:


> Stronger not everything can be quantified.
> Many opinions are a good thing imo.


I agree with you. Opinions. But countering differing opinion by touting this as "fact?" Since fact is always true anything different than the fact is always wrong, implying different opinion regarding this "sexual attraction science" is always wrong. Maybe I shouldn't have said anything. But oh well. 



davecarter said:


> I'm going to have to go with Mach here...since I split with my wife in April last year, I tried to totally change my lifestyle, outlook, attitude, body-shape....the works.
> Physically, pre-affair, I'd let myself go: I was 45 yrs old, 6'3" but was 230lb, out of shape, boring haircut, never really did anything but the odd running or cycling.
> 
> FF to today, I'm 200lb, BFI of about 17-20%, I _only _hit weights 4x a week, my 'Golden-Ratio' is looking TONS better than at anytime in my life, I shaved my head, I have a tanning session here and there (_LOL - sad but true_), I don't have a great job but I bought myself a BMW in Aug: since D-Day, my dates have aged 43, 36, 32, 40 and 28 - lookswise,* none of them have been 8s or 9s...but beggers can't be choosers, eh?*
> 
> Maybe it is my overall personality has changed, but there IS truth into what Mach is trying to put forward...


Good for you. Hopefully you will get to the point where you don't think that way, instead as someone with something to offer and expect someone with more or less equal contribution to the whatever relationship you are having now.


----------



## davecarter

Stronger-now said:


> Good for you. Hopefully you will get to the point where you don't think that way, instead as someone with something to offer and expect someone with more or less equal contribution to the whatever relationship you are having now.


Sorry, SN, I'm a *guy*.


----------



## Stronger-now

davecarter said:


> Sorry, SN, I'm a *guy*.


I thought so. Have never met a woman named "dave," yet.


----------



## davecarter

Stronger-now said:


> I thought so. Have never met a woman named "dave," yet.


----------



## CouldItBeSo

Machiavelli said:


> Sure they are.


Only in your little "Greek" world. Most of your posts are only theory.

The link you provided does not even apply to marriages and that survey/study has nothing to do with training, golden ratio or male physique.


----------



## CouldItBeSo

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Dammit it all makes sense now. She's been on a Greek yogurt kick for a while now. Now I know why. Lol
> 
> Interesting discussion.


Lol. :lol:

Sorry for the thread jack. I guess you haven't seen the Greek Golden Ratio -lecture posts with the small wiener-guy statue photo, complete with pie-charts and -diagrams.


----------



## LongWalk

I believe a great deal of what Mach writes. Yes, there is a tinge of mysogyny in what he observes from time to time, but how could the relationship between men and women be bland, given the good and bad that we do to each other?

In the length of history men have seduced women, gotten them pregnant and walked away to let them fend for themselves. I would expect some women to feel bitter. It is no wonder that women use emotion to try and get men to commit. Marriage serves the female agenda from a biological point of view.

But men have gone along with marriage. The elimination of slavery, would it be possible in a society in which large numbers of beta males had poor prospects of marriage?

Look at some martial civilzations: many have isolated men from women to keep in them in a pitch of aggression. The Brits separated the children of the eilte into special all male schools to play sports, receive corporal punishment, learn government, practice discipline, etc. This corp of men then went out and conquered the world.



> When male Spartans began military training at age seven, they would enter the Agoge system. The Agoge was designed to encourage discipline and physical toughness and to emphasise the importance of the Spartan state. Boys lived in communal messes and, according to Xenophon, whose sons attended the agoge, the boys were fed "just the right amount for them never to become sluggish through being too full, while also giving them a taste of what it is not to have enough."[76] Besides physical and weapons training, boys studied reading, writing, music and dancing. Special punishments were imposed if boys failed to answer questions sufficiently 'laconically' (i.e. briefly and wittily).[77]
> 
> Spartan men remained in the active reserve until age 60. Men were encouraged to marry at age 20 but could not live with their families until they left their active military service at age 30.


The essential truths that Mach describes do not resolve all of the complexities of the relationships between the sexes, but they conform to evolutionary logic.

A good looking young feminist journalist once disguised her self as an obese woman. One of the things that she learned was that men ceased to look at her a woman. There was no interest in her as a sexual being. Her normal state of existence was to be annoyed that men were checking her out. Being dismissed bothered her much more.


----------



## ReGroup

tom67 said:


> How to Project a Sexual State and Bypass a Woman's Logical Defenses


Tommy, why haven't you shared this stuff w/ me?

Typical White Sox Fan.


----------



## tom67

ReGroup said:


> Tommy, why haven't you shared this stuff w/ me?
> 
> Typical White Sox Fan.


----------



## Decorum

"Dude I am Social Scientist and its not a natural science so we cannot state anything as a fact" :rofl:
Are you sure? :rofl: No offense I hope. 

Ok I guess I will just have to go with many years of observation and go with Mach.

The human animal is consistent here I think, as far as biology is concerned.

Cognitively some people rise above the wiring; of course the bias here on TAM is huge, but ha ha narrow is the way.

I saw it beginning in JR high school (ah! puberty) and it has held true ever since, I have no science either, just an opinion.


----------



## tom67

Decorum said:


> "Dude I am Social Scientist and its not a natural science so we cannot state anything as a fact" :rofl:
> Are you sure? :rofl:
> 
> Ok I guess I will just have to go with 50 plus years of observation and go with Mach.
> 
> The human animal is consistent here I think. (Some people rise above the wiring, but precious few, ha ha narrow is the way.)
> 
> I saw it in high school and it has held true ever since, I have no science either, just an opinion.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FIMvSp01C8
 She blinded me with science 1983 I think.


----------



## not recognizable

martyc47 said:


> Because age and looks are far down the list when it comes to things that women value in men, and that straight men value when it comes to competition.


I don't mean this in a rude way, but that's a bit of a generalization, and incorrect as well.
Appearance and attractiveness are top of the list for many women. Age is a bit more flexible, if the man is still looking good.


----------



## not recognizable

Machiavelli said:


> Essentially correct. Women exclusively look for youth, muscle, and masculine features at two times, and these two times frequently overlap: 1) during ovulation; 2) one-night stands and other STRs.
> 
> Youth has the advantage due to higher testosterone for more muscularity, greater impetuosity, and sexual aggressiveness.
> 
> "For my part I consider that it is better to be adventurous than cautious, because fortune is a woman... She is, therefore, always, woman-like, a lover of young men, because they are less cautious, more violent, and with more audacity command her." _Il Principe_, Chap XXV by Niccolò Machiavelli


Wrong again.
I give up.


----------



## Machiavelli

tom67 said:


> I need to move to Obamastan
> Just sayin.


Nah. Just follow this guy's eating plan and train like these guys: brief and intense.


----------



## Machiavelli

Stronger-now said:


> Dude, I am a social scientist. And I will be the first to say social science is not natural science. We social scientist do not say "it is proven." We say "so far empirical evidence _indicate_ this and that." And I haven't mentioned the technicality with social science research design since most social science research cannot be performed in a controlled environment. You cannot simply say a "conclusion" from some social science research as "fact." Fact is, something that will always be true. You repeat the same thing over and over again, in different circumstance, it will always be true. Your claims? Nope.


Then you know that it is alleged by a peer reviewed study from Europe back in 2011 that >55% of academic social science papers are outright fraudulent, unfalsifiable, and not capable of reproductive results, and hard science is racing to catch up. Like the work done by this guy. However, in the specific example topic at hand, female attraction during ovulation, there are multiple studies with various twists all pointing in the same direction. Since we see the conclusions of these studies played out right here on this website on a daily basis as well as IRL, I'd say the conclusions are fairly reliable patterns of female reproductive behavior.

And you probably know about the particular "hard science" mega $$$ fraud I was referencing when I used the "denier" bit.



Stronger-now said:


> I say "whatever floats your boat" because if it makes you feel better about yourself or beneficial for your professional life, good for you. But I thought I would say something because this whole thing perpetuates the fear of aging. And if you read in here, isn't this attitude of putting youthful attributes in pedestal, something to worship and thrive for, that in many cases here, a red flag of a cheating spouse? How many times we read: my spouse is feeling bad about getting older, they start to dress up younger, etc etc etc...and voila, yes, they are cheating. And to be honest, I don't really like the sexist attitude either.


Nature is "sexist." Nature is "ageist." When it comes to Mother Nature, you can run, but you can't hide.


----------



## Machiavelli

davecarter said:


> I'm going to have to go with Mach here...since I split with my wife in April last year, I tried to totally change my lifestyle, outlook, attitude, body-shape....the works.
> Physically, pre-affair, I'd let myself go: I was 45 yrs old, 6'3" but was 230lb, out of shape, boring haircut, never really did anything but the odd running or cycling.
> 
> FF to today, I'm 200lb, BFI of about 17-20%, I _only _hit weights 4x a week, my 'Golden-Ratio' is looking TONS better than at anytime in my life, I shaved my head, I have a tanning session here and there (_LOL - sad but true_), I don't have a great job but I bought myself a BMW in Aug: since D-Day, my dates have aged 43, 36, 32, 40 and 28 - lookswise, none of them have been 8s or 9s...but beggers can't be choosers, eh?
> 
> Maybe it is my overall personality has changed, but there IS truth into what Mach is trying to put forward...


I salute you. Dropping 40# of fat and putting on 10# of muscle is a huge resculpting of the physique.

Most people would rather sit around and figure out why it won't work (per the latest feminist theory) than simply getting off their arse, doing it, and watching the pearly gates swing open.

You are correct that your personality will change as your body continues to change. The 8s and 9s (rarely) will come as you approach six pack land, and along with them will come absolute hordes of 6s and 7s. That really changes your personality as the veil is lifted on reality (as you have already experienced, only more so). Nothing breeds success like success. Your swagger changes, your stance changes, the apparent "danger factor" goes up. 

If you haven't already done so, read up on body language. You're probably missing a fair portion of the cues women are sending your way.


----------



## Machiavelli

not recognizable said:


> Wrong again.
> I give up.


Be specific. If women aren't looking for muscle in ONS, what is it they are looking for?


----------



## Machiavelli

davecarter said:


> PhillyGuy,
> 
> Sorry for the (additional) thread-jack!
> 
> Based on what you've said in this post, I think you're alright here.
> I'd be very surprised if your wife had a one-night-stand with this guy let alone start an affair.


PI on the trip will be a good indicator.

As has already been pointed out, may BHs on here had just as much info in as timely a fashion as PhillyGuy, warned all the principals off, yet the wife still went on to do the deed eventually. Some women get it in their heads that they are owed a fling with that guy come hell or high water. Such is the power of dopamine.


----------



## tom67

Machiavelli said:


> PI on the trip will be a good indicator.
> 
> As has already been pointed out, may BHs on here had just as much info in as timely a fashion as PhillyGuy, warned all the principals off, yet the wife still went on to do the deed eventually. Some women get it in their heads that they are owed a fling with that guy come hell or high water. Such is the power of dopamine.


Then they keep chasing that initial high and go from man to man and never really getting that first high again.
Quite sad.


----------



## tom67

Philly, we all hope this is nothing. It is a good idea to trust but verify for now.


----------



## Stronger-now

Decorum said:


> "Dude I am Social Scientist and its not a natural science *so we cannot state anything as a fact*" :rofl:
> Are you sure? :rofl: No offense I hope.


Yes I am offended, because you don't know how to paraphrase. Actually, you didn't even try to paraphrase me first, you quoted me and that's not even what I said. 

But I can say this: the only way I would reconsider what this guy peddles as (possibly) fact if these scientists experiment with a group of people they have observed from birth, isolated and never expose to and bombarded with what media and yea people like this guy's idea of what attractive is. 

I also can say: we all can look at history, and *it has been observed* for more than 50 years (roll my eyes here), that certain race is considered superior than others. What the hell was Mandela thinking right? This guy even intimated to someone that the guy is inferior because he is an introvert. Honestly? I will paraphrase another poster here, if you must look up and learn about how to be an "alpha," you most probably are not. I have a very low tolerance to bull, I was born with it. I didn't have to look it up. 



not recognizable said:


> Wrong again.
> I give up.


Me too.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Stronger-now said:


> Me too.


Hurray! Now if we can get everyone else that wants to argue about this to just take it to a dedicated thread the rest of us won't have to see it spread all over the boards.


----------



## thummper

My goodness! This thread has certainly gone off in a different direction hasn't it? :scratchhead: How ya doin' Philly?


----------



## PhillyGuy13

I'm doing good lol. You know, there is a guy in comic books that is bombarded with Gamma Rays, turns himself into an Alpha male. But I guess the fact that I read comics made me a Beta male...

Friday was a good day. Woke up to unexpected, uninitiated-by-me "fun". Kids were downstairs watching Disney. First time she had ever been comfortable doing that without the kids being fast asleep. Also snooped on the iPad history. She had been looking up hotel rooms and restaurants in our hometowns for weekend in February. (3 hours away in opposite directions). Didn't book anything, but that still made me feel good. She was also looking at garage shelving at Home Depot. Didn't feel as good there. 

We are heading on a better path. Just hope to get though the work trip unscathed. I think we will. But will verify.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## See_Listen_Love

I don't know if this is common knowledge or not, but since years I think this book tells it all:

Sperm Wars: The Science of Sex 
by Robin Baker 

It made me look at thinks like Machiavelli does for a long time, still not seen anything that suggests things are otherwise.


----------



## thummper

PhillyGuy13 said:


> I'm doing good lol. You know, there is a guy in comic books that is bombarded with Gamma Rays, turns himself into an Alpha male. But I guess the fact that I read comics made me a Beta male...
> 
> Friday was a good day. Woke up to unexpected, uninitiated-by-me "fun". Kids were downstairs watching Disney. First time she had ever been comfortable doing that without the kids being fast asleep. Also snooped on the iPad history. She had been looking up hotel rooms and restaurants in our hometowns for weekend in February. (3 hours away in opposite directions). Didn't book anything, but that still made me feel good. She was also looking at garage shelving at Home Depot. Didn't feel as good there.
> 
> We are heading on a better path. Just hope to get though the work trip unscathed. I think we will. But will verify.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ahhhhhhhhh. Nothing like a little "morning delight" to get the ol' ticker going for the day! :smthumbup: And looking up hotel rooms, too. My, my.


----------



## theroad

Stronger-now said:


> You seem to place much importance on female youth and sexual prowess of older men. Nothing wrong about that, if it floats your boat. What I don’t understand is this:
> 
> 1. So, according to you: hot, older women only get casual sex with younger men because younger men rarely want to have long-term relationship with them. Makes sense to me. Not for reasons you list here, but I think with age-gap that wide, what could they possibly have in common.


Child bearing is the reason. Time to settle down and have kids takes more then any gym can do for the 50 year old bee-itches.

It never amazes me how the Feminazi's forget basic biology and how it subconsciously drives us.


----------



## theroad

PhillyGuy13 said:


> I'm doing good lol. You know, there is a guy in comic books that is bombarded with Gamma Rays, turns himself into an Alpha male. But I guess the fact that I read comics made me a Beta male...
> 
> Friday was a good day. Woke up to unexpected, uninitiated-by-me "fun". Kids were downstairs watching Disney. First time she had ever been comfortable doing that without the kids being fast asleep. Also snooped on the iPad history. She had been looking up hotel rooms and restaurants in our hometowns for weekend in February. (3 hours away in opposite directions). Didn't book anything, but that still made me feel good. She was also looking at garage shelving at Home Depot. Didn't feel as good there.
> 
> We are heading on a better path. Just hope to get though the work trip unscathed. I think we will. But will verify.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wife is going away.

She is looking at restaurants and hotels 3 hours in the other direction.

Your are not worried.

Why is she looking at places 3 hours away from where she said she is going?


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Didn't I politely tell you to go away? Your reading comprehension skills are terrible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Yeah, her master plan is to bring our kids to my parents house 3 hours away so they can babysit, while she takes her lover to a hotel room 5 minutes from my parents house. All unbeknownst to me. I will wonder why the house is so quiet that weekend, and I I know my parents wouldn't think it was odd they were all in town without me. You tool.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hicks

Phillyguy.... You are doing great. When your wife is engaged in the marriage don't kick her in the face. I would only advise being careful on the spying.

Look at it this way. There are two possibilities. One is your wife is being truthful. One is your wife is not being truthful.

If your wife is being truthful, and she finds you spying, you will look like an insecure dork and she will get turned off to you sexually. It's way more attractive to be confident in your marriage. You get this confidence from within. By knowing that if she is a cheater (not being truthful), tha it's not important to catch her in real time.... You just know that if you catch her ever you will coldly shut down the marriage...


----------



## Machiavelli

PhillyGuy13 said:


> I'm doing good lol. You know, there is a guy in comic books that is bombarded with Gamma Rays, turns himself into an Alpha male. But I guess the fact that I read comics made me a Beta male...


The thing about Gamma Rays is that they're like a box of chocolates. One time you get Spider Man, the next time you get the Hulk. Or Elastic Man. If it weren't for Gamma Rays, Marvel Comics would not even exist.


----------



## thummper

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Yeah, her master plan is to bring our kids to my parents house 3 hours away so they can babysit, while she takes her lover to a hotel room 5 minutes from my parents house. All unbeknownst to me. I will wonder why the house is so quiet that weekend, and I I know my parents wouldn't think it was odd they were all in town without me. You tool.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh, whew! My heart started pounding there for a second. I thought, "Oh, no. He's found out some secret plan she's made. Damn! And things seemed to be going to well for them" But then it hit me.....Oh for heaven's sake. HE'S the lover!!! :smthumbup: Silly me! Philly, you're a lucky guy! Wish my wife would do that for me.


----------



## weightlifter

thummper said:


> Oh, whew! My heart started pounding there for a second. I thought, "Oh, no. He's found out some secret plan she's made. Damn! And things seemed to be going to well for them" But then it hit me.....Oh for heaven's sake. HE'S the lover!!! :smthumbup: Silly me! Philly, you're a lucky guy! Wish my wife would do that for me.


Lol i read phillys post wrong too thinking another one? Lol.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Sorry guys need a sarcasm font I guess lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## larry.gray

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Sorry guys need a sarcasm font I guess lol.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nah, it was easy to get for the people who fully read what you posted. The skimming readers are the ones that had trouble.


----------



## martyc47

not recognizable said:


> I don't mean this in a rude way, but that's a bit of a generalization, and incorrect as well.
> Appearance and attractiveness are top of the list for many women. Age is a bit more flexible, if the man is still looking good.


I meant comparatively. Those things are MORE important to men than women. That doesn't mean that women don't value those things.

Sometimes generalizations contain much truth. And the things we are willing to admit and say don't always go along with what we won't say and actually do. How many women (and men) say they just want someone "nice" while actively seeking out attention from people who are exactly opposite of the type they claim to prefer? Many.

My comment was in response to some claim about women actively seeking to replace their men with younger, hotter ones to the same degree that men do to them. All I was saying was that men and women are (yes, generally) different in this regard. Yes, men are more likely to place youth and beauty above all else, consciously and subconsciously. 

And the second part of my comment, was regarding the ways straight men compete or eye competition. I'm not hanging around getting jealous that some dude has prettier eyelashes or his highlights look fabulous. But I do notice when he gets a promotion, or some other career/status recognition or monetary reward, or throws around serious weight in the gym.

When it comes to women, we want Pretty Young Things. Your career accomplishments and such probably aren't going to make our erections harder. At least not as much as working on your ass will.

For the most part, the looks bar is set fairly low for men, provided we offer other things. By that I don't mean that men should be lazy and sloppy and fat. I just mean that most men who care a little bit about health, shower and groom themselves, wear clean clothes, and maintain a healthy weight, while carrying themselves with the right posture and attitude, are not going to be out-classed on looks alone.

ETA: Sorry, PhillyGuy. I hope you are doing well, and I think you probably have your situation under control.


----------



## CouldItBeSo

Sorry martyc47 but I think you are living in a Hollywood fake lala land where every old and ugly guy gets young and attractive women. They do this on purpose, just check the ages of main characters and the females are almost always 10-20 years or more younger. Doesn't work that way in reality. Maybe we can slowly get rid of that illusion when Hollywood fades into history where it belongs.


----------



## LongWalk

I also agree that Mach is a top poster in terms of intellectual insight. I am sure that brains are also a deal closer for men who want mate with women. Money and power also raise a man's status.

I think a PI on the business trip is a very good move. Arguments against the PI are cost. Also, it is entirely possible that nothing will happen OM may be busy and not show. So an inconclusive result is also entirely possible. Furthermore, PI can fail. If you tail someone around, restaurants and hotels, you can lose them.


----------



## CouldItBeSo

LongWalk said:


> I also agree that Mach is a top poster in terms of intellectual insight. I am sure that brains are also a deal closer for men who want mate with women. Money and power also raise a man's status.
> 
> I think a PI on the business trip is a very good move. Arguments against the PI are cost. Also, it is entirely possible that nothing will happen OM may be busy and not show. So an inconclusive result is also entirely possible. Furthermore, PI can fail. If you tail someone around, restaurants and hotels, you can lose them.


Actually, in the article he posted the women judged the masculinity only based on facial features (jaw, chin and brow). Intellect, money and other features had no impact on their attractiveness. So Machie here kinda shot his own theory down with that link. Also, remember it's possible to be highly intellectual but totally off-putting socially. Without social skills you are nothing.


----------



## Machiavelli

CouldItBeSo said:


> Actually, in the article he posted the women judged the masculinity only based on facial features (jaw, chin and brow). Intellect, money and other features had no impact on their attractiveness. So Machie here kinda shot his own theory down with that link.


No, he didn't. There are many studies and many links to them. I'll sum them up, just for you: be handsome, be young, be rich, have a great Vee torso, kick ass in front of the women, be a rock star, etc. Which one would you like to read first?



CouldItBeSo said:


> Also, remember it's possible to be highly intellectual but totally off-putting socially. Without social skills you are nothing.


Once a quy's IQ is over 150, there is a tendency to be unattractive, fortunately I just missed it by THAT much.


----------



## weightlifter

Arguments for a PI on the next two trips are easy.

Peace of mind. If she is clean on those two I would skip to the 4th. If that is clean with no contact I would skip to the 7th. We are now 3 years out.


----------



## Refuse to be played

Why can't he do all the 'do the better husband' stuff and hire a PI and/or spy app? Better safe than sorry IMO.


----------



## Machiavelli

Refuse to be played said:


> Why can't he do all the 'do the better husband' stuff and hire a PI and/or spy app? Better safe than sorry IMO.


Intel is required. No way around it.


----------



## weightlifter

Knock wood, At least I think this guy has a shot. Depends how persistent Kurt is. Im hoping bored and chasing other pvssy.

I really wanna see someone win lately.


----------



## CouldItBeSo

Machiavelli said:


> No, he didn't. There are many studies and many links to them. I'll sum them up, just for you: be handsome, be young, be rich, have a great Vee torso, kick ass in front of the women, be a rock star, etc. Which one would you like to read first?
> 
> 
> 
> Once a quy's IQ is over 150, there is a tendency to be unattractive, fortunately I just missed it by THAT much.


Here's the link by you to the article:


Machiavelli said:


> As for proof, Google is your friend. But here's one on the house to get you started: When Fertile, Women Want Manly Men.


Quote from that article:


> The men's photos were rated for attractiveness and measured for masculinity. (*A strong jaw, chin and brow* are masculine traits.)
> 
> "What we found was that, indeed, women who are with less *facially masculine men* — so more feminine men — they're the ones showing a shift toward men other than their partner,"
> 
> *A man's intelligence*, on the other hand, *made no difference* in his woman's wandering eye.


Seems you are disagreeing with the article you linked. No reason to go to the gym; just have a "masculine" face. Chin and jaw implants and new eyebrows. :rofl:


----------



## martyc47

CouldItBeSo said:


> Sorry martyc47 but I think you are living in a Hollywood fake lala land where every old and ugly guy gets young and attractive women. They do this on purpose, just check the ages of main characters and the females are almost always 10-20 years or more younger. Doesn't work that way in reality. Maybe we can slowly get rid of that illusion when Hollywood fades into history where it belongs.


Never said anything even CLOSE to that. In Holywood I think it's more about old guys getting young dudes, anyway- not that I know much about Hollywood.

This would be like me saying that YOU are living in a fake world where old ladies marry young, attractive men. And that mostly doesn't happen. Oh, that's right. It does- when they are gay, using them for money, and/or green card, or unattractive guys who are glammed up for books and Hollywood. The reality is a lot closer to what I described than (the fictionalized) How Stella Got Her Groove Back or Eat, Pray, Love.

ETA:
I also think there's some confusion and mixing up in these arguments when it comes to ovulation-time partners and ONS things v. relationships. And of course there are a lot of in-betweens. It's possible to be the right combination of beta and alpha to be a LTR and keep your partner from straying. It's not all lame beta providers being cheated on with super alpha studs.


----------



## bfree

CIBS, I respect your opinions but please give it a rest. This isn't helping the OP in his situation.


----------



## Machiavelli

CouldItBeSo said:


> Here's the link by you to the article:
> 
> 
> Quote from that article:
> Seems you are disagreeing with the article you linked. No reason to go to the gym; just have a "masculine" face. Chin and jaw implants and new eyebrows. :rofl:


Bless you hear darlin'. I know this makes your brain hurt, but what effect do you think high testosterone has on a man's facial development? Can you figure it out? Just look at female athletes on the juice if you don't know the answer to that question. 

High testosterone equals heavy brow, stronger jaw.

I will start a thread for this. 

Thread jack over.


----------



## just got it 55

Machiavelli said:


> Bless you hear darlin'. I know this makes your brain hurt, but what effect do you think high testosterone has on a man's facial development? Can you figure it out? Just look at female athletes on the juice if you don't know the answer to that question.
> 
> High testosterone equals heavy brow, stronger jaw.
> 
> I will start a thread for this.
> 
> Thread jack over.


Please do and all the rest of what you advocate

Can't wait I see 1000 pages

count me in

55


----------



## CouldItBeSo

Machiavelli said:


> Bless you hear darlin'. I know this makes your brain hurt, but what effect do you think high testosterone has on a man's facial development? Can you figure it out? Just look at female athletes on the juice if you don't know the answer to that question.
> 
> High testosterone equals heavy brow, stronger jaw.
> 
> I will start a thread for this.
> 
> Thread jack over.


My brain does not hurt at all, you wish. What you failed to explain again, is how this article and study you linked is in connection to your male physique gospel, AKA the golden ratio lecture. The article completely ignored your whole profession improving body physique and used just facial features to determine attractiveness.

Note: I do not agree with the article you linked so do not start explaining about golden ratio and limbic brain anymore please. We've all heard it by now.


----------



## bfree

CouldItBeSo said:


> My brain does not hurt at all, you wish. What you failed to explain again, is how this article and study you linked is in connection to your male physique gospel, AKA the golden ratio lecture. The article completely ignored your whole profession improving body physique and used just facial features to determine attractiveness.
> 
> Note: I do not agree with the article you linked so do not start explaining about golden ratio and limbic brain anymore please. We've all heard it by now.


I can answer that. Weight training increases a man's testosterone levels dramatically which then in turn cause the changes that Mach was alluding to. Does that help? Now can we end this thread jack and get back to helping the OP?


----------



## CouldItBeSo

bfree said:


> I can answer that. Weight training increases a man's testosterone levels dramatically which then in turn cause the changes that Mach was alluding to. Does that help? Now can we end this thread jack and get back to helping the OP?


Lol. Normal weight training does not cause your jaw or chin or brows to grow. When you workout you get a temporary increase. If you use steroids then sure but that's cheating anyway. You are too missing the fact that the study completely ignored physique as a factor. Did you even read it?


----------



## PhillyGuy13

So wife came home from work today. (Right after I got home from picking up the kids at daycare, with one of them projectile puking like the Exorcist right as I picked them up. Good times. If that was your kids' backpack with puke all over it- I apologize.)

She tells me that she wants to be completely honest with me, and that Kurt called her at work around noon today. She said he told her he was having lunch with a former coworker, and figured he would check in with her to see how she was doing. She says they spoke less than 5 minutes, as she had a client lunch to get to. He told her about his new job, which I knew of a week ago via LinkedIn. She says she did not bring up the Cleveland trip in 3 weeks, nor did he ask about it. She said this is the first time he contacted her since the November incident, and she wanted to be completely honest with me.

I am glad she told me. He called her work line and I wouldn't have been the wiser. But I had asked her to tell him not to contact her anymore if he did reach out, that I am aware of the texts and was furious. She didn't, she just hurried off the phone instead, supposedly. I know she still feels it was just drunken texts that got out of hand.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sandc

It's a little concerning that she didn't tell him not to contact her further. Sounds like she still likes him.


----------



## vi_bride04

Hmmmm and it looks like he is fishing the closer the trip gets.


----------



## LongWalk

Machiavelli said:


> Bless you hear darlin'. I know this makes your brain hurt, but what effect do you think high testosterone has on a man's facial development? Can you figure it out? Just look at female athletes on the juice if you don't know the answer to that question.
> 
> High testosterone equals heavy brow, stronger jaw.
> 
> I will start a thread for this.
> 
> Thread jack over.


The Cro-magnon man likes this:rofl:


----------



## PhillyGuy13

I think she thinks it's easier to just be polite and get off the phone quick. At least that's what I hope. She is not confrontational at all. Maybe it's time to send him a quick text.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

Usually TAMers advise against contact OM/W because it is the job of the BS to get their spouse to make the NC statement. However, maybe you should send him a mail.

Maybe something like:

Dear Kurt,

My wife told me that she feels uncomfortable when you contact her. Please respect her wish that you refrain from doing so in the future. This is also my wish as well.

Sincerely yours,

PhillyGuy

cc: PG's wife


----------



## bfree

PhillyGuy13 said:


> I think she thinks it's easier to just be polite and get off the phone quick. At least that's what I hope. She is not confrontational at all. Maybe it's time to send him a quick text.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe you should tell HER how you feel about it. It doesn't matter what her modus operandi is for dealing with him. This is about her reassuring you. She needs to deal with him the way YOU need her to. Maybe you should tell her that if she is not more confrontational with him you will be. Honestly I cannot fathom how blasé this was handled.


----------



## 3putt

bfree said:


> Maybe you should tell HER how you feel about it. It doesn't matter what her modus operandi is for dealing with him. This is about her reassuring you. She needs to deal with him the way YOU need her to. *Maybe you should tell her that if she is not more confrontational with him you will be.* Honestly I cannot fathom how blasé this was handled.


All of this but especially the bolded part.


----------



## Tobyboy

PhillyGuy13 said:


> She tells me that she wants to be completely honest with me, and that Kurt called her at work around noon today._Posted via Mobile Device_


Why do her words "wants to be completely honest" rub me the wrong way? Is it because it implies she hasn't been? Or.....is it her way to "control" the narrative of the call? 

PG13....you know your wife, is this how she normally converses?


----------



## workindad

PhillyGuy13 said:


> I know she still feels it was just drunken texts that got out of hand.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Would she feel that way if the situation were you and another woman? I doubt it.

I find it hard to believe that your wife is this naive. That is the most troubling part of your story to me. 

I do wish you well.

Good luck
WD


----------



## workindad

He's not her boss any more and think nothing of hitting on or calling his wife.

You should call his girlfriend and let her know he's still reaching out and why it upsets you.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Tobyboy said:


> Why do her words "wants to be completely honest" rub me the wrong way? Is it because it implies she hasn't been? Or.....is it her way to "control" the narrative of the call?
> 
> PG13....you know your wife, is this how she normally converses?


I was hounding her to make sure "you be completely honest with me" for several weeks, asking if he has contacted her. So I guess when he finally did contact her she wanted to be "completely honest"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PhillyGuy13

workindad said:


> He's not her boss any more and think nothing of hitting on or calling his wife.
> 
> You should call his girlfriend and let her know he's still reaching out and why it upsets you.


I've been trying to find out who she is... I only know her first name.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## martyc47

Kurt is a former co-worker (boss, is it?). He's a single man. She's married. I can't conceive of any reason (except one) that they would have to stay in touch at all, let alone meet up in person. Ever. 

Maybe Kurt stays in touch as a way of keeping his harem well-stocked, with back ups.

Maybe your wife just has poor boundaries and has no intent. That might be all there is to it. But I would still be troubled by "only" that. He's already shown that he doesn't respect boundaries, and she's only validating him by continuing to humor his interactions, IMHO.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

workindad said:


> Would she feel that way if the situation were you and another woman? I doubt it.
> 
> I find it hard to believe that your wife is this naive. That is the most troubling part of your story to me.
> 
> I do wish you well.
> 
> Good luck
> WD


Thanks WD appreciate it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tobyboy

PhillyGuy13 said:


> I was hounding her to make sure "you be completely honest with me" for several weeks, asking if he has contacted her. So I guess when he finally did contact her she wanted to be "completely honest"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok....makes sense. Good phrasing on her part. Shows she is listening. Still, she needs to send a NC letter/email to POS. 

Something simple and to the point.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Tobyboy said:


> Ok....makes sense. Good phrasing on her part. Shows she is listening. Still, she needs to send a NC letter/email to POS.
> 
> Something simple and to the point.


Yes - going to require it tonight. My hope was she would be out of sight, out of mind but clearly she was on his mind today. And while she didn't talk about the upcoming trip, he still knows it's coming. She may naively think he doesn't know/remember, but as a guy, I know he knows.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Yes - going to require it tonight. My hope was she would be out of sight, out of mind but clearly she was on his mind today. And while she didn't talk about the upcoming trip, he still knows it's coming. She may naively think he doesn't know/remember, but as a guy, I know he knows.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good.
Nip this now and clearly spell it out for her.


----------



## LongWalk

She reported that the hook is in the water. That is good.

What happened at the their last meeting... bad pizza or something.

NC is important, less because of Kurt but because she was open to his flirting.


----------



## dogman

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Yes - going to require it tonight. My hope was she would be out of sight, out of mind but clearly she was on his mind today. And while she didn't talk about the upcoming trip, he still knows it's coming. She may naively think he doesn't know/remember, but as a guy, I know he knows.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes he knows and I'd bet he tries to connect again before the trip. He most likely will within a few days of the trip. He would be hoping to familiarize more quickly this time.
She really needs to tell him to leave her alone. If she does without blaming you, he will not try anymore.


----------



## bfree

Philly, I want to mention one other thing. All of you know that trip is coming. Now he's contacted her in advance of that trip. She reported that contact to you. If you don't come down hard and do some serious mate guarding you are going to lose a tremendous amount of respect from both of them. The ball is in your court. If you drop the ball it's on you.


----------



## Philat

PhillyGuy13 said:


> I was hounding her to make sure "you be completely honest with me" for several weeks, asking if he has contacted her. So I guess when he finally did contact her she wanted to be "completely honest"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So far so good, IMO. Philly, what you still need to do:

1) Impress upon your wife that she needs to tell Kurt in no uncertain terms to stop contact (no more "checking in")

2) Impress upon your wife that you are closely scrutinizing the Cleveland trip and that you consider it to be an acid test of her promises.

I think her report to you on Kurt's contact was good. But she needs to make sure it's the next-to-last contact. Her NC message, however delivered, should be the absolute final one.


----------



## Tobyboy

Philat said:


> So far so good, IMO. Philly, what you still need to do:
> 
> 1) Impress upon your wife that she needs to tell Kurt in no uncertain terms to stop contact (no more "checking in")
> 
> 2) Impress upon your wife that you are closely scrutinizing the Cleveland trip and that you consider it to be an acid test of her promises.
> 
> I think her report to you on Kurt's contact was good. But she needs to make sure it's the next-to-last contact. Her NC message, however delivered, should be the absolute final one.


3) No alcohol consumption! Only with you present.


----------



## weightlifter

PM sent.


----------



## weightlifter

Man I DO NOT LIKE KURT!!!!


----------



## tom67

weightlifter said:


> Man I DO NOT LIKE KURT!!!!


He is a wannabe PUA.:iagree:
I hope you did firm, little emotion when talking to her.


----------



## weightlifter

We have no basis to judge the wannabe-ness of Kurt. Friend style players do not use bad boy or looks much. The easy stuff.

Even the best fail sometimes. Their rate is higher because they pick up the low hanging fruit signals earlier but they do fail on occasion.


----------



## tom67

weightlifter said:


> We have no basis to judge the wannabe-ness of Kurt. Friend style players do not use bad boy or looks much. The easy stuff.
> 
> Even the best fail sometimes. Their rate is higher because they pick up the low hanging fruit signals earlier but they do fail on occasion.


Again:iagree:
His w has to know of boundaries and what the consequences will be.
I truly hope she gets it.


----------



## thummper

Philly I'm not really sure why this whole thing is bothering me as much as it is since I don't know you or your wife, but I'm nearly sick to my stomach after reading these last posts. I don't think she has any idea what she's dealing with in this POS. He's going after her, my friend, and he isn't even being subtle about it. The fact that she didn't shoot him down when he first ran those disgusting texts by her and that she hasn't told him that she isn't going to see him, or talk to him, or basically have anything to do with him has given him GREAT expectations of bedding her on this trip. I hope you ream her out good and tell her in no uncertain terms that she is not to see him socially (or *otherwise* if you get my drift) and to give him a definite NO CONTACT ultimatum. The trip is fast approaching. The time for action is right now. Don't delay this, no matter how pissed at you she gets or how often she sings the "you don't trust me" song. *Stop **this right now for your sake and the sake of your mattiage and family!!!!!!!!!!!!*


----------



## tom67

thummper said:


> Philly I'm not really sure why this whole thing is bothering me as much as it is since I don't know you or your wife, but I'm nearly sick to my stomach after reading these last posts. I don't think she has any idea what she's dealing with in this POS. He's going after her, my friend, and he isn't even being subtle about it. The fact that she didn't shoot him down when he first ran those disgusting texts by her and that she hasn't told him that she isn't going to see him, or talk to him, or basically have anything to do with him has given him GREAT expectations of bedding her on this trip. I hope you ream her out good and tell her in no uncertain terms that she is not to see him socially (or *otherwise* if you get my drift) and to give him a definite NO CONTACT ultimatum. The trip is fast approaching. The time for action is right now. Don't delay this, no matter how pissed at you she gets or how often she sings the "you don't trust me" song. *Stop **this right now for your sake and the sake of your mattiage and family!!!!!!!!!!!!*


Why she didn't tell him to kick rocks is troubling imo.


----------



## thummper

I just do not understand why, when she knows how troubling this is for her husband, she's not shutting this predator down. I can't believe she's unaware of how close she's playing with fire. One false step with this guy, and I'm afraid her marriage will come crashing down. Dammit, why can't she see that and do something about it?! I can only imagine that Philly is going through hell right now. :slap: I don't remember feeling this frustrated for some other guy.


----------



## tom67

thummper said:


> I just do not understand why, when she knows how troubling this is for her husband, she's not shutting this predator down. I can't believe she's unaware of how close she's playing with fire. One false step with this guy, and I'm afraid her marriage will come crashing down. Dammit, why can't she see that and do something about it?! I can only imagine that Philly is going through hell right now. :slap: I don't remember feeling this frustrated for some other guy.


:iagree::iagree:
Denial
PTSD
He is hurting.


----------



## Tobyboy

PG13 can huff and puff all day long....in the end it's her choice to cheat or not. I think PG is doing great. He's set boundaries and consequenses. This trip will be the ultimate test. She'll either behave or fvck up.....her call! 

PG13.....get that NC letter done and sent. Also, timing of sending it is crucial. He'll break NC as soon as he receives it. You need to be present when she sends it and afterwards.


----------



## tom67

Tobyboy said:


> PG13 can huff and puff all day long....in the end it's her choice to cheat or not. I think PG is doing great. He's set boundaries and consequenses. This trip will be the ultimate test. She'll either behave or fvck up.....her call!
> 
> PG13.....get that NC letter done and sent. Also, timing of sending it is crucial. He'll break NC as soon as he receives it. You need to be present when she sends it and afterwards.


Yes he cannot control her but he can control what he will put up with and has to be serious with her.


----------



## Tobyboy

tom67 said:


> Yes he cannot control her but he can control what he will put up with and has to be serious with her.


I'm pretty sure PG13 has made her aware of the seriousness of the matter. She knows what's at stake. What she doesn't know.....is that Hall and Oaks are on the case.


----------



## tom67

Tobyboy said:


> I'm pretty sure PG13 has made her aware of the seriousness of the matter. She knows what's at stake. What she doesn't know.....is that Hall and Oaks are on the case.


Hall and Oates - Sara Smile (with lyrics) - YouTube


----------



## bfree

This thread reminds me so much of Devastated Dad and Changing Me's story. DD knew something was up with CM and her AP. He discovered them during an EA and made it clear that if they didn't stop there would be serious consequences. Did as much as he could without tying them both up. And yet he caught them both in her workplace office during "the act." They escalated the affair even though they had been confronted and put on notice. I hope that isn't the case here.


----------



## davecarter

bfree said:


> This thread reminds me so much of Devastated Dad and Changing Me's story. DD knew something was up with CM and her AP. He discovered them during an EA and made it clear that if they didn't stop there would be serious consequences. Did as much as he could without tying them both up. And yet he caught them both in her workplace office during "the act." They escalated the affair even though they had been confronted and put on notice. I hope that isn't the case here.


So, if that _is _the case here, there's little PhillyGuy13 can do, once his wife goes on this Cleveland-trip: unless he is also there, he can't stop Kurt trying to f*ck his wife whatsoever.

It's what his _wife _does that counts here.


----------



## not recognizable

"Those things are MORE important to men than women. That doesn't mean that women don't value those things.
"

That is certainly untrue for many women I know personally.


----------



## Hicks

Most people are conflict avoidant. Your wife is being conflict avoidant. But she did well in telling you that he called, and you should thank her for doing that and tell her you appreciate it.

You should also reassure her that you are sure she will not cheat on you with him. You should tell her you know she realizes he is just trying to get in her pants and will say or do anything to make that happen. She may disagree with you on that, but don't leave this conversation saying that you know how men operate and you know that this is the case. She can't refute your opinion. As a man, it's perfectly reasonable for you to define and characterize what is going on with the expectation that your opionion will become her opinion.

Then in a day or 2, you say... I was thinking more about him calling. And I know you are not interested in him. But I know how men operate. And the thing is as things are today, he thinks he has a chance to get you. I know you have no interest but he never had the door slammed in his face. So he's bound to keep trying. Men are driven to "bed" women... And it may not be today, tomorrow, but I can tell you that as long as he thinks he has a chance, he will keep trying. My recomendation is that someone has to "slam the door in his face".... I will be happy to handle that for you. Let me know what you think.


----------



## Philat

Hicks said:


> Most people are conflict avoidant. Your wife is being conflict avoidant. But she did well in telling you that he called, and you should thank her for doing that and tell her you appreciate it.
> 
> You should also reassure her that you are sure she will not cheat on you with him. You should tell her you know she realizes he is just trying to get in her pants and will say or do anything to make that happen. She may disagree with you on that, but don't leave this conversation saying that you know how men operate and you know that this is the case. She can't refute your opinion. As a man, it's perfectly reasonable for you to define and characterize what is going on with the expectation that your opionion will become her opinion.
> 
> Then in a day or 2, you say... I was thinking more about him calling. And I know you are not interested in him. But I know how men operate. And the thing is as things are today, he thinks he has a chance to get you. I know you have no interest but he never had the door slammed in his face. So he's bound to keep trying. Men are driven to "bed" women... And it may not be today, tomorrow, but I can tell you that as long as he thinks he has a chance, he will keep trying. My recomendation is that someone has to "slam the door in his face".... I will be happy to handle that for you. Let me know what you think.


I like the door-slamming image. As in an unwanted but persistent solicitor (in American usage).


----------



## thummper

Great advice, Hicks! :smthumbup:


----------



## sandc

thummper said:


> I just do not understand why, when she knows how troubling this is for her husband, she's not shutting this predator down. I can't believe she's unaware of how close she's playing with fire. One false step with this guy, and I'm afraid her marriage will come crashing down. Dammit, why can't she see that and do something about it?! I can only imagine that Philly is going through hell right now. :slap: I don't remember feeling this frustrated for some other guy.


I can't believe it either. She's either in denial or she's trying to see how close she can get to the cliff without falling over the edge. 

I'm also concerned that she didn't follow PG13's wishes and just shut him down and say don't contact her again. Even as a guy I rarely stay friends with people at my old job. She's got to be maid to understand that she's being pursued. If she does know and likes it, she's got to be made to understand that she's either all in or she'll be set free to be pursued.


----------



## thummper

This Kurt is a predator. Please excuse the time-worn analogy, but he's a wolf, he's on the hunt, and he's got the scent. The fact that she didn't tell him to knock it off, she's happily married, when he engaged in that semi-x-rated text exchange does not speak well of her and has given him the encouragement he needs to try and bed her. He should have been slapped down hard at that point and told to never speak to her like that again! What in the hell is she thinking?! Philly says she has a non-confrontational personality, but *come on*! I see Philly said he was going to lay it on the line last night with her about going TOTALLY non-contact with this homewrecker. I'd like to hear from him how that went. I hope against hope that she can see the cliff she's approaching before it's too late to turn back. Ol' Kurt just needs to get his foot in the door of her hotel room and he'll be after her like a pig after a pumpkin. My heart is aching for this couple and for their little family because of what she's *allowing *to go on. :wtf:


----------



## The Cro-Magnon

She has seemingly zero boundaries. How does she tell a man "no"? How is she going to say "no" to Kurt if he shows up at her meeting and says "let's just go for coffee"? You'd think the pain her husband is going through, along him openly showing his interest in her sexually with that disgusting text exchange, would be enough of a reason to SCREAM at Kurt "fcuk off! Never attempt to communicate with me again or I'll call the cops" but instead she's STILL having indulging him when contacts her, and has nice conversations with him. Wtf is wro.g with her? Guess Kurts feelings matter more than her husband's.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PhillyGuy13

We did had a long talk about boundaries last night. I was pleased she told me that he called and I let her know that. I told her if he calls again I expect her to tell him to never contact her again. She agreed.

The more I thought about it, I am skeptical right now that a NC letter going out right this minute might be poor timing. I don't want him pumping up his chest when he gets the letter and then goes out looking for her in two weeks. Seeing what happens in Cleveland and then sending a letter at that point may be a better path, but I'm open to suggestions as to the timing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nucking Futs

PhillyGuy13 said:


> We did had a long talk about boundaries last night. I was pleased she told me that he called and I let her know that. I told her if he calls again I expect her to tell him to never contact her again. She agreed.
> 
> The more I thought about it, I am skeptical right now that a NC letter going out right this minute might be poor timing. I don't want him pumping up his chest when he gets the letter and then goes out looking for her in two weeks. Seeing what happens in Cleveland and then sending a letter at that point may be a better path, but I'm open to suggestions as to the timing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think you need to do any further contact with Kurt at this time. Make sure Hall and Oats are set up for the trip and sit back and see what happens.

You might want to mention to your wife that you're thinking about flying out to Cleveland to have a little chat with Kurt.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

I was gonna go Air Supply on them but "Here I Am" is NOT the approach I want them to take.

Sorry that was terrible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## thummper

I was glad to see that post, Phillyguy. I detect some humor there, and if you can feel good enough to wordplay, things must be going well with you and "Anna" and her understanding of what needs to be done. I hope she can follow through. From what you've said about her, she sounds like a very nice, caring person who doesn't want to give offense, even to a lying snake like Kurt. She might be remembering him the way he used to be when they worked together before he became a letch. Hopefully she is seeing that he is now looking at her in a new light with a lot more than friendly feelings for her. It might not hurt to go over the original texts that set this whole thing in motion, pointing out every place where he steps over the line and her lack of putting a stop to it.


----------



## thummper

PhillyGuy13 said:


> We did had a long talk about boundaries last night. I was pleased she told me that he called and I let her know that. I told her if he calls again I expect her to tell him to never contact her again. She agreed.
> 
> The more I thought about it, I am skeptical right now that a NC letter going out right this minute might be poor timing. I don't want him pumping up his chest when he gets the letter and then *goes out looking for her in two weeks*. Seeing what happens in Cleveland and then sending a letter at that point may be a better path, but I'm open to suggestions as to the timing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Philly didn't you say something about the date of the trip being changed and Kurt not knowing about it. Has he been made aware of the change, and if so, who told him?


----------



## PhillyGuy13

I did but I was mistaken. The company usually gives at least 6 weeks notice in order to facilitate cheapest travel costs. So we thought the trip would be later. They ended up going with the original dates that were provided.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PhillyGuy13

So, just found out we are going away for the weekend. In laws are watching the kids. It's been 0 degrees up here, and I'm praying I don't get hit with the stomach bug that's gone through our house this week. No place special or exotic, but a nice dinner and hotel at least.


She's either a great wife or really evil trying to throw me off the scent. I do feel guilty that I even think it might be to throw me off the scent. But maybe that's her plan. Round and round we go. I hate this. Looking forward to the weekend, but hate that I have these thoughts.


----------



## sandc

Just put the thoughts on hold for now and enjoy the weekend. Let your plan play itself out.


----------



## thummper

PhillyGuy13 said:


> So, just found out we are going away for the weekend. In laws are watching the kids. It's been 0 degrees up here, and I'm praying I don't get hit with the stomach bug that's gone through our house this week. No place special or exotic, but a nice dinner and hotel at least.
> 
> 
> She's either a great wife or really evil trying to throw me off the scent. I do feel guilty that I even think it might be to throw me off the scent. But maybe that's her plan. Round and round we go. I hate this. Looking forward to the weekend, but hate that I have these thoughts.


Don't let this ruin your weekend with your sweetie. I really do think she's trying to make you see that you're her only love and not to worry about her (although I know you will.....I think the rest of us will, too.) You two just get wrapped up in each other and enjoy your special time together without your little ones. Kids are great, but there are times, well...., when husband and wife need to be alone together for some *special*, uh...communication. :smthumbup: Like I said, ENJOY!!!


----------



## PhillyGuy13

It should be fun. We have weekends planned in March and May as well. Just need to get past the next two weeks...


----------



## weightlifter

Philly bro.

Hold to your plan. Let the chips fall where they will. Remember this is not even the highest chance of a problem. It is the NEXT trip which should be like June-ish.

My point is this. YOu have zero evidence of anything physical so you dont have mind movies. Yes I understand she blew your trust. Mine did too. I get it. Yours appears into you at least on the surface.

Honestly. Enjoy this weekend and let the worries hit the week of the trip to Cleveland. That week you will have all your bros and sisters here to fall back on if it does go bad. For now, Wine her. Dine her. Fvck her until your balls ache and you cant even get it up anymore. Then take a shower with her to clean up her cooter and go down on her after.


----------



## tom67

weightlifter said:


> Philly bro.
> 
> Hold to your plan. Let the chips fall where they will. Remember this is not even the highest chance of a problem. It is the NEXT trip which should be like June-ish.
> 
> My point is this. YOu have zero evidence of anything physical so you dont have mind movies. Yes I understand she blew your trust. Mine did too. I get it. Yours appears into you at least on the surface.
> 
> Honestly. Enjoy this weekend and let the worries hit the week of the trip to Cleveland. That week you will have all your bros and sisters here to fall back on if it does go bad. For now, Wine her. Dine her. Fvck her until your balls ache and you cant even get it up anymore. Then take a shower with her to clean up her cooter and go down on her after.


:iagree:
It's called mate guarding :whip::whip::whip::woohoo:


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Thanks guys. Coincidently, those are all things I enjoy so that will work out well

Also found out yesterday through normal conversation that the new boss is based in Maine. I always assumed Cleveland. So that should cut down on at least one Cleveland trip a year as they get together as a group.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just got it 55

thummper said:


> Don't let this ruin your weekend with your sweetie. I really do think she's trying to make you see that you're her only love and not to worry about her (although I know you will.....I think the rest of us will, too.) You two just get wrapped up in each other and enjoy your special time together without your little ones. Kids are great, but there are times, well...., when husband and wife need to be alone together for some *special*, uh...communication. :smthumbup: Like I said, ENJOY!!!


Nothing beats hotel sex


----------



## Chaparral

Can't remember, did she fix her tablet where you can see her texts again?


----------



## PhillyGuy13

No, but I am able to turn them on and off without detection when she is out of the house when I want to.


----------



## Hicks

IF your wife is doing all these things to make you feel better and you continue to treat her like a cheater and she finds out, she is going to be over the top angry with you.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Hicks said:


> IF your wife is doing all these things to make you feel better and you continue to treat her like a cheater and she finds out, she is going to be over the top angry with you.


On the other hand, if she's really a cheater and is doing all these things to lull you into a false sense of security you're going to be screwed if you stop.


----------



## davecarter

Nucking Futs said:


> On the other hand, if she's really a cheater and is doing all these things to lull you into a false sense of security you're going to be screwed if you stop.


True, but I don't think all spouses should be guilty-until-proven-innocent...based on a potential APs fishing/probing.

All PG13s wife _hasn't_ done...is to shut-down Kurt 100%.
That's the main issue here.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Wife's texts while she was on the road.*



davecarter said:


> True, but I don't think all spouses should be guilty-until-proven-innocent...based on a potential APs fishing/probing.
> 
> All PG13s wife _hasn't_ done...is to shut-down Kurt 100%.
> That's the main issue here.


And if for some reason she finds out Philly is monitoring her all he has to say is that since she was reluctant to shut him down he felt a need to make sure nobody interfered in his marriage.


----------



## convert

He is just protecting his marriage.
It is OK to trust BUT verify.
I now know it is not good to trust anyone 100%.
and i mean anyone
No wait let me think about that ........ No I have it right


----------



## Philat

davecarter said:


> True, but I don't think all spouses should be guilty-until-proven-innocent...based on a potential APs fishing/probing.
> 
> *All PG13s wife hasn't done...is to shut-down Kurt 100%.
> That's the main issue here.*


Right, and that's no small thing. Her failure to decisively enforce boundaries has led to Philly's uncertainty and mistrust.


----------



## adriana

bfree said:


> This thread reminds me so much of Devastated Dad and Changing Me's story. DD knew something was up with CM and her AP. He discovered them during an EA and made it clear that if they didn't stop there would be serious consequences. Did as much as he could without tying them both up. And yet he caught them both in her workplace office during "the act." They escalated the affair even though they had been confronted and put on notice. I hope that isn't the case here.



Bfree, respectfully I disagree with you about it. I'm familiar with DevastatedDad's thread. It was unbearable to read but I think that the way he handled the situation was simply terrible. Had he taken more decisive measures to prevent his wife's then emotional affair from escalating, the physical part wouldn't have happened. 

If my memory doesn't fail me, after the initial discovery of his wife's emotional affair with his best friend, DevastatedDad confronted her, and them met the OM at the bar to do the same. After a few beers/drinks and assurance from the OM that the affair would end , they ended up holding hands and discussing how important their friendship was. DevastatedDad was actually so found of the OM that he even wrote a letter to proclaim neverending friendship between them once again. How sweet!

Again, the OM clearly wanted to screw Changing Me, and vice versa, but DevastatedDad, instead of informing his wife about the affair, sent him the "neverending friendship" letter.... WTF?

And, all four of them kept on socializing together as DevastatedDad tried to focus on pretending that nothing happened and preserving the "oh so comfortable" status quo than addressing the affair in more decisive manner and preventing it from escalating. The rest is history.


----------



## bfree

Adriana, you're correct in how DD's and CM's situation evolved. I guess I was cautioning Philly to NOT allow the EA to develop into a PA (presuming it hasn't already) and to take decisive action to squash this situation before it flew out of control. It seems that Philly has things covered to the extent that he can. I just pray that his wife had enough self control to realize what she could potentially lose if she insists on pursuing this destructive course.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

I think we are on a good path. We've both made positive changes to the relationship, and how we communicate. We've talked enough over e past 10 weeks that she knows how I feel and where I stand, and what a mistake she made that night. If I had to bet money on it, I think she will behave herself next trip and any subsequent trips as well.

Do I enjoy checking her messages? Her browser histories? Heck no. I'm shocked she hasn't crashed the Gymboree website she is on there so much. Am I proud that I am constantly checking up on her, that I'm taking measures to keep an eye on her on her next trip? No. It disgusts me. Especially since I've found nothing since those texts on November 15. (Other than that, how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln?). But she put me in this position, whether intentional or otherwise. 

She has appeared to be completely open and honest with me. There was zero contact until his "check in" earlier this week. And she reported back right away. She is definitely building up trust credits. I appreciate that and I have told her that.

The blessing (and curse) is that he is 500 miles away. I don't need to worry when she is out shopping, off at her parents, or at work during the day. But when she is away- I know nothing about this guy. It could have all been he was really drunk and he got frisky over texts, but never thought about her that way before. It could be, and I believe 1000 percent, he wants to bed my wife. I have to make sure my wife is strong enough and respects me and our family enough to make sure that never happens. 

I'm not going to apologize for it. It's easy to build up trust when the guy is far away. It needs to be proven to me as much as possible that she will behave on the road. She has assured me there will be no contact. And she has assure me countless times, I am the only guy she ever wants to be with. I believe her, but I won't be made a fool either.

Sorry for ranting.


----------



## arbitrator

*Philly: I'm so very glad that you feel the way that you do regarding your relationship's current status. And I wish the both of you every success in that endeavor.

But because she has already given you "probable cause" and has furthermore left a smoking gun, or in the very least, a "warm pistol" at your feet, whether you like to or not, you will still need to periodically check on her activities to fully regain all of your former trust and faith with her.

Please always remember to trust your "gut instinct," if a doubt should ever re-enter your mind. Other than for any hard evidence that you may stumble upon, your gut is absolutely the best barometer that a WS could ever hope to have!

I wish you well, my friend!*


----------



## weightlifter

Foolish stop checking entirely.

It just becomes less and less so goes from full time to extremely part time, more like audits. My wife red flagged recently. unknown FB purchases. (You can pay to communicate with non friends). I finally got on her FB. She is wasting money on a game. Doesnt exactly make me happy but beats her communicating with that half literate hillbilly ex of hers.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Yeah, I've come to the realization over the past couple of months that things may not ever quite be the same. I am checking up on her much less, but I don't think I will ever get to the point where I won't ever occasionally be checking. Hopefully I will, at some point, but just not today.

The Trip is a week away. Its already starting to stress me out. I'm someone who has to be in control, and I'll have a lack of control next week. I know I just have to play it cool, and see what happens, see what we find. Assuming we get through it unscathed, that's a big relief/hurdle for me. I can exhale some at that point.

Last weekend was good. Nice dinner, did some shopping (her favorite activity) got a room. Played Parcheesi  This will make me sound like a horrible parent, but honestly the best part was being away from the kids for a day and actually having an uninterrupted conversation.


----------



## convert

Yes it will be different from now on, but I think is ok to check every once in awhile.
I am a believer in not trusting anyone at 100%, well now anyway.


----------



## weightlifter

convert said:


> Yes it will be different from now on, but I think is ok to check every once in awhile.
> I am a believer in not trusting anyone at 100%, well now anyway.


BUT I HATE THAT! 
Yea I know reality blows.


----------



## MrHappyHat

Bold is better than meek when it comes to mate guarding.


----------



## weightlifter

Come here and vent as necessary PG13. Knock wood but I read your odds light years better than most here in CWI.


----------



## davecarter

convert said:


> Yes it will be different from now on, but I think is ok to check every once in awhile.
> I am a believer in not trusting anyone at 100%, well now anyway.


Yep, same here - I don't trust anyone, let alone women.
However, I hope PhillyGuy doesn't have to think he's forever having to check or 'mate-guard' his wife for the next 12-18 months or whatever...that's just not living.


----------



## The Middleman

PhillyGuy13 said:


> The Trip is a week away. Its already starting to stress me out. I'm someone who has to be in control, and I'll have a lack of control next week.


Keep in mind, that the lack of control you mention above is a choice that you are making. I'll ask this again: You making this trip as well, either with or without her knowledge, is it out of the question? If so, why? Why don't you just go and put your mind at ease.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Yeah you've asked before and I've answered before. She needs to learn to behave on her own, the idea of accompanying her on each business trip for the foreseeable future doesn't sound appealing and is no way to build trust anyway. We have no babysitter who can do overnights, mid week. We have no family or close friends within 150 miles of where we live. Pull the kids out of school and take them with me you say? No thanks- have you ever travelled with two kids five and under? What would they do in a cold weather city for three days anyway? And how do I watch the wife while I'm watching kids? Flights to Cleveland are 600 per person. Even if I went without her knowledge, what do I do, sit in the corner of the bar and hope I'm not recognized? Maybe wear fake glasses and a mustache? The solution I've come up with is much more cost effective, and will be handled professionally. The only way I can learn to trust her is for me to verify she behaves on her own. That can't be done if I am there. So maybe when I said I wasn't in control wasn't the best wording. The situation is under control. But I'm still on edge, sorry. Not often I hire a PI to follow my wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Time for a var pen.

I never got the idea you could have 100% trust in anyone. I had a great childhood with many friends but 100% trust was never a concept.


----------



## Philat

Philly, as Weightlifter says, the signs for you are good. Something to consider: If your W behaves like a proper angel on this trip where do you go from there? You said you like to be in control, but being controlling and being trusting are contradictory. Basically, you will need a plan to ratchet down the control and up the trust (if she shows she deserves it, that is).


----------



## turnera

Coming in late, but Philly, are you guys doing stuff like HNHN and the questionnaires?


----------



## PhillyGuy13

I've VAR in the car and bedroom when I'm away. Come up empty. Pen in the purse would be risky. 3yo is always dumping her purse.

Philat- yes something I need to think about, which I will next week assuming everything ok. I still want to do a NC letter after the trip. I said before I don't want to send it before the trip and give him a reason to seek her out. He knows other coworkers too so he can find her easy enough. 

I do need to build up trust, I'm sure I will be soliciting advice here. Cut back on the checking. Who knows when next trip to Cleveland will be. Could be summer, fall, next year. New boss is insane so less reason to go to Cleveland for her individual group.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## weightlifter

New boss is insane so less trip near Kurt.

Wow talk about a double edged sword.

Fortunately she has BIG gaps between trips. I would still do PI on the trip after this whenever that is. AND not do anything much more than keep your eyes open for red flags and do little else if this trip comes up empty.

meanwhile make her feel loved and desired. Massive amounts of wining dining and insemination required. HNHN will provide the formula that works for her.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Oh geez I meant new boss is IN MAINE. No offense meant to anyone in Maine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 3putt

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Oh geez I meant new boss is IN MAINE. No offense meant to anyone in Maine.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, I guess there's a _*slight*_ difference there.

Gotta love autocorrect. It's almost as fun as 'the guy's' posts before he discovered the wonders of spellcheck. :rofl:

ETA: No offense, TG!


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Working thru Not Just friends. Going to order His need her needs soon...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

When she goes on her trips, if she decides to cheat again, there isn't much you can do about it(short of hiring a PI, or tailing her yourself). It's really a choice for her and her only to make.

They were drinking together and ended up holding hands on the last trip if I remember correctly. So there is potential for more to happen. You can't deny that.

If something else happens and you find out, you can't be afraid to walk away. She has to know up front that you will 100% file for divorce. If this does happen and you file for D. Your wife should *pursue you* and do the heavy lifting for a R. If she doesn't, it was already too late.

I know some of us are hopping on you kinda hard. That's because we've seen many situations like your's where the BS thought he/she a good handle on what was happening - Only to realize later that their WS went a lot further and faster then they ever thought possible.


----------



## LongWalk

The circumstantial evidence points to cheating. Up your sex ranking Phillyguy.


----------



## weightlifter

Im pulling for ya bro!

Vent here the next week. WHEN she comes home and you are the happiest man who ever wasted $500. Fvck her till your balls hurt!

In Maine are the men insane? LOL!


----------



## tom67

weightlifter said:


> Im pulling for ya bro!
> 
> Vent here the next week. WHEN she comes home and you are the happiest man who ever wasted $500. Fvck her till your balls hurt!
> 
> In Maine are the men insane? LOL!


You're a poet and didn't know it.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Wife's texts while she was on the road.*



weightlifter said:


> In Maine are the men insane? LOL!


Ummm.....yeah


----------



## Chaparral

I do not see how you can avoid either a pen var or a pi. Your wife is going somewhere where you have no way to know whats going on. If there was anything, they will be super paranoid and will not make a stupid mistake again. I am not saying they are. But, if cheating is going on, cheaters lie like professional actors act.

If you get a pen var, test it and make sure to slip it in her purse just before she leaves. And maybe another regular pen too possibly. The pen vars really work as pens and have done some real good here. 

If I were in your situation, the doubt would blow my mind. Just sayin'


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Sigh. PI booked.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Yep, people are going harp on you REGARDLESS of what you believe or how honest YOU feel your wife is being now. 

Yes, you know her better than everyone on this board.
Most on this board, bitter and not, can see things more objectively than you.


In other words, when you are in love you always see the best in your spouse. Heck, that's why things like this always almost always get caught just before the affair or way after. Most people always ignore the little things.


----------



## Thundarr

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Sigh. PI booked.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think it's a smart choice. Soon you'll have some piece of mind hopefully or if not then you'll know what you're dealing with.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

I understand people will harp on me. I came to this forum to get straight talk. Just hate repeating myself. Pet peeve of mine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Philat

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Sigh. PI booked.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Philly, sounds like you have it covered. Chill for now.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Just hate repeating myself. Pet peeve of mine.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LOL. Welcome to the internet and forums, I lost that pet peeve many years ago.


----------



## The Middleman

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Yeah you've asked before and I've answered before.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I must have missed your original response, I'm sorry. 

If you can't do it yourself, a PI is the next best thing. Good luck.


----------



## thummper

God, Philly, my heart is pounding. I'm so sorry you have to do this. I'm just pulling as hard as I can that she's going to be a "good girl" and remember how important her husband is to her, and why her family is the best thing in her life. Why in the hell can't she see how badly this is affecting, not just you but her whole relationship with you, and just tell this clown to *buzz* *off?! * Is she so dense she doesn't understand how her marriage is teetering on the brink? I just don't understand this!


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Wife's texts while she was on the road.*



PhillyGuy13 said:


> Sigh. PI booked.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Starsky and Hutch?


----------



## Thundarr

The Middleman said:


> I must have missed your original response, I'm sorry.
> 
> If you can't do it yourself, a PI is the next best thing. Good luck.


Part of snooping is dealing with the "what if I'm wrong". But if you need to snoop to have piece of mind (which he does), and if you have a legitimate reason to snoop (which he does), and if you have the resources (which he must), then snoop professionally and hire a professional guy to do it.

Then hope to be validated as having a good girl.


----------



## sidney2718

weightlifter said:


> New boss is insane so less trip near Kurt.
> 
> Wow talk about a double edged sword.
> 
> Fortunately she has BIG gaps between trips. I would still do PI on the trip after this whenever that is. AND not do anything much more than keep your eyes open for red flags and do little else if this trip comes up empty.
> 
> meanwhile make her feel loved and desired. Massive amounts of wining dining and insemination required. HNHN will provide the formula that works for her.


Hey, don't forget the caressing, the gentle touching, the time spent kissing. Remember, this is a woman you are romancing.


----------



## sidney2718

The Middleman said:


> I must have missed your original response, I'm sorry.
> 
> If you can't do it yourself, a PI is the next best thing. Good luck.


He's got a PI lined up. If you have to skip postings, just remember to read all of the ones by the OP.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

The Middleman said:


> I must have missed your original response, I'm sorry.
> 
> If you can't do it yourself, a PI is the next best thing. Good luck.


No worries. Been a long week (work wise) but I shouldn't be so crabby. TGIF.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## alexm

I have to admit, I am usually completely against PI's and all that spy stuff, but in this case, I'm all for it. Given that it's 500 miles away, and all that.

But it does sound as though your wife has good intentions (or doesn't have bad ones, anyway), and that's a check mark in the positive column.

However, a PI isn't a bad idea, as even if she doesn't have bad intentions, this guy could be THAT smooth, and she could get THAT drunk. That's not to say your wife is easy, of course. This type of thing can happen to any and all of us if our guard isn't up. Especially that far away.

Just keep in mind that if the PI comes back with nothing, then it's probably best that you drop it entirely. Never stop keeping your eyes open, of course, but don't let every little thing get to you, as it would be so easy for that to happen.

BTW, I'd probably get a VAR, too (did I just say that???) in case the PI half-asses the job. It's a pretty shady profession, and there's nothing stopping him or her from taking your money, shooting a few pictures one night, and then telling you he tailed her for 12 hours a day and saw nothing.


----------



## Hicks

Philly,

I read and reread what you posed. A man came on to your wife. It was her boss. She did not do a good job of shutting him down. But she clearly from the set of texts was being heavily chased and not doing any chasing. Remember it's her boss. Why do you think there are sexual harassment laws? It's becuase of this dynamic. Becuase woman as worker needs to please her boss, so boss takes advantage of this fact. And that's exactly what happened here.

Your are taking a huge risk to your marriage by spying on her. She will get so mad at you that she may never forgive you. She certainly will never feel sexually safe with you if you she sees you as insecure or jealous.

There are a few scenarios on how this all plays out.
1. She doesn't cheat, she does not catch you spying. All Good.
2. She doesn't cheat, she catches you spying. You will have done damage to your marriage.
3. She cheats, you don't catch her ever.
4. She cheats, starts an affair, and starts acting funny / throwing off red flags.

Now, you cannot really control #3 or #4. But in the case of #4, you find out and it is not you but her who killed your marriage. So what is really the difference between finding out at the exact moment of cheating or 2 or 3 months later? Is gaining that 2-3 months worth the risk you are taking? I don't see how it could be. So you are protecting yourself mainly from #3. Now, I will tell you each and every married man or woman could have #3 happen to them. We all have this threat to our marriage. I look at that in 2 ways. First, it's like worrying about someone dying.... You can't let fears like this take over your happiness in life. Some things need to be left to a higher power. Second, if you create a good, happy and fun marriage and lovinig marriage, you greatly reduce the chances for #3 or #4.

To me, this is a risk reward scenario. You are risking that YOU may inflict harm on your marriage by treating your wife as a cheater. OK, people do that. But what is the REWARD? What do you gain by catching her at the exact moment she cheats? I just don't see anything you are gaining. What do you see as the gain? Your own pride? Love is not about protecting one's personal pride.

And, the negative, fearful and insecure thoughts are the exact things that will block you from creating the fun, happy, fulfiling and loving marriage that you need to create to prevent what you are most fearful of.

This woman your wife is not throwing off red flags left and right. She's not guarding her cell phone. She's not disappearing constantly. She's not angry for no reason. The advice you are getting is geared towards people throwing off red flags.


----------



## Philat

Hicks said:


> Philly,
> 
> I read and reread what you posed. A man came on to your wife. It was her boss. She did not do a good job of shutting him down. But she clearly from the set of texts was being heavily chased and not doing any chasing. Remember it's her boss. Why do you think there are sexual harassment laws? It's becuase of this dynamic. Becuase woman as worker needs to please her boss, so boss takes advantage of this fact. And that's exactly what happened here.
> 
> Your are taking a huge risk to your marriage by spying on her. She will get so mad at you that she may never forgive you. She certainly will never feel sexually safe with you if you she sees you as insecure or jealous.
> 
> There are a few scenarios on how this all plays out.
> 1. She doesn't cheat, she does not catch you spying. All Good.
> 2. She doesn't cheat, she catches you spying. You will have done damage to your marriage.
> 3. She cheats, you don't catch her ever.
> 4. She cheats, starts an affair, and starts acting funny / throwing off red flags.
> 
> Now, you cannot really control #3 or #4. But in the case of #4, you find out and it is not you but her who killed your marriage. So what is really the difference between finding out at the exact moment of cheating or 2 or 3 months later? Is gaining that 2-3 months worth the risk you are taking? I don't see how it could be. So you are protecting yourself mainly from #3. Now, I will tell you each and every married man or woman could have #3 happen to them. We all have this threat to our marriage. I look at that in 2 ways. First, it's like worrying about someone dying.... You can't let fears like this take over your happiness in life. Some things need to be left to a higher power. Second, if you create a good, happy and fun marriage and lovinig marriage, you greatly reduce the chances for #3 or #4.
> 
> To me, this is a risk reward scenario. You are risking that YOU may inflict harm on your marriage by treating your wife as a cheater. OK, people do that. But what is the REWARD? What do you gain by catching her at the exact moment she cheats? I just don't see anything you are gaining. What do you see as the gain? Your own pride? Love is not about protecting one's personal pride.
> 
> And, the negative, fearful and insecure thoughts are the exact things that will block you from creating the fun, happy, fulfiling and loving marriage that you need to create to prevent what you are most fearful of.
> 
> This woman your wife is not throwing off red flags left and right. She's not guarding her cell phone. She's not disappearing constantly. She's not angry for no reason. The advice you are getting is geared towards people throwing off red flags.


This would be great if Philly could just turn off the feelings of doubt and mistrust engendered by his W's failure to enforce boundaries with Kurt (who was no longer her boss when this occurred so your appeal to the employer/employee dynamic does not apply). He cannot, as most of us probably would not be able to. He is inclined to trust his W, but needs to verify for himself this once. I agree with alexm that if the PI turns up nothing on this trip then Philly should drop the active snooping.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Hi Hicks,

First off I want to say I really appreciate what you are saying. I've respected your posts on my thread and others from the get-go and you always give me a lot to think about - so thank you.

I mostly agree with you that there have been no red flags since finding the original texts but there were some immediately following. The issues I had/have was within the next few days, we would argue about her cutting off all contact. I got the "he's just a friend" speech and the "I can handle him if he tried anything" speech. Even after all this came out (on a Friday afternoon) she texted him the next Monday and Wednesday, work related gossip. She initiated these texts. This was after she knew how furious I was. (She also immediately disabled the texts in her ipad the day I confronted her, so they wouldn't ping from her phone to the ipad). Finally that day I put my foot down and demanded she cut off all contact, not see him, or else I was leaving. Which we then had an argument about trust and lack thereof. This was over two months ago now, Thanksgiving week, and the week I found this forum online.

I think she "gets it" now. I do not think she would do anything to put herself in jeopardy. But on the small chance there is something going on, I want to know. Her trips out there are few and far between, if there truly is something between them, they have few opportunities to get together, so they would need to take advantage of this meeting. For my peace of mind I need to know for sure.


----------



## turnera

What are you doing to make the marriage worth staying for?


----------



## PhillyGuy13

turnera said:


> What are you doing to make the marriage worth staying for?


My boyish good looks and charming personality should be plenty.


----------



## Chaparral

Good luck PG13, unfortunately you have been put in a position you did not ask for. I think and hope a PI will find what a good wife you have. The doubt though that could be raised is enough to settle this.

You are the leader/ protector of your family, your number one job. Hard choices have to be made by leaders. If at anytime your wife accuses you of going overboard, simply tell her its your job and you will do whatever is necessary no matter how much you may regret having to do that. Then tell her that she has to carry the weight of her actions also.

I think everything is going to be fine. My personal experience is that my wife appreciates a man looking out for her and our family, likes it a lot.

You have to do what you have to do Good Luck.


----------



## Thundarr

PhillyGuy13 said:


> I think she "gets it" now. I do not think she would do anything to put herself in jeopardy. But on the small chance there is something going on, I want to know. Her trips out there are few and far between, if there truly is something between them, they have few opportunities to get together, so they would need to take advantage of this meeting. For my peace of mind I need to know for sure.


It seems like she does. Thanks to you she wasn't able to minimize it too much. Something was clearly inappropriate and out of bounds and you called her on it. Part of protecting a marriage is having each other's back and that includes not letting her slip into something dangerous. Emotional attachments sneak up on the people sometimes. 

As for the PI, she earned some short term snooping. It will give you piece of mind until you trust her judgement and your judgement of her.


----------



## Hicks

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Hi Hicks,
> I mostly agree with you that there have been no red flags since finding the original texts but there were some immediately following. The issues I had/have was within the next few days, we would argue about her cutting off all contact. I got the "he's just a friend" speech and the "I can handle him if he tried anything" speech. Even after all this came out (on a Friday afternoon) she texted him the next Monday and Wednesday, work related gossip. She initiated these texts. This was after she knew how furious I was. (She also immediately disabled the texts in her ipad the day I confronted her, so they wouldn't ping from her phone to the ipad). Finally that day I put my foot down and demanded she cut off all contact, not see him, or else I was leaving. Which we then had an argument about trust and lack thereof. This was over two months ago now, Thanksgiving week, and the week I found this forum online.
> 
> .


Her actions you describe above are very consistent with a person who did not plan to cheat and had no intention to cheat.

Buckling to your demands would also be seen as her admitting you were correct.

She tried to assert herself. You then asserted yourself. You "won" the assertion battle. THAT'S GOOD. You were strong, unyielding and stood up for you values and beliefs. She acquiesed. You upped your sex rank in her eyes.

If she catches you spying, it erases all of that. You will look insecure, weak and unsexy.

Self manage your thoughts and insecurities. Keep them at bay. Hold yourself and your wife accountable to keeping a great marriage. Derive your security from knowing that you would never hesitate to pull the trigger on divorce if your wife was not meeting your needs and not participating fully in your marriage.

There's all sorts of people who wonder if their wife is cheating becuase she goes out at night, protects her phone, does GNO's, doesnt give their husband sex, treats him bad... IF she is doing these things she is already unworthy as a wife and the man should already be divorcing her... She's already cheating him out of a decent marriage... That's got to be your standard.


----------



## SF-FAN

turnera said:


> What are you doing to make the marriage worth staying for?


As long as he's being a good husband and (father?) and not taking her for granted she shouldn't have to go out of his way to compete with some other guy that's attempting to make a pass at his wife.


----------



## turnera

True, assuming he doesn't have any messiness on his side. We have no idea. And I'm not saying he does. Saying that ALL of us owe it to our spouses to take a look at ourselves now and then to ensure we're being what we promised to be when we got married. And in the case of cheating, even more important.


----------



## Csquare

PG13, your good looks and charm unfortunately are *not* enough to make this marriage worth staying for. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to make your wife feel like she is the most beautiful, sexy, desirable goddess mother on gods green earth. And that extra padding she has gained from recent pregnancy only makes you hungrier for her. (Read a few romance novels if you want to know what women want.)

Mach's theories on golden ratio, etc, notwithstanding, plenty of WW affair down, so to speak. The 2 I know left the BS for less attractive OM's. One left because her BS in 19 years never said, "I love you." I asked him how he could be fluent in 7 languages and never once said "I love you" to his wife. He said, "I couldn't *say* it but tried to *show* it by taking care of kids." You need to do both. You need to show *and* say. 

Another left because her BS would criticize her for not disciplining kids, but he never stepped in to fill parenting gaps. OM swooped in and told her "you are the most wonderful and beautiful mother..." Deal sealed. BS is now paying alimony to support BOTH WW and OM.

On her part, your W is not as naive as you believe wrt her sex appeal to OM. Any girl over puberty knows exactly what power she has over boys, and what she needs to get the pea**** to fan his feathers, so to speak. A little lingering eye contact. A shy hopeful smile. Honestly, that's all it takes. So subtle, men don't even realize we're doing it. Any more obvious and it's overkill. Her flirtatious texts are her way of casting and setting the hook. Now all she has to do is reel him in with his own eagerness. IOW, her actions are *not* innocent. 

Both you and W need to take action to protect your marriage. Good luck.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

turnera said:


> True, assuming he doesn't have any messiness on his side. We have no idea. And I'm not saying he does. Saying that ALL of us owe it to our spouses to take a look at ourselves now and then to ensure we're being what we promised to be when we got married. And in the case of cheating, even more important.


I've mentioned it on here at some point. We have/had a good marriage. Been married almost 7 years now, together for almost 10. I've never cheated. Neither one of us goes out at night. Very rarely with local work friends. I moved to this area, where she attended college. All of my friends are 3 hours back home, all of her friends have moved away from this area. Her family is also 2+ hours away. So really we just have each other, and don't really have social lives.

Our marriage isn't perfect. We have two young kids that take up 99.9% of our free time. We were definitely stuck in the doldrums. If there is a silver lining to this experience it is that we have both agreed to make more time for each other.

PS my boyish good looks and charming personality comment was meant tongue in cheek. Didn't mean to rile anyone up.


----------



## Philat

Stay the course, Philly. You seem to have a fair wind at your back.


----------



## turnera

PhillyGuy13 said:


> So really we just have each other, and don't really have social lives.
> 
> Our marriage isn't perfect. We have two young kids that take up 99.9% of our free time. We were definitely stuck in the doldrums. If there is a silver lining to this experience it is that we have both agreed to make more time for each other.
> 
> PS my boyish good looks and charming personality comment was meant tongue in cheek. Didn't mean to rile anyone up.


Excellent point. Spend 15 hours a week doing 'dating' type stuff. Volunteer together. Throw a block party and meet your neighbors. Join a club together. It's the glue that holds a marriage together.


----------



## Hicks

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Our marriage isn't perfect. We have two young kids that take up 99.9% of our free time. We were definitely stuck in the doldrums. If there is a silver lining to this experience it is that we have both agreed to make more time for each other.
> 
> .


This is where you need to spend your thoughts, your time, your focus, your emotion and your money.

No marriage will be affiar proof if it is in the doldroms and 99.9% about the kids. 

Wives will make it 99.9% about the kids becuase that's what mother's think they are supposed to do.

They need their man to force life to be prioritized: Marriage to each other leading to well raised and successful children... Jobs support the family and not the other way around.....This is where you need to be engaged.. Making your marriage more about fun and a Husband / Wife and less about doldrom's with kids.

What are her emtional needs, anyway? What is important to your wife as an individual? How do you make her life better every day becuase you are there? How do you make her feel?


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## Hicks

If you can't get a fun social network where you live, MOVE.

You see, all of these things that are supposedly preventing you from having the marriage and life you want are SELF CREATED OBSTACLES.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Hicks said:


> This woman your wife is not throwing off red flags left and right. She's not guarding her cell phone. She's not disappearing constantly. She's not angry for no reason. The advice you are getting is geared towards people throwing off red flags.


She knew she should delete the texts from post 1.

The conversation show clearly the phase people are in before they 'go to far'.

Not cutting it off right there and then leaves the door open for the next meetings.

So it already went to far. Huge red flag. The next time eating in, in her room??


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Hicks said:


> If you can't get a fun social network where you live, MOVE.
> 
> You see, all of these things that are supposedly preventing you from having the marriage and life you want are SELF CREATED OBSTACLES.


We've begun making friends with some of the kids' classmates' parents. Jury still out on some of them lol. I've always had a close circle of friends. Same 3-4 guys for the past 25 years- since HS, so it's difficult for me to make new friends. My wife is my best friend. We been doing a lot more both inside and outside the house lately. We are getting there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Hicks said:


> Her actions you describe above are very consistent with a person who did not plan to cheat and had no intention to cheat.
> 
> Buckling to your demands would also be seen as her admitting you were correct.
> 
> She tried to assert herself. You then asserted yourself. You "won" the assertion battle. THAT'S GOOD. You were strong, unyielding and stood up for you values and beliefs. She acquiesed. You upped your sex rank in her eyes.
> 
> *If she catches you spying, it erases all of that. You will look insecure, weak and unsexy.*
> 
> Self manage your thoughts and insecurities. Keep them at bay. Hold yourself and your wife accountable to keeping a great marriage. Derive your security from knowing that you would never hesitate to pull the trigger on divorce if your wife was not meeting your needs and not participating fully in your marriage.
> 
> There's all sorts of people who wonder if their wife is cheating becuase she goes out at night, protects her phone, does GNO's, doesnt give their husband sex, treats him bad... IF she is doing these things she is already unworthy as a wife and the man should already be divorcing her... She's already cheating him out of a decent marriage... That's got to be your standard.


I do not see the logic here. She had what amounts to a drunken date with another man, then planned more. Now she has to carry the weight of those "mistakes" forever.


----------



## thummper

Chaparral said:


> I do not see the logic here. She had what amounts to a drunken date with another man, then planned more. Now she has to carry the weight of those "mistakes" forever.


This is true, but as I've read Philly's account of the progress he and "Anna" have made in the intervening months, I think she's realized the mistakes she made and will avoid contact with Kurt as has been requested.....at least I sure as hell *hope* she does! Here's hoping for good news, Philly! :smthumbup:


----------



## martyc47

Here's how I see this situation:
Out of all the threads we get here, this seems like one of the more salvageable ones. It's one of the few with any hope for preventing an affair before one starts. Most of the threads of the "I think my wife's having an EA" or "my wife is texting another man" variety describe situations that are already full-blown physical affairs. In this case, it's reasonable to believe that it's probably "only" inappropriate behavior from an OM suitor that wasn't sufficiently shot down by the wife and some other uncomfortable behavior.

That said, even in this case, as "hopeful" as it may be, there are still plenty of red flags and troubling points that really make it necessary to still investigate and monitor suspicions.

There have been some recent comments that have conflicted with previous advice or attempted to divert the course. Frankly, while there may be some ostensibly useful points, a lot of the conflicting advice is based in a different reality and ignores what has actually happened here. Some of the suggestions would probably even backfire. This current situation is not going to be remedied by some beta supplication and encouragement (or whatever you want to label such behaviors).

Philly is headed in the right direction and needs to stay the course, IMHO.


----------



## thummper

God, I'm sitting on pins and needles over here as the time for her trip gets closer. I think my hands are developing permanent cramps from having my fingers crossed for you so hard.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Haha Thumper it sounds like you are more nervous than I am. I think we will be ok. Sometimes I feel ridiculous about the whole thing. But I am going to stay the course and see what plays out.

As an aside, her "Ladies Days" began yesterday. So that will continue throughout the week. She has never been interested in sex during this time. Whether that had bearing on a potential meet up who knows.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## weightlifter

Philly. Vent here bro, but you have a shot at a good outcome.

Ladys day= aunt flow?


----------



## PhillyGuy13

That's her!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## thummper

Haven't seen any updates, Philly. Can we all assume that no news is good news?


----------



## PhillyGuy13

She leaves tomorrow morning... Assuming the plane can take off. Big storm here throughout the day. It would be a shame if her flight got delayed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PhillyGuy13

She (and coworkers) were encouraged to fly out today instead of tomorrow- a day early- to avoid the storm. Which would have given her an extra 24 hours of free time out there. That made me tense up.

But she decided to stick with her original reservation. She said she didn't want to go out early. So that was a good sign too.

I went through her suitcase, nothing "sexy" packed. She's has also been sick past couple days flu like symptoms, and she has her period. So I would be SHOCKED if anything happened at this point. BUT, I don't want any dinner or drink rendezvous either, so will keep an eye out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thundarr

PhillyGuy13 said:


> I went through her suitcase, nothing "sexy" packed. She's has also been sick past couple days flu like symptoms, and she has her period. So I would be SHOCKED if anything happened at this point. BUT, I don't want any dinner or drink rendezvous either, so will keep an eye out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't you have have a PI pg. Stop going through her stuff and trust your PI.


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## PhillyGuy13

Yes. But he can't see what she packed. It's on my bed- why not peek?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thundarr

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Yes. But he can't see what she packed. It's on my bed- why not peek?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Because snooping isn't a way of life. It's a necessary evil on occasion but it's no way to live. You already have your bases covered with the PI. If all goes well then you can tone down the snooping.


----------



## SofaKingWeToddId

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Yes. But he can't see what she packed. It's on my bed- why not peek?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nothing wrong with checking out the suitcase. If it helps you to feel more at ease, go for it.


----------



## convert

^^ yes, I figure if the NSA can hold all cell phone records in the US and other countries. I can damn sure look in my wives suitcase


----------



## sandc

My wife goes through my suitcase before I go on trips. I don't care. I assume it's to make sure I didn't forget something. I double check her too. I know, different motives but still it shouldn't have to be a big deal.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Didn't find anything. There was some kind of lubricant and some underwear with a slit in the crotch. I'm sure that's all normal.

I did put a little love note buried in her suitcase, wishing her luck on her presentation.

Plane took off 90 minutes late due to storm. She probably won't make her connection, meaning she will arrive there several hours later.

Meanwhile I'm home snowed in with my 3 and 5 yo kids. Which is probably almost as stressful as the wife's trip. Is it Saturday yet??

PS Kidding about the lube and underwear. I know those would be huge red flags, thank you very much 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sandc

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Didn't find anything. There was some kind of lubricant and some underwear with a slit in the crotch. I'm sure that's all normal.
> 
> I did put a little love note buried in her suitcase, wishing her luck on her presentation.
> 
> Plane took off 90 minutes late due to storm. She probably won't make her connection, meaning she will arrive there several hours later.
> 
> Meanwhile I'm home snowed in with my 3 and 5 yo kids. Which is probably almost as stressful as the wife's trip. Is it Saturday yet??
> 
> PS Kidding about the lube and underwear. I know those would be huge red flags, thank you very much
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And yet the whip and handcuffs don't bother you one bit? (He asked with a straight face)


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Nope those were mine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## weightlifter

What about the butt plug and vibrating panties?


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Butt plug is hers. Vibrating panties are for the dog.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## weightlifter

What about the control ring for the panties? Who is the master?

Amazon.com: The Screaming O Master Ring and Panty Set: Health & Personal Care


----------



## sandc

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Nope those were mine.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You'll need them for the kids.


----------



## sandc

weightlifter said:


> What about the control ring for the panties? Who is the master?
> 
> Amazon.com: The Screaming O Master Ring and Panty Set: Health & Personal Care


Speaking of which how is RDMU doing these days? Was it RDMU? :scratchhead:


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Just read your review- a little too tight for you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 3putt

weightlifter said:


> What about the control ring for the panties? Who is the master?
> 
> Amazon.com: The Screaming O Master Ring and Panty Set: Health & Personal Care


Ah, memories. The search for the butt plug return receipt night.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Thundarr said:


> Because snooping isn't a way of life. It's a necessary evil on occasion but it's no way to live. You already have your bases covered with the PI. If all goes well then you can tone down the snooping.


I don't think he's planning on making this a way of life.

He has questions that need to be answered. If he asked his wife if she packed anything like a leather corset and some KY gel, we know what would happen.

He thinks that he caught the EA early enough. He now needs to KNOW he has. I don't blame him. I'd do the same thing.

If he's going through her bag for the next 10 trips, there's problem.

PhillyGuy13, we all hope that what you found so far, is it. Just try not to think about it too much while she's gone.

You may want to give the PI his own ring tone on your cell phone. So you don't get all worried every time you get a call from someone else..


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

sandc said:


> Speaking of which how is RDMU doing these days? Was it RDMU? :scratchhead:


Don't bother asking what REALLY happened with this one. Only a few, close, TAMers got that information and they ain't talkin'.

I felt bad for this guy. He was going to D his WS and make her earn her place back, then...

I'd bet $1000 that she will cheat on him again. I believe that he still goes on the road all the time. I'm pretty sure that she still wants to be treated like a fvck doll.

It's a ticking time-bomb


----------



## PhillyGuy13

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> PhillyGuy13, we all hope that what you found so far, is it. Just try not to think about it too much while she's gone.
> 
> You may want to give the PI his own ring tone on your cell phone. So you don't get all worried every time you get a call from someone else..


In my mind he is Sam Slade, and he constantly narrates what my wife does, speaking only in cliches.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## weightlifter

Disagree with ya GPound. Respectfully of course. I think you rock but are a bit sanguine on this one.

Ill put the odds at 40%. She clearly has boundary issues and I still think the NEXT trip is the BIG test.

Philly for the record odds below 33% are below the average of cheating wives so it would be very rare for me to rate anyone below 33%. He has a shot. I really think so.

He is on top of it.

Yes really. Roughly 1/3 of wives have sexual relations with another man. Same with men.


----------



## Chaparral

Good luck PG13, The Mouse Trap game with the five year old, the three year old can break it.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

All's quiet on the Midwestern front. Wife made it several hours late, and the airline lost her bag. Despite a three hour layover it didn't make it on her connection. Anyway her and female friend are enjoying dinner at hotel restaurant. 

Meanwhile we played every game In the house. Little monsters cheat. Just put them to bed and came in from shoveling. Is it spring yet? I could use a drink, but don't drink when I'm alone with the kids. So I'll just get ahead on some work projects.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Machiavelli

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> Don't bother asking what REALLY happened with this one. Only a few, close, TAMers got that information and they ain't talkin'.... I'm pretty sure that she still wants to be treated like a fvck doll.
> 
> It's a ticking time-bomb


That was a very strange one. I always thought that one was bogus because of the Master Ring commercial at the beginning.

I agree about the likely final ending. Choo, Choo, Choo, Choo.


----------



## thummper

I'm sitting here at the computer cringing at the news that may be coming in. I just can't help but believe that she'll not want to do anything to jeopardize her marriage....at least, that's what I fervently hope.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Machiavelli said:


> That was a very strange one. I always thought that one was bogus because of the Master Ring commercial at the beginning.
> 
> I agree about the likely final ending. Choo, Choo, Choo, Choo.


RDMU had some long time TAMers cleaning up VAR files, etc., so unfortunately I think it was real.

The way his WS hid her no holes bared sexcapades from him for over 2 years. The fact that his 1st wife cheated and his current wife knew, BUT cheated(in a BIG way) anyway. The way he went from "90% sure he's D" and days later was deep into R(and denial as far as I'm concerned).

It's not a matter of if, but when, she does it again. It won't be with the same OM, time after time either. More the way of hit and runs. With guys that are short time aquantiences, that her husband hasn't, or will never meet.


----------



## tom67

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> Don't bother asking what REALLY happened with this one. Only a few, close, TAMers got that information and they ain't talkin'.
> 
> I felt bad for this guy. He was going to D his WS and make her earn her place back, then...
> 
> I'd bet $1000 that she will cheat on him again. I believe that he still goes on the road all the time. I'm pretty sure that she still wants to be treated like a fvck doll.
> 
> It's a ticking time-bomb


:iagree:
I encouraged to find another job.
Oh well.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> RDMU had some long time TAMers cleaning up VAR files, etc., so unfortunately I think it was real.
> 
> The way his WS hid her no holes bared sexcapades from him for over 2 years. The fact that his 1st wife cheated and his current wife knew, BUT cheated(in a BIG way) anyway. The way he went from "90% sure he's D" and days later was deep into R(and denial as far as I'm concerned).
> 
> It's not a matter of if, but when, she does it again. It won't be with the same OM, time after time either. More the way of hit and runs. With guys that are short time aquantiences, that her husband hasn't, or will never meet.


'no holes bared' would have saved RDMU from problems....


----------



## Machiavelli

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> RDMU had some long time TAMers cleaning up VAR files, etc., so unfortunately I think it was real.... It won't be with the same OM, time after time either. More the way of hit and runs. With guys that are short time aquantiences, that her husband hasn't, or will never meet.


Yeah, that's right. I was convinced after the VAR stuff came out, but before that the commercial made it suspicious.


----------



## convert

could you guys direct me to the thread you are talking about (RDMU)?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> RDMU had some long time TAMers cleaning up VAR files, etc., so unfortunately I think it was real.


Weightlifter spent a year crowing about his work on that situation. I believe it was real as well.


----------



## Tobyboy

PG13....Remember, odds are that the OM will contact your W at some point during her trip. As far as he knows, your W is still free game. This is a consequence for a NC letter/email not being sent. I would really be suspicious if your W came back saying the OM never called or made an appearance. That would raise some redflags for sure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## workindad

Toyboy makes a good point. I would be surprised if he made no attempt at contact.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PhillyGuy13

NC letter would have guaranteed he would make an appearance. He's got other friends in that work circle, and they are all in town. NC letter would have made him seek her out, to talk to her.

Trip is half over. No appearances yet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

PhillyGuy13 said:


> NC letter would have guaranteed he would make an appearance. He's got other friends in that work circle, and they are all in town. NC letter would have made him seek her out, to talk to her.
> 
> Trip is half over. No appearances yet.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


When she gets back you will know with her demeanor whether or not something happened. Trust that gut feeling.
Play it cool if you have any suspicions and observe.
hopefully she gets it and I'm wasting your time blabbing.


----------



## ThePheonix

PhillyGuy13 said:


> NC letter would have made him seek her out, to talk to her.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 A NC Letter should be renamed, NC, If you know what I mean, Letter.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

She says she didn't leave hotel bar/restaurant, hung out with other female coworkers. She went upstairs at 10:30. I spoke to her personally for a while thereafter. Her bag arrived at 12:30 am. She texted me and went to get it, went back to her room. She was 100% truthful I confirmed that this morning.

Cell phone records also clear. 

One night down, one to go.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Clay2013

My hats off to you PG. I can not do that. Its something I could not handle with my xW. I am not good at all with allowing my mind to go crazy thinking. I'm a all or nothing kind of guy. Its either she shows 1000% towards me or she is gone. I booted mine out over a phone call to the other man. I did not find the love letter until we were in the middle of fighting the day I was booting her out. It just added fuel the the fire. 

Your clearly a better man than me. I hope it goes well for you and you both get passed this. 

Clay


----------



## weightlifter

Grats bro!


----------



## Tobyboy

PhillyGuy13 said:


> NC letter would have guaranteed he would make an appearance. He's got other friends in that work circle, and they are all in town. NC letter would have made him seek her out, to talk to her.
> 
> Trip is half over. No appearances yet.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Perhaps. But then your W would shoot him down immeadialty!!!
At the present...he's clueless!! He thinks he can score with your W because she participated and even worse planned to meet up again. What I m worried for you is that you'll get the "I didn't want to be rude and that's why I tolerated his presence" excuse. 
I don't know, maybe she told him not to show up cause she's being watch.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Clay I'm not better. Everyone reacts differently. If I had found something more over the past few months one of us wouldn't be in this house at this point. While I was and is angry (am angry?) Kurt was the aggressor. My wife just did a p!ss poor job of deflecting, or was so naive she didn't understand what was going on. Either way, it was unacceptable. I think she realizes that now. Let's see what tonight brings and then I can exhale.

Ok back to my puking 5 yo. Winter from hell continues...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Tobyboy said:


> Perhaps. But then your W would shoot him down immeadialty!!!
> At the present...he's clueless!! He thinks he can score with your W because she participated and even worse planned to meet up again. What I m worried for you is that you'll get the "I didn't want to be rude and that's why I tolerated his presence" excuse.
> I don't know, maybe she told him not to show up cause she's being watch.


How would she know that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dyokemm

"How would she know that?"

You have already confronted her and voiced your concerns/suspicions.

She knows you are on high alert with this being her first trip back to Cleveland.

She doesn't have to be a genius to suspect that this trip you will be watching her like a hawk, and it may have occurred to her that you might have a PI or friend in the area she doesn't know show up to observe what she's doing.

If there is interest on her part, she could have tipped him off to lay low this trip until your paranoia about the trips goes down.

Somebody already said it, but I think they are right.

Its the NEXT trip that will be the most revealing about this situation.


----------



## Tobyboy

PhillyGuy13 said:


> How would she know that?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't know...paranoia? 
Sorry PG, sometimes I overthink things. I really hope things go smoothly for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## weightlifter

He knows this next trip the biggie.

And I believe he said he knows that is the big test and is going to play dumb husband. 

He should still be wining and dining her AND fvcking her as much as she will take.


----------



## Thundarr

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Clay I'm not better. Everyone reacts differently. If I had found something more over the past few months one of us wouldn't be in this house at this point. While I was and is angry (am angry?) Kurt was the aggressor. My wife just did a p!ss poor job of deflecting, or was so naive she didn't understand what was going on. Either way, it was unacceptable. I think she realizes that now. Let's see what tonight brings and then I can exhale.
> 
> Ok back to my puking 5 yo. Winter from hell continues...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You defended your marriage and that's the respectable thing to do. You didn't rug sweep or hide; you didn't ignore it; you didn't her minimize that it was inappropriate and not acceptable.

She probably feels more lucky to be married to you now than she did before. Sometimes the flattery of being pursued sneaks up on people. Hopefully she's learned now that her marriage is worth protected as well and that she's vulnerable just like most people can be.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Dyokemm said:


> "Somebody already said it, but I think they are right.
> 
> Its the NEXT trip that will be the most revealing about this situation.


I realize that and have agreed with that. She won't be back for 6-8 months at least, so that is a long time to wait if she truly wants to be with the guy. Bases will be covered at that point, rest assured, but I think she wouldn't have thought she was being watched and that's the reason why she is behaving.

But there is no record of a PI on my end, I think I was getting at.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PhillyGuy13

weightlifter said:


> He knows this next trip the biggie.
> 
> And I believe he said he knows that is the big test and is going to play dumb husband.


Hey nobody can play dumb husband like I can.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Hey nobody can play dumb husband like I can.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:rofl:
Like from caddie shack...
"Don't sell yourself short judge you are a terrific slouch."


----------



## illwill

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Clay I'm not better. Everyone reacts differently. If I had found something more over the past few months one of us wouldn't be in this house at this point. While I was and is angry (am angry?) Kurt was the aggressor. My wife just did a p!ss poor job of deflecting, or was so naive she didn't understand what was going on. Either way, it was unacceptable. I think she realizes that now. Let's see what tonight brings and then I can exhale.
> 
> Ok back to my puking 5 yo. Winter from hell continues...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do not ever minimize what she did or did not do. She was not naive.

Sounds like you got in front of this. Thats great. But, waiting to exhale is no way to live.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

It's also a terrible movie.

Agreed on the naivety. Bad deflecting, or maybe the slightest bit flattered/curious. Whatever the reason- unacceptable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vi_bride04

Love your humor, PG13


----------



## illwill

PhillyGuy13 said:


> It's also a terrible movie.
> 
> Agreed on the naivety. Bad deflecting, or maybe the slightest bit flattered/curious. Whatever the reason- unacceptable.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Any movie with a Wesley Snipes cameo cannot be all bad.


----------



## tom67

illwill said:


> Any movie with a Wesley Snipes cameo cannot be all bad.


Here is a good movie
pretend you are Mel doing this to pos

Payback (1999) - IMDb


----------



## weightlifter

Dirty Work (1998) - IMDb

Little known and very funny. IF you are male.


----------



## illwill

Ever seen Oldboy from Korea (not the remake)?That movie is how you plot revenge on a POSOM.


----------



## bfree

PG13, I don't know how you're holding up. I'M a nervous wreck.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Doing good. She's out with a couple of female coworkers at the hotel lounge. It's quiet and empty, I'm told. She wants to be home. Has a presentation in the morning. Has a sick kid here at home and just found out tonight her brother is in hospital with pneumonia. She's pretty upset. I'm just sorry she's away. Been a long week.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## RyanBingham

illwill said:


> Ever seen Oldboy from Korea (not the remake)?That movie is how you plot revenge on a POSOM.


Agreed this is a great movie. Koreans make some pretty damn good revenge films.


----------



## weightlifter

Sounds like the first small hurdle is almost cleared. She comes home tomorrow night right? 

At least you got time before the big hurdle in August-ish. Use the time to love her. She fvcked up, but I think, if she ticks the other boxes, you will R fine with her.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

I'm relieved that the PI didn't see anything bad.

It'd be nice to see a happy ending for a change.


----------



## weightlifter

NEXT trip after 6 months is the big test. When she thinks he is clueless after playing captain clueless for six months and she thinks he is no longer watching.

Still. For this place. His chances look above average.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Just spoke with Hall and Oates. All clear. What he saw matches what she said. Cell phone records also show no unaccounted for calls. Meeting over at noon, flight home early afternoon.

Big relief. I will be vigilant until and during the next trip whenever that may be. But it's nice to put this trip behind me. I have several months to "up my sex rank" as some of you on here put it. As if it could possibly go any higher . Going to make this week special for her.

I know some of you didn't necessarily agree with me watching her and I respect those opinions. Id be lying if I said I didn't feel a bit of guilt right now. But the alternative was sleepless nights wondering if/what happened.

Most of you were really helpful with advice, or as a sounding board. Some of you are a little off too . But thanks to everyone for their support. I'm sure I will still be hanging out from time to time, and if anything comes up I will post.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sandc

Don't feel guilty. You didn't check up on her until she gave you reason to. When she no longer gives you reason to check up on her (after the next trip), you can stop and relax a little. 

I'm happy to read that her actions match her words. Sounds like you have a good handle on this.


----------



## weightlifter

A virtual cheer:
To one that at least for now, ended far better than average.


----------



## Philat

Well done, Philly. And Mrs. Philly, for that matter.


----------



## thummper

I'm so happy this has worked out. :smthumbup: I've become very fond of you two, and I hope that things between you and your wife stay this happy. I think she'd be nuts to throw over someone as obviously in love with her as you for some cheap thrills with a POS like Kurt. And I think she realizes that and will do everything to make you happy.  Keep loving and cherishing her.


----------



## bfree

Thank God. I was becoming a nervous wreck. Now I can relax. Geesh, I have issues huh?


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

I love it when a plan comes together!

Better to feel a little guilty about the PI, because nothing bad happened, then all those sleepless nights and the wondering, the endless wondering if you hadn't... You did nothing wrong.

I'm happy for you. This turned out to be a very good day.


----------



## Machiavelli

PhillyGuy13 said:


> I know some of you didn't necessarily agree with me watching her and I respect those opinions. Id be lying if I said I didn't feel a bit of guilt right now. But the alternative was sleepless nights wondering if/what happened.


A man who doesn't do what is necessary to protect his family, doesn't value his family.


----------



## thummper

How about next time, Philly. Any plans to shadow Anna while she's in Cleveland? I'm somewhat surprised that Kurt didn't show up this time. Didn't he contact her at work and ask something about this trip? I don't trust that putz.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

thummper said:


> How about next time, Philly. Any plans to shadow Anna while she's in Cleveland? I'm somewhat surprised that Kurt didn't show up this time. Didn't he contact her at work and ask something about this trip? I don't trust that putz.


No idea when the next trip would be, and there was hinting that the next time the large group got together it would be somewhere other than Cleveland. Which would be nice on many levels. No offense to the city. Next time on Cleveland though she will be watched, or of it works out I will try to join her. She's coming with me on a work trip in a few months, granted the location is much more tropical. We will see what happens between now and then. Could be many months.

Kurt didn't reach out to my wife, but, she told me last night he did reach out to another coworker. He called this other female coworker, asked where they would be and if he could meet them out. The coworker told him "Why would you want to see everyone, you were fired wouldn't it be awkward?"

So he never showed. Loved what the coworker did, even though she didn't realize how great it truly was. But again, just proves he was willing to go fishing, and would be willing next time too.

EDIT: Still half asleep, but to answer, I guess when he called two weeks ago he didn't ask details of the trip, and clearly my wife didn't offer any, as again he had to call this other woman for details. I wonder why he didn't try to check with my wife this week. 

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tobyboy

PhillyGuy13 said:


> EDIT: Still half asleep, but to answer, I guess when he called two weeks ago he didn't ask details of the trip, and clearly my wife didn't offer any, as again he had to call this other woman for details. I wonder why he didn't try to check with my wife this week. _Posted via Mobile Device_





Tobyboy said:


> PG13....Remember, odds are that the OM will contact your W at some point during her trip. As far as he knows, your W is still free game. This is a consequence for a NC letter/email not being sent. I would really be suspicious if your W came back saying the OM never called or made an appearance. That would raise some redflags for sure.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Exactly!!! Why is that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Tobyboy said:


> Exactly!!! Why is that?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Dunno. But I do know he didn't call, text, email, or make an appearance. At least he didn't call the wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tobyboy

Your W coworker response to Kurt, although good, was kinda harsh at the same time! Is she a good friend of your W?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Not really. She has other coworkers she texts, FB. But not this one. They hang out at work events, but aren't besties, if that makes sense.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tobyboy

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Not really. She has other coworkers she texts, FB. But not this one. They hang out at work events, but aren't besties, if that makes sense.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Remember when I said I sometimes overthink things...here it comes!!

Is the coworker married?
Kurt apparently has her phone number. 
Wonder how many were present when Kurt called?
Just coworker and your Wife?
Does your wife have superhearing capabilities? 
Was the coworker present on the November work trip?

Something is just not adding up?


----------



## Philat

Tobyboy said:


> Remember when I said I sometimes overthink things...here it comes!!
> 
> Is the coworker married?
> Kurt apparently has her phone number.
> Wonder how many were present when Kurt called?
> Just coworker and your Wife?
> Does your wife have superhearing capabilities?
> Was the coworker present on the November work trip?
> 
> Something is just not adding up?


Kurt was probably working down the list until he hit paydirt.

ETA: Sounds kinda pathetic, actually.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Tobyboy said:


> Remember when I said I sometimes overthink things...here it comes!!
> 
> Is the coworker married?
> Kurt apparently has her phone number.
> Wonder how many were present when Kurt called?
> Just coworker and your Wife?
> Does your wife have superhearing capabilities?
> Was the coworker present on the November work trip?
> 
> Something is just not adding up?


No, I don't think my wife was present when he called her. She relayed the convo to her later, was the impression I got. My wife joined the girls later as she has flight and luggage problems. Don't know if the coworker is married or single. Yes coworker was present at earlier meetings. Same exact job as my wife, different part of the country.

EDIT: yes he would have had all of their phone numbers, he was their supervisor until November.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Why did he get fired?


----------



## thummper

Yeah, that might be nice to know. Did he get caught puttin' the move on a lady that he shouldn't have....like the bosses wife? I think this c0ckhound goes after any woman he thinks is vulnerable. I'm sure when Anna didn't slap him down for his disgusting behavior, he got the idea that she might be willing to do more than just have dinner in her room. What an outrageous suggestion to make to another man's wife! A-hole!


----------



## Tobyboy

PG13, Do you think that your W told Kurt that they were busted and to back off on the calls and texts?


----------



## kenmoore14217

Remember when I said I sometimes overthink things...here it comes!!

Is the coworker married?
Kurt apparently has her phone number. 
Wonder how many were present when Kurt called?
Just coworker and your Wife?
Does your wife have superhearing capabilities? 
Was the coworker present on the November work trip?

Something is just not adding up?

:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Chaparral said:


> Why did he get fired?


Honestly? We don't really know. My wife and her group were told officially they were combining and eliminating positions, so his job was eliminated. 

He told my wife back in November before the November trip that his manager said the line of business wasn't meeting it's revenue goals, so they were getting rid of him. Which I found odd, since he had only been on the job barely a year, and to fire someone so quick before they get their feet wet like that is odd, especially for this company. (I also worked there for several years. Very conservative company). Now maybe they were combining job functions, and the low numbers was the tiebreaker on who they kept.

I don't think he was fired for any harassment related reasons.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tobyboy

Anna: I have to delete this conversation. 
Kurt: I have heard that before. Usually it is from "boss" but glad it's u now
Anna: 12:05 am lol. Hope you are around when I am back here.


Who do you think is "boss"?


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Tobyboy said:


> PG13, Do you think that your W told Kurt that they were busted and to back off on the calls and texts?


I don't. She is too non confrontational. And I had no evidence anything happened before the November trip, so there was nothing they were busted over. It was one night -- one half hour -- of inappropriate texts. I had their text call and email history for a year, all of it in the open. The iPad would have been disabled long before the November encounter if anything had happened before the November trip.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Tobyboy said:


> Anna: I have to delete this conversation.
> Kurt: I have heard that before. Usually it is from "boss" but glad it's u now
> Anna: 12:05 am lol. Hope you are around when I am back here.
> 
> 
> Who do you think is "boss"?


The bosses name was given- it was his boss. I substituted "boss" and redacted the real name. Did the same thing for his girlfriend in the car. Real name was given.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PhillyGuy13

What's not adding up? At this point I am confident nothing physical happened before or since the texts in November. I am confident there was no contact at the meeting. We can speculate and come up with scenarios everywhere, sure. But at this point I am satisfied she has been and is faithful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tobyboy

PhillyGuy13 said:


> What's not adding up? At this point I am confident nothing physical happened before or since the texts in November. I am confident there was no contact at the meeting. We can speculate and come up with scenarios everywhere, sure. But at this point I am satisfied she has been and is faithful.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree, I don't think anything physical happened. It's just weird that contact seemed to have ceased right after you confronted. I mean, they were good friends and all...right?


----------



## weightlifter

PG. Other than never discounting a red flag out of hand. I think you are doing well. Keep the plan in place for next Cleveland trip.

In the mean time... Keep the current path.

She liked the attention. This is player 101. He was working his way thru the steps. He had just completed step 1...

You caught it.

There was a sniper rifle aimed right at your heart and your ego. You found the plot before it happened.

Bro, YOU DODGED A BULLET!

While I know you hurt for her indiscretion... Read some other threads bro. Read Brokenshadow in Private section. Read Cantthinkstraight... You saved yourself from that! 

BTW how did you find TAM?

Toby. She was being played straight up player 101. 
Next step was drunk woman in hotel room "For pizza"... An accidental kiss...


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Tobyboy said:


> I agree, I don't think anything physical happened. It's just weird that contact seemed to have ceased right after you confronted. I mean, they were good friends and all...right?


Good friends is a stretch. They hung out yes. She usually initiated the get togethers. Like in November hey I'm still around tonight want to grab dinner? But she is now complying with not contacting him. He may have been expecting her to call him, and he never did, so then checked in with the coworker this week.

Part of me thinks, in his mind, she is sometimes out of sight out of mind, and he may very well have a list of women he calls. 

I've always found him an odd guy, even before the November incident. He is 41, divorced with kid, balding, not great shape. He has girlfriend in late 20s, blonde. Very HOT. No offense to my wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## thummper

These "players" are such slimeballs! No woman is safe in their presence, and I'm, unfortunately, including people like JFK.


----------



## thummper

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Good friends is a stretch. They hung out yes. She usually initiated the get togethers. Like in November hey I'm still around tonight want to grab dinner? But she is now complying with not contacting him. He may have been expecting her to call him, and he never did, so then checked in with the coworker this week.
> 
> Part of me thinks, in his mind, she is sometimes out of sight out of mind, and he may very well have a list of women he calls.
> 
> I've always found him an odd guy, even before the November incident. *He is 41, divorced with kid, balding, not great shape. He has girlfriend in late 20s, blonde. Very HOT. No offense to my wife.*_Posted via Mobile Device_


Sounds like a real "catch" doesn't he?  And I'd be willing to bet that your lady is every bit as "hot" as his girlfriend, you lucky guy! :smthumbup:


----------



## PhillyGuy13

BTW how did you find TAM?

Lol it was boredom mixed with anxiety to be honest. I found this website about two weeks after the incident in mid November. Immediately after the texts I found, I did some rug sweeping, we did hyper bonding, but still I wasn't getting answers I was looking for, including the reluctance to cut him off initially.

We were up at her parents thanksgiving weekend, she kids and MIL went out shopping, I was back bored, tired from weeks of sleepless nights, went online , started searching found TAM. Started posting. It was actually kind of cathartic to get the story in writing and sharing. That in and of itself helps.

There was another site I found that I can't remember but didn't post. It was managed by two psychologists, who were married, and I believe one of them had an affair at one point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PhillyGuy13

thummper said:


> Sounds like a real "catch" doesn't he?  And I'd be willing to bet that your lady is every bit as "hot" as his girlfriend, you lucky guy! :smthumbup:


My wife is the perfect woman inside and out. And I love her to death.

But this chick was hot lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nucking Futs

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Good friends is a stretch. They hung out yes. She usually initiated the get togethers. Like in November hey I'm still around tonight want to grab dinner? But she is now complying with not contacting him. He may have been expecting her to call him, and he never did, so then checked in with the coworker this week.
> 
> Part of me thinks, in his mind, she is sometimes out of sight out of mind, and he may very well have a list of women he calls.
> 
> I've always found him an odd guy, even before the November incident. *He is 41, divorced with kid, balding, not great shape. He has girlfriend in late 20s, blonde. Very HOT.* No offense to my wife.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Clearly he has game, and it looks like he was turning it on your wife. And she was responding to it.

So far you've done very well on this and you're plan seems excellent. It's a nice change from the typical thread in here that is a bunch of us giving advice and the OP doing the exact opposite until it's too late.

I do have one suggestion. Google "how to pick up a married woman," find a good site with a step by step and have your wife read it. I would point out to her that knowing how a player may try to play her so she can watch out for it is no different than knowing what kind of snakes to avoid in the woods, what to do when a bear charges you, what kind of shrubbery you need if you run into a knight in the woods, what leaves you don't want to use to wipe after taking care of business in the woods (or your neighbors yard,) etc.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Nucking Futs said:


> Clearly he has game, and it looks like he was turning it on your wife. And she was responding to it.
> 
> So far you've done very well on this and you're plan seems excellent. It's a nice change from the typical thread in here that is a bunch of us giving advice and the OP doing the exact opposite until it's too late.
> 
> I do have one suggestion. Google "how to pick up a married woman," find a good site with a step by step and have your wife read it. I would point out to her that knowing how a player may try to play her so she can watch out for it is no different than knowing what kind of snakes to avoid in the woods, what to do when a bear charges you, what kind of shrubbery you need if you run into a knight in the woods, what leaves you don't want to use to wipe after taking care of business in the woods (or your neighbors yard,) etc.


Lol sounds like someone has anxieties about being lost in the woods.

That's a good idea. I may do that. I originally had thoughts about sharing this thread with her, so she could see it wasn't just my OCD that made me distrustful. But my discussing VARs and PIs on here squashed those thoughts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nucking Futs

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Lol sounds like someone has anxieties about being lost in the woods.
> 
> That's a good idea. I may do that. I originally had thoughts about sharing this thread with her, so she could see it wasn't just my OCD that made me distrustful. But my discussing VARs and PIs on here squashed those thoughts.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I spend a lot of time in the woods. I always make sure I'm carrying an appropriate shrubbery for the knights and a 90mm recoilless rifle for the bears when I'm out there alone. If I'm with others I leave the rifle behind if at least one of the others is slower than me. It's kind of a pain in the neck to hump along those trails.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

You don't need to outrun the bear, you just need to outrun your friend 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tobyboy

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Good friends is a stretch. They hung out yes. She usually initiated the get togethers. Like in November hey I'm still around tonight want to grab dinner? But she is now complying with not contacting him. He may have been expecting her to call him, and he never did, so then checked in with the coworker this week.
> 
> Part of me thinks, in his mind, she is sometimes out of sight out of mind, and he may very well have a list of women he calls.
> 
> I've always found him an odd guy, even before the November incident. He is 41, divorced with kid, balding, not great shape. He has girlfriend in late 20s, blonde. Very HOT. No offense to my wife.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Interesting!! How would you categorize your wife's self esteem?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PhillyGuy13

I think it's fine she doesn't have a problem in that department. And She gets plenty of validation from me in all departments.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## thummper

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Lol sounds like someone has anxieties about being lost in the woods.
> 
> That's a good idea. I may do that. I originally had thoughts about sharing this thread with her, so she could see it wasn't just my OCD that made me distrustful. But *my discussing VARs and PIs on here squashed those thoughts.*_Posted via Mobile Device_


Ummmmmmm, yeah. VERY bad idea.


----------



## lenzi

You said she worked for her manager for 2-3 yrs.

Look, it's right here:



PhillyGuy13 said:


> I'm 40, wife "Anna" is 33. Together 9 years, married for 6. Two kids, ages 5 and 3. I travel frequently for work, my wife occasionally. She works for national bank. We live in upstate NY. She is a great mom and wife, really wholesome so I never thought I'd be in this situation.
> 
> Her manager "Kurt" is 41, based in Cleveland.* She has worked for him for 2-3 years.* She has to go out there a few times per year, he comes out our way a few times a year.


But here you say he's only worked for the company for 1 year:



PhillyGuy13 said:


> He told my wife back in November before the November trip that his manager said the line of business wasn't meeting it's revenue goals, so they were getting rid of him. Which I found odd, since* he had only been on the job barely a year*


So which is it?

Barely 1 year or 2 to 3 years?

Or neither?

*EDITED TO ADD*

The Op explained the discrepancy in another post.

All is well


----------



## larry.gray

PhillyGuy13 said:


> He called this other female coworker, asked where they would be and if he could meet them out. The coworker told him "Why would you want to see everyone, you were fired wouldn't it be awkward?"


:rofl:

I didn't catch that he'd been fired. Yes, a bit harsh. What I've found is that when people are fired there are usually several people who are really glad they are gone. When you've been fired, you pretty much just need to tuck tail and leave your former coworkers alone.


----------



## workindad

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Honestly? We don't really know. My wife and her group were told officially they were combining and eliminating positions, so his job was eliminated.
> 
> He told my wife back in November before the November trip that his manager said the line of business wasn't meeting it's revenue goals, so they were getting rid of him. Which I found odd, since he had only been on the job barely a year, and to fire someone so quick before they get their feet wet like that is odd, especially for this company. (I also worked there for several years. Very conservative company). Now maybe they were combining job functions, and the low numbers was the tiebreaker on who they kept.
> 
> I don't think he was fired for any harassment related reasons.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




He may not have been fired for harassment. Where I work, the first year is a probationary period. If things are not a good fit- for whatever reason- you can terminate very easily within the first year. After that, it gets much harder.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

lenzi said:


> You said she worked for her manager for 2-3 yrs.
> 
> Look, it's right here:
> 
> 
> 
> But here you say he's only worked for the company for 1 year:
> 
> 
> 
> So which is it?
> 
> Barely 1 year or 2 to 3 years?
> 
> Or neither?


Uh oh the TAM police are here. Don't shut me down like our 420 friends Lenzi 

Back in November I thought he was her manager for longer than it actually was. Felt like a couple of years. About a month ago I managed to get on his LinkedIn page. He was in the position for 13 months, if his page is accurate. So sorry for the indescrepancy. Please don't get me banned 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## workindad

larry.gray said:


> :rofl:
> 
> I didn't catch that he'd been fired. Yes, a bit harsh. What I've found is that when people are fired there are usually several people who are really glad they are gone. When you've been fired, you pretty much just need to tuck tail and leave your former coworkers alone.


Agreed. Especially if he worked with them fr such a short time. It's not like they were all together on the job for 20 years.

He's fishing for some action.

The part of your story that concerns me is that your wife doesn't seem to get that or want to admit it.

She may have walked the line this trip because the opportunity did not present. It would be better if she fully understands and accepts ownership for her actions...


----------



## Thound

Nucking Futs said:


> I spend a lot of time in the woods. I always make sure I'm carrying an appropriate shrubbery for the knights and a 90mm recoilless rifle for the bears when I'm out there alone. If I'm with others I leave the rifle behind if at least one of the others is slower than me. It's kind of a pain in the neck to hump along those trails.


Umm. If I'm not mistaking you now need a herring.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Thound said:


> Umm. If I'm not mistaking you now need a herring.


Basic equipment for anyone that spends time in the woods. Can't have a fire without it.

Is this a thread jack yet? :lol:


----------



## PhillyGuy13

If anyone would like an email that I sent to myself back in November with screenshots of the text conversation let me know. I'm not trying to be deceitful, and again I apologize for the mistake as far as how long I thought he worked with my wife. Send me a PM and I'll give you my email. Don't think I can posts the pics in a PM but let me know.

Thanks again for the helpful support over the past couple of months. It was great having a resource to turn to, and talk things out.


----------



## weightlifter

Look. I have been providing logistical info for Philly going back to near the beginning. I will soon have an Fb link. I will verify such when I get it.

IMHO he is quite real and I should shortly have proof in the form of an Fb link preceding his time here.

I know also who Kurt is. I've actually been in Kurt's neighborhood in the distant past tho never met Kurt but driven by the house he owns about 6 times over a decade ago.


----------



## Tobyboy

Your cool PH13...keep posting!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## weightlifter

Okay connection made on FB. I asked him to make an innocuous looking post of one of three topics to prove he is him.

1) He made the post.
2) Said facebook goes way back LONG before TAM.
3) He did well for himself on the aesthetic qualities of the wife. Shes not a model but well above the median. 

Conclusion. Philly is very real. Or a troll with a time machine.
CASE CLOSED


----------



## thummper

PhillyGuy13 said:


> If anyone would like an email that I sent to myself back in November with screenshots of the text conversation let me know. I'm not trying to be deceitful, and again I apologize for the mistake as far as how long I thought he worked with my wife. Send me a PM and I'll give you my email. Don't think I can posts the pics in a PM but let me know.
> 
> Thanks again for the helpful support over the past couple of months. It was great having a resource to turn to, and talk things out.


Why would we want that, Philly? Your love for your wife and your concern that maybe she might be tempted by this other guy are very obvious in your posts. We trust you and what you have to say. I think most of us are rejoicing that Anna made it through her meetings in Cleveland with flying colors. I only hope that you continue to make time for each other, and never take each other for granted. A good marriage takes two, and I think you two have what it takes.


----------



## tom67

thummper said:


> Why would we want that, Philly? Your love for your wife and your concern that maybe she might be tempted by this other guy are very obvious in your posts. We trust you and what you have to say. I think most of us are rejoicing that Anna made it through her meetings in Cleveland with flying colors. I only hope that you continue to make time for each other, and never take each other for granted. A good marriage takes two, and I think you two have what it takes.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:
:smthumbup:


----------



## 3putt

weightlifter said:


> Okay connection made on FB. I asked him to make an innocuous looking post of one of three topics to prove he is him.
> 
> 1) He made the post.
> 2) Said facebook goes way back LONG before TAM.
> 3) He did well for himself on the aesthetic qualities of the wife. Shes not a model but well above the median.
> 
> Conclusion. Philly is very real. Or a troll with a time machine.
> CASE CLOSED


Was there ever any doubt? This thread doesn't even come close to what trolls want to accomplish.


----------



## thummper

3putt said:


> Was there ever any doubt? This thread doesn't even come close to what trolls want to accomplish.


Amen, brother.


----------



## tom67

3putt said:


> Was there ever any doubt? This thread doesn't even come close to what trolls want to accomplish.


I didn't even consider it.:scratchhead:


----------



## weightlifter

Apparently some either commented or contacted. I believe the post about the change in time of exposure to Kurt may be the cause. Anyway real. CASE CLOSED.

Philly can be a great asset to us in warning the men behind him about friending players. As I said in a previous post, there was a sniper rifle aimed straight at his heart and his ego. He lost his innocence here and his blind trust... but not his wife. Hopefully he is shagging the crap out of her as I type this. I am a big advocate of HB when the relationship deserves it. This one clearly does.

So Philly. Bro. Please stick around. Please provide the support to those behind you as you have received it.

WL


----------



## PhillyGuy13

weightlifter said:


> Apparently some either commented or contacted. I believe the post about the change in time of exposure to Kurt may be the cause. Anyway real. CASE CLOSED.
> 
> Philly can be a great asset to us in warning the men behind him about friending players. As I said in a previous post, there was a sniper rifle aimed straight at his heart and his ego. He lost his innocence here and his blind trust... but not his wife. Hopefully he is shagging the crap out of her as I type this. I am a big advocate of HB when the relationship deserves it. This one clearly does.
> 
> So Philly. Bro. Please stick around. Please provide the support to those behind you as you have received it.
> 
> WL


Thanks Weightlifter. We were both passed out by 12:30 but did enjoy ourselves earlier in the evening 

I guess there isn't much else to post here, unless something suddenly comes up. In the meantime I will like to hang around, enjoy the craziness, and help out where I can.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## weightlifter

Like i said. Stick around. You can be an asset.


----------



## sandc

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Thanks Weightlifter. We were both passed out by 12:30 but did enjoy ourselves earlier in the evening
> 
> I guess there isn't much else to post here, unless something suddenly comes up. In the meantime I will like to hang around, enjoy the craziness, and help out where I can.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


PG13,
There is a whole lot more to TAM than just CWI. Try the social section too. We're a bunch of lunatics over there but we're mostly harmless.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Thanks sandc will definitely check it out. CWI is bookmarked on my phone, so usually end up here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## weightlifter

seriously you can be an awesome asset here.

Your wife was targeted by a friending player. You know their MO, you know the story when you see it. You may be the man who springs another man into acting the day before something bad happens. I am here a lot but cant be here 24/7. You may save someones marriage some day.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Stick around, so we can get more outcomes like this one:
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/165802-am-i-headed-affair.html


----------



## Tobyboy

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Good friends is a stretch. They hung out yes. She usually initiated the get togethers. Like in November hey I'm still around tonight want to grab dinner? But she is now complying with not contacting him. He may have been expecting her to call him, and he never did, so then checked in with the coworker this week._Posted via Mobile Device_


Why does your wife find him so interesting that she seeks him out?



PhillyGuy13 said:


> Part of me thinks, in his mind, she is sometimes out of sight out of mind, and he may very well have a list of women he calls._Posted via Mobile Device_


Or a list of women that call him to hang out!



PhillyGuy13 said:


> I've always found him an odd guy, even before the November incident. He is 41, divorced with kid, balding, not great shape. He has girlfriend in late 20s, blonde. Very HOT. No offense to my wife.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He must be doing something right if he's attracting women of all types!!!

PG13....I'm going to be blunt. Your not out of woods by any stretch. It seems your wife was seeking validation from Kurt, for whatever reasons. Kurt obviously noticed the signals your wife was sending and made a play in initiating some flirty texts to see how she she would respond. She fell for it...hook, line and sinker!!

If you drag bait long enough....eventually you'll get a bite!!!

Your wife is not so enocent. Think about it. Kurt is not the issue here. Your wife put herself in this position and if not addressed it will continue. 

Of course that's just my opinion. Take for what it is. -Toby


----------



## davecarter

PhillyGuy13 said:


> He is 41, divorced with kid, balding, not great shape. He has girlfriend in late 20s, blonde. Very HOT





Tobyboy said:


> Why does your wife find him so interesting that she seeks him out?
> 
> (a list of women that call him to hang out!)
> 
> He must be doing something right if he's attracting women of all types!!!


Given, that he's 41, balding, out-of-shape and has baggage (but is already banging a '7' or an '8' who is much younger than he is), I think we can guess that he has one or two (or both) things going for him that women like.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Tobyboy said:


> It seems your wife was seeking validation from Kurt, for whatever reasons. Kurt obviously noticed the signals your wife was sending and made a play in initiating some flirty texts to see how she she would respond. She fell for it...hook, line and sinker!!
> 
> If you drag bait long enough....eventually you'll get a bite!!!
> 
> Your wife is not so enocent. Think about it. Kurt is not the issue here. Your wife put herself in this position and if not addressed it will continue.
> 
> Of course that's just my opinion. Take for what it is. -Toby


I agree here, though I have taken many steps to address both the immediate situation and any issues we have with the marriage.

She was definitely looking for validation from Kurt. I don't think she was looking for something physical. But she was vulnerable and IMO he fed into that. Whether it was intentional from day one (when he was hired) or after he was out the door November I will never know.

I worked with my wife at this company for a number of years. She was very successful, but was among the youngest out of 50-60 of us. We started dating shortly after she began working there. I was already there 3-4 years. Despite being the most successful, she was among the lowest paid base salary.

In 2008 the bank exited our LOB due to the poor economy. 95% of us we're let go. We were married about a year at this point. She was among the few that they kept on to close things out and wind down the business throughout 2009. Another position within another LOB opened up, it was a couple of job grades lower than she was at but it did offer stability. She applied for and got that job. She didn't love it, she was supporting others, a lot of grunt work. But still she was consistently exceeding her goals, even during the bad economy. 

Along comes Kurt. He recognized her hard work, promoted her shortly after beginning, gave her modest raise. He was offering her something that she never received before. Validation for her efforts. She definitely responded to this. In hindsight, did he see her as an easy mark? Don't know. Looking back, probably. All texts, emails and phone calls were almost all business like. She had a years worth of deleted messages on her phone from him, still in the deleted message folder. 5 of them from him to her. All work related. 

Anyway, I think she really appreciated how he treated her on the job. She finally had someone who validated her hard work and success. He on the other hand probably viewed her as a long term mark. When he lost his job (thank god) he stepped up his game that night in November, holding her hand, sending her flirty texts. He had nothing to lose by going forward that night. That is why 1. Thank god he is no longer working with her; and 2. I cannot trust them together in the future. He has nothing to lose professionally by pursuing my wife.

Hurdle #1 passed. We will address hurdle #2 when it comes up.


----------



## weightlifter

RTBPs wife got the same EXACT thing with tragic results. 

Be thankful beyond words you caught on early.


----------



## Philat

Philly, your vision is crystal clear. Nice work, and good luck.


----------



## Hicks

All workers look for validation from their bosses.

It's very hard to try to please a boss one minute, then turn it off the next minute. That's why as women entered the work force, sexual harrassment became "a thing"... That's what this is. A man taking advantage of his position as her boss.


----------



## davecarter

weightlifter said:


> RTBPs wife got the same EXACT thing with tragic results.
> 
> Be thankful beyond words you caught on early.


From memory, wasn't that particular OM-boss not only nailing RTBP's wife...but also wrecked a couple of other marriages AND had a live-in girlfriend who had left her own husband for him as well?


----------



## weightlifter

I think so.

I know from the thread her boss used a guilt trip. Acted as a mentor but in fact I am pretty sure SET HER UP to fail then "rescued" her. Still bad bad bad similarities. Even a similar job title.

IIRC the other marriages were news from the son of the POSOM who did not get a long with dad.


----------



## tom67

weightlifter said:


> I think so.
> 
> I know from the thread her boss used a guilt trip. Acted as a mentor but in fact I am pretty sure SET HER UP to fail then "rescued" her. Still bad bad bad similarities. Even a similar job title.
> 
> IIRC the other marriages were news from the son of the POSOM who did not get a long with dad.


Good that she has done all the heavy lifting up to now.


----------



## weightlifter

RTBPs wife is the BEST example of true remorse Ive seen here.

1) SELF STOPPED the affair
2) It clearly destroyed her inside with guilt before d day.
3) has no problems with his monitoring.
4) Outed herself to the neighbors when the rumors were RTBP was the cheater. If that isnt balls on a woman I dont know what is.
5) Has some of the least culpability of the waywards Ive seen here. note this is NOT an excuse. Im still pretty sure the whole thing beginning to end was a set up.
6) Trickle truth was only 1 revision. yes 1 too many but compared to....
7) She is self starting on looking for ways to help him.


----------



## Knobbers

weightlifter said:


> RTBPs wife is the BEST example of true remorse Ive seen here.
> 
> 1) SELF STOPPED the affair
> 2) It clearly destroyed her inside with guilt before d day.
> 3) has no problems with his monitoring.
> 4) Outed herself to the neighbors when the rumors were RTBP was the cheater. If that isnt balls on a woman I dont know what is.
> 5) Has some of the least culpability of the waywards Ive seen here. note this is NOT an excuse. Im still pretty sure the whole thing beginning to end was a set up.
> 6) Trickle truth was only 1 revision. yes 1 too many but compared to....
> 7) She is self starting on looking for ways to help him.


First of all, great job pg13! I think you handled this really well and I'm stoked the situation turned out great for you.

Weightlifter, you are the man. The service you provide and advice you give is always solid. You are a valuable asset to this community, I hope I never need your help, but if I do can I call? Haha

RTBP handled his situation great, I would have been a puddle of piss in his shoes. His wife has really done a great job also, I root for people like them.

Its not often enough things turn out well in this section of the forums, so its a great feeling when I read that they do. Now back to my hole...


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Weightlifter really helped me keep my sanity over past couple of months. I owe him a beer someday, somewhere. Lots of good people on this forum. Lots of weirdos too (guilty as charged)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sidney2718

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Along comes Kurt. He recognized her hard work, promoted her shortly after beginning, gave her modest raise. He was offering her something that she never received before. Validation for her efforts. She definitely responded to this. In hindsight, did he see her as an easy mark? Don't know. Looking back, probably. All texts, emails and phone calls were almost all business like. She had a years worth of deleted messages on her phone from him, still in the deleted message folder. 5 of them from him to her. All work related.
> 
> Anyway, I think she really appreciated how he treated her on the job. She finally had someone who validated her hard work and success. He on the other hand probably viewed her as a long term mark. When he lost his job (thank god) he stepped up his game that night in November, holding her hand, sending her flirty texts. He had nothing to lose by going forward that night. That is why 1. Thank god he is no longer working with her; and 2. I cannot trust them together in the future. He has nothing to lose professionally by pursuing my wife.
> 
> Hurdle #1 passed. We will address hurdle #2 when it comes up.


I suspect that you are right. In fact he may have actually appreciated her effort and rewarded her for it. That act may have brought her further to his attention and then marked her (as you say) as a long-term mark.

As for trusting her around Kurt in the future, I thought that circumstances had changed and the likelyhood of her being in his vicinity had dropped markedly?


----------



## PhillyGuy13

sidney2718 said:


> I suspect that you are right. In fact he may have actually appreciated her effort and rewarded her for it. That act may have brought her further to his attention and then marked her (as you say) as a long-term mark.
> 
> As for trusting her around Kurt in the future, I thought that circumstances had changed and the likelyhood of her being in his vicinity had dropped markedly?


Yes it did. No longer work together. 500 miles or so apart. Only remaining risk is her business trips out there, whenever that may be. Nothing scheduled for foreseeable future.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## paul72

Rules, forbidding, cyber stalking, always talking about it....

DOES NOT WORK

If your wife likes you and you fulfill her she wont cheat.... if she fulfills you you wont cheat.....

Just be cool..... this sounds like innocent flirtation.... I'm guessing if some hot chick cozied up to you you'd probably smile back at her and chat her up a bit.... why are you getting all crazy about her doing the same **** you would do


----------



## weightlifter

LIke I said. keep the new sex levels up and worry about the next cleveland trip IN AUGUST-ish when it happens.

Meanwhile #drill sergeant voice.

ATTENTION!
Phillyguy13.
Your mission is to inseminate your attractive wife until your balls ache and dont ever let it fall to two times a month unless one or both of you is ill.
MOVE IT! MOVE IT! MOVE IT!


----------



## PhillyGuy13

weightlifter said:


> LIke I said. keep the new sex levels up and worry about the next cleveland trip IN AUGUST-ish when it happens.
> 
> Meanwhile #drill sergeant voice.
> 
> ATTENTION!
> Phillyguy13.
> Your mission is to inseminate your attractive wife until your balls ache and dont ever let it fall to two times a month unless one or both of you is ill.
> MOVE IT! MOVE IT! MOVE IT!


Lol So romantic! I'm going to put this in my wife's Valentine card. Hope I don't put it in the one from the kids. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## weightlifter

Uh Im a nuclear warhead.

USE the words that will get you into her pants. I just realized you got two proverbial shots across the bow.
1) A player targeting your wife and the fact she does have boundary issues. SHe DOES realize that right? Being out alone with a man... holding hands... drunk with same...
2) Need to up your game in the BR and never let it slip down again. Fortunately. THAT ONE IS Fun!

Random idea. On V night. Ask her to tell you her dirtiest kinkiest fantasy then do it to her or if its something like outside or a nudoir book... wait on the weather or execution times. Obviously no third parties and we have recently had a thread about a dominatrix but short of that... the question wont be out of place that night.

Maybe the bad girl needs a spanking for scaring you so much...

Am I promoting myself from Captain Obvious to Major Obvious on this one?


----------



## PhillyGuy13

weightlifter said:


> Uh Im a nuclear warhead.
> 
> USE the words that will get you into her pants. I just realized you got two proverbial shots across the bow.
> 1) A player targeting your wife and the fact she does have boundary issues. SHe DOES realize that right? Being out alone with a man... holding hands... drunk with same...
> 2) Need to up your game in the BR and never let it slip down again. Fortunately. THAT ONE IS Fun!
> 
> Random idea. On V night. Ask her to tell you her dirtiest kinkiest fantasy then do it to her or if its something like outside or a nudoir book... wait on the weather or execution times. Obviously no third parties and we have recently had a thread about a dominatrix but short of that... the question wont be out of place that night.
> 
> Maybe the bad girl needs a spanking for scaring you so much...
> 
> Am I promoting myself from Captain Obvious to Major Obvious on this one?


Just having fun with you. 

Funny you mention the fantasies. I actually wrote down three of my own and was going to invite her to do the same for Vday. I won't share what they are. I did delete cooking lessons from the list- didn't want to offend her.


----------



## weightlifter

Dont need to know what YOUR wifes fantasies are but YOU DO!

Look at it this way.

This summer armageddon is coming. 50 shades is going to be a movie and a whole bunch of women are going to get those fantasies but because they have normal husbands who are not "alpha" enough and/or they are afraid to ask... Untold number of men are going to have their hearts ripped out.

She is your wife, your sole closest human relationship. Tell and ask and V night is the perfect time to do it!

Re-asking question.

She does realize the inappropriateness of it?


----------



## davecarter

weightlifter said:


> Dont need to know what YOUR wifes fantasies are but YOU DO!
> 
> Look at it this way.
> 
> This summer armageddon is coming. 50 shades is going to be a movie and a whole bunch of women are going to get those fantasies but because they have normal husbands who are not "alpha" enough and/or they are afraid to ask... Untold number of men are going to have their hearts ripped out.
> 
> She is your wife, your sole closest human relationship. Tell and ask and V night is the perfect time to do it!
> 
> Re-asking question.
> 
> She does realize the inappropriateness of it?


Ooohhhh it's going to be carnage on a biblical scale! 

Seriously though, the reason I now date/sleep with women younger than myself is that I'm now 47 - my last two hookups have been 42 and 36 and, no bu11sh1t here, I'm seeing a 29 yr old tomorrow night (a '7', but seriously good body and kinky mind) - is that they are much more receptive to 'anything-goes' sexual fantasies and kinks nowadays.
The playing-field has _definitely _been leveled.

If you expect women to be all 'turn-off-the-lights-and-lets-make-love-missionary'...you're in trouble.


----------



## weightlifter

I kind of love having a thread where, yea there is damage, but compared to what [insert untold numbers here poster name] went thru...

Not only salvageable but potentially life long love. We can only hope but cheers to a reasonable ending.

Still, SHE DOES realize that whole thing was very inappropriate right?


----------



## PhillyGuy13

She knows what he texted was highly inappropriate.

She knows her responses were highly inappropriate. 

What I'm not 100% sure on is that she realizes he wanted to sleep with her. We haven't talked about it lately, but she still chalks it up to him being too drunk, but would never try anything. I've told her I am 100% sure he would have tried something. He may not actively pursue it, but alone, drinking, if the opportunity was there, he will take it.

I think she thinks I'm a bit paranoid, but has honored my requests so far.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tobyboy

Thing is....your wife put herself in that position!!! They were alone, both drinking, holding hands(at one point). This was a date that your wife initiated!!! Kurt girlfriend just happened to be the "cvck blocker".
How would your wife feel if you went out with Kurt's hot girlfriend had dinner, drinks for both, held hands, a little sexting?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## weightlifter

If there comes a time when you end up talking about it again. I dont have time for it now but Im gonna find you a players link to exactly how players work that will not come back here. Have her read it then tell her "I love you but men like this are out there and EVERYWHERE. Kurt is one of them and using his mentoring position to do it with."

These animals will work MONTHS on a target woman because they are working multiple women.


----------



## Tobyboy

weightlifter said:


> If there comes a time when you end up talking about it again. I dont have time for it now but Im gonna find you a players link to exactly how players work that will not come back here. Have her read it then tell her "I love you but men like this are out there and EVERYWHERE. Kurt is one of them and using his mentoring position to do it with."
> 
> These animals will work MONTHS on a target woman because they are working multiple women.


Kurt doesn't come across as a "player" (from what PG13 has written). IMO, PG13's wife was playing Kurt! Think about it....if Kurt was such a player he would have relentlessly pursued Kurt's wife after the texting incident. So far he hasn't shown interest!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## davecarter

Tobyboy said:


> Kurt doesn't come across as a "player" (from what PG13 has written). IMO, PG13's wife was playing Kurt! Think about it....if Kurt was such a player he would have relentlessly pursued Kurt's wife after the texting incident. So far he hasn't shown interest!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agreed.
Kurt doesn't sound like a 'Chad' (Eric415) or a 'Bob' (RDMU), even though the latter wasn't the WW's boss.


----------



## badbane

PhillyGuy13 said:


> She knows what he texted was highly inappropriate.
> 
> She knows her responses were highly inappropriate.
> 
> What I'm not 100% sure on is that she realizes he wanted to sleep with her. We haven't talked about it lately, but she still chalks it up to him being too drunk, but would never try anything. I've told her I am 100% sure he would have tried something. He may not actively pursue it, but alone, drinking, if the opportunity was there, he will take it.
> 
> I think she thinks I'm a bit paranoid, but has honored my requests so far.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This reminds me of what I went through. I caught my wife flirting with a guy to the point that he send her a naked pic. Then got wrapped up with some other dude. I caught it before a PA was in the picture. but if she doesn't recognize what she was doing wrong. Make her go to MC. If she is going on this trip and OM is there. Then there needs to be a NO contact agreement. Hi and bye not shaking hands , no touching, at all, if she can't agree to it then there is a problem. It isn't a matter of appropriateness. She is your wife and should respect your wishes. Just like if you had a gorgeous secretary I doubt your wife would be okay with you taking her to lunch or going to the bar.


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## PhillyGuy13

Tobyboy said:


> Kurt doesn't come across as a "player" (from what PG13 has written). IMO, PG13's wife was playing Kurt!]


This is a new idea that nobody has brought up before. Explain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ThePheonix

PhillyGuy13 said:


> What I'm not 100% sure on is that she realizes he wanted to sleep with her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're kidding I hope. How many women do you know that can't tell a man if wants to sleep with her. She knows exactly what he was "hinting" at. It would shine a bad light on her to admit it in respect ot the dialog she had with him.


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## sandc

My wife for one. She is incredibly naive when it comes to the intentions of other men. She has only been educated since my coming here and going over with her many of the scenarios we encounter here.


----------



## Refuse to be played

weightlifter said:


> IIRC the other marriages were news from the son of the POSOM who did not get a long with dad.


Not to threadjack but after Dday expose to his 3 adult kids since he been divorced for like 15 yrs. Oldest told me he cheated on his mom at least 3 times, two were married.

His ex-GF accidentally let me know about her situation. One email early on said she'd been living with him about 1.5 years but been on and off with him for near 6. A month or so later we were exchanging messages and she lets slip shes been divorced for about 2 yrs. When I called her out on the slip she backtracked and said she was separated from her ex-H but you guys know the deal.

So in short my wife's ex-boss is a supreme POS douche bag.

Seems like this guy is one too. Good job nipping it in the bud Philly.


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## Philat

PhillyGuy13 said:


> This is a new idea that nobody has brought up before. Explain.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nobody has brought it up because it's extremely far-fetched.


----------



## Tobyboy

PhillyGuy13 said:


> This is a new idea that nobody has brought up before. Explain.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Easy. Reverse the genders. Imagine your W being Kurt and vise versa. Now look at the actions each was partaking up until you discovered the text exchange.

The way I see it. Your wife pursued. She initiated most contact. Got Kurt drunk. Played him till he couldn't resist some physical contact(hand holding). Left him wanting more(the texting). Then leaving the door open for future contact.("don't forget me","hope your around next time I'm here")

Now that's how you play someone! When you become the chase...not the chaser!


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Tobyboy said:


> Easy. Reverse the genders. Imagine your W being Kurt and vise versa. Now look at the actions each was partaking up until you discovered the text exchange.
> 
> The way I see it. Your wife pursued. She initiated most contact. Got Kurt drunk. Played him till he couldn't resist some physical contact(hand holding). Left him wanting more(the texting). Then leaving the door open for future contact.("don't forget me","hope your around next time I'm here")
> 
> Now that's how you play someone! When you become the chase...not the chaser!


Well there were no actions up until I discovered the text messages, which I was reading more or less in real time, give or take 15-20 minutes. No evidence of anything untoward on either side until that night.

She got him drunk? Neither one forced alcohol down the other's throat. There is no evidence she is a player, but maybe I'm biased.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tobyboy

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Well there were no actions up until I discovered the text messages, which I was reading more or less in real time, give or take 15-20 minutes. No evidence of anything untoward on either side until that night.
> 
> She got him drunk? Neither one forced alcohol down the other's throat. There is no evidence she is a player, but maybe I'm biased.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok. So be it. 

One last question and I'll bow out of this thread. 

What if you hadn't caught the text exchange?


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Tobyboy said:


> Ok. So be it.
> 
> One last question and I'll bow out of this thread.
> 
> What if you hadn't caught the text exchange?


Then things probably would have escalated to a point of no return next time they were together.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happi_g_more2

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Then things probably would have escalated to a point of no return next time they were together.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ive been keeping up with this thread. I dont agree. It doesnt sound like, to me anyway, that your wife was ever in any real danger of doing something stupid. I do find this an interesting question though. Have you asked her this flat out? Find a way to phrase it that will lower her instinct to lie. Fully understanding that its almost impossible to know if she is telling the truth for sure. However, if she comes back with "maybe" or "I dont know", well then you have your answer. If she comes back with "Philly, i really detest OM and would puke if he were naked in the same room", I think you can feel pretty confident. just my opinion


----------



## weightlifter

I see kurt as a player but not Bobs league. I see clear probes on kurts end.

NOONE ive seen here is in Bobs league. (Yes the wrap up is coming i promise.) The sheer evil of Bob.

Edit. Just thought of one. Rtbps wife om.


----------



## Philat

weightlifter said:


> I see kurt as a player but not Bobs league. I see clear probes on kurts end.
> 
> NOONE ive seen here is in Bobs league. (Yes the wrap up is coming i promise.) The sheer evil of Bob.
> 
> Edit. Just thought of one. Rtbps wife om.


Looking forward to the wrap-up. Hope it includes Rdmu coming down on boob like 10 tons of cinder blocks.


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## PhillyGuy13

Philat said:


> Looking forward to the wrap-up. Hope it includes Rdmu coming down on boob like 10 tons of cinder blocks.


Intentional typo? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3putt

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Intentional typo?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's what we all called him back in the day. Just like Chad was Choad.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

happi_g_more2 said:


> Ive been keeping up with this thread. I dont agree. It doesnt sound like, to me anyway, that your wife was ever in any real danger of doing something stupid. I do find this an interesting question though. Have you asked her this flat out? Find a way to phrase it that will lower her instinct to lie. Fully understanding that its almost impossible to know if she is telling the truth for sure. However, if she comes back with "maybe" or "I dont know", well then you have your answer. If she comes back with "Philly, i really detest OM and would puke if he were naked in the same room", I think you can feel pretty confident. just my opinion


She has repeatedly said 100% that's gross..., I don't like him like that..., I would never... Not one quarter given as to if she would ever step out, or even had a crush. A crush wouldn't have been a deal breaker, assuming she didn't act on it, but I wish she had come clean. I treated it like a crush, rightly so. Maybe I overreacted and she was honest that she felt nothing, but I'm not one to leave things to chance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sandc

weightlifter said:


> I see kurt as a player but not Bobs league. I see clear probes on kurts end.
> 
> NOONE ive seen here is in Bobs league. (Yes the wrap up is coming i promise.) The sheer evil of Bob.
> 
> Edit. Just thought of one. Rtbps wife om.


I hope the wrap up is coming. For some reason I feel left hanging.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

I'll have to read through the threads again. Has to be better than the new posts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

Philly, just one comment. If there had been nothing there she wouldn't have been texting him. I can't count how many times we've heard WS's say they would never be attracted to those that eventually turned out to be APs."I would never" quickly turns into "I don't understand how this happened."


----------



## PhillyGuy13

bfree said:


> Philly, just one comment. If there had been nothing there she wouldn't have been texting him. I can't count how many times we've heard WS's say they would never be attracted to those that eventually turned out to be APs."I would never" quickly turns into "I don't understand how this happened."


I agree -- there was at least SOMETHING there. Probably relatively minor, but certainly not harmless.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workindad

At a minimum she liked the attention.

She can't be that clueless.


----------



## Nucking Futs

PhillyGuy13 said:


> She has repeatedly said 100% that's gross..., I don't like him like that..., I would never... Not one quarter given as to if she would ever step out, or even had a crush. A crush wouldn't have been a deal breaker, assuming she didn't act on it, but I wish she had come clean. I treated it like a crush, rightly so. Maybe I overreacted and she was honest that she felt nothing, but I'm not one to leave things to chance.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Get an overnight sitter for the kids, book a nice hotel room, get her drunk and ask her again. See if the answer changes.


----------



## bfree

Nucking Futs said:


> Get an overnight sitter for the kids, book a nice hotel room, get her drunk and ask her again. See if the answer changes.


Even if you don't get an answer the night could still be fun. :smthumbup:


----------



## Want2babettrme

weightlifter said:


> I see kurt as a player but not Bobs league. I see clear probes on kurts end.
> 
> NOONE ive seen here is in Bobs league. (Yes the wrap up is coming i promise.) The sheer evil of Bob.
> 
> Edit. Just thought of one. Rtbps wife om.


Boob is in need of a karma bus ride of biblical proportions! Reading Rdmu's thread left me unable to breathe.


----------



## sidney2718

sandc said:


> I hope the wrap up is coming. For some reason I feel left hanging.


Me too! Especially after RDMU went suddenly black in his return thread. I was (am) afraid that something had gone wrong.

But to the thread at hand: Philly, in reading what you wrote about your wife I too never got the impression that she was in any way seeking anything physical. It is exciting to be chased after and many a trusted poster here has admitted to liking flirting.

Yes, Kurt was and is an unknown factor and we all have our weak spots, but I believe your wife when she says that she was not thinking of anything physical.


----------



## weightlifter

sidney2718 said:


> Yes, Kurt was and is an unknown factor and we all have our weak spots, but I believe your wife when she says that she was not thinking of anything physical.


I agree at that point in time but guys like him probe and probe and probe and probe and....

They will work months to bed a woman, waiting for the trip after a fight or when she is feeling lonely...


----------



## Philat

weightlifter said:


> I agree at that point in time but guys like him probe and probe and probe and probe and....
> 
> They will work months to bed a woman, waiting for the trip after a fight or when she is feeling lonely...


And that's the danger of maintaining contact with these guys, even if you think you can "handle it" (like cjl's wife). It allows them to monitor the situation and pick a weak moment to exploit.


----------



## brokeneric

weightlifter said:


> I agree at that point in time but guys like him probe and probe and probe and probe and....
> 
> They will work months to bed a woman, waiting for the trip after a fight or when she is feeling lonely...


There are guys like this OM who would keep probing, not months but years till they can bed. I happen to know someone just like this POS- my bio dad. Going after him like a rabid dog is the best solution.


----------



## davecarter

weightlifter said:


> I see kurt as a player but not Bobs league. I see clear probes on kurts end.
> 
> NOONE ive seen here is in Bobs league. (Yes the wrap up is coming i promise.) The sheer evil of Bob.
> 
> Edit. Just thought of one. Rtbps wife om.


Hmmm...I wouldn't say these guys are 'evil', per se. Apart form having total lack of morals, they just do what a lot of guy do: they just want to f*cuk married women (_although drugging your own wife to confuse and gaslight her, makes me think 'Boob' isn't mentally 'wired-up' right_ :scratchhead: ).
I think these guys stand out on TAM because they have 'names' instead of just 'The OM':
* Kunt
* Choad
* Boob

In PhillyGuy13's story, his wife's boss, 'Kunt' does sound strange: why would a 43-year old, balding doughboy with a hot 29 year old girlfriend....target, amongst others, a happily married woman and Mom in her 40s? 
_(no offense to your wife Philly!)_


----------



## weightlifter

davecarter said:


> Hmmm...I wouldn't say these guys are 'evil', per se. Apart form having total lack of morals, they just do what a lot of guy do: they just want to f*cuk married women (_although drugging your own wife to confuse and gaslight her, makes me think 'Boob' isn't mentally 'wired-up' right_ :scratchhead: ).
> I think these guys stand out on TAM because they have 'names' instead of just 'The OM':
> * Kunt
> * Choad
> * Boob
> 
> In PhillyGuy13's story, his wife's boss, 'Kunt' does sound strange: why would a 43-year old, balding doughboy with a hot 29 year old girlfriend....target, amongst others, a happily married woman and Mom in her 40s?
> _(no offense to your wife Philly!)_


Philly and I FB'ed. Dude she aint a model but Philly did do well for himself. I can see why.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

davecarter said:


> Hmmm...I wouldn't say these guys are 'evil', per se. Apart form having total lack of morals, they just do what a lot of guy do: they just want to f*cuk married women (_although drugging your own wife to confuse and gaslight her, makes me think 'Boob' isn't mentally 'wired-up' right_ :scratchhead: ).
> I think these guys stand out on TAM because they have 'names' instead of just 'The OM':
> * Kunt
> * Choad
> * Boob
> 
> In PhillyGuy13's story, his wife's boss, 'Kunt' does sound strange: why would a 43-year old, balding doughboy with a hot 29 year old girlfriend....target, amongst others, a happily married woman and Mom in her 40s?
> _(no offense to your wife Philly!)_


Well he is "only" 41 wife is 33 but point taken.

Evil is a strong word. He could spend his weekends serving meals to homeless children for all I know. But his ACTIONS with my wife are evil. But if I was given the option of teleporting one person off this planet. It would be him. Or my mother. No probably him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

davecarter said:


> Hmmm...I wouldn't say these guys are 'evil', per se. Apart form having total lack of morals, they just do what a lot of guy do: they just want to f*cuk married women (_although drugging your own wife to confuse and gaslight her, makes me think 'Boob' isn't mentally 'wired-up' right_ :scratchhead: ).
> I think these guys stand out on TAM because they have 'names' instead of just 'The OM':
> * Kunt
> * Choad
> * Boob
> 
> In PhillyGuy13's story, his wife's boss, 'Kunt' does sound strange: why would a 43-year old, balding doughboy with a hot 29 year old girlfriend....target, amongst others, a happily married woman and Mom in her 40s?
> _(no offense to your wife Philly!)_


If he is a player, everyone is a target. I heard a guy on tv say they hit on as many women as possible but are only successful ten percent of the time. According to him that was a lot of women.


----------



## Chaparral

Here is an example that numbadger posted a couple of years or so ago.

*Findingmyway was a player, I don't know if he comes on here much now, but he did leave a point of view thread although I can't find it. He posted something similar to me, here it is.:
***********************************************

My perspective- as a serial cheat. Before I start, I'm no GQ model look alike and I'm not wealthy.

For me, it was always about extra sex. The thrill of the chase and ego boost was a plus, but I just wanted more sex than my wife did. I always loved my wife and certainly never ever wanted to leave her or lose her. Especially not over someone else's wayward wife.

I had a simple method. I used it because it worked. I targeted married women. I figured they were safer for several important reasons.
1- Less likely to be sleeping around with random guys (STDs).
2- Less likely to pull the crazy girlfriend BS and call my wife.
3- In case of an unwanted pregnancy, I had a built in schmuck to pay the tab and would have claimed to have had a vasectomy.

The most important part of being a player is to hide it. I started with shy looks making certain I'd get caught and then doing my best to look embarrassed. If she started to come around more or dress sexier then I'd try a safe compliment. If she called me on my BS (yes, it happened) I simply acted highly offended. After all, I'm a married family man. That usually got me an apology. A few really smart ones just avoided me altogether.

If she accepted the compliment, I knew I had a chance. I never ever wasted time with someone that I didn't want to bed. If the compliment was successful, I simply followed with more as time permitted and just let things develop. Who knew where it would go? When she would speak with me about her frustrations with her husband (they always complained about their husband) I used that to my advantage. If they complained that he didn't do enough with the kids, I was dad of the year. If he didn't help out around the house, I did everything at home so my wife didn't have to. Yes, it was complete BS, but so what. My job was to make them feel special, pretty and needed and to paint the fantasy. After all, my goal was not conversation or friendship. I wanted to score.

Once things progressed and I had to keep it intense unless it was simply a once and done kind of thing. I would do that by pushing her boundaries for sex. Anal, public hook-up whatever. Keep in mind, I'm in it for the sex so I tried for everything I liked and heard more than once statements like... I never even let my husband do that. That was usually with anal, but sometimes public hook-ups also.

I certainly didn't want to be paying for hotel rooms out my pocket. If she wanted to pay, that was fine. Otherwise, we could hook-up anywhere, it didn't matter to me.

I always advised them to keep the secret between us, because it was so special. Actually, I didn't want to get busted. If they got busted, and some did. That was their tough crap to deal with. I certainly never vowed to love/honor/cherish them.

As I look back, I'm stunned at how easy it was and how many fell for my crap. I had some that would try to pull away and I'd feed them the star crossed lovers BS, you know... kept apart by the cruel hand of fate. That worked like magic to seal the deal. I also used things like I think my wife may have cheated on me. Then I'd work in how I got tested for STDs and it was clear and somehow manage to mention my vasectomy (never had one). Understand? I'm safe, you won't catch anything if you sleep with me and I won't get you pregnant. That was the message.

The one thing that sent me running was the fear of getting caught and sometimes I just wanted a quick bang and wasn't in it for a couple of months of an affair. I'm still also amazed by how many didn't see through my crap either. They didn't have to deal with the day to day stresses that adults face with me (finances, mortgages, car payments, child care, time commitments, etc.). With me, it was just fun and sex. The poor bastard at home didn't have a chance once the play was in motion. It also helped me to see him as a douche-bag when his wife whined about him for whatever reason.

I work with a woman that has lost everything over an affair with me. The house, husband, family, etc. It's difficult to see. She hates me now, but I never vowed anything to her or forced her to do anything. That's her tough crap. Her kids are in therapy, their grades tanked and she's struggling financially and the kids blame her, etc. Honestly, I wish she'd quit so I didn't have to see her every freaking day.


I do know a few like me that I consider even worse. They brag and laugh about getting wayward wives to do things and try to get email or text proof to show off. It's pretty easy, just tell her how much he liked doing X with her last night and let her respond. Then they had proof to brag about and trade notes. I didn't do that. I just wanted the sex and avoided the women they talked about. I liked to find the ones who would seem to be the last to ever do anything like this. Goes back to my 3 reasons.

I never flirted with a married woman unless I wanted in her pants. Plain and simple, you do have to hide it so they don't see it coming, but it's really that basic. Other players use different methods, but we all use what works and modify sometimes if we're not progressing to try a different angle. Not all women are the same, and sometimes deviations are required if she'll let you in her pants.

It was never about love, just sex. I sold the fantasy, yes. But that is all it ever was. A fair trade. They were adults and quite frankly should have known better. Am I a predator, I certainly never thought so and I certainly never thought about what would happen to them when we were done. Yes, all my affairs ended. Most stayed married to their H they *****ed about and screwed around on. Therefore, he must not have been that bad. People just get caught up with unrealistic expectations on life I think. For goodness sake, Prince charming is only charming because he wants a blow job.

Before I close, I'll say this as well. An engaged woman would have worked for me also, but I never found one that would go for me. Also, newly married women are much harder to get. I had the best luck with women who had been married for at least several years, throw a kid or two in the mix and they were usually more susceptible to being chased.

It was a fair trade. Attention and compliments for sex.
*


----------



## Philat

Chaparral said:


> If he is a player, everyone is a target. I heard a guy on tv say they hit on as many women as possible but are only successful ten percent of the time. According to him that was a lot of women.


And those ten percent think the player is interested in them as a person. I don't think evil is too extreme a term for these guys.


----------



## weightlifter

The Reddit player post shows more info IMHO.


----------



## alexm

My take on this (and feel free to disagree!) is that I don't think he was setting her up long term. To me, this sounds an awful lot like a guy who was embarrassed (and sad) that he lost his job, especially because he was in a position of authority to this group.

By keeping in touch with them, he wants to show them he's "okay", as it's a major blow to anyone's ego to lose your job for any reason. It's sad and a little pathetic, but it's easy enough to get caught up in the "poor me" mentality, and feel like you have to almost defend yourself. If he has any pride, he wouldn't want his former co-workers to be thinking anything negative about him, hence the keeping in touch.

From what I've read, I think the thoughts about OP's wife came later, perhaps only that night, even. Unfortunately, both OP's wife and Kurt had a little too much to drink, had some fun, made a connection that wasn't there before (however small).

Where Kurt went wrong was in pursuing it, even at the minutest of stages (throwing up the weather balloon. Op's wife responded positively enough, which is where SHE went wrong.

But I really don't get the impression this was a set up from the beginning. I honestly think that this was just one of those things, and neither party handled it well.

Now that's not to say OP didn't do the right thing, in fact quite the opposite. Even in regards to the PI (something I very very rarely agree with).

But, and I'm NOT defending Kurt one bit, I don't think he deserves as much blame as he's getting here, or the speculation about his motives, for that matter. Is he a nice guy for ostensibly hitting on someone else's wife? Absolutely not. But is OP's wife completely innocent? No, however naïve she was, with no intentions of anything happening.

I will back this up by saying that a similar scenario occurred to my wife and I, several years ago. Well, similar in terms of accepting validating comments naively. I believe I nipped that in the bud, and haven't seen any indication it still happens. I also don't believe she would have done anything, either, but it's more the fact that we guys understand other guys far better than our wives and gf's do. There IS a naiveness in women for this sort of thing.

Essentially, my wife works with 99% men, and in a so-called "man's job" (there's no other way to put it, sorry). Although they all treat her as an equal, she was still spoken to as though it was a prison and she was the only woman there. As far as I now, nothing over the top (she wouldn't stand for that), however, much like Kurt, throwing up weather balloons, compliments, validation, etc. How she responded did not indicate that she did not like, or even enjoy what some of these guys were saying to her. I caught some of this through FB messaging, which she would type right in front of me. I pointed out how her responses were essentially egging these guys on, and how men think, and that they were truly not just being "friendly". It seemed to be a moment of epiphany for her, and I haven't seen this since.



PhillyGuy13 said:


> I agree here, though I have taken many steps to address both the immediate situation and any issues we have with the marriage.
> 
> She was definitely looking for validation from Kurt. I don't think she was looking for something physical. But she was vulnerable and IMO he fed into that. Whether it was intentional from day one (when he was hired) or after he was out the door November I will never know.
> 
> I worked with my wife at this company for a number of years. She was very successful, but was among the youngest out of 50-60 of us. We started dating shortly after she began working there. I was already there 3-4 years. Despite being the most successful, she was among the lowest paid base salary.
> 
> In 2008 the bank exited our LOB due to the poor economy. 95% of us we're let go. We were married about a year at this point. She was among the few that they kept on to close things out and wind down the business throughout 2009. Another position within another LOB opened up, it was a couple of job grades lower than she was at but it did offer stability. She applied for and got that job. She didn't love it, she was supporting others, a lot of grunt work. But still she was consistently exceeding her goals, even during the bad economy.
> 
> Along comes Kurt. He recognized her hard work, promoted her shortly after beginning, gave her modest raise. He was offering her something that she never received before. Validation for her efforts. She definitely responded to this. In hindsight, did he see her as an easy mark? Don't know. Looking back, probably. All texts, emails and phone calls were almost all business like. She had a years worth of deleted messages on her phone from him, still in the deleted message folder. 5 of them from him to her. All work related.
> 
> Anyway, I think she really appreciated how he treated her on the job. She finally had someone who validated her hard work and success. He on the other hand probably viewed her as a long term mark. When he lost his job (thank god) he stepped up his game that night in November, holding her hand, sending her flirty texts. He had nothing to lose by going forward that night. That is why 1. Thank god he is no longer working with her; and 2. I cannot trust them together in the future. He has nothing to lose professionally by pursuing my wife.
> 
> Hurdle #1 passed. We will address hurdle #2 when it comes up.


----------



## thummper

Is she still insisting that he grabbed her hand and she immediately jerked it away. As plastered as they were, I think they were probably strolling down the street holding hands and talking to each other. It's a miracle that they didn't end up in a room together that night. Hope she's scared out of trying this again.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

thummper said:


> Is she still insisting that he grabbed her hand and she immediately jerked it away. As plastered as they were, I think they were probably strolling down the street holding hands and talking to each other. It's a miracle that they didn't end up in a room together that night. Hope she's scared out of trying this again.


Yes. Asked about the handholding several times, not lately, between mid November and holidays. Story was she immediately pulled away. Story never made sense. One, if she pulled away it is because she knew it was inappropriate. So if she knew that then she knows he was looking for something more, which she also denied. 

Alex- good post you may be right. Could be perfectly innocent with no real bad intentions. I was unwilling to take that chance though.

For what it's worth, he landed a new job around the first of the year, similar position, different bank.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Philat

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Yes. Asked about the handholding several times, not lately, between mid November and holidays. Story was she immediately pulled away. Story never made sense. One, if she pulled away it is because she knew it was inappropriate. So if she knew that then she knows he was looking for something more, which she also denied.
> 
> Alex- good post you may be right. Could be perfectly innocent with no real bad intentions. I was unwilling to take that chance though.
> 
> For what it's worth, he landed a new job around the first of the year, similar position, different bank.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't think alex was saying it was perfectly innocent, just that it was not premeditated on either side.


----------



## bigbearsfan

:iagree:

PG13 this is the first thread I read when I first came to this site a couple of weeks ago and man, I have been pulling for ya. I think you caught it and nipped it in the butt before anything could happen. Good job :smthumbup:


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Thanks BBF appreciate the support. It will always be a struggle, hopefully less so each day.

Do you have a story here as well, or "just browsing"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bigbearsfan

I was just browsing at first, but may have a story coming soon. My gut has been roaring the last couple of weeks. So reading threads and post, esp. weightlifters guide, I am setting up surveillance mode and see what I can find. I always thought facebook would have been the problem, but experience project is just pure hell for me right now.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

If there is one piece of advice I can give-- and almost everyone will back me up--- if you haven't confronted wife yet, then DONT. Keep digging, turn over every rock that you can. Email, especially Sent and Trash folders, phone VAR, computer, iPads. Deleted voicemails folder. Search the car. No matter how much it is killing you stay quiet.

I confronted my wife the same day I saw her texts. She came home saw I was sick. I should have pretended I had the flu. Of course I had no gameplan before hand on what to do. So to this day I always wonder did I drive things underground? Is something still going on?

Now I was lucky that I had 500 miles between them. It wasn't like he was in the next town over. I was also able to put the fear of god into her, so she knew that if anything happened I was out the door. And so far she has honored her marriage vows to me.

But long story short, keep quiet and don't let her know you suspect something.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## weightlifter

BBF.

Curious I know what the experience project is but Ill hafta admit. THAT one is new. Explain? PM if you need.

#master kan voice. Philly you have learned well...

Early confronts are disasters.
1) If shes innocent you just fvcked things up.
2) If shes guilty she is gonna shoot your azz down. A confront is nuclear fvcking war. You hit her with a mountain of evidence. You CRUSH her resistance, destroying it, obliterating it. Oddly the ones that surrender completely at this point are most likely the ones to get an offer of reconciliation.

Need tech help. Let me know.

Philly you are likely good bro. Never close your eyes but I think you killed this before Kurt found the right probe and/or the right timing. Just love her till the next trip.


----------



## alexm

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Alex- good post you may be right. Could be perfectly innocent with no real bad intentions. I was unwilling to take that chance though.
> *
> Oh, I didn't say it was innocent  But in terms of the longterm targeting of her, I don't think so. As for bad intentions - definitely, although at that moment, or earlier that particular evening. Prior to that, again, I don't believe so.
> 
> I think the majority of us guys are the same - we generally don't target women longterm like that, and quite often, we don't even generally think of a particular woman "that way" until if/when they give off a vibe. We guys are fairly impatient, and when we're single, we go for it. We're not the types to spend months (or in this case, years) patiently waiting for you women to "come around" and make the first move. Even if we're the shy type, waiting for her to make the first move, we won't spend years doing it.
> 
> However, and I can tell you this has happened to me, as it probably has to most of you, that we will view a woman (co-worker, friend, whatever) in a completely non-romantic way for what seems like forever. But the second she gives any sort of indication she's interested in more (even when it's unintentional) we can change like THAT. Often it's with women who we think are unattainable, whether they are higher on the sex scale than you, or they are married. There are some women we just won't bother with, for whatever reason. Hell, they can even be unattractive to us. But if they suddenly give off the vibe, we change the way we look at them. We're pretty stupid that way.
> 
> I am thinking this is exactly how this scenario ended up. I'm thinking that he may have found her attractive while they worked together, but left it at that. That's normal. She's a co-worker (and subordinate) and married. He likely kept in touch after he was let go, just because. Maybe he genuinely liked them all, but more likely, keeping contacts within the same industry isn't exactly a stupid thing to do.
> 
> So they all get together every now and again, as friends. It winds up just the two of them. Bad move. She's thinking it's innocent, he's thinking "holy ****, she wants to be alone with me. That's how guys think. Ladies, pay attention to that. Being alone with a man (outside of work), regardless of the situation, gets us thinking there's more to it than we might have thought. Especially ending up alone after being with other people the rest of the night. It doesn't matter how long you've known the guy, or whether he's married or not. Even if you don't think he's ever looked at you that way before, he will at that point. He may not even make a move. That doesn't mean he isn't thinking it, though.
> 
> It's unfortunate, but true. Don't do it. It'll get weird.
> 
> I also believe your wife did this unintentionally, and I don't believe she would have purposefully ended up in bed with him (though it's not hard to have these things get out of hand, and she could very well have, then said "uh oh" the next morning).
> 
> As I said, I put a stop (I think) to a similar situation with my wife at her work. I know she didn't look at them with THAT in mind, but I did let her in on the "secret" that THEY sure did. Would she have ended up in bed with one of them? Highly unlikely. But you never know, so I spoke up, as a man talking about how men operate.
> 
> That is how the "oh ****, what did I just do?" affairs happen. They are completely different than the "my husband/wife just doesn't give me what I need" type.
> 
> So seriously, good job on this PG13, well played. Do the same thing next time she's in Cleveland, though, just to make 100% sure. Being 99% sure is never enough when it comes to this. Trust me (and so many others here), that 1% is a bigger # than one would think. I was once 99% sure of something too... Now I don't settle for anything less than 100%.*
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bigbearsfan

PG 13, great advice. Thanks. 
weightlifter, EP turning out like facebook. My wife signed up for around dec. Anyways I never really checked into much but its like the forums here. You share a story or respond to them. And you accept friends and you can *PRIVATE MESSAGE*. 
One of the avatar pics of one to the guys she was talking to was a pair of pink panties and lets say it had a white sticky substance on them.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Interesting- just looked up the sight. I had never heard of it. Anything with private messaging is BAD NEWS. Can you check her messages?

I assume the white substance on the panties was vanilla frosting?


----------



## sandc

EP CAN be bad news if you're looking to be bad. It's where I got most of the info I needed to get into our "lifestyle". 

FYI, we are long out of that and I am long gone from EP.


----------



## bigbearsfan

Short story, It was new years day and I was home alone while she was at work. She left her Ipad on our kitchen counter and all day the damn thing just kept dinging. I went to see wtf because I don't use it much. On the lock screen it showed she had all these responses from people. 
I know the ipad pw so I got in and just pressed the EP shortcut and she had it setup for stay log on to the site. So I started exploring and I saw she liked a few other peoples stories. The one that jumped out at me that she tagged and like was tilted " *I struggle between my morals and desires!"*:scratchhead: I thinking what the hell does that mean.
Then I started searching her pm's. I noticed she has only 12 people in her circle almost split between women and men. The first message I clicked on is the one that has the panties with the man goo on it. Nothing sexual but the ****head was fishing and of course he is a single father of a daughter and she means the world to him and has been lonely and a struggle to deal with her alone. And of course she was sucking it up telling him about our daughters and joys of parenting girls.

Another douche bag that just got dumped and needed to talk to someone. Well this it the part that I got my heart trampled on and pissed me right off. 

douche bag: thanks.. just hurts.. do u have a good relationship now?
wife: Not really. Staying for the kids


Long story short, I was pissed and waited for her to come. Was lucky my girls were out with the in laws that day. 

So that's when I decided to find marriage help online and I found TAM. Now if I was armed with this info I would have handled it differently.

Sorry PG13, I dont' want to thread jack you.

Next day at work I figured out her pw to EP.. She was messaging a douche bag that must have visited out here where we live cause he mentioned a café that was here back in the 90's that is no longer here. 
He's another douche bag who just lost the love of his life on Dec. 17. He was fishing really hard with her. 
Part of the conversation was is she married and she said yes. Then he started asking about me if I am nice and go to church and crap like that.
She responds that we just had little tiff about her discussing us on the internet to strangers and had a talk about how I want to do less chatting online so he might not her from her right away if she messages him.
He responded that he was afraid I would see the conversation.
She stated that I didn't and told him details about the fight and how we as couple would try to fix things.
********* than tells her that guys from where we live can be really hot headed and like to fight because his BIL lives out this way.


Well its been a month and half since she messaged anyone on that account. Couple of these *********s continued to message her asking where was she and if she was ok. they stopped around 1/15.
I'm thinking she might have created another account or she did stop using EP. She is really big on pintrest right now so that might be what she is using all her time on.

Put anyways, I'm thinking I caught her early and stopped her from getting sucked into an EA and god forbid something more.
I have been starting to come up with my own exit plan because I am not going to be hit as soon as my youngest child who is 3 grows up and she decides to leave me or wants a divorce.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Geez BBF Sorry for your situation. You should copy and paste this into your own thread, it's just with older threads not everyone reads them and you want a full perspective.

So I wasn't clear did you confront her on the "staying for the kids" comment? You said you had a convo with her to stop chatting on the internet?

How was your relationship before? Honestly on both sides. The staying for the kids comment is horrible, but maybe she was really pissed after a fight? 

My wife is on Pinterest a lot too, harmless. From what i can see. No chat. All her pins are run of the mill chick stuff.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bigbearsfan

Sorry I forgot to add that. Yup, confronted and huge fight. Claims she thought I was only in it for the kids too. I don't know where the hell she came up with that. She stated has been lonely and needed someone to talk to and claims that she finally got my attention. Like she really had this all planned out to get my attention. 

We have had a some of fights about her being on the internet all the time and not fulfilling her mom role. 

As our marriage. Been married 13 yrs today. Had our ups and downs. Same thing with most marriages, after a while and kids, I haven't wooed her like I should have and we both haven't made time for each other the last few years. She is a RN and her schedule is she works evenings and I work during the day with different days off. So yes, we don't spend enough time together.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Been there. The biggest takeaway I've gotten (really we've both gotten) is to just make more time for each other. It's tough. We have two young children, no family in area, we both travel for work. Bit we've been making much more of an effort so that's been good.

The excuse that she did it so you would notice it excuse seems flimsy. Like my wife she probably appreciated the attention on some level. Are you satisfied that nothing is going on? Sounds like you are. And you've found nothing in a while. Just keep your radar up. 

And happy anniversary. Any plans?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Philat

BBF, that "only staying in it for the kids" comment may have been intended as a set-up to escalate the level of intimate conversation with d*****bag. PhillyGuy is wise: keep that radar up.


----------



## Chaparral

weightlifter said:


> The Reddit player post shows more info IMHO.


link?


----------



## Chaparral

bigbearsfan said:


> Sorry I forgot to add that. Yup, confronted and huge fight. Claims she thought I was only in it for the kids too. I don't know where the hell she came up with that. She stated has been lonely and needed someone to talk to and claims that she finally got my attention. Like she really had this all planned out to get my attention.
> 
> We have had a some of fights about her being on the internet all the time and not fulfilling her mom role.
> 
> As our marriage. Been married 13 yrs today. Had our ups and downs. Same thing with most marriages, after a while and kids, I haven't wooed her like I should have and we both haven't made time for each other the last few years. She is a RN and her schedule is she works evenings and I work during the day with different days off. So yes, we don't spend enough time together.


If you have to beg borrow or steal, get/ download the two books linked to below from B&N or amazon. The MMSLP book is just for you, NOT JUST FRIENDS is for you both. These books have brought many marriages back to what they are supposed to be.

Put the romance back in your marriage, never stop dating your wife.

Also, your wife is in one of the top two or three fields for cheating. another also, separate shifts for couples are toxic to marriage.


----------



## Rags

Like Chapparel said - Never stop dating your wife.

I mean, honestly, why should you, once you get married, change that dynamic? It's like a bait-and-switch (a Bad Thing (tm))

Wives, and husbands need to be dated, pursued, cherished, and not taken for granted.

Occasionally my wife will say 'it's ok, I'm a sure thing' - and that's nice to hear. But it's my job to make sure she keeps feeling that way.
A wife is not just a mother, and a husband is not just a father. They are also (and primarily) lovers.
With any luck, that's how they became parents in the first case.

'The best thing a man can do for his children is to love their mother'

Now, in this forum, these sorts of things are in many cases too late. But for some - both PG and BFF - it looks like not.

Being romantic isn't the same as being a Nice Guy. It's about being the sort of person that makes your wife go weak at the knees (and other parts.) Exactly what that entails can vary a bit depending on the woman - but generally they like assertive, confident men. 
(Not the flip side, which is aggressive and arrogant.)
Men who are attentive (but not needs)
Committed (but not insecure)

Of course, for those men for whose relationship it is too late - well, it works in the next one (once the dead one is buried.)

Time together, both with and (critically) without the children - and without electronic distractions - are an absolute must. Date nights are not optional.


----------



## weightlifter

BBF seriously start the thread dude. 

Chap, Looking for the Reddit post.

Warning SERIOUS TRIGGER!

http://www.reddit.com/r/confession/comments/x2o41/husbands_of_redditim_the_man_****ing_your_wife/

found it. Shows the psych games they use. Read between the lines too.

http://www.reddit.com/r/confession/comments/x4qx0/update_husbands_of_redditim_the_man_****ing_your/
the follow up


----------



## bigbearsfan

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Been there. The biggest takeaway I've gotten (really we've both gotten) is to just make more time for each other. It's tough. We have two young children, no family in area, we both travel for work. Bit we've been making much more of an effort so that's been good.
> 
> The excuse that she did it so you would notice it excuse seems flimsy. Like my wife she probably appreciated the attention on some level. Are you satisfied that nothing is going on? Sounds like you are. And you've found nothing in a while. Just keep your radar up.
> 
> And happy anniversary. Any plans?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We are defiantly in the same boat. Have relatives in area, but they are snowbirds and have left till may. We will have to figure out something.
I know her excuse was BS. That's why I was pissed and she should not better with my professional background and training when dealing with interrogating people. ( no I am not LE)

Radar is on high alert, I know I haven't found anything yet, Like I said, I think I might have caught and stopped it before it could bloom. But with her on the internet all the time, she might have something underground.

Thanks, nothing real special, we went out to dinner with our girls and went to a movie "lego movie" and then mommy and daddy wrestling when the girls were asleep.


----------



## bigbearsfan

Philat said:


> BBF, that "only staying in it for the kids" comment may have been intended as a set-up to escalate the level of intimate conversation with d*****bag. PhillyGuy is wise: keep that radar up.


I agree and Radar will not go down anytime soon.


----------



## bigbearsfan

Chaparral said:


> If you have to beg borrow or steal, get/ download the two books linked to below from B&N or amazon. The MMSLP book is just for you, NOT JUST FRIENDS is for you both. These books have brought many marriages back to what they are supposed to be.
> 
> Put the romance back in your marriage, never stop dating your wife.
> 
> Also, your wife is in one of the top two or three fields for cheating. another also, separate shifts for couples are toxic to marriage.


Thanks and I do agree. Books have been ordered.


----------



## bigbearsfan

Rags said:


> Like Chapparel said - Never stop dating your wife.
> 
> I mean, honestly, why should you, once you get married, change that dynamic? It's like a bait-and-switch (a Bad Thing (tm))
> 
> Wives, and husbands need to be dated, pursued, cherished, and not taken for granted.
> 
> Occasionally my wife will say 'it's ok, I'm a sure thing' - and that's nice to hear. But it's my job to make sure she keeps feeling that way.
> A wife is not just a mother, and a husband is not just a father. They are also (and primarily) lovers.
> With any luck, that's how they became parents in the first case.
> 
> 'The best thing a man can do for his children is to love their mother'
> 
> Now, in this forum, these sorts of things are in many cases too late. But for some - both PG and BFF - it looks like not.
> 
> Being romantic isn't the same as being a Nice Guy. It's about being the sort of person that makes your wife go weak at the knees (and other parts.) Exactly what that entails can vary a bit depending on the woman - but generally they like assertive, confident men.
> (Not the flip side, which is aggressive and arrogant.)
> Men who are attentive (but not needs)
> Committed (but not insecure)
> 
> Of course, for those men for whose relationship it is too late - well, it works in the next one (once the dead one is buried.)
> 
> Time together, both with and (critically) without the children - and without electronic distractions - are an absolute must. Date nights are not optional.


I agree, I know I have taken my eyes of the ball sometimes and need to focus more on little things.


----------



## bigbearsfan

weightlifter said:


> BBF seriously start the thread dude.
> 
> Chap, Looking for the Reddit post.
> 
> Warning SERIOUS TRIGGER!
> 
> Husbands of Reddit....I'm the man ****ing your wife. : confession
> 
> found it. Shows the psych games they use. Read between the lines too.
> 
> [Update] Husbands of Reddit....I'm the man ****ing your wife. : confession
> the follow up


I'm waiting to start my own when I get into the private area. Don't want certain eyes to see what my game plan and playbook details are. Yes she knows I have been looking on TAM. Just doesn't know I became a member.

I read those reddit post and the author is an assh_le.


----------



## Philat

bigbearsfan said:


> I'm waiting to start my own when I get into the private area. Don't want certain eyes to see what my game plan and playbook details are. Yes she knows I have been looking on TAM. Just doesn't know I became a member.
> 
> I read those reddit post and the author is an assh_le.


Throw her off the scent and change your username to bigpackersfan.


----------



## bigbearsfan

Philat said:


> Throw her off the scent and change your username to bigpackersfan.


I'd rather her screw 20 guys than do that............. Don't get me wrong, I love my wife....but I HATE THE F*CKING PACKERS!:lol:


----------



## PhillyGuy13

bigbearsfan said:


> Thanks, nothing real special, we went out to dinner with our girls and went to a movie "lego movie" and then mommy and daddy wrestling when the girls were asleep.


That is special. Don't sell it short (either activity). Momma bears love family activity and the alone time later was good too. And hey Lego Movie got great reviews.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## weightlifter

bigbearsfan said:


> I'm waiting to start my own when I get into the private area. Don't want certain eyes to see what my game plan and playbook details are. Yes she knows I have been looking on TAM. Just doesn't know I became a member.
> 
> I read those reddit post and the author is an assh_le.


He is but the technique is almost laid out. Insidious.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

weightlifter said:


> PIILLY. LOL. I dont have HBO. Wtf am i gonna do with the updates? Btw when is next cleve trip? (Answer in your thread)


I'll send you my HBO login 

Nothing to really update. No Cleveland trips scheduled. We will see if there is one in the fall...

Still been zero contact. No linkedin, Facebook, texts or calls.

I'm not checking constantly. I check the verizon account online once a month or so. Months ago she reactivated her iMessages on the iPad, so I view them at leisure.a

Anniversary is this week. Dinner plans. We are gong away for a week with kids in a few weeks and then alone for a weekend mid July. We've both been active on projects around the house and yard.

Sex has slowed down a bit from when we were HB to my chagrin. 1-2 a week. That part annoys me. I nag for more. Better than 1 a month but I have my needs 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Stop nagging. Women hate that. They're waiting for you to TAKE THEM.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Yes that's hit or miss. Sometimes she pushes me off, gives me the "Im too tired"
Otherwise things are good. Not complaining.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## aug

turnera said:


> Stop nagging. Women hate that. They're waiting for you to TAKE THEM.


I suppose that's may be true when you are married to them?












ha ha...


----------



## turnera

Well, yeah.


----------



## tom67

Philly
MMSLP follow it as best you can.
Jerry123 is a sahd and still gets hit on constantly.
I know he is the exception.
You are a great guy and have contributed often here sometimes we can't see the forest through the trees so to speak.
Okay I'll shut up.


----------



## davecarter

weightlifter said:


> He is but the technique is almost laid out. Insidious.


Technique.
And certain other advantages too: youth, wealth, status - all these things count.

Unless that is, you target _any _married woman (i.e. 5's and 6's) and you're not picky.

Oh, and you have a lot of time on your hands too.


So, yeah, in theory it looks easy.
In practice...ummmmm.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Sex has slowed down a bit from when we were HB to my chagrin. 1-2 a week. That part annoys me. I nag for more. Better than 1 a month but I have my needs
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Speak about it and agree on 3 times a week.

Schedule time for it, it will cost some sleep but return more in energy and health. Intimacy is the key.


----------



## jerry123

tom67 said:


> Philly
> MMSLP follow it as best you can.
> Jerry123 is a sahd and still gets hit on constantly.
> I know he is the exception.
> You are a great guy and have contributed often here sometimes we can't see the forest through the trees so to speak.
> Okay I'll shut up.


The more i work out the more i get hit on...LOL


Now it's spring and hot out i've built a nice tan to go along with muscles. My wife loves it, sex has gone up to 2-3 times a week and one weekend it was 4X in 2 days.

And damn, the grocery stores are where i get hit on the most. One woman even followed me a few aisles and wrote her number down, gave it to me, i said i'm flattered but married, she said I..Don't..Care. Walked away. I showed the number to my wife, she promptly ripped it up and that night had crazy sex.


----------



## happyman64

jerry123 said:


> The more i work out the more i get hit on...LOL
> 
> 
> Now it's spring and hot out i've built a nice tan to go along with muscles. My wife loves it, sex has gone up to 2-3 times a week and one weekend it was 4X in 2 days.
> 
> And damn, the grocery stores are where i get hit on the most. One woman even followed me a few aisles and wrote her number down, gave it to me, i said i'm flattered but married, she said I..Don't..Care. Walked away. I showed the number to my wife, she promptly ripped it up and that night had crazy sex.


Keep torturing her Jerry.

Your wife obviously loves it.

Maybe you can rent your next beach house next to some sorority girls!!!


----------



## jerry123

happyman64 said:


> Keep torturing her Jerry.
> 
> Your wife obviously loves it.
> 
> Maybe you can rent your next beach house next to some sorority girls!!!


ha!!!

I am going to myrtle beach next month. Got a condo on beach...can't wait to see who our neighbors are.

Funny thing is, since my sex rank is obviously higher than my wifes, she has started doing situps and i've asked her to firm up her arms so she lifts 5 lb barbells everyday. Best thing for me is, in the coming years, hers will naturally stay the same or go down. I'm in my prime for at least 5 years.


----------



## jerry123

tom67 said:


> Philly
> MMSLP follow it as best you can.
> Jerry123 is a sahd and still gets hit on constantly.
> I know he is the exception.
> You are a great guy and have contributed often here sometimes we can't see the forest through the trees so to speak.
> Okay I'll shut up.


Oh, and to add...when getting hit on, a woman does not ask me what i do for work. It's usually a smile and a "hi", while getting looked over from head to toe...

The kicker is when i have told a few woman what i do they turn to mush in my hands. They are like "oh wow, thats awesome." with a great big smile knowing if i can handle two kids, a house, and all the yard work then i can handle anything. 

I have one mom on my daughters softball team that kept taking pics of me. She would pretend to take pics of her daughter but i could tell when her daughter was not near me she still had her camera aimed at me. She's always smiling at me and touched my arm and shoulders many times. She's divorced but has a BF, she knows i'm married. She's light skinned african american and both her ex husband and current bf are white, so she goes for the white dudes...


----------



## convert

great workjerry123

be careful don't get caught speeding


----------



## tom67

happyman64 said:


> Keep torturing her Jerry.
> 
> Your wife obviously loves it.
> 
> Maybe you can rent your next beach house next to some sorority girls!!!


Yeah that's a marriage builder.
Actually it might be a good thing your wife will be pleasing you every way possible so you don't leave the beach house.


----------



## happyman64

Good for you Jerry. Please leave a pile a crapola in your neighbors tractor next time you see him. Have a fun beach vacation this summer. You deserve it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jerry123

happyman64 said:


> Good for you Jerry. Please leave a pile a 💩 in your neighbors tractor next time you see him. Have a fun beach vacation this summer. You deserve it!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ha!! I see him in his yard once in a while but I just drive by. He's looking like crap. Big belly and sloppy clothes. 

Thanks, I will enjoy my vaca.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

jerry123 said:


> Ha!! I see him in his yard once in a while but I just drive by. He's looking like crap. Big belly and sloppy clothes.
> 
> Thanks, I will enjoy my vaca.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:smthumbup::rofl:
Have fun bro.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

So last week a member here PMed me to see how things were going. Everything seemed (and is) OK.

Then did my usual sweep of accounts. It had been a few weeks. emails, Facebook, iPad, phone. LinkedIn.

Discovered on July 30 OM sent wife a Linkedin connection request:

"Kurt":

Hey AP I hope the job and personal stuff is all going well - Busy times in my new gig but figured I would drop you a note. Keep in touch and if I can ever help with anything let me know.

- Kurt

Quoted verbatim . (AP is her initials/nickname)

This was last Wednesday that I found it. I immediately checked her iPad- she saw the message and deleted it. It came up when I finger swipe searched the iPad. She read and deleted the email. Trash emptied when I went to pull the email up on iPad, but i got it through her linkedin anyway.

Now, his LinkedIn request is still sitting out there. She hasn't responded. She did go on LinkedIn herself 3/4 days ago and updated her skills and picture. No messages sent or received.

Then spent 3 days hiking mountains in NH. Haven't said anything and don't plan on it. Did take screenshots and emailed them to myself, I don't want to alert her to my vigilance over this. But I'm pissed she didn't tell me he contacted her, especially since just the week prior we had a convo and she said there has been no contact. One of my friends said she didn't tell me to spare me the drama. Maybe. Like I said not going to mention it, since it then blows my cover.

Now, there is now way she would accept his request, since I'm connected to her it would show up in my feed. So it's just sitting there. His message seems to confirm there hasn't been contact in a long while. His use of the phrase "personal stuff" is interesting, though I could be reading into it. If I was innocently sending a former colleague a message, I'd have written "family" instead of "personal stuff"

No - she has no trips to Cleveland scheduled as of now. We will see when November rolls around again if there is a meeting out there. I was hoping to NOT Have to worry about a PI but it looks like I better start saving my pennies again.

Here's the thing. I've told her if anything happens, one of us is out the door. And maybe it's all my time on here. If it happens it happens. It almost feels business like. Not nearly the anxiety of last year. I almost feel like whatever- f--k it. Tired of worrying about it.

Anyway just venting. Not really looking for advice per se. Keeping eyes peeled while continuing to play dumb husband.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

PhillyGuy13 said:


> So last week a member here PMed me to see how things were going. Everything seemed (and is) OK.
> 
> Then did my usual sweep of accounts. It had been a few weeks. emails, Facebook, iPad, phone. LinkedIn.
> 
> Discovered on July 30 OM sent wife a Linkedin connection request:
> 
> "Kurt":
> 
> Hey AP I hope the job and personal stuff is all going well - Busy times in my new gig but figured I would drop you a note. Keep in touch and if I can ever help with anything let me know.
> 
> - Kurt
> 
> Quoted verbatim . (AP is her initials/nickname)
> 
> This was last Wednesday that I found it. I immediately checked her iPad- she saw the message and deleted it. It came up when I finger swipe searched the iPad. She read and deleted the email. Trash emptied when I went to pull the email up on iPad, but i got it through her linkedin anyway.
> 
> Now, his LinkedIn request is still sitting out there. She hasn't responded. She did go on LinkedIn herself 3/4 days ago and updated her skills and picture. No messages sent or received.
> 
> Then spent 3 days hiking mountains in NH. Haven't said anything and don't plan on it. Did take screenshots and emailed them to myself, I don't want to alert her to my vigilance over this. But I'm pissed she didn't tell me he contacted her, especially since just the week prior we had a convo and she said there has been no contact. One of my friends said she didn't tell me to spare me the drama. Maybe. Like I said not going to mention it, since it then blows my cover.
> 
> Now, there is now way she would accept his request, since I'm connected to her it would show up in my feed. So it's just sitting there. His message seems to confirm there hasn't been contact in a long while. His use of the phrase "personal stuff" is interesting, though I could be reading into it. If I was innocently sending a former colleague a message, I'd have written "family" instead of "personal stuff"
> 
> No - she has no trips to Cleveland scheduled as of now. We will see when November rolls around again if there is a meeting out there. I was hoping to NOT Have to worry about a PI but it looks like I better start saving my pennies again.
> 
> Here's the thing. I've told her if anything happens, one of us is out the door. And maybe it's all my time on here. If it happens it happens. It almost feels business like. Not nearly the anxiety of last year. I almost feel like whatever- f--k it. Tired of worrying about it.
> 
> Anyway just venting. Not really looking for advice per se. Keeping eyes peeled while continuing to play dumb husband.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hmm:scratchhead:
For now I will go with what your friend said and she didn't want the drama.
As long as she doesn't respond.


----------



## Lostinthought61

I agree with you, say nothing but continue to be vigilant. on a lighter note
Did you hit the presidential range in the white mountains...i have done them all of them several times....and did you hit Sabbath Day Falls off the Kang?


----------



## bandit.45

You have a right to be pissed that she didn't tell you, but she's scared you'd leave her, even if she was not the instigator. 

Keep an eye on it. Sucks that this came up again and you have to deal with all that garbage...again.


----------



## Q tip

Well, good, bad or ugly, communication is best. I think friends are right about avoiding drama, but the point is to communicate. 

Give her time, she'll say something. Remember, she may be outraged too and does not want to upset you. The contact is not her fault, but how she handles it is her responsibility. 

Vigilance - as you've recommended yourself.

The prick seems to be fishing, though. That's his problem not hers.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Nope we hiked Franconia notch mountains- Lafayette, Little haystack and parts of Mt Liberty.

It was the first outdoorsy thing I've ever done and I kept up with all my jock friends. Camped, fire, cigars and whisky. So was proud of myself, even though they aren't the highest mountains and it's August as opposed to January.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Nope we hiked Franconia notch mountains- Lafayette, Little haystack and parts of Mt Liberty.
> 
> It was the first outdoorsy thing I've ever done and I kept up with all my jock friends. Camped, fire, cigars and whisky. So was proud of myself, even though they aren't the highest mountains and it's August as opposed to January.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Next step...get on this show.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

turnera said:


> Next step...get on this show.


Lol I did get chastised for wearing shoes in the tent and leaving food out. So long way to go! But surprisingly I had a really good time. I usually camp at Marriotts and Hilton's.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Yeswecan

Phillyguy13,

Does not want the drama? Let me say this...if she wants your trust back she should have immediately shown you the Linked In contact. You requested she advise contact. Your trust in her would have been returned if she had shown the contact. Currently she is hiding this. Married couples do not hide anything...no matter the drama it might generate. 

My wife as contacted on FB by a old dope of a BF. You know...be my friend on FB. More than likely fishing. Anyway, she saw it and told me immediately. Said she hides nothing. This builds trust. The Not Now button was pressed. We move on secure in our future. Your wife should have done the same in my opinion.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Yup she should have. Thus my annoyance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Openminded

He's fishing. And she didn't tell you. I don't agree she didn't tell you because she just didn't want the drama. I'm sure she didn't want drama but she presumably knows she has to say if there's any contact whether that brings drama or not. 

You have nothing but time so you are right to take it easy and monitor.


----------



## SadSamIAm

If your wife travels for work and so does the OM, then they could probably arrange to meet in virtually any city. Especially if he is the boss and sets his own schedule. Doesn't sound like they are communicating though from the Linkedin messages, but if they start, you should worry about more than just Cleveland.


----------



## Chaparral

I don't think they work for the same company anymore is that right?

Did you have a clear understanding that she was to inform you if he contacted her again? Also, did this ever get so far as to send a no contact letter?


----------



## BobSimmons

No no no.

It's lying by omission. Don't dress it up to be anything other than because it's a slippery slope from here on in.

I think it's very clear. If he contacts again, tell me. The source of so much trouble and angst, the request is very simple. Tell me. Be honest with me. And yet she isn't.

That request is like a memento. A keepsake, because she could have easily rejected the request and you might never have found out but she keeps it around, why? Because she still has a soft spot for him? The same reason she's not telling you?

I really don't buy this she didn't want to rock the boat, because she really did nothing wrong, she didn't reach out to OM, he did to her, but what happens after that is all her.

So essentially you're back to square one. Investigating, mistrusting, is this the rest of your life?


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

I understand why you didn't ask her about the OM fishing on FB for her. Why give her notice on a message that she hasn't responded to(yet).

How ever, if the subjuct of trust, etc., comes up in the near future, I would out right tell her what you expect.

If the OM, or any other man contacts you for an non-work related thing. I EXPECT to be told about it.

If I ever find out the you have in the future, or HAD IN THE PAST been contacted and you don't tell me... It's not going to end well.

Here's your only chance. I will not get mad at you. If someone(OM) has contacted you to connect on a personal level, I need to know.

If you got/get contacted, it's not your fault.

If you don't tell me about it, IT IS your fault.

Lay it all out, remind her of the consequences and tell her that you won't get mad at her.

If she tells you about the FB contact, great. Tell her that you understand why she was affraid to tell you about it as not to hurt you, but that not telling you about would hurt much more. Thank you and just be honest from here on out.

If she doesn't tell you... Well she's either still too afraid of what you reaction will be, or...


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Yup- all contact is to be reported.

they no longer work together. She travels rarely for work- 2-3 overnight trips a year. His travel schedule? No idea. New job with new company. International banking position. I'm sure there is travel involved.

No, a no-contact letter was not sent. I didn't want to give him ammunition to pursue my wife when she was out there.

GP- agree I need to have that conversation (again) though not right now, so soon after the linkedin request, would raise too many suspicions that I'm monitoring her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tobyboy

This was bound to happen!! I'm just very surprise that it took this long for him to make contact. 
As far as you know, the "OM" doesn't know about you confronting your W about the inappropriate messages... Right? So why did he stop contacting your W? 
Or....maybe he does know!!! Maybe your W did let him know that you read their messages. Maybe she told him not to contact her. 

To me, the new message implies that they did talk about you confronting(hence the "personal stuff"). 
That's why she deleted the message!! She knows that you would have questioned her about what he meant by "personal stuff".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

Does she still have the "Albany College" pajama pants? That would be a trigger.

That first post showed what a battering ram he was using on her bedroom door and she seemed to welcome it.

Bringing up the Linkin now would seem insecure on your part. Do you believe that MMSLP type strategy can get you in the position that Jerry is in?


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Haha no the pajama pants were in the trash within 24 hours.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## seasalt

*wifes texts while she was on the road.*

The adjustment to her linked in profile could very well be a subtle acknowledgement of his posting. 

I could never understand why people don't want to confront or have their spouse know they are suspicious of them after a betrayal. Would you rather she thought your trust in her was restored when you know it will never return to what it was or would you want her to know that you check and have good reason to do so? Sitting on this information can only be corrosive to yourself and your relationship.

Seasalt


----------



## PhillyGuy13

She will know I'm watching, and watching everything. Don't want her having that knowledge at the moment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## kenmoore14217

Granted I'm not a technological wizard but when people go into my linkedin account I know who they are. How are you keeping it secret?


----------



## PhillyGuy13

I can log in as her at will. I know her password. She doesn't know that though.

You mean when people view your profile?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PhillyGuy13

I like Groundpounder's convo suggestion. Just have to have a cooling off period first.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Q tip

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Yup- all contact is to be reported.
> 
> they no longer work together. She travels rarely for work- 2-3 overnight trips a year. His travel schedule? No idea. New job with new company. International banking position. I'm sure there is travel involved.
> 
> No, a no-contact letter was not sent. I didn't want to give him ammunition to pursue my wife when she was out there.
> 
> GP- agree I need to have that conversation (again) though not right now, so soon after the linkedin request, would raise too many suspicions that I'm monitoring her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Of course the prick has not yet been notified he's a jerk by anyone, so his behavior should be expected. 

Perhaps when she tells you, she should then demand he stop harassing her. Possibly copy his new HR dept? Then she should tell her friends he's a prick. Perhaps they've been tolerating the same crap.


----------



## thummper

Sorry, Philly. I had hoped that this would have all been settled and that she would have treated this more seriously. Don't understand why she wouldn't have informed you of his fishing. Not looking good.


----------



## LongWalk

Philly guy have you read Jerry123's thread?

Bagdon's?


----------



## Finder

thummper said:


> Sorry, Philly. I had hoped that this would have all been settled and that she would have treated this more seriously. Don't understand why she wouldn't have informed you of his fishing. Not looking good.


Yeah, that's a little worrying. She hasn't done anything to let Kurt know that he's crossed the line, not a single thing.


----------



## davecarter

PhillyGuy13 said:


> So last week a member here PMed me to see how things were going. Everything seemed (and is) OK.
> 
> Then did my usual sweep of accounts. It had been a few weeks. emails, Facebook, iPad, phone. LinkedIn.
> 
> Discovered on July 30 OM sent wife a Linkedin connection request:
> 
> "Kurt":
> 
> Hey AP I hope the job and personal stuff is all going well - Busy times in my new gig but figured I would drop you a note. Keep in touch and if I can ever help with anything let me know.
> 
> - Kurt
> 
> Quoted verbatim . (AP is her initials/nickname)
> 
> This was last Wednesday that I found it. I immediately checked her iPad- she saw the message and deleted it. It came up when I finger swipe searched the iPad. She read and deleted the email. Trash emptied when I went to pull the email up on iPad, but i got it through her linkedin anyway.
> 
> Now, his LinkedIn request is still sitting out there. She hasn't responded. She did go on LinkedIn herself 3/4 days ago and updated her skills and picture. No messages sent or received.
> 
> Then spent 3 days hiking mountains in NH. Haven't said anything and don't plan on it. Did take screenshots and emailed them to myself, I don't want to alert her to my vigilance over this. But I'm pissed she didn't tell me he contacted her, especially since just the week prior we had a convo and she said there has been no contact. One of my friends said she didn't tell me to spare me the drama. Maybe. Like I said not going to mention it, since it then blows my cover.
> 
> Now, there is now way she would accept his request, since I'm connected to her it would show up in my feed. So it's just sitting there. His message seems to confirm there hasn't been contact in a long while. His use of the phrase "personal stuff" is interesting, though I could be reading into it. If I was innocently sending a former colleague a message, I'd have written "family" instead of "personal stuff"
> 
> No - she has no trips to Cleveland scheduled as of now. We will see when November rolls around again if there is a meeting out there. I was hoping to NOT Have to worry about a PI but it looks like I better start saving my pennies again.
> 
> Here's the thing. I've told her if anything happens, one of us is out the door. And maybe it's all my time on here. If it happens it happens. It almost feels business like. Not nearly the anxiety of last year. I almost feel like whatever- f--k it. Tired of worrying about it.
> 
> Anyway just venting. Not really looking for advice per se. Keeping eyes peeled while continuing to play dumb husband.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Interesting, huh?
Could be something, could be nothing.

Philly, is there _anything_, at all, within your marriage that could remotely be lacking that your wife would contemplate an affair if she was pushed hard enough?

I've re-read some of your original thread and from what I can see, when you asked your wife about Kurt's initial drunken-text, she mentioned she felt nothing for him and she was grossed out by what was a very light proposition.

You also wrote:
_"So I've barely slept for two weeks. Two nights ago we are at her parents. It was still eating at me. Again I got the I would never jeopardize our family speech. I said then comply with my request and don't see him anymore. She said fine! But it's like you don't trust me!!
And she is right. I don't."_
Philly - what is it, that tells you this, specifically about your wife? There must be something that would suggest there is a aprt of her you don't or didn’t trust.

Kurt sounds like he definitely pushes boundaries and is very patient and persistent - have you any evidence to suggest he is also a serial cheat/sexual-predator....or just an opportunist?
He probably still has something for your wife (you said he is_ ‘He is 41, divorced with kid, balding, not great shape. He has girlfriend in late 20s, blonde. Very HOT...so I don't know what he wants with my wife'_)
I can tell you this much: women will see that as, at least, flattering that he has diverted his attention to them.
Men have egos...Women are attention-wh0ress.
What could/would your wife see in him?

However, I will end this post with your following quote from January this year:


PhillyGuy13 said:


> We did had a long talk about boundaries last night. I was pleased she told me that he called and I let her know that. I told her if he calls again I expect her to tell him to never contact her again. She agreed.


Kurt has contacted her 7 months later.
Your wife didn’t tell you.
Why do you think she didn't?


----------



## workindad

It may be and hopefully is nothing.

The part that I see as a concern is that she took deliberate actions- read the message and deleted it- then did not tell you about it. 

She did not do that to protect you.

This was a chance for her to continue to rebuild with you and keep her end of the bargain. She made the choice not to and elected to hide it from you which means she has no trouble continuing to lie to you since she agreed to disclose such contact a week prior. Boundary crossed.

Do you have a VAR in her car? 

Good luck.
wd


----------



## LongWalk

The contact attempt by Kurt was fishing at some level. Philly's wife may not be interested in Kurt now. He is after all far away. The problem really is whether she is in love with him. Does she desire him. Does he feel admired and respected by her.

A man's stock goes up and down in his wife's eyes based on all sorts factors, some beyond his control. If a man has bad breath he can brush his teeth. If there is a rotting wisdom tooth, he can get it pulled. If he loses his job because his employer contracts its work force, he may not be able to solve the problem quickly. He may not find a job at the same pay level.

At the end of the day, there needs to be some sort of chemistry, some deeper affection. Sometimes we cannot get people to love us the way we want to be loved. We can only be happy and hope they love us for whom we are.

The EA or maybe it was PA with Kurt is not actual in Philly's day-to-day life. 

How fulfilling does he find their marriage? What would his wife say if asked the question?


----------



## PhillyGuy13

VAR went back in car this week.

Yes I have trust issues. No, before the November incident she never gave me reason not to trust her. Her actions since have been slightly suspect. I had a GF And good friend in college that were sleeping around behind my back. Also have friends who cheat very easily. So I tend to go with my gut with these things because it can happen to anyone (as we see here on TAM)

Our marriage before and in spite of all this was pretty good. Sex life was lacking a year ago but much better now. Yes we quibble- she spends a bit too much, I tend to get impatient with the kids. She wants a dog, I want to wait on that lol. Minor stuff IMO.

This was a guy that supported her career one of her only managers to truly do so in the 10-12 years at the bank. Even when we worked together, she consistently had the highest numbers but was lowest paid. Female in mid 20s, not a lot of experience, in a good ol boys network. This guy came along and promoted her, supported her. Finally she had a manager that supported her career. And now I accuse him of having ulterior motives (I believe he did). So in a way I'm invalidating her career and hardwork by accusing him of wanting her/ basically I'm saying he was promoting her because of his desire for her, not that she actually deserved it. (She did and was long overdue for a promotion, but I think he did it for he wrong reasons, the fact that she deserved it was beside the point). She maintained he was drunk and nothing would have happened.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## kenmoore14217

"She maintained he was drunk and nothing would have happened."

This would not give me a warm fuzy!! So, if he didn't drink (?) what would be the boundaries?


----------



## Philat

Hey, Philly,

I think Toby is right--the "personal stuff" is the previous drama surrounding your W and Kurt and your reaction to it. She must have told him about it.

To me it doesn't sound like she is especially glad to have heard from him--probably would just as soon not have. But she still doesn't get that the minidrama that might occur if she told you about this contact is nothing compared to the drama that hiding it from you could cause.


----------



## workindad

He is not in position now to "support your wife's career". 

His intentions, promoting and supporting a deserving employee were called into question by his own actions. Not yours. If any invalidation of her success at the bank occurred. He was responsible for that with the inappropriate texts. Do not take ownership of his actions. 

The part that is conserning is her complete willingness to defend him and hide this from you. Your previously tankin sex life, did that coincide time wise with his messages and attention to her?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hicks

In the past, you opened the door for her to get personally close to another man where she discussed her personal stuff (meaning her dissatisfaction in her marriage to you most likely).

Have YOU closed that door? You list three ways that you are making her unhappy. 1. Complaining about her spending. This is not a small issue. 2. Impatient with the kids. Again, not a small issue. 3. Wants a dog.... I don't know.

You have to remove the things you are doing that cause her dissatisfaction. #1 and #2 were certainly things that greatly harmed my marriage.


----------



## murphy5

davecarter said:


> Kurt has contacted her 7 months later.
> Your wife didn’t tell you.
> Why do you think she didn't?




This is the sort of stuff that drives me nutz about women. They say something, you think it is an agreement about some altercation, and a few months later it has evaporated from their memory. A good gaslighter will try to tell you it never happened, there WAS no agreement she remembers. 

Maybe, maybe not (as far as her actually remembering). But something as important as NC with an OM...I would put that IN WRITING with a date and her initials...maybe even hang it from a cork board in the kitchen...

There is no excuse for forgetting something as serious as this.


----------



## turnera

davecarter said:


> Kurt has contacted her 7 months later.
> Your wife didn’t tell you.
> Why do you think she didn't?


I'm not a cheater. But I can imagine why she didn't tell him. She KNOWS he's going to have A reaction and even if he were to praise her for telling him, she would STILL have to go through his heightened emotions around the whole thing, all over again, and it's taken 7 months for things to smooth out again. Heightened emotions = stress on her, feeling bad. And human nature tells her that the easiest way to handle this (not knowing he's still snooping) is to delete the contact and pretend it never happened.


----------



## Yeswecan

PhillyGuy13 said:


> VAR went back in car this week.
> 
> Yes I have trust issues. No, before the November incident she never gave me reason not to trust her. Her actions since have been slightly suspect. I had a GF And good friend in college that were sleeping around behind my back. Also have friends who cheat very easily. So I tend to go with my gut with these things because it can happen to anyone (as we see here on TAM) Your history with friends and family I can understand the caution and trust issues. I got the crappy end of the stick from my fiance'. Took a long time to trust another.
> 
> Our marriage before and in spite of all this was pretty good. Sex life was lacking a year ago but much better now. Yes we quibble- she spends a bit too much, I tend to get impatient with the kids. She wants a dog, I want to wait on that lol. Minor stuff IMO. These are not minor. Specifically with the spending and impatience with the kids. As far as a dog. They become a wonderful addition to the home and family. At least in my world. As far as the spending, she makes money, yes? IMO she should be allowed to spend as she sees fit as long as the bills are met. Learn to be patient with the kids. Short fuses do not work well in any situation.
> 
> This was a guy that supported her career one of her only managers to truly do so in the 10-12 years at the bank. Even when we worked together, she consistently had the highest numbers but was lowest paid. Female in mid 20s, not a lot of experience, in a good ol boys network. This guy came along and promoted her, supported her. Finally she had a manager that supported her career. And now I accuse him of having ulterior motives (I believe he did). I believe you are right and it was moving in that direction. Perhaps your wife did not see this. Me being a male see the writing on the wall in big neon colors.
> 
> 
> So in a way I'm invalidating her career and hardwork by accusing him of wanting her/ basically I'm saying he was promoting her because of his desire for her, not that she actually deserved it. Look at the facts. He was let go. She retained her job at the same firm. That tells me they value her as an employee. Why was her boss fired? Figures not there? Spent to much time on the bottle while at the conferences?
> 
> 
> (She did and was long overdue for a promotion, but I think he did it for he wrong reasons, the fact that she deserved it was beside the point). She maintained he was drunk and nothing would have happened. Here is the issue for me. She is out with a man drinking at a bar. I'm sorry, in my world as well as my wife's this does does not happen. I do not go to bars with GF drinking buddies/coworkers. Never would I put myself in a situation that could promote impropriety. My wife reciprocates the same. For me she was on the wrong path with going to the bar and having a great time with a male coworker. That type of activity is for you and she to have. I almost view this a BF/GF relationship not coworkers business relationship. Would it have been swell if she came home and you suggested to go for a few drinks and see what happens to which she says, "No thanks just had a good drinking time with the boss. I'm relaxing today." You are there holding the bag as her energies were directed to OM. For me, work is work and not a time to experience good times with others that I should very well be spending with my wife. Just the way I view our world.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## thummper

Actually, Turnera, that scenario sounds very reasonable. I hope that you're correct.


----------



## Yeswecan

turnera said:


> I'm not a cheater. But I can imagine why she didn't tell him. She KNOWS he's going to have A reaction and even if he were to praise her for telling him, she would STILL have to go through his heightened emotions around the whole thing, all over again, and it's taken 7 months for things to smooth out again. Heightened emotions = stress on her, feeling bad. And human nature tells her that the easiest way to handle this (not knowing he's still snooping) is to delete the contact and pretend it never happened.



Phillyguy made a simple request. Advise if there is contact. She did not. She will create more stress for her as a result of the witholding. The secrecy and the soon to come lie about it will create more drama than simply letting PG13 know there was contact. This is something she created.....DRAMA. PG13 has created nothing.


----------



## turnera

I understand that. But remember that SHE didn't come here and get 'schooled' in all things Cheater. She doesn't see the logic behind why it's needed. She's going off of wanting to keep the marriage, keep him from being stressed, and not being pummeled emotionally. She likely has never been educated in why 100% honesty is now the rule of the day, she saw it as some vague need he has that she didn't understand, and so she made an executive decision, since she has no intention of ever contacting this guy again and just wants it to go away. At least she didn't contact the dude (even to just tell him to leave her alone) and THEN not tell PG.


----------



## jerry123

Well one thing for sure is you got lucky that convo came up on iPad. I would def see that would have led to a PA. 

I was in similar situation with a woman fishing me. Our kids are same age so she would text me for a play date last year. We did a few and I began to notice her texting me about non kid related things. Then at one point she basically hinted towards having an affair with me. I shot it down with some clever answers and I figured she was done. But alas 6-7 months later she was fishing again. 

To keep the drama out I basically deleted her texts so my wife would not see them. Heck yeah, the attention was nice but I have boundaries. I wasnt trying to hide things from my wife. Just figured why throw gas on the fire. This woman now knows not to text me anymore. 

I agree, your wife should not be drinking with a guy. Liquor can be a disaster while she is away on trip without you. I would tell her it's not acceptable to be drinking with a guy on trips. Case closed. If she objects then things need to be pointed out. 

Biggest red flag was her making sure ipad did not pop up texts where you can see them. And her not explaining in those texts to him that his convo was a no-no. She kept feeding him while he fished. Which means she enjoyed it. 

I would tell her, everytime he contacts her you need to know. You won't be pissed at all if she tells you. You'd be more pissed if she does not. 

Then, if it happens again and you find out she deleted then Present evidence and there has to be consiquences.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## weightlifter

turnera said:


> Next step...get on this show.


Naw. Put him and some hottie on Naked and afraid!

Interesting. Looks like Kurt was fishing again.

Agree. Keep your mouth shut and eyes open.

Im thinking the same. He fished and she went, "Oh SH!T" not wanting drama and she did not respond.

Do your digilgence. Remember the vecro gets soft on hot days. Make sure its still secure.


----------



## Q tip

jerry123 said:


> Well one thing for sure is you got lucky that convo came up on iPad. I would def see that would have led to a PA.
> 
> I was in similar situation with a woman fishing me. Our kids are same age so she would text me for a play date last year. We did a few and I began to notice her texting me about non kid related things. Then at one point she basically hinted towards having an affair with me. I shot it down with some clever answers and I figured she was done. But alas 6-7 months later she was fishing again.
> 
> To keep the drama out I basically deleted her texts so my wife would not see them. Heck yeah, the attention was nice but I have boundaries. I wasnt trying to hide things from my wife. Just figured why throw gas on the fire. This woman now knows not to text me anymore.
> 
> I agree, your wife should not be drinking with a guy. Liquor can be a disaster while she is away on trip without you. I would tell her it's not acceptable to be drinking with a guy on trips. Case closed. If she objects then things need to be pointed out.
> 
> Biggest red flag was her making sure ipad did not pop up texts where you can see them. And her not explaining in those texts to him that his convo was a no-no. She kept feeding him while he fished. Which means she enjoyed it.
> 
> I would tell her, everytime he contacts her you need to know. You won't be pissed at all if she tells you. You'd be more pissed if she does not.
> 
> Then, if it happens again and you find out she deleted then Present evidence and there has to be consiquences.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I see your point and agree in most cases. In this one, it's a bit harsh. Keep in mind TAM folks are a bit jaded with various experiences. TAM assumes guilt until proven maybe a bit not almost guilty due to lack of affirmative evidence that something did not, has not and will not happen.

Proving a negative is like sex with condors... Kind of rare.


----------



## Yeswecan

turnera said:


> I understand that. But remember that SHE didn't come here and get 'schooled' in all things Cheater. She doesn't see the logic behind why it's needed. She's going off of wanting to keep the marriage, keep him from being stressed, and not being pummeled emotionally. She likely has never been educated in why 100% honesty is now the rule of the day, she saw it as some vague need he has that she didn't understand, and so she made an executive decision, since she has no intention of ever contacting this guy again and just wants it to go away. At least she didn't contact the dude (even to just tell him to leave her alone) and THEN not tell PG.


Schooled? Phillyguys13 request of being transparent and forthcoming if contact is made requires no schooling It is not an extreme request of PG13. The logic here is call honesty no matter the consequences. Honesty is always the rule of the day and does not require education. Phillyguy13 did not ask for his wife to go on a binge with the boss with subsequent text messages that get deleted once found out. If she wants it to go away and get the trust back in the relationship then honoring the request of Phillyguy13 to advise when contact is made will help in doing that. As of now not advising Phillyguy is creating more needless stress in her life. Quite possibly eat away at her until she spills it. IMO executive decisions concerning this relationship with the now xboss are left to Phillyguy13. 

It is yet to be seen if she contact the OM and advise to take a long walk off a short pier. For now it is smoldering in LinkedIn.


----------



## Q tip

Yeswecan said:


> Schooled? Phillyguys13 request of being transparent and forthcoming if contact is made requires no schooling It is not an extreme request of PG13. The logic here is call honesty no matter the consequences. Honesty is always the rule of the day and does not require education. Phillyguy13 did not ask for his wife to go on a binge with the boss with subsequent text messages that get deleted once found out. If she wants it to go away and get the trust back in the relationship then honoring the request of Phillyguy13 to advise when contact is made will help in doing that. As of now not advising Phillyguy is creating more needless stress in her life. Quite possibly eat away at her until she spills it. IMO executive decisions concerning this relationship with the now xboss are left to Phillyguy13.
> 
> It is yet to be seen if she contact the OM and advise to take a long walk off a short pier. For now it is smoldering in LinkedIn.


Yep, and it seems PGs W nature is non-confrontational. That appears consistent throughout. The PI confirms NC. So her actions are excellent. She remains non-confrontational thinking a no response to the Prick will make him go away. 

I am sure PG is all ready to go caveman with this as many wish. But trust PG he knows her far better than any of us. While major in many folks minds, I really feel his W wants it to go away again with non-confrontational means. 

Yes,,she should have said something, so she would see PG's excellent supportive side. The "us against the evils of the world" stand. Be patient. She will get to experience this with PG, as soon as she overcomes her fears. Then she'll realize it is an "us" thing not just her issue. 

Boundaries are non-negotiable. Soon enough, Kurt/Prick will be flushed out of their lives. But to PGs and his W satisfaction, not ours.


----------



## Yeswecan

Q tip said:


> Yep, and it seems PGs W nature is non-confrontational. That appears consistent throughout. The PI confirms NC. So her actions are excellent. She remains non-confrontational thinking a no response to the Prick will make him go away.
> 
> I am sure PG is all ready to go caveman with this as many wish. But trust PG he knows her far better than any of us. While major in many folks minds, I really feel his W wants it to go away again with non-confrontational means.
> 
> Yes,,she should have said something, so she would see PG's excellent supportive side. The "us against the evils of the world" stand. Be patient. She will get to experience this with PG, as soon as she overcomes her fears. Then she'll realize it is an "us" thing not just her issue.
> 
> Boundaries are non-negotiable. Soon enough, Kurt/Prick will be flushed out of their lives. But to PGs and his W satisfaction, not ours.


:smthumbup:


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Wife's texts while she was on the road.*



turnera said:


> I'm not a cheater. But I can imagine why she didn't tell him. She KNOWS he's going to have A reaction and even if he were to praise her for telling him, she would STILL have to go through his heightened emotions around the whole thing, all over again, and it's taken 7 months for things to smooth out again. Heightened emotions = stress on her, feeling bad. And human nature tells her that the easiest way to handle this (not knowing he's still snooping) is to delete the contact and pretend it never happened.


My question is why does he still need to snoop? Shouldn't there be transparency? If there were transparency then this situation wouldn't have occurred because they both would have seen and known about the communication. Philly, why don't you have all her passwords? Why don't you have access to everything? My wife and I have never had to deal with infidelity in our marriage but we still have complete and total openness.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

> So in a way I'm invalidating her career and hardwork by accusing him of wanting her/ basically I'm saying he was promoting her because of his desire for her, not that she actually deserved it.


IS this something she said? This is a weird direction to go, when it occurred basically after he was gone. If it ended up this way early in her career, I could see your logic. It took him getting removed or leaving, for him to push the boundaries, it doesn't invalidate her hard work. Let it go or have a talk. You keep chasing YOU are going to be the one who needs counseling.

She didn't contact him and there hasn't been further contact.


----------



## turnera

bfree said:


> My question is why does he still need to snoop? Shouldn't there be transparency? If there were transparency then this situation wouldn't have occurred because they both would have seen and known about the communication. Philly, why don't you have all her passwords? Why don't you have access to everything? My wife and I have never had to deal with infidelity in our marriage but we still have complete and total openness.


I completely agree. It's time, soon, for him to have this talk.


----------



## Chaparral

Maybe you could tell her you feel the need to go over boundaries again. Mention what she has agreed to and ask her if she understands and if she has any questions. This will give her another opportunity to come clean or lie through her teeth.

The thing is, this is part of the script for affair partners to start fishing after being caught and letting things settle down and then try to hook up again.

He may know she will be coming to his town in the fall. There are many ways she could have answered this contact without you knowing about it. Hasn't she already tried to hide the message and then break her word about revealing any contact.

That total transparency isn't in effect is just wrong.


----------



## Yeswecan

phillybeffandswiss said:


> IS this something she said? This is a weird direction to go, when it occurred basically after he was gone. If it ended up this way early in her career, I could see your logic. It took him getting removed or leaving, for him to push the boundaries, it doesn't invalidate her hard work. Let it go or have a talk. You keep chasing YOU are going to be the one who needs counseling.
> 
> She didn't contact him and there hasn't been further contact.


With exception of contact on LinkedIn initiated by OM a few days ago and PG13 was not privvy to the information as he requested if such contact was made. W has not returned a reply. That is a good thing. However, not advising PG13 is not a good thing. It was a simple request of PG13. Now it is a secret.

H and W keep secrets....about Christmas presents! Not something like this. It degrades trust.


----------



## Yeswecan

Chaparral said:


> The thing is, this is part of the script for affair partners to start fishing after being caught and letting things settle down and then try to hook up again.
> :iagree:
> 
> 
> That total transparency isn't in effect is just wrong.
> :iagree:


----------



## changedbeliefs

You are paranoid/anxious constantly about this. You do not trust your wife. She may or may not be committed to this. Even if she is, and Kurt is nothing but a guy making too many passes, your desire to treat her like a child - here's what you can do, here's what you can't, I have to know where you are, who you're with, what you say - that's not a marriage, it's a daycare. I can't figure out why people support this kind of situation. I mean....can you ever envision being happy in this relationship again? If so....at what cost?? I just feel so bad for both of you....this is no way to live.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

changedbeliefs said:


> your desire to treat her like a child - here's what you can do, here's what you can't, I have to know where you are, who you're with, what you say - that's not a marriage, it's a daycare.


Well, only when it comes to being out with other dudes. Guess I'm old fashioned that way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Thanks for all the responses. Just got in after a day trip with my son. Will try to answer some questions sorry if I miss some.

Kurt was downsized after some managers positions got combined... He was one of the odd men out, performance related, seniority, or otherwise why he didn't stay not sure.

We have access to each other's passwords. Her email is always open on the iPad. She reactivated all messaging on her iPad before the February trip and it has been activated since. Facebook as well. She knows I used to snoop, and she may or may not think I still snoop. She has never used a LinkedIn app, however it's he same password as her emails which I previously knew. Yes all my passwords and codes are written down for her if she ever wants them.

Yes, I have tried to be correct my own faults. I don't sweat minor purchases. We have some cc debt but it's manageable. I abhor debt it keeps me up at night despite being in lending for 15 years myself lol. But it's noting overwhelming. I just ask she consult with me before any big purchases. Our income is almost identical these days. The kids yes I need to be more patient with. Please know when I say short fuse it's not physical or abusive in any way. I admit the fuse got a lot shorter over the past year when all this went down but i try to be more patient. 

The dog issue, well I'm not anti-dog per se. I travel a lot for work, she travels a little. Two kids will be 4-6 later this fall. We travel a lot on weekends to see family 2-3 hours away, so a dog would be difficult. Part of the issue is her parent's 11 yo dog is dying. He's a great dog. Family is very sad about it. So trying to be diplomatic. A friend from her work was selling retriever pups for $1000. I had to be the bad guy as we don't have $1000 lying around. Also just seems like a lot. But it has to be a retriever and or golden lab mix.

Sex life is improving. It was roller coaster for long time. Wife was pregnant within 6 months of marriage. Lost the baby three months in (Xmas Eve- our first Xmas married together). Got pregnant again soon after. We took it easy on sex during pregnancy. C-section, healthy baby, but long recovery time. Pregnant again a year later, some complications, advised to have no sex. Healthy baby number 2. Wife gained some weight, tough to lose, didn't want to have sex very often. Maybe 1-2 a month. Keep in mind I'm always a horny SOB and would gladly every day/night. Been dieting on and off and looks good now, though was never an issue for me (lost. 25-30 pounds over last year.) sex up to 1-2 a week, down from 2-3 a week after November incident.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Q tip

Kurt left and now shows his colors. He's an ass. Simple as that.


----------



## alexm

This is probably an over-simplification of things, but can you not just send him an email telling him nicely (or not-so-nicely) to stop contacting your wife, period? You don't need to threaten him or call him names. Just state matter-of-factly that he's been a thorn in your side and he's not welcome in your or your wife's lives.

And cc: your wife on it.

If she won't put her foot down firmly, somebody has to.

I did something similar a few years ago, though somewhat unintentionally. My wife left her FB open, and some guy shot her a message that popped up that I saw. It was inappropriate (though not highly so). Like a comment on what she was wearing that day at work or something. So I stared at it for a few minutes and thought "what the hell", and typed back a quick message saying something like "hi, this is ____'s boyfriend, Mike. We share a computer together, as well as a house, just so you know. Anything else you'd like me to pass on to her when she gets home?" He didn't reply, and I let my wife know what happened when she got home. She wasn't pissed, oddly enough. Probably a little embarrassed, but I think she grudgingly appreciated me marking my territory like that. They are no longer FB friends.

*edit - FYI, I took it upon myself to go through all prior FB messages with this guy, and didn't see anything worth worrying about. I would definitely say this guy was fishing, though on a very small scale, and my wife's responses to him were very dismissive (though I wished they had been a bit more forceful, of course...) They were co-workers. I was also mentioned (positively) in these messages. It was really just chit-chat, with a little bit of fishing on his part, but generally on the up-and-up.


----------



## CASE_Sensitive

PG - As the owner of a yellow lab that *I* walk at 5:30 AM and also at night, and 3 X on the weekends....in February...in the rain.....in the snow...etc, 

I love my dog, but it's a big committment. Not something to be taken lightly.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

phillybeffandswiss said:


> IS this something she said? This is a weird direction to go, when it occurred basically after he was gone. If it ended up this way early in her career, I could see your logic. It took him getting removed or leaving, for him to push the boundaries, it doesn't invalidate her hard work. Let it go or have a talk. You keep chasing YOU are going to be the one who needs counseling.
> 
> She didn't contact him and there hasn't been further contact.


I guess what I'm saying is this.

As her manager he supported her professionally, and she appreciated that. Promotion and modest raise. Then he was downsized, with probably 4-6 weeks notice. Which tells me it wasn't a discipline or he would have been gone without notice. Technically the November meetings he was still employed but not at the meetings, was cleaning out. The office and running out the clock. Met her out on that Thursday night, that Friday was his last day.

So now she's got me telling her this guy is garbage, after nothing but sex, stay away, he's a predator. (And I have no regrets saying that). Her version of him and mine are completely opposite. So while I'm not saying that HER career is now invalidated by HIS drunken actions, the one guy that has supported her, I now have utter disdain for, And I'm sure that somehow factors into her defense of him in some small way. 

Hope that makes sense, kind of rambling.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

CASE_Sensitive said:


> PG - As the owner of a yellow lab that *I* walk at 5:30 AM and also at night, and 3 X on the weekends....in February...in the rain.....in the snow...etc,
> 
> I love my dog, but it's a big committment. Not something to be taken lightly.


Agreed. And while I travel a lot, I also work from home when not on the road. So that helps. But then there will be days I'm traveling and wife has long day at office, or kids stuff. 

She's agreed to do ALL the dog-walking. (She also mentioned a bridge for sale


----------



## tom67

PhillyGuy13 said:


> I guess what I'm saying is this.
> 
> As her manager he supported her professionally, and she appreciated that. Promotion and modest raise. Then he was downsized, with probably 4-6 weeks notice. Which tells me it wasn't a discipline or he would have been gone without notice. Technically the November meetings he was still employed but not at the meetings, was cleaning out. The office and running out the clock. Met her out on that Thursday night, that Friday was his last day.
> 
> So now she's got me telling her this guy is garbage, after nothing but sex, stay away, he's a predator. (And I have no regrets saying that). Her version of him and mine are completely opposite. So while I'm not saying that HER career is now invalidated by HIS drunken actions, the one guy that has supported her, I now have utter disdain for, And I'm sure that somehow factors into her defense of him in some small way.
> 
> Hope that makes sense, kind of rambling.


It makes sense but if she doesn't realize he was going after more (was it pizza in the hotel room?) I mean really?
It was a professional relationship up to that point but that crap no way.


----------



## Q tip

tom67 said:


> It makes sense but if she doesn't realize he was going after more (was it pizza in the hotel room?) I mean really?
> It was a professional relationship up to that point but that crap no way.


yep, its obvious he's fishing for a non-professional relationship. W, because of her previous professional relationship probably does not see it that way. The fog of professionalism while he slips down his slope trying to grab anyone in reach.

Hey, maybe he contacted her because his GF dumped his sorry a$$. Using Linkedin as the "professional" access pass.


----------



## Q tip

Just plan for consideration. A little luv-note for the Kurtchild. Maybe if your W knows the next steps, it'll help her too. Or actually have a lawyer draft something.

---------------------cut here-------------------------

Kurt,

My wife and I both have observed your inappropriate conduct the days of and after you left XXXX. You are hereby notified you are to never get in touch or contact my wife in any way. Any such communication or contact, no matter how or why will end with your current employer receiving all information and formal legal complaint extended against you and your employer over your behavior.

There will also be a legal filing of harassment and order of protection lodged (or whatever his state calls this) against you. This will go as public as possible. Family, friends will be informed.

Should you feel legal recourse is necessary, we look forward to a complete discovery process into your private life way beyond what we already know and where evidence is presented for the public record.

Simply stop any and all contact, harassment and this goes no further. 

PS ever hear of cheatervilleDOTcom?

---------------------cut here-------------------------


or maybe copy this to his HR dept too.

*phew, I feel better now*


----------



## bigbearsfan

tom67 said:


> It makes sense but if she doesn't realize he was going after more (was it pizza in the hotel room?) I mean really?
> It was a professional relationship up to that point but that crap no way.


Not to mention the holding hands part.


----------



## davecarter

Q tip said:


> Just plan for consideration. A little luv-note for the Kurtchild. Maybe if your W knows the next steps, it'll help her too. Or actually have a lawyer draft something.
> 
> ---------------------cut here-------------------------
> 
> Kurt,
> 
> My wife and I both have observed your inappropriate conduct the days of and after you left XXXX. You are hereby notified you are to never get in touch or contact my wife in any way. Any such communication or contact, no matter how or why will end with your current employer receiving all information and formal legal complaint extended against you and your employer over your behavior.
> 
> There will also be a legal filing of harassment and order of protection lodged (or whatever his state calls this) against you. This will go as public as possible. Family, friends will be informed.
> 
> Should you feel legal recourse is necessary, we look forward to a complete discovery process into your private life way beyond what we already know and where evidence is presented for the public record.
> 
> Simply stop any and all contact, harassment and this goes no further.
> 
> PS ever hear of cheatervilleDOTcom?
> 
> ---------------------cut here-------------------------
> 
> 
> or maybe copy this to his HR dept too.
> 
> *phew, I feel better now*


As effective as a chocolate fire-guard, that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## thatbpguy

PG13, I have followed ther story and reread it today (slow day at work).

When I read your very first post, it seemed clear they did indeed hold hands despite her denial. And then there's deleted texts... If for no other reason that that I support your snooping. I maintain there is no privacy in marriage. My wife and I have 100% access to diaries, journals (where she has said some harsh things about me once in a while when mad at me), emails...

So I say stick with it, but don't get paranoiod. If there's nothing to hide, then there's nothing she could be upset about. She was the one holding hands and deleting texts. Innocent or not, that's not innocent behavior.

Now, I am NOT saying she has betrayed you. maybe guilty of flirty texts. But you have a right to know.


----------



## manfromlamancha

PG13, I have seen this whole thing a few times before. Even as a manager in my early days, my best performing staff were often women in a very male-dominated environment (think Japanese firm). I had to literally swim upstream to get them the promotions and bonuses they deserved and they worked twice as hard as everyone else. As a result they were very loyal to me even when I "fell out" with senior management. And I continue to stay in touch with some of them even till today. This is the loyalty your wife feels towards Kurt. It could have also developed into romantic feelings but I don't think it has.

However, he did get inappropriate with her and that was genuine cause for concern. There is nothing wrong with staying vigilant. However, her loyalty is to be commended. Not her sense in understanding how you feel, though. She needs to understand that you understand all of the above. And still need her to be open with you. Tell her you commend her loyalty to someone who supported her in her career but are concerned about him overstepping boundaries every now and then and hence need her to be very open with you about him.


----------



## Q tip

davecarter said:


> As effective as a chocolate fire-guard, that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Point is, Kurt has never been informed to F#ck off. There are many ways to do this, some even appropriate.


----------



## workindad

Her loyalty should be to her husband and family not an exboss who wants to get in her pants.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TheFlood117

Key-loggers and VARs are your friends.


----------



## Philat

changedbeliefs said:


> Kurt is nothing but a guy making too many passes


And you think this is nothing?



Q tip said:


> Point is, Kurt has never been informed to F#ck off. There are many ways to do this, some even appropriate.


This is the missing piece in PhillyGuy's story. Otherwise he has the situation well in hand. And I do not think his W is misbehaving any longer.


----------



## turnera

bigbearsfan said:


> Not to mention the holding hands part.


WHAT wife - EVER - holds HANDS with another man than her husband?

If she ever gives you crap, just repeat that. There is absolutely no comeback she could scrap together for that.


----------



## davecarter

Q tip said:


> Point is, Kurt has never been informed to F#ck off. There are many ways to do this, some even appropriate.


Correct, he hasn't.
But saying to a _'potential' _OM (let's not argue about it: nothing has happened between them), _"Please don't flirt with my wife",_ no matter how you gloss it up would probably give Kurt and any other OM a right old laugh.

Sending a quasi-legal sounding letter to a guy who has been out drinking with your wife, texted some flirty mumbo-jumbo, made a very, _very _light proposition and sent a harmless LinkedIn request is preposteruous at best!


----------



## Philat

davecarter said:


> Correct, he hasn't.
> But saying to a _'potential' _OM (let's not argue about it: nothing has happened between them), _"Please don't flirt with my wife",_ no matter how you gloss it up would probably give Kurt and any other OM a right old laugh.
> 
> Sending a quasi-legal sounding letter to a guy who has been out drinking with your wife, texted some flirty mumbo-jumbo, made a very, _very _light proposition and sent a harmless LinkedIn request is preposteruous at best!


Dave: The point is that _Mrs._ Philly needed to shut Kurt down. But this whole debate has already been conducted.


----------



## davecarter

Philat said:


> Dave: The point is that _Mrs._ Philly needed to shut Kurt down. But this whole debate has already been conducted.


Yeah, I know that.
My reply was to Q's Husband's-Letter-to-OM example.

But, as we debate over and over in these analogies, who do you blame most: the opportunist jerk OM wandering into your house and walking off with your 5h!t or the wife who unlocked the door and invited him in?
If you want to fight for women like that, fine...call it fighting for your honor or whatever but if you're going to fight the OM, then remember you're fighting him _because _of your wife.


----------



## Yeswecan

davecarter said:


> Correct, he hasn't.
> But saying to a _'potential' _OM (let's not argue about it: nothing has happened between them), _"Please don't flirt with my wife",_ no matter how you gloss it up would probably give Kurt and any other OM a right old laugh. They may laugh all they like. The boundary is to be set up and adhered to by PG13 wife. Spending a evening drinking and wandering the streets with any OM is not what a W does. I do not wander the streets with OW on a binge no matter if they are a boss, co-worker or even a cousin to my wife. PG13 and W need to come to a level playing field of what both feel is appropriate behavior.
> 
> Sending a quasi-legal sounding letter to a guy who has been out drinking with your wife, texted some flirty mumbo-jumbo, made a very, _very _light proposition and sent a harmless LinkedIn request is preposteruous at best!


 No letter to OM is required. W is advised that this behavior will not be tolerated in any form. Alcohol is a damn good driver of outing feelings and emotions. What appears to be mumbo-jumbo is really what is going on inside that persons head. Alcohol is the vehicle that let's it spill. At the end of the day, IMO, the relationship was the budding of something more. Specifically now that the superior/worker relationship was over as the boss lost his job.


Bottom line...PG13 is not happy with this relationship. His W was advised of his feelings. The relationship should end right there.


----------



## Yeswecan

davecarter said:


> Yeah, I know that.
> My reply was to Q's Husband's-Letter-to-OM example.
> 
> But, as we debate over and over in these analogies, who do you blame most: the opportunist jerk OM wandering into your house and walking off with your 5h!t or the wife who unlocked the door and invited him in?
> If you want to fight for women like that, fine...call it fighting for your honor or whatever but if you're going to fight the OM, then remember you're fighting him _because _of your wife.


Point well taken.


----------



## davecarter

Yeswecan said:


> They may laugh all they like. The boundary is to be set up and adhered to by PG13 wife. Spending a evening drinking and wandering the streets with any OM is not what a W does. I do not wander the streets with OW on a binge no matter if they are a boss, co-worker or even a cousin to my wife. PG13 and W need to come to a level playing field of what both feel is appropriate behavior
> 
> No letter to OM is required. W is advised that this behavior will not be tolerated in any form. Alcohol is a damn good driver of outing feelings and emotions. What appears to be mumbo-jumbo is really what is going on inside that persons head. Alcohol is the vehicle that let's it spill. At the end of the day, IMO, the relationship was the budding of something more. Specifically now that the superior/worker relationship was over as the boss lost his job.
> 
> 
> Bottom line...PG13 is not happy with this relationship. His W was advised of his feelings. The relationship should end right there.


There are no rules here: Philly said in his original post he was aware of wife going out with Kurt and was fine with it...as he was with their friendship.
So your above post is massively off-target, for a start.

I'm beginning to think that there are a hell of a lot of people around who think that whatever they 'think' they knew about human nature was wrong.
And nature is brutal because it doesn’t give a f*cuk about 'boundaries' or 'appropriateness' or 'pleading letters' or any other souped-up Beta-sh!t you might want to use to warn off a potential OM-threat.


----------



## bfree

Remember the days when men's honor meant something? Remember the days when if you screwed with a man's wife or family you got a beatdown...or worse. Yeah, I miss those days too.


----------



## davecarter

bfree said:


> Remember the days when men's honor meant something? Remember the days when if you screwed with a man's wife or family you got a beatdown...or worse. Yeah, I miss those days too.


Pistols at dawn?
_"I challenge you to a duel!"_

Agreed. Back then, somebody _had _to go...


----------



## lordmayhem

bfree said:


> Remember the days when men's honor meant something? Remember the days when if you screwed with a man's wife or family you got a beatdown...or worse. Yeah, I miss those days too.


Nowadays, OM run crying to the police about getting their ass beat by the enraged BH. They even call the police all the time to try and get the BH into trouble.

"I want to report an ongoing domestic assault? I was talking to ***** and there and I could hear her husband yelling and stuff"

"How are you related to her?"

"She's just a friend" 

Then I have no choice but to order dispatch to send a cruiser to check out the reported domestic disturbance. 

No freaking honor at all.


----------



## bfree

I remember when the police might give you a second beatdown if they found out what the first one was for. This world sucks sometimes.


----------



## thatbpguy

davecarter said:


> There are no rules here: Philly said in his original post he was aware of wife going out with Kurt and was fine with it...as he was with their friendship.
> So your above post is massively off-target, for a start.
> 
> I'm beginning to think that there are a hell of a lot of people around who think that whatever they 'think' they knew about human nature was wrong.
> And nature is brutal because it doesn’t give a f*cuk about 'boundaries' or 'appropriateness' or 'pleading letters' or any other souped-up Beta-sh!t you might want to use to warn off a potential OM-threat.


Take is easy there, dave. No need getting all lathered up.


----------



## davecarter

thatbpguy said:


> Take is easy there, dave. No need getting all lathered up.


I'm :cussing: not :banghead: getting :soapbox: all :2gunsfiring_v1: lathered :gun: up!!!!




_Okay??!_


----------



## PhillyGuy13

I'm going to put him on notice, once LinkedIn issue resolves.

Basically: 

"Dude. Leave my wife alone. I saw your texts to her last November. No, they were not innocent. You wanted to be alone in her hotel room and you wanted pics of her in her pajamas. Here is proof. Care to explain why you were holding my wife's hand? 

I expect there to be no further attempts at contact."

cc: wife

Or better yet, make her send it and cc me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

davecarter said:


> I'm :cussing: not :banghead: getting :soapbox: all :2gunsfiring_v1: lathered :gun: up!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Okay??!_


----------



## PhillyGuy13

I was stupid in trusting her. Maybe naive not stupid. Going out for drinks when a coworker leaves a job isn't uncommon. What I should have said then was, if it's just the two of you, no, that's not appropriate.

Live and learn!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## thatbpguy

davecarter said:


> I'm :cussing: not :banghead: getting :soapbox: all :2gunsfiring_v1: lathered :gun: up!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Okay??!_


HAHAHAHA!!!

Good use of those dealymabobs.


----------



## thatbpguy

PhillyGuy13 said:


> I'm going to put him on notice, once LinkedIn issue resolves.
> 
> Basically:
> 
> "Dude. Leave my wife alone. I saw your texts to her last November. No, they were not innocent. You wanted to be alone in her hotel room and you wanted pics of her in her pajamas. Here is proof. Care to explain why you were holding my wife's hand?
> 
> I expect there to be no further attempts at contact."
> 
> cc: wife
> 
> Or better yet, make her send it and cc me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



First, this should have been done some time ago. I think it's probably too late now, but send it anyway. 

Second, send it yourself and cc the wife.


----------



## Yeswecan

davecarter said:


> There are no rules here: Philly said in his original post he was aware of wife going out with Kurt and was fine with it...as he was with their friendship.
> So your above post is massively off-target, for a start.
> Yes, PG13 was fine with it. However, dinner after a conference turned into a drinking binge with the now jobless boss. I do not believe that was part of the itinerary. I was in sales. I would take clients to dinner. My wife was ok with that. However, some clients liked to visit strip clubs. That part of the itinerary was not fine with my W. Either would drinking to excess with another woman. I never did either.
> 
> I'm beginning to think that there are a hell of a lot of people around who think that whatever they 'think' they knew about human nature was wrong.
> And nature is brutal because it doesn’t give a f*cuk about 'boundaries' or 'appropriateness' or 'pleading letters' or any other souped-up Beta-sh!t you might want to use to warn off a potential OM-threat.


Human nature is out the window when the human is three sheets to wind blind/blackout drunk. Boundaries and appropriate behavior go along with it. You know, "I was drunk. It just happened." Oh brother....

At any rate, the pleading letter is useless. The issue at hand is between PG13 and W.


----------



## turnera

PhillyGuy13 said:


> I'm going to put him on notice, once LinkedIn issue resolves.
> 
> Basically:
> 
> "Dude. Leave my wife alone. I saw your texts to her last November. No, they were not innocent. You wanted to be alone in her hotel room and you wanted pics of her in her pajamas. Here is proof. Care to explain why you were holding my wife's hand?
> 
> I expect there to be no further attempts at contact."


Huh? Why are you trying to convince HIM that you have proof; that's beta. Why do you even have to ASK him about holding her hand? YOU know, HE knows, SHE knows. Just put an end to it.

BE the alpha and tell him to leave your wife alone - or else.

"Dude, contact my wife again and there will be repercussions."

You don't even have to wait. Do it today. Just email him or call him. And if your wife then comes to you to complain, you will have proof that they ARE in touch. If she doesn't complain, then you'll know that he left her alone and/or that he contacted her but she chooses you, or that they're still in contact and you need to ditch her. Either way, you win.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

turnera said:


> Huh? Why are you trying to convince HIM that you have proof; that's beta. Why do you even have to ASK him about holding her hand? YOU know, HE knows, SHE knows. Just put an end to it.
> 
> BE the alpha and tell him to leave your wife alone - or else.
> 
> "Dude, contact my wife again and there will be repercussions."


Because I'm sure I would get a response "I don't know what you are taking about, I would never do such a thing, you are off base"

But short and sweet I get it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## thatbpguy

PhillyGuy13 said:


> I was stupid in trusting her. Maybe naive not stupid. Going out for drinks when a coworker leaves a job isn't uncommon. What I should have said then was, if it's just the two of you, no, that's not appropriate.
> 
> Live and learn!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agreed. 

What married person even places themselves in that position? 

I mean, your wife says to trust her and that's all well and good, but trust only goes so far. It's human nature that when men and women get together the sparks can fly- even if not intended. That's why married people set boundaries. Your wife pushed them too far and held hands with a man not her husband. Maybe she felt sorry for him or saw it as an act of friendship- but either way, she lied to you about it. I'd say her trust factor is way down. 

My wife trusted a guy that wanted her help with a blog and I forbid her to go to his house, but agreed for them to meet at a coffee shop. That began a small EA that she fell into and had me triggering all over the place thinking a lot worse. Fortunately, she saw it early on and backed out. But we have had a few tough conversations about it. 

So trust is one thing, but without necessary and proper boundaries, it's not worth much.


----------



## tom67

thatbpguy said:


> Agreed.
> 
> What married person even places themselves in that position?
> 
> I mean, your wife says to trust her and that's all well and good, but trust only goes so far. It's human nature that when men and women get together the sparks can fly- even if not intended. That's why married people set boundaries. Your wife pushed them too far and held hands with a man not her husband. Maybe she felt sorry for him or saw it as an act of friendship- but either way, she lied to you about it. I'd say her trust factor is way down.
> 
> My wife trusted a guy that wanted her help with a blog and I forbid her to go to his house, but agreed for them to meet at a coffee shop. That began a small EA that she fell into and had me triggering all over the place thinking a lot worse. Fortunately, she saw it early on and backed out. But we have had a few tough conversations about it.
> 
> So trust is one thing, but without necessary and proper boundaries, it's not worth much.


:iagree::iagree:
Blind trust is never healthy.
Trust but verify on occasion.


----------



## changedbeliefs

Philat said:


> And you think this is nothing?


You took my statement COMPLETELY out of its context. I did not declare "Kurt is nothing but a guy making too many passes," and I didn't even nearly allude to the fact that it was "nothing." The entire context was:



> She may or may not be committed to this. *Even if she is, and Kurt is nothing but a guy making too many passes,* your desire to treat her like a child - [snip] -that's not a marriage, it's a daycare.


BIG difference. My point was, let's just ASSUME she's still committed and that Kurt is harmless...I was seeing PG13's actions as still turning this into a confrontational, untrusting marriage. I don't like this sense of "ownership" in a marriage. "She's mine, back off." Maybe that's the way it used to be, maybe some consider that chivalrous, but I don't. If the wife is not up, and has never been up, for Kurt's advances, it needs to be on her to put them to a stop. PG13 writing emails to Kurt is "big bad husband fighting the battles for weak wittle wifey," IMO.


----------



## turnera

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Because I'm sure I would get a response "I don't know what you are taking about, I would never do such a thing, you are off base"


So?


----------



## thatbpguy

changedbeliefs said:


> My point was, let's just ASSUME she's still committed and that Kurt is harmless...I was seeing PG13's actions as still turning this into a confrontational, untrusting marriage. I don't like this sense of "ownership" in a marriage. "She's mine, back off." Maybe that's the way it used to be, maybe some consider that chivalrous, but I don't. If the wife is not up, and has never been up, for Kurt's advances, it needs to be on her to put them to a stop. PG13 writing emails to Kurt is "big bad husband fighting the battles for weak wittle wifey," IMO.


I will disagree with you on this. I think both spouses should take "ownership" of the other. It's hand in hand with personal accountability. Otherwise, it's "do as you please and hopefully you won't betray me". Ownership also sets boundaries. Healthy boundaries.

And I also think PG13 should have sent an email immediately, or better, gone and had a talk with good ol' Kurt. This should have been nipped in the bud then. I sent a sharp one to the dope wifey was being wooed by. I gave him an option- stop or I will visit him personally in the hospital. Fortunately, wifey had already sent a drop dead email and he was gone.


----------



## thatbpguy

turnera said:


> So?


^ Agreed 110%.

Also, PG13, you simply *tell* him. Tell him that all contact ceases immediately- or else. No reason even needed. She is your wife and not his. 

As to your wife, she can choose you or her friendship with Kurt. Period. 

That's how I handled it when I got it figured out.


----------



## bigbearsfan

thatbpguy said:


> I will disagree with you on this. I think both spouses should take "ownership" of the other. It's hand in hand with personal accountability. Otherwise, it's "do as you please and hopefully you won't betray me". Ownership also sets boundaries. Healthy boundaries.
> 
> And I also think PG13 should have sent an email immediately, or better, gone and had a talk with good ol' Kurt. This should have been nipped in the bud then. I sent a sharp one to the dope wifey was being wooed by. I gave him an option- stop or I will visit him personally in the hospital. Fortunately, wifey had already sent a drop dead email and he was gone.


:iagree:


----------



## bigbearsfan

thatbpguy said:


> ^ Agreed 110%.
> 
> Also, PG13, you simply *tell* him. Tell him that all contact ceases immediately- or else. No reason even needed. She is your wife and not his.
> 
> As to your wife, she can choose you or her friendship with Kurt. Period.
> 
> That's how I handled it when I got it figured out.


:iagree: AMEN!:allhail:


----------



## The Middleman

thatbpguy said:


> ^ Agreed 110%.
> 
> Also, PG13, you simply *tell* him. Tell him that all contact ceases immediately- or else. No reason even needed. She is your wife and not his.
> 
> As to your wife, she can choose you or her friendship with Kurt. Period.
> 
> That's how I handled it when I got it figured out.


This is what needs to be done ... and you need to be clear ... in no uncertain terms.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Wife's texts while she was on the road.*



PhillyGuy13 said:


> Because I'm sure I would get a response "I don't know what you are taking about, I would never do such a thing, you are off base"
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Response "Then I'm sure you won't mind if I send these pictures to your wife/girlfriend/son/daughter/mother/father/supervisor."


----------



## manfromlamancha

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Anna: 11:36pm *So you still owe me dinner next time!!!* (They headed out around 5:00 but never ate- only bars)
> Kurt: Agreed. and a drink. Or two.
> Anna: Lol... Good on drinks
> Kurt: Not yet, but close. You are good AP look me up when you in Clev (AP is a nickname I had for her that apparently he does too)
> Kurt: had fun tonight. Hope you did too. Sorry for the awful pizza.
> Anna: *So Feb 6-7 I am back... save the date!*
> Anna: *I had fun too*
> Kurt: I will... And dinner will be planned much better
> *Anna: *
> Kurt: drinks at "xxxx bar" maybe skip
> Kurt: outside the lines- you are good- you will do well.
> Kurt: next time you and I just hang.
> Anna: outside the lines??
> Kurt: of work. Of political correctness. Where I can tell you you are pretty and it is ok.
> Anna: it was just you and I? (She is questioning because they were alone 5-10' then at 10 his girlfriend came out to drive him home, it was the three of them 10-11)
> Kurt: yes - until you got hammered... Or until I did.
> Anna: lol you did
> Kurt: I got the delicious pizza for us. (Sarcasm - the pizza was terrible)
> Anna: ok going to bed now
> Kurt: next time we eat in your room. Easier to trust room service.
> Kurt: Later AP
> Anna: *don't forget me because you are gone now!*
> Kurt: you're cute. Have a good night sweetie. Sorry I missed on dinner. Order at hotel. Next time in town let me know.
> Kurt: I will do the same. I have some friends by you now. In "your town"
> Anna: already in bed... No dinner tonight.
> Kurt: And that is somehow hot. The dinner part my bad. But the bed part...
> Kurt: it is early now that I see it. What do you sleep in?
> Anna: *seriously you are in the car with "girlfriend"*
> Kurt: Umm... I am home. I live 15 minutes away. You should come hang. I will cook dinner. (I do not know if he lives with girlfriend)
> Anna: *so it is "Albany College" pajama pants. Now that is TMI*
> Kurt: that is cute... And I liked holding your hand. Different, now but had fun. Hope you did too. I want to see.
> Anna: to see?
> Kurt: Albany College pants
> Anna: *I have to delete this conversation.*
> Kurt: I have heard that before. Usually it is from "boss" but glad it's u now
> Anna: *12:05 am lol. Hope you are around when I am back here.*


OK I stand corrected. I just re-read the original post and it was more than just him hitting on/flirting, your wife was flirting right back (see red bits above). So you are absolutely right to jump on this - loyalty, shmoyalty!!!


----------



## Yeswecan

PhillyGuy13 said:


> I was stupid in trusting her. Maybe naive not stupid. Going out for drinks when a coworker leaves a job isn't uncommon. What I should have said then was, if it's just the two of you, no, that's not appropriate.
> 
> Live and learn!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Stupid for trusting her? No, you should have the utmost trust in your W. Naive? No as this relates back to having trust. Was there any indication previously that would have brought on any trust issues? Probably not. The text conversation is disturbing certainly. I can understand the concern.


----------



## Philat

changedbeliefs said:


> You took my statement COMPLETELY out of its context. I did not declare "Kurt is nothing but a guy making too many passes," and I didn't even nearly allude to the fact that it was "nothing." The entire context was:
> 
> 
> BIG difference. My point was, let's just ASSUME she's still committed and that Kurt is harmless...I was seeing PG13's actions as still turning this into a confrontational, untrusting marriage. I don't like this sense of "ownership" in a marriage. "She's mine, back off." Maybe that's the way it used to be, maybe some consider that chivalrous, but I don't. If the wife is not up, and has never been up, for Kurt's advances, it needs to be on her to put them to a stop. PG13 writing emails to Kurt is "big bad husband fighting the battles for weak wittle wifey," IMO.


What? Your assumption is that Kurt is harmless, and therefore that "making too many passes" is harmless, i.e., nothing. That's what I was referring to.


----------



## TRy

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Because I'm sure I would get a response "I don't know what you are taking about, I would never do such a thing, you are off base"
> 
> But short and sweet I get it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 I disagree with telling the other man to stop contacting your wife. You should be telling your wife and not the other man to cut off all contact with the other man. No matter what the other man says, telling him to stop rarely gets them to stop. What it actually does do is give the other man an ego boost at your expense, by confirming how much your wife values her relationship with him. It is also an admission to this other man that your wife does not respect your wishes on this.


----------



## thatbpguy

Yeswecan said:


> Stupid for trusting her? No, you should have the utmost trust in your W. Naive? No as this relates back to having trust. Was there any indication previously that would have brought on any trust issues? Probably not. The text conversation is disturbing certainly. I can understand the concern.


I agree with this. You were fine in trusting her. But she flirted and held hands with a guy wooing her and then lied to you about it. That's a major loss of trust. If you haven't, this needs to be very directly addressed- especially about her lying to you. And who knows, maybe she is lying to herself as well. I like what manfromlamancha did- copy the emails/texts and highlite her flirts. Make her realize what she was doing and tell her no more lies. You cannot have a marriage like this.


----------



## Yeswecan

thatbpguy said:


> I agree with this. You were fine in trusting her. But she flirted and held hands with a guy wooing her and then lied to you about it. That's a major loss of trust. If you haven't, this needs to be very directly addressed- especially about her lying to you. And who knows, maybe she is lying to herself as well. I like what manfromlamancha did- copy the emails/texts and highlite her flirts. Make her realize what she was doing and tell her no more lies. You cannot have a marriage like this.


PG13...if she reads the red highlighted portions of the text she will see that this was flirting. Sometimes people need to see it on paper to get the full picture. Especially the response of W saying this needed to be deleted. It is at this point she knows the game is afoot. Did she cut it off because she knew it was wrong or was she attempting to hide what was possibly or could possibly be more? Hard to say when the response in the portion of the text, "Anna: 12:05 am lol. Hope you are around when I am back here." Then again it may not be hard to say. There was something budding here.

She needs to come to terms the text messaging that night are inappropriate on many levels. This has generated an environment of distrust. Really, stating this text needs to be deleted is a dead give away. Since this environment of distrust was created by the W any and all contact is to stop. I don't think she has owned up to what she was up to that night. She needs to. Then and only then will she possibly realize what a stale environment she has created at your expense. Has your W acknowledged that the text message that night are inappropriate?


----------



## PhillyGuy13

She knows the conversation was extremely inappropriate. A lot of tears shed since. She still that he tried grabbing her hand as they were walking into another bar, and she immediately pulled away - that that is the hand holding. Swears up and down. It doesn't make sense to me but I've moved on. Immediately = 5 seconds? Who knows.

No- no other indication before or since that there are problems with infidelity. In fact her loyalty and dedication to ME from early on in our relationship is what I loved about her. 

Anyway, things are ok. I will think about sending a message to Kurt. I agree with both the whys and why nots as to send it or not. 

In even worse news, my mother is coming for the weekend. I'd rather sit through a thousand ice bucket challenge videos than endure her for the weekend, but it is what it is. So I'm going to be extra nice to the wife this weekend. Hope y'all have a nice weekend too and thanks for letting me vent.


----------



## bigbearsfan

Yeswecan said:


> PG13...if she reads the red highlighted portions of the text she will see that this was flirting. Sometimes people need to see it on paper to get the full picture. Especially the response of W saying this needed to be deleted. It is at this point she knows the game is afoot. Did she cut it off because she knew it was wrong or was she attempting to hide what was possibly or could possibly be more? Hard to say when the response in the portion of the text, "Anna: 12:05 am lol. Hope you are around when I am back here." Then again it may not be hard to say. There was something budding here.
> 
> She needs to come to terms the text messaging that night are inappropriate on many levels. This has generated an environment of distrust. Really, stating this text needs to be deleted is a dead give away. Since this environment of distrust was created by the W any and all contact is to stop. I don't think she has owned up to what she was up to that night. She needs to. Then and only then will she possibly realize what a stale environment she has created at your expense. To be honest, this will eat at you until she shows true remorse and grasp the understanding that you do have feelings. I almost put this at sweeping it under the carpet on her part. .


 Stop it, she damn well knew what she was doing, that's why she said that she had to "delete the messages" to Kurt. Also the holding hands BS. She knew exactly what she was into and kept it up cause she liked the attention.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

In her defense, and not trying to defend the whole situation, she didn't actually delete anything right away. When she got home I expected the messages to be gone off her phone, but they weren't. She had several hours in an airport to delete things and she didn't. And they remained for a few days before she finally deleted everything. Though I had taken screen shots anyway. 

Whenever I flirt with her over text, "I love you can't wait to see you tonight. " she will respond "I'm deleting this". She never flirted over text with me. Even though I'm away a ton. That was a big annoyance for me/ her flirting with this chump but never with me. Of course now I get some PG flirts, never pics, but at this point they are tainted like she is trying to make it up to me. This week I asked her to send me some pics she said No!!! I don't want pics of me out there!! I guess it's a good thing but a little spice would be nice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## thatbpguy

PhillyGuy13 said:


> This is my first posting and it will be long. So apologies but thanks for advice/feedback.
> 
> I'm 40, wife "Anna" is 33. Together 9 years, married for 6. Two kids, ages 5 and 3. I travel frequently for work, my wife occasionally. She works for national bank. We live in upstate NY. She is a great mom and wife, really wholesome so I never thought I'd be in this situation.
> 
> Her manager "Kurt" is 41, based in Cleveland. She has worked for him for 2-3 years. She has to go out there a few times per year, he comes out our way a few times a year. They've developed a friendship which didn't bother me. She has gone out with him and his girlfriend when she is in Cleveland in the past, seemed innocent. I believe he is divorced, I know he at least has a kid. In October the bank combined some positions and he lost his job.. I know it bothered her she was really stressed with "getting to know a new boss now when she had a good relationship with Kurt"
> 
> On November 13-14 she was out in Cleveland with her team to meet the new boss. She had told me she was going to meet Kurt out on the night of 11/14. She checked in with me a few times throughout the night both phone and texts.
> 
> Around 11:30 pm her iPad starts pinging. She didn't bring it with her, so the kids can play with it. I got up to shut the sound off, when I saw this exchange (edited for spelling only) the convo seems a bit jumbled - May be they were slow to respond to each other or that is how it came through on the iPad.
> 
> Anna: 11:36pm So you still owe me dinner next time!!! (They headed out around 5:00 but never ate- only bars)
> Kurt: Agreed. and a drink. Or two.
> Anna: Lol... Good on drinks
> Kurt: Not yet, but close. You are good AP look me up when you in Clev (AP is a nickname I had for her that apparently he does too)
> Kurt: had fun tonight. Hope you did too. Sorry for the awful pizza.
> Anna: So Feb 6-7 I am back... save the date!
> Anna: I had fun too
> Kurt: I will... And dinner will be planned much better
> Anna:
> Kurt: drinks at "xxxx bar" maybe skip
> Kurt: outside the lines- you are good- you will do well.
> Kurt: next time you and I just hang.
> Anna: outside the lines??
> Kurt: of work. Of political correctness. Where I can tell you you are pretty and it is ok.
> Anna: it was just you and I? (She is questioning because they were alone 5-10' then at 10 his girlfriend came out to drive him home, it was the three of them 10-11)
> Kurt: yes - until you got hammered... Or until I did.
> Anna: lol you did
> Kurt: I got the delicious pizza for us. (Sarcasm - the pizza was terrible)
> Anna: ok going to bed now
> Kurt: next time we eat in your room. Easier to trust room service.
> Kurt: Later AP
> Anna:
> Anna: don't forget me because you are gone now!
> Kurt: you're cute. Have a good night sweetie. Sorry I missed on dinner. Order at hotel. Next time in town let me know.
> Kurt: I will do the same. I have some friends by you now. In "your town"
> Anna: already in bed... No dinner tonight.
> Kurt: And that is somehow hot. The dinner part my bad. But the bed part...
> Kurt: it is early now that I see it. What do you sleep in?
> Anna: seriously you are in the car with "girlfriend"
> Kurt: Umm... I am home. I live 15 minutes away. You should come hang. I will cook dinner. (I do not know if he lives with girlfriend)
> Anna: so it is "Albany College" pajama pants. Now that is TMI
> Kurt: that is cute... And I liked holding your hand. Different, now but had fun. Hope you did too. I want to see.
> Anna: to see?
> Kurt: Albany College pants
> Anna: I have to delete this conversation.
> Kurt: I have heard that before. Usually it is from "boss" but glad it's u now
> Anna: 12:05 am lol. Hope you are around when I am back here.
> 
> She then had to get to airport early for early flight home. There were exchanges that morning about how hung over they feel, need to eat etc. when she got back that morning I confronted her (next post)


Showed this to a coworker who is your age, married same time, 2 kids as well what he thought of it.

He read it and said this guy was out and out after your wife and no doubt he would have gone straight to him (even if he hasd to catch a flight) and Kurt loses a few teeth. Next, a much better explination than you got from wife.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Yes I know he was after my wife, and she at a minimum didn't discourage any of it, and was in fact encouraging him. Long established.

Yes I suppose I could have gone and punched him out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 3putt

PhillyGuy13 said:


> She knows the conversation was extremely inappropriate. A lot of tears shed since. *She still that he tried grabbing her hand as they were walking into another bar, and she immediately pulled away - that that is the hand holding. Swears up and down. It doesn't make sense to me but I've moved on.* Immediately = 5 seconds? Who knows.


I'm sorry Philly, but the above simple doesn't jibe with this...



PhillyGuy13 said:


> Kurt: that is cute... *And I liked holding your hand.* Different, now but had fun. Hope you did too. I want to see.


Those aren't typically the words a man would say to a woman after getting rejected for trying to hold hands.

Maybe I making something out of nothing, but it just doesn't compute to me.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Nope 3putt that was my argument for months. She's sticking with her story.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Yes I know he was after my wife, and she at a minimum didn't discourage any of it, and was in fact encouraging him. Long established.
> 
> Yes I suppose I could have gone and punched him out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well this was so many months ago and she did not respond to his latest attempt I say for now let it go.

3Putt made a good observation though there was something brewing at that time.
You say things are okay now.
Assuming no more contact let it go.


----------



## tom67

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Nope 3putt that was my argument for months. She's sticking with her story.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yea like Bill Clinton


----------



## PhillyGuy13

I... Did not... Hold hands... With that... POSOM!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Nope 3putt that was my argument for months. She's sticking with her story.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Did she say "that's my story and I'm sticking to it?"


----------



## Q tip

PG,

Don't let all the opinions get you angry or relive events. Good to share and read here. Lots of opinions. The PIs evidence is huge and great information that counters much of what's being said here. Get him scheduled for the next trip. Zero issues with that at all. Or you go with her for some fun and nights out. (And have the PI on the job anyway! LOL)


----------



## thatbpguy

PG13, I am glad this seems to have resolved itself and all, but I have a random question.

As you consider all that has been said between you and your wife, had you not intercepted the texts at all- in fact, if she came home and you said, "how was the evening?", and she said, "meh, ok.", and that ended the conversation.... what are the chances he continues to text her and she continues to reply... and then does she at some point in time go to visit him? I mean, even if she thinks of it all as seeing a good friend knowing he's blowing hard up her skirt and her all the while thinking she can handle his advances... And if so, does she make some excuse to you about going to see a girlfriend so as not to upset you (because, in her mind he's just a close friend...)?

Now, I say this NOT because I'm trying to get wrong thoughts into your head, but for someone demanding your full and blind trust, she was egging him on fully. That is clear. But what I am getting at, I suppose, is this....

Is your relationship such that she would never betray you? Does she feel like flirting and leading men on is OK so long as she 'knows her limits and boundaries'? Are you fully convinced she will never have contact again with Kurt? Or any other man?

I am sure you can trust your gut on this, but what this says to me is that she may have looser boundaries than I would feel comfortable with with respect to men 'friends'.


----------



## thummper

Damn. To be honest this is one thread I sincerely hoped would never start up again.


----------



## bigbearsfan

thummper said:


> Damn. To be honest this is one thread I sincerely hoped would never start up again.


Me too!


----------



## warlock07

PhillyGuy13 said:


> I'm going to put him on notice, once LinkedIn issue resolves.
> 
> Basically:
> 
> "Dude. Leave my wife alone. I saw your texts to her last November. No, they were not innocent. You wanted to be alone in her hotel room and you wanted pics of her in her pajamas.
> 
> I am not comfortable with this friendship anymore. I don't think it is the best interests of her marriage and my family that you contact her anytime.
> 
> cc: wife
> 
> 
> Or better yet, make her send it and cc me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



made some changes


----------



## thatbpguy

warlock07 said:


> made some changes


How's this for making some changes...

Kurt, you're blowing up my wife's skirt and even though she enjoys the attention, it's over. Two choices- either never under any pretext contact her again, or, do so and you will meet me in a painful way I promise you will live to regret.

PG13


----------



## TRy

PhillyGuy13 said:


> I... Did not... Hold hands... With that... POSOM!!


 If that were true, the time for her to have said that was when the the other man said "And I liked holding your hand. Different, now but had fun. Hope you did too." But instead of telling him that they "Did not... Hold hands", she told him that "I have to delete this conversation." Sorry but there is no doubt that they held hands. Funny how cheater ignore solid proof and continue with the lie in the belief that as long as they do not admit it you cannot hold them accountable; that only works if what you think does not matter.


----------



## thatbpguy

TRy said:


> If that were true, the time for her to have said that was when the the other man said "And I liked holding your hand. Different, now but had fun. Hope you did too." But instead of telling him that they "Did not... Hold hands", she told him that "I have to delete this conversation." Sorry but there is no doubt that they held hands. Funny how cheater ignore solid proof and continue with the lie in the belief that as long as they do not admit it you cannot hold them accountable; that only works if what you think does not matter.


Now, just for kicks & giggles, let me try a counterpoint.

Let us assume that it is just as she said- he tried to hold her hand but she took hers away when she realized what he was doing. If we assume that, then she feels no need to correct him as it is clear he knows the truth. Maybe he was jabbing at her a bit in jest and she simply chooses to ignore it rather that converse about it. That makes sense to me.

But what worries me is that she was not only encouraging him to try and get in her panties, but noting she could come and visit him. Now, to be fair, she may mean that in a friendship way, but even so it was a grossly inappropriate thing to say and makes me wonder if she wasn't at least willing to continue the 'game' of chase, as it were. A proper woman would have cut him off and not volunteered to possibly come for a visit with a man openly propositioning her. It makes it seem (and, clearly) that she was open to further wooing and where it eventually leads.

I hate to say this, but I suspect she is more open to that idea than PG13 may be willing to acknowledge. And, PG13, if you read this, I am not trying to insult you or your marriage- just responding to what the posts say to me.


----------



## Yeswecan

Sadly W had/has the opportunity to rebuild trust with the contact by OM via LinkedIn. She feels PG13 might get angry or overreact if she advises PG13 that OM contacted her. I don't know how W can logically assume PG13 will overreact. He asked to be advised if contact was made. How can PG13 overreact to that? The reaction would be remove him from W LinkedIn page or simply ignore the message. Thank you for advising me and let me know if contact via LinkedIn or any other means continues.

I hope W really understands she brought some toxic crap home from the night of drinking with the xboss. It is up to her to clear the toxic crap.


----------



## thatbpguy

Yeswecan said:


> I hope W really understands she brought some toxic crap home from the night of drinking with the xboss. It is up to her to clear the toxic crap.


Good post. And therein lies the hope.

Except for some grossly inappropriate flirting, nothing happened (I do wonder if they kissed each other goodnight or held each other too long at the end of the night- but I am NOT NOT NOT starting down that road) and this is something that can lead to her reconsidering her boundaries and committments in her marriage. And maybe this will also bring PG13 closer to her as well.

I see a lot of positives potentially from all this.


----------



## Yeswecan

thatbpguy said:


> Good post. And therein lies the hope.
> 
> Except for some grossly inappropriate flirting, nothing happened (I do wonder if they kissed each other goodnight or held each other too long at the end of the night- but I am NOT NOT NOT starting down that road) and this is something that can lead to her reconsidering her boundaries and committments in her marriage. And maybe this will also bring PG13 closer to her as well.
> 
> I see a lot of positives potentially from all this.


I will maintain as I have in this entire exchange that something was budding here. Specifically now that there was no superior/worker relationship the rules and regulations of said company they worked for no longer apply. The discovery of the text messages was key in curtailing it. 

I have a lot of hope here as well. PG13 W has a perfect opportunity to level the trust field by telling PG13. I hope she takes that road. An new understanding is achieved. PG13 and W start a new level of intimacy in their marriage.


----------



## TRy

thatbpguy said:


> Let us assume that it is just as she said- he tried to hold her hand but she took hers away when she realized what he was doing. If we assume that, then she feels no need to correct him as it is clear he knows the truth. Maybe he was jabbing at her a bit in jest and she simply chooses to ignore it rather that converse about it. That makes sense to me.


 Reading the entire text, assuming that does not make sense.


----------



## thatbpguy

Yeswecan said:


> I will maintain as I have in this entire exchange that something was budding here.


Either that or it was just a momentary leave of good senses by PG13's wife.


----------



## TRy

thatbpguy said:


> Either that or it was just a momentary leave of good senses by PG13's wife.


 Her wanting to schedule to see him again, makes it more than momentary.


----------



## Tobyboy

Why not just say "hey wife, I just noticed pos sent you a LinkedIn request, are you going to respond? Has he contacted you at all these past 8 months?"
Let's see if she'll lie or tell the truth.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## thatbpguy

TRy said:


> Her wanting to schedule to see him again, makes it more than momentary.


THat's assuming she was making definate plans or maybe she was just getting wrapped up in the texting.


----------



## tom67

thatbpguy said:


> THat's assuming she was making definate plans or maybe she was just getting wrapped up in the texting.


That's a slippery slope when your SO finds the texts and has to wonder what else went on.:slap:


----------



## TRy

thatbpguy said:


> THat's assuming she was making definate plans or maybe she was just getting wrapped up in the texting.


 I assumed nothing. She had definite plans to see him again in February.


----------



## workindad

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Nope 3putt that was my argument for months. She's sticking with her story.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This part of her story does not pass the sniff test. Why would a man fondly ponder upon a rejection with the person who rejected him...

Speaking only from my experience, there is a reason situations like this do not make sense. In my case is was because my XWW was lying her a$$ off. 

Has she told you about his recent contact yet? Not suggesting that you should ask, just wondering if she is going to honor her committment.

He was definitely trying to get your wife.


----------



## thatbpguy

TRy said:


> I assumed nothing. She had definite plans to see him again in February.


That's an assumption, I think. Or did I miss something? Is there a text from her to him about plans to meet?


----------



## TRy

thatbpguy said:


> That's an assumption, I think. Or did I miss something? Is there a text from her to him about plans to meet?


You missed something. See the OP's second post on this thread (Post#4). It stated in part:


PhillyGuy13 said:


> I said you have made plans to see him again. She says he is her friend. She says in February a third "female coworker" will also be with them so he couldn't try anything, and even if he did I need to trust that she would never ever do anything. I said I would rather you not see him at all.
> 
> So I've barely slept for two weeks. Two nights ago we are at her parents. It was still eating at me. Again I got the I would never jeopardize our family speech. I said then comply with my request and don't see him anymore. She said fine! But it's like you don't trust me!!


 As you can see there were definite plans by the wife to see the other man in February until the OP made an issue of it.


----------



## Q tip

TRy said:


> You missed something. See the OP's second post on this thread (Post#4). It stated in part:
> As you can see there were definite plans by the wife to see the other man in February until the OP made an issue of it.


And PG stepped in and it was resolved. Proof with PI. The only thing today is the linkedin request. Nothing more. PG W has not informed PG that's the only thing. She is innocent of getting the request and merely needs to inform PG of it. Give her a chance.


----------



## 3putt

Q tip said:


> And PG stepped in and it was resolved. Proof with PI. The only thing today is the linkedin request. Nothing more. PG W has not informed PG that's the only thing. She is innocent of getting the request and merely needs to inform PG of it. Give her a chance.


No, it wasn't resolved with full disclosure and honesty on her part. She only copped to what he could prove, as we've seen so many times here. She had her chance TWICE to be completely upfront with him (discovery and now), and she didn't come through either time.

PG still has a problem, but thankfully, he's fully aware of it.


----------



## thatbpguy

3putt said:


> No, it wasn't resolved with full disclosure and honesty on her part. She only copped to what he could prove, as we've seen so many times here. She had her chance TWICE to be completely upfront with him (discovery and now), and she didn't come through either time.
> 
> PG still has a problem, but thankfully, he's fully aware of it.


I hope things work out for both of them.


----------



## tom67

thatbpguy said:


> I hope things work out for both of them.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## alexm

3putt said:


> No, it wasn't resolved with full disclosure and honesty on her part. She only copped to what he could prove, as we've seen so many times here. She had her chance TWICE to be completely upfront with him (discovery and now), and she didn't come through either time.
> 
> PG still has a problem, but thankfully, he's fully aware of it.


That's definitely concerning, and man is this ever a tough one. I honestly don't know what I'd do at this point if I were PG.

It certainly does seem like it's over, though, so that's good. But definitely not enough time to stop being vigilant.

I do still maintain that nothing (too) physical happened. That part just doesn't seem to add up. Flirting? Definitely, with both parties. Touching in a non-sexual way? Certainly seems like it. Kissing? I'd venture to say probably... Hugging? At the very least. Sexual contact of any kind? Doesn't seem like it.

PG W is hiding something, and it's not just guilt over what she's been "caught" with. That concerns me, as it should him.

The way I see it is this: OM mentors PG W at work - whether it was legit or with an agenda doesn't really matter. I would guess legit, as it's hard to back somebody when they're not good at their job. Regardless, PG W is taken by this, as she should be. Somebody stuck their neck out for her, career-wise, and that's fairly rare.

Now, I don't believe she initially thought anything of it, other than professional thoughts. What he did for her didn't automatically make him attractive to her. But it did make her like him even more than she already may have.

Now from that point on, she couldn't say no to him. That's just the way it is. A superior helps you with your career, ostensibly "sees something in you" and helps you along, mentors you. Like it or not, you owe them loyalty. They ask you to join them for lunch, you can't say no.

Now whether Kurt recognized this from the beginning, realized it somewhere in the middle, or this was his plan all along doesn't really matter. No matter what his agenda was (if there even was one), there is now that type of relationship. He has something over her, no matter how positive it is. And PG W felt this too. She HAD to be nice to him, go along with him, not piss him off, etc. I am not a woman in the work world, but I know plenty, and I have heard many a story of the intricacies of working for men.

I honestly believe that this is two things happening at once:

- PG W seeing someone who she believes to be looking out for her, mentoring her, helping her with her career advancements, all of that, and thusly developing non-professional feelings for him. While everybody else passed her by in the office, he recognized her potential, skills, work, etc. and he singled her out for promotion and career advancement. I would feel special, too.

- PG W feeling that she has to appease him, and as long as she doesn't cross any major boundaries, all is good in career-land.

I honestly believe that she feels guilt about all of this, but also feels like she was caught between a rock and a hard place, as well.

I think what is keeping her from giving PG the FULL rundown with all the details is guilt. She doesn't want to relive it. She wants it to go away and to forget about it.

I'd much rather have a wife who had a minor EA, got caught and FELT GUILTY about it, then one who doesn't and makes excuses for her behavior.

I suggest to drop it with her, PG, but remain vigilant nonetheless. You know what the warning signs are now. Just don't bug her about it any longer. And IF there's a next time, with Kurt or anybody else (which I strongly doubt there would be), then she gets no quarter.


----------



## tom67

alexm said:


> That's definitely concerning, and man is this ever a tough one. I honestly don't know what I'd do at this point if I were PG.
> 
> It certainly does seem like it's over, though, so that's good. But definitely not enough time to stop being vigilant.
> 
> I do still maintain that nothing (too) physical happened. That part just doesn't seem to add up. Flirting? Definitely, with both parties. Touching in a non-sexual way? Certainly seems like it. Kissing? I'd venture to say probably... Hugging? At the very least. Sexual contact of any kind? Doesn't seem like it.
> 
> PG W is hiding something, and it's not just guilt over what she's been "caught" with. That concerns me, as it should him.
> 
> The way I see it is this: OM mentors PG W at work - whether it was legit or with an agenda doesn't really matter. I would guess legit, as it's hard to back somebody when they're not good at their job. Regardless, PG W is taken by this, as she should be. Somebody stuck their neck out for her, career-wise, and that's fairly rare.
> 
> Now, I don't believe she initially thought anything of it, other than professional thoughts. What he did for her didn't automatically make him attractive to her. But it did make her like him even more than she already may have.
> 
> Now from that point on, she couldn't say no to him. That's just the way it is. A superior helps you with your career, ostensibly "sees something in you" and helps you along, mentors you. Like it or not, you owe them loyalty. They ask you to join them for lunch, you can't say no.
> 
> Now whether Kurt recognized this from the beginning, realized it somewhere in the middle, or this was his plan all along doesn't really matter. No matter what his agenda was (if there even was one), there is now that type of relationship. He has something over her, no matter how positive it is. And PG W felt this too. She HAD to be nice to him, go along with him, not piss him off, etc. I am not a woman in the work world, but I know plenty, and I have heard many a story of the intricacies of working for men.
> 
> I honestly believe that this is two things happening at once:
> 
> - PG W seeing someone who she believes to be looking out for her, mentoring her, helping her with her career advancements, all of that, and thusly developing non-professional feelings for him. While everybody else passed her by in the office, he recognized her potential, skills, work, etc. and he singled her out for promotion and career advancement. I would feel special, too.
> 
> - PG W feeling that she has to appease him, and as long as she doesn't cross any major boundaries, all is good in career-land.
> 
> I honestly believe that she feels guilt about all of this, but also feels like she was caught between a rock and a hard place, as well.
> 
> I think what is keeping her from giving PG the FULL rundown with all the details is guilt. She doesn't want to relive it. She wants it to go away and to forget about it.
> 
> I'd much rather have a wife who had a minor EA, got caught and FELT GUILTY about it, then one who doesn't and makes excuses for her behavior.
> 
> I suggest to drop it with her, PG, but remain vigilant nonetheless. You know what the warning signs are now. Just don't bug her about it any longer. And IF there's a next time, with Kurt or anybody else (which I strongly doubt there would be), then she gets no quarter.


That's what I was saying just not as well as you.
It was definitely borderline THEN.
That's why we have been asking him how things are now.
Death of a baby and her health issues back then aside.


----------



## thatbpguy

alexm said:


> That's definitely concerning, and man is this ever a tough one. I honestly don't know what I'd do at this point if I were PG.
> 
> It certainly does seem like it's over, though, so that's good. But definitely not enough time to stop being vigilant.
> 
> I do still maintain that nothing (too) physical happened. That part just doesn't seem to add up. Flirting? Definitely, with both parties. Touching in a non-sexual way? Certainly seems like it. Kissing? I'd venture to say probably... Hugging? At the very least. Sexual contact of any kind? Doesn't seem like it.
> 
> PG W is hiding something, and it's not just guilt over what she's been "caught" with. That concerns me, as it should him.
> 
> The way I see it is this: OM mentors PG W at work - whether it was legit or with an agenda doesn't really matter. I would guess legit, as it's hard to back somebody when they're not good at their job. Regardless, PG W is taken by this, as she should be. Somebody stuck their neck out for her, career-wise, and that's fairly rare.
> 
> Now, I don't believe she initially thought anything of it, other than professional thoughts. What he did for her didn't automatically make him attractive to her. But it did make her like him even more than she already may have.
> 
> Now from that point on, she couldn't say no to him. That's just the way it is. A superior helps you with your career, ostensibly "sees something in you" and helps you along, mentors you. Like it or not, you owe them loyalty. They ask you to join them for lunch, you can't say no.
> 
> Now whether Kurt recognized this from the beginning, realized it somewhere in the middle, or this was his plan all along doesn't really matter. No matter what his agenda was (if there even was one), there is now that type of relationship. He has something over her, no matter how positive it is. And PG W felt this too. She HAD to be nice to him, go along with him, not piss him off, etc. I am not a woman in the work world, but I know plenty, and I have heard many a story of the intricacies of working for men.
> 
> I honestly believe that this is two things happening at once:
> 
> - PG W seeing someone who she believes to be looking out for her, mentoring her, helping her with her career advancements, all of that, and thusly developing non-professional feelings for him. While everybody else passed her by in the office, he recognized her potential, skills, work, etc. and he singled her out for promotion and career advancement. I would feel special, too.
> 
> - PG W feeling that she has to appease him, and as long as she doesn't cross any major boundaries, all is good in career-land.
> 
> I honestly believe that she feels guilt about all of this, but also feels like she was caught between a rock and a hard place, as well.
> 
> I think what is keeping her from giving PG the FULL rundown with all the details is guilt. She doesn't want to relive it. She wants it to go away and to forget about it.
> 
> I'd much rather have a wife who had a minor EA, got caught and FELT GUILTY about it, then one who doesn't and makes excuses for her behavior.
> 
> I suggest to drop it with her, PG, but remain vigilant nonetheless. You know what the warning signs are now. Just don't bug her about it any longer. And IF there's a next time, with Kurt or anybody else (which I strongly doubt there would be), then she gets no quarter.


Perfect. I see it the same way. No sex, but more than she is letting on. I will also say that I think at the end of the day if PG13 hadn't found out she still never actually goes to visit Kurt unless PG13's and the wife have far less of a relationship than we know.


----------



## thatbpguy

Geeze, if PG13 ever returns to his thread he'll have a lot to answer. We're completely diagnosed him, his wife, the whole situation, their marriage....

We're something around here.


----------



## tom67

thatbpguy said:


> Geeze, if PG13 ever returns to his thread he'll have a lot to answer. We're completely diagnosed him, his wife, the whole situation, their marriage....
> 
> We're something around here.


I hope he isn't back in this thread but only to contribute and help others.
Let's hope it stays that way.


----------



## 2xloser

My opinion: he reached out and took her hand, she didn't take it back very qucikly but did take it back. OM noticed the delay, thought there was much more to her hesitation and put his desire out there more directly *once back in the safety of behind a keyboard*. If there had been an actual kiss goodnight, he would have referenced it. 

Wifey knew she had a moment of letting it go too far flirt-wise, as she enjoyed the attention and the momentary rush. And she knows she didn't shut it down forcefully, because she likes him well enough and thinks she can handle him -- so she feels guilty.

I'm with alex's advice. It's water under the bridge, you're searching for something tiny in the big picture here (did they or did they nit really hold hands) with only a gray area answer, and letting it derail your marriage and your life. Don't. It happened, it was minor but it was inappropriate, she's remorseful, done all the right things since except tell you about linkedin hit. Be vigilant, yes. Hyper-vigilant looking for something that isn't there will just drive you to an early grave. Make sure the punishment fits the crime here. If, if, if if's may all be true, but they are projections, not facts. 

And don't get a damn dog. I know it's not apples to apples, but while in my attempted R I made the mistake of getting us a dog for my son, to bring some hope of the future -- and now on my way to D, I am paying for the dog's expenses, boarding, and vet bills. Not a very bright move on my part, and I resent the dog who has done nothing wrong.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

I don't think there is evidence about the duration of holding hands. My impression is that it could also have been a longer time while sitting in a bar.

In my view there is no mistake about both their intentions. Her 'Fog' has not come to completion by the early discovery. But she was open to an EA with him, and the way the talk was, giving OM hope for more in the future.

I would say OP is right to monitor, but assuming she has gotten a warning shot, and tries to behave more careful, OP should concentrate on improving the relation from his side. Become more intimate lovers, communicate better, build the trust you need in a long term relation.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Nice post Alex.

I will say I don't believe they kissed, will never know for sure. IMO if they kissed he would have mentioned that in the text "I liked kissing you" instead of holding hands. Also he called his girlfriend to drive him home. If it was me, a kiss would be a green light for more, so stay downtown with my wife. Call a cab later if need be.

No, won't be hyper vigilant this time around. Will have my routine, but I can't turn
It into obsession. Not worth it, no matter what.

I am warming up to the dog idea. We will see 

Anyway good advice thank you. Won't be online much this weekend...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Why a lab. I have yet to be around a sporting, hunting dog that makes a good pet.

Hands down, síxty years of experience, German Shepherd best most useful outside dog. Miniature schnauzer best inside dog ( female). Both dogs smarter than most people. Never saw a smart hunting dog, talented but not smart. If you don't want to get attached though don't get either of the two I mentioned.

By the way schnauzers don't shed.


----------



## weightlifter

alexm said:


> That's definitely concerning, and man is this ever a tough one. I honestly don't know what I'd do at this point if I were PG.
> 
> It certainly does seem like it's over, though, so that's good. But definitely not enough time to stop being vigilant.
> 
> I do still maintain that nothing (too) physical happened. That part just doesn't seem to add up. Flirting? Definitely, with both parties. Touching in a non-sexual way? Certainly seems like it. Kissing? I'd venture to say probably... Hugging? At the very least. Sexual contact of any kind? Doesn't seem like it.
> 
> PG W is hiding something, and it's not just guilt over what she's been "caught" with. That concerns me, as it should him.
> 
> The way I see it is this: OM mentors PG W at work - whether it was legit or with an agenda doesn't really matter. I would guess legit, as it's hard to back somebody when they're not good at their job. Regardless, PG W is taken by this, as she should be. Somebody stuck their neck out for her, career-wise, and that's fairly rare.
> 
> Now, I don't believe she initially thought anything of it, other than professional thoughts. What he did for her didn't automatically make him attractive to her. But it did make her like him even more than she already may have.
> 
> Now from that point on, she couldn't say no to him. That's just the way it is. A superior helps you with your career, ostensibly "sees something in you" and helps you along, mentors you. Like it or not, you owe them loyalty. They ask you to join them for lunch, you can't say no.
> 
> Now whether Kurt recognized this from the beginning, realized it somewhere in the middle, or this was his plan all along doesn't really matter. No matter what his agenda was (if there even was one), there is now that type of relationship. He has something over her, no matter how positive it is. And PG W felt this too. She HAD to be nice to him, go along with him, not piss him off, etc. I am not a woman in the work world, but I know plenty, and I have heard many a story of the intricacies of working for men.
> 
> I honestly believe that this is two things happening at once:
> 
> - PG W seeing someone who she believes to be looking out for her, mentoring her, helping her with her career advancements, all of that, and thusly developing non-professional feelings for him. While everybody else passed her by in the office, he recognized her potential, skills, work, etc. and he singled her out for promotion and career advancement. I would feel special, too.
> 
> - PG W feeling that she has to appease him, and as long as she doesn't cross any major boundaries, all is good in career-land.
> 
> I honestly believe that she feels guilt about all of this, but also feels like she was caught between a rock and a hard place, as well.
> 
> I think what is keeping her from giving PG the FULL rundown with all the details is guilt. She doesn't want to relive it. She wants it to go away and to forget about it.
> 
> I'd much rather have a wife who had a minor EA, got caught and FELT GUILTY about it, then one who doesn't and makes excuses for her behavior.
> 
> I suggest to drop it with her, PG, but remain vigilant nonetheless. You know what the warning signs are now. Just don't bug her about it any longer. And IF there's a next time, with Kurt or anybody else (which I strongly doubt there would be), then she gets no quarter.


Agree with most but don't think they kissed at least defining it as lip to lip.

Im pretty sure Kurt was playing the teacher/mentor angle that a lot of Yoga/ Karate etc teachers play.

As long as she does not respond. I would keep it under radar so that if it ever does heat up he will catch it. She is already wary. Don't make make her paranoid.


----------



## alexm

weightlifter said:


> Im pretty sure Kurt was playing the teacher/mentor angle that a lot of Yoga/ Karate etc teachers play.


Personal trainers, bosses, adult education teachers, your kids coaches... and on and on and on.

They all have some things in common - they're paying attention to you and/or your kids. They have a lot to offer in the way of teaching you something new. They're all generally confident people. And they have perfectly legitimate reasons to be alone with you at one point or another.

These guys are out there, everywhere. They may or may not use their position in life for evil, but they get many more opportunities than us working stiffs do. Even if your wife is 100% faithful and dedicated to you and your marriage, there will come a time when one of these guys will start fishing. From that point on, it's up to her to decide how to react. Women in happy relationships still want outside validation and attention (as do men) and it's not difficult to send the wrong signals. If us guys aren't explicitly told to ****** off, we see it as a green light to keep going.

The worst part about it is that most of us, men AND women, find it extremely difficult to tell someone who is being nice to us to ****** off. It's exponentially worse when that person has given you things (ie. promotion).

It doesn't justify PG W's actions (or inactions, depending on how you look at it), but it gives one a clarity as to how it started and progressed.

Again, as far as PG is concerned, this should be a learning experience for both of them. Boundaries are now set in stone. If she crosses them again, then there's a deeper issue and I wouldn't waste my time trying to fix it. If this was a case of innocent behavior that morphed into something that got a tiny bit out of hand and she's learned from it, never to do it again, then good.

My wife allowed another man to cross some boundaries a while back. Not to this scale, mind you, but enough to get my back up over. She thought nothing of it. "It's just the way he is", etc. She never reciprocated, but she also didn't tell him to back off, either. We discussed, I told her what I expect in terms of boundaries, it hasn't happened again, and I trust her. She genuinely didn't see my pov. All it usually takes is asking the person how they would feel if the roles were reversed, and some woman at my workplace was constantly telling me things like "You should wear pants like that more often, they really show off your butt". It doesn't matter if she's 30 years older than me or unattractive. It doesn't matter if she's somebody I wouldn't touch with a 10ft pole even if I was single. The fact that I'm allowing somebody else to verbalize things that only my partner should is crossing a line.


----------



## Turin74

*Re: Re: Wife's texts while she was on the road.*

Yes, these things in common are that they all are assuming to have a position of trust. So they are able to get through levels 1 and 2 of defence/boundaries... and use it. Yet they don't have professional ethics scrutiny of doctors, etc. 



alexm said:


> Personal trainers, bosses, adult education teachers, your kids coaches... and on and on and on.
> 
> They all have some things in common - they're paying attention to you and/or your kids. They have a lot to offer in the way of teaching you something new. They're all generally confident people. And they have perfectly legitimate reasons to be alone with you at one point or another.


----------



## alexm

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Nice post Alex.
> 
> I will say I don't believe they kissed, will never know for sure. IMO if they kissed he would have mentioned that in the text "I liked kissing you" instead of holding hands. Also he called his girlfriend to drive him home. If it was me, a kiss would be a green light for more, so stay downtown with my wife. Call a cab later if need be.
> 
> No, won't be hyper vigilant this time around. Will have my routine, but I can't turn
> It into obsession. Not worth it, no matter what.
> 
> I am warming up to the dog idea. We will see
> 
> Anyway good advice thank you. Won't be online much this weekend...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The single biggest thing I've learned from TAM is to never blindly trust your spouse. Trust and blind trust are two entirely different things.

To somebody new here who is reading this, they might be thinking how ridiculous that sounds. But it's absolutely necessary to not just assume everything is good in marriage-land at all times.

It's also very important to not go overboard in that direction, either. Your partner needs to know that they are trusted, but also not to the point where their spouse doesn't care, if that makes sense.

It's a lot like raising a teenager. You need to be able to trust them, and they need to know they are trusted, but you can't just let them run free. You do need to monitor them, but not to the point where they are smothered and have no privacy. It's a balancing act - too much in either direction and they will rebel and/or make some bad decisions. Adults are really not all that different, it's just that the decisions and actions are.


----------



## Chaparral

weightlifter said:


> Agree with most but don't think they kissed at least defining it as lip to lip.
> 
> Im pretty sure Kurt was playing the teacher/mentor angle that a lot of Yoga/ Karate etc teachers play.
> 
> As long as she does not respond. I would keep it under radar so that if it ever does heat up he will catch it. She is already wary. Don't make make her paranoid.


The possibilities of her responding at work or by some other method seems endless. There is literally no way to know if she responded and is talking to him.

All he "knows" is she broke a promise to let him know if the posom contacts her again and she failed. Speaks volumes. She decided she didn't trust her husband with this knowledge or she had reasons not to let him know.

She may just not tell him to see if he has quit checking up on her

Whatever her reasons, its an epic fail for the relationship.


----------



## TRy

alexm said:


> That's definitely concerning, and man is this ever a tough one. I honestly don't know what I'd do at this point if I were PG.
> 
> It certainly does seem like it's over, though, so that's good. But definitely not enough time to stop being vigilant.
> 
> I do still maintain that nothing (too) physical happened. That part just doesn't seem to add up. Flirting? Definitely, with both parties. Touching in a non-sexual way? Certainly seems like it. Kissing? I'd venture to say probably... Hugging? At the very least. Sexual contact of any kind? Doesn't seem like it.
> 
> PG W is hiding something, and it's not just guilt over what she's been "caught" with. That concerns me, as it should him.
> 
> The way I see it is this: OM mentors PG W at work - whether it was legit or with an agenda doesn't really matter. I would guess legit, as it's hard to back somebody when they're not good at their job. Regardless, PG W is taken by this, as she should be. Somebody stuck their neck out for her, career-wise, and that's fairly rare.
> 
> Now, I don't believe she initially thought anything of it, other than professional thoughts. What he did for her didn't automatically make him attractive to her. But it did make her like him even more than she already may have.
> 
> Now from that point on, she couldn't say no to him. That's just the way it is. A superior helps you with your career, ostensibly "sees something in you" and helps you along, mentors you. Like it or not, you owe them loyalty. They ask you to join them for lunch, you can't say no.
> 
> Now whether Kurt recognized this from the beginning, realized it somewhere in the middle, or this was his plan all along doesn't really matter. No matter what his agenda was (if there even was one), there is now that type of relationship. He has something over her, no matter how positive it is. And PG W felt this too. She HAD to be nice to him, go along with him, not piss him off, etc. I am not a woman in the work world, but I know plenty, and I have heard many a story of the intricacies of working for men.
> 
> I honestly believe that this is two things happening at once:
> 
> - PG W seeing someone who she believes to be looking out for her, mentoring her, helping her with her career advancements, all of that, and thusly developing non-professional feelings for him. While everybody else passed her by in the office, he recognized her potential, skills, work, etc. and he singled her out for promotion and career advancement. I would feel special, too.
> 
> - PG W feeling that she has to appease him, and as long as she doesn't cross any major boundaries, all is good in career-land.
> 
> I honestly believe that she feels guilt about all of this, but also feels like she was caught between a rock and a hard place, as well.
> 
> I think what is keeping her from giving PG the FULL rundown with all the details is guilt. She doesn't want to relive it. She wants it to go away and to forget about it.
> 
> I'd much rather have a wife who had a minor EA, got caught and FELT GUILTY about it, then one who doesn't and makes excuses for her behavior.
> 
> I suggest to drop it with her, PG, but remain vigilant nonetheless. You know what the warning signs are now. Just don't bug her about it any longer. And IF there's a next time, with Kurt or anybody else (which I strongly doubt there would be), then she gets no quarter.


 I agree with much but not all of what you have said. There are two key things that I disagree with you on. 

One, you saying that "PG W feeling that she has to appease him, and as long as she doesn't cross any major boundaries, all is good in career-land", misses the point that the incident that PG discussed happened after the other man was let go by his company. Once he was fired, not only did she not have to appease him, but it would be awkward for him to even get together with people from this company, as one of PG W's friends correctly told him when he asked her where and when they were getting together.

Two, although you say that "I think what is keeping her from giving PG the FULL rundown with all the details is guilt. She doesn't want to relive it. She wants it to go away and to forget about it." this statement ignores the facts as they really happened. The fact are that when presented by PG with the inappropriate texts, PG's W did not feel guilty enough to say sorry, or to agree to cut off all contact with the other man, as she defended seeing the other man again in February because he was her "friend". "She doesn't want to relive it. She wants it to go away and to forget about it." not out of guilt, but because she wants to rug sweep. The fact is if PG did not find the evidence, PG's W would not have told him, and she would still be trying to relive it by trying to seeing the other man. 

Even after being confronted with the facts by PG, do you doubt that if PG would back down that PG's W would resume contact with the other man? The point is that until PG's W actually feels guilty and acknowledges that what she did was wrong, PG will need to keep vigilante which is not a good place for PG's marriage to be.


----------



## sidney2718

thatbpguy said:


> Geeze, if PG13 ever returns to his thread he'll have a lot to answer. We're completely diagnosed him, his wife, the whole situation, their marriage....
> 
> We're something around here.


And on the basis of almost no new information too! A mazing!!!


----------



## davecarter

sidney2718 said:


> And on the basis of almost no new information too! Amazing!!!


58 pages on the possibility they held hands.

Wowser.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Hey she's been on Pinterest over the last couple of days looking up fall decor. What do you all think it means????
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nucking Futs

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Hey she's been on Pinterest over the last couple of days looking up fall decor. What do you all think it means????
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Probably that you're going to need a second job.


----------



## weightlifter

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Hey she's been on Pinterest over the last couple of days looking up fall decor. What do you all think it means????
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I smell rdmu's Bob!


----------



## sidney2718

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Hey she's been on Pinterest over the last couple of days looking up fall decor. What do you all think it means????
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OMG! Say not so! She's going to go out and almost hold hands with a decorator!!! OMG!


----------



## PhillyGuy13

sidney2718 said:


> OMG! Say not so! She's going to go out and almost hold hands with a decorator!!! OMG!


Hey baby want to see my swatches?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## alexm

sidney2718 said:


> OMG! Say not so! She's going to go out and almost hold hands with a decorator!!! OMG!


You're safe. Most of them are gay.


----------



## Philat

weightlifter said:


> I smell rdmu's Bob!


That is indeed a foul odor, WL. Too bad he's still alive to emit an aroma.


----------



## thatbpguy

alexm said:


> you're safe. Most of them are gay.


bwaaaaaa hahahahaaaaaaaaaaaahaha!!!!


----------



## larry.gray

alexm said:


> You're safe. Most of them are gay.


Youtube: BloodHound Gang - I Wish I Was Queer So I Could Get Chicks


----------



## carmen ohio

PhillyGuy13 said:


> So last week a member here PMed me to see how things were going. Everything seemed (and is) OK.
> 
> Then did my usual sweep of accounts. It had been a few weeks. emails, Facebook, iPad, phone. LinkedIn.
> 
> Discovered on July 30 OM sent wife a Linkedin connection request:
> 
> "Kurt":
> 
> Hey AP I hope the job and personal stuff is all going well - Busy times in my new gig but figured I would drop you a note. Keep in touch and if I can ever help with anything let me know.
> 
> - Kurt
> 
> Quoted verbatim . (AP is her initials/nickname)
> 
> This was last Wednesday that I found it. I immediately checked her iPad- she saw the message and deleted it. It came up when I finger swipe searched the iPad. She read and deleted the email. Trash emptied when I went to pull the email up on iPad, but i got it through her linkedin anyway.
> 
> Now, his LinkedIn request is still sitting out there. She hasn't responded. She did go on LinkedIn herself 3/4 days ago and updated her skills and picture. No messages sent or received.
> 
> Then spent 3 days hiking mountains in NH. *Haven't said anything and don't plan on it.* Did take screenshots and emailed them to myself, I don't want to alert her to my vigilance over this. But I'm pissed she didn't tell me he contacted her, especially since just the week prior we had a convo and she said there has been no contact. *One of my friends said she didn't tell me to spare me the drama. Maybe. * *Like I said not going to mention it, since it then blows my cover.*
> 
> Now, there is now way she would accept his request, since I'm connected to her it would show up in my feed. So it's just sitting there. His message seems to confirm there hasn't been contact in a long while. His use of the phrase "personal stuff" is interesting, though I could be reading into it. If I was innocently sending a former colleague a message, I'd have written "family" instead of "personal stuff"
> 
> No - she has no trips to Cleveland scheduled as of now. We will see when November rolls around again if there is a meeting out there. I was hoping to NOT Have to worry about a PI but it looks like I better start saving my pennies again.
> 
> Here's the thing. *I've told her if anything happens, one of us is out the door.* And maybe it's all my time on here. If it happens it happens. It almost feels business like. Not nearly the anxiety of last year. I almost feel like whatever- f--k it. Tired of worrying about it.
> 
> Anyway just venting. Not really looking for advice per se. Keeping eyes peeled while continuing to play dumb husband.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Dear PhillyGuy13,

I really question the way you're handling this. Based on what you've told us, your W was under clear instructions to tell you if the OM contacted her again. He did and she didn't. You've also told us that when the deal went down late last year, you told her that "if anything happens, one of us is out the door."

So what's your reaction to her failure to inform you that he contacted her? Have you called her out and given her consequences? No. Instead, you've suggested a justification for what she's done (her wanting to avoid drama) and said you're not going to confront her because you don't want to blow your cover. So, in essence, you're giving her a free pass for doing what you told her last year you wouldn't tolerate.

Like seasalt (post #716), I think this is a bad strategy. You're:

- allowing your W to think that she can break her commitment to you and get away with it, 

- essentially condoning her failure to tell you and

- rugsweeping her bad behavior.

I understand your not wanting to tip your hand just yet. However, I would urge you to raise this with her fairly soon, before it becomes old news and she presumes your failure to react in a timely manner is a sign of weakness.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Not giving away his best methods of monitoring is essential imho.


----------



## murphy5

alexm said:


> You're safe. Most of them are gay.


wait, that's what they say about hairdressers too, but wasn't someone on here telling about how his wife gave the gay hair dresser a BJ...?

I guess there are varying levels of GAYness!:rofl:


----------



## Divinely Favored

Don't remember the thread title. But she was q work, felt like she did nothing wrong and was proving a point. After all it was not like it was actually sex.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Wife's texts while she was on the road.*



murphy5 said:


> wait, that's what they say about hairdressers too, but wasn't someone on here telling about how his wife gave the gay hair dresser a BJ...?
> 
> I guess there are varying levels of GAYness!:rofl:


Well I don't know what man doesn't like a bj. I don't care if he's gay or straight. Plus my friend tells me gay men still love boobs so......


----------



## PhillyGuy13

So this morning we had a little chat.

She "forgot" her work laptop at home and had to turn around and come back home to get it. Says she will work from home rest of the day. Immediately wants to go upstairs for a quickie. I said I wasn't really in the mood. She says I've been distant last couple of days what's up. She had chalked it up to my mothers visit but she left yesterday morning. 

I said I was playing on my phone last night and lo and behold I got a suggestion for a linkedin connection with his weasely face smiling back at me. Anything you need to tell me? She said he sent he a request and she immediately deleted it. I said why didn't you tell me? We had agreed you would report all contact. 

She said it was because just a few weeks ago I said I would leave her if there was any more contact. I said yes I will, but that is if you contact him. I'm not going to hold you completely accountable whenever he reaches out to you. But I do expect you to report all contact to me. She said she knew I would be upset and didn't want to open the can of worms. I said yes, I would have been upset, but not nearly as much as now. 

Then I got the usual I don't think about him, I don't want to think about him, he is nothing to me, you are the only man I ever want. 

So, there we are.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Just to clarify, there is NO decorator in the picture, gay straight or otherwise 

I think the gay hairdresser thread was fan fiction, there were more outlandish stories from that OP after that one came out.


----------



## lordmayhem

At least you finally got the NC boundaries set up clearly.

She is to report any attempts at fishing by the OM. Otherwise its a lie by omission.


----------



## SadSamIAm

PhillyGuy13 said:


> So this morning we had a little chat.
> 
> She "forgot" her work laptop at home and had to turn around and come back home to get it. Says she will work from home rest of the day. Immediately wants to go upstairs for a quickie. I said I wasn't really in the mood. She says I've been distant last couple of days what's up. She had chalked it up to my mothers visit but she left yesterday morning.
> 
> I said I was playing on my phone last night and lo and behold I got a suggestion for a linkedin connection with his weasely face smiling back at me. Anything you need to tell me? She said he sent he a request and she immediately deleted it. I said why didn't you tell me? We had agreed you would report all contact.
> 
> She said it was because just a few weeks ago I said I would leave her if there was any more contact. I said yes I will, but that is if you contact him. I'm not going to hold you completely accountable whenever he reaches out to you. But I do expect you to report all contact to me. She said she knew I would be upset and didn't want to open the can of worms. I said yes, I would have been upset, but not nearly as much as now.
> 
> Then I got the usual I don't think about him, I don't want to think about him, he is nothing to me, you are the only man I ever want.
> 
> So, there we are.


You should believe her!


----------



## Q tip

I'm happy she asked about you. She is sensitive to you. Handled in the best way. TAM does tend to over-react for good reason - but still does tend to assume guilt. But you know your W better. 

Reward her for communicating (finally). Boundaries are a special thing when used by couples. Keeps the evil of the world out of your lives. Keep the open communications going now this has been explained.

Make sure the open linkedin request is carefully deleted. To easy to accidentally accept.


----------



## thatbpguy

PhillyGuy13 said:


> So this morning we had a little chat.
> 
> She "forgot" her work laptop at home and had to turn around and come back home to get it. Says she will work from home rest of the day. Immediately wants to go upstairs for a quickie. I said I wasn't really in the mood. She says I've been distant last couple of days what's up. She had chalked it up to my mothers visit but she left yesterday morning.
> 
> I said I was playing on my phone last night and lo and behold I got a suggestion for a linkedin connection with his weasely face smiling back at me. Anything you need to tell me? She said he sent he a request and she immediately deleted it. I said why didn't you tell me? We had agreed you would report all contact.
> 
> She said it was because just a few weeks ago I said I would leave her if there was any more contact. I said yes I will, but that is if you contact him. I'm not going to hold you completely accountable whenever he reaches out to you. But I do expect you to report all contact to me. She said she knew I would be upset and didn't want to open the can of worms. I said yes, I would have been upset, but not nearly as much as now.
> 
> Then I got the usual I don't think about him, I don't want to think about him, he is nothing to me, you are the only man I ever want.
> 
> So, there we are.


So know she probably knows you are checking up on her. Or may suspect.

How are you? Do you think she is being sincere? Also, do you think this cycle will repeat?


----------



## tom67

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Just to clarify, there is NO decorator in the picture, gay straight or otherwise
> 
> I think the gay hairdresser thread was fan fiction, there were more outlandish stories from that OP after that one came out.


You handled it well except for the quickie
As long as there is nothing else coming out of the closet.:lol::rofl:


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Well, I basically played it as if the LinkedIn suggestion fell into my lap. Didn't mention any checking specifically. Didn't mention that I saw his actual message to her. Now if passwords suddenly change, then I overplayed my hand.

Do I believe her? Yes. I never really thought anything was going on at this point. But nonetheless I expected full disclosure, and didn't get it, no matter who reaches out to who. That message is now clear as a bell, open to zero interpretation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## thatbpguy

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Well, I basically played it as if the LinkedIn suggestion fell into my lap. Didn't mention any checking specifically. Didn't mention that I saw his actual message to her. Now if passwords suddenly change, then I overplayed my hand.
> 
> Do I believe her? Yes. I never really thought anything was going on at this point. But nonetheless I expected full disclosure, and didn't get it, no matter who reaches out to who. That message is now clear as a bell, open to zero interpretation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe, like my wife, she didn't want to upset you over something she saw as trivial.


----------



## thummper

And hopefully, please God, that settles that! :smthumbup:


----------



## tom67

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Well, I basically played it as if the LinkedIn suggestion fell into my lap. Didn't mention any checking specifically. Didn't mention that I saw his actual message to her. Now if passwords suddenly change, then I overplayed my hand.
> 
> Do I believe her? Yes. I never really thought anything was going on at this point. But nonetheless I expected full disclosure, and didn't get it, no matter who reaches out to who. That message is now clear as a bell, open to zero interpretation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hey if passwords change then you have tough decisions to make.
From what you have said I think you two will be fine and I don't think you will have to initiate...eh...at least tonight.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

tom67 said:


> You handled it well except for the quickie:


Oh, mission accomplished. 

Now, I may be an idiot, but there is one thing that I'm not, and that is an idiot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Q tip

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Well, I basically played it as if the LinkedIn suggestion fell into my lap. Didn't mention any checking specifically. Didn't mention that I saw his actual message to her. Now if passwords suddenly change, then I overplayed my hand.
> 
> Do I believe her? Yes. I never really thought anything was going on at this point. But nonetheless I expected full disclosure, and didn't get it, no matter who reaches out to who. That message is now clear as a bell, open to zero interpretation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And still, Kurt has no reason to believe his fishing is unwelcome. So more can be expected. Maybe eventually slow and stop. That's the only weak spot I can see. 

Wish there was a way (PI?) to get a firm message across...


----------



## tom67

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Oh, mission accomplished.
> 
> Now, I may be an idiot, but there is one thing that I'm not, and that is an idiot.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was gonna say...:smthumbup:


----------



## PhillyGuy13

I could call, or text, or send a message, or have wife do so. And I may. Opinions seem 50/50 good vs bad on here. If he was married- no brainer. I like what BPGuy did on his thread, though I guess we will see if there is any reaction long term.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Q tip

Yah.. Jail time when the coward cries to the cops.

Maybe she does not realize he did not make any vows into your marriage. That's his challenge. Unseat the H, then run for the hills.


----------



## Q tip

Anyway...

Great job. Very small hiccup but no harm. Enjoy the evening!!


----------



## tom67

In your situation I say it's done, in a good way.
No talk tonight at least about this put the kids to bed and "take her"
Then you will do just fine imo.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

tom67 said:


> In your situation I say it's done, in a good way.
> No talk tonight at least about this put the kids to bed and "take her"
> Then you will do just fine imo.


I'll give it my best shot. Twice in one day hasn't happened in a loooonnnngggg time
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Well, I basically played it as if the LinkedIn suggestion fell into my lap. Didn't mention any checking specifically. Didn't mention that I saw his actual message to her. *Now if passwords suddenly change, then I overplayed my hand.*
> 
> Do I believe her? Yes. I never really thought anything was going on at this point. But nonetheless I expected full disclosure, and didn't get it, no matter who reaches out to who. That message is now clear as a bell, open to zero interpretation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If she changes her passwords now, then she wants to be contacted by the, or a OM.

If she where to draw a "privacy" line in the sand at this point...

Well, you won't need a whether man to know which way this wind blows.


----------



## Tobyboy

Good job PG!!! Did you ask what was in the message? Did she include "personal stuff"?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PhillyGuy13

I didn't get into the content of the message. At that point i would have to admit logging into her account.

It's either him parroting back a term she may have used months ago or something he came up with on his own. For now I'm going to make like Elsa and let it go.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

PhillyGuy13 said:


> That message is now clear as a bell, open to zero interpretation.


I kind of disagree. You still skirted around the issue that you can - and WILL - monitor her stuff to ensure she's not cheating again. Why has THAT conversation not been had?


----------



## PhillyGuy13

I want her to do the right thing, but not because I'm monitoring.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Philat

PhillyGuy13 said:


> I want her to do the right thing, but not because I'm monitoring.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Catch-22, because you won't know she's doing the right thing unless you monitor (clandestinely).

I reiterate that to me all seems well on the Philly front.


----------



## thummper

PhillyGuy13 said:


> *I'll give it my best shot. * Twice in one day hasn't happened in a loooonnnngggg time
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Go for it! I have a lot of confidence in you young guys!


----------



## turnera

PhillyGuy13 said:


> I want her to do the right thing, but not because I'm monitoring.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I get that. But here you are, afraid to tell her what you KNOW, because then you'd have to admit that you ARE monitoring. Isn't it smarter just to say 'wife, because of what you've done, I feel the need to monitor randomly, until you've shown a long enough pattern of giving me nothing to worry about. Now we're back at D Day, so moving forward, understand that I will occasionally check to see if emails or texts are being deleted. This is a consequence of what you did and a requirement for me to be willing to stay with you. If that makes you unhappy, you're free to move on.'


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Oh I'm physically capable. . It's just very rare I get the green light twice in a day. I'll be sure to report back, I know y'all are DYING to know 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## omgitselaine

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Oh I'm physically capable. . It's just very rare I get the green light twice in a day. I'll be sure to report back, I know y'all are DYING to know
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Pictures .............. or ummm it didn't happen  !?!? 

Juust kidding ummmmm ............. enjoy !!


----------



## bfree

Philly, what was her attitude when she admitted the contact? Did she say it matter of factly or was she contrite? Since you have to live with her you are the best judge.

I ask once again why isn't there full transparency? Why can't you just go log in and view her emails? Why can't she just pick up your phone and look at your text messages? Transparency goes both ways after all. Why do you need to snoop? Why do you need to monitor?


----------



## PhillyGuy13

She seemed contrite. Wasn't argumentative. Explained her reasoning as to why she didn't mention it; and it was why we suspected.

I haven't done it lately, but I used to pick up her phone in front of her and browse through. I guess it may not seem like it, but I was checking less and less frequently until I decided to do a sweep. This was the first thing I've found since the November event. Everything pretty boring. Shopping. Celebrity gossip. VAR Has been going for a couple days and I will see if any calls are made; doubt it as I never found anything before, and cell records are always clean.

She has access to my phone at will, though it is passcode protected due to my work it's written down for her. She says she had no interest in checking up on me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Q tip

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Oh I'm physically capable. . It's just very rare I get the green light twice in a day. I'll be sure to report back, I know y'all are DYING to know
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


TMI...


----------



## tom67

Q tip said:


> TMI...


:rofl:


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Wife's texts while she was on the road.*



turnera said:


> I get that. But here you are, afraid to tell her what you KNOW, because then you'd have to admit that you ARE monitoring. Isn't it smarter just to say 'wife, because of what you've done, I feel the need to monitor randomly, until you've shown a long enough pattern of giving me nothing to worry about. Now we're back at D Day, so moving forward, understand that I will occasionally check to see if emails or texts are being deleted. This is a consequence of what you did and a requirement for me to be willing to stay with you. If that makes you unhappy, you're free to move on.'


And add to that any passwords changed after the fact = move on as well.


----------



## davecarter

PhillyGuy13 said:


> She says she had no interest in checking up on me.


Really? Quelle _surprise_...


----------



## Yeswecan

PhillyGuy13 said:


> I want her to do the right thing, but not because I'm monitoring.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


From this point on I think she will. You seem very clear on what you want. Such a simple request really. However, previously she stated to a friend or family member she did not say anything because of the drama? Then she said she did because of you D if any contact is made? Maybe the drama would be the D. Who knows. Women are really from Venus. Men are from Mars. 

At any rate, it was handled well. 

Keep tabs. But keep it on the down low.


----------



## workindad

PG13 any hits on the VAR?


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Well. That was fast. Another quick update.

Wife had more managerial layoffs today. She now has a 4th manager in a little over 2 1/2 years. Had a conference call late this afternoon to review all the changes.
While she was out picking up the kids, she then got a text from a number. She came home and asked if it was him. It said "hey heard about the changes hopefully it works out for everyone long term"

She asked me if it was his number since she deleted him. I said it looks like it. (Hell yeah it was). I said you should tell him to f-k off.

She then replied "please don't contact me any more as it makes me uncomfortable" and then she blocked the number in her phone. I said thank you, if he contacts you again let me know.

She's making me dinner now. I feel like I'm on candid camera...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PhillyGuy13

workindad said:


> PG13 any hits on the VAR?


Haven't checked yet... Will try to pull it tonight, but I can go on cell account and check calls.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## thatbpguy

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Haven't checked yet... Will try to pull it tonight, but I can go on cell account and check calls.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


In your case, I think it's good to be vigilant.


----------



## workindad

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Haven't checked yet... Will try to pull it tonight, but I can go on cell account and check calls.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good deal, but remember that doesn't pick up burner phones.


----------



## tom67

thatbpguy said:


> In your case, I think it's good to be vigilant.


Ugh hope there is nothing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Not overly worried about a burner at this point. But VAR is there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Philat

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Not overly worried about a burner at this point. But VAR is there.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I still think all is well, Philly. Discreet monitoring should confirm.


----------



## Q tip

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Well. That was fast. Another quick update.
> 
> Wife had more managerial layoffs today. She now has a 4th manager in a little over 2 1/2 years. Had a conference call late this afternoon to review all the changes.
> While she was out picking up the kids, she then got a text from a number. She came home and asked if it was him. It said "hey heard about the changes hopefully it works out for everyone long term"
> 
> She asked me if it was his number since she deleted him. I said it looks like it. (Hell yeah it was). I said you should tell him to f-k off.
> 
> She then replied "please don't contact me any more as it makes me uncomfortable" and then she blocked the number in her phone. I said thank you, if he contacts you again let me know.
> 
> She's making me dinner now. I feel like I'm on candid camera...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Beyond wonderful. 

Take that wonderful woman out for a beer! Just excellent. And POS got his first notification he's an a$$. 

Could not be happier for you!!!!


----------



## Turin74

Couldn't have imagined a better outcome (apart from Kurt getting a car accident). IMHO both you and wife handled it in a best way possible (including work from home stuff and subject to your afternoon performance  ). If I may I'd suggest going from being worried to vigilant.


----------



## davecarter

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Not overly worried about a burner at this point. But VAR is there.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Burner-phone? LOL. Bit extreme, given this particular situation.
Case-closed, I reckon.
I doubt this guy's going to make any contact at all now...


----------



## warlock07

VAR at this point is not healthy...IMO


----------



## PhillyGuy13

pulled it last night.

Thanks for all the support / really appreciated. Now to solve the dog issue 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Divinely Favored

PhillyGuy13 said:


> So this morning we had a little chat.
> 
> She "forgot" her work laptop at home and had to turn around and come back home to get it. Says she will work from home rest of the day. Immediately wants to go upstairs for a quickie. I said I wasn't really in the mood. She says I've been distant last couple of days what's up. She had chalked it up to my mothers visit but she left yesterday morning.
> 
> I said I was playing on my phone last night and lo and behold I got a suggestion for a linkedin connection with his weasely face smiling back at me. Anything you need to tell me? She said he sent he a request and she immediately deleted it. I said why didn't you tell me? We had agreed you would report all contact.
> 
> She said it was because just a few weeks ago I said I would leave her if there was any more contact. I said yes I will, but that is if you contact him. I'm not going to hold you completely accountable whenever he reaches out to you. But I do expect you to report all contact to me. She said she knew I would be upset and didn't want to open the can of worms. I said yes, I would have been upset, but not nearly as much as now.
> 
> Then I got the usual I don't think about him, I don't want to think about him, he is nothing to me, you are the only man I ever want.
> 
> So, there we are.


I was thinking along the same lines as your wife the way you stated aboutcontact did not tell her to report any contact from him it just said if there is contact you're gone. just saying I am male and I understand the confusion she had about it
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Wife's texts while she was on the road.*



Divinely Favored said:


> I was thinking along the same lines as your wife the way you stated aboutcontact did not tell her to report any contact from him it just said if there is contact you're gone. just saying I am male and I understand the confusion she had about it
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


In a way if that is what she understood to be the situation then her reaction should be viewed as positive because she is desperate not to lose Philly or threaten the marriage in any way. I think I would take some comfort in that.


----------



## bandit.45

PhillyGuy13 said:


> pulled it last night.
> 
> Thanks for all the support / really appreciated. Now to solve the dog issue
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Is she really worth all this heartache she puts you through? 

No woman is worth this. You shouldn't have to ask her to rebuff this guy. She should do I then tell you she did it. I don't see any big victory here. 

She must be one hell of a good looking woman to get all this attention.


----------



## Yeswecan

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Now to solve the dog issue
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Some days I feel the dog is my only friend. Let's face it, if I lock my dog in a trunk for two hours he will still be happy to see me when I open it. Lock my wife in the trunk for two hours I suspect a much different reaction. 
:lol:


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

bandit.45 said:


> Is she really worth all this heartache she puts you through?
> 
> No woman is worth this. You shouldn't have to ask her to rebuff this guy. She should do I then tell you she did it. I don't see any big victory here.
> 
> She must be one hell of a good looking woman to get all this attention.


Geez Bandit, that's kind of harsh isn't it?

He's going by what the evidence is. Flirting and the OM's attempt at a hand hold.

Yes, we all know, there could be more. But PG13 has been her long enough to have a better than average chance at flushing out any hidden truths.

Sometimes you just have to play the hand that you were dealt, if you want to win. Folding is for when the stakes get too high.

I haven't seen enough yet for him to leave the card table yet.

Btw, PG13, if you need to use the VAR in her car - Just make sure that it's secure. If that thing falls out while she's driving...


----------



## thummper

My guess, Philly, is that you and your lady haven't seen the last of ol' Kurt. Apparently he thinks of your wife as a "friend" and is no doubt going to be totally confused by her request that he not contact her because it makes her "uncomfortable." He's going to wonder why, all of a sudden, she's shutting him out of her life, and he's probably going to contact her again to discover what's going on. She never did broach the subject of the grossly inappropriate texts messages that he sent and you saw. Just be prepared for it.


----------



## LongWalk

Philly,

Good that she passed this test.

It's really is about your gut feeling now.

Are you happy with her?

Life is never perfect.


----------



## Yeswecan

thummper said:


> My guess, Philly, is that you and your lady haven't seen the last of ol' Kurt. Apparently he thinks of your wife as a "friend" and is no doubt going to be totally confused by her request that he not contact her because it makes her "uncomfortable." He's going to wonder why, all of a sudden, she's shutting him out of her life, and he's probably going to contact her again to discover what's going on. She never did broach the subject of the grossly inappropriate texts messages that he sent and you saw. Just be prepared for it.


Good point. Cross that bridge when you come to it. Then burn the mother down!


----------



## PhillyGuy13

bandit.45 said:


> Is she really worth all this heartache she puts you through?
> 
> No woman is worth this. You shouldn't have to ask her to rebuff this guy. She should do I then tell you she did it. I don't see any big victory here.
> 
> She must be one hell of a good looking woman to get all this attention.


Well yes I find her attractive. 

Is it worth it? To me it is. I love her, we have kids together. I would hope that if/when I f--k up she chooses to work through the issues with me. Did she handle things perfectly? No. Did I? Nope.

I guess you would have preferred I left the building in November at the first sign of trouble? That's fine. We all have our lines in the sand. I originally came her for different opinions. And I certainly got them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## thatbpguy

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Well yes I find her attractive.
> 
> Is it worth it? To me it is. I love her, we have kids together. I would hope that if/when I f--k up she chooses to work through the issues with me. Did she handle things perfectly? No. Did I? Nope.
> 
> I guess you would have preferred I left the building in November at the first sign of trouble? That's fine. We all have our lines in the sand. I originally came her for different opinions. And I certainly got them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Exactly how I feel. Wifey made a small mistake and is remorseful and we love each other and worked through it.

PG13 that was a perfect post.


----------



## Yeswecan

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Well yes I find her attractive.
> 
> Is it worth it? To me it is. I love her, we have kids together. I would hope that if/when I f--k up she chooses to work through the issues with me. Did she handle things perfectly? No. Did I? Nope.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sometimes it is the entire picture that takes precedence over looks or anything else. There is history. Keeping up with what had occurred I don't believe it went any further than a hand holding drunken stupidity. Boundaries are now established. It is bad boundaries that create issues. The smoke is cleared. One party has a understanding what the other requires.


----------



## Hicks

I don't think is wife is putting him through nearly as much heartache as he is putting himself through.


----------



## weightlifter

bandit.45 said:


> She must be one hell of a good looking woman to get all this attention.


Actually, she ain't bad. Not a model but not bad. Philly on the other hand... eesh!

#emoterunslikehell


----------



## Archangel2

PG13 - I realize I am a late comer to this thread, but I wanted to give you a heads up. Since your wife (I believe) is a banker, is she going to the AFP annual conference in DC in November? If so, I think Kurt might use that occasion to make a run at her.

Additionally, have you had a conversation about Alcohol or other intoxicants (if she was in Denver or Seattle) and how it affects her boundaries? I believe that was a contributing factor to your posting this thread in the first place.

I apologize if I am stirring up any anxiety for you, but I would like to see one of the good guys win one for a change.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Archangel2 said:


> PG13 - I realize I am a late comer to this thread, but I wanted to give you a heads up. Since your wife (I believe) is a banker, is she going to the AFP annual conference in DC in November? If so, I think Kurt might use that occasion to make a run at her.
> 
> Additionally, have you had a conversation about Alcohol or other intoxicants (if she was in Denver or Seattle) and how it affects her boundaries? I believe that was a contributing factor to your posting this thread in the first place.
> 
> I apologize if I am stirring up any anxiety for you, but I would like to see one of the good guys win one for a change.


All of this was discussed and addressed in the thread. Yes, even the potential problems when she travels again, drinking and poor boundaries.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Thanks - yes at this point I've got things under control.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PhillyGuy13

weightlifter said:


> Actually, she ain't bad. Not a model but not bad. Philly on the other hand... eesh!
> 
> #emoterunslikehell


Just saw this - come on I'm the hottest mofo on TAM!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## weightlifter

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Just saw this - come on I'm the hottest mofo on TAM!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Only if I light you on fire.

Lol

No travel for her lately?


----------



## PhillyGuy13

weightlifter said:


> Only if I light you on fire.
> 
> Lol
> 
> No travel for her lately?


Conference in a few weeks... Not the one mentioned above. Nowhere near Cleveland either. Kurt not going to be there. A good friend of ours will be so I'm not worried in any event.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BWBill

_A good friend of ours will be so I'm not worried in any event._

You should know that there are a few "best friend" related threads on TAM.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

BWBill said:


> _A good friend of ours will be so I'm not worried in any event._
> 
> You should know that there are a few "best friend" related threads on TAM.


Gee thanks had no idea. Better get my head out of the clouds then.

So glad this thread got resurected.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Gee thanks had no idea. Better get my head out of the clouds then.
> 
> So glad this thread got resurected.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Eh washington just scored

Anyway guys he has this covered.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

tom67 said:


> Eh washington just scored
> 
> Anyway guys he has this covered.


I was watching the Yankees and Jeter < puke>

Hopefully the giants blow their game 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

PhillyGuy13 said:


> I was watching the Yankees and Jeter < puke>
> 
> Hopefully the giants blow their game
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I also have the white sox and KC on:wtf:


----------



## Chaparral

Are you an Eagles fan? Have you seen the movie SILVER LININGS PLAYBOOK. It is one of my favorite movies.


----------



## larry.gray

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Gee thanks had no idea. Better get my head out of the clouds then.
> 
> So glad this thread got resurected.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Now that this thread is one of those rare happy ending threads on CWI, you may wish to close it.

Just PM a moderator.


----------



## tom67

larry.gray said:


> Now that this thread is one of those rare happy ending threads on CWI, you may wish to close it.
> 
> Just PM a moderator.


:iagree:


----------



## tom67

Just When I Thought I Was Out, They Pull Me Back In! SCENE - The Godfather: Part 3 MOVIE (1990) - HD - YouTube


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Chaparral said:


> Are you an Eagles fan? Have you seen the movie SILVER LININGS PLAYBOOK. It is one of my favorite movies.


My dirty secret is I've never even been to Philly but was desperate for an alias. I'm a insufferable Boston/New England fan. 

But great movie we've watched it a few times. Love anything with De Niro.

I will probably have the thread locked. Any advice to tell me to dump my wife speak now or forever hold your peace...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nucking Futs

PhillyGuy13 said:


> My dirty secret is I've never even been to Philly but was desperate for an alias. I'm a insufferable Boston/New England fan.
> 
> But great movie we've watched it a few times. Love anything with De Niro.
> 
> I will probably have the thread locked. *Any advice to tell me to dump my wife speak now or forever hold your peace...*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wouldn't tell you to dump her, but I wouldn't suggest you lock the thread either. I would keep the PI going the next time she's traveling in his area, if she behaves then drop down to minimum suspicion. She would not be the first spouse to completely stop all illicit activity for a while to lull her partner into a false sense of security, only to pick back up again when she thinks the coast is clear.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Well, locked or open thread won't mean I'm not being vigilant in the future... I believe I can reopen it if necessary in any event.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------

