# Need advice - husband wants BDSM & playmate



## dos (Jun 22, 2015)

I could really use some help and perspectives here. My husband and I are in a crisis - trying very quickly to get in to see a marriage counselor and get help. But in the meantime, I'm a wreck and can't get my thoughts straight.

The backstory: we've been together 11 years, married 8. We have two young kids, ages 2 and 5. We're great friends, don't fight, and have a comfortable marriage. But ever since kids (and the accompanying exhaustion, no time, chaos, etc.) I think our connection has faded. Sex most definitely has - I've had almost no libido since before kids, and I've had significant pain with intercourse ever since childbirth. I've tried to work on both with doctors/therapists/physical therapists, with only very minor progress. I'm committed to continue trying and want to get back to having a good sex life and romantic partnership, and most assure me there's nothing wrong with me. But my husband has been very sexually frustrated for a long time, and has been having increasingly kinky/extreme fantasies for at least a year. I've tried to be open and try some of them with him (handcuffs, chastity). Some I can tolerate, some I can't. None of them excite me sexually (but then almost nothing does). It causes us both a lot of stress... I constantly feel bad and stressed that I'm not meeting his needs, and he's constantly frustrated to not have his needs met and feel like I'm forcing myself to do things I don't want to do. Then the bomb dropped... this spring he raised the question of whether it would be a good solution for him to find sexual release with someone outside our marriage. I found the idea devastating and shocking - I've always believed that's an intimacy that married people commit to sharing only with each other. I told him very clearly that I would work together with him to find a way to meet his needs, but that was my limit - I did not want him to be with other women. But he's brought it up repeatedly, and this weekend wrote me a letter saying he has a deep need to explore BDSM and dominance/submission with other people. He says he still loves me and still wants us to be lovers and partners and best friends, and this would just be sex. I'm feeling devastated and backed up against a ledge. We both want very badly to avoid a divorce. And I don't understand what he's feeling or desiring or "needing", but I understand that he feels equally desperate and legitimately needs something. He is not a jerk and is not doing this to hurt me. He says this is a deep need for him equivalent to someone realizing they are gay; if he were telling me he was gay, I would honor and respect that that's who he is. I might be naive, but I want desperately to find some way to meet his need that doesn't involve him turning to other women. He keeps asking me to articulate why I am so opposed to it (and wants to try to work through or negotiate any objections). And that's where I'm stuck... I can't explain to him what I feel and could really use help articulating or trying to understand.

He keeps asking:
- why does a marriage have to mean exclusive sex?
- why can't he explore his sexual fantasies with another person and have interests outside our marraige the way he might go play guitar with someone else?
- why is sexual touching different than other touching? why is it ok for a doctor or massage therapist to touch his body, but not someone else?
- why can't sex just be recreational sometimes?

This probably sounds stupid, but I would genuinely appreciate others' ideas on how you would answer these questions if your spouse put them to you (or thoughts on my situation). I'm so emotional right now that I can't think straight. And my husband is so logical that I know I don't have a chance of getting him to understand my position if I can't give him answers to these questions. I don't feel I owe him those answers, but I owe it to myself to be able to answer them.

Thanks so much in advance.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Opening up a marriage only works if both people are on board with it. You're understandably not on board with it. After he asked once and you told him no, that should have been the end of it. The fact that he keeps pressuring you about it is disrespectful in my opinion.

Some people in sexless marriages think that going outside the marriage for sex will fix the issue. A lot of this is born out of frustration from a spouse that is unwilling to acknowledge that there's an issue or unwilling to work with their spouse. This doesn't appear to be the case here as you've said that you're willing to keep working toward a mutually satisfying sex life.

There seems to be two issues going on here--lack of sex (actual or perceived), and his newly found fascination with BDSM. Assuming your libido was just fine, there's no guarantee that you'd be into BDSM. He needs to be willing to accept that you just might not be ok with that stuff.

How often do you two have sex? When you have sex, do you enjoy it?


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

What sort of time table do you have in mind when you say you will work on it? 

No libido since before kids, oldest is 5. That is brutal. Instead of thinking of this "bomb drop" as devastating think of it as a desperate plea to do something and avoid divorce, be thankful he is talking to you about it rather than acting. You do need a third party to figure out how much of this is a real need vs. fantasies run rampant due to lack of sex over many years. It think, but I am not a shrink


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## batsociety (Jan 23, 2015)

The thing is, a marriage doesn't have to mean exclusive sex. There would be nothing wrong with him messing around with another person in some marriages. Sex can be recreational sometimes. Obviously what's okay for some people isn't okay for everyone. Neither side is right or wrong, just different.

But when you entered this marriage, you obviously had an expectation of exclusivity and he must have understood that. Now that he's not getting laid as much as he'd like to he's changed his tune. It's really gross that he's trying to guilt you about this. He obviously understands why you don't agree with him because anyone would, but he's just going to keep pushing it until he gets what he wants. And what he wants is to be able to f*ck other people. That's not really a "need" you can meet by yourself.

If I were you, I'd say he can discuss sexuality and relationship dynamics with his next wife if it means that much to him.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

I would wonder why this is not something you would seriously consider. You have no libido and sex hurts. He has a way to keep the marriage together and keep your family together. There are risks, but there are downsides every way you look at this.

My opinion is surely controversial, but it does seem like a win win.

You said "i've always believed that's an intimacy that married people commit to sharing only with each other. '
You have not lived up to sharing that intimacy with him. You've denied him maritial intimacy. It was not part of what was important to you in your marriage, and your husband's thought process is in line with what you have taught him.

But it is reasonable to deny this request. But divorce with him living this lifestyle exposing your kids 50% of the time to this lifestyle is not a good idea either.

Counseling is a good idea.


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## dos (Jun 22, 2015)

Fozzy said:


> Opening up a marriage only works if both people are on board with it. You're understandably not on board with it. After he asked once and you told him no, that should have been the end of it. The fact that he keeps pressuring you about it is disrespectful in my opinion.
> 
> Some people in sexless marriages think that going outside the marriage for sex will fix the issue. A lot of this is born out of frustration from a spouse that is unwilling to acknowledge that there's an issue or unwilling to work with their spouse. This doesn't appear to be the case here as you've said that you're willing to keep working toward a mutually satisfying sex life.


Thanks, Fozzy. This validates exactly what I've been feeling, and if nothing else, makes me feel like I'm not just crazy or some kind of closed-minded control freak.



Fozzy said:


> There seems to be two issues going on here--lack of sex (actual or perceived), and his newly found fascination with BDSM. Assuming your libido was just fine, there's no guarantee that you'd be into BDSM. He needs to be willing to accept that you just might not be ok with that stuff.


Right. I think he has accepted that I'm not excited by BDSM, and says that me being willing to do it (without being excited) isn't cutting it for him. He genuinely doesn't want to stress me out or force me into things that make me uncomfortable. But he's accepted this to the point of writing off the possibility that I could ever meet his needs in this arena, and feeling that his only acceptable option is to be with other people.



Fozzy said:


> How often do you two have sex? When you have sex, do you enjoy it?


On average, I would say we've had intercourse 1-2 times per month in the last couple of years, and I give him hand jobs or some other kind of sexual attention 1-2 times per week. I sometimes enjoy aspects of it. I sometimes even desire it - more this year than for a long time. But intercourse itself is still always physically painful for me, and we now have a lot of anxiety wrapped up in the whole situation.


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## dos (Jun 22, 2015)

I wish I had an answer on time table. I have no idea how long it will take to make real progress, and now I don't feel like anything I would consider to be real progress will ever be enough for him. I realize how hard that must be for him to hear, and not have a time table. Hoping a sex therapist will have a better answer.


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## dos (Jun 22, 2015)

Hicks said:


> I would wonder why this is not something you would seriously consider. You have no libido and sex hurts. He has a way to keep the marriage together and keep your family together. There are risks, but there are downsides every way you look at this.
> 
> My opinion is surely controversial, but it does seem like a win win.
> 
> ...


This is what I'm trying to question for myself. I _want_ to have a libido again. I want to solve the physical issues and have a satisfying sexual relationship again. It hasn't been a choice for me to deprive or deny him of sex. I've tried to give him sexual attention to the best of my ability, while still accepting what I was going through. I am considering it, but right now I can't figure out how I could possibly want to be in bed with him and working on increasing my sexual desire for him while knowing that he'd just been out $%$%ing someone else. I don't think I could handle it. We might be able to stay together in the same house, but I can't imagine that I could still be in love with him and feel loved and want to be intimate. That's what I'm trying to figure out how to explain to him, and can't seem to do it in a way that he understands or accepts. But yes, I think counseling is really the only option right now. Thanks for pushing my thinking.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

dos said:


> He keeps asking:
> - why does a marriage have to mean exclusive sex?
> - why can't he explore his sexual fantasies with another person and have interests outside our marraige the way he might go play guitar with someone else?
> - why is sexual touching different than other touching? why is it ok for a doctor or massage therapist to touch his body, but not someone else?
> ...


1. A marriage doesn't have to mean exclusive sex. If BOTH spouses wish to open the marriage that's okay. But if one spouse doesn't want to, the marriage cannot be opened.
2. He can't explore his sexual fantasies outside of marriage because his doesn't have an open marriage. Marriage means by definition, a merging of two people into one unit. The vows recited include monogamy. Again, unless both spouses decide to open the marriage...
3. Sexual touching can be defined broadly or narrowly. Can you hug another man, or he another woman? Can you kiss or touch someone sexually? It depends on what BOTH spouses are comfortable with.

Listen, you can't argue this with your H because you're either comfortable with it or not. He is, you're not. However, I have to wonder how comfortable he would be if you found that your sex issues disappeared with some other man... 

Just table the issue until you get to a sex therapist.

Your marriage is in crises. Don't make any decisions until you've had several appointments with the therapist.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

I'm sorry but I do not see anything your H is suggesting will work. The vows spoken do not include seeking sexual gratification is ok because it is only sex. The vows also include sickness and in health. Working on a health issue that is no fault of your own is the correct course. You are taking that course. 

Agree to all your H wants(seeking sex outside of marriage)...he can do it all...just not as your H.


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## Lloyd Dobler (Apr 24, 2014)

dos said:


> This is what I'm trying to question for myself. I _want_ to have a libido again. I want to solve the physical issues and have a satisfying sexual relationship again. It hasn't been a choice for me to deprive or deny him of sex. I've tried to give him sexual attention to the best of my ability, while still accepting what I was going through. I am considering it, *but right now I can't figure out how I could possibly want to be in bed with him and working on increasing my sexual desire for him while knowing that he'd just been out $%$%ing someone else.* I don't think I could handle it. We might be able to stay together in the same house, but I can't imagine that I could still be in love with him and feel loved and want to be intimate. That's what I'm trying to figure out how to explain to him, and can't seem to do it in a way that he understands or accepts. But yes, I think counseling is really the only option right now. Thanks for pushing my thinking.


Have you told him this, point blank? Seems to me this is the most important part of the equation for you, and he needs to understand the likely consequence of him sleeping with other people is the ultimate end of your desire to be intimate with him again. If he brushes it off and doesn't want to consider how you feel about this, then you're going to need to start thinking about protecting yourself and your children in a divorce situation.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

There are many men here in sexless marriages who are so frustrated and so unhappy they would love to be given the green light to seek sex outside of marriage. And I believe some of the secretly are seeking outside sex though they don't admit it here. I can't say I would blame them too much.

Yes, you need to locate your sex drive and solve the painful intercourse problem. Now your husband has lit a fire and you're going to HAVE to work every angle to solve your problem or your marriage will fall apart. 

If you drag your feet and avoid working on your problem, yet still want to be married, you owe it it your H to allow him some latitude. If you're really working to solve your issues, he owes it to you to stay true. Or you both just decide to call each other's bluffs and risk the marriage anyway.

Whether you stay married or divorce, you still have to solve your libido and pain problem because very few people will be happy in a sexless marriage.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

BDSM can absolutely be an integral part of a marriage very safely without exposing the kids...unless they find the accoutrements.

Recent text between my daughter and I while I was away for the weekend.

"I found your toy under the bed. Gross Mom!"

"None of your business, stay out of my room."

"Too late, calling a therapist now, scarred for life."

"You can't be too scarred if you knew what it was..."

"Touché mamma"


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

You have some difficult choices to make, dos. What do you think will happen if you refuse his request? And what do you think will happen if you agree? The very positive thing I see here is that he is talking to you about his needs, and not going behind your back. That shows that he cares about you and respects you. That's a good starting place, even with all the issues you have with your marriage and sex.

Some people do make accommodations when there are real needs that can't be met by their spouse, especially if they wish to preserve the relationship. We have agreed to an open relationship with certain negotiated boundaries, for any situation in which one of us can't (or won't - but that's likely to lead to a more negative outcome) provide for the other's sexual needs. We are very committed to each other, and do not wish to be the cause of frustration or unhappiness for each other if there is a way to avoid that.

I can only suggest keeping the discussion going and figure out for yourself what will work for you, and that could range from giving permission to letting him go by divorcing him so you can both seek a satisfying relationship. Unless he can find a way to live with a sexless, fetish-free marriage, of course.


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## EVG39 (Jun 4, 2015)

Lloyd Dobler said:


> Have you told him this, point blank? Seems to me this is the most important part of the equation for you, and he needs to understand the likely consequence of him sleeping with other people is the ultimate end of your desire to be intimate with him again. If he brushes it off and doesn't want to consider how you feel about this, then you're going to need to start thinking about protecting yourself and your children in a divorce situation.


Just chiming in to ditto this. Your marriage really seems to be teetering on the brink now. Doing what your husband requests would seem to push you and it beyond the point of fixing, regardless of who is at fault for the current condition it is in. Can he hold off on all this until you get in with the MC? Can you have an honest conversation with him like this?


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

dos said:


> On average, I would say we've had intercourse 1-2 times per month in the last couple of years, and I give him hand jobs or some other kind of sexual attention 1-2 times per week. I sometimes enjoy aspects of it. I sometimes even desire it - more this year than for a long time. But intercourse itself is still always physically painful for me, and we now have a lot of anxiety wrapped up in the whole situation.


Ah yes, the universal 1-2 times per month Is there some instruction manual somewhere that advises ladies that 1 to 2 times per month is enough to string him along for some number of years?:smile2:


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

So he was to do some things with someone else.

So is it okay for you to do some things with another man?

Has he thought of that? You and he have not had a successful sexual relationship. But would it be okay to him for you to have a successful sexual relationship with another man? He is opening pandora's box and the result will be extremely painful.

Glad that you are still talking to each other. I do hope you talk to a sex therapist in the near future.

(very soon, before it is too late) Good luck.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

dos said:


> This is what I'm trying to question for myself. I _want_ to have a libido again. I want to solve the physical issues and have a satisfying sexual relationship again. *How many years can you expect him to wait?* It hasn't been a choice for me to deprive or deny him of sex.* Well it has, but even if it hasn't does that matter? What is he was unemployed could not support his family, but it wasn't his choice?* I've tried to give him sexual attention to the best of my ability, while still accepting what I was going through.*Your best may not be good enough. * I am considering it, but right now I can't figure out how I could possibly want to be in bed with him and working on increasing my sexual desire for him while knowing that he'd just been out $%$%ing someone else.*You can't. You would have to give him the hall pass and decide never to have sex with him again and divorce when kids are 18* I don't think I could handle it. We might be able to stay together in the same house, but I can't imagine that I could still be in love with him and feel loved and want to be intimate. That's what I'm trying to figure out how to explain to him, and can't seem to do it in a way that he understands or accepts. *Yes, you can tell him that once he goes down this route, you will never have sex with him again becuase you don't want an STD. * But yes, I think counseling is really the only option right now. Thanks for pushing my thinking.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
Really two issues. 
One is that you are lost interest in sex. This is really a huge strain on a relationship. I know that you cannot just create an interest in sex, but at the same time, his is probably miserable with your limited sex life. No one's fault, but bad all around. If that were the only problem, I'd suggest that you do sexually things for him, not as a "chore" but as a gift to him because you love him and want to make him happy. Sex can be uncomfortable if you are not into it, but HJs, BJs etc will keep some men very happy.

But - he has developed a kinky interest. Maybe it was there all along. Maybe the lack of sex has drive him to porn (understandable) and that has generated interest. It doesn't matter, that is what he desires and it will be difficult for him to make that desire go away. Its not clear that even if your normal sex life improved that these desires would go away.

BDSM is really something you cannot do with an uninterested partner, it become simply abuse. You cannot compromise on him hurting you, even if that was what he wanted.

If he wants to be the "bottom", you might be able to do it. As long as he is not requesting something uncomfortable / painful for you, it would not be crazy for you to do what he wants. 

This misery won't go away. Your choices:

1) Open the marriage. This will satisfy his desires, but open marriages are a disaster for most relationships.

2). Tell him he can't have what he wants. You have every right to do so, but his desires will likely grow. Very good chance he will eventually cheat when some opportunity presents itself. Even if he doesn't, he will be unhappy. 

3). Do what he wants. Not good if it would be abusive to you. What is he asking for?

I don't see any other options. I'm sorry, its a miserable situation.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

I like to offer bad advice that is a bit outside the box, as it can get you thinking and perhaps offer a way to get a good conversation going between you and your partner. 

You say he wants to explore BDSM, and you say that intercourse is painful. Would it be possible to find a way to demonstrate to your husband what you feel during intercourse, but make him experience this pain with his body? While your instincts may say this is a bad idea, if this can be demonstrated in a way that is safe it should at least make for an interesting discussion. What I am getting at is to try and find a way for him to experience sex from your point of view.

One example would be if you have problems with burning and irritation, you could subject him to "anal figging" with a ginger root (read up on it if relevant). You could also force him to orgasm repeatedly when he is not aroused as this is what some do to others in BDSM relationships to extinguish libido and make sure the subdominant partner does not get any pleasure. 

Best wishes, 
Badsanta


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

dos said:


> This is what I'm trying to question for myself. I _want_ to have a libido again. I want to solve the physical issues and have a satisfying sexual relationship again. It hasn't been a choice for me to deprive or deny him of sex. I've tried to give him sexual attention to the best of my ability, while still accepting what I was going through. *I am considering it, but right now I can't figure out how I could possibly want to be in bed with him and working on increasing my sexual desire for him while knowing that he'd just been out $%$%ing someone else.* I don't think I could handle it. We might be able to stay together in the same house, but I can't imagine that I could still be in love with him and feel loved and want to be intimate. That's what I'm trying to figure out how to explain to him, and can't seem to do it in a way that he understands or accepts. But yes, I think counseling is really the only option right now. Thanks for pushing my thinking.


It is good, in a way, that he is talking to you about it before he just goes out and does it and lies to you about it.

As for articulating your thoughts on it, I think he may be hearing you just fine. He isn't feeling loved. He has probably had to take care of his own needs himself for a very long time, porn etc. and now he is into something he may not have been into before. You haven't really wanted him or been able to give him the intimacy he needs for 5 years anyway. Not a good situation to be in for either of you. 

I am not sure how you define "trying" to cure your libido problems. Setting aside the BDSM element, duty sex once a month isn't exactly what he signed on for. Is that really the best you can do? Because he is pretty much telling you that what you are offering is no longer enough to keep him around. 

I am betting that he doesn't see himself as having a whole lot to lose at this point by asking. 

He is giving you an opportunity to fix this. What are you going to do about it? 

You don't have much time.


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## dos (Jun 22, 2015)

Lloyd Dobler said:


> Have you told him this, point blank? Seems to me this is the most important part of the equation for you, and he needs to understand the likely consequence of him sleeping with other people is the ultimate end of your desire to be intimate with him again. If he brushes it off and doesn't want to consider how you feel about this, then you're going to need to start thinking about protecting yourself and your children in a divorce situation.


Thanks, Lloyd (and EVG on the similar post). And yes, I've told him this point blank multiple times. And he just pushes me to articulate *why* that has to be the case (why I have to feel hurt or not ok with letting him sleep with other people, why I can't just consider it a hobby or something he explores with a friend, why I wouldn't still want to be with him in every respect if he does this), and that's where I get stuck. I can't come up with the words or logic to explain it.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Hicks said:


> You said "i've always believed that's an intimacy that married people commit to sharing only with each other. '
> You have not lived up to sharing that intimacy with him. You've denied him maritial intimacy. It was not part of what was important to you in your marriage, and your husband's thought process is in line with what you have taught him.


Hold on there. it IS important to her. And she's trying to get it back. She WANTS intimacy, sexual or otherwise, and she's trying to figure out a way to fix the problem.

He, in the meantime, has brought up something that she is absolutely not comfortable with. Bringing it up once? Okay. My bad. Carry on. But he's repeatedly bringing it up. Not cool.

What's worse, imo, is that he's continually trying to get his way by use of, what he believes, is logic. He's not only trying to convince her of something (never a respectful tact to take) but he's also guilting her, which is REALLY not respectful, or okay.

That said, BDSM is a very different brand of sexuality, as far as I know. What he might be interested in may not include any sort of intercourse, or even oral sex. It IS sexual, of course, but OP may simply never be able to provide this for him. Not that she HAS to, mind you. But, if it's such an obsession for him, there are many professionals out there who will provide this service safely and properly for a fee. Yes, there would be a sexual element to it all, of course, but it's not... sex, if that makes sense.

Somebody with a better understanding of BDSM, or experience in that area would be better off to describe what I mean.

Just a thought.

But he's still an a**.


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## dos (Jun 22, 2015)

Tron said:


> It is good, in a way, that he is talking to you about it before he just goes out and does it and lies to you about it.
> 
> As for articulating your thoughts on it, I think he may be hearing you just fine. He isn't feeling loved. He has probably had to take care of his own needs himself for a very long time, porn etc. and now he is into something he may not have been into before. You haven't really wanted him or been able to give him the intimacy he needs for 5 years anyway. Not a good situation to be in for either of you.
> 
> ...


You're right about much of this, Tron. I feel like I've tried a lot (ongoing therapy, physical therapy, medication, other medical solutions to address my pain...) and don't have a lot more ideas to address my libido, other than marriage counseling and rebuilding the relationship and waiting until I'm not exhausted 24/7 from chasing after toddlers. But it's absolutely true that he isn't feeling loved, and I haven't heard him clearly enough until now or made it an absolutely priority to fix his needs. That's my fault.

My problem now is that I don't feel like he's giving me much of an opportunity to fix it. I am very grateful that he is talking to me about it instead of just cheating. But it doesn't feel like he's talking - it feels like a mandate. He says there's no putting the BDSM aside and that's just who he is. He says he's convinced that even if I get my libido back and we have good, vanilla sex again, that won't be change or take away these other needs. He says serious, intense BDSM is what he needs and he's convinced that what he needs is way beyond what I could ever give him at this point and he can only satisfy it with other people.

This is so foreign to me, and I would really appreciate hearing in particular from men on this forum who have been frustrated in the way that my husband is. Do any of you feel the same way? Does he really "need" this particular thing, or is this just a cry for help and evidence of the (obviously) much bigger problems in our marriage? I've asked him that directly and heard his answer, but I just can't quite believe it and would love to hear from others.


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## dos (Jun 22, 2015)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> Really two issues.
> One is that you are lost interest in sex. This is really a huge strain on a relationship. I know that you cannot just create an interest in sex, but at the same time, his is probably miserable with your limited sex life. No one's fault, but bad all around. If that were the only problem, I'd suggest that you do sexually things for him, not as a "chore" but as a gift to him because you love him and want to make him happy. Sex can be uncomfortable if you are not into it, but HJs, BJs etc will keep some men very happy.
> 
> ...


Yes, Richard, this is all right on. Except that I *have* been doing sexual things for him all along as a gift - including some dominant/submissive/kinky stuff. But I don't get turned on by it, and he's no longer ok with that. He says he *needs* to be with someone who is equally turned on by it and interested in exploring. He is a kind, gentle man who no longer wants to ask me to do things I don't want to do. Other than letting him have sex outside of marriage, of course. And although I'm willing to keep trying and experimenting with kinky things that feel safe to me and still might be exciting to him, he's convinced that there isn't anything we can do that will satisfy him. Sucks. That's pretty much the whole story.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

dos said:


> ...why I can't just consider it a hobby or something he explores with a friend... and that's where I get stuck. I can't come up with the words or logic to explain it.


OK, I am going to give you words of wisdom that a shrewd business owner used to use to put employees in their place and make them question their own judgement. Simply say the following:

HUSBAND: Why can't you consider this a hobby?
YOU: *Who told you to ask this?*
HUSBAND: ummmmm... it is just something I want...
YOU: Someone else put this idea in your head and I want to know who? Is this something you read about, it had to come from somewhere?
HUSBAND: ..well I have been reading (You abruptly interrupt him)
YOU: Show me where?
HUSBAND: Fumbles around on the internet.
YOU: This makes no sense, *you are not thinking correctly!* 
HUSBAND: (will feel demoralized and question himself)


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## dos (Jun 22, 2015)

badsanta, you are at least making me laugh today, and that is no small thing. I wish this would work. but he is a lawyer and would never accept my telling him that he is thinking incorrectly. (never mind the fact that I don't want to demoralize him and I believe he truly is feeling what he's feeling, even if his approach is misguided.) :grin2::crying:




badsanta said:


> OK, I am going to give you words of wisdom that a shrewd business owner used to use to put employees in their place and make them question their own judgement. Simply say the following:
> 
> HUSBAND: Why can't you consider this a hobby?
> YOU: *Who told you to ask this?*
> ...


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

It just seems to me like he's given up on you. Probably too many promises of change over the years with no actual progress to show for it, so he simply no longer believes you.

By the way, I find it interesting that when you talk about other things you do for him, since intercourse is painful, you only mention hand jobs. Are you one of those no oral women?




dos said:


> You're right about much of this, Tron. I feel like I've tried a lot (ongoing therapy, physical therapy, medication, other medical solutions to address my pain...) and don't have a lot more ideas to address my libido, other than marriage counseling and rebuilding the relationship and waiting until I'm not exhausted 24/7 from chasing after toddlers. But it's absolutely true that he isn't feeling loved, and I haven't heard him clearly enough until now or made it an absolutely priority to fix his needs. That's my fault.
> 
> My problem now is that I don't feel like he's giving me much of an opportunity to fix it. I am very grateful that he is talking to me about it instead of just cheating. But it doesn't feel like he's talking - it feels like a mandate. He says there's no putting the BDSM aside and that's just who he is. He says he's convinced that even if I get my libido back and we have good, vanilla sex again, that won't be change or take away these other needs. He says serious, intense BDSM is what he needs and he's convinced that what he needs is way beyond what I could ever give him at this point and he can only satisfy it with other people.
> 
> This is so foreign to me, and I would really appreciate hearing in particular from men on this forum who have been frustrated in the way that my husband is. Do any of you feel the same way? Does he really "need" this particular thing, or is this just a cry for help and evidence of the (obviously) much bigger problems in our marriage? I've asked him that directly and heard his answer, but I just can't quite believe it and would love to hear from others.


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## dos (Jun 22, 2015)

I LOVE truly original ideas. Like I said, you are making me laugh and think and that is fantastic. The anal figging could actually prompt a good discussion (and might get him off as well). And forced orgasms... another new concept, but one I will certainly look into.

Thing is, he doesn't want to subject me to any more painful sex. He understands that it's painful and is always walking on eggshells whenever we do have sex. That's at least part of why he wants to be with someone else - so he can @#$%@$ hard and not worry about hurting someone.



badsanta said:


> I like to offer bad advice that is a bit outside the box, as it can get you thinking and perhaps offer a way to get a good conversation going between you and your partner.
> 
> You say he wants to explore BDSM, and you say that intercourse is painful. Would it be possible to find a way to demonstrate to your husband what you feel during intercourse, but make him experience this pain with his body? While your instincts may say this is a bad idea, if this can be demonstrated in a way that is safe it should at least make for an interesting discussion. What I am getting at is to try and find a way for him to experience sex from your point of view.
> 
> ...


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## dos (Jun 22, 2015)

WorkingOnMe said:


> It just seems to me like he's given up on you. Probably too many promises of change over the years with no actual progress to show for it, so he simply no longer believes you.
> 
> By the way, I find it interesting that when you talk about other things you do for him, since intercourse is painful, you only mention hand jobs. Are you one of those no oral women?


Yes, I agree that I think he's given up. That's part of what feels very painful to me, because I haven't given up. I haven't promised change - I can't do that. I've only promised to try, and admittedly not enough.

I do oral sometimes. I'm one of those women who doesn't particularly enjoy it (hurts my jaw), but I do enjoy giving him pleasure and do it for that reason.


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## SARAHMCD (Jul 2, 2014)

Have you wondered if he is already cheating or has cheated at some point in the last couple of years? The fact that he's suddenly insisting on BDSM and he can't live without it seems strange from someone who's only possibly witnessed it watching porn. 

Also, by convincing you to allow him to go outside the marriage would then relieve any guilt he is experiencing. He would no longer need to hide any of his behavior. My first husband tried something very similar.


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## dos (Jun 22, 2015)

yes, he's thought about it. he says it would be fine for me to do things with another man. I have no desire to. Or if I did, my sexual desire would be connected to an emotional attachment - not sure how he'd feel about that. in fact he says he thought about where there's anything i could tell him I needed that would be off the table, and he couldn't think of anything. I have no idea what to think about that.



harrybrown said:


> So he was to do some things with someone else.
> 
> So is it okay for you to do some things with another man?
> 
> ...


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

dos said:


> Yes, I agree that I think he's given up. That's part of what feels very painful to me, because I haven't given up.


At some point one has to either move on or accept what you've got and settle for it. He gave it a pretty good try. 5 years is a long time. But unfortunately he doesn't sound like he's that interested in settling.


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## dos (Jun 22, 2015)

He's told me he's not, and I truly think he's being honest. I think we both understand that would probably have been the easier route for both of us. Then again, he's surprising me with a lot of things so I could be wrong/naive about this. I should ask.



SARAHMCD said:


> Have you wondered if he is already cheating or has cheated at some point in the last couple of years? The fact that he's suddenly insisting on BDSM and he can't live without it seems strange from someone who's only possibly witnessed it watching porn.
> 
> Also, by convincing you to allow him to go outside the marriage would then relieve any guilt he is experiencing. He would no longer need to hide any of his behavior. My first husband tried something very similar.


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## dos (Jun 22, 2015)

thank you to everyone, truly. it's been a huge help to hear from other people, get some impartial opinions, and new ideas. wish us luck.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
Then you are doing all that you can do - it is very good of you to have made the effort.

One more thought. Make a list of activities and see just how incompatible you are. List sexual activities either of you can think of from "intercourse", "blowjob", "Her spanking him", "him spanking her", etc etc 

Then each of you puts numbers on the list separately:
0 = hard limit, will never do
1 = strong dislike but willing to do once in a wile
2 = happy to do, but doesn't do anything for me
3 = enjoy it, but don't mind if it never happens
4 = really like it, would prefer not to do without.
5 = I *need* this to be happy.


Then you can compare lists. Are there things that he feels he really needs, but you greatly dislike or wont' do? Is there a set of things you don't mind doing that would keep him happy?


Of course if he insists on only doing things you actively enjoy AND wants things that you don't enjoy, there is no way out.

Its a very difficult situation, you have my sympathy.




dos said:


> Yes, Richard, this is all right on. Except that I *have* been doing sexual things for him all along as a gift - including some dominant/submissive/kinky stuff. But I don't get turned on by it, and he's no longer ok with that. He says he *needs* to be with someone who is equally turned on by it and interested in exploring. He is a kind, gentle man who no longer wants to ask me to do things I don't want to do. Other than letting him have sex outside of marriage, of course. And although I'm willing to keep trying and experimenting with kinky things that feel safe to me and still might be exciting to him, he's convinced that there isn't anything we can do that will satisfy him. Sucks. That's pretty much the whole story.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

He is asking you *why* because he feels that since you are low libido he is entitled to have sex with other people. He also feels entitled to BDSM as this is where his interests have gone. 

I’m not sure that he believes you when you say that you have no control over your lack of sex drive. He’s feeling rejected and unloved.

What you are going through is something that falls under “in sickens and in health”. Something real is affecting your libido and you have not found it yet. A sex therapist is a very good idea. But, your husband doing this now will kill any success that you might have with a sex therapist.

Also, if you are having pain, and doctors have told you that there is nothing wrong with you, get another doctor. I’ll send you a PM about why I say this.

I suggest that you tell him that you are considering his suggestion. But you need to let him know that if you agree, you will expect the marriage to be open for both of you. If he can go outside the marriage so can you. So you will need to know if this is ok with him. 

See how he responds to that.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

dos said:


> yes, he's thought about it. he says it would be fine for me to do things with another man. I have no desire to. Or if I did, my sexual desire would be connected to an emotional attachment - not sure how he'd feel about that. in fact he says he thought about where there's anything i could tell him I needed that would be off the table, and he couldn't think of anything. I have no idea what to think about that.


Ouch. Kind of tells you where his head is at though. 

He wants you to be happy and is giving you the opportunity to go find love outside the marriage. He doesn't believe you really love him as a man...so maybe you can find that with someone else. 

You don't seem to want him at all in ways that make him feel wanted and loved and he doesn't believe that there is a damn thing he can do to change it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

badsanta said:


> OK, I am going to give you words of wisdom that a shrewd business owner used to use to put employees in their place and make them question their own judgement. Simply say the following:
> 
> HUSBAND: Why can't you consider this a hobby?
> YOU: *Who told you to ask this?*
> ...


I like this... but will take it further.

There is a very good possibility that the OP's husband is already involved with someone else for this 'hobby'. 

He's now asking for his wife's permission so that he can continue it without fear of an affair blowing up the marriage. 

Dos, you might want to start looking for signs of an affair or other outside the marriage sexual activity.

And get an STD test just to be sure that he is not bringing home something that you do not want.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

dos said:


> yes, he's thought about it. he says it would be fine for me to do things with another man. I have no desire to. Or if I did, my sexual desire would be connected to an emotional attachment - not sure how he'd feel about that. in fact he says he thought about where there's anything i could tell him I needed that would be off the table, and he couldn't think of anything. I have no idea what to think about that.


Keep in mind that he might say that it's fine by him for you to do things with another man because he thinks you will never do that.

After all if you find sex painful and have no libido, what's he got to worry about? Right?

There is a huge possibility here that he has lost most or all of his love for you. A lot of men (including on this forum) talk about finding a way to stay in a marriage until their children are 18. They don't want to see their children half the time and they don't want to pay child support. And they basically like their wives so it's not intolerable. Add the wife's permission to screw around, why not stay for a few more years then dump the wife when the kids are grown?

Do you have a job? Can you support yourself?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

His thought process is stray.

Sex can be anyway he wants with whomever.

There are only a certain number of people of a certain type that would appreciate having sex the way he wants with him.

That doesn't include you or most people for that matter.

I could have any kind of sex I wanted with whomever. I just couldn't have my wife and family as well.

Same is true of me. I require exclusivity.

Your husband does want a divorce if he values getting some ass on the side more than his commitment to you and your children.

His attitude about loaning out your ass for other men to enjoy is quite disturbing.

You are not that woman. You are his wife and mother of his children.

He has totally devalued his wife and family to a lesser place than his fantasies.

While I can understand the pressure of sexual frustration, he is going off the edge.

You need to work on your libido and get help for your physical pain during sex.

Being your Hs toy in the bedroom is going to be needed for health in your marriage.

Your H needs mental help to unravel his obsession.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

DOS, what's your optimum outcome here? What's the best case scenario from your persepective? Speak freely and selfishly, it's anonymous. What do YOU want?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Dos, have you called around for sex therapists yet? Have you made an appointment yet?


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## DayOne (Sep 19, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> Then you are doing all that you can do - it is very good of you to have made the effort.
> 
> One more thought. Make a list of activities and see just how incompatible you are. List sexual activities either of you can think of from "intercourse", "blowjob", "Her spanking him", "him spanking her", etc etc
> ...


Like the BDSM test?

https://bdsmtest.org/


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

OK Dos, 

Your husband sounds like someone who will not let this go... I hate to say this, but think of of husband as a child and use "redirection" and "out of sight out of mind" to modify his behavior. In order to redirect his attention, the next time he talks about wanting a playmate, hit him with shock and awe of a very bizarre fetish that YOU have and that YOU want to explore, but carefully choose something that stands a chance at giving you some comic relief:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_paraphilias

For example, talk to him about your dendrophilia desires https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendrophilia_(paraphilia) and make him take you shopping for a bonsai tree or another decorative plant that you can keep in the bedroom. Make it all about you! Tell him to research it online if he wants and see if he can understand it. Just whenever his BDSM/Playmate topics come up, use redirection and make it all about YOU!

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

there may be a lot of compulsions we have that are destructive.

'I like to break things' that's just me; that's who I am.
'I hate authority. I will not take orders from anyone.' that's just me. That's who I am.
'I like to drink. A lot.' that's just me. That's who I am.
'I've been snorting a line here and there since I was 16.' that just me. That's who I am. It's not going to change.

Can we talk about? Sure. All day long

I think it's HIM that needs the therapy.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

badsanta said:


> OK Dos,
> 
> Your husband sounds like someone who will not let this go... I hate to say this, but think of of husband as a child and use "redirection" and "out of sight out of mind" to modify his behavior. In order to redirect his attention, the next time he talks about wanting a playmate, hit him with shock and awe of a very bizarre fetish that YOU have and that YOU want to explore, but carefully choose something that stands a chance at giving you some comic relief:
> 
> ...


:grin2: LOL

You get the award for creativity today.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening jorgegene
I don't think there is a really clear division between healthy and unhealthy interests / compulsions. 

I would not consider someone who discovers that they are gay to be "unhealthy" even though it would probably be disastrous for their marriage. Does the same apply to an interest in BDSM? There are couples who enjoy mutual BDSM, so I don't think the interest itself is unhealthy, but it doesn't work in a relationship where one person isn't interested.






jorgegene said:


> there may be a lot of compulsions we have that are destructive.
> 
> 'I like to break things' that's just me; that's who I am.
> 'I hate authority. I will not take orders from anyone.' that's just me. That's who I am.
> ...


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

This might be an unpopular opinion, but I think that you have created this situation for yourself. After having your kids saying intercourse is painful and not really doing anything about it is not acceptable. Do you just expect your husband to accept much less sex and when you do have sex or do things for him not to be turned on at all by it? Since you won't try to fix the problem, you forced your husband into activities with other people. Why would he want sex with you if he knows that you really don't want to? I think that you really have to put some effort into trying to find out what is causing the pain if you want to save your marriage, but now it may be too late.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening jorgegene
> I don't think there is a really clear division between healthy and unhealthy interests / compulsions.
> 
> I would not consider someone who discovers that they are gay to be "unhealthy" even though it would probably be disastrous for their marriage. Does the same apply to an interest in BDSM? There are couples who enjoy mutual BDSM, so I don't think the interest itself is unhealthy, but it doesn't work in a relationship where one person isn't interested.


Good morning to you Richard!

some people don't think drinking a lot is bad. Some people don't think being anti-authoritarian is bad. But when it affects your relationship and threatens to destroy a marriage, I call it bad.
He is pestering her about going outside of marriage. He is bringing it up obsessively. She's already stated her boundary and he's still bringing it up. That's just who he is.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Jorgegene
I think the real question is whether he should try to change what he wants, or whether these interests are fundamental to him in the way that sexual orientation is.

If the interests are really a part of him, trying to change won't work and they are better off separating.






jorgegene said:


> Good morning to you Richard!
> 
> some people don't think drinking a lot is bad. Some people don't think being anti-authoritarian is bad. But when it affects your relationship and threatens to destroy a marriage, I call it bad.
> He is pestering her about going outside of marriage. He is bringing it up obsessively. She's already stated her boundary and he's still bringing it up. That's just who he is.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening Jorgegene
> I think the real question is whether he should try to change what he wants, or whether these interests are fundamental to him in the way that sexual orientation is.
> 
> If the interests are really a part of him, trying to change won't work and they are better off separating.


Good morning Richard.

you may be right. they may have to separate.

on the other hand. people can change. even fundamentally.
he's got to choose between his wife and his fetishes (or whatever they are).
what does he love more?


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

jorgegene said:


> Good morning Richard.
> 
> you may be right. they may have to separate.
> 
> ...


It is very difficult to remain committed, engaged and in love with someone who does not return your affection in meaningful ways over a long period of time. 

And yes, people can change. What was attractive to me 20 years ago is not the exact same thing as what attracts me now... People evolve. 

Unfortunately, this is what he is into now, and what he wants to pursue. She can get on board and give it an honest try, or not...and see where things go with him. 

Look, her previous record of commitment to creating a healthy sex life isn't exactly something to write home about. He doesn't believe that he has anything to work with. And why should he??? He has 5 years of history to go on.

I agree with Ele and Anon, Dos needs to get to the bottom of the medical problems, be they physical or mental, as soon as she can. Frankly, if she doesn't, there isn't much hope for this marriage. And sadly, if she is inclined to try again with someone else in the future, those prospects aren't too good either. Most men don't willingly sign on for sexless marriages.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

What would you do if you do get your libido back, and you are not into bdsm? Will you consider still letting another fulfill that fetish that he has?


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

my impression (i could be misinterpreting), is that she has been trying and making a lot of effort. that's why i've been giving her the benefit of the doubt and putting the onus on him.

she said in her original post, she's been to numerous drs. and done no good. she's been trying to go against her flat libido. she's on here looking for ways to meet her husbands needs better. she needs to do more no doubt.

but my read on him is that he has been primarily thinking downstairs. i could be wrong. never met the guy.
but that's my impression. him and his oscar meyer. sorry, i just don't give that much sympathy.
i've been there in sexless relationships. i know. but i never suggested doing wild stuff and going outside marriage.
I can't drum up much sympathy for him. he's getting it 1-2 times a month. not ideal, but not deprived
she's trying very hard.

sorry, i'm not buying it. not yet anyway.


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## Vulcan2013 (Sep 25, 2013)

jorgegene said:


> my impression (i could be misinterpreting), is that she has been trying and making a lot of effort. that's why i've been giving her the benefit of the doubt and putting the onus on him.
> 
> she said in her original post, she's been to numerous drs. and done no good. she's been trying to go against her flat libido. she's on here looking for ways to meet her husbands needs better. she needs to do more no doubt.
> 
> ...


^^^This^^^

If you look at any of the sexless marriage threads, the LD spouse indicates that the HD spouse has the problem for wanting sex. OP is wanting to fix things. That puts the situation squarely in the "in sickness and health" area, not abandonment. 

Not sure I understand your H or how far out his desires go. Is this an obsession? Does he REQUIRE kink, or is it a special occasion thing? 

Bringing in other partners is never going to make things better; at most, you can mitigate the damage. 

And, I would snoop and make sure he isn't getting retroactive permission.


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## Mike6211 (Jan 18, 2013)

Vulcan2013 said:


> If you look at any of the sexless marriage threads, the LD spouse indicates that the HD spouse has the problem for wanting sex. OP is wanting to fix things. That puts the situation squarely in the "in sickness and health" area, not abandonment.


No, it's not "squarely in the sickness and health area". Though it may have a foot in that camp.

Yes, some women make it crystal clear that sex is right off the agenda for them. I suppose some think that their H will hang around anyway, some don't care, some don't realise.

Other women give just enough to keep hope alive. I suppose that they recognise that their H *won't* hang around if there's no hope.



anonmd said:


> What sort of time table do you have in mind when you say you will work on it?
> 
> No libido since before kids, oldest is 5. That is brutal ...


One thing that troubles me about the OP's postings is the repeated use of the word 'try' (to deal with pain in intercourse, low libido etc). A voice-track from one of my self-help CD sets keeps coming back to me ... ' Either say "I'll do it", or "I won't do it". Never use the weasel words "I'll try". What "I'll try" means is this: "I will go through the motions, but what I am telling you, in advance, is this: that I am going to fail".'

I don't feel very comfortable posting this. It seems harsh because, on the face of it, the OP wants things better and is .. well, trying. I hold up the mirror to myself and say, yes, it is offered in a constructive spirit and I feel has its place as part of the matrix of replies on this thread. 

BTW googling "yoni massage" might give some ideas for tender loving attention to the OP's genitals.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Here's what I see having played out.

Your lack of desire forced a long-term spiral of porn and deep sexual introspection on his part. To be fair, and you are being fair, this really drove him away, sexually. It would be nearly impossible for him not to feel rejected, denied, and not being able to express his sexuality in a healthy way with you.

I think one thing that people risk when they repress their sexuality for too long is basically going all freaky. Not that the BDSM thing is freaky, it's just maybe not where he might have gone if things had been different.

But they're not different. Even if you work really hard to try to keep him satisfied and have an open mind (and I really commend you on this!), you're not really into this scene, and not really into sex at all.

So you have a mismatch. At least you have enough transparency in your marriage that he talked to you about it rather than just doing it.

But at the end of the day it's a mismatch. He can stay or be miserable, and you may feel like you're sexually holding him back.

Or you let him go and have fun, and be miserable. And he may feel a lot of guilt and shame for doing it.

Or you two call it a day because you're sexually a mismatch, agree to part as friends, and separate. 

I'm not one to usually advocate such a thing, but in this case I think it's something you need to look at. Continuing on this path is just going to make him be more of a **** about it, because he's repressing his desires to stay with you. And you're going to feel more and more pressured to do things you're not comfortable with... and to be fair, you're not really into sex at all. 

And if you've honestly gone down the doctor path for years... well, it's not likely to turn on a dime, is it?

Let him go.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
I think fault is not important. What matters is what each of them can do from where they are now, however they got here. Is there a path to them being happy together?


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