# No sex during or after pregnancy (18 months total)



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Hi everyone. I'm new to this forum and noticed similar threads, but hoping this is different enough to warrant its own thread. This might be me just venting, but this has been really tough for me. 

She just says that she doesn't feel up to sex and that it is not about me. But it's not just sex. I can't even touch her and she gets upset when I try to kiss her passionately. It started during the pregnancy because she was worried something would happen to the baby. It wasn't easy, but I understood and we didn't do anything. That was the first 9 months. 

But then, months passed after the baby was born. During that time, I tried to be romantic, tell her she was beautiful, helped with the baby, helped around the house. I basically did what I could to be a supportive husband and father. I also asked her if she was experiencing postpartum depression and that I would help her and be emotionally available. She denied that. She just said that she doesn't feel like it right now and doesn't see when she will be interested again.

Now it has been about 8 months after the pregnancy (17 months total) and I'm starting to become dizzy by my constant attention on sex. I think about it even more than I usually do and that's all I think about it when I see or speak to an attractive woman. I'm so worried that I might act on something if given the opportunity. 

I'm trying to be open about it and speak with her about how difficult it is, but also don't want to be selfish, not supportive, or pushy. Am I being to whiny about this or would this be cause of concern for others as well?


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

i understand her not wanting it a few months or so after delivery, but 8 months is a long time. and she is openly telling you she doesnt even know when or if she will. i would be concerned for sure.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> Hi everyone. I'm new to this forum and noticed similar threads, but hoping this is different enough to warrant its own thread. This might be me just venting, but this has been really tough for me.
> 
> She just says that she doesn't feel up to sex and that it is not about me. But it's not just sex. I can't even touch her and she gets upset when I try to kiss her passionately. It started during the pregnancy because she was worried something would happen to the baby. It wasn't easy, but I understood and we didn't do anything. That was the first 9 months.
> 
> ...


You have some SERIOUS problems here, dude. I'm hating it for you. You need to confront her about this now, before it gets any worse. Because it will. Trust me. If she's not even willing to be merciful, after 18 months, then get thee to a MC, go. That's more than unfair -- that's bordering on cruel and unusual punishment.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

There's a serious problem here and if she's unwilling to fix it I'd file for divorce.
Actually I would have filed for divorce about 12 months ago.

She's using her pregnancy as an excuse.
Put your foot down for counseling!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> I'm trying to be open about it and speak with her about how difficult it is, but also don't want to be selfish, not supportive, or pushy. Am I being to whiny about this or would this be cause of concern for others as well?


There are really two points here. She convinced you that you are a pervert for wanting sex. When you meet the emotional needs of your wife, then it is not selfish to expect that she will meet your emotional needs. Selfish is "not" meeting her needs and then expecting her to meet yours. Don't buy into the thought that sex is marriage is in any way wrong.

If you are being winy and pushy you are making a mistake. Be proud and confident about the fact that you are sexual and marriages are sexual.


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Thanks for your thoughts, people. I'm worried that I'm at a crossroads here and not sure how I'm going to handle it. Like I said, I see temptation all around me and am worried that I will slip up. 

Marriage counseling might be in order. I'm not always good at stating my needs to her, but I think this is definitely a time to keep speaking up. 

At this point, I feel like I'm raising a baby with a roommate, which feels lonely. I'm getting tired of getting rejected constantly.


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## sxLess (Oct 3, 2011)

I think one thing that a lot of people don't realize about this particular topic is that willfully withholding sex from your partner is a form of spousal abuse. Been there, done that. It does NOT get better.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

I think you do need to be honest with your wife and let her know how much of a struggle this is for you. Maybe she will likewise be honest with you and let you know why it seems to be a struggle for her to want to be intimate with you.

Frame your conversation with her using "I" sentences - e.g., "I believe that a very important part of marriage is sexual intimacy. I miss being intimate with you - that is how I connect with you emotionally. I'm afraid that I'm going to run in to temptations. What can I do to make it easier for you?"

As well, what kind of birth control is she using? Hormonal birth control depresses libido in women.

Is she afraid of getting pregnant again? For a lot of women this is a big concern.

Is she overly fatigued or stressed with the new baby?

Is she breast-feeding? Breast-feeding depresses libido in women.

Finally, how are you going about initiating being intimate with her? Are you working up to it every day? Is it 'wham bam'? Are you overwhelming or smothering her?

Best wishes.


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Enchantment, 

Those are very good questions. 

No, she is not on birth control yet. The prescription is waiting for her at the pharmacy.

Yes, she is breastfeeding and I do wonder if that is affecting how she looks at herself and her body. 

I don't go wham/bam style on her. I work up to it with compliments and foreplay. That's not the problem. In fact, I think I can still turn her on because she says that I do when I do things like kiss her neck, but she promptly tells me to stop because it feeling turned on feels weird. Does that make sense?


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Oh, and she might be tired, but I do let her sleep in on the weekends when I take care of our child.

She could be afraid of getting pregnant, but she could use birth control if she wanted.

And thank you for the communication advice. I think I know what to say, but maybe worried about what comes from the conversation.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> . I work up to it with compliments and foreplay. That's not the problem. In fact, I think I can still turn her on because she says that I do when I do things like kiss her neck, but she promptly tells me to _stop because it feeling turned on feels weird._ Does that make sense?


Em. mine. Disconnect between being a mother and being a wife, and seeing the two as mutually exclusive?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> I think you do need to be honest with your wife and let her know how much of a struggle this is for you. Maybe she will likewise be honest with you and let you know why it seems to be a struggle for her to want to be intimate with you.
> 
> Frame your conversation with her using "I" sentences - e.g., "I believe that a very important part of marriage is sexual intimacy. I miss being intimate with you - that is how I connect with you emotionally. I'm afraid that I'm going to run in to temptations. What can I do to make it easier for you?"
> 
> ...



While I do agree that exploring the specific issues raised above is important, there are almost certainly bigger issues in play. She has rejected intamacy since the start of the pregnancy. Make sure that you address ALL of the issues.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> In fact, I think I can still turn her on because she says that I do when I do things like kiss her neck, but she promptly tells me to stop because it *feeling turned on feels weird*. Does that make sense?


You need to find out what this means. Can she explain what "weird" means in this context? As someone pointed out, this started during pregnancy because she was afraid of hurting the baby and it continues on. Have you two been intimate at all since the baby was born?

Can you tell us what your sex life was like prior to having the baby? Was it good? Was she receptive and responsive?

Is she afraid of it now for some reason? Is there something in her mind that says "moms + sex = does not compute/is bad"?

Best wishes.


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## neutralparty (Sep 30, 2011)

Pregnant women in general often times lose their interest in sex because it becomes more of a chore than a pleasurable and is also uncomfortable. After delivery, obviously it takes a while to get back your sex drive and to let your body heal. At 8 months after delivery a womans sex drive should be increasing if not then I would say there are definately some underlying issues that need to be tackled. 

Your first action should be to COMMUNICATE with her. Get a babysitter, take her out to a nice dinner, order a couple of glasses of wine, and gently let her know what your concern is. Be careful not to make this all about you. Put the focus on her and ask her how she is feeling? Is she happy? ect. 

If she was into sex pre baby and now she is not then what went wrong. Things to ask yourself.... Did she gain a lot of weight during pregnancy and hasn't lost the weight? If she is feeling fat, that could be the problem, but with your help can have a simple fix like eating healthier together, working out together ect. 

Tired: Is she tired? Juggling being a new mom, working, cooking, and managing the household can definately take a toll on your sex drive! Take a close look at how things are divided in your house. Do you share equal responsibilities? Does she work all day, then come home and cook and take care of the baby? Who cleans the house? Who pays bills, washes the cars, does laundry, change sheets on bed, grocery shops. If you both work, then you both should split the chores right down the middle. Sometimes you even have to step in and do more of your share when you know that your partner is struggling and you carry that load to give them a much needed break. 

Romance: Does the romance still exist in your relationship? Do you still open the door for her? When was the last time you bought flowers for her just because you love her and not on a special occasion? How would you rate your dating life? Do you still make time to get all dressed up and take your wife out on a date? When was the last time you offered to give your wife a back massage at the end of a hard work day or lit candles in the bathroom and ran her a hot bubble bath with some sexy music like John Mayer? How about watching the baby and suggesting she go to her favorite salon and getting a facial and haircut? Put the baby down for bed early and have a pretty dinner made for her (even ordering take out and giving her a card that tells her how much you appreciate and love her?

Emotionally: Are you giving her the emotional support she needs? Simply put, for women sex and emotions go hand in hand. If you think about why women love chick flicks so much, it's because there is an element of emotions being played out on screen which always ends in a love connection in the end. Women need to have their emotional needs met in order to really enjoy sex. Another point to remember is that it doesnt take much to get a man ready for sex, but for women, especially after having a baby, it takes some warming up. 

Spiritual: Is your spiritual relationship on track? I am not going to get too religious on you, but I will tell you this for a fact, if God does not have an important place in your lives, then your relationship will suffer. God designed a husband and wife to be together and to enjoy having sex together, He encourages it! If you find that you are not on track, then make small steps to get back there. Find a couples devotional and read a page from it every night. Most devotionals offer opportunities to talk to your spouse about issues in your relationship which can bring about growth.

Depression: Is she depressed? Some women suffer from depression after delivery and have a hard time recovering from it. This will be a sensitive issue for her if this is the case, but you are her partner and it is your job to help her through it. If this is the case then I would strongly suggest you getting some professional help to help her get back to feeling normal again. 


I hope this all helps you!

Neautral Party


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

neutralparty said:


> Pregnant women in general often times lose their interest in sex because it becomes more of a chore than a pleasurable and is also uncomfortable. After delivery, obviously it takes a while to get back your sex drive and to let your body heal. At 8 months after delivery a womans sex drive should be increasing if not then I would say there are definately some underlying issues that need to be tackled.
> 
> Your first action should be to COMMUNICATE with her. Get a babysitter, take her out to a nice dinner, order a couple of glasses of wine, and gently let her know what your concern is. Be careful not to make this all about you. Put the focus on her and ask her how she is feeling? Is she happy? ect.
> 
> ...


Durn if that doesn't sound like pushing the issue squarely on his plate to solve or not, with barely any responsibility for it on hers. This began at the very beginning of pregnancy. She's had plenty of time. This is HER issue, not his, to solve. Kissing her a** isn't going to get him what he wants, it's just going to make her not like him that much more. 

No, there's something bigger going on here.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

IanIronwood said:


> Durn if that doesn't sound like pushing the issue squarely on his plate to solve or not, with barely any responsibility for it on hers. This began at the very beginning of pregnancy. She's had plenty of time. This is HER issue, not his, to solve. Kissing her a** isn't going to get him what he wants, it's just going to make her not like him that much more.
> 
> No, there's something bigger going on here.


The trouble with any approach where no-one does anything because both people aren't is that it ignores a simple truth: The job that takes the longest is the one that no-one is prepared to start.

If both partners sit there waiting for the other one to do something, guess what? Neither of them will. Someone has to act. 

As for it being her issue to solve, well, it might be, but it doesn't seem to be bothering her, so she's not likely to go charging off to fix it unilaterally, is she?


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

neutralparty said:


> Pregnant women in general often times lose their interest in sex because it becomes more of a chore than a pleasurable and is also uncomfortable. After delivery, obviously it takes a while to get back your sex drive and to let your body heal. At 8 months after delivery a womans sex drive should be increasing if not then I would say there are definately some underlying issues that need to be tackled.
> 
> Your first action should be to COMMUNICATE with her. Get a babysitter, take her out to a nice dinner, order a couple of glasses of wine, and gently let her know what your concern is. Be careful not to make this all about you. Put the focus on her and ask her how she is feeling? Is she happy? ect.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the feedback. 

Yes, she is tired. She takes care of the baby (she's not working a 9-5) while I work. But I come home and do as much as I can to help with the baby and her. I help with dishwashing, laundry, I pay the bills, help with dinner. For instance, I feed and bathe the baby. I really am as active as I can be. I also stay up late with the baby when baby wakes up during the night. 

Romance: I'm not bad at romance, maybe I can be better. But yeah, I tell her she's beautiful, am chivalrous, and give her massages. I've also offered to take the baby so she can pamper herself or have girl time with her friends. I've also surprised her with breakfast in bed. I've also taken her on dinner dates.

Emotions: I try my best to be attuned to her emotional needs, regrettably to the point that I ignore my own. I don't stop her from feeling emotions like a lot of guys who are uncomfortable seeing their spouse cry. Oh and we watch chick flicks too =)

Depression: I've been concerned about postpartum depression, but haven't seen anything glaring. At the same time, I check in with her to see how she is doing emotionally. So far it's not too bad. 

I agree that I need to continue to speak openly with her about how much this is affecting me. I've told her it's been hard, but I also protect her feelings and minimize my own.


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Someone had asked about our level of intimacy prebaby. We had a sex life previously, though with ups and downs. Sometimes we would have it 2-3 times a week and sometimes we would have spells when it was less frequent, but nothing notable.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

The Court of Scannerguard will have to come down with IanIronwood this time.

Of course, I support yours and the forum's desire to diagnose this and please listen to the advice and follow it. . .but what disturbs me is she is not trying to diagnose it and yes, making you feel like a pervert for asking.

What concerns me is I think a lot of men will share that it will continue to spiral downward. When she needs a sperm donation again, she'll be up for it, and then once child 2 or 3 comes. . .that's it. . .why ever have sex again?

It's very concerning this marriage is not in a state of consummation.

What I have learned from being here is when a marraige gets like that - it needs MAXIMAL INTERVENTION - counselors, friends, family, clergy, doctors all need to get involved NOW because this marriage will eventually wither away, if it hasn't already. 

Intervene now. Not in a week. Not in a month. NOW.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

IanIronwood said:


> Durn if that doesn't sound like pushing the issue squarely on his plate to solve or not, with barely any responsibility for it on hers. This began at the very beginning of pregnancy. She's had plenty of time. This is HER issue, not his, to solve. Kissing her a** isn't going to get him what he wants, it's just going to make her not like him that much more.
> 
> No, there's something bigger going on here.


I`m with Ironwood.

I guess I should count myself lucky.

My wife`s hormones were in over drive for her entire pregnancy.

She was a raging nympho right through the ninth month.


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## madimoff (Feb 17, 2010)

Agree with the last poster, we made love less than 24h before our son was born and 10 days after but that's probably salt in the OP's wound. 
Although I don't see it as his 'fault' (don't imagine he does either unless there's a bunch he hasn't posted about) I do think that long post ... Neautral Party 's.... should almost be a sticky, it's so comprehensive of things that might help turn round a marriage depending on the woman being 'attracted back in'. 
As to why, the only solution is as folk have said, ask. And continue asking. How to make it clear this is fundamental I'm not sure, other than being brutally honest. On which, do you think she realises you are even half thinking about looking elsewhere? I bet she doesn't. If she doesn't it'll probably be because you're a married couple with a baby and she wouldn't believe that could happen. You just need somehow to let her know how disappointed you are that you haven't been able to show the mother of your child how much you still crave that intimacy with her. hint: And that's because you love her so desperately as a woman who happens to have given you the best thing possible, a child. (etc etc, not to make light of it, but it's likely the stuff she's maybe wanting to hear??)


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> I've told her it's been hard, but I also protect her feelings and minimize my own.


Well, Joe, your wife may definitely have some issues that she needs to overcome herself, but what I've noted above is all yours to own.

Take this self-assessment: No More Mr. Nice Guy! - Take the No More Mr. Nice Guy! Self-Assessment

If you fit the bill, you may want to take a cruise over to the Men's Clubhouse and view the 'man up' sticky thread at the top.

Best wishes.


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> Well, Joe, your wife may definitely have some issues that she needs to overcome herself, but what I've noted above is all yours to own.
> 
> Take this self-assessment: No More Mr. Nice Guy! - Take the No More Mr. Nice Guy! Self-Assessment
> 
> ...


Enchantment, 

You're right. It is mine to own and something I'm trying to work on, with varying degrees of success. I'll take the quiz and see what comes of it. Thanks.


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## ARF (Jan 26, 2011)

Hi Joe,

Don't have a lot of advice, but I have been in your shoes. I had about a 15 month dry spell during our first pregnancy and after the birth. I would feel pretty down about things because your story sounds a lot like mine. My wife did regain some of her desires, although I'd consider it still a work in progress. It wasn't until after our 2nd child was born that my wife confided to me that she felt "wrecked down there." I felt somewhat relieved to hear what some of the barriers may have been.

My wife is very self conscious and it did make sense. We have 2 kids now and our sex life has plenty of room to improve, but it is improving.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Thanks arf. I hope it improves also. My wife might feel similarly as she had a tough time recuperating from the c section. I'm hoping we can work through this. Maybe we should consult with a doctor and therapist.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> Thanks arf. I hope it improves also. My wife might feel similarly as she had a tough time recuperating from the c section. I'm hoping we can work through this. Maybe we should consult with a doctor and therapist.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think the time for sensitivity to her feelings, figuring out what is wrong with her, asking her to see a doctor is past.

There is no doubt that she has a mental problem of sexual aversion or a physical problem. Possibly she needs years of therapy or some operations.

But, the action you have to take is to tell her that unless your marriage becomes sexual by X date, then you are going to assume that *she has no desire to be married to you any longer.* 

In your mind you have to realize that she is being cruel. If you were being cruel to her, would you expect her to put up with it?


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

When I read threads like this, it makes me glad that we are not having children. I hear so many horror stories similar to this, from both men and women. Sex and romance is too important to me, to risk a screaming infant ruining everything. Sadly, sexual problems after a baby seem to be the rule rather than the exception.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Joe I am happy that you posted. This is a critical time in your marriage and the way you negotiate this huddle will color the rest of the relationship. I think I know what she is feeling. I felt similar after my first baby. I never expected to be so exhausted and to feel "touched out" especially when breast feeding. My body felt alien to me it did not look the same nor feel the same as before. 

These changes are unexpected for most women it is the best kept secret of motherhood. It was difficult to deal with and took me time to recover myself and feel sexy again. It was difficult for my husband too. I think it is more difficult for younger men because you don't expect it either. 

The way I got back was to tell my husband how I felt and be open to finding my way back. We tried different things. Since I felt touched out I asked that he not sneak up on me from behind. We tried sitting close on the couch while we worked and watched TV so that I got back in touch with my prepreganancy body. One of the biggest hurtles was that I was over attentive to the baby and underattentive to my H and that caused problems. 

Being hostile angry and unmoved by what a women goes through in pregnancy will start a subltle resentment that builds over time. When I read the responses that advise to demand that she meets your needs or to be petulant I think the men seem childlike. In addition, to afronted that she would even cinsider denying you sex, seems uncaring. I think that it has obviously not worked in their marriage so why are they leading you down this perilous path is beyond me. 

Demands for meeting your needs may be viewed as self centered and may be interpreted as being overly pleasure seeking and self serving. She may think of you as not being able to control you craving for sexual.

Many women do not understand that your sexual attract is your expression of love. You wife just created a new person that you love with an intensity you have never felt before. You look at your wife who is the mother of that beloved child and your are filled with love for her too. What better way to show her the deepening of your love that to express it in the way a man does. To see that wonderful response as pleasure seeking is an enormous mistake that women make. If she feels this then she is like many other women. 

Having a talk with her may be seen like you are lecturing her and worrying about your self. Also remember that sex is a mutual act I think talking about it as your need misrepresents what you are feeling. It is a want a positive desire to show her love and to feel love from her. Saying it is a needs is like asking her to provide you with something that is just for you. The petulant men will say what's wrong with showing love by giving to your partner, you do things for her you don't like. The only thing is that having mutually satisfying intimacy bears not resemblance to going to work. If that is used as a score for you, you have to admit that she does the same for you.bso you may actually be even. 

Please let her that you are interested in understanding how she feels and will be sensitive in bring her back to accepting your love and her giving you a much need return on the love. understand how she feels
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

tacoma said:


> There's a serious problem here and if she's unwilling to fix it I'd file for divorce.
> Actually I would have filed for divorce about 12 months ago.
> 
> She's using her pregnancy as an excuse.
> ...


Oh please.

Pregnancy can eff up a woman's hormones, self-image, etc. She could have PPD (post pardem depression) which kills your libido. Is she on the pill? That can also mess with hormones.

But divorce? Wtf. Counseling won't help, but a doctor will. Get her levels checked and see if she has the signs of PPD.

I wish men knew how it felt carrying a baby and then taking care of a baby after birth. You have no idea. lol. Every pregnancy is different too. After my first, I couldn't have sex for 3 months because I had so many stitches down there. OUCH! After my 2nd, we waited 2 weeks  But we had sex up until delivery...pregnancy made me very "ready" all the time. not every woman is like that though. My sister lost all her libido while pregnant. But divorce is not the answer. Educate yourself about pregnancy and what it puts a woman though. Good god.

Pressuring her will just made her feel bad and sex will move farther away.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

FirstYearDown said:


> When I read threads like this, it makes me glad that we are not having children. I hear so many horror stories similar to this, from both men and women. Sex and romance is too important to me, to risk a screaming infant ruining everything. Sadly, sexual problems after a baby seem to be the rule rather than the exception.


Hubs and I had sex and romance almost daily during my pregnancy. Pregnancy sex was AMAZING. We had it until the day I was admitted and then waited only 2 weeks after birth (had to wait to stop bleeding). It's what you make it. Everyone has issues...but I don't let their issues stop me from doing things.

Screaming infant didn't stop us..although she was a great baby. But...you have to get creative, which is also fun.


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Thanks for all the support, people. I'm thinking, or at least hoping that it is the hormones. I just need to speak to her about this again, because although it might be medical, I'm still concerned that we haven't worked together on a solution. I don't want her to feel pressured and maybe she can't think of us being intimate because of her body. I know recovering from the C-section was challenging for her. Somehow, I'm hoping we can come together and think of some answers. 

I want to initiate the other touching that is being suggested her, such as cuddling, to get her used to it, but I have to say that it is getting tougher and tougher to do. It seems like such a fine line because she pushes me away if I express any affection she deems as too sexual. 

As far as divorce, I really, really don't want to go down that road. For one, I still love her and second, I love my baby to pieces and couldn't imagine being away from my baby.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Joe I am happy that you posted. This is a critical time in your marriage and the way you negotiate this huddle will color the rest of the relationship. I think I know what she is feeling. I felt similar after my first baby. I never expected to be so exhausted and to feel "touched out" especially when breast feeding. My body felt alien to me it did not look the same nor feel the same as before.
> 
> These changes are unexpected for most women it is the best kept secret of motherhood. It was difficult to deal with and took me time to recover myself and feel sexy again. It was difficult for my husband too. I think it is more difficult for younger men because you don't expect it either.
> 
> ...



Perhaps I am just misunderstanding, but this sure reads like her needs are important, his are not. How is him making his needs understood selfish and lecturing?


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

Happy for you, that girl. :smthumbup:

However, I honestly feel that your experience is not the most frequent. This is based on what _parents _have told me.

This is not to say that parents cannot have good sex lives.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I wanted to say that I advise you not to take the position that she is being peuposfully cruel. You know that is not true because you know your wife. 

The above is common fare from some posters they should copy and past because it is always the same frantic advice to tell the woman she better shape up and give you sex weather she feels it or not. Do you wonder that they finish with it will only get worse. It might have gotten worse for them. 

But it does not have to. Don't use this self - centered out of control urgency to express yourself. I think it is immature and invites contempt and disrespect. I can just see there wives looking at them like they are nits and saying to themselves "right like you think you can command me? We will see". What free person would respond to this request to use their body to get themselves off. 

Thats not what you are asking. You want your wife back the woman you love and who loves you. You want her to feel the same need for you as you feel for her don't you? You want to have mutually connected sex. You could demand and pester her till she does it to get you off her back. 

But she is likely to disengage from you because she may feel you are using her for sex. Then the spiral down to her withdrawing regularly. Think of this as an investment the the future and learn control and compassion and forget yourself right now. Think about things in terms of you and your wife and not just you. Your mature controlled approach will payoff longterm. 

Always talk about sex as a mutual activity and encourage he from that stand point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

It's not about cruelty it's about what stage of your life you're in. She's in mommy-stage. Which lasts until the youngest child is about 27. Until then you're at best, the 4th or 5th most important thing in her life. And since none of those more important things get sex from her, it's improbable you will.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

FirstYearDown said:


> Happy for you, that girl. :smthumbup:
> 
> However, I honestly feel that your experience is not the most frequent. This is based on what _parents _have told me.
> 
> This is not to say that parents cannot have good sex lives.


Yea...cause...lol...my friends are all parents and aren't hurtin' in the sex life area. Although the money area is usually cause for concern...


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

C-sections can be brutal to get over.

Giving birth is traumatic...try it sometime.


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

:iagree::iagree:

I saw a video of a woman giving birth. I said "Eh, not for me." I don't think I could handle that. 

I never admit this to anyone, because I know that women would look down on me for it.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

FirstYearDown said:


> :iagree::iagree:
> 
> I saw a video of a woman giving birth. I said "Eh, not for me." I don't think I could handle that.
> 
> I never admit this to anyone, because I know that women would look down on me for it.


I don't know who would look down on you for that...one of my best friends doesn't want children. It's not my uterus so I don't care. lol.

My 2nd birth really bothered me (long story) and I was traumatized for over 2 years because of it. It didn't effect my sex life, but it effected my psyche.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Perhaps I am just misunderstanding, but this sure reads like her needs are important, his are not. How is him making his needs understood selfish and lecturing?


Has this worked for you? How did your wife react? 

This is the win-lose mind set. The woman wins if you are sensitive to the real and natural changes that occur when a woman has a man's child. The man wins if he exerts his right to have his sexual needs met no matter what the natural changes are in his wife. Of course, it does not work because no one wins. This is not a deal you are making with a bissiness adversary where the competition leads to one man or another winning. 

Loving relationship are not you lose if I win. If it were so, you would not be unsuccessful, and angry. Relationships are more like working with people on your management team where you are the leader. Success needs cooperation. 

The win - lose thing is usually the way a man who has contempt for any thing female and does not accept the vulnerable either in women or themselves. They are not successful with woman no matter how many times they leave and start a new relationship because they still operate from a win - lose mind set and that kills love.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> Thanks for all the support, people. I'm thinking, or at least hoping that it is the hormones. I just need to speak to her about this again, because although it might be medical, I'm still concerned that we haven't worked together on a solution. I don't want her to feel pressured and maybe she can't think of us being intimate because of her body. I know recovering from the C-section was challenging for her. Somehow, I'm hoping we can come together and think of some answers.
> 
> I want to initiate the other touching that is being suggested her, such as cuddling, to get her used to it, but I have to say that it is getting tougher and tougher to do. It seems like such a fine line because she pushes me away if I express any affection she deems as too sexual.
> 
> As far as divorce, I really, really don't want to go down that road. For one, I still love her and second, I love my baby to pieces and couldn't imagine being away from my baby.


I don't think it's cruel for a wife to not be able to have sex.
But it is cruel to push her husband away, and reject him, and act as if her husband is wrong for expecting and desiring his marriage to be a sexual relationship without explaining with good communication exactly what is preventing her from feeling sexual.

Regarding divorce.... You don't want to start a divorce process. But you do want to have a conversation that goes like this. A marriage is a sexual relationship, and without a sexual relationship there is no marriage. And let her see that it is her who is creating the destruction of the marriage by preventing it from being sexual.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Has this worked for you? How did your wife react?
> 
> This is the win-lose mind set. The woman wins if you are sensitive to the real and natural changes that occur when a woman has a man's child. The man wins if he exerts his right to have his sexual needs met no matter what the natural changes are in his wife. Of course, it does not work because no one wins. This is not a deal you are making with a bissiness adversary where the competition leads to one man or another winning.
> 
> ...


I don’t understand what win-lose has to do with it. He has certain needs, among them being physical intimacy with his wife. She has denied him that for the past 18 months, half of which is during her pregnancy. I understand fully (on an intellectual level) that women go through a heck of a lot during pregnancy and giving birth. But that does not give a woman carte blanche to make unilateral decision on how the marriage will be run.

Having said that, nowhere have I seen the poster phrase it as a demand or win-lose situation. He sounds like he has done quite a bit to be nurturing, caring and understanding. In turn, there is little evidence that she has done anything. In view of that, your advice is to be even more sensitive to the things she is going through and ignore his needs. It sounds like a demand for him to be a nice guy.

I really don’t disagree with much of what you post above, but fail to see how it is relevant advice to this situation. I see no indication that he has approached this in a “win-lose” manner or has been unreasonable or demanding, or that he has contempt for women. A marriage is based on cooperation and mutual understanding, but it must be from both sides with a full exchange of information. That necessarily includes both sides letting the other know about their needs.

So again, I ask, why is him making his needs understood in a respectful and loving manner “lecturing her and worrying about your self” (these were the words you chose to describe him talking about his needs). Remember, this is not telling a guy to wait a couple of months since his wife gave birth yesterday. This is a man who has been made to wait 18 months, both during and after the pregnancy, and in fact is not allowed to even touch his wife without her objecting. Why is his potential resentment ignored but her potential resentment emphasized? Why is he told to ignore his needs and focus on what she needs?


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> I wanted to say that I advise you not to take the position that she is being peuposfully cruel. You know that is not true because you know your wife.
> 
> The above is common fare from some posters they should copy and past because it is always the same frantic advice to tell the woman she better shape up and give you sex weather she feels it or not. Do you wonder that they finish with it will only get worse. It might have gotten worse for them.
> 
> ...


That's right, male interests are _far_ less important and significant than women's interests. When there is a conflict between the two, women's interests are always and eternally more important and trump male interests, because women's interests are clearly superior to those of men. The only reasonable course of action is for men to capitulate automatically and thoroughly in favor of the women in their lives. The opinions of men are welcome only at the discretion of the female and are seriously considered only by her grace. And should you _dare_ argue for your interests -- even interests that could improve your life and your well-being -- then you are being inherently selfish and self-motivated. Because men don't have any interests that women don't give them. Right?

</sarcasm>


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> I want to initiate the other touching that is being suggested her, such as cuddling, to get her used to it, but I have to say that it is getting tougher and tougher to do. It seems like such a fine line because she pushes me away if I express any affection she deems as too sexual.


Probably because she doesn`t want it to lead to sex.

Just tell her.

Say you`re in bed together and you pull her close to cuddle, she pulls away, you say....

"Babe, I`m not trying to get into your pants, I just want to feel you close to me for a little while."

Then do exactly that, no groping or fondling, just wrap your arms around her and enjoy the intimacy for as long as you can.

Keep doing things like this and maybe she`ll start to thaw a bit.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Has this worked for you? How did your wife react?
> 
> This is the win-lose mind set. The woman wins if you are sensitive to the real and natural changes that occur when a woman has a man's child. The man wins if he exerts his right to have his sexual needs met no matter what the natural changes are in his wife. Of course, it does not work because no one wins. This is not a deal you are making with a bissiness adversary where the competition leads to one man or another winning.


Please enlighten me: _how_ does the woman win if he is sensitive to the real and natural changes that occur when a woman has had (some man's) child? _What_ does she win? Peace and quiet? Not being pestered by some bothersome male? The undying love and affection of her mate, who has selflessly sacrificed his own happiness for her in exchange for no sex for the foreseeable future and a lifetime of being told how incompetent he is? 



Catherine602 said:


> Loving relationship are not you lose if I win. If it were so, you would not be unsuccessful, and angry. Relationships are more like working with people on your management team where you are the leader. Success needs cooperation.


Hear that? All that sex you aren't getting (and won't be getting for the foreseeable future) is you WINNING! Your complete capitulation over an issue you only THOUGHT was important to you will lead you to all the bliss and contentment usually reserved for . . . the _management boardroom_. 

And your "cooperation" in this sense will be to shut the hell up about sex, resent your wife, slowly emotionally withdraw, stop any semblance of intimacy, and allow your resentment to build. Winning! _Because your interests do not matter._



Catherine602 said:


> The win - lose thing is usually the way a man who has contempt for any thing female and does not accept the vulnerable either in women or themselves. They are not successful with woman no matter how many times they leave and start a new relationship because they still operate from a win - lose mind set and that kills love.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is a gross oversimplification of an extremely sophisticated and complex human dynamic, of the highest order. 

The fact is, he "loses" no matter what he does. Unless she suddenly remembers why she married him and behaving accordingly, her intransigence in this matter means NO ONE WINS. Lose-lose. There is no win. The only way she "wins" is if he agrees that his interests are inferior to hers, and will be for the rest of their lives.

And if she accepts that, there is no way she can ever really respect him.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> That's right, male interests are _far_ less important and significant than women's interests. When there is a conflict between the two, women's interests are always and eternally more important and trump male interests, because women's interests are clearly superior to those of men. The only reasonable course of action is for men to capitulate automatically and thoroughly in favor of the women in their lives. The opinions of men are welcome only at the discretion of the female and are seriously considered only by her grace. And should you _dare_ argue for your interests -- even interests that could improve your life and your well-being -- then you are being inherently selfish and self-motivated. Because men don't have any interests that women don't give them. Right?
> 
> </sarcasm>


At what point did Catherine say what you wrote? She didn't. She said that laying down the law is the worst approach.
Seriously, this woman had MAJOR surgery 8 months ago and is still breast feeding. After a c-section most women can barely stand up for 2 weeks - 1 month. Add in her body trying to come back to pre-pregnancy and hormones going nuts and yeah, a little sympathy is in order rather than a shootout at the OK corral.
OP, Tacoma's LAST post made sense. His former however was simply disgusting. Divorce, 12 months ago, really? She hadn't even had the baby yet!


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

Some women only get married, so that they can have a sperm donor with a wallet. This is so unfair.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> At what point did Catherine say what you wrote? She didn't. She said that laying down the law is the worst approach.


He tried reasonable discussion and got no where. That leaves begging pitifully or shutting the hell up and admitting that his interests are not important in the relationship. Which one do you recommend? 



Therealbrighteyes said:


> Seriously, this woman had MAJOR surgery 8 months ago and is still breast feeding. After a c-section most women can barely stand up for 2 weeks - 1 month. Add in her body trying to come back to pre-pregnancy and hormones going nuts and yeah, a little sympathy is in order rather than a shootout at the OK corral.


Sympathy, sure . . . for how freakin' long? At what point do his needs, wants, desires and interests start mattering again? When she's good and ready? Because I think several gentlemen on this board who have been married a long time will tell you . . . that time rarely comes. 

If a man isn't willing to stand up for his interests, it rarely ends well. And if this is the reaction she has to pregnancy/labor/delivery/nursing, I'm thinking that maybe the kid needs to be an only child.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

FirstYearDown said:


> Some women only get married, so that they can have a sperm donor with a wallet. This is so unfair.


I'm not accusing her of that at all. I've known plenty of women who went through a similar mind-set. About half of them ended up divorced and single moms. Just thinking maybe that's not in her best interest here.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> Thanks for all the support, people. I'm thinking, or at least hoping that it is the hormones. I just need to speak to her about this again, because although it might be medical, I'm still concerned that we haven't worked together on a solution. I don't want her to feel pressured and maybe she can't think of us being intimate because of her body. I know recovering from the C-section was challenging for her. Somehow, I'm hoping we can come together and think of some answers.


I have not ever had a C-section, but has she had any lingering issues with it? I, however, can vouch with first-hand experience that having a baby can make you VERY self-conscious about your post-baby body, no matter what your good husband tells you. And some of those post-baby body issues never go away - stretch marks, alas, last forever. If she had a faulty self-image before baby, it could be exacerbated afterward.

I think the best thing a husband can do is simply be supportive. Tell her and show her that you love her and her body, the mother of your child. Let her know - and keep it up - be cheerful and upbeat about it. Admire her. 



JoeHenderson said:


> I want to initiate the other touching that is being suggested her, such as cuddling, to get her used to it, but I have to say that it is getting tougher and tougher to do. It seems like such a fine line because she pushes me away if I express any affection she deems as too sexual.


This is probably common. She's at this place right now where she's so not feeling it. It's hard for somebody who easily does feel that desire to understand what that other place feels like. As a new mom, I remember literally being 'touched out'. I had a baby hanging on me all day and half the night, spit up on me, leaking breasts - yah, you feel it all right - and it's not usually desire.

Again, she needs gentle support. It's a trying time in both of your lives, but with the right kind of support and attitude from you both, it can make all the difference. You can maintain the balance and attitude right now because her equilibrium is maybe not there right now. Think of some things that you could do together that could involve the two of you connecting - what did you like to do before baby - what did you like to do while dating - early married? It could be dinner, movie, dancing, seeing a show, going antiquing, etc. Look at ways that you can slowly, but surely start to get her back in to that adult world with you. Maybe focus on doing some of those things and work up to other things - hold hands while you're out, open her car door for her and touch her back as she gets out, be protective of her, put your arm around her lightly, hold her chair out for her when you go out to eat. Start to do little things that maybe have been missed or skipped for awhile - start working it like you would if you were dating again.  



JoeHenderson said:


> As far as divorce, I really, really don't want to go down that road. For one, I still love her and second, I love my baby to pieces and couldn't imagine being away from my baby.


Yah, I agree - it's a little bit too easy on an anonymous forum to just let the emotion fly. Take it with a grain of salt. Maybe the bickering will die down and you can get some solid suggestions, eh? 

One thing - know that the desire you have as a husband for your wife is a beautiful thing. Sexual intimacy with your spouse is one of the most - wonderful, tantalizing, awesome, I can't think of more fantastic adjectives - things. So don't feel like you're out of order for wanting that.

Now, the key will be for you to reflect on your role as the man and head of your household on how YOU can help lead your wife to that intimacy. Being confident, strong in character, a good helpmate, humorous, subtly flirtatious - all will be attractive features. Being broody, moody, humorless, grumpy, cowering, pleading - all will be unattractive features. Contemplate and implement the attractive features everyday.

God Bless.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> Please enlighten me: _how_ does the woman win if he is sensitive to the real and natural changes that occur when a woman has had (some man's) child? _What_ does she win? Peace and quiet? Not being pestered by some bothersome male? The undying love and affection of her mate, who has selflessly sacrificed his own happiness for her in exchange for no sex for the foreseeable future and a lifetime of being told how incompetent he is?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh boy. In your scenario, the man selflessly sacrificed himself? If you really feel that way, then drive to your nearest hospital and find the closet surgeon. Ask him/her to install an implant with multiple ball bearings in it and an external pump. Every so often, make sure the implant is inflated until after 10 months it is the size of a watermelon. Then ask the surgeon to cut through your skin, your fat and your abdominal wall from hip to hip to remove the watermelon implant. Make sure you get an Rx for hormones that makes you nuts and breast milk leaks out from your nipples. Oh, and despite you being in agonizing pain from major surgery and all your hormones, you are responsible for feeding that new watermelon.....solely. 
Come back to me and talk about sacrifice.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Oh boy. In your scenario, the man selflessly sacrificed himself? If you really feel that way, then drive to your nearest hospital and find the closet surgeon. Ask him/her to install an implant with multiple ball bearings in it and an external pump. Every so often, make sure the implant is inflated until after 10 months it is the size of a watermelon. Then ask the surgeon to cut through your skin, your fat and your abdominal wall from hip to hip to remove the watermelon implant. Make sure you get an Rx for hormones that makes you nuts and breast milk leaks out from your nipples. Oh, and despite you being in agonizing pain from major surgery and all your hormones, you are responsible for feeding that new watermelon.....solely.
> Come back to me and talk about sacrifice.


Honestly brighteyes we`re getting off track here.

My wife had a c-section and I haven`t gone more than 4 weeks without sex in my entire marriage.

The OP`s wife is using (consciously or not) her pregnancy to avoid sex with her husband for some unknown reason.
She obviously has a reason but it isn`t her pregnancy.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

tacoma said:


> Honestly brighteyes we`re getting off track here.
> 
> My wife had a c-section and I haven`t gone more than 4 weeks without sex in my entire marriage.
> 
> ...


I don't think I was getting off track. Ian's suggestion that the husband sacrificed "selflessly" with no mention of what the OP's wife sacrificed is ridiculous and that is why I posted what I did. This Kim Jong treatment that you two suggested is just wrong. Yes, there may be some underlying reason but I am suggesting that she is a new first time mother and some empathy is warranted. 
More than likely, she doesn't realize she is doing this. I was fine after my first but after my second, I was a mess. The site of my body revolted me and the thought of being touched sexually was enough to make me cringe. Had he pressed the issue further, I would have been resentful as all get out. Sometimes it just takes time. It did with me.


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## Hubby01 (Jul 5, 2011)

To the OP, fix this NOW.

Your wife will only continue to find more excuses and make more demands on you. I'm 12 months further down the path than you are and apparently were "trying" to have another baby.

It won't improve, hormones won't change. Your wife must be made responsible for ignoring your needs. She signed up for marriage and a baby as much as you did.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> This Kim Jong treatment that you two suggested is just wrong.


All I have posted in this thread is that I would have divorced my wife if she refused intimacy with me for months.
This is not at all totalitarian as you suggest. It's simply a statement that I will not be neglected or abused at the whims of a woman, especially my own wife.
I don't find this unreasonable at all.



> More than likely, she doesn't realize she is doing this.


if she's unaware then she's not listening to her husband. Actually if she's unaware then she's incredibly ignorant of what an intimate relationship is.




> it just takes time. It did with me.


And more then a year is simply too much time. 
If she spends any more time not dealing with this she will and indeed should find herself out in the world as a single mom/
The needs of both partners are important, she's not pulling her weight and should be confronted about it or face th very real and just proposition of losing her husband.
As I have said, I'd already be gone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I don’t understand what win-lose has to do with it. He has certain needs, among them being physical intimacy with his wife. She has denied him that for the past 18 months, half of which is during her pregnancy. I understand fully (on an intellectual level) that women go through a heck of a lot during pregnancy and giving birth. But that does not give a woman carte blanche to make unilateral decision on how the marriage will be run.
> 
> Having said that, nowhere have I seen the poster phrase it as a demand or win-lose situation. He sounds like he has done quite a bit to be nurturing, caring and understanding. In turn, there is little evidence that she has done anything. In view of that, your advice is to be even more sensitive to the things she is going through and ignore his needs. It sounds like a demand for him to be a nice guy.
> 
> ...


Needs = what have you do for me. Wants = what we do for each other. When you talk about his needs you are talking about what he gets out of sex for himself - relief pleasure. He has needs for these and she must supply him what he needs. 

So he is giving her time to heal but at some point it is reasonable for her to reconnect to her husband and that time is now. That is if she understands that the very basis of their relationship is being threatened. 

She does not want that to happen she wants to stay married that meeds she must reaffirm her love and closeness with her husband. He wants to connect with her because he wants the marriage to continue. 

From that place, he can lead her to reconnection. Not by lecturing her about what a man needs, and that a man can't wait so long and she better relieve him. Certainly men go without sex for extended periods of time when there is no one for them to have sex with. 

So why cant he go for two even 5 yrs without? Because he has a woman who he loves and cherishes and he wants to feel that love from her and give her loving back the way he is made to give and receive. 

If she knew that it was about connecting with her that special woman and not his needs she may be more. Any random woman can satisfy his needs but only the woman he loves can make him feel loved back.

They both win if she pushes herself out of suspended animation and makes the man she loves feel that love. That is how I think he should communicate on a level of mutuality. 

It is time to allow herself to go with the flow, it is the only way to get back in touch with her husband. She has to just let it happen, so they can connect to each other. 

MEM understands that and because he does he has a wife who finds it a pleasure to connect with him because a the type of man he is. He himself admits that he did not always understand. Why not take advantage of the benefit of his wisdom. 

I don't think that manning up mean the man demands that his needs be met but that he leads his wife to maintain the connection through all of the cycles of her life. 

Why does it fall to men to do the leadership work? Biology, they don't go through cycles or pregnancy and all of those changes. 


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/32486-good-wife.html


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> If a man isn't willing to stand up for his interests, it rarely ends well. And if this is the reaction she has to pregnancy/labor/delivery/nursing, I'm thinking that maybe the kid needs to be an only child.


Wow are you clueless. Stand up for his rights, were in bloody blue blazes does this come from? 

This is his wife not a government granting rights and privilages.

Actually Ian probably does more to help men than you imagine. His advice and posturing is pedestrian and obviously does not work. It sounds good - husbands rights and all. 

There are probably thousands of woman who read this forum and come across his post and think "thank God I am not married to that man" And they go home and appreciate what they have. 

Every time I gloss over these tiresome post, I realize how lucky I am and how special my husband is.

Ladies dont get mad - use that energy to love that good man in your life. It could be so much worse. Well, going to kiss my H funny looking foot. Wait a moment, that's not a foot, oh well, kiss it anyway.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> So he is giving her time to heal but at some point it is reasonable for her to reconnect to her husband and that time is now. That is if she understands that the very basis of their relationship is being threatened.


Why would she understand that? If she doesn't think it's an issue, why will she understand - to her, it's a mountain made from a molehill



> She does not want that to happen she wants to stay married that meeds she must reaffirm her love and closeness with her husband. He wants to connect with her because he wants the marriage to continue.


At times like this, some women get all the love and closeness they want from the child. In terms of love and closeness, the man is superfluous.



> From that place, he can lead her to reconnection. Not by lecturing her about what a man needs, and that a man can't wait so long and she better relieve him. Certainly men go without sex for extended periods of time when there is no one for them to have sex with.


I agree with this, except if she doesn't need a loving connection, he can't lead her anywhere. 



> So why cant he go for two even 5 yrs without? Because he has a woman who he loves and cherishes and he wants to feel that love from her and give her loving back the way he is made to give and receive.


Or seven or ten or fifteen or for ever and come back here and tell us all about how his wife never wanted sex again except to have a child? And be told he should have sorted it out at the time?



> If she knew that it was about connecting with her that special woman and not his needs she may be more. Any random woman can satisfy his needs but only the woman he loves can make him feel loved back.


See above - his love is superfluous in the face of the child. Why can't he get all the love he needs from the child and seeing what a good mother she is?


> They both win if she pushes herself out of suspended animation and makes the man she loves feel that love. That is how I think he should communicate on a level of mutuality.


 Loving him that way isn't on the radar. The "mutuality" is the child - why does he need more?



> It is time to allow herself to go with the flow, it is the only way to get back in touch with her husband. She has to just let it happen, so they can connect to each other.


Why? She doesn't want to connect that way. The position of the husband has changed forever.



> MEM understands that and because he does he has a wife who finds it a pleasure to connect with him because a the type of man he is. He himself admits that he did not always understand. Why not take advantage of the benefit of his wisdom.


MEM is a man in a million (or more likely more than that). Unfortunately, being like him is like saying to most wheezy joggers that they can actually be an olympic sprinter. You can get better by being like him, but not everyone can be world champion!



> I don't think that manning up mean the man demands that his needs be met but that he leads his wife to maintain the connection through all of the cycles of her life.


You're right about manning up, but the point of manning up is that the other partner _has to want to be lead / has to want to react to the changes_. If their mind is somewhere else, you'll get a "that's nice, but I have to do (insert)".


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

IanIronwood said:


> I'm not accusing her of that at all. I've known plenty of women who went through a similar mind-set. About half of them ended up divorced and single moms. Just thinking maybe that's not in her best interest here.


Oh, I know that you didn't accuse the OP's wife, of using her husband only to become a mother.

I know that is what I am thinking though.  Looks like he will only get sex when _she _is ready to have another baby. 

TRBE, how could the OP's wife not realize what she is doing to her husband and her marriage? It has been nearly two years, not a few months.


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## jenis (Feb 9, 2011)

FirstYearDown said:


> ....how could the OP's wife not realize what she is doing to her husband and her marriage? It has been nearly two years, not a few months.


:agree: Really. I come from some experience here as a wife and mother of four breastfed children (no C-sections though), the variances of each pregnancy, and the post-pregnancy hormonal roller coasters. There is something else getting in the way here.

Hey I know everyone is different, and I know that I couldn't have made it without sex as long as the OPW has. And she has to be aware, even if it's only in the back of her mind, that sex is a huge part of a healthy relationship and that her husband's needs aren't getting met in that department. Maybe she is afraid to admit it to him or to herself, but for what reason (depression, resentment, something physical?) I don't know. They are wife & husband.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Sexuality is at the core of marriage. It's not a selfish need on the part of a male or a female. It is what differentiates a marriage from any other relationship in life. 

No sex whatsoever for 18 months, with rejection, and without explanation. Is there a person on this board who thinks that this is acceptable in a marriage?

When a person does not "feel" like sex, they can use their own mind to control their own thoughts and feelings to choose to do anything. That's why it's unproductive for the OP or anyone else to try to "diagnose" his wife from afar. If there is an exceedingly rare medical condition that truly prevents her from having sexual intercourse, then she should have a diagnoses well before 18 months.

The only thing missing is the OP is allowing his marriage to be a coparenting cohabitation instead of a sexual relationship.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Needs = what have you do for me. Wants = what we do for each other. When you talk about his needs you are talking about what he gets out of sex for himself - relief pleasure. He has needs for these and she must supply him what he needs.
> 
> So he is giving her time to heal but at some point it is reasonable for her to reconnect to her husband and that time is now. That is if she understands that the very basis of their relationship is being threatened.
> 
> ...


Again you start with the “lecturing.” Who said anything about lecturing? What about gently but firmly conveying the fact that he needs physically intimacy to feel close and loved by his wife, to strength the marriage. To belittle this as merely physical relief is surprising.

Further, to liken it to a situation where a person goes without sex because there is no one around is at best failing to understand the real issue. He is married to a woman that he loves, has been around her for at least 18 months, she professes to love him, but yet they do not have sex. Heck, he can’t even show affection and touch her. At least with no one around, there is not the constant reminder that the woman he loves does not want to be physically close to him. 



> So why cant he go for two even 5 yrs without? Because he has a woman who he loves and cherishes and he wants to feel that love from her and give her loving back the way he is made to give and receive.
> 
> If she knew that it was about connecting with her that special woman and not his needs she may be more. Any random woman can satisfy his needs but only the woman he loves can make him feel loved back.
> 
> ...


This is a wonderful thought and I am in complete agreement. Had you posted this first, I would have had no issue other than add that to help push herself out of suspended animation, he needs to make her aware of his needs, which include the physical intimacy to show his love. 



> I don't think that manning up mean the man demands that his needs be met but that he leads his wife to maintain the connection through all of the cycles of her life.
> 
> Why does it fall to men to do the leadership work? Biology, they don't go through cycles or pregnancy and all of those changes.


I am still not clear how you equate his making his needs know with “demands that his needs be met.” If she is not aware of what his needs are, it makes it much more difficult to lead her to that place. As his attempts to get there have been unsuccessful so far, I fail to see how being even more solicitous to her needs and ignoring his own, as you originally seemed to suggest, was helpful. Otherwise, I have no issue, other than you still seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding about a man’s need for sex with his wife. It is not merely about the physical act that provides relief. It is about the sharing and loving that comes from it, the feeling of closeness that results, and the understanding that it is the one place that you and she alone are a part of.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

So OP ask yourself what you're willing to tolerate. 20 months? 20 years? The 'screw yourself I'm the mommy now' phase of life is what it is. I thought it would end someday on its own like a headache. Nope. And when I reflect on it I see now it's my own damn fault for not noticing reality for what it was. I was being used. I am a sperm donor and means of financial support. And that's it.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I don't think I was getting off track. Ian's suggestion that the husband sacrificed "selflessly" with no mention of what the OP's wife sacrificed is ridiculous and that is why I posted what I did. This Kim Jong treatment that you two suggested is just wrong. Yes, there may be some underlying reason but I am suggesting that she is a new first time mother and some empathy is warranted.
> More than likely, she doesn't realize she is doing this. I was fine after my first but after my second, I was a mess. The site of my body revolted me and the thought of being touched sexually was enough to make me cringe. Had he pressed the issue further, I would have been resentful as all get out. Sometimes it just takes time. It did with me.


May be I just don't understand, because I am having the same reaction to Catherine's posts, but why is he suppose to continue doing the same thing, perhaps even be nicer and expect a different result. I have looked at OP's posts, and it looks like he is trying to do these very things. The result has been 9 months of no sex while she was pregnant and nine months of no sex following the C-Section. In fact, he can't even touch her.

I am not advocating that he be a jerk, that he "demand" anything, or that he turn into Kim Jong. I am also not saying that he should not be supportive about the changes that have come for her and her life, or that he should be demanding sex the day she comes back from the hospital. My wife and I have three children, all C-Sections and I understand intellectually some of the things she went through.

But to advise him to continue to suck it up and be supportive seems silly. He is doing that and she is staying the same. I do think he needs to sit down with her, explain why physical contact and intimacy are important to him and his marriage. He should request that she get a full check up to rule out physcial issues, and suggest marriage counseling to help both of them get a handle on these changes. But I see nothing wrong with him explaining to her that a sexless marraige with no end in sight is not an acceptable outcome.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Wow are you clueless. Stand up for his rights, were in bloody blue blazes does this come from?
> 
> This is his wife not a government granting rights and privilages.
> 
> Actually Ian probably does more to help men than you imagine. His advice and posturing is pedestrian and obviously does not work. It sounds good - husbands rights and all.


I said stand up for his _*interests*_. And I chose my words most carefully. I didn't say a husband had a right to have sex with his wife -- he doesn't (in most American jurisdictions, anyway). 

But that isn't the same as advocating in his own interest. His wife certainly is doing that by saying she doesn't feel that way anymore -- it's in her interest to focus the majority of her love and attention on the kid, not the spouse. But if he doesn't maintain that his interests are just as important as hers, then he is essentially handing her the control of the entire relationship, not just the sexual aspects. 

Sex is important to him. He's said as much. If he backs off of that position because she has an emotional outburst, then he is indicating that he is willing to compromise on something very, very important to him . . . without any concessions in return. She will have essentially _out-yelled_ him to get her way, no matter what tone she took. If he accepts that unchallenged then he has set the precedent that her interests, not his, are the only ones that matter in the relationship. How is that going to move their relationship forward?




Catherine602 said:


> There are probably thousands of woman who read this forum and come across his post and think "thank God I am not married to that man" And they go home and appreciate what they have.
> 
> Every time I gloss over these tiresome post, I realize how lucky I am and how special my husband is.
> 
> Ladies dont get mad - use that energy to love that good man in your life. It could be so much worse. Well, going to kiss my H funny looking foot. Wait a moment, that's not a foot, oh well, kiss it anyway.



LOL! Considering my wife (a professional at the top of her field, from the top of her class, just got back from receiving an international award for essentially being both brainy and right) has nominated me for local "Father of the Year" four times, now, and considering that she will literally not shut up about how wonderful her husband is . . . well, in addition to my Alpha traits (work in porn, successful writer, making money at it, physically appealing, charismatic personality) I have a full slate of beta-skills (I do all the cooking, laundry, housekeeping, yardwork, prepare the children for school and drive them, pick them up, oversee their homework, do my daughter's hair, manage carpools, am a scout leader, and STILL find time to fully support her in her very demanding career) PLUS find time to take her to romantic outings, write her unsolicited poetry, paint a 10x12' mural symbolizing our 20 year relationship on our bedroom wall, and greet her every morning without fail with a well-deserved coffee, a kiss and breakfast . . . well, she seems pretty happy with me.

Oh, and I hate professional sports. In 20 years, she hasn't lost me to a game ONCE. Any game. At any time. Ever. 

So if you want to thank God you aren't married to me, be my guest. If my attitudes about men and women and their varied interests concern you, and you feel that they must OF COURSE be coming from a slope-headed neanderthal, think again. I'm just a man smart enough to know his interests and know his worth . . . and smart enough to find a woman worthy of that attention.


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> So OP ask yourself what you're willing to tolerate. 20 months? 20 years? The 'screw yourself I'm the mommy now' phase of life is what it is. I thought it would end someday on its own like a headache. Nope. And when I reflect on it I see now it's my own damn fault for not noticing reality for what it was. I was being used. I am a sperm donor and means of financial support. And that's it.



:iagree::iagree::iagree:

This happens more often, than most people care to admit.

Some wives fail to remember that if it wasn't for their husband, they would not have their beautiful babies to zero in on.

She doesn't allow her husband to _touch _her, so he might as well be living alone. What's the difference? 

I have never heard of a woman needing 18 months to heal from having a C section or giving birth. She might be traumatised and maybe she is scared of getting pregnant again.


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Hi All,

Once again, thanks to everyone for chiming in. I brought up the conversation again last night as I was trying to be intimate with her (not sex, just subtle kisses on the neck and carefully exploring w/ my hands, not on erogenous zones) when she told me she felt uncomfortable. I asked her what she meant by that and she explained that her body feels like a vessel for our child and does not see herself as someone sexual. I explained that I never stopped thinking of her as such and told her that I would like to help her feel more like herself again. She seemed to take that well, but later said that she would probably feel up to intimacy again when she stopped breastfeeding and that is a common phenomenon. She plans to stop breastfeeding when the baby is approximately 12-14 months. I shared that I wanted to be supportive, but I am saddened by the loss of the part of our relationship and would hope to not have to wait another 4-6 months for that part of our relationship to rekindle. 
She said she understood my feelings and felt bad that I was saddened and disappointed, but reasserted that it will not get better until she stops breastfeeding. I asked her if there were any other factors impacting the need to wait (e.g., my attractiveness, her perceived attractiveness, mood, etc.), but denied those as reasons. 

I asked her if it would make sense to see a doctor if there was a medical explanation for this, but she did not think that was necessary. Perhaps, I made her feel like she was abnormal, but was just trying to find a solution. 

I'm trying to be supportive, be charming, romantic, considerate, helpful around the house, but feel down that she does not want anything more in our relationship right now. She said I'm a great husband and father, but I wonder why she treats me more like a friend than anything else. 

In any case, I'm bothered by the fact that she just wants to ride this out and not consider a solution.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Once again, thanks to everyone for chiming in. I brought up the conversation again last night as I was trying to be intimate with her (not sex, just subtle kisses on the neck and carefully exploring w/ my hands, not on erogenous zones) when she told me she felt uncomfortable. I asked her what she meant by that and she explained that her body feels like a vessel for our child and does not see herself as someone sexual. I explained that I never stopped thinking of her as such and told her that I would like to help her feel more like herself again. She seemed to take that well, but later said that she would probably feel up to intimacy again when she stopped breastfeeding and that is a common phenomenon. She plans to stop breastfeeding when the baby is approximately 12-14 months. I shared that I wanted to be supportive, but I am saddened by the loss of the part of our relationship and would hope to not have to wait another 4-6 months for that part of our relationship to rekindle.
> She said she understood my feelings and felt bad that I was saddened and disappointed, but reasserted that it will not get better until she stops breastfeeding. I asked her if there were any other factors impacting the need to wait (e.g., my attractiveness, her perceived attractiveness, mood, etc.), but denied those as reasons.
> ...


Is 4-6 months acceptable to you? What happens if things don't pick up at that point (remembering that by then you will have a toddler that require a lot of energy to deal with)?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

People make parenting so difficult. I have a 3 year old and a 12 year old and I have a classroom full of 30 ten year olds.

It's not that difficult. We play at home, but they kids are in bed by 8:30 and my hubs and I hang out alone until about 10:30 or 11. I sleep until 5:15 and I'm good to go. We are not exhausted or sitting around complaining about how the kids make our lives suck. Our relationship comes first...even when we were at odds with each other. 

I just don't understand how some women make it so difficult sounding to raise children. You guide them and help them along their path...teach manners, or whatever is important to you and then set them free. 

My oldest had sensory processing disorder. It was rough raising her as a baby and toddler...but I still found time for me and my personal life. She wanted for nothing.

I get frustrated with how many of these posts talk about how difficult it is to raise and deal with children. It's really not. People these days tend to make their children their whole worlds...I don't agree with that. Children grow up and move away...hopefully you have guided them to be productive individuals.

But with our 3 year old...she doesn't suck our energy or make us so tired we can't find time to share a beer and smoke and then go make love before bed.

Make your priorities, people. Find the time. Geez.

/rant.


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

I agree, That_Girl. I was taught by my family that my child should mean the world to me, but to never put my wife in the backseat. We're still a couple and that love is the reason we even have a family. Our child is active, but an easy baby, overall. I just don't think her viewpoint is the same as mine and worries me about our future.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

You are at a critical juncture in your marriage.
If you agree to wait for 4-6 months, then you are digging your hole deeper. A non sexual wife will always have a valid excuse... Wait till she tells you that she is too old to feel sexual when she hits 30. What will you do then?

Avoid conversations that provide her with an opportunity to explain why she is not or cannot be sexual and replace them with conversations where you communicate your expectations in your marriage.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Once again, thanks to everyone for chiming in. I brought up the conversation again last night as I was trying to be intimate with her (not sex, just subtle kisses on the neck and carefully exploring w/ my hands, not on erogenous zones) when she told me she felt uncomfortable. I asked her what she meant by that and she explained that her body feels like a vessel for our child and does not see herself as someone sexual. I explained that I never stopped thinking of her as such and told her that I would like to help her feel more like herself again. She seemed to take that well, but later said that she would probably feel up to intimacy again when she stopped breastfeeding and that is a common phenomenon. She plans to stop breastfeeding when the baby is approximately 12-14 months. I shared that I wanted to be supportive, but I am saddened by the loss of the part of our relationship and would hope to not have to wait another 4-6 months for that part of our relationship to rekindle.
> She said she understood my feelings and felt bad that I was saddened and disappointed, but reasserted that it will not get better until she stops breastfeeding. I asked her if there were any other factors impacting the need to wait (e.g., my attractiveness, her perceived attractiveness, mood, etc.), but denied those as reasons.
> ...


(*Sigh*) There she goes, being all reasonable.

To her, this is hard-core Mommy Time, and sex just isn't a thought she has, no matter what that means to you. Your unhappiness one way or another is tertiary -- not even secondary -- to her world. That sucks, but it's not uncommon. The good news is few women can hold out 10-12 months. Kids get teeth, and they aren't satisfied with breast-milk for very long.

Nor is her contention that sexual feelings will return after weaning. The problem is, it doesn't always happen. But if that's her contention, then the best option for your marriage is to ride it out, as painful as it is. You've let her know you are bothered by the lack of sex. Yet she probably doesn't understand (most women don't) about the Buzz that distracts you from pretty much everything else. She doesn't understand that this is a deep emotional need. She needs to.

So do this: every time you're feeling sexually frustrated, buy a can of formula. Start stacking them up in the kitchen. Don't say a word about it unless asked. And when she does ask (and she will) just tell her, quietly, that you are eagerly anticipating the day that the baby is finally weened. Hopefully she'll get the message: _I am waiting patiently for you to come around, but my patience has limits. _

I'd also be a lot less giving for a while, too. Emotional distance, no physical contact, just turn the whole thermostat down for the foreseeable future and see if that gets her attention. She needs to know that while you are supporting her in this, it is causing you serious emotional pain. Because if you were causing her serious emotional pain, you can bet you'd hear about it.

The good news is, you will have plenty of formula when the time comes, and it sucks to run out. The bad news is . . . well, you're already not getting laid. You might as well make a point and not get laid.


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## jenis (Feb 9, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> Hi All,.......


If I said that to my H, I would not blame him for leaving me. It's unacceptable for her to make no effort and zero compromise.

And I agree with you that_girl, raising a child (one child at that) doesn't leave a vacuum for anything else.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Also, give your children bedtimes and stick to them. I have friends who let their kids go to sleep whenever they want and then they complain they never have time alone.

Wtf? My kids go to bed by 8:30...maybe they aren't tired, but I'm done. lol... This allows Hubs and I to have time in the house without kids buggin. 

Something happened over the last 30 years where children have started running the households...i don't get it.


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## jenis (Feb 9, 2011)

that_girl said:


> Also, give your children bedtimes and stick to them. I have friends who let their kids go to sleep whenever they want and then they complain they never have time alone......


LOL, I remember in the early 90's reading a book (or maybe a pamphlet?) titled 'The Family Bed'. We never considered it, but knew two couples that had children who refused to sleep in their own beds. They were miserable.......


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

jenis said:


> LOL, I remember in the early 90's reading a book (or maybe a pamphlet?) titled 'The Family Bed'. We never considered it, but knew two couples that had children who refused to sleep in their own beds. They were miserable.......


Omg...my children have been in their own beds/rooms from 6 months on (I breastfed so it was easier to have them in our room/bed). However, sex was often and wonderful. They would sleep in their crib, and we'd get busy (even if quiet lol).

Our bedroom is devoid of toys, kid stuff, and tv. It's for sleep and sex and us. Period. We don't really even let the kids in. lol. They come in during the morning sometimes for snuggles, but then we move out to the living room. Everyone needs their own space. Our bedroom is not a communal area.

I just think people use children as an excuse. "I'm too tired to ------" whatever the reason is. I have friends who say they can't visit because Johnny didn't get his nap. Wow. Ok. I just put my kid in the car and we go to what we had planned (unless they're sick). Johnny can sleep for 20 minutes in the car. I honestly don't see how this can happen unless every waking moment is dedicated to catering to your child/ren. Emotionally, I can be very drained (pre-teens are beasts! LOL) but...what better way to relax than getting busy with my husband, then having a glass of wine and a smoke in the yard? 

It's about priorities. It's about wearing different hats. I have a mom hat, a wife hat, a hooker hat , a friend hat, etc.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

jenis said:


> LOL, I remember in the early 90's reading a book (or maybe a pamphlet?) titled 'The Family Bed'. We never considered it, but knew two couples that had children who refused to sleep in their own beds. They were miserable.......



I know some families that do this. Never understood how they had more than one child.:scratchhead:


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

jenis said:


> LOL, I remember in the early 90's reading a book (or maybe a pamphlet?) titled 'The Family Bed'. We never considered it, but knew two couples that had children who refused to sleep in their own beds. They were miserable.......


We compromise with 15 minutes of cuddles before bed . . . and then it's adult time. And if that doesn't work, there's Melatonin.

Too many parents with too much guilt over how they're messing up their kids, instead of acting like parents. Kids are going to get messed up. It's not a matter of 'if', it's a matter of 'how'. Once you accept that, you can send the little buggers off to bed every night with a clear conscience.

Also got a chance to read "Go The F#ck To Bed" this weekend, the faux-children's book about a parent's exasperation trying to get their kid down for the night. It's priceless.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

People in other cultures have sex all the time around their children while they are sleeping. It's not dirty. 

I would just hate sleeping with my child every night. She is a squirming little chicken butt! LOL! I have been punched, slapped, kicked...during the few times she's slept with us because of being ill.

I just know too many women who talk about motherhood like they are the first women to go through it. It's really not that difficult. You don't have to be a martyr. You don't have to be their playmate. Be a mom, be a wife, be a lover.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Once again, thanks to everyone for chiming in. I brought up the conversation again last night as I was trying to be intimate with her (not sex, just subtle kisses on the neck and carefully exploring w/ my hands, not on erogenous zones) when she told me she felt uncomfortable. I asked her what she meant by that and she explained that her body feels like a vessel for our child and does not see herself as someone sexual. I explained that I never stopped thinking of her as such and told her that I would like to help her feel more like herself again. She seemed to take that well, but later said that she would probably feel up to intimacy again when she stopped breastfeeding and that is a common phenomenon. She plans to stop breastfeeding when the baby is approximately 12-14 months. I shared that I wanted to be supportive, but I am saddened by the loss of the part of our relationship and would hope to not have to wait another 4-6 months for that part of our relationship to rekindle.
> She said she understood my feelings and felt bad that I was saddened and disappointed, but reasserted that it will not get better until she stops breastfeeding. I asked her if there were any other factors impacting the need to wait (e.g., my attractiveness, her perceived attractiveness, mood, etc.), but denied those as reasons.
> ...


Yah. This bothers me too. It is normal for a mom to feel like a 'milk machine' and something not quite like a normal person anymore, especially when breastfeeding. Once the baby starts on solid foods, the time you spend breastfeeding drops dramatically, though. However, I know that it can take a long time for those hormones to level back out (sometimes 2 years). Sex After Childbirth: Resuming Your Sexlife After Birth

BUT, I don't think that's a reason for a wife to throw her husband out to hang in the breeze. When I would be totally kaput, worst case I would lay in bed next to my husband holding him while he would masturbate. Just to have some kind of intimate connection. Would she be willing to be intimate with you in this kind of way? No pressure on her side?

Joe, I would not let this drop. I wouldn't throw it in her face all the time, but I would not let it go. I gave you some other suggestions in a previous post, do you think she would be up for those - trying to stay connected in other ways?

Do you think she'd be willing to read a book like the following with you? Amazon.com: And Baby Makes Three: The Six-Step Plan for Preserving Marital Intimacy and Rekindling Romance After Baby Arrives (9781400097388): John Gottman Ph.D., Julie Schwartz Gottman: Books

God Bless.


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

IanIronwood said:


> We compromise with 15 minutes of cuddles before bed . . . and then it's adult time. And if that doesn't work, there's Melatonin.
> 
> Too many parents with too much guilt over how they're messing up their kids, instead of acting like parents. Kids are going to get messed up. It's not a matter of 'if', it's a matter of 'how'. Once you accept that, you can send the little buggers off to bed every night with a clear conscience.
> 
> *Also got a chance to read "Go The F#ck To Bed" this weekend, the faux-children's book about a parent's exasperation trying to get their kid down for the night. It's priceless*.


:iagree::iagree: I bought this book for my sister in law, who I will meet for the first time tomorrow. My niece is 17 months old, so I'm sure the book will resonate with them.:rofl:

When I read that book, I remember how I tormented my parents from ages 3-8 before bed. I was always a night owl, so I would ask for extra kisses, water, another story...you name it.

I was the only child out of four that slept with my parents for about a year. I was very ill will asthma, which required at least a weekly emergency room visit. It made sense for my parents to be able to reach me immediately, so that they could act faster. Seconds are crucial when a toddler can barely breathe.

One of the reasons I decided not to have a baby, was a colicky infant I took care of. She was six months old and this little girl would not sleep alone in a crib. She had to be in someone's arms or on their chest lying down.  She was kicked out of a home daycare for being too demanding. Her screaming made me cry with frustration sometimes; I even remember having to put the poor child down and walk away for a minute because I was shaking. 


*shudder* If I had to deal with that while hormones were wreaking havoc with my mind, I would probably have a nervous breakdown. My best friend is waking up every three hours with her new daughter-ugh! I need my sleep and my quiet.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

I gaurantee you the breastfeeding timeline is bull****.

You my friend are in for a lifetime of misery if you don't get serious about your needs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I am still not clear how you equate his making his needs know with “demands that his needs be met.” If she is not aware of what his needs are, it makes it much more difficult to lead her to that place. As his attempts to get there have been unsuccessful so far, I fail to see how being even more solicitous to her needs and ignoring his own, as you originally seemed to suggest, was helpful. Otherwise, I have no issue, other than you still seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding about a man’s need for sex with his wife. It is not merely about the physical act that provides relief. It is about the sharing and loving that comes from it, the feeling of closeness that results, and the understanding that it is the one place that you and she alone are a part of.


Tall thats my point. I am not saying that declairing his needs is demanding i am saying it appears to be a demand. I am trying to help him see how a woman might see a discussion about needs. It just does not explain what he is wanting. 

What you said in the highlighted text - that is not a demand that is waht you want it is a loving invitation for her to connect with her husband.

What I am suggesting is that he has to remind her that this is how they fell in love and to sustain that love they have to make love. I am a woman so I am trying to tell you what I hear that may be hindering his message getting across.

When sex is presented as something for the man that the woman gives, you are starting from a bad place. Not many woman view sex that way. 

Women have sex for many reasons but not primarily to satisfy a man's needs. That may be seen as too subservient and backwards. 

You may think that she is not being fair to expect more out of the experience than satisfying his needs but why not accept and use it to move ahead. 

I suggested that he change a few words to say what he really means so she can hear him. It is a suggestion based on my experience in my marriage. 

You said it elegantly in your post and you expressed much more than a need.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Tall thats my point. I am not saying that declairing his needs is demanding i am saying it appears to be a demand. I am trying to help him see how a woman might see a discussion about needs. It just does not explain what he is wanting.
> 
> What you said in the highlighted text - that is not a demand that is waht you want it is a loving invitation for her to connect with her husband.
> 
> ...


Since I last posted, I have read a couple of your posts in other threads, including your “disagreements” with the word need and how it applies to sex in a marriage. While I disagree with your disagreement, I better understand your position, and suspect that our disagreement was based much more on the word choice than the actual position we both intended. 

Having said all of that, I do believe that the OP needs to address this head on. His wife’s language of “being a vessel for the child” sounds a little to close to the Mother Goddess, finally revealing herself in all her glory, deciding that she can no longer be concerned with the base needs of mere mortals. That is a recipe for disaster in their marriage. A minimum of two years without sex (which is what she is proposing) is very likely to lead to resentment. Certainly resentment for his wife, and if he is not careful, resentment for his child. While I am sure he would never consciously do that, it is something to be very careful about.


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Yes, I do feel some resentment toward my wife, but also am upset at myself that I've contributed by minimizing my needs. I want to keep on communicating this to her, but also don't want to drive her away. 

I definitely don't want to resent my child. My child is innocent in this and deserves to be loved. This is between my wife and me.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> Yes, I do feel some resentment toward my wife, but also am upset at myself that I've contributed by minimizing my needs. I want to keep on communicating this to her, but also don't want to drive her away.


Joe, that fear of driving her away will really stop you from making any progress. She has no fear about driving you away by withholding your most important emotional need. She has no fear. Flip it around. What would happen if you did not meet her most important emotional need for 18 months. Do you think she would stay with you? There is no balance in this relationship, and it starts with you being equal to your wife in what you will accept and what you will or will not fear.



JoeHenderson said:


> I definitely don't want to resent my child. My child is innocent in this and deserves to be loved. This is between my wife and me.


Absolutely. Your child is not the cause. The interaction between yourself and her is the cause.


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

I wanted to briefly respond to I believe enlightenment who suggested other forms of sexual contact, including masturbation, while my wife holds me. She wasn't thrilled about such alternatives as there was no pleasure involved for her, but then she also doesn't want it if I offer it. She knows I'm upset about this but only prescribes patience. Well it's hard to be patient when I think and see sex 24/7.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> I wanted to briefly respond to I believe enlightenment who suggested other forms of sexual contact, including masturbation, while my wife holds me. She wasn't thrilled about such alternatives as there was no pleasure involved for her, but then she also doesn't want it if I offer it. She knows I'm upset about this but only prescribes patience. Well it's hard to be patient when I think and see sex 24/7.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wtf? :scratchhead: there are many things I do for my husband that don't give me pleasure. 

Laundry, cleaning, cooking his dinner when he gets home from work at 8:30pm...but it's not about me! It's about the marriage and about his needs. It's about me stepping out of myself and caring for this man that I promised to love. No ego.

Your wife needs a good kick in the va-jayjay. Seriously. Even with sex, sometimes I'm not in the mood (rarely), but I'll still do things to please him because at that moment he wants it and I am more than happy to make him happy. Those are usually the nights I get super freaky with bjs and other things that don't require me to get naked. :rofl:


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Tall I have been thinking. The word need - I need to talk to my husband in order to feel connected to him, I need his non sexual thouch and affection in order to feel desire for him and I need to feel safe in order to be sexually uninhibited. These are needs that if not met will severly hinder my happiness in my marriage. I would resent my husband if he deneyed me what I needed to maintain my connection to me. I would feel he did not care what happened to me

When I think of that I understand a little better what a mature man means about needs. Male sexual needs sex reminds me of teen aged boys trying to pressure girls to give them a bj for relief. They need the bj for themselves or sex the girl is just a convient mouth or vag. 

Some less mature men may view sex as satisfying their need for sex, period. Sex is about their relief and pleasure this is the same as immature women wanting to be showered with conversation, gifts and affection for their personal feel good dose and not as a conduit to connect emotionally with their partner. 

I think i understand better that the desire for sex is a need for continued attachment just like my need for affection for me is a need for continued attachment with my husband.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> I think i understand better that the desire for sex is a need for continued attachment just like my need for affection for me is a need for continued attachment with my husband.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Men need to have sex to feel close. Women need to feel close to have sex.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> I definitely don't want to resent my child. My child is innocent in this and deserves to be loved. This is between my wife and me.


While that is good to hear, be careful and aware of your actions and feelings to avoid this. You are absolutely right that your child is innocent. But is can be very easy to to subconsiously blame that child. In hind sight, I believe an acquaintance did that very thing. He was active in the children's life on the surface (coached them, took care of their basic needs, etc.), but was clear that he interacted with them as little as possible. Aside comments from him, as well as pretty clear commetns from his wife, indicated that his role at best was a servant to her and the children. 

Although I am sure he would strongly deny it, I believe he resented his kids as well. It was wrong, and much his fault, but I don't think he realized it was even happening, so please be careful.


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Thanks for the words of advice, Tall. I need to get this straightened out. I'm going to have a more involved talk with her this weekend. We'll see how it goes. 

To That_Girl, you are one of the special ones. Your husband is very lucky. My W makes it sound like women like you don't exist.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> Thanks for the words of advice, Tall. I need to get this straightened out. I'm going to have a more involved talk with her this weekend. We'll see how it goes.
> 
> To That_Girl, you are one of the special ones. Your husband is very lucky. My W makes it sound like women like you don't exist.


Does she talk to other women? Does she have good female friends? Does she get out of the house without the baby?


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

that_girl said:


> Does she talk to other women? Does she have good female friends? Does she get out of the house without the baby?


Yes, she has girlfriends. A few of them have babies slightly older than ours. I invite her to hang out with her friends while I take care of the baby, but she hasn't taken me up on it.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> Yes, she has girlfriends. A few of them have babies slightly older than ours. I invite her to hang out with her friends while I take care of the baby, but she hasn't taken me up on it.


Don't give her a choice. Take your child out for a walk at the park, and explictly tell her she is not invited. Call one of her friends and have her pick you wife up at the same time. Get her away from the child and interacting as a woman, not as a mom.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Don't give her a choice. Take your child out for a walk at the park, and explictly tell her she is not invited. Call one of her friends and have her pick you wife up at the same time. Get her away from the child and interacting as a woman, not as a mom.


Word. Don't leave it up to her -- force her hand. If nothing else, it keeps her from saying "you never let me have time to myself!" If you put her in a position where she really can't say no, then she'll start to break the inertia.

Besides, kids are great for attracting female attention. Not saying you should cheat, of course, but striking up a conversation with a pretty young MILF at the park can do wonders for your ego and your confidence.


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Hmm, I may have to try this. She has a couple friends pretty close by. Maybe they can go out for breakfast when I take the baby for his morning walk.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Don't give her a choice. Take your child out for a walk at the park, and explictly tell her she is not invited. Call one of her friends and have her pick you wife up at the same time. Get her away from the child and interacting as a woman, not as a mom.


:iagree:


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> Hmm, I may have to try this. She has a couple friends pretty close by. Maybe they can go out for breakfast when I take the baby for his morning walk.


Yes, Joe, start to get her out of the house more without baby. And not just with her girlfriends, but you two alone (without baby). Start getting out and about together - dating like - again.

She has let that 'woman' part of her be shut down by the 'mommy' part and it needs to be re-awakened.

Best wishes.


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Yes, I've got to push the issue more. I've asked her out on dates, but she said she's not ready yet.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Just take her out. Even with the baby. Hubs and I would go to dinner and the baby would sleep the whole time. lol. But she was the perfect baby, unlike our first. LOL


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

We go out with the baby more and more. We've went out recently to a couple nice restaurants.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

That's good. Do it at least 2 times a month. Drink some wine...even with nursing, she can have a glass of wine.


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Thanks, we're starting to go at least twice per month. We enjoy ourselves when we do. Too bad she doesn't drink. I could use a beer though.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Joe, with an 18 month dry spell you are way beyond date nights and letting her have some free time.

You have to have a conversation where she either acknowledges that a marriage is a sexual relationship or doesn't. If she feels that marriages do not need to be sexual, then you two are on a very different page in terms of core values.

IF she acknowledges that marriage is sexual, ask her what steps she needs to take to turn her marriage into a properly functioning marriage.


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Hello everyone,

Quick update: I had a conversation with my wife this weekend, which I hope is a step in the right direction. It was Friday night and I approached my wife from behind and embraced her. I kissed her on the neck and she told me that it felt weird and she didn't know if she was ready for that yet. 

I told her that it was time that I made her feel like a woman and that I was going to start now and not later. I told her that we need to feel each other as husband and wife for her, for me, and for the marriage. She was taken aback, but in a positive way. I'm hoping that means that she is starting to see me differently. 

Anyway, I also told her that I was picking up her BC this week and not waiting for her to decide when she should pick it up from the pharmacy. We didn't have sex that night, but I was able to touch her that night and she communicated when it was too much, but at least she didn't stop me from the onset like she has in the past. 

Like I said, I'm hoping this is a step in the right direction. I also feel more like myself, asserting myself and feeling like a man. I was trying to be extra supportive during the pregnancy and first few months of the baby's life and lost my mojo in the process. I'm getting it back now.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> Quick update: I had a conversation with my wife this weekend, which I hope is a step in the right direction. It was Friday night and I approached my wife from behind and embraced her. I kissed her on the neck and she told me that it felt weird and she didn't know if she was ready for that yet.
> 
> ...


Don't back down, don't apologize, don't second-guess yourself -- and for goddess' sake don't do any of that where she can see you! Confidence is the supreme attractor in both sexes, and you can blow your whole deal if you seem hesitant in the slightest about what you're doing. Proceed as if there were no doubts in your mind whatsoever. 

It's better to be wrong and appear certain than to be right and appear uncertain. Keep pushing those boundaries until she pushes back, and then push just a little more. If she stays in her comfort zone, you won't see much tangible progress.


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

IanIronwood said:


> Keep pushing those boundaries until she pushes back, and then push just a little more. If she stays in her comfort zone, you won't see much tangible progress.


That's what I'm working toward. It's going to happen one way or another. I'm in a different mindset.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## brendan (Jun 1, 2011)

very similar to me Joe - good luck.

3 years since birth and only about 5 times.

will keep a look out on your posts, ive tried everything now we are going to counsilling. most other parts of marriage are fine just a few niggly issues.


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

brendan said:


> very similar to me Joe - good luck.
> 
> 3 years since birth and only about 5 times.
> 
> will keep a look out on your posts, ive tried everything now we are going to counsilling. most other parts of marriage are fine just a few niggly issues.


Thanks and good luck to you. Yes, it seems like most of the marriage is fine. I'm just trying to shake her out of full-time mommy mode. She wants to wait to have sex until she's done breastfeeding, but I'm not ok with that. I'm trying to progressively reintroduce sexual touch to get her used to thinking about and feeling her body that way. I'll keep the updates coming.


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

This is getting tougher and tougher. I've tried to reintroduce touch in our relationship, but I don't know if I'm being impatient or not about. She likes it when I stroke her hair and rub her back, which I do on a nightly basis. After say 15 minutes or so, I might try to make a move such as kissing her on the neck or having my hands gently wander, but she gets upset and tells me that's selfish. The other day when she turned down my advances to pleasure her, I asked for her to do something for me (i.e., HJ or BJ). Once again she told me that was selfish. I was thinking about it and don't think that it is selfish. It really bothers me that she thinks that's selfish. I told her I disagreed and that it's not selfish for a man to want to touch or be touched by his wife, but she thinks I'm thinking about myself. 

This is getting depressing. She says she loves me, but I'm starting to doubt it. I'm starting to think that she thinks she needs me more than loves me.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> This is getting tougher and tougher. I've tried to reintroduce touch in our relationship, but I don't know if I'm being impatient or not about. She likes it when I stroke her hair and rub her back, which I do on a nightly basis. After say 15 minutes or so, I might try to make a move such as kissing her on the neck or having my hands gently wander, but she gets upset and tells me that's selfish. The other day when she turned down my advances to pleasure her, I asked for her to do something for me (i.e., HJ or BJ). Once again she told me that was selfish. I was thinking about it and don't think that it is selfish. It really bothers me that she thinks that's selfish. I told her I disagreed and that it's not selfish for a man to want to touch or be touched by his wife, but she thinks I'm thinking about myself.
> 
> This is getting depressing. She says she loves me, but I'm starting to doubt it. I'm starting to think that she thinks she needs me more than loves me.


I think she may be perceiving that you are touching her merely to try and get sex from her - and you admitted in your scenario you were touching her and then tried to make a move on her - and she's trying to shut that down quickly.

Have you tried touching her in more non-sexual ways and NOT make a move on her - not like 15 minutes of stroking someone's hair, but quick, light touches everyday - a quick stroke of her hair or a quick neck kiss, then smile and wink at her, then walk away, putting your hand lightly on her waist as she gets out of the car, etc. Start slowly and work toward more frequent and longer touches - but work on non-sexual ones where you don't have an expectation of sex and also include more verbalizing - talking with her, listening to her, telling her how much you appreciate her and what she does.

Did you see this thread yet? 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/33190-touching-my-wife-nonsexual-ways-has-lead-more-hotter-sex.html

God Bless.


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> Have you tried touching her in more non-sexual ways and NOT make a move on her - not like 15 minutes of stroking someone's hair, but quick, light touches everyday - a quick stroke of her hair or a quick neck kiss, then smile and wink at her, then walk away, putting your hand lightly on her waist as she gets out of the car, etc. Start slowly and work toward more frequent and longer touches - but work on non-sexual ones where you don't have an expectation of sex and also include more verbalizing - talking with her, listening to her, telling her how much you appreciate her and what she does.
> 
> Did you see this thread yet?
> 
> ...


Thanks, Enchantment. I do the smaller things as well, but it is getting harder to do without feeling reciprocation. On most days, I stroke her hair and massage her without making a move at all. On a daily basis, I also tell her that I love her, appreciate her, and tell her she's beautiful. 

I will continue to do the non-sexual touch as well. Maybe I'm being impatient, expecting it to happen too quickly. 

I haven't checked out the thread, but I will review it. Thanks, I appreciate your support.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

FirstYearDown said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> This happens more often, than most people care to admit.
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

For some reason many if not most folks go into a mode where the children are the number one priority. While they should be high on the list, what is important is that the marriage / family is the number one priority. If the children always come before the parents then the relationship is likely doomed.

This is the scenario where after a while where the wife will feel neglected and start connecting with others outside their relationship and end up in an EA that could progess further.

For sure he is much more vulnerable to an affair. It would not be excused but she has left her husband vulnerable. Again I think she is vulnerable as well.

This couple not getting back on track sexually is the relationship completely coming apart.

Soooooo. I think what needs to happen is for him *to insist that she and he see the doctor together and discuss all the possible physical aspects first.* If she refuses she is destroying their marriage and she should be held fully responsible. To just say that she does not think it is needed is mimizing the importance of this way too much. So a trip to the doctor is too much effort?

I would make the appointment with the doctor anyway. if she did not attend the husband should explain the circumstance to the doctor. Now I am not so naive as to realize that new laws may even prevent the doctor from talking to the husband about this without the wifes consent.

If it gets to this then for the good of the family he must take drastic action. Her refusing to see the doctor is her leaving the marriage and to me is being unfaithful. Yes I said it. If she purposely will not see the doctor and discuss this then she is not being faithful to the marriage. In no way is the husband being selfish here. He is doing what a good partner should be doing.

There is a problem here. We just do not understand the root cause. His wife is in trouble. He needs to not sweep this under the rug if he loves her. Her putting him off some number of months is crazy. She is not trying. She will come up with another excuse then anyway. One would think a woman would want to bond with her husband. 

After the physical aspects are explored then it may require MC/IC. Doing nothing is giving up on the marriage. Again this could lead to both of these folks seeking comfort outside of the marriage.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

that_girl said:


> men need to have sex to feel close. Women need to feel close to have sex.


amen


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

This is troubling really, from my experience with wifey there was never a pause with our sex life with pregnancy, though a bit after it of course, but that solved itself soon enough.



> I told her I disagreed and that it's not selfish for a man to want to touch or be touched by his wife...


Hmmm, personally I disagree with that... but that's just me. I'm never content if my wife does things for me out of obligation, I'm only content with her will.


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

I see what you're saying random dude. I don't mean it to be that she does it out of obligation or duty, just saying I'm not selfish for making requests. 

To me it seems that sexual touch is what separates a marriage from say a platonic friendship. The longer this goes, the less and less I feel like her husband.


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> This is getting tougher and tougher. I've tried to reintroduce touch in our relationship, but I don't know if I'm being impatient or not about. She likes it when I stroke her hair and rub her back, which I do on a nightly basis. After say 15 minutes or so, I might try to make a move such as kissing her on the neck or having my hands gently wander, but she gets upset and tells me that's selfish. The other day when she turned down my advances to pleasure her, I asked for her to do something for me (i.e., HJ or BJ). Once again she told me that was selfish. I was thinking about it and don't think that it is selfish. It really bothers me that she thinks that's selfish. I told her I disagreed and that it's not selfish for a man to want to touch or be touched by his wife, but she thinks I'm thinking about myself.
> 
> This is getting depressing. She says she loves me, but I'm starting to doubt it. I'm starting to think that she thinks she needs me more than loves me.


:rofl: The only selfish person here is your wife! Heaven forbid her husband should want to touch her sexually!  Doesn't she realize how selfish it is to expect night backrubs, yet deny you lovemaking? She is not thinking about you, so you better start thinking of yourself.

It goes both ways! You are NOT being impatient-it has been 18 friggin' months! How much longer can you touch your wife "non sexually."?


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> For some reason many if not most folks go into a mode where the children are the number one priority. While they should be high on the list, what is important is that the marriage / family is the number one priority. If the children always come before the parents then the relationship is likely doomed.
> 
> ...



:iagree::iagree:


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

My wife had issues in regards to this actually. I know you mean well but the act of requesting itself... meh...

Sex is something that has to come from her sure, but it is your responsibility to bring it out of her as a man. My father always told me that power comes with responsibility sure but accepting responsibility for yourself brings you the power to change your own flaws.

This is harsh advice mate, but I took it to heart the hard way earlier on and it helped. The thing is, from your posts it seems to me that you still feel obliged to have her give in to you. Personally marriage to me has no obligations when it comes to sex, it's up to you to build her desire.

If you don't want your marriage to become a platonic friendship, focus on how to rebuild what you have lost. Something that helped in me in the past too was an old saying "Attraction is not a choice"


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

RandomDude said:


> My wife had issues in regards to this actually. I know you mean well but the act of requesting itself... meh...
> 
> Sex is something that has to come from her sure, but it is your responsibility to bring it out of her as a man. *My father always told me that power comes with responsibility* sure but accepting responsibility for yourself brings you the power to change your own flaws.
> 
> ...


your dad was Stan lee?

and I disagree with your statement that it is up to him to build desire, it is up to BOTH of them to do so and she's not doing a thing nor even appearing to make an effort


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

True, but it has to start somewhere, and considering OP's wife isn't making a move to change, a measure of initiative is required.

Whether she meets him halfway or not, is up to her however, but that's stage 2


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Random Dude,

There's no doubt that I have flaws, but I am trying to work on them. That's partly why I'm on this site, for some perspective and consultation. I've also been in counseling to work on myself. 

I don't want her to give in to me, I want her to know that I'm her husband. I'm not trying to be coercive, but I also don't want to ignore the issue, especially hearing the stories of sexless marriages ending in divorce.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

RandomDude said:


> True, but it has to start somewhere, and considering OP's wife isn't making a move to change, a measure of initiative is required.
> 
> Whether she meets him halfway or not, is up to her however, but that's stage 2


oh but he has

and plenty if you ask me, to me it seems as if he has been jumping thru hoops

so let me ask you- is he supposed to be mind a reader and simply guess at how to build desire from his wife?

yet she has refused to communicate as to her reasons for lack of desire, what she wants (other than no sex), and what she likes sexually or to get her going

the poor guy is flying blind and falling without a parachute


it would be one thing if his wife said, "I like it when you do more foreplay" or "say romantic things" or whatever else would get her juices flowing. But all she does is claim that making sexual advances is selfish and gives no clues and doesn't even seem to want sex from ever again.

my god that is no way to function in a marriage


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Oh my yes. I am usually shouted down for asking detailed questions about the kids - the youngest of whom is now 20. Asking to be filled in is perceived as being harsh and negative. Mind you I am still financially supporting them all including the 26 year old who's just starting to get self sufficient. 

Married to the children? That doesn't do the thing justice. Frankly I am shocked that only one still lives at home. He may never move out, ever but that still leaves the other 2.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

I'm not saying you should ignore the issue mate, and it's good that you've come here to seek help - I've gained a TON of help from this forum myself.

You seem like a good bloke, and I understand what you are saying, but I still sense a lot of "obligation" from your posts still, but maybe that's my own issues speaking -> I despise it everytime the missus believes it's her right to feel sex is her right as a wife.

- EDIT - 

@Almostrecovered


> so let me ask you- is he supposed to be mind a reader and simply guess at how to build desire from his wife?
> yet she has refused to communicate as to her reasons for lack of desire, what she wants (other than no sex), and what she likes sexually or to get her going
> the poor guy is flying blind and falling without a parachute


Hmmm, ok thanks for clarifying. BTW, Joe, forgive me, but I just didn't understand the situation fully.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

@JoeHenderson

Alright, I'll try again, after reading the last few pages. One quote did catch my eye though...



> After say 15 minutes or so, I might try to make a move such as kissing her on the neck or having my hands gently wander, but she gets upset and tells me that's selfish.


Tell me how you responded to that.
Darn it, tell me if I'm being too harsh because it's not my intention >.<!


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## Zzyzx (Aug 24, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> This is getting tougher and tougher. I've tried to reintroduce touch in our relationship, but I don't know if I'm being impatient or not about. She likes it when I stroke her hair and rub her back, which I do on a nightly basis. After say 15 minutes or so, I might try to make a move such as kissing her on the neck or having my hands gently wander, but she gets upset and tells me that's selfish. The other day when she turned down my advances to pleasure her, I asked for her to do something for me (i.e., HJ or BJ). Once again she told me that was selfish. I was thinking about it and don't think that it is selfish. It really bothers me that she thinks that's selfish. I told her I disagreed and that it's not selfish for a man to want to touch or be touched by his wife, but she thinks I'm thinking about myself.
> 
> This is getting depressing. She says she loves me, but I'm starting to doubt it. I'm starting to think that she thinks she needs me more than loves me.


This is truly sad that after 18 months she is still telling him that he is selfish for wanting any sexual contact AT ALL.

Without more clues from the wife around her desire, JoeH is still in the wilderness. It is good that he is working on his issues. Perusing Athol Kay's blog may help him there. It's an excellent idea for them to do their best to rule out physical/medical issues. If she won't go along with that much, then Joe has a powerful clue right there and can act on it.

I have seen this sexless marriage scenario among my friends and can tell you that divorce may have to be put on the table after everything else has been tried. Either she figures it out or he leaves. Only he can decide how much more he will tolerate when he has been working on his own issues long enough. If divorce does get put on the table, then he must be prepared to follow through. Have to keep in mind that with the baby, it will cost him in child support, etc., so I get that it really must be the last resort.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> Thanks, we're starting to go at least twice per month. We enjoy ourselves when we do. *Too bad she doesn't drink. *I could use a beer though.


Actually a blessing. I little bit is good but a wife who drinks a lot is a hassle and a half.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

brendan said:


> very similar to me Joe - good luck.
> 
> *3 years since birth and only about 5 times.*
> 
> will keep a look out on your posts, ive tried everything now we are going to counsilling. most other parts of marriage are fine just a few niggly issues.


OMG


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

RandomDude said:


> @JoeHenderson
> 
> Tell me how you responded to that.
> Darn it, tell me if I'm being too harsh because it's not my intention >.<!


Well, I felt defeated. I didn't say anything because of feeling hurt and surprised by the comment.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> This is getting tougher and tougher. I've tried to reintroduce touch in our relationship, but I don't know if I'm being impatient or not about. She likes it when I stroke her hair and rub her back, which I do on a nightly basis. After say 15 minutes or so, I might try to make a move such as kissing her on the neck or having my hands gently wander, but she gets upset and tells me that's selfish. The other day when she turned down my advances to pleasure her, I asked for her to do something for me (i.e., HJ or BJ). Once again she told me that was selfish. I was thinking about it and don't think that it is selfish. It really bothers me that she thinks that's selfish. I told her I disagreed and that it's not selfish for a man to want to touch or be touched by his wife, but she thinks I'm thinking about myself.
> 
> This is getting depressing. She says she loves me, but I'm starting to doubt it. I'm starting to think that she thinks she needs me more than loves me.


You are buying into her thought process, and assigning malicious meaning to her actions.

What you need to do is realize that she is lacking understanding. Look at it like she just needs to learn and be educated. Let God worry about why a women does not understand why sex is important to a man. You should teach her:

-- What sex means to you on an emotional level
-- That marriage needs to be focused in addition to parenting
-- That her and the child's life will be better in a functioning marriage.
-- That her marriage and family are dependent on you meeting her needs, and her meeting your needs.
-- You are willing to allow her to exit the marriage if she chooses not to participate in it as a wife.

Rather than focus on her intents and emotions, focus on teaching her what she does not understand.


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

*Puke!*

When I read about "wives" like JoeHenderson's, I want to weep and throw up at the same time. She is being horrible to her husband. 

*Denying sex is just as bad as denying emotional support. * JH has given his "wife" ample opportunities to improve and he has been patient. 

I wonder if a drastic move like filing for divorce would shake things up. Perhaps the prospect of losing the wallet that pays for her life, would help JH's "spouse" realize that she needs to give as well as take!  JH's "wife" is taking advantage of his dutiful nature. 

She is doing this because she can. Looks like she got married *only *to become a mother. The fact that she refuses to get professional help, shows that this person understands her husband's needs, she just doesn't give a flying f**k.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

So I guess taking her to the doctors is just not going to be insisted on ... go figure.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

JoeHenderson said:


> Well, I felt defeated. I didn't say anything because of feeling hurt and surprised by the comment.


I don't see how one is exactly selfish by making her feel good - considering what you gave her is not exactly sexual, I would have told her that, and clarify with her that it's not about the sex; you just want to show your love for her. 

I wouldn't have allowed her to accuse me like that, but if she rejects even that then it's a bit more complex. Looks like she doesn't even want affection, let alone give you the opportunity to get her in the mood.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Joe ~

I don't have a good view into your wife - like whether she's ever been very sexual, or reasons/insights into why she feels more like a vessel for your child than anything else. What kind of upbringing and background does she have? Does she have a repressive religious or moral background? Did she have other partners before you? Does she have any abuse or negative sexual experiences in her past?

I understand that you are discouraged. But, most things take some time to turn around, and you have to try and stay the course. You should be continurously trying to map out a strategy for the best way forward.

You said that you are going to counseling, which I think is great. Reason why your wife isn't? I think she needs it - maybe even with a sex therapist - a counselor who specializes in sexual issues. I know that you can't get her to go see a counselor unless she wants to do it, but you can continue to frame the issue in terms of your marriage overall - as in, this isn't just about you, but is about the health and longevity of your marriage TOGETHER and ultimately, the health and longevity of your FAMILY. Without a healthy marriage, you will not have a healthy family life - which isn't good for the baby you two just brought in to the world. Maybe if she can start to think about and understand THAT, you will see some traction.

God Bless.


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> Joe ~
> 
> I don't have a good view into your wife - like whether she's ever been very sexual, or reasons/insights into why she feels more like a vessel for your child than anything else. What kind of upbringing and background does she have? Does she have a repressive religious or moral background? Did she have other partners before you? Does she have any abuse or negative sexual experiences in her past?
> 
> ...


Thanks for the support, Enchantment.

To answer your questions, she doesn't come from a restrictive moral/religious background. We've had good sex in the past. She's prided herself in being a passionate Scorpio. 

She's had boyfriends before me, but stated that she was a virgin because she wasn't ready with previous partners or knew they weren't the one. We had premarital sex.

Regarding trauma, she's had guys rub up against her in the club. 

She says her body feels different and can't see herself having two identities, mother and sexual woman. She's also said that holding our baby fulfills her emotional needs. 

I wanted to initiate another conversation last night, but am worried about pressing the issue. I also don't want to let too much time pass. I can't seem to express to her that it's for the good of the marriage for us to become physically intimate. I start the conversation, but kind of shut down when she tells me that she only needs time, not me trying to help her feel like a woman.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> Thanks for the support, Enchantment.
> 
> To answer your questions, she doesn't come from a restrictive moral/religious background. We've had good sex in the past. She's prided herself in being a passionate Scorpio.
> 
> ...


I am sorry, but why are you worried about pressing the issue? What is she going to do, get mad and deny you sex?

I am really at a loss as to why you need to remain patient and continue to be her servent while she basks in her roles as the maternal goddess. She has clearly told you that apart from your paycheck, she does not need you. What exactly are you getting out of this relationship other than a full time nanny for your child?


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I am sorry, but why are you worried about pressing the issue? What is she going to do, get mad and deny you sex?
> 
> I am really at a loss as to why you need to remain patient and continue to be her servent while she basks in her roles as the maternal goddess. She has clearly told you that apart from your paycheck, she does not need you. What exactly are you getting out of this relationship other than a full time nanny for your child?


Catch 22. I get he wants to be caring and all of that, but it is a bit submissive to be afraid to discuss this with her. That is not attractive and makes the problem worse.

I have yet to see a reply as to why he does not insist she see a doctor. her just saying she does not think it is worth doing minimizes this and kind of infers a power struggle.


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## Zzyzx (Aug 24, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> Thanks for the support, Enchantment.
> 
> To answer your questions, she doesn't come from a restrictive moral/religious background. We've had good sex in the past. She's prided herself in being a passionate Scorpio.
> 
> ...


If you talk about it, the worse that can happen is you won't get sex. But wait, aren't you already not getting it? When was the last time you got any? You told us in your thread title. So really, how can really talking about it, getting it all into the open with your feelings known to her, how can that make it worse in terms of not getting any? You are already living the worst it can get. You can only go up from here. Or not. Your choice.

Let's look at it from the other direction: not talking about it will only make it worse for you, you will really start building up the resentment toward her and that resentment will show up in other areas of your marriage. She will pick up on that resentment and bat it back at you. Downward spiral, anyone?

If it turns out that deep down, she has built up resentment for you, hey that's better than nothing, she's given you something to work with.


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

HI there,

So I had a talk with my wife this evening. I expressed to her my concerns that there's been no sexual contact. I told her that I missed the connection and wanted to work toward having sexual touch in our relationship. I said I wanted to help her feel like a woman and didn't want to passively wait for it to happen. I also said we should see a dr to rule out any medical issues. I said being sexual was an important part of our marriage and a way to express my love. 


She said that sexual touch feels weird hormonally and that it was common to not want to have sex for a year after the baby. She said she knew of wives having sex without having the urge and that she didn't want to do that. She said that she would like for me to kiss her on the cheek and hi pug her. She said that I still feel like her hubby and not a friend, that she is attracted to me, but doesn't feel ready to give much of herself to me cuz she Is focused on the baby. She mentioned that her mother warned her about this and that marriages end cuz of lack of sex. She didn't think the dr was necessary, but suggested that we go on dates on our own in a month and believes that sex will come back in a few months. She said she felt guilty for not having sex and thinks about it a lot but can only feel like a mother right now. She doesn't think I'm selfish but feels bad that I push the issue and try to touch her sexually. 

I'm till trying to absorb the conversation and understand how I feel about it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

> She didn't think the dr was necessary,


Why is she afraid to go to the doctor? We keep hearing she does not think it is needed. This is not an important enough problem to waste time visiting a doctor.

It is scary that she throws out a year after the baby. So maybe you get sex one more time and then she is pregnant again. There is another 21 months.

She is being very rational here and putting your needs off completely. She does not want to have sex anyway for your sake. Wow. Would you have married her if you knew this?

Again I am going to cimmit heresy here. Spouses should be each others number one priority. Not their kids. I am not talking about neglecting basic needs. I forget. Does she work? If not she is totally 100% going to nurture the child and everything else in the universe can go jump. You know I have seen some very obsessive moms and their kids grow up very screwed up if it goes on for long. Hopefully she will stop breastfeeding before they go to school.

Again, just a word of warning that at some point don't be surprised when you are not looking sometime in the next year if she starts finding other guys just a bit attractive. You will not look attractive because she will see you as not being agressive enough. If she starts going to the gym, to get back into shape after having the baby just make sure she does not get a male personal trainer. Seriously.

Insist she see a doctor.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Joe, 
I agree that there is no point in her seeing a doctor. This is not a medical issue. This is an issue that her agenda and definition of marriage is the marriage you are in. In her "value system" women are 100% mothers and don't have sex for years with their husband. She created a ficticous world where it is common for wives not to have sex for one year after the baby. She also told you that she is a high quality person who would not have sex without the urge.

She has a clear set of values, and is following them. You have to tell her what you believe in. 

You need to have a series of conversations where you get your wife to understand and AGREES with a few things... 1. Intact marriages are the best for kids... 2. Marriages are different than all other relationships in life in that they are sexual and that the sexual part is very special 3. Husband have to work at meeting the needs of the wife and wive's have to work at meeting the needs of the husband. 4. Her main emotional need are A, B, C and you main EMOTIONAL need (thin thing that makes you feel loved and apprecaited) is sex.

The last thing you do once she understands these concepts (which are you personal marital values) is give her the choice to decide if that's the marriage she wants to be in, or not.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

I wouldn't be surprised that if she actually condescended to go to the doctor, the doc would probably say it's not uncommon for women to have depressed libidoes for a period of time after childbirth and while breastfeeding, and then she would be able to rationalize that her actions are okay.

To me, the crux of the issue is her inability or unwillingness to even bother trying anything that isn't on her time schedule. You have been deprioritized.

There are a lot of things you can do to cultivate intimacy - my H and I used to lay in bed and he would masturbate beside me or I could give him a HJ/BJ when I was down for the count. Those actions didn't always have to involve a lot of touching of my person - so there are ways around it IF YOU ARE WILLING TO TRY. Would she be willing to provide even these basic levels of intimacy with you?

Joe, not sure the best way forward. But, I would say that you need to act confident, calm, upbeat with your wife. Continue to bring this up in a calm manner, and ultimately hold your wife accountable to her statements of promise.

Oh, and you should let your wife know that there won't be other children if it means you get prioritized at the bottom of the queue. That may sound selfish or harsh, but having a strong marital relationship is the BEST gift you can give to your kids, and that only happens when mom and dad make each other the first priority as HUSBAND and WIFE. If she needs to go to some counseling herself (as I suggested before) to help her work through that concept, you should encourage her in that direction.

I think you said you are in counseling? Has your counselor been able to give you any guidance?

Best wishes.


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## Zzyzx (Aug 24, 2011)

> She said she felt guilty for not having sex and thinks about it a lot but can only feel like a mother right now. She doesn't think I'm selfish but feels bad that I push the issue and try to touch her sexually.


Understand something: this just talk, there is NO action on her part to address this. Actions are what you have to look for.



> She said that I still feel like her hubby and not a friend, that she is attracted to me, but doesn't feel ready to give much of herself to me cuz she Is focused on the baby.


Huge red flag right there. Again, saying she's attracted is JUST talk when she is unwilling to do anything at all to meet your needs. Not even a handjob, let alone anything else.

There is no definite "time" when she will ever feel sexual toward you. To that extent, she is gaslighting you into believing this is normal. Bad news. Her actions so far are showing you that she is unwilling to see the marriage as a sexual relationship.

Remember it's NOT her words that count, it's her actions.

My take is she has lost the attraction she had for you. Try Athol Kay's blog Married Man Sex Life for pointers about what you can do for yourself to reawaken the attraction in her. Understand it may be possible you can do all the recommended stuff, but she still won't wake up and smell the coffee.

I agree with Enchantment about telling her there will be no more babies until this is addressed and resolved to your satisfaction.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

I would never put up with this.

I`d already be gone.

Your wife is full of it and she`s stringing you along like a good little puppet.

Joe, you`re somewhat of a doormat and chicks just don`t dig doormats.

Start asserting yourself more forcefully about your needs and make her understand this isn`t an option but a priority.

Set a time limit (A very short one) and if she doesn`t start coming around rock her world a little.
Move out, file for D, start having cute chicks call you when your home with her ..something ..anything.

She`s in some kind of self induced fog and needs to be slapped out of it.


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> I wouldn't be surprised that if she actually condescended to go to the doctor, the doc would probably say it's not uncommon for women to have depressed libidoes for a period of time after childbirth and while breastfeeding, and then she would be able to rationalize that her actions are okay.
> 
> To me, the crux of the issue is her inability or unwillingness to even bother trying anything that isn't on her time schedule. You have been deprioritized.
> 
> ...


I have your same concerns regarding the doctor, but did keep initiating that the dr could have some answers regarding hormonal issues. She got offended, and said that what is going on b/n us is perfectly normal.

I talked to her about our marriage not being a priority. I told her that we should love our child with all our heart, but we still have to think of ourselves and act as husband and wife. She didn't disagree, but said she doesn't see herself as anything but a mother. I told her that I want to help her feel like a woman/wife (that's why I tell her she's beautiful, continue to be playful and affectionate), but said she can only accept hugs and kisses (i.e., kiss on cheek, innocent kiss on mouth). I expressed my dissatisfaction with this, framing it in the "WE need to work on this, not just me" way. 

I told her that I will follow-through on what she needs from me, but stated that I would like her to consider my desire for physical contact, stating that since I can't touch her sexually, I would like her to touch me (i.e., HJ, BJ). She saw that as chauvinistic and putting her in a subservient role. I told her that I get satisfaction from doing things for her cuz she enjoys them (stroking her hair, massage), but she doesn't see the similarity. 

She had mixed feelings about me bringing it up and pressing the issue, but I told her that I believe that I haven't brought it up enough or sooner. I said that it's not healthy for our marriage if I just put on a happy face and pretend everything is ok, because it'll just put greater distance between us. I went on to say that despite her discomfort with the conversation, I'll revisit the conversation because our marriage is important to me. 

I understand that others view me as a doormat to my wife; there's some truth to that, but I wasn't passive during this conversation. I wasn't belligerent either. 

With regards to counseling, my main issue has been managing my self-beliefs about deserving or not deserving to express my needs in intimate relationships. I've made progress, but I admittedly slip up when being called selfish or being compared to her ex-boyfriends who she saw as selfish and chauvinistic. That was not the case last night as I stood up for myself and told her that I'm neither of those things nor am I her ex-boyfriend. I'm her husband and do a hell of a lot for her. 

I said that she might be upset cuz I'm messing with the status quo of me keeping my mouth shut. I wasn't like that earlier in the relationship; I used to speak my mind, but I was conditioned to believe that I'm condescending and selfish and that I needed to be supportive. There may have been some truth to that, but I've taken it overboard and need to right this ship. I told her that she does too. 

She doesn't think that she needs counseling right now, but told her that I thought she could benefit from it as she has in the past.


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Oh and were not having kids in the near future. Not with this going on. I've expressed that to her. She said she agreed.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Hi Joe ~

Yah. Good for you.

Have you ever read the "No More Mr. Nice Guy" book?

http://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf

Or visited the website or forum? 

No More Mr. Nice Guy! - Take the No More Mr. Nice Guy! Self-Assessment

These resources (if you haven't looked at them before) might give you a little bit of additional support in that wanting to be a priority to your wife and in your marriage is neither chauvinistic nor selfish. But she in brushing you off and demeaning what you need out of your marriage is both on her part. I hope that someday she will get to that understanding for both of your sakes.

You do need to calmly call her out when she says those kinds of things to you.

God Bless.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

I think you did good.
Keep it up.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> I wouldn't be surprised that if she actually condescended to go to the doctor, the doc would probably say it's not uncommon for women to have depressed libidoes for a period of time after childbirth and while breastfeeding, and then she would be able to rationalize that her actions are okay.
> 
> To me, the crux of the issue is her inability or unwillingness to even bother trying anything that isn't on her time schedule. You have been deprioritized.
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Do women actually say this to their husband?



> she can only accept hugs and kisses (i.e., kiss on cheek, innocent kiss on mouth). I expressed my dissatisfaction with this, framing it in the "WE need to work on this, not just me" way.
> 
> I told her that I will follow-through on what she needs from me, but stated that I would like her to consider my desire for physical contact, stating that since I can't touch her sexually, I would like her to touch me (i.e., HJ, BJ). She saw that as *chauvinistic* and putting her in a subservient role. I told her that I get satisfaction from doing things for her cuz she enjoys them (stroking her hair, massage), but she doesn't see the similarity.


Seriously? Did she go to Brown? I mean who talks that way?

Wow good luck. This goes deeper in my opinion than hormones.

You may have covered this but does she not even want romantic time or dates with her husband. Will there be any time that you guys spend together?


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> Do women actually say this to their husband?


Anecdotally, yes, they do.




> Seriously? Did she go to Brown? I mean who talks that way?


Who / what is Brown? But yes, there are women who believe that giving their man a HJ/BJ is demeaning / degrading because it isn't a "mutual sexual experience" (I didn't say it!)




> Wow good luck. This goes deeper in my opinion than hormones.
> 
> You may have covered this but does she not even want romantic time or dates with her husband. Will there be any time that you guys spend together?


Way back on this thread somone pointed out how the W is "married to the baby" and the husband is outside the dynamic except as a provider.

The body of evidence for this is not getting any weaker, unfortunately.


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Thank you, all. It's just a start, so I'm gonna keep at it. 

I looked over and did the Mr. Nice Guy assessment and scored high, but have been making progress. The thing is, i wasn't always a nice guy, it happened over the course of our relationship. I'll take a look at the additional resources.


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## Zzyzx (Aug 24, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> The body of evidence for this is not getting any weaker, unfortunately.


Amen.

But Joe... this was a good start on asserting yourself. You found the courage to speak bluntly as you tell her how you feel. Big. Don't lose that courage. If she is becoming uncomfortable with your new found assertiveness, that is a good thing. You can expect more negative comments from her before this is over one way or the other. Be ready for them, do not let them get to you.

"No More Mr Nice Guy" is another good resource for you to check out. Women do not respect Nice Guys(tm). You have a battle on your hands as she is set in her ways; this will take awhile to play out.


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Thanks Zzyzx,

I'm trying to get my edge back. This forum has really helped to shift my point of view and give me confidence. I appreciate all the feedback.


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> Hi Joe ~
> 
> Yah. Good for you.
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

I've downloaded no more mr nice guy and have started reading. I'll check out the forum too. Thanks!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> I have your same concerns regarding the doctor, but did keep initiating that the dr could have some answers regarding hormonal issues. She got offended, and said that what is going on b/n us is perfectly normal.
> 
> I talked to her about our marriage not being a priority. I told her that we should love our child with all our heart, but we still have to think of ourselves and act as husband and wife. She didn't disagree, but said she doesn't see herself as anything but a mother. I told her that I want to help her feel like a woman/wife (that's why I tell her she's beautiful, continue to be playful and affectionate), but said she can only accept hugs and kisses (i.e., kiss on cheek, innocent kiss on mouth). I expressed my dissatisfaction with this, framing it in the "WE need to work on this, not just me" way.
> 
> ...


This is a great first start. I would suggest that you think about the manner in which you conveyed this information and consider how to shake her a bit next time. Not in a mean manner, but in a confident manner that shakes up her view of the world. Based on your posts, you acknowledge being a nice guy. It would not surprise me if she views the above conversation through that lens - you are nice guy who won't actually do anything about the issue. Unfortunately, she has 18 months of evidence and counting to back her up on that assessment.

So the next time she asks you to do something that a husband would do for his wife, consider saying no thank you because you don't see yourself as a husband right now, just as she does not see herself as a wife. Be polite about it, even saying it in a light-hearted manner, but be firm. She is comfortable with how things are right now. You may need to shake things up a bit.


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> This is a great first start. I would suggest that you think about the manner in which you conveyed this information and consider how to shake her a bit next time. Not in a mean manner, but in a confident manner that shakes up her view of the world. Based on your posts, you acknowledge being a nice guy. It would not surprise me if she views the above conversation through that lens - you are nice guy who won't actually do anything about the issue. Unfortunately, she has 18 months of evidence and counting to back her up on that assessment.
> 
> So the next time she asks you to do something that a husband would do for his wife, consider saying no thank you because you don't see yourself as a husband right now, just as she does not see herself as a wife. Be polite about it, even saying it in a light-hearted manner, but be firm. She is comfortable with how things are right now. You may need to shake things up a bit.


Thanks, Tall. I've said no a couple times this past week. She didn't like it, but I was considering my needs as well. For instance, she wanted me to do a chore prior to me leaving for work, but I was already running late. I calmly told her that I cannot do it because I wanted to get to work at a respectable time. She saw me as de-prioritizing her, but I told her that I need to be respectful of each hat I wear. It feels good to start getting my old self back, slowly but surely.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> Thanks, Tall. I've said no a couple times this past week. She didn't like it, but I was considering my needs as well. For instance, she wanted me to do a chore prior to me leaving for work, but I was already running late. I calmly told her that I cannot do it because I wanted to get to work at a respectable time. She saw me as de-prioritizing her, but I told her that I need to be respectful of each hat I wear. It feels good to start getting my old self back, slowly but surely.


Good job. Perhaps the best part of it is that it does not relate to sex - it will be difficult for her to accuse you of throwing a tantrum. Rather, you carefully explained why and kept your boundary. Good luck.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> This is a great first start. I would suggest that you think about the manner in which you conveyed this information and consider how to shake her a bit next time. Not in a mean manner, but in a confident manner that shakes up her view of the world. Based on your posts, you acknowledge being a nice guy. It would not surprise me if she views the above conversation through that lens - you are nice guy who won't actually do anything about the issue. Unfortunately, she has 18 months of evidence and counting to back her up on that assessment.
> 
> So the next time she asks you to do something that a husband would do for his wife, consider saying no thank you because *you don't see yourself as a husband right now*, just as she does not see herself as a wife. Be polite about it, even saying it in a light-hearted manner, but be firm. She is comfortable with how things are right now. You may need to shake things up a bit.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Yes, Entropy and Tall. I'll go ahead and do that. These arguments/confrontations were a long time coming. I appreciate the support. It's nice to have people root for you.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

What is she accountable for, outside the scope of the baby?


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

I love TallAverageGuy's suggestion. What's good for the goose, right?


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Deejo said:


> What is she accountable for, outside the scope of the baby?


The baby.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> For instance, she wanted me to do a chore prior to me leaving for work, but I was already running late. I calmly told her that I cannot do it because I wanted to get to work at a respectable time. She saw me as de-prioritizing her, but I told her that I need to be respectful of each hat I wear. It feels good to start getting my old self back, slowly but surely.


You have to be careful with some of the advice you are getting.

When you are "manning up", this means you are clearly understanding your own principles for what a marriage is. It is not about denying your wife because she denies you.

So, your principle for a marriage should be that a husband puts his wife first in life, and a wife puts her husband first in life. So you at all times want to display that principle.

This is very different than the principle that a Husband will only put his wife first in in life if she puts him first in life.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Hicks said:


> You have to be careful with some of the advice you are getting.
> 
> When you are "manning up", this means you are clearly understanding your own principles for what a marriage is. It is not about denying your wife because she denies you.
> 
> ...


While I agree in principle, I think that thought process is perhaps more dangerous for those like the OP than for others. He has been putting her first for a long time now, to his own detriment. Not only is he not first on her priority list, he does not even make the list. That needs to change. Communicating through words and actions that *her decision *to deprioritize him over the long term will naturally lead to him deprioritizing her is a natural way to start that change while attempting to minimize resentment. 

Assuming the task she asked him to do is something she could have done for herself or was not urgent (and I did not get the feeling that it fell in either catagory), then his response was certainly reasonable. It establishes the boundary that he is not her servant. To me, that is a critical first step.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> While I agree in principle, I think that thought process is perhaps more dangerous for those like the OP than for others. He has been putting her first for a long time now, to his own detriment. Not only is he not first on her priority list, he does not even make the list. That needs to change. Communicating through words and actions that *her decision *to deprioritize him over the long term will naturally lead to him deprioritizing her is a natural way to start that change while attempting to minimize resentment.
> 
> Assuming the task she asked him to do is something she could have done for herself or was not urgent (and I did not get the feeling that it fell in either catagory), then his response was certainly reasonable. It establishes the boundary that he is not her servant. To me, that is a critical first step.


Agreed. Also asking him to do chores that will make him late for work is more of a fitness test anyway. Not reasonable. Him getting to his job is for family good.

I also think meeting needs is conditional at some point. If one spouse stops meeting needs for extended periods of time it makes no sense for the other spouse to continue to meet the others needs as a the top priority. Yes this can spiral but right now thisnis a one way street.

Also we are seeing that her *only* role is the baby. So this situation is probably not even healthy for her.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

As a follow up, Joe, did you ever get your wife out of the house with her gfs (and away from the baby)? If so, how did it go? If not, why not?


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

JoeHenderson said:


> The baby.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Roger that. Figured.


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> As a follow up, Joe, did you ever get your wife out of the house with her gfs (and away from the baby)? If so, how did it go? If not, why not?


Yes, she's been once without baby and once with. It went fine. I would like her to hang out with other friends too, as one of her friends is of the mentality that wives don't have to want/do anything for their marriage- that H's just have to deal with things. It's a work in progress because she feels guilty being away from the baby.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> Yes, she's been once without baby and once with. It went fine. I would like her to hang out with other friends too, as one of her friends is of the mentality that wives don't have to want/do anything for their marriage- that H's just have to deal with things. It's a work in progress because she feels guilty being away from the baby.


I would advise getting her out more without the baby, but do agree that getting her to see different friends is a good idea. Again, I suspect she is far to involved and comfortable in the mother role. Getting her out to act as a woman (as opposed to just a mother) is very important. I would also take the baby out yourself, without her, even for an hour or two, to force her to focus on something else. Finally, I would arrange a sitter and take her out to dinner amovie, something to get her out with just the two of you. Tell her she has only one phone call to the sitter.

I know you are late to the game with some of this, but you need to do it. Be confident and make it clear that taking part in these activities is mandatory for your marriage.


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Sounds good. I take the baby on walks for an hour or so on saturday and Sunday.

I do agree it is time for dates. She of courses hesitant.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> While I agree in principle, I think that thought process is perhaps more dangerous for those like the OP than for others. He has been putting her first for a long time now, to his own detriment. Not only is he not first on her priority list, he does not even make the list. That needs to change. Communicating through words and actions that *her decision *to deprioritize him over the long term will naturally lead to him deprioritizing her is a natural way to start that change while attempting to minimize resentment.
> 
> Assuming the task she asked him to do is something she could have done for herself or was not urgent (and I did not get the feeling that it fell in either catagory), then his response was certainly reasonable. It establishes the boundary that he is not her servant. To me, that is a critical first step.


I still disagree.
If he is purposely deprioritizing her becuase she has done the same, then he should just say that he is going to do that, and why he is doing that. There is nothing wrong with Joe doing that at this point, IMO. 

However, it is a mistake to deprioritze her while simultaneously trying to teach her the lesson that each partner has to prioritize the needs of the other. IF he is trying to teach her that he as her husband will put her needs first, and he expects her to do the same, then he cannot demonstrate otherwise, or she will silently conclude that "he does not want to meet my needs, but wants his needs met".

This is why he has to be careful.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Hicks said:


> I still disagree.
> If he is purposely deprioritizing her becuase she has done the same, then he should just say that he is going to do that, and why he is doing that. There is nothing wrong with Joe doing that at this point, IMO.
> 
> However, it is a mistake to deprioritze her while simultaneously trying to teach her the lesson that each partner has to prioritize the needs of the other. IF he is trying to teach her that he as her husband will put her needs first, and he expects her to do the same, then he cannot demonstrate otherwise, or she will silently conclude that "he does not want to meet my needs, but wants his needs met".
> ...


Yes, the danger is the sprialling downward versus the one-sided behavior. Point well taken. But I do think he should explain to her that he is not feeling like a husband because his wife is MIA.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> The baby.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:scratchhead: Must be nice.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Hicks said:


> I still disagree.
> If he is purposely deprioritizing her becuase she has done the same, then he should just say that he is going to do that, and why he is doing that. There is nothing wrong with Joe doing that at this point, IMO.
> 
> However, it is a mistake to deprioritze her while simultaneously trying to teach her the lesson that each partner has to prioritize the needs of the other. IF he is trying to teach her that he as her husband will put her needs first, and he expects her to do the same, then he cannot demonstrate otherwise, or she will silently conclude that "he does not want to meet my needs, but wants his needs met".
> ...


Again, I don't disagree that this is necessary for the healthy relationship. But when a relationship has become this unhealthy and this one-sided, I truly believe this concern is overblown. In fact, it can back fire. Joe has, for the last eighteen months, demonstrated that she is his first priority. The result has been his needs being ignored. He has provided the example of how a spouse should treat the other and asked her to do the same. For at least the last eighteen months, she has refused and not tried to treat him in the way he deserves. In this scenario, asking him to be careful about setting a good example holds the real danger of him sliding back into the "nice guy" mode, that will only lead to greater frustration and resentment.

As I noted in the post that you quoted, he needs to communication, *through both words and actions*, that her decision to de-prioritize him will result, in the long run, in him de-prioritizing her. Words are necessary so that she understands why, but actions are critical, because he has used words before.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Oddly enough dates are a mistake. They come across as you doing "even more" hoping she will eventually give you a crumb or two.
You will do better:
- prioritizing yourself
- stop conveying to your wife that you are trying to please/impress her
- explain in a nice but firm manner what you expect your wife to do to pull her weight
- in a low key manner you might mention that you have no interest in adding children to a marriage
Where you are not respected.





OTE=JoeHenderson;463451]Sounds good. I take the baby on walks for an hour or so on saturday and Sunday.

I do agree it is time for dates. She of courses hesitant.
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Oddly enough dates are a mistake. They come across as you doing "even more" hoping she will eventually give you a crumb or two.
> You will do better:
> - prioritizing yourself
> - stop conveying to your wife that you are trying to please/impress her
> ...


FWIW, this may be the better option. I had much success in my marriage by being more assertive and requiring my wife to go out on dates and get away from our kids. While doing this, I did focus more on my priorities. She reacted very well to this. But we were never even close to the point that Joe is at. So while my instinct is to replicate what worked for me, MEMS approach may be the better route.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This is just a theory - only Joe will have any real sense of whether it is valid. Joe's wife never liked having sex with him. Pregnancy did two things for her:
- It locked him into the marriage much more strongly
- It gave her an excuse to completely stop having sex 

Before we go any further I am going to try to be neutral here. I have no idea whether Joe's wife is turned off by his behavior outside the bedroom or inside the bedroom. 

The only thing we do know is she was totally comfortable telling him that she was unilaterally shutting their sex life down for 1.5 years+. 

Joe hasn't really demanded an honest conversation and I am sure he has his reasons for not doing so. And by demanded I don't mean a half azzed discussion about how sex is important to him. There is zero point in telling someone something they already know. I mean - demanded as in: Clearly you don't like having sex with me, you need to tell me why. 

Me personally. If my W was sick, I could live without sex and not lose my mind. But if she just decided we were done having sex and was not inclined towards a conversation about it, our marriage would rapidly change. 




Tall Average Guy said:


> FWIW, this may be the better option. I had much success in my marriage by being more assertive and requiring my wife to go out on dates and get away from our kids. While doing this, I did focus more on my priorities. She reacted very well to this. But we were never even close to the point that Joe is at. So while my instinct is to replicate what worked for me, MEMS approach may be the better route.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> As I noted in the post that you quoted, he needs to communication, *through both words and actions*, that her decision to de-prioritize him will result, in the long run, in him de-prioritizing her. Words are necessary so that she understands why, but actions are critical, because he has used words before.


Ok, I didn't notice that.
I think that he has to tell her that he is going to prioritize her because she prioritized him and their marriage. And, it's not "in the long run", it should be in the here and now and consistent.

Basically, I agree with MEM's post 181... He has to stop chasing her and tell her why... and give her the choice to be part of the marriage or not.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

I can identify a little bit with Joe, because I went through a similar thing when the first child was born. 

Deep inside, I was angry and upset for a long time. (Didn't show it though.) Talking about it didn't help even a little bit, but changing the relationship between myself and the baby did. 

By some quirk of chance, I figured out a way to hold the baby that calmed her colicky stomach. (By balancing her butt and feet both on a forearm like a little frog with her head on my shoulder) My wife didn't have the strength in her arms to hold the baby like this for any length of time. The baby stuck to me like glue after that and would cry if my wife tried to hold her. Mom and Baby were no longer off in their own little world without Dad and Mom suddenly "needs" Dad again. (In retrospect, it probably didn't hurt that now I was the one up all night with the baby...) 

Obviously this is just a personal anecdote that's not necessarily helpful. I've mentioned it only to show the dynamic of the situation: There's only one way that two people can pair up. When there's three people; a pairing will always exclude someone. When Mom and Baby go off in their own little world, that "Someone" is the Father. 

--But if you can change the relationship with either of them, you change it with both.


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## Hubby01 (Jul 5, 2011)

I would really like to be able to give this something constructive, I've gone through and read the entire 13 pages. My advice to try and fix this NOW remains current, but I don't have a lot of direction to that statement.

My baby is nearly 2, and while we haven't been completely sexless for the entire time, it may as well have been. We have sex exactly when and how she says, normally once or twice a month when she ovulates. I've run the gambit of almost every approach and nothing as yet has made her accountable for the state of our relationship.

Of course now she wants another baby. It's just a shame I'm so selfish for thinking of the needs of the both of us and our child, before the needs of another baby.


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

From what I have read here, it seems like having a baby robs a wife of needing intimacy from her husband. 

Also, why should Joe Henderson continue to give his wife more attention if _she couldn't care less about him_?? If I were Joe, I would have way too much resentment to plan dates or be romantic. 

Hubby01, your wife clearly sees you as her personal stud horse. *She only wants sex when she wants a baby?* What a disgustingly selfish attitude!

Joe and Hubby01, your wives are comfortable. So make them uncomfortable! I'll bet $100,000 that if a separation occured, both of these women would suddenly find ways to keep their good hubbies around. After all, being a single mom is much more difficult than making love!


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## Hubby01 (Jul 5, 2011)

FirstYearDown said:


> Joe and Hubby01, your wives are comfortable. So make them uncomfortable! I'll bet $100,000 that if a separation occured, both of these women would suddenly find ways to keep their good hubbies around. After all, being a single mom is much more difficult than making love!


I don't want to steal Joe's thread here, but I would happily take that bet. Unfortunately my wife is happily grounded in la la land with very little chance of redemption.

She's now looking into assisted pregnancy because we can't get pregnant. Not only is there minimal sex, there are months when we don't even have sex..........she's whacked!


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## Zzyzx (Aug 24, 2011)

Hubby01 said:


> I don't want to steal Joe's thread here, but I would happily take that bet. Unfortunately my wife is happily grounded in la la land with very little chance of redemption.
> 
> She's now looking into assisted pregnancy because we can't get pregnant. Not only is there minimal sex, there are months when we don't even have sex..........she's whacked!


That's just totally FUBAR. As FYD says above, this isn't a marriage, this is a stud service. Worse, she's not even paying you. You should refuse to participate in any way in the assisted pregnancy. You won't donate your sperm, you won't pay for any consultations, you won't permit your health plan to be used to help, etc. Let her know how you feel about the lack of sex and tell her no more babies until this part of your marriage is better and stays better. Now this is going to take work on your part as well as hers. She may have resentment against you that keeps her from having sex, you will have to get to the bottom of that one.

For possible actions on your part: have you checked into Athol Kay's blog? Also look at the Manning up thread in Men's Clubhouse. You can't make her change, but you can certainly work on yourself.

Anyway, rather than derail JoeHenderson's thread, why don't you start your own if you're serious about getting help from here?


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## Hubby01 (Jul 5, 2011)

I have the help I need and my plan firmly set in place. 

Just trying to make sure Joe realizes he's not alone.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Hubby01,
I will only say this once so as not to be tiresome. And I am not going to debate it with you or anyone else. It just "is" - I didn't make it this way. 

Agreeing to have a child, whether that is first, second, etc. with a woman absolutely signals that you find the current state of the marriage "acceptable". You can tell her you are unhappy. You can complain frequently. It doesn't matter at all. Agreeing to have the child means "I will tolerate your treatment of me open ended". 

It is almost impossible to "unring" that bell. You don't "have the child" hoping that she will then be happy and things will improve. It just doesn't work that way. 






Hubby01 said:


> I have the help I need and my plan firmly set in place.
> 
> Just trying to make sure Joe realizes he's not alone.


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## DesperateHouseWife (Oct 24, 2011)

Joe so... what's going on? How long are you willing to wait for sex? I thought 1week was a long time for hubby waiting when TOM comes,but wow over a year. Another man would had cheated long time ago. You are one of a kind...


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Thanks hubby01. Sorry to hear you're in a similar situation.

Desperate housewife, I'm not sure if being one of a kind is a good thing in this case. 

Anyways, I'll write more tomorrow about some of thoughts and experiences.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DesperateHouseWife (Oct 24, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> Thanks hubby01. Sorry to hear you're in a similar situation.
> 
> Desperate housewife, I'm not sure if being one of a kind is a good thing in this case. It's not
> 
> ...


Have you try wearing sexy undies???

Sometimes ignoring the spouse will make them realize there wrong doing. You do everything for her,and she gives you no booty. SMH bummer


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

*Ladies with babies, please answer*

Hi I'm somewhat new to the forum. Anyway, I have a question for the moms. When did you first start having sex after the birth of your child? One month? Two months? Six months? A year?

Lookin forward to your responses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*

Joe,

This is senseless man.

You`re not going to find any woman here who waited 9 months after birth to resume sex.

Stop trying to justify her disrespect of you.


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*

Not trying to justify, just doing a little independent research. I'm trying to make progress and the arguments have begun, which I think is a good thing. For the record, it's 9 months after birth and nine months during pregnancy- not saying that's a good thing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*



JoeHenderson said:


> Not trying to justify, just doing a little independent research. I'm trying to make progress and the arguments have begun, which I think is a good thing. For the record, it's 9 months after birth and nine months during pregnancy- not saying that's a good thing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My bad (Fixed it) but your not going to find a woman here who waiting 9 months before and 9 months after either.

Your wife has a problem she`s not telling you about or perhaps isn`t even aware of herself.

However the fact that you guys are arguing is a good thing..I think.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*

A doctor will tell you to wait 8 weeks as it takes that long for the cervix to completely close and get rid of the risk of infection to the new Mom but I think women vary based upon hormones, how difficult the birth was, how difficult they find adjusting to motherhood, what the father is like in response to him being a new dad and her being a new mom, etc.

Some women are actually hornier, it's a crazy time as hormones are insane. I was told that a woman's body is not back to her pre-pregnancy biology until 12 months after birth and that's if she's not breastfeeding, breastfeeding will keep her hormones off.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*

I had 6 babies, and for me, I was more horny during pregancy than any other time & after giving birth ( I had all C-sections)... having sex is the one thing I couldn't wait to get back too, we never waited as long as the Doc said, my hormones were raging, I am thinking 3 weeks later at the most. We have 2 sons 11 months apart- we just couldn't wait ! As soon as my scar was feeling decent, I was on top of him! I never breast-fed though. 

Any time a woman breastfeeds, it hinders her sex drive, many men do not know this. Can read about this here >> Breastfeeding and Low Sex Drive - Associated Content from Yahoo! - associatedcontent.com


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*

First baby - greatly increased libido during pregnancy so we went at it like rabbits. After birth - greatly reduced libido for about 12 -18 months. I breastfed for 18 months (and was working full-time, so I was lugging a breast pump back and forth to work). We still had sex beginning at about 6 - 7 weeks after birth - but it wasn't as much as we had had previously, and for me, it was more uncomfortable - I had internal stitches that didn't heal very well and it took about 6 - 8 months before that resolved. I would say fully two years out, we were back to what we had been before.

Second baby - high risk, no sexual intercourse during - the longest time we ever went without that, although did supplement H with other things. Didn't have as much drive, but was much older and had more complications during pregnancy. After birth - again, greatly reduced libido. Had very difficult delivery and very difficult, colicky, sleepless baby (he never slept through the night until 15 months old, and quit taking any naps during the day by 6 months old). Had to breastfeed for 24 months because he had an esophogeal problem and couldn't swallow normally (he is fine now) - also went back to work at 4 months after birth so I was pumping again. It probably wasn't until almost two - three years out after him that my libido and desire really returned, although we engaged in intercourse and other things well before that. I was determined that I wasn't going to let my H have to stagnate, so we worked at trying to make it work as best we could. 

Everybody's different, though. Just depends on your life circumstances, your body, your beliefs, your relationship. For some it's easy and things hum along, for others it's more difficult. For those who it is more difficult for, being the kind of person who has a more positive attitude can help a lot.

Sex After Pregnancy Facts at WomansDay.com - Sex After Childbirth


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Joe,
Enchantment is similar to my W in many ways - all positive.
She had physical issues, desire issues, fatigue etc. She LOVES her H, she respects him and therefore she found a way not to starve him.
My W has had PLENTY of excuses not to play. She doesn't use them. She is very committed to being a great life partner. And in return she has an H who goes the extra mile for her whenever asked. And often without being asked.


I'm somewhat new to the forum. Anyway, I have a question for the moms. When did you first start having sex after the birth of your child? One month? Two months? Six months? A year?

Lookin forward to your responses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*

For me it was 2 weeks  Almost 2 weeks  it was great. He attacked me from behind as I was making the bed. 

We had sex the day I was admitted to deliver lollll I was a horny pregnant lady...our sex life didn't change at all.


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*

Thanks everyone for replying. As W and I have been talking about this, she has told me that it is the norm to go close to a year wo sex. I didn't believe it to be the norm so that is why Im doing this little investigation to remind myself I'm. Not crazy. I know everyone is different and that she a c section and is breastfeeding, but still wanted to get an idea. Thanks all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

I don't think she'd be into sexy undies...but who knows.

I've been giving it some thought and realized a pattern I our relationship. She's gotten maternal before , which has led to her ignoring me. 

First, it was the puppy. We didn't have sex problems, but a great deal of attn was paid to the puppy. 

A couple years later, her brother moved in with us. He was in his mid 20s at the time, painfully shy, anxious about most things, and was adjusting to being away from home. Anyway, we went on much fewer dates when he first came because she felt bad leaving him alone. When we got invited to parties, we often wouldn't go because he was too nervous to meet new people and she once again felt guilty leaving him alone. I told her that I wanted him to be happy too, but didn't like at he was dictating the relationship. She didn't like what I said, but began to understand when her therapist told her that she was ignoring the needs of the relationship. He no longer lives with us. He is back with his parents, mostly for financial reasons. 

So yes, it seems that she gets this tunnel vision when she gets in maternal mode. From past conversations, it seems that she sometimes forgets me cuz she sees me as this sturdy rock who always has it together so she can focus on the one who needs her (puppy, brother, baby). I told her that i need her too and that it's not easy for me to always be the rock who gets overlooked. 


On the bright side, I've been asserting myself more, which has led to some arguments, but we've also made out recently. It doesn't seem like much but a lot better than barely being able to look at her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*

JoeHenderson, you are NOT crazy. I think that the lack of sex, along with the rationalizations from your wife are making you think that you are nuts.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*



wifeofhusband said:


> When we did antenatal classes with our first we were given a handout that stated that the average number of times a couple has sex in the year after birth is 3-5 times. I don't know what the source was, or the accuracy of it, but that was the info we were given.
> 
> I personally found that when I was breastfeeding and not having cycles, my sex drive was very low. When my cycles resumed it was back to normal. I'm figuring the hormonal changes were responsible. The first month it returned I was very keen. Then it settled back to normal. All my babies were over a year old when my cycles did return. I'm mentioning this as you've said your wife is breastfeeding and it may have some bearing on your situation.


My opinion differs from the man's opinion here and most women apparently. I think if you want her back, arguing about it isn't going to help and will further the divide between you both.

Who cares what the norm is? If your wife isn't horny and doesn't want to have sex with you it doesn't really matter if most women do want to have sex with their husbands.

I don't think putting your foot down is going to work either. I mean what are you going to say exactly? "Listen biatch, you may be breastfeeding our nine month old son after having him taken out of your scarred tummy and carrying him for 9 months before but I have needs too and I want sex! sex! sex! or I'm going to cheat on you because my penis wants to cum!"

You'd be far better off to empathize with her and work to get to exactly where she is in her mind so that you can happily lead her back to you and back to your bedroom.

I had sex with my husband two weeks afterwards with most of our children. I did it out of obligation. I worried for days afterwards that I would get an infection but I did it because I thought his needs/desires superseded my own. We also screwed like rabbits during pregnancy. Oh, great, my husband is so lucky. Give me an f'ing break. Luck is the couple who truly listens and understands the needs of one another and gets that down so well that resentment is an impossibility.


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*

Trenton, JoeHenderson has already tried to be patient and emphathetic. It _has _been almost a year after all and she won't even allow kisses. It is not all about his wife; he is important too. 

From what I have read of his situation, she doesn't care about how he feels. She says that she gets all the love she needs from the baby and _he is selfish for wanting sex_. 

The "Nice Guy" approach has failed miserably, so why is putting his foot down the wrong thing to do? He can assert his need for intimacy without being mean. 

You cannot tell me that JH's wife is being fair to him, herself or the marriage.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*



FirstYearDown said:


> Trenton, JoeHenderson has already tried to be patient and emphathetic. It _has _been almost a year after all and she won't even allow kisses. It is not all about his wife; he is important too.
> 
> From what I have read of his situation, she doesn't care about how he feels. She says that she gets all the love she needs from the baby and _he is selfish for wanting sex_.
> 
> ...


I read his other posts.

If he doesn't begin to understand her he will lose her. She has to be woken up. Him becoming big headed and telling her his needs have to come first is not going to help the situation.

Nice guy approach isn't going to work either because apparently both the tough guy and the nice guy are self focused. He has to become her focused so that he truly understands what is going on and doesn't stay alone that's the only way he has a chance of leading her back with him.

Fair? What is fair really? What is only fair to ourselves?


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*

Until Joe is actually prepared to do 'something', none of it matters. None. Not the discussions. The emotions. The opinions. The hurt.

Absolutely nothing happens. Until Joe chooses to make something happen. His wife isn't going to do it.

She isn't interested in being a wife. She wants to be a mother. Joe's role is to make that easy for her. That is what she expects of him. That is all she expects of him.

So the question remains if that is all he expects of himself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*

Exactly, Deejo!


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*



Deejo said:


> Until Joe is actually prepared to do 'something', none of it matters. None. Not the discussions. The emotions. The opinions. The hurt.
> 
> Absolutely nothing happens. Until Joe chooses to make something happen. His wife isn't going to do it.
> 
> ...


He's doing something...he's trying to figure out if how he feels is fair. He's taking a poll to decide if he's justified in taking action. If you ask me, that's a bad reason to take action and really dangerous because if he takes the wrong advice he could destroy his family.

His wife is a new Mom. I don't think it's unusual for a new Mom to get stuck in Mom mode. That's really his question. He's making it about sex but what he really wants to know is if it's normal for his wife to shut him out and focus entirely on the pregnancy and the baby. *I think this is normal even if it shouldn't be*. 

Women need help understanding this but being cruel to her or demanding something from her isn't going to help her understand. So what would?


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## DesperateHouseWife (Oct 24, 2011)

Do like my husband go in the bedroom close the door,and shake your penis lolz... Some men do things just to score it's funny to me,but I know it's not laughing matter,but someone gotta do something. If I was a man I would pretend she wasn't there and play with my self. I'm bad I know. A penis is such a beautiful thing I don't know how you even got a chance to make a baby with the cold wife of yours. I feel so extremely bad for you.

I was thinking about you earlier,and it wasn't good. I picture you going about your daily life,and running into a beautiful woman telling her all your problems,and her feeling so bad for you,and next thing you know from the lack of loving from your wife you guys ended up hooking up,ad finally you exploded all that hottest in your body. What a relief... "I was only thinking this" I'm not saying cheat or anything,but wow enough is enough.

Tell your wife do you want me to get sex from someone else? I wonder what she would say.. smh


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

I know. I don't want to have an affair either but it doesn't help that my workplace is like 90% female.

It is so interesting to hear you say that a penis is a beautiful thing cuz that sounds so foreign to me being around my wife who seems aversive to it now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*

Yes immtrying to gain some perspective and support. I try to make my own decision with the info I get here. This thread is more to find out how common or uncommon this situation is. I've been receiving lots of good feedback about how to approach it on this thread: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...-pregnancy-18-months-total-14.html#post466248

Feel free to give your two cents.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This reminds me of a long ago male poster that went like this:
- after 3 years of a totally sexless marriage I turned to porn
- a year later my W found out and got upset
- in therapy she claims she is turned off to sex with me because I watch porn

The reason I mention that post is Many posters are talking about mommy mode. But all this happened soon as she got pregnant. unless Joe
Deals with the fact that she does not like sex with him, he is hosed.



TE=Deejo;466158]Until Joe is actually prepared to do 'something', none of it matters. None. Not the discussions. The emotions. The opinions. The hurt.

Absolutely nothing happens. Until Joe chooses to make something happen. His wife isn't going to do it.

She isn't interested in being a wife. She wants to be a mother. Joe's role is to make that easy for her. That is what she expects of him. That is all she expects of him.

So the question remains if that is all he expects of himself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*

When a woman says she gets all the love she needs from her children, that is a huge worry for me. 

It's also not normal when that woman is married. I don't understand.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*

The issue is not, 'when will she want to have sex', based on polling other women that have had children.

The issue, as has been pointed out by posters in BOTH threads, is that despite your patience, support, understanding, trying calm, open communication ... Being rejected, and admonished, then in turn meeting that with more patience and understanding is NOT going to change these circumstances at all.

Despite all of the emotions and rhetoric, there are practical outcomes in play if your wife chooses not to be a wife.

Those outcomes are largely going to be influenced by the choices you make.

What you would be wise to see and understand, is that what is happening between you and your wife has far less to do with your child than either of you are aware of.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*



Deejo said:


> The issue is not, 'when will she want to have sex', based on polling other women that have had children.
> 
> The issue, as has been pointed out by posters in BOTH threads, is that despite your patience, support, understanding, trying calm, open communication ... Being rejected, and admonished, then in turn meeting that with more patience and understanding is NOT going to change these circumstances at all.
> 
> ...


What if she sees her being a good Mom as being a good wife? As in...here I am taking beautiful care of our baby and you don't appreciate this enough to recognize that "our" needs are not important right now?

I recognize how this thinking is flawed but what I'm saying here is that she may not see herself as being a bad wife but rather sees the OP as lacking understanding or recognition of how what she is doing is also a sacrifice and one she thought they would both want to make for their family.

You see it as her not being a wife but then how do we define a wife? Can a woman who doesn't want to have sex with her husband because she's too busy with their new family be considered the antithesis of a wife?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*

And how does that pertain to immediately and 100 percent stopping sex as soon as she got pregnant?




Trenton said:


> What if she sees her being a good Mom as being a good wife? As in...here I am taking beautiful care of our baby and you don't appreciate this enough to recognize that "our" needs are not important right now?
> 
> I recognize how this thinking is flawed but what I'm saying here is that she may not see herself as being a bad wife but rather sees the OP as lacking understanding or recognition of how what she is doing is also a sacrifice and one she thought they would both want to make for their family.
> 
> You see it as her not being a wife but then how do we define a wife? Can a woman who doesn't want to have sex with her husband because she's too busy with their new family be considered the antithesis of a wife?


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## DesperateHouseWife (Oct 24, 2011)

I hate that you feel this way. I sure hope she gives in soon before you go else where.


----------



## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*

I believe the greatest gift a wife can give to her child(ren) is that of loving and caring for her husband. I'm a strong believer that a happy marriage will help foster the happy home life children need in order to grow and flourish as they grow up and that as they become adults they can model the same behaviour.

That does not mean that a wife must have sex whenever the husband feels like it. But, it does mean that the wife should make it a priority to understand and care about what is important to her husband, and to have a willingness to work on things that are of an issue. Likewise, the husband should also make it a priority to understand and care about what is important to his wife, and to have a willingness to work on things that are of an issue.

As a wife myself and being in some dicey physical situations after childbirth, when I would express my concerns to my husband and was willing to try and work with him, he was more than willing and happy to also work with me. He would know when I was unduly fatigued or didn't feel very well, and there were many, many nights when we would kiss and just lay wrapped in each other's arms. We were a 'team' together.

To me, the issue with Joe's wife is that she seems to be very happy de-prioritizing him. I don't think it's wrong for him to try various avenues to try and express that this de-prioritization concerns him. And I don't believe it's just all about sex - it's more about having your spouse care enough for you to listen and care about your concerns - whatever they may be.


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*



Trenton said:


> What if she sees her being a good Mom as being a good wife? As in...here I am taking beautiful care of our baby and you don't appreciate this enough to recognize that "our" needs are not important right now?
> 
> I recognize how this thinking is flawed but what I'm saying here is that she may not see herself as being a bad wife but rather sees the OP as lacking understanding or recognition of how what she is doing is also a sacrifice and one she thought they would both want to make for their family.
> 
> You see it as her not being a wife but then how do we define a wife? *Can a woman who doesn't want to have sex with her husband because she's too busy with their new family be considered the antithesis of a wife*?


When you're talking about almost two years of not even affection allowed, she is not being a wife. Marriage includes physical contact, in order to enhance intimacy.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*



MEM11363 said:


> And how does that pertain to immediately and 100 percent stopping sex as soon as she got pregnant?


How does it not? The trouble in their relationship began as soon as she found out she'd be bringing their child into the world.

Are her behaviors extreme? Absolutely. Are they hurting her marriage? Absolutely. Are they how she truly feels? We're assuming so.

I don't think it's _fair_ to disqualify her as a wife because she's making choices that she sincerely feels are beneficial to her family. There are better ways to bring her back and give her perception than to disqualify her as a wife and tell him to begin working on himself and his needs.


----------



## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*



Enchantment said:


> I believe the greatest gift a wife can give to her child(ren) is that of loving and caring for her husband. I'm a strong believer that a happy marriage will help foster the happy home life children need in order to grow and flourish as they grow up and that as they become adults they can model the same behaviour.
> 
> That does not mean that a wife must have sex whenever the husband feels like it. But, it does mean that the wife should make it a priority to understand and care about what is important to her husband, and to have a willingness to work on things that are of an issue. Likewise, the husband should also make it a priority to understand and care about what is important to his wife, and to have a willingness to work on things that are of an issue.
> 
> ...


I get what you're saying and I agree with it. Children who grow up in happy homes with two parents where both of the parents' needs are considered are better off than otherwise. If she doesn't share your perception and she feels she is taking his needs into consideration by caring for their baby then how is your advice going to help?

Isn't it possible that she feels she is prioritizing him by prioritizing their child? My point is, the problem here may be that she feels she is sacrificing and not meeting her own needs either but feels an obligation to do this and expects him to make the same sacrifice.

The only solution is for her to understand that they both deserve better and this will be overall better for the child anyway. How do you do that?


----------



## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*

Being a wife is much more than only being a mother. Women who choose not to have children or suffer from infertility, have to define themselves in other ways. 

I love the way my husband and I have the freedom to prioritize each other.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Trenton said:


> The only solution is for her to understand that they both deserve better and this will be overall better for the child anyway. How do you do that?


Why in the hell you consistently want to focus on the person that ISN'T looking for help and support I find intriguing.

But ... To answer your question is easy enough. And you know the answer, you just don't like the answer.

Destabilize the relationship.

Something that Joe is not nearly prepared to do, based on his responses and behavior. Time will tell.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*



Deejo said:


> Why in the hell you consistently want to focus on the person that ISN'T looking for help and support I find intriguing.
> 
> .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She isn't. She is trying to see both sides of the relationship. As she said, is this situation right? No. Is it healthy? No but should the woman in question be discounted as being less than for her behavior? Not so quickly. It might be possible that she truly feels like Trenton mentioned. If that is the case, then the answer is to figure out why she feels that way, not to seek validation that his feelings that she is negligent is correct. I probably didn't word that right but hopefully you understood what I meant.


----------



## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*



Deejo said:


> Why in the hell you consistently want to focus on the person that ISN'T looking for help and support I find intriguing.
> 
> But ... To answer your question is easy enough. And you know the answer, you just don't like the answer.
> 
> ...


Hey now, no need to get hell involved.

To obliterate your intrigue I will tell you why I insist on focusing on the person who is not here for help.

1. The person posting is here because they want help with the relationship with the other person.

2. The other person plays a direct role in the problem and so should be considered in any solutions being offered.

3. Many times the person looking for help may have allowed their own perception to limit the possibilities of thoughts/feelings of the person that is not looking for help.

5. The person looking for help is going to automatically discount and overlook the other person who is not here so advice they might receive, if discounting the other person in the relationship, will not be the best advice.

6. Possibilities, Deejo, possibilities.

Destabilizing the relationship for what? I mean, what is the actual intent? Is he doing it to promote his own happiness and needs? -or- is he doing it to get a better relationship for both him, his wife and their child?

If we focus on the later then I think the outcome will be better but I have a sinking feeling we'll be going towards the first and, you're absolutely right, I don't like that answer. I don't see it as a solution.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

T,
I am genuinely confused. There is no basis at all for stopping sex when you get pregnant.
My whole theme here is that this is not about prioritizing the baby but rather deprioroizing Joe.
We can go back and forth endlessly on the post birth behavior and we won't ever see eye to eye. And that is fine. But the pregnancy behavior offers a very clear picture of what is happening.
Until Joe realizes that deejo is right and this has little to do with the baby, he is going to be treated as little more than a paycheck mule.



TE=Trenton;466420]How does it not? The trouble in their relationship began as soon as she found out she'd be bringing their child into the world.

Are her behaviors extreme? Absolutely. Are they hurting her marriage? Absolutely. Are they how she truly feels? We're assuming so.

I don't think it's _fair_ to disqualify her as a wife because she's making choices that she sincerely feels are beneficial to her family. There are better ways to bring her back and give her perception than to disqualify her as a wife and tell him to begin working on himself and his needs.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Deejo,
Actually it is worse than that. There is an attempt to "jump over" the first 9 months of this behavior.
Because that time period was 100 pct husband and wife. There is no baby in the picture to create doubt as to what is really happening.

I fear that Joe and hubby01 don't quite understand the dynamic. H01 is allowing himself to be relegated to sperm donor/ATM machine and yet claims he has a plan. And Joe seems to hope he can manage his marriage by some type of online polling.

If he really wants to take a poll he should look at how many marriages become instantly sexless at conception.
Better yet of the small pct that do he should find out how many become permanently sexless as that is where he is heading.

>>>>>>>>>
in the hell you consistently want to focus on the person that ISN'T looking for help and support I find intriguing.

But ... To answer your question is easy enough. And you know the answer, you just don't like the answer.

Destabilize the relationship.

Something that Joe is not nearly prepared to do, based on his responses and behavior. Time will tell.
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*

Neither myself, nor MEM posts with the intent of marginalizing women or breaking up marriages. Hope we can agree on that.

The sooner he chooses to define, stand up for and defend his needs and what makes him happy, the sooner he will discover if he has a partner that is or isn't invested in a relationship that meets her needs, his needs, and their childs needs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*



Deejo said:


> Neither myself, nor MEM posts with the intent of marginalizing women or breaking up marriages. Hope we can agree on that.
> 
> The sooner he chooses to define, stand up for and defend his needs and what makes him happy, the sooner he will discover if he has a partner that is or isn't invested in a relationship that meets her needs, his needs, and their childs needs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think anybody is suggesting that either of you two are. I CAN however see it from her perspective although I was not in that position. She is a new mother who didn't want sex during pregnancy and 9 months after. It is fairly normal to not want sex with a baby. You guys are always talking biology, right? What female in the animal kingdom wants sex after she is pregnant and shortly after giving birth? It is a biological response to hormones and hard wired to not want to get pregnant again as her body/resources cannot support it. 
I don't think Joe's wife is that abnormal. I think throwing around terms like disrespect and destablizing the relationship are dangerous things.
**Wanted to add that you asked him what her responsibility is and Joe answered "the baby". His response was very telling to me. It smacked of "just the baby" as if she "only" has a 9 month old to look after. It sounded like HE marginalized what she was doing and yeah, I didn't feel sexy reading it. If I read it wrong than apologizes in advance. If Joe does think that taking care of a 9 month old is easy, then he needs a reality check. I nearly pulled my hair out as a SAHM and I went back to work to get a break**


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*

The intention of the polling is not to manage my marriage. It was to gain some perspective. In hindsight I recognize it is not very useful. However, saying that the polling is my strategy is minimizing what I have been doing. Am I preparing for separation or divorce at the moment? No, I am not, but I am trying to assert myself in other facets of my marriage in addition to the sex issue, knowing that sex is just a symptom of this whole mess I am a part of.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Yes. And for the record it is never my intent to coach someone to extort sex using the threat of divorce. I am however on board with the idea that you should not stay in a marriage where you partner openly and chronically lies to you about critical issues and/or shows you no respect.
But that is just me. 
So my advice isn't: apply pressure by deprioritizing her to get sex.
Instead it is: apply pressure to get the truth and get respect. Without those 2 things the marriage is toxic for him.

And as always by pressure I mean - do less - show less love - in short destabilize the relatioship via increasing levels of indifference.

OTE=Deejo;466477]Neither myself, nor MEM posts with the intent of marginalizing women or breaking up marriages. Hope we can agree on that.

The sooner he chooses to define, stand up for and defend his needs and what makes him happy, the sooner he will discover if he has a partner that is or isn't invested in a relationship that meets her needs, his needs, and their childs needs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

MEM11363 said:


> Yes. And for the record it is never my intent to coach someone to extort sex using the threat of divorce.


Agreed.


> So my advice isn't: apply pressure by deprioritizing her to get sex.
> Instead it is: apply pressure to get the truth and get respect. Without those 2 things the marriage is toxic for him.
> 
> And as always by pressure I mean - do less - show less love - in short destabilize the relatioship via increasing levels of indifference.


Which the effectiveness of in reframing and addressing the dynamic of the relationship isn't in any doubt, particularly based upon the response that its mere suggestion gets here. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*



MEM11363 said:


> T,
> I am genuinely confused. There is no basis at all for stopping sex when you get pregnant.
> My whole theme here is that this is not about prioritizing the baby but rather deprioroizing Joe.
> We can go back and forth endlessly on the post birth behavior and we won't ever see eye to eye. And that is fine. But the pregnancy behavior offers a very clear picture of what is happening.
> Until Joe realizes that deejo is right and this has little to do with the baby, he is going to be treated as little more than a paycheck mule.


I think we need more information about the wife and Joe here if he really wants help. It's hard to tell at this point what really is going on but it seems like a strange coincidence that as soon as the idea of caring for their child came into play, the wife changed priorities completely.

How can Deejo possibly know what this has to do with really?

Doesn't it make you a little uncomfortable to believe there are such quick, easy solutions to this situation?

Destabilize the relationship and create resentment. That's what I believe will happen. Do you think destabilizing the relationship will wake the wife up and have her realize her past mistakes? What makes you think this?

If Joe loves his wife then he would want a solution that not just works for him but will also work for his wife. He wants that type of solution and he's going to have to include his wife in his choices.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*



JoeHenderson said:


> The intention of the polling is not to manage my marriage. It was to gain some perspective. In hindsight I recognize it is not very useful. However, saying that the polling is my strategy is minimizing what I have been doing. Am I preparing for separation or divorce at the moment? No, I am not, but I am trying to assert myself in other facets of my marriage in addition to the sex issue, knowing that sex is just a symptom of this whole mess I am a part of.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Joe, how do you think your wife would sum up your relationship right now? You said she is content with the love from the child. Did you clearly express how confusing and upset this makes you? I'm wondering if you focus on the sex issue even with her, allowing her to dismiss that this is personally affecting you greatly beyond just sex.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*



Deejo said:


> The issue is not, 'when will she want to have sex', based on polling other women that have had children.
> 
> *The issue, as has been pointed out by posters in BOTH threads, is that despite your patience, support, understanding, trying calm, open communication ... Being rejected, and admonished, then in turn meeting that with more patience and understanding is NOT going to change these circumstances at all.*
> 
> ...


Yes. All that will get him is more of the same. No sex. If a dog bites me and I demonstrate patience and tolerance for sure the dog will bite me again.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*



JoeHenderson said:


> The intention of the polling is not to manage my marriage. It was to gain some perspective. In hindsight I recognize it is not very useful. However, saying that the polling is my strategy is minimizing what I have been doing. Am I preparing for separation or divorce at the moment? No, I am not, but I am trying to assert myself in other facets of my marriage in addition to the sex issue, knowing that sex is just a symptom of this whole mess I am a part of.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


As far as I can recall only once I went more than two weeks without sex in 42 years with my wife, that was when she had her hysterectomy. I just can’t remember how long we went after the birth of our two sons but I would guess a month. The times without sex were my choice my wife never said no to me. I think that’s the way my wife kept me by her side for so very long, sex and I was exceptionally well fed and looked after, truly blessed.

What you can do about your situation is way beyond me but I think she has you by the throat, a terrible situation for a man to be in. But I will tell you keep on doing the same things with your patience and tolerance etc. and you will keep on getting the same results.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*



Deejo said:


> Neither myself, nor MEM posts with the intent of marginalizing women or breaking up marriages. Hope we can agree on that.
> 
> The sooner he chooses to define, stand up for and defend his needs and what makes him happy, the sooner he will discover if he has a partner that is or isn't invested in a relationship that meets her needs, his needs, and their childs needs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know that is not your intent but I think it is often the end result. The only question in my mind is whether or not the relationship was already doomed or if the information followed actually pushes the fragile relationship off the cliff.

I don't like this idea that withholding equates re-establishment of the relationship. To me, I think it might initially create a re-establishment but that eventually resentment on the opposite side will push it backwards. The only way I see a relationship to truly be re-established is through mutual understanding and commitment and an empathy & acceptance for one another. If that's not possible, it's just a matter of time before one or the other again repeats the cycle.

There are ways to ignite spark in a relationship besides through withholding and manipulative behavior. I don't feel that women or men are children. *Boundaries are important and not accepting our boundaries being crossed to the point of misery is fair enough, treating one another like pawns to fulfill our own needs pretty much stinks.*

I get that I'm on my own here. Not much I can do about that.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*



MEM11363 said:


> T,
> I am genuinely confused. There is no basis at all for stopping sex when you get pregnant.
> My whole theme here is that this is not about prioritizing the baby but rather deprioroizing Joe.
> We can go back and forth endlessly on the post birth behavior and we won't ever see eye to eye. And that is fine. But the pregnancy behavior offers a very clear picture of what is happening.
> Until Joe realizes that deejo is right and this has little to do with the baby, he is going to be treated as little more than a paycheck mule.





Deejo said:


> Neither myself, nor MEM posts with the intent of marginalizing women or breaking up marriages. Hope we can agree on that.
> 
> The sooner he chooses to define, stand up for and defend his needs and what makes him happy, the sooner he will discover if he has a partner that is or isn't invested in a relationship that meets her needs, his needs, and their childs needs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





AFEH said:


> Yes. All that will get him is more of the same. No sex. If a dog bites me and I demonstrate patience and tolerance for sure the dog will bite me again.


So basically what you're saying is that Joe's wife took a concious, reasoned decision to deprioritise Joe's desire for sex, to ensure that she could entwine herself with the child? That she sat down and coldly and calmly determined that she would take sex off the agenda? That not only is there is absolutely _no_ truth whatsoever in what Trenton wrote, but _*there can never be any truth in it*_ - it is an entirely hypothetical scenario that simply can never happen? That the only possible thing is that Joe's wife woke up pregnant and decided that she would stamp her authority on the marriage by refusing sex, and the only way out of this is to "shake her up"?


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*



Sawney Beane said:


> So basically what you're saying is that Joe's wife took a concious, reasoned decision to deprioritise Joe's desire for sex, to ensure that she could entwine herself with the child? That she sat down and coldly and calmly determined that she would take sex off the agenda? That not only is there is absolutely _no_ truth whatsoever in what Trenton wrote, but _*there can never be any truth in it*_ - it is an entirely hypothetical scenario that simply can never happen? That the only possible thing is that Joe's wife woke up pregnant and decided that she would stamp her authority on the marriage by refusing sex, and the only way out of this is to "shake her up"?


Don’t be silly, I haven't a clue what Joe's wife's thoughts are. Not a clue. But if he keeps doing the same things he's going to keep getting the same results.

His wife is already into MASSIVELY HABITUAL BEHAVIOUR. And that behaviour is NO SEX. Sounds to me like she’s addicted to NO SEX. And because of that she doesn’t give a fig about keeping him by her side.

The man has needs and she sure isn’t satisfying them!

What happens next?


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*



AFEH said:


> Yes. All that will get him is more of the same. No sex. If a dog bites me and I demonstrate patience and tolerance for sure the dog will bite me again.


Do you think his wife is comparable to a dog? Seriously?


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Trenton said:


> Do you think his wife is comparable to a dog? Seriously?


Ah, misdirection. 

And to answer your previous bit, she already resents him ... Despite his belief he's doing all the right things.

I'm also not saying there isn't any truth to your position ... But your position still lacks an actionable plan.

I like that you and TRBE stand out there in a storm. 

My issue is that you frame the dissolution of the relationship as a loss ... It's Joes to win or lose if he doesn't get it 'right'.

I just don't see it that way.

Joe needs to come to terms with what 'winning' for his circumstances looks like.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*



Sawney Beane said:


> So basically what you're saying is that Joe's wife took a concious, reasoned decision to deprioritise Joe's desire for sex, to ensure that she could entwine herself with the child? That she sat down and coldly and calmly determined that she would take sex off the agenda? That not only is there is absolutely _no_ truth whatsoever in what Trenton wrote, but _*there can never be any truth in it*_ - it is an entirely hypothetical scenario that simply can never happen? That the only possible thing is that Joe's wife woke up pregnant and decided that she would stamp her authority on the marriage by refusing sex, and the only way out of this is to "shake her up"?


Exactly. 
Trenton doesn't know anything about pregnancy and giving birth and breast feeding and having three children and hormones and emotions and what not. Nope. Let's discount her opinion and listen to men, in the Ladies forum. The same men who discount her in the Mens forum.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*



Deejo said:


> Ah, misdirection.
> 
> And to answer your previous bit, she already resents him ... Despite his belief he's doing all the right things.
> 
> ...


Misdirection to you is asking before assuming whether Bob was intending to compare women to dogs. Of course, the fact that I find that disturbing most likely means I'm a psycho feminist. Thank goodness I don't believe that either.

I'm not standing out in a storm in some very limited, united front with brighteyes (she just happens to sometimes agree with me). I'm offering my perspective. I understand it will be scrutinized by members. This is fine. I truly feel I am right, Deejo, or I wouldn't offer it at all.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*



AFEH said:


> Don’t be silly, I haven't a clue what Joe's wife's thoughts are. Not a clue.


Then why is there only one solution? Not saying that you're wrong, but just as penicillin won't treat a broken leg, why is deprioritisation a panacea?


> But if he keeps doing the same things he's going to keep getting the same results.


Now here you really are absolutely right. Doing nothing isn't an option, doing what he has done isn't an option - he definitely needs to do something else. All I'm wondering is why is there only one club in the golf bag?



> His wife is already into MASSIVELY HABITUAL BEHAVIOUR. And that behaviour is NO SEX. Sounds to me like she’s addicted to NO SEX. And because of that she doesn’t give a fig about keeping him by her side.


I think she does - I think more than wanting to keep him there, she expects him to be there, but without a sex life. 



> The man has needs and she sure isn’t satisfying them!
> 
> What happens next?


His needs aren't her needs, and vice versa... Problem, that, innit? What happnes next? Nothing good.



Deejo said:


> My issue is that you frame the dissolution of the relationship as a loss ... It's Joes to win or lose if he doesn't get it 'right'.
> 
> I just don't see it that way.
> 
> ...


Exactly. He may have to destroy the village to save the village. Joe needs to be totally aware that if he follows your plan he is _deciding_ and _stating_ that *this is the hill he is prepared to die on*. Because if he isn't, it ain't going to work.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*

Isn't Joe coming here with the goal of resolution of the marriage? Why would framing the dissolution of the relationship as a loss not be logical given Joe's personal goals?


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*



Therealbrighteyes said:


> Exactly.
> Trenton doesn't know anything about pregnancy and giving birth and breast feeding and having three children and hormones and emotions and what not. Nope. Let's discount her opinion and listen to men, in the Ladies forum. The same men who discount her in the Mens forum.


With all due respect I'm not here to take sides in a p*ssing contest. No-one here has a monopoly on the truth. 

At the moment, Joe's golf bag has one club in it, and he's being offered one more. I think he needs more options, from _everyone_ here.

I don't think that the OP's purpose is served by this descending into a men versus women brawl.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*



Sawney Beane said:


> With all due respect I'm not here to take sides in a p*ssing contest. No-one here has a monopoly on the truth.
> 
> At the moment, Joe's golf bag has one club in it, and he's being offered one more. I think he needs more options, from _everyone_ here.
> 
> I don't think that the OP's purpose is served by this descending into a men versus women brawl.


I completely agree. Which is why it would be nice if I could have an opinion and offer suggestions and perceptions of my own without having to worry if I'm going to be told I'm intriguing, in a storm, or have to justify myself to the majority of the posters since a certain philosophy seems to be the only philosophy that could offer a possible solution.

If the goal is to help Joe then let's help Joe. For that, Joe really needs to be honest and answer some questions. I need to know more than his wife is happy with the love for her child and hasn't wanted to have sex since becoming pregnant.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*



Sawney Beane said:


> With all due respect I'm not here to take sides in a p*ssing contest. No-one here has a monopoly on the truth.
> 
> At the moment, Joe's golf bag has one club in it, and he's being offered one more. I think he needs more options, from _everyone_ here.
> 
> I don't think that the OP's purpose is served by this descending into a men versus women brawl.


No but understanding how women feel after childbirth can give him some perspective. The men here giving him advice have never been pregnant or given birth. It changes you, it just does.
I was high drive with my first, like every day kind of thing. With my second I didn't want sex during or after our son was born for nearly a year. Was it because I thought "I have him right where I want him?" No! I literally had no desire. It came back in droves after that year. Hormones got in check and yeah, life returned to normal. If at any point he did what the men here suggested, I would be gone. That is what Trenton was pointing out.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*



Therealbrighteyes said:


> No but understanding how women feel after childbirth can give him some perspective. The men here giving him advice have never been pregnant or given birth. It changes you, it just does.
> I was high drive with my first, like every day kind of thing. With my second I didn't want sex during or after our son was born for nearly a year. Was it because I thought "I have him right where I want him?" No! I literally had no desire. It came back in droves after that year. Hormones got in check and yeah, life returned to normal. If at any point he did what the men here suggested, I would be gone. That is what Trenton was pointing out.


All I am trying to point out is that this is not an either / or situation.

It is not that Trenton is right and the men are wrong, or vice versa. 

ALL of the opinions, guidance, suggestions and information need to be brought in, considered and weighed BEFORE acting. 

I'm not saying Joe _will _only get one go at this, but he needs to act like that's the case. He needs to act, but it has to be right, not just "right now".


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*



Sawney Beane said:


> All I am trying to point out is that this is not an either / or situation.
> 
> It is not that Trenton is right and the men are wrong, or vice versa.
> 
> ...


Agreed.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*

Joe ~

I was going back and trying to remember some of what was going through my mind, especially after having my first baby.

There were a couple of things my H and I had to really work through together.

One was that I was very afraid of getting pregnant again so soon, and I really wanted to breastfeed, so we had some limited birth control options. You need to find out how your wife feels about this. I know that you said there was a scrip for birth control pills (you might want to evaluate whether that's the best option actually) waiting for her for whenever at the pharmacy. But, I'm just saying this was something of a fear for me.

As well, I was something of a wimp and was really scared about how it might feel afterward - that it would hurt. And, of course, it did hurt because I had that internal tear with stitches, and it took months for the swelling to subside.

My H was great, though. Really understanding - gentle. We did a lot of non-intercourse things, and a lot of bonding in other ways.

Those are just a few other things to think about from her perspective. There can be a lot of little fears and concerns like that for a woman after pregnancy and they can really start to add up in a person's mind. I also know that many women are concerned about their body image afterward and if your libido is already on the floor from hormonal imbalance, intimacy can seem a daunting prospect at times.

Best wishes.


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*

I noticed that by starting this second thread, I've unintentionally derailed my previous thread, which was going well and is where people will find more details about our relationship. Could we merge threads or abandon this one? 

Once again, all the feedback has been helpful. In taking it all in, I've been more assertive about my needs (not just sexual needs) and have remembered to keep an open ear and be empathic. 

Thanks for sharing Enchantment. She is afraid of getting pregnant, because it was a tough pregnancy and she had a c section. She also disclosed a fear that her scar from the c section would open up. Of course, I also think there were pre-existing issues on our marriage that contribute as well. Thanks for the recommendation of no more mr nice guy btw.

I think sex will take time. I have seen a willingness from her to try more things. The willingness to try is just as important to me as the sex itself. We've made out and we've been feeling each other up. I think the talks about her needing to remember her other roles (wife, friend, daughter, etc) being good for her, the marriage, and I have been helpful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Thread has been merged as requested.

Some of the postings may appear a bit disjointed as a result.


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Thank you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*

Enchantment,
Again and again what comes across in your posts is commitment and teamwork. 

As for all the folks suggesting I only advocate one approach - I would like to repeat that my approach is actually multi-faceted and is predicated on this concept: "Use the mildest form of communication necessary to get your point across". This means you go through a sequence something like this:
1. It is really important to me that "....."
2. I know we talked about this recently, but I notice nothing has changed, this really causes me to feel (some version of bad) and I need to know you understand that. Do you understand how much this bothers me?
3. At risk of being tiresome - this is really not ok. So at this point you need to explain to me WHY you are doing this and WHY you think it is ok.
4. I am not agreeable to continuing to pour my blood, sweat and tears into this marriage given that my needs/wants/desires just don't seem that important to you. 
5. Begin deprioritization

I honestly feel that deprioritization is extreme. And it is absolutely necessary in many cases. I use it sparingly. If I was not able to use deprioritization I honestly think my emotionally stronger W would have over powered me by now. BTW: I absolutely love my W. Completely crazy about her. Plan to spend my last breath with her by my side. STILL - this one thing gets her attention like no other. 

If someone else has a better approach I am all ears. 

And one last thing. If "someone" is REALLY treating me badly - it confuses them when my words (conversations whining about how I dislike what they are doing) and my actions - being very loving and supportive - are completely at odds. Generally they will put the weight on my actions. And ignore my words. Go read Munchies posts - she starved her H of sex for a decade plus and then went into frantic sexual repair mode when he had an affair. 







Enchantment said:


> Joe ~
> 
> I was going back and trying to remember some of what was going through my mind, especially after having my first baby.
> 
> ...


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*



Therealbrighteyes said:


> I don't think anybody is suggesting that either of you two are. I CAN however see it from her perspective although I was not in that position. She is a new mother who didn't want sex during pregnancy and 9 months after. It is fairly normal to not want sex with a baby. You guys are always talking biology, right? What female in the animal kingdom wants sex after she is pregnant and shortly after giving birth? It is a biological response to hormones and hard wired to not want to get pregnant again as her body/resources cannot support it.
> I don't think Joe's wife is that abnormal. I think throwing around terms like disrespect and destablizing the relationship are dangerous things.


But biology does not excuse behavior. It does not when a man wants to cheat to spread his seed, and it should nto when a woman, once pregnant, decides to demote her husband to paycheck and extra set of hands. Biology can explain, but it does not excuse.




> **Wanted to add that you asked him what her responsibility is and Joe answered "the baby". His response was very telling to me. It smacked of "just the baby" as if she "only" has a 9 month old to look after. It sounded like HE marginalized what she was doing and yeah, I didn't feel sexy reading it. If I read it wrong than apologizes in advance. If Joe does think that taking care of a 9 month old is easy, then he needs a reality check. I nearly pulled my hair out as a SAHM and I went back to work to get a break**


So I will give you my reading based on being on the other side of this equation. I read "just the baby" to mean everything about the baby - every task was focused on the baby, every conversation was about the baby, activities were determined based on the mood of the baby, sleep was obtained around the baby's schedule. This did not mean that taking care of the baby was easy. Rather, the baby is the center of the universe and all activity is based on how it may potentially impact the baby and the mother.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

*Re: Ladies with babies, please answer*



JoeHenderson said:


> I noticed that by starting this second thread, I've unintentionally derailed my previous thread, which was going well and is where people will find more details about our relationship. Could we merge threads or abandon this one?
> 
> Once again, all the feedback has been helpful. In taking it all in, I've been more assertive about my needs (not just sexual needs) and have remembered to keep an open ear and be empathic.
> 
> ...


Joe ~

I am proud of you for being willing to step up and take action to make yourself, your marriage, and your life better. Keep it up.

Your wife's willingness to try and open up more is really great and I am very happy to see that. 

Best wishes.


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

I don't believe that taking care of a 9 month old is easy, which is why I help as much as I can. I feed him and bathe him straight from work and am up with him at least 50% of the time during the night. Additionally, I take the baby most of the morning so the W can sleep in. Likewise, she takes him back in the afternoon so I can take a nap. What I meant by the comment WSu that she is having difficulty acknowledging her other roles. I am happy to say though that she is making progress.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> I don't believe that taking care of a 9 month old is easy, which is why I help as much as I can. I feed him and bathe him straight from work and am up with him at least 50% of the time during the night. Additionally, I take the baby most of the morning so the W can sleep in. Likewise, she takes him back in the afternoon so I can take a nap. What I meant by the comment WSu that she is having difficulty acknowledging her other roles. I am happy to say though that she is making progress.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But she only has the baby to deal with. Sure it is work but she is not working a job, she gets plenty of help from you and she is not raising other children either and is not meeting her husbands needs. No other responsibilities. Yet other woman do these things and take care of the baby too.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

1st child is a piece of cake
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hubby01 (Jul 5, 2011)

Just thought I'd chime back in for Joe.

More than anything YOU need to be willing to make a stand about what you consider appropriate, and enforce that boundary. 

Whilst it would "appear" from the outside I'm allowing myself to be a sperm donor getting nothing from the relationship, my ducks are in a row and another baby or not the boundary will be enforced when she reaches the line.

I can't speak for Joe's wife but my wife has told me 100 times my desire for sex, with her, is completely selfish and she has no regard for my wishes. She's offered 1000 different excuses and the 1st 50 I took on board, now I just act with complete indifference when she flatly refuses. More often I'll just say "just say no, don't bullshoit me with an excuse" In near enough to three years she has not once offered me something other than vanilla sex and it's more a case of "ok, if we have to", it's never a "come get me tiger"

Why should I provide any more emotional support to the marriage than her?


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Joe, you derailed yourself greatly with the question about how long a woman should wait for sex after having a baby.

Your problem is not a sexual problem. It is a definitional problem. A marriage can only function if the husband does specific actions to meet his wife's emotional needs and the wife does specific actions to meet the husbands emotional needs.

A marriage is dysfunctional when one partner both refuses to meet the other's needs and even acknowledge that the other person's emotional needs are important.

Even if your wife cannot perform sexually at the moment, there are many things (non sexual) she could say or do to make you understand that you are loved and your needs matter to her. She is not doing this. She is just deflecting things in such a way that you question your own thoughts and desires (gaslighting).


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Hubby01 said:


> Just thought I'd chime back in for Joe.
> 
> More than anything YOU need to be willing to make a stand about what you consider appropriate, and enforce that boundary.
> 
> ...


Your wife ignores your #1 emotional need. How does meeting your #1 emotional need equate to selfishness? So she has you trained now I guess. I have no idea why you would meet any of her needs any more.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

I just want to reiterate here that I think when you divide yourself into two completely separate camps...woman's needs vs. man's needs there will not be a permanent solution. You destabilize to create stability? You withhold to get what you want? You become dishonest but expect honesty?

This works both ways. The only way for two to become more competent in fulfilling one another's needs is to feel invested in the relationship and in one another.

So it's easier said than done. I'm not claiming that it is easy. I think destabilization and withholding are obviously easier but their fix is temporary and will only lead to bigger blowouts and bigger resentments.

If your goal is to feel more one with your wife while being able to raise your family together then you need to make this clear. You need to be honest with your wife and sincere. Quarreling over the average woman or average man will only make the other feel like less than. Playing games to try and get what you want and believing that your wife doesn't really know what she wants is an injustice to her intelligence.

So first you need to figure out exactly how she feels. Like I said before, if she truly loves you but sees her duty as a Mom as what has to come first for your family together as of right now, then you have to present to her that you feel left out and that you feel the family falling apart rather than being held together.

Destabilization and finding yourself should be left for when you have decided you are willing to leave the relationship and don't want to be with your wife if she continues to deny how you feel and discount it as unimportant. When your goal shifts from unification to separation, that's when you should follow the majority of the advice found in this thread. 

Until then, focus on clearly stating how you feel, explaining your resentments and dreams for your family and trying to understand exactly why your wife feels the way she does.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

My advice has nothing to do with destabilization.
The relationship is already unstable since his wife is not participating in the marriage and is of the mind that when a husband has needs he is being selfish.

I advocate stabilizing the relationship by creating it as a marriage between a man and a woman.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Hicks said:


> My advice has nothing to do with destabilization.
> The relationship is already unstable since his wife is not participating in the marriage and is of the mind that when a husband has needs he is being selfish.
> 
> I advocate stabilizing the relationship by creating it as a marriage between a man and a woman.


While I agree with your approach, I would note that any change results in a destabilization of the marriage. Losing a job, having a kid, changing how you act, all will shake the marriage a bit. I don't think it is realistic to pretend that changing the dynamic between Joe and his wife won't destabilize the marriage in some way, at least at first.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Trenton said:


> I just want to reiterate here that I think when you divide yourself into two completely separate camps...woman's needs vs. man's needs there will not be a permanent solution. You destabilize to create stability? You withhold to get what you want? You become dishonest but expect honesty?
> 
> This works both ways. The only way for two to become more competent in fulfilling one another's needs is to feel invested in the relationship and in one another. .


That's what I was trying to say in an earlier post. You state the case much better. I don't think that relationships any relationship will work if it is based upon one side winning while the other loses. The discussion seems to distill down to men have a rather consistent and strong drive for sex that is not greatly effected by most life transitions and women have a fluctuating sex drive greatly effected by life transitions. . Either women adjust to a more male like consistent, strong drive for sex and ignore the natural fluctuation that is their biology or men adjust to the female waxing and waining sex drive and ignore the natural constancy of their biology. One or the other, any concessions to the aposing camps view of the world is viewed as a loss and a win for the other side. 

No one wins in hard line win or lose approach to solving the conflict born out of the reality of life for men and women in longterm relationships. Consessions and understanding is needed from both sides. I like the way MEM relates to his wife through her transitions and she to him. I don't agree with some of his advice. I don't pay too much attention to what he says but what he does and I think his relationship with his wife exemplifies a largely sucessful amalgamation of how a long term marriage that has had to wheather the the effects of biology on men and women. 

That success is based on maturity, commitment, love and understanding a very difficult state to reach. Women need to understand that sex for a man in love with his chosen life partner is not a decent into pleasure seeking debaucery. Men need to understand that the effect on women's behavior of natural biologic rhythms is not a sign of lack of love nor an effort to control . Men don't have menstral cycles , childbirth, breast feeding, an infants' dependence on mother for the first months of life. Women need to understand the forces that testosterone has on their mind and body. Not many women know what that feels like they never feel its irresistible influence. I can't imagine how it feels, I often wonder even now why my husband seems to have an urgency that effects his emotions and moods. 

Just an example - my husband told me recently that he had a surge of desire for me after the birth of our kids because he loved me and the baby so much. He wanted to celebrate and show his love and happiness with me by making love. Just imagine his disappointment at my less than enthusiastic response. Had I understood why he was so egger, I would never have acted the way I did. 

He said that if he understood that my shying away was not a sign that I no longer loved him and viewed him as an outsider now that he fathered a child with me. We were both so wrong. If we understood, I would have celebrated with him by making him feel loved and appreciated - there are more ways to make love than long session with penetration that I was not up to so soon. He on the other hand said that would not have become distant and resistant to helping but would have stepped up his effort to be loving and patient with me. 

I think the only way to bridge the gap is knowledge acceptance and a MEM & Mrs MEM-like approach. It may seem an impossible task now but the epidemic of marital crisis cries our for a drastic change in sex education. Instead of taking a mechanistic approach to sex education an evidenced-based sociological and biological course in human relationships should be designed. 

Just sayin'
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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