# BS with long time update



## StillSearching

Hello I was here circa 2002. I Signed up and told my story.
My D-Day is 1/10/02. My wife had an affair with a co-worker. I found out from marks he left on her.
Its been a hard fought 15 years. I had many people here then tell me my story was fake. It drove me away from this site.
I'm still with my wife. I have 3 kids all in college now. 

I came back to read through some stories and try help if I could.
If I could choose to do it over again, I would not. I would advise any BS not to reconcile. Even now I do not have a real marriage. Trust...well you never get that back. The pain fades.
I have a good relationship with my wife but I am sure I would be a lot happier had I left in 2002. 
I had hopes things would be like they were. I was blinded by love. 
So makes your choices wisely. Listen to BSs here. Get a lawyer. Get a D. Get on with your life. Be happy.


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## dawnabon

I'm new to this group but I've been a member at SI since 2010. I tried and tried, through multiple indiscretions on his part. And after all that, he decides he doesn't know what he wants. I would also advise new BS to run like your ass is on fire. 

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## Yeswecan

Sorry to hear since 2002 the marriage was never right again for you. What are your plans for the future? Continue on with the marriage after the kids have graduated college?


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## TDSC60

You sir have valuable life experience to pass on.

I have no doubt that you can be helpful to others simply by telling the story of how you got to where you are now and what you have learned over the years as a result of the journey.


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## StillSearching

Yeswecan said:


> Sorry to hear since 2002 the marriage was never right again for you. What are your plans for the future? Continue on with the marriage after the kids have graduated college?


Any BS who thinks it will right again for them is foolish. I was foolish. I thought my marriage was different than all the others. 
Yes I will continue still. Our business is doing well and a D now....well I don't see it. 
I find happiness in small things that I do for myself.


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## StillSearching

TDSC60 said:


> You sir have valuable life experience to pass on.
> 
> I have no doubt that you can be helpful to others simply by telling the story of how you got to where you are now and what you have learned over the years as a result of the journey.


Oh the journey I've had....


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## Yeswecan

StillSearching said:


> Any BS who thinks it will right again for them is foolish. I was foolish. I thought my marriage was different than all the others.
> Yes I will continue still. Our business is doing well and a D now....well I don't see it.
> I find happiness in small things that I do for myself.


If you don't mind me asking, does your W know you feel this way?


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## adegirl2016

StillSearching said:


> Oh the journey I've had....



Yes... more info please. I am a BS still in limbo. Would love some insight.
Did she do it again?
How was she during R?
Did you go to counseling?


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## Satya

Would you mind sharing the specifics of what you have learned since 2002, of the things you would have done differently? 

Some members might benefit from your thoughts on specifics, regarding challenges about finances, children, cohabitation, etc.


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## StillSearching

Yeswecan said:


> If you don't mind me asking, does your W know you feel this way?


 I'm here to answer all questions.
Not fully. She knows the damage she's done. She NEVER came fully clean. Never will, I guess. 
I needed details I never got. She said it was over. Got a confession but the affair continued behind my back. We were seeing a MC and he said he wanted to meet with her alone for a few more months.
She never when back to him and used that time to meet OM while I stayed home with small children.
I was at home feeling great about progress.


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## GusPolinski

Was OM married? If so, was the affair exposed to his wife?

How long after D-Day did she continue to work with OM?

Is she still employed at the same place?

Were any of your children conceived around the time of the affair?


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## StillSearching

adegirl2016 said:


> Yes... more info please. I am a BS still in limbo. Would love some insight.
> Did she do it again?
> How was she during R?
> Did you go to counseling?



Did she do it again? yes 3 different times. Different men. And I was a hawk watching.
How was she during R? She was very willing and upbeat.
Did you go to counseling? Yes. Three times. Three different MCs.


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## GusPolinski

StillSearching said:


> Did she do it again? yes 3 different times. Different men. And I was a hawk watching.
> How was she during R? She was very willing and upbeat.
> Did you go to counseling? Yes. Three times. Three different MCs.


HOLY. CRAP.

Is divorce illegal where you live?


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## StillSearching

GusPolinski said:


> Was OM married? If so, was the affair exposed to his wife?
> 
> How long after D-Day did she continue to work with OM?
> 
> Is she still employed at the same place?
> 
> Were any of your children conceived around the time of the affair?


How long after D-Day did she continue to work with OM? For a year. I was not aware of his identity at the time. She kept meeting him. 

Is she still employed at the same place? No. I made her quit. We started a business together.

Were any of your children conceived around the time of the affair? No.

OM was single.


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## StillSearching

GusPolinski said:


> HOLY. CRAP.
> 
> Is divorce illegal where you live?


I wanted to live with my children. Raise them. They are doing very well. 
Now keep in mind there are many reasons I told myself it is worth staying. 
A lot of BSs might do so as well.


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## GTdad

StillSearching said:


> I wanted to live with my children. Raise them. They are doing very well.


People will debate the wisdom of staying for the kids, but it's a very personal choice I respect even when I may disagree.

But they're in college now, so it may be time to set yourself free. Concern about shaking up the status quo is a much lousier reason to stay than for the kids by just about any measure.


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## SuperConfusedHusband

StillSearching said:


> Hello I was here circa 2002. I Signed up and told my story.
> My D-Day is 1/10/02. My wife had an affair with a co-worker. I found out from marks he left on her.
> Its been a hard fought 15 years. I had many people here then tell me my story was fake. It drove me away from this site.
> I'm still with my wife. I have 3 kids all in college now.
> 
> I came back to read through some stories and try help if I could.
> If I could choose to do it over again, I would not. I would advise any BS not to reconcile. Even now I do not have a real marriage. Trust...well you never get that back. The pain fades.
> I have a good relationship with my wife but I am sure I would be a lot happier had I left in 2002.
> I had hopes things would be like they were. I was blinded by love.
> So makes your choices wisely. Listen to BSs here. Get a lawyer. Get a D. Get on with your life. Be happy.


This is a tough one! Have she cheated on you other times?
I had some regrets like you have about "if I had to do it all over again I wouldnt", but realized that maybe this is as good as it gets. And any other way I wuold have been less happy than I'm now.


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## stixx

In your case she never came clean and kept the affair going. So of course it's not going to be fixable she has no remorse and isn't stopping.

Other times they are remorseful and they quit the affair and bend over backwards to make it right for the betrayed spouse that's a different situation entirely than yours is or was.


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## GusPolinski

I don't see any realistic way for you to believe that she's not _still_ cheating.

I can't see staying in a marriage like this, but I'll play ball from the perspective that the potential financial fallout caused by divorce would be significant enough to keep me from filing:

I'd kick her out of the bedroom and tell her that she's free to sleep around with whoever she wants and whenever she wants, just so long as it doesn't happen under my roof.

And then I'd never touch her again.


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## GusPolinski

GTdad said:


> People will debate the wisdom of staying for the kids, but it's a very personal choice I respect even when I may disagree.
> 
> *But they're in college now, so it may be time to set yourself free.* Concern about shaking up the status quo is a much lousier reason to stay than for the kids by just about any measure.


Word.


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## SuperConfusedHusband

stixx said:


> Other times they are remorseful and they quit the affair and bend over backwards to make it right for the betrayed spouse that's a different situation entirely than yours is or was.


Not this lady...she did it other times. When she did it the other times, did you confront her? What did she say?


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## Grapes

what is keeping you there now? Especially now that empty nesting is right around the corner.


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## NoChoice

OP,
Not to in any way belittle your pain and the he!! you've been through but in fairness to others trying to R, yours was not a true R. You stayed for the children, not for yourself. She was not nor has she ever become truly remorseful therefore yours is the quintessential rugsweept R. I applaud your dedication to your children but now that they are gone how will you live with her? If you are bound financially it is a true rock and hard place that you find yourself sandwiched between.


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## adegirl2016

Do you have a link to your original thread?

WOW! So .... when did you find out that she continued the affair? Was it during R or after you thought everything was okay?

I am 99.9 percent sure my husbands affair is over, BUT I am 95 percent sure he will do it again, even though most of the time, he is happy and upbeat about R. 

more info!!!!


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## MyRevelation

StillSearching, I'll give you major props for being honest with yourself. It may not have been the choice others would make, and it doesn't appear it would be the choice you would make now in hindsight, but things change, we grow older, we acquire assets, family dynamics change and your reasons for staying now are likely completely different from the reasons you stayed originally, but you are being honest with yourself (and us) about your reasons then, which you may now regret, and your reasons now.

We see so many other BH's that choose R and then live a life of self-deception ... many of them are the most ardent supporters of R on these forums. It is pathetic watching them try to convince others to R, when they're really only trying to convince themselves that they did the right thing.

However, a BH CAN find happiness from within over any number of things, as long as they are honest with themselves, and NOT dependent on their WW's meeting their expectations of what you once thought you had. The hardest part for me was making peace with myself and accepting the consequences of my own poor choices. Now, I'm not excusing my W's behavior by accepting any blame for her choice, but I had ample evidence prior to M to see the red flags waving that I ignored due to being "in love" that could have allowed me to avoid the whole mess altogether ... THAT'S ON ME, and was part of me being honest enough with myself to acknowledge my mistakes and move forward from them.

I am painfully aware that I'm very capable of making major life screw ups ... now I focus on not making the same one's over again.


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## StillSearching

Grapes said:


> what is keeping you there now? Especially now that empty nesting is right around the corner.


A shared business that is doing very well.


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## StillSearching

adegirl2016 said:


> Do you have a link to your original thread?
> 
> WOW! So .... when did you find out that she continued the affair? Was it during R or after you thought everything was okay?
> 
> I am 99.9 percent sure my husbands affair is over, BUT I am 95 percent sure he will do it again, even though most of the time, he is happy and upbeat about R.
> 
> more info!!!!


I don't remember my username from that time.
I found out when it slipped out of her mouth one night as if she had told me already. See lies are always forgotten by the teller and never by the listener.
I didn't make a stink out of it. I wanted more details. I got them later. but not all of them.
So i found out who it was and how long it lasted in about 2010.
Remember I thought it was long over in Jan. 2002.


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## StillSearching

MyRevelation said:


> StillSearching, I'll give you major props for being honest with yourself. It may not have been the choice others would make, and it doesn't appear it would be the choice you would make now in hindsight, but things change, we grow older, we acquire assets, family dynamics change and your reasons for staying now are likely completely different from the reasons you stayed originally, but you are being honest with yourself (and us) about your reasons then, which you may now regret, and your reasons now.
> 
> We see so many other BH's that choose R and then live a life of self-deception ... many of them are the most ardent supporters of R on these forums. It is pathetic watching them try to convince others to R, when they're really only trying to convince themselves that they did the right thing.
> 
> However, a BH CAN find happiness from within over any number of things, as long as they are honest with themselves, and NOT dependent on their WW's meeting their expectations of what you once thought you had. The hardest part for me was making peace with myself and accepting the consequences of my own poor choices. Now, I'm not excusing my W's behavior by accepting any blame for her choice, but I had ample evidence prior to M to see the red flags waving that I ignored due to being "in love" that could have allowed me to avoid the whole mess altogether ... THAT'S ON ME, and was part of me being honest enough with myself to acknowledge my mistakes and move forward from them.
> 
> I am painfully aware that I'm very capable of making major life screw ups ... now I focus on not making the same one's over again.


You nailed it better than I could have said it. Props.
Don't not reconcile.
Or you may be here in 15 years from now looking to help someone to release you from your own demons as well.


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## StillSearching

I don't want to stir to much up but there are differences between a BH and BW. I not sure I'd give the same advice to a BW, as my experiences are much different than she would have, but 
I'll do my best to answer what I can, be it through my BH filter.


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## barbados

OP


Were you and your WW still having sex while she was cheating ?


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## MyRevelation

StillSearching said:


> I don't want to stir to much up but there are differences between a BH and BW. I not sure I'd give the same advice to a BW, as my experiences are much different than she would have, but
> I'll do my best to answer what I can, be it through my BH filter.


There are many who will argue there are no differences between WW's and WH's ... therefore, BH's and BW's should be advised in the same manner ... to which I call BS from the mountaintop. I don't read or respond to BW threads ... I simply have no point of reference from which to advise ... so I just stay away from them altogether. With that said, as a BH, my experience shows that there are very few BH/WW scenarios when the best advise ins't to D immediately and move on. There are just very few WW's worth the time, pain and risk of attempting R with them.


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## harrybrown

So sorry to hear. Do you even have a marriage now? How do you know she is not cheating with several today?

Do the kids know? Why not tell them and her family? 

Would she sign over the business to you? Why does she stay and keep cheating? time to get a post nup.

Did she ever take a polygraph? Did she get tested for stds? why does she not respect you? How would she feel if you had four or five affairs?


I can't see staying with someone that keeps stabbing you in the back. How do you know she is not stealing from the business?

So sorry, hope you find a way to have her give you the business and then leave. Does she have any idea that she is killing your love for her?


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## Lostinthought61

Search i am curious, 

Has she demonstrated actual remorsefulness? 
did she do any heavy lifting ? 
does she love you? 
did she tell you why? 
Did you expose her to everyone?

i will tell you if you have never told the children they should absolutely know what their mother did, and it would be better if it came from her mouth


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## jb02157

StillSearching said:


> I wanted to live with my children. Raise them. They are doing very well.
> Now keep in mind there are many reasons I told myself it is worth staying.
> A lot of BSs might do so as well.


That's basically my reason for staying in a bad marriage. There's been no infidelity but at this point I'm not sure I'd feel different if there was.


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## StillSearching

barbados said:


> OP
> 
> 
> Were you and your WW still having sex while she was cheating ?


YES, very good and often sex.


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## Yeswecan

StillSearching said:


> I'm here to answer all questions.
> Not fully. She knows the damage she's done. She NEVER came fully clean. Never will, I guess.
> I needed details I never got. She said it was over. Got a confession but the affair continued behind my back. We were seeing a MC and he said he wanted to meet with her alone for a few more months.
> She never when back to him and used that time to meet OM while I stayed home with small children.
> I was at home feeling great about progress.


Your W treated you poorly at best. It is understandable your feelings. I'm guessing your W really does not understand what she had done.


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## StillSearching

Lostinthought61 said:


> Search i am curious,
> 
> Has she demonstrated actual remorsefulness?
> did she do any heavy lifting ?
> does she love you?
> did she tell you why?
> Did you expose her to everyone?
> 
> i will tell you if you have never told the children they should absolutely know what their mother did, and it would be better if it came from her mouth


Has she demonstrated actual remorsefulness? well thats a tough one. Good enough for me to believe she was not going to do it again. but didn't last. Does one really understand another's true intent?

did she do any heavy lifting ? not sure what that means? I think so.

does she love you? She says she does. To me love is a unblemished marriage.

did she tell you why? Yes she said I wasn't giving her the attention she needed. Said it could have been any guy. I don't believe that. Workplace convenience made it more likely.

Did you expose her to everyone? YES! This made me tolerate the pain. Her mother loved me a lot and told me she was sorry. Didn't mean anything to me tho.

i will tell you if you have never told the children they should absolutely know what their mother did, and it would be better if it came from her mouth..... They know what she did. She had to tell them why I was crying so much. 
So i guess she had to have some remorse.


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## StillSearching

Yeswecan said:


> Your W treated you poorly at best. It is understandable your feelings. I'm guessing your W really does not understand what she had done.


I don't believe any WW understands what they truly do. I mean that. 

That's why BH and BW are also quite different.


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## StillSearching

jb02157 said:


> That's basically my reason for staying in a bad marriage. There's been no infidelity but at this point I'm not sure I'd feel different if there was.


Here's a little solace from a man that said things like. "I'd never stay with a woman that cheated" and "She would never ever cheat on me"
You WOULD feel different if she gave away what she brought in, even though shes just holding to herself right now.
Big difference.


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## StillSearching

MyRevelation said:


> There are many who will argue there are no differences between WW's and WH's ... therefore, BH's and BW's should be advised in the same manner ... to which I call BS from the mountaintop. I don't read or respond to BW threads ... I simply have no point of reference from which to advise ... so I just stay away from them altogether. With that said, as a BH, my experience shows that there are very few BH/WW scenarios when the best advise ins't to D immediately and move on. There are just very few WW's worth the time, pain and risk of attempting R with them.


There's a huge difference. I feel the same as you.
"I don't read or respond to BW threads ... I simply have no point of reference from which to advise ... so I just stay away from them altogether." TRUE.
There are NO scenarios worth staying.
Men are not women, women are not men. 
Anyone here who has dealt with a WW as long as I have will concur.


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## StillSearching

harrybrown said:


> So sorry to hear. Do you even have a marriage now? Not really as you think of one
> How do you know she is not cheating with several today? I dont. but she doesn't hold the value she had at 27.
> 
> Do the kids know? YES
> Why not tell them and her family? She did that.
> 
> Would she sign over the business to you? NO
> Why does she stay and keep cheating? How do I know? I guess she stays because she loves me. I'd say more but I have personal beliefs that might offend others.
> time to get a post nup. . I'm 53 she's 44 we get along. I get the sex I want.
> 
> Did she ever take a polygraph? NO. Said she would. I never pushed it. Wished I had. Wasn't so easy in 2002.
> Did she get tested for stds? YES I made her. She complied.
> why does she not respect you? I'm sure I've earned her respect. I don't think affairs are about respect. I'm plenty man enough if thats what you're getting at.
> How would she feel if you had four or five affairs? She tells me to go and do it now. LOL
> 
> 
> I can't see staying with someone that keeps stabbing you in the back. I said that too.
> How do you know she is not stealing from the business? I run it. Anyone can steal from you I guess. How does anyone know for sure?
> 
> So sorry, hope you find a way to have her give you the business and then leave. Does she have any idea that she is killing your love for her? She killed it in 2002. It's a different kinda love now. Not really a marriage love like you think that to be.


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## 225985

GusPolinski said:


> I don't see any realistic way for you to believe that she's not _still_ cheating.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't see staying in a marriage like this, but I'll play ball from the perspective that the potential financial fallout caused by divorce would be significant enough to keep me from filing:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd kick her out of the bedroom and tell her that she's free to sleep around with whoever she wants and whenever she wants, just so long as it doesn't happen under my roof.
> 
> 
> 
> And then I'd never touch her again.




Why would he kick her out now? He accepted her cheating.

He already did tell her she is free to shop around when he didn't leave after the second cheating (that he knows of).


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## sokillme

StillSearching said:


> Hello I was here circa 2002. I Signed up and told my story.
> My D-Day is 1/10/02. My wife had an affair with a co-worker. I found out from marks he left on her.
> Its been a hard fought 15 years. I had many people here then tell me my story was fake. It drove me away from this site.
> I'm still with my wife. I have 3 kids all in college now.
> 
> I came back to read through some stories and try help if I could.
> If I could choose to do it over again, I would not. I would advise any BS not to reconcile. Even now I do not have a real marriage. Trust...well you never get that back. The pain fades.
> I have a good relationship with my wife but I am sure I would be a lot happier had I left in 2002.
> I had hopes things would be like they were. I was blinded by love.
> So makes your choices wisely. Listen to BSs here. Get a lawyer. Get a D. Get on with your life. Be happy.


So you're the reason the user Quality and others hate me. (that is a joke for people who read on her a lot.) People like you are why I post on here. 

Anyway though after reading this and other posts I think after your spouse cheats on you the second time even the most ardent R people (and I am sure there are some on here) would say you only have yourself to blame. The time for blaming your WS is over. Until you fix with is broken in you you will never have the life you want. Lets be honest what it all comes down to is you are afraid. That's the first step.

You are codependent. You are the host to her parasite. The answer to everyone who say, "well I love them" should be who cares! Love doesn't give you the right to let someone abuse you continually. You have a duty and an honor to stick up and protect yourself. 

I posted about this book in another one of my post if you look it up it also has an article about your responsibility to your kids. I hope you are correct when you say your kids are healthy because a lot of times BS think they are doing right by staying but it leads to a whole host of problems in the adult kids lives. First of all most kids are perceptive enough to know something is wrong and eventually figure it out. The kids feel responsible and guilty because the one spouse stayed for them. The kids are made to live with a parent who is a narcissist and another parent who is beat down by a narcissist. This is what happened to me with a part of my childhood with my Mom and stepfather. There is no safe place to go to. At least if one parent gets away there is one safe parent that can be a refuge. It was not healthy for your kids to see their father crying in his room.

Staying for the kids is a terrible idea a lot of the time if not most.


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## StillSearching

SuperConfusedHusband said:


> Not this lady...she did it other times. When she did it the other times, did you confront her? What did she say?


Yes. Confessed after presented with evidence. Went to MC. 
Said she was sorry. 
Wasn't going to trash my kids future and leave. That was my thought process.


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## sokillme

stixx said:


> In your case she never came clean and kept the affair going. So of course it's not going to be fixable she has no remorse and isn't stopping.
> 
> Other times they are remorseful and they quit the affair and bend over backwards to make it right for the betrayed spouse that's a different situation entirely than yours is or was.


Yeah I can point to about 10 on here and other sites. Sites that get new posts like OP's situation day after day. Though granted it's not empirical I think the odds are not really good. From reading on here in other boards most people eventually get divorced or end up like OP.


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## sokillme

adegirl2016 said:


> Do you have a link to your original thread?
> 
> WOW! So .... when did you find out that she continued the affair? Was it during R or after you thought everything was okay?
> 
> I am 99.9 percent sure my husbands affair is over, BUT I am 95 percent sure he will do it again, even though most of the time, he is happy and upbeat about R.
> 
> more info!!!!


Please move on. Reading your story, it would be such a waste if you stayed. You are needed out there for a good man.


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## StillSearching

sokillme said:


> So you're the reason the user Quality and others hate me. (that is a joke for people who read on her a lot.) This is why I post on here.
> 
> Anyway though after reading this and other posts I think after your spouse cheats on you the second time even the most ardent R people (and I am sure there are some on here) would say you only have yourself to blame. The time for blaming your WS is over. Until you fix with is broken in you you will never have the life you want.
> 
> You are codependent. You are the host to her parasite. My answer to everyone who say, well I love them is who cares! Love doesn't give you the right to let someone abuse you continually. You have a duty and an honor to stick up and protect yourself.
> 
> I posted about this book in another one of my post if you look it up it also has an article about your responsibility to your kids. I hope you are correct when you say your kids are healthy because a lot of times BS think they are doing right by staying but it leads to a whole host of problems in the adult kids lives. First of all most kids are perceptive enough to know something is wrong and eventually figure it out. The kids feel responsible and guilty because the one spouse stayed for them. The kids are made to live with a parent who is a narcissist and another parent who is beat down by a narcissist. This is what happened to me with a part of my childhood with my Mom and stepfather. There is no safe place to go to. At least if one parent gets away there is one safe parent that can be a refuge.
> 
> Staying for the kids is a terrible idea a lot of the time if not most.


I agree with most of what you say. But I say file for D the first time she cheats. If it's a WW. I don't know much about WH.
One reason I stayed was to keep the unknown women or men out of my house.
Yes codependent I was.
I have found that reason and logic don't come into play once a bomb has been dropped in your whole world.


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## Bananapeel

GusPolinski said:


> I don't see any realistic way for you to believe that she's not _still_ cheating.
> 
> I can't see staying in a marriage like this, but I'll play ball from the perspective that the potential financial fallout caused by divorce would be significant enough to keep me from filing:
> 
> I'd kick her out of the bedroom and tell her that she's free to sleep around with whoever she wants and whenever she wants, just so long as it doesn't happen under my roof.
> 
> And then I'd never touch her again.


I totally agree with this. If I was in the situation I'd expect an even playing field. Either it's a committed monogamous relationship for both people or it isn't, and there is nothing in between.


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## sokillme

MyRevelation said:


> StillSearching, I'll give you major props for being honest with yourself. It may not have been the choice others would make, and it doesn't appear it would be the choice you would make now in hindsight, but things change, we grow older, we acquire assets, family dynamics change and your reasons for staying now are likely completely different from the reasons you stayed originally, but you are being honest with yourself (and us) about your reasons then, which you may now regret, and your reasons now.
> 
> We see so many other BH's that choose R and then live a life of self-deception ... many of them are the most ardent supporters of R on these forums. It is pathetic watching them try to convince others to R, when they're really only trying to convince themselves that they did the right thing.
> 
> However, a BH CAN find happiness from within over any number of things, as long as they are honest with themselves, and NOT dependent on their WW's meeting their expectations of what you once thought you had. The hardest part for me was making peace with myself and accepting the consequences of my own poor choices. Now, I'm not excusing my W's behavior by accepting any blame for her choice, but I had ample evidence prior to M to see the red flags waving that I ignored due to being "in love" that could have allowed me to avoid the whole mess altogether ... THAT'S ON ME, and was part of me being honest enough with myself to acknowledge my mistakes and move forward from them.
> 
> I am painfully aware that I'm very capable of making major life screw ups ... now I focus on not making the same one's over again.


If you are still in the marriage are you sure you are not making the same one over and over again?


----------



## StillSearching

After years of reading and studying and looking for answers. I found many causes for cheaters and liars.
I should throw out this disclaimer. Just in case it might change another mans mind.
She was sexually abused as a young girl by her step father for 4 years.
She never got help.


----------



## sokillme

StillSearching said:


> I agree with most of what you say. But I say file for D the first time she cheats.


You must not read here much. I say that all the time. I really don't think R is ever a good idea, even if the cheating spouse moves heaven and earth, because staying with someone who abuses requires you killing a part of your soul. The best I can see is divorcing and starting over from scratch and let the WS compete. That at least levels the playing field somewhat. Gives the BS back the agency in their life. Mostly though I think once a BS gets out there and starts having relationships with people who have never stabbed them in the eye they see how badly they would be settling to go back to a person like their WS. 

I say that to you here now. You should divorce her and take your chances. You can still have a partnership in the business. 

It's great that you are posting to help people but if you are posting for sympathy you are misguided. You are in a hell of your own choosing. And it strikes me as another sign of codependency. That not really the benefit of staying is it? To get sympathy?


----------



## StillSearching

sokillme said:


> You must not read here much. I say that all the time. I really don't think R is ever a good idea, even if the cheating spouse moves heaven and earth, because staying with someone who abuses requires you killing a part of your soul. The best I can see is divorcing and starting over from scratch and let the WS compete. That at lest levels the playing field somewhat. Gives the BS back the agency in their life. Mostly though I think once a BS gets out there and starts having relationships with people who have never stabbed them in the eye they see how badly they would be settling to go back to a person like their WS.
> 
> I say that to you here now. You should divorce her and take your chances. You can still have a partnership in the business.
> 
> It's great that you are posting to help people but if you are posting for sympathy you are misguided. You are in a hell of your own choosing. And it strikes me as another sign of codependency. That not really the benefit of staying is it? To get sympathy?


partnership in the business would not happen.
With my experience with women, I was sure the next would cheat as well. 
I might still D but not likely.


----------



## katiecrna

StillSearching said:


> Yes codependent I was.
> 
> .




Yes codependent you still are. 

The reality is, that if you were to do it over again you would probably choose the same thing, to R. Because you are not even taking your own advice and she has cheated multiple times again. It's very easy to give advice, it's not easy to live your advice. 

Codependent people will find any excuse to stay. Whether it's love, for the kids, or for your current business which is your new excuse. 

I hope you find the strength to leave. OR find the strength to be at peace with your dysfunctional marriage. I wish you all the best.


----------



## Mizzbak

MyRevelation said:


> There are many who will argue there are no differences between WW's and WH's ... therefore, BH's and BW's should be advised in the same manner ... to which I call BS from the mountaintop. I don't read or respond to BW threads ... I simply have no point of reference from which to advise ... so I just stay away from them altogether. With that said, as a BH, my experience shows that there are very few BH/WW scenarios when the best advise ins't to D immediately and move on. There are just very few WW's worth the time, pain and risk of attempting R with them.





StillSearching said:


> There's a huge difference. I feel the same as you.
> "I don't read or respond to BW threads ... I simply have no point of reference from which to advise ... so I just stay away from them altogether." TRUE.
> There are NO scenarios worth staying.
> Men are not women, women are not men.
> Anyone here who has dealt with a WW as long as I have will concur.


I guess I have a deep aversion to grouping people in general and "mens only" clubs in particular, but curious to know why you both feel so strongly about this? When I met with my husband's AP's husband to talk over what we both knew about the affair, I was very conscious of how similar our feelings and states of mind were. There was an almost alarming degree of mutual empathy. 

I see that each of us are unique, but can share experiences and backgrounds that enable us to identify with one another outside of ourselves. For example, I would expect to have more in common (in my understanding of infidelity) with a BH who came from a similar cultural background than a BW who came from a culture that saw marriage in a very different way to mine. Out of interest, how would either of you respond to a man asking for advice as a BH with a WH?


----------



## TBT

StillSearching said:


> *Did she do it again? yes 3 different times. Different men.* And I was a hawk watching.
> How was she during R? She was very willing and upbeat.
> Did you go to counseling? Yes. Three times. Three different MCs.


If this was after the original infidelity,how long ago did,what you consider reconciliation,start? Also,how much was the family dynamic changed,because kids pick up on so much and this seems to have gone on for awhile?


----------



## JohnA

Your thread and your tone of your written has echoes of @river rat


----------



## StillSearching

Mizzbak said:


> I guess I have a deep aversion to grouping people in general and "mens only" clubs in particular, but curious to know why you both feel so strongly about this? When I met with my husband's AP's husband to talk over what we both knew about the affair, I was very conscious of how similar our feelings and states of mind were. There was an almost alarming degree of mutual empathy.
> 
> I see that each of us are unique, but can share experiences and backgrounds that enable us to identify with one another outside of ourselves. For example, I would expect to have more in common (in my understanding of infidelity) with a BH who came from a similar cultural background than a BW who came from a culture that saw marriage in a very different way to mine. Out of interest, how would either of you respond to a man asking for advice as a BH with a WH?


I didn't group up men and women differently. Nature did that. Understanding what each brings to a marriage is different is to understand why I can't help a really give advice to a BW. If a BH had a WH that's way out of level of experience to comment.


----------



## StillSearching

JohnA said:


> Your thread and your tone of your written has echoes of @river rat


I don't know River Rat? I've been away from here a long time.


----------



## StillSearching

TBT said:


> If this was after the original infidelity,how long ago did,what you consider reconciliation,start? 1/11/02 I became more apathetic with time
> Also,how much was the family dynamic changed,because kids pick up on so much and this seems to have gone on for awhile? It changed after the kids became teenagers. Their memories kinda woke up then.


----------



## StillSearching

katiecrna said:


> Yes codependent you still are.
> 
> The reality is, that if you were to do it over again you would probably choose the same thing, to R. Because you are not even taking your own advice and she has cheated multiple times again. It's very easy to give advice, it's not easy to live your advice.
> 
> Codependent people will find any excuse to stay. Whether it's love, for the kids, or for your current business which is your new excuse.
> 
> I hope you find the strength to leave. OR find the strength to be at peace with your dysfunctional marriage. I wish you all the best.


No one comes to this forum with a good functional marriage 
I'm at peace. But I would not recommend this road to any BH. The road is skinny and the shoulders are deadly. No matter how long you stay on it.


----------



## StillSearching

sokillme said:


> You must not read here much. I say that all the time. I really don't think R is ever a good idea, even if the cheating spouse moves heaven and earth, because staying with someone who abuses requires you killing a part of your soul. The best I can see is divorcing and starting over from scratch and let the WS compete. That at least levels the playing field somewhat. Gives the BS back the agency in their life. Mostly though I think once a BS gets out there and starts having relationships with people who have never stabbed them in the eye they see how badly they would be settling to go back to a person like their WS.
> 
> I say that to you here now. You should divorce her and take your chances. You can still have a partnership in the business.
> 
> It's great that you are posting to help people but if you are posting for sympathy you are misguided. You are in a hell of your own choosing. And it strikes me as another sign of codependency. That not really the benefit of staying is it? To get sympathy?


By no means am I looking for sympathy. I just saw BHs on here and if they don't want to be still searching for answers 15 years later, they need to file and leave now.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

StillSearching, I admire you for coming here to advise others not to do what you did. I am of the same mindset. I recently advised someone I know not to R with his cheating wife and he's been trying...she currently has a boyfriend and he is not aware.


----------



## Red Sonja

StillSearching said:


> A shared business that is doing very well.


Look into putting your ownership shares of the business into a voting trust where you and your wife are the trustees with 50/50 ownership (or whatever is equitable). This will work for a INC or LLC, public or private, even with outside owners/investors. If you do this you are not forced to sell or otherwise dissolve the business in order to divide it's value in a divorce.

This is what I did with my three businesses (2 INC's, 1 LLC), I am divorced and the arrangement with the trust continues to work, is legally binding and all individual interests are protected by law. Talk to a trust lawyer.


----------



## theDrifter

Everything you have said are things I have said in one post or another on here. I also stayed and consider it easily the worst mistake of my life. 

I always failed to understand is why so many men, myself included, who chose to stay with WW end up regretting that decision and become strong advocates for divorce. Recently I read some research regarding human inertia and I really connected with it. This is a great article and I encourage everyone to read it:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-power-prime/201112/four-forces-life-inertia

The "force" that made the biggest impact on me was this:

_* if our needs have not been adequately met in childhood, for example, if we grew up in an emotionally chaotic family, then our need for love and security becomes a propulsion system that drives us powerfully, but down the wrong path. We will need to let go of our unhealthy needs and reconnect with our healthy ones, so that we can finally power our life inertia with a propulsion system of our own choosing.*_

The very notion of "life inertia" just feels right to me. There are more of these inertia forces that are equally powerful but suffice it to say that many people are terrified of change. To me this explains why many men choose to try reconciliation after their initial reaction. The horror of their wife screwing another man is simply less than the terror of making a dramatic change to their life. Over time a man can become more enlightened and realize that this life inertia is something that he CAN change. That the prison he is living in is truly of his own doing. Lots of these guys decide to end the marriage but probably more of them choose - again - to just find a way to live with it. Like it's safer choosing the devil you know. A big part of the reason these guys would still stay is that over the time between d-day and that day he realizes staying was a mistake a whole lot more family & financial entanglements have developed. This gives him tangible support for just continuing to ride it out.

The time to leave is d-day. Don't waste time trying to reconcile. At best reconciliation is a long, painful process for both BH and WW and it often ends in divorce anyway or BH simply pretending he will "get over it". End the marriage and start fresh - it's much better for both of you.


----------



## StillSearching

3Xnocharm said:


> StillSearching, I admire you for coming here to advise others not to do what you did. I am of the same mindset. I recently advised someone I know not to R with his cheating wife and he's been trying...she currently has a boyfriend and he is not aware.


Do whatever you can. He is not thinking clearly. He has no idea what's ahead of him...


----------



## Thor

adegirl2016 said:


> I am 99.9 percent sure my husbands affair is over, BUT I am 95 percent sure he will do it again, even though most of the time, he is happy and upbeat about R.


Slight drift on the topic, but being on the other side now I can't understand staying with someone like that. Yes, I calculated my teen kids needed me in the house, and I still believe that was true at the time. But I had opportunities to leave well before that and didn't. There was a lot of denial on my part across many years.

Yes, the finances are a lot tougher now, and I'm older which has challenges with finding a new partner. Divorcing earlier would have been easier, but it is still a better place to be than knowing your spouse is fundamentally dishonest. Current challenges are not soul crushing the way staying with a lying spouse is.


----------



## MarriedTex

StillSearching said:


> By no means am I looking for sympathy. I just saw BHs on here and if they don't want to be still searching for answers 15 years later, they need to file and leave now.


Curious, what triggers you to come back to TAM at this point? Has some recent event or realization triggered you. You are obviously in the process of taking stock of things and looking at your situation with deeper analysis. Is there anything that emerged in just the past week or past month that has you searching harder for answers than before?


----------



## StillSearching

theDrifter said:


> Everything you have said are things I have said in one post or another on here. I also stayed and consider it easily the worst mistake of my life.
> 
> I always failed to understand is why so many men, myself included, who chose to stay with WW end up regretting that decision and become strong advocates for divorce. Recently I read some research regarding human inertia and I really connected with it. This is a great article and I encourage everyone to read it:
> 
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-power-prime/201112/four-forces-life-inertia
> 
> The "force" that made the biggest impact on me was this:
> 
> _* if our needs have not been adequately met in childhood, for example, if we grew up in an emotionally chaotic family, then our need for love and security becomes a propulsion system that drives us powerfully, but down the wrong path. We will need to let go of our unhealthy needs and reconnect with our healthy ones, so that we can finally power our life inertia with a propulsion system of our own choosing.*_
> 
> The very notion of "life inertia" just feels right to me. There are more of these inertia forces that are equally powerful but suffice it to say that many people are terrified of change. To me this explains why many men choose to try reconciliation after their initial reaction. The horror of their wife screwing another man is simply less than the terror of making a dramatic change to their life. Over time a man can become more enlightened and realize that this life inertia is something that he CAN change. That the prison he is living in is truly of his own doing. Lots of these guys decide to end the marriage but probably more of them choose - again - to just find a way to live with it. Like it's safer choosing the devil you know. A big part of the reason these guys would still stay is that over the time between d-day and that day he realizes staying was a mistake a whole lot more family & financial entanglements have developed. This gives him tangible support for just continuing to ride it out.
> 
> The time to leave is d-day. Don't waste time trying to reconcile. At best reconciliation is a long, painful process for both BH and WW and it often ends in divorce anyway or BH simply pretending he will "get over it". End the marriage and start fresh - it's much better for both of you.


Wow that's good stuff. But man even when I think of D-Day now it gives me chills. Not sure I could have done much more than cry. Wish I would have had it together then to go for it. 
I understand a mans reluctance to leave. 
I have a better understanding of why you should leave now.


----------



## Thor

StillSearching said:


> After years of reading and studying and looking for answers. I found many causes for cheaters and liars.
> I should throw out this disclaimer. Just in case it might change another mans mind.
> She was sexually abused as a young girl by her step father for 4 years.
> She never got help.


Are you a Nice Guy? If so, that is the Perfect Storm relationship. Btdt myself!


----------



## *Deidre*

I think I know who you are, I remember a similar story last year. Well, I'm sorry to read that you regret staying in your marriage (not entirely surprised tho), glad to see you still find joy in life. I'm personally not an advocate for reconciliation but I understand why people feel they should give someone a second chance. You thought you were doing the right thing, I hope you know there's no fault in that.


----------



## StillSearching

MarriedTex said:


> Curious, what triggers you to come back to TAM at this point? Has some recent event or realization triggered you. You are obviously in the process of taking stock of things and looking at your situation with deeper analysis. Is there anything that emerged in just the past week or past month that has you searching harder for answers than before?


Curious, what triggers you to come back to TAM at this point? Has some recent event or realization triggered you. That's a good question. I have a friend who wants to start an affair with a MW and after talking to him I wanted to do more. 
You are obviously in the process of taking stock of things and looking at your situation with deeper analysis. Is there anything that emerged in just the past week or past month that has you searching harder for answers than before? I'm at home alone, my wife is on the road working and my kids are all gone. Self reflection. Maybe thinking how much stronger I was then than I thought I was. I see more infidelity around me everyday. Nothing specific comes to mind.


----------



## StillSearching

Thor said:


> Are you a Nice Guy? If so, that is the Perfect Storm relationship. Btdt myself!


No. I was a nice guy. Grew up around just boys.
Funny how as I understood my manhood the dysfunctional marriage bothered me less.


----------



## StillSearching

One thing that comes back to me every few months happened at the very first MC meeting. He asked us each "What are you most afraid of?"
I said "Losing my marriage and children"
She said "That he wakes up and realizes things and leaves me."


----------



## SuperConfusedHusband

StillSearching said:


> No. I was a nice guy. Grew up around just boys.
> Funny how as I understood my manhood the dysfunctional marriage bothered me less.


*raises his hands
I'm a recovering nice guy too, and when you do get in recovery...oh boy your entire belief system is shaken up! 
And yes some things stop bothering you LOL


----------



## StillSearching

*Deidre* said:


> I think I know who you are, I remember a similar story last year. Well, I'm sorry to read that you regret staying in your marriage (not entirely surprised tho), glad to see you still find joy in life. I'm personally not an advocate for reconciliation but I understand why people feel they should give someone a second chance. You thought you were doing the right thing, I hope you know there's no fault in that.


I don't think I posted last year. But my life has been a maelstrom. I might have. I was an advocate for reconciliation in the beginning years ago. Not now.


----------



## theDrifter

StillSearching said:


> Wow that's good stuff. But man even when I think of D-Day now it gives me chills._* Not sure I could have done much more than cry. Wish I would have had it together then to go for it. *_
> I understand a mans reluctance to leave.
> I have a better understanding of why you should leave now.


I completely agree. After the shock wore off I was determined to hate her forever and only communicate with her when I had to regarding our young son. Two weeks later when she begged me to come back it wasn't even a close call. I was drowning in a sea of $hit and she offered me a life raft. Like you - and most BH - I was in a state of shock and in no way emotionally equipped to make a rational decision. 

If I would have had an anonymous forum like this I believe I would have recognized the gas-lighting my wife was doing and would have sought IC. Through counseling I think I could have garnered the strength to end the marriage. This is what I advise all BH's to do. Educate yourself. Realize that your WW will do everything possible to manipulate you - especially using sex. If possible go stay in a hotel for a few days. Find a counselor and start seeing them now. Meet with a divorce lawyer and ask the questions you are afraid to ask. Most importantly, take some time to let the weight of her betrayal settle on you before even thinking about reconciliation.


----------



## StillSearching

theDrifter said:


> I completely agree. After the shock wore off I was determined to hate her forever and only communicate with her when I had to regarding our young son. Two weeks later when she begged me to come back it wasn't even a close call. I was drowning in a sea of $hit and she offered me a life raft. Like you - and most BH - I was in a state of shock and in no way emotionally equipped to make a rational decision.
> 
> If I would have had an anonymous forum like this I believe I would have recognized the gas-lighting my wife was doing and would have sought IC. Through counseling I think I could have garnered the strength to end the marriage. This is what I advise all BH's to do. Educate yourself. Realize that your WW will do everything possible to manipulate you - especially using sex. If possible go stay in a hotel for a few days. Find a counselor and start seeing them now. Meet with a divorce lawyer and ask the questions you are afraid to ask. Most importantly, take some time to let the weight of her betrayal settle on you before even thinking about reconciliation.


Yes! But don't think about reconciliation.


----------



## Quality

StillSearching said:


> Hello I was here circa 2002. I Signed up and told my story.
> My D-Day is 1/10/02. My wife had an affair with a co-worker. I found out from marks he left on her.
> Its been a hard fought 15 years. I had many people here then tell me my story was fake. It drove me away from this site.
> I'm still with my wife. I have 3 kids all in college now.
> 
> I came back to read through some stories and try help if I could.
> If I could choose to do it over again, I would not. I would advise any BS not to reconcile. Even now I do not have a real marriage. Trust...well you never get that back. The pain fades.
> I have a good relationship with my wife but I am sure I would be a lot happier had I left in 2002.
> I had hopes things would be like they were. I was blinded by love.
> So makes your choices wisely. Listen to BSs here. Get a lawyer. Get a D. Get on with your life. Be happy.


I don't find it surprising the TAM members in 2002 found your story fake considering Chris launched this forum January 24, 2007.

Besides, the whole "I have a good relationship with my wife but I would have been a lot happier had I left in 2002" therefore all you all should "get a lawyer ~ get a D ~ get on with your life ~ be happy" after your supposedly former wayward wife went to counseling with you just a couple of times and then proceeded to keep cheating with the OM and have 3 additional OM's thereafter despite you watching her "like a hawk" just sounds absolutely unbelievable.


Most marriages reconcile and, more often than not, the next person to actually have an affair is the betrayed spouse. If the Wayward spouse cheats again ~~ you divorce. There's also no sense staying with an unrepentant wayward spouse. A betrayed spouse that stays with a serial cheating spouse after 3 or 4 affairs really shouldn't be in the relationship advice business.

I'm sorry for your story if it's true, but I'm happily recovered two decades and my wife and I have many other couples recover too. Divorce probably would have been the correct choice for you, in hindsight, but you should have known that fact 14 years ago, so applying your 15 years of resentment onto everyone's wayward spouse is a little bit over the top.


----------



## 225985

Still searching or still browsing for the answer?


----------



## TX-SC

So, excuse my objectivity here, but what we are reading is the musings of a man who had an unremorsefull, cheating wife. This wife continued to cheat and lie, even through counseling. 

However, we are to believe that ALL wayward wives are unredeemable. Even if a WW is TRULY remorseful of her mistake, she should be divorced? But yet, that only applies to women? 

I am sorry you were treated so poorly, but I have a hard applying your specific situation to all instances of cheating. 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


----------



## StillSearching

blueinbr said:


> Still searching or still browsing for the answer?


No driving to meet my son in rehab.


----------



## StillSearching

Quality said:


> I don't find it surprising the TAM members in 2002 found your story fake considering Chris launched this forum January 24, 2007.
> 
> Besides, the whole "I have a good relationship with my wife but I would have been a lot happier had I left in 2002" therefore all you all should "get a lawyer ~ get a D ~ get on with your life ~ be happy" after your supposedly former wayward wife went to counseling with you just a couple of times and then proceeded to keep cheating with the OM and have 3 additional OM's thereafter despite you watching her "like a hawk" just sounds absolutely unbelievable.
> 
> 
> Most marriages reconcile and, more often than not, the next person to actually have an affair is the betrayed spouse. If the Wayward spouse cheats again ~~ you divorce. There's also no sense staying with an unrepentant wayward spouse. A betrayed spouse that stays with a serial cheating spouse after 3 or 4 affairs really shouldn't be in the relationship advice business.
> 
> I'm sorry for your story if it's true, but I'm happily recovered two decades and my wife and I have many other couples recover too. Divorce probably would have been the correct choice for you, in hindsight, but you should have known that fact 14 years ago, so applying your 15 years of resentment onto everyone's wayward spouse is a little bit over the top.


I challenge you to remember every forum to logged into 15 years ago looking for answers.
I'm not in the relationship business I'm in the software business. 
Reconciliation could lead one to where I am.


----------



## BobSimmons

StillSearching said:


> Hello I was here circa 2002. I Signed up and told my story.
> My D-Day is 1/10/02. My wife had an affair with a co-worker. I found out from marks he left on her.
> Its been a hard fought 15 years. I had many people here then tell me my story was fake. It drove me away from this site.
> I'm still with my wife. I have 3 kids all in college now.
> 
> I came back to read through some stories and try help if I could.
> If I could choose to do it over again, I would not. I would advise any BS not to reconcile. Even now I do not have a real marriage. Trust...well you never get that back. The pain fades.
> I have a good relationship with my wife but I am sure I would be a lot happier had I left in 2002.
> I had hopes things would be like they were. I was blinded by love.
> So makes your choices wisely. Listen to BSs here. Get a lawyer. Get a D. Get on with your life. Be happy.



I'm curious, out of those that did try to advise you, how many told you to leave your wife?


----------



## Rubix Cubed

Thanks for coming back and offering your experience in spite of the naysayers.


----------



## StillSearching

BobSimmons said:


> I'm curious, out of those that did try to advise you, how many told you to leave your wife?


I would say 80%


----------



## bandit.45

3Xnocharm said:


> StillSearching, I admire you for coming here to advise others not to do what you did. I am of the same mindset. I recently advised someone I know not to R with his cheating wife and he's been trying...she currently has a boyfriend and he is not aware.


Why the hell havent you told him?


----------



## StillSearching

TX-SC said:


> So, excuse my objectivity here, but what we are reading is the musings of a man who had an unremorsefull, cheating wife. This wife continued to cheat and lie, even through counseling.
> 
> However, we are to believe that ALL wayward wives are unredeemable. Even if a WW is TRULY remorseful of her mistake, she should be divorced? But yet, that only applies to women?
> 
> I am sorry you were treated so poorly, but I have a hard applying your specific situation to all instances of cheating.
> 
> Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


I would say it's not so much about your WW. It's about what happens to your psychological health.


----------



## 225985

StillSearching said:


> I challenge you to remember every forum to logged into 15 years ago looking for answers.
> 
> I'm not in the relationship business I'm in the software business.
> 
> Reconciliation could lead one to where I am.




Seems like a lot of the guys here that are cheated on work in IT or software. 

Why is that? What's the common trait?


----------



## JohnA

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/39549-trigger-far-out.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/38600-longterm-recovery.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/148266-red-flag.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/79609-successful-rugsweep.html

Read in order. If you click on a name after the @ you will bring up the user's profile page. Also when posting if you use the @StillSearching it will send them a notification.


----------



## StillSearching

blueinbr said:


> Seems like a lot of the guys here that are cheated on work in IT or software.
> 
> Why is that? What's the common trait?


I am not what you'd think of as some girly computer geek if that's what you mean by trait. I think it's maybe more common place these days with the tech industry growth.


----------



## StillSearching

JohnA said:


> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/39549-trigger-far-out.html
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/38600-longterm-recovery.html
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/148266-red-flag.html
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/79609-successful-rugsweep.html
> 
> Read in order. If you click on a name after the @ you will bring up the user's profile page. Also when posting if you use the @StillSearching it will send them a notification.


It does sound like River Rat and I have a lot in common. I've only been married 24 years now. I feel to talk to him, if that is what your getting at, may not be all that helpful to me. Is that what this post is about?


----------



## GusPolinski

blueinbr said:


> Seems like a lot of the guys here that are cheated on work in IT or software.
> 
> Why is that? What's the common trait?


A propensity for debugging/troubleshooting combined with a stubborn refusal to accept that the app/environment you've spent years building is a steaming pile of crap, though mostly because you've chosen a crap language/hardware platform.


----------



## becareful2

StillSearching said:


> One thing that comes back to me every few months happened at the very first MC meeting. He asked us each "What are you most afraid of?"
> I said "Losing my marriage and children"
> *She said "That he wakes up and realizes things and leaves me."*


And that's how you get your self-respect back. You can absolutely get it back if you want to. Who is to say she hasn't been cheating while on the road on business trips. Don't make excuses about staying for the kids, and then staying for money (business). You sound very codependent and afraid to give up the good sex. Your wife has less integrity than a $20 crack *****, so your decision to stay and suffer the psychological torture is all on you. Learn from River Rat; get your balls back from inside her purse, staple them back on, and move on with your life. All men must have a measure of self-respect. You, Drifter777, River Rat, and MajDeath all need to get together for a beer sometime.


----------



## arobk

I think people in those fields are more likely to go to online forums. Reddit has many people in those jobs.


----------



## sokillme

theDrifter said:


> Everything you have said are things I have said in one post or another on here. I also stayed and consider it easily the worst mistake of my life.
> 
> I always failed to understand is why so many men, myself included, who chose to stay with WW end up regretting that decision and become strong advocates for divorce. Recently I read some research regarding human inertia and I really connected with it. This is a great article and I encourage everyone to read it:
> 
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-power-prime/201112/four-forces-life-inertia
> 
> The "force" that made the biggest impact on me was this:
> 
> _* if our needs have not been adequately met in childhood, for example, if we grew up in an emotionally chaotic family, then our need for love and security becomes a propulsion system that drives us powerfully, but down the wrong path. We will need to let go of our unhealthy needs and reconnect with our healthy ones, so that we can finally power our life inertia with a propulsion system of our own choosing.*_
> 
> The very notion of "life inertia" just feels right to me. There are more of these inertia forces that are equally powerful but suffice it to say that many people are terrified of change. To me this explains why many men choose to try reconciliation after their initial reaction. The horror of their wife screwing another man is simply less than the terror of making a dramatic change to their life. Over time a man can become more enlightened and realize that this life inertia is something that he CAN change. That the prison he is living in is truly of his own doing. Lots of these guys decide to end the marriage but probably more of them choose - again - to just find a way to live with it. Like it's safer choosing the devil you know. A big part of the reason these guys would still stay is that over the time between d-day and that day he realizes staying was a mistake a whole lot more family & financial entanglements have developed. This gives him tangible support for just continuing to ride it out.
> 
> The time to leave is d-day. Don't waste time trying to reconcile. At best reconciliation is a long, painful process for both BH and WW and it often ends in divorce anyway or BH simply pretending he will "get over it". End the marriage and start fresh - it's much better for both of you.


I get not wanting to leave because of fear (not really but at least can see why it may seem easier) but what explains them so passively taking the crap and still being so meek about it. So many write about the crap they have to eat like its filet mignon. For instance some of the people who advocate for others to also settle and be in the same kind of trapped lives? 

I mean if I decided to stay lets say for the kids, I am almost positive I would cheat and probably do it in the most painful way possible, and gaslight the hell out of it on purpose I might add. I would turn into a truly awful despicable human being. My first priority would be to kill every inch of my love for this person with fire as quickly as possible. Our marriage at that point would be detente, an ice cold business partnership. This is why I know I could never R. It's not in my nature. 

I think it's more than fear of change, it's the belief that you don't deserve better. There is none of the, if someone punches me, I will stab them back, which is in my opinion a healthy feeling, though it should not be acted upon. That feeling is what helped me leave my cheater. It's the school yard bully syndrome. A lot of these guys that stay are kind of the same as the kid that keeps getting punched in school. They never learned to fight back. That seems to be another big part of what is missing.


----------



## sokillme

Mizzbak said:


> I guess I have a deep aversion to grouping people in general and "mens only" clubs in particular, but curious to know why you both feel so strongly about this? When I met with my husband's AP's husband to talk over what we both knew about the affair, I was very conscious of how similar our feelings and states of mind were. There was an almost alarming degree of mutual empathy.
> 
> I see that each of us are unique, but can share experiences and backgrounds that enable us to identify with one another outside of ourselves. For example, I would expect to have more in common (in my understanding of infidelity) with a BH who came from a similar cultural background than a BW who came from a culture that saw marriage in a very different way to mine. Out of interest, how would either of you respond to a man asking for advice as a BH with a WH?


Maybe the difference isn't in the feelings of being cheated on, but the feelings about what you are looking for in a partner of the opposite sex. Personally I think the similarities outweigh the differences by a great margin. But I do think when it comes to R men and women have some differences in how the affair affects how they think of themselves as it pertains to their gender and how they think they live up to their ideals. If you get what I am saying. 

In the end I don't really think it matters much as far as advice given. So a women doubts is she is pretty, and a man doubts if he is masculine enough. That is kind of different, but only in the sense that the genders have different things they want from one another and themselves. 

A great difference has to do with paternity though. Paternity fraud is a special kind of hell only men go through. 

I think a lot of it can be attributed to the fact that even today when it comes to the sexes, generally the norm is, women are supposed to be chased, but men have to win their wives. So in this dynamic it is always the man is active and the women who is passive. I think that also has something to do with it. 

Maybe is some ways that makes it worse on the woman as if you think of the stereotype an attractive women always will have suitors, but for a man to cheat he has to be out there trying to win his affair partner. Active vs passive. In reality it doesn't work that way, but that is still how we perceive each other.


----------



## sokillme

Quality said:


> I don't find it surprising the TAM members in 2002 found your story fake considering Chris launched this forum January 24, 2007.
> 
> Besides, the whole "I have a good relationship with my wife but I would have been a lot happier had I left in 2002" therefore all you all should "get a lawyer ~ get a D ~ get on with your life ~ be happy" after your supposedly former wayward wife went to counseling with you just a couple of times and then proceeded to keep cheating with the OM and have 3 additional OM's thereafter despite you watching her "like a hawk" just sounds absolutely unbelievable.
> 
> 
> Most marriages reconcile and, more often than not, the next person to actually have an affair is the betrayed spouse. If the Wayward spouse cheats again ~~ you divorce. There's also no sense staying with an unrepentant wayward spouse. A betrayed spouse that stays with a serial cheating spouse after 3 or 4 affairs really shouldn't be in the relationship advice business.
> 
> I'm sorry for your story if it's true, but I'm happily recovered two decades and my wife and I have many other couples recover too. Divorce probably would have been the correct choice for you, in hindsight, but you should have known that fact 14 years ago, so applying your 15 years of resentment onto everyone's wayward spouse is a little bit over the top.


Here he comes to save he day!! And as usual he doesn't use logic for rebuttals nope first like of attack is the persons credibility and character. Quality you really are not.


----------



## sokillme

blueinbr said:


> Seems like a lot of the guys here that are cheated on work in IT or software.
> 
> Why is that? What's the common trait?


I suspect people who work in software are more apt to post on a message board. Remember message boards are about 75% of were they get technical help and information. It's really a part of the culture.


----------



## Quality

sokillme said:


> I mean if I decided to stay lets say for the kids, I am almost positive I would cheat and probably do it in the most painful way possible, and gaslight the hell out of it on purpose I might add. I would turn into a truly awful despicable human being. My first priority would be to kill every inch of my love for this person with fire as quickly as possible. Our marriage at that point would be detente, an ice cold business partnership. This is why I know I could never R. It's not in my nature.


This above is completely a wayward mindset. That your fidelity/character/morality is dependent upon another person. It's the same mindset many waywards use while justifying and rationalizing their own affairs. It's also consistent with the theory that waywards make the worst betrayed spouses ever. it's so often "not their nature" and "they know they could never recover". I know your theories are all figurative since you've never experienced actual marital infidelity so you've never had to make any of these choices in real life but maybe as you grow older and more experienced you'll come to understand that much like you didn't discard and end your relationship with your own wayward father, many people are likewise capable of forgiveness and understanding of their longterm spouses with whom they share a rich history of love and respect {albeit a wayward period} and with whom they often share children, bank accounts, mortgages, etc. For your sake, since your fidelity, as you state, is so situational, I hope your wife finds you redeemable should you ever feel she deserves to be cheated on at any point in time down the road.




sokillme said:


> I think it's more than fear of change, it's the belief that you don't deserve better. There is none of the, if someone punches me, I will stab them back, which is in my opinion a healthy feeling, though it should not be acted upon. That feeling is what helped me leave my cheater. It's the school yard bully syndrome. A lot of these guys that stay are kind of the same as the kid that keeps getting punched in school. They never learned to fight back. That seems to be another big part of what is missing.


Ahhhh, the wayward battlecry of entitlement ~~ "I deserve better". None of us are getting what we actually deserve {biblically speaking}.

I deserve whatever MORE God sees fit to provide me. He's already saved me from death at the Cross and I'm not a proponent of the prosperity gospel where I get to self declare who I am in Him and wish/anoint myself royalty, an apostle or a prophet. Instead "what I deserve" will result from who He is within me and the choices I make in counsel with the Holy Spirit inside me. The upside? The fruit of the spirit is not fear but rather love, joy, peace, FOREBEARANCE, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control (Galatians 5:22-23 NIV). But that's just my actual experienced having recovered my loving marriage two decades now. I've been very fortunate and though my wife and I both changed a lot, God gets all the credit. 

Jesus saw fit to provide us with a right to divorce for adultery if one chooses. There is no requirement to divorce. It's up to each of us what we can bear or forgive in this life or not. Some persons can't do it and some can. There's nothing wrong with either but God hates divorce and we know Jesus would want us to try as He is forgiveness and modeled forgiveness for us throughout His life {and death} here on earth. Sure some unwisely stay married in the face of unrepentance and fail to address and overcome the sin, conflicts, immaturity and continued abuse but, likewise, there are many others who divorce too quickly and then come to regret a hastily made decision and forever second guess whether there might have been a chance to fix it. The issue really becomes about discerning the best, most God pleasing, path for each individual person as they experience it. Helping them sort through the emotions and feelings that cloud good judgment over time so they can arrive at the absolute truth about the likelihood of redemption, repentance, restoration and reconciliation in any given situation and actually decide for themselves what they choose to bear or forgive as they see fit for THEIR LIVES.


----------



## Quality

sokillme said:


> Here he comes to save he day!! And as usual he doesn't use logic for rebuttals nope first like of attack is the persons credibility and character. Quality you really are not.


The evidence suggests that the OP appears to be riverrat.

That is either a fact or not a fact that rebutting with logic or lllogic will never change.


I then presumed the posters sad story may be truthful and provided a logical rebuttal which can be summarized that just because he sucked at reconciliation and shouldn't have recovered doesn't negate the possibility of a great recovery in any, let alone, every situation and his thesis that every one should file ~ be happy ~ is as ridiculous as me claiming that since I recovered wonderfully, that EVERYONE should recover {or even try to recover} wonderfully.

But then again, I'm just a cowering co-dependent weak betrayed husband too afraid to seek out all the better I deserve from life posting completely out of my cognitive dissonance trying to make myself feel better about my obviously miserable soul sucking choices to forgive my wife and let her get away with adultery so who am I to contradict your astute logical rebuttals and overall ability to avoid ridiculous attacks on poster's credibility and character?


----------



## StillSearching

Quality said:


> The evidence suggests that the OP appears to be riverrat.
> 
> That is either a fact or not a fact that rebutting with logic or lllogic will never change.
> 
> 
> I then presumed the posters sad story may be truthful and provided a logical rebuttal which can be summarized that just because he sucked at reconciliation and shouldn't have recovered doesn't negate the possibility of a great recovery in any, let alone, every situation and his thesis that every one should file ~ be happy ~ is as ridiculous as me claiming that since I recovered wonderfully, that EVERYONE should recover {or even try to recover} wonderfully.
> 
> But then again, I'm just a cowering co-dependent weak betrayed husband too afraid to seek out all the better I deserve from life posting completely out of my cognitive dissonance trying to make myself feel better about my obviously miserable soul sucking choices to forgive my wife and let her get away with adultery so who am I to contradict your astute logical rebuttals and overall ability to avoid ridiculous attacks on poster's credibility and character?


I won't say this again. I am not River Rat. 
I have read some of his posts and am not that miserable.
I do have a good relationship with my wife.
I came here to share my experience or 15 years of recovery and where it lead me. 
I don't think I sucked at reconciliation. I'm still married 24 years now.
Great recovery? That's a farce. Good luck.
I sense by your attitude and skepticism of a stranger that you might be one to defect the reality of your marriage to others.

Your condescending sarcasm is lost in your arrogance.

Maybe you should use your experience to help me understand how it made your marriage great?
I'm here to learn as well.


----------



## barbados

OP,

You mentioned your WW was involved in work A's. Were all her OM's co-workers ? 

How did you find out about her A's, specifically the first one.

I ask the above because a LOT of the cheating we see here seem to be work related and any insight you might have along those lines my be useful.


----------



## StillSearching

I came here to share my insight. I knew what waits in the shadows and still I came.
To me it is important.

Suffering IS the human condition
We are all here to do it, and become better people as a result. That's not say we should not avoid it.
Reconciliation intensifies suffering
Reconciliation makes suffering more frequent
Reconciliation extends the duration of suffering
Your marriage will never be the same. Stronger? Better? what does that really mean?
My experience is different, every ones life experience is different. 
I say reduce your suffering.
Start a new life as soon as you can. 
You may only have one. Don't be me.


----------



## MyRevelation

sokillme said:


> If you are still in the marriage are you sure you are not making the same one over and over again?


Possibly, but not necessarily. As I posted originally, life changes occur over 10 years ... what I thought was a good decision 10 years ago, may not look so good in the rear view mirror with the benefit of hindsight, but I can't go back to THEN and remake that decision. Also, as we age, priorities change. At this point in my life, I'm 3.5 years away from retirement. I've worked nearly 40 years to get here and I have real plans for that time that I'm not willing to chuck just to attempt a "do over" of a 10 year old mistake at this point in my life.

Much like StillSearching, I'm not dealing with a horrible, or even bad, situation. If I were, we wouldn't even be discussing this, but in fact, we have a very comfortable life that however, is "less than" what it could have been. I'm also not nearly as invested in the M as I was 10 years ago, which has lead to a 180 degree power shift in the M. Whoever said, "The one who cares the least in a relationship, holds the power" was SPOT ON.


----------



## StillSearching

barbados said:


> OP,
> 
> You mentioned your WW was involved in work A's. Were all her OM's co-workers ?
> 
> How did you find out about her A's, specifically the first one.
> 
> I ask the above because a LOT of the cheating we see here seem to be work related and any insight you might have along those lines my be useful.


*Were all her OM's co-workers ?* Two from work. The other was a EA from old facebook friend.

*How did you find out about her A's, specifically the first one*. I came home from picking up my kids. I was gone 1 1/2 days. I went to have sex with her and she had marks on her private parts and stomach. I asked her if she did that to herself. She said "No." My heart stopped. She confessed a one night fling with stranger at a party, but said there was no penetration. That was the start of a very long painful road. I believe that that was the first day infidelity. Second one, she went to ALT for work could not be reached by phone for 18 hours. Told me she was in the hotel bar drinking with a friend. Found out there was not hotel bar. She came home, never confessed. Never told me where she was. When with to GYN Dr. made her get STD tested. came back clean.

*I ask the above because a LOT of the cheating we see here seem to be work related and any insight you might have along those lines my be useful.* The numbers suggest most are. Work affairs are very hard to find out. Get to know her work friends. She will tend to avoid introducing you to her lover. Watch her body language at work get together's. No girls night out with work friends. No after work group dinners. Check her phone when she sleeps. She may tend not to delete late night chats til morning. VAR of course. It's paramount to know and understand your wife's childhood history.
Most importantly be the confident man you were that she feel in love with and dated. That will keep from straying in the first place. 
"Your not who I married" don't be that guy.


----------



## sokillme

StillSearching said:


> Maybe you should use your experience to help me understand how it made your marriage great?
> I'm here to learn as well.


Maybe he did at one time but, he never makes posts like this he just comes here to insult people who disagree with him.


----------



## StillSearching

MyRevelation said:


> Possibly, but not necessarily. As I posted originally, life changes occur over 10 years ... what I thought was a good decision 10 years ago, may not look so good in the rear view mirror with the benefit of hindsight, but I can't go back to THEN and remake that decision. Also, as we age, priorities change. At this point in my life, I'm 3.5 years away from retirement. I've worked nearly 40 years to get here and I have real plans for that time that I'm not willing to chuck just to attempt a "do over" of a 10 year old mistake at this point in my life.
> 
> Much like StillSearching, I'm not dealing with a horrible, or even bad, situation. If I were, we wouldn't even be discussing this, but in fact, we have a very comfortable life that however, is "less than" what it could have been. I'm also not nearly as invested in the M as I was 10 years ago, which has lead to a 180 degree power shift in the M. Whoever said, "The one who cares the least in a relationship, holds the power" was SPOT ON.


WORD!
Where was the ghost Christmas Future when I needed him?
I do hold the power now. Have for a while.
Would you advocate reconciliation now?


----------



## 225985

sokillme said:


> Maybe he did at one time but, he never makes posts like this he just comes here to insult people who disagree with him.




A lot of people do that.


----------



## dubsey

I got divorced right away. I now live with my ex. Have for years. It's working out ok for us. NOt that this is relevant to your situation, but...

Dude, just get divorced. Sort out the business stuff (it's primarily why I got divorced) and go find your happy. It changes the dynamic completely once you're "free" and can leave at any time.

Just flat out tell her, you'll never forgive her, you'll never forget. She can't be happy either.


----------



## StillSearching

sokillme said:


> Maybe he did at one time but, he never makes posts like this he just comes here to insult people who disagree with him.


Sounds like he's not really as happy as he states.


----------



## 225985

StillSearching said:


> I came here to share my insight. I knew what waits in the shadows and still I came.
> 
> To me it is important.
> 
> 
> 
> Suffering IS the human condition
> 
> We are all here to do it, and become better people as a result. That's not say we should not avoid it.
> 
> Reconciliation intensifies suffering
> 
> Reconciliation makes suffering more frequent
> 
> Reconciliation extends the duration of suffering
> 
> Your marriage will never be the same. Stronger? Better? what does that really mean?
> 
> My experience is different, every ones life experience is different.
> 
> I say reduce your suffering.
> 
> Start a new life as soon as you can.
> 
> You may only have one. Don't be me.




Maybe your problem wasn't reconciliation in general but the way you did it, or failed to do it. 

Your lessons to others should highlight what you and W did wrong, not that R is bad. 

You made the right decision for you at the time.


----------



## stixx

From what I've read of the numerous stories of those betrayed partners who "successfully reconciled" there is no such thing as a great reconciliation.

It's like rebuilding a town after a nuclear bomb blast has turned it into a wasteland.

Sure you can rebuild but it will never be the same as it was before, and there's still pockets of dangerous radioactivity.


----------



## Thor

StillSearching said:


> It's paramount to know and understand your wife's childhood history.
> Most importantly be the confident man you were that she feel in love with and dated. That will keep from straying in the first place.
> "Your not who I married" don't be that guy.


With CSA it is likely unimportant that you remain the man she married. In many cases, simply being her husband _by definition_ makes you unable to remain in her heart the way she saw you before. Many women who were abused as young children are unable to feel safe around their husband. Sex takes on an entirely different meaning within marriage. You become a threat within her subconscious. Chances are she was abused by an adult family member or other trusted adult. Boyfriends and even a fiance are different. Sex can be carefree and easy. But when she gets married, her husband is now in that same scary group as her abuser(s), which is an adult male authority or family member.

My xw went from carefree enthusiastic sex while dating, to having great distress shortly before the wedding date. She would turn her head during sex. She'd want the lights out. She had to have a few drinks first. Of course, I had no idea what was the root cause since she had decided to never ever tell me about her CSA. And being a Nice Guy my response was ineffective in making any changes. I first blamed myself for having somehow done something which turned her off. The Nice Guy and CSA victim can get locked in with neither one being equipped to either fix it or end it.

For some women this is a factor leading to affairs. CSA is one of the top 3 factors correlating to infidelity. They remember the fun, the excitement, the carefree sex when single. They remember the feelings of power, acceptance, or social standing they got with sex. Now, in marriage, they feel great distress. It is definitely not fun. But when they find an AP all of the fun comes back. And they may fear leaving the marriage due to abandonment issues from their CSA, so they don't just pull the plug on the marriage. An asexual marriage may actually be quite happy for them.

You can't mitigate those dynamics by remaining the confident man you were while dating.


----------



## StillSearching

Thor said:


> With CSA it is likely unimportant that you remain the man she married. In many cases, simply being her husband _by definition_ makes you unable to remain in her heart the way she saw you before. Many women who were abused as young children are unable to feel safe around their husband. Sex takes on an entirely different meaning within marriage. You become a threat within her subconscious. Chances are she was abused by an adult family member or other trusted adult. Boyfriends and even a fiance are different. Sex can be carefree and easy. But when she gets married, her husband is now in that same scary group as her abuser(s), which is an adult male authority or family member.


*Many women who were abused as young children are unable to feel safe around their husband. Sex takes on an entirely different meaning within marriage. You become a threat within her subconscious. Chances are she was abused by an adult family member or other trusted adult. Boyfriends and even a fiance are different. Sex can be carefree and easy. But when she gets married, her husband is now in that same scary group as her abuser(s), which is an adult male authority or family member.*

BINGO! spot on. Thats why I wrote the disclaimer.
Not sure how much her abuse lead to sex with others, constant lying, screwing up reconciliation.


----------



## Quality

blueinbr said:


> Maybe your problem wasn't reconciliation in general but the way you did it, or failed to do it.
> 
> Your lessons to others should highlight what you and W did wrong, not that R is bad.
> 
> You made the right decision for you at the time.


Don't expect you'll get much feedback on this, he posted above he thinks he did reconciliation just fine since he's still married and they generally get along. 

There's a chance that maybe had he led her to repentance back in 2002 that this whole story could have had a different outcome but his wife supposedly has had several affairs with complete strangers and pretty much sounds like a totally unrepentant serial cheater that no one could have achieved recovery with in the first place {a fact that should have been ascertained 14 years ago within about a year of "trying"}.

Reconciliation will always lead to suffering and misery when one attempts to do it with someone incapable or unwilling to repent. I would and have advocated for divorce in such situations. 

These are sad stories and it's not really that alarming that these kind of posters come back years later to try to relieve their regret and resentment by telling others not to make the same mistakes they made and with blanket statements that recovery is impossible as if only their life experiences are true, accurate and valuable whereas others are merely posting out of pain and unhappiness despite insisting there is hope for many marriages and claiming recovery success.


The whole circular argument that all I do is insult people that don't agree with me while continuing to insult me and attack my credibility is getting comical now. 

I simply dispute and refute the agenda that everyone should divorce and true reconciliation doesn't exist. It is an inconvenient and obvious reality that many couples recover and I'm sorry that my recovery alone throws a wrench in the agenda of recovery denial and my posting about it is inconvenient for you guy. It's sad that you guys keep having to resort to personal insults and speculation to dispute anyone that stands against your agenda, whereas, my position accepts the possibility and REALITY of divorce OR reconciliation and I can have empathy for persons that need to or choose to divorce without having to deny their life experience at all. 

I've helped 100's of individuals and couples with recovery {and sometimes divorce}. I mostly do it in real life and on a private Christian forum. This is a place to discuss marriage and coping with infidelity. It's "talk", debate and the sharing of ideas and experiences as a community. It's not counseling or even coaching and there are far too many people with agendas of hopelessness {sometimes the same people in multiple identitis} where I see lots of hope in most situations.


----------



## StillSearching

Quality said:


> Don't expect you'll get much feedback on this, he posted above he thinks he did reconciliation just fine since he's still married and they generally get along.
> 
> *There's a chance that maybe had he led her to repentance back in 2002 that this whole story could have had a different outcome* The old horse to water here..
> but his wife supposedly has had *several affairs with complete strangers and pretty much sounds like a totally unrepentant * wrong. co workers and old friend....seems quite repentant as well.
> serial cheater that no one could have achieved recovery with in the first place {a fact that should have been ascertained 14 years ago within about a year of "trying"}.
> 
> *Reconciliation will always lead to suffering* TRUE.....* and misery when one attempts to do it with someone incapable *...no way of truly knowing this!.. I would and have advocated for divorce in such situations.


----------



## StillSearching

blueinbr said:


> Maybe your problem wasn't reconciliation in general but the way you did it, or failed to do it.
> 
> Your lessons to others should highlight what you and W did wrong, not that R is bad.
> 
> You made the right decision for you at the time.


Understandable.
The problem was not reconciliation. It's whats left.
My experience is that no marriage that goes through R really is great afterwards.
Best to start fresh with a new shot.


----------



## 225985

StillSearching said:


> Understandable.
> The problem was not reconciliation. It's whats left.
> My experience is that no marriage that goes through R really is great afterwards.
> Best to start fresh with a new shot.


Well, you only have one data point. Kind of a stretch to apply that to all marriages experiencing infidelity. Why not just say "R didn't work for me because ........."?

You never tried a "new shot" so you don't know that is best.


----------



## Quality

Repentance isn't just saying "I'm sorry" and no one would ever say "she/he SEEMS repentant". If she was repentant you'd have known it and I've helped 100's of betrayed husbands figure this out within a few months up to about a year of Dday. Unfortunately, repentance takes time, but it is unmistakable. A repentant person changes completely. They are transformed by the experience. 

I'm truly sorry you never got to experience that. I say that with all sincerity. I wish you had obtained proper guidance and instruction and figured this out 14-15 years ago. It is/was knowable and it's the absolute prerequisite to proper reconciliation. Lots of people stay in manageable marriages suffering quietly or bitterly with anger and resentment. This isn't ONLY a infidelity problem. It sounds like you did the best you could for you and your kids and sometimes, in such situations, I think staying for the kids, if there can be peace in the household IS actually best for the kids versus the situation in some states and countries with a man losing primary custody of his kids to a unrepentant serial cheater. But that was your choice and your son may have ended up in rehab either way.


----------



## StillSearching

blueinbr said:


> Well, you only have one data point. Kind of a stretch to apply that to all marriages experiencing infidelity. Why not just say "R didn't work for me because ........."?
> 
> You never tried a "new shot" so you don't know that is best.


Like I said before I was pro R. For about the first 3 years.
it's not just one point, its 50% of only 2. With many years of working through things.
ok then "R didn't work for me because it doesn't work." 
One reason I stayed was I thought a "new shot" what not going to be better....I don't know. 
I wish I had now.
How was your R?


----------



## tropicalbeachiwish

@StillSearching 

What is it that you're still searching for?


----------



## harrybrown

SS-

is she still cheating now?

has she ever shown remorse? Would she care if you had an A?

has she ever written a timeline of all her Affairs?

Hope she never gave you an std, just cut your heart out, threw it in the fire, and ate it.

Sorry.


----------



## StillSearching

Quality said:


> Repentance isn't just saying "I'm sorry" and no one would ever say "she/he SEEMS repentant". If she was repentant you'd have known it and I've helped 100's of betrayed husbands figure this out within a few months up to about a year of Dday. Unfortunately, repentance takes time, but it is unmistakable. A repentant person changes completely. They are transformed by the experience.
> 
> I'm truly sorry you never got to experience that. I say that with all sincerity. I wish you had obtained proper guidance and instruction and figured this out 14-15 years ago. It is/was knowable and it's the absolute prerequisite to proper reconciliation. Lots of people stay in manageable marriages suffering quietly or bitterly with anger and resentment. This isn't ONLY a infidelity problem. It sounds like you did the best you could for you and your kids and sometimes, in such situations, I think staying for the kids, if there can be peace in the household IS actually best for the kids versus the situation in some states and countries with a man losing primary custody of his kids to a unrepentant serial cheater. But that was your choice and your son may have ended up in rehab either way.


"You would have known" come on I'm not a Wizard. I don't believe in Wizards.
It's not all about the WW either. It's what was given, was all that was brought in. That my friend is the hardest part.
All the repentance in the world can't change that. 
I say any marriage that goes trough R at best is a manageable marriage. 

BTW i was at a Co dependency meeting with him. 
here I am still searching years later, going to meetings and forums.
WONDERFUL.


----------



## theDrifter

For some men, infidelity kills the relationship. Not always like it's shot dead on d-day, it's often more like they were stricken by a disease that, ultimately, their heart will succumb to. For these men, nothing their WW does means a thing. Heavy lifting, true remorse, transparency - none of it matters because their cheating flipped a bit for H and nothing can change that fact.

For those men who have been able to truly reconcile with their WW I say great - congratulations. I would ask these men to accept that there are other men who simply can never accept her cheating. Is that really so difficult to understand? Why do we argue about this? As contributors to this forum we provide feedback and advice based on our experiences. This never-ending debate on reconciliation as a concept helps no one.


----------



## StillSearching

harrybrown said:


> SS-
> 
> *is she still cheating now?* No. But one can never really know. Your Quality Wizards might know.
> 
> *has she ever shown remorse? *YES *Would she care if you had an A?* care?? probably. She tells me I should. It's weird, but not to out of line for some WW.
> 
> *has she ever written a timeline of all her Affairs?* Not that I know of. I'd like to see it. Maybe it would help me.
> 
> Hope she never gave you an std, just cut your heart out, threw it in the fire, and ate it.
> 
> Sorry.


----------



## StillSearching

tropicalbeachiwish said:


> @StillSearching
> 
> What is it that you're still searching for?


Good one.
Happiness I guess. 
Time machine.
The TRUTH!


----------



## GusPolinski

StillSearching said:


> Good one.
> Happiness I guess.
> Time machine.
> The TRUTH!


One you'll never get.

The other two you'll never get _from or with your wife_.


----------



## Quality

StillSearching said:


> "You would have known" come on I'm not a Wizard. I don't believe in Wizards.
> It's not all about the WW either. It's what was given, was all that was brought in. That my friend is the hardest part.
> All the repentance in the world can't change that.
> I say any marriage that goes trough R at best is a manageable marriage.
> 
> BTW i was at a Co dependency meeting with him.
> here I am still searching years later, going to meetings and forums.
> WONDERFUL.


You don't have to be a wizard to recognize when someone has received and experienced the gift of repentance and even when they do, you're still not required to reconcile with them. But it is "wizardly" to extrapolate your individual life experience with your unrepentant wife unto the every wayward spouse in the world deeming them all entirely unworthy and unredeemable.

I'll concede that getting into that top 20% of successful marriages is made even more difficult and unlikely due to infidelity but I've experienced it and seen it happen elsewhere ~ often. Often it's similar to people experiencing life completely different after having had a near death experience, sometimes reconciliations thrive in spite of the adultery in a "what satan weaves, God reweaves" type manner. 


One thing I know never works: conflict avoidance ~ this is what 15 years of conflict avoidance looks like. I'm guessing your wife has pretty much no idea you're this miserable and resentful of her. If she were repentant she'd know, but the wayward mindset never left her and she dances through life denying, avoiding {and probably drowning in alcohol/drugs} any and all negative thoughts and feelings. I don't blame you and it's not your fault. I just understand and offer you my genuine sympathy. Had my wife not repented, I hope I wouldn't have taken your path of least resistance and conflict avoidance. Fortunate was I but I don't hold my gratitude over your struggles. We do the best we can and you HOPED for more. Hope didn't let you down, your wife did.


----------



## jlg07

Stillsearching, just curious - what AT THE TIME was your thought process that made you decide to stay married and do R? I think that may help a bunch of folks in similar situations. 
For instance, without her fully telling you the truth, how did you justify getting past that? Once you discovered the second or third time, again, how did you justify? If it was just for the kids, weren't you worried about showing them how relationships should be using this as an example? They would only know this type of bad relationship and weren't you worried that it would damage THEIR future relationships (not trying to "ding" you at all -- I'm just curious that now that you look back, what was your mindset/thought processes back then...)

If your kids are all in college now, did you ever tell them of their mothers' infidelity? 
Has she continued to stray during the marriage (even now)? Now that your children are grown, what is you r CURRENT thoughts around why you stay?


----------



## Taxman

I don't know how you have done this throughout the years. Fifteen years is a long time to live a lie. If I were you, I would want a modicum of happiness for my later years. The kids are out, and she has lived with no consequences to her actions before and after d-day. I would also want her to have some of the pain and anguish she has put you through for the last 15 years. To that end, I would have the business evaluated, and either she buys you out, you buy her out or you sell outright. Just after the sale, I would hand her divorce papers. Even in your 60's there are a lot of women around who will not betray you. Who will not make excuses to go out and give it up to other men. I believe that your wife has played you for the last 15. Sure she may not be sleeping with other men now, but the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Since you were blindsided by her affairs, and then when she promised not to, she went ahead, and betrayed you again. Does that not tell you what you are worth to her? Right now, all you are is half her business. I would blindside her, like she did to you. I would want her in the gutter wondering what the hell just happened. I would then tell her that it's payback time. Maybe she can find the OM all over again. Likely she will just be a used up old w**re. 

Frankly, I can be an angry individual. My anger would have her walking around your hometown with a scarlet A tattooed to her forehead. All alone with nobody. That would be justice.


----------



## StillSearching

jlg07 said:


> Stillsearching, just curious - what AT THE TIME was your thought process that made you decide to stay married and do R? I think that may help a bunch of folks in similar situations. *Well it was to R and have a stronger marriage like i was told would happen*
> For instance, without her fully telling you the truth, how did you justify getting past that? *I will never believe a WW comes completely clean. You shouldn't either.* Once you discovered the second or third time, again, how did you justify? *It was much later in the marriage, and business was taking off. maybe apathy* If it was just for the kids, weren't you worried about showing them how relationships should be using this as an example? *It was also to show then that things can be repaired *They would only know this type of bad relationship and weren't you worried that it would damage THEIR future relationships (not trying to "ding" you at all -- I'm just curious that now that you look back, what was your mindset/thought processes back then...) *No I was not. I know the stats on single mothers raising kids and I didn't want to expose them to other sexual partners that might come by. That would be worse*
> 
> If your kids are all in college now, did you ever tell them of their mothers' infidelity? *She had tell them. I was a mess and they wanted to know why.*
> Has she continued to stray during the marriage (even now)? yes a couple more times. Now? only wizards could know. Now that your children are grown, what is you r CURRENT thoughts around why you stay?* We have a good relationship. I'm not willing to kill the business over it*.


----------



## StillSearching

Taxman said:


> I don't know how you have done this throughout the years. Fifteen years is a long time to live a lie. If I were you, I would want a modicum of happiness for my later years. The kids are out, and she has lived with no consequences to her actions before and after d-day. I would also want her to have some of the pain and anguish she has put you through for the last 15 years. To that end, I would have the business evaluated, and either she buys you out, you buy her out or you sell outright. Just after the sale, I would hand her divorce papers. Even in your 60's there are a lot of women around who will not betray you. Who will not make excuses to go out and give it up to other men. I believe that your wife has played you for the last 15. Sure she may not be sleeping with other men now, but the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Since you were blindsided by her affairs, and then when she promised not to, she went ahead, and betrayed you again. Does that not tell you what you are worth to her? Right now, all you are is half her business. I would blindside her, like she did to you. I would want her in the gutter wondering what the hell just happened. I would then tell her that it's payback time. Maybe she can find the OM all over again. Likely she will just be a used up old w**re.
> 
> Frankly, I can be an angry individual. My anger would have her walking around your hometown with a scarlet A tattooed to her forehead. All alone with nobody. That would be justice.


You said a mouthful there! wow


----------



## Bremik

Do you think if somehow you could be convinced she told you everything 14 yrs ago or even now would that have changed anything? Your sex life has never wavered? On sex alone you would say things are fine to great?


----------



## Taxman

It is a lot to take in, but you would not be here if something was not burning in your heart and soul. I do taxes for one couple very much like you and your wife. He cracked this year. It was long and slow and it put him on a psych ward. She never owned up to what she did to him. But it galled him.

When it all came out in group therapy, he had 10 people tell him that her attitude was the same as if she had been abusing him all of these years. It was quite the scene when she visited him. Most every member of the group had something to say to her, none of it good. The divorce will be final in a year. He came to me alone this year, his STBX went to a my business partner(she won't find much sympathy there either-my partner is a very no nonsense woman, who will put her in her place PFQ)


----------



## Hope1964

I am 7 years past D day, still with my hubby, and man, I cannot even fathom why you stayed. I cannot fathom why you're still there. Your definition of a 'good' relationship must be vastly different than mine.


----------



## honcho

Have the two of you discussed divorce at all recently? Would the two of you be able to run the business successfully still together in the business yet divorce. I have a couple of business acquaintance's that have family businesses that have managed to divorce yet still work together and keep the business thriving. 

When you started this business you already had known about her affair. Why didn't you consider some sort of post nup agreement before bringing her into the business?


----------



## 225985

StillSearching said:


> How was your R?




My wife never cheated.


----------



## StillSearching

bremik said:


> Do you think if somehow you could be convinced she told you everything 14 yrs ago or even now would that have changed anything? Your sex life has never wavered? On sex alone you would say things are fine to great?


I was convinced 15 years ago in MC. No not now it's more than the truth you need. What was given away does too much damage to make things good again.
Nope sex life never wavered. But past abuse, I believe keep it from being what it could have been.
I would say things are fine. Never great.


----------



## StillSearching

honcho said:


> Have the two of you discussed divorce at all recently? Would the two of you be able to run the business successfully still together in the business yet divorce. I have a couple of business acquaintance's that have family businesses that have managed to divorce yet still work together and keep the business thriving.
> 
> When you started this business you already had known about her affair. Why didn't you consider some sort of post nup agreement before bringing her into the business?


Yes we have discussed it about 8 months ago.
Well I went into it as primary majority owner. It's in my name. I run business side and she programs. Without either one of us a large income evaporates. 
At this time in my life it would very hard to loose but doable. One thing I've learned is having money does not equate to happiness.


----------



## StillSearching

blueinbr said:


> My wife never cheated.


Man what I would do for that. Sometimes I wonder if it would have been best to never have known about any of it. 
But that's frivolous, it's not my reality.


----------



## BURNT KEP

Why is it that money is so important to you? And why can't a business survive a divorce? You seem content not happy and it's your life and we only get one don't you think you deserve better.


----------



## 225985

.


----------



## StillSearching

BURNT KEP said:


> Why is it that money is so important to you? And why can't a business survive a divorce? You seem content not happy and it's your life and we only get one don't you think you deserve better.


Money is important to most everyone. I think it more of a lifestyle change at my age. Wealth is a complex problem. It would be one hellava hit.
My business could not survive a divorce.
I am content and happy most times, but there always darkness in the background I guess. Yes I deserve better.


----------



## Thor

StillSearching said:


> I know the stats on single mothers raising kids and I didn't want to expose them to other sexual partners that might come by. That would be worse


I made the same calculation when my daughters were pre-school age. Ironically, xw probably would never have had another man in the house with the girls due to her CSA. Other women I know irl who are CSA victims similarly won't have a man in the house with their minor children. Had I known of her CSA, I would have made many different choices over the years.


----------



## TAMAT

Stillsearching,

One approach to the polygraph is to first have your WW write out a detailed timeline for her affairs, and for you to write out an exhaustive list of questions she can then write in the answers to. The writing avoids having to answer face to face.

The polygraph operator then asks if she answered the questions and wrote out the timeline truthfully.

You might also find out about other sexual incidents.

Did you ever confront the OM or expose them, it's never too late, what were the consequences for her OM? The thing about these OM is that they knew full well about your children and were attacking your family.

Did your WW ever apologize to the wives or gfs of the people she cheated with.

I'm waiting for my youngest to graduate college, it's been 20+ years.

Tamat


----------



## StillSearching

TAMAT said:


> Stillsearching,
> 
> One approach to the polygraph is to first have your WW write out a detailed timeline for her affairs, and for you to write out an exhaustive list of questions she can then write in the answers to. The writing avoids having to answer face to face.
> 
> The polygraph operator then asks if she answered the questions and wrote out the timeline truthfully.
> 
> You might also find out about other sexual incidents.
> 
> Did you ever confront the OM or expose them, it's never too late, what were the consequences for her OM? The thing about these OM is that they knew full well about your children and were attacking your family.
> 
> Did your WW ever apologize to the wives or gfs of the people she cheated with.
> 
> I confronted the OM.
> They were no wives involved.
> Dude to bring up a poly at this time is a huge fight and instadivorce
> 
> I'm waiting for my youngest to graduate college, it's been 20+ years.
> 
> Tamat


----------



## sokillme

One more thing that has not been said OP. With her mindset there is no guarantee that you or your money is safe. She may just find some other guy and decide he is her soulmate, and destroy your business outright. God knows there are stories where the WW does this all the time. They just completely go off the reservation. People like her do that kind of unpredictable stuff and she has never shown you any loyalty. 

Lets imagine since it's in her nature her next affair partner is divorced, has some money, and lives in some nice sunny place 200 miles away. One day she tells you she isn't happy, she loves you but is not in love with you and up and moves there a week or two later. What happens to your business then? No buy out, no amicable separation. No StillSearching running the process and having agency in his own life. Nope just once again you getting screwed over and having all the same emotions stirred up again from 15 years ago. Stuck there feeling like a sucker. I would say the chances of that happening are pretty good. Hell she may even try to get the most money out of you as possible. You have no idea what she is capable of. 

You are like the guy living in the house with the pet tiger. Sooner or later it's going to eat you. Your fear and passivity is going to end up biting you in the ass again. Better to finally start taking an active role in your life and happiness. You can't blame anyone for you not taking command of your own life. If you don't do for yourself, life and people will do things to you. 

I would be more afraid that I wasn't safe with her then I wasn't without her.


----------



## Taxman

SoKillMe
I could not have said it better. She is not a wife, and he has proven that he can be thrown over at a moment's notice. At the end of the day, some dude will wave his d**k in her face and she will blow up StillSearching's world and finances.


----------



## stillthinking

What kind of programming does your WW do?

Is it something that you could hire someone else to do?


----------



## StillSearching

Wow you guys have really opened my eyes up today. Maybe the real reason I came here was to hear these things. I knew if I came back here gave it a shot deep down I might get more wisdom than I could give.....


----------



## StillSearching

stillthinking said:


> What kind of programming does your WW do?
> 
> Is it something that you could hire someone else to do?


Extremely specialized and why it's so valuable.

I tried a couple years back. No luck.


----------



## sokillme

StillSearching said:


> Extremely specialized and why it's so valuable.
> 
> I tried a couple years back. No luck.


So she does the work and you are her contracting agent? Sounds like she is more valuable to the business then you are. She is the one with the specialized skill. If I were you I would hire some more programmers and branch out. Get some right out of school and hungry. In the process have them train on some of your wife's skills. You not at all as secure as you think you are. You need to diversify your business and your life.


----------



## commonsenseisn't

You would be wise to assess all the different ways you are dependent upon her in the business, household, whatever, and then discretely work on weaning yourself off her. Independence from her is a nice insurance policy in your case. Also, by making her theoretically dispensable you shift the balance of power between you two which might also serve to improve your relationship if you stay together. Either way you will benefit.


----------



## azteca1986

Quality said:


> The evidence suggests that the OP appears to be riverrat.


Totally out of line. No need to disparage two posters just because you don't agree with their choices or opinions.



Quality said:


> *Most marriages reconcile* and, more often than not, the next person to actually have an affair is the betrayed spouse.


This is nonsense, isn't it? 



Quality said:


> I'll concede that getting into that top 20% of successful marriages is made even more difficult and unlikely due to infidelity but I've experienced it and seen it happen elsewhere ~ often.


Errm... no. The "top 20% of successful marriages" do not include - Wife enjoyed getting banged by her OM for a period. I'll concede that by your own modest assessment, that you may have a top 20% successfully reconciled from infidelity marriages.


----------



## TAMAT

StillSearching

What is your WWs attitude now towards the OM, does she feel used by them or does she still have a good opinion of them.

My W's continued good opinion of OM-1 has been one factor which keeps me from recovering. I think she believes he is a good guy for dumping her.

When you said you don't have the full story did she at least give you the sexual details or did she leave your mind to wander. My W has indicated she will never tell me those.

You should force the polygraph or divorce. Having your WW maintaining secrets and intimacies you are not privy to with other people is no way to live.

Tamat


----------



## Quality

azteca1986 said:


> Totally out of line. No need to disparage two posters just because you don't agree with their choices or opinions.


Talk about nonsense. How exactly is it disparaging two posters. It's either riverrat or it's not. Read riverrat and compare it to the facts of this story ~~~ as we were reading them ~~~ they were pretty dead on to riverrat's story. Many new differentiating facts were only introduced after JohnA noticed the similarities {not saying that proves anything}. Further, this poster SAID he posted here before and JohnA and I were just trying to help him out remembering his name. It was apparent he didn't post on TAM previously since TAM didn't exist in 2002. Appears that was a mistake and he must have posted somewhere else. But it's not a reach to think he may have meant around 2012 when Riverrat registered versus 2002. Also, riverrat posted at least once that he was being purposefully obtuse on this forum about some of the facts of his supposed situation to protect his own identity. All that said, I'm no mod so what do I know. 




azteca1986 said:


> This is nonsense, isn't it?


The internet isn't real life. My observations in real life {there aren't any accurate numbers anywhere in the field of infidelity so all we/anyone can rely on is best guesses} ~~~ revenge affairs alone happen in so many situations, that they alone probably make up somewhere between 25%-40% of the 51% I need to validate my estimation that a majority of the time in recovering marriages the betrayed spouse is the next one to cheat. Further, I tend to work exclusively with Christians so once the wayward is given the gift of repentance and they're forgiven and sanctified by their spouse, I find them to be A LOT less likely to step into that infidelity pit of despair ever again (not that they never do ~ they're certainly capable of it} whereas their betrayed spouses are much more vulnerable to an attack by satan and they'll likely soon be tempted and tested with someone whispering in their ears telling them "they deserve better" and/or that they will feel a lot better after they've evened the playing field. They'll need to be doubly on guard of their mind playing tricks on them when temptation arises. Heck, lots of waywards even encourage their spouse to commit adultery to relieve their own guilt. Really it's a consequence of adultery. I don't make this estimation with sympathy towards the wayward spouses, but rather, typically, I make it to the wayward spouse that they need to get their butts on board with a real recovery and discovering the gift of repentance sooner than later BEFORE their betrayed spouse ends up cheating on them. It's not inevitable {we all have choices}, but when you spend too much time in the mud with an unrepentant wayward, often you'll end up acting like a pig. 



azteca1986 said:


> Errm... no. The "top 20% of successful marriages" do not include - Wife enjoyed getting banged by her OM for a period. I'll concede that by your own modest assessment, that you may have a top 20% successfully reconciled from infidelity marriages.


 Disparage much?


----------



## azteca1986

Quality said:


> Talk about nonsense. How exactly is it disparaging two posters. It's either riverrat or it's not.


If it's not, then you're disparaging both posters. Their cadence and writing style are completely different. Two different parts of the US, I'd hazard.


> Read riverrat and compare it to the facts of this story ~~~ as we were reading them ~~~ they were pretty dead on to riverrat's story.


We must have different definitions of "dead on". riverrat's WW had one affair, many years ago.


StillSearching said:


> Did she do it again? yes 3 different times. Different men. And I was a hawk watching.


OP's situation is different. Your Clouseau schtick needs some work.


> The internet isn't real life. My observations in real life {there aren't any accurate numbers anywhere in the field of infidelity so all we/anyone can rely on is best guesses} ~~~


Then perhaps you find the humility to include the caveat "In my experience..." instead of making disingenuous statements.



> Disparage much?


Happy to. Crowing about your supposed top 20% marriage doesn't to help the OP. You needed a reality check. You're happy with your choices; OP regrets his. That's his prerogative. This forum used to be better before new posters arrived to relentlessly push their agendas (whether to R or D).


----------



## MattMatt

MODERATOR NOTICE:-

Whenever you suspect a fellow member is not a legitimate poster, is a troll, a spammer or has multiple accounts, please do not call them out on the forum.

Please use the report icon which is the ! point within the triangle which is on the left of every post on TAM.


----------



## StillSearching

TAMAT said:


> StillSearching
> 
> *What is your WWs attitude now towards the OM, does she feel used by them or does she still have a good opinion of them.* I'm sure she does feel used. We don't talk about it.
> 
> My W's continued good opinion of OM-1 has been one factor which keeps me from recovering. I think she believes he is a good guy for dumping her.
> 
> *When you said you don't have the full story did she at least give you the sexual details or did she leave your mind to wander. My W has indicated she will never tell me those.
> *Very few sexual details. Trickled ( I won't say Trickle Truth because I'm not sure it is) details to me over 10 years or so.
> *You should force the polygraph or divorce. Having your WW maintaining secrets and intimacies you are not privy to with other people is no way to live.
> * I know..probably why i'm here.
> Tamat


----------



## StillSearching

MattMatt said:


> MODERATOR NOTICE:-
> 
> Whenever you suspect a fellow member is not a legitimate poster, is a troll, a spammer or has multiple accounts, please do not call them out on the forum.
> 
> Please use the report icon which is the ! point within the triangle which is on the left of every post on TAM.


I'm real.


----------



## StillSearching

I did post here somewhere around 2007-08 under a different account which I have since forgot. I was run off because my story was to crazy no one believed it. 
But I do appreciate you peoples insight. 
I am just looking to help and get advice, or maybe courage to leave.


----------



## Bremik

It still seems you are unhappy. So are you still ultimately questioning your decision to stay? The comment with wife still having positive thoughts toward OM really hits home for me- how can anyone have any positive thought towards someone or something that has all but destroyed the marriage they had and most likely permanently tainted the relationship forever if it does continue?

So if I am correct- you don't hate her, between the sex and your general ability to get along on a day to day basis as well as work together, you don't mind being with her in general. HOWEVER, the lost trust that hasn't been restored and lack of complete R basically is like a cancer to the relationship that you just deal with but don't like? It's a wall you can't get past and now in hindsight you wish you never tried because with that 20/20 hindsight vision you realize you would have been better off?


----------



## StillSearching

bremik said:


> It still seems you are unhappy. So are you still ultimately questioning your decision to stay? The comment with wife still having positive thoughts toward OM really hits home for me- how can anyone have any positive thought towards someone or something that has all but destroyed the marriage they had and most likely permanently tainted the relationship forever if it does continue?* I'm not sure how she actually feels about OM. I don't talk about it.
> *
> So if I am correct- you don't hate her, between the sex and your general ability to get along on a day to day basis as well as work together, you don't mind being with her in general. HOWEVER, the lost trust that hasn't been restored and lack of complete R basically is *like a cancer to the relationship* that you just deal with but don't like? It's a wall you can't get past and now in *hindsight you wish you never tried* because with that 20/20 hindsight vision you realize you would have been better off?


You are dead on brother!


----------



## azteca1986

StillSearching said:


> I am just looking to help and get advice, or maybe courage to leave.


I don't get the sense that you want to leave. Your situation was worse in the past, but now you seemed to have plateaued to a point where your marriage is not intolerable.

Is there anything you would like to see from your wife at this stage?

Is it an acknowledgement of what she did to the marriage?
Would you like her to come clean about everything that has passed?
You say you don't talk about it. Is it that it's just all water under the bridge? 
Is she defensive?
Or Dismissive?


----------



## Bremik

Your kids and other family members all know. For me that is still one of my biggest hang ups is nobody knows and it makes it even harder due to the shock value of doing something now. You have that out of the way and doubtful anyone would fault you for leaving now. Don't you think you are still too dependent on something from her? Your still unhappy, everybody knows, you still have opportunity to find someone to be happy with the rest of your life. What keeps you? 

I realize the business is a factor, and in my case ours would also shut down with debt, but does that mean you put less value in your happiness than the success of the business? It seems like you still have enough attachment to your wife that it is the real problem. Almost like an addiction, you know "drinking" gets you in trouble and makes you hurt but you just can't quit. I understand your pain and face the same realities after 25yrs of marriage.


----------



## WasDecimated

StillSearching, 

I won’t question your reasons for staying. I almost did the same thing. It was a tough decision…toughest of my life. My XWW cheated on me between 2009 and 2011. After D day, I stayed with her for over a year until I came to the realization that I couldn’t spend the rest of my life living like that. She was a constant reminder of that 1 ½ years of lying and cheating. I knew I would never forgive, forget or trust her completely again. She wasn’t making it any easier with her apathetic, non-remorseful attitude. She just wasn’t willing to put in the effort I needed to R with any success. I think she was willing to stay as long as I rug-swept the whole thing and did all the work. I took everything into careful consideration, before pulling the plug…our children, my income/lifestyle, investments, alimony, child support…etc. It was a tough decision but I filed and kicked her out. 

I have been divorced for over 4 years now. Do I think I made the right decision? Yes, but that doesn’t make it any easier. I have often read about the awesome and liberating lives people have after they divorce their WS’s. That has not been my experience. I work full time and pay a lot of alimony. My son lives with me 100% and my daughter is with me about 70% of the time. Raising 2 teenagers doesn’t leave much time for dating and living it up. At my age, there doesn't seem to be much out there anyway. Sometimes I feel sad. Financially I’m doing OK and when alimony stops next year, I’ll be doing great. 

I do admit to occasionally wondering what it would have been like if I would have stayed married to her. I’m sure I would have been miserable to a great extent. In the end, it was a double edged sword. It was going to cut either way. I chose the way that was the best for re-growing my confidence and self-esteem. I hope, in the long run, I've made the right choice.

I do appreciate you checking in here and giving us your honest assessment and opinion of life after your WW’s betrayal.


----------



## Quality

StillSearching said:


> I did post here somewhere around 2007-08 under a different account which I have since forgot. I was run off because my story was to crazy no one believed it.
> But I do appreciate you peoples insight.
> I am just looking to help and get advice, or maybe courage to leave.



I hope this doesn't get me in trouble because I'm not accusing you of anything ~~~ just want to ask if maybe your posting name was Mr. Brains???

I only read the first post and it had the same dday that was discovered after noticing "marks all over your wife" and multiple affairs.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/76161-how-infidelity-changed-my-life.html

If it is, maybe the mods can merge your identities if you want.

Edit to Add: Assuming you're MrBrains: if my wife was mentally ill and we had three young children at home and I couldn't build an airtight case for full-custody {enough custody to allow me to move far away and at the very most make her crazy vacation mom for a few weeks every year) ~~ I'd have likely stayed for the kids to protect them to the extent I could through their youth. I commend you for it. It's a tough call but there's no way you could know at that time that her lack of impulse control, despite being monitored would lead to several more affairs and that she would refuse medication/treatment. I can only imagine how bad things would have been had you left her to behave any way her impulses took her. You DID know {or figure out} she wasn't well and many people might say your vows of "in sickness and in health" kind of obligate you to look after her {especially considering you were 29 and she was still a teenager when you met her and married her a year or so later}. Promiscuity is a symptom of most mental illnesses. On the other hand, adultery was your way out biblical despite her mental illness so you're free to re-contemplate the issues today, now that the kids are all out of the house, any way you want. I think you should divorce now before there are grandkids around pulling those same sympathies and fears out of you but it's your call but making this recovery great or good was never in the cards when the wayward doesn't have the capacity to control themselves.


----------



## Quality

bremik said:


> Your kids and other family members all know. For me that is still one of my biggest hang ups is nobody knows and it makes it even harder due to the shock value of doing something now. You have that out of the way and doubtful anyone would fault you for leaving now. Don't you think you are still too dependent on something from her? Your still unhappy, everybody knows, you still have opportunity to find someone to be happy with the rest of your life. What keeps you?


I've spent time with another recovered couple working in the marriage ministry that sat their children down on a big family vacation celebrating their 25th Wedding Anniversary where they shared their testimony about the affair, repentance and forgiveness with their entire family. The former wayward wife just felt there was no way that her children were not going to be aware of exactly what their father had done for their family in granting her forgiveness. It also enabled them to be like us and much more open in the ministry since there wasn't this big secret that still needed to be kept. 

Secrets divide and kill families. They model hiding and swallowing shame versus overcoming shame. They model appearances matter more than reality.

@bremik I'd encourage you to be real with your kids and family and share the story. Your wife can come along for the ride or not but you don't have to keep YOUR LIFE a secret from your loved ones any more.


----------



## becareful2

StillSearching said:


> Dude to bring up a poly at this time is a huge fight and instadivorce


It is sad and at the same time frustrating to see a grown man so afraid of his wife. What I've learned from the ladies on TAM is that women want to respect their men. There's no way that your wife has much respect for you if you're this afraid of her. There has been no consequences for her betrayal and I think anyone here will tell you that she isn't even close to being genuinely remorseful. She has pretty much forced you to rug-sweep everything and you have obliged.


----------



## jlg07

StillSearching said:


> Yes we have discussed it about 8 months ago.
> Well I went into it as primary majority owner. It's in my name. I run business side and she programs. Without either one of us a large income evaporates.
> At this time in my life it would very hard to loose but doable. One thing I've learned is having money does not equate to happiness.


You know you CAN hire new programmers. There are quite a few out there in the market....

EDIT: I do see that you tried but I would venture the market has changed since. You are running a huge risk for your business relying only on her.


----------



## StillSearching

Quality said:


> StillSearching said:
> 
> 
> 
> I did post here somewhere around 2007-08 under a different account which I have since forgot. I was run off because my story was to crazy no one believed it.
> But I do appreciate you peoples insight.
> I am just looking to help and get advice, or maybe courage to leave.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope this doesn't get me in trouble because I'm not accusing you of anything ~~~ just want to ask if maybe your posting name was Mr. Brains???
> 
> I only read the first post and it had the same dday that was discovered after noticing "marks all over your wife" and multiple affairs.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/76161-how-infidelity-changed-my-life.html
> 
> If it is, maybe the mods can merge your identities if you want.
> 
> Edit to Add: Assuming you're MrBrains: if my wife was mentally ill and we had three young children at home and I couldn't build an airtight case for full-custody {enough custody to allow me to move far away and at the very most make her crazy vacation mom for a few weeks every year) ~~ I'd have likely stayed for the kids to protect them to the extent I could through their youth. I commend you for it. It's a tough call but there's no way you could know at that time that her lack of impulse control, despite being monitored would lead to several more affairs and that she would refuse medication/treatment. I can only imagine how bad things would have been had you left her to behave any way her impulses took her. You DID know {or figure out} she wasn't well and many people might say your vows of "in sickness and in health" kind of obligate you to look after her {especially considering you were 29 and she was still a teenager when you met her and married her a year or so later}. Promiscuity is a symptom of most mental illnesses. On the other hand, adultery was your way out biblical despite her mental illness so you're free to re-contemplate the issues today, now that the kids are all out of the house, any way you want. I think you should divorce now before there are grandkids around pulling those same sympathies and fears out of you but it's your call but making this recovery great or good was never in the cards when the wayward doesn't have the capacity to control themselves.
Click to expand...

That's me! That's a name I used to use!
Thanks. 
I didn't want to go into all the issues because the more I go into the less people tend to believe you.


----------



## Quality

StillSearching said:


> That's me! That's a name I used to use!
> Thanks.
> I didn't want to go into all the issues because the more I go into the less people tend to believe you.


Sorry, but all the talk of having posted here before this forum even existed, saying your story was so unbelievable you couldn't even tell us everything and you'd been banned as unbelievable before actually, itself, had me "tending to not believe you". I just don't think true stories have to be sold as true ~ they just are. Also, your MrBrains identity may have been temporarily suspended, but it doesn't appear "banned" now and it was just a few years ago. It also appears the two identities of yours I found at marriagebuilders remain active and didn't really notice anyone disbelieving your story. You registered the first time at the marriagebuilders forum on Jan 9th, 2002 {the day before your d-day} and everything you posted here and there has been very consistent, so if you are pulling anyone's leg ~~ you'd deserve a medal for persistence. 


Sorry I gave you a hard time. You did the best you could and I'd have probably stayed in your situation as well just to keep my children as safe as possible. Has your wife ever been diagnosed by a psychiatrist? Is she manic depressive or cyclomanic?


----------



## Bibi1031

StillSearching said:


> I wanted to live with my children. Raise them. They are doing very well.
> Now keep in mind there are many reasons I told myself it is worth staying.
> A lot of BSs might do so as well.


Yes @Fairchild comes to mind. It's a miserable life, a living self imposed hell.


----------



## OnTheRocks

You say in your 2013 thread that you are not bitter, and are a little arrogant about it if I'm honest. Do you still feel this way?


----------



## StillSearching

Quality said:


> Sorry, but all the talk of having posted here before this forum even existed, saying your story was so unbelievable you couldn't even tell us everything and you'd been banned as unbelievable before actually, itself, had me "tending to not believe you". I just don't think true stories have to be sold as true ~ they just are. Also, your MrBrains identity may have been temporarily suspended, but it doesn't appear "banned" now and it was just a few years ago. It also appears the two identities of yours I found at marriagebuilders remain active and didn't really notice anyone disbelieving your story. You registered the first time at the marriagebuilders forum on Jan 9th, 2002 {the day before your d-day} and everything you posted here and there has been very consistent, so if you are pulling anyone's leg ~~ you'd deserve a medal for persistence.
> 
> 
> Sorry I gave you a hard time. You did the best you could and I'd have probably stayed in your situation as well just to keep my children as safe as possible. Has your wife ever been diagnosed by a psychiatrist? Is she manic depressive or cyclomanic?


Wow..you did your homework. I must have got MB and TAM mixed up a bit.
It's all real and quite a maelstrom I've been living in.
So sounds like my real D-Day is one day before I remember. 
Yes she has been diagnosed by a Dr.
Bi-polar and depression. But she never told the guy about affairs or extent of sexual abuse.
I'm sure there's more going on.

She blew up at me last night because she said she wanted to quit her part time job.
I Just asked her "What does that mean for us?"
She said "that means we won't have an extra ****.** a month"
I said "But what does that mean for us?" 
She said "if your talking about sleeping in your room and sex, I'm not commenting on that. I don't want you hanging anything over my head in 5 months!!"
my confidence to leave has gone way up since I came back here.


----------



## StillSearching

OnTheRocks said:


> You say in your 2013 thread that you are not bitter, and are a little arrogant about it if I'm honest. Do you still feel this way?


YES


----------



## StillSearching

becareful2 said:


> It is sad and at the same time frustrating to see a grown man so afraid of his wife. What I've learned from the ladies on TAM is that women want to respect their men. There's no way that your wife has much respect for you if you're this afraid of her. There has been no consequences for her betrayal and I think anyone here will tell you that she isn't even close to being genuinely remorseful. She has pretty much forced you to rug-sweep everything and you have obliged.


I'm not afraid of my wife.


----------



## Taxman

So I have read your old thread. I do not know what possessed you to not take your kids and leave back then. What I hear now is someone who is sick and tired of living his life without love, respect or passion. By all means sir, cut this cancer out of your life. I'm positive you can find a buyer for the business. Make it a package deal with her included. Take your profits, go somewhere and find someone nice. You owe it to yourself.


----------



## 10th Engineer Harrison

StillSearching said:


> I challenge you to remember every forum to logged into 15 years ago looking for answers.
> I'm not in the relationship business I'm in the software business.
> Reconciliation could lead one to where I am.


I bet he could do that. Some people are more addicted to infidelity fora than others. 

-10th Engineer Harrison


----------



## Bibi1031

StillSearching said:


> my confidence to leave has gone way up since I came back here.


Well Dear Lord it's about time man!

Your children are older. They will pick you to live with. Exposing your wife's shenanigans is the best thing you can do. One thing is to be ill and use that to your advantage. Another is to allow an illness as an excuse to create such damage and chaos to your loved ones. 

I lived with a non diagnosed Bi-polar husband for 21 years. He was distant and a horrible partner at times. He didn't cheat for 20 years. At midlife he came unglued. The cheating was the last straw for me. 

I have a daughter with Bi-polar disorder. She cheated on her husband when my grand daughter was not even 6 months old. She cheated on her husband for 1.5 years. The illness doesn't excuse her cheating, but she wanted to tell him to ease her guilt. I suggested she needed IC to help her deal with Her mistakes. He would not be able to help her. He would dump her and rightfully so. He worships the ground she walks on. He adored his child. She was going to kill all that just because she wanted to ease her guilt. 

They don't think like normal people. Your wife is no different and she will not get better, she will get worse. Has she truly and honestly seeked professional help?

My daughter has been in therapy on and off since she was 19, and takes meds for her disorder. She is 30 now. She turned her life around and adores her husband (for now). She made a terrible mistake and saw this about 8 months into therapy. She owned all of it. They have two girls now. I wanted with all my heart for her not to bring anymore kids into this world as I don't trust her without professional help. 

I watch her like a hawk and I will NEVER trust her or sadly live without fear (I am just waiting for the other shoe to drop, I just don't know when). Her husband on the other hand, never has noticed anything at all. His rose colored glasses are firmly in place and I don't think they will come off unless she flat out slips again and he catches her in the act. Sadly, he is that trusting. I can't believe it and I know it is not fair for him, but I love my grand daughters and my own daughter. When I notice is she particularly mean and acting crazy I used to call her on that and she would get furious at me telling me she wasn't bi-polar. That it was only a temporary thing. I argued with her that she needed a doctor to state that in writing. I of course was called crazy and that I was meddling into things that were none of my business. I was not allowed in their home for several months because he blindly took her side. 

It hurts me to know all this and keep my mouth shut. I like you, fear that if my daughter keeps the girls, which in our state she probably will, she will come unglued and the girls will suffer more living with mom than with mom and dad. She says she loves her girls, but I don't see it. I know he adores them though. His actions show it. 

I remember one day when my first grand child was about 4 months old and daughter was exhausted she asked me if I had ever thought of getting rid of her or her brother at anytime in my life. She said she was sometimes so tired that all she saw was that as the only way to be free. I was scared ****less with that remark. I said never and the fear in my look was evident. She looked at me and said, "it was just a thought mother. I love my baby and would never hurt her."

I am not so sure about that. I will never forget that remark. She has never said anything like that ever since. I think she was overwhelmed about being a mother, working full time and of course she was probably having or starting an affair during that time. 


I read you prior posts form 2013 and I can understand why you stayed with your cheating wife. I can truly see my son in law do this as well for his girls' sake. I don't know when the **** will hit the fan for that family, but I am sure he will stay for the girls. On some level he does see that her temper outbursts for tiny things the girls do is not normal. He diffuses a lot of the situations, but he can't see how truly horrible it is. My X would display those temper outbursts too. I was the one that received most of the brunt of those outbursts though. Sadly, he does the same. I never saw the dysfunction until after he left. I was on alert mode with him all the time. As time passed, that became my normal for our lives.

Is that how you felt all these years knowing her erratic behavior would cause your children more harm if left with just her as the custodial parent?


----------



## StillSearching

Bibi1031 said:


> Well Dear Lord it's about time man!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is that how you felt all these years knowing her erratic behavior would cause your children more harm if left with just her as the custodial parent?


Yes Yes Yes!
It has nearly drove me to drinking...


----------



## Bibi1031

((((hugs))))

Boy can I relate. Sadly I am not in a spot where my input means anything. But thank God my daughter picked the best father for her babies! That in itself was not short of a miracle. Her choice of boyfriends was another scary story. 

Needless to say, when he came into her life, I felt he was a God send, which he truly is.

Maybe her parents feel the same way about you. Your reward for such a huge sacrifice will come from your children. You DO have the option to finally be free of that hell at this point in time though. Think very seriously about this. You have every right now!


----------



## StillSearching

Bibi1031 said:


> ((((hugs))))
> 
> Boy can I relate. Sadly I am not in a spot where my input means anything. But thank God my daughter picked the best father for her babies! That in itself was not short of a miracle. Her choice of boyfriends was another scary story.
> 
> Needless to say, when he came into her life, I felt he was a God send, which he truly is.
> 
> Maybe her parents feel the same way about you. Your reward for such a huge sacrifice will come from your children. You DO have the option to finally be free of that hell at this point in time though. Think very seriously about this. You have every right now!


Her mother loved me very much. She died last year. Her Dad ended his life when she was 4. Abuse started 4 years later by stepfather. 
My marriage was doomed on that day.


----------



## 10th Engineer Harrison

StillSearching said:


> That's me! That's a name I used to use!
> Thanks.
> I didn't want to go into all the issues because the more I go into the less people tend to believe you.


Interesting. Your d-day was maybe a week or two before mine. I found MB maybe a month or so later, and posted quite a bit when it was a good place to exchange ideas. But that was many many years ago now. I was banned from there in 2010 for quoting Frank Pittman.

When it comes to "how does a marriage 'feel' 15 years after d-day?" kinds of questions, I will say that I think those of us who stayed married after an affair *can* understand what you're talking about, but those who haven't experienced it and survived maybe just *can't*. I went through a period where it frustrated me that I was usually misunderstood when I said things like you're saying on this thread. But there are too many interesting, fun, and rewarding things to do in life for me to care much about what the uninitiated (or worse, the know-it-alls) think of my marriage now. 

Looking back on myself and my wife as we were dating and for the first 15 years or so of our marriage, I would say that I was definitely one of those people who thought marriage was the most rewarding thing I could do with my life. No longer. Looking back on all of it - the good and the bad times, and the times that had nothing to do with marriage - I'm pretty happy with what I've experienced and the wisdom I've gained. 

I grew up in a religious family, became "agnostic" in my early 20s, then went through a "militant atheist" phase about 25 years ago, then kind of back and forth between spirituality and atheism while dealing with d-day. But now, I'm a pretty friendly atheist. 

I knew, even not that long after d-day, that there'd be no way to fully "recover" what I thought we had prior to the affair. I've learned how to trust without compromising my own values. I no longer insist on full disclosure because I know that if someone wants to hide something, they will. Hammering them will simply teach them how to better hide things if that's what they want to do. But by backing off and showing I can be okay regardless of what others do, I've found we've developed a good relationship. But I don't think people younger than about 50 can comprehend.

-10th Engineer Harrison.


----------



## StillSearching

10th Engineer Harrison said:


> Interesting. Your d-day was maybe a week or two before mine. I found MB maybe a month or so later, and posted quite a bit when it was a good place to exchange ideas. But that was many many years ago now. I was banned from there in 2010 for quoting Frank Pittman.
> 
> When it comes to "how does a marriage 'feel' 15 years after d-day?" kinds of questions, I will say that I think those of us who stayed married after an affair *can* understand what you're talking about, but those who haven't experienced it and survived maybe just *can't*. I went through a period where it frustrated me that I was usually misunderstood when I said things like you're saying on this thread. But there are too many interesting, fun, and rewarding things to do in life for me to care much about what the uninitiated (or worse, the know-it-alls) think of my marriage now.
> 
> Looking back on myself and my wife as we were dating and for the first 15 years or so of our marriage, I would say that I was definitely one of those people who thought marriage was the most rewarding thing I could do with my life. No longer. Looking back on all of it - the good and the bad times, and the times that had nothing to do with marriage - I'm pretty happy with what I've experienced and the wisdom I've gained.
> 
> I grew up in a religious family, became "agnostic" in my early 20s, then went through a "militant atheist" phase about 25 years ago, then kind of back and forth between spirituality and atheism while dealing with d-day. But now, I'm a pretty friendly atheist.
> 
> I knew, even not that long after d-day, that there'd be no way to fully "recover" what I thought we had prior to the affair. I've learned how to trust without compromising my own values. I no longer insist on full disclosure because I know that if someone wants to hide something, they will. Hammering them will simply teach them how to better hide things if that's what they want to do. But by backing off and showing I can be okay regardless of what others do, I've found we've developed a good relationship. But I don't think people younger than about 50 can comprehend.
> 
> -10th Engineer Harrison.


I can relate to almost all of that for sure. I could not have made it without my faith in God. I realize some have faith in science that's fine too. 
I'm not very sure that our marriage will make it another 3 months. 
Her abuse has made it so she can't really be infatuated or show outward love to me. I don't think she even did that to the OM. 
If i dare bring up our sex life to just have a dialogue.... I'm a selfish jerk that can "Go find you another woman shes not going to make you happy either!" 
I'm a well kept 52. Shes a not so well kept 45.


----------



## 10th Engineer Harrison

StillSearching said:


> I can relate to almost all of that for sure. I could not have made it without my faith in God. I realize some have faith in science that's fine too.
> I'm not very sure that our marriage will make it another 3 months.
> Her abuse has made it so she can't really be infatuated or show outward love to me. I don't think she even did that to the OM.
> If i dare bring up our sex life to just have a dialogue.... I'm a selfish jerk that can "Go find you another woman shes not going to make you happy either!"
> I'm a well kept 52. Shes a not so well kept 45.


That's cool. I respect others' right to believe what they want, so long as they don't expect me to believe with them. But I don't have faith in science. It's not needed. It's just an objective way to learn truth. I don't believe in anything, except perhaps in questioning everything. Thomas was my favorite disciple. Judas wasn't too bad either.

I'm not in an abusive situation now. Really haven't been reminded of the affair much for a few years now. But I can understand that, if you are, you might want to end the relationship for keeps.

Interestingly, I had a colleague (he's retired now) who left our company about 25 years ago and founded his own company. His wife worked for him managing the business side while he hired scientists to do the research. They divorced a few years later (I suspect he cheated on her while he was on travel, but I was never close enough to know or want to know). But she kept on working for him up until he retired and closed the business. They seemed to get along while I knew them both, even after the divorce. They just weren't romantically interested in one another anymore. He had two sons who are probably in their early 40s by now.

I'm a worn-out 64, and my wife is a worn-out 62. We've been married 41 years.

I think most BHs were given the "you should find someone else" (to play with) line. I know I got it within about the first year after d-day. And a lot of websites that are part of the Reconciliation Industrial Complex will tell you that "everybody is hard-wired for infidelity". If that's the case, my wires must be aluminum and are oxidized beyond repair, because I've never cheated, and especially since d-day have never had the desire to cheat. If I have another relationship (at my age?), I'll finish this one first.

-10th Engineer Harrison.


----------



## StillSearching

Went out and started looking at places to move last week. It's starting to feel liberating.
She's been out of town working and has no idea. My life WILL turn around soon.


----------



## RWB

StillSearching said:


> I'm a well kept 52. *Shes a not so well kept 45*.


A marriage with a woman 40-45 is a dangerous time.


----------



## StillSearching

RWB said:


> A marriage with a woman 40-45 is a dangerous time.


Why?


----------



## fleek

StillSearching said:


> Why?


Primarily because of the walk away wife syndrome. Toss in peri-menopause, an empty nest, some angst, and a bit of mid life crisis and look out. 

I'm pretty much in the same situation as you stillsearching. Long ago cheating wife, wish I would have left years ago, strongly thinking of leaving now. 

I have come to believe some people are simply damaged beyond repair. No amount of therapy or drugs will fix them. A person can martyr themselves and stay with these damaged goods. Some people will make incredible sacrifices just to be continually abused, humiliated, and disrespected. 

We all have a breaking point though. I do think most of these folks leave in their heart long before they leave physically. I know I have. I can't tell another person to stay or leave. I understand both sides or the stay or go coin. Neither option is easy and we all have to live with our choices. It's a heckuva thing.


----------



## RWB

fleek said:


> *Primarily because of the walk away wife syndrome. Toss in peri-menopause, an empty nest, some angst, and a bit of mid life crisis and look out. *
> 
> I'm pretty much in the same situation as you stillsearching. Long ago cheating wife, wish I would have left years ago, strongly thinking of leaving now.
> 
> I have come to believe some people are simply damaged beyond repair. No amount of therapy or drugs will fix them. A person can martyr themselves and stay with these damaged goods. Some people will make incredible sacrifices just to be continually abused, humiliated, and disrespected.
> 
> We all have a breaking point though. I do think most of these folks leave in their heart long before they leave physically. I know I have.* I can't tell another person to stay or leave. I understand both sides or the stay or go coin. Neither option is easy and we all have to live with our choices. It's a heckuva thing.*


Why?

^^^ Exactly This ^^^

The troubled mid life wife syndrome show up here like ground-hog day. All it seems it takes is a "listening, sympathetic shoulder" to cry on and your wife goes from Troubled to Wayward faster than her panties hit the floor.


----------



## StillSearching

I just busted my wife at a hotel while I was supposed to be working........


----------



## GusPolinski

StillSearching said:


> I just busted my wife at a hotel while I was supposed to be working........


Ruh roh


----------



## 3Xnocharm

StillSearching said:


> I just busted my wife at a hotel while I was supposed to be working........


:surprise::surprise::surprise:


----------



## TX-SC

StillSearching said:


> I just busted my wife at a hotel while I was supposed to be working........


Well, that really sucks. Details? 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


----------



## Adelais

MyRevelation said:


> However, a BH CAN find happiness from within over any number of things, as long as they are honest with themselves, and NOT dependent on their WW's meeting their expectations of what you once thought you had. The hardest part for me was making peace with myself and accepting the consequences of my own poor choices. Now, I'm not excusing my W's behavior by accepting any blame for her choice, but I had ample evidence prior to M to see the red flags waving that I ignored due to being "in love" that could have allowed me to avoid the whole mess altogether ... THAT'S ON ME, and was part of me being honest enough with myself to acknowledge my mistakes and move forward from them.
> 
> I am painfully aware that I'm very capable of making major life screw ups ... now I focus on not making the same one's over again.


Red highlighted because I can relate.


----------



## ShatteredKat

busted at a hotel - - travels for work ?

StillSearching - my instant suspicion is not positive - 1st time "busted" or "first time caught/busted?"

Did you have a premonition to start looking for a place to live separately?


----------



## farsidejunky

So, what now?


----------



## StillSearching

ShatteredKat said:


> busted at a hotel - - travels for work ?
> 
> StillSearching - my instant suspicion is not positive - 1st time "busted" or "first time caught/busted?"
> 
> Did you have a premonition to start looking for a place to live separately?


No she booked a hotel room down the road from our house. Hilton rewards alerted me. So i called into work and borrowed a friends car. 
Followed her all day. She went to the hotel and 11:30. I showed up at 11:50.
She lied about things most all day. Came clean last night. It was a married Dr. she had been having sex with on her travels to N.O.
He was coming up for an interview and that was her chance to have sex with him again.

Yes I did have a feeling. She had been shutting down apps on her phone as I walked up.
She is being very cordial and wants me to wait a year before I file and dissolve the business.
Not going to happen. I have to get on with my life. 
I'm going to meet with a lawyer today.


----------



## StillSearching

farsidejunky said:


> So, what now?


Divorce and freedom from this 23 year imprisonment!


----------



## GusPolinski

StillSearching said:


> No she booked a hotel room down the road from our house. Hilton rewards alerted me. So i called into work and borrowed a friends car.
> Followed her all day. She went to the hotel and 11:30. I showed up at 11:50.
> She lied about things most all day. Came clean last night. It was a married Dr. she had been having sex with on her travels to N.O.
> He was coming up for an interview and that was her chance to have sex with him again.
> 
> Yes I did have a feeling. She had been shutting down apps on her phone as I walked up.
> She is being very cordial and wants me to wait a year before I file and dissolve the business.
> Not going to happen. I have to get on with my life.
> I'm going to meet with a lawyer today.


Expose to OMW!


----------



## StillSearching

GusPolinski said:


> Expose to OMW!


Got to do research to find out who she is.
Right now I'm focused on D


----------



## 3Xnocharm




----------



## 10th Engineer Harrison

StillSearching said:


> No she booked a hotel room down the road from our house. Hilton rewards alerted me.\


Man, the stoopid things cheaters do!

I'm flabbergasted, and it takes a lot to gast my flabber!:laugh:

You've been prepared for the rest of your life for many years now. Go enjoy yourself.


-10th Engineer Harrison.


----------



## Quality

StillSearching said:


> No she booked a hotel room down the road from our house. Hilton rewards alerted me. So i called into work and borrowed a friends car.
> Followed her all day. She went to the hotel and 11:30. I showed up at 11:50.
> She lied about things most all day. Came clean last night. It was a married Dr. she had been having sex with on her travels to N.O.
> He was coming up for an interview and that was her chance to have sex with him again.
> 
> Yes I did have a feeling. She had been shutting down apps on her phone as I walked up.
> She is being very cordial and wants me to wait a year before I file and dissolve the business.
> Not going to happen. I have to get on with my life.
> I'm going to meet with a lawyer today.


Not that it matters much but did you SEE this Dr. from New Orleans while you were there confronting her or is this what she told you later that day?

Chances are it's a local guy or some random dude off Craigsliss/Ash Madyysun or something like that and she just lied to make it seem quasi normal {from an adulterers standpoint} or to protect the guy and keep you off his trail {and|or her trail}.

Tough day. Be well. You've endured a lot for your kids and to protect your children. Don't begrudge that fact. You got to be there with them for a lot more than you otherwise would have. I know things aren't peachy with all of them right now but they at least understand one things, Dad doesn't just leave when the going get tough. Your wife is mentally ill and completely lacks impulse control. Your children would have been worse off with her as their primary parent. It doesn't excuse her hurtful choices one bit and you have every right to divorce her for it {then AND now}; but it does explain the situation and adds a certain level of tragedy'ness to it. You did the best you could.


----------



## Marc878

You only know "the tip of the iceberg". She's been banging the whole marriage. You just found a few needles in the haystack of other men.

I only hope you didn't raise one or more of her other men's children.

After you "stayed for the kids". That would be a real kick in the head.


----------



## sokillme

Unfortunately lots of WS are not worth the risk. At least you got a head start this time. Best to leave immediately when you find out the first time. Life is TOO short, and they are not worth the time an effort.


----------



## StillSearching

Quality said:


> Not that it matters much but did you SEE this Dr. from New Orleans while you were there confronting her or is this what she told you later that day?
> 
> Chances are it's a local guy or some random dude off Craigsliss/Ash Madyysun or something like that and she just lied to make it seem quasi normal {from an adulterers standpoint} or to protect the guy and keep you off his trail {and|or her trail}.
> 
> Tough day. Be well. You've endured a lot for your kids and to protect your children. Don't begrudge that fact. You got to be there with them for a lot more than you otherwise would have. I know things aren't peachy with all of them right now but they at least understand one things, Dad doesn't just leave when the going get tough. Your wife is mentally ill and completely lacks impulse control. Your children would have been worse off with her as their primary parent. It doesn't excuse her hurtful choices one bit and you have every right to divorce her for it {then AND now}; but it does explain the situation and adds a certain level of tragedy'ness to it. You did the best you could.


I didn't see him. I know that she is probably lying to me. But if it gets nasty, which i hope to God it doesn't, I will depose the Dr. 
I think you're right. Craigs List.


----------



## StillSearching

Marc878 said:


> You only know "the tip of the iceberg". She's been banging the whole marriage. You just found a few needles in the haystack of other men.
> 
> I only hope you didn't raise one or more of her other men's children.
> 
> After you "stayed for the kids". That would be a real kick in the head.


 I fear I might have.
I've questioned my youngest his whole life.


----------



## wmn1

StillSearching said:


> Hello I was here circa 2002. I Signed up and told my story.
> My D-Day is 1/10/02. My wife had an affair with a co-worker. I found out from marks he left on her.
> Its been a hard fought 15 years. I had many people here then tell me my story was fake. It drove me away from this site.
> I'm still with my wife. I have 3 kids all in college now.
> 
> I came back to read through some stories and try help if I could.
> If I could choose to do it over again, I would not. I would advise any BS not to reconcile. Even now I do not have a real marriage. Trust...well you never get that back. The pain fades.
> I have a good relationship with my wife but I am sure I would be a lot happier had I left in 2002.
> I had hopes things would be like they were. I was blinded by love.
> So makes your choices wisely. Listen to BSs here. Get a lawyer. Get a D. Get on with your life. Be happy.


Thanks for the advice, Stillsearching. You sound like an honorable guy and I cut and ran when it happened to me so I agree and it's important for others to hear your perspective as someone who has successfully reconciled but is properly advising us that the grass could be and often is greener if we exercise our right to leave


----------



## StillSearching

It's hitting me like 2 tons of bricks right now.
I'm having a hard time holding myself together at work.
Having flashback thoughts of things she did 20+ years ago.
This is too much


----------



## ButtPunch

My sympathies. Things will get better once you shed the excess weight.


----------



## Tron

I'm sorry you are having to go through this...again.

Know that the best time to get out of a toxic situation is right now.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

@StillSearching how are you doing?


----------



## StillSearching

3Xnocharm said:


> @StillSearching how are you doing?


Not real good.
She decided to confess another bang session 7 years ago.
It was a dagger.
She met with her lawyer today. I'll find out about that when I get home.
My lawyer seems to think I'm gunna be good.......?


----------



## Taxman

My condolences StillSearching
Your wife is the epitome of the old saying; The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.

Sending you strength. You are a good man that had a bad thing happen to you. One hopes that your future will be brighter, without the albatross around your neck.

One PS, if you know the name of the Doctor, it would behoove you to call the people who interviewed him. They would not want an MD on staff that makes it a habit to bang travelling businesspeople. (I am the father of a physician, and medical societies across North America are realizing that there are an awful lot of members who are not exactly casting a favorable light on the profession, and they are actively disciplining those people-my kid and four other residents had to pick up the pieces after an older staff OB decided that the nursing staff was his own private harem)


----------



## Taxman

PS, go out and find the best shark lawyer you can. She is not a very nice person and has very little regard for you. She is totally untrustworthy, guard your assets. Meet with both your lawyer and accountant ASAP. Your CPA may have connections to people who would be interested in buying you out, you may want to go to your competition and ask if they'd be interested, do all of this behind her back. She's concentrating on the affairs, you concentrate on getting the money out of the business so that you can have a life afterward, and as far as anyone is concerned, do not make her life easy. Make sure you get the lion share of equity. Point out that the only reason you started the business is to get her away from affairs at her former place of employment. Equity is everything.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

Pretty sad crap....wish you the best and keep your head high. 

Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk


----------



## theDrifter

StillSearching said:


> Not real good.
> She decided to confess another bang session 7 years ago.
> It was a dagger.
> She met with her lawyer today. I'll find out about that when I get home.
> My lawyer seems to think I'm gunna be good.......?


Dude - stop searching. And if she wants to "unburden" herself and tell you more cheating stories tell her you've heard enough. 

Be over reasonable in the divorce - it will be over quicker that way. You'll thank me for this advice a few years down the road.


----------



## Malaise

StillSearching said:


> Not real good.
> She decided to confess another bang session 7 years ago.
> It was a dagger.
> She met with her lawyer today. I'll find out about that when I get home.
> My lawyer seems to think I'm gunna be good.......?


Was there any time when she wasn't unfaithful during the marriage?


----------



## Tatsuhiko

It seems like a gut feeling led you back to TAM. Your wife is a despicable liar to her core. So let her be free to have a life of meaningless sexual encounters and never a fulfilling relationship. I only wish you'd done this in 2002. 

I sure hope you can unwind her from your business. Is she even apologetic? In any case, don't ever trust anything she says ever again. I wish all the best for you.


----------



## bandit.45

Taxman said:


> PS, go out and find the best shark lawyer you can. She is not a very nice person and has very little regard for you. She is totally untrustworthy, guard your assets. Meet with both your lawyer and accountant ASAP. Your CPA may have connections to people who would be interested in buying you out, you may want to go to your competition and ask if they'd be interested, do all of this behind her back. She's concentrating on the affairs, you concentrate on getting the money out of the business so that you can have a life afterward, and as far as anyone is concerned, do not make her life easy. Make sure you get the lion share of equity. Point out that the only reason you started the business is to get her away from affairs at her former place of employment. Equity is everything.


Agreed. I recommend the Shark from JAWS. Munch....munch...munch....


----------



## StillSearching

Malaise said:


> Was there any time when she wasn't unfaithful during the marriage?


Maybe the first year or so. But I don't really know.


----------



## StillSearching

Tatsuhiko said:


> It seems like a gut feeling led you back to TAM. Your wife is a despicable liar to her core. So let her be free to have a life of meaningless sexual encounters and never a fulfilling relationship. I only wish you'd done this in 2002.
> 
> I sure hope you can unwind her from your business. Is she even apologetic? In any case, don't ever trust anything she says ever again. I wish all the best for you.


This is exactly why I came back here. I know that now. I needed a bit of support and direction. I really didn't even know that a month ago....


----------



## StillSearching

She turned the hotel hooker up to 10 on me last night.
I didn't fall for it.
She was naked in my bed and all of it.
I can't tell weather shes mentally ill or completely evil.

She also told me she booked the hotel Monday to meet a man to have sex "To see if there is anything wrong with me."-she said.
WTF ..... of course there is!


----------



## wmn1

StillSearching said:


> She turned the hotel hooker up to 10 on me last night.
> I didn't fall for it.
> She was naked in my bed and all of it.
> I can't tell weather shes mentally ill or completely evil.
> 
> She also told me she booked the hotel Monday to meet a man to have sex "To see if there is anything wrong with me."-she said.
> WTF ..... of course there is!


ouch. I can only imagine the numbers of affairs she has had and ONS.

Divorce, bail and expose


----------



## farsidejunky

She is disordered. Period.

When sex does not work, which is clearly her "go-to", it will eventually start to produce anger. Anger in the disordered, and especially the charming disordered (which clearly your wife is capable), you are in danger. That is when false DV allegations or other craziness emerges.

You cannot get away from this woman fast enough. 
@Uptown, please talk some sense into this gentleman.


----------



## StillSearching

farsidejunky said:


> She is disordered. Period.
> 
> When sex does not work, which is clearly her "go-to", it will eventually start to produce anger. Anger in the disordered, and especially the charming disordered (which clearly your wife is capable), you are in danger. That is when false DV allegations or other craziness emerges.
> 
> You cannot get away from this woman fast enough.
> 
> @Uptown, please talk some sense into this gentleman.


I'm Gettin' I'm Gettin' away!
Fast as I can.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

WOW. I am SO SORRY. Ugh, she is a real piece of work. Can you kick her out?


----------



## StillSearching

wmn1 said:


> ouch. I can only imagine the numbers of affairs she has had and ONS.
> 
> Divorce, bail and expose


My lawyer wants to go after the doctor that she was going to meet on Monday after this is over.
I live in a state which you can do that.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

She may be setting you up. Regurgitating all the prior affairs to lessen the impact of the Dr's interference in your marriage. He being coached by she may claim you knew all along and accepted it. Hence her trying to have sex with you now. If you have sex with her that may remove any claim that you have that the Dr. interfered in your marriage. Don't fall for her honey trap. Might be a good idea to keep a VAR on when she engages you. 

My two cents, lawyer up fast and get away from her before she goes super nova..


----------



## Taxman

I agree totally with your lawyer, there may be a significant amount of damages that could be assessed against the doctor. Usually, the thought is to expose the affair to the OM's wife, but in this case, I'd play my cards very close to the chest. Your wife? NO COMMENT, save and except, you are going to have such a nice life without this (add expletive here) as part of your life. One hopes that your lawyer will clean her clock.


----------



## goingsolo12

@StillSearching

She is a horrible woman and she is not mentally stable, now you only think about yourself, scorch the damn earth, protect yourself, be a mean badass and take her down, she deserves it and run for the hills as fast as you can


----------



## Marc878

StillSearching said:


> She turned the hotel hooker up to 10 on me last night.
> I didn't fall for it.
> She was naked in my bed and all of it.
> I can't tell weather shes mentally ill or completely evil.
> 
> She also told me she booked the hotel Monday to meet a man to have sex "To see if there is anything wrong with me."-she said.
> WTF ..... of course there is!


She's evilly mentally ill.


----------



## Uptown

@*farsidejunky*, thanks for the call out.



farsidejunky said:


> *Uptown*, please talk some sense into this gentleman.


You and the other respondents have already accomplished that. Congratulations, *Farside*! In Searching's response to you, he states, _"I'm Gettin' I'm Gettin' away! Fast as I can."_



StillSearching said:


> I can't tell weather shes mentally ill or completely evil.


Between those two choices, Searching, my guess would be _"mentally ill."_ Of course, only a professional can determine whether her behavioral symptoms are so severe and persistent as to constitute a full-blown disorder. I nonetheless can tell you that the symptoms you describe -- i.e., the serial cheating, years of lying, and neediness -- are warning signs for Bipolar-1 Disorder, Histrionic PD and Narcissistic PD.



> She has been diagnosed by a Dr. Bi-polar and depression. But she never told the guy about affairs or extent of sexual abuse. I'm sure there's more going on.


The vast majority of people suffering from a "clinical disorder" such as Bipolar or Depression -- or from a PD such as Narcissism PD or Borderline PD (BPD) -- also suffer from at least one other disorder as well. You thus are wise to suspect "there's more going on" than the diagnosis of Bipolar. With females exhibiting full-blown Bipolar-1 in the past year, for example, 47% of them also exhibit a lifetime incidence of full-blown BPD.



> Her abuse has made it so she can't really be infatuated or show outward love to me.


Do you believe that she really does love you? I ask because, if she exhibits strong narcissistic symptoms, she is incapable of loving anyone. In contrast, Histrionics, BPDers, and Bipolar sufferers are capable of loving intensely (albeit not consistently showing it).



> Nope sex life never wavered.... I would say things are fine. Never great.


Are you saying that she has been emotionally stable over the past 24 years? If things are "fine" and your sex life "never wavered," you seem to believe your W is a stable woman. I ask because, whereas Narcissists typically are stable emotionally, the BPDers and Bipolar sufferers are emotionally unstable (BPDers flip between adoring you and devaluing you but Bipolar sufferers swing between mania and depression).



> Her Dad ended his life when she was 4. Abuse started 4 years later by stepfather.... She was sexually abused as a young girl by her step father for 4 years.


Likewise, my BPDer exW was sexually abused for several years by a parent -- her own father -- starting about age 7. Such abuse greatly raises the risk for developing a PD. With BPDers, for example, 70% report that they had been abandoned or abused by a parent during childhood.



> One thing that comes back to me every few months happened at the very first MC meeting. He asked us each "What are you most afraid of?"
> ... She said "That he wakes up and realizes things and leaves me."


People suffering from most personality disorders -- e.g., the Narcissistic, Histrionic, Dependent, and Avoidant PDs -- have a great fear of abandonment. They live in fear that, when a partner eventually discovers how empty they are on the inside, he will walk out.



> My confidence to leave has gone way up since I came back here.... Divorce and freedom from this 23 year imprisonment!


Great change in your attitude, StillSearching. I agree with *Farside* that _"You cannot get away from this woman fast enough."_


----------



## bandit.45

No more talking to her from now on. Disengage completely.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

StillSearching said:


> She turned the hotel hooker up to 10 on me last night.
> I didn't fall for it.
> She was naked in my bed and all of it.
> *I can't tell weather shes mentally ill or completely evil.
> *
> She also told me she booked the hotel Monday to meet a man to have sex "To see if there is anything wrong with me."-she said.
> WTF ..... of course there is!


 Why choose one? Sounds like she's both of those to me.


----------



## StillSearching

I would like to take the time to thank everyone here for their support over the years and especially over the last couple months.
Your advice has been a godsend. I have retained the most feared D lawyer in the area. When I first called his office the law clerk told me he was out of town.
I proceeded to explain a few details to him. He told me hang on a minute. Two minutes later the REAL lawyer got on the phone and said " I want you in my office in 15 mins, leave work now and get
here as fast as you can!" I have more evidence than I could possibly need.
I will be compensated for the last 20 years and more. 
All the doubt of my financial demise has lifted and my life looks very promising ahead.
I have started counselling to help me solve trust issues going forward.


----------



## GTdad

I hope I'm not minimizing the pain your wife has caused you by saying that I'm happy for you. Your wife effectively handed you a "Get Out of Jail Free" card, and you're taking it and running. What a relief it must be to leave that anchor behind.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

StillSearching said:


> I would like to take the time to thank everyone here for their support over the years and especially over the last couple months.
> Your advice has been a godsend. I have retained the most feared D lawyer in the area. When I first called his office the law clerk told me he was out of town.
> I proceeded to explain a few details to him. He told me hang on a minute. Two minutes later the REAL lawyer got on the phone and said " I want you in my office in 15 mins, leave work now and get
> here as fast as you can!" I have more evidence than I could possibly need.
> I will be compensated for the last 20 years and more.
> All the doubt of my financial demise has lifted and my life looks very promising ahead.
> I have started counselling to help me solve trust issues going forward.


Outstanding!!!


----------



## Tatsuhiko

@StillSearching: Please update when you can. We are eager to see this liar raked over the coals.


----------



## StillSearching

Tatsuhiko said:


> @StillSearching: Please update when you can. We are eager to see this liar raked over the coals.


I will. The pain of still new sex with OM from 9 years ago is fresh. yesterday new DDay 
There was no Dr. involved at all. It was all a ruse to hide OM from 9 years ago back in the saddle.
I have kicked her out of the house. She has confessed to both me and my 21 year old son. 
I need to stay focused. It's very painful. But my sister and friends are behind me.

And I thought I was home free.....will I ever have happiness?


----------



## Malaise

StillSearching said:


> I will. The pain of still new sex with OM from 9 years ago is fresh. yesterday new DDay
> There was no Dr. involved at all. It was all a ruse to hide OM from 9 years ago back in the saddle.
> *I have kicked her out of the house.* She has confessed to both me and my 21 year old son.
> I need to stay focused. It's very painful. But my sister and friends are behind me.
> 
> And I thought I was home free.....will I ever have happiness?


That's the beginning of your happiness.


----------



## RWB

StillSearching said:


> I will. The pain of still new sex with OM from 9 years ago is fresh. yesterday new DDay
> There was no Dr. involved at all. It was all a ruse to hide OM from 9 years ago back in the saddle.
> I have kicked her out of the house. She has confessed to both me and my 21 year old son.
> I need to stay focused. It's very painful. But my sister and friends are behind me.
> 
> *And I thought I was home free.....will I ever have happiness?*


In your opening post... You should of taken your own recommendation.


----------



## Openminded

You'll have happiness once you've moved on. You're very unlikely to have it with her. 

I doubt she's done so be prepared for all the stops to be pulled out in an effort to once more pull you back in. It's obviously up to you whether that works again.


----------



## StillSearching

Openminded said:


> You'll have happiness once you've moved on. You're very unlikely to have it with her.
> 
> I doubt she's done so be prepared for all the stops to be pulled out in an effort to once more pull you back in. It's obviously up to you whether that works again.


OH i'm done.
Her tricks and her manipulation of me are over. 
She's painted herself into a corner. 
And I'm well aware of the dangers of cornered animals. 
She will never use sex to hurt me again. Directly (reel me in) or with OM.


----------



## GusPolinski

Can't remember if OM is married or not, but if so, expose to his wife.


----------



## sokillme

StillSearching said:


> It's hitting me like 2 tons of bricks right now.
> I'm having a hard time holding myself together at work.
> Having flashback thoughts of things she did 20+ years ago.
> This is too much


Come one man perspective. 5 posts ago you were ready to leave. You were pretty sure she was doing this still and couldn't wait to get out. Now you decided to get nostalgic? Does the tortured miss his torturer? STOP IT! You are ending your jail sentence and riding off into the sunset. See yourself as John Wayne not Charley Brown. She didn't put one over on you, you did your time for your kids. 

Come on man, BUCK UP! You were over this codependent stuff, now when you are at the end is not the time to revert back to it. You did it man, your kids have survived and are healthy, now take strength in that and use that strength to find better.


----------



## sokillme

StillSearching said:


> She turned the hotel hooker up to 10 on me last night.
> I didn't fall for it.
> She was naked in my bed and all of it.
> I can't tell weather shes mentally ill or completely evil.
> 
> She also told me she booked the hotel Monday to meet a man to have sex "To see if there is anything wrong with me."-she said.
> WTF ..... of course there is!


Get a voice activated recorder and stay the hell away from your toxic wife!


----------



## StillSearching

sokillme said:


> Get a voice activated recorder and stay the hell away from your toxic wife!


Don't need it. I have full confessions. Divorce package states confession is all you need. And she's done it to 2 people on 2 different days.


----------



## StillSearching

sokillme said:


> Come one man perspective. 5 posts ago you were ready to leave. You were pretty sure she was doing this still and couldn't wait to get out. Now you decided to get nostalgic? Does the tortured miss his torturer? STOP IT! You are ending your jail sentence and riding off into the sunset. See yourself as John Wayne not Charley Brown. * She didn't put one over on you, you did your time for your kids.*
> 
> Come on man, BUCK UP! You were over this codependent stuff, now when you are at the end is not the time to revert back to it. You did it man, your kids have survived and are healthy, now take strength in that and use that strength to find better.


I swear to you I am not being nostalgic. 
I'm done in this hell hole i've been in. I'm just playing a little nice for 2 more days before the bomb drops.
I'm one pissed off MF.
Codependent I was. 

I like that line about my kids.


----------



## sokillme

StillSearching said:


> Don't need it. I have full confessions. Divorce package states confession is all you need. And she's done it to 2 people on 2 different days.


Who knows she may accuse you of domestic violence, your wife isn't very nice. You need it!


----------



## StillSearching

sokillme said:


> Who knows she may accuse you of domestic violence, your wife isn't very nice. You need it!


Good point.
Never thought about that.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

@StillSearching, how you holding up?


----------



## StillSearching

3Xnocharm said:


> @StillSearching, how you holding up?


About 50/50 right now. Been emotionally very hard this time.
She is staling the divorce talks. Wants to reconcile. Not gunna happen.
I'm trying to say focused and celibate. 
Both going to counseling on our own. She is still very cooperative. 
I keep waiting for her to panic and start full on crying. She never crys.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Glad to see you are standing firm. You know how the story ends if you let her get to you, lather rinse repeat. She has zero remorse.


----------



## TAMAT

StillSearching,

You wrote, I will. *The pain of still new sex with OM from 9 years ago is fresh. yesterday new DDay There was no Dr. involved at all. It was all a ruse to hide OM from 9 years ago back in the saddle.*

For anyone reading on this site who is ignoring, rug sweeping an affair or thinks it's over, please think again as StillSearchings example shows there is no statute of limitations on the intense feelings affair partners have for each other. 

Sincere statements of loyalty and love mean nothing when we are dealing with a profound addiction which most affairs are.

Do everything in your power to kill off the affair while it is an acute problem before it becomes a long term disease. 

Tamat


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## Tatsuhiko

I reckon you've shed a few gallons of tears on her in the past 15 years. I doubt she's shed a single one. She just wants you for the consistency in her life, like an old couch. Tell her she should work on reconciling with the furniture instead of you. 

Early on, you said you wished you'd never made the mistake of reconciling with her. Don't make that mistake again.


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## TDSC60

StillSearching said:


> About 50/50 right now. Been emotionally very hard this time.
> She is staling the divorce talks. Wants to reconcile. Not gunna happen.
> I'm trying to say focused and celibate.
> Both going to counseling on our own. She is still very cooperative.
> I keep waiting for her to panic and start full on crying. *She never crys.*


She never cries because she is not sorry for the infidelity-only for getting caught. You mean nothing to her. Your marriage only means financial security to her. Classic narcissist. Only thinks of herself.


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## StillSearching

I just exposed to the OM wife! wow was that liberating!
Highly recommend it!
She is pissed! Really wants to meet me now......
She found me on FB. How ironic.


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## 3Xnocharm

Way to go!!


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## sokillme

StillSearching said:


> I just exposed to the OM wife! wow was that liberating!
> Highly recommend it!
> She is pissed! Really wants to meet me now......
> She found me on FB. How ironic.


John Wayne MFer, John Wayne. Dispense some justice and ride off into the sunset.


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## Steve1000

sokillme said:


> Come one man perspective. 5 posts ago you were ready to leave. You were pretty sure she was doing this still and couldn't wait to get out. Now you decided to get nostalgic?


This does illustrate how we never really know how we will react unless something really happens. He didn't realize until now that his entire marriage was a ruse. That would be tough.


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## turnera

You met the lawyer quite a while ago; is there a holdup?


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## StillSearching

Things got worse yesterday.
While I was away and she was home alone I got a call from my son.
"You need to go to the hospital. Mom has a knife stuck in her chest."
Yup...there was a 12" knife stuck in her chest. It did not penetrate her rib cage. 
She said she tripped on the dog..... Dam this is getting crazy!


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## GusPolinski

Wow, that's crazy.

Status on the divorce?


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## sokillme

StillSearching said:


> Things got worse yesterday.
> While I was away and she was home alone I got a call from my son.
> "You need to go to the hospital. Mom has a knife stuck in her chest."
> Yup...there was a 12" knife stuck in her chest. It did not penetrate her rib cage.
> She said she tripped on the dog..... Dam this is getting crazy!


You may want to look into getting her institutionalized. This has gone far beyond you.


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## StillSearching

sokillme said:


> You may want to look into getting her institutionalized. This has gone far beyond you.


Can't divorce someone that has been institutionalized....


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## StillSearching

GusPolinski said:


> Wow, that's crazy.
> 
> Status on the divorce?


Slow going. She does not want it.


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## turnera

StillSearching said:


> Can't divorce someone that has been institutionalized....


meh

If she's institutionalized, you don't _need _to divorce her.


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## GusPolinski

StillSearching said:


> Slow going. She does not want it.


LOL

That cake must be delicious.


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## 3Xnocharm

StillSearching said:


> Can't divorce someone that has been institutionalized....


Is this a law, or an assumption? Too bad if she doesnt want it, just keep moving it forward.


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## samyeagar

sokillme said:


> I get not wanting to leave because of fear (not really but at least can see why it may seem easier) but what explains them so passively taking the crap and still being so meek about it. So many write about the crap they have to eat like its filet mignon. For instance some of the people who advocate for others to also settle and be in the same kind of trapped lives?
> 
> I mean if I decided to stay lets say for the kids, I am almost positive I would cheat and probably do it in the most painful way possible, and gaslight the hell out of it on purpose I might add. I would turn into a truly awful despicable human being. My first priority would be to kill every inch of my love for this person with fire as quickly as possible. Our marriage at that point would be detente, an ice cold business partnership. This is why I know I could never R. It's not in my nature.
> 
> I think it's more than fear of change, it's the belief that you don't deserve better. There is none of the, if someone punches me, I will stab them back, which is in my opinion a healthy feeling, though it should not be acted upon. That feeling is what helped me leave my cheater. It's the school yard bully syndrome. A lot of these guys that stay are kind of the same as the kid that keeps getting punched in school. They never learned to fight back. That seems to be another big part of what is missing.


My ex-wife is diagnosed NPD, and I stayed with her for 20 years attempting the impossible to make the marriage work primarily for the kids. The day I discovered she was cheating is the day I filed for divorce, and never looked back. I know that my own personal bar for what would be needed to work through an affair is impossibly high, and that no person could ever achieve it. In the case of infidelity, divorce if the only fair option for me. No talking through it, no second chances. My current wife is aware of my feelings on this, and I have a track record to back it up.


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## sokillme

StillSearching said:


> Can't divorce someone that has been institutionalized....


If she is stabbing herself she is probably a danger to the people around her.


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## sokillme

StillSearching said:


> Slow going. She does not want it.


Um why does what she wants matter. You didn't want her to cheat on you multiple times. I thought you had already planed your exit strategy? What is the hold up now? I bet you she will move on if she sees you are serious, in fact seeing as she probably has some sort of personality disorder I suspect her recovery will be so extremely quick as to be miraculous. This is because all of this nonsense it just more of her manipulative bull**** that she has always controlled you with. Part of the idea of getting her institutionalized is to call here on it. I suspect when she is exposed to the possibility of losing her freedom even for a short time the histrionics will stop. And if she can't then she should be institutionalized so she can get some help. That would be the time to serve her when she is under a doctors care. 

Now all that advice takes into account that you were serious when you said at the beginning of the thread that you were done with this farce of a marriage as YOU described it. It seem now however now that you have been confronted with the fact that your worst fears were true you are trying to salvage something? Are you sure this isn't more about your pride then you actually wanting to say with your wife. I get that, it hurts to know someone you invested so much time in can treat you so bad but look up sunk cost fallacy because this seems to be exactly what you are believing. You need to get over that and move on, you are wasting time, you have wasted enough time!


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## honcho

StillSearching said:


> Can't divorce someone that has been institutionalized....


Don't make this assumption. My mom tried numerous times to commit suicide, was found incompetent yet the state I live in had no problems allowing her to file for divorce. Even getting them in an institution long term is very hard. About the best you can hope for is a 3 day stay then they get released.


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## 10th Engineer Harrison

Well, I've heard all kinds of strange things. And even had a strange thing like tripping over the dog happen to me a few months ago. I was trying to separate a mirror from it's mount that had been double-stick foam taped on REALLY WELL. I was using a brand new exacto knife on it, holding it in such a way that, although the blade was pointed toward me, I had it braced so that even if it slipped, I wouldn't cut myself. It slipped and I cut myself. Didn't puncture my chest cavity but it was deep enough to bleed like a mo-fo. Held the wound with one bloody hand while calling my wife with my cell phone in the other hand. And I did that AFTER putting everything I was working on away and locking my shop door (I didn't want to leave it open while getting driven to the hospital).

Stupid. But I did it and have the scar to prove it!


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## StillSearching

I've had many people now ask me "How things are going?"
Well after many hours in therapy, which has lead to an "awakening" last Monday, things are going quite well for me now.
Being married to someone with mental illness and it's effects on me are not cured, in my case, with instant divorce.
I held off filing until I was sure I would not fall into a new abusive relationship.
My wife was having affairs for the sole reason to control me. They were one nighters meant for me to know about. 
My wife has Covert-Aggressive Disorder and Borderline Personality Disorder. 
I may file soon because they say it takes a major event to snap them out of it. Or for me to start a new wonderful life.
She can no longer hurt me and I am prepared for the next relationship. I've read so many books searching for answers that I never found.
The book "In Sheep's Clothing" changed my life. I highly recommend it.
I know my case is very different than most here. 
Beware of a partner with childhood sexual abuse that has never dealt with it.


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## Uptown

StillSearching said:


> My wife has Covert-Aggressive Disorder and Borderline Personality Disorder.


Searching, thanks for returning to give us an update. As to your W having "Covert-Aggressive Disorder," I note that there is no such disorder listed in the American DSM-5 or the European ICD-10 diagnostic manuals. Perhaps your therapist said "Passive Aggressive Personality Disorder"? If so, that is not concrete diagnosis, i.e., it is not listed as a category of personality disorders in either diagnostic manual. 

PAPD nonetheless is mentioned in a residual category called "PD Not Specified" in the American Manual and "Other Specific PDs" in the European Manual. That residual category keeps peace in the psychiatric community when the majority decides to eliminate a PD category that some members want to continue using. They bury the deleted category in this residual category so that the therapists who are fond of the label can continue using it under a billing code for that residual category. My understanding, then, is that "passive aggressive" (i.e., covert aggressive) is more accurately described as a symptom, not a disorder, because it is no longer listed as a PD category. Many people suffering from BPD and NPD, for example, exhibit passive-aggressive behavior.



> I may file soon because they say it takes a major event to snap them out of it.


I assume that by "snap them out of it" you mean "give them a strong incentive to seek therapy." If she has full-blown BPD as her therapist says, it is highly unlikely that she has both the self awareness and ego strength required to remain in therapy long enough (several years at least) to make a real difference. It takes many years of hard work in therapy for a BPDer to acquire the emotional skills she was unable to learn in childhood. Like learning a foreign language, acquiring those skills is much easier when it is done at an early age.


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## StillSearching

It's not Passive Aggressive. 
Passive and Covert mean two different things. 
Beware the Covert-Aggressive Personality


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## StillSearching

Uptown said:


> Searching, thanks for returning to give us an update. As to your W having "Covert-Aggressive Disorder," I note that there is no such disorder listed in the American DSM-5 or the European ICD-10 diagnostic manuals. Perhaps your therapist said "Passive Aggressive Personality Disorder"? If so, that is not concrete diagnosis, i.e., it is not listed as a category of personality disorders in either diagnostic manual.
> 
> PAPD nonetheless is mentioned in a residual category called "PD Not Specified" in the American Manual and "Other Specific PDs" in the European Manual. That residual category keeps peace in the psychiatric community when the majority decides to eliminate a PD category that some members want to continue using. They bury the deleted category in this residual category so that the therapists who are fond of the label can continue using it under a billing code for that residual category. My understanding, then, is that "passive aggressive" (i.e., covert aggressive) is more accurately described as a symptom, not a disorder, because it is no longer listed as a PD category. Many people suffering from BPD and NPD, for example, exhibit passive-aggressive behavior.
> 
> I assume that by "snap them out of it" you mean "*give them a strong incentive to seek therapy.*" If she has full-blown BPD as her therapist says, it is highly unlikely that she has both the self awareness and ego strength required to remain in therapy long enough (several years at least) to make a real difference. It takes many years of hard work in therapy for a BPDer to acquire the emotional skills she was unable to learn in childhood. Like learning a foreign language, acquiring those skills is much easier when it is done at an early age.


YES
She shows almost all the traits and behavior that a BPDer shows......
And has to WIN at any and all costs.
I guess i meant Covert-Aggressive Personality Disorder.


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## knobcreek

"Get a lawyer. Get a D. Get on with your life. Be happy"

I agree, words to live by, I wish I did the same.

You will never get the trust back, and a piece dies, you can't look at the woman the same. It's not fair to either person, both deserve the potential for a marriage where there is mutual trust, love, and respect.

My d-day was over a decade ago, and it still haunts me, still don't love my wife the same, still definitely wish I were single and moving on solo in life.

The kids are the only reason I stay, I suppose when they're in college I'll file.


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## StillSearching

knobcreek said:


> "Get a lawyer. Get a D. Get on with your life. Be happy"
> 
> I agree, words to live by, I wish I did the same.
> 
> You will never get the trust back, and a piece dies, you can't look at the woman the same. It's not fair to either person, both deserve the potential for a marriage where there is mutual trust, love, and respect.
> 
> My d-day was over a decade ago, and it still haunts me, still don't love my wife the same, still definitely wish I were single and moving on solo in life.
> 
> The kids are the only reason I stay, I suppose when they're in college I'll file.


I understand completely. My first D-Day was Jan.9th 2002.
But I did not want to end up with another manipulative abuser. 
My kids are in college.
I've come to know the term "Happy" is symptom of good, truthful behavior on my part.


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## honcho

StillSearching said:


> I understand completely. My first D-Day was Jan.9th 2002.
> But I did not want to end up with another manipulative abuser.
> My kids are in college.
> I've come to know the term "Happy" is symptom of good, truthful behavior on my part.


You can't even start to worry or think about a next relationship until you get out of the toxic one your in and start healing yourself. You won't even realize how toxic your current situation is until you get out and have some time to reflect on the mess.


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## sokillme

StillSearching said:


> I held off filing until I was sure I would not fall into a new abusive relationship.


You understand that just because you are no longer married doesn't mean you have to be in a relationship with anyone right? You could always and should actually wait until you are healed and have had some good IC. Don't have to be married to do any of that. I mean come on what really is the deal here? Your first posts you were ready and gung-ho. Then she cheated again and threw you right into a tailspin right? Don't hold on because of your hurt pride. You know in your mind her cheating has nothing to do with you right, she is broken. 

Look maybe it is all financial, then why don't you just open the marriage and tell her you are staying for financial reasons? At least then it would be fair. Is it because you think she would balk at the idea and divorce you if you did that? This is why you are NOT safe staying in the first place. You and your counselor say your wife is mentally unstable, that's part of the problem. One day she may just up an leave and do it to you in the worst way possible. Wouldn't be the first time we have seen something like this. Maybe she prepares and come guns blazing. I read one story where the person found out about the court date like days before. (Not sure if that is possible but I did read it.) My point is if you are staying because being with her gives you a sense of familiar security, than you really are living off of false hope. Your wife is a serial cheater with a mental disorder. You will only truly be emotionally and financially safe away from her. 

Now if this is all really because you still love her and desperately want her to change, then God help you.


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## 3Xnocharm

StillSearching said:


> I've had many people now ask me "How things are going?"
> Well after many hours in therapy, which has lead to an "awakening" last Monday, things are going quite well for me now.
> Being married to someone with mental illness and it's effects on me are not cured, in my case, with instant divorce.
> I held off filing until I was sure I would not fall into a new abusive relationship.
> My wife was having affairs for the sole reason to control me. They were one nighters meant for me to know about.
> My wife has Covert-Aggressive Disorder and Borderline Personality Disorder.
> I may file soon because they say it takes a major event to snap them out of it. Or for me to start a new wonderful life.
> She can no longer hurt me and I am prepared for the next relationship. I've read so many books searching for answers that I never found.
> The book "In Sheep's Clothing" changed my life. I highly recommend it.
> I know my case is very different than most here.
> Beware of a partner with childhood sexual abuse that has never dealt with it.


I am getting mixed signals from this post. Are you divorcing her? I hope?? You came back here with a very clear message to share, that cheaters dont change, R is a waste of time, and BS's should get OUT. I'm just praying you are following your own advice.


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## BobSimmons

3Xnocharm said:


> I am getting mixed signals from this post. Are you divorcing her? I hope?? You came back here with a very clear message to share, that cheaters dont change, R is a waste of time, and BS's should get OUT. I'm just praying you are following your own advice.


Read the beginning of the post saying the betrayed shouldn't R and file for D and yet he complained about not being in a real marriage, which lends the question why didn't he D?

So yes, the signals are mixed from the jump.


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## BetrayedDad

StillSearching said:


> Hello I was here circa 2002.





StillSearching said:


> Its been a hard fought 15 years.





StillSearching said:


> I'm still with my wife.





StillSearching said:


> If I could choose to do it over again, I would not. I would advise any BS not to reconcile. Even now I do not have a real marriage. Trust...well you never get that back. The pain fades. I have a good relationship with my wife but I am sure I would be a lot happier had I left in 2002. I had hopes things would be like they were. I was blinded by love. So makes your choices wisely. Listen to BSs here. Get a lawyer. Get a D. Get on with your life. Be happy.


1) Thank you for validating my decision. For every cheat story, with a happy "R" at the end (debatable) there are 20 others with BS's living a hell on earth like you.

2) It's not too late to file for "D". You owe her NOTHING. Stop making excuses and BAIL before she sticks you in the nursing home so she can start banging the pool boy.


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## Openminded

It seemed you were ready to divorce her after the last round of cheating. Then it seemed that you stalled. Is that an accurate read? If so, why?


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## StillSearching

Openminded said:


> It seemed you were ready to divorce her after the last round of cheating. Then it seemed that you stalled. Is that an accurate read? If so, why?


Yes, My therapist suggested I not file until I was better.
That means I didn't file until I understood fully why I was married to her and work toward a solution not to do it again.
Yes It looks like I am filing for divorce likely soon. 
But like I said my circumstance is not like most. I thought it was like most, in the beginning.
She's very abusive in a covert way.
Everyday I see it. Everyday I learn more to help me move forward.


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## Thor

I don't understand why you need to understand all the deep stuff about why you married her in order for you to divorce her. Divorce, then give yourself a year to figure yourself out before dating anybody.


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## 3Xnocharm

Thor said:


> I don't understand why you need to understand all the deep stuff about why you married her in order for you to divorce her. Divorce, then give yourself a year to figure yourself out before dating anybody.


Agreed. Why the hell do you have to understand it to end it?? It doesnt matter WHY you are in it. Get out, then get your mind right. Your toxic situation is not going to allow for straight thinking or healing. 

Or is this just an excuse because you dont really want out?


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## dubsey

I'll play devil's advocate for "waiting until he figures it out".

By waiting, he takes her power to manipulate and use those tools against him. He needs his own tools and foundation to work with. It's not like he's going to file and she'll just say "ok, I understand and I know I was wrong. Good luck with your life."


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## Uptown

StillSearching said:


> Yes It looks like I am filing for divorce likely soon.... She's very abusive in a covert way.


Searching, I recommend that you read the book, _Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist_. If your W is a BPDer as your therapist believes, the divorce likely will get very nasty very quickly. I also recommend two online articles: Surviving a Breakup with Someone Suffering with BPD and Leaving a Partner with BPD. At other websites, I recommend Pain of Breaking Up and Divorcing a Narcissist. 

I also suggest you take a quick look at my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs to see if most sound very familiar. If so, I would suggest you also read my more detailed description of them at my posts in Rebel's Thread. If that description rings many bells and raises questions, I would be glad to join @*farsidejunky* and the other respondents in discussing them with you. Take care, Searching.


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## honcho

StillSearching said:


> Yes, My therapist suggested I not file until I was better.
> That means I didn't file until I understood fully why I was married to her and work toward a solution not to do it again.
> Yes It looks like I am filing for divorce likely soon.
> But like I said my circumstance is not like most. I thought it was like most, in the beginning.
> She's very abusive in a covert way.
> Everyday I see it. Everyday I learn more to help me move forward.


How exactly does a therapist expect you to get better but keep you in an abusive marriage keeping you "unbetter". Sound's like a guy driving up billing hours.


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## Mr Blunt

StillSearching has had his emotions and self-esteem violently raped by his wife for 15 years and he has not divorced her. WHY? Well according to his posts it was because his children were not grown, SS is too co-dependent, and the money will have to be split in a divorce. 

SS tells us that his therapist tells him that he should not divorce until he understands why he was married to her. SS married her when he was young and naïve just like most of us. He stayed married to her because he was too co-dependent and did not want to lose money. Time for action by SS. I do not think that you have to be a PhD and psycho analysis this situation too much. The therapist story sounds odd to me. Either the therapist has some agenda that is not the best for SS or there is more to the story.

If this story is true and SS has been honest then I think that SS is still too co-dependent and he does not want to take a hit on his money. I think that money is very important especially when you are nearing retirement age but, SS you live in America and you are not going to starve. You tell us that your business is doing very well so then you will have income even if you have to give her some. SS, you told us in an earlier post that *“One thing I've learned is having money does not equate to happiness.”*

*You have to choose between less money and happiness and that is your most important decision right now!* Oh, I forgot that you mentioned freedom and relief from your wife tormenting your emotions by rejecting you and replacing you with her sex buddies.

Do you want 15 more years of what you had the last 15 YEARS?* If you do not then stop allowing delays and do what is right for you NOW*!


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## StillSearching

Uptown said:


> Searching, I recommend that you read the book, _Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist_. If your W is a BPDer as your therapist believes, the divorce likely will get very nasty very quickly. I also recommend two online articles: Surviving a Breakup with Someone Suffering with BPD and Leaving a Partner with BPD. At other websites, I recommend Pain of Breaking Up and Divorcing a Narcissist.
> 
> I also suggest you take a quick look at my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs to see if most sound very familiar. If so, I would suggest you also read my more detailed description of them at my posts in Rebel's Thread. If that description rings many bells and raises questions, I would be glad to join @*farsidejunky* and the other respondents in discussing them with you. Take care, Searching.


Will do. Thanks
She has about 12 of those 18 behaviors.
That Rebel's thread hit home....


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