# White flag?



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Background: Seperated since Jan, one child

It's been a while since anything has happened, life has been cruisy for awhile... until today that is, as STBXW decided we should re-establish communication channels and put aside our recent disagreements with me dating one of her past friends. So ok, I agreed, I was getting tired of being tense every weekend when picking up my daughter.

So alright, we discussed it in detail, full transparency, and in particular she was curious whether I cheated on her or if we had an emotional affair during our marriage. I told her the truth that I didn't but hell I don't believe her when she told me that she believed me - as I wouldn't believe me if I was her!

Anyways, she told me that she's had enough of seperation and wants to know if we can repair what we've lost. She used the words "white flag" and quite frankly I felt insulted. I told her that it's not a game and I'm not doing this specifically to hurt her or to win or whatever, but that our marriage is literally kaput.

We talked about what happened on February (where she ignored safe words) and the incident and she agreed that she over-reacted and told me that she was too proud to admit that she was wrong in that. She told me she's been doing alot of counselling and wants to change. I told her that even with all that, I'm not ready to re-commit. It's been almost a year single and I've kinda got used to my newfound freedom and sole responsibility either than my daughter. I asked her why she hasn't found someone else and she told me she's not interested in that, and that she wants a family not just another man, and that I'm still the father of her daughter and she knows our daughter loves me very much.

I told her it's not a good idea to get back together just because she misses the family lifestyle. She told me she missed me and always loved me and all that. I told her the feelings aren't mutual and that I've moved on emotionally, that all she'll find if she comes back is an empty shell - I'm gone. She didn't take that too kindly at all, and we had a bit of an emotional chat about how I could forsake everything we've done and all the good times we've spent together and what not. I just listened, and she eventually calmed down. I told her that I did love her, but she changed too much we've become too distant.

She said that if I really want a divorce she won't stop me, but asks me to consider if we could give it another shot. Well, looks like she's not letting me go. I don't know... I've told her everything that should have pushed her away, and quite frankly I didn't expect her to still want to get back together after all I've said. Meh...

What you think?


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

I'm thinking she just misses being a family yes? Chances are her feelings are already gone as well


----------



## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Random

Are you afraid to try again with your wife?

Or do you just not want to give up your freedom?

You are doubting the truth of your wifes comments but she is not doubting yours.

Why not have another serious conversation with her, really listen and then decide if she has hers, yours and your daughters best intentions at heart.

You might be surprised...

HM


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

This is really your choice. If you don't feel that you can fully commit AND fall back in love - or that she can't or won't - then it is not worth the effort. From you post, I get the sense that you have moved on and _want_ to continue moving on. Perhaps only a residual caring and sense of duty may be causing some second thoughts, but a little more reflection will probably make things clear to you what's the best path forward for you.


----------



## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

If you've truly moved on, this is all irrelevant. Why would you choose to go back when you seem very happy with your new life?

For your daughter's sake, encourage her to continue improving herself. Otherwise, it's not your problem anymore.


----------



## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

I'd tell her to get herself into therapy and finally deal with whatever is in her past. She's was medicating her pain with sex while you were together.


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

If you've really moved on emotionally, then accept it. Some things take a long time to evolve, but the change is inexorable.

Imagine your ideal life situation 5 years from now. If it doesn't include your W as your W, then stop wondering about her second thoughts.


----------



## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> It's been almost a year single and I've kinda got used to my newfound freedom and sole responsibility either than my daughter.


You've had a year separated, not single, just to note.


----------



## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

I have read your stuff for a long time. You love drama. Get thee to IC and in a couple of years, reconsider marriage if she too gets IC. Dude, you are tiring.

Seriously. You have issues. Your ex is a result of them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Quite frankly I don't think I would be able to support her anymore. Sure I'll get half my assets back which I can use to buy out my rather increasingly pesky shareholders but then I'll gain back a dependent. Trying to reconnect with her emotionally will be extremely difficult now that everything has been burnt out.

I have nothing left that I'm willing to give her. Sense of duty... residual care... perhaps, but there's only one card on the table worth anything at the moment; our daughter's welfare. We've already painted a bad model for a marriage. Sure we had good times but also bad ones, with enough bad to cause us to seperate.

I've already closed up emotionally towards her, so if we do get back together we'll be roommates... worse, that if her feelings are genuine, then I'll be giving her false hope that we can get back to normal again. No, I don't hate her THAT much to lead her on like that. And all this in addition to the overwhelming fact that it will be a loveless marriage for the sake of our daughter if we do try again.

Is that what is best for her? Just so we can be a family again? Happy family? No, fake family more like...

Alright... I'm going to stick with my decision to divorce.


----------



## AnoukNZ (Oct 18, 2010)

Love is a choice ! You can always try to reconnect with her and be a happy family, try counselling, what do you have to lose?


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

We've tried counselling, both IC and MC especially during our seperation and for a while sure, things were going well because we were living apart!

I don't know... I look at my life now and I'm quite happy with my new routine. During the weekdays I go to work, put up with pesky people, but now I always come home to sweet solitude! And during the weekends either than having to see STBX's face if she's awake and about I have all weekend to spend with my little warrior princess!

I'm past the loneliness stage, past the sense of loss... and now STBX wants us to stop this momentum and head back the other way back to imprisonment? I have no desire for her, no desire for sex, no desire for affection. I'm dead emotionally nowadays when it comes to relationships. My heart is only open to one last person; my daughter and that's IT.

So hey... odds are REALLY against us right now. And if I ask myself... is STBX worth all the trouble? Again? No. But our daughter... bah, meh...

Hell I think I'll decide after this weekend when I see my daughter again, and find out how happy she would be if mummy and daddy got back together again. But if I get the hint she's already getting accustomed to her new lifestyle despite our broken home, then fk it.

Guess we'll see


----------



## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Don't do it. It's clear you are both in a better place apart. You are happier, which means your daughter is happier. Kids need stability. If trying = 1/2 assed b/c you aren't sure either of you really want to get back together... don't.


----------



## LostViking (Mar 26, 2013)

RD I forget, did she cheat on you? I need to go back and read your threads.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

RandomDude said:


> We've tried counselling, both IC and MC especially during our seperation and for a while sure, things were going well because we were living apart!
> 
> I don't know... I look at my life now and I'm quite happy with my new routine. During the weekdays I go to work, put up with pesky people, but now I always come home to sweet solitude! And during the weekends either than having to see STBX's face if she's awake and about I have all weekend to spend with my little warrior princess!
> 
> ...


I"m sorry to read that you are closed off altogether, to anyone except your daughter. Horrible loss. Don't let her ruin your whole life.... if you WERE in a peaceful state and open to love, then yes move on.
But me thinks you still have some work to do with your ex yet. 
Like learning how to love her as your daughter's mother, some emotion needs to be there. 

Sometimes you have to break apart to come back together in a healthier way. Might be just as close friends, not married partners. But open your heart up to her, a bit. Listen to what she has to say. Forgiving her is for YOU. To do that you might need to let her back in a bit. So you can let her go with peace.


----------



## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

LostViking said:


> RD I forget, did she cheat on you? I need to go back and read your threads.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This thread might help: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/61488-update-stbxs-revelation.html

He cheated. She had some sort of interesting past.


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

> Don't do it. It's clear you are both in a better place apart. You are happier, which means your daughter is happier. Kids need stability. If trying = 1/2 assed b/c you aren't sure either of you really want to get back together... don't.


Aye... that's what I'm thinking =/



deejov said:


> I"m sorry to read that you are closed off altogether, to anyone except your daughter. Horrible loss. Don't let her ruin your whole life.... if you WERE in a peaceful state and open to love, then yes move on.
> But me thinks you still have some work to do with your ex yet.
> Like learning how to love her as your daughter's mother, some emotion needs to be there.
> 
> Sometimes you have to break apart to come back together in a healthier way. Might be just as close friends, not married partners. But open your heart up to her, a bit. Listen to what she has to say. Forgiving her is for YOU. To do that you might need to let her back in a bit. So you can let her go with peace.


Not really a big loss, I'm content and at peace, and I spare the female gender the horror of dealing with me :rofl:

I've already forgiven her, I don't hate her. Forgive myself though? Meh, I'm better off on my own. I've listened, but her words go through me and doesn't even move me. I feel nothing. I'm just dead, even with that recent date we had romance sure but truthfully, I took it slow for another reason; because I knew I felt nothing but hoped I could feel again.

Nope. So hey, I was a bit pissed STBX got involved but I don't really blame her and quite frankly I don't really care. I wasn't really emotionally invested in that, but I was pissed at her getting involved with my business but that's that.



LostViking said:


> RD I forget, did she cheat on you? I need to go back and read your threads.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, she has always been faithful, I haven't been however. I had a drunken ONS years ago before marriage. Or at least I think I did, either way I dealt with the consequences of my actions.


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Sounds like you have made up your mind here Random Dude......given your replies to the questions asked of you on this thread... .for you to offer her an open hand of HOPE would be the wrong move right now ...given where you are emotionally...as you have have stated here "I have no desire for her, no desire for sex, no desire for affection. I'm dead emotionally nowadays when it comes to relationships. My heart is only open to one last person; my daughter and that's IT."

Individual counseling would be the best you could do, if you feel you need this in your life right now, do not allow her to suck you back in...

I agree with another poster, if you are not having thoughts of *HOPE*.... seeing the 2 of you together in 5 yrs time, the *enthusiasm*, *the will*, *the passion *to climb that mountain together 
to rebuild is simply NOT THERE...it would fall to the ground if you even tried ....


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Yeah... guess that's for the best. Looks like I'll break her heart again. I feel sorry for her really, but that's it. I'll let her know my decision soon, and hopefully it won't erupt into tears or something. I hate it when I make people cry! Bah!

Would have been easier if she didn't come to me and tell me all this crap. Now I have another thing to be guilty about! Bah

Fk my life sometimes >.<


----------



## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

"I have no desire for her, no desire for sex, no desire for affection."

Is that still true though? I mean, the frustration over the developments with the potential GF who was a friend of the STBXW tells me that no desire for sex or affection or companionship isn't quite true. 

Not desiring that with the STBXW, yeah, but not in general. 

I think it's well past time for some IC regardless of what you decide to do with the ex, RandomDude, as this whole going whole-hog on "emotional lockdown" isn't a good technique. I mean, if your daughter ever really upset you, are you going to do that to her too? I'm thinking different coping mechanisms are needed.


----------



## AnoukNZ (Oct 18, 2010)

Ask yourself how important is the family unit you and your wife have created? 
How important do you think it is for your daughter ?

If you loved your wife and you had good times together and both of you understand the importance to commit and work together to rebuild your family from the ashes, you can create something different and better.


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Starstarfish said:


> "I have no desire for her, no desire for sex, no desire for affection."
> 
> Is that still true though? I mean, the frustration over the developments with the potential GF who was a friend of the STBXW tells me that no desire for sex or affection or companionship isn't quite true.
> 
> ...


I didn't even do anything with STBXW's friend, hell I just had some fun flirting and that was it. There's nothing really driving me towards anything with anyone, and hell I've got used to the hand nowadays especially after so long and I really don't care.

During my time with that date, a part of me enjoyed the company and the fun of the game and romance. Another part of me dreaded deep down inside if I was to sacrifice my newfound freedom and independence for another future ex-wife. Since STBX gave me the shove - she effectively helped me decide:

FK companionship, which includes STBX and anybody else.



AnoukNZ said:


> Ask yourself how important is the family unit you and your wife have created?
> How important do you think it is for your daughter ?
> 
> If you loved your wife and you had good times together and both of you understand the importance to commit and work together to rebuild your family from the ashes, you can create something different and better.


My daughter wants what STBX wants but is it the best for her in the end?


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

you put it behind you and seem to be thriving......continue on with the plan and have no regrets.


----------



## AnoukNZ (Oct 18, 2010)

RandomDude said:


> There's nothing really driving me towards anything with anyone, and hell I've got used to the hand nowadays especially after so long and I really don't care.


this does not look like you're thriving, more like resigning...you've resigned to this situation ...

"_Our lives are about learning to love and be loved.(...)
Our life process has been about learning to love ourselves and to live our lives from that place of love_." ( Bruce Fisher and Nina Hart, _Loving Choices_)

You have a lot of growing to do, both you and your wife and I suggest another good book to help with this :_Rebuilding: When Your Relationship Ends_, by Bruce Fisher


----------



## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Are you still beating yourself up for the ONS?

Guilt is way overrated. You have a daughter, and you are alive... live your life.

I'm not saying what you did was okay, but it sounds like you have lost your marriage and you are really both in a better place now. Don't you think that's consequence enough for everyone.

Time to look forward. Lesson learned. Stop beating on yourself. Not productive. Be happy. At minimum, you will teach your daughter happiness is a choice. At best (which I predict for you), you will find your new reason for living. As I said in another thread... join us on the Other Side. The light is really warm and welcoming over here.


----------



## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

The thing with words is that they are just words. Actions speak louder.

I'm going through something similar...STBX and I have been separated since January. There was a time I couldn't stand his face because of all the lies that came out, the secrecy, the pain that was caused and all sorts of other bullcrap.

I was also seeing someone else during separation. Someone whom I value greatly.

But Time has a funny way of flowing. I chose to live without ego. I unleashed my anger on him in a way that was not damning but more so just a "putting it all on the table" sort of way.

And again I was let down. And Time flowed on. 

I stopped seeing the other person....not sure what is going on with that, as I am "single"...divorce is in progress...

And Time has brought me to where I am now. Now there is a man in AA (shock of the world), a man in therapy (whoa) and a man who is truly trying. I see the effort...I just don't trust the words. 

So I flow. I live without ego. I listen. I reflect. I communicate and I have set expectations/boundaries.

And Time flows.

If you are truly done, be done. Say it and move forward. If you don't know, then don't know...and flow. Be honest ...ALWAYS speak your truth to best of your ability....and let it flow.


----------



## JustHer (Mar 12, 2013)

RandomDude, 

Sounds like you made up your mind, but here's a thought. You could always try dating first. Just a date here and there to see if maybe it could grow into something BEFORE you just jump into living together.


----------



## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Oh yea, if this is to work out...ever...it has to start as close to square one again. Dating, etc.

If my STBX and I decide to work it out, he won't be able to move back in until it's been a while. NO way will he just move in without evidence of true change. Could take a long time. Oh well, Time flows...


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

We did date/spend time together during our early seperation before February. Hell come to think of it she has really bad timing to wanna fix our marriage.

Well, I'm seeing her tomorrow morning and afternoon, I'll have a chat with her and see how it goes. Unless she gives me a satisfactory reason why we should even really try I'll be stomping on her attempts at reconciliation tomorrow. Divorce is soon anyways...

Though bah! I'll always have to bloody see her face every weekend!


----------



## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

RandomDude said:


> Though bah! I'll always have to bloody see her face every weekend!


This is EXACTLY why I think you should work on some kind of relationship with her. Don't CALL it anything. Just get to know each other again. She isn't going away. So find out WHO she really is, and learn to find a way to see her as an adversary, not an enemy. Be open to whatever happens. If you have a good sense of identity, and boundaries, you can be friends with anyone. 

If who she is today doesn't fit with you as a romantic partner, then you are not forced to do it. You do get to choose. If you are not strong enough to do that (use boundaries to just be friends) that is something you should work on. For the sake of your daughter. Or, you can choose to ignore her and avoid contact. It's possible. But it won't be as comfortable long term.


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Well, I had a talk with her this afternoon. I told her the circumstances, where we stood, and that at best we can be friends. She told me that I should at least come home for our daughter and like that was going to happen, it'll void our seperation and potentially complicate our divorce. She also seemed convinced that we should spend some time alone to repair our relationship. 

I didn't want to say no to everything so I agreed on our meetups from time to time either than business. So far, well, that's all... meh
Now I have to fit STBXW into schedule, bah!


----------



## JustHer (Mar 12, 2013)

RandomDude, I just went back and read some of your old postings. Not all of them, so I probably missed some stuff. anyway, you and your wife had a lot of problems.

Religion, sex, bondage, money, pushing each others buttons, constant - intense arguing, working 12 hours a day, what roles each of you own in your relationship;

How many of these problems have been worked out?
Have you and/or her been to counseling?


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Religion was worked out years ago, but at the expense of her faith and some of her identity. It was a slow process over the years, she still believes sure, but her faith is alot weaker then when I met her. In a way it's good because I didn't have to put up with her religious BS for a time, but bad because she changed for the worst as well in other areas.

Sex was always an issue, it has never been worked out. Bondage, well it comes under sex. We never had money problems since I took over my business, though for a time she was a crazy spender, but that was resolved without hassle. The games were ending as we both realised our marriage was under threat, but other problems pushed us over the edge. And I no longer work 12 hrs a day since I took over my business.

We've been to counselling and we both already gave reconciliation a shot until February when all hell broke loose and began months of real seperation and bad blood. So far, she has organised a lunch on Friday which I've agreed to. But meh, it's a waste of my time but for my daughter I'll keep the peace with her mum.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

RandomDude said:


> I asked her why she hasn't found someone else and she told me she's not interested in that, and that she wants a family not just another man


Oh goody! She wants to use you so she can have the comfort of more money and a better place to live. Just don't expect her to ever desire you. What a deal!


----------



## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> Hell I think I'll decide after this weekend when I see my daughter again, and find out how happy she would be if mummy and daddy got back together again. But if I get the hint she's already getting accustomed to her new lifestyle despite our broken home, then fk it.
> 
> Guess we'll see


Don't make your daughter responsible for your decisions. That is an unfair position to put her in. If you don't believe me as a stranger on the internet I urge you to speak with an expert before going in that direction. 

Kids don't need to be part of mommy and daddy's issues. They just need to be reassured they are loved by both.


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Well to be fair, she already has our house, and more than half my cash. She's pretty much set and still has financial support from her parents if she needs it. If anyone would benefit financially if we get back together - it's me heh

As for my daughter it's hard not to involve her in my decisions. Though true, it's not her responsibility. But nonetheless she will always play a part regardless.


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

A bit of an update, STBX has been friendly thus far. Been cooking and driving down delivering food to me whenever she's free. Told her to stop but she insists so meh. Probably poisoning me slowly heh

Our "date"/meetup was cozy, she didn't push anything, kept it friendly and comfortable, respected my space/etc. Guess she's been doing counselling/getting advice, her approach is changing or she's just faking it till she makes it. I've been friendly back though admittedly I can't help being rather cold emotionally towards her.

I'm happy just being good friends though I do know that she is dreading our divorce next year and ultimately wants our family back together along with our daughter. I've been refusing emo chat and she's been respectful not to push it.

So far, there's peace. Our daughter's happy somewhat, and no dramas for now.


----------



## Lordhavok (Mar 14, 2012)

Been reading your post for a while now man, this chick has a screw loose. Nobody can make this choice but you. But I can tell you from experience and I'm sure many others can as well, kids will not save a marriage. I know your thinking it will scar your daughter, but I think that your doing better now than you was months ago.


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Aye, she's nuts. I don't know how she expects us to get back together. Even if she does change I'm just too emotionally independent now, and if we don't divorce and I move back in, we'll just be roommates. It would be good to be able to see my daughter after school every day again, but my wife? Meh

So far I'm just playing along keeping the peace but my thoughts are still favoring our impending divorce and I guess she knows this.


----------



## Lordhavok (Mar 14, 2012)

You will most probably see her true colors and intentions when she sees that the divorce is going through. Best of luck to you man, hang in there.


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

True, guess that's when she'll show her claws I bet. Guess I'll play along with her current dance until she trips! Thanks mate


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Update... I don't know, hell I don't know if she's genuine or not right now. Maybe she's genuine about wanting a family again, but not so genuine about making things different. But I dunno, I've been trying to avoid issue-discussions, though I admit she has become more understanding nowadays having removed the stick up her ass.

Kinda still too late though, I feel sorry for her really, she's been really nice so far, and she's not giving up. And no don't even hug me! Bah! It's kinda annoying. I wonder if I should be a jerk and push her away that way instead of pushing her away like a "gentleman"... but that may just cause dramas/more hurt. Bah, but she's not getting the hint. Why can't she just find someone else and leave me alone. She has been getting proposals and that's not really a surprise, so bah! Motherly instincts? Familiarity?

Sucks that I'm stuck with her for the rest of my life thanks to my daughter, even if this divorce goes through I'll STILL have to see her face. Sure, at least its a pretty face, but hides a demon within that I'm happy to live without!


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

RD, I've read your other posts as well and there's no way I'd get involved in this again. Your wife is unstable (you have some issues too as I recall); no doubt she does miss family life and to some extent you as well but it's hard for me to imagine how you guys would build a healthy relationship, which is the only type that would benefit your daughter. And that's if you still loved her, which you don't, and based on your other threads I'm not sure you really loved her when you were still with her. IME, once those feelings are gone they're gone. My dad used to tell me that "once a woman looks at you and the love in her eyes is gone, it's time to be movin' on down the road". I imagine the reverse is true as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Well guess I need to convince her to give up instead of doing all this things for me making me feel guilty and pitying her because I know I still want a divorce.

Maybe it's time to put on my a$$hole persona!


----------



## JustHer (Mar 12, 2013)

RandomDude said:


> Well guess I need to convince her to give up instead of doing all this things for me making me feel guilty and pitying her because I know I still want a divorce.
> 
> *Maybe it's time to put on my a$$hole persona![/*QUOTE]
> 
> ...


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Awww but it would be fun :rofl:

The thing is I already did above, she keeps pushing/pulling regardless. Says she'll never give up on us, understands that I need time and space etc. Now that's all well and good, and we're cool now, just friends.

But I don't like having someone chase me / want something when I know nothing is going to happen. But bah, maybe she'll give up finally post-divorce.


----------

