# Musings from a LD perspective



## ukf32 (Jul 10, 2012)

Hello all, I've been meaning to collate my thoughts as a lower drive wife since I joined TAM...this is just a random collection of things that may or may not be of help or interest to some. I have read and learned so much on this forum but haven't managed to read a vast amount of threads so I apologise if I'm repeating common knowledge or if my opinion offends anyone. I have read many perspectives and action plans about low drive vs high drive but want to re-iterate this is based on my own experience so even if it's not 'right', it's true to me.

A little background...my sex drive waned a few years ago, I can't pinpoint EXACTLY when it happened, or why. To put this in perspective my husband would like 3-4 times a week, I was more than happy with once a month or less. I also lost interest in masturbation. There was a time when I genuinely thought I wouldn't miss sex, even if we never had it again.

My husband and I have talked about it many times and I don't think I have ever been truly aware of how deeply this affected him. We argued about it of course but I think when you're the LD, you just don't know how to tackle it. It's like smoking- you know it's bad for you but while you're doing it you deny to yourself the damage it causes. I think it's important for the LD partner to accept that there is an issue (which is different to accepting responsibility btw) whether or not they are upset by it. We as LD need to accept that it's a problem for our spouses which also makes it a problem for is. You can't deal with something if you don't acknowledge it's existence.

It took me a long time to accept there was a problem. Accepting the problem was the catalyst to change. For so long I wasn't particularly interested in sex> did not feel I was missing anything> didn't/ wouldn't see how much of a problem it was. I don't remember what it was that triggered me to address things but I had read a book that I think may have contributed (forget the name but was a how to be a good wife kind of book, awful book in many respects but the chapter on sex and it's importance in marriage was an eye opener. A lot of things I have since read on here have reinforced that chapter). The first thing I did was go to the doctor to rule out anything medical- I was examined and tested thoroughly and everything was normal. I feel things have improved a lot since then and wanted to share with you some of the thoughts in my head surrounding the quantity incompatibility. Not too much practical advice I'm afraid, mostly ponderings!

Firstly, I'm certain a higher drive man could never increase his wife's drive with more kissing/cuddling/gifts/earning more/doing more chores/ helping with the kids. No amount of this is a sexual turn on. I also know there are women who would disagree. I would suggest to those ladies that your husband doing the dishes etc does not make you want sex, perhaps it is more the relaxation element that allows you the time to think of sex or that you want to reward him. That is external to what I mean, which is kind of that those acts on their own are not arousing. All of those things may be helpful in the wider marriage but not to inspire sex on their own.

My daily life is/was so busy I felt there was just no time to think about sex. Or I did not make the time. I can honestly say that if I did not deliberately think about it, it would probably cross my mind once or twice a month. I have since realised that thinking about my husband in an intimate way and of sex on a regular basis throughout the day has a huge effect on my subsequent drive. (For info- I read sexy books, I visualise situations or imagine sensations and touch.) Previously when my husband would initiate I would be like 'what?!'. I tried to explain to him that it has not crossed my mind all day so I am not in the frame of mind. On subsequent days, this would then lead to him kissing and cuddling me more, hoping that would get me thinking of sex and therefore wanting it. Nope. I came to resent his touch because I felt it was just his way of trying to get sex. I got to thinking that the only times he touched me were when he wanted it. (On a side note, I think it was important for me as a LD wife to not feel that every touch is a preliminary to sex, that both people should enjoy those things without sexual connotation.)

There is SO much more I want to say but it's very late and I'm super tired. I'll try to expand on this another day. In the meantime, if anyone has any comments or opinions they would like to share, I would be very interested to hear them!

Currently- I can appreciate the fact that my husband still desires me. I love the fact that he wants to have sex with me (and only me). I am so ashamed that I berated my husband for wanting me. Sex is important to my husband's happiness and his happiness is important to me. I would not say that I have overcome all my problems but I have made good progress. 

(NB, just to remind myself of things I want to add- porn, notes, esteem & drive)


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## MadeInMichigan (May 8, 2012)

Subscribing to this thread....thanks for sharing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Subscribed as well...very interested in your story.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bkaydezz (Jul 9, 2012)

Very good i have to add as well!!!!

intresting for me, love the take on it!


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

And as a stoopid male I always ask..... "when you do have sex, do you enjoy it and orgasm?" 

I know the "O" is not the be all and end all, but it is a feeling second to none, highly enjoyable and very pleasurable. 

It's not denying your husband I wonder about.... It's why you deny yourself????


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Welcome to this form.

We don't often get LD people who post, and their insight is greatly appreciated.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Looking forward to reading more


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

OP you don't have a problem, you have a mismatch. Anyone's libido is, for them, normal and correct, even if its zero. So the challenge is how you accommodate that in your relationship. One way or another whatever you settle on you'll both be at least a little unhappy about it but at least it's an accommodation of sorts. He'll get a lot less than what he wants and you'll get a lot more than you want. Eventually though, the LD'r person wins out - it's simply the nature of these things.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> So the challenge is how you accommodate that in your relationship. One way or another whatever you settle on you'll both be at least a little unhappy about it but at least it's an accommodation of sorts. He'll get a lot less than what he wants and you'll get a lot more than you want.


The perfect result of a negotiation is a solution that both sides are equally unhappy with. 

Seems a bit odd in the context of sex, but probably just as applicable.


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

ukf32 - I think you are describing many LD women to a T and really appreciate your perspective. A significant issue with mismatched libidos is the lack of understanding between both parties. You are writing and explaining your perspective well - I really think it can be helpful to others.


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

GTdad said:


> The perfect result of a negotiation is a solution that both sides are equally unhappy with.
> 
> Seems a bit odd in the context of sex, but probably just as applicable.


Perfectly said. I think this is not a matter of negotiating, but rather understanding. Part of love is wanting your partner to be happy. If it is a negotiation, both sides will begrudgingly reach an agreement and continue to develop resentment and aversion. If there is an understanding (e.g., he needs this and it is making our marriage better) and appreciation, it can strengthen the marriage.


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

sub'd... this is interesting insight thus far.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Hi uk~

Awesome post! :smthumbup:

I could have written it word for word. 

You are right that you have to get to a place where you see that there is a problem, and you accept that you are part of the problem and therefore, part of the solution. But, both people have to accept that - they have to accept each other and their differences and the part they have played in the overall landscape of the relationship.

Sex for me is very different than it is for my much higher drive husband. Each of us understanding that and being committed to working at it has been what has helped us to overcome our differences.

I am curious as to whether your husband accepts the way you are - that your sexuality is different than his, and that it's perfectly okay for you to be that way?

For me, I always felt somehow defective, until I just decided 'to heck with it - this is the way *I* am!'... my sexuality just does not align with that which is more male-oriented - in being more spontaneously driven, thinking about it often, pursuing it often.

For me, I am more responsive - mine is more inter-twined with his and does not always stand so much on its own. However, when I have someone there to 'inter-twine' with and who is willing to help me pursue that, it has blossomed! Have you found that to be true in your relationship?

Best wishes.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

What a pleasant read! Thank you for a balanced, compassionate perspective.


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## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

Thanks for sharing!! I just would like to add something that we have discovered. You sound somewhat like my wife, but we discovered that, in her case, she has what has been called "responsive desire." You can read about it here:

do you know when you want it? | the dirty normal

I also came across this quote in the book, "The Couple Checkup" (great book BTW)

"About 80 percent of married couples report that the husbands want sex more than the wives do, but some researchers believe this may have more to do with the fact that our culture tends to define desire by the initiation of sex. Debra Taylor and Michael Sytsma found that women experience a receptive type of sexual desire that is triggered once sexual activity begins. They claim that most women will respond positively to sexual advances; they are just biologically less likely to think about it in the first place."

(©2008 David Olson Ph.D.;Amy Olson-Sigg;Peter J. Larson Ph.D, Thomas Nelson Publishing)

So knowing this has really helped. My wife will have sex when she really does not feel like because we both know that once we start, most of the time she will respond...and I mean RESPOND!! She can have her best orgasms when we start with her having a "take it or leave it" attitude.

I just had to realize that her lack of initiation or seeming lack of sex drive has nothing to do with me.


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> Hi uk~
> 
> Awesome post! :smthumbup:
> 
> ...



I was right with you until the bolded part. HD/LD mismatch is equally M:F F:M! My current partner wants it 2-3 times a day! I though I was HD wanting a frequency of 3-4 x/ week!


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## ukf32 (Jul 10, 2012)

I wasn’t sure whether to add this to my first post or not but in the interests of not having an off-putting epic, I will add it here. Thanks to everyone that has taken the time to read and comment on my post. It’s funny, before I started using this forum I didn’t realise how many people there were that have experienced similar things. Reading this forum has made me feel far less isolated about the issues we experience in our marriage.

It was quite hard to write my original post, I am not very good at talking about problems- even with the anonymity of the internet! Previously the only people I have shared this with are my husband and doctor. I have found the frankness and intelligent discussion/advice on this forum have been such an encouraging platform to share my own experiences. 

What I was hoping for from this thread is that HD spouses will realise that while the problem needs addressing, it isn’t anyone’s fault and it’s not healthy to lay or take blame. I also hope that some LD spouses will read this and recognise some parts of it in themselves and hopefully be inspired to make their own changes. It is unfair to think ‘if he/she would only do this or that then maybe I would want sex more’. That is deferring the issue and I don’t think it works that way. You CAN and SHOULD tackle the issue from within. 

It does hurt us too- we feel we are not pleasing our spouse, we feel inadequate, we try to make it up to them in other ways but no amount of laundry/clean house/ nice dinner/cuddles replaces that sexual intimacy they need. It can feel to the LD partner that sex pervades everything; it is all our spouse thinks about. Sometimes we feel objectified, it is hard to understand that for our partner, sexual intimacy is how they bond themselves to us. It is what makes things right to them- the marriage AND probably the world at large. To be consumed by something we are indifferent to is very hard to understand!

"when you do have sex, do you enjoy it and orgasm?" 

This isn’t such an easy question for me as it may appear! I would say that IF we have sex, yes I enjoy it and I orgasm. But it’s the ‘if’ that is the issue. The path leading up to that point is where the obstacles are. In addition, after an enjoyable session / orgasm it is sometimes marred by my thinking that I can relax for a day or two because he is satisfied, I also must admit that I am also a little on edge in case he wants more that same hour/day/night. I do sometimes think ‘Yes, that was wonderful! I am really going to try and want more.’ But somehow that afterglow slips away very quickly. I think as LD I build up and overthink issues that take away from the positive experience.

“I am curious as to whether your husband accepts the way you are - that your sexuality is different than his, and that it's perfectly okay for you to be that way?” 

Hmm, tricky question. My husband can and does accept the way that I am but wouldn’t say he was perfectly okay with it. I probably wouldn’t be looking to make changes if he was content with the situation as it was. He absolutely doesn’t feel his sexual needs override or are more important than how I feel but that does not stop him wanting sex or feeling rejection when he doesn’t get it.

I also wanted to mention porn. I think porn almost certainly can have a place in a healthy marriage. We have shared porn together at times and I would not say I am against it in any way. There have been times when my husband has found release from porn and self-pleasure. I am totally okay with him doing that. But I did notice an impact on his sexual behavior afterwards if he did this excessively. There was a direct correlation to the amount he watched and the acts he would attempt to incorporate or the way he approached me. When our drives were more compatible we had a great variety in our sex life so I would not say there is anything in most 1 on 1 porn that we haven’t tried. It is not the acts themselves that I took issue with. It is more that he became a little desensitized to naughty or extreme things and they became well within his idea of normality. In the wrong situation, it is a big turn off. I hope I’m getting the point across because I don’t want to go into graphic detail! Basically, porn is not an accurate reflection of the sexual lives of most people and I don’t think real sex should mimic porn. This is something we discussed and afterwards we both agreed that this was what was happening. It was only for a short time and we discussed and dissected the issue so that’s all fine. I just think it’s worth mentioning that it can be dangerous for a HD spouse to watch too much porn; it can exaggerate the already existing problems. 

I have already mentioned that the first step to change for me was accepting the problem and some responsibility for it. After getting the medical all clear I was at a loss. I was almost disappointed that nothing in my physiology was a contributing factor, I was hoping for a reason! I was upset, I WANTED to want sex more. I WANTED that compatibility. I had no idea how to make it happen. 

So…I gave myself some tasks- experiments if you like. I tried to have sex when my husband wanted it: I would feign enthusiasm for his benefit and try to be more receptive to him. Sometimes that would allow us to get to the point where I was no longer pretending, I would succumb and enjoy the experience. Overall not too effective though because I felt dishonest and used at times (even though it was my doing). 

The next thing I decided was if I don’t want sex and I can’t make myself want it, I still have to try to meet his need for it. It started as my birthday present to him- writing notes for him with promises on. I gave them to him as a gift to use whenever he liked. The 4 I gave him were- a 30 minute full body massage followed by an ‘erotic’ massage. (Even I didn’t know what that meant at the time I wrote it but I thought it gave me scope for how I felt on the day!), an hour session of either me or him being tied up and ‘exploring imaginatively’ with use of toys optional, and 2 blowjob tokens. I have NO idea how that sounds to all of you, I hope it sounds like the gift I intended it to be and not contrived or clinical! Anyway, I figured that he would enjoy these things and they also allowed me not to feel at all pressured into having sex. When he gave me the 1st one I was almost regretful! I didn’t feel like doing it at all but I did want to honour the gift. Each of the 4 times he used a token I did feel as though I would rather not but along with that- completely at ease, under no pressure to have sex and therefore able to relax and enjoy it. I think this is mostly the reason that we did have sex after each time! I also found that while doing my promises I became turned on too and came to the point of wanting it. 

Again I have rambled and it’s 2am now so I have to end this for now. If I haven’t bored you all to death already I will add more another time! Thanks for reading and again, comments and opinions welcome.


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

Thanks for sharing...... I read it and felt nothing but dread, emptiness and sadness. I have my own issues with my LD spouse (how I hate that word), and what you have written with honesty and compassion, just makes me want to throw up the white flag and give up.

Regardless of what we say do or how we act we are doomed to wonder how we got here, were we the victims of a well thought out bait and switch and that regardless of your enjoyment and "O" it really amounts to absolutely nothing in the end and actually we are the one's creeping you out and are disgusting in the process.

I know you claim to feel bad, and trust me we do too, but how did we get here in the first place?


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

Awesome thread!


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

ukf32 said:


> Firstly, I'm certain a higher drive man could never increase his wife's drive with more kissing/cuddling/gifts/earning more/doing more chores/ helping with the kids. No amount of this is a sexual turn on. I also know there are women who would disagree. I would suggest to those ladies that your husband doing the dishes etc does not make you want sex, perhaps it is more the relaxation element that allows you the time to think of sex or that you want to reward him. That is external to what I mean, which is kind of that those acts on their own are not arousing. All of those things may be helpful in the wider marriage but not to inspire sex on their own.


I really appreciate your willingness to discuss the topic in such an open, respectful way, and I hope you get as much back from the discussion as you give.

In several threads that I've read on the subject, I've seen discussions of the kinds of things that men sometimes do to support their wife, and try to create a connection that may help bridge the gap between different drives. The examples above, however, focus primarily on one aspect of the things that your husband might try to help you connect sexually, though. In other words, you talk about his actions, and the things that he does to try to get you to want sex more. I've often wondered about other dynamics that tend to affect some people more than others, and how its importance varies from couple to couple. Namely, the general sexual atmosphere, and how he may try to add sexual tension, or an edge, to the relationship dynamics in between the times that he's trying to do chores for you, or kissing/cuddles and gifts.

My wife and I used to attend a small, annual marriage retreat at a nearby location in the mountains where we used to live. Every year, it was the same speakers, who have since retired. The awkward part of this was that some of the discussion were group discussions, so you got to hear a lot from other couples, and their struggles. But the classes were really good in helping everyone understand their own sexual relationship needs, and even talked a lot about low drive relationships, and how to make them work peacefully, as a couple. The intent wasn't to try to "fix" low drive partners, but to help resolve some of the friction that might exist between couples with different drives. One thing that came up sometimes, and I think I've seen it on threads here occasionally, is that the partner with the higher drive might focus a lot on actions, like kissing/cuddling, but feel too awkward to really express themself in bringing more positive sexual tension outside of those times, and actually end up making it even harder for the lower drive partner to connect.

My wife and I both enjoy time together with kissing/cuddling and connecting, but she's much more responsive to the things that go on between, like meaningful touches, passionate kisses out of the blue, and raising the tension throughout the day. Maybe this is an aspect that already exists, and I'm just splitting hairs. The work we put into building an atmosphere of sexual tension is something that my wife really stresses when we talk, and she'll bring it up if we let our schedules get in the way of keeping as strong connection in our limited time together each evening.


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

UK - I cannot overstate how awesome and important your posts are. There are so many people going through this issue on this board. You so well describe the LD conundrum and perspective

As the HD person, I have read and understand your position. You exude such empathy for the HD perspective, while really explaining your position. You seem to typify the female that reacts to sexual stimuli, but does not desire it independentl of being turned on.

If you could expand on your repulsion to sex, that would be great. I can understand the not having an independent desire part, but do not understand actively not wanting it. For example, I have no independent desire to rub my wife's back; I would never want to do this if she did not enjoy it. However, knowing she derives pleasure from it, it makes me happy to do it. That is, I want to do something that makes her happy without any sense of repulsion for the act or dread. If I thought that that added to rather detracting from our relationship it would be better (it detracts in the sense of making her more comfortable with me and chase me even less).

I say this because for me (and I assume for your H) it is heartbreaking to hear you have a lack of desire, but are acting because you feel it is right. Extending the back rub analogy, I care about my wife's happiness because I am actively in love with her. I do not act out of an obligation to her. Satisfying her makes me happy. If sex is not painful or demeaning, why is it not another opportunity to make him happy? Is there a hidden resentment? Is it just the frequency?

Is it possible that you've just reached a point where you love him but are not in love with him? Is it possible that another man would spark your interest? Are you too comfortable with him?

A significant amount of space is devoted to unsatisfied men being told to "man up." That is, make yourself more attractive and make your spouse less comfortable; stop being a nice guy and be assertive. Do you feel if he made you less secure your biology might kick in and lust after him more?

Truly, thanks again.


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## ukf32 (Jul 10, 2012)

*@Havesomethingtosay*

I am so sorry that my candour has contributed to you feeling disheartened. I’d like to know- when you discuss your drive differences with your partner, what is the reaction like? So much resentment and hurt can build from the drive mismatch that it can become a real stumbling block for a proper discussion. There has been times we’ve tried to talk about it and all I could hear was the little voice in the back of my head – “*sigh* this is just another attempt to make me feel guilty and get more sex.” (I realize now that was never DIRECTLY the case and I can’t speak for everyone but perhaps that’s a fairly common mindset?) If I could have just let go of that and really listened to how rejected he felt and how necessary sex was to him then maybe I would have changed sooner. It’s very easy as LD to dismiss sex for yourself but also your partner! Back then, I thought sex was mainly about the gratification and on that basis it was easy to see my husband as selfish, always seeking his own pleasure. Understanding the dynamics of sex for my husband and appreciating that was a huge step forward.

Would you be happy for your partner to understand your feelings and needs and to accommodate those AND enjoy doing so? (Would say this is where I’m at right now- has been an enlightening path and has added a lot of strength and enjoyment to our marriage, for both of us. If you talk lots and really understand each other and what sex means for you both this is absolutely achievable- but only you know if that would be enough.) Or is it more that you simply want them to WANT sex? (I think this aspect lies mainly with your partner to pro-actively take steps to increase their own drive. It is possible but seeing past the issues that have built up and properly seeing sex from your HD partner’s perspective is the key.) I don’t think it’s optimistic to think you can reach a happy medium; you can accommodate both of your drives with a bit of work and a lot of understanding. 

As for how did we get here? I have really thought about this and I don’t think there’s a general consensus answer. For me I *think* it was a lot of factors- university, young children, moving house and financial concerns…all of these things ‘got in the way’. With children sex was not a consideration during the day and at night I would usually pick sleep over sex. I would go so far as to say that declining intimacy became a habit and not having sex became my normal. It was not a conscious decision (which also makes it easy to have the view that ‘I am this way by design not selection’ and therefore accepting of the situation.) But because I have seen my own drive decline I KNOW it isn’t a stable, set-in-stone thing. I know it is subject to change and fluctuation and that makes me hopeful that I can increase my own drive in time. 

*@Halien *

In my experience, his attempts to kiss and touch me at times that weren’t a direct initiation still felt that like they were. So much revolved around sex that it felt that everything that he did was a cloaked attempt to get it! I think it is my viewpoint that has changed rather than any of his actions, he still touches and kisses me in the same ways he did before, I am just more receptive to that now. I think what you said about building sexual tension is a very important ingredient to put physically intimacy at the forefront of an LD’s mind. BUT the LD has to be receptive to that because otherwise it carries the danger of feeling like pressure!

*@SprucHub*

There have been times I have been repulsed by sex but mostly it was indifference. To elaborate on repulsion- that mainly came into play where there was a period of time where I felt pressure and unhappiness, where I could see nothing in sex as an expression of intimacy and love. A repulsion to sex I *think* came from the act itself. If I went along with it and my heart wasn’t in it (you do feel sometimes that it’s the only way), everything about it felt wrong. My husband would say or do something, change positions, touch me too roughly or too gently, kiss me too hard or sloppily etc etc and I would find it an enormous turn off. Absolutely not his fault because any number of those things would feel awesome if I was engaged in sex. But if I wasn’t it would feel unpleasant and that stays in your mind when you subsequently think of sex. You know like those psychology experiments of classic conditioning? That kind of thing.

If sex is not painful or demeaning, why is it not another opportunity to make him happy? Is there a hidden resentment? Is it just the frequency? 

Getting short on time so I’ll address these briefly- This is the point I am at now; I certainly do see it this way. Yes, I try to meet his need for sex but have learned to enjoy doing so. And more often than not these days, I find I become aroused too. I have made huge progress and see sex in a much more positive way now. For me I wouldn’t say resentment was a factor in my LD so can’t comment. The frequency question is hard! Yes he wants more than me and that is a problem. But I don’t imagine he would find it very satisfying if we had poor quality sex on a daily basis (!)

Is it possible that you've just reached a point where you love him but are not in love with him? Is it possible that another man would spark your interest? Are you too comfortable with him? 

Absolutely not. My husband is my world and I love him as a man, a father, a friend, a lover. I find him physically and emotionally attractive and I always have. Other men hold no interest for me at all. I AM very comfortable with him. BUT I don’t take him for granted. 

A significant amount of space is devoted to unsatisfied men being told to "man up." That is, make yourself more attractive and make your spouse less comfortable; stop being a nice guy and be assertive. Do you feel if he made you less secure your biology might kick in and lust after him more? 

Hmm, as I said before I’m not sure anything my husband would have done could have made much difference to my drive or feelings about sex. The major changes had to come from me, from within. If he’d have changed his personality I think I would have found that less attractive. But possibly because my husband is not a ‘treat ‘em mean’ kind of person and that is who I love. 

As for being assertive (and I may get shot down for this!) - I think *most* Alpha males are naturally more attractive to *most* females, I do find confidence an attractive quality. I think even the strongest and most independent of women can appreciate their men having the capacity to be stronger than they are. (But I don’t think that has to be at the expense of being a ‘nice guy’, the 2 concepts aren’t mutually exclusive). That’s a whole discussion on its own!


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

UK - is there anything you have questions about? Seems like you understand your H and the issues really well, but thought I'd offer since your insight is so helpful/impressive.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

ukf32

I have just one small counter observation to your insightful posts:



ukf32 said:


> It can feel to the LD partner that sex pervades everything; it is all our spouse thinks about. Sometimes we feel objectified....


"Objectified" (In the sense that you appear to be using the term) is a very good way to describe how HD spouses often feel themselves. They feel that their partner only loves the things that can be extracted from the relationship (e.g. Money, material things, acts of service, etc.) and does not truly love the person for who they are.

When my first child was born and my wife went off into some emotional la-la land where I only existed as a paycheck, that's exactly how I felt.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Hi UK,

I also wanted to thank you for your courage in discussing what it means to be LD. I especially appreciate your candor in saying that successfully dealing with this issue requires the LD spouse to take responsibility, adjust his or her thought process, and be open to cheerful sex even if that's not on your mind.

In coming out this way you are a great resource to the HD among us still stumbling their way through this issue. However, you also bravely opened yourself up to criticism from HD spouses asking why you bothered to marry AND from LD spouses who have no desire to improve and would resent any suggestion that they be held accountable for their poor sexual response.

At the end of the day, I agree 100% that lack of desire at onset is absolutely no obstacle to a satisfying sex life, even with a substantial mismatch in innate drive. I've never really accepted the notion that too much sex is harmful to one's well-being (assuming a person who is emotionally and physically healthy), for the same reasons as you noted above.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

I really want to thank you for honestly sharing your experience. As a LD spouse, I can SO identify with you, and it makes me feel like I am not quite so alone. I too, am really trying to please my husband, and sometimes I just feel so depressed because I can't seem to naturally want or crave sex as much as I should. 

I plan ahead (without him thinking I've planned ahead) to try to get in the right mind-frame for sex. A lot of the time I feel like "what IS wrong with me." I do my best to be enthusiastic even when I'm not in the mood because the last thing my husband wants is to feel like he's taking advantage of me. 

It's really a depressing situation sometimes. But I've never been one to give up, and I love my husband. Thanks again for sharing.


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

My spouse happily notes that the majority of women she knows are all LD and find it amusing their "loving" spouses are all "horndogs" chasing them around. 

To call someone HD with hopes and aspirations of maybe 1-3X's/wk I also find amusing......

Look it is what it is..... UKf32 thanks for the honesty but I stand by what you have written, that it really is a sad indictment that sex that you've admitted is enjoyable, that I don't think he pesters you for a whole lot, is so reviled and such a turnoff.....


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

You know what, I LOVE honesty, I hate when someone veils their true feelings- because it is what others want to hear... and for this I commend UKf32... but still the reality is not easy to read....



> *Ukf32 said*: I'm certain a higher drive man could never increase his wife's drive with more kissing/cuddling/gifts/earning more/doing more chores/ helping with the kids. No amount of this is a sexual turn on.





> I can honestly say that if I did not deliberately think about it, it would probably cross my mind once or twice a month





> On subsequent days, this would then lead to him kissing and cuddling me more, hoping that would get me thinking of sex and therefore wanting it. Nope. I came to resent his touch because I felt it was just his way of trying to get sex. I got to thinking that the only times he touched me were when he wanted it.





> Sometimes we feel objectified, it is hard to understand that for our partner, sexual intimacy is how they bond themselves to us. It is what makes things right to them- the marriage AND probably the world at large. To be consumed by something we are indifferent to is very hard to understand!





> I tried to have sex when my husband wanted it: I would feign enthusiasm for his benefit and try to be more receptive to him. Sometimes that would allow us to get to the point where I was no longer pretending, I would succumb and enjoy the experience. Overall not too effective though because I felt dishonest and used at times (even though it was my doing).





> When he gave me the 1st one I was almost regretful! I didn’t feel like doing it at all but I did want to honour the gift.





> There have been times I have been repulsed by sex but mostly it was indifference. To elaborate on repulsion- that mainly came into play where there was a period of time where I felt pressure and unhappiness, where I could see nothing in sex as an expression of intimacy and love. A repulsion to sex I *think* came from the act itself. If I went along with it and my heart wasn’t in it (you do feel sometimes that it’s the only way), everything about it felt wrong. My husband would say or do something, change positions, touch me too roughly or too gently, kiss me too hard or sloppily etc etc and I would find it an enormous turn off.



I have a question....

This thread really got to me last night....... I can only entertain the What IF's... If what we have ...has been taken or RIPPED from us..... and left barren somehow. This is how I relate to this thread. 

I sat there reading .... I entertained the thought of ...IF my husband was married to you Ukf32.....and this was his reality.....or I felt like this, it was MY reality...(either scenerio)... because of our history of him putting himself DOWN with the SLIGHTEST hint of me not being in the mood (for instance I had a book in my hand) .....he would just roll over.... I didn't even reject the man hardly, I didn't even know he was suffering ! (we all have our stories on here)... he was SO freaking overly sensitive to *MY DESIRE*, that the whole act would be utterly HOLLOW without MY wanting him....

I mean it was EVERYTHING to him, us having sex hinged on it ! 

Just imagining again....If he was in these shoes.... the man would be suffering, depressed, life would have lost it's color indeed, the sun would not be shining in the morning, it would all be dreary. He would be faithful enough to stay and endure...put on a smile ...but hollow, dying inside..... Just going through the motions awaiting his wife to get aroused once a month. That is what he did with me- half the time he waited for me to come on to him. But his wait was never longer 6-7 days. 

He was not the type to EVER push himself on me, the near thought of me not being in the mood -he'd go limp. Repulsed -it would KILL him inside, his touch would dry up. 

Then there is someone like myself.... judge me if you will... I would never be able to LIVE with this... I would NEED to feel genuine lustful passionate desire on a regular basis oozing from my spouse...with flirting & initiation.....if not, I would be tempted to look for it elsewhere... I would feel like I was missing something I craved so deeply -that it would upset my entire being.... I would likely be a monster to live with, I would have to leave such a marraige.... Love would not be enough. I understand it is nobody's fault.... I could see even resenting that "fact". 

I would like to know... if you can UNDERSTAND this position also? IT seems your husband has stood this out (I do wonder how many yrs between the loss of your sex drive & this newly found undestanding was?)...he has been very patient - for love... and that is wonderful.....God Bless you both...truly.... but I don't think everyone could in reality.... even with the efforts, I can see if others would feel - so much would still be missing. 

The words spoken by "havesomethingtosay" resonates with me also - as very very sad, basically hopelessness for the High driver -because they can do NOTHING, thier hands are tied in this, it is all dependent their spouse coming to such a "realization" (which many never do) and to reach within herself , it is all about mustering something up & just doing to make the other happy....sure a little desire comes once you get going, but is it ever EARTH shattering, is it ever such a euphoric high that you want to do it again the next day ! It sounds the answer is.... NO. 

I wouldn't be able to get past feeling every time I wanted to make love, asking myself ...."am I being a burden? " 

How does one get past such feelings....... Maybe your husband could post on this thread to help others understand .


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

UK,
I have written many posts from the other side of this divide. I have to tell you, your posts on this thread show a mix of self awareness, candor and empathy that is rarely seen - anywhere. Not just on this board, anywhere. I believe that at various points in our marriage my W has felt as you do. At other times she has been very into it. When her desire leaves the building I find myself standing on a small square tile high in the air. A place where one small step forward pushes her steadily into resentment from too much sex. One step backward leaves me tense, angry and resentful that we are having too little sex. One step to the left and I am being too nice "in general", lowering her desire even more. And while that magic step to the right, (being less available and having more edge with her) SEEMS to raise her desire, I think there are times where her seemingly "sexual" reponse is actually a mix of guilt avoidance and anxiety management. I "believe" the anxiety is primarily a fear that I will stop "LOVING" her. Not that I would physically leave her. I think she knows I wouldn't "leave" her as in the big D. But the loss of LOVE (I will always lowercase love her - we are pals) - which is no more directly controllable to by me than her desire is for her, would be a very difficult thing for both of us. 

This past weekend - she was dressed to kill 3 days in a row. Turns out that even in menopause she has a monthly hormonal spike. . I am just glad she still has at least has 3 days a month of lust in her.

Maybe I should change my travel schedule from 4 away/3 at home to 27 away and 3 at home. Sort of kidding - though - the current travel schedule DOES help her desire level. 




ukf32 said:


> I wasn’t sure whether to add this to my first post or not but in the interests of not having an off-putting epic, I will add it here. Thanks to everyone that has taken the time to read and comment on my post. It’s funny, before I started using this forum I didn’t realise how many people there were that have experienced similar things. Reading this forum has made me feel far less isolated about the issues we experience in our marriage.
> 
> It was quite hard to write my original post, I am not very good at talking about problems- even with the anonymity of the internet! Previously the only people I have shared this with are my husband and doctor. I have found the frankness and intelligent discussion/advice on this forum have been such an encouraging platform to share my own experiences.
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

Maybe I am not as obsessed or as consumed about sex (or refuse to acknowledge) to consider it rejection and to have spun into depression, or a cycle of self-loathing. 

Sex is very personal and the most intimate of acts, and regardless of any well thought out debate (or argument), one can not say "well I have met your emotional needs, pull my weight around the house, do special things, organize and send you on vacations & financially more then pull my weight (in fact support the family), you must now have sex with me." 

Heck I've told my wife "anything you think you are doing for me and is important to me, I'll pass on it and trade it for sex anytime".... Sorry that line of thinking and thought process does not compute for the spouse not wanting and denying sex, which makes no sense when they do have "O's" all the time.


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I wouldn't be able to get past feeling every time I wanted to make love, asking myself ...."am I being a burden? "
> 
> How does one get past such feelings.......


"Am I being a burden?" is almost exactly how I feel. Like she is rolling her eyes when I am not looking. I will never initiate any more. My W's inability to understand or appreciate the meaningfulness is like a lead weight on my chest.

In my head I know she loves me, but I do not at all feel it. I feel like my heart is pumping air. Occasionally it will go away. Sometimes it is anger, sometimes sadness, sometimes a mixture. Sometimes it is indifference, but then I feel badly for my W.


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## ukf32 (Jul 10, 2012)

*@ocotillo*

That’s a very interesting addition to the thread, thanks. I have read threads that support your idea so have to agree that seems to be the case. Definitely something I’d like my husband’s opinion on. I think the idea of feeling objectified must have roots in situations where any imbalance is breeding resentment. So if a husband (or wife) is the breadwinner and feels their partner is not sharing an equivalent load in other areas of their life, then that is more likely. Similarly with domestic responsibility, child rearing...and of course sex. Would you agree? And yes, that’s not a healthy or nice feeling- whoever is feeling it or why.

I’m not sure whether this is an issue for my husband or not, though he has been the main earner for our household since having children, that was a mutual decision and I don’t ask for more of him. It would break my heart if he did feel I was only here for what I could milk him for! I would still value him as much if he was standing in front of me with only the shirt on his back and in actual fact he wasn’t working when we met, until we had children his commitment to work was tenuous at best. I deal with everything else- household chores, the children, laundry, cooking. I would never expect him to work full time and then come home to having more to do. We don’t buy each other gifts other than birthdays etc. Anyway, that is by the by...suffice to say I expect nothing more of my partner than his willingness to love and be loved.

I’m not saying there’s a right or wrong, I only have my own experience to draw from BUT I could not exist in a marriage that is constructed or maintained as merely a mutually beneficial arrangement. Yes it has to be that way to a certain extent but without love, it means nothing. I struggle to see the fulfilment in that scenario. Despite our issues, I married for love and I stay married for love.( On a side note- Perhaps it is just too easy for a LD person to see sex and love as separate entities where for a HD person, they are utterly interlinked?)

*@momtwo4*

I’m interested to know what it is that you do to get yourself in the frame of mind for sex? This is something I’m exploring at the moment to increase my own drive. I’m finding that the old adage of women being stimulated in the mind is true- my brain has been the most useful tool up to yet. As I mentioned earlier, I have so far explored erotic writing and taking time out in the day to actively think about physical intimacy and to appreciate and find pleasure in the fact that my husband desires me. Enjoying the fact that he feels that way is a huge step for me; I’m at the point now where I would miss that hugely. I’ve found I feel lucky that his desire is still so strong after the length of our time together.


*@SimplyAmorous* 


I apologise but I’m struggling with what your question is here! If you mean can I understand the importance of sex and of me wanting it…then yes, of course. I can never profess to REALLY know what it feels like in my husband’s shoes, I can only empathise. I’m not sure about the right/wrong element, I think it’s dangerous to suggest that either partner’s drive or feelings are more valid. Sex is obviously very important to him but I wouldn’t go so far as to say it is his reason for living as you seem to imply.

I’m not sure that lack of sex ultimately means the love you share disappears. Perhaps I’m wrong, be interesting to know what people think about that- is the amount you love someone proportional to the physically intimacy you share? I imagine that is extremely subjective and for some people, a marriage may hinge on a healthy sex life. 

It’s interesting that your partner’s prerequisite for sex is your desire. When things were very bad I asked my husband something like – would he want to have sex daily if I was willing but not necessarily turned on. I was frustrated with feeling inadequate and not being able to meet his needs and wanted to know if just having sex was enough. The answer was no (perhaps obviously!). 

Something you mentioned worries me a little- you said if you weren’t getting ‘lustful, passionate desire’ from your partner that you would look for it elsewhere. The understanding I have reached is that my husband needs intimacy and sex for closeness and bonding, in addition to the physical pleasure. Understanding this as well as his feelings upon rejection is what motivated me to make changes and the concerted effort to increase my drive. What concerns me about what you said is that if you could go look (and find) it elsewhere then sex becomes something different. I would suggest that if you were to hook up with any old person, bonding would not be a consideration…just the gratification and attention?


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

Thank for your post. I hope it will help many here.

I see where you are trying to increase your drive.

What, if any, methods are working?


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## ukf32 (Jul 10, 2012)

@emerald

I've already touched on things I feel have worked in some of my other posts but to clarify, the things I felt have had some success in increasing my enjoyment or desire for sex are things that plant sex in the forefront of my mind. No magic formula and all very basic!

Reading- a range of erotic literature. Even reading and talking on the forum are helping! Even though the things I read and talk about are not directly arousing, they mean I am thinking about sex. 

Thinking- I think it's so easy for life to get in the way of an active desire, deliberately taking steps to ensure sex is on my mind has helped SO much with increasing my drive. I make sure all I think about is positives, if some of my old negative thinking tries to make an appearance I actively counter it with something good. That could be a previous enjoyable intimate encounter, a potential situation, my husband's reaction to my touch or initiation...all sorts of things.

Initiating- I have promised myself I will try to start things off, I'm aiming for once a week with this. When my husband is around I will touch or kiss him, whisper little things that allude to sex. I feel that taking control in this way is also helping to ease some of the pressure I have felt previously to have sex. As someone mentioned earlier, these small things help to build up a sexual tension for us both. I have found that I enjoy turning him on, teasing him and found pleasure in making him want me! I think this has had the biggest impact on my husband actually. He is so happy when I initiate, he adores feeling sexy and wanted. 

I think that covers the main things I'm doing at the moment. Do you have anything to add to those?


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

Thank you ukf! You are a wonderful wife & your hubs is very lucky.

I am married to an LD man so different situation here; I was curious if you found a way to increase sexual desire & it sounds like you have.


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## ukf32 (Jul 10, 2012)

In response to some comments I've read here and on other threads, I have 1 simple question. From what you've read here and based on your opinion and experience:

Am I doing enough?

I feel I have made good progress but am disheartened to read things that allude to the fact that no matter what I do it will not be enough. If I don't reach the point where my desire for sex is autonomous, is our marriage eventually doomed to failure? If I don't want sex automatically and on my own in the future, are all the steps I'm taking just a futile attempt at resolving the issue and merely prolonging my husband's discontent? Failing all else- would I be better off giving the impression that all is 'fixed'?


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## effess (Nov 20, 2009)

> He is so happy when I initiate, he adores feeling sexy and wanted.


This sentence almost brought me.to tears. my wife sounds alot like the OP. except my wife isn't interested in "fixing it". she's resigned to that's how it is. men want IT and women don't and that's all. when i get really frustrated and voice them she'll make an effort for a couple weeks but it goes back to normal. 
The reason the quoted sentence moved me is this idea is totally over her head. Im not someone to be desired. Im just another chore. and my needs are just a burden. 
It makes me feel so lonely, so ugly. i miss the days when i was a priority and not a afterthought. 
Kudos to the OP that she's trying to meet her husband halfway instead of just placate him. and Im envious of her husband that he's with someone who loves him enough to try.


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## JustAnotherMan (Jun 27, 2012)

"I’m not sure that lack of sex ultimately means the love you share disappears. Perhaps I’m wrong, be interesting to know what people think about that- is the amount you love someone proportional to the physically intimacy you share? I imagine that is extremely subjective and for some people, a marriage may hinge on a healthy sex life. "

From my experience, yes, the lack of sex with my wife means she does not love me enough to make my needs a priority. You can read the words of the men and woman here that get rejected to the point of losing their self worth. It is very real and painful and beyond my words to describe. 

Ultimately these situations lead to Divorce and Affairs. Both very sad and very painful.

UK, I am very impressed with your efforts to regain the intimacy with your husband. How long did this libido difference go before you decided to study and learn and see what other people have done in this situation and begin to make such large personal attempts to regain some desire?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

ukf32 said:


> I feel I have made good progress but am disheartened to read things that allude to the fact that no matter what I do it will not be enough. If I don't reach the point where my desire for sex is autonomous, is our marriage eventually doomed to failure? If I don't want sex automatically and on my own in the future, are all the steps I'm taking just a futile attempt at resolving the issue and merely prolonging my husband's discontent? Failing all else- would I be better off giving the impression that all is 'fixed'?


Good questions.

Speaking from my own perspective, it did bother me that my ex had nearly zero desire for me sexually. The way I would describe it as that she viewed me as a well-off and generous friend who would support her and ask nothing in return.

I would have greatly preferred that she actually want me enough to initiate sex multiple times per week. However, I would have accepted an honest responsive desire (not refusing and allowing herself to get in the mood once started) or at least a desire to please me where she could provide cheerfully even if no desire manifested on her part (either before or during sex).

My take is that, as long as your husband is reasonable sensitive, there is plenty of hope. I think you being genuinely willing to please him will be enough. You could:

1) Set a calendar entry to initiate sex. You almost certainly have a cellphone, paper calendar, or e-mail service with a calendar function; make use of it.

2) Clearly tell him that you might not desire sex for yourself but you find great joy and satisfaction in being there for him.

3) Be adventurous sexually. Nothing makes it worse for a guy than having a limp wife. Do oral, games, toys, etc.

There are some guys that absolutely do not want sex unless their wives are horny for them. Anything less gets relegated to "duty sex" and they do not grasp the concept of "cheerful giving". IMO this is indicative of ego and self-gratification ("look at what I stud I am) rather than a desire to connect. If you do the above and your husband is not like this you should be fine.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

ukf32 said:


> *@SimplyAmorous *
> 
> I apologise but I’m struggling with what your question is here! If you mean can I understand the importance of sex and of me wanting it…then yes, of course.


 My question basically boiled down to this...would you blame & feel your husband is a selfish no good man ....IF his longing for passionate DESIRE in a wife had more urgency & weight that you could possibly understand ...If it still greived him so much, even after some efforts (though now you are clearly making progress I see :smthumbup....but had he decided earlier...WHEN IT WAS BAD & dry like a desert.....had he decided to leave the marriage -to find another woman who is more sexually compatible along with all the other beautiful things that marriage gives. Would you have spoken of him badly for making that choice *??* This was my question. 

As someone who feels this is a HUGE part of the package, not something that we downplay saying it isn't everything, for HIGH DRIVERS, we WANT our spouse to FEEL it is everything --when this is aligned, near everything else falls into place ! Or so I feel. Experts say even though SEX is less than 10 % of a marraige ... when a couple is having issues here...it then becomes 90% of the problems. I have to agree. 

How about this...I read in one of my Sex therapist books ...that In our sex lives, this is one area WE WANT SOME SELFISHNESS.. we don't like the idea our partner is just "pleasing us" for our sakes... this looses the excitement immediately... we want with everything in us ---to know that they are *SELFISHLY ENJOYING THE ACT AS MUCH AS WE ARE !!*- that is what PASSION IS all about! Noone wants this one sided, we want to see the euphoria in our spouses faces, feel it in their bodies ... we want to know we are pleasuring the living daylights out of them - this is like a HIGH. Who needs drugs! 

Me personally, (again, judge me if you will).. I could never be satisfied knowing that my partner was not as much into sex as me ...and at the onset always worrying I am asking too much. If he even found the smallest repulsion into me wanting his body.... I would have such an overload of emotions on this...deeply hurt, withering ...and anger at the same time... 

I am not a bad person, really.. but this is not an area I could deal with... I can handle a slew of kids, if $$ was tight - I could bust my butt working 3 jobs if I had too, I could be patient & a peace maker with idiots, I could live on a dime & stick by my husband like the most faithful woman around... but take away a flourishing mutually sexually satisfying...."his body is mine & my body is his for our intended pleasure" sex life..I'd grow slowly miserable......I need to know my partner LOVES it and craves it nearly as much as me on a regular happening basis, without a tinge of worry I am asking TOO much or being a "burden". 

I said this in another low drive thread ....I think we are all "High maintainence" in one area or another... this I am admittably "high maintenence"....there is no suger coating it. Others can spit on me & say I am devaluing love if they want. I am just being honest... as you have been in how you feel. 



> Sex is obviously very important to him but I wouldn’t go so far as to say it is his reason for living as you seem to imply.


 It is not my reason for existing, but if I want to be walking on the clouds of marital "fullfillment" ....Yeah, it's HIGH up there....it brings the sun to each new morning, it inspires me, it is a walking on the clouds, it does so much it is hard to put into words even.


Me & mine's sex life lacked in the past, once a weekers (at least)...for 19 long yrs.... (he always wanted more, too passive -I was clueless to his pain ).. ..but I have felt, lived and experienced the heightened renewal and sheer JOY overflowing of a more consistent nearly every day sex life....OMG what that did for his vulnerabilty towards me , my admiration for him, how he handled me in "my need" -his attitude, his enthusiam... I will never take this man for granted again...He is my hero. It was always good before, but now we've grown new heights... SEX was an awakening for us...flowing towards each other the way it was always meant to be....so Yes, this IS monumental to me. 



> I’m not sure that lack of sex ultimately means the love you share disappears.


 It would for ME... for him, he said he would still love me... but loving someone doesn't always stop a slow seething growing of resentment -depending on the circumstances & attitudes of each partner, even thing out of our control, this can still happen. THIS is what one needs to worry about ...even my husband grew resentment towards me when he didn't feel DESIRED by me, he suffered silently --My thread on this here (has a *Resentment Test *in the 1st line)

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...l-etc-how-robs-us-intimacy-we-crave-most.html



> Perhaps I’m wrong, be interesting to know what people think about that- is the amount you love someone proportional to the physically intimacy you share? I imagine that is extremely subjective and for some people, a marriage may hinge on a healthy sex life.


 Yes, for me, I would have to say, my happiness does hinge much on how we connect sexually -emotionally, and again, DEISRE for each other. My husband feels the same... 

(example)....One morning, he was frisky...after having sex the night before, I told him I didn't think I could "get mine" again & offered myself sideways, he didn't go for it... I looked at him.. his eyes were a little glassy, I asked what was wrong, he asked me if I was slowing down.. THAT is how much MY desire means to him... I was like "Hell no, I am not slowing down, I love sex !" ...which brightend him right back up... but that was so very very touching to me. He also feels it will be a very very sad day if I loose this feisty "throw him down on the bed " & want to strip his clothes off attitide. 

I also remember the 1st him he didn't get his- told me he could wait till the next day .... I remember these feelings welling up inside of me, took me by surpise...that he didn't care -- WE ARE BOTH HOPELESSLY SENSITIVE to these things. 

I guess we need :BoomSmilie_anim: shot ! 

I guess that IS who are are - at least a good freaking match!




> It’s interesting that your partner’s prerequisite for sex is your desire. When things were very bad I asked my husband something like – would he want to have sex daily if I was willing but not necessarily turned on. I was frustrated with feeling inadequate and not being able to meet his needs and wanted to know if just having sex was enough. The answer was no (perhaps obviously!).


 But this is my whole point, I would have the same answer as your husband did, I would NEVER EVER in this life want to engage in burdensome unenjoyed sex (you see how sensitve we both are -hell that would put a fork in us !!)..... we both see that as nothing but demeaning, even hurtful and further it would irritate and pressure your other half anyway, everything about it is disgusting to me.....

But yet...that would not stop the flood of emotions of hurt, even anger, frustration....that my spouse did not have a sex drive -but once a month!!! That is only 12 times a year! That he or she passionately wanted to take me down & screw me.... that would seriously PI$$ me off. 



> Something you mentioned worries me a little- you said if you weren’t getting ‘lustful, passionate desire’ from your partner that you would look for it elsewhere.


 I wouldn't cheat, I wear my feelings on my sleeve, he would know a long long time before I was heading out the door, I would divorce over it though....I do believe the craving of something I wanted deeply would overwhelm me. 



> The understanding I have reached is that my husband needs intimacy and sex for closeness and bonding, in addition to the physical pleasure. Understanding this as well as his feelings upon rejection is what motivated me to make changes and the concerted effort to increase my drive.


 I see your post where you HAVE successfully increased it -with thinking more on such things -- that is wonderful ! So NOW...you feel honest DESIRE welling up ?? How often does this happen ???

If you have managed to do this... that is AMAZING, something you should shout from the rooftops.

And I also wonder....how many years your husband suffered through this ?? I would imagine every man on this thread grieves that their wife may never feel that itchy "want to take him -grab his manhood & make love to him" feeling -that I am sure he fantasizes about. One reason porn has such an allure. 



> What concerns me about what you said is that if you could go look (and find) it elsewhere then sex becomes something different. I would suggest that if you were to hook up with any old person, bonding would not be a consideration…just the gratification and attention?


 I believe one of the reasons I fell so deeply in love with my husband is how he made me feel about myself - that "desiring" me all the time...written all over him, wanting to get touchy feely dirty when we were alone. If that was missing in our dating yrs (even though I made him wait for intercourse), I can assure you, I would have grown bored with him!! Oh yes...this was a huge part of our attraction & connection even then......I was showered with such attention.  Still love it! 

Today....it is more the "emotional connection" that drives us ... but we still want that orgasm.....I know this is part of the chase & passion too.... so in this way, I am feeling... his "selfish need" and yeah... this fullfills!


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

ukf32 said:


> I think the idea of feeling objectified must have roots in situations where any imbalance is breeding resentment. So if a husband (or wife) is the breadwinner and feels their partner is not sharing an equivalent load in other areas of their life, then that is more likely. Similarly with domestic responsibility, child rearing...and of course sex. Would you agree?


I agree that resentment becomes an issue for both LD and HD persons, but I think the reasons may be a little different: An HD person does not personally think of sex in the context of equivalent load, domestic responsibility, child rearing, etc. 

For an HD person, sex is one of the finer things in life. Perhaps the finest of them all. Therefore, for an HD person, it typically comes down to a simple bifurcation: You either love your partner or you don't. You are either physically attracted to your partner, or you aren't. In their mind, that is the only reasonable explanation for avoiding sex.

Of course we both know that this is a needless bifurcation. But trying to show love to an HD person in the absence of sex is like trying to show love to an LD person using only sex. The message is lost and the person feels unloved and unappreciated.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

ukf -

Only your husband can really answer your question "Are you doing enough."


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

ukf32 said:


> In response to some comments I've read here and on other threads, I have 1 simple question. From what you've read here and based on your opinion and experience:
> 
> *Am I doing enough?*
> 
> I feel I have made good progress but am disheartened to read things that allude to the fact that no matter what I do it will not be enough. If I don't reach the point where my desire for sex is autonomous, is our marriage eventually doomed to failure? If I don't want sex automatically and on my own in the future, are all the steps I'm taking just a futile attempt at resolving the issue and merely prolonging my husband's discontent? Failing all else- would I be better off giving the impression that all is 'fixed'?


Hi ukf ~

No one but your husband can truly answer this question for you. 

But, in your own heart and mind, do YOU feel like you are doing enough?

I went out and read through the other thread you have in the CWI forum. It looks as if there have been some bumps along the marital road, and you expressed concern in that thread that you sometimes will occasionally still be overwhelmed with sad/bad feelings of your husband's affair even years after it has happened. Do you feel that you have worked through all of those feelings? Do you feel that you have forgiven your husband?

Do you feel that you take active ownership in the betterment of yourself and the betterment of your marriage everyday? Are you able to talk with your husband about your cares and concerns? Is he able to talk with you about his? Do you actively listen to him when he does?

Marriage isn't just one person in the boat pulling the oar. It's TWO of you in that boat together, each pulling on the oars, working together.

The BETTER question may be "Are you BOTH doing enough - for the other?" 

Best wishes.


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## rj700 (Jun 22, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> ukf32
> 
> I have just one small counter observation to your insightful posts:
> 
> ...


:iagree:

This really rings true. I don't believe that most LD spouses truly understand this.


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

More & more depressed reading this thread......

Why is it so difficult to understand that if you had a good sex life prior and early in the marriage, that it slipping away is a terrible thing especially if you have (pardon my superficiality) maintained looks, hygiene, weight and aged gracefully? Yep there are ebbs and flows, ups & downs, outside stresses, physical health, kids, finances and the like that will affect the above, but damn, the sacrifices made in a marriage is a two-way street.

Never do I want to hear a woman say (yes sexist) that they cooked or cleaned, kept the house in order or drove the children around and that kept them from "getting" in the mood for sex or that the husband should value that.

The spouse would surely give up so so much of these superficialities for more sex. 

And heck be honest..... When you married did you not have expectations of your spouse to grow as a person and if they are the "breadwinner" to be successful and advance in their career? The HD spouse for lack of a better word expects sex to be maintained or grow thanks to the comfort and within the confines of a happy marriage. 

We know that there will be periods where sex is off the table and the mood killed and can roll with them, but when things are good and there is little more then the day to day to worry about and we hear "not tonight, I have another load to do and I must do dishes, because I won't use the dishwasher...." we know that it is another day lost.

And you wonder why we have mid-life crisis'...... 

So OP, again thanks for the thread and your honesty, but I do wonder if you really understand the depth of why you shun sex and your husband when everything works.

As said men are stoopid and I am particularly stoopid, but if you "O" 90% of the time and you can get in the mood and "O" say 1X/wk, try 2X's/wk and if you "O" both times, why not 3X/wk? 

Oh yea and for the majority we are talking what, 30 mins max of an imposition?


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

ukf32 said:


> In response to some comments I've read here and on other threads, I have 1 simple question. From what you've read here and based on your opinion and experience:
> 
> Am I doing enough?
> 
> I feel I have made good progress but am disheartened to read things that allude to the fact that no matter what I do it will not be enough. If I don't reach the point where my desire for sex is autonomous, is our marriage eventually doomed to failure? If I don't want sex automatically and on my own in the future, are all the steps I'm taking just a futile attempt at resolving the issue and merely prolonging my husband's discontent? Failing all else- would I be better off giving the impression that all is 'fixed'?


All we can do is to actively care whether our spouses are happy/satisfied and do what is reasonable to meet their expectations. What is reasonable is the difficult thing. That is a matter of a continuing discussion with your spouse.


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> [snipped]
> 
> How about this...I read in one of my Sex therapist books ...that In our sex lives, this is one area WE WANT SOME SELFISHNESS.. we don't like the idea our partner is just "pleasing us" for our sakes... this looses the excitement immediately... we want with everything in us ---to know that they are *SELFISHLY ENJOYING THE ACT AS MUCH AS WE ARE !!*- that is what PASSION IS all about! Noone wants this one sided, we want to see the euphoria in our spouses faces, feel it in their bodies ... we want to know we are pleasuring the living daylights out of them - this is like a HIGH. Who needs drugs!
> 
> [snipped]


:iagree: Yes! I agree 100%.


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## ukf32 (Jul 10, 2012)

*@effess*

Your post humbles me now and shames me for the person I have been. I can’t speak for your partner but I think it’s worth mentioning this all the same. At no point during our relationship have I ever found my husband to be ugly or unattractive. When I declined sex, in my own mind *all* I was refusing was the physical act. I literally had no idea of all the feelings my husband had when I rejected him. There were times he would try to make me see how it was in his shoes but it was futile, I thought it was all just manipulation to get intimate. I don’t honestly know why I didn’t absorb his perspective more, perhaps because we think that’s just how it is, full stop- that drive can’t be changed so why feel horrendous about it. I see how difficult it is to be HD- even though you try to voice how you feel your LD partner only sees it as an attempt to get more sex and the rest is white noise. 

*@SimplyAmorous
*

I really appreciate you taking the time to write such detailed responses. I must admit I am envious of your drive, I can’t help feeling more of a failure when I read your posts and that hurts. I WISH I could have all of that inside me to give to my husband. I do hope that one day I will but I can’t know what the future holds, what if that never becomes a part of me? I wish having a low drive WAS a deliberate thing and that I could simply switch it off!

In response to your question, at any time during all of this, yes I would have understood if he had decided to leave our marriage. It would have destroyed me but I could have accepted it. A while back I think I would have resented him making that choice far more, simply because of my ignorance surrounding the issue. 

"So NOW...you feel honest DESIRE welling up ?? How often does this happen ???"

Hmm, currently I am enjoying feeling desire for my husband almost daily (I don’t mean we have sex nearly this often, just that when we kiss or touch or flirt I enjoy it. The fact that I enjoy these moments without the apprehension I used to feel allows my body and mind to be free to embrace it). When I first began trying to change I would touch and kiss him but with conscious effort . Now it feels much more natural and I love the way he melts at my touch and falls apart as we kiss. I hate that I robbed us of so much time to enjoy that. 

As for how long I have been LD, I honestly can’t say. There’s no time or event in my past that I can definitively identify as being ‘the’ point of decline. I would estimate 6 years or so, maybe around 4 years ago my husband began actively voicing his discontent. I have been worried about it for around 2 years and finally went to the doctor around 12 months ago and that signifies the start of change.

*@Enchantment*

“do YOU feel like you are doing enough?”

I hope so. I am doing everything I can think of to address the issue but I don’t know if that is going to give me an autonomous drive of my own in time. I am worried that the absence of that will mean whatever I do, I won’t be giving my husband enough.

I deliberately didn’t mention my husband’s infidelity in relation to my LD. I would say while that must have been a contributing factor, in my heart of hearts it isn’t the ‘reason’. Prior to his EA my drive was almost equal to his. Initially because we were on bad terms there was no sex wanted or had by either of us. When we made the decision to reconcile my drive remained fine. It was probably 2 years or so later my drive began to decline and was the result of other external variables. I wouldn’t exclude his infidelity but it is not the only or most significant factor (though when I was grasping for reasons to explain my low drive to myself I did allow it to feature!). I wanted to ensure that people’s responses were as objective as possible and I suspect for some people that may have affected their opinion. 

I have forgiven him. I like the sentiment that someone else highlighted on my other thread- good people sometimes make bad choices and that is exactly how I feel about the whole thing. It’s part of our past so it has contributed to where we are now, which is (mainly!) a very good place!


In response to your other questions- our marriage is exceptionally strong in a lot of ways. I won’t go into everything in depth but we’ve worked hard to have a marriage we both value and to be the best people we can be individually and together.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

UK,
You are doing fine. 

Please ignore my earlier post on this thread, I was very sleep deprived when I wrote it. 

It is obvious you deeply love your H and have prioritized him highly in your life. And as part of that, you have prioritized the physicality in your marriage. 

You describe an emotionally healthy man. And you are completely right that he would far prefer a mid-point sexual frequency that you enjoy to a daily frequency that burns you out. Or that you simply tolerate. There are many very happy marriages with large core drive mismatches: To find out if you have one, ask him this: 

(LD to HD): Do you feel loved? 

That's it. Don't ask "Do you know I love you?" 

Of course he "knows" you love him. The reason he will FEEL loved, is that all the "other stuff" you do gets amplified by the physical intimacy you have. 

Even more so because you are LD. If someone is already feeling lust, it is effortless for that person to arrive to bed with a loving hard and commitment to please. 

But someone with - responsive desire - that is a different thing. For the LD spouse, it requires commitment and love. And for the HD spouse it may require a different approach than what worked before. 

Please forgive in advance this analogy - I love everything about my W. If there was anything "mechanical" about the way I treat her in or out of bed, we would not be happily approaching year 24 and she wouldn't say "you treat me like gold". 

I remember learning to drive a stick shift car. The gears selected have to match the speed of the vehicle. If not, you stall the engine which feels bad. With an LD partner who is starting out at a speed of "0", the HD partner needs to act accordingly. We both get in bed lightly dressed. 

1. Non-sexual touch: back/neck massage or back/neck scratch or both - for her, this is the start of a mental transition from the anxieties of the day to being in the moment. When she is relaxed (and the timing matters because waiting too long means she gets sleepy  )...

2. I transition to a lightly sexual massage. Border between lower back and ..., and upper thighs. When she is starting to respond...

3. I change positions - she is lying facedown - I am now straddling one of her thighs - and one of my thighs is now pressed up against her - broad pressure against her (she likes this) down there. 

4. She rolls over - this means she WANTs to transition to a fully sexual encounter. This might be the first time we start kissing. After a while I can tell if she is feeling turned on enough to O. If not, this is more a nice warm connection for her, than a passionate encounter. In that case, this is a gentle, soft ILY to each other. If she is turned on enough...

5. I usually transition to a more aggressive/dominant approach. This includes a very small amount of talk. 

FWIW - when she has that 3 day monthly spike and I happen to be home - (not travelling for work) - it is totally different. And we might be kissing passionately from the get go. But when she starts out in neutral - my kisses are more the romantic - soft lips style until she takes it further. 

As for the 1-5 above, just as often it happens in reverse with me lying face down on the bed. Similar set of stuff - similar pacing. 

My W told me early in our marriage that at worst, this feels "very nice". And that setting a pace that is faster than the rate at which she gets aroused, feels bad. Which made total sense to me the first time I heard it. I like it better when she gets super turned on and feels like I do. And it is also true that as long as it doesn't feel bad for her - as long as she doesn't dislike it, or feel grossed out, I can live with that. Might sound like a low bar. But the alternative is to PRESSURE her to lie to me about how it feels. About why she didn't O. 

I know her body well. When she doesn't O, it isn't due to a lack of effort or patience on my part. I like foreplay and long sessions. And hour is good for me. If I were to complain about her not finishing, that would convey disappointment in something she doesn't control. It would be a bit like her showing disappointment to me if I had mild ED. 





ukf32 said:


> In response to some comments I've read here and on other threads, I have 1 simple question. From what you've read here and based on your opinion and experience:
> 
> Am I doing enough?
> 
> I feel I have made good progress but am disheartened to read things that allude to the fact that no matter what I do it will not be enough. If I don't reach the point where my desire for sex is autonomous, is our marriage eventually doomed to failure? If I don't want sex automatically and on my own in the future, are all the steps I'm taking just a futile attempt at resolving the issue and merely prolonging my husband's discontent? Failing all else- would I be better off giving the impression that all is 'fixed'?


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## Kasler (Jul 20, 2012)

I'm an LD man, and one of my LD spouses was too LD for me. 

I'm pretty much satisfied with once a week or two weeks(bumped up for current SO), but she only really wanted it between spans of 2-3 months.

The biggest thing to get through to an LD woman isn't not to get physical or try foreplay, huge turn off for many of them. Just gotta explain it well so they understand how important it is. Also I found getting more emotional than physical helped greatly to where she would initiate at times or be thinking about what we talked for hours about and jump my bones as soon as I got back home. :smthumbup:


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

ukf32 said:


> *@SimplyAmorous
> *
> 
> I really appreciate you taking the time to write such detailed responses. I must admit I am envious of your drive, I can’t help feeling more of a failure when I read your posts and that hurts. I WISH I could have all of that inside me to give to my husband. I do hope that one day I will but I can’t know what the future holds, what if that never becomes a part of me? I wish having a low drive WAS a deliberate thing and that I could simply switch it off!


 I often get carried away when I write about this stuff, I tend to be overly passionate about it -because I , too, hurt my husband.... so am I any better...No 

There is always a possibility -as you grow older... you may get a taste of this.... they say women's PRIME is in their late 30's - early 40's -because as our Estrogren is going down a bit, Testosterone is going *UP*- and WOW...it can take you like a whirlwind, not knowing what hit you...or it may be just a slight increase. 

Here is something I found on the net to explain just a little bit of why this happens >>> hormones of course...



> *Balance the seesaw*.
> 
> When they were first married, the man remembered, he always took the sexual lead, pulling his wife close and whispering his desire to make love. But now, 20 years later, she often makes the first move.
> 
> Again, hormonal changes are bringing the couple into closer balance. Men and women both produce testosterone and estrogen, but the proportion of each changes over the years. The male's shifting levels of estrogen and testosterone may make him more willing to follow than to lead, happy for his wife to set the pace. And as a woman's estrogen declines and her testosterone becomes proportionately greater, she may become more assertive.


 One poster on here... Mary35.. she didn't come into her drive until her late 40's...... Biodegradable Hormones was a part of her story.....it took her for such a WILD RIDE, she thought she was going crazy (a thread like that)...... but before that...so many fights over sex in her marraige.... didn't get it at all....she also had too much of that "good girl snydrome" going on ....(As did I)... One of her threads here.... >> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/22067-reason-wives-wont-have-sex.html



> A while back I think I would have resented him making that choice far more, simply because of my ignorance surrounding the issue.


 I appreciate your honesty in this, and this is what I suspected... which would make this TRUE for countless other wives. Many on TAM will say "just divorce" -if they can't take it...knowing that "temptation" elsewhere may overtake them ....but how doublely tragic it is... if one DOES leave over Sex (acts with integrity to not cheat).........but is forever hated and felt as a Horrendous person for doing so....When others would hear the reason, most especially women friends -then leaking to others... it can blacken one's name for being "very shallow" and loveless I suppose. 

It truly is like speaking 2 languages - a grand canyon divide in understanding the other. And kids, they would never understand it, the fathers who leave would forever be looked upon with a tinge of evil for leaving MOM, cause she didn't want it and she is a good person. 

Me admitting I would have to "get out" myself makes me feel outright SELFISH for even speaking that....though I do feel this would be even HARDER on women as we are more emotional to begin with & meant to be the "objects of desire" - most of us take this for granted even. Then it is far less common in society -we'd want to pull our hair completely out of our heads








to be in the midst of wives complaining all their husbands want is sex & chasing them around. 

At least men can go yak to pretty much any man he can grab about how frustrated he is & crack jokes about it...husband hears this talk near every day at work. 



> "So NOW...you feel honest DESIRE welling up ?? How often does this happen ???"
> 
> Hmm, currently I am enjoying feeling desire for my husband almost daily (I don’t mean we have sex nearly this often, just that when we kiss or touch or flirt I enjoy it. The fact that I enjoy these moments without the apprehension I used to feel allows my body and mind to be free to embrace it). When I first began trying to change I would touch and kiss him but with conscious effort . Now it feels much more natural and I love the way he melts at my touch and falls apart as we kiss. I hate that I robbed us of so much time to enjoy that.


 :smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:
You mention feeling desire almost daily -but not having sex 'nearly this much"... 

Just curious, but you can ignore me.. or maybe I missed it in another post.... how often would HE want it naturally -if he could wave a magic wand .... and what is the norm -what you've both built up to....with your progress- Is the gap narrowing ?

What about hand jobs, BJs, when you aren't feeling it .... does it bother you to give him 15 minutes of hands on, even without a physical desire but having an emotional desire to please him in this way.... a "his pleasure is My pleasure" approach. 

I did a thread ...born out of one of my many little spats -over his antsy desire slipping as he has gotten older... this is how we both see it... and it's been a blessing for us both. 


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...allowing-our-partner-turn-us-love-making.html

.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SA,
Since we are talking HD/LD - Mary35 is a great example and I am glad you mentioned her. She and her H had a big sexual disconnect for 25 years. Basically from the start of marriage into her late 40's. And suddenly she woke up and became sexual. 

I like Mary35. I find her posts to be very honest and valuable. And I believe her H was clearly a partner in their sexual dysfunction, he simply didn't understand what/how to address it. I recall they have 5 children. 

And it seemed to me that the big driver for her change was the departure of her last child from the house. 

That was an emotional driver and a powerful one. It is one thing to have a distant/semi-angry husband in a house full of boisterous 5,4,3,2,1 kids (the sequence describes their departure from the house - to their own lives). 

It is an entirely different matter to have only 1 other person in the house - when that person is not happy with you/how you treat them. That is the situation M35 found herself in. And her approach was very practical, she made the effort (an effort she had chosen not to make for 25 years) to create a happy / healthy dynamic with her H. 

I am not going to say her hormones were a non-factor. As I have zero basis for an opinion in that regard. I will say that a woman with the normal level of emotional attachment/focus on her children can get many of her core emotional needs met through daily interaction with her offspring. This is perfectly normal stuff. And unfortunately for M35 but MUCH MORE SO for her H, the consequence of that was simple: She had a HAPPY 25 years, and he had a tense - mostly unloved 25 years. I got the sense they are strong Christians and that divorce was not an option for him so he just "sucked it up". 

But ultimately - with the daily distractions, love and interaction with the children removed, she found herself "home alone" with a guy who was distant and angry. The same distant - angry guy who had been there for decades. But now, she could either be essentially alone - or she could engage him. Which she did. And AFTER she did so, she realized she loved him, that he actually MATTERED, not just as a sperm doner, financial provider and handyman but as a human being with feelings every bit as real as hers. 




SimplyAmorous said:


> I often get carried away when I write about this stuff, I tend to be overly passionate about it -because I , too, hurt my husband.... so am I any better...No
> 
> There is always a possibility -as you grow older... you may get a taste of this.... they say women's PRIME is in their late 30's - early 40's -because as our Estrogren is going down a bit, Testosterone is going *UP*- and WOW...it can take you like a whirlwind, not knowing what hit you...or it may be just a slight increase.
> 
> ...


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

LD here & was married to HD for 22 years. Married young & naive; no bait & switch intentionally....but.....

SEX was ALWAYS a BIG problem for both of us like an everyday/night problem (he wanted; I didn't).

Not worth it.

Lots of LD/HD folks here & IRL married and/or LTR so no disrespect (been there) but it is hard......uggg.....so many compromises, frustrations, bad feelings not to mention really bad stuff like affairs.....

For me, never again.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> There is always a possibility -as you grow older... you may get a taste of this.... they say women's PRIME is in their late 30's - early 40's -because as our Estrogren is going down a bit, Testosterone is going *UP*- and WOW...it can take you like a whirlwind, not knowing what hit you...or it may be just a slight increase.


That was my wife. She was seriously LD the first half of our marriage. Somewhere in her mid forties, that changed and the elaborate mystique that's often cloaked around female sexuality evaporated into thin air. 

She'd walk through the door and her briefcase and legal briefs would fly through the air in a flat trajectory towards the couch at the same time her shoes were coming off. I went from being the HD partner to being the LD partner literally overnight.


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