# post-cheat - she's "confused", and I think I'm losing her



## lostontheroad (Nov 9, 2011)

Hello everyone. I've been lurking on this forum for a few days, ever since the Revelation.

Backstory time: We've been happily together for 7 years, in what we both thought was a very strong relationship (no kids, just pets). We're both musicians, which means that we travel a lot for work. We're often away from each other for 2-3 months, in intense situations with 30-40 other attractive people who are passionate about the same thing. Usually those are in communal living situations. Not exactly a great environment for a relationship, but we made it work through obsessive communication and real care taken to head off emotional affairs before they got going.

Then we moved to Europe. Here the going has been a lot tougher. We have a lot less work, and what we have has been local. This means we've been sharing 100% of our lives together, 24x7, in small apartments. For two years. We even got the same (soul-crushing) work-from-home day job together. I want to paint the picture for you: a 450 sqft, 2 room apartment. We eat, sleep, work, and practice together. We had some separate friends, but not a lot of time for them. 60+ hour work weeks. Stress and exhaustion all around.

During this stressful time, I started to feel that she wasn't attracted to me anymore. I tried bringing it up with her a few times, her sex drive just wasn't there. We tried a lot of things, eventually deciding that a large part of it was stress and exhaustion based. When we finally came to terms with how unhappy we were with that job, we both quit and started freelancing together.

Two months ago we moved to a new country. We had very limited choice of apartments moving here; we got a month-to-month lease that takes cats, fully furnished, good part of town, etc... the down side? The layout is more or less a studio apartment. So now we were 24x7 together, in a STUDIO. 

And it turns out that freelancing, we still weren't happy doing this work. ACtually we were both pretty miserable. But we're both hardcore type A personalities, and we don't like to admit defeat or weakness... so we soldiered on through the pain, each coping in our own way.

I coped by shutting myself off. I stopped listening to her - not just about little things around the house, but about big things, too. When we had time together I would hide in my laptop so I wouldn't have to listen. I would find work to do. When we put together our audition materials for this season, I didn't even watch hers. I tuned it out.

We both felt really claustrophobic in our life, and we talked about it a few times. Money was too tight to do some of the things we wanted to - getting into separate hobby classes like a dance course (for her) or martial arts (for me). Or change seemd just around the corner, like getting into separate language classes (we were both in the basic class to begin with, but she was going to jump a couple of levels in January). So even though we talked, not much changed. We did try to nurture individual friendships in this new city, though. And when we went out with friends, we both basically ignored each other because the other people were such a relief.

About a month ago I started to get a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach about the connection between my wife and one of the locals in our group of friends. It was clear that there was physical chemistry going on there. We've both had this before - in our jobs we meet so many people, we're used to it - and I brought it up to her. I just said "I'm not comfortable with the way we are physically when we're out with groups. I think we ignore each other, and you get really physically affectionate with everyone else. It makes me feel unloved, and I think it sends the wrong message to other people."

My wife is a physically affectionate person, much more so than me. Sometimes she gives hugs to her DAD that make me uncomfortable! So we're used to this difference in our physical boundaries. We chalked this up to alcohol, and our need to be apart more, but she pledged to be more physically affectionate with me in public, and to be careful about the physical affection thing.

And it worked. She was really careful about it. The chemistry was clearly still there, but there was no undue physicality, so I thought things were under control. During this time she saw him one on one a couple of times, for coffee or with a group of friends. I wasn't worried about it. She's my wife, he was a friend - neither one would do anything, right?

Obviously I'm here now, so I was wrong.

She got increasingly distant from me over the last month, and I kept asking her what was wrong. She said it was the claustrophobia thing backing up on her, so we pledged to find a bigger apartment. She started leaving the house to work from Starbucks or the local university, so we wouldn't have to be in the same room all the time.

Around this time I talked to her again about the OM and their chemistry. I told her that I noticed the chemistry was still there, and I heard her tone of voice on the phone with him. Familiar cues, I said. "I know you probably think you have this under control, because that's how this works. We both know that. And maybe it's under control right now, but that won't last. So it's time to set boundaries." We've used boundaries successfully before to head off potential EAs when we're apart. The rules here were no one on one time, especially after dark, and watch the alcohol when you're around him in a group.

At halloween, she got really drunk. She was really physically affectionate with the OM, to the point that it made some of my other friends uncomfortable. The OM couldn't make eye contact with me all night. I kept inserting myself next to her on the couch etc, to give her the opportunity to be physically affectionate with me instead, but it didn't work. Finally, she blew up at me in drunk incoherence, and stalked out of the party. She claimed not to remember it, or any of the bad behavior, afterwards.

The next day she told me that she was "really unhappy" and "really confused." She said that she didn't know what it was that was making her so unhappy; after all, she has a wonderful life where she pursues her dreams with the man she loves. But she said she was miserable, and needed some alone time to figure out what's wrong and what she really needs. A friend needed a housesitter, and within two hours she was out the door to stay there for the week.

I was blown away. I knew we were having a hard time, but unhappy enough to cry, to need alone time to think things through? The hardest thing to hear was when she said that she had no idea what she wanted anymore, to the point of not knowing if she wanted our partnership. On the surface, the discussion was about her feeling unhappy, but my instinct told me it was a divorce talk. I couldn't figure out why, and I decided I couldn't second guess her. So a couple of days later we talked on the phone, and dug a little deeper. Just seemed like it was a very serious unhappiness.

But the pit-of-my-stomach feeling didn't get any better. And the jealousy towards the OM burned. I became someone ugly, who snooped in her email. As far as I could see everything was OK.

The night before the end of the housesitting, I took her to the symphony - to see her favorite symphony, actually. It was supposed to be a surprise, but I had to spoil it to convince her to see me. The whole night, there was that distance between us. I knew she had something to get off her chest, something she needed to tell me. 

After the show, over drinks, we talked more about the unhappiness problem. She said I wasn't taking it seriously enough.I tried to take it very seriously, I was proposing lots of things we could change in our life to improve things. Then I shared what I had been thinking about all week, which was that I thought we had allowed a fundamental trust issue to grow between us. That's the root of any jealous feeling, after all. And she hadn't trusted me enough to tell me about this unhappiness before the last possible minute.

In explaining my jealousy, I caught something. So I said directly "you haven't done anything with him... have you?" She started to cry. "Did you kiss him?" she nodded, still crying, and couldn't look up. "Oh no... what happened? Please, tell me what happened." She took a long time to try and compose herself, and then came out with the howizer. "I fell in love with him."

She ****ed him.

One afternoon, when she was supposed to be going to the university to work, she went to his house instead. She was destroyed with guilt and humiliation and remorse afterwards, which is why she got so distant... and why she blew up at the party. And why she was so confusd and needed alone time.

Once I came down from my initial fury - I'm very good at that -we talked more. Obviously I was completely destroyed, but it was so clear that this was a mistake, that she knew it was a mistake and felt terrible about it. I told her I didn't know about forgiveness, certainly not so fast... but that no matter what I was her partner, and I wanted to work through this.

She wasn't sure. But after some more talking, she acknowledged that all of this time together, and the vows, had to mean something. We couldn't just give up and get divorced without fighting. I told her that the first thing that had to happen was she had to cut him off entirely. This hurt her a lot, visibly, but I stood my ground. She really felt like she loved him, and had all those predictable feelings of how-dare-I etc. I told her she could meet him for coffee in public and cut him off in person, that clearly she felt he deserved that. but that this meant no contact whatsoever. Deletion from Facebook and her phone. All of it. She went through with it, though it made her angry. She was very clearly doing it for me.

Fortunately my father was coming into town for a visit the next day. I stayed with him in the hotel, and he helped me a lot (he's happily married for 35 years, second marriage). Lots of good advice.

So now you've all gotten through my novella. Since then she's tried staying in my apartment, but the confined quarters are too much. I had one wave of anger that made both of us scared of what I might do (I think lots of men here have struggled with that!). So now she's in a hotel (our few friends here are either too close to the OM, or too angry at her to house her). I would stay with a friend, but I laid it out for her: I'm understanding about where she is psychologically and how vulnerable she was, but ultimately she's the one who ****ed someone else. It's not right for me to be the one living out of a suitcase, or sleeping on the couch.

She's going back to our last city for a couple of weeks, because we have a real support system there. She has several good girlfriends there (maybe one of whom I trust to give good advice, the rest are neurotic, but loving), and some performance opportunities that will help her start to feel herself again. I will meet her there for the last 3 days or so, to see her perform and date a little bit. After that she's flying home to the States to stay with her mother for 3 weeks around Thanksgiving. Her mother loves me and is a big supporter of the relationship, so that will be good. Also, she's going to try some therapist sessions while she's there.

I've been dealing with my emotions as best I can... a lot thanks to the good suggestions I've read on this forum. We are sharing our emotions with each other, but filtering out the comments or feelings that we think would be hurtful or would make the situation worse. I've been going for a lot of walks, and my pillows will have to be replaced for all the violence they've seen. But basically we're keeping communication open. 

And truth be told, the sex doesn't bother me the most. Yes, it's a massive trigger for me when I get the visions of it, but in the end that's done and she wishes she hadn't done it. Also, I've been very close to that sort of thing before; our EA protection in the past had worked, but it was not easy. I know too well "there but for the grace of god go I" - it's chemistry. It's evolution's way of ensuring we **** ourselves into an early grave. It's BUILT to take over your brain function and **** with your head. So I understand that an accident can happen and this can run away with you. It doesn't excuse it by any means, but it helps a lot.

What really kills me is her emotional detachment. Both before and after the indiscretion. First of all the fact that she wasn't comfortable telling me "I'm profoundly unhappy and we have to change something," but she was happy telling someone she had met a month ago "I love you now **** me." That kills me. Secondly, that now she can't bring herself to say "I love you" to me. She's given me the "I love you but I'm not in love with you anymore" talk already. This utterly destroys me. I'm still madly in love with her. Very sexually and personally attracted to her. 

My response to this has been an effort to build "Relationship version 2.0", where we fix all the old problems we can identify, even the stupid little ones. Already, when we're on an even part of the emotional roller coaster, our chemistry is still there and visible to anyone else present. We laugh, we have a great time together. And we're more PRESENT with each other than we've been in ages. I love it. In those moments I see a really bright, improved relationship ahead of us. I'm signing the lease on the new, 3-room apartment this week. I've taken over her work with the freelance company, and I sent her a list of English schools that I got from a friend (she's a certified English teacher, this would be a great job for her). I'm being more attentive, and really listening to what she has to say. I'm proposing dates out at the kind of stimulating places that we enjoy together - art galleries, museums, great parks. I've even left her a few funny notes as ways of showing that I care. 

And this is really hard for her. She tells me she's fighting really hard not to push me away, that I'm making her claustrophobic, etc. It reads like textbook "relationship thermostat" behavior. 

She says that she needs to "find herself", but I hear that as an adolescent excuse for "I did something I'm not proud of, and I want to escape it." The reality is, she is so destabilized by a combination of guilt and the power of brain chemistry, she can't tell which way is up. 

And I'm really frightened. New-relationship chemistry is really powerful stuff. It overrides everything else you want to do with your brain. And for me, it takes several months for my head to clear enough to start to understand what actually happened. Everyone else in our group of friends thinks that my SO was hurting and very vulnerable, and the OM took advantage of her. Personally, I think he just has no control or moral compass to speak of. Either way, she was vulnerable and was preyed upon. 

I take responsibility for making her vulnerable. I'm her partner, and it's my job to always be there at her back. And it's true, I wasn't. I dropped her pretty hard. On the other hand, she ****ed someone she had only known for a month, and told him she loved him. I'm disgusted that she would use that word - OUR word - for something like this! I know on a cerebral level that it certainly FEELs overwhelming, but that doesn't help. I can't bear the thought of having to wait for 6 months or a year for her to finally start seeing the OM for the ******* that he is.

OK, so it's been 4 days. She is still emotionally shut off, completely. Even when I feel a connection, she says (later) that she doesn't (I call BS, connections are ALWAYS two-way). She tells me she thinks I'm not taking this seriously enough. And she still can't bring herself to tell me that she loves me, or even that she wants to work on the relationship. She's too "confused."

I'm worried that "confused" in this case means "I want a divorce, but I'm too afraid to say so." It doesn't matter what I do, if she can't give 100% to building Relationship Version 2.0, this will not work out. It takes two for a partnership.

Anyone here have any advice on helping your SO get to "yes" this way? I believe that at her core she still wants to be with me, but the chemistry is addling her brain. How do people overcome this?


Failing that, I will happily accept your words of comfort. I don't care about anything except saving this partnership right now. I mean, if she's ultimately not going to be able to make a commitment to working through the "worse" part of "for better or worse", I'd rather get it over with quickly.


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## I_Will_Survive (Oct 28, 2011)

Wow. How awful for you. I just got here, I have no good advice, but a lot of sympathy for you. Hopefully someone who understands what to do will be along soon. There's good advice called the "180" that I would recommend - don't chase her, let her stew in her own broth for a bit. I think you're smart to ask her to leave, and not have to live on a couch yourself. The 3-room apartment sounds like a good idea and the idea of her teaching English would be a dream -- but it's got to be her dream.

You sound very understanding and very smart and you deserve better.

Stay strong!


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Welcome lostontheroad to the club no one should be a member of. Sadly, infidelity is so rampant these days that it is almost like catching the flu - almost everybody catches it. You've seen that keeping boundaries can be hard when a couple becomes separated by work.

If you're interested, click on the links below my signature. There's some good stuff all over this forum and in the Men's Clubhouse forum.

You are not alone for all of us here have been where you are and no matter what happens to your marriage, you will make it.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Her tellong you she need time, is charter bs for she wants to cheat more and you are in her way.

Is she still in contact with the POSOM? It sounds very much like it, that is partly what is continuing to feed her affair and desire to avoid you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Such a long story, but thanks for the details. I'm not going to bang my head on the wall trying to convince you of anything, either take my comments to heart or leave it. I've seen too many newly betrayed come here and ignore the well meaning advice of others who have been through this mess called infidelity because they're still in shock and denial. But it seems from your story that you at least seem to partially see through the initial smog.



lostontheroad said:


> But she said she was miserable, and needed some alone time to figure out what's wrong and what she really needs. A friend needed a housesitter, and within two hours she was out the door to stay there for the week.


I would guess that this is the point where the EA went PA. It may be be just a coincidence and your WW used this opportunity to have sex with the OM. Either that, or this friend might be one of those toxic friends that facilitated the PA. How much to do you know of this friend? Is she a friend of the marriage, or is she a toxic friend that enabled her affair? Because if she is a toxic friend, then she needs to go NC with her as well.



lostontheroad said:


> I told her that the first thing that had to happen was she had to cut him off entirely. This hurt her a lot, visibly, but I stood my ground. She really felt like she loved him, and had all those predictable feelings of how-dare-I etc. I told her she could meet him for coffee in public and cut him off in person, that clearly she felt he deserved that. but that this meant no contact whatsoever. Deletion from Facebook and her phone. All of it. She went through with it, though it made her angry. She was very clearly doing it for me.


Good. You firmly insisted no NC with the OM. But she did it unwillingly because she's still deep in the fog. Typically when this happens upon confrontation, the WS will take the affair underground, re-establishing contact with their AP through other means that you don't know about. Hence the need for computer monitoring software, VARs, etc. From the rest of your story, I would think that there is still contact between them. So the question is: What steps have you taken to monitor her and ensure that there is indeed NC?



lostontheroad said:


> My response to this has been an effort to build "Relationship version 2.0", where we fix all the old problems we can identify, even the stupid little ones. Already, when we're on an even part of the emotional roller coaster, our chemistry is still there and visible to anyone else present. We laugh, we have a great time together. And we're more PRESENT with each other than we've been in ages. I love it. In those moments I see a really bright, improved relationship ahead of us. I'm signing the lease on the new, 3-room apartment this week. I've taken over her work with the freelance company, and I sent her a list of English schools that I got from a friend (she's a certified English teacher, this would be a great job for her). I'm being more attentive, and really listening to what she has to say. I'm proposing dates out at the kind of stimulating places that we enjoy together - art galleries, museums, great parks. I've even left her a few funny notes as ways of showing that I care.


Now this is great, working on the relationship, however it's a bit premature. The time to work on the relationship is when there is verifiable NC, she shows true remorse, and is 100% committed to making the relationship work. What I see here is one person, you, working on the relationship. She's still in the fog, most likely because she still has some contact with her OM. And she knows that you are there for her and there's no danger of losing you.



lostontheroad said:


> And this is really hard for her. She tells me she's fighting really hard not to push me away, that I'm making her claustrophobic, etc. It reads like textbook "relationship thermostat" behavior.


Exactly what I just said. She's in an affair, having sex with OM, and she's trying hard not to push YOU away? This shows she's not afraid of losing you because you're trying so hard to R with her. She's likely still in contact with OM.



lostontheroad said:


> She says that she needs to "find herself", but I hear that as an adolescent excuse for "I did something I'm not proud of, and I want to escape it." The reality is, she is so destabilized by a combination of guilt and the power of brain chemistry, she can't tell which way is up.


We've seen this over and over again. When they say they need to find themselves, this is WS speak for: I need an excuse so I can be with my AP uninterrupted. When you hear this, it is definitely an indication that she is in no way read for R. For R, you need true remorse. What you see right now is guilt for getting caught, that's not true remorse. 



lostontheroad said:


> And I'm really frightened. New-relationship chemistry is really powerful stuff. It overrides everything else you want to do with your brain. And for me, it takes several months for my head to clear enough to start to understand what actually happened. Everyone else in our group of friends thinks that my SO was hurting and very vulnerable, and the OM took advantage of her. Personally, I think he just has no control or moral compass to speak of. Either way, she was vulnerable and was preyed upon.


You defnitely understand the addiction an affair has on brain chemistry. The excretion of dopamine, plus the added chemicals absorbed from the semen (yes, the majority of affair sex is unprotected sex for some reason), leads to a powerful addiction.

However, your WW is not a victim and wasn't taken advantage of. The affair was her choice entirely. It doesn't matter how vulnerable you think she was, she had a choice, and could have easily shot down all of OM's advances. Instead of confiding in you, her husband, she chose to accept OMs advances. Making her out to be a victim of an OM is just deflecting responsiblity for the affair. She has to own it, take responsiblity for it. She was not a victim. Oh, and I bet she told you that the sex wasn't very good either, am I right? And that she thought of you and the marriage the whole time she was with him. 



lostontheroad said:


> I take responsibility for making her vulnerable. I'm her partner, and it's my job to always be there at her back. And it's true, I wasn't. I dropped her pretty hard. On the other hand, she ****ed someone she had only known for a month, and told him she loved him. I'm disgusted that she would use that word - OUR word - for something like this! I know on a cerebral level that it certainly FEELs overwhelming, but that doesn't help. I can't bear the thought of having to wait for 6 months or a year for her to finally start seeing the OM for the ******* that he is.


You are only responsible for 50% of the state of the marriage before the affair, she was 100% responsible for the affair itself. So her solution to fix the marriage is banging an OM? Does that even make any sense?



lostontheroad said:


> OK, so it's been 4 days. She is still emotionally shut off, completely. Even when I feel a connection, she says (later) that she doesn't (I call BS, connections are ALWAYS two-way). She tells me she thinks I'm not taking this seriously enough. And she still can't bring herself to tell me that she loves me, or even that she wants to work on the relationship. She's too "confused."


She's on the fence right now and you need to knock her off of it. 


lostontheroad said:


> I'm worried that "confused" in this case means "I want a divorce, but I'm too afraid to say so." It doesn't matter what I do, if she can't give 100% to building Relationship Version 2.0, this will not work out. It takes two for a partnership.


This is because you're the only one that's trying, and she sees no danger of losing you. This is called cake eating. She has 2 men vying for her love and affection, and inside she's loving it. She'll say that she's confused for as long as you allow her to. Either she commits to the marriage or she doesn't. You need to make her choose, and that means putting D on the table and actually preparing to go through with it. It takes 2 to make a marriage work, not 3. 



lostontheroad said:


> Anyone here have any advice on helping your SO get to "yes" this way? I believe that at her core she still wants to be with me, but the chemistry is addling her brain. How do people overcome this?


You can't make her love you. You can't manipulate her into loving you. She's still deep in the fog and you have to shake her out of it. You have to be prepared to let her go. You have to do the hard 180, if you don't know what that is, look it up. You have to start divorce proceedings. D takes a long time, so you can call or delay the process if you see her come out of the fog and commits 100% to the marriage and shows true remorse. Either she chooses you or her OM. 

You will know true remorse when you see it. She will throw herself at your feet and be willing to do anything to save the marriage, which means willingly go NC with OM, willingly be transparent,etc. But you have to be able to show that you will go on without her and that she's LOSING YOU. Right now, you're wasting your time working hard on the marriage when she isn't into it because she's still in love with the OM.

Get over your fear of losing her, otherwise you will continue to live in limbo. And others here will tell you, limbo is hell.


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## lostontheroad (Nov 9, 2011)

Thank you everyone for your support and words. And for reading the novella!

lordmayhem: thanks for your thoughtful analysis and advice. I want to clarify, the PA event happened a week and a half before she went to house-sit. She told me that it only happened once, and I have no choice but to believe her or just let it lie. 

The friend is an old friend of my wife's, totally external to what's going on. He's met the OM a couple of times, but that's it. 



> Good. You firmly insisted no NC with the OM. But she did it unwillingly because she's still deep in the fog. Typically when this happens upon confrontation, the WS will take the affair underground, re-establishing contact with their AP through other means that you don't know about. Hence the need for computer monitoring software, VARs, etc. From the rest of your story, I would think that there is still contact between them. So the question is: What steps have you taken to monitor her and ensure that there is indeed NC?


She is definitely still deep in the fog. I expect that to last another couple of weeks at least... I've been close enough to an EA myself that I know it takes a long time to be REALLY out of the fog. I've been watching her email, but she's technically savvy enough to delete anything she doesn't want me to see. There was no evidence there before, either. This is part of the reason to send her away: I don't trust the OM at all, and I expect him to try to contact her. If she's on another continent he can't get to her. It makes sense to demand complete transparency during this phase... I'll do that tomorrow.



> We've seen this over and over again. When they say they need to find themselves, this is WS speak for: I need an excuse so I can be with my AP uninterrupted. When you hear this, it is definitely an indication that she is in no way read for R. For R, you need true remorse. What you see right now is guilt for getting caught, that's not true remorse.


Again, I don't think she's had any contact with the OM since she cut him off. If there is any contact, that's a dealbreaker. I agree that what I see is guilt and not necessarily remorse. She's very sorry she hurt me so badly, she feels awful at the stupid decision. But I don't see that she's ready to crawl yet.



> You are only responsible for 50% of the state of the marriage before the affair, she was 100% responsible for the affair itself. So her solution to fix the marriage is banging an OM? Does that even make any sense?


This is so hard for me. Yes, of course I see that you're right. I try to be clear with her about the responsibility. I feel terrible for letting her get so unhappy, but that doesn't excuse the decision she made, or the hurt she caused.



> This is because you're the only one that's trying, and she sees no danger of losing you. This is called cake eating. She has 2 men vying for her love and affection, and inside she's loving it. She'll say that she's confused for as long as you allow her to. Either she commits to the marriage or she doesn't. You need to make her choose, and that means putting D on the table and actually preparing to go through with it. It takes 2 to make a marriage work, not 3.


Yes, with the caveat that I don't think it's about a decision between him and me. It's about a decision between being single and me. And she recognizes that she's too much in the fog to make that decision now. That hurts me to hear, but it demonstrates a commitment to honesty and communicating about the hard things... which is more important IMO than being able to commit 110% right away.



> You can't make her love you. You can't manipulate her into loving you. She's still deep in the fog and you have to shake her out of it. You have to be prepared to let her go. You have to do the hard 180


I looked it up, and it's fantastic. Actually when I decided I had to cool off on the pressure, this is exactly what I did. I told her that I wasn't going to contact her until she wanted me to. That she could feel free to invite me out on a date, but only if she wants. I'm not inviting her, and I'm not holding time in my schedule for her. 

I've connected (and re-connected) with friends here, who have been very wiling to keep me occupied. 

When I saw her today, she was much better. More affectionate, not pushing me away, much... less foggy, for lack of a better description. I played it cool, didn't tell her I loved her, didn't do anything like that. Just cleaned up the apartment and said that it was a good step to feeling like our lives are coming back into control. She stuck around for an hour maybe, and left. I was cheerful, happy... and when she left I made jokes.

She said she would call me to meet for drinks later, and I said "only if you want to. Don't worry about it." She didn't call; I went out with other friends. I didn't call either. She sent a text message about some business - she'll be coming by at such-and-such a time, etc. I didn't respond.

And the thing is, it wasn't an act. I genuinely FEEL better. More independent. I pulled out my guitar for the first time in years today. Played music I haven't listened to since long before I met her. It was great, I was really on a high for awhile. I figure it was just a part of the roller coaster though, because I came down from it later.

A really important piece of advice I got the other day, was that if she's not capable of fighting through this for our marriage, she's not the woman I thought she was. And more to the point, she's not the woman I need to make a long term partnership successful. Everyone goes through awful, painful times at some point in their relationship - if not this, then someone gets cancer, or there's a wreck, or whatever. But if you can't put in the work to pul the relationship back from those brinks, you can't make it in a real lifelong relationship. If that's the case, if that's who she is, it's better to divorce now and get it done quickly than to drag it out over painful months and years. Of course it will still hurt, but not nearly as much or for as long. 

This thought has helped me feel comfortable with the thought of losing her. Of course I still think this IS the partnership for me, that she IS the person I think she is and that she WILL decide to work through these issues with me. But if I'm wrong, I will simply have to move on.



> You will know true remorse when you see it. She will throw herself at your feet and be willing to do anything to save the marriage, which means willingly go NC with OM, willingly be transparent,etc. But you have to be able to show that you will go on without her and that she's LOSING YOU. Right now, you're wasting your time working hard on the marriage when she isn't into it because she's still in love with the OM.


Truest words in the thread. I'm not starting divorce proceedings at this point, because she's been direct about saying she doesn't want to divorce, that she wants to try to make this work. But she's also said that she can't really try until she figures out what she needs, why she did this, and whether she thinks this partnership can make her happy again. She is so much in the fog - not just the chemistry fog, but also the psychologically lost fog - and she knows it. I take this as a good thing, to take it all so seriously. 

She has a month of time with various supporters, close to me and far from me, to think about this. After all that, if she's still not ready to commit to fixing this... it's time to divorce. Merry Christmas to me, I get to start on a new life.

Of course, if she DOES commit to fixing it, Merry Christmas to me, I get a long road of relationship work to make this happen.


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## lostontheroad (Nov 9, 2011)

An update for anyone watching. 

Today started as a very very hard day. The thick of the "fog", really - we had some business to attend to together (getting her work permission for this country is based on my citizenship, so we have to do it together). We were really miserable, one of those times when just the presence your partner makes you want to be physically ill, and you think you can never be happy again. She was every bit as ashen-faced as I was. 

I said that before we went anywhere, I needed to check on the one boundary we had set. I was direct and said that I knew she was in the middle of the fog, and that I have no trust for her right now. I asked directly if she had had any contact with the OM, and she said no. I asked for her passwords, and she gave them to me without hesitation (well, it was a bit trickier than that because she uses a password manager, but she was totally willing). I asked to see her phone and she handed it over without missing a beat. She told me that the OM had texted her on Monday, angry that she had deleted him from Facebook. She didn't respond, and deleted the message. It happened in front of one of our good friends, and she offered to have him verify. I don't need verification. The speed and directness with which she offered me the information and the phone told me the whole story. And this was through a very "foggy" morning, for both of us!

She mentioned that the only thing that makes password sharing hard for her, is that a feeling of lack of independence, and lack of her own individual life was a part of the unhappiness before the event. I said I understood that, and I assured her that I don't like needing this either. I said "this is a temporary measure only. I don't want to always need your passwords like this. Once we're on the road to a real recovery, I know I'll be able to trust you enough to remove this access. (our password manager lets her share her passwords with me without me ever seeing the actual passwords... so I can log in, but if she wants to remove access she has the power to do that). This will be one of hte signs of returning trust, and she was OK with that.

So the day involved a lot of time together - first handling this work permission business, then going to sign the lease on our new, larger apartment. I tried very consciously to do the 180 all day. There were some incredibly hard times! But this is the second day in a row where I have not instigated ANY affection or even loving speech. I was clear with her that I've arrived at a place where I'm OK with divorcing. I explained that if she isn't capable of working through **** times like this, then she wasn't the woman I thought she was... and she wasn't the woman I needed for my partner. And that I'm OK with that. Of course divorce would hurt, but I would get better and move on with my life.

Otherwise I was really blasé about the whole thing. We had some serious talks, but never about the OM. Instead they were about some of the practical things, and the feelings we were both going through. Most notable in the conversation was her explaining that she felt she couldn't re-commit to the relationship until she had answered some key questions for herself: "why did I do it?" and "what was I missing?" she said she felt that until she figured those out, she couldn't look at me and promise that this would never happen again. She said she was afraid of all outcomes - afraid of the big mistake that being alone would be, but also afraid that something like this could happen again in our marriage if we go forward. 

It's funny to say this in this context, but my wife is someone who really believes in her promises, and works hard to never make a promise she won't keep. It was a part of our strength in "peacetime". I believe her when she says that she feels she needs to be able to promise me that it will never happen again.

I explained that from all my reading, it seemed like the "why" and "what was I missing" questions take a long time to answer, usually with separate therapists and often couples therapy at the same time. That this might take months for us to really figure out, and that right now she is too much in the fog to have a chance of answering realistically. I told her that because of that, I'm not looking for a promise that it will not happen again. What I need is a promise that she will give 110% to figuring out why this happened and making sure it can never happen again. I said I need a promise that she will give 110% to building a better, stronger, more honest relationship with me, and to finding happiness again as individuals AND as a pair. I explained that I believe that's the only realistic promise I can ask for, and the only one that I will really believe.

Otherwise we had a really nice day together. We laughed a lot, and enjoyed our connection. Like I said I tried to do the 180 all day. I had to leave the room once or twice to maintain that, but I feel good about the alpha signals I was giving. I felt more like myself (I'm a natural alpha, who has been beta-ized... this is one of the problems we've identified, she was attracted to the alpha me. Not so much the beta.) I never initiated physical contact, I never said "I love you", or "I'll be here for you", or anything like that. I did very often leave my hand in a place where she could reach out and hold it if she wanted to. ie if we were walking together, I kept my hands out of my pockets (in a confident stride!). It was a ****ING COLD DAY, but I allowed myself that sign of weakness, convincing myself that she wouldn't notice.

At two points today she reached out and gave me loving touches to the face, hair, and neck. Such a small thing! But WOW did it feel wonderful. Once she came across the table to kiss me lovingly on the lips. And at the end of the day, she kissed my cheek. I smiled in response, and managed to not weep openly at the happiness that made me feel. Seriously I was lucky she went to the bathroom after giving me that kiss, because I about broke down and cried for happiness right then. 

One treatment that clinically depressed patients use is a "gratitude journal." It's one of the most effective therapeutic (non-chemical) treatments for clinical depression... so much so that ~60% of clinical trial participants continued treatment on their own after the trial. It's simple: you keep a daily journal of at least 3 things you're grateful for, each day. The boosts in psych "happiness" indexes are incredible, I recommend reading the studies if you can. Anyway, we decided to do that verbally with each other, and even though the studies say the best effects don't show until after several months, it has been a real light in the tunnel for me through this. So my things for today:

* I'm grateful that we're both excited about the new apartment, and the possibilities that brings of moulding an environment for our personalities (we've been renting furnished for the last 3 years... which has a subtle but stifling effect).

* I'm grateful that I have a family that is so willing to support me and my partnership through this hardest time.

* I'm grateful that my wife has been willing to take the first real steps on the road to recovery, in genuinely cutting off contact, and offering up total transparency.

* I'm grateful that for a moment today, my wife wanted to touch me in an affectionate way. That for an instant, she wanted to kiss me romantically. This is an enormous improvement over where we were before the indiscretion.

It's funny that in the heat of the darkest period of my life, I can see little sparks that hint of a much much better time ahead. With or without her, I know that coming out of this I will be stronger, happier, more "myself", and more sure of what I need in a partner. Those are all good things, and I look forward to them.


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

Sorry your wife has done this to you.You realize it is abusive,, don't you?
I just wonder how long you can live in limbo like this. I hope you do not take this too much longer, as it is bad for your health and also sends her a clear message that you will put up with a lot, too much.
I think you need to at least consult an attorny at this point.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Sounds good,rooting for you two. 

Maybe bohemian lifestyle is wearing a little thin?


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## lostontheroad (Nov 9, 2011)

Much harder day today... she arrived in a very dark place, and clearly had an anger wave - she lashed out at me in a big way, so I got out of the house ASAP without responding, only listening. The hurt isn't over by a long shot, and sometimes I wonder if I'm ever going to get through it. 

When she calmed down, we had another talk. This time she explained that she wasn't sure if she could ever be attracted to me again. She said it'd been a long time since she'd had that feeling of attraction, getting wet and excited at the thought of me. This is definitely one-sided: I still find her incredibly sexy... so much that it's one of the things that hurts me when I can't touch her. But for her, she feels like this is part of why she can't be sure she won't cheat again. A life of not being attracted to your partner is a terrible thing! I told her that this lack of passion is something that we can do something about... that of course it's never like the chemistry of a new affection, but it can be fantastic. I told her that at base, I want her to be happy - and if we figure out that she just cannot feel attraction for me anymore, I would be the one to leave. In Relationship Version 2, my wife is attracted to me.

So me the "fixer" alpha, of course immediately I look for ways to work on this. Here's the thing: I'm a really good looking guy. I'm naturally trim, with good features and all my hair... when I go out, I get a lot of female attention (which I have steadfastly ignored for years). So I know this isn't a physical thing. I think it's partly because of this shared life we've been in. I mean, we live in a studio apartment with no individual space. It's hard to find someone sexy when you're constantly with them - when you deal with all the daily gross things that people do. So I guess partly I'm hoping that the new apartment will help restore some of the mystery and excitement about me, physically. 

But I also suspect that it's to do with me not demonstrating my Alpha value in front of her. I've picked up the guitar again. Started going to art galleries on my own, all of the things that I really love but had stopped doing for this depressive funk I was in. I mean, years of depressive funk. It feels good to start to come back to "me". And I'm noticing that I get a lot more female attention again. I'm starting to feel that charm like I used to. It's been ages since I felt that. I try to make sure that my wife is there to see it, but I'm also doing it for me, to boost my own sense of self-worth. I feel like I was a 10 when she met me, and I've let myself slide to a 7 or so... and this process is helping me build back up again.

There's a balance though. One of the problems is that she's been relegated to Beta role in so many of the aspects of our relationship. She doesn't have direct access to the bank account. I pay the rent and the bills, and she was working for me. She's only here on a visa because of my citizenship... etc. This led to a loss of her sense of self - she's also a high Alpha personality, and she lost that in our relationship. So in our interactions together, I'm trying to be more Beta. In my interactions with other people, especially in front of her, I'm trying to be more Alpha.

She is so lucky to have someone like me. I'm working so hard to save this relationship, only a week after I found out about the OM. TBH the work I'm doing is dual purpose - it's a big improvement in myself, too. It helps me understand that I can go on without her, and reminds me of my own value. I'd be lying if I said I was doing it only for myself, but I don't ever want to go back to the "me" from 3 weeks ago. I like this "me" a lot better, and it feels more like my personality.

Going out to separate parties tonight. She's going to make some new girlfriends, which I think will be good for her at the moment. I'm going to go to a costume party with lots of beautiful girls, which I think will be good for me. I don't want to complicate matters by getting into my OWN affair... but I do need to feel attractive again, and work on being the Alpha in public. It's surprising how easily I fall into Beta habits again if I'm not thinking about it.


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## lostontheroad (Nov 9, 2011)

It occurs to me... anyone have any good resources for advice on improving your Alpha qualities to stay attractive to your wife? I liked the snippet from Married Man Sex Life, but it's just a hint. Other recommendations?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

lostontheroad said:


> It occurs to me... anyone have any good resources for advice on improving your Alpha qualities to stay attractive to your wife? I liked the snippet from Married Man Sex Life, but it's just a hint. Other recommendations?


You might check the links out on this page:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html


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## Sindo (Oct 29, 2011)

lostontheroad said:


> There's a balance though. One of the problems is that she's been relegated to Beta role in so many of the aspects of our relationship. She doesn't have direct access to the bank account. I pay the rent and the bills, and she was working for me. She's only here on a visa because of my citizenship... etc. This led to a loss of her sense of self - she's also a high Alpha personality, and she lost that in our relationship. So in our interactions together, I'm trying to be more Beta. In my interactions with other people, especially in front of her, I'm trying to be more Alpha.


She has made it clear that she is attracted to Alpha qualities, and not attracted to you in Beta. Yet you're being Alpha for other people, while more Beta in interactions with her. 

Your reasons make sense, but it might present a problem.


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

You sound a little too tolerant and understanding of her when she acts abusively to be Alpha, at least as regards your interactions with her.
When she lashes out, don't just let it slide.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

lostontheroad said:


> she lashed out at me in a big way, so I got out of the house ASAP without responding, only listening. The hurt isn't over by a long shot, and sometimes I wonder if I'm ever going to get through it.
> 
> When she calmed down, we had another talk. This time she explained that she wasn't sure if she could ever be attracted to me again. She said it'd been a long time since she'd had that feeling of attraction, getting wet and excited at the thought of me.


 She tested to see if the alpha was real and you failed the test. She then told you that she is not attracted to you. This is not a coincidence. Unless you become real alpha and not just fake alpha she will not be attracted to you.

She cheated on you dude. She has no right to be angry at you for keeping her from the OM. You need to be the angry one not her. She is not showing any remorse. She needs to show remorse and want to working on the marriage or you need to file.

As it stand now she is using you as a meal ticket and to get her work papers. She will leave you when she can. Alpha up and let her know that you are not happy with the way she is treating you and if she cannot change that you will understand and file for divorce immediately. Remember that filing for divorce is not the same as divorce as it takes months and can be undone. If she lets the divorce happen, then it was over anyways.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Well if this makes sense I wish somone would explain it to me.

"Going out to separate parties tonight. She's going to make some new girlfriends, which I think will be good for her at the moment. I'm going to go to a costume party with lots of beautiful girls, which I think will be good for me. I don't want to complicate matters by getting into my OWN affair... but I do need to feel attractive again, and work on being the Alpha in public. It's surprising how easily I fall into Beta habits again if I'm not thinking about it." 


From Marriage Builders:


'A third possible cause of an affair is a lifestyle where spouses spend much of their leisure time apart from each other, and form leisure-time friendships with those of the opposite sex. A plan to avoid being away from each other overnight and making each other favorite leisure-time companions goes a long way toward creating a passionate marriage that is essentially affair-proof."


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

chapparal said:


> Well if this makes sense I wish somone would explain it to me.
> 
> "Going out to separate parties tonight. She's going to make some new girlfriends, which I think will be good for her at the moment. I'm going to go to a costume party with lots of beautiful girls, which I think will be good for me. I don't want to complicate matters by getting into my OWN affair... but I do need to feel attractive again, and work on being the Alpha in public. It's surprising how easily I fall into Beta habits again if I'm not thinking about it."
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:
Good point.


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## desert-rose (Aug 16, 2011)

Sorry to hear that you're going through this.

Try this 180 thing. Give her the choice to drop the other guy or you will leave. If you give her a chance to keep at this, she will keep doing it. Draw the line. Show her that you care, show her that you want things to work, but that it's only going to happen if she commits to you fully and works this out properly.

You're going to want this to be fixed fast and get better fast, but it's a long ride and it feels like a roller coaster. Just be prepared. This feeling sucks and it's going to suck for a long time. 2.5 months and it's not any easier yet for me, but, you'll survive. My WH cheated on me and became abusive; I should be the angry one, but he's blame-shifting the anger on me for exposing his affairs and behavior because he can't deal with it. We've got an international mess on our hands, as well, intensified by cramped quarters. So, I sympathize. I hope for your sake that your partner can deal with it and that your situation improves!

Wishing you good luck in your situation.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

> she arrived in a very dark place, and clearly had an anger wave - she lashed out at me in a big way, so I got out of the house ASAP without responding, only listening.


What was she angry about?


> This time she explained that she wasn't sure if she could ever be attracted to me again. She said it'd been a long time since she'd had that feeling of attraction, getting wet and excited at the thought of me.


Oh Boy!! The dreaded words for every relationship. She is in the process of checking out/or has already checked out. Some part of me screaming that you are in denial too...Maybe you've realized that that the relationship ended but you haven't accepted it.(You cried when she kissed you.). The way you are going about right now, I see a repeat of WS and BS script that I've seen here a million times. Stop making excuses for her. You are the only one working on your marriage here. 

One more thing that I've noticed about your posts is about "180" and being an "Alpha". I think you see these two more as an act as opposed to something you should be doing instinctively. Don't pretend to be one. Go about being one.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

Yeah you must be high to let your wife out unattended. But hey its your marriage. Hope you got a GPS. A few drinks in her and she could end up under the OM again. Then that would make you a confirmed cuckold. Not very alpha. Oh and as far as her not having any sense of herself. Welcome to fricking marriage. You're suppose to become one. I've been married for 32 years and the first was rough, but over time you become less you (not in a bad way) and more us. That means that generally after I think what I think. I think what would my wife think. And its the same for her. We are so much "we" now that at least once every week or two one of us will pick up the phone and call, while the other is picking up their phone to call. Its always good for a laugh. I don't know if you believe in "string theory" or "Atomic glue". I do, only I believe it can include emotion as well physical connection. That's why some dolphins sink to the bottom of the sea when they lose their mate. I think what it would be like being eye to eye with one another for life, and then that connection gone. The same with Elephants. A mother lost her child. After their migration (a year later), the mother came back to the bones of her child, like the pain was still acute. Or even the couple that had been married for 75 year, they were in a car accident, and they each died within one hour of another holding hands. Now that's marriage.


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## lostontheroad (Nov 9, 2011)

> Well if this makes sense I wish somone would explain it to me.
> 
> "Going out to separate parties tonight. She's going to make some new girlfriends, which I think will be good for her at the moment. I'm going to go to a costume party with lots of beautiful girls, which I think will be good for me. I don't want to complicate matters by getting into my OWN affair... but I do need to feel attractive again, and work on being the Alpha in public. It's surprising how easily I fall into Beta habits again if I'm not thinking about it."
> 
> ...


Good point Chapperal. If you read in my novella first post, we've been together literally 24/7 for more than 2 years now, in a studio apartment with occasional forays outside (together) to do things we hate to do, together. We've worked jobs we hated together, slogged through really unhappy circumstances together... and all within a 250sqft studio. We're both hopelessly smothered.

So I agree that LONG TERM you have to build your relationship based on enjoying leisure time activities, shared passions, and shared experiences... But right now we've spent way too much time in the pressure cooker together. And emotionally we're both sitting on powder kegs. Remember, the A just came out a week ago! We're trying to share our feelings with each other as much as possible, while avoiding lashing out irrationally. You have to let that anger and resentment out somewhere, to someone, but not necessarily to your spouse. That would make things worse. Deepen the hurt already caused, deepen the resentment, and potentially land the physically stronger one of us in jail for spousal abuse. 

In short, trying to find some measure of separate lives again is a cooling off tactic. Not a long term marriage-foundation. 

Someone asked what she was angry about yesterday morning. Stupid ****. Angry that I let her get to such an unhappy place. Angry that I control all our finances. Angry that if she leaves me, she really will have nothing. That, to me, is the roller coaster talking. It doesn't make sense, it's completely unreasonable and irrational. On day 3, I almost threw up in public because she DARED to wear shoes that I bought her. There's nothing reasonable about that, either .Those are the emotions that we're trying to just ride out, so we can actually deal with the emotions that have meaning.

Someone else mentioned that it sounds like I'm talking about "acting alpha" rather than "being alpha." The thing is, I've been alpha most of my life. It's my character. In the last couple of years I was beaten down to beta in a big way, and convinced that that was the better way to be for my career and for interpersonal reasons. So while there's an element of pushing myself into alpha positions here (sometimes I have to remember to take control of the social situation, or to be decisive etc), that feels a lot more "me" than what I've been doing for 2-3 years. I've been hiding so much it's become a habit. No more, though. I'm me and people have to deal with it. Sometimes I still catch myself hiding though, out of habit. Make sense?

This is actually what I wanted to post about here today. The 180 and paying attention to Alpha traits has started me on a whole process of self-rediscovery. I really didn't like who I was, how I was acting before all this. Every day I start to feel more "myself" again, more alive. I'm going out to do the things I like to do, I have hobbies again, I'm making contact with friends, I'm a leader and an artist again. These are all things I have gradually phased out over maybe 3 years. Two weeks ago, I had no friends of my own. The men who were my "best men" at my wedding were probably the closest... I talked to them MAYBE once a year, for 30 minutes. I stopped all my hobbies, all my stress releases. I never went out just to do something I wanted to, like go to an art gallery or a park, or even take a bath with a good book. I was always conscientious to let someone else be the social leader, and I had definitely learned not to express an individual artistic opinion. And rediscovering all of that about myself feels GREAT. Like stepping out into the sunlight again, or like suddenly seeing things in color after a long period of black and white. It's a great feeling already, and I'm just getting started!

As I was getting into this re-alphaization or self-rediscovery, I bought a copy of the Married Man Sex Life Primer. Great stuff in there just on Alpha and Beta traits, and how to try and find your optimal combination.

But one core element that I like, is the idea that everyone has a rating on the standard 10 scale. Men's ratings of women tend to be simpler and more visual than women's ratings of men. And these ratings are largely based on evolutionary fitness, through instincts that were laid down literally millions of years ago. Breasts and hip ratio are fertility indicators in women, so it makes sense that we should get a shot of dopamine when we see them. In men, traits that indicate good genetics or childrearing are what set off the chemical reactions in women. Relationships can be more difficult and sexually stressed when someone's rating is different from that of their partner's. So an 8 married to an 8 will have less trouble than an 8 married to a 5. 

This is a great simplification of what's going on with Alpha/Beta traits, and attractiveness to your partner. 

When we started dating, we were both hovering around 8.5/9. But since then, she's grown tremendously as a person: travelled the world, gained enormous life experience. She's also had some minor cosmetic surgery done which gave her a huge confidence boost. I think she's probably a 9.5 now, maybe even a 10. But me... I've let a crappy job beat me down. I've stopped being so interesting, decisive, and... well, Alpha. My metabolism has started to slow, so my body has slipped. I stopped paying attention to my own grooming, and have a painfully unflattering haircut and lack of facial hair. I've just crawled into a hole, and dropped my rating to a 7 or so. Yes, this is a problem,a nd it was a problem for a long time before the A. One of the defining characteristics of my next relationship (whether it will be with my current wife or with someone else) is that we will stay rating-matched. I will be the best, most attractive person I can be, and she will keep up to that. 

In that paradigm, it makes sense that she hasn't felt the dopamine kick for me in a long time. I've become the oxycontin guy, the safe but boring option. And she's become way more attractive than me, which signals to other men that it's OK to move in... and which sets her up for a huge euphoria kick when someone else does.

So here's a point that the MMSL makes, which I think is key for me. I can't force my wife to be attracted to me. I can't force her to want to stay in this relationship. The only thing I can control is ME. And this process of rediscovery is turning myself back into a much better, more attractive "me." Even in a handful of days, I've noticed a huge difference. Not just in my own confidence and happiness, but in the way people around me react to me. I've been chatted up by more, hotter women than anytime since college. More people open doors for me, or go out of their way to let me pass. Service people are friendlier. It's bizarre, but I love it.

So I've been very clear about this with my wife - no matter what she decides, I'm going to be OK. I'm rediscovering the great guy I am, and I'll be able to find another partner if I want one... or be happy alone. I've made it clear that she can have some space to think things through if that's what she feels she needs, but that she has limited time to make a choice here. I won't be around forever. We have this time planned for her to fly out to our old city to be with our closest friends and supporters. I'm going to meet her there after a few days. Then she's flying home to stay with her mother for 3 weeks, and look for a therapist. I mentioned that we live overseas, so it complicates therapy. 

I'm sorry, but I don't think she's contacting the OM anymore. She gave me complete access. Email, facebook, her phone, text messages... she has cut him off completely. I set specific boundaries on day one, and was clear that breaking any of the boundaries would mean immediate divorce. And she's accepted all of the boundaries willingly:

1) No contact of any kind with the OM.

2) Seek therapy.

3) Get out of the situation, and get to our psychological supports ASAP. This means our old city, and her family.

4) Total, willing transparency. I have all her passwords, phone records, etc.

She's kept within the boundaries, so I'm not divorcing her (yet). But we can't move forward with repairing our relationship yet, because she's afraid to do that... in her words, afraid that she doesn't know WHY she did this, so it could happen again. In my words, she's still in the fog and doesn't want to give me a dishonest or half-hearted answer. So I'm giving her space and resources to come out of the fog over the next 4 weeks. After that it's decision time.

In the meantime, all I can do is work on me. I know that will increase my attractiveness to her, but it also increases my attractiveness to OTHER women, and to myself. It's a win-win. I'm pulling the hard 180 as best I can - actually, a lot of it aligns with Alpha traits anyway, so it's not that hard to combine. And I'm really happy that I'm seeing results from that work. 

I know she cheated on me, I know she hurt me, but this is my partner. I would rather see this relationship get past this problem than founder in it. So I'm happy to see steps towards her feeling an attraction for me again. I'm happy to see her making positive associations with me, because that will help clear the fog. And I'm happy that this self improvement will make me feel and be better no matter what she chooses.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

A10 really, sorry dont buy it, love is blind. See a 10 world also have integrity and honor which you WW does not. So at best she is a 7. While you the faithful spouse is +1 above any cheater at all times.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

*Boundaries*

Maybe one of the most tossed about ideas in discussions of marriage, problems within marriage and families, the word gets so misunderstood so often that discussions about boundaries seem to permeate nearly every thread of those dealing with a marriage in crisis. This is a starting point to discuss boundaries in general or generic terms rather than how to apply them to our own lives. Feel free to add to the discussion or to seek clarification but try to limit the discussion to boundaries and not application to a particular situation. 


Everybody has their own ideas of what a boundary should look like or what it is intended to accomplish for their lives. Poor boundaries are often mentioned as one of the reasons for an affair and also comes up in the discussion of how to deal with an affair by our spouse.

For me, the definitive definition of boundaries comes from the work of Doctors John Townsend and Henry Cloud and their original book _Boundaries_. A more recent book by the same authors is _Boundaries In Marriage_. 

The original book did more to help me fight for my marriage than any other single book I read during those dark days when the outcome for my marriage was uncertain. It helped me to realize that what and who I was and what I would become was under my direct control while also showing me that what my wife might do was not under my control, though I might be able to influence her choices by protecting my own well defined boundaries. It gave me the understanding of what outcomes were within my control and let me learn to let go of outcomes that were not under my control.

So what are *boundaries*?
*
A boundary is NOT:*


A line in the sand that when crossed results in the interloper being bludgeoned into retreat.
A method of getting what you want from someone else.
A way to control the actions of other people.
A punishment for violating our rights as individuals.
An expectation of what someone else will, might or should do or not do.
A wall that separates me from another person or all other people that prevents me from healthy interaction.
An excuse for me to act badly or fail to respect the boundaries of others.
A way to avoid conflict.

*A boundary IS:*


A definition of what is mine and what is not mine.
A declaration of what is within my realm of control or influence as to outcome.
A statement of what I will do or not do.
A protection for me by establishing what is mine and what belongs to someone else.
A way for me to be respected as an individual with rights that go with being one.
An indication of my own self worth, value and self esteem.
A way to deal with conflict that respects others and requires respect from them.

You choose your own boundaries but can never set a boundary for anyone else. 

If a person violates YOUR boundary, YOU determine the outcome for violation but never the actions of the other person.

A good boundary is all about YOU and never about what anyone else does.

A boundary can't be a castle wall because folks who retreat inside of castles when under attack end up starving to death as the result of siege. The enemy attacks, tests defenses, finds weaknesses to exploit, and waits out the defenders until the outer defenses finally fail. Then the only recourse is further retreat to ever smaller defenses until you're left with a single tiny room in which you live out the rest of your days as the attackers simply wait for you to die.

Walls as boundaries result in ever smaller boundaries until real life becomes impossible. Poorly defined boundaries always result in violations by others since the boundary is neither clearly defined nor well established.

Good boundaries are like hedge rows between property lines. They do not prevent interaction or the free flow of movement from place to place for either those inside or those outside. They simply establish what is under the control of one person and what is not. 

My neighbor can't set conditions for what I do within my boundaries and neither can I set conditions for what he will do within his own boundaries. If he violates my boundaries, the problem is not that I have weak boundaries but that he does not have strong boundaries.

A marriage in crisis can't be saved by good boundaries but it can't be saved without them. Boundaries aren't about changing the actions of our spouse. They only define what is mine and what is not. They tell me and the world, including my spouse, what belongs to me alone, what lies within, while allowing me to let go of trying to control the things that lie without.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Good luck LOTR. 

I'm wondering about the last few years if she felt everything, including carreers, finances, housing, locale, has just been going down hill.

What was it about the OM do you think was the big attraction? Wasn't he freinds with you both?


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