# My story



## mr hillbilly (Jul 16, 2012)

I'm finally getting the courage to start my own thread... I've been a member for years and just want to get my own advice rather than ride the coattails of someone else's story.
I'm going to try and copy paste my post from another thread to keep it easy.


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## mr hillbilly (Jul 16, 2012)

> Originally Posted by SoVeryLost
> That's because; as in this example, it's the guy who feels something is lacking and is looking for more.
> 
> His wife is having her needs met, so what's there to fix from her perspective?
> ...


This is the exact problem I'm facing and I struggle with it often. This is exactly my wife. What problem.... In her eyes everything is great right up until the moment I remind her that I'm not happy. 

I normally go the passive aggressive route and it always fails but I'm learning. Today I sent an email, a forward from a self help blog on the subject of improving sexual communication and said this was something we should look at. I guess it was slightly passive aggressive but I thought it was less confrontational. 

She immediately blows up and goes on the defensive. Blaming me for once again pointing out how she's a bad wife and how I'm trying to make her feel bad. At this point she tries to rationalize how one rejection equates to a problem... Stating that we don't have problems and there are plenty of people with real problems. She also then goes on to blame me for ruining her day.. This was all done via email at 6am this morning. 

I'm lost.....


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## mr hillbilly (Jul 16, 2012)

Some more context... Married for 14 years next week. 2 kids both elementary school age. We (I) have struggled with our sex life for years. We average about 5x month... Always 100% vanilla. She never takes her shirt off, won't dress up or want anything but a quickie. She orgasms almost every time and I know because she tells me if I missed or it isn't happening.


My wife currently stays home but she worked in a demanding professional career up until last fall; after 15 years. 

She's currently on a break from work which I fully support and we are by no means struggling financially. She was completely burning out and we were at our lowest of lows because I was feeling constantly neglected in and out of the bedroom.

I'm a very engaged (needy?) Husband and father. We share all chores and child responsibilities equally... Especially since my wife quit her job. She loved her job but basically quit because it was ruining her health and our marriage. I'm fairly certain that she doesn't resent the fact that I'm the reason she quit her job. She loves being home for the kids every night and is now very active volunteering at school.

We fight about every two months... Which is the half life of my tolerance of my situation. With the exception of the email noted above I always pouted and kicked the hornets nest late at night after rejection. That never, ever works out and I know it.... But I still do it... Until this week.

I'm trying to find the right way to communicate that I'm not happy with our sex life....


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## mr hillbilly (Jul 16, 2012)

Also... The reason for a 6am email exchange after a night of rejection.

I had been out of town for a few days then came home for one night and had an early morning flight out that next day. I was then going to be gone for a few more days followed by a long weekend (this weekend) at the in laws. I knew I would be home after her monthly problem arrived so I expected/hoped we could plan for some alone time before another long drought.

I knew going into it that I'd be picking a fight if I protested her lack of desire... And I avoided the fight until my email the next day.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Well if you have been here for awhile you have already heard about NMMNG and MMSLP. If you have not read them I suggest you do. In the meantime quit being needy. Quit pouting when she doesn't want sex. You need to detach emotionally and realize your a man now. If you had to you could survive alone. You need to start being the family leader if your not already doing that. Get a hobby that is interesting hopefully something manly. Give her some room to breath.

Do you do things for her because you think it will get you laid? If so stop it now. Do things for her because you love her. When she wants to talk, do you stop and listen to her. Yesterday my wife started talking about her day while I was watching TV. I turned off the TV and listened to her. She told me I didn't have to turn off the TV, and I told her that what she had to say was way more interesting than anything on TV. It's the little things that add up.

Now I'm not going to bullsh1t you. I have been in the same boat as you, and we are not where I want to be yet, but I think we're getting there. It wasn't until I started detaching and quit being needy that things have started to improve. Good luck to the both of you.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Oh, if your moping when you don't get laid, she will start to see you as one of her kids, and I can promise you she will not want to have sex with one of her kids. When you get denied act as though it doesn't bother you in the least.


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## bestwife (May 10, 2014)

Yep, I agree with Thound:iagree:


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

At this point she's most likely wishing you'd just give it a rest already. She knows you want sex, she doesn't. And the more you don't get it the more you want it and the rejection has you frustrated and lonely. And you also may be coming off as needy and pathetic. 

Thound had some good advice but it is not the be all and end all to this. You have to follow through with it. 

You definitely have to be willing to end your marriage and walk away if all you do has no effect whatsoever. 

She may be done with you and is detaching already and you just don't know it because you are so focused on your own needs you can't see it. Watch her actions they are the real deal. 

Earlier I suggested in response to one of your posts that your wife blaming you for ruining her day is the vast amount of sexual pressure she is feeling from you. She may also be feeling like she can not satisfy you. You did send her an email about sex at 6am in the morning. 

Some guys on here may even suggest that at 5x a month that is more sex than they get in a year. 

Before I left I was having sex about once every 6 to 8 weeks. If I was paying attention to her I would have seen that she had been detaching for years. She had even begun using sex as a weapon telling me that we were not having sex that evening because of my arguing with her in the morning. ( true that ) 

Time to man up, get some hobbies, male friends, stop being available etc. In fact suggest on this latest trip out of town that you may stay over a little longer just to see what the town your in has to offer in the way of excitement. And next time she rejects you and as Thound suggests don't act pouty. In fact have a plan b that has you leaving the house to go "do" something else. Whatever, anything, go for a walk, just get out. Don't come back for a while. If you must pout do it where she can't see you. 

Work on yourself because you may be single soon. 

"The harder you work on yourself the more the external things you couldn't change, will change on their own" .


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

mr hillbilly said:


> Thank you for your response... I don't want to hijack neuklas thread.. I think it's high time I start my own. I'll cut and paste to get it started.


Well you're welcome. But I was really more interested in your 'reaction' to what I wrote.

Otherwise, I can't get a 'read' on 'where you're at'...

Though I'm pretty sure I've already 'got it'...

*"I've been a member for years and just want to get my own advice rather than ride the coattails of someone else's story.
I'm going to try and copy paste my post from another thread to keep it easy."*

I have a feeling that subconsciously you want this to be easier than it will be.

I think that's why you've been a member for years. 

I think that's why you'd rather believe the words of advice left for other OP's "are coattails different than your own."

This going to sound unflattering but I don't mean it that way okay?

*Your story isn't special. 
*

Now YOU may be special.

But _your story_ is not (I'm actually grateful for this fact).


And it means I write the same thing OVER and OVER again on this board.

And every single time I do it, I'm convinced I just gave some internet stranger the VERY BEST ADVICE they could've asked for.

And I think that's what most advice-givers here do. We all write very similar things repeatedly. We give you our own 'take' on your problem. 

Then you'll ultimately glom onto the advice which you're able to 'get'. You'll focus on that advice and ignore everything else.

That's exactly what will happen here in your very own thread.

And if you're honest, you'll realize that everything that gets posted in this thread is all stuff you've read before.

Your coattails are gonna be the same coattails as other frustrated husbands.

(and, as in other threads, some of the 'coattails' offered will be good and some will be bad)


And if the advice that's similar to that advice I gave in the other thread is the advice that 'resonates' with you...well then Yay!!. You picked the good coattails. No doubt. 

(And even though I'm sorta tempted to write j/k...I won't, because I'm DEAD SERIOUS.Obviously I think my advice is right or I wouldn't offer it)

Still, I don't really get to decide 'rightness' for you. You do. 

(and I'll just hope you're NOT actually WRONG when you decide what's RIGHT) 

Anyway, if you read Neuklas's thread, then I think it'd be superfluous for me to re-write all the stuff I just wrote there so I won't. (I'd be happy to try to clarify any concept though.)

I'm also still going to give you the absolute VERY BEST ADVICE I believe you could've asked for in YOUR OWN thread. 

So here it goes:

*Solving the sexual-issues in your marriage is NOT EVER going to be easy for you to do. Never, ever.

It's gonna feel VERY hard. 

It's going to take courage.

And ultimately you're going to accept the difficulties involved in solving your problem or you're not.

And that's actually the HARDEST part of the whole darn thing. The ACCEPTING.

If you can't ever accept those difficulties, you are going to spend more and more of your years feeling the EXACT SAME UNHAPPINESS that you've already felt for years.
*

Well.

That's it. 

That's THE VERY BEST I think you could've asked for Mr. Hillbilly.

I'd happily bet my life without a second thought on what I just wrote as being the absolute truest thing I could write to you.

I KNOW that that is the Perfect and Utter Truth.

And I just _really hope_ that (at least someday) you agree with me.

Oh, and fwiw, that's also how _I'll know_ whether you're 'special' or not. People who agree with me are always EXTREMELY SPECIAL 

I wish you luck!!!


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## Janky (Nov 26, 2013)

As others here, i went exactly what you are going through.

Having talks wont cut it, pouting and getting mad wont cut it, you need to set some boundaries and be prepared to walk away.

I walked away after many failed talks and basically she didnt care if my needs werent met or not.

Not something i ever want to go through again in my life.

If sex issues ever happened again in a future relationship, I would be out the door real quick.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

Hillbilly; Bravo for posting your own thread. Takes some guts.

Can't add much to what's already been said.

Just emphasize my own experience, learned the hard way that women HATE pouting. I've done my share of pouting and it never did any good except to decompress my own dissatisfaction.

However, if the woman does care, pouting at least can lead to "what's wrong" which can lead to a conversation and then you have something.

But, should have started the conversation to begin with after ruminating and thinking about what to say.

On the other hand, some woman will just be turned off period and not even ask what's wrong. They will just resent you or give you the silent treatment


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

CanadianGuy said:


> Some guys on here may even suggest that at 5x a month that is more sex than they get in a year.
> 
> .


You have nothing to complain about here. I wouldn't be here if I was getting sex 5x/month. I don't know what that would be like. I actually find your post a little insulting.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

jb02157 said:


> You have nothing to complain about here. I wouldn't be here if I was getting sex 5x/month. I don't know what that would be like. I actually find your post a little insulting.


I would be here starting a thread like this if if I was only getting sex 5 times/month. That may be great for you, but terrible for others.


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## mr hillbilly (Jul 16, 2012)

IndiaInk said:


> Well you're welcome. But I was really more interested in your 'reaction' to what I wrote.
> 
> Otherwise, I can't get a 'read' on 'where you're at'...
> 
> Though I'm pretty sure I've already 'got it'...


I’m glad that you reposted over here…and sorry for the delay in responding.



IndiaInk said:


> I have a feeling that subconsciously you want this to be easier than it will be.
> 
> I think that's why you've been a member for years.
> 
> ...


I realize my story isn’t special or different but it feels good to “tell” someone else about it. I also know it’s hard and that’s why I’m here. I don’t understand why it has to be so hard but we’re all human and in those moment I do try to do what I think is right even though I regret it almost immediately. 



IndiaInk said:


> *Solving the sexual-issues in your marriage is NOT EVER going to be easy for you to do. Never, ever.
> 
> It's gonna feel VERY hard.
> 
> ...


I 100% agree that it’s hard but I don’t understand what I have to “accept”. If it’s accepting that it’s hard…well that’s easy. But I’m here trying to figure out how to fine tune all the advice I’ve read in every other thread and make it work in my situation.

For starters. I guess I’ll re-read MMSLP because it’s been a while. I don’t ever get to do guy stuff because I don’t have any real friends locally so I need to pick up a hobby or get back into mountain biking. All my local guy “friends” are just parents of the kids my kids hang out with. 

I told my wife in a text (works been busy and we haven’t had time to talk this week at all) that I know that I can’t make her desire me anymore than she currently does so the solution lies in my attitude and approach. I told her I’d focus on myself and let nature take it’s course. 

I just need to live by that mantra!


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## mr hillbilly (Jul 16, 2012)

*Re: Re: My story*



jb02157 said:


> You have nothing to complain about here. I wouldn't be here if I was getting sex 5x/month. I don't know what that would be like. I actually find your post a little insulting.


I guess to each his own.


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

You told her you'd focus on yourself (?) 

That may not seem like entirely big news to her as perhaps from her perspective you have been focusing on getting your needs met and asking her for sex. ( focusing on your needs ) 

To her maybe that means more of the same from you(?) 

You don't need to explain anything to her Mr. Hillbilly unless she asks you too. And even then you need not explain.


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## mr hillbilly (Jul 16, 2012)

*Re: Re: My story*



Janky said:


> As others here, i went exactly what you are going through.
> 
> Having talks wont cut it, pouting and getting mad wont cut it, you need to set some boundaries and be prepared to walk away.
> 
> ...


I appreciate your post. I agree that appearing needy will fail 100% of the time and yet I can't stop. I do think my wife wants to please me but she has told me countless times in the heat of an argument that I should just find someone else. I don't want that and I believe she doesn't either.


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## mr hillbilly (Jul 16, 2012)

*Re: Re: My story*



bjornchon said:


> You need to start being the family leader if your not already doing that.


I agree and it is tough with two alpha dogs. We both always just took the lead depending on the situation.


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## neuklas (Jun 13, 2013)

mr hillbilly said:


> I told my wife in a text (works been busy and we haven’t had time to talk this week at all) that I know that I can’t make her desire me anymore than she currently does so the solution lies in my attitude and approach. I told her I’d focus on myself and let nature take it’s course.
> 
> I just need to live by that mantra!


Hey man, I know you read my thread, so you know where I am.

What's done is done, but I think the above is a mistake.

There is no need to tell her what you're doing re: this change you're going to work on. It's almost self defeating.

Don't talk to her about it anymore. Talk here on your thread. At home, just do.

Congrats on starting your own thread and beginning the process.

Good luck.


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## mr hillbilly (Jul 16, 2012)

*Re: Re: My story*



neuklas said:


> Hey man, I know you read my thread, so you know where I am.
> 
> What's done is done, but I think the above is a mistake.
> 
> ...


OK I appreciate that. So I'm sitting here at the airport waiting for my flight and call my wife who I've spoken to about 10 minutes in total since I sent her that email on Wed. She's complaining about her Mom nagging her for not calling enough this week and she tells me that "I guess I can't make anyone happy". I just let it go but I'm sure once we get home and we have some quiet time she'll try to engage me on this whole event. 
How do I respond.. Avoid discussing?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

mr hillbilly said:


> I realize my story isn’t special or different but it feels good to “tell” someone else about it. I also know it’s hard and that’s why I’m here. I don’t understand why it has to be so hard but we’re all human and in those moment I do try to do what I think is right even though I regret it almost immediately.
> 
> I 100% agree that it’s hard but I don’t understand what I have to “accept”. If it’s accepting that it’s hard…well that’s easy. But I’m here trying to figure out how to fine tune all the advice I’ve read in every other thread and make it work in my situation.


The hard is what makes it great. (Bonus points if you can name this movie). 



> For starters. I guess I’ll re-read MMSLP because it’s been a while. I don’t ever get to do guy stuff because I don’t have any real friends locally so I need to pick up a hobby or get back into mountain biking. All my local guy “friends” are just parents of the kids my kids hang out with.


Absolutely. Go make some friends of your own and do some stuff with them on occasion. 



> I told my wife in a text (works been busy and we haven’t had time to talk this week at all) that I know that I can’t make her desire me anymore than she currently does so the solution lies in my attitude and approach. I told her I’d focus on myself and let nature take it’s course.


Stop this. First off, "emotional" discussions by text are a recipe for disaster. No tone and too easy to misconstrue.

But more importantly stop talking about this right now. If you make these changes, do them for yourself. With this text, you just told her that you are doing it for sex. She won't react well to that.

The critical thing is that this has to be for you. That these changes will be permanent even if she up and left you for the pool boy. Because if it is not real change, she will view it as dishonest manipulation.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

mr hillbilly said:


> OK I appreciate that. So I'm sitting here at the airport waiting for my flight and call my wife who I've spoken to about 10 minutes in total since I sent her that email on Wed. She's complaining about her Mom nagging her for not calling enough this week and she tells me that "I guess I can't make anyone happy". I just let it go but I'm sure once we get home and we have some quiet time she'll try to engage me on this whole event.
> How do I respond.. Avoid discussing?


If she wants to talk, then do so, but don't bring it up yourself.

At this point, keep your comments short and ask lots of questions to understand what she is saying and feeling. Don't fight her but let her get it out and make sure you understand what she is feeling. Then tell her you will think about it.


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## mr hillbilly (Jul 16, 2012)

*Re: Re: My story*



Tall Average Guy said:


> The hard is what makes it great. (Bonus points if you can name this movie).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Damn....I really have screwed up this week. I completely understand what you are saying and am kicking myself over it. I agree. I do want to do this for myself only.


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## mr hillbilly (Jul 16, 2012)

*Re: Re: My story*



Tall Average Guy said:


> The hard is what makes it great. (Bonus points if you can name this movie).


There is no crying in baseball


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

mr hillbilly said:


> Damn....I really have screwed up this week. I completely understand what you are saying and am kicking myself over it. I agree. I do want to do this for myself only.


We all screw up. Learn from it and move on. 

Posting here is to help you figure out what to do and how to do it.

Remember that right now, she feels a lot of pressure with sex. By not bringing it up right now, you take some of that pressure off of her and some control for when she does discuss it.

So focus on your actions and your improvement. Get that on the right track first.


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## mr hillbilly (Jul 16, 2012)

*Re: Re: My story*



Tall Average Guy said:


> We all screw up. Learn from it and move on.
> 
> Posting here is to help you figure out what to do and how to do it.
> 
> ...


I'm on it!!! If only we weren't going to the in laws this weekend I could get started on some me time. About to take off... Until I return..


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

What I hear you saying is that when you communicate to your wife that you want to have sex with her more often, she hears it as criticism. The book "Crucial Conversations" has a way of approaching this that I think is at least a good start. I'm not seeing how "working on you" will help the situation. To me its about communicating with her in a way that lets her see your point of view and have compassion for you without getting defensive. There are ways that you can approach her that increase or decrease the likelihood that she will get defensive. Dr. John Gottman calls it a "soft start up."


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

:smthumbup:


mr hillbilly said:


> I’m glad that you reposted over here…and sorry for the delay in responding.
> 
> 
> I realize my story isn’t special or different but it feels good to “tell” someone else about it. I also know it’s hard and that’s why I’m here. I don’t understand why it has to be so hard but we’re all human and in those moment I do try to do what I think is right even though I regret it almost immediately.
> ...


If I sent my wife that note she would think GREAT! He is going to get off my back about having sex more. Which would result in even less sex.


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## mr hillbilly (Jul 16, 2012)

*Re: Re: My story*



firebelly1 said:


> What I hear you saying is that when you communicate to your wife that you want to have sex with her more often, she hears it as criticism. The book "Crucial Conversations" has a way of approaching this that I think is at least a good start. I'm not seeing how "working on you" will help the situation. To me its about communicating with her in a way that lets her see your point of view and have compassion for you without getting defensive. There are ways that you can approach her that increase or decrease the likelihood that she will get defensive. Dr. John Gottman calls it a "soft start up."


Hmmm. I had not thought about that but I will certainly get my hands on that book. How much experience do you have with that book?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> At this point, keep your comments short and ask lots of questions to understand what she is saying and feeling. Don't fight her but let her get it out and make sure you understand what she is feeling. Then tell her you will think about it.



My psychic powers read Mrs. Hillbilly as someone still not accepting her SAHM role and longing for the corporate world. Never mind she did not want the corporate world. Grass, always, green, etc.

Probably nothing to do with Mr. Hillbilly too. If she isn't happy with her current situation, Mr. H. Could be Harrison Ford for all we know and she won't care.

Likely she won't cough up any useful insight about what she's feeling, and further efforts to probe won't reveal anything useful.

Just guesses.


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## mr hillbilly (Jul 16, 2012)

*Re: Re: My story*



john117 said:


> My psychic powers read Mrs. Hillbilly as someone still not accepting her SAHM role and longing for the corporate world. Never mind she did not want the corporate world. Grass, always, green, etc.
> 
> Probably nothing to do with Mr. Hillbilly too. If she isn't happy with her current situation, Mr. H. Could be Harrison Ford for all we know and she won't care.
> 
> ...


John you are so very correct.

I can't tell you how many times I have heard her "threaten" to go back to work. And her going back to work would really suck for me because I'll have to pick up 90% of the child responsibilities. This was one of the main reason she quit in the first place. The other reasons she quit were no time for herself. She committed to getting the house in tip top shape and wanted to focus on her health and the 30 lbs she wanted to lose. Well six months later the house is still a mess and she hasn't been to the gym since October.

And just as you surmised she is the most stubborn person I've ever met.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

firebelly1 said:


> What I hear you saying is that when you communicate to your wife that you want to have sex with her more often, she hears it as criticism.


:iagree:.

My guess? She's digging in her heels because she needs to be appreciated for who she really is, flaws and all. The more she feels she doesn't (can't?) measure up, the less she's inclined to try, and the more she'll just brace herself for your eventual departure. 

To break the cycle, she needs to know (learn?) that this isn't just about "fixing" her or servicing you, it's about really hearing each other, understanding each other, and accepting each other, foibles and all.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

She will eventually go back to work. I did the 90% of child rearing (and have two daughters who are ace video game players like dad ). For my wife, work is her life. 

What line of work is she in? Stress at work? Can she find part time work? Fewer hours? Your kids should be old enough to be on their own (or not preschoolers)...


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

mr hillbilly said:


> I can't tell you how many times I have heard her "threaten" to go back to work. And her going back to work would really suck for me because I'll have to pick up 90% of the child responsibilities. This was one of the main reason she quit in the first place. The other reasons she quit were no time for herself. She committed to getting the house in tip top shape and wanted to focus on her health and the 30 lbs she wanted to lose. Well six months later the house is still a mess and she hasn't been to the gym since October.


I don't really know your back story, but hearing this, I'd also suspect she's pretty depressed about being trapped at home with nothing to do but clean he house for hours and rearrange the flowers.


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## mr hillbilly (Jul 16, 2012)

*Re: Re: My story*



john117 said:


> She will eventually go back to work. I did the 90% of child rearing (and have two daughters who are ace video game players like dad ). For my wife, work is her life.
> 
> What line of work is she in? Stress at work? Can she find part time work? Fewer hours? Your kids should be old enough to be on their own (or not preschoolers)...


I'm not against her going back to work and she had an unsolicited offer to do some part time contract work here in our home town with flex hours. That would be much better than commuting 45 minutes to the city. She hasn't responded to the offer...I need to see where that stands. 

The stress from work is all due to her committing 110% to everything she does. Usually it involves picking up the slack for other "incompetent" people. She's a perfectionist and doesn't know how to say no....except to me.

Kids are grade school (K & 3)


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## mr hillbilly (Jul 16, 2012)

*Re: Re: My story*



always_alone said:


> I don't really know your back story, but hearing this, I'd also suspect she's pretty depressed about being trapped at home with nothing to do but clean he house for hours and rearrange the flowers.


That's possible but from what I can tell she enjoys sleeping in now and doesn't necessarily resent being home. She's volunteering at school (upcoming pto pres) and helping me with my job as cub scout pack leader.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

People here going to suggest literature or toughening up, or doing chores, or ignoring her, or not feeling so down when you get rejected...again.

I'm going to tell you something that is rare on this board.

You can't fix this. Nothing you do will help this situation. Absolutely nothing. Leaving her alone gives her what she wants and complaining about it gives her an excuse not to give it to you.

Prepare to leave or prepare for a lifetime of misery. These situations do not work out. I am sorry for you. I truly am. I am there accept I have finally realized there is nothing to be done but to suffer or leave....or cheat.


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## mr hillbilly (Jul 16, 2012)

*Re: Re: My story*



always_alone said:


> :iagree:.
> 
> To break the cycle, she needs to know (learn?) that this isn't just about "fixing" her or servicing you, it's about really hearing each other, understanding each other, and accepting each other, foibles and all.


This reverts back to the general communication issue. I don't know how to fix it, when or where or why it started declining.

I'm going to take a look at that book mentioned earlier.

She often acknowledges that sex is our only problem but yet sex is the symptom of another problem that we haven't discovered yet.


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## mr hillbilly (Jul 16, 2012)

*Re: Re: My story*



sinnister said:


> You can't fix this. Nothing you do will help this situation. Absolutely nothing. Leaving her alone gives her what she wants and complaining about it gives her an excuse not to give it to you.


Yes this scares the crap out of me because I'm afraid you are right.


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## mr hillbilly (Jul 16, 2012)

*Re: Re: My story*



SadSamIAm said:


> :smthumbup:
> 
> If I sent my wife that note she would think GREAT! He is going to get off my back about having sex more. Which would result in even less sex.


Exactly as was just posted...it frustrates me to no end that she is 100% in control of our sex life. 100 f'n %! I'm not in control of anything in the bedroom.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

mr hillbilly said:


> This reverts back to the general communication issue. I don't know how to fix it, when or where or why it started declining.


It's a danger, I think, that comes from living with someone for a long time. You get to know each other so well, or at least you think you do, and fall into these patterns of relating, making assumptions about each other's intentions and feelings, and taking each other for granted.

Such habits can be very hard to break, especially since change is so often met with resistance, and it's so easy to slip back into the familiar dynamic. But it's at least possible.


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## SoVeryLost (May 14, 2012)

I'm no expert, but one thing I tire of in reading these threads is how much power these women have, and how much focus is placed on their needs.

She wanted to be a SAHM. She wanted more time to herself. She wanted to focus on the housework and her health. And all the while you're walking on eggshells around her, hoping if you don't screw up you just might get a sympathy lay.

Screw. That.

Some of you can psycho-analyze until you're blue in the face and strategize and plot, but I just don't get it. You cannot fit every individual human into a neat little box and hypothesize that doing a and b will get you c. I honestly believe the advice of getting your own hobbies and focusing on yourself makes you a stronger individual and a more interesting prospect to someone new when the time comes. Will your spouse really care enough that you took up rock climbing to put out? She may look at you oddly and be temporarily curious why you're acting out of character, but that too will fade after it becomes your new normal. Then you're back to square one. After all of these stops have been pulled and she quits responding sexually yet again, then what're you going to do?

If it works, more power to you, and I am happy for you. But to be married to someone who doesn't work, has her needs constantly focused on and attended to, and then can't reciprocate in a way (i.e. sex in this case) that would be meaningful to you... I don't get it. At some point you have to question why her needs have to be the sole center of attention while you wait in the wings for her to come around. You can say that's not what you're doing, but in reality I think it is. I see this method having some short term success, but I question the validity of its long term implications. 

Some of these women --most of them-- have the world handed to them and it seems its just too much to ask for them to put out Once in a while. Bizarre. They have no clue, NO CLUE, how many women would kill to be in their shoes for just one day.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

mr hillbilly said:


> The stress from work is all due to her committing 110% to everything she does. Usually it involves picking up the slack for other "incompetent" people. She's a perfectionist and doesn't know how to say no....except to me.



Sounds familiar... In my wife's line of work (IT consulting) she's a legend for producing quality work that exceeds client expectations. Duh, if you work 16 hours a day... I appreciate her motivation but lady... Get a life.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

SoVeryLost said:


> Some of these women --most of them-- have the world handed to them and it seems its just too much to ask for them to put out Once in a while. Bizarre. They have no clue, NO CLUE, how many women would kill to be in their shoes for just one day.


It could be this one-sided, bit I bet most times it's not.

Few of us are all that perfect.


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## SoVeryLost (May 14, 2012)

always_alone said:


> It could be this one-sided, bit I bet most times it's not.
> 
> Few of us are all that perfect.


It's not about perfection. It's about having someone who cherishes you enough to want to make your relationship work, bottom line. I can't fathom what it would be like to have someone care enough about me to want my attention, to care whether we make it or not, to take an active role in the relationship. 

Clearly our opinions are subjective to our own personal experiences, so perhaps I'm more jaded than most. What I crave most - the feeling of someone actually giving a [email protected] - is what so many others take for granted. I'm more sensitive to that because I've never had it. I just wonder once these wives lose what they have if they'll look back and realize the depth of how much they've lost.


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

Sorry, I think that VERY BEST advice was somewhat vague.

When I say 'accept that it's hard', I don't mean just acknowledge it verbally.

If someone says "dieting is hard" that's not the same as accepting the difficulties and actually sticking to a hard diet right?


You've only actually accepted the HARD THING when you DO THE HARD THING.

And if I think that deep down a person 'knows what they have to do' but is *still asking* for 'some solution' for their problem---then I don't think they've accepted it yet. 

I don't know if deep down you 'know' what you have to do or not.

If you're interested, I've got 'self-reflection exercise' I think would be helpful for you and might illuminate 'where you're at' in this whole process.

Think back to this blow-up:

_"She immediately blows up and goes on the defensive. Blaming me for once again pointing out how she's a bad wife and how I'm trying to make her feel bad. At this point she tries to rationalize how one rejection equates to a problem... Stating that we don't have problems and there are plenty of people with real problems. She also then goes on to blame me for ruining her day.. This was all done via email at 6am this morning. "_

_____________________________________________________

1. First I would like to know what is the *one emotion you instantly *feel THE MOST when 'she suddenly blows up'. Just picture it happening and grab the first emotion---I have a feeling there is a main one.

2. Then, tell me what that instant emotion compels you to do in the moment. What things do you start saying/ doing---and what's your main goal in saying and doing them.


3. Then, after the blow-up passes, and you're alone by yourself can you tell me what, (if any) other emotions you feel about that blow-up? and the fact that it happened---other the MAIN one that she triggers during it.



4. Okay, this is the most important part of this 'exercise' (and thus, it's the part I'm worried you'll mess up--so please don't  ).

Below I've written her 'blow-up arguments' down. I've fleshed them out (but I think I've done this fairly).

I've written them with 'emotionally charged' language deliberately, BUT I'd like you to approach them as if they were just emotionless 'statements of facts' that she's asserting are absolutely true. She's just offering you facts that she feels are true. 

I'd like for you to write underneath each one your own response to these statements. Not exactly a 'counter-argument' to them. Just write How YOU REALLY FEEL about these FACTS. How true are they to YOU? 

JUST be totally honest here. What are your REAL THOUGHTS about these arguments.

Basically, with each one you're writing: _"I don't know if this is good or bad, right or wrong, but this is just how I feel_______"_


*1. You just love to make me feel like I'm a bad wife don't you? You enjoy making me feel badly. You enjoy trying to hurt me. I don't understand why you like to do that to me!

2. You take one tiny rejection and try to turn it into some massive problem in our marriage. I think you want to ruin our marriage. I never do this sort of thing to you. Because I don't want to ruin it. But for some reason you seem to.

3. Sex is not even a 'problem'. Good Lord, it's sex!! It's JUST sex. There are tons of people who get diagnosed with cancer, or who get paralyzed in an accident. You know what those are? Those are ACTUAL PROBLEMS. 

4. Well thanks. Thank-you so much. Thank-you SO MUCH for absolutely ruining my day. Wow, I have a husband who LOVES to ruin my day. That's great to know.*


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

IndiaInk said:


> 1. First I would like to know what is the *one emotion you instantly *feel THE MOST when 'she suddenly blows up'. Just picture it happening and grab the first emotion---I have a feeling there is a main one.


Déjà-vu, but I'll have to check with my DSM-IV to see if it's listed  otherwise, not really surprise or most any emotion. She has a blowout. A dog is barking. Duh.



> 2. Then, tell me what that instant emotion compels you to do in the moment. What things do you start saying/ doing---and what's your main goal in saying and doing them.


Try to find even a remote shred of reason for the blow-out to be valid. Just to make sure you aren't seeing things, you know... 



> 3. Then, after the blow-up passes, and you're alone by yourself can you tell me what, (if any) other emotions you feel about that blow-up? and the fact that it happened---other the MAIN one that she triggers during it.


Upset with myself if this was a new type of blow-out that I did not predict (rare) or pleased with myself that the blow out occurred on cue as expected.



> 1. You just love to make me feel like I'm a bad wife don't you? You enjoy making me feel badly. You enjoy trying to hurt me.


I'm not doing anything of the sort. You're doing an excellent job on your own to make yourself feel bad.



> 2. You're just trying to make me feel bad about myself. I don't understand why you like to do that to me!


See above. I have nothing to gain by making you feel bad.



> 3. You take one tiny rejection and try to turn it into some massive problem in our marriage. I think you want to ruin our marriage. I never do this sort of thing to do. Because I don't want to ruin it. For some reason you seem to.


It's far from a tiny rejection - it's the whole issue of emotional connection that you absolutely fail to comprehend.



> 4. Sex is not even a 'problem'. Good Lord, it's sex!! It's JUST sex. There are tons of people who get diagnosed with cancer, or who get paralyzed in an accident. You know what those are? Those are ACTUAL PROBLEMS.


Lucky for us we can both wiggle our toes and the biopsies are clean. Are you always fearful of the worst thing that could possibly happen? 



> 5. Well thanks. Thank-you so much. Thank-you SO MUCH for absolutely ruining my day. Wow, I have a husband who LOVES to ruin my day. That's great to know.[/I][/B]



You have ruined much more than a day from where I stand. If a day bothers you think of ironing months or years off my life.


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

sinnister said:


> People here going to suggest literature or toughening up, or doing chores, or ignoring her, or not feeling so down when you get rejected...again.
> 
> I'm going to tell you something that is rare on this board.
> 
> ...


I feel for you Sinnister. And I wish I could help you but I know I can't. 

You say no one can fix this problem.

But I say YOU ABSOLUTELY can. I've said that to A LOT to people. 

And I am NOT a liar.

You absolutely KNOW how you have to solve your problem. You just reject the solution.

_
Prepare to leave or prepare for a lifetime of misery.

Suffer or Leave_

Yep, you've pretty much 'got it'.

At heart, this is it:

*The moment Your DESIRE to LEAVE becomes GREATER than your DESIRE to stay and suffer is the moment you've solved your problem.*


That's really it. And that's REALLY, REALLY HARD to DO.

You CANNOT DO IT. Many CANNOT do it.

I'm always honest about these facts.

Still---


That is _your_ solution. That's the OP's solution.

Oddly enough, this IN NO WAY MEANS that the marriage actually ends and you leave. 

It may end. It may not.

And you know you will accept EITHER of these realities OVER continuing in your present misery.

I'm sorry if you don't like this solution.

And it's totally fine to say you won't accept it. 

But don't say that there isn't one, just because you don't like what it is.

That's not a fair. And it's not true.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

IndiaInk said:


> So here it goes:
> 
> *Solving the sexual-issues in your marriage is NOT EVER going to be easy for you to do. Never, ever.
> 
> ...


Completely agree. I would add a final thought:

Mr. Hillbilly might find that these problems cannot be fixed. That doesn't mean he did something wrong - sometimes these things don't work out. It does mean he will have to figure out for himself was is the right amount of effort and what his Plan B is.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> You have ruined much more than a day from where I stand. If a day bothers you think of ironing months or years off my life.


John, you really are hurt by your wife. You always make like it doesn't bother you, but that remark right there betrays you. It is so sad.

You sure you don't want to say this to her?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

mr hillbilly said:


> I appreciate your post. I agree that appearing needy will fail 100% of the time and yet I can't stop. I do think my wife wants to please me but she has told me countless times in the heat of an argument that I should just find someone else. I don't want that and I believe she doesn't either.


You don't know that.

She obviously gets something out your marriage or at least feels compelled to stay in it for some reason.

But, understand this. She gains absolutely nothing by telling you essentially you simply will not get what you need from her. She is not saying you can change this, or that she cares to.

She has no reason to lie about this. In fact, telling you comes at the risk that she will lose whatever does keep her around. You therefore must understand that she is serious about this.

Said differently, even if you are right that she does not want you to find someone else, that does not mean she wants to do better by you. Most likely, her ideal world is one where you stuck around and dropped the sex issue. The issue is: if you really pushed it and she knew you were serious, would she find a way or leave?


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

SoVeryLost said:


> Clearly our opinions are subjective to our own personal experiences, so perhaps I'm more jaded than most. What I crave most - the feeling of someone actually giving a [email protected] - is what so many others take for granted. I'm more sensitive to that because I've never had it. I just wonder once these wives lose what they have if they'll look back and realize the depth of how much they've lost.


Oh, I so agree that this is important, and that too many take their SO's for granted. And no doubt many who fall into that trap find themselves regretting it later.

And sometimes it probably is one spouse that causes the rift, be it mental disorder or just blind selfishness. 

But I don't think most people blow up for no cause or are willfully not giving a damn about their spouses. They are hurt, resentful, fearful, or otherwise provoked, and are reacting as much as they are lashing out.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

always_alone said:


> It could be this one-sided, bit I bet most times it's not.
> 
> Few of us are all that perfect.


Perfection is not the point. You are overthinking this.

It is really very easy. If I am working hard every day to provide (a hypothetical) you what you want, are you working equally hard to give back just as much? If so, then we're good. If not, then that is the essential problem.

I would wager that lots of times (not most, but certainly not rarely) the issue is one of the spouses comes to feel that he or she deserves better than equal give and take, feels his or her goals are more important, etc.

I'll be honest. Seeing someone make a concerted effort to be good to me makes me want to do the same for them, even if they aren't exactly hitting the mark. I will never understand people who think they are actually deserving of superior treatment.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

always_alone said:


> But I don't think most people blow up for no cause or are willfully not giving a damn about their spouses. They are hurt, resentful, fearful, or otherwise provoked, and are reacting as much as they are lashing out.


That may be the case, but I'm not sure that matters.

Let's say my ex (for one) was not intentionally out to hurt me. She can have any number of issues: maybe she doesn't like the way she looks, maybe she has sexual hangups, maybe an ex-boyfriend used her and walked away.

No matter which, the question remains whether that partner will do what it takes to behave in a relationship-friendly manner. It is a simple yes or no question.

At the end of the day, you either are going to overcome your sexual baggage / say no to some volunteer activities / turn off the TV 30 minutes earlier / etc., or you won't.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Did you try to inspire her, DTO? Meet her emotional needs sufficiently, according to her definition of sufficiently?


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

john117 said:


> Déjà-vu, but I'll have to check with my DSM-IV to see if it's listed  otherwise, not really surprise or most any emotion. She has a blowout. A dog is barking. Duh.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


John I'm so glad you responded to this.

And I'd like to ask you a couple things based upon your responses.

But PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE give me a sincere answer to these questions.

In fact, don't respond at all if you just can't do that. 

Because I can't 'offer' you anything new...unless you can give me a different hat.

(C'mon...you can do this just one little time on this board--hell, you can literally DELETE it FOREVER afterwards too):

And hey, since I want a different hat from you. I think I'm giving you a 'different hat' of an approach. 


This is how I'm going to do this. I'm going to write the questions I would like to have you answer as if your wife magically became PERFECT and asked you these questions herself.

So answer these questions as you would if she was sincerely asking you and genuinely wanted to know the answers.

(And if this is FIRST TIME you've ever done this on TAM (which I'm hoping it is) well then I deserve a different hat from you tokay?  )



*
Déjà-vu, but I'll have to check with my DSM-IV to see if it's listed  otherwise, not really surprise or most any emotion. She has a blowout. A dog is barking. Duh.
*

_ Well John, Deja-vu is not really an emotion. Do you ever feel something other than that?

Because I would really like to know--what does the 'Deja-vu' of yet another blow-up between the two of us *FEEL LIKE* to you? When I get mad and start a fight with you what does that make you feel inside?_

(please just give me a lovely smug-free answer. Just the truth. Pretty Please!!)



*See above. I have nothing to gain by making you feel bad.
*
_
Alright. So you if you don't want to make me feel bad---what is it that you really, really wish I would feel when you try to talk to me about things in our marriage that make you unhappy. Ideally, how would I act towards you in your perfect version of our marriage?_


*It's far from a tiny rejection - it's the whole issue of emotional connection that you absolutely fail to comprehend.
*

_Yes, you're right. What do you mean by this? I don't know. How is it far from a tiny rejection? What would 'an emotional connection' between the two of us look like to you? Can you paint me a picture of what that looks like? Can you write a scene of dialogue between us that would 'paint a picture' of this for me'?_

*Are you always fearful of the worst thing that could possibly happen?
*

_Am I always fearful that 'some little thing' is going to lead to you and I having sex (something I consider the 'worst thing ever')?

Well, I don't know. 

But if you indeed feel this is the true state of our relationship---how does this reality make you feel?

How does it make You feel about ME as a woman and your wife, and about yourself as a man and my husband? 

How does it make you feel about the years we have ahead of us both to believe that I dread sleeping with you and consider it "the worst thing that could possibly happen"?
_


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

DTO said:


> No matter which, the question remains whether that partner will do what it takes to behave in a relationship-friendly manner. It is a simple yes or no question.


But perspectives can differ widely. Just because I think I'm acting in a relationship friendly matter, doesn't make it true.

For example, I think I'm working very hard to look after my SO, and working hard to build intimacy and improve our sex life.

He thinks I'm seeing problems where they don't exist and am determined to sabotage what we have. 

Oh, and he also thinks he works very hard on our relationship, and that he is giving me everything a person can want.

So which one of us is right? We are always tempted to think it is us, that is the one actually complaining and working. But there are always two sides.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

jld said:


> Did you try to inspire her, DTO? Meet her emotional needs sufficiently, according to her definition of sufficiently?


Well, the rub in your question is "her definition of sufficiently".

Absolutely I tried to inspire her. I did all of the things she said made her feel special. I made good money (at least before my layoff), worked very hard, yet still did more around the home than she - for years. She was thrilled to have me around, as long as I stayed quiet and didn't complain.

The real issue is that she has a terrible sex drive, childhood issues (the extent of which she failed to disclose - lie of omission) and poor character. She was willing to lie about her attraction to me to get what she wanted and targeted me.

She wasn't into sex with me (she said she wasn't into it period). She admitted she knew but sensed if I knew I would decline her marriage proposal. She hoped it would "work out". But when her feelings didn't change, she bailed on her commitment and refused to fix herself. The marriage was doomed from the start. 

That was the main issue. The major secondary issue is she genuinely felt entitled. She understood the common expectations of marriage, but due to her bad childhood she considered herself exempt and resented I did not feel likewise.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

always_alone said:


> But perspectives can differ widely. Just because I think I'm acting in a relationship friendly matter, doesn't make it true.
> 
> For example, I think I'm working very hard to look after my SO, and working hard to build intimacy and improve our sex life.
> 
> ...


Yeah, that wasn't stated very well.

Let me try again. By relationship friendly what I mean is:

* Let's say the other person is providing what you say you need from the relationship, yet you don't quite "feel it". Do you (1) provide them with what they say they need from the relationship out of respect for their effort and dedication, or (2) still not give back because "if you ain't feeling it then it ain't gonna happen"?

It's easy to be happy when it's all about you. The real question is what do you do when it's not? That is a character question as much as anything. And it is really simple: answer (1) above is right, and answer (2) above is wrong.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

IndiaInk said:


> Well John, Deja-vu is not really an emotion. Do you ever feel something other than that?
> 
> Because I would really like to know--what does the 'Deja-vu' of yet another blow-up between the two of us *FEEL LIKE* to you? When I get mad and start a fight with you what does that make you feel inside?


Expectation is an emotion, and déjà vu is just that. Then we could get into discussions of emotional memory formation and retrieval and I'll never get the yard mowed 

What do I feel? Sad / pity that someone 54 years old, phd, successful professional does not see the obvious because their brain is so messed up and she refuses to acknowledge it. Despite seeing her own mother go down the exact path.

And because instead of using rational analysis and decision making you resort to "it does not look right to me / I do not understand / let's fight".

For that reason I tend to diffuse / mitigate / manipulate things because after the fight she may feel bad about it but there's no learning moment from it. Compassion for her more than anything. If you ever watched the movie "Goodbye Lenin" you know what I mean. 



> *See above. I have nothing to gain by making you feel bad.
> *
> _
> Alright. So you if you don't want to make me feel bad---what is it that you really, really wish I would feel when you try to talk to me about things in our marriage that make you unhappy. Ideally, how would I act towards you in your perfect version of our marriage?_


Let's see... Allow good emotions to overcome dark emotions. You have been in this siege mentality for the better part of six years and there is no good emotion that comes thru. Only dark emotions like fear, mistrust, etc. Not towards me, but towards anyone. Even yourself. Your children. 

You can't run a marriage based on dark emotions. It's that simple. It makes me sad that you do it. I can't help you see good emotions where all you see is dark. I can try but you have to want it. 



> *It's far from a tiny rejection - it's the whole issue of emotional connection that you absolutely fail to comprehend.
> *
> 
> _Yes, you're right. What do you mean by this? I don't know. How is it far from a tiny rejection? What would 'an emotional connection' between the two of us look like to you? Can you paint me a picture of what that looks like? Can you write a scene of dialogue between us that would 'paint a picture' of this for me'?_


The very fact that you are asking me this suggests you do not see any value in an emotional connection. You have told me as much many times. That it's something extra, placed there to inconvenience you like an appendix.

I have a better connection with my lab team and I've only known them for 5-6 years and don't sleep with them! I've known you for 32 and can accurately predict your every move, your every thought. You haven't enough empathy to know which of your country's foods I like and which I don't. Or how your actions impact the rest of is. That's what an emotional connection does. It's not just for teenagers.




> _Am I always fearful that 'some little thing' is going to lead to you and I having sex (something I consider the 'worst thing ever')?
> 
> Well, I don't know.
> 
> ...


This is an accurate statement. Your actions often give the impression that your prime directive is to avoid any kind of emotional contact with us. Not just sex but even contact with your daughters. All thru school and college your only concern was if they got straight A's and nothing at all about their emotional state.

I ended up having to be a mom and a dad to both of them. And to deal with the emotional damage you did to your older daughter.

How do I feel? Right now nothing at all. Like this all happened to the neighbors. It is not worth my effort to feel anything because it won't make up for the last 5-6 years. There's no point wasting good emotions on someone who can't appreciate them.

I feel that the true state of our relationship is simple. We tolerate each other. You have learned to keep quiet and not blow up and I have learned to ignore you. Pretty good outcome. You are too busy (real or pretend) with your work and I'm too busy taking care of the world and saving the whales. 

Feelings towards my wife? That's a good one since you don't act the part. And for me? Same. Just playing our roles thinking the other person won't notice,

What bothers me in all this is that you should be smart enough to see where this train is headed. For some reason you don't. And I'm sure you will freak out when the train takes you to a place you never thought you will go. I tried to warn you but you did not listen.


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

John117, you sound frustrated as hell. 

Perhaps even resentful, bitter, and angry. (?)

It would seem to me that what you are expressing is that your marriage lacks intimacy not just between the sheets but in general. 

You did say you have a closer connection with your lab partners and then expressed that you know your wife's thoughts etc. and then you seem upset about food that you dislike that she doesn't keep track of. 

Maybe she is working a lot to avoid intimacy with you (?) 

If I was your wife I would have found some of your replies to my questions very insulting and disrespectful. 

I feel you are expressing how stressed, frustrated and hurt you are.

Is Mr. Hillbilly still with us?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I'm well past frustrated angry etc etc. There's no point crying over spilled milk. We had our good years, she got I'll, that's it. 

Dealing with a BPD is like dealing with a four year old. There's no empathy, no control of emotions, no planning, no long term. Do I feel pity? Probably. At least I have done my part.

What frustrates me is the general attitude towards more serious mental illness. Everyone is therapy this and pill that for simple stuff but when the heavy duty hits it's so alien you might as well be trying to psychoanalyze Chewbaka.

My answers are not intended to hurt or offend. They are just a pretty accurate representation of what's going on in our house. I'm a pragmatist, not a verbal arsonist.

I'm sure my wife would have kittens if she read these answers. Alas, she knows what those answers are. Very well.


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## Baablacksheep (Aug 29, 2013)

Hillbilly has anyone suggested you and your wife doing the 5 Love Languages questionnaire ? I highly recommend it. My wife and I did it, and it has helped us understand each other sooooo much better !! I'm big on physical touch, she is highest on acts of service, our wise marriage counselor showed us we were both doing what WE considered acts of love to each other and wondering why he/she wasn't returning the love ?!? Well we were loving each other, but not understanding each other. I often think that God must have a laugh at how He made a man to need sex to feel emotionally connected, but made woman to need an emotional connection to want sex !!!!!


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## mr hillbilly (Jul 16, 2012)

Guys... I owe everyone a lot of responses but I'm tied up with the in-laws at the moment.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

In-laws are overrated unless good food and beer are involved 

Keep us posted!!!


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## mr hillbilly (Jul 16, 2012)

*Re: Re: My story*



john117 said:


> In-laws are overrated unless good food and beer are involved
> 
> Keep us posted!!!


Thankfully we've got all that and some great country fresh air. The kids are chasing fire flies and roasting marshmallows. Nothing but good memories.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

DTO said:


> It's easy to be happy when it's all about you. The real question is what do you do when it's not? That is a character question as much as anything. And it is really simple: answer (1) above is right, and answer (2) above is wrong.


If (1) is always the right answer, why aren't you also advising OP to keep giving to his wife? She does have sex with him after all, even if he isn't feeling it in terms of good quantity and quality.

It isn't always a sign of good character to keep giving and giving when you don't feel your needs are being met.


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## mr hillbilly (Jul 16, 2012)

*Re: Re: My story*



IndiaInk said:


> Think back to this blow-up:
> 
> _"She immediately blows up and goes on the defensive. Blaming me for once again pointing out how she's a bad wife and how I'm trying to make her feel bad. At this point she tries to rationalize how one rejection equates to a problem... Stating that we don't have problems and there are plenty of people with real problems. She also then goes on to blame me for ruining her day.. This was all done via email at 6am this morning. "_
> 
> ...


Frustration that she won't listen and try to rationally have a conversation with me.



> 2. Then, tell me what that instant emotion compels you to do in the moment. What things do you start saying/ doing---and what's your main goal in saying and doing them.


I try to explain myself better while staying calm to her rage. This is where she says I lecture her.



> 3. Then, after the blow-up passes, and you're alone by yourself can you tell me what, (if any) other emotions you feel about that blow-up? and the fact that it happened---other the MAIN one that she triggers during it.


Annoyed and regret that I let myself fall into my own trap.



> 4. Okay, this is the most important part of this 'exercise' (and thus, it's the part I'm worried you'll mess up--so please don't  ).
> 
> Below I've written her 'blow-up arguments' down. I've fleshed them out (but I think I've done this fairly).
> 
> ...





> *1. You just love to make me feel like I'm a bad wife don't you? You enjoy making me feel badly. You enjoy trying to hurt me. I don't understand why you like to do that to me!
> *


*

Disbelief...I didn't say you were a bad wife, those are your words. 




2. You take one tiny rejection and try to turn it into some massive problem in our marriage. I think you want to ruin our marriage. I never do this sort of thing to you. Because I don't want to ruin it. But for some reason you seem to.

Click to expand...

That's crazy. I love you.




3. Sex is not even a 'problem'. Good Lord, it's sex!! It's JUST sex. There are tons of people who get diagnosed with cancer, or who get paralyzed in an accident. You know what those are? Those are ACTUAL PROBLEMS.

Click to expand...

That's true but don't marginalize our problems by comparing to others.




4. Well thanks. Thank-you so much. Thank-you SO MUCH for absolutely ruining my day. Wow, I have a husband who LOVES to ruin my day. That's great to know.

Click to expand...

I'm sorry that's not what I was trying to do.*


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

always_alone said:


> If (1) is always the right answer, why aren't you also advising OP to keep giving to his wife? She does have sex with him after all, even if he isn't feeling it in terms of good quantity and quality.
> 
> It isn't always a sign of good character to keep giving and giving when you don't feel your needs are being met.


Well, your caveat at the end of the first paragraph says it all. She isn't giving him what he needs. She is doing what she feels should be good enough for him.

Let's be clear. Right now this is 100% his wife's fault, because she won't even engage in a conversation about the bad sex. She wants to have her cake and eat it too, by having the attentive husband whom she hopes will stop pestering her for sex. By her own admission, she doesn't see a relationship problem aside from his complaints (unless you think she's lying about that).

If she won't engage in a conversation, there is nothing he can do to improve their sex life. If he can't do anything about it, that means she holds all the cards and she is the one keeping them in this state of poor sex all by herself. Sure he can take random shots in the dark and hope he hits the lottery. Or, he can detach and focus elsewhere, but that doesn't solve the problem either.

And, your second paragraph makes no sense. I never said that generosity is always a sign of good character. I said that good character will manifest itself as generosity (the converse of what you said) under a defined set of circumstances (when your relationship partner is doing what you request).


----------



## mr hillbilly (Jul 16, 2012)

*Re: Re: My story*



Baablacksheep said:


> Hillbilly has anyone suggested you and your wife doing the 5 Love Languages questionnaire ? I highly recommend it. My wife and I did it, and it has helped us understand each other sooooo much better !! I'm big on physical touch, she is highest on acts of service, our wise marriage counselor showed us we were both doing what WE considered acts of love to each other and wondering why he/she wasn't returning the love ?!? Well we were loving each other, but not understanding each other. I often think that God must have a laugh at how He made a man to need sex to feel emotionally connected, but made woman to need an emotional connection to want sex !!!!!


We own the hard cover and kindle versions and yet she hasn't made it past the 2nd chapter... I've read it twice.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You didn't miss much. 5LL has to have been the most useless book I have read in the last few years.

Biggest case of the duh's in a while...


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

mr hillbilly said:


> Frustration that she won't listen and try to rationally have a conversation with me.


Mr. Hillbilly, 

I really sense your frustration. It is maddening when your life partner is not even trying to work on this - when she (in her own words) is happy with what you provide for her and just wishes you would shut up and be happy with her being happy.

I think you don't get that "rational conversation" is an oxymoron here. Her frustration level is very high - so high you can safely assume if she had any real interest in improving your sex life she would have done it by now. But that hasn't happened yet.

That conversation is a loser for her. Any honest account will be a version of "meeting your needs is asking a lot. I don't think it's worth it and don't see my feeling changing." Since she is otherwise happy in the marriage, why would she shoot herself in the foot? The only way she would admit this is if she were willing to put her wants and needs aside (and if that were the case you wouldn't have this problem), or if you backed her into a corner by keeping up the pressure over and extended period of time.

What would you do if she did admit that? Would you just give up on the sex and continue to be the same doting husband as when you thought you had a shot, indefinitely? I'd say that's unlikely. Sooner or later, the effort you make for her would wane and the marriage may even end. She knows this.

Ironically, the outcome she is avoiding is what you must do in order to have a shot at this. If you drop this, the odds the sex will improve spontaneously are low. She likely will not change, thinking she can keep putting you off when you bring it up. Assuming the sex is that important, you need to drive her to the decision point where she will (1) decide to change herself so she can meet your need, or (2) leave.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

john117 said:


> You didn't miss much. 5LL has to have been the most useless book I have read in the last few years.
> 
> Biggest case of the duh's in a while...


I tend to agree. While I think it can be an eye-opener in certain cases, I think the more common issue is "I know what he (or she) wants, but I just can't get to the point where doing that is acceptable". From what I've heard, 5LL doesn't address that.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Even worse. It's just stating the obvious in most cases... do you need a checklist to tell you what your partner wants? If you do you don't deserve any.


----------



## mr hillbilly (Jul 16, 2012)

*Re: Re: My story*



DTO said:


> Mr. Hillbilly,
> 
> I really sense your frustration. It is maddening when your life partner is not even trying to work on this - when she (in her own words) is happy with what you provide for her and just wishes you would shut up and be happy with her being happy.


And the other frustrating issue is how I'm always portrayed as being the selfish one because my timing is wrong or it's always about me, etc. I have tried to get her to see that she's the selfish one but that goes over like a lead balloon.



DTO said:


> you need to drive her to the decision point where she will (1) decide to change herself so she can meet your need, or (2) leave.


I agree and herein lies the problem. I don't drive her to this decision but I know my current methods are failing.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Generally people change only when they stand to win or lose. So your wife will change only if she benefits from it it she loses out. If she thinks she's not losing out even in the worst case scenario (divorce and child support) then there's not much you can do to change her.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

DTO said:


> Well, your caveat at the end of the first paragraph says it all. She isn't giving him what he needs. She is doing what she feels should be good enough for him.
> 
> Let's be clear. Right now this is 100% his wife's fault, because she won't even engage in a conversation about the bad sex. She wants to have her cake and eat it too, by having the attentive husband whom she hopes will stop pestering her for sex. By her own admission, she doesn't see a relationship problem aside from his complaints (unless you think she's lying about that).


And this is why, I think, the sexlessness issue is so intractable. It is always framed as 100% the fault of the the person who "withholds", and who doesn't see the problem. Any attempt to understand that perspective is summarily dismissed because that person clearly has bad character, is selfish or evil, isn't willing to try --or whatever other accusation is hurled at them.

And as I said, sometimes it really is that one-sided. But I think nowhere near as often as we the hard up would like to think.

In my example, my SO literally does not see any problem at all, and he gets very very unhappy when I bring it up because it makes him feel bad about himself, and like he doesn't measure up. Any efforts to say that there is a problem is a judgment on him.

Now I can sit here and freak out about how unreasonable, selfish, uncaring he is for not seeing it my way, and accuse him of being 100% at fault. And I can seek sympathetic support that will reinforce my rightness and all that he owes me, and how he's controlling my sex life.

Or I can own up that he has a different perspective than me, and it's *my* expectations that I am trying to hold him to, and *my* feelings that I am trying to convey, and *my* needs that I am focusing on -- and that *my* actions and approaches on this may very well be counterproductive, and yes, even undermining the very good things about our relationship. Because he too has expectations, feelings, and needs that are equally legitimate.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

john117 said:


> Generally people change only when they stand to win or lose. So your wife will change only if she benefits from it it she loses out. If she thinks she's not losing out even in the worst case scenario (divorce and child support) then there's not much you can do to change her.


Doesn't have to be about winning or losing. People only change when they want to or have to. 

You certainly can't make them, and efforts to try will most likely result in them digging in their heels even more.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You can make them change if you make it pleasant enough (carrot) or uncomfortable enough (stick). Generally stick works better than carrot


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## mr hillbilly (Jul 16, 2012)

*Re: Re: My story*



always_alone said:


> Or I can own up that he has a different perspective than me, and it's *my* expectations that I am trying to hold him to, and *my* feelings that I am trying to convey, and *my* needs that I am focusing on -- and that *my* actions and approaches on this may very well be counterproductive, and yes, even undermining the very good things about our relationship. Because he too has expectations, feelings, and needs that are equally legitimate.


Advocating for the high road sounds good but some days I just wish it wasn't always about her. And I realize she is saying the exact same damn thing. 

That's why I firmly believe in compromise and yet I'm the only one doing the compromise.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Compromise allows her to continue to do what she's doing i.e. nothing. You can't apply rational explanation and compromise methods to someone who will not or cannot see your point of view.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

mr hillbilly said:


> Advocating for the high road sounds good but some days I just wish it wasn't always about her. And I realize she is saying the exact same damn thing.
> 
> That's why I firmly believe in compromise and yet I'm the only one doing the compromise.


Thank you! You beat me to it.

Yes, the LD's wants / needs / perspective are equally important.. But when the LD person refuses to compromise or even discuss the issue, they are essentially expressing that their wants are the ONLY ones that matter:

"This is all I want to do - the rest is your problem"

This is that "gate-keeper mentality" we look down upon at TAM.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

DTO said:


> "This is all I want to do - the rest is your problem"
> 
> This is that "gate-keeper mentality" we look down upon at TAM.


Yes, absolutely, this is the received wisdom. That is, that the LD is *the* problem, and the one who is refusing to compromise. But just like my SO, OP's wife may not see it that way.

Maybe she does compromise, but OP refuses to see it as such because it still isn't enough.

Of course, it is his right to dig in his heels too, as he has just as much right to have his needs met as she does hers. All I'm saying is that the received wisdom on TAM of how to deal with this issue meets with mixed results, and may even be completely counter productive if the reason she is so intractable is that she genuinely feels that her needs aren't being met.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

mr hillbilly said:


> That's why I firmly believe in compromise and yet I'm the only one doing the compromise.


And what would you like her to compromise? What would be the ideal, and what would you be happy enough about that you would stop wanting her to change?

And have you asked her for this directly?


----------



## mr hillbilly (Jul 16, 2012)

*Re: Re: My story*



always_alone said:


> And what would you like her to compromise? What would be the ideal, and what would you be happy enough about that you would stop wanting her to change?
> 
> And have you asked her for this directly?


I haven't asked lately but in my opinion a compromise is meeting in the middle. So anything more than the status quo.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

jb02157 said:


> You have nothing to complain about here. I wouldn't be here if I was getting sex 5x/month. I don't know what that would be like. I actually find your post a little insulting.



A lot of people are missing Hillbilly's point here. It's not just the 5x a month sex. It's vanilla sex only, and his wife won't even take her shirt off!! OMG.  If that was my wife, I would tear that shirt off of her during sex!

Which leads me to the other issue that no one here is addressing: *Her body image*. Hillbilly, chances are this is happening because your wife simply is not confident about her shape or appearance anymore. Has she gained weight since she quit her job? Has she changed physically in any other way? I am 90% certain therein lies the solution to your problem. 

Have you taken a look at this thread? It could very well describe your situation, about a husband turning sex life around by addressing his wife's body image concerns. It worked for him, it might work for you.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Not necessarily in the middle. If I offer $20k to the Paducah BMW Caterpillar Kubota dealer for a new X3 he won't accept because the X3 costs $40k. I could ask him to move to the middle or $30k. No dice.

Sex is no different. If you're in the 'quarterly plan' as Fred observed the middle is every 6 weeks :rofl:..

Fred escaped the quarterly plan by having a textbook PA with a mom from his kids' school. If I could ever get him to post his story on TAM...


----------



## mr hillbilly (Jul 16, 2012)

*Re: Re: My story*



Theseus said:


> A lot of people are missing Hillbilly's point here. It's not just the 5x a month sex. It's vanilla sex only, and his wife won't even take her shirt off!! OMG.  If that was my wife, I would tear that shirt off of her during sex!
> 
> Which leads me to the other issue that no one here is addressing: *Her body image*. Hillbilly, chances are this is happening because your wife simply is not confident about her shape or appearance anymore. Has she gained weight since she quit her job? Has she changed physically in any other way? I am 90% certain therein lies the solution to your problem.
> 
> Have you taken a look at this thread? It could very well describe your situation, about a husband turning sex life around by addressing his wife's body image concerns. It worked for him, it might work for you.


I'll take a look because body image is most definitely an issue. But the weight was there before she quit her job. Actually losing weight was one of her reasons to quit her job. She admitted that her job had forced her to neglect her health, our marriage and our children. About the only thing that has seen attention have been the kids. 

And for the skeptics... Every sex encounter is always a quickie and she just lifts her shirt.  every once in a while we do change position but the shirt stays on...


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## SoVeryLost (May 14, 2012)

I'm 32 years old and I've never once been fully naked during sex. Not once in my adult life has another person seen me fully naked. If your wife is refusing to be naked with you, I guarantee she's not comfortable with other aspects of sex. I can't find myself fully in the moment during sex mentally because I'm so worried about what my partner might be seeing if a piece of my clothing gets tugged up in the throes of sex. I'm also always monitoring where his hands land and I worry if he is disgusted by what he feels. If he puts his hands somewhere I'm self conscious about, I quickly push his hands away. Makes it difficult to enjoy. This could be a significant factor that's contributing to the issue. And would also explain why she gets defensive when you bring up the lack of sex in your marriage to her. It's already uncomfortable for her due to her body image, so asking for more I'm certain may be making her anxious and stressed out. I can empathize with her on this point.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

SoVeryLost said:


> I'm 32 years old and I've never once been fully naked during sex. Not once in my adult life has another person seen me fully naked. ... I'm also always monitoring where his hands land and I worry if he is disgusted by what he feels. If he puts his hands somewhere I'm self conscious about, I quickly push his hands away. Makes it difficult to enjoy.


Not just difficult to enjoy, but virtually impossible to enjoy! This is so sad I hardly even know what to say. I could never tolerate a partner like that. SVL, I REALLY hope you get help with this issue. Your own insecurities are killing your sex life, and I assume, your relationships as well.


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## SoVeryLost (May 14, 2012)

Theseus said:


> Not just difficult to enjoy, but virtually impossible to enjoy! This is so sad I hardly even know what to say. I could never tolerate a partner like that. SVL, I REALLY hope you get help with this issue. Your own insecurities are killing your sex life, and I assume, your relationships as well.


That's why I don't have either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Theseus said:


> Not just difficult to enjoy, but virtually impossible to enjoy! This is so sad I hardly even know what to say. I could never tolerate a partner like that. SVL, I REALLY hope you get help with this issue. Your own insecurities are killing your sex life, and I assume, your relationships as well.


It's a bit of a catch-22, sadly. Such insecurities are often met with hostility and/or rejection, which mostly serves to reinforce the insecurity.

And the safe place to practice letting go of them is very hard to come by.

SVL, I too hope you find a way to squash these insecurities.


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## mr hillbilly (Jul 16, 2012)

Not much to report here.... My wife and I haven't really spoken to each other in quite some time due to our travel. She accused me of being grumpy earlier and I guess I've been grumpy... I wonder why....

I avoided conversation and drove home in mostly silence. The tension eventually subsided with time and things are okay. She's happy with me because I unexpectedly cut the grass... Which is a job she's assumed lately. 

We had a nice family dinner tonight and tomorrow is our anniversary. I've planned nothing; mostly because we discussed celebrating next weekend. She also has a school dinner meeting tomorrow and she's still dealing with her monthly friend (it's not monthly...23 days  , but whatever it's all relative). So I don't expect any intimacy this week. 

I thought about sharing that YouTube video from neuklas thread but don't know the best way to share. Any attempt to discuss "sex" in the past has been met with rage.


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

mr hillbilly said:


> Some more context... Married for 14 years next week. 2 kids both elementary school age. We (I) have struggled with our sex life for years. We average about 5x month... Always 100% vanilla. She never takes her shirt off, won't dress up or want anything but a quickie. She orgasms almost every time and I know because she tells me if I missed or it isn't happening.
> 
> 
> My wife currently stays home but she worked in a demanding professional career up until last fall; after 15 years.
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

5x / month - I'm jealous that means you are at about 25 this year - I just hit 4! I want to say stop whinging but I get it, it's the reluctance and the feeling of just her succumbing not even taking her shirt off. I think I've only seen my wife makes a handful of times a year - it sucks to feel like a dog begging :/
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

john117 said:


> Expectation is an emotion, and déjà vu is just that. Then we could get into discussions of emotional memory formation and retrieval and I'll never get the yard mowed
> 
> What do I feel? Sad / pity that someone 54 years old, phd, successful professional does not see the obvious because their brain is so messed up and she refuses to acknowledge it. Despite seeing her own mother go down the exact path.
> 
> ...


Greetings from Ecuador John. Thank- you for your response.
Not only will responding allow me to put off studying Spanish some more...seriously *Thank-you* for answering the questions earnestly.

Honestly, the usual thing I have to offer is 'analyzing' situations.

I think this is the best I've got for you based upon your honesty here:

I hope you're deeply honest with yourself about "all of this kinda stuff".

This "heart stuff". 

We enter into romantic relationships because we want to express this "heart stuff" within us and feel ourselves at the receiving end of such sentiments from another.

I'm not presuming that's a relevatory statement to you. 

But, based upon the 'lab-coat', excel-using 'board persona' you offer TAM, I just hope you offer yourself something more honest.

I'm not going to tell you to try and make this work with your wife.

I agree. I don't think you can. 

So my 'best advice' to you is: Get out of your marriage as soon as you *can*

And *CAN* is the most frightening part of this advice because I so, so, want to give you the BEST ADVICE and I knew if you would just follow it in the spirit in which I offer it----your 'Can' would be genuine.

You would be honest about when the 'financial' consideration is no longer a legitimate hold on you.

You would know that *whatever we do because of our fear isn't genuinely done * so even though *you will most definitely feel some fear*, you'd get out anyway.

And most of all, you would own that your time here is finite and as 'in love' is probably the most worthwhile way to spend your limited time---it's pure idiocy not to seek out the love you want.


Just Be Brave!!!

Our lives are a tragedy if we can never find the courage to do this.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

IndiaInk said:


> We enter into romantic relationships because we want to express this "heart stuff" within us and feel ourselves at the receiving end of such sentiments from another.


I enter into a romantic relationship to give far more than to take. That's not me being a Nice Guy, just a nice guy. I have so much to share. Money, wits, opportunities, fun, Europe, my beloved Mini S... It would be stupid to take all that to the grave all for myself. I'm not Scrooge McDuck here.



> But, based upon the 'lab-coat', excel-using 'board persona' you offer TAM, I just hope you offer yourself something more honest.


I'm pretty honest with myself. Being analytical does it every time.



> I'm not going to tell you to try and make this work with your wife.
> 
> I agree. I don't think you can.
> 
> So my 'best advice' to you is: Get out of your marriage as soon as you *can*


That's the plan. And it isn't because of intimacy. As I said, I could be having sex 10x a week and the red flags won't be any less red. 

We're dealing with someone that has no empathy. Such people are rare. I picked one unfortunately. 



> You would be honest about when the 'financial' consideration is no longer a legitimate hold on you.


Numbers don't lie. 2 years, 3 tops. After that we have bigger issues to worry about. True sh!t test time. 



> You would know that *whatever we do because of our fear isn't genuinely done * so even though *you will most definitely feel some fear*, you'd get out anyway.


Fear? meh. Fear is taking my brand new Specialized bicycle on the trails today, 3 days in a row and white-knuckling my mass down a mild slope hoping I won't go flying. Meanwhile 10 year olds zip down while chatting like they're doing the Tour De France. That's fear. Not to mention the trash can sized helmet and Spandex outfit (*) :rofl:



> And most of all, you would own that your time here is finite and as 'in love' is probably the most worthwhile way to spend your limited time---it's pure idiocy not to seek out the love you want.


I don't care for love at this point. Not unless my secret crushes on TAM suddenly become available and move to Paducah. I care for fun, peace, and a steady supply of dessert wine from strange places I can't even pronounce. If that involves some lucky divorcee or widow who's willing to forego Tampa for Grenoble, I'm game. 



> Just Be Brave!!!
> 
> Our lives are a tragedy if we can never find the courage to do this.


Brave is walking out of a Greyhound bus with two suitcases and $500 at age 22, 6000 miles from home. I think I qualify :lol:

(*) no Spandex so far.


----------



## over20 (Nov 15, 2013)

Theseus said:


> A lot of people are missing Hillbilly's point here. It's not just the 5x a month sex. It's vanilla sex only, and his wife won't even take her shirt off!! OMG.  If that was my wife, I would tear that shirt off of her during sex!
> 
> Which leads me to the other issue that no one here is addressing: *Her body image*. Hillbilly, chances are this is happening because your wife simply is not confident about her shape or appearance anymore. Has she gained weight since she quit her job? Has she changed physically in any other way? I am 90% certain therein lies the solution to your problem.
> 
> Have you taken a look at this thread? It could very well describe your situation, about a husband turning sex life around by addressing his wife's body image concerns. It worked for him, it might work for you.


I agree with you and disagree with you. A husband can be very kind and supportive of changes in his wifes body, but SHE has to take responsibility too. She has to either change what she doesn't like or accept and love her new body, but nevertheless, she shouldn't withdrawl sexually from her husband. That's not fair.


----------



## mr hillbilly (Jul 16, 2012)

*Re: Re: My story*



over20 said:


> I agree with you and disagree with you. A husband can be very kind and supportive of changes in his wifes body, but SHE has to take responsibility too. She has to either change what she doesn't like or accept and love her new body, but nevertheless, she shouldn't withdrawl sexually from her husband. That's not fair.


That's a fantastic point


----------



## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

mr hillbilly said:


> Frustration that she won't listen and try to rationally have a conversation with me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well...damn. I'm really not as savvy on this forum as Id like to be. 

And all ive got access to is my ipad which is particurarly onerous BUT if I knew a way to have quoted you whilst preserving what you had been responding to (various points from my post) that would've been ideal. Oh well.

Some points:

You say you feel frustration at her blow-ups. And I don't doubt that, but I was hoping you'd say "fear". Because I think you (and many other men) have a big problem with the fact that your wife's blow-ups 'scare you' and thus you instantly go into an 'I'll to anything to quell the dreadful eruption from that Frustrating Volcano loathed by sooo many husbands called *My Wife is Yelling at Me*

Stop loathing it. Stop caring about it. For all its smoke there is no lava.

Smile at her, say sorry 'if you can't speak to me civilly you CAN'T speak to me' and turn around and walk away.

Oh, and for the love of God explore this:

*Annoyed and regret that I let myself fall into my own trap.*

Please tell me you are not annoyed and regretful because you knew you would only 'set off' the Volcano again---and you so hate its 'blow-up'

Nooo!!! Anything but that. 

Pretty please tell me that you're annoyed and frustrated by your own passive-aggressive cowardice.

I said this in Neuklas's thread. I'll say it in yours.

Who are you Mr.Hillbilly?

What in the hell does Mr. Hillbilly want out of his marriage?

I think Mr. Hillbilly wants a *loving, mutually-enjoyed sexual* relationship with his wife.

I don't think Mr. Hillbilly wants his wife to find *this fact* a PROBLEM at all.

I don't think Mr. Hillbilly wants his wife to question his love for her because of *this fact*.

I don't think Mr. Hillbilly wants his wife's day to be ruined by *this* *fact.
*

But what I think means Nothing.

And what you think means Nothing.

It's all about what you DO.

Accept yourself. Accept what you want out of your marriage. Declare it to your wife. Walk out the door if it's NOT what she wants out if her marriage. Don't force her to do anything she doesn't want to do happily and willingly. Same goes for you.

Oh yeah...and just so you know....I still gave you the VERY BEST advice you could've asked for on the first page of your thread.

I'll be so, so beyond happy if you actually someday take it.

(Because, just being perfectly honest with you---I don't think you ever will---and that makes me very sad...it truly does)

Please surprise me.

And yourself!!!

You're a lot stronger than you think you are. 

I know it!!


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## over20 (Nov 15, 2013)

SoVeryLost said:


> I'm 32 years old and I've never once been fully naked during sex. Not once in my adult life has another person seen me fully naked. If your wife is refusing to be naked with you, I guarantee she's not comfortable with other aspects of sex. I can't find myself fully in the moment during sex mentally because I'm so worried about what my partner might be seeing if a piece of my clothing gets tugged up in the throes of sex. I'm also always monitoring where his hands land and I worry if he is disgusted by what he feels. If he puts his hands somewhere I'm self conscious about, I quickly push his hands away. Makes it difficult to enjoy. This could be a significant factor that's contributing to the issue. And would also explain why she gets defensive when you bring up the lack of sex in your marriage to her. It's already uncomfortable for her due to her body image, so asking for more I'm certain may be making her anxious and stressed out. I can empathize with her on this point.


I am so sad to hear of this. I and many men have seen your sexy legs you have posted in the legs thread you seem very pretty!!


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## SoVeryLost (May 14, 2012)

over20 said:


> I am so sad to hear of this. I and many men have seen your sexy legs you have posted in the legs thread you seem very pretty!!


Thanks. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

SoVeryLost said:


> That's why I don't have either.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




SVL,

Would you consider yourself a highly self-conscious and/or anxious person in general?---or just as it concerns your body

Also, can you trace this body consciousness back to some particular aspect of your past (eg overly critically parent, teasing at school etc)


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## SoVeryLost (May 14, 2012)

IndiaInk said:


> SVL,
> 
> Would you consider yourself a highly self-conscious and/or anxious person in general?---or just as it concerns your body
> 
> Also, can you trace this body consciousness back to some particular aspect of your past (eg overly critically parent, teasing at school etc)


I don't want to commit a thread jacking here, but cliff's notes: I was overweight my whole life. Three years ago I weighed 303 lbs. I stand 5'7". I had a health scare that woke me up three years ago. Busted my butt at the gym, ate healthy, and now weigh 135 lbs. I'm complimented on my appearance often by both genders, I'm very successful in my career, I'm financially secure, I consider myself to be a good mother; my life is where I want it to be for the most part. But being obese and subsequently ridiculed my entire life, coupled with being with my ex-husband for 10 years who was very cruel to me in regards to my appearance has taken it's toll. I don't know how to trust someone enough to let them see me out of fear of rejection and humiliation. I have a dismissive-avoidant attachment disorder to boot. I recognize these issues but I don't see a way out of them. I hope for the wife of OP that she does not suffer from a similar view of herself. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mr hillbilly (Jul 16, 2012)

*Re: Re: My story*



SoVeryLost said:


> I don't want to commit a thread jacking here, but cliff's notes: I was overweight my whole life. Three years ago I weighed 303 lbs. I stand 5'7". I had a health scare that woke me up three years ago. Busted my butt at the gym, ate healthy, and now weigh 135 lbs. I'm complimented on my appearance often by both genders, I'm very successful in my career, I'm financially secure, I consider myself to be a good mother; my life is where I want it to be for the most part. But being obese and subsequently ridiculed my entire life, coupled with being with my ex-husband for 10 years who was very cruel to me in regards to my appearance has taken it's toll. I don't know how to trust someone enough to let them see me out of fear of rejection and humiliation. I have a dismissive-avoidant attachment disorder to boot. I recognize these issues but I don't see a way out of them. I hope for the wife of OP that she does not suffer from a similar view of herself. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wish you the best but feel confident that is not the issue here. Low self esteem due to being slightly over weight is about the extent of it....but as was mentioned earlier this is definitely a big factor in our sexual relations.


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## SoVeryLost (May 14, 2012)

mr hillbilly said:


> I wish you the best but feel confident that is not the issue here. Low self esteem due to being slightly over weight is about the extent of it....but as was mentioned earlier this is definitely a big factor in our sexual relations.


I agree it's a factor, but there seem to be other issues at play in your situation at the core of all this. Her reactions to you remind me a great deal of how I would react verbally to my ex though. Lots of resentment.


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## SoVeryLost (May 14, 2012)

Have you considered she may be having an affair? Possibly an EA online?


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## mr hillbilly (Jul 16, 2012)

*Re: Re: My story*



SoVeryLost said:


> Have you considered she may be having an affair? Possibly an EA online?


100% sure there is nothing....and I know statements like that raise more eyebrows than any other. We have access to each other's email and Facebook accounts and cell phones. No secrecy or reason to think so.


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