# Spectators in CWI



## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

It seems that this forum has lately attracted a bigger than usual number of what I call "spectators": people who haven't been exposed to infidelity, yet hang out and offer (in their opinion good) advice on the subject.

Now, I understand this is a public forum, we are all free people, everyone has a right for their own perspective, etc. But some of the posters come off as rather judgmental (of both WSs and BSs) with naivete obvious to anyone who ever was affected by infidelity. I must admit it rubs me the wrong way.

So I want to use this opportunity to ask them a favor. Please use a little bit of introspection before posting and consider why are you here at all. I hope it's not a kind of free entertainment or a sport for you, please realize people end up here because of severe problems in their personal life. Don't toss in your two cents randomly, spare us with passages from your P.C. 101 class, please realize that actual infidelity situations do not match your simplistic mental models of them.

Thanks.


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## Numb-badger (May 18, 2011)

Ain't that the truth.
It's nothing like the novels or soap operas would have you believe.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Ya, it sucks, that these kind of folks are around, but it is what it is and I will be here to seperate the reality of infidelity and the unicorns and rainbows idioligy. 

Sure in a perfect world I could simply go up and talk to my adultorus wife and she would tell me the truth and I would never have to spy on her b/c I was a perfect husband that diserved her honesty LOL LOL LOL.

Do poeple know how to deal with a spouse that is addictive to drugs and sleeps with convicts while there spouse for 25 yrs.. stays home and watches there seven kids, Do these folks understand the investment in the marriage, when they them selves have a only been married for 2 yrs and no kids and have never had a cig much less a joint?


I hear you snap and as long as there is poeple like that then there are poeple like us to put a check and balance to it all. Alls we can hope for is that at the end of the day its not just the-guy and snap participating but other stay in this community to help the newbies.

So my rant isn't so much about naive participant, put to others going through this infidelity crap and as they jounery through, they also add the valuable perspectives on what worked and what didn't, just as much as they come here for advice.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I liken it to those who are childless telling those with kids how to raise them.


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## Regina007 (Feb 24, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> I liken it to those who are childless telling those with kids how to raise them.


That's just throwing mudballs around. Some people have raised children that aren't theirs as fosters. I raised my nephews up to 5 y/o when they moved and I still have no kids with my husband. A blessing and a curse and my older sister loves throwing that in my face when I suggest some things that have worked for me with her boys and she goes, "You don't have children - you have no rights to tell me what to do with them!" while she goes out on joyrides.

(And that quote is a trigger for me too as a dx'd infertile.)


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

Regina, I think Hope meant people genuinely clueless in raising children. You obviously isn't one of them.


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## borninapril (Jun 6, 2011)

But it goes both ways. I've seen a lot of people post on here telling other asking for advice of help to just leave or divorce when it's not always that simple.


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## Regina007 (Feb 24, 2012)

snap said:


> Regina, I think Hope meant people genuinely clueless in raising children. You obviously isn't one of them.


I understood where she was coming from but it is still throwing mud balls around - I also said this quote was a trigger.

To your post - I absolutely agreed. I couldn't believe how many people were trolling some threads.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Sorry you triggered. There are posts all over the place here that trigger me too.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

borninapril said:


> But it goes both ways. I've seen a lot of people post on here telling other asking for advice of help to just leave or divorce when it's not always that simple.


A lot of that advice is coming from exact the same people am talking about.

The regulars rarely advise BS to leave (as you lose much of legal leverage). With divorce, it's often suggested to *file*, as a matter of confronting the cheater with hard consequences. The intention is not necessarily to break off relationship, but more of a last resort, "you come or you stay" message.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

borninapril said:


> But it goes both ways. I've seen a lot of people post on here telling other asking for advice of help to just leave or divorce when it's not always that simple.


This is usually done when dealing with an unfaithful spouse who either refuses to end the affair or ends it but not really committed to R. A tough love approach is needed in these cases.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Even the newbies get this misconception when divorce is mentioned. I think it needs to be stated often that filing is not the same a finalizing. But an action of consequence if the A continues.


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## stedfin (Apr 14, 2012)

I think it's rather shallowminded and short sighted to suggest that those who "have been exposed" to infidelity are in a better place to assist others in that situation.

I see lots of posts in the CWI section by people going through it themselves while trying to help others, and I think they're in the worst place to do that because they're so muddled, confused and on the edge that they can't even fix their own problems let alone someone elses.

Most posts are in the area of strategies to catch the cheater, and confront the cheater, and expose the cheater and their partner, in a desperate attempt to end the affair, so you can drive them back into your arms. That avoids the real problem, which is an irreparably broken marriage, it rarely works and truth be told the only posters who are fully capable of dispensing that sort of advise are those who have been through infidelity, took those strategic steps to end the affair, and "won" back their cheating spouse, and the marriage survived for long enough to say that it really did get fixed.

I think I've seen only one or two posters who relate stories like that. Everyone else is unqualified regardless of their exposure to infidelity.

My opinion is that the vast majority of the time, once there is cheating that it's better to just move on and no I don't speak from personal experience with infidelity but I did leave a bad marriage and start my life over again, and yes I gave this post some introspection before writing it.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

stedfin said:


> My opinion is that the vast majority of the time, once there is cheating that it's better to just move on and no I don't speak from personal experience with infidelity but I did leave a bad marriage and start my life over again, and yes I gave this post some introspection before writing it.


While you are most certainly entitled to your opinion this above kind of makes the OP's point. Just like you don't what you'll do in a bad marriage until you are in one, you don't know how you'll respond to infidelity until it hits you.


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## Numb-badger (May 18, 2011)

The text book is the first thing out of the window


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

morituri said:


> This is usually done when dealing with an unfaithful spouse who either refuses to end the affair or ends it but not really committed to R. A tough love approach is needed in these cases.


And then there are the truly sad situations where a spouse has been cheated on, openly for years. They keep thinking that it if they just keep doing the same thing over and over by staying and letting the cheater come home to sleep and get more money, that one day they cheater will completely reverse their personality.

In these cases I really wish there was a grow a spine pill you could recommend. It troubles me to think about the anguish and suffering these people are letting their cheating SO put them through, and how they don't realize it - but they hold the key to their own freedom from the abuse.


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## oaksthorne (Mar 4, 2011)

stedfin said:


> I think it's rather shallowminded and short sighted to suggest that those who "have been exposed" to infidelity are in a better place to assist others in that situation.
> 
> I see lots of posts in the CWI section by people going through it themselves while trying to help others, and I think they're in the worst place to do that because they're so muddled, confused and on the edge that they can't even fix their own problems let alone someone elses.
> 
> ...


 If you have been through it, you know what it is like, if you have not, it is all theory. It is not as simple as "it's better just to move on"; sometimes it isn't better, and using the experienced of others, helps you to decide when it is. As far as being "muddled" no I never was that. I was actually hyper vigilant, but I did think that what had happened meant something it didn't, and I needed the advice of others who had been through it to help me understand what it actually did mean, and what was best to do about it. They were able to do that because they 'ed actually seen the results in their own situations. There is no experience in life that is anything like infidelity, and my advice to another person before I experienced it ,would have been very different from what I would now advise.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I think a big part of what CWI helps with is:

1. You aren't the only one going through this.
2. There are actual things you can do - you aren't a hopeless victim
3. Seeing the forest and stepping back from worrying about all those trees.


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## NotLikeYou (Aug 30, 2011)

snap said:


> It seems that this forum has lately attracted a bigger than usual number of what I call "spectators": people who haven't been exposed to infidelity, yet hang out and offer (in their opinion good) advice on the subject.
> 
> Now, I understand this is a public forum, we are all free people, everyone has a right for their own perspective, etc. But some of the posters come off as rather judgmental (of both WSs and BSs) with naivete obvious to anyone who ever was affected by infidelity. I must admit it rubs me the wrong way.
> 
> ...


Snap, there are two erroneous assumptions in your post.

1) When "OhGodWhyDidThisHappenToMe" starts his thread titled "Wife cheated on me with 3 different basketball teams over the last decade, but I want to save my marriage," the truth of the matter is that (assuming he's not a troll, which is a bad assumption on its own) he's not really looking for advice. And he's not going to take any advice given to him. He's just venting, looking for sympathy, or so disconnected from reality that he thinks posting intimate details of his life to strangers on the internet will magically make his life better.

So in cases like this, it truly doesn't matter what advice is given, because advice is not going to be taken. Hence whether or not one has endured infidelity is irrelevant.

2) You go on to suggest that posting replies is a good deed if the advice is heartfelt and you are "credentialed," i.e. you have endured infidelity and are therefore qualified to opine on said subject.

Every single thing you write on TAM is for YOU. If you are creating a thread, you are doing it for any number of reasons, all of which primarily relate to you.

If you are replying in a thread, it would actually be more correct to start each post with "well, if I were in your shoes, I would........" If the OP happens to read what you have written and reply with "gee, that's a good idea," or some variation thereon, that's really just icing on the cake.

I don't actually have a strong opinion on your post. I certainly agree that there are some posters on here who come across as annoying, naive, shallow, and oftentimes bitter and sarcastic. 

Yeah, okay, those last two qualities are self identified, and, uh.

Oh, look- a rainbow!


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

borninapril said:


> But it goes both ways. I've seen a lot of people post on here telling other asking for advice of help to just leave or divorce when it's not always that simple.


You're right,it's not always that simple.As someone who divorced and walked away it's only recently I've begun to question my rigid thinking on the subject.If you asked me a couple of years ago if infidelity merited only divorce as a solution,I would have said yes.Now,thanks in large part to honest from the heart and head posters on this forum I find myself with less of a tunnel vision and more accepting that my solution isn't always the best solution.So,I continue to grow,hopefully anyway.


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## working_together (Oct 16, 2011)

I just assumed that everyone here has been touched by infidelity in some form or another. Wow.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

NotLikeYou said:


> Snap, there are two erroneous assumptions in your post.
> 
> 1) When "OhGodWhyDidThisHappenToMe" starts his thread titled "Wife cheated on me with 3 different basketball teams over the last decade, but I want to save my marriage," the truth of the matter is that (assuming he's not a troll, which is a bad assumption on its own) he's not really looking for advice. And he's not going to take any advice given to him. He's just venting, looking for sympathy, or so disconnected from reality that he thinks posting intimate details of his life to strangers on the internet will magically make his life better.


There are certainly cases like that. But then, most of the cases aren't. It's just people in bad spot of their life looking for solution, assuming all advice given here falls on deaf ears is wrong.

I certainly used the advice given to me here.



> 2) You go on to suggest that posting replies is a good deed if the advice is heartfelt and you are "credentialed," i.e. you have endured infidelity and are therefore qualified to opine on said subject.


Notice how I didn't anywhere said that. Also notice how I specifically related it to the posters with attitude yet no experience.

There's no problem with obviously inexperienced people per se, but attitude matters. When some dude who barely started dating effectively says "dump that ho, you dummy" to a middle-aged, combat veteran, father of 3, who's been married for longer than the poster existed, I can only roll my anonymous eyes.

The naivete is an issue on its own. We can pretend that everyone's opinion is equal, but this is not true. Fact is, my idea of dealing with infidelity before it occurred to me was very different from how it actually unfolded. This is the case with many other posters here, too.



> Every single thing you write on TAM is for YOU. If you are creating a thread, you are doing it for any number of reasons, all of which primarily relate to you.


You can argue it for anything you do, really. What's your point?

I don't care what motivated people helping me here, I only know that their advice was sound and it helped me.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

stedfin said:


> I think it's rather shallowminded and short sighted to suggest that those who "have been exposed" to infidelity are in a better place to assist others in that situation.


Wrong. Who better to help others than those who have walked in a BSs shoes? You see, it's a BS thang, you just wouldn't understand. This is why you can't relate to the pain and suffering that BSs go through. The reason many people post in other threads is *to help others not to make the same mistakes we have made - because we know the pain*, just like any other support group. The collective experience and wisdom that every BS brings, even the newly betrayed, benefits all. We've all learned what works, and what doesn't.


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## Numb-badger (May 18, 2011)

100% correct Mr Mayhem.

Those who've walked through the streets of infidelity know only too well the dangers and threats that lurk there and are in a position to inform and advise the safest route through the grief.

Someone who hasn't been through it is merely talking about what they 'think' may happen. There is a difference.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Numb-badger said:


> Someone who hasn't been through it is merely talking about what they 'think' may happen. There is a difference.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## blinky (Feb 13, 2012)

snap said:


> It seems that this forum has lately attracted a bigger than usual number of what I call "spectators": people who haven't been exposed to infidelity, yet hang out and offer (in their opinion good) advice on the subject.
> 
> Now, I understand this is a public forum, we are all free people, everyone has a right for their own perspective, etc. But some of the posters come off as rather judgmental (of both WSs and BSs) with naivete obvious to anyone who ever was affected by infidelity. I must admit it rubs me the wrong way.
> 
> ...


And then there's an even worse kind of "spectator": the affair partners themselves who come on here just to tell BS's that affairs are wonderful, and we should give up, go away, and let them play with their rainbows. 
(If you are still following me you Ho, drop dead you sick loser!)


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

Just like I wouldn't go to a forum for people whose loved ones got murdered and pretend to give useful advice if something that dreadful did not happen to me, I think 'spectators' should have the decency and sense to not give 'advice' in this forum.

It's one thing to come here to learn information so that you can protect your marriage. It's another thing to try and render useful advice if you've never been a victim of infidelity. Until it happens to you -- IT'S ALL THEORY AND CONJECTURE.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

lordmayhem said:


> Wrong. Who better to help others than those who have walked in a BSs shoes? You see, it's a BS thang, you just wouldn't understand. This is why you can't relate to the pain and suffering that BSs go through. The reason many people post in other threads is *to help others not to make the same mistakes we have made - because we know the pain*, just like any other support group. The collective experience and wisdom that every BS brings, even the newly betrayed, benefits all. We've all learned what works, and what doesn't.


I agree. 

Before learning of my husbands cheating, I had no clue that there were clues to cheating. 

In retrospect their were lots of signs that he was cheating, but because I had no experience with it, and my mind does not work that way, I attributed it to job stress. 

As a BS I have researched and now know the red flags for cheating, and if I can pass this on to someone else, I know it will help them.

Personally, I feel my MC has caused more harm to me. I have stopped seeing her. Some of the stuff she says just seems to give my husband carte blanche to cheat again, and she has never told him cheating is the wrong way to solve marital problems.

I have been helped to cope more by others who have dealt with cheating spouses, than by IC or MC.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> Personally, I feel my MC has caused more harm to me. I have stopped seeing her. Some of the stuff she says just seems to give my husband carte blanche to cheat again, and *she has never told him cheating is the wrong way to solve marital problems*.


Horrible. Just horrible. Seriously, she needs to find a new career.

Yes, my eyes have been opened to MC as well. We payed thousands of dollars to a highly respected MC in our area. He's probably advised people we've read about in the news, given the neighborhood he lives in.

He never once asked my WS if he was still in contact with his AP. He was every bit as uneducated as I was about infidelity. He just took my husband's word for it that it was all over.

He NEVER addressed WHY my husband thought it was okay to enter an emotional affair. Never examined what they might have said to one another (unless I brought it up), nothing. Just one gigantic rug sweep and the door to that was closed.

I remember we spent a vast amount of time talking about how much I hated it that my husband would call before he was leaving work to take a 30 minute drive home and then somehow arrive up to 90 minutes later. I would ask him repeatedly why he couldn't just call before he was actually intending to drive home--I wasn't asking him to come home earlier!  And to think, if I had leaned over and picked up his cell phone right there in front of the MC, all would have been revealed to me.

Not long after DD#2 I became obsessed with telling this old MC about how my husband continued to cheat on me with his AP for three more years--through nearly every minute of the 6+ months we were in counseling with that man. I cannot tell you how SATISFYING it was to tell him that.

Guess what the MC said to me: "And how does that make you feel?" :rofl: You couldn't make this stuff up if you tried.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

I disagree, I've been cheated on but it make no difference to me whether the people giving advice have experienced infidelity or not. Some of the best advice I've gotten was from people in A-OK relationships.

Besides I'm sure when people seek out help from a MC, they don't ask as a requirement that he/she have experienced infidelity like it makes their opinion anymore valid.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

This thread makes me feel a bit defensive, probably more than it should, but nonetheless I want to explain something.

I've been married a very long time, in a marriage which I'm not sure will last. But no, so far as I'm aware infidelity is not a factor. My comments in CWI have been limited to two occassions where I questioned the merit of exposing the affair in the workplace. As I said at the time, I get exposure, I really do. I understand what the goal is and how useful it is in breaking up the affair.

But I'm also an attorney (though I'm blessed not to have had to practice "family" law in quite a long time), and I'm also thinking tactically but from a different angle. In those cases where divorce is a likely outcome (like where the cheating partner has already filed for divorce), I think you're running a high risk of impacting your long-term finances if your spouse winds up getting terminated, particularly if they can prove that your exposure led to it. It may not be right or fair, but that's the system for you. Maybe that didn't happen in your particular case, but it's a significant risk in general.

As a matter of fact, if we're thinking tactically, the best plan is to take advantage of the "Mr./Ms. Wonderful" effect and cut a good deal while the cheating spouse is still utterly fog-bound with their "wonderful" affair partner and still feeling a little guilty, and that's early in the game.

But I realise, even if only theoretically, that it's not that simple. The heart wants what it wants, even if it's to save a marriage that in all likelihood should be put to death anyways.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Complexity said:


> I disagree, I've been cheated on but it make no difference to me whether the people giving advice have experienced infidelity or not. Some of the best advice I've gotten was from people in A-OK relationships.
> 
> Besides I'm sure when people seek out help from a MC, they don't ask as a requirement that he/she have experienced infidelity like it makes their opinion anymore valid.


You make a good point that an MC doesn't have to go through infidelity to help a couple that is going through it successfully reconcile (or appropriately separate). In fact, you could even make the argument that someone who has had only one excellent, healthy, lifelong marriage would make a great MC.

But infidelity has a variety of elements to it that are counter-intuitive and contradictory. It shares many traits of an extremely bad habit, compulsion, or even addiction. An MC who has not been taught how infidelity functions is going to make things much worse than if the couple had never gone to an MC.

I know mine did! I mean where can I go to sue him for $$$$ that I paid him so my husband could continue to secretly make a total fool of me? The MC is not any more responsible for my husband's immature choices than I am, but by golly if you are saying you're a licensed professional, then you better damn well have the training to live up to that.

I know in my own profession I'd have been kicked out long ago for that type of malpractice.

I'll tell you why I'm so sure about this: while I sit and keep my trap shut, our NEW MC is saying all the things I've read on this forum and more. I thought I'd never meet an MC who told my husband he better have GPS on his phone to keep him honest. Not as a permanent solution, because I have better things to do in life than play nanny to a man in his 40's. But you should have seen him grill my husband over the coals over exactly what went down in his relationship and how he could prove it was over. He wasn't offensive or mean about it, he used a lot of humor. But I can't help but wonder how things would have turned out if that man had been sitting across from us three years ago.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

There is really only one particular piece of advice from anyone who has not personally experienced infidelity that I take exception to, and that's advice to divorce - period. 

The vast majority of people who say flat footed that they would divorce if their spouses cheated have not been there. Those of us that have experienced infidelity know that there are too many variables, too many definitions of cheating, too many emotions, and too much to lose to make that decision black and white when/if you have to make it. 

Other than someone with no personal experience telling someone in the middle of it that they should blindly walk away I think some of the advice from those who have not had to face infidelity can be helpful.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

iheartlife said:


> You make a good point that an MC doesn't have to go through infidelity to help a couple that is going through it successfully reconcile (or appropriately separate). In fact, you could even make the argument that someone who has had only one excellent, healthy, lifelong marriage would make a great MC.
> 
> But infidelity has a variety of elements to it that are counter-intuitive and contradictory. It shares many traits of an extremely bad habit, compulsion, or even addiction. An MC who has not been taught how infidelity functions is going to make things much worse than if the couple had never gone to an MC.
> 
> ...


It's very interesting you say that. I've had more faith in snake oil salesmen than some of the counselors I've met. But the problem with infidelity is that it's a heterogeneous phenomenon. It's has so many variants, circumstances, motivations that you can't have a one cure for all manual book to "treat it". No matter how much experience a person may have in a certain field of infidelity one little change to the circumstance and that advice becomes useless.

For example, suppose you had a neglectful spouse who's failure to show attention to his wife led her to have an affair. If you encourage the BS to commit the 180 and "No More Mr Nice Guy" then what would that solve exactly? If he's been doing that throughout the marriage then that just reinforces her justification for having the affair. Thus no matter how much knowledge one has, no one experiences everything and so they cannot superimpose their life experiences onto others.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

sigma1299 said:


> There is really only one particular piece of advice from anyone who has not personally experienced infidelity that I take exception to, and that's advice to divorce - period.
> 
> The vast majority of people who say flat footed that they would divorce if their spouses cheated have not been there. Those of us that have experienced infidelity know that there are too many variables, too many definitions of cheating, too many emotions, and too much to lose to make that decision black and white when/if you have to make it.
> 
> Other than someone with no personal experience telling someone in the middle of it that they should blindly walk away I think some of the advice from those who have not had to face infidelity can be helpful.


:iagree:

Well said Sig, until you've walked in their shoes.......


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## Mike11 (Aug 25, 2011)

snap said:


> It seems that this forum has lately attracted a bigger than usual number of what I call "spectators": people who haven't been exposed to infidelity, yet hang out and offer (in their opinion good) advice on the subject.
> 
> Now, I understand this is a public forum, we are all free people, everyone has a right for their own perspective, etc. But some of the posters come off as rather judgmental (of both WSs and BSs) with naivete obvious to anyone who ever was affected by infidelity. I must admit it rubs me the wrong way.
> 
> ...


Well, I am considered one of these "spectators",and I have not "yet" publicly wrote my story here on the forum (from reasons that I prefer not to discuses here), 

However I do have experience with infidelity (happened 20 years ago) and with both being a parent and being married to the same spouse for 22 years, it gives me some ability to offer some help and an additional point of view in some cases.

Yes, I don't currently deal with infidelity the way that most of you have/had to deal with, both me and my wife had to deal with other life altering experience that the fallout and marital dynamic results are very similar to full blown Infidelity (at least from my experience), now I agree that some of the spectating members participating here may come across as unsubstantiated advice, not to disrespect the very wise and experience people in this forum, but from my own experience, sometimes the best advice on a particular situation can come from the least experienced to actually resolve a tricky situation.

We are all Adults here (I hope so) and we all have ability, like in real life social and professional interactions that we are participating daily to "block" communications that are ineffective or non beneficial to us. 

I would suggest to do the same if any of the advice given does not align to what perceived to be effective advice to the situation of the poster

There is no effective why to "block" out people that we do not like their advice or it seem prejudicial, the same why that a forum troll cannot be effectively blocked from a public forum 
so better strategy would be to simply ignore postings that we don't like in our threads.

Just my 2 cents


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

Different people have different opinions, and that's fine. I like this board, but it does tend to subscribe to a certain amount of groupthink. I see no problem with someone pointing that out.

And yes, I have been through infidelity, but who cares? Even though I have, I also disagree with some of the strategies that are often proposed here. For example, I have worked for many corporate CEOs and university presidents, and calls to our company about someone's affair get a courteous, meaningless response and an instant dump into File 13 -- they have no credibility, but people on here will continue to recommend contacting the OM/OW's workplace. OK, that's fine, but I'll continue to point out that that is usually going to be a pointless endeavor, and my opinion on that comes not from the fact that I was cheated on, but on the fact that I have years of workplace experience with exactly this issue.

As long as people express themselves courteously, I don't care if they are "spectators" or not. Opinions are just that -- opinions, and we are all free to take them or leave them.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Complexity said:


> It's very interesting you say that. I've had more faith in snake oil salesmen than some of the counselors I've met. But the problem with infidelity is that it's a heterogeneous phenomenon. It's has so many variants, circumstances, motivations that you can't have a one cure for all manual book to "treat it". No matter how much experience a person may have in a certain field of infidelity one little change to the circumstance and that advice becomes useless.
> 
> For example, suppose you had a neglectful spouse who's failure to show attention to his wife led her to have an affair. If you encourage the BS to commit the 180 and "No More Mr Nice Guy" then what would that solve exactly? If he's been doing that throughout the marriage then that just reinforces her justification for having the affair. Thus no matter how much knowledge one has, no one experiences everything and so they cannot superimpose their life experiences onto others.


I think that is the strength of a forum. You can learn about the different permutations and what works for you and what doesn't. You get voices and perspectives which gives you more insight. But the counselor, with proper training, can hold a WS accountable in a way that the BS can't always manage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

My 2 cents: there are different degrees of infidelity. I've experienced it several times over the course of my life... But those experiences were with boyfriends. Some were LTRs some not so long term, but it's still cheating nonetheless. Does that mean I am qualified even though it happened before I was married? I say it does. 

I walked away from every single one of those cheaters. Now that I'm actually married? I love to say that *I don't reconcile* because I never have before; but you're all right about one thing. Much harder to walk away from a marriage, vs a boyfriend/girlfriend. It would entail much much more than simply walking away at this stage...

Strength to us all...


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## donders (May 9, 2012)

GTdad said:


> But I'm also an attorney (though I'm blessed not to have had to practice "family" law in quite a long time), and I'm also thinking tactically but from a different angle. In those cases where divorce is a likely outcome (like where the cheating partner has already filed for divorce), I think you're running a high risk of impacting your long-term finances if your spouse winds up getting terminated, particularly if they can prove that your exposure led to it. It may not be right or fair, but that's the system for you. Maybe that didn't happen in your particular case, but it's a significant risk in general.


Exactly.

I haven't been through infidelity but I've been through a high conflict divorce including a host of support issues.

Lots of crazy advice given by "seasoned vets who have been through infidelity" along the lines of "expose their cheating partner and make them get fired". And all sorts of other crazy things in a desperate hope to get the cheater back, with no regard of the long term effects in the likely event that reconciliation fails and divorce does happen.

That's only going to cost big time in the long run, as this seasoned and wise attorney has stated.

I'm thinking those who have been through it are much quicker to react and do all sorts of crazy things and give over the top advice because of their 'triggers'.

Those who have not been through it, maybe can give better advice because they have obviously been in more successful relationships that did not involve infidelity.

Its like those who have been cheated are projecting their own unresolved difficulties on the cheating partners of the betrayed partners who post here!


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

donders said:


> Exactly.
> 
> I haven't been through infidelity but I've been through a high conflict divorce including a host of support issues.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure that exposure is done to get someone fired; isn't it geared more toward exposing to the AP's husband/wife? Their family? Friends? No, risking someone's livelihood is not the smartest thing to do, especially if, as you say, support payments are to be an issue.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

donders said:


> Exactly.
> 
> I haven't been through infidelity but I've been through a high conflict divorce including a host of support issues.
> 
> ...


And just what are the crazy things you claim that people here advise others to do? Please do tell.




donders said:


> Those who have not been through it, maybe can give better advice because they have obviously been in more successful relationships that did not involve infidelity.


:lol:

See, this what we're talking about. You subscribe to the myth that infidelity only happens in crappy marriages and those who are in infidelity free marriages know it all? Excuse me. Infidelity can hit any marriage. It doesn't matter how good you think your marriage is. It doesn't matter how many children you have. It doesn't matter how long you've been married. Its easy to say that we who haven't been cheated on are in better marriages when it hasn't happened to you yet. 



donders said:


> Its like those who have been cheated are projecting their own unresolved difficulties on the cheating partners of the betrayed partners who post here!


Anger projection is a normal part of any support group.


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## donders (May 9, 2012)

CandieGirl said:


> I'm not sure that exposure is done to get someone fired; isn't it geared more toward exposing to the AP's husband/wife? Their family? Friends? No, risking someone's livelihood is not the smartest thing to do, especially if, as you say, support payments are to be an issue.


The advice I see here encourages the betrayed partner to do anything and everything to stop the affair so after the cheating partner's anger has subsided they will realize their big mistake and come running back. Even if this means they lose their job in the process. This seems to involve workplace affairs only.



lordmayhem said:


> And just what are the crazy things you claim that people here advise others to do? Please do tell.


Primarily exposing the affair in a lame attempt to stop it, even if it means one or both of the two cheating partners may suffer job loss. Anything else that will evoke anger in the cheating partner that will make a civil divorce unlikely. Sorry I thought that was clear.




lordmayhem said:


> Its easy to say that we who haven't been cheated on are in better marriages when it hasn't happened to you yet.


Its easy to say because it's true. A marriage with no infidelity is better than one that has infidelity.



lordmayhem said:


> Anger projection is a normal part of any support group.


No doubt. And advice given should be viewed with that in mind. Heck on another thread a couple that was reconciling were completely blown away by advice that told the cheating wife to suggest to the husband that they get divorced! That advice was given by a "seasoned vet" as well.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

donders said:


> Lots of crazy advice given by "seasoned vets who have been through infidelity" along the lines of "expose their cheating partner and make them get fired".


The exposure is typically suggested as means to kill the affair. You have some deep objection to that?



> That's only going to cost big time in the long run, as this seasoned and wise attorney has stated.


As opposed to..? Doing nothing about it, while your guts being wrenched?



> Those who have not been through it, maybe can give better advice because they have obviously been in more successful relationships that did not involve infidelity.


Well, let's take you as an example. You have quite strong opinions about how things shouldn't be handled in infidelity, right there in your post. You never been a victim of infidelity yourself. Should that mean you'd give a better advice?

But then, you said your marriage was crappy and ended in divorce. Not exactly a success story either? So why again would your advice be better?



> Its like those who have been cheated are projecting their own unresolved difficulties on the cheating partners of the betrayed partners who post here!


No, it's like there are thousand varieties of cancer, but there are many commonalities in all of them. Just because chemo doesn't help in many cases, doesn't mean that you are entitled to suggest holy water instead.

Same with infidelity, people's behavior fall into patterns, and some responses produce better outcome than others.


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## donders (May 9, 2012)

snap said:


> The exposure is typically suggested as means to kill the affair. You have some deep objection to that?


Yes, I do object to exposing a cheating spouse if it's likely to cost them their job, because in the case of divorce the betrayed spouse is likely to be hit with a higher support obligation. I think we went through this already?



snap said:


> Well, let's take you as an example. You have quite strong opinions about how things shouldn't be handled in infidelity, right there in your post. You never been a victim of infidelity yourself. Should that mean you'd give a better advice?


Not necessarily better. Just different, calmer, maybe less likely to be shooting from the hip because of unresolved anger towards a cheating spouse. 



snap said:


> But then, you said your marriage was crappy and ended in divorce. Not exactly a success story either? So why again would your advice be better?


Because I have a clearer head having not been cheated on. I'm not egging on some betrayed spouse to try to get even with a cheater and make their life miserable because it might have happened to me and I'm projecting. 



snap said:


> No, it's like there are thousand varieties of cancer, but there are many commonalities in all of them. Just because chemo doesn't help in many cases, doesn't mean that you are entitled to suggest holy water instead.


I would never suggest holy water to cure an ailment.



snap said:


> Same with infidelity, people's behavior fall into patterns, and some responses produce better outcome than others.


That's true. Everyone's situation is different.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

donders said:


> Its easy to say because it's true. A marriage with no infidelity is better than one that has infidelity.


So, I have not been a victim of infidelity for first 9 years of my marriage. Should that mean that my advice back then would've been better than it is now after I experienced it?


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## donders (May 9, 2012)

snap said:


> So, I have not been a victim of infidelity for first 9 years of my marriage. Should that mean that my advice back then would've been better than it is now after I experienced it?


Would you suggest that a betrayed partner take steps to expose a workplace affair in a desperate attempt to get a cheating partner to give up an affair even if there's a good possibility of divorce anyway and a good chance that the tactic would get that soon to be ex fired, which would result in a high conflict divorce and high support obligation on the part of the betrayed spouse?

If so, would you have given this same advice before you were cheated on? If not, I'd say the answer to your question is YES.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

You answered a question I didn't ask, and didn't answer my question.

Was I better qualified for infidelity advice before I was cheated on?


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## donders (May 9, 2012)

snap said:


> You answered a question I didn't ask, and didn't answer my question.
> 
> Was I better qualified for infidelity advice before I was cheated on?


I don't have the information to answer your question with any degree of certainty, but I sure hope not.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

Well am pretty sure myself I wasn't. Looking back a lot of my preconceptions were naive, and my first response to it was botched.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

Can't we all just get along?


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

donders said:


> Its easy to say because it's true. A marriage with no infidelity is better than one that has infidelity.


Sorry man - NOT necessarily TRUE - I had a good marriage before my EA - now I have a great one. My wife will tell you, "it was worth it."


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

donders said:


> Its easy to say because it's true. A marriage with no infidelity is better than one that has infidelity.


By your logic, a marriage where one of the spouse is emotionally or physically abused (but no infidelity) is better than one with infidelity.

Too many moving parts when humans decide to become couples to make such a blanket statement.


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## donders (May 9, 2012)

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> By your logic, a marriage where one of the spouse is emotionally or physically abused (but no infidelity) is better than one with infidelity..


I can see where my statement was too general so as to allow for that possible conclusion so please allow me to rephrase and say "all other things being equal a marriage with no infidelity is better than one with infidelity" and I'll add that a marriage with infidelity is also one in which the betrayed spouse is emotionally abused.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

donders said:


> Its easy to say because it's true. A marriage with no infidelity is better than one that has infidelity.


I won't agree that in all cases that is correct, but in mine the marriage was in terrible shape before the infidelity. And that was a driver in her engaging in an EA. However as we came out the other-side, the marriage was a much better one and continues to be.

Still waters never made a good sailor.


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## EADGBe (Mar 14, 2012)

Whoa.

I realize that the internet does not revolve around me, but it seems that my thread and topic of affair exposure in the workplace seems to have started some disagreements in a forum that is supposed to be about *support*. I'm sure there are similar threads going on right now too.

I don't think that there should be a hard and fast rule about it - as pointed out in my case, since my STBXW has already filed for divorce, exposure to her workplace wouldn't really accomplish much aside from potential embarassement (which would be delicious, but ultimately unproductive). If the situation were one where the marriage could still be saved, it might be necessary for workplace exposure in order to help kill the affair.

Other variables would include size of the workplace (my STBXW's is small), superior/subordinate relationship if any, company policy, etc. Each case is different and must be analyzed that way. *GTdad's* advice to me in my thread was spot on.

And let's throw the "sue the workplace for allowing it to happen" directly into the incinerator.

Now, I'm no pro at this having just started on my coping with infidelity journey. What I have appreciated though are the words of encouragement from those who have gone through this already. They can speak to the emotions, because they felt them and survived them. It is good to know there is an exit from this, even if the person going through it can't see it. Support from those who haven't experienced it though do not ring hollow - they are sincere and I am sure there is a feeling in them of "there but for the grace of God go I". 

I am taking in everything everyone is saying, both good and bad. Support and slaps to the head. It is all good because, at least in my case, going through the pain of infidelity *I can't think straight*. Not right now. It helps to get focused by those with experience and those with an outside perspective. Well thought out, well intentioned advice and directions are always welcome (to me anyways).

/end soapbox


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

Nobody would argue with that donders. But you see our problem, there can be a point at which a marriage without infidelity turns into one with infidelity.

There was this story in the papers the other day about Italian guy divorcing his wife of 70 years at the age of 99. He found out she cheated on him in1940s.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

donders said:


> "all other things being equal a marriage with no infidelity is better than one with infidelity" and I'll add that a marriage with infidelity is also one in which the betrayed spouse is emotionally abused.


So what about cases like mine - and I'm not the only one here who will tell you that their marriage is better post infidelity??


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## donders (May 9, 2012)

sigma1299 said:


> So what about cases like mine - and I'm not the only one here who will tell you that their marriage is better post infidelity??






Amplexor said:


> I won't agree that in all cases that is correct, but in mine the marriage was in terrible shape before the infidelity. And that was driver in her engaging in an EA. However as we came out the other-side, the marriage was a much better one and continues to be.
> 
> Still waters never made a good sailor.


Ok so we can say that a marriage with no infidelity is, generally speaking, better than one with "active infidelity", all other things being equal, and a marriage that has survived infidelity can be even better than one in which there was never any infidelity.

I am in no way suggesting that a person go out and have an affair so as to make their marriage better.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

donders said:


> I am in no way suggesting that a person go out and have an affair so as to make their marriage better.


Well, at least THAT's something


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

Hope1964 said:


> I liken it to those who are childless telling those with kids how to raise them.


You could look at it the other way. We have managed to avoid infidelity. Only listening to those who have suffered infidelity is like getting driving lessons from car crash victims.

I would think that it would be best to get as broad a range of views as possible.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

Or you were lucky to avoid infidelity.

Anyway, as I stated from the beginning, we are all entitled to our opinions and this is a public forum. The point was to avoid passing judgment in situations you can't relate to.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

johnnycomelately said:


> I would think that it would be best to get as broad a range of views as possible.


Well I will disagree, when I first found this place and was struggling to cope with infidelity, what I needed to get out of limbo was a narrow focus, not a wide range of opinons. My ex was following the very common script and it was the advice of the tenured CWI members here that is what I needed at the time.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

johnnycomelately said:


> You could look at it the other way. We have managed to avoid infidelity. Only listening to those who have suffered infidelity is like getting driving lessons from car crash victims.


What's wrong with getting driving lessons from car crash victims?? 

Actually the car crash victim analogy is not that bad. Like the victim of a drunk driver who, through NO fault of their own got hit when they were just driving along minding all the laws, the betrayed spouse got totally blindsided by something that was not their fault in any way, shape or form.


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## northland (Apr 13, 2012)

johnnycomelately said:


> You could look at it the other way. We have managed to avoid infidelity. Only listening to those who have suffered infidelity is like getting driving lessons from car crash victims.


Great analogy!



Hope1964 said:


> What's wrong with getting driving lessons from car crash victims??


There's nothing wrong with it as long as you understand that car crash victims are not necessarily better drivers than those who have never been in a car crash, and in fact they might be worse drivers because they might have something to do with the crash. I am not saying the betrayed spouse is responsible for the affair but maybe the way they treated their spouse, ignored the signs, overlooked the problems, chose their marriage partner despite certain negative characteristics.. all these things can play a role in infidelity and one thing is clear, a betrayed spouse is not necessarily a better advice giver than one who has never experienced infidelity.

Then again there do appear to be some on this forum who have been through it, learned from it, know the "tricks of the trade" and provide excellent advice but this is contrasted by those who are just going through it now, or have been through it recently and seem to be doing nothing more than trying to wreck havoc and misery on all cheaters because they take it personally because they are a victim themselves.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

northland said:


> Great analogy!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bull!! If you've never experienced infidelity, there's no way you can advise me on how to get through the emotional upheaval that I'm feeling (unless you're a trained specialist.)

I'll take my cues from the people who have been there and not someone spewing pie in the sky solutions to my problems.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

> Then again there do appear to be some on this forum who have been through it, learned from it, know the "tricks of the trade" and provide excellent advice but this is contrasted by those who are just going through it now, or have been through it recently and seem to be doing nothing more than trying to wreck havoc and misery on all cheaters because they take it personally because they are a victim themselves.



:iagree:


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## Sweet Tea (May 4, 2012)

I have been lurking on this site since January of this year and I am a BS. Husband and I are working on it and in a good place right now.

Even though I have not posted on here I have received invaluable information from the threads in CWI. As with anything, you gather the information and use what will work in your situation. I must be honest and tell you, the posts that started with I am not a BS/WS or I have never been through infidelity are the ones I would skip over. Why, because I know for a fact, that the advice I would have given family and friends before D-Day is completely different than the advice I would give now. 

To use a really bad analogy ....If I were having trouble with a puppy that chews everything in the house, I would not talk with someone who does not own a puppy or anyone that has the "perfect" puppy. I would speak with someone who HAD a puppy that chewed and went through the steps to correct that puppy. Why, because they know exactly what I'm going through.
They have been there, they know the signs, they know the reactions, they know what will and will not work.

Oh and please don't tell me your marriage is better than mine . In my 51 years on this planet I have discovered many many things and one of them is this. There are two types of marriages in this world, those with problems and those who have yet to discover their problems.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Regarding the driving lessons analogy: I'll presume to understand the OP's intent here - this is the *coping *with *infidelity *forum, not the relationship forum, being married and not having suffered infidelity is not a credential in this section. Posting here with no knowledge of infidelity is like giving driving lessons when you don't know how to drive. Sure you can look at it and think you understand it, or you can read a book and believe you know the best courses of action; but, until you've sat behind the wheel you don't know how it feels to push those pedals and turn that wheel. I post very very little in the divorce sections - I'm married and fortunately have no experience with divorce. They don't really want to hear from me, someone not suffering their fate, over there and I recognize that I have no basis in experience to offer constructive advice or understanding to those people.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

snap said:


> Or you were lucky to avoid infidelity.


A journalist once said how lucky Gary Player was to make a long putt. He said 'the more I practice the luckier I get.'

The real issue is that some of you don't think we ought to be here unless we have been cheated on. This is divisive and narrow minded and no good can come of it. 

The OP asked for sensitivity, but doesn't everybody deserve sensitivity and respect regardless of whether they have been cheated on or not? At the same time everyone has a duty to be sensitive and respectful. You are free to ignore or report those who are not.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

sigma1299 said:


> Posting here with no knowledge of infidelity is like giving driving lessons when you don't know how to drive. Sure you can look at it and think you understand it, or you can read a book and believe you know the best courses of action; but, until you've sat behind the wheel you don't know how it feels to push those pedals and turn that wheel.


I disagree with this entirely. First hand experience is not a pre-requisite for having something of value to say. Immanuel Kant is considered by many to be the greatest philisopher of all time and he never travelled more than 10 miles from his home, never married and was a virtual recluse. 

If you guys ignore everyone who hasn't suffered infidelity you will be the ones to lose.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

sigma1299 said:


> Regarding the driving lessons analogy: I'll presume to understand the OP's intent here - this is the *coping *with *infidelity *forum, not the relationship forum, being married and not having suffered infidelity is not a credential in this section. Posting here with no knowledge of infidelity is like giving driving lessons when you don't know how to drive. Sure you can look at it and think you understand it, or you can read a book and believe you know the best courses of action; but, until you've sat behind the wheel you don't know how it feels to push those pedals and turn that wheel. I post very very little in the divorce sections - I'm married and fortunately have no experience with divorce. They don't really want to hear from me, someone not suffering their fate, over there and I recognize that I have no basis in experience to offer constructive advice or understanding to those people.


While I completely agree with much of the rationale here, where it is obvious that you need experience from those who have been there, this thread is too accusatory, in my opinion, and sometimes very naive. For one, looking at the posts that are usually here, not everyone comes to this section when they are far into the throes of infidelity. Some want advice when they suspect red flags. Others want advice on shoring up a marriage, or the way they portray themselves to their spouse, where they suspect red flag behaviors. But really? Can you actually believe that in a long term marriage, a spouse's behavior has always been dealt with through rainbows and unicorns even if they haven't quite fallen into a physical or deeply emotional affair? Few marriages, long term, are not touched in such a way that the person has to come up with a game plan to address it on more than one occasion. And unlike the replies here keep suggesting, these people don't always uniformly avoid this actual progression purely by mistake, or by believing in unicorns and rainbow theory. The key is having the common sense to reply to the areas where we feel that our experience might offer help, and avoiding the gory stages of betrayal that we haven't seen. 

We sometimes can't help but finding ourself married to a person with a weakness for infidelity. Occasionally, we'll luck up and stumble on truths for addressing it, though. Its mostly blind luck, and then the experience we build upon in addressing these behaviors in our spouse. The key for us who haven't been further into it, I believe, is having enough respect for the subject to refrain from telling a person how to respond when they are in the depths of betrayal. Yes, we might offer advice about how to deal with a person who sometimes shows a lack of control over their executive behaviors and their response to emotional situations, but our adice only goes as far as our experience in handling something successfully. We can encourage the person going through betryal to see the self-worth that we see in them, and maybe it can help some. Again, not all the threads here quite fit the scope that most responders have seemed to assume.

Far too many see their own infidelity as an excuse to offer sound advice on what a person can do to strengthen their position while they are being betrayed, when they themselves admit that they responded very poorly when they went through it, and offer no personal experience to suggest that they would handle it well if it happened again. Yet ... I think it would be pretty naive to call them, or anyone, spectators or 'unicorn believers' if they've never handled the infidelity in the way that they now ascribe to on this thread. 

When someone comes into the site, and it is obvious that they are too young and inexperienced to offer the advice, we could respond to it or simply ignore it. Or, we could make blanket assumptions about the who subject of infidelity, and who does or does not have the right to offer an opinion. I think the way to respond is somewhere in between.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

johnnycomelately said:


> A journalist once said how lucky Gary Player was to make a long putt. He said 'the more I practice the luckier I get.'


Since you love the analogies, let me borrow the driving one.

Do you believe you will never get into a traffic accident because so far you haven't been into one? What would Kant say to that?

And this subforum is not about avoiding infidelity anyway, but dealing with what has happened.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

I will say this-

before my wife's infidelity I did indeed understand the pain and destructiveness of an affair. I also understood that there was no excuse for them and treating a WS nicely will not usually work. The reason being is due to being placed in the middle of my parent's mess when I was 20-25 and watching my mother go through a mental breakdown and my father act like a person I never knew he could be.

But ultimately I was still not one to dispense advice, nor did I seek to do that. I still had the perspective to merely "cut and run", which yes, is a valid response in some cases but I did not have the experience to know what it takes to fix things and recognize remorse and I did not understand the value of offering R from a position of strength. IOW, the more I dealt with it, the more I learned and the more perspective I got. So yes, I do value the opinion of certain posters with experience including experience staying on the boards after their ordeal.

They say one becomes an "expert" after 10,000 hours of experience. That means if you study or work with infidelity as a therapist or counselor for 8 hours a day every day including weekends, it would take 3 and half years to be an "expert".

I believe the intensity of being directly involved often accelerates that learning curve. I'm not claiming to be an expert here but I think I have pretty good grip on infidelity by this point having to deal with my parents, myself and my wife and then 2 years of message board infidelity so at least in some respects I have the "credentials" over that someone who hasn't dealt with such things before. I won't blast them for offering an opinion (well most of the time), but I will speak up and state why I feel my advice may be a better course of action. But I will not be ignorant enough to claim I still can't learn anything new, I have been surprised too often to be so set in my ways and be so stubborn.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

snap said:


> Since you love the analogies, let me borrow the driving one.
> 
> Do you believe you will never get into a traffic accident because so far you haven't been into one? What would Kant say to that?
> 
> And this subforum is not about avoiding infidelity anyway, but dealing with what has happened.


I'm not saying I am more or less likely to be cheated on, I just believe that wisdom can come from the most unexpected places.


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## donders (May 9, 2012)

Sweet Tea said:


> To use a really bad analogy ....If I were having trouble with a puppy that chews everything in the house, I would not talk with someone who does not own a puppy or anyone that has the "perfect" puppy. I would speak with someone who HAD a puppy that chewed and went through the steps to correct that puppy. Why, because they know exactly what I'm going through.
> They have been there, they know the signs, they know the reactions, they know what will and will not work.


See that's where you're mistaken. You naturally assume that a betrayed spouse will have all the answers, that because they've been there, and appropriately and effectively dealt with the situation, they are the most knowledgeable and best qualified to give advice. That "might" be true, but only if they successfully managed their situation and don't let their own unresolved emotions dictate their actions and advice, and from what I've seen here, very few have gotten to that point.

A better analogy might be that you take dog advice from the person who has a dog at home that is completely untrained and craps all over the place and chews everything in sight.



Sweet Tea said:


> Oh and please don't tell me your marriage is better than mine . In my 51 years on this planet I have discovered many many things and one of them is this. There are two types of marriages in this world, those with problems and those who have yet to discover their problems.


Yes most marriages have some problems, but not not all marriages suffer from infidelity. If your marriage suffers from infidelity and another one doesn't, well that marriage IS better than yours, that's just how it is..



snap said:


> Since you love the analogies, let me borrow the driving one.
> 
> Do you believe you will never get into a traffic accident because so far you haven't been into one? What would Kant say to that?
> 
> And this subforum is not about avoiding infidelity anyway, but dealing with what has happened.


If you've been in a car accident the odds are greater that you'll be in another one compared to a person with a clean driving record. That's why insurance rates go up with tickets and accidents, it's a pattern that indicates the probability of another occurance.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

donders said:


> Yes most marriages have some problems, but not not all marriages suffer from infidelity. If your marriage suffers from infidelity and another one doesn't, well that marriage IS better than yours, that's just how it is..


quite an assumption there

let's put aside drug abuse, domestic violence or child abuse, alcoholism, verbal abuse, and other such nastiness that exists in marriages that don't experience infidelity, because there are indeed other problems that exist that are just as bad or almost as bad or worse and I'm sure you aren't referring to those marriages.


But to say that if any particular marriage is automatically better than a properly reconciled marriage that went through infidelity is bunk and quite presumptuous.

Now if a couple has as much fun and as much of a genuine loving interaction as my wife and I do currently without having to go through with infidelity then I would agree that they certainly achieved that goal through a much better process and have a better marriage than me (bully for them, I'm jealous). But I see many marriages of my peers where infidelity isn't present but they just don't connect to each other anymore in any fruitful way other than being good parents and the occasional romantic anniversary dinner. They don't have any real turmoil like infidelity or abuse or what have you, but they also don't have anything real with each other besides from shared finances, kids they both love and the notion that this is how it's supposed to be.

I would say that my marriage is better than theirs, and while they can turn theirs around, most never will do that as they are complacent and almost sleepwalking to a degree. As horrible as my experience was, it opened our eyes. And it sucks that infidelity was the catalyst, but nonetheless my current marriage is probably better than the majority of my friends' marriages at my age (I'm 42) and I had an unfaithful wife while they didn't.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

donders said:


> If you've been in a car accident the odds are greater that you'll be in another one compared to a person with a clean driving record. That's why insurance rates go up with tickets and accidents, it's a pattern that indicates the probability of another occurance.


Again, this wasn't my question. Does not getting into accident so far means you are a special driver who will never experience a car crash?

While you can argue that consecutive car accidents are not independent events from probability theory P.O.V., the first event always happens to a driver with a spotless record.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

Anyway this all beside the point.

Imagine a Coping With Accident online forum, where people discuss dealing with aftermath of car crash. Some guy was reared and got a neck whiplash. He might want to ask a question how others manage to sleep with neck injury, and get useful suggestions. Another is conned by his insurance company on the totaled car and wants to know how to deal with that.

Now, an advice of other victims who were through similar is obviously useful here. So would be an advice of a doctor or an insurance lawyer who never been through a car accident indeed.

However majority of drivers who have not experienced car accidents are not insurance lawyers or medical professionals. They are carpenters, office workers, even teens who have a whole year of driving experience (sometimes after a bong). And then some of them would come over and say "dude you should drive better".

You see where am getting at?


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

why did this thread get turned into a driver's ed class?


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

Question: If you haven't been cheated on or don't suspect your spouse of infidelity, why are you here in this sub-forum?

Are you here to learn ideas on how to protect your marriage? Are you someone who enjoys reading about other people's misery?

Or are you here to prove how superior you are because your spouse has never cheated on you?


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

Count, for some of the posters it indeed must be a case of Schadenfreude. For majority though I genuinely hope it's a desire to help, even if somewhat misguided.


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## donders (May 9, 2012)

snap said:


> Again, this wasn't my question. Does not getting into accident so far means you are a special driver who will never experience a car crash?


No, a person who has never experienced a car crash is not immune from ever having one, although the odds of them ever having one is less than a person who has had one or more of them. 



snap said:


> While you can argue that consecutive car accidents are not independent events from probability theory P.O.V., the first event always happens to a driver with a spotless record.


Right, the first time something happens to someone is always the first time it happens to them. Your point?



Count of Monte Cristo said:


> Question: If you haven't been cheated on or don't suspect your spouse of infidelity, why are you here in this sub-forum?


I feel compelled to assist by disputing some of the bad advice I see given out by betrayed partners who are responding based on their own emotions and not necessarily logic and reason. 



Count of Monte Cristo said:


> Are you here to learn ideas on how to protect your marriage? Are you someone who enjoys reading about other people's misery?


I find the subject of human relationships, dynamics, conflict rather fascinating, I'm recently divorced, rebuilding my life, I've suffered some rather extreme disappointments and emotional highs and lows, and it helps me heal. Yes sometimes reading about the misery of others makes me realize I could have it a heck of a lot worse.



Count of Monte Cristo said:


> Or are you here to prove how superior you are because your spouse has never cheated on you?


Nah, I don't feel superior, my exwife surely did a heck of a lot of horrible things to me during the marriage and through a very high conflict divorce, although I'm glad I never had to go through cheating, that's for sure.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

The best you can say is that you believe you have not had infidelity. Most infidelity goes undetected. Also, with the frequency of infidelity, you don't know what the future will bring. 

I believe my husband has not cheated and I have not. I am here because I am trying to come to terms with growing up with a cheating father. 

I am trying to understand what and to forgive him fully.


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## Sweet Tea (May 4, 2012)

donders said:


> See that's where you're mistaken. You naturally assume that a betrayed spouse will have all the answers, that because they've been there, and appropriately and effectively dealt with the situation, they are the most knowledgeable and best qualified to give advice. That "might" be true, but only if they successfully managed their situation and don't let their own unresolved emotions dictate their actions and advice, and from what I've seen here, very few have gotten to that point.
> 
> A better analogy might be that you take dog advice from the person who has a dog at home that is completely untrained and craps all over the place and chews everything in sight.
> 
> ...


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

donders said:


> I feel compelled to assist by disputing some of the bad advice I see given out by betrayed partners who are responding based on their own emotions and not necessarily logic and reason.



thank you for deciding that we betrayed are too emotional to give good advice





donders said:


> I find the subject of human relationships, dynamics, conflict rather fascinating, I'm recently divorced, rebuilding my life, I've suffered some rather extreme disappointments and emotional highs and lows, and it helps me heal. Yes sometimes reading about the misery of others makes me realize I could have it a heck of a lot worse.


Nice to know we can make others feel better about themselves by being so pathetic






donders said:


> Nah, I don't feel superior, my exwife surely did a heck of a lot of horrible things to me during the marriage and through a very high conflict divorce, although I'm glad I never had to go through cheating, that's for sure.



No cheating that you know of....just saying


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

donders said:


> Right, the first time something happens to someone is always the first time it happens to them. Your point?


That is exactly my point.


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## donders (May 9, 2012)

Sweet Tea said:


> You completely lost me on the dog thing LOL (it's not pretty when the blonde and senior moment collide ) why would I take advise from someone who has absolutely no control over their pet????


When you take advice from someone else who went through infidelity you are doing the same thing, unless they are one of the few who effectively handled the situation and based on their first hand experience they are able to adequately advice you on the steps to take.



Sweet Tea said:


> Not true. No marriage is perfect. They all have some problem somewhere. Marriage is made up of two people. People are not perfect, hence, the marriage is not perfect.. If you are going to tell me your marriage is perfect or better than mine I am going to call you on the carpet.


I said that all other things being equal a marriage without infidelity is worse than a marriage without infidelity. I never said any marriage is perfect. My marriage failed for different reasons than infidelity and after reading the stories on here I realize I could have had it a whole lot worse. That helps me heal. 




Almostrecovered said:


> thank you for deciding that we betrayed are too emotional to give good advice


Some of you are. It's obvious that you're taking out your unresolved anger towards other 3rd parties because you can't direct it at the true target. 



Almostrecovered said:


> Nice to know we can make others feel better about themselves by being so pathetic


Not quite what I said. 



Almostrecovered said:


> No cheating that you know of....just saying


Right. To my knowledge there was no cheating in my now failed marriage.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

I direct my anger at ignorance and the unwilling stance to learn or change, thus you can see why I am getting perturbed by your posts, I think I better leave this thread for now


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## Sweet Tea (May 4, 2012)

donders said:


> When you take advice from someone else who went through infidelity you are doing the same thing, unless they are one of the few who effectively handled the situation and based on their first hand experience they are able to adequately advice you on the steps to take.
> 
> *I understand what you are saying, however, I truly think most people can tell the difference between advise based on pure emotion, advised based on experience and hardwork, and advise based on pure conjecture. I don't think you are giving the people on here enough credit.*
> 
> ...


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

Many BS have had psychologists help us through the trauma of betrayal and pass on the advice given in those sessions. Many are compelled to read much on the subject including weighty tombs dredged from the depths of Google which they pass on.

The aim of much of the advice on this forum is not to protect the marriage, since, the act of cheating has destroyed the marriage they were having, but to protect the BS and allow healing to begin as soon as possible.

Denial in the BS is powerful and the trauma of betrayal triggers the flight, flight or freeze response Most people freeze. They are unable to believe that this is happening to them. The advice may look incredibly harsh but from experience you learn that people rarely act on the advice and if they do it is much watered down. This leads to multiple posts with one sentence 
"Divorce the skanky rat"
Over the year or more of posting I have noticed a pattern in the posts and learnt many things about myself. not all f them nice

The things said The actions taken and the results are almost identical across all situations and people. 

The thing you can not even begin to understand, unless you have been through it, is the ongoing and extreme pain that people are suffering in the first weeks and months of discovery. Yes, sometimes a regular will trigger and will get a little extreme, you know what. That is fine. The OP is triggering and it is reassuring to see another in the same boat. This doesn't mean that there will not be sane, calm and good advice on the same thread.

This is a support group for the BS and the WS if they really do want it. It is not a theoretical case . it is peoples lives destroyed. Peoples hearts broken and families ripped apart. It mostly ends in Divorce. 

I saw some argument about exposure. Of course you should expose it. Of course people have a right to know. It brings the affair into the light. If it is "tru love" then it will survive and the BS can move on with their life, quickly and as cleanly as possible. If the WS sees that they were wrong then they can address the problem with the person they married. They will probably divorce but they are at least talking.

While most people on here are pro-marriage, pro-making-it-work. They are also realists, they know the agony of betrayal and they know what a huge cost reconciliation comes at.

I have personal experience of multiple attempted fake R and would not be in the place I am in now if I had accepted R at face value.


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## donders (May 9, 2012)

Sweet Tea said:


> I understand what you are saying, however, I truly think most people can tell the difference between advise based on pure emotion, advised based on experience and hardwork, and advise based on pure conjecture. I don't think you are giving the people on here enough credit.


I see a lot of bad advice given, and acted on by posters acting on emotion and the need to "get even" with those bad cheaters. Several times in this past week this has happened, and I just shake my head at how newcomers jump at the advice given without considering the source. 



Sweet Tea said:


> But honestly, and I truly am not trying to be rude here, your marriage had promises of till death due us part and it failed. My marriage had promises of forsaking all others and it stumbled but has not failed. How is your marriage, which has ended in divorce, for whatever reason, better than mine which has not.


My marriage was no better than yours. Again I said "all other things being equal, a marriage with no infidelity..."

My marriage had a boatload of problems but reading the stories here I'd rather have gone through what I did rather than bear the pain of a cheating spouse.


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## Seawolf (Oct 10, 2011)

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> Question: If you haven't been cheated on or don't suspect your spouse of infidelity, why are you here in this sub-forum?
> 
> Are you here to learn ideas on how to protect your marriage? Are you someone who enjoys reading about other people's misery?
> 
> Or are you here to prove how superior you are because your spouse has never cheated on you?


This is a good question, and I get how those who have suffered betrayal in their marriage are sensitive to those of us who have not being here for our "entertainment". Luckily, my wife and I have a very good marriage and I can't imagine her every having an affair. I've said this throughout the time we've been married, but it is only after coming here that I can realize how ironic that sentence must be for most of you.

And that really is the point. Yes, I'll confess to some level of entertainment in reading these stories; we're literally witnessing the emotional trauma of real life and there is interest in it. We develop thoughts about people here, who they are, why they ended up in this situation, and how they will recover....or not. The bottom line is we care about the outcome, even if we don't have the requisite experience to provide advice.

Yet, the tales here are so horrific that it is not something I could come back to if it were just a vouyeristic experience. I've learned a lot here. First and foremost is that no matter how good one might believe their marriage is, no couple is immune to the risk of infidelity. 

So yes, I have done some snooping as a result of what I've learned here, and happily it seems all is ok. Interestingly, I have become aware of a guy sniffing around Mrs. Seawolf and to be honest, I don't think she is even aware of his intentions. I may be wrong, and perhaps he's just wanting to be a friend - he used to work for her before a company change - but I know from my reading here to be vigilant. So far, she is all business with his, too casual emails, and I've been proud of what I've seen from her.

But I"m watching.

So thanks guys, perhaps those of us who are observers here - and sometimes commenters - are taking advantage of your painful experiences, but it is not without reason and benefit. This forum does not just save marriages that are already on the skids, but it helps keep good marriages on track and for that I am grateful.


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## donders (May 9, 2012)

ing said:


> Denial in the BS is powerful and the trauma of betrayal triggers the flight, flight or freeze response Most people freeze. They are unable to believe that this is happening to them. The advice may look incredibly harsh but from experience you learn that people rarely act on the advice and if they do it is much watered down. This leads to multiple posts with one sentence
> "Divorce the skanky rat"


I agree completely with everything above including the advice to divorce them.




ing said:


> I saw some argument about exposure. Of course you should expose it. Of course people have a right to know. It brings the affair into the light. If it is "tru love" then it will survive and the BS can move on with their life, quickly and as cleanly as possible. If the WS sees that they were wrong then they can address the problem with the person they married. They will probably divorce but they are at least talking.


This is exactly the sort of bad advice I see dispensed here on a regular basis. I've been through an expensive high conflict divorce and I can tell you from personal experience, having learned by having been through it that if divorce is likely, to do things that will escalate the conflict will only make things much worse than they already are.

Nothing to be gained from exposure especially if it's a workplace affair that may result in job loss of the cheating spouse and higher support obligations for the betrayed spouse.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

When I first discovered my WWs secret facebook account, I was devastated. But that's all I had at the time. I talked to a friend who had NOT been through infidelity, and I got bad advice: to go ahead and confront her about it. So I did. All I got was "He's just a friend". I got the denials and I was gaslighted. 

I WISH I had gone online and found a support forum like this one, so I could listen to others who have been through this. I learned that I confronted too early. It would have saved me the agony of being continually lied to. I didn't know about the slippery slope, or even about EAs and PAs. I didn't know about the difference between remorse and regret. I didn't know about rug sweeping. I didn't know about VARs or keyloggers. I didn't know about the red flags of affairs. If I had just gone on the internet and gotten the advice of those who had been through this before me, I could have taken the appropriate measures and possibly have nipped this in the bud.

Before this happened, I too thought our marriage was rock solid, having survived 23 years of military life, all the deployments, the unaccompanied tours, the odd hours, the shift work, etc, etc, etc. I thought my wife was one of the most honest people in the world. We did everything together, we talk all the time. I was proud of her. Yet all it took for her to fall was something that she had never experiened: reconnecting with an old HS BF via facebook. 

So having been burned by listening to the advice of someone who didn't know jack sh!t about infidelity, I would rather listen to the voices of experience - those who have been through it and know what to do. I would hope to pass my hard won knowledge off to others in the hope that they can avoid the same mistakes I've made. 

Because that's how we make progress: We learn from our mistakes and the mistakes of others. 

Those who haven't been through it and say the advice is crazy from those who have, have their head in the sand. Don't be too sure it won't happen to you. It doesn't matter how long you've been married or how solid you THINK your marriage is. It can happen.

My first marriage ended because of my first wife's affair with a college classmate. But I was scarred for a very long time. I should have recognized the red flags from the first time, but it happened a long time ago, and I was feeling secure.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

Donders, so you're not a fan of exposure. I get that.

What other bad advice do you see getting dispensed around here?


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

donders said:


> This is exactly the sort of bad advice I see dispensed here on a regular basis. I've been through an expensive high conflict divorce and I can tell you from personal experience, having learned by having been through it that if divorce is likely, to do things that will escalate the conflict will only make things much worse than they already are.
> 
> Nothing to be gained from exposure especially if it's a workplace affair that may result in job loss of the cheating spouse and higher support obligations for the betrayed spouse.


Then you're doing the exact same thing as others have here: advising people based on your experience going thru a divorce. The difference here is that your exwife wasn't having a workplace affair, which is the most common affair there is. 

Exposure was extensively talked about in this thread:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/31786-expose-not-expose-question.html


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## donders (May 9, 2012)

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> Donders, so you're not a fan of exposure. I get that.
> 
> What other bad advice do you see getting dispensed around here?


There are some extreme cases where it's obvious that the cheating spouse is gone for good, has no interest in returning, is possibly even flaunting their affair, doesn't give a crap about the betrayed spouse, shows no remorse, and yet the advice given is to try to save the marriage by employing various strategies, rather than pointing the betrayed spouse in the direction of mounting an aggressive divorce and protecting their ASSets.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

snap said:


> It seems that this forum has lately attracted a bigger than usual number of what I call "spectators": people who haven't been exposed to infidelity, yet hang out and offer (in their opinion good) advice on the subject.


I'm not so sure that the only opinions of value are those who have either cheated or have been betrayed by a cheater.

Sometimes an outside opinion can be useful.

I've seen both good and bad advice given.

The type of participation someone has while fully trumatized is different than at a later state of mind--same person.

The type of commentary given by someone fully involved in cheating is different than at a later stage.

I also think that here are folks that do not reveal their true state and comment anyway.

There was a guy that was making "wise" commentary awhile back that was realy trolling for customers for his unlicensed marriage counseling. 

I put him on block.

I guess I'm trying to say that it is possible to separate the wheat from the chaff and react accordingly.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

Halien, this thread is not an attempt to start a witch hunt. It's just certain few threads here suddenly attracted a number of very vocal and opinionated posters, seemingly coming out of nowhere and not affected by infidelity in any way.

All people are free to voice their opinions, but those who never suffered from it are best advised to be extra considerate before jumping the gun.

You were exposed to infidelity issues by proxy of your father, so are clearly much less naive about it than I was a year ago (and perhaps now, as my views stem from a one-case study). 

There's often plenty of disagreement among posters already, and that's normal. Different folks come from different situations and maybe more helpful in cases they can relate to. For instance, I don't post often to the threads by betrayed women, not from lack of sympathy but because I don't quite clearly understand what options a woman in this situation has. However they do get great advice from other posters whose experiences were close.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

snap said:


> Halien, this thread is not an attempt to start a witch hunt. It's just certain few threads here suddenly attracted a number of very vocal and opinionated posters, seemingly coming out of nowhere and not affected by infidelity in any way.
> 
> All people are free to voice their opinions, but those who never suffered from it are best advised to be extra considerate before jumping the gun.
> 
> ...


I deleted my post because I didn't want people to misunderstand, but I wasn't suggesting that this is a witch hunt at all. Just pointing out that that it is easy to make assumptions about why a person comes to a site like this to try to help or offer insight, when they haven't had infidelity in the relationship. Some of the responders have taken a very simplistic and dangerous view of infidelity, on both sides of the argument, in my opinion. I read the responses that seem to be from people who have no idea about infidelity and cringe also. But we forget sometimes, especially on this thread, that infidelity has its origin with a person who becomes vulnerable to outside emotional and physical contact. They are the vulnerable one, and the spouse should bear no shame or blame. Some, but not all, of these people lack the same degree of executive-level thought control than those who resist infidelity. They respond emotionally to life situations, feeling powerless to avoid the affair that might cross their path. Maybe more people actually experience infidelity for reasons that are just mainly an issue of circumstance. Not many threads really touch on the psychological issues that can make a person weak. On the one hand, I was fortunate that my wife had certain beliefs that led her to admit that she could be weak in certain situations, and the self-loathing led her down a very self-destructive path. I lived in fear of this, studied it, and went through therapy. Fortunately, we were lucky that it didn't go further, but I lived with the threats and anger in her because I was a very closed person in the early years, and could fill the emotional need of her bipolar disorder. What I was saying in an earlier reply was that many people in a marriage that lasts a couple of decades or more will find themselves in this place of fear. It doesn't even come close to the pain of betrayal that you felt, I know, but there might be an occasional thread where they can help. Some of the other threads treat it like people never have to learn to adapt to a weaker spouse, when it is incredibly common in long term marriages, even though the insight that they can offer is limited.

The posts that I tend to reply to are ones where the betrayed spouse might be saying things that suggest a lot of self-doubt, or a feeling of powerlessness. Or, when they are falling prey to some common tactics of the OM or OW in trying to further alienate them from their own spouse. I don't have anything unique to offer, but my childhood and early adult years were just surrounded around the belief system that my dad raised us under. I wasn't completely innocent myself, although I was young and owned up to the people I had hurt.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

donders said:


> There are some extreme cases where it's obvious that the cheating spouse is gone for good, has no interest in returning, is possibly even flaunting their affair, doesn't give a crap about the betrayed spouse, shows no remorse, and yet the advice given is to try to save the marriage by employing various strategies, rather than pointing the betrayed spouse in the direction of mounting an aggressive divorce and protecting their ASSets.


That's just fundamentally not true. In those threads the consensus of advice is typically to take steps to protect your assets, run the 180 to protect yourself, cut them loose, and move on. Sure there will be the occasional poster who is newly betrayed and thinks the cheater should be burned in effigy consequence be damned, but the consensus in lost causes is usually just to move on as painlessly as possible.


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

After d-day, the posters who personally experienced infidelity were the only ones from whom I wanted advice on how to cope. Medical, legal, or psychological advice would've also been appreciated from professionals in those fields. But getting advice or talking to people who had not experienced infidelty often made me hurt more. This was true with my friends too. I even preferred talking to a girlfriend who cheated on her H, rather than those friends who had untainted marriages. I couldn't relate to those who had no experience with infidelity and found myself stifling a "shut the f*€k up" on occasion. Now a year later I'm in a better position mentally to possibly see pros & cons from any poster regardless of their previous experience.

So to all posters, keep in mind the BS is grieving a death those first weeks or months after d-day. The death of their marriage. No matter how helpful the advice might be, hearing from people who's marriage is still untouched by infidelity is painful to hear. Another reminder of something we can no longer claim. As a BS, I'm finding many comments on this particular thread hurtful and belittling. Tread with care and respect, those new to infidelity once thought their marriage was untainted by it too. Odds are many untouched by infidelity on this forum right now will be or have been and just don't know it yet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

donders said:


> There are some extreme cases where it's obvious that the cheating spouse is gone for good, has no interest in returning, is possibly even flaunting their affair, doesn't give a crap about the betrayed spouse, shows no remorse, and yet the advice given is to try to save the marriage by employing various strategies, rather than pointing the betrayed spouse in the direction of mounting an aggressive divorce and protecting their ASSets.


The BS is in a state of shock and simply can not believe that their partner of X years has just vanished in front of them. In the case where the are children . It is no longer just about two people.. it is about the mental and physical long term well being of your shared children. it changes the game totally. 

I think you are misunderstanding [deliberately  ] the aim of most posters on this board. It is to help the BS either accept that there WS has gone for good or to help get them back if there is any real hope of Reconciliation.

If the BS states in their posts that they "Want to save their marriage!!" then there are strategies to help with that, the thing is though, those strategies are almost the same as if you were aggressively pursuing Divorce and protecting assets.

*1. Expose the affair* to the other parties spouse. I think this is fair. Would you like to know that your wife was having an affair? I am also not a fan of revenge exposure.

*2. Split finances.* This is almost always the advice regardless of the desired outcome. This is to protect the assets.

*3. Immediate and hard 180.*

That's about healing. Finding your own centre. For many of us who have been in very long marriages [26 years] this is no mean feat . You are so tied together that that every single part of you needs to be re-evaluated and rebuilt from the ground up. This is going to need to happen regardless of Reconciliation or Divorce. 

*4. No contact*
This is important for both R and D. The BS needs time to regroup and the WS needs time to think about their decision and the real impact it is having on the family. Again .Children in the marriage have a huge impact.

*5. Letting Go*
This is again about helping the BS to move on. This is required for R and D. 

*6. Abuse*
If their is abuse the advice is always to get out. I have not seen a case where a BS has been advised to stay in the case of abuse. 
A male WS on the other hand normally starts with "omg she is so abusive. She didn't ball my socks. I am leaving her"
It is normally a woman WS who has reached the end that has had an affair. the tone of the posts is totally different.

*Reconciliation.*
This is part f the script the WS often comes back wanting to R on their terms. Wants to sweep the A under the rug. I have been here long enough to know what fake R looks like. I have been saved from it by the relentless reality checks by the vets and new people alike. 

The route waked here is to give both the WS and the BS the best possible change of R if that is what they want. Some people see infidelity as a deal breaker. Some don't.
It is a no win game.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Seawolf said:


> Yet, the tales here are so horrific that it is not something I could come back to if it were just a vouyeristic experience. I've learned a lot here. First and foremost is that no matter how good one might believe their marriage is, no couple is immune to the risk of infidelity.
> 
> So yes, I have done some snooping as a result of what I've learned here, and happily it seems all is ok. Interestingly, I have become aware of a guy sniffing around Mrs. Seawolf and to be honest, I don't think she is even aware of his intentions. I may be wrong, and perhaps he's just wanting to be a friend - he used to work for her before a company change - but I know from my reading here to be vigilant. So far, she is all business with his, too casual emails, and I've been proud of what I've seen from her.
> 
> ...


It's gratifying to know that some people are learning from the experiences of those who have been betrayed. Before all this happened, I also might have subscribed to society's current general belief that you must somehow be jealous and/or insecure if you start investigating to see what's going on.

Now I've learned that you have a right and obligation to protect your marriage. It's NOT being jealous or controlling.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

donders said:


> There are some extreme cases where it's obvious that the cheating spouse is gone for good, has no interest in returning, is possibly even flaunting their affair, doesn't give a crap about the betrayed spouse, shows no remorse, and yet the advice given is to try to save the marriage by employing various strategies, rather than pointing the betrayed spouse in the direction of mounting an aggressive divorce and protecting their ASSets.


Actually, if you have been around here for awhile you would know that is not at all true. Couples that seem to have no possible chance rconcile and get back together. Couples that are involved in what seems to be a light EA end up battling to the bitter end. The WS having no regrard for the LS or even many children. (8 is the most I can remember). Almost sll of the couples reconciling have had a form of exposure. What generally happens is that the OM thows the cheating wife under the bus to save his family, friend, job or reputation.

Only one out of five affairs are ever exposed and appx. one third of married men and women have an affair. As for your situation, the way you describe your marriage/divorce, and if I had to bet money, I would bet on infidelity. The thing is, you don't know. But your wife sounds like she had somne reason, in her mind, to villify you. Another possibility is she just could not tolerate pompous people.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

chapparal said:


> Actually, if you have been around here for awhile you would know that is not at all true. Couples that seem to have no possible chance rconcile and get back together. Couples that are involved in what seems to be a light EA end up battling to the bitter end. The WS having no regrard for the LS or even many children. (8 is the most I can remember). Almost sll of the couples reconciling have had a form of exposure. What generally happens is that the OM thows the cheating wife under the bus to save his family, friend, job or reputation.
> 
> Only one out of five affairs are ever exposed and appx. one third of married men and women have an affair. As for your situation, the way you describe your marriage/divorce, and if I had to bet money, I would bet on infidelity. The thing is, you don't know. But your wife sounds like she had somne reason, in her mind, to villify you. *Another possibility is she just could not tolerate pompous people*.


:rofl:


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

You think you have seen it all and then you see CWI fascism!

I am with you guys, unless you can produce photographic evidence that your spouse has slept with someone else you should be run off the CWI board, in fact why stop there? Implement the final solution!


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

johnnycomelately said:


> You think you have seen it all and then you see CWI fascism!
> 
> I am with you guys, unless you can produce photographic evidence that your spouse has slept with someone else you should be run off the CWI board, in fact why stop there? Implement the final solution!


Try that tactic at a women's rape forum and see how far that gets you.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I don't have a problem with people who have not been jilted posting on CWI. I am an Arizonan to the bone, and I believe in free speech. 

I believe ignorant people have the right to say ignorant things so we can all know how ignorant they are

I will spend the rest of my life living on one third of a heart. My wife ripped out two thirds of it, and the problem with such a wound is that it never really heals. Until you have suffered the sting of infidelity, you can never understand the depth of anger and sadness your soul can endure. It changes you. 

I was a happy man once, but my wife stole my smile. I don't think I'll ever get it back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

johnnycomelately said:


> You think you have seen it all and then you see CWI fascism!
> 
> I am with you guys, unless you can produce photographic evidence that your spouse has slept with someone else you should be run off the CWI board, in fact why stop there? Implement the final solution!


You do realize that under Fascism you wouldn't even be allowed to say what you just said.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> You do realize that under Fascism you wouldn't even be allowed to say what you just said.


:iagree:

It would be off to the concentration camp! Or maybe drag you out of your house in the middle of the night, beat you...then send you off to the concentration camp, while your family is thrown into the streets.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> You do realize that under Fascism you wouldn't even be allowed to say what you just said.


You guys do understand sarcasm don't you?


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

lordmayhem said:


> :iagree:
> 
> It would be off to the concentration camp! Or maybe drag you out of your house in the middle of the night, beat you...then send you off to the concentration camp, while your family is thrown into the streets.


Noooo? In Europe we thought they sold sweets to children.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> I don't have a problem with people who have not been jilted posting on CWI. I am an Arizonan to the bone, and I believe in free speech.
> 
> I believe ignorant people have the right to say ignorant things so we can all know how ignorant they are
> 
> ...


Just to clarify, bandit, I "liked" your post because of the "ignorant people posting ignorant things' comment.

As for the smiles... I believe you will get it back one day. I hope so, anyway.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

johnnycomelately said:


> You guys do understand sarcasm don't you?


My sister is fluent in sarcasm...and she is teaching ALL the young girls in our family VERY well!


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Just to clarify, bandit, I "liked" your post because of the "ignorant people posting ignorant things' comment.
> 
> As for the smiles... I believe you will get it back one day. I hope so, anyway.


Right back at ya.....


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> I don't have a problem with people who have not been jilted posting on CWI. I am an Arizonan to the bone, and I believe in free speech.
> 
> I believe ignorant people have the right to say ignorant things so we can all know how ignorant they are
> 
> ...


(((((CTU Hug)))) Maybe we will find our smiles at the same time???

I told you my H says "I miss your smile". Sometimes it pisses me off so bad. Sometimes, it makes me even more sad b/c its like he doesnt truly understand where it went. 

Hang in there Bandit. You'll get it back. You are a strong man.


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

donders said:


> I agree completely with everything above including the advice to divorce them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not always true in the case of INFIDELITY
I was told many times to expose my Hs workplace EA. I didnt do it. The EA turned PA and the OWH exposed to the work place by email. 3 weeks later the A was over and my H and i are now in reconciliation. Of course the exposure wasnt the only thing that ended the A but what it did do was make my H face the reality of what he was doing, and the reality was a million miles away from the fantasy.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

Of course there are arguments for and against every course of action. Wise people will listen to both arguments and make a decision, based on the merit of the argument. We don't know each other, we don't know what the person giving advice has or hasn't experienced, but we can use our mental faculties to* judge the merit of their argument*.

There are people on the CWI board who think there is only one way to respond to infidelity and it is their way. All others should be quiet. 

If your method makes sense people will choose it anyway. If you are confident that your experience makes your advice superior why would you worry about other people expressing their inferior opinion? The superiority of your wisdom will come shining through, right? 

Competition is good. This applies to economic marketplaces as mush as to marketplaces of ideas, such as this board. 

If we truly believe that only one idea has merit why have a forum? Just a static page with the 'correct' response to infidelity would do.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

johnnycomelately said:


> If your method makes sense people will choose it anyway. If you are confident that your experience makes your advice superior why would you worry about other people expressing their inferior opinion? The superiority of your wisdom will come shining through, right?


Because much of the advice is counter-intuitive, and is contrary to what everyone been conditioned with soap operas and romcoms.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

snap said:


> Because much of the advice is counter-intuitive, and is contrary to what everyone been conditioned with soap operas and romcoms.


So your view is they are all soap-watching idiots who don't have the brain-power to see how good your idea is, so you have to silence everyone else for their own good? 

Stalin felt the same way, the result speaks for itself.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

snap said:


> It seems that this forum has lately attracted a bigger than usual number of what I call "spectators": people who haven't been exposed to infidelity, yet hang out and offer (in their opinion good) advice on the subject.
> 
> Now, I understand this is a public forum, we are all free people, everyone has a right for their own perspective, etc. But some of the posters come off as rather judgmental (of both WSs and BSs) with naivete obvious to anyone who ever was affected by infidelity. I must admit it rubs me the wrong way.
> 
> ...


Speaking for myself, I don't need to be cheated on to realize that infidelity is wrong and should not be forgiven. 
Some things are widely known and accepted as morally wrong. Infidelity is one of them.
Plain and simple.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

When I "joined" TAM a few years ago, I saw CWI as more of a support site. I was all wrapped up in "my" misery of my wife's affairs. 

That has changed...

I have no problem with the "Spectators". They have stopped by here for a reason. Years ago, I wish I had found this place or even considered looking for one. I was in denial... my wife of 25 years would never do this to me and my family. 

LordMH said it exactly "I WISH I had gone online and found a support forum like this one, so I could listen to others who have been through this. I learned that I confronted too early. It would have saved me the agony of being continually lied to. I didn't know about the slippery slope, or even about EAs and PAs. I didn't know about the difference between remorse and regret. I didn't know about rug sweeping. I didn't know about VARs or keyloggers. I didn't know about the red flags of affairs. If I had just gone on the internet and gotten the advice of those who had been through this before me, I could have taken the appropriate measures and possibly have nipped this in the bud."


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

johnnycomelately said:


> So your view is they are all soap-watching idiots who don't have the brain-power to see how good your idea is, so you have to silence everyone else for their own good?


Arguing the strawman here, fellow. I have the same brainpower before and after infidelity, but quite a different view on it now.

How do you think this counter-intuitive advice emerges? Is it a mere coincidence that people who've been through it tend to arrive to same conclusions w.r.t. dealing with infidelity? If the "common knowledge" advice was good enough in practice, why would we have this conversation you think?

I lurked here and read what people suggest, but thought it's too extreme and my case is special. I tried all the good things that we taught to believe are right responses, and they didn't work. Finally, tried the advice given here, and it helped.

What you arguing against is a statistical average of people's experience who've been through the infidelity and dealt with the effects.



> Stalin felt the same way, the result speaks for itself.


Ad-hominem. For someone citing Kant you're frankly full of it.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

snap said:


> Arguing the strawman here, fellow. I have the same brainpower before and after infidelity, but quite a different view on it now.
> 
> How do you think this counter-intuitive advice emerges? Is it a mere coincidence that people who've been through it tend to arrive to same conclusions w.r.t. dealing with infidelity? If the "common knowledge" advice was good enough in practice, why would we have this conversation you think?
> 
> ...


I am not arguing with your advice, I agree with it. If you look back I am the first one to argue for the orthodox moves, exposure, 180 etc .

I am arguing with your idea that no-one else has the right to comment. 

For someone who thinks that people are too stupid to understand what is good for them it is quite ironic to accuse me of an ad hominem attack. I am attacking an idea, not the man.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

johnnycomelately said:


> So your view is they are all soap-watching idiots who don't have the brain-power to see how good your idea is, so you have to silence everyone else for their own good?
> 
> Stalin felt the same way, the result speaks for itself.


Wow! Yesterday Fascism. And today Stalin. Methinks you're on the wrong board. (And don't give me that crap about sarcasm. Once, yeah. But twice? Something else is going on with you.)


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

johnnycomelately said:


> For someone who thinks that people are too stupid to understand what is good for them it is quite ironic to accuse me of an ad hominem attack. I am attacking an idea, not the man.


By drawing parallels between my hypothetical motivations and Stalin? Uhm, sure.

if you look back I never called anyone stupid, idiot or otherwise assessed mental capabilities of forum members. This however is something you verbalize in your every other post.

If you went as far as reading my original post, perhaps you'd see that I merely asked spectators to be considerate in their postings, as some of them come off quite offensive without anything to back their point up.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> Wow! Yesterday Fascism. And today Stalin. Methinks you're on the wrong board. (And don't give me that crap about sarcasm. Once, yeah. But twice? Something else is going on with you.)


Are you accusing me of having a sense of history? So your fascism not only extends to people who disagree with you but also those who look for examples from history to make a point?

Why don't you guys lay out the rules for who can post here, what they can say and how so that we all know where we stand?


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Again the OP's point being made for him....



lovelygirl said:


> Speaking for myself, I don't need to be cheated on to realize that infidelity is wrong and should not be forgiven.


 While this MAY be true for you, you don't know. Additionally there are many here who once they did know found that their spouse's infidelity should indeed be forgiven. On top of that, you just implied, not very discreetly, that you are morally superior to both those who cheated and were forgiven and to those who forgave - you most likely are not. 




lovelygirl said:


> Some things are widely known and accepted as morally wrong. Infidelity is one of them.


. This is true, but it does not mean that it should categorically not be forgiven. 




lovelygirl said:


> Plain and simple.


Nope nothing about infidelity is plain and it's damn sure not simple.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

johnnycomelately said:


> Are you accusing me of having a sense of history? So your fascism not only extends to people who disagree with you but also those who look for examples from history to make a point?
> 
> Why don't you guys lay out the rules for who can post here, what they can say and how so that we all know where we stand?


You're projecting.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> You're projecting.


Then help me understand your point. Why am I on the wrong board? Why am I talking crap?



Count of Monte Cristo said:


> Wow! Yesterday Fascism. And today Stalin. Methinks you're on the wrong board. (And don't give me that crap about sarcasm. Once, yeah. But twice? Something else is going on with you.)


I don't understand.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

johnnycomelately said:


> Then help me understand your point. Why am I on the wrong board? Why am I talking crap?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't understand.


You are the one accusing people of being Fascists and Stalinists. That is a bit extreme. Yesterday, you said that you were being sarcastic but today you make a similar comment.

You might disagree with what others are saying but name calling will get you nowhere.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> You are the one accusing people of being Fascists and Stalinists. That is a bit extreme. Yesterday, you said that you were being sarcastic but today you make a similar comment.
> 
> You might disagree with what others are saying but name calling will get you nowhere.



I haven't called anyone any names, my argument is with the idea. I never name-call. I am trying to make a point and you are telling me I don't belong on this board. 

I think that the idea that 'spectators' don't have the right to comment is fascist. In a minor sense obviously, but the *idea* is a bad one. We all have the right to comment and most have something of value to say. 

To ignore/exclude people because they haven't had exactly the same experience as you is a bad idea and I will continue to attack it *(the idea)*.

No name-calling, just doing my best to make my point.

The fact that you have started to attack me, instead of my idea, indicates that you have no answer to my point.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

johnnycomelately said:


> Are you accusing me of having a sense of history? So your fascism not only extends to people who disagree with you but also those who look for examples from history to make a point?
> 
> Why don't you guys lay out the rules for who can post here, what they can say and how so that we all know where we stand?


So you lied about the sarcasm? You really are accusing people of having facist beliefs. 

To accuse people of having facist, and now stalinist beliefs is quite frankly *over the top and insulting*. Yet you are the one whining and crying about being attacked?


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

lordmayhem said:


> So you lied about the sarcasm? You really are accusing people of having facist beliefs.


No, I ironically said that I had fascist beliefs to try and make my point that excluding people and denying them the right to speak is a fascist idea.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

johnnycomelately said:


> No, I ironically said that I had fascist beliefs to try and make my point that excluding people and denying them the right to speak is a fascist idea.


That's over the top and insulting and you know it.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

lordmayhem said:


> To accuse people of having facist, and now stalinist beliefs is quite frankly *over the top and insulting*. Yet you are the one whining and crying about being attacked?


It is over the top, I admit that, but it makes a valid point.

No whining, no crying, just making my point that attacking me is a sign that you have no argument against my point.

I love being attacked. It stimulates debate.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

lordmayhem said:


> That's over the top and insulting and you know it.


No insult. Just a dislike of an idea. But keep trying.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

johnnycomelately said:


> It is over the top, I admit that, but it makes a valid point.
> 
> No whining, no crying, just making my point that attacking me is a sign that you have no argument against my point.
> 
> I love being attacked. It stimulates debate.


So what you did was post flame bait in order to get a response. Now that is the definition of trolling.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

lordmayhem said:


> So what you did was post flame bait in order to get a response. Now that is the definition of trolling.


No trolling because I didn't flame anyone and my intention is to make a point which I feel is right and valid.

Why are you so desperate to prove that I am a troll or that I am insulting someone? I have been on this site for years, I have plenty of likes - I am no troll. 

Can't someone disagree with you without you trying to get them banned? Why don't you address the point rather than attack me?


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## Sweet Tea (May 4, 2012)

johnnycomelately said:


> No trolling because I didn't flame anyone and my intention is to make a point which I feel is right and valid.
> 
> Why are you so desperate to prove that I am a troll or that I am insulting someone? I have been on this site for years, I have plenty of likes I am no troll.
> 
> Can't someone disagree with you without you trying to get them banned? Why don't you address the point rather than attack me?


Oh for the love of God and everything that is holy!

No one told you NOT to post. All that was asked was some sensitivity when doing so. At this point you are arguing just to argue


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

Sweet Tea said:


> Oh for the love of God and everything that is holy!
> 
> No one told you NOT to post. All that was asked was some sensitivity when doing so. At this point you are arguing just to argue


Sorry to make you mad sweet tea, I will shut up and go away now.


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## Sweet Tea (May 4, 2012)

johnnycomelately said:


> Sorry to make you mad sweet tea, I will shut up and go away now.


You don't have to do that, but my goodness Johnny, I just don't understand the point of all this nonsense :scratchhead:


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

I have a question for those who have not experienced infidelity yet feel very qualified to post here, why don't you go post to a women's rape forum and set them straight when they give another rape victim "bad advice"?


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