# Women and sexuality



## Janie (Apr 10, 2010)

I'm going a bit out on a limb here with a concept that is still fuzzy to me, so bear with me.

I read much about men lamenting their lack of sex life in their marriages. Wife not interested, involved, initiating, etc.

One thing I have not heard anything about is women's feelings about the sex act itself. 

Is it possible for a girl to grow into a woman without being completely confused about her sexuality?

*Good girls don't do it.
*It's sinful and dirty.
*Boys only want one thing and it's up to us to stop it.
*Lessons learned from 'giving it up' and him moving on.
*Women's bodies should look like what all forms of media depict.
*Britney et al with overt sexuality on display.
*Not to mention the statistics regarding molestation, rape, etc.

All these conflicting messages swirling about from pre-teen on -- what does a girl conclude? And how does she feel about her sexuality? And how does she feel about the act itself? How is it possible for a girl/woman to feel confident with her body and her sexuality? 

For me - the combination of my sexual peak in my 30's and watching every episode of Sex and the City - and I finally became comfortable with my sexuality. In fact, I saw the power in it and embraced it. But, until then - I loathed 'it' and the men who insisted on having it. I honestly wished sex didn't exist. Without sex, it seemed relationship problems would hardly exist. 

Men on these forums insist that 'man-up' is the best way to have a satisfying sex life with a partner. And, I agree (for the most part), IF the woman is comfortable with her sexuality.

And, what if she is not? What is the solution in that case? How does a woman get past the idea that sex is a dirty filthy thing and men are dogs sniffing around hoping to get a piece of it?


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

For a woman to feel comfortable as a sexual being, I think she needs to 1) feel that she is attractive and 2) feel that it is acceptable being sexy. The fist part takes a partner's reassurance and expression of "manly desire.". I think the second may start with her parrents and then from her peers later in life. If her parents gave her the same dissevice that s typical of the last several generations, sex will be bad and dirty for the first part of her life. In order to feel comfortable, she then needs to surround herself with sexually confident female peers to show her it is OK and fun. I don't think a spouse, or a man in general can give a woman that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

I have never felt "uncomfortable" with my sexuality as such.

I have been all too aware of the dynamic and pressures upon women with regard to good girls and men only being after one thing scenarios. It did not figure in my life, I never felt I was doing things I "shouldn't" as I was quite self-assured and confident in myself.

As I have gotten a little older however, my feelings have changed. Probably life experience. I definitely feel more conscious about my body (post-children) and feel strongly now that sex is a great thing but for me belongs within a committed relationship.

I have also become more aware of the dynamic sex plays within a relationship and the notion that men expect/would prefer it if women's bodies were "presented" in certain ways (thinking a lot about personal grooming here) and for women to partake in a variety of different activities. Also the notion that some men have of women being able to get there in any way/position (not all men I should add.) My personal opinion on this is that porn plays a part in expectations that might not otherwise come to the fore. All this has made me actually feel more pressure, the more I know now than when I was younger, and at times can make me extremely aware of just how sexually driven men are which is something I have also become more aware of from reading things on here.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

I agree that one of the unfortunate realities of porn is that it can create a false sense of how things really work for women as far as "getting there." This is generally overcome with real life experience. 

Men have always been very sexually driven though. I think that this genetic reality has been greatly repressed in society and makes life very difficult for men.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Great post. 

Both men and women have challenges managing "bodies" not designed for modern civilization. Men need to learn how to constructively channel all that "hard wired" aggression and anger - lest they end up adding to those stats on violence/sexual violence. The irony is that the men who "fully" embrace this message about being "civilized" completely castrate themselves behaviorally and often end up "bullied" by their partners. 

Women have to learn to accept that sex - with a mature male - is core to a healthy relationship. Neither of these "adjustments" is easy. They are both part of growing up. 

Any guy who "mans up" and realizes he is with a partner who is not sexually comfortable and has no interest in making the effort to be a good partner - needs to make a hard decision. I will say this though - the board is FULL of stories of women who just couldn't possibly get through all the issues / distractions / etc. surrounding sex until that great guy they were with said "we are done" and suddenly she was able to find a way to be a great sexual partner. 

As for whether or not she "likes it" - well I tend to look at this backwards. At that point the frequent act of sex encourages / almost forces a more honest conversation about likes/dislikes and turn ons/turn offs. 




Janie said:


> I'm going a bit out on a limb here with a concept that is still fuzzy to me, so bear with me.
> 
> I read much about men lamenting their lack of sex life in their marriages. Wife not interested, involved, initiating, etc.
> 
> ...


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## Janie (Apr 10, 2010)

hubby said:


> 2) feel that it is acceptable being sexy.
> 
> That is the issue I'm referring to. Women can have many things to get past in that area. And, the least of them being that we have shouldered the burden of defending our sexuality from aggressive would-be poachers. And, what would our subconscious conclusion to that become? It is easy to feel disdain toward men who can't control and overemphasize their urges - so much so that it becomes the largest relationship hurdle to resolve. And, in turn, feeling like an object rather than a valuable person.
> 
> ...


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Janie said:


> *Good girls don't do it.
> 
> After we are married, we are not girls anymore, we are women. What is a good woman? What don't good women do? Good women don't cheat, good women don't deprive their husbands' physical needs. Good women look after the household.
> 
> ...


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Amen Janie. Seems like you have a good concept of both sides. Ever consider starting a blog 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

>>Even a repressed female can feel lust. Many relationships start out hot & heavy, then cool over time. (Without that, would men ever commit?) That's when the contempt can set in. 'He's hounding me for it all the time', 'Aren't there more important things in life?' - all the while not realizing it is a fundamental need, not a pathetic weakness...

And as life issues press in from all sides - financial, pregnancy, children, careers, etc -- she can't understand why this is still such a big issue.<<

Well, because it's his #1 need.

And very few men get married without the expectation of more frequent sex with the woman they've chosen - above all others.

So, the response to seeing him as "pathetic"?

She fitness tests him. And he turns into Mr. Nice Guy.

She confirms he's pathetic... and away we go!


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

Janie said:


> That is excellent, but I suspect it's not the norm.


No I suspect not. I am fairly sure that it is a lot to do with how my mum approached discussing sex when I was younger. She was quite open that when I got my first steady boyfriend, she felt I should be playing the field rather than being tied down. She has been quite open to me and my sister that she was engaged twice before meeting my dad, and has always promoted the spirit of female self-confidence in that sense, not being afraid of who you are and embracing that.



hubby said:


> Men have always been very sexually driven though. I think that this genetic reality has been greatly repressed in society and makes life very difficult for men.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree. I think the fundamental need does get lost somewhere, a lot. I do think a lot of women do not realise what a man's sexuality means to him and to the relationship dynamic. It is easy to feel objectified and not want to put it out there in case it seems like you are inviting solely that kind of attention without the respect and time you deserve.

My OH commented the other day on a dress I was wearing when I went to pick up the kids from school. He could not believe I "went out dressing like that" (it was slightly tongue-in-cheek I should say!) knowing there were loads of workmen on the way to school. My dress was pretty and he'd say low-cut, and to him I was walking out of the door showing my boobs to all and sundry. To me I was wearing a favourite dress that I feel good in, and I am not naive but the thought never crossed my mind that I was giving the workmen a treat


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Janie,
I think you have hit on a point worth addressing. There are several different paths to an "overtly" sexually broken relationship. The first is that one of the partners disliked sex from the start. It isn't fair to demonize females on this point. There are MANY women who have had the exact same experience with male partners who deceived them on this point. There is a very standard pattern to "this" type relationship and it is striking how easy it is to spot. The pattern basically goes like this: As the level of commitment by the HD partner rises and the degree of relationship stability increases, the LD partner steadily ramps down the sex. Simplest example:
1. Dating: Sex is great
2. Engagement: Sex decreases 
3. Marriage: Decreases further
4. First child: Decreases further
5. Last child: Sexless marriage

These LD partners NEVER liked sex. It was purely a means to an end. Very nasty stuff for the HD partner who generally has no idea what the hell is happening because the LD partner gives them a never ending list of totally untrue, but sort of plausible excuses. 

The second path to an overtly broken sexual relationship is the one Janie mentioned. The LD partner is by definition more apt to have their "desire" disrupted by life. When THAT happens a terribly toxic spiral can begin. The HD partner keeps initiating and the LD partner keeps rejecting. Even ignorning fitness tests - the steady rejection causes the HD partner to go into "I will do anything" mode. Which reinforces this bad dynamic as it: turns their LD partner OFF while at the same time tempting their LD partner to use/abuse this new found "POWER". VERY ugly stuff. 








Janie said:


> hubby said:
> 
> 
> > 2) feel that it is acceptable being sexy.
> ...


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Good post Mem. 

So the simple solution to both scenarios...and it has been mentioned several times before but it WORKS.

Go back to stage one of the relationship and DATE each other. Yes, it take a lot of effort, but I think it is in the control of the HD partner to make it happen. Both partners need to put each other first, before all other distractions or "excuses" of life. If you can ignite that feeling of first love in the LD partner again, good sex will follow.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

I like a lot of the stuff I've seen on this thread. And while a lot of posters have had good insights, they've missed the core of the problem: our culture has demonized the idea of a sexually active woman in it's religion and its mythology. There ARE NO positive words for a sexually-active woman in the English language, and the moral barrier presented by the idea of the "bad girl" is so powerful in so many women's lives that they let it guide their sexuality.

Maybe that was okay in the agricultural or industrial age. In the post-industrial age, things have changed dramatically. Birth control, female financial empowerment, and the loss of the male breadwinner, plus a highly transient population and the easy availability of sex outside of a relationship have changed the game board profoundly, and a lot of women are still playing under the old rules. Add to that religious issues, archaic social issues about "reputation", and the whirl of mixed messages from all fronts, I think it's safe to say the OP's point can be extended even further: the vast majority of women in America are heavily conflicted about their sexuality, and only a tiny minority ever achieve a harmonious relationship with both their body and their partner. In essence, we encourage our little girls to have messed-up ideas about sex and then we release them into the wild to wreck destruction on their own self-esteem and that of the men they partner with.

It's sad, really.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Applause Ian. I could not agree more. 

Now if we can just get Oprah to say that...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

thats why shows like sex in the city, housewives of (various cities), desperate housewives are so popular. they depict sexually strong women that is a curiosity to both men and women. unforyunately for some, porn does the same, depicts women who arent afraid to get busy and be uninhibited. its an attractive change of pace in todays mostly sexually oppressed society


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> I like a lot of the stuff I've seen on this thread. And while a lot of posters have had good insights, they've missed the core of the problem: our culture has demonized the idea of a sexually active woman in it's religion and its mythology. There ARE NO positive words for a sexually-active woman in the English language, and the moral barrier presented by the idea of the "bad girl" is so powerful in so many women's lives that they let it guide their sexuality.
> 
> Maybe that was okay in the agricultural or industrial age. In the post-industrial age, things have changed dramatically. Birth control, female financial empowerment, and the loss of the male breadwinner, plus a highly transient population and the easy availability of sex outside of a relationship have changed the game board profoundly, and a lot of women are still playing under the old rules. Add to that religious issues, archaic social issues about "reputation", and the whirl of mixed messages from all fronts, I think it's safe to say the OP's point can be extended even further: the vast majority of women in America are heavily conflicted about their sexuality, and only a tiny minority ever achieve a harmonious relationship with both their body and their partner. In essence, we encourage our little girls to have messed-up ideas about sex and then we release them into the wild to wreck destruction on their own self-esteem and that of the men they partner with.
> 
> It's sad, really.


This is confusing me! From what I have read about western society, casual sex is everywhere. Sex is involved with two or more, so what is going on? Are there a lot of good women? If there are a lot of virtue women, then there shouldn't be so much casual sex going on!

And in the bedroom, it is the husband's job to tell the wife sex is not dirty, sex is wonderful, sex is sacred, she has a great body, she makes him very happy in bed. Who knows what is happening in the bedroom. I see a couple walk on the street, I don't know what is going on in their sex life. And who cares what other people think of me, I am not humiliating myself in public, I am having sex with my husband, I scream, I moan, I move my body, who knows, only my husband knows! 

What is dirty? I am legally married, I am having sex with my husband, doesn't the law say this is legal? If people think sex with their married husbands is dirty, I find it absurd!


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> I like a lot of the stuff I've seen on this thread. And while a lot of posters have had good insights, they've missed the core of the problem: our culture has demonized the idea of a sexually active woman in it's religion and its mythology. There ARE NO positive words for a sexually-active woman in the English language, and the moral barrier presented by the idea of the "bad girl" is so powerful in so many women's lives that they let it guide their sexuality.
> 
> Maybe that was okay in the agricultural or industrial age. In the post-industrial age, things have changed dramatically. Birth control, female financial empowerment, and the loss of the male breadwinner, plus a highly transient population and the easy availability of sex outside of a relationship have changed the game board profoundly, and a lot of women are still playing under the old rules. Add to that religious issues, archaic social issues about "reputation", and the whirl of mixed messages from all fronts, I think it's safe to say the OP's point can be extended even further: the vast majority of women in America are heavily conflicted about their sexuality, and only a tiny minority ever achieve a harmonious relationship with both their body and their partner. In essence, we encourage our little girls to have messed-up ideas about sex and then we release them into the wild to wreck destruction on their own self-esteem and that of the men they partner with.
> 
> It's sad, really.


Who is perpetuating this? Not trying to sound combative but I hear it time and time again that it is the men who call out women for having multiple partners. How many of you would be okay with your wife having had more partners than you? How many of you would consider a girl you had sex with on the first date as relationship material? How many of you think a women who seeks out many partners to be a **** while her male counterpart is a stud? I think alot of women grow up knowing this is how they will be judged and therefore look at sex and their sexuality with shame. I don't think the same can be said for men. Men are taught that their sexuality is their God given right. Embrace it, enjoy it. Women sadly are not taught the same thing. Add in what Janie said about all the images surrounding women of what they are supposed to look like, act like, smell like, dress like and you get some very very sexually insecure women. Not sure what the solution is.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Janie said:


> I suspect most women have no idea what sexual intimacy means for a man. They can't understand it is a basic need and a necessity in marriage for men, they think of it as a pathetic weakness of a mammal who can't control their urges. Without a new understanding of male sexuality, they will not even begin to see the power associated with female sexuality. Or the energy created when male & female sexuality are attuned to each other.


 So true. There was indeed blinders over my understanding for far too long, I am almost ashamed it took so long for me to wake up. For the life of me, I can not understand where my head was at, feeling as I do NOW. 

Thank God for Mid Life crises I suppose. Between some overactive hormones that took me by surprise, I had an overwhelming thirst for knowledge on SEX, I was devouring books left & right, I literally cried while reading "Passionate Marraige" explaining what "making love" means to a man. I suddenly realized I was NOT fullfilling my dear husband as he needed or wanted all of these busy years, I did not make myself available enough, sleeping with the babies, etc.

I never looked at him as a Pathetic mammel though cause , in our marriage, he rarely pushed. He was accually TOO respectful. 

Let me just say, us women are rarely satisfied. Most complain because the husband is being too aggressive with his urges , to the point of feeling "used", all he wants is SEX, and this turns the wife off & she wants to run. 

Then there is me - when I learned my husband wanted all those years -MUCH MORE than he got, I was MAD at him for not going after me more!!!! Asking him what in the world was wrong with him -that he wasn't more selfish & aggressive in pursuing his needs & letting me know. I almost resented that, feeling he denied me too. 

So it seems they are damned if they do pursue and possibly damned if they don't ! I think it would be rather interesting if he acted like those other animalistic men. In my mind, I just felt MAYBE that would have helped ME come out of my sexual shell earlier in my marriage. But maybe not considering what other women are saying, as it pushed them away. We all have such different stories. 

POOR MEN - they have a tightrope to walk with some of us !

My husband admits, because of Church teachings, he believes he was a little repressed as well. So it can happen to men too. 




Janie said:


> If she feels contempt for him because of his desire, either she doesn't love him or she doesn't understand why it's important. Open conversations, reading books or forums, can work together to illuminate this for a female and could change the entire situation! Instead of feeling contempt, she can then find that she wants to please him sexually and this can unlock her repressed sexuality.


 I didn't understand why it was important back then. Let us all teach our daughters well. Oh how utterly TRUE this is ... when you find you WANT to please the one you love, knowing what it does for them emotionally, spiritually, how it enhances your marriage, your connection, your communication, your vulnerability to each other, Oh BABY ! Ain't nothing more powerful or beautiful in this world ! I live to pleasure these days. After 2 years of fully coming into this undertanding -of my own sexuality and what it means to him (and myself). I still feel like a little kind in the candy store when we are getting ready to be intimate. And when the highlight of the day is over, the flirting is ongoing. Isn't this truly what keeps us young !? 




Janie said:


> Even a repressed female can feel lust. Many relationships start out hot & heavy, then cool over time. (Without that, would men ever commit?) That's when the contempt can set in. 'He's hounding me for it all the time', 'Aren't there more important things in life?' - all the while not realizing it is a fundamental need, not a pathetic weakness...
> 
> And as life issues press in from all sides - financial, pregnancy, children, careers, etc -- she can't understand why this is still such a big issue.


 I was represssed for a long long time because of my beliefs. But I always had LUST, it came upon me at least once a week, I had stirrings down there. But used to feel bad about it -when I masterbated, then dating, felt dirty about touching each other, but it felt so heavenly, we got lost it it, our minds might have felt bad (afterwards) but our bodies had no desire to stop!! Talk about conflict ! And we knew it was LUST, forbidden as the Bible speaks, straight from the evil one. Listened to the warnings in Church every week in the pews about remaining pure before God. What can you do with that?? 

If there is anything in my life I regret the most --it was this pathetic mindset. We should have been embracing these sexual stirrings, celebrating them for what they was -enjoying our sexuality instead of feeling GOD is displeased with me/us at every turn. (We even waited for intrecourse for goodness sakes). These feelings followed me straight into my marraige. Now I say LUST is wonderful , give me more ! So long as it is for your spouse. 

Too many years with the lights, out , embarrased of my body (the flesh), oral sex seemed dirty- I used to push him away, lingerie was too stripper like. I just didn't occupy my time thinking about sex much, heard more about it in Church in a negative way. Oh the wasted years. 

Me & my husbands stories are all backwards, we were not as hot & heavy in the beginning as we are NOW in midlife. We are coming into our YOUTH now. I do blame most of this on Repressed sexuality though. A truly fasinating subject, more books need written on this very subject. 

Thank you Janie for starting such a thread !


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

greenpearl said:


> This is confusing me! From what I have read about western society, casual sex is everywhere. Sex is involved with two or more, so what is going on? Are there a lot of good women? If there are a lot of virtue women, then there shouldn't be so much casual sex going on!


Not so sure about more casual sex happening here. Granted, there are you Sex and the City types of women but I think that is not really the norm. Religion plays a huge role in womens sexuality here. There is an entire movement here called "Purity rings" where the girl pledges to her Father (creepy) that she will remain a virgin until marriage. Abstinence education is taking our schools by storm and the subtle undercurrent in these programs is that "good girls don't have sex before marriage". This message is not directed at boys. What does this teach our girls about their sexuality? It teaches them that they need to repress it and lock it away. I have no issue with remaining abstinent until marriage if that is her choice but what is really happening here is shaming the girl in to this decision. Birth control is another subtle form of shaming girls. Where I live a girl cannot get birth control pills under the age of 17 without her parents written consent. Boys? They can buy condoms at any store, no questions asked. A boy can even go to their doctor/clinic/hospital if they contracted some form of VD and a shot will be administered, no parental contact needed. If a girl however goes to the same facilities for HPV, unless she is over 17, the parents are notified. Why? Because it is nothing more than "[email protected] shaming". That's how a sexually active girl is viewed in many parts of this country. So how in the world will she grow up with a healthy sexual image? She won't.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Not so sure about more casual sex happening here. Granted, there are you Sex and the City types of women but I think that is not really the norm. Religion plays a huge role in womens sexuality here. There is an entire movement here called "Purity rings" where the girl pledges to her Father (creepy) that she will remain a virgin until marriage. Abstinence education is taking our schools by storm and the subtle undercurrent in these programs is that "good girls don't have sex before marriage". This message is not directed at boys. What does this teach our girls about their sexuality? It teaches them that they need to repress it and lock it away. I have no issue with remaining abstinent until marriage if that is her choice but what is really happening here is shaming the girl in to this decision. Birth control is another subtle form of shaming girls. Where I live a girl cannot get birth control pills under the age of 17 without her parents written consent. Boys? They can buy condoms at any store, no questions asked. A boy can even go to their doctor/clinic/hospital if they contracted some form of VD and a shot will be administered, no parental contact needed. If a girl however goes to the same facilities for HPV, unless she is over 17, the parents are notified. Why? Because it is nothing more than "[email protected] shaming". That's how a sexually active girl is viewed in many parts of this country. So how in the world will she grow up with a healthy sexual image? She won't.


This society is complicated. If they want to protect girls, then they should teach boys not to deflower them until they are married. If women are suppressed, men are freed, how can there be a balance?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Brennan said:


> There is an entire movement here called "Purity rings" where the girl pledges to her Father (creepy) that she will remain a virgin until marriage. Abstinence education is taking our schools by storm and the subtle undercurrent in these programs is that "good girls don't have sex before marriage". This message is not directed at boys.


Is this different from the *Silver Ring THing Movement*? They offer purity rings there also, visiting churchs all over , I think other countries may be getting involved now. They definitely advocate for the boys to have the SAME purity. Me & husband went along with the youth group to view one of their presentations. 
2 of my sons have chosen to wear these purity rings. 

I did a thread on this very subject (Link for this movement in it) -I feel they go too far, setting the kids up for a sexual fall. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/family...r-silver-ring-thing-purity-ring-movement.html


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

greenpearl said:


> This society is complicated. If they want to protect girls, then they should teach boys not to deflower them until they are married. If women are suppressed, men are freed, how can there be a balance?


There can't be. That is what I posted about earlier. If a woman has sex too early, she is viewed as easy. A guy? A stud. I asked some questions of men that I have yet to get an answer to but it in essence was 1. would you consider a woman who has sex on the first date to be relationship material? 2. Would you marry a woman who had more sexual partners than you? My guess is no to both those questions yet for a man, it would be perfectly acceptable for him to have sex on the first date (he would be high fived by his buddies) and men have multiple sex partners prior to marriage and it is considered his right and not something of shame. Double standard to say the very least and it ends up hurting girls/women with regards to how they feel about sex and their bodies.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Is this different from the *Silver Ring THing Movement*? They offer purity rings there also, visiting churchs all over , I think other countries may be getting involved now. They definitely advocate for the boys to have the SAME purity. Me & husband went along with the youth group to view one of their presentations.
> 2 of my sons have chosen to wear these purity rings.
> 
> I did a thread on this very subject (Link for this movement in it) -I feel they go too far, setting the kids up for a sexual fall.
> ...


Here it is just for girls and they pledge their virginity to their fathers. Beyond creepy in my opinion. Cannot even imagine what sex would be like for the first time for a girl who pledged her virginity to her FATHER! Talk about a brain explosion.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Brennan said:


> There can't be. That is what I posted about earlier. If a woman has sex too early, she is viewed as easy. A guy? A stud. I asked some questions of men that I have yet to get an answer to but it in essence was 1. would you consider a woman who has sex on the first date to be relationship material? 2. Would you marry a woman who had more sexual partners than you? My guess is no to both those questions yet for a man, it would be perfectly acceptable for him to have sex on the first date (he would be high fived by his buddies) and men have multiple sex partners prior to marriage and it is considered his right and not something of shame. Double standard to say the very least and it ends up hurting girls/women with regards to how they feel about sex and their bodies.


You are right! 

Most men won't consider marrying a girl if she lets him have sex the first date. In China, men divorce their wives if they are not virgins! It is absurd. I am sure those men have deflowered other girls and dumped them, but they want their wives to be virgins. How can that be? They can't stand the thinking that their wives had been deflowered by other men! 

I have said this before, it is men who are doing the teaching, and it is men who are suffering. Because men want more sex than women! They are eating the bitter fruit they themselves planted!


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

I think the best thing we can teach our children, and in turn society, is that they need to respect others and demand to be respected. How do we teach them that, we show them through example with our spouses. If we respect each other, including our REAL sexual needs/desires, then we grow to be healthy and confident humans.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Brennan said:


> Here it is just for girls and they pledge their virginity to their fathers. Beyond creepy in my opinion. Cannot even imagine what sex would be like for the first time for a girl who pledged her virginity to her FATHER! Talk about a brain explosion.


I think that pledging virginity just sets up teenagers to lie to their parents. It is so much unfair pressure.

I am sure the pledgers, at least most of them, intend to honor it.

However, teens ability to control their impulses is not fully developed yet. In fact, the part of the brain that controls impulsive behavior is not baked in to adult levels until the early 20s.

So when put in an exciting situation and maybe add in booze?

Teens end up going further than they pledged to daddy.

Then what does daddy do when he finds out?

It's a failed attempt to prevent sexual behavior. Too much judgment involved.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

hubby said:


> I think the best thing we can teach our children, and in turn society, is that they need to respect others and demand to be respected. How do we teach them that, we show them through example with our spouses. If we respect each other, including our REAL sexual needs/desires, then we grow to be healthy and confident humans.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is a very healthy attitude! We are teaching our sons exactly that. Respect yourself and respect your partner. Don't do anything you don't want to do and don't pressure anybody else. 
Sadly, that isn't what alot of children are being taught.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

michzz said:


> I think that pledging virginity just sets up teenagers to lie to their parents. It is so much unfair pressure.
> 
> I am sure the pledgers, at least most of them, intend to honor it.
> 
> ...


Exactly! Look, I have zero issue with somebody who on their own accord decides to remain a virgin until marriage. I am totally fine with that. What I am not fine with are these church directed initiatives that recruits fathers to dictate their daughters sexuality. Can you imagine making a pledge at say 13 and really meaning it but then fast forward to 17 and the girl is ashamed that she has sexual feelings and eventually acts on them? She has to look her father in the eye knowing she broke a promise, whether he knows she did or not. I have to imagine it is detrimental to her self image and her future views about sexuality. Why is this acceptable to do this to young girls? Can you imagine the reverse? A bunch of mothers gang up on their sons and make them take an oath and pledge their virginity to their mothers? Gee, he wouldn't be screwed up sexually in the future, now would he? :scratchhead:
I agree with what HUBBY said in the earlier post. Teach your children to respect themselves and let the chips fall where they may. I have made sure to do that with our boys and the return has been one of openness and honesty not shame and humiliation.


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## Janie (Apr 10, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> the steady rejection causes the HD partner to go into "I will do anything" mode. Which reinforces this bad dynamic as it: turns their LD partner OFF while at the same time tempting their LD partner to use/abuse this new found "POWER". VERY ugly stuff.


It is possible to abuse the 'power' created and is indeed a very ugly situation, but I'm more focused on the contempt women feel for male sexuality. Since the LD partner controls the frequency of sex, she will strike a balance - once a week, twice a month, etc - just enough to keep him off her back. The reason for the contempt is:

1. She feels conflicted about her own sexuality from mixed messages growing up and her own bad experiences.
2. She, as a married woman, does not understand male sexuality.



hubby said:


> Go back to stage one of the relationship and DATE each other. Yes, it take a lot of effort, but I think it is in the control of the HD partner to make it happen. Both partners need to put each other first, before all other distractions or "excuses" of life. If you can ignite that feeling of first love in the LD partner again, good sex will follow.


LOVE this idea! To go back to the feelings of first love (without all the nervousness of infatuation) opens hearts and allows for free communication - providing the perfect scenario for each person to further understand themselves and their partner.



IanIronwood said:


> Maybe that was okay in the agricultural or industrial age. In the post-industrial age, things have changed dramatically. Birth control, female financial empowerment, and the loss of the male breadwinner, plus a highly transient population and the easy availability of sex outside of a relationship have changed the game board profoundly, and a lot of women are still playing under the old rules. Add to that religious issues, archaic social issues about "reputation", and the whirl of mixed messages from all fronts


Archaic?
Old rules?

Are you or have you ever been the parent of a teenage daughter?

I am on my 3rd and have been a teenage daughter myself, and I can tell you it doesn't feel like old rules when your daughter is dressed to go out on a date! The fear involved with sending her out the door - we get to the point where we can actually see the boys as predators! This fear makes it difficult for us to teach them a healthy view of their sexuality and we screw it up so badly - without ever thinking of the long term consequences of our words/actions...



IanIronwood said:


> the vast majority of women in America are heavily conflicted about their sexuality, and only a tiny minority ever achieve a harmonious relationship with both their body and their partner. In essence, we encourage our little girls to have messed-up ideas about sex and then we release them into the wild to wreck destruction on their own self-esteem and that of the men they partner with.


WELL WRITTEN - wish I could present an idea so clearly!!


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## Janie (Apr 10, 2010)

greenpearl said:


> And in the bedroom, it is the husband's job to tell the wife sex is not dirty, sex is wonderful, sex is sacred, she has a great body, she makes him very happy in bed.


Do you believe that a husband saying these things can undo the messages picked up all through childhood and young adulthood? Do our well-developed mindsets instantly change with the words "I do"?

As children, we create our maps of what the world is, how it works, and how we should interact with it. Most often, we get many things wrong. But, it is the map we work from for the rest of our lives, UNLESS it creates difficulty in our life. At that point, we (can choose to) undergo the arduous task of recognizing the flawed thinking and painfully rewriting the map - this is how growth happens. 

Further - a woman who feels contempt for her husband's sex drive will hear those words from her husband and suspect it is his way to get more of what HE wants.


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## Janie (Apr 10, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> So true. There was indeed blinders over my understanding for far too long, I am almost ashamed it took so long for me to wake up. For the life of me, I can not understand where my head was at, feeling as I do NOW.
> 
> Thank God for Mid Life crises I suppose. Between some overactive hormones that took me by surprise, I had an overwhelming thirst for knowledge on SEX, I was devouring books left & right, I literally cried while reading "Passionate Marraige" explaining what "making love" means to a man. I suddenly realized I was NOT fullfilling my dear husband as he needed or wanted all of these busy years, I did not make myself available enough, sleeping with the babies, etc.
> 
> ...


SA - sounds like you and I have shared many similar experiences! I could have written this (only not so well!) And we understand this so well because we have both been on both sides of this. 

If women can unlock their passions, the end result is an experience so intoxicating that we can become addicted! And, it's for us! Our ability to express ourselves and provide such pleasure for another (and ourselves) is so incredibly powerful. And our husbands are ecstatically happy too. 

DUH - why didn't I figure it out sooner? And, my lament is that I suspect MANY women never figure it out...


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

greenpearl said:


> This is confusing me! From what I have read about western society, casual sex is everywhere. Sex is involved with two or more, so what is going on? Are there a lot of good women? If there are a lot of virtue women, then there shouldn't be so much casual sex going on!


See? You're doing it yourself: you're equating not having sex with "virtue" and being "good". "Good women" are only sexual within the bounds of a marriage, not before. That was fine when we all got married at 13 to one of the other kids in the rural village -- now, not so much. Our societal morals have not adapted to the actual culture -- which has, as you point out, plenty of "casual sex". The fact is that plenty of "good" women have casual sex, premarital sex, and all sorts of sex -- as long as they are not being judged on their sexual behavior. They might be pillars of their community, contributing members of society, and otherwise widely respected, but the moment a woman's sex life is brought up, she's ****-shamed out of "polite" society . . . mostly by other women.



greenpearl said:


> And in the bedroom, it is the husband's job to tell the wife sex is not dirty, sex is wonderful, sex is sacred, she has a great body, she makes him very happy in bed.


So how many years of him doing this is it going to take for her to overcome 20-30 years of being told the exact opposite, during the most impressionable and formative years of her life? 



greenpearl said:


> Who knows what is happening in the bedroom. I see a couple walk on the street, I don't know what is going on in their sex life. And who cares what other people think of me, I am not humiliating myself in public, I am having sex with my husband, I scream, I moan, I move my body, who knows, only my husband knows!


Perhaps. But if anyone else does find out, even if it's with your husband, be prepared for ****-shaming by those extremely judgmental souls who feel that any mention of sex is equivalent to ****-hood. 



greenpearl said:


> What is dirty? I am legally married, I am having sex with my husband, doesn't the law say this is legal? If people think sex with their married husbands is dirty, I find it absurd!


Agreed, "what is dirty?" You say anything you do with your husband isn't dirty, but what about a woman who does it with a man she's not married to? Same act, different context. Is that "dirty"?


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Brennan said:


> Who is perpetuating this?


Mostly women, some men, actually. I'll explain in a moment.



Brennan said:


> Not trying to sound combative but I hear it time and time again that it is the men who call out women for having multiple partners. How many of you would be okay with your wife having had more partners than you? How many of you would consider a girl you had sex with on the first date as relationship material?


I would, actually. Happened 3 times. Second girl I dated for 2 1/2 years. The third one I married. We've been together for almost 20 years since our "one-night-stand-gone-horribly-awry". But then I don't consider a woman exercising her sexuality in any way negative, unless she's using it to purposefully hurt someone.

Now any girl I dated who wanted to wait until we were married? Dropped her like a hot rock. I don't respect people who want to willingly carry themselves in ignorance about such an important topic.



Brennan said:


> How many of you think a women who seeks out many partners to be a **** while her male counterpart is a stud? I think alot of women grow up knowing this is how they will be judged and therefore look at sex and their sexuality with shame.


You're right. But don't blame the dudes. 

I've read a lot of sociological data about sexual attitudes, as well as anthropology, evolutionary biology, etc. etc. I'm a Sex Nerd. Let me lay some wisdom on you:

Women operate by default in groups. They seek groups (in general -- there are exceptions) for mutual support and protection, thanks to our 250,000 years as hunter-gatherers. Any group of females quickly establishes a social hierarchy that acts not only to support and protect the members of the group, but protect the group from the individual members. And sexuality is a big part of this.

The social order of the basic female group (and that can be a formal or informal group -- it doesn't matter) is threatened when one member of the group breaks ranks with the group to indulge in "prohibited" sexual behavior without the advice and consent of the group. In Middle School this was holding hands and passing notes; in High School it was how far a given group of girls was "permitted" to go with a boy. In college it's usually how many sexual partners (and how discreetly) a woman has, as well as her willingness to indulge in non-standard sexual behavior ("kinky").

A girl steps out of line . . . she's toast. She's ostracized from the group, punished, and forced to repent of her misdeed and suffer public humiliation before she's permitted to re-enter the group. When this is done over a sexual issue, it's known as "****-shaming". This is done when the group, or the group's leadership, has its power threatened by the sexual proclivities of a member. Since the group is designed to regulate and control competition for available mates, a sexual transgression is a Big Deal.

An example: A bunch of senior-year High School girls has evolved a general code of conduct around what their group will and won't do with boys. If it's the sexually active "****ty" group, then while the specifics about what is forbidden are different, the social response is the same. If it's the sexually-non-active "good girls", then making out is probably permitted, but anything beyond that is forbidden. But the same social rules apply.

So Girl A, of the Good Girl Tribe, secretly gives her bf a handy one night and confesses to one of the other members of the tribe in secret, because girls communicate a lot. Girl B leaps at the chance to improve her social standing within the group by bringing the transgression to the attention of the group. The group's leadership knows that if girl A is willing to go that far, then the rest of them might be expected to, or worse: Girl A is suddenly more attractive and higher-status to the males, which makes her a threat to the leadership and established social order. Therefore Girl A must be punished by the group or she's going to rapidly overtake the established order with her willingness to provide a higher level of activity than everyone else in the group. Girl A is ostracized, usually in a whispering gossip campaign that often leads to a confrontation between the leadership and Girl A that includes name-calling and overt ****-shaming. The group publicly repudiates the girl and humiliates her in an attempt to lower her status and elevate their own. By setting this pattern, and enforcing it rigorously, then the leadership of the tribe actually controls not just the group, but their boyfriends, as well. The members of the tribe all make certain that their boyfriends know that Girl A is no longer a member, and that they should also ostracize her or lose what limited sexual privileges they have with their current partner. The boys go along with it because boys are dumb and will do anything for sex, and we rely on women for cues as to sexual status. The few that don't actually see Girl A in an increased status, because guys don't really care about status at that age, they care about handjobs.

And then there's the leadership. Every group of women has it. One or two Queen Bees. It's their job to order and enforce the order, "for the good of the group". Only, it's not, really. While publicly making the proclamation of doing something for the good of the group, the leadership of the tribe is almost always violating the very rules she has made and enforces. Why? *Because the female social group is always designed to favor the leadership of the group. * You can make all the rules you want about stealing other girls' boyfriends, but when no one is looking the leadership doesn't hesitate to violate the rules herself out of a natural sense of entitlement. 

Guys have very little to do with it. We just want handjobs. We only make moral judgments about the sexual status of a particular woman based on the cues we get from the women in our lives. We're taught from birth to disdain "****s" -- sexually available women -- as being low-status, regardless of the reality. Despite the fact that it's in our best interests to elevate the sexually available woman to a higher status. This made a lot of sense back when we were all really tribal cultures and who mated with whom was a big deal as far as genetics went, but as a social system today it's pretty archaic. But men almost always take their social cues from women about this.

Sure, we aren't tribal any more. But try this experiment: get a group of women together, complete strangers, and let them get to know each other for an hour. Then announce to the group that one of the women they've been casually chatting with actually appeared in a porn movie once. But don't say who it is.

Hilarity ensues.




Brennan said:


> I don't think the same can be said for men. Men are taught that their sexuality is their God given right. Embrace it, enjoy it. Women sadly are not taught the same thing. Add in what Janie said about all the images surrounding women of what they are supposed to look like, act like, smell like, dress like and you get some very very sexually insecure women. Not sure what the solution is.



The solution is to stop worrying about the female social hierarchy and work for your individual best interest. Depending on the approval of other women for your self-esteem is fraught with peril, and they will judge you regardless of what you actually do or don't do. If they don't judge you on your sexuality because you've kept it successfully hidden, they'll judge you on outer manifestations of it: your hair, clothes, make-up, jewelry, and shoes, shoes, shoes.

The fact is that men, as a class, when removed from the influence of female society tend to value sexual availability as much as sexual attractiveness in their mates. They do not, as most women believe, only want gorgeous big-boobed bimbos, the "porn star model" as much as they want a sexually available woman. Such women are seen within male culture as high-status independent of female-culture; it's only when the judgement of other women are rendered that the names come out. ****. *****. Prostitute. Ho. Golddigger. Easy. Skank. etc. etc. 

And that's why it's not our fault. Really. But if y'all want to keep blaming us, we understand.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Janie said:


> Do you believe that a husband saying these things can undo the messages picked up all through childhood and young adulthood? Do our well-developed mindsets instantly change with the words "I do"?
> 
> As children, we create our maps of what the world is, how it works, and how we should interact with it. Most often, we get many things wrong. But, it is the map we work from for the rest of our lives, UNLESS it creates difficulty in our life. At that point, we (can choose to) undergo the arduous task of recognizing the flawed thinking and painfully rewriting the map - this is how growth happens.
> 
> Further - a woman who feels contempt for her husband's sex drive will hear those words from her husband and suspect it is his way to get more of what HE wants.


My personal experience, yes! 

My husband gives **** about my past, he likes the way I am now and the woman he is married now. He tells me that my past made the wonderful woman I am now. He doesn't care when I started having sex, he doesn't care how many men I had before him, he just reassures his love for me and he makes me feel very secure in this relationship. He doesn't make me feel shameful, he doesn't make me feel my past is dirty, he doesn't make me feel I am dirty! 

I guess I am a different woman, I don't care what other people think of me. In their eyes, I can be dirty, I am be a wh***, I can be a sl**, but I don't live with them, their judgment means **** to me. As long as my husband loves me the way I am, as long as he doesn't mind my past, I am secure in his love! He told me he married a bad girl, he doesn't want this bad girl to change to be a good girl. In the bedroom, I am super bad. But in our marriage, I am faithful, I am a hard worker, I am understanding, I am respectful, I do my best to be a good wife.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

greenpearl said:


> This society is complicated. If they want to protect girls, then they should teach boys not to deflower them until they are married. If women are suppressed, men are freed, how can there be a balance?


That's a horrible, horrible idea. 

I have a friend who's in her early 50s, got married late . . . and waited until then to have sex.

Now she's locked in a nearly-sexless relationship after getting only the briefest taste of what sexuality is really about. She bitterly regrets all the years she spent waiting, and wails about all the knowledge and passion she missed out on. Had she been experienced, she would have known up front that her hubby was a dud, instead of buying a pig in a poke. Now she's contemplating an affair out of frustration.

As far as "abstinence education", it's a horrible, horrible failure. If my daughter came to me with such a pledge, I'd have her in counseling the next day. Expecting healthy young adults to ignore or feel ashamed about their exploding sexuality is just asking for emotionally maimed adults.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Janie said:


> Archaic?
> Old rules?
> 
> Are you or have you ever been the parent of a teenage daughter?
> ...


My daughter is still in elementary school, but I'm assisting raising my teenaged niece and another female teenager (family friend -- long story). The second makes things easier because she's in a committed lesbian relationship, but even my straight niece (well, mostly straight -- she's still in an experimental phase) is encouraged to have a healthy, well-informed attitude about sex. She knows in disturbing detail all the medical issues, and we've discussed a lot of the psychological and hormonal issues. If she's having sex with boys (and if she is, she's being very discreet) then she's doing it fully informed. She doesn't dress "trashy", but she does dress a little provocatively, and I don't object. She's a lovely, beautiful girl who is proud of her body, and while I don't share her sense of style I don't mind when she dresses it up. Of course, we've never given her grief about it in her life, so she doesn't feel the need to rebel against us about it. All in all a good relationship, and a good role-model for my 9 year old daughter.

But when my girl is a teen, whether or not she has sex will be her decision -- after my wife and I get done with our educational lectures. And if I don't like what she's wearing I might say something, but I'd never insist unless she was breaking some important laws. The last thing I want is a sexually repressed daughter.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> See? You're doing it yourself: you're equating not having sex with "virtue" and being "good". "Good women" are only sexual within the bounds of a marriage, not before. That was fine when we all got married at 13 to one of the other kids in the rural village -- now, not so much. Our societal morals have not adapted to the actual culture -- which has, as you point out, plenty of "casual sex". The fact is that plenty of "good" women have casual sex, premarital sex, and all sorts of sex -- as long as they are not being judged on their sexual behavior. They might be pillars of their community, contributing members of society, and otherwise widely respected, but the moment a woman's sex life is brought up, she's ****-shamed out of "polite" society . . . mostly by other women.
> 
> 
> I was talking to my husband about this yesterday, he said that I am heavily influenced by Chinese concept. In China, sex before marriage is illegal, sex with a man who you are not married to is illegal, having this kind of sex is dirty. But if you are married, and the man you are having sex with is your husband, it is not dirty, it is protected.
> ...


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> That's a horrible, horrible idea.
> 
> I have a friend who's in her early 50s, got married late . . . and waited until then to have sex.
> 
> ...


I agree and I disagree! 

Different people have different stories. 

Some people feel secure about this, statistics said people who don't have sex before their marriage tend to trust each other more! 

Your friend's situation is unique for her, her story doesn't represent other people's life. 

I don't mind test driving your man before you get married, it is like buying a car, I have to test it first so I know this car is good or not. I have to test drive my man, so I know he is good in bed or not. If he thinks I am dirty for test driving him, then he is not the man I want to get married. I don't like a man who has to marry a virgin girl. If his mind is not freed, then lets him marry a woman who is a virgin, not me!


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

greenpearl said:


> I agree and I disagree!
> 
> Different people have different stories.
> 
> ...


But people who have sex before marriage have a much higher level of satisfaction in their marital life than people who wait. They might trust their partner more, but that trust is bought at the expense of mediocrity.

I'm all for premarital sex. And postmarital sex. Heck, any ol' sex is pretty good.


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## DudleyD (Jan 25, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Janie,
> I think you have hit on a point worth addressing. There are several different paths to an "overtly" sexually broken relationship. The first is that one of the partners disliked sex from the start. It isn't fair to demonize females on this point. There are MANY women who have had the exact same experience with male partners who deceived them on this point. There is a very standard pattern to "this" type relationship and it is striking how easy it is to spot. The pattern basically goes like this: As the level of commitment by the HD partner rises and the degree of relationship stability increases, the LD partner steadily ramps down the sex. Simplest example:
> 1. Dating: Sex is great
> 2. Engagement: Sex decreases
> ...


Can I just say you are AMAZING... this is spot on.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> But people who have sex before marriage have a much higher level of satisfaction in their marital life than people who wait. They might trust their partner more, but that trust is bought at the expense of mediocrity.
> 
> I'm all for premarital sex. And postmarital sex. Heck, any ol' sex is pretty good.


I can't wait to have my orgasms. If there is a man in front of me, and he is good looking, test drive him right away( If I were not married).

Who cares about being a good girl. Good girls don't get much! I doubt that their virtue attitude is giving them what they want from their life!


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

greenpearl said:


> I can't wait to have my orgasms. If there is a man in front of me, and he is good looking, test drive him right away( If I were not married).
> 
> Who cares about being a good girl. Good girls don't get much! I doubt that their virtue attitude is giving them what they want from their life!


So take a stand and quit calling them "good girls" when they clearly aren't. Start celebrating women who have a lot of sex, instead of condemning them. Hopefully it will catch on.


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## DudleyD (Jan 25, 2011)

Ian has really laid out a lot of common sense rational views on why things are the way they are.

Are you American Ian? I suspect not... if you are kudos. We need more people with your sense of rationality and common sense about these issues here in the states.


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## DudleyD (Jan 25, 2011)

greenpearl said:


> Some people feel secure about this, statistics said people who don't have sex before their marriage tend to trust each other more!


I come from a VERY religious part of the U.S. a place where the society is structured around the predominate religion and I couldn't disagree more with that statement... 

Some people "SAY" they trust each other more when they don't have sex before marriage but I can tell you that the divorce rate among people I know who are of that religious persuasion is MUCH higher per capita than the divorce rate among rational and realistic people who don't live in an archaic religiously constructed bubble based solely on faith and devoid of any logic.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

DudleyD,
That is very kind of you. My W has offered me an incredible window into the female mind. And I read a lot. 




DudleyD said:


> Can I just say you are AMAZING... this is spot on.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

DudleyD said:


> I come from a VERY religious part of the U.S. a place where the society is structured around the predominate religion and I couldn't disagree more with that statement...
> 
> Some people "SAY" they trust each other more when they don't have sex before marriage but I can tell you that the divorce rate among people I know who are of that religious persuasion is MUCH higher per capita than the divorce rate among rational and realistic people who don't live in an archaic religiously constructed bubble based solely on faith and devoid of any logic.


You are correct. The divorce rate is much higher among couples who waited until marriage to have sex.
CA is a very religious part of the U.S? I guess I just lived in the heathen zip code of CA.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

DudleyD said:


> Ian has really laid out a lot of common sense rational views on why things are the way they are.
> 
> Are you American Ian? I suspect not... if you are kudos. We need more people with your sense of rationality and common sense about these issues here in the states.


I am. Not just American, but Southern. And I work in porn. No, really. And thanks.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Brennan said:


> You are correct. The divorce rate is much higher among couples who waited until marriage to have sex.
> CA is a very religious part of the U.S? I guess I just lived in the heathen zip code of CA.


 I live in the buckle of the Bible Belt, and even though my local community is pretty liberal, "pretty liberal" in the South is conservative pretty much anywhere else, particularly on certain social issues. I see plenty of girls who "wait for marriage", only to be depressed and disappointed, trapped in marriages that have no hope of success or happiness for them. Their religious views are such that any hint of sex before marriage is grounds for expulsion from their church -- and in many communities, that's as good as exile. In the end they grow up to be bitter, resentful women who take their unhappiness out on their children. 

The ironic thing is, I'm not just religious, I'm devout. Just not a devout Christian. Paganism celebrates sex as a sacrament, and encourages young men and women both to treat sex as a sacred gift from the Goddess entrusted to them to be used with wisdom, discretion, and pleasure. It kills me when people equate being religious to being anti-sex. 

I'm sure the Goddess chuckles a bit, too.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> I am. Not just American, but Southern. And I work in porn. No, really. And thanks.


You have a FANTASTIC porn name, btw.  Okay, so you seem to have a healthy view about female sexuality as does HUBBY and a few other guys on here but do you think that is the norm? Wouldn't you agree that most men would call a girl a **** for having say 20 partners regardless of how many he had? I can name off about 6 different derogatory words for a woman who sleeps around. The only male equivalent is [email protected] and even that isn't derogatory. Actually "stud" is what's usually given. You wrote earlier that it is mostly women who perpetuate these stereotypes but I disagree. I have lots of guy friends and have known them prior to them getting married. The attitude was pervasive. "There's a girl you bang and a girl you marry". "I don't want something worn out". "She better not have more partners than me". "She can nail me on the first date but I certainly wouldn't want her as a girlfriend". It is that type of attitude that makes women afraid to express themselves sexually. It isn't the women making them feel that way.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Janie,
I think you are on to something really important. 

I will tell you how this looks from the male side of the table. From everything I have seen I truly believe that when a woman has core "respect" for her partner and at least some raw "desire" that pushes ALL these other "cultural issues" into the background. They basically become "white noise" and she wants/is willing to have frequent positive sexual interaction. 

I believe you selected the perfect word in your post below: "contempt"

But I am not so sure it is "contempt" for desire. I think perhaps it is contempt for the weak, insecure, anxious, fearful way that his desire is "expressed" when they get into a rejection cycle. I would guess she would feel similar contempt if he showed all that negative stuff in just about any context. 




Janie said:


> It is possible to abuse the 'power' created and is indeed a very ugly situation, but I'm more focused on the contempt women feel for male sexuality. Since the LD partner controls the frequency of sex, she will strike a balance - once a week, twice a month, etc - just enough to keep him off her back. The reason for the contempt is:
> 
> 1. She feels conflicted about her own sexuality from mixed messages growing up and her own bad experiences.
> 2. She, as a married woman, does not understand male sexuality.
> ...


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

DudleyD said:


> I come from a VERY religious part of the U.S. a place where the society is structured around the predominate religion and I couldn't disagree more with that statement...
> 
> Some people "SAY" they trust each other more when they don't have sex before marriage but I can tell you that the divorce rate among people I know who are of that religious persuasion is MUCH higher per capita than the divorce rate among rational and realistic people who don't live in an archaic religiously constructed bubble based solely on faith and devoid of any logic.


For that, I really don't know! 

My husband's relatives are all witnesses, they are forbidden to have sex before they get married, if they do and it is found out, they will be disfellowshiped. 

My husband has four uncles, the only one who is divorced is the one who was disfellowshiped. They are in their 60's.

Cousins who stay in the religion still enjoy happy marriage, cousins who have strayed away are divorced. 

My husband and I did something which they think we shouldn't have done, but I have come to accept their teaching and live according to Bible standards, not the sex part, but other areas. 

Witnesses are taught fulfilling each other's needs is important, the wife should be submissive and the husband should be caring and loving. 

I see a lot of happy married couples among them. 

I am blessed to be married to a man who was raised as a witness! He is loving, kind, mild, responsible, and sexual. I have learned to be a loving and understanding person because of their teaching too! 

So really can't say that people have a high divorce rate because they don't have sex before they get married. Marriage is not only about sex!


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> I live in the buckle of the Bible Belt, and even though my local community is pretty liberal, "pretty liberal" in the South is conservative pretty much anywhere else, particularly on certain social issues. I see plenty of girls who "wait for marriage", only to be depressed and disappointed, trapped in marriages that have no hope of success or happiness for them. Their religious views are such that any hint of sex before marriage is grounds for expulsion from their church -- and in many communities, that's as good as exile. In the end they grow up to be bitter, resentful women who take their unhappiness out on their children.
> 
> The ironic thing is, I'm not just religious, I'm devout. Just not a devout Christian. Paganism celebrates sex as a sacrament, and encourages young men and women both to treat sex as a sacred gift from the Goddess entrusted to them to be used with wisdom, discretion, and pleasure. It kills me when people equate being religious to being anti-sex.
> 
> I'm sure the Goddess chuckles a bit, too.


Yeah, I live in Houston by way of San Diego...talk about a religious culture shock. 
My former co-worker remained a virgin until her wedding day. She was 23. Married the first loser who took an interest in her. Her? Stunning. Him? Looks like Shrek. I have no idea why she didn't aim higher (my guess is the hot guys weren't willing to wait) but sexual frustration got the best of her and she said "I do". 2 1/2 years later, she is miserable but will not divorce. She doesn't believe in it over something "silly" as sex. She is now under the delusion that having a child will make their marriage better. I love here dearly but.........:rofl::rofl:


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Brennan said:


> You have a FANTASTIC porn name, btw.


Thanks! I'm pretty proud of it.



Brennan said:


> Okay, so you seem to have a healthy view about female sexuality as does HUBBY and a few other guys on here but do you think that is the norm? Wouldn't you agree that most men would call a girl a **** for having say 20 partners regardless of how many he had?


Depends. Are their women he knows around, watching him? Or is he out with the guys? The context is going to be very important, as is the nuance of meaning. Around other women, if he doesn't condemn the woman as a s1ut then he's tacitly approving of her behavior and inviting the ire of disapproving women. If it's him and the guys, he might say it, but he means something a little different than women do when they say the same word. The latter meaning has a slightly more positive connotation, but the fact is we'd prefer a term that was far, far more positive for a woman who is sexually adventurous. Nor does it mean that we will necessarily treat that woman in a demeaning way . . . unless we have been taught by the women in our lives that the only proper response for a "gentleman" is to condemn and degrade a woman who dares to enjoy sex outside of the heavily-prescribed manner. Men take their socio-sexual cues from women: if y'all stop calling them s1uts, we would too.



Brennan said:


> I can name off about 6 different derogatory words for a woman who sleeps around. The only male equivalent is [email protected] and even that isn't derogatory. Actually "stud" is what's usually given.


All too true . . . but don't think that the "stud" title is free from negative connotations. You might admire a stud, but you'd never trust him to watch out for your girl. I'd love to find a great term for a sexually active female that was very positive, believe me. 




Brennan said:


> You wrote earlier that it is mostly women who perpetuate these stereotypes but I disagree. I have lots of guy friends and have known them prior to them getting married. The attitude was pervasive. "There's a girl you bang and a girl you marry". "I don't want something worn out". "She better not have more partners than me". "She can nail me on the first date but I certainly wouldn't want her as a girlfriend". It is that type of attitude that makes women afraid to express themselves sexually. It isn't the women making them feel that way.



And whence did they learn these attitudes? From their mothers, who wanted to "protect" their boys by instilling in them a fear of women who aren't "pure" by their standards -- even if they, themselves, weren't "pure". Then there's the social pressure from likewise-indoctrinated men, who will denounce you if you don't adhere to their standards (or at least kick your ass) in the name of "decency". I ask you, what would you say to your teenage son who came home bragging about how many other guys his new girlfriend slept with before him? Would you congratulate him on finding such an experienced partner, or would you warn him away from "dirty s1uts" like her, in favor of "nice girls"? 

Women are primarily responsible for s1ut-shaming. Guys go along with it because we defer to the standards of our women in this.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

greenpearl said:


> So really can't say that people have a high divorce rate because they don't have sex before they get married. Marriage is not only about sex!


But without sex, it ain't a marriage. Period.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Brennan said:


> Yeah, I live in Houston by way of San Diego...talk about a religious culture shock.
> My former co-worker remained a virgin until her wedding day. She was 23. Married the first loser who took an interest in her. Her? Stunning. Him? Looks like Shrek. I have no idea why she didn't aim higher (my guess is the hot guys weren't willing to wait) but sexual frustration got the best of her and she said "I do". 2 1/2 years later, she is miserable but will not divorce. She doesn't believe in it over something "silly" as sex. She is now under the delusion that having a child will make their marriage better. I love here dearly but.........:rofl::rofl:



It's interesting that you judge him on his appearance, and by that token consider him a loser. I mean, he could be a very nice guy . . . 

Your friend sounds doomed. Pity.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> But without sex, it ain't a marriage. Period.


Please don't think that I don't like sex. You are new, you don't know much about me. I am one of the few women here who enjoy a lot of sex! 

I am a porn star in the bedroom for my husband. 

Sex in a marriage is like an important organ in our body, without it, our marriage dies!


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

greenpearl said:


> Please don't think that I don't like sex. You are new, you don't know much about me. I am one of the few women here who enjoy a lot of sex!
> 
> I am a porn star in the bedroom for my husband.
> 
> Sex in a marriage is like an important organ in our body, without it, our marriage dies!


I was speaking in general. No offense meant.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> I was speaking in general. No offense meant.


I am not offended! 

I explained just in case you don't know about me!


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

Hmmm... Guess I'm one of the few who is not bothered by girls who sleep around a lot. I just make a distinction between the sad ones (do it to feel better about themselves) and ones who just enjoy it (neutral feeling on those). I really dont care about what someone has done in the past or is doing now. Will never think less of them for having a lot of sexual partners. 

Then again, a man who sleeps around a lot but does not play with the female's feelings is also ok. If he plays them and then dumps them, he's a complete ******* and I really cannot be friends with someone like that. 

Well that said, I have only been with one girl my whole life, started when we were young, had sex quite early in our relationship, she initiated actually. The difference is that we are both smart people whom had good sex education in school and knew about all the risks and how to use contraceptives. Man, have always been glad she is mine. Such a wonderful girl. 

Either way, upbringing has a lot to do with a womans sexuality. We are a bit more free here in the Netherlands (probably have heard the horror stories ) compared to the US. I fear for some of the issues that can crop up with teen sex, but not informing is more detrimental in my opinion. They will do it anyway and then feel bad abou themselves. So, teaching sex ed. and telling a woman sex is not a taboo helps her grow, become more independent and secure about herself and her body. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DudleyD (Jan 25, 2011)

Brennan said:


> You are correct. The divorce rate is much higher among couples who waited until marriage to have sex.
> CA is a very religious part of the U.S? I guess I just lived in the heathen zip code of CA.


I haven't lived in Southern Cal my entire life... it's just where I reside now. San Diego is fantastic, although I prefer the dirty mess that is L.A. myself. 



IanIronwood said:


> I am. Not just American, but Southern. And I work in porn. No, really. And thanks.


Oooh a bible belter no less! I actually used to work in porn myself... not in front of the camera or anything though, just for a very popular website...


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## DudleyD (Jan 25, 2011)

Brennan said:


> I can name off about 6 different derogatory words for a woman who sleeps around. The only male equivalent is [email protected] and even that isn't derogatory. Actually "stud" is what's usually given.


You're definitely right about this... there is a difference between how a sexually empowered woman is viewed in society versus a sexually empowered man... but I don't see how that applies to sex within marriage. A married woman would sound ridiculous trying to rationalize a lack of desire for her husband with the excuse that she'll be viewed as a **** for having frequent sex with him.

Also these stereotypes are deteriorating by the day... look at how many famous women have porn tapes. Paris Hilton and Kim Kardasian both owe their fame to the pornographic videos that launched their careers... times they are a changing.


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## VeryShyGirl (Feb 18, 2010)

DudleyD said:


> You're definitely right about this... there is a difference between how a sexually empowered woman is viewed in society versus a sexually empowered man... but I don't see how that applies to sex within marriage. A married woman would sound ridiculous trying to rationalize a lack of desire for her husband with the excuse that she'll be viewed as a **** for having frequent sex with him.


The problem is the married woman doesn't KNOW thats the cause of lack of desire for her husband. She can't make the connection. At least I couldn't. I don't even ever remember WONDERING why I didn't want to have sex. It wasn't something I pondered. I grew up surrounded by these negative sexual attitudes and nobody told me when I got married that everything I'd been led to believe up to that point was now out the window. A switch didn't automatically flip. Instead sex tapered and became infrequent. I didn't know why, I just wasn't interested. Looking back, I know I was very sexually immature and had a lot to learn.

After a little wake up call I read all I could about sex, especially as it pertained to healthy marriages. Its still an ongoing process and I have made significant progress in changing my thoughts and feelings about sex and my own sexuality. With those changes in thought have come changes in my behavior. I now want to have sex a lot more often, initiate, try different things, am more tuned into my husbands needs, etc. 

The point is now everything is clear and makes sense... back then I was absolutely clueless about why things were the way they were.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

VSG,
That is a great story. And good for you for your own journey towards being happier yourself and I am certain creating more joy for your partner. 

If you are willing to share, what was your wakeup call?

On a separate note, I am sympathetic to the LD partner when it wasn't good from the start. Very much less so when it was good and without warning or conversation they shut it down. 

And FWIW - LD does not equal female. LD = low desire,
lots of LD males out there.



VeryShyGirl said:


> The problem is the married woman doesn't KNOW thats the cause of lack of desire for her husband. She can't make the connection. At least I couldn't. I don't even ever remember WONDERING why I didn't want to have sex. It wasn't something I pondered. I grew up surrounded by these negative sexual attitudes and nobody told me when I got married that everything I'd been led to believe up to that point was now out the window. A switch didn't automatically flip. Instead sex tapered and became infrequent. I didn't know why, I just wasn't interested. Looking back, I know I was very sexually immature and had a lot to learn.
> 
> After a little wake up call I read all I could about sex, especially as it pertained to healthy marriages. Its still an ongoing process and I have made significant progress in changing my thoughts and feelings about sex and my own sexuality. With those changes in thought have come changes in my behavior. I now want to have sex a lot more often, initiate, try different things, am more tuned into my husbands needs, etc.
> 
> The point is now everything is clear and makes sense... back then I was absolutely clueless about why things were the way they were.


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