# Some thoughts on NPD (Narcissists Personality Disorder)



## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

I have stumbled across articles on NPD in relationships like this one a few times over the past two years that my marriage has been in crisis. 

The Secret Language of Narcissists: How Abusers Manipulate their Victims. | elephant journal

I find read these and am a bit shocked at that sort of monsters that are portrayed in these specifically the people that take pleasure in tearing people down that they supposedly care about. 

When I read these the descriptions tend to match my STBXW very well in the big bullets. 

1. Using weaknesses that shared with them against you
2. A refusal to share anything that makes them vulnerable.
3. Gaslighting
4. Cutting down what you are interested to push you toward things they want.
5. Putting down your friends and family--encouraging social isolation.
6. Cultivating the desire to please them while never allowing that to be possible.
7. Grooming/lovebombing.


My wife scores high on more than a few of these these traits. In fact she is "lovebombing" me right now to try to stop the marriage from ending. But these articles seem to paint a caricature of reality. She is flawed but she is no super villain. She is not always expressing NPD, but often and rarely met me halfway when it come to anything in our marriage. For example:

When I would ask her to think about getting a job/career she would say:

"You just want me to by miserable". 

That seems pretty manipulative, right?

I rather think that the NPD thing exists on a spectrum where there are some truly awful people in the world and then there are others where are less cruel, but so deeply selfish they still fall under the umbrella. 

My marriage is over, this is not me contemplating a way to make this work. But I am haunted a bit by how much of this was abuse and how much of this was not standing up for myself because I wanted her to be happy. Maybe they are the same things. 

The truth is, I have never had a relationship where I did not feel used. A part of me is convinced that this is normal. That we humans are always dancing at the edge of NPD if not in it, and this is basically how life and relationships just are. That people are basically interested in what they can get out of you for the relationship and that the altruistic trappings are just various levels of self deception and hogwash.


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

My ex wife is diagnosed NPD. One thing that makes it a bit easier for me to deal with is the realization that there is no real conscious though or intent behind their actions. It is simply who they are at their very core. They are disassociated from the reality that most people live in. The things they believe, say, and do are very real, and perfectly acceptable to them. It is their natural order of things. That is why there is no cure, nor is there any kind of treatment. That is what makes them so dangerous.

The only way you can deal with them is to do so entirely on your terms. You have to set the narrative of the relationship, and not let them have an inch, or they will swallow you up. In most cases, the only way to do that is going no contact, no exceptions.


----------



## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Most of the personality disorders are actually spectrum disorders. Perfectly healthy people will sometimes exhibit traits of a personality disorder. But it won't be constant and it won't be severe. As one edges closer to having a diagnosable PD, the symptoms and signs increase in frequency and gravity. A true NPDer will display virtually all of the symptoms, to a high degree, nearly all of the time. But, it's possible for an individual to display strong narcissistic characteristics without rising to the level of being diagnosable with NPD. In other words, it's possible to be really selfish and self-centered without actually having a personality disorder. More than one mental health professional has privately described my ex-husband as the most strongly narcissistic person they've ever met who wasn't diagnosable with anything. He's in the really selfish camp, rather than the NPD camp. It still made him a really, really, bad husband. So, OP, your wife may have NPD or she might just be profoundly selfish. 

It does help, when dealing with strongly narcissistic people, to remember that whatever they have going on isn't about you. In fact, it was never about you and can never be about you. Because you don't really exist for a narcissist. Their entire being is focused on themselves. Other people only count for what they can do for or give to the narcissist. The way they're wired doesn't really allow them to consider anyone other than themselves in any real way. There's no real malice in that, because malice would require them to think about the other person - and that ain't happening. If you can keep that in mind, you eventually stop being as surprised by the self-centeredness that pervades their thinking and actions. It doesn't make them any more pleasant to be around, but you eventually get to where you can predict at least some of the crazy some of the time.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

If a concoction looks vile, smells vile, tastes vile, does it matter what it's called?


----------



## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

As someone who was married to a person with strong BPD traits I can relate to your situation. The knowledge you have gained about PD's will serve you well. I hope you will be able to spot ticking bombs a mile away and steer clear. That said, it sounds like in one way or another your picker is broken.... With time and separation it gets better and I can testify that there are good people out there.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> My ex wife is diagnosed NPD. One thing that makes it a bit easier for me to deal with is the realization that there is no real conscious though or intent behind their actions. It is simply who they are at their very core. They are disassociated from the reality that most people live in. The things they believe, say, and do are very real, and perfectly acceptable to them. It is their natural order of things. That is why there is no cure, nor is there any kind of treatment. That is what makes them so dangerous.
> 
> The only way you can deal with them is to do so entirely on your terms. You have to set the narrative of the relationship, and not let them have an inch, or they will swallow you up. In most cases, the only way to do that is going no contact, no exceptions.


I'll go one step further. Many with NPD think that most everyone is just like them. And when they are angry at you they will tell you that YOU always put yourself first and that YOU are the one who needs attention and so on.

Yes, it not only is incurable but some of them can never even understand that there are other ways to be.


----------



## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

samyeagar said:


> The only way you can deal with them is to do so entirely on your terms. You have to set the narrative of the relationship, and not let them have an inch, or they will swallow you up. In most cases, the only way to do that is going no contact, no exceptions.



This thought had crossed my mind and it is a good way of putting it. Staying in a relationship with someone that is even borderline NPD would be a constant fight to police boundries.


----------



## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

Shoto1984 said:


> As someone who was married to a person with strong BPD traits I can relate to your situation. The knowledge you have gained about PD's will serve you well. I hope you will be able to spot ticking bombs a mile away and steer clear. That said, it sounds like in one way or another your picker is broken.... With time and separation it gets better and I can testify that there are good people out there.


My "picker" has not been used for more than 20 years. I bet it is functioning better that ever with that experience.


----------



## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

ScrambledEggs said:


> Staying in a relationship with someone that is even borderline NPD would be a constant fight to police boundaries.


Fight is an understatement because asserting boundaries with a narcissistic partner will enrage them. In fact, anything you do that even smells like “on your own terms” will enrage them. And, they punish you for it either directly or indirectly.

I learned all this the hard way. "No contact" is the only solution.


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

ScrambledEggs said:


> This thought had crossed my mind and it is a good way of putting it. Staying in a relationship with someone that is even borderline NPD would be a constant fight to police boundries.


There will be times where their behavior will align with your boundaries, but do not mistake that for conscious effort on their part. It's just simply coincidence and has nothing at all to do with you or your boundaries.

It is so important to remember that you can not control anyone else's actions or reactions...only your own. There is nothing you can say or do to make someone do anything they don't choose to do on their own. This applies to everyone you ever interact with, especially narcissists. The difference being...a normal person will consider you...something a narcissist is not capable of doing. There will be no guilt, no shame no realization, no a-ha moment from the narcissist. They are simply missing that part of their humanity. It does not exist.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> I'll go one step further. Many with NPD think that most everyone is just like them. And when they are angry at you they will tell you that YOU always put yourself first and that YOU are the one who needs attention and so on.
> .


This.


----------



## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

My manager thinks he is perfect and therefore expects everyone to be perfect, like him. We all know how that ends. 

The company issued early retirement and he took it. 8 months of bu11sh1t to go. 

Putting up with him has been one of the hardest things I have EVER had to deal with in my life. I cannot imagine trying to make a marriage work with this type of mental disorder. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Threeblessings (Sep 23, 2015)

I'm convinced my ex-husband has this. I have a question, though - If two NPD people are in a relationship can they actually be happy? After recent events, it would seem my replacement also has the condition. Perhaps they are well suited because they both share the same traits?


----------



## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

Oh hell yes, that's exactly how it goes too.

I've learned that mirroring behavior is a GREAT way to snuff people out. If it's because a lack of empathy, when you do the exact same thing to them if they care, they quickly get the idea.

And then you have the NPD. When you mirror them or make a stand, they go off the rails and can't handle it. It's a lost cause. The best thing to do is get those kinds of people out of your life or it will be non stop. Let the next person deal with it.



Red Sonja said:


> Fight is an understatement because asserting boundaries with a narcissistic partner will enrage them. In fact, anything you do that even smells like “on your own terms” will enrage them. And, they punish you for it either directly or indirectly.
> 
> I learned all this the hard way. "No contact" is the only solution.


----------



## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Threeblessings said:


> I'm convinced my ex-husband has this. I have a question, though - If two NPD people are in a relationship can they actually be happy? After recent events, it would seem my replacement also has the condition. Perhaps they are well suited because they both share the same traits?


Typically its a conarcissist or codependent which "can" look narcissistic, but isn't at its core. Keep watching, I bet the difference between them will emerge.


----------



## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

Red Sonja said:


> Fight is an understatement because asserting boundaries with a narcissistic partner will enrage them. In fact, anything you do that even smells like “on your own terms” will enrage them. And, they punish you for it either directly or indirectly.
> 
> I learned all this the hard way. "No contact" is the only solution.


i couldn't agree more....but will add that the NPD will do anything and everything to WIN. no matter how low they have to sink, what lies they conjure up, nothing is off limits for a NPD to prove themselves "in the right" no matter how delusional they are.


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

x598 said:


> i couldn't agree more....but will add that the NPD will do anything and everything to WIN. no matter how low they have to sink, what lies they conjure up, nothing is off limits for a NPD to prove themselves "in the right" no matter how delusional they are.


And they will truly believe to their core every thought they have, and every word they say.

That is what makes true NPD so insidious. There is no reasoning through it because everything they say and do IS their reality, IS the world they live in.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> If a concoction looks vile, smells vile, tastes vile, does it matter what it's called?


It does from a mental pathology point of view. In the grand scheme of things it doesn't.


----------



## Grogmiester (Nov 23, 2015)

x598 said:


> i couldn't agree more....but will add that the NPD will do anything and everything to WIN. no matter how low they have to sink, what lies they conjure up, nothing is off limits for a NPD to prove themselves "in the right" no matter how delusional they are.


This ^^^^^

Win at any cost x 10 !!!!!

I think you can have strong boundries but you can only do it for so long. Staying only guarantees you a life time of misery. Getting out and no contact is the best choice in my opinion.


----------



## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Grogmiester said:


> This ^^^^^
> 
> Win at any cost x 10 !!!!!
> 
> I think you can have strong boundries but you can only do it for so long. Staying only guarantees you a life time of misery. Getting out and no contact is the best choice in my opinion.


True.... ONCE you know they are truly pathological. 

I think it is wise to take a reasonable amount of time to determine if they are or are not.


----------



## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

As others have mentioned, personality disorders are on a spectrum. Was your wife diagnosed or were you just thinking she met some criteria? Because a lot of the personality disorders have overlapping criteria. Maybe she's bipolar with a fear of abandonment and her behavior is symptomatic of something different. 

My ex was diagnosed during custody and he was pretty far up on the scale. He is pretty much a monster who can turn on the charm when he wants like Jekyll and Hyde. 

Bottom line is regardless of a diagnosis, you know the marriage isn't working. Although the diagnosis helped me understand what he was doing and why after our divorce and to let go of some of the 'blame' in the dissolution of the marriage. My feelings and responses were validated by the diagnosis.


----------



## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

Grogmiester said:


> This ^^^^^
> 
> Win at any cost x 10 !!!!!
> 
> I think you can have strong boundries but you can only do it for so long. Staying only guarantees you a life time of misery. Getting out and no contact is the best choice in my opinion.


LET THIS BE A WARNING TO ANY HERE DEALING WITH SOMEONE THEY MIGHT THINK IS NPD....

i was with an obvious NPD......yet really loved the woman.

one afternoon, some drinks at a bar...we came back to my home.
she physically attacked me during an argument.
three days later, she filed filled a police report claiming she was assaulted by me. i was charged with very serious crimes....

THANK GOD....i made an audio recording of the incident. her hitting me, threatening to kill me etc.

that recording, among other lies disproven in her statement, got these very serious charges dismissed. 

the woman is DELUSIONAL.....believes her own BS.....and did her best to use anything and everything she could to ruin my life instead of just walking away.

if you are with an NPD.......BEWARE of what these people are capable of.


----------



## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

x598 said:


> LET THIS BE A WARNING TO ANY HERE DEALING WITH SOMEONE THEY MIGHT THINK IS NPD....
> 
> i was with an obvious NPD......yet really loved the woman.
> 
> ...


My mother was violent too, so I agree

She also concocted a story to cut me out of the family after I stood up to her


----------



## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

samyeagar said:


> .
> 
> The only way you can deal with them is to do so entirely on your terms. You have to set the narrative of the relationship, and not let them have an inch, or they will swallow you up. In most cases, the only way to do that is going no contact, no exceptions.


I would agree with this, but I think it applies to every relationship, not just abusive ones. But at the same time doesn't this behavior imply a bit of narcissism in our selves?

I think we all tend to project a little in trying to understand how a relationship failed. We don't want to consider our selves as flawed in some way, so we look for some flaw in our ex. Not saying that is the case with samyeager, just that in general I think it is true. 

A simple fact is that a narcissist can't be successful unless they have willing victims. We all can be fooled. The difference I think is in recognizing it and not letting it happen again. I think the quote "fool me once shame on you, foll me twice shame on me" is applicable here.

I can go back and dissect things my ex said and did and come to the conclusion that she was narcissistic, but at the same time I allowed that to happen to me and the reality is that there is probably someone who will (happily) allow it to happen to them in the future. Whether it is by choice or by ignorance, will be completely up to them. All I know is that I do watch for these things now.


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Ynot said:


> I would agree with this, but I think it applies to every relationship, not just abusive ones. But at the same time doesn't this behavior imply a bit of narcissism in our selves?
> 
> I think we all tend to project a little in trying to understand how a relationship failed. We don't want to consider our selves as flawed in some way, so we look for some flaw in our ex. Not saying that is the case with samyeager, just that in general I think it is true.
> 
> ...


The term narcissist is thrown around very cavalierly to mean anyone who is selfish and self centered.

There is a difference between someone having heavy narcissistic tendencies, and someone with Narcissistic Personality Disorder. They are not even close to the same thing. Until one has dealt with a true narcissist, they have no idea what it is like, and once they do encounter one, they will never forget.


----------



## higgsb (Apr 4, 2016)

@x598



> LET THIS BE A WARNING TO ANY HERE DEALING WITH SOMEONE THEY MIGHT THINK IS NPD....
> 
> i was with an obvious NPD......yet really loved the woman.
> 
> ...


Was it possible to have charges brought against her for filing a false report? I ask because my wife had a TRO taken out on me just about when her affair started and then she had the TRO vacated just after the affir ended. I discovered all this through text messages 2 year after it all happened and I went to the police witht the text evidence and they said there was nothing that could be done.


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

americansteve said:


> @x598
> 
> 
> 
> Was it possible to have charges brought against her for filing a false report? I ask because my wife had a TRO taken out on me just about when her affair started and then she had the TRO vacated just after the affir ended. I discovered all this through text messages 2 year after it all happened and I went to the police witht the text evidence and they said there was nothing that could be done.


Conviction on filing a false report is extremely difficult. You would have to prove malice and intent along with no grounds at all. Most of the time, even a claim of the other yelling at them is enough to substantiate the report, thus negating a false report.


----------



## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

americansteve said:


> @x598
> 
> 
> 
> Was it possible to have charges brought against her for filing a false report? I ask because my wife had a TRO taken out on me just about when her affair started and then she had the TRO vacated just after the affir ended. I discovered all this through text messages 2 year after it all happened and I went to the police witht the text evidence and they said there was nothing that could be done.


you need to talk to a lawyer...not the police.


----------



## higgsb (Apr 4, 2016)

@x598 @samyeagar

Well there certainly was lots of yelling but on both sides and I never threatened or touched her. It was just a very loud (screaming to be honest) argument and certainly not the first. 

What the cop I talked to said was that since the TRO was issued on her statement that she "was in fear for her life," I would have to prove that she was not in fear for her life.

Anyway, I'm almost over it and I'm going to Costa Rica so I just decided to drop the whole thing. Still there is no doubt in my mind that she met this guy, they began an emotional affair and that strongly influenced her decision on the TRO. When I was gone, it proceeded to a physical affair. Once she found out the guy was married, she ended the affair and vacated the TRO. This is my theory.

She insists that she didn't even meet the guy until after the TRO was issued. The time line seems too tight. She would have had to have jumped into bed with this guy within days of me being out of the picture. From what I've read about how affairs start and end, that just doesn't seem likely.

It just drives me crazy not knowing exactly how the whole thing went down.


----------



## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

samyeagar said:


> The term narcissist is thrown around very cavalierly to mean anyone who is selfish and self centered.
> 
> There is a difference between someone having heavy narcissistic tendencies, and someone with Narcissistic Personality Disorder. They are not even close to the same thing. Until one has dealt with a true narcissist, they have no idea what it is like, and once they do encounter one, they will never forget.


I agree, which is why I made my comments. The term is thrown around to validate whatever happened to many of us. I also agreed with your previous statement but felt that the same applied to every relationship. We need to deal with every relationship on our own terms.


----------



## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

I guess If she goes total psycho during the divorce she is NPD. If not she was just super selfish. 

There is a lot of on point insight here. She probably is not fully NPD and I fully acknowledge my poor boundary setting created plenty for me to be unhappy about. But the bizarre part about all of this is I don't really know. A women I have known for more than 20 years and it's like I know nothing about her fundamental personality because she shares nothing I don't extract with a crowbar. When you look it that way, it's the guy with the crowbar that is crazy one for tolerating it for so long.

If she never cheated on my I probably would have continued to give her a pass on a lot of crap. Such was my poor understanding of relationships.


----------



## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

Have you ever …

witnessed a person’s hidden smile when they observe another’s emotional hurt, embarrassment or other social misfortune?

witnessed a person’s hidden look of rage when they observe another who is experiencing positive attention?

witnessed a person ignore their spouse and children when they are seriously injured and in need of medical attention? And then, when home from the emergency room have that same person rage because you were not there to attend to some need of theirs?

witnessed a person have a raging “why are you doing this to me” meltdown over a family member who is seriously ill?

I have seen all of this and more. The above are examples of NPD behavior *after *they have established the love/loyalty of their “loved ones” and life is not running smoothly. *Please, someone tell me how one can “see this coming”?
*
What it all boils down to is that they are entitled to all the accolades (ego kibbles) from everyone. And, if any of those ego kibbles are directed elsewhere they will rage and/or plot revenge.

I know of only way to filter out the disordered (so to speak) early on in a relationship. And, that is to say “No” in answer to a simple request and do not offer any explanation as to “why”. Then be quiet and observe their reaction.


----------



## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Red Sonja said:


> Have you ever …
> 
> witnessed a person’s hidden smile when they observe another’s emotional hurt, embarrassment or other social misfortune?
> 
> ...


One level of narcissism is Malignant Narcissism. I think these fit that level because there is a heightened level of cruelty.


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Red Sonja said:


> I know of only way to filter out the disordered (so to speak) early on in a relationship. And, that is to say “No” in answer to a simple request and do not offer any explanation as to “why”. Then be quiet and observe their reaction.


This is a good idea in general, and is often recommended to screen out narcissistic people when dating.


----------

