# Unfair Expectations



## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

I had a somewhat disappointing discussion with my wife yesterday. I won't bore you with the details, but the gist went something like this:

Me: I'm not the perfect husband, I realize that.

Her: Good, I realize that too

Me: But I do have a number of categories that I score very high in. Doesn't this mean I should be cut a little slack in the relatively few areas where I'm weak.

Her: Not if those area are critical.

Me: But, you've already agreed the perfect husband doesn't exist, so how do I compare to "what's on the lot"?

Her? What

Me: All of the other husbands in the friggin universe. Imagine you're in the infantry. Do you think you'd want a tank or two with your squad?

Her: Sure

Me: Well you're a stickler about always parking your vehicles in our garage, so do you still want the tank? It definitely won't fit. I mean the tank is intimidating, and it will protect you. It packs a punch, but the gas mileage sucks. Also, the handling is a little rough, and as I've mentioned it won't fit in your garage.

Her: That's just stupid.

Me: So you'd still want it because the good far outweighs the bad?

Her: Yes, but it's still stupid.

Me: Well, I wasn't going to call you on that, but I do agree with your assessment. To be honest though, it's really more unfair than stupid.

Her: But that's not our situation.

Me: Yes it is. Let me put it to you this way. If a gypsy woman told you 20 years ago that the man you married would be a hard working, faithful, good looking, intelligent, professional man would you have ran screaming towards the hills?

Her: How arrogant, you're describing yourself.

Me: How perceptive. Well which one of those things aren't I?

Her: crickets chirping...quiet

Me: That's my point. Maybe I'm not the most exciting person, and I "vacation poorly" as you put it, but that's only because when we're together I resent the fact you friggin neglect me, and it's not recent it's chronic neglect.

Her: So it's my fault?

Me: Yes, the fact you habitually ignore me and then expect me to want to do things with you is most definitely your fault.

Her: Lot's of people like to spend time with me.

Me: Play back the tapes on your life, and you'll see that I was once "one of those people" as well. The difference is you don't treat me like you used to treat me at all.

Her: And how do you treat me?

Me: After about 20 years, the same way you treat me, but you drew first and second blood. I came much later to the party.

In closing, I'm looking for a little validation here. Is it unusual for a husband to resent and avoid his wife after years of being relegated to the back burner of her life? For the record, I am not boring and I would vacation well if I was treated better. 

Guys tell me that you could spend 10 days in hawaii with your wife and not be "pissed" if she didn't have sex with you even once. Her back hurt. I guess I've never had back pain. It must be really bad. 

In our last three vacations, we have had sex exactly one time. What pisses me off is I'm a good lover. When we were dating I couldn't keep her off me, and then add kids, and then nothing.

I feel mistreated, but she swears kids and their needs are to come before me and my needs. I don't agree, and yes I help around the house. I friggin clean far more than she does, and she's a SAHM. I do everything more than she does with the sole exception of childcare for our younger children. I however do spend more quality time with our teenagers than she does; so in essence it's really a three to three split.

This is utter madness in my opinion, and it is corroding the very fabric of our marriage. It also creates distance between me and my younger children, as a part of me is offended when they continually end up in our bed and "soak up" time that's rightfully mine.

Any thoughts? The train is already headed swiftly towards Divorceville, but can it, or should it be derailed? LIL


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## beninneedofhelp (Nov 24, 2009)

It sounds like it can be derailed and maybe it should be , i dont no for sure but the kids part soaking up time is something you should expect but you can find other ways to get that time like plan a night with the kids being gone or something , remember the times she had with you having fun and relive them and see if that makes a difference maybe do some of them old things together again.. But maybe that talk you had made her think a bit sounds to me like you had her on the ropes really questioning herself but im not one to give advise right now either i have loads of my own questions and worries as well and im not sure how to go about my situation either , but to me it sounds like something can be done to find a mutual peace and from what i have read most couples that get through rough times are found 5 years later to be happier then ever before but maybe them are facts that are biased as well only way to be sure is do everything you can to make things work and be happy doing it ....


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## JMAN777 (Dec 4, 2009)

From the situation you describe I think you are definitely justified in how you feel. I can relate to your feeling despite being only a few years into my marriage (together half a dozen before). We had the same situation when we went to Hawaii last summer (intimate once) and that is when the emotional distance issue starting to become apparent in our relationship. If the habitual ignoring and effort cease on her end that is not a good sign. I tried addressing it in my case several months ago through counseling and a multitude of other means but it became increasingly worse and now I can almost say with certainty that we are done. If I bring up the fact that I feel mistreated it seems that my spouse tries to fabricate or twist something to justify her actions that do have any real logical basis. This is difficult to deal even without kids as I'm sure that element adds a great deal of complexity to the situation. Best of luck. 

Me: I'm not the perfect husband, I realize that.

Her: Good, I realize that too

Now with regard to the above, does she ever feel comfortable admitting her faults? In my case my spouse rarely if ever does so and externalizes everything.


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

I have bad news for you JMAN777. I think we just might be married to the same woman. Seriously though, there is no ownership on her part which is very sad. 

At it's heart our marriage would be far easier to fix than throw away, but "somethings gotta give." I can't and won't do this for another 20 years. 

LIL


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

lastinline-

I still have not read the rest of your threads, which I still plan to do, but just looking at this one I would say you lack the guts to leave her - and she knows it. At least that's the story so far. I guess you're revving up for something now...


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## Mom3Girls (Jan 1, 2010)

Wow, I feel bad for you, it is also very revealing because I see myself in your wife and that makes me sad for my hubby, and we are no where NEAR 20 years into the marriage.

Something is bothering her, something that she is being very passive aggressive about and I hope she appreciates that you even care to try and work things through....I hope things get better...as someone on the other side of things I hope the wife snaps out if it.

My hubby complains that I ignore him too and neglect him too sometimes...I love him too much, but he gets home late and after all day with the kids, just when they are sleep and I have peace, here he comes and then we conflict because I'd like some alone time and he is home ready to be a couple with his wife...it can get hairy...

I wish you the best!


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Didn't like the tank - a bit corny.

But the "vacation poorly", "I used to be one of those people" and "you drew first and second blood" - do mind if I borrow those?

Also maybe a little confused about what you hoped to accomplish. Did you really expect her to have an "aha!" moment?

You may be in the right, but that is no guarantee that she'll ever see things your way, no matter how good the analogies, metaphors, etc.,


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Mom3Girls said:


> My hubby complains that I ignore him too and neglect him too sometimes...I love him too much, but he gets home late and after all day with the kids, just when they are sleep and I have peace, here he comes and then we conflict because I'd like some alone time and he is home ready to be a couple with his wife...it can get hairy...


You'll be the one who complains the loudest when you lose him.


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## Rosharon (Jan 1, 2010)

Mark (I love your user name, BTW) I have to read your previous threads before giving any real feedback, but my instant reaction to the transcript of your conversation is that your wife was responding to your analogies, not to you.

I don't understand the tank in the garage. Yes, if I was outfitting an army I'd want tanks but what has that got to do with parking my real vehicles in my real garage in my real life?

Is your wife very literal? My husband is, and I'm the one who tries to explain myself with metaphors he doesn't quite get and then we get sidetracked while I try to explain what the metaphor means and what I meant by it and then we quarrel about whether it was an appropriate metaphor.


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

Hopefully now it is clear my opinion of this, but I will say again, sexual attraction is NOT based on logic or intellect.

It is much older and primal than these recent things like speech or language or rational thinking. 

That is why you say it is "madness" because that is what it seems to try to use logic to figure it out. 

Actions speak louder than words, and in sexual attraction, this is even more so.


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

the sex issue, ah yes. if one wants to have sex bad enough they will make time no matter what, if they don't they will avoid it and make excuses. i am fully schooled in that scenario

i fondly remember days past that sex was very important to both my wife and i, we enjoyed each others company and made time for intimacy. she is the one who changed in the desire department, not me. blame it on kids, hormones, headaches, backaches....net result is the same. i guess if i saw some remorse, some verbal reassurance that she knew she wasnt providing for my needs, and thanked me for providing for hers, it would be far better.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

okeydokie said:


> i guess if i saw some remorse, some verbal reassurance that she knew she wasnt providing for my needs, and thanked me for providing for hers, it would be far better.


If you really want sex, and you've already tried addressing everything that you might have been doing to make yourself "unappealing" then maybe you have to find the guts to pick yourself up and leave. Lack of finding you desirable means she does not feel that close to you. It's simple.

Or to put it another way, if you've addressed the resentment issue, and you can no longer see that as her reason, then, to parody the title of a famous book: "She's just not that into you".


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

okeydokie said:


> the sex issue, ah yes. if one wants to have sex bad enough they will make time no matter what, if they don't they will avoid it and make excuses. i am fully schooled in that scenario
> 
> i fondly remember days past that sex was very important to both my wife and i, we enjoyed each others company and made time for intimacy. she is the one who changed in the desire department, not me. blame it on kids, hormones, headaches, backaches....net result is the same. i guess if i saw some remorse, some verbal reassurance that she knew she wasnt providing for my needs, and thanked me for providing for hers, it would be far better.


This the the "spiral of resentment".

The problem is the woman is also feeling resentment to you, because she is not feeling desired or sexy. This is also why she is "filling this gap" with blaming it on excuses, kids, etc.

The double problem, and you are saying you are looking for remorse, is that rarely is the woman even knowing this is going on.

Do not think she is doing it on purpose, again that is only fueling resentment in you to her. If she herself is not knowing it is happening, she is not going to know what to tell you.

The good man that has the knowledge both of what is happening and how to fix it, can be the happily married man.


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

MarkTwain said:


> You'll be the one who complains the loudest when you lose him.


Well said MT. I know for me and most men I've spoken with, spousal "neglect" even if it's for benign reasons, is still a dealbreaker. LIL


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

MarkTwain said:


> If you really want sex, and you've already tried addressing everything that you might have been doing to make yourself "unappealing" then maybe you have to find the guts to pick yourself up and leave. Lack of finding you desirable means she does not feel that close to you. It's simple.
> 
> Or to put it another way, if you've addressed the resentment issue, and you can no longer see that as her reason, then, to parody the title of a famous book: "She's just not that into you".



i want sex more regularly, frequency is the problem. she sends me strong signals when it is or isnt ok, which are things you realize after a 20+ year marriage. trying to get sex on her "off" times is just forcing her (or attempting to) into something she isnt really wanting. i must be somewhat appealing twice a month. thats my point, she has to realize that twice a month isnt enough for me (hell ive made that very clear) but it just doesnt improve because she doesnt want it to.


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

My wife met with her lawyer yesterday. As she was more than a little late in returning "from nearby large town" approximately 100 miles away, I called her to "check in" with what was up.

She was pleasant enough when she answered her phone, and didn't refer to me by the lengthened version of my name which is always a favorable sign. I basically went to "close the deal", by immediately asking what her "numbers were" e.g. child support and alimony. She said she didn't have any, and on that odd note we said goodbye. 

The previous night she had asked me for all of the info that I had researched regarding our net worth, projected child support figures, and alimony. She also wanted my total income for 2009. As I'm trying to "talk her down" from this lawyer thing and back into mediation, I gave her everything willingly. 

She returned home yesterday around 10:20 in the evening. I immediately wanted a debrief, but instead she simply handed me what in essence was some form of a marital contract. I think
her lawyer pal may have looked at her overall situation and said "Lady you have no alibi, but the D.A. is pretty lenient so we're gonna take a plea, and throw ourselves on the mercy of the court." Thus a marital contract was born.

Her manifesto was a list of marital demands coupled with counter-concessions. In short, a contract where she acknowledged my need for affection from her as a positive for our relationship, and agreed to seek part time employment outside the home as to be more productive.

In return, I was to come home earlier, listen and take her counsel more often, or at least explain why I was choosing a different solution when I didn't. I was also to refrain from "talking at her", "interupting" or "lecturing". I also was "never to raise my voice to her", and I am "banned" from the use of military jargon.
Furthermore, I am to spend time with my youngest two kids that does not involve instruction on "throwing or striking."

I am not sure what to make of this, other than it's a positive in the fact that she's saying she is willing to "keep" the marriage. I have no problem with spending more time with my kids. I love my kids. In my opinion, it was changes between us as husband and wife that lead to a breakdown of everything else in the first place.

It also is easy to refrain from either "raising my voice", "lecturing", or "interupting" her. For over 15 years or marriage this was never a problem. As for the martial arts stuff, well she just flat out hates it. To me however, it is no different than if I was really into baseball, and I wanted to take my kids to the batting cage all the time. I guess this will be one of "first" things we discuss.

She has a friend from South Africa over today. It will be interesting to see what the ladies are up to this afternoon. Anyway, "daylights a burning" time to go train on the heavybag. LIL


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## ChimeIn (Oct 10, 2009)

LIL, I have to say I think you are headed for divorce, and you may be unable to derail it. I think you and your wife are in the downward spiral of "too little too late." There is so much bitterness and resentment that neither of you are willing to take another step towards compromise.

When you started the following conversation, did you try to talk during a good time? No kids around, no stress?

*Me: I'm not the perfect husband, I realize that.

Her: Good, I realize that too

Me: But I do have a number of categories that I score very high in. Doesn't this mean I should be cut a little slack in the relatively few areas where I'm weak.

Her: Not if those area are critical.*


I have to say I agree with her there. You can be the best "provider" financially, but if you are ignoring the relationship emotionally and spiritually, then you've missed critical areas.


*Me: But, you've already agreed the perfect husband doesn't exist, so how do I compare to "what's on the lot"?

Her? What

Me: All of the other husbands in the friggin universe. Imagine you're in the infantry. Do you think you'd want a tank or two with your squad?

Her: Sure

Me: Well you're a stickler about always parking your vehicles in our garage, so do you still want the tank? It definitely won't fit. I mean the tank is intimidating, and it will protect you. It packs a punch, but the gas mileage sucks. Also, the handling is a little rough, and as I've mentioned it won't fit in your garage.

Her: That's just stupid.

Me: So you'd still want it because the good far outweighs the bad?

Her: Yes, but it's still stupid.

Me: Well, I wasn't going to call you on that, but I do agree with your assessment. To be honest though, it's really more unfair than stupid.

Her: But that's not our situation.*


She's right... that's just stupid. Weird analogies aren't going to help you out here. You're already on her $hit list. She doesn't want to understand your metaphors. Be more direct.


*Me: Yes it is. Let me put it to you this way. If a gypsy woman told you 20 years ago that the man you married would be a hard working, faithful, good looking, intelligent, professional man would you have ran screaming towards the hills?

Her: How arrogant, you're describing yourself.

Me: How perceptive. Well which one of those things aren't I?

Her: crickets chirping...quiet*

Here's where it gets complicated... women are NOT as vindictive, mean, and manipulative as many men think. She may have had a LONG laundry list of all the things you aren't. But many women (myself included) will very rarely voice any of them in anger. A), she may be hoping you'll reconcile. If so, she doesn't want to have said those words out loud and always regret them. B), If you don't reconcile, you are the father of her children and she probably has many good memories of when things were happy. She doesn't want to "tarnish" them by turning into a witch at the final moments of your marriage. C), As that man that she first fell in love with, she would never say those things out loud and make you doubt yourself in your next relationship.

This may not be the case with your wife... but I know I choose my wording very carefully when I talk to my husband. 


*Me: That's my point. Maybe I'm not the most exciting person, and I "vacation poorly" as you put it, but that's only because when we're together I resent the fact you friggin neglect me, and it's not recent it's chronic neglect.

Her: So it's my fault?

Me: Yes, the fact you habitually ignore me and then expect me to want to do things with you is most definitely your fault.
*

This is going to come back to one of your earlier posts. You said that she asked you to quit your practice. You said no. She feels that you chose your work over her. 


*Her: Lot's of people like to spend time with me.

Me: Play back the tapes on your life, and you'll see that I was once "one of those people" as well. The difference is you don't treat me like you used to treat me at all.*


Because you chose your work over her, she chose the kids, her friends, her hobbies and lots of other things to lavish her time, love and energy on... I know that's been the case with my husband and I.

*Her: And how do you treat me?

Me: After about 20 years, the same way you treat me, but you drew first and second blood. I came much later to the party.*

So I see this as a case of "too little too late" and both of you being unwilling to take the first step. If no one is willing to compromise then the marriage will die. It's as simple as that. It may have been slowly dying ever since her first request to quit your practice. Of course that was probably not reasonable... and you can't be expected to give up your chosen profession. But it sounds as if you weren't able to find a compromise that would work for the two of you. Now you've had 20 years to build up resentment. That's a long road to recover from. I hope you're in counseling (both couples and individual) to help you grieve the loss of your marriage, and to help you find happiness on a new path.

Good Luck.


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

LIL, in the "marriage contract" above, it seems like you are expected to make alot of changes and i didnt see where she has to do much of anything, am i reading that wrong?


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

lastinline said:


> Her manifesto was a list of marital demands coupled with counter-concessions. In short, a contract where she acknowledged my need for affection from her as a positive for our relationship, and agreed to seek part time employment outside the home as to be more productive.


LIL, I know you read a lot of my stuff, but did you read my central piece about RESENTMENT: Sexless Marriage?

If you can cross-question yourself about anything you were doing to cause resentment over the years, you will make huge strides.

At the end of the day, I don't think your wife is all that into you, but you can do things to increase your standing...


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

MarkTwain said:


> LIL, I know you read a lot of my stuff, but did you read my central piece about RESENTMENT: Sexless Marriage?
> 
> If you can cross-question yourself about anything you were doing to cause resentment over the years, you will make huge strides.
> 
> At the end of the day, I don't think your wife is all that into you, but you can do things to increase your standing...


I disagree MT. I think "she's plenty into me". I think she's spurned because she thinks I've placed my work and hobbies above her in my life.

I read your section on resentment, and the answer is obvious. It's work. I need to rebalance the equation, and begin to put her as a central priority in my life. She just wants more time with me i.e. romance. This is a fair and reasonable request.

As for her "affair", she denies vehemently having any sort of physical contact with him. She says they were "friends" and nothing more. Basically, they just played racquetball together, and had the occasional lunch, but never alone.

She admitted it wasn't appropriate, especially in light of what his exwife said so she stopped. Very recently she had Joe reiterate to me "that nothing ever happened". "I'd be afraid you'd kick my @ss". I believe were his exact words. 

So there it is MT, a choice...to trust or not to trust. How would you decide Sir if given another chance with your wife? Inquirring minds want to know. LIL


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

lastinline said:


> So there it is MT, a choice...to trust or not to trust. How would you decide Sir if given another chance with your wife? Inquirring minds want to know. LIL


For a whole month, I wanted her back. Then I noticed I reached a 50/50 point. After that, the desire to have her back melted away, to the point where I am now enjoying being single and dating.

I'm hoping that her new relationship will last at least a few years, becuase I don't want her trying to get me back - I might find it hard to resist if she really laid it on with a trowel - I'm a sucker for flattery it must be said. But I just don't want to go round the loop again.

If you look at my now defunct thread: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/long-term-success-marriage/3010-20-years-august-married-18-years.html you will see that just over two years ago, I realised that "she was just not that into me". When she could see I was on the verge of calling it a day, she suddenly started being super sexy. I also began to see all the things I had done to put her off me. A bit after that I discovered TAM, and formulated my ideas on resentment. 

I did everything I could to take her resentment away, and it made a huge difference. Our sex life took off. But in the end, she was "not all that into me", in that our marriage was vulnerable to the chemistry she felt for another guy. In the end, I feel she is probably one of those people who are not naturally monogamous - if she is with one guy she will fancy another.

I never had a problem with this - but she claims to be a one man woman - so I was dispensed with. She also thinks it strange that I did not mind, and that I even found it erotic to some extent. She was offered to "have her cake and eat it", but she turned me down.

But I'm cool with it. We have 3 great kids, and I want to get out of her face quickly enough so that we can remain friends. We had some good times, and the last two years were some of the happiest of my life, despite being so broke last year we could not afford Christmas.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

By the way, saying she was not naturally monogamous was not a criticism of her. I don't think that many people are. But so few will admit it.


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

That's an odd statement MT. To me it is a bit of a "ding". I always thought a good deal of our population was naturally monogamous. I believe (as I have no real data to back this statement up, it is a belief) that most people would prefer a stable and meaningful relationship over a series of high intensity hook-ups. Lord knows I do. 

If all a person wants is sex, that's not difficult at all to achieve, but sex with actual emotional meaning behind it...that's the pursuit and prize of a lifetime. LIL


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

lastinline said:


> If all a person wants is sex, that's not difficult at all to achieve, but sex with actual emotional meaning behind it...that's the pursuit and prize of a lifetime. LIL


Yes it is  But... as human beings we have many sides to us. Some people get a huge amount out of raw sex. To them it is the ultimate. There is a part of that in me, so I have no trouble understanding it in others.

For me, sex with one woman at a time just gets better and better, but not everyone is put together like that. I think monogamy is largely a religious concept that has become part of society. It works better for some than others.


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

I could not imagine having more than one sexual partner at any one time...the thought of it is 'yuck' for me. But I also link sex very closely to emotional attachment, love, so maybe that is why...not that animalistic, raw sex is out of the question...just not with any random guy!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

LIL - this all comes down to sex - and that is absolutely fair. As a man you cannot feel truly loved without it. 

For some reason your wife does NOT want to have sex with you. It is really that simple. As for WHY - she knows why and there is no doubt about that. And she is simply not telling you. Is this the only way she can hurt you? WHY does she want to hurt you? Or maybe she really is not attracted to you anymore - that happens sometimes even with a very handsome man. 

But you will lose your mind if you stay together without solving this. 

Have you ever asked her this? It is NOT about being too busy with the kids - your wife is clearly strong willed if she wanted to make time to connect with you sexually she easily could. But she chooses to use the kids/being busy as an excuse to avoid you. And she has for a long long time. Why? 

Her back hurt in Hawaii eh? Did it seem to effect her mobility for other activities? See I don't believe it. She avoids sex both at home and on vacation. She avoids it because she doesn't want to do it. You said it happened once on 3 vacations. 

And please - don't say "but she has multiple O's each time" because I believe you that she does. I believe you. But for some reason that you still do not know, she doesn't want to have sex with you. 

Why why why? 

Find out and maybe just maybe you can make some progress. If she won't tell you - then you cannot make progress in this area and .....

I know you are hurting - and your story is truly a sad one. I also believe that when you speak to her your focus is on making a convincing argument that you are right and she is wrong/crazy/being unfair. Stop doing that. 

How about you just ask her - what happened that made your love and your passion for me - die? 

By the way - perhaps your wife cares more about how she feels she is "seen" by her man then how she "sees" him. So the fat homely man she had some level of relationship with - he "saw" her as this beautiful charming delightful woman. And he TOLD her that. And she loved him for it. I do not blame you - I am simply describing what seems to be happening. 








lastinline said:


> I had a somewhat disappointing discussion with my wife yesterday. I won't bore you with the details, but the gist went something like this:
> 
> Me: I'm not the perfect husband, I realize that.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

LIL,

When you have these conversations with your wife - what is your goal? 

Reason I ask is the way this comes across is that you are primarily trying to get her to understand that you are "right" and she is "wrong". You seem to "win" each of these talks but do you think this is moving her in the direction of wanting to be more sexual with you? I don't. Frankly just the opposite. 

If it were me - I would say - despite everything I still love and desire you. And to start moving forward I need you to do a couple things. 
1. Tell me what I can do to make you feel more loved and more accepted 
2. Accept that for the moment - you simply need to have sex with me at least twice a week. I know it will be awkward for BOTH of us. We are both hurting and both angry. But this is what I need from YOU in order to keep my sanity. You can pick the nights. 
3. In return I will do what I can to in general be more sensitive to your needs and desires. For instance if you wish me to not discuss my martial arts any more in your presence - I will agree to that. If you wish me to be home more often I will work towards that. 
4. If however you want me to give up my martial arts - that is different and that is something you would have to explain in a way that I can understand. And then listen - for real - listen. If it is simply a "because the mommy says" then of course that is a NO. But if she has a valid reason - think about it. 

Frankly I am a relentless negotiator and unlike you I am willing to flex in ways that maybe I shouldn't. If my wife was willing to do what I needed to feel good about the marriage - I would switch to running or put a heavy bag in the garage - or lift. I would be willing to make her my highest priority even in this annoying type situation - as long as she did what I needed and did it with a loving heart. 







swedish said:


> I could not imagine having more than one sexual partner at any one time...the thought of it is 'yuck' for me. But I also link sex very closely to emotional attachment, love, so maybe that is why...not that animalistic, raw sex is out of the question...just not with any random guy!


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

MEM11363 said:


> LIL,
> 
> When you have these conversations with your wife - what is your goal?
> 
> ...


MEM11363, I really don't think you're grasping the entirety of my relationship with my wife. At this point, I am basically just playing for points. 

No, I don't think she will have this great epiphany or "aha moment"; nor, in truth do I even care anymore. Your argument MEM11363 is based on the false premise that I can control her actions through my actions, and I assure you this just isn't so. For whatever reason, she currently is not a logical or reasonable person. It has gotten so bad, that I have had to transfer her medical care to another associate. 

She will not take direction from me. Even in areas where I definitely have authority, based on years of training and area of expertise. In short the b*tch is flat out in rebellion.

She complains that I act like a parent, which is befitting I suppose because she behaves as a child. I will be blunt. At this point, I do want a divorce. Timing is currently my sole concern.

I really appreciate your input and your thoughts are sound MEM11363. I'm afraid though, you don't actually grasp just how "lost" the situation really is. The word euthanasia comes to mind when I think of my marriage or what's left of it Sir.

As for your checklist, I am done kowtowing and compromising. It doesn't bring peace only more misery. Appeasement never works with tyrants.

She says she doesn't feel "secure" in her relationship anymore, and that's why she can't "touch me". She can "tell" I want a divorce so she is trying to "protect" herself from pain by denying me.

The circular nature of this argument is truly spectacular. Yes, I do want a divorce, but it has every thing to do with the fact you haven't slept with me since the first week of October, so by all means continue to physically ignore me.

At this point, I honestly don't think I could sleep with the woman and I have told her that. I have been clear that our relationship needs a complete "reboot" if it's to be saved.

I have recently offered to begin re-dating her. My thought was we could start there and work at rebuilding our friendship. I was very clear that my expectations are currently for nothing more than touch, or basically hugging and cuddling. 

She was actually offended, which makes no sense because she is the one who "closed the sex valve" in our relationship. In the 22 years we have been together, I have refused to have sex with her 3 times. Once, I was just too friggin sore. Another I was sick, and the 3rd she came to me and directly said she "wanted to have sex right now" because she knew she'd get pregnant. Not exactly the best seduction line, when you already have 5 kids.

It's interesting though, I was reading Atholk's Blog and he was talking about the whole Alpha/Beta thing. What caught my attention though was the fact that he said woman are mostly attracted to beta's during the majority of their month. However, when they are ovulating and at their greatest point of fertility, Alphas have a week or so of preference.

I may have 6 kids, but it seemed like every second time we had sex she was pregnant again. Every 2 years like clockwork. He may be on to something here. I'll be sure to get started on the paperwork for the research grant.

Anyway MEM11363, the whole TKD thing is just a distraction. The gist is I can't have a life. I can work because she knows where I am, but when I'm not at work I have to be home where I can pick up her slack. I don't think so. She goes out...a lot. Do I? No. She has abused her privlege of staying at home to live a soft and cushy life at our families expense. I resent her lack of work ethic and the fact she has left me to carry the lion's share of the load.

I am not going to give up or "hide" my martial arts, simply because it is the only thing I have outside of work in my life. It has become a part of how I identify myself, and it is cleansing. It allows me a safe and healthy venue to rid myself of the overwhelming negativity of my marriage. 

I'm glad your a great negotiator, but I assure you this is a sale even you couldn't close. Everything you have said makes sense but it's based on the notion she has a loving heart, and I assure you that's no longer the case.

It takes a lot to get her attention these days. I didn't pay our mortgage last month. That got her attention, and yes it was straight out retaliation for her meeting with a divorce lawyer when we'd agreed to mediation only. Just a little "love note" in the mail to remind her that the man she despises is also the man who friggin pays for everything she has. LIL


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

LIL,
That all makes sense. But somehow you and I have managed to invert our marital messages at home. 

My wife knows that she has to treat me decently to receive the same treatment and ultimately to stay married. And yet she feels totally safe. Absolutely. Safe from infidelity - from divorce etc. She knows how committed and how much I love her. I think marriage is important - but don't speak about it in the same absolutes that you do. Regardless of what I think - talking that way tends to cause your partner to behave badly more often then not. 

You have spoken about marriage as an unbreakable commitment when talking to your wife. And yet she claims not to feel safe. I think that is simply an excuse not to have sex with you. And frankly you might be the best lover in the world - but she doesn't want to have sex with you. She just doesn't. All this other commentary from her is just a smokescreen. 

And this is not about dating or hugging or anything else. It is about sex. And while she might be the most difficult person in the world - I wonder something. When have you straight out demanded she answer - really answer - the question about why she dislikes sex with you. And it is not about being safe - because when she DID feel safe she still acted this way. 

If I were her - I would still question whether or not you are capable of leaving me. The whole intent of putting the martial arts on the table at the same time as demanding frequent sex is this. It will FORCE her to tell you why she dislikes sex. Because otherwise she will simply be stuck doing something she dislikes again and again. 

Rest assured - in that situation she will tell you. 
And FWIW - as brilliant and alpha and handsome as you are my friend, you do not know the answer to the most important question in your life. 

Why is your wife sexually averse to you?




lastinline said:


> MEM11363, I really don't think you're grasping the entirety of my relationship with my wife. At this point, I am basically just playing for points.
> 
> No, I don't think she will have this great epiphany or "aha moment"; nor, in truth do I even care anymore. Your argument MEM11363 is based on the false premise that I can control her actions through my actions, and I assure you this just isn't so. For whatever reason, she currently is not a logical or reasonable person. It has gotten so bad, that I have had to transfer her medical care to another associate.
> 
> ...


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

She has her chick friend over from South Africa again this weekend. Yippee, my whole house is awash in culture. They went out to the E-bar for a couple of hours last night..."for some drinks".

When they returned home, the little ones were already asleep. I was too pissed to even acknowledge her good night. I really don't care where she goes, but yesterday afternoon while she was out "shopping". The kids were at home unsupervised and my dog got out. I am sure glad I'm married to such an attentive SHAM. Oh I'm sorry, I mean SAHM.

He's just a little Jack Russle, but they are a fiesty breed and our fun loving drunk Russian neigbor tried to "shoe" him away and he growled at her. Now it's going to be a major home owners asssociation "thing", or so I'm told.

She sent her husband over who is nice enough but completely "whipped". I felt bad for him and said he's not a mean dog. I called him over and went through his tricks. 

He laughed, the "force choke" trick is especially cool if you're a Star Wars Geek like me, and apparently he is. I told him straight up we weren't likely to be in the neighborhood long, as my wife and I are separating. He said he was sorry, but his eyes said he was envious of my courage. 

I pointed to my still up Christmas tree and lamented on my overall situation. I said my son's life is going to change enough here shortly. He adores his mutt, and since your wife wasn't bit, or mauled by my vicious 20 pound dog, I'm keeping him. Nuff said. 

At this point, he said he "wasn't a confrontational man". I think he sensed the overall situation, realized he had delivered his message of protest, and decided wisely this wasn't a good hill to die on.

I congratualted him on being non-confrontational at that point. I said that this is good thing neighbor, as neither am I. I then shook his hand and we parted ways.

I feel bad for the poor bastard though, as I know his wife "Lilly" sent him over to get a conformation that we were indeed getting rid of the canine killer. I could see this in his face when I came out of my office. He was still very much mentally rehearsing "the script" in his mind.

On the plus side, the chair of our home owners association's wife was a patient of mine, and he's my appointed proxy. I'm sure with a phone call, I can have the complaint conveniently lost until were gone.

What a week. My oldest son enlisted in the army. He wants to be a Ranger. This is a good thing in my opinion, but I think my wife wants to have me murdered in my sleep for encouraging him. Then my assistant left to go work on her Doctoral degree in L.A.. A bad thing, at least for now as I've lost my right hand in clinic, and finally, the friggin dog. Way to go 2010.

I'm sorry I almost forgot MEM11363...the most important question in my life has nothing to do with having sex with my wife. It's currently: "*How do I get my friggin life back without getting completely raped by the CA courts?"*

LIL


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I said it much earlier in this whole process in another thread, but despite those inevitable moments of reminiscence, hope, and trying to be positive, your marriage hit threshold a while ago. It's toxic. The rot has completely compromised the structure of your marriage. Even while you try to buttress it, the rot hasn't subsided. At this point, I don't think it can subside while the two of you are under one roof. Are you doing individual counseling LIL? If not, I would advise it. 

Too much damage. This was our scenario. Getting to a 'good' place became a matter of letting go of one another in the notion of marriage partners and forging an alliance as parenting partners. There has to be some front upon which she will stake accountability and responsibility - I don't doubt that you have this skill set, don't know about your spouse. If she can not, or will not? All you really have left is the nuclear option and mutually assured destruction. She can't get your money if you've spent it all on an attorney trying to prevent her from taking it.


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

Thank you Deejo for your response. Your post makes perfect sense, and I am in complete agreement. Sadly, I do believe our relationship is no longer healthy emotionally, and is terminally compromised. I will look into individual counseling again as well. I had previously gone a single session and found it quite cathartic.

I also agree that trying to unite under the banner of a parenthood partnership makes sense. This will take some work though, as our approaches and beliefs have become as different as the east is from the west.

Finally, she seems to have stepped away from the precipice of divorce just as I have seemingly lunged towards it. There is such a bizarre yin and yang dynamic to our relationship right now...one moves closer and the other moves away. It's just mind boggling 

Anyway, at this point my goal is simply for a friendly dissolution of my marriage through mediation. I hope I'm not asking for too much. Once again, thank you Deejo for offering such pragmatic advice. LIL


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