# Need some advice on how to approach counseling



## Reluctant Texan

Hi all, 
I've written about some of the problems in my relationship before.

basically, they've continued (as predicted) and I'm at my breaking point much sooner than I had expected. I hoped to keep things together at least until my fiancee went back to work.

We have a 1 year old at home, and my partner is a very unhappy stay-at-home-mom.

Some have suggested she's depressed, and I could see that being the case. She has started making more of an effort to take our child to play dates and activities and get out of the house more, but it's never enough.

She does very little housework, other than what's absolutely required, and demands I help out more. Here's the thing with that: I already help out at home from the moment I come home from work until everyone else in the house is asleep. And sometimes after that I'm still up doing laundry and dishes, when they really piled up during the day. 

We have trouble making decisions together, and when she doesn't get her way, she takes it out on me, and holds grudges (this seems to have factored in to our complete lack of intimacy... as I mention below).

I'm frustrated by this, and also her angry outbursts and attitude, and on top of all that, there's zero intimacy and she always has an excuse for avoiding it, often inconsistent or hypocritical. At this point, I simply don't believe her anymore or trust she's being honest with me, though she claims she it (actions speak louder than words).

When I've told her how I'm also unhappy and stressed (we're financially stretched and I'm the sole breadwinner) she will get angry and doesn't listen; she yells, polices my tone, changes the subject to something she's upset about, etc. Or she threatens to pick it up again and fight when my older kids (school-aged) are at our house "so they can hear how you talk" or threatens to yell and swear in front of them. Which is like a huge threat to me... I can't believe she goes there mentally, to threaten my other kids like that.

Then after having dealt with her outbursts for over a year now, she started more recently telling me I am moody and she's walking on eggshells around me! 

Today I finally told her I no longer see a future with her and I want her to get a job and move out. She went to pieces, sobbing hysterically, insisting this means I never wanted to be with her, etc. 

She claims she's looking for therapists now.

I'm not sure really how to approach that.

as of maybe a month ago (we've been together for about 3 years) I still held out hope for our relationship. Now, not really anymore. I don't see a way back to earlier times when I wanted her and wanted to be with her. 

I'm not sure how to approach counseling. Even if things calm down in the home front there are still all our other problems, and lack of cooperation and the damage done; I feel extra resentful she could withhold intimacy as she's done. To me that's just a really destructive thing to do to a relationship. it makes it totally one-sided and reveals just how selfish the other partner is.


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## GC1234

Reluctant Texan said:


> Hi all,
> I've written about some of the problems in my relationship before.
> 
> basically, they've continued (as predicted) and I'm at my breaking point much sooner than I had expected. I hoped to keep things together at least until my fiancee went back to work.
> 
> We have a 1 year old at home, and my partner is a very unhappy stay-at-home-mom.
> 
> Some have suggested she's depressed, and I could see that being the case. She has started making more of an effort to take our child to play dates and activities and get out of the house more, but it's never enough.
> 
> She does very little housework, other than what's absolutely required, and demands I help out more. Here's the thing with that: I already help out at home from the moment I come home from work until everyone else in the house is asleep. And sometimes after that I'm still up doing laundry and dishes, when they really piled up during the day.
> 
> We have trouble making decisions together, and when she doesn't get her way, she takes it out on me, and holds grudges (this seems to have factored in to our complete lack of intimacy... as I mention below).
> 
> I'm frustrated by this, and also her angry outbursts and attitude, and on top of all that, there's zero intimacy and she always has an excuse for avoiding it, often inconsistent or hypocritical. At this point, I simply don't believe her anymore or trust she's being honest with me, though she claims she it (actions speak louder than words).
> 
> When I've told her how I'm also unhappy and stressed (we're financially stretched and I'm the sole breadwinner) she will get angry and doesn't listen; she yells, polices my tone, changes the subject to something she's upset about, etc. Or she threatens to pick it up again and fight when my older kids (school-aged) are at our house "so they can hear how you talk" or threatens to yell and swear in front of them. Which is like a huge threat to me... I can't believe she goes there mentally, to threaten my other kids like that.
> 
> Then after having dealt with her outbursts for over a year now, she started more recently telling me I am moody and she's walking on eggshells around me!
> 
> Today I finally told her I no longer see a future with her and I want her to get a job and move out. She went to pieces, sobbing hysterically, insisting this means I never wanted to be with her, etc.
> 
> She claims she's looking for therapists now.
> 
> I'm not sure really how to approach that.
> 
> as of maybe a month ago (we've been together for about 3 years) I still held out hope for our relationship. Now, not really anymore. I don't see a way back to earlier times when I wanted her and wanted to be with her.
> 
> I'm not sure how to approach counseling. Even if things calm down in the home front there are still all our other problems, and lack of cooperation and the damage done; I feel extra resentful she could withhold intimacy as she's done. To me that's just a really destructive thing to do to a relationship. it makes it totally one-sided and reveals just how selfish the other partner is.


If you don't want to go, then you don't go, and you end the marriage. She only seems to want to put in the work NOW because she is being asked to get a job. It's not genuine. So, stop putting water in the colander and move on.


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## Reluctant Texan

yeah, I hear that. 

I'm going to go, because the alternative is not pretty right now (it will be an immediate lawsuit, because she's said the only way she can leave is if she can go live with her mom across the state, (5 hrs away), and if I agree to that, I'd have to pay child support AND never see our child ... at least regularly). 

I am open to seeing how a professional assesses the situation as well. 

But I am not hopeful of seeing her put in the work to rebuild our r/s.


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## GC1234

Reluctant Texan said:


> yeah, I hear that.
> 
> I'm going to go, because the alternative is not pretty right now (it will be an immediate lawsuit, because she's said the only way she can leave is if she can go live with her mom across the state, (5 hrs away), and if I agree to that, I'd have to pay child support AND never see our child ... at least regularly).
> 
> I am open to seeing how a professional assesses the situation as well.
> 
> But I am not hopeful of seeing her put in the work to rebuild our r/s.


Well to my understanding, you would be entitled to visitation rights, regardless. I don't believe she can leave.


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## Reluctant Texan

GC1234 said:


> If you don't want to go, then you don't go, and you end the marriage. She only seems to want to put in the work NOW because she is being asked to get a job. It's not genuine. So, stop putting water in the colander and move on.


also, it's not a marriage.

I proposed to her after I got her pregnant.

She was initially cool to marriage, but over time seems to have assumed it's going to happen once she feels like it and started occasionally bringing it up. 

conversely , as time has gone on, I'm relieved we never got married and convinced that even if we do somehow work out, I'm never going to marry her.


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## Reluctant Texan

GC1234 said:


> Well to my understanding, you would be entitled to visitation rights, regardless. I don't believe she can leave.


well, yes, but I'd have to sue her in our county to keep her here. 

I'd have the same visitation rights if she left, but practically speaking, could not make the 5 hr trip very often.


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## *Deidre*

Sounds like she's just pacifying you...by ''looking'' for therapists, and worried you'll leave her. The thought of getting a job, the horrors. 😱

Good idea to seek legal advice to get a sense of your options in terms of child custody, etc. That may give you an idea of what you should do next.


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## Reluctant Texan

*Deidre* said:


> Sounds like she's just pacifying you...by ''looking'' for therapists, and worried you'll leave her. The thought of getting a job, the horrors. 😱
> 
> Good idea to seek legal advice to get a sense of your options in terms of child custody, etc. That may give you an idea of what you should do next.


Yeah, this is like the 2nd or 3rd time in the last year it's come to the "let's look for therapists together" point. 

She also agreed on a couple other previous occasions her behavior was out-of-line and she wanted to get counseling for herself. But never followed through on it.

I have seen an attorney for some advice. That's why I'm not prepared to consent to her moving 5 hours away "just for a year or two." I'd have no right to object if she reneged on her promise.

Honestly, I WISH she would just leave. I hate being in a situation when your partner has all these reasons for being unhappy with you, nothing you do is right or ever enough, and when you put that question over to them, "_OKAY, THEN WHY DON'T YOU LEAVE?_" they can't answer or won't, or concede maybe it's not that bad, but bla bla bla.

If we just can't end it for the time being, I'm can manage an unhappy home front for another couple months while I get my affairs in order and scrounge together some cash to hire an attorney if needed or pay for a deposit on an apartment for her & move her out. I've already tolerated 20 months of cohabitation that's been largely miserable because of her... I can tolerate a couple more if I can see the light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak.

I'm going to call off any things we had planned. No more trips, not going to her friend's wedding, not going to her family for xmas, etc. She can deal with the questions and awkward comments herself. 

Planning all those things with her is agonizing enough. I feel relieved I can just say no now.


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## Reluctant Texan

Also, I'm not going to be the one leaving... I bought the house she wanted. paid for it, mortgage is entirely in my name. She's leaving, not me.


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## *Deidre*

It's sad because you likely had ''dreams'' for a future with her, and it's also sad that a child is involved now. If you're meant to be together, she'll do some work to improve. If not...if this is all just a way to buy time so you don't leave, I still hope you can end things amicably. For the sake of your child, anyway.


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## Reluctant Texan

As I consider the situation, the "dynamic" she created seems to be very much that she's the wronged party here because she "had" to move to the suburbs b/c that's where my kids lived, and now she's home all alone without a budget to hire a nanny or babysitter or take trips or buy things like she wants, and so she's felt justified in taking all that out on me, punishing me for it, losing her temper at the drop of a hat, withholding sex, etc. 

I really didn't see this side of her before we lived together, although I had some flashes of it before then. You never want to assume the worst about someone, right? especially when you've been together for over a year and it was great. 

Now, I really don't want to be with her anymore. Even if we make it through another year and she gets a job, every decision we make as a couple is agonizing, she always picks the most expensive option and sulks when she doesn't get it, and I'm always the one fixing things that don't work out. 

Just NOT a good long term prospect for me. 

There were a couple times this summer I'd take three kids to the pool by myself (including the baby) and realized it was STILL easier and more relaxing than having her there, ready to snap if I didn't jump when she wanted. 

I think she realized something too, because she started objecting to my weekend outings alone with the kids, like she knew something must be off if I'd rather she wasn't there


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## Lotsofheart73

Sorry for your situation. You sound absolutely miserable. I agree about stopping all the plans together. I’m not sure how you’re going to get over this resentment for the way she has treated you. Well, I mean, you can get over it but, you’ll never feel the same about her again.

Follow your attorney’s advise. Keep moving forward. Do not let her drag you back down.


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## Lotsofheart73

She blames you for her living situation? Easy, get out and get a job and move into the city. That’s the life she wants, she needs to make it happen. She sounds like someone who is never satisfied.


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## *Deidre*

Reluctant Texan said:


> As I consider the situation, the "dynamic" she created seems to be very much that she's the wronged party here because she "had" to move to the suburbs b/c that's where my kids lived, and now she's home all alone without a budget to hire a nanny or babysitter or take trips or buy things like she wants, and so she's felt justified in taking all that out on me, punishing me for it, losing her temper at the drop of a hat, withholding sex, etc.
> 
> I really didn't see this side of her before we lived together, although I had some flashes of it before then. You never want to assume the worst about someone, right? especially when you've been together for over a year and it was great.
> 
> Now, I really don't want to be with her anymore. Even if we make it through another year and she gets a job, every decision we make as a couple is agonizing, she always picks the most expensive option and sulks when she doesn't get it, and I'm always the one fixing things that don't work out.
> 
> Just NOT a good long term prospect for me.
> 
> There were a couple times this summer I'd take three kids to the pool by myself (including the baby) and realized it was STILL easier and more relaxing than having her there, ready to snap if I didn't jump when she wanted.
> 
> I think she realized something too, because she started objecting to my weekend outings alone with the kids, like she knew something must be off if I'd rather she wasn't there


Never mind (deleted question)

I see you have kids from another relationship. I skimmed too quickly and wondered who the other kids were.

The plot thickens a bit in that it’s possible she feels second place to your kids and your former relationship. Not that it’s true or that you make her feel that way, but she may feel that way. Do they like her?

Knowing this info now, it's not that I think her behavior towards you is fine. It's still not fine. But, I think you have just discovered that you're not compatible, and honestly? It sounds like she is interested in you as a provider, mainly. So...you have some things to think on, but if you're not compatible before marriage, it won't get better after.


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## Reluctant Texan

Lotsofheart73 said:


> She blames you for her living situation? Easy, get out and get a job and move into the city. That’s the life she wants, she needs to make it happen. She sounds like someone who is never satisfied.


That's what I want now too. thing is, she makes - at most - less than half what I do. And I'm hitting a point in my career that will be more lucrative. She knows she's going back to a lower standard of living, and now with a baby most of the time. And she knows I'm her best prospect, even though I can't deliver the standard of living she aspires to. 

I've tried to tell her that things will get better as we build a life together, and we're really just starting out, albeit later in life than either of us expected. She has like ZERO patience for that or understanding. It's in one ear and out the other. We've sat down to talk about our budget and what we can afford and can't, and by the next day she's impatient again she can't buy a new bike carrier for the baby, or that I won't consider that the $499 car seat (!!!) is "safer" than the $200 one I that had found...

so yeah. never happy. never enough. and it's always something I need to spend money on... never an inexpensive outing...


*Deidre* said:


> Never mind (deleted question)
> 
> I see you have kids from another relationship. I skimmed too quickly and wondered who the other kids were.


Yeah. They love her and have generally gotten along. They're good kids. And they play well with the baby and watch them and all get along.

it was only more recently (this passed spring and summer) she started picking fights with me in front of them, escalating fights, yelling for them to come in the room and daring me to yell at her in front of them, and screaming at them, and claiming (falsely) that I have a double standard in that I'm willing to yell at her in front of our baby, but not my other kids.

I've talked to them privately about it, and they told me it basically it was no big deal, and they see their mom and step dad fight way worse (which broke my heart in a way, for them going through **** in BOTH houses when I try to shield them from it).

I've also noticed she's generally more irritable when my other kids are with us, and a few times started suggesting I give up a weeknight with them a couple times a month "so I can help her more with the baby that night."

it's not good. I'm seeing the "evil stepmother" thing gradually creep out, I feel like. She denies all this though (I did not tell her she was being an evil stepmother).


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## *Deidre*

She knew what she was getting into. It's not unusual for jealousies and such to happen in these situations. Four kids are involved now, so I would do what's in their best interest above all else at this point. Less drama the better, whatever that looks like. 

If you leave her, make sure you really get to know someone in the future, before moving in together. Good luck with whatever you choose.


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## Openminded

My take on her is the same as it’s always been. She was closing in on 40 with a job that doesn’t pay well, didn’t have much in the way of savings because she spent it all traveling, and was wishing she had a baby. Then you came along and all her problems were solved. But now there are new problems for her to deal with and apparently she’s not good with that. What she expects in life is unreasonable but she may never see that so you have to decide how much therapy — if it gets that far — and time you’re going to allow before sorting custody and child support and sending her on her way.


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## SongoftheSouth

Reluctant Texan said:


> Today I finally told her I no longer see a future with her and I want her to get a job and move out.



This. It will never get better. You can prolong the misery or cut losses now. Wish I would have done that but I clung to a sinking ship for years. Forget about the counseling and cut the anchor off your neck


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## Affaircare

Reluctant Texan said:


> ... Today I finally told her I no longer see a future with her and I want her to get a job and move out. She went to pieces, sobbing hysterically, insisting this means I never wanted to be with her, etc.
> 
> She claims she's looking for therapists now.
> 
> I'm not sure really how to approach that.
> 
> as of maybe a month ago (we've been together for about 3 years) I still held out hope for our relationship. Now, not really anymore. I don't see a way back to earlier times when I wanted her and wanted to be with her.
> 
> I'm not sure how to approach counseling. Even if things calm down in the home front there are still all our other problems, and lack of cooperation and the damage done; I feel extra resentful she could withhold intimacy as she's done. To me that's just a really destructive thing to do to a relationship. it makes it totally one-sided and reveals just how selfish the other partner is.


@Reluctant Texan ,

I've read all you posts in this thread and your previous thread and you sound fairly reasonable, but I will let you know that I am aware there are always two sides to every story, and I suspect if she were here, it would sound a WHOLE lot different! Here's my opinion.

I believe you are wise to say you don't see a future with her. As she is now, I don't believe you or your children are in a healthy relationship with her--she's not a safe partner. 

I also don't see counseling as a way to save this either, because for counseling to be effective, she would have to want to LOOK AT HERSELF and figure out what she needs to change about herself. It doesn't sound like that is her mission. Thus, if you do want to go to counseling, I'd suggest approaching it as a way to work with a professional to adjust to the reality that you two are breaking up. 

She's CLEARLY unhappy. Okay, let her go and pursue her happiness. What DOESN'T happen is that she does not "get" to keep the baby, nor have you pay for her bachelorette pad. You two aren't married, but she does have your child and you have co-habited for quite some time, so I'd recommend you look at this in as fair and kind light as you can. Make it clear that the home you purchased (for her, ironically) is the FAMILY home, and that is where the family will be living. If she wants her little city apartment, you realize she'll need a sensible 2-bedroom apartment and a little money to "get her life going". Be realistic and look at what 2-bedrooms cost where she wants to go...and estimate what a conservative budget would be for say 3 months of her living expenses...not what she HOPES to spend left and right, but what would be nice and middle-of-the-road. And there you go--that is your figure. Start her off with that lump sum so she can GTFO, and actually go to your state's child support calculator and calculate what the legal requirement is, and just accept that's what you'll be contributing for CS. 

But before anyone goes anywhere, I'd say file a separation with a parenting plan, and make sure to get Temporary Orders. In your head, just carry on as you would if your "partner" had passed away. You'd be 100% responsible for your 1yo if that happened, so you'd find daycare or a nanny or something...right? Live exactly as if YOU were the sane and reasonable father completely capable of caring for the child all on your own. Because that is THE TRUTH!! 

And then let her go. "Partner, here's your freedom. Here's some money. Here's Temporary Orders." And yep if need be, take more time with your 1yo than 50/50! Let her take off. You'll have your home and your children and be out some money, but the freedom from the verbal and emotional abuse will be WELL WORTH IT.


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## DownByTheRiver

Reluctant Texan said:


> Hi all,
> I've written about some of the problems in my relationship before.
> 
> basically, they've continued (as predicted) and I'm at my breaking point much sooner than I had expected. I hoped to keep things together at least until my fiancee went back to work.
> 
> We have a 1 year old at home, and my partner is a very unhappy stay-at-home-mom.
> 
> Some have suggested she's depressed, and I could see that being the case. She has started making more of an effort to take our child to play dates and activities and get out of the house more, but it's never enough.
> 
> She does very little housework, other than what's absolutely required, and demands I help out more. Here's the thing with that: I already help out at home from the moment I come home from work until everyone else in the house is asleep. And sometimes after that I'm still up doing laundry and dishes, when they really piled up during the day.
> 
> We have trouble making decisions together, and when she doesn't get her way, she takes it out on me, and holds grudges (this seems to have factored in to our complete lack of intimacy... as I mention below).
> 
> I'm frustrated by this, and also her angry outbursts and attitude, and on top of all that, there's zero intimacy and she always has an excuse for avoiding it, often inconsistent or hypocritical. At this point, I simply don't believe her anymore or trust she's being honest with me, though she claims she it (actions speak louder than words).
> 
> When I've told her how I'm also unhappy and stressed (we're financially stretched and I'm the sole breadwinner) she will get angry and doesn't listen; she yells, polices my tone, changes the subject to something she's upset about, etc. Or she threatens to pick it up again and fight when my older kids (school-aged) are at our house "so they can hear how you talk" or threatens to yell and swear in front of them. Which is like a huge threat to me... I can't believe she goes there mentally, to threaten my other kids like that.
> 
> Then after having dealt with her outbursts for over a year now, she started more recently telling me I am moody and she's walking on eggshells around me!
> 
> Today I finally told her I no longer see a future with her and I want her to get a job and move out. She went to pieces, sobbing hysterically, insisting this means I never wanted to be with her, etc.
> 
> She claims she's looking for therapists now.
> 
> I'm not sure really how to approach that.
> 
> as of maybe a month ago (we've been together for about 3 years) I still held out hope for our relationship. Now, not really anymore. I don't see a way back to earlier times when I wanted her and wanted to be with her.
> 
> I'm not sure how to approach counseling. Even if things calm down in the home front there are still all our other problems, and lack of cooperation and the damage done; I feel extra resentful she could withhold intimacy as she's done. To me that's just a really destructive thing to do to a relationship. it makes it totally one-sided and reveals just how selfish the other partner is.


By all means, encourage her to therapy. You want your kids to have a healthy stable mother no matter what happens, right?


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## OnTheRocks

Do you have a lawyer? Married or not, you should be able to legally prevent her from moving the kids 5 hrs away. I live in Texas, and as backwards as our family law is, the courts support residency restrictions as stringent as requiring the child to remain in the same county. Your ex is free to move away, but can't take the kids with her.


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## Reluctant Texan

Thanks everyone. I have spoken with an attorney and gotten the numbers I'd be paying her in child support. I can afford it, but it's going to suck. 

of course, I could push for majority custody and have her pay me child support, but I'm not sure I'd get that, and not in a position to fight a long legal battle right now.


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## Reluctant Texan

Affaircare said:


> @Reluctant Texan ,
> 
> I've read all you posts in this thread and your previous thread and you sound fairly reasonable, but I will let you know that I am aware there are always two sides to every story, and I suspect if she were here, it would sound a WHOLE lot different! Here's my opinion.
> 
> I believe you are wise to say you don't see a future with her. As she is now, I don't believe you or your children are in a healthy relationship with her--she's not a safe partner.
> 
> I also don't see counseling as a way to save this either, because for counseling to be effective, she would have to want to LOOK AT HERSELF and figure out what she needs to change about herself. It doesn't sound like that is her mission. Thus, if you do want to go to counseling, I'd suggest approaching it as a way to work with a professional to adjust to the reality that you two are breaking up.
> 
> ...


Thanks.

Yeah, I've heard "her side of the story" when she complains to her mom about me... basically she leaves out everything she's done to provoke me into anger, and makes me sound like a monster.

I do wonder what her mom thinks. Her family likes me, and I've helped her mom out, and her younger brother (both financially and with advice), so I don't know if they're also assuming there are two sides to every story or just siding with their daughter/sister.

I'll take your advice on counseling. That's pretty much the first thing I plan to say "I want out of this relationship. I've had enough. I don't see a future here."


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## Openminded

She doesn’t want this to happen so be prepared for anything — including sex suddenly being back. Don’t give in or you’ll just prolong the inevitable.

Assume her family is siding with her because that’s usually how it goes — fair or not. I’m sure she’s spun a fine tale for them.


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## farsidejunky

Provoking your anger? That only happens if you allow it.

That said, I'm not taking her side, rather I'm holding you to task in what is clearly a flawed thought pattern: your emotions are yours to control.

Owning our **** is the first step towards fixing our ****. 


Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## Reluctant Texan

farsidejunky said:


> Provoking your anger? That only happens if you allow it.
> 
> That said, I'm not taking her side, rather I'm holding you to task in what is clearly a flawed thought pattern: your emotions are yours to control.
> 
> Owning our *** is the first step towards fixing our ***.
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


What I mean is, she'll normally start something, by exploding over some minor or perceived slight. And when I respond in kind, I'm "losing my temper" but it's not like I'm the one exploding in an otherwise calm situation.

It's often the first thing the in morning...

for example one saturday, upon waking up, she asked if I wanted to go into the city to get breakfast tacos.

I was still in bed and groggy and said I didn't feel like driving 15 miles just to get breakfast. That's it. That's all I said. 

She immediately stormed out of the bedroom, started swearing about "Sitting in this F***ing boring house all day" slamming the door, and started throwing things in the kitchen.

I yelled back "I'm not doing this Bullsh** again today" or something like that (since this kind of thing was happening on a weekly basis in those days), and of course she's back in face with comments like "don't talk to me like that" and "don't swear in front of our son"

So... yeah, I guess I'm losing my temper, but it's not happening in a vacuum, and it's in response to the same treatment directed at me.

I gather when she complains about me to others, she leaves out her tantrum, and just portrays this as me being boring and forcing her to sit around all day in the house and not go out and have fun (which in ALL cases requires us to spend more money than I think is reasonable.)

This is just one example. She's lost her mind over all sorts of other minor things, or annoyances that in my opinion an adult should just deal with or at best tell the other person calmly why they aren't happy with them. 

And She wasn't going to have us go to some food truck or hole-in-wall tacoría of course... we'd be going to some trendy place, getting more food than we can eat (and usually just throwing the excess away) + drinks, and it's like $70, and then she'll want to go somewhere else in the city, another $50-$100... etc. This is all against the backdrop of me pleading with her to be more reasonable with our spending b/c we were trying to buy a house.

You might say "Well, in that case sounds like it wasn't about the tacos, she's unhappy and BLA BLA BLA..."

and I get it. But I'm not happy either. And I don't treat other adults like she treats me, and I hate it and don't want to be around someone like that. Her "needing to feel heard" can't involve throwing a tantrum the second she "feels" that she's not going to get what she wants.


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## Openminded

So when does counseling start?


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## Reluctant Texan

Openminded said:


> So when does counseling start?


Apparently she found a tele-health psych in our area that agreed to see us both, individual sessions first. 

Maybe next week?

She's still going around the house telling me where she wants things, what I need to do, where we don't have space for my things, etc. and I'm biting my tongue, but want to say "Well, sure, but you're only going to be here for a couple more months, maybe a year, so don't get too comfortable."


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## Openminded

Don’t get her pregnant again.


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## Reluctant Texan

Openminded said:


> Don’t get her pregnant again.


I don't plan to.


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## Reluctant Texan

*Deidre* said:


> She knew what she was getting into. It's not unusual for jealousies and such to happen in these situations. Four kids are involved now, so I would do what's in their best interest above all else at this point. Less drama the better, whatever that looks like.
> 
> If you leave her, make sure you really get to know someone in the future, before moving in together. Good luck with whatever you choose.


Thank you, I appreciate that.

There are only 3 children total. Two older and the baby. 

I was thinking about this too, since sometimes she claims it's not fair to her to say "you knew what you were getting into" with respect to my older children and also the occasional issues w/my XW.

When I was dating I had some interest from women with kids, and wasn't opposed to it, but in all cases backed off when I realized their expectation was for me to move in with them and become the new caretaker there, rather than taking a "Brady Bunch" approach and creating a new family out of two. And if they expressed any annoyance with my own parenting obligations and schedule, I told them I didn't think we were compatible and moved on.

What I didn't do is move in with someone like that, then claim it was unfair to me and make everyone's life miserable.

I think now she was more desperate than she lead me to think, and had biological clock ticking issues she didn't deal with herself. And now when she gets frustrated with my situation and my older kids, and child support obligations, she can't deal with it like a mature adult.

Among other things, of course...


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## *Deidre*

Reluctant Texan said:


> Thank you, I appreciate that.
> 
> There are only 3 children total. Two older and the baby.
> 
> I was thinking about this too, since sometimes she claims it's not fair to her to say "you knew what you were getting into" with respect to my older children and also the occasional issues w/my XW.
> 
> When I was dating I had some interest from women with kids, and wasn't opposed to it, but in all cases backed off when I realized their expectation was for me to move in with them and become the new caretaker there, rather than taking a "Brady Bunch" approach and creating a new family out of two. And if they expressed any annoyance with my own parenting obligations and schedule, I told them I didn't think we were compatible and moved on.
> 
> What I didn't do is move in with someone like that, then claim it was unfair to me and make everyone's life miserable.
> 
> I think now she was more desperate than she lead me to think, and had biological clock ticking issues she didn't deal with herself. And now when she gets frustrated with my situation and my older kids, and child support obligations, she can't deal with it like a mature adult.
> 
> Among other things, of course...


Some men like to rescue women - she sounds like she’s looking for that kind of man. If you read threads on here posted by those types of men, they regretted not looking for equal partnerships and opting to be the rescuer and caretaker. My advice next time is to take more time to see the character of the person you’re dating before moving in together.

I’m guessing a lot based on your posts but I hope you and she find a way to end things amicably.


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## Cynthia

Responding to her with the same tone and intensity only makes things worse. You are answering a fool according to her folly, which puts you in the same position as her. If you want things to improve, take control of your responses and your emotions.

Her threatening emotional harm to your children has many layers to it, but bottom line is that she thinks that abusing your children is a good way to get what she wants. They are pawns to her. I think, overall, that you've been played by this woman. She pretended to care about you and your children and now she thinks she's got you in a position that you can't escape from. She sounds scary. I'd be concerned about what the next level looks like.

I wouldn't set her up in an apartment. I'd get an attorney, work on a custody agreement, and tell her that you will allow her to stay in your home until she saves up enough money from her job to get started in an apartment. In the meantime, she can sleep in the baby's room. Ask an attorney how to do that. You might have to give her an eviction notice. I'm not sure how it works when you aren't married. You're not asking her to get a job, you're telling her that she is moving out. Getting a job is an obvious part of that. If you get 50/50 custody, you won't have to pay a lot of child support and you'll be able to have him when you have your other children, so they can be together, as they ought to be.

Edit to add: I would absolutely push for joint custody, because of her use of your children as pawns to manipulate and control you. Your son needs to be away from her as much as possible and in a loving home environment as much as possible.


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## Openminded

I think she saw you as the solution to her problems and thought happily ever after was just around the corner. That’s not the way it works obviously but she doesn’t sound mature enough to deal with real life so there’s that. If she‘s on birth control she may think another baby will keep you despite your plan for no more. Be careful.


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## Reluctant Texan

Cynthia said:


> Responding to her with the same tone and intensity only makes things worse. You are answering a fool according to her folly, which puts you in the same position as her. If you want things to improve, take control of your responses and your emotions.


Well, I hold back a lot more than she does. While I get heated or raise my voice (it's for me hard not to, in a tense situation when the other person is yelling at me), I don't insult her _personally_, like she does to me. 

It's those insults that for me are the moments where she "drops the mask" so to speak, and really undermines her claims that she truly loves me and wants this to work out. 


Cynthia said:


> Her threatening emotional harm to your children has many layers to it, but bottom line is that she thinks that abusing your children is a good way to get what she wants. They are pawns to her. I think, overall, that you've been played by this woman. She pretended to care about you and your children and now she thinks she's got you in a position that you can't escape from. She sounds scary. I'd be concerned about what the next level looks like.


Yeah, I was really caught off guard the first time she threatened that. I couldn't believe she did it. 

I don't think she realizes she's been playing with fire everytime she brings that up, though I told her this: one of the reasons I left my ex-wife (among several) was because she would not stop fighting in front of our children. Once she was wound up, she'd yell, slam doors, throw things, etc., regardless of who was around. 

I left to give them a respite from that kind of behavior, so they'd see it as an aberration and know that it wasn't acceptable in a relationship. It's trashy behavior.

And now here we are...



Cynthia said:


> ...
> 
> Edit to add: I would absolutely push for joint custody, because of her use of your children as pawns to manipulate and control you. Your son needs to be away from her as much as possible and in a loving home environment as much as possible.


Thank you. I think I need to push for something like this. It's the best long-run outcome.



Openminded said:


> I think she saw you as the solution to her problems and thought happily ever after was just around the corner. That’s not the way it works obviously but she doesn’t sound mature enough to deal with real life so there’s that. If she‘s on birth control she may think another baby will keep you despite your plan for no more. Be careful.


She's been withholding it for several months, and at this point, I no longer have any interest in her. Gave up trying, in fact. I honestly think she misjudged me badly there again. 

Actually the lack of intimacy is the thing that convinced me there's no future. I don't know why, but that's the one thing where I'm like if you can be _that cold_ toward your partner's needs, there's really no relationship there. It's just you playing hardball and blackmail to get what you want, every day, for the rest of your lives together.

I'd understand if it was like a bad night, or we just fought, but to go on like that for months... unacceptable.

I've read the horror stories here and am not letting this go on for years.


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## farsidejunky

Reluctant Texan said:


> What I mean is, she'll normally start something, by exploding over some minor or perceived slight. And when I respond in kind, I'm "losing my temper" but it's not like I'm the one exploding in an otherwise calm situation.
> 
> It's often the first thing the in morning...
> 
> for example one saturday, upon waking up, she asked if I wanted to go into the city to get breakfast tacos.
> 
> I was still in bed and groggy and said I didn't feel like driving 15 miles just to get breakfast. That's it. That's all I said.
> 
> She immediately stormed out of the bedroom, started swearing about "Sitting in this F***ing boring house all day" slamming the door, and started throwing things in the kitchen.
> 
> I yelled back "I'm not doing this Bullsh** again today" or something like that (since this kind of thing was happening on a weekly basis in those days), and of course she's back in face with comments like "don't talk to me like that" and "don't swear in front of our son"
> 
> So... yeah, I guess I'm losing my temper, but it's not happening in a vacuum, and it's in response to the same treatment directed at me.
> 
> I gather when she complains about me to others, she leaves out her tantrum, and just portrays this as me being boring and forcing her to sit around all day in the house and not go out and have fun (which in ALL cases requires us to spend more money than I think is reasonable.)
> 
> This is just one example. She's lost her mind over all sorts of other minor things, or annoyances that in my opinion an adult should just deal with or at best tell the other person calmly why they aren't happy with them.
> 
> And She wasn't going to have us go to some food truck or hole-in-wall tacoría of course... we'd be going to some trendy place, getting more food than we can eat (and usually just throwing the excess away) + drinks, and it's like $70, and then she'll want to go somewhere else in the city, another $50-$100... etc. This is all against the backdrop of me pleading with her to be more reasonable with our spending b/c we were trying to buy a house.
> 
> You might say "Well, in that case sounds like it wasn't about the tacos, she's unhappy and BLA BLA BLA..."
> 
> and I get it. But I'm not happy either. And I don't treat other adults like she treats me, and I hate it and don't want to be around someone like that. Her "needing to feel heard" can't involve throwing a tantrum the second she "feels" that she's not going to get what she wants.


So you allowed her to elevate you to her emotional state. 

I am not sure if you realize this, but she needs your anger to justify her own frustrations. In other words, you matching her is fuel to her emotional fire. She needs it for her to justify elevating the defcon level. 

You should respond with boundary statements, delivered in a cool, firm, dispassionate manner:

*I'm sorry you feel that way. 

*I see it differently.

*I'm not okay with yelling.

*You do what you feel you have to do. I will do the same.

*Are you done?



Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## Reluctant Texan

farsidejunky said:


> So you allowed her to elevate you to her emotional state.
> 
> I am not sure if you realize this, but she needs your anger to justify her own frustrations. In other words, you matching her is fuel to her emotional fire. She needs it for her to justify elevating the defcon level.
> 
> You should respond with boundary statements, delivered in a cool, firm, dispassionate manner:
> 
> *I'm sorry you feel that way.
> 
> *I see it differently.
> 
> *I'm not okay with yelling.
> 
> *You do what you feel you have to do. I will do the same.
> 
> *Are you done?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


this feels like Deja Vu from the advice people gave me w/my ex-wife. 

I think sure, yeah, in some cases I could have handled it better. And there have been those times where I was calm & prepared and did. But also I don't want to have to be a professional psychologist in order to have a stable home life, and regardless of how I respond, I don't want to be with someone who behaves like she does and escalates conflicts (including threatening children in the way she does). And I'm not always mentally in a position to de-escalate and remain calm, especially when her behavior is over-the-top and we're in the car on the way to a family vacation, for example.,

Why spend the rest of my life caretaking an emotional basketcase/blackmailer when I could just... *not do that*? 

I appreciate the advice, and I agree remaining calm is always the best answer. I frequently do it at work when I'm working with stupid/naive/aggressive people who don't appreciate my advice or recommendations. I just don't want my home life to be as frought with conflict as my workplace. I can't relax when I'm home because of her attitude, and temperament. 

Just walking around the house while working from home today, and thinking I could be living here *without her *made me feel a little guilty over how excited that made me.


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## Openminded

She may have been withholding lately but when she realizes you’re ready to end it she could change her mind about that. So be prepared and be careful.


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## Cynthia

Reluctant Texan said:


> this feels like Deja Vu from the advice people gave me w/my ex-wife.
> 
> I think sure, yeah, in some cases I could have handled it better. And there have been those times where I was calm & prepared and did. But also I don't want to have to be a professional psychologist in order to have a stable home life, and regardless of how I respond, I don't want to be with someone who behaves like she does and escalates conflicts (including threatening children in the way she does). And I'm not always mentally in a position to de-escalate and remain calm, especially when her behavior is over-the-top and we're in the car on the way to a family vacation, for example.,
> 
> Why spend the rest of my life caretaking an emotional basketcase/blackmailer when I could just... *not do that*?


Following @farsidejunky's advice isn't the same as caretaking. It is about you not matching evil for evil, thus not escalating the negative situation further. That kind of energy around your children is bad for them. It is important to do everything in your power to protect them. Plus, you don't need that kind of energy in your life either. Feeding it only makes it grow.

Of course, you feel justified, but it's not about that. It's about what you are going to energize in your life. Are you going to energize the negative and empower her to do so as well? Or are you going to put up a wall and not let it penitrate or grow further? This is your choice. She is living with you and will be for at least a few more months, if not longer, until you get this straightened out. I advise that you get this taken care of asap. Do not delay in getting it resolved, so you can have a peaceful home for yourself and your children. They are counting on you.


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## LisaDiane

Reluctant Texan said:


> this feels like Deja Vu from the advice people gave me w/my ex-wife.
> 
> I think sure, yeah, in some cases I could have handled it better. And there have been those times where I was calm & prepared and did. But also I don't want to have to be a professional psychologist in order to have a stable home life, and regardless of how I respond, I don't want to be with someone who behaves like she does and escalates conflicts (including threatening children in the way she does). And I'm not always mentally in a position to de-escalate and remain calm, especially when her behavior is over-the-top and we're in the car on the way to a family vacation, for example.,
> 
> Why spend the rest of my life caretaking an emotional basketcase/blackmailer when I could just... *not do that*?
> 
> I appreciate the advice, and I agree remaining calm is always the best answer. I frequently do it at work when I'm working with stupid/naive/aggressive people who don't appreciate my advice or recommendations. I just don't want my home life to be as frought with conflict as my workplace. I can't relax when I'm home because of her attitude, and temperament.
> 
> Just walking around the house while working from home today, and thinking I could be living here *without her *made me feel a little guilty over how excited that made me.


If your wife was like your fiance, maybe you need to think about why you are drawn to emotionally volatile, immature women as partners.

The advice is not to "fix" her when she is having a tantrum, @farsidejunky is telling you NOT TO ENGAGE HER. That's all. And not for her benefit, for YOURS.

When you remain objective and view her as a 2yr-old having a temper tantrum, you maintain your "frame" in the relationship as the adult and the one who has control. This will benefit you and your children immensely.

Would you ever think it was productive to verbally spar with a child who was yelling and screaming because they didn't get what they wanted? Of course not, you wouldn't waste your time. So you need to treat your fiance the same way -- don't try to make her aware of your feelings about her attitude, because she does not care at all, she is selfish and infantile. Just ignore her and remove yourself so that she cannot use you as a verbal punching bag, and stay away until she is willing to act like an adult.

What you should feel in order to keep yourself in the best mindset for your children is detached objectivity, like she is a toy that wound itself up - "oh gee, that thing is spinning again, let me get out of the way until it stops".
That's your only hope to minimize the conflict.


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## Reluctant Texan

Well, FWIW, I did not see any similarities between my fiancee and my XW. I was just saying the advice to minimize conflict is similar.

We're going to try counseling. She told me, unprompted she is going to work on her behavior and admitted she knows she's been wrong and out of line, and that she has been THE problem in our relationship. 

She stopped trying to deflect and blame me in our last conversation. All I told her is I agreed to try, and I don't hate her. 

though all last week I DID hate her. I don't know how exactly I feel right now; if I weighed the good against the bad, how I'd feel. The good times seem so remote, and the bad times are much fresher in my memory.


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