# Daughter Says Shes Isn't Important to Me



## HumbledStriver (Sep 22, 2012)

My daughter is graduating HS in May. She is going to nearby college. I've been helping her with registration, etc. I've been separated since 05. Divorced since 06. I went overboard (my view) protecting my daughter from "pain" during and after divorce. Spoiled her. I don't feel she respects me. Her mother and I not on good terms. I remarried 11 months ago. My wife and I are living back and forth in two states for a time. Her son graduates in June. My daughter picked dates for college orientation. I told her when she let me know (this was some time ago) I was planing on being gone then (for step-son's grad). Orientation packet came with the conflicting dates. I reminded (in email about the material) her I planned on being out of state that week. Offered she could go with her mom, her future roommate or by herself (she's capable) if she didn't want to reschedule. She blasted txt back saying it was the two most important days of her summer and she wasn't going to change her dates to accommodate my travel (even though shifting by a mere two days would do it). She said if it meant enough to me I'd be there. I sent her orientation dates that would work for me. No word from her. Am I wrong for thinking she should move her dates and not put me in the position of choosing on or the other?


----------



## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

50/50

Neither of you is right or wrong. However, she's at an age where everything is magnified in her mind, and she's thinking in very black and white terms. There is the right thing to do (her way) and everything else is wrong. There's not much room for gray areas. 

If you put your foot down and INSIST on her changing it, and do it with the reminder that you love her and it's important to you to be there, but say that you cannot reschedule, it will produce a bigger fight in the beginning and more appreciation later, I suspect. 

On the other hand, it could go the opposite way and she could cling to how mean you were. 

Unfortunately, she's just at that age....

The good news is she'll outgrow it in another five or six years.


----------



## Enginerd (May 24, 2011)

It doesn't matter if she's wrong and the circumstances of your divorce are not relevant. She will always be the victim of the divorce. She's basically being told she's your second priority.


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

You told her beforehand about the conflict so, yes, she could (and should) move the dates.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Speak to her message, HERS, not the message you are hearing.

What you think you hear: You were wrong to not keep your schedule open for me.

WhatI think her message is: I need to know I'm still the most important thing in your life. I need you to reassure me that I'm still your baby girl.

Can you address her message, reassure her, and get the dates changed? Yes, if you do it in that order.


----------



## Wiltshireman (Jan 23, 2013)

Even without the complications that blended families can bring we all face conflicting scheduling priorities. I our house we have a weekly planner on the wall and a diary hanging next to it and we are all supposed to check these before we book anything else but even with a process and the best will in the world sometimes you want to be in two places at once.

In the situation that you face I would just tell your daughter that you love her and would like to be with her but as you cannot make the date she has be given. Remind her that you did give her your dates in advance and that if she can reschedule you will go with her; reassure her off your continued love and support.

She might not see things your way in the short term but try not to let it affect your long term relationship.


----------



## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> 50/50
> 
> Neither of you is right or wrong. However, she's at an age where everything is magnified in her mind, and she's thinking in very black and white terms. There is the right thing to do (her way) and everything else is wrong. There's not much room for gray areas.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

But keep in mind her age.

I think he should change his date and go visit her. She is the victim of divorce and she is essentially being told "sorry I cant do it this time because you come in 2nd". This is hard for kids to understand EVEN if they are the one who mismanaged the time.

You should always be there for your child, AND she is at an age where there is a good chance (if they are not close) that she will be angry at him for this and NOT understand.


----------



## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

Enginerd said:


> It doesn't matter if she's wrong and the circumstances of your divorce are not relevant. She will always be the victim of the divorce. She's basically being told she's your second priority.


This^^ is how kids see it. She says these 2 days are the most important days of the summer to her. HELLO! What she is wanting is to see that he will go above and beyond for her and be there. 

Its the little things that mean the most to kids especially girls. A little thing like being there during this date. I say this affects girls more, because I grew up with an older brother and sisters and me and my brother would not have been bothered if our parents could not make it to orientation for college. Heck I went to a college orientation with a friend once and no parents. While my sisters would of been upset if our parents could not go with them.


----------



## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Goldmember357 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> But keep in mind her age.
> 
> ...


I understand why people feel he should change the date, and yes, it would produce a better response from her and help her feel she's still his number 1. However, it will have a negative effect on others. In my opinion, she needs to learn to give, too. He said he's been very indulgent. 

My stepdaughter of a similar age has been indulged by her dad a bunch, while my own children were not. He has a better relationship with her than I had with my kids at the same ages, but she's a mess... moved out, doing drugs, working crazy awful hours just to pay her mother's bills, no real hope of college because she's skipping school and failing classes. She My kids are now in their 20s and struggling, but never to the extent she is. Perhaps she'll come around, but as of right now, she's continuing to be the spoiled princess and it has been getting worse. I hope the OP doesn't let that happen.


----------



## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

They divorced 6 years ago and she's behaving like a spoiled princess. A graduation trumps college orientation especially since she could change the dates she chooses not to.

She's not the center of the universe.


----------



## Enginerd (May 24, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> They divorced 6 years ago and she's behaving like a spoiled princess. A graduation trumps college orientation especially since she could change the her dates she chooses not to.
> 
> She's not the center of the universe.



Correct. That would be his new wife.


----------



## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Enginerd said:


> Correct. That would be his new wife.


I know that. People were saying she's a child of divorce. Yes for 6 years. It's not like the blended family got dumped on him the day after the D was final is my point.


----------



## Ano (Jun 7, 2012)

*Re: Re: Daughter Says Shes Isn't Important to Me*



Enginerd said:


> It doesn't matter if she's wrong and the circumstances of your divorce are not relevant. She will always be the victim of the divorce. She's basically being told she's your second priority.


I agree. She is your daughter. Put her first. College is a big step for her. Be flattered that its important to her to have you there with her.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

She's going to university to learn. She's already learning that she's not the center of the universe, that everyone has obligations, and no one can or will accommodate her at all times. 
If she's old enough to attend university, she's old enough to attend orientation alone, to arrange an alternate, or to adjust her travel dates. 
Her folks got divorced and that was awful. Suck it up and drive on. Other bad things are going to happen in her life. She will meet students at college who are blind, some missing limbs, some who left their homes overseas and won't see their parents for four years, some who have to visit their parents in a cemetery. She's going to get tough and use the blessings she's been given or those who refuse to be victims are going to be her boss. She should have left this manipulative wounded princess routine around age 12. 
While this darling goes to college, other girls her age are sucking sand and dodging bullets in Afghanistan. If she woke up with both arms, both legs, two live parents, adequate food and shelter, in a free country, she's blessed beyond belief. Life is harsh and it doesn't get easier, especially for whiners. She needs to tuck that lower lip back, lose the attitude, and learn to appreciate being one of the privileged few.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Ano said:


> I agree. She is your daughter. Put her first. College is a big step for her. Be flattered that its important to her to have you there with her.


I don't know. Sure strikes me a dancing to her tune.

He told her the dates of the step brothers graduation (a date that can't be changed). Did it months in advance. She gets her dates. Dates that are movable. She refuses to move them and then tells her dad its him or me. She is creating the drama then demanding that he solve it.

I understand that divorce is hard. I don't know what else has gone on in the OPs relationship with his daughter. But jumping to this sure seems like a recipe for encouraging this sort of behavior from her. Whenever she wants her way, does she get to pull this card? When does it end?


----------



## Enginerd (May 24, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> She's going to university to learn. She's already learning that she's not the center of the universe, that everyone has obligations, and no one can or will accommodate her at all times.
> If she's old enough to attend university, she's old enough to attend orientation alone, to arrange an alternate, or to adjust her travel dates.
> Her folks got divorced and that was awful. Suck it up and drive on. Other bad things are going to happen in her life. She will meet students at college who are blind, some missing limbs, some who left their homes overseas and won't see their parents for four years, some who have to visit their parents in a cemetery. She's going to get tough and use the blessings she's been given or those who refuse to be victims are going to be her boss. She should have left this manipulative wounded princess routine around age 12.
> While this darling goes to college, other girls her age are sucking sand and dodging bullets in Afghanistan. If she woke up with both arms, both legs, two live parents, adequate food and shelter, in a free country, she's blessed beyond belief. Life is harsh and it doesn't get easier, especially for whiners. She needs to tuck that lower lip back, lose the attitude, and learn to appreciate being one of the privileged few.


I hate whiners as well. I was the child of multiple divorces and was out on my ass at 15 with no support. Thankfully my grandparents picked up the slack. However, comparing this situation to world hunger does not invalidate his daughter feelings. The "she should be thankful for her priviledged life" argument could be applied to the majority of the posts here so if that's that's case what's the point of this forum? 

She very well may be an entitled princess, but she's his princess. She cried out a bit irrationally for his support and he showed his real colors. He won't be able to take that back.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

It should be a mandatory part of anyone's higher education for them to travel through and perform some service in the 3rd world. If English is your native language, you aren't having a bad day, especially if you are female. Your sisters in other countries are sold into prostitution by their fathers, sometimes killed at birth because they have a vagina, subjected to genital mutilation, sometimes promised in marriage as children, and most of the rest live in abject poverty. Girls are killed or maimed in Afghanistan for the crime of just trying to go to elementary school. The life of an average "oppressed" American young lady is something most of the world doesn't even dare to dream about. We should seriously drop to our knees every morning and give thanks. If the OP could take his daughter somewhere, it ought to be to India, Pakistan, or anyplace in Africa.


----------



## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

HumbledStriver said:


> My daughter is graduating HS in May. She is going to nearby college. I've been helping her with registration, etc. I've been separated since 05. Divorced since 06. I went overboard (my view) protecting my daughter from "pain" during and after divorce. Spoiled her. I don't feel she respects me. Her mother and I not on good terms. I remarried 11 months ago. My wife and I are living back and forth in two states for a time. Her son graduates in June. My daughter picked dates for college orientation. I told her when she let me know (this was some time ago) I was planing on being gone then (for step-son's grad). Orientation packet came with the conflicting dates. I reminded (in email about the material) her I planned on being out of state that week. Offered she could go with her mom, her future roommate or by herself (she's capable) if she didn't want to reschedule. She blasted txt back saying it was the two most important days of her summer and she wasn't going to change her dates to accommodate my travel (even though shifting by a mere two days would do it). She said if it meant enough to me I'd be there. I sent her orientation dates that would work for me. No word from her. Am I wrong for thinking she should move her dates and not put me in the position of choosing on or the other?




Yes. Sorry. You're wrong.

See...you don't pick the 11 month relationship with Step-son/new-wife over the 18 or so year relationship with your daughter.

And that's how she'll view this

And yeah, no doubt she's TESTING you in a sense, seeing if you'll pick her over them

Admittedly this isn't wise or noble behavior on her part...but I would never expect or demand wise and noble sentiments from a young girl whose family was broken up against her will, and whose father is building a new life and seemingly 'replacing' her

In her mind she wants some proof that you'd pick her "life milestone" over step-son's milestone

And honesty, you should

I mean, does he really want you there? That has not been my general experience regarding these kinds of situations (so my guess is that your attendance is more a want of his mother's than his)

Anyway, you'll do as you will, but do know: she will hold this against you and add it to the pile of resentment fodder she probably already has fairly stacked.

I didn't think you handled that facebook photo issue in a manner beneficial to your relationship with her

This won't help matters.


----------



## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

Enginerd said:


> I hate whiners as well. I was the child of multiple divorces and was out on my ass at 15 with no support. Thankfully my grandparents picked up the slack. However, comparing this situation to world hunger does not invalidate his daughter feelings. The "she should be thankful for her priviledged life" argument could be applied to the majority of the posts here so if that's that's case what's the point of this forum?
> 
> She very well may be an entitled princess, *but she's his princess. *She cried out a bit irrationally for his support and he showed his real colors. He won't be able to take that back.


:iagree:



IndiaInk said:


> Yes. Sorry. You're wrong.
> 
> *See...you don't pick the 11 month relationship with Step-son/new-wife over the 18 or so year relationship with your daughter.*
> 
> ...


All of this.

This is how kids see it.


----------



## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Wonder if she'd throw a fit if the schedule conflict had nothing to do with the new wife or kid?


----------



## Ano (Jun 7, 2012)

*Re: Re: Daughter Says Shes Isn't Important to Me*



Tall Average Guy said:


> I don't know. Sure strikes me a dancing to her tune.
> 
> He told her the dates of the step brothers graduation (a date that can't be changed). Did it months in advance. She gets her dates. Dates that are movable. She refuses to move them and then tells her dad its him or me. She is creating the drama then demanding that he solve it.
> 
> I understand that divorce is hard. I don't know what else has gone on in the OPs relationship with his daughter. But jumping to this sure seems like a recipe for encouraging this sort of behavior from her. Whenever she wants her way, does she get to pull this card? When does it end?


I see what you're saying but im sure when she recieved the dates of her orientation, the last thing she thought about was her step brothers graduation. She was probably super excited to be starting college that she picked the first available dates for orientation because she is absolutely ecstatic about this new chapter in her life. I do not think that she did this on purpose.


----------



## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I don't know. Sure strikes me a dancing to her tune.
> 
> He told her the dates of the *step brothers* graduation (a date that can't be changed). Did it months in advance. She gets her dates. Dates that are movable. She refuses to move them and then tells her dad its him or me. She is creating the drama then demanding that he solve it.
> 
> I understand that divorce is hard. I don't know what else has gone on in the OPs relationship with his daughter. But jumping to this sure seems like a recipe for encouraging this sort of behavior from her. Whenever she wants her way, does she get to pull this card? When does it end?


Funny...the word step-brother just instantly felt wrong to me when viewing this from the perspective of his daughter

I guarantee you she doesn't see him as her step-brother...

How could she?

She's known him a very short time, while being under duress and consumed with a heap of other negative feelings/unhappiness

And they're both older kids who never knew each other in those formative years that really make children 'siblings'

Neither of whom (I'm assuming) wanted this to happen

It's simply unfair for two adults who decided that just because they love each other they must force sentimentality onto people who had no choice or voice in being 'very technically' rendered 'family'

You just can't force it...it can never be genuine unless it's voluntarily/naturally felt...and yet parents try to do this all the time


----------



## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

My college was pretty far away and it didn't even occur to me having a parent there to hold my hand. I didn't do an orientation. I know they had them but it seemed pretty silly to me.


----------



## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> It should be a mandatory part of anyone's higher education for them to travel through and perform some service in the 3rd world. If English is your native language, you aren't having a bad day, especially if you are female. Your sisters in other countries are sold into prostitution by their fathers, sometimes killed at birth because they have a vagina, subjected to genital mutilation, sometimes promised in marriage as children, and most of the rest live in abject poverty. Girls are killed or maimed in Afghanistan for the crime of just trying to go to elementary school. The life of an average "oppressed" American young lady is something most of the world doesn't even dare to dream about. We should seriously drop to our knees every morning and give thanks. If the OP could take his daughter somewhere, it ought to be to India, Pakistan, or anyplace in Africa.


Just because other people have it bad in the world doesn't mean the OP's daughter can't feel bad about her situation. If we apply your logic to the notion of happiness then I shouldn't ever be happy with my life because there are people in the world who have mansions, fancy cars, private planes, household staff and more money they can count. Why should I be happy because obviously there are people who have more of a reason to be happier than me?


----------



## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> She's going to university to learn. She's already learning that she's not the center of the universe, that everyone has obligations, and no one can or will accommodate her at all times.
> If she's old enough to attend university, she's old enough to attend orientation alone, to arrange an alternate, or to adjust her travel dates.
> Her folks got divorced and that was awful. Suck it up and drive on. Other bad things are going to happen in her life. She will meet students at college who are blind, some missing limbs, some who left their homes overseas and won't see their parents for four years, some who have to visit their parents in a cemetery. She's going to get tough and use the blessings she's been given or those who refuse to be victims are going to be her boss. She should have left this manipulative wounded princess routine around age 12.
> While this darling goes to college, other girls her age are sucking sand and dodging bullets in Afghanistan. If she woke up with both arms, both legs, two live parents, adequate food and shelter, in a free country, she's blessed beyond belief. Life is harsh and it doesn't get easier, especially for whiners. She needs to tuck that lower lip back, lose the attitude, and learn to appreciate being one of the privileged few.


Yeah sorry, but you just can't use this kinda sweeping argument randomly.

If you yourself have ever posted one thread in which you shared a personal complaint, then presumably you don't believe that in light of the great suffering present in the world your own pain and unhappiness is utterly invalidated.

Surely then, sneering at another while applying that massive yard-stick to their issue simply wouldn't be fair.

I do actually think 'the third world' vs 'first world' argument (and just the general collective suffering that the rest of humanity endures)...does become a *legitimate argument* in cases where people begin to be completely mired in their own (me, me, me) misery. Because fundamentally, that 'dieased' state is caused by an extremely self-focused consideration of the world...and the ONLY cure for it...is to start thinking about the pains/perspectives/well-being of others

And someday...the OPs daughter might very well find herself in that camp

But given that this is all still very new, given her age and the transitional nature of this time in life, and given the fact that her father and his wife have perhaps exacerbated her ill-feelings by their past decisions...she gets some slack here.

Anyway, there's no doubt that saying _"suck it up princess, you can go to your orientation alone"_ would be an ABSOLUTE AND TOTALLY SELF-DEFEATING thing for the OP do to in this already fractured relationship


----------



## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

HumbledStriver - I remember posting to you before. I remember you said your daughter posted a picture of you, her mother (your ex) and you to her Facebook page as her family (which it is..you and your ex are her family), and your new wife overreacted insisting your daughter take the picture down. Your current wife wanted the picture taken down because she felt that you weren't part of that family any longer. But as I told you then, you and your ex will always be your daughter's family regardless of the divorce. You both have biological ties to her and your new wife has to realize that without getting jealous. So in light of the way your wife treats your daughter, I can only imagine that if you skip out on this orientation to go with your wife to HER son's event, your daughter is going to be heartbroken.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

The world is not defined by the opinions or feelings of 17 year old girls and if she feels a little disappointed (heaven forbid), the earth will still turn, the sun will rise, the birds will sing, and life will continue. 
Dismissing every positive thing this man has ever done for her because she can't have absolutely everything she wants is childish, selfish, and yielding to it will only insure this ugly behavior will be repeated the next time something doesn't go Her Majesty's way. 
Someday, this entitlement queen is going to be married to some poor, hapless wretch. Unless she learns pretty quickly that the sun doesn't rise and set on her backside, that as-yet unnamed poor sap is going to have a very hard time.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

College orientation is NOT important. You walk around campus until your feet ache, you sit through hours of information you've heard dozens of times already from your college councilors, you get a bunch of current students trying to sell you shirts and get you to live on campus, and then you go home. 

It's NOT important. It's NOT a big deal. The girl needs to grow up. The OP's stepson was _graduating_....which IS a big deal. His stepfather should be there to support him. Moreover, graduation dates are dictated to the students. Orientation days can be changed, even at the last minute. I had to change mine more than once. And after I went through orientation? I wished I hadn't gone at all. It was a pointless waste of time that made me even more frustrated and stressed and confused than before I went. 

If she REALLY wanted him there, she would have realized that he had a previous engagement that he told her about well in advance. She chose to be difficult and throw a hissy fit just to cause drama.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

She's 17. He's worked her entire life to feed her, clothe her, provide her with housing, medical care, vacations, and God knows what else. All that apparently means nothing if he can't say "yes" this one time. By the time I was 17, I'd been working 3 years to help my parents with expenses. I had to join the Army to go to college. My parents couldn't have afforded it. It wouldn't have crossed my mind to ask my parents for more. 
This is how these American Princesses are coronated. Odds are, if he did go, she'd latch on to some new friends within 15 minutes of her arrival and wouldn't want him in the vicinity.


----------



## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> The world is not defined by the opinions or feelings of 17 year old girls and if she feels a little disappointed (heaven forbid), the earth will still turn, the sun will rise, the birds will sing, and life will continue.
> Dismissing every positive thing this man has ever done for her because she can't have absolutely everything she wants is childish, selfish, and yielding to it will only insure this ugly behavior will be repeated the next time something doesn't go Her Majesty's way.
> Someday, this entitlement queen is going to be married to some poor, hapless wretch. Unless she learns pretty quickly that the sun doesn't rise and set on her backside, that as-yet unnamed poor sap is going to have a very hard time.


You're really going overboard in your posts. I'm not sure where it's coming from. Perhaps this thread triggered something for you. There's no reason to extrapolate this to absurd degrees as you've done or to think so badly of this young girl. And I've read the original poster's previous posts. His wife (the stepmom) treats his daughter poorly. The new wife made the daughter take down a photo of her with the father because it bothered the new wife. Given that family dynamic, I wonder how many other things happen in this family where the daughter is made to like she's no longer important to her father.

Of course she should have managed her time, but guess what..young people mismanage their time. I KNOW, I know..the wonderful adults on TAM haven't done that at that age but there are others in that age group who have. I think there's a middle ground he could explore. Perhaps doing something with just her or having a real heart to hear talk with her. But I think the original poster's posts show a common theme. He generally seems to side with his new wife over whatever his daughter wants.


----------



## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

Created2Write said:


> College orientation is NOT important. You walk around campus until your feet ache, you sit through hours of information you've heard dozens of times already from your college councilors, you get a bunch of current students trying to sell you shirts and get you to live on campus, and then you go home.
> 
> It's NOT important. It's NOT a big deal. The girl needs to grow up. The OP's stepson was _graduating_....which IS a big deal. His stepfather should be there to support him. Moreover, graduation dates are dictated to the students. Orientation days can be changed, even at the last minute. I had to change mine more than once. And after I went through orientation? I wished I hadn't gone at all. It was a pointless waste of time that made me even more frustrated and stressed and confused than before I went.
> 
> If she REALLY wanted him there, she would have realized that he had a previous engagement that he told her about well in advance. She chose to be difficult and throw a hissy fit just to cause drama.


It's not important to you. That's fine. But you can't say what's important to someone else. And the stepson is his stepson for 11 months. This is his biological daughter of 18 years. It's not an apples to apples comparison.


----------



## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> *College orientation is NOT important.* You walk around campus until your feet ache, you sit through hours of information you've heard dozens of times already from your college councilors, you get a bunch of current students trying to sell you shirts and get you to live on campus, and then you go home.
> 
> *It's NOT important. It's NOT a big deal.* The girl needs to grow up. The OP's stepson was _graduating_....which IS a big deal. *His stepfather should be there to support him. *Moreover, graduation dates are dictated to the students. Orientation days can be changed, even at the last minute. I had to change mine more than once. And after I went through orientation? I wished I hadn't gone at all. It was a pointless waste of time that made me even more frustrated and stressed and confused than before I went.
> 
> If she REALLY wanted him there, she would have realized that he had a previous engagement that he told her about well in advance. She chose to be difficult and throw a hissy fit just to cause drama.


Umm....WOW.

Just WOW

I echo Coffeeamore entirely.

And it is FANTASTICALLY presumptuous of you to dictate in so summarily a fashion what *is* and* is not* important to_ this _girl (who IS NOT YOU), and who, by every indication is certainly demonstrating that* her* father's attendance at *her *college orientation (which WILL BE FILLED WITH THE FATHERS OF OTHER STUDENTS) is IMPORTANT _*to HER*_.

You're also failing to 'place her drama' into ANY semblance of CONTEXT

And context IS EVERYTHING

She is a YOUNG girl transitioning to college


Her father has been remarried for* LESS THAN A YEAR*

To a woman who was so seemingly *jealous and insecure* that she *DEMANDED* that he have his daughter remove facebook photos of : Himself, His ex-wife and His Daughter standing together as some vestige of her *forever lost* family-unit at her High School Graduation

And he complied with this demand...causing much consternation and grief to said daughter


So while it's seemingly very lovely for you to insist that his: for "LESS THAN AN ENTIRE YEAR" step-father be present at Step-son's graduation (and I* seriously doubt* that this step-son even wants his 'step-father' present...based on a TON of life experience suggesting the ABSOLUTE CONTRARY) we are already talking about a STRAINED family dynamic and family life in which this father has UTTERLY SIDED WITH NEW WIFEY's WISHES (and by extension NEW STEP-SON's) upon an issue that mattered a great deal to his daughter...

(I.E. ONE WOMAN in his life had her completely IRRATIONAL, disgracefully JEALOUS 'hissy-fit' WIN at the expense of his daughter)

If he continues to show overwhelming prejudice in the favor of this 'new family' he will undoubtlly create an irreaparable rift with his daughter

perhaps that is a price he is willing to pay in his effort to appease his new wife

and in that case, he should undoubtledly take your advice


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

From your other threads this seems a lot more complicated than this one issue, this sounds like something that has compounded her fears rather than caused.


----------



## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

HumbledStriver said:


> Am I wrong for thinking she should move her dates and not put me in the position of choosing on or the other?


You're not wrong. And you're not choosing. She is. You told her the two days out of the entire summer that you could not be at her orientation. That's reasonable.

Her choosing the only two days you gave her for being unavailable, and then refusing to change them, is unreasonable. I wouldn't change your dates. If she really wants you there, she can easily reschedule. This is a sh!t test.


----------



## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

IndiaInk said:


> And it is FANTASTICALLY presumptuous of you to dictate in so summarily a fashion what *is* and* is not* important to_ this _girl (who IS NOT YOU), and who, by every indication is certainly demonstrating that* her* father's attendance at *her *college orientation (which WILL BE FILLED WITH THE FATHERS OF OTHER STUDENTS) is IMPORTANT _*to HER*_.


What is presumptuous, and unhelpful, is to elevate the concerns of a teenage girl above what they are (the concerns of a teenage girl). There is such a thing as *objective reality*. And teenage girls, and many internet commenters, have a remarkably poor grasp of it.

Teenage girls worry about zits. That doesn't mean that zits are important. Teenage girls worry about whether the Jonas Brothers are going to break up. That doesn't mean that the Jonas Brothers are important.

And having parents that elevate their concerns into seemingly important issues isn't helpful to these girls. One of the core lessons that children must learn before becoming adults is that the world doesn't care that much about them. They must learn that their concerns are usually insignificant to most of those around them. Otherwise, they just spend their lives as unproductive narcissists.



> Her parents have VERY RECENTLY dissolved HER FAMILY UNIT (and she had ZERO 'say so' or 'control' in that unhappy process)
> 
> Could anyone REASONABLY suggest that this is not a TRAUMATIC experience?


Her parents separated 8 years ago. You consider something that happened in 2005 to be "very recent?" I don't think that word means what you think it means.

I know that divorce is traumatic. But this girl has had a long time to get used to her new reality. At some point, she's got to let go of the excuse that she's a child of divorce, so she is allowed to act like a spoiled brat.



> Her father has been remarried for* LESS THAN A YEAR*
> 
> To a woman who was so seemingly *jealous and insecure* that she *DEMANDED* that he have his daughter remove facebook photos of : Himself, His ex-wife and His Daughter standing together as some vestige of her *forever lost* family-unit at her High School Graduation
> 
> And he complied with this demand...causing much consternation and grief to said daughter


And that's not cool. But that's a separate issue. He behaved unreasonably by asking his daughter to take down a picture of her with her parents. But that doesn't mean that his penance is that he must comply with his daughter's unreasonable demands from now on. He should apologize for his actions and behave reasonably in the future. And that includes respecting his daughter's choice not to have him at her orientation.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Coffee Amore said:


> It's not important to you. That's fine. But you can't say what's important to someone else. And the stepson is his stepson for 11 months. This is his biological daughter of 18 years. It's not an apples to apples comparison.


Orientation dates can change, though. If it was _really_ important to _her_ to have him there, should would have realized that he had a previous engagement, and she would have changed the dates. Not just thrown a hissy fit and expect his world to revolve around what she wants.

If the stepson had been going to his orientation, then yes, I would have said the dad should have gone to the daughters. Or if they both were graduating, I would say he should have gone to the daughters. But orientation dates aren't set it stone. If it was that important, she would have found any way to get her dad there.

If I desperately wanted my dad at my orientation, I would change the date if need be. I don't think she wanted him there as much as she wanted to cause drama.


----------



## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

_What is presumptuous, and unhelpful, is to elevate the concerns of a teenage girl above what they are (the concerns of a teenage girl). There is such a thing as *objective reality*. And teenage girls, and many internet commenters, have a remarkably poor grasp of it._


No PTHlump...there is absolutely NO such thing as objective reality

Not for ANY of US

That is not a question of age or gender

That is simply an intrinsic element of being a human

And I think much strife in marriages and the world at large stems from two people each assuming their own reality is the objective one.

_Teenage girls worry about zits. That doesn't mean that zits are important. Teenage girls worry about whether the Jonas Brothers are going to break up. That doesn't mean that the Jonas Brothers are important._

That is a wondrously broad brush with which to paint every single teenager.

Just yesterday I was reading an article on how different age groups deal with knowing that they are terminally ill, one of things that struck me was:_ "teenagers must be included in all decision-making processes surrounding their deaths. Many are capable of great courage, grace and dignity in facing death."_

All of this information was the result of demographic studies. Anyway that is perhaps something to ponder, when tempted to discount the entire population of young adults as spoiled, supercilious idiots.

Moreover, if we wish to employ that logic and broad brush, I could say: ALL middle-aged women worry about their fading looks and get botox, ALL middle-aged men worry about whether their football team will be a contender this year

What you actually mean to say is: Many people in general worry about many things that matter little in the great scheme of life. 

The things change with age, the triviality of them does not.


_And having parents that elevate their concerns into seemingly important issues isn't helpful to these girls. One of the core lessons that children must learn before becoming adults is that the world doesn't care that much about them. They must learn that their concerns are usually insignificant to most of those around them. Otherwise, they just spend their lives as unproductive narcissists._

Again, this is a rather dangerous standard if one intends to apply it solely to teens. All of this can apply to the posts ADULTS write on this forum.

How about all the men in sexless marriages?

The world doesn't care much about them. The world doesn't care about their sexless marriage.

But then, the husband doesn't need the world to care. He needs his wife to care. Because she is his family. His little world, within the big world.

Just like this daughter, needs her father to care about her and navigate his new marriage with tact and graciousness.

_Her parents separated 8 years ago. You consider something that happened in 2005 to be "very recent?" I don't think that word means what you think it means.

I know that divorce is traumatic. But this girl has had a long time to get used to her new reality. At some point, she's got to let go of the excuse that she's a child of divorce, so she is allowed to act like a spoiled brat.
_
Yes, you're totally right. They've been divorced for years. My bad. But he remarried in June 2012...so again, not even a year.

And the process of one's parents getting divorced, and the process one's parents getting remarried are two different (often painful) things...that each need time to settle.


So I'll fully retract what I said about the divorce being recent, and say the remarriage here...is very recent. And the choices he makes in this early 'rough' adjustment period are important to securing or destroying his relationship with his daughter.

And less than a year, does not a spoiled brat make.


_And that's not cool. But that's a separate issue. He behaved unreasonably by asking his daughter to take down a picture of her with her parents. But that doesn't mean that his penance is that he must comply with his daughter's unreasonable demands from now on. He should apologize for his actions and behave reasonably in the future. And that includes respecting his daughter's choice not to have him at her orientation._

Now this I strongly take issue with.

It is not a separate issue at all.

Anymore than a wife insulting her husband last Tuesday, would be a separate issue from her insulting him the next Friday.

Again, looking at this forum, we do not dissect relationship injuries in piecemeal fashion...because humans do not process injuries individually.

So, the Facebook issue represents one instance in which "father took new wife's side"...(father chose new wife over daughter)

As you admit that was wrong. And as I'll submit that was likely very painful for his daughter.

OP can't just correct this by apologizing but continuing to always pick his wife's desires over his kids

Anymore than a cheating spouse can make amends by apologizing and continuing to cheat.

Both the cheater and the father REALLY apologize by taking a different course of action when they next find themselves in a similar circumstance.

This is one such circumstance.

And if he picks new wife again, he just adds one more bead to the _“Dad loves new wife more than me”_ string that currently exists in his daughter's mind.

I hope he doesn't wish to do that...

Totally his choice.


----------



## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> If I desperately wanted my dad at my orientation, I would change the date if need be. I don't think she wanted him there as much as she wanted to cause drama.


Oh for sure, this is a test.

It's absolutely and totally a test.

It's a: _How important am I to you test?_

And people (of all ages) do this all the time

I suppose the question is: Do you think the daughter in this case has a right to test her father?

Based on the other information the OP has shared, I say: "yes, she does."

And he needs to pass it.

A time could certainly come when this is not the case...and the daughter would be out-of bounds

(and most likely that time would come when and if his new wife begins to act maturely and rationally)


----------



## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Well sure, a person can say that this little two day orientation is the most important thing in their life.

That just shows what kind of character they have.


----------



## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Wiserforit said:


> Well sure, a person can say that this little two day orientation is the most important thing in their life.
> 
> That just shows what kind of character they have.


This is funny and true.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

HumbledStriver said:


> My daughter is graduating HS in May. She is going to nearby college. I've been helping her with registration, etc. I've been separated since 05. Divorced since 06. I went overboard (my view) protecting my daughter from "pain" during and after divorce. Spoiled her. I don't feel she respects me.


Protecting, spoiling, and being a safety net will 99.9999% give you exactly what you have. kids know when they're getting a raw deal. They know when life is scary that they should be made to face it. They're just afraid too. And they resent a parent who gave them easy outs because life is "pay now or pay later" and later is more scary especially when they don't think they've done what they should have in the past.

ah... of course I don't know the details here.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

If not having Daddy accompany her to college orientation represents major trauma to this child, her life has been completely blissful. I concede this may be important to her. A particular pair of shoes is important to a 17 year old, attending a particular concert or having a zit on photo day is important to a 17 year old. That something is significant to a child doesn't mean adults should stop, drop, and roll to meet their every whim. There is value in disappointment. There is value in meeting and overcoming hardship (and this aint hardship, regardless of whether a kid feels it so). 
Has any adult navigated life without the occasional disappointment? What tools did you use to overcome and where did you learn those tools? Blowing endless powder sugar up a child's backside does them no favors. When she gets a disappointing grade in college, is she going to accuse the professor of hating her and will she behave like a 3 year old? Probably. When she gets a job and gets counseled for screwing up, will she respond as an adult or will she cry, imagine all sorts of personal offenses, or storm off and quit? I don't have a problem with her wanting what she wants or placing a child's emphasis on a child's problem. I have a problem with her lack of empathy, lack of self-control, and with her immediately reaching for the guilt stick to bludgeon her father with.


----------



## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

IndiaInk said:


> No PTHlump...there is absolutely NO such thing as objective reality


Of course there is. 2+2=4. Even if you really, really, really want it to be 5. Some things are important, and some things are unimportant. Well adjusted people understand that. Narcissists don't.



> And I think much strife in marriages and the world at large stems from two people each assuming their own reality is the objective one.


That is true. But just because two people disagree doesn't necessarily mean that they're both wrong. One could be wrong and one could be right.



> That is a wondrously broad brush with which to paint every single teenager.
> 
> Just yesterday I was reading an article on how different age groups deal with knowing that they are terminally ill, ...


I can guarantee you that more teenagers are worrying about zits and their favorite bands than are grappling with impending death.



> Anyway that is perhaps something to ponder, when tempted to discount the entire population of young adults as spoiled, supercilious idiots.


Don't mistake my discounting teenagers as spoiled and supercilious as disapproving. I used to be a teenager. And I was probably only a little less spoiled and supercilious than the OP's daughter. That's just a function of children. They're narcissists. But they don't have to stay narcissists. As long as the adults in their lives stop treating their trivial concerns as if they were important, these children can grow up to be well-adjusted adults.



> Moreover, if we wish to employ that logic and broad brush, I could say: ALL middle-aged women worry about their fading looks and get botox, ALL middle-aged men worry about whether their football team will be a contender this year


I didn't say that ALL teenagers worry about zits and bands. I was speaking in generalities. I realize that many people can't tell the difference. What may be helpful is to look for keywords like "all" or "every single one." The absence of words such as this can clue you in that you are reading about generalities.

For example, if I write that women are shorter than men. Obviously I don't mean that *all* women are shorter than *every single* man in the world. I mean that most women are shorter than most men. The bell curve of height in the female population is shifted to the left of the curve for males. But, that's tedious to write, or say. So, I use generalities and trust readers to be discerning.



> What you actually mean to say is: Many people in general worry about many things that matter little in the great scheme of life.
> 
> The things change with age, the triviality of them does not.


That is true. The difference is that most middle aged men won't pitch a hissy fit if their families don't share their passion for football.



> Again, this is a rather dangerous standard if one intends to apply it solely to teens. All of this can apply to the posts ADULTS write on this forum.


Of course. Many adults are narcissists. But more children are than adults.



> How about all the men in sexless marriages?
> 
> The world doesn't care much about them. The world doesn't care about their sexless marriage.
> 
> But then, the husband doesn't need the world to care. He needs his wife to care. Because she is his family. His little world, within the big world.


So, if a husband in a sexless marriage posted on these boards that his wife is willing to have sex with him 6 days a week, but not Wednesday, however he insists on only having sex on Wednesdays, you're saying that we would view his position as reasonable? You're saying that we would criticize his wife as being the one that should bend to her husbands demands? Have you spent much time on the Sex in Marriage board? I invite you to post just such a thread over there and see how the consensus lines up. I imagine you'll be surprised.



> Now this I strongly take issue with.
> 
> It is not a separate issue at all.
> 
> Anymore than a wife insulting her husband last Tuesday, would be a separate issue from her insulting him the next Friday.


We're not talking about him insulting her twice. We're talking about him insulting her once, and then her choosing to be offended (or at least act offended) when he later acts reasonably.



> And if he picks new wife again, he just adds one more bead to the _“Dad loves new wife more than me”_ string that currently exists in his daughter's mind.
> 
> I hope he doesn't wish to do that...
> 
> Totally his choice.


It is his choice. He can choose to cower to his daughter's emotional blackmail, or he can choose to act reasonably. So far, he's acting reasonably. I hope he continues to do so. And his daughter will likely be upset with him.

I have a young daughter. Sometimes, she asks for something unreasonable, like cookies and ice cream for dinner. Usually, I give her a healthy meal instead. And she gets upset with me. Now, I don't feed her healthy food and upset her because I don't like her. I do it because I love her. I want her to be physically healthy. But I also want her to be emotionally healthy. I don't want her to think that her father is so weak that she can bully me into complying with her most ridiculous demands. I also don't want her to be a narcissist when she grows up. So I act reasonably and let her rage. Sometimes, that's what parents need to do. I hope the OP understands that.


----------



## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

IndiaInk said:


> It's a: _How important am I to you test?_
> 
> And people (of all ages) do this all the time
> 
> ...


What you're missing is the reasonableness of the test. Every child has the right to test their parents to see how important she is. Every spouse has the right to test their spouse to see how important they are. But none of those people have the right to do it in an unreasonable fashion.

If the daughter were graduating high school, or college, then I agree that her father needs to pass that test and show up. If a wife is getting a big promotion, with a ceremony, at work, then the husband needs to pass that test and show up. If a wife gets a sexual advance from an ex, she needs to pass that test and be loyal to her husband.

If the daughter wants her parents to increase her allowance to prove how much they love her, then the parents should feel free (they should actually feel obligated) to fail that test and keep her allowance where it is.


----------



## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> If not having Daddy accompany her to college orientation represents major trauma to this child, her life has been completely blissful. I concede this may be important to her. A particular pair of shoes is important to a 17 year old, attending a particular concert or having a zit on photo day is important to a 17 year old. That something is significant to a child doesn't mean adults should stop, drop, and roll to meet their every whim. There is value in disappointment. There is value in meeting and overcoming hardship (and this aint hardship, regardless of whether a kid feels it so).
> Has any adult navigated life without the occasional disappointment? What tools did you use to overcome and where did you learn those tools? Blowing endless powder sugar up a child's backside does them no favors. When she gets a disappointing grade in college, is she going to accuse the professor of hating her and will she behave like a 3 year old? Probably. When she gets a job and gets counseled for screwing up, will she respond as an adult or will she cry, imagine all sorts of personal offenses, or storm off and quit? I don't have a problem with her wanting what she wants or placing a child's emphasis on a child's problem. I have a problem with her lack of empathy, lack of self-control, and with her immediately reaching for the guilt stick to bludgeon her father with.


Man.

Some seriously double standards are being employed for this teen for which no adult can seem to offer a reasoned justification

_"If not having Daddy accompany her to college orientation represents major trauma to this child, her life has been completely blissful."_

Alright, so...um... is this logic also applicable if we consider an area of your marriage in which your wife has disappointed you? Can I diminish and dismiss the pain that's been engendered in you and say : if that's your only issue/s your life has been blissful?

And if I can't (and certainly I wouldn't)...how do you justify applying this standard to this girl logically and fairly?

_Has any adult navigated life without the occasional disappointment?_

So what's the argument here? That because one's life will be inevitably beset with disappointments, the pain they cause simply doesn't matter at all. People should shake it off, and suck it up.

Again, judging by the adult-filled TAM that's a big: No. 

And the pain caused by family seems to very keenly felt by most and an intense focus in their lives.


----------



## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> What you're missing is the reasonableness of the test. Every child has the right to test their parents to see how important she is. Every spouse has the right to test their spouse to see how important they are. But none of those people have the right to do it in an unreasonable fashion.
> 
> If the daughter were graduating high school, or college, then I agree that her father needs to pass that test and show up. If a wife is getting a big promotion, with a ceremony, at work, then the husband needs to pass that test and show up. If a wife gets a sexual advance from an ex, she needs to pass that test and be loyal to her husband.
> 
> If the daughter wants her parents to increase her allowance to prove how much they love her, then the parents should feel free (they should actually feel obligated) to fail that test and keep her allowance where it is.


I think the test is reasonable, given all of information the OP has supplied thus far (so the Facebook thing goes into the metric I use)

You do not.

You then listed the things that are VALIDLY testable. TO YOU.

And there goes the objective reality...

You can see why this creates much of the strife amongst people.


_If the daughter wants her parents to increase her allowance to prove how much they love her, then the parents should feel free (they should actually feel obligated) to fail that test and keep her allowance where it is._

Oh sure thing.

But this is apples and we were talking oranges...


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

India, I'm not sure what was so offensive about unbelievable's post but the bottom line is this. Parents have a primary responsibility in raising our kids. That they grow up to be happy and healthy. Dealing with disappointment is part of life so it's not fair to enable a kid to avoid disappointment growing up. Solving tough problems and making choices is part of being able to suceed and be proud during life as well. Therefore this is also something older kids shouldn't be shielded from. Consequeces for actions is another one.

I guess what I saw in unbelievable's posts seemed to fit with my own thoughts and I know why I think this way ( for my kids ). Anyway, even in marriage, we do have to set our boundaries and sometimes that does mean hurt feelings. It all depends on the circumstances. If my wife were a vegan and told me not to eat meat then I'd eat a steak regardless because that would be one of my boundaries (I eat meat ). Just an example of where I would not change behavior no matter how it made my wife feel. Every couple navigates their own boundaries.


----------



## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

I like logic. I really do.

And please believe, if your argument trumps mine, I will change my position happily.

Unfortunately I'm finding a lot of straw men in this rebuttal.


_Of course there is (objective reality). 2+2=4. Even if you really, really, really want it to be 5._

Okay see, 2+2=4 is a straw man. We were not talking math (and actually, if you get into the realms of very higher math, even the objectiveness here becomes dubious.)

_Some things are important, and some things are unimportant. Well adjusted people understand that. Narcissists don't_

And this is the linchpin of my argument my friend.

Who is the arbiter of what IS and IS NOT important?

Is it you? Is it me? 

Who is well-adjusted? Who is the narcissist?

The determination of the importance of a "thing" is inherently subjective

Thus: objective reality does not exists when applied to this intrinsically subjective matter...which had nothing to do with 2+2=4 (surely you will concede that)


_I can guarantee you that more teenagers are worrying about zits and their favorite bands than are grappling with impending death._

Oh true story. Adults are the exact same. On the whole, all us spend a great deal of time upon things that don't really matter 

(like me writing this right now....it's just what people do)


_That's just a function of children. They're narcissists. But they don't have to stay narcissists. As long as the adults in their lives stop treating their trivial concerns as if they were important, these children can grow up to be well-adjusted adults._

I do think that young children are inordinately narcissistic. And they can't help it. Because neurologically they must develop the capacity to consider another's position. 

That is not the case with teenagers. At that age sure, you display some degree of selfishness. Some more, some less.

Same as adults.

And as a general rule EVERY HUMAN BEING (indeed every animal) is very selfish.

That is hardwired. I'm confident I could tie many examples of seemingly selfless behavior back to a drive that is inherently selfish.

But hopefully, you can just consider the state a world currently and tell me whether or not you think the majority of us ADULTS act selflessly overall.


I didn't say that ALL teenagers worry about zits and bands. I was speaking in generalities. I realize that many people can't tell the difference. What may be helpful is to look for keywords like "all" or "every single one." The absence of words such as this can clue you in that you are reading about generalities.

That's cute. 

For the record, what you wrote was:

_Teenage girls worry about zits. That doesn't mean that zits are important. Teenage girls worry about whether the Jonas Brothers are going to break up. That doesn't mean that the Jonas Brothers are important._

As written, the "all" is implied in it's omission.

This becomes more clear if you consider this scenario.

If I were to go to Mars and tell Martians: "People are white."

Is a "some" or an "all" implied in this statement?


_So, I use generalities and trust readers to be discerning.


Of course. Many adults are narcissists. But more children are than adults._

Okay...so you acknowledge you made a generality...cool deal.

But how do you throw OPs daughter into this pot using 'objective reality'?

_So, if a husband in a sexless marriage posted on these boards that his wife is willing to have sex with him 6 days a week, but not Wednesday, however he insists on only having sex on Wednesdays, you're saying that we would view his position as reasonable? You're saying that we would criticize his wife as being the one that should bend to her husbands demands? Have you spent much time on the Sex in Marriage board? I invite you to post just such a thread over there and see how the consensus lines up. I imagine you'll be surprised._

I don't understand your argument here.

Another straw man....

I used the example of 'sexless marriage' in order to clarify that what is important to one person, is very often NOT important to the world at large

Since you were arguing that this father should dismiss his daughters concern/desire, because the world at large will not care about it.

And actually, I'm fine with you using that standard, provided you apply it fairly to both this teen, yourself, and of the adults on TAM who are disappointed by the actions of a family member.


_We're not talking about him insulting her twice. We're talking about him insulting her once, and then her choosing to be offended (or at least act offended) when he later acts reasonably._

We are talking about his choosing his wife over his daughter once (to our knowledge)

This will or will not be the second time

And hey, I'd consider this unreasonable if the facebook issue hadn't been so unreasonable.

Since I'm fine with the daughter's test...and since the test needs to "measure" some level of feeling in reaction to the facebook thing

Her test, in order for it to be test, necessarily allows for some unreasonableness.


_I have a young daughter. Sometimes, she asks for something unreasonable, like cookies and ice cream for dinner. Usually, I give her a healthy meal instead. And she gets upset with me. Now, I don't feed her healthy food and upset her because I don't like her. I do it because I love her. I want her to be physically healthy. But I also want her to be emotionally healthy. I don't want her to think that her father is so weak that she can bully me into complying with her most ridiculous demands. I also don't want her to be a narcissist when she grows up. So I act reasonably and let her rage. Sometimes, that's what parents need to do. I hope the OP understands that.[/QUOTE]_

Sigh. Another straw man.

Healthy food vs cookies is in no way related to this case.

And as this situation currently stands:

Because I love my wife, I indulged her unreasonableness and, told you to take the photos of you, me and your mother down.

Because I love you, I'm not going to indulge your unreasonable test and accompany you to your college orientation. I am instead going to again please my wife, and accompany her to her son's graduation.

Hmm....I question the soundness of this strategy


----------



## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

HumbledStriver said:


> My daughter is graduating HS in May. She is going to nearby college. I've been helping her with registration, etc. I've been separated since 05. Divorced since 06. I went overboard (my view) protecting my daughter from "pain" during and after divorce. Spoiled her. I don't feel she respects me. Her mother and I not on good terms. I remarried 11 months ago. My wife and I are living back and forth in two states for a time. Her son graduates in June. My daughter picked dates for college orientation. I told her when she let me know (this was some time ago) I was planing on being gone then (for step-son's grad). Orientation packet came with the conflicting dates. I reminded (in email about the material) her I planned on being out of state that week. Offered she could go with her mom, her future roommate or by herself (she's capable) if she didn't want to reschedule. She blasted txt back saying it was the two most important days of her summer and she wasn't going to change her dates to accommodate my travel (even though shifting by a mere two days would do it). She said if it meant enough to me I'd be there. I sent her orientation dates that would work for me. No word from her. Am I wrong for thinking she should move her dates and not put me in the position of choosing on or the other?


I would proudly attend college orientation with my daughter instead of going to a graduation with a step-son of only 11 months.

My husband would do the same with his children & I would not only understand, but encourage it.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Emerald said:


> I would proudly attend college orientation with my daughter instead of going to a graduation with a step-son of only 11 months.
> 
> My husband would do the same with his children & I would not only understand, but encourage it.


To me orientation and graduation are on two levels of importance. Orientation is exciting I suppose but it's not an achievement. I don't have any pictures from my kid's orientations because who would? Graduation on the other hand is a celebration of achievement and it's important to show respect for the achievement. It's a proud moment for them.

Add to this that humble already thinks his daughter doesn't respect him and that he's spoiled her some. If he's helping with the cost of her education then his daughter should hug him and say THANK YOU DAD and not whine about something that's not very important.


----------



## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

IndiaInk said:


> Okay see, 2+2=4 is a straw man. We were not talking math (and actually, if you get into the realms of very higher math, even the objectiveness here becomes dubious.)


Math is objective. And it is one of many things that are. We are talking about what is reasonable and what is not. A child dictating to an adult that he drop everything and report to her on the one day he's told her he cannot is unreasonable. Unless you think that children should be the bosses of their parents. Most people, myself included, think that is an unreasonable position.



> Who is the arbiter of what IS and IS NOT important?
> 
> Is it you? Is it me?


I can tell you who it is NOT. It is NOT a solipsistic teenager.



> The determination of the importance of a "thing" is inherently subjective
> 
> Thus: objective reality does not exists when applied to this intrinsically subjective matter...which had nothing to do with 2+2=4 (surely you will concede that)


I disagree with your premise. You believe that there is no objective reality. That is a ridiculous belief. Reality exists. And it exists independently of ourselves. Just because something is important to you doesn't mean it becomes important to other people. And it certainly doesn't mean that it should.



> I do think that young children are inordinately narcissistic. And they can't help it. Because neurologically they must develop the capacity to consider another's position.
> 
> That is not the case with teenagers. At that age sure, you display some degree of selfishness. Some more, some less.
> 
> Same as adults.


You're half right. Yes, teenagers are less narcissistic than young children. Just as adults are less narcissistic than teenagers. It is a progression from a narcissistic psychopathy present in almost all children to being well adjusted adults that have empathy for other people and understand that the world doesn't live to serve their whims.



> But hopefully, you can just consider the state a world currently and tell me whether or not you think the majority of us ADULTS act selflessly overall.


Yes, there are selfish adults. But most adults recognize their selfishness and behave accordingly. Most adults don't steal from others. That is reasonable. Most adults don't insist that the rest of the world serve them, as children and teenagers often do. That would be unreasonable.



> For the record, what you wrote was:
> 
> _Teenage girls worry about zits. That doesn't mean that zits are important. Teenage girls worry about whether the Jonas Brothers are going to break up. That doesn't mean that the Jonas Brothers are important._
> 
> As written, the "all" is implied in it's omission.


So, in your opinion, if I write that women are shorter than men, I am actually implying that ALL women are shorter than EVERY SINGLE man? Well, that certainly makes debate with you much more complicated. But I'll try to keep it in mind.



> This becomes more clear if you consider this scenario.
> 
> If I were to go to Mars and tell Martians: "People are white."
> 
> Is a "some" or an "all" implied in this statement?


Your example assumes a lack of knowledge of people. I assumed no such lack of knowledge. In fact, I assumed the opposite. I assumed that you have knowledge of teenagers.



> Okay...so you acknowledge you made a generality...cool deal.
> 
> But how do you throw OPs daughter into this pot using 'objective reality'?


I threw her into that pot based on her actions. The OP was reasonable in giving his daughter only two days out of the summer that he was unavailable. That is going above and beyond the call of duty. It would have been reasonable for him to only give her a few dates that he WAS available. But he didn't do that. So, his daughter scheduling her orientation on the one date that he told her he was unavailable is an unreasonable action. It was a selfish action.



> _So, if a husband in a sexless marriage posted on these boards that his wife is willing to have sex with him 6 days a week, but not Wednesday, however he insists on only having sex on Wednesdays, you're saying that we would view his position as reasonable? You're saying that we would criticize his wife as being the one that should bend to her husbands demands? Have you spent much time on the Sex in Marriage board? I invite you to post just such a thread over there and see how the consensus lines up. I imagine you'll be surprised._
> 
> I don't understand your argument here.


I'm not surprised. I was aligning your analogy more closely with the matter at hand. If a husband claimed that his wife was withholding sex from him, he would have my sympathy. A wife withholding sex from her husband is typically behaving unreasonably.

However, if the facts came out that the wife was actually offering sex frequently, but the husband was rejecting her and insisting that they have sex on the one day the wife is unavailable (you really can't follow the parallel scenario?) then the husband would actually be the unreasonable person.

I'll just go ahead and spell it all out for you. The wife is the OP. The husband is his daughter. The daughter is angry because her father won't bend himself to her unreasonable demands. However, the fact that they are unreasonable eliminates his duty to concede to her.



> Since you were arguing that this father should dismiss his daughters concern/desire, because the world at large will not care about it.


You have missed my entire argument. I'm not arguing that he should skip her orientation because there are people starving in Africa. I'm saying that he should skip her orientation because her demands are unreasonable. He should give his daughter the choice of rescheduling, and having him there, or going without him. Those are the reasonable choices.



> And actually, I'm fine with you using that standard, provided you apply it fairly to both this teen, yourself, and of the adults on TAM who are disappointed by the actions of a family member.


I always do. I have never recommended that a person behave unreasonably. And I never will.



> _We're not talking about him insulting her twice. We're talking about him insulting her once, and then her choosing to be offended (or at least act offended) when he later acts reasonably._
> 
> We are talking about his choosing his wife over his daughter once (to our knowledge)


Right, which was the original insult.



> This will or will not be the second time


Not at all. Because reality doesn't bend itself to the solipsism of a child. If a child believes that she has been insulted, that doesn't mean she has. The OP refusing to go to his daughters orientation is a reasonable action. Just because his daughter is pitching a hissy fit about it can't transform the action from reasonable into being unreasonable.



> Healthy food vs cookies is in no way related to this case.


You're just missing the parallel scenario again. If my daughter demands cookies for dinner, she is insisting on something unreasonable. And if I behave reasonably, by feeding her broccoli, she will be angry. She will probably think I don't love her as much as I should. In that case, should I accede to her demands? You are insisting that the OP should. It would be inconsistent of you to acknowledge that I shouldn't.



> And as this situation currently stands:
> 
> Because I love my wife, I indulged her unreasonableness and, told you to take the photos of you, me and your mother down.
> 
> ...


I acknowledge that the OP behaved unreasonably in regard to the Facebook picture. He should acknowledge that to his daughter, apologize for it, and act reasonably in the future.

So now, I'll talk about his attending the orientation.

If the goal of the strategy is to make the daughter happy right now and communicate to her that her unreasonable demands will be met, then the OP should follow your advice.

If the OP wants to communicate to his daughter that she is transferring into adulthood, that she will no longer be as spoiled as she has been as a child, and that the OP will allow her to make reasonable requests and will ignore unreasonable requests, then he should follow my advice.

But it is certainly up to him.


----------



## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

IndiaInk said:


> And this is the linchpin of my argument my friend.
> 
> Who is the arbiter of what IS and IS NOT important?
> 
> ...


*yawn*

Bloviation: 


Definition: 
Speech or writing that is wordy, pompous, and generally empty of meaning: verbosity. Verb: bloviate. A person who bloviates is a bloviator.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Emerald said:


> I would proudly attend college orientation with my daughter instead of going to a graduation with a step-son of only 11 months.
> 
> My husband would do the same with his children & I would not only understand, but encourage it.


I would to if that were the choice. In this scenario, I would ask my daughter to move the orientation dates as I requested initially, as I have already committed to something else.

To me, that is where I have the most difficulty, even after rereading the Facebook issue from before. He presumably gave his word to his wife and new step-son that he would attend the graduation. His daughter is now demanding he break that commitment because she wants him to do so.  No other reason.

Yes, his relationship with his step-son is not long, but it is still one that is developing. It involves his wife as well. He breaks his word and what happens to that relationship. Particularly when it comes out that he broke his promise because his daughter demanded that he do so. Because she wanted her dad to prove that she was more important. I don't see that ending well either.

Not sure there is a good solution here. The OP has been pinned into a no win situation. I would have a hard time breaking my word merely because my daughter asked me to.


----------



## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

I stand by my original post.

I am in a similar postition as the OP. Married with adult children to a man with adult children. Luckily & I would have it no other way, my husband & I are very understanding about doing things with our own children separately. No hurt feelings, nobody has to feel "guilty" about "choosing" & our children are all well-adusted to this second marriage.

I do realize from OP's facebook post that his marriage is different & so with that being said, I feel bad for him that his daughter is not more understanding of his plans.


----------



## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

Emerald said:


> I stand by my original post.
> 
> I am in a similar postition as the OP. Married with adult children to a man with adult children. Luckily & I would have it no other way, my husband & I are *very understanding about doing things with our own children separately. *No hurt feelings, nobody has to feel "guilty" about "choosing" & our children are all well-adusted to this second marriage.
> 
> I do realize from OP's facebook post that his marriage is different & so with that being said, I feel bad for him that his daughter is not more understanding of his plans.


This is so nice to read.

All the kids will be happier for it.

OP should pick his daughter's thing.

OP's wife should pick her son's thing.

Everyone would be happy.

In fact, something which OP didn't state (but which can pretty easily be presumed) is that his wife is holding him to this graduation attendance. Pretty sure if she said "just go to your daughter's orientation"...he would never have made this thread.

Really would've been a mature and farsighted thing for her to do...because then, the OP could tell his daughter that her "step-mother" told him not to miss her orientation...and that might soften the feelings between these two.

Alas, it didn't happen.

I think this step-mother/daughter dynamic devolved into the common two women fighting over guy pattern

And that's unfortunate


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Emerald said:


> I stand by my original post.
> 
> I am in a similar postition as the OP. Married with adult children to a man with adult children. Luckily & I would have it no other way, my husband & I are very understanding about doing things with our own children separately. No hurt feelings, nobody has to feel "guilty" about "choosing" & our children are all well-adusted to this second marriage.
> 
> I do realize from OP's facebook post that his marriage is different & so with that being said, I feel bad for him that his daughter is not more understanding of his plans.


That seems like an understatement to me. I am glad that you have a good arrangement, but I have to ask how well that would work if this stuff happened regularly. I mean, are all interactions with your husbands family tentative with the possibility that your family will want to do something with you until you arrive? I am sure they are not, and I am positive that you two have reasonable discussions to figure out how to work things. But if a step-daughter refused to move things around (that she could) even if you planned things out a couple of months, how understanding would you be? Then again, perhaps if I lived this I would be less bothered by it.

I will say that I continue to pause at the idea that the OP should break his word merely because his daughter insists that he should. That bothers me on a fundamental level.


----------



## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

Alright PTHlump we're fast approaching dead horse territory here...so I'll stop

Appreciate you going three rounds with me though....

And there's just one tiny little "philosophical point" I hope I can get you to agree with me on...


So, Objective means: _"not influenced by personal feelings or interpretations"_

Math is objective.

Agreed. My feelings have no influence upon 2+2=4


And it is one of many things that are. 


No...outside of the realm of math and science, nearly everything is subjective.


We are talking about what is reasonable and what is not. A child dictating to an adult that he drop everything and report to her on the one day he's told her he cannot is unreasonable. Unless you think that children should be the bosses of their parents. Most people, myself included, think that is an unreasonable position.


Okay. I will happily acknowledge that _reasonableness_ (in a legal context) is a standard determined by the belief of "the majority" of a given population.

BUT.

What is 'reasonable' (or right) to the majority is NOT necessarily OBJECTIVELY 'reasonable' in the 2+2=4 sense

And the best examples of that to offer are:

There was a time when _"women should not be allowed to vote" _was the 'reasonable view' 

There was a time when slavery in America was considered a 'reasonable' practice

But then WE (the majority) shifted our views on these things...and the reasonableness of these practices was abandoned.

Because these were subjective beliefs, subjective realities...that had the potential to be changed

BUT, 2+2=4....is NOT subjective (it is not based on prevailing opinions, feelings and attitudes....it was as true 2000 years ago as it is today)



I can tell you who it is NOT. It is NOT a solipsistic teenager.


Alright. That's fine.

But at least concede that that is 'your view' based upon 'your feelings, attitudes and values, and it thus subjective.

Just as the teen who believes that there position is the correct one...is also operating on a subjective level

Alright, so I wrote: 
_The determination of the importance of a "thing" is inherently subjective_


I disagree with your premise.

Nah.

Pretty sure you don't really


You believe that there is no objective reality. That is a ridiculous belief. Reality exists. And it exists independently of ourselves. 

I believe that there is NO *objective reality* when we're operating from our individual position on an issue has been determined by our personal beliefs, attitudes and value judgement 


Just because something is important to you doesn't mean it becomes important to other people. And it certainly doesn't mean that it should

Agreed!

Wholeheartedly agreed!!

What's important to me is not necessarily important to other people

What's 'fair' or 'right' to me, is not necessarily fair or right to you.

Because my reality is based on my beliefs, attitudes and judgments...and thus comprise my subjective reality.

And this is true for you

And this father

And this daughter

None of them are objectively "RIGHT" 

They are only subjectively right...

because unlike 2+2=4, our realities (and opinions on this particular issue) are derived from our unique attitudes, beliefs and judgement

So while all of us can believe ardently that our opinion/position is the RIGHT ONE...none of us can fairly claim to hold the intrinsically, objective reality 

Will you concede this? 


C'mon just >>>>> :iagree:

You know you want to...


----------



## Soifon (Oct 5, 2012)

I didn't see anywhere that the OP said he daughter could change the dates, maybe I missed something? He said she just told him what date it was. I've attended a few colleges and each one the orientation was a set date. They didn't schedule it personally with everyone. It was a, "your last name ends A-M you attend on... N-Z you attend on..." How does everyone know she _can_ change the date. 

Her world was turned upside down as a preteen and now she is entering into another new world that she may be scared about. Is it that horrible that she wants the comfort of having her parent there with her?

And seriously? His "stepson's" graduation is more important? Yes graduation is more important than an orientation. But his daughter's orientation over his gf's kid's graduation? I don't think so. And yes I'm saying gf's kid because he got married less than a year ago. This is hardly a stepson he has a solid bond/parental connection with so I think this needs to be looked at on a much lower level then people are giving it.

Also, after hearing about OP's other post with the pic and the new wife, is it possible that he only started thinking his daughter was being spoiled after it was suggested by the new wife? Maybe she was never spoiled in the first place.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

All three of my kids had mandatory orientation for college. If they were lucky they got to pick between one or two dates for orientation. But generally the dates fill up VERY quickly. Chances are that his daughter had very little choice of her orientation date.

Colleges/universities really put the pressure on for parents to attend the orientations. They have special events for the parents and some joint with the student and the parent. Why? Because they have found that when parents are involved and encourage the education, the student is more likely to do well and to stay in college and graduate. Stats that the college keeps show that parental attendance at orientation is one of the strongest indicators of a student doing well and eventually graduating.

OP is putting a step son who has only been a step son for a few months ahead of his biologoical child. I get that she feels that she is not important in his life.


----------



## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

Soifon said:


> I didn't see anywhere that the OP said he daughter could change the dates, maybe I missed something? He said she just told him what date it was. I've attended a few colleges and each one the orientation was a set date. They didn't schedule it personally with everyone. It was a, "your last name ends A-M you attend on... N-Z you attend on..." How does everyone know she _can_ change the date.
> 
> Her world was turned upside down as a preteen and now she is entering into another new world that she may be scared about. Is it that horrible that she wants the comfort of having her parent there with her?
> 
> ...


Exactly!

I have 2 young adult step-sons. I am not their parent in any way shape or form. After being married only 11 months, I barely even knew them & them me. If one was graduating from college, I can assure you that they would not really care if me (almost a stranger to them) was there or not.

However my daughter WOULD care if I didn't come to something that was important to her & frankly her college orientation would be more important to me than a step-son - whom I barely know - graduation ceremony.

With all the troubled teens out there, OP should be THRILLED to have a smart daughter who is entering college & attend all of the pre-college activites with her. He also should be thrilled that she wants him to come. Many young adults do not want their parents to attend.


----------



## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

HumbledStriver said:


> *My daughter picked dates* for college orientation. ... Offered she could go with her mom, her future roommate or by herself (she's capable) *if she didn't want to reschedule*. She blasted txt back saying it was the two most important days of her summer and* she wasn't going to change her dates* to accommodate my travel (even though shifting by a mere two days would do it).


It sounds like the dates are flexible. His daughter certainly isn't making the argument that she can't change the dates. She's making the argument that she won't change the dates.

My local college gives orientation 15 times between early June and early August.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Wiserforit said:


> Well sure, a person can say that this little two day orientation is the most important thing in their life.
> 
> That just shows what kind of character they have.


She did not say it was the most important thing in her life. 

She said it was the most important day in her life THIS SUMMER.

The girl is apparently has a very good attitude about starting college. It's very important to her. Good for her. Do you know how many young kids these days will not even get off video gaming long enough to get a job or to go to college? 

Encouraging a child to do the right thing.. such as to pursue a college education should be one of the biggest priorities of the parent of a young adult.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> It sounds like the dates are flexible. His daughter certainly isn't making the argument that she can't change the dates. She's making the argument that she won't change the dates.
> 
> My local college gives orientation 15 times between early June and early August.


The college my kids have atteneded have about 15 orientation dates. They fill up very quickly as people need to make travel plans. It's very hard to change dates once a reservation is made because everything fills up early. We do not know what the situation is at at school this young lady will be attending.


----------



## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

HumbledStriver said:


> I went overboard (my view) protecting my daughter from "pain" during and after divorce. Spoiled her. I don't feel she respects me.
> 
> Offered she could go with her mom, her future roommate or by herself (she's capable) if she didn't want to reschedule.
> 
> ...


Lets revisit....again.

He spoiled her. She doesn't respect him. She didn't want to reschedule.

Instead of communicating her feelings she "blasted" him via text. Then she employed emotional blackmail "if you loved me you'd be there".

He sends back alternative dates and she ignores.

Not very mature for someone going to college. Just think how she will act when her future husband has a business trip or has to work on another very important day.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Soifon said:


> I didn't see anywhere that the OP said he daughter could change the dates, maybe I missed something? He said she just told him what date it was. I've attended a few colleges and each one the orientation was a set date. They didn't schedule it personally with everyone. It was a, "your last name ends A-M you attend on... N-Z you attend on..." How does everyone know she _can_ change the date.
> 
> Her world was turned upside down as a preteen and now she is entering into another new world that she may be scared about. Is it that horrible that she wants the comfort of having her parent there with her?
> 
> ...


:iagree: The stepson's graduation date is important to his mother and his father. The OP is not this kid's father. It could very well be that having the new husband at the graduation could make his graduation uncomfortable while everyone tries to figure out how they are supposed to interact with his mother's new husband.

The OP should be at his daughter's orientation, not the stepson's graduation since they are on the same day. Most step kids can could care less about haveing a new step parent attend things like their graduation. He's almost a grown up, its' not like he's got a big attachment to the OP. I think that the OP is making way too much about his status as new step dad.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

IndiaInk said:


> This is so nice to read.
> 
> All the kids will be happier for it.
> 
> ...


I am curious on how long this lasts? Does the daughter preempt every activity that the OP wants to be involved in with his wife's family? If so, for how long?


----------



## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I am curious on how long this lasts? Does the daughter preempt every activity that the OP wants to be involved in with his wife's family? If so, for how long?


Then later it will be her husband's family. I mean she comes first right? LOL


----------



## Soifon (Oct 5, 2012)

You guys are being really harsh on a 17/18 year old girl who's parents divorced at a really rough age and is starting a new chapter in her life and just wants her dad there. Not everyone acts rationally 100% of the time and sometimes our emotions take over. Give her a freaking break.


----------



## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> The college my kids have atteneded have about 15 orientation dates. They fill up very quickly as people need to make travel plans. It's very hard to change dates once a reservation is made because everything fills up early. We do not know what the situation is at at school this young lady will be attending.


We know what the OP told us. The OP posted that he let his daughter know immediately that the dates didn't work for him. He also posted that she refused to change them. He didn't post that she tried to change them, but was unable to.

I agree with you that the second scenario is much more sympathetic for the daughter. I just fail to see why we should assume that to be the case when the OP never posted anything suggesting it.


----------



## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> Lets revisit....again.
> 
> He spoiled her. She doesn't respect him. She didn't want to reschedule.
> 
> ...


Okay.

Remember we are only hearing his side here, but even if we concede that he 'spoiled' his daughter

Well...now he's just kowtowing to his new wife's *unreasonable *requests.

How is that any better? 

"Blasted" does actually make her 'texting' sound evil, but it was just the OP's verb choice. Although I'm sure she was angry.

And I agree, it is a _"if you love me, you'll pick me here and not *"them"*_ test

And in context of the facebook story, her behavior is understandable

Neither party (new-wife or daughter) is being mature here. 

Between the two, who do you think the onus is on in that regard (18 y/o girl, or 40s/50s woman)?

Also, I don't think we can extrapolate her future behavior with a husband from this issue with her dad

This behavior is the result of these unique circumstances.

I wonder if whose side you take in this case (OP or daughters) just boils down to how big a deal you consider the facebook incident.

See, I consider it a VERY big deal. A VERY big mistake on his part. And a horrible, dreadful display of jealousy from his wife

It's like saying to the daughter: _the thought that your Dad and your mom were ever 'a family' *with you* bothers me so much that I can't bear the thought of a facebook picture showing the three of you standing together at your high school graduation._

And then the father, by asking her to take down the photo, agreed with this sentiment

Honestly, it's perfectly understandable for Step-Mother not to like the photo of her husband standing next to his ex-wife (i'm sure I wouldn't either )...but that's when you remind yourself that, like it or not, this is a second marriage for both of you...and this sort of stuff (little relics/reminders of those first marriages) are probably gonna happen at milestone events where kids are concerned (so around very 4 years)...

A gracious attitude on her part would've made everyone involved a lot happier...and then I'm not sure this orientation thing even arises

(but it looks like there's still no graciousness forthcoming...and the Humbledstriver tug-of-war continues)


----------



## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I see your point I do. I agree ONLY if she couldn't change the dates. If she could and didn't she's spoiled. Heck I'm able to negotiate with my own kids. I can't do it today but how about tomorrow? As parents we do have other obligations to tend to. I can't always do what my kids want on the day they want it. That's life.


----------



## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

Why is it hard to be compassionate to the girl? It seems like people think the OP has this great bond with his stepson. If he's been the stepfather for only 11 months, I would venture to guess he and the stepson aren't close at all. Would the stepson care if his new stepfather is at his graduation? Maybe or maybe not. There's nothing in the original post to suggest the stepson's feelings are affected by the OP not being at the graduation. But we know for sure the OP's biological daughter wants him and needs him at her event. 

It seems to me that people forget what they were like at age 17 or 18 or claim qualities for themselves at that age they probably didn't possess if they were truly taking an honest assessment of themselves . The expectations some posters have of this young woman are far higher than expectations they have of other adults who post on TAM. 

I wish the OP would post again, but based on previous experience with his other posts, he tends to post and run until the next problem between his daughter and new wife. 




Mavash. said:


> Then later it will be her husband's family. I mean she comes first right? LOL


Of course. That's exactly what we were saying. Carry on with mocking the young woman.


----------



## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> The stepson's graduation date is important to his mother and his father. The OP is not this kid's father.


Graduations are usually important to family, and even friends. The OP is the boy's family. He has lived with him as his stepfather for a year. If he had started dating the boy's mother last months, I would agree with you. As it is, I think he should go.

Also, the day is probably a big deal for the boy's mother. She would probably like to have her husband share the day with her. That seem reasonable to me.



> It could very well be that having the new husband at the graduation could make his graduation uncomfortable while everyone tries to figure out how they are supposed to interact with his mother's new husband.


Again, he's been married to the woman for a year. I presume they dated for a while before that. We can assume that his presence in the family is ensconced.



> Most step kids can could care less about haveing a new step parent attend things like their graduation.


Perhaps. But the OP hasn't said anything about his relationship with his stepson. They may get along great. The boy may be really looking forward to having his stepfather at his graduation. We certainly shouldn't assume that he doesn't want his stepfather there.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> We know what the OP told us. The OP posted that he let his daughter know immediately that the dates didn't work for him. He also posted that she refused to change them. He didn't post that she tried to change them, but was unable to.
> 
> I agree with you that the second scenario is much more sympathetic for the daughter. I just fail to see why we should assume that to be the case when the OP never posted anything suggesting it.


She might not have a choice in the dates. If she really did refuse to change them, she might have refused because she knew that she could not change them. Once my kids signed up for orientation it was not possible to change the dates. We don't know.

There is no indication that the OP had has any idea how things work at the school his daughter will attend. This sounds like a father who is more focused on his new wife and her son then on his own daughter.


----------



## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Soifon said:


> You guys are being really harsh on a 17/18 year old girl who's parents divorced at a really rough age and is starting a new chapter in her life and just wants her dad there. Not everyone acts rationally 100% of the time and sometimes our emotions take over. Give her a freaking break.


Nobody here is suggesting that the OP disown his daughter. Nobody has even suggested that he punish her. We're simply suggesting that he not surrender to emotional blackmail.

I realize that the OP's daughter is a child of divorce. But that was seven years ago. She has had time to adjust. I think it's unreasonable to make excuses for a girl emotionally blackmailing her parents.

Yes, I recognize that teenagers don't always act rationally. But that doesn't mean that you allow them to boss their parents around.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> Graduations are usually important to family, and even friends. The OP is the boy's family. He has lived with him as his stepfather for a year. If he had started dating the boy's mother last months, I would agree with you. As it is, I think he should go.
> 
> Also, the day is probably a big deal for the boy's mother. She would probably like to have her husband share the day with her. That seem reasonable to me.
> 
> ...


His daughter should be priority one.

His step son is priority 2.

It's pretty simple.

The way people are attacking his daughter on this is very disturbing. What has she done wrong? She is starting college and would like her father involved. She has orientation dates that she probably cannot change. But her father does not believe that her starting college is important enough for him to make time for.

There have been other things, like the picture issue, that lead me to think that her father gives in to the unreasonable new wife at his daughter's expense. 


This man is going to lose his daughter if he has not already. 

Since when is starting college not a HUGE thing in the life of a young adult?

If the OP believe's taht the step son's graduation is more important than his daughter starting college, his priorities are wrong. The new wife expects her husband to go to her son's graduation. Yet what is the father's new wife doing to support this young lady entering college? Sounds like nothing.

The girl is right. She is not as important to her father as a good, productive young adult child should be.


----------



## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> She might not have a choice in the dates. If she really did refuse to change them, she might have refused because she knew that she could not change them. Once my kids signed up for orientation it was not possible to change the dates. We don't know.


Again, you are assuming that the OP got it totally wrong in his original post. I don't know why you would assume that. You're not even assuming things that he didn't address. He actually wrote that his daughter could reschedule, but refuses to. And you refuse to believe that.



> There is no indication that the OP had has any idea how things work at the school his daughter will attend.


You're arguing that you have a better understanding of an anonymous stranger's daughter's orientation at an unknown school than he himself does? OK. I'll just say that I disagree.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Coffee Amore said:


> Why is it hard to be compassionate to the girl? It seems like people think the OP has this great bond with his stepson. If he's been the stepfather for only 11 months, I would venture to guess he and the stepson aren't close at all. Would the stepson care if his new stepfather is at his graduation? Maybe or maybe not. There's nothing in the original post to suggest the stepson's feelings are affected by the OP not being at the graduation. But we know for sure the OP's biological daughter wants him and needs him at her event.


Nothing in the post to indicate that step-sons feelings would not be affected either. It as also possible that this is her way of manufacturing a drama to force a confrontation. Without the OP answering questions, we are all guessing quite a bit.



> It seems to me that people forget what they were like at age 17 or 18 or claim qualities for themselves at that age they probably didn't possess if they were truly taking an honest assessment of themselves . The expectations some posters have of this young woman are far higher than expectations they have of other adults who post on TAM.


But isn't it his job as her parent to show her how to behave properly? Is giving in to poor behavior that right response?

I don't see her actions as completely out of line, but they do seem wrong to me (based on the understanding that she had some control over the dates). Part of being a parent is teaching our kids. I don't see why this is not part of that.



> I wish the OP would post again, but based on previous experience with his other posts, he tends to post and run until the next problem between his daughter and new wife.


I agree. I would like a lot more information on the dynamic between the families to fill in some guessing.


----------



## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> I see your point I do. * I agree ONLY if she couldn't change the dates. If she could and didn't she's spoiled. * Heck I'm able to negotiate with my own kids. I can't do it today but how about tomorrow? As parents we do have other obligations to tend to. I can't always do what my kids want on the day they want it. That's life.


And that's solid parenting on your part. But I would ask you: Are your kids coming from this broken family (and now new family) dynamic?

Because that's a unique circumstance and it's what I think's complicating this

*So whose side he picks=who he loves*(and clearly both his spouse and daughter see it this way)

And thus, if she changed the dates, it wouldn't be a test for him.

I'll totally acknowledge that she *wants *him to choose her desire over his wife's desire. She *doesn't want to help him *accommodate them both.

This is not noble, generous or mature behavior...and in most cases I wouldn't support that.

But since I see it as a petty reaction, that has its roots in an older petty reaction, an older one that damaged the father/daughter relationship here...I'm giving her a wide-margin for immature behavior in this case

And no doubt, this petty cycle, and these tests between the two women will continue and worsen until someone decides to be the bigger person here. 

And that needs to be his wife. She needs to extend the olive branch and let him go to the orientation.

And if she does that, and in the future starts reacting from a place of kindness and understanding and the daughter continues to "test" like this, well then she'll totally be in the wrong


----------



## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

The TAM administration has scheduled a mandatory sensitivity training class for the TAM membership, the father, the new wife, the step-son, and the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff. 

The training will be conducted by the daughter, who will certify that each attendee has placed their lips upon her posterior.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> Again, you are assuming that the OP got it totally wrong in his original post. I don't know why you would assume that. You're not even assuming things that he didn't address. He actually wrote that his daughter could reschedule, but refuses to. And you refuse to believe that.
> 
> 
> You're arguing that you have a better understanding of an anonymous stranger's daughter's orientation at an unknown school than he himself does? OK. I'll just say that I disagree.


An interesting thing about the OP is that he does not engage in discussion on this threads. He answers no questions. So nothing can be clarified. So my point of view remains the same until the OP feels it's worth this time to discuss the topics with us that he posts about.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Wiserforit said:


> The TAM administration has scheduled a mandatory sensitivity training class for the TAM membership, the father, the new wife, the step-son, and the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff.
> 
> The training will be conducted by the daughter, who will certify that each attendee has placed their lips upon her posterior.


You really do need to add the OP's new wife to posterior kissing ceremony as she is the one who demanded that the daughter take down photos of her parents because they hurt her feelings. Then the wife moved 900 miles away from the OP because of this photo incident and other things.

It seems to me that the new wife is causing a lot of drama. She, as the ‘mature adult’ started a standoff with a 17 year old girl.

And apparently the OP is not strong enough figure out how to handle all this drama.

The OP made a mistake in telling his daughter to take down the photo of herself with her parents to make his new wife happy.

This orientation is a chance for him to be supportive of his daughter and spend some time with just her, with his wife not being around. It could be a good chance for them.


----------



## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> His daughter should be priority one.
> 
> His step son is priority 2.
> 
> It's pretty simple.


It's not that simple. My kids are a high priority of mine. But I don't cater to their unreasonable demands. That's how simple I make it. I'll will honor reasonable requests. I will not honor unreasonable demands. Even for my kids.



> The way people are attacking his daughter on this is very disturbing. What has she done wrong? She is starting college and would like her father involved. She has orientation dates that she probably cannot change. But her father does not believe that her starting college is important enough for him to make time for.


I don't see people attacking the daughter. I have said she is acting like a normal teenager. Yes, she is being unreasonable. But that's normal for her age.

However, I do see people attacking the father. By refusing to cater to his daughter's unreasonable demands, he is somehow harming her. If only he let his daughter dominate him more, he could prove how much he loves her.



> Since when is starting college not a HUGE thing in the life of a young adult?


Starting college is a huge thing. Spending an hour walking around campus listening to a student tell you where the library is is not a huge thing.



> If the OP believe's taht the step son's graduation is more important than his daughter starting college, his priorities are wrong. The new wife expects her husband to go to her son's graduation. Yet what is the father's new wife doing to support this young lady entering college? Sounds like nothing.


Good point. Perhaps the stepmother can start a petition asking the school district to reschedule the high school graduation to a different date that doesn't conflict with her stepdaughter's plans. That certainly sounds reasonable, doesn't it?



> The girl is right. She is not as important to her father as a good, productive young adult child should be.


It's no wonder why we have an epidemic of narcissism in this country. A child pitches a fit and adults line up to not only excuse her, but to demand that the adults in her life realign the stars to better suit her.


----------



## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> An interesting thing about the OP is that he does not engage in discussion on this threads. He answers no questions. So nothing can be clarified. So my point of view remains the same until the OP feels it's worth this time to discuss the topics with us that he posts about.


Why should he clarify anything? He posted facts and you are assuming that he got all the facts 100% backwards. Are you saying that, if he posted again that his daughter refused to reschedule her orientation, you would believe him this time? I doubt that.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> Starting college is a huge thing. Spending an hour walking around campus listening to a student tell you where the library is is not a huge thing


It's a 2 day orientation. Not 1 hour walking around campus. There is a lot more to this type of orientation.



PHTlump said:


> Good point. Perhaps the stepmother can start a petition asking the school district to reschedule the high school graduation to a different date that doesn't conflict with her stepdaughter's plans. That certainly sounds reasonable, doesn't it?


Now you are being silly. Remember that his wife threw a fit when his daughter had a high school graduation picture taken with her mother and father. Then threw an even bigger fit when the girl posted that picture, and other graduation pictures, on facebook. The new wife threw such a fit that her father asked her to take the picture down. 

This wife threw such a fit about it that she moved 900 miles away. So now her father is gone to live with his new wife about half the time... 900 miles away. 

For at least 2 holidays in the last year, the OP has told the girl that he does not care if she spends the scheduled holiday with him. To a kid this mean litterally what he said "he does not care". 

Now the graduation of a step son is more important than her college orientation, which is a 2 days event that includes parents. Most students will have their parents present.




PHTlump said:


> It's no wonder why we have an epidemic of narcissism in this country. A child pitches a fit and adults line up to not only excuse her, but to demand that the adults in her life realign the stars to better suit her.



You see it as she is demanding something unreasonable... for her father to attend her orientation.

I see attending one's child's orientation (which has a parent component to it) as a very imporatant way to show support to a young adult who is doing the right thing. 

His attendence at his step son's graduation is secondary to his daughter's college student/parent orientation. At least some of us think that it's very important to give positive support to our young adult children when they do the right thing.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> Why should he clarify anything? He posted facts and you are assuming that he got all the facts 100% backwards. Are you saying that, if he posted again that his daughter refused to reschedule her orientation, you would believe him this time? I doubt that.


Because often people say things and when more detail is asked it turns out that they are making assumptions or used words in a way that was not very clear.

From my experience, student/parent college orientations are not easy to reschedule. Once a date is set, that's it. Often a student submits a list of 3 or 4 dates and the college writes them back telling them which dates are assigned to them. Since the OP does not sound like he's very invovled in his daughter's life, there is a good chance that he knows how the dates are set.


----------



## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> You see it as she is demanding something unreasonable... for her father to attend her orientation.


Not at all. Her wanting her father at orientation is reasonable. What is unreasonable is for her to schedule her orientation on the one day in the summer where her father told her he couldn't make it, and then refuse to reschedule.



> At least some of us think that it's very important to give positive support to our young adult children when they do the right thing.


And some of us think it's very important to raise children not to be narcissists. By catering to a child's every unreasonable demand, one encourages that child to be narcissistic. I think that's more important than learning where the library is.


----------



## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

My father took me to kindergarten. Not to the room. Just to the school, and dropped me off. 

The only thing I remember was walking between the car and the school, because of the anxiety. That great big building. Not being sure what I was supposed to do, other than go inside. 

That was the last time I had any parental help in attending school. Six years old.

Hey, maybe we should have the mommies attend the first day of marine boot camp too. After all, these poor soldiers will be far away from their mommy and daddy, and they are entering a frightening occupation.


----------



## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> Because often people say things and when more detail is asked it turns out that they are making assumptions or used words in a way that was not very clear.
> 
> From my experience, student/parent college orientations are not easy to reschedule. Once a date is set, that's it. Often a student submits a list of 3 or 4 dates and the college writes them back telling them which dates are assigned to them. Since the OP does not sound like he's very invovled in his daughter's life, there is a good chance that he knows how the dates are set.


Well, I will agree with you. If the OP has actually reported all of his facts 100% backwards, then obviously we should give different advice. I simply question the need for us to assume that.


----------



## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Wiserforit said:


> My father took me to kindergarten. Not to the room. Just to the school, and dropped me off.


Obviously, your father didn't love you enough. If he had done a better job, you could be a happy-go-lucky narcissist insisting that the rest of the world owes you whatever you ask of it.


----------



## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I am curious on how long this lasts? Does the daughter preempt every activity that the OP wants to be involved in with his wife's family? If so, for how long?


Well, this isn't the case here is it?

The daughter's wishes/wants, to our knowledge, have yet to preempt ANYTHING

And that's why I think this predicament has arisen in the first place


----------



## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

*Nothing in the post to indicate that step-sons feelings would not be affected either*. It as also possible that this is her way of manufacturing a drama to force a confrontation. Without the OP answering questions, we are all guessing quite a bit.


This is reaching a bit don't you think?

What do you suppose the more likely scenario is?

Twenty-something boy's _feelings will be hurt_ if his mom's VERY new husband isn't at his graduation?

Yeah. Somehow I don't think so. In fact, if I had to bet $, I'd predict the opposite is likely true

OR

Is it that step-mommy is INSISTING her husband attend this event, rather than throwing step-daughter a bone and letting her husband off the hook on this graduation thing

Which she SHOULD do...given her previous unrelenting behavior (facebook).



But isn't it his job as her parent to show her how to behave properly? Is giving in to poor behavior that right response?

Yes, but he's already failed that test.

And the problem is

He INDULGED his wife's BAD BEHAVIOR

he doesn't now make his relationship with his daughter right by now refusing to INDULGE her 'bad' behavior (and also, pretty sure he'd again be indulging his wife's wants over his daughter's...as I suspect she's the one who actually wants him at the graduation)

admittedly, his wife's desire in this instance is not crazy like the facebook thing...but too little too late, and the fact that she hasn't given him to the green light to go to this orientation...which she really should've done... indicates the battle between these two women is going to continue


I would like a lot more information on the dynamic between the families to fill in some guessing.


I agree with that too (for any response I give on TAM)...the advice offered has to be based upon the facts the OP has shared...

I've no doubt that it's totally possible there's more info that if provided could make any of us change our opinion's here


----------



## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Funny stuff.

Btw my parents stopped walking me to school at K too.

I went to college orientation all by my lonesome.

Oh the horror. Lol

But my parents weren't divorced.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

IndiaInk said:


> Well, this isn't the case here is it?
> 
> The daughter's wishes/wants, to our knowledge, have yet to preempt ANYTHING
> 
> And that's why I think this predicament has arisen in the first place


While there has been a host of speculation from both sides, I am not sure it is accurate to say that the daughter's wishes have yet to preempt anything. The OP noted that he spoiled his daughter. It is certainly possible that this reaction (as well as the Facebook incident) result from him not indulging her like he used to. 

Regardless, how long does she get the right to dictate his schedule? I am a huge believer in not rewarding bad behavior. The daughter's behavior is not something I would want to reward. Sure, in a perfect world, the step mom would step up and release him from his commitment, but that apparently has not happened. So is he supposed to break that commitment now? If so, what does that commitment mean? 

I don't know. Maybe that does not mean anything to others. It just seems to me that you don't get to keep promises only as long as they are convenient or fun. Not sure that is a lesson I want to teach my children. Not sure I have much else to add at this point.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

IndiaInk said:


> *Nothing in the post to indicate that step-sons feelings would not be affected either*. It as also possible that this is her way of manufacturing a drama to force a confrontation. Without the OP answering questions, we are all guessing quite a bit.
> 
> 
> This is reaching a bit don't you think?


No more than any one else. We have numerous posters speculating on how he has no relationship with the boy, that the boy would in fact be uncomfortable if the OP attended, minimizing knowing him to merely 11 months (the length of the marriage), as opposed to acknowledging that they likely met earlier, the the OP is not involved in anything with the daughter, that the daughter had no choice on the dates, etc. Remove the log first, I think



> What do you suppose the more likely scenario is?
> 
> Twenty-something boy's _feelings will be hurt_ if his mom's VERY new husband isn't at his graduation?
> 
> ...


I agree that latter is more likely. That does not mean his backing out won't be a set-back to what ever relationship the OP may be developing with him. If he gave his word, backing out now shows what that word means. It reinforces that he (the boy) is nothing to him.



> Which she SHOULD do...given her previous unrelenting behavior.


I don't disagree.




> But isn't it his job as her parent to show her how to behave properly? Is giving in to poor behavior that right response?
> 
> Yes, but he's already failed that test.
> 
> ...


And when he agreed to his wife's wants, it was no big deal, as he did so before this conflict was known.

I just don't see how playing that she started it first game gets the OP anywhere. I have already voiced my issues with a demand that he back out of his word. I will just have to leave it at that and let you all advise him. I can't give him that advice.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

coffee4me said:


> The OP created this dynamic, if his daughter is behaving like a spoiled brat at her age well-- who made her a spoiled brat? The OP's made this mess.
> 
> HumbledStriver wrote:
> 
> ...


So imposing rules on a spoiled child suddenly makes him the bad guy? I am truly at a loss. He clearly is a monster for daring to do that. 

Whatever merit your other points have (and there is much there) is lost in citing this to support the daughter.

I will leave you to this thread.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> That seems like an understatement to me. I am glad that you have a good arrangement, but I have to ask how well that would work if this stuff happened regularly. I mean, are all interactions with your husbands family tentative with the possibility that your family will want to do something with you until you arrive? I am sure they are not, and I am positive that you two have reasonable discussions to figure out how to work things. But if a step-daughter refused to move things around (that she could) even if you planned things out a couple of months, how understanding would you be? Then again, perhaps if I lived this I would be less bothered by it.
> 
> I will say that I continue to pause at the idea that the OP should break his word merely because his daughter insists that he should. That bothers me on a fundamental level.


I agree. He could easily reward bad bahavior if his daughter had some flexibility in the orientation date. If she flat out had no choice of date then that's a different situation and I think that's more of what Emerald is picturing (two un-avoidable conflcting events). But that's not what OP has presented. 

But I go a step further again and it wouldn't even matter to me. A graduation ceremony is worthy of respect and I would be there for my step son before going with my own son for something he's supposed to be doing. If our children can't go to orientation by them selves then don't bother paying for the first semester of tuition because it's a waste.

Maybe holding our kids hand's are the American way. My way with my three boys was to give them the confidence to deal with these things like adults and that's what they did. I've attended two graduations and several military ceremonies for my kids but never went to a single orientation. Why would I? It's their life and their business to handle.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> I agree. He could easily reward bad bahavior if his daughter had some flexibility in the orientation date. If she flat out had no choice of date then that's a different situation and I think that's more of what Emerald is picturing (two un-avoidable conflcting events). But that's not what OP has presented.
> 
> But I go a step further again and it wouldn't even matter to me. A graduation ceremony is worthy of respect and I would be there for my step son before going with my own son for something he's supposed to be doing. If our children can't go to orientation by them selves then don't bother paying for the first semester of tuition because it's a waste.
> 
> Maybe holding our kids hand's are the American way. My way with my three boys was to give them the confidence to deal with these things like adults and that's what they did. I've attended two graduations and several military ceremonies for my kids but never went to a single orientation. Why would I? It's their life and their business to handle.


How is the graduation of a step-kid that the OP hardly knows more important than his own daughter? The step-son has lived 900 miles away. The wife also moved 900 miles away. So the OP does not live with his wife. He has apparently had very little contact with the step-son.

Yes, high school graduation is an important event in a kid's life.

Entering college is also a very important event. Something like 10%-15% of our population goes to college and finishes it. So the girl's college orientation is a rare event.

Most college orientations these days have events for both the student and parents. There are things planned that include both student and parent. For example there is usually a parent/student dinner with speakers from the University, etc. There is a chance for the students and parents to mingle. There is usually also a joint breakfast with parents/students. 

Since the orientation lasts for 2 days, I don't think that it's just the student signing up for classes and walking around campus. there is a lot more to this.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> How is the graduation of a step-kid that the OP hardly knows more important than his own daughter?


No one including me has implied that his step son should be as important to him as his daughter. Why this is painted as a black and white issue I don't know. Maybe he shouldn't go to his daughter's orientation purely because of manipulation and disrespect for his request avoid that day. But I stand my opinion that orientation not a memerable event. 



EleGirl said:


> Yes, high school graduation is an important event in a kid's life.
> 
> Entering college is also a very important event. Something like 10%-15% of our population goes to college and finishes it. So the girl's college orientation is a rare event.
> 
> ...


She's not just starting school. She's also starting life as an adult and she's being manipulative (OP's own feelings). Not a very good start and not something I would ever reward my own children for and I've had many oportunities to do it. My kids have no doubts that I love them but we don't play emotional blackmail games.

But in the end the argument: "how can he pick his step son (with snarled lip) over his daaauuughter" is the easy way and would keep him from holding her accountable for her lack of care of his schedule or possibly just her lack of planning. Teenagers and on up into their early twenties are masters as playing the victom and it's our job to not play into it.


----------



## Topical storm (Mar 30, 2013)

Who's Paying for her college tuition? Housing? Books? Food and Miscellaneous items?

Does she have a Job? When kids get out of line they need to be taught a lesson. How does she have the audacity to say this to you and she hasn't entered college yet? and I assume she is not self sufficient.

If this was my daughter and she said this to me, then I would show her just how important she wants me to be. I guarantee that would NEVER come out of her mouth again.


----------



## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

This is as simple as it gets. The daughter is giving a loud, clear, consistent message to the dad: she doesn't feel important to him. The dad even picked up on this per the title of his thread.

This whole thread is a lively discussion on whether or not the daughter deserves to feel this way.

Anyone can argue that she "should" or "shouldn't", or that she's "entitled". Or even that the days that she feels are important are not actually important.

Whatever. The daughter shared her true feelings. The daughter communicated in a way that the OP understood. 

His answer seems to consistently be that his new family is more important. 

There is a lot of focus on the daughter, but really what this comes down to is the OP. My recommendation to him is just to own it and have a frank talk with the daughter. Let her know that you love her. She is grown and you have to make your new wife the priority- the new wife is who you hope to grow old with and who will share the days of your life.

Your daughter will likely hate it and rebel, but in time she might come to understand it. It is certainly more respectful and more manly than ducking the issue and trying to blameshift YOUR priorities on her as being unreasonable/spoiled etc.

And please don't argue that your new family isn't the priority. Just own it and go with it. It is your best chance of having an ending where your grown daughter includes you in her life. Acknowledge the truth and work with her on it to the strongest extent possible.


----------



## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

Topical storm said:


> Who's Paying for her college tuition? Housing? Books? Food and Miscellaneous items?
> 
> Does she have a Job? When kids get out of line they need to be taught a lesson. How does she have the audacity to say this to you and she hasn't entered college yet? and I assume she is not self sufficient.
> 
> If this was my daughter and she said this to me, then I would show her just how important she wants me to be. I guarantee that would NEVER come out of her mouth again.


I don't get this at all. Who says the Dad is paying for anything? The OP didn't say he was paying for anything. He seems to be wringing his hands over this, so my thought is, if he could talk about how ungrateful she is due to finances he probably would have mentioned it. But, this could an unfair assumption on my part.

What if the daughter is paying for everything? What if she just wanted her dad to be with her for her first days of college and last days pre-launch? Would this change your thoughts?

I can appreciate a hard-hitter; I am one myself. I have to wonder though, what if his daughter grows into a hard-hitter? The OP is running a very strong risk of being eliminated from his daughter's life once she is fully grown. I think his chances of being at her wedding or seeing his blood grandchildren from her are shaky at best.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

RoseAglow said:


> This is as simple as it gets. The daughter is giving a loud, clear, consistent message to the dad: she doesn't feel important to him. The dad even picked up on this per the title of his thread.
> 
> This whole thread is a lively discussion on whether or not the daughter deserves to feel this way.
> 
> ...


Didn't know where you were going with this at the start out but it's the right solution for sure. And yes she will rebel. She's used to a safety net and she's had methods of getting her way with dear ole dad so she won't like it changing. It's important for him to explain the reasons. Better late than never though.


----------



## Topical storm (Mar 30, 2013)

RoseAglow said:


> I don't get this at all. Who says the Dad is paying for anything? The OP didn't say he was paying for anything. He seems to be wringing his hands over this, so my thought is, if he could talk about how ungrateful she is due to finances he probably would have mentioned it. But, this could an unfair assumption on my part.
> 
> What if the daughter is paying for everything? What if she just wanted her dad to be with her for her first days of college and last days pre-launch? Would this change your thoughts?
> 
> I can appreciate a hard-hitter; I am one myself. I have to wonder though, what if his daughter grows into a hard-hitter? The OP is running a very strong risk of being eliminated from his daughter's life once she is fully grown. I think his chances of being at her wedding or seeing his blood grandchildren from her are shaky at best.


That's why I asked who's paying for schooling, because I don't know. If the daughter is paying for everything then fine, she's grown enough to say that. But her father is not obligated to hold her hand for an orientation which is pretty insignificant on the life scale. I'm going to assume this child is 18 because I can't imagine a more mature 20-something yr old adult that's starting college, wanting their father to attend an orientation, and that be a breaking point in their relationship. The statement is immature.

But you're right, this situation was created by the OP. So ultimately he has to look himself in the mirror on why this situation has been created. However, a child needs to stay in a child's place. If she wants to make grown woman statements, then she needs to know there will be grown reprecussions.

His daughter grows into a hard hitter? Okay and? Obviously he felt the statement was disrespectful. No parent should tolerate disrespect from a child. Obviously you don't think she is fully grown. I think you're going overboard with the no shows at weddings and grandchildren. I don't think the situation is that in depth. Just a young emotional girl that is out of line and needs to be put in her place.


----------



## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

Topical storm said:


> That's why I asked who's paying for schooling, because I don't know. If the daughter is paying for everything then fine, she's grown enough to say that. But her father is not obligated to hold her hand for an orientation which is pretty insignificant on the life scale. I'm going to assume this child is 18 because I can't imagine a more mature 20-something yr old adult that's starting college, wanting their father to attend an orientation, and that be a breaking point in their relationship. The statement is immature.
> 
> But you're right, this situation was created by the OP. So ultimately he has to look himself in the mirror on why this situation has been created. However, a child needs to stay in a child's place. If she wants to make grown woman statements, then she needs to know there will be grown reprecussions.
> 
> His daughter grows into a hard hitter? Okay and? Obviously he felt the statement was disrespectful. No parent should tolerate disrespect from a child. Obviously you don't think she is fully grown. I think you're going overboard with the no shows at weddings and grandchildren. I don't think the situation is that in depth. Just a young emotional girl that is out of line and needs to be put in her place.


I can agree to disagree with you that his daughter is "emotional", "out of line", and "needs to be put in her place."

BTW I don't think it is immature for an 18 y/o to want her parents to attend her College Orientation. Parents are meant to be there- they are an expected part of the Orientation, with their own groups, sessions, etc. I disagree that this is "hand-holding", I think it is part of the rite of passage of starting college. 

So, if I were his daughter, I'd look closely to see whose rite of passage was important enough for the Father's attendance. 

I think the daughter is rightly ticked off that his wife's rite of passage (seeing her son graduate) took precedence over her own. 

Re the wedding/grandchild thing:

If this was a one-time thing, then yeah, I would say this is a disagreement between them that doesn't have much depth. 

However, if you look back at the OP's other posts, you'll see that he has a troubled history with his daughter. His daughter has told him numerous times that she feels displaced, not a part of the family with him, and that her needs/wants come 2nd to his new wife's. 

I don't think that so much that this specific issue is what would detonate the OP/Daughter relationship; it is the continuing pattern that would do it. 

If his daughter grows up with good boundaries and healthy self-esteem, she won't continue to try to contact her dad when he consistently pushes her aside and gives her a low priority. She will update her priority accordingly.

You can read back on the other threads started by the OP and you will see posters who tell him that they no longer do much with or see their fathers after similar experiences. It is really not all that uncommon. (Can happen with mothers, too.)

It took nearly a decade for my FIL to re-establish a decent relationship with my SIL after the FIL/MIL divorce, and that was without the FIL having his new wife in my SIL's life. Even today, he knows she loves him but he is down considerably on her priority list.

I actually feel badly for the OP. He is in a tough spot. His is a sad example of why 2nd marriages so often fail when there are blended families.


----------



## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

RoseAglow said:


> I think the daughter is rightly ticked off that his wife's rite of passage (seeing her son graduate) took precedence over her own.


That's not how I see it. I see it as the OP telling his daughter that she takes precedence over his stepson and his wife on every single day of the summer, except for two, which can't be changed. And his daughter scheduled her orientation on those days, just to sh!t test her father.

Now, we have most of the commenters on this thread either excusing the daughter as being a victim of circumstance based on nothing more than assumptions, or we have them acknowledging that she is sh!t testing her father, and then recommending that the father surrender to her sh!t test.

My children are the most important people in my life. But if I tell them that I am unavailable on a certain day, that means I am unavailable. Pick a different day. Period.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Change a few pronouns and all of a sudden this woman's son looks like a spoiled momma's boy. Wonder if this thread would have gotten all of the projection? Obviously it wouldn't have. This is so comical.



> My son is graduating HS in May. He's going to nearby college. I've been helping him with registration, etc. I've been separated since 05. Divorced since 06. I went overboard (my view) protecting my son from "pain" during and after divorce. Spoiled him. I don't feel he respects me. His dad and I not on good terms. I remarried 11 months ago. My husband and I are living back and forth in two states for a time. His daughter graduates in June. My son picked dates for college orientation. I told him when he let me know (this was some time ago) I was planing on being gone then (for step-daughter's grad). Orientation packet came with the conflicting dates. I reminded (in email about the material) him I planned on being out of state that week. Offered he could go with his dad, his future roommate or by himself (he's capable) if he didn't want to reschedule. He blasted txt back saying it was the two most important days of his summer and he wasn't going to change his dates to accommodate my travel (even though shifting by a mere two days would do it). He said if it meant enough to me I'd be there. I sent him orientation dates that would work for me. No word from him. Am I wrong for thinking he should move his dates and not put me in the position of choosing one or the other?


----------



## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

Thundarr said:


> Change a few pronouns and all of a sudden this woman's son looks like a spoiled momma's boy. Wonder if this thread would have gotten all of the projection? Obviously it wouldn't have. This is so comical.


I think it would be very unusual for a male to come back verbally with an emotional rant. Most of the guys I know would just drop it.

For instance, my DH's parents had a very acrimonious divorce when he was in his earlyish 20s. When DH got married to his first wife two years later, neither of his parents were invited. Too much drama. He just didn't bother to discuss/negotiate it with them.


----------



## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> That's not how I see it. I see it as the OP telling his daughter that she takes precedence over his stepson and his wife on every single day of the summer, except for two, which can't be changed. And his daughter scheduled her orientation on those days, just to sh!t test her father.


Based on this thread only, I can see how you feel he OP has his daughter as priority on any other day. However, if you look back on his previous threads, you'll see that it is not the case.

[Quote Now, we have most of the commenters on this thread either excusing the daughter as being a victim of circumstance based on nothing more than assumptions, or we have them acknowledging that she is sh!t testing her father, and then recommending that the father surrender to her sh!t test.[/Quote

The daughter is a victim- her family is broken up, and now her dad is pushing her out for the new wife. BTW in his other posts the OP says she is a good, responsible girl, not a sh1t-stirrer in general. She doesn't fight with him over money or goods per his past posts- just his time and attention. It seems clear to me that she is really hurting.

[Quote My children are the most important people in my life. But if I tell them that I am unavailable on a certain day, that means I am unavailable. Pick a different day. Period.[/QUOTE]

That's great, and I assume you have a solid relationship with your kids.

The daughter does NOT have a good relationship with her dad, and it is going downhill.

Let's assume that the daughter picked the one weekend that her dad isn't available (per the post); let's go one step farther and say that she KNOWS the dad is supposed to go with "new family" to the son's graduation. 

In Woman language, this is a direct challenge and question, and it is one that the OP obviously picked up because of how he titled the post. She is saying " Show me how you REALLY feel, Dad."

You might call it a boundary, but it will likely never be that way to her. It will be a sign of how he really feels and where she stands. He can call it a boundary and she will say He cared more about his boundaries than being there for me.

The really sad thing is, I don't yet get why it has to be adversarial. If his daughter is so hurt, why is it such a big deal for the OP and his wife to do their own kid's event- the last few Child-to-Adult transitions for both of them, then come together as their own "children are grown" family unit? That would seem to be the best option IMO.

Last, just cuz I am on a roll. I am not sure I am as much projecting as just applying what I've learned and seen. Who knows how the daughter will really react? 

I have witnessed "parents gone bad" relationships- thankfully not within my own FOO (and my little one is too young for that drama), but definitely my DH, SIL, and their (divorced) dad. My DH is OK with his parents now, but my SIL still has issues with the FIL. It's gotten much better with time, and hopefully will continue to do so.

Also, my BFF and her younger sister have a rough relationship with their divorced-with-stepmom dad. The BFF has a tenuous relationship but does reach out. Her younger sister did not invite her father to either of her 2 weddings (1st one ended due to husband cheating.) She has kids now and the dad gets to see the grandkids at holidays, but not much else.

However, all of us are pretty strong-willed and independent people. Not everyone reacts in the same way.

I hope that the OP gets back to us. Hopefully either the daughter re-scheduled, or that he and his new wife agreed for each of them to be there for their child's event. He is in a tough spot, but now that both his and his new wife's children are becoming adults (my assumption due to the son's weekend for graduation) they will be able to carve out their own new life without hard feelings from their offspring.


----------



## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

RoseAglow said:


> Based on this thread only, I can see how you feel he OP has his daughter as priority on any other day. However, if you look back on his previous threads, you'll see that it is not the case.


He said in this thread that he offered her any day in the summer, except the two she decided on. So I'll take him at his word. I don't believe his past actions would change that fact.



> The daughter is a victim- her family is broken up, and now her dad is pushing her out for the new wife. BTW in his other posts the OP says she is a good, responsible girl, not a sh1t-stirrer in general. She doesn't fight with him over money or goods per his past posts- just his time and attention. It seems clear to me that she is really hurting.


The fact that she doesn't sh!t test him generally doesn't change the fact that she's doing it now.



> Let's assume that the daughter picked the one weekend that her dad isn't available (per the post); let's go one step farther and say that she KNOWS the dad is supposed to go with "new family" to the son's graduation.
> 
> In Woman language, this is a direct challenge and question, and it is one that the OP obviously picked up because of how he titled the post. She is saying " Show me how you REALLY feel, Dad."
> 
> You might call it a boundary, but it will likely never be that way to her. It will be a sign of how he really feels and where she stands. He can call it a boundary and she will say He cared more about his boundaries than being there for me.


The thing is, it's unreasonable. Let's say that the daughter is hurt. Let's say that her request is just a sh!t test to ask her father to prove how much he loves her. That still doesn't mean he should surrender to her frame.

Imagine for a moment that she wasn't asking him to skip his stepson's graduation and come to her function. Let's say that she asked her father to walk up to a police officer and punch him in the face. Obviously, he'll be arrested and sent to jail.

Now, the request is obviously unreasonable. But what if that's what will make her feeeel better? Would you still recommend that her father just suck it up and give in to her demands? I wouldn't. I would recommend that he behave reasonably and expect her to do the same.

If he behaves reasonably with her this time, and in the future, his relationship with his daughter won't deteriorate any further because of him. If it deteriorates, it will be because of his daughter's unreasonable behavior.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> The thing is, it's unreasonable. Let's say that the daughter is hurt. Let's say that her request is just a sh!t test to ask her father to prove how much he loves her. That still doesn't mean he should surrender to her frame.
> 
> Imagine for a moment that she wasn't asking him to skip his stepson's graduation and come to her function. Let's say that she asked her father to walk up to a police officer and punch him in the face. Obviously, he'll be arrested and sent to jail.
> 
> ...


Yes it is unreasonable, but she isn't asking him to do a random thing to prove his love, she is seeing if he will do something unreasonable for her as he has in the past for his wife (which hurt her massively).

Good chance it is a sh*t test and I don't automatically think he should do it, but focusing on the request more than the root of the problem isn't going to help at all.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

It should have never gotten this far. OP has to man up and handle this crap. Here's what I think I would do if I somehow let it get to this place.

1. I'd go to orientation and me and my daughter would have a long talk about manipulation and respect and how she feels and how I feel. I'd explain that I'm there for her but will not play games. Not one more time. That respect goes two directions.

2. I'd tell my wife that I'm going to orientation and explain why and explain what me and my daughter will talk about.

My daughter and wife neither have to like the choices. They should understand however that I've defined how I feel and what I'll do given similar circumstances. I would only have to say this once but I suspect OP will have to say it and then prove it at least once because they won't believe him.


----------



## hotsthrnmess (Dec 5, 2012)

HumbledStriver said:


> My daughter is graduating HS in May. She is going to nearby college. I've been helping her with registration, etc. I've been separated since 05. Divorced since 06. I went overboard (my view) protecting my daughter from "pain" during and after divorce. Spoiled her. I don't feel she respects me. Her mother and I not on good terms. I remarried 11 months ago. My wife and I are living back and forth in two states for a time. Her son graduates in June. *My daughter picked dates for college orientation. I told her when she let me know (this was some time ago) I was planing on being gone then (for step-son's grad).* Orientation packet came with the conflicting dates. I reminded (in email about the material) her I planned on being out of state that week. Offered she could go with her mom, her future roommate or by herself (she's capable) if she didn't want to reschedule. She blasted txt back saying it was the two most important days of her summer and she wasn't going to change her dates to accommodate my travel (even though shifting by a mere two days would do it). She said if it meant enough to me I'd be there. I sent her orientation dates that would work for me. No word from her. Am I wrong for thinking she should move her dates and not put me in the position of choosing on or the other?


I just wanted to chime in and say that from what the OP has written, his daughter was not told beforehand of the graduation date. It looks like she chose the orientation dates, then he came back and said that they would not work, and as a result she said she would not change it. I think this changes the dynamic. I don't believe the daughter purposefully picked conflicting dates (from the info/timeline given). Since she chose them before knowing any better, and me playing the devil's advocate, why should she change them now? If she picked them before learning of the graduation then having Dad tell her to change them, coupled with their past issues, I can understand why she would be upset. Whether people agree or not, orientation is an important time for a new college student and having your parent there to support you is important as well. She specifically asked her father to go, not her mother, not her roommate, nor to go by herself and now she is being asked to change her sched. for her dad and by default her step-mom. But, I could be completely off base.


----------



## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

hotsthrnmess said:


> Since she chose them before knowing any better, and me playing the devil's advocate, why should she change them now?


Because there are multiple dates for orientation and one date for graduation. That dictates that it is more reasonable for the daughter to change her orientation date than for the father to skip his stepson's graduation.

For example, say you've been meaning to invite your neighbor to dinner. You just pick a date out of the air that has no special significance to you. Your neighbor then tells you that his daughter is getting married on that day, so he can't make it. It would be unreasonable to expect him to skip his daughter's wedding in order to attend your dinner party. His daughter's wedding can't be changed. Your dinner party can. One understandably takes precedence over the other.


----------



## Angel5112 (Jul 25, 2011)

She intentionally chose these dates to cause a conflict. She needs to grow up and realize that while she is still a priority (an important one) that you also have other priorities. She needs to accept that you are remarried. She also needs to realize that it isn't okay to cause unnecessary turmoil. She may be angry over it, but it will be a good life lesson for her. 

My parents divorced when I was 5. My mother remarried about 6 years later and I loved my step-father dearly. I wanted him at my events just as much as I wanted my father there. My father has picked his new families (he has remarried twice) over me and mine on numerous occasions, some reasons important, some not. While the latter hurts me and hurts our relationship, I am (and was at 18) adult enough to realize that my father has a life outside of me. If I am planning something and he gives me a list of days he is unavailable for whatever reason, then I will do my best to be accommodating. If I have to schedule it on one of those days then I wouldn’t be upset or surprised that he couldn’t make it. End of story. To do anything else is petty and childish. Do you think it is a good idea to reward petty and childish behavior?

Parents are more concerned with making their children feel "good" about themselves than teaching them life lessons and allowing them to gain maturity through their experiences. I think that causes more damage than whatever it was that hurt their feelings in the first place.

*edit*
I agree the dynamic changes if she picked the dates before she knew of the conflict, but she is still being unreasonable by refusing to change the date when it is an available option. I hope she can get over the initial hurt and change her mind.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

lol totally missed that.


----------



## hotsthrnmess (Dec 5, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> Because there are multiple dates for orientation and one date for graduation. That dictates that it is more reasonable for the daughter to change her orientation date than for the father to skip his stepson's graduation.
> 
> For example, say you've been meaning to invite your neighbor to dinner. You just pick a date out of the air that has no special significance to you. Your neighbor then tells you that his daughter is getting married on that day, so he can't make it. It would be unreasonable to expect him to skip his daughter's wedding in order to attend your dinner party. His daughter's wedding can't be changed. Your dinner party can. One understandably takes precedence over the other.


While I can understand your example, it is a little different in that of course I would expect my neighbor to choose the wedding over my dinner party. It's his daughter's wedding. The scenario doesn't really match the one presented. 

OP's daughter chose her dates. That's all we know. OP said she won't change them. OP never stated why, so it's not as simple as saying that she just wants to be stubborn and not change them or that she's doing it on purpose. Yes, that is a possibility, but there is always the other side of the story. 

With all of the issues surrounding what appears to be her dad picking his new wife's desires over her, I can understand why she would be upset. Yes, the divorce happened many years ago BUT people are failing to acknowledge that this relationship is probably still something to get adjusted to. People take all different lengths of time to adjust to new changes. 

Agree or not, this is important to HIS DAUGHTER. I think that in itself should be enough. Yes, graduations are important, but her daughter wants him to attend this orientation, as it is a big event for her. If he passes it up to attend the step-son's graduation, I can definitely see why OP's daughter will be hurt.

But, let's all just remember that this is all just speculation since OP hasn't specified anything.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

It surprising to me that most of us will jump on blankets statements about kids not being prepared for life and to have expectations of them and to not emotionally crippled or enable them yet when we have a real example laid out in front of us, emotions override logic and all of a sudden this mean ole dad is being insensitive to his poor little daughter. That's what gets people (and probably OP) into these situations to begin with is catering to their kids and then expecting some light switch to go off and poof they become responsible capable adults ready to do for them selves.

I just don't think OP's daughter is prepared for college or life and breaking his commitments for something every young adult is capable of doing themselves or with their other parent is not going to help her at all. It will just prolong the power play for his attention going on that he's likely very responsible for. 

If she grows up, she'll look back on this years from now and feel guilty about it. Kids always internalize guilt when we let them get away with things we don't think is right.


----------

