# Head verses heart



## JustSomeGuy68 (Apr 11, 2016)

Yep, another head versus heart question. I have a feeling I'm going to be lambasted, but here goes nothing.

Wife and I have been married for 21 years, both in our mid/late 40's. We have 5 kids (20, 16, 8, 5, 2). About 6 years ago, we were going through a rough time financially and overall life-wise. Instead of turning to me, she turned to an ex-boyfriend (her first love and lengthy history) and started texting, calling, meeting. Nothing physical other than a single event where they held hands, and maybe the occasional hug. However, there was enough flirting and what-if discussions where I feel it was an emotional affair. I called him and told him to cease and desist. It was late at night while he was at home so he was forced to tell his wife. Rules were set...no contact requested by both myself and his wife. Since then, we have had two kids and so have they.

Years pass and no contact. Events have happened to create additional issues with our marriage and we basically move toward best friends living together with occasional sex to alleviate stress and have fun. We are not in love with one another any longer, but we play house and get along for the sake of the family. Again, we start going through a difficult time where she can't find a new job. Who does she turn to? Of course. She starts texting him and asking for prayers for a new job and discussing dreams and shared music (supposedly innocent) and then it turns flirtatious with somewhat innocent pictures being sent by her (headshots only). I confront her with it and she says it was all innocent but even admitted to him in the texts that she knew it was "against the rules". I again notified him that I knew and also shared the texts with his wife so she can make an informed decision as well. My wife calls it possessive and says I don't own her. That's not my position, but I feel there is a significant lack of respect in this marriage.

What the hell do I even make of it anymore? I don't expect we will ever be in love with one another again, but we have so much of our lives intertwined, especially with younger kids. I don't want to be a part-time dad even through an expected shared custody agreement. Neither of us really wants to start over and other than this one guy, I believe her. But, her carrying this torch for him has had me looking over my shoulder for 20 years. I don't know why I thought it would ever go away.

Was I wrong through any of my actions?

Am I crazy for wanting to stay for the sake of the kids? We can pretend quite well that we're happy.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Nope, you weren't wrong. All you did was to clue the other guy's wife into what was going on... again.

All the talk about possession, etc is nothing more than faux feminist bullsh*t aimed at shaming you into feeling like a knuckle-dragging neanderthal.

She's right, though -- you don't "own" her. In fact, the only way that a man can ever "own" a woman (or vice versa) is for her to willingly -- and fully -- give herself to him.

And she's not doing that.

_At least not for you._

So cut her loose.

(Also, I'd probably DNA the youngest 2 kids.)


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

You weren't wrong in your actions. If pretending you're happily married gets you off, then there you go. And, for God's sake, get a vasectomy! You have two generations of kids already. Your twenty year old is going to feel more like a parent than a sibling.


----------



## JustSomeGuy68 (Apr 11, 2016)

All my kids are mine, there is no doubt. Timeframes accounted for and quite honestly, they all look and act like the two of us combined.

And yes, I agree I don't own her. Those were strictly her words and not any implication from me.

Thank you for your opinion. All are welcome.


----------



## JustSomeGuy68 (Apr 11, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> And, for God's sake, get a vasectomy!


Uh, yeah. I agree that five is enough. Cut, tied and cauterized. Any more and I know they are not mine.

Thank you for your feedback.


----------



## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

Crappy situation. I'm in the middle of divorcing my wife and we have two young kids, 3 and 5. Sucks but damn if I'm going to live in a miserable marriage. I'm 34 and in the past 3 months of being separated, I'm having the best sex in my entire life (with the new g/f). You only have one life!

Sounds like you have a couple choices. Wait until the young kids are older, 3-5 more years, and divorce. Or divorce her now. You can't wait another 16 years until the youngest graduates, you'll be over 60. Your prime years are going by quickly now, don't live with regret in 10 years.

Hopefully you got snipped so no more kids!


----------



## JustSomeGuy68 (Apr 11, 2016)

GuyInColorado said:


> You only have one life!
> 
> Your prime years are going by quickly now, don't live with regret in 10 years.


You're probably right. I did not mention I am also faced with a hereditary kidney condition that currently has no cure, so I'm already faced with declining health if I don't take exceptional care of myself, which I try to do. Might be time to move to a state where medicinal herbs are readily available. LOL

Thank you for your feedback.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Honestly, I might give it another year, but ONLY if she were to agree to a) having absolutely NO contact w/ OM going forward and b) attending counseling (IC, MC, etc -- whatever would be appropriate) in order to jumpstart your marriage and get it back on track.

How much alone time do you guys have to spend w/ each other -- and no one else! -- each week?

How often are you able (and willing) to take weekends away or vacations w/ only the two of you?

Do you have ANY hobbies, activities, etc that don't involve working, paying bills, or wrangling children that you could do together?

If you're going to push forward in this marriage, you're going to have to have some common ground to stand upon, along w/ a commitment (from the both of you) to get even more and to tend all of it well.

Otherwise, I say end it now.


----------



## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

So stay in the marriage until your children are grown. You might even fall back in love again. It doesn't sound like they have had any physical interaction. I would be asking why she turns to him instead of yourself when she wants to talk to someone. She should be turning to you and for some reason she isn't comfortable doing that. If you can figure out that then you won't have a reason not to trust her. Why is she looking for a job when you have so many children? She should be home raising them.


----------



## JustSomeGuy68 (Apr 11, 2016)

GusPolinski said:


> Honestly, I might give it another year, but ONLY if she were to agree to a) having absolutely NO contact w/ OM going forward and b) attending counseling (IC, MC, etc -- whatever would be appropriate) in order to jumpstart your marriage in order to get it back on track.
> 
> How much alone time do you guys have to spend w/ each other -- and no one else! -- each week?
> 
> ...


So let's see. I've officially blocked his number on AT&T and his wife now knows, so there should be no further contact. Counseling has been suggested, but we are waiting until she lands another job, which will take us to a new city.

Our money is being spent on bills or saving up for my daughter's wedding next year, but we have talked about taking vacations, which we haven't had in years.

Our lives are full, so spending alone time is limited to dinners out and trips to the store.

I've also not developed new friendships where we are currently, because it was only expected we'd be here 18 months.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

JustSomeGuy68 said:


> So let's see. *I've officially blocked his number on AT&T and his wife now knows, so there should be no further contact.* Counseling has been suggested, but we are waiting until she lands another job, which will take us to a new city.
> 
> Our money is being spent on bills or saving up for my daughter's wedding next year, but we have talked about taking vacations, which we haven't had in years.
> 
> ...


All he has to do in order to get around the block is to get another number.

The better option would be to have your wife change her number(s).


----------



## JustSomeGuy68 (Apr 11, 2016)

Happilymarried25 said:


> So stay in the marriage until your children are grown. You might even fall back in love again. It doesn't sound like they have had any physical interaction. I would be asking why she turns to him instead of yourself when she wants to talk to someone. She should be turning to you and for some reason she isn't comfortable doing that. If you can figure out that then you won't have a reason not to trust her. Why is she looking for a job when you have so many children? She should be home raising them.


For whatever reason, she's always sought his approval and tends to think I'm not supportive, which I don't believe is the truth. I just think the way I support her is not what she wants. After all, when you reach out to someone you're not married to it's easy to fall into grass-is-greener syndrome. She is a career woman and my job allows me to work from home. I don't have a problem with that except that we can't seem to stay in one place because she runs into unhealthy work situations.


----------



## JustSomeGuy68 (Apr 11, 2016)

GusPolinski said:


> All he has to do in order to get around the block is to get another number.
> 
> The better option would be to have your wife change her number(s).


yeah, except she's the one who always initiates contact. This way, she gets a message that his number has been blocked if she tries to initiate contact so she knows I'm not playing around any more.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

JustSomeGuy, welcome aboard. Sorry you're here.

First things first. She did have two affairs with this guy. One was physical with hugs and probably a kiss. Not sexual, but still there was physical contact. The latest was limited to emotional. Yup, your wife has cheated. Now this is not as bad as many affairs we all know of in real life and have seen on this forum, but nevertheless these are affairs which need to be dealt with.

This is not going to go away simply by ignoring it. You need to determine that you can trust her long term. You also need to believe that she is into you. These events have completely destroyed your ability to believe those things. She has to take certain actions to prove, repeatedly and consistently over time, that she does love you and is loyal to you.

In many ways it is like the addict who has to hit rock bottom before recovering. Your wife has to reach capitulation. She has to completely let go of this OM in every way. She has to surrender control of the outcome (divorce or reconciliation) to you. She has to show genuine remorse for hurting you and the family. She has to take actions to prove her continued love and loyalty.

That's a lot of stuff! And it is the opposite of silently ignoring what happened.

Right now I think good quality marriage counseling with someone who understands infidelity would be a good start. Be sure the therapist doesn't blame you in any way. You (like all of us) were imperfect as a spouse. But you didn't cheat, did you? You didn't run to somebody else. Your wife made those choices multiple times, even when she knew how hurtful it was to you and that she was risking the marriage. So, you need a therapist who will hold your W's feet to the fire on her responsibility for choosing to cheat.

Note that you are building what amounts to a whole new marriage. So it is good to talk about what things you both can do to be better spouses. But don't let the therapist or your wife turn this into some kind of excuse for your wife's affairs.

More later when I can. My situation is not unlike yours, I'm just further down the road.


----------



## JustSomeGuy68 (Apr 11, 2016)

Thor said:


> JustSomeGuy, welcome aboard. Sorry you're here.


Thanks, Thor. I really appreciate your words and look forward to hearing much more from you. I agree counseling is advisable, but her view of counseling is that it more often than not breaks up the marriage. She's also made it pretty clear she has lost the desire to love me again. So, again I am faced with whether or not I want to be a part-time dad through shared custody or a full-time dad and put my own happiness on the back burner for the sake of my kids. 

Despite many people providing very valuable feedback, I have a tough time being in a place where I'm ready to "pull the trigger" so to speak on a move that will split up the family.


----------



## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

JustSomeGuy,

I think that a very long time ago your WW fell out of romantic love with you, your WW continued to have sex with you but I would suspect that the kissing felt empty and you had sex when your WW had the physical need. 

WW may have expected to get back with her exBF at sometime in the future, so in a sense you were the 2nd choice to her fantasy relationship, ignoring the defects of OM for the moment, and may never had had a real marriage. This was my marriage until 2008, my W settled for me for all of the practical reasons. 

What you need to do now is expose the OM very broadly, work, family, church, facebook etc to establish that you will defend your marriage. Your children need to be told what is going on as well this is a painful consequence of your WWs affairs, but is necessary. 

You say that your WW has a difficult work history, could that be because she is also having affairs at work?

Get a polygraph for your WW.

I suggest you read "his needs her needs" and "surviving an affair" by Dr. Harley.

Tamat


----------



## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

JustSomeGuy,

And your WW told you she "hugged" OM, that sounds like a story they both agreed on before hand, waywards MINIMIZE, Hug = passoniate kissing, kissing = oral , oral = piv. Most likely given the history it was full on sex, but she is shielding OM until the kids are more independent and they can both divorce at some golden day in the future.

tamat


----------



## JustSomeGuy68 (Apr 11, 2016)

TAMAT said:


> What you need to do now is expose the OM very broadly, work, family, church, facebook etc to establish that you will defend your marriage. Your children need to be told what is going on as well this is a painful consequence of your WWs affairs, but is necessary.
> 
> You say that your WW has a difficult work history, could that be because she is also having affairs at work?


I know there are no others except this one guy. She has no desires for any other relationship.

I would be interested in hearing from others on exposing him to everyone. I try to shield the children from what's going on because 3 of the 5 are too young to understand. The oldest could care less what happens to me and the 16 year old would break down if he knew. I'm very close to her family and have reached out to her dad and one of her sisters to try and gain some insight into how to deal with her. She calls it alliance building and alienating her from her family, but I'd like to know what others think about this. I don't have many I can speak to about this, so seeking insight from family has helped.


----------



## EVG39 (Jun 4, 2015)

Tough Spot and sorry for your pain. Let me pose this question. Seems your game plan is, because of the age of the kids, the shared history, the financials, etc., etc. that you are willing to stay in a loveless marriage for at least the foreseeable future by which I mean about 10-15 years. I wonder if you are making a faulty assumption in thinking she is willing to make that kind of bargain as well. Is it possible that she might not be willing to be a party to that kind of deal anymore and that she might want to bring the marriage to an end sooner rather than later? I wonder because the place you are at has to be painful for both of you. Not everyone has the wherewithal to live that way for years on end.
I do think Thor is right. At a minimum I would offer to set up marriage counseling to see if we couldn't improve the situation in some manner.
But frankly I don't think you being her warden is a long term viable strategy. So ultimately the price you may have to pay to continue on with your arrangement as it is now, is to tacitly turn your back on what she does . You are going to have to think long and hard if you can accept that, because that may be what is necessary to keep the ship afloat the next decade and half. Some men could do it, some men would find it soul crushing. You have to decide what its worth to you.
Good Luck.


----------



## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Purposely staying a loveless marriage is harmful to you and to your children. You really are doing them no favors by doing so, and teaching them that living in dysfunction is acceptable. Would you advise your children to live as you do? Also, how are they supposed to deal with a cheating mother? Shield them all you want, they will find out. Your kids deserve better.


----------



## JustSomeGuy68 (Apr 11, 2016)

3Xnocharm said:


> Purposely staying a loveless marriage is harmful to you and to your children. You really are doing them no favors by doing so, and teaching them that living in dysfunction is acceptable. Would you advise your children to live as you do? Also, how are they supposed to deal a cheating mother? Shield them all you want, they will find out. Your kids deserve better.


I agree they deserve better, which is full time custody with me. Unfortunately, the courts don't see it that way. When the rules are not in your favor, you figure out how to make things work.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

JustSomeGuy68 said:


> Thanks, Thor. I really appreciate your words and look forward to hearing much more from you. I agree counseling is advisable, but her view of counseling is that it more often than not breaks up the marriage. She's also made it pretty clear she has lost the desire to love me again. So, again I am faced with whether or not I want to be a part-time dad through shared custody or a full-time dad and put my own happiness on the back burner for the sake of my kids.
> 
> Despite many people providing very valuable feedback, I have a tough time being in a place where I'm ready to "pull the trigger" so to speak on a move that will split up the family.


You get what you put up with. Your wife may or may not fall back in love with you, but ... if you don't change your strategy you won't get different results. Marriage counseling may or may not work, but the poor record is probably more related to the troubled marriages rather than bad therapy.

One strategy is to make an appointment at a time your wife could be there, then invite her. If she doesn't go, you go by yourself. My wife went but she didn't do the homework. We only went to 3 sessions. But this is useful data. If your wife doesn't go or if she doesn't do the work, you know she doesn't value the marriageor you. She stays for other reasons such as money or social appearances. If she does do the work, you may recover a good marriage, which is the best case and the preferred outcome.

When my wife got pregnant my Prime Directive became "divorce is not an option". This eliminated any leverage to make any positive changes in the marriage or family. She learned she could pretty much do what she wanted without consequence. She wanted to remain married but wasn't romantically interested in me. My apparent passivity was a turnoff ,too, I'm sure. Not that you or I were passive, but it can appear that way.

You can work on different behaviors and possibly rekindle her love and respect. However my caution is you make these changes for yourself, not to manipulate her or to please her. Be more declarative and definitive when interacting with her. Stop asking her to decide things like where to go or what to do. Improve your personal grooming and wardrobe. No More Mr. Nice Guy and Married Man's Sex Primer kinds of things.

While I am pro-marriage and hope for the best for you, I am not optimistic for you. It's worth a try. But I do regret not leaving a long time ago. Older kids actually have a harder tome with divorce. The longer you stay, the more stuck you are. When the kids leave, you'll have nothing in common with her and either you or she will likely end the marriage. Your kids are observing and learning from you what a marriage is. Do you really want them to duplicate your marriage when they get married?


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Do you think your wife was ever really into you?


----------



## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

It is worth it to stay together for the kids, but it's not worth it for you if it's just going to be a roomie situation with your wife. You are going to need to learn how to forgive (not forget), which means you will need to treat her like nothing has happened. You will both need to learn to trust each other again, then work together to find what it sounds like you have lost. You will need to deal with the feeling that you have been and are not being respected, although it's real obvious that it is true. Do I mean just complete deny and stuff what you are feeling? No. But you are never going to have the relationship you need nor will you have the companion that you need until you deal with those feelings.

You said that she asked the other man to pray for her. Is that something you can do with her? Sharing that kind of a relationship breaks down barriers and promotes honesty together. If you have that aspect to your own life and share faith in God with your wife, I encourage you to pursue that aspect of your relationship together. Pray for restoration, by yourself and together. Ask God to help you to trust each other. 

If you don't have that in your life, please excuse me for mentioning it.

Best wishes to you. May you come through this time with a stronger relationship with your wife, not a broken one.


----------



## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

That's funny. My xw said I don't own her too after i texted the OM and told him to fk off after he sexted my then wife. 

I also didn't "own" her when she decided to meet up with him on our anniversary, blowing me off and the dinner and evening reservations I made. 

You know what I did own? The payment on the divorce papers. Money gladly spent. 

That being said, I'm not a proponent of divorce, but sometimes shat happens. If you can get to the bottom of this, that's great. All good advise above.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Justsomeguy, here's a short version of my story.

My wife never got over her first real bf, the guy she lost her virginity to. He was older and a professional entertainer, charismatic and popular. He's still now 30 yrs later making a living as a regionally successful performer.

My wife and I met in college and married right after. We grew up in different but close towns, so our circles of friends were different.

When we'd go back to visit her friends, both while dating and after being married, the conversation would always turn to Assclown Musician Boy. Always. My wife's best friend also dated him after my wife did, so when we'd get together with her, she and my wife would talk for hours about the good old days with him. Even 30 yrs later. And it appears the friend has been in some kind of affair or fwb on and off with him.

At one party early in our marriage there was a discussion about his womanizing, taking home a different woman from each show. And, how he preferred married women. The men admired him, and the women were intrigued by him.

When we bought our first house a couple of years into marriage my wife retrieved a very nice cedar hope chest he had given her, which she wanted to place at the foot of our bed. I said no, so she put it in another room. She told me I was being stupid, he meant nothing to her.

At one point she convinced me to go to one of his shows. She arranged at the last minute for me to be his roadie, hauling all his crap in/ out of the venue, tune his guitars, etch. I stood off to the side of the stage, my wife sitting front row center, while he sang their song to her.

I was young, very stupid, and in love.

For many years we had little contact with her old friends, just a handful of get together with her best friend or contacts with the guy who was/is Assclown's best friend and who introduced him to my wife originally.

Then 5 yrs ago they became Facebook friends. Though I only ever saw a couple of messages, he was obviously looking for another taste. I don't think there is any way they met, as we live 2000 miles away. He does however live 5 minutes from the beach town we always go to for the family summer vacation. I was on high alert.

Anyhow, I asked my wife to unfriend him. She fought me and made a big scene about it. She did unfriend him but was pissed for a long time.

When she recently converted an unused bedroom into her own office, that cedar chest reappeared from the basement and has a central place.

Last year the guy who introduced my wife and Assclown tagged my wife and 3 or 4 others in a photo on Fb of him on stage. The caption was let's get together at an upcoming show, then talk about the good old times afterwards. My wife had nothing to do with the photo going up, but it bothered me that it was on the top of her Fb page whenever I looked at it. My wife hardly ever posts, so the photo would stay there for me and the world to see for a very long time.

I asked her to untag herself. She agreed, then walked 15 feet from where we had that brief and seemingly positive discussion to sit on the couch, where she picked up her laptop and played games on it for the rest of the evening. She did nothing about the photo for 2 weeks, when she hid the photo on her wall but did not untag herself.

The point of this story is to point out that your wife's actions, like my wife's, are not those of someone who cares about their spouse. Even though we can set some boundaries and get them to modify some of their behavior, the underlying factors don't change.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Apologies for the scattered posts, I'm on the north/south Central America run all week with spotty WiFi availability. Gotta say the US customs and immigration are more poorly run from a crewmember standpoint than other countries. Hotel breakfasts are better and healthier south of the border, too.

Anyhow, what I didn't really say explicitly is that you should trust her actions, not her words. What she does when she doesn't think you'll find out is a clear window into her mind. It tells you her true feelings and it reveals what I call her template on life and relationships.

In your case she shows a continued emotional connection to her ex. I think it is generally true that women tend to have a stronger permanent emotional bond to their first sex partner, and women also tend to have unfinished business if they were dumped rather than if they dumped the guy. Your wife also went back to him a second time even though she knew it was "against the rules", showing in her template it is ok to disrespect you and your marriage if she wants to. Contrast that with her feeling very unhappy and conflicted yet choosing to not have any contact with him. So she has feelings for him plus she crosses the infidelity line even after the problems caused the first time.

Try to see her actions as they are, not within a framework based on your values or beliefs. Like you're a neutral outsider. If you stick around here for a while and read numerous threads you will see this fog all the time.

Accept her for who she is. Try to understand how things are working in her mind. Now you can start to predict her future thoughts and actions to some extent. She isn't going to become a loving faithful wife, is she? Not unless something really big changes in her brain. This means even after the kids leave the nest she is not going to turn her affections to you. And you'll be older, less healthy, and have serious financial complications if you divorce. You'll be looking at a short timeline before retirement yet you'll lose half your assets. Financial advisors say the single worst financial decision a person over 50 can make wrt retirement is get divorced.

If you want to make the calculated decision to stay in a marriage for practical reasons, fine. I am pro_marriage and pro_family. Just don't stay under some delusion things will ever gg better or you'll learn to be happy.


----------

