# My Living Hell



## WalterWhite420

Well, as suggested by my IC, I'm posting my story here to try and cope and heal...

I've lurked here for many weeks, trying to get the courage to write about this...

This is so very difficult for me. The steamy details I've learned, and the horrid images in my mind, won't let me rest or even have hope...

Here goes...

My wife and I met in college, began dating and of course had regular sex, and fell very deeply in love. We married about a year after we graduated. We've now been married for 19 years. We have no children (a mutual choice), we both have good careers, and until a year ago I thought she and I were just so lucky to have married our soul mate on our first try...

But about a year ago I came home early from work due to sickness, and saw a strange car parked on the road in front of our house. I thought nothing of it and went inside, and heard strange sounds coming from our bedroom. I entered our bedroom and saw a horrible sight; a strange man on top of my wife, with her legs WRAPPED AROUND HIM, and him going to town like a Singer sewing machine...and her moaning in pleasure.

I'm a somewhat big/strong man, and I pulled him off her and beat the living **** out of him. I carried him outside (he was still naked) and dumped him in the street. He got in his car and drove away. Later I found out that he went to the hospital that night with a broken nose and jaw. Which proves that some tragedies have a small silver lining.

Anyway, my wife swore to me that it was a "first". Her lover was a co-worker than had pursued her relentlessly for years, and she finally gave in after a night of bar-hopping together while I was away tending to my sick mother. The affair continued for about a year until my above-described D Day.

After I beat the **** out of him, I told her to leave. Of course she pleaded and begged, swore that it "meant nothing", and pledged her love and committment to me. I didn't buy it.

Anyway, she left and we didn't talk for 2 weeks, mainly because I didn't answer her phone calls or emails.

More later. This is as much as I can bear to write now. I'm about to lose it again just recounting these details.


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## Philat

_ I carried him outside (he was still naked) and dumped him in the street. He got in his car and drove away._

Was he carrying his keys up his a$$?


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## WalterWhite420

Philat said:


> _ I carried him outside (he was still naked) and dumped him in the street. He got in his car and drove away._
> 
> Was he carrying his keys up his a$$?


Don't know man. ???


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## Caribbean Man

Sorry you're going through thisI hope that posting your story helps you come to terms with exactly what happened, [ assuming it's true]and enable you to move on with your life.

Cheating is low.
But bringing a strange man or woman into the marital home and having sex on the marriage bed takes someone with absolutely no moral values who cannot function above their sexual urges.

Well you got some of it out of your system by beating him and throwing him out naked. You need to find out if he's married or has a girlfriend, and expose him.
Then you put her out , and sought counselling for yourself, so far so good.

There are no kids involved, please think carefully before you take back this woman.
Already she has blamed her lover for "_ pursuing her relentlessly for years._"
Bullsh!t.
Why didn't she inform you?

Think carefully.
The woman who's telling those things is not your college sweetheart, she is a completely , different woman.


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## 12345Person

WalterWhite420 said:


> Don't know man. ???


The poster wants to know how the OM drove his car, if he was naked, where did he get the keys?

Not that I care, just explaining it to you.


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## WalterWhite420

Anonymous Person said:


> The poster wants to know how the OM drove his car, if he was naked, where did he get the keys?
> 
> Not that I care, just explaining it to you.


Well, I don't know. All I know is that as I was closing my (house) front door, he was driving off. Maybe he left his keys in the ignition, maybe he has a spare key stored in a magnetic case under the wheel well (as I do). I don't know. WTF does it have to do with my situation?


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## 12345Person

WalterWhite420 said:


> Well, I don't know. All I know is that as I was closing my (house) front door, he was driving off. Maybe he left his keys in the ignition, maybe he has a spare key stored in a magnetic case under the wheel well (as I do). I don't know. WTF does it have to do with my situation?


He's just wanting to make sure your story is real.


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## MattMatt

WalterWhite420 said:


> Well, I don't know. All I know is that as I was closing my (house) front door, he was driving off. Maybe he left his keys in the ignition, maybe he has a spare key stored in a magnetic case under the wheel well (as I do). I don't know. WTF does it have to do with my situation?


Now, why would a chap leave his keys in the ignition? :scratchhead: I mean, that's sort of a high risk activity, right?

My take on that is that your wife is not the first colleague he has had carnal congress with and that he leaves the key in the ignition in case he needs to make a quick getaway.

If so, he needs to be reported to the company human resources/personnel department ASAP.


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## Better Days

Where I live some people still leave their car keys in the ignition along with not locking their homes. I don't but this could happen and I wouldn't be doubting the man...he has enough troubles the way it sounds and were here to help him!


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## TrustIsGone

Maybe the man kept a key in his car, in case he had to run out of OP's house, should he come home early and find this man on top of his wife??


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## arbitrator

*Now if you were residing in Texas and you walked in and found that he was doing that to your wife, as long as he didn't leave the threshold of the dwelling itself, you could have pretty well had carte blanche with him!

But trust me! your W is no better than him! Get yourself a good divorce lawyer and give her the air. And contact that POSOM's and W's company's Human Resources Dept. and fill them in on your W's and POSOM's newfound hobby! And get photos of them and submit them to Cheaterville!*


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## BashfulB

I got arrested when I beat up my ex's OM. Spent a few hours in booking. 

Tell you what though: it felt good. It was worth the fine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BashfulB

MattMatt said:


> Now, why would a chap leave his keys in the ignition? :scratchhead: I mean, that's sort of a high risk activity, right?
> 
> My take on that is that your wife is not the first colleague he has had carnal congress with and that he leaves the key in the ignition in case he needs to make a quick getaway.
> 
> If so, he needs to be reported to the company human resources/personnel department ASAP.


Disregard what you hear about America Matt. Not all US towns are crime ridden. There are still towns and neighborhoods where people leave their cars unlocked and in some places they don't even lock the front doors at night. The little town I live in is like that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## arbitrator

BashfulBull said:


> Disregard what you hear about America Matt. Not all US towns are crime ridden. There are still towns and neighborhoods where people leave their cars unlocked and in some places they don't even lock the front doors at night. The little town I live in is like that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*Hell, a lot of folk's that I know will place their car keys either up underneath the front car seat, or up under the car mat, as they're either too damned lazy, or perhaps just strategic enough to not lock the vehicle up, when perhaps being in need of making a hastily planned exit!

In any event, if he was buck-ass naked when you threw his sorry ass out of your house, wouldn't it be fair to say that he probably would have left behind pertinent items like his jacket, trousers, belt, shirt, skivvies, socks, and shoes, right there at the house for your personal disposal, along with a pocketed car key-ring and a nice wallet full of ID's, credit cards, and cash? And even perhaps a cell phone, with lots of phone numbers in it, to boot?

But if for some reason that he didn't, then he must have undoubtedly shown up on the front door threshold, sans clothing, with only a big smile and an erection, greatly primed for a little action with some strange , and doing his best rendition of, say, a Singer Single-Headed "Sewing Machine!"*


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## bartendersfriend

I think we need to hear what has happened in the past several months to be able to provide advice. But, I am sorry you are here and have struggled with whether or not to post your story. There are a lot of great people here to help you. I agree that a WS bringing their AP to their own home is low. That would be tough to get over and especially seeing it.


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## MattMatt

BashfulBull said:


> Disregard what you hear about America Matt. Not all US towns are crime ridden. There are still towns and neighborhoods where people leave their cars unlocked and in some places they don't even lock the front doors at night. The little town I live in is like that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Same thing in the UK. But in our town? An unlocked car would be gone pretty quickly!


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## arbitrator

MattMatt said:


> Same thing in the UK. But in our town? An unlocked car would be gone pretty quickly!


*I know that it would, in a berg like Houston, where most criminals are saavy enough to know how to quickly hot-wire the thing, more especially if it had some monetary value to it!
*


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## maincourse99

Troll.


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## arbitrator

maincourse99 said:


> Troll.


*I'm starting to think. If not, I'd be forced to say that he's got an awful lot of questions to offer thoughtful and logical refutation to!
*


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## 6301

maincourse99 said:


> Troll.


 We'll soon find out. If it isn't here tomorrow then we will know.


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## Overthemoon88

MattMatt said:


> Same thing in the UK. But in our town? An unlocked car would be gone pretty quickly!



Ummmm ... Liverpool ?? Newcastle ???


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## GROUNDPOUNDER

WOW! This one barely made out from under the bridge and wham! 

Nice catch Philat.


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## kristin2349

WalterWhite420 said:


> Don't know man. ???


Perhaps the 420 end of your user name (a fictitious meth cook paired with a notorious weed holiday) hmm, no problem with recreational smoke but some strains make me mellow, some hazy.

But in regards to your story. Wow, I hope the violence made you feel better. Should have tossed the slvt soul mate out with him.

Good luck in IC. Maybe some anger management is called for.


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## workindad

Somehow I think this thread will get deleted.


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## lordmayhem

Update?


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## kristin2349

TrustIsGone said:


> Maybe the man kept a key in his car, in case he had to run out of OP's house, should he come home early and find this man on top of his wife??



People still have keys? I have a push button and a fob that is in my bag. I haven't had a regular key in years. With physical injuries to attend to he obviously drove away. Hmm presents a problem arriving at the hospital. And no police involved? Well he was quite prepared and took his beating like a man! 

OP says he does not know but clothes, cell and wallet with keys would have been on the side of the bed the floor. If he's a neat freak the chair. So OP not knowing is a bit odd.

You only threw half the "trash" out in your post OP toss the wife on your mattress cause that's the ultimate FU on her part.

Good luck in IC


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## 12345Person

Yeah, I'm not buying this story.

If I'm wrong, post an update.


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## BashfulB

kristin2349 said:


> Perhaps the 420 end of your user name (a fictitious meth cook paired with a notorious weed holiday) hmm, no problem with recreational smoke but some strains make me mellow, some hazy.
> 
> But in regards to your story. Wow, I hope the violence made you feel better. Should have tossed the slvt soul mate out with him.
> 
> Good luck in IC. *Maybe some anger management is called for*.


I'm the most peace loving gentle bear you will ever meet, and I beat my xWW's OM to a pulp. 

I managed my anger quite well that night. I focused it and laid him out. He was a lowdown POS drug dealer/addict/ex-con. It felt good and I won't apologize for it.


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## BashfulB

Lets give the guy the benefit of the doubt.

If the author is a pimple faced teen whacking away in his parents basement just trying to get a rise out of people, we'll know soon enough.


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## kristin2349

BashfulBull said:


> I'm the most peace loving gentle bear you will ever meet, and I beat my xWW's OM to a pulp.
> 
> I managed my anger quite well that night. I focused it and laid him out. He was a lowdown POS drug dealer/addict/ex-con. It felt good and I won't apologize for it.


I get that I'm a woman and I have had that urge. I deal with that urge with sarcasm. If I were a guy maybe I'd go that route. 

If I was ridding my home of trash I wouldn't stop with the guy. The soul mate with no soul would be tossed out as well. 

I didn't say he should apologize. But he's in IC and working it out. So cover it all, just my input.


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## BashfulB

kristin2349 said:


> I get that I'm a woman and I have had that urge. I deal with that urge with sarcasm. If I were a guy maybe I'd go that route.
> 
> If I was ridding my home of trash I wouldn't stop with the guy. The soul mate with no soul would be tossed out as well.
> 
> I didn't say he should apologize. But he's in IC and working it out. So cover it all, just my input.


I hate violence. I was a Marine and I was taught to kill, but I hate that there is war, and I hate how cruel people can be towards one another.

But sometimes....sometimes... a person needs to be taught a harsh lesson. Sometimes a person should pay a steep price for the bad things they do. My xWW's OM was a bad person, and he deserved to face a consequence for doing something bad.


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## davecarter

WalterWhite420 said:


> 1 - I thought nothing of it and went inside, and heard strange sounds coming from our bedroom. I entered our bedroom and saw a horrible sight; a strange man on top of my wife, with her legs WRAPPED AROUND HIM, and him going to town like a Singer sewing machine...and her moaning in pleasure.
> 
> 2 - I'm a somewhat big/strong man, and I pulled him off her and beat the living **** out of him. I carried him outside (he was still naked) and dumped him in the street.


1 - :rofl:

2 - :rofl:


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## Rottdad42

So where did the OP go. I'm stuck on naked and he drove away. I secure everything when I leave my rig, I can say with extreme certainty I don't have a key taped to a cheek.


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## MattMatt

Abd still some folks can't find the report button!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kristin2349

MattMatt said:


> Abd still some folks can't find the report button!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



MattMatt you need to make that your signature


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## arbitrator

*Let's just say that I would also be in fast agreement that the W's sorry ass needed to be tossed right out into the street along with her OM.

And as a committed, but spurned spouse, I certainly wouldn't want her nasty "love receptacle" lounging around in "our home," with "his seed" laying up in there! She could go cool that cooter of hers off somewhere else! Just saying!*


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## kristin2349

arbitrator said:


> *Let's just say that I would also be in fast agreement that the W's sorry ass needed to be tossed right out into the street along with her OM.
> 
> And as a committed, but spurned spouse, I certainly wouldn't want her nasty "love receptacle" lounging around in "our home," with "his seed" laying up in there! She could go cool that cooter of hers off somewhere else! Just saying!*


Exactly, I'd literally burn the bed. And she'd get tossed out as well. 

Did he deserve the beat down , sure. Tossed out naked yep. I'm fine with that.

But the slvt mate because she is a woman shouldn't be dealt with violence. She should still be dealt with. She invited him to their marital home, the marital bed and all the rest that is so vile I couldn't get past that. The only thing funnier than one naked driver is a naked passenger a sunny hot day and black leather seats


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## 10th Engineer Harrison

I think White borrowed this story from a couple other forums. Parts are very similar 2 a couple different stories.

Or perhaps a penthouse letter.

-ol' 2long


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## WalterWhite420

bartendersfriend said:


> I think we need to hear what has happened in the past several months to be able to provide advice. But, I am sorry you are here and have struggled with whether or not to post your story. There are a lot of great people here to help you. I agree that a WS bringing their AP to their own home is low. That would be tough to get over and especially seeing it.


The months prior to my discovery seemed somewhat normal, but in hindsight they were anything but.

She began working "overtime" 2 days per week. She sometimes got dolled up to go to the "grocery store". She began a Facebook account, and spent a lot of hours on the computer. Our sex life dwindled, but was still great when we had sex. She always was a (good) beast in bed. Both of us are somewhat "over-sexed", so when we went from having sex 4-5 times per week to only once or twice per week, it seemed strange. She claimed the change was because she was working "overtime", and was "under a lot of pressure at work". I'll say.

The day I came home and found them, I was supposed to be giving a major presentation at a large conference of potential new customers, and was supposed to be wining and dining several of them after work. I wasn't supposed to be home that evening until at least 10:00 PM. However, the chartered flight that was supposed to bring many of the attendees to town had problems early that morning and had to make an emergency landing still far away from my business location. So the conference was rescheduled for the next day. I got a bit queezy after lunch, and decided to go home and rest up for the next day.

More later, as I can.


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## arbitrator

kristin2349 said:


> Exactly, I'd literally burn the bed. And she'd get tossed out as well.
> 
> Did he deserve the beat down , sure. Tossed out naked yep. I'm fine with that.
> 
> But the slvt mate because she is a woman shouldn't be dealt with violence. She should still be dealt with. She invited him to their marital home, the marital bed and all the rest that is so vile I couldn't get past that. The only thing funnier than one naked driver is a naked passenger a sunny hot day and black leather seats


*Heck, Sweetheart! I could live with tossing both of their naked asses out, say into the freezing cold in about 2 feet of snow with a howling gale. 

Now that would absolutely make his poor ol' "Johnson" shrink down to roughly about the size of hers!*


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## BashfulB

Even if OP is one of our furry bretheren from under a bridge, it does spark lively discussion of "what if".

If I found my wife in bed getting plowed by a guy... I would probably lose it. No way he would be getting out of that house without some serious bloodletting. 

The wife would be gone, out, and locks would be changed.


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## WalterWhite420

2long said:


> I think White borrowed this story from a couple other forums. Parts are very similar 2 a couple different stories.
> 
> Or perhaps a penthouse letter.
> 
> -ol' 2long


Well, I don't know what to say. My IC suggested this web site as a good way to move towards healing. But it seems several of you think I may be a troll.

My intent is not to trick anyone. I wasn't even wanting to do this in the first place. But my IC all but insisted...


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## 12345Person

Then tell us the story. One would think the reason you're taking this long to tell it is to make sure you don't blunder the details.

You could just write your story down on a notepad and then copy/paste it on here, but you're just dragging things along.


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## arbitrator

*Bull: In Texas, you could pretty much do the guy in if you walked in on him in the act of plowing your wife within the sanctity of your own personal domicile! And conversely, a wife could do the very same thing if her old man was caught by her in a similar circumstances!*


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## aug

WalterWhite420 said:


> Well, I don't know what to say. My IC suggested this web site as a good way to move towards healing. But it seems several of you think I may be a troll.
> 
> My intent is not to trick anyone. I wasn't even wanting to do this in the first place. But my IC all but insisted...




I, for one, am interested in what you have to say. Please carry on.



Do you remember what type of car the OM was driving?


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## arbitrator

WalterWhite420 said:


> Well, I don't know what to say. My IC suggested this web site as a good way to move towards healing. But it seems several of you think I may be a troll.
> 
> My intent is not to trick anyone. I wasn't even wanting to do this in the first place. But my IC all but insisted...


*Walt: I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but please rest assured that there are some "holes" that need to be filled in your story, other than your W's. I totally agree with your IC that your writing it down is more than therapeutic, and I support both of you in your doing that. But I would advise that you write the entire episode in one sitting rather than by doing it piecemeal.

We TAM'ers will be more than happy to help you out, but in doing so, we need to have the absolute truth. 

I, for one, look forward to your completed story!*


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## WalterWhite420

Anonymous Person said:


> Then tell us the story. One would think the reason you're taking this long to tell it is to make sure you don't blunder the details.
> 
> You could just write your story down on a notepad and then copy/paste it on here, but you're just dragging things along.


OK, the rest of the story:

Our families are somewhat unique in that there are multiple friendships that cross over family boundaries. Her brother is my best friend. My cousins are her best friends. Her parents and my parents visit several times per year. Thanksgiving and Christmas bring on huge and very fun gatherings of our families. Or at least they did.

So after I "discovered" her affair, I had some gut-wrenching decisions to make. For all I could tell, she was GENUINELY sorry and determined to right all her wrongs, as much as possible. She was willing to eat dirt, drink slime, you name it, to show me how much she regretted the affair and truly wanted R. But she also requested (strongly) that I not tell anyone about her A. That did not sit well with me.

The truth is I'm not the "forgive and forget" kind of person. I'm just not. Some people are (and they have my admiration), but I'm just not. Even so, I agreed to MC and an attempt at R. I invested 3 months of time into R, and did not tell anyone of her A. But reality soon set in, and I faced the cold hard truth that I could NEVER forgive her, or take her back.

I made her leave our house, and wrote a comprehensive letter that described her affair in every detail I knew, and sent it to every member of our family, as well as to her and her AP and his wife. As it turned out, he lost his job because of it, because he had just taken a new job that required a very high-level security clearance. And adultery (as well as anything worthy of blackmail) can and will cause denial of security clearances.

So this has not just rocked our world (my wife and I), but it rocked our respective family's world as well. Best-friendships were shattered. Thanksgiving and Christmas were ruined this year for everyone. Half blame her, and half blame me. My best friend (her brother) is now my former friend (his choice for me "defaming" his sister).

I filed for divorce, which is still pending. She is still begging me to R, but I don't ever return her calls or texts. I'm better than that. I have more self-respect than to think I have to settle for her. And I won't. But it does still hurt so much, because I loved her so much. Damn, she's still in my heart. But I'm getting rid of her more every day.

I'm only 45 years old. I still have time to find a true soul mate. In the mean time, it sure feels good rejecting her and hearing her cry and beg when she leaves me voice messages. I want her to feel the hell I've felt for along time now. I NEED her to feel it.

But my goal is to reach the point where I don't care anymore. Where I don't even think about her.

I'm not ready to date just yet. I'll wait till our divorce is finalized. I wouldn't want to ask any respectable woman to date me while I'm still technically married.

Thanks for listening. Maybe this will help me heal further. She's called my cell phone 4 times today, and sent me text messages and emails. She's really desperate. And I'm loving it. As bad as that may sound, I'm loving it. Because I really do believe she's sincere. She's almost as tortured inside as I am. And that makes me happy.


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## MovingAhead

Time time time time time.... If you made your decision, it will just take time and the focus on things that are not her.


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## WalterWhite420

MovingAhead said:


> Time time time time time.... If you made your decision, it will just take time and the focus on things that are not her.


Thanks. I've made the decision, and I will not back down. Although I'm still devastated, I feel more free every day. The hell with her.

I lost my wife, and many friends, because of her choice to have an affair. I can't change that. All I can do is move forward, and I take great inspiration from the many members here who've been through what I'm going through.

Thanks to all here. I appreciate your support.


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## aug

WalterWhite420 said:


> Thanks for listening. Maybe this will help me heal further. She's called my cell phone 4 times today, and sent me text messages and emails. *She's really desperate. And I'm loving it. As bad as that may sound, I'm loving it. Because I really do believe she's sincere. She's almost as tortured inside as I am. * And that makes me happy.



Realize this: she screwed her lover for a year or more. She would had continued to screwed him for God knows how long if she had not been caught. There was no remorse on her part when she actively allowed the OM to romance her and then to fvck her in your own home and bed.

You changed her circumstances on her. She does not like where she is now - in her mid 40's, reputation shot, and having to rebuild her life.

You're 45 y.o. Your options are better and more numerous than hers. You may want to start a family with a new woman; she doesnt have that choice now that she's past her biological prime.

She made her decision when she allowed the affair. That's her choice in life. Let her live her consequences. She set you free. Let her go. Go live.


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## WalterWhite420

aug said:


> I, for one, am interested in what you have to say. Please carry on.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you remember what type of car the OM was driving?


It was a 4-door sedan, but I didn't recognize the make.


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## 12345Person

WalterWhite420 said:


> The truth is I'm not the "forgive and forget" kind of person. I'm just not. Some people are (and they have my admiration), but I'm just not. Even so, I agreed to MC and an attempt at R. I invested 3 months of time into R, and did not tell anyone of her A. But reality soon set in, and I faced the cold hard truth that I could NEVER forgive her, or take her back.


I know how that feels. You look at yourself, you look at your situation, and go "wtf am I doing?!"

You couldn't force the lie.



WalterWhite420 said:


> I filed for divorce, which is still pending. She is still begging me to R, but I don't ever return her calls or texts. I'm better than that. I have more self-respect than to think I have to settle for her. And I won't. But it does still hurt so much, because I loved her so much. Damn, she's still in my heart. But I'm getting rid of her more every day.
> 
> I'm only 45 years old. I still have time to find a true soul mate. In the mean time, it sure feels good rejecting her and hearing her cry and beg when she leaves me voice messages. I want her to feel the hell I've felt for along time now. I NEED her to feel it.


I don't know how you think, so perhaps you might give her another chance, or perhaps you'll move on to someone else. Whatever decision you make, let it be one that leads to your own happiness. 



WalterWhite420 said:


> Thanks for listening. Maybe this will help me heal further. She's called my cell phone 4 times today, and sent me text messages and emails. She's really desperate. And I'm loving it. As bad as that may sound, I'm loving it. Because I really do believe she's sincere. She's almost as tortured inside as I am. And that makes me happy.


Have you spoken to your counselor about this?


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## 12345Person

aug said:


> Realize this: she screwed her lover for a year or more. She would had continued to screwed him for God knows how long if she had not been caught. There was no remorse on her part when she actively allowed the OM to romance her and then to fvck her in your own home and bed.
> 
> You changed her circumstances on her. She does not like where she is now - in her mid 40's, reputation shot, and having to rebuild her life.
> 
> You're 45 y.o. Your options are better and more numerous than hers. You may want to start a family with a new woman; she doesnt have that choice now that she's past her biological prime.
> 
> She made her decision when she allowed the affair. That's her choice in life. Let her live her consequences. She set you free. Let her go. Go live.


I like what aug said.

If you hadn't caught her, then how long would you have been cuckolded?

Run for the hills? That's what I would do, but I'm not you.

EDIT:

Starting a new family? Sounds hella fun.


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## WalterWhite420

aug said:


> Realize this: she screwed her lover for a year or more. She would had continued to screwed him for God knows how long if she had not been caught. There was no remorse on her part when she actively allowed the OM to romance her and then to fvck her in your own home and bed.
> 
> You changed her circumstances on her. She does not like where she is now - in her mid 40's, reputation shot, and having to rebuild her life.
> 
> You're 45 y.o. Your options are better and more numerous than hers. You may want to start a family with a new woman; she doesnt have that choice now that she's past her biological prime.
> 
> She made her decision when she allowed the affair. That's her choice in life. Let her live her consequences. She set you free. Let her go. Go live.


Thank you aug. You are so right. I appreciate your support. I'm still hurting, but I can see light at the end of the tunnel. And for a long time all I saw ahead was darkness.

Again, thanks.


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## WalterWhite420

Anonymous Person said:


> I know how that feels. You look at yourself, you look at your situation, and go "wtf am I doing?!"
> 
> You couldn't force the lie.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know how you think, so perhaps you might give her another chance, or perhaps you'll move on to someone else. Whatever decision you make, let it be one that leads to your own happiness.
> 
> 
> 
> Have you spoken to your counselor about this?


Yes, I'm totally honest with my IC. And he thinks this might indicate that deep inside, I really want to R with her. But I don't think so. I think I'm just the kind of person who wants to hit back when someone hits me.


----------



## 12345Person

WalterWhite420 said:


> Yes, I'm totally honest with my IC. And he thinks this might indicate that deep inside, I really want to R with her. But I don't think so. I think I'm just the kind of person who wants to hit back when someone hits me.


It actually does sound like you want to get back with her.

However, how long would she have done it? How do you know this is the first? 

Keep in mind that you're young enough to build a new family. Sounds exciting, so know that you have millions of options are your disposal.


----------



## WalterWhite420

Anonymous Person said:


> It actually does sound like you want to get back with her.
> 
> However, how long would she have done it? How do you know this is the first?
> 
> Keep in mind that you're young enough to build a new family. Sounds exciting, so know that you have millions of options are your disposal.


I acquiesce that I may, deep in my repressed mind, have some sort of desire to R with her. Hell, the best years of my life were spent with her. But in my conscious mind, I know that I never could truly R. So I choose to hold out until my repressed mind gets over her. Mind over matter. Hopefully sooner than later. Eventually it will come. Or at least I hope so.


----------



## verpin zal

Ask her what she would keep doing had she not been caught.

In the act, no less.

She wants to R? Now?

Of course.


----------



## aug

WalterWhite420 said:


> Thanks for listening. Maybe this will help me heal further. * She's called my cell phone 4 times today, and sent me text messages and emails. She's really desperate. * And I'm loving it. As bad as that may sound, I'm loving it. Because I really do believe she's sincere. She's almost as tortured inside as I am. And that makes me happy.


Does she still have her job? 

I take it you two are not living in the same house right now, yes?

How often does she call, text or email you? Everyday still?

And I dont understand her desperation. She has her own job (right?), she has her own life. I would think she can find another lover easily, if she's half decent looking.

Why do you think she's desperate?


----------



## WalterWhite420

verpin zal said:


> Ask her what she would keep doing had she not been caught.
> 
> In the act, no less.
> 
> She wants to R? Now?
> 
> Of course.


I think if she had not been caught, she would still be doing him today. Which strengthens my resolve to refuse her pleadings to R.


----------



## WalterWhite420

aug said:


> Does she still have her job?
> 
> I take it you two are not living in the same house right now, yes?
> 
> How often does she call, text or email you? Everyday still?
> 
> And I dont understand her desperation. She has her own job (right?), she has her own life. I would think she can find another lover easily, if she's half decent looking.
> 
> Why do you think she's desperate?


We're living apart.

She calls, texts, and emails almost daily. As much as many of you may doubt, I think she is truly remorseful and wants to restore our once blissful life together. It was once truly great for both of us, and our families.

She does have her own job, and can provide for herself (she will need to, I can assure you). But she has alienated half of her family, and is in the unfamiliar position of being the "bad person" to many of her family members. So she is squirming. She has always prided herself on her great relationships within her family, and many of those relationships are destroyed now.


----------



## Clay2013

I am really sorry to hear this happened to you. It sounds like your living in hell. I am glad to hear you do have people around you that support you. You are going to need it. 

I do think things here people are telling you are right. She did this behind your back and had no issue with it until she was caught. If you look on this site you will see there are some people that cheated on there mates and told them right away and felt genuine remorse. Your wife is not showing you that. She is only showing you now she wants her home back and her life back. This alone is the clearest sign of why you should not get back together with her. Had she came to you and told you out of guilt I could understand that. 

My xW cheated on me multiple times and honestly I am a idiot for staying with her as long as I had. I do admire than you kicked her right out. I did that the last time she cheated on me and while I felt great for it I still felt horrible for all the other times I just fell for her pleads. 

You are actually at a very good age to find another woman that will show you the love you deserve. Sure it will take some time but You would be surprised how many decent women have been through things like this and they are looking for a good man to settle down with and have a good life. 

Do you think she would have stayed with you if she found you in bed with another woman? I think that is the question I would ask. 

Thank you for sharing your story.

Clay


----------



## WalterWhite420

Clay2013 said:


> I am really sorry to hear this happened to you. It sounds like your living in hell. I am glad to hear you do have people around you that support you. You are going to need it.
> 
> I do think things here people are telling you are right. She did this behind your back and had no issue with it until she was caught. If you look on this site you will see there are some people that cheated on there mates and told them right away and felt genuine remorse. Your wife is not showing you that. She is only showing you now she wants her home back and her life back. This alone is the clearest sign of why you should not get back together with her. Had she came to you and told you out of guilt I could understand that.
> 
> My xW cheated on me multiple times and honestly I am a idiot for staying with her as long as I had. I do admire than you kicked her right out. I did that the last time she cheated on me and while I felt great for it I still felt horrible for all the other times I just fell for her pleads.
> 
> You are actually at a very good age to find another woman that will show you the love you deserve. Sure it will take some time but You would be surprised how many decent women have been through things like this and they are looking for a good man to settle down with and have a good life.
> 
> Do you think she would have stayed with you if she found you in bed with another woman? I think that is the question I would ask.
> 
> Thank you for sharing your story.
> 
> Clay


Clay,

This is one of the most helpful, soulful, worthwhile, heart-felt replies I've received...thank you...and thank everyone here for your support...


----------



## arbitrator

arbitrator said:


> *Hell, a lot of folk's that I know will place their car keys either up underneath the front car seat, or up under the car mat, as they're either too damned lazy, or perhaps just strategic enough to not lock the vehicle up, when perhaps being in need of making a hastily planned exit!
> 
> In any event, if he was buck-ass naked when you threw his sorry ass out of your house, wouldn't it be fair to say that he probably would have left behind pertinent items like his jacket, trousers, belt, shirt, skivvies, socks, and shoes, right there at the house for your personal disposal, along with a pocketed car key-ring and a nice wallet full of ID's, credit cards, and cash? And even perhaps a cell phone, with lots of phone numbers in it, to boot?
> 
> But if for some reason that he didn't, then he must have undoubtedly shown up on the front door threshold, sans clothing, with only a big smile and an erection, greatly primed for a little action with some strange, and doing his best rendition of, say, a Singer Single-Headed "Sewing Machine!"*


*Walter: I think that I, along with a lot of other TAM'ers here, would like to know about this question that I originally queried.

You, no doubt, had to have found the OM's clothing/personal items there in the bedroom from where you expedited his hasty exit. Please expound!*


----------



## WalterWhite420

arbitrator said:


> *Walter: I think that I, along with a lot of other TAM'ers here, would like to know about this question that I originally queried.
> 
> You, no doubt, had to have found the OM's clothing/personal items there in the bedroom from where you expedited his hasty exit. Please expound!*


Well, sir, yes...there were certain personal items left behind...clothes, shoes, belt, and wallet...all of which I burned in the fireplace...I didn't even look to see if money was in the wallet...I just burned it...


----------



## bandit.45

Do you live in an alimony state? Will you have to end up spending the rest of your life paying her for the privelege of having cheated on you?

I agree with the others: she's not sorry for cheating. She is sorry she got caught.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WalterWhite420

bandit.45 said:


> Do you live in an alimony state? Will you have to end up spending the rest of your life paying her for the privelege of having cheated on you?
> 
> I agree with the others: she's not sorry for cheating. She is sorry she got caught.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, I agree...she was only remorseful for getting caught...

LUCKILY, I have a prenup...which prevents her (or me) from ever getting more than 50%...AND SHE HAS PROVIDED AT LEAST 50%...over the past few years...


----------



## arbitrator

WalterWhite420 said:


> Well, sir, yes...there were certain personal items left behind...clothes, shoes, belt, and wallet...all of which I burned in the fireplace...I didn't even look to see if money was in the wallet...I just burned it...


*Had I been in your shoes, and with my probable vindictive nature, I would have used any of those items of his to evoke some form of leverage on his sorry ass, whether it was to inform his W, his HR Dept at work, et. al.! Just saying! Thanks for clarifying, and am greatly sorry for what you're going through!

Keep this in court and gain your independence. You deserve far better!*


----------



## bandit.45

At least? If she makes more, she may have to pay you. Some courts ignore prenups.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WalterWhite420

arbitrator said:


> *Had I been in your shoes, and with my probable vindictive nature, I would have used any of those items of his to evoke some form of leverage on his sorry ass, whether it was to inform his W, his HR Dept at work, et. al.! Just saying! Thanks for clarifying, and am greatly sorry for what you're going through!
> 
> Keep this in court and gain your independence. You deserve far better!*


Thank you sir.

After reading many of your helpful posts, I appreciate your support...honestly.


----------



## arbitrator

bandit.45 said:


> At least? If she makes more, she may have to pay you. * Some courts ignore prenups.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*Damn, Bandito! I only wish that my Court would have ignored my rich, skanky XW's prenup!*


----------



## bandit.45

arbitrator said:


> *Damn, Bandito! I only wish that my Court would have ignored my rich, skanky XW's!*


Well you at least got some wisdom out of the deal Arb. You won't sign your soul over to the Devil again will you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## arbitrator

bandit.45 said:


> Well you at least got some wisdom out of the deal Arb. You won't sign your soul over to the Devil again will you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*Verily! Hallelujah! Amen, Brother! ~ That word no longer exists in my dictionary! If I ever get weak minded enough to marry again, and my betrothed trots one of those over for me to sign, I'll be running westward on foot toward the sun. Only to stop off in Arizona for you to hand me a nice cold beer!*


----------



## bandit.45

arbitrator said:


> *Verily! Hallelujah! Amen, Brother! ~ That word no longer exists in my dictionary! If I ever get weak minded enough to marry again, and my betrothed trots one of those over for me to sign, I'll be running westward on foot toward the sun. Only to stop off in Arizona for you to hand me a nice cold beer!*


No no no! We already have too damn many Texans here! Of course you brush poppers aren't as bad as Wisconsinites.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

Just teasing Arb. You come hang with me anytime!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## arbitrator

bandit.45 said:


> No no no! We already have too damn many Texans here! Of course you brush poppers aren't as bad as Wisconsinites.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*Didn't want to move there, Bro! Besides those Snowbirds, you've got more rattlesnakes there than we do, and that's inclusive of my skanky XW! 

I'd just want to stop long enough to either drink a nice cold Coors, or a BlackJack-n-Coke, before proceeding westward to New Zealand!*


----------



## bandit.45

You drink Arb. I'll watch you. Bandito cannot imbibe.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantePe

Better Days said:


> Where I live some people still leave their car keys in the ignition along with not locking their homes. I don't but this could happen and I wouldn't be doubting the man...he has enough troubles the way it sounds and were here to help him!


I live in a small town up north where this is common. Hell I leave my keys in my vehicle in the garage, right in the ignition. Then again my garage doors have auto door openers and locking mechanisms but around here. Auto theft doesn't really happen often.


----------



## seeking sanity

so, what might be helpful to you is to have a plan for going forward. You've made a decision and you seem okay with it, but realistic about the hardship you are up against. Regardless of whether you split or reconciled, you're up against hardship, so that would not have changed anyway.

A good plan involves: exploring Hobbies/Interests, exercise, male companionship, doing things "for you", and taking this as an opportunity to remake your life how you want it to be.

Do you have interests, friends, a social outlet and do you regularly exercise? Those will all help.


----------



## manticore

kristin2349 said:


> Hmm presents a problem arriving at the hospital. And no police involved? Well he was quite prepared and took his beating like a man!


Is not that uncommon, We have many users that had beat their OM without further problem than the police taking them some hours to the station and sometimes not even that.

Bashfulbull
Oldsmitten
Kasler

take in cosideration that OMs many times fear the public attention and many of them are between their mid 30's and late 40's when reputation is very important for social activies and Jobs, so raising attention about adultery over them is not always a good idea, the cases where I have seen OMs raising charges are almost always young adults in their early 20's and even those restrain themselves sometimes for not wanting be saw as pussies that got their asses kicket and then went to the police to wine.


----------



## manticore

WalterWhite420 

sorry about the troll hunt, but we have had so many lately that we can not help but to be with the guard on.

first of all, I am sorry that you have the need to be here, I think your therapist is right many users find therapeutic to be here, not just to tell their story about the what happened regarding their infidelity situation, but also to have the freedom to liberate thoughts, feelings, rants, vents without the fear to be criticized or pressured for not healing "fast enough", your thread is also your journal to talk about your healing process (regardless the path you took, reconcilation or divorce), as how are you doing with the divorce process, hanging with friends, meeting chicks etc.

Hope you find this place a good coping mechanism for you.


----------



## manticore

Also, I advice you to read this 2 threads:

Oldmittens
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/private-members-section/36022-not-sure-what-do.html

Badblood
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/33850-why-should-i.html

Both have similar circumstances to yours, both in their 40's, both in great marriages, families were very close, both in marriages of more than 15 years, and for some stupid reason their XWs decided that have a Little extra thrill with other men would do no harm at all, both were crushed because they could not understand their wives decission to cheat when the had such a good relationship (and sex life), both tried reconcilation for the love they had towards their wives, and both realized that reconcilation was not for them.

Oldmittens coping, healing and recuperation is specially good example for others (BTW his first thread is in marriage builders months before he arrived here), it should be a guide for every guy who feels dawn about his situation on how life goes on and you can do much better after such and horrible betrayal knowing that there is light at the end of the tunnel.


BTW he also broke his OM's nose and jab without consequences


----------



## BobSimmons

Philat said:


> _ I carried him outside (he was still naked) and dumped him in the street. He got in his car and drove away._
> 
> Was he carrying his keys up his a$$?


dead:rofl:


----------



## BobSimmons

WalterWhite420 said:


> I think if *she had not been caught, she would still be doing him today*. Which strengthens my resolve to refuse her pleadings to R.


This. This and This!

You saw what you saw with your own eyes and this went on for a year. The fact they were screwing in your house shows the comfort level as well as the level of intimacy they had built up.

No I don't really think she's tortured at all. She may be sorry but only that she got caught.

You'll never unsee what you saw or heard. Well done for what you did moving forward. As much as it hurts you did the right thing. Cliche alert, there are much more loyal loving women out there. Don't compromise your values by getting back with your STBX.


----------



## Rottdad42

WW420, you need to realize for use folks here, we have heard a lot of crap. Being betrayed, let down, ran over and left to pick up the pieces. It leaves most of us with a cynical view at best. When we hear things like the way you start, we go right to story teller (troll). For the most part we can spot them early, some get by, but not all. If your situation has merit and you are indeed for real, then by all means let it out. Myself I come hear for validation and steam vent. Makes my trigger days better.


----------



## user_zero

WalterWhite,

I think you wanna reconcile with the wife you had, with the wife you knew before being aware of her affair. but the truth is she is not that woman anymore. and I think part of inner conflict of a BS (betrayed spouse) is the acceptance of this truth. In the light of things that happened , I think it would be better for both of you if you just get a divorce.

I didn't read anything in your posts about taking std tests. if you didn't take it yet, it's better that you do. they (wife and OM) were physical with each other possibly for a year. and you two were too. it's better to make sure you are clean and healthy. some of these std(s) doesn't show their symptoms for along time.

Good Luck.


----------



## arbitrator

BobSimmons said:


> This. This and This!
> 
> You saw what you saw with your own eyes and this went on for a year. The fact they were screwing in your house shows the comfort level as well as the level of intimacy they had built up.
> 
> No I don't really think she's tortured at all. She may be sorry but only that she got caught.
> 
> You'll never unsee what you saw or heard. Well done for what you did moving forward. As much as it hurts you did the right thing. Cliche alert, there are much more loyal loving women out there. Don't compromise your values by getting back with your STBX.


*To walk in on and to experience the visualization of something as sordid as that would have undoubtedly left an indelibly marred, etched-in-stone image in a cheated spouse's mind. It would have been something well beyond sickening!

Hindsight being 20/20, had that happened to me and I would have had the natural resolve, along with access to at least a toy gun, I think that I would have held them at bay, right then and there, in that bed and would have calmly called the police and told them that I had a "breaking-and-entering" in progress and for them to dispatch a squad car; but before the unit ever made it there, I'd get some very unpleasant questions answered first, and heard both of their impassioned confessions. 

Just after having taken a few cell phone photos of them!*


----------



## Thorburn

*As it turned out, he lost his job because of it, because he had just taken a new job that required a very high-level security clearance. And adultery (as well as anything worthy of blackmail) can and will cause denial of security clearances.*


This part does not make sense. Though not uncommon, it is rare (IMO) for a person to be fired for adultery and after 40 years in the military, I can say it is not common for a person to have their clearance taken away for this. Especially as you described the events. A person would typically come up for review of their clearance every few years and at this review their adultery "could" be a factor in not renewing their clearance.

Normally when a person is being investigated for a clearance (Like I was), it can be fairly thorough. Especially a TS clearance. This person was exposed by you. In looking at the clearance in regards to the OM, a review would look at coercion, exploitation, or duress, as a basis for revoking a clearance. Frankly, I don't see the events of the OM's actions being a factor in him losing his job and his clearance.

I may be wrong, but this old timer, have seen a few folks with TS clearance commit adultery, without it jeopordizing their clearance. Again, if it was with a Russian, etc, and it was used to extort information from them, of course, but again as you described it, as painful as it was for you, I don't see the OM's actions leading to such a radical outcome.

The one factor that I had to deal with in soldiers not being able to get clearances the most had to do with finances.

The use of the words "can and will cause denial of security clearances", is frankly not true. It may and might cause this but "Can and will", is a little over the top.


----------



## bandit.45

Thorburn said:


> *As it turned out, he lost his job because of it, because he had just taken a new job that required a very high-level security clearance. And adultery (as well as anything worthy of blackmail) can and will cause denial of security clearances.*
> 
> 
> This part does not make sense. Though not uncommon, it is rare (IMO) for a person to be fired for adultery and after 40 years in the military, I can say it is not common for a person to have their clearance taken away for this. Especially as you described the events. A person would typically come up for review of their clearance every few years and at this review their adultery "could" be a factor in not renewing their clearance.
> 
> Normally when a person is being investigated for a clearance (Like I was), it can be fairly thorough. Especially a TS clearance. This person was exposed by you. In looking at the clearance in regards to the OM, a review would look at coercion, exploitation, or duress, as a basis for revoking a clearance. Frankly, I don't see the events of the OM's actions being a factor in him losing his job and his clearance.
> 
> I may be wrong, but this old timer, have seen a few folks with TS clearance commit adultery, without it jeopordizing their clearance. Again, if it was with a Russian, etc, and it was used to extort information from them, of course, but again as you described it, as painful as it was for you, I don't see the OM's actions leading to such a radical outcome.
> 
> The one factor that I had to deal with in soldiers not being able to get clearances the most had to do with finances.


I agree. The guy was most likely fired due to fraternization and violating the company's ethics policy, not because of clearance.


----------



## Thorburn

bandit.45 said:


> I agree. The guy was most likely fired due to fraternization and violating the company's ethics policy, not because of clearance.


And since it was a co-worker that would make more sense.


----------



## bandit.45

Thorburn said:


> And since it was a co-worker that would make more sense.


Some companies (not all, unfortunately) do not tolerate such behavior between coworkers. Such policies should be the norm, not the exception.


----------



## WalterWhite420

user_zero said:


> WalterWhite,
> 
> I think you wanna reconcile with the wife you had, with the wife you knew before being aware of her affair. but the truth is she is not that woman anymore. and I think part of inner conflict of a BS (betrayed spouse) is the acceptance of this truth. In the light of things that happened , I think it would be better for both of you if you just get a divorce.
> 
> I didn't read anything in your posts about taking std tests. if you didn't take it yet, it's better that you do. they (wife and OM) were physical with each other possibly for a year. and you two were too. it's better to make sure you are clean and healthy. some of these std(s) doesn't show their symptoms for along time.
> 
> Good Luck.


We both got tested for STDs. Negative.


----------



## aug

Did the wife get fired too? If not, why not? Why only the OM got fired?


----------



## WalterWhite420

bandit.45 said:


> I agree. The guy was most likely fired due to fraternization and violating the company's ethics policy, not because of clearance.


Maybe. I heard that he ran into trouble getting a clearance.

I have had security clearances in the past (civilian), and heard that any secret activity that could draw blackmail could cause a clearance to be denied. No adultery. No financial problems. If you're gay, they want you out of the closet.


----------



## bandit.45

WalterWhite420 said:


> Maybe. I heard that he ran into trouble getting a clearance.
> 
> I have had security clearances in the past (civilian), and heard that any secret activity that could draw blackmail could cause a clearance to be denied. No adultery. No financial problems. If you're gay, they want you out of the closet.


For a company to say they had to fire a guy for "loss of clearance" is much less scandalous sounding than "he was having sex with a married co-worker". I would wager that he has been called on the carpet previously for sexual harrassment of other women at the company. Your wife was the one woman dumb enough to fall for him and that was the straw that broke the camel's back.


----------



## WalterWhite420

aug said:


> Did the wife get fired too? If not, why not? Why only the OM got fired?


The OM had just left my wife's company, and went to work for a defense contractor in a job that required a clearance. And not just any clearance. It was some sort of clearance at Top Secret level or better. So I heard that all the backlash he got from me sending tell-all information letters around to all our families got him fired. 

He was still within his 90-day probationary period with his new company, and I think companies have a lot of freedom to fire within that period without having to give a specific reason.


----------



## Thorburn

WalterWhite420 said:


> Maybe. *I heard that he ran into trouble getting a clearance.*
> I have had security clearances in the past (civilian), and heard that any secret activity that could draw blackmail could cause a clearance to be denied. No adultery. No financial problems. If you're gay, they want you out of the closet.


This makes more sense. Having an A would seem to low on the reasons for denial. Dui, gang membership, and a host of other issues will lead to denial in most cases.


----------



## WalterWhite420

I just found that my wife is trying to meet in person with every member of our two families. She's apologizing to them in person and trying to get them to convince me that she is serious about R.

She doesn't readily take no for an answer. Never did.


----------



## Thorburn

WalterWhite420 said:


> The OM had just left my wife's company, and went to work for a defense contractor in a job that required a clearance. And not just any clearance. It was some sort of clearance at Top Secret level or better. So I heard that all the backlash he got from me sending tell-all information letters around to all our families got him fired.
> 
> He was still within his 90-day probationary period with his new company, and I think companies have a lot of freedom to fire within that period without having to give a specific reason.


And often time they don't like drama.


----------



## manticore

what was your wife reaction when you were beating the OM and left him bleding on the Street?


----------



## bandit.45

WalterWhite420 said:


> I just found that my wife is trying to meet in person with every member of our two families. She's apologizing to them in person and trying to get them to convince me that she is serious about R.
> 
> She doesn't readily take no for an answer. Never did.


If and when you talk to her, ask her how she plans to help you erase the picture of her and sh!tbag screwing on your marriage bed? Ask her how she could have so little respect for you as to bring another man into your sacred home, into your bedroom that was supposed to be just for you and her. 

Ask her to tell you specifically why she did that. They could have done it on a guest bed, on the living room couch, on the floor... no, they did it on the most sacred, hallowed spot in your home.


----------



## aug

WalterWhite420 said:


> I just found that my wife is trying to meet in person with every member of our two families. She's apologizing to them in person and trying to get them to convince me that she is serious about R.
> 
> *She doesn't readily take no for an answer. Never did.*



Apparently not even the "no" from herself. If she had listen to the no side of herself, she wont be in her current situation.


----------



## manticore

WalterWhite420 said:


> I just found that my wife is trying to meet in person with every member of our two families. She's apologizing to them in person and trying to get them to convince me that she is serious about R.
> 
> She doesn't readily take no for an answer. Never did.


if you don't want R you should speak with the family members she is going to meet and tell them clearly not tho give her false hope, because you are not getting together.

many people try to force themselves to R even when they know cheating is really deal breaker for them, which only leads to resentment and anger and in the end not being able to even have a civil relationship in the future.


----------



## WalterWhite420

manticore said:


> what was your wife reaction when you were beating the OM and left him bleding on the Street?


I was in such a rage I don't remember. The main thing I remember after going back inside was yelling and screaming until I couldn't even talk anymore. And I do remember burning the OMs personal items in the fireplace. 

I've never raised a hand to any woman before. But I was probably close there with my wife. I'm just thankful I was not violent with her.


----------



## WalterWhite420

manticore said:


> if you don't want R you should speak with the family members she is going to meet and tell them clearly not tho give her false hope, because you are not getting together.
> 
> many people try to force themselves to R even when they know cheating is really deal breaker for them, which only leads to resentment and anger and in the end not being able to even have a civil relationship in the future.


Well, I definitely don't want to R. But I am taking a bit of solace from her begging and pleading. She's ruined her life. And she knows it.

But I still love her, I know. And I have to deal with that. But I know I can hold out long enough that my love for her will die.

After I'm officially divorced, I will begin casual dating and I imagine that will help me further. But it will be a while before I want to enter a relationship with anyone.


----------



## manticore

WalterWhite420 said:


> I was in such a rage I don't remember. The main thing I remember after going back inside was yelling and screaming until I couldn't even talk anymore. And I do remember burning the OMs personal items in the fireplace.
> 
> I've never raised a hand to any woman before. But I was probably close there with my wife. I'm just thankful I was not violent with her.


my question was more directed to know if she tried to defend him or help him, puting him over you, that in the end it does not matter if infidelity is your deal breaker whetever she become a saint or keep being a B*tch after DD.

but I was curios becuase wanted to realete the info to see if her currect actions are real remorse of manipulation


----------



## manticore

WalterWhite420 said:


> Well, I definitely don't want to R. But I am taking a bit of solace from her begging and pleading. She's ruined her life. And she knows it.
> 
> But I still love her, I know. And I have to deal with that. But I know I can hold out long enough that my love for her will die.


that is also why I linked badblood's and Oldsmitten's thread to your thread, did you had time to read them? they were also really in love with their wives but realized cheating was deal breaker, in the end bot moved on and are happy now with new partners, it took them almost two years but they are now in a better place.

ligth at the end of the tunnel my friend


----------



## MrK

WalterWhite420 said:


> For all I could tell, she was GENUINELY sorry and determined to right all her wrongs, as much as possible.


How is it possible to go from the throes of passion with your lover one minute to "GENUINELY sorry and determined to right all her wrongs" one second later. I can't buy that. Dump her unless she starts telling you the truth.


----------



## WalterWhite420

manticore said:


> my question was more directed to know if she tried to defend him or help him, puting him over you, that in the end it does not matter if infidelity is your deal breaker whetever she become a saint or keep being a B*tch after DD.
> 
> but I was curios becuase wanted to realete the info to see if her currect actions are real remorse of manipulation


She never tried to blame the OM or me. She owned up to the A 100% as her fault. She gave me the line that is so standard among many of us here. That she was bored, it meant nothing to her, she was vulnerable. But she never tried to hide behind that.

This guy had pursued her for a long time. She said when he made his move on her, she wanted to resist, but also wanted to find out what it would be like. So she found out. And now her life is ruined.

At our last face-to-face meeting, I told her that if I was going to be hurt again, it would be with someone who had never hurt me before. And that ruled her out. She was devastated.


----------



## WalterWhite420

manticore said:


> that is also why I linked badblood's and Oldsmitten's thread to your thread, did you had time to read them? they were also really in love with their wives but realized cheating was deal breaker, in the end bot moved on and are happy now with new partners, it took them almost two years but they are now in a better place.
> 
> ligth at the end of the tunnel my friend


Thank you. Although I haven't read those threads yet, I will this afternoon. Off to IC for now.

Thanks all.


----------



## WalterWhite420

MrK said:


> How is it possible to go from the throes of passion with your lover one minute to "GENUINELY sorry and determined to right all her wrongs" one second later. I can't buy that. Dump her unless she starts telling you the truth.


I definitely dumped her. And she's not going to get a 2nd chance from me.


----------



## bandit.45

WalterWhite420 said:


> Well, I definitely don't want to R. But I am taking a bit of solace from her begging and pleading. She's ruined her life. And she knows it.
> 
> But I still love her, I know. And I have to deal with that. But I know I can hold out long enough that my love for her will die.
> 
> After I'm officially divorced, I will begin casual dating and I imagine that will help me further. But it will be a while before I want to enter a relationship with anyone.


Another option would be to divorce, start dating and maybe consider dating your wife (soon to be ex-wife) also, along with other women. Make her compete with others for your sexual attention and affection. It would be the litmus test of all litmus tests to see if she really wants to remain your mate.


----------



## 12345Person

WalterWhite420 said:


> Well, I definitely don't want to R. But I am taking a bit of solace from her begging and pleading. She's ruined her life. And she knows it.
> 
> But I still love her, I know. And I have to deal with that. But I know I can hold out long enough that my love for her will die.
> 
> After I'm officially divorced, I will begin casual dating and I imagine that will help me further. But it will be a while before I want to enter a relationship with anyone.


Yeah, imagine all the new and exciting things you can do with life.

Building a new family sounds hella fun.


----------



## arbitrator

MrK said:


> How is it possible to go from the throes of passion with your lover one minute to "GENUINELY sorry and determined to right all her wrongs" one second later. I can't buy that. Dump her unless she starts telling you the truth.


*That's pretty easy to do when they're using their spouse as "Plan B," and then "Plan B" doesn't really materialize, and they just decide to go ahead and cheat anyway!*


----------



## Thorburn

I often said that on the one D-day in Nov. 2011 had I worked at my other location and not moved, my wife and the XOm would have been about 7 miles from my work place. As my son and I were tracking her and we knew what she was doing, I would have been there in about 20 minutes and I hate to say this but there would be two bodies found.

If I had walked in on my wife having sex with a dude in my house, I have no doubt what I would have done. That is why I gave my guns and pistols to my neighbor to hold for me after this last time. He recently gave them back to me and said, I think you are OK now.

The pleading from her is an ego boost. It is a shame that she did not use all that energy to remain faithful to you in the first place.


----------



## workindad

To bring him into your marital bed because she was bored... makes me think this was not her first affair. Just the first that you know about.

Sounds like money would have been there to pay for a hotel. 

Stick to your plan. You will be better off without her in the long run. You know it and so does she.


----------



## kristin2349

manticore said:


> Is not that uncommon, We have many users that had beat their OM without further problem than the police taking them some hours to the station and sometimes not even that.
> 
> Bashfulbull
> Oldsmitten
> Kasler
> 
> take in cosideration that OMs many times fear the public attention and many of them are between their mid 30's and late 40's when reputation is very important for social activies and Jobs, so raising attention about adultery over them is not always a good idea, the cases where I have seen OMs raising charges are almost always young adults in their early 20's and even those restrain themselves sometimes for not wanting be saw as pussies that got their asses kicket and then went to the police to wine.



I get it. I also know that a beat down is one thing. A broken jaw requires medical attention. That brings mandated reporters into the picture. Also if I saw a naked beaten man bleeding and running to his car in my nice little cul de sac I'd take a sec to call the police. But I'm far from naive I know Drs turn a blind eye. Cops say, count yourself lucky. The OM deserved the beat down and being tossed out naked like the trash he is. I NEVER said he didn't deserve it.

Is it all a bit too satisfying and convenient, in my book yeah. But that is my opinion. I also think what the wife did was beyond repulsive. And he should have tossed her and the mattress. I will say it again. I couldn't get past that, I'd probably sell the house. R wouldn't be an option for me. Again my opinion. 

I live in a stand your ground/castle doctrine, gun toting State, if I walked in on that I think the OW would have had a different ride out of my home. I'm 5"5 and 100lbs so giving someone a beat down is a challenge. I do have a carry permit and proper training along with a stun gun.


----------



## kristin2349

bandit.45 said:


> Another option would be to divorce, start dating and maybe consider dating your wife (soon to be ex-wife) also, along with other women. Make her compete with others for your sexual attention and affection. It would be the litmus test of all litmus tests to see if she really wants to remain your mate.


She isn't worthy of entering to compete! WTF, why waste another minute letting her think she might get away with it? Life is short.


----------



## BobSimmons

arbitrator said:


> *To walk in on and to experience the visualization of something as sordid as that would have undoubtedly left an indelibly marred, etched-in-stone image in a cheated spouse's mind. It would have been something well beyond sickening!
> 
> Hindsight being 20/20, had that happened to me and I would have had the natural resolve, along with access to at least a toy gun, I think that I would have held them at bay, right then and there, in that bed and would have calmly called the police and told them that I had a "breaking-and-entering" in progress and for them to dispatch a squad car; but before the unit ever made it there, I'd get some very unpleasant questions answered first, and heard both of their impassioned confessions.
> 
> Just after having taken a few cell phone photos of them!*


It is something I truly wouldn't wish on an enemy. There are few truly earth shattering events than this. How people deal with them varies but safe to say the relationship would end right there and then.


----------



## BobSimmons

There is no consolation but I think it "helped" that OP saw and heard what they were doing, rather than find out about it through an email or otherwise. It sounds like she's going to great lengths to reconcile, but OP will not forget what he saw. It makes things "clearer".


----------



## BetrayedDad

If a cheater is willing to go so far as to f*** another person, why would they hold the marital home or bed as sacred and off limits? When a cheater gets to that point, it's not that they do it to be malicious, they are simply so far gone that they don't care. It's just another opportunity, in a comfortable place, as opposed to the backs of cars and scummy motels that trash like them are typically used to.


----------



## arbitrator

BetrayedDad said:


> If a cheater is willing to go so far as to f*** another person, why would they hold the marital home or bed as sacred and off limits? When a cheater gets to that point, it's not that they do it to be malicious, they are simply so far gone that they don't care. It's just another opportunity, in a comfortable place, as opposed to the backs of cars and scummy motels that trash like them are typically used to.


*... and for just as long as they can get their ashes hauled with the object of their affection, without either their spouse or anyone else that they don't want finding out about it, they're good with that!

That way, they can emotionally moonlight, screw their lover's lights out, and continue to keep their spouse as "Plan B," all at the same time!*


----------



## vellocet

WalterWhite420 said:


> I just found that my wife is trying to meet in person with every member of our two families. She's apologizing to them in person and trying to get them to convince me that she is serious about R.


Here is the thing. People listen to a sobbing cheater and somewhat end up having some sympathy for them.

Your family didn't see what you saw. I guarantee if they see it for what it is, they wouldn't be swayed. If they saw a video tape of her wrapped around another guy and moaning, they'd be telling you to divorce her.....as I am.


----------



## manticore

kristin2349 said:


> I live in a stand your ground/castle doctrine, gun toting State, if I walked in on that I think the OW would have had a different ride out of my home. I'm 5"5 and 100lbs so giving someone a beat down is a challenge. I do have a carry permit and proper training along with a stun gun.


LOL, the image of a OM/OW convulsing on the floor totally naked is kind of funny (of course viewing it as third person not as the BS who is going through the experience) let's be honest, nobody said but everybody knows it, if you caught the cheater *on the act* you can pretty much kill him/her and be declared not guilty and continue with your life.

*I do not support violence, nor I encourage it* but I understand (I guess I would do the same in that situation) how there are situations where humans react like that and is engraved in our primal insticts, we humans want to be civilized beings and move forward our insticts, but we are also emphatic creatures (at least the mentally healthy ones) that understand that under certain situations civility can not be demanded or expected. 

"_hoo, se he found a pedo over her 5 year old daughter groping her and he beat him to death, sure sure defense of a third party_"

"_hoo, he found his wife in bed with other man and beat him and OM ended in the hospital, sure temporary insanity_"

even in our civilized society we have many laws that ensure that our primal acts triggered in the response of the flight or fight instinct are condoned.


----------



## WalterWhite420

workindad said:


> To bring him into your marital bed because she was bored... makes me think this was not her first affair. Just the first that you know about.
> 
> Sounds like money would have been there to pay for a hotel.
> 
> Stick to your plan. You will be better off without her in the long run. You know it and so does she.


Yes, I've considered this. She may very well have had other affairs.


----------



## WalterWhite420

vellocet said:


> First I'll say that your anger towards a man that will bed down a married woman is justified, and I won't criticize you for beating his ass.
> 
> However, since it is your wife that deserves the worst outcome of this, since you beat his ass, I'm a little disappointed you simply asked her to leave.
> 
> I am not saying beat her ass, because I don't condone it. But you should have escorted her out of the house and thrown her out naked.
> 
> Dude, you actually caught them. Those visions will never go away, and will cause you pain UNLESS you get rid of her for good. Render those visions insignificant by rendering her insignificant.
> 
> If you don't get rid of her and divorce, you will regret it. I can guarantee you that.
> 
> And before anyone jumps on the "people do reconcile bandwagon", I'm not arguing that at all.
> 
> But this guy SAW the guy f****g his wife, her wrapped around him, and her moaning with pleasure. Stick a fork in this b**ch. She's done.


Yes, I agree. But I'll also say this: if she had only had a EA, I would still be divorcing her. That's just me. I admire anyone who can forgive EAs and PAs, But I could forgive neither. I have to start a new life with hopefully a good and faithful woman.


----------



## WalterWhite420

vellocet said:


> Here is the thing. People listen to a sobbing cheater and somewhat end up having some sympathy for them.
> 
> Your family didn't see what you saw. I guarantee if they see it for what it is, they wouldn't be swayed. If they saw a video tape of her wrapped around another guy and moaning, they'd be telling you to divorce her.....as I am.


As time has passed thru this ordeal, her support from her family has dwindled. And of course she never had any support from my family.

I sent out a blanket email today to everyone in both families that said (in part) the following:

"It has come to my attention that Carrie is actively trying to organize support throughout our families to encourage me to reconcile with her. So I feel I should say without hesitation or wavering that reconciliation will NEVER happen. I'm done with her, and am moving on with my life. I hope that none of you are angry with me, because I love and respect you all immensely. None of this is your fault. And none of it is my fault. It's ALL Carrie's fault."


----------



## manticore

detaching from your wife will depend in grand part of your actions, unlike other cases you don't have kids and your divorce will be in base of your prenup, so direct communication with her will happen just if you allowed it, otherwise you can even conduct your divorce througt lawyers without the need of interecting with her, remember the least you saw her, talk with her, ask about her, hear about her the faster you will detach.

also is very important for you form a support group (family and friends loyal to you and with no strings to your wife) with who you can hang out, go to parties, dinner, social gatherings to distract yourself, I am not asking you to date but go and enjoy a social life with other human beings.

you can also find a Hobby and my favorite of all, excercise, you can hit the gym or jog, endorphines really help you to feel better, and losing weight and getting fitter helps to empower your own image.

(dating is also a quick way to empower yourself but if your are still grieving your realtionship is okey)


----------



## manticore

WalterWhite420 said:


> It's ALL Carrie's fault."


you should not find weird if some people respond to you and to everybody else blaming you for her affair, you have to understand that a father or a brother wish to delude themselves and see their onw family and loved ones as pefect beings, try to not engage yourselkf in unfruitful discussions, after all your are divorcing. (I am not telling you to not defend yourself if they put blame on you, but don't seek conforntation trying to make them understand how worng was her act, there is a possibility that even knowing cheating is wrong they will never take your side for they love to her)


----------



## WalterWhite420

BobSimmons said:


> There is no consolation but I think it "helped" that OP saw and heard what they were doing, rather than find out about it through an email or otherwise. It sounds like she's going to great lengths to reconcile, but OP will not forget what he saw. It makes things "clearer".


Yes it does. As strange as it may sound (and I know it sounds strange), I'm kinda relieved I don't have to imagine what they did. Although it sure does hurt KNOWING what they did.


----------



## arbitrator

*The blame for any infidelity is preeminently with the marital partner who self-servingly chooses to pick and eat the forbidden fruit ~and not the other way around! Simple enough!*


----------



## WalterWhite420

manticore said:


> you should not find weird if some people respond to you and to everybody else blaming you for her affair, you have to understand that a father or a brother wish to delude themselves and see their onw family and loved ones as pefect beings, try to not engage yourselkf in unfruitful discussions, after all your are divorcing. (I am not telling you to not defend yourself if they put blame on you, but don't seek conforntation trying to make them understand how worng was her act, there is a possibility that even knowing cheating is wrong they will never take your side for they love to her)


Yes, her brother (my former best friend) is giving me a hard time for "defaming" his sister. He does not condone what she did, but he thinks I should have handled it quietly, instead of publishing every detail I knew in an open letter to the entire family (on both sides). 

I guess it was kind of a shock for her parents and brother and sisters and adult nieces and nephews to read about her having her legs wrapped around another man who was pumping her in my bed, and moaning in pleasure from it.

But it was the truth I thought they should know.

Wow, I can't believe that after just 3 days in this forum, I can write the words above with a lot less pain than I could have 4 days ago.


----------



## WalterWhite420

BTW, I must say that my IC was right. Posting my story on this web site has helped me a lot. He said after our session today that he could tell that my condition has improved immensely. He has read this entire thread, and is encouraging me to remain here and continue actively in this thread.

Thank you all.


----------



## happyman64

WalterWhite420 said:


> Yes, I'm totally honest with my IC. And he thinks this might indicate that deep inside, I really want to R with her. But I don't think so. I think I'm just the kind of person who wants to hit back when someone hits me.


There is nothing wrong with that Walter.

I believe in hitting back and I did.

What will you do after you Divorce?

What will you do after you date around and still realize your wife might still be the love of your life?

What will you do if you realize that there are way better woman out there than your wife?

The key is being honest with yourself.

And so far that seems to be working for you.

I hope your families realize that you could only live with the truth....

I think you did the right thing.

Now go out and find a new best friend.

HM


----------



## manticore

WalterWhite420 said:


> Yes, her brother (my former best friend) is giving me a hard time for "defaming" his sister. He does not condone what she did, but he thinks I should have handled it quietly, instead of publishing every detail I knew in an open letter to the entire family (on both sides).
> 
> I guess it was kind of a shock for her parents and brother and sisters and adult nieces and nephews to read about her having her legs wrapped around another man who was pumping her in my bed, and moaning in pleasure from it.


yes nothing you can do about it, let me give you one of the most extreme examples I have seen:

User "Leaving"
forum: Love shack
Situation: he found in his house her wife banging with his best friend since chilhood, his friend has been always a POSOM that banged married women he just thought that he will never do that to him because the were best friends.

quote:
_"I thought yesterday was one of the worst day of my life but today takes the cake in lunch meeting with the in-laws and STBXW the truth were finally revealed I told her mother I was dirvoricng her because of all the lies and trust issues I have with her she begged her to come clean and maybe I could find it in my heart to forgive her(i was kinda taking her mother lead so I could finally get the truth for once and all) she came clean and it shocked me to my core

We been married 3years she's been fuxxing this ******* behind my back almost half the time we been married

She brought him $2000 worth of cloths outta the fuxxing money I gave her(this bitxh even was paying his phone bills for a couple of months)

He spent that night dozens of times while I was out on business trips

They stop sex having two months ago(she was fuxxing this idiot while we were in a false recovery)

they stop communicating when she decided to move back in after the second time I kicked her azz out(she said once again she was only communicating because of the friendship)

the worst part was somehow the super ****t became pregnant and didn't know who the father was so she aborted the baby(that shocked her parents to core I could see it in their eyes)

After hearing all this her parent's still begged my to commit to this marriage but I told them there is no way in hell was I ever going back to her again not after all the ****t she just told me

*And then I started getting blame for all the ****t that happen saying I wasn't spending enough time at home and it was my fault the super ****t ranned out and fuxxed my bestfriend*"_




so don't waste your time trying to reason with them, is a common delusional behaviour from the WS's family


----------



## Ollie2

manticore said:


> many people try to force themselves to R even when they know cheating is really deal breaker for them, which only leads to resentment and anger and in the end not being able to even have a civil relationship in the future.


:iagree:


----------



## WalterWhite420

happyman64 said:


> There is nothing wrong with that Walter.
> 
> I believe in hitting back and I did.
> 
> What will you do after you Divorce?
> 
> What will you do after you date around and still realize your wife might still be the love of your life?
> 
> What will you do if you realize that there are way better woman out there than your wife?
> 
> The key is being honest with yourself.
> 
> And so far that seems to be working for you.
> 
> I hope your families realize that you could only live with the truth....
> 
> I think you did the right thing.
> 
> Now go out and find a new best friend.
> 
> HM


These are good questions, the best being "What will you do after you date around and still realize your wife might still be the love of your life?". 

The truth is, I don't know. She is (or was) a very amazing woman. Most single men would want her. And many married men too.

She is beautiful, sexy, engaging, humorous, strong, smart, etc. Most single men would dream about having her.

But I'm done with her.


----------



## hopefulgirl

WalterWhite420 said:


> Yes, her brother (my former best friend) is giving me a hard time for "defaming" his sister. He does not condone what she did, but he thinks I should have handled it quietly, instead of publishing every detail I knew in an open letter to the entire family (on both sides).
> 
> I guess it was kind of a shock for her parents and brother and sisters and adult nieces and nephews to read about her having her legs wrapped around another man who was pumping her in my bed, and moaning in pleasure from it.
> 
> But it was the truth I thought they should know.


Wow. KIND of a shock?

No, HER PARENTS and adult nieces didn't have to know about "her having her legs wrapped around another man who was pumping her in my bed, and moaning in pleasure from it." This borders on pornographic. It went too far. I'm a betrayed spouse, and what happened to me broke my heart, but even I don't see the need to shock all these people like that with those details. I would be annoyed if I received a letter like this from anybody in my family - even if it WAS "the truth." It's disgusting. Men may talk like this with each other, but believe me, a lot of women find this crude and gross and to open a letter like this would be actually upsetting to them. Do you even care about THEM?

Just because something is "the truth" doesn't mean everyone has to know it! When YOU had sex with your wife, did you write a letter about the details to all those people with "the truth" in it? 

"Exposure" is supposed to be about putting a stop to an affair, not to get revenge, which is clearly what you're more interested in. Revenge may be sweet, but mostly in fantasy. In real life, it tends to turn bitter very soon, and it can poison the person who pursues it with too much fervor. 

You do know what happened to Walter White, don't you?

I hope you never did anything bad in your life. Because you wouldn't want someone writing a letter about "the truth" and sending it to a lot of people and embarrassing you, would you? If I were you, I'd apologize to the people to whom you sent that letter (especially the women). You were seeking revenge and you didn't think first before you acted.


----------



## BrockLanders

When you find yourself having positive feelings about her that would lead to R think about how she didn't even have the god damned courtesy to go to a no-tell motel. She did it in the bed you sleep in. I'm also gonna guess that this dirtbag didn't have a rubber attached to him when you threw his sorry ass out. 

You sound better since your fist post. Take that aggression out at the gym, or join a sport and you'll get past it all. You guys don't have kids right? No reason to stay at all.

Her expiration date has passed, your options on the dating scene are really good. 2014 is your year, son.


----------



## BrockLanders

hopefulgirl said:


> Wow. KIND of a shock?
> 
> No, HER PARENTS and adult nieces didn't have to know about "her having her legs wrapped around another man who was pumping her in my bed, and moaning in pleasure from it." This borders on pornographic. It went too far. I'm a betrayed spouse, and what happened to me broke my heart, but even I don't see the need to shock all these people like that with those details. I would be annoyed if I received a letter like this from anybody in my family - even if it WAS "the truth." It's disgusting. Men may talk like this with each other, but believe me, a lot of women find this crude and gross and to open a letter like this would be actually upsetting to them. Do you even care about THEM?
> 
> Just because something is "the truth" doesn't mean everyone has to know it! When YOU had sex with your wife, did you write a letter about the details to all those people with "the truth" in it?
> 
> "Exposure" is supposed to be about putting a stop to an affair, not to get revenge, which is clearly what you're more interested in. Revenge may be sweet, but mostly in fantasy. In real life, it tends to turn bitter very soon, and it can poison the person who pursues it with too much fervor.
> 
> You do know what happened to Walter White, don't you?
> 
> I hope you never did anything bad in your life. Because you wouldn't want someone writing a letter about "the truth" and sending it to a lot of people and embarrassing you, would you? If I were you, I'd apologize to the people to whom you sent that letter (especially the women). You were seeking revenge and you didn't think first before you acted.


He doesn't need to filter the truth to meet her family's sensibilities or hangups. 

Stop blaming the victim. It's bullshyt.


----------



## verpin zal

WalterWhite420 said:


> Yes, her brother (my former best friend) is giving me a hard time for "defaming" his sister. He does not condone what she did, but he thinks I should have handled it quietly, instead of publishing every detail I knew in an open letter to the entire family (on both sides).
> 
> I guess it was kind of a shock for her parents and brother and sisters and adult nieces and nephews to read about her having her legs wrapped around another man who was pumping her in my bed, and moaning in pleasure from it.
> 
> But it was the truth I thought they should know.
> 
> Wow, I can't believe that after just 3 days in this forum, I can write the words above with a lot less pain than I could have 4 days ago.


The man probably isn't thinking about her slvt sister, he's worried about his own reputation.

Don't give it much thought, it's prolly running in the family anyway.


----------



## verpin zal

hopefulgirl said:


> Wow. KIND of a shock?
> 
> No, HER PARENTS and adult nieces didn't have to know about "her having her legs wrapped around another man who was pumping her in my bed, and moaning in pleasure from it." This borders on pornographic. It went too far. I'm a betrayed spouse, and what happened to me broke my heart, but even I don't see the need to shock all these people like that with those details. I would be annoyed if I received a letter like this from anybody in my family - even if it WAS "the truth." It's disgusting. Men may talk like this with each other, but believe me, a lot of women find this crude and gross and to open a letter like this would be actually upsetting to them. Do you even care about THEM?
> 
> Just because something is "the truth" doesn't mean everyone has to know it! When YOU had sex with your wife, did you write a letter about the details to all those people with "the truth" in it?
> 
> "Exposure" is supposed to be about putting a stop to an affair, not to get revenge, which is clearly what you're more interested in. Revenge may be sweet, but mostly in fantasy. In real life, it tends to turn bitter very soon, and it can poison the person who pursues it with too much fervor.
> 
> You do know what happened to Walter White, don't you?
> 
> I hope you never did anything bad in your life. Because you wouldn't want someone writing a letter about "the truth" and sending it to a lot of people and embarrassing you, would you? If I were you, I'd apologize to the people *to whom you sent that letter (especially the women)*. You were seeking revenge and you didn't think first before you acted.


May I ask you to elaborate on the bolded part, please?


----------



## manticore

hopefulgirl said:


> I hope you never did anything bad in your life. Because you wouldn't want someone writing a letter about "the truth" and sending it to a lot of people and embarrassing you, would you? If I were you, I'd apologize to the people to whom you sent that letter (especially the women). You were seeking revenge and you didn't think first before you acted.


hopefulgirl 

I have read alot of your threads and Posts, and let me tell you as a person and as a human being I am sorry about your situation nobody deserves to be hurt or betrayed, and I hope you could heal completely.

now, as a poster you seem to me as a person with strong double stardar rules regarding situtations of men and women, any action men do are unforgivable and any action women do could be condoned one way of other.

*(especially the women).*

why specially to them? learning about the betrayal of one of their gender did is any different? must woman be spared about their actions? their betrayal must be handled any different than men betrayal? deceit. manipulation, ploting and planning to betray a loved one must be depicted less damaging because women are victims of players?

there are other female users here as Turnera and Anonymous Person that come to me as crude, bold and sometimes over the line, but they are objetives and impartial in their point of views.

I just can suggest you to be a Little more emphatic towards users regardless they gender, and understanding that specially in new users case, they come looking for advice and no criticism.

is true that sometimes users need a good slap to wake them from their delusion, their wishful thinking or even the fog (in the ws's cases) but neither of them is the case of WW420.


----------



## WalterWhite420

hopefulgirl said:


> Wow. KIND of a shock?
> 
> No, HER PARENTS and adult nieces didn't have to know about "her having her legs wrapped around another man who was pumping her in my bed, and moaning in pleasure from it." This borders on pornographic. It went too far. I'm a betrayed spouse, and what happened to me broke my heart, but even I don't see the need to shock all these people like that with those details. I would be annoyed if I received a letter like this from anybody in my family - even if it WAS "the truth." It's disgusting. Men may talk like this with each other, but believe me, a lot of women find this crude and gross and to open a letter like this would be actually upsetting to them. Do you even care about THEM?
> 
> Just because something is "the truth" doesn't mean everyone has to know it! When YOU had sex with your wife, did you write a letter about the details to all those people with "the truth" in it?
> 
> "Exposure" is supposed to be about putting a stop to an affair, not to get revenge, which is clearly what you're more interested in. Revenge may be sweet, but mostly in fantasy. In real life, it tends to turn bitter very soon, and it can poison the person who pursues it with too much fervor.
> 
> You do know what happened to Walter White, don't you?
> 
> I hope you never did anything bad in your life. Because you wouldn't want someone writing a letter about "the truth" and sending it to a lot of people and embarrassing you, would you? If I were you, I'd apologize to the people to whom you sent that letter (especially the women). You were seeking revenge and you didn't think first before you acted.


Oh yes, hell yes, I DID think long and hard about my actions before I did them...and I stand by my decision...

Her x-rated, adulterous actions should have been exposed for all to know her shame...and I saw to it that they were...and I'd do it again tomorrow...


----------



## arbitrator

hopefulgirl said:


> Wow. KIND of a shock?
> 
> No, HER PARENTS and adult nieces didn't have to know about "her having her legs wrapped around another man who was pumping her in my bed, and moaning in pleasure from it." This borders on pornographic. It went too far. I'm a betrayed spouse, and what happened to me broke my heart, but even I don't see the need to shock all these people like that with those details. I would be annoyed if I received a letter like this from anybody in my family - even if it WAS "the truth." It's disgusting. Men may talk like this with each other, but believe me, a lot of women find this crude and gross and to open a letter like this would be actually upsetting to them. Do you even care about THEM?
> 
> Just because something is "the truth" doesn't mean everyone has to know it! When YOU had sex with your wife, did you write a letter about the details to all those people with "the truth" in it?
> 
> "Exposure" is supposed to be about putting a stop to an affair, not to get revenge, which is clearly what you're more interested in. Revenge may be sweet, but mostly in fantasy. In real life, it tends to turn bitter very soon, and it can poison the person who pursues it with too much fervor.
> 
> You do know what happened to Walter White, don't you?
> 
> I hope you never did anything bad in your life. Because you wouldn't want someone writing a letter about "the truth" and sending it to a lot of people and embarrassing you, would you? If I were you, I'd apologize to the people to whom you sent that letter (especially the women). You were seeking revenge and you didn't think first before you acted.


*I was seriously wanting to expose my skanky XW to her entire family with all of her sordid FB postings, cell-phone/texting records and timelines, to greatly vindicate me from any lies that she may have heretofore told.

But in talking with my Methodist pastor, close church friends, and professional friends, they all fear that her family might further distance themselves from me in that all I would be perpetrating would be "revenge" rather than disclosure. They think that I should only supply a true copy of those records to my XW only ~ with only a mention in her letter that it has also been sent to a couple of her family members as well as to two of her close friends, and also to our pastor ~ only that they would not have been sent! Just make her think that they were sent, where she could go into damage control on folks that didn't have a clue!

My pastor cited Romans 12:19 ~ "Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God. For it is written "Vengeance is mine, I will repay," sayeth the Lord."*


----------



## BrockLanders

arbitrator said:


> *I was seriously wanting to expose my skanky XW to her entire family with all of her sordid FB postings, cell-phone/texting records and timelines, to greatly vindicate me from any lies that she may have heretofore told.
> 
> But in talking with my Methodist pastor, close church friends, and professional friends, they all fear that her family might further distance themselves from me in that all I would be perpetrating would be "revenge" rather than disclosure. They think that I should only supply a true copy of those records to my XW only ~ with only a mention in her letter that it has also been sent to a couple of her family members as well as to two of her close friends, and also to our pastor ~ only that they would not have been sent! Just make her think that they were sent, where she could go into damage control on folks that didn't have a clue!
> 
> My pastor cited Romans 12:19 ~ "Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God. For it is written "Vengeance is mine, I will repay," sayeth the Lord."*


Context is important. Your wife could have been stoned to death if found fxxing another guy when that was written. That passage has no relevance in discussing a cheating spouse.


----------



## WalterWhite420

arbitrator said:


> *I was seriously wanting to expose my skanky XW to her entire family with all of her sordid FB postings, cell-phone/texting records and timelines, to greatly vindicate me from any lies that she may have heretofore told.
> 
> But in talking with my Methodist pastor, close church friends, and professional friends, they all fear that her family might further distance themselves from me in that all I would be perpetrating would be "revenge" rather than disclosure. They think that I should only supply a true copy of those records to my XW only ~ with only a mention in her letter that it has also been sent to a couple of her family members as well as to two of her close friends, and also to our pastor ~ only that they would not have been sent! Just make her think that they were sent, where she could go into damage control on folks that didn't have a clue!
> 
> My pastor cited Romans 12:19 ~ "Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God. For it is written "Vengeance is mine, I will repay," sayeth the Lord."*


Sir, I can only wish I had your strength...

Your decision and resolve can only serve as inspiration for others...thank you.


----------



## happyman64

WalterWhite420 said:


> These are good questions, the best being "What will you do after you date around and still realize your wife might still be the love of your life?".
> 
> The truth is, I don't know. She is (or was) a very amazing woman. Most single men would want her. And many married men too.
> 
> She is *beautiful, sexy, engaging, humorous, strong, smart,* etc. Most single men would dream about having her.
> 
> But I'm done with her.


Walter

I am glad you answered the questions.

Now let me show you one thing that will help you heal.

She was *beautiful* but no longer is in my mind. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I am no longer the beholder. She gave that to someone else.

She was *sexy* until she decided to give up the sex to a 3rd party outside of our marriage.

Of course she was *engaging*. She was engaging the OM right in our marital home in our marital bed. Sadly I wasn't the only person she was engaging.

I find nothing *humorous* about our situation. In fact I go between anger and sadness these days. I look forward to being happy again.

I have turned out to be the *strong* person in our marriage. I thought she was the strong one but I realize now just how weak she truly is.

I thought she was *smart* but what smart woman cheats on her faithful husband of 19 years of marriage in our own home, in our own bed when she knew I would be home later.

No she is not very smart at all.

I think the only mistake you made Walter was putting her on the pedestal you made for her. You trusted her too much. You loved her too much.

All she did was prove to you how unworthy she really was.

We have all been there.

Have better and happier 2014!

HM


----------



## arbitrator

happyman64 said:


> Walter
> 
> I am glad you answered the questions.
> 
> Now let me show you one thing that will help you heal.
> 
> She was *beautiful* but no longer is in my mind. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I am no longer the beholder. She gave that to someone else.
> 
> She was *sexy* until she decided to give up the sex to a 3rd party outside of our marriage.
> 
> Of course she was *engaging*. She was engaging the OM right in our marital home in our marital bed. Sadly I wasn't the only person she was engaging.
> 
> I find nothing *humorous* about our situation. In fact I go between anger and sadness these days. I look forward to being happy again.
> 
> I have turned out to be the *strong* person in our marriage. I thought she was the strong one but I realize now just how weak she truly is.
> 
> I thought she was *smart* but what smart woman cheats on her faithful husband of 19 years of marriage in our own home, in our own bed when she knew I would be home later.
> 
> No she is not very smart at all.
> 
> I think the only mistake you made Walter was putting her on the pedestal you made for her. You trusted her too much. You loved her too much.
> 
> All she did was prove to you how unworthy she really was.
> 
> We have all been there.
> 
> Have better and happier 2014!
> 
> HM


*Hap: That is absolutely fantastic, Sir! Now if that doesn't hit home with the betrayed, then I'm afraid that nothing will!*


----------



## WalterWhite420

happyman64 said:


> Walter
> 
> I am glad you answered the questions.
> 
> Now let me show you one thing that will help you heal.
> 
> She was *beautiful* but no longer is in my mind. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I am no longer the beholder. She gave that to someone else.
> 
> She was *sexy* until she decided to give up the sex to a 3rd party outside of our marriage.
> 
> Of course she was *engaging*. She was engaging the OM right in our marital home in our marital bed. Sadly I wasn't the only person she was engaging.
> 
> I find nothing *humorous* about our situation. In fact I go between anger and sadness these days. I look forward to being happy again.
> 
> I have turned out to be the *strong* person in our marriage. I thought she was the strong one but I realize now just how weak she truly is.
> 
> I thought she was *smart* but what smart woman cheats on her faithful husband of 19 years of marriage in our own home, in our own bed when she knew I would be home later.
> 
> No she is not very smart at all.
> 
> I think the only mistake you made Walter was putting her on the pedestal you made for her. You trusted her too much. You loved her too much.
> 
> All she did was prove to you how unworthy she really was.
> 
> We have all been there.
> 
> Have better and happier 2014!
> 
> HM


Yes, thanks for the no-nonsense and brutally honest comments...I really DO appreciate honesty...


----------



## arbitrator

BrockLanders said:


> Context is important. Your wife could have been stoned to death if found fxxing another guy when that was written. That passage has no relevance in discussing a cheating spouse.


*Brock: What you say is largely true. But we must use that scripture for our betterment in the world that we reside in today. And just as Paul penned those words, he did not feel that stoning or putting someone to death was going to accomplish anything, at least from a Christian perspective.

Now inasfar as the cheating spouse is concerned, I would beg to differ. Just as my XW did what she did, under the cover of deception as well as her lies in attempting to cover it all up, in time, I greatly feel that she will have to answer to that higher authority for her sordid actions, much like the rest of us will have to account for our many transgressions!*


----------



## hopefulgirl

> I hope you never did anything bad in your life. Because you wouldn't want someone writing a letter about "the truth" and sending it to a lot of people and embarrassing you, would you? If I were you, I'd apologize to the people *to whom you sent that letter (especially the women)*. You were seeking revenge and you didn't think first before you acted.





verpin zal said:


> May I ask you to elaborate on the bolded part, please?


I was trying to be understanding (though I still find the graphic descriptions over the top and unnecessary): perhaps receiving such a letter might not have been as offensive to the men in the family (though it clearly was to her brother, and I suspect it was to her father). I thought I had explained my reason for this earlier in my post when I said that men may talk among each other like this but most women, as a rule, do not and find this kind of talk crude and gross. It's almost to the level of getting unsolicited porn in the mail, which is unsettling to most women, and I think it deserves an apology. 

It was very self-centered and did not consider the feelings of the recipients at all.

Since I can't think like a man, I'm guessing it might not be AS important to send apologies to the men, though I think it was an intrusion in the sense that it's still "TMI" (too much information) and nobody else's head needed to be filled with those images - that's why I said apologies ideally to all, but especially the women, who are more likely to be disturbed by receiving such graphic revenge "verbal vomit." 

It was all about revenge for WW. It may have upset some of the recipients, even disturbed their sleep - I'm thinking of the mother especially. Women, in case you haven't noticed, are less inclined to describe sex acts like two dogs going at it. So yes, getting a letter like this is likely to be "kind of a shock" and it was inappropriate. I get being hurt - I'm a BS too. I sympathize with WW's pain. But not with flinging vitriol around so it lands on innocent bystanders.


----------



## bryanp

I would like to agree with what a previous poster had mentioned. You wife brought this guy into your home and screwed him in your marital bed. This is highly symbolic on multiple levels. She was clearly symbolically defecated on you and your marriage. 

I am also sure that she was getting off in your bed knowing she was doing this behind your back. It is highly unlikely that this was a one time event. Having a wife screwing her lover in her home and in her marital bed means she was quite convertible in doing this which suggests that this was probably an ongoing process where she felt comfortable screwing him in your home after having sex with him on previous occasions elsewhere.


----------



## tom67

bryanp said:


> I would like to agree with what a previous poster had mentioned. You wife brought this guy into your home and screwed him in your marital bed. This is highly symbolic on multiple levels. She was clearly symbolically defecated on you and your marriage.
> 
> I am also sure that she was getting off in your bed knowing she was doing this behind your back. It is highly unlikely that this was a one time event. Having a wife screwing her lover in her home and in her marital bed means she was quite convertible in doing this which suggests that this was probably an ongoing process where she felt comfortable screwing him in your home after having sex with him on previous occasions elsewhere.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## manticore

hopefulgirl said:


> I was trying to be...................................


WOW just WOW, I have so many things to comment and refute about your stataments.

but honestly I see no point in doing it, you will keep saying how he was disrespectful and how he wronged the women.

so I will just bring a old saying here "if you have nothing nice to say don't say anything at all".

*Users come here looking for advice, support and companionship.*

you have gave neither.

in the only two posts you have wrote here, you have only criticized, attacked, questioned his sensibility and imposed your self righteous ways over him.

If you feel that bad about the OP's actions (who in reality was just one action, sending the letter and after that he have done nothing regarding her STBXW), then I encourage you to look for other OP's threads whose actions and wolds vision are similar to yours.


----------



## jnj express

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH ZERO TOLERANCE

IMHO----actually seeing her, and seeing her in your own home, in the marital bed, made it easier for you to make your decision---she may say she was bored,---but she also had ABSOLUTELY NO RESPECT FOR YOU BRINGING A STRANGER INTO YOUR BED, if she was so bored, why did she not go to you and tell you, we need to do something to get some hot passion back into our relationship----all mge's become boring after a time---the spouses need to work on keeping things interesting for each other----your wife, decided to he*l with helping my own mge, I will just help myself to a little foreign spice----so believe me this is not the woman you love so deeply

She has stepped out of the circle of mge---and she can never come back into that circle----what she is now fighting for---is for you to not cause her to go out into the world, as a D, single, with the tag of adulteress------sure she will get lots of guys, that will take her out and want to bed her---but in actuality, what kind of slime are those guys---that is what is out there for her, AND SHE KNOWS IT------so she is now fighting as hard as she can to get you to allow her back into her previous cushy life style-----

Problem with that is if you were to take her back---her presence in front of you, will just trigger you---to misery and memories, you do not need

as for her brother stating you defamed her---that is BS---the TRUTH is not defamation---she IS an adulteress/manipulator/liar/cheat/and devious woman---WHO WENT OUT AND SPREAD HER LEGS FOR FUN----how can the truth be defamation

She "dissed" you in the worst way---stick by your guns----you will be way better off

As to still loving her---the woman who now calls you, is not the woman you loved---that woman died, when she began her A., and willing drove a sword thru your heart, when she willingly/happily/and wanting to---took another man into your marital bed

You are making the right decision---it is what you need, to help you restore peace of mind, stick by it


----------



## hopefulgirl

manticore said:


> WOW just WOW, I have so many things to comment and refute about your stataments.
> 
> but honestly I see no point in doing it, you will keep saying how he was disrespectful and how he wronged the women.
> 
> so I will just bring a old saying here "if you have nothing nice to say don't say anything at all".
> 
> *Users come here looking for advice, support and companionship.*
> 
> you have gave neither.
> 
> in the only two posts you have wrote here, you have only criticized, attacked, questioned his sensibility and imposed your self righteous ways over him.
> 
> If you feel that bad about the OP's actions (who in reality was just one action, sending the letter and after that he have done nothing regarding her STBXW), then I encourage you to look for other OP's threads whose actions and wolds vision are similar to yours.


Like WW provided support to Thorburn tonight on his thread? Thorburn had posted today about his wife being very ill - she thinks she may be dying. And he's been triggering badly lately. So in "support," WW quoted Thorburn - from some time ago - about listening to a recording of his wife having sex, then WW goes on to tell about his letter. You mean I should offer support to people like WW did to Thorburn tonight?




> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Thorburn
> Don't know shaggy. I am listening to the recording now. It is heart breaking.
> 
> I told every detail I know about my wife's A to her entire family in an open letter, and I'm glad I did. I will never regret it.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

hopefulgirl said:


> Like WW provided support to Thorburn tonight on his thread? Thorburn had posted today about his wife being very ill - she thinks she may be dying. And he's been triggering badly lately. So in "support," WW quoted Thorburn - from some time ago - about listening to a recording of his wife having sex, then WW goes on to tell about his letter. You mean I should offer support to people like WW did to Thorburn tonight?


This is blatantly ridiculous and unwarranted. Walter did what posters do every month even regular long time posters. They read part of a thread, something hits home and they respond. They do not bother to look at dates or the end of the thread. He replied to a post from FEBRUARY. So, in ignorance to what is happening at the end of the thread, he posted with empathy towards someone he felt experienced something similar to him.


----------



## manticore

hopefulgirl said:


> Like WW provided support to Thorburn tonight on his thread? Thorburn had posted today about his wife being very ill - she thinks she may be dying. And he's been triggering badly lately. So in "support," WW quoted Thorburn - from some time ago - about listening to a recording of his wife having sex, then WW goes on to tell about his letter. You mean I should offer support to people like WW did to Thorburn tonight?





phillybeffandswiss said:


> This is blatantly ridiculous and unwarranted. Walter did what posters do every month even regular long time posters. They read part of a thread, something hits home and they respond. They do not bother to look at dates or the end of the thread. He replied to a post from FEBRUARY. So, in ignorance to what is happening at the end of the thread, he posted with empathy towards someone he felt experienced something similar to him.


hopefulgirl you have lost all my respect as poster.

I send you 2 private messages with the hope that you would decide to delate this post, as phillybeffandswiss said and as I wrote you in the private messages you took out of context the walter's post, he is a new user so I doubt he had time to read all thornburn's thread, he read page one and quoted it, I don't think he even know that he reconciled, and he probably was looking for threads where users found graphic evidence as himself, I doubt that in the few days he have been here, he had time to read the whole 150 pages thread.

you in the other hand, as veteran user seems that for some reason took a personal vendetta againts Walter, just God knows why, Walter came here following the advice of his therapist, your bahaviour and false accusations seem childish and focusing in winning an argument instead of providing any kind of feedback.

*stop this at once.*

Walter an apology, this a outstanding supporting community and this behaviour is far from common.


----------



## aug

having family fights already?


----------



## Will_Kane

I find hopefulgirl's posts helpful and insightful.

It can be difficult to post a dissenting viewpoint here, but it always is good to see the issue from all sides and I tend to learn more from those that I disagree with than those that I agree with, not that I necessarily disagree with hopefulgirl in this instance. 

I can see it from both sides, it being TMI for her family members and somewhat offensive to them, who Walter considers so close to himself as well, and at the same time I can't find fault with Walter for the reaction he had to such a highly charged emotional situation.

Walter is not only losing his wife, but also her family, which apparently was as close to him as his own family, and he is losing his best friend, and I think that was likely to be the case whether he sent the explicit detailed letter or not.


----------



## CouldItBeSo

There is so much advocating of violence from many posters in this thread it's kind of disturbing.


----------



## jack.c

WalterWhite420 said:


> Yes, I agree. But I'll also say this: if she had only had a EA, I would still be divorcing her. That's just me. I admire anyone who can forgive EAs and PAs, But I could forgive neither. I have to start a new life with hopefully a good and faithful woman.


Exactly like me! I did it, and dont regret it at all!! Happily married with 2 kids now.... and very proud of them!
You are doing the best thing for yourself, and many should take your (and mine) example!


----------



## dogman

WalterWhite420 said:


> Oh yes, hell yes, I DID think long and hard about my actions before I did them...and I stand by my decision...
> 
> Her x-rated, adulterous actions should have been exposed for all to know her shame...and I saw to it that they were...and I'd do it again tomorrow...


I feel everyone who cheats should be exposed like this. So many people will homogenize what happens by calling it an "affair" or a "mistake" or "tryst" or whatever,mother truth is she got naked and spread her legs for another man to Phuck her in your bed no less. 

It needs to be called what it is to all who will take sides and judge.


----------



## Gomerpyle

CouldItBeSo said:


> There is so much advocating of violence from many posters in this thread it's kind of disturbing.


I don't even support the emotional energy spent wishing the worst for the wayward spouse, and do not see the point of getting so graphic with the in-laws. 

Informing is one thing, but the salaciousness isn't something you see counselors recommending.


----------



## LongWalk

Hopefulgirl's post is completely legitimate. It is an opinion. She has a right to one. Walter surely came to hear differing views, not a chorus of parrots.

In this day and age graphic details about sex are not so shocking anymore. Was revenge part of the motive? Perhaps there was a bit of payback in the email. But it was factual.

Walter,

Are you sorry that you did not have children?

Do you think that your (mutual) decision not have them contributed to your WW's mindset, i.e., the purpose of sex was pleasure, not reproduction.

Would you be curious to know what your wife thinks about this now? Does she wish that she had a child to remember you by?

Does she believe that if you had had a child she would have had a better chance of getting you back?

Does she fantasize about having a child now?

Would she have been a good mother?

Your reaction to catching that guy and dishing out a licking to him was instinctive. You did what our genes have programmed us to do but society forbids. In fact, it is so forbidden that some readers believed you were a provocative fabulist. Your WW was clearly impressed by your behavior at the liminal level. If you had not confronted but snuck out and complained later after he had left, maybe she would not be so attracted to you today. Your thoughts?

You have no children. You can look forward to having new relationships.

Your WW may love you a lot. She may be trying to fix her reputation. It may be some combination of the two. That is her problem now.

Your love for her will die out but it will take time.


----------



## 2asdf2

LongWalk said:


> -------snip--------
> 
> In fact, it is so forbidden that some readers believed you were a *provocative fabulist*.
> 
> --------------snip---------


I loved the expression.:smthumbup:


----------



## denisefire

I feel for you I really do . I think this is a great step for you to let out and talk about your feelings . I have never experienced what you have been through. I know I would be hurting like no tomorrow . It is such a betrayal from someone you think the world of and would never do that to them . Although I don't condone violence, he had it coming to go after your wife persistently but had the nerve to do it it your home. He is low of of low of scum. Your wife is no innocent bystander either. It is terrible what she did and their is a lot for her to explain to you for her actions. Give yourself time to come to terms to what happened, and i know your hurting, but you have a lot invested in this relationship and you can try and work through this , but it will take awhile to deal with this. Stay strong , feel what u feel it's part of the process of healing, no matter what or how you deal with it.


----------



## BrockLanders

Why do people continually parrot the phrase "while I don't condone violence" then continue on to condone violence. I condone violence when it's warranted, as in the OPs cade. What I don't condone is unjustified violence.


----------



## ThePheonix

WalterWhite420 said:


> She is (or was) a very amazing woman. Most single men would want her. And many married men too.
> 
> She is beautiful, sexy, engaging, humorous, strong, smart, etc. Most single men would dream about having her.


Just like hundreds of other women in your home town Dawg. Don't kid yourself. You don't have (had) one that's got something no other woman has got.


----------



## 10th Engineer Harrison

manticore said:


> WOW just WOW, I have so many things to comment and refute about your stataments.
> 
> but honestly I see no point in doing it, you will keep saying how he was disrespectful and how he wronged the women.
> 
> so I will just bring a old saying here "if you have nothing nice to say don't say anything at all".
> 
> *Users come here looking for advice, support and companionship.*
> 
> you have gave neither.
> 
> in the only two posts you have wrote here, you have only criticized, attacked, questioned his sensibility and imposed your self righteous ways over him.
> 
> If you feel that bad about the OP's actions (who in reality was just one action, sending the letter and after that he have done nothing regarding her STBXW), then I encourage you to look for other OP's threads whose actions and wolds vision are similar to yours.


Well, I'm a man and I think I understand what she meant by what she said. Think about it: Just telling people that he found them having sex in his bed should be enough information for even those largely lacking in imagination 2 pic2re the details sufficiently 2 get the point.

While I can accept that Walter might be a real person after all, some of this thread still reads like a penthouse letter 2 me.

-ol' 2long


----------



## mahike

Sorry you are here my friend. In some ways you are in a better spot then some of us BS' here and some ways you will have deeper scars.

Most of us when we come here are still trying to find out what when and how. You walked into the middle of it. Now the upside you were able to do what most of us wish we could have done. Beat the crap out of that POS,

She betrayed you at the deepest level, your home, your bed. She was acting out against you in some way. Why was she doing that? I think that is what is really tearing you apart. You might buy I was drunk, midlife crisis but doing it in your bed is a big FU.

You either have to let that go or you have to talk with her and find out the why.

I support the exposure but you have to stop wishing her pain and defeat. That is something else you need to let go. I know the hurt is deep.

IC is great but what other steps have you been taking to rebuild a life for yourself? Are you living with her things in the house that she betrayed you in? Are you trying to build new friendships?

I know this would be hard for you but it sounds like you really have to know the why. I would meet with her and really hash that out. Talk with your IC about that

Best of luck


----------



## manticore

BrockLanders said:


> Why do people continually parrot the phrase "while I don't condone violence" then continue on to condone violence. I condone violence when it's warranted, as in the OPs cade. *What I don't condone is unjustified violence.*


simply, because according to our laws and culture there is no such thing as justified violence (there are instances where violence is overlooked but never justified).

I will ask you, justified according to whom?

- old Testament.
- New Testament.
- our culture.
- our laws.
- our world vision.

in some countries of the old Soviet Union still exist the blood law, where if someone kill a member of your family you can match up the score by killing a member of the killer's family (even a kid).

that is why people like me say "while I don't condone violence". I still agree that in certain situations violence is a understandable reaction, but is never a method.


----------



## kenmoore14217

WalterWhite420 said:


> Sir, I can only wish I had your strength...
> 
> Your decision and resolve can only serve as inspiration for others...thank you.


WW, you will now be my official speech writer!!


----------



## BashfulB

CouldItBeSo said:


> There is so much advocating of violence from many posters in this thread it's kind of disturbing.


Emotional and psychological violence is worse than physical. The emotional torture WW's wife is putting him through is fr worse than anything he did physically to the OM.


----------



## BashfulB

denisefire said:


> I feel for you I really do . I think this is a great step for you to let out and talk about your feelings . I have never experienced what you have been through. I know I would be hurting like no tomorrow . It is such a betrayal from someone you think the world of and would never do that to them . Although I don't condone violence, he had it coming to go after your wife persistently but had the nerve to do it it your home. He is low of of low of scum. Your wife is no innocent bystander either. It is terrible what she did and their is a lot for her to explain to you for her actions. Give yourself time to come to terms to what happened, and i know your hurting, but you have a lot invested in this relationship and you can try and work through this , but it will take awhile to deal with this. Stay strong , feel what u feel it's part of the process of healing, no matter what or how you deal with it.


I would say his wife is worse than the OM. The OM didn't care where he banged her. It could have been in a motel, a public restroom, in an alley. It would have made no difference to him. 

The wife CHOSE the marital bed to screw this guy. That to me shows at the very least an inconscious anger and spite towards her husband. Or, she is just so morally vacant and without any vestige of scruples whatsoever that she did not consider what she was doing.


----------



## WalterWhite420

LongWalk said:


> Hopefulgirl's post is completely legitimate. It is an opinion. She has a right to one. Walter surely came to hear differing views, not a chorus of parrots.
> 
> In this day and age graphic details about sex are not so shocking anymore. Was revenge part of the motive? Perhaps there was a bit of payback in the email. But it was factual.
> 
> Walter,
> 
> Are you sorry that you did not have children?
> 
> Do you think that your (mutual) decision not have them contributed to your WW's mindset, i.e., the purpose of sex was pleasure, not reproduction.
> 
> Would you be curious to know what your wife thinks about this now? Does she wish that she had a child to remember you by?
> 
> Does she believe that if you had had a child she would have had a better chance of getting you back?
> 
> Does she fantasize about having a child now?
> 
> Would she have been a good mother?
> 
> Your reaction to catching that guy and dishing out a licking to him was instinctive. You did what our genes have programmed us to do but society forbids. In fact, it is so forbidden that some readers believed you were a provocative fabulist. Your WW was clearly impressed by your behavior at the liminal level. If you had not confronted but snuck out and complained later after he had left, maybe she would not be so attracted to you today. Your thoughts?
> 
> You have no children. You can look forward to having new relationships.
> 
> Your WW may love you a lot. She may be trying to fix her reputation. It may be some combination of the two. That is her problem now.
> 
> Your love for her will die out but it will take time.


I'm OK with not having children.

My wife would have been a good mother, but her heart wasn't in it. We're both "Type A" personalities. There is no ceiling, only ladders. There's no destination, only a journey. Having both parents like this would probably not have been good for children.

Don't get me wrong. I would like to one day feel like I have "arrived", or "accomplished enough to just relax". But it's just not in my nature. Nor my wife's.


----------



## WalterWhite420

LongWalk said:


> Hopefulgirl's post is completely legitimate. It is an opinion. She has a right to one. Walter surely came to hear differing views, not a chorus of parrots.


Yes, HopefulGirl made a good point. There were more adjectives and color in my "Letter to the Family" than I probably should have included. Sometimes (like last night) I feel perfectly OK with it. And sometimes (like today) I wish I had stuck to generalities.

But I don't regret telling everyone about her affair IN MY OWN BED.


----------



## BashfulB

WalterWhite420 said:


> Yes, HopefulGirl made a good point. *There were more adjectives and color in my "Letter to the Family" than I probably should have included*. Sometimes (like last night) I feel perfectly OK with it. And sometimes (like today) I wish I had stuck to generalities.


Typical Type A overachiever.


----------



## WalterWhite420

I am currently living in our home. My wife is living in an apartment. She had movers come and move all her personal things to her apartment. I had our bed taken to the local dump.

As soon as our divorce is final, I will sell the house. At least that's my plan. I think I will receive the house in the settlement.

She is still trying to get me to R. I get texts and emails every day from her, but I never return them.

Someone in an earlier post said that I should try to get over being happy at the thought her pain. My IC said the same thing yesterday. He thinks that deep inside, it shows I have a need to punish her until I feel she has paid enough for me to want her back. He thinks I want to R with her. But I don't think so, and wouldn't even if it was true.

This morning was rough for me. And unexpectedly so. I had a good session with my IC yesterday, went out with friends for dinner and a show last night, and slept well. But today, bad images and good memories have clashed in my mind and have made me want to take a sleeping pill or just get drunk. 

I think this is what is referred to as "triggers"? Yes?


----------



## bandit.45

You're on the "emotion rollercoaster". It's very normal.


----------



## BetrayedDad

mahike said:


> You might buy I was drunk, midlife crisis but doing it in your bed is a big FU.


I said it in an earlier post but it's worth repeating. In most cases, this type of thing happens because the the WS doesn't love the BS anymore. That does not mean that she did it because she hated him. That's a subtle but important distinction.

The opposite of love is not hate but indifference.

She simply didn't care that it was their bed. It was just more comfortable than the couch or the floor. Just another piece of furniture. It only meant something to Walter because he still loved her in that moment.

This happened to me too so I've spent a lot of time dwelling on this. Is it disrespectful? Incredibly but I can guarantee she didn't think about Walter for one second while she did it. She didn't care. He didn't even exist in her mind.


----------



## happyman64

WalterWhite420 said:


> I'm OK with not having children.
> 
> My wife would have been a good mother, but her heart wasn't in it. We're both "Type A" personalities. There is no ceiling, only ladders. There's no destination, only a journey. Having both parents like this would probably not have been good for children.
> 
> Don't get me wrong. I would like to one day feel like I have "arrived", or "accomplished enough to just relax". But it's just not in my nature. Nor my wife's.


Uh No Walter.

Type "A" women that cheat do not make good mothers.

They sometimes only think of themselves. Like cheating on their husbands. Because as you can see the fallout of affairs extends to the rest of the family.

Be grateful that you had no children in this mess.

And I will keep being brutally honest until you have your "Type A" wife off that pedestal and you see her for who she truly is.

She might be a good person that made a terrible choice. But a one year physical affair that ended in your own bed is a series of very bad choices.

Remember Walter, it is ok to still love her. It is ok to someday forgive her.

The main issue is forgetting what she has done and that will never happen. Though the pain will dull over time and you will feel good again.

Keep moving forward.

HM


----------



## happyman64

BetrayedDad said:


> I said it in an earlier post but it's worth repeating. In most cases, this type of thing happens because the the WS doesn't love the BS anymore. That does not mean that she did it because she hated him. That's a subtle but important distinction.
> 
> The opposite of love is not hate but indifference.
> 
> She simply didn't care that it was their bed. It was just more comfortable than the couch or the floor. Just another piece of furniture. It only meant something to Walter because he still loved her in that moment.
> 
> This happened to me too so I've spent a lot of time dwelling on this. Is it disrespectful? Incredibly but I can guarantee she didn't think about Walter for one second while she did it. She didn't care. He didn't even exist in her mind.


:iagree:

BD is right on the money. Walter was not even on his wife's mind at the time.

And if she is as "Type A" as Walter says she is then she is probably driving herself insane right now with Walter's non-responsiveness.

And Walter I totally agree with your therapist that you might secretly want o reconcile with your wife.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with feeling like that.

But I do think you owe it to both yourselves to stay separate, stay dark and let your emotions balance themselves.

IMO only until you can forgive her affair and put the punishment aside can you even begin to contemplate what you want out of life.

HM


----------



## 12345Person

Always remember, Walter, you're young enough to start a family with another woman who's in her 30s.

Remember that. You've lived this long without any children. Keep in mind that even thought what your wife did is horrible, you've got new doors open for you.

Look on the bright side, too.


----------



## LongWalk

Type A personality – so she has set a goal of R and Walter has set a goal of punishment?

Walter, when she has managed to see you she presumably cries and begs. How does that make you feel? Who among your friends and family still dares to raise her cause with you?


----------



## browneyes74

It took me a while before I really, truly didn't want to reconcile either.. I think that's normal if you have a strong sense of loyalty and love.. Our marriage had problems, but he was my family.. He didn't want to work on them, and then he fooled around.. 

And I get it.. My ex fooled around with my friend on my couch.. while I slept down the hall with my daughter.. 

that couch is now on my burn pile waiting for warmer weather for a big bonfire


----------



## WalterWhite420

happyman64 said:


> And if she is as "Type A" as Walter says she is then she is probably driving herself insane right now with Walter's non-responsiveness.


I think you nailed that one. She isn't one to take rejection lightly.



happyman64 said:


> And Walter I totally agree with your therapist that you might secretly want to reconcile with your wife.
> There is absolutely nothing wrong with feeling like that.


After all the knowledgeable people I've heard say that (my IC and several people on this web site), I'm starting to believe it. But I'm resolved to never let it happen.


----------



## WalterWhite420

browneyes74 said:


> It took me a while before I really, truly didn't want to reconcile either.. I think that's normal if you have a strong sense of loyalty and love.. Our marriage had problems, but he was my family.. He didn't want to work on them, and then he fooled around..
> 
> And I get it.. My ex fooled around with my friend on my couch.. while I slept down the hall with my daughter..
> 
> that couch is now on my burn pile waiting for warmer weather for a big bonfire


I hauled my wife's "adultery bed" to the local dump. We slept together in that bed almost every night for many years.


----------



## WalterWhite420

LongWalk said:


> Type A personality – so she has set a goal of R and Walter has set a goal of punishment?
> 
> Walter, when she has managed to see you she presumably cries and begs. How does that make you feel? Who among your friends and family still dares to raise her cause with you?


Honestly, when I see her cry and beg, it makes me feel 2 things simultaneously:

1. Joy, happiness, relief, a sense of revenge.

2. The desire to hold her again, pre-affair.

I think I'm learning more and more from you all how to be honest with myself. My therapist said I would. The truth is I don't hate her. I love her.

But that being said, I will never R.


----------



## WalterWhite420

Anonymous Person said:


> Always remember, Walter, you're young enough to start a family with another woman who's in her 30s.
> 
> Remember that. You've lived this long without any children. Keep in mind that even thought what your wife did is horrible, you've got new doors open for you.
> 
> Look on the bright side, too.


Yes, I'm actually looking forward to sampling the offerings of today once I get past the D.


----------



## arbitrator

WalterWhite420 said:


> Honestly, when I see her cry and beg, it makes me feel 2 things simultaneously:
> 
> 1. Joy, happiness, relief, a sense of revenge.
> 
> 2. The desire to hold her again, pre-affair.
> 
> I think I'm learning more and more from you all how to be honest with myself. My therapist said I would. The truth is I don't hate her. I love her.
> 
> But that being said, I will never R.


*Walt: Just always resist the temptation to go to Feeling No. 2. It would be a most lethal one on your part!*


----------



## WalterWhite420

arbitrator said:


> *Walt: Just always resist the temptation to go to Feeling No. 2. It would be a most lethal one on your part!*


Thank you sir. I agree.


----------



## Will_Kane

WalterWhite420 said:


> Thank you sir. I agree.


I always assume the posters here want to reconcile. Divorce is easy, not much advice is needed from an internet forum, you just go see a lawyer and follow the advice and you're done.

In your case, you were directed to post here by your counselor.

The problem with reconciling is that you have to reconcile how your wife could go from point A, what she did a few days/weeks/months ago with other man, to point B, still being "in love" with you and totally committed to you now. The people who are able to reconcile successfully are able to go from point A to point B in their minds, not necessarily to forgive and forget, but to understand why it happened, to get a feeling that the situation that allowed it to happen can be fixed, and to feel strongly enough to want to suffer the pain associated with the fixing. Many will tell you they are willing to attempt it for kids.

Anyway, why do you think your counselor directed you to this website? My guess is that it is a way for you to hear many different viewpoints, so that you can feel more comfortable with whatever decision you ultimately make.


----------



## manticore

WalterWhite420 said:


> I think I'm learning more and more from you all how to be honest with myself. My therapist said I would. The truth is I don't hate her. I love her.
> 
> But that being said, I will never R.


Nothing wrong with those feelings, you may love her but if you honestly realize that reconcilation is not for you then you are saving the both of you from a period of misery and pain that in the end will even made impossible to have a civil relationship, there are many people here that feels like you do, for example "Healer"



Healer said:


> But please realize - if you can't do it - if you find out you don't WANT to do it, that's OK - that's just fine.
> 
> I knew I had to try and save my family - and I did my very, very best. But in the end, I realized if I was miserable, constantly in pain and angry, that was no life for my kids. Now that we are divorcing - of course it's hard on the kids. But, and this comes from family, friends, colleagues....my kids are happier and healthier than they have ever been - and that's because I am, too. The 3 of us are thriving.
> 
> So, if you learn that it just isn't in you to R, you'll at least know you did your very best to make it work, and that it isn't on you -this was her choice.



he knew form the beginning that Cheating was a deal breaker to him, but still went against his nature for the love he have towards his wife but most important for his kids, but still he was not able to do it.

I really think reconcilation has to be done because the BS feels that the happines, good times and joy that the WS will bring in to his/her life will overcome the pain they caused, *but if the WS is unremorseful or the BS simply realize that he/she will never overcome the betrayal, the the more healthy for all the family and them is separation *


----------



## LongWalk

There are some threads similar to yours. 

Flood, the fireman who had sex with his WW after she invited him to dinner. TheFlood
The guy who wrote the car metaphor and works in the oil fields.
The farmer who reconciled with WW Sweetie after two years and then got out.

The desire to punish and reconcile seem tied together.

I will look for the links.


----------



## bfree

Almost everyone that divorces still loves their spouse in one form or another. But love isn't enough to sustain a relationship. You must also have trust and respect. Don't beat yourself up if you still love her but realize that you are following the correct course for you.


----------



## WalterWhite420

Will_Kane said:


> Anyway, why do you think your counselor directed you to this website? My guess is that it is a way for you to hear many different viewpoints, so that you can feel more comfortable with whatever decision you ultimately make.


He as much as said just that.


----------



## LongWalk

Hard_to_Detach has a good thread, long but he ended up reconciling.

Rookie was followed by many. Very interesting character.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

hopefulgirl said:


> Wow. KIND of a shock?
> 
> No, HER PARENTS and adult nieces didn't have to know about "her having her legs wrapped around another man who was pumping her in my bed, and moaning in pleasure from it." This borders on pornographic. It went too far. I'm a betrayed spouse, and what happened to me broke my heart, but even I don't see the need to shock all these people like that with those details. I would be annoyed if I received a letter like this from anybody in my family - even if it WAS "the truth." It's disgusting. Men may talk like this with each other, but believe me, a lot of women find this crude and gross and to open a letter like this would be actually upsetting to them. Do you even care about THEM?
> 
> Just because something is "the truth" doesn't mean everyone has to know it! When YOU had sex with your wife, did you write a letter about the details to all those people with "the truth" in it?
> 
> "Exposure" is supposed to be about putting a stop to an affair, not to get revenge, which is clearly what you're more interested in. Revenge may be sweet, but mostly in fantasy. In real life, it tends to turn bitter very soon, and it can poison the person who pursues it with too much fervor.
> 
> You do know what happened to Walter White, don't you?
> 
> I hope you never did anything bad in your life. Because you wouldn't want someone writing a letter about "the truth" and sending it to a lot of people and embarrassing you, would you? If I were you, I'd apologize to the people to whom you sent that letter (especially the women). You were seeking revenge and you didn't think first before you acted.


Hopeful:

I think you can imagine being humiliated, since your are a B S yourself. I understand how he feels, I think, because of blatency of act etc. Everyone has their limit in terms of being treated so badly or embarrassed or betrayed so badly that striking back is almost a necessity. I think he wanted to get some payback by humiliating her as much as she did him......or come close

...sounds like he succeeded. He may have burned some bridges with family as a consequence but he might think it was worth the cost.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

LongWalk said:


> Hopefulgirl's post is completely legitimate. It is an opinion. She has a right to one. Walter surely came to hear differing views, not a chorus of parrots.
> 
> In this day and age graphic details about sex are not so shocking anymore. Was revenge part of the motive? Perhaps there was a bit of payback in the email. But it was factual.
> 
> Walter,
> 
> Are you sorry that you did not have children?
> 
> Do you think that your (mutual) decision not have them contributed to your WW's mindset, i.e., the purpose of sex was pleasure, not reproduction.
> 
> Would you be curious to know what your wife thinks about this now? Does she wish that she had a child to remember you by?
> 
> Does she believe that if you had had a child she would have had a better chance of getting you back?
> 
> Does she fantasize about having a child now?
> 
> Would she have been a good mother?
> 
> Your reaction to catching that guy and dishing out a licking to him was instinctive. You did what our genes have programmed us to do but society forbids. In fact, it is so forbidden that some readers believed you were a provocative fabulist. Your WW was clearly impressed by your behavior at the liminal level. If you had not confronted but snuck out and complained later after he had left, maybe she would not be so attracted to you today. Your thoughts?
> 
> You have no children. You can look forward to having new relationships.
> 
> Your WW may love you a lot. She may be trying to fix her reputation. It may be some combination of the two. That is her problem now.
> 
> Your love for her will die out but it will take time.


IMO it is not possible that his wife 'loves him a lot' while at the same time doing what she did.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

I also would like to defend H girl at least to this extent -- which is that she wasn't condemning the act of revenge as she was expressing concern for the feelings of the innocent family members (though one should NOT presume such graphics are more upsetting to men than women).

....and sometimes understating something can cut much deeper than otherwise........simply 'i walked into our bedroom to discover her having sexual intercourse in our bed with another man' does not lack for power


----------



## LongWalk

And this one


----------



## WalterWhite420

Well, I had a great New Year's Eve/Day.

I met friends at a nice sports bar last nite to eat, watch football, and welcome in the new year. Had a great steak and a few beers, but didn't get drunk. About 11:30PM, I met a very attractive lady about my age. We had good conversation for about 2 hours. She has been D for about a year (her husband cheated), and she's just now wanting to date again. I told her about my pending divorce. We had a lot in common.

Anyway, about 1:30AM, she invited me to her condo for a drink. I said I would love to, but once again made sure she knew I was still technically married. She was fine with that because I had filed for divorce, and we left. Since my house was way closer than her condo, we went to my house and spent the night.

I had been serious about waiting until my D was final before being physical with another woman, but there was no way I could resist that. I was starved, if you know what I mean.

It was great. And it was great again this afternoon when we woke up.

I feel so revitalized. Free. Exhilarated.

But also, a bit guilty. And I don't know why. I guess because for half my life, I could never imagine sleeping with a woman other than my wife. But I'll get over it.

She (other woman) and I are having dinner again tomorrow night. I can't wait.

Wish me luck in not prematurely falling for the first woman I hook up with. I want to look long and hard before I get into another serious relationship.


----------



## just got it 55

Well Walter nothing *Breaking Bad* here if you are only having fun 

55


----------



## 12345Person

Playa play on...


----------



## Philat

WalterWhite420 said:


> Well, I had a great New Year's Eve/Day.
> 
> I met friends at a nice sports bar last nite to eat, watch football, and welcome in the new year. Had a great steak and a few beers, but didn't get drunk. About 11:30PM, I met a very attractive lady about my age. We had good conversation for about 2 hours. She has been D for about a year (her husband cheated), and she's just now wanting to date again. I told her about my pending divorce. We had a lot in common.
> 
> Anyway, about 1:30AM, she invited me to her condo for a drink. I said I would love to, but once again made sure she knew I was still technically married. She was fine with that because I had filed for divorce, and we left. Since my house was way closer than her condo, we went to my house and spent the night.
> 
> I had been serious about waiting until my D was final before being physical with another woman, but there was no way I could resist that. I was starved, if you know what I mean.
> 
> It was great. And it was great again this afternoon when we woke up.
> 
> I feel so revitalized. Free. Exhilarated.
> 
> But also, a bit guilty. And I don't know why. I guess because for half my life, I could never imagine sleeping with a woman other than my wife. But I'll get over it.
> 
> She (other woman) and I are having dinner again tomorrow night. I can't wait.
> 
> Wish me luck in not prematurely falling for the first woman I hook up with. I want to look long and hard before I get into another serious relationship.


Congrats, WW, on this extremely timely and fortuitous occurrence.


----------



## happyman64

Walter

I understand the starving but just be careful......

Glad you had a good New Years Eve.

HM


----------



## aug

WalterWhite420 said:


> Well, I had a great New Year's Eve/Day.
> 
> I met friends at a nice sports bar last nite to eat, watch football, and welcome in the new year. Had a great steak and a few beers, but didn't get drunk. About 11:30PM, I met a very attractive lady about my age. We had good conversation for about 2 hours. She has been D for about a year *(her husband cheated)*, and she's just now wanting to date again. I told her about my pending divorce. We had a lot in common.



I wonder how many people looking for a hookup or so will admit to strangers that they were the cheater instead?


----------



## the guy

You had one hell of a year!

Glad you got laid last nite.

I checked out your thread in the beginning and saw all the troll slayers and figured you for history.....also glad you stuck around.

Its tough cuz a lot of good folks invest in helping outher who got phucked over by thier old ladies and when they find out its a troll thread they get pissed.

Often I see some really hurt people get labeled trolls ( maybe they are)....hell back in the day when I first came on board I would have been labeled a troll cuz all the crap I went thru. the crap my old did was unbelievable.

Back then 100 replies was a big thread, these days a 1,000 replies is typical and a lot more troll slayers.

Any way happy new year and heres to picking up some strange. One thing about picking up strange at a bar....you never know were it will lead you.
Point here is you my friend have a lot in front of you.

BTW. are you going to leak the fact that you picked up a chick on New years Eve? It might stop all the bull sh1t texting and calling from your STBXW?


----------



## WalterWhite420

happyman64 said:


> Walter
> 
> I understand the starving but just be careful......
> 
> Glad you had a good New Years Eve.
> 
> HM


She (my New Year's Eve hookup partner) just called me and told me some BS story about having to break our dinner date tomorrow night. And she didn't try to reschedule for another night. She didn't even say to call her.

In fact, when I asked her for the date (this afternoon), she was bit hesitant and said "sure, why not".

I think she's playing the F'em F'em F'em game.

In a way, that's good for me. I could have fallen for her pretty quickly, and I don't need that right now.


----------



## the guy

aug said:


> I wonder how many people looking for a hookup or so will admit to strangers that they were the cheater instead?


Good point, I think OP is a smart guy and knows this rebound stuff is just that....a rebound.

Hell I would think that playing the field is half the fun....why get stuck with having to answer to a chick again when right now is not the time to settle down again.

I would thinks it time to start a rotation


----------



## WalterWhite420

the guy said:


> You had one hell of a year!
> 
> Glad you got laid last nite.
> 
> I checked out your thread in the beginning and saw all the troll slayers and figured you for history.....also glad you stuck around.
> 
> Its tough cuz a lot of good folks invest in helping outher who got phucked over by thier old ladies and when they find out its a troll thread they get pissed.
> 
> Often I see some really hurt people get labeled trolls ( maybe they are)....hell back in the day when I first came on board I would have been labeled a troll cuz all the crap I went thru. the crap my old did was unbelievable.
> 
> Back then 100 replies was a big thread, these days a 1,000 replies is typical and a lot more troll slayers.
> 
> Any way happy new year and heres to picking up some strange. One thing about picking up strange at a bar....you never know were it will lead you.
> Point here is you my friend have a lot in front of you.
> 
> BTW. are you going to leak the fact that you picked up a chick on New years Eve? It might stop all the bull sh1t texting and calling from your STBXW?


Yeah, reading back over my story, I can see why some were on troll alert. 

Good point about leaking my hookup. I should tell my cousins (my wife's best friends).


----------



## the guy

WalterWhite420 said:


> She just called me and told me some BS story about having to break our dinner date tomorrow night. And she didn't try to reschedule for another night. She didn't even say to call her.
> 
> In fact, when I asked her for the date (this afternoon), she was bit hesitant and said "sure, why not".
> 
> I think she's playing the F'em F'em F'em game.
> 
> In a way, that's good for me. I could have fallen for her pretty quickly, and I don't need that right now.


You scored some strange chick at a bar and banged her that night....were did you think it was going to lead to?

My advice...only ask for a second date when they don't sleep with you the first night.

If you ask me, I think you dodged a bullit.


----------



## bandit.45

Nice going. 

Where did your STBXW spend New Years?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WalterWhite420

the guy said:


> You scored some strange chick at a bar and banged her that night....were did you think it was going to lead to?
> 
> My advice...only ask for a second date when they don't sleep with you the first night.
> 
> If you ask me, I think you dodged a bullit.


Prolly so.

I should not have hooked up anyway. At the present, I'm way too vulnerable to unhealthy emotional attachments. I'm kind of ashamed of myself, to be honest. I had promised myself I wouldn't get involved with another woman till my D is final. I'll do better at keeping my guard up.


----------



## WalterWhite420

bandit.45 said:


> Nice going.
> 
> Where did your STBXW spend New Years?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't know. If I had agreed to her many invitations, she would have spent New Year's with me. But I never answer her texts or emails.


----------



## Singledude21

I don't want to sound like an a-hole OP, but if I were you, I'd rub this so hard into your wife's face. Maybe slip it to someone you both know that you have plans with someone in the near future or something so that it will find its way to her.

Not like a petty way to say you had sex, but to show her you have the ability to move on without her. Eats cheaters up alive knowing you truly know how to walk away when they planned on making you give them a second chance. And it will make that urge to punish her you have feel oh so good. :smthumbup:


----------



## 6301

WalterWhite420 said:


> Wish me luck in not prematurely falling for the first woman I hook up with. I want to look long and hard before I get into another serious relationship.


 Can't get any closer look than the look you had last night and just to make sure you had to look real close again. See anything the second time that you missed the first time around?


----------



## WalterWhite420

Singledude21 said:


> I don't want to sound like an a-hole OP, but if I were you, I'd rub this so hard into your wife's face. Maybe slip it to someone you both know that you have plans with someone in the near future or something so that it will find its way to her.
> 
> Not like a petty way to say you had sex, but to show her you have the ability to move on without her. Eats cheaters up alive knowing you truly know how to walk away when they planned on making you give them a second chance. And it will make that urge to punish her you have feel oh so good. :smthumbup:


OK. I think I'll somehow make sure my cousins (her best friends) find out.


----------



## Singledude21

WalterWhite420 said:


> OK. I think I'll somehow make sure my cousins (her best friends) find out.


No need to get explicit and brag on how you had sex. Just mention you've found someone to hang out and have a good time with. The wife should know what that means. Especially since your cousins are her best friends, she's definitely asking them what you're up to.


----------



## happyman64

I would just say you had an acquaintance over for New Years and made your own fireworks.

Enough said.

And Walter be grateful she cancelled dinner. She did you a favor.

Now you know chicks still dig you.
Now you know you can make a lady smile in the sack.

Now take the time to truly figure out what you really want.

Time is on your side.

HM


----------



## WalterWhite420

Just got a text from my W that said:

"Please let me come to the house tomorrow and give me 2 hours to talk with you. That's all I ask. Please, just talk to me for 2 hours. Can't we just talk? I want to make this all up to you. Just give me a chance."

It feels good ignoring her, but I just had to answer this one text from her.

My response: No.


----------



## WalterWhite420

happyman64 said:


> I would just say you had an acquaintance over for New Years and made your own fireworks.
> 
> Enough said.
> 
> And Walter be grateful she cancelled dinner. She did you a favor.
> 
> Now you know chicks still dig you.
> Now you know you can make a lady smile in the sack.
> 
> Now take the time to truly figure out what you really want.
> 
> Time is on your side.
> 
> HM


Yes, thank you. I have a lot of time to find a really good woman.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

WalterWhite420 said:


> Well, as suggested by my IC, I'm posting my story here to try and cope and heal...
> 
> I've lurked here for many weeks, trying to get the courage to write about this...
> 
> This is so very difficult for me. The steamy details I've learned, and the horrid images in my mind, won't let me rest or even have hope...
> 
> Here goes...
> 
> My wife and I met in college, began dating and of course had regular sex, and fell very deeply in love. We married about a year after we graduated. We've now been married for 19 years. We have no children (a mutual choice), we both have good careers, and until a year ago I thought she and I were just so lucky to have married our soul mate on our first try...
> 
> But about a year ago I came home early from work due to sickness, and saw a strange car parked on the road in front of our house. I thought nothing of it and went inside, and heard strange sounds coming from our bedroom. I entered our bedroom and saw a horrible sight; a strange man on top of my wife, with her legs WRAPPED AROUND HIM, and him going to town like a Singer sewing machine...and her moaning in pleasure.
> 
> I'm a somewhat big/strong man, and I pulled him off her and beat the living **** out of him. I carried him outside (he was still naked) and dumped him in the street. He got in his car and drove away. Later I found out that he went to the hospital that night with a broken nose and jaw. Which proves that some tragedies have a small silver lining.
> 
> Anyway, my wife swore to me that it was a "first". Her lover was a co-worker than had pursued her relentlessly for years, and she finally gave in after a night of bar-hopping together while I was away tending to my sick mother. The affair continued for about a year until my above-described D Day.
> 
> After I beat the **** out of him, I told her to leave. Of course she pleaded and begged, swore that it "meant nothing", and pledged her love and committment to me. I didn't buy it.
> 
> Anyway, she left and we didn't talk for 2 weeks, mainly because I didn't answer her phone calls or emails.
> 
> More later. This is as much as I can bear to write now. I'm about to lose it again just recounting these details.


Walter:
Asking this simply because I am curious. Before discovering your wife and her lover did you have any suspicions at ANY point during your marriage that she was unfaithful, or any thought that she was capable of something like this? Some B H say they never thought their wife would cheat - just wondering if that is ever really true. Or e.g. if there were signs they just could not process, some odd behavior the betrayed could understand only in hindsight etc.


----------



## Singledude21

WalterWhite420 said:


> Just got a text from my W that said:
> 
> "Please let me come to the house tomorrow and give me 2 hours to talk with you. That's all I ask. Please, just talk to me for 2 hours. Can't we just talk? I want to make this all up to you. Just give me a chance."
> 
> It feels good ignoring her, but I just had to answer this one text from her.
> 
> My response: No.


I'd give her the opportunity, but not to your face. Tell her to write it up or send a voicemail explaining what she has to explain. And that she shouldn't expect a response.


----------



## happyman64

Walter

Has your STBXW ever shown up at the house or your workplace unannounced?

HM


----------



## WalterWhite420

nuclearnightmare said:


> Walter:
> Asking this simply because I am curious. Before discovering your wife and her lover did you have any suspicions at ANY point during your marriage that she was unfaithful, or any thought that she was capable of something like this? Some B H say they never thought their wife would cheat - just wondering if that is ever really true. Or e.g. if there were signs they just could not process, some odd behavior the betrayed could understand only in hindsight etc.


Honestly, we were both SO BUSY with our careers, and loved being together otherwise, I never suspected a thing. We're both Biochemists, working on IR&D projects for different (non-competing) pharmaceutical companies. I didn't think either of us had time for an affair. Of course now, I see the signs. Her sudden "overtime" requirements at work. Her dwindling desire for sex. Her getting dolled up to go "grocery shopping". Her increased hours on FB.

I was too dumb to put 2 and 2 together, which is why I got the shock of my life on Feb 23, 2013 at about 1:30PM.


----------



## WalterWhite420

happyman64 said:


> Walter
> 
> Has your STBXW ever shown up at the house or your workplace unannounced?
> 
> HM


She has showed up at my (our) house unannounced since our separation, but since it's still technically her house too, I can't really do anything about it. She's not been loud or combative in any way. She just wanted to talk, and left quietly when I refused.

She's never showed up at my work since our separation.


----------



## happyman64

WalterWhite420 said:


> She has showed up at my (our) house unannounced since our separation, but since it's still technically her house too, I can't really do anything about it. She's not been loud or combative in any way. She just wanted to talk, and left quietly when I refused.
> 
> She's never showed up at my work since our separation.


Ok. She is very smart and does not corner you.

What a shame she was so stupid regarding you and the marriage.

I think "no" was loud and clear.

When will the divorce be final?


----------



## WalterWhite420

happyman64 said:


> Ok. She is very smart and does not corner you.
> 
> What a shame she was so stupid regarding you and the marriage.
> 
> I think "no" was loud and clear.
> 
> When will the divorce be final?


The divorce will be final in early February, if she doesn't decide to contest it. Which she has mentioned once as a semi-veiled threat if I don't give her a chance to talk face-to-face and apologize to me.


----------



## Singledude21

Sounds like you might luck up and scored a truly remorseful WS compared to the ones who act vengeful or even down right don't care.

My advice to you would be to continue and make the divorce final. Then give it a year or two. If she still is wanting you back, THEN you could think about giving it a shot.

You sound like someone like me, who just doesn't give second chances. The beauty in this though is that if you did start dating her again, its technically not a second chance and you're starting a new relationship. But it lets her know you have no problem cutting the cord on her if she screws up compared to getting use to the fact she is confident you'll forgive and forget.


----------



## LongWalk

The OM, was he a biochemist, too? Interesting that he did not go to the police to make a complaint against you.

My uncle was a biophysicist. He cheated with colleague and my aunt divorced him. She was a professor in the humanities. Having a graduate degree doesn't seem to change human behavior that much.

Dday was in February. That was quite some time ago. Basically you have not seen her for 10 months. How long does your therapist think it will take to detach completely?


----------



## WalterWhite420

LongWalk said:


> The OM, was he a biochemist, too? Interesting that he did not go to the police to make a complaint against you.
> 
> My uncle was a biophysicist. He cheated with colleague and my aunt divorced him. She was a professor in the humanities. Having a graduate degree doesn't seem to change human behavior that much.
> 
> Dday was in February. That was quite some time ago. Basically you have not seen her for 10 months. How long does your therapist think it will take to detach completely?


The OM was director of security at my wife's company, and had just gotten a position in some sort of security job at a defense contractor.

My therapist thinks I detatched quickly at first, but slower of late. I've seen her a few times over the months, as we've talked about divorce settlement. And lately it's been very hard to see her, because as much as I hate her for what she did, I sure hate to see her walk away after our talks. I want to reach the point soon where I'm glad to see her walk away.

My therapist thinks the reason I refuse to allow her into our house to talk is because I'm subconsciously afraid that I would melt, have sex with her, and fall for her all over again.


----------



## manticore

WalterWhite420 said:


> My therapist thinks the reason I refuse to allow her into our house to talk is because I'm subconsciously afraid that I would melt, have sex with her, and fall for her all over again.


you can bet that if you allow it, that will happen, and you can bet that your wife is in fact looking for that to happen, is up to you really, we have some users who have continued having sexual relationships with their WS during and after the divorce but still are totally againts reaconcilation (as the Flood and missthelove2013)

but if your finality is total detachment form her, then of course is a bad idea,


----------



## WalterWhite420

LongWalk said:


> The OM, was he a biochemist, too? Interesting that he did not go to the police to make a complaint against you.


He had just gotten a very prominent position in security at a major defense contractor, and was still within his 90-day probationary period, and was trying to get a very high level security clearance. I think he just didn't want the bad publicity. But they fired him anyway.


----------



## happyman64

> if I don't give her a chance to talk face-to-face and apologize to me.


So are you ready to do this? Do you even want to give her a chance to do this?



> My therapist thinks the reason I refuse to allow her into our house to talk is because I'm subconsciously afraid that I would melt, have sex with her, and fall for her all over again.


Is your therapist right? 

After 10 months will you fold and will you fall for your wife again?

Or are you ready to face her, listen to her and then decide what is best for you!

HM


----------



## Singledude21

WalterWhite420 said:


> My therapist thinks the reason I refuse to allow her into our house to talk is because I'm subconsciously afraid that I would melt, have sex with her, and fall for her all over again.


Can't blame the therapist. We can act all tough and all strong we want.

Nothing prepares you for the sight of your ex with her clothes off sobbing a storm about how she misses you, begging for your penis like crack and rubbing your crotch at the same time. Not many can so no to that. Especially if your body decides to be a jerk and be at maximum horn dog levels.

So I agree with Manticore, if you can't have sex without keeping your feelings in check, best not to do it.


----------



## WalterWhite420

manticore said:


> you can bet that if you allow it, that will happen, and you can bet that your wife is in fact looking for that to happen, is up to you really, we have some users who have continued having sexual relationships with their WS during and after the divorce but still are totally againts reaconcilation (as the Flood and missthelove2013)
> 
> but if your finality is total detachment form her, then of course is a bad idea,


Well, I could see it happening. I love her and hate her and love her all at the same time. Love hate love. Waves and waves of love hate love.

Or is it hate love hate? The ***** deserves hate love hate. That's for sure.


----------



## WalterWhite420

Singledude21 said:


> Can't blame the therapist. We can act all tough and all strong we want.
> 
> Nothing prepares you for the sight of your ex with her clothes off sobbing a storm about how she misses you, begging for your penis like crack and rubbing your crotch at the same time. Not many can so no to that. Especially if your body decides to be a jerk and be at maximum horn dog levels.
> 
> So I agree with Manticore, if you can't have sex without keeping your feelings in check, best not to do it.


Yeah, every time I take a big step forward, it seems the following day I take a small step back.

But I will never R with her.


----------



## WalterWhite420

Singledude21 said:


> Sounds like you might luck up and scored a truly remorseful WS compared to the ones who act vengeful or even down right don't care.
> 
> My advice to you would be to continue and make the divorce final. Then give it a year or two. If she still is wanting you back, THEN you could think about giving it a shot.
> 
> You sound like someone like me, who just doesn't give second chances. The beauty in this though is that if you did start dating her again, its technically not a second chance and you're starting a new relationship. But it lets her know you have no problem cutting the cord on her if she screws up compared to getting use to the fact she is confident you'll forgive and forget.


Yeah, I'm not one to give 2nd chances...which is why I've been able to hold out against my wife's many and sometimes sexy attempts to get me back...I won't give in, but I'll sure have to keep up my guard...


----------



## WalterWhite420

happyman64 said:


> So are you ready to do this? Do you even want to give her a chance to do this?
> 
> Is your therapist right?
> 
> After 10 months will you fold and will you fall for your wife again?
> 
> Or are you ready to face her, listen to her and then decide what is best for you!
> 
> HM


I want to separate myself from her forever and ever and ever...in my mind...but in my heart, I still love her and want her so bad...forgive me I've had some wine and herb...


----------



## LongWalk

Is she fundamentally a good person?

You must have taken a biology courses in college were evolution and reproductive strategy came up. I remember the lecturers biology all enjoyed pointing out all the behavioral patterns that made a mockery of our desire to believe that we escape the expression of our selfish genes.

On TAM there is always talk about the _fog_, which in many contexts means the loss of rationality due to alterations in brain chemistry from sex. Sometimes posters will even suggest having sex as much as possible with a WW to exploit the pharmacologcial potency of semen to reestablish an emotional connection. In other words a BH can use natural biological means to compete.

(Below there follows a passage from Yahoo discussing love as a chemically induced state, which may be interesting reading)

It is not unreasonable to think that our brains are hard wired to love someone with whom we have bonded for a long period of time. One night stands and new other relations probaby help to ease the pain. But Oneitis can take a long time to cure. Some TAM BS linger for two years.

The brain chemistry of sex:



> Hi Karl! This might not be ALL of the chemicals involved in sex (including orgasm) and love/romance, as well chemicals released in semen during ejaculation (some of which absorb into the woman's body and enter the bloodstream) but it's some of them at least. Dopamine, oxytocin, vasopressin, phenylethylamine, adrenaline, endorphins (including enkephalins), serotonin, norepinephrine, prolactin, testosterone, estrogen (comes in 3 forms), progesterone, corticosterone (not sure about this one), nitric oxide (NO), pheremones, neutrophins, luteinizing hormone, androstenedione (precursor to male and female sex hormones), Tyrosine (precursor to dopamine and norepinephrine), pheromones (some mentioned such as testosterone), follicle stimulating hormone, cortisol, prostaglandins, thyrotropin-releasing hormones, melatonin, relaxin, cytokines, placental proteins, including human chorionic gonadotrophin (hcg) and human placental lactogen are all involved. I left out some sex hormones. You can search wikipedia for a list of those (some are above, some aren't), Sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) binds to some sex hormones, rendering them unusable.  Not much of a fun thing is it (SHBG)?
> 
> Anyway, I wrote a big thing in response to this, but I can't post it all. It's too long. If you want more info. on these things ask and I'll post it. I tell you what, I'll post a bit, anyway, just because, otherwise, it's boring.
> 
> Some of the major ones are dopamine, serotonin, oxytocin, vasopressin, phenylethylamine, adrenaline, endorphins (including enkephalins), norepinephrine, testosterone and estrogen. I won't be as detailed as I was when I first tried to write a reply because it was SO long, but here are some little tidbits.
> 
> Dopamine is a neurotransmiter that deals with pleasurable feelings and leaves you feeling blissful. It's also associated with the reward centers of the brain. It is also associated with craving, desire, motivation, goal oriented behavior, attentive focus, and addiction. It's also involved with sexual desire, as well. So it makes you feel blissful around a person, attracted to them, and a bit addicted to them. Just seeing a photo of your new love could cause a surge in dopamine related brain activity.
> 
> Serotonin goes down during new, passionate love. People in the attraction stage of love have serotonin levels similar to people with obsessive compulsive disorder which might explain why some new lovers obsess over one another. Serotonin is released during orgasm, however, which could have an anti-depressant affect on people, leaving them happier, more optimistic, and more satisfied after sex.
> 
> Oxytocin is a bonding hormone, and so is vasopressin. Oxytocin causes people to form bonds and long term attachments. It also causes affectionate feelings for another person, increases trust, makes you see people in a more positive light, etc. On a more sexual note, it helps with contractions which are involved in orgasm, helps stimulate the prostate, and helps increase never sensitivity, so it might be responsible for more, easier, or/and better orgasms. Oxytocin is also released during orgasm, possibly causing lovers to bond more. Women have higher baseline levels of oxytocin, have more oxytocin receptors in their brains, I believe they release more during sex, and to they have higher estrogen levels- that is relevant because oxytocin needs estrogen to work, so it might work better with more estrogen. Eye gazing, cuddling, touching in general, sex and orgasm all make oxytocin go up. In men, kissing also elevates it. Vasopressin and oxytocin are in both genders, but it is believed that oxytocin might have greater affects in women and vasopressin in men. Men also release vasopressin during orgasm. Vasopressin is related to monogamy, pair bonding, and attachment in non-human animals and is believed to have a similar function in humans.
> 
> Phenylethylamine has an anti-depressant affect and helps in the release of norepinephrine and dopamine, other love related hormones. It can increase heart rate and blood flow, and as a result of the latter, possibly sexual arousal and pleasure. Eye contact can increase it, causing pupil dilation, when you see something that appeals to you. It is sometimes a sign of attraction.
> 
> Adrenaline makes you feel excited/exhilerated, and even nervous. It's the flight or fight response. In the early stages of fallin in love, your body's stress response kicks it up a bit, increasing blood levels of adrenaline and the stress hormone, cortisol. This might be somewhat responsible for the racing heart, and the butterflies in your stomach feeling of falling in love. Adrenaline also causes pupil dilation, increased heart and breath rate, and a decrease in hunger. Thanks to the increased heart rate and dilated arteries that come with adrenaline boosts, you get increased blood flow to your muscles, which is a plus during sex. Along with love, anger, fear, exercise (including sex) and other mental/physical stress can increase adrenaline. During sex, extra adrenaline is released from the adrenal glands. Adrenaline is one chemical responsible for the recovery period men need after sex before most of them can have another orgasm, according to an article I read on askmen.com. Another such chemical is prolactin.
> 
> Endorphins are feel good chemicals produced by the pituitary gland and the hypothalamus. They are natural pain killers and lower stress. They induce a general sense of well being, cause feelings of euphoria, and relaxation, etc. Some also increase confidence. Not only is it love related, it is released during orgasm. Laugher, physical contact, pain, exercise, excitement, eating spicy foods, and consuming chocolate can increase endorphin levels. They can be addictive and have a structure similar to morphine, but they're safe. Enkephalins are a type of endorphin. They bind to the body's opiod receptors. They might help out with orgasms, decrease anxiety, and also be a partial contributor to after sex feelings of sleepiness. Some believe they might help immune function. They are released in male semen and might absorb through vaginal walls.
> 
> Norepinephrine- Like adrenaline, this produces excitement and racing heart. It can make you feel infatuated and I think, focused on someone. High levels of dopamine are also associated with norepinephrine.
> 
> Testosterone- Male sex hormone, found in both genders, but to a much larger degree in males, though I believe women are more sensitive to lower levels of it. It has multiple purposes, but to name a couple, it is a big factor in both male and female sexual desire, and helps with clitoral engorgement and penile erections.
> 
> Estrogen- A female sex hormone found in both genders, but to a much larger degree in women of reproductive age. It helps the fertility cycle, helps with female lubrication (important for general and sexual comfort, as well as increases the pleasure of sex among other things), thickening of vaginal walls (also good for sexual pleasure), etc. And as I said earlier, it's needed for oxytocin to work as a bonding agent.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

WalterWhite420 said:


> Well, I could see it happening. I love her and hate her and love her all at the same time. Love hate love. Waves and waves of love hate love.
> 
> Or is it hate love hate? The ***** deserves hate love hate. That's for sure.


Do you think she's some sort of character-disordered person? AKA personality disorder? Self-entitled, lies easily, emotionally abusive or any of that bad stuff?


----------



## WalterWhite420

LongWalk said:


> Is she fundamentally a good person?
> 
> You must have taken a biology courses in college were evolution and reproductive strategy came up. I remember the lecturers biology all enjoyed pointing out all the behavioral patterns that made a mockery of our desire to believe that we escape the expression of our selfish genes.
> 
> On TAM there is always talk about the _fog_, which in many contexts means the loss of rationality due to alterations in brain chemistry from sex. Sometimes posters will even suggest having sex as much as possible with a WW to exploit the pharmacologcial potency of semen to reestablish an emotional connection. In other words a BH can use natural biological means to compete.
> 
> (Below there follows a passage from Yahoo discussing love as a chemically induced state, which may be interesting reading)
> 
> It is not unreasonable to think that our brains are hard wired to love someone with whom we have bonded for a long period of time. One night stands and new other relations probaby help to ease the pain. But Oneitis can take a long time to cure. Some TAM BS linger for two years.
> 
> The brain chemistry of sex:


Very interesting reading. Thanks!


----------



## WalterWhite420

nuclearnightmare said:


> Do you think she's some sort of character-disordered person? AKA personality disorder? Self-entitled, lies easily, emotionally abusive or any of that bad stuff?


Honestly, I don't. I do see her as a non-loyal POS and will never R with her, but she does have many great qualities.


----------



## LongWalk

Well, Walter, you have taught her value of loyalty. She will not forget how important it is to the male of our species.

Her ability to attract a new good LTR are not so great. She is not so far off from menopause. She has never had a child, so nobody wishing for children is going to be at all sure that she able.


----------



## aug

WalterWhite420 said:


> Honestly, we were both SO BUSY with our careers, and loved being together otherwise, I never suspected a thing. *We're both Biochemists*, working on IR&D projects for different (non-competing) pharmaceutical companies. I didn't think either of us had time for an affair. Of course now, I see the signs. Her sudden "overtime" requirements at work. Her dwindling desire for sex. Her getting dolled up to go "grocery shopping". Her increased hours on FB.
> 
> I was too dumb to put 2 and 2 together, which is why I got the shock of my life on Feb 23, 2013 at about 1:30PM.





WalterWhite420 said:


> The *OM was director of security at my wife's company*, and had just gotten a position in some sort of security job at a defense contractor.



biochemist

walter white

420


nice...


----------



## sammy3

Walter, 

Im sorry you're here. The road is just starting. There is a lot of healing to do and along with that, loads of other crap that's coming your way.

Question for ya? Have you stop and think how quick, easy, & fast it was to sleep w that other women? How it made you feel so good & that you were looking forward to the next meeting w her? So quickly it felt good? 

Just wondering if wife were to learn that the first thing you did was to go out and get laid, would it just bring more anger to and already bad situation ? But w no kids, you'll most likely just go your separate way anyway, so it wont matter much... 

~sammy


----------



## aug

WalterWhite420 said:


> Yeah, reading back over my story, I can see why some were on troll alert.


Somehow, for me, that feeling never quite went completely away...


----------



## manticore

well, I used to watch breaking bad and I identified his user name and avatar inmediatly, but I let it pass as something he feels affinity for (as the fact that he is a biochemnist), after all I don't claim being a mythological monster with the body of a lion just because that is my user name LOL.

but who knows, at this point as I am already answering his posts I already took my decission regarding if his story is true or not.


----------



## mahike

The holidays are always the worst for triggers. Kissing someone at midnight, sleeping in on New Years day and so on. 

Triggers can come from anything and anywhere. Time will heal this but it does take time. My wife started her PA around 12/2010 and it still creeps into the back of my mind no matter what I do.

You will find that taking some joy from your wife's pain gives you pleasure today later you will reflect back on that pleasure and it will cause you some pain.

The best revenge is really about you living a new and better life. I do wonder if you are not dating yet because you really have an underlying desire to R with your wife or is it perhaps morals or religion holding you back?

Best of luck


----------



## vellocet

WalterWhite420 said:


> I want to separate myself from her forever and ever and ever...in my mind...but in my heart, I still love her and want her so bad


That'll change once you are in the company of other women. You want your cheating wife right now because you can't imagine yourself with someone else. Trust me, there are better women out there and when you are in their company, you won't want the skank.


----------



## vellocet

WalterWhite420 said:


> but she does have many great qualities.


All rendered null and void by her cheating as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## WalterWhite420

manticore said:


> well, I used to watch breaking bad and I identified his user name and avatar inmediatly, but I let it pass as something he feels affinity for (as the fact that he is a biochemnist), after all I don't claim being a mythological monster with the body of a lion just because that is my user name LOL.
> 
> but who knows, at this point as I am already answering his posts I already took my decission regarding if his story is true or not.


I sure did love "Breaking Bad", my degrees are in chemistry, and I'm an advocate for the legalization of marijuana period (no prescription required). So,

WalterWhite420

For those who might not know, 4/20 (April 20th) is the world-wide date for marijuana legalization rallies.

I use that same user name on a couple other web sites I frequent.


----------



## WalterWhite420

aug said:


> Somehow, for me, that feeling never quite went completely away...


Well, thanks for your replies anyway. I appreciate them.


----------



## WalterWhite420

aug said:


> biochemist
> 
> walter white
> 
> 420
> 
> nice...


What's interesting about the OM's security job? Do you see it being similar to Walt's bro-in-law Hank, the DEA agent?


----------



## WalterWhite420

I ran into my IC at the gym this morning, we talked a bit, and he asked if I had gotten out of the house this week for some time with friends. He had been encouraging me to do so. I told him about New Year's Eve, and my hookup, and he was surprised. He briefly asked about her, what she looked like, her personality, etc. After I answered these questions he said something to the effect of:

"I want you to think about something between now and our session next week (......long pause......). Your hookup partner sounds very similar to your wife, in both looks and personality".

I hate having psychologists inside my head.


----------



## bandit.45

WalterWhite420 said:


> I ran into my IC at the gym this morning, we talked a bit, and he asked if I had gotten out of the house this week for some time with friends. He had been encouraging me to do so. I told him about New Year's Eve, and my hookup, and he was surprised. He briefly asked about her, what she looked like, her personality, etc. After I answered these questions he said something to the effect of:
> 
> *"I want you to think about something between now and our session next week (......long pause......). Your hookup partner sounds very similar to your wife, in both looks and personality".
> 
> I hate having psychologists inside my head*.


:rofl:. You got nailed buddy! That's the problem with having a good shrink! They call you on your crap every time.


----------



## WalterWhite420

bandit.45 said:


> :rofl:. You got nailed buddy! That's the problem with having a good shrink! They call you on your crap every time.


He sure did. Sometimes I'd like to ring his neck.

But he came highly recommended from people I respect a lot, so I know he's doing a good job for me. He's taken me from near suicidal, to highly functional once again. Hopefully "happy" is the next place he'll take me.


----------



## workindad

You can and will find your way to happy again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

WalterWhite420 said:


> He sure did. Sometimes I'd like to wring his neck.
> 
> But he came highly recommended from people I respect a lot, so I know he's doing a good job for me. He's taken me from near suicidal, to highly functional once again. Hopefully "happy" is the next place he'll take me.


He sounds like a good one.
Consider meeting up with stbxw if for nothing else but to insure she does not contest so you get the d in feb.
If you don't I can totally understand.


----------



## WalterWhite420

workindad said:


> You can and will find your way to happy again.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you. This web site is certainly helping.


----------



## WalterWhite420

tom67 said:


> He sounds like a good one.
> Consider meeting up with stbxw if for nothing else but to insure she does not contest so you get the d in feb.
> If you don't I can totally understand.


I'm considering it, especially since my IC thinks I need to. He warned me though that I would take an emotional roller coaster ride afterward. But he says I will take that ride anyway, once way or another; it's just a matter of time. And he thinks that's the next step in my recovery, so he wants me to do it sooner rather than later.

I've actually met with her several times over the past few months, but only to exchange various items or talk divorce settlement. But my IC thinks I need to allow her to talk about whatever she wants (i.e. the affair). And I'm afraid to do that. Terrified, actually.


----------



## tom67

WalterWhite420 said:


> I'm considering it, especially since my IC thinks I need to. He warned me though that I would take an emotional roller coaster ride afterward. But he says I will take that ride anyway, once way or another; it's just a matter of time. And he thinks that's the next step in my recovery, so he wants me to do it sooner rather than later.
> 
> I've actually met with her several times over the past few months, but only to exchange various items or talk divorce settlement. But my IC thinks I need to allow her to talk about whatever she wants (i.e. the affair). And I'm afraid to do that. Terrified, actually.


Yep he is spot on the roller coaster will be there no matter.
It sounds like you are doing well considering.


----------



## bandit.45

WalterWhite420 said:


> I've actually met with her several times over the past few months, but only to exchange various items or talk divorce settlement. But my IC thinks I need to allow her to talk about whatever she wants (i.e. the affair). And I'm afraid to do that. Terrified, actually.


Here is what you do: 

1) Meet at a neutral location like a restaurant or coffee shop. This way if the meeting gets heated she can't call the cops on you and file a fals report against or some b.s. and get you in trouble. You would not beieve how many BSs here on TAM have had spouses set them up and pull that DV sh!t on them. 

2) Just tell her: "Okay, you have as long as you need to state your case. I'm listening." Then just listen. Don't interject, don't interrupt... then after she has stated her case reply to what she has told you. 

3) Dont get emotional. Stay neutral. Act like she is a business client or coworker. Keep the emotions out of it. 

Whatever you do dont make her any promises. 

If anything, this will give you and her some closure.


----------



## WalterWhite420

I just got off the phone with my wife. I called her to set up a meeting tomorrow. She was somewhat surprised because I’ve been ignoring her for a long time now. I said I would like to meet with her, but I had the following conditions:

1. We meet at Starbucks. Not a private place.

2. We would NOT talk about the affair.

3. The meeting would last no more than 30 minutes unless I decided it could last longer.

4. She could give me written correspondence about anything, including the affair, and I would read it in private and decide whether or not I wanted to meet with her again.

She agreed, and said she had already written me a long, comprehensive letter of everything she wanted to tell me. Her IC suggested it, since I was rebuffing her efforts to meet with me. So she asked if we could meet this evening instead of tomorrow. I agreed.

We’re meeting in about an hour. Wish me luck. I’m very shaky, scared, and am not sure I will actually meet with her once I arrive at Starbucks. I may just leave without getting out of my truck.

I'm pretty good at putting up a "no worry" front, but why am I so afraid of this?


----------



## bandit.45

Good luck. Let us know how it went.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

bandit.45 said:


> Good luck. Let us know how it went.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:
Good luck cool and calm.


----------



## sandc

WW, I just spotted your story today. This is one of those threads that just exploded so I was not able to read everything so I may be repeating what someone else has already said. 

Let me tell you it's good to see a man who's not afraid of being a man. I think you did well to smack OM around a bit. I think you did well to NOT smack your wife around. You showed class and honor throughout this whole thing. We don't have to be alpha a$$holes but we don't have to sit back and just "take it" either.

You're showing great respect for yourself and for better or worse you have your wife's respect now. I believe the only way you would lose her respect, is to take her back at this point. 

I also don't see any harm in telling her that you love her, but you don't need her.

Lastly, I don't know if this has been suggested but it is something you can consider. You wife killed this marriage. It is dead. The D must go through. However, if you find you just can't get over her (don't ever let her know that by the way) you can offer her the opportunity to compete for you with any of the other women you will be dating. There is at least one other poster here that D'd his wife. Dated others and ended up dating his ex again.

The beauty of it is that you are in the driver's seat here. I admire what you've done. Best of luck.


----------



## happyman64

Walter

Good Luck tonight even though you do not need it.

Stay cool.
Stay calm.
Stay dispassionate.

And if you have a var or iPhone record the conversation so you can listen at a later time.

I know it helps me to listen to myself as well as the other party to remember exactly what took place.

Especially when all you can hear is your blood rushing to your head! 

You will be fine.

Listen Walter. Really listen. Only you will know if she is truly remorseful.

HM


----------



## LongWalk

I must admit that infidelity confuses me. A cheater sometimes goes and has sex with a POSOM/W. They go into a so-called "fog". Sometime the fog is called "being in love" or "having feelings for the other". After Dday the BS sometimes desperately reminds the WS that (s)he love WS and wants to restore their relationship.

Sometimes posters tell the BS, you must wait until the fog clears, i.e., the love or infatuation ends. Sadly, it is often added that waiting may take a long time and by the time the fog lifts and true love – and wasn't it a fog to begin with, too? – reveals itself in the sunlight again BS will have "moved on" and no longer cares to consider R.

Sometimes true love hangs on for ages. CD Baker, LoveLove and certainly countless women posters who tolerate affair after affair.

Here comes Walter's WW, fighting on 10 months after the fog lifted. is her love mere possessiveness? Does she see her dating prospects as miserable? Or does she love Walter? And if Walter still loves her and the sex with the other man was just fog juice, why does it matter? Why do the sex and love sometimes seem inseparable at times while in others they seem unconnected?

Maybe Walter is going to make us wiser.


----------



## WalterWhite420

I just got home from meeting with my wife at Starbucks. And I’m an emotional wreck. I knew I would be.

But I put up the “stone face” to her. I was calm, matter-of-fact, and non-emotional. Until we said goodbye.

Of course she looked absolutely stunning. She made sure to wear my favorite style and color of clothes (black and pink form-fitting, yoga-like clothes; black boots). Her curves were picturesque; she hasn’t missed a beat at the gym. She also had her hair colored the way she knows I love it (jet black with very slight pink highlights; so sexy). She’s 44 but doesn’t look a day over 30. She turned every head in the coffee shop.

I’ve been drinking a little and partaking of my favorite herb of the field, so please forgive me if I’m embellishing a bit.

We talked for 30 minutes. She gave me a “War and Peace” length hand-written letter, and I told her I’d read it at home tonight.

She also had a surprise for me. 

We both got our undergraduate degrees from Auburn University. That’s where we met and started living together. We always loved going to football games, and watching Auburn football on TV when we couldn’t attend. Back in 2010, when Auburn played Oregon for the National Championship in Pasadena, we went to the game and spent a week there. Both of us have remarked several times since that it was probably the nicest vacation we’ve ever had.

Anyway, as most of you know, Auburn is playing again in the National Championship game Monday in Pasadena. So my wife shows me two prime-seat tickets for the game, receipts for airline reservations (this Saturday), and hotel reservations (for a week) at the hotel we stayed at back in 2010. She wants us to go together and rekindle. She went to a LOT of trouble to set this up. She couldn’t have come up with a better reconciliation proposal.

All I said was that I’d go home and read her letter. And that I would MAYBE call her tomorrow.

She walked me out to my truck, and before I knew it she had her arms around me, head on my shoulder. She said “I love you endlessly. I’m so sorry for what I did. Please give us another chance. Let’s go to Pasadena”. It felt so good to be close to her. Of course she was crying. I could feel her tears running down my neck. I told her goodbye (nicely but without emotion), but she saw the tears running down my face before I could get in my truck. And of course since she hugged me I had to smell her wonderful perfume all the way home.

I’m getting weak. I wish I could get her out of my heart and head, but after tonight, I just don’t know if I can. I was SO TEMPTED. She’s so desirable. And although I just can’t see going to the game with her, I have to give her credit for a really nice try. I hate for her to waste all that money, but she’s not hurting for money in the least. She’s quite comfortable financially.

Her letter is sitting on my desk, unread. I’m not going to read it until my nerves settle down a bit. I had planned on eating pizza and watching Alabama destroy Oklahoma tonight in football, but I have no interest now.

The way I feel, I may need to call my IC and request a session for tomorrow, especially after I read her letter 100 times tonight.

I thought I was stronger than this. This is why I’ve been refusing to meet with her.

F*ck my IC. He encouraged me to do this. But I know he had his reasons.


----------



## ThePheonix

WalterWhite420 said:


> Of course she looked absolutely stunning. She made sure to wear my favorite style and color of clothes (black and pink form-fitting, yoga-like clothes; black boots). Her curves were picturesque; she hasn’t missed a beat at the gym. She also had her hair colored the way she knows I love it (jet black with very slight pink highlights; so sexy). She’s 44 but doesn’t look a day over 30. She turned every head in the coffee shop.


You sound like you're mesmerized with the way she looks. Nothing wrong with that or with reconciling but just make sure you're thinking with the right head before you wade back into that water.


----------



## WalterWhite420

ThePheonix said:


> You sound like you're mesmerized with the way she looks. Nothing wrong with that or with reconciling but just make sure you're thinking with the right head before you wade back into that water.


I'm quite probably thinking with the WRONG head...and it feels so good. But I hate it a bit too.


----------



## happyman64

Walter

Don't read the letter.

Call her tomorrow. Go to Pasadena.

Have a fun week.

Then go home and read the letter.

Then decide the following:

1. Do you still love her?

2. Can you ever forgive her?

3. Can you love her enough and forgive her enough to ever reconcile with her?

That is what I would do. Just remember you have a choice.

But you do not have to rush to any decision.

Go to the game. 

Who knows you might actually have fun and get laid! 

HM


----------



## indiecat

She took you for granted,but now she sees that you have zero tolerance, and are a righteous man. So she's turned on again. You beating up her OM probably gave her a big ego boost as well. 

I agree that you should stay separated for a period of time and re-evaluate in 3 or 6 months. Jumping back now would not work in the long run. It would just be hysterical bonding sex at this point.


----------



## Singledude21

Like I was saying a while back, you definitely seem to have a wife who's truly remorseful. But I still believe you go through with the divorce anyway. She has to be punished for the marriage she ended, and you do that by ending it.

But just because you end the marriage doesn't mean she can't have a second crack at a relationship with you. In fact IMO, if you do divorce her and she still goes through with doing backflips to get you back, you should give it a shot.

I mean what's the worse that can happen? She cheats on you again? Ain't no issue, cause you've already shown her you have no problem letting her go. If you ever get a chance, look at TheFlood's thread. He caught his wife, handled it like a boss, and has her running at his feet. And he's divorved btw. So he gets to have "fun" with her while she still has to prove herself to him, because its no strings attached. 

If you cut the cord and she doesn't feel like chasing you, IMO it proves in the back of her head she was ready to end with you anyway.


----------



## Graywolf2

I can understand why you’re so tempted. 

I’ve often wondered how a woman can instantly go into R with all her heart and soul when the only reason she ended the affair was because she was caught. 

The only thing I can think of is that the husband was providing 95% of her needs and OM was making up the difference. The 5% was free until she was caught. She panics realizing that the 95% is now at risk.

Walter, your case has wide extremes. You found out in the worst way that she had a f**k buddy for a year. Yet, it does sound like you had a wonderful marriage. I’ve never heard of a woman putting so much effort into R after being totally rejected.

Sometimes women try to R to save their reputations, but you have already exposed. She’s also finically independent. 

This might play a role:



indiecat said:


> She took you for granted,but now she sees that you have zero tolerance, and are a righteous man. So she's turned on again. You beating up her OM probably gave her a big ego boost as well.


My daughter told me that she doesn’t find Mel Gibson attractive, but it turns her on when he fights to protect his wife in Braveheart.

In my opinion, the only reason not to go on the trip is because it might convince you to attempt a painful R that is doomed to fail.

If you're sure that you will not be tempted to R, I would go to Pasadena in a heartbeat and take this advice:



Singledude21 said:


> You definitely seem to have a wife who's truly remorseful. But I still believe you go through with the divorce anyway. She has to be punished for the marriage she ended, and you do that by ending it.
> 
> But just because you end the marriage doesn't mean she can't have a second crack at a relationship with you. In fact IMO, if you do divorce her and she still goes through with doing backflips to get you back, you should give it a shot.
> 
> I mean what's the worse that can happen? She cheats on you again? Ain't no issue, cause you've already shown her you have no problem letting her go. If you ever get a chance, look at TheFlood's thread. He caught his wife, handled it like a boss, and has her running at his feet. And he's divorved btw. So he gets to have "fun" with her while she still has to prove herself to him, because its no strings attached.


----------



## Singledude21

As well as putting that fear in her now. It will no longer be a case of her wondering if she can ever lose it all like most cheaters, she'll now know its fact he will drop her, and make her much more cautious of going out of the boundaries if she truly wants him.


----------



## krismimo

happyman64 said:


> Walter
> 
> Don't read the letter.
> 
> Call her tomorrow. Go to Pasadena.
> 
> Have a fun week.
> 
> Then go home and read the letter.
> 
> Then decide the following:
> 
> 1. Do you still love her?
> 
> 2. Can you ever forgive her?
> 
> 3. Can you love her enough and forgive her enough to ever reconcile with her?
> 
> That is what I would do. Just remember you have a choice.
> 
> But you do not have to rush to any decision.
> 
> Go to the game.
> 
> Who knows you might actually have fun and get laid!
> 
> HM



HM your usually spot on when it comes to advice more than most. But I have to say I think it is a bad idea to spend all that time with her, sure it might be fun but I think he would trigger and it is too soon and awfully confusing. If he goes she thinks he would want to R and sleep with him, and even if he does go do the do he would be more confused and more inclined to continue to R with blinders on. All I'am saying is tread lightly Walter. And I'm sorry you are here.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

sandc said:


> WW, I just spotted your story today. This is one of those threads that just exploded so I was not able to read everything so I may be repeating what someone else has already said.
> 
> Let me tell you it's good to see a man who's not afraid of being a man. I think you did well to smack OM around a bit. I think you did well to NOT smack your wife around. You showed class and honor throughout this whole thing. We don't have to be alpha a$$holes but we don't have to sit back and just "take it" either.
> 
> You're showing great respect for yourself and for better or worse you have your wife's respect now. I believe the only way you would lose her respect, is to take her back at this point.
> 
> I also don't see any harm in telling her that you love her, but you don't need her.
> 
> Lastly, I don't know if this has been suggested but it is something you can consider. You wife killed this marriage. It is dead. The D must go through. However, if you find you just can't get over her (don't ever let her know that by the way) you can offer her the opportunity to compete for you with any of the other women you will be dating. There is at least one other poster here that D'd his wife. Dated others and ended up dating his ex again.
> 
> The beauty of it is that you are in the driver's seat here. I admire what you've done. Best of luck.


:iagree:

The last paragraph in particular. She can be replaced, totally. You can find someone else and love them every bit as much.


----------



## sammy3

Walter, 

I too would say tread lightly. Can you be together 24/7 now w/ out the raw emotions coming to the surface? Too much, too soon. Too much expectations, could lead to a testing time. 

I'm 2.5 yrs out, and would have never understood then when others wrote, "one day the affair will become a distance memory." I'ld split blood out at anyone who said this to me. But, things are different now. We're not back together, but we're not apart either... We havent stopped loving each other, but we can't be together much either yet. 

And this is where the fun part starts for the bs, to reject the attempts the ww makes, and it flips, starts to make us, the bs feel bad for not accepting the kind offers. The confusion starts to set in. The roller coaster starts... 


~sammy


----------



## nuclearnightmare

ThePheonix said:


> You sound like you're mesmerized with the way she looks. Nothing wrong with that or with reconciling but just make sure you're thinking with the right head before you wade back into that water.


Walter:

There are plenty of people in the world that are dazzling on the outside but garbage on the inside. They can often be very persuasive, seductive or charismatic people. They are complete phonies nonetheless. They are often master manipulators. What a 
Perfect way to pull you back to her........a romantic football weekend.

You really need to consider what her true character is. You have to reevaluate her, figuring her infidelity into how you now view her. This will help you detach from her I think.

There are better women than her out there for you. You just need to get about finding one


----------



## ThePheonix

Singledude21 said:


> she'll now know its fact he will drop her, and make her much more cautious of going out of the boundaries if she truly wants him.


Walter will overplay his hand if she knows he'll cave because she dolls herself up. He'll reveal he's no match for her sex appeal and therefore no challenge. His tough guy image, now in her eyes, will go down like the Lusitania.


----------



## MovingAhead

No one knows you like your spouse. They know how to push all of your buttons. The only way they can't push your buttons is if you change who you are at least to them.

You go to the game, you are starting down the path of R or fake R. The decision is yours. The only right answer is the one you pick.


----------



## OldWolf57

for a year, in your house and your bed !!
enuff said


----------



## just got it 55

Too soon for any move

WW take your time

55


----------



## dogman

I'll say what I say to my son when a girl isn't worth it....

"The world is full of women....think with a wider view."

You're a fool if you take her back. You're almost free, don't go backwards.


----------



## dogman

Next time, before you meet her, wack off a time or two then see how you feel when she hugs you. I bet you think more clearly.


----------



## happyman64

krismimo said:


> HM your usually spot on when it comes to advice more than most. But I have to say I think it is a bad idea to spend all that time with her, sure it might be fun but I think he would trigger and it is too soon and awfully confusing. If he goes she thinks he would want to R and sleep with him, and even if he does go do the do he would be more confused and more inclined to continue to R with blinders on. All I'am saying is tread lightly Walter. And I'm sorry you are here.


I do not agree. Walter is a smart guy. Yes he is torn but he is not stupid. He still loves his wife.

His wife seems remorseful. She was surprised from his call to meet. She obviously is serious about reconciling with Walter.

I think Walter should go to reconnect with his wife. The week away would be good for both of them.

Walter can make it clear that this week does not mean they will reconcile if that makes him feel better.

But I honestly feel that a week together will help them understand a few things:

A. Why they would both want to reconcile?
B. If Walter can forgive his wife enough to reconcile in the future?
C. Why his wife chose to cheat on Walter and engage in a year long affair under his very nose.

While I am pro reconciliation I do believe in divorce as a consequence.

IMO Walters wife deserves a divorce. Her affair and the way she got caught is extremely hurtful. The level of disrespect is high.

Only Walter can determine just how strong his love for his wife is!

That is why I still recommend he go on the trip. It is only for a few days. He should take the letter and read it next to her on the last night or when het gets home.

I think his heart would be settled by then. And in his head he would know what he wants.

I also think he would fully understand his wife true intentions for reconciling.

I do not think she is trying to save face. If that was the case she would have given up months ago.

Again, does she deserve serious consequences? Yes.

But I think Walters counselor is right on the money with reaching out to us and reaching out to his wife.

I think it is time if Walter feels he is ready to see it through.

There is absolutely no shame in loving a cheater if that person is remorseful.

The key is both spouses understanding the damage that has been done and both of them acknowledging what is required to start all over.

Lets see what happens.........

HM


----------



## rrrbbbttt

Walter:

Oklahoma beat Bama.

Unless you get your Head out of your A**. Bama won't be the only one facing two defeats in a roll.

She CHEATED on you.

Has NO REMORSE, only that she has lost half her paycheck and her support.

You are headed down the same road that BAMA did. They got beat by Auburn and let down for the Okies and they got it handed to them on January 2, 2014. 

Wake up


----------



## Graywolf2

Your wife respects you now because of the way you handled yourself on D day and afterwards. If you R too easily, you will lose some of that respect.

If you have a wonderful time in Pasadena, tell her that she has convinced you that you are her number one boyfriend. Proceed with a D, that way you will retain your newly gained respect. Then decide if she is your number one girlfriend or not.

Since you are both very independent and don’t have kids, there isn’t really any reason to ever fully R. She is your special friend with whom you share many good memories. Enjoy her company but don’t expose yourself to being hurt that much again. When your girlfriend cheats on you it isn’t quite as bad.

**EDIT**

If she starts pressing you to fully R, tell her that you can’t risk being hurt that much again. That way you nicely change the subject to what she did in a non-accusatory way. It also acknowledges how much you loved her before her affair and reminds her of how much she lost.


----------



## workindad

OP I would definitely go to the game. 

I see no reason not to. I would also read the letter she wrote before going. 

I do believe she is making efforts and demonstrating remorse. Maybe that is not enough for you to want to reconcile but it is what it is. 

Going to the game does not mean reconciling 
Reading the letter does not mean reconciling. 

Your a fan had a blast last time you went. Go have some fun it might do you some good
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## convert

OP have you had sex with her in the 8 months since d-day?

I think you can have sex with her and it does not mean R.

I do not see anything wrong with hysterical bonding with or without R or D.

Take your time.
I like the idea of D then maybe R

You could tell her that D is a means to start over completely or just date for a while.

By the way if you D then remarry get a prenup.


----------



## Gomerpyle

Just a spectator here but if we are breaking the law with pot and having sex while still technically married, looks like drinking and driving, and who knows what else then we might just ease up slightly on the super judgementalism.


----------



## sandc

R or don't R, Walter. Your choice. D her either way. Consequences man. Make her win you back. After dating a few other women you will know whether you want her back or not.


----------



## sandc

Just adding that you wife is showing far more remorse than most. For what it's worth.


----------



## lordmayhem

sandc said:


> Just adding that you wife is showing far more remorse than most. For what it's worth.


:iagree:

Considering they have no kids together and he went nuclear with exposure, it's very unusual.


----------



## The Middleman

sandc said:


> Just adding that you wife is showing far more remorse than most. For what it's worth.


That may be true, but I still wouldn't take her back. Walter has the right attitude and a high degree of self respect ..... so far. Kudos Walter.


----------



## Philat

lordmayhem said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Considering they have no kids together and he went nuclear with exposure, it's very unusual.


Very, very unusual.


----------



## sandc

lordmayhem said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Considering they have no kids together and he went nuclear with exposure, it's very unusual.


I hadn't considered that. So, we have here a woman who was cheating on her husband for about a year, got caught, had her OM beaten in front of her and tossed into the street naked (that part wasn't really pertinent, I just added it because it does my heart good), and is now showing higher than normal levels of remorse. Consider they have no children as LM pointed out. Consider also that she earns good money and doesn't need Walter to provide for her needs.

Thinking objectively, what are her motives for working so hard to get Walter back?


----------



## Clay2013

Walter, 

I would not go spend time with her. I understand she is showing all this attention now but realize this is after she was caught. This is after you showed her the door. This was not her coming to you saying sorry for hurting you before you caught her. I think there is a clear line separating the two things. In my mind genuine remorse is when someone comes to you on there own and accepts that they have failed. They own there mistake. They do this before you find out because they do feel guilty. She did not do those things. This does not seem to be genuine remorse. This only seems to be that she wants her home and her life back. 

I think going out of town with her would be a mistake. You sadly had to see first hand her cheating. Going to a football game and being alone with her in a hotel is not going to erase that from your mind. You will more than likely spend the whole week fighting and miserable. This is still to fresh of a wound for you right now. Anything she will have to say won't really make much sense and won't heal your heart. 

I would listen to sand and go meet other woman and go out on other dates. Then come back and see if you want to give her another chance. 

Clay


----------



## sandc

The Middleman said:


> That may be true, but I still wouldn't take her back. Walter has the right attitude and a high degree of self respect ..... so far. Kudos Walter.


Walter has certainly shown higher levels of self-respect that most BS's eh? None of the grovelling we normally see.

I'm all for D'ing her no matter what.

:smthumbup:


----------



## bandit.45

WW did you tell her about your one night stand on New Years night?


----------



## sandc

The Middleman said:


> That may be true, but I still wouldn't take her back. Walter has the right attitude and a high degree of self respect ..... so far. Kudos Walter.


And on a personal note, I don't think that *I* could ever get over the mind movie of catching my wife fooking someone else in MY fooking bed.

Walter, I hope you burned that bed. Go buy a new one if you haven't already.


----------



## happyman64

sandc said:


> And on a personal note, I don't think that *I* could ever get over the mind movie of catching my wife fooking someone else in MY fooking bed.
> 
> Walter, I hope you burned that bed. Go buy a new one if you haven't already.


He got rid of the bed in one of his earlier posts.

So Walter you have been quiet for a day.....

Did you read the letter??.


----------



## workindad

Walter if you don't want to go with her. 

You could always ask for the airline and game tickets. Leave her at home and take a friend. It would be a great time. 

She is certainly demonstrating more remorse than my xWW ever did. I do understand that it may not matter
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Racer

And lol. It’s also a biochemist beating the snot out of a security advisor to make it even odder.

I read through your entire thread today. So, you are at a crossroads. If you go on that trip, you know she’ll win you back. She already has your heart; that is why you fear. Your heart is at war with your self-image, ego, morals and values. That so totally sucks. And because I assume you are somewhat like me given your field, you make choices in a rational logical way instead of emotional. But it’s that overbearing emotional pull toward her that becons and you have zero rational or reasonable arguments to stay married (they all point to divorce). Floundering sucks... 

I don’t know how to advise you. I made a very scary leap of faith to R with my own WW. In doing so, I took immense blows to my own self-worth and self-esteem for losing that inner fight. Love/hate of both her and myself. R is not an easy path, but neither is D as you think about her. All I can say is dig deep into yourself and go with your primal gut feeling. Do you feel your life is better with her in it or not? (Look to your feelings rather than try to justify or rationalize why the hell you feel that way)... It’s why I started walking down my path.


----------



## sandc

How are you doing Walter? Not couch locked are you?


----------



## WalterWhite420

bandit.45 said:


> WW did you tell her about your one night stand on New Years night?


Not yet.


----------



## WalterWhite420

sandc said:


> How are you doing Walter? Not couch locked are you?


I'm not couch locked at the present. A lot has happened since last night. I've read her letter, talked to her again, seen my IC, and was able to finally go to sleep for about 3 hours. I've just gotten up. I'll write up the events in one long post in a few minutes. I'd like to see what all of you think, especially about what my IC said. I'm actually a bit hungry and in need of a shower. More later.

Thank you all for your interest, help, and support.


----------



## tom67

WalterWhite420 said:


> I'm not couch locked at the present. A lot has happened since last night. I've read her letter, talked to her again, seen my IC, and was able to finally go to sleep for about 3 hours. I've just gotten up. I'll write up the events in one long post in a few minutes. I'd like to see what all of you think, especially about what my IC said. I'm actually a bit hungry and in need of a shower. More later.
> 
> Thank you all for your interest, help, and support.


That's fine just remember she is on YOUR timetable not the other way around.
Hang in there.


----------



## whatslovegottodowithit?

In the interest of sports, you kinda have to go to the game. In the interest of your M, it may be worth going to see if for sure you want the marriage to end. In the interest of a divorce settlement, going with her to the game may make for a more amicable negotiation.


----------



## WalterWhite420

Gomerpyle said:


> Just a spectator here but if we are breaking the law with pot and having sex while still technically married, looks like drinking and driving, and who knows what else then we might just ease up slightly on the super judgementalism.


As for our favorite herb, since college at least, we have always partaken at home. Never on the road. And we are very light users. We found in college that certain strains (mainly sativas) really enhance sex. Takes it to another level that can't be explained in words. At least for us. One of our main hobbies together over the years has been growing our own in our basement. Very small personal grows, never for sale. No one else knows. We don't hurt our lungs, because we usually make our marijuana into canna-butter, and make brownies with it. But occasionally, we smoke, but we use a vaporizer that is much safer that breathing fully combusted material.

And the cops around here don't care anyway. They're all tired of risking their lives busting people for marijuana when they know it's not helping to win a so-called war war against it. It's all about to be legal here anyway.


----------



## WalterWhite420

So last night about 9:00, I read her letter. It wasn’t at all what I expected.

The first page contained statements and pledges, the most important of which were (paraphrasing):

1.	You are the best husband I could have ever asked for.

2.	The affair was all my fault. None of it was your fault.

3.	I hurt you terribly, and I’m so sorry. I can’t change the fact that I hurt you, but I can and have dedicated the rest of my life to removing as much of that pain as I can. I love you endlessly and can’t live without you.

4.	I will be glad to answer any questions about what happened, in whatever detail you want. And I will take as many polygraphs as you like, from now forward.

5.	I wrote a NC letter to my AP (copy attached).

6.	I also filed a restraining order against him (copy attached) when he wouldn’t honor my NC letter.

7.	I have shut down my Facebook account.

8.	I will give you all the passwords to my phone, home email, and work email.

9.	You are welcome to install keylogger software on our home PC. In fact, I want you to do so.

10.	You can have a mechanic permanently attach a GPS to my car, if that’s possible.

11.	I will apply for a job at your company so you’ll know where I’m at every day.

The rest of the letter mainly consisted of various short stories and passionate love sonnets she has written about us in the past few months. She’s always been fond of writing poetry, and she’s good at it.

The last few pages were color photos of our trip to Pasadena in 2010, followed by a few paragraphs about how much she wants us to go again this year.

Of course I read, and re-read, and re-read all night long. And I cried every tear that I had. 

About 4:00AM, I got a text from her that said “Are you still up? Give me a call”.

So I called her. It was just small talk until she asked “Did you like the outfit I was wearing last night?”. I said “No, it made you look fat and ugly”. And she laughed. And I laughed too. It was spontaneous and genuine, and I haven’t laughed like that in a long time. She said “That’s just one of several new outfits I bought for Pasadena. You’ll like them all”.

Then she asked if we could talk again tonight, in person, at the house. She said she would stay only as long as I said she could. Yeah, like I don’t know she’d be here all night. I said I’d think about it and call her later today. We said good nite (morning) and hung up. 

I emailed my IC and asked for some time today. He made time for me just before lunch. I told him all about everything, showed him her complete letter, and waited for his advice. He said something to the effect of:

“Jack, it’s not my job to tell you what you should think or how you should feel. But part of my job is to help you discover what you want to do, and to help you have the courage to do it. None of us CHOOSE how we feel. We just feel it. The truth is, you want to go on this trip. And you want to reconcile. You may find after a while that you really DON’T want to reconcile, but you do want that now. The reason you need to go on this trip is to further explore what you want. Three years from now, if you see her with another man and realize you still want her, you’ll never forgive yourself for not going on this trip. Just go. And remember that it doesn’t mean that you HAVE to reconcile. It just gives you the chance to.”

I’m still considering.


----------



## The Middleman

Question for you. If you go on this trip and you "discover" that you want reconcile, what do you think you are going to get in return from her for the pain and suffering she put you through. Would you feel like you have been had? Would you feel that she got away with this "Scott Free"? Would it eat at you for years? How would all that and taking her back reconcile with your sense of self-respect, which you seem to have a lot of.

I'm not asking this to be a wise a$$, just pointing out somethings that your IC wont. This trip will make you emotionally vulnerable to consider forgiving someone who took sperm injections form another guy for a year! (I'll never forget your Singer Sewing Machine line). Just by reading your posts, I don't know how you can do it.


----------



## WalterWhite420

The Middleman said:


> Question for you. If you go on this trip and you "discover" that you reconcile what do you think you are going to get in return for the pain and suffering you went through. Would you feel like you have been had? Would you feel that she got away with this "Scott Free"? How would all that and taking her back reconcile with your sense of self-respect, which you seem to have a lot of.
> 
> I'm not asking this to be a wise a$$, just pointing out somethings that your IC wont.


Honestly, I don't know. These are good questions. But right now I don't have good answers.


----------



## The Middleman

WalterWhite420 said:


> Honestly, I don't know. These are good questions. But right now I don't have good answers.


If you do go (and I advise that you don't), and you do have sex with her, wear a condom at all times. We've seen women here, a few times, use hysterical bonding as a means of getting pregnant to force a reconciliation. Don't let that happen to you.

Edit: I slightly updated my previous post. Please re-read it.


----------



## 10th Engineer Harrison

Interesting letter.

The only thing *I* have a problem with is her comment about "I can't live without you." That, of course, isn't true. What's more, I think that relationships - especially marriages - are often unhealthy precisely because the couple believes something like this 2 be true.

Love is a feeling 2 these people. Their partner "completes them". So, if they can't sustain the romantic high for the rest of their lives, there's something wrong with them. Or with their spouse. And if their partner runs off with someone else, or dies, they're only half a person, because their "completing partner" is now gone?

Other than that, I thought her letter was very good, from the standpoint of including all the "i'll do whatever it takes" kind of statements in it.

I agree, you want 2 reconcile. It's been a year, so maybe you could give it a shot, especially if you can be an emotionally healthy individual, able 2 take or leave the relationship going forward.

I wouldn't think of divorce as "the end." And I would try 2 help her think in those terms as well. In a very important way, your marriage was over a year ago. Let it stay dead. Let it legally end. Then, you can continue 2 explore what kind of new relationship you might be able 2 have with her and start fresh, rather than trying 2 repair something so broken in such a graphic manner.

best,
-ol' 2long


----------



## WalterWhite420

rrrbbbttt said:


> Walter:
> 
> Oklahoma beat Bama.
> 
> Unless you get your Head out of your A**. Bama won't be the only one facing two defeats in a roll.
> 
> She CHEATED on you.
> 
> Has NO REMORSE, only that she has lost half her paycheck and her support.
> 
> You are headed down the same road that BAMA did. They got beat by Auburn and let down for the Okies and they got it handed to them on January 2, 2014.
> 
> Wake up


Bama's defense was shredded, wasn't it? OK looked good, from what I've read today.


----------



## sandc

WalterWhite420 said:


> As for our favorite herb, since college at least, we have always partaken at home. Never on the road. And we are very light users. We found in college that certain strains (mainly sativas) really enhance sex. Takes it to another level that can't be explained in words. At least for us. One of our main hobbies together over the years has been growing our own in our basement. Very small personal grows, never for sale. No one else knows. We don't hurt our lungs, because we usually make our marijuana into canna-butter, and make brownies with it. But occasionally, we smoke, but we use a vaporizer that is much safer that breathing fully combusted material.
> 
> And the cops around here don't care anyway. They're all tired of risking their lives busting people for marijuana when they know it's not helping to win a so-called war war against it. It's all about to be legal here anyway.


I think in your case your "hobby" has helped keep you calm and negated the need for the mood stabilizers many of the guys need to go on.


----------



## happyman64

Walter

Your IC is a wise person.

Go on the trip. Because if you don't you will forever regret it.

I do believe your wife is remorseful. It is a start.

I do believe your wife loves you and you love her.

For now it is all you need.

Go.

HM

PS
When you see her tonight ask her the truly deep questions. The first one should be "If you love me so much then how did you let yourself have an affair?"

Then listen Walter. What you are going to realize is that her affair had very little to do with you.

The 2nd question should be "What are you going to do to assure me and yourself that you will never hurt our marriage again?"

Listen.....

Only you can decide if she is worth a 2nd "leap of faith".

Good Luck
Stay cool.
Stay calm.
Passion is ok.

PSS
The fact she had to get a restraining order against the posom just proves again how the wayward affairs down.


----------



## tom67

sandc said:


> I think in your case your "hobby" has helped keep you calm and negated the need for the mood stabilizers many of the guys need to go on.



It's better than big pharma I don't trust them.


----------



## Better Days

WW...your circumstance is so similar of what I went through in 1995-96 with the exception that FB wasn't around as well as the internet wasn't that popular so my wife wasn't using either of them. But we owned a business that she ran and unknown to me her college ex was a salesman that was calling on her in which the affair started and went on for 7 months before I caught it. Nothing took place in our home...she ended it but I still wouldn't have nothing to do with her and ended up divorcing her but could never get over her. A year later exactly from the divorce we R, got remarried and 16 years later we are still very happy that we did the R. I agree with HAPPYMAN...give it a chance and go on vacation and enjoy the game and see what happens. Happy New Year!!!


----------



## tom67

happyman64 said:


> Walter
> 
> Your IC is a wise person.
> 
> Go on the trip. Because if you don't you will forever regret it.
> 
> I do believe your wife is remorseful. It is a start.
> 
> I do believe your wife loves you and you love her.
> 
> For now it is all you need.
> 
> Go.
> 
> HM
> 
> PS
> When you see her tonight ask her the truly deep questions. The first one should be "If you love me so much then how did you let yourself have an affair?"
> 
> Then listen Walter. What you are going to realize is that her affair had very little to do with you.
> 
> The 2nd question should be "What are you going to do to assure me and yourself that you will never hurt our marriage again?"
> 
> Listen.....
> 
> Only you can decide if she is worth a 2nd "leap of faith".
> 
> Good Luck
> Stay cool.
> Stay calm.
> Passion is ok.
> 
> PSS
> The fact she had to get a restraining order against the posom just proves again how the wayward affairs down.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:
She did do the right things so far.
Something to think about we don't see people like her that often here.
Sigh-good luck bro.


----------



## sandc

I think the letter overall was very good. The only thing I noticed was missing was WHY. Did she attempt to explain WHY in the letter? WHY is going to be very important going forward. You're a chemist. You know it's not enough to know what caused a reaction, you need to understand why the reaction happened.


----------



## sammy3

Be sure to tell her of the ons before you go on the trip! She needs to know the truth too. You are now no different than she. You too slept w another person, and she deserves to know that. 

~ sammy


----------



## WalterWhite420

sandc said:


> I think in your case your "hobby" has helped keep you calm and negated the need for the mood stabilizers many of the guys need to go on.


Yeah, I want to avoid anti-depressants.


----------



## Tron

WalterWhite420 said:


> Honestly, I don't know. These are good questions. But right now I don't have good answers.


Nor should you expect to. 

These things take time to figure out. Sometimes a lot of time. 

I agree with HM and your IC. You need to go on the trip.


----------



## WalterWhite420

sammy3 said:


> Be sure to tell her of the ons before you go on the trip! She needs to know the truth too. You are now no different than she. You too slept w another person, and she deserves to know that.
> 
> ~ sammy


Yes, I will tell her of that the next time we talk face to face.


----------



## sandc

tom67 said:


> It's better than big pharma I don't trust them.


I don't either. I don't toke but I'd be far more trusting of something mother nature developed than something made by combining chemicals with long unpronounceable names in a lab. Natural is better in my book. 

No offense to any chemists on the thread.


----------



## tom67

sandc said:


> I don't either. I don't toke but I'd be far more trusting of something mother nature developed than something made by combining chemicals with long unpronounceable names in a lab. Natural is better in my book.
> 
> No offense to any chemists on the thread.


Tried a water bong once I thought I burned my lungs.
But yes you see commercials from lawyers if you took this or took that you may be entitled to compensation.
Or the drug commercials where one of the side effects may be death.
Yea give me some of that.


----------



## WalterWhite420

sandc said:


> I don't either. I don't toke but I'd be far more trusting of something mother nature developed than something made by combining chemicals with long unpronounceable names in a lab. Natural is better in my book.
> 
> No offense to any chemists on the thread.


Natural is WAY better. One of the biggest financial-supporting opponents of medical marijuana legalization over the years has been BigPharma. They would rather have you addicted to their Oxycontin and other opiates than to get natural, non-addictive pain relief.


----------



## tom67

WalterWhite420 said:


> Natural is WAY better. One of the biggest financial-supporting opponents of medical marijuana legalization over the years has been BigPharma. They would rather have you addicted to their Oxycontin and other opiates than to get natural, non-addictive pain relief.


Through UN's codex alimentarius they have already tried restricting herbals and vitamins and their dosage.
End hijack sorry.


----------



## WalterWhite420

I just called my wife. I said there was something I needed to tell her. And I told her I’d had a recent ONS hookup with a woman I met at a bar. She immediately said (paraphrasing):

“I don’t care. I figured you probably had at some point over these past few months. I was prepared to hear that. But I don’t care, because I drove you to it. It’s my fault. I still love you endlessly no matter what.”

I then told her I was concerned that if I gave in to her, she might interpret that as weakness. She said there was no way that would happen, since she has been the one chasing me to R all these months since DDay.

I then asked her if she had been with any OM since DDay. She said no, not physically or emotionally or any other way, and that she would be glad for me to ask her that during a polygraph.

I asked her if she had any other contact with THE OM since DDay. She said he doggedly pursued contact, but she emphatically refused, and that she would be glad for me to ask her that during a polygraph.

I told her I was still unsure about Pasadena, and I’d need another day to think about it. She said that was fine, she would reschedule our flight for Sunday.

By then she was crying heavily and said “Jack, we can start over, keep all the good memories, and eliminate the bad ones. I’ll make sure you won’t regret it. Please give us another chance." 

I said “maybe”. And told her she could come to the house tonight and talk. She’ll be here at 9:00PM.

I’m done, aren’t I?


----------



## Graywolf2

sammy3 said:


> Be sure to tell her of the ons before you go on the trip! She needs to know the truth too. *You are now no different than she. *You too slept w another person, and she deserves to know that.
> 
> ~ sammy


I agree that he should inform her of his ONS, but holy crap. I suppose that the USA was no different than Japan after we attacked them following Pearl Harbor. Both side had committed war. :scratchhead: 

Also, if he voluntary tells her the truth, he will be better than she is. He had to discover the truth for himself. If he doesn’t tell her and she discovers the truth on her own, THEN he is no different than she. Even then, she did it first.


----------



## sandc

WalterWhite420 said:


> I just called my wife. I said there was something I needed to tell her. And I told her I’d had a recent ONS hookup with a woman I met at a bar. She immediately said (paraphrasing):
> 
> “I don’t care. I figured you probably had at some point over these past few months. I was prepared to hear that. But I don’t care, because I drove you to it. It’s my fault. I still love you endlessly no matter what.”
> 
> I then told her I was concerned that if I gave in to her, she might interpret that as weakness. She said there was no way that would happen, since she has been the one chasing me to R all these months since DDay.
> 
> I then asked her if she had been with any OM since DDay. She said no, not physically or emotionally or any other way, and that she would be glad for me to ask her that during a polygraph.
> 
> I asked her if she had any other contact with THE OM since DDay. She said he doggedly pursued contact, but she emphatically refused, and that she would be glad for me to ask her that during a polygraph.
> 
> I told her I was still unsure about Pasadena, and I’d need another day to think about it. She said that was fine, she would reschedule our flight for Sunday.
> 
> By then she was crying heavily and said “Jack, we can start over, keep all the good memories, and eliminate the bad ones. I’ll make sure you won’t regret it. Please give us another chance."
> 
> I said “maybe”. And told her she could come to the house tonight and talk. She’ll be here at 9:00PM.
> 
> I’m done, aren’t I?


Yeah. Pretty much. 

But some advice. Don't ask her anything about you. Don't ever ask her if you're being weak, THAT is weak. You are in the driver's seat now. Make your terms clear. Hold nothing back. You still need to know WHY. She needs to be able to describe that to you. When she knows why then she can get at the root of whatever is broken in her that caused her to do this.

Look you've made your decision, some will believe it's a bad idea, some won't. I support whatever you feel is best for you. the decision doesn't have to be set in stone today. You can tell her, "I don't know if this is going to work or not" but let her keep working on R with you. You can still D her, and let her work on R with you. That's the whole thing about you being in the driver's seat. YOU get to decide what you want. Not her, not us, YOU!


----------



## just got it 55

WalterWhite420 said:


> I just called my wife. I said there was something I needed to tell her. And I told her I’d had a recent ONS hookup with a woman I met at a bar. She immediately said (paraphrasing):
> 
> “I don’t care. I figured you probably had at some point over these past few months. I was prepared to hear that. But I don’t care, because I drove you to it. It’s my fault. I still love you endlessly no matter what.”
> 
> I then told her I was concerned that if I gave in to her, she might interpret that as weakness. She said there was no way that would happen, since she has been the one chasing me to R all these months since DDay.
> 
> I then asked her if she had been with any OM since DDay. She said no, not physically or emotionally or any other way, and that she would be glad for me to ask her that during a polygraph.
> 
> I asked her if she had any other contact with THE OM since DDay. She said he doggedly pursued contact, but she emphatically refused, and that she would be glad for me to ask her that during a polygraph.
> 
> I told her I was still unsure about Pasadena, and I’d need another day to think about it. She said that was fine, she would reschedule our flight for Sunday.
> 
> By then she was crying heavily and said “Jack, we can start over, keep all the good memories, and eliminate the bad ones. I’ll make sure you won’t regret it. Please give us another chance."
> 
> I said “maybe”. And told her she could come to the house tonight and talk. She’ll be here at 9:00PM.
> 
> I’m done, aren’t I?


No Jack Hopefuly you are just re starting

No way to know unless you try

55


----------



## WalterWhite420

happyman64 said:


> Walter
> 
> Your IC is a wise person.
> 
> Go on the trip. Because if you don't you will forever regret it.
> 
> I do believe your wife is remorseful. It is a start.
> 
> I do believe your wife loves you and you love her.
> 
> For now it is all you need.
> 
> Go.
> 
> HM
> 
> PS
> When you see her tonight ask her the truly deep questions. The first one should be "If you love me so much then how did you let yourself have an affair?"
> 
> Then listen Walter. What you are going to realize is that her affair had very little to do with you.
> 
> The 2nd question should be "What are you going to do to assure me and yourself that you will never hurt our marriage again?"
> 
> Listen.....
> 
> Only you can decide if she is worth a 2nd "leap of faith".
> 
> Good Luck
> Stay cool.
> Stay calm.
> Passion is ok.
> 
> PSS
> The fact she had to get a restraining order against the posom just proves again how the wayward affairs down.


I think you're right. And I think everyone on this web site, my IC, my wife, and myself all know that I'm going on the trip. And I'm sure that football will be the last thing I remember about it.


----------



## MovingAhead

Brother, you will have to decide R or D 1000 times before it is over and you may change your mind 1000 times in 1 day. It is your decision so the only right decision is your decision.

To be honest I root for the people who R. The choice is totally yours.


----------



## WalterWhite420

sandc said:


> I think the letter overall was very good. The only thing I noticed was missing was WHY. Did she attempt to explain WHY in the letter? WHY is going to be very important going forward. You're a chemist. You know it's not enough to know what caused a reaction, you need to understand why the reaction happened.


We talked about the why in our first attempt at R, just after DDay.

But it's something I need to discuss with her again. For sure.


----------



## Tron

WalterWhite420 said:


> I said “maybe”. And told her she could come to the house tonight and talk. She’ll be here at 9:00PM.
> 
> I’m done, aren’t I?


Toast.


----------



## WalterWhite420

I've got t-bones and potatoes ready to cook. I'm actually hungry and truly craving food for the first time in a very long time. She'll be here at 9:00PM.

I know many of you think I'm just a p-whipped weakling. But I dated a lot of women in high school and college, and none ever compared to her. None even came close. Not in looks, or smarts, or humor, or just meshing with me. She's the total package. I'm not bragging, but imagine Mila Kunis with the brain of Marie Curie and the sex drive of Marilyn Monroe and the sense of humor of Carol Burnette. I know that's an exaggeration, but it's truth to me. In my admittedly biased estimation, a woman like this doesn't come along but once every million lifetimes or so.

But she cheated. And I have to live with that. For the rest of my life. And I don't know if I can. But right now, I think I've got to find out. If it fails, it fails.


----------



## Gomerpyle

WalterWhite420 said:


> As for our favorite herb...


Rationalization doesn't make it legal, and the other points were studiously ignored, which in total resulted in missing the entire point that good people make bad decisions, and we can also trump up these super judgemental framings to make things seem worse than they are.

The majority of marriages have affairs. That doesn't make it right but it sure ought to put a perspective on how horrible we make the other person out to be.


----------



## Philat

WalterWhite420 said:


> I've got t-bones and potatoes ready to cook. I'm actually hungry and truly craving food for the first time in a very long time. She'll be here at 9:00PM.
> 
> I know many of you think I'm just a p-whipped weakling. But I dated a lot of women in high school and college, and none ever compared to her. None even came close. Not in looks, or smarts, or humor, or just meshing with me. She's the total package. I'm not bragging, but imagine Mila Kunis with the brain of Marie Currie and the sex drive of Marilyn Monroe and the sense of humor of Carol Burnette. I know that's an exaggeration, but it's truth to me. In my admittedly biased estimation, a woman like this doesn't come along but once every million lifetimes or so.
> 
> But she cheated. And I have to live with that. For the rest of my life. And I don't know if I can. But right now, I think I've got to find out. If it fails, it fails.


You've come a long way from this four days ago:

_
Originally Posted by happyman64: 
And Walter I totally agree with your therapist that you might secretly want to reconcile with your wife.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with feeling like that.

*After all the knowledgeable people I've heard say that (my IC and several people on this web site), I'm starting to believe it. But I'm resolved to never let it happen.* _

Lots of changes in a short time after almost a year!


----------



## WalterWhite420

Philat said:


> You've come a long way from this four days ago:
> 
> _
> Originally Posted by happyman64:
> And Walter I totally agree with your therapist that you might secretly want to reconcile with your wife.
> There is absolutely nothing wrong with feeling like that.
> 
> *After all the knowledgeable people I've heard say that (my IC and several people on this web site), I'm starting to believe it. But I'm resolved to never let it happen.* _
> 
> Lots of changes in a short time after almost a year!


Yes, my IC warned me of the emotional roller coaster. He knew all along that I felt this way, but that I was suppressing it. I never believed it, but he pushed me bit by bit in the direction he knew I wanted to go.


----------



## Philat

WalterWhite420 said:


> Yes, my IC warned me of the emotional roller coaster. He knew all along that I felt this way, but that I was suppressing it. I never believed it, but he pushed me bit by bit in the direction he knew I wanted to go.


Yes, it's very difficult. So much drama!


----------



## WalterWhite420

Gomerpyle said:


> Rationalization doesn't make it legal, and the other points were studiously ignored, which in total resulted in missing the entire point that good people make bad decisions, and we can also trump up these super judgemental framings to make things seem worse than they are.
> 
> The majority of marriages have affairs. That doesn't make it right but it sure ought to put a perspective on how horrible we make the other person out to be.


OK, I probably missed your well-intended point. I apologize. I'll re-read your post.


----------



## 12345Person

You have a very good counselor that he sees you during the holidays, mine doesn't.


----------



## 10th Engineer Harrison

Like I said before, your old marriage is dead. Whether you recover or not, you don't want that old marriage back. It's going 2 take some doing for her 2 convince you she won't cheat again. Like was said, she needs 2 explain why she felt entitled, and why she doesn't feel entitled now.

Also, how she plans 2 resist temptations in the fu2re.

Either those things, or find a way 2 be content being GF/BF from here on out, with no promises of long term commitments. 

It's been 11 years since d-day for me. We recovered, but our marriage is nothing like what it used 2 be. Thank God!

-ol' 2long


----------



## WalterWhite420

She's knocking...wish us luck and honesty...good night...


----------



## nuclearnightmare

sandc said:


> Just adding that you wife is showing far more remorse than most. For what it's worth.


Again, I think that "showing remorse" is not the same as being truly remorseful. Walter is the only one able to judge, but some people have an uncanny ability to mimic any emotion they choose. And the ones that love them are the people mostly easily fooled. A person like this can sometimes just care how they look to others, and they might think getting divorced makes them look bad, hurts their image 

I do like the D then (maybe) R option though......


----------



## Philat

WalterWhite420 said:


> She's knocking...wish us luck and honesty...good night...


Tune in again tomorrow...


----------



## thummper

I think all of us guys live in fear of something like thing happening to us!!! I'm just sorry you had to see your wife in a situation like that. I can't even imagine how you must feel. God love you, brother!


----------



## thummper

BashfulBull said:


> I'm the most peace loving gentle bear you will ever meet, and I beat my xWW's OM to a pulp.
> 
> I managed my anger quite well that night. I focused it and laid him out. He was a lowdown POS drug dealer/addict/ex-con. It felt good and I won't apologize for it.


Bashful, I think you did exactly what we would all like to think we would do if we were faced with the same situation. Unfortunately, all of us probably aren't built to follow through.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

The Middleman said:


> Question for you. If you go on this trip and you "discover" that you want reconcile, what do you think you are going to get in return from her for the pain and suffering she put you through. Would you feel like you have been had? Would you feel that she got away with this "Scott Free"? Would it eat at you for years? How would all that and taking her back reconcile with your sense of self-respect, which you seem to have a lot of.
> 
> I'm not asking this to be a wise a$$, just pointing out somethings that your IC wont. This trip will make you emotionally vulnerable to consider forgiving someone who took sperm injections form another guy for a year! (I'll never forget your Singer Sewing Machine line). Just by reading your posts, I don't know how you can do it.


I agree. Walter do you really want to give up the chance to see if there isn't someone else out there you can fall in love with? 3 years from now she might be with another guy, but you also.might be with another woman. One that has never humiliated you.

BTW did her letter answer the question WHY? Seems like a big one to gloss over.


----------



## jim123

Jack,

Go to the game but get your answers.

It is ok to forgive. You will not find someone who loves you more.

If you can overcome this you can have a very special M.

You have stood up for yourself. Whatever you decide is due to your strength,


----------



## nuclearnightmare

tom67 said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree:
> She did do the right things so far.
> Something to think about we don't see people like her that often here.
> Sigh-good luck bro.


...We don't see too many waywards that bring the affair into the marital bedroom either........


----------



## nuclearnightmare

sammy3 said:


> Be sure to tell her of the ons before you go on the trip! She needs to know the truth too. You are now no different than she. You too slept w another person, and she deserves to know that.
> 
> ~ sammy


No no no. Was Britain "no better" than Germany in WWII? They were both a war after all.....c'mon.


----------



## sammy3

Question? When did you start living apart? And did you agree its ok to to sleep w others during the time? If so great! No need to fess up.. 

But if you agreed not to, then it's another story... 

~sammy 

Post above, your funny!  Said in a playful tone


----------



## thummper

Walter you're conflicted about your future with her because you're still DEEPLY in love with her. Give her a chance. I think you'll be glad you did.


----------



## tom67

WalterWhite420 said:


> I've got t-bones and potatoes ready to cook. I'm actually hungry and truly craving food for the first time in a very long time. She'll be here at 9:00PM.
> 
> I know many of you think I'm just a p-whipped weakling. But I dated a lot of women in high school and college, and none ever compared to her. None even came close. Not in looks, or smarts, or humor, or just meshing with me. She's the total package. I'm not bragging, but imagine Mila Kunis with the brain of Marie Curie and the sex drive of Marilyn Monroe and the sense of humor of Carol Burnette. I know that's an exaggeration, but it's truth to me. In my admittedly biased estimation, a woman like this doesn't come along but once every million lifetimes or so.
> 
> But she cheated. And I have to live with that. For the rest of my life. And I don't know if I can. But right now, I think I've got to find out. If it fails, it fails.


You are doing fine imo.
Atleast you tried if it doesn't work.
And your former bf bil he is still a doosh even if you get back together.:lol:


----------



## 12345Person

Usually, it takes 2+ year(s) to see things develop this fast with posters, but you have done it in a few months, and a few days only on this forum.

I am very happy about that.


----------



## dogman

Anonymous Person said:


> Usually, it takes 2+ year(s) to see things develop this fast with posters, but you have done it in a few months, and a few days only on this forum.
> 
> I am very happy about that.


Indeed, it seems to be unwinding very quickly. Even appointments with the IC are available exactly when they are needed. That never happened for me unless I used the suicide hotline, then it was "can you come in later today?" Haha! Any other time it took weeks to get in.


----------



## happyman64

It "unwinds" very quickly when you have a BS that:

A. Goes truly dark.
B. Ignores the wayward spouse to a very high degree.
C. Any meetings that take place are conducted in a no nonsense fashion with little or no small talk about their relationship or future. 
D. When you have a wayward spouse that is remorseful as close to day one if not on day one.

I think it is in Walters favor his wife seems "uber" remorseful, her OM was a wack job and Walter has balls of steel.

Walter now is having a hard time lowering his "wall" and that is understandable with the "wall" he built to protect himself.

Let's hope him and his wife can reconnect and sort this mess out together.

HM


----------



## Philat

happyman64 said:


> It "unwinds" very quickly when you have a BS that:
> 
> A. Goes truly dark.
> B. Ignores the wayward spouse to a very high degree.
> C. Any meetings that take place are conducted in a no nonsense fashion with little or no small talk about their relationship or future.
> D. When you have a wayward spouse that is remorseful as close to day one if not on day one.
> 
> I think it is in Walters favor his wife seems "uber" remorseful, her OM was a wack job and Walter has balls of steel.
> 
> Walter now is having a hard time lowering his "wall" and that is understandable with the "wall" he built to protect himself.
> 
> Let's hope him and his wife can reconnect and sort this mess out together.
> 
> HM


Truly an unusual confluence of events, and very fortunate for OP.


----------



## WalterWhite420

Well, I don't have much time for a post; have a haircut appt.

But we had an incredible night. She presented a very impressive and organized R plan for us. We had a productive night of conversation and of course loving. We're going to Pasadena tomorrow.

I'll be able to go into more detail later today. Thanks all.


----------



## The Middleman

WalterWhite420 said:


> Well, I don't have much time for a post; have a haircut appt.
> 
> But we had an incredible night. She presented a very impressive and organized R plan for us. We had a productive night of conversation and of course loving. We're going to Pasadena tomorrow.
> 
> I'll be able to go into more detail later today. Thanks all.


Well, if you are going to go down this road at least make sure you are getting "compensated" in some form or another for the emotional hell she put you through. In my opinion "I'll be a good girl from now on" (that's usually all WWs want to offer when reconciling) just doesn't cut it. Above all, always think with your head and not your emotions (or that other head). There is a lot more I'd like to say, but it probably won't fly with the moderators.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Gomerpyle said:


> Rationalization doesn't make it legal, and the other points were studiously ignored, which in total resulted in missing the entire point that good people make bad decisions, and we can also trump up these super judgemental framings to make things seem worse than they are.
> 
> The majority of marriages have affairs. That doesn't make it right but it sure ought to put a perspective on how horrible we make the other person out to be.


The majority of wives do not.


----------



## Graywolf2

Everyone posts about how unusual Walter’s situation is. I think I’ve figured out the dynamics.

Due to the way the affair was discovered and Walter’s reaction to it, Walter’s wife is in “The Fog” over her husband. Walter’s manly actions got her juices flowing and now he’s the perfect man in her eyes.

There will be hysterical bonding on steroids. Walter, get your heart checked before you go. Otherwise she might f**k you to death. I think the odds are even money that Walter will never see the game.

Let’s review:

1.	WS had a f**k buddy for over a year for some reason.

2.	Walter takes OM out with the garbage and kicks WS out.

3.	Walter won’t talk to WS.

4.	The OM immediately becomes a piece of crap to WS and she gets a restraining order.

5.	OM gets beat up, loses his job and maybe his wife over a woman who will no longer talk to him. (Sucks to be OM).

6.	Walter exposes her in very graphic detail to everyone and she doesn’t care. Walter is such a man.

7.	WS is finically independent and sill will do anything to get him back. Walter is such a man.

8.	Walter had a ONS and she not only doesn’t care, she expected it. It’s what a manly man would do.

9.	He easily found a woman for a ONS. On course he did. All women want Walter, just like WS.

10.	Walter told her about the ONS. Walter is a classy guy, unlike OM and WS.

No matter how great things are I might still get a D.



Graywolf2 said:


> If she starts pressing you to fully R, tell her that you can’t risk being hurt that much again. That way you nicely change the subject to what she did in a non-accusatory way. It also acknowledges how much you loved her before her affair and reminds her of how much she lost.


If you do or do not D and get to a point that you want a monogamous relationship, I would make each other a promise. 

I wouldn’t promise to never cheat again because your wife already made that promise and broke it. I would promise each other that if you’re ever tempted to stray, you would tell your partner before it happens. Tell her that you never want walk into a room like that ever again.


----------



## Singledude21

Graywolf2 said:


> Due to the way the affair was discovered and Walter’s reaction to it, Walter’s wife is in “The Fog” over her husband. Walter’s manly actions got her juices flowing and now he’s the perfect man in her eyes.


Probably a gift and a curse. This fog doesn't need lifting cause its not wrong. It's ok to be lustfully in love with your husband. Problem is what happens if she snaps her own fog....


----------



## Lostinthought61

regardless of what you read from others here and else where, you took a stand you brought her to the table of reality....you are not weak for going on this trip, you are still in negotiations, no one has left the table because both parties can see that this partnership might be better and stronger in the future together then apart...as long as each party has agreed and accepted the terms, as i see it you still have the power to walk away and know that you have done everything to try and keep the marriage together. your therapist is right you don't want to look back and have your stubbornness (justifiable i realize) to keep you from long term happiness. the heart wants what the heart wants. i know your hurting and in a way she is too (at least her letter expresses that) now she could be an awesome liar but i think you know in your heart the truth. i truly wish you a happy weekend of openness and communications


----------



## thummper

WalterWhite420 said:


> Well, I don't have much time for a post; have a haircut appt.
> 
> But we had an incredible night. She presented a very impressive and organized R plan for us. We had a productive night of conversation and of course loving. We're going to Pasadena tomorrow.
> 
> I'll be able to go into more detail later today. Thanks all.


Geeze, Walter! I've got my fingers crossed so hard for you two. If I were a puppy my tail would be wagging! :smthumbup: I think she KNOWS what a great guy she has in you. She knows she almost lost you and she's gonna fight like hell to keep her husband. I know in life there are very few happy endings, but I hope this is the exception. Good luck in Pasadena!!!!!


----------



## WalterWhite420

When my wife arrived last night, I was scared. She was drop-dead gorgeous, dressed in all my favorite colors, styles, etc. I pretty much knew I was done for then. She also had a large manila envelope with her.

We made small talk and ate dinner. I was really hungry for a change.

After we finished eating, there was a long silence. I looked at her across the table and asked if she was ready to really talk. She said yes. So I asked the following questions:

Me: If I agree to attempt R, are you prepared to answer the same tough questions over, and over, and over, and over again, as many times as I ask them? The whys, the details I must know and face, etc?
She: Yes.

Me: Are you prepared to see me sometimes take a small step back after a large step forward in my progress?
Her: Yes.

Me: How do I know you won’t do something like that again?
Her: At the present, I know there’s no reason for you to believe I won’t. But promise I won’t, and I promise I will soon make you believe and know it’s true.

Me: Are you prepared for the real possibility that I may once again crumble from hurt and decide to D anyway? 
Her: No, but if that’s what you ultimately decide to do, I won’t contest the D. But I would still try to win you back after the D.

Me: Are you prepared to take a polygraph anytime I want you to? And are you prepared for a permanent breakup if you lie even once to me about anything?
Her: Yes.

Me: Why do you want to R with me, since you saw fit to go outside our marriage? You don’t need my money, and you could have most any man you want. Why do you want to R with me, even when you know how hard it’s going to be for us to succeed?
Her: Because you complete me like no other man ever could. No one can love me like you can. You’re the only one who would do anything for me; die for me. You’re the only man I’ve ever known that has been 100% there for his wife at all times. I need you.

Then I said “OK, I’ll go to Pasadena”. She burst into tears and cried for a long time. Then she said she had some things to show me.

She went and got her manila envelope and took some papers out.

She gave me a sheet of paper that had all her passwords written down. Phone, emails (home and work). She then presented her plan for our R. She’s “Type A” all the way.

She wants us to sell our house (too big and too much upkeep, inside and out) and move into a smaller home that requires less upkeep, so we can spend more time concentrating on one another.

She wants us both to take a 4 month leave of absence from work and work daily together on our marriage. We’re currently both in IC, and of course she (and I) want to take MC as well.

She wants us to soon return to the Auburn University campus for a few days and relive all our most special moments together. The day we met, our first date and kiss, the first time we made love, our first marijuana sex, and graduation night (the night I proposed to her).

She wants us to take a creative writing class together at a local college. While at Auburn and for many years after, we wrote long, passionate love letters to one another. She wants us to again enjoy writing to one another in that manner. 

Both of us still have the many love letters we’ve written one another over the years. She wants us to reread those together, a few every day.

She wants to exchange new vows that we write ourselves, at a recreation of our wedding, in front of our entire family and friends.

I was impressed. She came and sat on the couch with me, put her arms around me, I melted, and we had a great night.


----------



## thummper

WalterWhite420 said:


> When my wife arrived last night, I was scared. She was drop-dead gorgeous, dressed in all my favorite colors, styles, etc. I pretty much knew I was done for then. She also had a large manila envelope with her.
> 
> We made small talk and ate dinner. I was really hungry for a change.
> 
> After we finished eating, there was a long silence. I looked at her across the table and asked if she was ready to really talk. She said yes. So I asked the following questions:
> 
> Me: If I agree to attempt R, are you prepared to answer the same tough questions over, and over, and over, and over again, as many times as I ask them? The whys, the details I must know and face, etc?
> She: Yes.
> 
> Me: Are you prepared to see me sometimes take a small step back after a large step forward in my progress?
> Her: Yes.
> 
> Me: How do I know you won’t do something like that again?
> Her: At the present, I know there’s no reason for you to believe I won’t. But promise I won’t, and I promise I will soon make you believe and know it’s true.
> 
> Me: Are you prepared for the real possibility that I may once again crumble from hurt and decide to D anyway?
> Her: No, but if that’s what you ultimately decide to do, I won’t contest the D. But I would still try to win you back after the D.
> 
> Me: Are you prepared to take a polygraph anytime I want you to? And are you prepared for a permanent breakup if you lie even once to me about anything?
> Her: Yes.
> 
> Me: Why do you want to R with me, since you saw fit to go outside our marriage? You don’t need my money, and you could have most any man you want. Why do you want to R with me, even when you know how hard it’s going to be for us to succeed?
> Her: Because you complete me like no other man ever could. No one can love me like you can. You’re the only one who would do anything for me; die for me. You’re the only man I’ve ever known that has been 100% there for his wife at all times. I need you.
> 
> Then I said “OK, I’ll go to Pasadena”. She burst into tears and cried for a long time. Then she said she had some things to show me.
> 
> She went and got her manila envelope and took some papers out.
> 
> She gave me a sheet of paper that had all her passwords written down. Phone, emails (home and work). She then presented her plan for our R. She’s “Type A” all the way.
> 
> She wants us to sell our house (too big and too much upkeep, inside and out) and move into a smaller home that requires less upkeep, so we can spend more time concentrating on one another.
> 
> She wants us both to take a 4 month leave of absence from work and work daily together on our marriage. We’re currently both in IC, and of course she (and I) want to take MC as well.
> 
> She wants us to soon return to the Auburn University campus for a few days and relive all our most special moments together. The day we met, our first date and kiss, the first time we made love, our first marijuana sex, and graduation night (the night I proposed to her).
> 
> She wants us to take a creative writing class together at a local college. While at Auburn and for many years after, we wrote long, passionate love letters to one another. She wants us to again enjoy writing to one another in that manner.
> 
> Both of us still have the many love letters we’ve written one another over the years. She wants us to reread those together, a few every day.
> 
> She wants to exchange new vows that we write ourselves, at a recreation of our wedding, in front of our entire family and friends.
> 
> I was impressed. She came and sat on the couch with me, put her arms around me, I melted, and we had a great night.


I guess it's not such a bad thing for an old guy like me to get tears in his eyes after hearing a scene like this described. The putting her arms around you really got to me. Many happy years ahead, Walter. :smthumbup:


----------



## raven3321

You big softie! I love it. We all knew this was going to happen....I'm very happy for you. By the way, she sounds like a very classy lady. I think she's worth another go. But you do need to find out the "why" she did it. Whatever her motivation was at the time needs some looking at to prevent any future temptations. Good for you Walter.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Well done Walter. Also you should thank your counsellor. He sounds like a smart guy.


----------



## 10th Engineer Harrison

Graywolf2 said:


> Everyone posts about how unusual Walter’s situation is. I think I’ve figured out the dynamics.
> 
> Due to the way the affair was discovered and Walter’s reaction to it, Walter’s wife is in “The Fog” over her husband. Walter’s manly actions got her juices flowing and now he’s the perfect man in her eyes.
> 
> There will be hysterical bonding on steroids. Walter, get your heart checked before you go. Otherwise she might f**k you to death. I think the odds are even money that Walter will never see the game.
> 
> Let’s review:
> 
> 1.	WS had a f**k buddy for over a year for some reason.
> 
> 2.	Walter takes OM out with the garbage and kicks WS out.
> 
> 3.	Walter won’t talk to WS.
> 
> 4.	The OM immediately becomes a piece of crap to WS and she gets a restraining order.
> 
> 5.	OM gets beat up, loses his job and maybe his wife over a woman who will no longer talk to him. (Sucks to be OM).
> 
> 6.	Walter exposes her in very graphic detail to everyone and she doesn’t care. Walter is such a man.
> 
> 7.	WS is finically independent and sill will do anything to get him back. Walter is such a man.
> 
> 8.	Walter had a ONS and she not only doesn’t care, she expected it. It’s what a manly man would do.
> 
> 9.	He easily found a woman for a ONS. On course he did. All women want Walter, just like WS.
> 
> 10.	Walter told her about the ONS. Walter is a classy guy, unlike OM and WS.
> 
> No matter how great things are I might still get a D.
> 
> 
> 
> If you do or do not D and get to a point that you want a monogamous relationship, I would make each other a promise.
> 
> I wouldn’t promise to never cheat again because your wife already made that promise and broke it. I would promise each other that if you’re ever tempted to stray, you would tell your partner before it happens. Tell her that you never want walk into a room like that ever again.


This is all good, and something I wish I'd done. But the simple truth is that she broke his trust so dramatically that what could any promise not 2 stray possibly mean? 

I think that, instead of making promises, she signs a prenup before they remarry (assuming they get DV'd AND remarry), so if/when something like this happens again, it's not so impactful.

Sounds cold and clinical. Which is how I think WW will feel about marriage after the romantic high and hysterical bonding fades in2 historical bonding.

Best of luck, and by all means have fun in Pasadena
-ol' 2long


----------



## Singledude21

Some people have affairs simply because the option smacked them in the face. And its that simple. Not cause of feelings of resentment, entitlement, or other hidden issues in a relationship. Sh%t literally just happens, or in this case lust just happens.

Up to you whether you want to give her a second chance. Me personally, I'd test her. File for the D anyway and see how she responds. If the D goes through, she's still there, then I'd give the relationship a true second chance and a potential second marriage.


----------



## Philat

WalterWhite420 said:


> When my wife arrived last night, I was scared. She was drop-dead gorgeous, dressed in all my favorite colors, styles, etc. I pretty much knew I was done for then. She also had a large manila envelope with her.
> 
> We made small talk and ate dinner. I was really hungry for a change.
> 
> After we finished eating, there was a long silence.  I looked at her across the table and asked if she was ready to really talk. She said yes. So I asked the following questions:
> 
> Me: If I agree to attempt R, are you prepared to answer the same tough questions over, and over, and over, and over again, as many times as I ask them? The whys, the details I must know and face, etc?
> She: Yes.
> 
> Me: Are you prepared to see me sometimes take a small step back after a large step forward in my progress?
> Her: Yes.
> 
> Me: How do I know you won’t do something like that again?
> Her: At the present, I know there’s no reason for you to believe I won’t. But promise I won’t, and I promise I will soon make you believe and know it’s true.
> 
> Me: Are you prepared for the real possibility that I may once again crumble from hurt and decide to D anyway?
> Her: No, but if that’s what you ultimately decide to do, I won’t contest the D. But I would still try to win you back after the D.
> 
> Me: Are you prepared to take a polygraph anytime I want you to? And are you prepared for a permanent breakup if you lie even once to me about anything?
> Her: Yes.
> 
> Me: Why do you want to R with me, since you saw fit to go outside our marriage? You don’t need my money, and you could have most any man you want. Why do you want to R with me, even when you know how hard it’s going to be for us to succeed?
> Her: Because you complete me like no other man ever could. No one can love me like you can. You’re the only one who would do anything for me; die for me. You’re the only man I’ve ever known that has been 100% there for his wife at all times. I need you.
> 
> Then I said “OK, I’ll go to Pasadena”. She burst into tears and cried for a long time. Then she said she had some things to show me.
> 
> She went and got her manila envelope and took some papers out.
> 
> She gave me a sheet of paper that had all her passwords written down. Phone, emails (home and work). She then presented her plan for our R. She’s “Type A” all the way.
> 
> She wants us to sell our house (too big and too much upkeep, inside and out) and move into a smaller home that requires less upkeep, so we can spend more time concentrating on one another.
> 
> She wants us both to take a 4 month leave of absence from work and work daily together on our marriage. We’re currently both in IC, and of course she (and I) want to take MC as well.
> 
> She wants us to soon return to the Auburn University campus for a few days and relive all our most special moments together. The day we met, our first date and kiss, the first time we made love, our first marijuana sex, and graduation night (the night I proposed to her).
> 
> She wants us to take a creative writing class together at a local college. While at Auburn and for many years after, we wrote long, passionate love letters to one another. She wants us to again enjoy writing to one another in that manner.
> 
> Both of us still have the many love letters we’ve written one another over the years. She wants us to reread those together, a few every day.
> 
> She wants to exchange new vows that we write ourselves, at a recreation of our wedding, in front of our entire family and friends.
> 
> I was impressed. She came and sat on the couch with me, put her arms around me, I melted, and we had a great night.


Another truly astounding development. TAM heads are spinning.


----------



## Philat

Graywolf2 said:


> Everyone posts about how unusual Walter’s situation is. I think I’ve figured out the dynamics.
> 
> Due to the way the affair was discovered and Walter’s reaction to it, Walter’s wife is in “The Fog” over her husband. Walter’s manly actions got her juices flowing and now he’s the perfect man in her eyes.
> 
> There will be hysterical bonding on steroids. Walter, get your heart checked before you go. Otherwise she might f**k you to death. I think the odds are even money that Walter will never see the game.
> 
> Let’s review:
> 
> 1.	WS had a f**k buddy for over a year for some reason.
> 
> 2.	Walter takes OM out with the garbage and kicks WS out.
> 
> 3.	Walter won’t talk to WS.
> 
> 4.	The OM immediately becomes a piece of crap to WS and she gets a restraining order.
> 
> 5.	OM gets beat up, loses his job and maybe his wife over a woman who will no longer talk to him. (Sucks to be OM).
> 
> 6.	Walter exposes her in very graphic detail to everyone and she doesn’t care. Walter is such a man.
> 
> 7.	WS is finically independent and sill will do anything to get him back. Walter is such a man.
> 
> 8.	Walter had a ONS and she not only doesn’t care, she expected it. It’s what a manly man would do.
> 
> 9.	He easily found a woman for a ONS. On course he did. All women want Walter, just like WS.
> 
> 10.	Walter told her about the ONS. Walter is a classy guy, unlike OM and WS.
> 
> No matter how great things are I might still get a D.
> 
> 
> 
> If you do or do not D and get to a point that you want a monogamous relationship, I would make each other a promise.
> 
> I wouldn’t promise to never cheat again because your wife already made that promise and broke it. I would promise each other that if you’re ever tempted to stray, you would tell your partner before it happens. Tell her that you never want walk into a room like that ever again.


There might even be a simpler explanation. But never mind.


----------



## dogman

Post nip agreement for sure. Make her really not want to cheat...again.


----------



## 3putt

dogman said:


> Post *nip* agreement for sure. Make her really not want to cheat...again.


Sorry, but that could be one of the best typos I've ever seen.


----------



## just got it 55

WalterWhite420 said:


> When my wife arrived last night, I was scared. She was drop-dead gorgeous, dressed in all my favorite colors, styles, etc. I pretty much knew I was done for then. She also had a large manila envelope with her.
> 
> We made small talk and ate dinner. I was really hungry for a change.
> 
> After we finished eating, there was a long silence. I looked at her across the table and asked if she was ready to really talk. She said yes. So I asked the following questions:
> 
> Me: If I agree to attempt R, are you prepared to answer the same tough questions over, and over, and over, and over again, as many times as I ask them? The whys, the details I must know and face, etc?
> She: Yes.
> 
> Me: Are you prepared to see me sometimes take a small step back after a large step forward in my progress?
> Her: Yes.
> 
> Me: How do I know you won’t do something like that again?
> Her: At the present, I know there’s no reason for you to believe I won’t. But promise I won’t, and I promise I will soon make you believe and know it’s true.
> 
> Me: Are you prepared for the real possibility that I may once again crumble from hurt and decide to D anyway?
> Her: No, but if that’s what you ultimately decide to do, I won’t contest the D. But I would still try to win you back after the D.
> 
> Me: Are you prepared to take a polygraph anytime I want you to? And are you prepared for a permanent breakup if you lie even once to me about anything?
> Her: Yes.
> 
> Me: Why do you want to R with me, since you saw fit to go outside our marriage? You don’t need my money, and you could have most any man you want. Why do you want to R with me, even when you know how hard it’s going to be for us to succeed?
> Her: Because you complete me like no other man ever could. No one can love me like you can. You’re the only one who would do anything for me; die for me. You’re the only man I’ve ever known that has been 100% there for his wife at all times. I need you.
> 
> Then I said “OK, I’ll go to Pasadena”. She burst into tears and cried for a long time. Then she said she had some things to show me.
> 
> She went and got her manila envelope and took some papers out.
> 
> She gave me a sheet of paper that had all her passwords written down. Phone, emails (home and work). She then presented her plan for our R. She’s “Type A” all the way.
> 
> She wants us to sell our house (too big and too much upkeep, inside and out) and move into a smaller home that requires less upkeep, so we can spend more time concentrating on one another.
> 
> She wants us both to take a 4 month leave of absence from work and work daily together on our marriage. We’re currently both in IC, and of course she (and I) want to take MC as well.
> 
> She wants us to soon return to the Auburn University campus for a few days and relive all our most special moments together. The day we met, our first date and kiss, the first time we made love, our first marijuana sex, and graduation night (the night I proposed to her).
> 
> She wants us to take a creative writing class together at a local college. While at Auburn and for many years after, we wrote long, passionate love letters to one another. She wants us to again enjoy writing to one another in that manner.
> 
> Both of us still have the many love letters we’ve written one another over the years. She wants us to reread those together, a few every day.
> 
> She wants to exchange new vows that we write ourselves, at a recreation of our wedding, in front of our entire family and friends.
> 
> I was impressed. She came and sat on the couch with me, put her arms around me, I melted, and we had a great night.


Yup Walter your toast Hope this goes your way

Now the hard question

If your are everything she needs and wants 

Then why ?


----------



## sandc

WalterWhite420 said:


> She wants to exchange new vows that we write ourselves, at a recreation of our wedding, in front of our entire family and friends.


Great idea!! After you two D, and then date each other again, when you remarry, you two can do that. 

Okay, that was slightly tongue in cheek. I still vote for D as a consequence for her actions.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: My Living Hell*



just got it 55 said:


> Yup Walter your toast Hope this goes your way
> 
> Now the hard question
> 
> If your are everything she needs and wants
> 
> Then why ?


This is the elephant in the room. Try to ignore it and you get stepped on.


----------



## southernsurf

Do you work in big Pharma , little Pharma, biotech? 
So you are ~ 45 and a regular pot smoker, how is that possible, everyone drug tests.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

sandc said:


> Great idea!! After you two D, and then date each other again, when you remarry, you two can do that.
> 
> Okay, that was slightly tongue in cheek. I still vote for D as a consequence for her actions.


:iagree:
I also think you should plan a surprise for her right after you get back from Pasadena. A polygraph scheduled for her. Most important question being whether this is her only affair during your M. Will be interesting to see if her confidence skips a beat


----------



## sandc

southernsurf said:


> Do you work in big Pharma , little Pharma, biotech?
> So you are ~ 45 and a regular pot smoker, how is that possible, everyone drug tests.


My company says they can drug test us at any time. I took one when I joined. That was it. No further tests have ever been asked for.


----------



## tom67

bfree said:


> This is the elephant in the room. Try to ignore it and you get stepped on.


:iagree:
:iagree:
This is a great question.:scratchhead:

Otherwise she is really doing the heavy lifting.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

southernsurf said:


> Do you work in big Pharma , little Pharma, biotech?
> So you are ~ 45 and a regular pot smoker, how is that possible, everyone drug tests.


----------



## illwill

Something i noticed in her reply to why she wants to reconcile bothered me. She went on and on about what you do for her. Although none of this was good enough before. It sounded selfish to my jaded ears.

What is she willing to do for you? What can she offer other women who have not betrayed you cannot? Im not talking about putting up with triggers or being patient. Because this is now her job. How will she prove through deeds not words that you were not and never will be plan b again?

Ask her why is she worth the risk?

And take her off that pedestal. 

Divorce her anyway and put the burden on her to prove she is worthy.

You are a strong dude and you dont really need my advice, but either way keep your eyes peeled.

Good luck and enjoy your trip.


----------



## tom67

Plan 9 from OS said:


>


Pot stays in the fat cells in your body unlike coke and other water soluble drugs so instead of 3 days it tests can detect cannabis depending on the use, weeks from the last use.

Sounds like he has a cool job.
Good luck Walt.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

tom67 said:


> Pot stays in the fat cells in your body unlike coke and other water soluble drugs so instead of 3 days it tests can detect cannabis depending on the use, weeks from the last use.
> 
> Sounds like he has a cool job.
> Good luck Walt.


True, pot is detectable in urine up to 30 days if I'm not mistaken. Hair samples will give you back to a few months if I'm not mistaken. I think the point is that it calls a lot into question if the protocol is to randomly drug test employees working in pharma/biotech when the thread owner claims to be a regular smoker. That plus other things written in this thread seem - interesting...


----------



## tom67

Plan 9 from OS said:


> True, pot is detectable in urine up to 30 days if I'm not mistaken. Hair samples will give you back to a few months if I'm not mistaken. I think the point is that it calls a lot into question if the protocol is to randomly drug test employees working in pharma/biotech when the thread owner claims to be a regular smoker. That plus other things written in this thread seem - interesting...


:iagree:
Possible some companies may not test until they have a "reason" but yes in this economy I would not risk it so I get what you are saying.


----------



## sammy3

WalterWhite420 said:


> I just called my wife. I said there was something I needed to tell her. And I told her I’d had a recent ONS hookup with a woman I met at a bar. She immediately said (paraphrasing):
> 
> “I don’t care. I figured you probably had at some point over these past few months. I was prepared to hear that. But I don’t care, because I drove you to it. It’s my fault. I still love you endlessly no matter what.”
> 
> I then told her I was concerned that if I gave in to her, she might interpret that as weakness. She said there was no way that would happen, since she has been the one chasing me to R all these months since DDay.
> 
> I then asked her if she had been with any OM since DDay. She said no, not physically or emotionally or any other way, and that she would be glad for me to ask her that during a polygraph.
> 
> I asked her if she had any other contact with THE OM since DDay. She said he doggedly pursued contact, but she emphatically refused, and that she would be glad for me to ask her that during a polygraph.
> 
> I told her I was still unsure about Pasadena, and I’d need another day to think about it. She said that was fine, she would reschedule our flight for Sunday.
> 
> By then she was crying heavily and said “Jack, we can start over, keep all the good memories, and eliminate the bad ones. I’ll make sure you won’t regret it. Please give us another chance."
> 
> I said “maybe”. And told her she could come to the house tonight and talk. She’ll be here at 9:00PM.
> 
> I’m done, aren’t I?




I 'm sorry, I cant take this story. Bye, bye...

~ sammy


----------



## crazyace

she looks interested in mending what she broke.. but why did she break it in the first place ?
She says , you are the only man for her and she knows you could die for her .. then what was she thinking when she had her pants down for your best friend ? 
until you hv these answers .. u bet you will find urself in this situation again


----------



## southernsurf

tom67 said:


> :iagree:
> Possible some companies may not test until they have a "reason" but yes in this economy I would not risk it so I get what you are saying.


What struck me was they didn’t have kids because they were both triple type A into their career Pharma research jobs, but yet he smokes pot regularly. In this world and economy today you would not risk your high paying job. You can't get hired anywhere in pharma without passing drug testing. After that its randomly generated, everyone can be spot tested top to bottom, don't need a reason. Its random, HR gets involved, you’re informed to follow, told you’re on the list to be tested. Happens every year. You would lose your job immediately! Also everyone in a lab job has yearly standard Occupational health physicals to take where they give urine samples. Just sayin’


----------



## Philat

southernsurf said:


> What struck me was they didn’t have kids because they were both triple type A into their career Pharma research jobs, but yet he smokes pot regularly. In this world and economy today you would not risk your high paying job. You can't get hired anywhere in pharma without passing drug testing. After that its randomly generated, everyone can be spot tested top to bottom, don't need a reason. Its random, HR gets involved, you’re informed to follow, told you’re on the list to be tested. Happens every year. You would lose your job immediately! Also everyone in a lab job has yearly standard Occupational health physicals to take where they give urine samples. Just sayin’


Wait a minute! Are you suggesting that there might be inconsistencies or holes in WW420's narrative???? I am shocked. SHOCKED!


----------



## southernsurf

txs for the BCS national championship this late aren't cheap lol


----------



## happyman64

sandc said:


> My company says they can drug test us at any time. I took one when I joined. That was it. No further tests have ever been asked for.


My company says the same thing Sandc.

What is funny is that most of the employees will pass.

But a few of the managers and all of the owners would fail.

Fail big time.

Pretty funny when you think about it.

HM


----------



## happyman64

tom67 said:


> :iagree:
> Possible some companies may not test until they have a "reason" but yes in this economy I would not risk it so I get what you are saying.


There is a chemical that can be ingested that masks all signs of cannubis from any blood or urine test......


----------



## happyman64

Walter

I hope you and your WW have a great trip.

When you return I hope you will have your answer from your wife on why she had an affair.

Good Luck

HM


----------



## BobSimmons

sammy3 said:


> I 'm sorry, I cant take this story. Bye, bye...
> 
> ~ sammy


You're done, aren't you?


----------



## BobSimmons

WalterWhite420 said:


> She also had a large manila envelope with her.


I want to live in a world where not just manila envelopes exist but pink ones, grey even multi-coloured envelopes...


----------



## sandc

*Re: Re: My Living Hell*



BobSimmons said:


> I want to live in a world where not just manila envelopes exist but pink ones, grey even multi-coloured envelopes...


You have a dream...


----------



## thummper

I wonder why Sammi "can't take this story." Does she doubt its veracity (I've *always *wanted to use that word somewhere. )


----------



## Pepper123

Creative writing, perhaps? I'd have gone with some place other than Pasadena. That place is a crime - laden dump.


----------



## illwill

You used it well. You clearly should have been using it all along.


----------



## sammy3

Double post


----------



## sammy3

illwill said:


> You used it well. You clearly should have been using it all along.


:iagree:


----------



## WalterWhite420

I haven't had time on the computer since my post last night. We had another night of good conversation and being together.

About to leave for Pasadena. Both our families are elated we're giving it another try.

We're not taking cell phones or computers on our trip. Her suggestion. So we can just concentrate on one another.

I'll post again when we get back.

Thanks all.


----------



## soccermom2three

Pepper123 said:


> Creative writing, perhaps? I'd have gone with some place other than Pasadena. That place is a crime - laden dump.


Crime laden dump? What part of Pasadena have you been too? 

The Rose Bowl Stadium is in Pasadena, so it makes sense that he's going there for a football game.


----------



## krismimo

I think she is making some strides but I think your going about it the wrong way. To R is really hard. (Speaking from experience) your a stronger man than most, she had a year affair a year not one night not a couple a days but a year. That is a tough pill to swallow and she cries gives you a letter and she gets rewarded with going on a trip with you and your family on this awesome trip.Again not knocking you for doing it but it is so so fast. No consequences at all. After you caught her right handed and in the manner in how you caught her. I wish you luck but I don't think you really given yourself enough time to really think about R or D with your wife the cold hard truth is no matter what she does your doubt will never ever go away it is something that will always be in the back of your mind and you have to live with that every day, every..single..day. You can't make a choice of this magnitude in a matter of a few weeks. It doesn't work that way. I wish you all the luck in the world.


----------



## thummper

sammy3 said:


> I cant take women acting as she, as a sex goddess, now,((yes,she was fvcking someone eles, I get it!!)) after how he treated her, I cant take he, taking from her, after how he was treated by her, fvcking another man in his bed, They both sicken me by how they hurt each other, and how now they are just using each other to get back with each other, and you all, are in the crowd cheering 'em on. Not for me...
> 
> ~sammy


I don't hold with sexual betrayal, but I think they've dealt with that and moved beyond it. If they are willing to put in the work it's going to take to successfully R, I say more power to them. I guess at my age I'm a sucker for sad songs and happy endings. Sue me.


----------



## happyman64

krismimo said:


> I think she is making some strides but I think your going about it the wrong way. To R is really hard. (Speaking from experience) your a stronger man than most, she had a year affair a year not one night not a couple a days but a year. That is a tough pill to swallow and she cries gives you a letter and she gets rewarded with going on a trip with you and your family on this awesome trip.Again not knocking you for doing it but it is so so fast. No consequences at all. After you caught her right handed and in the manner in how you caught her. I wish you luck but I don't think you really given yourself enough time to really think about R or D with your wife the cold hard truth is no matter what she does your doubt will never ever go away it is something that will always be in the back of your mind and you have to live with that every day, every..single..day. You can't make a choice of this magnitude in a matter of a few weeks. It doesn't work that way. I wish you all the luck in the world.


Kris
I think many of us agree with you.

But remember two things.
A. Walter has virtually ignored his wife for many months now. That is a consequence he dealt out to her.
B. And while he says his parents are elated he has not said he is.
I think this trip is a trial run for Walter.
He has some serious visuals and triggers he needs to deal with. This week is that test.

His counselor would probably call it a "leap of faith".

Walter has never stopped loving his wife nor how much he is in love with her still.

So while she is a remorseful wayward wife from what Walters tells, he is also still crazy about her.

Not all BS's feel this way after seeing their waywards in action. It is usually the TT and long term infidelity games that truly kill the marriage.

So let's see how Walter makes out this week and how he feels about his wife when he returns.

HM


----------



## Philat

happyman64 said:


> Kris
> I think many of us agree with you.
> 
> But remember two things.
> A. Walter has virtually ignored his wife for many months now. That is a consequence he dealt out to her.
> B. And while he says his parents are elated he has not said he is.
> I think this trip is a trial run for Walter.
> He has some serious visuals and triggers he needs to deal with. This week is that test.
> 
> His counselor would probably call it a "leap of faith".
> 
> Walter has never stopped loving his wife nor how much he is in love with her still.
> 
> So while she is a remorseful wayward wife from what Walters tells, he is also still crazy about her.
> 
> Not all BS's feel this way after seeing their waywards in action. It is usually the TT and long term infidelity games that truly kill the marriage.
> 
> So let's see how Walter makes out this week and how he feels about his wife when he returns.
> 
> HM


Hopefully he will not be incapacitated by triggers or bad thoughts. Or writer's block.


----------



## sandc

I think the first time he has sex with her in front of a mirror he's going to trigger like a mf'er.


----------



## Clay2013

sandc said:


> I think the first time he has sex with her in front of a mirror he's going to trigger like a mf'er.


I personally feel horrible for him. I can not even imagine going through what he is about to go through. He thought catching her was bad and being away from her hurt. Wait till he is alone with her and goes through all the feelings and pain. I personally suggested he not R but I understand I am not always
right and my personal opinion might not always be the best. I just feel this R process is going to be extremely painful for him. 

I do hope for the best in what ever he chooses. 

Clay


----------



## happyman64

Clay2013 said:


> I personally feel horrible for him. I can not even imagine going through what he is about to go through. He thought catching her was bad and being away from her hurt. Wait till he is alone with her and goes through all the feelings and pain. I personally suggested he not R but I understand I am not always
> right and my personal opinion might not always be the best. I just feel this R process is going to be extremely painful for him.
> 
> I do hope for the best in what ever he chooses.
> 
> Clay


You might be right.

But in a way I think Walter is starved. He is obviously madly in love with his wife still even after her affair.

He saw it with his own two eyes and still is crazy about her.

I do think she still loves him as well.

I do hope they have a meeting of the minds and he can truly forgive her.

And I hope she truly cannot live without him.

Because he is no longer the guy she married all those years ago.

But then again she is not the same person either.

HM


----------



## bandit.45

They need to get to the bottom of her slvttiness. 

She sounds like she's a sex freak...

I'm not saying this lightly or to be flippant Walter. Maybe you and her need to get to a sex therapist to see what is at the core of her waywardness.


----------



## sandc

Yep. He hasn't gotten the real "why" out of her yet.


----------



## CouldItBeSo

WalterWhite420 said:


> When my wife arrived last night, I was scared. She was drop-dead gorgeous, dressed in all my favorite colors, styles, etc. I pretty much knew I was done for then. She also had a large manila envelope with her.
> 
> We made small talk and ate dinner. I was really hungry for a change.
> 
> After we finished eating, there was a long silence. I looked at her across the table and asked if she was ready to really talk. She said yes. So I asked the following questions:
> 
> Me: If I agree to attempt R, are you prepared to answer the same tough questions over, and over, and over, and over again, as many times as I ask them? The whys, the details I must know and face, etc?
> She: Yes.
> 
> Me: Are you prepared to see me sometimes take a small step back after a large step forward in my progress?
> Her: Yes.
> 
> Me: How do I know you won’t do something like that again?
> Her: At the present, I know there’s no reason for you to believe I won’t. But promise I won’t, and I promise I will soon make you believe and know it’s true.
> 
> Me: Are you prepared for the real possibility that I may once again crumble from hurt and decide to D anyway?
> Her: No, but if that’s what you ultimately decide to do, I won’t contest the D. But I would still try to win you back after the D.
> 
> Me: Are you prepared to take a polygraph anytime I want you to? And are you prepared for a permanent breakup if you lie even once to me about anything?
> Her: Yes.
> 
> Me: Why do you want to R with me, since you saw fit to go outside our marriage? You don’t need my money, and you could have most any man you want. Why do you want to R with me, even when you know how hard it’s going to be for us to succeed?
> Her: Because you complete me like no other man ever could. No one can love me like you can. You’re the only one who would do anything for me; die for me. You’re the only man I’ve ever known that has been 100% there for his wife at all times. I need you.
> 
> Then I said “OK, I’ll go to Pasadena”. She burst into tears and cried for a long time. Then she said she had some things to show me.
> 
> She went and got her manila envelope and took some papers out.
> 
> She gave me a sheet of paper that had all her passwords written down. Phone, emails (home and work). She then presented her plan for our R. She’s “Type A” all the way.
> 
> She wants us to sell our house (too big and too much upkeep, inside and out) and move into a smaller home that requires less upkeep, so we can spend more time concentrating on one another.
> 
> She wants us both to take a 4 month leave of absence from work and work daily together on our marriage. We’re currently both in IC, and of course she (and I) want to take MC as well.
> 
> She wants us to soon return to the Auburn University campus for a few days and relive all our most special moments together. The day we met, our first date and kiss, the first time we made love, our first marijuana sex, and graduation night (the night I proposed to her).
> 
> She wants us to take a creative writing class together at a local college. While at Auburn and for many years after, we wrote long, passionate love letters to one another. She wants us to again enjoy writing to one another in that manner.
> 
> Both of us still have the many love letters we’ve written one another over the years. She wants us to reread those together, a few every day.
> 
> She wants to exchange new vows that we write ourselves, at a recreation of our wedding, in front of our entire family and friends.
> 
> I was impressed. She came and sat on the couch with me, put her arms around me, I melted, and we had a great night.


How do you remember everything you and she said?


----------



## Philat

CouldItBeSo said:


> How do you remember everything you and she said?


Literary license?


----------



## kristin2349

southernsurf said:


> txs for the BCS national championship this late aren't cheap lol


They wouldn't buy me back. Much cheaper than a divorce.

Money was never a problem mentioned here so it's not really that big a deal. It seems a blatant manipulation. Revisit the good old days, you know before she trashed their marriage, fouled the marital bed...

But he ignored her for a few months. So go team! Hope they all win.


----------



## BobSimmons

Philat said:


> Hopefully he will not be incapacitated by triggers or bad thoughts. Or writer's block.


:rofl:


----------



## kristin2349

Philat said:


> Literary license?


Hopefully notes will be taken into consideration and edits made.


----------



## kristin2349

I do hope he gets to visit Cal. Tech. (The character Walter Whites alma mater, in Pasadena)


----------



## krismimo

I get he loves his wife and he ignored her for a few months? SO what? This is rug sweeping. As long as they do not get to the core of the problem it's rug sweeping. She had a long term affair that in itself should not be taken lightly. To r takes more than beautiful words and promises. I understand that she is willing to corporate with him but there are red flags here. I mean he needs a std test, how does he know this is the only om? I don't like saying this but you are being manipulated. I think she loves you but I also think you feel guilty for the ons and ignoring her so you feel "even". The scary thing is if you didn't come home early she would still be sleeping with him in your home.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## krismimo

I have had a false reconciliation before. Actually a few of them. A false r hurts more than d day. You two have issues and a weekend watching college football is not going to do it. I forgiven to quickly looked the other way, looked at myself at my short comings and felt like we both can do this and be all the better for it. I was wrong. I was blinded by the fantasy not the reality. Walter slow down, and tread lightly.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## kristin2349

sandc said:


> Yep. He hasn't gotten the real "why" out of her yet.


Um did you not read the first post? Sounds like OM drilled it in very deep!


----------



## mahike

I am not sure where this is going to go for them. Catching them in the act in their home in their bed. Slap, Slap and Slap in his face. This is going to be a tough R.

Sounds like they are going to the BCS game tonight, they went to Auburn right?

No phones and or computers and I am sure they will do the bonding like rabbits thing but I agree with most of you that it appears she has not given him the why.

Either their is a problem in the marriage, midlife crisis for her or their maybe a sex addition problem. It needs to come out so she can work on not having a repeat.

My parting words is let her build trust but verify every step of the way.


----------



## Philat

kristin2349 said:


> Um did you not read the first post? Sounds like OM drilled it in very deep!


"Singer sewing machine." The man is a true poet.


----------



## sandc

Philat said:


> "Singer sewing machine." The man is a true poet.


Too bad he's hung like a Singer sewing machine as well.


I'm sorry, just pretend I never said that.


----------



## 12345Person

sandc said:


> Too bad he's hung like a Singer sewing machine as well.
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, just pretend I never said that.


I wouldn't be surprised to learn the OP is hung like a horse, considering how much of an alpha male he's been in this situation.


----------



## bandit.45

Good job of making Walter feel better guys.


----------



## Philat

Anonymous Person said:


> I wouldn't be surprised to learn the OP is hung like a horse, considering how much of an alpha male he's been in this situation.


He'll probably come back from Pasadena with tales of interracial group clown sex.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

bandit.45 said:


> They need to get to the bottom of her slvttiness.
> 
> She sounds like she's a sex freak...
> 
> I'm not saying this lightly or to be flippant Walter. Maybe you and her need to get to a sex therapist to see what is at the core of her waywardness.


first sentence - AGREE (and never more succinctly stated :rofl

didn't walter say the sex with her had fallen off during the marriage?? i.e. another case where interest in sex with husband decreases but interesat in sex, generally, does not.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Pepper123 said:


> Creative writing, perhaps? I'd have gone with some place other than Pasadena. That place is a crime - laden dump.


then where do they keep the Roses? wouldn't they end up being trampled most years?


----------



## bandit.45

nuclearnightmare said:


> first sentence - AGREE (and never more succinctly stated :rofl
> 
> didn't walter say the sex with her had *fallen off* during the marriage?? i.e. another case where interest in sex with husband decreases but interesat in sex, generally, does not.


Sounds like her morals fell off.


----------



## Philat

bandit.45 said:


> Sounds like her morals fell off.


Yes, a regular Madame Bovary. Or maybe Anna Karenina.


----------



## bandit.45

nuclearnightmare said:


> then where do they keep the Roses? wouldn't they end up being trampled most years?


Pasedena is a heck of a lot nicer town than most cities in L.A. County... L.A. being the worst one I can think of... followed closely by Hollywood. Hollywood is a sewer.


----------



## sandc

bandit.45 said:


> Pasedena is a heck of a lot nicer town than most cities in L.A. County... L.A. being the worst one I can think of... followed closely by Hollywood. Hollywood is a sewer.


Makes Fresno and Stockton look like garden spots.


----------



## bandit.45

sandc said:


> Makes Fresno and Stockton look like garden spots.


Ah Fresno... don'tcha just love that layer of grey smoggy morning muck hovering above the farms in the morning?


----------



## sandc

bandit.45 said:


> Ah Fresno... don'tcha just love that layer of grey smoggy morning muck hovering above the farms in the morning?


From Bakersfield to Redding. Yep love it. Fresno also has the distinction of being the birthplace of meth. If I'm not mistaken.

Glad I don't live there.


----------



## arbitrator

kristin2349 said:


> Um did you not read the first post? *Sounds like OM drilled it in very deep!*


*And as my oilfield brethren would so nobly say, "he was just busy layin' pipe!"*


----------



## kristin2349

sandc said:


> Too bad he's hung like a Singer sewing machine as well.
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, just pretend I never said that.



I'm having visions of women working those old Singers that you had to pump with your knee on one side and foot pedal...like my great grandma (an old Greek lady in black). Hurts my head a bit.


----------



## 12345Person

Philat said:


> He'll probably come back from Pasadena with tales of interracial group clown sex.


No doubt, his wife feels so much remorse, and knows she cannot get a better alpha male than the OP. I wouldn't be surprised if the OP comes back with tales of his wife setting up multiple threesomes with her best friend and sister.


----------



## krismimo

If you think he is not telling the truth keep it to yourself.


----------



## illwill

Anonymous Person said:


> I wouldn't be surprised to learn the OP is hung like a horse, considering how much of an alpha male he's been in this situation.


Alphas do not reconcile.


----------



## kristin2349

CouldItBeSo said:


> How do you remember everything you and she said?


There was a summary sheet in the Manila folder


----------



## barbados

WalterWhite420 said:


> She's the total package. I'm not bragging, but imagine Mila Kunis with the brain of Marie Curie and the sex drive of Marilyn Monroe and the sense of humor of Carol Burnette. I know that's an exaggeration, but it's truth to me.
> 
> *But she cheated. *


So then she has the moral value system of who ??

And she cheated in the MARITAL BED NO LESS !!

And let's not forget that she NEVER TOLD YOU (LIED) that she was being pursued by this man for what you say was a long time.

It takes a particularly entitled personality to carry on with a person in that manner.

I also don't buy her "picture perfect" plan for R. Its almost to good to believe, i.e., as if she went out and found a forum just like this one (or quite possibly this one), and simply agrees to do everything it says she should do.

Most waywards TT the BS's to death, have to raked over hot coals to finally show true remorse, etc. Her reactions are just TOO clean for me.


----------



## bandit.45

Never underestimate the power of the vagina.


----------



## sandc




----------



## kristin2349

sandc said:


>


:rofl::rofl::rofl: ORIGASMI?

Female with a bawdy sense of humor laughing and ducking. That would make a unique "flower" arrangement. Much better than watching real flowers die.


----------



## kristin2349

bandit.45 said:


> Never underestimate the power of the vagina.


Mine is out at the gym!


----------



## happyman64

kristin2349 said:


> Mine is out at the gym!


You have a very talented and committed vagaga!


----------



## sandc

kristin2349 said:


> :rofl::rofl::rofl: ORIGASMI?
> 
> Female with a bawdy sense of humor laughing and ducking. That would make a unique "flower" arrangement. Much better than watching real flowers die.


 I was just trying to bolster Bandit's argument. I think in pictures and cartoons most of the time. 

At least you have a sense of humor. :smthumbup:


----------



## raven3321

When is Walter supposed to be back from Pasadena?


----------



## bandit.45

raven3321 said:


> When is Walter supposed to be back from Pasadena?


Yeah I heard Pasedena doesn't have internet service, so I guess we will have to wait....


----------



## Hicks

I always say put your money where your mouth is.


----------



## kristin2349

raven3321 said:


> When is Walter supposed to be back from Pasadena?



Well there is a one week sensory deprivation "rediscovery" so no cells or Internet.

Then the proposed 4 month leave of absence proposal his wayward presented in her reconciliation folder. So we may not hear from him for a while. They may have just ridden off into the sunset, only time will tell. 

Something tells me he is just fine. He has more support than most, a good IC, supportive family, a good job, friends, and his own grow lab of recreational bud in his basement. Life is good it would seem.


----------



## bandit.45

kristin2349 said:


> Something tells me he is just fine. He has more support than most, a good IC, supportive family, a good job, friends, and his own grow lab of recreational bud in his basement. Life is good it would seem.


Except for the mind movie of his wife getting hammered like a nail by the OM in their bed.


----------



## kristin2349

bandit.45 said:


> Except for the mind movie of his wife getting hammered like a nail by the OM in their bed.



Oh Bandit darling, it was clearly described as a Singer sewing machine! 

I guess OM has a needle d!ck? We will have to wait for the details. I mean we know his preferred hair color (black with pink highlights) dude has an edge. But there are still some gaps that have yet to be filled


----------



## WalterWhite420

We got back from Pasadena today; a day early, due to my wife’s father being hospitalized with minor chest pains. He’s fine now.

I’ve had a chance to read the posts made since my last post a few days ago. And I would like to respectfully ask Philat and anyone else who does not believe my story to please refrain from posting anymore in this thread. If you don’t believe me, I understand. I don’t believe everything I read either. But please, just leave. That seems easy. Thank you.

Auburn lost. But they played great, and I’m really proud of them. It was great to be at the game and see them play well.

We had a great trip. With no cell phones or computers to distract us, we had a great few days of doing nothing but talking and having sex. I know I still love her so much. I couldn’t NOT love her if I tried, and believe me I’ve tried.

Just before we left on the trip to Pasadena, my wife found a MC that has a great track record for saving marriages. She’s got 30+ years of experience, is semi-retired, and takes only the cases she wants. She also charges a PREMIUM price. My wife checked her references, and they all pretty much said the same thing: she has unorthodox methods, but she’s the MC that MCs go to when they have trouble in their marriage.

My wife talked to her briefly on the phone to set up a session for us next week. The MC asked about the background of our case. When she found out that we are currently in an early (blissful) stage of R attempt, she said we should just stay with that theme as much as possible on our trip. Keep it as blissful as possible. Concentrate on the things we loved and love about one another. I guess to get stronger for the difficult days ahead in MC.

Now, we start the heavy lifting. The whys, hows, wheres. That’s where I bailed on our last attempt at R. And I may bail again this time. I don’t know yet.

The MC also gave us some “homework” to do. She wanted us to each find at least 5 things that we adore about one another or love doing with one another (aside from foreplay or the sex act itself). She wanted us to write these things down, and compare notes at the end of the week. We each had more than 5 things on our list.

I would post our lists here, but the cynics would have a great time making fun.

Although the MC asked us to wait till our sessions with her before we discussed the A, I still had bad times on the trip. Especially after my wife went to sleep every night. Thinking about what happened. It was hard.

Knowing how hard and painful the R attempt was the last time we tried, I give us about a 30% chance of success.

Wish us (me) luck.

Thanks.


----------



## thummper

Walter I'm so glad you and your love are having initial success in your attempts to R. The love you felt (still feel) for her glowed through all of your previous texts no matter how angry you said you were. I don't know if I believe in "true love" and "soulmates", but if those things really exist, I think you two have them in spades. Keep up the good work! :smthumbup:


----------



## WalterWhite420

southernsurf said:


> Do you work in big Pharma , little Pharma, biotech?
> So you are ~ 45 and a regular pot smoker, how is that possible, everyone drug tests.


I was drug-tested when I was hired. Never since. I don't work with addictive drugs at work, so they've never drug-tested me since my hiring. But even if they did, I have 3 degrees in chemistry. I could beat a simple 7-panel drug test easy.

Google "how to beat a drug test". There are a bunch of different ways. Synthetic urine. Clean Pee (real, dehydrated urine). Using someone else's urine (done all the time). Just get advice from Department of Transportation (DOT) employees - i.e. truck divers. They get tested randomly all the time, and lots of them keep synthetic urine or Clean Pee in their trucks at all times.


----------



## WalterWhite420

nuclearnightmare said:


> :iagree:
> I also think you should plan a surprise for her right after you get back from Pasadena. A polygraph scheduled for her. Most important question being whether this is her only affair during your M. Will be interesting to see if her confidence skips a beat


We're doing a polygraph next week. And randomly after that. She agreed wholeheartedly to do them any time I ask.


----------



## WalterWhite420

Plan 9 from OS said:


> True, pot is detectable in urine up to 30 days if I'm not mistaken. Hair samples will give you back to a few months if I'm not mistaken. I think the point is that it calls a lot into question if the protocol is to randomly drug test employees working in pharma/biotech when the thread owner claims to be a regular smoker. That plus other things written in this thread seem - interesting...


I know a guy who once tested positive 67 days after his last smoke. A DOT employee.


----------



## WalterWhite420

southernsurf said:


> he smokes pot regularly. In this world and economy today you would not risk your high paying job. You can't get hired anywhere in pharma without passing drug testing. After that its randomly generated, everyone can be spot tested top to bottom, don't need a reason. Its random, HR gets involved, you’re informed to follow, told you’re on the list to be tested. Happens every year. You would lose your job immediately! Also everyone in a lab job has yearly standard Occupational health physicals to take where they give urine samples. Just sayin’


I have not been tested since my hiring. Neither has my wife. We work with drugs at work of no more strength than aspirin. The only time pharm companies test seriously is when employees work with highly addictive drugs like oxycontin.

Hell my BOSS smokes pot a couple times per month. I'll bet yours does too.


----------



## raven3321

WalterWhite420 said:


> We got back from Pasadena today; a day early, due to my wife’s father being hospitalized with minor chest pains. He’s fine now.
> 
> I’ve had a chance to read the posts made since my last post a few days ago. And I would like to respectfully ask Philat and anyone else who does not believe my story to please refrain from posting anymore in this thread. If you don’t believe me, I understand. I don’t believe everything I read either. But please, just leave. That seems easy. Thank you.
> 
> Auburn lost. But they played great, and I’m really proud of them. It was great to be at the game and see them play well.
> 
> We had a great trip. With no cell phones or computers to distract us, we had a great few days of doing nothing but talking and having sex. I know I still love her so much. I couldn’t NOT love her if I tried, and believe me I’ve tried.
> 
> Just before we left on the trip to Pasadena, my wife found a MC that has a great track record for saving marriages. She’s got 30+ years of experience, is semi-retired, and takes only the cases she wants. She also charges a PREMIUM price. My wife checked her references, and they all pretty much said the same thing: she has unorthodox methods, but she’s the MC that MCs go to when they have trouble in their marriage.
> 
> My wife talked to her briefly on the phone to set up a session for us next week. The MC asked about the background of our case. When she found out that we are currently in an early (blissful) stage of R attempt, she said we should just stay with that theme as much as possible on our trip. Keep it as blissful as possible. Concentrate on the things we loved and love about one another. I guess to get stronger for the difficult days ahead in MC.
> 
> Now, we start the heavy lifting. The whys, hows, wheres. That’s where I bailed on our last attempt at R. And I may bail again this time. I don’t know yet.
> 
> The MC also gave us some “homework” to do. She wanted us to each find at least 5 things that we adore about one another or love doing with one another (aside from foreplay or the sex act itself). She wanted us to write these things down, and compare notes at the end of the week. We each had more than 5 things on our list.
> 
> I would post our lists here, but the cynics would have a great time making fun.
> 
> Although the MC asked us to wait till our sessions with her before we discussed the A, I still had bad times on the trip. Especially after my wife went to sleep every night. Thinking about what happened. It was hard.
> 
> Knowing how hard and painful the R attempt was the last time we tried, I give us about a 30% chance of success.
> 
> Wish us (me) luck.
> 
> Thanks.


You'll make it dude. One of the main reasons is before now you didn't have us rooting for you. From what you've described of her, she's worth the pain it's going to take to reconcile and heal. But like Winston Churchill once said, "When you find yourself going through hell, keep going". Keep going Walter.


----------



## WalterWhite420

raven3321 said:


> You'll make it dude. One of the main reasons is before now you didn't have us rooting for you. From what you've described of her, she's worth the pain it's going to take to reconcile and heal. But like Winston Churchill once said, "When you find yourself going through hell, keep going". Keep going Walter.


Thanks. If we succeed, it will take a long while and a LOT of work. And I'm not sure that I'm up to it. But like I said earlier in this thread, in my admittedly biased opinion, she's the kind of woman that comes along only once in every million lifetimes or so. I know I've got to give her another chance. We'll see what (if anything) comes of it.


----------



## Philat

WalterWhite420 said:


> We got back from Pasadena today; a day early, due to my wife’s father being hospitalized with minor chest pains. He’s fine now.
> 
> I’ve had a chance to read the posts made since my last post a few days ago. * And I would like to respectfully ask Philat and anyone else who does not believe my story to please refrain from posting anymore in this thread. * If you don’t believe me, I understand. I don’t believe everything I read either. But please, just leave. That seems easy. Thank you.
> 
> Auburn lost. But they played great, and I’m really proud of them. It was great to be at the game and see them play well.
> 
> We had a great trip. With no cell phones or computers to distract us, we had a great few days of doing nothing but talking and having sex. I know I still love her so much. I couldn’t NOT love her if I tried, and believe me I’ve tried.
> 
> Just before we left on the trip to Pasadena, my wife found a MC that has a great track record for saving marriages. She’s got 30+ years of experience, is semi-retired, and takes only the cases she wants. She also charges a PREMIUM price. My wife checked her references, and they all pretty much said the same thing: she has unorthodox methods, but she’s the MC that MCs go to when they have trouble in their marriage.
> 
> My wife talked to her briefly on the phone to set up a session for us next week. The MC asked about the background of our case. When she found out that we are currently in an early (blissful) stage of R attempt, she said we should just stay with that theme as much as possible on our trip. Keep it as blissful as possible. Concentrate on the things we loved and love about one another. I guess to get stronger for the difficult days ahead in MC.
> 
> Now, we start the heavy lifting. The whys, hows, wheres. That’s where I bailed on our last attempt at R. And I may bail again this time. I don’t know yet.
> 
> The MC also gave us some “homework” to do. She wanted us to each find at least 5 things that we adore about one another or love doing with one another (aside from foreplay or the sex act itself). She wanted us to write these things down, and compare notes at the end of the week. We each had more than 5 things on our list.
> 
> I would post our lists here, but the cynics would have a great time making fun.
> 
> Although the MC asked us to wait till our sessions with her before we discussed the A, I still had bad times on the trip. Especially after my wife went to sleep every night. Thinking about what happened. It was hard.
> 
> Knowing how hard and painful the R attempt was the last time we tried, I give us about a 30% chance of success.
> 
> Wish us (me) luck.
> 
> Thanks.


Hey, Walt, sure thing, far be it from me...

Enjoy the ride, everyone.


----------



## happyman64

Walter

I would be mad at you if you did not try to R.

As hurtful as her Affair was/is you obviously love your wife.

I just hope that your W loves you as much as you love her.

No matter what make her find out why she had the Affair.

You deserve no less.

Good Luck and let us know how you make out.

HM


----------



## tom67

happyman64 said:


> Walter
> 
> I would be mad at you if you did not try to R.
> 
> As hurtful as her Affair was/is you obviously love your wife.
> 
> I just hope that your W loves you as much as you love her.
> 
> No matter what make her find out why she had the Affair.
> 
> You deserve no less.
> 
> Good Luck and let us know how you make out.
> 
> HM


:iagree::iagree:


----------



## WalterWhite420

happyman64 said:


> Walter
> 
> I would be mad at you if you did not try to R.
> 
> As hurtful as her Affair was/is you obviously love your wife.
> 
> I just hope that your W loves you as much as you love her.
> 
> No matter what make her find out why she had the Affair.
> 
> You deserve no less.
> 
> Good Luck and let us know how you make out.
> 
> HM


Thank you sir. Your advice and support has been solid throughout.


----------



## illwill

While i would not be mad at you for not reconciling (that was odd) , i wish you the best.

If you a sure this is the right thing to do, i am rooting for you.

Keep posting.


----------



## Machiavelli

arbitrator said:


> *Bull: In Texas, you could pretty much do the guy in if you walked in on him in the act of plowing your wife within the sanctity of your own personal domicile! And conversely, a wife could do the very same thing if her old man was caught by her in a similar circumstances!*


Unfortunately, the Paramour Law was repealed in 1975.


----------



## just got it 55

happyman64 said:


> Walter
> 
> I would be mad at you if you did not try to R.
> 
> As hurtful as her Affair was/is you obviously love your wife.
> 
> I just hope that your W loves you as much as you love her.
> 
> No matter what make her find out why she had the Affair.
> 
> You deserve no less.
> 
> Good Luck and let us know how you make out.
> 
> HM


:iagree::iagree::iagree: as well

*WHY*

Is always the most important question

Good luck Walt

55


----------



## sandc

Always act as if you are just about to D her. Take a cue from the Dread Pirate Roberts, " goodnight Wesley good job I'll most likely kill you tomorrow."


----------



## WalterWhite420

sandc said:


> Always act as if you are just about to D her. Take a cue from the Dread Pirate Roberts, " goodnight Wesley good job I'll most likely kill you tomorrow."


Yes, I remember the Dread Pirate Roberts.

BTW, did you get my reply to your PM? I sent a response twice, but it didn't get saved in my sent box so I'm not sure it really got sent.


----------



## sandc

*Re: Re: My Living Hell*



WalterWhite420 said:


> Yes, I remember the Dread Pirate Roberts.
> 
> BTW, did you get my reply to your PM? I sent a response twice, but it didn't get saved in my sent box so I'm not sure it really got sent.


I did, thank you.


----------



## WalterWhite420

Tonight my wife is staying with her parents, because her dad was just released from the hospital (he had chest pains). Since her mom sleeps so hard at night, my wife is staying with them to be there in case her dad relapses.

And this evening has been very hard on me. When we're together, I'm fine. But when she's away, I think about the A.
MC (2nd attempt) starts Monday. The MC wants to see each of us alone for an hour in the morning, and then together for an hour in the afternoon.


----------



## john1068

I hate to bring this up again, as has been suggested multiple times here...but can you please explain your Tantric Sex post from earlier today as it relates to your posts here in this thread?



> This has probably been discussed in this section before, but I was wondering how many of you have tried Tantric sex.
> 
> My wife and I *have always had an incredible sex life*. We *are* both quite over-sexed. We decided a few years ago to try Tantric sex. We tried and tried, based upon reading all we could, but couldn't perfect it. We decided to see a sex councilor to see if we could progress further. She was fantastic, *and fixed all our problems *with attaining Tantric sex. I can tell you that it's ALL IT'S CRACKED UP TO BE. And more.
> 
> Anybody else tried it?


I'm confused how this woman and the sex you describe can be the same woman who you just caught having sex with another man in your own bed. And how could you possibly be writing about this part of your life when you're in the middle of divorcing her, and stating how tantric sex "fixed all your problems."

there is a lot of caring people who have a strong desire to help others on this forum...with each post they recall their own horsh!t experiences, they bare their soles to all of us to help an OP. The last thing any of the "counselors" herein want to deal with is wasted energy on a troll.:scratchhead:


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## 2asdf2

He meant "fixed all our problems with *attaining* Tantric sex."

I think...


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## WalterWhite420

john1068 said:


> I hate to bring this up again, as has been suggested multiple times here...but can you please explain your Tantric Sex post from earlier today as it relates to your posts here in this thread?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm confused how this woman and the sex you describe can be the same woman who you just caught having sex with another man in your own bed. And how could you possibly be writing about this part of your life when you're in the middle of divorcing her, and stating how tantric sex "fixed all your problems."
> 
> there is a lot of caring people who have a strong desire to help others on this forum...with each post they recall their own horsh!t experiences, they bare their soles to all of us to help an OP. The last thing any of the "counselors" herein want to deal with is wasted energy on a troll.:scratchhead:


About 10 years ago we tried Tantric. We couldn't attain the heights advertised, so we sought a Tantric councilor, just hoping... She did fix our "then" problems with Tantric. And we've enjoyed it many times since.

What's so hard to believe about this?


----------



## john1068

2asdf2 said:


> He meant "fixed all our problems with *attaining* Tantric sex."


Perhaps...I just am wondering waxing nostalgic about this when he's in the middle of divorce due to her infidelity, and speaking in the present-perfect tense rather than in the the past-perfect sense. It appears as though the awesome sex is still going on in the present.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## WalterWhite420

john1068 said:


> Perhaps...I just am wondering waxing nostalgic about this when he's in the middle of divorce due to her infidelity, and speaking in the present-perfect tense rather than in the the past-perfect sense. It appears as though the awesome sex is still going on in the present.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


Yes, as of about a week ago, it is.


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## john1068

WalterWhite420 said:


> About 10 years ago we tried Tantric. We couldn't attain the heights advertised, so we sought a Tantric councilor, just hoping... She did fix our "then" problems with Tantric. And we've enjoyed it many times since.
> 
> What's so hard to believe about this?


Nothing hard to believe about digging tantric sex...I just was questioning the tantric post in the Talk about Sex forum in light of what you're writing on this thread in CWI...and speaking about it your sex with your W in the present tense rather than in the past tense, as thought it's going on in the present...

You've now explained it. We all know nobody appreciates a troll, not even a grammar troll, as I may have just been in being critical of your post...I apologize if I was overly critical on your grammar...


----------



## WalterWhite420

john1068 said:


> Nothing hard to believe about digging tantric sex...I just was questioning the tantric post in the Talk about Sex forum in light of what you're writing on this thread in CWI...and speaking about it your sex with your W in the present tense rather than in the past tense, as thought it's going on in the present...
> 
> You've now explained it. We all know nobody appreciates a troll, not even a grammar troll, as I may have just been in being critical of your post...I apologize if I was overly critical on your grammar...


Apology accepted. Thank you.


----------



## illwill

Take it day by day, Walt.


----------



## BetrayedDad

WalterWhite420 said:


> But like I said earlier in this thread, she's the kind of woman that comes along only once in every million lifetimes or so.


Sorry to be so blunt (and pardon the pun) but cheaters are a dime a dozen...


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## WalterWhite420

BetrayedDad said:


> Sorry to be so blunt (and pardon the pun) but cheaters are a dime a dozen...


Thanks. I want honest inputs.


----------



## CouldItBeSo

From what body part(s) did you carry the OM out on D-day or did you carry him like a man would carry a woman (arms under legs and armpits)? I suppose he still had a _raging bull_ erection going on or did that subside from the beating?


----------



## WalterWhite420

CouldItBeSo said:


> From what body part(s) did you carry the OM out on D-day or did you carry him like a man would carry a woman (arms under legs and armpits)? I suppose he still had a _raging bull_ erection going on or did that subside from the beating?


I drug him out by his arms.

I'm not sure, but I imagine he lost that erection somewhere between the broken nose and broken jaw.


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## warlock07

Did you ever read the correspondence she had with her lover? (emails, sms etc)

How often did they meet one another for sex during the affair ?

These questions will come up sooner or later...(if they haven't already)


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## WalterWhite420

warlock07 said:


> Did you ever read the correspondence she had with her lover? (emails, sms etc)
> 
> How often did they meet one another for sex during the affair ?
> 
> These questions will come up sooner or later...(if they haven't already)


These questions came up during our first attempt at R and MC, months ago. We addressed them, and I bailed. It hurt too much.

Our new MC wants us to wait until she meets with us before we get deep into those things again. The MC wants to lead us through her own preferred process based upon the details of our specific case. She comes so highly recommended, and she's charging a premium price, so I guess we're going to do whatever she says.


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## WalterWhite420

OK people, please be respectfully gentle with my wife, who is about to make her first post in this thread.


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## Carrie420

Hello everyone. I’m Walter’s (Jack’s) wife, Carrie.

I’ve just finished reading this entire thread. My therapist and Jack’s therapist recommended this web site. So here I am. If it becomes a circus because of my presence, I’ll start a separate thread, or just leave. I’m not trying to hijack Jack’s thread. 

Reading through all the posts here, I’ve seen how quickly he progressed with help of people like HappyMan. Thank you.

What I did to Jack was worse than horrible. There was no good reason, and there’s no excuse. It was all my fault. Jack has gone through hell. And it’s been hell for me to watch him hurt, struggle, question, wonder in bewilderment, etc. I’ve tortured myself inside because of it. Because I put him there. And I love him with all my heart and soul.

I put him there, and I’m the one who has to bring him out. Because he deserves it, and because I need him and love him so. I’ve got to be there for him the way he was for me in college. He didn’t tell you people that he saved my life in college, did he? But he did. He truly risked his life to save mine, and in the process won my heart forever. We were already deeply in love, but his willingness to give his life for mine made me adore him like I can’t explain. 

Then why did I hurt him so? I’ll work through those questions in due time with our marriage councilor, who has requested (demanded) that we wait for her guidance before we try and tackle those kinds of tough questions.

With the gentle pushing of his therapist and some of you good people here, Jack finally agreed to the Pasadena trip. Thank you so much. We had a chance to reconnect, unify, and strengthen one another for the hard battles ahead.

I have dedicated the rest of my life to healing Jack. I hurt my soul mate and the best husband in the world in the most destructive way possible. I’m facing that head-on. I’m not running from it or making excuses. I’m trying to show Jack that all I really want for the rest of my life is to be his wife and lover. That’s all that’s important to me now.

I’ll never forget something Jack said a few days after “DDAY”. He said “You’ve done worse than kill me. I would rather suffer a slow, horrible death from cancer than face what you did. We were so great together. Why?”. I didn’t have an answer. I didn’t want to live and contemplated suicide. But ironically, it was my love for him that kept me from suicide. I owe him so much.

I’m doing everything my therapist said to do to help Jack. But I still know that while I’m sleeping at night, Jack is lying awake beside me with things going through his mind that torture him. If I could take his pain on me and bear it for him, I would.

I was warned that I might be bashed relentlessly if I came on this web site. But please, respect this as Jack’s thread. If you want to call me names and hurl insults, just PM me.

One thing I’ve noticed is that some of you think I was involved in an active affair for a year. It wasn’t like that at all. I’m not trying to minimize what I did, but it was a very short affair. 
And I’ll be glad to state so under a polygraph. We’re actually doing a polygraph this coming week. I insisted.

If you’re angered by my presence or anything I’ve said here, please don’t take it out on Jack. He’s suffered enough because of me.

We’re going to make it. I won’t stand for any other outcome.


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## sandc

There are a lot of betrayed spouses in this thread. "Why" is going to be their number one question. Kudos for coming into the thread. Yes, you will have a lot of rocks thrown at you. But if you weather it out and answer the questions you may find that ultimately we want to help.


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## CouldItBeSo

What did WW mean by that the OM "pursued" you for years? If you knew he was pursuing you, you should have told your husband and that's the point where the affair started in my opinion, when you decided to not tell your husband.


----------



## WyshIknew

CouldItBeSo said:


> What did WW mean by that the OM "pursued" you for years? If you knew he was pursuing you, you should have told your husband and that's the point where the affair started in my opinion, when you decided to not tell your husband.


:iagree:


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## just got it 55

OK Carrie you have so much work ahead of you. Do you have it in you ?

You have showed some courage coming here. And as long as you are truthful and face the challenges ahead of you with honorable intentions you will have my support and the support of others.

HM64 is a very honorable man. And you were smart to point out his positive impact on your husband.

So please don’t waste his time being evasive in answering questions you need to answer.

Starting with

WHY

Good luck I’m hoping you and Walt / Jack get through this

55


----------



## happyman64

Hi Carrie

Welcome. 

Since you mentioned me by name I will say hello to you.

All I will say for now is this.

We rarely see a BS like Walter (jack) that viewed his WW infidelity closeup and still loves his spouse so deeply.

It is very obvious from his posts that he loves you as a wife but also as a best friend, lover and confidante.

And that makes your affair 2x or 3x as painful. 

I am sure you realize that now......



> I put him there, and I’m the one who has to bring him out. Because he deserves it, and because I need him and love him so.


Now a little advice for you. Walter is strong. Really strong. But Affairs make a mess for both the BS and the WS. 

I always say it takes two to make a marriage. But it only takes one to destroy a marriage. But it takes a lot of hard work from both of you to Reconcile a marriage.

But only Walter can bring himself out. He obviously wants to or he would not have joined TAM or gone on your trip with you.

The key to your success is finding out the "WHY" to your Affair.

Once you understand that; you can put the proper boundaries in place and build up the trust with Walter.

It takes years.

In the end I hope you learn to love Walter as deeply as he loves you. Because if you do your love will be the strongest and most fulfilling.

And that is what Walter and you truly deserve.

Good Luck and keep posting. I am glad you came to TAM.

HM


----------



## sandc

Carrie,
A little light reading for you... It's usually posted by another TAM'er. 



The Wayward Spouse Instructions

Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse - A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners.

The Sea of Stress is Difficult to Understand.

YOU BETRAYED YOUR PARTNER. NOW COMES THE FALLOUT.

They discovered your adultery. You ended the affair and promised you’ll never cheat again. But the stress from their emotional devastation lingers. And you don’t see much change – at least, not as much positive change as you expected. Many times, any visible changes are for the worse. You observe them bouncing back and forth like a ping-pong ball, moment to moment, from one emotion to the next. They’re unpredictable. There’s no discernable pattern. Their nerves are frayed. They can’t sleep. They can’t eat. Their thoughts are obsessive. Intrusive visions and flashbacks assault them without warning. They cry at the drop of a hat. They feel empty, used up, exhausted. The stress consumes their energy and their life until they feel like there’s nothing left. It’s terrible.

It’s an ordeal for you to witness their tortured, depressed and angry states, and what’s worse; you don’t know what to do. You’re not alone. Unfaithful spouses never dream they’ll get busted, so when confronted with their adultery they’re always caught by surprise; first by their partners’ knowledge, then by their intense agony. Indeed, unfaithful partners never think about what they’ll face “after” until after. The fact is: Though they inflict it, adulterers are unprepared for the onslaught of their spouses’ overwhelming emotional distress. Is this real? Is this permanent?

As you watch them sink lower and lower, wallowing in an emotional abyss, you wonder where the bottom is, when they will hit it, and if they will ever ascend from it and return to “normal.” You ask yourself, “Is this real?” Then you ask, “Will this ever end?”

The simple answers are: Yes, it is real. And, yes, it will end. But recovery takes a long time, often years, and much depends on you. Can you be remorseful, apologetic, loving, patient, empathetic and soothing over an extended period of time? Can you commit to openness and honesty at all times – and forevermore being faithful to your spouse?

Be honest with yourself: If you can’t or don’t want to get over your affair, if you don’t feel shame and remorse, and if you can’t generously provide appropriate support to your spouse, then now is the time to consider ending your marriage and spare your marital partner further pain. (If this is the case, you need not read any further.)

But if you have put the affair permanently behind you, if you feel and can freely express your remorse and shame for your unfaithfulness, and if you can commit to supporting your spouse through their excruciating anguish, then you have an excellent chance of rebuilding from this disaster you’ve wrought to a happy, satisfying, caring and loving marriage. The following is intended to help you help your partner, and in turn yourself, through this horrible time and jumpstart your journey to recovery.

So, take a couple of deep breaths… and let’s start with three foundational facts:

What you’re seeing in your spouse is a normal reaction to a life-changing event.

Your spouse needs to grieve for as long as it takes in order to recover and heal.

You can be a positive influence on their recovery.

Now, go back and reread them several times. Let them really sink in. When you can repeat them without looking, continue.

Your first mission is to learn.

Learning about your partner’s myriad reactions to your betrayal allows you to recognize, understand and properly respond to them as they occur. Doing so will help you get through
this horrible initial stage, which can last a long time.
Below you’ll find a little of what your spouse is probably experiencing. They may shift from one reaction to another, or they could experience multiple reactions concurrently. And don’t be surprised if they return to previous states many times. Where applicable, we’ve added some tips to help you to assist your partner through this. In some cases, however, there may be little for you to do except to simply “be there.”

Most importantly, remember at all times: Your infidelity has traumatized your spouse. Act accordingly.

SECTION 1 - THE WILD PATCHWORK OF EMOTIONS

DISBELIEF: They expect to wake up any minute from this nightmare. It can’t be true. They don’t believe it. This is natural. They trusted you and don’t want to believe you did what you did. It is common for this to occur in the very first moments of discovery. (Note: If some time elapsed between the discovery of your affair and the confrontation, you may have missed this when it happened, but it is also possible for your spouse to return to disbelief.)

SHOCK: They are numb and often seem dazed. Their emotions are frozen. Their senses are dulled. They go through the motions mechanically, robotically, but can’t seem to apply sufficient concentration to their day-to-day lives.

REALITY: “Oh my God. It really happened.” They feel they’re getting worse. Actually, reality has just set in. It’s as if a ton of bricks just fell on them and they’re buried beneath them. They don’t know where to turn, or can’t. Don’t discount the likelihood that they feel shamed by your infidelity. So, they may be reluctant to seek support from friends and family. Be available to them for emotional support and encourage them to talk freely with anyone they choose. Suggest therapy as a means to help them through their trauma, but never accuse them of “being irrational” or “acting crazy.” Be supportive and encouraging. Commend them for seeking help.

CONFUSION: They’re disoriented. They can’t think straight. They become impatient, disorganized and forgetful. More frequently than usual they go to a room to retrieve something, but once they get there they can’t remember what it was. This is very upsetting to them. Bear with them. Be gentle and be helpful. Help them find their misplaced purse or locate their lost keys. Know that they will eventually come out of the fog. Also be aware that their confusion, as with other states listed here, may be set off or magnified by certain “triggers.” (Note: Read more about “triggers” below.)

PHYSICAL SYMPTOMS: They may sleep or eat too little – or too much. They may suffer physical aches and pains, numbness or weakness. They may feel unusually tense and develop headaches, abnormal tics, twitching or shaking. They may feel sick to their stomach and vomit, or their digestive system may react with constipation or diarrhea. Weight loss is common. Usually the symptoms fade gradually. If these symptoms persist, make sure they check with a doctor to rule out other causes. Encourage them to eat well and to exercise – but don’t nag. You might instead take control of their diet by preparing healthy, well balanced meals. If you don’t cook, take them to restaurants where you know they serve nourishing food and, if necessary, order for them. If they’re not exercising, initiate taking long walks together. It’s a good way to ease them into a healthy exercise regimen, which is always a good stress reliever, and will provide opportunity for you to begin constructively re-establishing your “couplehood.”

CRYING: Deep emotions suddenly well up, seeking release as crying, uncontrollable sobbing and even screaming out loud. Allow them their time for tears. They can help. So can you. When they cry, give them your shoulder. Hug them. Help them through it by gently encouraging them, to “get it all out.” Be certain to verbalize your remorse for causing their pain. They need to hear this from you. (Note: Right now, genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit. That is why you’ll see many more references below. Read “Apologize” in Section 2.)

SELF-CONTROL: They control their emotions to fulfill their responsibilities, or to simply rest from the pain. Self-control can shape and give rhythm to their grieving, but be on the lookout for constant and rigid self-control. It can block healing. They need to reduce their emotional pressure to regain equilibrium. Allow them to vent when it happens. Be aware: Too much self-control means they are storing up much anger and will release it powerfully, like floodwaters breaking through a dam. So don’t be alarmed if they suddenly lash out at you, your affair partner, or even themselves. Understand that the release of anger is necessary to heal. Though it may not feel this way to you when it happens, it’s beneficial.

NEED TO KNOW: They will ask lots of questions. Their curiosity may be insatiable or it may be limited. Different people have different needs and tolerances for information, but they need information to process their trauma, move through it, and move past it.

Let them set the agenda. Whenever they ask a question, whatever they ask, answer honestly and sufficiently. Refusing to answer gives the appearance that you’re still keeping them in the dark, that you still have something to hide. Do not hold anything back. If they discover later that you omitted or hid details, or if the facts they discover don’t match the story you tell, they’ll feel betrayed once again. Follow the delivery of each new piece of hurtful information with an apology, and soothe them with another promise that you’ll never again be unfaithful.

WHY: They ask, “Why did you do this?” They may or may not expect an answer, but they ask repeatedly. If they do want an answer, provide it – and answer honestly. Even if the question is rhetorical, be aware that the question itself, rhetorical or not, is a cry of pain. And each time they feel pain, it should be answered with another apology. (I can’t stress enough how important this is.) Be aware: Even if they are not verbalizing this to you, they are still silently asking the question “Why?” over and over and over again.

INJUSTICE: They feel it’s all so unfair. You invited danger, you took the risk, but they suffered injury. They want justice and begin to think like a vigilante. They may harbour a secret desire to do harm to you or your affair partner. They may want to get even by having a “revenge affair.”
Understand that the aftermath of your unfaithfulness is an agony you have thrust upon them. Meanwhile, despite your betrayal and deceit, and the shame you feel, you and your affair partner may retain fond or even loving memories of your affair. One of my patients described her feelings of injustice this way: “I feel like a rape victim watching helplessly as the jury returns a ‘not guilty’ verdict. Then, the assailant looks at me, points his finger at me and laughs all the way out of the courtroom. How can this possibly happen?”

A sad truth of infidelity is: It is unfair. Of course, there is no “justice” that can come from this. Betrayed spouses generally settle into this realization on their own, but they need to know that you understand how this plagues them. (Note: Read “Share your feelings of guilt and shame” in Section 2. It explains the best way to help them through their sense of injustice.)

INADEQUACY: Their self esteem is shattered. They feel belittled, insignificant, and often even unlovable. Just as you would crumple a piece of scrap paper and toss it in the garbage without a second thought, they feel you crushed them, discarded them, and didn’t give them a second thought, either. So, they question their own value. They wonder if you truly love them – or if anyone could. They need to know why you now choose them over your affair partner, even if they don’t ask. Make your case convincingly. Be generous, but be genuine. They’ll know if you aren’t, and false flattery for the purpose of mere appeasement will only hurt them more.

REPEATING: Over and over again, they review the story, thinking the same thoughts. Do not attempt to stop them. Repeating helps them to absorb and process the painful reality. You can help them get through it by answering all their questions truthfully and filling in all the gaps for them. The more they know – the more they can repeat the complete story – the faster they process it, accept it and begin to heal. If the story remains incomplete or significant gaps are filled in later, they may have to start the process all over again.

IDEALIZING: Sometimes they remember only good memories, as if their time with you was perfect. They long to live in the past, before the affair came along and “messed it up.” Assure them that you, too, remember the good times, and want things to be good again. Remind them that you want an even better future, that you are willing to work at it, and, most importantly, that you want your future with them – and not your affair partner.

FRUSTRATION: Their past fulfillments are gone. They haven’t found new ones yet and don’t seem interested in finding any. They feel they’re not coping with grief “right” or they feel they should be healing faster. They don’t understand why the pain returns again and again. They wonder if they will ever recover and feel better. You can help them by verbalizing what they need to hear even if you don’t or can’t fully understand it yourself. Be empathetic and assure them that under the circumstances they’re doing okay. Remember that despite how much you have hurt them, you are still the one they chose as their life partner, for better or for worse. You may still be their closest confidante. As incongruous as it may seem, don’t be surprised if they choose to confide in you over others.

BITTERNESS: Feelings of resentment and hatred toward you and your paramour are to be expected. Don’t be surprised if they redirect much of the anger that’s really meant for you toward your paramour. This is natural. It’s actually a way of protecting their love for you during the early stages. By restricting their anger toward you, they allow it to be time-released, and only in smaller, more manageable amounts. Expect their anger to surface periodically, and give them plenty of time to work through it so they can eventually let go of it. Understand that until they’ve worked through and exhausted their anger, they cannot heal.

WAITING: The initial struggle is waning, but their zest for life has not returned. They are in limbo, they are exhausted and uncertain. Indeed, life seems flat and uninteresting. They are unenthused about socializing, perhaps reluctant, and they are unable to plan activities for themselves. Help them by finding ways to stimulate them. Plan activities for them around things that hold their interest and bring joy back into their life.

EMOTIONS IN CONFLICT: This is one of the most difficult manifestations because there is so much going on at the same time and their feelings do not always synchronize with reality. The most succinct description was provided by the late Shirley Glass, PhD: “One of the ironies of healing from infidelity is that the perpetrator must become the healer. This means that betrayed partners are vulnerable because the person they are most likely to turn to in times of trouble is precisely the source of their danger.” The inherent conflict for a betrayed spouse is obvious, but Dr. Glass also recognized how difficult this balancing act can be for a repentant adulterer: “On the other hand, [unfaithful] partners sometimes find it hard to stay engaged with their spouses when they know they are the source of such intense pain.” The key, of course, is to stay engaged nonetheless. Be supportive and remorseful, and above all… keep talking.

TRIGGERS: Particular dates, places, items and activities can bring back their pain as intensely as ever. It feels like they’re caught in a loop as they relive the trauma. It is emotionally debilitating.

Triggers can cause days and nights of depression, renew anger, and can spark and reignite nightmares, which may make them fear sleeping. Triggers can cause them to question if they will ever again experience life without the anguish. Get rid of all the reminders immediately: Gifts, letters, pictures, cards, emails, clothing… whatever your spouse associates with your affair. Do this with your spouse so they are not left wondering when those triggers may recur. Never cling to anything that bothers your partner. It leaves the impression that your keepsakes and mementos, or any reminders of your affair, are more important to you than they are.

Attend to your partner. Learn what dates, songs, places, etc., are triggers for your partner. Pay attention to your environment: If you hear or see something that you think might be a trigger, assume it is. Each occasion a trigger arises is an appropriate moment for you to communicate a clear and heartfelt message that you’re sorry you acted so selfishly and caused this recurring pain. So again, apologize and let them know how much you love them. The occurrence of a trigger is also a good opportunity to express that you choose them and not your affair partner, which is important for them to hear. If a trigger occurs in public, you can still wrap your arm around your spouse’s waist or shoulder, or simply squeeze their hand, but verbalize your apology as soon as you are alone again.

It is very important for you to understand and remember this… Triggers can remain active for their entire life. Don’t ever think or insist that enough time has passed that they should be “over it” because another sad truth of infidelity is: Your affair will remain a permanent memory for them, subject to involuntary recall at any time – even decades later. They will NEVER be “over it.” They simply learn to deal with it better as they heal, as you earn back their trust, and as you rebuild your relationship – over time.

SECTION 2 - WHAT ELSE CAN YOU DO TO EASE THEIR PAIN & RELIEVE THEIR STRESS?

Make certain you’ve killed the beast: Your affair must be over, in all respects, completely and forever. You cannot put your marriage in jeopardy ever again. Your spouse has given you a second chance that you probably don’t deserve. That may sound harsh, but think about it this way: Despite any marital problems the two of you experienced, you would certainly understand if they divorced you solely because of your adultery. So assume there will not be a third chance and behave accordingly.

This opportunity you have been bestowed is a monumental gift, particularly considering the anguish you caused them. Treat this gift, and your spouse, with care and due respect: No contact means NO CONTACT OF ANY KIND – EVER.

GET INTO THERAPY: Most attempts to heal and rebuild after infidelity will fail without the assistance of a qualified therapist. Make certain you both feel comfortable with the therapist. You must trust them and have faith in their methodology. Talk about it: If of you are uncomfortable with your therapist at any time, don’t delay – find another. And if need be, yet another. Then stick with it. Save particularly volatile topics for counselling sessions. Your therapist will provide a neutral place and safe means to discuss these subjects constructively. Every so often, think back to where you were two or three months earlier. Compare that to where you are now and determine if you’re making progress. Progress will be made slowly, not daily or even weekly, so do not perform daily or weekly evaluations. Make the comparative periods long enough to allow a “moderate-term” review rather than “short-term.” Expect setbacks or even restarts, and again… stick with it.

APOLOGIZE: Actually, that should read: “Apologize, apologize, apologize.” You cannot apologize too often, but you can apologize improperly. Apologize genuinely and fully. Betrayed spouses develop a finely calibrated “insincerity radar.” A partial or disingenuous apology will feel meaningless, condescending or even insulting, particularly during the months following discovery. Your spouse will feel better if you don’t merely say, “I’m sorry.” To a betrayed spouse that sounds and feels empty. Try to continue and complete the apology by saying everything that’s now salient to your partner: “I’m ashamed I cheated on you and I’m so very sorry. I know that my lying and deceiving you has hurt you enormously. I deeply want to earn back your trust – and I want so much for you to be able, some day, to forgive me.” As noted earlier, right now genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit.

REALIZE YOUR PARTNER WANTS TO FEEL BETTER: There is so much they have to deal with – pain, anger, disappointment, confusion and despair. Their being, their world, is swirling in a black hole of negative feelings. It’s agonizing. They wish it would stop, but they feel powerless to make it go away, which worries them even more. Remember that they can’t help it: Just as they didn’t choose for this to happen, they don’t choose to feel this way. Beyond all the possible feelings described in the section above (and that list may be incomplete in your spouse’s case), even if they don’t understand them, they do recognize that changes are occurring in themselves – and they are frightened by them. As terrible as it is for you to see their ongoing nightmare, it is far worse to live in it. Periodically assure them that you know they will get better, that you are willing to do everything necessary for them to heal and to make your marriage work. Reassure them that you are with them for the duration – no matter how long it takes – and that you intend to spend the rest of your life with them.

HIDE NOTHING, OPEN EVERYTHING: While they’re greatly angered and hurt that you were emotionally and/or sexually involved with another person, they are even more devastated by your secret life, your lies and deception. They feel no trust in you right now – and they’re 100% justified. If ever there was someone in the world they felt they could trust, it was you – until now. Now, they have difficulty believing anything you say. They are driven to check up on everything. Let them. Better still, help them. Overload them with access. The era of “covering your tracks” must end and be supplanted by total and voluntary transparency.

You must dismantle and remove every vestige of secrecy. Offer your spouse the passwords to your email accounts – yes, even the secret one they still don’t know about. Let them bring in the mail. If you receive a letter, card or email from your paramour, let your spouse open it. If you receive a voice or text message on your cell phone, let them retrieve it and delete it. If your friends provided alibis for you, end those friendships. Do not change your phone bill to a less detailed version or delete your browser history. Provide your spouse with your credit card bills, bank account statements, cell phone bills and anything else you think they might wish to check. Immediately tell them if you hear from or accidentally run into your affair partner. Tell them where you are going, when you’ll be home, and be on time. If your plans change, notify them immediately.

The more willing you are to be transparent, the more honesty and openness they see and feel, the more “trust chits” you’ll earn. Replacing your previously secret life with complete openness is the fastest and most effective way to promote trust, even if it feels unfair or uncomfortable. Think of this as the “reverse image” of your affair: Your affair was about you selfishly making yourself feel good. Now, rebuilding trust is about selflessly making your partner feel safe with you – and you were certainly unfair to them. Keep in mind that eventually they will trust you again, but you must earn it and it will take time.

SPEND LOTS TIME WITH THEM: Assume that they want your company at all times. The more time you spend in their sight, the more they will feel a sense of safety, if only for that time. There may be times when you feel they’re a constant, perhaps even an annoying presence. Just remember that they need to be around you – more than ever. If they need time alone, they’ll let you know and you must respect that, too. Knowing where you are and who you are with reduces worry, but expect them to check up on you. Don’t take offence when this happens. Instead, welcome the opportunity: Think of each time – and each success – as receiving a check mark in the “Passed the Test” column. The more check marks you earn, the closer you are to being trusted again.

PHYSICAL CONTACT: They may or may not want to be sexual with you. If not, allow sufficient time for them to get comfortable with the idea of renewed intimacy and let them set the pace. But if so, don’t be discouraged if the sex is not optimum. They’re likely to be low on confidence and may feel self-conscious or inept. They may even act clumsily. This can be offset by lots of simple, soothing physical gestures such as hugging them, stroking them softly and providing kisses. You might try surprising them sexually. Try something new. Choose moments when they don’t expect it – it can feel fresh again. On the other hand, don’t be surprised if their sexual appetite and arousal is unusually heightened as some partners experience what’s called ‘Hysterical Bonding.’ Also be aware that during lovemaking they may suffer intrusive thoughts or mental images of you and your affair partner, so they may suddenly shut down or even burst into tears. Again, apologize for making them feel this way. Express that you choose them – and not your affair partner. Reassure them by emphasizing that they are the only one you truly want.

SHARE YOUR FEELINGS OF GUILT AND SHAME: If you exhibit no shame or guilt for hurting them, they’ll wonder if you’re truly capable of being sensitive, caring or even feeling. They may see you as callous and self-absorbed, and question if it’s really worth another try with you. But if you’re like most people who have badly hurt someone you truly love, then you certainly feel shame and guilt, though verbalizing it may be hard for you. Of course, some people do find it difficult to express these feelings, but try. You’ll find it provides a great sense of relief to share this with your partner. Moreover, do not fail to realize is how vitally important it is for your partner to hear it, to feel it, to see it in your eyes. It’s a building block in the reconstruction of trust and the repair of your marriage. Do not underestimate the power of satisfying their need to know that you are disappointed in yourself. Your opening up about this will help them feel secure again, help them to heal, and help you heal, too.

LET THEM KNOW YOU ARE HAPPY WITH YOUR CHOICE TO RECOMMIT: You probably think this is obvious, but to your betrayed partner, precious little is obvious anymore. They will wonder about this. Do not make them guess, and do not make them ask. Just tell them. If it doesn’t seem to come naturally at first, it may help if every now and then, you ask yourself, “If they had betrayed me this way, would I still be here?” (Most of us would answer, “No,” even if we can’t imagine being in that position.) When people give second chances to others, they really want to know that it’s meaningful to, and appreciated by, the recipient. So, express your thanks. Tell them how grateful you are for the opportunity to repair the damage you’ve done and rebuild your marriage. You’ll be surprised how much this simple, heartfelt act of gratitude will mean to them, and how it helps to re-establish the bond between you.

HERE’S A GREAT TIP: You will find it’s particularly meaningful to them when they’re obviously feeling low, but they’re locked in silence and aren’t expressing it to you. Just imagine… In their moments of unspoken loneliness or despair, you walk up to them, hug them and say, “I just want you to know how grateful I am that you’re giving me a second chance. Thank you so much. I love you more than ever for this. I’ve been feeling so ashamed of what I did and how much pain I caused you. I want you to know that I’ll never do anything to hurt you like this – ever again. I know I broke your heart and it torments me. I want you to know your heart is safe with me again.”

These are beautifully comforting words, particularly when they’re delivered at such a perfect
moment. You can memorize the quote, modify it, or use your own words, whatever is most
comfortable for you. The key is to include, in no particular order, all six of these components:

A statement of gratitude.

An expression of your love.

An acknowledgment of your spouse’s pain.

An admission that you caused their pain.

An expression of your sense of shame.

A promise that it will never happen again

Unfaithful spouses I’ve counselled often report that this most welcome surprise is the best thing they did to lift their partner’s spirits – as well as their own.

SECTION 3 - SO WHAT ARE THE NEXT STAGES, AFTER THEY WORK THROUGH ALL THEIR GRIEF, PAIN AND STRESS?

HOPE: They believe they will get better. They still have good days and bad days, but the good days out balance the bad. Sometimes they can work effectively, enjoy activities and really care
for others.

COMMITMENT: They know they have a choice. Life won’t be the same, but they decide to actively begin building a new life.

SEEKING: They take initiative, renewing their involvement with former friends and activities. They
begin exploring new involvements.

PEACE: They feel able to accept the affair and its repercussions, and face their own future.

LIFE OPENS UP: Life has value and meaning again. They can enjoy, appreciate, and anticipate events. They are willing to let the rest of their life be all it can be. They can more easily seek and find joy.

FORGIVENESS: While the memory will never leave them, the burden they’ve been carrying from your betrayal is lifted. Given what you have done, the pain it caused them and the anguish they lived through, this is the ultimate gift they can bestow. They give it not only to you, but to themselves. Be grateful for this gift – and cherish it always.

Rejoice in your renewed commitment to spend your lives together in happiness. Celebrate it together regularly! *



A letter to the Wayward Spouse

To Whomever, 

I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. 

No one wants to be forced to 'look' at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn’t mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn’t he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I’m going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes. 

You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. 

You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you’re carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the 'STUFF' to figure out OUR reality. There isn’t really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don’t have. 

Now let’s enter my reality. Let’s both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. 

To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever 'feel' complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. 

When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don’t worry about it, it’s not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don’t worry about it, it’s not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what’s the difference, it’s not important. 

Then later when I’m expected to understand the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. 

You wonder why I can’t just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it. 

So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don’t you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. 

I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier. 

So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. 

It doesn’t come from jealousy, it doesn’t come from spitefulness, and it doesn’t come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn’t it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn’t it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can’t and the reason I can’t is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world.


----------



## Carrie420

sandc said:


> There are a lot of betrayed spouses in this thread. "Why" is going to be their number one question. Kudos for coming into the thread. Yes, you will have a lot of rocks thrown at you. But if you weather it out and answer the questions you may find that ultimately we want to help.


I will answer those questions for all to hear. In due time, when our marriage councilor approves.

Mainly, I just want all you people to help Jack. If it works out that you help me too, then fine. I'll take it.

Jack is worthy of your continued help. I know I'm not.


----------



## happyman64

Carrie420 said:


> I will answer those questions for all to hear. In due time, when our marriage councilor approves.
> 
> Mainly, I just want all you people to help Jack. If it works out that you help me too, then fine. I'll take it.
> 
> Jack is worthy of your continued help. * I know I'm not*.


*But you can be, if you really want to be. Never forget it!*


----------



## Carrie420

happyman64 said:


> *But you can be, if you really want to be. Never forget it!*


Thank you HappyMan. Thank you so much. I do want to be.


----------



## happyman64

Carrie420 said:


> Thank you HappyMan. Thank you so much. I do want to be.


Carrie

Do not thank me, thank your husband.



> She is beautiful, sexy, engaging, humorous, strong, smart, etc.


These are his words describing you. He did this in a few posts.

Now prove him, right!

HM


----------



## Carrie420

just got it 55 said:


> OK Carrie you have so much work ahead of you. Do you have it in you ?
> 
> You have showed some courage coming here. And as long as you are truthful and face the challenges ahead of you with honorable intentions you will have my support and the support of others.
> 
> HM64 is a very honorable man. And you were smart to point out his positive impact on your husband.
> 
> So please don’t waste his time being evasive in answering questions you need to answer.
> 
> Starting with
> 
> WHY
> 
> Good luck I’m hoping you and Walt / Jack get through this
> 
> 55


Thank you. I am determined to be as honest and transparent as possible when answering the tough questions. Jack deserves no less.


----------



## Carrie420

happyman64 said:


> Carrie
> 
> Do not thank me, thank your husband.
> 
> These are his words describing you. He did this in a few posts.
> 
> Now prove him, right!
> 
> HM


I am crying so heavily now...how could he love me so after what I did to him? He deserved better than me. But he chooses to stick with me even though he could have his choice of many single women. I feel so low. And undeserving.


----------



## WyshIknew

Carrie420 said:


> One thing I’ve noticed is that some of you think I was involved in an active affair for a year. It wasn’t like that at all. I’m not trying to minimize what I did, but it was a very short affair.
> And I’ll be glad to state so under a polygraph. We’re actually doing a polygraph this coming week. I insisted.


That's probably because Walter stated it was a year long affair at the start.

You say you love your hubby etc. but a year long affair?

Have you bought hubby a new bed yet out of your own money? Not family money.
Because I wouldn't be sleeping in that bed having seen that.


----------



## Carrie420

happyman64 said:


> Carrie
> 
> Do not thank me, thank your husband.
> 
> 
> 
> These are his words describing you. He did this in a few posts.
> 
> Now prove him, right!
> 
> HM





WyshIknew said:


> That's probably because Walter stated it was a year long affair at the start.
> 
> You say you love your hubby etc. but a year long affair?
> 
> Have you bought hubby a new bed yet out of your own money? Not family money.
> Because I wouldn't be sleeping in that bed having seen that.


It was not a year long affair. Jack was convinced he had been noticing "changes" for a year. But the affair itself was short. Very short. But that doesn't excuse it.


----------



## just got it 55

Carrie420 said:


> Thank you HappyMan. Thank you so much. I do want to be.


Carrie & Walt The best thing God ever made is another day

Make them count

55


----------



## raven3321

Carrie,

We're so delighted you're here. Just wanted you to know that we are all rooting for you and Jack. I live in the Los Angeles area and really wanted to somehow meet you guys in Pasadena. However, I know that wasn't the purpose of your trip. By the way, sorry about Auburn Jack.


----------



## Carrie420

raven3321 said:


> Carrie,
> 
> We're so delighted you're here. Just wanted you to know that we are all rooting for you and Jack. I live in the Los Angeles area and really wanted to somehow meet you guys in Pasadena. However, I know that wasn't the purpose of your trip. By the way, sorry about Auburn Jack.


Jack and I cheered and yelled and screamed for Auburn so much that we lost our voice. They lost, and that was tough to bear seeing that they scored the leading touchdown with only a minute left to play. But they played well, and had such a great season. We were so proud of them.


----------



## jim123

Carrie420 said:


> Hello everyone. I’m Walter’s (Jack’s) wife, Carrie.
> 
> I’ve just finished reading this entire thread. My therapist and Jack’s therapist recommended this web site. So here I am. If it becomes a circus because of my presence, I’ll start a separate thread, or just leave. I’m not trying to hijack Jack’s thread.
> 
> Reading through all the posts here, I’ve seen how quickly he progressed with help of people like HappyMan. Thank you.
> 
> What I did to Jack was worse than horrible. There was no good reason, and there’s no excuse. It was all my fault. Jack has gone through hell. And it’s been hell for me to watch him hurt, struggle, question, wonder in bewilderment, etc. I’ve tortured myself inside because of it. Because I put him there. And I love him with all my heart and soul.
> 
> I put him there, and I’m the one who has to bring him out. Because he deserves it, and because I need him and love him so. I’ve got to be there for him the way he was for me in college. He didn’t tell you people that he saved my life in college, did he? But he did. He truly risked his life to save mine, and in the process won my heart forever. We were already deeply in love, but his willingness to give his life for mine made me adore him like I can’t explain.
> 
> Then why did I hurt him so? I’ll work through those questions in due time with our marriage councilor, who has requested (demanded) that we wait for her guidance before we try and tackle those kinds of tough questions.
> 
> With the gentle pushing of his therapist and some of you good people here, Jack finally agreed to the Pasadena trip. Thank you so much. We had a chance to reconnect, unify, and strengthen one another for the hard battles ahead.
> 
> I have dedicated the rest of my life to healing Jack. I hurt my soul mate and the best husband in the world in the most destructive way possible. I’m facing that head-on. I’m not running from it or making excuses. I’m trying to show Jack that all I really want for the rest of my life is to be his wife and lover. That’s all that’s important to me now.
> 
> I’ll never forget something Jack said a few days after “DDAY”. He said “You’ve done worse than kill me. I would rather suffer a slow, horrible death from cancer than face what you did. We were so great together. Why?”. I didn’t have an answer. I didn’t want to live and contemplated suicide. But ironically, it was my love for him that kept me from suicide. I owe him so much.
> 
> I’m doing everything my therapist said to do to help Jack. But I still know that while I’m sleeping at night, Jack is lying awake beside me with things going through his mind that torture him. If I could take his pain on me and bear it for him, I would.
> 
> I was warned that I might be bashed relentlessly if I came on this web site. But please, respect this as Jack’s thread. If you want to call me names and hurl insults, just PM me.
> 
> One thing I’ve noticed is that some of you think I was involved in an active affair for a year. It wasn’t like that at all. I’m not trying to minimize what I did, but it was a very short affair.
> And I’ll be glad to state so under a polygraph. We’re actually doing a polygraph this coming week. I insisted.
> 
> If you’re angered by my presence or anything I’ve said here, please don’t take it out on Jack. He’s suffered enough because of me.
> 
> We’re going to make it. I won’t stand for any other outcome.


The outcome should be what is best for Jack and that may not include you.

Keep in mind that you will be able to put this behind you but Jack will not. The best he can do is learn who to live with it. He will think about this everyday for the rest of his life.

Some of us are tough on the WS. You just stabbed the love of your life in the heart, it is going to take a while for us to warm up to you.

In many cases the tough crowd will say things but often they are things that your BH is thinks. Learn to communicate with us then you will be able to communicate with Jack.


----------



## WyshIknew

And the bed?


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: My Living Hell*



Carrie420 said:


> Thank you. I am determined to be as honest and transparent as possible when answering the tough questions. Jack deserves no less.


Be honest yes but only give him as much detail as he asks for. Once you hear something you can't "un-hear" it.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: My Living Hell*



Carrie420 said:


> I am crying so heavily now...how could he love me so after what I did to him? He deserved better than me. But he chooses to stick with me even though he could have his choice of many single women. I feel so low. And undeserving.


You are deserving of his love as long as he says you are. He needs a strong capable woman by his side. Just because you did a bad thing does not mean you have to be a bad person. Become worthy of his love once again and you will make it.


----------



## Carrie420

jim123 said:


> The outcome should be what is best for Jack and that may not include you.
> 
> Keep in mind that you will be able to put this behind you but Jack will not. The best he can do is learn who to live with it. He will think about this everyday for the rest of his life.
> 
> Some of us are tough on the WS. You just stabbed the love of your life in the heart, it is going to take a while for us to warm up to you.
> 
> In many cases the tough crowd will say things but often they are things that your BH is thinks. Learn to communicate with us then you will be able to communicate with Jack.


I will only put this behind me when Jack does. I do not accept that our marriage will forever be dogged by something that was all my fault. Jack is stronger than that. But in the end, only time will tell. I still maintain that true love can conquer all. And I know that what Jack and I have for one another is true love.


----------



## Carrie420

WyshIknew said:


> And the bed?


Jack had it hauled away to the dump just after "DDay". We now sleep in one of the guest bedrooms. We are selling the house, and moving into my condo this week.


----------



## Carrie420

bfree said:


> Be honest yes but only give him as much detail as he asks for. Once you hear something you can't "un-hear" it.


I appreciate that. But my dumb reasons for the affair, and my non-satisfaction from it, may work for us more than some think. After a 15 minute phone conversation with our new marriage councilor, I have hopes. Time will tell. Wish us luck.


----------



## Graywolf2

Mrs. John Adams said:


> John and I wish you both the best. R is not an easy road. We have been working on it for thirty years. I think of stabbing my love in the heart...and when he triggers I know it is my fault. I would give anything if I could take it all away. The reason we are still together is the deep love we have for one another*....and great sex ...lol*It sounds like it won't take you thirty years like it has us!


Thirty years of sex counts a lot. :smthumbup:



Carrie420 said:


> Jack and I cheered and yelled and screamed for Auburn so much that we lost our voice.


I had a bet with myself that you two wouldn't make it to the game. Looks like I lost too.

Best wishes to the two of you.


----------



## Carrie420

just got it 55 said:


> Carrie & Walt The best thing God ever made is another day
> 
> Make them count
> 
> 55


We will, I promise.


----------



## jim123

Carrie420 said:


> I will only put this behind me when Jack does. I do not accept that our marriage will forever be dogged by something that was all my fault. Jack is stronger than that. But in the end, only time will tell. I still maintain that true love can conquer all. And I know that what Jack and I have for one another is true love.
> 
> But I do deserve punishment. And I welcome it. I basically shafted god in shafting Jack. So I deserve my share of punishment. Bring it on.


That is the problem with the WS. You have no idea what you have done to the BS.

Your marriage may not be dogged but this will always be part of Jack. It does not matter how strong Jack is.

I know what you say makes you feel better and makes it all ok.

Jack will have to learn how to live with what you did. It is like loosing a limb.


----------



## Carrie420

jim123 said:


> That is the problem with the WS. You have no idea what you have done to the BS.
> 
> Your marriage may not be dogged but this will always be part of Jack. It does not matter how strong Jack is.
> 
> I know what you say makes you feel better and makes it all ok.
> 
> Jack will have to learn how to live with what you did. It is like loosing a limb.


Maybe you're right. I don't really know. But I will work as hard as anyone ever has to prove you wrong. Doubt me all you want, but you'd be smart not to bet against me.


----------



## jim123

Carrie420 said:


> Maybe you're right. I don't really know. But I will work as hard as anyone ever has to prove you wrong. Doubt me all you want, but you'd be smart not to bet against me.


Carrie this is not a doubt about you. You can not control another person. I am giving you an understanding. Read other threads.

You can have a very good marriage going forward. Some have seen better marriages however, this is always part of the BS. The BS must learn to deal with it.

You can help minimize this and make it easier to go through but it will always be within him. Understand this and learn to deal with it yourself.

He will have triggers, anger and depression. You will see threads were a BS is still in pain 30 years later.


----------



## Carrie420

bfree said:


> You are deserving of his love as long as he says you are. He needs a strong capable woman by his side. Just because you did a bad thing does not mean you have to be a bad person. Become worthy of his love once again and you will make it.


Thank you so much.


----------



## jim123

Carrie420 said:


> Thank you. I hope we can be the exception. It's just my personality to never accept defeat for any reason. I never accept losing. There's no point in it. We will succeed or die trying.


It is not winning or losing, it is understanding.

If you understand, you will succeed. Understand that he will have issues because of this. Help him through these issues.

Anything can be overcome,


----------



## Carrie420

jim123 said:


> It is not winning or losing, it is understanding.
> 
> If you understand, you will succeed. Understand that he will have issues because of this. Help him through these issues.
> 
> Anything can be overcome,


Thank you. I will help him as much as he needs.


----------



## Carrie420

Thank you all. It's been a great first night of being here. I've been encouraged so much. I appreciate your support and well wishes. And your blunt honesty. I can take it. And will appreciate it. 

Good night all. Thank you so much for helping Jack. He is very worthy of your time and efforts to help.


----------



## sandc

Where is Walter/Jack?


----------



## WalterWhite420

sandc said:


> Where is Walter/Jack?


I'm here...we've "trimmed" to only one computer in the house, so I only have one computer to check and install key logger software on...

Thank you all for respecting my wife. I appreciate it.


----------



## Thinkitthrough

It has been 14 years since my wife's last affair and I think about it most days. Had a huge trigger last week from some of my wife's keepsakes I found while packing to move. I am changed and the man I was before her affairs is long gone. The girl I married is gone, because my wife has changed, parts of her remain but other things are gone. Our old relationship is dead, so we have had to forge a new one.
I guess what I am trying to say, but haven't read in your thread is that no matter what, you will never rebuild your old marriage. You can build a new marriage that can be so much better than the old one was. Sadly, however your cheating and his pain because of it never quite goes away. At least that's been my experience


----------



## CouldItBeSo

Carrie, there seems to be some confusion about this. I mean, why did you let the OM pursue you for years? I would think even the worst workplace harassers would give up without any encouragement.


Carrie420 said:


> It was not a year long affair. Jack was convinced he had been noticing "changes" for a year. But the affair itself was short. Very short. But that doesn't excuse it.





WalterWhite420 said:


> Anyway, my wife swore to me that it was a "first". Her lover was a co-worker than *had pursued her relentlessly for years*, and she finally gave in after a night of bar-hopping together while I was away tending to my sick mother. The affair continued for about a year until my above-described D Day.


----------



## WyshIknew

CouldItBeSo said:


> Carrie, there seems to be some confusion about this. I mean, why did you let the OM pursue you for years? I would think even the worst workplace harassers would give up without any encouragement.


:iagree:

As I mentioned in Samdews thread, the first step is to rebuff his advances tell him you are uncomfortable with this.
The second step is to warn him that you will inform your husband and management if he continues.

If he still persists then inform hubby and management.

Anything else other than directly shutting him down is encouragement.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Something I always wonder about is the need for help from a "counsellor" to understand why one cheated as opposed to the basic ones like "lust". "because I didn't think I would be caught and we all are capable of doing wrong things if we think we would enjoy it and wouldn't be caught" etc.

I genuinely have struggled with this question of mine and once again here I am not sure that a counsellor can help. Perhaps the best thing for the OP (WalterWhite - a favourite character of mine too) is to face these basic (actually more understandable) reasons rather than anything a counsellor might offer - but then again I have never had any good results from counsellors.


----------



## crazyace

how did your affair start ?
when did it start ?
how did it start ?
then we can also talk about why ...
all these questions are very important, because it defines your state of mind and work you would need to do to ensure this never happens again


----------



## sandc

Walter and Carrie,
A couple of posters are mentioning it and I want to highlight it again. You guys seem to be trying to capture what you once had. You can't. You're old marriage is dead. Neither one of you are the people you used to be. What you once had was a cheating woman and a man who was a cuckold. Build something new. Something built on knowing who you both really are.


----------



## warlock07

Carrie, good to see your commitment to help Walter but couple of things grounded in reality.

R takes a long time and will be extremely hard on both of you...

Right now is the high point of your R process because you are staring with so much hope..

Grandiose statements are easy. Following them up is not.

We had a guy who's WS promised him that she would "never give up on them" early in R . Few months later, she framed him for weed possession and had him arrested. Now, he has no job, losing his house and minimal custody...


----------



## bandit.45

Carrie420 said:


> I appreciate that. But my dumb reasons for the affair, and my non-satisfaction from it, may work for us more than some think. After a 15 minute phone conversation with our new marriage councilor, I have hopes. Time will tell. Wish us luck.


Here are some possible reasons you may want to explore with your counselor:

1) Non-existent or relaxed boundaries. 

You and your husband never really sat down at any point in your marriage and established the ground rules... what either one of you will accept and won't accept in the marriage. For some reason, what personal boundaries you used to have, you for some reason allowed those boundaries to fall for this other man. 

2) Sex addiction. 

This may or may not apply to you but it is something to look into. 

3) Something missing in yourself.

Number one reason so many spouses stray. The marriage relationship may be great but something within the wayward is always "missing". The "what if" is always present, no matter how well their spouse treats them. 

4) Unresolved Family of Origin Issues (FOO).

You had issues growing up that cause you to have poor coping skills, and that lack of coping skills effected your ability to maintain a long term relationship with your husband. 

5) Lack of physical attraction to your partner. 

6) Entitlement.

This is a huge problem with many cheaters. Many cheaters have narcissistic personality qualities that make them think "my happiness is paramount. I have the right to explore my sexuality..."

7) Lack of morals.

The wayward is simply a slvt, with no moral fiber or code of ethics and proper conduct. 

These are just a few reasons why people cheat. But none of them are good reasons. None of them justify cheating.


----------



## bandit.45

sandc said:


> Walter and Carrie,
> A couple of posters are mentioning it and I want to highlight it again. You guys seem to be trying to capture what you once had. You can't. You're old marriage is dead. Neither one of you are the people you used to be. What you once had was a cheating woman and a man who was a cuckold. Build something new. Something built on knowing who you both really are.


This is huge Carrie, and totally true. 

That loving, mutually respectful relationship you had with your husband is gone forever. 

You and he will have to let the old marriage go and buuild a new one. That's not to say the new marriage cannot be better than the old, but it will never be the same. 

Understand that he is suffering from PTSD, just like a soldier who has been through combat and has seen death. Seeing you underneath another man in his bed is an image that will never leave his mind, till the day he dies. He will eventually learn to live with it, but it will always be there. So your task now is to somehow help hm work through that pain and trauma, help him to put aside the mind movies.

I do not envy you the next couple of years. Walter will be on a roller coaster: one day he will be fine and loving just like his old self, the next day he will be screaming at you and calling you every nasty name in the book. Be ready for it. Expect it. And most importantly... don't run from it. Face up to it and reassure him you are truly remorseful and that you understand the pain you have caused him.


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## Carrie420

CouldItBeSo said:


> Carrie, there seems to be some confusion about this. I mean, why did you let the OM pursue you for years? I would think even the worst workplace harassers would give up without any encouragement.


This has been a contention for us for months. The truth is, the affair lasted only a short time. And I'm going to say so under a polygraph later this week.

Jack was so devastated and we had so many emotional conversations where he threw up or almost passed out from being sick. I was evasive and vague in my answers at first and on valium (prescription) most of the time in the first few weeks. Somehow Jack came out of those conversations thinking the affair lasted for a year. But it was very short.

All I can do is tell the truth to the best of my ability and back it up with polygraphs. And I'm glad to do it.


----------



## bandit.45

Carrie I recommend you read this thread from beginning to end. Lots of good stuff in here and the thread is mostly made up of couples going through reconcilliation. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/52974-reconciliation.html


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## Carrie420

crazyace said:


> how did your affair start ?
> when did it start ?
> how did it start ?
> then we can also talk about why ...
> all these questions are very important, because it defines your state of mind and work you would need to do to ensure this never happens again


I will answer all these questions and any others asked in therapy with Jack, at home with Jack, under a polygraph, and on this web site. In due time. I'm not going to be evasive.


----------



## Carrie420

bandit.45 said:


> Carrie I recommend you read this thread from beginning to end. Lots of good stuff in here and the thread is mostly made up of couples going through reconcilliation.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/52974-reconciliation.html


Thank you. I will.


----------



## Carrie420

sandc said:


> Walter and Carrie,
> A couple of posters are mentioning it and I want to highlight it again. You guys seem to be trying to capture what you once had. You can't. You're old marriage is dead. Neither one of you are the people you used to be. What you once had was a cheating woman and a man who was a cuckold. Build something new. Something built on knowing who you both really are.


I see what you're getting at. Our MC said as much in our sessions earlier today. And I think we've already begun building something new.


----------



## mahike

Carrie it is a big step when a WW comes on the forum with her BS. Most of us here want to jump down your throat because of our own pain. 

It really does not matter if it was a short time or a year. You killed a marriage. It is dead. It took me a very long time to understand that in my own case. 

What you have to do is build a new marriage built on a new love and a new trust. I am not saying to give up the past memories. Right now he has very little trust in what you are saying and has very little experience with the new you. The old wife would not cheat. So he looks at everything you do and say with a lack of trust.

He is in for a ride with his emotions and you need to be understanding when he triggers and or has mind movie with you and that POS OM.

My wife just the other day said to me I never really understood the depth of the pain you are enduring. That was big for us. You have not idea how bad a man can feel when a doctor is checking out your package and running blood test for STD's. His Ego is just gone and has to be rebuilt.

I wish you both luck. R is a long and bumpy road but I am starting to believe it is worth it.


----------



## Carrie420

CouldItBeSo said:


> Carrie, there seems to be some confusion about this. I mean, why did you let the OM pursue you for years? I would think even the worst workplace harassers would give up without any encouragement.


Jack used the word "relentlessly". And I'm sure it seemed so to him. The other guy did hit on me here and there over the past 2 years.

Please, let me answer your question honestly without being interpreted as obnoxious. If Jack and I had a conversation about every guy who's hit on me or every girl who's hit on him, that would be too much of that kind of talk. For both of us.

Does everybody here come home every day and tell their spouse about someone who overly flirted with them that day? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just wondering.


----------



## sandc

You appear to be evasive to us. We are asking simple questions that you know the answers to. If you want Walter to have honest answers then just answer honestly. You don't need your marriage councilor's permission for that.

You keep saying the affair only lasted a short time. What does that mean. Because from Walter's description:


WalterWhite420 said:


> a strange man on top of my wife, with her legs WRAPPED AROUND HIM, and him going to town like a Singer sewing machine...and her moaning in pleasure.


That doesn't sound like it was exactly your first time with him. Sounds like you two were very comfortable together.


----------



## sandc

Carrie420 said:


> Jack used the word "relentlessly". And I'm sure it seemed so to him. The other guy did hit on me here and there over the past 2 years.
> 
> Please, let me answer your question honestly without being interpreted as obnoxious. If Jack and I had a conversation about every guy who's hit on me or every girl who's hit on him, that would be too much of that kind of talk. For both of us.
> 
> Does everybody here come home every day and tell their spouse about someone who overly flirted with them that day? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just wondering.


My wife and I do. Not that we're all that great looking nor does it happen every day but when it does happen, yes we let the other one know. I let my wife determine whether or not another woman's attention toward me is going to bother my wife or not. But I grant that we may be different than most.


----------



## mahike

Carrie420 said:


> I will only put this behind me when Jack does. I do not accept that our marriage will forever be dogged by something that was all my fault. Jack is stronger than that. But in the end, only time will tell. I still maintain that true love can conquer all. And I know that what Jack and I have for one another is true love.


The elephant in the room will always be the A you had. The question will be can you grow past it. The past is the past but it leaves scars. 

Keep in mind when he starts asking you about what, where, how and why he will ask those questions again and again. Each time there will be a piece of what you said he can grasp and process. It will take awhile for him to get to a place where that is enough for him.


----------



## Carrie420

Jack had a rough night last night. Nights are the hardest time for him. While I'm asleep. He was in and out of bed all night. He finally went to sleep about 4:30AM.

I don't know which is the hardest part for me; watching him hurt so bad, or knowing that I'm the one that caused the hurt. He loves me so much that he's willing to go through the hell of reconciliation. That's very humbling to me.

I asked him this morning how he could love me so much after what I did. He said he didn't know. But that he did, even though he tried not to for many months. 

I know I was dealt a good hand in life, but Jack is the ace. I didn't deserve him.


----------



## Carrie420

sandc said:


> You appear to be evasive to us. We are asking simple questions that you know the answers to. If you want Walter to have honest answers then just answer honestly. You don't need your marriage councilor's permission for that.
> 
> You keep saying the affair only lasted a short time. What does that mean. Because from Walter's description:
> 
> 
> That doesn't sound like it was exactly your first time with him. Sounds like you two were very comfortable together.


I will answer all in due time, and I will be glad for Jack to report the results of all my polygraphs here.


----------



## happyman64

Carrie

The key in all of this mess is to be honest.

From what Jack has told us you have been honest and open with detail.

Never be evasive again. I know you understand this.

Follow your MC's advice, take the polygraph test and then focus on you.

Yes Jack will need you over these next few weeks and months.

That is your cross to bear.

But never lose focus on your goal.

The 1st step is to fix you. To figure out the why.

The 2nd step knowing the why is how to fix your marriage aka recreating a new trusting relationship.

One step at a time. At times it will seem overwhelming but if you guys are open and honest with each other then the foundation is there to be a great team again.

HM


----------



## BetrayedDad

Carrie420 said:


> I will answer all in due time, and I will be glad for Jack to report the results of all my polygraphs here.


Why don't you just answer it now? Just sounds like you're being shady and evasive. Why do cheaters LOVE asking for time? What's wrong with now? Perhaps time to get your story straight? The fact that Walter STILL has questions automatically tells me that you're not as commited to making things right as much as you are "fixing" things (ie rug sweeping). There's a BIG difference. The truth is sometimes a deal breaker and that's why cheaters trickle truth. Maybe Walter NEEDS to know EVERY horrible thing you've done so he can make an INFORMED decision on whether you're more trouble than your worth.


----------



## Carrie420

Jack and I had a good morning. First, we went out to breakfast. Then we went and formally halted divorce proceedings. That was a relief for both of us. When we got done, we had a long embrace. It was encouraging.

Then Jack dropped me off at the MC. I had a 45-minute session alone with the MC, then Jack had one with her also. Afterwards, she sat us both down for about 5 minutes. She said there were 2 things that were clear about our case: that we are completely mad crazy in love with one another, and that we are both strong enough to overcome this. She said that it is possible for the marriage to be as good or better than before, and that she could see Jack being able to put this behind him/us.

She said it could take years, but that we have all the qualities of the couples who've had the most success at reconciliation.

She also said that although our tremendous love for one another would be a great strength, it would also be somewhat of a hinderance for Jack, because that much love means greater pain from what I did.

Jack is asleep now. We have a 3:00 session together with the MC this afternoon. She asked this morning if we had heard that she has unorthodox methods. I said yes, some of her references had mentioned that. She said she was going to give us some "homework" at our session this afternoon, and that it would seem silly and awkward at first, but that she had no tolerance for any couples who did not do exactly as she says. And I could tell she meant it.

We'll do whatever she says.


----------



## Carrie420

BetrayedDad said:


> Why don't you just answer it now? Just sounds like you're being shady and evasive. Why do cheaters LOVE asking for time? What's wrong with now? Perhaps time to get your story straight? The fact that Walter STILL has questions automatically tells me that you're not as commited to making things right as much as you are "fixing" things (ie rug sweeping). There's a BIG difference. The truth is sometimes a deal breaker and that's why cheaters trickle truth. Maybe Walter NEEDS to know EVERY horrible thing you've done so he can make an INFORMED decision on whether you're more trouble than your worth.


We're doing exactly what our MC told us. She wants us to allow her to lead us through those discussions, and help us come to the right conclusions. She asked us to wait for her guidance.


----------



## Carrie420

mahike said:


> Carrie it is a big step when a WW comes on the forum with her BS. Most of us here want to jump down your throat because of our own pain.
> 
> It really does not matter if it was a short time or a year. You killed a marriage. It is dead. It took me a very long time to understand that in my own case.
> 
> What you have to do is build a new marriage built on a new love and a new trust. I am not saying to give up the past memories. Right now he has very little trust in what you are saying and has very little experience with the new you. The old wife would not cheat. So he looks at everything you do and say with a lack of trust.
> 
> He is in for a ride with his emotions and you need to be understanding when he triggers and or has mind movie with you and that POS OM.
> 
> My wife just the other day said to me I never really understood the depth of the pain you are enduring. That was big for us. You have not idea how bad a man can feel when a doctor is checking out your package and running blood test for STD's. His Ego is just gone and has to be rebuilt.
> 
> I wish you both luck. R is a long and bumpy road but I am starting to believe it is worth it.


Thank you. I think it will be worth it for us too.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Carrie420 said:


> We're doing exactly what our MC told us. She wants us to allow her to lead us through those discussions, and help us come to the right conclusions. She asked us to wait for her guidance.


Your counselor stinks... Just sounds like she wants to drag this out so she can keep collecting her visitation fee. If you were 100% open and honest you wouldn't even need a counselor. There is no such thing as a right or wrong conclusion. Just sounds to me like Jack is being manipulated because he obviously is in a fog himself over you.

When I was betrayed I wanted every detail immediately because the pain from the mind movies and not knowing was unbearable. I only started to heal AFTER I got the full truth. All you're doing is prolonging the agony. If you TRUELY wish not to hurt him anymore then wake him up from his nap and tell him.


----------



## Carrie420

BetrayedDad said:


> Your counselor stinks... Just sounds like she wants to drag this out so she can keep collecting her visitation fee. If you were 100% open and honest you wouldn't even need a counselor. There is no such thing as a right or wrong conclusion. Just sounds to me like Jack is being manipulated because he obviously is in a fog himself over you.
> 
> When I was betrayed I wanted every detail immediately because the pain from the mind movies and not knowing was unbearable. I only started to heal AFTER I got the full truth. All you're doing is prolonging the agony. If you TRUELY wish not to hurt him anymore then wake him up from his nap and tell him.


We went though all of this at our first attempt at reconciliation. Jack was just like you. He wanted all the details, and we had very unproductive discussions, and nothing was solved. It didn't work. For this attempt at reconciliation, I found the most highly regarded MC in our area. She was described by several of her references (I checked many of them) as the MC that MCs go to when they have trouble in their marriage. I don't care what she charges.

I'm not prolonging anything. I've been pursuing Jack and reconciliation for months. I'm willing to do whatever needs to be done.

I'm trying to answer your question as honestly as possible.

But you're wrong about councilors. Jack's IC brought him out of some dark places, and so did mine for me. MCs are recommended by almost every marriage help book, web site, etc.


----------



## warlock07

sandc said:


> You appear to be evasive to us. We are asking simple questions that you know the answers to. If you want Walter to have honest answers then just answer honestly. You don't need your marriage councilor's permission for that.
> 
> You keep saying the affair only lasted a short time. What does that mean. Because from Walter's description:
> 
> 
> That doesn't sound like it was exactly your first time with him. Sounds like you two were very comfortable together.



I am no saint either but this question seems a bit too personal for someone who started posting on TAM yesterday...Quoting the particular text either

And calling her evasive for not posting explicit details of her affair is not a good direction for the community to take either..

Not trying to offend you though..


----------



## warlock07

BetrayedDad said:


> Why don't you just answer it now? Just sounds like you're being shady and evasive. Why do cheaters LOVE asking for time? What's wrong with now? Perhaps time to get your story straight? The fact that Walter STILL has questions automatically tells me that you're not as commited to making things right as much as you are "fixing" things (ie rug sweeping). There's a BIG difference. The truth is sometimes a deal breaker and that's why cheaters trickle truth. Maybe Walter NEEDS to know EVERY horrible thing you've done so he can make an INFORMED decision on whether you're more trouble than your worth.


BD, i have a lot of respect for you but she does not owe us these details. She owes them to Walter..
Not everyone can come online and post the details of their affairs in explicit detail..


----------



## BetrayedDad

warlock07 said:


> BD, i have a lot of respect for you but she does not owe us these details. She owes them to Walter..
> Not everyone can come online and post the details of their affairs in explicit detail..


I don't disagree with you. She doesn't have to post anything online.

Unless I'm mistaken, from what I'm reading Walter/Jack doesn't have the full story. That's what I take issue with.


----------



## warlock07

BetrayedDad said:


> I don't disagree with you. She doesn't have to post anything online.
> 
> Unless I'm mistaken, from what I'm reading Walter/Jack doesn't have the full story. That's what I take issue with.


The classic dilemma with infidelity. I think Walt doesn't believe her story.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Carrie420 said:


> But you're wrong about councilors. Jack's IC brought him out of some dark places, and so did mine for me. MCs are recommended by almost every marriage help book, web site, etc.


I'm not implying conselors aren't helpful for some. They can certainly help deal with strong emotions you both may be dealing with. However, they're not there to dig for information. All of these details should be known to Jack already. 

For example, why does Jack think this went on for a year and you claim it was a short affair? Is there something else you're withholding that he may discover later on? Why doesn't he believe your story? You should both be on the same page with ALL the details by now. From what I read, clearly HE doesn't feel like he knows everything. Why is that? Obviously, there is some trickle truth or serious disconnect in communication.


----------



## bandit.45

Carrie was this your first affair? You don't have to tell us, but you need to come clean with Walter if this was not your first cruise around the infidelity block. 

I would recommend to Walter that he make this one of your lie detector questions.


----------



## Carrie420

bandit.45 said:


> Carrie was this your first affair? You don't have to tell us, but you need to come clean with Walter if this was not your first cruise around the infidelity block.
> 
> I would recommend to Walter that he make this one of your lie detector questions.


This was my first affair of any kind. I have told Jack that, and it will be one of the questions on my polygraph this week.


----------



## bandit.45

One more thing, and this is a big one for betrayed husbands:

If you did things sexually with your affair partner that you had beforehand refused to do with your husband, or had told him you did not enjoy doing, then you better have an explanation ready as to why...and a good one that Walter will accept. 

Refusing to do anything sexually for Walter that you willingly did for the OM will kill any chance at re-building the intimacy the two of you once had. Time and again on this forum we have seen former wayward wives derail reconcilliation by having been sexually open with their OMs and not willing to share themselves the same way with their husbands.


----------



## Carrie420

bandit.45 said:


> One more thing, and this is a big one for betrayed husbands:
> 
> If you did things sexually with your affair partner that you had beforehand refused to do with your husband, or had told him you did not enjoy doing, then you better have an explanation ready as to why...and a good one that Walter will accept.
> 
> Refusing to do anything sexually for Walter that you willingly did for the OM will kill any chance at re-building the intimacy the two of you once had. Time and again on this forum we have seen former wayward wives derail reconcilliation by having been sexually open with their OMs and not willing to share themselves the same way with their husbands.


There was nothing like this. Honestly. I've never turned Jack down for anything in bed.


----------



## bandit.45

Carrie420 said:


> There was nothing like this. Honestly. I've never turned Jack down for anything in bed.


Good. You dodged a bullet on that. You wouldn't believe some of the dipsh!t wayward wives we see on this thread who have this bizarre hangup.


----------



## Carrie420

Off to MC. I'll let Jack do the posting, if any, when we get back. I'm afraid my presence here is upsetting some of you that have been through what Jack is going through. I don't mind being an emotional punching bag, but none of you deserve to hurt any more because of me. I've caused enough hurt for the whole world.


----------



## seasalt

Jack's wife,

I have given this suggestion to other faithless people before on this site. Try to hold onto some measure of dignity if not for yourself but for your husband. He has already lowered his opinion of your worth and he will be assessing the revelations you will be providing in your therapy sessions and polygraphs yet to come. You don't have to provide details to the posters on this thread unless you think they will be helpful to your husband and your marriage. Give him someone he can ultimately find respect for and regain trust in. 

I also have another thought about trust. He didn't trust you because of anything you did or said. His trust in you was generated from within himself, you were only able to destroy it. So with that said, be prepared to have him not believe even the simple things you say or feel.

Finally you are ready to take bets about your determination to reconcile. It's going to be not only a hard process, made harder because your husband will have his say about it, but a long process requiring not only your strength but stamina.

The hardest part in my opinion will not be him looking at you wondering what or who you're thinking about but you looking at him looking at you and you knowing what he is thinking.

'Nuff said, Good luck to you and your husband,

Seasalt


----------



## cool12

Carrie420 said:


> But my dumb reasons for the affair, and my non-satisfaction from it, may work for us more than some think.


i'm curious as to why the affair was unsatisfying? why did it even go beyond a ONS? but most of all, why would you bring another man into your home to have sex with if it was all so unsatisfying?


these questions make me wonder where your rship with you H would be now if the affair was satisfying.


----------



## sandc

warlock07 said:


> I am no saint either but this question seems a bit too personal for someone who started posting on TAM yesterday...Quoting the particular text either
> 
> And calling her evasive for not posting explicit details of her affair is not a good direction for the community to take either..
> 
> Not trying to offend you though..


No offense taken. I am trying to be a bit provocative. But not out of spite.


----------



## bandit.45

Carrie420 said:


> Off to MC. I'll let Jack do the posting, if any, when we get back. I'm afraid my presence here is upsetting some of you that have been through what Jack is going through. I don't mind being an emotional punching bag, but none of you deserve to hurt any more because of me. I've caused enough hurt for the whole world.


Understand it isn't so much about the hurt some posters here feel... 

Unlike Marriage Builders and Surviving Infidelity, where the BS/WS ratio is about 50/50, you have opted to come onto a site where the BS/WS ratio is about 95 to 5. 

You will be treated with a certain amount of distrust and cynicism until you can show through your words and responses that we can trust you are not putting one over on us. Alot of the rough questioning is a litmus test in and of itself to see if you really are determined to take the shots, stick it out, and do this for your husband. 

There is a well known former-WW on board named E1, who was very angry and defensive when she first came on board...very much in the fog and minimizing her affair. She took a beatdown the likes of which I have rarely seen... Seriously, it was like the Stoning of Steven. But she stuck it out, came out of her fog, worked on her issues and now she owns her sh!t 100%. She has become a very valuable and respected member of this forum and is a great source of information and opinion. That _Reconciliation_ thread I posted for you was started by her BS.


----------



## bandit.45

sandc said:


> No offense taken. I am trying to be a bit provocative. But not out of spite.


You're just a hardazz sandc... admit it.


----------



## CouldItBeSo

Carrie420 said:


> Jack used the word "relentlessly". And I'm sure it seemed so to him. The other guy did hit on me here and there over the past 2 years.
> 
> Please, let me answer your question honestly without being interpreted as obnoxious. If Jack and I had a conversation about every guy who's hit on me or every girl who's hit on him, that would be too much of that kind of talk. For both of us.
> 
> Does everybody here come home every day and tell their spouse about someone who overly flirted with them that day? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just wondering.


Well, I probably would not mention if a stranger I had never seen before overtly flirted with me once.

But a co-worker with whom you work with every day and know very well, obviously were attracted to, pursuing and hitting on you for two years?

I'm sure you see the difference now?


----------



## sandc

bandit.45 said:


> You're just a hardazz sandc... admit it.


Who me? :scratchhead:

Yeah, I am poking with a pointy stick though. But just a little.



I just don't like evasion. She answered your question about it being the first time. Trying to get her to open up, not talk about positions or anything. She doesn't need her marriage councilor's permission to talk. I'm a little distrustful of the MC. Unorthodox methods? I trust in the unorthodox methods of TAM. Jury's out on the MC.


----------



## sandc

bandit.45 said:


> There is a well known former-WW on board named E1, who was very angry and defensive when she first came on board...very much in the fog and minimizing her affair. She took a beatdown the likes of which I have rarely seen... Seriously, it was like the Stoning of Steven. But she stuck it out, came out of her fog, worked on her issues and now she owns her sh!t 100%. She has become a very valuable and respected member of this forum and is a great source of information and opinion. That _Reconciliation_ thread I posted for you was started by her BS.


She gave as good as she got! Like a force of nature she was. She's a completely different person now. I have the utmost of respect for her.


----------



## WalterWhite420

BD and Everyone,

I wouldn’t doubt Carrie’s recollection just yet.

During that time after DDay, I was smoking pot 4-5 times per day. I was drinking a bottle of wine every night. I was sleep-deprived. And always angry as hell.

The pot dulled my memory and perception. When we talked, I shot questions at her fast, and many times wouldn’t let her answer fully before I jumped to a conclusion or hurled an accusation. Then I would get so mad and just walk away. The next morning I couldn’t remember half of what we even talked about, and the parts I did remember had to have been skewed to some point. I was in no mental condition to be talking about those things. So I withdrew. Honestly, I probably should have been admitted to a psych ward. Those talks did more harm than good.

The recollection I took away from those talks while I was constantly on a psychedelic drug was that the affair itself had lasted for a year. She has maintained ever since that she told me they had lunch or after-work drinks about 6 times that past year, but always with other co-workers. And that the affair itself was short. I do remember her telling me about lunch and drinks with him and other co-workers. And I did immediately suspect the affair must have been going on during that time. So that’s what I believed.

So when we decided about 10 days ago to give it another try, we both knew we needed a moderator to help us argue fairly while in discussions. At least at the beginning. Else it would eventually degenerate to the kind of counter-productive talks we had months ago.

I’ll find out the complete truth this week, via polygraph. She gets too nervous when confronted so I know she can’t beat a polygraph.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

BetrayedDad said:


> Sorry to be so blunt (and pardon the pun) but cheaters are a dime a dozen...


I agree. Sorry Walter, but a women of such value that she "comes along only once in every million lifetimes or so" does NOT F*CK OTHER MEN while she is married to you!


----------



## WyshIknew

bandit.45 said:


> Understand it isn't so much about the hurt some posters here feel...
> 
> Unlike Marriage Builders and Surviving Infidelity, where the BS/WS ratio is about 50/50, you have opted to come onto a site where the BS/WS ratio is about 95 to 5.
> 
> You will be treated with a certain amount of distrust and cynicism until you can show through your words and responses that we can trust you are not putting one over on us. Alot of the rough questioning is a litmus test in and of itself to see if you really are determined to take the shots, stick it out, and do this for your husband.
> 
> There is a well known former-WW on board named E1, who was very angry and defensive when she first came on board...very much in the fog and minimizing her affair. She took a beatdown the likes of which I have rarely seen... Seriously, it was like the Stoning of Steven. But she stuck it out, came out of her fog, worked on her issues and now she owns her sh!t 100%. She has become a very valuable and respected member of this forum and is a great source of information and opinion. That _Reconciliation_ thread I posted for you was started by her BS.


Also do not forget Mrs Mathias who initially came to TAM dragging her hubby Mr Mathias along in an attempt to pull the wool over her hubby and TAM's eyes.

That blew up in her face big time.

Yet another reason why people are suspicious of WS here.

Malcolm something or others wife was another, Awake1 yet another.


----------



## WalterWhite420

nuclearnightmare said:


> I agree. Sorry Walter, but a women of such value that she "comes along only once in every million lifetimes or so" does NOT F*CK OTHER MEN while she is married to you!


Do you not think any cheater ever deserves another chance?

I'm not arguing with you, I'm just asking an honest question.


----------



## The Middleman

WalterWhite420 said:


> Do you not think any cheater ever deserves another chance?
> 
> I'm not arguing with you, I'm just asking an honest question.


You didn't ask me this question, but I'd like to answer it: I could never forgive my spouse after a physical betrayal ... period. Following that, I would never consider a reconciliation. My sense of self respect and self esteem won't allow me to to do that. If I'm giving advice to a BS, That advice would be not to reconcile. But that's just me.


----------



## MattMatt

WalterWhite420 said:


> Do you not think any cheater ever deserves another chance?
> 
> I'm not arguing with you, I'm just asking an honest question.


Almost every cheater deserves a second chance. *Of course, it's entirely up to them what they do with it.*


----------



## kenmoore14217

Do you not think any cheater ever deserves another chance?

I'm not arguing with you, I'm just asking an honest question

I for one do not. There, I said it. And I'm stickin to it


----------



## WalterWhite420

The Middleman said:


> You didn't ask me this question, but I'd like to answer it: I could never forgive my spouse after a physical betrayal ... period. Following that, I would never consider a reconciliation. My sense of self respect and self esteem won't allow me to to do that. If I'm giving advice to a BS, That advice would be not to reconcile. But that's just me.


Man, I've certainly held your views in the past. I can understand why you feel the way you do.

I tried to get her out of my heart and head. For months. And I couldn't do it. Months of trying to hate or dislike her. Or at least feel indifferent. It worked for a while, and I had myself convinced. But my suppressed love for her surfaced with a vengeance about 2 weeks ago.

The truth is I love her more than I love myself, or anyone else, past present or future. And while it may not work out in the end, I've got to give her another chance.

If it fails, I'll be devastated, but at least I'll know for sure.


----------



## bfree

No cheater DESERVES a second chance. Second chances are only granted by the one who was betrayed. Understand, once the vows are broken there is no more marriage. If you both choose to build an entirely new marriage together that is a choice you both have to make individually. Understand that you are both new people as a result of this betrayal. New individuals = new couple = new marriage. You both have a common source of reference. But that is the past and does not belong in the present or the future.


----------



## tainted

MattMatt said:


> Almost every cheater deserves a second chance. *Of course, it's entirely up to them what they do with it.*


Cheaters don't deserve a 2nd chance,* they have to earn it*. 
I don't think there is a WS in the world that said they deserve a 2nd chance and got it. They worked hard on rebuilding their marriage and thats why they got a 2nd chance.


----------



## WalterWhite420

tainted said:


> Cheaters don't deserve a 2nd chance,* they have to earn it*.
> I don't think there is a WS in the world that said they deserve a 2nd chance and got it. They worked hard on rebuilding their marriage and thats why they got a 2nd chance.


That's what Carrie has done, IMHO.


----------



## VFW

Walter,

I don't think there is a right answer to the question. Some individuals are eager to reconcile, while others are one and done. I think that marriages can be saved from infidelity....IF.....both individuals are committed to making it work. I don't tell folks to divorce or reconcile, there is way to much involved in a relationship than you can get in a few paragraphs. So no matter what any of us recommend, the bottom line is what do you want to do.


----------



## 2asdf2

Carrie420 said:


> I will answer all these questions and any others asked in therapy with Jack, at home with Jack, under a polygraph, and on this web site. In due time. I'm not going to be evasive.


Now she has performed the ultimate evasive move. :scratchhead:


----------



## 2asdf2

WalterWhite420 said:


> -----------------snip--------------
> 
> I’ll find out the complete truth this week, via polygraph. She gets too nervous when confronted so *I know she can’t beat a polygraph.*


Obviously, you have not researched the polygraph.


----------



## WalterWhite420

2asdf2 said:


> Obviously, you have not researched the polygraph.


Obviously. But if it can be beat as easily as I feel you're implying, then what good is it?


----------



## krismimo

poly's are not that credible it just depends on you and how much weight you want to put into the test. I's just not about the test, or how she behaves, it really is about if you have it in you to live with her, the aftermath of it all. And right now it is too soon to tell.


----------



## WalterWhite420

We had our first tough day of therapy today. We spent an hour in MC. When we got there, the MC got right to it.

She brought us in her office, closed the door, sat us down in chairs opposite one another, and looked at Carrie in silence for 2-3 seconds. Then she said "Carrie, why? Look Jack in the eye and tell him the complete, hard truth. And don't hold anything back. Tell him why you had the affair. He deserves to know everything".

We both began crying streaming tears. It was at least 2 minutes before Carrie could say a word. When she did, she said it was all her fault. She said she was acting like an immature spoiled princess who thought she deserved to be worshipped. I was working some overtime and around less. Paying her fewer compliments. Giving her fewer touches. My desire for sex (especially Tantric sex) had dwindled a bit. While I love Tantric sex, it’s a bit of work and a long, drawn out sex session. I had grown weary of it so often. But she was ready as ever, and was feeling unfulfilled sexually. She’s quite over-sexed, and she’s always tested at the top of the hormone range for her age. She felt unattractive to me (can you believe that? she’s a goddess). This other guy was complimenting her. She got drunk with him one day (that day at our house) and let her guard down. But only once. So she claims. 

We agreed with the MC to NOT go into details of how, where, when until we had somewhat hashed out the why.

I questioned her and challenged her story, but she stuck to it knowing full well I will ask the same questions in our polygraph this week.

This is just a summary of what was said, but is she giving a reasonable explanation? The MC asked her several times if she was sure she was being completely honest, and honestly complete, knowing that a polygraph was coming up later in the week. Carrie always emphatically said “yes”.

Your thoughts?


----------



## 3putt

WalterWhite420 said:


> Obviously. But if it can be beat as easily as I feel you're implying, then what good is it?


WW, that's an old and ongoing argument around here. That dead horse been beaten for far too long.

My take is that if it's good enough for the CIA, FBI, and the US Military (not to mention other foreign intelligence agencies), then it's good enough for me. Until we have something better to rely on for at least some peace of mind, what other choice do we have?

Besides, I place as much value on the willingness of the WS to take a poly as I do the actual results anyway. Much like the NC letter.


----------



## The Middleman

WalterWhite420 said:


> Man, I've certainly held your views in the past. I can understand why you feel the way you do.


Here is the reason why I feel the way I do, and I'll start by saying I'm only speaking for myself. You can (and will) do what you can live with, I'm sure.

I view the affair like this: The woman I love and who swore to be "true to me" for the rest of her life, behind my back, committed herself both emotionally and physically to another man, for what ever stupid reason. This is a humiliation! I view this humiliation as an intentional one because during the affair she knows full well that I would be devastated if I learned about her betrayal .... but she lets the OM climb on top of her anyway. Maybe this is misogynist of me to say, but once she let's the OM inside and allows him to spew his filth in her and then she comes home and brings his jizz to me ...she's not mine any more. That's almost the ultimate humiliation a man can face my friend. I wouldn't be able to look at her again, much less consider ever sleeping with her again. As far as I'm concerned, she is ruined for me, no matter how much love I had for her. I don't think I could look at my self in the mirror again if I considered forgivness, let alone live as husband and wife again.

To the BW's out there: I saying this from a guy's point of view because I'm a guy. But I think you all understand what I am saying and view your WH's atrocities similarly. My advice to BW's has always been the same as what I advise BH's.


----------



## krismimo

I know you love your wife but what is trouble some is how you remain to put her on this pedestal even after what she has done to you. You keep talking about how beautiful and smart she is you sound brain washed you sound like your still in a fog and I know it is because of the "hysterical bonding" that you two have done with each other. It is good your wife is here BUT she is still not really seeing what her affair has done and what it will continue to do for the remainder of your marriage.


----------



## WalterWhite420

krismimo said:


> I know you love your wife but what is trouble some is how you remain to put her on this pedestal even after what she has done to you. You keep talking about how beautiful and smart she is you sound brain washed you sound like your still in a fog and I know it is because of the "hysterical bonding" that you two have done with each other. It is good your wife is here BUT she is still not really seeing what her affair has done and what it will continue to do for the remainder of your marriage.


I may very well be brainwashed. 

But what if I just happen to love her wholeheartedly to my core being with everything I've got, whether I wanted to or not? Isn't this the way every spouse should love the other?


----------



## krismimo

The honest truth is you will never trust your wife again. Just that simple. The thing that sucks about doubt is it will come and go and a lot of times it comes out the blue, one day you might want to check her phone, just to "trust but verify" that is not trust. Your marriage will never be the same. Not only will it take years to heal but the after math of it all will never go away. If you can deal with that (which is way to soon to tell) than you can have a "marriage".

I honestly don't believe in R at least not in most cases, it could happen but the chances are small and it is pure hell. You two barely scratched the surface what your going through is the norm with couples trying to R. Good Luck.


----------



## Acabado

so... was it a ONS?


----------



## krismimo

Walter there is nothing wrong with loving your wife. I loved my ex with all my heart I would have died for him, but as much as I loved him he wasn't right for me but also I couldn't live with a serial cheater. He was in a relationship with another woman for four years, the OW had no clue about me. So trust me when I tell you I know what your going through. 

However you can't let that blind your judgement either. The question really is how does SHE feel about you not just you. Because what your wife did for a year is not love. It is not love at all. People can redeem themselves they can it's not impossible, it's just so very damn hard. It is exactly what Bandit said. She has to fix something within herself to see where her short comings are and to rebuild and gain your trust. not side step it or cover it up but hitting it in the face and build from there. It takes time, it takes a lot of hurt and pain and forgiveness for what she has done (which is something you have to do anyway weather you stay with her or not.)


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: My Living Hell*



WalterWhite420 said:


> That's what Carrie has done, IMHO.


Then you may want to give her a second chance. Not because she deserves it but because you choose it.


----------



## 2asdf2

WalterWhite420 said:


> Obviously. But if it can be beat as easily as I feel you're implying, then what good is it?


It's not about beating it. It is about reliability.

It is junk science.

It has value -for purposes such as yours- only when the subject is unaware of its lack of reliability, like you seem to be.


----------



## WalterWhite420

Acabado said:


> so... was it a ONS?


Yes, she claims.


----------



## raven3321

Walter,

I think your MC is off to a good start. Are you satisfied with Carrie's answer of why she did it? I'm not in your shoes but it didn't seem to me like she really knew why. I get that she felt as much attention from you as she had; but even that is more than most wives get ever. I get that the guy had been hitting on her. So what. Most of our wives, unbeknownst to us get hit on every day. 

I guess what I didn't see or get was what pushed her beyond the boundary; or better yet, exactly what was the temptation? Why this guy? What did she see in him? What was her thought process that allowed her to engage him? Was it a sudden attraction or was it there all along?

I'm sure in the coming MC sessions, some of these will come out but you asked for thoughts. My 2 cents. However it goes, just know I've been praying for you two. You'll be fine.


----------



## raven3321

WalterWhite420 said:


> Yes, she claims.


I posted a minute ago before I saw this. Let me get this straight:

She's saying that was their first time that you walked in on?


----------



## krismimo

I forgot to say this and as cliche as it might seem it is true. You have to love yourself more than you love your wife. Now really think about that. You have to know your self worth and you have to dig deep within yourself and not be afraid to lose your marriage in order to possibly save it.


----------



## WalterWhite420

raven3321 said:


> Walter,
> 
> I think your MC is off to a good start. Are you satisfied with Carrie's answer of why she did it? I'm not in your shoes but it didn't seem to me like she really knew why. I get that she felt as much attention from you as she had; but even that is more than most wives get ever. I get that the guy had been hitting on her. So what. Most of our wives, unbeknownst to us get hit on every day.
> 
> I guess what I didn't see or get was what pushed her beyond the boundary; or better yet, exactly what was the temptation? Why this guy? What did she see in him? What was her thought process that allowed her to engage him? Was it a sudden attraction or was it there all along?
> 
> I'm sure in the coming MC sessions, some of these will come out but you asked for thoughts. My 2 cents. However it goes, just know I've been praying for you two. You'll be fine.


Thank you.

I asked her some of the questions you mentioned, but I'll be sure to ask her the rest as well.

Her answer to every specific question I asked today was I think honest.

She was not attracted to him. But his complimenting and persistance got him into the house that day and she got drunk and made a horrible mistake. Or so she claims.


----------



## WalterWhite420

raven3321 said:


> I posted a minute ago before I saw this. Let me get this straight:
> 
> She's saying that was their first time that you walked in on?


That's what she claims, under penalty of perjury.

It became emotional a week earlier, but turned physical only on DDay.


----------



## 3putt

2asdf2 said:


> It's not about beating it. It is about reliability.
> 
> *It is junk science.*
> 
> It has value -for purposes such as yours- only when the subject is unaware of its lack of reliability, like you seem to be.


Then explain what I mentioned above about the CIA, FBI, and the military still using it. I notice that 2 of your citations are wiki and answers.com. That alone negates, in my mind, the third citation, which I could easily argue as liberal funded junk science and research as well.

If that's your best salvo to make a point against a poly then I would suggest a better armory in the future.


----------



## krismimo

They use polys as a tool that is it. Just a tool which is why you can't really use them in court. Polys are sketchy at best. The same poly test can be beaten, for example there have been a number of serial killers that passed the poly a few times and police thought you were not the suspect simply because they passed the poly. They were mistaken, sadly mistaken. Poly's should only be taken as a grain of salt. It all depends on how you look at it and how much value you want to put into the test itself.


----------



## dogman

WalterWhite420 said:


> We had our first tough day of therapy today. We spent an hour in MC. When we got there, the MC got right to it.
> 
> She brought us in her office, closed the door, sat us down in chairs opposite one another, and looked at Carrie in silence for 2-3 seconds. Then she said "Carrie, why? Look Jack in the eye and tell him the complete, hard truth. And don't hold anything back. Tell him why you had the affair. He deserves to know everything".
> 
> We both began crying streaming tears. It was at least 2 minutes before Carrie could say a word. When she did, she said it was all her fault. She said she was acting like an immature spoiled princess who thought she deserved to be worshipped. I was working some overtime and around less. Paying her fewer compliments. Giving her fewer touches. My desire for sex (especially Tantric sex) had dwindled a bit. While I love Tantric sex, it’s a bit of work and a long, drawn out sex session. I had grown weary of it so often. But she was ready as ever, and was feeling unfulfilled sexually. She’s quite over-sexed, and she’s always tested at the top of the hormone range for her age. She felt unattractive to me (can you believe that? she’s a goddess). This other guy was complimenting her. She got drunk with him one day (that day at our house) and let her guard down. But only once. So she claims.
> 
> We agreed with the MC to NOT go into details of how, where, when until we had somewhat hashed out the why.
> 
> I questioned her and challenged her story, but she stuck to it knowing full well I will ask the same questions in our polygraph this week.
> 
> This is just a summary of what was said, but is she giving a reasonable explanation? The MC asked her several times if she was sure she was being completely honest, and honestly complete, knowing that a polygraph was coming up later in the week. Carrie always emphatically said “yes”.
> 
> Your thoughts?


I would not believe the one time thing at all without some kind of proof. The polygraph would help but I'd always wonder if she was honest anyway. It just seems too handy to say the one and only time was when you walked in. 
Not sure if that matters though. Let's say it was several times because if you didn't walk in it would have been many more and then if she wasn't caught she would have moved on to other men.

It's good you caught her semi early. Too bad you didn't walk in a half hour sooner.


----------



## 3putt

krismimo said:


> They use polys as a tool that is it. Just a tool which is why you can't really use them in court. Polys are sketchy at best. The same poly test can be beaten, for example there have been a number of serial killers that passed the poly a few times and police thought you were not the suspect simply because they passed the poly. They were mistaken, sadly mistaken. Poly's should only be taken as a grain of salt. It all depends on how you look at it and how much value you want to put into the test itself.


Just because they are not admissible in court does not negate their effectiveness. Have you taken a really good long, hard look at our judicious system lately? It's FUBAR.

You're comparing severely demented people's ability to deceive and deflect over the common WS's ability to do the same. That's what these folks have done all their lives. That's a comparison I wouldn't even begin to make. In fact, it's an insult. 

Yeah, we have had some monstrous WS stories around here, but not of that caliber.


----------



## WalterWhite420

dogman said:


> I would not believe the one time thing at all without some kind of proof. The polygraph would help but I'd always wonder if she was honest anyway. It just seems too handy to say the one and only time was when you walked in.
> Not sure if that matters though. Let's say it was several times because if you didn't walk in it would have been many more and then if she wasn't caught she would have moved on to other men.
> 
> It's good you caught her semi early. Too bad you didn't walk in a half hour sooner.


Don't you think I've pondered that a billion times? A half-hour sooner? I was feeling queezy at work since 10:00AM. I started to come home then, but a vice president requested a walk-through of my lab, and I stayed to comply...oh what if...


----------



## krismimo

3putt said:


> Just because they are not admissible in court does not negate their effectiveness. Have you taken a really good long, hard look at our judicious system lately? It's FUBAR.
> 
> You're comparing severely demented people's ability to deceive and deflect over the common WS's ability to do the same. That's what these folks have done all their lives. That's a comparison I wouldn't even begin to make. In fact, it's an insult.
> 
> Yeah, we have had some monstrous WS stories around here, but not of that caliber.


Yes I have. And it just made my point. I'm not saying the poly is a complete waste of time but it is not perfect either.


----------



## krismimo

WalterWhite420 said:


> Don't you think I've pondered that a billion times? A half-hour sooner? I was feeling queezy at work since 10:00AM. I started to come home then, but a vice president requested a walk-through of my lab, and I stayed to comply...oh what if...


Walter I know you have been through a lot but were you able to check emails? or phone records that could help you figure out if she is telling you the truth? (I'm only asking if you wanted to know if it was just the one time.)


----------



## 3putt

krismimo said:


> Yes I have. And it just made my point. I'm not saying the poly is a complete waste of time but it is not perfect either.


Just how did it make your point? The way I look at it you made mine for me.

As far as the poly being perfect, I'll agree with that. But hell, what is? We've got what we got, and that's it. But to continuously argue against the accuracy and the effectiveness of the poly when our own most advanced services still employ them is counterproductive to the needs of the BSs on this board.

We're not dealing with trying to get the truth out of Dahmer, Gacy, or Bundy here. We deal with foggy minded waywards, and that's all.


----------



## WalterWhite420

krismimo said:


> Walter I know you have been through a lot but were you able to check emails? or phone records that could help you figure out if she is telling you the truth? (I'm only asking if you wanted to know if it was just the one time.)


I did check her PC for suspicious emails, but turned up none...her cell phone records and bills were paperless (sent to her email), so I couldn't track them.


----------



## sandc

Did it look like their first time? You were there. From your description I'm doubtful.


----------



## Carrie420

sandc said:


> Did it look like their first time? You were there. From your description I'm doubtful.


It was our first time. I was emotionally involved for a week, but it turned physical only once. And I believe in polys, so that makes them work on me, as someone suggested earlier.


----------



## krismimo

3putt said:


> Just how did it make your point? The way I look at it you made mine for me.
> 
> As far as the poly being perfect, I'll agree with that. But hell, what is? We've got what we got, and that's it. But to continuously argue against the accuracy and the effectiveness of the poly when our own most advanced services still employ them is counterproductive to the needs of the BSs on this board.
> 
> We're not dealing with trying to get the truth out of Dahmer, Gacy, or Bundy here. We deal with foggy minded waywards, and that's all.


It was just an example....


----------



## krismimo

So basically Walter you don't know for sure. This is really a tough one.
On one hand if you weren't there the affair could have continued. On the other you caught it in it's tracks in a "early" stages.


----------



## Carrie420

krismimo said:


> So basically Walter you don't know for sure. This is really a tough one.
> On one hand if you weren't there the affair could have continued. On the other you caught it in it's tracks in a "early" stages.


It would most certainly NOT have continued!!! I knew it was a horrible mistake from the start. I just didn't know how to stop it after I quit slapping him away. He wouldn't take no for an answer.


----------



## raven3321

Carrie420 said:


> It was our first time. I was emotionally involved for a week, but it turned physical only once. And I believe in polys, so that makes them work on me, as someone suggested earlier.


Hi Carrie. Could you explain "emotionally involved"? What does that mean? You had feelings for him for a week? What changed that particular week if anything, that did it for you? Just asking cause I think it would help a lot of people with where they are emotionally with someone and don't realize it until it's too late. Thanks in advance.


----------



## Carrie420

raven3321 said:


> Hi Carrie. Could you explain "emotionally involved"? What does that mean? You had feelings for him for a week? What changed that particular week if anything, that did it for you? Just asking cause I think it would help a lot of people with where they are emotionally with someone and don't realize it until it's too late. Thanks in advance.


I was inflated by his compliments...that's about it...I became sort of dependent upon them since Jack didn't seem interested as much.


----------



## cool12

Carrie420 said:


> It was our first time. I was emotionally involved for a week, but it turned physical only once. And I believe in polys, so that makes them work on me, as someone suggested earlier.


your first time and you chose your home?
wow.


----------



## Carrie420

cool12 said:


> your first time and you chose your home?
> wow.


I didn't "choose" our home. This guy calls me at 11:00AM that day, knowing I'm home, and asks if he could drop off some books for me to return to the work library (he had just left my company)...I said yes. He brought a bottle of wine, and when we finished that one we opened and finished another. And I made the mistake of the century.


----------



## krismimo

Carrie420 said:


> I didn't "choose" our home. This guy calls me at 11:00AM that day, knowing I'm home, and asks if he could drop off some books for me to return to the work library (he had just left my company)...I said yes. He brought a bottle of wine, and when we finished that one we opened and finished another. And I made the mistake of the century.


Very true. But you also made the mistake of letting him in your home with a bottle of wine. You had a choice he didn't force it. You invited him in which makes it just as bad. You were already attracted to him at least how he was treating you, and you felt like you wanted to sleep with him. You mentioned that you were slapping him off you, but walter said that he saw your legs wrapped around him. If your defending yourself you wouldn't have your legs wrapped around him. I don't understand did he hurt you? Or did you change your mind and you were trying to get him off you?


----------



## Carrie420

krismimo said:


> Very true. But you also made the mistake of letting him in your home with a bottle of wine. You had a choice he didn't force it. You invited him in which makes it just as bad. You were already attracted to him at least how he was treating you, and you felt like you wanted to sleep with him. You mentioned that you were slapping him off you, but walter said that he saw your legs wrapped around him. If your defending yourself you wouldn't have your legs wrapped around him. I don't understand did he hurt you? Or did you change your mind and you were trying to get him off you?


You're right. Don't you think I know that now? That I've cried and sobbed over it a billion times? That I know what a great man I ****ed over? That I was a stupid selfish princess wannabe?

Hell yes. I know all of that now.


----------



## krismimo

Not trying to make you feel bad Carrie but this is the situation you put your husband in. I'm sorry I really am but You did this to the two of you not me. I'm just trying to understand and please if you could answer my questions. You don't have to answer them and you well within your right but in order to help some of the details would help, there are more id bits that keep popping up here and there and it is confusing.


----------



## Carrie420

krismimo said:


> Not trying to make you feel bad Carrie but this is the situation you put your husband in. I'm sorry I really am but You did this to the two of you not me. I'm just trying to understand and please if you could answer my questions.


I will answer those questions later. Those pertain to the "hows", which our MC wants us to postpone until we have thoroughly hashed through the "whys".


----------



## krismimo

All I was trying to ask is if you were trying to get him off you. It is one specific question.


----------



## Carrie420

krismimo said:


> All I was trying to ask if he was trying to hurt you. Because you said that you were trying to slap him. It is one specific question.


The OM was not abusive...and it was not rape...he made advances with his hands and I slapped them away...repeated...repeated...until I was drunk and relented and made a terrible mistake...


----------



## cool12

Carrie420 said:


> I didn't "choose" our home. This guy calls me at 11:00AM that day, knowing I'm home, and asks if he could drop off some books for me to return to the work library (he had just left my company)...I said yes. He brought a bottle of wine, and when we finished that one we opened and finished another. And I made the mistake of the century.


you chose to have sex with him in your home. 
you chose to start drinking with a man at noon in your house and then you chose to have sex with him there.
at least that's how i see it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## krismimo

Ok. Thank you for answering I was just trying to make sure I read that right.


----------



## Carrie420

cool12 said:


> you chose to have sex with him in your home.
> you chose to start drinking with a man at noon in your house and then you chose to have sex with him there.
> at least that's how i see it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, I did...that's the ultimate truth...and I'm not running from it. My husband and I are dealing with that right now. And we will make it work. I know we will.


----------



## cool12

i sincerely wish you the best.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SoulStorm

Carrie, It was not a mistake It was a choice. A bad choice. You chose to give in Because deep down, you wanted to do what you did 

The sooner you accept that, the sooner you can start healing. You know what you did was horrendous, but it wasn't a mistake, it is what you chose to do. I say this respectfully


----------



## Carrie420

SoulStorm said:


> Carrie, It was not a mistake It was a choice. A bad choice. You chose to give in Because deep down, you wanted to do what you did
> 
> The sooner you accept that, the sooner you can start healing. You know what you did was horrendous, but it wasn't a mistake, it is what you chose to do. I say this respectfully


You sound like my IC...I hate you.


----------



## SoulStorm

Carrie420 said:


> You sound like my IC...I hate you.


Good :smthumbup:


----------



## Carrie420

SoulStorm said:


> Good :smthumbup:


Cool SS, cool.


----------



## Graywolf2

Carrie420 said:


> He brought a bottle of wine, and when we finished that one we opened and finished another. I just didn't know how to stop it after I quit slapping him away. He wouldn't take no for an answer.


My son is an Army JAG (Army lawyer) and handles sex assault cases. The military is so sensitive now a days about sexual assault that if a guy in the military did what he OM did, he would be kicked out and might do some jail time.


****EDIT****

Wait a second. OM got kicked out and lost his job even though he’s a civilian.


----------



## raven3321

The fact that this was a ONS puts this in a whole different light. We thought it was a year long affair. I know for Walter (or anyone else for that matter) it doesn't make much difference. However, this wasn't a long, drawn out affair, where you were deceiving him, sneaking around, bashing your husband to the OM, or dreaming of running off together into the sunset. Had it gone on, maybe all those things may have happened. Many a woman has known it was a mistake the first time and yet gone back again. However, I think even if you weren't caught, you probably would have confessed shortly thereafter.

You know, this may sound silly. However, I was thinking of your situation today. You two have a love affair (affair might be a bad word but it fits here) for the ages. I envy you....even with the transgression. Some of us are in horrible marriages. I wondered if knew before hand my wife was going to cheat once, but the rest of the time she would be the soul mate of my dreams, would I still marry her. I couldn't say I wouldn't....and this is coming from someone who was horribly betrayed before. My first wife had a year long tryst while we were engaged and another one after we married for as long. I think a good woman is worth the effort and the pain.

Maybe not now, but I would love to hear about how Mr. White saved your life back in college. He's slowly becoming my hero.


----------



## Carrie420

raven3321 said:


> The fact that this was a ONS puts this in a whole different light. We thought it was a year long affair. I know for Walter (or anyone else for that matter) it doesn't make much difference. However, this wasn't a long, drawn out affair, where you were deceiving him, sneaking around, bashing your husband to the OM, or dreaming of running off together into the sunset. Had it gone on, maybe all those things may have happened. Many a woman has known it was a mistake the first time and yet gone back again. However, I think even if you weren't caught, you probably would have confessed shortly thereafter.
> 
> You know, this may sound silly. However, I was thinking of your situation today. You two have a love affair (affair might be a bad word but it fits here) for the ages. I envy you....even with the transgression. Some of us are in horrible marriages. I wondered if knew before hand my wife was going to cheat once, but the rest of the time she would be the soul mate of my dreams, would I still marry her. I couldn't say I wouldn't....and this is coming from someone who was horribly betrayed before. My first wife had a year long tryst while we were engaged and another one after we married for as long. I think a good woman is worth the effort and the pain.
> 
> Maybe not now, but I would love to hear about how Mr. White saved your life back in college. He's slowly becoming my hero.


I will definitely tell that story sometime soon here...honestly and simply...Jack gave his life for mine...he acted in the only way possible to save my life when in fact it surely seemed to ensure his own death...he just knew he was going to die if he saved me...but he chose to save me anyway...

What did I do to deserve this man?


----------



## Carrie420

raven3321 said:


> The fact that this was a ONS puts this in a whole different light. We thought it was a year long affair. I know for Walter (or anyone else for that matter) it doesn't make much difference. However, this wasn't a long, drawn out affair, where you were deceiving him, sneaking around, bashing your husband to the OM, or dreaming of running off together into the sunset. Had it gone on, maybe all those things may have happened. Many a woman has known it was a mistake the first time and yet gone back again. However, I think even if you weren't caught, you probably would have confessed shortly thereafter.
> 
> You know, this may sound silly. However, I was thinking of your situation today. You two have a love affair (affair might be a bad word but it fits here) for the ages. I envy you....even with the transgression. Some of us are in horrible marriages. I wondered if knew before hand my wife was going to cheat once, but the rest of the time she would be the soul mate of my dreams, would I still marry her. I couldn't say I wouldn't....and this is coming from someone who was horribly betrayed before. My first wife had a year long tryst while we were engaged and another one after we married for as long. I think a good woman is worth the effort and the pain.
> 
> Maybe not now, but I would love to hear about how Mr. White saved your life back in college. He's slowly becoming my hero.


It was an EA about a week before it became a PA, which I immediately knew was ****ed up wrong...but that once was enough, I know.

But I can say with 100% confidence that that would have been the only time. 100% confidence, FWIW.


----------



## adriana

Carrie420 said:


> I didn't "choose" our home. This guy calls me at 11:00AM that day, knowing I'm home, and asks if he could drop off some books for me to return to the work library (he had just left my company)...I said yes. He brought a bottle of wine, and when we finished that one we opened and finished another. And I made the mistake of the century.



Carrie420, I don't know if you are trying to delude yourself, your husband, or other posters, but I am a female, and I know exactly what you were thinking when you were inviting the OM to your house that day. You cannot tell me, or anyone else, that you didn't think about having sex with him. And drinking wine with him didn't lead you having sex, you started drinking with him so it would lead to sex. Right now, you are simply trying to downplay what you did by making it far more innocent than it really was.

As for working it out with your husband, you an attractive, smart woman who apparently knows well how to play this game so the odds are highly in your favor. :smthumbup:

Good luck to both of you.


----------



## Carrie420

adriana said:


> Carrie420, I don't know if you are trying to delude yourself, your husband, or other posters, but I am a female, and I know exactly what you were thinking when you were inviting the OM to your house that day. You cannot tell me, or anyone else, that you didn't think about having sex with him. And drinking wine with him didn't lead you having sex, you started drinking with him so it would lead to sex. Right now, you are simply trying to downplay what you did by making it far more innocent than it really was.
> 
> As for working it out with your husband, you an attractive, smart woman who apparently knows well how to play this game so the odds are highly in your favor. :smthumbup:
> 
> Good luck to both of you.


You are both presumptive and wrong. And you are obviously wishing us false success.

I was dumb, but not calculating. Was I vulnerable? Yes. Did I find the OM apalling? No. But did I desire him sexually before his advances? No. I wanted sex with Jack, but couldn't get it as much as I needed it. But the affair was all my fault. I know.

Good luck to you. And unlike you, I really mean it.


----------



## krismimo

Carrie420 said:


> You are both presumptive and wrong. And you are obviously wishing us false success.
> 
> I was dumb, but not calculating. Was I vulnerable? Yes. Did I find the OM apalling? No. But did I desire him sexually before his advances? No. I wanted sex with Jack, but couldn't get it as much as I needed it. But the affair was all my fault. I know.
> 
> Good luck to you. And unlike you, I really mean it.


Carrie you admitted to have a week EA right? So it's hard to say you were not sexually attracted to the OM when you are already engaged with this man inappropriately even if it wasn't premeditated. We are only going by what you two tell us.


----------



## sandc

Carrie, you understand not everyone here will coddle you right? I certainly won't. Nor will I throw rocks at you. But you have to understand we're going to ask tough questions. Don't get defensive. Just answer or don't. Or wait until your MC gives you permission or whatever. The WS's that receive the most help and respect from the TAM community take it all in with humility. Just my opinion.


----------



## 2asdf2

Minimizing 

It's the name of the game

Every Wayward Spouse

Plays the same


----------



## BetrayedDad

adriana said:


> Carrie420, I don't know if you are trying to delude yourself, your husband, or other posters, but I am a female, and I know exactly what you were thinking when you were inviting the OM to your house that day. You cannot tell me, or anyone else, that you didn't think about having sex with him. And drinking wine with him didn't lead you having sex, you started drinking with him so it would lead to sex. Right now, you are simply trying to downplay what you did by making it far more innocent than it really was.


Spot on... This is far more believable. I'm getting tired of cheaters acting like victims. All it proves is a true lack of remorse.


----------



## krismimo

I want to say more but I do not want to come off as a jerk, it's just something does not sit right here.


----------



## Carrie420

krismimo said:


> I want to say more but I do not want to come off as a jerk, it's just something does not sit right here.


Fish or cut bait.


----------



## krismimo

Well seeing it as your getting defensive I'm trying to be respectful


----------



## Carrie420

krismimo said:


> Well seeing it as your getting defensive I'm trying to be respectful


I can take it babe. If you've got something to say, then say it. Otherwise quit wasting my time with your meaningless posts.


----------



## krismimo

Don't call me Babe. You are here you are in trouble and your acting like this. But it is to be expected because you royally messed up and you have to live with that, I don't waste time and anyone that knows me knows that I don't mess around with people's time. It is unique only because the WS is actually here which is what I was referring to. Your husband is a mess and you two are over your head in R. It get's worse before it get's better. 

I know your situation is new and your both trying to figure out the how and the why's with your counselor. The triggers do not go away, the mistrust will always be there, it is just a matter of time for him. Not you, but Walter he has to figure out if this is what he wants to deal with and it is too soon to say.


----------



## Carrie420

Gee thanks for your well wishes babe. Our R will be fine. Hard but fine. Thanks, and goodbye.


----------



## krismimo

well wishes? YOU serious? You give well wishes for someone that is celebrating something. I for one am not going to do that. R is not impossible and your husband came here looking for advice and were telling him what he will expect. I know you are use to having your way but I'm not here for you I was here talking to Walter. I'm not going to kiss your butt were not here for that. I don't scare easily and you are not going to get the satisfaction of trying to run people off his own thread. I know deep down you are scared, scared that one day your husband might decide he can't do this anymore. But the thing is you want to control the situation I noticed the moment you came in here his voice becomes smaller and smaller. If this is how you "deal" with your problems than lord help him. Your still in denial your still minimizing and your trying to be condescending to posters that actually are trying to help you some who have reconciled.


----------



## 2asdf2

Carrie420 said:


> Off to MC. *I'll let Jack do the posting, if any, when we get back.* I'm afraid my presence here is upsetting some of you that have been through what Jack is going through. I don't mind being an emotional punching bag, but none of you deserve to hurt any more because of me. I've caused enough hurt for the whole world.





Carrie420 said:


> Gee thanks for your well wishes babe. Our R will be fine. Hard but fine. *Thanks, and goodbye.*


I thought you were done posting.


----------



## Carrie420

2asdf2 said:


> I thought you were done posting.


I guess not. Do you have a problem with that?


----------



## 2asdf2

I see Jack has a tough row to hoe.


----------



## Carrie420

krismimo said:


> well wishes? YOU serious? You give well wishes for someone that is celebrating something. I for one am not going to do that. R is not impossible and your husband came here looking for advice and were telling him what he will expect. I know you are use to having your way but I'm not here for you I was here talking to Walter. I'm not going to kiss your butt were not here for that.


Yes, I'm serious...we'll R fine, I'll bet. We need serious support and counciling. You've offered neither. Please offer one, both, or go away.


----------



## Carrie420

2asdf2 said:


> I see Jack has a tough row to hoe.


How did your post help anything? Why did you waste my time?


----------



## 2asdf2

Carrie420 said:


> How did your post help anything? Why did you waste my time?


I tried to give you insight.

I should have known I was wasting your time.


----------



## Carrie420

Good night all...


----------



## Carrie420

2asdf2 said:


> I tried to give you insight.
> 
> I should have known I was wasting your time.


You've not tried to give insight at all. You've been condescending at best, and insulting at worst.

I was warned that the whole crew would come out of the woodwork here and attack me to see if I could take it...well I can.

But if I'm hurting anyone by being here as a WS in a BS thread, then I'll refrain from posting.

Good night all.


----------



## Mzflower

Carrie420 said:


> I can take it babe. If you've got something to say, then say it. Otherwise quit wasting my time with your meaningless posts.


:scratchhead: are you kidding me?! You are in "coping with infidelity" section where most of us, our family and children have been deeply, deeply ripped apart by infidelity.


----------



## krismimo

I'm trying to save your marriage kind of gal, I'm not the ok I'm sorry that you messed up and your having a hard time taking accountability and it is clearly not your fault type of girl. You still refuse to see what you have done you keep talking about support but support comes in all shapes, sizes, and advice. You don't get to dictate his thread.


----------



## 2asdf2

Carrie420 said:


> You've not tried to give insight at all. You've been condescending at best, and insulting at worst.


If the aggressiveness you show here is what Jack has to contend with, I understand why the first R failed so soundly.


----------



## Carrie420

2asdf2 said:


> If the aggressiveness you show here is what Jack has to contend with, I understand why the first R failed so soundly.


Again, an insult. Do you have anything substantive to offer or not?

Why shouldn't I be defensive when I've been attacked to some degree?


----------



## krismimo

No one has called you names or tried to attack you, you are taking it personally, arguing and being combative is not going to help your situation. I gave advice you just don't want to listen to it and technically we were here to talk to WW.


----------



## Carrie420

Mzflower said:


> :scratchhead: are you kidding me?! You are in "coping with infidelity" section where most of us, our family and children have been deeply, deeply ripped apart by infidelity.
> 
> Take your sanctimonious hypocritical attitude and :moon:


No.


----------



## 2asdf2

Carrie420 said:


> Again, an insult. Do you have anything substantive to offer or not?
> 
> Why shouldn't I be defensive when I've been attacked to some degree?


I am not insulting you.

I said you were aggressive, not defensive.

Do you act that way when Jack is in need of your understanding?


----------



## Carrie420

krismimo said:


> No one has called you names or tried to attack you, you are taking it personally, arguing and being combative is not going to help your situation. I gave advice you just don't want to listen to it and technically we were here to talk to WW.


OK, I'll re-read your posts to see if I overreacted.

Please don't let my defensiveness deter you from helping Jack.

I was warned from several sources, even direct posts in this forum, that I would be tested in various verbal attacks to see if I could take it. Well, I can. And maybe I tried to emphasize that too much. If I did, then I apologize.


----------



## Carrie420

2asdf2 said:


> I am not insulting you.
> 
> I said you were aggressive, not defensive.
> 
> Do you act that way when Jack is in need of your understanding?


I have been super understanding with Jack for months. He has not complained once about me not being patient.


----------



## krismimo

MZ don't let her rattle you up. It is a bad distraction were suppose to help, don't stoop down to that level, you are better than that.


----------



## 2asdf2

Carrie420 said:


> I have been super understanding with Jack for months. He has not complained once about me not being patient.


I am glad to hear that.

Now, if you could stop minimizing your conduct, we'd be making real progress.


----------



## Mzflower

krismimo said:


> MZ don't let her rattle you up. It is a bad distraction were suppose to help, don't stoop down to that level, you are better than that.


Thank you, You are right.


----------



## tainted

The WS that come here and have success in R are humble. 
They take the "attacks" and see there is truth in them.


----------



## Carrie420

2asdf2 said:


> I am glad to hear that.
> 
> Now, if you could stop minimizing your conduct, we'd be making real progress.


OK, how was I minimizing my conduct? Let's make progress.


----------



## krismimo

Mzflower said:


> Thank you, You are right.


You weren't wrong for what you said, it is how you said it  
Besides were all in this together.


----------



## Carrie420

krismimo said:


> You weren't wrong for what you said, it is how you said it
> Besides were all in this together.


Yes, I really feel like you're in this with Jack and I...should I not turn my back on you? 

Please, have a sense of humor at midnight...


----------



## krismimo

I have one and I was talking about MZ.


----------



## 2asdf2

Carrie420 said:


> OK, how was I minimizing my conduct? Let's make progress.





Carrie420 said:


> You are both presumptive and wrong. And you are obviously wishing us false success.
> 
> I was dumb, but not calculating. Was I vulnerable? Yes. D*id I find the OM apalling? No. But did I desire him sexually before his advances? No. I wanted sex with Jack, but couldn't get it as much as I needed it.* But the affair was all my fault. I know.
> 
> Good luck to you. And unlike you, I really mean it.





Carrie420 said:


> I didn't "choose" our home. *This guy calls me at 11:00AM that day, knowing I'm home, and asks if he could drop off some books for me to return to the work library (he had just left my company)...I said yes. He brought a bottle of wine, and when we finished that one we opened and finished another. *And I made the mistake of the century.


Sorry, it took me a while to find your posts. 

See what I mean?


----------



## Carrie420

krismimo said:


> I have one and I was talking about MZ.


I know that.


----------



## Carrie420

2asdf2 said:


> Sorry, it took me a while to find your posts.
> 
> See what I mean?


I don't think I minimized my conduct at all. I own the affair, 100%. Me and me alone. Jack didn't cause it or contribute to it. But there were extenuating circumstances that I crumbled under. Due to my weakness, yes, but still things that anyone would normally allude to.


----------



## sandc

Krismimo and 2asdf2, you guys are rocking tonight! Way better than an MC!


----------



## sandc

Carrie420 said:


> Again, an insult. Do you have anything substantive to offer or not?
> 
> Why shouldn't I be defensive when I've been attacked to some degree?


2asdf2 isn't insulting you, he's describing what he reads from you. There is a difference. 

Carrie is really starting to remind me of EI when she first came on TAM.


----------



## WalterWhite420

Hello all,

Please be good to Carrie. She came on this forum because I asked her to. We were both warned that her toughness would be tested, and she is not one to lack in toughness. When she's hit, she hits back. And usually harder than she was hit.

I appreciate your support. I know that BS are accepted much better than WS around here, but I love Carrie to the ends of the earth and back. I've decided to give her and us another chance, and so far she has bent over backwards to cooperate and accomodate. 

I'm giving her a big chance. Please give her at least a small chance.


----------



## 2asdf2

Carrie420 said:


> I don't think I minimized my conduct at all. I own the affair, 100%. Me and me alone. Jack didn't cause it or contribute to it. But there were extenuating circumstances that I crumbled under. Due to my weakness, yes, but still things that anyone would normally allude to.


Your attempt to find an excuse in alcohol caused you to be called out about having a man in your house drinking one bottle of wine (or was it two) in your apartment at one in the afternoon. 

That post and some of the ones that followed minimized your responsibility and the importance of the betrayal.

It was only once, it was only a week's EA, etc.

I have seen too much minimization here, that turned out to be more severe than first acknowledged, not to be skeptical.

I am off to bed. At 1:20 am I am done for the night.

I'd be glad to continue the discussion tomorrow. PM me if that is your intent.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Wow - an incredible set of posts on this thread!

OK Walter (Jack) here are some thoughts:


It may have been a big mistake letting your WW on here but you have your reasons I guess - this super counsellor that you have might be right but I am not seeing anything beneficial to you yet.
I understand that you think she is a goddess but that is because you are infatuated - earlier you asked if this was the way we are all supposed to love our spouses - the answer is no - we are not supposed to be blind to abuse
From what I have heard so far, and excuse the bluntness, she was horny (oversexed as you put it), along comes a swinging d!ck with a bottle of wine and hey ho, lets go! She describes it as slapping his hands off until the dirty deed and you described it as her legs wrapped around him and him going like a Singer machine.
It seems like she is here to fend off any threats to your R - I understand that, but it may not be the healthiest thing for you
She may truly be remorseful now but she is not completely honest (even with herself) - lust is quite a normal feeling for oversexed women - blaming any of this on his compliments, the wine and being drunk, the lack of attention from you is wrong and shouldnt even come into the reasoning or the answer to why - a proper answer would be "I was horny and thought I could get away with it and also I put my morals on hold for that day in favour of my enjoyment and pleasure"
Know that you will need to keep an eye on her for the rest of your married life - unfortunately this will be more so in the beginning and limited to triggers after some time

So much for the harsh stuff and I apologise for being so, but I will only post once in a way but I will call it as I see it. The good news is she appears to truly love you (maybe nowhere near as much as you love her but such is life and its imbalances). Also she is bending over backwards to R which is a good sign - attacking the folk on TAM is not so good but as I said she perceives a lot of us here as a threat to your R (which to some extent, we probably are but for good reason). I think putting the D on hold is a mistake - why do you want to stay married ? You can still look at developing a new relationship even if you D.

If you do go ahead and R then good for you but do it carefully and go in with your eyes wide open and free of the fog. I am addressing you here because you came here for help. I am not entirely sure why your WW is here and if she needed help she would/should start her own thread. Good luck young lover wherever you are!


----------



## WalterWhite420

manfromlamancha said:


> Wow - an incredible set of posts on this thread!
> 
> OK Walter (Jack) here are some thoughts:
> 
> 
> It may have been a big mistake letting your WW on here but you have your reasons I guess - this super counsellor that you have might be right but I am not seeing anything beneficial to you yet.
> I understand that you think she is a goddess but that is because you are infatuated - earlier you asked if this was the way we are all supposed to love our spouses - the answer is no - we are not supposed to be blind to abuse
> From what I have heard so far, and excuse the bluntness, she was horny (oversexed as you put it), along comes a swinging d!ck with a bottle of wine and hey ho, lets go! She describes it as slapping his hands off until the dirty deed and you described it as her legs wrapped around him and him going like a Singer machine.
> It seems like she is here to fend off any threats to your R - I understand that, but it may not be the healthiest thing for you
> She may truly be remorseful now but she is not completely honest (even with herself) - lust is quite a normal feeling for oversexed women - blaming any of this on his compliments, the wine and being drunk, the lack of attention from you is wrong and shouldnt even come into the reasoning or the answer to why - a proper answer would be "I was horny and thought I could get away with it and also I put my morals on hold for that day in favour of my enjoyment and pleasure"
> Know that you will need to keep an eye on her for the rest of your married life - unfortunately this will be more so in the beginning and limited to triggers after some time
> 
> So much for the harsh stuff and I apologise for being so, but I will only post once in a way but I will call it as I see it. The good news is she appears to truly love you (maybe nowhere near as much as you love her but such is life and its imbalances). Also she is bending over backwards to R which is a good sign - attacking the folk on TAM is not so good but as I said she perceives a lot of us here as a threat to your R (which to some extent, we probably are but for good reason). I think putting the D on hold is a mistake - why do you want to stay married ? You can still look at developing a new relationship even if you D.
> 
> If you do go ahead and R then good for you but do it carefully and go in with your eyes wide open and free of the fog. I am addressing you here because you came here for help. I am not entirely sure why your WW is here and if she needed help she would/should start her own thread. Good luck young lover wherever you are!


Yes, Carrie and I have decided that her presence here is probably counter productive. She tends to defend herself vigorously, and that can turn some people off. She meant well here. And she enjoyed "meeting" a lot of you. Please wish us well.


----------



## krismimo

WalterWhite420 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Please be good to Carrie. She came on this forum because I asked her to. We were both warned that her toughness would be tested, and she is not one to lack in toughness. When she's hit, she hits back. And usually harder than she was hit.
> 
> I appreciate your support. I know that BS are accepted much better than WS around here, but I love Carrie to the ends of the earth and back. I've decided to give her and us another chance, and so far she has bent over backwards to cooperate and accomodate.
> 
> I'm giving her a big chance. Please give her at least a small chance.



She is given a chance to speak walter but don't coddle her. We weren't even close to asking the questions we normally asked we actually held back. I know I did. No one hit her Walter if you two really want to R then you have to put on adult pair of pants here. We can hold our own but she has a long way to go, so do you. No one is trying to be disrespectful were trying to help, not hurt help does not always come in a beautiful wrapped package. we have been there before you don't have to take the advice that was given everything is free will. But I will not sit here and coddle or baby anyone who is over the age of 18. 

The hysterical bonding has in a sense blinded you two of the reality of your problem so you have this US against the world attitude which marriage is all about just not so soon after a ONS. And anyone or anything that threatens that will be discarded. It doesn't work that way. Not this soon, it takes time and trust. Something you are not going to have over night. 

Walter/Jack what you also have to understand is that your wife needs to figure out not only why she did what she did but also ways to prevent that from happening again. But she also has to fix herself found out what it is that put her in this position. You can't fix that she has to figure that out for herself.. or not. 
Don't be her knight and shining armor anymore, those days are gone, and you still want to protect her because she is your wife. 
I get it and understand it. But it's not healthy. You have to figure out how to get your self back together, take care of yourself, and also love yourself, your not suppose to love so much where you are blinded to the problems around you. Even if it is your wife.


----------



## illwill

Seems to me you are working too hard at defending her. Just because you could not hold her accountable, does not mean others here should.

And you do need to file, because a truly remourseful wayward is humble.

Divorce tends to humble cheaters.

Also, after what you saw her doing, you need to figure out if what you feel is love, co-dependacy, and/or fear.

Hopefully im wrong about this. I wish you guys the best.


----------



## WalterWhite420

krismimo said:


> She is given a chance to speak walter but don't coddle her. We weren't even close to asking the questions we normally asked we actually held back. I know I did. No one hit her Walter if you two really want to R then you have to put on adult pair of pants here. We can hold our own but she has a long way to go, so do you. No one is trying to be disrespectful were trying to help, not hurt help does not always come in a beautiful wrapped package. we have been there before you don't have to take the advice that was given everything is free will. But I will not sit here and coddle or baby anyone who is over the age of 18.
> 
> The hysterical bonding has in a sense blinded you two of the reality of your problem so you have this US against the world attitude which marriage is all about just not so soon after a ONS. And anyone or anything that threatens that will be discarded. It doesn't work that way. Not this soon, it takes time and trust. Something you are not going to have over night.
> 
> Walter/Jack what you also have to understand is that your wife needs to figure out not only why she did what she did but also ways to prevent that from happening again. But she also has to fix herself found out what it is that put her in this position. You can't fix that she has to figure that out for herself.. or not.
> Don't be her knight and shining armor anymore, those days are gone, and you still want to protect her because she is your wife.
> I get it and understand it. But it's not healthy. You have to figure out how to get your self back together, take care of yourself, and also love yourself, your not suppose to love so much where you are blinded to the problems around you.


Yes, we're still working on the whys. We made progress today I think, but we'll talk a lot more tomorrow and in the days ahead...thank you all and keep posting please...

Good night (morning).


----------



## krismimo

Just trying to help walter, have a good night.


----------



## adriana

Carrie420 said:


> You are both presumptive and wrong. And you are obviously wishing us false success.
> 
> I was dumb, but not calculating. Was I vulnerable? Yes. Did I find the OM apalling? No. But did I desire him sexually before his advances? No. I wanted sex with Jack, but couldn't get it as much as I needed it. But the affair was all my fault. I know.
> 
> Good luck to you. And unlike you, I really mean it.



Presumptive? But of course. Wrong? I doubt that.

Carrie, for most mature, emotionally stable women, their home is a sacred place. We will go to great extents to protect it from outside influences. But you didn't have any problem with allowing in the man who displayed romantic/sexual interest in you. Needless to say, all that was done behind your husband's back. Even if it wasn't planned in advance, as you claim to be the case, you weren't naive and must have known that it would be the golden opportunity for the OM to make a move and try to have sex with you. But you still invited him in and started drinking wine with him. Why? Because you wanted it to happen. The idea was just to exciting to resist. Of course now, you just don't want to admit any of it because you're trying to make you affair a bit easier to swallow for Walter(Jack). 

I don't wish you false success. Not at all. It was a compliment, from one women to another, when I said that you know how to play this game. No need to get defensive about it. And thank you for your good wishes but, in my case, reconciliation isn't an option. Entirely my choice.

Good luck to both of you once again. I really mean it. :smthumbup:


Edit: CARRIE, DO NOT STOP POSTING!


----------



## adriana

SoulStorm said:


> Carrie, It was not a mistake It was a choice. A bad choice. You chose to give in Because deep down, you wanted to do what you did
> 
> The sooner you accept that, the sooner you can start healing. You know what you did was horrendous, but it wasn't a mistake, it is what you chose to do. I say this respectfully



:iagree: No question about that.


----------



## illwill

Just because you are not aware of being calculating, does not mean you are not.

Subconscious.


----------



## warlock07

Walt, how much do you believe that this was a one time thing ?

Carrie, I don't think this is a one time unplanned thing. I think you are lying about some of the details to either 1) make it easy on Walt and 2) give both of you more chance to R. 3) What he won't know won't hurt him.

How much likely is the first time you decide to cheat, you get caught by your husband who decided to return early the very same day?

How likely is it that the first time you decide to cheat, you decide to do it in your bedroom ? You said it escalated from drinking. Yet, you were clear enough to take it to the bedroom from the living room.

Would you believe this if you are on the other side ? 

Carrie, all this forum arguments might be a waste of your emotional energy and is better spent on your marriage. I am not expecting you to respond to my post or nor do I want you to defend yourself on what I posted. Just giving you a BS view on the situation


----------



## just got it 55

Carrie420 said:


> It would most certainly NOT have continued!!! I knew it was a horrible mistake from the start. I just didn't know how to stop it after I quit slapping him away. He wouldn't take no for an answer.


Carrie...................Please WTF 

You have my support but you have to do better than this

55


----------



## sinnister

I don't understand some of you here. I really don't. You claim you want to "understand the situation better" but its clear as day you're only here to bash. 

It's transparent and sad. You're not even trying to give advice anymore you're just trying to catch the WS in a lie or saying something to "catch" them. WTF is wrong with some of you people? This is what its come down to? Waiting for a WS to post and then jumping all over every word they say?

And then you expect them to just take it, like they owe any of you anything at all in this world? You're not helping Jack at all. Sure you'll get a sense of satisfaction in taking out your own personal fustrations on a cheater but are you helping the OP?

All I've read for the last few pages is posters absolutely baiting the WS into getting defensive and then calling her entitled...WTF????


----------



## convert

Carrie,
out of all the forums about infidelity this one is the most hard core one, i think.

I have not shared my whole story as a BS because i would be labeled a doormat and probably rightly so. at least you have the guts to post here.
he is even protecting you here, wow he loves you so much.
Keep up the hard work.

a lot of posters here are hard on BS as well as the WS.
They do have great insight and yes they like to take jabs here and there; most of the time is to test your response.

I too, think deep down subconciousely inviting the OM to the house you knew it was risky. 

i would love to hear the story of him saving your life sometime.


----------



## Stillasamountain

I'll preface this by saying I am really, really pulling for Walter.

However, the one time the OM makes a play and invites himself over, the one time she is weak and allows it, the one time they get drunk, the one time they have sex, the one time they have sex in your BED, the one time she's into it enough to be acting orgasmic... Is the ONE time you happen to come home unexpectedly?

Really?!? Astronomical odds.

Did the MC seem to accept her story?

Again, I hope I'm wrong and I'm rooting for you.


----------



## bfree

Carrie, I don't think you should stop posting. I think you should start your own thread. The 2x4's being thrown out are posters who have been through this attempting to verbalize the thoughts that might be going through your husband's mind from time to time. These posts are valuable to you because you are seeing things your husband might be feeling but loves you too much to actually say. If you start your own thread you also might receive advice from former waywards who don't feel comfortable posting in this thread for obvious reasons. TAM is a great resource but it's not easy. Then again neither is reconciliation after betrayal.


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## mahike

Carrie This is a tough road to walk on right now but I give you props for trying. Almost all of the BS's on this forum will tell you there wife or husband lied when the were first caught and tried to down play everything and then the trickle truth comes out. I am not going to call you a liar but it is fair to say that the odds are against you as far as the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Also doing it in your own home and then in your own bed is a major FU to your spouse. That is really sacred ground. Big difference on the coach in the den and the bed that I share with my husband.

I am really not against you two trying to R but what I am really against is not coming clean with your husband. Maybe it was just like you said but why would you cross that bedroom door. 

One of the things I can tell you about the R Carrie is that he really needs to know the whys of what happened. Also remember your why may not be a good enough reason for him so he will keep pounding on you for that good answer.

Good Luck to both of you


----------



## 2asdf2

sinnister said:


> I don't understand some of you here. I really don't. You claim you want to "understand the situation better" but its clear as day you're only here to bash.
> 
> It's transparent and sad. You're not even trying to give advice anymore you're just trying to catch the WS in a lie or saying something to "catch" them. WTF is wrong with some of you people? This is what its come down to? Waiting for a WS to post and then jumping all over every word they say?
> 
> And then you expect them to just take it, like they owe any of you anything at all in this world? You're not helping Jack at all. Sure you'll get a sense of satisfaction in taking out your own personal fustrations on a cheater but are you helping the OP?
> 
> All I've read for the last few pages is posters absolutely baiting the WS into getting defensive and then calling her entitled...WTF????


When WS first post here, the behaviors that BS have to deal with are reflected in their posts. You know the list:

Minimization
Blame shifting
Denial
Trickle truthing
Deception
Aggression
Lack of remorse
Arrogance

All these and more. The consequence is that other members recognize the behaviors for what they are, and become confronting, much as they believe the BS should be, were he/she in a position to do so.

The result of all that, is that the WS to BS dynamic is repeated here, and it becomes a WS versus TAM-posters series of arguments. Since the TAM-posters are not constrained by the factors that constrain Betrayed Spouses, the back and forth can get quite tense at times.

Carrie420 has not shown all the behaviors on my list (not an exhaustive one, BTW) but she has shown some. The effect of that is predictable, she herself said she'd been warned about it. She has been called on those behaviors, and she has not reacted well to being called.

I believe that both Jack and Carrie will benefit from participating in this discussion, sorting out the wheat from the chaff. Jack by seeing posters articulate thoughts he may be supressing or be reluctant to express, and Carrie by learning what thought processes become barriers to successful reconciliation.

As it is, the vast majority of posters are highly skeptical of Carrie's version of events. As long as that is so, I don't see that the tone of responses to her postings has much chance of changing.

We are a pro-marriage forum and we all take pride in the accomplishment of our WS/BS posting dyads who are in successful reconciliation. Let's hope Jack and Carrie become another of our success stories.


----------



## Graywolf2

In order for R to have a chance, you have to be honest with yourself and set the record straight. Once that is accomplished, you can work on the rest.

The facts are that you let a man with which you were having an EA into your home with a bottle of wine. Then you provided another bottle of wine. You did this on a day that Walter was scheduled to be home unusually late, something like 10 PM.



Carrie420 said:


> It would most certainly NOT have continued!!! *I knew it was a horrible mistake from the start. *


When was the “start” according to you?

Was it when the OM called to see if he could come over? Was it when you let him come in your front door with a bottle of wine? Was it when you opened the second bottle of wine? Was it when it when he couldn’t keep his hands off of you? Was it when you quit slapping him away? Was it when you were making your way to the bedroom?

Walter said that you were having a great time. Were you thinking “this is a horrible mistake” in the throes of passion?



Carrie420 said:


> I just didn't know how to stop it after I quit slapping him away. He wouldn't take no for an answer.


To me this implies that the OM was a force of nature that you couldn’t be expected to control. It’s like “the earthquake happened.” How can you be held responsible for an earthquake?



Carrie420 said:


> I don't think I minimized my conduct at all. I own the affair, 100%. Me and me alone. Jack didn't cause it or contribute to it. But there were extenuating circumstances that I crumbled under. Due to my weakness, yes, but still things that anyone would normally allude to.


I’m 100% responsible for all the broken dishes, me and me alone. But there was an earthquake. Due to my weakness, I wasn’t able to catch all the dishes.

The OM didn’t rape you, he seduced you. You could have told him I’m calling 911 if you don’t get out of here. You didn't say that because part of you liked the idea. Just admit it and move forward.

*Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.

John Adams, second president of the United States.*


----------



## bfree

Graywolf makes a great point. If this "incident" spiraled so far beyond your control that you couldn't stop it how do you reassure your husband that it won't happen again. After all, if you weren't in control then you can't prevent a reoccurrence. And if you were in control what part of you allowed/wanted it to happen. That is the part of you that needs to be work on in order to set your husband's mind at ease that he needn't worry about this behavior in the future.


----------



## jack.c

Well.... we all deal like we wish better for.
Personaly, when i caught in bed my so called best friend and my ex-fiance toghether, i was out of my mind but very realistic and determinated. Did'nt do any drama.... justi told them to get dressed cause it was disgusting.
I neede answers to my questions, once i had them i was gone...
paked up my few things i had at her house and left. It was a cold winter day and for that night i sleeped in my car.
Bottom line is that i could never see them like before, for me they wher dead!... they did the impossible to R with me (both) i forgave them but i'm not that type of person that can forget..... cant ever trust them.... NEVER.
If i tried to R. i dont know what life i would have, but for sure it would'nt be happier then now! (married with 2 kids)
good luck walter/jack, i just dont know if i should admire you or viceversa...


----------



## WalterWhite420

krismimo said:


> She is given a chance to speak walter but don't coddle her. We weren't even close to asking the questions we normally asked we actually held back. I know I did. No one hit her Walter if you two really want to R then you have to put on adult pair of pants here. We can hold our own but she has a long way to go, so do you. No one is trying to be disrespectful were trying to help, not hurt help does not always come in a beautiful wrapped package. we have been there before you don't have to take the advice that was given everything is free will. But I will not sit here and coddle or baby anyone who is over the age of 18.
> 
> The hysterical bonding has in a sense blinded you two of the reality of your problem so you have this US against the world attitude which marriage is all about just not so soon after a ONS. And anyone or anything that threatens that will be discarded. It doesn't work that way. Not this soon, it takes time and trust. Something you are not going to have over night.
> 
> Walter/Jack what you also have to understand is that your wife needs to figure out not only why she did what she did but also ways to prevent that from happening again. But she also has to fix herself found out what it is that put her in this position. You can't fix that she has to figure that out for herself.. or not.
> Don't be her knight and shining armor anymore, those days are gone, and you still want to protect her because she is your wife.
> I get it and understand it. But it's not healthy. You have to figure out how to get your self back together, take care of yourself, and also love yourself, your not suppose to love so much where you are blinded to the problems around you. Even if it is your wife.


Carrie is not really the kind of person to be coddled. She's convinced me (and I was REALLY HARD to convince) that she is truly remorseful, and is truly willing to do anything to make things as good as possible.

Some members here poked and prodded at her a bit, which I know is natural treatment of the WS, but when she punched back I think some people got the impression she was being defiant. She wasn't. She was (is) willing to read all the constructive criticism from anyone here, but let's be honest; some of it wasn't constructive. There were a few shots taken.

We had a really good night of conversation and I think we made progress on the whys. There's still deeper depths to be explored, I know. One wise poster pointed out that the ultimate is that she gave in because when push came to shove, she wanted to. And we've got to explore that in depth.

Because as many of you said, and as our MC said, Carrie's reasons for the affair may reveal something that needs to be fixed in Carrie. So Carrie and I are committed to getting to the root of why. I think we're both determined to get there, no matter how painful it might be or how long it may take.

Someone here mentioned sex addiction. I will explore that. But although Carrie has always had the sex drive of 2 women, she's never been into porn of any kind. She has no interest in things like group sex, or anything involving animals or pain. We push it to the very edge of kinky, but I don't think it crosses into sex addiction. If it does, then I'm probably a sex addict too. We have very similar preferences in bed, in both frequency and choice of activities.


----------



## WalterWhite420

Stillasamountain said:


> I'll preface this by saying I am really, really pulling for Walter.
> 
> However, the one time the OM makes a play and invites himself over, the one time she is weak and allows it, the one time they get drunk, the one time they have sex, the one time they have sex in your BED, the one time she's into it enough to be acting orgasmic... Is the ONE time you happen to come home unexpectedly?
> 
> Really?!? Astronomical odds.
> 
> Did the MC seem to accept her story?
> 
> Again, I hope I'm wrong and I'm rooting for you.


The MC accepted her story pending a polygraph. Our MC was delighted when we said we were doing polygraphs. She said it would help us (if Carrie didn't lie) progress faster because it would help me have more confidence that she was telling the truth.


----------



## WalterWhite420

krismimo said:


> Just trying to help walter, have a good night.


Thank you kris...I appreciate it.


----------



## sandc

WalterWhite420 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Please be good to Carrie. She came on this forum because I asked her to. We were both warned that her toughness would be tested, and she is not one to lack in toughness. When she's hit, she hits back. And usually harder than she was hit.
> 
> I appreciate your support. I know that BS are accepted much better than WS around here, but I love Carrie to the ends of the earth and back. I've decided to give her and us another chance, and so far she has bent over backwards to cooperate and accomodate.
> 
> I'm giving her a big chance. Please give her at least a small chance.


She's not being attacked. She's being asked tough questions. TAM has unorthodox methods too, just like your MC. In time you will understand that TAM's methods work. And 9 times out of 10 the BS comes back and says, "Well, you guys were right."


----------



## manfromlamancha

Walter, no one wants to attack anyone here - but if we see behaviour that is counterproductive, we will call it. This is not a game. You are a good man and more importantly, an intelligent and emotional man. The best combination and therefore I fully believe you will do what is right whilst not being unfeeling and unnecessarily cruel or vengeful (although many will say that you have the right to be). However, you are also in love with someone who might be your soulmate (from your perspective). You need to get a grip on this if only for this period while you sort this out.

What others are saying is that we all believe that your WW wants to reconcile but many things don't add up. The most obvious explanation is normally the right one in many cases and I am sure you know this. You need to be working on the right things and I am sure that you will and are.

As a highly attractive and very sexy woman, inviting any man to your home when you are alone is never a good thing - its called crossing a boundary (there is a key word for you to work on during your counselling - Carrie's boundaries). Next he turns up with a bottle of wine to say thank you having been hitting on you for at least a week if not much longer. It is incredulous that you do not think more is going to happen. Now comes the crunch - you think "so what - what Walter doesn't know won't hurt Walter" - thats called letting your morals down and surrendering to your dark side (another thing to explore in counselling - many of us surrender to our dark side and forsake our beliefs, morals, upbringing etc). You then enjoy it until your husband turns up and brings a hefty dose of reality back. It happens. What others are questioning is the coincidence that the one and only time WW decides to do all of this you turn up home early!?! Lets hope that it is just a coincidence and there is no more to it. If there is, then the honesty bit needs to also be addressed.

There is so much to be questioned here that TAM folk were falling over themselves to get to the bottom of it and it may have seemed like taking shots, or not being sincere etc. And then your WW demonstrating her "strength" (and I understand that this is partly what makes her attractive to you) was not the right thing to do - not here and not this type of strength. Real strength would have been to handle this, be honest and keep going to make things right for you. Other WWs here have shown this type of strength - EI, CM, MrsM etc. I have learned a hell of a lot from watching how they handled this.

So once again, I am genuinely rooting for you as you are shaping up to be TAM forum hero and will earn the respect of many. That in itself is not important unless it also helps you with your challenge. Good luck and keep being strong.


----------



## bandit.45

WalterWhite420 said:


> Yes, she claims.


I doubt this highly. She may be bucking the odds on the lie detector, but rarely does a fledgling cheater bring an AP into the home and into the marital bed the first time. Most first timers are scared to death of discovery...hence motels, weekends away with the girlfriends, etc. 

Also the laws of probability argue against it...that you just happened to get home at the *one first time * she was banging this guy, and the planets aligned perfectly to ensure that you would get home at just the right time to catch them in the middle of the act... all through serendipity?


----------



## CouldItBeSo

That is assuming you believe in the laws of probability. Not everyone do. It is kind of junk science as the "probable" may never happen.


----------



## Csquare

Here's my theory on the "why". I've noticed several threads on the forum involving LTR marriages with a beautiful wife straying, getting caught, and then fighting like he!! to keep their marriages intact. 

A beautiful woman has power - sometimes she's not even aware of her power - but that power has a shelf-life. No matter what we do, no matter how much we work-out, watch what we eat, we can not stop ole Father Time. 

Carrie is at the age I was when I realized I was becoming "invisible". As someone who's always enjoyed admiring gazes, that's quite a shocking change, to lose that power. I'm not a vain person, and my bet is that Carrie is not, either. Probably, the only admiring gaze she cared about was Jack's.

But, Jack has more demands on his time and attention from work. He is reaching peak power professionally and his sex-appeal (to other women) will maintain at the same level for 5 - 12 years, at least. While Carrie's currency will plummet rapidly, she thinks.

Carrie is terrified of losing Jack. He needs t-shots to keep up with her. (Stalking you on other threads, Jack.) She fears the loss of her beauty and youth and not sure what other means she has of holding his interest. The OM was nothing more than a tool to check her personal appeal. (If OM can get it up for her without a shot or a pill, then maybe she's not hopelessly over the hill.)

Jack, I hope when those mind movies are rolling, you can temper those images with the understanding that the woman with her legs wrapped etc. etc. is one who is above all, deeply in love with you, and terrified of losing you as her skin sags, jawline softens, creases deepen, etc. etc. all that other fun stuff with aging.

And Carrie, I hope you find it within to forgive yourself for doing the unforgivable. You may need to shore up on forgiveness for Jack if he falters in the face of a younger, tempting woman at some point.


----------



## adriana

WalterWhite420 said:


> Because as many of you said, and as our MC said, Carrie's reasons for the affair may reveal something that needs to be fixed in Carrie. So Carrie and I are committed to getting to the root of why. I think we're both determined to get there, no matter how painful it might be or how long it may take.



Walter, there are always circumstances and psychological reasons that make cheating/affair more or less likely to happen but ultimately it boils down to one question only.... do I want to cheat or not? And Carrie did. 

Apparently, you both want to reconcile so by all means you should go for it. You seem to have a good shot at making it work. But don't expect any "Earth shattering revelations" at your MC why she allowed herself to have an affair. It's unlikely there will be any. Keep in mind that therapists also have bills to pay like we all. If you indeed want to stay with her, sooner or later, you will just need to accept that at one point she, consciously or not, gave herself OK to cheat on you with another man. That's what it really was.


----------



## bandit.45

CouldItBeSo said:


> That is assuming you believe in the laws of probability. Not everyone do. It is kind of junk science as the "probable" may never happen.


It was a figure of speech.

I'm trying to convey that her story that this was the first time just doesn't strike me as believable. 

Maybe the alcohol was the tipping factor, who knows? But it is very rare for a first time sexual fling to happen in the WS's home.


----------



## sandc

Usually that kind of stuff happens on the couch. Making out, get carried away and... there you are. Very unusual to wander back to the bedroom first. 

I let my wife read Walter's initial post. Her first question to me was, "Wow, how long has she been seeing him?" Because what they were doing, and where they were doing it, and the enthusiasm being shown just didn't add up to one time in my wife's head either.

(See? I'm not always graphic.)


----------



## Tall Average Guy

WalterWhite420 said:


> I did check her PC for suspicious emails, but turned up none...her cell phone records and bills were paperless (sent to her email), so I couldn't track them.


You can usually order the phone and text records for the last year from a particular phone. Does not matter if the bill is paperless.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

WalterWhite420 said:


> Carrie is not really the kind of person to be coddled.


She may not need to be coddled, but she sure does not react well to others questioning her. She will need to work on that.


----------



## Mzflower

sandc said:


> Usually that kind of stuff happens on the couch. Making out, get carried away and... there you are. Very unusual to wander back to the bedroom first.


Exactly. 

Two bottles of wine, first time = quick raunchy sex on the couch.

Bedroom = husbands working late, finally have chance to have sex in a bed. 

This posom shows up (at noon) with a bottle of wine because it was planned. 

Sorry to sound so harsh... from the outside looking in, your wife's story doesn't make sense.


----------



## Acabado

adriana said:


> But don't expect any "Earth shattering revelations" at your MC why she allowed herself to have an affair. It's unlikely there will be any. Keep in mind that therapists also have bills to pay like we all. If you indeed want to stay with her, sooner or later, you will just need to accept that at one point she, consciously or not, gave herself OK to cheat on you with another man. That's what it really was.


This.


----------



## Clay2013

I think there are several things here that are not going to work really well for either of them. Why bring her to this site. Now I know most people say well if she is sincere she needs help to. Does this not ruin his chance of having a objective point of view if he has to fear her reading this? I could be wrong and maybe people on this site can reach her but after reading some of the post I highly doubt it. I am not trying to be mean or go against there wished just some things don't make a lot of sense. 

There is no way anyone will convince me her having sex with the OM in the marital bed was a one time deal. She clearly had enough time of this man being around her to feel comfortable enough to have sex with him in the bedroom. Most people would never even bring the OM to the house let alone to the bedroom at the house. My xW was smart enough not to at least. 

I think until she gives him everything and I mean everything this is not going to work. I think she sounds like she is really independent and likes to lead her own path. I do not see this working out really well for her at this point in time. As a BS myself he will be watching her like a hawk and probably second guessing everything she does. While she can tell him she will do anything to fix this I think she will find herself caged and this will only lead to more problems. 

Clay


----------



## bravenewworld

WalterWhite420 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Please be good to Carrie. She came on this forum because I asked her to. We were both warned that her toughness would be tested, and she is not one to lack in toughness. *When she's hit, she hits back. And usually harder than she was hit.*


Her sleeping with the OM in your marital bed wasn't an act of convenience - it was an act of aggression and disrespect to your relationship. 99% of the time a spouse chooses this location it is to retaliate against their significant other for perceived transgressions, real or imagined. The other 1% are just dumb as dirt and your wife doesn't seem to fall in that category. 

First time EVER and you caught them - wonder what the odds are for that? Sounds like a horrible reverse lottery. Lightening striking you is probably more likely than it her being her first time having a PA and/or EA. 

Just because you love someone is no excuse to bury your head in the sand. Put yourself first and really dig for the truth - it may set you free. Don't completely rely on the marriage counselor either because at the end of the day it's YOUR truth. Use what is helpful and question/disregard what isn't. Counselors are flawed too and they all have their own agendas. 

I've been where you're at and it's the worst possible place to be. Wishing you luck Jack/Walter.


----------



## mahike

Walter the polygraph test will be a real milestone for you both. If you go back through a great many of these threads they talk about the parking lot confession. As I mentioned in my last post Carrie maybe the exception to the rule but I know what you have been feeling an going through and I want you to be prepared for more information.

I hope the test proves us all wrong but there is a cheaters playbook and it could be a long time PA or a ONS but there are things that follow a certain path.

I am sure we would all like to hear what you are feeling and how you are coping but that may not be easy for you to do now that Carrie is on this site.

What I think most of us our trying to do is coach you through this problem and I hope that holds true with Carrie as well.

When is the test? Scheduled yet?


----------



## adriana

bravenewworld said:


> Her sleeping with the OM in your marital bed wasn't an act of convenience - it was an act of aggression and disrespect to your relationship. 99% of the time a spouse chooses this location it is to retaliate against their significant other for perceived transgressions, real or imagined. The other 1% are just dumb as dirt and your wife doesn't seem to fall in that category.



:iagree: As painful as it may be for the OP to read, Bravenewworld has nailed it perfectly.... I agree 100%.


----------



## raven3321

sandc said:


> Usually that kind of stuff happens on the couch. Making out, get carried away and... there you are. Very unusual to wander back to the bedroom first.
> 
> I let my wife read Walter's initial post. Her first question to me was, "Wow, how long has she been seeing him?" Because what they were doing, and where they were doing it, and the enthusiasm being shown just didn't add up to one time in my wife's head either.
> 
> (See? I'm not always graphic.)


After reading Walter/Carrie's posts, something does seem a bit skewed. I didn't think about the whole scenario of heading to the bedroom. However, this is purely conjecture on our part. It could have happened exactly the way she said it did. It would just seem odd to me for her to lie after what he witnessed and after her pursuing him for a year. Why lie? Also throw in the fact that she's not only facing a poly, but insisting on it. 

What is troubling to me is the act itself. If she didn't enjoy it, why was she "moaning in pleasure"? I can see maybe her resisting his advances, but once he got her going she was just into it. I'm not a woman so I don't know.


----------



## bandit.45

bravenewworld said:


> Her sleeping with the OM in your marital bed wasn't an act of convenience - it was an act of aggression and disrespect to your relationship. 99% of the time a spouse chooses this location it is to retaliate against their significant other for perceived transgressions, real or imagined. The other 1% are just dumb as dirt and your wife doesn't seem to fall in that category.
> 
> First time EVER and you caught them - wonder what the odds are for that? Sounds like a horrible reverse lottery. Lightening striking you is probably more likely than it her being her first time having a PA and/or EA.


Here is another way of looking at it. 

Affair sex is often the hottest sex due to the danger/risk factor. The threat of getting caught adds to the excitement. 

Add to this doing it in the home, doing it on the Holy of Holies (the marital bed), and doing it during a time when there might have been the possibility hubby might come home early, and you have amplified the danger element by a factor of x100. Talk about a powerful orgasm!

My take is that Carrie, on top of being hypersexual, is also a risk junkie. She gets an adrenaline high on taking huge gambles. We see this alot with cheaters. 

Tantric sex with hubby was not enough for her. She had to up the ante, and she could not do that with Walter. She had to go where it was dangerous. 

I for one do not believe her for a minute when she said this sexcapade started out by happenstance and just escalated. She told sh!thead it was okay to come over, he brought the wine, she let him get her drunk, she let him seduce her and soon they were all over each other like mating banana slugs. This was a series of escalating bad choices and crossed boundaries.


----------



## illwill

Walter is asleep at the wheel. And her story is utter bs.

If it was not she would not get so defensive. The truth does not raise its voice. It simply exist. 

I said this before. He needs to figure out why he is still there, when most mens in the universe would leave. And dont tell me its because he loves her. Its too trite and simple. 

Her post sounds like a woman who would have no problem eventually doing this again. If you cannot explain or even take responsibility how can you say it will not happen again?


----------



## Squeakr

The hardest thing that I am having trouble grasping tis that the two of them managed to get drunk on 2 bottles of wine in under 2 hours. Something doesn't add up in my mind, as alcohol is being blamed.

Did she seem drunk when they were caught, the description of the action didn't sound like that to me.


----------



## BetrayedDad

bravenewworld said:


> Her sleeping with the OM in your marital bed wasn't an act of convenience - it was an act of aggression and disrespect to your relationship. 99% of the time a spouse chooses this location it is to retaliate against their significant other for perceived transgressions, real or imagined. The other 1% are just dumb as dirt and your wife doesn't seem to fall in that category.


If it was aggression then that too me wouldn't even be the worst case scenario. Worst case is it was an act of utter indifference. That the maritial bed and in essence Jack lost ALL meaning to her and he NEVER even crossed her mind. You can be angry towards someone and still love them. Once you lack empathy towards someone, well that's almost sociopathic behavior.

That's when the love is gone completely....


----------



## Rubicon

Hi All, long time lurker, first time caller.....

Carrie, are you the company librarian? Why didn't the POSOM return the books where they were borrowed from? Seriously, what a flimsy excuse for the rendezvous you most certainly planned. Just to be clear, I think you are lying through your teeth. How exactly did the POSOM know how to contact you at home anyway if it was all just harmless flirting at work? Or are we supposed to just gloss over this detail as an accepted part of your EA? (Walter/Jack get those phone records, there is more to this... and to the others, doesn't it seem aggressive of Carrie to "out" what I presume is Walters real name, why did she strip him of his anonymity? Total lack of respect is my only deduction)

There is simply no way this was a one time thing. She's lying because she is fully aware of what proof you have and knows you can't prove she is lying. She'll beat the poly because she is remorseless and is confident she will not be discovered. Don't accept that you can't get the phone records. Make her provide them. The truth will be in there. If she's willing to do anything to save the marriage, then this is a pretty simple thing to do. Make sure you get them delivered to you and not anywhere she can get her hands on them first. She's already proved she can't be trusted so do yourself a favor and stop even trying to trust her until you find out for yourself how deep this all goes.

By Coming here she took away WW's source of strength. He was doing well, by his IC's account, after he found this site. She disarmed him and steamrolled over his one place of solace. Her statement that "She'll LET Jack" reply later shows this pretty clearly and at the very least is a huge red flag.

She did claim she was going to win when she said she will not accept failure, apparently she does not see her actions as clearly those of a complete loser. (her acceptance notwithstanding) She's already lost, but she seems content with that so long as she can drag WW down with her.

The MC gets paid to assist reconciliation, her job ends the second WW decides to end this sham, I would not trust her at all. She is simply motivated by profit.

Carrie's attitude changed completely here within a day of WW cancelling the divorce proceedings. In her mind a victory for her, she's got what she wanted all along. Her true self started showing as her confidence in getting her own way grew. 

Jack, when someone shows you (not Tells you) who they truly are, believe them, She IS the woman you witnessed getting her seams stitched, NOT the woman crying to you now, You are only seeing what you think you want to see, not what is really there. 

Carries posts in the beginning show how calculating she is, if you could script what a WS would say to show remorse to the members here it would resemble exactly her phrasing, seems a little too convenient to me, her lack of patience when asked to explain it all in detail shows it isn't sincere. She thought she could fool the members as easily as she could fool WW, when she discovered the members here are well versed enough to not buy into her BS she bailed. To me, her actions negate everything she's said.

Walter, I support you, I could give a crap about the marriage or the happiness of your Cheatin' wife. I understand you think your in love and you think you can get things back on track and I wish you luck in being happy but even from Canada I can smell what is going on with your wife and it stinks to high heaven.

I'm pretty sure there is no advice in anything I've said but I do think they are observations I would seriously consider before I worked on any sort of reconciliation.


----------



## adriana

BetrayedDad said:


> If it was aggression then that too me wouldn't even be the worst case scenario. Worst case is it was an act of utter indifference. That the maritial bed and in essence Jack lost ALL meaning to her and he NEVER even crossed her mind. You can be angry towards someone and still love them. Once you lack empathy towards someone, well that's almost sociopathic behavior.
> 
> That's when the love is gone completely....



Great point and while I agree with you, I don't believe this is the case here. Of course, I realize that you were only speaking hypothetically in your post. 

Carrie appears to be rather independent, strong willed woman who knows how to take care of herself. If she didn't care about Walter(Jack), she wouldn't try to reconcile with him. She could easily have many other options in life if she wanted them. But, regardless of what she has done, she still wants to be with him. At least for now.


----------



## Squeakr

adriana said:


> Great point and while I agree with you, I don't believe this is the case here. Of course, I realize that you were only speaking hypothetically in your post.
> 
> Carrie appears to be rather independent, strong willed woman who knows how to take care of herself. If she didn't care about Walter(Jack), she wouldn't try to reconcile with him. She could easily have many other options in life if she wanted them. But, regardless of what she has done, she still wants to be with him. At least for now.


Or she just wants him all the more because it is something she sees that she had but might lose and thus wants it again, like a kid with a toy that only wants it when others want to play with it, then lays their claim on it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

Squeakr said:


> Or she just wants him all the more because it is something she sees that she had but might lose and thus wants it again, like a kid with a toy that only wants it when others want to play with it, then lays their claim on it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The dogbone syndrome. 

Dog is finished with a bone and buries it so no other dogs can have it. 

I would venture to guess that WW is a good looking man and probably desirable to other women... hence his ease at picking up a gal on New Years. Carrie doesn't want another woman having him.

Could it be that simple? 

By the way Carrie, how did you feel when WW told you he banged another gal on New Years? Did you feel like "Okay, the playing field is even now. Now we can move forward again." or were you devastated?


----------



## nuclearnightmare

WalterWhite420 said:


> Do you not think any cheater ever deserves another chance?
> 
> I'm not arguing with you, I'm just asking an honest question.


walter:
just saw your question. no I don't think they ever _deserve_ a 2nd chance at the marriage. In certain circumstances it is in the BS best interests to _give _them a 2nd chance. and overall I believe those circumstances are rare.

caveat: am behind in the thread, have not yet read past where your wife begins to post.


----------



## 2asdf2

bandit.45 said:


> Here is another way of looking at it.
> 
> Affair sex is often the hottest sex due to the danger/risk factor. The threat of getting caught adds to the excitement.
> 
> Add to this doing it in the home, doing it on the Holy of Holies (the marital bed), and doing it during a time when there might have been the possibility hubby might come home early, and you have amplified the danger element by a factor of x100. Talk about a powerful orgasm!
> 
> My take is that Carrie, on top of being hypersexual, is also a risk junkie. She gets an adrenaline high on taking huge gambles. We see this alot with cheaters.
> 
> Tantric sex with hubby was not enough for her. She had to up the ante, and she could not do that with Walter. She had to go where it was dangerous.
> 
> I for one do not believe her for a minute when she said this sexcapade started out by happenstance and just escalated. She told sh!thead it was okay to come over, he brought the wine, she let him get her drunk, she let him seduce her and soon they were all over each other like mating banana slugs. This was a series of escalating bad choices and crossed boundaries.


B45:

Please: Don't ever stop painting the pictures.


----------



## Racer

CouldItBeSo said:


> That is assuming you believe in the laws of probability. Not everyone do. It is kind of junk science as the "probable" may never happen.


I use probable all the time. It is a specific word versus possible. As put to me, it is 'possible' to strap a rocket to a cow to get the beast to jump over the moon. However, it is not probable anyone would ever go through the expense of doing that just to prove the point.

As it relates to polygraphs. Criminal law requires “beyond the shadow of a doubt”... so 90% doesn’t meet that and why they aren’t admissible beyond speculation or opinion (and why some still take them to help them prove their innocence). Usually, like here, it is those that know they might fail that refuse to take it. It is possible to get a false reading, but not probable. As far as the rest of us go in the real world; Those ain’t bad odds particularly when you consider the ‘probability’ and ‘possibility’ of how much a wayward lies. 

Bottom line; I’d trust the poly more than my WW. I didn’t do it though because of the limitations of how many questions. So I get a yes or no on 3.... not a big deal with a SA where I can’t even narrow down the list of suspects to 3 guys much less the actions.


----------



## WalterWhite420

sandc said:


> She's not being attacked. She's being asked tough questions. TAM has unorthodox methods too, just like your MC. In time you will understand that TAM's methods work. And 9 times out of 10 the BS comes back and says, "Well, you guys were right."


I honestly don't think Carrie was simply being asked tough questions. That was part of it, yes. There were some tough but fair questions asked. Good. But when she was cooperative she was baited to some extent, and attacked to some smaller extent. Then when she exhibited the toughness that several people said she needed to show in order to be taken seriously, she was deemed, I think, defiant by many here.

In any event, Carrie is here for help. But since, as one poster described, this site is 95% BS and only 5% WS, would another web site be better for her?

And just as importantly, would this site be better off without her?

We want help. Thank you.


----------



## dogman

WalterWhite420 said:


> Don't you think I've pondered that a billion times? A half-hour sooner? I was feeling queezy at work since 10:00AM. I started to come home then, but a vice president requested a walk-through of my lab, and I stayed to comply...oh what if...


Don't torture yourself. If you stopped her she may have done it later or chose someone else. It is what it is. 

Hang in there. You may yet end up in a better place. My wife and I went through 7 years of recovery and we are tighter and better than we ever were....but it took a long time and a lot of hard work.
I may not have always said it's better but right now that's how it feels.


----------



## Racer

Walt, I’m sorry, but my perspective is you still aren’t seeing this in the right perspective.
If there was a woman at work whom you know wanted you and would often express this, how would you handle it?
This is her:


WalterWhite420 said:


> She began working "overtime" 2 days per week. She sometimes got dolled up to go to the "grocery store". She began a Facebook account, and spent a lot of hours on the computer. Our sex life dwindled, but was still great when we had sex. She always was a (good) beast in bed. Both of us are somewhat "over-sexed", so when we went from having sex 4-5 times per week to only once or twice per week, it seemed strange. She claimed the change was because she was working "overtime", and was "under a lot of pressure at work". I'll say.


So, she spent more time around him, thought more about him, dressed to attract him, and slowed up sex with you. (Funny how the sex thing also became part of her excuse eh? Who’s idea was that anyway?) 

Also, I’m sorry, but you don’t invite over for some 1 on 1 time with a couple bottles of wine without your spouse. Superbad with someone you know is pursuing you. Would you do that or anyone else in a committed relationship you know of? No one is that naive... she knew what the probable outcome would be and where it would go. Hell, she even lined up the drunk excuse. Is it unreasonable to predict this guy would have his hands all over her? She knew that was going to happen.... and invited it.

This wasn’t a “perfect storm” or a impulse. This was a building up that began long ago. She is remorseful about the sex and how it affected you probably because like most waywards, she never really considered you and only thought about herself. And now it is affecting her in very negative ways. She’s still pursuing what she wants. 

She wants you now... Is that really true, or is it she wants what you might take away from her life should you divorce? How long before she takes that for granted again and only looks at what you aren’t instead of valuing what you are? That one will haunt you....

So what do you do? Nothing.... you just watch and listen. She must develop a new set of coping mechanisms otherwise she’ll repeat it somewhere down the line. She’ll need to dig deep into her real ‘why’ and figure out how she allowed herself to handle it mentally the way she did... And the sucky part for you is there really is no way to know so you’ll watch her all over the spectrum for how she handles herself with disappointment, rejection, self-esteem issues, etc. It gets scary for you... Because you already know you can’t distinguish between the actor and what’s really going on in her head. 

That’s what kinda of dies. Before discovery, I almost thought of my wife sort of as an extension of myself feeling that I truly knew her. Discovery changed that. I recognize now that I only know those parts she is willing to share... everything else she keeps inside or chooses to share with others. So, all I can do is control myself and hope my belief in her is based on a true representation rather than some nice portrait she paints for my benefit.


----------



## WalterWhite420

illwill said:


> Seems to me you are working too hard at defending her. Just because you could not hold her accountable, does not mean others here should.
> 
> And you do need to file, because a truly remourseful wayward is humble.
> 
> Divorce tends to humble cheaters.
> 
> Also, after what you saw her doing, you need to figure out if what you feel is love, co-dependacy, and/or fear.
> 
> Hopefully im wrong about this. I wish you guys the best.


I played the hate game for months. It was a stage I had to go through I guess. Now that I've decided to give her another chance, I want it to be a fair chance. So if it fails, I can move on without wondering "What if".


----------



## WalterWhite420

CouldItBeSo said:


> I'm sorry this is totally off-topic and probably inappropriate but if the photo in your profile is you I think you're a babe too (in a complimentary way).


No, that's not her picture. Google "Mila Kunis Pictures". You'll see almost exactly what Carrie looks like.

Try some of these

https://search.yahoo.com/search;_yl...s+hair&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-745


----------



## WalterWhite420

Racer said:


> Walt, I’m sorry, but my perspective is you still aren’t seeing this in the right perspective.
> If there was a woman at work whom you know wanted you and would often express this, how would you handle it?
> This is her:
> 
> So, she spent more time around him, thought more about him, dressed to attract him, and slowed up sex with you. (Funny how the sex thing also became part of her excuse eh? Who’s idea was that anyway?)
> 
> Also, I’m sorry, but you don’t invite over for some 1 on 1 time with a couple bottles of wine without your spouse. Superbad with someone you know is pursuing you. Would you do that or anyone else in a committed relationship you know of? No one is that naive... she knew what the probable outcome would be and where it would go. Hell, she even lined up the drunk excuse. Is it unreasonable to predict this guy would have his hands all over her? She knew that was going to happen.... and invited it.
> 
> This wasn’t a “perfect storm” or a impulse. This was a building up that began long ago. She is remorseful about the sex and how it affected you probably because like most waywards, she never really considered you and only thought about herself. And now it is affecting her in very negative ways. She’s still pursuing what she wants.
> 
> She wants you now... Is that really true, or is it she wants what you might take away from her life should you divorce? How long before she takes that for granted again and only looks at what you aren’t instead of valuing what you are? That one will haunt you....
> 
> So what do you do? Nothing.... you just watch and listen. She must develop a new set of coping mechanisms otherwise she’ll repeat it somewhere down the line. She’ll need to dig deep into her real ‘why’ and figure out how she allowed herself to handle it mentally the way she did... And the sucky part for you is there really is no way to know so you’ll watch her all over the spectrum for how she handles herself with disappointment, rejection, self-esteem issues, etc. It gets scary for you... Because you already know you can’t distinguish between the actor and what’s really going on in her head.
> 
> That’s what kinda of dies. Before discovery, I almost thought of my wife sort of as an extension of myself feeling that I truly knew her. Discovery changed that. I recognize now that I only know those parts she is willing to share... everything else she keeps inside or chooses to share with others. So, all I can do is control myself and hope my belief in her is based on a true representation rather than some nice portrait she paints for my benefit.


I've got a list of 200 questions she'll be asked on Thursday during a polygraph. Many of those questions pertain to the points you've brought up here.

What should I think if she passes that polygraph 100%? Could I have been wrong in some of the conclusions I jumped to (and wrote about in my original post) just after DDay, while interrogating her over and over while I was high on marijuana? She says so under penalty of perjury. We'll see Thursday.

I can tell you that if she doesn't pass the polygraph, R is OVER. She knows that. I made sure she knew it before we went to Pasadena. One lie, and it's over.

If she fails Thursday, fine. I'm out, on to a new life, and had a great past 2 weeks of the hottest sex I've ever had.


----------



## Racer

WalterWhite420 said:


> I've got a list of 200 questions she'll be asked on Thursday during a polygraph. Many of those questions pertain to the points you've brought up here.
> 
> What should I think if she passes that polygraph 100%?
> 
> I can tell you that if she doesn't, R is OVER. She knows that. I made sure she knew it before we went to Pasadena. One lie, and it's over.


200 questions? I'd question the validity of your examiner. Most limit it to 'yes or no' and 3-5 questions. One of the reasons is they don't want it overly emotional. They also typically help you 'word' the question to find the answer you want. 200 seems like an interrogation where the validity is going to drop immensely...

The other issue is it is incredibly hard to ask questions when you don't know what the secrets might be. And sometimes, there isn't follow up. Like "besides mr. x, have there been others?" and she answers "yes"... then later gives you some sort of story about some dude who kissed her and she was afraid to answer 'no'. It will haunt you whether it was a 'kiss' or something more.... So off you go to yet another poly. And it just leaves you with even more questions where you aren't sure you can trust the answers.

Luckily for you, so far it doesn't sound like your wayward has done any major trickle that is countered by what you do know. Mine was the opposite of that. Denied everything until 'beyond a shadow of a doubt' (100% accuracy) could be established by me.


----------



## rrrbbbttt

She passes the polygraph with truthful answers but the answers are not what you wanted, marriage over?


----------



## WalterWhite420

Racer said:


> 200 questions? I'd question the validity of your examiner. Most limit it to 'yes or no' and 3-5 questions. One of the reasons is they don't want it overly emotional. They also typically help you 'word' the question to find the answer you want. 200 seems like an interrogation where the validity is going to drop immensely...
> 
> The other issue is it is incredibly hard to ask questions when you don't know what the secrets might be. And sometimes, there isn't follow up. Like "besides mr. x, have there been others?" and she answers "yes"... then later gives you some sort of story about some dude who kissed her and she was afraid to answer 'no'. It will haunt you whether it was a 'kiss' or something more.... So off you go to yet another poly. And it just leaves you with even more questions where you aren't sure you can trust the answers.
> 
> Luckily for you, so far it doesn't sound like your wayward has done any major trickle that is countered by what you do know. Mine was the opposite of that. Denied everything until 'beyond a shadow of a doubt' (100% accuracy) could be established by me.


Didn't know the number of questions were limited. My sister set up the poly, and was supposed to get an instruction package sent to us. I just assumed it would be open-ended. I need to call my sister.


----------



## WalterWhite420

rrrbbbttt said:


> She passes the polygraph with truthful answers but the answers are not what you wanted, marriage over?


That's a good question.

I've asked her all the questions already. If her answers hold up under the poly, I'll agree to proceed with the R attempt.


----------



## WyshIknew

Squeakr said:


> The hardest thing that I am having trouble grasping tis that the two of them managed to get drunk on 2 bottles of wine in under 2 hours. Something doesn't add up in my mind, as alcohol is being blamed.
> 
> Did she seem drunk when they were caught, the description of the action didn't sound like that to me.


Also, as mentioned by others, I would not be sat at home while my wife was away, drinking two bottles of wine with another woman. She would have to be an amazingly rock steady friend of the family, my mum or my Mother in law.

Talk about the instrument of your own downfall.


----------



## Racer

Oh, and I should add. The point of a poly is that you, the one who was lied to, has trustworthy information. Sort of like needing to make sure the bodies have all been exhumed BEFORE you start thinking about whether or not you can fix it. 

I had a false R and months plus $$ in a good shrink wasted. Because her “why” was all screwed up: Job loss, depression, weight gain, etc. She’d just omitted it wasn’t her first... and guess what? She had a job she loved and all those other “why’s” didn’t apply. So the counseling and so forth was focused on the entirely wrong problems. She’s got to unearth all the bodies or that rot and stink will fill your home. After this, why she lied so much became the focus... until that was fixed, it was pointless to touch on marriage problems. 

In racing they have a saying; “Fix the nut behind the wheel first”.


----------



## WalterWhite420

WalterWhite420 said:


> Didn't know the number of questions were limited. My sister set up the poly, and was supposed to get an instruction package sent to us. I just assumed it would be open-ended. I need to call my sister.


OK, my sister set up the poly A WEEK LATER than I asked her to. Her mistake. This is why, I guess, we haven't gotten the instruction package yet.

Only yes or no questions? Limited to 3-5 per session? Is that you understanding? Carrie answered all 200 questions in depth thinking she would be asked them all during a poly Thursday.


----------



## illwill

WalterWhite420 said:


> I played the hate game for months. It was a stage I had to go through I guess. Now that I've decided to give her another chance, I want it to be a fair chance. So if it fails, I can move on without wondering "What if".


Good luck with that.


----------



## WalterWhite420

illwill said:


> Good luck with that.


Do you mean that even if she proves to be a liar, that I would still have trouble moving on without wondering "What if"?

Maybe I would. This is all new ground to me.


----------



## 3putt

Racer said:


> 200 questions? *I'd question the validity of your examiner. *


Not necessarily, but I'll explain through a PM as to divulge the why.


----------



## illwill

WalterWhite420 said:


> Do you mean that even if she proves to be a liar, that I would still have trouble moving on without wondering "What if"?
> 
> Maybe I would. This is all new ground to me.


No. I meant good luck.


----------



## MattMatt

Squeakr said:


> The hardest thing that I am having trouble grasping tis that the two of them managed to get drunk on 2 bottles of wine in under 2 hours. Something doesn't add up in my mind, as alcohol is being blamed.
> 
> Did she seem drunk when they were caught, the description of the action didn't sound like that to me.


You obviously haven't drunk some of the wine I have drunk! 2 bottles of wine in under 2 hours can get someone very drunk.


----------



## illwill

MattMatt said:


> You obviously haven't drunk some of the wine I have drunk! 2 bottles of wine in under 2 hours can get someone very drunk.


This is true.


----------



## happyman64

Carrie420 said:


> I will definitely tell that story sometime soon here...honestly and simply...Jack gave his life for mine...he acted in the only way possible to save my life when in fact it surely seemed to ensure his own death...he just knew he was going to die if he saved me...but he chose to save me anyway...
> 
> *What did I do to deserve this man*?


Answer that question the day Jack is able to tell you that he forgives you and feels that your marriage is fully Reconciled.

I think that day at that time you will know why you truly deserve him.


----------



## dogman

WalterWhite420 said:


> Carrie is not really the kind of person to be coddled. She's convinced me (and I was REALLY HARD to convince) that she is truly remorseful, and is truly willing to do anything to make things as good as possible.
> 
> Some members here poked and prodded at her a bit, which I know is natural treatment of the WS, but when she punched back I think some people got the impression she was being defiant. She wasn't. She was (is) willing to read all the constructive criticism from anyone here, but let's be honest; some of it wasn't constructive. There were a few shots taken.
> 
> We had a really good night of conversation and I think we made progress on the whys. There's still deeper depths to be explored, I know. One wise poster pointed out that the ultimate is that she gave in because when push came to shove, she wanted to. And we've got to explore that in depth.
> 
> Because as many of you said, and as our MC said, Carrie's reasons for the affair may reveal something that needs to be fixed in Carrie. So Carrie and I are committed to getting to the root of why. I think we're both determined to get there, no matter how painful it might be or how long it may take.
> 
> Someone here mentioned sex addiction. I will explore that. But although Carrie has always had the sex drive of 2 women, she's never been into porn of any kind. She has no interest in things like group sex, or anything involving animals or pain. We push it to the very edge of kinky, but I don't think it crosses into sex addiction. If it does, then I'm probably a sex addict too. We have very similar preferences in bed, in both frequency and choice of activities.


WW, this is a HUGE post for you. You say a lot of things that really matter.

-Her deep down reason for doing this IS something that needs to be fixed in her. But....from her perspective, it's so hard to actually reveal this kind of stuff to even herself. I know this from experience.

-sex addiction is not necessarily kinky or involving porn. Any addiction is simply something that has an overwhelming influence on your actions and motivations but to a degree of destruction.

-Her ego combined with her urges and her selfish perspective are dangerous. People with these combinations tend to be able to rationalize just about anything. But that's not to say they dont regret their actions later...but...once a deeds done it's done, regret is easy and prisons are full of people who regret.

- I know for a fact that you can decide on the truth and if you repeat it enough you believe it. You have to be convicted in what you decide the truth is and be willing to die for it. A person who can cheat in your marital bed could do this.

She may need to be completely broken before she can admit the things she needs to admit. I know you've both cried and suffered but she doesn't seem to be there yet.

I seriously hope she gets there and you can both enjoy the healing that will come from it.


----------



## WalterWhite420

illwill said:


> No. I meant good luck.


Thank you.


----------



## cool12

Squeakr said:


> The hardest thing that I am having trouble grasping tis that the two of them managed to get drunk on 2 bottles of wine in under 2 hours. Something doesn't add up in my mind, as alcohol is being blamed.


don't forget though that it wasn't even lunch time when they started drinking. not many calories in the system that early in the day. it's a cheap time to get wasted.


----------



## Squeakr

MattMatt said:


> You obviously haven't drunk some of the wine I have drunk! 2 bottles of wine in under 2 hours can get someone very drunk.


I know that there are some pretty stout ports I have had that are in the 25% range but you don't sit down and drink those straight. You sip them as a dessert wine (and they were mainly a brandy anyway so not a straight drinking wine). Also this was 2 bottles between 2 people so 1 bottle per. I still don't see someone getting that drunk off that amount in that short of time frame. Call me crazy but I just don't believe if they were that drunk it wouldn't show as he drove away and she was coherent enough to know and recognize the severity of the situation when it happened. Maybe I am just not such a light weight???
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cool12

what still gets me is carrie describing the affair as "unsatisfying." of course it was, you got caught! 
ime, when something is unsatisfying you QUIT doing it. like, i'm not satisfied with my hairdresser anymore so i'm going to consciously quit going to him. 
how long was it "unsatisfying" before she was caught? it makes me think it wasn't a ONS.


----------



## cool12

double post


----------



## Squeakr

cool12 said:


> don't forget though that it wasn't even lunch time when they started drinking. not many calories in the system that early in the day. it's a cheap time to get wasted.


We don't know this. We know that he called at 11:00 am (not sure when he arrived or they started drinking and if they had eaten or not just speculation on our part) and that Walter got home around 1:30pm and caught them in the act. We don't know the time frames that everything else transpired in. They could easily have drab 2 bottles in 45 min in which case the effects would more than likely not have hit them yet.

If we want to give them that benefit of the doubt then we also have to question why they were drinking so early in the morning if they had not planned this? Do others just happen to start drinking before noon on an empty stomach without something special planned or in mind? Generally the answer is no.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WalterWhite420

cool12 said:


> don't forget though that it wasn't even lunch time when they started drinking. not many calories in the system that early in the day. it's a cheap time to get wasted.


Carrie never eats breakfast, even though she should. And she started drinking that day just before lunch. Nothing but coffee and wine in her system. I would imagine she was pretty well drunk. But that's no excuse, and she readily admits that.


----------



## WalterWhite420

cool12 said:


> what still gets me is carrie describing the affair as "unsatisfying." of course it was, you got caught!
> ime, when something is unsatisfying you QUIT doing it. like, i'm not satisfied with my hairdresser anymore so i'm going to consciously quit going to him.
> how long was it "unsatisfying" before she was caught? it makes me think it wasn't a ONS.


I'm exploring this. I'm really into trying to find out what her intentions and feelings would have been if she HADN'T got caught the "supposed first time".


----------



## illwill

No excuse indeed.


----------



## illwill

WalterWhite420 said:


> I'm exploring this. I'm really into trying to find out what her intentions and feelings would have been if she HADN'T got caught the "supposed first time".


What is the mystery? She would clearly still be doing it. 

Believing anything else is silly.


----------



## Squeakr

WalterWhite420 said:


> I'm exploring this. I'm really into trying to find out what her intentions and feelings would have been if she HADN'T got caught the "supposed first time".


I know I sound like a doubting Thomas but the situation hits too close to home for me. Except for the marital bed part and the catching in the act. My WW's scenario was pretty darn close with the brining another man into my house, wine drinking, and the PA. She told me it was only a ONS and she regretted it immensely. She was sorry and all that Jazz. The thing is that her actions leading up to it for the 2 years prior were exactly like Carrie's. 

I did plenty of snooping and finally discovered the secret email account, apps, etc. Turns out that this was truly a ONS with a close friend of the family (from everything I have discovered) but it was also the ending of a 2 year PA with a former Boyfriend from High school (that she was going to never tell about and take to her grave as she thought so little of me that she wasn't going to divulge that little nugget of wisdom). So forgive me if what you have written just hits a little close to home and seems to mirror my situation which begs me to question the truth and sincerity. 

For your sake I hope it is the truth. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WalterWhite420

dogman said:


> WW, this is a HUGE post for you. You say a lot of things that really matter.
> 
> -Her deep down reason for doing this IS something that needs to be fixed in her. But....from her perspective, it's so hard to actually reveal this kind of stuff to even herself. I know this from experience.
> 
> -sex addiction is not necessarily kinky or involving porn. Any addiction is simply something that has an overwhelming influence on your actions and motivations but to a degree of destruction.
> 
> -Her ego combined with her urges and her selfish perspective are dangerous. People with these combinations tend to be able to rationalize just about anything. But that's not to say they dont regret their actions later...but...once a deeds done it's done, regret is easy and prisons are full of people who regret.
> 
> - I know for a fact that you can decide on the truth and if you repeat it enough you believe it. You have to be convicted in what you decide the truth is and be willing to die for it. A person who can cheat in your marital bed could do this.
> 
> She may need to be completely broken before she can admit the things she needs to admit. I know you've both cried and suffered but she doesn't seem to be there yet.
> 
> I seriously hope she gets there and you can both enjoy the healing that will come from it.


Thank you so much. Slowly but surely, I'm seeing that she made a choice to have the affair, even if it was just a quick, bad decision NOT to stop it. We're talking about this tonight. And I want to know why. And she has committed to doing everything in her power to finding out why herself.

Trash her for the affair (as I've done thousands of times), but I think she deserves just a very small little bit sliver of credit for her hard work at R, and her willingness to do WHATEVER I ask, no matter when or what.


----------



## happyman64

> She may need to be completely broken before she can admit the things she needs to admit. I know you've both cried and suffered but she doesn't seem to be there yet.


Dogman

I don't want to speak for Walter but if my wife cheated on me and I ignored her pleas, emails and phone calls for months.

While I might not call that breaking her I would certainly call that giving her plenty of time to reflect on her misdeeds.

The fact is that Carrie wants Walter. 

We rarely see the WS go back to wanting their BS so quickly.

But then again we rarely see the BS kick butt and take names later these days.

And while Walter definitely had Carrie on a pedestal before the Affair I would say that Walters eyes are pretty open now.

And Walter please do not try to ask Carrie 200 questions while hooked up to a lie detector.

That is like waterboarding her. 

I will now stop talking for Walter.

HM


----------



## sandc

WalterWhite420 said:


> Didn't know the number of questions were limited. My sister set up the poly, and was supposed to get an instruction package sent to us. I just assumed it would be open-ended. I need to call my sister.


I've taken polygraph exams. They were questioning me prior to getting a security clearance. It was only 15 questions. You will be limited on the number of questions because it's a drawn out process when you factor in the calibration questions. So think of 5 or 10 questions that you REALLY want to know if the answer is yes or no. Make sure the important questions are in the top 5.

Feel free to bounce those questions off us. Other BS's have.


----------



## WalterWhite420

Squeakr said:


> I know I sound like a doubting Thomas but the situation hits too close to home for me. Except for the marital bed part and the catching in the act. My WW's scenario was pretty darn close with the brining another man into my house, wine drinking, and the PA. She told me it was only a ONS and she regretted it immensely. She was sorry and all that Jazz. The thing is that her actions leading up to it for the 2 years prior were exactly like Carrie's.
> 
> I did plenty of snooping and finally discovered the secret email account, apps, etc. Turns out that this was truly a ONS with a close friend of the family (from everything I have discovered) but it was also the ending of a 2 year PA with a former Boyfriend from High school (that she was going to never tell about and take to her grave as she thought so little of me that she wasn't going to divulge that little nugget of wisdom). So forgive me if what you have written just hits a little close to home and seems to mirror my situation which begs me to question the truth and sincerity.
> 
> For your sake I hope it is the truth.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just wondering, if I might ask, did you polygraph her at any point?


----------



## WalterWhite420

sandc said:


> I've taken polygraph exams. They were questioning me prior to getting a security clearance. It was only 15 questions. You will be limited on the number of questions because it's a drawn out process when you factor in the calibration questions. So think of 5 or 10 questions that you REALLY want to know if the answer is yes or now. Make sure the important questions are in the top 5.
> 
> Feel free to bounce those questions off us. Other BS's have.


OK, I will. I'll come up with the top 15 and post them here for critique.


----------



## the guy

WalterWhite420 said:


> Didn't know the number of questions were limited. My sister set up the poly, and was supposed to get an instruction package sent to us. I just assumed it would be open-ended. I need to call my sister.


Get the instruction package.
When I took mine the questions were yes or no and not how I felt.

Did I know the guy that shot me=no
Was I involved with the fight=yes
Did I recognize the shouter=no
Was I in a confrontation with someone I knew=no
Were you in a confrontation the night of Aug.12, 1983=yes

The point here is asking the same question in a different way to maintain accuracy. See these things aren't very good so the examiner has to be on top of his game.

200 question will just confuse the results... so be specific with a few questions the examiner will figure out the rest by how many points were negitive to the same question worded differently.

it like if you ask several different questions they all could have -5 to -3 points, but if you ask the same question a different way your could have a reading of -3 then a -11 and then a -5 which would confirm deceit.

Like wise with a truthful answer

is your name the-guy=yes +8
do you have any other name other then the-guy=no +3


Hell I'm no expert. When I got shot 30 years ago I took one and thats what I was told ...and by the way my results were inconclusive.So make sure your old lady isn't smoking any weed before she goes.


----------



## WalterWhite420

happyman64 said:


> Dogman
> 
> I don't want to speak for Walter but if my wife cheated on me and I ignored her pleas, emails and phone calls for months.
> 
> While I might not call that breaking her I would certainly call that giving her plenty of time to reflect on her misdeeds.
> 
> The fact is that Carrie wants Walter.
> 
> We rarely see the WS go back to wanting their BS so quickly.
> 
> But then again we rarely see the BS kick butt and take names later these days.
> 
> And while Walter definitely had Carrie on a pedestal before the Affair I would say that Walters eyes are pretty open now.
> 
> And Walter please do not try to ask Carrie 200 questions while hooked up to a lie detector.
> 
> That is like waterboarding her.
> 
> I will now stop talking for Walter.
> 
> HM


Thank you HappyMan. Carrie and I hold your advice in the highest regard. If it hadn't been for you, I would probably not have gone on the Pasadena trip. And yet it was so monumental, I think, in building our confidence, resolve, and love that will be required to navigate this road of recovery. 

Thank you so much. If you EVER need anything...


----------



## Squeakr

WalterWhite420 said:


> Just wondering, if I might ask, did you polygraph her at any point?


No I didn't. I don't see the point as they are yes/ no questions and there is always an excuse for failure, not enough sleep, medication, didn't understand, etcetera. Why spend the money to still have doubts? Even if she passed it with flying colors I don't know that I would have believed that she was not doing something to get around it or that the examiner wasn't leading her with his tone and questioning (I am a total skeptic). Like was mentioned here, if there is no follow up question she may just claim it was a kiss, hug, etcetera and that is why she answered as she did so she wasn't lying. I know my WW is a blatant liar so how will I ever know I am getting the truth or a cover story? What if the results are inconclusive, then what? She will claim it is because of <insert excuse here> and that she was truthful and I will insist it is because she lied. Still no where and even less money than before. 

The funniest part is that the OM and her friends revealed more of the truth and sold her out than she did. Her claims of a ONS, turned into 3-4 times from him, so I doubled hers and added the two together and got closer to the truth. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WalterWhite420

Squeakr said:


> No I didn't. I don't see the point as they are yes/ no questions and there is always an excuse for failure, not enough sleep, medication, didn't understand, etcetera. Why spend the money to still have doubts? Even if she passed it with flying colors I don't know that I would have believed that she was not doing something to get around it or that the examiner wasn't leading her with his tone and questioning (I am a total skeptic). Like was mentioned here, if there is no follow up question she may just claim it was a kiss, hug, etcetera and that is why she answered as she did so she wasn't lying. I know my WW is a blatant liar so how will I ever know I am getting the truth or a cover story? What if the results are inconclusive, then what? She will claim it is because of <insert excuse here> and that she was truthful and I will insist it is because she lied. Still no where and even less money than before.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But respectfully, the FBI, CIA, secret service, police departments, etc, heavily depend upon polygraphs to screen perspective employees. If they have such confidence in polys, why shouldn't we?

Polys are not allowed as evidence court because (rightfully so) a machine should not be allowed to testify against a human in court.


----------



## Squeakr

WalterWhite420 said:


> But respectfully, the FBI, CIA, secret service, police departments, etc, heavily depend upon polygraphs to screen perspective employees. If they have such confidence in polys, why shouldn't we?
> 
> Polys are not allowed as evidence court because (rightfully so) a machine should not be allowed to testify against a human in court.


Do you really think that they are trying to find information or just prove the character of the individual with these tests? I have a theory that they are really just using them as an interview method to see how one reacts under pressure. I have heard of very few that were told they lost a job due to the "answers" on these tests but rather that it was because they failed the tests. I had the highest level security clearance in the Marines (handling cryptography and classified documents daily) and never had to take a poly. I wonder why if they are so valuable in determining things about people?

I think they are just a means to finding ones character under pressure and situations just like a job interview. Do most interviewers care about the answers given or the manner in which they are given and how the interviewee presents themselves? I think more the latter. Of you got that far you are being judged on the package and demeanor and not just the answers presented. 

Just because the machine says one thing the skill is in the examiners interpretation. If they "feel" something is there it can't prove it for sure then they will state that it could be one way or the other and therefor deem it inconclusive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## krismimo

Did you two do the blood tests yet? She needs to get checked out especially preventing things like HPV and all other fun stuff.


----------



## WalterWhite420

Squeakr said:


> Do you really think that they are trying to find information or just prove the character of the individual with these tests? I have a theory that they are really just using them as an interview method to see how one reacts under pressure. I have heard of very few that were told they lost a job due to the "answers" on these tests but rather that it was because they failed the tests. I had the highest level security clearance in the Marines (handling cryptography and classified documents daily) and never had to take a poly. I wonder why if they are so valuable in determining things about people?
> 
> I think they are just a means to finding ones character under pressure and situations just like a job interview. Do most interviewers care about the answers given or the manner in which they are given and how the interviewee presents themselves? I think more the latter. Of you got that far you are being judged on the package and demeanor and not just the answers presented.
> 
> Just because the machine says one thing the skill is in the examiners interpretation. If they "feel" something is there it can't prove it for sure then they will state that it could be one way or the other and therefor deem it inconclusive.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't know, but I would think the rationale behind polygraphs is that they can very well pick up the signs of "undue nervousness" in people. And this undue nervousness is many times caused by people who lie under fear of being discovered, which is true of most people who take the test. I don't know. I'm just rambling.


----------



## WalterWhite420

krismimo said:


> Did you two do the blood tests yet? She needs to get checked out especially preventing things like HPV and all other fun stuff.


Yes we did. We're fine physically.


----------



## krismimo

I forgot to ask but is the OM Single/In a relationship or Married?


----------



## krismimo

Keep checking every year if your not already doing so. Sadly things can lie dormant for a number of years before anything "shows" up, but that is really good to hear that your results are so far so good.


----------



## the guy

Squeakr said:


> Just because the machine says one thing the skill is in the examiners interpretation. If they "feel" something is there it can't prove it for sure then they will state that it could be one way or the other and therefor deem it inconclusive.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hence the the positive and negitive points to same question but worded differently.

As far as gov. agencies...hell they already now when you take a crap by the fluctuation on your water meter and how much booze you buy and at what store....,god only knows why they still give polygraphs.


----------



## WalterWhite420

krismimo said:


> I forgot to ask but is the OM Single/In a relationship or Married?


The OM died in a car accident 2 months ago. I only wish I could have been there to watch his heart stop beating and have done NOTHING to save him.

Much like Walter White did for Jane (Jesse's girlfriend).


----------



## cool12

WalterWhite420 said:


> The OM died in a car accident 2 months ago.


ykes. how has your W handled this?


----------



## Squeakr

WalterWhite420 said:


> I don't know, but I would think the rationale behind polygraphs is that they can very well pick up the signs of "undue nervousness" in people. And this undue nervousness is many times caused by people who lie under fear of being discovered, which is true of most people who take the test. I don't know. I'm just rambling.


I agree and this is what I was saying pretty much is that it is about the character of the person being interviewed and not the actual answers involved. What kind of assessment could they really get with a few yes/ no answers? I am not saying they are not a viable and valuable tool, just that I don't think that the true intent to get a certain answer but more about the total package response under pressure. All we know is how the test is administered and then a hat they do with the data and results after that is something only the different services really know that answer. Heck we also trust that swear on a bible in court is sufficient and viable but why don't we poly when that swear is happening if they are such a definitive tool to insure the swearee is being truthful in their swear answer. 

Would you trust your WS if they just swore on a bible (heck most do anyways) that they were telling the truth?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 3putt

Squeakr said:


> Do you really think that they are trying to find information or just prove the character of the individual with these tests? I have a theory that they are really just using them as an interview method to see how one reacts under pressure. I have heard of very few that were told they lost a job due to the "answers" on these tests but rather that it was because they failed the tests. I had the highest level security clearance in the Marines (handling cryptography and classified documents daily) and never had to take a poly. I wonder why if they are so valuable in determining things about people?
> 
> I think they are just a means to finding ones character under pressure and situations just like a job interview. Do most interviewers care about the answers given or the manner in which they are given and how the interviewee presents themselves? I think more the latter. Of you got that far you are being judged on the package and demeanor and not just the answers presented.
> 
> This is all hypothetical and supposition. Although you could be right, we have no way of knowing this. I don't know why people are so insistent on arguing people out of a tool that has been proven damned effective in THESE cases on THIS board over and over again. We're not talking about Osama Bin Laden being interrogated here. We're talking about WSs.
> 
> Just because the machine says one thing *the skill is in the examiners interpretation.* If they "feel" something is there it can't prove it for sure then they will state that it could be one way or the other and therefor deem it inconclusive.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'll definitely agree with this. They are trained to spot deception, and that's half, if not more, the value of the poly.


----------



## WalterWhite420

cool12 said:


> ykes. how has your W handled this?


She was anywhere from indifferent to glad, from what I could tell. No more chance of running into him while shopping, and having to call the cops to enforce her restraining order against him.


----------



## Squeakr

the guy said:


> Hence the the positive and negitive points to same question but worded differently.
> 
> As far as gov. agencies...hell they already now when you take a crap by the fluctuation on your water meter and how much booze you buy and at what store....,god only knows why they still give polygraphs.


Agreed. It isn't about the answer but the response, as those can't be predicted without a controlled setting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## nuclearnightmare

bandit.45 said:


> Carrie was this your first affair? You don't have to tell us, but you need to come clean with Walter if this was not your first cruise around the infidelity block.
> 
> I would recommend to Walter that he make this one of your lie detector questions.


:iagree:


----------



## WalterWhite420

Squeakr said:


> I agree and this is what I was saying pretty much is that it is about the character of the person being interviewed and not the actual answers involved. What kind of assessment could they really get with a few yes/ no answers? I am not saying they are not a viable and valuable tool, just that I don't think that the true intent to get a certain answer but more about the total package response under pressure. All we know is how the test is administered and then a hat they do with the data and results after that is something only the different services really know that answer. Heck we also trust that swear on a bible in court is sufficient and viable but why don't we poly when that swear is happening if they are such a definitive tool to insure the swearee is being truthful in their swear answer.
> 
> Would you trust your WS if they just swore on a bible (heck most do anyways) that they were telling the truth?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, the bible is easy to swear upon in jest...every president does it, and they still lie and deceive to no end.


----------



## Philat

Squeakr said:


> Do you really think that they are trying to find information or just prove the character of the individual with these tests? * I have a theory that they are really just using them as an interview method to see how one reacts under pressure. * I have heard of very few that were told they lost a job due to the "answers" on these tests but rather that it was because they failed the tests. I had the highest level security clearance in the Marines (handling cryptography and classified documents daily) and never had to take a poly. I wonder why if they are so valuable in determining things about people?
> 
> I think they are just a means to finding ones character under pressure and situations just like a job interview. Do most interviewers care about the answers given or the manner in which they are given and how the interviewee presents themselves? I think more the latter. Of you got that far you are being judged on the package and demeanor and not just the answers presented.
> 
> Just because the machine says one thing the skill is in the examiners interpretation. If they "feel" something is there it can't prove it for sure then they will state that it could be one way or the other and therefor deem it inconclusive.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Absolutely not. I am retired from a profession that makes extensive use of the poly in both hiring and routine employee screening and have taken several myself. They are designed to determine if the subject is withholding significant information.


----------



## krismimo

Ok so the OM died in car accident. Whoa..


----------



## WalterWhite420

nuclearnightmare said:


> :iagree:


It's one of the first questions on my list. Thank you.

I'm honestly not a blind, p-whipped husband of a drop-dead gorgeous wife...I'm going to ask the tough questions and demand honest responses...even if she is drop-dead gorgeous and I am p-whipped for her...

I'm holding her accountable...and am so wishing she proves to be truthful...because the marriage we had at one time was astonishing...that's the best word for it...astonishing.


----------



## WalterWhite420

Philat said:


> Absolutely not. I am retired from a profession that makes extensive use of the poly in both hiring and routine employee screening and have taken several myself. They are designed to determine if the subject is withholding significant information.


Thank you Philat. I appreciate your factual responses, and you are welcome in my thread.


----------



## Squeakr

3putt said:


> I'll definitely agree with this. They are trained to spot deception, and that's half, if not more, the value of the poly.


I agree it is all hypothesis and supposition on my part and stated that in the beginning. Don't misunderstand me, I am not telling anyone they should not use this tool, or even saying either way, I am just stating what my beliefs are and why I would not "require" a poly. Doesn't make my ideals any better than others just mine and why I act/ react the way I do. Others can take my ideals and agree or disagree but it won't change my position or beliefs. It is like arguing that one religion or political affiliation is right or better than another. Even with the best evidence you are not always going to change someone's beliefs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WalterWhite420

krismimo said:


> Ok so the OM died in car accident. Whoa..


Yes, a stroke of luck...IMHO...forgive me for being honest.

The only better outcome would have been if I could have choked the very life out of him myself, slowly, over several minutes, while he suffered in agony.

Again, forgive me for being honest.


----------



## Squeakr

Philat said:


> Absolutely not. I am retired from a profession that makes extensive use of the poly in both hiring and routine employee screening and have taken several myself. They are designed to determine if the subject is withholding significant information.


But that can be determined by the response and not necessarily the direct answer of the question. 

Do you know for a fact that a certain answer was the desired result, or more to the fact a certain response. Unless you are the one handling the data and determining the desired/ required response you can't say with any certainty what was the desired outcome of the poly in any given situation. They may have been used that way on your situation but that isn't always the case on a situations.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 3putt

Squeakr said:


> I agree it is all hypothesis and supposition on my part and stated that in the beginning. Don't misunderstand me, I am not telling anyone they should not use this tool, or even saying either way, I am just stating what my beliefs are and why I would not "require" a poly. Doesn't make my ideals any better than others just mine and why I act/ react the way I do. Others can take my ideals and agree or disagree but it won't change my position or beliefs. It is like arguing that one religion or political affiliation is right or better than another. Even with the best evidence you are not always going to change someone's beliefs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But what you're failing to see is the difference between what you believe to be true and what we _*know*_ to be true about the effectiveness of a poly on THIS board for THESE purposes. Like I said last night, we're not talking about interrogating a bunch of serial rapists, murderers or anything of that sort. We're talking about getting as much truth as we can from a wayward mindset for the benefit of the BS. It's up to them to decide if it's enough.

I wouldn't argue with you about the complete accuracy of a poly at all. But it's been *proven* over and over again to be quite reliable for the situations that we deal with here.

Is it completely infallible here, or anywhere else for that matter? Of course not....but I'll go with the numbers that support my stance for what we do here, _and here only_.


----------



## Philat

Squeakr said:


> But that can be determined by the response and not necessarily the direct answer of the question.
> 
> Do you know for a fact that a certain answer was the desired result, or more to the fact a certain response. Unless you are the one handling the data and determining the desired/ required response you can't say with any certainty what was the desired outcome of the poly in any given situation. They may have been used that way on your situation but that isn't always the case on a situations.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There is no desired/required response. There is only the subject's physiological reaction upon giving a response that suggests whether or not the response is wholly truthful. The poly operator is not trying to find answers, just determining where there might be deception.


----------



## WalterWhite420

bandit.45 said:


> I doubt this highly. She may be bucking the odds on the lie detector, but rarely does a fledgling cheater bring an AP into the home and into the marital bed the first time. Most first timers are scared to death of discovery...hence motels, weekends away with the girlfriends, etc.
> 
> Also the laws of probability argue against it...that you just happened to get home at the *one first time * she was banging this guy, and the planets aligned perfectly to ensure that you would get home at just the right time to catch them in the middle of the act... all through serendipity?


But I think you're assuming here that she planned it...if she didn't (which she claims under penalty of perjury - i.e. polygraph, which she believes in)...then...


----------



## Squeakr

3putt said:


> But what you're failing to see is the difference between what you believe to be true and what we _*know*_ to be true about the effectiveness of a poly of THIS board for THESE purposes. Like I said last night, we're not talking about interrogating a bunch of serial rapists, murderers or anything of that sort. We're talking about getting as much truth as we can from a wayward mindset for the benefit of the BS. It's up to them to decide if it's enough.
> 
> I wouldn't argue with you about the complete accuracy of a poly at all. But it's been *proven* over and over again to be quite reliable for the situations that we deal with here.
> 
> Is it completely infallible here, or anywhere else for that matter? Of course not....but I'll go with the numbers that support my stance for what we do here, _and here only_.


So what do we "know" that the poly is revealing, that a cheater lied? I don't need a poly to tell me that my BW is a serial cheater and liar. I have the proof of that on my own and a yes or no answer to whether she cheated with someone else won't make it somehow any worse than what it already is. At least that is my take on the situation. ONS or multiple time A it is still cheating and one isn't any worse to me than the other really. There all equally bad. As it is the deception and disrespect that hurts the most. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Squeakr

Philat said:


> There is no desired/required response. There is only the subject's physiological reaction upon giving a response that suggests whether or not the response is wholly truthful. The poly operator is not trying to find answers, just determining where there might be deception.


And that would be a desired response. Deception or not. They don't honestly care about the "answer" just the "response" which is what I have been saying all along.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## dogman

happyman64 said:


> Dogman
> 
> I don't want to speak for Walter but if my wife cheated on me and I ignored her pleas, emails and phone calls for months.
> 
> While I might not call that breaking her I would certainly call that giving her plenty of time to reflect on her misdeeds.
> 
> The fact is that Carrie wants Walter.
> 
> We rarely see the WS go back to wanting their BS so quickly.
> 
> But then again we rarely see the BS kick butt and take names later these days.
> 
> And while Walter definitely had Carrie on a pedestal before the Affair I would say that Walters eyes are pretty open now.
> 
> And Walter please do not try to ask Carrie 200 questions while hooked up to a lie detector.
> 
> That is like waterboarding her.
> 
> I will now stop talking for Walter.
> 
> HM


Hey HP, I agree. But what I meant and what I didn't say clearly was that she may need to be broken to admit certain things TO HERSELF. I know that I was at a truly broken place before I could actually put down my invisible back I was carrying and make true progress with my issues.

I don't doubt her wanting WW, I was looking further into the future of their relationship. When this is far behind them her reason for sleeping with the OM may not be.


----------



## Philat

Squeakr said:


> And that would be a desired response. Deception or not. They don't honestly care about the "answer" just the "response" which is what I have been saying all along.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry, you lost me. Not that it matters.


----------



## krismimo

WalterWhite420 said:


> But I think you're assuming here that she planned it...if she didn't (which she claims under penalty of perjury - i.e. polygraph, which she believes in)...then...


I don't think Bandit is saying that. I don't think it was planned and when I read this how I interpret this is subconsciously she was already slipping into dangerous territory. 

Now in regards to the OM passing I won't say your right or wrong in how you feel. In fact you are not wrong for how you feel so don't apologize Walter. Here is the tricky thing I know deep down it feels like his passing there is a sense of relief because it does take two we all know that, but again the person you made vows with is the one that betrayed you. Was I mad at the other women my ex was with? Hell yeah especially those women that knew about us. But I was more pissed off at my partner for getting involved and half the time aggressively seeking out these women. You have every right to feel that sense of relief but also keep in perspective of who truly betrayed you, and trust me I know that sounds completely redundant because of what you are going through. Those women were not the ones that decided to commit to me, no more than your wife took her vows with you.


----------



## 3putt

Squeakr said:


> *So what do we "know" that the poly is revealing*, that a cheater lied? I don't need a poly to tell me that my BW is a serial cheater and liar. I have the proof of that on my own and a yes or no answer to whether she cheated with someone else won't make it somehow any worse than what it already is. At least that is my take on the situation. ONS or multiple time A it is still cheating and one isn't any worse to me than the other really. There all equally bad.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Confirmation or denial of details to the satisfaction of the betrayed to make a decision on whether or not to attempt recovery.

That's all. The key component here is to the betrayed's satisfaction. If it's still not enough, then that's his choice to make.....not ours. If you can come up with a better way to get the most truth you can, hey, I'm all ears.

All we have is what we have.

As far as ONS or a year long affair, I totally agree. That's me as well. But it's not about us, is it?


----------



## the guy

Hope your old lady isn't looking up "how to beat a polygraph"...

Seriously I've been here longer then dirt and I remember a couple of threads were the polygraph really helped get past this crap and move on to healing.

I think once you can show your old lady the grace of forgiveness then it will be up to her to affair proof the rest of this marriage.

I'm almost 4 years since d-day and and once you can truly forgive your in front of the battle. What's scary is if your chick has the same commitment to affair proof the M as you do in having the grace to forgive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Squeakr

Philat said:


> Sorry, you lost me. Not that it matters.


It is that people think the poly is for getting the truth, which to them means the truthful answers, but it is all about getting the response (was the person trying to hide or cover something up, or to not be truthful and not to find out the exact number of people they slept with). They aren't really designed that way. Hence the yes/ no questioning. So if ones intent was to find out if this was the first time they cheated, they might not get any closer as the way the answer is given could be explained away depending on one's definition of cheating (some don't think an EA is cheating). If you are asked have you ever stolen anything, if you answered no because you didn't believe you ever had and your response showed truth, it doesn't mean you never have (as some don't view taking office supplies home from work as stealing but may have done it repeatedly). So did they lie, was the test wrong, or how do these anomalies get read on the test as the response would show truthfulness no matter whether the answer was correct or not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Squeakr

3putt said:


> Confirmation or denial of details to the satisfaction of the betrayed to make a decision on whether or not to attempt recovery.
> 
> That's all. The key component here is to the betrayed's satisfaction. If it's still not enough, then that's his choice to make.....not ours. If you can come up with a better way to get the most truth you can, hey, I'm all ears.
> 
> All we have is what we have.
> 
> As far as ONS or a year long affair, I totally agree. That's me as well. But it's not about us, is it?


Like I stated earlier these are my views and beliefs and I am not trying to sway anyone. Walter asked me why I thought the way I did and I was explaining my theories and beliefs. I am sorry if you saw me as trying to persuade him otherwise as that was not the intent but rather to explain my position. I have no problem letting someone behave the way they want if they truly believe it is the best in their situation and is not hurting someone else while doing it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## illwill

happyman64 said:


> Dogman
> 
> I don't want to speak for Walter but if my wife cheated on me and I ignored her pleas, emails and phone calls for months.
> 
> While I might not call that breaking her I would certainly call that giving her plenty of time to reflect on her misdeeds.
> 
> The fact is that Carrie wants Walter.
> 
> We rarely see the WS go back to wanting their BS so quickly.
> 
> But then again we rarely see the BS kick butt and take names later these days.
> 
> And while Walter definitely had Carrie on a pedestal before the Affair I would say that Walters eyes are pretty open now.
> 
> And Walter please do not try to ask Carrie 200 questions while hooked up to a lie detector.
> 
> That is like waterboarding her.
> 
> I will now stop talking for Walter.
> 
> HM


I agree that 200 questions is a bit much. It could do more damage than good.

And we often see waywards who want thier spouses back on dday. However we rarely see waywards who TRULY want thier spouses back. 

We get tons of lip service. Action is key.


----------



## WalterWhite420

OK, here's some comic relief for the cynics (if any) in here...but it's also a great and wonderful possibility for those of you who have a good sexy squeeze...

During our first joint counciling session (yesterday), our MC gave us a “homework” exercise to do before our next session. Keep in mind that this MC is known for somewhat unorthodox methods (and damn great results). My wife called almost all of her references, and they pretty much all said (paraphrasing) “shut up, listen to her, do exactly what she says, and you’ll thank me later”.

So here’s the exercise. Our MC instructed us to prepare a simple meal, but one that required fork/knife/spoon to eat. She instructed us to plan the dinner together, go out together and buy all the ingredients, prepare the dinner together, and then do the following:

Sit down in dining chairs (no table), facing one another, really close together, knees intermingled, with our dinner trays in our laps. And then proceed to eat dinner, feeding one another from our own plates. In other words, I was to use the food in my plate to feed Carrie, and Carrie was to use the food in her plate to feed me. Simultaneously. Tonight, we picked an “easy to eat” meal of t-bones and baked potatoes. As the MC said it would, it seemed silly and was definitely awkward. But it was also fun, and surprisingly *sensual*. I enjoyed feeding Carrie. And Carrie enjoyed feeding me. We started awkwardly, but got more proficient as we continued. We laughed when we made mistakes. But we eventually got going well enough that we talked about things unrelated to the meal. And we finger-fed one another grapes after the meal (our idea).

I’m guessing the MC intended this as an exercise in meeting one another’s needs. But maybe more importantly, an exercise in each of us trusting and allowing the other to meet our own needs.

Make fun if you must, but the sex afterwards was quite different than the sex we've been having the past couple of weeks. The past couple of weeks included nothing but session after session of hot makeup sex. But after dinner tonight, it was slower, more looking into one other's eyes, more cerebral, more sensual, more talking, more into one another. Quite a refreshing change up. Very different, but just as satisfying if not more.

We’re doing this exercise again tomorrow night, by mutual choice.


----------



## sammy3

WalterWhite420 said:


> During that time after DDay, I was smoking pot 4-5 times per day. I was drinking a bottle of wine every night. I was sleep-deprived. And always angry as hell.
> 
> The pot dulled my memory and perception. When we talked, I shot questions at her fast, and many times wouldn’t let her answer fully before I jumped to a conclusion or hurled an accusation. Then I would get so mad and just walk away. The next morning I couldn’t remember half of what we even talked about, and the parts I did remember had to have been skewed to some point. I was in no mental condition to be talking about those things. So I withdrew. Honestly, I probably should have been admitted to a psych ward.



Oh, I know this experience only to well...this can be part of the roller coaster the behavior of the ww puts us on. My first year out was nothing but shock, dealing w WTF, not even thinking of R. I wish I had a movie camera following me. Reality TV would have love me. I had what use to be called in the old days, a mental breakdown. I stopped functioning as a human being for a looooong time. 

There is so much more to come you cant even imagine. And this isnt said trying to be negative at all in your attempts towards R. 

It's just this whole mess is nothing but pure hell and maybe back, if, if your lucky.... Some people are never whole again. 

There's only one path to intimacy. It runs runs right through the shared power in the realationship. You were balanced when you came together. You shared that power through your love, hopes, dreams, faithfulness, the marriage to each other, & in many other ways. This what helps couples withstand, stress, changes, uncertaintly, etc. that come along, but your relationship is now unbalanced. ((not meaning sexually)). 


Because of your selfishness, your disrespect of Walter, your callous thinking and actions, your own sexual desires to be fvcked or to fvck another man, you've managed to take what was a good happy married that had nothing but goodwill and future in it and really do a number it and Walter. Lucky you, you dont have to change so much, just stay off of other men.. 

And who knows what damage might have been created w the time away from each other. 

I ask you, if you walked in on Walter w him going to town on another women's pu**y, non stop, how the fvck do you think you would feel ???? I know, let me say, "I'ld feel horrible, awful."

I hope you both make it through this, I really do, because this road that you're starting on, isnt fun. 

**Sorry Walter, 420

~sammy


----------



## WalterWhite420

sammy3 said:


> Oh, I know this experience only to well...this can be part of the roller coaster the behavior of the ww puts us on. My first year out was nothing but shock, dealing w WTF, not even thinking of R. I wish I had a movie camera following me. Reality TV would have love me. I had what use to be called in the old days, a mental breakdown. I stopped functioning as a human being for a looooong time.
> 
> There is so much more to come you cant even imagine. And this isnt said trying to be negative at all in your attempts towards R.
> 
> It's just this whole mess is nothing but pure hell and maybe back, if, if your lucky.... Some people are never whole again.
> 
> There's only one path to intimacy. It runs runs right through the shared power in the realationship. You were balanced when you came together. You shared that power through your love, hopes, dreams, faithfulness, the marriage to each other, & in many other ways. This what helps couples withstand, stress, changes, uncertaintly, etc. that come along, but your relationship is now unbalanced. ((not meaning sexually)).
> 
> 
> Because of your selfishness, your disrespect of Walter, your callous thinking and actions, your own sexual desires to be fvcked or to fvck another man, you've managed to take what was a good happy married that had nothing but goodwill and future in it and really do a number it and Walter. Lucky you, you dont have to change so much, just stay off of other men..
> 
> And who knows what damage might have been created w the time away from each other.
> 
> I ask you, if you walked in on Walter w him going to town on another women's pu**y, non stop, how the fvck do you think you would feel ???? I know, let me say, "I'ld feel horrible, awful."
> 
> I hope you both make it through this, I really do, because this road that you're starting on, isnt fun.
> 
> **Sorry Walter, 420
> 
> ~sammy


Thank you Sammy. Thank you for a great heart-felt post.


----------



## raven3321

WalterWhite420 said:


> OK, here's some comic relief for the cynics (if any) in here...but it's also a great and wonderful possibility for those of you who have a good sexy squeeze...
> 
> During our first joint counciling session (yesterday), our MC gave us a “homework” exercise to do before our next session. Keep in mind that this MC is known for somewhat unorthodox methods (and damn great results). My wife called almost all of her references, and they pretty much all said (paraphrasing) “shut up, listen to her, do exactly what she says, and you’ll thank me later”.
> 
> So here’s the exercise. Our MC instructed us to prepare a simple meal, but one that required fork/knife/spoon to eat. She instructed us to plan the dinner together, go out together and buy all the ingredients, prepare the dinner together, and then do the following:
> 
> Sit down in dining chairs (no table), facing one another, really close together, knees intermingled, with our dinner trays in our laps. And then proceed to eat dinner, feeding one another from our own plates. In other words, I was to use the food in my plate to feed Carrie, and Carrie was to use the food in her plate to feed me. Simultaneously. Tonight, we picked an “easy to eat” meal of t-bones and baked potatoes. As the MC said it would, it seemed silly and was definitely awkward. But it was also fun, and surprisingly *sensual*. I enjoyed feeding Carrie. And Carrie enjoyed feeding me. We started awkwardly, but got more proficient as we continued. We laughed when we made mistakes. But we eventually got going well enough that we talked about things unrelated to the meal. And we finger-fed one another grapes after the meal (our idea).
> 
> I’m guessing the MC intended this as an exercise in meeting one another’s needs. But maybe more importantly, an exercise in each of us trusting and allowing the other to meet our own needs.
> 
> Make fun if you must, but the sex afterwards was quite different than the sex we've been having the past couple of weeks. The past couple of weeks included nothing but session after session of hot makeup sex. But after dinner tonight, it was slower, more looking into one other's eyes, more cerebral, more sensual, more talking, more into one another. Quite a refreshing change up. Very different, but just as satisfying if not more.
> 
> We’re doing this exercise again tomorrow night, by mutual choice.


OK Dude. This post was excellent. I'm writing this one down for posterity. That exercise sounds soooo sensual and fun. In fact, it may be a good idea to continue to post your "homework". It may just help others if they try some of the things mentioned. My marriage is too far gone as we're legally separating on our way to D. But maybe with someone in the future.........


----------



## bravenewworld

I remember watching those Maury Povich shows where he would polygraph cheating spouses and honestly - I never understood it. If you spouse is so untrustworthy you have to give them a lie detector test, the most fundamental part of the relationship is already over. I don't want someone I have to polygraph having access to my bank account or deciding whether or not to pull the plug if I'm in a coma. Just sayin'

Also, polygraphs truly are junk science. Almost every high-ranking person in security knows this but they keep perpetuating the myth in order to intimidate people they interrogate:

Penn & Teller: Bull****! - Lie Detectors

I see a lot of talk on how beautiful your wife is, but that is so irrelevant to your situation I find it off putting. Good looks are reasons to date and have sex with people, not enter into binding contracts with them. 

“It is amazing how complete is the delusion that beauty is goodness.” - Tolstoy 

"No matter how plain a woman may be, if truth and honesty are written across her face, she will be beautiful.” -Eleanor Roosevelt 

Like your marriage counselor I am also an unorthodox person and one of my suggestions would be to consider an open marriage but the fact you kicked the crap out of the OM and are glad he's dead tells me that is probably not something you'd be in to.


----------



## manfromlamancha

WalterWhite420 said:


> The OM died in a car accident 2 months ago. I only wish I could have been there to watch his heart stop beating and have done NOTHING to save him.
> 
> Much like Walter White did for Jane (Jesse's girlfriend).


Whoa! WTF? Might have mentioned this in your opening post?!? Hmmm....


----------



## dogman

WalterWhite420 said:


> Yes, a stroke of luck...IMHO...forgive me for being honest.
> 
> The only better outcome would have been if I could have choked the very life out of him myself, slowly, over several minutes, while he suffered in agony.
> 
> Again, forgive me for being honest.


This is a stroke of luck for your wife. Now the truth is whatever she says it is. No one to contradict her.


----------



## cool12

WalterWhite420 said:


> Yes, a stroke of luck...IMHO...forgive me for being honest.
> 
> The only better outcome would have been if I could have choked the very life out of him myself, slowly, over several minutes, while he suffered in agony.
> 
> Again, forgive me for being honest.


no need to apologize. lucky for your wife you want to R with her and not hurt her the way you want to hurt the man that made zero commitment to you.

i think carrie is right, losing you is not going to happen. from where i sit it seems she knows exactly how to get herself out of this and still keep you fawning all over her. please know that i'm not judging you in any way, i just think she has the upper hand here, which i find interesting.


----------



## Philat

Squeakr said:


> *It is that people think the poly is for getting the truth, which to them means the truthful answers, but it is all about getting the response (was the person trying to hide or cover something up, or to not be truthful and not to find out the exact number of people they slept with).* They aren't really designed that way. Hence the yes/ no questioning. So if ones intent was to find out if this was the first time they cheated, they might not get any closer as the way the answer is given could be explained away depending on one's definition of cheating (some don't think an EA is cheating). If you are asked have you ever stolen anything, if you answered no because you didn't believe you ever had and your response showed truth, it doesn't mean you never have (as some don't view taking office supplies home from work as stealing but may have done it repeatedly). So did they lie, was the test wrong, or how do these anomalies get read on the test as the response would show truthfulness no matter whether the answer was correct or not.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh. Well, anyone who has had any experience with the polygraph knows it is not a "truth detector." This is a self-evident fact for those of us who have lived with it. You seem to be belaboring the obvious, but if the perception is out there that the machine itself will find the truth then maybe it needs to be said.


----------



## CouldItBeSo

WalterWhite420 said:


> But I think you're assuming here that she planned it...if she didn't (which she claims under penalty of perjury - i.e. polygraph, which she believes in)...then...


I don't think you can ask this type of questions in a polygraph. I believe they must be fact based yes/no questions, like "did you have sexual intercourse with him more than once?"


----------



## adriana

sammy3 said:


> There's only one path to intimacy. It runs runs right through the shared power in the realationship. You were balanced when you came together. You shared that power through your love, hopes, dreams, faithfulness, the marriage to each other, & in many other ways. This what helps couples withstand, stress, changes, uncertaintly, etc. that come along....



That's beautifully said, Sammy.


----------



## samdew9

WalterWhite420 said:


> The OM died in a car accident 2 months ago. I only wish I could have been there to watch his heart stop beating and have done NOTHING to save him.
> 
> Much like Walter White did for Jane (Jesse's girlfriend).


So he died over a month before this post started????


----------



## Squeakr

Philat said:


> Oh. Well, anyone who has had any experience with the polygraph knows it is not a "truth detector." This is a self-evident fact for those of us who have lived with it. You seem to be belaboring the obvious, but if the perception is out there that the machine itself will find the truth then maybe it needs to be said.


I agree with your statements. The problem is that with all the crime shows and Hollywood taking artistic license, the public is duped into thinking that what they see on TV is the truth about things and how they truly work. Most programs show the poly hooked up, and the suspect being intimidated and questioned for hours, with the examiner looming in their face that they "are lying and should tell the truth now", when in reality that is as far from the way things work as one could imagine (and I think Hollywood does this sometimes to purposely mislead the public on things to still keep us in the dark on how the system really works).

It is evident from this thread that people still think and believe this way. Walter had a list of 200 questions that he wants answered, of which I would bet less than 10% are poly askable, and of that acceptable percentage, the examiner will word them differently to be able to elicit and verify the responses. Doesn't make the poly any less of a useable tool in my mind, just not one that would meet my needs or give me a warm and fuzzy in the end, as I truly expect that it would reveal deception on my BW's part. Also she can compartmentalize so much, I am not sure a response may be elicited by her to some of the pending questions I have (mental health issues are rampant in her family, I found this out too late, but could cause the poly to be interpreted differently for her due to this.)


----------



## adriana

cool12 said:


> i think carrie is right, losing you is not going to happen. from where i sit it seems she knows exactly how to get herself out of this and still keep you fawning all over her. please know that i'm not judging you in any way, i just think she has the upper hand here, which i find interesting.


I have been getting the same impression since Carrie started posting here. She knows how to play this game. But it isn't such a bad thing considering that they both want to stay together. At least for now.


----------



## convert

Walter, did the OM passing away have any bearing on deciding to R?

I mean I can see where it would help

Was he hit by a bus? I am sorry that was bad


----------



## Tall Average Guy

WalterWhite420 said:


> But I think you're assuming here that she planned it...if she didn't (which she claims under penalty of perjury - i.e. polygraph, which she believes in)...then...


What other steps are you taking to verify what she says? What about her phone records?


----------



## bravenewworld

Philat said:


> Oh. Well, anyone who has had any experience with the polygraph knows it is not a "truth detector." This is a self-evident fact for those of us who have lived with it. You seem to be belaboring the obvious, but if the perception is out there that the machine itself will find the truth then maybe it needs to be said.


The machine can only measure how nervous you "may" be. Nervousness and anxiety levels are not sure fire indicators for truth/deception. 

The only thing that works about the machine is if the examiner is able to intimidate the subject into confessing. Then you have to rely on the investigator's interpretation of what exactly that confessions entails. It's like a really bad, expensive game of telephone. 

It's not like a DNA test where the results have any scientific merit. Might as well take your spouse to a psychic and measure their pulse/palm sweat while they lay out the tarot cards and ask probing question.


----------



## WalterWhite420

Tall Average Guy said:


> What other steps are you taking to verify what she says? What about her phone records?


I checked all the email and phone records I could. Every artifact I could check turned out to be on the up and up.


----------



## WalterWhite420

convert said:


> Walter, did the OM passing away have any bearing on deciding to R?
> 
> I mean I can see where it would help
> 
> Was he hit by a bus? I am sorry that was bad


No, I don't think his passing had any bearing on my decision to R. Carrie had been pursuing me to R every since our initial separation just after DDay. She sent a NC letter and took out a restraining order against the OM. This was long before his death.

According to the news story I read, he ran a redlight and got-t-boned by a big van.


----------



## Mzflower

WalterWhite420 said:


> I think if she had not been caught, she would still be doing him today. Which strengthens my resolve to refuse her pleadings to R.


----------



## WalterWhite420

Both Carrie and I today informed our work bosses that we’re taking an immediate leave of absence for several months. In my case, it’s no problem. I just finished a project, and my immediate departure puts no one in a bind. But in Carrie’s case, she's right in the middle of an important project. And she’s the project lead. And her bosses were pretty upset that she wants to just up and walk away. They got downright ugly with her, so she told them (literally) to "f**k off". And she resigned. She doesn’t bluff. And she can’t be bluffed. It’s easy to admire her strength and resolve.

So Carrie is walking away from a good career, where she’s been successful and respected. And in doing so she’s leaving a very sweet project-completion bonus on the table. This was all her idea so that we could just concentrate on one another and our marriage.

Carrie is one of the very, very few people I've ever met that can, to a large extent, shape her own (and our) future. Many people are controlled by the flow of life around them. But Carrie, by and large, controls the flow of life around her (us).

It feels good to watch her show so much determination to rebuild our marriage. She’s working very hard. And it’s encouraging because when she sets her mind to achieve a certain outcome, she rarely misses the mark.

The jury is still long out, but when this is all over, Carrie's going to make somebody a great and wonderful wife. I hope it's me.


----------



## WalterWhite420

Mzflower said:


>


That was written near my original post, I believe, before I was able to admit to myself that most of my perception of the affair was built on our early attempt at R, when I was always high and drunk or both. A time that is still very hazy in my mind, when I was constantly in "attack and accuse" mode. I never really gave her a chance to speak while I really listened.

Let this be an example of why people should not turn to drugs or alcohol when they're faced with a situation like this. The situation skews your feelings and perception enough as it is, and the drugs and alcohol make it 5 times worse.

So I'm giving the polygraph a chance to help me build trust in a more correct version of what really happened.

This woman made a huge mistake, but if she's really telling the truth now, then the A was not near as bad as I thought. Bad, but not near as bad.


----------



## CouldItBeSo

WalterWhite420 said:


> The OM died in a car accident 2 months ago. I only wish I could have been there to watch his heart stop beating and have done NOTHING to save him.
> 
> Much like Walter White did for Jane (Jesse's girlfriend).


OK I missed this. I don't know if Carrie is the real name of your wife but I can't help this brings the movie in my mind where the main character, Carrie, had telekinetic powers.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

WalterWhite420 said:


> I checked all the email and phone records I could. Every artifact I could check turned out to be on the up and up.


Did you get her phone records? Past calls and texts for the last year?


----------



## WalterWhite420

raven3321 said:


> OK Dude. This post was excellent. I'm writing this one down for posterity. That exercise sounds soooo sensual and fun. In fact, it may be a good idea to continue to post your "homework". It may just help others if they try some of the things mentioned. My marriage is too far gone as we're legally separating on our way to D. But maybe with someone in the future.........


Give it a try sometime raven. I think you'll like it.


----------



## WalterWhite420

CouldItBeSo said:


> OK I missed this. I don't know if Carrie is the real name of your wife but I can't help this brings the movie in my mind where the main character, Carrie, had telekinetic powers.


That's my Carrie (her real name). Telekinetic powers and all. 

The movie you're referring to is one of my favorites. "Carrie", made in 1976, based upon a book by Stephen King.


----------



## bandit.45

WalterWhite420 said:


> That was written near my original post, I believe, before I was able to admit to myself that most of my perception of the affair was built on our early attempt at R, when I was always high and drunk or both. A time that is still very hazy in my mind, when I was constantly in "attack and accuse" mode. I never really gave her a chance to speak while I really listened.
> 
> So I'm giving the polygraph a chance to help me build trust in a more correct version of what really happened.
> 
> *This woman made a huge mistake*, but if she's really telling the truth now, then the A was not near as bad as I thought. Bad, but not near as bad.


No, she made a huge decision....

To gamble the marriage, and she lost. But it looks like you are willing to foot her stake, so she's back in the game.


----------



## Squeakr

WalterWhite420 said:


> That's my Carrie (her real name). Telekinetic powers and all.
> 
> The movie you're referring to is one of my favorites. "Carrie", made in 1976, based upon a book by Stephen King.


It was remade in 2013 as well. I haven't seen it so can't comment on it being better, worse, or close to the same as the original.


----------



## WalterWhite420

Tall Average Guy said:


> Did you get her phone records? Past calls and texts for the last year?


Yes, and emails back farther than that.

There was a period during that time that we went "paperless" in our cell phone records. But Carrie recently obtained copies of the records during that time (complete records) and they checked out fine.


----------



## WalterWhite420

Squeakr said:


> It was remade in 2013 as well. I haven't seen it so can't comment on it being better, worse, or close to the same as the original.


Yes, starring Julianne Moore, one of my favorite actresses. I haven't heard the reviews yet. I'd like to see it though.


----------



## raven3321

WalterWhite420 said:


> No, I don't think his passing had any bearing on my decision to R. Carrie had been pursuing me to R every since our initial separation just after DDay. She sent a NC letter and took out a restraining order against the OM. This was long before his death.
> 
> According to the news story I read, he ran a redlight and got-t-boned by a big van.


Wow...just wow. As much as I don't like him, I really hope he asked God to forgive him before he left this earth. Else the title of your thread takes on a whole new meaning.


----------



## WalterWhite420

bandit.45 said:


> No, she made a huge decision....
> 
> To gamble the marriage, and she lost. But it looks like you are willing to foot her stake, so she's back in the game.


Yes, she made a huge decision. We're working through that now.

I'm willing to give her another chance. I tried my hardest not to, for months, but deep inside I wanted to. So she's getting a chance.

It's a process, I know, and I know I've got a lot of ups and downs ahead. But if anybody is worth a second chance, it's her.

Yes I adore her. But she will not get a 3rd chance.


----------



## WalterWhite420

raven3321 said:


> Wow...just wow. As much as I don't like him, I really hope he asked God to forgive him before he left this earth. Else the title of your thread takes on a whole new meaning.


I kinda hope he forgot to ask... 

Just joking...maybe...


----------



## CouldItBeSo

WalterWhite420 said:


> That's my Carrie (her real name). Telekinetic powers and all.
> 
> The movie you're referring to is one of my favorites. "Carrie", made in 1976, based upon a book by Stephen King.


I believe she threw some cars around in the movie...


----------



## Squeakr

WalterWhite420 said:


> Yes, she made a huge decision. We're working through that now.
> 
> I'm willing to give her another chance. I tried my hardest not to, for months, but deep inside I wanted to. So she's getting a chance.
> 
> It's a process, I know, and I know I've got a lot of ups and downs ahead. But if anybody is worth a second chance, it's her.
> 
> Yes I adore her. But she will not get a 3rd chance.


I can tell this from all your writings. You need to make sure that she reciprocates the feeling. From here on out the decisions need to be mutual ones and not by her plan. 

Yes, she has a decent plan to make it work, but she has it mapped out and it is to her liking and agreement. You need to have a say in it as well. Even though you both taking time to dedicate to the marriage is great, is it what you wanted? She suggested it, and you got on board, but to many this would be asking them to put a sign of joy and worth in their life (their job) on the sidelines for the happiness of someone else. This could be something that comes back to bite you later, if you are one that lives for and loves their work, as well as the rest of their life (as this could leave a hole in your current lifestyle that leaves you lost and longing). 

Curious, did you discuss the work hiatus with the MC and see what their thoughts regarding the matter were?


----------



## bfree

Walt, I hope long term she doesn't have any resentment about leaving a job she loved. I know you didn't ask her to but sometimes people tend to blame the blameless once the emotional immediacy wears off.


----------



## Carrie420

bfree said:


> Walt, I hope long term she doesn't have any resentment about leaving a job she loved. I know you didn't ask her to but sometimes people tend to blame the blameless once the emotional immediacy wears off.


There will be no resentment. I burned a lot of bridges today with my bosses, but my career is nothing compared to another chance with Jack. Both our individual ICs and our MC thought it was a great idea.


----------



## afterall

Walter, I don't post very much. I do read what others post here and what they go through and how they moved on. My wife cheated on me with my best friend for 4 years. From 1996 to 2000. When we returned from our Honeymoon 1996. He was standing right there as if he was waiting for us to come home. 

I rolled down my window to say HI and he confessed everything and asked her to choose between the both of us. She selected him. We just got back from our Honeymoon. I didn't catch her in the act with him. I didn't have to. The mind movies were there and since I knew her naked and seen him naked, that was enough for me. 

As the day went on, she did end up staying with me but didn't really give him up. I knew of the relationship in 1996 and thought it ended in 1996. From what she said, the sex part of it was only a few months before we were married and only happened twice after we were married. I didn't know that it continued for 4 years. I learned new things in April 2013 which set off so many triggers and emotions that I kept bottled up. 

We worked through it. We both cried. We both healed. I wanted to leave several times. I never really asked questions but I did and wished that I asked them back in 2000 but here we are in 2013. We are still married. We are very happy and have tons of kids with one on the way. I won't lie to you. It still hurts till this very day. 

But there are pros and cons to all of this. For me I felt as if I did leave. I would be missing a part of me. I've been with this woman since I was 15 and now I'm 40 going on 41. I love her very much and we both learned from this can came out stronger. 

So R is very possible but its going to be hard. You will never forget and **** will piss you off every now and then but when that happens, ask her to hold you. Make love to you. Think about how much more pain you would be in if she wasn't there. 

R isn't for everyone but for me I'm glad I did and if things go as planned. I'm sure in the end you will be glad as well.


----------



## convert

wow Carrie sounds serious to quit a good job to work on the marriage. That shows a lot of commitment to the Reconciliation 

will she be able to job easy enough in the future?

couldn't have stayed working and still work on the marriage, I know it will make it easier but just to quit. now I sound like my parents.


----------



## raven3321

Carrie420 said:


> There will be no resentment. I burned a lot of bridges today with my bosses, but my career is nothing compared to another chance with Jack. Both our individual ICs and our MC thought it was a great idea.


Kudos Carrie. Most WS when they show true remorse, are asked to quit their jobs if the OM was a co-worker. You went above and beyond that even though you didn't have to (meaning the OM's no longer relevent as a factor in staying at the job) It's just truly refreshing to see dedication as strong as yours.

Question: Just what does one do for 4 months of not working to work on the marriage as you say? I mean besides Tantra? I don't think I could be around someone that much for that long no matter how much I loved them.


----------



## Carrie420

raven3321 said:


> Kudos Carrie. Most WS when they show true remorse, are asked to quit their jobs if the OM was a co-worker. You went above and beyond that even though you didn't have to (meaning the OM's no longer relevent as a factor in staying at the job) It's just truly refreshing to see dedication as strong as yours.
> 
> Question: Just what does one do for 4 months of not working to work on the marriage as you say? I mean besides Tantra? I don't think I could be around someone that much for that long no matter how much I loved them.


Jack and I have always loved being together. We make wine and grow our own marijuana. We're SERIOUSLY considering starting our own business in a few months; breeding and creating newer and better medical marijuana strains, or opening up our own medical marijuana dispensary.

Will Jack and I tire of being around one another so much now that we're not working? We're having fun trying to find out.


----------



## Carrie420

raven3321 said:


> Kudos Carrie. Most WS when they show true remorse, are asked to quit their jobs if the OM was a co-worker. You went above and beyond that even though you didn't have to (meaning the OM's no longer relevent as a factor in staying at the job) It's just truly refreshing to see dedication as strong as yours.
> 
> Question: Just what does one do for 4 months of not working to work on the marriage as you say? I mean besides Tantra? I don't think I could be around someone that much for that long no matter how much I loved them.





convert said:


> wow Carrie sounds serious to quit a good job to work on the marriage. That shows a lot of commitment to the Reconciliation
> 
> will she be able to job easy enough in the future?
> 
> couldn't have stayed working and still work on the marriage, I know it will make it easier but just to quit. now I sound like my parents.


Jack and I have worked so hard for so long. Our undergraduate degrees were time-consuming and difficult. Then we married and Jack went to get his ph.D in Biochemistry while I went to medical school. We graduated at the same time, but I found in medical school that I didn't want to deal with patients on a daily basis; I liked lab work much better. So I never did my residency to become a licensed physician. Instead, I got a job as a biochemist. And since then, Jack and I have worked hard and have been wise with money. We always envisioned a time when we could retire early. It's here, and couldn't have come at a better time for us.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: My Living Hell*



Carrie420 said:


> There will be no resentment. I burned a lot of bridges today with my bosses, but my career is nothing compared to another chance with Jack. Both our individual ICs and our MC thought it was a great idea.


Carrie, I hope that is the case and remains so. Feelings are a funny thing. What you feel today is no doubt going to be quite different from what you will feel in the future. This sacrifice will go a long way toward showing with actions that you are remorseful and demonstrate your willingness to put your relationship first. I wish you all the best.


----------



## Carrie420

bfree said:


> Carrie, I hope that is the case and remains so. Feelings are a funny thing. What you feel today is no doubt going to be quite different from what you will feel in the future. This sacrifice will go a long way toward showing with actions that you are remorseful and demonstrate your willingness to put your relationship first. I wish you all the best.


Thank you. Your well wishes are very appreciated. 

I'm off to IC now. Have a great day all.


----------



## adriana

Carrie420 said:


> We make wine and grow our own marijuana. We're SERIOUSLY considering starting our own business in a few months; breeding and creating newer and better medical marijuana strains, or opening up our own medical marijuana dispensary.



Sounds hilarious but let me know if you two are looking for investors. :smthumbup:


----------



## illwill

Does Carrie have impulse control issues? The job thing was odd for a pro to do. Quitting like that does get around town.


----------



## illwill

The thread is interesting.


----------



## kristin2349

illwill said:


> Does Carrie have impulse control issues? The job thing was odd for a pro to do. Quitting like that does get around town.


Her version of the series of unfortunate choices that led her and BH to this site would point to yes. 

If her H, IC and MC and most importantly her BANK allow it, must be a sound choice.


----------



## happy as a clam

Walter (Jack) or Carrie...

Do either of you think it's possible that OM's accident was really a suicide? I mean, it would have been much more responsible to just plow into a tree and not involve another vehicle/driver, but did anyone know his state of mind at the time?

Don't meant to be macabre... it just seems like suicide or really bad karma for him.

P.S. I'm rooting for both of you to make this R work! Your love seems much too big to let go of...


----------



## bandit.45

Carrie420 said:


> Jack and I have always loved being together. We make wine and grow our own marijuana. We're SERIOUSLY considering starting our own business in a few months; breeding and creating newer and *better medical marijuana strains, or opening up our own medical marijuana dispensary.*Will Jack and I tire of being around one another so much now that we're not working? We're having fun trying to find out.


*Delta-3 TetraHydraCannabinoid, Inc.* 

Carrie you didn't answer my question: How do you feel about Jack having had sex with another woman on New Years? 

(Don't answer for her Walter).


----------



## EI

bandit.45 said:


> Carrie you didn't answer my question: Are you pissed Jack banged another gal on New Years?
> 
> (Don't answer for her Walter).


BANDIT, Was THAT necessary? :-/
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

EI said:


> BANDIT, Was THAT necessary? :-/
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why not? I want to know if she felt it was deserved. I want to know her mindset. I think it is a very precient question. 

Okay, I will go back and reword.


----------



## sandc

EI said:


> BANDIT, Was THAT necessary? :-/
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


EI ! Finally some class in this joint. (no pun intended Walter)


----------



## bandit.45

sandc said:


> EI ! Finally some class in this joint. (no pun intended Walter)


You're about to get a nasty PM brother. Just keep it up.


----------



## sandc

bandit.45 said:


> You're about to get a nasty PM brother. Just keep it up.


:lol:

Walter, this man needs a blunt. Oh wait, Bandit is blunt enough already.

Sorry, man, I'm at work and bored spliff, er, stiff.


----------



## happyman64

WalterWhite420 said:


> The OM died in a car accident 2 months ago. I only wish I could have been there to watch his heart stop beating and have done NOTHING to save him.
> 
> Much like Walter White did for Jane (Jesse's girlfriend).


And people do not believe in Karma on TAM......


----------



## cool12

happyman64 said:


> And people do not believe in Karma on TAM......


yes but with that logic, why is carrie getting away with her infidelity? (i know she's not "getting away with it" but she is alive and kicking.)

OM had a wife too if i remember. wouldn't be surprised if she was none to happy with carrie. and now she's a widow. what about her chance to go to MC and R?


----------



## EI

My best, former WS, guess would be that Carrie will not be "pissed," because she knows that she doesn't have a "right" to be. I think the real question should be "Will she be hurt?" She's only human and despite the infidelity, it appears that she loves Jack very much. Rights and feelings are two different things. Carrie will be hurt, but you guys won't hear about it. That's my guess. 

It was a fair question for a BS to ask, Bandit. But, it was very gentlemanly of you to reword it. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## illwill

happy as a clam said:


> Walter (Jack) or Carrie...
> 
> Do either of you think it's possible that OM's accident was really a suicide? I mean, it would have been much more responsible to just plow into a tree and not involve another vehicle/driver, but did anyone know his state of mind at the time?
> 
> Don't meant to be macabre... it just seems like suicide or really bad karma for him.
> 
> P.S. I'm rooting for both of you to make this R work! Your love seems much too big to let go of...


Why would he do suicide that way? Really?


----------



## bandit.45

EI said:


> My best, former WS, guess would be that Carrie will not be "pissed," because she knows that she doesn't have a "right" to be. I think the real question should be "Will she be hurt?" She's only human and despite the infidelity, it appears that she loves Jack very much. Rights and feelings are two different things. Carrie will be hurt, but you guys won't hear about it. That's my guess.
> 
> It was a fair question for a BS to ask, Bandit. But, it was very gentlemanly for you to reword it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can be a d!ck sometimes, tis true.....


----------



## happyman64

illwill said:


> Does Carrie have impulse control issues? The job thing was odd for a pro to do. Quitting like that does get around town.


Jack and Carrie are in a different position many of us.

They are:
Mid 40's
Highly educated
Steady careers
Very good income

*And no [email protected] kids!*

That is not poor impulse control but wise planning.

Her desire to focus on her marriage by quitting her job is showing Jack where her priorities are.....

And she is being a little submissive but trusting of Jack that she is now somewhat financially dependent on him......

Good move Carrie.

HM


----------



## illwill

happyman64 said:


> Jack and Carrie are in a different position many of us.
> 
> They are:
> Mid 40's
> Highly educated
> Steady careers
> Very good income
> 
> *And no [email protected] kids!*
> 
> That is not poor impulse control but wise planning.
> 
> Her desire to focus on her marriage by quitting her job is showing Jack where her priorities are.....
> 
> And she is being a little submissive but trusting of Jack that she is now somewhat financially dependent on him......
> 
> Good move Carrie.
> 
> HM


That plus her version of the events which lead to the affair, sound like impulse control to me.


----------



## BetrayedDad

WalterWhite420 said:


> The OM died in a car accident 2 months ago. I only wish I could have been there to watch his heart stop beating and have done NOTHING to save him.


Maybe truth is stranger than fiction but why are you just mentioning this now? No offense but you're story gets weirder and weirder by the minute. It also seems to have changed alot since this thread has started. Seems very odd to me. On the off chance you're legit, why harbor so much hatred for the OM yet you still love your wife? They were both in your bed and essentially did the same thing to you. If fact, he's not the one who married you, you're wife did. So shouldn't you have just as much hatred for her if not more? Other than basic human decency, he had no obligation to you. 

Just don't tell me your one of these BS's that believe the OM preyed on your wife and she's some kind of helpless victim who was overpowered by his charm/good looks/penis size whatever... I know that's the nonsense she's been peddling but it just sounds like you've completely bought into it. You started off strong handling the situation and you're sinking faster than the Titanic. If you don't accept that your wife is just as culpable (ie sleazy) as the OM is then you're just in a false R. I can almost guarentee if she wasn't the aggressor (50/50 chance on that), she definitely helped facilitate it. You just come across as a love sick fool in a deep BS fog. Wake up man! Never forget what she did to you. In fact, buy a Singer Sewing machine and display it in your living room so you don't. Then after that if you STILL want to try then by all means.... Good Luck to you.


----------



## The Middleman

BetrayedDad said:


> Maybe truth is stranger than fiction but why are you just mentioning this now? No offense but you're story gets weirder and weirder by the minute. It also seems to have changed alot since this thread has started. Seems very odd to me. On the off chance you're legit, why harbor so much hatred for the OM yet you still love your wife? They were both in your bed and essentially did the same thing to you. If fact, he's not the one who married you, you're wife did. So shouldn't you have just as much hatred for her if not more? Other than basic human decency, he had no obligation to you.
> 
> Just don't tell me your one of these BS's that believe the OM preyed on your wife and she's some kind of helpless victim who was overpowered by his charm/good looks/penis size whatever... I know that's the nonsense she's been peddling but it just sounds like you've completely bought into it. You started off strong habdling the situation and you're sinking faster than the Titanic. If you don't accept that your wife is just as culpable (ie sleazy) as the OM is then you're just in a false R. I can almost guarentee if she wasn't the aggressor (50/50 chance on that), she definitely helped facilitate it. You just come across as a love sick fool in a deep BS fog. Wake up man!


:iagree:


----------



## illwill

Im glad someone else said it. I agree. This whole thing is suspect.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

cool12 said:


> don't forget though that it wasn't even lunch time when they started drinking. not many calories in the system that early in the day. it's a cheap time to get wasted.


Sure, but doesn't this cut against her? Who starts drinking in the morning, and then does so quickly enough to knock back two bottles in two hours together? This is not kicking back for a couple of drinks after a hard days work - this is starting before noon and drinking hard out of the gate. Sure sounds like there was a specific goal in mind.


----------



## sammy3

afterall said:


> Walter, I don't post very much. I do read what others post here and what they go through and how they moved on. My wife cheated on me with my best friend for 4 years. From 1996 to 2000. When we returned from our Honeymoon 1996. He was standing right there as if he was waiting for us to come home.
> 
> I rolled down my window to say HI and he confessed everything and asked her to choose between the both of us. She selected him. We just got back from our Honeymoon. I didn't catch her in the act with him. I didn't have to. The mind movies were there and since I knew her naked and seen him naked, that was enough for me.
> 
> As the day went on, she did end up staying with me but didn't really give him up. I knew of the relationship in 1996 and thought it ended in 1996. From what she said, the sex part of it was only a few months before we were married and only happened twice after we were married. I didn't know that it continued for 4 years. I learned new things in April 2013 which set off so many triggers and emotions that I kept bottled up.
> 
> We worked through it. We both cried. We both healed. I wanted to leave several times. I never really asked questions but I did and wished that I asked them back in 2000 but here we are in 2013. We are still married. We are very happy and have tons of kids with one on the way. I won't lie to you. It still hurts till this very day.
> 
> But there are pros and cons to all of this. For me I felt as if I did leave. I would be missing a part of me. I've been with this woman since I was 15 and now I'm 40 going on 41. I love her very much and we both learned from this can came out stronger.
> 
> So R is very possible but its going to be hard. You will never forget and **** will piss you off every now and then but when that happens, ask her to hold you. Make love to you. Think about how much more pain you would be in if she wasn't there.
> 
> R isn't for everyone but for me I'm glad I did and if things go as planned. I'm sure in the end you will be glad as well.


Wow. Afterall, I take my hat off to you. My life would be a zillion times easier if I could follow your path. I have been w one person longer than I've been w myself! 

What is it that some of you have and some of us don't seem to? My love for my h ((jerk he might have been)), was so very strong, very real...

What is it that makes our love different? 

~sammy

Dont mean to hijack


----------



## illwill

sammy3 said:


> Wow. Afterall, I take my hat off to you. My life would be a zillion times easier if I could follow your path. I have been w one person longer than I've been w myself!
> 
> What is it that some of you have and some of us don't seem to? My love for my h ((jerk he might have been)), was so very strong, very real...
> 
> What is it that makes our love different?
> 
> ~sammy
> 
> Dont mean to hijack


Self respect.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Carrie420 said:


> We went though all of this at our first attempt at reconciliation. Jack was just like you. He wanted all the details, and we had very unproductive discussions, and nothing was solved. It didn't work. For this attempt at reconciliation, I found the most highly regarded MC in our area. She was described by several of her references (I checked many of them) as the MC that MCs go to when they have trouble in their marriage. I don't care what she charges.
> 
> I'm not prolonging anything. I've been pursuing Jack and reconciliation for months. I'm willing to do whatever needs to be done.
> 
> I'm trying to answer your question as honestly as possible.
> 
> But you're wrong about councilors. Jack's IC brought him out of some dark places, and so did mine for me. MCs are recommended by almost every marriage help book, web site, etc.



when Jack wanted all the details earlier, did you give them to him? or did the first attempt not work becuase you wouldn't answer his questions?


----------



## nuclearnightmare

WalterWhite420 said:


> Man, I've certainly held your views in the past. I can understand why you feel the way you do.
> 
> I tried to get her out of my heart and head. For months. And I couldn't do it. Months of trying to hate or dislike her. Or at least feel indifferent. It worked for a while, and I had myself convinced. But my suppressed love for her surfaced with a vengeance about 2 weeks ago.
> 
> The truth is I love her more than I love myself, or anyone else, past present or future. And while it may not work out in the end, I've got to give her another chance.
> 
> If it fails, I'll be devastated, but at least I'll know for sure.


IMO real love needs to be well grounded in a spouse that loves you back, treats you with respect and wants to protect you and the marriage. Otherwise it is more like an addiction.


----------



## krismimo

Walter if you love her more than your self than that is the very first problem not even including her infidelity, that actually explains a whole lot of why you jumped head first in the R, even if it has been a few months it is not healthy to love some one more than you value yourself. In fact you never talk about yourself, you never touch on really your feelings or hurt and pain that you have been through now it's all unicorns and rainbows and it just doesn't work that way. Until you value your self and have a healthier esteem this is not going to work and you will would be so focused on tunnel vision on her needs that you will and in some ways already have neglected your own.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

krismimo said:


> I know you love your wife but what is trouble some is how you remain to put her on this pedestal even after what she has done to you. You keep talking about how beautiful and smart she is you sound brain washed you sound like your still in a fog and I know it is because of the "hysterical bonding" that you two have done with each other. It is good your wife is here BUT she is still not really seeing what her affair has done and what it will continue to do for the remainder of your marriage.


This. almost exactly what I was thinking. knock off all the goddess, one in a milion, drop-dead gorgeous talk! is she drop-dead gorgeous on the inside? outside beauty is easy, beautiful on the inside is something some people never come close to.....


----------



## bandit.45

krismimo said:


> Walter if you love her more than your self than that is the very first problem not even including her infidelity, that actually explains a whole lot of why you jumped head first in the R, even if it has been a few months it is not healthy to love some one more than you value yourself. In fact you never talk about yourself, you never touch on really your feelings or hurt and pain that you have been through now it's all unicorns and rainbows and it just doesn't work that way. Until you value your self and have a healthier esteem this is not going to work and you will would be so focused on tunnel vision on her needs that you will and in some ways already have neglected your own.


Truth.


----------



## krismimo

excuse my french but stop putting the p***y on a pedestal.


----------



## kristin2349

krismimo said:


> excuse my french but stop putting the p***y on a pedestal.



It's extra hard to do when you found it in the gutter, IMO.

There do seem to be some unhealthy patterns. But with the amount of counseling, there are some therapists raking in the "premium" rates of sorting this out. If R doesn't work there won't be anything for the lawyers


----------



## illwill

Walter is DEEPLY co-dependant. This explains a lot. This is not love.


----------



## krismimo

In truth deep down women know what they can and can't get away with. For example to a degree I have my finger wrapped around my husband and vise versa....however the moment I cross the line I'm out. I know for a fact he would give his life for me and considers me the love of his life but if I cross the boundary were done. I respect that and in a odd way love him more knowing that if I did something to hurt him he would walk away, even if it hurt him because as much as he loves me once that trust is broken he couldn't look at me the same again and more important he loves himself. 

In no way am I saying if you R you don't have any self respect, but if you don't respect yourself and value your self than bad things happen to you, and they happen because you don't put a stop to it or worse you don't know how to because your afraid of being alone. I know your still working things out and it is early, but if you truly want to R you also need to put things in the right perspective. What your wife did was awful but don't think you HAVE to stay with her to save face or because you love her, you could love someone with all your heart but that does not meant they are right for you.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

bravenewworld said:


> Her sleeping with the OM in your marital bed wasn't an act of convenience - it was an act of aggression and disrespect to your relationship. 99% of the time a spouse chooses this location it is to retaliate against their significant other for perceived transgressions, real or imagined. The other 1% are just dumb as dirt and your wife doesn't seem to fall in that category.
> 
> First time EVER and you caught them - wonder what the odds are for that? Sounds like a horrible reverse lottery. Lightening striking you is probably more likely than it her being her first time having a PA and/or EA.
> 
> Just because you love someone is no excuse to bury your head in the sand. Put yourself first and really dig for the truth - it may set you free. Don't completely rely on the marriage counselor either because at the end of the day it's YOUR truth. Use what is helpful and question/disregard what isn't. Counselors are flawed too and they all have their own agendas.
> 
> I've been where you're at and it's the worst possible place to be. Wishing you luck Jack/Walter.



:iagree:

good post. still 8 pages behind but can't wait any longer:

Walter - she now says it was one time. Do you mean to tell me that it took her almost a year to make you aware of that??! until now she had you thinking it was a one year affair! and here is this "strong" in your words, woman, slapping this guys handa away again, and again, until she finally just decides to get completely undressed so she can have sex with him.
and you guys tried to have a discussion ofwhat happened months ago, but for some reason she couldn't bring herself to tell you these things then?! 

how much dishonesty can you take? what kind of a game is she playing (with you)? needless to say I am 'not feelin it' in terms of the credibility of her story. you said she has a great sense of humor. She's not trying her hand at a comedy script is she?

I'm a believer in polygraph relaibility at about 95% confidence. If she passes her's I'll know that 2asdf2 is onto something.


----------



## illwill

He needed a twist for the story.


----------



## adriana

nuclearnightmare said:


> This. almost exactly what I was thinking. knock off all the goddess, one in a milion, drop-dead gorgeous talk! is she drop-dead gorgeous on the inside? outside beauty is easy, beautiful on the inside is something some people never come close to.....



Yes, it's disturbing how much weight is being put on physical appearance in today's society. I find it truly disgusting how easily ideas, opinions, or even help of less physically appealing individuals aren't valued enough or are sometimes rejected altogether for this reason.


----------



## Philat

illwill said:


> He needed a twist for the story.


Welcome aboard, Ill. Nice to have you here.


----------



## Mzflower

illwill said:


> He needed a twist for the story.


Sorry illwill I deleted the post...think I need to stay away from this one :scratchhead:


----------



## WalterWhite420

nuclearnightmare said:


> :iagree:
> 
> good post. still 8 pages behind but can't wait any longer:
> 
> Walter - she now says it was one time. Do you mean to tell me that it took her almost a year to make you aware of that??! until now she had you thinking it was a one year affair! and here is this "strong" in your words, woman, slapping this guys handa away again, and again, until she finally just decides to get completely undressed so she can have sex with him.
> and you guys tried to have a discussion ofwhat happened months ago, but for some reason she couldn't bring herself to tell you these things then?!
> 
> how much dishonesty can you take? what kind of a game is she playing (with you)? needless to say I am 'not feelin it' in terms of the credibility of her story. you said she has a great sense of humor. She's not trying her hand at a comedy script is she?
> 
> I'm a believer in polygraph relaibility at about 95% confidence. If she passes her's I'll know that 2asdf2 is onto something.


I appreciate your input. I read every post and think about them all.

She told me then what she's telling me now, as far as my skewed memory can serve me. At that time, I was too drug-dependent (marijuana mostly, but alcohol as well) to communicate fairly and accurately. I accused, blamed, called names, interrupted, jumped to conclusions, walked away, withdrew, and should have been in a mental hospital. I was in no shape to be forming conclusions of any kind.

Now, after months of IC and ignoring her completely, I've decided to try a SOBER attempt at R. Maybe SOBER I will see things differently. 

All I can think of to try and build trust in her again is to verify her story with multiple polygraphs. That's the best I know how to do. And see her actions (she chased me for months after DDay to R, doesn't need my finances, could have almost any man she desired, quit her lucrative job to just concentrate on us and our marriage, bending over backwards to be patient and understanding of my difficulties, etc.).

I can understand the concerns expressed by all here. But the bottom line is that I just plain LOVE her. And I think she deserves another chance. And she will get only ONE more chance. She knows that. If she can pass ALL these polygraphs, or BEAT THEM ALL, then she'll have me forever.

That's the best I can come up with.


----------



## WalterWhite420

illwill said:


> Does Carrie have impulse control issues? The job thing was odd for a pro to do. Quitting like that does get around town.


No, she's never exhibited impulse control issues. She doesn't need any more money. She's wanting to concentrate on us now. She's trying hard.


----------



## WalterWhite420

happy as a clam said:


> Walter (Jack) or Carrie...
> 
> Do either of you think it's possible that OM's accident was really a suicide? I mean, it would have been much more responsible to just plow into a tree and not involve another vehicle/driver, but did anyone know his state of mind at the time?
> 
> Don't meant to be macabre... it just seems like suicide or really bad karma for him.
> 
> P.S. I'm rooting for both of you to make this R work! Your love seems much too big to let go of...


I've never considered that...but I don't think so. I think it was that hit man I hired.


----------



## WalterWhite420

Mzflower said:


> Sorry illwill I deleted the post...think I need to stay away from this one :scratchhead:


Then why don't you, please?


----------



## WalterWhite420

bandit.45 said:


> *Delta-3 TetraHydraCannabinoid, Inc.*
> 
> Carrie you didn't answer my question: How do you feel about Jack having had sex with another woman on New Years?
> 
> (Don't answer for her Walter).


Carrie is waiting for her turn on the computer. I got rid of all our PCs except one, so I only have one to check and install keylogger software on. She will answer your question when it's her turn to log in.


----------



## WalterWhite420

sandc said:


> :lol:
> 
> Walter, this man needs a blunt. Oh wait, Bandit is blunt enough already.
> 
> Sorry, man, I'm at work and bored spliff, er, stiff.


Bandit can get a blunt from me, anytime.


----------



## sandc

*Re: Re: My Living Hell*



WalterWhite420 said:


> Bandit can get a blunt from me, anytime.


Don't bogart the blunt Bandit!


----------



## krismimo

And yet still you never even talked about yourself. Until you admit that codependency it will not matter. Good Luck to You Walter.


----------



## cool12

WalterWhite420 said:


> Carrie is waiting for her turn on the computer. I got rid of all our PCs except one, so I only have one to check and install keylogger software on. She will answer your question when it's her turn to log in.


why install keylogger software?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WalterWhite420

BetrayedDad said:


> Maybe truth is stranger than fiction but why are you just mentioning this now? No offense but you're story gets weirder and weirder by the minute. It also seems to have changed alot since this thread has started. Seems very odd to me. On the off chance you're legit, why harbor so much hatred for the OM yet you still love your wife? They were both in your bed and essentially did the same thing to you. If fact, he's not the one who married you, you're wife did. So shouldn't you have just as much hatred for her if not more? Other than basic human decency, he had no obligation to you.
> 
> Just don't tell me your one of these BS's that believe the OM preyed on your wife and she's some kind of helpless victim who was overpowered by his charm/good looks/penis size whatever... I know that's the nonsense she's been peddling but it just sounds like you've completely bought into it. You started off strong handling the situation and you're sinking faster than the Titanic. If you don't accept that your wife is just as culpable (ie sleazy) as the OM is then you're just in a false R. I can almost guarentee if she wasn't the aggressor (50/50 chance on that), she definitely helped facilitate it. You just come across as a love sick fool in a deep BS fog. Wake up man! Never forget what she did to you. In fact, buy a Singer Sewing machine and display it in your living room so you don't. Then after that if you STILL want to try then by all means.... Good Luck to you.


What bearing did it have on the story?

His death didn't minimize the affair. Nor did it make it more than it was.

It didn't affect anything.

I love her BD. Can't it just be as plain and simple as that?

She will get a 2nd chance, but not a 3rd.

May you find your way as pleasant.


----------



## WalterWhite420

sandc said:


> Don't bogart the blunt Bandit!


You can get one too, sandc. In fact, two for you!


----------



## WalterWhite420

illwill said:


> Im glad someone else said it. I agree. This whole thing is suspect.


Then just please leave. 

What's more stupid? Me giving an absolute love and sex goddess a 2nd chance, or you wasting your time posting in a thread you don't trust?

Just think about that for 5 minutes. Then please leave.


----------



## bravenewworld

WalterWhite420 said:


> I appreciate your input. I read every post and think about them all.
> 
> She told me then what she's telling me now, as far as my skewed memory can serve me. At that time, I was too drug-dependent (marijuana mostly, but alcohol as well) to communicate fairly and accurately.
> 
> Now, after months of IC and ignoring her completely, I've decided to try a SOBER attempt at R. Maybe SOBER I will see things differently.
> 
> I can understand the concerns expressed by all here. But the bottom line is that I just plain LOVE her. And I think she deserves another chance. And she will get only ONE more chance. She knows that. If she can pass ALL these polygraphs, or BEAT THEM ALL, then she'll have me forever.


If you love her and think she deserves another chance - why polygraph? I truly think you will regret it. MC makes sense and can be valuable but the polygraph is just showboating and could easily lead to false positives - further damaging your relationship. Either you're willing to (try) and trust her or you're not. YOU should be the one to make the decision, not some machine. There's a reason they aren't admissible in court. She's your wife, not an international terrorist being booked into Guantanamo. 

Question - if you have had past issues with substance abuse (Maryjane and liquor) why on earth would Carrie be promoting you both to stay home and start up a winery/pot farm?! I find that very disturbing and I'm no prude. Seems like a a powder keg of manipulation, dependency, control, and enabling. The perfect recipe for a toxicity explosion. Also didn't she state over consumption of alcohol as a factor in her choosing to have an affair?


----------



## illwill

Im gonna go with the doormat. Im out.


----------



## WalterWhite420

krismimo said:


> Walter if you love her more than your self than that is the very first problem not even including her infidelity, that actually explains a whole lot of why you jumped head first in the R, even if it has been a few months it is not healthy to love some one more than you value yourself. In fact you never talk about yourself, you never touch on really your feelings or hurt and pain that you have been through now it's all unicorns and rainbows and it just doesn't work that way. Until you value your self and have a healthier esteem this is not going to work and you will would be so focused on tunnel vision on her needs that you will and in some ways already have neglected your own.


Kris,

I respect your posts, criticism, and every contribution you make here. You challenge me (good) and Carrie (good). We need that and welcome it.

I can't help how I feel about her. I tried for months to hate her. I fought a losing battle. I'm giving the love of my life a 2nd chance, and I will be diligent to make sure she is worthy of it.


----------



## WalterWhite420

illwill said:


> Im gonna go with the doormat. Im out.


**** off and don't come back. Your username sums up your attitude.


----------



## illwill

Just dont send your hitman after me, please. Nevermind. Ill drive away now.


----------



## WalterWhite420

illwill said:


> Just dont send your hitman after me, please. Nevermind. Ill drive away now.


Drive fast.


----------



## WalterWhite420

krismimo said:


> And yet still you never even talked about yourself. Until you admit that codependency it will not matter. Good Luck to You Walter.


Please expound kris...I value your input but don't quite understand what all you're getting at here...


----------



## Carrie420

adriana said:


> Sounds hilarious but let me know if you two are looking for investors. :smthumbup:


We'll keep you in mind.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

WalterWhite420 said:


> OK, here's some comic relief for the cynics (if any) in here...but it's also a great and wonderful possibility for those of you who have a good sexy squeeze...
> 
> During our first joint counciling session (yesterday), our MC gave us a “homework” exercise to do before our next session. Keep in mind that this MC is known for somewhat unorthodox methods (and damn great results). My wife called almost all of her references, and they pretty much all said (paraphrasing) “shut up, listen to her, do exactly what she says, and you’ll thank me later”.
> 
> So here’s the exercise. Our MC instructed us to prepare a simple meal, but one that required fork/knife/spoon to eat. She instructed us to plan the dinner together, go out together and buy all the ingredients, prepare the dinner together, and then do the following:
> 
> Sit down in dining chairs (no table), facing one another, really close together, knees intermingled, with our dinner trays in our laps. And then proceed to eat dinner, feeding one another from our own plates. In other words, I was to use the food in my plate to feed Carrie, and Carrie was to use the food in her plate to feed me. Simultaneously. Tonight, we picked an “easy to eat” meal of t-bones and baked potatoes. As the MC said it would, it seemed silly and was definitely awkward. But it was also fun, and surprisingly *sensual*. I enjoyed feeding Carrie. And Carrie enjoyed feeding me. We started awkwardly, but got more proficient as we continued. We laughed when we made mistakes. But we eventually got going well enough that we talked about things unrelated to the meal. And we finger-fed one another grapes after the meal (our idea).
> 
> I’m guessing the MC intended this as an exercise in meeting one another’s needs. But maybe more importantly, an exercise in each of us trusting and allowing the other to meet our own needs.
> 
> Make fun if you must, but the sex afterwards was quite different than the sex we've been having the past couple of weeks. The past couple of weeks included nothing but session after session of hot makeup sex. But after dinner tonight, it was slower, more looking into one other's eyes, more cerebral, more sensual, more talking, more into one another. Quite a refreshing change up. Very different, but just as satisfying if not more.
> 
> We’re doing this exercise again tomorrow night, by mutual choice.


And sex with her isnt difficult for you at all. Does not start any mind movies of her and the other guy, at all? Even though you personally witnessed them together.....


----------



## Carrie420

illwill said:


> Does Carrie have impulse control issues? The job thing was odd for a pro to do. Quitting like that does get around town.


I quit to put my time in rebuilding our marriage. I think it's a good tradeoff.


----------



## Carrie420

nuclearnightmare said:


> And sex with her isnt difficult for you at all. Does not start any mind movies of her and the other guy, at all? Even though you personally witnessed them together.....


This is Walt. Carrie is currently logged in, but it's Walt typing here...

When I'm with Carrie, I'm able to concentrate 100% on her...

It's when she's asleep (and I'm alone) that the things you describe bother me...

And yes, they bother me.


----------



## sammy3

I dont know if I missed this or not,...been dealing w my own, life, ((lolol)), but, the wife of the om. Did she ever learn of your wife? Unless he was a serial cheater, I hope she never learns of her dead h behavior.

It is bad enough when they are alive, but to find out after they are dead. And so shortly afterwards. If I were in her shoes and I found out that my h had been involved w another women shortly before his accident, I'ld do all I could to track down the ow. I dont think anything would stop me... 

~sammy


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

This thread just seems odd. The description of the infidelity and the reconciliation itself is not odd, it's how Mr. and Mrs. 420 come across in this thread. IDK, it just seems that the interactions would be different in a situation like this. What am I missing here???


----------



## Carrie420

bandit.45 said:


> *Delta-3 TetraHydraCannabinoid, Inc.*
> 
> Carrie you didn't answer my question: How do you feel about Jack having had sex with another woman on New Years?
> 
> (Don't answer for her Walter).


Bandit,

It hurt. Of course it did. But Jack is a desirable man, and I drove him out of our bed, and so I would be stupid to expect that he hadn't been with another woman in all that time...I was prepared to hear it.

But I've forgiven it and put it behind me, because it was all my fault anyway...all I care about now is me and Jack from two weeks ago forward.


----------



## 3putt

Plan 9 from OS said:


> This thread just seems odd. The description of the infidelity and the reconciliation itself is not odd, it's how Mr. and Mrs. 420 come across in this thread. IDK, it just seems that the interactions would be different in a situation like this. What am I missing here???


You're not missing anything.


----------



## the guy

@Carrie, don't phucked around.....so much depends on you.

You guys can save this sh!t ....it takes grace and submission, but R can happen.

Me and Mrs. the-guy have been down this sh!tty road......and we are making it.

It's only been 4 yrs since d-day and we're still in the game .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Carrie420

Plan 9 from OS said:


> This thread just seems odd. The description of the infidelity and the reconciliation itself is not odd, it's how Mr. and Mrs. 420 come across in this thread. IDK, it just seems that the interactions would be different in a situation like this. What am I missing here???


I don't know. My good husband is in need of your help. My interactions here may be hindering some from believing and, therefore, contributing the valuable knowledge they possess from storming situations similar to ours...


----------



## Carrie420

3putt said:


> You're not missing anything.


Then please leave. Jack is sitting by me and concurs. 

If you don't want to help, then don't. But please, don't get in the way.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Carrie420 said:


> I don't know. My good husband is in need of your help. My interactions here may be hindering some from believing and, therefore, contributing the valuable knowledge they possess from storming situations similar to ours...


Believe me, it was even more curious prior to your username first appearing in this thread. The protagonist has displayed a number of reactions to the infidelity, as gleaned from his posts, that just seems off.


----------



## bandit.45

sandc said:


> Don't bogart the blunt Bandit!


Puff puff pass....

Puff puff pass....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 3putt

Carrie420 said:


> Then please leave. Jack is sitting by me and concurs.
> 
> If you don't want to help, then don't. But please, don't get in the way.


You're real one way or the other, but your arrogance is beyond incredible. LOL.....you 'both' make me just shake my head in amazement.

I just can't figure out if it's  or :rofl:


----------



## sammy3

[error


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

sammy3 said:


> - What I was asking, why can some forgive and some find it difficult too?
> 
> ~ sammy


Is this rhetorical?


----------



## Carrie420

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Believe me, it was even more curious prior to your username first appearing in this thread. The protagonist has displayed a number of reactions to the infidelity, as gleaned from his posts, that just seems off.


Come down to earth from your opiate high, and speak ****ing English, so I can understand...please...and thank you.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Carrie420 said:


> Come down to earth from your opiate high, and speak ****ing English, so I can understand...please...and thank you.


You're a pharmacist or a chemist, aren't you? I assume you took college level English Lit/writing/comp, no? I don't believe that my writing was pendantic nor excessively verbose...


----------



## Carrie420

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Is this rhetorical?


Exactly what value did your post provide?


----------



## adriana

Walter, I'm struggling with understanding why you want to go through this polygraph test circus if you seem to be dead certain that you want to reconcile with Carrie? After all, even if she does pass, you still will be faced with accepting the fact that your wife gave herself the green light to pursue emotional/sexual affair with another man.

Is passing polygraph test by Carrie supposed to somehow help you in dealing with this issue? :scratchhead:


----------



## Carrie420

Plan 9 from OS said:


> You're a pharmacist or a chemist, aren't you? I assume you took college level English Lit/writing/comp, no? I don't believe that my writing was pendantic nor excessively verbose...


It was unspecific and obviously opinionated...the two most lethal killers to a written argument...where were you educated?


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Carrie420 said:


> Exactly what value did your post provide?


I was responding to Sammy3. I wasn't sure if she was asking a rhetorical question or if she was asking for someone to opine on her thought. Hence the reason why I asked the question. I should not have asked the question since it did not pertain to the plight of your husband. For that, I apologize.


----------



## Carrie420

adriana said:


> Walter, I'm struggling with understanding why you want to go through this polygraph test circus if you seem to be dead certain that you want to reconcile with Carrie? After all, even if she does pass, you still will be faced with accepting the fact that your wife gave herself the green light to pursue emotional/sexual affair with another man.
> 
> Is passing polygraph test by Carrie supposed to somehow help you in dealing with this issue? :scratchhead:


Adriana,

This is Walt...although Carrie is currently logged in...

As I said before, I wanted to have independent confirmation (besides Carrie's word) that I knew exactly what happened. A polygraph was the best I could come up with, since the ****ing FBI, CIA, and state and local governments all trust them.


----------



## Carrie420

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I was responding to Sammy3. I wasn't sure if she was asking a rhetorical question or if she was asking for someone to opine on her thought. Hence the reason why I asked the question. I should not have asked the question since it did not pertain to the plight of your husband. For that, I apologize.


Thank you. I appreciate it.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Carrie420 said:


> It was unspecific and obviously opinionated...the two most lethal killers to a written argument...where were you educated?


I didn't realize we were debating/arguing. Are we debating or arguing?


----------



## Carrie420

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I didn't realize we were debating/arguing. Are we debating or arguing?


As long as your posts are intended to truly help my wonderful husband, then we are not arguing.


----------



## Carrie420

nuclearnightmare said:


> when Jack wanted all the details earlier, did you give them to him? or did the first attempt not work becuase you wouldn't answer his questions?


Jack was high all the time after DDay, or drunk, or both. My fault for sure. But yes, I answered all questions after an initial (brief) withholding of the truth. I was scared and wanted to just die.


----------



## raven3321

Carrie,

Jack wrote something awhile ago that I thought strange in lieu of your revelation that the EA was a week before the PA. He said that in retrospect he saw clues he just hadn't noticed, i.e, dolling up to go to the grocery store, working extra hours after work, etc. Do you remember any of these assertions and were any associated with the OM? The reason for the question is they seem to have taken place long before the week leading to the PA. Thanks for answering in advance.


----------



## WalterWhite420

raven3321 said:


> Carrie,
> 
> Jack wrote something awhile ago that I thought strange in lieu of your revelation that the EA was a week before the PA. He said that in retrospect he saw clues he just hadn't noticed, i.e, dolling up to go to the grocery store, working extra hours after work, etc. Do you remember any of these assertions and were any associated with the OM? The reason for the question is they seem to have taken place long before the week leading to the PA. Thanks for answering in advance.


Raven,

Jack just logged in, but this is Carrie.

Jack and I disagree on these details. And I'm willing to stake my future on the fact that there was no truth to Jack's hindsight suspicions. I'm taking as many polygraphs as Jack wants.


----------



## WalterWhite420

Hello All,

Please, non-believers, go away...

I want help. I welcome honest criticism, but if you don't believe, then save your time and refrain from posting. Please.

Thank you.


----------



## raven3321

WalterWhite420 said:


> Raven,
> 
> Jack just logged in, but this is Carrie.
> 
> Jack and I disagree on these details. And I'm willing to stake my future on the fact that there was no truth to Jack's hindsight suspicions. I'm taking as many polygraphs as Jack wants.


Got it. Hey Jack just an unrelated thought. Why don't you download another browser; one of you can be logged in on one browser, and the other on the other. That way you don't have to log off and on.


----------



## WalterWhite420

raven3321 said:


> Got it. Hey Jack just an unrelated thought. Why don't you download another browser; one of you can be logged in on one browser, and the other on the other. That way you don't have to log off and on.


Yeah, I need to look into that. So many changes so soon...

We're moving into Carrie's condo later this week...

I'll look into those things when we get all situated.


----------



## WalterWhite420

bravenewworld said:


> If you love her and think she deserves another chance - why polygraph? I truly think you will regret it. MC makes sense and can be valuable but the polygraph is just showboating and could easily lead to false positives - further damaging your relationship. Either you're willing to (try) and trust her or you're not. YOU should be the one to make the decision, not some machine. There's a reason they aren't admissible in court. She's your wife, not an international terrorist being booked into Guantanamo.
> 
> Question - if you have had past issues with substance abuse (Maryjane and liquor) why on earth would Carrie be promoting you both to stay home and start up a winery/pot farm?! I find that very disturbing and I'm no prude. Seems like a a powder keg of manipulation, dependency, control, and enabling. The perfect recipe for a toxicity explosion. Also didn't she state over consumption of alcohol as a factor in her choosing to have an affair?


I'm a very light drinker. I drank more during our "complications", but was never dependent upon alcohol. BUT I DID ABUSE IT FOR A BIT. I smoked too much marijuana as well. But in the past few months, I've limited my alcohol intake. And my marijuana usage is minimal as well.


----------



## WalterWhite420

krismimo said:


> And yet still you never even talked about yourself. Until you admit that codependency it will not matter. Good Luck to You Walter.


Plz Kris, elaborate. I'm not ignoring you. I value your input.


----------



## WalterWhite420

Once again...

Non-believers, please go away.

If you don't want to help, then fine. But don't get in the way.

All serious and well-intended posts are welcome. Be tough, but fair.


----------



## raven3321

Walter, tomorrow is poly day if I'm not mistaken right? Have you thought of the questions to ask? I thought you were going to pass them along here. Are you looking for any input on potential questions or are you pretty much set?


----------



## WalterWhite420

raven3321 said:


> Walter, tomorrow is poly day if I'm not mistaken right? Have you thought of the questions to ask? I thought you were going to pass them along here. Are you looking for any input on potential questions or are you pretty much set?


Tomorrow was supposed to be polygraph day. Or so I thought. My sister was supposed to set it up for tomorrow, but set it up for A WEEK FROM TOMORROW instead. Her mistake. Which explains why I haven't received the instruction pack yet.

I would LOVE inputs on questions.


----------



## raven3321

WalterWhite420 said:


> Tomorrow was supposed to be polygraph day. Or so I thought. My sister was supposed to set it up for tomorrow, but set it up for A WEEK FROM TOMORROW instead. Her mistake. Which explains why I haven't received the instruction pack yet.
> 
> I would LOVE inputs for questions.


OK. Here's some:

1) Was this your first sexual experience with OM'
2) Were you aware of his intentions when he called/came over
3) Was there any physical contact prior to D-Day
4) Did you love him
5) Did you ever express feelings of love to him
6) Did he wear a condom
7) Other than OM, were you intimate with anyone else since our wedding
9) Did you initiate sex or did he
10) Did you meet him at any other time before or after d-day
11) Do you love me (you already know the answer to that but why not throw it in)

That's all I can think of.

That's all I can think of.


----------



## TBT

Not sure of how many questions you get to ask on poly.I know some BS get the wayward to answer a list of questions prior to the poly.Then,during the poly,they ask if the wayward answered truthfully to the list.Don't know if that helps at all but good luck.


----------



## lordmayhem

Your poly examiner should have already given you tips on the questions. I've said this before in another thread:

1. Limit your questions to only 5. Any more will make the test inconclusive.
2. Do not ask questions that ask you to quantify. Example: Did you have sex with OM 1 time or 5 times?
3. Do not ask questions that require an opinion type answer. Example: Why did you have the affair?
4. Ask questions that require a yes or no answer only. (positive, negative)


----------



## krismimo

WalterWhite420 said:


> Plz Kris, elaborate. I'm not ignoring you. I value your input.


I know Walter it's just hard because in all honesty I wasn't going to come back and I had to sit back and think about what I wanted to say and then wish you well.

You have tunnel vision right now and it's hard to help someone with tunnel vision the tricky thing about tunnel vision is that you can't see what is in back of you to the side of you just in front of you. Carrie is right in front of you and you are not seeing what we are trying to say. You hear it but your not listening and it's not because your ignoring it it's because you are not there yet. You are not ready to receive the advice that is being given to you. I use metaphors so please bear with me.  


It's like a favorite Movie or show and you want to introduce it to someone else who has never seen it before, but it's hard to contain yourself because you love this movie so much but you don't want to spoil it for the person seeing it for the first time.
But you can't help it. So you mouth out the lines you try not giggle or laugh at all the parts that you love the most. You can't help it. 

What the hell am I saying?... We have been there before we know the feelings you feel even before you tell us, there is so much that you need to know and learn about what you are going through it takes time, you need to know like what cheater's script is, in truth you are not suppose to trust anything your wife tells you until you had solid proof, you did it backwards. 

The thing about your R is you went about it in a Alice in wonderland kind of way, in things you should have slowed down and give pause to think about you went through it full speed ahead and in areas where you should have jumped in you didn't.

I will give an example, you could still try to R watch from a distance and work on YOURSELF, you shouldn't have stopped the Divorce proceedings or the very least there should have been a long term separation at least 6 months to a year. 

If she really cares and loves you even after divorce she would persist and see things through with you and all the sincerity and loyalty would not be in question, she would have to suffer consequences for her actions. think about that Walter. Your wife Carrie has not suffered any kind of consequence. Besides knowing she hurt you. 

Saying sorry and quitting your job is not going to cut it. It will work for a short period of time. The real HARD work comes in which is usually the 2-5 years after the affair technically after DDAY and that is without hiccups for some it takes longer. 

Your'e trying to put a band aid on something that takes years of healing, gathering information, and proper decisive choices and hardest of all acquiring trust. All these things you still could have done in a productive way during separation/Divorce proceedings. You should have worked on yourself, give yourself time to heal and you didn't give yourself enough time. 


The road to R is on the right track but not exactly the right way of going about things, you love her but she f*** up and because she messed up you needed to LOOK OUT FOR YOURSELF. You should have given more time to think you didn't so here you are. 

And maybe that is why people are questioning if Carrie is impulsive because of this theme here, she messes up she gets a RO on the other man not bad but what if you had questions? What if you wanted to get in contact with the wife or GF? You can't because it's a RO. You sure she did it to prove she had your back or to insure that you couldn't talk to him? 

Another mistake you made is taking everything she says as face value. Big mistake. Way wards can lie, and do lie to save themselves. My ex said he loved me he would cry and put on a show say he would kill himself etc etc etc, but he was lying. He only said things at that moment that would get me hooked in and take him back. It was a lie. It may or may not be the case in your situation but since that ship has sailed I can't help you there either. 

Now the Polygraph. I think the Poly is another mind **** she passes she passes if she doesn't than you have some decisions to make. The problem is even if she does pass it's not about the truth it's really about the PTSD like triggers regarding her affair. 
Sure it might not happen now they come out the blue when you least expect it and they are horrible. Were sort of jumping ahead of you and jumping backwards because of your situation.

I got to where I'am because I made so many, many, many, many, mistakes. I didn't get to where I'am now because I did everything right. Were just trying to spare you the pain you will face and you are not prepared for it technically no one is the price you pay for staying with a cheater. You carry the burden weather you realize that or not.

You have tunnel vision I see it because I had it I wasn't ready. You are not ready at least not yet. 

Good Luck

Kris


----------



## See_Listen_Love

WalterWhite420 said:


> Once again...
> 
> Non-believers, please go away.
> 
> If you don't want to help, then fine. But don't get in the way.
> 
> All serious and well-intended posts are welcome. Be tough, but fair.


I am sorry these days so many posters loose their ability to reason on these forums. It may have to do with the past holidays and the resentments towards their straying (ex-)wives. The biting Black-and-white Inquisition thinking is heavy nowadays.

I congratulate you on your strong personality and ability to execute the things you see needed. It shows in your dealing with these posts. 

I too have doubts about the one-time thing. It seems unimaginable. I hope that whatever will come you two can make it work, and overcome the adversity.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Carrie420 said:


> I will answer those questions for all to hear. In due time, when our marriage councilor approves.
> 
> Mainly, I just want all you people to help Jack. If it works out that you help me too, then fine. I'll take it.
> 
> Jack is worthy of your continued help. I know I'm not.


Yes you are.

Even if you lied about what happened, even if you would keep trickle truthing. Whatever you would do. 

Why?

We all are sinners, we all need forgiving. We keep doing things wrong and at best struggle to do some good. 

But know that people are bad at forgiving others, and at forgiving themselves. So you may have to endure hardship. Somehow that seems to be what life is about.


----------



## dogman

Carrie420 said:


> I don't know. My good husband is in need of your help. My interactions here may be hindering some from believing and, therefore, contributing the valuable knowledge
> they possess from storming situations similar to ours...


I'm still catching up from the nights posts but I'd like to add that...

Think what illwill means is that you and Walter are more united and loving and devoted sounding to each other than others who have come on this site in he past.

It seems like you don't need help and thus it begs the question "why are you here?" Some will say it's to mess with regular posters.

Then with certain details that come out later, some will question whether this is a work of fiction.
The OM dying is a major factor that matters to any betrayed spouse, it's hard to understand leaving that out. But hey, it happens.

Also the 2 details of catching them in the act, which happens but not often, and the physically dominating the OM when they were discovered. It is satisfying to read but again it's pretty rare.

I kinda think that it's uniting to be on here, it gives you guys a focus outside yourselves to agree with or defend against. Also, if I posted details about myself I might come off as extreme in certain directions as well. The Internet personality we display is 2 dimensional compared to reality.

It's my opinion that something inside Carrie is broken and you haven't found it yet. She hasn't found it yet. She has stuffed it down to accomplish her goal. Ego, self esteem, bottled up resentment, misdirected anger...who knows. But it's there, under all that attractiveness. Waiting to be an issue again someday.


----------



## Philat

raven3321 said:


> OK. Here's some:
> 
> 1) Was this your first sexual experience with OM'
> *2) Were you aware of his intentions when he called/came over*
> 3) Was there any physical contact prior to D-Day
> *4) Did you love him*
> *5) Did you ever express feelings of love to him*
> 6) Did he wear a condom
> 7) Other than OM, were you intimate with anyone else since our wedding
> *9) Did you initiate sex or did he*
> 10) Did you meet him at any other time before or after d-day
> *11) Do you love me (you already know the answer to that but why not throw it in)*
> 
> That's all I can think of.
> 
> That's all I can think of.


The bolded questions will not produce usable results on a poly. Simple yes or nos relating to facts, not feelings.


----------



## Philat

lordmayhem said:


> Your poly examiner should have already given you tips on the questions. I've said this before in another thread:
> 
> 1. Limit your questions to only 5. Any more will make the test inconclusive.
> *2. Do not ask questions that ask you to quantify. Example: Did you have sex with OM 1 time or 5 times?*
> 3. Do not ask questions that require an opinion type answer. Example: Why did you have the affair?
> 4. Ask questions that require a yes or no answer only. (positive, negative)


You can get to this by narrowing it down using yes-or-no questions:

Did you have sex with OM more than once? Yes
Did you have sex with OM more than 5 times? No
Did you have sex with OM more than three times? Yes

Etc.


----------



## WalterWhite420

krismimo said:


> I know Walter it's just hard because in all honesty I wasn't going to come back and I had to sit back and think about what I wanted to say and then wish you well.
> 
> You have tunnel vision right now and it's hard to help someone with tunnel vision the tricky thing about tunnel vision is that you can't see what is in back of you to the side of you just in front of you. Carrie is right in front of you and you are not seeing what we are trying to say. You hear it but your not listening and it's not because your ignoring it it's because you are not there yet. You are not ready to receive the advice that is being given to you. I use metaphors so please bear with me.
> 
> 
> It's like a favorite Movie or show and you want to introduce it to someone else who has never seen it before, but it's hard to contain yourself because you love this movie so much but you don't want to spoil it for the person seeing it for the first time.
> But you can't help it. So you mouth out the lines you try not giggle or laugh at all the parts that you love the most. You can't help it.
> 
> What the hell am I saying?... We have been there before we know the feelings you feel even before you tell us, there is so much that you need to know and learn about what you are going through it takes time, you need to know like what cheater's script is, in truth you are not suppose to trust anything your wife tells you until you had solid proof, you did it backwards.
> 
> The thing about your R is you went about it in a Alice in wonderland kind of way, in things you should have slowed down and give pause to think about you went through it full speed ahead and in areas where you should have jumped in you didn't.
> 
> I will give an example, you could still try to R watch from a distance and work on YOURSELF, you shouldn't have stopped the Divorce proceedings or the very least there should have been a long term separation at least 6 months to a year.
> 
> If she really cares and loves you even after divorce she would persist and see things through with you and all the sincerity and loyalty would not be in question, she would have to suffer consequences for her actions. think about that Walter. Your wife Carrie has not suffered any kind of consequence. Besides knowing she hurt you.
> 
> Saying sorry and quitting your job is not going to cut it. It will work for a short period of time. The real HARD work comes in which is usually the 2-5 years after the affair technically after DDAY and that is without hiccups for some it takes longer.
> 
> Your'e trying to put a band aid on something that takes years of healing, gathering information, and proper decisive choices and hardest of all acquiring trust. All these things you still could have done in a productive way during separation/Divorce proceedings. You should have worked on yourself, give yourself time to heal and you didn't give yourself enough time.
> 
> 
> The road to R is on the right track but not exactly the right way of going about things, you love her but she f*** up and because she messed up you needed to LOOK OUT FOR YOURSELF. You should have given more time to think you didn't so here you are.
> 
> And maybe that is why people are questioning if Carrie is impulsive because of this theme here, she messes up she gets a RO on the other man not bad but what if you had questions? What if you wanted to get in contact with the wife or GF? You can't because it's a RO. You sure she did it to prove she had your back or to insure that you couldn't talk to him?
> 
> Another mistake you made is taking everything she says as face value. Big mistake. Way wards can lie, and do lie to save themselves. My ex said he loved me he would cry and put on a show say he would kill himself etc etc etc, but he was lying. He only said things at that moment that would get me hooked in and take him back. It was a lie. It may or may not be the case in your situation but since that ship has sailed I can't help you there either.
> 
> Now the Polygraph. I think the Poly is another mind **** she passes she passes if she doesn't than you have some decisions to make. The problem is even if she does pass it's not about the truth it's really about the PTSD like triggers regarding her affair.
> Sure it might not happen now they come out the blue when you least expect it and they are horrible. Were sort of jumping ahead of you and jumping backwards because of your situation.
> 
> I got to where I'am because I made so many, many, many, many, mistakes. I didn't get to where I'am now because I did everything right. Were just trying to spare you the pain you will face and you are not prepared for it technically no one is the price you pay for staying with a cheater. You carry the burden weather you realize that or not.
> 
> You have tunnel vision I see it because I had it I wasn't ready. You are not ready at least not yet.
> 
> Good Luck
> 
> Kris


Thank you Kris. I don't have time to fully read your post this AM, but will do so and reply this evening. Honestly, I value your input. You are TOUGH but FAIR.


----------



## WalterWhite420

See_Listen_Love said:


> I am sorry these days so many posters loose their ability to reason on these forums. It may have to do with the past holidays and the resentments towards their straying (ex-)wives. The biting Black-and-white Inquisition thinking is heavy nowadays.
> 
> I congratulate you on your strong personality and ability to execute the things you see needed. It shows in your dealing with these posts.
> 
> I too have doubts about the one-time thing. It seems unimaginable. I hope that whatever will come you two can make it work, and overcome the adversity.


I know the one-time thing is hard to believe. The only thing I know to do is use the polygraph to help ensure her honesty.

That's all I can do besides just kicking her to the curb, or just believing her unconditionally.

She has another chance. I'm going to do whatever is reasonably possible to make sure she's truthful. If she passes that, then I'm going to continue R. 

And if what she's telling me now is true, I want to R, as long as we can work through the tough times together.

I hope we can.


----------



## WalterWhite420

WalterWhite420 said:


> OK, here's some comic relief for the cynics (if any) in here...but it's also a great and wonderful possibility for those of you who have a good sexy squeeze...
> 
> During our first joint counciling session (yesterday), our MC gave us a “homework” exercise to do before our next session. Keep in mind that this MC is known for somewhat unorthodox methods (and damn great results). My wife called almost all of her references, and they pretty much all said (paraphrasing) “shut up, listen to her, do exactly what she says, and you’ll thank me later”.
> 
> So here’s the exercise. Our MC instructed us to prepare a simple meal, but one that required fork/knife/spoon to eat. She instructed us to plan the dinner together, go out together and buy all the ingredients, prepare the dinner together, and then do the following:
> 
> Sit down in dining chairs (no table), facing one another, really close together, knees intermingled, with our dinner trays in our laps. And then proceed to eat dinner, feeding one another from our own plates. In other words, I was to use the food in my plate to feed Carrie, and Carrie was to use the food in her plate to feed me. Simultaneously. Tonight, we picked an “easy to eat” meal of t-bones and baked potatoes. As the MC said it would, it seemed silly and was definitely awkward. But it was also fun, and surprisingly *sensual*. I enjoyed feeding Carrie. And Carrie enjoyed feeding me. We started awkwardly, but got more proficient as we continued. We laughed when we made mistakes. But we eventually got going well enough that we talked about things unrelated to the meal. And we finger-fed one another grapes after the meal (our idea).
> 
> I’m guessing the MC intended this as an exercise in meeting one another’s needs. But maybe more importantly, an exercise in each of us trusting and allowing the other to meet our own needs.
> 
> Make fun if you must, but the sex afterwards was quite different than the sex we've been having the past couple of weeks. The past couple of weeks included nothing but session after session of hot makeup sex. But after dinner tonight, it was slower, more looking into one other's eyes, more cerebral, more sensual, more talking, more into one another. Quite a refreshing change up. Very different, but just as satisfying if not more.
> 
> We’re doing this exercise again tomorrow night, by mutual choice.


We did the above homework exercise again last night with even better results (both during and after the meal). Do yourself a favor and give it a try sometime.

Carrie and I are attending a marriage workshop seminar all day today. The theme is "Building Trust".

Have a good day all.


----------



## Carrie420

dogman said:


> I'm still catching up from the nights posts but I'd like to add that...
> 
> Think what illwill means is that you and Walter are more united and loving and devoted sounding to each other than others who have come on this site in he past.
> 
> It seems like you don't need help and thus it begs the question "why are you here?" Some will say it's to mess with regular posters.
> 
> Then with certain details that come out later, some will question whether this is a work of fiction.
> The OM dying is a major factor that matters to any betrayed spouse, it's hard to understand leaving that out. But hey, it happens.
> 
> Also the 2 details of catching them in the act, which happens but not often, and the physically dominating the OM when they were discovered. It is satisfying to read but again it's pretty rare.
> 
> I kinda think that it's uniting to be on here, it gives you guys a focus outside yourselves to agree with or defend against. Also, if I posted details about myself I might come off as extreme in certain directions as well. The Internet personality we display is 2 dimensional compared to reality.
> 
> It's my opinion that something inside Carrie is broken and you haven't found it yet. She hasn't found it yet. She has stuffed it down to accomplish her goal. Ego, self esteem, bottled up resentment, misdirected anger...who knows. But it's there, under all that attractiveness. Waiting to be an issue again someday.


dog we are here for help. That's it really. And Jack (and thus we) have been helped so much. We're making progress at rebuilding our marriage and lives together.

I'm committed to looking deep inside myself to find if something is in need of fixing. I attend IC, MC, and talk with Jack about it. We're working through it. We've been back together only about 2 weeks now. It's going to take time.


----------



## sandc

bandit.45 said:


> Puff puff pass....
> 
> Puff puff pass....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*inhales, counts to... uh... to...*


----------



## lenzi

WalterWhite420 said:


> The OM died in a car accident 2 months ago. I only wish I could have been there to watch his heart stop beating and have done NOTHING to save him.


Was he naked?


----------



## BetrayedDad

WalterWhite420 said:


> What bearing did it have on the story?
> 
> His death didn't minimize the affair. Nor did it make it more than it was.
> 
> It didn't affect anything.


You don't think the man who f****ed your wife in your bed being DEAD is relevant? Really?!? It never occured to you that perhaps your wife's new found resolve to save your marriage only AFTER she stabbed you in the back just might have something to do with the fact that he is no longer "available"?




WalterWhite420 said:


> I love her BD. Can't it just be as plain and simple as that?


Obviously you do but does she REALLY love you? She says she does but ask yourself this. Would you have ever done that to her? Weren't you loyal and faithful to her because you loved her? Wouldn't you have done anything for her? So if she loves you then why is she not the same way?

Because she is a selfish person. This is a core character flaw that CAN NOT be corrected. It's who she is period. Her actions prove this beyond doubt and selfish people love themselves first. So you must accept that you will always put her needs before your own and she will always puts her needs before your own. 

This is the kind of dysfunctional relationship you want? Don't you think you deserve better? I do... 




WalterWhite420 said:


> May you find your way as pleasant.


You too Jack. I don't plan to post in your thread anymore. You seem to have made up your mind on how you want to proceed. Take care.


----------



## bandit.45

Carrie420 said:


> dog we are here for help. That's it really. And Jack (and thus we) have been helped so much. We're making progress at rebuilding our marriage and lives together.
> 
> I'm committed to looking deep inside myself to find if something is in need of fixing. I attend IC, MC, and talk with Jack about it. We're working through it. We've been back together only about 2 weeks now. It's going to take time.


Here are the keys:

1) Absolute honesty in every aspect of your lives. There is no privacy in marriage. If there are other secrets you have been hiding (financial infidelity, debt, flirtatious corresponences or sexting with other men, etc.) now is the time to lay it all out for Walter to look at. 

2) Absolute transparency. Again, there are no more secrets in your marriage. No more going behind locked doors, no more going into other rooms to talk to someone on your cell phone, no more spending money without Walter's agreement, no more leaving the house and going off for extended periods without letting Walter know where you are. Buy a GPS tracker that will work with Walter's computer or smart phone and have it installed in your car so he will know where you are at all times, or, have one of those apps installed in your phone that will allow him to know where you are. Allow Walter to look at your cell phone on demand. Give him all passwords to your phone and computer. 

3) Joint marriage counseling, individual counseling for you and PTSD counseling for Walter. 

4) No more male friendships, none, except with men from your immediate family or those old friends who Walter knows and trusts implicitly. This is a privelege you lost. Any casual contact with any old ex-boyfriends or sex partners? Get them out of your life and never contact them again.

5) Take down your FB and MySpace pages. 

6) No GNOs (Girls' Nights Out) unless it's with a church quilting club or somesuch benign hen party. 

7) Unlimited BJs. 

8) Bang his brains out. 

9) Never stop apologizing. If you have to say I'm sorry 10,000,000 times over the next ten years, then that's just what you need to do. 

10) Read _His Needs Her Needs_ together and do it.


----------



## lenzi

WalterWhite420 said:


> The OM died in a car accident 2 months ago.





WalterWhite420 said:


> I think if she had not been caught, she would still be doing him today.


Not if he was cremated.


----------



## lenzi

WalterWhite420 said:


> So last night about 9:00, I read her letter. It wasn’t at all what I expected.
> 5.	I wrote a NC letter to my AP (copy attached).
> 
> 6.	I also filed a restraining order against him (copy attached) when he wouldn’t honor my NC letter.


But you said the guy died 2 months ago. See look, here it is again:



WalterWhite420 said:


> The OM died in a car accident 2 months ago.


I'm thinking a no contact letter and a restraining order is..um.."overkill". Unless you believe in the after life.. maybe that's why this thread is titled "living hell"..


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: My Living Hell*



bandit.45 said:


> Here are the keys:
> 
> 1) Absolute honesty in every aspect of your lives. There is no privacy in marriage. If there are other secrets you have been hiding (financial infidelity, debt, flirtatious corresponences or sexting with other men, etc.) now is the time to lay it all out for Walter to look at.
> 
> 2) Absolute transparency. Again, there are no more secrets in your marriage. No more going behind locked doors, no more going into other rooms to talk to someone on your cell phone, no more spending money without Walter's agreement, no more leaving the house and going off for extended periods without letting Walter know where you are. Buy a GPS tracker that will work with Walter's computer or smart phone and have it installed in your car so he will know where you are at all times, or, have one of those apps installed in your phone that will allow him to know where you are. Allow Walter to look at your cell phone on demand. Give him all passwords to your phone and computer.
> 
> 3) Joint marriage counseling, individual counseling for you and PTSD counseling for Walter.
> 
> 4) No more male friendships, none, except with men from your immediate family or those old friends who Walter knows and trusts implicitly. This is a privelege you lost. Any casual contact with any old ex-boyfriends or sex partners? Get them out of your life and never contact them again.
> 
> 5) Take down your FB and MySpace pages.
> 
> 6) No GNOs (Girls' Nights Out) unless it's with a church quilting club or somesuch benign hen party.
> 
> 7) Unlimited BJs.
> 
> 8) Bang his brains out.
> 
> 9) Never stop apologizing. If you have to say I'm sorry 10,000,000 times over the next ten years, then that's just what you need to do.
> 
> 10) Read _His Needs Her Needs_ together and do it.


Agreed! And the same goes for Walter as well. All except for the BJ's since that would be anatomically impossible. But I'm sure you can devise a reasonable facsimile that would suffice.


----------



## Philat

lenzi said:


> But you said the guy died 2 months ago. See look, here it is again:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm thinking a no contact letter and a restraining order is..um.."overkill". Unless you believe in the after life.. maybe that's why this thread is titled "living hell"..


Nice!


----------



## rrrbbbttt

Per the post by lenzi,

An old song comes to mind "Wasted Days and Wasted Nights"


----------



## Squeakr

rrrbbbttt said:


> An old song comes to mind "Wasted Days and Wasted Nights"


Nice, Freddie Fender. Takes me back to the mid 70's riding in the tractor in the field with my dad while he farmed and listening to the local country station on the radio!!


----------



## ArmyofJuan

lenzi said:


> But you said the guy died 2 months ago. See look, here it is again:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm thinking a no contact letter and a restraining order is..um.."overkill". Unless you believe in the after life.. maybe that's why this thread is titled "living hell"..


I ain't afraid of no ghost!

Not with my NC letter!


----------



## bandit.45

Squeakr said:


> Nice, Freddie Fender. Takes me back to the mid 70's riding in the tractor in the field with my dad while he farmed and listening to the local country station on the radio!!


Man I loved that Tejano with his b!tchin' fro and mustache! :smthumbup:


----------



## Foghorn

Wow, look what I've been missing. Still, I will resist the rather weak urge to catch on this thread.


----------



## lisab0105

lenzi said:


> But you said the guy died 2 months ago. See look, here it is again:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm thinking a no contact letter and a restraining order is..um.."overkill". Unless you believe in the after life.. maybe that's why this thread is titled "living hell"..


Um the cheating happened a year ago. Carrie cut off contact with OM immediately after that, per WW and Carrie. She has been trying to reconcile ever since. Obviously, NC and Restraining order were done almost a year ago. 

People are so quick to call troll, they forget what the timeline that has been posted.


----------



## Squeakr

bandit.45 said:


> Man I loved that Tejano with his b!tchin' fro and mustache! :smthumbup:


Yep. Looked like the love child of Albert Einstein and Jim Croce!!:smthumbup:


----------



## bandit.45

Squeakr said:


> Yep. Looked like the love child of Albert Einstein and Jim Croce!!:smthumbup:


:rofl:










Did you know his real name is Baldemar Huerta?


----------



## Squeakr

bandit.45 said:


> :rofl:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did you know his real name is Baldemar Huerta?



I admit nothing, lest I date myself even more!!!!


----------



## Daisy2714

bandit.45 said:


> Here are the keys:
> 
> 1) Absolute honesty in every aspect of your lives. There is no privacy in marriage. If there are other secrets you have been hiding (financial infidelity, debt, flirtatious corresponences or sexting with other men, etc.) now is the time to lay it all out for Walter to look at.
> 
> 2) Absolute transparency. Again, there are no more secrets in your marriage. No more going behind locked doors, no more going into other rooms to talk to someone on your cell phone, no more spending money without Walter's agreement, no more leaving the house and going off for extended periods without letting Walter know where you are. Buy a GPS tracker that will work with Walter's computer or smart phone and have it installed in your car so he will know where you are at all times, or, have one of those apps installed in your phone that will allow him to know where you are. Allow Walter to look at your cell phone on demand. Give him all passwords to your phone and computer.
> 
> 3) Joint marriage counseling, individual counseling for you and PTSD counseling for Walter.
> 
> 4) No more male friendships, none, except with men from your immediate family or those old friends who Walter knows and trusts implicitly. This is a privelege you lost. Any casual contact with any old ex-boyfriends or sex partners? Get them out of your life and never contact them again.
> 
> 5) Take down your FB and MySpace pages.
> 
> 6) No GNOs (Girls' Nights Out) unless it's with a church quilting club or somesuch benign hen party.
> 
> 7) Unlimited BJs.
> 
> 8) Bang his brains out.
> 
> 9) Never stop apologizing. If you have to say I'm sorry 10,000,000 times over the next ten years, then that's just what you need to do.
> 
> 10) Read _His Needs Her Needs_ together and do it.


*Thank you!* You had me going until I got to #7 and then I cracked! 7, 8 and 9 are just perfect! Thanks for the laugh, I really needed it. 

Daisy :rofl:


----------



## lenzi

lisab0105 said:


> Um the cheating happened a year ago. Carrie cut off contact with OM immediately after that, per WW and Carrie. She has been trying to reconcile ever since. Obviously, NC and Restraining order were done almost a year ago.
> 
> People are so quick to call troll, they forget what the timeline that has been posted.


I never called troll, I don't do that.

Just pointing out a few inconsistancies that need clarifying, and it appears you took care of one of them anyway.

Thanks!

But then again you bring up more questions.

So she wrote the OM a no contact letter and filed a restraining order immediately after the Op carried him out of the house naked, about a year ago?

Why didn't she share this with her husband until now? You'd think filing a restraining order would be difficult to keep secret, and why would she keep it a secret if she was remorseful? Obviously the affair was no secret at that point.


----------



## WalterWhite420

lenzi said:


> I never called troll, I don't do that.
> 
> Just pointing out a few inconsistancies that need clarifying, and it appears you took care of one of them anyway.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> But then again you bring up more questions.
> 
> So she wrote the OM a no contact letter and filed a restraining order immediately after the Op carried him out of the house naked, about a year ago?
> 
> Why didn't she share this with her husband until now? You'd think filing a restraining order would be difficult to keep secret, and why would she keep it a secret if she was remorseful? Obviously the affair was no secret at that point.


Carrie sent a NC letter during our first attempt at R. Sometime in the first few weeks following DDay. I remember that. But she didn't get the restraining order against him until later - after I had cut off contact with her. The OM tried to contact her several times, so she got a restraining order.

After I cut off contact, I refused to talk about anything except divorce settlement. I was high or drunk or both at all times. My memory of what we did talk about during that time is fuzzy and incomplete. At that time I didn't care, since I was convinced I was DONE WITH HER.


----------



## WalterWhite420

Once again, unbelievers, please leave.

Unbelievers, why do you waste your time posting in a thread you don't believe in? *Doesn't that speak to your stupidity?* Only stupid people post in threads they think are a farce. Are you stupid? Show me. Post a sarcastic or unbelieving comment and I'll know you're stupid. And so will everyone else here.

Honest, tough, criticizing commentary and questions are very welcome here.


----------



## WalterWhite420

sandc said:


> *inhales, counts to... uh... to...*


Please sandc, I've respected your input immensely. If you have something substantive to say (or ANY question or commentary about my favorite herb), then I'd love to hear it. And that's the truth.

Or call out Carrie and give her honest criticism. That's fine too. Be tough but fair with her.


----------



## WalterWhite420

BetrayedDad said:


> You don't think the man who f****ed your wife in your bed being DEAD is relevant? Really?!? It never occured to you that perhaps your wife's new found resolve to save your marriage only AFTER she stabbed you in the back just might have something to do with the fact that he is no longer "available"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously you do but does she REALLY love you? She says she does but ask yourself this. Would you have ever done that to her? Weren't you loyal and faithful to her because you loved her? Wouldn't you have done anything for her? So if she loves you then why is she not the same way?
> 
> Because she is a selfish person. This is a core character flaw that CAN NOT be corrected. It's who she is period. Her actions prove this beyond doubt and selfish people love themselves first. So you must accept that you will always put her needs before your own and she will always puts her needs before your own.
> 
> This is the kind of dysfunctional relationship you want? Don't you think you deserve better? I do...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You too Jack. I don't plan to post in your thread anymore. You seem to have made up your mind on how you want to proceed. Take care.


BD,

You are most welcome to post in my thread, anytime. Just please make sure your comments are intended to help or honestly challenge. Yes, I've decided to give an honest attempt at R. Maybe it will fail. But maybe 5 years from now Carrie and I will have a new marriage better than the original one.

The OM died in a car accident in which he was the only one at fault. That's not big news. It had no affect on the affair (it happened, and it was over). At the time I wrote that post, I had NO INTENTIONS of reconciling.

My wife had LONG BEFORE written him a NC letter and had taken out a restraining order against him when he refused to honor the NC letter. She was done with him long before he died an accidental death.


----------



## WalterWhite420

lenzi said:


> Was he naked?


On the autopsy table, yes, I imagine he was.


----------



## WalterWhite420

lenzi said:


> But you said the guy died 2 months ago. See look, here it is again:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm thinking a no contact letter and a restraining order is..um.."overkill". Unless you believe in the after life.. maybe that's why this thread is titled "living hell"..


Your timeline is a bit incorrect.

The "inconsistencies", Sherlock, are easily attributable to figures of speech.


----------



## WalterWhite420

Philat said:


> Nice!


Philat, please only post if you believe and you have something substantive to offer. Honest advice and criticism are welcome. Nothing else is.


----------



## WalterWhite420

Carrie and I went to a marriage workshop seminar today. The theme was "Building Trust". It was good. It lasted 6 hours, and included some good exercises.

Then I had my weekly IC session at 4:00.

My IC talked about this thread. He's the one who suggested I come here in the first place and post my story. And after I agreed to R with Carrie, he suggested that she come here and post as well (in this thread). Today I found out why. He actually reads this thread every other day or so.

He was very interested to see how I would react to the members here kind of "kicking Carrie around a bit". He knew it would happen. And she was indeed challenged by, and faced hard questions from, many of you. She was also attacked a bit by just a very few of you. A nice spectrum.

And my IC wanted to see my reaction to that. Again, I just found this out today. He set this "test" up himself, with unknowing help from me, Carrie, and many of you.

He was pleased with my reaction to the treatment of Carrie. He said that when she was "kicked around a bit", that I defended her to a reasonable degree, but also still let her face tough (but fair) treatment and questions head-on without overreacting.

He was pleased with that. He said that if I was willing to let her face tough questions and comments from you (the honest, non-attacking ones), then he felt comfortable that I was being objective in my R attempt. He feels that I'm emotionally ready for R.

Thank you all.


----------



## kristin2349

WalterWhite420 said:


> **** off and don't come back. Your username sums up your attitude.





WalterWhite420 said:


> Drive fast.





WalterWhite420 said:


> Once again, unbelievers, please leave.
> 
> Unbelievers, why do you waste your time posting in a thread you don't believe in? *Doesn't that speak to your stupidity?* Only stupid people post in threads they think are a farce. Are you stupid? Show me. Post a sarcastic or unbelieving comment and I'll know you're stupid. And so will everyone else here.
> 
> Honest, tough, criticizing commentary and questions are very welcome here.



Part of criticizing can either be a measure of honest questioning or disbelief. It still has its place. People have been more than fair to you and your wife.

You are on a public forum. Cherry picking posts and advice is your choice. For two people who seem very educated and strong willed, both you and Carrie have posted indications that border on blind devotion to your "PREMIUM priced" MC. You initially posted your IC insisted you post here. Your unorthodox MC also demanded total compliance. You have put yourselves and your story out there with their advice & blessing.

You seem to be putting a lot in the hands of others. Why couldn't you schedule your own polygraph appointment? Your sister had to do this, inefficient at best but OK, you did make them privy to the details.

If asking for clarification or being skeptical is too much for you to deal with, perhaps this reconciliation immersion therapy is also. 

I've had some unreal things happen to me in my life. I could point any skeptic, critic or cynic to the newspaper articles, media archives...I wouldn't expect people (especially on an Internet forum dealing with betrayal) to buy anything I put out there blindly and question nothing. Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction. People want to know what they are reading though. If I pick up a book and it seems a bit too perfectly aligned (think James Frey "A Million Little Pieces") I'm going to roll eyes and question, as many did in that case, and were right to do so.

I've followed this thread, people are treading lightly. That's my input and as has been said before, it's free.


----------



## sandc

WalterWhite420 said:


> Please sandc, I've respected your input immensely. If you have something substantive to say (or ANY question or commentary about my favorite herb), then I'd love to hear it. And that's the truth.
> 
> Or call out Carrie and give her honest criticism. That's fine too. Be tough but fair with her.


Anything I have to say about your favorite herb I would most definitely NOT say it in a public forum. 

Here is my challenge to Carrie. Come back, take your punches, and don't punch back. You may learn something about yourself.


----------



## Carrie420

kristin2349 said:


> Part of criticizing can either be a measure of honest questioning or disbelief. It still has its place. People have been more than fair to you and your wife.
> 
> You are on a public forum. Cherry picking posts and advice is your choice. For two people who seem very educated and strong willed, both you and Carrie have posted indications that border on blind devotion to your "PREMIUM priced" MC. You initially posted your IC insisted you post here. Your unorthodox MC also demanded total compliance. You have put yourselves and your story out there with their advice & blessing.
> 
> You seem to be putting a lot in the hands of others. Why couldn't you schedule your own polygraph appointment? Your sister had to do this, inefficient at best but OK, you did make them privy to the details.
> 
> If asking for clarification or being skeptical is too much for you to deal with, perhaps this reconciliation immersion therapy is also.
> 
> I've had some unreal things happen to me in my life. I could point any skeptic, critic or cynic to the newspaper articles, media archives...I wouldn't expect people (especially on an Internet forum dealing with betrayal) to buy anything I put out there blindly and question nothing. Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction. People want to know what they are reading though. If I pick up a book and it seems a bit too perfectly aligned (think James Frey "A Million Little Pieces") I'm going to roll eyes and question, as many did in that case, and were right to do so.
> 
> I've followed this thread, people are treading lightly. That's my input and as has been said before, it's free.


Thanks Kristen. Carrie is logged in, but this is Jack.

These are the kind of posts I want to see.

My sister is a criminal defense lawyer. She knows who to contact for polygraphs. She lets me get her appointments with MD specialists I know, because I can get her an appt quickly. I let her reciprocate by handling the polygraph appt, although she misunderstood about the date.

I'm not cherry picking. Honest, criticizing, questioning posts are welcome. But only if they are not obviously meant as sarcasm or insults.

Thanks Kristin. Please post more often here.


----------



## sandc

One other thing Walter, the timeline of this whole thing is foggy to us. The info came to us out of sequence. Maybe if you feel like it, write a timeline of what happened and when it happened. I'm also having a little trouble following what happened and when.


----------



## Carrie420

sandc said:


> Anything I have to say about your favorite herb I would most definitely NOT say it in a public forum.
> 
> Here is my challenge to Carrie. Come back, take your punches, and don't punch back. You may learn something about yourself.


I'm here sandc. Help in whatever way you can. I'll answer your questions. I'm not running from anything.

Thank you. Ask away.

Honest questions and criticism are welcome. Shots will be retaliated against.


----------



## Carrie420

bandit.45 said:


> Here are the keys:
> 
> 1) Absolute honesty in every aspect of your lives. There is no privacy in marriage. If there are other secrets you have been hiding (financial infidelity, debt, flirtatious corresponences or sexting with other men, etc.) now is the time to lay it all out for Walter to look at.
> 
> 2) Absolute transparency. Again, there are no more secrets in your marriage. No more going behind locked doors, no more going into other rooms to talk to someone on your cell phone, no more spending money without Walter's agreement, no more leaving the house and going off for extended periods without letting Walter know where you are. Buy a GPS tracker that will work with Walter's computer or smart phone and have it installed in your car so he will know where you are at all times, or, have one of those apps installed in your phone that will allow him to know where you are. Allow Walter to look at your cell phone on demand. Give him all passwords to your phone and computer.
> 
> 3) Joint marriage counseling, individual counseling for you and PTSD counseling for Walter.
> 
> 4) No more male friendships, none, except with men from your immediate family or those old friends who Walter knows and trusts implicitly. This is a privelege you lost. Any casual contact with any old ex-boyfriends or sex partners? Get them out of your life and never contact them again.
> 
> 5) Take down your FB and MySpace pages.
> 
> 6) No GNOs (Girls' Nights Out) unless it's with a church quilting club or somesuch benign hen party.
> 
> 7) Unlimited BJs.
> 
> 8) Bang his brains out.
> 
> 9) Never stop apologizing. If you have to say I'm sorry 10,000,000 times over the next ten years, then that's just what you need to do.
> 
> 10) Read _His Needs Her Needs_ together and do it.


Thanks Bandit. I've already ordered "His Needs Her Needs", as suggested by our MC.

BTW, I've got (7) and (8) fully covered. You won't hear Jack complaining. I hope you're as well taken care of.


----------



## Carrie420

sandc said:


> One other thing Walter, the timeline of this whole thing is foggy to us. The info came to us out of sequence. Maybe if you feel like it, write a timeline of what happened and when it happened. I'm also having a little trouble following what happened and when.


As is Jack, sandc. He's gone to the grocery store right now, but I can tell you exactly how he would answer your question(s). His memory of VERY DETAILED chronology after DDay is somewhat tainted (his words, not mine) due to his heavy pot and alcohol use at that time.

If you have specific question regarding the timeline, ask Jack. I'm sure he will answer your question as honestly as he can.


----------



## standinginthegap

It's nice to hear you have decided to R with your wife. And that even though she stepped out of your marriage she seems to be sorry and wants to R as well. I currently have a husband who is having an affair that I am well aware of but I am the only one seeking R right now that's why I have the user name I have. But I do believe in God power to restore and have lost hope, make sure you do the same and when there are moments that you feel like this isn't worth it know that it is


----------



## the guy

I thinks its cool you guys are working your sh1t out ...hell me and my old lady are doing good hell we're doing great. It takes two

And your user names are awsome...tweekers and stoners can't beat that...you guys just have some trippy user names, thats all

Ya I know ain't adding much but what the hell I just felt like posting even if it aint adding much...funny thing about forums,,isn't it?


----------



## Carrie420

the guy said:


> I thinks its cool you guys are working your sh1t out ...hell me and my old lady are doing good hell we're doing great. It takes two
> 
> And your user names are awsome...tweekers and stoners can't beat that...you guys just have some trippy user names, thats all
> 
> Ya I know ain't adding much but what the hell I just felt like posting even if it aint adding much...funny thing about forums,,isn't it?


Your encouraging posts are welcome. Thank you.


----------



## Carrie420

standinginthegap said:


> It's nice to hear you have decided to R with your wife. And that even though she stepped out of your marriage she seems to be sorry and wants to R as well. I currently have a husband who is having an affair that I am well aware of but I am the only one seeking R right now that's why I have the user name I have. But I do believe in God power to restore and have lost hope, make sure you do the same and when there are moments that you feel like this isn't worth it know that it is


Thank you. I wish you the best.


----------



## Carrie420

Foghorn said:


> Wow, look what I've been missing. Still, I will resist the rather weak urge to catch on this thread.


You won't be missed.


----------



## sandc

Carrie420 said:


> As is Jack, sandc. He's gone to the grocery store right now, but I can tell you exactly how he would answer your question(s). His memory of VERY DETAILED chronology after DDay is somewhat tainted (his words, not mine) due to his heavy pot and alcohol use at that time.
> 
> If you have specific question regarding the timeline, ask Jack. I'm sure he will answer your question as honestly as he can.


Then can you write it?


----------



## Carrie420

sandc said:


> Then can you write it?


Meaning you want me to write the timeline?


----------



## adriana

Carrie420 said:


> I've got (7) and (8) fully covered. You won't hear Jack complaining.



Carrie, pics or it never happened. :rofl:


----------



## Carrie420

adriana said:


> Carrie, pics or it never happened. :rofl:


Adriana,

I got pics AND videos...yes I have...but I ain't sharing Jack with anybody.


----------



## dogman

WalterWhite420 said:


> Carrie and I went to a marriage workshop seminar today. The theme was "Building Trust". It was good. It lasted 6 hours, and included some good exercises.
> 
> Then I had my weekly IC session at 4:00.
> 
> My IC talked about this thread. He's the one who suggested I come here in the first place and post my story. And after I agreed to R with Carrie, he suggested that she come here and post as well (in this thread). Today I found out why. He actually reads this thread every other day or so.
> 
> He was very interested to see how I would react to the members here kind of "kicking Carrie around a bit". He knew it would happen. And she was indeed challenged by, and faced hard questions from, many of you. She was also attacked a bit by just a very few of you. A nice spectrum.
> 
> And my IC wanted to see my reaction to that. Again, I just found this out today. He set this "test" up himself, with unknowing help from me, Carrie, and many of you.
> 
> He was pleased with my reaction to the treatment of Carrie. He said that when she was "kicked around a bit", that I defended her to a reasonable degree, but also still let her face tough (but fair) treatment and questions head-on without overreacting.
> 
> He was pleased with that. He said that if I was willing to let her face tough questions and comments from you (the honest, non-attacking ones), then he felt comfortable that I was being objective in my R attempt. He feels that I'm emotionally ready for R.
> 
> Thank you all.


I've read a lot of threads on here and the truth is Carrie has not been kicked around at all. She actually is over defensive.

People on here have been inundated with troll threads lately and challenging you both on various points is self protection for the people on here who are actually afraid to get emotionally involved because they've been tricked before.

The truth is I've seen other wandering wives on here who were treated far worse. There really is no need to answer the posts that are condescending. Just ignore them.


----------



## Carrie420

dogman said:


> I've read a lot of threads on here and the truth is Carrie has not been kicked around at all. She actually is over defensive.
> 
> People on here have been inundated with troll threads lately and challenging you both on various points is self protection for the people on here who are actually afraid to get emotionally involved because they've been tricked before.
> 
> The truth is I've seen other wandering wives on here who were treated far worse. There really is no need to answer the posts that are condescending. Just ignore them.


Dog,

Jack here.

She was kicked around a bit...relative to what, I don't know...we're new here...maybe our tolerance is below standard here...i don't know...


----------



## SoulStorm

Carrie,

I have seen written what you have been doing for Jack and it is well within remorseful arenas.

I have a question for you;

What were your feelings when you realized Jack had caught you in the act?

What was the first thought that came to your mind?


----------



## jim123

WalterWhite420 said:


> I think if she had not been caught, she would still be doing him today. Which strengthens my resolve to refuse her pleadings to R.


How would this be possible?


----------



## Carrie420

SoulStorm said:


> Carrie,
> 
> I have seen written what you have been doing for Jack and it is well within remorseful arenas.
> 
> I have a question for you;
> 
> What were your feelings when you realized Jack had caught you in the act?
> 
> What was the first thought that came to your mind?


Sickness. Panic. Sickness. Panic. Rinse and repeat over and over.


----------



## SoulStorm

Carrie420 said:


> Sickness. Panic. Sickness. Panic. Rinse and repeat over and over.


Good,,,
Who were you more concerned about...Jack or yourself?


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Carrie420 said:


> Adriana,
> 
> I got pics AND videos...yes I have...but I ain't sharing Jack with anybody.


Jack said earlier that you showed a "dwindling desire for sex" leading up to D day. Can you explain?


----------



## Carrie420

SoulStorm said:


> Good,,,
> Who were you more concerned about...Jack or yourself?


I'd like to say Jack...but I know it was myself...it was horrid...


----------



## SoulStorm

Carrie420 said:


> I'd like to say Jack...but I know it was myself...it was horrid...



Good ..That's an honest answer

It was horrid to the millionth power for Jack

Self preservation is a reflex action

Remorse is a voluntary action

True love can be measured by your ability to remove self preservation and do a voluntary selfless act

Always remember from this point,

If you are doing something in Reconciliation is it for you or Jack


----------



## sandc

Carrie420 said:


> Meaning you want me to write the timeline?


Yes, if you can. You seem to have a clearer recollection of that time.


----------



## manfromlamancha

If I understand this correct you got your Mila Kunis look alike wife to write a NC letter to a dead man ?


----------



## Carrie420

manfromlamancha said:


> If I understand this correct you got your Mila Kunis look alike wife to write a NC letter to a dead man ?


Re-read the timeline a bit. NC letter not sent to dead man.


----------



## Carrie420

sandc said:


> Yes, if you can. You seem to have a clearer recollection of that time.


I will sandc tomorrow.


----------



## Carrie420

SoulStorm said:


> Good ..That's an honest answer
> 
> It was horrid to the millionth power for Jack
> 
> Self preservation is a reflex action
> 
> Remorse is a voluntary action
> 
> True love can be measured by your ability to remove self preservation and do a voluntary selfless act
> 
> Always remember from this point,
> 
> If you are doing something in Reconciliation is it for you or Jack


Thank you SS. It was indeed horrid to the millionth power for Jack.


----------



## dogman

Quote:
Originally Posted by WalterWhite420 
I think if she had not been caught, she would still be doing him today. Which strengthens my resolve to refuse her pleadings to R.

You know how the show "lost" got kinda....confusing? And then it ended weird.

I loved that show at first, then later, I hated it.

Just saying..


----------



## Carrie420

dogman said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by WalterWhite420
> I think if she had not been caught, she would still be doing him today. Which strengthens my resolve to refuse her pleadings to R.
> 
> You know how the show "lost" got kinda....confusing? And then it ended weird.
> 
> I loved that show at first, then later, I hated it.
> 
> Just saying..


We never watched "Lost".

I believe Jack addressed this in a recent post as a question over figures of speech.

The truth is that Jack was affected more by his death than he's letting on. It's come up in MC and IC. It was a "trigger" for Jack. I'm not surprised he didn't want to mention it. He's found it much easier to talk about since our decision to R. His IC has helped him release suppressed emotions.


----------



## bandit.45

Carrie420 said:


> Thanks Bandit. I've already ordered "His Needs Her Needs", as suggested by our MC.
> 
> BTW, I've got (7) and (8) fully covered. You won't hear Jack complaining. *I hope you're as well taken care of*.


No I'm single and don't date. But thank you for the well wishes.


----------



## bfree

Carrie420 said:


> Sickness. Panic. Sickness. Panic. Rinse and repeat over and over.


Strange, those are the exact feelings I had when I found out my exW was cheating. The more I deal with WS's and BS's the more I think there is less difference in emotions than I originally believed.


----------



## warlock07

SoulStorm said:


> Good ..That's an honest answer
> 
> It was horrid to the millionth power for Jack
> 
> Self preservation is a reflex action
> 
> Remorse is a voluntary action
> 
> True love can be measured by your ability to remove self preservation and do a voluntary selfless act
> 
> Always remember from this point,
> 
> If you are doing something in Reconciliation is it for you or Jack


You sound like a teacher reprimanding a student...


----------



## Carrie420

bandit.45 said:


> No I'm single and don't date. But thank you for the well wishes.


As long as you're happy...march on.


----------



## warlock07

Carrie420 said:


> Adriana,
> 
> I got pics AND videos...yes I have...but I ain't sharing Jack with anybody.


That awkward moment....


----------



## warlock07

> You are on a public forum. Cherry picking posts and advice is your choice. For two people who seem very educated and strong willed, both you and Carrie have posted indications that border on blind devotion to your "PREMIUM priced" MC. You initially posted your IC insisted you post here. Your unorthodox MC also demanded total compliance. You have put yourselves and your story out there with their advice & blessing.
> 
> You seem to be putting a lot in the hands of others.


Had the exact same feeling.TAM is a good resource but only to an extent. We have our share of crazies here. People who shouldn't be giving advice and all.. Keep perspective and take care


----------



## SoulStorm

warlock07 said:


> You sound like a teacher reprimanding a student...


Not intentionally warlock lol


----------



## bfree

warlock07 said:


> We have our share of crazies here. People who shouldn't be giving advice and all..


*scratches chin*

I wonder who he could be referring to.....:scratchhead::rofl:


----------



## happyman64

Carrie420 said:


> As long as you're happy...march on.


Oh Carrie.

The Bandito has dated. 

Read his original thread if you would like to see where he is coming from.

Or maybe you should wait for a little while because Bandits story might ring to close to home.

It will shed light on where some of our fellow Tammers are coming from in their viewpoints if you read their threads.

HM


----------



## vellocet

Carrie420 said:


> Adriana,
> 
> I got pics AND videos...yes I have...but I ain't sharing Jack with anybody.


But Jack had to temporarily share you with someone else 

Not that I'd ever condone it or suggest it seriously, but just for argument's sake, what would be your thoughts on giving Jack a one night hall pass?


----------



## happyman64

vellocet said:


> But Jack had to temporarily share you with someone else
> 
> Not that I'd ever condone it or suggest it seriously, but just for argument's sake, what would be your thoughts on giving Jack a one night hall pass?


Vellocet

Read back through Jacks thread. He has already received his hall pass.

I think both of them will agree with me.

And IMHO hall passes very rarely work or make anything better when two people are reconciling.

Yes the wayward spouse went and had sex outside of the marriage. Why on earth would the battered spouse have sex outside the marriage?

A. Revenge.
B. To even the score.
C. To prove they are as immature as their wayward spouse?
D. To create more hard feelings for both spouses in the marriage?
E. All of the above.

When we do see a battered spouse take a hall pass they usually come back here and tell that the good feelings they got from the experience were short lived.

In the end they felt as if they were now on the same level as their wayward spouse.

So in most cases but not all, hall passes do not work.

But don't take my word for it. Just do a search on revenge affairs on TAM and read.

HM


----------



## vellocet

happyman64 said:


> Vellocet
> 
> Read back through Jacks thread. He has already received his hall pass.


Ah ok. Haven't read it in a while, lots of pages.

So he got the hall pass, did he make use of it, or was it uneventful?



> I think both of them will agree with me.
> 
> And IMHO hall passes very rarely work or make anything better when two people are reconciling.


Oh no, I absolutely agree. I was just saying for arguments sake since she said she wasn't going to share him.

I'd never condone it and know it solves nothing.

Since I didn't know he got one, was just wondering what a cheater would think that said they won't share their spouse when WS had already been shared.

Just a question out of curiosity, never would I seriously suggest a BS should get one or revenge cheat.


With all that said, Mr. White....treat yourself to a bottle of Dimple Pinch


----------



## manfromlamancha

Carrie420 said:


> Re-read the timeline a bit. NC letter not sent to dead man.


Re-read this from start to finish several times - yes it was!


----------



## bilbo99

Accidental post


----------



## EI

vellocet said:


> But Jack had to temporarily share you with someone else
> 
> Not that I'd ever condone it or suggest it seriously, but just for argument's sake, what would be your thoughts on giving Jack a one night hall pass?



I know this isn't my thread, so please forgive the thread jack. I just had to respond to this question. I don't believe that as a WS I was ever asked this question on TAM. But, if I had been, the answer would have been a definitive, insistent, categorical, vehement, unequivocal, cogent (look up all of the synonyms) "NO."  I would honestly have to question the motives and the logic of any person, who is seriously attempting to reconcile, whether BS or WS, who thinks this is a good idea. 

In Jack's and Carrie's case there was no "hall pass," per se. They were separated and Jack intended to file for divorce. He planned to move forward without Carrie and he had informed her of his intentions. They had not yet begun their reconciliation attempt. That situation and a hall pass are two different scenarios. Carrie may be hurt that Jack slept with another woman (because believe it or not, even WS's are human) but she really doesn't have a right to be angry or to hold it against him. But, this "hall pass" idea, during reconciliation, is a very foolish idea. IMHO. It will never even the score, so it simply throws more dysfunction and confusion into the fire.


----------



## bandit.45

EI said:


> I know this isn't my thread, so please forgive the thread jack. I just had to respond to this question. I don't believe that as a WS I was ever asked this question on TAM. But, if I had been, the answer would have been a definitive, insistent, categorical, vehement, unequivocal, cogent (look up all of the synonyms) "NO."  I would honestly have to question the motives and the logic of any person, who is seriously attempting to reconcile, whether BS or WS, who thinks this is a good idea.
> 
> In Jack's and Carrie's case there was no "hall pass," per se. They were separated and Jack intended to file for divorce. He planned to move forward without Carrie and he had informed her of his intentions. They had not yet begun their reconciliation attempt. That situation and a hall pass are two different scenarios. Carrie may be hurt that Jack slept with another woman (because believe it or not, even WS's are human) but she really doesn't have a right to be angry or to hold it against him. But, this "hall pass" idea, during reconciliation, is a very foolish idea. IMHO. It will never even the store, so it simply throws more dysfunction and confusion into the fire.


Agreed. 

If all things were to be equal, Carrie would have gotten to beat the hell out of the woman Jack spent New Years with. 

But that's just it. Nothing can really ever be equal. It wasn't just sex on Carrie's part, it was betrayal. How could Jack betray her now?


----------



## WyshIknew

EI said:


> I know this isn't my thread, so please forgive the thread jack. I just had to respond to this question. I don't believe that as a WS I was ever asked this question on TAM. But, if I had been, the answer would have been a definitive, insistent, categorical, vehement, unequivocal, cogent (look up all of the synonyms) "NO."  I would honestly have to question the motives and the logic of any person, who is seriously attempting to reconcile, whether BS or WS, who thinks this is a good idea.
> 
> In Jack's and Carrie's case there was no "hall pass," per se. They were separated and Jack intended to file for divorce. He planned to move forward without Carrie and he had informed her of his intentions. They had not yet begun their reconciliation attempt. That situation and a hall pass are two different scenarios. Carrie may be hurt that Jack slept with another woman (because believe it or not, even WS's are human) but she really doesn't have a right to be angry or to hold it against him. But, this "hall pass" idea, during reconciliation, is a very foolish idea. IMHO. It will never even the store, so it simply throws more dysfunction and confusion into the fire.


You can't put out a fire with petrol. (gasoline)


----------



## Rubicon

"You can't put out a fire with petrol. (gasoline)"

Well, actually, yes you can. By adding enough gas to a fire to cause combustion, you can burn all the oxygen out of a fire and extinguish it.

but I digress.....


----------



## nuclearnightmare

nuclearnightmare said:


> Jack said earlier that you showed a "dwindling desire for sex" leading up to D day. Can you explain?


??

Jack or Carrie:
The reason I asked is because Jack describes his wife as having the "sex drive of 2 women." Carrie is being presented as a sort of extreme HD person. comment??


----------



## Rubicon

Well, I know we're supposed to all be "believers" but I think we know the real answer.... She took up Sewing....


----------



## Carrie420

vellocet said:


> But Jack had to temporarily share you with someone else
> 
> Not that I'd ever condone it or suggest it seriously, but just for argument's sake, what would be your thoughts on giving Jack a one night hall pass?


Jack had a ONS on New Year's Eve. Of course it hurts bad to know that, but it was my fault. I figured in all those months we were separated that Jack had probably been with another woman at some point. I was prepared to hear that. I deserved it.

All that's important to me now is me and Jack from 2 weeks ago forward.


----------



## Carrie420

Rubicon said:


> Well, I know we're supposed to all be "believers" but I think we know the real answer.... She took up Sewing....


Nice shot. But I have breaking news for you: it didn't hurt me.


----------



## Carrie420

nuclearnightmare said:


> ??
> 
> Jack or Carrie:
> The reason I asked is because Jack describes his wife as having the "sex drive of 2 women." Carrie is being presented as a sort of extreme HD person. comment??


It's complicated.

I was deep into Tantric sex at that time. Jack and I took up Tantric about 10 years ago. It took a long time and a lot of practice (and a paid councilor), but we finally achieved the Tantric heights advertised. It's unbelievable and we've enjoyed it for years.

But it's also work, and takes a long time each session. Jack's desire for Tantric declined, and yet that's about all I wanted. I don't know if I was overly hormonal at that time or what. But my sex drive was high for even me (I'm not being obnoxious; I've always been driven sexually).

So although Jack and I were still sexually driven, we digressed in our preference of activities in bed. That created disagreements and disappointments for both of us, which further derailed our sex life. Jack interpreted this as me having a dwindling sex drive.


----------



## Carrie420

happyman64 said:


> Oh Carrie.
> 
> The Bandito has dated.
> 
> Read his original thread if you would like to see where he is coming from.
> 
> Or maybe you should wait for a little while because Bandits story might ring to close to home.
> 
> It will shed light on where some of our fellow Tammers are coming from in their viewpoints if you read their threads.
> 
> HM


I just wanted to say that I didn't mean anything derogatory toward Bandit. I was just joking with him. He's been one of the most helpful posters for Jack.


----------



## Carrie420

manfromlamancha said:


> Re-read this from start to finish several times - yes it was!


I've read it, and you're wrong. I'm not being a ***** about it, but you're wrong. And I know what was done in that regard because I did it.


----------



## Rubicon

Well in your world where everything is about you I can understand why you would think its a shot at you but in fact it is just what a lot of us are thinking. I just pointed out the white elephant in the room, the big obvious white elephant. 

And of course it didn't hurt you, What you did hurt Jack. Sociopaths rarely are concerned with what others say and do so I didn't think for a second you would be bothered in the least.


----------



## Carrie420

Rubicon said:


> Well in your world where everything is about you I can understand why you would think its a shot at you but in fact it is just what a lot of us are thinking. I just pointed out the white elephant in the room, the big obvious white elephant.
> 
> And of course it didn't hurt you, What you did hurt Jack. Sociopaths rarely are concerned with what others say and do so I didn't think for a second you would be bothered in the least.


In my world right now, everything is about Jack. If you see a white elephant in the room, please ride it off into the sunset. OK, that was out of line. I apologize.

If you have honest commentary or criticism, it's welcome. Be as tough as you want, but sarcasm helps neither the poster nor the "postee".

How can you help us?


----------



## SoulStorm

I hope that you do pass the poly and that you are being truthful. It would be a shame to have done all this work and have it wrecked with a failed poly. 
Warlock said I sounded like a teacher reprimanding a student,

That was not the intention, however good teachers teach from experience to help students along the way. I was just passing the good stuff I learned along.

Honesty..Transparency..Communication..Empathy..and Remorse

Those are good ingredients for a WSto know for reconciliation


----------



## Carrie420

SoulStorm said:


> I hope that you do pass the poly and that you are being truthful. It would be a shame to have done all this work and have it wrecked with a failed poly.
> Warlock said I sounded like a teacher reprimanding a student,
> 
> That was not the intention, however good teachers teach from experience to help students along the way. I was just passing the good stuff I learned along.
> 
> Honesty..Transparency..Communication..Empathy..and Remorse
> 
> Those are good ingredients for a WSto know for reconciliation


I will pass the poly. Because everything I've told Jack is the truth.

Thank you for your help and advice. Jack and I appreciate it.


----------



## raven3321

Carrie420 said:


> Adriana,
> 
> I got pics AND videos...yes I have...but I ain't sharing Jack with anybody.


I don't think it's Jack most people would be looking at......just saying.


----------



## WalterWhite420

I had a bad day today. I took a small step back.

For some reason, my triggers occur only while I’m away from Carrie; never when I’m with her. They’re especially bad at night. Beside her in bed, while she’s asleep.

I didn’t sleep at all last night. Carrie woke up a 4:30am and found me in my study, which eventually lead to several hours of talking. 

I hope we made some progress. I went to sleep this afternoon and slept a long time.


----------



## Variance

I stumbled across this site today via Reddit and I have to say the moment I opened this post my heart was breaking for Jack. I didn't stop reading until I reached the last page to find out where your story went. I really wanted some kind of silver lining and was happy to see you guys giving it a shot. There are a lot of people who will decide on divorce, and they aren't wrong to feel that way, it's just nice to see someone giving it at least ONE shot (or 2nd I suppose).

There really isn't a lot I can contribute that hasn't been said in the last 70 pages, and I don't see the need to dog-pile on someone over and over. Carrie isn't going to feel the real depth of her actions for some time and the hardest days are still ahead for both of them. I think she realizes she's done something terrible to her marriage, but also is just human like the rest of us. There's no excuse for it but she's proven she deserves a second chance and I believe she's earned a lot of credit. She can't take it back and Jack may never really forgive her completely. 

What you lost before D-day was communication, something vital to a marriage. Through your counseling I'm sure you're working to rebuild that as evidenced by your homework. This isn't a slight against Jack, it doesn't excuse the act but it's on both of you to fix it now. You both mutually agreed to a reconciliation and need to give it 110% like you have so far. 

Having been cheated on in a past relationship I understand the feeling Jack had, it's among the worst emotions I've ever experienced. Reading this story brings back all those memories. I'm in a happy marriage now and I try to work to make it a happy one daily. It's hard work but it's also worth it, but I think you guys know that by now and I hope you both continue to push for a 2nd chance.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Carrie420 said:


> dog we are here for help. That's it really. And Jack (and thus we) have been helped so much. We're making progress at rebuilding our marriage and lives together.
> 
> I'm committed to looking deep inside myself to find if something is in need of fixing. I attend IC, MC, and talk with Jack about it. We're working through it. We've been back together only about 2 weeks now. It's going to take time.


I do not think there is anything wrong with you what is needing to be fixed.

If you read the book 'Sperm War' you will understand the underlying driving forces of nature why men and women do what they do when their shields are weak. 

Basicly a man's nature is to go after anything with a skirt, and woman's nature is to gain the best offspring and facilities she can get.

And that's the view of me, being a kind of orthodox christian.

So the nature of sin is clear, the lust is not an internal error, but a programmed genetical loop.

That does not do away with the task we have got, or have set oursellves (for the non-believers), we must try to build ourselves to the best man or woman we can be. 

When we fall, we have to get up.


----------



## dogman

See_Listen_Love said:


> I do not think there is anything wrong with you what is needing to be fixed.
> 
> If you read the book 'Sperm War' you will understand the underlying driving forces of nature why men and women do what they do when their shields are weak.
> 
> Basicly a man's nature is to go after anything with a skirt, and woman's nature is to gain the best offspring and facilities she can get.
> 
> And that's the view of me, being a kind of orthodox christian.
> 
> So the nature of sin is clear, the lust is not an internal error, but a programmed genetical loop.
> 
> That does not do away with the task we have got, or have set oursellves (for the non-believers), we must try to build ourselves to the best man or woman we can be.
> 
> When we fall, we have to get up.


I get it but I don't believe in the "caveman excuse".
The fact is when a person is capable of this level of betrayal it goes beyond the subconscious need to have this or that offspring.

This is about THE ABILITY TO BETRAY AND LIE to the level of Phucking another man in her husbands bed.

We are all capable of sex and weakness but this is more than that.
Ignore it...blame it on we are all human and the issue will still be there in a couple years when this all seems distant. ....

I could have done this deflection but I chose to dig into my personal psyche instead of human psyche, and I found where I am lacking and now I focus on those parts. Kinda like lifting weights, I focus on the things that need work. The trick is to admit the things that need work. Then work on those.


----------



## staystrong

Great, a new excuse: "The sperm made me do it" 

"His sperm were paying me more attention."
"His sperm was there for my egg when you weren't".
"Your sperm are controlling."
"Your sperm are boring."
"Your sperm were late to pick me up for work when it was raining."


I agree with dogma.

Those biological factors may be true, and it's good to be educated about them, but it really comes down to mastering yourself as a person.

If a man cheats on his wife, and she asks him why, do you think the man could get away with saying "My love, I could not help myself, you must know that I am genetically programmed to seek multiple sexual partners in order to spread my DNA further. I am hard-wired to select mates and I am not aware at a conscious level of who I will be attracted to or what my impulses will drive me to do. Thanks for your understanding." 

Translation = People get horny for other people. 

You can make a science out of it but that's what it comes down to.


----------



## adriana

See_Listen_Love said:


> I do not think there is anything wrong with you what is needing to be fixed.
> 
> If you read the book 'Sperm War' you will understand the underlying driving forces of nature why men and women do what they do when their shields are weak.
> 
> Basicly a man's nature is to go after anything with a skirt, and woman's nature is to gain the best offspring and facilities she can get.
> 
> And that's the view of me, being a kind of orthodox christian.
> 
> So the nature of sin is clear, the lust is not an internal error, but a programmed genetical loop.
> 
> That does not do away with the task we have got, or have set oursellves (for the non-believers), we must try to build ourselves to the best man or woman we can be.
> 
> When we fall, we have to get up.



The evolutionary/biological factors behind cheating are always an intriguing topic to read about but ultimately it all boils down to simple question... do I want to cheat or not? And, if I answer yes, then my own sense of entitlement and plain selfishness will be two the most important factors in allowing myself to do so.


----------



## WyshIknew

Rubicon said:


> "You can't put out a fire with petrol. (gasoline)"
> 
> Well, actually, yes you can. By adding enough gas to a fire to cause combustion, you can burn all the oxygen out of a fire and extinguish it.
> 
> but I digress.....


I knew somebody would post that.

Nerd. 

Have you ever tried it?

I'd rather use a fire extinguisher.


----------



## Carrie420

Variance said:


> I stumbled across this site today via Reddit and I have to say the moment I opened this post my heart was breaking for Jack. I didn't stop reading until I reached the last page to find out where your story went. I really wanted some kind of silver lining and was happy to see you guys giving it a shot. There are a lot of people who will decide on divorce, and they aren't wrong to feel that way, it's just nice to see someone giving it at least ONE shot (or 2nd I suppose).
> 
> There really isn't a lot I can contribute that hasn't been said in the last 70 pages, and I don't see the need to dog-pile on someone over and over. Carrie isn't going to feel the real depth of her actions for some time and the hardest days are still ahead for both of them. I think she realizes she's done something terrible to her marriage, but also is just human like the rest of us. There's no excuse for it but she's proven she deserves a second chance and I believe she's earned a lot of credit. She can't take it back and Jack may never really forgive her completely.
> 
> What you lost before D-day was communication, something vital to a marriage. Through your counseling I'm sure you're working to rebuild that as evidenced by your homework. This isn't a slight against Jack, it doesn't excuse the act but it's on both of you to fix it now. You both mutually agreed to a reconciliation and need to give it 110% like you have so far.
> 
> Having been cheated on in a past relationship I understand the feeling Jack had, it's among the worst emotions I've ever experienced. Reading this story brings back all those memories. I'm in a happy marriage now and I try to work to make it a happy one daily. It's hard work but it's also worth it, but I think you guys know that by now and I hope you both continue to push for a 2nd chance.


Thank you very much.


----------



## Carrie420

Rubicon said:


> "You can't put out a fire with petrol. (gasoline)"
> 
> Well, actually, yes you can. By adding enough gas to a fire to cause combustion, you can burn all the oxygen out of a fire and extinguish it.
> 
> but I digress.....


Try that with 1,2,3-trinitroxypropane... 

It doesn't need oxygen to combust...

Just joking with you Rubi...

You own a Honda Rubicon? Ride the Rubicon trail? Own a Jeep Wrangler Rubicon? Jack and I each ride a Yamaha Grizzly 700.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Yeah, I was expecting the comments that it is ultimately what one *wants* to cheat or not.

That is really not the case. It is about herecy to mention that on TAM. People see that as an excuse they cannot blame the WS for.

Science is something that can be hard to deal with.


----------



## dogman

See_Listen_Love said:


> Yeah, I was expecting the comments that it is ultimately what one *wants* to cheat or not.
> 
> That is really not the case. It is about herecy to mention that on TAM. People see that as an excuse they cannot blame the WS for.
> 
> Science is something that can be hard to deal with.


So if I want to use the "caveman" excuse/science excuse. I should be able to choke the OM to death and get a pass. I'm not talking about walking in on them and flipping out. I'm saying planning it for a week and then luring him over and choking him I'll his eyes pop out.
Most of the cheaters on here that we talk about have some planning involved in their affairs. If they can use the caveman excuse then so should I. ....except.....I will go to jail and there will be no mercy. Even though the caveman in me is programmed to destroy anyone who might pose a threat to my woman who is to bear my genetic offspring.
This is all bullsnot and a nice way for some to excuse behavior that is less than honorable, less than trustworthy. But THAT IS HARD FOR SOME TO DEAL WITH WHEN THEY LOOK IN THE MIRROR so they fall back on...science. " it's not my fault honey...Its the nature of mankind" (shrug) "sorry....I guess"


----------



## bandit.45

See_Listen_Love said:


> I do not think there is anything wrong with you what is needing to be fixed.
> 
> If you read the book 'Sperm War' you will understand the underlying driving forces of nature why men and women do what they do when their shields are weak.
> 
> Basicly a man's nature is to go after anything with a skirt, and woman's nature is to gain the best offspring and facilities she can get.
> 
> And that's the view of me, being a kind of orthodox christian.
> 
> So the nature of sin is clear, the lust is not an internal error, but a programmed genetical loop.
> 
> That does not do away with the task we have got, or have set oursellves (for the non-believers), we must try to build ourselves to the best man or woman we can be.
> 
> When we fall, we have to get up.


Sperm war....

I got this image in my head or little tadpoles dressed up in Japanese armor, running around with swords and pikes stabbing each other... like in a Kurosawa film.


----------



## pidge70

bandit.45 said:


> Sperm war....
> 
> I got this image in my head or little tadpoles dressed up in Japanese armor, running around with swords and pikes stabbing each other... like in a Kurosawa film.


:lol::rofl:


----------



## tdwal

bandit.45 said:


> Sperm war....
> 
> I got this image in my head or little tadpoles dressed up in Japanese armor, running around with swords and pikes stabbing each other... like in a Kurosawa film.


LOL my son went through the Navy Seal training and the first time he and his wife forgot to use protection she got pregnant. He said his swimmers were little Seals and they were strong swimmers.


----------



## WalterWhite420

tdwal said:


> LOL my son went through the Navy Seal training and the first time he and his wife forgot to use protection she got pregnant. He said his swimmers were little Seals and they were strong swimmers.


Thankfully my swimmers failed Seal training.


----------



## bandit.45

dogman said:


> So if I want to use the "caveman" excuse/science excuse. I should be able to choke the OM to death and get a pass. I'm not talking about walking in on them and flipping out. I'm saying planning it for a week and then luring him over and choking him I'll his eyes pop out.
> Most of the cheaters on here that we talk about have some planning involved in their affairs. If they can use the caveman excuse then so should I. ....except.....I will go to jail and there will be no mercy. Even though the caveman in me is programmed to destroy anyone who might pose a threat to my woman who is to bear my genetic offspring.
> This is all bullsnot and a nice way for some to excuse behavior that is less than honorable, less than trustworthy. But THAT IS HARD FOR SOME TO DEAL WITH WHEN THEY LOOK IN THE MIRROR so they fall back on...science. " it's not my fault honey...Its the nature of mankind" (shrug) "sorry....I guess"



You come from an interesting viewpoint. This begs an interesting question to all those who believe biology dictates our actions.

When Walter came in and drug the OM off Carrie and proceded to reconfigure the OM's face, I wonder if it flipped a switch in Carrie... that primal drive needing to seek the sperm from the more fit and robust male? 

If we are to accept the idea that primal urges are what drive everything in relationships, then that would explain why Carrie spent so many months doggedly trying to get Walter to come back to her even when he made it clear to her she was no better than dogsh!t stuck to his shoe. 

So love had nothing to do with it? 

Carrie, if Walter had not fought the OM, had just run out of the house crying like a wounded fop, would you have stil tried to R with him and win him back?


----------



## Carrie420

bandit.45 said:


> You come from an interesting viewpoint. This begs an interseting question to all those who believe biology dictates our actions.
> 
> When Walter came in and drug the OM off Carrie and proceded to reconfigure the OM's face, I wonder if it flipped a switch in Carrie... that primal drive needing to seek the sperm from the more fit and robust male?
> 
> If we are to accept the idea that primal urges are what drive everything in relationships, then that would explain why Carrie spent so many months doggedly trying to get Walter to come back to her even when he made it clear to her she was no better than dogsh!t stuck to his shoe.
> 
> So love had nothing to do with it?
> 
> Carrie, if Walter had not fought the OM, had just run out of the house crying like a wounded fop, would you have stil tried to R with him and win him back?


I see where you're coming from.

Jack saved my life in college, even though doing so seemed to ensure his own death. That had a HUGE impact on how I saw Jack after that. He was my KISH. It sent our love for one another to new heights.

Then a few months later, one of my former short-time boyfriends was at a cookout party and got a bit tipsy. Bad for him. He smarted off to Jack. Then he made a veiled sexual insult to me. And Jack sent him to the hospital. The fight terrified me, but afterward I remember feeling like a queen to have such a great guy defend me like that.

So yes, when women see men fight for them, it does have an effect. But romantic love can and does exist even in the absence of such chivalrous actions. 

To answer your last question: yes, I would have still pursued Jack and R. In my heart, I know I would have.


----------



## bandit.45

Courtly love. 

Cavemen beating each other with rocks for mating rights....

Knights trying to skewer each other with spears...

Fops fencing with rapiers...

Gangbangers popping caps at each other....

All for pvssy. 


Men are predictable creatures.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sandc

bandit.45 said:


> Courtly love.
> 
> Cavemen beating each other with rocks for mating rights....
> 
> Knights trying to skewer each other with spears...
> 
> Fops fencing with rapiers...
> 
> Gangbangers popping caps at each other....
> 
> All for pvssy.
> 
> 
> Men are predictable creatures.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And not being content with what they have. More, more, more.


----------



## staystrong

See_Listen_Love said:


> Yeah, I was expecting the comments that it is ultimately what one *wants* to cheat or not.
> 
> That is really not the case. It is about herecy to mention that on TAM. People see that as an excuse they cannot blame the WS for.
> 
> Science is something that can be hard to deal with.


What is your point, SLL?


Some women have affairs n part because they suffering from postpartum depression.

Some after menopause. Some in their 50s, 60s, and up.

Some because their husband is emotionally cold, unlike their kind and sensitive AP. 

Some have them to get a job, a promotion, get pregnant, take revenge, or because they want a more secure lifestyle. 

Some because they feel lonely while their husband is on travel or overseas in combat. 

Some because they've done it before and they enjoy the thrill.

Some because they got drunk and lost their inhibitions. 

Some because they feel pressured into it.

Some have affairs with other women. 


Affairs aren't one size fits all...


----------



## bandit.45

sandc said:


> And not being content with what they have. More, more, more.


Yep. 

You know, greed is one facet of cheating that rarely gets talked about. Beautiful successful people tend to be greedy people. I think this is why you see so much infidelity amongst celebrities.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Carrie420

bandit.45 said:


> Courtly love.
> 
> Cavemen beating each other with rocks for mating rights....
> 
> Knights trying to skewer each other with spears...
> 
> Fops fencing with rapiers...
> 
> Gangbangers popping caps at each other....
> 
> All for pvssy.
> 
> 
> Men are predictable creatures.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're right. Anyone who thinks mankind's nature is much different that it was during caveman days isn't a realist.

Men fighting over women, and women being impressed by it, are built-in biological responses to ensure survival of the fittest.

Why do the vast majority of people love sitting around a campfire at night, or watching a roaring blaze in a fireplace? Geneticists believe that this "desire" worked itself into our genes because our ancestors did it (out of necessity) for millions upon millions of years.

What is the basis for all racism? It's because most all animals are born with a natural desire to cling to those of their own species, and reject all others. We fear those that do not "look like us". It's a survival instinct. And yes, people are animals too.

What is the basis of "stage fright" in humans? It's the natural fear of "standing apart from the crowd" and being vulnerable. Lions don't have this fear, because they are completely predatory. But most animals that can be preyed upon (as early humans were) have this fear. The prey of lions DON'T WANT TO STAND OUT FROM THE CROWD. Because if they do, they're the ones the lions chase and eat. So they have "stage fright" to help ensure their survival.

These types of things may work themselves out of our genes in a million years or so, but we're stuck with them for now.


----------



## bandit.45

Carrie420 said:


> These types of things may work themselves out of our genes in a million years or so, but we're stuck with them for now.


But these impulses can be controlled through choice. 

This is what you have to work on Carrie. You need to get with your counselor and dissect the entire affair from beginning to end. Analyze every step you made towards ultimately betraying your husband and vows. 

You need to identify when and where you allowed the OM to cross your boundaries, and why you did so. If at the end, you cannot give Jack...Walter, whatever the fvck he calls himself... a decent answer as to WHY you did what you did, he can never heal and you will be ripe to make the same foolish choices again in the future, despite your protestations otherwise.


----------



## sandc

I choose to do what I choose to do. I conduct myself by a code of ethics and try not to vary from that code. Doesn't always work but it's always MY choice. I will not let myself become a slave to my baser instincts.

I think this is true for most. We can say that it is our caveman brain or the devil made me do it or whatever. In point of fact, we only carry out the desires of our heart. If our heart is full of our spouse, then we choose not to cheat. If our heart is wayward then we choose to cheat.


----------



## Anon Pink

Carrie420 said:


> What is the basis for all racism? It's because most all animals are born with a natural desire to cling to those of their own species, and reject all others. We fear those that do not "look like us". It's a survival instinct. And yes, people are animals too.


Fascinating! I had no idea racism was based on a survival instinct? I always thought it was a fear of the unknown? :scratchhead:


----------



## sandc

"Race" is a social construct. We can all inter-breed so we are members of the same race. The human race.


----------



## Carrie420

bandit.45 said:


> But these impulses can be controlled through choice.
> 
> This is what you have to work on Carrie. You need to get with your counselor and dissect the entire affair from beginning to end. Analyze every step you made towards ultimately betraying your husband and vows.
> 
> You need to identify when and where you allowed the OM to cross your boundaries, and why you did so. If at the end, you cannot give Jack...Walter, whatever the fvck he calls himself... a decent answer as to WHY you did what you did, he can never heal and you will be ripe to make the same foolish choices again in the future, despite your protestations otherwise.


Humans make certain choices, and can overcome some of their natural urges. We can and do teach our children to not be racist, etc, etc.

Yes bandit, I'm working through the whys. I'm heavily involved in IC and MC and talking with Jack. I want to see exactly why so I can have it fixed. Jack deserves that. I see now that I was going through a "queen complex" at the time. I was acting like a stupid deserving princess wannabe. My sex drive was through the roof. High for even me. I was having hot flashes and thought I was going through early menopause (I wasn't). Jack and I were disagreeing on our sexual desires at that time. We argued about sex for the first time in our lives. I wanted it with him, he wanted it with me, but we were just disconnected sexually for the first time ever. Jack's compliments to me tailed off. Which had never happened before. I see now that I drew so much of my self esteem from what Jack thought of me and said about me.

That's no excuse for the affair. I'm just giving you the collateral picture of that time in our lives. We still have a ways to go.


----------



## Carrie420

Anon Pink said:


> Fascinating! I had no idea racism was based on a survival instinct? I always thought it was a fear of the unknown? :scratchhead:


You're 100% right. Fear of the unknown is definitely a survival instinct.


----------



## Carrie420

sandc said:


> I choose to do what I choose to do. I conduct myself by a code of ethics and try not to vary from that code. Doesn't always work but it's always MY choice. I will not let myself become a slave to my baser instincts.
> 
> I think this is true for most. We can say that it is our caveman brain or the devil made me do it or whatever. In point of fact, we only carry out the desires of our heart. If our heart is full of our spouse, then we choose not to cheat. If our heart is wayward then we choose to cheat.


Respectfully sandc, humans are much more subject to their instincts than that. In fact, a lot of geneticists think that about 95% of all choices people make aren't choices at all. 

There are a lot of really, really smart people, both in genetics and philosophy, who firmly believe that humans and their choices are based solely upon the chemical makeup of their brain and the instincts coded within their genes. I don't subscribe to this theory 100%, but there are some compelling arguments to some of their reasoning.

One simple example is that a woman with Post partum depression can't CHOOSE not to be depressed. She's simply acting according to her imbalanced brain chemistry at the time.

I'm not trying to start a pissing contest. I'm just participating in an interesting discussion.


----------



## bandit.45

Carrie420 said:


> Humans make certain choices, and can overcome some of their natural urges. We can and do teach our children to not be racist, etc, etc.
> 
> Yes bandit, I'm working through the whys. I'm heavily involved in IC and MC and talking with Jack. I want to see exactly why so I can have it fixed. Jack deserves that. I see now that I was going through a "queen complex" at the time. I was acting like a stupid deserving princess wannabe. My sex drive was through the roof. High for even me. I was having hot flashes and thought I was going through early menopause (I wasn't). Jack and I were disagreeing on our sexual desires at that time. We argued about sex for the first time in our lives. I wanted it with him, he wanted it with me, but we were just disconnected sexually for the first time ever. Jack's compliments to me tailed off. Which had never happened before. I see now that I drew so much of my self esteem from what Jack thought of me and said about me.
> 
> That's no excuse for the affair. I'm just giving you the collateral picture of that time in our lives. We still have a ways to go.


You have to become self-validating Carrie. You have to learn to be emotionally independent of what others feel or think about you. Because Jack could die in a car wreck tomorrow, or he could walk away. If this happens, you have to be able to know that you are still attractive and have lots to offer the world...without someone telling you. 

Many people, both men and women, are for some reason unable to self-validate. This causes them to get hooked on validation from many sources from all directions... hence the behaviors known as promiscuity and serial cheating. People who lack the ability to self-validate are constantly looking to others to show them they are worth something, through compliments and sometimes sex. 

It becomes an addiction in iteself that can consume a person's life and destroy all they hold dear. Don't become this kind of person Carrie.


----------



## bandit.45

Carrie420 said:


> Respectfully sandc, humans are much more subject to their instincts than that. In fact, a lot of geneticists think that about 95% of all choices people make aren't choices at all.
> 
> Their are a lot of really, really smart people, both in genetics and philosophy, who firmly believe that humans and their choices are based solely upon the chemical makeup of their brain and the instincts coded within their genes. I don't subscribe to this theory 100%, but there are some compelling arguments to some of their reasoning.
> 
> I'm not trying to start a pissing contest. I'm just participating in an interesting discussion.


Yeah, but we have this interesting thing called a cerebral cortex. 

Only a few other species have it. These are the species that are able to leap beyond instinct and actually make choices.

Why waste a wonderful gift nature gave us?


----------



## sandc

Carrie420 said:


> Respectfully sandc, humans are much more subject to their instincts than that. In fact, a lot of geneticists think that about 95% of all choices people make aren't choices at all.
> 
> There are a lot of really, really smart people, both in genetics and philosophy, who firmly believe that humans and their choices are based solely upon the chemical makeup of their brain and the instincts coded within their genes. I don't subscribe to this theory 100%, but there are some compelling arguments to some of their reasoning.
> 
> One simple example is that a woman with Post partum depression can't CHOOSE not to be depressed. She's simply acting according to her imbalanced brain chemistry at the time.
> 
> I'm not trying to start a pissing contest. I'm just participating in an interesting discussion.


That's fine but I disagree. We all *do* what we choose to *do*. You cannot choose how you feel. You feel what you feel. I'm talking about actions.


----------



## Carrie420

bandit.45 said:


> You have to become self-validating Carrie. You have to learn to be emotionally independent of what others feel or think about you. Because Jack could die in a car wreck tomorrow, or he could walk. If this happens, you have to be able to know that you are still attractive an have lots to offer the world...without someone telling you.
> 
> Many people, both men and womn, are for some reaon unable to self-validate. This causes them to get hooked on validation from many sources from all directions... hence the behaviors known as promiscuity and serial cheating. People who lack the ability to slef validate are constantly looking to others to show them they are worth something, through compliments and sometimes sex.
> 
> It becomes an addiction in iteself that can consume a person's life and destroy all they hold dear. Don't become this kind of person Carrie.


What you're saying here meshes with what my IC has been saying.

When I met Jack, it was like I was alive for the first time. I didn't have self esteem issues at the time, but I had never met anyone like Jack. I had been dating boys. But Jack was a man and was the only guy ever to make me weak in the knees. I was 20 years old, but felt like a 13 year old. I was so crazy over him. In a good way.


----------



## Carrie420

sandc said:


> That's fine but I disagree. We all *do* what we choose to *do*. You cannot choose how you feel. You feel what you feel. I'm talking about actions.


There's a fine line between choice and instinct. But you're right in that no one chooses how they feel about anything, no more than we choose our parents.

We do make some choices of the "mind over matter" type. I agree. But not all. There are some choices that our brain makes for us. Affairs notwithstanding.


----------



## bandit.45

Carrie420 said:


> What you're saying here meshes with what my IC has been saying.
> 
> When I met Jack, it was like I was alive for the first time. I didn't have self esteem issues at the time, but I had never met anyone like Jack. I had been dating boys. But Jack was a man and was the only guy ever to make me weak in the knees. I was 20 years old, but felt like a 13 year old. I was so blond over him.


What about now? What about during the leading up to your affair? Was there ever a time when he didn't make you weak in the knees? Why so?


----------



## bandit.45

Carrie420 said:


> There's a fine line between choice and instinct. But you're right in that no one chooses how they feel about anything, no more than we choose our parents.
> 
> We do make some choices of the "mind over matter" type. I agree. But not all. There are some choices that our brain makes for us. Affairs notwithstanding.


So then it becomes a process of figuring out what pushes your primal buttons. Once you figure out what makes you tick sexually, you can then take steps to put safeguards and boundaries in place for yourself to keep you from giving into those triggers. 

This isn't rocket science, but it takes self-evaluation and lots of digging to figure out why you make poor choices under certain circumstances. You have got a lot of work to do.


----------



## dogman

bandit.45 said:


> But these impulses can be controlled through choice.
> 
> This is what you have to work on Carrie. You need to get with your counselor and dissect the entire affair from beginning to end. Analyze every step you made towards ultimately betraying your husband and vows.
> 
> You need to identify when and where you allowed the OM to cross your boundaries, and why you did so. If at the end, you cannot give Jack...Walter, whatever the fvck he calls himself... a decent answer as to WHY you did what you did, he can never heal and you will be ripe to make the same foolish choices again in the future, despite your protestations otherwise.



Yes!!!


----------



## Carrie420

bandit.45 said:


> What about now? What about during the leading up to your affair? Was there ever a time when he didn't make you weak in the knees? Why so?


When we became disconnected sexually, even then, I was always very attracted to Jack. I wanted sex with him. But for the first time in our lives, we argued about sex, and I began to feel some distance between us. 

I see now that the distance had something to do with my unrealistic expectations of drawing most or all of my self esteem from what Jack thought about me and said about me.

Now, Jack makes me weak in the knees more than ever. I've never felt that way about anyone else.


----------



## bandit.45

Okay. Enough chit chat. I have a football game to watch.


----------



## Carrie420

bandit.45 said:


> So then it becomes a process of figuring out what pushes your primal buttons. Once you figure out what makes you tick sexually, you can then take steps to put safeguards and boundaries in place for yourself to keep you from giving into those triggers.
> 
> This isn't rocket science, but it takes self-evaluation and lots of digging to figure out why you make poor choices under certain circumstances. You have got a lot of work to do.


What can I do except believe what you say here (I do), go to a good IC (I am) and to a good MC (we are). And talk it out with Jack. And be willing to see something wrong in me.

What else can I do?


----------



## Carrie420

bandit.45 said:


> Okay. Enough chit chat. I have a football game to watch.


Go Patriots.


----------



## bandit.45

Carrie420 said:


> What can I do except believe what you say here (I do), go to a good IC (I am) and to a good MC (we are). And talk it out with Jack. And be willing to see something wrong in me.
> 
> What else can I do?


Love him. 

And understand the future of the marriage is in his hands, not yours.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WalterWhite420

Thank you all for debating Carrie and participating.

Question: Why are my triggers only when I’m away from her or when she’s asleep? It’s uncanny, but I’m fine when we’re together. She goes to sleep, and I struggle.

Am I drawing too much of my strength from her presence and companionship? Or could it be a good sign?

I have IC tomorrow, and will discuss with him in depth.


----------



## happyman64

WalterWhite420 said:


> Thank you all for debating Carrie and participating.
> 
> Question: Why are my triggers only when I’m away from her or when she’s asleep? It’s uncanny, but I’m fine when we’re together. She goes to sleep, and I struggle.
> 
> Am I drawing too much of my strength from her presence and companionship? Or could it be a good sign?
> 
> I have IC tomorrow, and will discuss with him in depth.


Google "Codependence". But I am guessing TBH.

And Jack this whole R process takes time. Patience my friend. Patience.

It takes time for all the new emotions and feelings to come under control.

HM


----------



## bandit.45

Patriots just got run over by some horses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tdwal

bandit.45 said:


> Patriots just got run over by some horses.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And smashed them suckers flat.


----------



## MattMatt

WalterWhite420 said:


> Thank you all for debating Carrie and participating.
> 
> Question: Why are my triggers only when I’m away from her or when she’s asleep? It’s uncanny, but I’m fine when we’re together. She goes to sleep, and I struggle.
> 
> Am I drawing too much of my strength from her presence and companionship? Or could it be a good sign?
> 
> I have IC tomorrow, and will discuss with him in depth.


Because that's how cheated upon people are.

It's an example of our changed thought patterns. For example:-

BC (Before Cheating) "Oh, my! He/she is 20 minutes late! I hope they haven't had an accident!"

PC (Post Cheating) "Oh, my! He/she is 20 minutes late. I hope they aren't cheating on me again!"

And as for when she's asleep? You can't control her dreams. Maybe you are concerned she's dreaming of him?:scratchhead:


----------



## bandit.45

Dreaming of him dead? 

Naw, there was no love in this affair. It was about danger and sex.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Carrie420

MattMatt said:


> Because that's how cheated upon people are.
> 
> It's an example of our changed thought patterns. For example:-
> 
> BC (Before Cheating) "Oh, my! He/she is 20 minutes late! I hope they haven't had an accident!"
> 
> PC (Post Cheating) "Oh, my! He/she is 20 minutes late. I hope they aren't cheating on me again!"
> 
> And as for when she's asleep? You can't control her dreams. Maybe you are concerned she's dreaming of him?:scratchhead:


I think Jack knows I'm not dreaming about the OM. I never dreamed about him. And I'm being honest with myself when I say that.


----------



## cool12

of course you feel more secure when she's with you. i think that's only natural. and if she spends much of that time reassuring you, well that only adds to you feeling safe with her.
but being apart is inevitable and learning how to feel good about her then must eventually happen if you're going to move beyond this. it will take time though.


----------



## MattMatt

Carrie420 said:


> I think Jack knows I'm not dreaming about the OM. I never dreamed about him. And I'm being honest with myself when I say that.


Carrie, what Jack knows and what some dark corner of his mind tries to tell him might well be two different things.

It might be a subconscious thing.


----------



## barbados

MattMatt said:


> Because that's how cheated upon people are.
> 
> It's an example of our changed thought patterns. For example:-
> 
> BC (Before Cheating) "Oh, my! He/she is 20 minutes late! I hope they haven't had an accident!"
> 
> PC (Post Cheating) "Oh, my! He/she is 20 minutes late. I hope they aren't cheating on me again!"


:iagree: Completely Spot On !!


----------



## WalterWhite420

barbados said:


> :iagree: Completely Spot On !!


I'm a bit of an exception there. I honestly believe Carrie will never do that again. Or that's the way I feel at the present.


----------



## cool12

WalterWhite420 said:


> I'm a bit of an exception there. I honestly believe Carrie will never do that again. Or that's the way I feel at the present.


and she is with you now, no?
whether or not you think she'll deceive you again, a part of you may feel vulnerable for quite some time. it's not so much that you believe she'll never do it again, it's that she ALREADY DID IT. you know now she is capable of it. before, probably not.


----------



## sandc

WalterWhite420 said:


> I'm a bit of an exception there. I honestly believe Carrie will never do that again. Or that's the way I feel at the present.


May I humbly point out that you never thought she'd cheat in the first place? I'm willing to bet you honestly believed that.

You're probably right but something inside your head will always wonder. The elephant in the room may get smaller over time, but the elephant will always be in the room.


----------



## WalterWhite420

cool12 said:


> and she is with you now, no?
> whether or not you think she'll deceive you again, a part of you may feel vulnerable for quite some time. it's not so much that you believe she'll never do it again, it's that she ALREADY DID IT. you know now she is capable of it. before, probably not.


Yes, I feel quite vulnerable. I shouldn't have to be going through this.


----------



## WalterWhite420

sandc said:


> May I humbly point out that you never thought she'd cheat in the first place? I'm willing to bet you honestly believed that.
> 
> You're probably right but something inside your head will always wonder. The elephant in the room may get smaller over time, but the elephant will always be in the room.


sandc, you're always welcome to make whatever points you feel relevant. I value your input.

No, I never thought she'd cheat in the first place. The elephant is still here, and you're right. It may never go away. 

But our MC, and people like EI, give us hope. EI's marriage is better than ever. Maybe ours can be too. Time, time, time.


----------



## MattMatt

WalterWhite420 said:


> sandc, you're always welcome to make whatever points you feel relevant. I value your input.
> 
> No, I never thought she'd cheat in the first place. The elephant is still here, and you're right. It may never go away.
> 
> But our MC, and people like EI, give us hope. EI's marriage is better than ever. Maybe ours can be too. Time, time, time.


My situation was somewhat different. I found out in advance that my wife planned to have an affair because she told me she was going to.

Which is, I think, a whole lot "kinder" on the soul than walking in on the love of your life having sex with someone.

With my temper I think I'd have reacted like you did.


----------



## WalterWhite420

MattMatt said:


> My situation was somewhat different. I found out in advance that my wife planned to have an affair because she told me she was going to.
> 
> Which is, I think, a whole lot "kinder" on the soul than walking in on the love of your life having sex with someone.
> 
> With my temper I think I'd have reacted like you did.


I should have killed the mother ****er on the spot and saved the city EMTs the trouble of scraping him up off the street...forgive me, I'm "self-medicating"...some dank AK47...


----------



## sandc

WalterWhite420 said:


> sandc, you're always welcome to make whatever points you feel relevant. I value your input.
> 
> No, I never thought she'd cheat in the first place. The elephant is still here, and you're right. It may never go away.
> 
> But our MC, and people like EI, give us hope. EI's marriage is better than ever. Maybe ours can be too. Time, time, time.


There is always hope. But don't underestimate how difficult it will be. It will be the most difficult thing you will ever do.


----------



## MattMatt

WalterWhite420 said:


> I should have killed the mother ****er on the spot and saved the city EMTs the trouble of scraping him up off the street...forgive me, I'm "self-medicating"...some dank AK47...


I self-medicated for several years. Nearly messed everything up.


----------



## WalterWhite420

MattMatt said:


> I self-medicated for several years. Nearly messed everything up.


Carrie is gone to her parent's house tonight to stay...cause her dad is sick and her mom sleeps so hard at night...

So I'm here without her, which is my worst trigger time. If I didn't have a bit of help, tonight would be very very hard...


----------



## cool12

WalterWhite420 said:


> Carrie is gone to her parent's house tonight to stay...cause her dad is sick and her mom sleeps so hard at night...
> 
> So I'm here without her, which is my worst trigger time. If I didn't have a bit of help, tonight would be very very hard...


what's going on with you? your thoughts?
what does being alone there trigger in you?


----------



## WalterWhite420

cool12 said:


> what's going on with you? your thoughts?
> what does being alone there trigger in you?


Thoughts of what I saw...and what may have happened before I arrived...


----------



## cool12

what you saw can't be changed and what came before, well, that's up to carrie to reveal. i can't imagine how horrific it must have been. 
got a plan for tonight?


----------



## WalterWhite420

cool12 said:


> what you saw can't be changed and what came before, well, that's up to carrie to reveal. i can't imagine how horrific it must have been.
> got a plan for tonight?


Plan: smoke a bunch of MJ and drink some wine.


----------



## cool12

good luck with the rest of your evening.


----------



## WalterWhite420

cool12 said:


> good luck with the rest of your evening.


Thanks man...feeling no pain at the present...just talked to Carrie...helped a lot.


----------



## cool12

WalterWhite420 said:


> Thanks man...feeling no pain at the present...just talked to Carrie...helped a lot.


glad to hear it.
and just for the record, i'm a woman


----------



## raven3321

WalterWhite420 said:


> Carrie is gone to her parent's house tonight to stay...cause her dad is sick and her mom sleeps so hard at night...
> 
> So I'm here without her, which is my worst trigger time. If I didn't have a bit of help, tonight would be very very hard...


Are her parents close? Since neither of you is working right now, can't you go with her? When is she coming back? 

I thought you got a rundown of what took place prior to your walking in the door. If not have you asked her? You probably want to get that out in the open. It's better to deal with it now then to learn something new and deal with the pain all over again later.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

staystrong said:


> What is your point, SLL?
> 
> 
> Some women have affairs n part because they suffering from postpartum depression.
> 
> Some after menopause. Some in their 50s, 60s, and up.
> 
> Some because their husband is emotionally cold, unlike their kind and sensitive AP.
> 
> Some have them to get a job, a promotion, get pregnant, take revenge, or because they want a more secure lifestyle.
> 
> Some because they feel lonely while their husband is on travel or overseas in combat.
> 
> Some because they've done it before and they enjoy the thrill.
> 
> Some because they got drunk and lost their inhibitions.
> 
> Some because they feel pressured into it.
> 
> Some have affairs with other women.
> 
> 
> Affairs aren't one size fits all...


My point was in my post before that. About what science teaches us, and that the outcome is not welcome to many on TAM who think cheating is 'simply' a matter of making a choice to cheat or not to cheat.

Your post sums up multiple factors involved in a complex decision making system, conscious or unconscious.

It is not simple, and not everything is a choice. And we are a kind of programmed system where a spirit can be developed that in more or less measure has the control over ourselves.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

WalterWhite420 said:


> Thank you all for debating Carrie and participating.
> 
> Question: Why are my triggers only when I’m away from her or when she’s asleep? It’s uncanny, but I’m fine when we’re together. She goes to sleep, and I struggle.
> 
> Am I drawing too much of my strength from her presence and companionship? Or could it be a good sign?
> 
> I have IC tomorrow, and will discuss with him in depth.


In your unconscious mind several though processes question constantly the whole affair. When she is near the processes that want to comfort you are having the overhand because of her being present gives you all kind of impulses. When not the anxiety circuits are having the overhand.

In many cases of trickle truth for example the BS is haunted by uncertainty about what exactly happened. 
- Comforted by the WS and often his own wishful thinking.
- Almost paranoid from questioning, searching and snooping on the other hand.

In your case it indicates your are full in the processing of all data and feelings. I hope it works out well.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

sandc said:


> I choose to do what I choose to do. I conduct myself by a code of ethics and try not to vary from that code. Doesn't always work but it's always MY choice. I will not let myself become a slave to my baser instincts.
> 
> *I think this is true for most.* We can say that it is our caveman brain or the devil made me do it or whatever. In point of fact, we only carry out the desires of our heart. If our heart is full of our spouse, then we choose not to cheat. If our heart is wayward then we choose to cheat.


Some people are thinking, some people think they are thinking, *most people* rather die than have to think.

via: Brian Tracey

What I see is conform this observation, people react on impulses, don't want to reflect, reason. They consciously let their impulses and instincts rule their life. Even a lot of graduated people...


----------



## staystrong

WalterWhite420 said:


> Plan: smoke a bunch of MJ and drink some wine.


Are you on any form of medication? Anti-anxiety or anti-depressants?

It sounds like you are trying to block out the thoughts, block out the pain. But not in a productive way. I found that alcohol made things worse, not better, as have many others. If you are finding that the thoughts are intrusive or obsessive, you should seriously consider getting on medication. 

Is there anyone you can talk to or spend time with besides Carrie? If you're having trouble being alone, why not spend time with a buddy? Do things that you would normally do outside the M.


----------



## staystrong

See_Listen_Love said:


> My point was in my post before that. About what science teaches us, and that the outcome is not welcome to many on TAM who think cheating is 'simply' a matter of making a choice to cheat or not to cheat.
> 
> Your post sums up multiple factors involved in a complex decision making system, conscious or unconscious.
> 
> It is not simple, and not everything is a choice. And we are a kind of programmed system where a spirit can be developed that in more or less measure has the control over ourselves.


I don't want to derail Walt's thread, but please PM me or start a new thread if you'd like to have a broader side discussion. 

I'll just say this, I think that...

*Cheating is a ultimately a choice. *

I say this as a former OM, BS and WS. (the latter only sort of)

To suggest otherwise undermines the underpinning concept of remorse: taking accountability for one's actions. 

Cheating can be a choice based on impulse, true, but it is ultimately a choice. It's not an involuntary response. Gagging is an involuntary response. 

Attraction is not a choice, but love is. We will be attracted to people other than our spouse. Either because of who they are or how they make us feel. But ultimately we know what we are doing. 

If she didn't choose to cheat, then the only other option was that she was coerced. That's called rape. She wasn't raped. If we start to talk about her 'coercing herself', then again we are making some more complex that what it is. We may as well say she had a little devil on one shoulder and a little angel on the other telling her what to do. And she listened to the devil. 

Carrie's case is a bit different. She allegedly only physically cheated once. And it was coitus interruptus. As far as we know, neither she nor the OM orgasmed. That bond was never completed. Either way, she claims that she would have never done it again. She can make that claim, she can even believe it with all her heart, but does anyone else hear believe that? I don't. It's possible, but I doubt it. Maybe if she found herself throwing up in the bathroom, mascara running down her face, slapping herself in the face, then yes it's possible. She would have been disgusted with herself and OM. The guilt would have eaten at her for years unless she confessed. More than likely, though, she or OM would have reached out to each other. Don't forget:


> with her legs WRAPPED AROUND HIM, and him going to town like a Singer sewing machine...*and her moaning in pleasure.*


She knew what she wanted.

TBH, I'm on the fence about whether this story is even real. It's very cinematic. But I hope it is real because if it is it could ultimately become a 'teaching thread' on TAM.


----------



## dogman

WalterWhite420 said:


> Thank you all for debating Carrie and participating.
> 
> Question: Why are my triggers only when I’m away from her or when she’s asleep? It’s uncanny, but I’m fine when we’re together. She goes to sleep, and I struggle.
> 
> Am I drawing too much of my strength from her presence and companionship? Or could it be a good sign?
> 
> I have IC tomorrow, and will discuss with him in depth.


My wife and I are 7 1/2 years into R. 
The worst times for us were in the middle of the night. She would wake up and have anxiety over stuff and then wake me and we'd talk and that would lead to fighting. This lasted for about 6 to 7 years, waxing and waning.
I feel that the timeline gets messed up during the night and she would wake up feeling like she was in it and not past it.

I never cheated. I left for 7 months. She had an EA or more during that separation.(I'll never know for sure) She felt betrayed and abandoned. I was unhappy with things in our marriage and needed space to decide if I wanted to continue. During that time she connected with a guy from HS.

During IC I addressed my issues and after several years I had a breakthrough. I hit rock bottom after many lost nights of sleep and a suicide hotline event. I finally put down what I was carrying that caused many things for me.


----------



## jack.c

WalterWhite420 said:


> Thoughts of what I saw...and what may have happened before I arrived...



Walter, forgive me if I'm wrong, but I believe that you dont feel well when you are alone because basically you're not really convinced of R. What I mean is that your heart is all for it, but your mind is'nt ther yet.....
The immagines of my fiancee when i caught her in bed with my best friend (more like a brother...i thought) will never be cancelled... even now that i'm happly married with kids (obviously with another woman) still makes me feel sick.
So if this is the case, why not give yourself more time?....


----------



## bandit.45

WalterWhite420 said:


> I should have killed the mother ****er on the spot and saved the city EMTs the trouble of scraping him up off the street...forgive me, I'm "self-medicating"...some dank AK47...


I think MattMatt loves telling that story just to piss everybody off. 

Sheesh.


----------



## bandit.45

WalterWhite420 said:


> Plan: smoke a bunch of MJ and drink some wine.


Smoking the mota is okay, but keep schloppin the booze and you will go down a road you don't want to go down. Believe me, you do not want to end up an alcoholic like me. (Recovering )


----------



## mahike

You need a clear head my friend to deal with this stuff I tried the self medication route. It only makes the pain bearable for a little while. 

I would lay off both until you are further down the road of R. Triggering is going to happen for a long time. When this happens try and focus on happy memories and try the other path instead of drinking and smoking go workout and run. It will help a great deal.

As I said I tried self medication and it is not a good path


----------



## sandc

Carrie420 said:


> There's a fine line between choice and instinct. But you're right in that no one chooses how they feel about anything, no more than we choose our parents.
> 
> We do make some choices of the "mind over matter" type. I agree. But not all. There are some choices that our brain makes for us. Affairs notwithstanding.


So.. RIGHT HERE... is where it starts to look like you're saying that you can't be held accountable for the A. Your cavegirl brain made the decision for you. I call BS on that. You can override any primal instinct you may have. You CAN choose. You DID choose.


----------



## staystrong

sandc said:


> So.. RIGHT HERE... is where it starts to look like you're saying that you can't be held accountable for the A. Your cavegirl brain made the decision for you. I call BS on that. You can override any primal instinct you may have. You CAN choose. You DID choose.


She's admitting she chose. She crossed the line. Apparently it was a very fine line for her on that day. But we all know it did not begin on that day, it had been building up over time. Her distancing from Jack, her closing the distance with OM. 

Many "fine lines" had been crossed. By lunch time that day, the line was hair thin. A few playful slaps to show "protest" the advances, pretty much just foreplay if you think about it. Sorry Carrie, but that's the way I see it.


----------



## sandc

I agree that the decision making started before that day. I just wanted to point out to her that I don't agree with the whole biology made her do it thing. She chose.


----------



## EI

bandit.45 said:


> But these impulses can be controlled through choice.
> 
> This is what you have to work on Carrie. You need to get with your counselor and dissect the entire affair from beginning to end. Analyze every step you made towards ultimately betraying your husband and vows.
> 
> You need to identify when and where you allowed the OM to cross your boundaries, and why you did so. If at the end, you cannot give Jack...Walter, whatever the fvck he calls himself... a decent answer as to WHY you did what you did, he can never heal and you will be ripe to make the same foolish choices again in the future, despite your protestations otherwise.



Geeeeee, Bandit, I wish you had been such a reasonable, thoughtful and helpful poster back in the day when I first came aboard. This is actually some sound advice. 

Carrie, when I have some spare time, (Ha Ha Ha Ha, LOL, I have 5 kids...... they're grown, but it doesn't matter, I still spend nearly every waking moment putting out fires that they start) I'll send you a pm with a few choice excerpts of some of the comments that I received from the TAM welcoming committee, back in 2012. I bookmarked some of the "more colorful" comments. There are several entries from ol' Bandit, himself!  He's getting soft in his old age.  You should consider yourself lucky!


----------



## bandit.45

EI said:


> Geeeeee, Bandit, I wish you had been such a reasonable, thoughtful and helpful poster back in the day when I first came aboard. This is actually some sound advice.
> 
> Carrie, when I have some spare time, (Ha Ha Ha Ha, LOL, I have 5 kids...... they're grown, but it doesn't matter, I still spend nearly every waking moment putting out fires that they start) I'll send you a pm with a few choice excerpts of some of the comments that I received from the TAM welcoming committee, back in 2012. I bookmarked some of the "more colorful" comments. There are several entries from ol' Bandit, himself!  He's getting soft in his old age.  You should consider yourself lucky!


I kicked your azz pretty bad when you first came on TAM didn't I? 

Well... you are a very different person now from that cornered, hurting, angry lady who started out. I'm flat out impressed with how you owned your sh!t, how well you have done, and the asset you have become to the site. 

I'm a different guy now too. I've let go of alot of the poison I had been carrying around in my soul.


----------



## MattMatt

bandit.45 said:


> I think MattMatt loves telling that story just to piss everybody off.
> 
> Sheesh.


Nope. Just to show that sometimes we can recover from some really bad situations. Even stuff we could not have conceived getting through at one time in our lives.


----------



## MattMatt

bandit.45 said:


> I kicked your azz pretty bad when you first came on TAM didn't I?
> 
> Well... you are a very different person now from that cornered, hurting, angry lady who started out. I'm flat out impressed with how you owned your sh!t, how well you have done, and the asset you have become to the site.
> 
> I'm a different guy now too. I've let go of alot of the poison I had been carrying around in my soul.


I sort of knew EI would pull round and get it back together. Which is why I got a little bit frustrated at times, back then.


----------



## bandit.45

MattMatt said:


> Nope. Just to show that sometimes we can recover from some really bad situations. Even stuff we could not have conceived getting through at one time in our lives.


I still wish you would have kicked the OM in the nads.


----------



## EI

WalterWhite420 said:


> sandc, you're always welcome to make whatever points you feel relevant. I value your input.
> 
> No, I never thought she'd cheat in the first place. The *elephant* is still here, and you're right. It may never go away.
> 
> But our MC, and people like EI, give us hope. EI's marriage is better than ever. Maybe ours can be too. Time, time, time.


I've read a few posts on this thread referring to the inevitable "elephant" in the room that is the ever present awareness of the affair. B1 and I were discussing this very subject several weeks ago and I remembered posting about it in the Reconciliation thread. I don't think anyone who has ever experienced infidelity would ever seriously suggest that something as big as an affair will ever simply "go away" as if it never happened. But, I do want to share a part of my post. It includes B1's response when I asked him about the "elephant" in the room. 



EI said:


> .........There is no formula. No two WS's are the same. No two BS's are the same. No two marriages are the same. And, finally, no two infidelities are the same. Therefore, no two reconciliations can be the same. But, I think, first and foremost, you must have two people who are willing to reinvest in the marriage. It takes 100% of the efforts of both spouses for it to even have a chance to work because it takes an unbelievable amount of time, energy, and patience.
> 
> I think the answer to what needs to be done to make the BS comfortable depends on what your BS needs for you to do. At the very least, a WS needs to be completely honest, transparent and extremely sensitive to the subtle mood changes, expressions, and demeanor of their spouse. In the summer of 2012, when our reconciliation was still in the very early stages, I became aware of even the tiniest changes in B1. I could tell that his mood had changed just by the sound of his breathing. I didn't wait for him to bring "it" up. I'm not foolish, "it" is always around, in the air. But, I will say that compared to this time last year when "it" was the size of a large *elephant* in the room, "it" is now the size of a tiny field mouse (I just, this very moment, asked B1, and that was his response.) If I sense that he is struggling, hurting, or triggering, I don't try to avoid him or avoid the subject. After the first several months of hours long conversations every day, I think he decided that it was time for him to ease up, give me a break, not burden me with his every single worry, fear, insecurity and hurt. I told him that I don't want him to hurt (and, I don't,) but not telling me when he is hurting is not the same as him not hurting. When he hurts, I want him to share it with me so that we can bear the burden together. I don't want him to suffer alone. I need for him to heal. I cannot heal until he does. So, we work through this together. We both owe it to ourselves and to each other to offer our best possible self to the other, not the broken, defeated, hopeless versions of ourselves that we had become.
> 
> I don't know why our reconciliation is going so well when it seems so challenging, if not impossible, for some. Maybe we had both made such a mess of things that we really had nowhere else to go, but up. I just know that we are truly, truly, very happy. In admitting and facing our weaknesses, we also found our strengths. And, we find our greatest strength in one another's arms. But, more than anything else, we have found one another, again...... or maybe even for the first time.


----------



## MattMatt

bandit.45 said:


> I still wish you would have kicked the OM in the nads.


Yeah, me too, later.

But when I met him I thought: :wtf:

He was pudgy, out of condition and older than me.:scratchhead:

When by coincidence a couple of years later I met him and his new wife (the old one had finally thrown him out) and saw that she was tall, pretty and had an amazingly stunning pair of norks, I thought: "Why?" And "How?" :rofl:


----------



## bandit.45

MattMatt said:


> Yeah, me too, later.
> 
> But when I met him I thought: :wtf:
> 
> He was pudgy, out of condition and older than me.:scratchhead:
> 
> When by coincidence a couple of years later I met him and his new wife (the old one had finally thrown him out" and saw that she was tall, pretty and had an amazingly stunning pair of norks, I thought: "Why?" And "How?" :rofl:


Because he acts like a man, scumbag that he is. Women like men who act like men, regardless of their looks. They can spot a beta-male pushover a mile away and avoid such men like the plague.

Humphrey Bogart was the fugliest actor who ever came down the pike, but he acted like a man, so women flocked to him. When he was 47 he ended up scoring 19 year-old Lauren Bacall and fathered two children with her.


----------



## MattMatt

bandit.45 said:


> Because he acts like a man, scumbag that he is. Women like men who act like men, regardless of their looks. They can spot a beta-male pushover a mile away and avoid such men like the plague.
> 
> Humphrey Bogart was the fugliest actor who ever came down the pike, but he acted like a man, so women flocked to him. When he was 47 he ended up scoring 19 year-old Lauren Bacall and fathered two children with her.


Aha. Penny drops! He was a particularly good salesman in his employment. Until he dipped his wick in the wrong place.


----------



## sandc

EI said:


> I've read a few posts on this thread referring to the inevitable "elephant" in the room that is the ever present awareness of the affair. B1 and I were discussing this very subject several weeks ago and I remembered posting about it in the Reconciliation thread. I don't think anyone who has ever experienced infidelity would ever seriously suggest that something as big as an affair will ever simply "go away" as if it never happened. But, I do want to share a part of my post. It includes B1's response when I asked him about the "elephant" in the room.


I think YOU are a big reason why your R is going so well. B1 as well. He truly loves you.

I've said from the beginning that Carrie reminds me of you. I hope she keeps that trend going.


----------



## cool12

staystrong said:


> She's admitting she chose. She crossed the line. Apparently it was a very fine line for her on that day. But we all know it did not begin on that day, it had been building up over time. Her distancing from Jack, her closing the distance with OM.
> 
> Many "fine lines" had been crossed. By lunch time that day, the line was hair thin. A few playful slaps to show "protest" the advances, pretty much just foreplay if you think about it. Sorry Carrie, but that's the way I see it.


it certainly started before that day - 



WalterWhite420 said:


> Anyway, my wife swore to me that it was a "first". Her lover was a co-worker than had pursued her relentlessly for years, and *she finally gave in after a night of bar-hopping together *while I was away tending to my sick mother. The affair continued for about a year until my above-described D Day.


gave in how? 
i know walter claims he was in a self-induced haze during the months following the incident in his bed but where did he get the idea that boundaries had been crossed while the 2 were out drinking? why was she out bar hopping w/o walter?

and has WS said why she wasn't at work that day? a day he was expected to arrive late?


----------



## WalterWhite420

jack.c said:


> Walter, forgive me if I'm wrong, but I believe that you dont feel well when you are alone because basically you're not really convinced of R. What I mean is that your heart is all for it, but your mind is'nt ther yet.....
> The immagines of my fiancee when i caught her in bed with my best friend (more like a brother...i thought) will never be cancelled... even now that i'm happly married with kids (obviously with another woman) still makes me feel sick.
> So if this is the case, why not give yourself more time?....


Thank you. Yes, I'm being patient and giving it time. I just tend to write my daily thoughts here.


----------



## WalterWhite420

bandit.45 said:


> Smoking the mota is okay, but keep schloppin the booze and you will go down a road you don't want to go down. Believe me, you do not want to end up an alcoholic like me. (Recovering )


Thanks Bandit. I ended up not drinking any wine last night after all. Just a little MJ from the vaporizer...


----------



## WalterWhite420

mahike said:


> You need a clear head my friend to deal with this stuff I tried the self medication route. It only makes the pain bearable for a little while.
> 
> I would lay off both until you are further down the road of R. Triggering is going to happen for a long time. When this happens try and focus on happy memories and try the other path instead of drinking and smoking go workout and run. It will help a great deal.
> 
> As I said I tried self medication and it is not a good path


Thanks mahike.


----------



## WalterWhite420

cool12 said:


> it certainly started before that day -
> 
> 
> 
> gave in how?
> i know walter claims he was in a self-induced haze during the months following the incident in his bed but where did he get the idea that boundaries had been crossed while the 2 were out drinking? why was she out bar hopping w/o walter?
> 
> and has WS said why she wasn't at work that day? a day he was expected to arrive late?


Carrie has admitted to going out in a group of co-workers, which included the OM, about 6 times the year prior to the A. Lunches and after-work drinks. That's where I (maybe) jumped to the "bar hopping" conclusion while I was psychadelic on marijuana. That's her current story under penalty of perjury. We have a polygraph Thursday. She'll be asked about it then.


----------



## WalterWhite420

Carrie stayed with her parents last night (her dad is sick).

About 1:00AM this morning, she texted and asked if I was still awake. I replied and she called. We talked for about 2 hours on the phone and it was really nice. Like when we were in college, before we moved in together. We would talk for hours on the phone at night. Tonight (this morning), it kept me from self-medicating too much. We talked until I was falling asleep. I actually went to sleep fast after we hung up, and stayed asleep till 8:00AM.

Then I went to IC. We discussed my difficulties with triggers, and the fact that they only occur when Carrie is asleep or away. And we talked about codependency. 

Here’s a loose definition of codependency I found on the WebMD web site:

"Codependency, by definition, means making the relationship more important to you than you are to yourself. It's kind of a weird phrase, and it doesn't sound like it means a one-sided relationship. But that's what it is. It means you're trying to make the relationship work with someone else who's not."

The first sentence definitely applies to me and, to a lesser extent, Carrie as well. But the last sentence in the definition doesn’t seem to apply to either of us. She’s working very hard on our relationship. 

I also found a quote that said "Codependents are caring people; they just care beyond the bounds of reason”. 

I can see a bit of that in me. In the way I’ve always felt about Carrie. Many times I’ve said I love her more than myself, and deep down I still feel that way. 

But shouldn’t husbands and wives love one other like this? I’m not a devoutly religious person, but I believe in God and Jesus and the Bible. And didn’t Jesus say something to the effect of “No greater love has one person for another than to lay their life down for them”? I knew after 3 weeks of being together in college that I felt this way about her. And I’ve felt that way ever since.

MC is tomorrow; can’t wait to see what “homework exercise” she assigns us this week. Polygraph Thursday. Carrie will be home in a few minutes. She won’t have to stay with her dad tonight. She said she has a surprise for me when she gets home. This usually means she’s made a trip to Victoria’s Secret.


----------



## Carrie420

sandc said:


> So.. RIGHT HERE... is where it starts to look like you're saying that you can't be held accountable for the A. Your cavegirl brain made the decision for you. I call BS on that. You can override any primal instinct you may have. You CAN choose. You DID choose.


Respectfully, as always, sandc,

You are wrong in your conclusion that I’m trying to blame my stupid, illicit affair on “biology”. The affair was ALL my fault, because I chose to let it happen, and I was wrong. I haven’t always been able to say that. But I can now.

The discussion that you and I were participating in was interesting. I’m a biochemist with a MD degree, and I love discussing human biology and psychology. And philosophy. In no way was I trying to blame my stupid, illicit affair on biology. It was all my fault.

As I stated when I joined our interesting discussion, I wasn’t trying to start a pissing contest. I’m a scientist, and I believe in science. And I do believe that the many 180 IQ (genius) geneticists who have dedicated their lives to studying human behavior have some clout to their arguments which are backed up with tangible research and experimentation. But when someone gets tired of discussing, then there’s no reasoning left to do.

Please, I need your help. I'm humbling myself here and opening up my soul for critique. And I feel like you jumped to a conclusion based upon my commentary in what I thought was just an interesting discussion.

I apologize if I've stepped out of line here.

Please give me a chance. Like Jack has. I won't let you down.


----------



## SoulStorm

Carrie420 said:


> Respectfully, as always, sandc,
> 
> You are wrong in your conclusion that I’m trying to blame my stupid, illicit affair on “biology”. The affair was ALL my fault, because I chose to let it happen, and I was wrong. I haven’t always been able to say that. But I can now.
> 
> The discussion that you and I were participating in was interesting. I’m a biochemist with a MD degree, and I love discussing human biology and psychology. And philosophy. In no way was I trying to blame my stupid, illicit affair on biology. It was all my fault.
> 
> As I stated when I joined our interesting discussion, I wasn’t trying to start a pissing contest. I’m a scientist, and I believe in science. And I do believe that the many 180 IQ (genius) geneticists who have dedicated their lives to studying human behavior have some clout to their arguments which are backed up with tangible research and experimentation. But when someone gets tired of discussing, and just calls “Bull****”, then there’s no reasoning left to do. It has then become a pissing contest.
> 
> Please, I need your help. I'm humbling myself here and opening up my soul for critique. And I feel like you jumped to a conclusion based upon my commentary in what I thought was just an interesting discussion.
> 
> I apologize if I've stepped out of line here.
> 
> Please give me a chance. Like Jack has. I won't let you down.


Carrie,
sandc is just being tough BECAUSE he cares. He has learned to look for anything that appears to be blameshifting. 

Over the years there has been many WW's who proclaim remorse and honesty and come to find out they failed the poly, they have been continually lying and still contacting and being intimate with their affair partner (highly unlikely in your case since he's dead) or have been carrying on with other affairs.

Trust me when I say..He is giving you a chance..otherwise he would have cut bait on you long before this page.

Me... I like you and Jack...I hope things go great.


----------



## MattMatt

Carrie420 said:


> Respectfully, as always, sandc,
> 
> You are wrong in your conclusion that I’m trying to blame my stupid, illicit affair on “biology”. The affair was ALL my fault, because I chose to let it happen, and I was wrong. I haven’t always been able to say that. But I can now.
> 
> The discussion that you and I were participating in was interesting. I’m a biochemist with a MD degree, and I love discussing human biology and psychology. And philosophy. In no way was I trying to blame my stupid, illicit affair on biology. It was all my fault.
> 
> As I stated when I joined our interesting discussion, I wasn’t trying to start a pissing contest. I’m a scientist, and I believe in science. And I do believe that the many 180 IQ (genius) geneticists who have dedicated their lives to studying human behavior have some clout to their arguments which are backed up with tangible research and experimentation. But when someone gets tired of discussing, then there’s no reasoning left to do.
> 
> Please, I need your help. I'm humbling myself here and opening up my soul for critique. And I feel like you jumped to a conclusion based upon my commentary in what I thought was just an interesting discussion.
> 
> I apologize if I've stepped out of line here.
> 
> Please give me a chance. Like Jack has. I won't let you down.


Even scientists can cheat. Even very clever people can cheat. Even people in love can cheat.

It's what happens afterwards that matters. How, if, they try to put things right.


----------



## happyman64

EI said:


> Geeeeee, Bandit, I wish you had been such a reasonable, thoughtful and helpful poster back in the day when I first came aboard. This is actually some sound advice.
> 
> Carrie, when I have some spare time, (Ha Ha Ha Ha, LOL, I have 5 kids...... they're grown, but it doesn't matter, I still spend nearly every waking moment putting out fires that they start) I'll send you a pm with a few choice excerpts of some of the comments that I received from the TAM welcoming committee, back in 2012. I bookmarked some of the "more colorful" comments. There are several entries from ol' Bandit, himself!  He's getting soft in his old age.  You should consider yourself lucky!


Carrie should ask the Bandito how many times he has been banned and for how long?

IMO the mods love Bandit and wanted to make him a moderator. Every time he said no to them they banned him.......


----------



## Carrie420

SoulStorm said:


> Carrie,
> sandc is just being tough BECAUSE he cares. He has learned to look for anything that appears to be blameshifting.
> 
> Over the years there has been many WW's who proclaim remorse and honesty and come to find out they failed the poly, they have been continually lying and still contacting and being intimate with their affair partner (highly unlikely in your case since he's dead) or have been carrying on with other affairs.
> 
> Trust me when I say..He is giving you a chance..otherwise he would have cut bait on you long before this page.
> 
> Me... I like you and Jack...I hope things go great.


Thank you so much. We're going to make it.


----------



## Carrie420

happyman64 said:


> Carrie should ask the Bandito how many times he has been banned and for how long?
> 
> IMO the mods love Bandit and wanted to make him a moderator. Every time he said no to them they banned him.......


OK Bandit, how many bans and for how long? Spill your guts.


----------



## sandc

Carrie420 said:


> Respectfully, as always, sandc,
> 
> You are wrong in your conclusion that I’m trying to blame my stupid, illicit affair on “biology”. The affair was ALL my fault, because I chose to let it happen, and I was wrong. I haven’t always been able to say that. But I can now.
> 
> The discussion that you and I were participating in was interesting. I’m a biochemist with a MD degree, and I love discussing human biology and psychology. And philosophy. In no way was I trying to blame my stupid, illicit affair on biology. It was all my fault.
> 
> As I stated when I joined our interesting discussion, I wasn’t trying to start a pissing contest. I’m a scientist, and I believe in science. And I do believe that the many 180 IQ (genius) geneticists who have dedicated their lives to studying human behavior have some clout to their arguments which are backed up with tangible research and experimentation. But when someone gets tired of discussing, then there’s no reasoning left to do.
> 
> Please, I need your help. I'm humbling myself here and opening up my soul for critique. And I feel like you jumped to a conclusion based upon my commentary in what I thought was just an interesting discussion.
> 
> I apologize if I've stepped out of line here.
> 
> Please give me a chance. Like Jack has. I won't let you down.


I am not a scientist. I believe there are things science can't explain. I'm not tired of discussing just because I don't agree with you. You need to let me have my opinion whether you agree with it or not. I'm trying to teach you that you don't always have to have the last word. Nor do I.

I like you Carrie, but I'm not going to go easy on you.


----------



## Carrie420

sandc said:


> I am not a scientist. I believe there are things science can't explain. I'm not tired of discussing just because I don't agree with you. You need to let me have my opinion whether you agree with it or not. I'm trying to teach you that you don't always have to have the last word. Nor do I.
> 
> I like you Carrie, but I'm not going to go easy on you.


Go hard on me...just make sure you know I'm not trying to be difficult...I'm trying to get help and be humble...


----------



## sandc

Carrie420 said:


> Go hard on me...just make sure you know I'm not trying to be difficult...I'm trying to get help and be humble...


And that will serve you well.

I don't pretend to have answers. Just opinions.


----------



## Carrie420

sandc said:


> And that will serve you well.
> 
> I don't pretend to have answers. Just opinions.


And I want your honest opinions. Thank you.


----------



## TheCatfish

First, I would have to say that unless the man was raping your wife, his beating was undeserved. It seems to me that it was consensual and that being said, you may have wanted to beat yourself up instead because you have left her missing something and that is why she was there with another man. 

It is nearly impossible to fulfill one's partner with all physical and emotional needs, which is usually why someone cheats but your reaction tells me you might have some jealousy and anger issues that may have led you to this point.


----------



## raven3321

TheCatfish said:


> First, I would have to say that unless the man was raping your wife, his beating was undeserved. It seems to me that it was consensual and that being said, you may have wanted to beat yourself up instead because you have left her missing something and that is why she was there with another man.
> 
> It is nearly impossible to fulfill one's partner with all physical and emotional needs, which is usually why someone cheats but your reaction tells me you might have some jealousy and anger issues that may have led you to this point.


Oh please.....adultery is a capitol punishment level crime in most nations for the last 6 thousand years. It's only recently in the west that it goes unpunished. He deserved a beat down and then some. Although Carrie consented, any man that messes around with a married women is courting death. Even the bible states that a man who messes with a married woman is a fool; for a husband won't relent even though you try to appease him with gifts. 

His reaction was because he's a man, a passionate man, and not a wimp. I applaud his reaction toward him and toward her afterward. And though I think Carrie was busy being thrown out at the time, knowing the women she is, I'll bet she found his alpha-male behavior.....shall I say it....sexy. Ladies any input on this.

Could have been worse.....he could have killed him. Just because you act violently in a certain situation doesn't mean you have anger issues. Frankly some things require a violent action.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

I wonder why one would try to bring some civilisation to for instance Afghanistan and at the same time would like to apply principles of the Sharia at home...:scratchhead:


----------



## raven3321

Really.......I don't think Afghans would call us civil do you? We're the only ones calling ourselves that. 

..and please don't mistake common sense with Sharia law. I'm merely stating that there are times when physical force is necessary. If, as in Catfish's analogy, Carrie was being raped, do you think Jack should have turned around and run to call the police? No man would have done that. One of our jobs is to protect our home against anything that would pose a threat. The OM was a threat. Every OM is a threat. Sometimes coming against the OM can be more cerebral say informing the wife, sending emails to everyone at his job, etc. but it's still a corrective measure to keep him away from your wife. 

By the way, where are Carrie and Jack? Haven't heard much from them tonite. Well......I guess Tantra does take awhile.


----------



## staystrong

TheCatfish said:


> First, I would have to say that unless the man was raping your wife, his beating was undeserved. It seems to me that it was consensual and that being said, you may have wanted to beat yourself up instead because you have left her missing something and that is why she was there with another man.
> 
> It is nearly impossible to fulfill one's partner with all physical and emotional needs, which is usually why someone cheats but your reaction tells me you might have some jealousy and anger issues that may have led you to this point.


I have read your other posts (specifically, this one) and you seem to recognize you are passive and cerebral when it comes to adultery. You even told your wife it wouldn't be "the end of the world." Not only is it not attractive to your wife, it insults her. Your wife wants to know that you think she belongs to you and only you. That's why she feels unloved. 

Your defense of being 'diplomatic' about cheating is that we can't control what others do and that somehow it must have been your fault for not meeting her needs. Your wife cheated on her ex, and if you keep this mentality up she will cheat on you, too. 

Jack gets a full pass for beating up the OM. He walked in on another man on top of his wife, for Pete's sake. Yes, some people would have had more control and angrily chased the OM out of the house, but many would have instinctually attacked the intruder. You sound like you would put some tea on the kettle so that all of you could discuss how your wife's needs weren't being met. I rarely say this, but it's time to man up, my friend.


----------



## bandit.45

Catfish....

Bottom feeders who eat the discarded scraps from other fish.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WalterWhite420

raven3321 said:


> Really.......I don't think Afghans would call us civil do you? We're the only ones calling ourselves that.
> 
> ..and please don't mistake common sense with Sharia law. I'm merely stating that there are times when physical force is necessary. If, as in Catfish's analogy, Carrie was being raped, do you think Jack should have turned around and run to call the police? No man would have done that. One of our jobs is to protect our home against anything that would pose a threat. The OM was a threat. Every OM is a threat. Sometimes coming against the OM can be more cerebral say informing the wife, sending emails to everyone at his job, etc. but it's still a corrective measure to keep him away from your wife.
> 
> By the way, where are Carrie and Jack? Haven't heard much from them tonite. Well......I guess Tantra does take awhile.


We retired from the computer a little early last night. Carrie had been gone a complete day, so we talked a lot.

MC today. Can't wait to see what "homework exercise" she has for us tonight.


----------



## davecarter

One-night stand.
79 pages.


----------



## bandit.45

Carrie420 said:


> OK Bandit, how many bans and for how long? Spill your guts.


Hmmm.... Seven total times I think. I believe I hold the record...I'm not sure. 

I don't know why I was never perma-banned. :scratchhead:

Anways, I've melowed out qute a bit. I think the reason I've gone easy on Carrie is because she has shown some remorse. 

It is those waywards who are unremorseful that I tend to jump on.


----------



## bandit.45

davecarter said:


> One-night stand.
> 79 pages.


If it was a one night stand. I'm not convinced yet.


----------



## sandc

This *particular* incident may have been.


----------



## happyman64

bandit.45 said:


> If it was a one night stand. I'm not convinced yet.


IMO a broken nose and jaw kept this to a ONS.

Divine Intervention did the rest.


----------



## lenzi

I read stories like this- where the betrayed husband discovers the two of them in the act and beats the crap out of the other man but not his wife.

And as usual, I wonder why.

I'm against violence of any sort, but hey, if that's your course of action, and if you're going to beat up one of them- then why does the wife not suffer the same fate?

If anything, she's the more "guilty" of the two.

She's the one who willingly opened up her house and her legs to this guy, she's the one who gave him the ok, and perhaps more importantly she's the one who broke the promises and vows she made to you while lying to you and deceiving you in the most horrible way imaginable. He wouldn't have been in your home, he couldn't have been in your home, if your wife hadn't allowed this to occur. 

The other man? He's just a symptom of a much greater problem. This wasn't rape or forced sex of any kind. He was there because she WANTED him there. She could have told him anything, such as "the marriage is as good as over, my husband has a girlfriend too". 

He might have been deceived just as you were. It's not an unreasonable possibility given the circumstances. 

He's got the crap beaten out of him, he's publically shamed and humiliated, who knows maybe the beating changed him in such a way that it ultimately led to his untimely death at a later date?

Here you are reconciling and your wife "gets away with it" and can look forward to the rest of your lives together, with no repurcussions. Why does she get the free pass?


----------



## staystrong

In those split seconds, he's not going to be processing what you wrote in your post, he's going to be acting on instinct, shock and rage. Some people might be more composed, but Jack wasn't. Many men wouldn't be. You never know until you're in that position. 

He's not going to beat up his wife, his mate, his love. He's going to attack the trespasser in his home, the violator. Rage at her, yes .. throw her out of the house, yes, but a man of any value is not going to beat up his wife even if he hates her. Jack seethed for months, but never laid a hand on Carrie. I'm sure there were times he may have wanted to slap her had she'd been in the room. 

Women by default get the free pass against violence, unless their partner is an abusive person. It's just the way it is. That's in our nature and our nurture.


----------



## staystrong

I am also a surprised by the attitudes people on this board have had towards the OM getting killed. Okay, so he was an interloper, but he's still a person. He's not some representation of evil and a menace to society. He was someone's partner, son, brother, friend. I find Jack and Carrie a bit cold in this respect (as well as some of the other posters here). It's like the wild wild west sometimes on TAM. Carrie, this was your co-worker and friend for years. What are your feelings about his death? Are you not 'allowed' to speak anything positive about this man because it would anger Jack?


----------



## bandit.45

There was atime not too long ago when the wife would have gotten a beat-down too. 

Good question....

Carrie if Walter had lost it and smacked you around for what you did, would you have called 5-0 on him?


----------



## CASE_Sensitive

If I came home to that situation, that same scenario, of course I would react violently to the man banging my wife in my bed in my house. If I found out after my wife lied, said she was single, removed every picture from the home, etc, then I would probably feel bad in hindsight. 

If my wife found me in the wrong position, it would be no surprise if she physically attacked both me or OW.


----------



## GusPolinski

lenzi said:


> I read stories like this- where the betrayed husband discovers the two of them in the act and beats the crap out of the other man but not his wife.
> 
> And as usual, I wonder why.
> 
> I'm against violence of any sort, but hey, if that's your course of action, and if you're going to beat up one of them- then why does the wife not suffer the same fate?
> 
> If anything, she's the more "guilty" of the two.
> 
> She's the one who willingly opened up her house and her legs to this guy, she's the one who gave him the ok, and perhaps more importantly she's the one who broke the promises and vows she made to you while lying to you and deceiving you in the most horrible way imaginable. He wouldn't have been in your home, he couldn't have been in your home, if your wife hadn't allowed this to occur.
> 
> The other man? He's just a symptom of a much greater problem. This wasn't rape or forced sex of any kind. He was there because she WANTED him there. She could have told him anything, such as "the marriage is as good as over, my husband has a girlfriend too".
> 
> He might have been deceived just as you were. It's not an unreasonable possibility given the circumstances.
> 
> He's got the crap beaten out of him, he's publically shamed and humiliated, who knows maybe the beating changed him in such a way that it ultimately led to his untimely death at a later date?
> 
> Here you are reconciling and your wife "gets away with it" and can look forward to the rest of your lives together, with no repurcussions. Why does she get the free pass?


Free pass? Respectfully, are you certain that you're posting in the correct thread? I only ask because, from what I've read, it sounds like she's trying like hell to save their marriage.


----------



## staystrong

GusPolinski said:


> Free pass? Respectfully, are you certain that you're posting in the correct thread? I only ask because, from what I've read, it sounds like she's trying like hell to save their marriage.


There was no free pass for Carrie.

OM's taste of justice was physical. Carrie's was emotional. Walter's a bit over the top letter to all of the family was no "free pass". Don't underestimate the power of shaming. Or rejection.


----------



## GusPolinski

Word. True reconciliation is in no way easy, and anyone making sincere, heartfelt efforts to that end isn't getting a free pass of any kind.


----------



## vellocet

staystrong said:


> I am also a surprised by the attitudes people on this board have had towards the OM getting killed.


Enjoying the thought of someone getting killed, unless its somoen like bin Laden, is pretty f'd up.




> Okay, so he was an interloper, but he's still a person. e's not some representation of evil and a menace to society.


That's debatable.


----------



## vellocet

TheCatfish said:


> First, I would have to say that unless the man was raping your wife, his beating was undeserved. It seems to me that it was consensual and that being said, you may have wanted to beat yourself up instead because you have left her missing something and that is why she was there with another man.


Oh, because it was "consensual", that makes it A-ok to f**k someone elses spouse? Because it was "consensual", it is ok to hurt someone else and treat them like a piece of shyte?

When you use words like "consensual" when referring to cheating, it makes it sound like neither party is doing anything wrong.

Perhaps when your wife was coming home late, she was having "consensual" relations with other men, and that means neither of them did anything wrong, even if the men know she is married and don't care. See how that works now?


----------



## WalterWhite420

lenzi said:


> I read stories like this- where the betrayed husband discovers the two of them in the act and beats the crap out of the other man but not his wife.
> 
> And as usual, I wonder why.
> 
> I'm against violence of any sort, but hey, if that's your course of action, and if you're going to beat up one of them- then why does the wife not suffer the same fate?
> 
> If anything, she's the more "guilty" of the two.
> 
> She's the one who willingly opened up her house and her legs to this guy, she's the one who gave him the ok, and perhaps more importantly she's the one who broke the promises and vows she made to you while lying to you and deceiving you in the most horrible way imaginable. He wouldn't have been in your home, he couldn't have been in your home, if your wife hadn't allowed this to occur.
> 
> The other man? He's just a symptom of a much greater problem. This wasn't rape or forced sex of any kind. He was there because she WANTED him there. She could have told him anything, such as "the marriage is as good as over, my husband has a girlfriend too".
> 
> He might have been deceived just as you were. It's not an unreasonable possibility given the circumstances.
> 
> He's got the crap beaten out of him, he's publically shamed and humiliated, who knows maybe the beating changed him in such a way that it ultimately led to his untimely death at a later date?
> 
> Here you are reconciling and your wife "gets away with it" and can look forward to the rest of your lives together, with no repurcussions. Why does she get the free pass?


His death was a complete (traffic) accident in which he was the only person at fault. Our MC made us talk about the OMs death today in counciling. It was hard. More on that later.

Carrie didn't quite get a free pass. I shut her out for months. I think she was tortured by that in some ways. But my road was tougher than hers.

Carrie deserved punishment, yes, but I could never hit her, or any other woman.


----------



## WalterWhite420

vellocet said:


> Enjoying the thought of someone getting killed, unless its somoen like bin Laden, is pretty f'd up.
> 
> That's debatable.


I couldn't help but be glad he died. Many times I wish I had killed him myself.


----------



## Carrie420

bandit.45 said:


> There was atime not too long ago when the wife would have gotten a beat-down too.
> 
> Good question....
> 
> Carrie if Walter had lost it and smacked you around for what you did, would you have called 5-0 on him?


I don't know.

I just can't imagine Jack ever hitting me. Even in his most angry moments through this, I was never once scared of him hitting me. He's too much of a gentleman, even though I drove him to unspeakable anger.

That's the best answer I can come up with.


----------



## Carrie420

bandit.45 said:


> If it was a one night stand. I'm not convinced yet.


It was Bandit. It really was. All I can do is take a polygraph and tell the truth.


----------



## WalterWhite420

Carrie and I had MC today.

The first thing we discussed was our experiences with the “Dinner Feeding homework exercise" thing. The MC intended it as I had guessed: as an exercise in trusting one another, meeting needs, and allowing one another to meet our own needs. Her intent was to jolt us out of the “hot makeup sex” mode, where we had been mostly concerned each about our own satisfaction, into the “making love” mode, where we became more concerned with the sensuality of mutual giving and pleasing one another. And just getting into one another. She was pleased we had done the exercise 3 times this week. And she wants us to do it at least once per week for the foreseeable future (preferably twice per week).

Then we continued our discussion of the whys. The MC says we’ve not yet gotten to the root of the whys. This is a work in progress. She told Carrie to be patient and honest with herself, and that we’ll eventually get there. And she stressed that we must get there in order to be able to truly rebuild the marriage.

Then the MC knocked me for a loop by asking me to discuss how the OMs death had affected me. At the time of his death, Carrie and I had been separated for months. I was trying to go on without her. When I heard about the OMs death, I went through a constantly changing kaleidoscope of emotions. Glad he was dead. Wishing I had killed him myself. Desire for Carrie. Broken up inside all over again. Suicidal thoughts. Wishing Carrie was with me. Wishing I had never met Carrie. Wishing I could just forget about Carrie. How good our marriage once was. How much I loved her. How much she hurt me. From one extreme to the other, and everything in between. I went back to smoking pot several times per day. After about a month I was able to suppress those feelings once again. But they didn’t stay suppressed. It was about that time that Carrie began trying to contact me again to talk reconciliation. A few weeks after that is when I agreed to go to Pasadena (about 2 months after the OMs death). I don’t know how to explain it, but the OMs death brought me back to DDay all over again, and I hurt those same hurts again just as if everything was happening all over again. This is why I didn’t see any need to mention the OMs death in my original post. His death had no relevance on the affair (it happened anyway), nor did it have any relevance on our future (the affair was over as quickly as it started). The telling of his death and dealing with all the questions surrounding it would have made it twice as hard to tell my story. Or so I thought.

Next, the MC asked Carrie how the OMs death had affected her. She said she was actually glad he was dead. That it was a relief for her to know she would never run into him while shopping, etc. At least she was honest and said what she felt about his death.

Then the MC asked Carrie to discuss her feelings about my ONS on New Year’s Eve. We had previously discussed it, and I thought Carrie had put it completely behind her. But she has not. She admitted that she deals with hurt over that every day. The MC said that’s a natural reaction and should be expected.

The MC then asked me if I felt somewhat “even” with Carrie because I had a ONS. I was honest and said no. Then she asked if it felt “good” at all for me to know that Carrie was hurting over my ONS. I was honest and said yes. Carrie looked surprised. But the MC told her that’s a natural reaction on my part and would subside when (if) I’m able to completely forgive her. In fact, she told Carrie that if I had answered “no” to the question, she (the MC) would have known I was lying.

So we had a rough session. Quite a contrast to last week’s session, after which we felt so good and encouraged. The MC said things were going to get tougher than this at various points along our journey, but that we are strong individually and together and can make it if we really want to.

Afterward, we were not feeling well, so we decided to go to the gym and work out some frustrations. We worked out till we were exhausted, then showered and went to a late lunch. Soon we were smiling a bit again, and laughing a bit, and slowly recovering from our session. We came home and talked about all the session details again, and we felt even better. 

Yes, the MC gave us another “homework exercise” to do this week. And it’s going to be a tough one. More on that later.


----------



## VFW

Walter and Carrie,

I believe that most relationships can be saved if both parties are committed to work on the issues. A successful relationship is based on the premise that the relationship is more important to you than your own individual desires. IF both of you keep working on the issues, than there is no reason you can't get this ship back on course. I would suggest that wanting to hurt the other person as bad as you hurt or getting even are no productive and should cease immediately. Best wishes to both of you.


----------



## Carrie420

VFW said:


> Walter and Carrie,
> 
> I believe that most relationships can be saved if both parties are committed to work on the issues. A successful relationship is based on the premise that the relationship is more important to you than your own individual desires. IF both of you keep working on the issues, than there is no reason you can't get this ship back on course. I would suggest that wanting to hurt the other person as bad as you hurt or getting even are no productive and should cease immediately. Best wishes to both of you.


Thank you. We relish every bit of well-wishing and support we get.


----------



## workindad

Good luck to both of you.

WD


----------



## Carrie420

workindad said:


> Good luck to both of you.
> 
> WD


Thank you WD.


----------



## bigfoot

I have been avidly reading this thread for two days and felt compelled to join today. I want to apologize for what I am about to write, but since I have been reading this thread over the last 2 days and re-reading certain portions... sigh... sorry, but I don't think walterwhite and carrie are real people or at least they may be the same person.

On 1/11/2014 (permalink #507) Walter claimed to go to a "tantric councilor". On 1/12/2014 (permalink #500 and #507) Carrrie said they went to the "marriage councilor". It is RARE, that two people misspell the same word and use similar sentence structure. Previously, Walter used the abbreviation MC for marriage counselor, but when called upon to spell counselor, he misspelled it, and shortly after he introduces Carrie420, she misspells it the same way. There are other stylistic issues, but that leaps out at me.

Pardon the intrusion, and I am sorry, not trying to be a troll or hijacker or whatever the term is, but having been engrossed in this story for 2 days, a lot of things leap out at you. That was something that others can quickly verify. If you are real, and not doing that "catfish" thing, then apologies and pardon the interruption; however, I think I am right.


----------



## Carrie420

bigfoot said:


> I have been avidly reading this thread for two days and felt compelled to join today. I want to apologize for what I am about to write, but since I have been reading this thread over the last 2 days and re-reading certain portions... sigh... sorry, but I don't think walterwhite and carrie are real people or at least they may be the same person.
> 
> On 1/11/2014 (permalink #507) Walter claimed to go to a "tantric councilor". On 1/12/2014 (permalink #500 and #507) Carrrie said they went to the "marriage councilor". It is RARE, that two people misspell the same word and use similar sentence structure. Previously, Walter used the abbreviation MC for marriage counselor, but when called upon to spell counselor, he misspelled it, and shortly after he introduces Carrie420, she misspells it the same way. There are other stylistic issues, but that leaps out at me.
> 
> Pardon the intrusion, and I am sorry, not trying to be a troll or hijacker or whatever the term is, but having been engrossed in this story for 2 days, a lot of things leap out at you. That was something that others can quickly verify. If you are real, and not doing that "catfish" thing, then apologies and pardon the interruption; however, I think I am right.


I'm sorry Bigfoot...but you're wrong.

I hope you've got more substance behind your suspicion than a common misspelled word...don't you?


----------



## bigfoot

Sorry, one more thing. He described her as looking like Mila Kunis and then when she comes in, supposedly willingly albeit ready to get beat up a bit for her "betrayal", her avatar is Mila Kunis?! I understand togetherness and all, but in light of the topic, prior posts, and the other issues, it hardly seems realistic to believe that she would just adopt that avatar. Maybe no avatar or something. I hit post before I was done with my last post. New to this whole message board thing. Sorry.


----------



## Acabado

I wanted the POSOM in my life not only dead but slowly tortured malaysian style so I can relate. To this day I still wouldn't piss on him if he were burning.


WalterWhite420 said:


> His death had no relevance on the affair (it happened anyway), nor did it have any relevance on our future (the affair was over as quickly as it started).


Yet until last week you believed it was a year long affair, didn't you?
Did you ever talked to mutual friends or family about what was going on alleguedly for so long right under your nose? Did "exposure message" contained more than the fact she was caught in the act at home? How is it your former close friend/BIL was unaware of the extent of this after the exposure? After all it was natural he had to talk to his sister, right?
How was it possible that in those MC sessions right after DDay the real extent of the betrayal wasn't brought by anyone? What the hell were you talking about there? 
I mean... no amount of grass and booze could stop me to find out what the hell was really going on (trust me I know what I'm talking about). Knowing how long in the past you must go back to believe things were real in your life seems a no brainer.

In all honesty I was one of the regular poster of TAM that believed this was a troll thread, I used the right way to report it instead of coming here with accusations. Now I find myself willing to believe you guys... what doesn't stop the shock of noticing this huge communication failure.


----------



## Carrie420

bigfoot said:


> Sorry, one more thing. He described her as looking like Mila Kunis and then when she comes in, supposedly willingly albeit ready to get beat up a bit for her "betrayal", her avatar is Mila Kunis?! I understand togetherness and all, but in light of the topic, prior posts, and the other issues, it hardly seems realistic to believe that she would just adopt that avatar. Maybe no avatar or something. I hit post before I was done with my last post. New to this whole message board thing. Sorry.


If you don't believe, then you can't help. And if you can't help, then why are you here? Please go away.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

I would hope people would have better things to do than to post anonymous fake stories on a marriage blog to trick other anonymous posters. But that's just me. I think Walter is a good writer, a good story teller, but I don't think it's fake.

Anyway, wish you both the best in your reconciliation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bigfoot

Like I said, "I'm sorry". If both of you are real, I wish you luck. I will go away because I already made my mind up after being totally engrossed in your story. Either its all fake or Walter is writing what he hopes would have happened in real life. I don't know, I have nothing to add, I can't help, so I will leave. And my apology about saying this is really sincere. Good bye.


----------



## Carrie420

Acabado said:


> I wanted the POSOM in my life not only dead but slowly tortured malaysian style so I can relate. To this day I still wouldn't piss on him if he were burning.Yet until last week you believed it was a year long affair, didn't you?
> Did you ever talked to mutual friends or family about what was going on alleguedly for so long right under your nose? Did "exposure message" contained more than the fact she was caught in the act at home? How is it your former close friend/BIL was unaware of the extent of this after the exposure? After all it was natural he had to talk to his sister, right?
> How was it possible that in those MC sessions right after DDay the real extent of the betrayal wasn't brought by anyone? What the hell were you talking about there?
> I mean... no amount of grass and booze could stop me to find out what the hell was really going on (trust me I know what I'm talking about). Knowing how long in the past you must go back to believe things were real in your life seems a no brainer.
> 
> In all honesty I was one of the regular poster of TAM that believed this was a troll thread, I used the right way to report it instead of coming here with accusations. Now I find myself willing to believe you guys... what doesn't stop the shock of noticing this huge communication failure.


We did talk several times...but he didn't believe much anything I said, and formed his lasting opinion under the continued influence of cannabis...which is a mind-altering drug.


----------



## Carrie420

PhillyGuy13 said:


> I would hope people would have better things to do than to post anonymous fake stories on a marriage blog to trick other anonymous posters. But that's just me. I think Walter is a good writer, a good story teller, but I don't think it's fake.
> 
> Anyway, wish you both the best in your reconciliation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you PG13...


----------



## bandit.45

Carrie, what are you currently doing to prove to Walter that you are affair-proofing your life?

Are you distancing yourself from outside uneccesary male friendships? Are you being completely transparent? Have you tuned over all your passwords? Have you dismantled your FB page? Have you set straight those friends who have criticized Walter for shunning you and not accepting fault for your affair? Have you done away with toxic friendships?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Philat

PhillyGuy13 said:


> I would hope people would have better things to do than to post anonymous fake stories on a marriage blog to trick other anonymous posters. But that's just me. I think Walter is a good writer, a good story teller, but I don't think it's fake.
> 
> Anyway, wish you both the best in your reconciliation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You'd hope so, wouldn't you, Philly....


----------



## lenzi

PhillyGuy13 said:


> I would hope people would have better things to do than to post anonymous fake stories on a marriage blog to trick other anonymous posters.


There are lots of weird people in this world. 

They don't act as you might expect "normal" people to act.

Some of them find their way to obscure internet message boards and make up stories. 

Best thing to do if you suspect a story isn't real is to move on to another one. Why bring more attention to a story that you think is fake? 

Better yet, get off the couch and do something else. Maybe some situps or something.


----------



## adriana

WalterWhite420 said:


> Then the MC knocked me for a loop by asking me to discuss how the OMs death had affected me. At the time of his death, Carrie and I had been separated for months. I was trying to go on without her. When I heard about the OMs death, I went through a constantly changing kaleidoscope of emotions. Glad he was dead. Wishing I had killed him myself.
> 
> Next, the MC asked Carrie how the OMs death had affected her. She said she was actually glad he was dead. That it was a relief for her to know she would never run into him while shopping, etc. At least she was honest and said what she felt about his death.



I have to admit I find it rather disturbing that both, Walter and Carrie, are actually glad and relived that the OM is dead. He did what he did but we are still talking about a human being here. Don't you both have any compassion left in you?


----------



## Carrie420

bandit.45 said:


> Carrie, what are you currently doing to prove to Walter that you are affair-proofing your life?
> 
> Are you distancing yourself from outside uneccesary male friendships? Are you being completely transparent? Have you tuned over all your passwords? Have you dismantled your FB page? Have you set straight those friends who have criticized Walter for shunning you and not accepting fault for your affair? Have you done away with toxic friendships?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have given my phone and email passwords to Jack. I do no social media. We had a GPS installed in my car. I am taking polygraphs. I quit my job to be with Jack on a daily basis. I have no male friends.


----------



## WalterWhite420

adriana said:


> I have to admit I find it rather disturbing that both, Walter and Carrie, are actually glad and relived that the OM is dead. He did what he did but we are still talking about a human being here. Don't you both have any compassion left in you?


Adriana,

I don't normally have enemies. Please consider who this man was to me and Carrie. Can't you see why we would feel the way we do? I'm not saying we're right and justified in feeling that way. Just that it's a somewhat normal feeling.


----------



## Thinkitthrough

Adriana: Just how much compassion the OM had for Walter Carrie. If he is true to form the OM had only one interest and one objective. That his need for a piece of Carrie be superseded any thoughts of How much damage he was doing to their, and several other relationships. How much did he concern himself about The suffering, humiliation and degradation he would inflict on his lover. before he Dumped her.
I don't think the OM has earned any consideration or compassion.


----------



## staystrong

Thinkitthrough said:


> Adriana: Just how much compassion the OM had for Walter Carrie. If he is true to form the OM had only one interest and one objective. That his need for a piece of Carrie be superseded any thoughts of How much damage he was doing to their, and several other relationships. How much did he concern himself about The suffering, humiliation and degradation he would inflict on his lover. before he Dumped her.
> I don't think the OM has earned any consideration or compassion.


Well, neither thought they would get caught. That's the whole point; it would be a secret. You're making the assumption that he would 'dump' her or 'use' her. As if she was some kind of sexual prey. An object of desire, yes, but not prey. You make it sound like he was going to get her drunk and make his big move. Have his jollies and move on. Please. He would have taken as much as she was willing to give out. If Carrie is the prize Walt describes, then OM was probably enamored with her on some level. Keep in mind they knew each other, there was some kind of pre-existing relationship. 

Carrie has ignored questions about the details of their friendship and has not adequately described why she was home from work that day, or what prompted the kind of meeting which would make OM comfortable enough to bring a bottle of wine in the middle of the day to a married woman's home and make a pass. Were they just going to "have a drink and talk" or was there some sort of "parting gift" implied, a big "goodbye" (he was leaving the company) to relieve the sexual tension that had been building up over time? If I was the BH, these are the things I would need some honesty about. As much as it hurt, I'd want to know. 

Walt, had you ever met this man? At a workplace party or other social function? Did you know any of Carrie's co-workers personally? Were you emotionally involved in that aspect of her life?

Carrie, how did you explain your distress at work? Did you keep people in the dark about the separation?


----------



## staystrong

WalterWhite420 said:


> Adriana,
> 
> I don't normally have enemies. Please consider who this man was to me and Carrie. Can't you see why we would feel the way we do? I'm not saying we're right and justified in feeling that way. Just that it's a somewhat normal feeling.


Yes, it's perfectly understandable to feel that way and it helps re-establish your bond.

But he didn't deserve death, as some posters seem to indicate. 

Moving on.


----------



## davecarter

adriana said:


> I have to admit I find it rather disturbing that both, Walter and Carrie, are actually glad and relived that the OM is dead. He did what he did but we are still talking about a human being here. Don't you both have any compassion left in you?


I think this thread could go down in TAM history...


----------



## 101Abn

Carrie and walternly advice I have is don't even think about the death of the on.look at him as one less POS that will interfere in some one else's marriage.I wish you the best of luck in your R.I look at it if you are successful it will be a victory for marriage and two less fees for the damn lawyers.best of luck


----------



## dogman

vellocet said:


> Enjoying the thought of someone getting killed, unless its somoen like bin Laden, is pretty f'd up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's debatable.



My caveman brain has quite a bit of satisfaction in the thought of certain people dying.....but that's not my fault it's the cave mans fault. Hehe


----------



## Carrie420

Carrie420 said:


> I have given my phone and email passwords to Jack. I do no social media. We had a GPS installed in my car. I am taking polygraphs. I quit my job to be with Jack on a daily basis. I have no male friends.


Plus I insisted that Jack install keylogger software on our home (only) PC. He's done so.


----------



## WalterWhite420

101Abn said:


> Carrie and walternly advice I have is don't even think about the death of the on.look at him as one less POS that will interfere in some one else's marriage.I wish you the best of luck in your R.I look at it if you are successful it will be a victory for marriage and two less fees for the damn lawyers.best of luck


Thank you.


----------



## WalterWhite420

PhillyGuy13 said:


> I would hope people would have better things to do than to post anonymous fake stories on a marriage blog to trick other anonymous posters. But that's just me. I think Walter is a good writer, a good story teller, but I don't think it's fake.
> 
> Anyway, wish you both the best in your reconciliation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Especially when said posters (Carrie and I) are Forum Supporters. 

I certainly would not pay money TWICE to support this forum (one payment for me, and a separate payment for Carrie), if I was making this up.


----------



## adriana

WalterWhite420 said:


> Adriana,
> 
> I don't normally have enemies. Please consider who this man was to me and Carrie. Can't you see why we would feel the way we do? I'm not saying we're right and justified in feeling that way. Just that it's a somewhat normal feeling.



Walter, I'm a peaceful person but, if I were a man, I could absolutely see myself beating up the OM, just like you did, in similar kind of situation. I have no problem with that part. But being "glad and relived" that he is dead is simply stretching it way too far.

You're desperately clinging to Carrie now, but if you want a real shot at long term reconciliation with her, you will have to acknowledge and accept her part in the affair, and then truly and wholeheartedly forgive her. Not everyone can do it. Just look at my avatar if you want to see a person who couldn't. 

Carrie doesn't appear to be a person who can be persuaded into doing something she doesn't want to do. You found her with the OM in you marital bed because she wanted him there. And, as much as she is avoiding revealing details of her relationship with him, at least here, you seem to be avoiding accepting the fact that she was a willing participant and prefer to put the blame on the OM. 

As for Carrie being " actually glad and relived" that her friend and ex lover is dead because she doesn't want to run into him while shopping.... WOW, just WOW. :scratchhead:


----------



## bandit.45

I like William Muney's take on revenge: 


Favorite Scene in Unforgiven - YouTube


----------



## adriana

bandit.45 said:


> I like William Muney's take on revenge:
> 
> 
> Favorite Scene in Unforgiven - YouTube



I absolutely love that movie.


----------



## bfree

One of my favorite movies. "We all have it coming." True enough. Also from another scene:

"I don't deserve this."

"Deserve got nothin to do with it."


----------



## bandit.45

I agree that the OM didn't "deserve" to die.

The car wreck was not karma, it was not a cosmic reckoning. 

It was a guy probably not paying attention to the road ahead and he bit it. Happens every day in every city in the world. 

Carrie was not a victim, she was not a pushover. He did not seduce her, he did not corrupt her saintly heart. 

He was a guy with a d!ck, who found himself getting into a nice, cozy friendship with a hot married woman who seemed to want him. It would be hard for any warm blooded male to resist the lure of a beautiful, bored, married gal looking for some fun and excitement outside her marriage. 

Carrie walked down the road of adultery holding the OM's hand...willingly.


----------



## lenzi

WalterWhite420 said:


> Especially when said posters (Carrie and I) are Forum Supporters.
> 
> I certainly would not pay money TWICE to support this forum (one payment for me, and a separate payment for Carrie), if I was making this up.


The forum support does give you more credibility, that much is true.

That much being said, the minimum payment is $4.99 to be a supporter.

"If" this whole thread was a troll, $9.98 isn't all that much for some cheap entertainment. Half the cost of a typical movie nowadays.

Just say'en.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: My Living Hell*



bandit.45 said:


> Carrie walked down the road of adultery holding the OM's hand...willingly.


Yup, and now she needs to figure out and explain "why" to Walter if she wants this reconciliation to succeed.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Far be it for me to offer anyone relationship advice on here, with the nonsense I find myself dealing with. But I will say if Walter and Carrie are glad the OM is dead, there is nothing wrong with that. Their feelings are their feelings and it's not right or wrong. We are trained as a society to respect the dead. I get it. I'm sure somewhere this guy has friends and family mourning him. I am positive someone somewhere valued his being on this earth. Let those people mourn him. In Walter and Carries' world he was a menace and a predator. If I had someone who threatened my marriage on any level, or my children in any way you can bet I'd be glad he was gone. 

Others may not feel that way and that is fine too. That's your prerogative.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

He wasn't a predator... 

A doosh? Yes. 

If he was a predator, it's the first time I've heard of a predator predating another predator. Carrie was on the prowl for him too. 

Carrie comes across as a very smart, very savvy gal. She wasn't tricked or trapped into this affair. They pursued each other.


----------



## kristin2349

WalterWhite420 said:


> Especially when said posters (Carrie and I) are Forum Supporters.
> 
> I certainly would not pay money TWICE to support this forum (one payment for me, and a separate payment for Carrie), if I was making this up.



Walter/Jack I've found your thread very interesting. I've have posted a few times.

Your pointing out you are a paid forum supporter is a bit of a weak point. I applaud you doing so. My point is you have both invested a tremendous amount of time posting here. Time is money. Your investment beyond being a paid supporter is obvious. It seems as if you are bothered by "non-believers". They will exist in this nameless/faceless forum. 

It is consistent with something that comes up often. As if paying a PREMIUM for a MC, or hiring a tantric sex counselor (you pointed out you paid her), makes it more credible or somehow better. I have had really high paid shrinks that aren't that good. I've gotten timely invaluable advice (just by lurking) on this site, much better than most shrinks I've seen.

I'm not having a go at you. I just find that interesting, it is obvious that money is not an issue in your marriage. Nor is it in mine, same with children. It makes it both easier to focus on each other, and easier to cut and run for both parties.


----------



## Philat

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Far be it for me to offer anyone relationship advice on here, with the nonsense I find myself dealing with. But I will say if Walter and Carrie are glad the OM is dead, there is nothing wrong with that. Their feelings are their feelings and it's not right or wrong. We are trained as a society to respect the dead. I get it. I'm sure somewhere this guy has friends and family mourning him. I am positive someone somewhere valued his being on this earth. Let those people mourn him. In Walter and Carries' world he was a menace and a predator. If I had someone who threatened my marriage on any level, or my children in any way you can bet I'd be glad he was gone.
> 
> Others may not feel that way and that is fine too. That's your prerogative.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just to add my two cents on this point only: My wife's former AP drank himself to death, and she was the one who found him. I am a compassionate and kind man (so I'm told), but I have never felt regret or sorrow at this guy's fate.


----------



## sandc

Philat said:


> Just to add my two cents on this point only: My wife's former AP drank himself to death, and she was the one who found him. I am a compassionate and kind man (so I'm told), but I have never felt regret or sorrow at this guy's fate.


Did your wife feel anything?


----------



## cool12

adriana said:


> You're desperately clinging to Carrie now, but if you want a real shot at long term reconciliation with her, you will have to acknowledge and accept her part in the affair, and then truly and wholeheartedly forgive her. Not everyone can do it. Just look at my avatar if you want to see a person who couldn't.
> 
> *Carrie doesn't appear to be a person who can be persuaded into doing something she doesn't want to do. You found her with the OM in you marital bed because she wanted him there. * And, as much as she is avoiding revealing details of her relationship with him, at least here, you seem to be avoiding accepting the fact that she was a willing participant and prefer to put the blame on the OM.
> 
> As for Carrie being " actually glad and relived" that her friend and ex lover is dead because she doesn't want to run into him while shopping.... WOW, just WOW. :scratchhead:


WWs don't normally like to tell their BS the juicy details of how the sex act was pleasurable and how they really wanted it. 

and THAT will be a tough MC session when/if they get to it.


----------



## Philat

sandc said:


> Did your wife feel anything?


Yes, she certainly did. Their EA (if that's all it was) had degenerated into a salvage project for her (he was incapable of giving anything by that time), but her loyalty was definitely with him. Check out my threads for the full story.


----------



## sandc

Philat said:


> Yes, she certainly did. Their EA (if that's all it was) had degenerated into a salvage project for her (he was incapable of giving anything by that time), but her loyalty was definitely with him. Check out my threads for the full story.


See, that's what most reasonable people expect. I would expect the WW to have *some* sort of feeling if the OM died. It just seems sociopathic to lack that.


I'm not sure sociopath is the right word, but you know what I mean.


----------



## Philat

sandc said:


> See, that's what most reasonable people expect. I would expect the WW to have *some* sort of feeling if the OM died. It just seems sociopathic to lack that.
> 
> 
> I'm not sure sociopath is the right word, but you know what I mean.


Sure do.


----------



## WalterWhite420

lenzi said:


> The forum support does give you more credibility, that much is true.
> 
> That much being said, the minimum payment is $4.99 to be a supporter.
> 
> "If" this whole thread was a troll, $9.98 isn't all that much for some cheap entertainment. Half the cost of a typical movie nowadays.
> 
> Just say'en.


Mine was a recurring yearly payment of a whopping $15.  Carrie made a payment as well.

Besides, with all the MILLIONS of places on this internet where I could be a troll for FREE (including here), then why would I PAY to be a troll anywhere?


----------



## staystrong

Damn, Decorum comes in with the heavy. That was a fine post.

One concept that is used a lot around here: boundaries

The BW's and xWW's are pretty good at calling out WW's on their lack of boundaries. The "I'm a woman so I know what you were thinking.." critique. It's been brought in this thread a few times already.



> They cannot conceive of the man giving it to them as a creep because who wants or would be flattered by the attention of a creep.


Are the BH's (including Walt) supposed to believe that our wives don't know when a "good guy" is creeping on them. Is this similar to how wives sometimes remark to their husbands that "that woman was coming on to you" and he responds "whaatt? no, she wasn't" but it's the subtle kind of female creeping that women pick up on but their men do not? (either that or they are forced into denying they noticed it lest they get the ire of their wives?)

Such a big issue...


----------



## WalterWhite420

kristin2349 said:


> Walter/Jack I've found your thread very interesting. I've have posted a few times.
> 
> Your pointing out you are a paid forum supporter is a bit of a weak point. I applaud you doing so. My point is you have both invested a tremendous amount of time posting here. Time is money. Your investment beyond being a paid supporter is obvious. It seems as if you are bothered by "non-believers". They will exist in this nameless/faceless forum.
> 
> It is consistent with something that comes up often. As if paying a PREMIUM for a MC, or hiring a tantric sex counselor (you pointed out you paid her), makes it more credible or somehow better. I have had really high paid shrinks that aren't that good. I've gotten timely invaluable advice (just by lurking) on this site, much better than most shrinks I've seen.
> 
> I'm not having a go at you. I just find that interesting, it is obvious that money is not an issue in your marriage. Nor is it in mine, same with children. It makes it both easier to focus on each other, and easier to cut and run for both parties.


Thank you Kristin.

Just FYI, we hired the MC based upon her references and well-documented results at saving marriages. The fact that she charges a premium price was not a consideration. We didn't even know her fee until we decided she was the one we wanted.


----------



## staystrong

WalterWhite420 said:


> Mine was a recurring yearly payment of a whopping $15.  Carrie made a payment as well.
> 
> Besides, with all the MILLIONS of places on this internet where I could be a troll for FREE (including here), then why would I PAY to be a troll anywhere?


You're a philanthrollpist?


----------



## bfree

staystrong said:


> You're a philanthrollpist?


A philanthropist troll?


----------



## MattMatt

vellocet said:


> Enjoying the thought of someone getting killed, unless its somoen like bin Laden, is pretty f'd up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's debatable.


Would I have wanted my wife's AP dead? 

I'd like to say "no", that I was more civilised than that. But if I'd said that, I'd be a f**king liar!

Yes, I wanted him dead, damnit!


----------



## PhillyGuy13

I don't always troll on Internet forums, but when I do, I prefer Talk About Marriage. Stay committed, my friends.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WalterWhite420

staystrong said:


> Well, neither thought they would get caught. That's the whole point; it would be a secret. You're making the assumption that he would 'dump' her or 'use' her. As if she was some kind of sexual prey. An object of desire, yes, but not prey. You make it sound like he was going to get her drunk and make his big move. Have his jollies and move on. Please. He would have taken as much as she was willing to give out. If Carrie is the prize Walt describes, then OM was probably enamored with her on some level. Keep in mind they knew each other, there was some kind of pre-existing relationship.
> 
> Carrie has ignored questions about the details of their friendship and has not adequately described why she was home from work that day, or what prompted the kind of meeting which would make OM comfortable enough to bring a bottle of wine in the middle of the day to a married woman's home and make a pass. Were they just going to "have a drink and talk" or was there some sort of "parting gift" implied, a big "goodbye" (he was leaving the company) to relieve the sexual tension that had been building up over time? If I was the BH, these are the things I would need some honesty about. As much as it hurt, I'd want to know.
> 
> Walt, had you ever met this man? At a workplace party or other social function? Did you know any of Carrie's co-workers personally? Were you emotionally involved in that aspect of her life?
> 
> Carrie, how did you explain your distress at work? Did you keep people in the dark about the separation?


Carrie has answered the questions you spoke of to her IC, our MC, and me. I've left no question unasked, and she's answered all questions thoroughly. She's not yet comfortable disclosing all those details here yet. Nor am I. Maybe later.

I have 8 good questions for her to answer on a polygraph tomorrow. We'll see. If she lies even once, about anything, it's over. Forever. We've talked about this and she knows.

I did know several of Carrie's co-workers well. But not the OM.


----------



## WalterWhite420

adriana said:


> Walter, I'm a peaceful person but, if I were a man, I could absolutely see myself beating up the OM, just like you did, in similar kind of situation. I have no problem with that part. But being "glad and relived" that he is dead is simply stretching it way too far.
> 
> You're desperately clinging to Carrie now, but if you want a real shot at long term reconciliation with her, you will have to acknowledge and accept her part in the affair, and then truly and wholeheartedly forgive her. Not everyone can do it. Just look at my avatar if you want to see a person who couldn't.
> 
> Carrie doesn't appear to be a person who can be persuaded into doing something she doesn't want to do. You found her with the OM in you marital bed because she wanted him there. And, as much as she is avoiding revealing details of her relationship with him, at least here, you seem to be avoiding accepting the fact that she was a willing participant and prefer to put the blame on the OM.
> 
> As for Carrie being " actually glad and relived" that her friend and ex lover is dead because she doesn't want to run into him while shopping.... WOW, just WOW. :scratchhead:


Thank you Adriana. 

I'm sorry that I hate another person so much that I'm glad he's dead, and even that I wish I had killed him myself. But that's how I feel. I'm just being honest.

If I may ask, how do you feel about bin Ladin's death? I imagine that you, like most Americans, are glad he's dead. And maybe wish you could have been the one to put the bullets through his chest and forehead. Hell, I think most Americans wish they could have been the one who killed him.

Can't you see why I would have similar feelings about the OM? I hate him to the core and I'm glad he's dead and wish I could resurrect him so I could kill him all over again. I'm sorry, but, as Mike said to Walter White in "Breaking Bad", no more half measures. Only full measures from now on.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Good luck to both of you tomorrow. Hope the process goes smoothly and you guys can take the next step toward R
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lenzi

WalterWhite420 said:


> Besides, with all the MILLIONS of places on this internet where I could be a troll for FREE (including here), then why would I PAY to be a troll anywhere?


I agree- it doesn't make much sense for a troll to pay for a membership on an obscure internet discussion board when there are thousands of them on the internet.

Although people often do things that defy logic or rational explanation. If you think about it, internet trolls do pay for their trolling using a resource that might be even more valuable than money, at least for some people- I'm talking about their free time.


----------



## WalterWhite420

Today was a pretty good day.

Carrie and I went to see an early movie, and had a nice lunch afterward. Then we went to do one of my favorite things: clothes shopping for Carrie. I love to watch her try on new clothes. She always asks the same 2 questions:

1. Do I look good in this? (the right answer is always yes)

2. Does this look too tight on me? (the right answer is always no)

Then we came home and talked for a long time about things relevant to our reconciliation. At one point, she got quiet and I could see tears in her eyes. And she said she needed to ask me something. She asked if I was being completely truthful regarding my relationships with other women during our separation. I was honest and said yes. Then she asked if I had ever had an affair. I was honest and said no. I told her I’d be glad to take a polygraph. But she said no, she believes me. It was a good discussion.

Later we lightened up a bit and watched reruns of Modern Family and laughed a lot. Laughter is good medicine.


----------



## WalterWhite420

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Good luck to both of you tomorrow. Hope the process goes smoothly and you guys can take the next step toward R
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you.


----------



## WalterWhite420

adriana said:


> I have to admit I find it rather disturbing that both, Walter and Carrie, are actually glad and relived that the OM is dead. He did what he did but we are still talking about a human being here. Don't you both have any compassion left in you?


I'm sorry Adriana. I have no compassion for that man.


----------



## Carrie420

staystrong said:


> Well, neither thought they would get caught. That's the whole point; it would be a secret. You're making the assumption that he would 'dump' her or 'use' her. As if she was some kind of sexual prey. An object of desire, yes, but not prey. You make it sound like he was going to get her drunk and make his big move. Have his jollies and move on. Please. He would have taken as much as she was willing to give out. If Carrie is the prize Walt describes, then OM was probably enamored with her on some level. Keep in mind they knew each other, there was some kind of pre-existing relationship.
> 
> Carrie has ignored questions about the details of their friendship and has not adequately described why she was home from work that day, or what prompted the kind of meeting which would make OM comfortable enough to bring a bottle of wine in the middle of the day to a married woman's home and make a pass. Were they just going to "have a drink and talk" or was there some sort of "parting gift" implied, a big "goodbye" (he was leaving the company) to relieve the sexual tension that had been building up over time? If I was the BH, these are the things I would need some honesty about. As much as it hurt, I'd want to know.
> 
> Walt, had you ever met this man? At a workplace party or other social function? Did you know any of Carrie's co-workers personally? Were you emotionally involved in that aspect of her life?
> 
> Carrie, how did you explain your distress at work? Did you keep people in the dark about the separation?


It's hard for me to answer these questions in a public forum, at least right now. Jack knows all these details. I've told him.


----------



## Carrie420

lenzi said:


> I agree- it doesn't make much sense for a troll to pay for a membership on an obscure internet discussion board when there are thousands of them on the internet.
> 
> Although people often do things that defy logic or rational explanation. If you think about it, internet trolls do pay for their trolling using a resource that might be even more valuable than money, at least for some people- I'm talking about their free time.


But if they donate their time AND money, wouldn't they be double stupid in being a troll?


----------



## lenzi

Carrie420 said:


> But if they donate their time AND money, wouldn't they be double stupid in being a troll?


I don't know that it would be stupid. Just something I have difficulty understanding.

For example, my girlfriend has spent hours and hours, day after day, knitting a scarf using one of those kits where you go back and forth with the yarn and pulling it through a hole. I watch her do this and I see a scarf slowly materialize, and I think to myself, how can doing that for hours and hours and days and days be enjoyable? Especially when you can probably go and buy a scarf for less money than the yarn and the sewing kit sold for. 

My brother goes on these "church missions"- most recently to the Hurricane Sandy ravaged area of NY, to help rebuild houses that were destroyed in the storm, leaving people homeless. He enjoys volunteering his time and effort for these people, and I get it, I really do. But I don't understand why he PAYS money to the church-it cost him and his son _hundreds of dollars_ for the privilege to join the church group on their volunteer trip, and lay on a hard wooden floor of a church at night while repairing storm damaged houses all day long. 

You can probably think of many examples like that one, where people spend a huge chunk of time and money on something that other people have virtually no interest in whatsoever.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.


----------



## SoulStorm

Carrie420 said:


> It's hard for me to answer these questions in a public forum, at least right now. Jack knows all these details. I've told him.


It's hard because you are ashamed of your actions. You are ashamed of the mitigating factors that you willingly let happen that day

It's hard because you knew what Could happen and you allowed yourself to get Inebriated beyond recognition to lower your inhibitions.

Your are too smart Carrie, You are not an idiot. What happened that day happened because you said to hades with it and you needed the release after being in an EA with OM. He was leaving so you surmised that this was your last chance if it was going to happen
You knew Jack was going to be gone for an allotted amount of time so you used that time to determine whether you would or not.

After much drinking and rebuffing his advances, you gave in. I only question whether it was a one night_stand or many instances of one


----------



## kristin2349

When I do support something or donate I don't point it out. When I buy something expensive I don't leave the price tag on it so everyone will know. Just my input , it's free.


----------



## Carrie420

kristin2349 said:


> When I do support something or donate I don't point it out. When I buy something expensive I don't leave the price tag on it so everyone will know. Just my input , it's free.


If the store manager stops you after you've left the store and accuses you of stealing, wouldn't you willingly show him/her your receipt? That's not bragging about how much you paid. It's meeting a challenge with the truth.

We contributed. And I'm glad we did, because this forum played a large part in helping Jack to agree to reconciliation. We're thankful. But we also want the good people who've helped us here to know we're genuine.


----------



## Carrie420

SoulStorm said:


> It's hard because you are ashamed of your actions. You are ashamed of the mitigating factors that you willingly let happen that day
> 
> It's hard because you knew what Could happen and you allowed yourself to get Inebriated beyond recognition to lower your inhibitions.
> 
> Your are too smart Carrie, You are not an idiot. What happened that day happened because you said to hades with it and you needed the release after being in an EA with OM. He was leaving so you surmised that this was your last chance if it was going to happen
> You knew Jack was going to be gone for an allotted amount of time so you used that time to determine whether you would or not.
> 
> After much drinking and rebuffing his advances, you gave in. I only question whether it was a one night_stand or many instances of one


It was a ONS. And yes, I'm quite ashamed.


----------



## Carrie420

bandit.45 said:


> I agree that the OM didn't "deserve" to die.
> 
> The car wreck was not karma, it was not a cosmic reckoning.
> 
> It was a guy probably not paying attention to the road ahead and he bit it. Happens every day in every city in the world.
> 
> Carrie was not a victim, she was not a pushover. He did not seduce her, he did not corrupt her saintly heart.
> 
> He was a guy with a d!ck, who found himself getting into a nice, cozy friendship with a hot married woman who seemed to want him. It would be hard for any warm blooded male to resist the lure of a beautiful, bored, married gal looking for some fun and excitement outside her marriage.
> 
> Carrie walked down the road of adultery holding the OM's hand...willingly.


That's hard for me to face, but I know you're right. I've made every excuse known to man. But the truth is, much as you say...


----------



## kristin2349

Carrie420 said:


> If the store manager stops you after you've left the store and accuses you of stealing, wouldn't you willingly show him/her your receipt? That's not bragging about how much you paid. It's meeting a challenge with the truth.


I think it's a bit different. But if called upon I would offer proof yes. Being a forum supporter is great it does not make anything fact. It means you threw a few bucks on top of a ton of time. People will question, you both seem to have issues with that.

Blind faith and unquestioning belief is not something I'll give easily having been betrayed by people IRL.

Like I said previously I've had some "unbelievable" things happen to me. If called upon, I could respond with solid "evidence" that it occurred. Links to newspaper articles, names, dates, times...


----------



## kristin2349

Carrie420 said:


> We contributed. And I'm glad we did, because this forum played a large part in helping Jack to agree to reconciliation. We're thankful. But we also want the good people who've helped us here to know we're genuine.


Isn't it also nice to know that even the cynics and skeptics do still offer advice and support, knowing that they've been fooled before.

It wasn't just the forum support being pointed out. The PREMIUM MC (Walter's description in his post). Tossing money at something doesn't automatically make it "real"

You've already got a following, and lots of great ongoing support. Best of luck.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Carrie420 said:


> It was a ONS. And yes, I'm quite ashamed.


Was it a ONS or an EA that turned into a PA one time? I think there is a difference but that could be just my personal definitions. I had a EA, if it went physical once at the end it wouldn't have called it a ONS but a EA that turned PA or simply PA. 
Not trying to be difficult, just knowing that for myself little things like that would mean something bigger- like I was minimizing it to avoid more guilt.


----------



## GusPolinski

Pretty new here but I feel the need to deposit an additional $0.02 USD into the virtual parking meter...

1. There seem to be an awful lot of assumptions being thrown around within this particular thread, especially w/ regard to what seems to be everyone else's interpretation of what did or didn't happen, might have happened, could have happened, etc. As several folks have pointed out in other threads, each couple's experiences with infidelity are unique. It may be tempting to sort of graft in little bits of our own lives and situations when reading the trials and tribulations of others, but that doesn't make it so.

2. While Walt and Carrie have chosen to share their story and struggle w/ everyone here, at the end of the day, they're pretty much accountable to only themselves and each other. Of course there is also some accountability to family and, to a much lesser degree, to close friends, but the list pretty much ends there. Just because something hasn't been shared here doesn't mean it hasn't been shared.


----------



## Carrie420

kristin2349 said:


> Isn't it also nice to know that even the cynics and skeptics do still offer advice and support, knowing that they've been fooled before.
> 
> It wasn't just the forum support being pointed out. The PREMIUM MC (Walter's description in his post). Tossing money at something doesn't automatically make it "real"
> 
> You've already got a following, and lots of great ongoing support. Best of luck.


If you've got nothing to offer in the form of help, then why are you here?


----------



## kristin2349

Carrie420 said:


> If you've got nothing to offer in the form of help, then why are you here?


 Why am I in your thread? Same reason as others, some who post and some who lurk. Those that easily believe , and those of us who've been betrayed. Good advise is found in all threads here. Are you both posting solely for your own benefit?

You seem to have the help of professionals and family, and as you've pointed out many of the good people here. A public forum.

I made an observation. I've not tried to be inflammatory. If making a point I find valid isn't helpful my apologies, I still consider it valid. If we all agree there isn't much to be said.

As to why I'm on this site, your thread isn't the place.

I find your story sad and interesting, and am curious to see the progress and wish you both a positive outcome. Having been betrayed and now being in reconciliation. Again I wish you both well.


----------



## lenzi




----------



## Carrie420

kristin2349 said:


> Why am I in your thread? Same reason as others, some who post and some who lurk. Those that easily believe , and those of us who've been betrayed. Good advise is found in all threads here. Are you both posting solely for your own benefit?
> 
> You seem to have the help of professionals and family, and as you've pointed out many of the good people here. A public forum.
> 
> I made an observation. I've not tried to be inflammatory. If making a point I find valid isn't helpful my apologies, I still consider it valid. If we all agree there isn't much to be said.
> 
> As to why I'm on this site, your thread isn't the place.
> 
> I find your story sad and interesting, and am curious to see the progress and wish you both a positive outcome. Having been betrayed and now being in reconciliation. Again I wish you both well.


Thank you. That post was encouraging, and I appreciate it.


----------



## adriana

WalterWhite420 said:


> Thank you Adriana.
> 
> I'm sorry that I hate another person so much that I'm glad he's dead, and even that I wish I had killed him myself. But that's how I feel. I'm just being honest.
> 
> If I may ask, how do you feel about bin Ladin's death? I imagine that you, like most Americans, are glad he's dead. And maybe wish you could have been the one to put the bullets through his chest and forehead. Hell, I think most Americans wish they could have been the one who killed him.
> 
> Can't you see why I would have similar feelings about the OM? I hate him to the core and I'm glad he's dead and wish I could resurrect him so I could kill him all over again. I'm sorry, but, as Mike said to Walter White in "Breaking Bad", no more half measures. Only full measures from now on.



Walter, any attempt, on your part, to compare the OM to Osama bin Laden is patently absurd and veritably begs for derisive laughter. 

I remember very well the night when bin Laden was killed and both, myself and my husband, were absolutely ecstatic about it. But, I never dreamed about being the one who pulled the trigger. Would I do it, if I were the only one, who could get to him? Yes, I can imagine myself doing it in such circumstances but I'm sure that I wouldn't enjoy the experience. Not a chance. 

You know, Walter, when I talked to the OW's husband, he told me that she can be quite persuasive after a few drinks and that he wouldn't be surprised at all if she was the aggressor when they had sex for the first time on their business trip. But, does it really change anything? Nope. At least not for me.

My husband, just like your wife, is a smart, articulate individual who has no problem with standing up for himself when needed. And, like with your wife, it's very difficult to persuade him into doing something he doesn't want to do. He ended up in bed with the OW because he wanted it to happen. I know it. But, unlikely you, I'm not trying to delude myself about it. And, I'm not trying to misplace my anger and blame the OW for his affair. She owns me nothing. I didn't dance with her on my wedding night. It's my husband who dumped a pile of _merde_ on me.... not her!

Good luck to both of you and I rest my case.


----------



## WalterWhite420

adriana said:


> Walter, any attempt, on your part, to compare the OM to Osama bin Laden is patently absurd and veritably begs for derisive laughter.
> 
> I remember very well the night when bin Laden was killed and both, myself and my husband, were absolutely ecstatic about it. But, I never dreamed about being the one who pulled the trigger. Would I do it, if I were the only one, who could get to him? Yes, I can imagine myself doing it in such circumstances but I'm sure that I wouldn't enjoy the experience. Not a chance.
> 
> You know, Walter, when I talked to the OW's husband, he told me that she can be quite persuasive after a few drinks and that he wouldn't be surprised at all if she was the aggressor when they had sex for the first time on their business trip. But, does it really change anything? Nope. At least not for me.
> 
> My husband, just like your wife, is a smart, articulate individual who has no problem with standing up for himself when needed. And, like with your wife, it's very difficult to persuade him into doing something he doesn't want to do. He ended up in bed with the OW because he wanted it to happen. I know it. But, unlikely you, I'm not trying to delude myself about it. And, I'm not trying to misplace my anger and blame the OW for his affair. She owns me nothing. I didn't dance with her on my wedding night. It's my husband who dumped a pile of _merde_ on me.... not her!
> 
> Good luck to both of you and I rest my case.


Thank you Adriana. I'm doing the best I know to do.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

bigfoot said:


> Like I said, "I'm sorry". If both of you are real, I wish you luck. I will go away because I already made my mind up after being totally engrossed in your story. Either its all fake or Walter is writing what he hopes would have happened in real life. I don't know, I have nothing to add, I can't help, so I will leave. And my apology about saying this is really sincere. Good bye.


This is your third post on these forums?

Then 'bigfoot' is quite well describing your social skills? :scratchhead:


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Carrie420 said:


> It's hard for me to answer these questions in a public forum, at least right now. Jack knows all these details. I've told him.


I understand your reluctance, but people here are experts in deconstructing the affair as it seems to be to what it really was in many cases.

So the doubts about the story can only be taken away from 'our' forum point of view by satisfying answers to all questions.

That maybe painfull, and you two are having all the right to disclose as little or as much as you want.

But then the other posters may keep having their doubts, it is only natural. They and I only have what you feed us with. And their analytical powers ofcourse, which can be awesome.


----------



## staystrong

Decorum said:


> Staystrong I was going to PM you with a reply but I thought to check your profile to confirm you are a male since you said "our wives" and I could not tell so I am just going post it here.
> 
> PM...
> I hope you don’t mind a pm on this I feel like I have already used several days posting space on Walters thread.


Answered in PM. And yes, I'm male. 

And I agree, there's probably too much side discussion on this thread. Apologies to Walter and Carrie, I guess your thread just sparks a lot of general discussion.


----------



## davecarter

lenzi said:


>


You better stock up on _both_...


----------



## dogman

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Was it a ONS or an EA that turned into a PA one time? I think there is a difference but that could be just my personal definitions. I had a EA, if it went physical once at the end it wouldn't have called it a ONS but a EA that turned PA or simply PA.
> Not trying to be difficult, just knowing that for myself little things like that would mean something bigger- like I was minimizing it to avoid more guilt.



This is an important point that should not be missed.

In my book a ONS is a one time deal with a stranger. Or a one time deal with a person that, prior to the sexual encounter, there was no predicting a sex act.

Carrie and OM had a long period of wind up that culminated in an emotional attachment that led to a sex act to consummate the prior week. This is not a ONS. Sex once....maybe, but not a ONS.


----------



## Carrie420

See_Listen_Love said:


> I understand your reluctance, but people here are experts in deconstructing the affair as it seems to be to what it really was in many cases.
> 
> So the doubts about the story can only be taken away from 'our' forum point of view by satisfying answers to all questions.
> 
> That maybe painfull, and you two are having all the right to disclose as little or as much as you want.
> 
> But then the other posters may keep having their doubts, it is only natural. They and I only have what you feed us with. And their analytical powers ofcourse, which can be awesome.


I plan to post some of those things here as I can. It's hard. Hard for me to write them, and hard for Jack to read them.


----------



## Carrie420

Changed my avatar to a real pic of our budding plants...taken last night.

Off to the polygraph. I'm confident.


----------



## Oldfaithful

I've been following this on and off. I hope the poly goes well. 
I couldn't find where this was answered but what happened to the OMs wallet and clothes? 

Are you engaging in any Tantric practices right now? Does it help with healing your relationship?


----------



## raven3321

WalterWhite420 said:


> Today was a pretty good day.
> 
> Carrie and I went to see an early movie, and had a nice lunch afterward. Then we went to do one of my favorite things: clothes shopping for Carrie. I love to watch her try on new clothes. She always asks the same 2 questions:
> 
> 1. Do I look good in this? (the right answer is always yes)
> 
> 2. Does this look too tight on me? (the right answer is always no)
> 
> Then we came home and talked for a long time about things relevant to our reconciliation. At one point, she got quiet and I could see tears in her eyes. And she said she needed to ask me something. She asked if I was being completely truthful regarding my relationships with other women during our separation. I was honest and said yes. Then she asked if I had ever had an affair. I was honest and said no. I told her I’d be glad to take a polygraph. But she said no, she believes me. It was a good discussion.
> 
> Later we lightened up a bit and watched reruns of Modern Family and laughed a lot. Laughter is good medicine.


Sorry if this is the late freight; dude you actually like going shopping for women's clothing? Yeah, she must be either extremely beautiful or you're extremely high. (or both)

Jack, you ought to write a book on how to husband a wife properly. I doubt if I'll read it but still.......


----------



## vellocet

MattMatt said:


> Would I have wanted my wife's AP dead?
> 
> I'd like to say "no", that I was more civilised than that. But if I'd said that, I'd be a f**king liar!
> 
> Yes, I wanted him dead, damnit!


If I would have wanted the the OM in my situation dead, then I'd also have wanted my xwife dead too.

Mad at the OM I was, and had a right to be. But not more angry with him than at my wife at the time.


----------



## WalterWhite420

Oldfaithful said:


> I've been following this on and off. I hope the poly goes well.
> I couldn't find where this was answered but what happened to the OMs wallet and clothes?
> 
> Are you engaging in any Tantric practices right now? Does it help with healing your relationship?


I burned the OM's personal effects in the fireplace. Clothes, shoes, belt, and wallet.

We still do Tantric. Once or twice per week. It's an experience that can hardly be described in words, and yes it has helped us heal our relationship.


----------



## sandc

So you're back from the polygraph and...


----------



## WalterWhite420

raven3321 said:


> Sorry if this is the late freight; dude you actually like going shopping for women's clothing? Yeah, she must be either extremely beautiful or you're extremely high. (or both)
> 
> Jack, you ought to write a book on how to husband a wife properly. I doubt if I'll read it but still.......


Yes, I do love to shop for her clothes with her. I like watching her try on different things, I like her asking me if I like this or that, especially Yoga clothes and tight blue jeans.

Yes, she's extremely beautiful.


----------



## WalterWhite420

sandc said:


> So you're back from the polygraph and...


She passed sandc. No problem.


----------



## sandc

What were the questions that ended up being asked?


----------



## WalterWhite420

sandc said:


> What were the questions that ended up being asked?


I will post those here in a bit. Dinner's ready.

I'm also scheduling more polygraphs in the near future. I have more questions I want to ask.


----------



## bfree

WalterWhite420 said:


> I will post those here in a bit. Dinner's ready.
> 
> I'm also scheduling more polygraphs in the near future. I have more questions I want to ask.


If she passed this polygraph why would you need to schedule more? It would seem that she is being truthful and open. Maybe just ask her the questions and know that she's telling the truth?


----------



## WalterWhite420

bfree said:


> If she passed this polygraph why would you need to schedule more? It would seem that she is being truthful and open. Maybe just ask her the questions and know that she's telling the truth?


Maybe you're right. It's just that I had more than 8 questions I really wanted to ask.

I want to be realistic in how much I challenge her story, but I don't want to over do it.


----------



## WalterWhite420

My questions for Carrie's polygraph:

Q1: Have you ever had an affair other than with the OM? 
A: No.

Q2: Did you ever complain about our marriage to the OM?
A: No.

Q3: Did you have sex more than once with the OM?
A: No.

Q4: Did you French kiss the OM?
A: No.

Q5: Did you give the OM oral sex?
A: No.

Q6: Did the OM give you oral sex?
A: No.

Q7: Did you initiate any contact with the OM after I discovered the affair?
A: No.

Q8: Did you ever voluntarily meet with the OM after I discovered the affair?
A: No.

Those were the questions I had written down. The examiner asked all my questions, and added “control” questions.

Question #4 was an important one for me. Carrie is a very passionate kisser. When she’s really into me, Frenching is all she does. It’s deeply intimate to her.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Really happy she passed. Good news.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WalterWhite420

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Really happy she passed. Good news.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you. I thought she would pass. She had no doubt. But still, we both were relieved when it was over.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

I'm sure thats a stressful experience, no matter the circumstances.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WalterWhite420

PhillyGuy13 said:


> I'm sure thats a stressful experience, no matter the circumstances.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's a big YES. For both of us.


----------



## bandit.45

Carrie420 said:


> Changed my avatar to a real pic of our budding plants...taken last night.
> 
> Off to the polygraph. I'm confident.


...stoner....

Glad to hear you passed.


----------



## cool12

happy for you guys that she passed!
i understand you wanting more info but i'm not sure i'd go through that again. you'll eventually have to learn to trust her again. maybe not going back is a start in that direction.

congrats!


----------



## WalterWhite420

bandit.45 said:


> ...stoner....
> 
> Glad to hear you passed.


Thank you bandit.


----------



## WalterWhite420

cool12 said:


> happy for you guys that she passed!
> i understand you wanting more info but i'm not sure i'd go through that again. you'll eventually have to learn to trust her again. maybe not going back is a start in that direction.
> 
> congrats!


Thank you cool.


----------



## Carrie420

bandit.45 said:


> ...stoner....
> 
> Glad to hear you passed.


That means a lot to me coming from you Bandit...thank you.


----------



## Variance

Happy to hear this story continues to grow it's silver linings. 

The heart and soul are fascinating. Of all the questions asked #4 was most important. Sex is something that is deeply intimate but there are certainly things our partners do only for us that convey so much more love and emotion. I can feel the relief in your comments and I hope you guys have a great night. Try to enjoy passing this milestone and putting it behind you.


----------



## Carrie420

Variance said:


> Happy to hear this story continues to grow it's silver linings.
> 
> The heart and soul are fascinating. Of all the questions asked #4 was most important. Sex is something that is deeply intimate but there are certainly things our partners do only for us that convey so much more love and emotion. I can feel the relief in your comments and I hope you guys have a great night. Try to enjoy passing this milestone and putting it behind you.


Thank you so much. We will.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Carrie420 said:


> I plan to post some of those things here as I can. It's hard. Hard for me to write them, and hard for Jack to read them.


I understand that from your personal point of view, but know that Jack's brain will subconsciously keep nagging about all that is not filled in with reasonable explanations, ALL details. Even though his good willing rational mind is providing cover up for the missing parts.

And we here have read, 'seen' a boatload of the most unlikely scenario's. It would be hard to surprise the experienced posters. So people look not bad at you, just like a parent who knows something is up with his child, and waits for the child to come clean.

I myself have what others call a good marriage, and it is more than that to ourselves, it's a great companionship, a great love.

But that is not due to my having more righteousness, or an unbreakable charachter, heaven no. It's more luck that everything went somehow well on the area of other women, really more luck. What I learned on TAM has shown me where I walked on the abyss in the past. I hope to be more conscious now. 

Hope and Luck. That's it. So you will not surprise me or others, we are really the same people, all of us.


----------



## GusPolinski

Very happy to read the latest updates. I've been pulling for you guys and wish you all the best.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Well,

I am sure a secret agent would fear TAM more than the machine. Things like this below remain open, the unexplained well known red flag of the dwindling sex life.



WalterWhite420 said:


> The months prior to my discovery seemed somewhat normal, but in hindsight they were anything but.
> 
> She began working "overtime" 2 days per week. She sometimes got dolled up to go to the "grocery store". She began a Facebook account, and spent a lot of hours on the computer. Our sex life dwindled, but was still great when we had sex. She always was a (good) beast in bed. Both of us are somewhat "over-sexed", so when we went from having sex 4-5 times per week to only once or twice per week, it seemed strange. She claimed the change was because she was working "overtime", and was "under a lot of pressure at work".


----------



## 101Abn

Carrie 420. Do the silver linings on the clouds over this situation seem a little brighter? I hope so.it seems to me you two belong with each other.I know I'm only reading words on a screen,but the seem to be heart felt words.the one thing that got me was when you quit your job.that showed me something.it seems to me that not to many quit their job to work on their marriage.I really mean this,I wish you and Walt the best of luck in R ,but the way I read about how you two are together,I know you will succeed and I also know you will make it up to me and my wife's time together again the very best of luck.
Walt you have a SPECIAL lady there


----------



## 101Abn

Kallie congrats on passing the polygrapth test.especially under all that stress test.and for helping him by doing the you two serving each other dinner.shoppin for women's clothes was helpful.so if she is as good looking as u say she is I would think a simple burlap bag would look good on here.(maybe a little rough on the skin).I am hoping for the best and that everything will come out OK.I again will wish you the very,very
Very,very best. 
Of luck to the both of you's
Ke


----------



## davecarter

WalterWhite420 said:


> My questions for Carrie's polygraph:
> 
> Q1: Have you ever had an affair other than with the OM?
> A: No.
> 
> Q2: Did you ever complain about our marriage to the OM?
> A: No.
> 
> Q3: Did you have sex more than once with the OM?
> A: No.
> 
> Q4: Did you French kiss the OM?
> A: No.
> 
> Q5: Did you give the OM oral sex?
> A: No.
> 
> Q6: Did the OM give you oral sex?
> A: No.
> 
> Q7: Did you initiate any contact with the OM after I discovered the affair?
> A: No.
> 
> Q8: Did you ever voluntarily meet with the OM after I discovered the affair?
> A: No.


Hmmmm...not that much happened afterall, then.

Glad we got it all sorted out in the end.


----------



## WalterWhite420

See_Listen_Love said:


> Well,
> 
> I am sure a secret agent would fear TAM more than the machine. Things like this below remain open, the unexplained well known red flag of the dwindling sex life.


Carrie somewhat disagrees with my description of that time. 

As far as the dwindling sex, she makes a good point that it was due to our disagreement in Tantric vs. regular. I wanted sex with her, and she wanted it with me, but we were out of sync with one another for the first time in our specific desires. We argued about sex for the first time ever. And as a result we had less sex.

Carrie claims that working overtime was legitimate, and that her getting "dolled up" to go to the grocery store was my imagination. And with her passing the polygraph today, I believe her.


----------



## vellocet

davecarter said:


> Hmmmm...not that much happened afterall, then.


Not that much? 



> I entered our bedroom and saw a horrible sight; a strange man on top of my wife, with her legs WRAPPED AROUND HIM, and him going to town like a Singer sewing machine...and her moaning in pleasure.


But I get your point regarding the polygraph results.


----------



## Rubicon

I had no doubt she would pass. She has no guilt whatsoever and that is pretty much required to get the machine to react in a measurable way. The red flags are all still there regardless of her denials.

Carrie, you asked me earlier how I intended to help. well, to be honest, I would like to help Walter but I don't think I can, you have him smothered and convinced you are not lying, he thinks the time and money wasted on the poly were conclusive, I think nothing could be farther from the truth. Reiterate your claims of a ONS all you want but it obviously was not. Those with a background in these things know this well.

All we are seeing from both of you now is rug sweeping. Every time a serious question is asked all either of you are doing is evading them by claiming it was already discussed between you or you'll get to that later.... If you seriously wanted help, you would not continue to withhold information.

I was actually intrigued by the discussion on evolutionary/genetic causes for behaviour and your claim to be interested in such. For that reason I wanted to show you this link:
sam harris free will - Bing Videos

If you take the time to watch it and comprehend what he is alluding to you might understand why I seem to be so dead set against your claims of remorse. Like the alligator or the serial killer described in the examples he gives, I think you are what you are and it is somewhat beyond your control. I really do think it was your nature that caused you to cheat and it was never a conscience choice on your part. You were no more responsible for cheating than you are for creating white blood cells. you do both but control neither. And also for that reason I see you doing the exact same thing again if the circumstances ever present themselves to you in a way that allows you conclude you will get away with it.

As for trying to bully those who do not go along with your scripted game plan here, give it up. it is a public forum for everyone to contribute to, not just those doing your bidding. there is no requirement to offer you assistance in your goals. I and others that do not agree with you have every right to post on this public thread. 

Chasing off those who still question your explanations just makes us all the more convinced you are hiding something still.


----------



## Rubicon

P.S. Carrie, Yes, I drive a Jeep Rubicon.


----------



## WalterWhite420

Carrie and I were so exhausted after the polygraph yesterday. It was bearing much more on our minds than we had realized. Carrie rarely sleeps more than 7 hours at night, but she slept hard for 10 straight hours last night. We both woke up today feeling relieved. 

We decided to just “take today off”. No heavy discussions. Just relaxing, enjoying being together, and being thankful for yesterday. It was a big milestone for us.

I could see tears in Carrie’s eyes several times today. She hugged me over and over and told me how thankful she is for another chance, and how glad she is that I can believe her now. I’ve decided to eliminate further polygraphs.

Carrie is sitting beside me here as I’m typing, and she wants me to add this, humbly: We’re going to make it.


----------



## Carrie420

Rubicon said:


> I had no doubt she would pass. She has no guilt whatsoever and that is pretty much required to get the machine to react in a measurable way. The red flags are all still there regardless of her denials.
> 
> Carrie, you asked me earlier how I intended to help. well, to be honest, I would like to help Walter but I don't think I can, you have him smothered and convinced you are not lying, he thinks the time and money wasted on the poly were conclusive, I think nothing could be farther from the truth. Reiterate your claims of a ONS all you want but it obviously was not. Those with a background in these things know this well.
> 
> All we are seeing from both of you now is rug sweeping. Every time a serious question is asked all either of you are doing is evading them by claiming it was already discussed between you or you'll get to that later.... If you seriously wanted help, you would not continue to withhold information.
> 
> I was actually intrigued by the discussion on evolutionary/genetic causes for behaviour and your claim to be interested in such. For that reason I wanted to show you this link:
> sam harris free will - Bing Videos
> 
> If you take the time to watch it and comprehend what he is alluding to you might understand why I seem to be so dead set against your claims of remorse. Like the alligator or the serial killer described in the examples he gives, I think you are what you are and it is somewhat beyond your control. I really do think it was your nature that caused you to cheat and it was never a conscience choice on your part. You were no more responsible for cheating than you are for creating white blood cells. you do both but control neither. And also for that reason I see you doing the exact same thing again if the circumstances ever present themselves to you in a way that allows you conclude you will get away with it.
> 
> As for trying to bully those who do not go along with your scripted game plan here, give it up. it is a public forum for everyone to contribute to, not just those doing your bidding. there is no requirement to offer you assistance in your goals. I and others that do not agree with you have every right to post on this public thread.
> 
> Chasing off those who still question your explanations just makes us all the more convinced you are hiding something still.


Rubicon,

I told the 100% truth yesterday.

Your post above was welcome. You offered something other than just calling "Bull****".

It's clear that you will never believe me, but I appreciate your willingness to help Jack.

This is Jack's thread. He has a right to call for all sarcastic posters to refrain from posting sarcastic remarks. Challenging remarks are welcome. Helpful remarks are welcome. Encouraging remarks are welcome. Sarcastic remarks are not welcome. I think Jack has a right to request that in his own thread.

Again, I know you will never believe me. And I've actually seen some of the video that you recommended. It was very interesting. 

I've answered EVERY question Jack has asked me. In every detail Jack wanted. And he wanted every detail. He's dealing with that. And so am I. It's just that neither of us are comfortable writing those very embarrassing details on a public forum. At least not yet. Maybe later.

BTW, no bull****, Jack and I both love the Jeep Wrangler Rubicon. We're mud riders (ATVs).


----------



## Carrie420

Rubicon said:


> I had no doubt she would pass. She has no guilt whatsoever and that is pretty much required to get the machine to react in a measurable way. The red flags are all still there regardless of her denials.
> 
> Carrie, you asked me earlier how I intended to help. well, to be honest, I would like to help Walter but I don't think I can, you have him smothered and convinced you are not lying, he thinks the time and money wasted on the poly were conclusive, I think nothing could be farther from the truth. Reiterate your claims of a ONS all you want but it obviously was not. Those with a background in these things know this well.
> 
> All we are seeing from both of you now is rug sweeping. Every time a serious question is asked all either of you are doing is evading them by claiming it was already discussed between you or you'll get to that later.... If you seriously wanted help, you would not continue to withhold information.
> 
> I was actually intrigued by the discussion on evolutionary/genetic causes for behaviour and your claim to be interested in such. For that reason I wanted to show you this link:
> sam harris free will - Bing Videos
> 
> If you take the time to watch it and comprehend what he is alluding to you might understand why I seem to be so dead set against your claims of remorse. Like the alligator or the serial killer described in the examples he gives, I think you are what you are and it is somewhat beyond your control. I really do think it was your nature that caused you to cheat and it was never a conscience choice on your part. You were no more responsible for cheating than you are for creating white blood cells. you do both but control neither. And also for that reason I see you doing the exact same thing again if the circumstances ever present themselves to you in a way that allows you conclude you will get away with it.
> 
> As for trying to bully those who do not go along with your scripted game plan here, give it up. it is a public forum for everyone to contribute to, not just those doing your bidding. there is no requirement to offer you assistance in your goals. I and others that do not agree with you have every right to post on this public thread.
> 
> Chasing off those who still question your explanations just makes us all the more convinced you are hiding something still.


And, respectfully, Rubicon,

I'm neither an alligator or serial killer. I'm a person who made a really bad choice. And I know it.

I don't need Jack's money, so why am I so determined to reconcile? Because I want Jack. And only Jack. 

I ****ed up big time. I know that. But Jack has given me another chance and I'm not going to let him down.


----------



## WalterWhite420

GusPolinski said:


> Very happy to read the latest updates. I've been pulling for you guys and wish you all the best.


Thank you Gus. Your real name wouldn't be Gustavo Fring would it? You know, the drug kingpin in Breaking Bad? 

But seriously, thank you. I appreciate your support, and so does Carrie.


----------



## WalterWhite420

Rubicon said:


> I had no doubt she would pass. She has no guilt whatsoever and that is pretty much required to get the machine to react in a measurable way. The red flags are all still there regardless of her denials.
> 
> Carrie, you asked me earlier how I intended to help. well, to be honest, I would like to help Walter but I don't think I can, you have him smothered and convinced you are not lying, he thinks the time and money wasted on the poly were conclusive, I think nothing could be farther from the truth. Reiterate your claims of a ONS all you want but it obviously was not. Those with a background in these things know this well.
> 
> All we are seeing from both of you now is rug sweeping. Every time a serious question is asked all either of you are doing is evading them by claiming it was already discussed between you or you'll get to that later.... If you seriously wanted help, you would not continue to withhold information.
> 
> I was actually intrigued by the discussion on evolutionary/genetic causes for behaviour and your claim to be interested in such. For that reason I wanted to show you this link:
> sam harris free will - Bing Videos
> 
> If you take the time to watch it and comprehend what he is alluding to you might understand why I seem to be so dead set against your claims of remorse. Like the alligator or the serial killer described in the examples he gives, I think you are what you are and it is somewhat beyond your control. I really do think it was your nature that caused you to cheat and it was never a conscience choice on your part. You were no more responsible for cheating than you are for creating white blood cells. you do both but control neither. And also for that reason I see you doing the exact same thing again if the circumstances ever present themselves to you in a way that allows you conclude you will get away with it.
> 
> As for trying to bully those who do not go along with your scripted game plan here, give it up. it is a public forum for everyone to contribute to, not just those doing your bidding. there is no requirement to offer you assistance in your goals. I and others that do not agree with you have every right to post on this public thread.
> 
> Chasing off those who still question your explanations just makes us all the more convinced you are hiding something still.


Rubicon,

Thank you for challenging Carrie. We're here for that sort of thing. I figured if Carrie can participate and survive here (a VERY tough forum for wayward spouses), then it would do her (and us) good.

Thank you. But please don't judge me too quick for giving Carrie another chance. She's just the one I want. No other woman I've ever met even compares to her. She's the woman I want to be cuddled up with in bed when I'm 75 years old. She just is, and I'm not sorry I feel that way.

May your way be as pleasant. And I mean that.


----------



## just got it 55

Carrie420 said:


> And, respectfully, Rubicon,
> 
> I'm neither an alligator or serial killer. I'm a person who made a really bad choice. And I know it.
> 
> I don't need Jack's money, so why am I so determined to reconcile? Because I want Jack. And only Jack.
> 
> I ****ed up big time. I know that. But Jack has given me another chance and I'm not going to let him down.


Anyone that doesn’t support Jacks decision to give you a second chance simply put should gracefully bow out .Posters that do not agree and have stated their opposition has made their point. Fair enough .From here on I respectfully submit we at this point should raise appropriate points and questions to help Jack and Carrie to meet the challenges of reconciliation.

55


----------



## WalterWhite420

just got it 55 said:


> Anyone that doesn’t support Jacks decision to give you a second chance simply put should gracefully bow out .Posters that do not agree and have stated their opposition has made their point. Fair enough .From here on I respectfully submit we at this point should raise appropriate points and questions to help Jack and Carrie to meet the challenges of reconciliation.
> 
> 55


Thank you 55,

Carrie and I are just chilling tonight...


----------



## just got it 55

WalterWhite420 said:


> Thank you 55,
> 
> Carrie and I are just chilling tonight...


I am in New England Doin a little chilling myself

Keep that honey of yours warm my Brother

55


----------



## Csquare

Triggers. I am not a BS or WS, but I do understand triggers b/c my father triggered with me over my mother's infidelity. Since she only gave him one child - me, and I was not the son he wanted (important in Chinese families). The son she bore for him to raise came from OM. (My brother does not bear the slightest resemblance to my dad). My father forced my mother to cut my hair short like a boy, subjecting me to ridicule in grade school.

So I do understand triggers. Is it possible for you, Jack, to embrace your triggers? Embrace your worse nightmare. Own it. Absorb it and let it be part of you. The image of your wife with OM...become one with it. The pleasure, the horror, the elicit thrill, the agony. All of it. 

Because you will never be able to escape from those memories. It is impossible to run away from that. You've already found that alcohol and mj are useless to deadening the pain. What choice do you have but to hold on to that reality tight and don't let go? Embrace it so it loses power over you. Allow yourself to dwell in it. Take whatever time you need to feel deeply whatever it is you need to feel. Fear, anger, hate, terror, maybe eventually, boredom.

Also, healing takes time. My daughter healed from rheumatoid arthritis using no pharmaceuticals, just a Weston A. Price diet, but it took 2-1/2 years for her joint pain to subside. Lots of ups and downs with the healing process. Be patient with yourself. Be patient with Carrie. Don't try to feel you can rush the healing process. That only adds to frustration and sense of despair.

Carrie is an uber confident woman. Almost over the top. But I can see her attraction for you. She cheated because she *can* cheat (as my teenagers would say). But of all the couples in my acquaintance in which the wives cheated, they all ditched the BS for the OM. The fact that she wants to be R is not something to sneeze at. Doesn't happen all the time and should offer a chance to both of you to have a better marriage. Wish you both the best.


----------



## just got it 55

Csquare said:


> Triggers. I am not a BS or WS, but I do understand triggers b/c my father triggered with me over my mother's infidelity. Since she only gave him one child - me, and I was not the son he wanted (important in Chinese families). The son she bore for him to raise came from OM. (My brother does not bear the slightest resemblance to my dad). My father forced my mother to cut my hair short like a boy, subjecting me to ridicule in grade school.
> 
> So I do understand triggers. Is it possible for you, Jack, to embrace your triggers? Embrace your worse nightmare. Own it. Absorb it and let it be part of you. The image of your wife with OM...become one with it. The pleasure, the horror, the elicit thrill, the agony. All of it.
> 
> Because you will never be able to escape from those memories. It is impossible to run away from that. You've already found that alcohol and mj are useless to deadening the pain. What choice do you have but to hold on to that reality tight and don't let go? Embrace it so it loses power over you. Allow yourself to dwell in it. Take whatever time you need to feel deeply whatever it is you need to feel. Fear, anger, hate, terror, maybe eventually, boredom.
> 
> Also, healing takes time. My daughter healed from rheumatoid arthritis using no pharmaceuticals, just a Weston A. Price diet, but it took 2-1/2 years for her joint pain to subside. Lots of ups and downs with the healing process. Be patient with yourself. Be patient with Carrie. Don't try to feel you can rush the healing process. That only adds to frustration and sense of despair.
> 
> Carrie is an uber confident woman. Almost over the top. But I can see her attraction for you. She cheated because she *can* cheat (as my teenagers would say). But of all the couples in my acquaintance in which the wives cheated, they all ditched the BS for the OM. The fact that she wants to be R is not something to sneeze at. Doesn't happen all the time and should offer a chance to both of you to have a better marriage. Wish you both the best.


Thats what i'm talking about Csquare

Very eloquently put.

Not bad for a 2nd post

55


----------



## WalterWhite420

just got it 55 said:


> Anyone that doesn’t support Jacks decision to give you a second chance simply put should gracefully bow out .Posters that do not agree and have stated their opposition has made their point. Fair enough .From here on I respectfully submit we at this point should raise appropriate points and questions to help Jack and Carrie to meet the challenges of reconciliation.
> 
> 55





Csquare said:


> Triggers. I am not a BS or WS, but I do understand triggers b/c my father triggered with me over my mother's infidelity. Since she only gave him one child - me, and I was not the son he wanted (important in Chinese families). The son she bore for him to raise came from OM. (My brother does not bear the slightest resemblance to my dad). My father forced my mother to cut my hair short like a boy, subjecting me to ridicule in grade school.
> 
> So I do understand triggers. Is it possible for you, Jack, to embrace your triggers? Embrace your worse nightmare. Own it. Absorb it and let it be part of you. The image of your wife with OM...become one with it. The pleasure, the horror, the elicit thrill, the agony. All of it.
> 
> Because you will never be able to escape from those memories. It is impossible to run away from that. You've already found that alcohol and mj are useless to deadening the pain. What choice do you have but to hold on to that reality tight and don't let go? Embrace it so it loses power over you. Allow yourself to dwell in it. Take whatever time you need to feel deeply whatever it is you need to feel. Fear, anger, hate, terror, maybe eventually, boredom.
> 
> Also, healing takes time. My daughter healed from rheumatoid arthritis using no pharmaceuticals, just a Weston A. Price diet, but it took 2-1/2 years for her joint pain to subside. Lots of ups and downs with the healing process. Be patient with yourself. Be patient with Carrie. Don't try to feel you can rush the healing process. That only adds to frustration and sense of despair.
> 
> Carrie is an uber confident woman. Almost over the top. But I can see her attraction for you. She cheated because she *can* cheat (as my teenagers would say). But of all the couples in my acquaintance in which the wives cheated, they all ditched the BS for the OM. The fact that she wants to be R is not something to sneeze at. Doesn't happen all the time and should offer a chance to both of you to have a better marriage. Wish you both the best.


Thank you so much. Carrie and I appreciate it.


----------



## Thinkitthrough

You can never underestimate the capacity of people to do careless, heartless, self centered, cruel things to those they love. It is also true that you cannot put a limit on the ability of the human heart to absorb the punishment, take the damage, heal and forgive, then find the means to love again. It is possible for the one responsible for having done awful things to another to realize the immensity of the loss and pain they have inflicted and change forever and work to gain forgiveness from the one they have hurt. Despite the hurt, the guilt the loss and the pain, two people can find their way back to the love they lost and to rebuild a new love and often a better love than they had if they want to. You, Walter, Carrie, seem to have the qualities of character and love to do what many will see as impossible. You are taking two hearts damaged almost beyond repair, taking the hurt, pain and guilt together and turning it in to something good.
Walter, Carrie, please do this thing. Best wish good luck and know that there a many who support you.


----------



## staystrong

Walter and Carrie,

Have you considered moving this thread to the Reconciliation forum? Or starting a new one there which references this original thread via a link? Or running both at the same time?

You will have a different group of people in that area, ones will be able to offer you more experienced support concerning R. It seems right now you are reaching the usefulness limit of the CWI forum. It's mostly well-wishers and non-believers at this point, with very little detailed support. The poly has been passed to your satisfaction, Walt, and you are not going through with a second one.


----------



## GusPolinski

WalterWhite420 said:


> Thank you Gus. Your real name wouldn't be Gustavo Fring would it? You know, the drug kingpin in Breaking Bad?
> 
> But seriously, thank you. I appreciate your support, and so does Carrie.


Ha, no. Actually, I hadn't even thought of that. Great series though! I actually drew inspiration from John Candy's character in "Home Alone"...

Home Alone - Gus Polinski (John Candy) - YouTube


----------



## GusPolinski

staystrong said:


> Walter and Carrie,
> 
> Have you considered moving this thread to the Reconciliation forum? Or starting a new one there which references this original thread via a link? Or running both at the same time?
> 
> You will have a different group of people in that area, ones will be able to offer you more experienced support concerning R. It seems right now you are reaching the usefulness limit of the CWI forum. It's mostly well-wishers and non-believers at this point, with very little detailed support. The poly has been passed to your satisfaction, Walt, and you are not going through with a second one.


I was actually thinking this very same thought earlier today.


----------



## FormerSelf

Csquare said:


> So I do understand triggers. Is it possible for you, Jack, to embrace your triggers? Embrace your worse nightmare. Own it. Absorb it and let it be part of you. The image of your wife with OM...become one with it. The pleasure, the horror, the elicit thrill, the agony. All of it.
> Embrace it so it loses power over you. Allow yourself to dwell in it. Take whatever time you need to feel deeply whatever it is you need to feel. Fear, anger, hate, terror, maybe eventually, boredom.


That's exactly what I did when I was in the crux of my own crisis...my wife's infidelity. I committed myself to not run away from the pain...even though I was tempted to numb out...I just breathed deeply in the tough moments and just felt the feelings...and looked at them for what they were. Sure my hands shook, my heart raced, and I found myself holding my head a lot, but I got through. And when I felt like some things I couldn't cope with, I just imagined them going into a little ball...all my stresses and worries...and then sending them up, away from me. :smthumbup: Now look at me...I'm normal...twitch.twitch.twitch-twitch


----------



## See_Listen_Love

just got it 55 said:


> Anyone that doesn’t support Jacks decision to give you a second chance simply put should gracefully bow out .Posters that do not agree and have stated their opposition has made their point. Fair enough .From here on I respectfully submit we at this point should raise appropriate points and questions to help Jack and Carrie to meet the challenges of reconciliation.
> 
> 55


I don't like to spoil the party, but a word of caution:

This is going very quick, and that may be wrong. It is not black and white, for and against.

There is a grey area of things that have to be clarified and processed. This may take a long time. It will be hard.


----------



## memyselfandi

Vent on..we're here to listen. 

In the meantime..hope you're hanging in there..what a tough thing to see..and it sucks. Anway..we're here to listen..at least I am..


----------



## memyselfandi

I feel his pain as I've been there...

Ex hubby did that numerous times...not only did he cheat..but he had women in our bed. 

To make matters worse..I had husbands call me after finding out their wives were cheating..only to find out it was MY hubby they were cheating with..and in our bed.

It was like they took some kinda pride over it or something...


----------



## memyselfandi

What the hell is wrong with women..married or not..that can have sex with a man in he and his wife's bed??!

Of course he denies it..but I had changed the white sheets to green just that morning. Not to catch him at anything but to simply change the sheets.

Unfortunately for him and fortunately for me...as he denied his infidelity,.I pulled back the "quickly made up covers" which were not at ALL like I'd make them and pointed out the "pecker tracks"...

He told me he'd taken a nap and "jacked off to some magazine.."

Sure...that's why they're over on MY side too!!

Never slept on THOSE sheets again...or him either!!


----------



## dogman

See_Listen_Love said:


> I don't like to spoil the party, but a word of caution:
> 
> This is going very quick, and that may be wrong. It is not black and white, for and against.
> 
> There is a grey area of things that have to be clarified and processed. This may take a long time. It will be hard.


This!!!

The speed that this is moving is disconcerting.

At least the image they are putting on here is speedy. I get the feeling anyone will only know a certain amount about Carrie. She will only reveal what she wants.

I think Walter s outgunned.

I have never seen an R move so fast from not speaking to "she's awesome and no one compares" just saying its ....odd.


----------



## davecarter

staystrong said:


> Walter and Carrie,
> 
> *Have you considered moving this thread to the Reconciliation forum?* Or starting a new one there which references this original thread via a link? Or running both at the same time?
> 
> You will have a different group of people in that area, ones will be able to offer you more experienced support concerning R. *It seems right now you are reaching the usefulness limit of the CWI forum.* It's mostly well-wishers and non-believers at this point, with very little detailed support. The poly has been passed to your satisfaction, Walt, and you are not going through with a second one.


----------



## WalterWhite420

dogman said:


> This!!!
> 
> The speed that this is moving is disconcerting.
> 
> At least the image they are putting on here is speedy. I get the feeling anyone will only know a certain amount about Carrie. She will only reveal what she wants.
> 
> I think Walter s outgunned.
> 
> I have never seen an R move so fast from not speaking to "she's awesome and no one compares" just saying its ....odd.


There's a long way to go yet. We reached one of many upcoming milestones yesterday. Our MC has warned us of the ups and downs that we will encounter in the future. But we found cause for relief in the fact that we now both have a baseline of truth to work from. We didn't have that before.

Actually, we've had several down times since we reconciled a few weeks ago. The things we've discussed in MC have been difficult. And some of our discussions at home have been difficult as well.


----------



## WalterWhite420

staystrong said:


> Walter and Carrie,
> 
> Have you considered moving this thread to the Reconciliation forum? Or starting a new one there which references this original thread via a link? Or running both at the same time?
> 
> You will have a different group of people in that area, ones will be able to offer you more experienced support concerning R. It seems right now you are reaching the usefulness limit of the CWI forum. It's mostly well-wishers and non-believers at this point, with very little detailed support. The poly has been passed to your satisfaction, Walt, and you are not going through with a second one.


Yes I've considered that. I'll look into it.


----------



## WalterWhite420

See_Listen_Love said:


> I don't like to spoil the party, but a word of caution:
> 
> This is going very quick, and that may be wrong. It is not black and white, for and against.
> 
> There is a grey area of things that have to be clarified and processed. This may take a long time. It will be hard.


Yes, I think we have a long way to go.


----------



## Carrie420

As Jack said in a recent post, the whole polygraph thing was a rough experience for me. I was confident that my answers would be honest. But it was still rough.

I had some anxiety in the days leading up to the test. But the hardest moment was when we arrived at the testing facility. We were a few minutes early so we sat in the truck talking for a while. But all that was going through my mind was that this may be my last day with Jack forever. If the machine or operator makes a mistake.

I was so nervous when I went in. They put those probes on you, and you feel like a criminal. I answered the questions, but I was so nervous. It was really hard on me. I was elated when I passed. I cried on and off the rest of the day from relief and thankfulness that Jack now believed me.

Jack was compassionate and said no more polygraphs. Thank goodness.


----------



## dogman

WalterWhite420 said:


> There's a long way to go yet. We reached one of many upcoming milestones yesterday. Our MC has warned us of the ups and downs that we will encounter in the future. But we found cause for relief in the fact that we now both have a baseline of truth to work from. We didn't have that before.
> 
> Actually, we've had several down times since we reconciled a few weeks ago. The things we've discussed in MC have been difficult. And some of our discussions at home have been difficult as well.


Let me preface...I think you're both doing great, and this is just an observation...

I know you have explained that you've had ups and downs but what I mean is that in this thread I haven't felt that. In many threads where the WS is on with he BS, we can actually feel he devastation he BS feels. He will often express that he is lost and may never feel for her the way he did before. We can feel him mourn the loss of the marriage he had. 

You both seem to hide that from us and just relay it in a narrators point of view. 

Great for you both, honestly! I just have a hard time relating because i don't think I could be where you are, if it were me in Walters position...no matter how attracted to my wife I am.


----------



## WalterWhite420

dogman said:


> Let me preface...I think you're both doing great, and this is just an observation...
> 
> I know you have explained that you've had ups and downs but what I mean is that in this thread I haven't felt that. In many threads where the WS is on with he BS, we can actually feel he devastation he BS feels. He will often express that he is lost and may never feel for her the way he did before. We can feel him mourn the loss of the marriage he had.
> 
> You both seem to hide that from us and just relay it in a narrators point of view.
> 
> Great for you both, honestly! I just have a hard time relating because i don't think I could be where you are, if it were me in Walters position...no matter how attracted to my wife I am.


In my case, as was confirmed yesterday by a polygraph (which I believe in), I was grossly wrong about the extent of the affair. I thought it was prolonged; it was short. One physical encounter. That was, to some extent, a relief for me.

Couple that with the facts that Carrie doesn't need my money, could have most any man she wanted, and quit her lucrative job to be home with me and work on our marriage. I would have to say she's showing more remorse than most waywards.

So maybe these thoughts give some insight into our rapid (initial) progress. I don't know. 

Or maybe she just has me wrapped around her little finger. 

I guess that's possible.


----------



## Carrie420

Jack is asleep now. We had a good day of relaxing.

I'm confident that Jack and I will reconcile just fine. So I've been thinking ahead a bit. It's just my personality.

I was thinking, and I’ve pitched an idea to Jack, and he seems interested. I’d like to get opinions here.

A few months from now:

Since I killed our old marriage, I’d like to bury it. And start a brand new marriage with Jack. Specifically, I’d like for us to officially divorce, donate our old wedding rings to charity, burn all memorbelia (including pictures) from our wedding, and get married again. Not just a “renewing”, but an official brand new marriage. In front of all our family and friends. New vows, rings, pictures, and honeymoon. A new marriage better than the one before.

Am I being too romantic, or is this a good idea?


----------



## 101Abn

That sounds like an excellent idea.good luck


----------



## raven3321

Carrie,

I think re-newing your vows is a great idea. Divorcing, re-marrying, new ceremony, photos, honeymoon, all that is a bit much. Carrie, your old marriage was not a sham. It was blissful and great in your own words. You are a different person now than the young bride in the photo; but that doesn't mean those times weren't real. Don't let one mistake (dicision, whatever) make or break your entire time together. I could understand in cases where there was infidelity at the beginning of the marriage or throughout the marriage. That would be one thing. However, burning all your pictures and pretending like your first wedding and subsequent marriage never happened is a bit extreme. That being said, whatever you and Jack decide is fine. I'm just happy to see you too doing well. 

But if you do decide to go the new wedding route, you must promise to post pictures for us to see. That would be so great.
Still praying for you guys.


----------



## Carrie420

raven3321 said:


> Carrie,
> 
> I think re-newing your vows is a great idea. Divorcing, re-marrying, new ceremony, photos, honeymoon, all that is a bit much. Carrie, your old marriage was not a sham. It was blissful and great in your own words. You are a different person now than the young bride in the photo; but that doesn't mean those times weren't real. Don't let one mistake (dicision, whatever) make or break your entire time together. I could understand in cases where there was infidelity at the beginning of the marriage or throughout the marriage. That would be one thing. However, burning all your pictures and pretending like your first wedding and subsequent marriage never happened is a bit extreme. That being said, whatever you and Jack decide is fine. I'm just happy to see you too doing well.
> 
> But if you do decide to go the new wedding route, you must promise to post pictures for us to see. That would be so great.
> Still praying for you guys.


Thanks Raven. I may be a bit ditsy from relief over the poly results. 

I just love Jack so much. More than I can say.


----------



## Sandfly

Carrie420 said:


> As Jack said in a recent post, the whole polygraph thing was a rough experience for me. I was confident that my answers would be honest. But it was still rough.
> 
> I had some anxiety in the days leading up to the test. But the hardest moment was when we arrived at the testing facility. We were a few minutes early so we sat in the truck talking for a while. But all that was going through my mind was that this may be my last day with Jack forever. If the machine or operator makes a mistake.
> 
> I was so nervous when I went in. They put those probes on you, and you feel like a criminal. I answered the questions, but I was so nervous. It was really hard on me. I was elated when I passed. I cried on and off the rest of the day from relief and thankfulness that Jack now believed me.
> 
> Jack was compassionate and said no more polygraphs. Thank goodness.


Jack, when you took the poly test, did they use wires and pads and richter-scale graph things, and all that stuff like on TV? Or is it much more sophisticated nowadays? I've never seen a polygraph, they're not accepted in Europe, so there's no like, industry catering to it, well, outside of private companies (maybe).


----------



## GusPolinski

raven3321 said:


> Carrie,
> 
> I think re-newing your vows is a great idea. Divorcing, re-marrying, new ceremony, photos, honeymoon, all that is a bit much. Carrie, your old marriage was not a sham. It was blissful and great in your own words. You are a different person now than the young bride in the photo; but that doesn't mean those times weren't real. Don't let one mistake (dicision, whatever) make or break your entire time together. I could understand in cases where there was infidelity at the beginning of the marriage or throughout the marriage. That would be one thing. However, burning all your pictures and pretending like your first wedding and subsequent marriage never happened is a bit extreme. That being said, whatever you and Jack decide is fine. I'm just happy to see you too doing well.
> 
> But if you do decide to go the new wedding route, you must promise to post pictures for us to see. That would be so great.
> Still praying for you guys.


I tend to agree w/ Raven.


----------



## dogman

Carrie420 said:


> Jack is asleep now. We had a good day of relaxing.
> 
> I'm confident that Jack and I will reconcile just fine. So I've been thinking ahead a bit. It's just my personality.
> 
> I was thinking, and I’ve pitched an idea to Jack, and he seems interested. I’d like to get opinions here.
> 
> A few months from now:
> 
> Since I killed our old marriage, I’d like to bury it. And start a brand new marriage with Jack. Specifically, I’d like for us to officially divorce, donate our old wedding rings to charity, burn all memorbelia (including pictures) from our wedding, and get married again. Not just a “renewing”, but an official brand new marriage. In front of all our family and friends. New vows, rings, pictures, and honeymoon. A new marriage better than the one before.
> 
> Am I being too romantic, or is this a good idea?


My wife destroyed a bunch of our wedding stuff....she regretted it.

We renewed our vows in Jerusalem in the garden of gethsemane. With the eastern gate in the background. It was awesome. Many of our friends were with us and our pastor who we adore remarried us. New pictures. 

Renew your vows, but don't destroy stuff, you'll regret it down the road. Just do something symbolic marking a new beginning.


----------



## raven3321

Carrie,

Just a suggestion. Whether you re-new your vows or completely remarry, may I suggest a venue? Sandals Royal Bahamian in Nassau Bahamas. I married and honeymooned there. They have 8 different spots on the property for the ceremony. It's an adults only all-inclusive with 8 restaurants, 2 of them gourmet and plenty of activities if you want. It's ridiculously romantic and this is coming from a guy. You could plan it say a year in advance so others can save and plan their vacation around it. They certainly don't have to stay there as there are hotels all along Bay Drive. If they have kids, Beaches is a sister resort right down the street. Look it up online.

Just a thought.


----------



## cpacan

I don't know about these renewals. 
If the promises didn't mean anything to you the first time, why would it be any different the second time, so why renew them?
Oth, if they DID mean something and still stands, why renew them?
I think it's a very individual thing, how we look at these rituals.
Personally, I don't take them seriously anymore.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Carrie420 said:


> Jack is asleep now. We had a good day of relaxing.
> 
> I'm confident that Jack and I will reconcile just fine. So I've been thinking ahead a bit. It's just my personality.
> 
> I was thinking, and I’ve pitched an idea to Jack, and he seems interested. I’d like to get opinions here.
> 
> A few months from now:
> 
> Since I killed our old marriage, I’d like to bury it. And start a brand new marriage with Jack. Specifically, I’d like for us to officially divorce, donate our old wedding rings to charity, burn all memorbelia (including pictures) from our wedding, and get married again. Not just a “renewing”, but an official brand new marriage. In front of all our family and friends. New vows, rings, pictures, and honeymoon. A new marriage better than the one before.
> 
> Am I being too romantic, or is this a good idea?


This is a ******* idea.

I moderated myself, basically I think it is not a good thing you come up with something like this. 
Very, very disturbing to read this.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

I might add there is something really strange going on here.

Normally the TAM buch is very black and white about WS, and boatloads of sharp criticism are posted, and often in harsh tone.

But here.....the lack of critical thinking is staggering crazy.

At least give some of the understanding, loving reactions you all display here also to some of the other poor bastard WS's in other threads. Why not be nuanced in your reactions? I can't describe my amazement over this.


----------



## staystrong

she was probably just giddy based on having a good post-poly weekend 

maybe just a passing fancy.. but maybe not


----------



## davecarter

Maybe it's the drugs? :scratchhead:


----------



## Malcolm38

I've just read the entire thread this afternoon for the first time. 

Good luck to you, but I'd be careful at the speed of which this is all happening.


----------



## larry.gray

Malcolm38 said:


> I've just read the entire thread this afternoon for the first time.
> 
> Good luck to you, but I'd be careful at the speed of which this is all happening.


I'm thinking the same thing. Why?



Carrie420 said:


> I'm confident that Jack and I will reconcile just fine.


No WS should think that inside 2 years. Thinking that now means you two are rug-sweeping.


----------



## Carrie420

dogman said:


> My wife destroyed a bunch of our wedding stuff....she regretted it.
> 
> We renewed our vows in Jerusalem in the garden of gethsemane. With the eastern gate in the background. It was awesome. Many of our friends were with us and our pastor who we adore remarried us. New pictures.
> 
> Renew your vows, but don't destroy stuff, you'll regret it down the road. Just do something symbolic marking a new beginning.


Cool dogman, in Jerusalem? Way cool! Good luck to the both of you.


----------



## Carrie420

See_Listen_Love said:


> This is a ******* idea.
> 
> I moderated myself, basically I think it is not a good thing you come up with something like this.
> Very, very disturbing to read this.


Thanks for your input. I threw my idea out there for critique, and you critiqued it! Thanks.

It was an initial idea that will be modified to some extent, over time.


----------



## MattMatt

cpacan said:


> I don't know about these renewals.
> If the promises didn't mean anything to you the first time, why would it be any different the second time, so why renew them?
> Oth, if they DID mean something and still stands, why renew them?
> I think it's a very individual thing, how we look at these rituals.
> Personally, I don't take them seriously anymore.


My wife and I did this. It worked for us, helped us reconnect.


----------



## Carrie420

raven3321 said:


> Carrie,
> 
> Just a suggestion. Whether you re-new your vows or completely remarry, may I suggest a venue? Sandals Royal Bahamian in Nassau Bahamas. I married and honeymooned there. They have 8 different spots on the property for the ceremony. It's an adults only all-inclusive with 8 restaurants, 2 of them gourmet and plenty of activities if you want. It's ridiculously romantic and this is coming from a guy. You could plan it say a year in advance so others can save and plan their vacation around it. They certainly don't have to stay there as there are hotels all along Bay Drive. If they have kids, Beaches is a sister resort right down the street. Look it up online.
> 
> Just a thought.


I'm checking that out now. Thank you. We've never been to the Bahamas.


----------



## just got it 55

larry.gray said:


> I'm thinking the same thing. Why?
> 
> 
> 
> No WS should think that inside 2 years. Thinking that now means you two are rug-sweeping.


Originally Posted by just got it 55 View Post 
Anyone that doesn’t support Jacks decision to give you a second chance simply put should gracefully bow out .Posters that do not agree and have stated their opposition has made their point. Fair enough .From here on* I respectfully submit we at this point should raise appropriate points and questions to help Jack and Carrie to meet the challenges of reconciliation*.

55

I stand by my previous post But Larry I agree

This is an appropriate point to be made


----------



## Carrie420

See_Listen_Love said:


> I might add there is something really strange going on here.
> 
> Normally the TAM buch is very black and white about WS, and boatloads of sharp criticism are posted, and often in harsh tone.
> 
> But here.....the lack of critical thinking is staggering crazy.
> 
> At least give some of the understanding, loving reactions you all display here also to some of the other poor bastard WS's in other threads. Why not be nuanced in your reactions? I can't describe my amazement over this.


SLL,

I don't know what to say except I'm thankful for the people here who've tried to get involved and help us. But our story, and me in particular to some extent, have been challenged. I've been called names and have been unfavorably compared to a pile of ****.

If other WS have been treated tougher than that, then I sympathize.

We're new to this. We're unique individuals and a unique couple; I don't even try to pretend otherwise. But we're human, deeply in love, and are mainly just concentrating on the 6 inches in front of our face. And the next 6 inches look very good. Beyond that, I'm willing to bet our future is at least as bright. I'm forever an optimist.


----------



## Malcolm38

just got it 55 said:


> Originally Posted by just got it 55 View Post
> Anyone that doesn’t support Jacks decision to give you a second chance simply put should gracefully bow out .Posters that do not agree and have stated their opposition has made their point. Fair enough .From here on* I respectfully submit we at this point should raise appropriate points and questions to help Jack and Carrie to meet the challenges of reconciliation*.
> 
> 55
> 
> I stand by my previous post But Larry I agree
> 
> This is an appropriate point to be made



I'll post how I see fit, thanks. 

Anyway, I don't disagree with the couple's intent to get back together. I only suggest not moving too quickly, and making sure all issues are worked out. It would appear that the husband still loves his wife. Just don't be too quick to gloss things over. It is what I did in my marital troubles, and it was a mistake. 

But here is to hoping it works for you two.


----------



## Carrie420

Malcolm38 said:


> I've just read the entire thread this afternoon for the first time.
> 
> Good luck to you, but I'd be careful at the speed of which this is all happening.


Thank you. But to be honest, neither Jack or I have any control over the rate at which this is happening. And to be honest with you Malcolm, I don't want to control it. I'm afraid I might **** it up.


----------



## Carrie420

Malcolm38 said:


> I'll post how I see fit, thanks.
> 
> Anyway, I don't disagree with the couple's intent to get back together. I only suggest not moving too quickly, and making sure all issues are worked out. It would appear that the husband still loves his wife. Just don't be too quick to gloss things over. It is what I did in my marital troubles, and it was a mistake.
> 
> But here is to hoping it works for you two.


Thank you Malcolm.


----------



## WalterWhite420

Sandfly said:


> Jack, when you took the poly test, did they use wires and pads and richter-scale graph things, and all that stuff like on TV? Or is it much more sophisticated nowadays? I've never seen a polygraph, they're not accepted in Europe, so there's no like, industry catering to it, well, outside of private companies (maybe).


There was an apparatus attached to her fingers, a "blood pressure" cuff for her arm, and a wrap around her chest (lungs), I guess to determine changes in breathing.

That's all I can remember.

She passed with no problems.


----------



## happyman64

WalterWhite420 said:


> There was an apparatus attached to her fingers, a "blood pressure" cuff for her arm, and a wrap around her chest (lungs), I guess to determine changes in breathing.
> 
> That's all I can remember.
> 
> She passed with no problems.


I know the test was a milestone for you Jack. But I get the feeling it has become one for Carrie as well.

Just take it one day at a time for a little while.

Do not put any pressure on the R and let it continue to happen.

There is plenty of time to renew your vows and build a better marriage or new marriage.

Glad you guys are moving forward.

HM


----------



## WalterWhite420

happyman64 said:


> I know the test was a milestone for you Jack. But I get the feeling it has become one for Carrie as well.
> 
> Just take it one day at a time for a little while.
> 
> Do not put any pressure on the R and let it continue to happen.
> 
> There is plenty of time to renew your vows and build a better marriage or new marriage.
> 
> Glad you guys are moving forward.
> 
> HM


Thanks HM. I will, as always, regard your advice with the highest esteem.

I will take things slowly and surely. We have a lot of time to work on this.

We're both so encouraged with the poly. We're on a "high" right now. We're going to enjoy it a bit, and then get back to work with the continuation of necessary difficult discussions starting tomorrow, in MC.

Carrie is such an optimist. And she encourages me so.

Thank you.


----------



## Oldfaithful

I have been reading this and I don't know what to say. I don't mean to sound like I don't believe you but I have never met two scientists who are both extremely good looking who do tantric sex and are working on growing medicinal marijuana who can afford for one of them to quit their job to work on their marriage. 
It's just all so outside of the average persons experience that I can't relate at all. It all just seems extremely unlikely, but just because something is unlikely doesn't mean it isn't real. 
I think that's why I read but can't think of anything to say. Other than good luck to you both!


----------



## Carrie420

Oldfaithful said:


> I have been reading this and I don't know what to say. I don't mean to sound like I don't believe you but I have never met two scientists who are both extremely good looking who do tantric sex and are working on growing medicinal marijuana who can afford for one of them to quit their job to work on their marriage.
> It's just all so outside of the average persons experience that I can't relate at all. It all just seems extremely unlikely, but just because something is unlikely doesn't mean it isn't real.
> I think that's why I read but can't think of anything to say. Other than good luck to you both!


Thank you Oldfaithful...

Jack is the good-looking one; not me...

We are real. Very real. And we love Tantric, and are both scientists, etc, etc.


----------



## NovellaBiers

Carrie420 said:


> Thank you Oldfaithful...
> 
> Jack is the good-looking one; not me...
> 
> We are real. Very real. And we love Tantric, and are both scientists, etc, etc.


You do look like Mila Kunis.


----------



## Carrie420

Actually, my avatar is a picture of Mila Kunis...

Jack prefers us to not post actual pics of ourselves...if you knew some of the pervert PMs I've received so far...so my avatars are Jack's favorite pics that look like me...and he thinks I look like Mila Kunis...he picked out the pic in my avatar...


----------



## Sandfly

Carrie420 said:


> Actually, my avatar is a picture of Mila Kunis...
> 
> Jack prefers us to not post actual pics of ourselves...so my avatars are Jack's favorite pics that look like me...and he thinks I look like Mila Kunis...he picked out the pic in my avatar...


In that case, I better change mine to Colin Farrell.
Only thing is, I hate that actor !


----------



## Carrie420

Sandfly said:


> In that case, I better change mine to Colin Farrell.
> Only thing is, I hate that actor !


So do I!!!


----------



## NovellaBiers

Carrie420 said:


> Actually, my avatar is a picture of Mila Kunis...
> 
> Jack prefers us to not post actual pics of ourselves...if you knew some of the pervert PMs I've received so far...so my avatars are Jack's favorite pics that look like me...and he thinks I look like Mila Kunis...he picked out the pic in my avatar...


Yes I know it's MK. Pervert PMs hmm, no wonder with that avatar.  You know MK did look good going down on Portman in Black Swan... Maybe change to Chloë Grace Moretz.


----------



## Carrie420

NovellaBiers said:


> Yes I know it's MK. Pervert PMs hmm, no wonder with that avatar.  You know MK did look good going down on Portman in Black Swan... Maybe change to Chloë Grace Moretz.


Maybe you're right!!!


----------



## cool12

perverted pms? that is so wrong!


----------



## Carrie420

cool12 said:


> perverted pms? that is so wrong!


Yeah Cool, I agree. Wholeheartedly.


----------



## larry.gray

Forward the PM to any of the moderators and the offending member will be banned. This is a website for supporting marriage, not making hookups.


----------



## SoulStorm

Congratulations on the poly Carrie and Jack!

I was rooting for you both


----------



## Carrie420

larry.gray said:


> Forward the PM to any of the moderators and the offending member will be banned. This is a website for supporting marriage, not making hookups.


Thank you...but I have already deleted them...


----------



## Carrie420

SoulStorm said:


> Congratulations on the poly Carrie and Jack!
> 
> I was rooting for you both


Thank you SoulStorm...we were elated!


----------



## SoulStorm

Carrie420 said:


> Thank you SoulStorm...we were elated!


When you are ready to share how the ONS came about, I would be interested in knowing. You express and show such great love for Jack, it is a bit of a quandary as to how you overrode that love and let the event unfold


----------



## Oldfaithful

SoulStorm said:


> When you are ready to share how the ONS came about, I would be interested in knowing. You express and show such great love for Jack, it is a bit of a quandary as to how you overrode that love and let the event unfold


I'm really confused too. It's kind if scary actually. I guess you want to know how it could happen so it doesn't happen to you maybe.


----------



## Carrie420

SoulStorm said:


> When you are ready to share how the ONS came about, I would be interested in knowing. You express and show such great love for Jack, it is a bit of a quandary as to how you overrode that love and let the event unfold


When and if disclosure of such personal and embarrassing details seems to be in the best interest of helping Jack heal, I will.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Carrie420 said:


> SLL,
> 
> I don't know what to say except I'm thankful for the people here who've tried to get involved and help us. But our story, and me in particular to some extent, have been challenged. I've been called names and have been unfavorably compared to a pile of ****.
> 
> If other WS have been treated tougher than that, then I sympathize.
> 
> We're new to this. We're unique individuals and a unique couple; I don't even try to pretend otherwise. But we're human, deeply in love, and are mainly just concentrating on the 6 inches in front of our face. And the next 6 inches look very good. Beyond that, I'm willing to bet our future is at least as bright. I'm forever an optimist.


I wish the two of you, separate or together all the best in the world. Like I said I do not feel superior in any way, just more lucky to be prevented to have these problems you have.

Other WS's get spitroasted much worse than you have because in the phase before and during discovery by the BS many posters help analyse the situation and help to bring forward questions and thoughts that uncover the affair. We know of DD2 and sometimes DD3. When the WS then sometimes is posting the WS most of the time gets a really heavy treatment, often too heavy. But most survive, and some get a good reconciliation out of that.

In your case the analytical phase before you came here AND the 'spitroasting' is missing. 

So while wishing all the best and hoping for a happy reconciliation I still have doubt about how much of your affair is uncovered.


----------



## davecarter

vellocet said:


> Not that much?


Q3: Did you have sex more than once with the OM?
A: No. 

Q4: Did you French kiss the OM?
A: No. :scratchhead:

Q5: Did you give the OM oral sex?
A: No. :wtf:

Q6: Did the OM give you oral sex?
A: No.


----------



## Carrie420

> SoulStorm said:
> 
> 
> 
> When you are ready to share how the ONS came about, I would be interested in knowing. You express and show such great love for Jack, it is a bit of a quandary as to how you overrode that love and let the event unfold
> 
> 
> 
> When and if disclosure of such personal and embarrassing details seems to be in the best interest of helping Jack heal, I will.
Click to expand...

And let me add this please. I've told all these details to Jack. Everything. But I'm not sure it would do him any good to re-read them here. In fact, right now, it would probably be counter productive.


----------



## brokeneric

I am really happy for both of you. You and Walter have something not many on TAM would ever have. I can only envy you.


----------



## Hoosier

Hello to both of you. Only started reading this thread yesterday, and because we currently have emergency only traffic in Northern Indiana, I was able to read the whole thing as I have lots of time on my hands.

If, and I say If, your thread is real (I have my serious doubts) I want to wish you the best of luck. I am going to continue on here as tho it is real, as we can learn from fake situations as well as real ones.

I understand Walts feelings exactly. I was the victim of my xwifes affair after 30 years of marriage, even tho it represented a complete lack of respect for me, I to loved my wife and wanted nothing more than to be with her. so much so that I "forgave' her within 24 hours! Luckily for me, she was "in love" with her AP and wanted nothing to do with our marriage. Now 2 and a half years later I finally am able to go whole days at a time without thinking of her, and when I do it is not so much that I miss her, but cant believe I put up with the s**t as long as I did. (It helped that last Sept. they moved from 5 blocks from me to 30 miles away and I don't see them) So I get that Walt loves her so much. But what I really see is a type A personality (Carrie) who does not like to lose. I wonder if her aggressiveness in getting back together is more a reflection of her not liking being rejected then an attempt to save the marriage. I respect and revere "Happy Man" as he was a great resource for me when I went thru my own hell. But I would disagree with his suggestion to go on the trip, because at the time Walt was extremely vulnerable, and a two year old would of realized that the sex would be fantastic, and you would return from the trip as a couple. For Walt, he was never able to clear his head enough to really decide what he wants. For Carrie, she cant even say why it happened, not really. The possibility that this could happen again is very high. (pun intended) Walt started out very strong, but collapsed like a bridge made of paper when Carrie turned on the charm. It took her a while, she needed to be persistant,(sp) and clever, and she obviously is both those things. If the two of you stay together, want to try and make it work, that is your decisions alone, kudos to you. But I have my doubts. just sayin


----------



## mahike

Carrie420 said:


> Jack is asleep now. We had a good day of relaxing.
> 
> I'm confident that Jack and I will reconcile just fine. So I've been thinking ahead a bit. It's just my personality.
> 
> I was thinking, and I’ve pitched an idea to Jack, and he seems interested. I’d like to get opinions here.
> 
> A few months from now:
> 
> Since I killed our old marriage, I’d like to bury it. And start a brand new marriage with Jack. Specifically, I’d like for us to officially divorce, donate our old wedding rings to charity, burn all memorbelia (including pictures) from our wedding, and get married again. Not just a “renewing”, but an official brand new marriage. In front of all our family and friends. New vows, rings, pictures, and honeymoon. A new marriage better than the one before.
> 
> Am I being too romantic, or is this a good idea?


We took a similar path with new wedding rings for both of us. Just a couple of moments together and we placed the rings on our fingers and kissed. We still have the old rings but they are just put away for now. 

It was a way to close the door on the past and taking a step into our new life together.


----------



## vellocet

Carrie420 said:


> And, respectfully, Rubicon,
> 
> I'm neither an alligator or serial killer. I'm a person who made a really bad choice. And I know it.
> 
> I don't need Jack's money, so why am I so determined to reconcile? Because I want Jack. And only Jack.
> 
> I ****ed up big time. I know that. But Jack has given me another chance and I'm not going to let him down.


You need to go out and get Jack a bottle of Dimple Pinch. Then he can enjoy what Walter White did.


----------



## vellocet

davecarter said:


> Q3: Did you have sex more than once with the OM?
> A: No.
> 
> Q4: Did you French kiss the OM?
> A: No. :scratchhead:
> 
> Q5: Did you give the OM oral sex?
> A: No. :wtf:
> 
> Q6: Did the OM give you oral sex?
> A: No.


Q7: Did he walk in on them, her legs wrapped around another man, him going to town on her like a "singer sewing machine" and her moaning in pleasure in his own bed?
A: Yes 


Not to rehash it, but just because she passed the polygraph doesn't mean she hasn't done all "that much". Jack's description of it indicates she did quite a bit. 

If what she did wasn't that much, then he wouldn't be here and wouldn't have beat the shyte out of the OM. 

But I'll digress because they are past that point. I think they both need to get out of town and stay somewhere nice, maybe a big city, and hit the town for good food, drink, and quiet time in the hotel.


----------



## happyman64

Hoosier said:


> I respect and revere "Happy Man" as he was a great resource for me when I went thru my own hell. But I would disagree with his suggestion to go on the trip, because at the time Walt was extremely vulnerable, and a two year old would of realized that the sex would be fantastic, and you would return from the trip as a couple. For Walt, he was never able to clear his head enough to really decide what he wants. For Carrie, she cant even say why it happened, not really. The possibility that this could happen again is very high. (pun intended) Walt started out very strong, but collapsed like a bridge made of paper when Carrie turned on the charm.


Hoosier

You have my utmost respect and I think you are spot on regarding Walter & Carrie.

But since you called me out exclusively and I have such high regard for your opinions I will respond.

I wanted Walter to go because he was vulnerable. He was fence sitting. I felt he should bite the bullet, spend a few days with his wife and see if he was truly madly in love with her still.

It is easy to say how crazy you are about your wayward spouse but the real test is being physically together. That is the true sh!t test in my book.

He did not fold when Carrie turned on the charm however. 

He blew her off for months. In a way he was punishing her and she was taking it.

Did she deserve it? Hell yeah.

But at the same time he was punishing himself. He was hurting himself and his behavior was repeating itself.

I think his IC was seeing the same thing.

So in my mind it was time to sh!t and get off the pot.

Glad to hear from you Hoosier.

Walter (jack) & Carrie should read your thread. They could learn alot from it......

HM


----------



## SoulStorm

Carrie420 said:


> And let me add this please. I've told all these details to Jack. Everything. But I'm not sure it would do him any good to re-read them here. In fact, right now, it would probably be counter productive.


Understood.


----------



## happyman64

Carrie420 said:


> And let me add this please. I've told all these details to Jack. Everything. But I'm not sure it would do him any good to re-read them here. In fact, right now, it would probably be counter productive.


And let me agree with you.

Leave the juicy details to the gossip rags.

Jack does not need to see you, his wife, re-enacting that day or those days leading up to.

It will not help him at all.

It will not help you as well.

All you will get are more of those stupid nasty PM's.


----------



## Carrie420

Hoosier said:


> Hello to both of you. Only started reading this thread yesterday, and because we currently have emergency only traffic in Northern Indiana, I was able to read the whole thing as I have lots of time on my hands.
> 
> If, and I say If, your thread is real (I have my serious doubts) I want to wish you the best of luck. I am going to continue on here as tho it is real, as we can learn from fake situations as well as real ones.
> 
> I understand Walts feelings exactly. I was the victim of my xwifes affair after 30 years of marriage, even tho it represented a complete lack of respect for me, I to loved my wife and wanted nothing more than to be with her. so much so that I "forgave' her within 24 hours! Luckily for me, she was "in love" with her AP and wanted nothing to do with our marriage. Now 2 and a half years later I finally am able to go whole days at a time without thinking of her, and when I do it is not so much that I miss her, but cant believe I put up with the s**t as long as I did. (It helped that last Sept. they moved from 5 blocks from me to 30 miles away and I don't see them) So I get that Walt loves her so much. But what I really see is a type A personality (Carrie) who does not like to lose. I wonder if her aggressiveness in getting back together is more a reflection of her not liking being rejected then an attempt to save the marriage. I respect and revere "Happy Man" as he was a great resource for me when I went thru my own hell. But I would disagree with his suggestion to go on the trip, because at the time Walt was extremely vulnerable, and a two year old would of realized that the sex would be fantastic, and you would return from the trip as a couple. For Walt, he was never able to clear his head enough to really decide what he wants. For Carrie, she cant even say why it happened, not really. The possibility that this could happen again is very high. (pun intended) Walt started out very strong, but collapsed like a bridge made of paper when Carrie turned on the charm. It took her a while, she needed to be persistant,(sp) and clever, and she obviously is both those things. If the two of you stay together, want to try and make it work, that is your decisions alone, kudos to you. But I have my doubts. just sayin


Thanks Hoosier. And BTW, we're real. We think therefore we are.


----------



## Carrie420

vellocet said:


> You need to go out and get Jack a bottle of Dimple Pinch. Then he can enjoy what Walter White did.


Dimple Pinch; Walter White's last drink.


----------



## Carrie420

One of my medical school roommates passed away today from a heart attack. She was a fine Gynecologist, but was only 45 years old. She was overweight, never exercised, and ate red meat like it was going out of style.

Take care of your heart people.


----------



## Carrie420

happyman64 said:


> Hoosier
> 
> You have my utmost respect and I think you are spot on regarding Walter & Carrie.
> 
> But since you called me out exclusively and I have such high regard for your opinions I will respond.
> 
> I wanted Walter to go because he was vulnerable. He was fence sitting. I felt he should bite the bullet, spend a few days with his wife and see if he was truly madly in love with her still.
> 
> It is easy to say how crazy you are about your wayward spouse but the real test is being physically together. That is the true sh!t test in my book.
> 
> He did not fold when Carrie turned on the charm however.
> 
> He blew her off for months. In a way he was punishing her and she was taking it.
> 
> Did she deserve it? Hell yeah.
> 
> But at the same time he was punishing himself. He was hurting himself and his behavior was repeating itself.
> 
> I think his IC was seeing the same thing.
> 
> So in my mind it was time to sh!t and get off the pot.
> 
> Glad to hear from you Hoosier.
> 
> Walter (jack) & Carrie should read your thread. They could learn alot from it......
> 
> HM


Where is your thread, Hoosier? I'd like to read it.


----------



## manticore

Hi Walter, Haven't read yout thread in a while, I see that you decided to try R, I have to admit that it came as a surprise to me because you didn't seem like the kind of man that could overcome betrayal in his marriage (an as I told you before that is not a bad thing is just like some people are), that said, just remember reconcilation is a choice not an obligation, just because you accepted to give it a try, it does not mean that if you realize that is still is not for you, you have to stick there forever because you already accepted, there are good men as rookie and oldsmitten, whose wives were outstanding examples of remorse and did all and even more of the heavy lifting necessary in their part and yet they were not able to overcome infidelity (is the problem with infidelity, it can change the feelings of the BH towards their WS in ways they never saw comming).

In the other hand if you are already commited I hope that you give 100% your effort to make R sucessfully, so whatever you reconcile or you separate in the end you will have no regrets about it (I know that it sounds like a am sending mixed signals but if you read it 2 times it will make sense to you).

Carrie, it may sound like I am against you but that is not the case, I am a firm believer of the ideology that one have to do what is more healthy and not what is more desired when it comes to relationships (mentally, physically and emotionally speaking).

Carrie, I also like you to understand that betrayal for a man is not just about the pain that the betrayal cause, but also about the hit that the manhood that our gender suffers in this situation, I will quote a BH from another forum to clarify this:

*"For the man, the biggest pains are the sex, and the loyalty aspect. The most ultimate disrespect that one man can do to another man: it's not kicking his ass, it's not making him look small or embarrassing him in front of others, it's bedding his women. It's very primal, but I've talked to dozens of men here, and they all feel the same about their ladies cheating. It's the physical aspect and the loyalty that tears them up most. Choosing any other man over your man in any way is pretty devastating to him. 

Most men wouldn't even want you getting a massage from a professional masseuse if it's a man. Because to them, on some primal level, that man is giving his woman physical pleasure and he's doing better than he can."* 

so you will have to work really hard to reach Walter to a subconscious level for he to realizes that for you there is not any other man that you will choose over him.

I also think that OM's death probably played a role in Walter subconscious or conscious decission to accept R.

wish you the best of the lucks to both of you in this journey.


----------



## manticore

changing subject, Walter, how are you doing with carrie's family, I remember that you were cut off and banned from her family for the way you performed the exposure, are both, your family and carries's family supporting you attempt of reconcilation, family support is really important in these cases.


----------



## WalterWhite420

manticore said:


> Hi Walter, Haven't read yout thread in a while, I see that you decided to try R, I have to admit that it came as a surprise to me because you didn't seem like the kind of man that could overcome betrayal in his marriage (an as I told you before that is not a bad thing is just like some people are), that said, just remember reconcilation is a choice not an obligation, just because you accepted to give it a try, it does not mean that if you realize that is still is not for you, you have to stick there forever because you already accepted, there are good men as rookie and oldsmitten, whose wives were outstanding examples of remorse and did all and even more of the heavy lifting necessary in their part and yet they were not able to overcome infidelity (is the problem with infidelity, it can change the feelings of the BH towards their WS in ways they never saw comming).
> 
> In the other hand if you are already commited I hope that you give 100% your effort to make R sucessfully, so whatever you reconcile or you separate in the end you will have no regrets about it (I know that it sounds like a am sending mixed signals but if you read it 2 times it will make sense to you).
> 
> Carrie, it may sound like I am against you but that is not the case, I am a firm believer of the ideology that one have to do what is more healthy and not what is more desired when it comes to relationships (mentally, physically and emotionally speaking).
> 
> Carrie, I also like you to understand that betrayal for a man is not just about the pain that the betrayal cause, but also about the hit that the manhood that our gender suffers in this situation, I will quote a BH from another forum to clarify this:
> 
> *"For the man, the biggest pains are the sex, and the loyalty aspect. The most ultimate disrespect that one man can do to another man: it's not kicking his ass, it's not making him look small or embarrassing him in front of others, it's bedding his women. It's very primal, but I've talked to dozens of men here, and they all feel the same about their ladies cheating. It's the physical aspect and the loyalty that tears them up most. Choosing any other man over your man in any way is pretty devastating to him.
> 
> Most men wouldn't even want you getting a massage from a professional masseuse if it's a man. Because to them, on some primal level, that man is giving his woman physical pleasure and he's doing better than he can."*
> 
> so you will have to work really hard to reach Walter to a subconscious level for he to realizes that for you there is not any other man that you will choose over him.
> 
> I also think that OM's death probably played a role in Walter subconscious or conscious decission to accept R.
> 
> wish you the best of the lucks to both of you in this journey.


Thank you Manticore.

And I agree about massages. When Carrie gets one, she always makes sure to get a woman masseuse. 

And thank you for the detail in you post.

Carrie is at the super market right now. I'm sure she'll also reply when she gets home.


----------



## WalterWhite420

manticore said:


> changing subject, Walter, how are you doing with carrie's family, I remember that you were cut off and banned from her family for the way you performed the exposure, are both, your family and carries's family supporting you attempt of reconcilation, family support is really important in these cases.


Yes, we're mending our relationships. I sent an apology email, and have been meeting informally with family members on both sides to apologize in person.

Carrie's family is wonderful. They're so thrilled we're back together. I think we're on the right road to becoming a close extended family again.


----------



## bandit.45

Carrie420 said:


> One of my medical school roommates passed away today from a heart attack. She was a fine Gynecologist, but was only 45 years old. She was overweight, never exercised, and ate red meat like it was going out of style.
> 
> Take care of your heart people.


Worry about Walter's heart, not ours.


----------



## Squeakr

WalterWhite420 said:


> Yes, we're mending our relationships. I sent an apology email, and have been meeting informally with family members on both sides to apologize in person.
> 
> Carrie's family is wonderful. They're so thrilled we're back together. I think we're on the right road to becoming a close extended family again.


Are they returning the "gift" (as that is what the apology is, unless it is earned)? I ask this as, they feel you were wrong in your email and the way things were done, but their shunning and abandonment of you was just as grievous and deserving of a return apology given the situation and nature of the offense (and their undeniable defense of their loved one)? 

Did any of them reach out to you first to right their wrongs (as that can say a lot about what is to happen in the future and how they will forever view you going forward)?


----------



## vellocet

Carrie420 said:


> Dimple Pinch; Walter White's last drink.


Does Jack drink str8 scotch or any other whisky?


----------



## sinnister

WalterWhite420 said:


> Yes, we're mending our relationships. I sent an apology email, and have been meeting informally with family members on both sides to apologize in person.
> 
> Carrie's family is wonderful. They're so thrilled we're back together. I think we're on the right road to becoming a close extended family again.


Wait? You're apologizing to them? Oh boy.....

Walter don't fall into the trap of not respecting yourself enough to stand up on principle. If they wronged you by their reaction than they dont deserve an apology.


----------



## vellocet

WalterWhite420 said:


> Yes, we're mending our relationships. I sent an apology email, and have been meeting informally with family members on both sides to apologize in person.


For what?


----------



## WalterWhite420

Squeakr said:


> Are they returning the "gift" (as that is what the apology is, unless it is earned)? I ask this as, they feel you were wrong in your email and the way things were done, but their shunning and abandonment of you was just as grievous and deserving of a return apology given the situation and nature of the offense (and their undeniable defense of their loved one)?
> 
> Did any of them reach out to you first to right their wrongs (as that can say a lot about what is to happen in the future and how they will forever view you going forward)?


Carrie's family is wonderful. Mixed races, mixed cultures, mixed religions, forgiving, and never an argument.

Carrie and I are technically a mixed-race marriage. Her mother is African-American, and her dad is white. Carrie "looks" white as well, but she's technically African-American since her mother is.

Several of her family members did reach out to me over the months we were separated. Especially her parents. They still loved Carrie, and wanted me to somehow find it in my heart to forgive her. Because they love us both so much.


----------



## WalterWhite420

sinnister said:


> Wait? You're apologizing to them? Oh boy.....
> 
> Walter don't fall into the trap of not respecting yourself enough to stand up on principle. If they wronged you by their reaction than they dont deserve an apology.


I apologized for the ill-advised email I sent them all months ago, which was mentioned in some of my very early posts. Basically, I sent a very graphic email that I should not have worded the way I did. I should have explained what I needed to explain, with a lot less color and fewer adjectives. I basically wrote a very accurate and detailed description of what I saw on DDay. Carrie's family didn't deserve to hear those details. I could have written in more generalities and still got my point across.


----------



## WalterWhite420

vellocet said:


> For what?


See the post just above this one for the answer to your question.

Thanks.


----------



## Carrie420

bandit.45 said:


> Worry about Walter's heart, not ours.


Bandit,

I honestly am concerned about Jack's heart, both literally and figuratively. 

Please forgive me for also encouraging people to be heart-healthy after the tragic death of my young friend from a very preventable heart attack.


----------



## Carrie420

vellocet said:


> Does Jack drink str8 scotch or any other whisky?


On no. Jack only drinks Coors Light and Chilean wines. And margaritas when we go out for Mexican food. But he works out at the gym 5 days per week, so he's in good shape and almost never gets drunk.


----------



## Squeakr

WalterWhite420 said:


> Carrie's family is wonderful. Mixed races, mixed cultures, mixed religions, forgiving, and never an argument.
> 
> Carrie and I are technically a mixed-race marriage. Her mother is African-American, and her dad is white. Carrie "looks" white as well, but she's technically African-American since her mother is.
> 
> Several of her family members did reach out to me over the months we were separated. Especially her parents. They still loved Carrie, and wanted me to somehow find it in my heart to forgive her. Because they love us both so much.


It's great that you get/ got along and they are so supportive of her and the two of you (or were fully at one point), but your description of ethnicities and backgrounds doesn't answer the questions pondered. Instead, it dances around the questions painting positive situations and support for her but gives an answer to none of the questions presented inquiring as to whether they were reciprocating the apologies and whether they tried to reach out and give them prior to yours? I was interested as I know that many will never truly accept the BS after the WS has abandoned them and they always ten to find and support the WS. I was wondering if this was different in your case. I am suspecting the answer is "not really" based on the way you answered the question.

Which brings another question to mind. Do you think you will ever feel comfortable again around her family due to this whole mess?


----------



## WalterWhite420

Squeakr said:


> It's great that you get/ got along and they are so supportive of her and the two of you (or were fully at one point), but your description of ethnicities and backgrounds doesn't answer the questions pondered. Instead, it dances around the questions painting positive situations and support for her but gives an answer to none of the questions presented inquiring as to whether they were reciprocating the apologies and whether they tried to reach out and give them prior to yours? I was interested as I know that many will never truly accept the BS after the WS has abandoned them and they always ten to find and support the WS. I was wondering if this was different in your case. I am suspecting the answer is "not really" based on the way you answered the question.
> 
> Which brings another question to mind. Do you think you will ever feel comfortable again around her family due to this whole mess?


Squeakr,

I'm not trying to skirt any questions...

Back later.


----------



## foolme2x

Wow. Quite a saga. 

Most of this will be addressed to WW, mainly because I am a BS, and Carrie reminds me of my husband.

WW, at this point, you are in hysterical bonding mode. That’s not a bad thing; just clouds the vision for a while. Like most BSes, you will likely come out of it, slowly but surely, over the next few months. Once you are out of it, I almost guarantee that you will look back at this thread and think “Was I actually celebrating? As in, publically relieved and almost giddy that a polygraph showed that my wife ONLY slept with another man just that ONE time, even if it was on our own bed?” The safe, secure feeling that came with HB disappears, and reality sets in…and you see that your reconciliation depends on your being able to accept that your wife was willing to hurt you in the worst possible way, and then move past that. Even if she completely and sincerely does all the right things, it’s ultimately on you.

But based on what you two have chosen to share here, Carrie is coming across like she’s on stage. Even though you are the BS, her writing makes it somehow all about her -- how awful and horrible she is, and oh, how could she do this to you? Statements like causing enough hurt “for the whole world” – hyperbole, much? Even though she gives lip service to you being the one who needs our help, it’s pretty much the Carrie Show.

And how she writes here (and how you write about her) – the OVER-emphasis on her looks, her sexiness, her general awesomeness and the awesomeness of your relationship, and so on – is that indicative of what she needs her image to be IRL as well? Because if it is, you appear to have a spouse that is looking externally for things to make her feel good about herself. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think the reason she gave for cheating on you was because you had been busier at work and less attentive than normal for what…several months?

Ups and downs are part of marriage. So because you weren’t making her feel good about herself for actually a relatively short time period, she involves herself in an EA and then a PA with someone who gives her ego a boost? That’s not normal behavior. And I hate to say it, but a lot of us here know the phrase “there’s always more”. You’ve been married for about two decades, right? IIRC, the polygraph questions only asked about this particular OM. Based on how easily Carrie fell into this affair, I would seriously consider whether this is her first time. 

Now when you come out of the HB phase, you may start feeling pretty crappy, and not super-compelled to keep blowing sunshine you-know-where. She is going to have to be able to handle the fact that, while there may still be a lot of things that you do love about her, the bloom is off the rose, so to speak. There are a lot of things that I like about my husband, and our relationship still has more positives than negatives, but I’ll tell you…my view now takes into account what he did to me when the going got rough, and it sucks to have to accept that. 

And guess what? My husband is really handsome, too. Lots of attention from other women. When I look at him, I still think he’s attractive, but now there’s some ugly there, too. How will Carrie cope with your negative feelings about her AFTER the HB phase is over? Those feelings were expected to be there pre-reconciliation, but she might not be as accepting of them post-reconciliation, when everything is supposed to be all fine and dandy now, thankyouverymuch. She’s pretty quick to kiss off anyone here who doubts that your recovery will just chug right along, no problem, and apparently on her pre-determined schedule. 

Have you found Chumplady's website? If you haven’t seen it, you should. Even though her mindset is that true reconciliations are few and far between, she’s funny and blunt and realistic. Highly recommend you spend some time there.


----------



## WalterWhite420

foolme2x said:


> Wow. Quite a saga.
> 
> Most of this will be addressed to WW, mainly because I am a BS, and Carrie reminds me of my husband.
> 
> WW, at this point, you are in hysterical bonding mode. That’s not a bad thing; just clouds the vision for a while. Like most BSes, you will likely come out of it, slowly but surely, over the next few months. Once you are out of it, I almost guarantee that you will look back at this thread and think “Was I actually celebrating? As in, publically relieved and almost giddy that a polygraph showed that my wife ONLY slept with another man just that ONE time, even if it was on our own bed?” The safe, secure feeling that came with HB disappears, and reality sets in…and you see that your reconciliation depends on your being able to accept that your wife was willing to hurt you in the worst possible way, and then move past that. Even if she completely and sincerely does all the right things, it’s ultimately on you.
> 
> But based on what you two have chosen to share here, Carrie is coming across like she’s on stage. Even though you are the BS, her writing makes it somehow all about her -- how awful and horrible she is, and oh, how could she do this to you? Statements like causing enough hurt “for the whole world” – hyperbole, much? Even though she gives lip service to you being the one who needs our help, it’s pretty much the Carrie Show.
> 
> And how she writes here (and how you write about her) – the OVER-emphasis on her looks, her sexiness, her general awesomeness and the awesomeness of your relationship, and so on – is that indicative of what she needs her image to be IRL as well? Because if it is, you appear to have a spouse that is looking externally for things to make her feel good about herself. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think the reason she gave for cheating on you was because you had been busier at work and less attentive than normal for what…several months?
> 
> Ups and downs are part of marriage. So because you weren’t making her feel good about herself for actually a relatively short time period, she involves herself in an EA and then a PA with someone who gives her ego a boost? That’s not normal behavior. And I hate to say it, but a lot of us here know the phrase “there’s always more”. You’ve been married for about two decades, right? IIRC, the polygraph questions only asked about this particular OM. Based on how easily Carrie fell into this affair, I would seriously consider whether this is her first time.
> 
> Now when you come out of the HB phase, you may start feeling pretty crappy, and not super-compelled to keep blowing sunshine you-know-where. She is going to have to be able to handle the fact that, while there may still be a lot of things that you do love about her, the bloom is off the rose, so to speak. There are a lot of things that I like about my husband, and our relationship still has more positives than negatives, but I’ll tell you…my view now takes into account what he did to me when the going got rough, and it sucks to have to accept that.
> 
> And guess what? My husband is really handsome, too. Lots of attention from other women. When I look at him, I still think he’s attractive, but now there’s some ugly there, too. How will Carrie cope with your negative feelings about her AFTER the HB phase is over? Those feelings were expected to be there pre-reconciliation, but she might not be as accepting of them post-reconciliation, when everything is supposed to be all fine and dandy now, thankyouverymuch. She’s pretty quick to kiss off anyone here who doubts that your recovery will just chug right along, no problem, and apparently on her pre-determined schedule.
> 
> Have you found Chumplady's website? If you haven’t seen it, you should. Even though her mindset is that true reconciliations are few and far between, she’s funny and blunt and realistic. Highly recommend you spend some time there.


Thanks for the post. A lot there. Will read closely again and ponder the points you made.

Thank you.


----------



## Carrie420

foolme2x said:


> Wow. Quite a saga.
> 
> Most of this will be addressed to WW, mainly because I am a BS, and Carrie reminds me of my husband.
> 
> WW, at this point, you are in hysterical bonding mode. That’s not a bad thing; just clouds the vision for a while. Like most BSes, you will likely come out of it, slowly but surely, over the next few months. Once you are out of it, I almost guarantee that you will look back at this thread and think “Was I actually celebrating? As in, publically relieved and almost giddy that a polygraph showed that my wife ONLY slept with another man just that ONE time, even if it was on our own bed?” The safe, secure feeling that came with HB disappears, and reality sets in…and you see that your reconciliation depends on your being able to accept that your wife was willing to hurt you in the worst possible way, and then move past that. Even if she completely and sincerely does all the right things, it’s ultimately on you.
> 
> But based on what you two have chosen to share here, Carrie is coming across like she’s on stage. Even though you are the BS, her writing makes it somehow all about her -- how awful and horrible she is, and oh, how could she do this to you? Statements like causing enough hurt “for the whole world” – hyperbole, much? Even though she gives lip service to you being the one who needs our help, it’s pretty much the Carrie Show.
> 
> And how she writes here (and how you write about her) – the OVER-emphasis on her looks, her sexiness, her general awesomeness and the awesomeness of your relationship, and so on – is that indicative of what she needs her image to be IRL as well? Because if it is, you appear to have a spouse that is looking externally for things to make her feel good about herself. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think the reason she gave for cheating on you was because you had been busier at work and less attentive than normal for what…several months?
> 
> Ups and downs are part of marriage. So because you weren’t making her feel good about herself for actually a relatively short time period, she involves herself in an EA and then a PA with someone who gives her ego a boost? That’s not normal behavior. And I hate to say it, but a lot of us here know the phrase “there’s always more”. You’ve been married for about two decades, right? IIRC, the polygraph questions only asked about this particular OM. Based on how easily Carrie fell into this affair, I would seriously consider whether this is her first time.
> 
> Now when you come out of the HB phase, you may start feeling pretty crappy, and not super-compelled to keep blowing sunshine you-know-where. She is going to have to be able to handle the fact that, while there may still be a lot of things that you do love about her, the bloom is off the rose, so to speak. There are a lot of things that I like about my husband, and our relationship still has more positives than negatives, but I’ll tell you…my view now takes into account what he did to me when the going got rough, and it sucks to have to accept that.
> 
> And guess what? My husband is really handsome, too. Lots of attention from other women. When I look at him, I still think he’s attractive, but now there’s some ugly there, too. How will Carrie cope with your negative feelings about her AFTER the HB phase is over? Those feelings were expected to be there pre-reconciliation, but she might not be as accepting of them post-reconciliation, when everything is supposed to be all fine and dandy now, thankyouverymuch. She’s pretty quick to kiss off anyone here who doubts that your recovery will just chug right along, no problem, and apparently on her pre-determined schedule.
> 
> Have you found Chumplady's website? If you haven’t seen it, you should. Even though her mindset is that true reconciliations are few and far between, she’s funny and blunt and realistic. Highly recommend you spend some time there.


Our MC has brought up several of the points you made. We're working through them, and it's not easy.

I try to make myself as attractive to Jack as I can. And that's all I care about - what Jack thinks. Isn't that the way husbands and wives should feel about/toward one another?


----------



## vellocet

WalterWhite420 said:


> See the post just above this one for the answer to your question.
> 
> Thanks.


So you apologized for using colorful language to describe what was going on. Ok, I get that.

However, I'm sure the colorful language was an accurate and proper description of what was happening and void of sugar coating.

Its like when my x-mother in law and my x-wife were both talking to me about her daughter's affair, I told her to go of and spread her legs for the OM as long as she isn't home with me. That disgusted the x-MIL and she said, "oh, that's real nice talk".

My reply? "Well that's exactly what she is doing...that's real nice behavior" But then again, I was pretty damn sure at that point I didn't want to reconcile.


----------



## foolme2x

Carrie420 said:


> I try to make myself as attractive to Jack as I can. And that's all I care about - what Jack thinks. Isn't that the way husbands and wives should feel about/toward one another?


Of course you should care what Jack thinks. But I even find it interesting that this is the main point you chose to address out of everything I posted. If what he thinks is truly “all you care about”, that’s not healthy. You should care more about what YOU think of you, outside and inside. The feeling I get from your posts is that you need people to think you are attractive, have it all together, etc. – that you feel better about yourself when you construct that image for the outside world. I could be totally off-base, of course; I interpret your words/actions through the lens of my own troubled marriage. But I saw a lot of red flags. 

I debated writing what I did about the melodramatic language because I figured some of it could be attributed to the HB phase. After all that is when you reconnect, and it can affirm to both BS and WS that there’s still attraction and (hopefully) love. Feeling so connected also fosters some of that bravado, that us-against-the-world feeling. But the more I read, the more it started to feel like too much…trying to sell us on how wonderful everything is (minus that pesky affair, of course). 

The HB phase is going to end. When it does, there may come a time (probably numerous times) when Jack looks at you and has his doubts about reconciliation, even if he doesn’t express them. Loss of respect for your spouse is a hard one to get through. He isn’t going to have the strength to make you feel good about yourself when he feels like he is just keeping his own head above water. And if you are remorseful, his pain will make you feel worse because you are the source of it. What will you do then? 

Last time, feeling neglected for several months made you feel bad about yourself and your relationship (which is totally normal), but to compensate, you went for an ego boost from another man. Actually, that timeframe is another red flag for me. To drop a bomb on your marriage so quickly for what many people would say is a typical bump-in-the-road…IMO that speaks to someone who is very needy. Or, I suppose, you could be keeping the whole truth back. It would be pretty easy to gaslight Jack into thinking he was imagining other weird behavior from you in the months before DD, especially if he was drunk/stoned a lot afterwards. Not saying this is what you did; just that it would be a situation some waywards would take advantage of.

None of this is meant to be insulting; just my opinions/thoughts.


----------



## WalterWhite420

vellocet said:


> So you apologized for using colorful language to describe what was going on. Ok, I get that.
> 
> However, I'm sure the colorful language was an accurate and proper description of what was happening and void of sugar coating.
> 
> Its like when my x-mother in law and my x-wife were both talking to me about her daughter's affair, I told her to go of and spread her legs for the OM as long as she isn't home with me. That disgusted the x-MIL and she said, "oh, that's real nice talk".
> 
> My reply? "Well that's exactly what she is doing...that's real nice behavior" But then again, I was pretty damn sure at that point I didn't want to reconcile.


Yes, it was colorfully accurate. But for their sake, I should have glossed over some of the descriptions I gave. I basically used a sledge hammer to drive a small nail. I way over did it.


----------



## bandit.45

So WW....

Are you getting your proper BJ rations?


----------



## WalterWhite420

It’s been somewhat of a rough week for us. I haven’t felt much like writing about it.

Monday’s MC session was rough. The MC led us through some very difficult discussions, which continued when we got home, and on Tuesday as well. We had an actual argument for the first time since we decided to R. It was unpleasant.

Then Carrie’s med school roommate died.

And I’ve had a lot of triggers, and couldn’t sleep.

And if all that wasn’t enough…

Today we were sitting at home talking, and my cell phone rang. I didn’t recognize the number but answered anyway. And to my HORROR, it was my New Year’s Eve hookup partner (Lisa). I must have turned blue, because Carrie knew something was bad wrong. I didn’t expect to ever hear from Lisa again. I told her I was busy and asked if I could call her back. She said yes and hung up.

I told Carrie who it was, and asked if she would allow me to call Lisa back to explain. She said yes, but she wanted to hear the conversation on speaker phone.

So I called Lisa back on speaker, and she asked if I was free for dinner sometime. I explained that my wife and I are reconciling. She was fine with that and wished us well.

After we hung up, Carrie got very emotional. She’s having a very hard time with this. But she’s blaming herself, not me.


----------



## WalterWhite420

bandit.45 said:


> So WW....
> 
> Are you getting your proper BJ rations?


Yes, among other things. But we've had a rough week, so it's been a little lean around here for the past 3 days.


----------



## bandit.45

WalterWhite420 said:


> Yes, among other things. But we've had a rough week, so it's been a little lean around here for the past 3 days.


Shame...


----------



## treyvion

cool12 said:


> and she is with you now, no?
> whether or not you think she'll deceive you again, a part of you may feel vulnerable for quite some time. it's not so much that you believe she'll never do it again, it's that she ALREADY DID IT. you know now she is capable of it. before, probably not.


It's kinda like a turtle that had it's shell stripped off... It's going to take a while to grow a new one. Everything is sensitive when you've been violated.


----------



## WalterWhite420

bandit.45 said:


> Shame...


Yeah, but it will hopefully pick up again soon...


----------



## Carrie420

WalterWhite420 said:


> It’s been somewhat of a rough week for us. I haven’t felt much like writing about it.
> 
> Monday’s MC session was rough. The MC led us through some very difficult discussions, which continued when we got home, and on Tuesday as well. We had an actual argument for the first time since we decided to R. It was unpleasant.
> 
> Then Carrie’s med school roommate died.
> 
> And I’ve had a lot of triggers, and couldn’t sleep.
> 
> And if all that wasn’t enough…
> 
> Today we were sitting at home talking, and my cell phone rang. I didn’t recognize the number but answered anyway. And to my HORROR, it was my New Year’s Eve hookup partner (Lisa). I must have turned blue, because Carrie knew something was bad wrong. I didn’t expect to ever hear from Lisa again. I told her I was busy and asked if I could call her back. She said yes and hung up.
> 
> I told Carrie who it was, and asked if she would allow me to call Lisa back to explain. She said yes, but she wanted to hear the conversation on speaker phone.
> 
> So I called Lisa back on speaker, and she asked if I was free for dinner sometime. I explained that my wife and I are reconciling. She was fine with that and wished us well.
> 
> After we hung up, Carrie got very emotional. She’s having a very hard time with this. But she’s blaming herself, not me.


It was a shockingly weird feeling to hear another woman call my husband and ask him for a date. It was completely surreal to hear her voice. This woman who was with my husband only 29 nights ago. I wish I hadn’t been around when she called. And I certainly wish I hadn’t heard her voice or name, because that made it all much more real to me. I shouldn’t have asked Jack to put her on speaker phone. To hear her say Jack’s name, saying she’s been “thinking of him”, and asking him for a date. And hearing Jack say her name. Then just before she hung up she wished us “good luck”, but told Jack “you have my number; call me if it doesn’t work out”. That b1tch. It just became all too personal.

I’m not blaming Jack for anything. This is all my fault.

I’m not expecting sympathy. I’m hurting really bad, and I know I deserve it.

OK, now bash me. Or offer me helpful advice. I'm reeling here.


----------



## Variance

Carrie420 said:


> It was a shockingly weird feeling to hear another woman call my husband and ask him for a date. It was completely surreal to hear her voice. This woman who was with my husband only 29 nights ago. I wish I hadn’t been around when she called. And I certainly wish I hadn’t heard her voice or name, because that made it all much more real to me. I shouldn’t have asked Jack to put her on speaker phone. To hear her say Jack’s name, saying she’s been “thinking of him”, and asking him for a date. And hearing Jack say her name. Then just before she hung up she wished us “good luck”, but told Jack “you have my number; call me if it doesn’t work out”. That b1tch. It just became all too personal.
> 
> I’m not blaming Jack for anything. This is all my fault.
> 
> I’m not expecting sympathy. I’m hurting really bad, and I know I deserve it.
> 
> OK, now bash me. Or offer me helpful advice. I'm reeling here.


It's a bit of a "help us help you" situation. There's not much we can say that will make this kind of pain go away. You and Jack have to communicate now more than ever. I think it's safe to say you're going through a bit of what Walt experienced early on after DD. Give it time and try to stay true to the R like you both have so far. 

I also think sometimes, even in healthy relationships, a bad day can be a good thing. A catharsis of sorts for the things that may be going wrong or unresolved, and how to address them. We're adults and sometimes we have to raise our voices.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## rrrbbbttt

No Bashing, just sorry it is another trigger that both you and Jack have to deal with. 

Jack probably would not have had the hookup if your ONS did not happen, so you feel the guilt for that.

Jack also is probably questioning why he did it and why did he let himself do something that hurt you when he never would do that in the past. 

Jack and you have to openly discuss this because no matter what, it was Jack's decision to do this as it was your decision to have a One Time Situation.

You were both selfish and if you both are going to "R" you also have to "R" over Jack's ONS. Otherwise, you will always have this in the back of your mind and Jack also may have emotional baggage from this ONS that periodically surfaces in the future.


----------



## Carrie420

Variance said:


> It's a bit of a "help us help you" situation. There's not much we can say that will make this kind of pain go away. You and Jack have to communicate now more than ever. I think it's safe to say you're going through a bit of what Walt experienced early on after DD. Give it time and try to stay true to the R like you both have so far.
> 
> I also think sometimes, even in healthy relationships, a bad day can be a good thing. A catharsis of sorts for the things that may be going wrong or unresolved, and how to address them. We're adults and sometimes we have to raise our voices.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank You,

Jack and I sure hope the past few bad days will give way to some good ones very soon...


----------



## Carrie420

rrrbbbttt said:


> No Bashing, just sorry it is another trigger that both you and Jack have to deal with.
> 
> Jack probably would not have had the hookup if your ONS did not happen, so you feel the guilt for that.
> 
> Jack also is probably questioning why he did it and why did he let himself do something that hurt you when he never would do that in the past.
> 
> Jack and you have to openly discuss this because no matter what, it was Jack's decision to do this as it was your decision to have a One Time Situation.
> 
> You were both selfish and if you both are going to "R" you also have to "R" over Jack's ONS. Otherwise, you will always have this in the back of your mind and Jack also may have emotional baggage from this ONS that periodically surfaces in the future.


Yes I feel complete guilt for the fact that another woman had my husband less than a month ago...I don't know if I can ever forgive myself for that. But if Jack can forgive me, then maybe I can forgive myself as well.


----------



## happyman64

Now instead of letting that call hurt you or get your emotions rolling how about using those emotions towards some positive thoughts.

You have every right to be upset for a number of reasons.

But in the end you know with whom the problem started.

Now go fix those issues.

And help each other heal.

Isn't that what love is all about???


----------



## Carrie420

happyman64 said:


> Now instead of letting that call hurt you or get your emotions rolling how about using those emotions towards some positive thoughts.
> 
> You have every right to be upset for a number of reasons.
> 
> But in the end you know with whom the problem started.
> 
> Now go fix those issues.
> 
> And help each other heal.
> 
> Isn't that what love is all about???


Oh my goodness HM...(serious tears here)...your well-measured, concisely-presented advice is always just the best...Thank You so much...


----------



## just got it 55

happyman64 said:


> Now instead of letting that call hurt you or get your emotions rolling how about using those emotions towards some positive thoughts.
> 
> You have every right to be upset for a number of reasons.
> 
> But in the end you know with whom the problem started.
> 
> Now go fix those issues.
> 
> And help each other heal.
> 
> Isn't that what love is all about???


Well done HM you always know just the right thing to say

I bet you are a great Dad & Husband

55


----------



## happyman64

Some day I will ask Mrs Happy and let you know what she says 55.......


----------



## happyman64

Hey Carrie

How awesome was it to hear Jack say "Sorry but we are working on our marriage".

That is what I want to hear about.


----------



## davecarter

foolme2x said:


> Wow. Quite a saga.


I guarantee you it's only just _started_...


----------



## Carrie420

happyman64 said:


> Hey Carrie
> 
> How awesome was it to hear Jack say "Sorry but we are working on our marriage".
> 
> That is what I want to hear about.


Yes HM, that was a positive. And I need positives right now. Thank you.


----------



## Carrie420

Last night and this morning have been so hard. Jack is the one who's able to sleep, and I'm the one who's been awake all night. How ironic is that? My eyes are nothing but blood shot tear machines.

And this bottle of wine isn't helping much.

I'm so mad at myself. What have I done to my husband and my marriage? And to myself? I watch Jack hurt and feel so helpless.

And dealing with "Lisa". There, I said her name. Dealing with that has been so much more difficult than I imagined. Knowing that she looks like me, and has a personality similar to mine. Did he enjoy her like he does me? Of course he did. And it's my fault.

If this is so hard on me, then what must my husband be going through? I can only imagine.


----------



## Carrie420

bandit.45 said:


> So WW....
> 
> Are you getting your proper BJ rations?


Thank you Bandit for some comic relief. I need some right now.

I promise I'm taking care of Jack's every need.


----------



## Lostinthought61

Jack may have shared one night with her, but remember, you have 364 days remaining plus the number of years ahead of both you to remind each other how much love exist between each other. While guilt, shame, and pain can not always go away they can be replaced slowly over time with love, and new memories of joy together, don't waste that time, not with yourself, not with each other. Don't let those memories conquer what is ahead of both of you.


----------



## Carrie420

Xenote said:


> Jack may have shared one night with her, but remember, you have 364 days remaining plus the number of years ahead of both you to remind each other how much love exist between each other. While guilt, shame, and pain can not always go away they can be replaced slowly over time with love, and new memories of joy together, don't waste that time, not with yourself, not with each other. Don't let those memories conquer what is ahead of both of you.


Thank you so much. I do believe we're going to make it.


----------



## dogman

Carrie420 said:


> It was a shockingly weird feeling to hear another woman call my husband and ask him for a date. It was completely surreal to hear her voice. This woman who was with my husband only 29 nights ago. I wish I hadn’t been around when she called. And I certainly wish I hadn’t heard her voice or name, because that made it all much more real to me. I shouldn’t have asked Jack to put her on speaker phone. To hear her say Jack’s name, saying she’s been “thinking of him”, and asking him for a date. And hearing Jack say her name. Then just before she hung up she wished us “good luck”, but told Jack “you have my number; call me if it doesn’t work out”. That b1tch. It just became all too personal.
> 
> I’m not blaming Jack for anything. This is all my fault.
> 
> I’m not expecting sympathy. I’m hurting really bad, and I know I deserve it.
> 
> OK, now bash me. Or offer me helpful advice. I'm reeling here.


Carrie, this is the first post of yours that I think makes sense.

Your jealousy is normal. Jealousy is not only there when it's not your fault. It's there when you care and have ownership. Ego has some part to play as well.

Saying to yourself "I deserved this, it's my fault" doesn't handle the issue. Understanding what the ONS was and what it wasn't is what will make it be something you can bear. It's what Jack had to do to be able to R with you after your affair.


----------



## just got it 55

Carrie420 said:


> Last night and this morning have been so hard. Jack is the one who's able to sleep, and I'm the one who's been awake all night. How ironic is that? My eyes are nothing but blood shot tear machines.
> 
> And this bottle of wine isn't helping much.
> 
> I'm so mad at myself. What have I done to my husband and my marriage? And to myself? I watch Jack hurt and feel so helpless.
> 
> And dealing with "Lisa". There, I said her name. Dealing with that has been so much more difficult than I imagined. Knowing that she looks like me, and has a personality similar to mine. Did he enjoy her like he does me? Of course he did. And it's my fault.
> 
> If this is so hard on me, then what must my husband be going through? I can only imagine.


OK Carrie….. This could really be your moment of clarity when you “Get” what Jack felt. That runs deeper than empathy and understanding. It’s feeling the exact same emotion (minus the betrayal) although you may have felt that.

Now having experienced this Jack will really see “your pain” and he can be better convinced with his decision to R.

When you feel true pain and shed true tears and your actions show true remorse, then I would think your are well on your way to a true R.

But the triggers will continue, your guilt will continue when you see Jack react to his triggers.

The guilt will paralyze you if you let it.

Remember as Jack has forgiven you, you must forgive yourself in time.

Guilt and anger are the two most destructive and wasted emotions we as humans experience.

They will rob you of energy and happiness

Don’t allow that to happen

55


----------



## PreRaphaelite

Jack and Carrie: Congratulations on your R. It is nice to hear of some successes now and then amidst all the nasty sh** that usually results from infidelity. I too am in a marriage that survived infidelity. Sometimes I have told myself that it's not worth the grief that I've had to endure and to just walk away. I haven't. I'm glad I didn't.

Just two things:

Having such a desirable wife is wonderful Jack. There is nothing wrong with being fortunate. But the fact that you have a wife that countless other men wish they had can be a real trap, and sometimes you sound like you've fallen into it. I don't have to tell you, (yes, it's a cliche) there a many things that make a woman beautiful. 

Taking satisfaction from the OM's death, even if you had nothing to do with it, is a dangerous business Jack, and letting your anger and pride talk for you can hurt rather than help you R. It's not just bad karma, it's callous and it's mean and the smug satisfaction you may take from it now could come back to bite you later on.


----------



## davecarter

I have some questions:

*Carrie*
1 - Do you feel you could have helped your medic-roomie at all?
2 - What kind of wine were you drinking last night?

*Jack*
1 - Where was Carrie on New Year's Eve 2013?
2 - Did you and Lisa do anything that you think a 'counter-polygraph' would be called for to clear the air?


----------



## Csquare

Ouch. Hurts just to hear both of your stories. It's like you both have big, gaping open sores.

I understand about healing from a chronic disease, watching my DD recover from RA. The process of physically healing for her was *excruciatingly* slow. She kept asking, "Mom, will I ever get better?" I told her, "You will heal one cell division at a time. One layer of tissue at a time. One organ gets healthy at a time. Joint pain will be the last to heal. Just hang in there." 3 years later, she's running around exploring the Bay Area with friends. But those 3 years were the slowest years in my life. I felt every second ticking of those 3 years.

You may find time slowing down as your marriage heals from this wound. Just remember to take slow deep breaths. Hang in there.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Walter,

I follow this thread, but I would like to see the affair before the 'ONS' summarized, I miss a clear picture, do you have that, a timeline, and do you want to share that?


----------



## bandit.45

Carrie420 said:


> Last night and this morning have been so hard. Jack is the one who's able to sleep, and I'm the one who's been awake all night. How ironic is that? My eyes are nothing but blood shot tear machines.
> 
> And this bottle of wine isn't helping much.
> 
> I'm so mad at myself. What have I done to my husband and my marriage? And to myself? I watch Jack hurt and feel so helpless.
> 
> And dealing with "Lisa". There, I said her name. Dealing with that has been so much more difficult than I imagined. Knowing that she looks like me, and has a personality similar to mine. Did he enjoy her like he does me? Of course he did. And it's my fault.
> 
> If this is so hard on me, then what must my husband be going through? I can only imagine.


Well,

Im not trying to make light of this but...

Be glad the two of you didn't run into her at the grocery store.


----------



## Carrie420

dogman said:


> Carrie, this is the first post of yours that I think makes sense.
> 
> Your jealousy is normal. Jealousy is not only there when it's not your fault. It's there when you care and have ownership. Ego has some part to play as well.
> 
> Saying to yourself "I deserved this, it's my fault" doesn't handle the issue. Understanding what the ONS was and what it wasn't is what will make it be something you can bear. It's what Jack had to do to be able to R with you after your affair.


Thank you dog. Your response was helpful and appreciated.


----------



## Carrie420

just got it 55 said:


> OK Carrie….. This could really be your moment of clarity when you “Get” what Jack felt. That runs deeper than empathy and understanding. It’s feeling the exact same emotion (minus the betrayal) although you may have felt that.
> 
> Now having experienced this Jack will really see “your pain” and he can be better convinced with his decision to R.
> 
> When you feel true pain and shed true tears and your actions show true remorse, then I would think your are well on your way to a true R.
> 
> But the triggers will continue, your guilt will continue when you see Jack react to his triggers.
> 
> The guilt will paralyze you if you let it.
> 
> Remember as Jack has forgiven you, you must forgive yourself in time.
> 
> Guilt and anger are the two most destructive and wasted emotions we as humans experience.
> 
> They will rob you of energy and happiness
> 
> Don’t allow that to happen
> 
> 55


Thank you 55. My guilt is overwhelming, especially in light of how great Jack has treated me and how he's helping me get through this, instead of me helping him.


----------



## convert

Carrie420
Can you tell us the story of when Jack saved you life in the past, maybe when you were in college or something?
I remember he mention something about this but he did not go into any detail.


----------



## Carrie420

davecarter said:


> I have some questions:
> 
> *Carrie*
> 1 - Do you feel you could have helped your medic-roomie at all?
> 2 - What kind of wine were you drinking last night?
> 
> *Jack*
> 1 - Where was Carrie on New Year's Eve 2013?
> 2 - Did you and Lisa do anything that you think a 'counter-polygraph' would be called for to clear the air?


Dave,

Regarding my roommate, are you asking if I could have talked her into a healthier lifestyle, or if I could have saved her life after the heart attack? I did the former, as friendly and subtly as I could over the years. But as for saving her after the heart attack - no. Her husband was an MD as well, and he was there when the heart attack occurred, and he never got a pulse back for her.

Last night I was drinking our favorite Chilean Merlot.

Jack is not here right now. And he won't be back till this evening, but I'm sure he'll answer your questions when he can.


----------



## Carrie420

Csquare said:


> Ouch. Hurts just to hear both of your stories. It's like you both have big, gaping open sores.
> 
> I understand about healing from a chronic disease, watching my DD recover from RA. The process of physically healing for her was *excruciatingly* slow. She kept asking, "Mom, will I ever get better?" I told her, "You will heal one cell division at a time. One layer of tissue at a time. One organ gets healthy at a time. Joint pain will be the last to heal. Just hang in there." 3 years later, she's running around exploring the Bay Area with friends. But those 3 years were the slowest years in my life. I felt every second ticking of those 3 years.
> 
> You may find time slowing down as your marriage heals from this wound. Just remember to take slow deep breaths. Hang in there.


Thank you so much.


----------



## Carrie420

See_Listen_Love said:


> Walter,
> 
> I follow this thread, but I would like to see the affair before the 'ONS' summarized, I miss a clear picture, do you have that, a timeline, and do you want to share that?


I promised sandc that I would come up with a timeline, and I haven't done it yet. A lot has happened lately that has gotten in my way. And when I make the timeline, I want to put the effort in to check and double check my facts, approximate dates, etc. I want to get it right.


----------



## Carrie420

bandit.45 said:


> Well,
> 
> Im not trying to make light of this but...
> 
> Be glad the two of you didn't run into her at the grocery store.


Good point.


----------



## Carrie420

I'm off to IC now. I always feel better after I talk to her.

Thank you all.


----------



## Carrie420

just got it 55 said:


> OK Carrie….. This could really be your moment of clarity when you “Get” what Jack felt. That runs deeper than empathy and understanding. It’s feeling the exact same emotion (minus the betrayal) although you may have felt that.
> 
> Now having experienced this Jack will really see “your pain” and he can be better convinced with his decision to R.
> 
> When you feel true pain and shed true tears and your actions show true remorse, then I would think your are well on your way to a true R.
> 
> But the triggers will continue, your guilt will continue when you see Jack react to his triggers.
> 
> The guilt will paralyze you if you let it.
> 
> Remember as Jack has forgiven you, you must forgive yourself in time.
> 
> Guilt and anger are the two most destructive and wasted emotions we as humans experience.
> 
> They will rob you of energy and happiness
> 
> Don’t allow that to happen
> 
> 55


And yes 55, I want to know how Jack feels. I want to get it. I need to feel Jack's pain.


----------



## Squeakr

Carrie420 said:


> It was a shockingly weird feeling to hear another woman call my husband and ask him for a date. It was completely surreal to hear her voice. This woman who was with my husband only 29 nights ago. I wish I hadn’t been around when she called. And I certainly wish I hadn’t heard her voice or name, because that made it all much more real to me. I shouldn’t have asked Jack to put her on speaker phone. To hear her say Jack’s name, saying she’s been “thinking of him”, and asking him for a date. And hearing Jack say her name. Then just before she hung up she wished us “good luck”, but told Jack “you have my number; call me if it doesn’t work out”. That b1tch. It just became all too personal.
> 
> I’m not blaming Jack for anything. This is all my fault.
> 
> I’m not expecting sympathy. I’m hurting really bad, and I know I deserve it.
> 
> OK, now bash me. Or offer me helpful advice. I'm reeling here.


I bet this is killing you and will haunt you for a while. Now take that pain and remember it forever and use it to build from and motivate yourself never to stray again or be tempted by someone else. Just think about it this way, you were lucky in that you only heard her voice, name, and her seduction attempt of Jack, now think about how devastating and painful it would be if you had to put the voice and name to a naked body in the heated throws of sexual intercourse in your house and bed with Jack and you had just witnessed the whole thing. Build, grow and learn from this so it never gets repeated again.


----------



## just got it 55

Carrie420 said:


> Thank you 55. My guilt is overwhelming, especially in light of how great Jack has treated me and how he's helping me get through this, instead of me helping him.


Carrie / Jack wlth the alchemy of time you will both find moments when you are stronger and vice versa.

This will balance itself.

55


----------



## happi_g_more2

Carrie420 said:


> Jack used the word "relentlessly". And I'm sure it seemed so to him. The other guy did hit on me here and there over the past 2 years.
> 
> Please, let me answer your question honestly without being interpreted as obnoxious. If Jack and I had a conversation about every guy who's hit on me or every girl who's hit on him, that would be too much of that kind of talk. For both of us.
> 
> Does everybody here come home every day and tell their spouse about someone who overly flirted with them that day? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just wondering.


I hope this isnt too obnoxious bringing up old remarks on a thread. but Im trying to catch up on this monster (almost 100 pages). Im sure no one needs newbie like me jumping in, but Im just had to comment. 

To answer your question, yes. No, it take that back F-YES!!! You come home and let your husband/wife know about everyone in your life that is making passes at you. Had you told Jack, he may-probably-would have told the guy F off and you might not be in this mess. My wife and I do this religiously. In fact, i just informed her something small her friend did at a party last week. For no reason slapped and grabbed my ass. She was drunk and sure it probably meant nothing...but I told my wife anyway.


----------



## happi_g_more2

One more "digging up the past" question and then Ill be caught up on this thread. This one is for Jack and I hope it hasnt been discussed and I just missed it...and carrie, im not making an accusation. however, how coincidental is it that you happend to not feel good and come home from work early during the 1 - 30mins in your wifes married life that she had another mans penis inside her? Do you think you had 6th sense that day. I am huge believer in that 6th sense. Seems like everytime I get that twinge in my stomach, I end up being right.


----------



## Carrie420

Squeakr said:


> I bet this is killing you and will haunt you for a while. Now take that pain and remember it forever and use it to build from and motivate yourself never to stray again or be tempted by someone else. Just think about it this way, you were lucky in that you only heard her voice, name, and her seduction attempt of Jack, now think about how devastating and painful it would be if you had to put the voice and name to a naked body in the heated throws of sexual intercourse in your house and bed with Jack and you had just witnessed the whole thing. Build, grow and learn from this so it never gets repeated again.


Thank you so much Squeakr.


----------



## Carrie420

happi_g_more2 said:


> I hope this isnt too obnoxious bringing up old remarks on a thread. but Im trying to catch up on this monster (almost 100 pages). Im sure no one needs newbie like me jumping in, but Im just had to comment.
> 
> To answer your question, yes. No, it take that back F-YES!!! You come home and let your husband/wife know about everyone in your life that is making passes at you. Had you told Jack, he may-probably-would have told the guy F off and you might not be in this mess. My wife and I do this religiously. In fact, i just informed her something small her friend did at a party last week. For no reason slapped and grabbed my ass. She was drunk and sure it probably meant nothing...but I told my wife anyway.


You make a very good point. If Jack had known about the OMs advances, Jack would have put a stop to it once and for all. And we'd still be in a faithful marriage.

What ifs are driving me crazy. They're valid points to ponder, but they're making me batty.


----------



## Carrie420

happi_g_more2 said:


> One more "digging up the past" question and then Ill be caught up on this thread. This one is for Jack and I hope it hasnt been discussed and I just missed it...and carrie, im not making an accusation. however, how coincidental is it that you happend to not feel good and come home from work early during the 1 - 30mins in your wifes married life that she had another mans penis inside her? Do you think you had 6th sense that day. I am huge believer in that 6th sense. Seems like everytime I get that twinge in my stomach, I end up being right.


Jack won't be home for a while. He's helping friends move from one house to another. I'm sure he'll answer your question when he gets home.


----------



## Carrie420

I had IC today. And the only topic of discussion was “Lisa”.

I explained everything I knew about her and Jack. About her calling Jack yesterday, and what I heard on speaker phone. About my feelings now that this has become personal to me. I vented my jealousy and anger and frustration and hurt. And cried until tears wouldn’t come any more.

Then the IC had her say.

She basically said “Carrie, out of all the months you and Jack were separated, Jack has been with only one other woman, and for only one night. And the one he chose was someone who subconsciously reminded him of you, both looks-wise and personality-wise. Deep inside, he really wanted it to be you……………but let's face the cold hard truth and get it over with: you weren’t there for him. And you have to face that fact head on and hurt over it and cry over it and hash over it until you can accept it and forgive yourself. And that should happen sooner rather than later, so you can continue helping Jack heal”. 

And that broke my heart all over again. Jack was always there for me when I needed him. He saved my life and fought for me and protected me. But I wasn’t there for him when he needed me, and somebody else was. 

She continued and basically said “Decide right now ALL the things you really have to know about their night together, if anything. Develop a list of only the necessary questions. And be prepared to hear tough answers. Face your fears, but make sure you don’t ask for details unless you really feel the need to know. Because you can’t unhear an answer once Jack has given it.”

I have a (very short) list of (general) questions; nothing too detailed. No "what did you do with her" questions. Just basic things I have to know. Such as:

1. Did you have any contact with Lisa after she broke your 2nd date?

2. Did you have any emotional or physical attraction to Lisa after we reconciled?

Jack will be home soon. My heart is pounding and I’m shaking.


----------



## foolme2x

Carrie420 said:


> You make a very good point. If Jack had known about the OMs advances, Jack would have put a stop to it once and for all. And we'd still be in a faithful marriage.


Leaving aside the question of why you weren't able to stop it yourself, how exactly would Jack have put a stop to it? Beaten this guy up PRE-coitus? Or (I hope), are you saying that if you had told him about the feelings you were developing for another man, maybe that would have defused the situation in your own mind? Because putting the burden on Jack to swoop in and "fix" things so that you don't cheat is kind of ridiculous.


----------



## Carrie420

foolme2x said:


> Leaving aside the question of why you weren't able to stop it yourself, how exactly would Jack have put a stop to it? Beaten this guy up PRE-coitus? Or (I hope), are you saying that if you had told him about the feelings you were developing for another man, maybe that would have defused the situation in your own mind? Because putting the burden on Jack to swoop in and "fix" things so that you don't cheat is kind of ridiculous.


The person I was answering asked why I didn't tell Jack about the OMs advances toward me over a 2 year period. And I was just agreeing that if I had told Jack, then the affair probably would not have happened.

I was in no way trying to blame anyone but me for the affair.


----------



## mahike

foolme2x said:


> Leaving aside the question of why you weren't able to stop it yourself, how exactly would Jack have put a stop to it? Beaten this guy up PRE-coitus? Or (I hope), are you saying that if you had told him about the feelings you were developing for another man, maybe that would have defused the situation in your own mind? Because putting the burden on Jack to swoop in and "fix" things so that you don't cheat is kind of ridiculous.


It looks like Carrie thinks of Jack as a fixer, hero type and it would not have happened if he knew. Jack is helping a friend move right now. He is the caretaker in the relationship.

I saw the other comment about the sixth sense of knowing something is going on. I am a believer in gut feelings.


----------



## foolme2x

Carrie420 said:


> The person I was answering asked why I didn't tell Jack about the OMs advances toward me over a 2 year period. And I was just agreeing that if I had told Jack, then the affair probably would not have happened.


Yes, I know. What I was asking was WHY would the affair not have happened if only you had told Jack? Because you would have expected him to go all alpha and claim you as his woman yada yada yada? Or because telling him about your co-worker would have caused the attraction between you/OM to diminish, simply from being able to get it out in the air for what it was?

The first is passive on your part; the second is you actively taking responsibility. Which is the one that you think would have happened? Or that you would have wanted to happen?


----------



## Carrie420

foolme2x said:


> Yes, I know. What I was asking was WHY would the affair not have happened if only you had told Jack? Because you would have expected him to go all alpha and claim you as his woman yada yada yada? Or because telling him about your co-worker would have caused the attraction between you/OM to diminish, simply from being able to get it out in the air for what it was?
> 
> The first is passive on your part; the second is you actively taking responsibility. Which is the one that you think would have happened? Or that you would have wanted to happen?


I don't know how to answer your question right now. I was just saying that if I had talked about the OM advances, then something would have prevented the affair.

Honestly, I feel like you're making a mountain out of a molehill on this particular point.

The affair was all my fault. I've never pretended otherwise.


----------



## raven3321

Carrie,

Just my 2 cents but are you sure you want to delve into the "Lisa" questions right now? Reason for the question is that although you're hurting about the incident, it seems a little early in the reconciliaton process to start questioning him about it. The questions aren't so much for Jack's healing but yours. It's almost as if he betrayed you instead of the other way around. I don't know if he'll take it that way but I just wanted to throw it out there before you confront him. If he's the kinda guy that would be open to the questions asked, go for it. I just thought in light of what started this whole broo-haha, it might be insulting to even ask those things.....at least right now.


----------



## foolme2x

Carrie420 said:


> I don't know how to answer your question right now. I was just saying that if I had talked about the OM advances, then something would have prevented the affair.
> 
> Honestly, I feel like you're making a mountain out of a molehill on this particular point.


If you say so. It's just that this:

_*If Jack had known about the OMs advances, Jack would have put a stop to it once and for all. And we'd still be in a faithful marriage.*_

...doesn't sound like nothing to me. But if it was just a blow-off answer to the previous poster, so be it.


----------



## happi_g_more2

mahike said:


> It looks like Carrie thinks of Jack as a fixer, hero type and it would not have happened if he knew. Jack is helping a friend move right now. He is the caretaker in the relationship.
> 
> I saw the other comment about the sixth sense of knowing something is going on. I am a believer in gut feelings.


The real point i was making was how foolish and inconsequential it seems to carrie that she should share with her spouse that a man was advancing on her. The reality is, and I think carry admitted to this, She enjoyed the attention she was getting. She didnt want it to stop. It was her little get away when Jack wasnt especially paying attention to her. So to say that she didnt tell him cause "who tells their spouse everytime someone hits on them", I think is being a bit disingenuous. My response was, basically, who tells their spouse? EVERYONE!!! Everyone who is in a committed relationship. 

This is just my opinion, but the sooner carrie can iron out these small pockets where she is not taking responsibility, the sooner they can achieve a full R. The pockets I refer to are
1) The above mentioned "who wants to bore their spouse with details about all these people hitting on me"
2) I didnt want to have sex, I tried to fight him off. I dont think that Ive seen one time where she has said, "There was a part of me that wanted to have sex with this man so, when I was drunk and my inhibitions were down, I did.
Really not trying to judge, we all have our own demons, just calling it as I see it.


----------



## foolme2x

raven3321 said:


> although you're hurting about the incident, it seems a little early in the reconciliaton process to start questioning him about it. The questions aren't so much for Jack's healing but yours. It's almost as if he betrayed you instead of the other way around..


Totally agree. But I think it's just the way it's going to be for him.


----------



## Carrie420

foolme2x said:


> If you say so. It's just that this:
> 
> _*If Jack had known about the OMs advances, Jack would have put a stop to it once and for all. And we'd still be in a faithful marriage.*_
> 
> ...doesn't sound like nothing to me. But if it was just a blow-off answer to the previous poster, so be it.


No, you're right, I did mean that Jack would have stopped it, because that's Jack. But I didn't mean it as an excuse for the bad choice I made.


----------



## Carrie420

Jack and I just got done discussing Lisa. He was patient and answered each question I asked. I am satisfied now that I know everything I need to know about that. And although I'm still hurting over it, I maybe can see me moving past it sometime soon. I hope so.


----------



## WalterWhite420

davecarter said:


> I have some questions:
> 
> *Carrie*
> 1 - Do you feel you could have helped your medic-roomie at all?
> 2 - What kind of wine were you drinking last night?
> 
> *Jack*
> 1 - Where was Carrie on New Year's Eve 2013?
> 2 - Did you and Lisa do anything that you think a 'counter-polygraph' would be called for to clear the air?


1. Carrie was at her family's annual New Year's Eve party at her parents' estate. It starts at 4:00PM Dec 31, and lasts until the cows come home on Jan 1.

2. No. But I would agree to a polygraph if Carrie asked for one.


----------



## manticore

foolme2x said:


> Yes, I know. What I was asking was WHY would the affair not have happened if only you had told Jack? Because you would have expected him to go all alpha and claim you as his woman yada yada yada? Or because telling him about your co-worker would have caused the attraction between you/OM to diminish, simply from being able to get it out in the air for what it was?
> 
> The first is passive on your part; the second is you actively taking responsibility. Which is the one that you think would have happened? Or that you would have wanted to happen?





Carrie420 said:


> *I don't know how to answer your question right now.*


dude of course there is a big difference between telling him or not, and of course Walter knewing about his constants advances could have stopped the affair.

If you have been here on TAM for a while, you would notice, that marital preadators (players who love going after married women) take the softly rejections as permission to kept making their advances in the married woman, normally the only way they stop their advances is by two ways.

1.- the woman make a big deal about his insinuations (a big drama episode if you like).

2.- the woman tell his partner about the constant advances and he do something about it (like with my GF).

my GF is no the confrontational type (kind of shy), there was a guy who kept hiting on her, he lives in her appt building, she keep refusing him softly but determinedly, well, he keep giving a sh*t about her telling her how she have a BF, how she was deeply in love with me, one time she was carrying ther S market bags and he took them from her hands and let himself in the appt, that was the last drop, I went to his appt and had serious one side conversation with him, and since then he left her alone, there are men that just not take a no for an answer unless they see consequences coming to them (and I don't mean violence, it could be laboral, financial, marital consequences)

I am not excusing Carrie here, I am just saying that OMs that go after married women don't give a sh*t about softly rejections and keep looking for opportunities to take adventage and complete their game, so yes telling the husband can make a complete difference in how things turn in the end.

PS: even if carrie's OM was not a marital predator, the thinking applies for almost any man who have decided to go after a married woman (while this one is still with her husband)


----------



## foolme2x

manticore said:


> dude of course there is a big difference between telling him or not, and of course Walter knewing about his constants advances could have stopped the affair.


I think you misunderstood my point. 

It wasn't about telling or not telling about unwanted advances from another man. I 100% agree with you that the right thing is to tell your SO when somebody is disrespectful enough to be that persistent. It was about her saying that she wished she had told Jack *so that he would have put a stop to the affair.* As if she were somehow unable? Someone who hits back harder when she's hit (or however that was phrased by Jack)?



manticore said:


> If you have been here on TAM for a while, you would notice, that marital preadators (players who love going after married women) *take the softly rejections* as permission to kept making their advances in the married woman, normally the only way they stop their advances is by two ways.


I reeaallly don't see Carrie as unable to take care of her own business in this respect! If she didn't welcome his advances, she would have shut him down right quick, I have no doubt. So to wish that Jack could have prevented her cheating is just the cop-out of someone trying to avoid responsibility for her own (in)action.


----------



## foolme2x

bigfoot said:


> ...but since I have been reading this thread over the last 2 days and re-reading certain portions... sigh... sorry, but I don't think walterwhite and carrie are real people or at least they may be the same person.
> 
> On 1/11/2014 (permalink #507) Walter claimed to go to a "tantric councilor". On 1/12/2014 (permalink #500 and #507) Carrrie said they went to the "marriage councilor". It is RARE, that two people misspell the same word and use similar sentence structure. Previously, Walter used the abbreviation MC for marriage counselor, but when called upon to spell counselor, he misspelled it, and shortly after he introduces Carrie420, she misspells it the same way. There are other stylistic issues, but that leaps out at me.


Anyway, based on the post above, all I can say is good luck to Carrie and Jack (who have three *counselors* between them so at least one of them would likely know the correct spelling)... whoever he, she, or they may be. :scratchhead:


----------



## davecarter

WalterWhite420 said:


> Carrie was at her family's annual New Year's Eve party at her parents' estate. It starts at 4:00PM Dec 31, and lasts until the cows come home on Jan 1.
> 
> No. But I would agree to a polygraph if Carrie asked for one.


Hmmm...not to cast aspersions on anyone's 'tradition' on New Year's Eve, but man-and-wife-together-at-New-Year is pretty much a shoe in, isn't it?

I think the polygraph is a good idea, not in a tit-for-tat-esque way, but you're both in the clear then...and then you can move forward and do all the marriage-reinventing and carry on with your lives.

Done deal.


----------



## WalterWhite420

davecarter said:


> Hmmm...not to cast aspersions on anyone's 'tradition' on New Year's Eve, but man-and-wife-together-at-New-Year is pretty much a shoe in, isn't it?


Hi Dave,

Thanks for your input. But it seems you may not know that Carrie and I were separated until about Jan 4 of this year. So we were not together at her parents' annual New Year's Eve party.


----------



## brokeneric

How are you holding up bro? Still triggering?


----------



## WalterWhite420

foolme2x said:


> Anyway, based on the post above, all I can say is good luck to Carrie and Jack (who have three *counselors* between them so at least one of them would likely know the correct spelling)... whoever he, she, or they may be. :scratchhead:


The word "councilor" passes spell check, although we both meant to use the second form, counselor.

As Carrie asked the first idiot who originally challenged our authenticity based upon a common misspelled word, don't you have more substance than that to back up your suspicion?


----------



## WalterWhite420

brokeneric said:


> How are you holding up bro? Still triggering?


Yes, still triggering, mostly when Carrie is asleep.

Thank you.


----------



## brokeneric

Forgiving her would be easier than forgiving yourself. Its coz you didn't do anything wrong. When you can get over that, it would be true R for you.


----------



## lisab0105

davecarter said:


> *Hmmm...not to cast aspersions on anyone's 'tradition' on New Year's Eve, but man-and-wife-together-at-New-Year is pretty much a shoe in, isn't it*?
> 
> I think the polygraph is a good idea, not in a tit-for-tat-esque way, but you're both in the clear then...and then you can move forward and do all the marriage-reinventing and carry on with your lives.
> 
> Done deal.


They were separated until just a few weeks ago.


----------



## WalterWhite420

Carrie and I talked till 3:00AM this morning about a lot of things, most of which dealt with her feelings and guilt over Lisa; her guilt in not being there for me. She was in a bad place emotionally, kicking herself and constantly saying how sorry she was. I guess these are the types of roads that must be traveled in order to recover and reconcile.

She asked me if I had contacted Lisa in any way since she broke our 2nd date. I truthfully answered "no". The she asked if I had any feeling for Lisa after Carrie and I reconciled. I truthfully answered "no". That was all she felt she needed to know about Lisa and I.

Carrie's exhausted and sleeping in. She needs it. She's gotten maybe 4 hours sleep in the past 48 hours.

As most of you have been telling us all along, this is going to be a long hard road.


----------



## WalterWhite420

lisab0105 said:


> They were separated until just a few weeks ago.


Yes, thank you.


----------



## SoulStorm

Jack, it's a long hard road, yes. You and Carrie are doing all the right things

It's tough but you guys are on the right track. You both have the remorse. That goes a long way. Keep up the good work.


----------



## Whip Morgan

Hello Walter, 

First, I give my well wishes to you and your wife in regards to reconciling. My question for you is, what are your thoughts on Carrie's belief that had she told you two years ago about the OMs advances, the affair would not happen? I ask because I think along the lines of a previous poster who brought up a good point. Carrie comes across as a naturally strong individual. She could have easily put a foot down on the OMs passes at her,, yet she thinks that it was your job to do so. Since she did not, she allowed the affair to develop. 

What is her plan, moving forward, to address this? If she gets hit on again, will she address it directly, or just tell you? I understand that you have been cast as a Mr. Fix It, which I don't think is fair to you as a BS. It is her responsibility , not yours.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happi_g_more2

happi_g_more2 said:


> One more "digging up the past" question and then Ill be caught up on this thread. This one is for Jack and I hope it hasnt been discussed and I just missed it...and carrie, im not making an accusation. however, how coincidental is it that you happend to not feel good and come home from work early during the 1 - 30mins in your wifes married life that she had another mans penis inside her? Do you think you had 6th sense that day. I am huge believer in that 6th sense. Seems like everytime I get that twinge in my stomach, I end up being right.


Jack - Not sure if you saw this, but can you answer this question. Carrie said you would, but seems you skipped it


----------



## FoolMEThrice

"I've left no question unasked, and she's answered all questions thoroughly. She's not yet comfortable disclosing all those details here yet. Nor am I. Maybe later."

Took a few days for me to read this with Great Advice given and I am thankful for what I have learned. 

I still can't figure out what "Questions/Answers Carrie can't divulge regarding personal exchanges between her and the OM that would be "Disconcerting for Jack to read on the thread," I truly can't think of anything else that could be so devastating to discuss?

According to her polygraph Carrie Never kissed or "French Kissed" this man ,as Jack has written. Never oral sex- Nothing sexual ever went on from the time she first met the OM to a one time ONS? Nothing! 

I know they discussed this and the question has been asked to talk about it.... please-but Carrie can't. What am I missing?


----------



## foolme2x

FoolMEThrice said:


> "I've left no question unasked, and she's answered all questions thoroughly. She's not yet comfortable disclosing all those details here yet. Nor am I. Maybe later."
> 
> Took a few days for me to read this with Great Advice given and I am thankful for what I have learned.
> 
> I still can't figure out what "Questions/Answers Carrie can't divulge regarding personal exchanges between her and the OM that would be "Disconcerting for Jack to read on the thread," I truly can't think of anything else that could be so devastating to discuss?
> 
> According to her polygraph Carrie Never kissed or "French Kissed" this man ,as Jack has written. Never oral sex- Nothing sexual ever went on from the time she first met the OM to a one time ONS? Nothing!
> 
> I know they discussed this and the question has been asked to talk about it.... please-but Carrie can't. What am I missing?


Nice user name.  

This gets at part of what I was feeling, too. Of course, people should only divulge what they are comfortable with, I guess, but then there's a limit to how help can be given. If this is on the up and up, either there's some backstory that we're not privy to, or..? 

And wow. I'm an idiot? *sniff* So hurtful. 

Jack/Carrie, how in the world would anyone be able to provide substantial proof of who you are? I posted here in good faith (up till now), although having been here a year plus, I'd never seen any other thread have this many people who felt something was off. I only post when a situation really hits close to home, because it hurts to dredge up those memories. It's like you relive it all for a short while. But, frankly, I started to feel as if I were reading what an undergraduate in a creative writing course would see as a good story. The shared misspelling of a word that's pretty common in these parts by 2 people (?) with multiple advanced degrees between them was just the icing on the cake. And, truthfully, I don't like to re-experience my personal pain for potentially no good reason. So maybe that makes me a coward rather than an idiot.


----------



## davecarter

foolme2x said:


> Nice user name.
> 
> This gets at part of what I was feeling, too. Of course, people should only divulge what they are comfortable with, I guess, but then there's a limit to how help can be given. If this is on the up and up, either there's some backstory that we're not privy to, or..?
> 
> And wow. I'm an idiot? *sniff* So hurtful.
> 
> Jack/Carrie, how in the world would anyone be able to provide substantial proof of who you are? I posted here in good faith (up till now), although having been here a year plus, I'd never seen any other thread have this many people who felt something was off. I only post when a situation really hits close to home, because it hurts to dredge up those memories. It's like you relive it all for a short while. But, frankly, I started to feel as if I were reading what an undergraduate in a creative writing course would see as a good story. The shared misspelling of a word that's pretty common in these parts by 2 people (?) with multiple advanced degrees between them was just the icing on the cake. And, truthfully, I don't like to re-experience my personal pain for potentially no good reason. So maybe that makes me a coward rather than an idiot.


Maybe its the Chilean Merlot?


----------



## lenzi

foolme2x said:


> If this is on the up and up
> 
> I'd never seen any other thread have this many people who felt something was off.
> 
> I started to feel as if I were reading what an undergraduate in a creative writing course would see as a good story
> 
> . The shared misspelling of a word that's pretty common in these parts by 2 people (?) with multiple advanced degrees between them was just the icing on the cake.


You obviously have doubts about the story, going so far as to say the misspelled words were the "icing on the cake".



foolme2x said:


> And, truthfully, I don't like to re-experience my personal pain for potentially no good reason. So maybe that makes me a coward rather than an idiot.


I'm not going to say that I think you're wrong for doubting this story, but I will suggest that since you do have your doubts and you don't like to experience your own personal pain for potentially no good reason, then why not post on some of the thousands of other threads on this board rather than one you doubt is real? If you're right, then all you're doing is giving attention to one or more trolls and causing yourself unnecessary pain.


----------



## WalterWhite420

bandit.45 said:


> The guy tripped coming out of the bathroom with his drawers and Carrie caught him with her vagina.
> 
> Bad joke.... sorry I couldn't resist.


Yeah; a really bad joke.


----------



## WalterWhite420

foolme2x said:


> Nice user name.
> 
> This gets at part of what I was feeling, too. Of course, people should only divulge what they are comfortable with, I guess, but then there's a limit to how help can be given. If this is on the up and up, either there's some backstory that we're not privy to, or..?
> 
> And wow. I'm an idiot? *sniff* So hurtful.
> 
> Jack/Carrie, how in the world would anyone be able to provide substantial proof of who you are? I posted here in good faith (up till now), although having been here a year plus, I'd never seen any other thread have this many people who felt something was off. I only post when a situation really hits close to home, because it hurts to dredge up those memories. It's like you relive it all for a short while. But, frankly, I started to feel as if I were reading what an undergraduate in a creative writing course would see as a good story. The shared misspelling of a word that's pretty common in these parts by 2 people (?) with multiple advanced degrees between them was just the icing on the cake. And, truthfully, I don't like to re-experience my personal pain for potentially no good reason. So maybe that makes me a coward rather than an idiot.


I'm sorry I called you an idiot. I apologize.

I'm not upset with you for thinking I'm a fake. Hell, I don't believe everything I read or hear either. Everybody is unique.

My contention is that IF you think I'm a fake, then why are you wasting your time posting in my thread?

If you lace your WELCOME advice with sarcastic disbelief, then you're hurting instead of helping.

How difficult is it to simply ignore a thread that you think is fake?


----------



## WalterWhite420

SoulStorm said:


> Jack, it's a long hard road, yes. You and Carrie are doing all the right things
> 
> It's tough but you guys are on the right track. You both have the remorse. That goes a long way. Keep up the good work.


Thank you SS.


----------



## WalterWhite420

Whip Morgan said:


> Hello Walter,
> 
> First, I give my well wishes to you and your wife in regards to reconciling. My question for you is, what are your thoughts on Carrie's belief that had she told you two years ago about the OMs advances, the affair would not happen? I ask because I think along the lines of a previous poster who brought up a good point. Carrie comes across as a naturally strong individual. She could have easily put a foot down on the OMs passes at her,, yet she thinks that it was your job to do so. Since she did not, she allowed the affair to develop.
> 
> What is her plan, moving forward, to address this? If she gets hit on again, will she address it directly, or just tell you? I understand that you have been cast as a Mr. Fix It, which I don't think is fair to you as a BS. It is her responsibility , not yours.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


These are good questions.

Carrie responded to a question that dealt with telling me about the OMs advances. She replied by saying that IF she had told me, then I would have been proactive by having a man-to-man with the OM that surely would have stopped his advances. That was her response because she knows how I would have reacted.

Why didn't she tell me about the OMs advances? We've never been the kind of couple who comes home every day and tells one another about who hit on us that particular day.

In my case, I get hit on just every now and then. Maybe once or twice a month. In Carrie's case, she can hardly go to Wal Mart without getting hit on. And that's the truth. Should she have told me about all those hits? Yes, I now agree that she should have. Definitely. Especially when it happened off and on by the same guy over a 2 year period.

Yes, she was strong enough to have stopped it. And she should have. Se knows it and I know it. And I'm working through that. And it's very hard.

I agree that we should now tell one another about every time someone hits on us.


----------



## WalterWhite420

happi_g_more2 said:


> Jack - Not sure if you saw this, but can you answer this question. Carrie said you would, but seems you skipped it


I'm a HUGE sci-fi fan, and love to read about the brain and psychological theories. And I do believe there is some slight credibility to a "sixth sense".

But I don't think I have one. I went home early that day because my conference had been unexpectedly rescheduled for the next day, and I felt queezy after lunch.


----------



## WalterWhite420

lenzi said:


> So anyone who challenges your authenticity is an idiot?
> 
> Just clarifying here.
> 
> What else makes people idiots in your world, Jack?


No. But anyone who thinks that a common misspelled word between Carrie and I PROVES we're fake...

You're right. Even that doesn't make them an idiot. And I have apologized to the guy I called an idiot.


----------



## happyman64

WalterWhite420 said:


> I'm sorry I called you an idiot. I apologize.
> 
> I'm not upset with you for thinking I'm a fake. Hell, I don't believe everything I read or hear either. Everybody is unique.
> 
> My contention is that IF you think I'm a fake, then why are you wasting your time posting in my thread?
> 
> If you lace your WELCOME advice with sarcastic disbelief, then you're hurting instead of helping.
> 
> How difficult is it to simply ignore a thread that you think is fake?


How many degrees does it take a reader to recognize that you are both using the same PC that has a simple spell checker and that you both login under your respective user ID's???

Oh I get this trick question......

It is not the number of degrees a person has but the patience a person requires to read every page of this thread and not the first and last pages only.......


----------



## lenzi

Jack, are you aware that you can "multiquote" and put all of the different posts you quoted into one or two posts rather than spread them out over multiple posts?

Not sure if you know or even care but seeing so many sequential posts by the same poster sort of triggers my OCD and I just HAVE to comment on it.

For you or anyone who doesn't know how to put it all in one post, it's a simple matter of opening the first quoted post in a new browser tab by right clicking the post you're going to quote, and then click "open link in new tab". Then you've got a reply box ready to go that you can continue to fill in with posts that you can quote and reply to on the first page, and copy and paste into your waiting reply box on the new tab, and continue doing so until you're ready to hit reply. Yes there are other ways of doing it including using the "multi" button but I don't think they're quite as intuitive.


----------



## happyman64

WalterWhite420 said:


> I'm a HUGE sci-fi fan, and love to read about the brain and psychological theories. And I do believe there is some slight credibility to a "sixth sense".
> 
> But I don't think I have one. *I went home early that day because my conference had been unexpectedly rescheduled for the next day, and I felt queezy after lunch.[*/QUOTE]
> 
> Some would call that divine intervention Jack..... 😇


----------



## lenzi

WalterWhite420 said:


> I'm a HUGE sci-fi fan, and love to read about the brain and psychological theories. And I do believe there is some slight credibility to a "sixth sense".
> 
> But I don't think I have one. I went home early that day because my conference had been unexpectedly rescheduled for the next day, and I felt queezy after lunch.


Doesn't have to be anything supernatural. Could be a totally unconscious feeling, something you picked up from her behavior, or something she said, or the way she said it that made you feel something was going on. Enough to cause you some minor stomach upset..



happyman64 said:


> Some would call that divine intervention Jack..... &#55357;&#56839;


I call it good luck.

How many affairs go undiscovered because the betrayed spouses meeting or work schedule was not changed? Did some divine power decide to completely blow them off because they didn't pray enough or something?


----------



## WalterWhite420

lenzi said:


> Jack, are you aware that you can "multiquote" and put all of the different posts you quoted into one or two posts rather than spread them out over multiple posts?
> 
> Not sure if you know or even care but seeing so many sequential posts by the same poster sort of triggers my OCD and I just HAVE to comment on it.
> 
> For you or anyone who doesn't know how to put it all in one post, it's a simple matter of opening the first quoted post in a new browser tab by right clicking the post you're going to quote, and then click "open link in new tab". Then you've got a reply box ready to go that you can continue to fill in with posts that you can quote and reply to on the first page, and copy and paste into your waiting reply box on the new tab, and continue doing so until you're ready to hit reply. Yes there are other ways of doing it including using the "multi" button but I don't think they're quite as intuitive.


Well, I can understand OCD...got a bit of it myself.

I've used the multi-quote before. I'll try to combine similar responses into one post.

Thank you.


----------



## WalterWhite420

lenzi said:


> Doesn't have to be anything supernatural. Could be a totally unconscious feeling, something you picked up from her behavior, or something she said, or the way she said it that made you feel something was going on. Enough to cause you some minor stomach upset..
> 
> I call it good luck.
> 
> How many affairs go undiscovered because the betrayed spouses meeting or work schedule was not changed? Did some divine power decide to completely blow them off because they didn't pray enough or something?


I can't argue with that. The power and ability of the brain has yet to be fully understood. In fact, as a medical researcher, I can tell you that we're not even CLOSE to truly understanding the brain. It's the most complex thing we know of in all the universe, in my opinion.

Just like I selected my New Year's Eve hookup partner based upon the facts that she looked and acted like Carrie. I had no idea. I would have called anyone crazy for suggesting something so far out. But my IC immediately knew, and I've come to know it's true myself. My suppressed deep love for Carrie came through in me approaching Lisa that night, and starting a conversation with her.


----------



## Carrie420

bandit.45 said:


> The guy tripped coming out of the bathroom with his drawers and Carrie caught him with her vagina.
> 
> Bad joke.... sorry I couldn't resist.


I'm really so very disappointed in you Bandit. For someone who has helped me and encouraged me in the past, this joke was far beneath you. Or so I would have thought.


----------



## lenzi

Carrie420 said:


> I'm really so very disappointed in you Bandit. For someone who has helped me and encouraged me in the past, this joke was far beneath you. Or so I would have thought.


I too was rather surprised at the low quality joke/unprovoked attack by a poster who doesn't typically take such an approach.



WalterWhite420 said:


> Just like I selected my New Year's Eve hookup partner based upon the facts that she looked and acted like Carrie... My suppressed deep love for Carrie came through in me approaching Lisa that night, and starting a conversation with her.


Or, you're attracted to the same type of woman.


----------



## Carrie420

Bandit,

When I passed the polygraph, you made an encouraging post, and I remember I cried with joy that someone (you) who had been hard but fair with me would congratulate me in the midst of my exhaustion...I honestly felt honored...

And then to read your insulting joke tonight about me just undid all of that.


----------



## lenzi

Carrie420 said:


> Bandit,
> 
> When I passed the polygraph, you made an encouraging post, and I remember I cried with joy that someone (you) who had been hard but fair with me would congratulate me in the midst of my exhaustion...I honestly felt honored...
> 
> And then to read your insulting joke tonight about me just undid all of that.


I know it's difficult but try not to let an anonymous stranger on the internet have such a profound effect on you.


----------



## happi_g_more2

WalterWhite420 said:


> I'm a HUGE sci-fi fan, and love to read about the brain and psychological theories. And I do believe there is some slight credibility to a "sixth sense".
> 
> But I don't think I have one. I went home early that day because my conference had been unexpectedly rescheduled for the next day, and I felt queezy after lunch.


Sorry man. I haven't seen this really discussed here at any length, so i have to say: I don't want to be disrespectful to this situation or your wife or your "love" for each other. But the fact that this guy hit on your wife for 2 years and they never, not once, had contact, then he shows up and they have sex for??? 5mins-20mins-1 hour, whatever, and you just happen to come home early on that day at that time to catch them. I think you are nuckin futz for believing that. But that's just me.


----------



## confusedFather

Jack/Carrie

I've just recently come back to TAM and have read through your posts but skipped a lot of the other so forgive me if I say something you've already heard.

Firstly for Jack, hang in there, it does get better. I used to think I had to get to a point where I no longer thought about my wife's affair. The fact is I don't think I'll ever get there. I think about it every single day; probably several times on some days. But, the sting and hurt does go away. I've truly gotten to the point that most times I think about it I just tell myself "that's not who she is NOW" and I move on without dwelling on it and letting it get me down. There are even times I just think "so what".

Secondly for Carrie, be patient. There will be times he triggers and gets angry. There is a fine line between letting him vent and letting him treat you like a punching bag, figuratively speaking. I believe when you forgive you give up the right to bring it up in anger. I even told my wife to hold me accountable to this. Based on what I've read so far, and your willingness to come on here and post while still trying to R, I think you two stand a good chance of getting past this.

Thirdly for all the doubters, I hope you're right; it's better than the alternative. I've posted in several threads where the authenticity has been doubted. What does it matter to you? As Jack said, why waste your time here if you think it's fake. Are you hear to read others dirty laundry and feeling cheated if it's not real? Focus on what YOU get out of being here and posting. Yes, it's good thinking you're helping others but is that really why we come back or does posting help you in your own healing? For me it some of both and if the thread is genuine or not is not why I'm here.

Jack and Carrie, for what it's worth, I think you're genuine. You sound like a great couple and I pray you'll continue to heal.


----------



## confusedFather

lenzi said:


> I know it's difficult but try not to let an anonymous stranger on the internet have such a profound effect on you.


:iagree: 

Also, don't be to hard on bandit. Sometimes we laugh so we don't cry. I sometimes joke with my wife about it. Not to be mean but it's a way I cope and sometimes it slips out. I know it's wrong but don't really mean it to be mean. Bandit probably was doing the same.


----------



## the guy

Some times its hard to get a read on folks here at TAM...look at me...I hate everyone and I still try to help others that went thru what I went thru:


----------



## davecarter

Penalty-box for *bandit*.
:redcard:


----------



## happyman64

Carrie420 said:


> Bandit,
> 
> When I passed the polygraph, you made an encouraging post, and I remember I cried with joy that someone (you) who had been hard but fair with me would congratulate me in the midst of my exhaustion...I honestly felt honored...
> 
> And then to read your insulting joke tonight about me just undid all of that.


Carrie

It only undoes all of your progress if you let it.

I was going to refer you to Bandits original thread but it is gone so I will only say this.

Ask Bandit what he thinks about giving a wayward spouse a 2nd chance.

It will enlighten you & Jack. It most likely will not be what you want to hear but most probably should hear.

Stay at it Carrie.

HM


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: My Living Hell*



confusedFather said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Also, don't be to hard on bandit. Sometimes we laugh so we don't cry. I sometimes joke with my wife about it. Not to be mean but it's a way I cope and sometimes it slips out. I know it's wrong but don't really mean it to be mean. Bandit probably was doing the same.


Bandit is a good guy. Life has dealt him some pretty harsh blows and he's had to get even tougher than he already was as a result. But there's nobody I'd want more at my side or watching my back. He'll give you the unvarnished truth when others are too timid or unsure. Carrie, bandit made a joke and it hurt you. You're going to have to toughen up if you want to ride this out. You're going to have to grow a thicker skin as a result of your previous actions. It's not going to be the last time you hear something you consider insensitive.


----------



## MovingAhead

I'll say it. Walter. I think you are a fake and I think Carrie is a fake too and I think you both are the same person. The same Daisy, the same Regretful Strayer.

I think you really have nothing better to do with your life except post on an anonymous forum to see how popular you can get your thread going by talking about how much drama you can create.

I have been wrong in the past and I am sure I will be wrong again, but I believe what I just said. I could be wrong though. I'm just not paying attention to your wandering thread. I think you are an attention ho.

I just wonder which character you want to play. RS or WW, Daisy or Carrie or all of them. I don't know. I think your thread is absolutely fake.

You aren't looking for help here. You are looking for drama.

Just my two cents.


----------



## davecarter

MovingAhead said:


> I'll say it. Walter. I think you are a fake and I think Carrie is a fake too and I think you both are the same person. The same Daisy, the same Regretful Strayer.
> 
> I think you really have nothing better to do with your life except post on an anonymous forum to see how popular you can get your thread going by talking about how much drama you can create.
> 
> I have been wrong in the past and I am sure I will be wrong again, but I believe what I just said. I could be wrong though. I'm just not paying attention to your wandering thread. I think you are an attention ho.
> 
> I just wonder which character you want to play. RS or WW, Daisy or Carrie or all of them. I don't know. I think your thread is absolutely fake.
> 
> You aren't looking for help here. You are looking for drama.
> 
> Just my two cents.


:nono: MH...you are going to receive the Wrath of Walter and Skyler for this!


----------



## bfree

Actually I think he may receive a ban.


----------



## Carrie420

> Bandit,
> 
> When I passed the polygraph, you made an encouraging post, and I remember I cried with joy that someone (you) who had been hard but fair with me would congratulate me in the midst of my exhaustion...I honestly felt honored...
> 
> And then to read your insulting joke tonight about me just undid all of that.





happyman64 said:


> Carrie
> 
> It only undoes all of your progress if you let it.
> 
> I was going to refer you to Bandits original thread but it is gone so I will only say this.
> 
> Ask Bandit what he thinks about giving a wayward spouse a 2nd chance.
> 
> It will enlighten you & Jack. It most likely will not be what you want to hear but most probably should hear.
> 
> Stay at it Carrie.
> 
> HM


Thank you HM. I didn't mean that Bandit's inappropriate joke undid any progress I've made. But I had developed respect for him because he seemed interested in trying to help. Which was why I was so surprised by his insulting joke.

I'm not going to let it tear me down, but it's the kind of thing that could contribute to tearing a person down.


----------



## Carrie420

MovingAhead said:


> I'll say it. Walter. I think you are a fake and I think Carrie is a fake too and I think you both are the same person. The same Daisy, the same Regretful Strayer.
> 
> I think you really have nothing better to do with your life except post on an anonymous forum to see how popular you can get your thread going by talking about how much drama you can create.
> 
> I have been wrong in the past and I am sure I will be wrong again, but I believe what I just said. I could be wrong though. I'm just not paying attention to your wandering thread. I think you are an attention ho.
> 
> I just wonder which character you want to play. RS or WW, Daisy or Carrie or all of them. I don't know. I think your thread is absolutely fake.
> 
> You aren't looking for help here. You are looking for drama.
> 
> Just my two cents.


Then you've had your say. Now STFU and leave.

Better yet, stick around and show your utter stupidity by continuing to post in a thread you don't believe in...please just ONE more post.

And then STFU and leave.


----------



## thummper

Carrie, I've followed Walter's thread from the beginning and I was soooo impressed by his *obvious* love for you. I'm not in the least clairvoyant but even I knew that he would NEVER be able to let you go. The strength of his feelings for you shone out through everything he said. I think we all knew you two would find each other again and never regret it! Your devotion to him and his to you is very inspiring. I hope you have many, many years of happiness together. And for heaven's sake, ignore some of the naysayers here. Just go with your own feelings.  Be well. Be happy. And cherish your love for each other.


----------



## Carrie420

thummper said:


> Carrie, I've followed Walter's thread from the beginning and I was soooo impressed by his *obvious* love for you. I'm not in the least clairvoyant but even I knew that he would NEVER be able to let you go. The strength of his feelings for you shone out through everything he said. I think we all knew you two would find each other again and never regret it! Your devotion to him and his to you is very inspiring. I hope you have many, many years of happiness together. And for heaven's sake, ignore some of the naysayers here. Just go with your own feelings.  Be well. Be happy. And cherish your love for each other.


Thank you thumper.

I am so blessed to have a husband who loves me like Jack does. And I adore him so.

I know I was dealt a good hand in life, but Jack is the ace.


----------



## brokeneric

Carrie, do you trigger?


----------



## Carrie420

brokeneric said:


> Carrie, do you trigger?


Yes. My cousin (one of my best friends ever) is named "Lisa". While shopping with her today, it was kinda wierd to say her name. It reminded me of the other Lisa.

But I've got to get over this Lisa thing. Lisa did nothing wrong. Neither did Jack. And I've got to forgive myself for driving them together. It's not gonna be easy though.


----------



## WalterWhite420

confusedFather said:


> Also, don't be to hard on bandit. Sometimes we laugh so we don't cry. I sometimes joke with my wife about it. Not to be mean but it's a way I cope and sometimes it slips out. I know it's wrong but don't really mean it to be mean. Bandit probably was doing the same.


Thanks CF. But I can't see how bandit's joke was meant for anything except for hurtful harm. Carrie sees it the same way. And she had a lot of respect for him. Quite a lot.

If he meant it in any other way, then let him say so here. He's more than welcome to explain how he meant that personal and vulgar joke about my wife for good.

bandit, do you have an explanation? Your silence in this matter serves only to corroborate your ill intentions.


----------



## Whip Morgan

Thank you for the response Walter. In moving forward, she will have to be proactive in protecting your relationship. That includes setting boundaries and shutting down men who make passes at her. I think one thing that concerned some posters before me was the way she described her actions and what she should have done, which was just to tell you and that's it. What she should have done was shut this guy down, but instead she gave him the green light for two years which led to her beginning te physical side of the affair. 

When you two had discussed your plan of action moving forward, things like Rose Bowl trips and writing classes mean absolutely nothing if your wife is not changing her behaviors and establishing strict boundaries. Ultimately, I gained the impression that led to the Mr. Fixit image being put on you, which is not fair or productive. Good luck to you
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WalterWhite420

bandit.45 said:


> I was down on the border hunting quail yesterday...
> 
> It was a rude joke. An old, rude joke that has been around forever. I thought it was funny, and I sometimes forget that what is funny to a guy is not often funny to a woman.
> 
> I didn't mean to be mean Carrie.
> 
> Good for you standing up for your woman's honor Walter. I guess if we were together in person you'd give me the slap across the face with the white glove and then we'd have to throw down.
> 
> I'll stay off your thread.


We accept your apology.


----------



## manfromlamancha

MovingAhead said:


> I'll say it. Walter. I think you are a fake and I think Carrie is a fake too and I think you both are the same person. The same Daisy, the same Regretful Strayer.
> 
> I think you really have nothing better to do with your life except post on an anonymous forum to see how popular you can get your thread going by talking about how much drama you can create.
> 
> I have been wrong in the past and I am sure I will be wrong again, but I believe what I just said. I could be wrong though. I'm just not paying attention to your wandering thread. I think you are an attention ho.
> 
> I just wonder which character you want to play. RS or WW, Daisy or Carrie or all of them. I don't know. I think your thread is absolutely fake.
> 
> You aren't looking for help here. You are looking for drama.
> 
> Just my two cents.


Have known this since the OM "died" - just feedback for your writing style - avoid the sensationalism!


----------



## Carrie420

Jack and I were invited to my parent's house for lunch today. As it turned out, it was a surprise party for Jack and I to celebrate our reconciliation. Almost everyone from both sides of our family were there. There were no cars when we arrived, as everyone parked in the back pasture.

We walked into my parents' house and everyone yelled "surprise". It was awesome. We had a really good time. 

We feel really encouraged. Every day is different for us now. Some days are good, and some are bad. Today was a great day.


----------



## Csquare

Fake or not, Walt, Carrie he/she/it is probably working through some painful stuff and this forum is a safe place to do so. Ever notice that *fiction* writing is more authentic, with more genuine emotions, than non-fiction?

Carrie, I find your reaction to bandit's little "joke" to be revealing. Are you someone who needs a lot of external validation? Did OM provide that? Might want to examine that piece.

What do you need to do to go deep and give yourself that love, approval, assurance - regardless of what others say and of distracting circumstances.

Tough with all that *white noise* swirling about you about your smarts, beauty, talent, etc. You have to go deeper than that and find that place that is beyond those surface attributes to the worthwhile person within.


----------



## Philat

davecarter said:


> :nono: MH...you are going to receive the Wrath of Walter and Skyler for this!


Just call Saul.


----------



## verpin zal

I'm drunk, thankfully, my English is still sufficient to post this.

I had written this down, but had refrained from posting it for reasons unknown, and had saved it to a notepad file on my desktop. Who can say, maybe I was waiting for the right time to post. The right time is ago.

*begin*

[quote lenzi's post somewhere around there]

I've had enough of this vagina joke charade.

That (and those) anonymous strangers began reading this thread with a description of some singer sewing machine.

Jokes about a vagina could be considered "mild" next to that.

Or since my language isn't English and I'm not American, that could be just me I reckon. Folks will forgive me if I am somewhat unfamiliar with a culture that talks about sewing machines, OMs and marital beds quite openly and gorily on a public forum board.

*end*

And oh, by the way,

Jack? How's the sewing machine doing? He's not still around, I fervently hope? Hah.


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## Mr Blunt

> By Carrie
> Jack and I were invited to my parent's house for lunch today. As it turned out, it was a surprise party for Jack and I to *celebrate our reconciliation. Almost everyone from both sides of our family were there*. There were no cars when we arrived, as everyone parked in the back pasture.



I know that any marriage partner that has sex with anyone not their partner has committed one of the greatest giant killers of relationships of all time. I know I do not have to tell Jack and Carrie that as they are feeling every sharp pain from their teeth to the bottom of their feet. I bet they would rather have root canal without pain killers than the pain they now have.

It is so very early in their R and the Honey moon R-period is in full bloom. The first year of the Honey Moon-R can be the most intense and emotionally exhilarating. I have read where it takes around 4-5 years to fully test the R. There are people on this thread that are sure that they are going to fail and some that think that Jack and Carrie are trolls. It would be more convincing if they would give some DETAILED reason as to why they think that rather than mostly their opinion. I know that it is possible that they are trolls but at this point with mostly personal opinion there is not much reason to believe that. 



Based upon this thread being real and I believe it is, Jack and Carrie have a great start and they have a LOT going for them. *Here are a few DETAILED reasons that I say this:*


1	Jack and Carrie are very well matched in many areas

2	Jack tried to NOT love Carrie but he could not.


3	Carrie has the persistence of ROCKY

4	Carrie has done just about everything to show that her remorse is real


5	Carrie passed all the lie detector questions that proved that she was telling the truth all along	( I noticed a lot of the eternal doubters piped down or quit posting)

6	Jack and Carrie are going to counselling and they BOTH WANT the Counselling!	

7	Jack and Carrie’s family are accepting of the R and happy about it. That family support can be very valuable

8	Jack will take up for Carrie when the posters spew their spitefulness


Jack and Carrie you are in the first few minutes of the first quarter of your own marriage super bowl. However Jack and Carrie have already scored a touch down! Yes they have a lot more game to time to fight as they are not even out of the first quarter. *I am on the sidelines cheering for for Jack and Carrie!!!*


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## EI

Jack and Carrie are both banned?  What did I miss? :scratchhead:


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## lenzi

EI said:


> Jack and Carrie are both banned?  What did I miss? :scratchhead:


You missed a stellar performance by the Broncos. 

But then again, we all did.


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## sandc

EI said:


> Jack and Carrie are both banned?  What did I miss? :scratchhead:


Without leaning toward one side or the other, they were accused of being trolls, fired back and... well here we are.


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## bfree

Shoot. That sucks.


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## Mrs. John Adams

Lenzi did it with his pig Latin...lol all I did was laugh


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## 3putt

We all knew it was a troll post from the beginning. Come on. How could you read this and then 50 pages later read, "Oh yeah, I forgot, the OM died a while back as well and I forgot to mention that", and not have a clue?

This was a goodern', though. Pathetic, but good. Sorry I wasn't around for the clown one for comparison though. Probably the same loser.


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## lenzi

3putt said:


> We all knew it was a troll post from the beginning. Come on. How could you read this and then 50 pages later read, "Oh yeah, I forgot, the OM died a while back as well and I forgot to mention that", and not have a clue?


We don't "all know that this was a troll post" and just because one or more posters have been banned (temporarily or otherwise) doesn't mean they were trolls. 

Posters get banned for reasons other than being trolls you know. In fact, they get banned for accusing others of being trolls. 

That's a hint.


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## Deejo

That's all folks ...


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