# Yet Another...Need Some Advice plea



## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

Backstory- Together 19 years, married 16. WH - 41 yrs old, Me - turned 50 this year. 3 grown children from my previous marriage, 28 yrs, 27 yrs, and 25 yrs. WH having an affair since 3/13 with subordinate 14 yrs younger than him (do the math - she's our daughters age!). He told me 7/1 because her live in BF found out and threatened to find me at my workplace and tell me. We had the usual great marriage, I was completely unsuspecting, no one can believe he was the type of guy to do something like this, ad nauseum.

We are both in IC and marriage counseling. He agreed to break off with the AP and it lasted only 5 days. He says he loves her. He is back seeing her. Says she is an addiction and he just can't resist. Right now I am living in our home after fleeing the place on DDay (just moved back over the weekend) and he is out somewhere. 

The past month has been the worse time of my life. I am simply devastated by this. I actually thought I was mentally ill. I've lost 20 lbs and are now on sleep meds and antidepressants. Throughout all this, we've had daily contact, trying to spend time together. For my own sanity and health, last week I pulled the plug. I needed an escape from the toxicity that was going to slowly kill me. No contact at all. Any contact has to be through an intermediary starting last Thursday. Friday morning, bright and early she got an email from him actually referring to me as 'my wife'. This morning, Monday, she got another email from him asking 'did my wife sleep better in her bed?' and inquiring if I managed to eat some meals and how were the dogs. Her only reply was that the dogs are doing fine.

My question - we have a scheduled MC session this Thursday. Should I go? What could I hope to accomplish? Any hope we have for our marriage will only be with her gone. And she's not. Is there any benefit to me being there? I think it is bothering him that he can't contact me. Why? Maybe because he cares or maybe he's trying to manipulate me. Who knows? 

He practically raised my 3 grown children. None of them are talking to him right now. But all three expressed some dismay when I mentioned not going. My daughter said that if we have no communication then that's really the end. My IC said something along those lines too. Not so much that it's the end but what future is there if we aren't talking? 

Two things I try to keep in mind for myself. We are only a month into this. These are early days. And a statistic I heard once that 80% of people after two years regret their divorces. I bitterly regret my first divorce (no infidelity that I know of was involved) and I don't want to have to live with more of that same regret.

And lastly, he is very fatalistic about this affair. Says she is not someone to have a LTR with, believes this will all implode. Also says that he figures he will eventually lose both of us and spend the rest of his life alone. Actually said his original thought before her BF forced his hand, was that the affair would die a natural death and he would devote himself back to our marriage. Now that everything is out in the open, he cannot end it (he's addicted, don't you know?) and actually said at the last MC session that he's just going to have to ride it out until it explodes in his face.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

I believe he wants to be nice to you (other than ending his affair) to assuage his guilt, so he can tell himself he is not a bad man. ("I'm a good man, I just lie and cheat on the one I pledged to love forever - but I am very nice to her, and I care if she slept well, and I care if she eats well, and I care about her dogs. See, I am a good person.")

It's all about looks and sex. Ever see an aging celeb with a 20-year-old model? The old celeb is with the young model for one reason, and it ain't because they are soul mates. She makes him feel good about himself, like he's still "got it." Trophy wife - except even he thinks she's not wife material.

You will make me feel foolish if you post that she is extremely unattractive.

Where do you fit in? Yes, you had all those years together, the ups and downs, the family, mutual love and respect, the LOYALTY. It is human nature to take things (or people) for granted until we lose them. I think the key is letting him realize he is going to lose you.

Whether to go to marriage counseling? It doesn't matter too much one way or the other. I would say go, just so you don't have to listen to everyone later tell you it's your fault the marriage failed. But when you go, let your husband and the counselor both know in no uncertain terms what you need before you will even consider reconciliation. Do not budge from this position.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Ah, the poor me card, I will end up all alone.

He doesn't believe it for a minute, he's trying to get you to back off and pity him.

Suggestions:

1. No MC until the affair is over. It is a total waste of time and money until he is actual working on the marriage, that won't happen until the affair is over.

2. He or she has got to leave the job. No contact can happen ever again. None. Chances are he is going to end up fired as he is her supervisor/superior.

3. Want to kill the affair? Do all if the followng: 1) Inform the live in bf; 2) inform HR ; 3) post her on cheaterville

4. Put a var in his car.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

Great decision to use the intermediary. Best thing you can do is hard no contact. 

You can't reason, beg or counsel him back into the marriage. The affair has to be completely over, dead. I would file for divorce, that MIGHT snap him out of it.

But... He's cheated on you and trust is gone. Very hard road to rebuild it. I've been through a similar situation. My advice, just follow through with the divorce and work on healing from this trauma you've been through.


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

They've already been called into HR because of a coworker's complaint (Guess who she got her info from? Me.) They both baldfaced lied and the only consequence was she now reports through a manager and not directly to him. Unfortunately, they are both pretty valuable to the company, him especially, so the company is willing to make a feeble gesture and look the other way for now. 

Live-in BF knows. He found out first and threatened to tell me which is why WH confessed. 

Filing for divorce? I've already consulted with a lawyer. If we do go down this route, I want to secure the best possible settlement. Even his mother (who is disgusted with him) told me to take him for every penny. His income is roughly $250k while mine is $28k. The state I live in has alimony levels for different lengths of marriage. We are at 16 years right now and at 17 years marriages are considered long-term and the spouse could qualify for lifetime alimony. Also, my state doesn't have any legal separation or waiting period. You file for divorce and 2 months later, it's final. That's just a little too fast for me right now.
And most of all, we are only 4 weeks into this hell (I say only but it feels like a lifetime). I, emotionally and mentally am not ready to take the step to divorce. I was left by my first husband because he 'didn't want to be married anymore' (this was right after deployment as a reservist in the first Gulf War). I do believe he was suffering from PTSD. 9 months after he left me, he wanted to come back. I refused because I was prideful and pissed off. I always regret that because I think I could have insisted on counseling and that we stood a really good chance of success. I really don't want to make that mistake again.

Lastly, I just want to say, in the past month, I've spent a lot of time on the internet and lurking on different forums dedicated to this subject. I just shake my head at some of the stories I read while my heart breaks. They truly don't know what they are doing and the hell they are unleashing on the innocent when they break their vows, do they? And most of them really don't care.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

baxter said:


> They truly don't know what they are doing and the hell they are unleashing on the innocent when they break their vows, do they? And most of them really don't care.


 He knows exactly what he is doing. He is doing a young hottie that is half your age, and she is scr*wing his brains out. The newness, plus the youth, plus the brain drugs that are going off, is something that he wants until she does not want to give it to him anymore. And you are right, he really does not care how much pain this is causing you. He expects you to ride it out until it ends, even if that means years. He does not respect you, and he cannot be in love with someone that he does not respect. The only reason that he has not left you is because of money. He wants to keep all his money and the other woman (OW) too.

You have to be willing to end the marraige to have a chance at having a marriage worth saving. You cannot let him cheat right in front of your face and do nothing. Tell him in a calm voice, that if does not end it right now with full no contact (NC) and full transparency without compliant, that you will be filing for immediate divorce. Say it and mean it if you want a chance at saving your marraige. Then tell him that you will be taking him to the cleaners and that you look forward to finding your own lover to move in with. Let him know that you will not marry again to insure that you get alimony from him for the rest of your life, and that with him being only 41, that means at least 25 years of payments from him. Do not cry or beg. Tell him that now that you have accepted that he is a no good cheat, you see a silver lining it finding someone new for yourself. Tell him "why should you get all the fun?" Then file and see how fast he starts respecting you again.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Then drive her off - post her up on cheaterville and send the link around.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

You also might be able to sue the employee for not taking action?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Before you make up your mind on this read the book "Surviving an Affair".


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Your heartbreak is palpable. I am so sorry.

I wouldn't agree to MC is he is still in the affair. What's the point?


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

I just ordered Surviving the Affair.

Our 17th anniversary will be April 2014. If I file before then, in our state, I will only be eligible for durational alimony. After 17 years, I can qualify for lifetime alimony. So I really want to put off any divorce paperwork until then. Of course, that is 9 months away. An eternity to me the way the way things are going right now.

I do know that given his current state of mind, he is very inattentive. On D day, I went to the bank and put exactly half of our current checking and savings in a separate account under my name only. He never realized I did this until 3 weeks later when I told him. My paycheck also gets deposited to that new account now. I am also 100% positive that he has not contacted a lawyer and has no idea about our state's marriage lengths alimony guidelines.
I also know that he has looked at an apartment no where near to where the AP lives. He changed his email passwords but after D Day I logged onto his computer and checked the xcell sheet where he keeps them all so I have his email passwords and he doesn't know that. Right now the AP is sleeping on her sister's couch while her BF is in their apartment. But WH told me that she will move back into her apartment sometime within the month when BF moves out. So it looks like he's not planning currently for them to live together.

What I would really like to do is save my marriage. I've invested 20 years in this relationship and up until this year, WH has been a stellar partner, just the best husband possible. He raised my children. He adored and supported me. We enjoyed each other's company. I meant my marriage vows and I don't want to lose the chance to recover what we had. Believe me when I tell you that the man I've been seeing since 7/1 is a stranger. I don't recognize him. It is not my husband. 
A little more background - He just turned 41 (red flag for the MC), his father died last year (another red flag for the MC), he is extremely successful and at the pinnacle of this career (according to the MC, he's goal-less right now. Where else can he go?), we've been married 16 years (that old 4 yr cycle thing according to the MC). These are all contributing factors that made him vulnerable to falling into the affair, which is what WH says happen. He wasn't looking, has no real idea how it happened, it just happened. 

Right now I am leaning towards canceling the MC session. Just have my intermediary send him a simple email on Thursday morning saying it's been canceled. I really don't want to see him. Since I went no contact last Thursday, I feel like I can finally breath and not be panicky all the time. I don't want to expose myself all over again, sitting next to him, my husband, knowing all the time that when the time came he chose someone else over me. It's agonizing. 

And I don't want him to see me. I don't want him to ask me how I'm doing, play Mr. Concerned. He does't deserve to have a minute in my presence.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

I would cancel the MC if I were you. It is a waste of money so long as he is still in the A, and it sounds like the MC is looking for excuses to appease you. It should be you that is looking for the red flags and bringing them up to the MC and not the other way around. Sounds like the MC is supporting your WH's actions in a way, by lessening the effects of them through making them seem like normal things that happen due to his age, job, and recent circumstances/ life events (this doesn't sound good or normal to me and I can see the MC trying to downplay everything to make it seem not as bad as it truly is).

Good Luck.


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

Be smart. I totally understand the too fast... I was married 15 years when I had my Dday.

I am dealing with child custody now and what you may want to do because of the pain is not necessarily the best long term answer. Lifetime Alimony sounds very appealing.

When you go through Dday it is hard emotionally, physically etc... I lost 30 lbs unbelievably quick.

The best thing you can do right now is to work on yourself. Find a hobby, do things you want to do etc... Do the 180.

This may or may not be something your marriage survives. I really don't know. You need to prepare to move on and in doing so make yourself the best you can be.

Do you even think you want to get back with someone who treated you like this? That is for you to answer only. Everyone makes their own choice.

If not, be smart... Forcing the OW out, getting him at trouble at work could jeopardize your future. He loses his job, how does he pay alimony?

Step back, take some time, look at your life objectively and see what you really want. You are older so prepare to downsize.

I know this is hard to walk away from. I am very sorry you are here, but be prepared to do so. You may have to whether you want to or not. If you are in a car headed down Sh1t lane, at least you might want to try to get behind the wheel.

Good luck to you.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

As a professional counselor I would offer this advice. If you go to MC what are your goals? If you have clear goals in mind that will help you then go. If those goals are to restore the M, don't go there. He is not ready and in fact still wants the A. If some of your goals of MC is to mediate a separation, start the process for D, lay out your terms to a neutral party then MC may be warranted, not to rescue the M but to mediate other terms.

If your purpose for MC is to win him back I believe at this stage it would be a waste of time.

I would stay dark with your WH. Using the middle person is a great idea. Try to keep as much information away from him as possible. Go out. Try to fake having fun. When word gets back to him it may drive him nuts. 

Start getting your stuff in order. See an attorney and see what your options are. Get all your accounts together so you know the account numbers, what you owe, what you own, etc. 

Get a very good support group together for you. You will need to vent big time and you need folks for this.

There will be pressure from the family for you to do things. Some of what they may say will be true. Right now though your daughter may be putting too much hope on MC. If you want to R you will have to speak to him.

But for the time being I would tell everyone that you will not consider MC until your WH stops the A and has no contact with her, what-so-ever. And if he does that, then you will consider going to MC after two weeks of no contact.


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

My goal with MC was to restore the marriage. In the letter last week that was one of the conditions I gave him, that he continue IC and MC and to consider it a small price to pay towards what he owed me for what he had done.

If he's willing to keep going to MC, does that mean I have to also? Is it right of me to pull out of it when I made it a request to him that he's willing to honor?


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

My husband's career, after a long period (11 years) of private study and exam taking has progressed rapidly. And I only worked parttime or not all during our marriage at his request. It was easy for us as a couple when there was only one demanding, high stress career to deal with. He always said I was as responsible for his career success as he was. 

So, if I had to start over, I would really be behind the 8 ball as far as retirement savings goes. That is what I would really like the alimony to be for - just tuck it away so I won't have to work until I'm 85.

As far as him losing his job - I've been asking him for the last year to quit his job. He wasn't happy with the work, he wanted something different. We have plenty of money to live on while he figured things out. Now I know why he didn't want to leave - because the job was where he got to see her.

What I don't understand is how you can have this 'relationship' which is very limited. I've asked him, 'where did you find the time to do this?" They saw each other at work (not very much because a lot of his day is taken up in meetings), maybe for an hour or so after most coworkers left. He had to be home by 7pm (that was my rule so we could eat dinner together). We spent weekends together. How in the world did they have enough time to spend together to think they were 'in love' and that they 'love' each other? How can you love someone when you've never seen the true person. The true person that exists day in and day out, outside of the public work persona that we all bring into the workplace? How do you love someone if you've never devoted time to taking care of them? How can two smart, rational people think they 'are in love' in this type of situation? If they saw anyone else doing this, they would think they were crazy!


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

It is like when dating. He fell in love with you and you with him during the same types of situation. You probably decided (like most people do) that you wanted to marry and spend your days with someone that you truly never knew. You spent time on weekends together and called each other, but was it really quality time? Looking back, I was engaged for years, yet never really knew my wife as things always came up and got in the way. We spent time together but I never got to really know the true her (she hid it from me) and wonder if I had would I have wanted to pursue anything with her.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

baxter; said:


> And most of all, we are only 4 weeks into this hell (I say only but it feels like a lifetime). I, emotionally and mentally am not ready to take the step to divorce. I was left by my first husband because he 'didn't want to be married anymore' (this was right after deployment as a reservist in the first Gulf War). I do believe he was suffering from PTSD. 9 months after he left me, he wanted to come back. I refused because I was prideful and pissed off. I always regret that because I think I could have insisted on counseling and that we stood a really good chance of success. I really don't want to make that mistake again.
> 
> Lastly, I just want to say, in the past month, I've spent a lot of time on the internet and lurking on different forums dedicated to this subject. I just shake my head at some of the stories I read while my heart breaks. They truly don't know what they are doing and the hell they are unleashing on the innocent when they break their vows, do they? And most of them really don't care.


How many marriages does war cost?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

I can see your point - but when we were dating, we spent much more time together and it was true 'lifetime' type of moments. We travelled together, dealt with children issues, knew each other families. I wager 6 months into dating him, I had a better idea of his person and mentality than she does after 6 months of their stolen moments here and there.
I guess I'm just wondering how can you really love someone if you don't know them and why do they think they love each other?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

baxter said:


> My goal with MC was to restore the marriage. In the letter last week that was one of the conditions I gave him, that he continue IC and MC and to consider it a small price to pay towards what he owed me for what he had done.
> 
> If he's willing to keep going to MC, does that mean I have to also? Is it right of me to pull out of it when I made it a request to him that he's willing to honor?


He is dishonoring you and your marriage in the most basic way with his affair and his unwillingness to stop it. He says he loves her and can't stop seeing her. He works with her every day. If agreeing to MC means that he is willing to honor agreements, then it's only the very tiniest of agreements, since the big ones are going by the wayside now.

I would continue the NC. It's helping you and he has no intention of stopping his A, so contact with him will be needlessly painful, in my opinion.


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> How many marriages does war cost?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It cost me my first. No wait, I take that back. It played a part but I believe the death blow to that marriage was my pride and anger. I'd had just enough time (9 Months) to learn that I could make it on my own and that I would survive his walking out on his family. I think if my heart had just been a little softer and I had been a little older and wiser, I could have found it in myself to be more understanding and open and maybe the marriage could have been reconciled. Maybe not though, but either way, if I had tried I would not have the regrets that I have today.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

I understand you don't want to burn the last bridges, what you believe they are... I'm sorry, I can't encourage you anything but immediately filing for D, reject MC, expose him wide and open and go even more dark NC.
Tell the intermediary to refuse answering any questions, there's actually no need, lawyer will take care of the logistics, children are grown.
Let him go. Don't wait for him.

There's no magic bullets, quick fix, secret formula, it's this or simply let him to have his affair and string you along.

I'd choose self respect any day.


I'm so sorry friend.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

baxter said:


> We are both in IC and marriage counseling. He agreed to break off with the AP and it lasted only 5 days. He says he loves her.


He loves her? The affair lasted a lot longer than 5 days.



baxter said:


> He is back seeing her. Says she is an addiction and he just can't resist. Right now I am living in our home after fleeing the place on DDay (just moved back over the weekend) and he is out somewhere.


No Marriage Counselling while he is having an affair. Tell him no dice. That you will not tolerate an open marriage and either he is in or he's out. Don't let him call all the shots. Put your foot down.


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> He loves her? The affair lasted a lot longer than 5 days.
> 
> 
> 
> No Marriage Counselling while he is having an affair. Tell him no dice. That you will not tolerate an open marriage and either he is in or he's out. Don't let him call all the shots. Put your foot down.


Yeah, he said he would try to reconcile and break it off because he thought it was what he should do. Their break up only lasted 5 days and he was absolutely miserable about it and hateful towards me because he blamed me 'for not being able to see or be with her'.


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

Acabado said:


> I understand you don't want to burn the last bridges, what you believe they are... I'm sorry, I can't encourage you anything but immediately filing for D, reject MC, expose him wide and open and go even more dark NC.
> Tell the intermediary to refuse answering any questions, there's actually no need, lawyer will take care of the logistics, children are grown.
> Let him go. Don't wait for him.
> 
> ...


Why so drastic? Is there no hope? One thing that resonated with me was when we were in MC and WH read my letter about NC. The therapist said that if I was out, there was no affair. That it took 3 of us to make the affair and without me it wasn't an affair any longer, it was a relationship. Especially since their moments together were not all that frequent, isn't it possible that now there is no secrecy, no wife to talk about how to manage so she's not suspicious, now that she is all he has to occupy him and they have all the time in the world, that maybe he will come to his senses? I guess what I'm asking is, is it possible that the 'love' and all the excitement and intoxication and addiction (those last were two words he used to describe it) will not survive the light of day as a true relationship?

I really don't want to file for divorce, not until the 17 years are passed and mostly because I just can't get my mind about the subject.

I know once I asked if that was what he wanted - a divorce. He didn't answer but actually looked physically sick when I said the words.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

baxter said:


> Yeah, he said he would try to reconcile and break it off because he thought it was what he should do. Their break up only lasted 5 days and he was absolutely miserable about it and hateful towards me because he blamed me 'for not being able to see or be with her'.


You're doing the right things. Good for you. 

You say you want to save your marriage. But that can't even start to happen until he ends contact with the OW. That should be your one requirement before you start any discourse with him. You need to implement the 180 and not give him the time of day until it ends. 

Going to MC with him is not only a waste of time right now, but practically implies that you are willing to negotiate with him on that issue. Don't.

He needs to receive the full consequences of his actions. The most important one is for him to believe that he will lose his wife. He needs to understand what that feels like. 

Don't be afraid to start the divorce process now. You can always delay it if he ends contact and demonstrates remorse or until the 17 years passes. But right now, that's the kick in the head he needs to receive. If he continues the affair regardless, you'll be better off with the D anyway. I'm sorry.

One other thing. I don't know what state you're in, but if its one where infidelity can be a legal factor in divorce settlement; be careful. If you allow him to come back too soon, sleep with him, and find yourself in a false R; you could possibly negate the infidelity claim advantage, due to your attempted R. Talk to a divorce attorney ASAP.

Sorry you're here. Keep posting.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

baxter said:


> The therapist said that if I was out, there was no affair. That it took 3 of us to make the affair and without me it wasn't an affair any longer, it was a relationship.


I hate to be this blunt, but that's the biggest load of horse sh!t I've heard in a while. Sounds like nothing but a counselor who doesn't want to lose your business.

It's an affair, he's betrayed you; and it's still going on. That counselor can call it anything he wants, but you can't make a silk purse out of sow's ear. Unbelievable.


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

badmemory said:


> I hate to be this blunt, but that's the biggest load of horse sh!t I've heard in a while. Sounds like nothing but a counselor who doesn't want to lose your business.
> 
> It's an affair, he's betrayed you; and it's still going on. That counselor can call it anything he wants, but you can't make a silk purse out of sow's ear. Unbelievable.


I understand what you are saying and that was my first reaction too. But then when I thought about it kind of made sense. With the affair exposed, those things that made it more exciting - the limited/'stolen' time together, the secrecy, the urgency - are gone. And aren't those some of the things that make an affair so irresistible?


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

baxter said:


> I understand what you are saying and that was my first reaction too. But then when I thought about it kind of made sense. With the affair exposed, those things that made it more exciting - the limited/'stolen' time together, the secrecy, the urgency - are gone. And aren't those some of the things that make an affair so irresistible?


There is some truth in that and that's why you expose. But that's obviously not been enough. The affair is on going.The strategy of letting it play out after exposure versus being pro-active and giving him consequences - is a losing one, IMHO.


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

badmemory said:


> The strategy of letting it play out after exposure versus being pro-active and giving him consequences - is a losing one, IMHO.


I know. But it's only been a month! How can I get my head around going to bed, safe and secure in my marriage, to filing for divorce in a month! It's just too much. It's too soon. I still can't believe this is happening most of the time and then to take steps to end my marriage on top of that disbelief? It's almost unfathomable to me.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

baxter said:


> I know. But it's only been a month! How can I get my head around going to bed, safe and secure in my marriage, to filing for divorce in a month! It's just too much. It's too soon. I still can't believe this is happening most of the time and then to take steps to end my marriage on top of that disbelief? It's almost unfathomable to me.


Baxter,

As I mentioned, just because you start the divorce process doesn't mean that D is inevitable. But the longer you wait to shake him up, the more risk you take. Right now, he believes you'll be waiting in the wings if he decides to end it with her. You are plan B. The point is, don't allow him "believe" that.

A's are bad enough. But when the CS won't end contact, that's as bad as it gets. You can't be afraid of burning bridges. He's already blown up the bridge.


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

I just found out that he's rented an apartment starting 8/9. So at least he's not moving in with her (when her exBF vacates and she takes her apt back). And it's on the opposite side of town from her place, closer to his work.

I just don't know. I don't want a divorce. I want my life and my husband back.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Here's the thing: your hb knows you don't want a divorce and as such that he can bang his wh$re for a while, then he'll claim he really wants you and you'll welcome him back. Think long and hard about what this means to you long term. It will happen again. He's counting on your weakness.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

But it's never happened before. He's not a womanizer. I believe this is the first time. 

I really am beside myself. I am simply devastated. And it's hard to get my head around the fact that I have no control over getting what I want which is him and my life back.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

how do you know it's never happened before? You only know about this one because her bf forced his hand. In addition, his reaction was very telling about who he is now. The fact that he was nasty to you for keeping him from her and then openly seeing her again right in front of your nose suggests he's now a different man. It also suggests he knew you weren't going anywhere and he could get away with it. You are setting a precedent for what you will tolerate. People change, it happens, and your hb is no longer the man you knew. If you want to keep the marriage at any cost just agree to an open marriage and get yours. Sorry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

I'm pretty sure this is the first time. In hindsight, I can see there were signs that he was pulling away from me. I, unconsciously, tried behaviors to pull him back towards me, by instituting a 7 pm deadline to be home for dinner, buying season sporting event tickets and planning different activities. 

I guess I'm still trying to get my head around this different person. It's like an alien has taken over his body or he's possessed. That's what makes this so hard. He talks to me and says things and I just can hardly comprehend it. It's like he's speaking in a different language. 

I don't want to start divorce proceedings because of the length of marriage cutoff for alimony. And they date the divorce from the time it's been started I think.

I do have some financial disclosure material that the lawyer gave as a preliminary step for filing. Maybe I should give him that? It's a huge packet and it is very involved and extensive. Maybe that will make him think I'm moving ahead with a divorce. I've pretty much made up my mind that I will not be going to the mc session and will pretty much just drop out of his life for right now which has been the case since Thursday.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

The problem that you are facing is that if he feels that the marriage is over and talks to a lawyer to see about his options with the divorce, then he will also find out about the lifetime alimony and this could be his driving force to end the marriage as soon as possible. I know it is hard to start over, but I am sorry you are sounding like a gold digger. It sounds like you are staying only until you get the time in to get the money you want. A good lawyer will see this, call it for what it is, and push the D through for that reason solely. You not going to the MC could be reason enough.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

I can understand you wanting to stick it to him with the alimony. He deserves it.

Talk to an attorney. He'll tell you how to best handle it. Tell him that you want to start the D process so that your husband knows what you're doing, without jeopardizing your alimony stake. Delay, obfuscate, be calculating - do what you have to do. Most lawyers are very good at this kind of thing.


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

Squeakr said:


> The problem that you are facing is that if he feels that the marriage is over and talks to a lawyer to see about his options with the divorce, then he will also find out about the lifetime alimony and this could be his driving force to end the marriage as soon as possible. I know it is hard to start over, but I am sorry you are sounding like a gold digger. It sounds like you are staying only until you get the time in to get the money you want. A good lawyer will see this, call it for what it is, and push the D through for that reason solely. You not going to the MC could be reason enough.


I know and I'm sorry it's coming across like that. It is definitely not my intention. I would rather this not be happening at all but I have to try and do what's best for me in the long run if the marriage is over. 

So should I just say the heck with it and file? What if the divorce gets pushed through and it isn't the right thing to do? I have my first marriage as an example and I don't want to make that same mistake again. I told a friend that I don't have to make any decisions right now so I was just going to take my time and not do anything rash. I think I actually said I wouldn't do anything until the first of the year. I just don't think I can do that this soon. It's only been a month. 
Ultimately (and I know this is going to cause some headshaking) but I just keep thinking if this is just some temporary mid life craziness and he comes to his senses, will I have wanted to be the type of person who would walk away? I mean, that scenario does happen sometimes, doesn't it?
I told him I would always be there for him and I took that very seriously. I value loyalty and fidelity. And I believe that people can make mistakes and they can change and learn from those mistakes.


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

badmemory said:


> I can understand you wanting to stick it to him with the alimony. He deserves it.
> 
> Talk to an attorney. He'll tell you how to best handle it. Tell him that you want to start the D process so that your husband knows what you're doing, without jeopardizing your alimony stake. Delay, obfuscate, be calculating - do what you have to do. Most lawyers are very good at this kind of thing.


Yeah, his mother even told me to take every penny.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

It's not gold digging in any sense of the word to me. It's called putting in 16 years of faithful marriage to have your life's rug pulled out from under you. And I've been divorced twice, so I know this. my last marriage lasted 19 years. (She was a gold digger, but that's another story.)

Bax, I understand your hesitation, and your desire to get him and your life back. However, you must come, eventually, to the realization that the marraige you had is gone. It's forever different and both of you are forever changed. You will come to accept that at some point. Meanwhile, please take steps to protect yourself. Waiting to get divorced for the alimony issue I understand. But there are other things you can do as well. Think about how your family, finances, health insurance and all those nitnoid things we take for granted are handled today. Those will change, and perhaps should change regardless of what you do. 

I agree with not going to MC at this juncture. It's too soon, the A isn't over, and he's deep in the "fog" as it's called here as a general term. He sees her as exciting and you as dull. I know of which I speak, having been there myself. I've also been cheated on in all my LTRs, so I know that pain. Thrice in my life I've felt truly in love, and three times I was cheated on. And all three of those women cheated on me with a married man! So yes, I understand the pain and all the other emotions swimming in your head. 

Divorces are not considered in effect until the judge signs the decree. Even then, you may have to go back to court to enforce the decree. I've been through this. Not sure if your state would be any different but that's what I know from our state legal system and my (pretty good) attorney. 

Keep posting, as people here care about you. These are all opinions; you know best what fits your situation. But just give each post some consideration, apply any glimpse of wisdom you might glean from them, and start planning two routes. One where you stay, one where you go. Staying is a comfortable thing, as that life is familiar and (used to be) secure. Leaving is a whole unknown and can be very scary. But at this point you really ONLY have those two choices. 

I would work the financial package, and at some point of your choosing hand it to WH. Be careful of your timing as WH could also lawyer up and get the alimony figured out. That said, there are ways to contest the divorce such that it's not final until next year. My last one took two years! And I filed in her state specifically because there's no waiting period. 

Good luck, God bless. We're on your side.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

doubletrouble said:


> It's not gold digging in any sense of the word to me. It's called putting in 16 years of faithful marriage to have your life's rug pulled out from under you. And I've been divorced twice, so I know this. my last marriage lasted 19 years. (She was a gold digger, but that's another story.)
> 
> Bax, I understand your hesitation, and your desire to get him and your life back. However, you must come, eventually, to the realization that the marraige you had is gone. It's forever different and both of you are forever changed. You will come to accept that at some point. Meanwhile, please take steps to protect yourself. Waiting to get divorced for the alimony issue I understand. But there are other things you can do as well. Think about how your family, finances, health insurance and all those nitnoid things we take for granted are handled today. Those will change, and perhaps should change regardless of what you do.
> 
> ...


I agree with with everything you're saying double, but I would suggest to you OP, that while it's fine to be open to the possibility of R; your mindset should be you're heading toward D unless or until, your CS gives you reasons to "reconsider". 

Until that happens, starting with ending contact, the R option should be your plan B; just like you're his.


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

badmemory said:


> I agree with with everything you're saying double, but I would suggest to you OP, that while it's fine to be open to the possibility of R; your mindset should be you're heading toward D unless or until, your CS gives you reasons to "reconsider".
> 
> Until that happens, starting with ending contact, the R option should be your plan B; just like you're his.


What does OP mean?


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

baxter said:


> What does OP mean?


Original poster. You.


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

badmemory said:


> Original poster. You.


Thanks. I feel like I running on two brain cells lately and the two of them are not communicating.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

doubletrouble said:


> It's not gold digging in any sense of the word to me. It's called putting in 16 years of faithful marriage to have your life's rug pulled out from under you.



I can agree with this sentiment, but if you are going to remain married in name only (as you aren't living together nor working on a marriage) for another year only to get more money in a divorce, then at that point it is gold digging.

I am sorry you have to put up with this, and if you really love him (and he loves you) and both are willing to work on and want to remain married, then you need to work on it and not shut down and tune out.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

baxter said:


> Thanks. I feel like I running on two brain cells lately and the two of them are not communicating.


And that my dear is part of the problem. You are devastated. You can't think straight. We have been there. Some of us know exactly what you want. You can't get it as long as your WS is having an A. His moving into an apartment will only make things worse. Typically separation makes things worse. He has clearly stated that he loves her, wants to continue the A and you are a hinderance to him and his stated goals. 

You want your M and your husband. Right now you don't have either.

Go see an attorney. At least start the process for D by getting all the paperwork your attorney needs.

Get the 180 and start doing it.

Believe us, we have your best interest in mind. Right now you have to take care of yourself.

Don't plead with him. Don't beg him. Disengage. Get your affairs in order.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

Squeakr said:


> I can agree with this sentiment, but if you are going to remain married in name only (as you aren't living together nor working on a marriage) for another year only to get more money in a divorce, then at that point it is gold digging.


Agreed, to a point. But divorce is a business deal. Marriage no longer has anything to do with it. It's all business, and businesses work off the bottom line. 

OP, the bottom line is you do what you need to do, what you think is best in your situation. My opinion is no better or worse than anyone else's here, but they all come from valid, life experiences that (hopefully) have granted us some wisdom. It's your life, you're the one who's put the time and energy into all this, and you're the one who has to, ultimately, live with the decisions made. 

I pray for wisdom for you and healing for your heart.


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## scatty (Mar 15, 2013)

In my opinion, your MC is giving you horrible advice and is giving him reasons to cheat. I think most MCs should be called divorce counselors anyway.


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

Thorburn said:


> Don't plead with him. Don't beg him. Disengage. Get your affairs in order.


I have disengaged. We've had no contact and I have a firewall of an intermediary. We have a MC session this Thursday which was the initial question for me - should I cancel or should I go? I waffle back and forth. I should go because then at least I get to see him and we are still communicating. I should cancel because that dirty cheating POS adulterer chose someone rather than his wife who stood by him for almost 19 years. He doesn't deserve to spend a second in my presence. 

I don't know what to do. I am just sick over this. I feel like if someone asked me where it hurt, I should be able to point and say, "here and here and here". It is so intense it feels physical. 

Can anyone answer me - are there cases where a seemingly faithful and loyal spouse just loses it and goes off the rails and then eventually gains their true self back and return to their marriage?


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

baxter said:


> I have disengaged. We've had no contact and I have a firewall of an intermediary. We have a MC session this Thursday which was the initial question for me - should I cancel or should I go? I waffle back and forth. I should go because then at least I get to see him and we are still communicating. * I should cancel because that dirty cheating POS adulterer chose someone rather than his wife who stood by him for almost 19 years. He doesn't deserve to spend a second in my presence. *
> 
> I don't know what to do. I am just sick over this. I feel like if someone asked me where it hurt, I should be able to point and say, "here and here and here". It is so intense it feels physical.
> 
> Can anyone answer me - *are there cases where a seemingly faithful and loyal spouse just loses it and goes off the rails and then eventually gains their true self back and return to their marriage?*


To your choice, I'll go with " he doesn't deserve to spend a second in my presence" for $500.

To your question. Oh yes, WS's return all the time; that's not unusual. But what your husband has demonstrated *IS* his true self. You're infatuated with the notion of what you thought he was. That person no longer exists.

If you are able to R with him, you'll have to start a new marriage, and you'll never view him in the same way. You'll have to create new memories. And believe it or not, that's where the hard part starts. 

So, be careful what you wish for.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

baxter said:


> Can anyone answer me - are there cases where a seemingly faithful and loyal spouse just loses it and goes off the rails and then eventually gains their true self back and return to their marriage?


Yes, it can happen. And in fact be more solid afterwards. But the lesson aint free. BOTH pay for it.

Sometimes the price is too high. It's not a game; it's serious, heart- and soul-wrenching painful lesson learning. Only you and he will be able to know if you can survive the walk, if you are even willing. And although I haven't really given my opinion on THAT yet, it sounds like there are a LOT of potholes in your road.


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

I cannot believe this is happening. I think I might just have to file for divorce. I don't understand this new world I'm living in.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

baxter said:


> I cannot believe this is happening. I think I might just have to file for divorce. I don't understand this new world I'm living in.


Baxter,

I'm not trying to be a hard a$$, honestly. I'm in R with my wife and if you'll read my original thread, you may wonder how I could have even thought about doing it. Read Thorburn's thread. Same thing.

So, I'm not pro divorce. But I believe in strong consequences for the CS. There is a methodology to this. If you'll follow the advice, I sincerely believe this will give you the best outcome; whether you eventually D or R.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

baxter said:


> We have a MC session this Thursday which was the initial question for me - should I cancel or should I go?


 You should cancel, no question about it. The MC that you are using is bad for your marraige and bad for you. To tell you that now that you are out, it is no longer an affair and is instead now a relationship, did nothing but validate to your husband that he is no longer cheating when he bangs his affair partner. By saying this, the MC put your husband's affair partner on equal moral footing with you; the MC basically said that being his wife means nothing as there is no longer a marraige. Tell your MC that since they are saying that because you are out, it is no longer an affair but a relationship, that you see no need to see a "marriage" counselor for a marraige that the MC says no longer exists.


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

TRy said:


> You should cancel, no question about it. The MC that you are using is bad for your marraige and bad for you. To tell you that now that you are out, it is no longer an affair and is instead now a relationship, did nothing but validate to your husband that he is no longer cheating when he bangs the other woman (OW). By saying this, the MC put you husbands affair partner on equal moral footing with you; the MC basically said that being his wife means nothing. How will such talk help you or your marraige? Tell your MC that since the MC says that because you are out, it is no longer an affair but a relationship, that you see no need to see a marriage counselor for a marraige that the MC says no longer exists.


Our MC is very pro-marriage. I don't think that was what he was going for. I think it was more that the 'fun' stuff of the affair that made it so intoxicating was provided because of the secrecy so he could keep it from me. Once I am out of the equation, all the stuff that made the A so intoxicating is gone.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

baxter said:


> Our MC is very pro-marriage. I don't think that was what he was going for. I think it was more that the 'fun' stuff of the affair that made it so intoxicating was provided because of the secrecy so he could keep it from me. Once I am out of the equation, all the stuff that made the A so intoxicating is gone.


 Notice that you said the same thing while still calling it an affair? The MC could have said the same thing you just said instead of discounting that it is an affair and validating it by calling it a relationship. Words matter.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

MC, no matter the kind is a complete waste now nad to be honest attending this while your husband is blatantly dating another woman who he's "addicted" oput you in a very weak and pathetic light.
If your husband ever snap out of this he will be proud you were able to stand up with class and dignity.

Why in the world are you NC and at the same time going to MC?
It's contradictory, the reasons you have to stay NC (even using that firewall) are the same which support cancelling this sh1t.
As I said you actually have no reasons to stay in contact at all, be a complete ghost for him.
BTW. I hope you are not attached to the couch, get out the house like yesterday: gym, friends, spa, restaurants, live music, support...


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

baxter - I'm so sorry your going through this... from what you write and the feelings your words portray this betrayal has been huge and devastating for you.

I also believe it is pointless to go to MC. You can't even attempt to save your marriage while he is dating/having sex with another woman. If he was going NC and committed to your marriage I would 100% encourage couple counselling...but not now...not in this situation. 

As you say you are now in NC. Even if you don't start a D yet it would be good for him to know you are moving forward and making plans for YOUR OWN future. 

Has he moved all his 'stuff' out. Maybe box it up and have it sent ??? to his new place... all through your middle person of course.... really I'm just suggesting that you show him you are loving yourself enough to not put up with his cr*ppy behaviour and your moving onwards and upwards.

Treat yourself as you would your nearest and dearest best friend/sister etc... What would you tell her to do right now?


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## calmwinds (Dec 10, 2012)

Can anyone answer me - are there cases where a seemingly faithful and loyal spouse just loses it and goes off the rails and then eventually gains their true self back and return to their marriage?[/QUOTE]

Yes...sort of. But it takes a lot of work by BOTH of you. WS can turn around, however, there is no returning to the marriage. Everything you had together is gone. If your H comes back and wants to work on R, it will be a different marriage. 

You are only a month since Dday. It took my FWH three months to finally put POSOW down. He would go NC, she would play the suicidal card, he would answer her calls, go NC, she would play the suicidal card...Finally, I told him if he needed or wanted her in his life in ANY capacity then I didn't want or need him in mine, and it wasn't his job to fix her or her problems with her H. He stayed in the fog another three months, out of the A, but angry with me for it. Isolated himself from his friends and family completely. Stopped carrying a phone at all. An incident in January with his youngest son kissing another girl and coming to him for advice brought him out of the fog because the advice he gave his son boomeranged into his own face. Since then he has been totally committed to R, and to me. 
So it is possible. Even if your H does choose R, it's HARD! There are boogiewomen everywhere (triggers). Even if your WH puts his AP down and stays home, he won't necessarily be happy about it for awhile. I've heard it isn't wise to even try to make a decision the first 90 days after Dday. TBH, I couldn't decide on ANYTHING the first 90 days if my life had depended on it. 
Good luck.


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

So, I file for divorce. Or I don't and bide my time. Neither sounds appealing.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

If you don't file at least learn to detach and move on. Really grieve the marriage, the man you believed he was and out it to rest.
If you want to stay married for financial reasons I wouldn't judge you. You invested a lot in this and is just fair to reap that work. But be smart and detach from him. There's no marriage left to save.

Your pain is palpable, I can relate.
Continued healing.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

It does happen that WS's 'snap out of it' and want to re-enter the marriage. But it also happens that they don't.

You can't predict anything about his behavior right now other than that he is now a liar and that you can't trust him.

In my opinion, a good MC would not agree to counseling if one of the spouses was actively in an affair. What this session will do is provide your WH a platform to 'let you down as easily as possible.' He can use it to cement the current reality and to enlist the MC as an accomplice in his quest to assuage his guilt regarding you. It will help him, but not you.


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

Thank you everyone for your kind words. I've been lurking here for the last month so I know you all have to go over and over the same stuff everytime someone new comes on and posts 'I can't believe what just happened' or something similar. 

I guess ultimately what I keep thinking over and over in my head is not so much that he had the affair but once it was outed and he had to make a choice, he looked at me, his best friend for 19 years and his faithful wife who adored him for 16 years and still chose her. That is like a dagger in the heart. There really are no words to describe it. I have felt like I am dying at times. 

I'm going to cancel the MC. I don't want to make anything easy for him, let him play the nice guy and act like he's concerned with me. I'm going to call my lawyer tomorrow and see if I can get an appointment on Thursday. I'm going to talk to her about the timeframes and what we can do in the meantime. Maybe I will put that preliminary financial paperwork in the mail addressed to him at work. He should get it by Thursday.


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> In my opinion, a good MC would not agree to counseling if one of the spouses was actively in an affair. What this session will do is provide your WH a platform to 'let you down as easily as possible.' He can use it to cement the current reality and to enlist the MC as an accomplice in his quest to assuage his guilt regarding you. It will help him, but not you.


Our MC actually said that his work was done when he heard that WH had taken up with the POS again. Said there was no point in any counseling if there was another person. He only agreed to continue because I asked him to. 

I think you are right though - it's a method to help him NOT ME. I've had more benefit from not being in contact with him since Thursday than anything else.


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

I live in FL and there have been attempts to change the timeframes for alimony. Last year it almost passed and would have increased the 17 years to something like 21. So who knows if the law will still be in effect come April 2014. I probably shouldn't count on it. But FL law does state:
_The court may consider the adultery of either spouse and the circumstances thereof in determining the amount of alimony, if any, to be awarded._

So maybe that can be a weapon in my arsenal.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

baxter said:


> I live in FL and there have been attempts to change the timeframes for alimony. Last year it almost passed and would have increased the 17 years to something like 21. So who knows if the law will still be in effect come April 2014. I probably shouldn't count on it. But FL law does state:
> _The court may consider the adultery of either spouse and the circumstances thereof in determining the amount of alimony, if any, to be awarded._
> 
> So maybe that can be a weapon in my arsenal.


Yeah, talk to a lawyer, learn the potential scenarios.
Maybe it would be a good idea to have evidence at hand.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

baxter said:


> I live in FL and there have been attempts to change the timeframes for alimony. Last year it almost passed and would have increased the 17 years to something like 21. So who knows if the law will still be in effect come April 2014. I probably shouldn't count on it. But FL law does state:
> _The court may consider the adultery of either spouse and the circumstances thereof in determining the amount of alimony, if any, to be awarded._
> 
> So maybe that can be a weapon in my arsenal.


Right up until I found out you were in Florida I was all for you holding out in the divorce, but now I'm not so sure. Gov. Scott vetoed the bill this time because it was retroactive, and the sponsors already said they'd take that out next year. If he had signed it it would have been effective July 1, I suspect they'll have the same language in the bill next year. 

I don't think there's any point to waiting.


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

Nucking Futs said:


> Right up until I found out you were in Florida I was all for you holding out in the divorce, but now I'm not so sure. Gov. Scott vetoed the bill this time because it was retroactive, and the sponsors already said they'd take that out next year. If he had signed it it would have been effective July 1, I suspect they'll have the same language in the bill next year.
> 
> I don't think there's any point to waiting.


I just googled and read some news reports and I think you might be right. In fact, in might be in my benefit to file sooner rather than later. I'm going to call my lawyer and see if I can get an appointment for Thursday and I will definitely bring this up to her.

On a side note, it completely breaks my heart when I log in and see that the CWI forum has the highest number of viewer.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

There aren't many things that can compete for pure, agonizing pain than being a victim of infidelity. The death of a child might be the only thing that eclipses it. I've had major upheaval in my life, both my father and closest friend dying, and nothing compares to my wife leaving me for someone else.

Do whatever it takes to get yourself through this. You have to sleep and manage your anxiety. Don't rule out getting a medication, at least in the short term if it gets to be too much. Exercise, stay busy, and socialize, force yourself if you have to.


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

I appreciate all the support and kind words and advice. Today I am going to put the financial affidavit in the mail to his work address. Tomorrow I will have my intermediary email him that the MC session is canceled. Hopefully the two things on the same day will impress him with my seriousness. 

He has been very open about the affair to me and family. BUT...there is no real hard evidence. Any emails that mention the affair do not mention his AP's name. I need some solid proof that I can submit to their HR dept that the two of them are involved. They've already been called in once to answer questions but both of them denied everything and HR made a token reassignment for her and let everything slide. Would it worthwhile to hire a PI to try to get pictures? Anyone have any idea of the expense that would entail? There is also the fact that FL right now reads that adultery can be taken into account when figuring alimony.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I live in Fl as well and I agree that you may be better off to file now. This affair probably won't last because there's no real future with OW, so it's entirely possible that he'll try to come back eventually. You need to get him out out your life for a while and think long and hard about whether you really want him back after the open disrespect he's shown you. You'd be entering a relationship with a stranger, not the man you knew. The possibility of him doing something like this again is very high. Also, when he sees you're serious about divorcing him he may panic and try to come back, claiming the affair is over. This will be phony so don't fall for it; the affair will continue. If he was willing to end it he would have already done so. Once the divorce is done you can always take another look at things if that's what you both want. Good luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

baxter said:


> I have disengaged. We've had no contact and I have a firewall of an intermediary. We have a MC session this Thursday which was the initial question for me - should I cancel or should I go? I waffle back and forth. I should go because then at least I get to see him and we are still communicating. I should cancel because that dirty cheating POS adulterer chose someone rather than his wife who stood by him for almost 19 years. He doesn't deserve to spend a second in my presence.
> 
> I don't know what to do. I am just sick over this. I feel like if someone asked me where it hurt, I should be able to point and say, "here and here and here". It is so intense it feels physical.
> 
> Can anyone answer me - are there cases where a seemingly faithful and loyal spouse just loses it and goes off the rails and then eventually gains their true self back and return to their marriage?


My wife did horrible things to me and right now she does seem to have finally come to her senses. I believe she has confessed everything and repented. I am hopeful that my wife has done what you are hoping will happen.

*BUT!!!!!!* Stop hoping for him to turn. I went to a pastor who was recommended to me, I started to attend his church, and went to him for counseling and he told me to D my wife. I did not expect this from a conservative evangelical pastor. Long story but the pastor turned on me after meeting my wife and believed her lies, then he lied to her and her family about what I said and did. It became almost unbelievable what permament damage this evil man did in my relationships with my wife's family, who were a huge support to me. The advice he gave me to write a letter to my wife telling her I am D'ing her out of love and actually starting the process for D with a good attorney was spot on and really the only good that came of gettng to know this pastor, because everything else he did or said, was just evil. 

Your husband is out there, still wants the A. Start the process for D and be serious about it. If things do not change you are headed there anyway. At any point in the process you can stop the D, but right now you need to prepare.

Go to MC. Go. But I fear you are walking into a big trap. You are pinning your hopes on the MC to turn your husband around or that something will be said that will change things or that the MC will pull out his/her magic wand and everything will be back to the way you want them. Dear, you have no clue to how you want things. You have suffered a serious injury and I mean serious. You are severly wounded and to go into this setting under these circumstances will only add to your injury. 

I would make it clear to him. Stop the A and then maybe I will consider MC, but MC will be on my terms. Until that time I am filing for D.


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## Rugs (Apr 12, 2013)

Wait until April 2014. By then you will want a divorce.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

baxter said:


> I appreciate all the support and kind words and advice. Today I am going to put the financial affidavit in the mail to his work address. Tomorrow I will have my intermediary email him that the MC session is canceled. Hopefully the two things on the same day will impress him with my seriousness.
> 
> He has been very open about the affair to me and family. BUT...there is no real hard evidence. Any emails that mention the affair do not mention his AP's name. I need some solid proof that I can submit to their HR dept that the two of them are involved. They've already been called in once to answer questions but both of them denied everything and HR made a token reassignment for her and let everything slide. Would it worthwhile to hire a PI to try to get pictures? Anyone have any idea of the expense that would entail? There is also the fact that FL right now reads that adultery can be taken into account when figuring alimony.


Here in Pennsylvania we are a no-fault D state. An A has very little impact in a D unless you go fault, which can be done here, but it is very expensive and not common. Having said that, infidelity can affect "support" during the time you are in the process of D. I could have and would have fought to not pay her a dime during the D proceedings and may have won due to her A's. Alimoney is another animal and is what the spouse gets after the D is final. Here in PA typically, alimoney is not long term, the courts want the other spouse to become self supporting. My wife would have lost quite a bit in the short run and end run.

Educate yourself on your state's laws on D and alimoney and spousal support. It is somewhat complicated at first but once you wrap your head around what is allowed you will start to feel empowered. 

Also, learn what your options are in D. The cheapest way to go here in PA is no fault and hire a mediator. If you can simply come to terms on your own it will be cheaper. If there are disputes that can't be settled then add more laywer fees. Going to mediation with a "Master" here in PA adds more cost and then if you can't settle, the next option is going in front of a judge, = even more money. I don't know how things go in Florida but educate yourself and plan for the worst. Then you will be prepared for the worst.

Many folks (particularly women) here in PA feel that they will get long term alimoney and be basically taken care of by their husbands. It does not go that way typically. In almost all D's both parties lose significant financial security and have to live below the way they have in the past. Prepare for that as well.

Be nice now. Watch what you say to family and friends about your husband. Be firm but nice.


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

Thorburn said:


> Here in Pennsylvania we are a no-fault D state. An A has very little impact in a D unless you go fault, which can be done here, but it is very expensive and not common. Having said that, infidelity can affect "support" during the time you are in the process of D. I could have and would have fought to not pay her a dime during the D proceedings and may have won due to her A's. Alimoney is another animal and is what the spouse gets after the D is final. Here in PA typically, alimoney is not long term, the courts want the other spouse to become self supporting. My wife would have lost quite a bit in the short run and end run.
> 
> Educate yourself on your state's laws on D and alimoney and spousal support. It is somewhat complicated at first but once you wrap your head around what is allowed you will start to feel empowered.
> 
> ...


Right now FL has a statement in their law:
_The court may consider the adultery of either spouse and the circumstances thereof in determining the amount of alimony, if any, to be awarded._

That might be written out of the new law. Florida does have lifetime alimony available for marriages over 17 years, it does say that judges have discretion. I'm 50 years old. I don't need a lifetime. I just need some years so that I can save for retirement.


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

maincourse99 said:


> There aren't many things that can compete for pure, agonizing pain than being a victim of infidelity. The death of a child might be the only thing that eclipses it. I've had major upheaval in my life, both my father and closest friend dying, and nothing compares to my wife leaving me for someone else.
> 
> Do whatever it takes to get yourself through this. You have to sleep and manage your anxiety. Don't rule out getting a medication, at least in the short term if it gets to be too much. Exercise, stay busy, and socialize, force yourself if you have to.


My father died in 2009 and that was nothing compared to this. I can't believe it hurts so much and is so mind altering. I thought I was mentally ill. 

I am on sleep meds and ADs now. Just started taking both and my appetite is coming back so I am feeling better.

Thanks for the kind words.

It's kind of hit home all the people who've been saying, "Your marriage is over". I resisted. I didn't want to hear those words. I figured it out. On the day I was told, they had been in this affair for 135 days. He turned down my request for a R after 16 years of marriage, 19 years of togetherness because of 135 days of stolen hours here and there and sex. That was a real slap in the face to me. It is true. My marriage is over. I realize that now and I'm going to take what steps I need to take.

I sent him the financial affidavit to his office this morning. I will have the intermediary email him tomorrow afternoon that the MC is canceled. I will talk to my lawyer hopefully tomorrow. 

Thanks for all the support. I really needed it.


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

Has anyone used a PI firm to gather evidence? Or just try to compile it on your own?


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

If he is goalless then why no give him a new goal of not loosing you.

One strategy might be to turn yourself into the best you that you can be, and if you still do D, then you'll already be at the top of your game.

1. Get exercising 
2. New wardrobe
3. New car
4. Cut contact to the minimum with him, but when he does see you , be looking sharp and be looking confident and happy.
5. Start getting out socially.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Baxter,

Since for now at least, you are in a "at fault" state, your choice of an attorney is critical. You'll need a good one.

A couple of things you'll want to bring up with him:

- Go over what could happen if your husband comes back - even temporarily, in terms of negating the "at fault" for infidelity. After you "attempt" to reconcile, you lose that legal advantage. Ask him for the details around that.

- Ask him for his advice on a PI. He might be able to set one up for you; and he might tell you it would be the best investment you ever made.

Glad to see you getting things going. Good luck to you.


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

Shaggy said:


> If he is goalless then why no give him a new goal of not loosing you.
> 
> One strategy might be to turn yourself into the best you that you can be, and if you still do D, then you'll already be at the top of your game.
> 
> ...


I've started this. Not so much the going out - just to gf's houses for chats. I feel like a sad sack and I really don't want to be out in public. Just not interested in it or have the energ for it. New wardrobe? Well, thanks to the 'infidelity diet' I'm now wearing things I had in the closet that I haven't worn in years. 

NEW CAR? That's a good one. I live 2 blocks from where I work and never hardly drive. The car I have is one he surprise me with Valentine's Day 2007. Bought it, exchanged my old car for it and when I left work, Wow! There it was. *sigh*


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

baxter said:


> I've started this. Not so much the going out - just to gf's houses for chats. I feel like a sad sack and I really don't want to be out in public. Just not interested in it or have the energ for it. New wardrobe? Well, thanks to the 'infidelity diet' I'm now wearing things I had in the closet that I haven't worn in years.
> 
> *NEW CAR? That's a good one. I live 2 blocks from where I work and never hardly drive. The car I have is one he surprise me with Valentine's Day 2007. Bought it, exchanged my old car for it and when I left work, Wow! There it was. *sigh**




Well, that is a perfect reason to trade the car in for a brand new one in my book!


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

baxter said:


> I have disengaged. We've had no contact and I have a firewall of an intermediary. We have a MC session this Thursday which was the initial question for me - should I cancel or should I go? I waffle back and forth. I should go because then at least I get to see him and we are still communicating. I should cancel because that dirty cheating POS adulterer chose someone rather than his wife who stood by him for almost 19 years. He doesn't deserve to spend a second in my presence.
> 
> I don't know what to do. I am just sick over this. I feel like if someone asked me where it hurt, I should be able to point and say, "here and here and here". It is so intense it feels physical.
> 
> Can anyone answer me - are there cases where a seemingly faithful and loyal spouse just loses it and goes off the rails and then eventually gains their true self back and return to their marriage?


Yes, this happens.

I think you should go to the MC, and be very distant and cold toward your H. You can simply say, "there is no marriage to fix as long as he is seeing another woman. Case closed. Until that happens, there isn't anything to discuss." 

Then BE QUIET - let the MC and your H talk. When they talk, you learn. Don't let either of them engage you unless it involves your H ending his affair. Keep going back to that. Over and over. Engage in nothing else.

See, by showing up, you leave the door open for R, you don't tip off that you have given up and are seeking D. But you aren't giving an inch.

Make sense?


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

Gabriel said:


> Yes, this happens.
> 
> See, by showing up, you leave the door open for R, you don't tip off that you have given up and are seeking D. But you aren't giving an inch.
> 
> Make sense?


It does make sense. But then everything I think makes sense until it doesn't. 

I already canceled the appointment. My intermediary will email him tomorrow about the cancellation. While your scenario makes sense, I feel that me sitting there, next to him, while he is still seeing her, making a mockery of our marriage and saying he has no intention of working on it, will just be too painful. Even the MC didn't want to schedule it but only did so because I asked him to.


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

I talked to my oldest son last night (28 yrs old). He cannot believe this is happening, that it is so out of character for his stepfather. He was very upset, crying. He begged me to just hold tight, not do anything permanent or drastic and see if this is something that will blow over. He said that I have to weigh the first great 18 years against this one episode and is it worth giving up my marriage if WH decides he made a mistake and wants to reconcile. 

I am so confused.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

baxter said:


> I talked to my oldest son last night (28 yrs old). He cannot believe this is happening, that it is so out of character for his stepfather. He was very upset, crying. He begged me to just hold tight, not do anything permanent or drastic and see if this is something that will blow over. He said that I have to weigh the first great 18 years against this one episode and is it worth giving up my marriage if WH decides he made a mistake and wants to reconcile.
> 
> I am so confused.


I would not let your son dictate your decisions. He has no life experience with anything like this and is not the one that has to live with this, so he really doesn't get to have an opinion. He's a grown man living his own life. Just the fact that he cried tells me he's in panic mode and not thinking clearly himself, and no good judgment ever came from panic mode. So what if it does blow over? Like others have already pointed out the marriage is dead and the man you knew is gone. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

I also talked to my MIL this morning. She talked to WH on Monday, his first night in the hotel. He told her that he has no friends, he can't even talk to his best friend (me), that people avoid him at work, that he and his little POS can't be together much because they can't be seen in public, and that he has no intention of filing for divorce. 

It's like a habit or a knee jerk reaction. If my husband is hurting, my first instinct is to comfort him. Perverse, huh, that I want to do that. The idea of him alone in a hotel just rips me up. But as I told him mother, these are the consequences of his actions. None of this is happening to him in a vacuum, it is all the direct result of his actions.


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

Dear baxter,

While I agree that, given your WH's continuing infidelity, you have every right to file for divorce, I don't believe that this necessarily means that you should file just yet or that his affair means the end of your marriage.

If you still want to save your marriage, you need to have a plan as to how you are going to do it. There are many sources of information on the web that you may find helpful. Some are:

How to Save Your Marriage -- Avoid These Harmful Behaviors

Saving Your Marriage—Even If You’re Doing It Alone « MarriageSherpa

http://ezinearticles.com/?How-Do-I-Get-My-Husband-Back?&id=1393725

IMO, given your situation, I think the following may be the most helpful place to start:

How I Saved My Marriage

There are many more and they all say pretty much the same thing, namely, that you have to (1) consistently present yourself to your husband as an attractive, self-confident, capable woman, (2) give him enough time to recognize the mistake he has made and want to come back to you, neither fawning over him or making him feel excluded from your life and (3) when he does come back to you, work out a plan for how you are going to rebuild love and trust.

This doesn't mean giving him a free pass but it does mean waiting until he comes back and asks for forgiveness (or at least expresses a strong desire to work things out) before dropping the hammer on him, so to speak.

Understand that this will take a lot of effort on your part and probably a lot of time, with starts and stops, before it is over (one way or another). You should decide if this is what you really want or if you would be better off without him, in which case filing for divorce would be the appropriate action.

There are also things you must avoid doing if you really want to save your marriage, and getting involved with another person is at the top of the list, not because it will not make your husband want you back (it very likely may) but because it will quench the desire in you to save your marriage and divert your time and energy from the task at hand (saving your marriage).

You will get a lot of advice on TAM/CWI as to what to do but, in the end, it is up to you to decide what you want and to figure out how to go about it. Be careful about what advice you listen to because many people here are hurting from their own bad experiences which may bear little relationship to yours.

Again, there is ample information on the web to help you and you can also consult professional counselors, spiritual advisors and family members for help.

This is an extremely trying time for you and, whatever you do, you have many difficult days ahead. If you have a religious foundation, now would be the time to draw on it. Even if you don't, prayer can help, as God loves us all. If you do pray, may I suggest that you ask for wisdom and strength, and then listen quietly for the answer. You may be surprised how effective this can be.

I wish you the best.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

baxter said:


> I also talked to my MIL this morning. She talked to WH on Monday, his first night in the hotel. He told her that he has no friends, he can't even talk to his best friend (me), that people avoid him at work, that he and his little POS can't be together much because they can't be seen in public, and that he has no intention of filing for divorce.
> 
> It's like a habit or a knee jerk reaction. If my husband is hurting, my first instinct is to comfort him. Perverse, huh, that I want to do that. The idea of him alone in a hotel just rips me up. But as I told him mother, these are the consequences of his actions. None of this is happening to him in a vacuum, it is all the direct result of his actions.


Good, the system is working.

I'd let him know there will be no more MC and no more talk of R until the OW is gone from his life. Gone. When that happens he can see if you are still around, but her being gone is the one thing that is a show stopper. 

Then you need to go dark, like you have.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

baxter said:


> Our 17th anniversary will be April 2014. If I file before then, in our state, I will only be eligible for durational alimony. After 17 years, I can qualify for lifetime alimony. So I really want to put off any divorce paperwork until then. Of course, that is 9 months away. An eternity to me the way the way things are going right now.


Your best interest is to bear it for another 9 months. You'd be crazy not to even if it involves making him think you'll live with it. No matter how you look at it, whether you go or stay, in 9 months will pass and he will still have cheated on you. You may as well make some money off it.
Second, don't ever marry a man younger than you. Being a single cougar maybe fun. Being a married cougar usually results in what you're going through.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

baxter said:


> I talked to my oldest son last night (28 yrs old). He cannot believe this is happening, that it is so out of character for his stepfather. He was very upset, crying. He begged me to just hold tight, not do anything permanent or drastic and see if this is something that will blow over. He said that I have to weigh the first great 18 years against this one episode and is it worth giving up my marriage if WH decides he made a mistake and wants to reconcile.
> 
> I am so confused.


Baxter, lifeistoshort is right, your son does not have any life experience with this.

I am kind of going through the same thing. I have been with my husband for over 25 years, he cheated and he is a serial cheater. He tells me he is done with the cheating it is not worth it. My best judgement tells me I need to file for D. When I mentioned this to my 21 year old daughter, she acted like it would all fall on me if I break up the family unit. We are a family of five, and she is the oldest. In talking with my MC, she also said my daughter has not lived enough life experiences to sway my decision. I can feel your pain in trying to make a decision. This is the hardest thing I have ever done and I still have not decided. Take you time.


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

No, he doesn't have the life experience. But he loves this man, feels that this man's presence in his life was valuable and a game changer for our family. My life and my three children's lives were changed for the better when this man decided to take us on as a family.

My son is still furious with him and said if he saw WH he probably wouldn't be able to control himself but I do understand that he is conflicted. It's so hard when the people we love most, hurt us the most.


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

Sweet Ginger said:


> Baxter, lifeistoshort is right, your son does not have any life experience with this.
> 
> I am kind of going through the same thing. I have been with my husband for over 25 years, he cheated and he is a serial cheater. He tells me he is done with the cheating it is not worth it. My best judgement tells me I need to file for D. When I mentioned this to my 21 year old daughter, she acted like it would all fall on me if I break up the family unit. We are a family of five, and she is the oldest. In talking with my MC, she also said my daughter has not lived enough life experiences to sway my decision. I can feel your pain in trying to make a decision. This is the hardest thing I have ever done and I still have not decided. Take you time.


How long have you known about the cheating?

I am sorry you are going through this. Is your husband in IC or MC with you? Do you think he is done cheating?


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

baxter said:


> How long have you known about the cheating?
> 
> I am sorry you are going through this. Is your husband in IC or MC with you? Do you think he is done cheating?


My first discovery day of an EA was 1/15/13. My second discovery day of a PA was 4/17/13. These were with two different women. The PA was with the worst one. She is a drug selling wh*re that lives off the system. He also told me that he was with yet another woman, he went to her apartment asking her for sex. He said she wanted him to date her before that happened. So he tells me he didn't get anything. I don't think I really know everything yet.
So you can see I am having major trust issues. He wants to R very much, but how do you trust someone with his record?

Yes, I think down the road when he thinks I am some what over everything, that it would be easy for him to cheat.

I am in IC and we are both in MC. I am also on anti-depressants.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

baxter said:


> It's like a habit or a knee jerk reaction. If my husband is hurting, my first instinct is to comfort him. Perverse, huh, that I want to do that. * The idea of him alone in a hotel just rips me up*. But as I told him mother, these are the consequences of his actions. None of this is happening to him in a vacuum, it is all the direct result of his actions.


Absolutely correct. These are HIS actions, HE has to own them. 

Think about the times he's been in hotel rooms and NOT been alone. Does that change your point of view? 

Travel and being in hotels with my fWW triggers the heck out of me.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Baxter, can I tell you? I think you are doing awesome. 

Stay the course. His world is crashing and his fog will lift. Then you can decide whether to heal with him or without him.


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

Sweet Ginger said:


> .
> So you can see I am having major trust issues. He wants to R very much, but how do you trust someone with his record?
> 
> Yes, I think down the road when he thinks I am some what over everything, that it would be easy for him to cheat.
> ...


Wow. I am so sorry for the hurt that has been afflicted upon you. Do you think his desire for R is real? My WH doesn't even want that. He won't even commit to a R because he can't give her up. He's addicted to her, intoxicated. He chose this POSow that for 135 days he met in secret over me. And then he said that when he was deciding what he wanted for the future, he couldn't even consider our past, the years we had together that were happy, content and productive because he knew that could never be restored and he needed to evaluate the future on what could just be going forward. So what? 20 years of my life and effort count for nothing but some happy memories for him? He also said that when all was said and done and if we R and it was successful, at the end of his life, he would still have this marriage that was perfect except for this one dark hole in the middle of it. It would always be scarred and marred. Like that was enough of a reason not to try to R! It was a very hurtful and cruel thing to say and was one of the reasons among others that I had to go NC


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

baxter said:


> He also said that when all was said and done and if we R and it was successful, at the end of his life, he would still have this marriage that was perfect except for this one dark hole in the middle of it. It would always be scarred and marred. Like that was enough of a reason not to try to R! It was a very hurtful and cruel thing to say and was one of the reasons among others that I had to go NC


This is nonsensical justification if ever I heard it. Just replace his A with any calamity and you can see why it makes no sense:

"My mother died suddenly, causing several years of grief and a dark hole in the middle of the marriage."

"I was treated for cancer and faced the specter of death, leaving a dark hole in the middle of the marriage."

"We lost our home and were destitute for several years, resulting in a dark hole in the middle of the marriage."

None of these is a valid reason not to try R.

You see, he's just trying to find a rational explanation for you for his intention to do what he wants, which is stay with the OW. If he ever sees the error of his ways and wants to come home and reconcile, this 'dark hole' won't stop him. You can bet on that.

The NC is the best thing for you. Most people say the pain lessens as the NC proceeds. This is my experience as well. It will help you develop the independent emotional strength you need to keep going.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> This is nonsensical justification if ever I heard it. Just replace his A with any calamity and you can see why it makes no sense:
> 
> "My mother died suddenly, causing several years of grief and a dark hole in the middle of the marriage."
> 
> ...


But here's the thing. *HE* created the calamity and then blames what *he* did for not being able to R. What a load of contrived horse shyte.

He'd be better off just telling you he just doesn't want to R.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

badmemory said:


> But here's the thing. *HE* created the calamity and then blames what *he* did for not being able to R. What a load of contrived horse shyte.
> 
> He'd be better off just telling you he just doesn't want to R.


Yes, like breaking someone's leg and then saying, "I can't be with you now because it pains me to see you limping around like that."


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## LonelyinLove (Jul 11, 2013)

baxter said:


> I guess I'm still trying to get my head around this different person. It's like an alien has taken over his body or he's possessed. That's what makes this so hard. He talks to me and says things and I just can hardly comprehend it. It's like he's speaking in a different language.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> Yes, like breaking someone's leg and then saying, "I can't be with you now because it pains me to see you limping around like that."


Perfect alte Dame. I was thinking about what metaphor would be apt, but you nailed it.


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## Rosie123 (Sep 5, 2011)

Just an alternate idea here.... This is based off of my own ideas about marriage and love and relationships. I'm about to hit 30 and have been married 11 years come Jan, but we've been together since '98. I believe we have one of the best marriages out of anyone I know / have read about.

*Note* I am definitely not placing blame on you for your husband's bad choices, nor am I suggesting you accept this other woman into your life. Only merely offering a different viewpoint into a situation where many others like you have felt so utterly hurt and basically destroyed inside because of cheating. But human brains can do amazing things. As such we can decide that a certain thing does not bother us as much as we initially thought.

Now you say yourself that the marriage has been great throughout the years. He was a wonderful husband and father. Did that change during the affair? Was he any less attentive during the time before you knew? Was he able to meet the needs of you and your family?

What if... You just go back to the way things were?  Is it just the sex that bothers you? I have heard all the arguments to both sides, but I know there are many people who don't hold sex as the pinnacle of life. You said yourself all of the great things about him: "I've invested 20 years in this relationship and up until this year, WH has been a stellar partner, just the best husband possible. He raised my children. He adored and supported me. We enjoyed each other's company." To those like me, THOSE qualities are what MAKE a relationship, not just the sex. Yes there are emotional ties that come with sex, but so are there with many other facets of life. Even with all others have said in this thread, there is still a recurring theme that mentions the years of history in this relationship.

The mindset I am proposing is unconventional, but given the fact that many, many people actually choose relationships with two or multiple people at once, I don't see the problem with considering looking at the situation from a completely different angle. Yes in those relationships all are involved and open to the set up. But you have to start the thought process somewhere. I'm not saying the other woman has to have any part of the family life if you choose not to have it that way, but what if...?

People will say but think about how it makes you FEEL... Yeah so what? People feel a certain way about a LOT of things and end up changing their mind. Teenagers don't feel like they can become a parent any time soon. In the old days whites didn't feel like they could live equally with blacks. Kids don't like onions then they grow up and realize their deliciousness! I wonder how much of what we feel is 100% right is coming from being brought up and told things must be this way or else. I mean... It's not cheating if you know, right? I would never support promiscuity, that's unhealthy for many obvious reasons, but loving, supportive relationships? Why must there be only one? If this is some way of him meeting a subconscious need he has inside, well then...? (Primal urges jokes aside!  ) I have never been one to feel that a single person can meet all my needs in a relationship.

There are many more questions like this that can point to an alternate way of looking at things, but I don't want to go off too much, haha.

My bottom line- if communication were more open in life, things wouldn't progress to this awful point of hurt. That goes for everyone! If he had felt he could have come to you and said he was having these feelings about this woman, and believed you would have been there for him, maybe something good could have come of it. Maybe this explains some of the alien-ness you describe where he says things you just don't understand. *shrugs* What do you all think??


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## Spikeygrrl (Apr 5, 2012)

Don't make the error of ass/u/me-ing that it's all about the age difference. I have been happily married for 13 years to a man 15 years my junior. He is that rarity in this benighted age, a "Gen X'er" who is still a gentleman and a good provider.


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## ThinkTooMuch (Aug 6, 2010)

baxter said:


> My goal with MC was to restore the marriage. In the letter last week that was one of the conditions I gave him, that he continue IC and MC and to consider it a small price to pay towards what he owed me for what he had done.
> 
> If he's willing to keep going to MC, does that mean I have to also? Is it right of me to pull out of it when I made it a request to him that he's willing to honor?


As far as MC goes, hope your counsellor is good, so many of them aren't, or are called in well too late. To answer your question, let me first ask what he expects out of MC? Just showing up isn't enough.

As your WH is infatuated and the AP sees a well to do male, I think there is little likelihood they will split in the near future. 

I'm a 64 yo male and strongly believe that for most men our little heads make our big decisions. 

I don't know what state you are in, your report of how simple it is to divorce makes me wish I lived there and not in CT until a few years ago.

Even so I suspect that if you follow his mother's advice and try to skin him alive, a lawyer will get involved. As I know from my 2 1/2 year divorce (started by my was wife) it will get *very* expensive. If he gets a sleazy lawyer and there are lot of them for a man who is doing well, you are going to spend a fortune you don't have - $250,000 might be spent on lawyers instead of you and your children.

When and if you find an attorney, recognize that all her promises and plans are subject to change. So much depends on the WH and to some degree the AP.

Please start thinking about mediation - you will both save a lot of energy, money and time if you can go this route. This alone might be worth discussing with a MC.

Recognize your WH may decide to start the divorce before April 2014, he may not stay as unaware as he currently is.

There is an awful lot to be said for a mediated/negotiated settlement.

Also, since he is apparently a good father having an angry divorce may impact the kids adversely.

You are very aware that there are no easy paths in front of you, and no way to turn the clock back.

Good luck.


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

Rosie123 said:


> People will say but think about how it makes you FEEL... Yeah so what? People feel a certain way about a LOT of things and end up changing their mind. Teenagers don't feel like they can become a parent any time soon. In the old days whites didn't feel like they could live equally with blacks. Kids don't like onions then they grow up and realize their deliciousness! I wonder how much of what we feel is 100% right is coming from being brought up and told things must be this way or else. I mean... It's not cheating if you know, right? I would never support promiscuity, that's unhealthy for many obvious reasons, but loving, supportive relationships? Why must there be only one? If this is some way of him meeting a subconscious need he has inside, well then...? (Primal urges jokes aside!  ) I have never been one to feel that a single person can meet all my needs in a relationship.
> 
> There are many more questions like this that can point to an alternate way of looking at things, but I don't want to go off too much, haha.
> 
> My bottom line- if communication were more open in life, things wouldn't progress to this awful point of hurt. That goes for everyone! If he had felt he could have come to you and said he was having these feelings about this woman, and believed you would have been there for him, maybe something good could have come of it. Maybe this explains some of the alien-ness you describe where he says things you just don't understand. *shrugs* What do you all think??


I have no problem with relationships structured any way that works for the two people involved. If they want an open relationship and both parties agree, more power to them. 

What I have a problem with is someone changing the rules in mid-game. Exclusivity, monogamy and committment are important to me. I would never be in a relationship where those three items were not paramount. That is me. It's how I am. He believed those things right from the start also. In fact the irony of this whole situation is infidelity (until this year) was a huge fear of his. He always asked me to be loyal. Our wedding rings are engraved 'servabo fidem' I will keep faith (he picked out the engraving). I knew that this was an issue for him so while I've never felt the urge to cheat or an attraction to another person, I always made sure that my behavior was impeccable. I never wanted to cause him a second of doubt. 

On Dday, he actually asked me, 'What was I supposed to do? Come tell you I was feeling attracted to someone else? How would that have gone over?" I told him it would have been ugly and brutal and we would have had some hard times because of it but I thought we could get through something like that. And then I asked him, "as bad as that scenario could be, would it be any worse than this?" And he very sadly said, "no".


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

Today's email exchange between WH and Intermediary:

From Intermediary:
The marriage counseling tonight with Harry is canceled.
Thanks,

From WH:
May I ask why it was canceled?

From Intermediary:
No. baxter decided to cancel it for this week. That's all.

From WH:
Well I have three problems with this:
1) The terse nature of the reply is unwarranted and an explanation should be given.
2) I very much wanted to see my wife for the first time in a week. I have respected her rules at her request and this was the one opportunity we had to connect.
3) I will assume such a late cancellation will still cost us $125.
There is obviously something on her mind that she is not sharing and perhaps she would like to speak with me directly. She may do so at any time.

From Intermediary:
I didn't intend to be terse, just matter of fact. It was not written angrily or with ill intent, so I apologize that it came across that way.
baxter came to the decision (on her own) that she did not want to have this week's counseling session. She does not want to discuss the decision with you or provide you with more of an explanation, or I promise you I would have passed that along. I am not here to add any stress or ill-will to your communications, in fact, my goal is just the opposite of that.
I will remind her again, but I know that baxter has always known that you are open to direct communication with her.
Thanks,

From Intermediary:
Sorry, I failed to answer your other concern. I will verify with baxter and get back to you with the answer, but I believe she cancelled the appointment yesterday morning, so there shouldn't be a late penalty.

From WH:
I guess I should have said "her reply" and not "the reply". I knew she was the one being terse. I won't press the issue further. If she does not wish to share her reasoning or explanation then so be it.

From Intermediary:
I verified that you were not charged a late cancellation fee.
baxter is aware that you are open to phone/email/in-person direct communication with her.
baxter has given me permission to tell you, as a partial explanation, that the relationship between you and she absolutely cannot move forward while you are committing adultery (physical or emotional).

From WH:
It appears I have received yet another surprise today - a blank, 11 - page financial affidavit. I did not receive an explanation for this either. Would baxter be interested in providing some background and purpose for such a form?
Thank you,

From Intermediary:
It's preparatory divorce paperwork from baxter's lawyer. If you don't want to fill it out, baxter asks that you come up with what you think would be a fair settlement for her.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

baxter said:


> From Intermediary:
> baxter has given me permission to tell you, as a partial explanation, that the relationship between you and she absolutely cannot move forward while you are committing adultery (physical or emotional).





baxter said:


> From Intermediary:
> It's preparatory divorce paperwork from baxter's lawyer. If you don't want to fill it out, baxter asks that you come up with what you think would be a fair settlement for her.


 You just told him "No more cake" and that you demand to be respected. It was hard to do, but it was the right thing to do. Be well and God bless. Good luck.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Good job Baxter. Please remember that this pos has no intention of filing for divorce, meaning that he wants to hold on to you as plan B. He can't even have the decency to let you move on with your life while he bangs his tr$mp, your life is supposed to hold for him to see if there can be something long term with tr$mp. But he knows deep down that she can't be a long term thing, that's why he bullsh$ts around mc and wanting to see you. Yet even though he doesn't want to R he still goes to mc. Why? To keep you as a possibility, that's why. If he cared that much the affair would be over; think about the nerve of this pos that literally acts wounded and insulted that you had him served with financial papers while HE openly carries on with his tr&mp, he's treated you like you are nothing. NOTHING. He doesn't even have the decency to spare your feelings and hide it. Get rid of him now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

One of the many things that you learn quickly from the stories here is that the WS becomes 'another person,' not the person the BS thought he or she knew. This is almost universal. It seems that once the WS has decided to shift allegiance to the AP, it is okay to hurt, dismiss, ignore the BS, who tries in vain to understand the new person that the WS has become.

Please try to remember that your WH will not act the way you expect him to act given your history together. His cheating is the first, very painful bit of evidence of that. He will probably continue to surprise you. He may continue to lie when you thought you had married an honest man. He may rewrite your marital history to justify his infidelity. He may become neglectful of your children, when you always thought he was a great father.

If you can continue to disabuse yourself of your expectations of who you always thought he was, some of the pain may be more manageable.


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## Sweet Ginger (Mar 25, 2013)

baxter said:


> Wow. I am so sorry for the hurt that has been afflicted upon you. Do you think his desire for R is real? My WH doesn't even want that. He won't even commit to a R because he can't give her up. He's addicted to her, intoxicated. He chose this POSow that for 135 days he met in secret over me. And then he said that when he was deciding what he wanted for the future, he couldn't even consider our past, the years we had together that were happy, content and productive because he knew that could never be restored and he needed to evaluate the future on what could just be going forward. So what? 20 years of my life and effort count for nothing but some happy memories for him? He also said that when all was said and done and if we R and it was successful, at the end of his life, he would still have this marriage that was perfect except for this one dark hole in the middle of it. It would always be scarred and marred. Like that was enough of a reason not to try to R! It was a very hurtful and cruel thing to say and was one of the reasons among others that I had to go NC


I think if I agree to R, it will be a false R. That's one of the reasons I haven't made a decision. But my therapist told me by not making a decision, I am making a decision. It lets my WS know that at this point right now, I am not filing for D. I know what you are saying about the 20 years of your life. I have over 25 years invested and somehow I don't think that means a thing to the WS when they are going into an affair.

So sorry you are going through all of this mess.


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## GoBlue (Feb 21, 2013)

Baxter, I hope that you are able to receive lifetime alimony if you divorce. You deserve it. Truly you do.

He has admitted that he is addicted to her and can't stop. And even if he stopped for whatever reason (she dumps him etc), he may very well jump into another similar situation.

And honestly, do you still respect him at this point? 

Fingers crossed your attorney is brilliant and you get what you deserve, a comfortable worry free life and a fresh start. Stay strong!


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

It's funny. When I read that email exchange, the one part that sticks out to me is:

< I very much wanted to see my wife for the first time in a week. I have respected her rules at her request and this was the one opportunity we had to connect.>

My first thought was 'oh, he WANTED to see me! He really does care.' 
Boy, these people have our hearts and we are suckers for it, aren't we?
I spent all last night resisting the urge to email him. Just to say I'm sorry and ask him how he's doing.


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> One of the many things that you learn quickly from the stories here is that the WS becomes 'another person,' not the person the BS thought he or she knew. This is almost universal. It seems that once the WS has decided to shift allegiance to the AP, it is okay to hurt, dismiss, ignore the BS, who tries in vain to understand the new person that the WS has become.
> 
> Please try to remember that your WH will not act the way you expect him to act given your history together. His cheating is the first, very painful bit of evidence of that. He will probably continue to surprise you. He may continue to lie when you thought you had married an honest man. He may rewrite your marital history to justify his infidelity. He may become neglectful of your children, when you always thought he was a great father.
> 
> If you can continue to disabuse yourself of your expectations of who you always thought he was, some of the pain may be more manageable.


This is the hardest thing to get my mind around. I would look at him and look just trying to see through what was there on the surface to my husband underneath. How in the world can someone just change like flicking a switch? And it seems like it's universal. It seems like these affairs play out according to a script. I told him once it's like he's just ticking off boxes on the affair playlist.

The change in personality - the loss of the person who was and is now replaced by a stranger - that might be the worse part of this. If it can happen to a strong, rational, confident steadfast person like my WH, are any of us safe? Are any of us who we think we are?


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

baxter said:


> baxter has given me permission to tell you, as a partial explanation, that the relationship between you and she absolutely cannot move forward while you are committing adultery (physical or emotional).


Perfect.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

baxter said:


> It's funny. When I read that email exchange, the one part that sticks out to me is:
> 
> < I very much wanted to see my wife for the first time in a week. I have respected her rules at her request and this was the one opportunity we had to connect.>
> 
> ...


That not what he is saying, what he was saying "but I want to cake eat under my terms and rules, and I don't like that you aren't letting me do that!"

My suggestions

1. Dont play games like you did with the canceling with no explanation. Be honest - no more wasting time on MC until he is fully at the table working on the M, and that means the OW is 100% gone. You will not compete with her, and you will not accept him being in another relationship while falsely working on his marriage.

2. Tell your intermediary to stop feeding him attention or apologizing when he doesn't like the answer he got from you. Her job is to pass the info along, not answer for it, apologize for it, talk about it, or analyze it for him. He is using her as a substitute for you. Her engaging him like she did validates his actions and feelings and undermines your distancing yourself from him.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

baxter said:


> It's funny. When I read that email exchange, the one part that sticks out to me is:
> 
> < I very much wanted to see my wife for the first time in a week. I have respected her rules at her request and this was the one opportunity we had to connect.>


 It really is amazing that he has the nerve to claim that he has respected your rules and requests, while ignoring the rule against cheating on you and your request that he stop cheating, all while trying claim his right as your husband to see "my wife". The fog is thick with this one.


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

baxter said:


> This is the hardest thing to get my mind around. I would look at him and look just trying to see through what was there on the surface to my husband underneath. How in the world can someone just change like flicking a switch? And it seems like it's universal. It seems like these affairs play out according to a script. I told him once it's like he's just ticking off boxes on the affair playlist.
> 
> The change in personality - the loss of the person who was and is now replaced by a stranger - that might be the worse part of this. If it can happen to a strong, rational, confident steadfast person like my WH, are any of us safe? Are any of us who we think we are?


If your husband is indeed the person you described before his affair, I can almost guarantee he will, unfortunately for him, "wake up" sooner or later to his mistake of not honoring your marriage.
I don't believe it's ever too late for reconciliation...even after divorce...I'm sure there will be much pain and regret to bear on his part the longer he persists with this woman.
I feel for you and I'm rooting for you and your marriage Baxter. It's time to just take care of yourself through these dark hours. Don't worry about him; he'll be alright.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

baxter said:


> How in the world can someone just change like flicking a switch?


 Actually, it is not so much that he changed, as much as it is that his relationship with you changed. You went from being his priority to his backup. He is now being what he once was to you with his affair partner (AP). She is seeing the man that you use to know, while you are seeing the man that he is to someone that is not his primary person in life. Same man, different perspective.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

baxter said:


> This is the hardest thing to get my mind around. I would look at him and look just trying to see through what was there on the surface to my husband underneath. How in the world can someone just change like flicking a switch? And it seems like it's universal. It seems like these affairs play out according to a script. I told him once it's like he's just ticking off boxes on the affair playlist.
> 
> The change in personality - the loss of the person who was and is now replaced by a stranger - that might be the worse part of this. If it can happen to a strong, rational, confident steadfast person like my WH, are any of us safe? Are any of us who we think we are?


Baxter,

I am amazed at your composure and sense of awareness through your trials. I am just reading your thread for the first time, and it really is remarkable. You set the bar for BWs.

The quote above illustrates your understanding of the betrayal. It goes beyond cheating to a complete undermining of the loyal spouse. I feel the cover-up cheaters use to justify their guilt and/or self-entitlement becomes more heinious than the infidelity they commit.

It is good that your children and extended family know the truth. The most devestating thing that happened to me was the undermining of my character to my 18 year old son. Two years later, and he is just begining to communicate with me. My exWW's betrayal to lie about me to my son was incredibley difficult. In many ways it was worse than the PA and EA she had with a co-worker, and my former best friend.

My point in relating this story is that they will attempt to continue to tear you down to save face. It is part of the selfish nature of a cheater. It is wise to assume that they will serve only their interests, not yours.

The change that occurrs from suffering through a betrayal is profound. It impacts your core. The quote above indicates that you are being deeply affected by the betrayal. Maybe that is a good thing. Maybe we needed to remove the view that we can trust completely in our spouses. Your new challenge will be to accept others knowing that they can not be completely trusted. Your heart can not be completely vested in another.

Hope you continue to grow as you make your way down this path.

Thanks for posting. It is inspiring to many of us.


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## I'm The Prize (May 22, 2012)

:smthumbup:


Shaggy said:


> Then drive her off - post her up on cheaterville and send the link around.


:iagree:




You don't have to be friends with someone on Facebook to see their friends list. Send a message to every friend, especially family, and let them know what a winner they have in their life. That should send her into a work. And YOU should confront HR and his supervisor about the lack of action.


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

She's an internet ghost. I've scoured looking for a pic of her and came up with nothing. The most I've gotten is her sister's fb page.

I would love nothing more than to put her up there.


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## I'm The Prize (May 22, 2012)

baxter said:


> It's funny. When I read that email exchange, the one part that sticks out to me is:
> 
> < I very much wanted to see my wife for the first time in a week. I have respected her rules at her request and this was the one opportunity we had to connect.>
> 
> ...



:scratchhead: Baxter, did you read the second part of his response? "I respected her rules at her request". Really? Everything but the most important rule of all STOP SEEING THE WH$RE YOU ARE BANGING! I had been married 28 years when our D-Day happened and I had no job and no hope of getting more than $500 a month out of my FWH but there was no way that I was going to budge when it came to him having full NC with the OW or her pimping husband. Read it again Baxter. Has he REALLY respected ANYTHING about you or your rules? Really? The very LEAST a WS can do to begin R is to get rid of the AP. Lots of cake eating going on here. You don't deserve to be treated in such a selfish, disrespectful manner and only you can stop it from continuing.


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## I'm The Prize (May 22, 2012)

baxter said:


> She's an internet ghost. I've scoured looking for a pic of her and came up with nothing. The most I've gotten is her sister's fb page.
> 
> I would love nothing more than to put her up there.


You have her sister's page? That means you probably have access to other family member through that sister's friends list. Out the girl!


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

Today's email exchange:

From WH:

<Please ask baxter if that is a serious request in so much as she is truly looking for a number very shortly. Perhaps she has changed her mind from what was said to me on the phone and what was implied by the letter she wrote me - that she was in no hurry to move in this direction. I will do anything she asks (now) and I will give her anything she asks for (later) - but because my feelings for my wife have not changed, I do not want to move down that road right now.
Also, I am wondering if I have any mail or packages I could pick up. And if so, when and how?
Thank you,>


From Intermediary:

<Although she has not made a final decision, she does seriously want you to either do the financial paperwork or present her with a settlement offer. That doesn't mean she'll decide to finalize, but she'd like to get started, as the process can be lengthy. 
I'm not sure about the mail. I will ask her when she gets to work and get back to you. I would be glad to deliver if that's what you two decide.>


And of course, because I spent most of last night in turmoil, wanting nothing more than to talk to him and resisting the urge to email, I immediately fired off an email to him:

<My feelings for you haven't changed. What I hope for as the outcome of this whole mess hasn't changed. But I deserve more than to be married to a man that doesn't want to be married to me.>

And I've heard nothing back from him. And I'm frantic, nervous and panicky. Exactly the emotions I went NC to avoid. I feel weak, stupid and ticked off at myself. Because I check my email constantly, I wonder if he will respond, what does it mean if he doesn't respond and can I resist emailing him if he doesn't respond.


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## I'm The Prize (May 22, 2012)

Send a private message to the sister and other family members saying something like: You don't know me but my name is _______. For ______months ________ has been carrying on an affair with my husband of 16 year ________. I realize the ______is young, in fact, she is young enough to be his daughter. I feel you should know that she is risking her career because I intend to force the company to take action against them. I also think you should be aware that I am in the process of seeking a divorce because the affair has not stopped and I fully intend to name her in that case which will mean that her actions will become part of public record. If it were one of my family members I would want to know so as to be given the opportunity to her from destroying her life as she has mine.


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

Lovemytruck said:


> Baxter,
> 
> I am amazed at your composure and sense of awareness through your trials. I am just reading your thread for the first time, and it really is remarkable. You set the bar for BWs.
> QUOTE]
> ...


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## I'm The Prize (May 22, 2012)

baxter,
Stop emailing him for the love of God! I know how hard it is but every time you manage to put some much needed pressure on him you relieve that pressure by reassuring him that you don't want a divorce. He should be the one reassuring you! He should be showing you he wants the marriage because he loves you and not because he wants someone to run to when little miss thing is done with her daddy complex! Do not make yourself an option. Declare yourself the only option or no option! If he isn't willing to stop seeing her he doesn't care about you he only cares about himself and he is just hoping you are weak enough, in love enough, embarrassed enough, tired enough, or scared enough to let him get away with it. You don't deserve this and there isn't a single reason that I can come up with for you to let this continue. If you want to save your marriage then you have to make losing you a very real possibility to him. If he loves you at all it will eventually drive him from her to you. If it doesn't he doesn't love you anyway and your better off knowing that up front.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

baxter said:


> And of course, because I spent most of last night in turmoil, wanting nothing more than to talk to him and resisting the urge to email, I immediately fired off an email to him:
> 
> <My feelings for you haven't changed. What I hope for as the outcome of this whole mess hasn't changed. But I deserve more than to be married to a man that doesn't want to be married to me.>
> 
> And I've heard nothing back from him. And I'm frantic, nervous and panicky. Exactly the emotions I went NC to avoid. I feel weak, stupid and ticked off at myself. Because I check my email constantly, I wonder if he will respond, what does it mean if he doesn't respond and can I resist emailing him if he doesn't respond.


Aww, Bax, that just makes my heart hurt for you. I do know that feeling, I really do. 

You have to remember that who he was, isn't the man writing the words you're reading now. You're hoping to reach that part of him that you hope is still in there, buried and hiddden by the fog. 

He might be, but you need to stay your course until HE shows you that he's still in there. All you control is you. He used to be in control of himself, but that's been lost, at least for now. 

And I second LovwMyTruck, you show a lot of insight and mental poise in your posts. As difficult as this is for you, you're bound to have moments, like sending him an email. You're human, and hope springs inside you. But you have to let your head lead you in this one, not your heart. Your heart needs to be behind iron walls with a stong roof for the interim.

God bless.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

From what you've told us your WH is conflicted, but not in the way that you are hoping for. He is not being buffeted because he thinks he is in love with two women. He is buffeted because he loves you and his family, but is in lust with the OW and thinks he is in love with her. He feels guilt and love for you, but not the 'in love' feelings that are drawing him to her. Thus, the cake-eating. His responses to the intermediary are just that, cake-eating.

Even if you think you have some grasp on what he is thinking, that is what is in his head, not what is in yours. Remember that while you are emotionally destroyed by this, he is going about his life. He is successfully working and continues to indulge his new love, all the while managing the guilt he feels about you. I predict that his desire to go to the MC was to give him a way to manage 'letting you down easily.'

You are dealing with immense heartbreak & I am so sorry, but you sound strong and stable. Your instincts to go NC are correct, in my opinion. The more you regroup and keep your life (and it is YOUR life!) to yourself, the better your outcome, whatever it is, will be, I think.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

baxter said:


> Lovemytruck said:
> 
> 
> > Baxter,
> ...


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## 3rdmanout (Aug 22, 2011)

Dear Baxter,
Unfortunately, nobody here can really tell you which way to go. 

Personally, it sounds to me from some of your replies that you are handling all of this more rationally than most ppl. I commend you on taking time to think, feel, process etc before making huge life decisions like the big "D". I know for me personally, it took several months to feel emotionally stable, and about 6 months to feel "ok" with my situation. 

As for the waiting for your WH's current situation to dissipate and his feelings (for her) to fade, that can be a LONG wait. Sometimes, even after the feelings fade, the situation remains.
I'll be on two years of waiting come next week. She is still living with the old guy (13 yrs older) she hooked up with during deployment 2 1/2 yrs ago. I KNOW from our long telephone conversations, her long goodbyes when picking up/dropping off our daughter (hanging out for hours sometimes) and many other clues that she is not happy with him yet her pride, or maybe feelings of being undeserving (her words from a conversation several months after our split) stand in the way of rebuilding what was a "better than i could have ever imagined" relationship before deployment destroyed it. 

I wish you the best in figuring out what will work best for you.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

baxter said:


> From WH:
> 
> <Please ask baxter if that is a serious request in so much as she is truly looking for a number very shortly. Perhaps she has changed her mind from what was said to me on the phone and what was implied by the letter she wrote me - that she was in no hurry to move in this direction.


 Your initial weakness when you were in shock by all of this, made him think that you were giving him the green light to cheat with this other woman (OW) as you would wait for him. You need to take that away from him. Both your response, and that of the intermediary's, did not do that. You need to have the intermediary tell you husband that you now want to proceed as fast as possible with divorce and mean it for him to take you seriously. The sad truth is that it may already be too late to save your marraige, but the longer that you take to show him that you are really willing to move on, the lower your odds of saving the marraige.



baxter said:


> From WH: I will do anything she asks (now) and I will give her anything she asks for (later) - but because my feelings for my wife have not changed, I do not want to move down that road right now.


 Have the intermediary quote this back to your husband, and say to him that if you really "will do anything she asks (now)", she wants you to know that she is asking you to go full no contact with the other woman (OW) and agree to never see or communicate with the OW ever again. Then have the intermediary tell him that if he is not willing to do that right now, then it does not matter to you that he does "not want to move down that road right now".


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

TRy said:


> Your initial weakness when you were in shock by all of this, made him think that you were giving him the green light to cheat with this other woman (OW) as you would wait for him. You need to take that away from him. Both your response, and that of the intermediary's, did not do that. You need to have the intermediary tell you husband that you now want to proceed as fast as possible with divorce and mean it for him to take you seriously. The sad truth is that it may already be too late to save your marraige, but the longer that you take to show him that you are really willing to move on, the lower your odds of saving the marraige.
> 
> Have the intermediary quote this back to your husband, and say to him that if you really "will do anything she asks (now)", she wants you to know that she is asking you to go full no contact with the other woman (OW) and agree to never see or communicate with the OW ever again. Then have the intermediary tell him that if he is not willing to do that right now, then it does not matter to you that he does "not want to move down that road right now".


I KNOW! I just don't think I can do that right now. I don't think I'm brave enough, I don't think I can pull it off. I don't want to be divorced. I don't want to lose this marriage. I'm too afraid to do that.


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

3rdmanout said:


> Dear Baxter,
> Unfortunately, nobody here can really tell you which way to go.
> 
> Personally, it sounds to me from some of your replies that you are handling all of this more rationally than most ppl. I commend you on taking time to think, feel, process etc before making huge life decisions like the big "D". I know for me personally, it took several months to feel emotionally stable, and about 6 months to feel "ok" with my situation.
> ...


Would you be willing to try to R with her? How do you feel about her?


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

baxter said:


> I KNOW! I just don't think I can do that right now. I don't think I'm brave enough, I don't think I can pull it off. I don't want to be divorced. I don't want to lose this marriage. I'm too afraid to do that.


Your feelings are your weakness. They will change with time.

Most of us feel these things early after d-day. We cling and offer R to the unremorseful/unchanged WS. We examine ourselves and try hard to forgive.

It feeds their fire. They feel that the A was justified. They reluctantly offer to stay just because they are wonderful people.

Your feelings will change as you realize the true nature of the beast.

You will overcome your fear of D. When you reach that point, and they realize it, the tide will change. YOU will be in control of the relationship. YOU will likely decide that you are not responsible for their actions. YOU will likely want a D.

It is hard to imagine as you feel so hurt and in love with him today. Your logic begins to overcome your feelings.

The end result is the WS usually will realize that they will lose out. They become clingy. They beg. They will wonder what they can do to keep you.

If not, you didn't have a chance because he didn't love you. Harsh words. It is a painful reality.

I feel so deeply for those that are in your shoes. God bless your heart.


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## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

"Never make someone your priority, who only makes you an option."


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## I'm The Prize (May 22, 2012)

baxter said:


> I KNOW! I just don't think I can do that right now. I don't think I'm brave enough, I don't think I can pull it off. I don't want to be divorced. I don't want to lose this marriage. I'm too afraid to do that.


This is how I felt at first but then I started to realize that legally married or not, if he was seeing someone else I was losing my marriage. Just remaining legal doesn't mean you have a marriage it means you have a contract.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

baxter said:


> I KNOW! I just don't think I can do that right now. I don't think I'm brave enough, I don't think I can pull it off. I don't want to be divorced. I don't want to lose this marriage. I'm too afraid to do that.


That's honest.

But it won't fix your marriage. 

The classic TAM saying comes to mind: "If you want to save your marriage, you have to be willing to lose it."

Trust me, I know how hard that is to put into real life action.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

baxter said:


> I KNOW! I just don't think I can do that right now. I don't think I'm brave enough, I don't think I can pull it off. I don't want to be divorced. I don't want to lose this marriage. I'm too afraid to do that.


 The best odds of saving your marriage is to be willing to lose it. The more that you play by his rules, the greater the odds that you will be divorced. Time is not on your side here. Every day that passes, life without you becomes more normal to him. 

When a bee stings a person, the stinger leaves its body and the bee goes off and dies. Thus the bee has more to lose than the person being stung. Yet because we know the the bee is determined to sting us, people run from the bee. Your husband must fear the risk of losing you for him to even begin to think about ending the affair. Until then, why should he end it?


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

I understand what everyone is telling me. And I appreciate the advice. It just seems impossible to carry it out right now. I'm going to have to think about this some more.


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## I'm The Prize (May 22, 2012)

I would have given my right arm to be in the financial situation you are in on my D-Day. Yet, I knew that allowing it to continue only allowed him to continue to think what he was doing to me was acceptable; that I somehow deserved it. You have nothing to lose by standing up for yourself. Men don't respect women who act like they can't live without them. This is a fact. It's not that my heart doesn't ache for you, it does. I know what this is like. I still live with the aftermath every day of my life. Thing is, I got tired of feeling used and disposable. I got tired of acting like the things he did didn't crush me. I got tired of wandering what my lack of self-protection was saying to my children. I hate being alone. I always have. But I would rather be alone for the rest of my life than be treated as my husband's ticket to respectability. If he wants to act like a sleaze in the future he will do it without me and with everyone knowing why. I hurt for you that as much as he has done to you with his behavior you are hurting yourself far worse than he ever did.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

baxter said:


> I understand what everyone is telling me. And I appreciate the advice. It just seems impossible to carry it out right now.


 This is why you are where you are. Your husband at first told you that he broke it off for a few days until he saw your weakness and decided to exploit it. I feel for you. I am sorry that you are being forced to make this types of horrible decision, but as Jack O’Donnell say's in the movie ARGO “This is the best bad idea we have”. Sometimes you must just play the bad hand that you were dealt as best as it can be played, and hope for the best.


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

I hired a private investigator today to do surveillance on them. I want proof that they are a couple. I blew them into coworkers and one of them took it HR but because there was no 'proof' just verbal claims, HR swept in under the rug with a toke reassignment for her. Big whoop. She reports to a manager between her and WH instead of just to him. However this ends for him and me, any proof the PI comes up with will be going to the company.

And there is the slight matter that she is also married. This is practically a Lifetime movie. My intermediary is a snoop and she found a marriage certificate from 5 years ago but no divorce filing. So she emailed WH and asked him if this was his POS. He said yes, that years ago, she married a friend from Haiti who was going to be deported. So I have that email and the marriage certificate which will also go to their very conservative insurance company employer along with the applicable federal law against green card marriages.

Right now though I'm walking a fine line because I don't want to piss him off and make him difficult about any settlement. And I will be honest (oh, please be gentle with the criticism - it's only been 5 weeks and I am trying to be tough!) I really shy away from hurting him. I know! I know! But it's a 20 year habit I'm trying to break. I found myself almost asking friends today to write him some nice 'thinking about you' emails because the fact that he told him mother he has no friends broke my heart. But I didn't ask them.


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

You need to get to the angry stage Baxter!


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## Kaci (Mar 11, 2013)

Squeakr said:


> I would cancel the MC if I were you. It is a waste of money so long as he is still in the A, and it sounds like the MC is looking for excuses to appease you. It should be you that is looking for the red flags and bringing them up to the MC and not the other way around. Sounds like the MC is supporting your WH's actions in a way, by lessening the effects of them through making them seem like normal things that happen due to his age, job, and recent circumstances/ life events (this doesn't sound good or normal to me and I can see the MC trying to downplay everything to make it seem not as bad as it truly is).
> 
> Good Luck.


:iagree:

Yeah, what kind of MC is this & and does she have a crush on him or something?

While you're deciding what to do with your life, take advantage of all of this time you have on your hands. Get pedicures, new hairstyle (keep it long, though), clothes, and maybe take a vacation. Not that you would purposely play games, but I would't go anywhere without lookin' good. You're going to feel better about yourself, get new attention (good for self-esteem) and he's gonna hear about it and be curious. Heck, he's probably already watching you from afar since you've gone no-contact.

Wishing you the best of luck, and hope you feel better soon.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Kaci said:


> :iagree:
> 
> *Yeah, what kind of MC is this & and does she have a crush on him or something?*
> 
> ...


Yeah, watch out since some therapists have had affairs with their patients.


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

Kaci said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Yeah, what kind of MC is this & and does she have a crush on him or something?
> 
> ...


Our MC was a male. I don't think he was downplaying anything but was more trying to point out to WH that there was nothing original going on here. He's just the typical MLC turning 40 after his father passed away working with a stupid young POS who developed a massive crush on him and he couldn't resist.

I don't think he's watching anything. I think he's either too busy feeling sorry for himself or too busy occupying himself with that POS.


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## Kaci (Mar 11, 2013)

[QUOTE
Has he moved all his 'stuff' out. Maybe box it up and have it sent ??? to his new place... all through your middle person of course.... really I'm just suggesting that you show him you are loving yourself enough to not put up with his cr*ppy behaviour and your moving onwards and upwards.

Treat yourself as you would your nearest and dearest best friend/sister etc... What would you tell her to do right now?[/QUOTE]


great advice!:smthumbup:


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

I received this in response to my impulsive email:

<Not sure if I am permitted to reply to this. And rather than write volumes, I will simply say, though the message was dismal and your statement true, I was happy to hear from you.>

Whatev.


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

I've drafted up a proposal to send to him tomorrow:

WH,
baxter hopes that the two of you can proceed with as little conflict and strife as possible and with minimal lawyer involvement. She asks that you keep your promises and not contest anything and cooperate to your fullest capacity. The following is her proposal:

•	$XXX,000 cash/investments in her name

•	$x,xxx per month alimony for 24 years (one year for each year the two of you have been together with an added 5 years for your adultery) adjusted 3% on the first of each year for cost of living.

•	Half of your XXXX pension

•	2007 Honda Element

•	Personal belongings, clothes and any desired furniture

•	Her name off the deed of the condominium

•	Her name listed as the beneficiary of a $500,000 life insurance policy on you

•	Your wedding ring

If you agree to these, she will contact her lawyer and have the paperwork for a collaborative divorce started.

Thanks, 
Intermediary



BTW, the investigator filmed the two of them spending all day together yesterday, shopping for his new apartment, getting McDonalds through the drive in. It was sickening to see.


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

baxter said:


> I KNOW! I just don't think I can do that right now. I don't think I'm brave enough, I don't think I can pull it off. I don't want to be divorced. I don't want to lose this marriage. I'm too afraid to do that.


Dear baxter,

Been reading your posts. Haven't read all of the responses so maybe this is redundant but in case it's not . . .

There's an old saying on TAM/CWI that, in order to save your marriage, you have to be prepared to lose it.

I think this applies in your case. The only thing that is likely to shake your WH from the fog of his affair is the reality that his marriage is over. As long as he has any hope of eventually returning to you, he is likely to continue to cheat.

So my advice would be to file all the necessary paper work and have him served with divorce papers ASAP.

In the meantime (and I know others have told you this), go completely silent -- no e-mails from you or exchanges from an intermediary. When he tries to contact you, ignore him for a while and then respond, "please direct any inquiries or comments to my lawyer."

I know this is hard for you but you have no other choice other than to continue to live in limbo, which really is no choice at all.

Be strong. You can get through this. He may even come crawling back to you but, if he doesn't, there is a good life ahead of you without him.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

baxter said:


> I've drafted up a proposal to send to him tomorrow:
> 
> WH,
> baxter hopes that the two of you can proceed with as little conflict and strife as possible and with minimal lawyer involvement. She asks that you keep your promises and not contest anything and cooperate to your fullest capacity. The following is her proposal:
> ...



Great draft! Let him see the reality of his decisions, which so far have been you waiting for him while he lives in rainbow and unicorn land with his skank. He can decide if she's is really worth the dismantling of his life, and if he decides it's not you can decide for yourself if you want him back. Going through with the divorce is really the best thing though, and if he pulls his head out of his arse after that you can always contemplate dating again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bbird1 (May 22, 2011)

You now know why his first marriage failed once a cheat always a cheat. This is the reason i would never place myself in a situation where even a rumor of infidelity could be called into question. Never not once.


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

bbird1 said:


> You now know why his first marriage failed once a cheat always a cheat. This is the reason i would never place myself in a situation where even a rumor of infidelity could be called into question. Never not once.


This is my husband's first marriage - it is my second.


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

I've sent him the proposal today. He emailed me today this long email all about how he thinks about me constantly and wants to see me but can't give her up. And not being allowed to see me (because of the NC) only makes more time for them. If I get time later tonight I will post it. It is a masterpiece of entitlement and lack of self awareness.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

baxter said:


> He emailed me today this long email all about how he thinks about me constantly and wants to see me but can't give her up.


I mean, seriously, WTF?

I can't even fathom this as rational thought. 

Your response, "Guess what, dude. You can't have both of us."


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

The NC is necessary for your own good. I hope you can continue to be strong in this regard.


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## baxter (Aug 6, 2013)

Last night his mother talked to him. She said she would pass on a message to me from him if he wanted. He said to tell me that he wants to see or speak to me. So this morning I told him he could email me. He emailed:

<I simply thought that the distance is terrible for us. I miss you and thought it might be nice to get together for coffee one night. Even if decaf. You can even bring the intermediary if you wish.>

I emailed back saying I agree - I miss him and the distance is between us is awful. But are you still seeing her?

His response:

<The short answer to your last question is Yes.

I don't know how to leave someone I love. And yes I get the irony as it pertains to you and I. I think about you all the time and know what you expect of me in order to see you and move forward in our relationship. But I have been unable to walk away from my relationship with her. And now that I cannot see or talk with you, there is a much greater imbalance. I always felt that our marriage counseling was awful, because it could only begin once I have taken steps to destroy yet another relationship. Recall that, right or wrong, I did not willingly reveal my affair - only threat of discovery through another individual forced my hand. For that I feel weak and ashamed - that I would have continued in secret. But in so much as I would not have been able to be available as much as she desired, eventually I think my relationship with her would have imploded. She would have had time on her hands and I would still have been going home to you every night. One of her attempts to end things with me would likely have stuck. 

But now, things are much different. I live by myself. She lives by herself. You've asked that I not contact you. 

There is a path by which you and I could be together again. But a lot of planets would have to align:

1. POSow and I would have to become strictly platonic and be complacent with that. Whether and how this happens, I don't know. Overexposure? My inability to leave our marriage? But to date, I have hurt so many people I've grown tired of it. And now the only two to add more pain to is she and I. 

2. You and I would have to spend at least some time with each other.

3. Either through a counselor or just by ourselves, we have to gain a mutual understanding of the reasons for the affair. In my mind, this is critical to understanding whether moving forward is possible. And I contend that this discussion and examination CAN take place without my first destroying my relationship with her. I discuss it routinely with my own counselor. My IC is helpful and does not judge. She has provided me with comfort and insight on matters. I feel the reasons are complex and numerous and more far-reaching than 'love' itself.

So, if by my answer to your question of whether I am still seeing her precludes our scheduling a moment to visit over coffee or something: I understand. But I wanted you to know why I suggested it.

Love,
WH

My simple and succinct response:
<All you've said in this email is that I am your backup plan.>

And then my intermediary emailed him my financial settlement proposal.

Have you every read anything more entitled, self absorbed, or lacking in self awareness? Even his mother told me tonight that he is too far gone and I should do what I have to do.


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

Baxter, he's a pompous ass!!


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Honestly, I don't understand how you can even entertain staying with your husband given this littany of selfishness.

Your response was perfect.

I'm very glad you are respecting yourself enough to move forward in this manner.

I will bet that sometime either right before the D is final, or at some point thereafter, their relationship will die, and he will come back begging you to come back to him.

When this happens, DONT.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

baxter said:


> Last night his mother talked to him. She said she would pass on a message to me from him if he wanted. He said to tell me that he wants to see or speak to me. So this morning I told him he could email me. He emailed:
> 
> <I simply thought that the distance is terrible for us. I miss you and thought it might be nice to get together for coffee one night. Even if decaf. You can even bring the intermediary if you wish.>
> 
> ...


Oh, and I forgot, I love it that he thinks switching his relationship with her to platonic would be a path for you to be together again. Can you just see it now, little miss homewrecker coming to family picnics as the platonic friend, watching your kid's game, a coming to movie night as a friend. Yeah, you MIGHT just be okay with that, as long as the sex stopped.

Kick this guy to the curb. Now.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Well, he apparently does know how to leave someone he loves.

He betrays the person like a coward, breaks her heart, and forces her to be the adult and make the right decision.

He is a man-child. Such entitlement. I'm so sorry for your pain. I hope the NC helps. A serious 180, with no e-mail exchanges like the one you've just had, will help even more.


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

baxter said:


> . . . *Have you every read anything more entitled, self absorbed, or lacking in self awareness?* Even his mother told me tonight that he is too far gone and I should do what I have to do.


No.

You know now what you need to do.


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

Baxter.... Your husband's email response is hard for anyone with rational thought to wrap their minds around. This counselor he mentions is doing him a great disservice.
As hard as I'm working on my marriage, I never thought I would be encouraging someone to get out of theirs; He is indeed very selfish and far gone. He definitely doesn't understand what love is.


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

Certainly a masterpiece of foolish logic administered from your husband. As I said before, if he's anything like you described before the affair...he will "wake up." You can only control your actions and take care of yourself.


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## Busy Accountant (Mar 15, 2013)

Hi Baxter

I have been following your thread and admire the way you have handled such a tough situation.

Your H's email is either a grand attempt at cake eating and manipulation or a shameless self-pity party. He is setting this up that he is a victim of circumstances beyond his control. I would also say that it appears that he is keeping OW around as a security blanket in case the two of you don't make it, hiding behind the "addiction" excuse of course. The IC who is providing "comfort and insight" has a lot of work to do.

Your response was way more dignified than mine would have been. I would have simply responded..."are you out of your f'ing mind?"

Continue 180 and NC. I don't think the recent exchange was productive. Next time he asks for your audience, you can have your intermediary tell him so.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Busy Accountant said:


> Your H's email is either a grand attempt at cake eating and manipulation or a shameless self-pity party. He is setting this up that he is a victim of circumstances beyond his control.


I agree.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

alte Dame said:


> I agree.


Yep


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

How are you doing Baxter?


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