# Reconciliation - Back and Forth Anger vs. Forgiveness



## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

Hello,

I recently posted on here about my husband and I, but ended up deleting my thread. My husband and I are trying to reconcile after my short affair was discovered. 

In a time of low self-esteem, desperation, and reverting to my "party days" I met a guy that told me all the right things and fell for it. It was short lived (a kiss and 2 overnights over 3 weeks), and I can't believe myself for doing it. It was the wrong way to deal with a sh***y situation in my marriage. I gave up. 

My husband decided, after three days of me staying at my mom's after the discovery, that he couldn't go through with a divorce, he wanted to change- to be less angry and depressed all the time. We both wanted to cool off on drinking and hurting each other, but that didn't happen right away. I struggled with weekend party days (no infidelity), and he continued to use me as an emotional punching bag when he got frustrated. OM is completely out of the picture. Doesn't even live in the state anymore. After several weeks of me screwing up, him threatening divorce, a week of silent treatment, he "takes me back", I decided enough is enough. No more drinking for me. I said to myself if he could forgive me for the last incident (went out to drink with friends without telling him), I would make a huge effort to let that weekend lifestyle go. And I have. However, I went to visit my grandmother last weekend, taking our toddler with me, and came back to an angry husband who now wants a divorce. His weekend alone reminded him of what happened and how his life would be without me. 
He spent the weekend at bars, concerts, playing golf with friends who suggested he get a "hall pass" allowing him to do the same thing to me that I did to him, and it made him angry. I feel blind-sided by this because we were doing fine last week. We had plans to go on a mini-vacation to the beach and had bigger plans for the future. 

I don't want to be selfish but the back and forth is killing me. It's painful to see a future every time we reconcile, only for him to get angry and threaten divorce. I'm trying to understand his feelings and be patient. I know I traumatized him and could have ruined our family. The whole situation just hurts and I don't know how to show him how sorry I am. He doesn't believe anything I say and I don't blame him. He doesn't believe in counseling. I just don't know what to do. Give him his "hall pass"? Take the blows every time they come around? I know this effects our child when she sees him blow up on me or when we argue. I'm just at a loss. But I don't want to give up on our marriage and our family again.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

you are trying to rug sweep. This is going to take a long time until he knows what he wants to do.

You need to show remorse, you are not, by not taking his abuse, you are showing him his feelings still don't matter.

You needed to think about your child and family while you were boinking the OM. It is too late for that now, unless you show total remorse and work to heal your H.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

I'm absolutely not trying to rug sweep. If anything, I want to go to counseling so we can learn how to respect each other. 

I am fully aware that I was NOT thinking when the affair happened. It was stupid. My husband has a history of emotional abusing me. This is something he claimed he wanted to work on as part of reconciliation. Does this just get absolved and continue to go on freely because I'm the bad guy now? 

Please note I am not blaming my decisions on the problems we had. That was my bad decision, just like it would be if I chose to drink or do drugs to cope. I'm just saying the problem is still there. It's still painful; I'm just dealing with it the responsible way this time by being patient and trying to get us into counseling. Counseling he refused to go to.


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

I caught my wife texting another guy while out of town on a business trip.

My wife's parents live 2 hours + away. We have two kids, 5 and 3. Once a month, she drives up with the kids to see her parents. Sometimes I go, sometimes I do not. I used to treasure the times I was home alone. Quiet, get some house or yard projects done. Watch a ball game, god forbid.

Now? I trigger like hell. Last week she went up there with the kids for an overnight. She checked in frequently, and I know she has nothing going on in this town. But being home alone still brought back the whole situation.

So understand, when you were away, this is all he thought about. Answer all his questions. Try to be as empathetic as possible to what he is thinking/ feeling.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

And no it shouldn't be a license for him to be emotionally abusive toward you
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

Thanks Phillyguy. I never considered he would be triggered. I thought he'd be happy I chose to do something positive, rather than put myself in an environment that might influence my efforts to stop drinking. I originally planned on going to his concert with him. We have so many little issues, sometimes I hyper focus on those.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

Do you find yourself considering divorce every time something triggers your anger?


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

Do I understand correctly. You had an affair. You left for a while. Then Came back. Continued to drink and party without your h while trying to start R. 

Is that correct?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 38m3kids (Sep 29, 2011)

Almost 4 years post her affair, which sounds similar to yours. Life changes and people change post affair. I know for me, I stayed for the kids, and my feelings for her have changed forever. Good luck.. I hope your husband is a better man than me.


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

Sorry about the mess.

When your H found out about the betrayal, did you confess or how did he find out?

Have you written a timeline of the affair for him?
Did you use protection and have you been tested for stds?


put yourself in his shoes for a moment. The betrayal is like a death, but it is different. He is hurting and he does not know how to handle this pain. He has the anger, but the anger does not help. He can't control the pain, and he can't trust that it will not happen again. 

He has lost a lot of self-esteem. He feels like your backup plan and feels like less of a man. 

He is in such pain that he can't find his way out. He feels hopeless to stop the pain and can't control that it will not happen again. 

Your marriage may have problems, we all do. I used to think that I was a good husband and father, almost married for 40 years this summer. But 3 and 1/2 years ago, it all came tumbling down. I was hurting, so I was miserable and did not realize that I wanted her to hurt the way I was hurting. (I did not want her to hurt the way that I was hurting.) 

But I did not know how to grieve. I still don't. 

I do wish you well. It would have been better to get a D rather than cheat. The cheating drops a bomb on the marriage and blows everything up. 

Have you stopped all contact with the OM? If you do write a timeline of the affair and all that happened and why, that will help him. But it will take time for the anger, denial, and grief to work out of his system.

Many days I just wanted to die. but we are still in this mess, some days better, some days not so good.

It will take years to work thru this, not just weeks. 

I do hope you happiness for you and your family. 

If you can help your H to understand why it happened and help him with his self-esteem, that will be good. Just think how you would feel if he cheated on you. 

I still wish I knew the why with my wife.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

What exactly constitutes emotional abuse to you?

Him yelling at you for cheating on him?

If he won't go to counseling, then go without him.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

your posts still don't show remorse. you sound like you want him to get it over it on your timeline. How long has known about the affair?


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

If you truly want to save your marriage, you need to have a sit down discussion with your husband.

Tell him you understand that he's angry and it's OK for him to vent from time to time. But please not in front of the children and not to the point of being abusive. Otherwise you're willing to take your medicine to demonstrate you are remorseful.

Part of demonstrating remorse is being accountable for your time away from him. That doesn't include partying, and GNO's without him. You should limit your time away from him as much as possible. You should invite him to go with you wherever you go. Give him that choice. But when he doesn't, understand that his time alone will likely cause him to trigger. And that is all the more true if he's drinking while you're gone.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

38m3kids said:


> Almost 4 years post her affair, which sounds similar to yours. Life changes and people change post affair. I know for me, I stayed for the kids, and my feelings for her have changed forever. Good luck.. I hope your husband is a better man than me.



I think any man who attempts reconciliation is a good man. Do you have any feelings for your wife at all? I just think kids pick up on that resentment... I don't know if I can stay together for the kids. I just don't know. It's a tough situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

workindad said:


> Do I understand correctly. You had an affair. You left for a while. Then Came back. Continued to drink and party without your h while trying to start R.
> 
> Is that correct?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He told me to leave when he found out. I stayed at my mom's house for a few days until he called me and said he couldn't do it. Yes, I did continue drinking and partying. Really not a good decision.. As I said in my original post he seemed to forgive me for the last outing and I decided to stop drinking all together for now. No contact with my party friend a for 2, almost 3 weeks. It's not much but it's something.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

rrhouse said:


> Hello,
> 
> I recently posted on here about my husband and I, but ended up deleting my thread. My husband and I are trying to reconcile after my short affair was discovered.
> 
> ...


Well, we have the betrayer's side of the story. 

How 'bout bringing him on here and let's see how he views things.


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

rrhouse said:


> Do you find yourself considering divorce every time something triggers your anger?


Divorce? No. Not at this point anyway. Anger? Yes. Lots of it. Depression? Yes. Frustration? Yes.

I will say though It's been 6 months. She's gone out once without me in those 6 months, a girlfriend came to visit and they went out to eat, home by 8:00. If she was going out to bars I'd be really pissed about it, to be completely honest.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

I can't respond individually to each post, but the OM has been out of the picture since my husband called me back home to reconcile. I sent the man a text message saying I'm going to work it out with my husband. The guy lives out of the state now, from what I hear. 

My husband found out by reading my texts. He now has access to all my social media accounts, phone, $$, I tell him where I'm going, check in frequently, etc. No we didn't get tested for STD's. It was brought up once but never happened. 

And the emotional abuse has been going on long before the affair. He acknowledged it and chose to ignore it. By emotional abuse I mean belittling, controlling finances, name calling (immature, teenager, lazy, stupid, needy), withholding affection. I'm a work at home mom, enrolled in school full time, about to enroll in a graduate program. He tells me all the time I could be doing more, cleaning more, making more money. Trust me when I say I'm doing the best I can in that department.

I think that answers most of the questions.

I don't understand fully what he's going through because it didn't happen to me. I'm trying to be patient though. I realize he probably was triggered last weekend while I was gone last weekend. I'm trying really hard to not think of myself when stuff like this happens but it's painful for me too. It's not like I get to look at myself every day and feel like nothing happened. I feel disgusting and embarrassed and weak. I wish I could go back in time and tell that other guy to f*** off. I hate seeing my husband in so much pain. I hate that my kid might go through a divorce because of me. I can't take it back though, so I don't know what to do now. If there's a chance of reconciliation I want to take it. Sorry for the extra long post. I have a lot of emotions today.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Divorce? No. Not at this point anyway. Anger? Yes. Lots of it. Depression? Yes. Frustration? Yes.
> 
> I will say though It's been 6 months. She's gone out once without me in those 6 months, a girlfriend came to visit and they went out to eat, home by 8:00. If she was going out to bars I'd be really pissed about it, to be completely honest.


Fair enough. That was a really horrible way to deal with it on my part.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Why would you want to stay married to a nasty, controlling pr!ck?
And you'll find that here on TAM, once you cheat (as a woman) you have no credibility. Nothing your hb ever did matters and everything you say is a lie you made up to justify your cheating. Most of these guys don't believe he was abusive, we as conniving women just make that up to justify things. It matters not how nasty or abusive he's been, you still have to kiss his a$$.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

Good luck! It sounds like you are trying to do the right things by him and your family. Full transparency. Counseling too. He needs to learn how to not be abusive to you as well.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> Why would you want to stay married to a nasty, controlling pr!ck?
> And you'll find that here on TAM, once you cheat (as a woman) you have no credibility. Nothing your hb ever did matters and everything you say is a lie you made up to justify your cheating. Most of these guys don't believe he was abusive, we as conniving women just make that up to justify things. It matters not how nasty or abusive he's been, you still have to kiss his a$$.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have this fantasy that we will get counseling and I will get a nice job and be able contribute more financially, taking away some of the stress and pressure. Maybe when our kid goes to school we will have less stress there and everything will be better. Maybe.


Why would I lie on an anonymous forum? I really have nothing to lose by telling a bunch of strangers about my ugly situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

rrhouse said:


> I have this fantasy that we will get counseling and I will get a nice job and be able contribute more financially, taking away some of the stress and pressure. Maybe when our kid goes to school we will have less stress there and everything will be better. Maybe.
> 
> 
> Why would I lie on an anonymous forum? I really have nothing to lose by telling a bunch of strangers about my ugly situation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh I agree.....why would you lie? This is just what i've observed here, at least for women. Men with abusive wives don't get the same vitriol. I've even seen comments expressing surprise that it took them that long to cheat.

I hope it works out for you. Why don't you tell him he can have his hall pass if you can treat him like sh!t (yell, belittle, call him stupid, etc) and he has to take it, then you'll be even. Let him see what it feels like.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

I try to be gender neutral, even though I'm a guy. If a wayward spouse comes here for help, male or female, I think we should treat them with respect and fairly. 

It's the cheaters that come on here and brag, as if they are proud of their actions that rub a lot of people the wrong way. Those I will get snippy with, male or female.


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

So you continued your affair when you went to stay with your mother. 

I would expect your husband to be confused as well as angry depressed and many other negative emotions. Your actions do not seem to convey the same message that your words do. 

You cannot commit to r and lie and keep doing gno activities. 

Try patience and consistency with your message. 2 or 3 weeks is not enough. R wil take some time. He Ned's the chance to heal at his own pace. I have no doubt that he would like to feel better as soon as possible also. 

I do wish you well on your road to r. 

There are successful r stories on tam and perhaps one of those will help you in some way if you will take the time to read up 

Best
WD.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

workindad said:


> So you continued your affair when you went to stay with your mother.
> 
> I would expect your husband to be confused as well as angry depressed and many other negative emotions. Your actions do not seem to convey the same message that your words do.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the well wishes. I didn't continue the affair but I did talk to him, mostly about the big blowup and asking what my husband said to him. Told him to avoid hanging out at the bar my husband was hanging out at.

I'm going to try to be more patient with his emotions, but keep a firm boundary when it comes to the outbursts in front of our daughter, and the name calling that's unrelated to the affair. It's just unnecessary. I'm not lazy/ a mooch/ stupid/ attention deficit/ not doing anything right, or any other insult he comes up with when he's stressed about other stuff. That's uncalled for. Otherwise he can vent about the affair all the wants, he has that right.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LastDance (Jun 8, 2012)

I'm sorry for the pain all of you are going through rrhouse. Having been on the other side of your POV I'll try to give you some insight on why he may be acting the way he is. OK? Remember this is only my opinion though, so it may not be a total fit for your situation. I'll apologize now as I tend to talk... a lot.  Especially when I see someone in pain who needs some support.

If your husband is against counseling then please go on your own; after all you can only truly control/change one person: yourself. Help yourself, you help your marriage. Right now you seem to have both fallen into a pattern (if you can nearly say word for word what he'll say next or what you'll say again you are definitely in a destructive pattern), and btw all of his emotional swings are fairly common for a betrayed spouse. One day I was sure I was over it and on the other side and then I'd have a bad dream (for example) and feel like the scab had been ripped off my healing and I was back where I was in the beginning. It sucked for us BOTH. 

It truly does take many of us a very long time to get back into feeling safe with a spouse once we are betrayed. You'll need to be completely transparent with him. Be open about where you are going, who you were with, how long you'll be gone and share any and all passwords with him. It sucks at times having to do this I know that listening to my hubby, but remember it likely won't be forever and he needs to feel safe and that you are being completely honest with him. So try hard to be patient with him while he heals. I read where you are already doing many of those things so good for you rrhouse. You are making some very good first steps. 

On his healing: YOU play a huge part in it. How long it takes and if he can depends largely on how you play this. So don't assume to know how long this process will take. It takes how ever long he needs, not how long you are willing to take his ups and downs. Sorry but thems the facts. It will be hard for you both. Again be patient with him and yourself. You are not a horrible person, you made a mistake. In time he'll see that. Hopefully. If not you will know you made a sincere loving effort to save your family and help him. 

I had little flash backs that could be triggered but some pretty simple things....seeing a movie that involved someone cheating, seeing someone who looked so in love, thinking back to a happy time only to realize he was actually cheating at the time, heck seeing an old couple walking hand in hand and me wondering if we would be like that some day or if it was all over for us.... so many things took on a weird alternate reality of sorts. So much so it seemed our whole marriage was a lie and our time together nothing like it seemed in my mind. 

Now I know how tempting it must have been when the OM was basically putting a soothing balm on all your hurts and wrongs done by your husband. BTDT but didn't fall for it. What I mean is your OM may have been like many folks who see a woman (or a man) in a troubled relationship and know they are easy picking. Sorry hun, but chances are high that is how your OM saw you. Don't believe me, watch others at work or the bar. You'll start to see things as they really are if you really open your eyes to what is going on. ie: They say how they would never treat like your spouse does, they would never take you for granted, and how you deserve better and of course they are right there making sure you know it is THEM who will give you these things. But remember they are brand new in your life they won't have dealt with reality like you and your spouse have: bills, home, work and a child. They have never seen you sick or tired and cranky for example either. They have only seen you looking your best most likely not sick and struggling to comfort a baby. Again just some examples. 

NO. It is not okay at all for him to continue to abuse you emotionally or any other way like he did in the past. That said you need to be aware he will lash out and he will hurt you. That is what hurt people do. You need to get into counseling for yourself ASAP to help yourself heal and learn how to make any changes you need to make in yourself. Like why you have put up with behaviors that led you to step out of your marriage for those emotional needs you have. No one should have to tolerate emotional abuse. So go find out from a helpful pro why you have put up with it. 

I know he is resisting seeing anyone but if you continue to do the same things nothing will ever change. If he sees you changing he'll have no real choice but to change himself or move on. Savvy? hmmmm it's like changing the ipod from a fast song to a slow one ..... you could try to keep dancing like you were to that fast song, but you'd have a hellva' time doing it well with a slow song now playing. It's all about those patterns I talked about earlier in my reply. Break the patterns and things will change. 

Hang in there & do not engage in any sex until you get tested for STDs. Also talk with your doctor and see if you'd benefit from any meds to help with anxiety and/or depression. It's going to be a hard bumpy ride and you'll need to take extra steps to take care of yourself physically and emotionally. Your little one needs you and you cannot help anyone if you let your self get emotionally exhausted or sick. OK? 

I don't know how you feel about hugs of encouragement from a stranger, but it sure sounds like you could use one. So if it's okay please consider yourself hugged and know you are not a bad woman. You really aren't; you made a mistake, you've learned from it and you are taking steps to make it right.... in my book that makes you one hellva' woman:thumbup:. 

Kindly,
LastDance


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

rrhouse said:


> I can't respond individually to each post, but the OM has been out of the picture since my husband called me back home to reconcile. I sent the man a text message saying I'm going to work it out with my husband. The guy lives out of the state now, from what I hear.
> 
> My husband found out by reading my texts. He now has access to all my social media accounts, phone, $$, I tell him where I'm going, check in frequently, etc. No we didn't get tested for STD's. It was brought up once but never happened.
> 
> ...


If you really want to R, stop blaming your cheating on your bad marriage. Your husband might have been verbally abusive, but you were taking it, and not fighting back. Having an affair didn't solve that problem, it compounded it. You should have either stood up for yourself, or left, not cheated on him. He called you immature, stupid, and said you act like a teenager.. which one of those things isn't true? Did you counter those arguments with facts, or did he have reasons to think they are truth? Like you lying, sneaking, spending money on things you shouldn't (boyfriends?)/.. Have you given that some thought? Why he's saying these things? Party on...

(I'm sure he's not perfect, but when one is cheating, and then calling out the other one for being a bad spouse... well.... I have to go with the one that isn't lying)


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

When you blame shift your poor choice to cheat onto your betrayed spouse, you are not only saying "I dropped my pants for another", you are also saying "because you made me do it".


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

russell28 said:


> If you really want to R, stop blaming your cheating on your bad marriage. Your husband might have been verbally abusive, but you were taking it, and not fighting back. Having an affair didn't solve that problem, it compounded it. You should have either stood up for yourself, or left, not cheated on him. He called you immature, stupid, and said you act like a teenager.. which one of those things isn't true? Did you counter those arguments with facts, or did he have reasons to think they are truth? Like you lying, sneaking, spending money on things you shouldn't (boyfriends?)/.. Have you given that some thought? Why he's saying these things? Party on...
> 
> (I'm sure he's not perfect, but when one is cheating, and then calling out the other one for being a bad spouse... well.... I have to go with the one that isn't lying)



"Please note I am not blaming my decisions on the problems we had. That was my bad decision, just like it would be if I chose to drink or do drugs to cope." 

Directly quoted from a previous post made by me... 

before the affair he said those things because I am an optimistic person. Some days I'm happy and I try to see the best of things. He thinks that's an immature and stupid way to look at things. I'm also 26.. so when he called me a teenager (pre-affair) it was because I'm much younger than him and still have a desire to do big things with my life. He's kind of jaded, I'm a dreamer. 

The cheating certainly did compound that issue, and yes, going to girl's night outs was juvenile. Hence why I'm stopping that behavior. At the same time I'm not going to let him use cheating as an excuse to continue bad behavior that's been going on for years. He said it himself that he felt better coming home and being mean to me to decompress. Like a punching bag.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

Here's the thing. Had you addressed the emotional abuse without cheating you'd be on much more solid ground. But once you cheated you lost the "moral high ground" in any argument that you have with him.

Is it fair? Right? No but that's how it is.

Get back to counseling. Go alone if he doesn't want to go but let him know you are going so he sees you are serious about it. At counseling you will learn (a) how to deal with him as he is, (b) how to change him or (c) how to leave him.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Chris Taylor said:


> Get back to counseling. Go alone if he doesn't want to go but let him know you are going so he sees you are serious about it.


:iagree: You two sound like you really don't know how to go about achieving what seems to be your shared goal--successful reconciliation. It's like you are experimenting with self-medication instead of seeing a doctor.

Your H's friends and their "hall-pass" idea are full of sh!t. If he is listening to their advice then you are in trouble. All the more reason for competent professional counseling.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

Chris Taylor said:


> Here's the thing. Had you addressed the emotional abuse without cheating you'd be on much more solid ground. But once you cheated you lost the "moral high ground" in any argument that you have with him.
> 
> Is it fair? Right? No but that's how it is.
> 
> Get back to counseling. Go alone if he doesn't want to go but let him know you are going so he sees you are serious about it. At counseling you will learn (a) how to deal with him as he is, (b) how to change him or (c) how to leave him.


I brought it up multiple times over at least a year and a half before drifting. His final response was that he wasn't a little b***h and didn't have time for my emotions. Last words verbatim were, "It's not my problem. You deal with it." 

We've never been to counseling but it's something I want to do for myself, if anything. I don't want to make this about me or place blame. At the same time, I'm still a human being and I made a mistake by dealing with a bad situation the wrong way. I still have a lot of pain I'm trying to suppress while we deal with the bigger issue at hand, but the sh***y situation is still there. It still hurts. It upsets me that he's using this affair as a blanket excuse for everything that happened before. 

For example, he started drinking more heavily than ever about 2 years ago, and would come home and sit in his "throne", as I call it, watching TV until he caught a good buzz. Then he'd walk around the house nitpicking and talking down to and about me and anyone mentioned in conversation. (My mom, his sister, our friends, etc.) Everyone is beneath him. 

After the affair, he still does this stuff from time to time. Granted, he's improved a bit, but now when he does it it's my fault because I betrayed him. He's depressed now, because I betrayed him. What made him depressed before? I want to be supportive and help him heal through the mess I caused, but there is still pain from things that happened before, and things that keep happening. I hope that makes sense. And I hope that doesn't sound self-centered. I've always tried to push him to do something about this situation, and now it's like he's even less inclined to do so, because now he has a reason to act that way. 

Why do I stay? Why would I try to reconcile with someone who acts like that? Because there was a time when he was absolutely amazing, and happy, and romantic. The stress of life wore on both of us and we reacted differently. I buckled, and he's still here. That says something to me. Beneath all the crappy depressed behavior there's a man who I destroyed, yet he still wants me around. He saw the ugliest side of me and somehow is trying to forgive me, and that makes me believe there's a good man hiding under the depression and flat-out meanness. Again I apologize for rambling. We haven't been speaking much so I have overflowing thoughts about the situation.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

LastDance said:


> I'm sorry for the pain all of you are going through rrhouse. Having been on the other side of your POV I'll try to give you some insight on why he may be acting the way he is. OK? Remember this is only my opinion though, so it may not be a total fit for your situation. I'll apologize now as I tend to talk... a lot.  Especially when I see someone in pain who needs some support.
> 
> If your husband is against counseling then please go on your own; after all you can only truly control/change one person: yourself. Help yourself, you help your marriage. Right now you seem to have both fallen into a pattern (if you can nearly say word for word what he'll say next or what you'll say again you are definitely in a destructive pattern), and btw all of his emotional swings are fairly common for a betrayed spouse. One day I was sure I was over it and on the other side and then I'd have a bad dream (for example) and feel like the scab had been ripped off my healing and I was back where I was in the beginning. It sucked for us BOTH.
> 
> ...



Thank you so much. A lot of what you said resonates with me and I appreciate the advice. It puts things into a perspective I can understand. I'm glad I found this community of people for support during such a crazy time. Hearing from people who are on the other side makes me consider what I did that much more and fully understand the pain it causes.


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## DidntLearnMyLesson (Jun 25, 2014)

A relationship changes dramatically post affair. 
The BS becomes more vigilant, scrutinizing your every move and communication which will eventually turn to jealousy and paranoia. Random triggers will cause more resentment towards you. He will argue with you and prevent you from doing the things that you enjoy (having a few drinks, going out to have fun, seeing certain friends, etc... but will it stop there?) and you'll be ok with it out of guilt for your A. Eventually all that sacrificing on your part will make you resent him. Cant he see that you are trying - cant he just forgive you so you can both move on? His resentment and your guilt will wear both of you down and you'll want a "break" from this toxic relationship. Then it starts all over again like a vicious circle. 
don't go down this road. get professional help.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

OP. 

I'm 3+ years out, and so much has changed. I went from, "I will never R, will never take you back," to hating him, to verbally abusing him after the affair, as the anger and rage was so uncontrollable, to maybe there really is a way to get past this, forgiving and moving forward...together...
... but for over 2 yrs the triggers of anything, and everything in our life together caused it to be so toxic... and it all came from me,...the bs. 

I finally asked him to move away 5 months after the affair and we've been living apart for over 2years.

During these 2 yrs, we've been in 24/7 contact, no sexual intimacy w each other, but we are closer in many more ways now than we were then, not all of it good closeness, but trying for honest closeness at least. 

I dont know how it feels to be the male bs, but I do know it chances everything in the relationship from the moment of discovery on forward that the ww's just cant seem to comprehend. 

But if I were you, I'd look over the big picture. Look back, see what you see. Did you like it? Was it what you wanted? Was it it good? Not what it "could be," but what it was? Was it really working the way it should have been for both of you?

You both have to be on the same page in order to have a happy successful R. Both want it, both want to to try your might to make a go at it. Both be willing to accept each other, and the trust and believe each other's "sorry's"... 

3 years out, and so much has changed, I've changed so much, my life has changed so much. It has sped my past 3 years very quickly too, which really scares me when I realize how fast the next 3 will go... Like my h said to me the other day, "It's a shame while you,((me)) are trying to figure out what I want to do about this mess and how to move on, life is passing us by!" Yeah it is a shame, again, something we wish the ww didn't put us thur. 

-sammy


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

So he will not go to counseling.

Would he at least go to the gym, exercise and punch at the gym, rather than always expressing the anger at his family?

Yes, there is rage about the affair. He is lost. He can't trust. He is not grieving well. It will take time. He is so lost, he can't control the situation, can't fix it, can't get over the pain and depression. Does not feel like much of a man after you gave away something that used to be special.

It will take a long time, but he will have to find a way thru it. 

Some do find a good counselor. Some try to get thru it by the anger and get more and more angry. Some have to cry many times to get some grief out, like when someone died, only this affair is different. Some try to exercise and punch the anger out at the gym. 

Yes, some things work, some do not. Always expressing anger did not help. Some anger did have to be expressed limited to a certain agreed time period in discussing every aspect of the affair. Still do not know why, which can be one of the most important reasons. Did you use protection? Did you ever think about me and our kids? Am i just your backup plan? A written timeline would really help.

Hoever, the exercise and the crying. I do not like to admit that I cried. But I had to cry by myself, because my self-esteem took such a hit. So let him have his time where he can't be around you to cry. 

The exercise does help with the self-esteem. Hope you can help him see what good you see in him. You have to be honest, because he may not trust what you say.

I guess my wife is starting to see some of my good points. will be married for 40 years this summer.

She was so surprised that with my hard work that we were worth over a million. Not much anymore, but better than bankrupt. However, I hope she is here for other good points rather than just the money. 

Good luck with you and your family. Keep up the good boundaries and it will take years to get over the pain. But I hope it will be worth it.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

harrybrown, 

I think she is there because she see you are worth the weight in gold. You're a good man harrybrown! 

-sammy


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

rrhouse said:


> "Please note I am not blaming my decisions on the problems we had. That was my bad decision, just like it would be if I chose to drink or do drugs to cope."
> 
> Directly quoted from a previous post made by me...
> 
> ...



I guess my main point is that the last thing he wants to hear about is the problems before the affair and not talk about the affair.. or any talk that points to you choosing to have an affair because of something he did, and not because of your own faults and weaknesses. Imagine you just hit him in the head with a baseball bat, and when he asked why you did that.. you told him because of that time he poked you with a toothpick a long time ago, it really hurt but you forgot to mention it.. instead you chose to hit him in the head with a baseball bat years later.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

harrybrown said:


> However,* I hope she is here for other good points rather than just the money*.
> .


This is the saddest part about infidelity.. taking away the knowing, and turning it into hope.. 

Putting those questions into your BS' head.. it causes a massive amount of damage.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

harrybrown said:


> So he will not go to counseling.
> 
> Would he at least go to the gym, exercise and punch at the gym, rather than always expressing the anger at his family?
> 
> ...


You sound like a stand-up husband. I'm sorry you have to hope things will be ok, rather than have the security you got married for in the first place. My husband is at a point right now where he has no hope. Many of the things you mentioned are things he's saying to me. Was he my second choice? Am I only staying for financial security? Will I give up on him just as easily as I did the first time, if someone else comes along? 

I wish there was a way to prove to him that I wanted him all along, but I was broken down and dealt with it in the worst possible way. Now he's just waiting for me to screw him over again. That must be horrible. I feel so bad for taking away his security. Just saying "I'm so so sorry" seems cheap.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LastDance (Jun 8, 2012)

rrhouse said:


> I wish there was a way to prove to him that I wanted him all along, but I was broken down and dealt with it in the worst possible way. Now he's just waiting for me to screw him over again. That must be horrible. I feel so bad for taking away his security. Just saying "I'm so so sorry" seems cheap.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I got to the point I really hated it when DH would simply say, "I'm so sorry" because he would never say just what he was sorry about. Just a blanket apology. 

I know he was sorry but I needed actions ..... more than I was getting in those early times. Actions speak much clearer and louder than any words ever will. 

I don't mean to imply that an apology is nothing. But there comes a point when you just want to scream stop saying you're sorry and show me you are. Show me every day in little ways and big ones too that I can trust you again and you'll never take our marriage for granted again. Show me you love me and that I am right to trust you. Help me believe again. 

I know now that much of that has to do with me and my own mind set and how much I had or hadn't healed..... but it would have been so much easier then if he could have _showed me_ instead of told me he was sorry much sooner than he did. In my mind I'm sorry means, "I know I was wrong, and I know I hurt you and I will never hurt you like that again. Let me show you." 

From what you've written I believe you are "showing him" you are sorry. That's a very good thing. A very kind thing. And even though he is being an arse I'm hopeful in time he will see you are sorry by your actions and begin to feel a bit safer with you and your love for him. 

I'm probably not explaining it very well but I hope it makes some sort of sense to you rrhouse. 

Take care


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> Why would you want to stay married to a nasty, controlling pr!ck?
> And you'll find that here on TAM, once you cheat (as a woman) you have no credibility. Nothing your hb ever did matters and everything you say is a lie you made up to justify your cheating. Most of these guys don't believe he was abusive, we as conniving women just make that up to justify things. It matters not how nasty or abusive he's been, you still have to kiss his a$$.


Come on now, this isn't quite a fair assessment, and it doesn't appear to be at all representative of the comments that OP has drawn thus far in this thread.

ETA: OK, I've read a bit further into the thread, and I'm ready to sort of dial back ^this response a bit. But still, there are plenty of us guys here who truly do want to help, and do everything that we can to make our replies as neutral and constructive as possible. Granted, this is quite a bit easier to do in the case of a WS that shows _at least some_ remorse for his or her actions, as OP would seem to be doing.


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## sammy7111 (Apr 19, 2014)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## poida (Jan 17, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> Why would you want to stay married to a nasty, controlling pr!ck?
> And you'll find that here on TAM, once you cheat (as a woman) you have no credibility. Nothing your hb ever did matters and everything you say is a lie you made up to justify your cheating. Most of these guys don't believe he was abusive, we as conniving women just make that up to justify things. It matters not how nasty or abusive he's been, you still have to kiss his a$$.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There is a reason why people who cheat have little credibility on this site. It is because that people who have been cheated on know just how much the cheater minimises, lies, denies and re-writes the versions of events to avoid the guilt to find their self worth again (once again - selfish). Cheaters will generally do anything and say anything they can to make it all OK in their mind and in their world again. Relationship issues (everybody has them people!!!) prior to that point are always exaggerated, always blown out of proportion. THAT is why cheaters lack credibility, male or female.

I would just love to hear the other side of the story.

No cheater can possibly understand how heartbreaking and demoralising it is to be cheated on. It sounds like RR expects this to be over in a matter of a few months (I can't see where she has said how long it has been). But for me, it is going to take me years, and I made the decision to leave after 6 months.

When I read RR's emails, it just reeks of minimisation to me.
And as for a leave pass! Don't get me started. 

BUT, I do support R where the cheater is willing to do all the heavy lifting, do a lot of research and REALLY work hard to make a connection with their partner again.

RR, have you asked your self WHY you struggle to see what happened from your husband's point of view? Is it the same reasoning as to why you cheated in the first place. Work out if you have it in you to truly empathise with your husband. If not, do him a favour and let him go.


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## poida (Jan 17, 2014)

Another little point I wanted to make was this.....

Until you have helped your husband through the trauma of cheating, everything else that happened prior to that moment is off bounds and irrelevant in my opinion.

First you heal the pain, THEN work on your relationship.

A lot of WW tend to continuously use what happened before the affair to justify what they did when the BS is upset, arguing etc.
This is a big NO-NO and takes serious hard work to put aside your own relationship concerns until the BS is ready. I think that is the hardest for WW to comprehend.


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## poida (Jan 17, 2014)

poida said:


> Another little point I wanted to make was this.....
> 
> Until you have helped your husband through the trauma of cheating, everything else that happened prior to that moment is off bounds and irrelevant in my opinion.
> 
> ...


Sorry, and in my opinion, this is why he does NOT want to go to counselling. But... ask him yourself and find out....


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

poida said:


> There is a reason why people who cheat have little credibility on this site. It is because that people who have been cheated on know just how much the cheater minimises, lies, denies and re-writes the versions of events to avoid the guilt to find their self worth again (once again - selfish). Cheaters will generally do anything and say anything they can to make it all OK in their mind and in their world again. Relationship issues (everybody has them people!!!) prior to that point are always exaggerated, always blown out of proportion. THAT is why cheaters lack credibility, male or female.
> 
> I would just love to hear the other side of the story.
> 
> ...



You're right. It's easy to try and think of all the horrible stuff he did to drive me to make the decision I did. He'll tell you that in the end, right before the affair, he was being worse than ever. However, that doesn't give me the license to cheat. GusPolinksi suggested a book to me called How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair, and I read through it yesterday. I've been making some big mistakes in the healing process. It's helping me empathize better and put away my issues for now. Reading my first post in this thread, I can see alot of selfishness. It's been four months since his d-day and I don't expect it to be over any time soon. My biggest issue was the name calling and threatening divorce every other week. It's gut-wrenching.

I can't imagine how gut-wrenching it was for him to discover the affair, but the pain I feel when he says it's over, again and again, is intense. So I'll liken it to that. If that's what he feels every day, I don't know how he functions and I feel so awful that I did that to him. 

Yesterday I apologized for being so selfish and asked him what, if anything, I can do to help him heal. Right now he says there is nothing. He can't even help himself. He's here for our daughter right now, and doesn't love me the way he used to. Rightfully so. He's still here though, and still wants to be "intimate", as he said (I asked if he wanted to separate but stay in the same house for a while). He thinks we'll both never look at each other the same way again, because he is my second choice, and I am unfaithful. I just told him he was never second choice. I made the decision I did in the fog of anger and a broken heart- I thought it was over and I gave up. I made a selfish mistake. He was pretty friendly for the rest of the day, so I hope he thought I was sincere. Between this forum and the book I read, I feel I was able to make some great progress, and I appreciate that. I just hope I can be patient from here on out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

rrhouse said:


> No we didn't get tested for STD's. It was brought up once but never happened.


Go get tested, don't wait for your H to do it first. Then share the results with him--written results from the actual testing agency.



rrhouse said:


> ... *I'm a work at home mom, enrolled in school full time, about to enroll in a graduate program.* He tells me all the time I could be doing more, cleaning more, making more money. *Trust me when I say I'm doing the best I can in that department*.


Um, that is a matter of perception for both of you.

How long have you been in school and not working?

How long will it take to recoup the expense of you going to college? You're adding a lot of expense, presumably, onto his shoulders while you study. Maybe you should consider getting a job and backpeddling on the graduate degree.

You may think getting the graduate degree is doing all you can in the income department. Depending on the degree, that may not be a net gain to the family income for many years or even at all. And it definitely is NOT bringing home money now.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

michzz said:


> Go get tested, don't wait for your H to do it first. Then share the results with him--written results from the actual testing agency.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How long have I been in school and not working? Never. 
I said I'm a WORK at home mom-meaning I WORK from my house, while my child sleeps, and then take care of her all day. The cost of childcare is insane, and there is no guarantee that your child is in the right hands. Me staying at home is something we agreed on, I took up a job on my own accord. He doesn't believe in daycare. And my degree is being paid for with grants and loans. Something I plan to pay off independently. I'm not sure what more I can do there. 
Today I just took up a new job with substantially better pay, based on my anticipated graduation (August 8). I've also been looking into part time preschool for the little one, because she needs the socialization and preparation for kindergarten.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

poida said:


> There is a reason why people who cheat have little credibility on this site. It is because that people who have been cheated on know just how much the cheater minimises, lies, denies and re-writes the versions of events to avoid the guilt to find their self worth again (once again - selfish). Cheaters will generally do anything and say anything they can to make it all OK in their mind and in their world again. Relationship issues (everybody has them people!!!) prior to that point are always exaggerated, always blown out of proportion. THAT is why cheaters lack credibility, male or female.
> 
> I would just love to hear the other side of the story.
> 
> ...


Fair enough, and I appreciate your post. I guess I see a fine line between what you call minimizing/rewriting and an honest acknowledgment of what was going on. An abusive spouse is an abusive spouse whether they get cheated on or not, and a spouse that treats their partner poorly treats them poorly whether they get cheated on or not. The fact that she chose a very poor way to deal with it doesn't mean she's necessarily justifying or rewriting, he could very well have been a pr!ck before all of this. Acknowledging bad behavior is not the same as saying you deserve to be cheated on.

This R	can't work if she's not allowed to deal with his abusive behavior. Everyone should do heavy lifting for bad behavior; her for her affair and him for his abusive behavior. He doesn't get a pass nor is it fair to assume she simply made up his bad behavior because she chose to deal with it poorly. The pain of dealing with an abusive spouse, if you've never experienced it (I have) is extremely damaging and hard to come back from. Why should she have to kiss his a$$ while he gets a pass?

I think they need to set boundaries on what she does and doesn't have to take from him. He's allowed to do some raging, but putting his hands on her and screaming an inch from her face is unacceptable from an abusive spouse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

rrhouse said:


> How long have I been in school and not working? Never.
> I said I'm a WORK at home mom-meaning I WORK from my house, while my child sleeps, and then take care of her all day. The cost of childcare is insane, and there is no guarantee that your child is in the right hands. Me staying at home is something we agreed on, I took up a job on my own accord. He doesn't believe in daycare. And my degree is being paid for with grants and loans. Something I plan to pay off independently. I'm not sure what more I can do there.
> Today I just took up a new job with substantially better pay, based on my anticipated graduation (August 8). I've also been looking into part time preschool for the little one, because she needs the socialization and preparation for kindergarten.


Ok, you can parse it differently that that sentence I quoted.

I inferred from what you wrote that you brought no money into the household. You do realize that while there is a cost savings to watching your own children, it is not the same as bringing in additional revenue. For example, you could work weekends at a job while he watches the kids on the weekend.

His comments were about him wanting you to bring in more money and cleaning up more.

I'm glad you are getting grants to pay for school. Even the loans, but i am sure you must have penciled out the entire pay-off schedule of your loans. whether or not you personally pay down the loans, the loans are net drag on the family income until they are paid off.

Your increased salary potential is not assured by a graduate degree. It depends on the degree area.

BTW, I worked 40 hours a week while in college fulltime. It isn't that fun, but it is possible. My ex, as much as I loathe her, did work while going to school and our kids were small.

BTW II, construe nothing I write here as being against motherhood, going to college, or of yourself. I'm talking strictly about the economics of your decisionmaking. I don't believe, based on what you wrote here, that you understand fully the impact of being a stay-at-home mother and going to school fulltime and being able to find time to have an affair has on your marriage and finances.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

michzz said:


> Ok, you can parse it differently that that sentence I quoted.
> 
> I inferred from what you wrote that you brought no money into the household. You do realize that while there is a cost savings to watching your own children, it is not the same as bringing in additional revenue. For example, you could work weekends at a job while he watches the kids on the weekend.
> 
> ...


She said that she works and brings in money, yet you seem bent on assuming he's financing everything. Why?

And men that work full time find time for affairs all the time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

michzz said:


> Ok, you can parse it differently that that sentence I quoted.
> 
> I inferred from what you wrote that you brought no money into the household. You do realize that while there is a cost savings to watching your own children, it is not the same as bringing in additional revenue. For example, you could work weekends at a job while he watches the kids on the weekend.
> 
> ...


Every family has different dynamics. For him to watch our daughter while I work weekends would require him to not work himself on Saturdays (not possible unless he wants to get fired), manage to stay up with her without passing out on the couch, not drink all night, and give up his Sunday bar-visit/ band practice/ whatever activity takes up the entire day and brings him home around 9pm every Sunday. It's just really not plausible. 

He does a lot of "activities" that I don't think he wants to give up- those activities cost money, several days a week.


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

I do wish you well, and your family.

There will be good days and there will be days that are not so good.

I do hope you can hang on when the bad days come.

You might be able to get some help from some of the people that have been successful in R.

try to talk to EI. 

I do remember on one of the bad days, I told her that I was leaving. She told me she was coming with me.

For some reason that helped me. I am not much help, but after you have about 30 entries, you could try to send a message to EI, or some of the other wise people. (also Mrs. John Adams)

R is not easy, but with the right two people, sometimes it is worth it.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

lifeistooshort said:


> She said that she works and brings in money, yet you seem bent on assuming he's financing everything. Why?
> 
> And men that work full time find time for affairs all the time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, she said she did not work for pay. She has a job possible once she graduates.

I'm bent on stating the obvious. Not working for pay means you are not adding revenues. His complaint, as she stated, was that she needed to bring in money and clean more.

That he has issues, of which she is only now discussing, is a side topic to this one.

He shouldn't be wasting funds either or behaving destructively.

But since she is the one posting, I'm addressing what she wrote.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

michzz said:


> No, she said she did not work for pay. She has a job possible once she graduates.
> 
> I'm bent on stating the obvious. Not working for pay means you are not adding revenues. His complaint, as she stated, was that she needed to bring in money and clean more.
> 
> ...



Actually you're not stating the obvious, you're reading what you want to read.

From the OP: "Today I took a job with substantially BETTER pay", implying she was getting paid. 

And her school is paid for with loans she plans to pay off, and she also keeps his daughter, so he is in fact financing very little. Then she apparently has to answer to him regarding whether the house is clean enough, because she's his employee and beneath him.

I have no idea why she still wants him, he was abusive before and now he has an excuse. But maybe things will work out.

If i'm wrong I'll apologize, OP would you clear this up?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> Come on now, this isn't quite a fair assessment, and it doesn't appear to be at all representative of the comments that OP has drawn thus far in this thread.
> 
> ETA: OK, I've read a bit further into the thread, and I'm ready to sort of dial back ^this response a bit. But still, there are plenty of us guys here who truly do want to help, and do everything that we can to make our replies as neutral and constructive as possible. Granted, this is quite a bit easier to do in the case of a WS that shows _at least some_ remorse for his or her actions, as OP would seem to be doing.


I know there are, and those of you that are like that are worth your weight in gold :smthumbup:

It's just not that common, most are looking for a punching bag. And a ww that has the nerve to suggest her husband wasn't treating her well, even while acknowledging that doesn't justify her affair, apparently makes a great punching bag for po'd men. And by not treating her well, I don't mean typical stuff that happens to everyone (ie working a lot, getting a little lazy etc); I mean flat out nasty and abusive.

I've never seen a wh on here with a wife that was always abusive be told he now has to continue to take her abusive because of his affair. And I've certainly never seen one be accused of making it all up to justify his affair.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

lifeistooshort said:


> Actually you're not stating the obvious, you're reading what you want to read.
> 
> F*rom the OP: "Today I took a job with substantially BETTER pay", implying she was getting paid. *
> 
> ...


OK, I agree, she could clarify, but you do realize a loan is NOT paying for something? It's taking on more debt!

Her exact words about a job were these:



rrhouse said:


> *Today I just took up a new job with substantially better pay, based on my anticipated graduation (August 8)*. I've also been looking into part time preschool for the little one, because she needs the socialization and preparation for kindergarten.


I took that to mean she has not been working, and I did comment that this was not a part of her original statement about being a work at home mother; where she said nothing about providing income.

So, you don't consider paying for living expenses and likely being partly responsible for loan repayment as financing very little?

I said it before and I'll say it again. I am not railing against motherhood, school, or the OP. I'm strictly trying to pry loose an understanding of the impact of:

1. Not being employed
2. Full time schooling to a graduate degree of unknown (to us) value in the job market
3. Significance of a school loan (Could be in the tens of thousands of dollars or more).

All of those things are not the same thing as deciding the husband is a jerk or not. Or whether or not he should be annoyed with his wife having cheated, or whether she should feel justified for having done so or not.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> Fair enough, and I appreciate your post. I guess I see a fine line between what you call minimizing/rewriting and an honest acknowledgment of what was going on. An abusive spouse is an abusive spouse whether they get cheated on or not, and a spouse that treats their partner poorly treats them poorly whether they get cheated on or not. The fact that she chose a very poor way to deal with it doesn't mean she's necessarily justifying or rewriting, he could very well have been a pr!ck before all of this. Acknowledging bad behavior is not the same as saying you deserve to be cheated on.
> 
> This R	can't work if she's not allowed to deal with his abusive behavior. Everyone should do heavy lifting for bad behavior; her for her affair and him for his abusive behavior. He doesn't get a pass nor is it fair to assume she simply made up his bad behavior because she chose to deal with it poorly. The pain of dealing with an abusive spouse, if you've never experienced it (I have) is extremely damaging and hard to come back from. Why should she have to kiss his a$$ while he gets a pass?
> 
> ...


I appreciate you understanding my side of the situation.

In a way I do feel like I should kiss his a**, but eventually we're going to have to address these issues. Right now he's basically given up on himself. He told me upon deciding to R that he wanted to change himself, yet he won't take the steps. He basically backed out of every change he originally said he wanted to make: quitting drinking, getting marriage counseling, getting a gym membership, etc. He is too comfortable with the lifestyle he has. For now I'm just going to have to deal with that, because at this stage of depression/shock he can't possibly be expected to tackle any of our other issues. 

I will draw the line when it comes to our daughter, though. No name-calling in front of her. If he wants to vent, we can do it privately. The other day, she was repeating everything he said while he was upset. That's not okay.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

michzz said:


> OK, I agree, she could clarify, but you do realize a loan is NOT paying for something? It's taking on more debt!
> 
> Her exact words about a job were these:
> 
> ...



You must have misunderstood and that's ok. I am a full time mom, full time student, and I currently have a part-time job. All from home. Upon graduation, I expect to pick up a better job (degree in Library Science/ Educational Technology). I chose a field that I can continue to work from home and make good money. 

I do have a huge loan out, but our finances are separate. I have paid off my car while working at home, pay my phone bill, buy groceries occasionally, and we write off a portion of all of our bills as a result of my self-employment. I contribute quite a bit, that's why I got defensive. 

I just took up a job that pays better than the one I had. Resigned today, starting new job today. (yay)

My loans are in my name, and I'd never ask him to pay for them. That would be awful.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

E=lifeistooshort;9341522]Why would you want to stay married to a nasty, controlling pr!ck?
And you'll find that here on TAM, once you cheat (as a woman) you have no credibility. Nothing your hb ever did matters and everything you say is a lie you made up to justify your cheating. Most of these guys don't believe he was abusive, we as conniving women just make that up to justify things. It matters not how nasty or abusive he's been, you still have to kiss his a$$.
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]

I might agree that he is an abuser if you could agree that she is a wh0re.....


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> Fair enough, and I appreciate your post. I guess I see a fine line between what you call minimizing/rewriting and an honest acknowledgment of what was going on. An abusive spouse is an abusive spouse whether they get cheated on or not, and a spouse that treats their partner poorly treats them poorly whether they get cheated on or not. The fact that she chose a very poor way to deal with it doesn't mean she's necessarily justifying or rewriting, he could very well have been a pr!ck before all of this. Acknowledging bad behavior is not the same as saying you deserve to be cheated on.
> 
> This R	can't work if she's not allowed to deal with his abusive behavior. Everyone should do heavy lifting for bad behavior; her for her affair and him for his abusive behavior. He doesn't get a pass nor is it fair to assume she simply made up his bad behavior because she chose to deal with it poorly. The pain of dealing with an abusive spouse, if you've never experienced it (I have) is extremely damaging and hard to come back from. Why should she have to kiss his a$$ while he gets a pass?
> 
> ...


LTS

But you admit that if your husband cheated on you he'd get a no questions asked divorce from you in record time. No R, no "heavy lifting" by him would make a lick of difference. You and him would be over. My guess is if he protested to you that you had been mean to him for the past year and drove him to it you'd not consider it for even a nanosecond. 

Well I think that is a pretty healthy attitude, frankly. Some men feel exactly the same way you do, that's all.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

rrhouse said:


> You're right. It's easy to try and think of all the horrible stuff he did to drive me to make the decision I did. He'll tell you that in the end, right before the affair, he was being worse than ever. However, that doesn't give me the license to cheat. GusPolinksi suggested a book to me called How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair, and I read through it yesterday. I've been making some big mistakes in the healing process. It's helping me empathize better and put away my issues for now. Reading my first post in this thread, I can see alot of selfishness. It's been four months since his d-day and I don't expect it to be over any time soon. My biggest issue was the name calling and threatening divorce every other week. It's gut-wrenching.
> 
> I can't imagine how gut-wrenching it was for him to discover the affair, but the pain I feel when he says it's over, again and again, is intense. So I'll liken it to that. If that's what he feels every day, I don't know how he functions and I feel so awful that I did that to him.
> 
> ...


You seem like a reasonable person trying to work through your regret at having done a very rotten thing, and saving your family in the meantime. But do you really believe that your H behavior "drove" you to have sex with the OM? I can see how that might drive you to leave him, or drive you away from him sexually. Drive you to screw another guy? 

What was the other guy like? More attractive than your H? Younger? Better educated, better job? Just saying that maybe the reasons you cheated weren't so 'innocent' as being "broken" or beaten down. Is it possible that your cheating was just rotten behavior by you, just as your H emotional abuse if you was rotten behavior by him......with nothing to do with you?

I believe that emotional abuse, if intense and unrelenting, should be a deal breaker for a marriage. Ditto for physical abuse. Ditto for adultery. You're trying to save a marriage that has been hollowed out in two directions. If there was no child involved, would you think the relationship was worth saving ........given all that has happened?


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## Pamvhv (Apr 27, 2014)

Isn't it like common knowledge that BS go through a plethora of emotions that can rotate every minute?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Pamvhv said:


> Isn't it like common knowledge that BS go through a plethora of emotions that can rotate every minute?


Eh... I don't know that it's "common" knowledge, per se, at least not for those who haven't spent at least some time reading up on the "emotional rollercoaster". Many of us here have obviously educated ourselves in that regard.

This is one of the reasons that I first came to TAM. After a job loss late last year, and then starting a new job that had me commuting 4-5 hours each day, I found myself triggering very heavily a full 18 months into reconciliation. I needed to understand what I was going through, so I hit up Google from the office on a particularly rough day, and I found TAM.

'Twas a dark, dark day for the denizens of TAM, to be sure.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

nuclearnightmare said:


> You seem like a reasonable person trying to work through your regret at having done a very rotten thing, and saving your family in the meantime. But do you really believe that your H behavior "drove" you to have sex with the OM? I can see how that might drive you to leave him, or drive you away from him sexually. Drive you to screw another guy?
> 
> What was the other guy like? More attractive than your H? Younger? Better educated, better job? Just saying that maybe the reasons you cheated weren't so 'innocent' as being "broken" or beaten down. Is it possible that your cheating was just rotten behavior by you, just as your H emotional abuse if you was rotten behavior by him......with nothing to do with you?
> 
> I believe that emotional abuse, if intense and unrelenting, should be a deal breaker for a marriage. Ditto for physical abuse. Ditto for adultery. You're trying to save a marriage that has been hollowed out in two directions. If there was no child involved, would you think the relationship was worth saving ........given all that has happened?


While perhaps worded a bit crudely, much of ^this would seem to be pretty poignant and profound.

Props, NN.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

nuclearnightmare said:


> You seem like a reasonable person trying to work through your regret at having done a very rotten thing, and saving your family in the meantime. But do you really believe that your H behavior "drove" you to have sex with the OM? I can see how that might drive you to leave him, or drive you away from him sexually. Drive you to screw another guy?
> 
> What was the other guy like? More attractive than your H? Younger? Better educated, better job? Just saying that maybe the reasons you cheated weren't so 'innocent' as being "broken" or beaten down. Is it possible that your cheating was just rotten behavior by you, just as your H emotional abuse if you was rotten behavior by him......with nothing to do with you?
> 
> I believe that emotional abuse, if intense and unrelenting, should be a deal breaker for a marriage. Ditto for physical abuse. Ditto for adultery. You're trying to save a marriage that has been hollowed out in two directions. If there was no child involved, would you think the relationship was worth saving ........given all that has happened?


I don't believe that my husband's behavior drove me to have sex with another man. His behavior was pretty horrible, but I myself chose to do what I did. I did try to blame him at first, because that's the easy way out. He believed it at first too, but then he grew even more angry that he was the one having to make changes when I was the one who made a selfish, horrible mistake.There are better ways to deal with what we had going on and I chose to cheat. 

OM wasn't particularly good looking, had no job, and oddly enough I met him once a few years ago and was really creeped out by him. When I met him again in February he was just nice.... We hung out one night and he said he understood that I wasn't happy with my marriage and kissed me. That was the first time I'd been kissed affectionately in over 2 years. He complimented me, flirted with me, made me feel wanted. Again something I hadn't felt in a long time. As I said before I felt entitled to that affection, and I took it without considering the consequences. I didn't even like the guy, he was rude after he got what he wanted, yet I went back one more time before the affair was discovered. He probably bragged to his friends about his feat of seducing a married woman... I am looking for IC because obviously I have some kind of self-esteem issues that need to be sussed out. 

My husband hasn't always been a d**k. He has issues with depression and is too stubborn to get counseling.. Instead of being there for him I went to another man. Now he's more broken than ever and I don't know what to do. Granted, he pushed me away quite a bit right before the affair, but a good wife would have stayed and helped him. I feel so low for doing what I did. Right now his only reason for staying is because of our child. He and I both were raised without a father and he has always been adamant about doing anything he can for our child. He told me he's here for her. I'm here for both of them. I feel like it's the right thing to do after making the decision to possibly tear everything apart.

My husband became a different person when he became a father. Or maybe I began to change and he didn't. Who knows, really. I could go on forever about that, but that's a different problem for a different day. I don't think we'd have any of these issues though, if we didn't have a child. Don't take that the wrong way though, I love my child so, so much. It hurts me that I possibly ruined her childhood by doing what I did. I think my husband is most hurt by that too. He told me the only reason he still wears his wedding ring because it represents his family, and he's still committed to our daughter. It's just a really tough situation. He's one of those parents that lets their marriage sit on the back-burner while they focus entirely on being a parent. That's great and all, but a married couple with issues like we were developing (especially the affair) can't function well as parents. He always called me selfish for saying that.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

Pamvhv said:


> Isn't it like common knowledge that BS go through a plethora of emotions that can rotate every minute?


Apparently not, because I was unaware until I joined this forum. Some people don't have much experience with this type of situation because we've never been there before. Just a thought.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> While perhaps worded a bit crudely, much of ^this would seem to be pretty poignant and profound.
> 
> Props, NN.


:iagree:

It is something I've been considering quite a bit. Is it really worth going through all the hardship of R just to end up with the same issues we always had? I don't know...
He was kind once; I like to be optimistic and say maybe we can find that sweet spot again- or better. I want to help him find some happiness, whether we work it out or not. I really miss that sweet man I fell in love with.


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

rrhouse said:


> I feel so bad for taking away his security. Just saying "I'm so so sorry" seems cheap.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


"I'm so sorry" goes a long way. But your attitude and demeanor have to match your words. That gets a lot tougher when you feel you have legitimate grievances that he has not owned up to or worked on.

The problem with the affair is that it must be dealt with before all of the problems that preceded it. There will be no fixing the other problems until the affair is taken care of.

You are in a tough spot. He sounds like he was a bit of an a-hole, emotionally abusive. Affairs tend to make people more emotionally abusive, so even someone who was not emotionally abusive before may become that way after the affair. A common reaction to being cheated on is to want to punish the cheater, to lash out. If he was that way before the affair, I don't see it improving after the affair, not for a long while, at least six months.

The problem with people believing cheaters in this forum is that most of them have been lied to by their own cheaters. Many of them have had their cheaters "re-write" history to justify the affair. It is a common occurrence if you look at some of the threads here.

You and he both seem to have spent a lot of time going out to drink with friends in bars. Why? That is a singles lifestyle, isn't it? I have a lot of funny crazy stories from my younger days, just about none of them would have happened without alcohol. That lifestyle is great when you are accountable to no one but yourself and the only one who has to live with your mistakes is you. It's not something you should be doing when you have a spouse and child, in my opinion. Unfortunately, when you get married, your lifestyle diverges from the lifestyle of your single friends, and often the married and single friends grow apart.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

Just Joe said:


> "I'm so sorry" goes a long way. But your attitude and demeanor have to match your words. That gets a lot tougher when you feel you have legitimate grievances that he has not owned up to or worked on.
> 
> The problem with the affair is that it must be dealt with before all of the problems that preceded it. There will be no fixing the other problems until the affair is taken care of.
> 
> ...


I understand. I'm trying to be selfless and focus only on the affair for now. It is difficult,  being a human being and all, sometimes I start feeling sorry for myself. But I'm trying my best not to mope around and make him feel guilty for my actions. 

As for the bar lifestyle, we met in a bar I worked at. Much of the first 2 years of our relationship happened in that bar. I had a horrible drinking problem at the time- I'm talking overnight binges every other night with friends... That ended as soon as I became pregnant, but it took me until now to stop hanging out with the same people and doing the same things on my once-monthly GNO days. It's just all I knew. Looking back I see that none of my friends were really friends, they were drinking buddies. Especially the "best friend" that introduced me to OM, and encouraged the affair. 

Our problem was that we were doing the same things we used to do together with other people. One of us always stays home to care for the little one (usually me). When I finally would get my turn to go out, I'd try to stuff a month of fun into one night, because I knew that would be my only outing for another month. He trusted me back then and didn't mind too much. We have the occasional argument that "married women don't hang out at bars at night, " which he immediately saw as hypocritical. The last month or two before the affair I was getting reckless. He was being worse than ever and I turned to my "best friend" for support... The affair happened over 3 drunken nights, over the course of 3 weeks. I was going out once a week. Horrible idea. Horrible. 

Now he still goes out pretty much whenever he wants and I have been trying to stay home as much as possible. It's only been 3 weeks of me staying home, 4 months post affair. I can't complain right now, but I wish he'd start caring for himself more. His friends seem to be influencing him to find a RA.


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

rrhouse said:


> I understand. I'm trying to be selfless and focus only on the affair for now. It is difficult, being a human being and all, sometimes I start feeling sorry for myself. But I'm trying my best not to mope around and make him feel guilty for my actions.
> 
> As for the bar lifestyle, we met in a bar I worked at. Much of the first 2 years of our relationship happened in that bar. I had a horrible drinking problem at the time- I'm talking overnight binges every other night with friends... That ended as soon as I became pregnant, but it took me until now to stop hanging out with the same people and doing the same things on my once-monthly GNO days. It's just all I knew. Looking back I see that none of my friends were really friends, they were drinking buddies. Especially the "best friend" that introduced me to OM, and encouraged the affair.
> 
> ...


Without the drinking, you may find you do not have much in common.

I used to love to go out and party when I was young and single but it's not a good lifestyle. It leads to nothing but trouble. I regret spending as much time as I did doing it. Anybody I know who continued in that lifestyle had very messed up personal lives. If you both really like doing it still, do it with each other, get a sitter, and if you go out to bars with anyone but the two of you, go out with other couples, not with single friends. Do other things with your single friends if you want to keep them.

You are too much focused on you. Someone just posted this in another thread, it's not all applicable to all situations, and if I was a cheater and I read it, I would run for the hills I think, but a lot of it rings true for a betrayed spouse. It's in the "no sex after her affair" thread.

As for now, IF you want to save your marriage, dump all of your friends who participated in and facilitated your affair. Anyone who was there and didn't tell you to stop, anyone who didn't call you out on it. Take some actions like blocking them on facebook and deleting them from your phone. These types of things will show your husband some concrete actions. Get rid of the clothes you wore those nights when you cheated. What you are trying to show your husband is that you repudiate all those things about the affair, that you truly don't want anything to do with it. These will be actions that will match your words. Words without actions are meaningless.

Your husband is waiting for you to make things right. You caused the situation, you have to fix it. You can fix the other problems on his end once you get him past the first 6 months or so, or maybe if he is self aware he will try to fix them on his own before then. But I wouldn't count on it.


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

Also, I don't think you can say "I'm sorry" enough in the early days after the affair is discovered. But it has to be sincere.


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

Why are his friends and your friends different?

You both need friends that are friends of the Marriage.

Having a RA is like pouring gasoline on the fire. 

I realize that your H's self-esteem is shot. You chose a guy that does not have a job over him. That can make him feel like he is not a catch at all.

If he will not go to counseling with you, go by yourself.

I am really putting your daughter ahead of you and your H. She is the innocent party.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

Just Joe said:


> Without the drinking, you may find you do not have much in common.
> 
> I used to love to go out and party when I was young and single but it's not a good lifestyle. It leads to nothing but trouble. I regret spending as much time as I did doing it. Anybody I know who continued in that lifestyle had very messed up personal lives. If you both really like doing it still, do it with each other, get a sitter, and if you go out to bars with anyone but the two of you, go out with other couples, not with single friends. Do other things with your single friends if you want to keep them.
> 
> ...



When you say I'm too focused on myself, do you mean I'm still being selfish? I'm trying to be there for him, ask him how he's doing, but he's pushing me away. Not sure what to do. 

Also in the thread by RoadScholar, are you referring to "Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse - A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners"? It's one of the more recent posts. I will read deeper into the thread today. 

I want to fix this. I don't want to be selfish about it...


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

38m3kids said:


> Almost 4 years post her affair, which sounds similar to yours. Life changes and people change post affair. I know for me, I stayed for the kids, and my feelings for her have changed forever. Good luck.. I hope your husband is a better man than me.


Something in your post made me click back, and read some of your old posts. Sounds like a rough sentence you've lived for 4 years, for no good reason. 

Unreasonable. That's a good way to describe adultery. 

Feel very similar to you, it seems. Its good (but bad) to know that what we are going thru is something that is not uncommon, or out of left field.


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

rrhouse said:


> When you say I'm too focused on myself, do you mean I'm still being selfish? I'm trying to be there for him, ask him how he's doing, but he's pushing me away. Not sure what to do.
> 
> Also in the thread by RoadScholar, are you referring to "Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse - A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners"? It's one of the more recent posts. I will read deeper into the thread today.
> 
> I want to fix this. I don't want to be selfish about it...


I think yes about being selfish, a little bit. I don't really know, how could I or anyone after a few posts, but your posts have a tiny bit of a "me, me, me" feeling to them. Maybe it's just me. In your first post you had "I don't want to be selfish but," any thing that comes after the but usually is the opposite of what comes before, like if I say "I don't want to make judgments about people I hardly know but ..." My point is that this cheating thing is huge, maybe you don't think it would be such a big deal to you if it happened to you, but take a look around here a little and you will see people posting stuff like their spouse cheating on them was worse than their parents dying and stuff like that. Most posters here give that vibe so I would say there has to be something to it, it's pretty darn painful, maybe it's something you have to experience to be able to relate to it. Sorry for rambling but my point is for about the first 6 months it has to be all about him in my opinion. Can you say sorry over and over again and put up with his bullsh1t for 3-6 months? Then you might get a chance to work on your other problems with him, and maybe things will work out and maybe they won't work out, maybe he's an a-hole or will become one. I think 6 months is worth it to see how it goes if you have a child involved.

Yes, the understanding your spouse post was what I was talking about. I am a betrayed spouse and I have a hard time reading that. All of that stuff does not apply to everyone, but if I was the one who cheated and told that what was in that post is what reconciliation entailed, I'm pretty sure I would give up right away. I don't think it's as hard as that post makes it sound, but you are going to have to have a kind of thick skin for a while and think to yourself that he is like a child who has been hurt lashing out with anything he can say to hurt you back, but if he didn't love you he would have just walked out. His action showing you he loves you is him staying to work it out, no matter what comes out of his mouth.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

Rrhouse

Your story and presentation have stirred up my usual thinking a bit. You said you felt "entitled" to the OMs affection. That has a slight ring to it of revenge seeking. I.e. spousal abuse is humiliating. I believe that is the principal effect on the victim, be it physical or emotional or both. Often people who are humiliated long for revenge on the perpretrator. E.g. the "revenge affair" often mentioned. Paying back humiliation with humiliation. Is it possible that your cheating might have been spurred by resentment toward H for his abuse of you. I.e. a little revenge taking by you?

I don't know if desire for payback is the healthiest response to abuse, but IMO it is far better than internalizing it - victim believing they are in part responsible or deserving of the treatment. I believe I would be a revenge seeker, actually.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

Just Joe said:


> I think yes about being selfish, a little bit. I don't really know, how could I or anyone after a few posts, but your posts have a tiny bit of a "me, me, me" feeling to them. Maybe it's just me. In your first post you had "I don't want to be selfish but," any thing that comes after the but usually is the opposite of what comes before, like if I say "I don't want to make judgments about people I hardly know but ..." My point is that this cheating thing is huge, maybe you don't think it would be such a big deal to you if it happened to you, but take a look around here a little and you will see people posting stuff like their spouse cheating on them was worse than their parents dying and stuff like that. Most posters here give that vibe so I would say there has to be something to it, it's pretty darn painful, maybe it's something you have to experience to be able to relate to it. Sorry for rambling but my point is for about the first 6 months it has to be all about him in my opinion. Can you say sorry over and over again and put up with his bullsh1t for 3-6 months? Then you might get a chance to work on your other problems with him, and maybe things will work out and maybe they won't work out, maybe he's an a-hole or will become one. I think 6 months is worth it to see how it goes if you have a child involved.
> 
> Yes, the understanding your spouse post was what I was talking about. I am a betrayed spouse and I have a hard time reading that. All of that stuff does not apply to everyone, but if I was the one who cheated and told that what was in that post is what reconciliation entailed, I'm pretty sure I would give up right away. I don't think it's as hard as that post makes it sound, but you are going to have to have a kind of thick skin for a while and think to yourself that he is like a child who has been hurt lashing out with anything he can say to hurt you back, but if he didn't love you he would have just walked out. His action showing you he loves you is him staying to work it out, no matter what comes out of his mouth.



You're probably right. I've come a long way from that first post though, from reading other people's stories and a couple of books suggested to me. Achieving a state of true remorse from an affair requires some level of personal reflection, and that's what I've been doing here. Reflecting, taking advice, learning. 

You've given me some good advice and I appreciate it. In previous posts I did mention that I'm going to have to put our old issues away for now and internalize past and future frustration regarding his abuse. While I might talk on this thread about my feelings and how it's affecting me, I don't talk to him about it. I think any WS with prior issues similar to mine will have some lingering frustration, but you just have to put it away. As I've said before- it's a different issue for a different time. 

For both his and our daughter's sake I'm going to stick it out until there's nothing more I can do. The least I can do is help him heal from what I did to him, for sure.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

nuclearnightmare said:


> Rrhouse
> 
> Your story and presentation have stirred up my usual thinking a bit. You said you felt "entitled" to the OMs affection. That has a slight ring to it of revenge seeking. I.e. spousal abuse is humiliating. I believe that is the principal effect on the victim, be it physical or emotional or both. Often people who are humiliated long for revenge on the perpretrator. E.g. the "revenge affair" often mentioned. Paying back humiliation with humiliation. Is it possible that your cheating might have been spurred by resentment toward H for his abuse of you. I.e. a little revenge taking by you?
> 
> I don't know if desire for payback is the healthiest response to abuse, but IMO it is far better than internalizing it - victim believing they are in part responsible or deserving of the treatment. I believe I would be a revenge seeker, actually.


That is possible. Maybe subconsciously I wanted revenge for being mistreated for so long. Something he said a week before the affair really set me off. We were having one of our usual arguments and I said I couldn't continue living with him unless we went to counseling. His response was "this is not my problem, you deal with it." To me that was a huge f*** you. (Definitely not as huge as infidelity) He may as well have just said, "I don't care about you enough to do anything about this."


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

rrhouse said:


> That is possible. Maybe subconsciously I wanted revenge for being mistreated for so long. Something he said a week before the affair really set me off. We were having one of our usual arguments and I said I couldn't continue living with him unless we went to counseling. His response was "this is not my problem, you deal with it." To me that was a huge f*** you. (Definitely not as huge as infidelity) He may as well have just said, "I don't care about you enough to do anything about this."


That's exactly what it means. My ex said basically the same thing to me when I told him I was miserable and asked for counseling. He told me he was fine and that it was my problem. Ok then, well f$ck you too, and while we're at it I want a divorce. Once I demanded one all of a sudden he wanted counseling but quite frankly it meant nothing to me then. He honestly didn't think I was going anywhere so he didn't give a crap how I felt, but once he realized HIS life was going to be affected he cared. Sounds like your hb really didn't care until their were repercussions for him. I bet people here would be much more sympathetic to a guy who had an affair because his wife refused sex and when he tried to discuss it told him it was his problem.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## VFW (Oct 24, 2012)

I don't agree with the affair, but you have already taken responsibility, so I won't rehash that issue. However, I just don't see how this relationship can get better, if he refuses to address any of the issues. This will simmer for a while, but will eventually boil over and then what will you do? That is the question you need to ponder, what will you do? Where will you go? How will you handle the separation? Would you consider a trial separation or immediately go to divorce? 

Both of you have made a mountain of errors. Alcohol seems to be the common thread of this marriage and is affecting it very negatively. The problems of the marriage were almost insurmountable before the affair, it was just the icing on the cake. Both of you have acted very selfishly and unless that stops, alcohol stops, and you start working together to fix the problems, I just don't see anyway for this to work.

I know you will stay and hang in there hoping for better things for a while, but eventually you will get to a point where you have to do something. Continuing as you are, only leaves you as a second class citizen and not part of a relationship. Every time you disagree with him, he will reach in his pocket and pull out the affair card. This is his trump card for every argument. When that happens, then consider this: 

1. Trail separation for 30 days, no contact except emergency situation. Set a schedule for him to see daughter and have a third party exchange, if at all possible. Both of you have to quit drinking, enroll in AA if necessary to facilitate success. Start individual counseling.

2. Separation 30-60 days light dating and family days. Intimacy should return, but no sex. Start MC and make this the only venue to discuss relationship. 

3. Separation 60-90 days dating should continue and add sex and weekend visits. Continue family days and counseling. At the end of this period you need to decide how to move forward or terminate the relationship.

If he refuses to go to counseling, then you will know where you stand. Don't move on to the next phase until he agrees to work on the problems.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

:iagree: You won't be able to untangle this knot without professional help. it seems clear.

Sidebar thought: Why does it seem as often as not these POSOMs are unemployed?


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

Philat said:


> :iagree: You won't be able to untangle this knot without professional help. it seems clear.
> 
> Sidebar thought: Why does it seem as often as not these POSOMs are unemployed?



Plenty of free time to seduce married women with low self-worth, maybe..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

rrhouse said:


> Plenty of free time to seduce married women with low self-worth, maybe..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's about the size of it, I think...


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

VFW said:


> I don't agree with the affair, but you have already taken responsibility, so I won't rehash that issue. However, I just don't see how this relationship can get better, if he refuses to address any of the issues. This will simmer for a while, but will eventually boil over and then what will you do? That is the question you need to ponder, what will you do? Where will you go? How will you handle the separation? Would you consider a trial separation or immediately go to divorce?
> 
> Both of you have made a mountain of errors. Alcohol seems to be the common thread of this marriage and is affecting it very negatively. The problems of the marriage were almost insurmountable before the affair, it was just the icing on the cake. Both of you have acted very selfishly and unless that stops, alcohol stops, and you start working together to fix the problems, I just don't see anyway for this to work.
> 
> ...


Divorce is the last option I want to consider. I do agree that he needs to come to terms with his own issues, but right now is not the time. How can I show true remorse if I keep reminding him how sh*tty he is? I've already been called every nasty name in the book; I can handle hearing the same nonsense while he heals. Honestly, he's been better about it since the affair anyway. Sometimes he gets his usual attitude with me and then triggers because he thinks I'll cheat again if he makes me mad. 
Even though it's been 4 months since D-Day, I've been repeatedly reopening the wound with my GNO habits. I only quit the drinking exactly 3 weeks ago. He's probably been so distracted with the binge nights, that he hasn't really had time to process what happened. Last weekend, when I was at my grandma's, he had the time to fully process things without the worry of me running off to hang out with my party friends. He had time to talk to all of his friends and be influenced by their opinions on RA's being the only way to settle the score. He had time to consider what life would be like without me, and I think he was p*ssed that he's even in this situation at all. He had no choice.

All rambling aside, what I'm saying is I want to give him some time to heal. I have faith that he'll come around and lose his apathy eventually. I will ask him not to vent in front of out daughter though, she doesn't need to see that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

_Even though it's been 4 months since D-Day, I've been repeatedly reopening the wound with my GNO habits. I only quit the drinking exactly 3 weeks ago. He's probably been so distracted with the binge nights, that he hasn't really had time to process what happened. Last weekend, when I was at my grandma's, he had the time to fully process things without the worry of me running off to hang out with my party friends. He had time to talk to all of his friends and be influenced by their opinions on RA's being the only way to settle the score. He had time to consider what life would be like without me, and I think he was p*ssed that he's even in this situation at all. He had no choice.
_

All this is *exactly* why you guys need counseling, rrhouse. Do you agree with this or not?


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

Philat said:


> _Even though it's been 4 months since D-Day, I've been repeatedly reopening the wound with my GNO habits. I only quit the drinking exactly 3 weeks ago. He's probably been so distracted with the binge nights, that he hasn't really had time to process what happened. Last weekend, when I was at my grandma's, he had the time to fully process things without the worry of me running off to hang out with my party friends. He had time to talk to all of his friends and be influenced by their opinions on RA's being the only way to settle the score. He had time to consider what life would be like without me, and I think he was p*ssed that he's even in this situation at all. He had no choice.
> _
> 
> All this is *exactly* why you guys need counseling, rrhouse. Do you agree with this or not?


Of course! He doesn't want to go, though. I'll have to go by myself and hope he chooses to tag along. If it doesn't work out in the end, at least I tried. 

I kind of understand why he doesn't want to go- he thinks he'll have to pay for it. He doesn't want to pay for counseling for the mess I made, and who would, really? Although I do work at home, I can't afford counseling.. We have several family members offering to pay, and I'm going to take them up on it.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

rrhouse said:


> Of course! He doesn't want to go, though. I'll have to go by myself and hope he chooses to tag along. If it doesn't work out in the end, at least I tried.
> 
> I kind of understand why he doesn't want to go- *he thinks he'll have to pay for it*. He doesn't want to pay for counseling for the mess I made, and who would, really? Although I do work at home, I can't afford counseling.. We have several family members offering to pay, and I'm going to take them up on it.


Divorce would be a much more emotionally and financially exhaustive outcome, and not only for the two of you, but for your daughter as well.


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## Cabsy (Mar 25, 2013)

It's hard to forgive and move forward when you're not convinced of the outcomes. Maybe no one can give full assurances that nothing could ever happen again, or that things will be great from here on out, but you guys can take steps to ensure that the conditions that allowed the transgressions to take place are eliminated. 

If you fall into the same traps regarding alcohol, GNOs, blame, revenge, inability to resolve conflicts, etc... reconciliation can't end well. As said above, those issues will simmer and boil over. You have to be able to communicate effectively and face problems together.


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## sammy7111 (Apr 19, 2014)

Ask your self if he has a ra are you welling to work throw it with him if not then leave call it end. But the only thing u can do right now is let him vent and go throw with what ever he has to work throw. Later own you'll can go to concealing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

sammy7111 said:


> Ask your self if he has a ra are you welling to work throw it with him if not then leave call it end. But the only thing u can do right now is let him vent and go throw with what ever he has to work throw. Later own you'll can go to concealing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I don't believe he will have a RA. He has mentioned a few times but says he couldn't ever do that to our daughter. He even said he's had the opportunity to have an affair in the past and passed it up so as not to hurt our daughter. 

If he actually did go through with it, I could only hope that he finds some kind of comfort in it. I don't think it would help, but I can't be a hypocrite.


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## poida (Jan 17, 2014)

rrhouse said:


> You're right. It's easy to try and think of all the horrible stuff he did to drive me to make the decision I did. He'll tell you that in the end, right before the affair, he was being worse than ever. However, that doesn't give me the license to cheat. GusPolinksi suggested a book to me called How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair, and I read through it yesterday. I've been making some big mistakes in the healing process. It's helping me empathize better and put away my issues for now. Reading my first post in this thread, I can see alot of selfishness. It's been four months since his d-day and I don't expect it to be over any time soon. My biggest issue was the name calling and threatening divorce every other week. It's gut-wrenching.
> 
> I can't imagine how gut-wrenching it was for him to discover the affair, but the pain I feel when he says it's over, again and again, is intense. So I'll liken it to that. If that's what he feels every day, I don't know how he functions and I feel so awful that I did that to him.
> 
> ...


Good progress. I wish you well. Being cheated on is worse the losing a loved one because you are reminded of the pain every single day. I can tell you it is not a good place to be. 

Know that whether he says so or not, your husband will be assessing YOUR willingness to do the hard work every day. The more heavy lifting you do the more comfortable he feels about the cheating and more willing he is to begin working on his own issues.

The healing is going to have to start with you.


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## VFW (Oct 24, 2012)

rrhouse said:


> Divorce is the last option I want to consider. I do agree that he needs to come to terms with his own issues, but right now is not the time. How can I show true remorse if I keep reminding him how sh*tty he is? I've already been called every nasty name in the book; I can handle hearing the same nonsense while he heals. Honestly, he's been better about it since the affair anyway. Sometimes he gets his usual attitude with me and then triggers because he thinks I'll cheat again if he makes me mad.
> Even though it's been 4 months since D-Day, I've been repeatedly reopening the wound with my GNO habits. I only quit the drinking exactly 3 weeks ago. He's probably been so distracted with the binge nights, that he hasn't really had time to process what happened. Last weekend, when I was at my grandma's, he had the time to fully process things without the worry of me running off to hang out with my party friends. He had time to talk to all of his friends and be influenced by their opinions on RA's being the only way to settle the score. He had time to consider what life would be like without me, and I think he was p*ssed that he's even in this situation at all. He had no choice.
> 
> All rambling aside, what I'm saying is I want to give him some time to heal. I have faith that he'll come around and lose his apathy eventually. I will ask him not to vent in front of out daughter though, she doesn't need to see that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The first thing is you don't need to remind him of past sins, he already knows he did this. Secondly, if you want to make an impression on him then quit drinking. If you quit, it may be a motivation for him. Next quit GNO, it's time to leave your bar days behind you. To your husband it is seen as a continuance of the affair. Bar hopping and hooking up has to make him question your behavior. Now you say you aren't hooking up, but everything looks the same to him. This doesn't mean that you can't go to Appleby's for dinner with your friends, but should be home by 8 pm and you can have just as much fun without drinking. 

I'm not telling you to divorce as that is a decision only you can make. Nor do I think that I know your complete story from a few paragraphs that you have written. I also believe most relationships can be fixed if both parties work to fix them. Still alcohol seems to be a common theme. If you do nothing else while you are waiting, eliminate alcohol from the equation and see what changes occur.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

poida said:


> Good progress. I wish you well. Being cheated on is worse the losing a loved one because you are reminded of the pain every single day. I can tell you it is not a good place to be.
> 
> Know that whether he says so or not, your husband will be assessing YOUR willingness to do the hard work every day. The more heavy lifting you do the more comfortable he feels about the cheating and more willing he is to begin working on his own issues.
> 
> The healing is going to have to start with you.



I'm trying. Thank you for the advice. He's been very quiet these past few days. I'm trying to give him space while still being there in any way I can.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

VFW said:


> The first thing is you don't need to remind him of past sins, he already knows he did this. Secondly, if you want to make an impression on him then quit drinking. If you quit, it may be a motivation for him. Next quit GNO, it's time to leave your bar days behind you. To your husband it is seen as a continuance of the affair. Bar hopping and hooking up has to make him question your behavior. Now you say you aren't hooking up, but everything looks the same to him. This doesn't mean that you can't go to Appleby's for dinner with your friends, but should be home by 8 pm and you can have just as much fun without drinking.
> 
> I'm not telling you to divorce as that is a decision only you can make. Nor do I think that I know your complete story from a few paragraphs that you have written. I also believe most relationships can be fixed if both parties work to fix them. Still alcohol seems to be a common theme. If you do nothing else while you are waiting, eliminate alcohol from the equation and see what changes occur.


Thank you... I'm working on my fourth week of no drinking, no outings. Divorce will be a decision he makes, I'm here to help him heal. He will barely speak to me right now.. I'm so worried about him. I feel awful that I made him feel that way.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

Today isn't going so well. I tried to ask him where is head was at so I can help him somehow. 

His response was to yell about how I can't help him and I don't want to hear what he's thinking. And then he stormed off...

How can I be there for someone who doesn't want me here? 

We have plans on going to the beach tomorrow to get out daughter out of the house... we'll be in a hotel for 2 nights. He said he wants to take his 'fake family' to the beach so our daughter can have a memorable summer. Not sure how that's going to go. 

He's so angry and silent right now.


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## lapn (Feb 25, 2014)

You are really only 2 weeks into the process. He doesn't know you were contrite or faithful for those months in which you continued to act like a single teenager. 

What assurance does he have you weren't continuing to sleep around when you were partying?

IF this is going to work, be prepared to be very very patient, because he is incredibly raw right now and will likely continue to be for sometime.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

lapn said:


> You are really only 2 weeks into the process. He doesn't know you were contrite or faithful for those months in which you continued to act like a single teenager.
> 
> What assurance does he have you weren't continuing to sleep around when you were partying?
> 
> IF this is going to work, be prepared to be very very patient, because he is incredibly raw right now and will likely continue to be for sometime.



I'm prepared to be patient for as long as this takes. He said he wasn't worried about me continuing to cheat while partying, but the dishonesty about what I was doing continued to upset him.

He is stuck between being the bad guy that ruins our family, or the doormat that stays with a cheating wife. As of now he says our old marriage is gone and he needs time to deal with the "break up." We are going to continue living in the same house and I won't turn away his sexual advances, but we are neither together nor separating. He wants us to keep our daughter's environment stable for now until he figures things out.

In a few months he said he can better assess whether or not he wants to rebuild our marriage from the bottom. I think (know) it's going to take more than three months to work through something like this, but he's calling the shots right now. Still refusing counseling and self-medicating with alcohol. All I can do for now is try to better myself and be the kind of woman he wants to keep in his life. 

All other issues can take a backseat for now.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

I gotta be honest... All of this talk about his excessive drinking is making it reeeaaaaally tough for me to feel any sort of lasting sympathy for this guy.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> I gotta be honest... All of this talk about his excessive drinking is making it reeeaaaaally tough for me to feel any sort of lasting sympathy for this guy.


He doesn't binge drink, but he's definitely buzzed at the end of every night. Probably goes through a big bottle of liquor every 3 or 4 days. I wish he wouldn't, but at this point I feel like I should let him do his thing.


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

rrhouse said:


> Today isn't going so well. I tried to ask him where is head was at so I can help him somehow.
> 
> His response was to yell about how I can't help him and I don't want to hear what he's thinking. And then he stormed off...
> 
> ...


This is what progress looks like early on. He can leave if he wants but he isn't. He's waiting for you to do something stupid to confirm his worst suspicions.

I didn't want my wife asking me where my head was at. Lay off that one. "None of your business where my damn head is at, where the f was your head at when you risked our daughter's future happiness?" That's what I would be thinking.

Here are some things I liked to hear: I'm so sorry. I will spend the rest of my life making it up to you. I have to answer to God for my many mistakes & how they have hurt you. I pray everyday that I never hurt you again and that you can heal. I will never forgive myself and will carry this burden forever. 

When I heard those things I was looking for any action to the contrary by my wife, any thing at all, to betray that those words were in fact just words, just being spoken to placate me and not really sincere. So your actions have to match your words. If he thinks you're just saying it and don't mean it, it will wind up having a more negative effect than if you didn't say it at all.

If other man's name comes up, it wouldn't hurt to express how you realize what an a-hole he is and how your husband is better in every way. If he's like me, he doesn't want to stick around if you still have any positive feelings at all for the other man. I realize this may be unrealistic, but at this early stage, it's how it is.

I also think it's OK to express concern about his well being, including his drinking, as long as it doesn't come off as self-serving, as in he would be pleasant to be around if he wasn't drinking.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

Just Joe said:


> This is what progress looks like early on. He can leave if he wants but he isn't. He's waiting for you to do something stupid to confirm his worst suspicions.
> 
> I didn't want my wife asking me where my head was at. Lay off that one. "None of your business where my damn head is at, where the f was your head at when you risked our daughter's future happiness?" That's what I would be thinking.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much. It's good to know what men who have been in this situation felt. I was asking where his head was at because I was worried about him. It came out wrong.... 

He took it as me looking for some kind of relationship status. I had to clear that up pretty quickly and let him know that we are in no place to define status right now. It's way too soon. 

As you said- he's here. That's enough for me right now. My husband is better in every way than the jerk I decided to ruin our marriage with, so it's perfectly realistic for me to say so, with absolute sincerity. And I know he's waiting for me to mess up again, so I'm doing everything in my power not to. He said it helps that I quit drinking and going out, so I'm sticking with that. There is hope for us yet! He also said he loved me, after I hugged him and told him how sorry I was and that I am so grateful for the opportunity to R, and of course that I love him. He wouldn't say it if he didn't mean it. 

I'm just happy he cracked a smile today at the end of our conversation. I asked if I'm allowed to initiate intimacy if I felt like it, since he does the same (Sorry if TMI, it was funny though). He's been so apathetic lately, it was nice to see something positive.


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

Good to see that there are some positives.

It is good that he is not making a decision right now on R or D.

It helps that he is not making this important decision while his mind is so much on the roller coaster of the A. 

He is trying to drown his pain in the bottle. That will not work.

He might need to try for AA. Glad you stopped the GNO.

Keep initiating, it will help your H with his self esteem, eventually.

He does need to someday feel like he is not your backup plan.


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## poida (Jan 17, 2014)

rrhouse said:


> Thank you... I'm working on my fourth week of no drinking, no outings. Divorce will be a decision he makes, I'm here to help him heal. He will barely speak to me right now.. I'm so worried about him. I feel awful that I made him feel that way.


Can I say something?

Giving your husband space right now will only bring doubt into his mind.

The more you can show that you want him, desire him, value him, honour him, do anything for him, the more likely you can move toward fixing the other problems in your marriage.

I'm SURE your husband is also acutely aware of the problems in your marriage and deep down, also wants to work on them. 

I would also be prepared to take a good hard look at yourself and your part in the relationship breakdown. These things rarely happen by themselves. In fact, you can get PC and start this process yourself.

If you get past the infidelity, you will probably need to be very open minded about your own issues that need work for the relationship to work long term.

I know that my wife has "father figure" issues (the need for) and when I began to become depressed, her reliance on me became an issue. She stopped working on herself and I suspect will have a life long issue relating to this.

So, if at a minimum for your future relationships (should this one fail), you should see a PC.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

Rrhouse

Your husband is older than you. How much older? Your first marriage? His first? You both just have the one child? Or does he have others?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

poida said:


> Can I say something?
> 
> Giving your husband space right now will only bring doubt into his mind.
> 
> ...


Actually, what he likely needs right now is a tenuous balance of space and *not* space.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

Counseling is at the top of my priority list right now, for sure. I've been putting it off for quite some time, as I have terrible social anxiety/ panic disorder. I can relate on the codependency as well, I have issues with that. His depression made me feel lonely/rejected and then I'd question our whole relationship over a bad day.

As for giving him space, I'm just trying to tread lightly. I'm in this house almost all the time, so we have to interact any time he's here. I try to get him to talk about issues once every few days just to check in. I also try to keep reminding him that I'm here and I want to help. 

We got to sit down together as a family for dinner tonight and he was surprisingly pleasant! He was gone afternoon with the guys playing golf, so he must have let off some steam. 



poida said:


> Can I say something?
> 
> Giving your husband space right now will only bring doubt into his mind.
> 
> ...


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Just curious... What does your husband do for a living?


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

I'm 26, first marriage, we only have one child. We've been together 4 years. 
He's 31, second marriage, he married young and unfortunately his 1st wife cheated within weeks of the wedding. He attempted reconciliation and he found her at OM's house two weeks later. I didn't want to bring that up on here, but I'm sure that's playing a big role in his recovery right now. For him to even be offering up a second chance after that is HUGE, in my opinion. 






nuclearnightmare said:


> Rrhouse
> 
> Your husband is older than you. How much older? Your first marriage? His first? You both just have the one child? Or does he have others?


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> Just curious... What does your husband do for a living?



He works with drill bits... brazing, inspection, repair, etc.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Taken from another thread...



IPoH said:


> As far as anything being off, yes things have been off between us, since October 14th last year when I riped his heart out and ruined him. He became alcohol dependent and numb. The great thing about being numb is you don't feel the pain, the bad part is you also can't feel any love. I really think that is a major reason any of my efforts to show him how much I love him, how much he means to me and how sorry I am for what I did have been seen by him but not felt.


OP, something to consider.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

rrhouse said:


> Today isn't going so well. I tried to ask him where is head was at so I can help him somehow.
> 
> His response was to yell about how I can't help him and I don't want to hear what he's thinking. And then he stormed off...
> 
> ...


Welcome to our world! 

-sammy


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

So, it's been a while since I posted and we now are having many more good days than bad. He has moments where he comes home angry after a day of bad 'visuals'. I try to give him space when he's like that, but it ends in him getting overly drunk and being a jerk all night. I'm getting to a point where I feel like he's not going to heal if he keeps getting drunk very time he has a bad day. I've been staying at home and working my butt off at my new job and not going out, unless i have errands. He continues to go out and drink with buddies whenever and wherever he wants, and I'm basically not allowed to protest without starting a three day silent treatment. 
In addition to this, today we found out we're expecting another child. (It's definitely his- there's no question there) After looking at the test, he grilled me on how soon I can start making more money (still a full time mom, working at home), and then stormed out of the house without saying anything, ending up at a bar all night. When I texted him to see whay happened he said he had "emotions" and needed to get out. Then he came home like it was no big deal and didn't speak to me for the rest of the night. 
At what point do I say enough is enough? I don't feel that my mistake gives him a license to drink profusely and walk out on his family with no repercussions. Are we reconciling or is he just using me being "the bad guy" as an excuse to have a bad attitude and do whatever he pleases. This is behavior we had an issue with before and I don't think it's fair for him to blame me for making him this way, when he was already like that to begin with. 
I'm trying so hard to be supportive of his healing process. It doesn't help that he's been working 6, sometimes 7 days a week lately and is worn out and exhausted. I don't know if that triggers anger about the affair or if it's just easy for him to take stress out on me because we're still trying to heal from all of this. If we're going to have another child we need to figure something out. 

Sorry for the rant, it's just been a rough day.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

rrhouse said:


> So, it's been a while since I posted and we now are having many more good days than bad. He has moments where he comes home angry after a day of bad 'visuals'. I try to give him space when he's like that, but it ends in him getting overly drunk and being a jerk all night. I'm getting to a point where I feel like *he's not going to heal if he keeps getting drunk very time he has a bad day.*


Correct. He needs to lay off the booze.



rrhouse said:


> I've been staying at home and working my butt off at my new job and not going out, unless i have errands. He continues to go out and drink with buddies whenever and wherever he wants, and I'm basically not allowed to protest without starting a three day silent treatment.
> In addition to this, today we found out we're expecting another child. (It's definitely his- there's no question there) After looking at the test, he grilled me on how soon I can start making more money (still a full time mom, working at home), and then stormed out of the house without saying anything, ending up at a bar all night. When I texted him to see whay happened he said he had "emotions" and needed to get out. Then he came home like it was no big deal and didn't speak to me for the rest of the night.


How much is he spending at the bar each night? Surely it would be cheaper to drink at home; not that that would be a good idea either, but, if money were such an issue, _and he just had to drink_, I'd think that he'd feel inclined to do that. Is he hanging out w/ someone at the bar?

And please, he's not "getting out" any emotions... he's drowning them w/ alcohol!



rrhouse said:


> At what point do I say enough is enough?


Now may very well be the time, especially w/ another child on the way. Not sure what that would entail, though... You mentioned that you have family nearby, correct?



rrhouse said:


> I don't feel that my mistake gives him a license to drink profusely and walk out on his family with no repercussions. Are we reconciling or is he just using me being "the bad guy" as an excuse to have a bad attitude and do whatever he pleases. This is behavior we had an issue with before and I don't think it's fair for him to blame me for making him this way, when he was already like that to begin with.
> I'm trying so hard to be supportive of his healing process. It doesn't help that he's been working 6, sometimes 7 days a week lately and is worn out and exhausted. I don't know if that triggers anger about the affair or if it's just easy for him to take stress out on me because we're still trying to heal from all of this.


No doubt you're in a tough spot. You f*cked up, but you know that, you've owned it, and you've been trying to help him heal. Could you be doing more? That'd be hard for anyone here to say, as we're not in the house w/ you. Maybe... I dunno.

Look, here's the bottom line... Reconciliation is hard work, and there's plenty of work for both spouses to do -- this obviously includes the BS, and _*especially* if he or she contributed what could realistically be considered the lion's share of issues into the pre-affair marriage_. He doesn't get a free pass on being an abusive, sloppy, emo drunk (either before or after your affair) just because you cheated. Additionally, if he's not willing to put in the work that's necessary for him to heal, then he's not going to heal. Period.

You mentioned at one point that, just after he discovered your affair, he freely and openly admitted that he needed to put a stop to all of the excessive drinking, as well as (and most certainly) the emotional abuse. What's his take on this now?



rrhouse said:


> If we're going to have another child we need to figure something out.


Correct!



rrhouse said:


> Sorry for the rant, it's just been a rough day.


Hang in there!


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

Your husband is struggling greatly because you betrayed him in the same way his first wife did. 

Does he need to get off the booze, yes. Is he using it to medicate his pain, almost certainly.

While he needs to face the demon you unleashed upon him- you need to find a big dose of understanding as well. 

He probably needs IC and you guys certainly need MC. Of course that is difficult to work in the schedule when he is busting it 6 or 7 days a week at work as you describe. 

Your statement that it is hard to support his healing process... yeah I guess it would be. You are either in or out. You need to make up your mind and stick to it.

This is something that can be overcome. There are successful stories of R on this board. However, I believe that you must both be willing to commit. Right now, you need to do the heavy lifting. Unfortunately, you can't un-cheat on a spouse. You can however, commit fully to R and put in the hard work trying to rebuild.

I hope you both find a healthy environment to raise children in. If I was your husband, I would certainly be questioning the paternity of the child at this time, even if I didn't verbalize that thought.

I wish you and your family well. This is a tough spot.

WD


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> Correct. He needs to lay off the booze.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're so kind for being supportive of me through this rough time!


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

workindad said:


> Your husband is struggling greatly because you betrayed him in the same way his first wife did.
> 
> Does he need to get off the booze, yes. Is he using it to medicate his pain, almost certainly.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much. We need some well-wishes for sure. I am 100% committed to reconciliation. While I talk a lot on this forum, I try to keep my own feelings quiet at home. If I get my feelings hurt or am annoyed, I don't mention it to him. I know he will be angry sometimes and while it hurts my feelings, I deserve it. My main concern is his health, and then there's the issue that his drinking is going to stunt the healing process. 

I do believe we can work through it, but to do that we have to actually _work through it. Drinking to stave off the emotions keeps us in the same place. He refuses to go to counseling, because he strongly feels like he shouldn't have to do any work when I put us in this situation. He is both right and wrong in saying that, I think... Anyway I plan on getting counseling for myself, at least. Just as soon as I scrounge up the $$. Those people aren't cheap. 

As far as questioning paternity, I'm pretty sure he's not questioning *if* I'm messing around, but *when*. He knows I'm not doing anything now but he thinks it could happen again. We were able to pinpoint a date of conception and we were out of town together, so there's really no question. I think it's more of an issue for him that we were kind of feeling the situation out/ seeing if reconciliation would work, and now there is a second child being thrown in the mix. If there was any chance for him to get out of the relationship, it just got reduced greatly. He's adamant about giving his child(ren) the best life possible. Our first child is the only reason he considered working it out to begin with. However, lashing out at me for this particular situation isn't fair. I mean, it takes two people to make a baby. 

I don't know, I'm just assuming. I'm sure we'll talk more about it once things cool off._


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

rrhouse said:


> I'm not sure how to comment within the post to answer questions, so my apologies if this comes out horribly! I'd estimate he's spending at least $100-200 a week on bar outings PLUS 3 big bottles of booze a week. It's not cheap. He knows drinking at home is cheaper and will pass up outings sometimes for the sake of saving money.


Holy crap! Well at least we know why he's wanting you to work so badly...



rrhouse said:


> I know he goes out with one of his best friends who is actually really nice to me despite me doing what I did. That particular friend is actually divorced because his wife cheated on him, so I'm surprised he doesn't hate me- although he did suggest my husband get that hall pass I mentioned before... Not so nice.


Yeah... Not so helpful. I'm guessing he's an alcoholic as well? Either way, what was this "friend's" take on your pre-affair marital problems?

IIRC, when you cheated, you were more or less under the impression that your marriage was done and over, correct? Again, I'm not letting you off the hook for anything, I'm just trying to get a better understanding of your mindset at the time.



rrhouse said:


> Exactly! I want to be supportive of his healing but I will not support him letting his health go and blaming it on me. He's been a highly functional alcoholic for over a decade.


Sounds like he's "functioning" less and less these days.



rrhouse said:


> I do... I've considered taking a weekend to stay with family, but I don't want him to trigger like he did last time.


At the end of the day, you've got to do what's best for your children.



rrhouse said:


> I'm trying to do the best I can given the circumstances. I know reconciliation depends a lot on the WS being selfless, and that's my biggest downfall. I get emotional easily and react to his bad days.


In what ways are you reacting?



rrhouse said:


> Shortly after having this epiphany, he took a 180 and started questioning why he was being punished for my wrongdoing. He doesn't feel that he should change when I was the one who cheated- and in a way he's right. I should do all the heavy lifting, as you said. However, I can only change my own drinking habits.


Actually, while you certainly have your fair share of heavy lifting to do, it wouldn't be fair to place it _all_ on you, and especially since your husband's problems w/ alcohol predate the affair. After all, he was an alcoholic before you cheated, and he's still an alcoholic now.

I'll be honest... TAM might not be the right place for you. I'm not saying that you should disregard anything that you've learned here, but you may need to find a site that can better assist you in getting help for dealing w/ your husband's alcohol abuse. Actually... take a look at the Relationships and Addiction forum here on TAM.

After all, you don't want your children to grow up watching helplessly as their father slowly slips further and further into the thrall of alcohol abuse, do you? And here's why...

Google Search - Adult Children of Alcoholics


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

rrhouse,

It is still early in your attempt to R, so no need to hit the panic button yet.

But I do think its important for you to consider a potential reality you are facing.

You may have broken your H and M too badly to fix.

He was/is an insensitive a**, and you had (and still have) every right to demand that this change.

But the combination of the following facts might mean that it will never heal.

* The A itself...simply gasoline to the fire of pre-A problems

* Your BH's second rodeo...WORST choice possible knowing his past

* Initial blameshifting and continued GNOs

* Continued contact with POS after D-Day

* Protecting POS- warning him about BH (REALLY bad move)

Your head and heart seem to be in the right place, and its still early, but you need to consider the possibility that the above things just did too much damage to the M and BH.

Things may just never get better.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

rrhouse said:


> Thanks so much. We need some well-wishes for sure. I am 100% committed to reconciliation. While I talk a lot on this forum, I try to keep my own feelings quiet at home. If I get my feelings hurt or am annoyed, I don't mention it to him. I know he will be angry sometimes and while it hurts my feelings, I deserve it. *My main concern is his health, and then there's the issue that his drinking is going to stunt the healing process.*


Yep. He's also using his kidneys, liver, and pancreas as punching bags.



rrhouse said:


> I do believe we can work through it, but to do that we have to actually _work through it. Drinking to stave off the emotions keeps us in the same place. *He refuses to go to counseling, because he strongly feels like he shouldn't have to do any work when I put us in this situation.* He is both right and wrong in saying that, I think... Anyway I plan on getting counseling for myself, at least. Just as soon as I scrounge up the $$. Those people aren't cheap._


_

He's wrong. And about the expense, does his job offer any sort of health benefits that would cover counseling? Hell, he clearly needed (and still needs!) to see someone about the drinking even before the affair... and now even more so.



rrhouse said:



As far as questioning paternity, I'm pretty sure he's not questioning *if* I'm messing around, but *when*.

Click to expand...

Well, if he's not doing anything to get off the sauce, it will indeed probably be little more than a question of not if, but when.



rrhouse said:



He knows I'm not doing anything now but he thinks it could happen again. We were able to pinpoint a date of conception and we were out of town together, so there's really no question. I think it's more of an issue for him that we were kind of feeling the situation out/ seeing if reconciliation would work, and now there is a second child being thrown in the mix. If there was any chance for him to get out of the relationship, it just got reduced greatly. *He's adamant about giving his child(ren) the best life possible.*

Click to expand...

But he's not...



rrhouse said:



Our first child is the only reason he considered working it out to begin with. However, lashing out at me for this particular situation isn't fair. I mean, it takes two people to make a baby.

Click to expand...

Yep and yep.



rrhouse said:



I don't know, I'm just assuming. I'm sure we'll talk more about it once things cool off.

Click to expand...

Hopefully so. And without the booze._


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

GP does bring up a good point. If he is working full time, he should have health insurance. Have you called them to check and see if counseling is covered? 

If yes, then you may be able to start sooner rather than later.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> Holy crap! Well at least we know why he's wanting you to work so badly...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice. I'm seriously considering getting out of this situation and calling it a lesson learned. I am beginning to feel like the other posters are right and the damage is done. He will never heal if this path continues and it's so unhealthy for everyone involved. I can't believe he's saying he doesn't want his own child, and raging out on me as if I single-handedly created it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

rrhouse said:


> Thanks for the advice. I'm seriously considering getting out of this situation and calling it a lesson learned. I am beginning to feel like the other posters are right and the damage is done. He will never heal if this path continues and it's so unhealthy for everyone involved. I can't believe he's saying he doesn't want his own child, and raging out on me as if I single-handedly created it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


looks like all my responses are stuck in the red box in the post above. Oops. Posting from my cell, so I can't format it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *By rrhouse*
> Thanks for the advice. I'm seriously considering getting out of this situation and calling it a lesson learned. I am beginning to feel like the other posters are right and the damage is done. *He will never heal if this path continues and it's so unhealthy for everyone involved.* I can't believe he's saying he doesn't want his own child, and raging out on me as if I single-handedly created it



It has only been 4 months since d-day but he has habits (addiction) that he has been feeding for years. The good news is that it has only been 4-months and that is very early to expect to see a lot of relief for you or him. The bad news is that he has a lifestyle that has produced habits and addictions.

*I am sure he has some good points but his alcohol problem will eventually outweigh his good points.* If he is ever going to have a chance at keeping his family together he has to COMPLETY CHANGE HIS LIFESTYLE. I am not talking about cutting down on drinking and drinking at home; *I am talking about changing his WHOLE lifestyle like those that have had successful marriages for decades.* There are a ton of resources that he can get if he really wants to get better.

He has to realize that he is a much wounded man from both marriages and be willing and be strong enough to do what has to be done to get a LOT better. His refusing to go to counseling and/or get help is a complete cop-out by him. His excuses for not getting competent help are weak and pitiful. *Every one knows that what you did to him is terrible but the past cannot be changed but the future can.*


If he was 100% committed to helping his child he would do whatever he needs to do to help his child have a better life. His refusing help and drinking like an alcoholic is proof that he is not 100% committed and is a cop-out


I think you know all this so I am not telling you this so that you can tell your husband these things that I have written even though they are true. Besides your husband will not accept any real hard truths about himself from you. I am saying these things for others that might find my points of this situation as true and maybe help others before they get into this pitiful state.




As for you rrhouse, right now you seem to be really motivated to try and get a lot better. Furthermore, you are introspective and intelligent and HAVE TAKEN SOME ACTION to get better. You have stopped that silly teenage crap of drinking and going to the bars. It appears that you are pliable and can be changed and would take good advise and act on it. However, you will have to be very strong in many areas and be determined and persistent to build yourself back up because you have damaged yourself. 

You are very limited in how much help you can be for your husband because he has the attitude and lifestyle that he has. *Until he takes some actions to stop his alcoholism you are just pissing in the wind.* If he stays in that state then you would be better off working mostly only on you to build yourself up. The very best that you can hope for with him, if he does not change, is that you will have a very troubled marriage with very little to no real love because your husband’s first love will be his bottle and his negative emotions.

If your husband starts to change then I would encourage you to keep building yourself up so that you can be of real help to him. He has a lot of baggage and also an alcohol problem and you will have to get considerably much stronger in order to be enough help to make any difference if he starts to change.

You seem to already know how much damage that you have done to yourself, your husband, and your child so there is no need to point that out to you. One big difference at this time is that you seem to be really motivated to change your lifestyle. *You need to get a woman that has been successful in life for decades and have her as your mentor nd listen and do like she has.* You are ripe right now for listening to someone like your mentor and that is the best time for you to change because changes for decades are hard.


You were so right when you said 

*



“He will never heal if this path continues and it's so unhealthy for everyone involved.”

Click to expand...

*

*What determines if a person is changed are ACTIONS. Words and feelings cannot be trusted *


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

Mr Blunt said:


> It has only been 4 months since d-day but he has habits (addiction) that he has been feeding for years. The good news is that it has only been 4-months and that is very early to expect to see a lot of relief for you or him. The bad news is that he has a lifestyle that has produced hits and addictions.
> You are so right, especially since it took me a few months to stop acting like an idiot. I think R really started when I stopped drinking almost 2 months ago.
> 
> *I am sure he has some good points but his alcohol problem will eventually outweigh his good points.* If he is ever going to have a chance at keeping his family together he has to COMPLETY CHANGE HIS LIFESTYLE. I am not talking about cutting down on drinking and drinking at home; *I am talking about changing his WHOLE lifestyle like those that have had successful marriages for decades.* There are a ton of resources that he can get if he really wants to get better.
> ...


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

By rrhouse
It's hard to say whether or not his heart is really in reconciling, or if it's possible for him to ever respect me as a human being. He didn't before the A and I don't know if he can now


*It is not hard for me to say that his heart is NOT really in reconciling.* One of the reasons that I can say that is what you said below

Whilst belligerently waving his glass of rum around he announced that his drinking is absolutely my fault and how dare I tell him how to deal with the situation

*When an alcoholic blames someone else for his drinking you know that he is not on the road to recovery or reconciliation*. Furthermore, he is not going to respect you because right now he does not respect himself. He would rather blame you and make other excuses as to why he failed to get his alcohol under control. TEXT book denial! He is not even to first base on this alcohol problem; do not expect much progress unless he takes responsibility for his own demons. In fact thing will probably get worse if he des not change.








*There is literally nothing I can do at this point besides help myself*

That is what I thought also!

*You have so much to work on for yourself that you cannot possibly be much help to someone like your husband with his attitude and actions.*

You may get some posters telling you that it is your responsibility to fix your husband because you cheated on him. You are responsible to do everything that you can to help him with healing over your betrayal. However, right now you are not capable of helping him with his alcohol problems and other non-betrayal issues that you had nothing to with. In a perfect world you could help him and yourself but I think that you are too weak right now because of your betrayal and the other things that you have told us about. Here is the bottom line on what I see right now:

*You are too weak to help your husband and he is too weak to help you right now especially since he has refused outside help.* The only option you have right now is for you to get all the help that you can for yourself. Again I would strongly recommend that you include in your helps a woman that has success in life for decades, one that wants what is best for you. Seek this woman out and if you find her be willing to change to follow in her foot steps.



Frankly you are young and have thought and acted like a teen ager for several years and have only recently (3 weeks) taken some actions to change that. Do no take offence at this fact but concentrate on what will help you. In addition, use all the other resources that you can find and there are many. You have had an immatutre outlook on adult married life and now you have added emotional damage to yourself.

*What I see you have going for you is that you are seeking out answers, you are not blaming others for your for your betrayal, you have taken some actions to eliminate the negative of bars and drinking, you are intelligent, and seem willing to change.*


You are damaged and need to rebuild yourself and without any extra weight hanging around your neck. If your husband is not going to take any actions to get better and is dragging you down then you need to do what is best for you and your child. That may very well mean to separate from him. *You have guilt over what you have done but make that guilt work for you and motivate you to do the things that will improve you. DO NOT allow that guilt to tell you that you have no hope or to drag you into depression and paralysis.*

No one is going to get the ball rolling for you except you. You will need help from others and God but you have to do your part. Do not just depend on TAM to be your sole support even though TAM can help. You need to get someone face to face that has a long success tact record.


Do not expect things to get a lot better in a month or two although things can get a little better. Your improvement plan will take years to get a LOT better. *You are young so you have a great advantage; you have lots of time to work your plan. Add to that perseverance and patience and you are on your way to having a better life for you and your children.*


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## Wideopn Dave (Apr 11, 2013)

rrHouse,

This was sent to me after I discovered my (now ex) wife's infidelity which after six months of false reconciliation led to our splitting.

I haven't read the full 9 pages so don't know the full story. However, have a read of this. 

Then, from the little I have read, your husband needs help with his alchohol consumption. Drinking never solved anything.

Face off the "demons", say "challenge accepted" and give it your all recognising that ultimately, you both need to do what is best for your child so that the impact on their lives is minimised.

Good luck.
D


YOU BETRAYED YOUR PARTNER. NOW COMES THE FALLOUT.

They discovered your adultery. You ended the affair and promised you’ll never cheat again. But the stress from their emotional devastation lingers. And you don’t see much change – at least, not as much positive change as you expected. Many times, any visible changes are for the worse. 

You observe them bouncing back and forth like a ping-pong ball, moment to moment, from one emotion to the next. They’re unpredictable. There’s no discernible pattern. Their nerves are frayed. They can’t sleep. They can’t eat. Their thoughts are obsessive. Intrusive visions and flashbacks assault them without warning. They cry at the drop of a hat. They feel empty, used up, exhausted. The stress consumes their energy and their life until they feel like there’s nothing left. It’s terrible.

It’s an ordeal for you to witness their tortured, depressed and angry states, and what’s worse; you don’t know what to do. You’re not alone. Unfaithful spouses never dream they’ll get busted, so when confronted with their adultery they’re always caught by surprise; first by their partners’ knowledge, then by their intense agony. Indeed, unfaithful partners never think about what they’ll face “after” until after. The fact is: Though they inflict it, adulterers are unprepared for the onslaught of their spouses’ overwhelming emotional distress. Is this real? Is this permanent?

As you watch them sink lower and lower, wallowing in an emotional abyss, you wonder where the bottom is, when they will hit it, and if they will ever ascend from it and return to “normal.” You ask yourself, “Is this real?” Then you ask, “Will this ever end?” The simple answers are: Yes, it is real. And, yes, it will end. But recovery takes a long time, often years, and much depends on you. Can you be remorseful, apologetic, loving, patient, empathetic and soothing over an extended period of time? Can you commit to openness and honesty at all times and forevermore being faithful to your spouse? 

Be honest with yourself: If you can’t or don’t want to get over your affair, if you don’t feel shame and remorse, and if you can’t generously provide appropriate support to your spouse, then now is the time to consider ending your marriage and spare your marital partner further pain. (If this is the case, you need not read any further.)

But if you have put the affair permanently behind you, if you feel and can freely express your remorse and shame for your unfaithfulness, and if you can commit to supporting your spouse through their excruciating anguish, then you have an excellent chance of rebuilding from this disaster you’ve wrought to a happy, satisfying, caring and loving marriage. The following is intended to help you help your partner, and in turn yourself, through this horrible time and jumpstart your journey to recovery.

So, take a couple of deep breaths… and let’s start with three foundational facts:

What you’re seeing in your spouse is a normal reaction to a life-changing event. 

Your spouse needs to grieve for as long as it takes in order to recover and heal. 

You can be a positive influence on their recovery. 

Now, go back and reread them several times. Let them really sink in. When you can repeat them without looking, continue.

Your first mission is to learn.

Learning about your partner’s myriad reactions to your betrayal allows you to recognize, understand and properly respond to them as they occur. Doing so will help you get through
this horrible initial stage, which can last a long time.
Below you’ll find a little of what your spouse is probably experiencing. They may shift from one reaction to another, or they could experience multiple reactions concurrently. And don’t be surprised if they return to previous states many times. Where applicable, we’ve added some tips to help you to assist your partner through this. In some cases, however, there may be little for you to do except to simply “be there.” 

Most importantly, remember at all times: Your infidelity has traumatized your spouse. Act accordingly. 

SECTION 1 - THE WILD PATCHWORK OF EMOTIONS

DISBELIEF: They expect to wake up any minute from this nightmare. It can’t be true. They don’t believe it. This is natural. They trusted you and don’t want to believe you did what you did. It is common for this to occur in the very first moments of discovery. (Note: If some time elapsed between the discovery of your affair and the confrontation, you may have missed this when it happened, but it is also possible for your spouse to return to disbelief.)

SHOCK: They are numb and often seem dazed. Their emotions are frozen. Their senses are dulled. They go through the motions mechanically, robotically, but can’t seem to apply sufficient concentration to their day-to-day lives.

REALITY: “Oh my God. It really happened.” They feel they’re getting worse. Actually, reality has just set in. It’s as if a ton of bricks just fell on them and they’re buried beneath them. They don’t know where to turn, or can’t. Don’t discount the likelihood that they feel shamed by your infidelity. So, they may be reluctant to seek support from friends and family. Be available to them for emotional support and encourage them to talk freely with anyone they choose. Suggest therapy as a means to help them through their trauma, but never accuse them of “being irrational” or “acting crazy.” Be supportive and encouraging. Commend them for seeking help.

CONFUSION: They’re disoriented. They can’t think straight. They become impatient, disorganized and forgetful. More frequently than usual they go to a room to retrieve something, but once they get there they can’t remember what it was. This is very upsetting to them. Bear with them. Be gentle and be helpful. Help them find their misplaced purse or locate their lost keys. Know that they will eventually come out of the fog. Also be aware that their confusion, as with other states listed here, may be set off or magnified by certain “triggers.” (Note: Read more about “triggers” below.)

PHYSICAL SYMPTOMS: They may sleep or eat too little – or too much. They may suffer physical aches and pains, numbness or weakness. They may feel unusually tense and develop headaches, abnormal tics, twitching or shaking. They may feel sick to their stomach and vomit, or their digestive system may react with constipation or diarrhea. Weight loss is common. Usually the symptoms fade gradually. If these symptoms persist, make sure they check with a doctor to rule out other causes. Encourage them to eat well and to exercise – but don’t nag. You might instead take control of their diet by preparing healthy, well balanced meals. If you don’t cook, take them to restaurants where you know they serve nourishing food and, if necessary, order for them. If they’re not exercising, initiate taking long walks together. It’s a good way to ease them into a healthy exercise regimen, which is always a good stress reliever, and will provide opportunity for you to begin constructively re-establishing your “couplehood.”

CRYING: Deep emotions suddenly well up, seeking release as crying, uncontrollable sobbing and even screaming out loud. Allow them their time for tears. They can help. So can you. When they cry, give them your shoulder. Hug them. Help them through it by gently encouraging them, to “get it all out.” Be certain to verbalize your remorse for causing their pain. They need to hear this from you. (Note: Right now, genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit. That is why you’ll see many more references below. Read “Apologize” in Section 2.)

SELF-CONTROL: They control their emotions to fulfill their responsibilities, or to simply rest from the pain. Self-control can shape and give rhythm to their grieving, but be on the lookout for constant and rigid self-control. It can block healing. They need to reduce their emotional pressure to regain equilibrium. Allow them to vent when it happens. Be aware: Too much self-control means they are storing up much anger and will release it powerfully, like floodwaters breaking through a dam. So don’t be alarmed if they suddenly lash out at you, your affair partner, or even themselves. Understand that the release of anger is necessary to heal. Though it may not feel this way to you when it happens, it’s beneficial.

NEED TO KNOW: They will ask lots of questions. Their curiosity may be insatiable or it may be limited. Different people have different needs and tolerances for information, but they need information to process their trauma, move through it, and move past it.

Let them set the agenda. Whenever they ask a question, whatever they ask, answer honestly and sufficiently. Refusing to answer gives the appearance that you’re still keeping them in the dark, that you still have something to hide. Do not hold anything back. If they discover later that you omitted or hid details, or if the facts they discover don’t match the story you tell, they’ll feel betrayed once again. Follow the delivery of each new piece of hurtful information with an apology, and soothe them with another promise that you’ll never again be unfaithful.

WHY: They ask, “Why did you do this?” They may or may not expect an answer, but they ask repeatedly. If they do want an answer, provide it – and answer honestly. Even if the question is rhetorical, be aware that the question itself, rhetorical or not, is a cry of pain. And each time they feel pain, it should be answered with another apology. (I can’t stress enough how important this is.) Be aware: Even if they are not verbalizing this to you, they are still silently asking the question “Why?” over and over and over again.

INJUSTICE: They feel it’s all so unfair. You invited danger, you took the risk, but they suffered injury. They want justice and begin to think like a vigilante. They may harbour a secret desire to do harm to you or your affair partner. They may want to get even by having a “revenge affair.” 

Understand that the aftermath of your unfaithfulness is an agony you have thrust upon them. Meanwhile, despite your betrayal and deceit, and the shame you feel, you and your affair partner may retain fond or even loving memories of your affair. One of my patients described her feelings of injustice this way: “I feel like a rape victim watching helplessly as the jury returns a ‘not guilty’ verdict. Then, the assailant looks at me, points his finger at me and laughs all the way out of the courtroom. How can this possibly happen?”

A sad truth of infidelity is: It is unfair. Of course, there is no “justice” that can come from this. Betrayed spouses generally settle into this realization on their own, but they need to know that you understand how this plagues them. (Note: Read “Share your feelings of guilt and shame” in Section 2. It explains the best way to help them through their sense of injustice.)

INADEQUACY: Their self-esteem is shattered. They feel belittled, insignificant, and often even unlovable. Just as you would crumple a piece of scrap paper and toss it in the garbage without a second thought, they feel you crushed them, discarded them, and didn’t give them a second thought, either. So, they question their own value. They wonder if you truly love them – or if anyone could. They need to know why you now choose them over your affair partner, even if they don’t ask. Make your case convincingly. Be generous, but be genuine. They’ll know if you aren’t, and false flattery for the purpose of mere appeasement will only hurt them more.

REPEATING: Over and over again, they review the story, thinking the same thoughts. Do not attempt to stop them. Repeating helps them to absorb and process the painful reality. You can help them get through it by answering all their questions truthfully and filling in all the gaps for them. The more they know – the more they can repeat the complete story – the faster they process it, accept it and begin to heal. If the story remains incomplete or significant gaps are filled in later, they may have to start the process all over again.

IDEALIZING: Sometimes they remember only good memories, as if their time with you was perfect. They long to live in the past, before the affair came along and “messed it up.” Assure them that you, too, remember the good times, and want things to be good again. Remind them that you want an even better future, that you are willing to work at it, and, most importantly, that you want your future with them – and not your affair partner.

FRUSTRATION: Their past fulfillments are gone. They haven’t found new ones yet and don’t seem interested in finding any. They feel they’re not coping with grief “right” or they feel they should be healing faster. They don’t understand why the pain returns again and again. They wonder if they will ever recover and feel better. You can help them by verbalizing what they need to hear even if you don’t or can’t fully understand it yourself. Be empathetic and assure them that under the circumstances they’re doing okay. Remember that despite how much you have hurt them, you are still the one they chose as their life partner, for better or for worse. You may still be their closest confidante. As incongruous as it may seem, don’t be surprised if they choose to confide in you over others.

BITTERNESS: Feelings of resentment and hatred toward you and your paramour are to be expected. Don’t be surprised if they redirect much of the anger that’s really meant for you toward your paramour. This is natural. It’s actually a way of protecting their love for you during the early stages. By restricting their anger toward you, they allow it to be time-released, and only in smaller, more manageable amounts. Expect their anger to surface periodically, and give them plenty of time to work through it so they can eventually let go of it. Understand that until they’ve worked through and exhausted their anger, they cannot heal.

WAITING: The initial struggle is waning, but their zest for life has not returned. They are in limbo, they are exhausted and uncertain. Indeed, life seems flat and uninteresting. They are unenthused about socializing, perhaps reluctant, and they are unable to plan activities for themselves. Help them by finding ways to stimulate them. Plan activities for them around things that hold their interest and bring joy back into their life.

EMOTIONS IN CONFLICT: This is one of the most difficult manifestations because there is so much going on at the same time and their feelings do not always synchronize with reality. The most succinct description was provided by the late Shirley Glass, PhD: “One of the ironies of healing from infidelity is that the perpetrator must become the healer. This means that betrayed partners are vulnerable because the person they are most likely to turn to in times of trouble is precisely the source of their danger.” The inherent conflict for a betrayed spouse is obvious, but Dr. Glass also recognized how difficult this balancing act can be for a repentant adulterer: “On the other hand, [unfaithful] partners sometimes find it hard to stay engaged with their spouses when they know they are the source of such intense pain.” The key, of course, is to stay engaged nonetheless. Be supportive and remorseful, and above all… keep talking.

TRIGGERS: Particular dates, places, items and activities can bring back their pain as intensely as ever. It feels like they’re caught in a loop as they relive the trauma. It is emotionally debilitating.

Triggers can cause days and nights of depression, renew anger, and can spark and reignite nightmares, which may make them fear sleeping. Triggers can cause them to question if they will ever again experience life without the anguish. Get rid of all the reminders immediately: Gifts, letters, pictures, cards, emails, clothing… whatever your spouse associates with your affair. Do this with your spouse so they are not left wondering when those triggers may recur. Never cling to anything that bothers your partner. It leaves the impression that your keepsakes and mementos, or any reminders of your affair, are more important to you than they are.

Attend to your partner. Learn what dates, songs, places, etc., are triggers for your partner. Pay attention to your environment: If you hear or see something that you think might be a trigger, assume it is. Each occasion a trigger arises is an appropriate moment for you to communicate a clear and heartfelt message that you’re sorry you acted so selfishly and caused this recurring pain. So again, apologize and let them know how much you love them. The occurrence of a trigger is also a good opportunity to express that you choose them and not your affair partner, which is important for them to hear. If a trigger occurs in public, you can still wrap your arm around your spouse’s waist or shoulder, or simply squeeze their hand, but verbalize your apology as soon as you are alone again.

It is very important for you to understand and remember this… Triggers can remain active for their entire life. Don’t ever think or insist that enough time has passed that they should be “over it” because another sad truth of infidelity is: Your affair will remain a permanent memory for them, subject to involuntary recall at any time – even decades later. They will NEVER be “over it.” They simply learn to deal with it better as they heal, as you earn back their trust, and as you rebuild your relationship – over time. 

SECTION 2 - WHAT ELSE CAN YOU DO TO EASE THEIR PAIN & RELIEVE THEIR STRESS?

Make certain you’ve killed the beast: Your affair must be over, in all respects, completely and forever. You cannot put your marriage in jeopardy ever again. Your spouse has given you a second chance that you probably don’t deserve. That may sound harsh, but think about it this way: Despite any marital problems the two of you experienced, you would certainly understand if they divorced you solely because of your adultery. So assume there will not be a third chance and behave accordingly.

This opportunity you have been bestowed is a monumental gift, particularly considering the anguish you caused them. Treat this gift, and your spouse, with care and due respect: No contact means NO CONTACT OF ANY KIND – EVER. 

GET INTO THERAPY: Most attempts to heal and rebuild after infidelity will fail without the assistance of a qualified therapist. Make certain you both feel comfortable with the therapist. You must trust them and have faith in their methodology. Talk about it: If of you are uncomfortable with your therapist at any time, don’t delay – find another. And if need be, yet another. Then stick with it. Save particularly volatile topics for counselling sessions. Your therapist will provide a neutral place and safe means to discuss these subjects constructively. Every so often, think back to where you were two or three months earlier. Compare that to where you are now and determine if you’re making progress. Progress will be made slowly, not daily or even weekly, so do not perform daily or weekly evaluations. Make the comparative periods long enough to allow a “moderate-term” review rather than “short-term.” Expect setbacks or even restarts, and again… stick with it.

APOLOGIZE: Actually, that should read: “Apologize, apologize, apologize.” You cannot apologize too often, but you can apologize improperly. Apologize genuinely and fully. Betrayed spouses develop a finely calibrated “insincerity radar.” A partial or disingenuous apology will feel meaningless, condescending or even insulting, particularly during the months following discovery. Your spouse will feel better if you don’t merely say, “I’m sorry.” To a betrayed spouse that sounds and feels empty. Try to continue and complete the apology by saying everything that’s now salient to your partner: “I’m ashamed I cheated on you and I’m so very sorry. I know that my lying and deceiving you has hurt you enormously. I deeply want to earn back your trust – and I want so much for you to be able, some day, to forgive me.” As noted earlier, right now genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit. 

REALIZE YOUR PARTNER WANTS TO FEEL BETTER: There is so much they have to deal with – pain, anger, disappointment, confusion and despair. Their being, their world, is swirling in a black hole of negative feelings. It’s agonizing. They wish it would stop, but they feel powerless to make it go away, which worries them even more. Remember that they can’t help it: Just as they didn’t choose for this to happen, they don’t choose to feel this way. Beyond all the possible feelings described in the section above (and that list may be incomplete in your spouse’s case), even if they don’t understand them, they do recognize that changes are occurring in themselves – and they are frightened by them. As terrible as it is for you to see their ongoing nightmare, it is far worse to live in it. Periodically assure them that you know they will get better, that you are willing to do everything necessary for them to heal and to make your marriage work. Reassure them that you are with them for the duration – no matter how long it takes – and that you intend to spend the rest of your life with them.

HIDE NOTHING, OPEN EVERYTHING: While they’re greatly angered and hurt that you were emotionally and/or sexually involved with another person, they are even more devastated by your secret life, your lies and deception. They feel no trust in you right now – and they’re 100% justified. If ever there was someone in the world they felt they could trust, it was you – until now. Now, they have difficulty believing anything you say. They are driven to check up on everything. Let them. Better still, help them. Overload them with access. The era of “covering your tracks” must end and be supplanted by total and voluntary transparency. 

You must dismantle and remove every vestige of secrecy. Offer your spouse the passwords to your email accounts – yes, even the secret one they still don’t know about. Let them bring in the mail. If you receive a letter, card or email from your paramour, let your spouse open it. If you receive a voice or text message on your cell phone, let them retrieve it and delete it. If your friends provided alibis for you, end those friendships. Do not change your phone bill to a less detailed version or delete your browser history. Provide your spouse with your credit card bills, bank account statements, cell phone bills and anything else you think they might wish to check. Immediately tell them if you hear from or accidentally run into your affair partner. Tell them where you are going, when you’ll be home, and be on time. If your plans change, notify them immediately.

The more willing you are to be transparent, the more honesty and openness they see and feel, the more “trust chits” you’ll earn. Replacing your previously secret life with complete openness is the fastest and most effective way to promote trust, even if it feels unfair or uncomfortable. Think of this as the “reverse image” of your affair: Your affair was about you selfishly making yourself feel good. Now, rebuilding trust is about selflessly making your partner feel safe with you – and you were certainly unfair to them. Keep in mind that eventually they will trust you again, but you must earn it and it will take time.

SPEND LOTS TIME WITH THEM: Assume that they want your company at all times. The more time you spend in their sight, the more they will feel a sense of safety, if only for that time. There may be times when you feel they’re a constant, perhaps even an annoying presence. Just remember that they need to be around you – more than ever. If they need time alone, they’ll let you know and you must respect that, too. Knowing where you are and who you are with reduces worry, but expect them to check up on you. Don’t take offence when this happens. Instead, welcome the opportunity: Think of each time – and each success – as receiving a check mark in the “Passed the Test” column. The more check marks you earn, the closer you are to being trusted again.

PHYSICAL CONTACT: They may or may not want to be sexual with you. If not, allow sufficient time for them to get comfortable with the idea of renewed intimacy and let them set the pace. But if so, don’t be discouraged if the sex is not optimum. They’re likely to be low on confidence and may feel self-conscious or inept. They may even act clumsily. This can be offset by lots of simple, soothing physical gestures such as hugging them, stroking them softly and providing kisses. You might try surprising them sexually. Try something new. Choose moments when they don’t expect it – it can feel fresh again. On the other hand, don’t be surprised if their sexual appetite and arousal is unusually heightened as some partners experience what’s called ‘Hysterical Bonding.’ Also be aware that during lovemaking they may suffer intrusive thoughts or mental images of you and your affair partner, so they may suddenly shut down or even burst into tears. Again, apologize for making them feel this way. Express that you choose them – and not your affair partner. Reassure them by emphasizing that they are the only one you truly want.

SHARE YOUR FEELINGS OF GUILT AND SHAME: If you exhibit no shame or guilt for hurting them, they’ll wonder if you’re truly capable of being sensitive, caring or even feeling. They may see you as callous and self-absorbed, and question if it’s really worth another try with you. But if you’re like most people who have badly hurt someone you truly love, then you certainly feel shame and guilt, though verbalizing it may be hard for you. Of course, some people do find it difficult to express these feelings, but try. You’ll find it provides a great sense of relief to share this with your partner. Moreover, do not fail to realize is how vitally important it is for your partner to hear it, to feel it, to see it in your eyes. It’s a building block in the reconstruction of trust and the repair of your marriage. Do not underestimate the power of satisfying their need to know that you are disappointed in yourself. Your opening up about this will help them feel secure again, help them to heal, and help you heal, too.

LET THEM KNOW YOU ARE HAPPY WITH YOUR CHOICE TO RECOMMIT: You probably think this is obvious, but to your betrayed partner, precious little is obvious anymore. They will wonder about this. Do not make them guess, and do not make them ask. Just tell them. If it doesn’t seem to come naturally at first, it may help if every now and then, you ask yourself, “If they had betrayed me this way, would I still be here?” (Most of us would answer, “No,” even if we can’t imagine being in that position.) When people give second chances to others, they really want to know that it’s meaningful to, and appreciated by, the recipient. So, express your thanks. Tell them how grateful you are for the opportunity to repair the damage you’ve done and rebuild your marriage. You’ll be surprised how much this simple, heartfelt act of gratitude will mean to them, and how it helps to re-establish the bond between you.

HERE’S A GREAT TIP: You will find it’s particularly meaningful to them when they’re obviously feeling low, but they’re locked in silence and aren’t expressing it to you. Just imagine… In their moments of unspoken loneliness or despair, you walk up to them, hug them and say, “I just want you to know how grateful I am that you’re giving me a second chance. Thank you so much. I love you more than ever for this. I’ve been feeling so ashamed of what I did and how much pain I caused you. I want you to know that I’ll never do anything to hurt you like this – ever again. I know I broke your heart and it torments me. I want you to know your heart is safe with me again.”

These are beautifully comforting words, particularly when they’re delivered at such a perfect
moment. You can memorize the quote, modify it, or use your own words, whatever is most
comfortable for you. The key is to include, in no particular order, all six of these components:

A statement of gratitude.

An expression of your love.

An acknowledgment of your spouse’s pain.

An admission that you caused their pain.

An expression of your sense of shame.

A promise that it will never happen again

Unfaithful spouses I’ve counselled often report that this most welcome surprise is the best thing they did to lift their partner’s spirits – as well as their own.

SECTION 3 - SO WHAT ARE THE NEXT STAGES, AFTER THEY WORK THROUGH ALL THEIR GRIEF, PAIN AND STRESS?

HOPE: They believe they will get better. They still have good days and bad days, but the good days out balance the bad. Sometimes they can work effectively, enjoy activities and really care
for others.

COMMITMENT: They know they have a choice. Life won’t be the same, but they decide to actively begin building a new life.

SEEKING: They take initiative, renewing their involvement with former friends and activities. They
begin exploring new involvements.

PEACE: They feel able to accept the affair and its repercussions, and face their own future.

LIFE OPENS UP: Life has value and meaning again. They can enjoy, appreciate, and anticipate events. They are willing to let the rest of their life be all it can be. They can more easily seek and find joy.

FORGIVENESS: While the memory will never leave them, the burden they’ve been carrying from your betrayal is lifted. Given what you have done, the pain it caused them and the anguish they lived through, this is the ultimate gift they can bestow. They give it not only to you, but to themselves. Be grateful for this gift – and cherish it always.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

And now your husband is angry because you're pregnant with what you felt was not an unplanned child and he wants you to get an abortion (from your other thread) because he still blames you for your affair?


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

Openminded said:


> And now your husband is angry because you're pregnant with what you felt was not an unplanned child and he wants you to get an abortion (from your other thread) because he still blames you for your affair?


I take full responsibility for the affair. His visuals, the nightmares, the trust issues- that is MY fault.I'm here for him and I want to help him heal from that. 

He wants me to get an abortion because he feels he made a mistake in getting me pregnant, so I guess now it's my responsibility to unwillingly end it. I refused and now I'm getting the silent treatment, after a night of vicious bullying. I refuse to take responsibility for his alcoholism and emotional abuse, which predate the affair. You don't find it sad that his behavior before the affair is about the same as it is now? These nightly insult fests are nothing new. Therefore, I don't feel like this is a result of the affair.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

What I find sad is that you are trying to R when nothing has changed with him. 

Now you are pregnant and he doesn't want this baby. Even if you do manage to really R at some point he could resent this child and treat him/her differently from your other child. I don't know the solution but this is a very complicated situation and no longer impacts just you and your existing child but the new child as well. 

Life with an alcoholic is difficult. I can't imagine trying to R with one since R is very hard even when no drinking is involved. Waiting until he had his drinking under control and was changing his behavior would have been better. However, now you have to deal with what is and not what you wish had been the case. 

What is your plan?


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

Openminded said:


> What I find sad is that you are trying to R when nothing has changed with him.
> 
> Now you are pregnant and he doesn't want this baby. Even if you do manage to really R at some point he could resent this child and treat him/her differently from your other child. I don't know the solution but this is a very complicated situation and no longer impacts just you and your existing child but the new child as well.
> 
> ...


I don't know what my plan is. He said that me having this child would mean he had to get his sh** together and he doesn't want that right now. He would love the baby, but he doesn't want the added stress. He also has some misconceptions about the development of an embryo at 5 weeks and seems to think it's just a zygote, and abortion at this point is just birth control, but it's not. He made fun of me for having morals about abortion, and frankly, I'd rather keep my sweet babies and ditch the husband. If he wants to come around, he can. I am considering calling family nearby and staying there until I get my degree in a couple of weeks. I'm already enrolled in a graduate program and easily find contract work I do from home @ night. It's not ideal, but it's looking like heaven compared to where I'm at now. Calling me selfish for wanting to keep a baby I thought we were both trying for is ridiculous and shows me his true colors more than ever. We're two people doing awful things to each other and it's just beyond ok.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

rrhouse said:


> He made fun of me for having morals about abortion, and frankly, I'd rather keep my sweet babies and ditch the husband.


Smart girl.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

rrhouse said:


> Even though it's been 4 months since D-Day, I've been repeatedly reopening the wound with my GNO habits. I only quit the drinking exactly 3 weeks ago.





rrhouse said:


> I'm working on my fourth week of no drinking, no outings. Divorce will be a decision he makes, I'm here to help him heal. He will barely speak to me right now.





rrhouse said:


> We haven't been speaking much so I have overflowing thoughts about the situation.





rrhouse said:


> Today I just took up a new job with substantially better pay, based on my anticipated graduation (August 8).





rrhouse said:


> Now he still goes out pretty much whenever he wants and I have been trying to stay home as much as possible. It's only been 3 weeks of me staying home, 4 months post affair.


Look at these posts of yours I quoted above, from about 3 weeks ago.

You barely quit drinking and your girls night outs about 2 months ago, you aren't even 6 months out of your affair, you're barely speaking to one another, you just took on a new job to decrease the stress associated with your finances and of course that job isn't going to happen if you're having a baby..and you see nothing wrong with having unprotected sex with the strong possibility of bringing another child into this disaster of a marriage? 

Your irresponsibility is mindblowing and your husband is no better.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

lenzi said:


> Look at these posts of yours I quoted above, from about 3 weeks ago.
> 
> You barely quit drinking and your girls night outs about 2 months ago, you aren't even 6 months out of your affair, you're barely speaking to one another, you just took on a new job to decrease the stress associated with your finances and of course that job isn't going to happen if you're having a baby..and you see nothing wrong with having unprotected sex with the strong possibility of bringing another child into this disaster of a marriage?
> 
> Your irresponsibility is mindblowing and your husband is no better.



You're right. Who am I kidding. The last girls night out almost 2 months ago ended in me being a drunk idiot and kissing some guy I am absolutely creeped out by. I don't know what's wrong with me. I told myself that if I could get out of that without husband finding out, I could quit drinking and never put my weak-willed, sh**ty self in that situation again, and hopefully my husband never would be hurt by my ridiculous choices. I cut off contact with the weird guy, quit drinking, and set out to work on myself and fix the marriage. Today he asked more details about that night and I couldn't lie anymore and told him everything. He's furious and I feel like a huge piece of sh*t. That's the nail in the coffin. What was I thinking? What's wrong with me? My husband is so upset now that when we divorce, he can't see our first child every day. I ruined any chance of us keeping the family together, and for what? Some idiot who I kissed while drunk. Clearly I have self esteem issues and no self respect, no ability to think about the people affected by my stupidity. I feel so stupid. So, so stupid. I'm at a loss.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

And I can't help but think that we wouldn't be here if he and I BOTH took better responsibility for our part in this huge pile of sh*t that's left of our marriage... we're just two crappy people and I'm the crappiest.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

rrhouse said:


> You're right. Who am I kidding. *The last girls night out almost 2 months ago ended in me being a drunk idiot and kissing some guy I am absolutely creeped out by.* I don't know what's wrong with me. I told myself that if I could get out of that without husband finding out, I could quit drinking and never put my weak-willed, sh**ty self in that situation again, and hopefully my husband never would be hurt by my ridiculous choices. I cut off contact with the weird guy, quit drinking, and set out to work on myself and fix the marriage. *Today he asked more details about that night and I couldn't lie anymore and told him everything.* He's furious and I feel like a huge piece of sh*t. That's the nail in the coffin. What was I thinking? What's wrong with me? My husband is so upset now that when we divorce, he can't see our first child every day. I ruined any chance of us keeping the family together, and for what? Some idiot who I kissed while drunk. Clearly I have self esteem issues and no self respect, no ability to think about the people affected by my stupidity. I feel so stupid. So, so stupid. I'm at a loss.


/sigh

^This is why trickle-truth is just *bad*, *Bad*, *BAD*. It's not at all fair for a WS to request forgiveness from his or her BS w/o providing a complete accounting of any and all behavior that would call for it. _Is there anything else_ that you haven't told him?

It might be a bit late for this commentary, but someone suggested earlier that the two of you separately address what are essentially separate issues within your marriage. Very good advice, IMO, but it may be all the more difficult to do this now.

Out of curiosity, what prompted him to ask for additional details about _that specific evening_?

In any case, I take it that he's pretty much made up his mind w/ respect to divorce now...?


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> /sigh
> 
> ^This is why trickle-truth is just *bad*, *Bad*, *BAD*. It's not at all fair for a WS to request forgiveness from his or her BS w/o providing a complete accounting of any and all behavior that would call for it. _Is there anything else_ that you haven't told him?
> 
> ...


I know. I knew that if he found out, it would be the last straw. I lied to myself thinking that the drunk kiss was in a different category than the affair. I felt that it was insignificant and not worth backtracking our R. So stupid. 

He is so angry and I'm honestly afraid he might hurt this guy or worse, hurt himself. I know he's torn up about divorce, because he never wanted to have his kid in a broken home situation. I ripped his life apart. I'm considering offering to sleep in the spare room for now so the little one won't miss out on family life. I know he's probably disgusted with me (he wouldn't even let me pet his cat...), but I also think he'd appreciate if I didn't take off with our kid. Maybe I can offer up rent for the room...

I just need to work on myself for now. He still doesn't see any need to change his habits. Need to figure out why I use the attention of men I don't even like to fill this unhappy void. 
H asked about that night because he's trying to rule out the chance that this baby isn't his, and I gave him some lame story about where I was that night that didn't check out. I had a girlfriend of mine ready to cover for me but when he asked me again I just couldn't continue with the dishonesty. Every time he asked me about it my heart would pump, I'd get all nauseous, and hands got shaky.. it truly was only a kiss, and I had NO intention of hanging out with that dude to flirt with him. It just happened. This is why I quit drinking, because I have no boundaries when some idiot flirts with me. 

H is dead set on divorce. I can't even argue with him right now. I'm not wife material. He even said I'm a great mom, but wasn't ready to be a wife. Even if he did want to give me another chance, I still have to work on my issues, or this mess will repeat itself. With his issues and mine, we don't stand a chance. I'm looking into psychological reasons behind a woman cheating. That guy I kissed is repulsive to me but I still did it. Why?

I've never been so disappointed or felt disgusting in my entire life. I can't help but think 'Who am I?'


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

You need to get into counseling. It seems like you are on a self-destruct mission. Or is this a mission to destroy your marriage because you don't have the strength to just call it quits?


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> You need to get into counseling. It seems like you are on a self-destruct mission. Or is this a mission to destroy your marriage because you don't have the strength to just call it quits?


Consciously I was doing neither. Subconsciously? I don't know. Maybe just trying to feel valued and desired by others when I'd really just like to feel that way in my own marriage. It's been 2+ years since my husband has shown any kind of affection it said anything kind to me. Not excusing anything! !! Just trying to figure out what motivates I do things like that. Especially when I sobered up and couldn't believe my actions. I do need counseling for sure. As of now I feel so low, and my husband is even worse off. This is rock bottom.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

rrhouse said:


> I know. I knew that if he found out, it would be the last straw. I lied to myself thinking that the drunk kiss was in a different category than the affair. I felt that it was insignificant and not worth backtracking our R. So stupid.
> 
> He is so angry and I'm honestly afraid he might hurt this guy or worse, hurt himself. I know he's torn up about divorce, because he never wanted to have his kid in a broken home situation. I ripped his life apart. I'm considering offering to sleep in the spare room for now so the little one won't miss out on family life. I know he's probably disgusted with me (he wouldn't even let me pet his cat...), but I also think he'd appreciate if I didn't take off with our kid. Maybe I can offer up rent for the room...
> 
> ...


As Elegirl said, you really need to just commit to get some counseling for yourself and your husband needs it also. 

This wasn't the final straw, this marriage has so many other problems take your pick. This biggest issue is neither of you know how to deal with the problems.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

honcho said:


> As Elegirl said, you really need to just commit to get some counseling for yourself and your husband needs it also.
> 
> This wasn't the final straw, this marriage has so many other problems take your pick. This biggest issue is neither of you know how to deal with the problems.


You're right. The whole situation is a huge mess. I feel bad for our child. 

How can two people who claim to love each other be so horrible?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Because love alone doesn't solve problems. 

I'm sure there are divorced people who remain in love with their ex-spouse. But they couldn't make their marriage work. 

Yes, you have messed your life up. As has he. And now you need to fix it -- both of you -- separately. For all of you.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

Openminded said:


> Because love alone doesn't solve problems.
> 
> I'm sure there are divorced people who remain in love with their ex-spouse. But they couldn't make their marriage work.
> 
> Yes, you have messed your life up. As has he. And now you need to fix it -- both of you -- separately. For all of you.


As of now I can't accept divorce because I don't feel that we've done all we can to solve our issues. I was naive by thinking we could R before I figured out the reasoning behind what I did. Maybe I was unhappy and seeking the validation I wanted from within my marriage, from outside sources. Maybe I could see that things weren't working and subconsciously destroyed the marriage. Maybe I was just bored and am not built for monogamy. I will say that when the second cheat- the drunk kiss- happened, I told the guy the next day that I could never speak to him again. I quit drinking. I took the advice of my grandmother that "some secrets are not worth telling" and I lied about it and hoped for the best. I minimized it by thinking I did the right thing by cutting it off. However, the one action I didn't take was to seek counseling to see WHY I cheated again. My husband just sees at as a repeat of OM#1. He said a tongue in the mouth is just as good as a d*** inside the... you know. 

My husband can't conceive of being married to a woman he doesn't think will be faithful, and I can't blame him. I've written him a pretty long letter telling him that this cheating issue is mine and mine alone and never did he deserve any of this. I apologized for trying to blame him. I told him I am a broken person and need to find a way to improve before I can be a wife he deserves. I suggested a possible separation while I get my sh** together, just so our family might stand a chance. I also said that this is me begging for a chance to step back and make changes and if that's too little too late, I wouldn't resent him for it. If he chooses divorce I won't try to take advantage of him. I deserve this. Is it wrong of me to offer to stay in the spare room for now rather than just leave? He was torn up about not seeing our child every night. I figure it would be good for her, if he could stand being around me, if we just keep our distance in the same house. 

Right now we all need to take a step back, be it divorce or separation. This all has me strongly questioning my ability to have another child. He doesn't think it's his and I really don't have a leg to stand on. Although I know for a fact it's his, my word is worth nothing right now. He told me he wants a paternity test and even if it is his, he wouldn't love it like he loves our first child. 

I feel so bad for the way he's feeling right now. He really deserved better. If this is the end, then I have learned a huuuuge lesson.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> I just need to work on myself for now


If* you do not follow through on your wisdom stated above your life will continue to go down*. You should get help to stay on this path as this path is your life line. You need help because you are very weak and even though you know what to do you need help to accomplish your goal of getting better.


Your thoughts and actions should ONLY be for you and your children. There is absolutely no chance that you and your husband are going to make a good life together right now; NONE, NADA, ZILCH! In fact if you fool yourself and think that you and your husband can be involved in a reconciliation right now you will be in worse shape than you are right now.


You and your husband are very damaged people that are very weak. How are either of you going t help each other? Right now you two can only hurt each other.


You have taken a very important step in that you have admitted that you are very weak and need help and need to just work on yourself. That is a huge hurdle. *Now the actions that you take will determine your well being and the direction your life goes will affect your children for either negative or positive*. You do not need more talk you need ACTIONS NOW!


*Do you have a plan?*


*What is your plan?*


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

Mr Blunt said:


> If* you do not follow through on your wisdom stated above your life will continue to go down*. You should get help to stay on this path as this path is your life line. You need help because you are very weak and even though you know what to do you need help to accomplish your goal of getting better.
> 
> 
> Your thoughts and actions should ONLY be for you and your children. There is absolutely no chance that you and your husband are going to make a good life together right now; NONE, NADA, ZILCH! In fact if you fool yourself and think that you and your husband can be involved in a reconciliation right now you will be in worse shape than you are right now.
> ...


Very blunt, true to your name. Haha. 

I have come to a state of zen acceptance right now. H told me today he is going to consult with a divorce lawyer, and he chose one with a name that is literally 1 letter away from that of the guy I kissed. How's that for irony? He's really tickled by it. Such a clever guy.

The letter I wrote him is gone so I'm assuming he read it and has his heart set on me moving out and getting a divorce. 

He told me he's going to go find a good wife that deserves him....that hurt. Anyway, I don't know what my rights are, but I feel like it's his house and I should just take our daughter and go to a parent's house or something until I find a better job. I will get my bachelor's degree in about a week and have already applied to a master's program, so I have the means of getting a decent job right now, thankfully. I'm looking for affordable counseling and also want to go ahead and get an STD test; he deserves that. 

He is now demanding a paternity test and told me he will do nothing for the child except pay child support- if it's his child. (It is.) So I plan on getting that for him whenever I can. That's about it. That's my plan. I also plan to just basque in the joy of not being put down every single god-dang day of my life. For that, I am relieved. No more drama, no more lies. I feel like I detached myself from this marriage a long time ago, and the main part of the emotion I'm feeling is fear for change and fear for our children. I also have to announce to my family that I'm pregnant and getting a divorce. See me on Jerry Springer in 2015... that's embarrassing. I never expected myself to be a cheating divorcee with 2 kids before the age of 30. What a life. 

Sorry if I'm feeling sorry for myself a little bit. haha it's been a crazy ride


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

rrhouse said:


> Very blunt, true to your name. Haha.
> 
> I have come to a state of zen acceptance right now. H told me today he is going to consult with a divorce lawyer, and he chose one with a name that is literally 1 letter away from that of the guy I kissed. How's that for irony? He's really tickled by it. Such a clever guy.
> 
> ...


rrhouse,
The things your are feeling are normal even the acceptance and feeling sorry for yourself; you do not need to apologize.

Your current feelings and even your husband’s current feelings are not a good indication of anything except how you are burning up your emotional energy and how you are coping with a very difficult situation.


Please be aware that it is not uncommon for the trend in the posting found here on TAM to someone in your position is to try and keep the previous problems in your marriage separate from the consequences of your infidelity.

I think there is a general consensus that there is no justification for cheating and to reconcile a marriage, the damage from infidelity must be addressed first since it is a gaping wound with significant blood loss and to do otherwise actually makes it worse. For reasons that can be explained.

Short of an abusive situation it is hoped that some stability and ground rules for reconciliation can be implemented first. This can in itself take a few years, even before reconciliation is decided upon. Usually the wayward spouse is asked (expected?) to find the grace through their remorse to make room for this to be possible.



Toward this end posters will point out where you are trickle truthing or blame shifting or rug sweeping in an attempt to guide you to true remorsefulness. That can seem quite harsh at times.

As mentioned before the problems in your marriage before your infidelity were already sinking your marriage. Currently your husband would be a terrible partner for any decent woman he would meet. You both have a lot of work to do on yourselves.





Unfortunately we only have your ear here and the help we are trying to give you is like trying to teach a drowning person how to swim.

It really would require an expert counselor who understands infidelity, the big picture and can oversee the rebuilding of you relationship as you both work with individual counselors to become a healthy partner to live with.

Now is not the time because he would not be open but it would be a good start if your husband would come here. Should he have a change of heart and he would be more comfortable starting with an anonymous forum perhaps you could tell him this “these people have been hard on me but they do understand what is going on” I know you would both be encouraged to follow-through as described above. But I do not think that it would be well received by him ATM,



Knowing all the reasons you have done what you have will not save your marriage. They will not even be a good argument on why your husband should stay with you, but they are important in helping you become a person who will be good for another partner to be with. 


A partner who is good for another person.

You are not that now, your husband is not that now.



Your lying and subsequent failures will likely have killed any chance of reconciliation you had.

Your husband is already visualizing detaching from his offspring, that is somewhat uncommon.



Is it to obvious a thing to say that people's actions tend to mirror how they feel? 
By that I mean the actions are often not done out of spite or revenge (even though accompanied by anger) but are a window into the wound that has been inflicted in their mind and emotions.

You husband's behaviors mirror that he feels rejected, replaced, humiliated, abandoned, betrayed?



If there is any hope I think it lies in your correctly reading the hurt, projecting the opposite and enduring in genuine remorsefulness without any expectation.

Realize even if you divorce you will be doing something similar to this already unless you go all ugly on him and I just don’t see that in you.

That is all anyone can do, it will still be his call to reconcile or not.



I believe you genuinely want to find a way through this and you would choose to keep and heal your family if possible. 

As has been said it is way too early to know how this will turn out. It is not uncommon for a split to happen and a reconciliation to take place as each person heals some and realizes that there is something worth saving in the relationship.

Btw that is how you should think about it, not the marriage, but the relationship, the current marriage is all but dead, the relationship survives, badly damaged for now. (Btw do not tell him this or try to use it as a reason, it will piss him off. Like "we will still have to have a relationship after divorce", etc, and do not tell him or stop if you have been "I understand if you divorce me, I'll be ok" I have seen that not go over good as well. Affirm him nothing more, dont volunteer.)

Why do people reconcile? To put it briefly people tend to try and save a relationship because the think it is worth it, ok and some stay for the kids, etc.

They believe the accommodations already in place could not be easily replaced with a new person if at all. By that I mean the emotional connection, the sexual compatibility, the companionship factor, likes, taste and other commonalities.
If you have nothing going for you in any categories similar to this it is unlikely to find a common ground for reconciliation other that economic or offspring considerations.


I think you may learn a life lesson here (not the least of which will be to find your happiness in yourself), your husband deserves the same, unfortunately I think he will just stumble into another relationship and continue the same damaging behavior patterns.

It is such a sad story.

I would like to see you both salvage as much as you can from this disaster and provide a decent upbringing for your children, they deserve better as well. 

Take care.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

*Do you have a plan?


What is your plan?*





> *By rrhouse*
> I should just take our daughter and go to a parent's house or something until I find a better job. I will get my bachelor's degree in about a week and have already applied to a master's program, so I have the means of getting a decent job right now, thankfully. I'm looking for affordable counseling and also want to go ahead and get an STD test; he deserves that.
> 
> He is now demanding a paternity test and told me he will do nothing for the child except pay child support- if it's his child. (It is.) So I plan on getting that for him whenever I can. That's about it. That's my plan. I also plan to just basque in the joy of not being put down every single god-dang day of my life. For that, I am relieved. No more drama, no more lies


.



Your plan above will make things better for you. It is obvious that you have a very good plan for your education and future job. As for your most immediate need,* your counseling should help you a lot with your shattered self image*. Getting away from your husband so that you no longer get put down is a must; you already are putting yourself down enough you do not need an alcoholic to add his so called wisdom.


*Here is just a suggestion. Consider changing your lifestyle and your values*. I know you are young but the bars, excitement, party-time and some of the modern way of thinking by the youth of America are detrimental to family life with children. If you want to get on Jerry Springer then keep up with the lifestyle and values that you have had the last several years. You have children and that is by far the priority for you. *Find women with children that have been successes for decades and learn from them then do what they did.* Nothing has as much credibility as some one that has been successful for decades; they have a lot to offer you.




*You are a mother and that means that you have potentially tremendous values for your children.* Even though you have driven your self esteem bus into a ditch you can still get your life back in order and have a good life. You are young and have opportunities that can bring you back up. Put on your big-girl pants and get ready to climb your way out of the hole that you are in. Mature life begins around 30 year of age and peaks in the 40s, 50s, and 60s. You have not even lived half your life so do not let the depression set in; you have a LOT of life left. *You can make it a good life if you are willing to endure the pains and strive forward.*


Take care my dear


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

Decorum said:


> rrhouse,
> The things your are feeling are normal even the acceptance and feeling sorry for yourself; you do not need to apologize.
> 
> Your current feelings and even your husband’s current feelings are not a good indication of anything except how you are burning up your emotional energy and how you are coping with a very difficult situation.
> ...


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

Well, it's definitely over. He asked me today to go to a lawyer with him and cooperate with the divorce. I know I told him it's his choice, but as the reality sets in I am having a really hard time accepting it. 

He took off work today to go visit a lawyer, but ended up sitting on the couch all day. I can't tell if he's just trying to scare me, if he's having second thoughts, or what. He said he'd be less of a man if he gave me yet another chance. 

As far as my offer to stay in the spare room and co-parent goes, he said he doesn't want to help me pay for stuff while I get counseling. He doesn't want to be celibate while I figure out my issues and then still have the possibility that I might betray him again. He is so hurt and angry... For a moment today I thought he might hurt himself or something crazy. His head is in a bad place. 

Part of me feels a little angry that he won't give me another chance, but I know that's absolutely selfish. I sure as heck can't see myself being forgiving if the tables were turned. 

I can't change what has already happened and I can't change his mind. Time to suck it up and move on, I guess. I'm really having second thoughts about my ability to raise another baby. Feeling really lost, sad, scared, regretful.. you name it.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *By rrhouse*
> Well, it's definitely over. He asked me today to go to a lawyer with him and cooperate with the divorce. I know I told him it's his choice, but as the reality sets in I am having a really hard time accepting it.



*You can help yourself by accepting that it is over so that you do not waste time on a sinking ship*. It maybe possible that you two may cancel the divorce when the pressure gets to heavy. However, in your condition and your husband’s condition, that will just waste time and maybe make things worse. One reason that it will waste time is that you may both have a short honeymoon period that will delay you working your plan to get better. In addition, after the honeymoon period fails you will be so weak that you may not have enough emotional energy to work your plan that can get you better. You can try to patch up this marriage for years but the end will be failure. You may have a chance of having a good relationship with your husband someday if you make a clean break and then both of you get a lot stronger.



*Do you really think that with all the damage that you both have done over the last several years, including infidelity and alcoholism, that you two can have a successful marriage at this time?*

You both have a lot of work to do on yourselves and the sooner you accept your divorce and stop spending too much emotional energy on thinking and talking about the pain the sooner you can start building yourself up. You are in a critical period in your emotional health and your abilities to raise your children in a nurturing way. *You need to take ACTIONS now for you and your children and forget about your marriage.* You have a good plan so now CONSENTRATE and take ACTIONS to implement your plan.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

I posted this in my other thread:

Another thing that's baffling me today: last night in the middle of the night I woke up to him touching me sexually. It scared the heck out if me and once I jumped up and asked him what he was doing, he said he needed s*x and just really wanted a release. I laid there confused, probably with my mouth wide open for about five seconds before he stormed off and said, "Nevermind, save it for the next guy." When he drove off I texted him saying wtf was that and he basically said it was a mistake. I told him I'm sorry but I'm confused, last night he yelled at me for divorce and now he wants sex? Of course I wanted to but is it the right thing?*

He responded with something along the lines of "after everything I've done for you, you deny me the simplest thing that I need."*

What the heck??!



And this is why it's so hard for me to let go. I want it to work so, so badly. I think we would both have to do IC, MC, and quit drinking, but that's unrealistic. Despite all the bad, my husband once was a very loving, romantic man and I am still very much in love with that "ghost."


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

rrhouse said:


> And this is why it's so hard for me to let go. I want it to work so, so badly. I think we would both have to do IC, MC, and quit drinking, but that's unrealistic


It's unrealistic to quit drinking. And..you're pregnant. 

This just keeps getting worse.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

lenzi said:


> It's unrealistic to quit drinking. And..you're pregnant.
> 
> This just keeps getting worse.


I quit drinking 2 months ago. I was referring to my husband. Rude.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

Oh, so when you said "we" you really meant "he".

So how is "he" supposed to do MC by himself?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

lenzi said:


> Oh, so when you said "we" you really meant "he".
> 
> *So how is "he" supposed to do MC by himself?*


She's already stated that he won't do IC or MC. He's flatly refused.

It would seem that he prefers to spend his dollars on maintaining a perpetual state of (at least semi-) drunkenness.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

^^ This is true. Today he has been more kind. He wants to work it out for our daughter. He still doesn't want the baby. He said it will be a trigger for him and it just doesn't sit right with him knowing I was kissing some guy weeks before it was conceived. Honestly I can't blame him, but I'm still torn about this decision. Either way it will be a sad situation. I don't know what to do. 

I am still going to focus on getting therapy of some kind and getting all my ducks in a row just in case this R turns ugly, which it has a history of doing for him and I. He is so hurt and we're both exhausted. I'm just ready for us to have some peace.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

rrhouse said:


> He still doesn't want the baby. He said it will be a trigger for him and it just doesn't sit right with him knowing I was kissing some guy weeks before it was conceived. Honestly I can't blame him, but I'm still torn about this decision


He doesn't want the child. You cheated on him weeks before it was conceived, you want to try to save this marriage.

Let him make the decision. 

Doesn't mean the marriage will definitely be saved but it's a big step in the right direction.

Decide soon. Every day that mass of cells becomes that much more recognizable.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

lenzi said:


> He doesn't want the child. You cheated on him weeks before it was conceived, you want to try to save this marriage.
> 
> Let him make the decision.
> 
> ...



Interesting. So he knowingly had unprotected sex with her, but now he gets to decide that she should have an abortion. Sorry, doesn't work like that. Now you might make that argument if this was OM's baby but it's his; he should've considered this before he knocked her up. I'm sure he's hurting but actions still have consequences; he can either grow up and deal with it or file for divorce.

Or maybe he should be allowed to do what he wants with no consequences; he can just have sex freely, knock up whoever, and demand an abortion because he's hurting and not in a good place. If that's how you feel use protection or your hand.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

lenzi said:


> *He doesn't want the child.* You cheated on him weeks before it was conceived, you want to try to save this marriage.
> 
> *Let him make the decision.*
> 
> ...


F*ck *that* noise. OP, tell your husband that you've made your decision, and you're keeping the baby. Then let him make his own decision (i.e. divorce or reconciliation).

Everything that I've read to date would seem to indicate that what he's worried about more than anything else is having another mouth to feed. Well, there's another one on the way, so tell him that, if he doesn't want any more than the two, it's time for him to get snipped.

Yeah, you f*cked up. You cheated. You know this. But OP, I implore you... Do *NOT* let your husband use the threat of divorce and/or your guilt over your affair to dictate this decision to you... and *ESPECIALLY* since he's shown you nothing that would indicate that he's seriously committed to changing this own sh*tty behavior for the sake of your marriage and family.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> Interesting. So he knowingly had unprotected sex with her, but now he gets to decide that she should have an abortion. Sorry, doesn't work like that. Now you might make that argument if this was OM's baby but it's his; he should've considered this before he knocked her up. I'm sure he's hurting but actions still have consequences; he can either grow up and deal with it or file for divorce.
> 
> Or maybe he should be allowed to do what he wants with no consequences; he can just have sex freely, knock up whoever, and demand an abortion because he's hurting and not in a good place. If that's how you feel use protection or your hand.


Yeah, I can't really argue with this either.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

I have come to a decision to get the abortion pill. Not only for my husband, and for the child who would be unwanted by my husband, but also because I can't raise a second child by myself should this marriage not work out. I'd already be sharing a room with my 3 yr old in a tiny 2 bedroom apartment. 

When I showed my husband the difference in price for the pill and the surgical procedure, he got angry about spending an extra $150 on the pill, even though he offered to pay for it. This isn't really an option I wanted to take anyway... I feel that, given the fact that it's MY body, I should have some say in the type of procedure I go through with. (Dare I even mention he spends $150+ weekly on booze and cigarettes?)

My husband feels that I am _so_ selfish for not thinking about how HE might feel about the type of procedure I get and now he has to work extra hard to pay for it (he offered). I don't know, I thought I was being pretty UNselfish to make the decision to go through with it when I really didn't want to in the first place. 

I understand though that he felt deceived not knowing about my second infidelity and probably wouldn't have had unprotected sex with me had he known about that. I felt that it was only fair to go through with it for that reason, although I'd rather not have to. 

We were getting along for a few days and he even said he didn't know if he wanted to go through with it, because if we did work things out and things went well, we could end up pregnant again within a year or so. He also doesn't want to be like his father, who wanted him aborted and also was a rude alcoholic. So he feels that he is losing either way here. 
However, now that that price difference came up, and I'm pressing the issue, he is singing a different tune... If it's going to get done, it needs to get done now, and he has made NO initiative, so I came to him and said I will call tomorrow and make the appointment. 

I'm sorry, I understand that this is a huge personal thing for him. However, it is NOT okay to tell me that I'm selfish for thinking of myself as well in this situation. Not only am I thinking of myself, but this possible child that I know we could both love and take care of, so I feel like complete sh** for planning to abort it. He is lashing out at me for choosing an option that is less invasive on my body and something that gives me a tiny bit of comfort in this awful situation. I just can't even process the nonsense anymore. There's a difference between being hurt and being a total d*ck. HE is being the latter. I can't even deal right now.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I can understand why you cannot deal right now.

Do you really want to try to reconcile with this guy?


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> I can understand why you cannot deal right now.
> 
> Do you really want to try to reconcile with this guy?


The guy that he is being right now? Absolutely not. 

I guess I need to shed this idea of a kind, sweet man that I had in my head. He may have been that man several years ago, and I see glimpses of him from time to time, but for the most part, he is gone. He has been replaced by a pouty, stagnant alcoholic, who would rather cry in his drink every night than do anything about his problems.

For the record, he has been a pouty, stagnant alcoholic for years. My infidelity only aggravated the issue, it didn't create it. I really don't feel comfortable giving up on the marriage until I have turned every stone, but you can't help somebody who doesn't want to be helped. 

Clearly he's not in this to reconcile. It's all about money to him. He doesn't want a divorce because that equals $$ and effort. He doesn't want to spend an extra $150 to end the pregnancy that he doesn't want to spend the $$ to carry out. He has always, always been on me about the money. Even with the affair. What hurt him the most (his words) was that I cheated on him while he was supporting me financially. How could I cheat on such a great husband who pays for so much stuff... that's his big question. 

I have had a telecommute job the entire time I've been a stay at home mom. Despite being up all day raising a child basically on my own, I stay up late at night and try to work as much as I can to help out. It's not like I'm some money grubbing parasite, I'm his wife. Despite having that job, he has always complained to me about how expensive I am. 

I will take all responsibility for the pain I caused from my own actions, but this sh*t attitude has always been a problem and I can't put up with it anymore. I can't be a martyr. If he wants to reconcile, then he has to actually cooperate. He can't just keep me around for the sake of our child, and because divorce is too much work. Clearly what I've done is beyond what he is able to forgive, and he seems to be having trouble coming to that realization. Either that or he just doesn't want to do the work to end the marriage.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

rrhouse said:


> My husband feels that I am _so_ selfish for not thinking about how HE might feel about the type of procedure I get and now he has to work extra hard to pay for it (he offered). I don't know, I thought I was being pretty UNselfish to make the decision to go through with it when I really didn't want to in the first place.


You can't win.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

He obviously hasn't changed. If you plan to R in the future, make sure you see real change (permanent, not temporary) before having unprotected sex with him again. 

You don't want to have to do this again at some point. Because in reality it's not "we" who gets pregnant -- it's you.


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## toonaive (Dec 13, 2012)

I tried R with my WW for more than 6 years. Her cheating forever changed the way I saw her, felt about her. It changed me. In the end, R was taking more from me than her. I knew then, my marriage was truly over. I filed. If R is taking you both down, it isnt working.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

No, I can't win. Nothing is good enough because he is beyond the ability to attempt to forgive. It's not in his nature. It turns out I am too far along (7 weeks) to get the pill, so I am now in the mindset that I can't go through with a surgical procedure. I have been back and forth too many times and at this point I am only doing it to save our marriage- which is clearly dead. Therefore I'm not doing it. He has threatened to expose everything to all of his friends and family, as if I would be embarrassed. I think he'll be surprised at the reaction people will have to him trying to manipulate me into abortion, if he chooses to share that part of the story. He keeps saying, "You keep forgetting the fact that I'M losing my child because of you, and I have to pay for it!" Uh, no a**hole, you're losing your child because of you, and you offered to pay for it. 

I fell asleep on the couch for 15 minutes or so today and woke up to him digging through my phone looking for more evidence of things I've done to betray him. He went on to talk about how I'm an adulteress sl*t in - front of our child- and stormed off to the bar. I'm tired of exposing our daughter to this. I'm tired of him just repeating the facts I already know and mulling in a drunken stupor every night because of it. I get it, I did some really sl*tty stuff. Here I am trying to FIX it. I'm the only one actually doing anything about it. One day he says he wants to go to rehab, and the next he's pissed off because he's going to have to change his lifestyle because of me. "I just want to drink beer and watch TV d*mnit!" (That's me summarizing for him)

He still doesn't buy that the 2nd guy was just a drunk kiss and completely different than the 1st. Sure, the whole situation is pretty embarrassing and Jerry Springer, but I'd rather keep my child and get out of this toxic relationship, and let him expose the fact that he's not the "perfect" husband victim all his friends and family think he is. 

At least I own up to my mistakes. We're both victims here, from what I see. I definitely crossed the lines of the vows of marriage. I'm open to admit that and do the work to make it better. It takes two though.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Sweetheart, file for divorce now. Let the next poor woman have this nasty drunken pr!ck. Yeah you did some sh!tty things but this guy has shown you who he is.....there are lots of guys here who've been betrayed in horrible ways and would never behave like this jerk. Do what he's too much of a coward to do: end the misery for both of you. No matter what you do he's going to abuse you, so get rid of him and keep your baby. He can go drink himself to death and find some dumb sl!t willing to put out for him. He'll treat her like sh!t too because that's who he is right now. If he ever stops drinking and you're both interested you two can re-evaluate things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

His bad choices are his responsibility. 

You're just a convenient excuse, nothing more.

Too bad about the pill. 

Hate to see a child brought into the middle of this.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

Here we go again. Today when he got home from his bar activities, I told him I don't think I can do the surgical abortion. He goes on for about an hour about everything I've done wrong in this marriage (3 years worth of complaining), not even relevant to the infidelity or pregnancy. .. then he said last week's make-up, which I thought was probably hysterical bonding, was actually him just playing nice to get some sex. Because if the other guy could do it, he can too! 

Also, this weekend I celebrated my college graduation. he moped in the corner and today told me that over the last few days his main goal was to get the child aborted and divorce me. 

This whole time I thought we were moving forward. I'm so done with this nasty behavior. He told me I deserve to get the abortion done alone to handle MY mistake, and this should be my payback for everything I did to him. He is seriously attempting to force me to give up our child as some sick revenge. He even told me to "stop being so f**king christian about it!" I'm not even religious, I just don't believe in abortion that's not a necessity. 

None of his friends or family know I'm pregnant and that he's forcing the abortion. In fact, his family knows nothing of the affair. I'm considering telling his closest friend and his family the entire story and just calling my family (none of them even know I'm pregnant but I was honest about the entire affair to them) and asking for help. I'm so hurt. 

Do i really deserve all of this for what I've done? This is torture. He called me a wh*re in front of our child several times, even after I asked him to stop. Said I was using her as an excuse not to hear the truth about myself. I am so done with this. So done.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

*



I am so done with this. So done.

Click to expand...

**STOP TALKING and TAKE ACTIONS* that will start you on the road to rebuilding yourself back up so that you can care for your children.

if your guilt keeps you holding on to your husband, that degrades you and runs you down, then you will become a door mat and will not be able to do much for your children.

If you stay with your husband you will wind up feeling competely worthless and not able to even help yourself.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Kick him to the curb.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

Should I tell his family everything that's been going on? His family is most likely very pro-life, and despite being mad at me for the affair, they might talk to him about it.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Maybe on your way "out the door".


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## GROUNDPOUNDER (Mar 8, 2013)

I'm not saying you should, or shouldn't do it.

You'd outlined some reasons of why you were going to end the pregnancy.

Now you've changed your mind(though I get the feeling that you were never completely on board with ending it).

This decision should be made 100% buy you and for you.

This has to be about the worse decision in the world for anyone to have to ponder.

I feel like you already know that you can't end it. Be it the effects of the hormones, or because you are already a Mom, you won't end this willingly.

You are the one that's going to have to live with this choice. Not your Husband/stbxh, your family, his family. It's you.

What ever you choose.

Your thread is the kind that I think every person that's thinking of becoming unfaithful should have to read first.

Not just to see how a WS may be talked to, or treated after Dday. But how they may be forced to make choices that they never had imagined they would need to make.

I rarely find myself feeling sorry for the WS's that have posted here. I do feel sorry for you though. I hope that things will start to get better for you soon.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

Mr Blunt said:


> *STOP TALKING and TAKE ACTIONS* that will start you on the road to rebuilding yourself back up so that you can care for your children.
> 
> if your guilt keeps you holding on to your husband, that degrades you and runs you down, then you will become a door mat and will not be able to do much for your children.
> 
> If you stay with your husband you will wind up feeling competely worthless and not able to even help yourself.


I feel like I'm already there. Today has been especially hard, and I don't know how my husband feels at all. I don't know if he's just saying hurtful things to bring me to his level, or if he seriously was just trying to play me to get me to be intimate with him again and do the abortion so he can divorce me. I feel like an idiot. When he said, "all I did was compliment you like the other guys did and you just opened right up", I broke down. Here I was thinking about how _lucky_ I am that my husband would be understanding about the second incident and give me another chance. I feel manipulated and heartbroken. 

I guess that's how he feels too, and if he's trying to bring me to his level, it's working. Unfortunately my mom's house is out of the question, but I guess I'll have to contact my dad today to see if I can stay with him while I figure things out. I'm not excited about it; he's actually my step-dad and has been busy with his own life lately. Just really feeling trapped and like I have no choices and nowhere to go.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> I'm not saying you should, or shouldn't do it.
> 
> You'd outlined some reasons of why you were going to end the pregnancy.
> 
> ...


That means a lot. Not that you feel sorry for me, but because my story might help someone else who feels confused. I wish I could take back what I did, but I can't. Having an affair is a lazy way to deal with a problem, and the outcome is FAR from easy to deal with. 

Thank you for your kind words. I didn't mention before, because I didn't want to share publicly on my thread, but I had an abortion when I was very young. At the time I felt that it was a necessity because I couldn't even take care of or afford to feed myself, and there's no way I could carry out the pregnancy and do adoption with my job at the time. The choice was mine, and I thought I was okay with it, but I wasn't. I think about it all the time, especially now that I'm a mother. I look at my child and think about the one I could have had 7ish years ago. It's a horrible decision that no one should have to make, and it's an even worse experience. 

The icing on the cake is that he wants me to go the the exact same clinic and doctor. I can't do it again. It was a horrifying experience. The pill at home might have been a little less awful, but I can't do the surgery.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

OK here' my tuppence worth:

You did something wrong and there is no doubt about it - at the start you started to justify it but very quickly learned from the veterans here not to do that and to own it and I believe you have.

Now, your husband, based on what you have said, seems to be a ginormous a$$hole. He is badly behaved and has issues - but most importantly he does seem to be devoid of basic humanity.

The important thing is NOT TO ABORT YOUR BABY IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO - YOU WILL REGRET IT LATER AND IT WILL CAUSE YOU PAIN IN THE FUTURE EVERY TIME YOU REMEMBER IT. Do not let any a$$hole talk you into doing it. This is, of course, only if you do not want to do it - the choice should be yours and yours alone. If finance is the problem, there are other solutions like asking parents for help until you are on your feet and even giving it up for adoption in extreme cases.

As for your husband he needs a different type of help. If you are doing everything you can to help him feel better then thats great - but he has to also get help himself for his other problems. Else, the only thing you can do is to drop him and do it soon. It may shock him into realising that he needs to wake up and smell the roses.

Take care and good luck!


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I think this thread also demonstrates that a nasty pr!ck is a nasty pr!ck regardless of the addition of an affair. The affair just becomes an excuse to get nastier and feel completely justified in doing so. If you're married to a nasty pr!ck (or b!tch as the case may be) file for divorce. Look what having an affair could get you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> Originally Posted by Mr Blunt
> 
> STOP TALKING and TAKE ACTIONS that will start you on the road to rebuilding yourself back up so that you can care for your children.
> 
> ...


*Go live with your dad and NO CONTACT with your husband! Get busy building YOURSELF up and FORCE yourself to stop thinking about your husband and what you did wrong. Your emotional life depends on you taking the right ACTIONS NOW!*


Your community has resourses and it is your job to use them; no excuses. Do you have a faith? If you do then go to that church/temple etc and get help there; that is FREE. Find an older woman that has been through some of what you have and is now having a good life; let her be your mentor. I know that some of these may not be something that you will say again “I'm not excited about it” but you are not in a situation where excitement matters. What matters is you taking action to get better?

*I know that you are run down so get someone to help you, family, friend, church/temple member, 12-step programs, etc.* Keep posting here if it helps you but we will not be enough to get you permanently better that is up to you.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER (Mar 8, 2013)

rrhouse said:


> That means a lot. Not that you feel sorry for me, but because my story might help someone else who feels confused. I wish I could take back what I did, but I can't. Having an affair is a lazy way to deal with a problem, and the outcome is FAR from easy to deal with.
> 
> Thank you for your kind words. *I didn't mention before, because I didn't want to share publicly on my thread, but I had an abortion when I was very young. At the time I felt that it was a necessity because I couldn't even take care of or afford to feed myself, and there's no way I could carry out the pregnancy and do adoption with my job at the time. The choice was mine, and I thought I was okay with it, but I wasn't. I think about it all the time, especially now that I'm a mother. I look at my child and think about the one I could have had 7ish years ago. It's a horrible decision that no one should have to make, and it's an even worse experience. *
> The icing on the cake is that he wants me to go the the exact same clinic and doctor. I can't do it again. It was a horrifying experience. The pill at home might have been a little less awful, but I can't do the surgery.


I didn't realize that you already had to deal with the pain of "choice".

I can't imagine. It's brings a tear if I even try.

My Daughter has had two early term miscarriages and it effected her deeply. She is almost 6 months along right now and though I've tried not to think about my future GrandDaughter(1st Grandchild) too often(as a form of emotional defence) - If something bad should happen and I never get to meet her, I think I'm going to be a wreck.

My heart goes out to.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> I think this thread also demonstrates that a nasty pr!ck is a nasty pr!ck regardless of the addition of an affair. The affair just becomes an excuse to get nastier and feel completely justified in doing so. If you're married to a nasty pr!ck (or b!tch as the case may be) file for divorce. Look what having an affair could get you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're absolutely right. Today he approached me again a out making an appointment and I told him we've discussed everything there is to discuss. He started up with the names and the yelling and I asked him to just leave me alone. Of he can't talk to me like I'm another human being, then he can just go away. His rebuttal was that I'm a piece of trash and I deserve to be scolded. 

That's his excuse now, but what was the excuse before I ever betrayed him? It's just silly. I am stuck here taking the blows out of guilt for the mistakes I've made, because part of me knows I deserve it. The other part of me feels like I've been paying for it for years, even though the A was only 6 months ago.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> I didn't realize that you already had to deal with the pain of "choice".
> 
> I can't imagine. It's brings a tear if I even try.
> 
> ...



Thank you. It's a horrible experience for anyone to go through, by choice or not. I am so sorry for your daughter's past issues. This is one of the biggest reasons I feel so guilty about even considering abortion in the first place. People who would love to have children lose them naturally, and there I was getting rid of mine. 

If I'm not mistaken, 6 months is about the time a baby could live outside the womb, god forbid if something would happen. With each week you're closer to seeing that grandbaby.  Best wishes to you all. I can understand your hesitation to get too invested emotionally just yet.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

Today we argued yet again and H believes I got pregnant last month when I kissed that a-hole. He thinks I did more, and that the fertilized egg just sat in my uterus, not growing or anything, and a positive test came up a month later. Even though I definitely didn't miss my cycle and took a pregnancy test in June (because H and i were not using protection) and it came up negative. So I guess somehow my body defied the laws of reproductive science and he's "taking that to court". 

He also believes I purposely got pregnant as a trap so I could get away with my "lengthy" second affair he believes I had. I've been charting my cycle for about a year and we've been strategically not using protection. This month my cycle was off and boom, I got pregnant. It wasn't on purpose, and it wasn't accidental. Either way, this just tells me his imagination is going crazy and my word is basically worthless to him right now. I need to just separate myself from the situation and let him sort it out, because there's nothing I can do to help him at this point. 

He threatened again to "expose me" to all of his friends and family and tell them all how I have a fatherless child inside me, and how I manipulated him into impregnating me so I could get a free ride. I told him to go ahead and tell people, so maybe he can get some opinions from rational people. 

All of these things he's saying are so ridiculous that I can't help but feel really awful that my actions drove a man borderline crazy. He is so angry, I understand, but the threats and constant bullying really aren't cool. He asked me to book an appointment with the clinic and he'll just drop me off at the door, so I can get the procedure done alone and think about what I did. Time Out at the abortion clinic.... I'll pass, thank you. I realize that he wouldn't have been so careless about using protection had he known about the kiss, but I can't undo that mistake. The baby is here and growing and don't feel like getting rid of it is going to help. He's going to divorce me either way, he said it himself today. I could really go on forever about this. Sorry.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

rrhouse said:


> Today we argued yet again and *H believes I got pregnant last month when I kissed that a-hole.* He thinks I did more, and that the fertilized egg just sat in my uterus, not growing or anything, and a positive test came up a month later. Even though I definitely didn't miss my cycle and took a pregnancy test in June (because H and i were not using protection) and it came up negative. So I guess somehow my body defied the laws of reproductive science and he's "taking that to court".
> 
> He also believes I purposely got pregnant as a trap so I could get away with my "lengthy" second affair he believes I had. I've been charting my cycle for about a year and we've been strategically not using protection. This month my cycle was off and boom, I got pregnant. It wasn't on purpose, and it wasn't accidental. Either way, this just tells me his imagination is going crazy and my word is basically worthless to him right now. I need to just separate myself from the situation and let him sort it out, because there's nothing I can do to help him at this point.
> 
> ...


Sooo... It was just last month that you kissed this other guy? I must have missed that. For some reason I thought it was months ago, while you were still going out on GNOs, etc.

He may very well actually believe that you engaged in a second full-on PA, and that you're simply lying about it having been "just a kiss", the timeline involved, etc.

And here's what you should understand at this point... If he were to come here and tell his side of things in his own thread, he'd likely be met by a chorus of "She totally f*cked the second OM!", "She's carrying OM's baby!", "She's lying about the timeline to conceal the truth!", "DNA your daughter!", etc.

To be clear, you're how far along now? Seven weeks, right?


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> Sooo... It was just last month that you kissed this other guy? I must have missed that. For some reason I thought it was months ago, while you were still going out on GNOs, etc.
> 
> He may very well actually believe that you engaged in a second full-on PA, and that you're simply lying about it having been "just a kiss", the timeline involved, etc.
> 
> You're how far along now... seven weeks, right?


Early June, it was the last time I drank. After it happened I quit drinking, cut contact with the guy, and tried to put that experience away, hoping that it would just disappear. I really didn't want that to be what ended our marriage. I know it was wrong of me not to let my H decide if that was the deal-breaker, but I was being selfish. In my head at the time, it wasn't a huge deal because it was just a drunk kiss, and not a planned out, full on affair. 

He does think I did more and had a full on PA and even "courted" the guy for months, even though I truly didn't. My word, as I said, is worth nothing right now. I even sent the guy a message, in front of my husband, saying you should just tell my husband the truth about what happened, he already knows. The guy ended up blocking both my husband and I on FB and now it looks like I did more and I have NO way to prove that I didn't. I barely even spoke to the guy before this kiss, except to be polite and carry on small talk. In fact, most of our conversations were about how H and I were doing better and working on our R. I don't really know why I kissed him, as I was never attracted to him at all. 

Date of conception is first week of July- H and I were out of town, and yes I am 7 wks. along. Going to schedule my first doctor visit tomorrow so I can at least prove date of conception, even though he already said there's no evidence in a doctor's opinion or an ultrasound. 

I'm not gaslighting when I say this, but H keeps getting all the dates and the timelines mixed up. Every time I try to tell him the same story, he forgets parts of it and accuses me of lying, when I'm just repeating the honest story I told him weeks before. He'll say things like, "Oh, that's a new part of the story!" No. No it's not. He thinks I kissed the guy a week before I got pregnant, which is absolutely not true. Then he backtracks and says I got pregnant a month ago and it just "didn't show up", which is impossible. He's also trying to deny that he tried to force the abortion before he even knew about the kiss, which is untrue. He was already threatening divorce before he even knew about it, and now he is trying to tell me that he was "excited" about the pregnancy, but now the kiss is a dealbreaker. It's just frustrating. His head is all over the place. 

I have no credibility right now, and it doesn't really help the situation. I understand all of his reasoning behind his behavior, but for his own health he needs to get some professional help, or he's going to dead-end. I feel like we're both in the wrong, though I am wayyyyyy worse than him in terms of violating the vows of marriage.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> Sooo... It was just last month that you kissed this other guy? I must have missed that. For some reason I thought it was months ago, while you were still going out on GNOs, etc.
> 
> He may very well actually believe that you engaged in a second full-on PA, and that you're simply lying about it having been "just a kiss", the timeline involved, etc.
> 
> ...



I forgot it was August already, so add a month or so to that "last month" quote. My mistake. Time is flying these days. And I've read many stories on TAM similar to mine, but from the betrayed husband's POV, and I understand people tend to take sides. I also know how fishy my story sounds, especially when the first infidelity started as "just a kiss". My word is worthless right now. I know. But I also know the truth, in my heart. Right now I'm like the boy who called wolf. :/

As for our daughter- there really is NO question there. They're like twins.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

You clearly need to get away from him. The emotional abuse he is putting on you just cant be tolerated. There are organizations that will help you. 

He is never going to change and you know that.


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## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

I haven't been on TAM in quite a while and figured I'd come back and update for anyone who cares or is interested. I'm coming up on my second trimester and my husband and I are still trying to work things out. The hostility has subsided, but my husband is deeply depressed and sulks around most of the time. He encountered a health scare and has been diagnosed with a condition he will have to manage for the rest of his life. This year has been very hard on him. 

Sometimes he takes this anger out on me and lashes out at the smallest thing. It's really frustrating and it's easy for me to snap back, but usually I can get him to talk it out and get to the real issue. Usually he's been mulling over a huge problem, and ends up projecting that anger on the most ridiculous little argument. 

He doesn't want me to tell anyone about the pregnancy until he's ready to deal with it, which is starting to become an issue. I can't even discuss it with him without being met with a silent treatment for however long he feels necessary. At this point in starting to show, and (probably hormonal) am freaking out without any support of friends and family. I've seen the doctor once, and H is already asking if I really "need" to go again, complaining about the doctor, the cost, the schedules, the necessary multiple appointments. You name it, he hates it. I can't pull off the "I'm just gaining some pooch" excuse much longer and could use some friends to support me where my husband is completely opting out. 

I guess I'll wrap this update up with pointing out the obvious: the decision I made to have an affair was the absolute worst decision I've ever made in my entire life. It didn't solve anything, it wasn't fun. Mine and my family's life is shaken from this. I've lost friends and even the approval of my own stepfather who basically raised me. My husband hates everything and everyone and it's my fault. I'm not feeling sorry for myself, but rather sharing my experience with anyone who needs an opinion or might be considering an affair as a distraction from a sh**ty marriage. In hindsight I could have just left for a week and snapped him back into shape. Now I have no dignity and he will never appreciate or love me the way I felt I deserved before betraying him, and vice versa. In short: it sucks. 

On the bright side I am looking forward to hopefully someday earning back some level of respect and trust, and trying to enjoy life as it is. There are positive aspects to everything. My little ones are growing and amazing; there's always joy in that.


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