# Moral Dilemma, need help!



## Sillyputty

This could have went to the religion/spirituality category but it really comes down to family/parenting in my view. My wife of 16 years is devout cradle catholic, her, I and 3 kids (14, 12 and 9) have been practicing catholic the whole time. I was a born again protestant but converted to RC for marriage so essentially is was a conversion in name only since you really can't change your deeply-held core beliefs... my main concern at the time was to attend a church that preached the gospel and the parish we belong to basically does that. Now here's the rub... my wife has taken RC beliefs and practice to the extreme. She drags the kids to any and all things catholic and will forsake any possible thing that might interfere--including me and our marriage as she has stated in no uncertain terms. I have no problem with putting God "first" but if you know devout Roman Catholics God, church, sacraments, doctrine etc., they are all intertwined and to deny it is basically a "mortal sin." I am not making this up folks, some of you know this first hand. So... after years and years of sacrificing my values and beliefs I have started to assert my own views of faith to her and the kids and, of course, I must be the anti-christ for speaking out against the holy roman church. Anyone familiar with World Youth Day? It's where several hundred thousand (literally) catholic teens journey to, usually a foreign land, at OUR expense to fellowship and have mass with the pope-the grand finally. My son will be 16 when this occurs in 2 years--2016 in Krakaw, Poland. Given the circumstances I have described, would you allow your 16 y/o son (or daughter) to attend this? My concerns are threefold: 1) his safety 2) the huge expense (est $4,000) and 3) further indoctrination that I fear does more harm than good. My wife supports this, naturally since it is associated with the RC church, but has graciously left the final decision up to me... I appreciate her deference but a "no" answer clearly makes me the bad guy given that her whole family (devout RC) and the church community all support him going. This is hard for me as I'm generally a giver and pleaser but I'm extremely tired of sacrificing my values, beliefs and resources for a cause I struggle to support... sorry for the rant, would very much appreciate some honest feedback on this "moral dilemma."


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## Hicks

I don't think your problem is religion.
It's a wife that puts something ahead of her marriage and family.
It's certainly not a teaching of the church to do this. There is much scripture about the role of a wife and a husband in a marriage. This is an issue of your wife lacking something in her life and the choices she makes to fill that void. You could be talking about tennis instead of church. So your job is to fill the voids.

Regarding sending your child to Poland, is there a formal group from the church with chaperones etc? If not, no way no how the kid is going. Even if so, if it's too expensive or deemed to risky by you the father of this child, what you do is tell her no, he can't go.

Asserting yourself as the leader of the family is something everyone needs and wants you to do.


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## PBear

Would your son be going by himself, or with a group?

Personally, I think your issues are much bigger than this one trip. But if this is the hill you want to make your stand on, knock yourself out, I guess. It does seem that you're the one doing the bait and switch in this case, though, since you "pretended" to convert and accept her religion when in fact you didn't. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sillyputty

Hicks said:


> I don't think your problem is religion.
> It's a wife that puts something ahead of her marriage and family.
> It's certainly not a teaching of the church to do this. There is much scripture about the role of a wife and a husband in a marriage. This is an issue of your wife lacking something in her life and the choices she makes to fill that void. You could be talking about tennis instead of church. So your job is to fill the voids.
> 
> Regarding sending your child to Poland, is there a formal group from the church with chaperones etc? If not, no way no how the kid is going. Even if so, if it's too expensive or deemed to risky by you the father of this child, what you do is tell her no, he can't go.
> 
> Asserting yourself as the leader of the family is something everyone needs and wants you to do.


Yes there are many chaperones and is fairly structured, my son is also responsible for his age... I'm not sure you grasp RC indoctrination, however, this is a very complex and deeply rooted issue. She is highly protective and would not allow oversees of travel for ANY other reason, except that it is affiliated with the RC church. SHe admitted that straight up.


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## Sillyputty

PBear said:


> Would your son be going by himself, or with a group?
> 
> Personally, I think your issues are much bigger than this one trip. But if this is the hill you want to make your stand on, knock yourself out, I guess. It does seem that you're the one doing the bait and switch in this case, though, since you "pretended" to convert and accept her religion when in fact you didn't.
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You are absolutely correct, we have much bigger issues, most of which involve the faith vs "church" teaching. I admit to the bait and switch, to some degree, however, the priest who married us clearly explained that the church is a big tent and made me comfortable with most of the rules and doctrines... the problem is that my wife is infinitely more conservative than most of the priests, even after being counseled by priests on more than one occasions.


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## PBear

Ok... In my little peanut brain then, you don't have much of a leg to stand on with regards to safety, since he's going with a hopefully properly chaperoned group, and incidents can happen no matter where you are. As far as the indoctrination goes, that's happening worse in your own house, it seems. So that just leaves the cost. And whether your son would actually want to go. You could offer him the choice of the trip or a car... 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sillyputty

PBear said:


> Ok... In my little peanut brain then, you don't have much of a leg to stand on with regards to safety, since he's going with a hopefully properly chaperoned group, and incidents can happen no matter where you are. As far as the indoctrination goes, that's happening worse in your own house, it seems. So that just leaves the cost. And whether your son would actually want to go. You could offer him the choice of the trip or a car...
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Funny you should say that (trip or a car), I was thinking the very same thing since he is already talking about driver's ed and such... it might make me more diabolic seen as tempting a child with material thing over spiritual (although WYD is hardly spiritual IMHO).


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## PBear

Sillyputty said:


> Funny you should say that (trip or a car), I was thinking the very same thing since he is already talking about driver's ed and such... it might make me more diabolic seen as tempting a child with material thing over spiritual (although WYD is hardly spiritual IMHO).


Get a bobble-head pope doll for the dash, and it's all good...

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PBear

Btw... It will probably fall under "ideal but unrealistic"... But ideally, you and your wife would have a discussion separate from your son and come up with a unified front when it comes to things like this. I know that I'd be severely miffed if my wife sold my son on a trip prior to talking to me about it, or if she "bribed" him out of something without talking to me first... It's undermining the whole parental relationship, and hugely unhealthy. As well as causing large amounts of resentment between the parents. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Theseus

Sillyputty said:


> I have no problem with putting God "first" but if you know devout Roman Catholics God, church, sacraments, doctrine etc., they are all intertwined and to deny it is basically a "mortal sin." I am not making this up folks, some of you know this first hand.


Things must be really different where you live. I am Roman Catholic, and I've been to many different kinds of Churches and the Catholic Church imposes on your life far less than any other I've ever seen. Masses are only 1 hour long as opposed to 2-3 hours, and far less activities centered around the Parish. 

But anyway, I don't see what the safety problem would be with this trip. Russia is threatening Ukraine, not Poland. Poland is a perfectly safe country, the trip is chaperoned, your son is 16, not a baby anymore, and he should be preparing to live on his own soon enough anyway. 

I don't know what your finances are like, but if you can afford it, why not? But I don't think this trip is important enough that you should make any major financial sacrifices for it. It's not something he can put on a resume (unless he decides to become a priest), and it's certainly not more important than college.


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## soccermom2three

I agree with everything Thesus posted, especially the first paragraph. 

I would recommend calling the priest in your parish and set up a meeting to discuss your concerns. Most priests are marriage friendly and while they like involvement in the Church, that doesn't mean they want it to be detrimental to a marriage. He also might suggest that you both come in together for counseling.


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## bilbo99

I grew up RC. When I began thinking for myself I realized a big reason for all of the doctrine was to keep people coming to church on Sundays and holy days. Why? To fill the collection baskets of course. 

I'd come up with alternatives. Educational trips, etc.


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## Happyfamily

That's a full year of full time college tuition in our state. 

$4K doubles in ten years at 8%. I think I could pull that off. 

What are the alternative uses of the money?


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## EleGirl

I lived in Europe and traveled with friends my own age when I was 16. I see no problem with your son traveling there since it's a supervised trip.

I agree with others who have said that this sort of devotion that you say your wife has is beyond what most Catholics do... I too was raised Catholic. Your wife is seeking this out. If she chose not to be so involved no one (except maybe a few other women just like her) would be give her a hard time about spending less time with the Church.

You did pull a bit of a bait and switch on her. This is why mixed faith marriages often have a hard time. After a while, the one with the pretend conversion cannot keep it up.

I don't think that a trip like this will hurt your son at all. It's a great experience in a protected environment.

I think that your focus should be on whether or not your family budget can handle the expense.

You have some problems much bigger than this trip. Your wife is not in your marriage. She's found something else that filler her needs.

Now I don't know what your marriage has been like for all these years. But I'll bet that the two of you sort of grew apart a long time ago.. thus opening up a hole that she filled with the Church.

There are things you can do to fix the marriage. That's were I'd put my effort were I you.


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## catfan

I'm from the Netherlands and visited Poland, Warsaw, this year. All was perfectly safe there, I really think that part is nothing to worry about. And stuff is really cheap there, so besides the flight I don't see why it should be that expensive? Eating out, public transportation and souvenirs really don't cost a thing. Hotels and eating in them are more expensive. Eating at a bar mleczny is amazingly cheaper than normal restaurants and so good in quality, and really tasty


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## Satya

*Re: Re: Moral Dilemma, need help!*



Sillyputty said:


> I was a born again protestant but converted to RC for marriage so essentially is was a conversion in name only since you really can't change your deeply-held core beliefs...


This has come back to bite you a bit. Religious denomination aside, your core beliefs and value system are two of the most important things you should be clear on with anyone you date with a view to be in it for the long haul. It's not the most obvious thing we think of while we're crazy in love but I'd be rubbed the wrong way if I knew my SO had a religious or moral view I just couldn't appreciate (or overlook). 

It seems like your best of intentions to convert didn't address the real purpose of why you would do so. Your wife needed to know what you truly believed and how devout you were. You needed to know the extent of her involvement (fanaticism perhaps, if that's how you view it). You both did not communicate clearly and strongly about each expected, and now you are unhappy. 

Your wife needs to know the truth, so it's good to hear you are trying to express it. You need to not do it in a way that embarrasses her or makes her think she married an alien. Bait and switch does this. It will raise her shields and you'll be frustrated. 

I doubt you can change her beliefs if she is as devout as you say. But if there are any references to honesty, duty, compassion, and forgiveness in her practices, I'd start studying this to incorporate into your talk. 

My last thought... Her religious devotion might be filling a void in her life (I've seen this happen often). Did she suffer loss recently? Do you still date? Do you spend 15 hours together (without kids interfering) per week?


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## turnera

The trip is a non-issue. The real question here is, how are you finally stepping up and weaning your kids off of your wife's religious compulsion? What are you doing specifically to change the dynamics. 

And have you read No More Mr Nice Guy?


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## Hicks

Sillyputty said:


> the problem is that my wife is infinitely more conservative than most of the priests, even after being counseled by priests on more than one occasions.


Right, so this is not a religious issue, a church issue, or an indoctrination issue. It's a wife issue.


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## Sillyputty

Satya said:


> This has come back to bite you a bit. Religious denomination aside, your core beliefs and value system are two of the most important things you should be clear on with anyone you date with a view to be in it for the long haul. It's not the most obvious thing we think of while we're crazy in love but I'd be rubbed the wrong way if I knew my SO had a religious or moral view I just couldn't appreciate (or overlook).
> 
> It seems like your best of intentions to convert didn't address the real purpose of why you would do so. Your wife needed to know what you truly believed and how devout you were. You needed to know the extent of her involvement (fanaticism perhaps, if that's how you view it). You both did not communicate clearly and strongly about each expected, and now you are unhappy.
> 
> Your wife needs to know the truth, so it's good to hear you are trying to express it. You need to not do it in a way that embarrasses her or makes her think she married an alien. Bait and switch does this. It will raise her shields and you'll be frustrated.
> 
> I doubt you can change her beliefs if she is as devout as you say. But if there are any references to honesty, duty, compassion, and forgiveness in her practices, I'd start studying this to incorporate into your talk.
> 
> My last thought... Her religious devotion might be filling a void in her life (I've seen this happen often). Did she suffer loss recently? Do you still date? Do you spend 15 hours together (without kids interfering) per week?


As the OP let me speak to the bait and switch, again. I don't deny it now, nor did I then. Many couples where one is RC and the other is protestant, non-denom or not practicing any faith do in fact get married in the catholic church (after the required counseling). Given that my wife was devout RC, I consented to this, went thru RCIA and marriage counseling but I was honest with her the WHOLE time. Rather than grow together, we have grown further apart--her more religion and doctrine, me more spiritual but less religion. I simply don't buy into the RC being the ONE TRUE FAITH, apostolic succession, etc., etc., etc. She doesn't have much of a problem with me "backing off," however I'm the one who recognizes that we as a family are putting too much emphasis on church/rules/doctrine, like we are doing all the things that "good" catholics do but there is no meaning behind it. That's how I feel about the WYD as well, do I really want to devote precious energy and resources to support that cause? I am leaning heavily no, but this could be the start of further unraveling down the road, we shall see. Thanks for your thoughtful reply.


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## 6301

I would be the last person to tread on someone's religious beliefs and I'm still not but maybe it's just me but your wife seems to be way on the extreme side of religion. 

Being a catholic myself but not a very good one, if you don't mind me asking, being that your wife is all about catholic and the teachings of the church, does she use any birth control? I know it sounds dumb but I'm just wondering how catholic she really is.


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## Sillyputty

Hicks said:


> Right, so this is not a religious issue, a church issue, or an indoctrination issue. It's a wife issue.


I will partially disagree with you on this... have you known people who are indoctrinated in a particular faith, since before birth so to speak? In RC we call them cradle catholics. It is a VERY powerful attachment. My wife is a sweet, loving, giving person, she simply feels obligated to participate in any and all things RC--even at the expense of our marriage, health (e.g. sick kids, etc.) and peace of mind (a biggie for me). I can see the guilt ruminating within her when she is even tempted to "skip out" on a particular event or service. This IS an indoctrination issue... not to say we don't have "other" issues but ours is a 4-person marriage = her, me, God and the RC church. I fear I'm being crowded out, she more or less has told me she would choose her faith (and all the attachments) over me and our marriage. Seriously, I'm not pulling your leg!


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## turnera

She doesn't have to choose her faith over you. She just has to share. But it's going to take you standing up for yourself.


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## EleGirl

Sillyputty said:


> As the OP let me speak to the bait and switch, again. I don't deny it now, nor did I then. Many couples where one is RC and the other is protestant, non-denom or not practicing any faith do in fact get married in the catholic church (after the required counseling). Given that my wife was devout RC, I consented to this, went thru RCIA and marriage counseling but I was honest with her the WHOLE time. Rather than grow together, we have grown further apart--her more religion and doctrine, me more spiritual but less religion. I simply don't buy into the RC being the ONE TRUE FAITH, apostolic succession, etc., etc., etc. She doesn't have much of a problem with me "backing off," however I'm the one who recognizes that we as a family are putting too much emphasis on church/rules/doctrine, like we are doing all the things that "good" catholics *do but there is no meaning behind it.* That's how I feel about the WYD as well, do I really want to devote precious energy and resources to support that cause? I am leaning heavily no, but this could be the start of further unraveling down the road, we shall see. Thanks for your thoughtful reply.


Be careful with this.

While YOU seen no meaning behind what your wife and kids are doing, they apparently see meaning behind it. To them it is real. It's part of their faith. 

Your wife probably does not get your 'spiritual' thing as to many that seems pretty empty. 

It's about respect. Yes it does sound like your wife is going over board. But you seem to have little respect for her beliefs. (Now she might not have a lot of respect for yours either. This could be part of the issue.) The more each of you does not respect the other's beliefs, the more each of you will be driven into your corner on this. 

When you (generic you here) do not respect the beliefs of another person, you are showing disrespect for that person.


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## Sillyputty

6301 said:


> I would be the last person to tread on someone's religious beliefs and I'm still not but maybe it's just me but your wife seems to be way on the extreme side of religion.
> 
> Being a catholic myself but not a very good one, if you don't mind me asking, being that your wife is all about catholic and the teachings of the church, does she use any birth control? I know it sounds dumb but I'm just wondering how catholic she really is.


I got snipped after the 3rd child was born, she consented to this as more children would have required a 2nd addition on our house. She would have been willing to continue having children with respect to church teaching on BC, despite admitting to great difficulties with he demands of parenting and not seeing eye to eye on things. That's kinda my point, not seeing the forest thru the trees type of thing. Anything for the church, to hell with the welfare of our marriage and family. She doesn't say this, but her actions demonstrate this time and again.


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## Sillyputty

EleGirl said:


> Be careful with this.
> 
> While YOU seen no meaning behind what your wife and kids are doing, they apparently see meaning behind it. To them it is real. It's part of their faith.
> 
> Your wife probably does not get your 'spiritual' thing as to many that seems pretty empty.
> 
> It's about respect. Yes it does sound like your wife is going over board. But you seem to have little respect for her beliefs. (Now she might not have a lot of respect for yours either. This could be part of the issue.) The more each of you does not respect the other's beliefs, the more each of you will be driven into your corner on this.
> 
> When you (generic you here) do not respect the beliefs of another person, you are showing disrespect for that person.


If I seem bitter and lacking respect, it's because I AM... not terribly so but somewhat A person can earn respect, and also lose respect from a loved one. When you love someone and have sacrificed so much of your own values and beliefs in an effort to "make it work," if the other person makes no similar sacrifice in fact expects you to give more, more, more until you hardly recognize yourself, they are asking TOO MUCH! I agree we probably have driven each other to opposite corners, I have great difficulty respecting the type of indoctrination that my wife has been subjected to... in all honesty I knew she and her family was devout RC when we got married but I had no idea the depth and breadth of this attachment. It truly seems radical to me, fanatical as someone else mentioned. I could tell you stories but my goal is not to trash her beliefs, I'm not sure I can fix "us" so I am trying to devote my energy on the kids to make sure they have the right balance to navigate thru this life, with an eye on the next life as well (for those of us who believe).


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## turnera

The difference is, when you were dating, she was trying to impress you, so while she was religious, she was also all into you. X years later, she doesn't care about impressing you. Maybe if you made it clear you're unhappy and even wondering about staying married, she'd pay attention again.


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## Sillyputty

turnera said:


> The difference is, when you were dating, she was trying to impress you, so while she was religious, she was also all into you. X years later, she doesn't care about impressing you. Maybe if you made it clear you're unhappy and even wondering about staying married, she'd pay attention again.


Very good point, I was also blinded to what now are obvious clues but I did not recognize back then. Sadly with the kids and extremely busy family life I'm not sure I can even fight the saving-marriage battle right now... eventually it will come to a head and I suspect I will give her an ultimatum.


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## turnera

Telling her so doesn't take any energy.


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## Sillyputty

Just an update for those who commented, since the decision to allow my son to go to Poland or not was mine, I sat him down last night and told him I can't support and told him the reasons why. He was fairly nonchalant, to my surprise, perhaps aided by my promise to support his upcoming driver's ed and eventually, license, car, etc... and the promise of a nice family vacation as someone else mentioned. Thanks all for the support and advice, sometimes as parents we inflate the magnitude of things unnecessarily... unfortunately sometimes the opposite is also true and we can't see the forest thru the trees... Oh-oh now wait, is that my wife calling??? LOL


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## turnera

Good job.

Now, about that book NMMNG...


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## HobbesTheTiger

Having read everything, I think you've made the right choice. However, I hope you will invest a lot of time and energy into figuring out how to transform this marriage into a healthy marriage or, if it turns out to be impossible due to her unwillingness to compromise, figure out how you'll react upon that realisation.

Btw, if she's more eager than most of the priests (as you've mentioned somewhere), is it possible that it's not just a question of indoctrination, but a defense mechanism of your wife, due to certain underlying issues (childhood issues, low self-esteem etc.?)? Maybe exploring this would help in the long run.

Best wishes to all of you.


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## Sillyputty

HobbesTheTiger said:


> Having read everything, I think you've made the right choice. However, I hope you will invest a lot of time and energy into figuring out how to transform this marriage into a healthy marriage or, if it turns out to be impossible due to her unwillingness to compromise, figure out how you'll react upon that realisation.
> 
> Btw, if she's more eager than most of the priests (as you've mentioned somewhere), is it possible that it's not just a question of indoctrination, but a defense mechanism of your wife, due to certain underlying issues (childhood issues, low self-esteem etc.?)? Maybe exploring this would help in the long run.
> 
> Best wishes to all of you.


Thanks... I have done lots of work on my self over the years (continuing to this day), my wife not so much, unfortunately. As I said she is a lovely but she has no sense of self. Not to say that selfless is a bad thing but she is selfless to a fault, all her energy goes into reading, worshipping and teaching RC doctrine. She feels that is right and just in the eyes of God and that's all that really matters to her. Honestly, I don't think a happy marriage is very important to her, it's just another church obligation... I've tried many times to address some of our issues, she instantly gets defensive and thinks I'm trying to control her or deny her faith... her indoctrination is so deeply rooted I fear it is beyond repair, a former priest even told me not to place much hope in correcting this type of behavior. I believe we will part ways eventually, after the youngest turns about 16, if I can hang in there that long!


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## turnera

Sillyputty said:


> Thanks... I have done lots of work on my self over the years (continuing to this day), my wife not so much, unfortunately. As I said she is a lovely but she has no sense of self. Not to say that selfless is a bad thing but she is selfless to a fault, all her energy goes into reading, worshipping and teaching RC doctrine. She feels that is right and just in the eyes of God and that's all that really matters to her. Honestly, I don't think a happy marriage is very important to her, it's just another church obligation... I've tried many times to address some of our issues, she instantly gets defensive and thinks I'm trying to control her or deny her faith... her indoctrination is so deeply rooted I fear it is beyond repair, a former priest even told me not to place much hope in correcting this type of behavior. I believe we will part ways eventually, after the youngest turns about 16, if I can hang in there that long!


Start telling her that now. Keep her informed as you go through the stages of choosing a lawyer and looking at places. Let her SEE you walking away so she has a chance to think about it.


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## Sillyputty

turnera said:


> Good job.
> 
> Now, about that book NMMNG...


Read my previous post turnera, no behavior of mine will address "our" issues. I have read many, many books (not NMMNG but I understand the concept), in her view I am not very nice at all because I oppose "some" RC teaching and have started to assert my beliefs more openly. I am the alpha but that is one biblical precept she will not accept--submitting to husband--so if I go any further in that direction it'll be over real soon and I don't want that right now... I need to be there to make sure the kids aren't completely brainwashed like her, I have an obligation to protect my kids from that. In summary, only God can change her mind and heart, not sure what else I can do.


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## turnera

If you HAD read NMMNG, you would realize it doesn't MATTER how she sees you or whether she 'accepts' what you do because you would be moving forward in your own truth regardless of what she does. What else you can do is learn more about the concept instead of assuming you understand. It has nothing to do with 'submitting to husband' nor beating your chest nor telling her what to do.


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## Sillyputty

Point taken, BUT it's about the timing here... I am already protecting myself emotionally, to some degree, but I am not ready to throw down the gauntlet, get a lawyer, etc. I will continue to sacrifice my own needs until the kids reach a certain age... yes it does suck but I need to stick around so I can help and protect my beautiful kids who I love dearly.


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## turnera

So you connect telling her you're going to eventually move out with 'throwing down the gauntlet.' In other words, you're afraid of her anger. Typical Nice Guy response. Through the book, and its support group, you can learn to stop fearing her anger and start telling her what you're thinking, regardless of her response. And THAT is what will be good for protecting your kids. They need to see good role models because they will become just like you. I'm proud of you for standing up about your son's trip. But waiting out their aging out of the family to 'protect' them really just means protecting yourself. The sooner you accept that (and get help for it), the sooner you can start modeling healthier behavior for your kids. Your oldest son already will most likely marry a strong woman and be a silent husband just like you; may not be too late for the younger ones.


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## Sillyputty

I'll think about it... when you have an insane schedule, 3 kids, caring for elderly parents, etc., throwing down the gauntlet is not a high priority... it's not about me right now, I can accept that. I have lots of patience and am taking steps NOW to protect myself (financially and emotionally), when the time is right I will pursue it more aggressively. I appreciate your advice but I don't need to follow a playbook to do this... are you advocating that I substitute one set of doctrines for another?


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## jb02157

It seems to me that she didn't really give you the final decision here. Even if you say out of safety alone for your son, that he can't go your wife will be PISSED!! Then if you do say he can go and something does happen to him out there, guess who gets the blame. My wife this to me all the time. She sets up a situation where I get to make a final decision HOWEVER regardless of what happens I get the blame or she has justification to be pissed off. 

You are eventually going to have to look the difference of your faith square in the eye and decide if enough concessions both ways can be made.


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## turnera

Sillyputty said:


> I'll think about it... when you have an insane schedule, 3 kids, caring for elderly parents, etc., throwing down the gauntlet is not a high priority... it's not about me right now, I can accept that. I have lots of patience and am taking steps NOW to protect myself (financially and emotionally), when the time is right I will pursue it more aggressively. I appreciate your advice but I don't need to follow a playbook to do this... are you advocating that I substitute one set of doctrines for another?


No, I'm advocating that you start reading what I suggested and spend more time THINKING about what it means, to you and your long-range plans. I'm not pushing you to jump into anything at all. I'm telling you to educate yourself on psychology and Nice Guys and the alpha male and leading a family and not giving in just to keep a woman quiet. These things have long-ranging implications on you, her, AND the kids, and it behooves you to put more effort into righting this flailing ship. The kids aren't going to be around much longer so you (1) have a narrow window in which to teach them healthier attitudes and (2) are going to be stuck alone in a house with a woman who's used to dominating you, ignoring you, and taking you for granted. You're gonna be that guy on those commercials...and I really want you to wake up before that happens.

This situation, where you fearfully and surreptitiously stood up to your wife by bribing your son is a really really bad example of what's wrong with your marriage. And you alone have the power to fix it.


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## soccermom2three

I agree with Turnera that you should talk to her. I'm wondering if you approach it in the context that marriage is a sacrament in RC Church and she's failing in that regard. If she is so indoctrinated then divorce is a big no no. If she knew that you are thinking about it this could wake her up. She doesn't want to break a sacrament.


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## Sillyputty

soccermom2three said:


> I agree with Turnera that you should talk to her. I'm wondering if you approach it in the context that marriage is a sacrament in RC Church and she's failing in that regard. If she is so indoctrinated then divorce is a big no no. If she knew that you are thinking about it this could wake her up. She doesn't want to break a sacrament.


I have tried explaining the irony of her htt attitude given what the bible says about following empty doctrine, she doesn't accept responsibility because she has the "one true faith" (don't get me started on that) and of course mine falls short. I have hinted at the fact that separation may be necessary but despite my disenchantment the situation is tolerable right now. Sure I don't like conflict (who does right) but I'm not afraid of her, it's really as simple as not wanting to leave right now and miss out on raising the kids. They need me and I need them. When/if I threaten to leave I need to be ready to follow thru not just bluffing, that would backfire in a big way. I'm not sure if she would protest a divorce, it might be just another way to "suffer the cross" as some RC's love to glorify suffering.


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## turnera

Like I said, you're in no hurry. I waited until DD23 graduated high school to leave. And then realized I'd been going about it all wrong, and it was ME who had to change, not him. So I did, and things improved.

But you still need to make it clear you have a path out. Now. "As soon as Johnny graduates high school, I will be leaving because you put me last and I deserve someone who will put me first. I'm letting you know now so you can start making preparations."

NOTHING about her changing, nothing about making her do anything, just informing her of her future.


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## Sillyputty

turnera said:


> Like I said, you're in no hurry. I waited until DD23 graduated high school to leave. And then realized I'd been going about it all wrong, and it was ME who had to change, not him. So I did, and things improved.
> 
> But you still need to make it clear you have a path out. Now. "As soon as Johnny graduates high school, I will be leaving because you put me last and I deserve someone who will put me first. I'm letting you know now so you can start making preparations."
> 
> NOTHING about her changing, nothing about making her do anything, just informing her of her future.


I like that approach, albeit things will get very _chilly _ around the house the day I let that out... I have to say, your advice takes on a whole new meaning all this time I thought you were the disgruntled husband with an axe to grind, so to speak... can I ask a woman's perspective on the NMMNG approach, as in did your hubby use it on you and it made you take notice?


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## turnera

We have a really weird relationship. He loves me like no other, puts up with lots of crap from me, I know he never wants to leave me, but I never really wanted him in the first place - but my FOO led me to believe I had to pick anyone who would have me, so I did. I have severe sexual adversity, but my low self esteem had led me to keep giving him sex for 35 years out of fear of confrontation. So I have a hard time telling you if NMMNG would help because I don't really want to be married in the first place. But I know that's just me and my marriage. 

Now, if I tried to step outside MY body and look at other women and what they would want from a psychological perspective, which I DO know a lot about, I would have NO CHOICE but to take notice if my H stopped being a Nice Guy and became the charming, carefree, fun-loving man he was when we were dating who didn't take shyte from anyone. Yes, it makes a difference to women. It is SO common for men to make concessions because they don't understand women and are afraid to make their woman mad. And it is even more common for the woman to then lose interest in the man for being p*ssy-whipped. Women have to respect their men. It's biological. It's caveman. It works.


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## turnera

Sillyputty said:


> I like that approach, albeit things will get very _chilly _ around the house the day I let that out...


There's that Nice Guy again, thinking first with his fear.

Tell me, when you were dating, if she pulled some of that sh*t on you when you were dating, would you have come back around for a second date?


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## Sillyputty

I'm not sure if I would have stuck around to be honest, I like that she was different and I saw her as a challenge because she was hard to connect with, even then, sort of distant... it resonated because I'm a bit the same, very independent, "if you don't like me fine, I'll find someone else." We never had a great connection but it "seemed like" we had enough common ground to make it work... some days it works, some not, I don't think we ever have a real strong connection due to mutual lack of respect... again, it's NOT fear it's the fact that I have to live with this person and we need to be civil for the kid's sake, we don't yell and scream or abuse each other so we are not modeling bad behavior for the kids.


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## turnera

I just watched SuperNanny, and she was teaching the dad how to put the one year old down for a nap instead of holding him because he'd cry all the time. The mom was apoplectic about listening to her baby cry. She wouldn't do this because he'd be crying all the time...and I was shouting at the tv (ask my DD) "Yes, but if you TEACH him that he can fall asleep on his own...he will STOP CRYING!"

How much have you read about boundaries and consequences?


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## Sillyputty

A fair amount... are you comparing me to the dad or the baby? Or the nanny? I am working on myself, i haven't completely given up on the marriage so I feel like I'm pacing myself, if that makes sense. If I advance too far along the road to self discovery, it could be the final nail in the coffin as we drift further and further apart. There are MANY compromises in marriage, as you know, ironically she thinks I make all the decisions... in truth, I make the big ones but she makes lots of little ones that set the tempo for the day.


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## turnera

No, the mommy. Who couldn't see that by doing the right thing, the baby would learn what 'real life' was like and soon learn to soothe himself to sleep and then the crying issue would be over.

You talk a LOT about her reactions. And I keep talking about how you changing what YOU do will change what SHE does. Just like the dad letting the baby go to sleep on its own, and from then on the baby is ok with sleeping on its own. 

Once you start saying 'no,' or 'I'm not ok with that,' she will have to adjust to it. If you start following your core beliefs, she will have to adjust. She will have no choice.

It's what I keep telling you. No longer being a Nice Guy means making choices not based on outcomes but on your core beliefs and, because of that, you don't stress as much on what your spouse does.


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## Satya

*Re: Re: Moral Dilemma, need help!*



turnera said:


> There's that Nice Guy again, thinking first with his fear.
> 
> Tell me, when you were dating, if she pulled some of that sh*t on you when you were dating, would you have come back around for a second date?


I was thinking the same as Turnera. You are more afraid of her reaction than being confident in yours. If she turns ice queen, why do you care? Why are you giving her control? Your day doesn't magically end because of her mood... There's too much stuff to do, as you said. 

You show her you can be happy and carry on with your day, without a worry about her or her attitude. It sends the message that you will be fine without her. And you will, but you need to believe it and show it confidently. 

Your stoicism against her attitude will make her look like a brat. When she's thrown the last toy from the pram you'll be getting on, and she'll either wake up to the reality of your actions or detatch. Either way you'll be too busy working on you to notice and she will have to eat crow for YOU for a change.


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## Sillyputty

Satya said:


> I was thinking the same as Turnera. You are more afraid of her reaction than being confident in yours. If she turns ice queen, why do you care? Why are you giving her control? Your day doesn't magically end because of her mood... There's too much stuff to do, as you said.
> 
> You show her you can be happy and carry on with your day, without a worry about her or her attitude. It sends the message that you will be fine without her. And you will, but you need to believe it and show it confidently.
> 
> Your stoicism against her attitude will make her look like a brat. When she's thrown the last toy from the pram you'll be getting on, and she'll either wake up to the reality of your actions or detatch. Either way you'll be too busy working on you to notice and she will have to eat crow for YOU for a change.


I have been doing these things for about 2-3 years now, I go about my days/weeks more or less doing my own thing and I am thriving for the most part. I won't lie, it's quite lonely but I am making this sacrifice for my KIDS. We parent together and that's about it... incidentally, I am the king of stoicism, I point out her brattiness from time to time but she can't see it. Like I said she values her faith/church above a happy marriage, so she likely will not fight me when the time comes... she will bury herself in church activities and relish/glorify any suffering that may result. 

Despite these things, she is a decent, caring person she is just misguided and neither I nor any priest (thus far) has been able to convince her to chill out on the dogma. Some of this comes from her perceived obligation to pass on her faith to the kids, as they get older I will be able to tell if we can find that common ground we once had (albeit very short lived). I notice on this forum that people are very quick to throw in the towel, our culture is the same way. The grass often looks greener elsewhere but until you have exhausted all efforts to save your marriage, leaving prematurely is really just taking the easy way out. I'm not worried about the "chilly" response from her, I have been getting that for several years!


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## Sillyputty

Side note: I read reviews for NMMNG, some of them resonate with me but in particular I found the 1-star reviews more lucid... here is one of them:

_This kind of book really epitomizes what's wrong in our society today. It's not "all about me."_ _If you go into a relationship with the approach that "it's all about me," you don't (or soon won't) have much of a relationship.

Selfishness is not a winning, fulfilling strategy in couples. If "being nice" didn't work in your relationship, then what needs correcting is your choice of partner, not yourself.

Think of the golden rule and what you can do for your union and your lives together... If trusting, loving, and giving unconditionally doesn't come back to you, then what's wrong is who you're with – never what you did.

A divorce rate near 50% suggests a lot of people making faulty or hasty choices. But the specious response offered in this book is putting the cart before the horse._


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## turnera

My take is you picked what you wanted to hear and that if you haven't read it you don't know if it will help you or not. Whatever, you think you're doing it right despite what people are seeing, that's your choice. We're not in your life.


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## FizzBomb

PBear said:


> Would your son be going by himself, or with a group?
> 
> Personally, I think your issues are much bigger than this one trip. But if this is the hill you want to make your stand on, knock yourself out, I guess. *It does seem that you're the one doing the bait and switch in this case, though, since you "pretended" to convert and accept her religion when in fact you didn't. *
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:
You should never have 'converted' in name only. That's totally your fault. I thought when you got married in a Roman Catholic church you had to bring up your children in the Catholic faith. So mom is in the right. If you didn't agree then you should never have converted. You created these problems yourself. You can't go and backtrack now.

A guy asked me to convert to his faith so that we could get married - No thanks! It would mean renouncing my own. Impossible, I'm a believer. I couldn't take on his faith even if I wanted to.


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## HobbesTheTiger

Thanks for the answer!

How many years approximately of waiting are we talking about before you "can" leave? 5, 10 years?

Also, what exactly are you afraid of in case you divorce her sooner? You mentioned "protecting" your children. What are you afraid will happen to them if you divorce in the near future, that you won't be able to prevent, and that you could prevent if you don't divorce? What is that single unique advantage to staying married as opposed to divorcing regarding your kids?

I'd like to explore that fear/rationale of yours, just to make sure it's sound... If it's ok with you to talk about this.

Best wishes


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## Sillyputty

FizzBomb said:


> :iagree:
> You should never have 'converted' in name only. That's totally your fault. I thought when you got married in a Roman Catholic church you had to bring up your children in the Catholic faith. So mom is in the right. If you didn't agree then you should never have converted. You created these problems yourself. You can't go and backtrack now.
> 
> A guy asked me to convert to his faith so that we could get married - No thanks! It would mean renouncing my own. Impossible, I'm a believer. I couldn't take on his faith even if I wanted to.


I just noticed I had some follow-up on this so I'm responding in kind. I realize NOW that it was a mistake but I did not hide the fact that I could not simply discard my protestant beliefs. My wife and priest who married us agreed that we had enough common ground to make a go of it. The priest didn't even call it a "conversion" since I had already been baptized (twice), it simply granted me full initiation in the church. My real fault was not knowing the depth and breadth of RC indoctrination. I consider myself catholic (with a small c) which in my view is more in line with the teachings of JC himself... RC and protestants have a fair amount in common, it's just that the devout RC places church doctrine on equal par with the saving knowledge of JC so the man-made rules and doctrine are considered equally important as the bible and NT teachings. As an untrained catholic (at the time) I was unaware of this and did not foresee the problems it would create. I underestimated this, my bad all the way I agree with you on that... Buyer Beware!:scratchhead:


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## Sillyputty

HobbesTheTiger said:


> Thanks for the answer!
> 
> How many years approximately of waiting are we talking about before you "can" leave? 5, 10 years?
> 
> Also, what exactly are you afraid of in case you divorce her sooner? You mentioned "protecting" your children. What are you afraid will happen to them if you divorce in the near future, that you won't be able to prevent, and that you could prevent if you don't divorce? What is that single unique advantage to staying married as opposed to divorcing regarding your kids?
> 
> I'd like to explore that fear/rationale of yours, just to make sure it's sound... If it's ok with you to talk about this.
> 
> Best wishes


My rationale for waiting or even "pushing" the issue is that I need to be there (in the home) to balance out the heaviness of the RC teachings. The guilt and dependence associated with RC thought are not just rumors, I have seen first hand how strong the attachment is and how it influences thought and behavior (kids and adults alike). I need to point out it is not ALL negative but it really reeks havoc on a marriage if you don't share the same beliefs and teachings. So that is my main objective for staying, the other is selfish in that I would miss them like crazy (assuming she gets full custody). Although hard to predict, I will likely stay for another 5-7 years until my youngest gets into her teens. That might sound crazy to some of you but my faith gives me the grace to hang in there and make this kind of sacrifice. Like I said she is a good person and our situation is not unlivable, we just lack a strong connection with our core (religious) values and beliefs.


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## turnera

Do you go on walks with your kids? I found that was the best way to get my feelings about things over to my DD, and vice versa. It's a great opportunity for you to bring up things like the RC guilt and then ask the kid what they feel about it, and then present opposing viewpoints. "So the church says you have to do ABC, but think about it: what would happen if you did XYZ? Do you see that as a moral fail? I don't. Here's why..."


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