# Burnt out, hopeless, thinking of leaving everything behind



## romeo (Feb 25, 2017)

Hey all,

We are going through some challenging times in my life, and I wanted to get your perspectives as to if I am seeing things clearly. Because at this point, I am thinking of quitting my job, leave my family and go live with my parents in Canada, never to see my kids again.

I am 45, and my wife is 40. We have 4 healthy and beautiful kids together, ages ranging 6 through 11. We have been married 12 years. We did get married pretty quickly; only 13 month from our first date to our wedding. We had done some long-distance moves, mostly to pursue my job opportunities. We have been living in the "Silicon Valley" for the last 7 years, which I must say further contributed to our struggles; the cost of living is very high here, despite my 'high' salary. Plus we have no close family members nearby. Neither of us have any substance or gambling problems, and we have never cheated on each other (at least to my knowledge).

By anyone's measure, my wife is a beautiful, highly intelligent and well-educated woman; an Ivy League undergrad with a Ph.D in molecular biology, no-less. She also comes from a great family, who accepted me with open arms. I felt I was very lucky to have married her, even though my wife never held herself as such a "great catch". She attributes her low self-esteem to her mom being very sick during her childhood, which I admit I don't fully understand. In contrast, I have a pretty high (unrealistic?) self-esteem, where I approach most things in life with a lot of confidence, even though I know deep down I know how dumb/incapable I am. One of the things I love about my wife is that she is truly impressed about things I am able to accomplish (e.g. what I can negotiate to get paid), and that she believes in me as to I can do greater things in life.

I think it would be correct to say that things were very good between us until we had our 1st child. Once that baby was out, she became completely obsessed with our child and declared that she wanted to be a stay at home mom. She also decided not to pursue her science career, as it would take too much time away from the baby. I agreed to her at the time, and in retrospect I shouldn't have.

At that time I was on a work-visa in US, and my wife a "dependent". I'm from Canada, and being on a work-visa meant that we would have to leave the US, if I were to lose my job (even if we had an American child). So, having that uncertainty hanging over me created a great deal of stress on my part. Given that my wife had a life-science Ph.D from a prestigious US school would almost guarantee a Green Card (permanent residency status) within 18 month, once she starts to work. I finally got my Green Card 5 years after, which now allowed my wife to work part-time, or start a business. Meanwhile, we now had 4 children, plus much higher cost of living - which I am barely managing to pay for it all.

For the last 5 yrs, my wife working part-time was not feasible (or we thought) due to high cost of childcare. So she had been attempting at various business ventures, and unfortunately none of them would pan out. And last year, we had moved once again to be closer to my new higher-paying job, close to San Francisco, which was putting me on 3 to 4 hour daily commute... and with that our rent pretty much doubled again. Fast forward a year, we are now $70K in credit card debt, with no hope of savings for our retirement. (and we do not have any assets)

I consider myself a very progressive person, and my idea of marriage was of an equal partnership. While I still carry a lot of "old-school" cultural baggage, I firmly believe in equal rights for women, including equal pay for work, etc. And with that, I would have no stigma if my wife would be so successful and she were to make money than me. In fact, I would be SO happy, not having to have the sole financial burden of paying for it all... so I would be free to pursue more creative ventures that I dream of, one of which is to create my own business.

What my wife and I have been really fighting a lot, for the last 5 years, is around my wife's approach on managing her business (and her time). I never saw the planning and organization she would need, to make sure she has goals and metrics to measure her success (and failures). Also, as a side-effect of her low self-esteem, she would not take risks; she would only risk few hundred dollars. I am all for failing early and fast in whatever she's trying, so we can move onto trying something else. And my frustration grew over time, as she could have taken a job paying $100k/yr... instead of losing few thousand a year. Her reactions to my criticism were about her taking it personally, although I always try to keep my criticism to objectives, and not make it about her. e.g. one would do this, not that, because of XYZ (and not, you did this because you're so stupid). I can't seem to get through to her, that I am not her enemy and that she needs to objectively assess her business's success and failures, based on goals she set.

And meanwhile, my wife would not accept anything less than "best schools" for our kids, whereas I don't necessarily believe in best schools (as I have seen a lot of very successful who didn't go to "best" schools). And unfortunately, in the US, if you want to send your kids to good public schools, you have to live in really nice (and very expensive) areas, which is what we've been doing. Really, I feel (know) that we're out of our depth at this point; I have seen our neighbor driving a Porsche 918 Spyder, and our next door neighbor has a Bentley and Ferrari.

Most of days, all I hear from my wife is how tired she is. But at the same time, I have no idea what she does all day, after kids are dropped off at 8:30am and picked up at 2 and 3pm. She doesn't cook a lot, and we have our maid cleaning our house every 2 weeks. It really irks me that she had mentioned on few occasions, how our neighbors stay-at-home-moms have full-time nannies (and yes their husbands are either venture cap managers or sold successful Internet startups). She is on Facebook a lot (all the time?) as she is now trying to build Facebook-based business, which she had spent $9k of my parents-in-law's money so far, which hadn't shown any revenue for the last 6 months. Also, when I come home, kids have been mostly hooked up to iPads/computers, and they aren't doing "great" at school either; I feel my wife should be tutoring them more.

That said, I really do love and adore my wife, I think more so than most guys. In a way I am enabling us to get in such high debt, as we eat out 4-5 times a week... because it would help my "tired" wife. (BTW another thing I love about my wife is that she's physically very healthy; one less thing for me to worry about!) We spend about $3000/mo on eating out, and I honestly don't know why we spend another $1500/mo on groceries. I am pretty sure we throw out a lot of food... which again goes to my criticism of lack of planning around household. After ~$6k/mo rent, we're getting in debt, even at my $250k+/yr salary. Plus I get my wife things before she asks for them, and to date she had never asked for anything (e.g. jewelry, beauty products, latest & best Apple/Bose/Dyson stuff - $400 hairdryer!). I also make sure that her family is well taken care of whenever they visit, pack her mom's favorite chocolates when she visits her mom.

My wife agreed to looking for a full-time job, if she didn't have a profitable business by end of 2016. Now she is saying that it's too early to give up, and she only agreed to start looking for new job if she didn't meet her goal. That is really boiling my blood, as 1) she knew the intent of our agreement, and that 2) she will not honestly focus on her job search.

To add to that, my workplace is very stressful nowadays, due to people playing stupid politics and marginalizing my work.

Oh, and of course, our sex life: we do about once every 2-3 weeks, which is mostly due to my wife "being tired"/"not in mood"/"monthly visitor" (down from DAILY sex, pre-kids). Yes, that's another source of our tension as I have a pretty high sex-drive. That said, I really try hard to "not look at another woman twist", to be respectful to my wife.

Since last month, I have told my wife that I will exit from my current job and move to Canada... and perhaps I will NOT work, period. I will live off on welfare, and she can do whatever she needs to, to pay for all the "extras". Good news is that we get public healthcare and "decent" public education for kids, regardless where we are. I told her that she can come to Canada with kids with that understanding, or I am just gone. At this point, as much as I love my kids, I would be fine never seeing them again, if I will never have to fight the same fight again with my wife.

Last week, my wife left the country to visit her mom, who is going through cancer treatment, and she will be back tomorrow. Our kids had no school, so I took the week off to take care of them, spend time with my kids. What I just realized, is that I didn't really miss my wife for the last week. I wonder if I have just fallen out of love with her, after years of fights around same issues. I am pretty sure a lot of "respect" that I had for her is lost...

I will say that I am being very selfish, to entertain these ideas even at the cost of our children's hardship. I consider myself "enlightened", and to that extent I know that none of all this will matter in hundred years. My children will eventually die, and so their grandchildren, and so on. Given my limited life, I want to enjoy a little. I have spent last 12 years working my butt off, mostly to make more money year-after-year (which I have been succeeding) to support my family. I no longer have any hobbies, and I don't enjoy anything. I feel I need a major change in my life, for me to re-discover myself.

So I guess what I'm asking you all is this: Am I just having a "mid-life crisis", or have I really lost the love I had for my wife? If latter, do you think it's worth salvaging, or are we just delaying the inevitable (divorce)? Because what I think I need in this life, is a wife who 1) has her **** together, get stuff organized, especially her time, our finances, 2) wanting to have sex with me more often (until I can't!), 3) take interest in planning our retirement with me, and 4) restores "hope" in me.

In my wife's defense, I will say that I am not the easiest person to live with. I do exhibit some degree of OCD, I ask rationale for everything (not out of malice, however), and I am needy (i.e. I want to feel loved, over "duty"). I also have a lot of anger and rage at times, and I am extremely stubborn (and annoyingly right a lot).

FYI, while my wife has suggested us seeing a marriage counselor in the past, but I had refused as 1) MC will tell us the same thing that I already know, and 2) what makes a MC qualified to advise us? If you guys think that seeing a MC is still a good idea, please enlighten me as to what you've learned.

Thank you in advance for your perspectives, especially from women folks.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

I think you have to sit down with your wife and explain that you are burnt out and that in order to be able to manage for the future, you all have to alter your life styles, keeping up with the Jones has led to this scenario.
She has a PhD so should be able to understand a spreadsheet and budgeting. 
You are living beyond your means and need to get that in check, it is doable if you both plan and stick to the plan. The stress of long hours and being overstretched financially is a double whammy. YOu are 45 and need to be planning for the future.

Sit together and make a plan for the future.
Why did you have so many kids, by choice or?
Why must they go to expensive schools,
talk through all the things that is in your expenses, if she will not work, then have to cut back. 
The reality is, you could drop dead with a heart attack due to the stress, then what?
This has to be clear to her/family.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Google "Dave Ramsey" and get a plethora of information regarding family budgeting issues!*


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## romeo (Feb 25, 2017)

Thanks for your replies so far.

We ended up with 4 children as we were going for a girl as #3; we ended up getting twins - a boy & a girl. Since then I had vasectomy so we're done there.

I see you are seeing our issue as a mainly financial one. FYI, our most spending is on food and rent. The "things" we buy are of relatively immaterial to our financial challenges, given my level of earning IMO, at about 2%. Regardless, thanks for your advice on budgeting, and yes I realize that would relieve other pressures we have in life. BTW, I recently saw a documentary called "The Minimalist", which I would highly recommend to others who are having money issues.

To me, the bigger issue is my wife not having the empathy toward me, wanting to help me, for sake of my (mental) well-being. The deeper issue seem to be around her not having the confidence and willing to take on challenges, commit to it, get organized, and work hard to meet her goals. Her lack of confidence in life is something I didn't see when we got married.

What is most frustrating for me, is that she is more than capable of succeeding at whatever she wants to do, and she has all the tools she needs to get organized. Ideally, she would plan things out on spreadsheets, and use her calendar to organize her daily tasks, even for doing mundane stuff like reminders to do laundries. She just doesn't. She would try for a week, but then she would never follow up, let things slip. She would make excuses and she's always "tired" for not following up.

I guess what I am looking for is a competent life-partner, who can help me in life. I also tried to sympathize with her with the fact that we have 4 little children, who can be handful. But I have been also advocating her to get a job, so she can take a break from all the kids craziness, and frankly I think having a more adult interactions would bring more satisfaction to her life and confidence. But she insists on having an an "at home business", which to me will not help her.

By uprooting our family and moving to another country, with significant changes to our lifestyle, I am hoping that it will be an enough of a "shock" for her to get her moving. i.e. to put her in "survival mode". 

To be honest, for many years I thought her "plan" was to retire on her parents wealth. But based on a conversation she had with her parents last year, that doesn't seem realistic either; and I think she realized for the first time too. I have also brought up that I cannot love her unconditionally, as I want something in return; her willingness to work hard. In addition I told her that my decision to retire will be made for me by my employer, and I won't be about to work forever. FYI I do have a $1M life insurance for another 20 years or so, which wouldn't be sufficient for maintaining our current lifestyle in this area. She will have to move, but that's not really my concern as I'm dead.

In a way, one can argue I am being petty here. We don't have other "big" problems in our marriage like spouses who are abusing each other with malice, or having substance issues or extramarital affairs, etc. But to me, my marriage is just not living up to what I expected, and it's just too much for me. I just wish that she would do things to take pressure off my life, not add to it. So, in theory, having to live in Canada would eliminate the need for me to work so hard, because a lot is provided by the government... and I am hoping that would improve my relationship with my wife. I feel bad for my kids as they witness a lot of fighting between us; it can't be good for their mental health.

I really appreciate your feedback. I need a reality-check as to whether I am the one being unreasonable here; perhaps this is just a norm for any marriage and all these issues are self-inflicted on my part, by having unrealistic expectations. Thanks.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Go to marriage counseling. A good counselor might be able to explain to her that you thought you were marrying a financial partner and she backed out of that. 

How much will you share in the kids and home responsibilities if she gets a job? I mean, clearly you don't cook if you're eating out every night. 

Will you be an equal home partner?

And abandoning your kids is bad enough, but to do it without even having tried counseling is beyond selfish. Sure you know the issues, at leasr from your perspective but. a counselor might help your wife understand, and you might learn better ways to deal with your own issues you admit to as well as how your wife views things. 

You never know what you might learn.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

I do not know if you are in technology field, but being in the valley my first thoughts were GIGO my friend... I was in mainframe repair in the 1980's and had many friends who were codies and this was a common reflection on life.

The inputs into your life are as lines of code... not even the best compiler can fix bad code, all it does is show you where the change needs to occur and as in life, our masterpath has to be fixed manually because autodetection is without focus on such unmindfulness.

Some lines can be adjusted and of benefit... others simply need to be removed.

The lines that bring us happiness compile best... and sometimes fewer lines we have the better the program runs.

What lines bring your wife happiness?

I won't pretend to know what a molecular biologist does, much less with a doctorate, but "best" is relatively misplaced if it is pride based, thus missing mindful happiness layered with it.

Understand those lines in your application for better clarity in your compiler.

I humbly disagree that you do not have big problems... you stated you question your respect for your wife in that a lot has "been lost".

Perhaps these mirror your disappointments... reflections are often projected on others when we are not sure how to accept our own.

Until you get "overwhelmed" replaced with calm... something will always flop instead of flip.

Code that leaves you frustrated to the level you are... hurts you.

Focus on the self-love, self-respect, self-worth code that doesn't.

Then seed that confidence into your marriage and perhaps her watching the mindful gardener in you will will help her identify the environmental organisms that are polluting your acceptances in your relationship with a more focused precision and allow her to witness the behaviors without the microscope (clarity doesn't come with just seeing it, understanding and changing actions complete the sample).

ETA: I spent a day in Cupertino once on Infinite Loop in the late 90's... it was an amazing day and met several very influential engineers. As we had dinner, the conversations drifted to family and only one had children, the rest said it was not in their best interest to do so as it was hard enough in the valley to maintain a marriage, much less a family. I asked them if they were happy and they said the money was great and I decided not to pursue it at the time but wonder how such an answer would be shared today or if it was simply an insight into what was to become as we have traded mindfulness for stress (money).

Thank you for allowing me to meander a bit... you had a lot to say!


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> I do not know if you are in technology field, but being in the valley my first thoughts were GIGO my friend... I was in mainframe repair in the 1980's and had many friends who were codies and this was a common reflection on life.
> 
> The inputs into your life are as lines of code... not even the best compiler can fix bad code, all it does is show you where the change needs to occur and as in life, our masterpath has to be fixed manually because autodetection is without focus on such unmindfulness.
> 
> ...


I see the Rise of the Machines in your writing....careful, Wheel borne Man!

Alas, poor YORICK ANSI C.....the mindful Gardener hath unearthed thy skull.

I knew him well, Horatio! He had his Sun conjuct the Rascal Mars. No shame knew he. His Great Grandfather ABEL, had Advanced on the Booleans Expressive romaine Language and razed Cupertino by invoking the Clear Clarion Call.....it's walls crumbled...

global_start....._start.....msg db 'Save Romeo'. The original Romeo had perished. The code writer was inept. A bumbling scribe, he.

Now, the ghost of Romeo must attempt to save his forward lofted filus... the genetic namesake "romeo of San Francisco".
....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

When an airplane is going down, loses atmospheric cabin pressure, the oxygen masks drop down from the airborne "Helios". You are instructed to put on your own mask first, so that you can then save others.

O' @romeo put your mask on, first. Go to Canada, save yourself, put yourself in good financial shape. Then EXFIL your children from San Freako Sisco. Bring the slow moving, unloving wife...or replace her with a Abenaki beauty with a large heart and chest. Recharge yourself at Old Crow Flats, as did many generation of Canadians, before you. 

Do not abandon them "Chirren". To do so, will instill [in them] a hate for their PAPA. They will be majors, in short time. You will need their smiling faces, and loyal backing.. they be not FOAF's. They are your blood.

The original Romeo commuted suicide in error. His perceived 'Juliet' loss, hath indeed collapsed his will. He was hasty. He did not think things through, as he lived in the moment. He had not an eye, peering at next years promise.

Do not run in haste. Carefully plan your Resurrection in the Northern Land. Save yourself, save your children.

Good Luck, Canuck!


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

Seems like you are way over your head here. Leaving your wife and kids behind is not the answer. Do really want to be the kind of man who abandon his young kids?

Please know that what you are feeling is normal for what you are experiencing. You are just over come with feelings of not getting ahead. 

I would advice you have a discussion with your wife and explain to her how you feel. She will get emotional but you are going to have to get her to understand that she needs to listen and understand what you are going thru. Because if she does not and you can't get her to help you, then, you will be asking for a separation.

Figure out if living and working in Canada will more feasible than staying here. Sit down and make a firm plan. Discuss this with family over in Canada because you are going to need some help relocating the family if it comes to that.

You main problem is that you are living like the Jones while you earn like the Smiths. You have a wife who is living in her own world of make believe. Why does a SAHM needs a cleaner when she is home all day? Why do you guys need to eat out so often in the week? Why is she do disengage when the kids are at home?

You see you have more issues than just money. You have a wife who is living the kind of life she wants. 

Sit down and write everything down on paper. Write down your earning and expenditure. Show it to her and explain how this cannot continue.

It will also make things manageable when you have a plan and is looking at things more rationally vs emotionally.

Let us know, how things are going.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Stop ...doing the things that are hurting you.
Clear ...one's mind, let meditation do it's work.
Load ...one over-clocking of self-love, self-respect, self-worth.
Ready ....the hard lessons you have learned and get up again to try, live, and dream without walls.
Execute ...allowing life to make you better rather than bitter.

then...

Ready ...the prime purpose in life.
Execute ...your map to happiness and follow it.

The Honeywell Level 6 Model 60 way...


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## romeo (Feb 25, 2017)

Thanks everyone for sharing your perspectives.

I may have been discounting the stress caused by having to live in Silicon Valley with such big family. Thanks for pointing that out. I also agree I should not divorce in haste, especially when young children are involved.

For now I will focus on moving my family to Canada in July (until kids finish their school year). Once there, I will seek MC with my wife. I will provide an update to you then.

Again, thank everyone for taking your time sharing your thoughts.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

romeo said:


> Thanks everyone for sharing your perspectives.
> 
> I may have been discounting the stress caused by having to live in Silicon Valley with such big family. Thanks for pointing that out. I also agree I should not divorce in haste, especially when young children are involved.
> 
> ...


Thanks.

Some of us will be here. I will be "there". 

Fishing in upper Ontario. Catching toothy Pikers, Bass-assward lunkers.

My eyes Wall eyed off from everyday chaos.

And I will enjoy the hoots and the calming silence with my brethren Loons.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

romeo said:


> Thanks for your replies so far.
> 
> We ended up with 4 children as we were going for a girl as #3; we ended up getting twins - a boy & a girl. Since then I had vasectomy so we're done there.
> 
> ...


The problem is not money. The problem is that you have trained her to sit on her butt and not do a damn thing while you go bust your arse making a lot of money for which you have nothing to show.

Here's my suggestion:
Go see an attorney and file for divorce, have her served.
Explain to her that she either gets a job and contributes something to the marriage, or you will not be married to her anymore.

Your comments about leaving your kids forever?
You are either a total ass, or you are so screwed up in the head from constant stress, that you don't know what you're saying.

You need to realize that you have allowed your life to get to this, by giving your wife no consequences for being just flat out lazy and irresponsible.

Change that crap. And if your wife decides she'd rather have a divorce than get off her butt and contribute something to the marriage--- you have your answer in what to do. I'd give her a month to find some kind of full time job, no matter what the pay.

Your wife didn't want to stay home and be a great mom, she wanted to sit on her rear. And the lack of effort in running the home, and letting the kids do whatever, it shows that.

Don't run from your problems. Solve them. If she won't help you, then you can leave knowing it wasn't your fault.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Here is another perspective.

Your wife was a "very" high achiever. I suspect she was driven to perform from an early age.

It took everything out or her. All her time and energy went into her long journey toward success.

Once she graduated, she collapsed into a lump of flesh. She is burned out.

This is a not-so-uncommon reality in high achievers. I have seen this happen...up close.

This fact, if true, is not going to help repair your situation, but it will take the sting out of the beehive life that you live in.

Her successful professional life ended being a brilliant "flash in the pan". Short lived fame. No long term staying power, ensued.

Her mind just................let go. A nervous breakdown in slow motion.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Your wife is a lazy, entitled leech. She isnt a partner. Your kids are in school, she needs to get a real job, because clearly the crap she is doing from home is not making any kind of real contribution. You should not need a cleaning lady or to eat out every single day. Evinrude is right, YOU allowed this to happen. Time to take back some control. It does sound like you need to move to a more affordable area. Its unreal to me that you have a 3-4 hour daily commute, when you are paying out your ass to live in the location you do. Can you not find something closer to work for the same amount or less? Maybe moving to Canada will light a fire under her butt...whether to start contributing, or to end it with you. Time to budget, for sure, and I do think you two could benefit from counseling. Fire the cleaning lady and hire a marriage counselor.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

You are about to become a WAH a first for here I believe. There have been more then a few WAW (walk away wife) posted about by there husbands though. At first most poster will closely question is there is an OM (other man) either a EA or a PA (emotional or physical) which is the norm and is classified as an exit affair. So which are you? 

Second forget MC, start with IC and get perspective. Hey, sometimes it is you not them. Two popular books, both with long staying power: Discover Your Love Language - The 5 Love Languages® and His needs...Her needs". Others wise do what our fathers did, our grandfathers did, etc. Suck it up and settle into a quiet life of dispair. 

So start with these suggestions first and later we can start checking phone bills, browser history http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/209754-standard-evidence-post.html, 180, red flags. For know just ciean up your side of the street and get centered. 

But first things first read the two book suggestions, which you will need regardless.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

Oh check out jobs in Texas. I remember when the gas prices tanked back in the day. People in the northeast where driving around with bumper stickers "they let us freeze, let them starve". One thing Bush or someone in his admin did right was say need a lot more types of industry here then oil and arg. So someone went out and got more then a few types including tech. 

On a side note a lot of people are wondering about Putin and Trump. I say watch what happens with frackimg and other new well drilling. I mention this because Canada, Sweden, Norway among other countries may take a real hit to their economies if oil prices keep dropping. The hit will effect Tech and social benefits. Benefits will take a hit or these countries will have to run huge deficits. Which will effect interest rates which will..... Lot of jobs and taxes paid in the oil industry period. Is it there fair share is an honest debate but don't discount the loss to the exconomy if that part of the tax and job market will have. 

Want to see insane check out the price or living in ND or SD where franking is going on. I know several people in FL who are sharing three or four persons in a single wide paying insane prices and sending money home and coming back for a week or a month at time and going back repeating the cycle. The money they make is unreal. There life really sucks. They actually remind me of how most undocumented workers here live.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

I realize my last post usually belongs in the politics section. But, the OP is considering moving to Canada with a young family. He needs to consider the job market there. Both for himself and his wife in any move. My advice is to consider both the employment prospect for both him and his wife.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

I think that first off, what I would do is sit down with your wife, and let her know how burnt out and unhappy you're feeling. That's excellent that you've supported her through numerous business ventures, but there comes a time when, if they just aren't working, it's time for her to admit that, and find a job in her field. Even if it's part time so that she can be there for the kids after school. Also if it's part time, she might have some extra time to pursue her business on the side. At this point though, I would have to say that she's gotten used to living this lifestyle, and isn't partial to changing and putting more of an effort in. 

So, you moved closer to your job in San Fran, and you still have a 3-4 hour commute? :-o

You mention that you guys are in quite a bit of debt and you have no retirement savings and no assets. Does your wife know how in-debt you are? If not, she needs to know this information.

What really struck me in your message was how much needless stuff you guys have/do. If she doesn't work full time, your wife has the time to spend cooking some meals. Invest in a large-sized slow cooker to make big pot meals. I have one of these for my husband and I, and I tell you, it's the easiest thing ever. Throw the ingredients in, and let it do its thing.

Stop going out to eat 4-5 times per week, and reduce it down to a couple times. And, pick cheaper places to go to. With a family of 6, that can't be cheap to feed, especially with eating out!

Sit down on the weekend when you have a little time to plan, and figure out some easy meal preps for the week (this is where that slow cooker comes in). I like to do this because it gives huge opportunity to plan not only for the week, but into the future as well. Example: if I make a lasagna, I make 2. It doesn't take much more effort, and then we have an extra home cooked lasagna frozen in our freezer for a later date. Google recipes; there's SO MUCH out there that is easy to prep and healthy.

Fire the maid. I don't mean to sound sexist, but for how much work your wife does, she can surface clean the house weekly, and you guys can do a deeper clean on a schedule that works for you. Plus, your kids are old enough where they can help out as well. They live there too, and can help out.

On that note, you don't need a full-time nanny; don't entertain the idea of spending more money on something you don't need just to keep your wife happy. You also don't need a Spyder, a Bentley or a Ferrari. I don't know what you drive, but I'm sure it's just fine!

Kids being in the best schools. If this isn't something that you really believe they need, sit down with your wife and talk about it. Technically, you and you alone are paying for this, and if you cannot afford it, don't do it. Let them finish off this school year, then consider putting them into mainstream education. If they flourish in private school, they'll flourish in public school, and who's saying they can't become something great either way? And yes, if your wife is the one at home, I would think that she would be the one spending more time with them helping with homework, etc. 

$6000/month on rent… is there any way that you guys can move somewhere cheaper? That rent (for something you'll never own) is ridiculous, especially on a single salary. If your wife is opposed to moving somewhere that maybe isn't as "nice", tell her she needs to start contributing financially, as you cannot handle all the expenses any longer.

Stop buying her expensive things! A woman can only wear so much jewelry, and that goes for beauty products too. Do you have a working Dyson? If so, why do you need to keep updating them? And, what person needs a $400 blow dryer?!? I think mine cost $15, and I've been using it for years. Just stop all of this; it's unnecessary. 

If it were my husband in this situation, and he agreed to look for a full time job by a certain time, and he didn't do this, I'd hold him to it. She needs to start contributing, and she also needs to stop borrowing from family to start various businesses. Not only is she hindering you guys, but other people's financial situations as well, and that's not fair. I recently started up a couple home-based businesses with my OWN money when I was laid off. If they weren't feasible for me to do, they wouldn't have happened, and I surely wouldn't have taken money from my parents to start them up. My parents are near retirement age; why would I want to ruin that for them?

Sex life: talk about this, and tell her you're unhappy. 

About not caring if you leave your kids: they're your kids; care about their well-being, and whether or not you ever see them again. I understand you're upset and want to rediscover yourself, but you don't have to cut your kids out to do that. If you truly have lost respect and love for your wife, and didn't miss her when she was gone, this is something you really need to think about. 

Marriage counselling: I haven't been, but am in individual counselling to work through my own issues that I have in my own marriage. It's been helping so far. I also plan on working with my husband, and possibly doing counselling together. A counsellor is trained to deal with issues that you guys are having. They can tell you loads of things that you don't already know, which brings me to another thing. You mentioned that you're annoyingly right much of the time. I can tell you this: this isn't the case at all. No one can be right almost all the time and be happy as well. This is a choice you have to make: be right or be happy. I live with someone like that too (has told me he thinks he's perfect and has a photographic memory), and while he thinks he's right much of the time, he's not. Nor am I. It's not a competition; it's about getting along to the best of your abilities, and if you're trying to do that with a huge chip on your shoulder, that's not going to work. 

And those are my 2 cents, for what it's worth.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

I think that the thoughts about running out on your family may well be rooted in depression. When I went through a serious bout of depression 14 years ago, I had similar thoughts. I believe those thoughts were very akin to those of suicide. You're fleeing pain and effectively ending your life, only without pulling the trigger.

Whatever you do about your marriage, please make sure you're okay. Go see a professional and get checked for depression. A combination of temporary meds and regular exercise pulled me out of my despair. A great thing, not least of all because it enabled me to look at my marriage through a healthy lens.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

romeo said:


> Thanks for your replies so far.
> 
> We ended up with 4 children as we were going for a girl as #3; we ended up getting twins - a boy & a girl. Since then I had vasectomy so we're done there.
> 
> ...



Financial stress is one thing, but I think you also underestimate the stress of taking care of 4 young kids. It is possible that you are not being realistic either? Women like your wife are highly educated, then give up a bright future to give birth to and take care of young children while their husbands want them to give 100% household support so they can focus on their careers. Then when that is sorted the wife must go and earn money to take the burden of you? WTF! 
It is small wonder she has lost self esteem. Yet, expect the woman to then go back to work and still give household support, take care of kids, etc. What does she actually need you for then?

Incidentally whose idea was it to work in a high stress environment in the first place, whose idea was it to have the career you have, you made choices now you want your wife to cover for your bad choices?
I think your stress levels are so high that you do not realise what you are saying. If that is the case carefully sit down with your spread sheets and work out the pros and cons of staying or leaving and discuss with wife. Money cannot compensate for health or relationships.

Ask yourself this question,

1. what value do you bring to your wife? I am sure there are many men out there who would be happy to have a wife with so many kids to stay at home and they would also financially provide.

2. Seems to me like you might be putting too much on your wife. She is expected to balance kids and a new business and support you at the same time, what are you doing for her?
3. Women like to have a man who makes them feel secure financially and emotionally, seems to me you are doing neither. 
4. Sounds like you thought you could retire on her parents wealth too or had a woman you could financially rely on also? I think your wife is beginning to see the kind of man you are.
4. If she made demands of you and said, I take care of kids, house, support your career aspirations, etc so get off your bloody high horse and be a man and lead the family, what would you say?

The bottom line is you do not need a wife, you need a personal assistant who can organise your life with spreadsheets, real life doesn't work like that.


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## romeo (Feb 25, 2017)

GTdad,

Thanks for sharing your experience and perspective. I think you are spot on. So I do realize that I need to be careful making any important decisions, given my current state of mind. I am hoping that moving to a place where I can take some load off my mind will help me see things more clearly, so I will start there. I have also started changing my eating habits in the last few weeks, so I hope that will help as well. 



GTdad said:


> I think that the thoughts about running out on your family may well be rooted in depression. When I went through a serious bout of depression 14 years ago, I had similar thoughts. I believe those thoughts were very akin to those of suicide. You're fleeing pain and effectively ending your life, only without pulling the trigger.
> 
> Whatever you do about your marriage, please make sure you're okay. Go see a professional and get checked for depression. A combination of temporary meds and regular exercise pulled me out of my despair. A great thing, not least of all because it enabled me to look at my marriage through a healthy lens.


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## romeo (Feb 25, 2017)

Thanks for your feedback.

Honestly, I would not care for my wife to be making any money at all, if I felt that she cared to do well in her current "job" - a stay at home mom (SAHM). If she just took care of things at home, I would be so happy to go to work, and all my stress from work would just melt away when I come home. What I expect of her as a SAHM are as follows:

1. Help me budget so we can plan our future and make sure we don't go broke. This would involve her reviewing our bank statements, understand where our money goes, and help us be disciplined with our finances. Care to pay bills on time; we had incurred late fees a number of times because she forgot to pay things on time, and at those times I would take-over finances again after few months of her trying again to be on top of things.

2. Plan out her days, making sure daily essentials are done, such as laundry and meal prep. Here, I do not insist on her doing all the work. In face, I do the bulk of grocery shopping for her after my work, and our shopping list is pretty impromptu (as we don't have meal plans). Sure, she can also enroll our children to help her out.

3. Make sure are children are doing well at school. Since we live in such nice ($$$) neighborhood in order to send our kids to good public schools, I feel that our kids should be helped to keep up with their peers, also help them instill self-confidence. My wife does not spend a lot of time with kids on their academics after school. She feels that it's the educator's job. While I agree with that to an extent, kids are taught on their work ethics at home. My kids are at best performing at average or below (according to their teachers). We are not at the point where they need tutoring (or perhaps they do), but that's another expense I would rather not have.

4. Make sure our kids aren't wearing stuff that's just way too small/old; I just found out this morning that our almost 6yr old son is still wearing 2-3T underwear (Yes he's pretty skinny, but come on). I often find our kids wearing socks that are way too small, etc.

That's really all. I don't expect her to be a "supermom", which is the term she often uses to describe some of the moms who seem always active in schools and other activities.

Just to be clear, once she drops off kids at 8:30am, she has a lot of time until 2pm (and 3pm) pickup. All our kids have 1hr piano lessons weekly and a 45 min ballet class for the girl. That's it, plus occasional dental/medical appointments for kids. 3 out of 4 kids get hot lunch at school, so there isn't a lot of meal prep required either (1 has allergies).

My comment about "retiring on my in-law's wealth" was considering how much money we end up spending, without any thoughts to our retirement plan. I thought may be my wife knows something that I don't, so perhaps there will be a nice surprise (?) at the end. (and my FIL was a CEO of multi-national companies in the past and they are retired in Costa Rica in a decent house). I did not marry my wife expecting that I would get a free-ride by any means, as I consider myself a hard-working guy, who has my own ambition of being self-made.

My wife is not evil. I think she grew up in a pretty wealthy household, seeing her mom always having household help, and she was on her path to do what she wanted to study without much financial pressure or to make money. She's really quite naive and innocent, and that was one aspect that I really love about her. What I have discovered over the years is that, she seems paralyzed from knowing what she needs to do in life, while being completely overwhelmed by having 4 little kids. Instead of making plans and taking actions to bring a sense of success in life, she is often hiding behind "being too tired of having to take care of 4 kids", which I don't have much to come back at, except being frustrated. And yes, I can't help but to fight with her about all the things she's not doing well, and of course that makes things worse.

The reason for my post was to see if my "demands" are unreasonable. I married my wife to help us build a future together, where we can look back in 30 yrs and say "we did pretty well", and I would imagine that means having good plans and following through them. I feel that our odds are still against us, even with good plans and intentions, so we are doomed if we can't even get ourselves to set near-term goals and take actions to meet them.

And yes, I won't hide the fact that I can be pretty self-centered too, wanting to ultimately have a life that's good for me. As someone who doesn't believe in after-life, I want to make sure that I get the most out of this life... and I feel I'm being dragged down by my wife's non-actions. My life can't be about simply having to support my wife and family, and I'm dead after working to my bones for decades.

Anyway, I think I said enough to shed some light on what I am expecting in marriage, and please do point out whether I have unreasonable expectations. Thanks.




aine said:


> Financial stress is one thing, but I think you also underestimate the stress of taking care of 4 young kids. It is possible that you are not being realistic either? Women like your wife are highly educated, then give up a bright future to give birth to and take care of young children while their husbands want them to give 100% household support so they can focus on their careers. Then when that is sorted the wife must go and earn money to take the burden of you? WTF!
> It is small wonder she has lost self esteem. Yet, expect the woman to then go back to work and still give household support, take care of kids, etc. What does she actually need you for then?
> 
> Incidentally whose idea was it to work in a high stress environment in the first place, whose idea was it to have the career you have, you made choices now you want your wife to cover for your bad choices?
> ...


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## GTNBoom (Oct 24, 2016)

A Compass. A Rock. What a Woman Wants More Than Anything From a Man

What does a woman desire more than anything from a man?

Is it love?

Companionship?

Intimacy?

She desires all these things of course. But what she desires more than anything.... Is to "let go" and give her heart and love to her man knowing that she can trust him to guide and direct her in life... She wants to fully relax in the comfort of knowing that no matter how hard she pushes you.. No matter how bad her behavior is... That you are unmovable... That your core is unshakable... 

That is what a woman wants more than anything... But the feminine won't tell you this. This is instinctual for the feminine. 

Survival: Female Instincts 

The feminine represents change and creation. She is the vessel by which the species survives. Without her carrying and birthing a new creation our species would be extinct. As such, her utmost mission in life is to give birth and protect her offspring. Whether she has offspring or not, the instincts tied to birth and creation will dominate her behaviors. They are instinctual. 

As this is the case, the female needs a man that she can trust. For she won't bring offspring into this world with a weak man she can't trust. It is the man's role to provide and protect, and guide and direct. She must count on him for protection. For guidance. For direction. 

She Won't Believe Your Words 

How does a woman learn to trust a man? By his behaviors of course. A woman would be stupid to simply believe his words. 

Think about it. A woman meets a man and says:

"Can I trust you?"

Man says:

"Yes you can trust me."

Now, how stupid would that be for a woman to simply trust a man who says that? This would be very dumb of her. So why do men think that the can say how much they love their woman and care for them as if it makes a difference? This is foolish thinking. 

How does a woman learn to trust a man? By his behaviors. She tests him. She provokes him. She pushes him away. 

And how a man reacts to these behaviors tells her if she can trust him. If a woman can manipulate you, control you, push you away, etc. 

Then she can't trust you. 

You Must Be Immune to Her Moods and Emotions 

Women test men. Women provoke men. They never stop. Ever. This is how they find out if they can trust you. 

Can you handle her at her worst? Can you handle her when she's ice cold? When's she's *****y and mean?

Can she manipulate you? Can she control you? If she can she won't trust you. 

This is why you must be unaffected and immune to her changing moods and emotions. When your woman is telling you she "doesn't love you" anymore. When she tells you she "doesn't see a future together." 

How do you handle it? 

A strong masculine man handles it with love and caring. But he's never needy or insecure. A needy insecure man can't be trusted. An insecure man can't be trusted to guide the women in life. To protect her. 

That is why she won't trust you if you're needy and begging and constantly talking about the relationship. 

You're Her Rock

The feminine is like the ocean current. Sometimes she's a small current. Sometimes she's a tsunami. The waves represent her moods and emotions. Always changing. Always the potential for a storm. 

When she crashes against you, you must be a rock. An unmovable rock. If you move she can't trust you to guide her. If you move and are easily affected by her moods and emotions you're like a broken compass. Worthless to her.

The feminine wants you to guide her. She wants you to be a lighthouse in the midst of her storm. She wants you to be a rock that she can crash against. Knowing that no matter how violent she is. You won't crack. You won't bend. You are unmovable. 

The Saddest of Ironies 

When your woman pulls away. Wants a divorce. Wants space. What is she telling you? She's telling you that she doesn't trust you to guide her in life. To be that rock for her. To be that lighthouse. 

Your protestations of love and caring are simply washed away by her waves. They are meaningless. The only way to gain her trust again is to be a rock. Unmovable in the face of her storm. 

Ironically. In the face of this storm. You have the biggest opportunity you will ever have to show her that she can trust you. If you remain masculine. Strong. Unmovable in the face of her storm. She will eventually realize that she can trust you like no other man before. That she can trust you to guide her in life like no other.

When you come out on the other side of this storm. She will see in you a man that she can trust and love. And you will be her rock. When does the storm end? No one knows. But it always... Eventually ends. And when it does you need to be that rock. Unmovable. Unaffected. Guiding her. D


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## GTNBoom (Oct 24, 2016)

If you wish for your wife to follow you and your lead. She must trust you implicitly. Implicit trust is an instinctual thing for the female. You must learn how to behave properly in order for this to happen.


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