# Married Man Sex Life Primer



## DanF

Hey guys, I just finished Athol's book. I found so many references in there that really went hand in hand with what I have been doing while rebuilding my marriage. IMO, this man is dead on the money. Even if your life is great and you marriage rocks, read this book. You will get some neat ideas.


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## sinnister

I've wanted to read this book for a while...but honestly I can't read. No I can perform the act of reading, I just dont find it enjoyable. 

Am I screwed?


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## DanF

sinnister said:


> I've wanted to read this book for a while...but honestly I can't read. No I can perform the act of reading, I just dont find it enjoyable.
> 
> Am I screwed?


I don't know. I have always been a big reader and do it constantly. I have about 3000 books for my Kindle.


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## Deejo

You can get the gist of what Athol is saying by going to the Married Man Sex Life blog ... 

That way you only have to read in chunks.


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## romantic_guy

Welcome to the MMSL brotherhood! Maybe this can be the start of a support group.


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## joelmacdad

The book just works, I mean it really works to make your marriage better and for sure make your sex life better. I read it a few months back and I'm starting it again.

I have tried many things in the book and get the exact response from my wife the book says I will get. Amazing.


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## Hope1964

I am buying two copies of this book and giving one to each of my boys when they get married. Make it three - one for my daughters husband too.


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## morituri

Hope1964 said:


> I am buying two copies of this book and giving one to each of my boys when they get married. Make it three - one for my daughters husband too.


Why not buy copies for *all* your children *before* they get married?


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## I Know

The book has been a huge win for my wife and I. She respects me more and is more attracted to me. And I get better sex and a happier wife. We were doing well before I read the book. But it is better than well now.


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## Duke

I agree his book was a great help. Interestingly, but not unexpectedly, the results were not immediate. I still have a ways to go but Athol definitely set me on the right track.

Soon I will have to get a copy for my 15YO son's Kindle. I wish I knew all this when I was his age...


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## OhGeesh

Book has some good parts, but some of his ideas aren't super current.

For the pushover husband who wants to take control it's good no doubt!!


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## Atholk

Thanks for the appreciation.


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## CantBeJustMe

Funny. I found the forum here because of Athol's book.


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## CantBeJustMe

OhGeesh said:


> Book has some good parts, but some of his ideas aren't super current.
> 
> For the pushover husband who wants to take control it's good no doubt!!


Can you expand on the "Super current" comment. I'm curious.


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## This is me

I just bought the book and wish I would have known about it 2 years ago. The first pages had me at hello (beta?).

I would be interested in thoughts on how this book can help me in my situation. In a nutshell, 17.5 yr marriage, seperated for 4 months, no sex for 4 months, (not that I haven't pursued). She has been coming back home on the weekends, but it is more like dating.

She is detached but does not want to give up yet.

Is there an area of the book that might best help our situation? I believe I am more Beta, but have some Alpha features.

Thoughts?


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## I Know

This is me said:


> I just bought the book and wish I would have known about it 2 years ago. The first pages had me at hello (beta?).
> 
> I would be interested in thoughts on how this book can help me in my situation. In a nutshell, 17.5 yr marriage, seperated for 4 months, no sex for 4 months, (not that I haven't pursued). She has been coming back home on the weekends, but it is more like dating.
> 
> She is detached but does not want to give up yet.
> 
> Is there an area of the book that might best help our situation? I believe I am more Beta, but have some Alpha features.
> 
> Thoughts?


Why did you separate?


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## SimplyAmorous

I bought the book for my own curiosity.... my husband would fall asleep with any book in his hands, but he'll listen to me share anything, and learn with me. 

With 5 sons, it should come in handy..... I love the balance it brings to the whole Beta/ Alpha debate. Beta is not a bad word--though it often comes off that way if you google it -ALPHA Is KING... BETA Is to be avoided at all costs. Total BS.

Both have their GOOD and Both have their BAD.....Men and us women need balance. One plus for Beta men... they generally make the best lovers ... they are more caring to please their wives, caring more for their pleasure than their own many times. 

Charts on this explained here -Atholks 5th post down ....

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/23220-definitive-alpha-beta-thread.html

.


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## This is me

I Know said:


> Why did you separate?


She made the decision. She had disconnected from the marriage months before, possible EA, mid life crisis, built up resentment from things she held in for years combination. In November she got upset and left. 

I am just wondering if there is a part of the book that would best apply to my situation.


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## This is me

SimplyAmorous said:


> I bought the book for my own curiosity.... my husband would fall asleep with any book in his hands, but he'll listen to me share anything, and learn with me.
> 
> With 5 sons, it should come in handy..... I love the balance it brings to the whole Beta/ Alpha debate. Beta is not a bad word--though it often comes off that way if you google it -ALPHA Is KING... BETA Is to be avoided at all costs. Total BS.
> 
> Both have their GOOD and Both have their BAD.....Men and us women need balance. One plus for Beta men... they generally make the best lovers ... they are more caring to please their wives, caring more for their pleasure than their own many times.
> 
> Charts on this explained here -Atholks 5th post down ....
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/23220-definitive-alpha-beta-thread.html
> 
> .


But the Beta must insert Alpha traits or be doomed as he becomes less appealing.


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## SimplyAmorous

This is me said:


> But the Beta must insert Alpha traits or be doomed as he becomes less appealing.


It's a shame , isn't it .....but yeah, often the reality. 

I wouldn't say I disagree with you.... But personally my husband is more Beta by nature, never been the Stand up Confident Assertive dominant type with a big ego- with women lusting after him.... his temperment is more introverted by nature and more passive. He does , however, have an attitude of ....."I don't give a damn if you like me or not" .... I kinda dig that... but when it comes to family & me....he cares deeply. 

We all have to work with what we ARE, right ? 

For instance, my temperment is more assertive & bold many times... someone could not beat me into becoming Mrs Passive, anymore than I could make my dear husband be more Dominate & aggressive... I may need to tone down my natural inclinations a bit ,where he needs to tone his UP , I would agree with that ....... but all in all.... at the end of the day, he is still a more "laid back" soul and I am a more assertive soul. It works in our marraige amazingly well. 

He is ALPHA "enough" for me.... 

Like for instance, going by those charts ...the GOOD ALPHA is ....


1. *Physcially fit - well dressed *... My husband is not into sports, doesn't have a 6 pack, He is a very thin man, looks good enough to me in his greasy work clothes - I don't need a man who works out at the gym & wears a suit & tie. Though I DO care about his health a great deal. 

2. *Self confident - Domineering /Leader *-- My husband has no desire on this earth to be a Leader or a Boss, he is not domineering, he is more the Peacemaker type, a behind the scenes man, He is more introverted. Love him anyway!

3. *Mysterious and Unpredictable *. Nope, he is not a load of this either - I pretty much know what to expect from him, but it's still wonderful and GOOD -for me. I guess I would choose stability & transparency over these things. I bring enough excitement for the both of us, he would say the same. 

4. * Friends and Colleagues think he is HOT*... not bad looking but He would more be looked upon as the model husband & father type. That is how he is viewed.... do some of my single GF's wish they had him... Oh yeah, but I don't think they are panting by any means... Most of them went for the Alpha's & ignorned the Good Beta traits & got burned. (though my husband does not fit the unfavorable "not Alpha traits" ...except maybe "Routine", nor the "not beta" traits . 

Then if you go by what is says is *Good about Beta *......

1. Bringing Home the Bacon
2. Handyman
3. Good with Kids
4. Faithful 

He is outstanding in all of these....Superb hanyman, Better dad than I am a Mom likely, Faithful is his middle name. If I had to choose which pair of Traits were more important to me personally ...I would choose the Beta traits over the Alpha...

But that is just me... better that we don't have to choose and yes...we can get a nice taste of them all in 1 man.... that's a darn good package to be had.


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## This is me

I seem to have many of the traits as your husband. 

Alpha: 
Physically Fit: (look 10 yrs younger than my age) in shape.
Self confident: Better than I was when younger, but honestly this is being tried while in this state of seperation, abandonment and rejection.
Mysterious: Not at all.
Looks: Above average for my age. I have been told I will be a real catch if this marriage fails. (That sounds Beta as well though).

Beta:
Making more $$ than ever, Handy and Faithfull/ Loyal.

I am jealous of your husband for finding someone who respects those qualities. Honestly, she does recognize them in me, but seems to focuses on the flaws which we all have.


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## I Know

This is me said:


> I seem to have many of the traits as your husband.
> 
> but seems to focuses on the flaws which we all have.


This is likely the key to the whole thing. You wife lost her gina tingle for you. "I love you but I'm not in love with you". The first part of the book will describe how you got to be in you current pickle. The rest of the book talks about how to get out of it. 

You may not be able to win your wife back (assuming you want to). But you do have a good chance of it. She must have found something attractive about you at 1 time. Otherwise she would never have married you. 

You need to get the book and read it NOW. You will feel much better once you do. It will give you a framework for mentally processing the situation. And positive steps to repair it. I cannot recommend this book highly enuf. It is earthshattering info.


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## This is me

I Know said:


> This is likely the key to the whole thing. You wife lost her gina tingle for you. "I love you but I'm not in love with you". The first part of the book will describe how you got to be in you current pickle. The rest of the book talks about how to get out of it.
> 
> You may not be able to win your wife back (assuming you want to). But you do have a good chance of it. She must have found something attractive about you at 1 time. Otherwise she would never have married you.
> 
> You need to get the book and read it NOW. You will feel much better once you do. It will give you a framework for mentally processing the situation. And positive steps to repair it. I cannot recommend this book highly enuf. It is earthshattering info.


I bought it this week. Reading it right now. You are right, it is so blunt and makes sense. According to what she and our MC tell me, is that she IS attracted to me. I would rate me an 8/7 and her a 7/6. So there should be no issue with sex rank, but from what the MC tells me, she wants to feel safe before she will open up to me.

I should have asked more questions about that answer. She told me herself, she does not want to do it until she is confident we will make it. Seems like the chicken and egg thing. Less hurt if we don't make it. I think there will be hurt either way if we don't make it, if you ask me.

How do win her trust is the big question.


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## I Know

This is me said:


> I bought it this week. Reading it right now. You are right, it is so blunt and makes sense. According to what she and our MC tell me, is that she IS attracted to me. I would rate me an 8/7 and her a 7/6. So there should be no issue with sex rank, but from what the MC tells me, she wants to feel safe before she will open up to me.
> 
> I should have asked more questions about that answer. She told me herself, she does not want to do it until she is confident we will make it. Seems like the chicken and egg thing. Less hurt if we don't make it. I think there will be hurt either way if we don't make it, if you ask me.
> 
> How do I can her trust is the big question.


I have to grill you on this  Her actions are not meshing w/ what you have described so far. 

Are you saying that she just up and left and you have no idea why? What is your theory on why she took off? Do you have kids? What are your arguments about?


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## This is me

No Kids. I believe it was triggered by a Mid Life Crisis. Lots of changes in apperance over the last year and a half, She is at that age of chemical change of 46, all this combined with her keeping in many old, some very old incidents that she built up resentment. If you have ever seen the video on youtube of the walk away wife syndrome, she fit the description and I was completely unaware when she first said divorce.

Over this year of pain the issues are have changed, a moving target. Her issues are varied from not being there for her (mostly have been, but there were a couple of examples where I see I failed), not joining her in going to some parties (mostly went to parties, but some not interested in), and generally that she was not happy (I think we all are responsible for our own happiness).


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## I Know

This is me said:


> walk away wife syndrome, she fit the description and I was completely unaware when she first said divorce.
> 
> (I think we all are responsible for our own happiness).


In theory you are right. We are all resp for happiness. But practically speaking, in a marriage, if 1 person is unhappy, then the whole partnership thing fails. 

UR situation is every man's nightmare. Happened to my best friend. His situation was 25 yrs of marriage 2 kids. He knew something was not right almost from day 1 of marriage. But he never did really find out what the deal was. she had a midlife crisis at 49 YO. I gave him a copy of MMSL and he saw himself in that alot. He will not get his wife back unfortunately. 

When did you become aware that there might be an issue? Are you telling me that you had no idea? 

Sh*t tests have happened to me in my 25 yr marriage. Mostly about sex. She was too tired, she had stuff to do, headache, blah blah blah. MMSL helped me get a handle on that. My wife was telling me (without telling me, of course, she is female after all) that I needed to do something. My solution was to up the manly stuff and start "taking what was mine". I am starting to use that "take what is yours" mantra a lot lately. It applies in career, home, everywhere. It's my way of telling myself to be a man. Be THE man. Even w/ my kids, it is helping a ton. I just exxplain to my kids that I am the dad. They have to perform to certain standards or I am failing at my job. They have really responded to this well. 

Check back here and let me know how it's going. I hope you can work this out. Sounds like you want to. And she is seeing you on the weekends. Maybe you have to make a date w/ her. Tell her to be ready at 6pm, dressed nicely, and take her to dinner somewhere nice. don't tell her where. just do it.


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## CantBeJustMe

In your situation, I think the main premise, the most important part of the book, stays the same.
Work on YOURSELF. Improve yourself. You can’t make your wife do anything, you truly can’t. Facing that can be the hardest part of this entire journey. Accepting things that you know you can’t control.
At that point start improving YOU. Get in shape. Change up the routine. The entire premise of Athol’s book (in my lowly opinion) is that you take care of yourself FIRST. Then you address the area where you need improvement. You have to truly honest with yourself to do this. Focus on that. Don’t focus on ‘changing’ or ‘improving’ the relationship. All you can do is focus and improve your interaction with your spouse and the actions you take. Stick to it. The longer a relationship stays the same, the longer a person says and does the same things, the longer it takes the other spouse to realize that you are making true changes, not just changing temporarily to try and get what you want (you marriage back). You have to prepare yourself to move on. I’m not saying you do move on, but you get yourself ready to do just that. The greatest benefit of this whole thing? Best case you improve yourself, your spouse sees this and it saves your marriage. Worst case? Your marriage ends, and guess what? You’re an entirely different person from the one that was involved in that failed marriage. You are in a great place to take care of yourself, focus on what you need to do, and these changes to YOU will change the way you interact with people, especially women.


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## This is me

I Know - Yes you are right I want to save it if we can. I became aware around November of 2010 that she was not engaged in our marriage. I had been very happy and content, she was giving me signs that she had fallen out of love. In Feb 2011 she said the D word and I was shocked. Made many mistakes. Nov 2011 she walked away, which I think she really wanted to do in the spring as she brought it up in counseling.

We are on our second MC and she is still confused as to what she wants to do. So I am hanging in as I still see our marriage as 95% good.


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## This is me

CBJM - I have been working on myself. In IC along with the MC. Also exercising, more golf, rekindled old guy friendships and picked up the guitar again. 

I can see I need to improve my interactions with her. I find it hard because of the eggshells I find myself walking on. I keep thinking if I take the additude of "let her go" I might loosen up a bit more, but I would not be honest with myself, as I do not want her to be gone. Maybe if I build those Alpha traits it might work better.


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## Tall Average Guy

This is me said:


> CBJM - I have been working on myself. In IC along with the MC. Also exercising, more golf, rekindled old guy friendships and picked up the guitar again.
> 
> I can see I need to improve my interactions with her. I find it hard because of the eggshells I find myself walking on. I keep thinking if I take the additude of "let her go" I might loosen up a bit more, but I would not be honest with myself, as I do not want her to be gone. Maybe if I build those Alpha traits it might work better.


I would suggest working on the attitude that you will survive if she goes. You can want her to stay, but at the same time recognize that life will go on if she leaves. Being at peace with that and knowing that the sun will still rise if it happen is important. In a sense, you love becomes a gift, as it is something you want to give rather than something you have to give.


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## This is me

Tall Average Guy said:


> I would suggest working on the attitude that you will survive if she goes. You can want her to stay, but at the same time recognize that life will go on if she leaves. Being at peace with that and knowing that the sun will still rise if it happen is important. In a sense, you love becomes a gift, as it is something you want to give rather than something you have to give.


I reached that tude back in January after being in limbo. I told her in MC that we either needed to start living together some of the time, or I needed to move on. I accepted that I can survive without her. I don't want to, but will. My point is that I want us to both be happy and if she can't be happy with me, than let me find someone who wants to be.

She agreed and is now claiming that this weekend time together is a good test on how we are together. We have always been good together in my eyes, but however she wants to spin it, we are moving in a direction.

I see the fun loving suggestions in the book that I dream about having with her, but it seems so far off before she will play with me like that at this point. I may have to test a few to see if I can get her good chemicals to release for me.


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## MEM2020

This,
All those chemicals are linked to excitement. And ALL excitement contains an element of fear. You deprive her of fear and thereby of excitement by managing all your behavior around your fear of losing her. Mostly women say they want to feel safe when they are getting a pure beta espouse pattern from their partner.
I have found the best way for her to feel "safe" is to let her experience "free fall" for as long as SHE wants and then rescue her when she wants to be rescued.
Your W isn't experiencing any free fall knowing you are sitting home hoping she returns.
If you told her that you both needed to date other people for a few months - that would get a chemical reaction.


UOTE=This is me;597111]I reached that tude back in January after being in limbo. I told her in MC that we either needed to start living together some of the time, or I needed to move on. I accepted that I can survive without her. I don't want to, but will. My point is that I want us to both be happy and if she can't be happy with me, than let me find someone who wants to be.

She agreed and is now claiming that this weekend time together is a good test on how we are together. We have always been good together in my eyes, but however she wants to spin it, we are moving in a direction.

I see the fun loving suggestions in the book that I dream about having with her, but it seems so far off before she will play with me like that at this point. I may have to test a few to see if I can get her good chemicals to release for me.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frootloop

Okay, just ordered the book. I do enjoy the marriedmansexlife blog, I might as well make sure I haven't missed any parts of it.


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## This is me

MEM11363 said:


> This,
> All those chemicals are linked to excitement. And ALL excitement contains an element of fear. You deprive her of fear and thereby of excitement by managing all your behavior around your fear of losing her. Mostly women say they want to feel safe when they are getting a pure beta espouse pattern from their partner.
> I have found the best way for her to feel "safe" is to let her experience "free fall" for as long as SHE wants and then rescue her when she wants to be rescued.
> Your W isn't experiencing any free fall knowing you are sitting home hoping she returns.
> If you told her that you both needed to date other people for a few months - that would get a chemical reaction.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks MEM, I appreciate the feedback and can see what you are saying. It is odd when you think abou that giving fear can actually make her feel safe. I get it though.
> 
> I think I gave her a sense of the free fall when I told her we need to move on or she moves back to some degree. She actually showed caring emotion and sadness to me when she got the message I was ready to move on.
> 
> Sadly she falls back a little to the uninterested seperated wife role once the dust settles from me saying lets move on, this has happened several times in the past year. Not sure how to make it stick.
> 
> Hmm you got me thinking about the dating others scenerio. So the question is would it be a blind threat or an actual plan. Not sure our MC would agree to it being the best move.
Click to expand...


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## morituri

File for divorce. It won't be finalized for months to come but it will end your stay in limbo and will settle once and for all if the marriage will be saved or end.


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## MEM2020

This,
You produce excitement, start to get a response and immediately move to reassure her that you are waiting for her thereby killing the effect.
By waitIng on her open ended timeline you have basically abdicated control of your life.

To break the pattern you send her an outline of divorce terms, tell her you are going to begin dating effective immediately and suggest she does the same.
Tell her you are weary of being her plan B and will be looking for someone who doesnt perceive kindness and patience as weakness.

And then don't let her come back into your life without coming into your bed first.


UOTE=This is me;597275]


MEM11363 said:


> This,
> All those chemicals are linked to excitement. And ALL excitement contains an element of fear. You deprive her of fear and thereby of excitement by managing all your behavior around your fear of losing her. Mostly women say they want to feel safe when they are getting a pure beta espouse pattern from their partner.
> I have found the best way for her to feel "safe" is to let her experience "free fall" for as long as SHE wants and then rescue her when she wants to be rescued.
> Your W isn't experiencing any free fall knowing you are sitting home hoping she returns.
> If you told her that you both needed to date other people for a few months - that would get a chemical reaction.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks MEM, I appreciate the feedback and can see what you are saying. It is odd when you think abou that giving fear can actually make her feel safe. I get it though.
> 
> I think I gave her a sense of the free fall when I told her we need to move on or she moves back to some degree. She actually showed caring emotion and sadness to me when she got the message I was ready to move on.
> 
> Sadly she falls back a little to the uninterested seperated wife role once the dust settles from me saying lets move on, this has happened several times in the past year. Not sure how to make it stick.
> 
> Hmm you got me thinking about the dating others scenerio. So the question is would it be a blind threat or an actual plan. Not sure our MC would agree to it being the best move.
> 
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...


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## This is me

It is interesting all the different advice that is out there. I was reading Divorce Busters today which advises taking it slow and having patience in this situation, which seems to be a mid life crisis. To look for positive signs, which I have seen. Could take months, could take years, but the bottom line is to save the marriage.

Our MC who is also advising to give her time to work through it.

Then there is the option to just move on, which I have done, it had an effect and got her to compromise and spend more time to test the waters and changes. Seems to be a step in the right direction.

Not sure this is the time to file for divorce, that option is on the table and we have already agreed to make in amicable if it gets to that. 

I guess I was looking for something that would work within the current situation of weekend visits (which has been a positive step) that can help her gain the safety she is looking for to help her gain the love and chemical release, other the the final straw free fall?


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## Tall Average Guy

This is me said:


> It is interesting all the different advice that is out there. I was reading Divorce Busters today which advises taking it slow and having patience in this situation, which seems to be a mid life crisis. To look for positive signs, which I have seen. Could take months, could take years, but the bottom line is to save the marriage.
> 
> Our MC who is also advising to give her time to work through it.
> 
> Then there is the option to just move on, which I have done, it had an effect and got her to compromise and spend more time to test the waters and changes. Seems to be a step in the right direction.
> 
> Not sure this is the time to file for divorce, that option is on the table and we have already agreed to make in amicable if it gets to that.
> 
> I guess I was looking for something that would work within the current situation of weekend visits (which has been a positive step) that can help her gain the safety she is looking for to help her gain the love and chemical release, other the the final straw free fall?


The advice that Divorce Busters and your MC are giving is clearly good for your wife in the short term. It gives her time and support to work through things to get to a better place.

It is not good for you in the short term, because it leaves you in limbo. You get to twist in the wind waiting for some undetermined day when she finds herself and wants to come back. Of course, that day may never come.

The advice you are getting here to let her go eliminates that limbo phase. It is you moving on without your wife to try and find happiness. Of course, that may also not come. On the other hand, you moving forward may cause your wife to decide to come back to you. Then again, it may not.

So in a nutshell, you can't predict the future.

The question is whether it is worth it to you to endure the short term pain of limbo to wait for her? If so, for how long? What does she need to show you to convince you that she is working to get the two of you back together?

While I know what I would do (cough, end the limbo, cough), you have to answer that question for you.


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## This is me

Tall Average Guy said:


> The advice that Divorce Busters and your MC are giving is clearly good for your wife in the short term. It gives her time and support to work through things to get to a better place.
> 
> It is not good for you in the short term, because it leaves you in limbo. You get to twist in the wind waiting for some undetermined day when she finds herself and wants to come back. Of course, that day may never come.
> 
> The advice you are getting here to let her go eliminates that limbo phase. It is you moving on without your wife to try and find happiness. Of course, that may also not come. On the other hand, you moving forward may cause your wife to decide to come back to you. Then again, it may not.
> 
> So in a nutshell, you can't predict the future.
> 
> The question is whether it is worth it to you to endure the short term pain of limbo to wait for her? If so, for how long? What does she need to show you to convince you that she is working to get the two of you back together?
> 
> While I know what I would do (cough, end the limbo, cough), you have to answer that question for you.


I heard and read about a study that was done at the Unversity of Chicago with about 5000 married couples, of those 5000, 600 or so were unhappy in their marriage. They interviewed the 600 unhappy couples 5 years later and the findings were: Of those who divorced, only 19% claimed they were happier, and of those who stayed married 80% were happier than before.

If this is true, it seems to me it is worth avoiding divorce and trying to make it work. I also had a conversation with a client this past week who told me she just completed divorce. I told her about my situation and that we were still working on it and her reply was to do all you can to not go through divorce.

20 years with someone who I and most around us thought had a very good marriage, seems to point to her being in a mid-life fog and maybe not thinking clearly. Maybe it will lift.

Like you said no one can predict the future, and my guess is that most of the people who frequent this site had bad experiences and advise from that POV. Those with successful (saved marriage) outcomes mostly would stop coming back here being happy in their situations. I could be wrong. I guess I am still hoping to be a part of the latter group someday. No offense to anyone here!


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## Tall Average Guy

This is me said:


> I heard and read about a study that was done at the Unversity of Chicago with about 5000 married couples, of those 5000, 600 or so were unhappy in their marriage. They interviewed the 600 unhappy couples 5 years later and the findings were: Of those who divorced, only 19% claimed they were happier, and of those who stayed married 80% were happier than before.
> 
> If this is true, it seems to me it is worth avoiding divorce and trying to make it work. I also had a conversation with a client this past week who told me she just completed divorce. I told her about my situation and that we were still working on it and her reply was to do all you can to not go through divorce.
> 
> 20 years with someone who I and most around us thought had a very good marriage, seems to point to her being in a mid-life fog and maybe not thinking clearly. Maybe it will lift.
> 
> Like you said no one can predict the future, and my guess is that most of the people who frequent this site had bad experiences and advise from that POV. Those with successful (saved marriage) outcomes mostly would stop coming back here being happy in their situations. I could be wrong. I guess I am still hoping to be a part of the latter group someday. No offense to anyone here!


While I think those statistics are interesting, please think about the variables that are unstated. Examples include why they were unhappy, whether both partners worked to improve things, how long they had been married, and how many of those couple that divorced had one spouse who was happier while the other was not.

That being said, I wish you luck. I certainly don't want to see anyone divorced as a general matter, and 20 years together is something to want to fight for. However, 20 years alone is not a goal to fight for. Rather, fight for what you can have with your wife, and recognize that she needs to be there fighting for what she can have with you. If she is not, make sure that you look out for yourself.


----------



## This is me

Tall Average Guy said:


> That being said, I wish you luck. I certainly don't want to see anyone divorced as a general matter, and 20 years together is something to want to fight for. However, 20 years alone is not a goal to fight for. Rather, fight for what you can have with your wife, and recognize that she needs to be there fighting for what she can have with you. If she is not, make sure that you look out for yourself.


Thank you. 20 years is worth the fight. It may be a lost cause in the end, but I would rather find her heart again and grow old together like we once planned, or know that I gave it my all trying to save it.

If she can not fight for me, like I have been fighting for her than I know I will need to move on. She is not fighting like I am at this point, but trying with bounderies. 

As long as I see progress I will stay in the fight, but if we stand still, then I will need to find a new life.


----------



## I Know

I agree w/ the harder line taken by MEM11363. She knows that you are always going to be waiting for her no matter what she does. Your actions are not telling her that you are not going to wait forever. Give her a deadline. Until you give her a specific deadline to move back in, sleep with you like you need her to, she is going to dangle you along. 

I get it that you want to save the marriage if possible. I would too. But it takes 2 to make the marriage work. If she has grievances about you or your behavior, she needs to air those so that you can address them. If she has none then what is holding her up? 

I think you will get good results from being strong on this. I think she WANTS you to be strong and to define your boundaries. Women will test you. She is testing to see whether you are strong enough to pass the test.


----------



## This is me

I Know said:


> I agree w/ the harder line taken by MEM11363. She knows that you are always going to be waiting for her no matter what she does. Your actions are not telling her that you are not going to wait forever. Give her a deadline. Until you give her a specific deadline to move back in, sleep with you like you need her to, she is going to dangle you along.
> 
> I get it that you want to save the marriage if possible. I would too. But it takes 2 to make the marriage work. If she has grievances about you or your behavior, she needs to air those so that you can address them. If she has none then what is holding her up?
> 
> I think you will get good results from being strong on this. I think she WANTS you to be strong and to define your boundaries. Women will test you. She is testing to see whether you are strong enough to pass the test.


We are working on the issues in MC. I still see her being in a fog and the MC explains it like I have seen it. She retracts to the little girl inside, does not deal with things like a woman and runs. This coupled with the MLC have made her put all the blame on me.

I have shown I can be strong and willing to move on, but want to give her the chance to figure it out. 

Sorry for hijacking this thread on Athols book, which I recommend! I guess my main purpose for coming to this thread was to see what might be recommended from the book for a guy in my situation and only seeing her on the weekends, working towards the sex part again. Who knows maybe this weekend?


----------



## MEM2020

This,
A couple observations. This whole "go straight" to the brink thing is something I subscribe to "only because"
It has worked consistently for me in my one marriage. I truly have little idea how "normal" my wife's response pattern is.

I cannot imagine us not being together. She really is the best thing that ever happened to me. That said if she didn't want to be with me, I would not inflict my company on her. This is a voluntary arrangement. My advice to you is not about your pride. Based on my experience it maximizes the chance of recon.

For some reason my w seems to associate some level of fear with love. I don't claim to understand it but I accept it.


UOTE=This is me;598674]We are working on the issues in MC. I still see her being in a fog and the MC explains it like I have seen it. She retracts to the little girl inside, does not deal with things like a woman and runs. This coupled with the MLC have made her put all the blame on me.

I have shown I can be strong and willing to move on, but want to give her the chance to figure it out. 

Sorry for hijacking this thread on Athols book, which I recommend! I guess my main purpose for coming to this thread was to see what might be recommended from the book for a guy in my situation and only seeing her on the weekends, working towards the sex part again. Who knows maybe this weekend?[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## I Know

This is me said:


> Sorry for hijacking this thread on Athols book, which I recommend! I guess my main purpose for coming to this thread was to see what might be recommended


No worries. Conversation is like that. You never know where it is going to flow. Sometimes the best stuff on here does not follow a straight line. 

Your situation is custom made for the book's advice. I believe you are at the point where he would advise being pretty firm about what you want and need. Your W has had a lot of time to think it over already.

BTW, Athol encourages folks to email him w/ specifics. Maybe he could help


----------



## This is me

MEM11363 said:


> This,
> A couple observations. This whole "go straight" to the brink thing is something I subscribe to "only because"
> It has worked consistently for me in my one marriage. I truly have little idea how "normal" my wife's response pattern is.
> 
> I cannot imagine us not being together. She really is the best thing that ever happened to me. That said if she didn't want to be with me, I would not inflict my company on her. This is a voluntary arrangement. My advice to you is not about your pride. Based on my experience it maximizes the chance of recon.
> 
> For some reason my w seems to associate some level of fear with love. I don't claim to understand it but I accept it.
> 
> 
> UOTE=This is me;598674]We are working on the issues in MC. I still see her being in a fog and the MC explains it like I have seen it. She retracts to the little girl inside, does not deal with things like a woman and runs. This coupled with the MLC have made her put all the blame on me.
> 
> I have shown I can be strong and willing to move on, but want to give her the chance to figure it out.
> 
> Sorry for hijacking this thread on Athols book, which I recommend! I guess my main purpose for coming to this thread was to see what might be recommended from the book for a guy in my situation and only seeing her on the weekends, working towards the sex part again. Who knows maybe this weekend?


_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]

Mem, Appreciate the feedback. I can see it and have seen it. Over this year their have been three times where she said divorce and I agreed, each time her fear and love for me came out from behind the clouds which kept me in the game.

I may be foolish, but I really hope and want her to find her love on her own terms and not by having to move it to the brink again. I believe we are on that path and hope our MC can guide us along. 

She agreed to come by again this weekend which is a step in the right direction. The MC agreed to address the intimacy or lack there of issue this weekend. I think that is a critical step to moving forward or not.

Like you said she is the best thing that has ever happened to me. Worth the fight.


----------



## This is me

I Know said:


> No worries. Conversation is like that. You never know where it is going to flow. Sometimes the best stuff on here does not follow a straight line.
> 
> Your situation is custom made for the book's advice. I believe you are at the point where he would advise being pretty firm about what you want and need. Your W has had a lot of time to think it over already.
> 
> BTW, Athol encourages folks to email him w/ specifics. Maybe he could help


Thanks. Well more custom if she was living at home and allowing me to make some moves. When she did live here earlier last year I tried the 10 second kiss, failed as her heart was already gone. Sad, as that is a great tip that would have worked a year before for sure.

She has had alot of time, but I do see some softening of her heart. She left me a message today and it was in that loving voice I used to know so well.


----------



## MEM2020

Hmmmmm

The "standard" model of addressing intimacy issues goes something like this: "You talking ...." her hearing "I want you to love me more" resulting in her being seriously turned off. 

You and I are very different. I am willing to be utterly ruthless when it comes to preserving the "core" of the marriage. You are determined to give your W "the rush" by asking her to love you more - which is the ultimate "rush killer". 

I am willing (not happy about it but willing nonetheless) to give my W the "rush" by scaring the skirt off her. On occassion (every few years or so) this is what she NEEDS, and at bedrock I am a giver. 

Sex is a means for achieving Apex intimacy. If you create too much intimacy/closeness before sex, what you accomplish with a request for sex is a surge of emotional claustrophobia. This is a guess, but an educated guess at that: Your W wants/needs you to give her the space to love you. THAT will create desire. 

Deep sigh. In the spirit of being the "giver" I told my W I would leave her alone for as long as she liked and go find a playmate. Wjhile I am familiar with makeup sex, this was my first taste of hysterical bonding.....



This is me said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mem, Appreciate the feedback. I can see it and have seen it. Over this year their have been three times where she said divorce and I agreed, each time her fear and love for me came out from behind the clouds which kept me in the game.

I may be foolish, but I really hope and want her to find her love on her own terms and not by having to move it to the brink again. I believe we are on that path and hope our MC can guide us along. 

She agreed to come by again this weekend which is a step in the right direction. The MC agreed to address the intimacy or lack there of issue this weekend. I think that is a critical step to moving forward or not.

Like you said she is the best thing that has ever happened to me. Worth the fight.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Sawney Beane

MEM11363 said:


> Hmmmmm
> 
> The "standard" model of addressing intimacy issues goes something like this: "You talking ...." her hearing "I want you to love me more" resulting in her being seriously turned off.
> 
> You and I are very different. I am willing to be utterly ruthless when it comes to preserving the "core" of the marriage. You are determined to give your W "the rush" by asking her to love you more - which is the ultimate "rush killer".
> 
> I am willing (not happy about it but willing nonetheless) to give my W the "rush" by scaring the skirt off her. On occassion (every few years or so) this is what she NEEDS, and at bedrock I am a giver.
> 
> Sex is a means for achieving Apex intimacy. If you create too much intimacy/closeness before sex, what you accomplish with a request for sex is a surge of emotional claustrophobia. This is a guess, but an educated guess at that: Your W wants/needs you to give her the space to love you. THAT will create desire.
> 
> Deep sigh. In the spirit of being the "giver" I told my W I would leave her alone for as long as she liked and go find a playmate. Wjhile I am familiar with makeup sex, this was my first taste of hysterical bonding.....


With all due respect to Mem, some people don't get any sort of rush out of being scared. The sort of person who makes a point of avoiding rollercoasters, scary films and whatnot doesn't get a rush out of being scared. They get scared out of being scared. 

If your partner is this sort of person (male or female) trying to scare them into loving you could just as easily be biggest one-step resentment builder you could get your hands on.


----------



## This is me

Sawney Beane said:


> With all due respect to Mem, some people don't get any sort of rush out of being scared. The sort of person who makes a point of avoiding rollercoasters, scary films and whatnot doesn't get a rush out of being scared. They get scared out of being scared.
> 
> If your partner is this sort of person (male or female) trying to scare them into loving you could just as easily be biggest one-step resentment builder you could get your hands on.


I have to agree with this. No two people are the same and depending on the two people in the relationship the dynamics can be very different than another two people.

That being said, I believe there is some truth and basic behaviors that apply to most. As I mentioned, when I agreed to end it with her after she said she was done, it had the effect of making her step back and show the fear in losing me. Which brought her closer to me.

The first time she said the D word and after my melt down from the shock, I woke up and told her in a calm tone that if this is what she wants than I will agree to it. She then broke down was emotionally upset and asked me if I had checked out. I thought this was bizarre and actually showed she may not have been thinking straight, part of the fog. As she should have been happy I was agreeing with her.

Since this event has basically repeated three times now in different forms, it makes me wonder how to stop the cycle. We both obviously care and love each other or one of us would be gone by now. I have always been on board and ready to move forward with a loving caring relationship. She has times of loving caring and even hints about in the future if things work maybe we can...., but is always guarded. 

How can I help her break down this wall? I think the MC and the book DB repeat it is all about patience to let her sort it out.


----------



## MEM2020

This,
Each time she says: lets end it and you say "ok", she quickly says "I am not sure I want to" and you immediately say "neither do I". By immediately saying "neither do I" you continue to return 100 percent of the control to your very confused W. 

That approach has now failed 3 times. How many more do you need to realize it is not going to fix the issue. 





This is me said:


> I have to agree with this. No two people are the same and depending on the two people in the relationship the dynamics can be very different than another two people.
> 
> That being said, I believe there is some truth and basic behaviors that apply to most. As I mentioned, when I agreed to end it with her after she said she was done, it had the effect of making her step back and show the fear in losing me. Which brought her closer to me.
> 
> The first time she said the D word and after my melt down from the shock, I woke up and told her in a calm tone that if this is what she wants than I will agree to it. She then broke down was emotionally upset and asked me if I had checked out. I thought this was bizarre and actually showed she may not have been thinking straight, part of the fog. As she should have been happy I was agreeing with her.
> 
> Since this event has basically repeated three times now in different forms, it makes me wonder how to stop the cycle. We both obviously care and love each other or one of us would be gone by now. I have always been on board and ready to move forward with a loving caring relationship. She has times of loving caring and even hints about in the future if things work maybe we can...., but is always guarded.
> 
> How can I help her break down this wall? I think the MC and the book DB repeat it is all about patience to let her sort it out.


----------



## tacoma

Sawney Beane said:


> With all due respect to Mem, some people don't get any sort of rush out of being scared. The sort of person who makes a point of avoiding rollercoasters, scary films and whatnot doesn't get a rush out of being scared. They get scared out of being scared.
> 
> If your partner is this sort of person (male or female) trying to scare them into loving you could just as easily be biggest one-step resentment builder you could get your hands on.


I think you`re misunderstanding mem.

The rush isn`t in the fear, the rush comes from the idea of losing her lover or having him find someone better.

This kills a woman generally and almost always incites a serious week or so of hysterical bonding as she desperately tries to re-claim what she`s losing.

It`s a neat trick that never fails to work but it`s sad when it has to be done over and over again.

It`s always amazed me how one day a woman couldn`t possibly be more disinterested in her man and the next day when she`s seen some girl respond to his flirting she can`t ever imagine being without him to the point that she`ll become a porn star for a week or two.


----------



## MEM2020

Tacoma,
I think that is basically correct. 

Besides - if you tell me you want a divorce, and I agree and start the paperwork - you can get as angry as you want at me. But at some point I am going to tell you that your choices are to stop being batsh!t crazy or accept that we are done. 

This Is Me is creating a very strong "Plan B" template. Dangerous thing to do....



tacoma said:


> I think you`re misunderstanding mem.
> 
> The rush isn`t in the fear, the rush comes from the idea of losing her lover or having him find someone better.
> 
> This kills a woman generally and almost always incites a serious week or so of hysterical bonding as she desperately tries to re-claim what she`s losing.
> 
> It`s a neat trick that never fails to work but it`s sad when it has to be done over and over again.
> 
> It`s always amazed me how one day a woman couldn`t possibly be more disinterested in her man and the next day when she`s seen some girl respond to his flirting she can`t ever imagine being without him to the point that she`ll become a porn star for a week or two.


----------



## This is me

MEM11363 said:


> This Is Me is creating a very strong "Plan B" template. Dangerous thing to do....


Dangerous? I think filing out the divorce papers when things are moving in the right direction seems more dangerous if not stupid. Especially if I am actually trying to save the marriage not end it.

There is a time for pressing, but now is not the time. 

Don't we all seem to play better Texas holdem when it is phony money at stake rather than when it is our own actual cash? There is a reason for this and it has nothing to do with being smarter players.

Those same players lose more than they win, but it really does not matter to them.


----------



## MEM2020

This,
You know your W better than anyone else does. So the real question is this: Are you taking the current approach because you truly believe it maximizes the chance of a "healthy/loving" recon? If so, then great. If however you are following this path because you are afraid to draw a line in the sand that is not so good. You seem to be trending towards a very "low passion" recon where she returns more out of an absence of good alternatives than a true desire to be with you. 

As for the first cycle of "I want a divorce, "you: ok", her well maybe I don't". "You: Good lets try and make this work". 

OK that seems sane. But after 3 rounds of that - it seems unclear why you think that trying to produce "those feelings" by avoiding conflict is going to work. Maybe I am wrong but this whole - "apart for a year" + "we can go on dates but I am not going to have sex with you" sets up a recon that is closer to a room mate situation than a marriage. Something neither of you wants. 

As for my recommendations - they are based on real world experience. I have done exactly what I suggest. The main difference is that I have told my W if she wants to separate, we are quickly going to be in a "dating other people" mode because frankly I don't really grasp the concept of a long term separation unless someone has cheated or abused their partner. If my W wants to be "friends" not spouses - we can be friends - and that means she loses her right to: exclusive access to my body and my heart. 

I have a fairly lengthy thread describing what I did in response to ILYBIANILWY. It was calm, and fair and rational. It reversed the situation in 3 days. In hindsight I would take a different approach as I think there was a "lower impact" path to resolution that would have been nicer to her. But I didn't know then what I know now because she concealed that having sex was consistently painful for her. 





This is me said:


> Dangerous? I think filing out the divorce papers when things are moving in the right direction seems more dangerous if not stupid. Especially if I am actually trying to save the marriage not end it.
> 
> There is a time for pressing, but now is not the time.
> 
> Don't we all seem to play better Texas holdem when it is phony money at stake rather than when it is our own actual cash? There is a reason for this and it has nothing to do with being smarter players.
> 
> Those same players lose more than they win, but it really does not matter to them.


----------



## MEM2020

BTW: Do you have total transparency? Are you really certain she isn't seeing anyone? If so, why are you so sure? Her volatile behavior implies otherwise.




This is me said:


> Dangerous? I think filing out the divorce papers when things are moving in the right direction seems more dangerous if not stupid. Especially if I am actually trying to save the marriage not end it.
> 
> There is a time for pressing, but now is not the time.
> 
> Don't we all seem to play better Texas holdem when it is phony money at stake rather than when it is our own actual cash? There is a reason for this and it has nothing to do with being smarter players.
> 
> Those same players lose more than they win, but it really does not matter to them.


----------



## Sawney Beane

tacoma said:


> I think you`re misunderstanding mem.
> 
> The rush isn`t in the fear, the rush comes from the idea of losing her lover or having him find someone better.
> 
> This kills a woman generally and almost always incites a serious week or so of hysterical bonding as she desperately tries to re-claim what she`s losing.


Some people react to fear totally irrationally. They won't have an "oh sh1t I'd better sort this out and what if I lose them?" reaction, but a "f*ck you and the horse you rode in on, go down fighting and take you with me" response.


> It`s a neat trick that never fails to work but it`s sad when it has to be done over and over again.


I've seen the above happen, several times. I'm very wary of things that "never fail".


> It`s always amazed me how one day a woman couldn`t possibly be more disinterested in her man and the next day when she`s seen some girl respond to his flirting she can`t ever imagine being without him to the point that she`ll become a porn star for a week or two.


And if I had a quid for every time I'd seen a woman react not that way but by cutting him dead, shutting down sex and calling him a dirty cheating disloyal [email protected], I'd have a pile of money


----------



## AFEH

This is me said:


> Dangerous? I think filing out the divorce papers when things are moving in the right direction seems more dangerous if not stupid. Especially if I am actually trying to save the marriage not end it.
> 
> There is a time for pressing, but now is not the time.
> 
> Don't we all seem to play better Texas holdem when it is phony money at stake rather than when it is our own actual cash? There is a reason for this and it has nothing to do with being smarter players.
> 
> Those same players lose more than they win, but it really does not matter to them.


Sometimes you just have to call your wife’s hand to see if she is bluffing or not. The only way you will ever see her hand and find out if she is bluffing you or not is to enter the 180 and file for divorce and keep on going with the filing.


She may well go with you to the very end. At least then you will know that she wasn’t bluffing you.


Keep on doing what you are doing and she’s got you like a puppet on a string. It is you who has to cut that string such that she no longer manipulates the heck out of you.



It sounds to me that your wife is deeply emotionally confiding in at least one other person. And she is talking bad things about you with that other person. That other person has a tremendous amount of influence on her and that will be the reason she’s half in and half out with her marriage with you.

Cut her the slack. Tell her it’s not the way you wanted things to be but you wish her well. Then do the 180 and file for divorce. As to whether after you’ve called her hand she comes back to your table that will be her decision and the only way your marriage will ever work.




If you cannot afford to call your wife’s hand because of financial or other reasons then go on a mission of becoming totally independent and never again play a game you can't afford to play.


----------



## SomeLady

Has anyone heard of a wife giving this book to her husband?


----------



## This is me

MEM11363 said:


> This,
> You know your W better than anyone else does. So the real question is this: Are you taking the current approach because you truly believe it maximizes the chance of a "healthy/loving" recon? If so, then great. If however you are following this path because you are afraid to draw a line in the sand that is not so good. You seem to be trending towards a very "low passion" recon where she returns more out of an absence of good alternatives than a true desire to be with you.
> 
> As for the first cycle of "I want a divorce, "you: ok", her well maybe I don't". "You: Good lets try and make this work".
> 
> OK that seems sane. But after 3 rounds of that - it seems unclear why you think that trying to produce "those feelings" by avoiding conflict is going to work. Maybe I am wrong but this whole - "apart for a year" + "we can go on dates but I am not going to have sex with you" sets up a recon that is closer to a room mate situation than a marriage. Something neither of you wants.
> 
> As for my recommendations - they are based on real world experience. I have done exactly what I suggest. The main difference is that I have told my W if she wants to separate, we are quickly going to be in a "dating other people" mode because frankly I don't really grasp the concept of a long term separation unless someone has cheated or abused their partner. If my W wants to be "friends" not spouses - we can be friends - and that means she loses her right to: exclusive access to my body and my heart.
> 
> I have a fairly lengthy thread describing what I did in response to ILYBIANILWY. It was calm, and fair and rational. It reversed the situation in 3 days. In hindsight I would take a different approach as I think there was a "lower impact" path to resolution that would have been nicer to her. But I didn't know then what I know now because she concealed that having sex was consistently painful for her.


Yes my current approach is what I believe will give us the best chance for saving the marriage and return to a healthy loving relationship. I have already drawn the line in the sand which helped us move out of no sleep over limboland, which never gave us the chance to work on it. She is now on board as in part taking credit for it. Whatever, we are spending more time together which is a step towards full time.

This weekend we will be addressing initmacy in MC. She declined the offer two weekends ago but stated we need to take steps, which to me she is saying she wants to, but needs to get there mentally. Hopefully MC will help us figure out a path for her. Lower impact approach. 

BTW she has had issues with pain and will be having surgery next month.


----------



## This is me

AFEH said:


> Sometimes you just have to call your wife’s hand to see if she is bluffing or not. The only way you will ever see her hand and find out if she is bluffing you or not is to enter the 180 and file for divorce and keep on going with the filing.
> 
> 
> She may well go with you to the very end. At least then you will know that she wasn’t bluffing you.
> 
> 
> Keep on doing what you are doing and she’s got you like a puppet on a string. It is you who has to cut that string such that she no longer manipulates the heck out of you.
> 
> 
> 
> It sounds to me that your wife is deeply emotionally confiding in at least one other person. And she is talking bad things about you with that other person. That other person has a tremendous amount of influence on her and that will be the reason she’s half in and half out with her marriage with you.
> 
> Cut her the slack. Tell her it’s not the way you wanted things to be but you wish her well. Then do the 180 and file for divorce. As to whether after you’ve called her hand she comes back to your table that will be her decision and the only way your marriage will ever work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you cannot afford to call your wife’s hand because of financial or other reasons then go on a mission of becoming totally independent and never again play a game you can't afford to play.


I have called her bluff twice and that is why we are still at it. I think we both know she can not do this anymore. Since we are both dedicated to MC it is we are moving forward or onward.

Regarding the other person. I am pretty sure I know who it is. Her sister, who is a coworker also. This older sister is a terrible relationship role model who will never get married and has gone through many boyfriends of dramatic age (plus or minus 20 years) differences for many years.

My W said the D word right around the same time this sister dumped another few year relationship boyfriend. My W helped her move her stuff out and guess who showed up at our door the day I got the news. You guessed it.

There is alot more about the sisters history that points to her being a problem, but the one thing I will never forget was the day I heard she was going to be working with my W was the same day I had the thought that this will not be good for my marriage. I was right.


----------



## AFEH

This is me said:


> I have called her bluff twice and that is why we are still at it. I think we both know she can not do this anymore. Since we are both dedicated to MC it is we are moving forward or onward.
> 
> Regarding the other person. I am pretty sure I know who it is. Her sister, who is a coworker also. This older sister is a terrible relationship role model who will never get married and has gone through many boyfriends of dramatic age (plus or minus 20 years) differences for many years.
> 
> My W said the D word right around the same time this sister dumped another few year relationship boyfriend. My W helped her move her stuff out and guess who showed up at our door the day I got the news. You guessed it.
> 
> There is alot more about the sisters history that points to her being a problem, but the one thing I will never forget was the day I heard she was going to be working with my W was the same day I had the thought that this will not be good for my marriage. I was right.


That elder sister influence will have been with your wife for as long as your wife has lived. You might want to think about that and the implications it has for a while.




The bad influence on my wife is my younger son, he’s now in his late 30s. I always suspected the influence but didn’t truly discover the depth of it until we’d separated and I spied on their communications. The things he was saying about me to my wife were totally untrue but my wife put up only a little in my defence. And it got such that my wife was telling things to my son which were again untrue. It was like a feeding frenzy.




I have since discovered that my son has a form of schizophrenia, the essence of which is that they make things up, that they are truly deluded in what they believe. Schizophrenia is also in my wife’s family, it has the most tragic of consequences.

While knowing this now it’s not very comforting. I wish I could help my wife and son but I’m not empowered to do so. They have to seek help and I have no hope they’ll do so.




In some way you have to get your sister-in-law out of your marriage. But that really is your wife’s job and she may only ever do it if you make it a “It’s her or me” choice for your wife to make. Because for sure your marriage will not improve while your SIL is right there in it. Your wife will always be half way in and half way out. Fifty:fifty and that never works.


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## This is me

AFEH, That is the big delema. I remember early in the marriage admiring how my wife was smarter than this older sister in relationships and seeing enough distance that she was not influenced, but then the realization when my wife got her the job that this was not going to be good for us.

Since they now spend most of the day together and having witnessed some of the damaging email exchanges, it is a situation that may be the end all. There is no way to seperate the two from work time and since they are sisters it is double trouble.

Since the SIL has no stake in the relationship and actual gained more companion time with my wife, plus seems to like the break-up drama, it is a tough battle to win.

I have shared this concern with her and the MC but it seems to have been brushed off as not that important to our situation. Of course with the wife, it is me that needs to change.

Like in your situation some untruths and rewritten history have been made that have fed on itself from the one-sided conversations. Hard to defend.

I think this whole issue will be a later issue to be dealt with after seeing if her full love can return first. If not, no point.


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## This is me

AFEH what does that stand for? Always wondered.


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## This is me

I know this thread is about the book, but since my situation was addressed thought I would give a link to a new thread....

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/reconciliation-stories/40756-she-moving-back-home.html#post605073


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