# Talking Things to Death?



## KiwiTeawi

In terms of getting upset and angry about things my husband and I greatly vary. I am more passive and wait until I feel calm before I make a decision on what to do or what to say if a person was the cause. My husband has the tendency to easily get angry and when he does it is a predictable cycle. He will overreact irrationally and bring up every little thing that has bothered him past and present, say things he doesn't mean, calm down a bit, overreact again, and then finally by the next day or two days later he will be officially calm. However after the fact, he has a tendency to talk about what made him angry to death and then the day after and sometimes even one random day the week after.

Is there even such thing as talking about something to death in a marriage? 

If so, how do I deal with it? The fact that he cannot let things go and the way he gets ridiculously irrational does affect our marriage and sadly our relationships with other people. My first reaction when he is on that first stage of being angry is to give him space after a while of hearing him go on and on and on, but he gets so upset when I do that even when I tell him if I don't walk away I'm going to explode myself. Other times if I leave him alone for a bit, he gets worse. I sometimes wish he would talk to somebody professionally, but he refuses.


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## MattMatt

Would he be willing to give a relaxation CD a go?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Spotthedeaddog

KiwiTeawi said:


> In terms of getting upset and angry about things my husband and I greatly vary. I am more passive and wait until I feel calm before I make a decision on what to do or what to say if a person was the cause. My husband has the tendency to easily get angry and when he does it is a predictable cycle. He will overreact irrationally and bring up every little thing that has bothered him past and present, say things he doesn't mean, calm down a bit, overreact again, and then finally by the next day or two days later he will be officially calm. However after the fact, he has a tendency to talk about what made him angry to death and then the day after and sometimes even one random day the week after.
> 
> Is there even such thing as talking about something to death in a marriage?
> 
> If so, how do I deal with it? The fact that he cannot let things go and the way he gets ridiculously irrational does affect our marriage and sadly our relationships with other people. My first reaction when he is on that first stage of being angry is to give him space after a while of hearing him go on and on and on, but he gets so upset when I do that even when I tell him if I don't walk away I'm going to explode myself. Other times if I leave him alone for a bit, he gets worse. I sometimes wish he would talk to somebody professionally, but he refuses.



Your "giving him space" actually translates into "I don't care about the problem or your opinion".

Likely his anger is the only tool he has to effectually dealing with obstacles. Very common in NZ where not all males have been emasculated (yet).

He keeps bringing it up, because he's still living in that mental space and time, and its dragging at his focus. The stuff he brings up is because his emotional state puts him in a mental space within that dark shadow space in his mind, and he hasn't any good way to overcome his obstacles. And if you are in NZ, where "gentrified poverty" is a very real thing that's not surprising revelation, resulting in a very frustrating life for a person who wants to look after themselves and progress their family....that frustration (and lack of funds) tends to mean its difficult to find pleasant things to focus on when one is expected to do the majority of the supporting.

This goes double if he has Libra in his sun/moon/ascending signs.


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## EleGirl

In a marriage, a couple should be able to talk about anything and work through it.

However, it does sound like your husband is going beyond what is emotionally health. He needs to learn some coping skills that allow him to let go of things. One of the biggest indicators of a marriage failing is a spouse who hangs on to things like he does. I've heard it called 'stamp collecting." It's when a person collects transgressions. And when it suits them they take out the proverbial "stamp" collection book and have to fuss over every "stamp" in the book.

Nothing gets resolved with a person who does this. The "stamp" collection just grows.

can you get him to go into marriage counseling with him and maybe get the counselor to teach him some coping skilling?


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## Spotthedeaddog

EleGirl said:


> In a marriage, a couple should be able to talk about anything and work through it.
> 
> However, it does sound like your husband is going beyond what is emotionally health. He needs to learn some coping skills that allow him to let go of things. One of the biggest indicators of a marriage failing is a spouse who hangs on to things like he does. I've heard it called 'stamp collecting." It's when a person collects transgressions. And when it suits them they take out the proverbial "stamp" collection book and have to fuss over every "stamp" in the book.
> 
> Nothing gets resolved with a person who does this. The "stamp" collection just grows.
> 
> can you get him to go into marriage counseling with him and maybe get the counselor to teach him some coping skilling?


That's a bit of a blame game approach Elle, and if he's in NZ (Kiwi land) they won't find many good counsellors who can teach coping skills. Most are behaviourialists who will "identify his behaviour as a problem" and tell him "he must modify it" by "learning to be calmer".
Which will annoy the s... out of him!!
Better to help OP find what triggers are and enable improvement before going to counsellor.


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## KiwiTeawi

Thanks so much for the feedback!

My husband loves music and we actually do own a relaxation CD that came with a spa gift years back, but he is a bit stubborn and won't listen to it or go to counseling of any kind. Whenever I suggested counseling for us, he just rolls his eyes about it and says marriage counseling is only for people on the brink of a divorce.

As for his triggers, sadly it can be anything stemming from change to disappointment to not understanding something. He was not always like this, but I noticed as he aged he just could not handle things well anymore and then finally three years ago that whenever he became upset it became a major production. I only go into another room after he carries on for forty-minutes straight after trying to calm him down and talk things through with him.


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## norajane

> Whenever I suggested counseling for us, he just rolls his eyes about it and says marriage counseling is only for people on the brink of a divorce.


Tell him it's too late for counseling then. Now is the time, before it's too late.


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## SunCMars

KiwiTeawi said:


> In terms of getting upset and angry about things my husband and I greatly vary. I am more passive and wait until I feel calm before I make a decision on what to do or what to say if a person was the cause. My husband has the tendency to easily get angry and when he does it is a predictable cycle. He will overreact irrationally and bring up every little thing that has bothered him past and present, say things he doesn't mean, calm down a bit, overreact again, and then finally by the next day or two days later he will be officially calm. However after the fact, he has a tendency to talk about what made him angry to death and then the day after and sometimes even one random day the week after.
> 
> Is there even such thing as talking about something to death in a marriage?
> 
> If so, how do I deal with it? The fact that he cannot let things go and the way he gets ridiculously irrational does affect our marriage and sadly our relationships with other people. My first reaction when he is on that first stage of being angry is to give him space after a while of hearing him go on and on and on, but he gets so upset when I do that even when I tell him if I don't walk away I'm going to explode myself. Other times if I leave him alone for a bit, he gets worse. I sometimes wish he would talk to somebody professionally, but he refuses.


My wife is like your husband.

She wears her heart on her sleeve, When angry, rationality is thrown out the window. She rages on until something "else" distracts her.

And she never forgets a slight or insult.

I am not a passive person [as you are].

Early in the marriage I simply tolerated this behavior. I was much more resilient then. I did not take her explosive outbursts seriously or personally.

This was a mistake.

Now, when she has a meltdown, I wait a minute or two and then I explode telling her that I am not her punching bag. I pretty much put her in her place.

Nothing physical, ever.

This works. She wants me to react...not be a potatohead, not a cold fish.

The women wants a real....and alive, reactive partner.

Fight back...loud and hard...then report back to us.


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## Spicy

You may have half the battle already won here...you can clearly detect his patterns and the way he responds to situations. True, it's different than how you would react, but you are different people, so that is to be expected. 

If he is conscious of how his reactions affect you negatively, hopefully he will continue to work on improving. On the flip side, consider trying to work on being willing to accept him and his imperfections as the person he is also.


Maybe then you can meet in the middle, and both feel the relief of some improvement. I wish you the best!


Ciao,
Spicy


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## MattMatt

Could you offer him a neck and shoulder rub?

Or get one of those head massage things?

Or could you distract him?

Do something outrageous? 

Like...

Whip your breasts out and shout "Now you really HAVE gotten on my t*ts! What are YOU going to do to make it up to them?"

He is a passionate man. Praise him for his passion.

Sing his favourite song?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DustyDog

KiwiTeawi said:


> In terms of getting upset and angry about things my husband and I greatly vary. I am more passive and wait until I feel calm before I make a decision on what to do or what to say if a person was the cause. My husband has the tendency to easily get angry and when he does it is a predictable cycle. He will overreact irrationally and bring up every little thing that has bothered him past and present, say things he doesn't mean, calm down a bit, overreact again, and then finally by the next day or two days later he will be officially calm. However after the fact, he has a tendency to talk about what made him angry to death and then the day after and sometimes even one random day the week after.
> 
> Is there even such thing as talking about something to death in a marriage?
> 
> If so, how do I deal with it? The fact that he cannot let things go and the way he gets ridiculously irrational does affect our marriage and sadly our relationships with other people. My first reaction when he is on that first stage of being angry is to give him space after a while of hearing him go on and on and on, but he gets so upset when I do that even when I tell him if I don't walk away I'm going to explode myself. Other times if I leave him alone for a bit, he gets worse. I sometimes wish he would talk to somebody professionally, but he refuses.


In the view of this armchair observer:

If he talks about it day after day, then *there's some kind of resolution he wants, but isn't getting.
*
Before elaborating on what comes after that, let me present an* interesting view on ange*r:

Many years ago, I audited a substance abuse remediation group, as part of my college education. I forget the name, but this program, rather than focusing on the substance abuse, focused on building healthy relationships and a flourishing social circle. A good bit of the time was spent evaluating each person's current methods of relating to others, with the purpose of creating intentional and hopefully long-lasting change.

Anger was brought up and given extensive coverage. The course creators and the facilitator were adamant that anger is unique to humans...animals don't experience it. An animal attacks to protect their young, to eat, to protect themselves but those are self-preservation methods, not anger.

The claim was made that *humans get angry because we can and do remember past hurts* and they build and build. And, *when anger occurs, it's because we are experiencing something that forms a repeated and undesirable pattern *in our lives, and we actually experience fear - fear that this problem will never go away, which then leads to feelings of claustrophobia: "Let me get the h*** out of here!".

In short, they claimed that *anger is* not a primary emotion, but *a secondary emotion*. And, the way to resolve it isn't to deal with the anger directly, but instead, to *identify the underlying negative feelings* and figure out how to resolve them or their causes.

When I heard this, I instantly recognized that for me, it was true. Might not be true in all cases, but I've had chats about this with pals and so far, they all say it fits them too.

How about your husband? What's the repeated thing that might lead to this anger?

Anyway, back to *the resolution your husband wants but is not getting*.

Again, in just my view, I see two possible paths:

- The resolution he seeks is reasonable.
- The resolution he seeks is unrealistic.

What kinds of resolutions might be reasonable? If he thinks you said something that hurt him, and the resolution he wants is nothing more than you saying "I'm sorry you felt hurt when I said that". Seems reasonable to me...that exact phrase isn't admitting guilt, but it's acknowledging that his feelings, like all feelings, are real. I have no clue what the actual initiating event is, but with this line of thought, maybe you can consider events and figure it out.

What is unreasonable? Any expectation that someone else needs to change for his happiness. That's the whole point of my sig line. Do yourself a favor and find all the free stuff online by Byron Katie and her outstanding (and short!) "Little Book" called "The Work".

In summary, what's said there is:
* There is reality. There are your thoughts. They are not the same. Every human being filters what we see, hear, read, etc, through a belief system built up over time, that prohibits us from seeing reality accurately.
* Reality is always correct...what's out there is what's out there. 
* Here's the hard-to-swallow part that Byron Katie expands upon: If you feel suffering, it is because you believe your thoughts are more correct than reality.

I would say read it for yourself, then exclaim to hubs "I found this awesome free little book". 

That's how you deal with the unreasonable...HE has to see it as unreasonable.

An example I have to live with:
My wife's general approach to everything is fear. Fear of driving, fear of eating, fear of...oh, does she like to buy insurance, and when selecting a car, it's an 8 year process because she fears making a decision that isn't perfect. Perfectionism and fear go hand in hand.

The communications style exhibited by such people is dead silence, any time a discussion gets touchy. If I express, no matter how gently, that I would have preferred she do something else - like consult me before selling $200,000 in stock to pay off the mortgage, which resulted in a nasty tax hit - she goes silent. Dead silent. John Gottman calls this "stonewalling" and lists it as the worst communications habit one can have - arguing is better, at least there's the chance of progress.

Well, she's read Gottman, our counselor has told her in words she accepted that "your husband wants to learn how to work with you in ways that are more comfortable for you. But when you go silent, you are not giving him anything to work with. How can you help?" But...no change.

So, where was I suffering? I believed she could and would change. But that's my thought arguing with ... well, what reality probably is. Truth is, I have no idea if she can or will, but I have to be OK with the possibility that she can't or won't. Of course, the part of me that suffered over her making financial decisions without asking is still wanting help...and the way to deal with that is to care a lot less about money...it's her fear anyway, not mine...and for the money that matters, put it only in my name.

You have to figure solutions that work for you, of course, but I'm thinking you could get useful perspective by studying those two things:

1) Where is this anger coming from? What are the repeating unpleasant things that happen to cause initial upset, which gets repeated, finally leading to anger

and 

2) What are husband's unfulfilled expectations? If reasonable, satisfy them, if unreasonable, try to get him to learn about the business stuff - The Work by Katie.


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## SunCMars

DustyDog said:


> *An animal attacks to protect their young, to eat, to protect themselves but those are self-preservation methods, not anger.
> 
> *The claim was made that *humans get angry because we can and do remember past hurts* and they build and build. underlying negative feelings[/B] and figure out how to resolve them or their causes.
> 
> When I heard this, I instantly recognized* that for me, it was true.* Might not be true in all cases, but I've had chats about this with pals and so far, they all say it fits them too.


This was a thoughtful post. Thanks.

Here comes the *BUT!*

Animals have vicious tempers.

Your avatar is DustyDog. Have you not had run-ins with Cats.
They have a vicious temper. Rub them the wrong way or do something that they find offensive....watch out... get your inoculation for Cat Scratch Fever.

Some of the other animals famous for being aggressive and can have bad tempers:

Male Buffalos
Rhinos
Hippos
Wolverines and other Weasel family members
Pit Bulls, Dobermans, etc.
Elephants....and they never forget!
Sydney Funnel-web Spiders
Big Cats....most cats! 
Chimpanzees
Grizzlies
Bulls
Animals in heat

And many others.


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## DustyDog

SunCMars said:


> This was a thoughtful post. Thanks.
> 
> Here comes the *BUT!*
> 
> Animals have vicious tempers.
> 
> Your avatar is DustyDog. Have you not had run-ins with Cats.
> They have a vicious temper. Rub them the wrong way or do something that they find offensive....watch out... get your inoculation for Cat Scratch Fever.
> 
> Some of the other animals famous for being aggressive and can have bad tempers:
> 
> Male Buffalos
> Rhinos
> Hippos
> Wolverines and other Weasel family members
> Pit Bulls, Dobermans, etc.
> Elephants....and they never forget!
> Sydney Funnel-web Spiders
> Big Cats....most cats!
> Chimpanzees
> Grizzlies
> Bulls
> Animals in heat
> 
> And many others.


I have worked with lots of dogs...dog rescue.

Yes, there are dogs and I'm sure other animals with aggressive behavior.

Is it anger?

How to tell - anger, once acted upon - does not go away. No more than expressing love by deeds gets rid of love, does the expression of anger by vigorous or violent acts get rid of anger.

But, if the violent behavior is to protect something - one's self, one's offspring, one's food source, the herd or even the entire species - then once the risk has been dispatched, the violent subsides.

A classic case that I see all the time is in small dogs, who are sometimes aggressive as soon as they see a child.

I don't know every individual dog's story, of course, but I have seen this develop and thus, it's possible this is true most of the time.

Dogs have a very deep instinctual set of communications signals that say "back off, calm down, go away, I'm not digging this".

Early phases:
Look away from intruder
Move from standing to sitting position
Hang head
Lie down

Middle phases:
Gaze directly at intruder
Go from sitting to standing
Lick lips

On the verge of attack:
Fur stands up on back
Curl lips, snarl, growl
Frontal crouch, ready to spring

When with their own species, dogs go through this sequence as just that - a sequence. 

But a young human child recognizes none of these signs and just keeps charging the animal. A 5 pound dog is usually injured when handled by a 3-6 year old who doesn't realize how fragile such a dog is. So, the small dog learns that: #1) Young children cause pain and #2) They don't read warning signs. The dog, therefore, in self-defense, only knows how to go from passive to attack instantly.

BTW, so far, the Pit Bulls I've known have been mellow...perhaps thats why they ended up as rescue dogs, because the owners wanted protection and didn't get it 

Dobies are often used as police dogs because they can very easily be trained to be docile or dominant upon command...aggression is not inherent unless one encourages it, or does not discourage it.

Cats sometimes use their claws and teeth in play. I've spent hours watching two cats tussle around on a floor, using their claws on each other...not drawing blood, but just grabbing enough fur that the other cat knows "I got grabbed", and leaving plenty of saliva on each other. Makes sense for cats to play so rough, since they are of a predator species that hunts alone - the hunter's instincts and tools need practice. When I've been smacked and bled by a cat, the motion made by the cat has been no different than when I see them playing with each other. The cat was not being aggressive..this was not anger, it was play.

Don't know about the wild animals, though...I would expect if you were able to observe said animals from birth, you'd see that some circumstance or training taught them that a situation was risky/dangerous, and that's what makes them aggressive...not the same as anger. Protectionism.


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## SimplyAmorous

DustyDog said:


> *How about your husband? What's the repeated thing that might lead to this anger?
> 
> Anyway, back to the resolution your husband wants but is not getting.
> 
> Again, in just my view, I see two possible paths:
> 
> - The resolution he seeks is reasonable.
> - The resolution he seeks is unrealistic.*
> 
> *What kinds of resolutions might be reasonable?* If he thinks you said something that hurt him, and the resolution he wants is nothing more than you saying "I'm sorry you felt hurt when I said that". Seems reasonable to me...that exact phrase isn't admitting guilt, but it's acknowledging that his feelings, like all feelings, are real. I have no clue what the actual initiating event is, but with this line of thought, maybe you can consider events and figure it out.
> 
> *What is unreasonable? * Any expectation that someone else needs to change for his happiness. That's the whole point of my sig line. Do yourself a favor and find all the free stuff online by Byron Katie and her outstanding (and short!) "Little Book" called "The Work".
> 
> ...
> 
> 1) Where is this anger coming from? What are the repeating unpleasant things that happen to cause initial upset, which gets repeated, finally leading to anger
> 
> and
> 
> 2) *What are husband's unfulfilled expectations? If reasonable, satisfy them*, if unreasonable, try to get him to learn about the business stuff - The Work by Katie.


 This is what I would want to figure out.. are you & he able to discuss openly & vulnerably where you are.. what you need/ desire from each other? You need a healthier "give & take" in this area ..for sure.

Would you mind sharing what is a trigger for him, what he keeps harping on.. or is it a # of things?? ... its obviously something *"unresolved" *TO HIM.. 

Or is he a man who is just never satisfied and has some need to complain over everything .... even if you managed to do what he wants.. he'd find something else to harp on.. not showing appreciation for meeting him half way ?

Just trying to understand better what is going on... 

His refusing to seek counseling.. it's not painting a very good picture of him though..


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## john117

In three weeks we are having a few friends for dinner (a very rare occasion). Every aspect of the dinner menu has been up for discussion for hours at a time... 

So, yea. It's been talked to death, reincarnation, and back several times already... And will be. To the trained eye it's simply a demonstration of how two people have lost any kind of emotional connection if it takes many hours of deliberation to agree on what recipe to use for Baba Ganoush...


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## DustyDog

KiwiTeawi said:


> My husband loves music and we actually do own a relaxation CD that came with a spa gift years back, but he is a bit stubborn and won't listen to it or go to counseling of any kind. Whenever I suggested counseling for us, he just rolls his eyes about it and says marriage counseling is only for people on the brink of a divorce.


I'm sensing a theme here, but I could easily be wrong. You refer to him as stubborn and you have mentioned in several posts that you have suggested, requested, and so on.

When you evaluate the conversations you start with your husband, what proportion of them involve you making a request? If he perceives that the only reason you initiate conversation is to get him to do or say something, then there are actions you can take to improve his receptiveness. Consider initiating conversations that are only about you thanking him for who he is, his values, his contributions to the marriage. 

Gottman talks about the ratio of positive to negative in conversation and claims that 5:1 is magic. If, in conversation, there are five times as many positive things compared to negative, then the marriage is a sure bet to survive long-haul.

Gottman calls this "Positive Sentiment Override". A couple can do fine, even with incredibly volatile arguments, as long as they comprise only 16% (one part argument to five parts positive) of the total conversation the couple has.

On the other end, how much negativity almost guarantees divorce? A ratio of 0.8 positive to negative. So, if you spend 10 hours talking and praising one another, and 12 hours dealing with "issues" (and to some people, being asked to comply with yet another request could be an issue), you're on the edge of not staying together.


I'm not saying you do this - certainly in a forum like this, you're going to focus your words on what's not working. But it may be worth some thought.

Gottman also give some pretty detailed suggestions on how to approach disagreements without them going wrong. He has a concise list of what to not do, which he calls "The Four Horsemen of The Apocalypes"...do a web search on his name and that phrase and you'll find them.

Make sure you understand what he interprets as negative. I'll give an example from my own marriage. My wife has an astonishingly high level of anxiety about money...we are approaching retirement and there's plenty of money, but she's got some deep-rooted fear that we've missed something, and so have all the financial advisors we've consulted who said "no worries." 

I was not aware of this deep-rooted fear, all I saw was that she brought up spending a LOT, and there was fear in her face and somehow I was expected to do something about it. My mind even went to the exact phrase you used - this has been talked to death! No conversation leaves us in a different spot than we were before and she's clearly in pain when she brings it up, so why not just stop it? So, to me, it's negative, but to her, it's a genuine concern...she's not addressing it in any way, but somehow it brings her satisfaction to bring it up repeatedly using the same words every time with tears in her eyes. Now, I just try to sit back and listen and see if there's anything new...to me, it is still a negative, but knowing where it comes from, I'm a lot softer in my approach to it.

Good luck!


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## DustyDog

KiwiTeawi said:


> Whenever I suggested counseling for us, he just rolls his eyes about it and says marriage counseling is only for people on the brink of a divorce.


Forgot to mention...statistically, he's onto something.

But it's not because counseling leads to divorce. It's because so many couples don't go to counseling until it's too late.

You may consider a response. "Darling, I don't want to be on the brink of divorce, I want help before it's too late." If he responds better with more forceful words "Darling, if this doesn't get better, I think we are on the brink". Don't forget to make it plainly clear that you know you have something to do with it, and you hope an outsider will help both of you see your roles. Make it about "we", if possible.


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