# Sex, given or earned?



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

As an attempt not to hijack the respect thread, I thought I would make this one and ask this question...

When your married, should sex be given or earned?


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

katiecrna said:


> As an attempt not to hijack the respect thread, I thought I would make this one and ask this question...
> 
> When your married, should sex be given or earned?


given. it is always earned by tying the knot. it is part of your vows (typically anyway). It can be un-earned or forfeit do to being a jerk or abusive or cheating or what not.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> As an attempt not to hijack the respect thread, I thought I would make this one and ask this question...
> 
> When your married, should sex be given or earned?


Neither. I think it should be a shared joy, a passion, a desire to bond more closely, on both people's parts.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Good comments both. Some earning has taken place already, or the union should never be joined in the first place. After that it should be the output of shared joy and desire to bond. 

The latter still sounds more like "given" to me


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

I wonder if people's answers differ between sexes.

To me, it's more earned than given. Not that I use sex to manipulate but because I'm not in the mood unless certain things happen or don't happen.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Because for me personally I am led by my feelings a lot of the time. I'm emotional and things effect me more than I would like.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

Shared. Should love be earned or given? Should happiness be earned or given? Those are things you either share or you don't. Intimacy should transcend all petty issues.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

To me, it's a given that sex is given and/or shared. If I have to earn it, that turns my wife into a prostitute.

Of course, this assumes that both are treating each other lovingly, with kindness and respect in general. Lack of those things may block the sharing. Then, you may have to _earn back trust_, but not sex. Sex will follow naturally (well, unless you're in one of those toxic, mismatched libido relationships).


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

katiecrna said:


> As an attempt not to hijack the respect thread, I thought I would make this one and ask this question...
> 
> When your married, should sex be given or earned?


Neither. It should be something both enjoy. For lack of a better description...it should be like a hobby both look forward to enjoying. It is mutual.


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## MovingForward (Jan 19, 2017)

It should be something you both mutually want with each other an never used as reward or withheld as a punishment it can never end well if that happens and will just build resentment


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

Definitely shared and given. I give myself with love and we share our loving making. I am sure my H gives himself to me. 

He does not have to do anything to earn sex. In a loving, respectful marriage, you share. You want to give and receive.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> I wonder if people's answers differ between sexes.
> 
> To me, it's more earned than given. Not that I use sex to manipulate but because I'm not in the mood unless certain things happen or don't happen.


You are using sex as a reward.Therefore if you don't think your husband has "earned" the prize of having sex with you for whatever reason,you withdraw privileges.This is manipulation.If your husband did the same how would you feel.
A lot of women and indeed men think that sex is something that the woman gives or refuses and the man is supposed to be grateful if he gets his end away every so often.My attitude is this,when I have sex with my gf we both enjoy it and I make damn sure her needs are taken care of and she returns the favour.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

brooklynAnn said:


> In a loving, respectful marriage, you share. You want to give and receive.


Brilliant in its simplicity. Perfectly summed up in a single, short sentence.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> You are using sex as a reward.Therefore if you don't think your husband has "earned" the prize of having sex with you for whatever reason,you withdraw privileges.This is manipulation.If your husband did the same how would you feel.
> 
> A lot of women and indeed men think that sex is something that the woman gives or refuses and the man is supposed to be grateful if he gets his end away every so often.My attitude is this,when I have sex with my gf we both enjoy it and I make damn sure her needs are taken care of and she returns the favour.




I just don't see it that way at all. I understand what your saying but to me I need to want to have sex. And for me to want to have be sex... we can't be fighting, or distant, or whatever. I love sex, when I'm in the mood I initiate which is often. But when I'm not in the mood and my husband comes home and doesn't spend any quality time with me and is like hey wanna have sex? The answer is always no. But take that same scenario, if he comes home late and gets in bed with me and cuddles me and whispers some sweet nothings in my ear the chances of me having sex is way higher. 

To me it's not "earned" in the sense of rewarding positive behavior from him, it's "earned" in the sense that I need to FEEL in the mood to help Sex, and he can get me in the mood or he can repel that mood.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

It definitely should be given. As others have said , it's part of the marriage vows, that you are giving yourselves to each other. Make you work for something that technically is already yours, in my opinion, is just not right.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> I just don't see it that way at all. I understand what your saying but to me I need to want to have sex. And for me to want to have be sex... we can't be fighting, or distant, or whatever. I love sex, when I'm in the mood I initiate which is often. But when I'm not in the mood and my husband comes home and doesn't spend any quality time with me and is like hey wanna have sex? The answer is always no. But take that same scenario, if he comes home late and gets in bed with me and cuddles me and whispers some sweet nothings in my ear the chances of me having sex is way higher.
> 
> To me it's not "earned" in the sense of rewarding positive behavior from him, it's "earned" in the sense that I need to FEEL in the mood to help Sex, and he can get me in the mood or he can repel that mood.


I don't mean to be flippant but what you are saying is it's all about you.When your husband wants sex if you are not in the right mood then it's not going to happen.But when you are in the mood how would you feel if he just turned round and went to sleep because of some real or imagined difference of opinion.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Sex in a marriage is a loving, unselfishly natural, physiological/psychological act that should be both bestowed upon and received from ones spouse without evasion, fear, or mental reservation ~ and never, ever should be treated or construed, in any form, as "a humanly gift,"  per se!

It was never meant as something that should be earned, deserved, or used as some kind of bargaining chip, but rather lovingly and unselfishly given!

Whoever refers to sex as a gift to their spouse, IMHO, is insensitive and most ill-advised. 

Sex can only be described as a loving gift bestowed upon the vast majority of us by the Heavenly Father!*


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

For me, sex is wrapped up in emotions and self esteem, and my mood and other things. Therefore there are many factors that are involved. It's not like... ok my husband wants sex so I will have sex now. It's more complicated than that. I'm not a switch that can be turned on and off. 

Same with men. Mens sex is wrapped up in their ego and visual attraction for their spouse and other things. 

Sometimes men can't get an erection. Sometimes I can't get wet. When I can't get wet it's because I'm not in the mood. Why aren't I in the mood? There are many reasons for this, and my husband actions/behavior is one of them.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Ideally shared - something a couple does together that they both enjoy. 

Sometimes given is good too if it is done along with sometimes sharing, and both giving at different times. A "gift" of some sexual act just to please your partner can be a wonderful thing.

Earned - never. As soon as sex as seen as a commodity, it becomes unbalanced, who is giving sex to who? Or are you sort of prostituting yourself, "selling" sex in return for chores? Also the market value can change, which is confusing all around. If he takes you out for dinner, does he *expect* sex in return?

But, it does need to be *deserved* in the sense that in a marriage, each partner should be loving and caring, attentive etc. and if those are missing then its reasonable for sex to be missing as well.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

jb02157 said:


> It definitely should be given. As others have said , it's part of the marriage vows, that you are giving yourselves to each other. Make you work for something that technically is already yours, in my opinion, is just not right.




I disagree with this. Your wife isn't yours. You don't own her. She is her own person with thoughts and feelings and they should matter.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> I don't mean to be flippant but what you are saying is it's all about you.When your husband wants sex if you are not in the right mood then it's not going to happen.But when you are in the mood how would you feel if he just turned round and went to sleep because of some real or imagined difference of opinion.




When my husband isn't in the mood then sex is unable to take place. If I'm not in the mood it's the same thing.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

uhtred said:


> Ideally shared - something a couple does together that they both enjoy.
> 
> Sometimes given is good too if it is done along with sometimes sharing, and both giving at different times. A "gift" of some sexual act just to please your partner can be a wonderful thing.
> 
> ...


I very much like your distinction between "earned" and "deserved." Very clarifying.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Have you been in the position of wanting sex with your husband and his just saying no? Not his being unable to have an erection or something, but his just preferring not to because he isn't in the mood?

Please understand, I'm trying to word this question in a non-hostile way, its just that I think its something that some people have never experienced. Not once in 30 years have I told my wife "I don't feel like sex now" - unless there was some real physical reason. 

You may have had this happen a lot, I don't remember all your previous posts. 






katiecrna said:


> For me, sex is wrapped up in emotions and self esteem, and my mood and other things. Therefore there are many factors that are involved. It's not like... ok my husband wants sex so I will have sex now. It's more complicated than that. I'm not a switch that can be turned on and off.
> 
> Same with men. Mens sex is wrapped up in their ego and visual attraction for their spouse and other things.
> 
> Sometimes men can't get an erection. Sometimes I can't get wet. When I can't get wet it's because I'm not in the mood. Why aren't I in the mood? There are many reasons for this, and my husband actions/behavior is one of them.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

katiecrna said:


> I disagree with this. Your wife isn't yours. You don't own her. She is her own person with thoughts and feelings and they should matter.


Oh, I am definitely "hers" from head to toe in body and soul. If I wasn't, she wouldn't (to put it in your terms) feel like having sex with me. Nothing wrong with this--this is two people opening up to each other, being vulnerable, available, and ultimately connected in the strongest way possible. 

With each passing post, what you say sounds more transactional than than integral.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

If I let myself go, get fat, stop shaving etc. and I want to have sex but my husband can't Bc he's not attracted to me so he can't get an erection then whose fault is it? 
If my husband doesn't spend quality time with me, and he comes to bed and rolls over and says hey! Wanna have sex? And I am completely turned off and can't get wet them whose fault is it? 

People on here are acting like the other persons actions/behavior aren't a factor in their sex life and of course it is.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

katiecrna said:


> I disagree with this. Your wife isn't yours. You don't own her. She is her own person with thoughts and feelings and they should matter.


You own each other. Yes your spouse has thoughts and feelings that matter. However, if I have to earn sex, then does my wife have to 'earn' giving her quality time? From a HN/HN basis, that is our trade off, touch for quality time.

If you are Christian, it spells this out explicitly in the Bible. Both are to give to each other, physically.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

uhtred said:


> Have you been in the position of wanting sex with your husband and his just saying no? Not his being unable to have an erection or something, but his just preferring not to because he isn't in the mood?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




My husband works a ton like 80-100hrs a week and is often under a tremendous amount of stress and is always sleep deprived. So sometimes when I'm in the mood and I initiate, he just physically can't get it up Bc of exhaustion or whatever. And it ends up being embarrassing and frustrating for both of us, and i end up feeling bad about myself and so does he. 
Sometimes I am not in the mood because of multiple reasons, and there have been times when I just tried to have sex but physically couldn't and it ended up being embarrassing and frustrating for the both of us leaving us both feelings bad. 

So to me, if we're in the mood let's have sex. If we can't get in the mood, let's not even try.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

uhtred said:


> Not once in 30 years have I told my wife "I don't feel like sex now" - unless there was some real physical reason.


I could say the same thing, but even without the caveat. Did a hundred mile bike ride over 5 mountain passes? No problem, never too tired to do the deed. Injured? No problem, the necessary equipment is st.ll functioning. Too sick to do the work? No problem, happy to let her get on top and do the heavy lifting. 

Barring irreparable damage between to the package itself, I can't ever see saying no to the Mrs.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I think that both words, “given” and “earned”, set up a very bad dynamic in a marriage. They seem to assume that sex is a prize that one or the other has control over.

Marring someone does not earn someone sex. If that were the case, then no one would have the right to turn down sex. 

The term I would use are “shared”.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I could say the same thing, but even without the caveat. Did a hundred mile bike ride over 5 mountain passes? No problem, never too tired to do the deed. Injured? No problem, the necessary equipment is st.ll functioning. Too sick to do the work? No problem, happy to let her get on top and do the heavy lifting.
> 
> 
> 
> Barring irreparable damage between to the package itself, I can't ever see saying no to the Mrs.




Well no offense but you probably haven't killed a patient before. Or been verbally abused by your boss while working 100 hrs a week. You probably haven't told a wife and kids that their husband and father may never wake up again.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

katiecrna said:


> If I let myself go, get fat, stop shaving etc. and I want to have sex but my husband can't Bc he's not attracted to me so he can't get an erection then whose fault is it?
> If my husband doesn't spend quality time with me, and he comes to bed and rolls over and says hey! Wanna have sex? And I am completely turned off and can't get wet them whose fault is it?
> 
> People on here are acting like the other persons actions/behavior aren't a factor in their sex life and of course it is.


sure it takes two to tango, but your examples are how you forfeit sex. It should shared, but if one no longer wants to share because the other gained 300 pounds, it implies to me the M is toast anyways.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

naiveonedave said:


> sure it takes two to tango, but your examples are how you forfeit sex. It should shared, but if one no longer wants to share because the other gained 300 pounds, it implies to me the M is toast anyways.




Let me clarify. There is wanting to have sex, and there is not in the mood to have sex. 

I always want to have sex, but many times I'm not in the mood to have sex. I would love to be in the mood to have sex, but I'm not. Like many people say... I want to want to have Sex.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

I find this to be funny because people on here are saying sex and marriage is a package deal, yet many are living a sexless marriage or are unhappy with their frequency.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

katiecrna said:


> Well no offense but you probably haven't killed a patient before. Or been verbally abused by your boss while working 100 hrs a week. You probably haven't told a wife and kids that their husband and father may never wake up again.


So none of us have faced death? Nobody else has dealt with high levels of stress? Nobody else works hard... often to the point of total exhaustion? 

The stories I could tell.... (all true, btw)

But I do acknowledge the different people react to these things in different ways. My point is that if my wife asks, I answer the call, simple as that. She need not pass any litmus test beforehand. Call that "giving" or "sharing" or whatever you want along that continuum, but I would never expect her to jump through hoops for my attention. 

As others have noted, it's easy to damage the sharing. I know there are things I can do that will turn my wife off. If you want to think of avoiding these things or doing the things that maintain the sharing as "earning" sex, that's fine. These words are open to interpretation, especially when they can appear in different contexts.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> As an attempt not to hijack the respect thread, I thought I would make this one and ask this question...
> 
> When your married, should sex be given or earned?


Taken.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

katiecrna said:


> I find this to be funny because people on here are saying sex and marriage is a package deal, yet many are living a sexless marriage or are unhappy with their frequency.


I don't think anybody has said it _is_ a package deal, but most agree _it should be_. The two naturally go together. Without the sex, the marriage is greatly diminished, and may not last.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> I think that both words, “given” and “earned”, set up a very bad dynamic in a marriage. They seem to assume that someone sex is a prize that one or the other has control over.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I agree with you.

I think that as spouses we should make an effort to please the other. Whether that be sexually or romantically. Problems imo start when things are EXPECTED. I'm sorry but my husband doesn't own me and I don't own him. We made a choice to life out our lives together as partners with the freedom to leave each other if we choose. That freedom to leave means that there are consequences for our actions and inactions.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I count exhaustion, overwork etc as completely reasonable reasons to decline sex. Same if your partner is behaving badly. 

What I was talking about is turning them down when there is no particular reason to do so. When there is just something you would prefer to do. 





katiecrna said:


> My husband works a ton like 80-100hrs a week and is often under a tremendous amount of stress and is always sleep deprived. So sometimes when I'm in the mood and I initiate, he just physically can't get it up Bc of exhaustion or whatever. And it ends up being embarrassing and frustrating for both of us, and i end up feeling bad about myself and so does he.
> Sometimes I am not in the mood because of multiple reasons, and there have been times when I just tried to have sex but physically couldn't and it ended up being embarrassing and frustrating for the both of us leaving us both feelings bad.
> 
> So to me, if we're in the mood let's have sex. If we can't get in the mood, let's not even try.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

My marriage is a weird dynamic. But given, shared. 

Earned is just an ugly concept.

There was a time 40 years ago my wife faked orgasms, and that upset me, to say the least. During the arguments one of the things my wife came up with was the idea of method acting. She said it was okay for her to fake it because she was acting, and if she could act well enough she could make it good, like a good actor could invest herself into a role and become the part. I didn't accept that, but it did give me pause.

My wife gave, and gave, and gave. Now it is sharing. Much better.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> So none of us have faced death? Nobody else has dealt with high levels of stress? Nobody else works hard... often to the point of total exhaustion?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




My husband always comes to the call as well. He tries, he makes an attempt. And what I was saying before was the failed attempts were more harmful to our marriage. I think you missed that point I was trying to make before. 

If my husband isn't in the mood but tries anyway Bc I want to, and it's a failed attempt... I would of much rather him tell me the truth, honey I'm exhausted tonight I can't. 
Many women have sex with their husbands even though they don't want to and build resentment over the years and end up hating him.

I'm all about no means no, and yes means yes. Have sex only if you want to have sex, not because it's an obligation. And my husbands behavior to an extent affects my mood, my desire to have Sex with him. And it isn't manipulation, or rewarding/punishing behavior that men like to think it is. It's what you do... affects me. Your actions and behaviors are not benign.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

katiecrna said:


> Problems imo start when things are EXPECTED.


And you EXPECT your husband to behave a certain way or you won't have sex with him. 
Expectations come in many forms. Some expectations are necessary in a healthy relationship because if certain things aren't done, desire (and ultimately the relationship withers) as you have yourself noted. 

I think we are saying much the same thing, but with subtle variation and with slightly different verbiage.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> And you EXPECT your husband to behave a certain way or you won't have sex with him.
> 
> Expectations come in many forms. Some expectations are necessary in a healthy relationship because if certain things aren't done, desire (and ultimately the relationship withers) as you have yourself noted.
> 
> ...




I don't expect him to behave a certain way. I need to feel a certain way to want to have sex. Unfortunately how I feel is affected by many things, sometimes my husbands behavior is one of them.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I agree with those saying it should be shared. But sometimes, you just need to ****, and when you do you should be able to ask for and get that too. So I guess I am gonna say it should be given, taken, shared, used as a reward, and earned, all of those things, if and when they're wanted by one or both people.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

katiecrna said:


> I don't expect him to behave a certain way. I need to feel a certain way to want to have sex. Unfortunately how I feel is affected by many things, sometimes my husbands behavior is one of them.


to-may-to
to-mah-to

If you didn't _expect _your husband to behave a certain way, you wouldn't be with him at all, let alone having sex.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I think we are saying much the same thing, but with subtle variation and with slightly different verbiage.




I agree. 
I am an emotional women, whether I like it or not. And sometimes I think my very practical, non emotional husband doesn't understand is that my emotions affect my behavior, attitude, mood etc. so he thinks one way, were spouses and we love each other therefore there is nothing wrong with asking for sex. And I think another way, you make me feel bad or not good enough to put in a little effort to show me you love me before having sex with me. He thinks, but sex means I love you. But I don't ever FEEL that way inside. In my head I get it, but I never feel that way.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> to-may-to
> 
> to-mah-to
> 
> ...




I guess so. My husband can do whatever he wants to do, but there are consequences for his actions. I don't own him. He wants to cheat on me? Go ahead your allowed, however I'll divorce you. You want to never spend quality time with me, go ahead, I'll be miserable and we will be sexless.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

I mean isn't that what marriage and relationships are? Figuring out what the other person needs and likes and what behaviors make them happy? Because there is nothing better than a really happy spouse. My husband always says I just want you to be happy. When my husband is really happy, I'm happy because I love him. As long as he's not happy at my expense lol. 

So why do we stop doing things that make the other happy? Is it because they no longer appreciate it, they don't express their happiness during it, or do we feel like our own needs aren't being met so we aren't going to meet theirs, is it resentment? Lack of care?


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## deepsouth (Apr 28, 2017)

katiecrna said:


> I don't expect him to behave a certain way. I need to feel a certain way to want to have sex. Unfortunately how I feel is affected by many things, sometimes my husbands behavior is one of them.


You say you don't expect him to "behave a certain way" but in your other posts you seem to demand that he earns sex with you by behaving in a certain way??


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

katiecrna said:


> I wonder if people's answers differ between sexes.
> 
> To me, it's more earned than given. Not that I use sex to manipulate but because I'm not in the mood unless certain things happen or don't happen.


Give me what I want, when I want it, or I'll withhold affection! And even if you do, I may just withhold it anyways.

That's what I see when I read this. 




> My husband works a ton like 80-100hrs a week and is often under a tremendous amount of stress and is always sleep deprived. So sometimes when I'm in the mood and I initiate, he just physically can't get it up Bc of exhaustion or whatever. And it ends up being embarrassing and frustrating for both of us, and i end up feeling bad about myself and so does he.
> Sometimes I am not in the mood because of multiple reasons, and there have been times when I just tried to have sex but physically couldn't and it ended up being embarrassing and frustrating for the both of us leaving us both feelings bad.
> 
> So to me, if we're in the mood let's have sex. If we can't get in the mood, let's not even try.


A simple "No" to uhtred would have been appropriate here. You've never, ever, been turned down for sex, except when there was a functional issue. Your H never stops you from initiating and says "look I really don't feel like doing this" and gets up to go in the other room. 

You might feel a little different about this topic if you've ever experienced it. Most women I know that have experienced it have a complete freak-out. They like being in control of the situation, and they've never had the empathy to put themselves in the shoes of their SO.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> Well no offense but you probably haven't killed a patient before. Or been verbally abused by your boss while working 100 hrs a week. You probably haven't told a wife and kids that their husband and father may never wake up again.


My ex, who is an ICU nurse, thrived off of the physical outlet of sex after things like this. Hell, there are dramas upon tv dramas of high stress situations in hospitals leading to people banging it out in a closet, a car, under the operating table...


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

deepsouth said:


> You say you don't expect him to "behave a certain way" but in your other posts you seem to demand that he earns sex with you by behaving in a certain way??




Earns is a bad word. Shared is better. Like someone else said... given sounds too controlling and earns sounds like rewarding. 

The point I'm failing to get across is that we have consequences for our actions. And I feel like some people think certain things are expected because they are married. And I agree with this to a certain extent. But when it comes to sex... I have a problem when men think their wives should just give it up simply for the fact that they are married. I really disagree with this.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Kivlor said:


> Give me what I want, when I want it, or I'll withhold affection! And even if you do, I may just withhold it anyways.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thank you for this comment. It really helped me understand my husbands point of view more. 

Your 100% right. Both my husband and My opinions of our shared experiences affect how we both want sex to start. I don't know why I never thought of this before.

He never refuses. But he has had failed attempts when I initiate. These failed attempts make me feel terrible about myself, which is why I wish he nicely declined me in the first place. 
So when I'm not in the mood (and from my own experiences of not being able to get wet) I would rather refuse him because to me, a failed attempt feels worse than being refused. At least it does in my head. Plus it's easier lol. 

Your right, I don't know what it feels like to put In effort and be rejected. I understand now why my husband takes the "safer" way of asking. But the problem still remains, because we both like sex to start differently.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

katiecrna said:


> Earns is a bad word. Shared is better. Like someone else said... given sounds too controlling and earns sounds like rewarding.
> 
> The point I'm failing to get across is that we have consequences for our actions. And I feel like some people think certain things are expected because they are married. And I agree with this to a certain extent. But when it comes to sex... I have a problem when men think their wives should just give it up simply for the fact that they are married. I really disagree with this.


I think this is the team approach vs individual approach to a relationship. People that think they should always have sex when one partner is in the mood have a team attitude to the relationship. You don't share that attitude. But hey, whatever works for you and your husband is for you two to decide.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Herschel said:


> My ex, who is an ICU nurse, thrived off of the physical outlet of sex after things like this. Hell, there are dramas upon tv dramas of high stress situations in hospitals leading to people banging it out in a closet, a car, under the operating table...




People react differently to different things obviously. When my husband killed his first patient, he went nuts. Literally. His attendings were so worried. He kept repeating himself. He was like, But Katie you don't understand I don't know what I did wrong. And I kept saying it's ok, stuff happens even his attending said it. And he kept saying... but you don't get it, I don't know what I did! He was nutty. His thing was... if I don't know what I did wrong, what if he does it again. And it scared the crap out of him.

For my graduate degree I would get so stressed out over tests. Like stayed up late, drank coffee didn't eat. But for me to relax and sleep I needed to have an orgasm. So I would wake up my husband and have sex with him just so I could finally relax and sleep. Friends in
My class say that sex is the last thing on their mind when they are stressed.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Bananapeel said:


> I think this is the team approach vs individual approach to a relationship. People that think they should always have sex when one partner is in the mood have a team attitude to the relationship. You don't share that attitude. But hey, whatever works for you and your husband is for you two to decide.




Interesting point. And I agree with you. I am going to try to make more of an effort to have sex when I don't feel like it.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> I just don't see it that way at all. I understand what your saying but to me I need to want to have sex. And for me to want to have be sex... we can't be fighting, or distant, or whatever. I love sex, when I'm in the mood I initiate which is often. But when I'm not in the mood and my husband comes home and doesn't spend any quality time with me and is like hey wanna have sex? The answer is always no. But take that same scenario, if he comes home late and gets in bed with me and cuddles me and whispers some sweet nothings in my ear the chances of me having sex is way higher.
> 
> To me it's not "earned" in the sense of rewarding positive behavior from him, it's "earned" in the sense that I need to FEEL in the mood to help Sex, and he can get me in the mood or he can repel that mood.


To be honest I don't really understand the question. In your posts, it comes across clearly that to you, it means that sex is *given* when it is *earned* (through certain behaviour of your husband). And it is fine if that works for you and him.

In my marriage, we share the *experience*, but I *take* the sex when I know it is likely to be available (not in a rapey kind of way though she likes that too, sometimes).
Doing nice things for each other: goes without saying in a marriage but why does it need to be in order to earn sex? I personally don't think it is a good idea to use sex as a reward tool. It might backfire.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

I think what I am thinking about in my head, because I have my own biases and yes I'm aware of them... is that I have a problem when people don't treat their spouse good, or a certain way that they want, and then use the, well were married were suppose to have sex card. 

Don't get me wrong, I love sex. But when in a long term relationship, I think sex is to men like intimacy/romance is to women. But what I notice is that often men throw out that romance part of the relationship but we're still expected to have sex with our husbands. To me, it isn't balanced and it's almost thrown in women's face like we're married we're suppose to have sex. If you don't have sex with me that puts me at risk of finding it elsewhere. Where I think women are often left feeling lonely, not desired, not loved etc. 

For me, romance and nice little things, just feeling special makes me feel loved. And when I don't get that, on top of my husband asking me for sex instead of wooing me for sex makes me feel worse. When I tell my husband I don't feel loved, he usually gets annoyed and makes me feel needy and says something dismissive like I've been with you for so and so years of course I love you. He takes offense to me saying I don't feel loved because to him he's with me, he's faithful, he works hard so of course he loves me. 

I guess it's just a disconnect and misunderstanding.


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## deepsouth (Apr 28, 2017)

katiecrna said:


> Earns is a bad word. Shared is better. Like someone else said... given sounds too controlling and earns sounds like rewarding.
> 
> The point I'm failing to get across is that we have consequences for our actions. And I feel like some people think certain things are expected because they are married. And I agree with this to a certain extent. But when it comes to sex... I have a problem when men think their wives should just give it up simply for the fact that they are married. I really disagree with this.


Okay, Sex, given or shared? Are you saying that should be the title instead? If so, I don't know how that could be an 'either/or' type of question.

I've seen a lot of wonderful answers on this site and one of the best is when people turn the question around and look at it from a male to female standpoint instead of a female to male type of question (or vice-versa as the case might be).

You even made an attempt at it earlier in the thread when describing your question from your husband's point of view. (Not saying I understood the equivalency of your attempt!)

Most of the things that marriage gives us we take for granted. I don't earn the right to use my marital status in a given situation I just take it for granted... (I can't think of a perfect example here but maybe it's like a joint checking account where we both use it without thinking we need to earn the right --with a few obvious exceptions like knowing the balance!).

Do I expect my wife to put in a certain amount before she writes a check? No. She's my wife she just writes the check. It's a benefit that we both own. Marriage is like that in a way. Sex within marriage is like using that joint account. There is no "mine" and there is no "hers". 

We're not two independent people that if the stars line up just right and I've been perfectly responsive to her needs I get to have sex. We both put our names on the account and we both can use the benefits that come from that account.

Independence is a wonderful thing when you are single, not so much when you are married.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Given, whether I 'feel' like it or not, and enjoying it together. Using sex as a controlling tactic is appalling.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> I think what I am thinking about in my head, because I have my own biases and yes I'm aware of them... is that I have a problem when people don't treat their spouse good, or a certain way that they want, and then use the, well were married were suppose to have sex card.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I love sex. But when in a long term relationship, I think sex is to men like intimacy/romance is to women. But what I notice is that often men throw out that romance part of the relationship but we're still expected to have sex with our husbands. To me, it isn't balanced and it's almost thrown in women's face like we're married we're suppose to have sex. If you don't have sex with me that puts me at risk of finding it elsewhere. Where I think women are often left feeling lonely, not desired, not loved etc.
> 
> ...


Those are normal feelings to have and it's been like this for millennia I guess. I think you might be saying that you wish your husband paid you more attention/spent more time with you. Given his tough work schedule, he probably finds it hard to always give you that attention.

Btw it's not really possible to make generalisations I don't think: there are men who want more attention than their wife is capable of giving them too (not just sexually) just as there are women who just want to be pounded hard, with or without much attention  You have to work out what works for your relationship as there aren't any rules as such. You are talking about him meeting your needs and vice versa. It doesn't need to be a 'quid pro quo' thing but I am sure this is unavoidable in some relationships.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

And no, it can be unbalanced the other way around too. You are looking at it too much from your perspective. There are many relationships where the man is giving tons of attention and affection but is not getting any sex (just as an example). You are right that there should be a balance. Just as with anything.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

I do generalize but I think there is truth to what I'm saying. Of course there are some men who want more attention etc. but I think what a very common scenario amongst married people is men unhappy with sex life, women unhappy with emotional connection/romance. I know it's not good to generalize but I also think there are some patterns that can't be ignored and we can learn from them. Yes there will always be people that don't fit the bill, but what I described I believe is more common then not.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> I do generalize but I think there is truth to what I'm saying. Of course there are some men who want more attention etc. but I think what a very common scenario amongst married people is men unhappy with sex life, women unhappy with emotional connection/romance. I know it's not good to generalize but I also think there are some patterns that can't be ignored and we can learn from them. Yes there will always be people that don't fit the bill, but what I described I believe is more common then not.


Well yes that's probably true. But you were implying previously (correct me if I am wrong) that the way to counteract that imbalance is to reduce sex? (The whole 'earning' idea is basically that). I am just not sure it is a good approach...Talking works better, usually :smile2:


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> Well yes that's probably true. But you were implying previously (correct me if I am wrong) that the way to counteract that imbalance is to reduce sex? (The whole 'earning' idea is basically that). I am just not sure it is a good approach...Talking works better, usually :smile2:




Not to reduce sex but to only have sex when you feel like it. This helps in multiple ways... This way you won't feel resentful from saying yes when you really want to say no. Also it's about self respect. I am my own person, I am in charge of my body, I'm allowed to say no, I can have control of my sex life. Also to teach (not manipulate!!!) your spouse how to treat you and what you like and dislike. 

I know that the last sentence can come off bad but I don't mean it to be that way. I've learned through my own experience what gets my husband going, and what doesn't based on his response. 

I am not speaking of manipulation because that has a negative connotation to it. I just mean that you teach your spouse what you like and don't like through actions. But I'm not saying for me to have sex with my husband x,y and z need to take place before I will do it. No. That's not what I'm saying at all. However at the same time if my husband does X he needs to know that sex is off the table. And that is an important distinction. I don't need roses, massages and poetry for sex to take place. But understand that if you don't spend anytime with me all week and you say "hey wanna have sex" as your half asleep that the answer is no. Or if we get in a fight and you call me a bad name, the answer is no. 

I am a strong feminist women and I love Sex and I initiate all the time. My point is that for sex to take place I have to feel a certain way. It's about me because I am making a decision and I am 100% choosing my decision. And that may sound selfish but I don't think it is. I think it's selfish when people act like the perfect spouse on the outside while filling up with resentment because they really didn't want to do what they are doing. But I do understand that people can abuse sex and use it to manipulate people. And I know that sex is super important to men, and I feel really bad for men who are in sexless marriages.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

katiecrna said:


> As an attempt not to hijack the respect thread, I thought I would make this one and ask this question...
> 
> When your married, should sex be given or earned?


It should be *inspired*.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

katiecrna said:


> I find this to be funny because people on here are saying sex and marriage is a package deal, yet many are *living a sexless marriage* or are unhappy with their frequency.


Because they choose to do so


Those who won't tolerate sex as a bargaining chip or manipulation tool rarely live sexless.

For me it seems clear. Relationships are earned. You work to make an establishment of it. Once there sex is part of that and should be a given.

And I don't mean sex should be given and demanded whenever however unreasonable. What I mean by given is that it shouldn't be used as manipulation/coercion/ a weapon. Denying sex is an unreasonable as denying a hug, or a touch, or listening to your spouse. All those things seem to be given but somehow sex gets left off that list and it shouldn't


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

katiecrna said:


> Interesting point. And I agree with you. I am going to try to make more of an effort to have sex when I don't feel like it.


That is good to hear you made this distinction. You were using sex as coercion and as you pointed out actions have consequences. He may tolerate it or could divorce you over it.....or cheat.

Successful marriages have people who try to understand the others point of view and if they can't understand it they need to at least respect it. You understand him a bit better and hopefully he will go to some effort to understand your position better. After all I bet he wants an enthusiastic partner and he can certainly "earn" that in you by treating you well.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

katiecrna said:


> I do generalize but I think there is truth to what I'm saying. Of course there are some men who want more attention etc. but I think what a very common scenario amongst married people is men unhappy with sex life, women unhappy with emotional connection/romance. I know it's not good to generalize but I also think there are some patterns that can't be ignored and we can learn from them. Yes there will always be people that don't fit the bill, but what I described I believe is more common then not.


I think you're probably spot on. The question becomes which come first. From a mans perspective I wouldn't feel connect to , loving toward, or want to go out of my way to a spouse who was turning me down for sex all the time. That's why I said in another post that partners need to respect each other and communicate:
I need this
I need that then


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> Not to reduce sex but to only have sex when you feel like it. This helps in multiple ways... This way you won't feel resentful from saying yes when you really want to say no. Also it's about self respect. I am my own person, I am in charge of my body, I'm allowed to say no, I can have control of my sex life. Also to teach (not manipulate!!!) your spouse how to treat you and what you like and dislike.


Ok so imagine a scenario where you are saying 'no' to sex (withholding) with your husband in order to 'teach him' to be more attentive and he is withholding attention because you are refusing sex and that keeps happening because both of you are stubborn: because this is essentially why these forums exist: *people are unable to communicate * properly and use petty tactics instead. That's what I meant that your plan is likely to backfire. 
What is the problem with just telling your husband at the time when he's not being attentive, that he's not being attentive? if you feel you have some special weapon (sex), you are mistaken: your husband will find one too. You are supposed to work as a team together, not perform the Pavlov dog conditioning.
I am not sure you have thought it through. Being able to communicate has nothing to do with not being a feminist, but withholding sex as a tool to manipulate (lets call it what it is) is in my eyes the opposite.




katiecrna said:


> I know that the last sentence can come off bad but I don't mean it to be that way. I've learned through my own experience what gets my husband going, and what doesn't based on his response.
> 
> I am not speaking of manipulation because that has a negative connotation to it. I just mean that you teach your spouse what you like and don't like through actions. But I'm not saying for me to have sex with my husband x,y and z need to take place before I will do it. No. That's not what I'm saying at all. However at the same time if my husband does X he needs to know that sex is off the table. And that is an important distinction. I don't need roses, massages and poetry for sex to take place. But understand that if you don't spend anytime with me all week and you say "hey wanna have sex" as your half asleep that the answer is no. Or if we get in a fight and you call me a bad name, the answer is no.
> 
> I am a strong feminist women and I love Sex and I initiate all the time. My point is that for sex to take place I have to feel a certain way. It's about me because I am making a decision and I am 100% choosing my decision. And that may sound selfish but I don't think it is. I think it's selfish when people act like the perfect spouse on the outside while filling up with resentment because they really didn't want to do what they are doing. But I do understand that people can abuse sex and use it to manipulate people. And I know that sex is super important to men, and I feel really bad for men who are in sexless marriages.


Yes, you should never do anything against your will or something you have a strong aversion to but I think you are conflating two separate things together into a one ill-thought out plan, if you don't mind me saying so.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Wolf1974 said:


> I think you're probably spot on. The question becomes which come first. From a mans perspective I wouldn't feel connect to , loving toward, or want to go out of my way to a spouse who was turning me down for sex all the time. That's why I said in another post that partners need to respect each other and communicate:
> 
> I need this
> 
> I need that then




So your using the way you treat your wife as a way to teach her that sex is important to you. And that there are consequences for constantly turning you down. Some will call this manipulation. I call this normal behavior. I wouldn't go out of my way for a spouse if they kept turning me down either. Just like I wouldn't have sex with a spouse if they didn't treat me a certain way. Why not? Not to manipulate them, but simple you don't FEEL like it after their behavior made you feel bad.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

katiecrna said:


> So your using the way you treat your wife as a way to teach her that sex is important to you. And that there are consequences for constantly turning you down. Some will call this manipulation. I call this normal behavior. I wouldn't go out of my way for a spouse if they kept turning me down either. Just like I wouldn't have sex with a spouse if they didn't treat me a certain way. Why not? Not to manipulate them, but simple you don't FEEL like it after their behavior made you feel bad.


Just as from time to time I have had things on my mind and didn't feel like having a long conversation about her day. I didn't FEEL like it but I knew this was important to her and I knew that not doing it would only make her feel worse.

My point being is their are likely more loops in relationships than straight lines. Sometimes doing for your spouse even though you may not FEEL like it can have a profound effect on both of you.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Wolf1974 said:


> Just as from time to time I have had things on my mind and didn't feel like having a long conversation about her day. I didn't FEEL like it but I knew this was important to her and I knew that not doing it would only make her feel worse.
> 
> 
> 
> My point being is their are likely more loops in relationships than straight lines. Sometimes doing for your spouse even though you may not FEEL like it can have a profound effect on both of you.




I 100% agree with you.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

katiecrna said:


> As an attempt not to hijack the respect thread, I thought I would make this one and ask this question...
> 
> When your married, should sex be given or earned?


Neither! Sex should be shared for the pleasure of it.

If sex isn't a pleasure with someone, I think it is best to avoid sharing it with them.

As a general approach if someone believes they should give sex or receive sex as a reward, their perspective is in part toxic to a healthy sexual relationship.

As a general approach if someone believes they should give sex or get sex to meet an obligation, their perspective is in part toxic to a healthy sexual relationship.

I share lots of frequent sex with my wife, because I enjoy it for the pleasure I get from it. My wife shares the same sex with me, because she enjoys the pleasure she gets from it.

There is no way I will give my wife sex, because I feel obliged to provide it to her. Just as there is no way I will give her sex, because she overcomes whatever arbitrary obstacles I put in her way.

I don't need my wife for sex, just as she doesn't need me for sex. If either of us no longer want to share sex together for the pleasure of it, we will share sex with others for the pleasure of it.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

jld said:


> It should be *inspired*.


How many Os are there in inspired.😜


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> I agree with those saying it should be shared. But sometimes, you just need to ****, and when you do you should be able to ask for and get that too. So I guess I am gonna say it should be given, taken, shared, used as a reward, and earned, all of those things, if and when they're wanted by one or both people.


Have you ever heard someone say "let's **** now,we can make love in the morning"🤠


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Like I was saying before, we all want a happy spouse, yet we stop doing things that make them happy. Whether that means having great sex, or big romantic gestures. Why do we stop doing things that make them happy? At some point along the way someone stops doing something, something is expected and not given, and there is no longer equal effort, someone isn't appreciated etc.

For me, being the biased women that I am... I feel like those romantic little things that the husbands use to do in the beginning go out the window, yet sex is still expected from the women. So to answer WOLFs question what happens first the chicken or the egg, I know that it was my husbands actions that stopped first.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Uh, shared.

But don't be mean and moody Lucy and pull the pigskin away at the last minute, causing eager Brown Charlie to slam into the mattress.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> Like I was saying before, we all want a happy spouse, yet we stop doing things that make them happy. Whether that means having great sex, or big romantic gestures. Why do we stop doing things that make them happy? At some point along the way someone stops doing something, something is expected and not given, and there is no longer equal effort, someone isn't appreciated etc.


Or someone is keeping a tight score. Relationships shouldn't be about keeping scores.



katiecrna said:


> For me, being the biased women that I am... I feel like those romantic little things that the husbands use to do in the beginning go out the window, yet sex is still expected from the women. So to answer WOLFs question what happens first the chicken or the egg, I know that it was my husbands actions that stopped first.


Your husband is more than likely going to see it differently.
I guess you are not going to engage with him in a conversation. Good luck with the strategy.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

katiecrna said:


> Like I was saying before, we all want a happy spouse, yet we stop doing things that make them happy. Whether that means having great sex, or big romantic gestures. Why do we stop doing things that make them happy? At some point along the way someone stops doing something, something is expected and not given, and there is no longer equal effort, someone isn't appreciated etc.
> 
> For me, being the biased women that I am... I feel like those romantic little things that the husbands use to do in the beginning go out the window, yet sex is still expected from the women. So to answer WOLFs question what happens first the chicken or the egg, I know that it was my husbands actions that stopped first.


I don't think I have stopped doing nice things for my husband. I don't think he has, either.

But, tbh, I don't think either of us has ever really gone too much out of our way in that way.

At any rate, our sex life has been pretty stable throughout the last 25 years. It has been more enjoyable as the kids grow up and we have more free time together, though.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> Or someone is keeping a tight score. Relationships shouldn't be about keeping scores.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I've tried to talk to him a million times. And I am trying to talk to him now. But my husband is too defensive to understand the point I am trying to make. 

And I am not keeping tight score. I went 2 years with "doing my part", and he neglected to do his. I had tons of conversations with him at the time and he still didn't get it. And then after 2 years of me doing my part, all the cooking, all the cleaning, all the laundry, all the grocery shopping, having Sex, making his family happy, and entertaining his family all the time, and while he stopped doing the things that I liked even after I talked to him about it, and as his treatment for me worsened I got low self esteem because I would still be home folding his laundry and blah blah, I realized that he wanted only the good with the marriage and not the responsibility with the marriage, and I decided to stop doing "my part" for him since he stop doing his. And here we are.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> I've tried to talk to him a million times. And I am trying to talk to him now. But my husband is too defensive to understand the point I am trying to make.
> 
> And I am not keeping tight score. I went 2 years with "doing my part", and he neglected to do his. I had tons of conversations with him at the time and he still didn't get it. And then after 2 years of me doing my part, all the cooking, all the cleaning, all the laundry, all the grocery shopping, having Sex, making his family happy, and entertaining his family all the time, and while he stopped doing the things that I liked even after I talked to him about it, and as his treatment for me worsened I got low self esteem because I would still be home folding his laundry and blah blah, I realized that he wanted only the good with the marriage and not the responsibility with the marriage, and I decided to stop doing "my part" for him since he stop doing his. And here we are.


What kind of things do you like? What are the things he is not doing? And what does he say exactly when you ask him to do them?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> I've tried to talk to him a million times. And I am trying to talk to him now. But my husband is too defensive to understand the point I am trying to make.
> 
> And I am not keeping tight score. I went 2 years with "doing my part", and he neglected to do his. I had tons of conversations with him at the time and he still didn't get it. And then after 2 years of me doing my part, all the cooking, all the cleaning, all the laundry, all the grocery shopping, having Sex, making his family happy, and entertaining his family all the time, and while he stopped doing the things that I liked even after I talked to him about it, and as his treatment for me worsened I got low self esteem because I would still be home folding his laundry and blah blah, I realized that he wanted only the good with the marriage and not the responsibility with the marriage, and I decided to stop doing "my part" for him since he stop doing his. And here we are.


I have sympathy with this. I presume him working 100 hours a week etc probably features somewhere in your calculation.
My point is that you should tell him that you find it hard to feel 'sexy' or be intimate with him when he's neglecting giving you attention. If you don't tell him and simply withhold as a form of punishment, it does come across as manipulative, I am afraid.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> What kind of things do you like? What are the things he is not doing? And what does he say exactly when you ask him to do them?




All i want is to spend quality time with him. That's it. 

Here's an example... I take a bubble bath everynight. He hates baths, and always showers in the morning. He use to occasionally get in the bath with me, and it made me so happy. If he didn't want to get in the bath, he would always sit on the Toliet and put his feet in and just spend time with me after not seeing me all day. 
He use to take me on dates. Plan vacations and trips with me. Buy me flowers. Take a walk with me after dinner. 
Now he never does the above. We haven't had a vacation or trip in over 3 years. He hasn't come in the bathroom when I'm taken a bath in years. He literally comes home, and it's super awkward. He changes the tv channel and falls asleep on the couch. Sometimes he sleeps in bed with me, sometimes he sleeps in the couch. When I talk to him about it he says that it's because of work and the stress he is under, and all the fighting we have done. He makes an excuse for everything. I try to address any issue, and he immediately gets defensive, and says yea yea I know I'm a terrible guy. Or he says I try my hardest. I try to address an important issue to me and to our marriage and this is always the response. It's exhausting and goes nowhere. He wants to get Defensive and make excuses for everything. He works 7 days a week. We haven't had dinner together in a long time. Right now I'm typing this and it's 920pm and he isn't home yet. I try to explain to him that marriage takes time spend together and that's all I want. But it doesn't happen. Yesterday I got home at 830pm after a long 13hr shift and I went straight to bed. He came home sometime after and came to bed and asked me in a sleepy voice, do you want to have sex? 
Basically he thinks he can do whatever he wants and I have to still have sex with him. I honestly feel like I live in this house by myself. I literally do everything. When the garbage disposal broke, I had to YouTube it and fix it myself. I do everything literally. My husband comes in and out as he pleases and it's like he's a stranger visiting that's how disconnected we are.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> I have sympathy with this. I presume him working 100 hours a week etc probably features somewhere in your calculation.
> 
> My point is that you should tell him that you find it hard to feel 'sexy' or be intimate with him when he's neglecting giving you attention. If you don't tell him and simply withhold as a form of punishment, it does come across as manipulative, I am afraid.




I have a million times! That's my point, he thinks because we are married I should be having Sex with him. And the kicker is... I have told him 100x do not ask me to have Sex, it makes me feel bad and the answer will be no. And he still asks me.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> All i want is to spend quality time with him. That's it.
> 
> Here's an example... I take a bubble bath everynight. He hates baths, and always showers in the morning. He use to occasionally get in the bath with me, and it made me so happy. If he didn't want to get in the bath, he would always sit on the Toliet and put his feet in and just spend time with me after not seeing me all day.
> He use to take me on dates. Plan vacations and trips with me. Buy me flowers. Take a walk with me after dinner.
> ...


Has his work schedule been different in the past, when he was able to do the things with you?
Can he reduce the hours he works and not work on weekends etc? 
If he works 7 days a week and is back home after 9pm each day, i don't see how he can do any of the things you are asking him to do. I'm surprised he finds time to ask for sex at all to be honest.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Oh and he's definitely at work when he comes back late?


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> Has his work schedule been different in the past, when he was able to do the things with you?
> 
> Can he reduce the hours he works and not work on weekends etc?
> 
> If he works 7 days a week and is back home after 9pm each day, i don't see how he can do any of the things you are asking him to do. I'm surprised he finds time to ask for sex at all to be honest.




His work schedule is worse now then it was. According to him he can't work less. Yea I agree he works a lot and I have a lot of sympathy for him, until I remember that he gets 3 weeks vacation every year and he has not taken that time off and spent it with me in over 3 years. When I ask him about it... he gets defensive and says we can't afford it. He doesn't get it as usual. I said why not a stay vacation so we can hang out together and maybe visit family. All I hear is excuse excuse excuse. 
The point is yes he works a ton, which is why I don't expect a lot out of him. But he also uses work as an excuse and plays victim a lot. The truth is he can do more but he doesn't. The truth is he can take vacation time but he doesn't.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

I'm closer to his parents then he is. He mom and dad have told me that they are so disappointed in him because he never calls them or answers their phone and always says he's too busy, and forgot his dads birthday and blah blah blah. His brother says the same thing to me. However they don't want to say anything to him because they don't want to make him feel bad, and plus he gets really mad and defensive.
I try to talk to my husband about it and as usual he doesn't get it. He plays the victim... yea yea I know I'm a terrible guy but doesn't change anything. He doesnt get it. He doesn't realize that all we want is a little of his time. Is a phone call here and there. Is some time spent with us. Instead he changes nothing, and always says things like we all hate him and we he is always making everyone miserable and he always feels like crap because he is always disappointing us. It's such a act. None of us are asking for much.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> His work schedule is worse now then it was.


Ok so that's the difference and the problem as far as I can tell, not that he is now all of a sudden taking your marriage for granted (provided that he actually works those late hours: I find it strange that he used to be able to afford taking you on trips when he worked less, but now that he works more, he isn't. You sure there's definitely no affair etc?)
Sounds like he's a doctor? Find it strange a doctor can not afford going on a trip together and also that he can't cut down on his work load.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> Ok so that's the difference and the problem as far as I can tell, not that he is now all of a sudden taking your marriage for granted (provided that he actually works those late hours: I find it strange that he used to be able to afford taking you on trips when he worked less, but now that he works more, he isn't. You sure there's definitely no affair etc?)
> 
> Sounds like he's a doctor? Find it strange a doctor can not afford going on a trip together and also that he can't cut down on his work load.




He's a resident. He makes nothing and he has a ton of student loans. Yes I work full time.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> Oh and he's definitely at work when he comes back late?




According to him he is.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Unless he reduces his workload, I don't really see how he can make the time. The work hours seem inhumane.
How was he able to afford taking you on trips previously?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

katiecrna said:


> As an attempt not to hijack the respect thread, I thought I would make this one and ask this question...
> 
> When your married, should sex be given or earned?


Neither imo, it should not be so transactional (unless you are talking about a ONS or paying for it). In a loving relationship it should be a shared experience although sometimes esp in the case of quickies it might be a bit of giving and taking depending on H's desire for release for example.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> Unless he reduces his workload, I don't really see how he can make the time. The work hours seem inhumane.
> How was he able to afford taking you on trips previously?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




This was before I went to school. I worked full time and the 2 of us made ok money. Then I went to school for a little over 2 years full time all real round and I couldn't really work.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

katiecrna said:


> This was before I went to school. I worked full time and the 2 of us made ok money. Then I went to school for a little over 2 years full time all real round and I couldn't really work.


Katie, it sounds like your H is a workaholic, there are men like this, they get the girl, get married then leave her to go off and pursue work goals. He is in a demanding job for sure but I think he has to see the reality of his marriage, he is about to lose you.
The game you play by not having sex, will only make the disconnect deeper though I can understand he is not meeting your needs for conversation and time. The more you demand, the more he will pull away and feel he is a failure at home as well as work, hence the 'oh woe is me' attitude.

I would suggest you first read a book called Every Woman's Marriage by Sharon Ethridge. (It is written from a Christian perspective but the problems are universal I would say).

A marriage is not about score keeping or 'tit for tat', it is really about being sacrificial. You are doing that right now, your approach is not working.

You have to decide
1. Do you want to remain married to this man in this lifestyle, I guess when he qualifies, it wont get better
2. Stay with him and try and work on your side of the marriage, that is all you can do, be the best you can be, do the best you can, support him the best you can. A different approach to show your love and support may do wonders for him, it will require work but is not impossible.
3. It is clear now, you are keeping score, he will know it too, that only leads to the destruction of the marriage and both being miserable.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

katiecrna said:


> Like I was saying before, we all want a happy spouse, yet we stop doing things that make them happy. Whether that means having great sex, or big romantic gestures. Why do we stop doing things that make them happy? At some point along the way someone stops doing something, something is expected and not given, and there is no longer equal effort, someone isn't appreciated etc.
> 
> For me, being the biased women that I am... I feel like those romantic little things that the husbands use to do in the beginning go out the window, yet sex is still expected from the women. *So to answer WOLFs question, what happens first, the chicken or the egg, I know that it was my husbands actions that stopped first.*


*Having employed that analogy, exactly what would you suppose predicated your husband's actions stopping first?*


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

arbitrator said:


> *Having employed that analogy, exactly what would you suppose predicated your husband's actions stopping first?*




I don't understand what your asking.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

. . .


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

katiecrna said:


> I don't understand what you're asking.


*Simply put, if it wasn't, in any way, your fault, then what occurrence might have predicated your H to quit wanting sex first?*


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

arbitrator said:


> *Simply put, if it wasn't, in any way, your fault, then what occurrence might have predicated your H to quit wanting sex first?*




He didn't stop wanting sex. He stopped doing nice things for me and he stopped doing things that made me happy. And after 2 years of this, I got tired of it and I stopped wanting sex from him Bc of it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

katiecrna said:


> He didn't stop wanting sex. He stopped doing nice things for me and he stopped doing things that made me happy. And after 2 years of this, I got tired of it and I stopped wanting sex from him Bc of it.


Did he ever say why he stopped doing nice things for you and things that made you happy?

Sorry if you mentioned this already in the thread.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

jld said:


> Did he ever say why he stopped doing nice things for you and things that made you happy?
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry if you mentioned this already in the thread.




No he denies it. Says he is just busy with work and stressed.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> As an attempt not to hijack the respect thread, I thought I would make this one and ask this question...
> 
> When your married, should sex be given or earned?


I don't think it has to be given but I think it is a good idea if it is sometimes. Just like you don't have to bring home flowers but it is always a good idea to do that every once in a while. Personally I want my wife to want to have sex with me because she enjoys it as much as I do and because she understands it's power to create bonding and peace in my nature. Harmony may be a better word for that. Harmony with her and even with myself. Just like I want her to tell me about her day when she is upset because I know this calms her and gives her peace of mind. Like I know that her coming home to a clean house give her harmony. I almost always clean the house when she goes on a work trip for instance. My mother taught me that. Now I know some women are slobs but my wife keeps an impeccable house. It is a very big part of her homemaking nature. I therefor have figured out that me contributing to that creates a sense of piece for her. Not saying I am spectacular at it. I still leave my socks out ever once and a while. Sex does this for me. That to me is healthy.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> Mens sex is wrapped up in their ego and visual attraction for their spouse and other things.


This is a very poor understanding of a man's sexual nature and will probably lead to problems in your marriage. Frankly as a man I find it insulting. Wrapped up in my ego! Sex for most men is very much a part of bonding with his wife. Just like emotional talks are with lots of women. 

It's hard to describe but you know the feeling you have when your husband says or does something that you know shows that he is bonded to you. The thing that they show int he movies that makes all the girls go aww? The thing that women say make them want to jump his bones? That is what sex and his wife sexuality is for a man, assuming he has a healthy sexual nature. Just her exposing her true sexuality to him is a very big deal and very bonding. 

When a man's wife is passionate for him, and tries to be sexy and adventurous for him that is one of the big things that makes him crazy for her. It should and will make most men burn for her. It also settles his mind and make him deeply treasure her and want to gently take care of her. Having sex and more importantly knowing my wife wants to have sex with me makes me feel very strong emotionally. It makes me want to run through fire for her. 

By the way this is not me advocating for you to have sex with you husband whenever he wants. But it is me saying that it needs to be as much a priority to you as it should be for him to make sure that your emotional needs are met. Usually as I understand that, that means communication (deep talks), making you a priority such as helping around the house or just doing things that he should know take pressure off of you without you asking. Doing fun stuff with you (but that one I think is more for both of you). In the same way, you opening up to him sexual for instance when he is under stress is a great way to show him you love him and release the stress.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> My husband works a ton like 80-100hrs a week and is often under a tremendous amount of stress and is always sleep deprived. So sometimes when I'm in the mood and I initiate, he just physically can't get it up Bc of exhaustion or whatever. And it ends up being embarrassing and frustrating for both of us, and i end up feeling bad about myself and so does he.
> Sometimes I am not in the mood because of multiple reasons, and there have been times when I just tried to have sex but physically couldn't and it ended up being embarrassing and frustrating for the both of us leaving us both feelings bad.
> 
> So to me, if we're in the mood let's have sex. If we can't get in the mood, let's not even try.


katie, you married a surgeon right? I think I said this before to you it's like marring an entertainer or sports figure the amount of time you are going to get with someone that driven is going to be limited. You seem to prize the fact that this is what he does but in almost all your post there is a hint of you being very lonely. 

Is this what is really going on? I mean if you never see him I can't really blame you for not wanting to just jump in bed with him. 

I think you are in a very hard part of your marriage when he is establishing his career. But I suspect it will eventually slow down after he is established.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> For me, being the biased women that I am... I feel like those romantic little things that the husbands use to do in the beginning go out the window, yet sex is still expected from the women. So to answer WOLFs question what happens first the chicken or the egg, I know that it was my husbands actions that stopped first.


This doesn't have to be the case not all husbands do that. Some of us get that she needs it. Have you told him this?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

sokillme said:


> katie, you married a surgeon right? I think I said this before to you it's like marring an entertainer or sports figure the amount of time you are going to get with someone that driven is going to be limited. You seem to prize the fact that this is what he does but in almost all your post there is a hint of you being very lonely.
> 
> Is this what is really going on? I mean if you never see him I can't really blame you for not wanting to just jump in bed with him.
> 
> I think you are in a very hard part of your marriage when he is establishing his career. But I suspect it will eventually slow down after he is established.


I think she has posted in other threads that she has tried to initiate opportunities for sex, but he did not seem interested.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

jld said:


> I think she has posted in other threads that she has tried to initiate opportunities for sex, but he did not seem interested.


Yeah I remember, this one seems to now be that he wants to have sex and she isn't feeling it. Again I can only think about 3 or 4 careers it would be harder to be married to then a surgeon. Politician, traveling salesman or some other career that involves lots of travel, military, entertainer or sports figure. I put this right up there on that level at least for the first 10 years I would think, until you can start a private practice and have some more control over your hours.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

@katiecrna

I think what is going on with your marriage, is beyond the scope of "Sex, given or earned?"

I think your issues are definitely related to your husband's high-powered career. Most people don't operate at this level; they have jobs, that they may occasionally have to work OT hours.

I was friends with a woman who was married to a surgeon. Her main emotional connection was with her son. Not that that would happen to you; but it might be worthwhile to think forward and consider what things will be like in the future. Would children be a suitable emotional substitute -not my cup of tea, but many,many women get more emotional satisfaction from children, than from their husband.


My personal response to the thread question, is that sex should be given by both. The exceptions are: health issues or acts that one partner finds a turn-off. Also, if my husband was cheating I'd find the thought of sex with him repulsive---but as soon as you cheat, the marriage is over anyway.


katiecrna---when your H can't have sex with you; I assume that means no erection, because he's exhausted or distracted. What about other options; oral, manual? Maybe you already answered that, sorry if I missed it. Oral and manual sex can't hold a candle to PiV; but it's better than nothing; and it does give an emotional connection.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

jld said:


> It should be *inspired*.


Everytme?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

chillymorn69 said:


> Everytme?


Yes.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> I have a million times! That's my point, he thinks because we are married I should be having Sex with him. And the kicker is... I have told him 100x do not ask me to have Sex, it makes me feel bad and the answer will be no. And he still asks me.


So he should just rape you?

Oh I get it you want him to put effort into turning you on . But that gets old when you put effort into trying to turn on your wife and in the end you still might get turned down. 


I think a career change might help your situation. When you work in a hospital they don't care about their employees just charging their patients insurance companies. Er dept,icu 's,cath labs, they all work their employees to death and its very stressfull


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

jld said:


> Yes.


Thats not pratical.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

chillymorn69 said:


> Thats not pratical.


I guess we disagree.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

jld said:


> Yes.


Are you not inspired by a honest hard working man who loves you?


Do you need somesort of extra emotional validation to feel horny for your honest hard working man who loves you?


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

I know if he REALLY loved you he would do it because you are just wired that way....or read to many romance novels 


And hes thinking if she really loved and desired me she would just. Want to have sex.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

chillymorn69 said:


> Are you not inspired by a honest hard working man who loves you?
> 
> 
> Do you need somesort of extra emotional validation to feel horny for your honest hard working man who loves you?


I am indeed inspired. And the more investment he makes in me, the closer I feel (and want to be) to him.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

jld said:


> I am indeed inspired. And the more investment he makes in me, the closer I feel (and want to be) to him.


So its not good enough you need more. How do you recpricate by investing in him?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

chillymorn69 said:


> So its not good enough you need more. How do you recpricate by investing in him?


 @Duguesclin, would you like to respond to this?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

katiecrna said:


> He's a resident. He makes nothing and he has a ton of student loans. Yes I work full time.


Residents do get paid. 

I hope 😑


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

No one is owed sex. Whatever is given should be given from the heart. 

A hard honest working man is not owed anything. Whatever his wife gives to him needs to come from her heart, not to pacify his sense of entitlement.

I get a lot from JLD. She committed to our family and she cares for me. She is interested in me. She is there for me and the kids.

Yes, there is sex, but it is the cherry on the cake, not the flour.

This idea of transactional relationship is so unhealthy.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Some people are very secure, independent, emotionally mature and have little request and need from their spouse.
Some people are less secure, more sensitive/emotional/needy and require "more" to feel loved.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Duguesclin said:


> No one is owed sex. Whatever is given should be given from the heart.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I agree with you.
I literally had this conversation with my husband last night. Marriage is the cake, it's the foundation, sex is the icing on top. with no foundation there is no sex. But my husband thinks because he works hard and blah blah that he "deserves" sex. Some people just view it differently which is why I stated this thread. 

And this is where my husband and I have a disconnection. It also makes me think of this new generation and how men need to bring more to the table than just a paycheck. It's 2017... I work hard too and I make good money too.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

sokillme said:


> This is a very poor understanding of a man's sexual nature and will probably lead to problems in your marriage. Frankly as a man I find it insulting. Wrapped up in my ego! Sex for most men is very much a part of bonding with his wife. Just like emotional talks are with lots of women.
> 
> It's hard to describe but you know the feeling you have when your husband says or does something that you know shows that he is bonded to you. The thing that they show int he movies that makes all the girls go aww? The thing that women say make them want to jump his bones? That is what sex and his wife sexuality is for a man, assuming he has a healthy sexual nature. Just her exposing her true sexuality to him is a very big deal and very bonding.
> 
> ...




Sorry if that's offensive to you but I'm sticking to my guns. Generally speaking Emotions are wrapped up more with women and sex, and egos are wrapped up more with men. 
That is why it's hard for women to not get attached when they have a sexual relationship. Some can, most can't.
That is why men can have performance anxiety. That is why that new study came out about men making women achieve orgasms as a way to boost their ego not because they want them to have orgasms.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

john117 said:


> Residents do get paid.
> 
> I hope




They do. We live in NYC and the rent is crazy high here. He gets paid like $50,000.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Katie, just to clarify, it seems like you went from a situation where for a while you were trying to have sex with him and he did not want it, to a situation where he wants to have sex with you and you do not want it. Is that correct?


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

jld said:


> Katie, just to clarify, it seems like you went from a situation where for a while you were trying to have sex with him and he did not want it, to a situation where he wants to have sex with you and you do not want it. Is that correct?




Yes you are correct.
Something happened that made me snap out of that. No he did not cheat on me, he did not abuse me. And no I don't want to get into it. It's his usual bull****. 
His last friend is reaching out to me, his family is reaching out to me, he is just being a selfish jerk to everyone it seems. He honestly is going looney. He literally told me that he is so miserable, work is too much, and he is constantly disappointing me and his family and blah blah more victim talk. I point blank asked him what he thinks the problem is? (We all know the problem but he doesn't), and he said... my marriage, my parents, and my work. I was blown away, I legit think he's looney. I said take all those away and you have nothing and your alone. He just doesn't get it. It's everyone else, never him.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

jld said:


> @Duguesclin, would you like to respond to this?


ahh the old deflection when the question is tough!


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

Duguesclin said:


> No one is owed sex. Whatever is given should be given from the heart.
> 
> A hard honest working man is not owed anything. Whatever his wife gives to him needs to come from her heart, not to pacify his sense of entitlement.
> 
> ...


are you not committed to your family as much as her? and are they not making it transactional by stating I can't have sex with my man unless he jumps through my hoops?


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

He can't handle conflict. He can't handle feeling like a disappointment. The more he feels like this, the more he isolates himself and shuts off from the world and works more. 

At first you feel bad for him but seriously don't. All his parents want is for a phone call. That's it! All I want is some time , that's it! I tried to explain to him that all relationships take work and time and effort. And yea it might be hard at times but when it's your time and you need them they will be there. 

There has been multiple occasions recently were he jolted his family. And they are a close Italian family and they are mad. 
He has an expectation that family is suppose to be there, always be nice, a wife is suppose to always be there and happy always, but he doesn't have to do anything. He can neglect everyone and he still expects them to be there. 
He's losing it seriously. I tried talking to him yesterday and he just doesn't understand what I am trying to say. There is a huge disconnect.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

chillymorn69 said:


> ahh the old deflection when the question is tough!


Why is it deflection? 

Who better than my spouse to say how I give to him?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

katiecrna said:


> He can't handle conflict. He can't handle feeling like a disappointment. The more he feels like this, the more he isolates himself and shuts off from the world and works more.
> 
> At first you feel bad for him but seriously don't. All his parents want is for a phone call. That's it! All I want is some time , that's it! I tried to explain to him that all relationships take work and time and effort. And yea it might be hard at times but when it's your time and you need them they will be there.
> 
> ...


Do you think his job is just too much for him?

It seems like that has been the big change in his life.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

jld said:


> Do you think his job is just too much for him?
> 
> 
> 
> It seems like that has been the big change in his life.




It's a combination of a bunch of things that is all coming together. It's part who he is and what he struggles with... passive aggressive, fears conflict, he's stubborn and prideful, and hates disappointing people, terrible with communication, selfishness. And it's that on top of dealing with stress at work, being verbally abused at work. He says he works his ass off and still gets yelled at and it's never good enough from his attendings. He HATES disappointing people so it drives me mad when he gets yelled at at work. He's sleep deprived. And now he comes home and his relationships with his wife and family and friends are failing. He feels like it's everyone against him. And when we try to talk to him about it, he can't handle it. Like he doesn't hear what we are saying. All he hears is he's a terrible person and he is wrong. He gets defensive and we never have a conversation that is normal. 
I tried last night again and it was a fail. It's like he doesn't understand, but he doesn't seem to try to care to understand. It's like he doesn't really care because he thinks he's does the best he can, and we don't understand the pressure he is under blah blah blah. 

In his perfect world he would want us all to shut up, always be happy, have no needs because he can't handle conflict or addressing issues. He wants to continue to do what he wants to do regardless of how it makes us feel. But he wants us not to feel the way we feel, he wants us to just always be happy.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

katiecrna said:


> It's a combination of a bunch of things that is all coming together. It's part who he is and what he struggles with... passive aggressive, fears conflict, he's stubborn and prideful, and hates disappointing people, terrible with communication, selfishness. And it's that on top of dealing with stress at work, being verbally abused at work. He says he works his ass off and still gets yelled at and it's never good enough from his attendings. He HATES disappointing people so it drives me mad when he gets yelled at at work. He's sleep deprived. And now he comes home and his relationships with his wife and family and friends are failing. He feels like it's everyone against him. And when we try to talk to him about it, he can't handle it. Like he doesn't hear what we are saying. All he hears is he's a terrible person and he is wrong. He gets defensive and we never have a conversation that is normal.
> I tried last night again and it was a fail. It's like he doesn't understand, but he doesn't seem to try to care to understand. It's like he doesn't really care because he thinks he's does the best he can, and we don't understand the pressure he is under blah blah blah.
> 
> In his perfect world he would want us all to shut up, always be happy, have no needs because he can't handle conflict or addressing issues. He wants to continue to do what he wants to do regardless of how it makes us feel. But he wants us not to feel the way we feel, he wants us to just always be happy.


He sounds pretty emotionally fragile. At least imo.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Here is an example. I try to talk to him very directly about me not feeling loved. And that I need to feel loved by him for me to have sex with him. And that it hurts my feelings when he asks me to have sex Bc it makes me feel unloved, and like I'm not worth effort. I give him examples of things he can do that make me feel loved... in the end he spends time and energy trying to convince me to change how I feel basically. Like he try's to convince me that how I feel is wrong. Instead of putting time and energy in doing the things I ask. It's so frustrating. And then the next day he's like... do you wanna have sex?
And it's so exhausting and emotionally draining to always explain stuff to him and he still doesn't get it.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

jld said:


> He sounds pretty emotionally fragile. At least imo.




He is. He is super insecure and super sensitive but he is insensitive to other people's needs. He would rather be all alone then deal with conflict and feeling like he is making people unhappy. It's really crazy to me. And he is too stubborn to go and listen to a therapist.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

katiecrna said:


> Here is an example. I try to talk to him very directly about me not feeling loved. And that I need to feel loved by him for me to have sex with him. And that it hurts my feelings when he asks me to have sex Bc it makes me feel unloved, and like I'm not worth effort. I give him examples of things he can do that make me feel loved... in the end he spends time and energy trying to convince me to change how I feel basically. Like he try's to convince me that how I feel is wrong. Instead of putting time and energy in doing the things I ask. It's so frustrating. And then the next day he's like... do you wanna have sex?
> And it's so exhausting and emotionally draining to always explain stuff to him and he still doesn't get it.


I am sure it is frustrating. 

He sounds like a man who needs his wife to first meet his needs in order for him to respond, and it sounds like you need him to do the same for you in order to be able to respond.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

katiecrna said:


> He is. He is super insecure and super sensitive but he is insensitive to other people's needs. He would rather be all alone then deal with conflict and feeling like he is making people unhappy. It's really crazy to me. And he is too stubborn to go and listen to a therapist.


That would not work for me. I am too insecure and sensitive myself.

Dug is the opposite of me and so our pairing works for us.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

jld said:


> I am sure it is frustrating.
> 
> 
> 
> He sounds like a man who needs his wife to first meet his needs in order for him to respond, and it sounds like you need him to do the same for you in order to be able to respond.




Wow that's a very good pickup. Your 100% right. We didn't start having problems until I went to school and I needed more from him, and I couldn't meet his needs as much. 
For me though, my needs weren't being met for years but I put my big girl pants on and supported him through this residency knowing that my needs may come second. But when I went to school, that changed everything. I needed him to suck it up a little and support me through this short 2 years (compared to his residency). We damaged our relationship in the process and here we are. 
The problem is I can recognize it and admit that I neglected the marriage and I was part of its downfall and I apologize and try to talk about how to went bad and what we can do. But he can't communicate the same sentiment.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

katiecrna said:


> Wow that's a very good pickup. Your 100% right. We didn't start having problems until I went to school and I needed more from him, and I couldn't meet his needs as much.
> For me though, my needs weren't being met for years but I put my big girl pants on and supported him through this residency knowing that my needs may come second. But when I went to school, that changed everything. I needed him to suck it up a little and support me through this short 2 years (compared to his residency). We damaged our relationship in the process and here we are.
> The problem is I can recognize it and admit that I neglected the marriage and I was part of its downfall and I apologize and try to talk about how to went bad and what we can do. But he can't communicate the same sentiment.


I think you are right. I don't think he is wired that way.

Even if he can learn some better communication skills, I think he will always leave the basic leadership of the marriage to you. 

I have heard other women say similar things. Many have mentioned that they were fine with this arrangement until they had children. Their husbands still expected their wives to put them first. 

But babies and little kids are pretty needy. The husbands often became resentful at no longer being the priority and having their needs met first. 

The moms just felt burnt out at both ends, with no one really looking out for them except themselves.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

I mentioned in the "who should pay for dates" thread that entitlement turns me off, unless it's mutually agreed upon entitlement. 

In our marriage sex is an entitlement. We went into marriage both agreeing upon that. Neither of us entered into a lifelong contract of sexual fidelity with the hope of sex, but the expectation of it. 

Entitlement doesn't mean sex-on-demand. It means that there's no such thing as a hard "no", just a "not right now", with the expectation that sex will happen regularly, and genuinely; no "duty" sex. If one, or both, of us is at a place where we want sex less, we discuss that and deal with the root issue, which is almost never about the sex.

If I was looking for a life time of earning sex through negotiation, I would've stayed single. There's no point in vowing to forsake all others, for the sake of one, if I'm spending the rest of my natural existence trying to win or earn sex. Thankfully my wife feels the same.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

To me marriage is a chain that ties people together (hopefully in a good way). Sex is one of the links. It is no more important than the others, but like several others it is necessary for the chain to stay together. No amount of strengthening on link reduces the need for the others.

Affection, support, respect, chores at home and / or work outside. etc etc. The marriage can't function well without all of them. 




katiecrna said:


> I agree with you.
> I literally had this conversation with my husband last night. Marriage is the cake, it's the foundation, sex is the icing on top. with no foundation there is no sex. But my husband thinks because he works hard and blah blah that he "deserves" sex. Some people just view it differently which is why I stated this thread.
> 
> And this is where my husband and I have a disconnection. It also makes me think of this new generation and how men need to bring more to the table than just a paycheck. It's 2017... I work hard too and I make good money too.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

jaquen said:


> I mentioned in the Respect thread that entitlement turns me off, unless it's mutually agreed upon entitlement.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I agree with you. 
The problem comes IMO when the root issue isn't addressed. And after multiple attempts to address it, it continues to be dismissed. 
You speak from a very normal healthy dynamic. Not everyone is this lucky. 
It's about communication and coming to an agreement like mature adults. I have tried to have a mature discussion multiple times with my husband to address the root issue that is causing the lack of Sex and it's failed. Keeps failing. I tried again last night and he didn't get it, the issue remains unaddressed and therefore there is no sex.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

katiecrna said:


> Well no offense but you probably haven't killed a patient before. Or been verbally abused by your boss while working 100 hrs a week. You probably haven't told a wife and kids that their husband and father may never wake up again.


Thank you.

I'm going to provide a different context than what I've seen from TAM in the past. I, a man, have no problem turning down sex. It doesn't even have to be for a dire or serious reason; sometimes I really just ain't in the mood. Sometimes my wife will "seduce" me if she really wants it, doesn't take much effort to get me to change my mind, or sometimes she lets it be. She's the same way. We just don't treat sex like this dire thing that MUST happen now, or else. Sex will happen, it's a given, so it doesn't need to happen at times when one of us just might not be feeling it.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

jaquen said:


> Thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to provide a different context than what I've seen from TAM in the past. I, a man, have no problem turning down sex. It doesn't even have to be for a dire or serious reason; sometimes I really just ain't in the mood. Sometimes my wife will "seduce" me if she really wants it, doesn't take much effort to get me to change my mind, or sometimes she lets it be. She's the same way. We just don't treat sex like this dire thing that MUST happen now, or else. Sex will happen, it's a given, so it doesn't need to happen at times when one of us just might not be feeling it.




Again, you are too rational and mature. What happens if your wife does treat Sex like a dire thing that has to happen now. And she gets mad and frustrated at you when you don't want to have sex? What if your wife is unhappy with the amount of sex she has with you and is constantly complaining about it, but you feel maxed out on the amount of Sex you can have.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

katiecrna said:


> Again, you are too rational and mature. What happens if your wife does treat Sex like a dire thing that has to happen now. And she gets mad and frustrated at you when you don't want to have sex? What if your wife is unhappy with the amount of sex she has with you and is constantly complaining about it, but you feel maxed out on the amount of Sex you can have.


That would represent a radical departure from who she is, and what we agreed upon prior to marriage, so main concern would be not about sex, but getting to the bottom of her sudden departure. We talk exhaustively about our feelings, if there's reason to; we've done that since we were just friends, back in our teen years. 

And, at given times, we've both been unsatisfied with the amount of sex we're having. In fact, due to a couple factors, right now we're only having sex 1-2 times a week, where we'd rather 3-4, and we use to have more. What do we do? Identify the issue, try to course correct, check in if changes aren't happening, but give each other time, and space, to work out whatever. We've both learned to understand that sex can ebb and flow, and that nobody is keeping score but us. That use to be a huge thing for us, feeling like we needed to live up to some objective standard. It's not always perfect, there have been rare moments of frustration, usually on my part, but we work it through and get over it. 95% of the time if one of us feels like we're not getting enough the other feels the same way.

I also wouldn't have married a "constant complainer". That's a character trait, one easily discernible long before we married. It's not who she is as a person, and it's never been.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> It's a combination of a bunch of things that is all coming together. It's part who he is and what he struggles with... passive aggressive, fears conflict, he's stubborn and prideful, and hates disappointing people, terrible with communication, selfishness. And it's that on top of dealing with stress at work, being verbally abused at work. He says he works his ass off and still gets yelled at and it's never good enough from his attendings. He HATES disappointing people so it drives me mad when he gets yelled at at work. He's sleep deprived. And now he comes home and his relationships with his wife and family and friends are failing. He feels like it's everyone against him. And when we try to talk to him about it, he can't handle it. Like he doesn't hear what we are saying. All he hears is he's a terrible person and he is wrong. He gets defensive and we never have a conversation that is normal.
> I tried last night again and it was a fail. It's like he doesn't understand, but he doesn't seem to try to care to understand. It's like he doesn't really care because he thinks he's does the best he can, and we don't understand the pressure he is under blah blah blah.
> 
> In his perfect world he would want us all to shut up, always be happy, have no needs because he can't handle conflict or addressing issues. He wants to continue to do what he wants to do regardless of how it makes us feel. But he wants us not to feel the way we feel, he wants us to just always be happy.


It sounds like he's under tons of pressure from his job. Maybe view it as a temporary period in his career?
Discuss a possibility to lessen his load (the work load that is). If both of you work and you don't have kids (?) then it should be financially possible, even in NYC. Are you in charge of budget or does he do that kind of stuff?


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## TheRealMcCoy (Apr 13, 2017)

Sex is given. GOOD sex is earned.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> Sorry if that's offensive to you but I'm sticking to my guns. Generally speaking Emotions are wrapped up more with women and sex, and egos are wrapped up more with men.
> That is why it's hard for women to not get attached when they have a sexual relationship. Some can, most can't.
> That is why men can have performance anxiety. That is why that new study came out about men making women achieve orgasms as a way to boost their ego not because they want them to have orgasms.


I think that is a very poor generalization and I hope it doesn't come back to hurt you. If you don't understand how much emotion is tied up in most men having sex with their wives the you are in for some trouble IMHO. Ask lots of men what is the primary way they feel love with their wives and they are going to say sex. Ask them when they feel closest to their wives and again they are going to say sex. What could be more emotional than that. 

As far as performance anxiety the only times I ever had issues (It's happened to every guy, and if it hasn't it will) it was always entirely emotionally driven, never anything to do with my ego. 

You understanding of men seems to be under the guise of the stereotypical frat boy, emotionally immature type man. Now if you married a guy like that then I am sorry for you, but lots of us were never like that. I am a man who has never had sex with someone I wasn't in love with. Even still a frat boy who marries and bonds with his wife is going to feel closest to his wife during sex. 

Now if you are saying you need to be emotionally connected to be turned on more then a man does I agree with you. But a man uses sex to become emotionally connected, I think that might be what you are missing. I see it working like a Catherine wheel firework to function right. Think of each rocket on each side as being the husband and the wife, the man has sex and then feels comfortable and desire to express emotion, the women uses that emotion to feel comfortable giving sex. 

Anyway my two sense.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> Yes you are correct.
> Something happened that made me snap out of that.


You resent the fact that he didn't want to have sex with you when you were offering it to him.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> It's a combination of a bunch of things that is all coming together. It's part who he is and what he struggles with... passive aggressive, fears conflict, he's stubborn and prideful, and hates disappointing people, terrible with communication, selfishness. And it's that on top of dealing with stress at work, being verbally abused at work. He says he works his ass off and still gets yelled at and it's never good enough from his attendings. He HATES disappointing people so it drives me mad when he gets yelled at at work. He's sleep deprived. And now he comes home and his relationships with his wife and family and friends are failing. He feels like it's everyone against him. And when we try to talk to him about it, he can't handle it. Like he doesn't hear what we are saying. All he hears is he's a terrible person and he is wrong. He gets defensive and we never have a conversation that is normal.
> I tried last night again and it was a fail. It's like he doesn't understand, but he doesn't seem to try to care to understand. It's like he doesn't really care because he thinks he's does the best he can, and we don't understand the pressure he is under blah blah blah.
> 
> In his perfect world he would want us all to shut up, always be happy, have no needs because he can't handle conflict or addressing issues. He wants to continue to do what he wants to do regardless of how it makes us feel. But he wants us not to feel the way we feel, he wants us to just always be happy.


Maybe you should try to inspire him. 

.
.
.
.
.


That was a joke. >


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> Here is an example. I try to talk to him very directly about me not feeling loved. And that I need to feel loved by him for me to have sex with him. And that it hurts my feelings when he asks me to have sex Bc it makes me feel unloved, and like I'm not worth effort. I give him examples of things he can do that make me feel loved... in the end he spends time and energy trying to convince me to change how I feel basically. Like he try's to convince me that how I feel is wrong. Instead of putting time and energy in doing the things I ask. It's so frustrating. And then the next day he's like... do you wanna have sex?
> And it's so exhausting and emotionally draining to always explain stuff to him and he still doesn't get it.


This is sad. I absolutely love making my wife feel loved (call it romance or whatever, but it's not really that because it can be as simple as going out and getting something at the store so she doesn't have to). I love doing that for everyone I love. That I admit is partly ego driven. It's like solving a puzzle. However if you feel like you are being taken for granted you don't feel like doing it. I suspect this is how some women feel about sex. 

I also wonder if you did feel very loved if he said to you, I am so stressed and would really love to have sex, if you feel that he was always doing things to make you feel love you would jump at the chance. 

Again so sad. How old are you guys?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> Wow that's a very good pickup. Your 100% right. We didn't start having problems until I went to school and I needed more from him, and I couldn't meet his needs as much.
> For me though, my needs weren't being met for years but I put my big girl pants on and supported him through this residency knowing that my needs may come second. But when I went to school, that changed everything. I needed him to suck it up a little and support me through this short 2 years (compared to his residency). We damaged our relationship in the process and here we are.
> The problem is I can recognize it and admit that I neglected the marriage and I was part of its downfall and I apologize and try to talk about how to went bad and what we can do. But he can't communicate the same sentiment.


Don't have kids yet.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Not to be blunt, but from reading this and your other threads it honestly sounds like your Husband simply cannot pursue his career in the manner he wants AND be the husband you want at the same time. I don't see this as a fault of his or yourself, just life and circumstances. If I had to guess, your H sees it that his job is for you, he is doing all this to hopefully provide a good life for you and any future kids. Your POV is the opposite, where his job is effectively replacing you. You can see why this would cause such a disconnect.

The question, do you just grit your teeth and ride out it, waiting for the inevitable "things will get better". They may very well get better, but the risk is your frustration/resentment will grow, and by the time things get "better" you guys may be so far apart there isn't anything left to save.

Sorry, not trying to be morbid at all lol. It is a tough situation to be in. I would guess as is, there is nothing your H can do with regards to his workload, and asking him to make a career change is not really feasible nor would I think he would be receptive to (honestly, if my W asked me to make a career change I would not be very receptive to as well).


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

sokillme said:


> You resent the fact that he didn't want to have sex with you when you were offering it to him.




Wrong. Be never refuses Sex with me.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> Wrong. Be never refuses Sex with me.


Well your other thread made it seem like you wanted sex but he didn't want it? Now you don't want him asking for it, so exactly what was going on in your other post if he wasn't refusing but you don't want him asking for it. How were you missing sex then exactly?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

brooklynAnn said:


> Definitely shared and given. I give myself with love and we share our loving making. I am sure my H gives himself to me.
> 
> He does not have to do anything to earn sex. In a loving, respectful marriage, you share. You want to give and receive.


I haven't read all the replies... but stopped here.. THIS IS the heart of it.. how I feel.. how I know he feels... there is a passion about it even. If I felt I had to "earn" his wanting / desiring to lay down with me, to share with me...it would demean the beauty of it somehow... 

Although I believe that sex is something special and should only be shared with someone we love, wanting to merge our lives together.. it's always been an act of Love and giving of ourselves.. but also for ourselves...it's the greatest pleasure ! I've always found making love "healing" somehow, connecting on the deepest level..... 

Marriage is about this... when we walk down the aisle to become one... this is what it's meant to be... a merging of our lives , a merging of our bodies , something special only we share... no matter what we are going through in life, craziness at work, kid stress, things falling apart around us... we have this to brighten our nights , our days somehow... this giving & receiving where we both long to go..


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Katie,
I give you a lot of credit for being so transparent on this thread. 

Companionship - turns out to be - like sex. The better it feels the more you want it. 

But in some ways it's like sex. When you are exhausted - physically and emotionally - the pain of conflict or disconnect is amplified. 

People with narrow comfort zones - have more stuff they want to talk about when reality collides with their comfort zones. 

After a very long work day - he doesn't want to talk about problems. 

And then you have an unfortunate but very real contrast. The 'mechanics' of his day - people living or maybe not. 

And some of the stuff you describe getting wound up about - people opening window shades / shutters in your apartment, cooking in your kitchen. 

So you are trying to teach him to engage in more quality time - non sexual touch - and he's trying to teach you to increase the ratio of emotionally positive conversation to emotionally draining/conflicted conversation. And he is apparently willing to tolerate little to no sex - to conserve whatever emotional energy he has left after work. 

There isn't any right or wrong to this - just what works and doesn't. 

And at least one of you has to have a sense of humor about this stuff. Without that - it is just bone on bone conflict. And his emotional pain threshold is lower than yours. 





katiecrna said:


> Wow that's a very good pickup. Your 100% right. We didn't start having problems until I went to school and I needed more from him, and I couldn't meet his needs as much.
> For me though, my needs weren't being met for years but I put my big girl pants on and supported him through this residency knowing that my needs may come second. But when I went to school, that changed everything. I needed him to suck it up a little and support me through this short 2 years (compared to his residency). We damaged our relationship in the process and here we are.
> The problem is I can recognize it and admit that I neglected the marriage and I was part of its downfall and I apologize and try to talk about how to went bad and what we can do. But he can't communicate the same sentiment.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

katiecrna said:


> It's part who he is and what he struggles with... passive aggressive, fears conflict, he's stubborn and prideful, and hates disappointing people, terrible with communication, selfishness. And it's that on top of dealing with stress at work, being verbally abused at work. He says he works his ass off and still gets yelled at and it's never good enough from his attendings. He HATES disappointing people so it drives me mad when he gets yelled at at work. He's sleep deprived. And now he comes home and his relationships with his wife and family and friends are failing. He feels like it's everyone against him. And when we try to talk to him about it, he can't handle it. Like he doesn't hear what we are saying. All he hears is he's a terrible person and he is wrong. He gets defensive and we never have a conversation that is normal.
> I tried last night again and it was a fail. It's like he doesn't understand, but he doesn't seem to try to care to understand. It's like he doesn't really care because he thinks he's does the best he can, and we don't understand the pressure he is under blah blah blah.
> 
> In his perfect world he would want us all to shut up, always be happy, have no needs because he can't handle conflict or addressing issues. He wants to continue to do what he wants to do regardless of how it makes us feel. But he wants us not to feel the way we feel, he wants us to just always be happy.




He's not going to change, this is who he is.

I would have sex with him;unless it is a positively unpleasant experience. I think it's flattering that he still wants to have sex with you; in spite of how massively tired and stressed out he is. I know you don't feel that way; I'm just saying----I think it's sexy that he wants sex.

But, what I really wanted to say, was that the clock ticks a bit faster for a woman. Do you want to have kids with *this* guy; and have your own career? Would you want to have a family, and stay home? Can you handle his personality longterm?

Cause if you can't; you need to make some decisions in the next year or so.

Once again, unless there is something outrightly nasty about sex with him; I would get together with him. You don't have to be a sexual all star; and he doesn't have to woo and romance you. Even "meh" sex has the effect of making you feel close. He is your husband; you do love him and feel attracted to him---or did at one point.


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## _anonymous_ (Apr 18, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> Sometimes men can't get an erection. Sometimes I can't get wet. When I can't get wet it's because I'm not in the mood.


Viagra, with some lube. Problems solved.

Being "in the mood" is the biggest cop-out in marriages everywhere, given (mainly) by detached wives to short their husbands of sex. Or, in other words, "I think something is more important than your wants/needs."

Rumor has is that if husband and wife are emotionally connected and have matched libidos, sex happens and it's all about fulfilling each other. For couples with mismatched libidos or behavioral problems, me thinks "earning sex" makes some sense.


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