# Women are better liars?



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Think men are the unfaithful sex? A study shows WOMEN are the biggest cheats - they're just better at lying about it | Daily Mail Online

Old article, but makes me curious...

Some quotes here:


> But while women's lives and sexual behaviour might have changed, their willingness to be honest about it hasn't.
> 
> The truth is that we have always lied about our sex lives. British men consistently claim to have had more partners than women - the current average is 13, while women claim to have had only nine.
> 
> ...


Also...



> Women are taught to lie from childhood. Those simple, altruistic lies such as saying we've had a lovely time when we haven't, that someone looks nice when she doesn't, or that we're delighted with a gift we don't really like, are just some of the small ways that lying oils the wheels of our social lives, keeps the peace, and makes other people happy.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


And...



> Historically, a man has put a higher value on the fidelity of his woman because he needs to be sure that any children she has are really his.
> 
> This seems to produce a strange kind of emotional blindness in many men, once they've selected a partner to settle down with.
> 
> ...


Makes me wonder really, as come to think of it I only trust very few women in my life, and even then it's always a case of "what I trust them to do" rather than "whether I trust them"... still I'm like that with EVERYONE so meh...

Ex-wife/Daughter, I trust however, ex-wife has earned it over many years. So I continue to hope that our daughter will grow up to understand the value of honesty.

What you guys think of these above quotes?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I think women and men can both be good at cheating and covering it up.

There are some masters of deception represented by both genders.
Maybe women have developed a less rigid form but that can be attributed to male/female differences in general.

Women tend towards more fluidity in their nature.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dread Pirate Roberts (May 22, 2012)

Sociopaths are better liars, male or female

DPR


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

"...British men consistently claim to have had more partners than women - the current average is 13, while women claim to have had only nine.

Plainly, someone is lying here. While men might exaggerate their sexual conquests, the bigger liars are women."

Actually, no it is not plainly obvious either one or the other is lying. As discussed on the "do women have easier time getting laid" thread, many guys including me believe that there is a disproportionate small handful of guys with high numbers of partners that skew the average up - and if that holds true in general I would suspect it would hold true in the reporting of the number of partners.

But I think it's entirely irrelevant to discussions about how discreet or honest either gender may be compared to the other.

I tend to go on a case by case basis - I suspect most people are capable, to some degree, of lying successfully to their spouse - I suspect most people have some level of susceptibility to cheating as well. I would imagine there is a strong correlation between these two characteristics in a person but I don't think I could make an overall determination that it's higher in one sex than the other. But I do suspect, which is also based on my own anecdotal observations of people in my social circles, that as the "gatekeepers" of sex if a woman did lie, cheat or steal from her H she is more likely to get away with it and/or escape the consequences more easily.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

I've always found men to be better liars. We tend to conceptualize better and anticipate problems.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

I've found the more socially adept person who is also the 'least into' the relationship seems to be the better liar.

I think men and women alike can view honesty as different things. There is no objectivity. MC taught me this -- some people view the world through an emotional lens, for example. So if something had no emotional meaning, it didn't happen, or didn't happen with any importance. 

Plus, a really big thing is how much time has passed. Human memory is a frail thing, if they've had time to re-write history in their own mind enough times they literally won't know what was 'true' any more.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

thatbpguy said:


> I've always found men to be better liars. We tend to conceptualize better and anticipate problems.


I don't lie often, but when I do... nobody ever had a clue. I am very selective and I know that lying takes a h3ll of a lot of work to not get caught because you have to be forever aware and vigilant about what you remembered telling people, who you told it too, who you suspect they may have told. I don't even remember what I have lied about even though it's only like 2 or 3 big ones I've ever told, because I was that immersed in it it's my reality now. It only ever took 2 or 3 times of lying to figure out it's never worth it, not even the little white lies.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Lon said:


> Actually, no it is not plainly obvious either one or the other is lying. As discussed on the "do women have easier time getting laid" thread, many guys including me believe that there is a disproportionate small handful of guys with high numbers of partners that skew the average up - and if that holds true in general I would suspect it would hold true in the reporting of the number of partners.
> 
> But I think it's entirely irrelevant to discussions about how discreet or honest either gender may be compared to the other.


I agree with your suspicion on the disproportionate distribution of number of partners. It isn't a bell curve. I suspect the median number of partners for men is _less than_ the median number of partners for women. At least in my generation and older. I don't have a good read on those in their 20's and 30's today. There is a group of men having sex with a lot of different women, driving up the average. The group of women having many different partners is, I believe, a smaller group than the men with lots of partners.


I also think the typical woman has at least one bad boy or ONS in her history she pretends didn't happen.

I think the average woman therefore lies about her past as a matter of course. Even as teens we see it with the boys bragging about everything ("I touched her bra!!!), whereas the girls are very circumspect.

Someone who has already lied about their sex life would be more practiced and comfortable with lying in the future about it. Since women already justify in their minds it is ok, necessary, and maybe even good to lie about their sex life, it may not be as big a leap for a woman as for a man to convincingly lie about inappropriate relationships outside of the marriage.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

I also believe that men are better at detecting lies from other men, and women are better at detecting lies from other women, than we are at detecting lies from the other gender.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Thor said:


> I also think the typical woman has at least one bad boy or ONS in her history she pretends didn't happen.
> 
> I think the average woman therefore lies about her past as a matter of course. Even as teens we see it with the boys bragging about everything ("I touched her bra!!!), whereas the girls are very circumspect.
> 
> Someone who has already lied about their sex life would be more practiced and comfortable with lying in the future about it. Since women already justify in their minds it is ok, necessary, and maybe even good to lie about their sex life, it may not be as big a leap for a woman as for a man to convincingly lie about inappropriate relationships outside of the marriage.


Yes, this is the point that hit me.

It also makes me wonder about the irony, of men who are quite adamant about their SO's "virginity" or "purity" or whatever they call it. By having such standards, it may force women to lie to cover up their tracks.

Ex-wife I trust completely, but I know she lies, her style is more of omission however, but has always shown honesty when it mattered to me, and that's about as much as I could ask from her, as I omit as well. She was met with disgust when she revealed her past sex life with several of her dates before she met me, and I would imagine it's a problem she may face to this day.

Society hasn't quite caught up with equality when it comes to female sexuality, women are still shamed for having many partners. It's just like any prohibition, you do nothing but push it underground.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Thor said:


> I also believe that men are better at detecting lies from other men, and women are better at detecting lies from other women, than we are at detecting lies from the other gender.


This I think is so true. I think it comes from the same gender being able to pick up on the verbal and no verbal cues.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

RandomDude said:


> It also makes me wonder about the irony, of men who are quite adamant about their SO's "virginity" or "purity" or whatever they call it. By having such standards, it may force women to lie to cover up their tracks.


 I think people should be who they are.. and not resort to lying in any way.. some things may be too personal to go there if early in a relationship.. but as it grows.. getting closer.. we should slowly be building trust..and can get deeper... 

IF this is something a man cares about.. he should aim for young love...and hopefully he's lived according to what he hopes to find in another... My husband cared.. 

I do NOT lie.. I abhor lying in others.. anyone I catch in just 1 lie.. I will consider them like the little boy who cried wolf.. ...everything that comes out of their mouth from then on.. it will be *suspect*.. the trust has been muddied... it's a guessing game.. 

As they could be lying about ANYTHING ...how they really feel... where they have been...what they REALLY want.. saying things just to pacify -the heart could be far from their mouth...










No, I'd rather have uncomfortable RAW moments, understand people aren't perfect.. (maybe it is a question of HOW GOOD do some people expect others to be -when they don't expect it of themselves)...... give me the heartfelt honest conflict anyday... I can work with that.. not the other. 

Does it even make sense to take pleasure in so called "being accepted" on a false pretense..what is that worth ....really??? 

By always being honest, which aligns with our consciences... it compels one to BE that better person..to reach higher... so when you Fvck up.. there is a humbleness there ...we can admit our humanness.. this makes us more relateable and usually allows for the other person to also put their guard down.. 

..In this.. it shows you respect the other person ...you are putting TRUST in them... if they want to stomp on that .. it speaks more about THEM.. to show what they are made of.. that's how I look at it.. at that point.. our self respect will (hopefully) pick us up. ..and we'll move on to another who would accept us for who we are .... where we are.. no masks.. 



> The Different Kinds of Lies You Tell
> 
> *1*. *White Lies* - People tell white lies claiming to be tactful or polite ...could be making up an excuse for not going to a party, or showing appreciation for an undesirable gift. But telling white lies after awhile can cause conflict with others because over time they understand the insincerity. That is why white liars can lose their credibility
> 
> ...


.........................


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

SA, just commenting on your list of types of lies, and I wouldn't consider a broken promise a lie unless (not especially) the promise itself was a lie and there was no intention to break it. If the intent was there it is not something I would consider a lie at all even if it was broken.

Also, wonder where "embellishing" fits into there - it seems like a little bit of 1,3 and 5?


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Honesty has its merits, opportunities present themselves so readily when you have trust, especially in the workplace. Your words are listened to, and hence you will find power behind them. Unfortunately, the majority of people lie often and consider it a part of life, especially in my city, as they can always disappear back into the crowd. I've met many other promising entrepreneurs, who unfortunately, learnt that the hard way. Years of work wasted, with misplaced trust. Same goes with marriage and relationships. There have been few who have earned my trust, I'm blessed to have an ex-wife who I do, otherwise I'll be worried sick for my daughter everyday.

Still, even though I consider her an honest sort, she lies by omission, as do I. These lies would come under "deception" perhaps, on your list SA. Lies of omission, or withholding truth, is part of life. I can't expect the public to treat me as a human being if I am open about the type of person I was and in some ways still am, nor do I expect ex-wife to find understanding amongst men easily when it comes to her sexual past. Most humans judge when they are incapable of understanding, and I see that everywhere, including here on this forum. Being yourself and being completely transparent isn't a luxury everyone can enjoy.

Hence when I look at this article, and when it says "women are better liars because they had to be" - for understandable reasons pointed out above, it makes me wonder if its truly their fault, or society's at large. Ex-wife was very transparent because she could trust that she could confide in me - I never judged her. She wasn't like this with many men before me, and it makes me wonder - what if those men loosened up? Showed more understanding - their wives/gfs could trust them enough to confide in them more, and hence their relationships may potentially suffer less damage from their skeletons in the closet.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

RandomDude said:


> what if those men loosened up? Showed more understanding - their wives/gfs could trust them enough to confide in them more, and hence their relationships may potentially suffer less damage from their skeletons in the closet.


:iagree:


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Lon said:


> SA, just commenting on your list of types of lies, and *I wouldn't consider a broken promise a lie unless (not especially) the promise itself was a lie and there was no intention to break it. If the intent was there it is not something I would consider a lie at all even if it was broken*.


 True...these aren't necessarily lies.. I think it's on the list because it was spoken but the person on the receiving end WILL FEEL LIKE IT WAS A LIE , it can hurt, when one is forgotten so easily.. If it was intentional.. there won't be an apology going forth.. which is very telling.. it speaks.... "Hey, you're not important, you're worth blowing off"... 

And if it was a screw up.. well any good person should be acknowledging that.. I was invited to a PicNic 2 weeks go.. I told my friend I'd be there.. ... Had my strawberry Pretzel salad in hand.... showed up at the Shelter when she said.... NO ONE WAS there! Thinking.. well she must have given me the wrong Sunday or something.. 

Here I see this friend yesterday at a Grad party.. .. she mentions I missed her PicNic.. here she was Late getting it started , Church ran a little later... I was too early.... so Well.. I kept my word.... I wanted her to know I didn't blow her off !

I try very hard to never do this.. 



> *Also, wonder where "embellishing" fits into there - it seems like a little bit of 1,3 and 5?*


Haven't heard that word in a long time.. Definition I found >>


> Embellish often has the positive meaning of adding something to make it more handsome or beautifully decorated. But, while adding bells to something looks great at first, after a couple of hours of bells ringing in the ears, what was meant to embellish and beautify can get annoying.
> 
> That's what can happen when you embellish by adding too many false or exaggerated details to a story. Embellishing with true, colorful details and vivid descriptions is what can really enhance the beauty of a story.


We have a guy friend who would do this.. 2 of them I know of.. he'd get a little carried away to the point. I'd just look at him in the face and say "I don't believe you".. I ticked him off a few times.... 

The other is a friends BF..he takes the CAKE !.. we laugh later to how outrageous some of the things he unloads on us is... then H will say he doesn't even care if it's not true.."they're good stories!" ...but I am thinking... that might be OK hanging out joking around - around a bonfire with a beer in your hand ....but if he was my BF, I wouldn't like all that BS...like lightning struck his Father.. he lost all his teeth...the family couldn't eat corn on the cob around him, he'd be in a rage since he had no teeth.. you're listening to all of this ... like









Honestly I have no idea if this man has teeth or not.. (not that it matters !).. I guess I just want to believe what I hear from people, yeah even stories..... sometimes I will call them out.. like really [email protected]$ Come on.. just to see how they react.. Still doesn't mean I believe them though. 

My H has added a slight embellishment here & there to the guys at work...I guess even he is guilty.. 

I guess I think Enough TRUTH is funny all on it's own...why the need to add anything.. . a good story teller can hold you in the palm of their hand...with just that.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

RandomDude said:


> Still, even though I consider her an honest sort, she lies by omission, as do I. These lies would come under "deception" perhaps, on your list SA. Lies of omission, or withholding truth, is part of life. I can't expect the public to treat me as a human being if I am open about the type of person I was and in some ways still am, nor do I expect ex-wife to find understanding amongst men easily when it comes to her sexual past. Most humans judge when they are incapable of understanding, and I see that everywhere, including here on this forum. Being yourself and being completely transparent isn't a luxury everyone can enjoy.


 I understand THIS.... and we have no NEED to be transparent with just acquaintances , even co-workers.. its just those we call *Close friends*.. those in our *inner circle.*. if we can't be our true selves around this circle we gather with , laugh , make memories with.. how sad would it be.. 

But true.. too many will take something personal.. .. spread it around to smear or put someone down.. it could affect Job prospects and many things... We must guard ourselves for our own well being/ our futures.. I can see why anyone would choose to NOT open up or share any more than necessary -given some things in one's history like former run in's with the law, etc... Most we can NOT trust with the vulnerable... it does have to be earned over many shared experiences & TIME. 



> Hence when I look at this article, and when it says "women are better liars because they had to be" - for understandable reasons pointed out above, it makes me wonder if its truly their fault, or society's at large. Ex-wife was very transparent because she could trust that she could confide in me - I never judged her. She wasn't like this with many men before me, and it makes me wonder - what if those men loosened up? Showed more understanding - their wives/gfs could trust them enough to confide in them more, and hence their relationships may potentially suffer less damage from their skeletons in the closet.


 I read little bits of the article.. I think men & women alike Fabricate and hide.. it's a very individual thing... I don't look at that as loosening up as you do..we all have the right to decide what sort of lifestyle is compatible with ours... and if the person has changed lifestyles (as your ex did -and I ADORE HER STORY, her courage, her spirit, all of it !!).... this gives them even a more powerful story to share ...

My Mother's good friend growing up.. she had a reputation.. baby out of wedlock.. the gamut (back in the 60's now)... who did she end up marrying.. the introverted Town VIRGIN.. my mother told me she WANTED A GUY LIKE THAT after all the Players .. and he loved her.. they had a passion for horses, built a farm together, she was honest & true to him till the day he died.. she collapsed.. I lived next to them growing up, their daughter one of my best friends.. one thing I can say about those 2 ... darn were they ever opposite in temperament (she was an extroverted Hell raiser and he was --well like my husband but even quieter) - and they had a dam* good marriage! 

.. It was all based on Honesty...Maybe more couples stories like that need shared..I don't know.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

I can't really disagree, you are correct we all have the right to decide what sort of lifestyle is compatible with ours. Still, I can't see why I shouldn't encourage more understanding amongst men for women's sexuality, especially if it leads to women in general being forced to lie and hide rather than confide.

Being transparent is liberating, to have the weight of your secrets and burdens being shared by someone else. It's a beautiful thing, one I miss. Limited transparency robs a relationship of its depth. Ex-wife was understanding for the most part, but several secrets I also kept from her (or tried anyway).


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

RandomDude said:


> I can't really disagree, you are correct we all have the right to decide what sort of lifestyle is compatible with ours. Still, I can't see why I shouldn't encourage more understanding amongst men for women's sexuality, especially if it leads to women in general being forced to lie and hide rather than confide.


I can't disagree with what you said but the highlighted part I might quibble with. I don't think anyone is ever forced to lie or cheat or steal. We are in complete control of how we react and respond to other people. Nobody forces me to do any of those things.

Women may feel unfairly scrutinized about certain things but they are not forced to lie. Aside from that, you make some valid points.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

It's a dilemma really, kinda like the witch trails in medieval Europe, refuse to confess and you drown, confess and they burn you alive! Now of course it's not so dramatic, but that's the catch 22 it seems women face, there are consequences either way. I don't know if I should expect more people to be honest, or to accept them as the liars they are due to the present climate of sexual intolerance when it comes to women's lack of "purity"(argh, what's that word I'm looking for... grrr, virginity? purity? there's another word... someone help me out)


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

I know I have always had the ability to be a good liar. I think primarily because I have always had the ability to be a good actor. If you can convince yourself you are playing a part, then it is easy to make a lie believable.


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## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

Lon said:


> "...British men consistently claim to have had more partners than women - the current average is 13, while women claim to have had only nine.
> 
> Plainly, someone is lying here. While men might exaggerate their sexual conquests, the bigger liars are women."
> 
> Actually, no it is not plainly obvious either one or the other is lying.



According to this NY Times article, Dr. David Gale, a *professor emeritus of mathematics *at Univ. California, Berkeley, says “Surveys and studies to the contrary notwithstanding, the *conclusion that men have substantially more sex partners than women is not and cannot be true for purely logical reasons*.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/12/weekinreview/12kolata.html?_r=0

If a professor of mathematics says it is essentially mathematically impossible for these surveys to be true if they show a disparity between the number of sex partners for men vs. women, then why should we believe these Infidelity surveys that show male/female difference in cheating? They are done the same way, so are just as likely to be false. (In fact, my inclination would be to assume they are even MORE likely to be false, as I think a typical person would be even MORE likely to lie about infidelity than sexual partner numbers.)

Basically, the whole methodology behind these surveys (anonymous recall surveys) are flawed if they return mathematically impossible results.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

The mathematicians are using the average, not the median. The prom example used where G=B is not applicable because it's a one time event that assumes all the girls dance all night which requires all guys to dance. When I went to prom, I danced once, most of my closest guy friends also danced just once if at all, yet all of our dates danced all night - and not with each other even. How is this possible? Because there were about three guys at my prom that each danced with pretty much every girl.

If you had a group of ten guys and ten girls, and one guy in the group, the alpha, had sex with one of the girls each night and none of the other guys ever had sex with a girl, then after ten nights both the entire group of girls and entire group of guys had on average 1 sex partner, and the median girl had 1 partner and the median guy had zero partners.

Oh and the math professor needs to use the number of partners of the median guy, not the median number for all guys.


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## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

Lon said:


> The mathematicians are using the average, not the median. The prom example used where G=B is not applicable because it's a one time event that assumes all the girls dance all night which requires all guys to dance. When I went to prom, I danced once, most of my closest guy friends also danced just once if at all, yet all of our dates danced all night - and not with each other even. How is this possible? Because there were about three guys at my prom that each danced with pretty much every girl.
> 
> If you had a group of ten guys and ten girls, and one guy in the group, the alpha, had sex with one of the girls each night and none of the other guys ever had sex with a girl, then after ten nights both the entire group of girls and entire group of guys had on average 1 sex partner, and the median girl had 1 partner and the median guy had zero partners.
> 
> Oh and the math professor needs to use the number of partners of the median guy, not the median number for all guys.


Uhh..the math professor doesn't need to do this at all. He's not performing the studies, he's critiquing them. The sex partner study authors need to do this, maybe.

The studies that seem to be bandied about quote the AVERAGE number of partners, not median. I'm sure an emeritus professor of mathematics knows the difference, and I don't doubt his critique of the studies.

Even the NY Times article I linked quotes the sex researchers as either admitting the math professor is right or admitting they don't understand why the results are what they are given the logical impossibility.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Yes, my last comment I got carried away trying to prove my point that the distribution curves for men and women do not have to be the same shape, just the same area under the curves. Indeed, the article is correct that something does not add up since both the average AND median cannot be higher for men than women. So what is the most plausible explanation? If you think that men over-report their number and women under-report it, it may actually lend evidence to my thought that the median is higher for women while the average remains higher for men (ie the typical woman is more likely to have a higher number then the typical man).


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## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

Lon said:


> Yes, my last comment I got carried away trying to prove my point that the distribution curves for men and women do not have to be the same shape, just the same area under the curves. Indeed, the article is correct that something does not add up since both the average AND median cannot be higher for men than women. So what is the most plausible explanation? If you think that men over-report their number and women under-report it, it may actually lend evidence to my thought that the median is higher for women while the average remains higher for men (ie the typical woman is more likely to have a higher number then the typical man).



And that may be true for infidelity as well for similar reasons (i.e., similar motivations to misrepresent in the survey).

And speaking of getting carried away:

Interestingly, if the number of heterosexual "couplings", "sexual encounters", "affairs", whatever are the same for any group of men and women in a population (they have to be, since each heterosexual pairing involves one man and one woman), the number per man in the "prime age group" (25-34) is actually LESS than for women, because there actually are substantially more in men than women in every state in the US at that age group (Washington DC is the exception). 
Highest Male/Female Ratios: States - Bloomberg Best (and Worst)

So, for example, take Missouri, which is in the middle of the pack. 117 men for every 100 women in the 25-34 age group. Say there's 117,000 men and 100,000 women in this medium sized city. Say there's 25,000 unique heterosexual couplings this year. Since each coupling involves one man and one woman, then there is 25,000 for each sex. For men, that's 25,000/117,000 = average = 0.21 per man. For women, that's 25,000/100,000 = 0.25 per woman. Women therefore would be getting more action, theoretically. However, since some of those 25-34 year olds may be partnering with older/younger partners, this is a simplistic and inaccurate analysis. 

But keep in mind, it's in the younger (presumably more sexually active) age groups that men outnumber women; it's in the senior citizen group (presumably less likely to be sexually active?) that the women outnumber the men. So maybe despite the overly simplistic analysis, women are indeed getting more action? Unless you think that granny is keeping up with her younger sisters in the bedroom as the ultimate "cougar"?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Wolfman1968 said:


> According to this NY Times article, Dr. David Gale, a *professor emeritus of mathematics *at Univ. California, Berkeley, says “Surveys and studies to the contrary notwithstanding, the *conclusion that men have substantially more sex partners than women is not and cannot be true for purely logical reasons*.”
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/12/weekinreview/12kolata.html?_r=0
> 
> ...


In tallying out the number of partners men and women have, it’s very possible to get very different total sum and averages. Why? Because the population and men and women might have little to nothing to do with each other. 

Just because a group of men have an average number of partners to be X… it does not mean that a group of women who do not know those men are lying if they say that their number of partners is Y. And both groups could be telling the absolute truth.

With infidelity surveys, it’s completely possible that one gender cheats more. There is the unrelated population issue. Plus it could be that a lot of married men are cheating with single women. Those single women would not be counted as women committing infidelity. 

The population is large and varied. What is true about one population is probably not true of another.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

The bottom line is that information about a person's sexual history is generally private. However, people reveal (dis)information about their history to increase their attractiveness. The people taking surveys may not even answer correctly because they don't recall everything, especially the really promiscuous ones.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> RandomDude said:
> 
> 
> > It also makes me wonder about the irony, of men who are quite adamant about their SO's "virginity" or "purity" or whatever they call it. By having such standards, it may force women to lie to cover up their tracks.
> ...


* Building upon what SA has brought to the table, I know that about the only time that I will even offer to lie might be if I am actively trying to avert conflict. And then that is usually only with certain individuals like my son's mother(first XW), who is decisively bi-polar and I absolutely do not want to put up with her bouts of asking "3000 questions" about what either I or the boys are up to academically or socially!

IMHO, the largest mitigating factor in one's "lying" might well be attributed to one's religious faith, ethics, and upbringing. With regard to myself, if I have faithfully and honorably committed myself to one person through religious vows to "love, honor, and cherish ... pledging my fidelity and knowing that they have made that very same pledge in their vows to me, then why should I, in any way, believe that they are going to lie to me about it? The vows are supposed to be most binding in that they are formulated to be made to a host of entities inclusive of God, our clergy, our families, our friends, and our communities in general! But most importantly, they are made to the person most important on our lives, namely each other!

And if they should subsequently stray in those vows, then they have "lied" to each and every one of those entities that they have made their pledge to! And in the process, knowing full well that either on this earthly plain or in some other place, that we will be fully and individually answerable to a "higher authority" for any and all of our malicious and hurtful misdoings!

To lie and to deceive under those parameters, is to give us a more secure footing in remaining loyal and faithful to each other through our word to each other, vicariously through all of those other aforementioned entities!*


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

RandomDude said:


> It's a dilemma really, kinda like the witch trails in medieval Europe, refuse to confess and you drown, confess and they burn you alive! Now of course it's not so dramatic, but that's the catch 22 it seems women face, there are consequences either way. I don't know if I should expect more people to be honest, or to accept them as the liars they are *due to the present climate of sexual intolerance when it comes to women's lack of "purity*"(argh, what's that word I'm looking for... grrr, virginity? purity? there's another word... someone help me out)


People's attitudes have changed SO MUCH ...it's now Traditionalists who are in the minority... statistics show MOST DON'T want to marry anymore...that includes women.. it's not like they aren't having sex..and lots of it !!

Single women: Why they're on the rise - CNN.com

*Hooks ups* are rampant on college campuses.. seriously.. and you are worried people are too uptight about their sexuality.. I am laughing at [email protected]#$ They are looser than EVER ....more empowered than EVER..... now anyone who even thinks of waiting for marriage.. they are a fvcking laughing stock..... I realize this is not the sort of thing YOU SEE.. *but I HAVE* ... and it isn't no walk in the park for them either.. 

I feel bad for any women today who even CARES to find a good man.. God HELP HER in this "disposable" society .... look at you Random Dude....all you want is a FWB... you haven't exactly had trouble finding one after the other , have you? You would reject the woman who wants emotional strings.. but yet you want MEN to embrace women who don't care.... 

Others see all this as progress.. all I see is the death of Marriage & Family... get a little bored, ain't feeling it anymore.. move on to the next.. They are studying the effects of this sexual revolution.. anyone can see the dysfunctional ramifications of it now ...but we stick our heads in the sand. 

Sexual hook-up culture - With more emerging adults having casual sex, researchers are exploring psychological consequences of such encounters.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> RandomDude said:
> 
> 
> > It's a dilemma really, kinda like the witch trails in medieval Europe, refuse to confess and you drown, confess and they burn you alive! Now of course it's not so dramatic, but that's the catch 22 it seems women face, there are consequences either way. I don't know if I should expect more people to be honest, or to accept them as the liars they are *due to the present climate of sexual intolerance when it comes to women's lack of "purity*"(argh, what's that word I'm looking for... grrr, virginity? purity? there's another word... someone help me out)
> ...


* IMHO, most men lie to get sex, whereas most women lie to keep others from knowing that they're getting their sex from other locales other than from the sacred confines of their marriage bed!

Which begs to greatly explain why the institution of marriage is now, more than ever, in a state of perpetual demise, and might well become a social institution that will severely diminish over the course of time!

Not only because of its social ramifications, but also because of its economic ones. It greatly falls back on the ages-old, sad male adage, "Why marry the cow, when you can get the milk for free!"

And now seemingly has many women employing a similar one, greatly to the effect of, "why marry the bull, when you can get serviced for free!"*


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## TheGoodGuy (Apr 22, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Others see all this as progress.. all I see is the death of Marriage & Family... get a little bored, ain't feeling it anymore.. move on to the next.. They are studying the effects of this sexual revolution.. anyone can see the dysfunctional ramifications of it now ...but we stick our heads in the sand.


This saddens me to no end as I am very much Marriage & Family oriented (though I don't know if I'll do it again after being burned twice). Since my first marriage at a young age, most of my relationships have been what I would consider "long term", hence my total number that I've slept with is pretty low. 

My youngest sister however (11 years my junior) has never been married but is a single mother, and is very open about the guys she dates, and her "number" is over 3 times mine! Seems like a generational thing perhaps. I don't fault her for getting laid, but it just goes to show the shift happening before our eyes.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I feel bad for any women today who even CARES to find a good man.. God HELP HER in this "disposable" society .... look at you Random Dude....all you want is a FWB... you haven't exactly had trouble finding one after the other , have you? You would reject the woman who wants emotional strings.. but yet you want MEN to embrace women who don't care....


Not in my country it hasn't, maybe due to my city and its multiculturalism as not all women feel "liberated". As for FWBs, I actually did have alot of trouble to find a good one. In fact, I found ONE good long-lasting FWB out of many many failed attempts, and even then our relations were kept secret from her friends until much later. She was Australian as well.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

RandomDude said:


> Not in my country it hasn't, maybe due to my city and its multiculturalism as not all women feel "liberated". As for FWBs, I actually did have alot of trouble to find a good one. In fact, I found ONE good long-lasting FWB out of many many failed attempts, and even then our relations were kept secret from her friends until much later. She was Australian as well.


So you want more women to put out so you can have more QUALITY FWB's available (may I add - at your disposal)...... 

Other than STD's.. why does it matter....since it's no strings attached anyway.. I don't get the mindset.. when it's *Just sex*, then the world is at your stage.. Plenty appear ready & willing.. you are just complaining about what is available.. frankly I'm happy to hear you are having a hard time.. I don't think women should settle for THAT...

Anyway.. haven't you heard....women want to Fvck just *as much as men*, that cultural restraints have been Lying to us..(do you realize HOW MUCH you agree with feminists )...it's pouted everywhere.. ....we don't need the emotional connection....we're just like MEN!! .. (though this doesn't speak for all of us)..I know what is good for me.. and what is NOT.

To be honest... I only have sympathy for those who seek an Authentic Long term Loving committed relationship.. the world appears full of the other.. with their baggage, games.. and the fabrications that gets them quickly in the sack... If anyone doesn't give enough time to learn what another is about , where they have come from, what they care about in life... before pumping them...I just don't see how they can be expecting much of anything other than ....well...getting LAID.

I know.. I know Random Dude.. we're just on 2 very different sides of the track here.. and it pains me to hear how others seek to CHANGE the mindsets of some who actually care & long for the deeper things, the deeper connection.... and dare I say the "sanctity" of MARRIAGE.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

I don't like to sleep around, I prefer to have sexual relations with one, and have it for as long as possible. I would have held onto FWB, if emotions didn't get involved and she wanted more. Exclusivity among FWB arrangements is also difficult, not something easily given.

Love isn't something that everyone can find, whether it's to love or be loved it's the same thing, when it's not mutual, it's worthless. Women in my city act all tough sure, they try to act "liberated" "feminist" "independent" "free", but I see right through them. I know when a woman wants more, and normally avoid them, as it's not something I can give.

This is life, and my reality


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## Constable Odo (Feb 14, 2015)

RandomDude said:


> What you guys think of these above quotes?


 Women are better liars. Centuries of faking orgasms have bred it into the female psyche.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

TheGoodGuy said:


> This saddens me to no end as I am very much Marriage & Family oriented (*though I don't know if I'll do it again after being burned twice).* Since my first marriage at a young age, most of my relationships have been what I would consider "long term", hence my total number that I've slept with is pretty low.
> 
> My youngest sister however (11 years my junior) has never been married but is a single mother, and is very open about the guys she dates, and her "number" is over 3 times mine! Seems like a generational thing perhaps. I don't fault her for getting laid, but it just goes to show the shift happening before our eyes.


I am also this way. Much more about relationships than just hooking up. That said after being burned in marriage doubt I will do that again

Fear not SA lots of good guys out there still. I was one of them. We need to educate those guys to find and marry the good women. I needed that guidence but didn't get it. We should start there. :grin2:


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

RandomDude said:


> *I don't like to sleep around, I prefer to have sexual relations with one, and have it for as long as possible. I would have held onto FWB, if emotions didn't get involved and she wanted more. Exclusivity among FWB arrangements is also difficult, not something easily given*.


 But that's the NATURE in all of us.. this WILL HAPPEN.. people are not robots..emotions will get in the way.. what you are asking for.. even the hardest woman ...will grow closer to you...with enough time & skin shared.. if she doesn't ...I'd think something is emotionally wrong with her.. 



> *Love isn't something that everyone can find, whether it's to love or be loved it's the same thing, when it's not mutual, it's worthless. Women in my city act all tough sure, they try to act "liberated" "feminist" "independent" "free", but I see right through them. I know when a woman wants more, and normally avoid them, as it's not something I can give.
> 
> This is life, and my reality*


 You are right.. when it's not mutual.. it should be cut off...it's not worth our time... but intimacy seems something you set OUT TO CHOP DOWN, any hint... you have in fact LEARNED & made it a skill to filter your woman so closely...so you in fact *prevent it* at all costs.... this is how I see you..so you will never find it.. and you keep telling yourself you can not give it.. 

I can understand you being weary in trusting women.. much truth to Billy Joel's >> HONESTY....(just like women need to be weary in trusting men- Heck yeah!)... but outside of this... what really is it.. is this what you want for your life... skin to skin contact with no emotions.. how does this not get "empty" ?? 

These women you mention, you say you can see right through them...they've been hurt & let down so many times..they've learned to exude "I don't need anyone" in order to survive the game.. but you're right... many may not even admit it. but deep down , they want more.. I believe this is built into us though.. Am I all that wrong?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Wolf1974 said:


> I am also this way. Much more about relationships than just hooking up. That said after being burned in marriage doubt I will do that again
> 
> Fear not SA lots of good guys out there still. I was one of them. We need to educate those guys to find and marry the good women. I needed that guidence but didn't get it. We should start there. :grin2:


Me, and a lot of other women, feel the same way in that we believe in marriage and family. But we ended up with men who are liars, cheats, etc., etc.

There are also a lot of good women out there who were never taught how to pick a good man, who were too trusting. Perhaps not realizing how absolutely horrible some people can be.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Growing closer is natural, falling in love just doesn't happen simply by spending time with someone. We had a mutual understanding, that our time together was to be temporary, that we had no future together, that we weren't each other's type for a relationship, and that our relations can not go beyond sex and friendship. For almost a year we were fine, we rode the edges of our boundaries, we were close friends with benefits, but nothing more. No expectations, no disappointments. When one of us wanted more... disaster ensured, and I was to blame for sparking it. I grew fond of her company, but I never ended up loving her. I missed her sure, but I knew I could not love her the way she deserved to loved. So I did what any friend would do, let her go. Unfortunately, she didn't take it well, and our friendship is now in the pits.

As for cutting out intimacy, the way I approach different women is simply different, some women I consider potential partners, others friends, others with benefits, and others well... just casual fkbuddies. Potentials as well as FWBs have only disappointed me in the end in all my post-seperation adventures. When I do meet someone with qualities that I find suitable as a partner, I date her traditionally, if not, friends/FBs/FWBs are the alternatives. I don't trust or love easy sure, but doesn't mean that I haven't tried. 

Everyone wants more sure, they want their fairytale sure, to be loved with rainbows and butterflies, but not everyone has to expect to have that fairytale happen simply because they've been sleeping with someone. In the end, it just lies with expectations. Ex-GF/FWB began to envision our 'future', expectations skyrocketed from moving in together to helping her finance her own entrepreneurial ideas. I wish for fairytale sure, but I always knew she wasn't the woman that would be by my side in the end.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Falling in love does happen by spending time together. 

You can make all the agreements you want. But the heart will do whatever it wants.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

If the two are compatible to begin with, sure, but I don't fall in love with a female friend just by spending time with her just like I wouldn't fall for a male friend. People are FZed for a reason.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

RandomDude said:


> If the two are compatible to begin with, sure, but I don't fall in love with a female friend just by spending time with her just like I wouldn't fall for a male friend. People are FZed for a reason.


Just because you do not fall in love by spending time with someone, it does not mean that other people are all like you.

If she fell in love, then between spending time and sex, she fell in love. 

Sex and spending time together causes the brain to produce feel good hormones like oxytocin, dopamine, etc. The results of all those hormones running around in the brain causes a person to fall in love. Perhaps her brain produced more of these chemicals than yours does.

Humans are chemical engines. We run on chemicals. Chemicals tell us how to feel, who to love and not love.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Love is like a river, your will like a dam, one crack and it may flood the whole valley. However, when the river is dry, the dam is in no danger of cracking underneath its weight. I guess for ex-GF/FWB, the river was not dry after all.

Sad thing is, I knew this deep down, but decided to trust her will. If I even can be bothered trying to shuffle through the dating scene looking for another FWB... maybe next time I'll be more careful to find those whose rivers are dry.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Just because you do not fall in love by spending time with someone, it does not mean that other people are all like you.
> 
> If she fell in love, then between spending time and sex, she fell in love.
> 
> ...


I agree with this, but it's very dangerous and a part of what you posted earlier about women not being taught how to choose a man. I think men tend to do the same things. 

I think this kind of thing fades and we are left with sexless marriages to people we never really knew and come to find we don't like. I think it also leads to marriages where one partner changes and no longer likes their spouse. 

I do think RD is correct in there needing to be some unknown factor that draws two together, like a natural little boost of dopamine, or something when in their presence. 

I can't explain it well, but have felt it. 

It would be irresponsible for me not to mention that this natural draw to another can also blind us to important issues that will prove two incompatible and are generally glossed over in those instances. 

Balance is key. Balance between that natural draw and some reasoning and logic are best and most difficult to find.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I think everyone lies, to varying degrees depending on circumstances. At the very least, I think everyone uses "white lies" as social lubricants - for example "I like your new hairstyle." I know we routinely lie to, ignore, misdirect, or challenge nosey people and strangers to preserve our privacy when they ask about things that are none of their business. Some are gossips, and some are malicious - probably some are just curious but it's still none of their business and we can't know if that's their motivation or if they may also be gossips or malicious. We don't lie to people who have earned our trust, though, but in some cases may omit telling them things they don't have a need or right to know.

Most of my skill in misdirecting nosey people was learned from my wife, who is a master at this. I'd say women are better liars, by far.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> Me, and a lot of other women, feel the same way in that we believe in marriage and family. But we ended up with men who are liars, cheats, etc., etc.
> 
> There are also a lot of good women out there who were never taught how to pick a good man, who were too trusting. Perhaps not realizing how absolutely horrible some people can be.


True however in the spirit of the thread and genders lying the female friends I have that got royally screwed over in marriage all seemed to know something wasn't right when they married. This always boggled my mind. I was completely snowballed by my x but my GF and few female friends all seem to say the same thing " that they new something wasn't right about their husband before they married or on their wedding day". Which begs the question did they lie to themselves?

Certainly not true in all cases. When you deal with psychopaths or liars and cheats I don't think anyone full knows what they are going to get...how could you.

I fully believe that your best shot at a long and lasting marriage happens in your twenties. If you marry the wrong guy or girl and find yourself divorced after 30 good luck. 

I believe SA has sons and I know she is concerned for them and the women they will find. Hell I'm concerned for her sons even more than my daughters knowing what's out there in the hook up culture. Ironically the same culture I am now part of because I live with a woman unwed and don't plan on marrying.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Did anyone consider that this could be a communication problem? Let me explain as best I can. 

Many, if not most wives believe husbands do not understand them. They say they don't "listen". Well, men do listen, but they don't recognize the sign posts. If, as said in some thread I just read, maybe this one, women are more subtle due to fears of exposure of their pasts, being judged for their opinions, looking like an ogre or a controlling spouse, wouldn't that have been something that has been learned over a lifetime of instruction by respected older or more experienced women, and the reactions of men they relate to proof of what they were taught? 

I think it's obvious that when husbands and wives misunderstand each other it's easy to conclude that they are lying. Do I think by the strictest of definitions we all lie? Yes. I think it's a defensive mechanism. Some do it to a greater extent than others. We are all different. I think men think women lie more because we don't understand the subtle language that women find natural and necessary.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

It Happens In Florida


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Runs like Dog said:


> It Happens In Florida


Are you saying, love stinks? :grin2:


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

2ntnuf said:


> there needing to be some unknown factor that draws two together, like a natural little boost of dopamine, or something when in their presence.
> 
> I can't explain it well, but have felt it.
> 
> ...


Unknown factor? Nah, tis just chemistry/spark/click = http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/259570-chemistry-pickiness.html


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> Unknown factor? Nah, tis just chemistry/spark/click = http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/259570-chemistry-pickiness.html


I agree, but did you ever meet a beautiful woman and not feel anything and then meet a woman who was not as pc beautiful and find her making you forget what you were talking about? You know what I mean? What is that? I know dopamine, but what about a less attractive woman you don't even know would make you "go goofy" like that instead of the pc more attractive woman? That's the unknown factor. I skimmed that link. Forgot I was in it. Didn't see the answer to this. Maybe I missed it?


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

> but did you ever meet a beautiful woman and not feel anything


Sure, like all my dates since seperation.



> then meet a woman who was not as pc beautiful and find her making you forget what you were talking about


Yes, ex-wife.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> Sure, like all my dates since seperation.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, ex-wife.


You are killing me here, RD. Did you ever look into being more open minded? 

You are writing my feelings, but the example was meant to compare two women you don't know. Not one you don't and one you do. Especially when it's someone you still love. 

I truly think you need to look into some book or site on how the abused cannot detach from their abuser and will seek out other abusers to date/marry. 

I'm not saying you are one of those who will seek out the abuser, but I am saying it wouldn't hurt to make sure you are not, before you pursue her. And, I know you well enough from here that you will pursue her an nothing and no one will stop you. You will have to get burned so badly that you decide on your own. I don't want to see that. I do want it to work out for you with your ex, if and only if, you are sure it isn't because you are under some malady of some sort. 

I do think she still loves you, but she is so severely hurt, any contact with you on a personal level makes her fearful of being destroyed. Something has to change before that can be accomplished with anyone. The only change you can make are in yourself. 

I do, personally, wish you the very best RD.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

I've tried to be more open-minded for years, none just seem to be able to complete me the same way that ex-wife did, outside of her silent treatments and sex addiction... how to compare two women I don't know? I can't make a comparison without base data. I'm not so sure if one can say I still love my ex-wife. In the end I've moved on emotionally, but I never felt a connection with the women I've met since her.

I don't know if she has changed at all in regards to her skeletons, all I've seen thus far is that she's a great friend, co-operative co-parent who understands the needs of our daughter, and still has my trust and respect - that's the kind of woman she is outside of marital life, respectable and trustworthy regardless of her vices. Whether she's still abusive I have no idea, only one way to find out isn't there? I know I will need to approach her from a position of strength, too much humility and she could take it as a sign that I'm on my knees begging for her back or something - which is utterly impossible for me, and if she's still an abuser, it'll just be going back to what we had. But too little humility and I doubt she'll bite. And all this is pointless if she's already moved on and considers me a past chapter of her life that she no longer wants to relive.


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

IMO, I think women are better at detecting the subtle changes and nuances in speech and body language than men. Men are just not as in tune with that stuff...including myself. Men are more physical and into problem solving where women more sensitive and emotional. This would allow a woman who was cheating, if she was cunning, to hide it better or at least the changes not be detected by her spouse. In my case, my XWW acted relatively normal...in my eyes. I wasn't looking for or didn't notice the subtle changes in behavior or body language until it was too late. I did have that burning gut feeling that something was off, but that was all I had. 

It was also easier for XWW to use things like GNO's, lunches with the girlfriends, and shopping at the mall as a cover to meet posOM. I didn't do these things, mostly because I was at working during the day, so it would be much more difficult for me to come up with an excuse that wouldn't be questioned as abnormal behavior. I doubt that if I would have told XWW that I was shopping at the mall for 3 hours she would have considered that acceptable. I would have been given the 3rd degree.

Another thing that worked against me and I assume, other men as well, was that I trusted my XWW. I wanted to and needed to trust her. I would have never believed, in a million years, that she could be cheating. In my mind, she embodied all that was pure and virtuous in my life and I chose to believe that. In short, I had her on a pedestal....my bad. 

That being said, I do believe that the person that is better at cheating and lying, has the more trusting spouse.


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

RandomDude said:


> I've tried to be more open-minded for years, none just seem to be able to complete me the same way that ex-wife did, outside of her silent treatments and sex addiction... how to compare two women I don't know? I can't make a comparison without base data. I'm not so sure if one can say I still love my ex-wife. In the end I've moved on emotionally, but I never felt a connection with the women I've met since her.


Sorry RD. I could have wrote this myself. I'm going through the exact same thing. It sucks! I worry that I will never have that connection again with anyone else...minus the cheating of course!


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Decimated said:


> Sorry RD. I could have wrote this myself. I'm going through the exact same thing. It sucks! I worry that I will never have that connection again with anyone else...minus the cheating of course!


Not quite what I meant. I was meaning he likely shouldn't use the same tactics he does for an employee or business deal. I imagine him to be very sure and straight forward telling the customer what he knows to be certain and letting them decide if they want what is best or something less. I don't think that works so well with some women. 

Hey, I could be wrong about RD, but I did not mean it the way you thought.


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## TheGoodGuy (Apr 22, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> It would be irresponsible for me not to mention that this natural draw to another can also blind us to important issues that will prove two incompatible and are generally glossed over in those instances.
> 
> Balance is key. Balance between that natural draw and some reasoning and logic are best and most difficult to find.


Agreed 1000% @FeministInPink mentioned in another thread some time ago something that resonated with me, and I quote: "There is, of course, no accounting for in-person chemistry. But my goal is to rule out people who would be bad partners for me, even if there would be good chemistry. Because good chemistry would lead me to stay longer with someone who is ultimately a poor fit." I think you guys are saying the same thing. And probably part of the reason I'm twice divorced. I allowed chemistry/natural draw to soften my boundaries and overlook some yellow if not red flags.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

TheGoodGuy said:


> Agreed 1000% @FeministInPink mentioned in another thread some time ago something that resonated with me, and I quote: "There is, of course, no accounting for in-person chemistry. But my goal is to rule out people who would be bad partners for me, even if there would be good chemistry. Because good chemistry would lead me to stay longer with someone who is ultimately a poor fit." I think you guys are saying the same thing. And probably part of the reason I'm twice divorced. I allowed chemistry/natural draw to soften my boundaries and overlook some yellow if not red flags.


I did it in my first marriage. I'd still like to...anyway, she is no good for me, nor I for her. Good mother to my children. Her and I? No way no how...but I'd like to....no no nope....

Second wife, beautiful, sexy, loving, strong, not petite or blonde like first wife. Natural red, but all grey naturally by the time we met and colored auburn.......damn......In any case, I was not head over heels with that something I can't describe attraction, but there was attraction, it just didn't start naturally unless she did something or wore something or I can't explain. Partly me and partly age and partly her and partly I don't know. 

I know that's not good either. It's a balance and I will never find it. I think I was damn close once and I let her go and she was blonde and petite and OMG. I didn't want to raise more children, even though they were fantastic kids. Damn her, she was sooooo......oh well. See? Some just I don't know. I don't know what or why. 

I thought I was being smart and doing the right thing the second time. And, the trouble is, because it was a slower climb, I fell deeper cause I looked harder and wanted it more. Sucks to be me.


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## Kitt (Jun 3, 2015)

TheGoodGuy said:


> Agreed 1000% @FeministInPink mentioned in another thread some time ago something that resonated with me, and I quote: "There is, of course, no accounting for in-person chemistry. But my goal is to rule out people who would be bad partners for me, even if there would be good chemistry. Because good chemistry would lead me to stay longer with someone who is ultimately a poor fit." I think you guys are saying the same thing. And probably part of the reason I'm twice divorced. I allowed chemistry/natural draw to soften my boundaries and overlook some yellow if not red flags.


Really important point. I don't think men or women can all be generalized.....best to go on a person to person basis and keep in mind this point.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Decimated said:


> IMO, I think women are better at detecting the subtle changes and nuances in speech and body language than men. Men are just not as in tune with that stuff...including myself. Men are more physical and into problem solving where women more sensitive and emotional. This would allow a woman who was cheating, if she was cunning, to hide it better or at least the changes not be detected by her spouse. In my case, my XWW acted relatively normal...in my eyes. I wasn't looking for or didn't notice the subtle changes in behavior or body language until it was too late. I did have that burning gut feeling that something was off, but that was all I had.
> 
> It was also easier for XWW to use things like GNO's, lunches with the girlfriends, and shopping at the mall as a cover to meet posOM. I didn't do these things, mostly because I was at working during the day, so it would be much more difficult for me to come up with an excuse that wouldn't be questioned as abnormal behavior. I doubt that if I would have told XWW that I was shopping at the mall for 3 hours she would have considered that acceptable. I would have been given the 3rd degree.
> 
> ...


That's why I always say, always trust your instincts. It's subtle information that your subconscious mind picks up that your conscious mind fails to register. Over time like any truth it nags at you, but you don't know why, you just get a 'feeling', but many times we decide to dismiss it as we don't want to believe or to worry. Ignorance is bliss yes?



2ntnuf said:


> Not quite what I meant. I was meaning he likely shouldn't use the same tactics he does for an employee or business deal. I imagine him to be very sure and straight forward telling the customer what he knows to be certain and letting them decide if they want what is best or something less. I don't think that works so well with some women.
> 
> Hey, I could be wrong about RD, but I did not mean it the way you thought.


With potential FWBs/FBs pretty much, sure.

With potential partners however, it's a completely different ballgame, and always a more exciting one too, if it wasn't for the constant disappointments.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

And you thought I was full of it. See? I'm only a little better than half full.


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## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> In tallying out the number of partners men and women have, it’s very possible to get very different total sum and averages. Why? Because the population and men and women might have little to nothing to do with each other.
> 
> Just because a group of men have an average number of partners to be X… it does not mean that a group of women who do not know those men are lying if they say that their number of partners is Y. And both groups could be telling the absolute truth.
> 
> ...


In the general population (ie, if you could somehow survey every single person in the country), then what the mathematician said would of course be true. It would be logically impossible for the number of heterosexual partners to be different between men and women. Impossible.

The whole point of these studies is that, IF properly done, the survey sample should be representative of the general population. 

IF the populations are large enough to be statistically valid and representative of the general population then your statement of "unrelated populations" doesn't apply. In fact, if your claim DOES apply, that is another nail in the coffin of these survey studies--it means that they are NOT representative of the general population. It means that it is poorly done study (since these studies are supposed to say something about the population as a whole).

Either way, the methodologies of these studies are terribly flawed. They lead to logically/mathematically impossible results or they are so poorly designed that they don't represent the populations they claim to be sampling. Either way, these anonymous recall studies are not useful to draw any conclusions.

The infidelity studies, since they use a methodology (anonymous recall survey) that has already been proven by the sexual partner studies to be unreliable, cannot be trusted either. It doesn't matter if the populations are different or not if the tool you are using for the study is useless.

Which means this thread is discussing studies that, at their core, use methodologies that lead to impossible results.


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## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

LongWalk said:


> The bottom line is that information about a person's sexual history is generally private. However, people reveal (dis)information about their history to increase their attractiveness. The people taking surveys may not even answer correctly because they don't recall everything, especially the really promiscuous ones.


OK. Well, then, if what you say is true, that just supports the claim that these survey studies are not useful since people lie/do not recall/etc.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Wolfman1968 said:


> OK. Well, then, if what you say is true, that just supports the claim that these survey studies are not useful since people lie/do not recall/etc.


I agree that the survey is not useful in some ways.

It can only give a ballpark figure of an average number of partners.

It cannot tell us who is lying or not remembering every single person that they has sex with. 

I think that the higher any person's number is, the less likely they are to recall ever person that they can sex with. There people who have had sex with hundreds (even thousands).

The suggestion in the OP was that clearly women lied because women report a lower average number of partners. So women are liars.

Well maybe, just maybe, it's the men who are not telling the truth. Maybe the men who have some issues with needed to be macho braggarts give grossly inflated numbers. Thus skewing the numbers for men much higher than they really are.

Or maybe it's mostly those male/female who have the highest numbers. they do not recall the numbers but the males tend to report higher in their guestimates. And women tend to report lower their questimates. So the only liars are the forgetful people who have done everyone in the county at least once. And everyone else... men and women are telling the truth.

There is no way of knowing.... because the subjects will just lie or continue to forget if they are asked more questions to clear this up.

Using a study like this to try to prove that everyone of a gender is {fill in the derogator term} is not useful.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Wolf1974 said:


> *Certainly not true in all cases. When you deal with psychopaths or liars and cheats I don't think anyone full knows what they are going to get...how could you.*


There are many who have absolutely no interest in hearing about another's past, their experiences, what sort of relationships they've had... we see the strong opinions on this -how insecure those who seek to know are ...which I will never agree with .. my feelings are just as strong in this..

To NOT know...to NOT CARE.... is speaking.. *"I don't need to know all about you"*.. I don't think anyone should be surprised when things go sour by not digging deeper like this.. why wouldn't you want to know everything about a person who you will be committing your life to... This has nothing to do with judgement either.... this is about a shared *INTIMACY*.... this is about *authentic acceptance*...learning how it brought each other to where you are today.. showing you are a viable loving person who has much to offer.. 

ConanHub... even Random Dude knows all about this.. why can't Random get over his EX.. (he speaks of this many times even)...because she was one of the FEW -if only he opened up his life with, his past... the good, bad & the ugly ...and felt that *authentic acceptance*.. he got in DEEPER with her than any other.. can anything compare ...it all makes sense to me !....even if it did fall apart for OTHER REASONS..that unfortunately, they couldn't get past. 

One thing I speak to my sons is : DO NOT be with any woman who can't or refuses to go there with you..if she clams up , puts up any barriers to getting deeper.. these are














's . and they too... need to willing to share, as a relationship grows....*honest in all things*, keeping things from each other breeds mistrust & questioning...

Why anyone would even WANT to be with someone they can't fully TRUST to love them for who they are ...it's not something I understand.. those things would GRIEVE the inside of me...it would leave a hole of questioning in my heart. 

We all make mistakes, or may do things others would frown on... take tattoos for example.. some men are turned off by them (my H is one of those).... but what if they meet a woman who has one, he's disappointed to learn she has one on her a**.... this can't be hidden.. at this point.. he's probably in deep.. has fallen... he'll have to weigh the good in light of that tattoo looking at him.. accept her / the whole package.. because the GOOD far outweighs something that they can not change... 

Watching the Bachelorette the other night.. A vulnerable moment.. . the introverted Shy Farmer/ welder.. opened up to her ...telling her he didn't have his 1st kiss till he was in college... and what does she Do.. her response behind the scenes revealed it all.. she wants a MAN -translation a PLAYBOY who can feel her up & Fvk her good.. but ya know what.. he shared who he was .. he wasn't lying -there was honesty there.. but obviously it was a turn off to HER... He is NOT HER TYPE... Good!...now they can weed each other out.. which would be for the best.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Aye, ex-wife could handle the truth of who I was and who I became, and vice versa. Tis just reality though, as I mentioned before, majority of people judge when they are incapable of understanding. This narrows down my options for an emotional connection severely. Right now I've given up.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

SimplyAmorous said:


> There are many who have absolutely no interest in hearing about another's past, their experiences, what sort of relationships they've had... we see the strong opinions on this -how insecure those who seek to know are ...which I will never agree with .. my feelings are just as strong in this..
> 
> To NOT know...to NOT CARE.... is speaking.. *"I don't need to know all about you"*.. I don't think anyone should be surprised when things go sour by not digging deeper like this.. why wouldn't you want to know everything about a person who you will be committing your life to... This has nothing to do with judgement either.... this is about a shared *INTIMACY*.... this is about *authentic acceptance*...learning how it brought each other to where you are today.. showing you are a viable loving person who has much to offer..
> 
> ...


100% agree. I would never be with a woman who felt her past was off the table to discuss. Actually only place I ever found that was an issue was here on TAM so should be hard to find. I agree with you that not sharing of ones past is a huge red flags. 

As a man who went down this road I would also advise you to tell your sons two things. One they will be pressured to not hold the persons past against them.....it's bull****. Past behavior Is a great indicator of what can and likely will happen in the future. They need to pay attention especially if cheating is in the past.

Second have them watch closely the dynamic of her parents. Her relationship with them, and their relationships with each other. My x came from a divorced family and thought it no big deal to hurt our kids and divorce because "hey I went through it and it wasn't a big deal". It is a big deal because now she has passed along this is ok to cheat and break up marriages to our daughters who will likely carry on this legacy. Maybe in the end, good or bad, we become our parents


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

It's tough to quantify emotions. 

Was it in this thread that Lon spoke of a dance at high school or something? I found that to be most accurate. There are a few who do most of the mating. The rest are second and third choices. Men don't really choose women, in my opinion. I personally think it's always been the opposite. Even before I ever came here to TAM. 

Some might say that's bull since women put on the makeup and dress attractively. Well, a man has to be chosen by a woman and then she has to be attractive enough for him to want to mate. So that's basically what I think. Also, most men are attracted to average women who are taking care of themselves and looking as good as they can. There are too many people on the earth for that not to be true and too few top of the line men for them to have impregnated all the females of the species. 

I think women will choose the highest level male they can by nature and men will want to mate with as many as he can who are in a range of healthy looking and taking care of themselves/nurturing so children will survive and so forth. The reason I think women who are attracted to a man will treat him quite differently, with much more gentleness and respect than a man she does not. Today, we think it's out of safety and maybe it is partly. I think there is more to it. Anyway, it's all opinion and educated guesses. 

RD, you can't force love and attraction. It will come. You are correct when you say there are few who would understand you, be willing to love and accept you for who you are and not attempt to change you, who desire you for you, and who you would respect and love. It's the same old story everyone else has. You are no exception. It's tough to find someone and I made a post about this on soul-mates. 

While I don't think there is a soul-mate any more. I do think there is one person on this earth, in your age range, who is the closest above all other women to the perfect match for you. She won't be perfect either, but she will be the best match out of the 3.5 billion or so women alive on earth. Will you find her? Extremely unlikely you will ever find her. So, within a limited range or the area in which you live or associate with women, you have a certain number of them who are potentials. Which is the closest match to that ultimate "one" on all the earth? There is no formula. Finding her would be like finding a needle in a haystack and being there to look right after the needle was hidden. Because it will be moved again in a short period of time. 

Does that bode well for your or anyone's search? No, but I don't mean to make you angry either. All anyone can do is learn and grow to be the best they can be. Work to be the most forgiving, humble, compromising man you know. Do not do things that will cross personal boundaries or make you seem weak. Just be understanding and open to ideas that are not perfectly aligned with your own. I do wish you luck. You have worked very hard to be the respected man you are. I do think you earned that respect. There is someone who will understand that and love you for who you are. In the meant time, love yourself and give yourself a break.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Crap forgot one more. For the love of all that is holy please tell them don't marry just for looks. This is the absolute hardest thing to convince a young man of. Looks fade and what you are left with is a person who you either have common interest in or not.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> It's tough to quantify emotions.
> 
> Was it in this thread that Lon spoke of a dance at high school or something? I found that to be most accurate. There are a few who do most of the mating. The rest are second and third choices. *Men don't really choose women, in my opinion. I personally think it's always been the opposite. Even before I ever came here to TAM. *
> 
> ...


here is what I have learned just in my personal observation so may vary for others. I agree that in your Twentys and early thirties women hold the cards in the selection process. I think they have the absolute most options then as they tend to be more mature, settled, and have a larger selection base to choose from. However the over 40 divorced crowd the pendulum has swung and now I think it's men who have more options. I know I am now way more successful at dating then I ever was in my 20's. Nothing has changed with me accept I have gotten older lol. But now I have women pursuing me, asking me out. Instead of being broken up with I am the one who seems to end up cutting relationships off. Sure some of this comes with women being more confident but a lot speaks I think to who has the Most desire to be in a committed relationship. In my 20's I desperately wanted one, now doesn't matter to me.
So guess from my view women and men hold more cards in dating at different age ranges. Least this was my experience and I've heard a few others, men and women speak on this


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> here is what I have learned just in my personal observation so may vary for others. I agree that in your Twentys and early thirties women hold the cards in the selection process. I think they have the absolute most options then as they tend to be more mature, settled, and have a larger selection base to choose from. However the over 40 divorced crowd the pendulum has swung and now I think it's men who have more options. I know I am now way more successful at dating then I ever was in my 20's. Nothing has changed with me accept I have gotten older lol. But now I have women pursuing me, asking me out. Instead of being broken up with I am the one who seems to end up cutting relationships off. Sure some of this comes with women being more confident but a lot speaks I think to who has the Most desire to be in a committed relationship. In my 20's I desperately wanted one, now doesn't matter to me.
> So guess from my view women and men hold more cards in dating at different age ranges. Least this was my experience and I've heard a few others, men and women speak on this


Are these aggressive women in their 40's? 

I still think my theory holds true, even in your scenario. The only aberrations seem to be with women who are in peri-menopause and they are experiencing a extremely elevated sexual desire. This happens to some women, and it happens in their 40's. The body knows there is a limited time left to procreate and it pumps in more testosterone to drive up the desire to mate. The selection of acceptable men may increase to some extent and border on the absurd, but it is a natural thing and will calm to a great degree after a year of no cycle. At that point, many women will drop out of the dating scene. Some will still be there, but those will likely be the ones who have used it, so they didn't lose it. If you get my meaning.

Before peri and within RD's age group, it's different. 

I'm not actively looking, but I have had several women, deeply in peri, come on to me. They were not in the least bit attractive to me and were well below my personal standards. The trouble is, I am not up to the standards of the women I desire and had been attractive to before the changes in me caused by my second separation and divorce. 

I understand and I appreciate your comments. I tend to pay attention to your posts because many times they will reflect some of my thoughts or provide some extra understanding for me. Thank you.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> The suggestion in the OP was that clearly women lied because women report a lower average number of partners. So women are liars.
> 
> Well maybe, just maybe, it's the men who are not telling the truth. Maybe the men who have some issues with needed to be macho braggarts give grossly inflated numbers. Thus skewing the numbers for men much higher than they really are.


That could be a possibility, but I think there are some good studies out there. No study is going to be perfect in the area of sex, but some are I think pretty good, while others are basically junk. And, times have changed tremendously in the 35 years since I was a college student, so my children (in their 20's) live in a very different world than I did.

Mathematically the # of partners does not have to equal out, but it does have to average out. Someone already made the example of 10 men and 10 women, with only one man having sex with each of the 10 women. So the average # is 1 for all the men and all the women. But the _median_ is quite different between the two groups.

I think this scenario is leaning towards what really happens (or at least what it was when I was younger). The distribution was not equal at all. There were some men who had a lot of partners, with most men having a few partners. With women, most women had some partners, but very few women had many.

And then the women lie to reduce their number, while the men lie to increase their number, especially on poorly done studies.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Wolf1974 said:


> 100% agree. I would never be with a woman who felt her past was off the table to discuss. *Actually only place I ever found that was an issue was here on TAM so should be hard to find. * I agree with you that not sharing of ones past is a huge red flags.


 I think we all gravitate to others who are geared like ourselves... so it makes sense really......



> As a man who went down this road I would also advise you to tell your sons two things. * One they will be pressured to not hold the persons past against them.....it's bull****. Past behavior Is a great indicator of what can and likely will happen in the future.* They need to pay attention especially if cheating is in the past.


 Beings our family is VERY OPEN with each other.. (it's just our way)...our kids were raised like this..... I speak to them on the great importance of compatibility ..to be who they are.. and if someone doesn't like them the way they are... it's not worth barking up that TREE.. it will come back to haunt.. 

We have many discussions on what is Ethical / "doing the right thing" in regards to relationships...I ask their input.. I want to hear where THEY are coming from too... when I see how well they treat their GFs or if I feel they screwed up in something.. might have hurt her emotionally... (and this happens too- I have taken them aside & had a word )...I want them to be aware of the dynamics of the sexes.. for sure. 

I am very pleased with the GF's 2nd & 3rd son has ...I adore them both.....we've taken them on vacations with us...day trips, they are like part of the family... We watched 2nd sons GF in a Junior Miss pageant last week.. when she sang on stage, her shining moment.. I teared up... .. so PROUD of her [email protected]#.....(it will be 4 yrs for them in Oct)... too early to tell...but I really think I watched my future Daughter IN Law on that stage.. We are a weird family.. got a thing about young love.



> *Second have them watch closely the dynamic of her parents. Her relationship with them, and their relationships with each other. My x came from a divorced family and thought it no big deal to hurt our kids and divorce because "hey I went through it and it wasn't a big deal". It is a big deal because now she has passed along this is ok to cheat and break up marriages to our daughters who will likely carry on this legacy. Maybe in the end, good or bad, we become our parents*


 I look at these things too... 2nd GF ..parents close intact larger Catholic family....(that part he isn't crazy about)....they are so supportive.. aunts , uncles.. outpourings of love.. it's something wonderful to see really... 

3rd son's GF seems alot LIKE ME.. divorced parents, Mother not there for her.. recognizes her mistakes ...she is very close with her dad, praises the man for taking the 4 children & raising them himself....and she confides IN ME.. very OPEN / forthcoming like myself.. 

Son has even told her if she has problems with him, she can talk to me!!... .and she has!! She understands I want the best for THEM...and individually.. if it's not right.. if things go downhill at some point.. also to understand it doesn't mean it's anyone's fault.. .. they may not be as compatible as they thought...they are young ! (as was the case with his 1st GF).. it was for the best ...


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> Are these aggressive women in their 40's?
> 
> *Well yes but not just 40's. It's twenty and thirty years olds that have also pursued me. Maybe society has just become as a whole more aggressive since I dated in the 1990's lol*
> 
> ...


*Ditto my friend *


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Wolf1974 said:


> *Ditto my friend *


I needed that today. I've been feeling it is too late for me at 54.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Thor said:


> I needed that today. I've been feeling it is too late for me at 54.


I'll be 53 at the end of September. My mother fought life's crap until her death at 90 in 2013. I can try a little, right? 

I can tell you, it's damn tough sometimes. Sometimes the small things that I took for granted before, seem like a giant boost today. 

You will do well. It's all perspective.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> I'll be 53 at the end of September. My mother fought life's crap until her death at 90 in 2013. I can try a little, right?
> 
> I can tell you, it's damn tough sometimes. Sometimes the small things that I took for granted before, seem like a giant boost today.
> 
> You will do well. It's all perspective.


Yeah, I know that intellectually, but emotionally no.

Each time during the last 4 years I've either decided to end the marriage or believed I would be very soon, I've had a major medical issue. The kind of thing that results in surgery (twice), made me feel 140 years old (lyme disease), or laid me up for a month several times (bad back). Then I start feeling like I'll be physically impaired for the rest of my life, and possible sexually impaired.

Like clockwork, every time something significant happens that has me thinking I'm done with the marriage, my body breaks down. It becomes a reason to not leave.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Thor said:


> Yeah, I know that intellectually, but emotionally no.
> 
> Each time during the last 4 years I've either decided to end the marriage or believed I would be very soon, I've had a major medical issue. The kind of thing that results in surgery (twice), made me feel 140 years old (lyme disease), or laid me up for a month several times (bad back). Then I start feeling like I'll be physically impaired for the rest of my life, and possible sexually impaired.
> 
> Like clockwork, every time something significant happens that has me thinking I'm done with the marriage, my body breaks down. It becomes a reason to not leave.


That's...weird. Sorry you are going through that. 

I understand the thoughts about being alone in old age. Crosses my mind every few days. I know an older man who lives alone, and is in his late sixties. He is still working. He dates like crazy. He dates younger when he can. He has chosen to be friendly and close with many women. I had to conclude it's due to his knowing he can't expect a wife or his children to help when he is ill. His wife is long moved on. His children don't speak to him. It can be done. It isn't easy, but it can. This is a real life situation. I didn't make it up.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

I'm not worried about being alone. I am pretty alone in this marriage as is. I see my kids all the time, see and talk to parents and siblings, etc, so I do have connections to family outside the marriage.

It's like the stress just breaks me down physically, and then emotionally.

Sorry for the thread jack, folks.


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## earworm (Apr 15, 2015)

Such a great topic and article. I have thought about it too. What I exactly know that there are 3 types of lie in our life: it's simle lie; shameless lie and statistics . I'm not sure about are woman better liars. Perhaps, but I believe that men are not bad liars too. Everything depends on confidence between people.


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