# Feel like I am being set up



## PANDA (Oct 16, 2009)

My wife and I are re-entering therapy next week. There are issues of lack of communication, intimacy, and child discipline (we are somewhat frazzled parents of 3 boys) that we both recognize so I am glad to be going.
Here's the thing though: We are going to a different therapist whom we have never met before. I suggested that we go to our previous therapist, somebody that my wife used to admire and regularly refer other people to. She said she did not want to go to him because she did not trust them. I thought it best not to argue and agreed to go to the new therapist with an open mind and positive attitude.
Tonight my wife revealed to me that she didn't want to go back to our previous therapist because he never dealt with a fundamental problem in our relationship, which was my anger. She believes my anger issues are undermining the marriage and harming our children. During an argument about this in which she was, as usual, much more angry than me, I pointed out to her that our previous therapist said that her default defense was anger, not mine. (Pointing that out did not help the discussion. She also denied that he ever said that.)
So, anyway, Wednesday we see the new therapist. If I say I don't have anger issues, or that what is really going on is projection, I appear defensive and the therapist will explore whether I do have anger issues, and we will talk about my anger issues instead of core issues like communication and intimacy. If I agree I do have anger issues, we will talk about my anger issues. At least that's what I imagine.
Do I lose my temper sometimes? At home, yes. In fact I yell at the boys a little more than I like and would like to get some help with ways of motivating and disciplining the kids that don't involve as much vocal volume. (There is no corporal punishment, no name calling, no shaming, but alot of raised voices, by both of us probably in equal amounts.) Outside of the home; hardly at all. In fact, my feedback from others - including the previous therapist - is that I am a level-headed, even-tempered person who manages my anger well. The therapist even thought I should get in better "touch" with it. After tonight's argument and discussion I did a few internet quizzes, just to check, and from those it also appears that I am not a likely candidate for "anger management" as my kids might put it.
So I am concerned about being sidetracked at the outset into an issue that is probably more a projection of my wife's anger onto me than anything else, but I don't know what to do about it because I don't be seen as defensive, closed to the process, or anything like that. Nor do I have an overwhelming desire to deal with my wife's anger issues; when we are connected and things are good between us, that anger melts away.
In sum, my concern is about being side-tracked from the goal of connection and from the issues that do need to be dealt with, and I do want to get to them. Also, I am afraid - I guess - that my wife's genuine unhappiness and genuine beliefs about this are going to paint me as some kind of "bad guy" or the "problem" from the outset.
By the way, she grew up in what she describes as a stormy home that included a father who she says was often very angry. Her parents' marriage eventually broke up after his serial infidelity. (My wife had an affair several years ago, nothing by me, so no real parallels on the latter point.)
So my invitation is for input on the following question: How do I deal with all of this honestly and positively? Observations? Advice?


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

The rule of thumb is you can't change anybody else but yourself. So the fact that she is concerned with you her perception won't change unless changes are made. All you can do is improve yourself. Stop focusing her and what's wrong. Make the changes in yourself to make you a better man.. Once you do that it will force her to look at herself. If anger is the issue learn techniques that will get you to act more calm. Don't lose it. Once you start I bet she makes the moves to be closer. I read if the problems in your relationship are 90% wrong with them and 10% on you then you need to address the 10% before you work on their 90%..


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## ChimeIn (Oct 10, 2009)

I would say all those things directly to the new counselor... you're responsible for being honest in the relationship and absolutely during your counseling session. You could even mention the previous therapists name and see if the new guy will contact the old guy. (you may have to frame this very delicatley to your wife... maybe mention that $$$ is an issue and you'd like the new guy to be "caught up" right where you left off with the old guy?)

My point is, you shouldn't worry about what you're going to say or how you're going to be perceived by the therapist. Be honest. If the therapist is any good, they'll pick up on if you really do have a problem, or if it's your wife who really has anger issues.

Good luck!


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## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

Anger can be demonstrated in a lot of ways, not only by yelling you know. So consider some of the other ways anger might show through. With a lack of intimacy, most men become bitter and angry so I'd be really surprised if you don't have anger in the mix.

Address what's there. The therapist will see if she's making it into a bigger deal than is warranted. Remember, she'll have to back it up with examples. 

And anyway, therapy takes time. Give yourselves the time to explore all of the issues in whatever order they arise. Try not to worry and focus on the goal, which is to get the two of you back on the right track.


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## PANDA (Oct 16, 2009)

Great advice, and I know in my heart that working on my own behavior is what I need to do.
And I am bitter about the lack of intimacy - sex - and I imagine it is manifesting in behavior both overt and under the radar.
I know I was completely crushed this summer by something that happened on what I had planned as a romantic holiday in Prague. I got there first, arranged for a beautiful hotel on the main square, and during the holiday spared no expense on anything with a view to having a wonderful time. When my wife arrived she announced we would have no sex because she wanted to start all over again. I was heartbroken but went with it, and we had a very wonderful time that was emotionally intimate, connected, and fun but included no sex - which hurt.
We have been intimate a small number of times since then, and one of those times was the nicest, most connected sex we had had in years. That was last month. Lately it seems that all I get - and probably also display back - is anger, although there are good times too.
Anyway, this morning before work I bought my wife flowers and left her a note saying that I loved her and that I was willing to do whatever was necessary to make our lives as healthy, happy, and fulfilling as possible.
In response to her e-mail advising me about the time of the appointment I sent something similar.
And as in Prague, I will continue to make every effort to be as nice as I can and a good a man as I can.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

Thats great and she seems to have a better grip on this then you. She is trying to build a marriage and love based on intimate feelings and not sex. Which will be stronger.. That is way the sex was better.. One of the biggest problems we have is expectations. We expect certain things and we give only when another gives also. Love should not be earned but given freely cause you want to. I know its tough but your so focused on the end part of love you forget everything before. It's like reading a book. Take the first chapter and then jump to then end. You get nothing out of it and the book is wasted. If you do that with sex you get very little out of it. Yet its the emotional connection that makes it great. I hope you see that you need to do all the little things to improve the marriage.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Let anger be her topic of concern in the MC. You state your topic of concern. You can work on both topics...even if you don't think you have a problem. You wife may have a different persective or it may be a way of blaming you for the marriage problems. Either way...you can say you disagree but have moments of yelling. You can still work on skills to decrease the amount of frustration that you feel. Although, I get the frustration...I REALLY do! 

If you start to work on your topic. Then she will be obligated to work on your area of concern. You see...give and take! 

Be prepared for time and patience.

You wife is craving intimacy and you are craving sex. If you can give her the intimacy that she craves (ask her what she wants) without expectations (a big one for women). Then...sex will increase!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

You are being set up. Forgive me for being blunt. Your wife is stressed about the children, she has shut down sexually. You are very frustrated about that - which is completely reasonable. You have pressed hard for therapy. She can't agree to the original therapist because that person knows both of you. But a new therapist is different. Having no context at all, the new therapist can be manipulated and deceived. 






PANDA said:


> My wife and I are re-entering therapy next week. There are issues of lack of communication, intimacy, and child discipline (we are somewhat frazzled parents of 3 boys) that we both recognize so I am glad to be going.
> Here's the thing though: We are going to a different therapist whom we have never met before. I suggested that we go to our previous therapist, somebody that my wife used to admire and regularly refer other people to. She said she did not want to go to him because she did not trust them. I thought it best not to argue and agreed to go to the new therapist with an open mind and positive attitude.
> Tonight my wife revealed to me that she didn't want to go back to our previous therapist because he never dealt with a fundamental problem in our relationship, which was my anger. She believes my anger issues are undermining the marriage and harming our children. During an argument about this in which she was, as usual, much more angry than me, I pointed out to her that our previous therapist said that her default defense was anger, not mine. (Pointing that out did not help the discussion. She also denied that he ever said that.)
> So, anyway, Wednesday we see the new therapist. If I say I don't have anger issues, or that what is really going on is projection, I appear defensive and the therapist will explore whether I do have anger issues, and we will talk about my anger issues instead of core issues like communication and intimacy. If I agree I do have anger issues, we will talk about my anger issues. At least that's what I imagine.
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I totally disagree with this. She has lost her desire for you, does not want to address that, and is instead attacking you. 

Showing up in Prague and saying I am not going to have sex with you - that is just a cruel thing to do. 

The problem you have sure sounds very simple.
- She does not desire you sexually
- She does not love you deeply enough to enjoy sex purely for the joy it gives you
- She absolutely wants you to keep providing her this nice lifestyle. 

The biggest mistake you are making is not about anger. It is that you are avoiding real conflict. I don't mean raising your voice. I mean the kind of conversation she would have with you if you quit your job, told her you had decided to do consulting, but wanted to work as few hours as possible and keep everyone fed/clothed/insured - zero luxuries. You were selling the house, and moving into a small apartment. 

If you did that - what do you think she would say to you? 

How is that any different then what she is doing to you?

The main difference seems to be that you are showering her with gifts/trips/flowers - this just comes across as weak - which is the ultimate turnoff in this situation. 

If it was me, I would insist on the original therapist. Simply not negotiable. And if she refused I would start to do the things you do in a marriage when you put 100 percent into it and your spouse cheats on you, and denies you basic love and affection.













Loving Husband said:


> Thats great and she seems to have a better grip on this then you. She is trying to build a marriage and love based on intimate feelings and not sex. Which will be stronger.. That is way the sex was better.. One of the biggest problems we have is expectations. We expect certain things and we give only when another gives also. Love should not be earned but given freely cause you want to. I know its tough but your so focused on the end part of love you forget everything before. It's like reading a book. Take the first chapter and then jump to then end. You get nothing out of it and the book is wasted. If you do that with sex you get very little out of it. Yet its the emotional connection that makes it great. I hope you see that you need to do all the little things to improve the marriage.


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## Loving Husband (Aug 3, 2009)

MEM11363 said:


> I totally disagree with this. She has lost her desire for you, does not want to address that, and is instead attacking you.
> 
> Showing up in Prague and saying I am not going to have sex with you - that is just a cruel thing to do.
> 
> ...



Did you ever think that what she is doing could also be a reaction to what he has done?? Cycles will continue until somebody makes a change. We don't know who started what or why. All you can do is make yourself better and if she continues to deny or with hold at least he did what he needed to in order to move on. Women tend to get very bitter and with holding sex is part of it. Since most women have sex when its emotional its the first thing that goes in the relationship. When that goes the man gets angry.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I agree that we have no idea who started this. We do have some background. 

- She cheated on him
- She came to a very expensive elaborate romantic getaway - showed up and said I am not having sex with you deal with it

But hey - lets let Panda reply. Just recognize - some women shut down sexually and simply do not want to be honest about what is happening because they don't want to lose the financial support they are getting from their super hard working husband. 

Read between the lines here - Panda is making a nice living. She has a conflict of interest - be honest with him - maybe he bails - or lie, and manipulate - and delay - and keep riding the gravy train. 

The therapist presto-chango strategy says a LOT. 












Loving Husband said:


> Did you ever think that what she is doing could also be a reaction to what he has done?? Cycles will continue until somebody makes a change. We don't know who started what or why. All you can do is make yourself better and if she continues to deny or with hold at least he did what he needed to in order to move on. Women tend to get very bitter and with holding sex is part of it. Since most women have sex when its emotional its the first thing that goes in the relationship. When that goes the man gets angry.


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## PANDA (Oct 16, 2009)

Yikes, you hit a nerve!
That my wife doesn't want me has been my concern for a long time.
I don't doubt that she loves me, that is that she cares about me, and quite deeply.
But the way a dear sister would, is the problem.
Maybe it is an illusion but I believe the wanting isn't there on her part and that is something that I have felt for a long time and pointed out a few times too.
It is also a turn off for me so I am not really initiating sex anymore. This is partly in response to her telling me in Prague that she wanted to initiate when she was ready but partly because I just don't feel like doing it with somebody who by being physically unresponsive suggests to me she doesn't want me. (I touch her a lot both in foreplay and during sex but rarely get touched back in kind.) It is just bloody heartbreaking and feeling just doesn't turn me on anymore.
All the above being said, I agree with Loving Husband that you can only change yourself and I am genuinely interested in improving myself. And I believe that this, combined with expressing my point of view in a safe environment - i.e., with a therapist, is the best thing to do.
Very confusing, and more so because right now I don't feel like I can talk to her about how I think and feel - I just don't trust her to listen without again turning what I say into my "dumping on her" "blaming her" "being defensive" "not listening to her" "treating her like she is invisible" etc. (these are the various things that I am accused of doing when I try to tell her what I think and feel, at which point I do become angry - not yelling or anything, but I _feel_ angry, as well as scared and sad, to be frank, and she knows me enough to know that I am feeling these things - at which point I probably do the very things she is accusing me of because I do feel like I am being attacked.
Sometimes I feel like these arguments/discussion are a crazy destructive couples' self-therapy game at which she always succeeds in achieving in confirming whatever it is she's trying to confirm because she's done so much more therapy than me.
And hence my asking for advice on this board.
I am just bloody confused and any input you can kindly offer about how to approach my first meeting with the new therapist would be appreciated.
P.S.: One correction; not sure how important this is but the most recent suggestion of therapy was hers, though I had suggested going back to our original therapist when she first made her announcement in Prague, the response to which was: " ... what, so now you are going to tell the teacher on me?"
And the affair, which was four years ago, is relevant in one way for me at this point: at that time she similarly demonized me in order to justify what she had done. (I don't think an affair is going on now, mind you. Just don't feel it in my gut the way that I did then before I discovered it, and the cues with her like the avoidance of eye contact and so on aren't there. But my gut tells me that she is covering something, hence the title of this thread.)


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I sent you a PM. There is a standard pattern to what is happening. Very hard to see/understand it when you are in it. Very easy to see once someone points it all out. 






PANDA said:


> Yikes, you hit a nerve!
> That my wife doesn't want me has been my concern for a long time.
> I don't doubt that she loves me, that is that she cares about me, and quite deeply.
> But the way a dear sister would, is the problem.
> ...


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## PANDA (Oct 16, 2009)

PM me more or even post here - I don't mind - I am intrigued.


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## PANDA (Oct 16, 2009)

Would love go hear from some women on this, as well as more from LH.
LH, Mem, I am thankful for your advice but feel like I have a devil on one shoulder and an angel on the other and don't know which is which.
One thing I want to add is that I don't think money is that big a thing but it could be a part it. I make a lot more money than her but she is in the same profession, only working part time. And her family's net worth is much higher than mine. (She's got a first class public-sector pension, too.)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

In a way, MEM is right. You are a nice guy and you are avoiding confrontation. She's not stupid so she sees the anger and wants to put it all on that. She refuses to look at herself at all, which is annoying.

The comment about you telling the teacher is interesting. She knows she's in the wrong and she doesn't want it pointed out. So why not ask her how she'd feel if you went to therapy on your own to deal with your anger issues (what you talk about is up to you, really, it is none of her business) and you begin with what you perceive as the real problems in your marriage.

It might be interesting to ask her to write down the top 10 things she sees wrong with the marriage and you write down the top 10 things and then deal with the ones that overlap first, regardless of the order. It might give you a clue as to what she's trying to avoid or trying to steer toward.

I don't know that I agree you are being set up as much as I think she's avoiding having her role in your marital problems being pointed out with crystal clarity. And until she is ready to accept responsibility, you're not going to get anywhere.

Mem's alarm bells going off worries me because he's pretty astute. But then so is LH with what he has managed to work out with his own marriage. However, there is no history of affairs there. 

Not being wanted sexually is surely a painful experience. And I can understand why you wouldn't initiate if you feel she just doesn't love you that way. 

Do you know how much sex there was between her and the other man? 

This is a rough situation because you have to look out for your own interests, but you can't appear stubborn. 

BTW, I'm dying to know Mem's perceived pattern...


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## PANDA (Oct 16, 2009)

dobo said:


> Do you know how much sex there was between her and the other man? ..


Not a lot - he lives in another country - but my impression is it was pretty hot.

We have had hot, middling, and medicore sex at various times (16 years of marriage, probably normal).

There are unresolved issues there; I am of 2 minds about a new therapist because the old therapist never wanted to talk much about the affair because he thought it would be destructive to raise my wife's shame.
Best I can tell the affair had 2 multiple day get togethers and lots of on line eroticism lasting about 6 months 4 years ago.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

Maybe the new therapist will see things differently about the affair. Her shame is one thing but what about your hurt? You can't avoid one without not giving the other its due.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This is the standard pattern. If yours fits closely - perhaps I can be helpful. Let me know. 

Start from a basic premise and work backwards. This is a much simpler means of assessing this problem. 

The premise has two key components: 
1. Your wife very much wants to continue her marriage to you. She loves you - in a platonic way, she loves you as the father and she is devoted to the idea of a stable healthy family. She sees you as a good father figure for your 3 lads all of whom you are both very vested in. 
2. She dislikes having sex with you. Lets not talk about why yet - lets just accept for the moment that she dislikes it. 

So - if we stroll over from your side of the table to hers what do we see. 

1. A husband we are attached to and don't want to leave
2. A husband who - while we love him - we are confident we can bully him when we have conflict. We may respect him as a father - but we don't consider him an equal. This is helpful as we have no intention of discussing this potentially destabilizing topic with him. That topic being our total loss of desire for him. 

Now lets talk about how she likely feels. For now I will simply say that this is a very well educated guess - and if you like - you may enquire later as to why I am so well informed.

1. Strong feeling of anger when she thinks about this subject. Just like you. See - she wants sex - note the affair - she simply isn't attracted to you. 

2. Some level of resentment for you for not being what she wants you to be. 

3. Guilt for not being a good wife. Guilt is tied closely to her secret though so in the interest of concealment it is unlikely that she shows you much guilt.

4. Fear - Now fear converts more readily and rapidly to anger then just about any other emotion. And she is afraid that you will figure all this out - and end the marriage - or have affairs and embarrass her.

5. Anxiety - This is what she feels when you approach her for sex. She is anxious because she does not want it and does not want to be honest that she is not attracted to you. 

Strategies/Tactics:
1. First and foremost prevent anyone from addressing the issue directly. For instance - do NOT allow a clear cut problem solving exchange along the lines of: If my husband would simply stop doing these 2 well defined things, or start doing these 3 well defined things I would be ALL OVER HIM. 
2. Second - the best defense is a good offence. Attack your husband. Talk about anything and everything that he might be doing wrong. Change the focus to why he needs to change. Keep the focus permanently on why he needs to change. Do NOT acknoledge that there are no specific behaviors which are upsetting you and disrupting your sex life. There is simply an utter lack of desire/active distaste for sex with him. 

The anger thing is perfect. He is angry and tense - he feels unloved and rejected. Because he is - at least physically - unloved and rejected. So even if he manages the expression of that anger very well - he does feel it. So focus on that - hammer him for being angry. Tell him when he stops being angry you will maybe start discussing these other issues he has raised. And then - delay - delay - and if he asks for sex - either reject him, provoke him or attack him for one or more of his many failings. It is not that hard to provoke a totally sex starved man. After you provoke him - tell him he has just set the marriage back 6 months - by getting angry and being a jerk - which avoids this whole stupid pointless discussion of sex for another 6 months. 

How closely does your pattern of interaction resemble what I just described. 





dobo said:


> Maybe the new therapist will see things differently about the affair. Her shame is one thing but what about your hurt? You can't avoid one without not giving the other its due.


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## PANDA (Oct 16, 2009)

Close on the pattern but there is a bit more sex than that - 2 or 3 times a month, but not great most of the time.
Anyway, what to do?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Lack of sexual frequency is almost certainly not about you being angry. It is most commonly caused by:

1. Physical changes - you have gained weight/lost hair/or she has let herself go and is self conscious or some combination. 

2. Interaction patterns - not anger though - is it possible that she feels crowded by you in terms of how much time you wish to spend with her, how much love you express. For instance in many cases like this the husband feeling his wife withdrawing - chases her - which causes her to withdraw further. It doesn't matter how you chase - expensive gifts/flowers/telling her how wonderful she is. All of those things are in a sense the following act: A request for HER to love YOU more. Those requests can make someone feel emotionally claustrophobic. Isn't it odd that often the most powerful aphrodisiacs in the world are: 1. The sight of someone else trying to enchant your spouse. 2. Showing true indifference towards your partner. 

In the subtle dance of a long term marriage the person who loves less has more power. For the dance to remain interesting, challenging and erotic, the person who loves more needs to be able to withdraw a bit - let the lower love spouse come to you. She likely will. This is not about seeming cold - not in the slightest. It is about having your focus elsewhere. On the boys - on some hobby. Make her ask you to spend more time with her. Do things that make you more attractive to other women - not saying you should flirt - just saying let her feel that in the that she is not the center of your universe as much anymore. 

I am now no longer speaking abstractly or about you. I am now in first person. I love my wife more and she and I both accept that. Still - I dance with her - I don't clutch at her, don't crowd her. I let her come to me. I often let her say "I love you first." Last night lying in bed - side to side - touching - I was thinking "I love this - love lying this way." A half hour later she expressed that sentiment - I laughed and just said me too. Sexually - sure I initiate more but because everything else is so good she wants to please me in that area of our marriage. 

3. Sex itself. How honestly / openly does she communicate what she likes/dislikes. Do you know for sure when you get her to the finish line. Does that happen most times? Is your routine very consistent? Could she be bored? Will she play along if you give her a book with photos and a highlighter marker - will she highlight what she wants? 

The approach above - step 2 - is the indirect approach. It won't work if you aren't crowding her in some way now. Only you will know if you are. As for honest communication about sex. You can only force that if you are really willing to have conflict. Talking about sex can be very, very frightening. 

I know that it is also a turn on for my wife - that I have definite boundaries that it is not safe to f**k with. She knows I am very committed to the marriage. But she also knows that I am not willing to play doormat. This is not about being angry. This is about withdrawing from someone spatially, temporally, and emotionally if they are not being kind and loving to you, if they are not able to make the effort to keep YOU happy. 





PANDA said:


> Close on the pattern but there is a bit more sex than that - 2 or 3 times a month, but not great most of the time.
> Anyway, what to do?


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## PANDA (Oct 16, 2009)

Thanks again for the input.
The pattern _was_ like yours in the past but actually this time I am withdrawing, not chasing, and the closest she is coming to chasing me is setting up the meeting with the therapist.
Anyway, as Wednesday comes up things are getting more peaceful and happy at home, though not sexual.
Wondering if LH has any comments on the parallels and differences between my situation and yours?


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