# The dreaded cleaning message



## Gseries (Jan 6, 2013)

Hi. Our house is never clean. I've learned to live with it after 17 plus years of marriage. I'm not the slacker husband who does nothing, in my opinion, in fact i would say i'm a majority stakeholder in the chores.
My question though is how to deal with one specific thing that bugs me, and communication hasn't worked on this.
my wife loves to create the "clean spot". she will diligently clean for hours in one corner of the toy room, putting everything away neatly and cleaning so that we end up with a clean square. the rest of the house is trashed, but we have a clean spot to enjoy.
i've learned i have to be happy about this; i have to congratulate her on the clean spot when in my mind i'm staring at a sink full of dishes, kitchen table that never gets cleaned, and counter tops that are so full they've actually never been used as counters.
we have a lot of kids. i think our house needs power cleaning on the macro scale, and that the micro cleaning has to wait.
HELP. how do i say this without getting into another argument?


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

I do the "clean spot" thing. I find cleaning everything in one go is too overwhelming. Not only that, but after going OCD on one area, the sense of accomplishment is satisfied, unfortunately...

You have a lot of kids... The house may not be clean for years to come. How else does your wife spend her time? Does she work? Read to the kids? Do laundry? Fix supper?

Cleaning may not be her strength but I'm sure she more than makes up for it in other ways. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BarelyThere (Dec 31, 2012)

If you have a lot of kids, surely some of them are getting old enough to help out. Why not talk to your wife, calmly, and tell her that it's bothering you and ask if she could involve the kids in helping get it clean?

Avoiding an argument is probably more about how you phrase the question. If she feels attacked or put down, she's going to react defensively. 

"Honey, I know you do a lot with the kids and I appreciate how much you do, but....."


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

I disagree with the "but" part of the phrase, it kind of has a dismissing quality to it that will also make her feel defensive. I think you can appeal to her better if you state what it is that you want/need and brainstorm together about making that happen.

Oh, and having the kids help is a great idea. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Gseries said:


> we have a lot of kids.


You lost me at this sentence. LOL

If I were you I'd take charge and put some of those kids on cleaning duty since your wife isn't going to do it. My guess is the kids are still young but they can do more than you give them credit for.

There is a thing called 'chore charts'. I'm sure you've heard of it.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

Hire a cleaning lady/team. It will help you stop arguing about the mess and catch up on the overwhelming task. 

Then, declutter and make sure each thing has a home by organizing. Get her on board with this by posing it as a joint project and not the result of some shortcoming of hers or yours.

I had a lot of clutter in closets and unused rooms. When stbxh complained about it, it made me defensive. When we tackled it together and then redecorated, it became less about blame and more about cooperation; it was even enjoyable.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

I'd encourage you to express it as a positive and to put the kids to work. You can say you have an idea that will achieve pay off a lot more than it will cost in effort. If each person in the household spends just minutes per day on completing some chores, you'll be accomplishing a lot: 

- instilling a good work ethic in your children
- enjoying a cleaner home
- relieving some pressure from your wife
- creating a de-stress environment for you 

Even the youngest children can help. They can put toys away, push a broom around (don't criticize when it accomplishes nothing but praise them for their helpfulness and willing attitudes instead). Kids from 5-8 years can wipe glass surfaces, countertops, and tables, as well as take out trash. Kids older than 9 can wash dishes, vaccuum, and clean bathrooms. 

You've grown accustomed to a clean spot in your home. You could assign a clean spot for each kid to create, too. They won't do the job perfectly, but if you expect progress rather than perfection, it will benefit everyone.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

If you don't want to live in a filthy house, then clean it.

If you want your wife & kids to help, then assert yourself.

Stop congratulating her on cleaning one stupid corner. That's ridiculous.

Hire a cleaning person.


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## Gseries (Jan 6, 2013)

Ok all replies are fair enough. The kids working thing has been an epic fail....sports and schoolwork pretty much take out the older ones....and as mentioned, I don't have time after work to mentor little ones. As for my spouse....isn't it mixed up for me being the one willing to trade romance for housecleaning???
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

How about just being honest with her. Tell her you hate living in a dirty house and its getting you down. Work out a plan to get the house cleaned up and uncluttered. There's very few excuses for living in a dirty house esp when you have children living there. I'm not a clean freak but my house is clean and relatively tidy always. It's too much to do all at once so it can be broken down into priorities. Bathroom and kitchen should be done regularly the. The rest can be done on scheduled days.

Much better to be honest with her now and risk hurting her feelings than holding this in for years and becoming more and more resentful. She's a big girl. She'll get over it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

Gseries said:


> Ok all replies are fair enough. The kids working thing has been an epic fail....sports and schoolwork pretty much take out the older ones....and as mentioned, I don't have time after work to mentor little ones. As for my spouse....isn't it mixed up for me being the one willing to trade romance for housecleaning???
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I understand about the kids. Schoolwork came 1st. They had a few chores but their main "job" was school. That's how it worked in my home & somehow they got the "neat freak gene" from me as young adults now.

What does trade romance for housecleaning mean? She has no time to clean the house because you are screwing all the time?


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Gseries said:


> Ok all replies are fair enough. The kids working thing has been an epic fail....sports and schoolwork pretty much take out the older ones....and as mentioned, I don't have time after work to mentor little ones. As for my spouse....isn't it mixed up for me being the one willing to trade romance for housecleaning???
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Kids need chores, too. Not just sports. Make cleaning a team sport, with everyone having their roles on the team. Schedule the cleaning sport time just as soccer games and whatnot are scheduled. And stick to it - every Saturday morning (or afternoon or Sunday or whenever), your team cleans the house before going anywhere or doing anything else. Period. 

You can do it if you really want to.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Emerald said:


> Stop congratulating her on cleaning one stupid corner. That's ridiculous.


I thought this too. He said his wife cleans 'for hours' on that one corner and he praises her for it. In 'hours' I could clean my entire house to something presentable.

Oh and saying the older kids are too busy is an excuse. Cut out their activities. Who pays for all that? Dude you're the man of the house so act like one. It's not too much to expect a decent house to come home to. Lived in not spotless.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> I thought this too. He said his wife cleans 'for hours' on that one corner and he praises her for it. In 'hours' I could clean my entire house to something presentable.


LOL Mavash!

I wonder how big that "corner" is in terms of inches?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

My guess is she's a perfectionist. Her attitude is either it's cleaned perfectly or not at all. Hence the whole clean square thing.

No way would I spend HOURS on one square if I can't see my counter tops. That's just insane.


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## StargateFan (Nov 19, 2012)

F$&k sports. Sports are a privilege they have to earn. ( Except swimming) They are a part of the family and make a mess also. They have to be taught to contribute to the family. If you can't teach them to clean up after themselves and contribute to the household, you are raising some poor future spouses. 

One trick with the littler ones is the let them know any toy that gets left out goes in the trash. Then do it, walk around with a trash bag putting the toys in it. (Don't really throw them away) make them do chores to earn them back. If they don't have a garage sale.


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## heavensangel (Feb 12, 2012)

No chores, no sports!!! It's just how it is..... I don't see a future employer telling them they can have a two week paid vacation when they aren't doing their job! No.....they get fired!! Stop rewarding them for doing nothing! 

If the house is in shambles and no one (you, wife, or kids) want to take care of it....then call a sanitation department; have them deliver one of their large 'roll-off' dumpsters and tell everyone in the house, if it doesn't have a place, then it goes in the dumpster. You do this once (maybe twice) and they see you mean business, I guarantee your 'mess' problem will be solved. 

H and I did this with our oldest. We gave him 3 days to clean his room. Then we moved in with empty boxes and started loading. If it wasn't something he needed (clothes, shoes, school books, etc.) it went in the garbage. This happened ONCE!!


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## Gseries (Jan 6, 2013)

heavensangel said:


> No chores, no sports!!! It's just how it is..... I don't see a future employer telling them they can have a two week paid vacation when they aren't doing their job! No.....they get fired!! Stop rewarding them for doing nothing!
> 
> If the house is in shambles and no one (you, wife, or kids) want to take care of it....then call a sanitation department; have them deliver one of their large 'roll-off' dumpsters and tell everyone in the house, if it doesn't have a place, then it goes in the dumpster. You do this once (maybe twice) and they see you mean business, I guarantee your 'mess' problem will be solved.
> 
> H and I did this with our oldest. We gave him 3 days to clean his room. Then we moved in with empty boxes and started loading. If it wasn't something he needed (clothes, shoes, school books, etc.) it went in the garbage. This happened ONCE!!


Ha. I've been here...that's why my attic is full of cardboard boxes of completely random junk. I appreciate the replies. I was under the impression that our society no longer accepted the man who comes home from work and then asks where dinner is and why the house is a mess. I wish I could blame the creator of farmville...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

thing is, there's things you can do to make it FEEL clean even if it isn't perfect - doing the dishes is one, cleaning the counter tops is another

if you do a little bit often then it's far easier to maintain. I threaten the child with taking a black bin bag to her room and that usually does the trick

I filled seven out of there once. You have to be ruthless


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

How about drawing up a weekly roster and getting the whole family involved? For example:-

Cooking: A
Set Table: B
Clear Table: C
Wash Dishes / Load Dishwasher and Clean Work Tops: D
Put Dishes Away: E

Make Beds: A, B C, D and E
Hoover: A
Dust: B, and C
Clean Bathrooms: D and E

Rotate on a weekly basis and make sure everyone sticks to their allotted chores.

If chores are broken down into do-able chunks, it should be easier to get things done, and even small children can be taught to set a table or use a duster.


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## Pault (Aug 15, 2012)

Theres a phrase that applies here (forgive me for using it if it offends but I hope youll see it fits ) The Lunatics are running the asylum!!!!

IN a home no matter if you have 1 or 21 children there is apoint where each reaches an age of responsibility. Each child needs to know that if they make the mess they clean the mess else no priverlages. No need ofr argument or face to face verbals! Your wife may find that cleaning a small area is great and it look wonderful simply because its a form of task avoidance. 
Break each room down to start with - The house as a whole is like eating an elephant all in one go, It just will not happen. 
Start in the kitchen area - Thats where we all have the most combined worktop and cupboard space. Make the cleaning of the room fun as suggested. When (in a past life) I had to instill home diciplines to a group of wayward children the music went on, the TV, games machines, computers, cell phones all went off and we dived in - I with one adult took some hand and the other adult took another set. We worked through the counters and cupboards. Both adults worked on "is it rubbish - so get rid or no keep". In 4 hours we all sat down for food and a cleaned kitched at serface level at least. Cupboard had been wiped out and the newly found cooking/eating equipment washed, dried and placed back in. 
RULES APPLIED - You use it you wash and put it away - dont do it and the football on the week end is cancelled in favour of the cleaning. Using simple rewards as suggested like "Yes, you can go to sports, is your room spotless?" took a huge amount of initial work/training but the message got through.
Your wife appears to be completely over whelmed by the work and most people will agree, when youve busted your rear end cleaning a room and within hours its back to the normal tip it does wear you down to the stage of why the heck bother.


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

Mrs Wysh typed this out and pinned it up.

It is aimed at the two boys (20 and 24) living at home at the moment.
It is a home not an hotel.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

They don't have sports EVERY day. My daughter has 2 days off a week after school. Those are the days she has chores. Also, I hate the dirty clothes everywhere but the hamper (often right beside it -gr!) but I decided it they weren't in the hamper they wouldn't be washed. So I'll step over 10 things on the floor to retrieve 4 out of laundry. When she has no jeans/undies/whatever, I remind her I did laundry but she didn't have anything in the hamper. Oh well! 

She doesn't go to bed until trash is tossed (wrappers, etc.) and dishes picked up and takes everything she plops down in the living room back to her room. Every other weekend she pickes up and vacuums her room. Her bathroom has been a struggle though.

As to the rest of it - can you afford a housekeeper? Just once a month? Maybe you could all pick up weekly and touch up but the house gets a good cleaning once a month?

I forget where I heard this idea but I use it to this day for de-cluttering. Once a week go around and gather everything that goes to one room. Not just laundry but books, magazines, hair clips, electronic games, socks, all the random clutter that happens. Have your kids each gather up everything of theirs, you do the same, and take it to your bedroom. Take everything from your bedroom that goes elsewhere like drinking glasses, etc. Then collect all of the trash. Just doing that much clears the way for the actually cleaning part.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

:rofl::banghead: :soapbox:issed:


Why no. I have no idea what you are talking about...


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Gseries said:


> Ok all replies are fair enough. The kids working thing has been an epic fail....sports and schoolwork pretty much take out the older ones....and as mentioned, I don't have time after work to mentor little ones. As for my spouse....isn't it mixed up for me being the one willing to trade romance for housecleaning???
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How does sports and schoolwork pretty much take out the older ones? As a pre-teen of 2 working parents, it was my job to peel the veggies, set the table and help prep dinner for when my mother and older siblings came home from work. I managed to combine homework and play time with all of this, and to me it was just part of belonging to a large family.

How can you refusing to live in a chaotic and unclean home equate to trading romance for housecleaning? :scratchhead:


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## 41362 (Dec 14, 2012)

My kids (7 and 12) both have extracurricular activities on multiple days each week

They also know where the chore list is on the fridge. 

They know what needs to be done, and when. They actually like the structure.


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## MrsOldNews (Feb 22, 2012)

I managed to be on the debate team, Volleyball and basketball. Also two years in plays. And a part time job ll while keeping my grades up and doing lots of chores as J was an only child of two parents who worked full time. Most of my friends were in sports and had chores too. Teaching your kids its okay not to contribute to the household chores is teaching your kids to be slobs as adults. Most people don't want to date slobs. I know I don't.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

HIRE A HOUSECLEANER. If your family does not help declutter everything before they come, get out the boxes and garbage bags and throw everything into them. At least do this for the initial cleaning.

If it's been as long as it sounds like it has, your house needs a really deep cleaning, and that means you have got to get the crap out of the way for it.

Do your kids get allowance? If they do, you could tell them that the cost of the cleaning lady is coming out of their pockets.

You could also pay your kids to do it. Give them specific daily chores that they do because they live there, but also give them the option of doing bigger stuff and getting paid for it. Like fridge cleaning, window washing, detail vacuuming etc. I found it helpful to break it down room by room then chore by chore in a spreadsheet, along with the pay for each chore.

Your wife probably feels overwhelmed, and she could probably benefit from having the task broken down for her. Rather than having to 'clean up the kitchen', if you could get her to think of it in smaller chunks that might help. So there's clear the table, load the dishwasher, wipe the table, put the food away, hand wash dishes that need it, clear the counters, wipe the counters, etc etc. One small thing at a time.


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## DayDream (May 25, 2011)

Gseries said:


> I don't have time after work to mentor little ones. _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can't get past this statement. What do you mean by that? You are one of the parents, right?


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## DayDream (May 25, 2011)

Cosmos said:


> How can you refusing to live in a chaotic and unclean home equate to trading romance for housecleaning? :scratchhead:


It's only a good trade if it's GOOD, right?


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## Tony55 (Jun 8, 2012)

*You're living exactly the way you choose to live, stop complaining.*

T


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Gseries said:


> I was under the impression that our society no longer accepted the man who comes home from work and then asks where dinner is and why the house is a mess.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That approach will not warm her heart toward you, IMO

How many children do you have?

Here's some things which worked for my husband:


-take over the bulk of the housework and childrearing for a couple years (when he was unemployed and I worked full time). Suddenly less than gourmet food and some undone things were not such a point of contention anymore. He realized that it was a hard job and he no longer puts his feet up and expects to be served when he comes home from work. He chips in and helps.

-During his Mr. Mom tenure, he assigned the kids chores- one sets, clears, washes the table; one loads the dishes, one unloads, one does the pots and pans. 4 years later, they still do their chores daily.

-asked me what he could do to help me with housework? I assigned him sorting papers and files which is very tedious work and doesn't show much visible progress for the effort.
Additionally, I did hire out the basic housecleaning for a couple years there when I was just too overwhelmed with many children, menopause, etc. If the basic housekeeping is done for her weekly she can use that time for decluttering and organizing. 

Nowadays Sat morning is cleaning day and each child has a couple rooms which are their responsibility. Everyone is working during that time.


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## VFW (Oct 24, 2012)

You suffer from lack of organization. It takes awhile to train and organize the troops, but it is well worth your efforts in the long run. Additionally, you are training a person to be responsible for themselves and be better prepared to live with someone else in the future. Assign tasks according to age and ability, but even at 2 years old, they can do little things. Even my dog has to put his toys away.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

I think sports involvement is great, but it's vital to maintain a balance between grades, sports, and home. Your home is not in balance. If that means the kids go to bed 15 minutes later each day or rise 15 minute earlier because they've got chores to do, so be it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

How many children do you have and what are their ages? This is important info to know in order to respond.

Is your wife a SAHM? It sounds like she is. So please tell us if she works outside the home.

It takes your wife hours to clean one corner of the toy room. Ok, I can see this. If the toy room is a colossal mess, the toys are filthy and need to be cleaned, organized, etc. This can take a long time.

When my son had toys I used to scrub and beach them if they got dirty. Germs from colds, the dogs, cats etc get all over them. All stuffed toys were washed when I cleaned his toy area. This is especially important when many children play with the same toys. Dirty toys can spread all kinds of viruses.

Your house is very dirty and your addict is filled with boxes of assorted stuff. You have lots of children. Sounds like a house with at least one pack rat and a lot of chaos from un-mentored children.
Perhaps you and your family need to do a serious de-cluttering and cleaning. Have you seen the reality shows where a team goes into a house to do this? It works wonders. You and your wife could work together room by room to get things under control. A website that offers a lot of help on how to do this is FlyLady.net


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## Gseries (Jan 6, 2013)

I need the reality show as a bailout...ok, wife is stay at home mom....six kids, ages 16 to five. 5 girls....
Some great feedback. I'm concerned over the what its, as in, what if they don't do as suggested?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Gseries said:


> I need the reality show as a bailout...ok, wife is stay at home mom....six kids, ages 16 to five. 5 girls....
> Some great feedback. I'm concerned over the what its, as in, what if they don't do as suggested?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Your W is a SAHM?:scratchhead: What the heck does she do all day whilst the home is festering around her? If she's not prepared to take care of the home, suggest that she find herself and job and pay a housekeeper to clean and organize the house.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

Gseries said:


> I need the reality show as a bailout...ok, wife is stay at home mom....six kids, ages 16 to five. 5 girls....
> Some great feedback. I'm concerned over the what its, as in, what if they don't do as suggested?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Okay, then it is her job to keep your home presentable. Children ages 5-16 are in school at least 4 hours (for the 5 yr. old) per day, 5 days a week. This does not mean that it is only her job; it is your job as well BUT YOU HAVE LESS HOURS TO DEVOTE TO CLEANING. 

If she is cleaning only one corner for hours then something may be mentally wrong with her. I mean no disrespect, just something to consider.

Are you guys also hoarders?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Gseries said:


> I need the reality show as a bailout...ok, wife is stay at home mom....six kids, ages 16 to five. 5 girls....
> Some great feedback. I'm concerned over the what its, as in, what if they don't do as suggested?


No I was not suggesting that you need a reality show. I was suggesting that you and your wife do what is done on those reality shows to get your house back in order. 

I also suggested that you and she look at the FlyLady.net website to get help on how to organize and keep a house clean. It sounds like your wife is overwhelmed. I can see how she would be with 6 kids.

A year ago I hired a retired Navy guy from craigslist.com to help do what they do no those reality shows to a room in my house... the office/family room. My husband had it in a huge mess with things piles to the ceiling. There was no way to clean the room.

So with the extra man power of the Navy guy we removed everything from the room and put it on the patio. We cleaned windows, walls, carpet, etc. Then we put back the minimal amount furnature, books, etc back in the room. Everything that did not go back in the room either went to good will or the dump.

The room now neat and clean. It's been easy to deal with every since. 

This is what I'm talking about. It's been 17 years and 6 kids later... maybe it's time do something drastic to help your wife get things back under control.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Gseries said:


> I need the reality show as a bailout...ok, wife is stay at home mom....six kids, ages 16 to five. 5 girls....
> Some great feedback. I'm concerned over the what its, as in, what if they don't do as suggested?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Then there is a consequence that is relative. For a teen, being grounded the next day (including from sports) will probably be a very big motivator. Or "until it gets done." 

For a five year old, it's probably sufficient to give a reminder and maybe assist him/her. This age isn't developed enough to use self-discipline, so forgetfulness shouldn't be punished, but remembering should definitely be praised. 

You can also use an incentive for them, since some people are motivated by avoiding unpleasant consequences, while others are motivated by an expectation of admiration/praise. For your teen, you probably have plenty of ideas on what can motivate them. Would "I'll pay for you and three friends to go see a movie if you keep up with this for 30 days" be enough? Probably, but if they're used to getting things like this anyway, it might require something else. For your five-year olds, picking out something from the dollar store may be plenty to make them eager. 

I used the "cool points" system with my children. It worked AMAZINGLY until they reached their teen years. Your oldest two might not benefit, but this is a super easy way to gain cooperation if you're interested.


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## heavensangel (Feb 12, 2012)

Something we did when our kids were middle - high school years. Considering how hard it is for kids to give US money for anything...we took advantage of this.....

We'd pay them their allowance in $1 bills on Fridays; then for each day their chore did not get done w/o them being reminded, they had to pay us a $1. They hated it!!! It eventually got to a point where their chores were done on a more consistent basis. 

Your 16 yr olds - are they working outside the home? Do they have paying jobs? Did your wife ever work outside the home? 
I'm having a real hard time understanding, even with children at home, how your house can be in such shambles when your W is a SAHM...... What does she do while the kids are at school?


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Gseries said:


> Ok all replies are fair enough. The kids working thing has been an epic fail....sports and schoolwork pretty much take out the older ones....and as mentioned, I don't have time after work to mentor little ones. As for my spouse....isn't it mixed up for me being the one willing to trade romance for housecleaning???
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Of course they need sports and to do homework but they need to do chores as well. They need to learn discipline and responsibility at home. 

Let me tell you how to do thus ...... it takes 15 mins to lightly clean the bathroom every day, if you do it efficiently. If you have lots of kids assign two of them for each bathroom everyday. Rotate chores - load the dishwasher and get it started, wash the kitchen floor with a swifter every evening put away toys, clean table... 

Put names and a list of chores on the fridge. Decide on a reward system. 

Dont you think that by not interacting with your children and teaching them discipline by example, you are abdicating your responsibilities as a father and head of household? I don't think work is ever an excuse. 

Can you look at yourself honestly? How well are you interacting with your wife and kids? Take the focus from your wife and really look. You are blessed with lots of kids. 

It was your decision to have them therefore, you have to take on the responsibility to do the extra work that a large family entails. You work so your wife has the most to do. 

You can show her by example. I bet you have an executive position. You get people to do things for the common good every day. You can do this. Someone has to start though , why not you.


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## Gseries (Jan 6, 2013)

Thanks, more good encouragement. I'm reading posts between reviewing trig and biology hw and dishes ok and watching notre dame get blown out.
I do manage for a living. I get accused of treating family like my staff how funny is that. What I meant by not having enough time to mentor was based on physical time available.....I spend a lot of time teaching at home but sometimes u gotta roll up the sleeves and get the work done.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

OP, the only thing you should be doing around the house after work is taking it in turns with your kids to wash the dinner dishes. Everything else should be taken care of by the time you get home. Weekends and holidays are different - then you should all pitch in and stick to a roster.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

G how about this. Instead of you doing chores, supervise the kids to do them. If they look at TV and play video games, they have 20 mins to clean up the place where they live. 

You should not be doing dishes after working all day when you have kids sitting around! These are simple task. The kids are home schooled? Your wife controls their time so they can do some chores during their break? 

I don't think you or your wife are approaching this problem correctly. Chores are family tasks not parental task. It is not up to you and your wife to be servents to your kids. 

If your kids think you are dictatorial, change your approach to make the task more palatable. Be more playful but firm.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Gseries said:


> I need the reality show as a bailout...ok, wife is stay at home mom....six kids, ages 16 to five. 5 girls....
> Some great feedback. I'm concerned over the what its, as in, what if they don't do as suggested?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ooh, I have 5 daughters too (and 3 sons)

Giving birth to a baby every 2 years for a decade or two, nursing, waking up at nights, juggling the activities for so many children of such different ages.... totally exhausting

How old is your wife? During perimenopause I was utterly drained for @2 years.

The danger of you trying to get *her *to do anything is that she will hear it as criticism. Ask her what you can do to help her with housekeeping, and how about you take initiative with your children? You can sit down and have a family meeting with them and solicit ideas for how the family can work together to *help* their mother. 

Many years ago, my firstborn daughter (who has high standards for housekeeping) suggested a system of chores on colored index cards which rotate weekly. They brainstormed the chores to be included and then they each had a week where they did those chores. The bathroom won't get as clean when the 5 yo is doing it, but the 14 yo might have it the next week. We used that system for years and the idea came from *the children*.


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## Gseries (Jan 6, 2013)

Catherine, it is a bit depressing but I try...I'm the chief motivator and cleaning advocate. Some of the posts earlier about consequences for kids....what I really was looking for was what are the consequences for my wife? We r in such a good relationship. It could be great if we could solve this....as a SAHM I k.ow more about what she doesn't do during the day than what she does. But I can piece together a rough timeline. There is definitely a lot of Facebook time and television watching. And the reason I made casual references to sex previously is because she has become insatiable in her early forties and I'm pretty sure she spends a bit of time in the self satisfaction department. So I guess if I could delete Facebook and sell the tv I would be happier. I sensed a fight starting when I suggested the dishes needed to be done over the phone while away on short business trip. This isn't me being a jerk, its because the first thing I always do when I get home is spend an hour catching up on the overflowing sink. This makes her feel bad and I get critiqued. I don't understand.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LdyVenus (Dec 1, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> You could assign a clean spot for each kid to create, too. They won't do the job perfectly, but if you expect progress rather than perfection, it will benefit everyone.


You could put the "mommy needs help" spin on it. So you don't really have to make her feel inadequate.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Can you just leave the dishes in the sink? They are not essential. When they run out, someone will notice. 

The same thing with other task. The real problem is everyone knows Dad is going to step into the breach. 

Don't do it. What do you think will happen? Certainly the house will not fall down around you. It may get uncomfortable but someone will be motivated when they run out of undies and sports uniforms. 

Do as much as you need to fulfill you part of the household chore and no more. 

Let them know that you resigned your position as the unpaid house frau. Do it in a light humorous way.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Gseries said:


> I sensed a fight starting when I suggested the dishes needed to be done over the phone while away on short business trip. This isn't me being a jerk, its because the first thing I always do when I get home is spend an hour catching up on the overflowing sink. This makes her feel bad and I get critiqued. I don't understand.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It should make her feel bad. If she's a SAHM attending to the house is her job, not yours.

What on earth does she spend her day doing? She can't be home schooling the children all day long. 

It isn't good, either, that your children are being exposed to such slovenly behaviour, as they might carry that over into their own adult lives.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Seems like the "clean spot" cleaners are often perfectionist. They clean that spot VERY good but ingore the rest.

Maybe you can change the location of the clean spot and when you help clean, you can be the "clutter cleaner" which doesn't take that much time.

Now this does change a little depending on yours and her work status and if you have children or not. One spouse shouldn't be burdened to clean the rest of the house due to the other's OCD. More info would clear up many of our thoughts.


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## Gseries (Jan 6, 2013)

I work she doesn't - kids go to public schools. I don't think OCD is mine, I'm just looking for the basic. Clean enough routes through house and stairs for fire escape!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Gseries said:


> I work she doesn't - kids go to public schools. I don't think OCD is mine, I'm just looking for the basic. Clean enough routes through house and stairs for fire escape!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Then it's reasonable to ask her to keep the house clutter free and make noise if she doesn't. It's also reasonable to make your children pick up after themselves and to make them clean up as well (but she should help you do this). Personally I think it's valuable to their character and their ability to be self sufficient in the grownup world where thing's aren't fair.

No beating around the bush. Just ask. If you work and you also help around the house then you're doing your part. If your wife won't keep up the clutter then make the kids do it. It may not be fair but so be it.


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## Gseries (Jan 6, 2013)

Lots of angst with dads 'new' attitude. Wife blames everything but herself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Gseries said:


> Lots of angst with dads 'new' attitude. Wife blames everything but herself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It takes time for people to accept and embrace change.

Is the house any cleaner?


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Gseries said:


> Lots of angst with dads 'new' attitude. Wife blames everything but herself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Dad isn't the problem. In time they'll come to see that. Hopefully, given time, your W will also shift her blame to where it belongs. People tend to hate change - particularly if it actually means they have to do something...


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Hang in there. When you unset the dynamic, there is a little chaos at first. You sound as if you are going to revert to old habits. Don't do it. 

Let them sulk, get angry try to blame you and try to guilt you back into being everyone's unpaid servant. Stand firm. You are doing what is best for your family. They need to learn personal responsibility. 

Plus they have to appreciate what they have. They have you and they have no idea how good that is. They need to feel your absence before it dawns on them that they have it very good. 

Don't capitulate now keep going toward.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Gseries said:


> Ok all replies are fair enough. The kids working thing has been an epic fail....sports and schoolwork pretty much take out the older ones....and as mentioned, I don't have time after work to mentor little ones. As for my spouse....isn't it mixed up for me being the one willing to trade romance for housecleaning???
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


They dont necessarily have to "clean" once there is a mess made.Thats different than not contributing to mess in the 1st place.Example don't leave your dishes sitting after you finish using them place them IN the dishwasher.NEVER throw your clothes or towels on the floor hang them up or put in laundrey basket.After you play with a toy/puzzle/read a book ...PUT back WHERE it goes.Excuse me it takes 2 or 3 minutes to make your bed.For the older ones DO THAT in the morning.


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## Gseries (Jan 6, 2013)

Yes totally agree. Hang in there? No other options right!
I think the dishes are classic example....I make dinner, feed everyone then everyone bolts. Then I get crap from everyone for not participating in family movie night. Hello. Table full of food and dishes, my idiodic self the only one who cares. Anyways thanks for the support!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gseries (Jan 6, 2013)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Gseries said:


> Ok all replies are fair enough. The kids working thing has been an epic fail....*sports and schoolwork pretty much take out the older ones*....and as mentioned, I don't have time after work to mentor little ones.


Un-think this if you love your children. Life won't make excuses for them but they'll sure make excuses for themselves if you teach it. 1: do schoolwork, 2: do chores, 3: do sports, 4: do leisure stuff. In that order. If you think they can't handle it then you're selling them short. 



Gseries said:


> As for my spouse....isn't it mixed up for me being the one willing to trade romance for housecleaning???
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do housecleaning because you love her or want to but NEVER EVER do housecleaning expecting ANYTHING in return.


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## Gseries (Jan 6, 2013)

Part of the original post was intended to highlight me whining that I can't do it alone. If I get home from.work and none of the kids priorities have been enforced by my other half, then my position isn't weakened, its impossible. I don't trade chores for sex as much as I have trouble enjoying the magic in sex when I'm angry about the housecleaning. That to me is irony from everything o hear and read about other marriages. I have a one percent deep fear that I get a lot of sex to keep me off from her back about the housecleaning.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

daisygirl 41 said:


> How about just being honest with her. Tell her you hate living in a dirty house and its getting you down. Work out a plan to get the house cleaned up and uncluttered. There's very few excuses for living in a dirty house esp when you have children living there. I'm not a clean freak but my house is clean and relatively tidy always. It's too much to do all at once so it can be broken down into priorities. Bathroom and kitchen should be done regularly the. The rest can be done on scheduled days.
> 
> Much better to be honest with her now and risk hurting her feelings than holding this in for years and becoming more and more resentful. She's a big girl. She'll get over it!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes!

And, while you're at it, head her off and say that you don't think spending a couple hundred bucks per month on occasional cleaning is a smart way to spend your money. Then, offer to round everyone up to pitch in (along with her) to get the house where it needs to be with the understanding she won't just let it deteriorate.

An alternate (and more drastic solution) would be to just clean what you must as easily as possible, which means throwing all the crap she doesn't want to deal with into her clean spot. Don't let her exist in a bubble where she is content in her own little clean corner and gets to be oblivious to the conditions in which the rest of family must exist.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Gseries said:


> Part of the original post was intended to highlight me whining that I can't do it alone. If I get home from.work and none of the kids priorities have been enforced by my other half, then my position isn't weakened, its impossible. I don't trade chores for sex as much as I have trouble enjoying the magic in sex when I'm angry about the housecleaning. That to me is irony from everything o hear and read about other marriages. I have a one percent deep fear that I get a lot of sex to keep me off from her back about the housecleaning.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I totally get it. The details are different from other folks (usually the sex goes away when tensions like this develop). But, at the core, you're troubled that your wife picks and chooses which responsibilities to meet and pooh-poohs the rest of it, rather than responding to your needs or (with kids) simply doing what is necessary.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Can you just leave the dishes in the sink? They are not essential. When they run out, someone will notice.


From a straight practical perspective, doing the dishes is the last place I would cut back. It's just unsanitary. I tried exactly that with my ex, and she let it go until there were maggots in the sink (doesn't take but a week at most). It's gross and will smell up the house. Plus, it she's that lazy she'll probably grab a paper plate or a TV dinner.

I would stick with non-sanitary issues like letting her pump her own gas, wash her own clothes, do her own dusting and vacuuming, buy only what you want from the store, etc. The impact will be just as quick, without the "ick".


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Cosmos said:


> How about drawing up a weekly roster and getting the whole family involved? For example:-
> 
> Cooking: A
> Set Table: B
> ...


Like the rotation. No complaints about "this job sucks" because everybody has to do it.

Teach them all to clean as they go and to minimize the mess they make (to minimize clean-up time).

Also, do it yourself with them helping and show it does not take long to do. My house is by no means spotless. But I can keep everything tidy (vacuum, sweep and mop, dishes, appliances, three bathrooms, countertops, laundry, dust, swimming pool) and do regular errands in about 8 hours every two weeks. It's only longer if I clean windows or get new plants for the garden.
Caveat: I have a gardener to do the basic mowing, sweeping, and trimming. Helps the allergies greatly.

I know it's only me, my daughter half time, and my dog. But, having a family of six is not going to quadruple the work. Bottom line: a little care and 3 diligent hours per week per person and the home should look good if not great. Demonstrate this to everyone and demand better.


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## Gseries (Jan 6, 2013)

I appreciate the feedback I really do but I just wanted to make 1 additional comment for the general population. I actually do think having 6 kids is a multiplier not just an addition to tasks....think homework sports and transportation issues, as well as each 1 wanting own unique individual quality time . Full time management!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

Have you stopped congratulating her on the one corner she cleans for hours? 

Seriously, be the change. Start with the living room. Clear it completely out & leave only the couch, TV, coffee table, lamps & the remote control. Everything off the floor. Ged rid of all family pictures, knick-knacks, everything like your getting ready to sell. Declare it a mess-free zone. If the childen leave their shoes & backpacks in the living room, toss them in their bedrooms. Announce to the family that you will no longer tolerate a messy living room as it your new sancutary. They will all get used to it.

If the children throw a fit, who cares. If your wife throws a fit, have a conversation (not fighting) with her.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Gseries said:


> I appreciate the feedback I really do but I just wanted to make 1 additional comment for the general population. I actually do think having 6 kids is a multiplier not just an addition to tasks....think homework sports and transportation issues, as well as each 1 wanting own unique individual quality time . Full time management!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm the youngest of 6 (family of 8) and all those things got done without either of my parents having to fetch, carry and pick up after any of us beyond infancy.

Teaching children basic hygiene and tidiness is actually equipping them with the necessary tools to take care of themselves in later life.

Seriously, OP, your W needs to stop behaving like one of the kids and organize and teach your children how to be clean, tidy and helpful around the home. Otherwise, they're going to become badly unstuck one day when they share accommodation with others...


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

I'm kind of late to the discussion, so sorry if this has been mentioned before, but - obsessively cleaning one spot while ignoring everything else kind of sounds like OCD, or possibly some other emotional/mental thing. Rather than hiring a cleaning crew, saving the money for her (possibly with you) to go talk to a professional about this, and see if there isn't some deeper underlying problem.


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

Gseries said:


> I was under the impression that our society no longer accepted the man who comes home from work and then asks where dinner is and why the house is a mess. I wish I could blame the creator of farmville...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hahaha this. 
"Society" doesnt pay my mortgage or keep the power on and food on the table. 
So their opinion is not relevant in my house. 
Heres the deal:
My wife is a sahm. She takes care of our daughter, does the majority of the cleaning and laundry, and cooks our dinner say 70% of the time. 
Our outlook on it is that my job "provides" for the family, her job "solidifies" the family. As in we do not have someone in daycare raising our child (soon to be children). 
She is ok with it, and obviously so am i because guess what im the captain of the ship and thats how i say things are going to be. 
And the people saying "get a cleaning lady"...LOL, seriously? With (if i read correctly) ONE child that is not in school??? Thats preposterous. Laughable. Perhaps you just need to tell your wife instead of asking her. JMO. 
and the kids not helping...? We are teaching our daughter to clean her mess, pick up her toys and books and put them away before bed. She does a pretty good job of it so far. 
Shes eighteen months old. And you cant get your older kids to do anything? Let alone the teenagers?
Let me repeat that...my daughter is eighteen months old, and she cleans up after herself reasonably well (she tries anyways bless her heart 
Good luck. I think you may be on the right path, but you certainly need to firm up your boundaries and requirements o the family as the LEADER.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Gseries said:


> Part of the original post was intended to highlight me whining that I can't do it alone. If I get home from.work and none of the kids priorities have been enforced by my other half, then my position isn't weakened, its impossible. I don't trade chores for sex as much as I have trouble enjoying the magic in sex when I'm angry about the housecleaning. That to me is irony from everything o hear and read about other marriages. I have a one percent deep fear that I get a lot of sex to keep me off from her back about the housecleaning.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Please re-read my post here

Pay special attention to the part about how bearing (nursing, getting up nights, and schlepping) is so draining its like having the life get sucked out of you and being left in a heap on the floor... and it all caught up with me in my early 40's. I was like a rag doll- absolutely NO energy anymore.

That lasted for about two years. Then my energy rebounded.

So, if I was you, I'd drop the resentment toward your wife about housecleaning, be thankful that her sex drive hasn't dried up too, and start teaching and role modelling to your children great appreciation for the woman who gave them life at such massive personal expense to her body.

My husband didn't do this but I had better trained children and they have always had chores. Your children need to step up and help. Sports and activities are optional and can be cut if they don't step up and start helping out more. (I also hired a housekeeper for two years because I was soooo tired and I needed it for my own sanity)


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Gseries said:


> I appreciate the feedback I really do but I just wanted to make 1 additional comment for the general population. I actually do think *having 6 kids is a multiplie*r not just an addition to tasks....think homework sports and transportation issues, as well as each 1 wanting own unique individual quality time . Full time management!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yep. Most people have *no idea*!

I changed 40,000 diapers and washed 100000 socks and was pregnant or nursing a baby for 16 years! And everyday at my house the amount of cooking and dishes is what most people do only at Thanksgiving.

You know GSeries, my husband is unlike you (never helped). When he complained that his socks were not placed in his drawer by color coded organization, I stopped putting his laundry in the drawer. When he complained (when I had my energy rebound and went back to school full time) that his laundry was not done, I stopped doing his laundry. *You can stop doing all the stuff you are doing. And you can assign chores and pull activities and privileges (from the children, not your wife!) until the chores are done.*


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Gseries said:


> I appreciate the feedback I really do but I just wanted to make 1 additional comment for the general population. I actually do think having 6 kids is a multiplier not just an addition to tasks....think homework sports and transportation issues, as well as each 1 wanting own unique individual quality time . Full time management!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We have 6 too...4 of them in outside activities ... we don't live in town either, so lots of running ...our house is decently clean...I can't go to sleep if it looks like a bomb hit, or dirty dishes in my sink. I even get in a bad mood if my house is in disarray, I have to have things in their place. 

I didn't read all of these replies, if she is a SAHM, I don't see any excuses....unless she was disabled, this last reply just said 1 child at home. 

Now if she worked, I would say...get a cleaning lady. 

I do feel some people are just born Messys.. almost like a genetic thing, I've seen it run in families...in my husbands side even......it was the biggest contention in my Parents in Law's marriage..... She was a Hoarder...he came from a family that was so clean, you could eat off the floor, they managed to stay married, but more fights over her JUNK, than anything else under the sun...

She used to whine to me about him, and I had to keep my mouth shut...I wanted to tell her..."Look, if you was my wife, I'd shut off all your money until the junk was gone & the house was clean"... I don't think that would go over well ! 

He would burn her stuff if she left the house, she stopped leaving the house. Ridiculous. 

He should have nipped it in the butt earlier in his marriage , laying down the law, those consequences -beings she got way out of hand... but he didn't. So the Junk grew. 

Can't be easy to get them to change after years of living like this, you have enabled it to some degree. 

I make our kids clean up or their life will not have privileges.... No Hoarders taking after Grandma living under our roof.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

If the children don't help, maybe she just drowned in the amount of work? My house would be a mountain of unopened mail and cast aside toys and clothes if I never got any help all those years...

Just keeping them "mothered" and fed with clean clothes was already 120hours/week


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

My mom was a hoarder and she never focused on a spot and cleaned it. 

Once when she had her hip replaced and the social worker told me she needed to have more room to get around with the walker, I snuck 20 garbage bags full of decades old clothes out the window and when she realized, she screamed obscenities at me in front of my husband and young children.

THAT is a "hoarder". The things are more important than the people. I think GSeries wife *may *just be overwhelmed, buried, tired, and depressed.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Gseries said:


> I appreciate the feedback I really do but I just wanted to make 1 additional comment for the general population. I actually do think having 6 kids is a multiplier not just an addition to tasks....think homework sports and transportation issues, as well as each 1 wanting own unique individual quality time . Full time management!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Raising kids is tough business. Granted, it's easy for us to throw darts since we're looking from the outside in but sometimes that's where the best view is. I look back at things I did raising my own kids where I should have been a little tougher but it's very tiring to always be policing everyone.

It seems like the general level of responsibility of all family members is what needs to improve but maybe some of the little details are just symptoms. Have you looked into materials that you and your wife could read. Whether it's tough love material or just Dr Phil type material, there are common themes. It'll be really tough though unless you can get your wife on board that personal responsibility and everyone pulling some of the weight is truly for the well being of your children into adulthood.

One think important is; don't be afraid to be the bad guy. Kids need the bad guy to be someone they know loves them.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

How about this- ask her if she would like to go on a relaxing vacation for a week this summer and you and the kids work with a Professional Organizer to get the house dug out? How to Hire a Professional Organizer | National Association of Professional Organizers

If you can dig out from under the years of clutter, I think the chores and maintenance would be much easier for everyone.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Gseries said:


> I appreciate the feedback I really do but I just wanted to make 1 additional comment for the general population. I actually do think having 6 kids is a multiplier not just an addition to tasks....think homework sports and transportation issues, as well as each 1 wanting own unique individual quality time . Full time management!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, maybe, but I was just talking about getting the basics of managing a decent home. As was noted earlier, sports and activities really are optional (although homework is not). I don't know how many activities they have, but perhaps you need to cut back?

Nobody benefits if the home is not inviting and peaceful, and that can't happen readily (if at all) if you guys aren't working together. Putting anything else before that enables avoidance and doesn't make sense.


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## Gseries (Jan 6, 2013)

1. Potential psychological issues for W...how do I tee that one up?
2. Me be a better leader...truth hurts...how did I get here at home...(my irony of being relatively high ranking officer)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Gseries said:


> 1. Potential psychological issues for W...how do I tee that one up?
> 2. Me be a better leader...truth hurts...how did I get here at home...(my irony of being relatively high ranking officer)


Being a high ranking officer does nothing to help a person be a leader at home. Two very different leader styles are needed. At home you cannot just order people to do something. You have to come up with the solution and then start to implement the solution so as to lead by example. This is especially true with children (regardless of their age).

I’ve given you two very good suggestions on how to get started to tackle the situation. One was to hire someone to help get the place cleaned up so that you have a baseline clean house to start with. You can even do this one room at a time. It sounds like the house, to include the attic is just too over cluttered to make it a one weekend job. So break it up in to doable chunks.

Then I gave you a link to FlyLady.net. You could use that site to help you and your wife put together a plan for housekeeping, etc.

These worked for me to get a household cleared of clutter and a house hold a lazy people doing things on a regular basis. 

But you seem to have blown off those ideas.


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## curlysue321 (Jul 30, 2012)

Your wife is a perfectionist slob. Her standards are so high that nothing gets done. I'd just tell her nicely what is important to you like having the dishes done.


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## Gseries (Jan 6, 2013)

I will take the advice even if delivered from the top rope....however, btdt as my kids say. To answer the charge, I've got the fly lady calendar, timer and coffee mug. My analogy is easy....you can't get in shape just by joining a gym....and u cant clean a house just by visiting a website (or spending money at a free service, how did that happen?)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Gseries said:


> I will take the advice even if delivered from the top rope....however, btdt as my kids say. To answer the charge, I've got the fly lady calendar, timer and coffee mug. My analogy is easy....you can't get in shape just by joining a gym....and u cant clean a house just by visiting a website (or spending money at a free service, how did that happen?)


You spent money on the fly lady stuff? Ha! I never did. Just used an old 3 ring binder and make my own papers up.

I hope you have luck with what she suggests. She suggests those 15 minute pickups. Maybe get your family doing them. Assign them each a pile of junk to get rid of and a trash bag. Tell the kids that the one who clears out the most junk in 15 minutes gets a prize... even it's just an ice cream cone that only the winner gets.

I used to have cleaning parties when the kids were high school age and younger. Would order pizza. When the task was done we'd have a pizza party.


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

Just my 2 cents


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

I have one child that lives at home and my husband who is 44 years old (he might as well be a child) I clean and clean and it seems like i NEVER get anything done.. I just get to the point as say hell with it all..


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## Bellavista (May 29, 2012)

ladybird said:


> Just my 2 cents


Oh dear, I am a baaaaad mum. I have a clean house.

We have 5 kids, only 2 of whom are left at home. They had to help tidy & clean, from the time they were old enough to understand simple instructions.

I cannot cope with chaos in my house, it sends me into meltdown. When the kids were little, they had a play room that they were expected to tidy up at the end of each day. I also had a separate lounge room that was the adult place, there were no toys in there at all. They could sit in there & read, but not play.

I figured it was my house as well as theirs & they needed to learn to respect my space & my items. I was also big on teaching them to respect their items. If they treated something we bought them poorly, I would tell them how many hours we had to work to provide that for them. Not to make them feel guilty, but to teach them the value of their things.

They used to get special treats for hard work. Every two months or so, they would all have to get out in the yard for a big prune & clean up. Now these days, they say they had to pick up all of the sticks & stones in the blazing sun for just a chocolate frog, but that is not true. We would get them takeaway food on these occasions. Chocolate frogs were for doing smaller indoor tasks.

Not every woman is naturally tidy & organized. I have seen more messies than tidiers in my life. Our youngest daughter hates to be tidy, my MIL never puts anything away, my SILs (all of them) are atrocious when it comes to their houses. I remember one SIL telling me she spent all weekend cleaning her house & it got messy again. I don't think she has cleaned since then.


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## Gseries (Jan 6, 2013)

I intentionally left the MIL part out of this. Her house was quite the dichotomy from what I grew up with. But I think its hard for me to have anticipated a "like mother like daughter" thing when we got married. They don't teach us that in part in school right? One day when inlaws visited MIL made a joke about house cleaning. Seriously put a huge hit in our relationship because of what's posted here. I was like....thanks u sucked as a parent, raised a slob and now I'm dealing with it and u think it's funny????
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Gseries said:


> I intentionally left the MIL part out of this. Her house was quite the dichotomy from what I grew up with. But I think its hard for me to have anticipated a "like mother like daughter" thing when we got married. They don't teach us that in part in school right? One day when inlaws visited MIL made a joke about house cleaning. Seriously put a huge hit in our relationship because of what's posted here. I was like....thanks u sucked as a parent, raised a slob and now I'm dealing with it and u think it's funny????
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And you don't want history repeating itself with your kids, OP. Time to put the brakes on and teach them what they should've learned years ago.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

God grant me the serenity 
to accept the things I cannot change; 
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

Can't change your wife (and I wonder if she feels your resentment/rejection over this issue?). 

Can change the training of the children as many on the thread have suggested. Can drop doing anything you do which goes unappreciated and makes you feel resentful.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

moxy said:


> Hire a cleaning lady/team. It will help you stop arguing about the mess and catch up on the overwhelming task.
> 
> Then, declutter and make sure each thing has a home by organizing. Get her on board with this by posing it as a joint project and not the result of some shortcoming of hers or yours.
> 
> I had a lot of clutter in closets and unused rooms. When stbxh complained about it, it made me defensive. When we tackled it together and then redecorated, it became less about blame and more about cooperation; it was even enjoyable.


I like this. In fact, this is the only thing that works. For a while, we had to hire help and that worked for a while.
Now, it's a joint effort. If I start to de-clutter and organize on the weekend, almost ALL the time, my wife will step in and help. I have to initiate. We actually did this yeasterday with our daughters play room. All 3 of us were organizing. We had 3 large bags of junk we threw away.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Gseries said:


> I intentionally left the MIL part out of this. Her house was quite the dichotomy from what I grew up with. *But I think its hard for me to have anticipated a "like mother like daughter" thing when we got married. They don't teach us that in part in school right?* One day when inlaws visited MIL made a joke about house cleaning. Seriously put a huge hit in our relationship because of what's posted here. I was like....thanks u sucked as a parent, raised a slob and now I'm dealing with it and u think it's funny????
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


School doesn't teach it and neither do parents so often. It's absurd that we have to learn so much with no prior input (maybe others had plenty of input but not me). You point out a clear case of using history and family dynamics to predict future dynamics. Other things like compatibility, respect, and so on. Would be nice for kids to hear a thing or two before learning the hard way. Ok, I'm off the soapbox.


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

My house is somewhat clean.. It is not a huge mess. I keep it clean =) My husbands mother is a tidy, neat freak. I wonder why my husband turned out to be a slob!?


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## Bellavista (May 29, 2012)

ladybird said:


> My house is somewhat clean.. It is not a huge mess. I keep it clean =) My husbands mother is a tidy, neat freak. I wonder why my husband turned out to be a slob!?


Well, I am a neat freak with my eldest & youngest kids being slobs.
Our 3rd son is a neat freak, when he lived at home he had his own cleaning products in his office area, he cleaned it constantly. Now he has moved out, he keeps his apartment very clean.
Number 2 son is married, he does help his wife but he loves to have cables strung all over the house. Seems to be some kind of fetish.. We always know when he is visiting, suddenly we will have cables running around our house.
Number 4, a daughter, is average, she will clean her room somedays, somedays not. She is fussy about the kitchen though & gets cross at anyone who leaves it messy. She currently works with me cleaning until she starts uni next month.

So, all of that to say, some people seem to be genetically pre-disposioned to messiness despite their upbringing.


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## Gseries (Jan 6, 2013)

Cables?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ladybird said:


> My house is somewhat clean.. It is not a huge mess. I keep it clean =) My husbands mother is a tidy, neat freak. I wonder why my husband turned out to be a slob!?


Did his neat freak mother pick up after him all the time so that he never learned to do it himself?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Gseries said:


> Yes totally agree. Hang in there? No other options right!
> I think the dishes are classic example....I make dinner, feed everyone then everyone bolts. Then I get crap from everyone for not participating in family movie night. Hello. Table full of food and dishes, my idiodic self the only one who cares. Anyways thanks for the support!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why did you let that happen? Why were the kids not clearing the table and doing the dishes? Why was you wife not assisting with the meal and clean up? 

If this is how they treat you, why do you ever cook for them?

You let this happen.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Blonde said:


> Please re-read my post here
> 
> Pay special attention to the part about how bearing (nursing, getting up nights, and schlepping) is so draining its like having the life get sucked out of you and being left in a heap on the floor... and it all caught up with me in my early 40's. I was like a rag doll- absolutely NO energy anymore.
> 
> ...


I gotta say this is a pretty tall order for him. She is a SAHM who does not work at all. He has two jobs - the one that brings in the paycheck, and the one when he gets home to take care of things. It is not clear that she does anything except leisure activities. This behavior would be completely unacceptable if it were a man, so I don't see how her having given birth to the kids gives her a free pass on being a parent.

I would also add that if a housekeeper is needed, then the wife should get a job. As it is, I don't see anything that she is contributing to the household right now.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> Did his neat freak mother pick up after him all the time so that he never learned to do it himself?


This happened with a roommate of mine. His mother kept her house perfect, but it was all by himself. He never learned to pick up anything. He was shocked when, three weeks into my decision to quit coddling him, I did not put his newly opened gallon of milk back in the fridge for him when he left it out. Things improved a bit after that.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Gseries said:


> I intentionally left the MIL part out of this. Her house was quite the dichotomy from what I grew up with. But I think its hard for me to have anticipated a "like mother like daughter" thing when we got married. They don't teach us that in part in school right? One day when inlaws visited MIL made a joke about house cleaning. Seriously put a huge hit in our relationship because of what's posted here. I was like....thanks u sucked as a parent, raised a slob and now I'm dealing with it and u think it's funny????
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Gseries,

The best thing you can do here is not let any of this bother you. If you need counseling to become less sensitive to home cleanliness issues, go get it. That's what I do. Don't feel sorry for yourself and don't spend a cent on outside help, this is just enabling bad behavior. Do your best to manage the situation at hand and let the rest pile up however high it gets. What you have here is three generations of immaturity and irresponsibility. You are totally outnumbered and almost (but not quite) completely powerless. In my humble opinion, this is a situation where natural consequences are the best consequences.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Cosmos said:


> Seriously, OP, your W needs to stop behaving like one of the kids and organize and teach your children how to be clean, tidy and helpful around the home. Otherwise, they're going to become badly unstuck one day when they share accommodation with others...


Absolutely correct but easier said than done


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Gseries said:


> I sensed a fight starting when I suggested the dishes needed to be done over the phone while away on short business trip. This isn't me being a jerk, its because the first thing I always do when I get home is spend an hour catching up on the overflowing sink. This makes her feel bad and I get critiqued. I don't understand.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sensing a fight starting and having a fight are two completely different things. Being overly conflict avoidant may be undermining your leadership. Don't be bashful about asking people to do what you think is needed. Let her own her feelings, if she feels bad when you empty the sink, so be it. When you get critiqued just say OK.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

You can make it very clear what you see that's not right. Her perception of what you want or find more and less important may not match what you mean when you ask for it so get rid of any ambiguity.

- Give you wife a list of things you would like for her to do that she's not doing now. (And recognise what she's already doing).
- Help her assign some of these to each kid.
- Police or help her police that the kids are doing their chores.
- Make sure your chores are listed too. The ones you're already doing.
- And the things your wife is already doing are listed.

And when you come home and things are good and right, show appreciation.


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## Gseries (Jan 6, 2013)

Ten year, r u speaking from experience?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Yes I am. There are a lot of factors in play here making for some difficult choices. Fyi, my mil and her drunken friends amused themselves making fun of my wife's housekeeping challenges on our wedding night. With the exception of one guy, they couldn't understand why I didn't think it was as funny as they did.


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## Gseries (Jan 6, 2013)

I like your answer. Misery loves company...
I sought out MC several years ago, but it required W participatation. I remember a lot of excuses for never going as a couple.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> I gotta say this is a pretty tall order for him. She is a SAHM who does not work at all. He has two jobs - the one that brings in the paycheck, and the one when he gets home to take care of things. It is not clear that she does anything except leisure activities. This behavior would be completely unacceptable if it were a man, so I don't see how her having given birth to the kids gives her a free pass on being a parent.


He was away on a business trip calling up to tell her to do the dishes. I'm afraid that strikes me as controlling and disrespectful and if he treats his wife like a child it is not going to help anything.

We are hearing one side of the story here. If his wife does nothing but sit on her butt all day watching soaps and doing FB then you might have a point. 

But, the husband travels (note- business trip away...) and they have 6 children who need clean clothes, food, and rides places. And IIRC isn't one of the children a preschooler age 4?

So, I really doubt she does nothing. But I could be wrong. 

Maybe the husband does all the laundry, cooking, grocery shopping, bill paying, mail sorting, driveway shoveling, lawn mowing, playing with preschooler, driving children around to their activities etc... 
times. six. children.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

I have eight (three are now adults), so I get the struggles of keeping a clean house with a bunch of kids.

One way to help control the mess is to make the kids responsible for cleaning up their messes and taking care of their room. Another thing we do is have a rotating chore chart for laundry, dishes, floors, etc. The kids are free to trade jobs if they so choose, but the person on the chart is still responsible if it doesn't get done.

The inside of our house won't make too many magazine covers, except for maybe National Geographic, but we avoid too many horrors.

For what it's worth, I take care of kitchen cleanliness for the most part, and am 50/50 with my SAHW on our bathroom.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Blonde said:


> He was away on a business trip calling up to tell her to do the dishes. I'm afraid that strikes me as controlling and disrespectful and if he treats his wife like a child it is not going to help anything.


I don't disagree. It is treating her like a child, though I understand his frustration. 



> We are hearing one side of the story here. If his wife does nothing but sit on her butt all day watching soaps and doing FB then you might have a point.


Well, that is what he has told us.



> But, the husband travels (note- business trip away...) and they have 6 children who need clean clothes, food, and rides places. And IIRC isn't one of the children a preschooler age 4?


Yes, but the rest are in school. He is complaining about not ebing able to walk through rooms, and dishes stacked up in the sink for days.



> So, I really doubt she does nothing. But I could be wrong.
> 
> Maybe the husband does all the laundry, cooking, grocery shopping, bill paying, mail sorting, driveway shoveling, lawn mowing, playing with preschooler, driving children around to their activities etc...
> times. six. children.


I can only go by what he says, like the post where he made dinner, then the entire family, including his wife, left him to clean up, then complained that he missed family movie night. Like post where he complains about the dishes that are never done, where he comes home from a trip and has to do them. Like wanting a pathway to walk through a room. Maybe he is lying.

My issue is that you did not address that. Rather, it sure looked like because she went through heck to give birth, he needs to suck it up and do all this because she is still willing to have sex with him. Again, a guy acts like this and he is called out every time, and rightly so. I fail to see why she gets a pass because she is a mother.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Gseries,
> 
> The best thing you can do here is not let any of this bother you. If you need counseling to become less sensitive to home cleanliness issues, go get it. That's what I do. Don't feel sorry for yourself and *don't spend a cent on outside help, this is just enabling bad behavior.*


I agree up to the bolded

Do you have 6 children TYH?

This mom has been very busy for many years unless this husband gestated them, changed all the diapers, got up nights to feed them, etc...

My children help with chores
But IF my children did not help with chores, I would have been so overwhelmed just keeping up with the basic stuff like clean clothes and food to eat that I would be buried in cast off clothing and toys and unopened mail by now. Hiring someone to help dig out from under 15 years of accumulated clutter would be a good investment for all concerned IMO.

If she failed, it was in training her children to help with chores. And that is where her husband has power IMO. You say he's powerless. When my son was a teen I kept him home from an important varsity soccer game over his attitude. And it worked. Sports are optional. Chores done or no sports.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I can only go by what he says, like the post where he made dinner, then the entire family, including his wife, left him to clean up, then complained that he missed family movie night.


I would've put movie night on hold until the kitchen was cleaned up, and worked alongside everyone else. It can be done in good cheer without being a hardass about it. Maybe the OP should do the same in the future.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Blonde said:


> He was away on a business trip calling up to tell her to do the dishes. I'm afraid that strikes me as controlling and disrespectful and if he treats his wife like a child it is not going to help anything.


I used to feel this way until I found out that leadership and responsibility are squarely on my shoulders regardless of how much, if any, of the burden my wife can bring herself to share. If the dishes need to be done, somebody has to do them. With all due respect, I can't see anything controlling or disrespectful about asking someone to clean up. Either they do it so someone else does or we start using paper plates. Disrespect, in my humble opinion, is thinking that everyone in one's household should live in a mess because you don't feel like helping out.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

GTdad said:


> I would've put movie night on hold until the kitchen was cleaned up, and worked alongside everyone else. It can be done in good cheer without being a hardass about it. Maybe the OP should do the same in the future.


I agree. No way I would have let anyone leave without helping. Heck, my 4 year old loves being a big girl and taking her plate over to the counter. 

And if they refused, I would have cooked dinner only for myself the next time.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

TAG, Point taken.

OK. I'll stop defending her and attempting to see the other side. 

She sits on her butt all day doing FB and watching soaps and everywhere you go in his house you have to navigate through narrow pathways of stacked up clutter and when he comes back from a business trip the dishes from the whole time are sitting untouched. (Plus, I'm picturing morbidly obese since she does nothing but sit on her butt!)

He still has power. Train the children.


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## Bellavista (May 29, 2012)

Gseries said:


> Cables?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Computer cords, even though we are wireless in the house.

Gseries, you are in a difficult situation, damned if you say something, damned to live in a mess if you don't.
Now personally, I have never bought the excuse that if you have kids, your house will be a tip.
Sure, there might be some toys, there might always be washing in the basket, but by being organized and making everyone responsible for some jobs, it can be kept on top of.
I cannot tell you how to get your family to help, there is no easy answer, but over time, you will build such a big pile of resentment at being left to do the cleaning, one day you might decide not to come home from a business trip. Perhaps that is something you need to talk to your wife about, but without threatening.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I can only go by what he says, like the post where he made dinner, then the entire family, including his wife, left him to clean up, then complained that he missed family movie night. Like post where he complains about the dishes that are never done, where he comes home from a trip and has to do them. Like wanting a pathway to walk through a room. Maybe he is lying.
> 
> My issue is that you did not address that. Rather, it sure looked like because she went through heck to give birth, he needs to suck it up and do all this because she is still willing to have sex with him. Again, a guy acts like this and he is called out every time, and rightly so. I fail to see why she gets a pass because she is a mother.


This is exactly the way we do it at my house. My priority is cleanliness and my wife's priority is entertainment so I clean up after dinner while she watches TV. I'm really not interested in movies but I don't want to keep the kids doing something they want with their mom just because I'm not that into it. When they complain about my missing, I assume they are kidding.

The differences between me and my wife regarding housework are cultural and specific to our families of origin. When she makes an effort in the bedroom, I am more than able to accept our other differences. If this is the same for the op, my advice to him is to figure out how to feel good about it.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Either they do it so someone else does or we start using paper plates.


*Start * using paper plates? :smnotworthy:

How many children do you have?

How often do you have 8 people over for a meal?

Thanksgiving? Christmas?

I suggested paper plates away back on page one. 

At my house (even with paper plates), the dishwasher is run 2-3X per day. The 12yos loads, the 10yos unloads, the 15yod sets the table, clears the table, and wipes the table, and the 17yod washes all the pots, pans, and anything else that doesn't go in the dw.

And my husband instituted this chore roster.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Blonde said:


> He still has power. Train the children.


This is the point I am getting to but it is easier said than done. My mother trained me and I train my kids. But I have a lot of other stuff on my plate so something has to give. I shave time here and there to free up time to be with the kids and train them. I do less work on my job, I don't fix stuff of do yard work until it is an emergency.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Recently the 15yod objected to the foam plates as "environmentally unfriendly" and was setting glassware all the time. So I switched her with the 12 yos. That way if it's glass, she has more work and if I see a pile next to the sink, the 12yo sets foam plates without environmentalist angst. 

Off to do my share now and cook


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Blonde said:


> *Start * using paper plates? :smnotworthy:
> 
> How many children do you have?
> 
> ...


That's one big relief, we never have anyone over except my friends. My kids (3 under 10 btw) need someone to show them how to load, unload, set clear, wipe and wash and all that stuff and they need to be shown more than once. No matter how you slice it, this takes time, it takes more time than doing it yourself and that time has to come out of somebody's day. In our house, that would be me.


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## Gseries (Jan 6, 2013)

So much to think about....I will use bullets for expediency
1 I read about paper plates in a parenting book for big families, it works by extending the dishwasher cycle 24 hours. It is not uncommon to do 3 loads per day on weekends.
2 thank you all for not going there about why we have 6 kids because they are awesome and BTW we just needed that son...6th times a charm
3 the kids r trainable, I will cede that, I'm just suggesting I can't be full time trainer with limited time at home
4 who will this offend....my career probably suffered, and will end, with the extra effort needed at home plus zero ability to entertain
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I've read through about 6 pages of this, so please ignore if this has already been said ad nauseum.

I have two sisters who act EXACTLY like your W. Their houses are messes except for the one focal area that they've selected, which is then essentially sterilized.

They both have OCD. One has been treated for years for it. The other refuses to acknowledge it although it clearly runs in our family (without treatment, btw, she makes everyone around her miserable).

I would suggest changing the terminology on your W to get some recognition from her. Don't call it 'the clean spot.' Call it 'W's spot' (insert your W's name).


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Blonde said:


> TAG, Point taken.
> 
> OK. I'll stop defending her and attempting to see the other side.
> 
> She sits on her butt all day doing FB and watching soaps and everywhere you go in his house you have to navigate through narrow pathways of stacked up clutter and when he comes back from a business trip the dishes from the whole time are sitting untouched. (Plus, I'm picturing morbidly obese since she does nothing but sit on her butt!)


Again, my issue is not the defense, but the form it took. Your initial post sure read like he should be grateful that she gave birth to the children, so back off. Your later post gave some insights into what she may be doing to contribute that he does not realize. Pose those to the OP and figure out if he is being accurate in his characterization. 



> He still has power. Train the children.


On this, I absolutely agree. He needs to train them and lead them and his wife by example.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Your initial post sure read like he should be grateful that she gave birth to the children, so back off.


No.

Read it again. NOT merely "give birth" which takes what- 24 hours max?

Gestated for nine months each at great personal expense to her body and energy.

Did she breastfeed? Again, sucks loads of energy and time

Who changed diapers? It was 40,000 for me with 8 children.

Who did/does laundry? Socks alone was 100,000 for me- mostly matched.

I'm back to thinking it's trivializing and devaluing her to say that popping them out and sitting on her butt is all she ever did.

When my husband was unemployed I got a job as a CNA in a nursing home wiping old people butts. Had 8-14 of them to get up get dressed, feed, do incontinent care, etc... 40 hours of that was an absolute CAKE WALK compared to the 120 hour days when my children were gestating, nursing, and toddling.

When he was unemployed and he was doing everything on the homefront, that is when he instituted the dishes chore routine.


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## Joanie (Oct 24, 2010)

I cannot imagine living in a home like the one the OP wrote about. Your home is your sanctuary and to come home to a mess like you described would make me not want to come home! Maybe things have gone too far and it is OVERWHELMING for your wife to figure out how to get this mess under control. That happens, I get it. It should never get to that point! I suggest you hire someone to come in and go through the entire house with your wife and have it decluttered and cleaned. From that point on, your family has to keep up with all of it daily. I mean jeez...I have three kids, two dogs and work full time, and my house is always spotless. It can be done. I would have felt like a total loser when I was a stay at home mom when my kids were little and my house was a mess. Maybe I am wrong to say this but I felt that since I was affored the opportunity to be home with my kids it was my job to keep a nice home.


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## Gseries (Jan 6, 2013)

Looks like I killed this thread. I did try a few things and was able to integrate the youngest two into 'helping'.
There were tears from W though. One particular day I got home at six, no dinner, kids all hit me up for being hungry, W on Facebook, house still trashed. I just quietly said I couldn't cook for everybody. The young ones and I had a small snack, I put them to bed and I went to my room.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Gseries said:


> Looks like I killed this thread. I did try a few things and was able to integrate the youngest two into 'helping'.
> There were tears from W though. One particular day I got home at six, no dinner, kids all hit me up for being hungry, W on Facebook, house still trashed. I just quietly said I couldn't cook for everybody. The young ones and I had a small snack, I put them to bed and I went to my room.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why was your W in tears? I'm getting the impression that for some reason your W is so overwhelmed she cannot organize herself, let alone the children. Would she consider counseling? 

If anyone should be in tears here it's you, OP. You're doing a hard day's work and coming home to absolute chaos!


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Gseries said:


> Looks like I killed this thread. I did try a few things and was able to integrate the youngest two into 'helping'.
> There were tears from W though. One particular day I got home at six, no dinner, kids all hit me up for being hungry, W on Facebook, house still trashed. I just quietly said I couldn't cook for everybody. The young ones and I had a small snack, I put them to bed and I went to my room.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's hard to quit fixing and solving and doing for family so good job Gseries. I've had this problem before where it's easier to just do stuff than to wait for them to do it or ask them to. But enabling bites us in the rear.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

That's a good first step. Here's an article with some ideas. Especially, I think it's a good idea to communicate with your family what you are doing (backing off all this servant work for them) and why. Learned Helplessness: Are You Doing Too Much for Your Child?


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

I just finished reading your thread and I think you wife is overwhelmed. I know I get that way every once in a while with just 3 kids. Sometimes I think, "I'm going to clean this house spotless and within 24 hours it's going to be back to a disaster area, why bother". The overwhelmed feeling makes you kind of paralyzed to get started. I've used Flylady and she's great. There's another website I use called Motivated Moms that has an app for the phone or you can print off weekly checklists. It's very doable and not overwhelming at all. It covers all the daily basics, then has a few extra chores for each day of the week. I hope this helps.

BTW, I think what you did, (not cooking dinner, etc.), was good thing.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Gseries said:


> how do i say this without getting into another argument?


What's wrong with having another argument? It sounds like she just became more stubborn than you so you gave up and let her have it her way.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Gseries said:


> Looks like I killed this thread. I did try a few things and was able to integrate the youngest two into 'helping'.
> There were tears from W though. One particular day I got home at six, no dinner, kids all hit me up for being hungry, W on Facebook, house still trashed. I just quietly said I couldn't cook for everybody. The young ones and I had a small snack, I put them to bed and I went to my room.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 When was she in tears? After you went to your room and left her alone with the kids? Explain, please.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Get a posterboard, and write out every chore that has to be done. Leave columns for you and her and all the older kids. Call a family meeting and take turns signing up for what you will be responsible for. Letting her see which particular chores she has to get done each day can help her find a way to get it done. Are you willing to do this?


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## Gseries (Jan 6, 2013)

They appeared to be tears of frustration, as in "I can't do anything right" there was a brief statement of "I don't want to talk about it because u always win out arguments"
My thought was "define win" but I didn't say it.
After this brief encounter she made dinner after I solved all of her "why I couldn't make dinner" issues.
The big posterboard is probably the right way to go. Maybe this weekends project.
We don't have constructive arguments. I guess I'm a jerk but my debating skills are too well refined. I come off too condescending.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Blonde said:


> That's a good first step. Here's an article with some ideas. Especially, I think it's a good idea to communicate with your family what you are doing (backing off all this servant work for them) and why. Learned Helplessness: Are You Doing Too Much for Your Child?


What I like about this link GS is that you can discover and then own your role in this dynamic. Family dysfunctions are difficult to see because all sides have validity. It's the dynamc among everyone that becomes it's own little spinning wheel. Anything you read that's enlightening; your wife should read as well.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

So, you're a typical man who looks at arguments as a place to win. Dealing with a typical woman who sees it as a place to SOLVE something. Women retreat when men get aggressive that way.

Can you approach her and validate her and ASK HER how she feels? What her goals are? What she's missing out on? What she would change? Until you can do this, you'll never get anywhere - you are currently enemies, on opposing sides.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

On the posterboard, everyone takes turns. That way, each person (including the kids) can choose something that is not 'that bad' to them, so they're more likely to actually DO the chore. I'd rather dust than do dishes. So DH does the dishes. Like that.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Gseries said:


> They appeared to be tears of frustration, as in "I can't do anything right" there was a brief statement of "I don't want to talk about it because u always win out arguments"
> My thought was "define win" but I didn't say it.
> After this brief encounter she made dinner after I solved all of her "why I couldn't make dinner" issues.
> The big posterboard is probably the right way to go. Maybe this weekends project.
> ...


Debating skills are different from problem solving skills. If you don't start with some empathy and a level field and some mutual respect, you won't get the constructive conversation that leads to solutions.

Read the book 'The Greatest Gifts I Give my Children.' It is almost more important in its advice about how to talk to your spouse than your children.

Ten Greatest Gifts I Give My Children : Parenting from the Heart: Steven W. Vannoy: Amazon.com: Books


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## Gseries (Jan 6, 2013)

Wait! I am agreeing...that's why I said "define win", she said win not me....u made a sweeping generalization about men 
I am in agreement if I walk away from an argument and nothing changes there is no winning.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Gseries said:


> They appeared to be tears of frustration, as in "I can't do anything right" there was a brief statement of "I don't want to talk about it because u always win out arguments"


Tears of frustration? I'm really battling to understand this, OP. Unless your W is very depressed and lacking motivation, cleaning/tidying the house and getting a basic meal on the table in the evenings shouldn't be such a big a task that it leads to arguments. 

I've suffered from bouts of depression and found it very difficult to motivated myself in the past, and when this happens I write myself lists and try to stick to a timetable. If this is the case with your W, would it help if you offered to assist her draw up a daily timetable?


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

turnera said:


> So, you're a typical man who looks at arguments as a place to win. Dealing with a typical woman who sees it as a place to SOLVE something. Women retreat when men get aggressive that way.
> 
> Can you approach her and validate her and ASK HER how she feels? What her goals are? What she's missing out on? What she would change? Until you can do this, you'll never get anywhere - you are currently enemies, on opposing sides.


i dont know if im atypical or not, but i see arguments as a chance for both sides to compare logic and make decisions. 
i am extremely logical, my wife is not.
therefore i find it hard to come to a mutually satisfactory agreement many times because she cannot argue her point logically. that isnt necessarily "winning".
i dont see how a problem can be "solved" illogically. call me a pig i guess oink oink.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Gseries said:


> Wait! I am agreeing...that's why I said "define win", she said win not me....u made a sweeping generalization about men
> I am in agreement if I walk away from an argument and nothing changes there is no winning.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not really. Look up any textbook and you'll see the 'generalizations' that men act more aggressively than women and that women retreat when faced with it. 

I'm not saying you're beating your chest or anything. These things are VERY subtle. My H can bring me to my knees in self-doubt just by turning away from me in the midst of a discussion. 

YOUR job, if you want things to change, is to understand all this from HER side. You can't make her do anything. All you can do is figure out what she's thinking or wanting, and get her 'buy-in' on wanting the house picked up. How you arrive at that will be unique to your relationship. But if she is flat out saying 'you always win,' you can bet that she feels put upon by you and that you are now the enemy, not her partner. Nothing will change until you can get to the root of that.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Has she been medically checked for depression? A real possibility with that many kids.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

naga75 said:


> i dont know if im atypical or not, but i see arguments as a chance for both sides to compare logic and make decisions.
> i am extremely logical, my wife is not.
> therefore i find it hard to come to a mutually satisfactory agreement many times because she cannot argue her point logically. that isnt necessarily "winning".
> i dont see how a problem can be "solved" illogically. call me a pig i guess oink oink.


This is relative. If men define the term 'logical,' then it's no wonder that it reflects how they view the world. 

Experts claim that female methods for arguing and problem solving are just as systematic as male methods. They just reflect a different approach and understanding of the world around us.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

naga75 said:


> i dont know if im atypical or not, but i see arguments as a chance for both sides to compare logic and make decisions.
> i am extremely logical, my wife is not.
> therefore i find it hard to come to a mutually satisfactory agreement many times because she cannot argue her point logically. that isnt necessarily "winning".
> i dont see how a problem can be "solved" illogically. call me a pig i guess oink oink.


 Wow. Must be hard to be your wife.


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

logical vs emotional.
vulcan vs human.
sorry for the geekiness.


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

turnera said:


> Wow. Must be hard to be your wife.


haha. yeah. must be.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Spock's dad respected AND valued his mom for her humanness.


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

who says i dont value and respect my wife?
i merely stated that she argues from an illogical standpoint, often.
and whether a man defines logic or whatever, i am basing "illogical" on the textbook definition of logic. 
as in:
Definition of LOGIC
a (1): a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration : the science of the formal principles of reasoning


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

but anyways OP i really like the poster board idea. my sister and her husband do this with their two older kids and it works great. i plan on doing it with my children once they are old enough.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

naga75 said:


> who says i dont value and respect my wife?
> i merely stated that she argues from an illogical standpoint, often.
> and whether a man defines logic or whatever, i am basing "illogical" on the textbook definition of logic. or the opposite actually.
> as in:
> ...


With all due respect, men have traditionally done the defining in our world. It's only recently in our history that it isn't always the man's viewpoint that is assumed to be the unmarked basis from which everyone and everything else deviates.

And fyi - I have worked in lexicography for years, so using dictionary definitions will only twist you up, not help you. They reflect usage; they don't create or describe absolute realities.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Gseries said:


> After this brief encounter she made dinner after I solved all of her "why I couldn't make dinner" issues.


This is at the crux of it, in my opinion. What exactly were her "why I couldn't make dinner" issues? What was preventing her from doing it?

What prevents her from getting off Facebook to make dinner for the family (or do anything else?)


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> With all due respect, men have traditionally done the defining in our world. It's only recently in our history that it isn't always the man's viewpoint that is assumed to be the unmarked basis from which everyone and everything else deviates.
> 
> And fyi - I have worked in lexicography for years, so using dictionary definitions will only twist you up, not help you. They reflect usage; they don't create or describe absolute realities.


yeah. ok. i dont really think i need the "help", in this case, but anyways.
please educate me on the woman's definition of logic, since men have had it all wrong for the last few millennia. are there different priciples of reasoning that apply to women?:scratchhead:
the definition of logic is the definition of logic. i dont really see how that can be disputed, but i digress. agree to disagree.


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## Gseries (Jan 6, 2013)

Again, all interesting replies. What were the dinner issues? Inability to look at cupboards/refrigerator and create a gameplan. My thought was, facebook might solve your issue, if you were asking your friends and family for recipe ideas. Farmville, maybe not so much. As to the gender specific replies on debating...I'm afraid to even comment. I did note one reply that suggested I should know what my wife was thinking? Don't I get a gender-proven pass on that...knowing what a woman is thinking? 
Also, how is it that this forum is so good at self incrimination? I spend all day "teaching" people how to fish so i don't have to do their jobs...I'll just say it bluntly, can't I come home just a few times and NOT have to teach, I mean as soon as I walk in the door? Can't i just eat and play with my kids for a few minutes without having to mentor, educate and get into a debate/discussion/argument that requires unique insight as to the female mind? Or am I the naive one here?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You could get that - if you were to take a stand. It seems to me that you have so far been unwilling to do so.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Gseries said:


> I'll just say it bluntly, can't I come home just a few times and NOT have to teach, I mean as soon as I walk in the door? Can't i just eat and play with my kids for a few minutes without having to mentor, educate and get into a debate/discussion/argument that requires unique insight as to the female mind?


It really doesn't look like it, at least not until you make some more progress here. There may be some gender based communication issues but from your descriptions it looks to me like your conflict stems from differing maturity levels and their level of expectations.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Gseries said:


> I got home at six, no dinner, kids all hit me up for being hungry, W on Facebook, house still trashed. I just quietly said I couldn't cook for everybody. The young ones and I had a small snack, I put them to bed and I went to my room.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you don't mind my asking, what did did the older kids and your wife do for dinner?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What does she do all day?


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Gseries said:


> I spend all day "teaching" people how to fish so i don't have to do their jobs...I'll just say it bluntly, can't I come home just a few times and NOT have to teach, I mean as soon as I walk in the door?


It IS your job, and your wife's job, to teach your children how to fish. How else are they to learn if not from you and your wife?

What you and your wife have taught your children is they don't have to lift a finger, ever. Now you need to help them unlearn that and learn better habits. You think if they never help out that they will know how to be good spouses when they marry? Not by a longshot. 

You made these children, now you and your wife need to teach them they can't rely on other people to do everything for them and accommodate them in every way.

If your wife is not helping you in this task, you need to get her on the same page as you.


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## Gseries (Jan 6, 2013)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> If you don't mind my asking, what did did the older kids and your wife do for dinner?


Ok I don't remember....some reheated leftovers, W started making pizza bagels. I recall the issue was they wanted pizza but W said she waited too long to make dough, so I suggested using bagels.

In other news we talked, and by talked I mean I listened and said nothing. I guess she needed time to collect her thoughts. Apparently the issue is every time i discipline the kids or try to work with them on chores I am highlightinf her shortfalls as a parent.
Sorry if this is TMI but that also led to an offer of makeup sex....which I was thinking really? We didn't fix anything. I was in a real jam....run and hide? (I decided they are two separate issues)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Gseries said:


> Ok I don't remember....some reheated leftovers, W started making pizza bagels. I recall the issue was they wanted pizza but W said she waited too long to make dough, so I suggested using bagels.
> 
> In other news we talked, and by talked I mean I listened and said nothing. I guess she needed time to collect her thoughts. Apparently the issue is every time i discipline the kids or try to work with them on chores I am highlightinf her shortfalls as a parent.
> Sorry if this is TMI but that also led to an offer of makeup sex....which I was thinking really? We didn't fix anything. I was in a real jam....run and hide? (I decided they are two separate issues)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Only your W can rectify this by working on her shortfalls. There are lots of tools out there to help her, including IC.

You cannot not teach your kids for fear that it's going to make your W feel inadequate.


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## Gseries (Jan 6, 2013)

IC=individual counseling?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Gseries said:


> IC=individual counseling?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Gseries said:


> Wait! I am agreeing...that's why I said "define win", she said win not me....u made a sweeping generalization about men
> I am in agreement if I walk away from an argument and nothing changes there is no winning.


Totally agree!

One thing you should consider is your wife refuses to engage in these discussions because her position is unreasonable. Your position is that you are taking the lead in doing your share around the home and building a responsible structure for your kids. She does not even want to cooperate and facilitate the hard work you've already done.

That is why she does not engage in these discussions with you. If you had a discussion about her wants, her response would sound like "take care of it yourself and leave me alone to do as I please". But she's smart enough to know that sounds horrible and is the exact opposite of what you want (reasonable help). So she just clams up and refuses to engage.

You have a better shot of driving change but forgoing the talk and imposing consequences (having her do her own stuff, not making her dinner, etc.). Control what you can control.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

alte Dame said:


> With all due respect, men have traditionally done the defining in our world. It's only recently in our history that it isn't always the man's viewpoint that is assumed to be the unmarked basis from which everyone and everything else deviates.
> 
> And fyi - I have worked in lexicography for years, so using dictionary definitions will only twist you up, not help you. They reflect usage; they don't create or describe absolute realities.


You're really reaching here.

In the context of this issue, when we are talking about right and wrong, there is no "alternate but equally valid approach" here. We are not discussing whether shirts should be folded vs hung, for instance. We are talking about her willingness to participate in the essential activities of running a household.

She's not following his lead, obviously (even though he's doing the hard work by developing and initiating a plan, then doing his share of it). Nor is she doing something else important. Nor is she suggesting a different way of achieving the same result. She wants to feel good and included without the effort, which is simply unreasonable (to both men and women).

The only way your implication (he, the "male definer", is setting an unreasonable standard) holds water is if you believe that 1) it's equally acceptable for her to tune out and let the house be a sty without consequences and/or 2) it's okay to expect him to do the lion's share of the work while she kicks back.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Gseries said:


> In other news we talked, and by talked I mean I listened and said nothing. I guess she needed time to collect her thoughts. * Apparently the issue is every time i discipline the kids or try to work with them on chores I am highlightinf her shortfalls as a parent.*


You wouldn't be highlighting that if teaching the kids about chores and disciplining them were a team effort for you and your wife.

Can you somehow tell her this isn't about _highlighting_ shortfalls but about teaching your kids some life skills _together _and about making your house run more smoothly so everyone, including your wife, is part of a _team _with the same goal? 

Can you ask her to work _with _you to develop a plan that you can implement _together_?


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Gseries said:


> Ok I don't remember....some reheated leftovers, W started making pizza bagels. I recall the issue was they wanted pizza but W said she waited too long to make dough, so I suggested using bagels.
> 
> In other news we talked, and by talked I mean I listened and said nothing. I guess she needed time to collect her thoughts. Apparently the issue is every time i discipline the kids or try to work with them on chores I am highlightinf her shortfalls as a parent.
> Sorry if this is TMI but that also led to an offer of makeup sex....which I was thinking really? We didn't fix anything. I was in a real jam....run and hide? (I decided they are two separate issues)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Work on a plan where your intentions are the highlight and not the action steps. Where she sees you and her and your children all being accountable for a good thing. Where she understands it's for the health of the marriage and of your children. Where she understands being held accountable isn't purely to judge but is to make things more pleasant.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

alte Dame said:


> Experts claim that female methods for arguing and problem solving are just as systematic as male methods. They just reflect a different approach and understanding of the world around us.


I do not dispute the systematic nature of her approach. She's managed to justify her lack of effort to the household duties for some time now apparently. The systematic nature is apparent.

I also do not dispute her different understanding of the world. In fact, I think this is the issue here. The problem is that different does not mean equally valid. It seems like she wants him to do the bulk of the work while being esteemed as a full partner - to "have her cake and eat it too", so to speak.

The wife's attitude screams selfishness to me. She seems like the women who say "I want only a little sex, but I should not get less of what I want because I don't meet his sexual needs" except it's applied to the housework. I wager if he mirrored her lack of effort in something she prioritized she would be angry.

To the OP: focusing on behavior instead of underlying attitude seems to have failed. I recommend having a conversation where you lay out your vision for this issue and your marriage:

1) A well-functioning household involves (among other things) maintaining an environment conducive to your children's development.
2) Achieving the above is a big undertaking requiring putting effort into keeping a reasonably clean home, providing good nutrition, maintaining a healthy schedule for them, etc.
3) As full partners in the household, your wants and needs matter as much as hers. Also, she needs to be willing to work just as hard as you to meet your family's goals.

Either she will agree or she won't. You might think she would agree that keeping a clean home or (especially) working as hard as you do would be no-brainers, but you'd be surprised.


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## Gseries (Jan 6, 2013)

This occurred several years ago when I committed to finish a career active duty. I knew the road ahead and discussed what she would need to commit to. But its like u say, having her cake and eating it too. I made the commitment she clearly had no intention of following through. We talked a lot this weekend, so there is an upside. But, I cleaned a lot too....sorry my reference is to the vision listed in previous post.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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