# One man's Opinion on Trust issues.



## twotimeloser (Feb 13, 2011)

Trust comes up a lot in these forums but I am here to tell you that trust is not coming any time soon. You will get some back, not all of it, but not today. Think of it like your retirement fund, always building it, hoping it is enough in your later years.

When you started a relationship, you built trust up over a long time. There was a constant flow of deposits in the “trust bank” and until now, never any real withdraws. The problem is that now, the bank has been robbed and the credit cards stolen, so your bank isn’t empty, it is overdrawn. 

There is going to have to be substantial deposits just to get you to a zero balance. Even as more deposits are put in and your balance rises, it will still be only a shadow of your former level. You are going to be stressing about it all the time, as if the rent has come due and you have $30 in the account. 

You may have overcome a $1000 deficit and even added $30 but it isn’t enough. The only thing you can do is write an IOU and this IOU is called acceptance. Does it replace trust? No. But it fills the gaps until trust levels return to normal. 

The fact is that you will most likely never get that feeling back. You know something now that you didn’t before. You know that this person has the ability to drain your account at any time and you are cautious. People who have been robbed before lock their doors because they know what is out there, and your lack of trust is compounded by the knowledge that you live with a person capable of robbing your bank.

How does that fit in with forgiveness? It doesn’t. Forgiveness has nothing to do with trust. Forgiveness is given, Trust is earned. It is night and day. We are talking about the difference between a Christmas gift and a paycheck here. One has Zero to do with the other. Trust makes it easier to forgive, but it is not required to forgive. You might expect that your forgiving of the cheater will lead to trust one day, but not today. When you forgive someone you are saying “you do not deserve this forgiveness but I am giving it to you anyways.” It is divine to forgive. Forgiveness is grace. Trust is not even close to that. 

Trust after an affair is overrated in my opinion. 10 Years from D-Day, your marriage might be saved and your spouse says “Im going out with the friends for drinks, be back around 2am, do you trust me?” Now how many of you just freaked out? Of course you don’t trust them; you know that even though they have been good, they are CAPABLE of an affair. You let them go out based on acceptance, not trust. 

You can live a good marriage without complete trust like you used to have. My point is not to say “you will never trust again” my point is that it will never feel like it did before you realized who you married. I have about 50% trust in my wife. I don’t think she will relapse, but you never really know. I suspect at its highest point I will achieve 75% trust back, the rest will be acceptance on my part and continued forgiveness. I don’t hate my wife, I love her. She loves me as well, but the trust will never be the same. The day I realized that, I found peace in accepting the new level of trust I could live with.


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## princessaqua (Jan 11, 2011)

'Forgiveness has nothing to do with trust. Forgiveness is given, Trust is earned'.
so well said...

I'm now at 1 year n few days after DDay, every time he goes for biking, I still can't help wondering, does he really 'only' ride his bike? won't he stop somewhere to make a phone call to her, or even meet her? When he checks his phone, is there a call from her? n so on...

this suspicious feeling is so tiring...but I just can't help it. 
He told me once: if u want to install something on my phone, to make sure about my whereabouts, go ahead...
but even that doesn't make me trust him 100% again

I think my rate of trust is around 30-40% right now. Don't know whether it is good or not.


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## kenmoore14217 (Apr 8, 2010)

Just as forgiveness never means forgotten.


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## HungUp (Feb 26, 2011)

See this word 'forgiveness' or to forgive. I'm struggling with this as I see that to forgive is like saying what they did was all ok. It say's that what they have done was wrong, but it's ok now they can put it to the back of their mind and carry on as if it never happened - probably to go on and cheat again!

I cannot ever see myself as being able to say that what my wife did was ok and therefore I cannot ever say that I will forgive her. But, I can see that someday I will hopefully be able to 'accept' what she has done and her reasons for doing so.

Have I picked things up wrong?


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## twotimeloser (Feb 13, 2011)

HungUp said:


> See this word 'forgiveness' or to forgive. I'm struggling with this as I see that to forgive is like saying what they did was all ok. It say's that what they have done was wrong, but it's ok now they can put it to the back of their mind and carry on as if it never happened - probably to go on and cheat again!
> 
> I cannot ever see myself as being able to say that what my wife did was ok and therefore I cannot ever say that I will forgive her. But, I can see that someday I will hopefully be able to 'accept' what she has done and her reasons for doing so.
> 
> Have I picked things up wrong?



Forgiveness is not saying " what you did was OK" - - That is justification.

Forgiveness is saying " You did something wrong, but I will not *make *you pay or suffer for what you have done."

Without forgiveness, your reactions are from a place of desperation, seeking justice or even revenge. 

This is going to be hard for many of you to hear, but when you forgive a person you are saying that you will imposed consequences for their actions. Pay attention to what i am saying here: there is a difference between NATURAL consequences and Punishment. 

Guilt, mistrust, losing ones privacy, even divorce are all NATURAL consequences of an affair. But when you demoralize them, Berate them or use children against them... that is PUNISHMENT. A person who forgives, does not punish. period. There are many ways we punish people, not just the few i have listed here. Once they ask for forgiveness, you need to realize what it really is you are giving. You can no longer seek justice, you must give mercy. That is the way forgiveness happens. period.


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## castingabout (Mar 22, 2011)

You've got a really good take on this. I've re-read your post several times to understand. 
Can forgiveness be given only after your hurt is under control, or at a manageable level? Does the forgiven event stay put away, or does it come back up in converstaion? I know it will never go away, but are you still allowed to express your pain and anger after forgiveness, or is that a part of forgiving?


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

After reading this, I realize divorce was def the best option in my case. It sucks but it's true. 

I can't explain the feeling of knowing you've been cheated on. It's like your body has been burned and there isn't an ointment or a blanket to cover you up so you're running around like a burn/trauma victim and there is nobody on the road to help you. You're just standing out there with all your fresh wounds and they aren't healing.

The innocence that you had before an affair/cheating are gone forever. The dynamic is now changed never to return fully to what it was. The bond between two people is...marred. Like it got plucked, teared open, peeled back. It's never full again.

While I am very sad about my divorce, reading this just made it all come home for me -- I don't want to be with someone I can't trust 100% and vice versa. I will always question, will always have triggers, will always feel that "burn" I did from the moment he told me and my feelings for him have not been the same since that day. The cheating was even worse than when I found out he was online looking for sex (for that I forgave him since I believed he never met anyone). Now, I'm not so sure. 

Great post.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

Spot on. Very sad. Never again will you truly be capable of giving the whole you to anyone else after your soul has been raped. Innocence lost, it's like part of this process has been mourning what is now dead inside of yourself.


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## Bigwayneo (Jan 22, 2011)

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> Spot on. Very sad. Never again will you truly be capable of giving the whole you to anyone else after your soul has been raped. Innocence lost, it's like part of this process has been mourning what is now dead inside of yourself.


Yep, I told me wife that even if we separated/divorced that I would never be the same again, or be able to trust totally again. Which is sad, because you should be able to. regardless on how bad the relationship gets.


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## i_feel_broken (Jul 5, 2010)

i agree - I don't think I will be able to trust anyone like i did. Not sure if that is a good or a bad thing?? It is tiring suspecting all the time.

I still disagree as i did with AC and a few others a while back about forgiveness. For me - it is not a choice I can make, it is based on feelings. If I don't feel I can forgive my wife, if i don't feel she deserves to be forgiven then I can not truly forgive. I can't wake up one day and decide okay I forgive her now and won't punish her. I can try to do it but until I truly feel like I can forgive her, until she has made me feel like forgiving her then subconsciously at least i wont have.


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## LonelyNLost (Dec 11, 2010)

Very good post. I agree with all of it. However, the DS might see this as unfair. My H will often say to me, trust can never be the same, and I say no, but it's up to me to decide what I can live with. He seems to feel that he should be trusted fully. And then engages in behaviors that are not transparent. I do NOT think he's cheating, but I also don't think he's helping me with my insecurity. 

But on the other hand, if we were to divorce and I marry someone else, I don't think I'd trust them fully either. Anyone else feel that way? I just feel like I got a taste of what it means to be "human".


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

LonelyNLost said:


> But on the other hand, if we were to divorce and I marry someone else, I don't think I'd trust them fully either. Anyone else feel that way? I just feel like I got a taste of what it means to be "human".


I'm not sure about this for me but I hope it isn't the case. 

This was the first time I'd been cheated on (that I know of) and it has unveiled my eyes in a way but I pray I don't have trust issues w/ potential future partners.

Can someone please answer that... *after you were cheated on by someone and got into a new relationship--did you have trust issues or do they go away?*

I wish sometimes my husband never told me he cheated...that we just got a divorce and that was it. Buat the same time, I am happy for it. Because I learned the truth.


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## twotimeloser (Feb 13, 2011)

castingabout said:


> Can forgiveness be given only after your hurt is under control, or at a manageable level?
> 
> Does the forgiven event stay put away, or does it come back up in converstaion?
> 
> I know it will never go away, but are you still allowed to express your pain and anger after forgiveness, or is that a part of forgiving?


These are Excellent questions with very good answers.

Forgiveness can be given at any time, But unless you are in a strong mental state, you will not be truly aware of what you are giving. You must understand the magnitude of forgiveness. There is a reason why the cheater waits to ask for it, or asks many times (if they want it that is). The reason is because they know that they do not deserve it. They are asking for your mercy. So you can give it to them, but you must realize what you are doing. It is a major event in your life, like buying a house... You wouldn't sign the dotted line without knowing what you are getting into would you? Forgiveness can be given at any time, just know that it is not something you can take back.


Does the forgiven thing ever come back up? No. You are saying that you forgive an action, not a moral position. Realize what you are forgiving, and what you are NOT forgiving. What you are forgiving must be left alone. You cant pick at a scab and expect it to not bleed. - Now you will have to address the behavior that led to the action you are forgiving. Poor judgment, lack of communication, all these things that resulted in the affair are issues that need to be dealt with. When talking to the cheater, you must use words that do not punish them for the act. "your indiscretion" or something like that. If you say " you are a cheater" you are punishing. Address the behavior, not the act. You tell a child that they did something bad, you dont tell that child that they ARE bad.

Expressing pain and anger. Can you do that once you have forgiven? - Sure. Just not to them. Remember, once you forgive, you are working on repairing the relationship - why sabotage it with these angry expressions. Come tot he boards and vent, talk to your priest or pastor, friends maybe. But to forgive is to make them not pay. And if you say " I am angry at you for betraying us" - well that is punishment.

This is why i want to remind people of what forgiveness means. This is why, just like buying that house, you must know what you are signing up for. If you dont know, you are likely to have your relationship foreclosed upon.


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## twotimeloser (Feb 13, 2011)

i_feel_broken said:


> i agree - I don't think I will be able to trust anyone like i did. Not sure if that is a good or a bad thing?? It is tiring suspecting all the time.
> 
> I still disagree as i did with AC and a few others a while back about forgiveness. For me - it is not a choice I can make, it is based on feelings. If I don't feel I can forgive my wife, if i don't feel she deserves to be forgiven then I can not truly forgive. I can't wake up one day and decide okay I forgive her now and won't punish her. I can try to do it but until I truly feel like I can forgive her, until she has made me feel like forgiving her then subconsciously at least i wont have.


If you liked the 5 love languages by Gary Chapman, then you need to pick up the 5 languages of apology. You are what is known as a "restituion" person whenit comes to apology. If your wife knew that, she make better progress with you. 

I am a restitution person as well. For me to forgive, Restitution had to be made, and I felt it was.


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## twotimeloser (Feb 13, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> Can someone please answer that... *after you were cheated on by someone and got into a new relationship--did you have trust issues or do they go away?*


THis is a common trust issue.

This also an illusion.

Let me put it this way: Right now you think you have a hole in your gas tank. So you sniff around the car, looking for gas drops on the ground. You look at the gauge every few minutes and you SWEAR you saw it drop!! Do you know why? because we always find what we are looking for.

THat is the illusion. 

In your new relationship, there is no hole. Your tank is fine, the ground is clean and free of gas. 

Your trust issues will go away, as long as you realize that they are an illusion. 

What many people end up doing is making the new partner pay, for the last one's mistakes. And that, my dear friend, is how you end up a twotimeloser. That, I am somewhat of an authority on.

I put it out there, so be nice to me


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## jessi (Feb 11, 2009)

This is an interesting question and difficult to answer as I think we are all different with different core values......
For me dealing with my husband's affair, I found I had a level of forgiveness right off the bat, knowing I was capable of it. 
I think for me the logic side of my brain just understands how the act itself came to be, the condition of the marriage......not that I would ever think that cheating while you are married is ever okay. This accountability led me to be able to consider the forgiveness of the act, also I think I had to in order for me to move forward with the recovery process.........it's a challenge every day.............
As far as the trust issues that is a different story for me, I was one of those women who thought they knew how her husband would act in any given situation, I guess I really missed the mark on this one.
What I have learned is that my husband is capable of what I thought he couldn't do, and that he can make decisions that don't have my best interests at heart and that behavior in my book does not deserve trusting any longer......I think for the rest of my days with him that doubt will be there, my husband cheated after 27 years together. We have decided that this is an area that we will just have to rebuild just like in the beginning, day by day, he will have to prove to me with his actions not just words that he means what he says and promises to me now.....
When the trust between partners is blown out of the water, I think it takes a long time if ever to feel the same again, the illusion of that person is gone and what you believed them to be, that might be the more difficult one for me.......... its very difficult to take those steps backwards...........


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## couple (Nov 6, 2010)

It's not so simple as you trust fully and then you are cheated on and you lose the trust (referencing your example of balance of trust depleted like a bank balance). I agree with others who make the point that your other life experiences affect your ability to trust. A marriage does not exist in a vacuum. for example:

have you been cheated on by a previous partner? Did you parents have cheating problems? Have you witnessed easy cheating in people that you know? Have you been the 'other man' or 'other woman'? Are you naturally trusting or do you constantly watch your back in all situations (work for example)? Have you had trust broken before (even if not in a cheating situation)?

All of these things and many others affect your ability to trust.

The (perhaps sad) reality is that everybody or just about everybody is CAPABLE of cheating. To think that your partner is immune to temptation and succumbing to temptation is frankly naive. Not everyone cheats but I strongly believe that the right combination of factors occurring at the same time could drive just about anyone to cheat.

Often in cheating the fatal flaw is weakness not evil intent. 'Nice' people are often weak and when they cheat it's often because they are weak. This is not an excuse but with the same temptation and desire, different outcomes are often dictated by level of strength vs. weakness.

Many parents also sadly believe that their innocent little children would never, ever do drugs. Big mistake that many have learned a lesson from. Nice kids do drugs, nice spouses cheat. Fact of life.


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## DanF (Sep 27, 2010)

I have forgiven my wife for her affair and I am sure that she has forgiven me for mine.
Do I trust her like I used to?
Nope. I don't know if I ever will. We have made incredible progress in getting our relationship back on track. We are in love like never before.
I still wonder sometimes if she may be looking around for some greener grass...
I am sure that she wonders about me sometimes as well.


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## Chrono (Mar 23, 2011)

Thank you OP for this thread. I really feel the same way that you do. I don't think I will ever be able to fully trust my wife again. I love her dearly and feel as if I could not live without her. However I'm completely crushed by her affair that I'm so paranoid that it could happen again. It's only been 5 days since I learned the truth.


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## Chrono (Mar 23, 2011)

RWB said:


> Damn 2time you make it complicated, (LOL)
> 
> My motto, after finding out my wife of 30+ years was a serial cheater...
> 
> "Trust No One!"


I've always believed in this motto but have the exception of my wife and family, I'm starting to doubt those exceptions.


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## twotimeloser (Feb 13, 2011)

couple said:


> I agree with others who make the point that your other life experiences affect your ability to trust. A marriage does not exist in a vacuum. for example:
> 
> have you been cheated on by a previous partner? Did you parents have cheating problems? Have you witnessed easy cheating in people that you know? Have you been the 'other man' or 'other woman'? Are you naturally trusting or do you constantly watch your back in all situations (work for example)? Have you had trust broken before (even if not in a cheating situation)?
> 
> All of these things and many others affect your ability to trust.


This goes to what Jessi up there says - It depends on your core values.

In another post, I mentioned how some people are environmental people and some are "personal responsibility people. These are core values. What you say here is a great example of environmental values. 

Environmental Values are values that use environment to explain or excuse human behavior. There is an inherent flaw in this set of values however. Although it serves the holder of such values by allowing them to cast blame and responsibility away from themselves, it also hinders the holder by taking away credit and acknowledgment where it is deserved. 

For Example: Johnny get a "D" in math. Environmental values will tell you that Johnny had a poor socio-economical living situation, that Johnny's schools was substandard and that Johnny was exposed to trauma that effected his ability to learn. On the Flip side... Johnny gets an "A" in Math: Johnny has a great home life or Johnny has the best teachers or Johnny lives in the right area. 

Poor Johnny never gets credit for his hard work, and Johnny is never responsible for his poor performance. 

Personal Responsibility folks are responsible for their misdeeds and there victories in life. They recognize that people succeed in adverse conditions and fail even though they had all the resources needed for success. 

Frankly, I am a Personal responsibility type. Your quote suggests you are Environmental... So again i agree with Jessi. It depends on your core values, and that is why we do not see eye to eye here. IMO.




couple said:


> The (perhaps sad) reality is that everybody or just about everybody is CAPABLE of cheating. To think that your partner is immune to temptation and succumbing to temptation is frankly naive. Not everyone cheats but I strongly believe that the right combination of factors occurring at the same time could drive just about anyone to cheat.


This is important here. If someone is an environmental person, They actually believe this -"I strongly believe that the right combination of factors occurring at the same time could drive just about anyone to cheat. " That is a dangerous thing to think because it is riding the line of justification. Justification is NOT forgiveness. The fact is that not everyone is Capable of cheating. As a matter of fact, at least 33% of men and 35% of women do not posses the Capacity to cheat *see 2008 askmen.com article* I do not have that ability, in part because I do not understand how that ability exists, but mainly because i just cant. I would have gone after a 3some with college girls if i could, but i just dont have that capacity. I bet a LOT of people here cant do that either. 

Just ask around You will find a few, i am sure.



couple said:


> Often in cheating the fatal flaw is weakness not evil intent. 'Nice' people are often weak and when they cheat it's often because they are weak. This is not an excuse but with the same temptation and desire, different outcomes are often dictated by level of strength vs. weakness.


I wouldn't be so bold as to narrow cheating down to one thing like weakness. But you make a good point worth considering. It is certainly not an excuse or reason to cheat.



couple said:


> Nice kids do drugs, nice spouses cheat. Fact of life.


Once they are drug addicts and cheaters, dont we tend to call them something else? I do not recall using "nice" after the fact.

I really hate that this response sounds like a personal attack on the poster. It is not meant to be that way at all. Couple seems to be a deep thinker and that is really awesome. More attention though, needs to be paid to our perspectives. Are we environmental people or are we Personal responsibility types?

Some of you will find it easier to forgive because you have that tool known as justification. And those are the Environmentalists in the crowd. But i think we all know that justification is just a way to rationalize an affair, which in no way is responsible.


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## twotimeloser (Feb 13, 2011)

princessaqua said:


> I think my rate of trust is around 30-40% right now. Don't know whether it is good or not.


That is actually pretty good for a year. Have you thought about what your level of acceptance is?


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## couple (Nov 6, 2010)

No problem two-time, I enjoy a good debate...I didn't take it as a personal attack. It's just a challenge to my views.

Your explanation of 'personal responsibility' vs 'environmental types' smells too much of the silly american culture wars (liberal vs. conservative speak). So i'm a little suspicious from the start.

I do think that people are trusting or not based on their experiences. this just makes sense to me. In fact, you, yourself say that you are not trusting of your wife because of your experience with her. All I said was that people don't live in a vacuum and experiences with others also count. But we are both just talking about experiences affecting behavior and perceptions. You must be an 'environmentalist' too. So I don't see a huge philosophical disconnect. 

I think it's a fairy tale view when we fail to recognize that people often behave badly when they have the opportunity. Just log on here and you are bombarded by couples who had fairy tale $40k+ weddings and who thought they were both absolutely perfect. Then they go off to live happily ever after and one or both cheats and the perfect husband and perfect wife fantasy comes crashing down.

Maybe it's more accurate to categorize people as either realists or fantasy-ists. I'm a realist. People have lust and sometimes when the conditions are right they will yield to the temptation. This board is littered with such cases....and for every 1 up here at the surface, there are 3 more hidden below. I also believe in personal responsibility. Anyone who messes around is risking some big things...some will get away with it and others won't. What I don't believe in is morality on a pedestal. If you take that risk and get caught out, then you pay in some way. That's just part of the reality.


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## Bigwayneo (Jan 22, 2011)

Couple, though I do disagree with twotime on some things (and agree on even more) one thing I do agree 150% with him is that some people can, and some people can not cheat. I know for a fact I can not cheat. One example, with in a week after D-day I got called from a friend (a girl) and was invited to a private party with her and 5 other friends to get drunk and laid. I was horny, I was tempted, BUT even though I was living with my parents, down, depressed, and needed a ego trip I just could not do it. I could be drunk, high on eX, naked, surrounded by naked porn stars, and know for a fact my wife is out with another guy the the same time, AND still NOT cheat. 

It's like twotime said, some of us just don't "get it", or don't get "how". I understand why"s" (I just came to that final thought myself, even though it hurt thinking about it, I had to) but how"s" elude me. An example, like the one above, Why could I?, I am drunk, being cheated on and around by hot naked hotties. How? I can't....How?....like a computer, "does not compute".


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## couple (Nov 6, 2010)

Bigwayneo,

i don't fully understand the distinction you are making with the 'how'. But anyway, I think it's very very rare that someone could go through their entire life and at no point in time be even capable of cheating on a partner. I never said that every single person was capable of cheating every single point in their life. And by 'cheating' i suppose we mean an EA, PA (holding hands, a kiss and everything beyond). Over their lives, people go through more and less times of opportunity, urges to cheat, reasons to cheat, and a million other factors that affect the brain.

So you could very well discard someone for cheating and embark on an endless and fruitless search for someone who will never be capable of cheating at any point in their lives.

I think that people who truly believe that their partners will in no way ever be capable of cheating in their whole lives are living in a fantasy world and they are setting themselves up for major hurt and disappointment. there is usually hurt and disappointment anyway but people who are realists can deal with it better.


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## Lazarus (Jan 17, 2011)

twotimeloser said:


> .
> 
> The fact is that you will most likely never get that feeling back. You know something now that you didn’t before. You know that this person has the ability to drain your account at any time and you are cautious. People who have been robbed before lock their doors because they know what is out there, and your lack of trust is compounded by the knowledge that you live with a person capable of robbing your bank..
> 
> ...


With all that has been wriiten in your excellent post and the loss of a marriage pre DDay where trust was bestowed upon a DS that has proven unworthy of such trust would you say it is really worth it all to try again, particularly since a LS may always experience the continuing nagging doubt that they maybe at it again? Would it have been better for the LS to have started all over again with someone else to get back that feeling of complete trust?

Do DS feel they can't live with a LS because of their utter bare faced lies and for them it is easier to start all over again with someone else as opposed to a LS to get back that feeling of trust by one's spouse and partner? 

Trust is the foundation of a healthy relationship so how can a LS be completely, truly happy again without all the nagging doubts and can a DS ever feel truly happy knowing what terrible havoc and pain they've caused to a marriage?

When someone whom you trusts betrays with such treachery do they not become utterly worthless as a person?


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## HungUp (Feb 26, 2011)

Lazarus said:


> When someone whom you trusts betrays with such treachery do they not become utterly worthless as a person?


Now that has crossed my mind so many times, but no, I don't agree with that statement anymore. I acknowledge it may fit with what you wrote above it, but overall a cheater can still be worthy of respect providing there has been certain circumstances (beatings, fear etc.). In our own minds they may be worthless, but it isn't fair to say they are worthless as a person.

I would possible adjust it to say they are worthless as 'our' spouse.

Just my thoughts of course.


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## twotimeloser (Feb 13, 2011)

Lazarus said:


> Would it have been better for the LS to have started all over again with someone else to get back that feeling of complete trust?


That is the question that everyone wants answered, isn't it?

My response isn't for everyone, but it is my opinion in general.

I think it depends on how much you have invested in the relationship. Kids, finances and time invested all play a role in that question. If you have no kids and have been married 2-3 years, then by all means, get out and start anew. That might not be so easy for the guy who has 3 kids, depends on 2 incomes and has been married 15-20 years.

The question you ask is not black and white. You are assuming you will have NO trust. That is an unreasonable expectation. I believe that people can get up to 80% trust back in the right scenario (where both are working on it). SO the question is really.. are you willing to give up what you have now, for 100% trust, VS. up to 80% in the future?

And how do you value trust? Parenting, poor financial responsibility, neglect and abuse even can all be in a marriage that HAS trust, but can end it as quickly as "trust" itself. I value an understanding of my expectations more than I value trust. If i know that i have an understanding of these things then I am willing to accept 70-80% trust, to achieve happiness. 

Remember: Trust is in the mind of the betrayed. Trust is not something that "is" or "isn't", it is a state of mind. A cheater could be loyal for the rest of their lives, being the best spouse ever, meeting your needs and making up for it every day of their lives... But they will not recover 100% of that trust. For the cheater, that is as tough to accept as the betrayed. Both must realize that 80% could be enough, for it to really work out. 

Could you start over again? Sure. But you have to determine if it is really worth it.



Lazarus said:


> When someone whom you trusts betrays with such treachery do they not become utterly worthless as a person?


Interesting question, here is your answer: NO. That is just where they start out. 

You pee'd your pants as a child, does that make you a bed wetter today? Everyone has a first day on the job, but they are not treated like a newbie forever. The plain truth here is that you need to look at this differently than you have been. Worthless is a starting point and if you can not see beyond that, well then that is a perception problem.


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## mrsblu (Mar 26, 2011)

twotimeloser said:


> These are Excellent questions with very good answers.
> 
> Forgiveness can be given at any time, But unless you are in a strong mental state, you will not be truly aware of what you are giving. You must understand the magnitude of forgiveness. There is a reason why the cheater waits to ask for it, or asks many times (if they want it that is). The reason is because they know that they do not deserve it. They are asking for your mercy. So you can give it to them, but you must realize what you are doing. It is a major event in your life, like buying a house... You wouldn't sign the dotted line without knowing what you are getting into would you? Forgiveness can be given at any time, just know that it is not something you can take back.
> 
> ...


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

It makes no rational sense nor is it a wise emotion to trust any person 100% no matter who they are. 99% ok but there's always something. I mean I wouldn't trust my own mother with some things. A wife? Well what is it Ani DeFranco says? "Anything's a weapon if you hold it right."


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## Bigwayneo (Jan 22, 2011)

couple said:


> Bigwayneo,
> 
> i don't fully understand the distinction you are making with the 'how'. But anyway, I think it's very very rare that someone could go through their entire life and at no point in time be even capable of cheating on a partner. I never said that every single person was capable of cheating every single point in their life. And by 'cheating' i suppose we mean an EA, PA (holding hands, a kiss and everything beyond). Over their lives, people go through more and less times of opportunity, urges to cheat, reasons to cheat, and a million other factors that affect the brain.
> 
> ...


I guess I just disagree with your thoughts in the first paragraph which in turn, I disagree with the second. We will have to agree to disagree on those points.

but to note- I am 185+++% confidence I would, in no way (unless date raped) cheat on my wife, either EA or PA. One time, it did get close to an EA, and my wife (GF at the time) was being withholding, and *****y ALL the time, so I had the "why", but when it came to keep going with the EA (the girls said "I really like you" and then I  found out she was falling for me) the "how" in me said "he moron, your would hurt your wife (gf) stop this ****". so you know what I did?....I explained it had to stop, and that we could still talk as long as she understood it could never go any farther then friends. 

As far as your last paragraph, you are kind of right on, though I think its sad, sad, sad. When I met my wife, I expected 100% loyalty, and honesty. I don't think it was foolish, or naive, and to me that shows full on love and trust. But, its gone now, I explained to her that trust for anybody like that again is dead in me thanks to her, and him. The OP was my best friend for 7+ years so not only did I loose that in my love life with my wife. I lost that feeling with my "bro", my co-captain (or EX).


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## Twinky (Mar 14, 2011)

Really excellent thoughts on forgiveness, trust and acceptance. I still struggle with all three. It's been 6 years since my D-Day and 3 years since the behaviors stopped (although with some of it you never really know for sure.) 

I doubt I will ever get over it or be able to say "It's okay, I understand, we're all human" as I think my husband would like. What I can do is stop bringing it up and that has been a challenge. You are so right about punishing. That's how it feels to my husband. 

To me, however, bringing it up is a way of explaining why I sometimes act the way I do. For example, he might tell me he's going to lunch with a former co worker he hasn't seen for 5 years and she happens to be very attractive, his "type" and recently divorced. He feels he is being transparent by telling me ahead of time, not being secretive. I try to be OK with it, but the day of the lunch he is still not in his office at 2:30, I can't reach him by cell, and I freak out. He seems bewildered and more than a little angry that I am over reacting, he's done nothing, he claims. Says I am accusing him things he didn't do. So I feel obliged to bring up his past behavior and say its not that I think he is romancing this woman, it's the old pattern rearing its head of surrounding himself with women he can socialize with, text, email, phone, facebook...because that's how he makes himself feel good, even if he never crosses any lines. My argument is that he is putting himself in a temptation loaded environment, like an alcoholic who quits drinking but stills hangs out in the bar.
Don't I have to bring up the past to explain my feelings?

My husband, BTW, thanked me for telling him how I feel, but made no offer to stop "being friends" with other women.

I believe acceptance and weighing what you have to lose are critical. Are you better off with him or without him? I have a 20 year marriage and children, and I would rather be with him knowing what he is and accepting than be without him. However, if he ever cheats again I am gone.


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## Bigwayneo (Jan 22, 2011)

Twinky said:


> Really excellent thoughts on forgiveness, trust and acceptance. I still struggle with all three. It's been 6 years since my D-Day and 3 years since the behaviors stopped (although with some of it you never really know for sure.)
> 
> I doubt I will ever get over it or be able to say "It's okay, I understand, we're all human" as I think my husband would like. What I can do is stop bringing it up and that has been a challenge. You are so right about punishing. That's how it feels to my husband.
> 
> ...


Wow 6 years and still going? GJ. It's only been 3 months since my D-day. We have made major steps up (mostly her, her therapists, and I all saying it was 150% her, even the issues before hand) but 6 years seems so far away. But I am having issues with that as well. My wife has always been one to change up her "style" and look every so often, but right now I question it and get depressed, or angry when she does. Just today in fact, she bought some new ear rings and hair color. She asked whats wrong I explained, and she said she understands, and the rest of the night so far trying to reassure me its nothing to be worried about....


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## Mrs.G (Nov 20, 2010)

TwoTime, your post was well written and eloquent. I agree wholeheartedly.
I would also like to add that many spouses do not trust even before they marry, because of being scarred from the past. I did not trust Mr.G until after I married, because I grew up seeing the men in my family proudly cheat. I firmly believed that ALL men are unfaithful. My husband hated my mistrust, but he understood it and patiently waited until I could.
I trust my hubby 90%. I could never have complete faith in any man, because of seeing infidelity and being lied to about important things from fools I dated before. I admit that I am haunted by all the deception in my parent's marriage; my beloved father carried on an affair for years. Granted, my mother is a screaming harridan who doesn't like sex, but she would not sleep with another man. 
I could probably get past a one time fling, but not a years long affair.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bigwayneo (Jan 22, 2011)

Mrs.G said:


> TwoTime, your post was well written and eloquent. I agree wholeheartedly.
> I would also like to add that many spouses do not trust even before they marry, because of being scarred from the past. I did not trust Mr.G until after I married, because I grew up seeing the men in my family proudly cheat. I firmly believed that ALL men are unfaithful. My husband hated my mistrust, but he understood it and patiently waited until I could.
> I trust my hubby 90%. I could never have complete faith in any man, because of seeing infidelity and being lied to about important things from fools I dated before. I admit that I am haunted by all the deception in my parent's marriage; my beloved father carried on an affair for years. Granted, my mother is a screaming harridan who doesn't like sex, but she would not sleep with another man.
> I could probably get past a one time fling, but not a years long affair.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's great you never let your environment effect you! I am the same way and wish more people could be like that. 

Sadly, my DW is on the other spectrum. Dad cheated on all 3 wifes (and all his GF's for that matter), mom either cheated, or on the rare occasion she did not, just up and left the guy without working on the issues. Both parents were dead beats (some very small examples, Mother would make sure there was food for the dogs/cats but not her or her brother, she had to get a job at 15 to help get food when her mother left for the weekend. Dad never paid child support, and to save money from child support emancipated her with out telling her.). I could right a HUGE report on her child hood issues but, that would be silly.

I know these are just excuses (and I making dam well sure she understands this), and in the end, its all down to "how" or choice. But it does not help the subconscious when that is all one sees, and piled that with her other issues, etc, etc. Hopefully her therapists, doctor, depression drugs and our MC will find out the "how" and get her working threw this. I know I was far from a GREAT husband, but I know I was far from bad either.


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## HungUp (Feb 26, 2011)

Mrs.G said:


> TwoTime, your post was well written and eloquent. I agree wholeheartedly.
> I would also like to add that many spouses do not trust even before they marry, because of being scarred from the past. I did not trust Mr.G until after I married, because I grew up seeing the men in my family proudly cheat. I firmly believed that ALL men are unfaithful. My husband hated my mistrust, but he understood it and patiently waited until I could.
> I trust my hubby 90%. I could never have complete faith in any man, because of seeing infidelity and being lied to about important things from fools I dated before. I admit that I am haunted by all the deception in my parent's marriage; my beloved father carried on an affair for years. Granted, my mother is a screaming harridan who doesn't like sex, but she would not sleep with another man.
> I could probably get past a one time fling, but not a years long affair.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I agree about not trusting 100% even before discovering my wifes affair. 
I had no previous 'known' experience of being cheated on or cheating and nor had I known of it in my family (I think ALL of her family group are cheaters), but I could identify early on that with the right environment, right mindset and a keen cheat partner then 'anybody' could have a weak moment and give in to that temptation. I work away from home 50% of the year, my wife is a bubbly, flirty person by nature (I have to admit this was part of her attraction to me) so I always felt that our environment was slightly open to cheating. We discussed this and I thought we both ensured we limited our exposure to these situations - much like gets recommended in this forum for 'post affair' situations. Obviously it was a one way thought and it was still a huge shock to discover she actually had an affair.

In reference to the comment on thinking 'ALL men are unfaithful', I think this is still the common thought out there, certainly within the friends I have. By coming on this forum it is clear to see that is certainly not a true thought.


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## couple (Nov 6, 2010)

twotimeloser said:


> The question you ask is not black and white. You are assuming you will have NO trust. That is an unreasonable expectation. I believe that people can get up to 80% trust back in the right scenario (where both are working on it). SO the question is really.. are you willing to give up what you have now, for 100% trust, VS. up to 80% in the future?


You say that you should not assume NO trust after a partner cheats but why on earth would you assume that replacing that partner would mean 100% trust in the new one? ONE HUNDRED PERCENT! So you've been cheated on and hurt majorly by spouse #1. You trusted her 100% and you were let down like a ton of bricks falling. You then move on to relationship with #2 and you assume the trust would be 100%??? What if #2 told you 6 months into the relationship that she cheated on her ex-husband but of course 'would never do that with you'. What if she started to (innocently or not) showing common signs of cheating - distancing herself from you, change in personality, being away and not contactable at unusual times, etc? still 100%? 

So I think we see a fundamental difference in perspective relating to trusting 100%. Some later posts (e.g. Mrs G) explain the point very well. The problem is that society tells us that we need to (with absolutely no compromise or question) trust our partners 100% and nothing less, ever. We are taught that if we don't, our relationships are worthless. Goes hand in hand with the 'perfect' white wedding concept. Buying into this relationship fantasy sets us up for a big fall. Anyone who spends a bit of time reading on this site sees the dichotomy with pure expectations with a spouse high on a pedestal on one hand and horrific behavior on the other hand.

Our spouses are humans. Humans make mistakes, humans disappoint, and humans do cruel and uncaring things at times. This is in no way saying that you need to FORGIVE if a mistake is made or your partner disappoints you. That's a separate decision.

My advice to anyone getting married is to understand that your partner is human, your relationship is dynamic and will be in constant flux. Forget the $50k+ 'perfect' white wedding as this just symbolizes the fantasy of perfection. Statistics say that there is a significant chance that this perfect marriage will fail and you will just have a simple wedding #2 after you've learned your lesson.


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## twotimeloser (Feb 13, 2011)

couple said:


> You say that you should not assume NO trust after a partner cheats but why on earth would you assume that replacing that partner would mean 100% trust in the new one? ONE HUNDRED PERCENT!


Easy answer: Voodoo. and we always find what we look for.

First off, Voodoo. That chemical reaction in your brain that tells you a NEW partner is perfect, you know the one... It is the reason your first 2 years went fine, why you saw your partner as perfect. It is better known as the "honeymoon" phase, and it is powerful stuff. When it ends, you start to see them as normal people and not "super-human" but generally people see a new mate as infalable in the begining. That is what allowed you to put 100% trust in your first mate. 

Second, "We always find what we are looking for" Don't take this literally, it is a generalization. Buthere is the gist of what I am saying: I take you to the park and I say " You have 60 seconds to count all the dogs, when you are done counting tap me on the shoulder" - You count as many as you can then tap me on the shoulder. I then look at you an say "Ok, you counted all the dogs, how many people were wearing red shirts?" You will have no clue, because you found what you were looking for, but not what you were not looking for. We ALWAYS find what we are looking for. IF you are looking for the worst in your wife, youwill find it, and if you are looking for the best in your new mate.. guess what? You will find it.

None of this applies to the skeptic or pesimist. That is why nearly every post of mine begins with changing your mental state and gaining clarity in an OBJECTIVE manner. 





couple said:


> My advice to anyone getting married is to understand that your partner is human, your relationship is dynamic and will be in constant flux. Forget the $50k+ 'perfect' white wedding as this just symbolizes the fantasy of perfection. Statistics say that there is a significant chance that this perfect marriage will fail and you will just have a simple wedding #2 after you've learned your lesson.


I would have quoted the rest, but it all goes into the same answer here. 

Couple, you have to really get out of the dumps. Right now you spend half your life looking over your shoulder and you are missing all the good things in front of you. Is that a cliche? Sure it is, but it never rang more true. You cannot spend your time being unhappy and scarred to take a leap of faith while laughing at all the happy people and thinking they are idiots. Your advice to basically "trust nobody" is the advise of a perpetual skeptic and that attitude brings nothing positive into a relationship. Your emotions and your issues are just that.. YOURS. If you bring them into a new relationship you are sabotaging it from day 1. The new mate doesn't have these issues and has a reasonable expectation of trust from you. 

You Can not punish a new Mate for something your last one did, can you? Im going with "no" on this one.

I have never meant this more: "lighten up" and "Change your state" ... No matter what you think, it really is just that simple... to choose to change your mental perspective. It wont happen in a day, but as i said before: We Find What We Are Looking For.


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## twotimeloser (Feb 13, 2011)

HungUp said:


> In reference to the comment on thinking 'ALL men are unfaithful', I think this is still the common thought out there, certainly within the friends I have. By coming on this forum it is clear to see that is certainly not a true thought.


According to Census data by the US government, there are 143.4 million women and 138.1 million men in the United States.

According to the 2008 askmen.com research study, 67% of men cheat and 65% of women cheat.

In actual numbers... About a Million more women cheat a year in the united states, than men.

And being that i had two wives do that... I can safely say I have done my part to prove that. LOL


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## Bigwayneo (Jan 22, 2011)

twotimeloser said:


> Easy answer: Voodoo. and we always find what we look for.
> 
> First off, Voodoo. That chemical reaction in your brain that tells you a NEW partner is perfect, you know the one... It is the reason your first 2 years went fine, why you saw your partner as perfect. It is better known as the "honeymoon" phase, and it is powerful stuff. When it ends, you start to see them as normal people and not "super-human" but generally people see a new mate as infalable in the begining. That is what allowed you to put 100% trust in your first mate.
> 
> ...


:iagree:


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## HungUp (Feb 26, 2011)

twotimeloser said:


> According to Census data by the US government, there are 143.4 million women and 138.1 million men in the United States.
> 
> According to the 2008 askmen.com research study, 67% of men cheat and 65% of women cheat.
> 
> ...


While it doesn't make a difference to where I/we all are with our own situations, I find that very interesting to read as fact. It totally goes against what virtually everybody around me assumes as the men are always the 'bad boys'.
The ladies in my friend group would argue till they were blue in the face that men were the cheaters!

Sorry for the sidetrack from original thread...


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## twotimeloser (Feb 13, 2011)

HungUp said:


> While it doesn't make a difference to where I/we all are with our own situations, I find that very interesting to read as fact. It totally goes against what virtually everybody around me assumes as the men are always the 'bad boys'.
> The ladies in my friend group would argue till they were blue in the face that men were the cheaters!
> 
> Sorry for the sidetrack from original thread...


It actually makes more sense than you would think. Basic human communication research has proven that the core difference between the way men and women communicate is based on certain factors.

Men communicate for status reasons. This is why everyone thinks men are ego freaks, but status matters more to men and that is our purpose for communication most times. Women communicate based on forming and maintaining relationships and emotions. 

This is why Exposure is more effective with woman then men and why the threat of financial loss is more threatening to men than women. 

I always encourage people to study the human dynamic. It can be very enlightening and help you understand the "why" of your issues with other people. When i was studying Human Relations in college, i became hooked on knowing as much as i could and gained incredible perspective.


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## couple (Nov 6, 2010)

good post two-time. However, you misunderstand reality for negativity. I'm not negative or pessimistic. The difference in you and me is that I never put my wife on that pedestal, I was never looking for perfection, and I never felt a need to make myself believe that she was perfect. This was not related in any way to pessimism or a belief that it 'wouldn't last anyway'. I simply see her as a human rather than some fictional, virginal character built up in the mind as the epitome of perfection. I want to really know my wife deeply as a person. Putting her up on a pedestal and only seeing one dimension of her just isn't a relationship for me. Likewise, I don't want her to build me up in her mind as as some kind of fictional knight in shining armor. 

You very accurately describe the typical fantasy marriage but I don't get why you think it needs to be this way to be happy. I don't constantly look over my shoulder and as we both agreed earlier, trust is not black and white so to dismiss my state as 'not trusting' is a little unfair.

I know quite a few people who think like you do. I think the difficulty for them is that their lives are constant roller-coasters with extreme ups and downs. And by this I don't mean that they are always exciting in a good way. One day something is the best thing since sliced bread and the next day they absolutely hate it. They invest huge emotion in things only to swing violently in the other direction when it disappoints them.

I don't think this is a matter of right and wrong. People are just who they are, however, it seems rather painful to live like this.

So after all I think we finally got to the real issue. It has nothing to do with experience people vs. personal responsibility people (that never felt right to me). It's about an optimistic quest for perfection vs a grounding in realism.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Anecdotally 100% of the women I know cheated. For men it was zero.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## twotimeloser (Feb 13, 2011)

couple said:


> The difference in you and me is that I never put my wife on that pedestal


How did that work out for you?



couple said:


> I don't think this is a matter of right and wrong. People are just who they are, however, it seems rather painful to live like this.
> 
> So after all I think we finally got to the real issue. It has nothing to do with experience people vs. personal responsibility people (that never felt right to me). It's about an optimistic quest for perfection vs a grounding in realism.


I suppose we should just agree to disagree, finally. 

You view my opinion, and this is opinion... check the subject line... as a fantasy, and I see yours as cynical at best.

My personal experiences have led me to a place of relative happiness and a saved marriage - 10 years on "Fantasy Island" That is my grounding reality.


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## Bigwayneo (Jan 22, 2011)

twotimeloser said:


> How did that work out for you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cynical was the word I was thinking. If I were to divorce my wife and find another, I would make dam sure to have my old issues resolved to I can trust in the next marriage 100% again, or at least try.


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## rome2012 (Sep 10, 2010)

twotimeloser said:


> Trust comes up a lot in these forums but I am here to tell you that trust is not coming any time soon. You will get some back, not all of it, but not today. Think of it like your retirement fund, always building it, hoping it is enough in your later years.
> 
> When you started a relationship, you built trust up over a long time. There was a constant flow of deposits in the “trust bank” and until now, never any real withdraws. The problem is that now, the bank has been robbed and the credit cards stolen, so your bank isn’t empty, it is overdrawn.
> 
> ...


Well written !!!!!!


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## ladyybyrd (Jan 4, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> I'm not sure about this for me but I hope it isn't the case.
> 
> This was the first time I'd been cheated on (that I know of) and it has unveiled my eyes in a way but I pray I don't have trust issues w/ potential future partners.
> 
> ...



For me - My x cheated on me a a lot. I had no trust in men what so ever. When I met my husband - It took me a very long time to trust him fully. I am talking years. It can be done, it will just take a lot longer. I gave my X way to many chances. I will NOT ever let someone do that to me again. It is a deal breaker for me. For me there is absolutely no fixing it once they break the trust, it is it gone, and i will not live like that. I did tell my husband, before we got married, if he ever cheated and I found out about it, it is over and done with and I would be gone.

Trust in a very important element in a relationship. Loosing trust in someone will make you nuts. Always wondering what they are doing, if they are doing what they say they are doing.


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## twotimeloser (Feb 13, 2011)

ladyybyrd said:


> . When I met my husband - It took me a very long time to trust him fully. I am talking years. It can be done, it will just take a lot longer.
> 
> Always wondering what they are doing, if they are doing what they say they are doing.


It can be, but he did nothing to deserve to be untrusted.. In essence you punished him for something some other man did. That is why you MUST let go of the baggage. Otherwise you may as well go around slapping every man you pass by.


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## Corkey88 (Sep 16, 2010)

For me, there are three core values that must exist for a relationship to prosper - love, trust and respect. 

Love is a must - it has to be there for a relationship to last. Trust is very personal and can vary between individuals. Some can accept less that 100% others can't or won't. Respect is also very similar and linked to trust in my opinion. However, without respect, 100% respect, a marriage is likely to deteriorate over time. 

I will only accept 100% of all three, no exceptions. The way I look at it, all three are intertwined. If someone cheats on you, they lose your trust, they certainly have no respect for you, and really, if they truly loved you, would they do that???? Food for thought.


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## HungUp (Feb 26, 2011)

Corkey88 said:


> For me, there are three core values that must exist for a relationship to prosper - love, trust and respect.
> 
> Love is a must - it has to be there for a relationship to last. Trust is very personal and can vary between individuals. Some can accept less that 100% others can't or won't. Respect is also very similar and linked to trust in my opinion. However, without respect, 100% respect, a marriage is likely to deteriorate over time.
> 
> I will only accept 100% of all three, no exceptions. The way I look at it, all three are intertwined. If someone cheats on you, they lose your trust, they certainly have no respect for you, and really, if they truly loved you, would they do that???? Food for thought.



It's certainly food for thought, but....

If ALL of us trusted 100% then fewer of us would be here. Why? Because when we were told 'nothing happened' then we would TRUST them right away. When we find the phonebills soaring and get told 'it's only a friend' then we would TRUST them without a problem. I could go on and on but I don't have time just now. Hopefully you'll get my point that none of us trust (or trusted) 100%.


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## twotimeloser (Feb 13, 2011)

HungUp said:


> It's certainly food for thought, but....
> 
> If ALL of us trusted 100% then fewer of us would be here. Why? Because when we were told 'nothing happened' then we would TRUST them right away. When we find the phonebills soaring and get told 'it's only a friend' then we would TRUST them without a problem. I could go on and on but I don't have time just now. Hopefully you'll get my point that none of us trust (or trusted) 100%.


IF that was the case, and nobody trusted or was trusted at 100% levels, then trust only becomes an issue when a persons acceptable level of trust has been violated. SO the person who says " 94% trust is fine..." feels violated below that point. and the person who thinks " 50% trust is ok" feels violated at that level as well. Can you imagine that there are people walking around with levels of acceptable trust that low, before anything happens to violate it? Ouch, right? 

I am not so sure that i can get on board that boat.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Trust isn't a 'thing', it's a relative weight and measure of YOUR expectations.


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## twotimeloser (Feb 13, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> Trust isn't a 'thing', it's a relative weight and measure of YOUR expectations.


I can agree with that. Especially since our acceptable level of trust is based on our own needs. Although i think there are some basic "trusts" that can be expected from everything, I would be careful labeling it as a measure of expectation alone. 

The conflict of that statement comes into play as we look at those who have low expectations of others. Those who have low expectations are generally happier, but they do not necessarily require less trust in a relationship than those with high expectations. 

I think there is a fine line between mistrust and disappointment here. But i can agree that your statement has value to it.


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