# What advice would you give to a wayward/betrayed spouse and why?



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

@jld gets all the credit for this thread,as she thought of it. 

My advice to other wayward spouses would be, as I mentioned in my last post on CWI, 

Speak kindly and gently to yourself always. 
Name your emotions and why you think you might be feeling them. Record them. 
Never allow yourself to believe you are fundamentally bad. Always believe you can redeem yourself. 
Take as much time as you can, in between comforting your betrayed, to rest up and care for yourself. 
Always make a deadline or a due date for difficult, frightening tasks, so that you are obligated to follow through on your word, and so that you can have time to psychologically prepare.
Give yourself generous praise, and even occasional tangible rewards, for managing to stick with reconciliation, handling the maelstrom of emotions from you and your Betrayed, and for trying to do the right thing
Take time to grieve the loss of your spouse and/or romantic interest. Go through old mementos and put them away/throw them out. Cry as much as you feel the need to. Don't bottle it up or it will erupt much later, and in much more damaging ways than tears. 
Go through the pains of dismantling all the lies your affair partner told you. Unravel all the lies you told yourself about them as well. 
Seek therapy and medication if necessary. Nightmares and flashbacks can be devilish hard to get rid of without them. 

I give that advice out of my own experience as a wayward wife, and I'd give the same advice to betrayed spouses as well, but of course replacing "affair partner" with "Wayward spouse". I'd also advise the betrayed to prepare for divorce, and to learn to be okay-better than okay-without their spouse, so that they know they are choosing to stay out of dedication and real love, and not settling.

I really mean it about the grieving. That, and therapy, really helped me process. I dropped my OM's ring off a highway bridge, the one he said I'D throw MYSELF off of if I ever left him. It did just as much for my psyche as my first 6 weeks of intensive therapy.

What would you advise your friend/loved one to do if they were a betrayed or wayward spouse?


----------



## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

My advice would be to avoid TAM because of all the posters with a manhating agenda. Even if the man was the betrayed. 

I know whom to credit.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> My advice would be to avoid TAM because of all the posters with a manhating agenda. Even if the man was the betrayed.
> 
> I know whom to credit.


I haven't seen evidence of such. Man hating? On all the BH threads I've read here, most everyone was kind and helpful, and certainly they blamed the WW, not the BH. Have you been falsely blamed for your WW's actions?


----------



## Celes (Apr 28, 2015)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I haven't seen evidence of such. Man hating? On all the BH threads I've read here, most everyone was kind and helpful, and certainly they blamed the WW, not the BH. Have you been falsely blamed for your WW's actions?


He's actually the cheater in his marriage. And IIRC, got quite a bit of sympathy and help here.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

@blueinbr, my advice certainly applies to you, too, then. Take time for yourself. Be gentle with yourself. Other people's hatred of you or of waywards in general doesn't define you. Only your present actions define you, and if you're truly giving reconciliation your all, that's all you need to ask of yourself.


----------



## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I haven't seen evidence of such. Man hating? On all the BH threads I've read here, most everyone was kind and helpful, and certainly they blamed the WW, not the BH. Have you been falsely blamed for your WW's actions?




You either haven't been here long enough or you dont read the right forums. 

Btw my wife did not cheat


----------



## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

To the betrayed: 

1) Look at your spouse's actions, instead of their words. If they're saying they're sorry, do they seem defensive, are they justifying, or gas lighting, or deflecting their actions on something you did? Or are they showing genuine remorse? If they are impatient and can't understand why you can't just get over it, they aren't really sorry, they just want the negative consequences of their actions to stop.

2) Believe in your worth. You make mistakes, like any human being. But none of them really justify cheating. You don't deserve to be cheated on. Nobody does.

3) Be OK with being alone for a while. Rediscover who you really are and what you want. That way, when you're ready to open your heart again, you'll know you can be happy alone and that you don't NEED the other person.

4) Lean on those you're close to, especially if you have kids. It's going to take a village to get through this.

5) Self-care is vital - remember to eat, exercise and attempt to sleep. It's the only thing that got me through the awful period after D-Day. Look at exercise, healthy food and sleep as a sort of prescription (in addition to what prescriptions you're taking). It's what you need to look after yourself. 

6) Cut yourself some slack. It's OK to have sh&*^y days, to stumble a bit. That's a normal reaction to what you're going through. Keep pushing through it, because you KNOW you got this, even when it feels like you don't.

7) Don't obsess over knowing every detail, if you know enough to know they betrayed you. It won't make you feel better. Do you have enough evidence to know that they suck? Trust that they suck (to coin a Chump Lady phrase).

8) Wait at least 6 months before casually dating and at least a year before attempting a relationship. You'll think you're ready before then. You're not.


----------



## Mizzbak (Sep 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I haven't seen evidence of such. Man hating? On all the BH threads I've read here, most everyone was kind and helpful, and certainly they blamed the WW, not the BH. Have you been falsely blamed for your WW's actions?


FWIW I'm with you here - but then maybe I don't read the "right" forums either. (I find that it is better not to pay too much attention to misogynists, especially when they come over all prickly.)

I was going to go on to say that I am a BW, but I am much more than that. So I am a wife and mother whose husband has both loved and betrayed her. I am also a scientist and a fairly deep thinker. I try not be either arrogant or insensitive. I am sometimes a bit opinionated. I don't like bullies.)


*Things I would say to someone who has found out that their loved one has betrayed them?* I like the post of @joannacroc very much, but I would also add

1. Trust in yourself. Listen to your intuition. You have the strength and courage to get through this. Do not doubt that. 

2. The emotions that you feel are real and deserve to be given a voice. Let it be as loud or as quiet as it needs to be.

3. The world is full of pain, but it is also full of joy - look for it. Don't let your hurt become your whole universe. Do not be afraid to lay your burden down sometimes for a while. It will still be there when you come back. 

4. If you seek out advice and you judge it to be good, listen to it carefully. But remember that only you have your best interests at heart. See the pain and anger that drives so-called advisors for what it is. 

5. Decide what you want and need in your own time. Do not be rushed or pressured. You will know when the time is right. Do not let anyone else tell you what to do (that includes TAM posters).

6. The greatest gift that you can give yourself is your own honesty. The greatest gift that the one who hurt you can give is their honesty. The truth that comes from knowing both of these will emerge with time.

7. Do not allow the hurt that you feel to make you into someone that you are not.


----------



## nursejackie (May 22, 2015)

Advice to a Wayward-

Go to MC/IC

Learn about infidelity. Think about the science behind it- the production of chemicals in your brain, the addiction process. 
Start thinking about the OM/OW and the A in these terms.

Pay careful attention to the script. Understand that the OM/OW is not a special soul mate -they are just a deliverer of the chemicals you're craving. The A is not all rainbows and unicorns- it is false. It is deceptive. It is not real and has not stood the test of life or time.

Think about how you would feel if your spouse did this to you. If the roles were reversed can you imagine the pain you would feel? Put yourself in their place and feel the devastation that you have caused them. Imagine the drop to your knees feeling of being so distressed you want to vomit....was that what you intended your spouse to feel? 

Recognize that you were in a fog. Thats not an excuse but it is an explanation for your inability to take stock of the effects of your actions on your spouse, your family, your marriage. 

See yourself as flawed -not evil. See your spouse as flawed. Figure out what needs you were having met by OM/OW. Figure out how to have those needs met by your spouse. Figure out what needs you were not meeting for your spouse and meet them. You have stumbled but you can redeem yourself. You can R if you both want to but it will be a HARD LONG process.

I think my advice to a BS would be very similar to the above- learn about infidelity, learn about each others needs, MC/IC, demystify the A....and look after yourself. eat, sleep, dont drink/smoke too much. exercise, find a close friend to confide in. Start building an independent life and self that can withstand whatever the future brings. Know that you will be ok.


----------



## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

To waywards I would say be honest with yourself. Don't go into reconciliation because you got caught and are afraid of what everyone thinks. Only reconcile if you truly want to stay in your marriage.


----------



## JayOwen (Oct 26, 2016)

I have to admit, this was a very difficult post for me to read. At the risk of seriously hurting Ella's feelings, I think this list is more damaging than productive, at least for relatively new visitors to this sub, because of one word: entitlement.

That is the root of cheating, and I think anything that has the reek of it is a very dangerous thing for attempting-to-reform cheaters to digest. So, Ella, while it seems you had a very unique situation, one that you have atoned for with your husband, and he has forgiven you ... I think it is dangerous to assume this somehow provides a template for others who have transgressed. I say that as context so that if I refer to "you" below, I am not referring specifically to you, Ella, but rather than plural "you" i.e. someone who has cheated and might be reading this after the fact.

I'll take the list one at a time:



EllaSuaveterre said:


> Speak kindly and gently to yourself always.


I don't agree. Cheaters speak kindly and gently to themselves as a means of letting themselves slide into the affair. Now, the time for kind and gentle speech is over. Which is not to say you should hate yourself. Self-punishment is counterproductive, that's not what I'm advocating, but strict self-accountability is critical. Kind and gentle speech doesn't seem capable of delivering that.



EllaSuaveterre said:


> Name your emotions and why you think you might be feeling them. Record them.


Agreed, just don't think that naming them validates them. If anything, it should provide some future version of you an excellent insight into how misguided your thinking was.



EllaSuaveterre said:


> Never allow yourself to believe you are fundamentally bad. Always believe you can redeem yourself.


Keep that last part, lose the first part. Cheaters may not be FUNDAMENTALLY bad people, but their actions label them as such in a pretty critical part of life i.e. their most important relationship. The reality is you made an awful, hurtful, selfish decision -- you have to own that. It's ugly, and it's hard, and I think it's the reason most cheaters walk away rather than really try to fix things. Cheating is not a "flaw". It's a willful, destructive action. And cheaters are, in at least that limited respect, bad people for deciding it was okay. It doesn't mean a person isn't redeemable, and you're certainly not Hitler. But you can't pretend that what you did wasn't awful, otherwise you're never going to make up for it. Again, you shouldn't hate yourself or want to punish yourself, but you SHOULD hate what you did, and set yourself to never doing it again (if there's going to be any hope for reconciliation).



EllaSuaveterre said:


> Take as much time as you can, in between comforting your betrayed, to rest up and care for yourself.


This I find no fault in, taking care of your health is important no matter what.



EllaSuaveterre said:


> Always make a deadline or a due date for difficult, frightening tasks, so that you are obligated to follow through on your word, and so that you can have time to psychologically prepare.


I also agree that this is important and good advice. It not only moves the healing forward, it is proactive and shows your spouse that you are actively working, not just waiting for them to heal.



EllaSuaveterre said:


> Give yourself generous praise, and even occasional tangible rewards, for managing to stick with reconciliation, handling the maelstrom of emotions from you and your Betrayed, and for trying to do the right thing


Sorry. No. Just no. You know what your "reward" is for reconciliation? Not losing the person that you ostensibly love so much. That's it, end. The amount of pain and suffering that they go through on an hourly basis, from the moment they wake to the moment they fall asleep ... don't think for a second you deserve a reward after having inflicted that. Strike this one from the record. I'm absolutely serious, your reward is that you get a second chance. If you think you deserve more than that then you don't understand the gravity of what you've done.



EllaSuaveterre said:


> Take time to grieve the loss of your spouse and/or romantic interest. Go through old mementos and put them away/throw them out. Cry as much as you feel the need to. Don't bottle it up or it will erupt much later, and in much more damaging ways than tears.


Eh, maybe. Just don't do it anywhere I can see it. I mean what do you really need to grieve honestly? Don't you realize what you did was abuse? As soon as you start seeing it as abuse (and if you truly do love your spouse) it should be like a switch, you realize what you did was awful, that becomes all the antidote one should need. You might occasionally think about the affair partner, but grieving ... yuck. Don't let me see it. And, if I'm being truly honest, this really sounds like a woe-is-me-life-is-hard pity party ... and honestly there should be no room in your life for that if you truly realize what you've done.



EllaSuaveterre said:


> Go through the pains of dismantling all the lies your affair partner told you. Unravel all the lies you told yourself about them as well.


Ella, I think in your case this must be very much the reality, but I have to imagine it is NOT the norm. This advice seems to suggest that the affair partner was the "devil" and if only they hadn't come along then everything would be fine. Again, just no, that's not just wrong its DANGEROUSLy wrong. What cheaters need to realize is that they had the capacity to be a cheater. That's an ugly realization to have about oneself. A painful one, I'm sure. But it's also a gift. When you realize you have this capacity, you can take steps to guard against it. To put all the responsibility on the affair partner ... there's no accountability there. Seems like a pretty huge oversight if one is serious about making sure it never happens again.



EllaSuaveterre said:


> Seek therapy and medication if necessary. Nightmares and flashbacks can be devilish hard to get rid of without them.


Agreed, this is part of the stay healthy. Just be careful, therapists are "your team" and as such they have a nasty habit of giving you a free pass on your transgressions. That's fine as long as it stops at the doorway. You can have your safe space, you cannot come home to your betrayed spouse and give even the slightest inclination that you are somehow not ENTIRELY at fault, or that you're feeling better while they're still a mess.

So what are we left with for those who have betrayed their spouses:

Don't punish yourself, but understand that was you did was reprehensible.
You can redeem yourself, but that's not guarantee that your partner won't still leave you.
Take care of yourself in mind and body, regardless of what happens.
Make deadlines for your promises, no matter how difficult.
Seek a therapist, but don't think their kind words mean your spouse should forgive you.
Lastly, be prepared for divorce. Knowing that it's coming means you're sticking around for the right reasons.

But all the other stuff, the grieving and the self-affirmations and the rewards. I can't say it doesn't sound like a slap in the face. As a cheater, you ripped your spouse's heart out. Work out what you need to in therapy, but don't for a second bring that back to your spouse. You've already been too entitled, and that has to end before there's any hope of healing.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Your goal should be to decide what will make you happy and then do it. Worrying about punishing the cheater is pointless.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

JayOwen said:


> I have to admit, this was a very difficult post for me to read. At the risk of seriously hurting Ella's feelings, I think this list is more damaging than productive, at least for relatively new visitors to this sub, because of one word: entitlement.
> 
> I don't agree. Cheaters speak kindly and gently to themselves as a means of letting themselves slide into the affair. Now, the time for kind and gentle speech is over. Which is not to say you should hate yourself. Self-punishment is counterproductive, that's not what I'm advocating, but strict self-accountability is critical. Kind and gentle speech doesn't seem capable of delivering that.
> 
> ...


 @JayOwen As cautiously as you approached the subject, you needn't worry about hurting my feelings, though I appreciate your consideration. If you read the might-be article I wrote in another post, you'll see that validation of one's emotions- and the gentle self-talk inherent thereto- is a good tool for refocusing your feelings, intentions, and mind. 

I have a trauma-based disorder which often causes me to blow things very much out of proportion, and to have unbearable grief, self-hatred, or bitterness when they're not really called for. If that happens, I often also start to hate myself or become angry with myself for having emotional reactions such as I do. One of the very first ideas I learned in therapy, which I latched onto with all my might, was that every emotion, even inappropriate ones, are valid. This doesn't make them appropriate or good to act upon, but it makes them worthy of gentle acknowledgment. This concept almost immediately stripped away the self-hatred I felt for having too much or inappropriate emotionality.

To quote an article I recently wrote on the subject of infidelity and validation: 



> Validation does not mean that the affair was okay or that you should act on your feelings, only that you recognize the feelings are there. Address yourself comfortingly and soothingly without justifying the affair. For example, if you’ve gone two weeks without talking to your affair partner, you could say, “I’ve been through two weeks of missing my ex, and I survived! Someday soon, I won’t miss them anymore.” Or if your Betrayed Spouse lashes out at you, you might think to yourself, “This is really painful and difficult for me, but I’m doing the best I can, and can get through it.” If you miss your affair partner and want to call them, you might say to yourself, "It's natural to miss someone I've had a romantic/sexual relationship with, but I can't call them because I made a promise to my spouse not to hurt them anymore by contacting my ex."


One can validate oneself in a way that also acknowledges the consequences of acting on the emotions one is currently feeling. 

Also, if you would be so kind as to indulge me, read the whole article if you haven't. It explains why, precisely, I mention rewarding oneself and grieving. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/365977-i-wrote-article.html

When a wayward spouse has just ended things with their affair partner, it really can feel hopeless and desolate and miserable. Not as miserable as the Betrayed of course, but still miserable. While I can't say this was the case with me, in a "typical" affair, you hear things like, "I'm not in love with my spouse. I never really was. I love my affair partner. But I can't leave my spouse because (vague excuse about comfort or finances). " 

Often, the wayward can't see the reasons that they chose to stay with their betrayed spouse until well after the fog has lifted. Often, they don't even know they _chose_ to stay with their spouse!! They act as though they were _forced_ to break up with their affair partner. (who, to them, didn't have any flaws whatsoever and was totally their soul-mate written in the stars just for them) 

Until their affair-induced fever-dream breaks and they can see themselves and their affair partner for who they really are, they won't feel morally driven to do the right thing, so they might indeed need to praise and reward themselves and provide self-centered incentive to stay with their spouse, as again, they don't realize that A) they _chose_ to leave their paramour and B) in doing so, they made the moral choice, the choice that will eventually be better for them.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

> Often, the wayward can't see the reasons that they chose to stay with their betrayed spouse until well after the fog has lifted.


that's downright scary. I stayed with my (future) husband after his EA/ inappropriate relationship with an ex because when I raised the issue with him, his reaction was immediate. No "I can be friends with whomever the hell I want " type conversations or any relapses thereafter.

there were a couple moments when i had to redirect his thinking ie, he called me psycho when I admitted I had google searched her using her e-mail address (already publicly available info) until I reminded him about she repeatedly asked about our sex life (info that only he would have access to and no permissions to hand out to every and anyone who asked) ( I had seen the text messages) ...... oh yeah.....

If i had to wait 6 months to a year before my partner acts as if staying with me was the right thing to do, I would have been long gone.


----------



## Pixel (Jan 10, 2017)

Betrayed Spouses:

My advice is to do the complete opposite to what I have done.


----------



## JayOwen (Oct 26, 2016)

I did read the article Ella, it seems pretty much in line with the above. And so unfortunately I don't really see anything different to sway my opinion.

I understand that your point is helping cheaters maintain their sanity while trying to put the pieces back together, to keep them going until the fog lifts and they can truly understand and atone for what they did. My point is that most of this advice will prolong that fog, not shorten it. And for a group of people already prone to weaponized selfishness I don't think any advice encouraging prioritizing their own needs over the needs of their devastated spouses is helpful.

So, I would encourage any reformed cheaters reading this or your other article to understand that applies to a very unique situation. It worked for you and your husband. From what I understand, in your case, you were equally wounded. That's not the case for most couples.

Yes, there are problems in all of these marriages, and unhappiness on both sides, etc, etc. But the cheater chooses to take those problems and light them on fire. 

To tell such a person that they should now take a moment to lament their own burned fingertips, while their spouse is in the burn ward, is just encouraging the wrong kind of thinking in a group of people who have already shown to have significant empathy issues.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

JayOwen said:


> I did read the article Ella, it seems pretty much in line with the above. And so unfortunately I don't really see anything different to sway my opinion.
> 
> I understand that your point is helping cheaters maintain their sanity while trying to put the pieces back together, to keep them going until the fog lifts and they can truly understand and atone for what they did. My point is that most of this advice will prolong that fog, not shorten it.


I see some of your point about how a wayward spouse grieving their affair partner could cause significant psychological damage to the spouse. This is why I encourage Wayward spouses to grieve, look after themselves, and otherwise facilitate their own healing alone and on their own time. Also I would never advocate a wayward spouse putting their own needs above their betrayed spouse. In my article I said repeatedly that the Betrayed spouse comes first. Although that may feel unfair to the wayward, and they can help soothe that sense of unfairness with adequate self-care, it still stands that the Betrayed spouse by default comes first.

I could be entirely wrong about this and I'm willing to admit that's a distinct possibility, but I'm of the belief that there is nothing anyone can do to either prolong or shorten the affair fog, once the affair is over and no-contact has been firmly established.

I had some of those feelings I mentioned in my previous post about not being as in love with my husband, or more accurately in my case, of being in love with two people, during the A. The OM's abuse killed that, though. By the time I went NC, I didn't believe I loved the OM, but I still missed the moments where he wasn't cruel towards me. I struggled to see him as imperfect. I did miss him post-A and at times I thought I'd always miss him. It would be several weeks before I would realize that he was not a good person and not who I believed he was. 

Nobody could command me, back then, to stop missing the OM. If they tried, or tried to explain to me how selfish I was being, I simply couldn't comprehend their words. I wasn't trying to be obstinate on purpose; I just plainly couldn't be reasoned into seeing the things I needed to see. That had to come on its own time.

My case was different in that my relationship with the OM was not 100% consensual. Yet I think the premise is the same. Hormones take time to die, and only no-contact combined with time can kill them. Scolding and reasoning and shaming and explaining just can't. There are a lot of steps a wayward spouse has to go through before they can see life as it really is. There has to be enough time behind them that they can distance themselves from the fantasies they believed about their affair partner. It takes time and tears to understand that their so-called twin flame was based entirely on the lies they told themselves. Then and only then can they see what they've done.


----------



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

JayOwen said:


> . My point is that most of this advice will prolong that fog, not shorten it. And for a group of people already prone to weaponized selfishness I don't think any advice encouraging prioritizing their own needs over the needs of their devastated spouses is helpful.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I get what your saying but it's not that black and white. You reek of disdain and judgement. Sometimes the betrayed spouse is not the only victim. 
I also don't think you should speak of something you haven't experienced. Have you ever cheated on your spouse? Do you know what it's like to betray and rip the heart out of the person you love? Because the OP does. So she can speak best on it. My point is the betrayed spouse isn't the only one that hurts. Yes it's caused by the WW actions but they are not always the evil, selfish person you are speaking of.


----------



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

People like to put people in boxes, it makes them feel good. Bad people do bad things go in this box, good people do good things and go In this box. If you thought you had a good one, but then they cheat, oops you must be wrong they are a lion in sheeps clothing. I don't subscribe by this notion. 

People are human, mistakes make us human, they don't determine whether we are bad or good. PATTERNS of behavior determine whether we are "good" or "bad".


----------



## ShatteredStill (Dec 20, 2016)

Ella. I can empathize with this statement very easily because it's a part, JUST a part of what I've been going through...

"I have a trauma-based disorder which often causes me to blow things very much out of proportion, and to have unbearable grief, self-hatred, or bitterness when they're not really called for. If that happens, I often also start to hate myself or become angry with myself for having emotional reactions such as I do. One of the very first ideas I learned in therapy, which I latched onto with all my might, was that every emotion, even inappropriate ones, are valid. This doesn't make them appropriate or good to act upon, but it makes them worthy of gentle acknowledgment. This concept almost immediately stripped away the self-hatred I felt for having too much or inappropriate emotionality."

I know that your experience is very unique to you just as mine is to me. My husband committed adultery while I was recovering from life saving, brutal, surgery. Yes, I understand that a bs must identify how they were complicit in creating the atmosphere within their marriage for infidelity to arise. Unfortunately for me, that basically means 'Don't be sick!!'. That's pretty hard when you have incredibly painful illnesses including cancer. 

I recognize that I'm an 'extreme' like you. Sometimes, gently, we have to recognize just how different our situations are to many reeling from the devastation & emotional carnage of infidelity. Not all waywards are bad or plain evil BUT it takes an immense amount of selfishness & selfjustification to continually, intentionally commit adultery & deny that you are, with malice, destroying the one person who dearly loves you & has had your back through thick & thin. 

If come d-day the wayward doesn't feel compassion & empathy at the site of the bs crumpling before their eyes they do not deserve a second chance. If the self-created fog is so dense & the justifications so strong that they need to follow much of your advise they should do the only decent thing & leave until they have 'fixed' themselves. They are not fit to be a true 'partner' to anyone.


----------



## ShatteredStill (Dec 20, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> People like to put people in boxes, it makes them feel good. Bad people do bad things go in this box, good people do good things and go In this box. If you thought you had a good one, but then they cheat, oops you must be wrong they are a lion in sheeps clothing. I don't subscribe by this notion.
> 
> People are human, mistakes make us human, they don't determine whether we are bad or good. PATTERNS of behavior determine whether we are "good" or "bad".



I do agree however the way we treat others & the way we react to our 'mistakes' during & after speaks volumes about our character. 

Why do some cheat & others find it abhorant? I don't believe it's simply a matter of meeting the 'right' person at the wrong time. Is it a weakness or character fault? If not, is it 'destiny' (something I don't believe in)?


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

ShatteredStill said:


> If come d-day the wayward doesn't feel compassion & empathy at the site of the bs crumpling before their eyes they do not deserve a second chance. If the self-created fog is so dense & the justifications so strong that they need to follow much of your advise they should do the only decent thing & leave until they have 'fixed' themselves. They are not fit to be a true 'partner' to anyone.


I don't particularly disagree with that. Infidelity can and often does break a marriage. Often the Wayward spouse doesn't come to see the light until it's too late. 

My post isn't about making then see the light; I don't believe anyone can do that. Falling "out of love" with your affair partner and recommitting to the marriage takes time, and _only_ time can make it happen. Usually an affair is nothing more than a series of chemicals- and of course the decision to act on those chemicals- and logic just can't touch that until the chemicals have had time to dissipate. 

My article is less about becoming remorseful- because again, you cannot CONVINCE anyone to feel what they can't feel yet- and more about keeping no-contact whilst waiting out one's conflicting feelings.


----------



## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> @jld gets all the credit for this thread,as she thought of it.
> 
> My advice to other wayward spouses would be, as I mentioned in my last post on CWI,
> 
> ...


Nice try but 'give yourself generous praise' etc lacks a whole load of humility which is why Waywards get into the situations that create so much pain for everyone else. That part of your post is very off putting and reflects exactly why some people are waywards and some are not.
The narcissm peaks through and is difficult to hide.


----------



## OnTheRocks (Sep 26, 2011)

This list and the article are just continuations of the selfish behavior of a WW.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

aine said:


> Nice try but 'give yourself generous praise' etc lacks a whole load of humility which is why Waywards get into the situations that create so much pain for everyone else. That part of your post is very off putting and reflects exactly why some people are waywards and some are not.
> The narcissm peaks through and is difficult to hide.


I feel a bit like I'm repeating myself here if I say that humility and true remorse take time to develop and doesn't grow on trees, so I will simply say instead the one can give oneself generous praise for attempting to do the right thing whilst also being honest with oneself about what one has done.

For example: "I have made a terrible choice and broken my husband's heart, but I am not a fundamentally bad person. I'm a good person deep down, and therefore I can make the choice not to contact my ex-boyfriend. Breaking up with my paramour was painful, but I'm strong enough to sick with no-contact. Empathising with my betrayed husband doesn't come naturally to me yet, but I'm going to make the choice to try. From now on, I'll act like the good person I know I can be instead of choosing to make myself feel good at my husband's expense."


----------



## OnTheRocks (Sep 26, 2011)

You really don't get it.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

JayOwen said:


> I have to admit, this was a very difficult post for me to read. At the risk of seriously hurting Ella's feelings, I think this list is more damaging than productive, at least for relatively new visitors to this sub, because of one word: entitlement.
> 
> That is the root of cheating, and I think anything that has the reek of it is a very dangerous thing for attempting-to-reform cheaters to digest. So, Ella, while it seems you had a very unique situation, one that you have atoned for with your husband, and he has forgiven you ... I think it is dangerous to assume this somehow provides a template for others who have transgressed. I say that as context so that if I refer to "you" below, I am not referring specifically to you, Ella, but rather than plural "you" i.e. someone who has cheated and might be reading this after the fact.
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree: Can't like this post enough.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

OnTheRocks said:


> You really don't get it.


What, exactly, do I fail to grasp?

As far as my own story goes, my own d-day was 2.5 years ago. My husband and I have read "not just friends" and I have read "how to help your spouse heal from your affair". We tell each other everything, and we have BOTH gotten through our trauma involving my affair. In my story, I was the one to have nightmares and flashbacks. If my husband ever had a nightmare or flashback or if he ever has any more pain he needs to express, I will be right there, holding him and comforting him until his pain subsides. It is my duty and my honor. I am overjoyed to know that I have the opportunity to help him if he should ever need it. 

I recognize that what I have done to my husband could have _easily_ given him PTSD, and I'm very lucky that that doesn't seem to be the case. I recognize that the betrayed spouse is almost always in more pain than the wayward spouse can even concieve of. I recognize that the betrayed spouse- my BH absolutely included- needs and deserves the most tender, empathetic, and honest compassion on earth. I recognize that the wayward spouse has to fundamentally reconstruct their entire outlook on marriage, love, and personal happiness. 

I also recognize, though, that self-compassion is a basic human need, no matter what you have done or how badly you have destroyed someone. A wayward spouse who has just broken up with their affair partner is probably struggling to get over their feelings for their ex, and needs a PRIVATE, compassionate internal monologue to keep them going


----------



## OnTheRocks (Sep 26, 2011)

It's still all about you. That's what you fail to grasp.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> Have you ever cheated on your spouse? Do you know what it's like to betray and rip the heart out of the person you love?



Have you ever stolen money from someone do you know what it is like to to have them lose all the money because of you.

Have you ever punched someone in the face to you know what it's like to have your hand hurt for hours afterwards. 

You sentence it laughable. Talk about misplaced sympathy. You sound like the guy who punches his wife and then says do you know how much it hurt me to do it.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> People like to put people in boxes, it makes them feel good. Bad people do bad things go in this box, good people do good things and go In this box. If you thought you had a good one, but then they cheat, oops you must be wrong they are a lion in sheeps clothing. I don't subscribe by this notion.
> 
> People are human, mistakes make us human, they don't determine whether we are bad or good. PATTERNS of behavior determine whether we are "good" or "bad".


I always contend if you want a better chance of not getting cheated on date the people who have back and white thinking. They are much safer without those gray justifications. Just saying.

Judgment is a good thing. Everyone should be judged on their actions.

Thankfully in Ella's case she is trying to do good to compensate for the bad she has done. That is to her credit.


----------



## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I feel a bit like I'm repeating myself here if I say that humility and true remorse take time to develop and doesn't grow on trees, so I will simply say instead the one can give oneself generous praise for attempting to do the right thing whilst also being honest with oneself about what one has done.
> 
> For example: "I have made a terrible choice and broken my husband's heart, but I am not a fundamentally bad person. I'm a good person deep down, and therefore I can make the choice not to contact my ex-boyfriend. Breaking up with my paramour was painful, but I'm strong enough to sick with no-contact. Empathising with my betrayed husband doesn't come naturally to me yet, but I'm going to make the choice to try. From now on, I'll act like the good person I know I can be instead of choosing to make myself feel good at my husband's expense."


Actually, I'm sorry but this isn't really any better. There is still a lack of humility. The sense of self importance and the grandiose view of oneself keeps the focus still on you rather than on the person that you have wounded. 

As I said before, I think waywards have lack of empathy (therefore closely connected to narcissism) because if a person has empathy they will not set out to hurt others. I have had many reasons to cheat on my husband, could have but ensured I never put myself in a place where I would cross that line because I knew what it would do to him, but he didn't have the same consideration for me, why because he always puts himself first, it is about his pain, his desires, his wants, etc. To my mind waywards are all about themselves.

I don't mean to put you on the spot, it is good to see you engaging in the aftermath and what needs to change and you are brave to do so.


----------



## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

katiecrna said:


> People like to put people in boxes, it makes them feel good. Bad people do bad things go in this box, good people do good things and go In this box. If you thought you had a good one, but then they cheat, oops you must be wrong they are a lion in sheeps clothing. I don't subscribe by this notion.
> 
> People are human, mistakes make us human, they don't determine whether we are bad or good. PATTERNS of behavior determine whether we are "good" or "bad".


There you go with that thinking again, affairs, adultery, blowing up a marriage, breaking up a family, right, they are all just 'mistakes.' Got you!:wtf:


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Everyone has a mixture of good and bad in them. Dark and light. A person must dig deep to understand both sides of themselves. This is the only road to self-truth and accountability. 

Many people run from the bad part of themselves, and that is why they never grow or heal. I think you must take stock of your dark side, understand it, then learn the necessary skills to control it. Saying "I'm not a bad person. I'm a good person who did a bad thing" is dishonest and in the end self-sabotaging.


----------



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

sokillme said:


> I always contend if you want a better chance of not getting cheated on date the people who have back and white thinking. They are much safer without those gray justifications. Just saying.
> 
> Judgment is a good thing. Everyone should be judged on their actions.
> 
> Thankfully in Ella's case she is trying to do good to compensate for the bad she has done. That is to her credit.




According to you and your black and white thinking Elle IS a bad person because not only did she cheat, she is coming on here and teaching us how to forgive/get past the wrong that she (the guilty bad person) has done.


----------



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

aine said:


> There you go with that thinking again, affairs, adultery, blowing up a marriage, breaking up a family, right, they are all just 'mistakes.' Got you!:wtf:




I don't know how to respond to this. People who have affairs and cheat are super selfish and there is no excuse to what they did. BUT my point is that doesn't mean she is a bad terrible person. She DID a bad and terrible thing. 

Cheating is terrible and wrong and never ever ever ok. Period. But sh*t happens and now you have to deal with it. That's the reality of life, it's not perfect ok. So now the betrayed has to choose to stay in the marriage or not. And this decision depends on a lot of things. The truth is, people who cheat aren't necessarily bad people. And you can go on in a happy healthy marriage if one chooses to stay. Or the pain and hurt and betray is too much to get over. Or the spouse isn't that great of a spouse to begin with so it's not worth saving. 

I feel like how you view cheating will reflect how you may or may not get over it if it happens. I'm sure a lot of our grandparents have experience an affair. And yes this was a different time, but is breaking up a family worth it? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

katiecrna said:


> I feel like how you view cheating will reflect how you may or may not get over it if it happens. I'm sure a lot of our grandparents have experience an affair. And yes this was a different time, *but is breaking up a family worth it?* Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.


Ha!

Isn't it great that the betrayed always winds up wrestling w/ the very same question that the wayward summarily disregarded to begin with?


----------



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

bandit.45 said:


> Many people run from the bad part of themselves, and that is why they never grow or heal. I think you must take stock of your dark side, understand it, then learn the necessary skills to control it. Saying "I'm not a bad person. I'm a good person who did a bad thing" is dishonest and in the end self-sabotaging.



I agree with this and I'm not trying to convince people who have cheated to think this way. I'm trying to convince a board of people who think cheating is unforgivable and everyone who does it is a bad person. 

I understand that there are every walk of life in this forum. Maybe I'm old fashion and traditional or who knows what you want to call it but I'm very pro marriage and pro making your marriage work. A problem I see with this forum at times is how quick people suggest divorce. Or suggest they are being cheated on. It's a very tough forum with a lot of judgement at times.


----------



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

GusPolinski said:


> Ha!
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't it great that the betrayed always winds up wrestling w/ the very same question that the wayward summarily disregarded to begin with?




Come on... no one is perfect. You act like perfection must be maintained to stay in a marriage.
How many times have I read a man post about how he has neglected his wife over the years, or he was not emotionally available and now he all of a sudden feels bad Bc after years his wife decided to check out and ask for a divorce and what can I do to win her back. 
Can't people see the problem in this? Why is cheating the big thing that people can't get over. Sometimes a spouse gets neglected, and it's NOT ok, but sh*t happens. Sometimes a neglected spouse strays, and it's NOT ok, but sh*t happens. I know this is going to get a lot of disagreeing comments but SOMETIMES spouses cheat because they are neglected. That doesn't make it OK! But either does neglecting your spouse. 

Marriage is not a laundry list of things you need to have to continue the relationship. Sex 5x a month, be a certain weight, have enough time together, be faithful, date night every week. If you fall out of those requirements then divorce. It doesn't work like that.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Cheating and cheaters are becoming less and less tolerated in our society.

Ella, consider yourself lucky that your partner is willing to take you back.... especially with your attitude.

If She Cheats, Must You Let Her Go? - AskMen


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

katiecrna said:


> Come on... no one is perfect. You act like perfection must be maintained to stay in a marriage.
> How many times have I read a man post about how he has neglected his wife over the years, or he was not emotionally available and now he all of a sudden feels bad Bc after years his wife decided to check out and ask for a divorce and what can I do to win her back.
> Can't people see the problem in this? *Why is cheating the big thing that people can't get over. *Sometimes a spouse gets neglected, and it's NOT ok, but sh*t happens. Sometimes a neglected spouse strays, and it's NOT ok, but sh*t happens. I know this is going to get a lot of disagreeing comments but SOMETIMES spouses cheat because they are neglected. That doesn't make it OK! But either does neglecting your spouse.
> 
> Marriage is not a laundry list of things you need to have to continue the relationship. Sex 5x a month, be a certain weight, have enough time together, be faithful, date night every week. If you fall out of those requirements then divorce. It doesn't work like that.


why do you feel the need to defend cheating? Cheaters should date and marry one another. I wonder how many cheaters think that's a good idea.


----------



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

NextTimeAround said:


> why do you feel the need to defend cheating? Cheaters should date and marry one another. I wonder how many cheaters think that's a good idea.




I don't want to be with someone who cheats. I don't want to be with someone who neglects me. I don't want to be with someone who doesn't have sex with me as much as I like. I don't want to be with someone who gains a bunch of weight. I don't want to be with someone who gives up on the marriage when the road is rough. 

People talk about cheating like it's murder or molestation.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

katiecrna said:


> I don't want to be with someone who cheats. I don't want to be with someone who neglects me. I don't want to be with someone who doesn't have sex with me as much as I like. I don't want to be with someone who gains a bunch of weight. I don't want to be with someone who gives up on the marriage when the road is rough.
> 
> *People talk about cheating like it's murder or molestation.*


Adultery is not a crime in the western world. You can be incarcerated for murder or molestation.

Ironically, outside of the western world, adultery is a crime for which many women are forced to pay the ultimate price while men in those places quite often suffer no consequences for murder or molestation.


----------



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

NextTimeAround said:


> Adultery is not a crime in the western world. You can be incarcerated for murder or molestation.
> 
> 
> 
> Ironically, outside of the western world, adultery is a crime for which many women are forced to pay the ultimate price while men in those places quite often suffer no consequences for murder or molestation.




Yea deeply religious countries. In Europe, Canada not so much. 
There are a lot of crazy things that are illegal in certain parts of the world, including listening To music and drinking alcohol.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

katiecrna said:


> Yea deeply religious countries. In Europe, Canada not so much.
> There are a lot of crazy things that are illegal in certain parts of the world, including listening To music and drinking alcohol.



the point here is that in the western world, you can commit adultery all you want and still not go to jail or pay a fine for it.

so what exactly are you looking for?


----------



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

NextTimeAround said:


> the point here is that in the western world, you can commit adultery all you want and still not go to jail or pay a fine for it.
> 
> 
> 
> so what exactly are you looking for?




I get what your saying. And your right, what else do I want? I certainly don't want it to be an acceptable norm. Thanks for getting me to this place.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

bandit.45 said:


> Everyone has a mixture of good and bad in them. Dark and light. A person must dig deep to understand both sides of themselves. This is the only road to self-truth and accountability.
> 
> Many people run from the bad part of themselves, and that is why they never grow or heal. I think you must take stock of your dark side, understand it, then learn the necessary skills to control it. Saying "I'm not a bad person. I'm a good person who did a bad thing" is dishonest and in the end self-sabotaging.


That might be true, if the implication of saying, "I'm a good person who did a bad thing" were, "I'm usually naturally good, so I don't have to worry about this happening again because I don't have it in me to cheat twice." because that isn't true. I could fall in love with someone outside my marriage again, but now I know how to make the choice not to, and how not to put myself in that situation.

It's more accurate, I suppose, to say, "I could be a good person, and redeem myself, if I want to. I could also be a bad person and keep cheating. I would rather put in the effort to make sure I never cheat again. I will choose to be a good person."


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

aine said:


> Actually, I'm sorry but this isn't really any better. There is still a lack of humility. The sense of self importance and the grandiose view of oneself keeps the focus still on you rather than on the person that you have wounded.
> 
> As I said before, I think waywards have lack of empathy (therefore closely connected to narcissism) because if a person has empathy they will not set out to hurt others. I have had many reasons to cheat on my husband, could have but ensured I never put myself in a place where I would cross that line because I knew what it would do to him, but he didn't have the same consideration for me, why because he always puts himself first, it is about his pain, his desires, his wants, etc. To my mind waywards are all about themselves.
> 
> I don't mean to put you on the spot, it is good to see you engaging in the aftermath and what needs to change and you are brave to do so.


I think there is a time and a place for both self-compassion and compassion towards others, and that the two frames of mind need not conflict. Obviously, the internal monologue of, "I am a good person. I am strong enough to do this. I do not hate myself." etc. etc. stays inside your head where it belongs, especially in the early days. When your betrayed spouse needs you, needs to be comforted, needs you to somehow make his or her trauma less devastating, you get over there no matter what and you try to stitch up the gaping, long-lasting psychological wound you inflicted on the person you used to love. I would never, ever, _ever_ advise a wayward spouse to tell their betrayed spouse that they're hurting too. Because the betrayed spouse is hurting worse, end of story.

But if you tell somebody that their pain doesn't matter in any context, as I have seen betrayed spouses do to waywards on marriage forums, you dehumanise and denigrate them. You take something away that they and every human being needs to survive. People _have_ to have a place to process their own pain, _even though_ they also hurt others. It is integral to the survival of the human spirit. What I am trying to do is to comfortingly tell wayward spouses that they still have the basic human right to self-compassion. They need to not share that with their spouse, because telling the person you just psychologically destroyed that you're still a good person will destroy them further. But they still need to make a place in their head to console themselves. 

If all anybody ever hears is that their needs no longer matter at all, that they are morally degenerate scum, that they have lost the right to have anyone care how they feel, they will retreat into themselves and not have the strength to come out and help their spouse like they need to. No matter how awful of a person you are and how heinous your actions have been, you need emotional stamina to comfort and heal others. Telling somebody that their needs don't matter because of what they have done saps them of that stamina and makes them unable to do their job. Their job is to comfort the person they just shattered, and they can't do that if they don't make time and space to replenish themselves psychocologically.


----------



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

I think that the adulterer needs to focus on loving their spouse and helping their spouse. 
The idea that the adulterer needs to be comforted is a little strange to me. I get that you need to forgive yourself and tell yourself your not a terrible person but to seek comfort in a professional way is weird to me. It's a little egocentric, self indulgent which another poster said is part of the problem with the adulterer in the first place... selfishness and narcissistic.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Ella, you mentioned that your husband, while pained by your affair, still managed to cope with it and carry both of you emotionally. He does not seem to have needed what some authors say betrayed spouses need. Why do you think this was?


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> The idea that the adulterer needs to be comforted is a little strange to me. I get that you need to forgive yourself and tell yourself your not a terrible person but to seek comfort in a professional way is weird to me. It's a little egocentric, self indulgent which another poster said is part of the problem with the adulterer in the first place... selfishness and narcissistic.



Why? To comfort oneself may be self-indulgent, but only in the same way that bathing and eating are self-indulgent. Everybody needs these things to survive. Everybody needs to know that they are worthy of self-love. Victims and perpetrators alike. Does it make me a little uncomfortable to picture my abusive OM showing himself compassion? Of bloody course it does. That's human. There is a deep-seated part of me that obviously thinks my abuser is not worthy of any kind of psychological peace because of the role he played in my life. That's normal. Completely normal. And yet, if someone who never had any part in the abuse met my OM and told him that he deserved to love himself and forgive himself, this person would be objectively correct. 

In the same way, those who have been cheated on- which, yes, is a form of emotional abuse- feel horrified at the idea that the person who destroyed them deserves self-love and inner peace. And yet, they do. Especially if they are sorry for hurting their spouse. This does not mean the spouse ever has to forgive them, accept their apology, or wish them well. Just as I could never wish my abuser well after what he did to me. Yet, people deserve peace and healing, even if their wounds are self-inflicted.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Why? To comfort oneself may be self-indulgent, but only in the same way that bathing and eating are self-indulgent. Everybody needs these things to survive. Everybody needs to know that they are worthy of self-love. Victims and perpetrators alike. Does it make me a little uncomfortable to picture my abusive OM showing himself compassion? Of bloody course it does. That's human. There is a deep-seated part of me that obviously thinks my abuser is not worthy of any kind of psychological peace because of the role he played in my life. That's normal. Completely normal. And yet, if someone who never had any part in the abuse met my OM and told him that he deserved to love himself and forgive himself, this person would be objectively correct.
> 
> In the same way, those who have been cheated on- which, yes, is a form of emotional abuse- feel horrified at the idea that the person who destroyed them deserves self-love and inner peace. And yet, they do. Especially if they are sorry for hurting their spouse. This does not mean the spouse ever has to forgive them, accept their apology, or wish them well. Just as I could never wish my abuser well after what he did to me. Yet, *people deserve peace and healing*, even if their wounds are self-inflicted.


It is probably the only way they will stop hurting others.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

katiecrna said:


> I don't want to be with someone who cheats. I don't want to be with someone who neglects me. I don't want to be with someone who doesn't have sex with me as much as I like. I don't want to be with someone who gains a bunch of weight. I don't want to be with someone who gives up on the marriage when the road is rough.
> 
> People talk about cheating like it's murder or molestation.


You maybe mistakenly make the assumption that all cheating occurs in bad marriages or are a result of one spouse being neglected. This is hardly the case. In truth cheating is a character issue. Many people are tempted.... some walk away and others succumbed, the difference in that decision making is the character that one has.

All those things you say you don't want to be with also come with a choice to stay or go. Some choose to cheat but that choice, like murder and molestation, a choice.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

jld said:


> Ella, you mentioned that your husband, while pained by your affair, still managed to cope with it and carry both of you emotionally. He does not seem to have needed what some authors say betrayed spouses need. Why do you think this was?


Actually, I have no idea. I've asked him and he said, "I try not to let it get to me. It's in the past. And it doesn't really apply anymore or affect our lives. You've learned your lesson, I think. Anyway, I was just worried about you, mostly. You could have died."

Best case scenario, he's just very, very resilient, having grown up the youngest of three brothers in a household where self-reliance was glorified. 

Worst case, he's rugsweeping. I am always prepared in the back of my mind for him to explode with grief and rage and sheer mental torment. I've told him during a game of _The And_ once that I would not be one bit surprised if he one day dropped to the floor and developed full-blown PTSD. He said that was extremely unlikely. Time will tell.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

I wouldn't say much to a WS other than if you ever want to change or help your partner heal you will have to take full accountability for your actions

To other BS I would say that many people in the world are of good and morale character and won't cheat. If you are betrayed because of the choice they made you also have choices and one of them is to leave and find a person of good character to be married to.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Actually, I have no idea. I've asked him and he said, "I try not to let it get to me. It's in the past. And it doesn't really apply anymore or affect our lives. You've learned your lesson, I think. Anyway, I was just worried about you, mostly. You could have died."
> 
> Best case scenario, he's just very, very resilient, having grown up the youngest of three brothers in a household where self-reliance was glorified.
> 
> Worst case, he's rugsweeping. I am always prepared in the back of my mind for him to explode with grief and rage and sheer mental torment. I've told him during a game of _The And_ once that I would not be one bit surprised if he one day dropped to the floor and developed full-blown PTSD. *He said that was extremely unlikely. *Time will tell.


I am inclined to believe him, Ella. 

He seems like a very strong man, a very good man. A trustworthy man. You are blessed. 

And so is he.


----------



## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

katiecrna said:


> I think that the adulterer needs to focus on loving their spouse and helping their spouse.
> The idea that the adulterer needs to be comforted is a little strange to me. I get that you need to forgive yourself and tell yourself your not a terrible person but to seek comfort in a professional way is weird to me. It's a little egocentric, self indulgent which another poster said is part of the problem with the adulterer in the first place... selfishness and narcissistic.


While I agree with you, the problem with this happening has a lot to do with the personality types and relationship nuances. In my situation my XWW always leaned on me for support in our marriage, and I mean always. So when she cheated she ended up in a situation where she wasn't prepared or able do what you suggest. The first reason is she never developed those skills since I never leaned on her for emotional support. The second reason was she was so used to leaning on me and I wasn't willing/able to be there for her that she lost her support system, which greatly amplified her emotional crisis. So in reality while she should have supported me and put me above her, there was no way she would have been able to do that. For me to have expected that from her wouldn't have been realistic knowing the type of person she is and what she was capable of at that time. I don't fault her for it since it is how she was wired, but I wouldn't accept it either. If I had wanted R, I would have been forced to take the lead and help her navigate out of that situation until she was healed enough to help me. If she had a different personality or we had a different relationship dynamic, maybe things would have been able to go the way you suggest, but it was never going to be possible with her.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Bananapeel said:


> While I agree with you, the problem with this happening has a lot to do with the personality types and relationship nuances. In my situation my XWW always leaned on me for support in our marriage, and I mean always. So when she cheated she ended up in a situation where she wasn't prepared or able do what you suggest. The first reason is she never developed those skills since I never leaned on her for emotional support. The second reason was she was so used to leaning on me and I wasn't willing/able to be there for her that she lost her support system, which greatly amplified her emotional crisis. So in reality while she should have supported me and put me above her, there was no way she would have been able to do that. For me to have expected that from her wouldn't have been realistic knowing the type of person she is and what she was capable of at that time. I don't fault her for it since it is how she was wired, but I wouldn't accept it either. If I had wanted R, I would have been forced to take the lead and help her navigate out of that situation until she was healed enough to help me. If she had a different personality or we had a different relationship dynamic, maybe things would have been able to go the way you suggest, but it was never going to be possible with her.


Very honest post, bananapeel. Affairs, and healing from them, are not necessarily one size fits all.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Bananapeel said:


> While I agree with you, the problem with this happening has a lot to do with the personality types and relationship nuances. In my situation my XWW always leaned on me for support in our marriage, and I mean always. So when she cheated she ended up in a situation where she wasn't prepared or able do what you suggest. The first reason is she never developed those skills since I never leaned on her for emotional support. The second reason was she was so used to leaning on me and I wasn't willing/able to be there for her that she lost her support system, which greatly amplified her emotional crisis. So in reality while she should have supported me and put me above her, there was no way she would have been able to do that. For me to have expected that from her wouldn't have been realistic knowing the type of person she is and what she was capable of at that time. I don't fault her for it since it is how she was wired, but I wouldn't accept it either. If I had wanted R, I would have been forced to take the lead and help her navigate out of that situation until she was healed enough to help me. If she had a different personality or we had a different relationship dynamic, maybe things would have been able to go the way you suggest, but it was never going to be possible with her.



My BH and I seem to have that sort of dynamic as well. Now that I'm mostly over my own trauma, though, I'm eager to help him.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> My BH and I seem to have that sort of dynamic as well. Now that I'm mostly over my own trauma, though, I'm eager to help him.


Why, if he does not need it?

Just that nagging fear of that potential breakdown? Because of the books you have read?

Considering the specifics of your situation, are those books really the most helpful resources for you? Or are they just causing you to doubt your husband and be fearful?

Is that really healthy for your marriage?

If your husband is correct, and you are not one of the ones who needs to worry about a potential future breakdown, what could get you to trust him on that?


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> I don't know how to respond to this. People who have affairs and cheat are super selfish and there is no excuse to what they did. BUT my point is that doesn't mean she is a bad terrible person. She DID a bad and terrible thing.


What do we judge people on if not their actions? We all know words are easy.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

jld said:


> Why, if he does not need it?
> 
> Just that nagging fear of that potential breakdown? Because of the books you have read?


Pretty much, yes. I would not call it a "nagging fear", in the same sense of my other nagging fears. It's not like it keeps me up at night or constantly interrupts my thought processes like other things do.



jld said:


> Considering the specifics of your situation, are those books really the most helpful resources for you? Or are they just causing you to doubt your husband and be fearful?


It is possible that they're not, but those are the only resources that I know of, and they seem to be treated like gospel by the "surviving affairs" community. To not heed the only instruction manuals there are would be a bit foolish.



jld said:


> Is that really healthy for your marriage?


I wouldn't call it _un_healthy. I wouldn't call it healthy, either, but it's no more so unhealthy than when I have to practically sit on my husband to get him to stay in bed when he's ill. I like to nurture him, and will not shirk the opportunity if it arises. That is all it is.



jld said:


> If your husband is correct, and you are not one of the ones who needs to worry about a potential future breakdown, what could get you to trust him on that?


I don't _expect_ him to have a breakdown in the future, but I don't discount the idea. Based on what he's shown me, he really _is_ an extraordinarily resilient individual. But there's a chance. Just like there's a chance that he could develop a trauma-based disorder over his depressive college years, or over some event in his childhood, or almost anything, really. I don't count on it happening, but it's possible.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> Come on... no one is perfect. You act like perfection must be maintained to stay in a marriage.
> How many times have I read a man post about how he has neglected his wife over the years, or he was not emotionally available and now he all of a sudden feels bad Bc after years his wife decided to check out and ask for a divorce and what can I do to win her back.
> Can't people see the problem in this? Why is cheating the big thing that people can't get over. Sometimes a spouse gets neglected, and it's NOT ok, but sh*t happens. Sometimes a neglected spouse strays, and it's NOT ok, but sh*t happens. I know this is going to get a lot of disagreeing comments but SOMETIMES spouses cheat because they are neglected. That doesn't make it OK! But either does neglecting your spouse.
> 
> Marriage is not a laundry list of things you need to have to continue the relationship. Sex 5x a month, be a certain weight, have enough time together, be faithful, date night every week. If you fall out of those requirements then divorce. It doesn't work like that.


Cheating is outside the marriage by definition. There are problems in the marriage and can be addressed and should be addressed. Once you cheat your old marriage is now dead and there is no resurrection. If you stay together you have a different marriage, you, your spouse, and the other person or persons. This other person will be their forever. This is why they are two separate things and should be treated differently.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

katiecrna said:


> Come on... no one is perfect. You act like perfection must be maintained to stay in a marriage.
> How many times have I read a man post about how he has neglected his wife over the years, or he was not emotionally available and now he all of a sudden feels bad Bc after years his wife decided to check out and ask for a divorce and what can I do to win her back.
> Can't people see the problem in this? Why is cheating the big thing that people can't get over. Sometimes a spouse gets neglected, and it's NOT ok, but sh*t happens. Sometimes a neglected spouse strays, and it's NOT ok, but sh*t happens. I know this is going to get a lot of disagreeing comments but SOMETIMES spouses cheat because they are neglected. That doesn't make it OK! But either does neglecting your spouse.
> 
> Marriage is not a laundry list of things you need to have to continue the relationship. Sex 5x a month, be a certain weight, have enough time together, be faithful, date night every week. If you fall out of those requirements then divorce. It doesn't work like that.


You seem really hellbent on defending your friend no matter what. That either makes you a really good friend or a really bad friend. I suppose that time will tell.

Anyway, I'm not so dense that I refuse to acknowledge that a) marital infidelity is often a wayward's response to a less-than-idyllic marital environment and b) in many cases, the BS may very well be accountable for a greater share of the aforementioned marital dysfunction.

But I'm also not so naive that I'd write infidelity off as little more than a blip on the radar.

"Come on... no one is perfect."

"It was just a mistake!"

"Everyone makes mistakes!"

LOL.

There's a pretty wide berth between all that noise and the weeks, months, and (sometimes) even years of betrayal, lies, and (quite possibly) financial malfeasance that it takes to not only conduct but to conceal an affair (or affairs).

Either way, it's pretty hilarious for a wayward -- or wayward apologist -- to place any sort of blame for choosing to end a marriage in the face of an affair on a betrayed spouse.

That's like _intentionally_ overlooking a turkey at Thanksgiving and then blaming it on the person doing the cutting because he (or she) says, "Hey, this is overdone."

Also, I just realized that I've not yet weighed on in the question posed in the title of the thread...

Turns out I'd give both a WS and a BS the exact same advice:

"Get out."

Now, I get that not every affair is the same and all that noise, so I might change it up a bit based on circumstances to something like...

"Get out _now_."

...or...

"Get the f*ck out."

...or maybe even...

"Get the f*ck out _now_."

I am, after all, a pretty understanding guy.

:lol: :rofl:


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

I found an article written by a counselor who specializes in infidelity. She talks about grief over one's Affair partner, and the relationship doesn't have to be right or legitimate to experience that grief. The article further states that the only way to really have that "closure" that Wayward spouses early on always say they need is to go through the grief. To acknowledge that you will never see your Affair partner again, and that all those fantasies you may have had about them are not going to happen.

Letting Go of the Grief, Heartache and Discomfort - GoAskSuzie.com

Best. Article. Ever. And if I should ever publish my own article anywhere I'm hyper linking to that article under the "Grieve" section.


----------



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

sokillme said:


> What do we judge people on if not their actions? We all know words are easy.




Patterns.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

GusPolinski said:


> Turns out I'd give both a WS and a BS the exact same advice:
> 
> "Get out."
> 
> ...


You're all heart, Gus.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

katiecrna said:


> Patterns.


Months of lies and cheating exposes a pretty solid pattern.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> You're all heart, Gus.


LOL. Here we go again.

My stance on marriage, infidelity, forgiveness, divorce, reconciliation, etc, has nothing to do with "heart", and everything to do with seeing things for what they truly are.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I found an article written by a counselor who specializes in infidelity. She talks about grief over one's Affair partner, and the relationship doesn't have to be right or legitimate to experience that grief. The article further states that the only way to really have that "closure" that Wayward spouses early on always say they need is to go through the grief. To acknowledge that you will never see your Affair partner again, and that all those fantasies you may have had about them are not going to happen.
> 
> Letting Go of the Grief, Heartache and Discomfort - GoAskSuzie.com
> 
> Best. Article. Ever. And if I should ever publish my own article anywhere I'm hyper linking to that article under the "Grieve" section.


I find it abominable that anyone would think a cheater needs to go through the same process as someone whose loved one has died. This article is insulting to BS's everywhere.

_"Here are some clues that you’re dealing with grief:
You find yourself alternating between feelings of sadness and hopefulness.
One moment you’re crying, the next moment your heart feels numb and frozen.
You’re angry and, at the same time, you feel guilty and don’t want to let go.
You’re filled with insecurity, regret, shame, and remorse."_
These feelings don't describe grief. They describe the delusion that cheaters fool themselves with.

Cheaters don't need to GRIEVE the loss of their cheating. They need a slap in the face and to snap the hell out of it. They need to admit they fvcked up royally and then move on and smarten the hell up. The premise that ending an affair is such a huge loss is patently absurd. And if you DO think that way, you're doing it WRONG.

My favorite part:
_"I can suggest three options.
You can turn to your church or religious community to see what kind of guidance they can offer you in this area.
You can get private coaching from me via the phone or Skype.
You can download and listen to either one of the following audio coaching sessions: Dismantling Emotional Affairs or How to Break Free from the Affair"_ LOL


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

katiecrna said:


> Patterns.


That's just it cheaters do follow patterns. My x was a cheater in both her marriages and her relationships prior. 

When you look long enough at cheaters behavior you do see patterns. If not direct cheating you generally find the following : 
Inability to take criticism 
Comfortablness stretching the truth...the no big deal white lies
Weak boundrys
Gaslighting
Blameshifting


Because those patterns tend to repeat I think it's advisable to avoid


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> I find it abominable that anyone would think a cheater needs to go through the same process as someone whose loved one has died. This article is insulting to BS's everywhere.
> 
> _"Here are some clues that you’re dealing with grief:
> You find yourself alternating between feelings of sadness and hopefulness.
> ...


But it's really true! I've had friends who have been in more "stereotypical" affairs where they loved their AP more than they feared him/her, and let me tell you, the heartbreak is the same. Grief is grief is grief. A personal friend of mine cried over his AP the same way he cried over his (now-ex) girlfriend whom he cheated on. There is no distinguishing tears of anguish. In that moment when you're sobbing out all your agony, pain is not greater or lesser; it's just pain.

Again with what I said about it being uncomfortable on a deep level for those who have been betrayed to consider that their betrayers- their abusers- need empathy and care. It IS uncomfortable. But it's also true.

Your wayward spouse should _never_ come up to you and say, "I really miss my affair partner... my heart is broken." and start sobbing on your shoulder. No, that would be wildly inappropriate because you as the betrayed spouse are in more pain. But your wayward spouse still has to say it to someone- a friend, a therapist, himself. Because even if you take priority, and you do, your WS is still suffering, too.

Also, as an aside, allow me to quote another post of mine:



> It's astonishingly simple.
> 
> Did they break up with their affair partner? Yes? Well, that's a breakup. That's loss. They lost someone. Loss must be grieved. They need to grieve. End of story.
> 
> Did their spouse separate from them? Yes? Well, that's separation and possibly divorce. That's loss. They lost someone. Loss must be grieved. They need to grieve. End of story.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

*Re: What advice would you give to a wayward/betrayed spouse and*



Hope1964 said:


> *I find it abominable that anyone would think a cheater needs to go through the same process as someone whose loved one has died. This article is insulting to BS's everywhere.*
> 
> _"Here are some clues that you’re dealing with grief:
> You find yourself alternating between feelings of sadness and hopefulness.
> ...


i agree with you. Interestingly enough when I did go to counseling a year after divorce we did exactly follow bereavement counseling becuase that was the best way for me to transition the death of my marriage from her infidelity. That approach really did turn my life around and help me let go of a lot.

To suggest that a wayward needs that? They caused it lol makes no sense. When we look at counseling for domestic violence survivors and abusers an argument could be made that they both need counseling but no one else I know who is an expert in that field would suggest that the abuser should attend victim counseling. Accountability counseling is what they need and, least in this state, they are required to do


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

*Re: What advice would you give to a wayward/betrayed spouse and*



Wolf1974 said:


> To suggest that a wayward needs that? They caused it lol makes no sense.


Yes, they do need to grieve, and it does make sense. Nobody -except the truly demented- meets someone in a bar or at work or anywhere and says, _"If I go to bed with this person, it's going to make my spouse so miserable! My spouse will hate me and hate themselves and be mentally and emotionally destroyed! Muahahaha!!"_ It doesn't work like that. Cheaters, when they first make the choice to cheat, aren't thinking about how it would devastate their spouse. They aren't thinking about their spouse _at all_.

Therefore, when D-day comes, they honestly aren't prepared to lose their spouse. They aren't prepared to lose their affair partner. The loss is seemingly thrust upon them _even though_ they themselves set the ball rolling. Even though they started the affair, they never saw how it would end. Maybe, they never foresaw the affair ending at all. So yes, they need grief counseling. 

It's astonishingly simple.

Did they break up with their affair partner? Yes? Well, that's a breakup. That's loss. They lost someone. Loss must be grieved. They need to grieve. End of story.

Did their spouse separate from them? Yes? Well, that's separation and possibly divorce. That's loss. They lost someone. Loss must be grieved. They need to grieve. End of story.


----------



## OnTheRocks (Sep 26, 2011)

Princesses hate accountability.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

*Re: What advice would you give to a wayward/betrayed spouse and*



EllaSuaveterre said:


> Yes, they do need to grieve, and it does make sense. Nobody -except the truly demented- meets someone in a bar or at work or anywhere and says, _"If I go to bed with this person, it's going to make my spouse so miserable! My spouse will hate me and hate themselves and be mentally and emotionally destroyed! Muahahaha!!"_ It doesn't work like that. Cheaters, when they first make the choice to cheat, aren't thinking about how it would devastate their spouse. They aren't thinking about their spouse _at all_.
> 
> Therefore, when D-day comes, they honestly aren't prepared to lose their spouse. They aren't prepared to lose their affair partner. The loss is seemingly thrust upon them _even though_ they themselves set the ball rolling. Even though they started the affair, they never saw how it would end. Maybe, they never foresaw the affair ending at all. So yes, they need grief counseling.
> 
> ...


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

OnTheRocks said:


> Princesses hate accountability.


I'm unsure if you're referring specifically to me or what, but if you've read my story, you'll know that I hold myself 100% accountable for the parts of the affair that I initiated and/or consented to. My "relationship" with my AP wasn't fully consensual. There was quite a lot that I felt forced into doing, and he was abusive. But the other stuff? The times I flirted, the times I didn't tell him to stop, the times I chose to acquiesce to his demands rather than tell my husband when I felt violated and afraid... Yes, all that is 100% on me. I did that, and it was my fault. I have struggled with the guilt and conflicting emotion that comes with being both abused (by my AP) and the abuser (by cheating on my husband). I am both eager and able to comfort my BH, but he doesn't need comforting, and he's told me so.

How is it evil, selfish, or any other negative adjective to suggest that after what I have done, what I have felt, and what I have experienced, I might deserve to treat myself with compassionate honesty which both acknowledges my flaws and my wrongdoing while also soothing my soul and validating my pain? 

How is it bad to spread that idea, of gentle accountability and loving honesty and self-care, to other wayward spouses, who no doubt are struggling with the very same feelings of shame that I am?


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

*Re: What advice would you give to a wayward/betrayed spouse and*



EllaSuaveterre said:


> Yes, they do need to grieve, and it does make sense. Nobody -except the truly demented- meets someone in a bar or at work or anywhere and says, _"If I go to bed with this person, it's going to make my spouse so miserable! My spouse will hate me and hate themselves and be mentally and emotionally destroyed! Muahahaha!!"_ It doesn't work like that. Cheaters, when they first make the choice to cheat, aren't thinking about how it would devastate their spouse. They aren't thinking about their spouse _at all_.
> 
> Therefore, when D-day comes, they honestly aren't prepared to lose their spouse. They aren't prepared to lose their affair partner. The loss is seemingly thrust upon them _even though_ they themselves set the ball rolling. Even though they started the affair, they never saw how it would end. Maybe, they never foresaw the affair ending at all. So yes, they need grief counseling.
> 
> ...


I disagree that they don't think of their spouse. Unless in your scenario where they are in a happy marriage but a guys night out or girls night out with too much alcohol and a bad decision made that same night cheating is a drawn out process. 

Every bit of that process involves lies, deceit , manipulation to start the affair and continue the affair. Every day it goes on you lie to your spouse about where you are, who you're with, what your doing. How could you possibly do that day in day out and not think it's wrong. Or Maybe you just prove what many of us have said and known for a long time, that when it really comes down to it you don't care at all about them. What you do care about is what you want and you want first. Apparently that also carries into the reconciliation as well.

This sounds so much like the violent abuser who cries after hitting saying why did you make me do that. Of it hurt me as much as it hurt you, maybe more. Umm no it didn't. End of story


----------



## Davidmidwest (Nov 22, 2016)

You and your spouse get into marital therapy and read and listen to every John Gottman book and CD audio book together, do the exercises, Then go to one of there retreats. Only if you feel you can eventually forgive, but not forget. It can be overcome from what I read, but I never had that experience. I had betrayal of emotion along with the Gottman's explanation of the 
"Four Horseman of the Apocalypse." Read up on that-"Spoilers!": a quote by Dr. Who's Wife River Song.

Good luck


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

OnTheRocks said:


> Princesses hate accountability.


Cheaters hate accountability, Certainly not just a female thing. I have seen plenty of men come here and take the victim role for having an affair. That's just cheater speak 101 really. 

Rarely do you find the WS who comes and states. Hey this was all on me I ****ed this up.
Generally it's hey this was all on me I ****ed this up......but (insert excuse here)

As you say a struggle with accountability


----------



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

I don't think it was smart to post about this topic. You are going to offend a lot of people and likely not get much support. Your target audience is probably those that are WW. I can sometimes find sympathy with the adulterer but for some reason your attitude and referenced articles are a little off putting. It's almost like your proud to be an adulterer or something.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> I don't think it was smart to post about this topic. You are going to offend a lot of people and likely not get much support. Your target audience is probably those that are WW. I can sometimes find sympathy with the adulterer but for some reason your attitude and referenced articles are a little off putting. It's almost like your proud to be an adulterer or something.


Where on earth did you get the impression I was proud? Of course I'm not proud. I'm everything but proud. Have you read any of my other threads? I mean... I've struggled with shame for ages over the A. 

I'm human. Humans, even humans who make bad choices and ruin people's lives, deserve self-care and self-compassion. It has to be delivered in an honest way that doesn't make light of the horrible things they've done, but freedom from self-loathing is a basic human need.

How and why did this become such a controversial statement? Did I word it wrong or something? Did I imply that cheating wasn't bad? Because it's bad. Infidelity causes psychiatric disorders and can drive people to suicide. It's almost one of the worst things a human being can do to another human being. Did I imply that the WS's needs are more important than the BS's needs? Because they're not. It's still the WS's duty to comfort and heal their betrayed. It's their second duty to comfort and heal themselves. They still come in second place. And at the same time, everyone, even infidels, need to not be excessively cruel toward themselves. Is that so bad?

I've tried over and over and over again to explain that honest accountability can be gentle as well. I've tried over and over to say that people who do bad things can atone for those things whilst not hating themselves. How is that so wrong??


----------



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

I'm sorry if I am wrong. It just rubs me the wrong way. Like your husband is over it and you want to continue the conversation. This happened in 2014 right? It's like your trying to keep it alive.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

katiecrna said:


> I'm sorry if I am wrong. It just rubs me the wrong way. Like your husband is over it and you want to continue the conversation. This happened in 2014 right? It's like your trying to keep it alive.


I think she is still healing. Talking about her experience here is part of her healing.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Where on earth did you get the impression I was proud? Of course I'm not proud. I'm everything but proud. Have you read any of my other threads? I mean... I've struggled with shame for ages over the A.
> 
> I'm human. Humans, even humans who make bad choices and ruin people's lives, deserve self-care and self-compassion. It has to be delivered in an honest way that doesn't make light of the horrible things they've done, but freedom from self-loathing is a basic human need.
> 
> ...


Not so much this but that the cause of the affair, the WS, is just as much the victim of the affair as the BS. Not going to find a lot of people who agree with that and yes most will find it pretty offensive. Maybe you would have to experience that kinda betrayal to understand where many of us are coming from. 

Now just because people don't agree doesn't mean much. After all your husband forgave you and in the end that's all that matter. My x cheated we were done because her lies and self righteousness on being a victim wasn't going to work for me. If you feel you need counseling to get over your affair and your husband is all good with that then by all means. At the end of the day it's your relationship that matters correct?


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

jld said:


> I think she is still healing. Talking about her experience here is part of her healing.


Yes, this basically. I only admitted/realised that what happened was infidelity some 6 months or so ago. I don't really talk about it with my husband unless we're playing _The And_, or he wants to talk about it, or I just feel the need to offer an apology, which I only do every few weeks. I come here to sift through things That I don't want to bring up with my BH for fear of re-opening wounds.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Where on earth did you get the impression I was proud? Of course I'm not proud. I'm everything but proud. Have you read any of my other threads? I mean... I've struggled with shame for ages over the A.
> 
> I'm human. Humans, even humans who make bad choices and ruin people's lives, deserve self-care and self-compassion. It has to be delivered in an honest way that doesn't make light of the horrible things they've done, but freedom from self-loathing is a basic human need.
> 
> ...


I don't think you have said anything wrong. If anything, I think you have been reading materials that are not appropriate for your situation, like that MacDonald book. 

If you had a spouse that needed healing from your affair, that book might be helpful. But your spouse is fine. He is actually more concerned about your healing from your abuser. 

Do you see how, in light of your particular circumstances, that book could put unhelpful ideas into your head? Ideas that prolong your guilt and shame, instead of helping you better understand and be compassionate with yourself?


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Wolf1974 said:


> Not so much this but that the cause of the affair, the WS, is just as much the victim of the affair as the BS. Not going to find a lot of people who agree with that and yes most will find it pretty offensive. Maybe you would have to experience that kinda betrayal to understand where many of us are coming from.
> 
> Now just because people don't agree doesn't mean much. After all your husband forgave you and in the end that's all that matter. My x cheated we were done because her lies and self righteousness on being a victim wasn't going to work for me. If you feel you need counseling to get over your affair and your husband is all good with that then by all means. At the end of the day it's your relationship that matters correct?


Ahhh, I see. I wouldn't say in most cases that the cheater is "just as much" the victim; not at all. The BS is always the one who is hurt the worst. It's only that the WS is hurt some, too, and this fact seems oft overlooked on forums like these. 

But yes, my prince has indeed forgiven me, thank Gods. That should be all the relief I need, shouldn't it? Unfortunately I'm still sifting through all this... stuff.

And @jld, point absolutely noted. I wonder if they make a book for people in my very specific situation. Likely not.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Yes, this basically. I only admitted/realised that what happened was infidelity some 6 months or so ago. I don't really talk about it with my husband unless we're playing _The And_, or he wants to talk about it, or I just feel the need to offer an apology, which I only do every few weeks. I come here to sift through things That I don't want to bring up with my BH for fear of re-opening wounds.


I would trust him if I were you, Ella. He just does not seem like one to be easily hurt, or need any sort of protection from your feelings. 

Your transparency with him will build trust. He will know that you do not hide anything from him--not the good, the bad, or the ugly. He will know it all. That will help him understand you better.

I think it is very healthy for you to speak openly with us. Not everyone is going to agree with your point of view, and that's okay. We all learn from the variety of life experiences here on the forum. That is what the forum is for--a variety of views, not one "correct" one.

What happened six months ago that made you see your trauma as infidelity?


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Wolf1974 said:


> That's just it cheaters do follow patterns. My x was a cheater in both her marriages and her relationships prior.
> 
> When you look long enough at cheaters behavior you do see patterns. If not direct cheating you generally find the following :
> Inability to take criticism
> ...


The big one for me is they don't experience empathy the way you and I do. They sleep like babies, they rip their supposed love ones hearts out and then expect to be friends afterwords. The thing is I really think they are not capable of getting it, at least most of them. I mean why are they not embarrassed for instance. I would be humiliated to be such a person. They still know it's wrong though. Now I am talking about the long term affair type, not the drunken one night stand type. I just don't think they get it. It's not in their nature. But that is why it's not a good idea to take them back. It takes way too long for them to get it, even if they really try to work hard. They are just a giant time sink.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Ahhh, I see. I wouldn't say in most cases that the cheater is "just as much" the victim; not at all. The BS is always the one who is hurt the worst. It's only that the WS is hurt some, too, and this fact seems oft overlooked on forums like these.
> 
> But yes, my prince has indeed forgiven me, thank Gods. That should be all the relief I need, shouldn't it? Unfortunately I'm still sifting through all this... stuff.
> 
> And @jld, point absolutely noted. I wonder if they make a book for people in my very specific situation. Likely not.


I am going to look. In the meantime, be sure to read critical reviews of the books recommended to you. Authors often have a bias. It is important to take that into consideration before accepting their advice whole.

And Ella, realize that your willingness to share so honestly and openly here may be the beginning of helpful literature for people in your situation. My goodness, if a young man with your physical and emotional vulnerabilities came here and told how a woman over twice his age manipulated him and threatened to kill him, any infidelity on his part would not be the first concern of any reasonable person. It would be getting him away from that abuser!

I am so sorry for what happened to you. I know your husband is, too. I really think he would be the very best person you could talk to about this. 

Again, please do not fear being completely open, honest, and vulnerable to him. I truly believe it is the healthiest thing you could do.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

jld said:


> What happened six months ago that made you see your trauma as infidelity?


Nothing, quite exactly at that time. It's just that when I first got out of the hospital way back when, some friends of my mother's said something like, "Dear God woman, you cheated on your husband?! How could you??" and then some friends of mine- not my friends anymore, for unrelated reasons- said the same thing. It used to make me defensive and furious. Like, could they not see that I didn't want what happened to me to happen? 

And yet, as I began to get over the nightmares and flashbacks, and have them with less frequency (about 6 months ago or so) I began to ponder what made me so defensive. Why did I feel the need to protect myself from these statements? I recalled confessing to a close friend, sometime before the OM issued the plane ticket, that I was falling for this OM. I burst into tears as I said it. I remember I once told the OM, "I love you." He said, "I know" and that's when things started going very much downhill with the manipulation and gaslighting. My journal entries from the time I was hospitalized clearly state that I was upset to discover that my marriage was ending, but that I loved the OM. (Even though I was literally fearing for my life two days before I wrote that. WTF?)

So, yes... I had feelings for the OM. I wore a ring he made me purchase as an outward sign of those feelings. My feelings for him were the primary reason I was conflicted and able to be coerced into doing and saying things I didn't want to do. So... it was an affair. And as of 6 months ago, I'm less terrified of him and am more able to come to terms with that.


----------



## OnTheRocks (Sep 26, 2011)

Wolf1974 said:


> Cheaters hate accountability, Certainly not just a female thing. I have seen plenty of men come here and take the victim role for having an affair. That's just cheater speak 101 really.
> 
> Rarely do you find the WS who comes and states. Hey this was all on me I ****ed this up.
> Generally it's hey this was all on me I ****ed this up......but (insert excuse here)
> ...


Good point, my bad. Princes and other narcissistic tyrants hate accountability, too.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Nothing, quite exactly at that time. It's just that when I first got out of the hospital way back when, some friends of my mother's said something like, "Dear God woman, you cheated on your husband?! How could you??" and then some friends of mine- not my friends anymore, for unrelated reasons- said the same thing. It used to make me defensive and furious. Like, could they not see that I didn't want what happened to me to happen?
> 
> And yet, as I began to get over the nightmares and flashbacks, and have them with less frequency (about 6 months ago or so) I began to ponder what made me so defensive. Why did I feel the need to protect myself from these statements? I recalled confessing to a close friend, sometime before the OM issued the plane ticket, that I was falling for this OM. I burst into tears as I said it. I remember I once told the OM, "I love you." He said, "I know" and that's when things started going very much downhill with the manipulation and gaslighting. My journal entries from the time I was hospitalized clearly state that I was upset to discover that my marriage was ending, but that I loved the OM. (Even though I was literally fearing for my life two days before I wrote that. WTF?)
> 
> So, yes... I had feelings for the OM. I wore a ring he made me purchase as an outward sign of those feelings. My feelings for him were the primary reason I was conflicted and able to be coerced into doing and saying things I didn't want to do. So... it was an affair. And as of 6 months ago, I'm less terrified of him and am more able to come to terms with that.


Oh, Ella. This is all so sad. 

I am so sorry you were treated this way by people who should have known better. And so glad that you are healing from the trauma.

I know I mentioned it on your other thread, but I would like to suggest it again: I think it would be very, very helpful for you to write your experience, beginning to end. Other people could learn a lot from your heartfelt sharing. And it would certainly be a fascinating read. I think a movie could even be made about it.

But most importantly, as you are in a much safer position now to relive it, it could be healing and empowering for you. You could see the manipulations foisted upon you by that man. (If the filters were not in place, I would use a more colorful word!)

Ella, you were a victim of a terrible manipulator. You were no match for an experienced abuser. Your husband surely sees that, and probably feels bad that he was not able to have prevented it. If anything, he may have his own guilt and shame that you could help relieve. Have you two ever discussed that?

Those materials recommended on infidelity websites are not meant for you. Books on the sexual and emotional abuse of vulnerable people (like children), and how to heal from it, might be the most helpful for you.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> But it's really true! I've had friends who have been in more "stereotypical" affairs where they loved their AP more than they feared him/her, and let me tell you, the heartbreak is the same. Grief is grief is grief. A personal friend of mine cried over his AP the same way he cried over his (now-ex) girlfriend whom he cheated on. There is no distinguishing tears of anguish. In that moment when you're sobbing out all your agony, pain is not greater or lesser; it's just pain.


I completely agree, and this is why you should stay as far away from these people as possible. The fact that they could go that far down the rabbit hole as to have the same kind of feelings over someone whom they "commit the crime" with just shows how morally bankrupt they are. It shows how little grief and shame they feel. It's really scary stuff with you think about it. 

And sadly Ella you don't get this. You just don't. I know that you are sorry for what you did, and you are trying to make amends and I think that is honorable, but if you really got the depths of how this affect a BS you wouldn't be able to write the article. Thing is I think the fact that you don't get it allowed you to do it. I think this is a pretty accurate statement about all cheaters. Again most of us B people see it like emotional rape, or close to it.

That is not hyperbole, I felt completely degraded, like my love and loyalty was worth nothing, like all my effort was used and then discarded like trash. My whole sense of my would and reality was set on it's head. It took a few years to get over that. To be back to the person I was, and like I have said before I lost the innocent love that I once had forever. Romance has always felt a lot more risky. That is what this person took from me. 

Sorry but we don't feel the slightest bit of sympathy for the people who do that, they don't deserve it. Actually suffering will be good for them, it will get them in touch with their humanity, something they lack. I am sure I am not the only one who feels this way. 

For them the affair partner is just another person they fell in love with an lost. Not someone they committed an horrible act with. Not someone who helped them destroy another person with. Not someone whom in there wilfulness helped them they damage another whole human being with. Just another lost love, another what could have been. Everyone here defending the cheaters just continues to prove my point. I don't blame you, I just don't think you have the ability to get it. 

Again why I say it over and over again. That is why I say it's not worth the emotional effort. It's a totally different thought process. Trying to get someone who could do such a heinous thing and then grieve over the person they did it with, to see that it was a heinous thing is a waste of time an effort. It's emotional suicide.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

@jld: I'll see what I can do to the end of an autobiographical post. Gosh, that would take days to write and a few more days to organize. Somehow It's far more confronting to put it all together than it is to retell relevant parts as they come up. still, I'll consider it. Figure out how to look at it all at once.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> @jld: I'll see what I can do to the end of an autobiographical post. Gosh, that would take days to write and a few more days to organize. Somehow It's far more confronting to put it all together than it is to retell relevant parts as they come up. still, I'll consider it. Figure out how to look at it all at once.


I would not recommend writing a post, Ella. I would write an actual book if I were you. It may end up being a short book, but you have enough material for a book.

Plus, you are a writing major, right? This is perfect for you.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

jld said:


> I would not recommend writing a post, Ella. I would write an actual book if I were you. It may end up being a short book, but you have enough material for a book.
> 
> Plus, you are a writing major, right? This is perfect for you.


Wow... I mean, would anyone read it? There are so many abuse stories, most worse than mine. Maybe few to none with the abuser being the person's affair partner, but then the reactions would probably be similar to what I've had on here. Could I handle a _literary critic_ calling me an entitled, selfish, clueless, spoiled baby? On top of- probably- criticizing my writing style?


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

*Re: What advice would you give to a wayward/betrayed spouse and*



EllaSuaveterre said:


> Yes, they do need to grieve, and it does make sense. Nobody -except the truly demented- meets someone in a bar or at work or anywhere and says, _"If I go to bed with this person, it's going to make my spouse so miserable! My spouse will hate me and hate themselves and be mentally and emotionally destroyed! Muahahaha!!"_ It doesn't work like that. Cheaters, when they first make the choice to cheat, aren't thinking about how it would devastate their spouse. They aren't thinking about their spouse _at all_.



I agree and this is kind of my argument all the time on here, but my question to you is then why should anyone want to be in a relationship with someone who thinks this way? Why is this a healthy idea to continue in any kind of relationship with a person like that? Are they not a terrible emotional danger to anyone who chooses to commit to them, when they can be so cavalier with their spouses emotional health. When they truly don't even get the fact that their actions have tremendous affects on their SO emotional health? Most of us when we get married or commit to one another understand the great weight we do this with. Essentially our SO are putting their lives in our hands. 

Look if I had a friend who had a gun and just started pointing it and shooting all the time, would you say it's a good idea for me to go hang out with that person, or would you say I should stay far away from that person.

The thought process you have described is akin to taking an emotional gun and shooting it indiscriminately. Again this is what I mean when I get on about being less emotionally less evolved. There are plenty of people who know that emotional guys can kill people so we take the gun and lock it in the safe. 

Ella I fully agree with you I really believe that many cheaters don't get it. Intellectually they know it is morally wrong, but they don't emotionally get it. If they did there actions would have them doubled over, but before that it would have stopped them before it ever got to that point. Unless they are just evil, there are some people like this as well. 

But that is just it, being caught really doesn't help them get it either, apologizing doesn't help them get it. They don't have it in them to get it. It is not in their nature. That is always my point. Your thread, the WW section on SI, all of Loveshake continually proves my point. 

I see it like this, I read an article from an autistic person (my mother works as a teacher with people on the spectrum). Basically the book was about how he always had trouble with people but then he learned that they were different and that he didn't interpret social cues correctly. This explained all his relationship problems in his life. Eventually he symptomatically learned to fake smile when he saw peoples eye's scrunch. He learned to act interested in small talk even though to him it was a colossal waste of time. He just basically faked it, but none of the actions were done out of any warmth or compassion. It was just an elaborate dance. I admire him for the effort, but I am not it was possible to be emotionally close with him. I don't think he has it in him. 

I believe that many WW who have R are basically doing the same thing. I believe that because of all the stuff I have read from WW, consistently there posts show how foreign there BS pain is to them. Even when they think they get it, they really don't. They almost always write about themselves and their own pain, they are the center of their own universe.

Gently because I honestly believe the you only mean well with your article, but gently I think some of the stuff in it points to this kind of thinking.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Wow... I mean, would anyone read it? There are so many abuse stories, most worse than mine. Maybe few to none with the abuser being the person's affair partner, but then the reactions would probably be similar to what I've had on here. Could I handle a _literary critic_ calling me an entitled, selfish, clueless, spoiled baby? On top of- probably- criticizing my writing style?


I think a lot of people would read it. My gosh, the Greek god aspect alone would draw interest.

Sure, it might be controversial. Nothing wrong with making people reconsider their prejudices. All good literature does that. 

Ella, this is very interesting writing material. Please give it serious consideration.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Ella, did you ever read _The Lovely Bones_? I read once that the author had survived a rape, and could have died from the beating that accompanied it. 

But when she tried to talk about it to people, they shied away. Some may have even blamed her for what happened. 

She decided that telling a fictional story, using some elements of her experience, might be a way to communicate her trauma with people without its being so threatening to them. It made it less scary for them, but still got them thinking. 

Just something to consider.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Ella I think you would do good to try to separate your abuse from the infidelity. I think the fact that you conflate the two has hindered you in you healing and growth. You need to attack them as two separate things. I see you always put the two together, but they really are not the same. One was done to you and the other was perpetrated by you. I think if you make the distinction it will help you heal. 

You are allowed and it is right to feel pain from the abuse you suffered. You should feel grief and sorrow, you shouldn't feel guilt about it though. No one has a right to abuse anyone. You were taken great advantage of. 

Now the hard part. You have to acknowledge that you are capable of doing a great wrong to the person who loves you, a person who unselfishly give himself to you. To put it in words you would understand, your knight in shining armor. You did that. In that sense now it not the time to grieve your mistake, now is the time to do better. It is healthy to feel guilty about that. To fight to never do that again. To make right a great wrong.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

@sokillme, I don't know why anyone would want to be in a relationship with someone who thinks this way. If you knew him personally, I would ask you to ask my husband. 

You're right that I don't understand what it feels like to know that one's heart is worthless to the person to whom you gave it. I've been through breakups before I got married, and I have lost very close friendships with friends who ended up making me feel discarded and used. According to my psychologist I have a disorder which makes me process the most trivial of interpersonal slights as the deepest of betrayals. I have been suicidal over the loss of an ordinary friendship. I therefore _believe_ I know what being betrayed feels like. 

But since you, who has actually been on the receiving end of infidelity, say that I don't know, I must take you at your word. Since you're the one who's been through it, you have the authority here.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Ella I think you would do good to try to separate your abuse from the infidelity. I think the fact that you conflate the two has hindered you in you healing and growth. You need to attack them as two separate things. I see you always put the two together, but they really are not the same. One was done to you and the other was perpetrated by you. I think if you make the distinction it will help you heal.
> 
> You are allowed and it is right to feel pain from the abuse you suffered. You should feel grief and sorrow, you shouldn't feel guilt about it though. No one has a right to abuse anyone. You were taken great advantage of.
> 
> Now the hard part. You have to acknowledge that you are capable of doing a great wrong to the person who loves you, a person who unselfishly give himself to you. To put it in words you would understand, your knight in shining armor. You did that. In that sense now it not the time to grieve your mistake, now is the time to do better. It is healthy to feel guilty about that. To fight to never do that again. To make right a great wrong.


I do feel guilty about my infidelity. It hurts me greatly to think that I, who idolized destiny and true love, could emotionally murder my Prince Charming. It'a humbling that he never for a second hated me for it.

I wish I knew how to separate the two. I don't know how, because my abuser and my affair partner were the very same person. The limerent feelings that made up my infidelity often happened at literally the same moment that the abuse happened. The very same second he was calling me worthless and a waste of his time, I was pining after him and wondering if he would make my life better if I could only figure out how to not disappoint him. It all literally happened at the very same time. It was the same events, the same actions, the same person. How do you separate that?


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> @sokillme, I don't know why anyone would want to be in a relationship with someone who thinks this way. If you knew him personally, I would ask you to ask my husband.
> 
> You're right that I don't understand what it feels like to know that one's heart is worthless to the person to whom you gave it. I've been through breakups before I got married, and I have lost very close friendships with friends who ended up making me feel discarded and used. According to my psychologist I have a disorder which makes me process the most trivial of interpersonal slights as the deepest of betrayals. I have been suicidal over the loss of an ordinary friendship. I therefore _believe_ I know what being betrayed feels like.
> 
> But since you, who has actually been on the receiving end of infidelity, say that I don't know, I must take you at your word. Since you're the one who's been through it, you have the authority here.


This is why people react so strongly. In a very real sense people who have been cheated on have also been terribly abused so when they read a WS write that the abuser needs to take time for themselves and grieve, of course they are going to get angry. Again I can only emphasize it by saying except for a violent event in my life (I have written about it here before), it was one of the defining moment of my life in a lot of ways. It was much worse then my father leaving at 7. I think you are going to find most people whether they stay it or not have very little sympathy for the cheater.

Anyway I have no doubt you heart is in the right place, I just don't think you get the depths of betrayal. I also think your husband obviously doesn't feel it like this, so from your experience it isn't as bad as it has been for some of us. 

Anyway I feel like I am being harsh on you, and because I know your heart is in the right place I don't want to be.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I do feel guilty about my infidelity. It hurts me greatly to think that I, who idolized destiny and true love, could emotionally murder my Prince Charming. It'a humbling that he never for a second hated me for it.
> 
> I wish I knew how to separate the two. I don't know how, because my abuser and my affair partner were the very same person. The limerent feelings that made up my infidelity often happened at literally the same moment that the abuse happened. The very same second he was calling me worthless and a waste of his time, I was pining after him and wondering if he would make my life better if I could only figure out how to not disappoint him. It all literally happened at the very same time. It was the same events, the same actions, the same person. How do you separate that?


We have discussed this before, the point of cheating is not at the point where you and your affair partner emotionally consummate, it's at the point where in your heart you know that what you are doing would hurt your spouse and you do it anyway. This happens way before the limerent feeling. I do not believe that there was never a point in your mind where you didn't know that what you were doing was wrong, even just on an intellectual level. How would your husband feel know if you were flirting with someone? How would you feel if he was? How would you have felt before this happened and he was flirting with someone?


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> @sokillme, I don't know why anyone would want to be in a relationship with someone who thinks this way. If you knew him personally, I would ask you to ask my husband.


I have never thought you feel this way. If I did I would have a very different tact on this post. I think your friend thinks this way. I wonder why you are friends with someone who thinks that way after everything you have gone through, after all the damage you have seen it's done.

The reason I don't think you think that way is because to your credit you continue to post on here looking for answers. I believe you will eventually get it. You do not lack in introspection, which I think is a quality that most cheaters lack completely.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

sokillme said:


> This is why people react so strongly. In a very real sense people who have been cheated on have also been terribly abused so when they read a WS write that the abuser needs to take time for themselves and grieve, of course they are going to get angry.


I've thought about that. If someone told me my abuser needed to take time for himself and grieve his own losses- and someone did, a friend of a friend of his on facebook- I'd want to deck them. It's utterly natural for people to believe abusive people never deserve any sympathy or happiness. Yet, as you say, having been both the abused and the abuser, I must accept that even people like the OM need self-care. I must accept that because self-care and self-compassion are things I want for myself, and I would be a hypocrite if I denied those things to the people who hurt me, yet permitted it for myself.



sokillme said:


> Anyway I feel like I am being harsh on you, and because I know your heart is in the right place I don't want to be.


Nah. You've been one of the _least_ hurtful people on here.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

sokillme said:


> I have never thought you feel this way. If I did I would have a very different tact on this post. I think your friend thinks this way. I wonder why you are friends with someone who thinks that way after everything you have gone through, after all the damage you have seen it's done.
> 
> The reason I don't think you think that way is because to your credit you continue to post on here looking for answers. I believe you will eventually get it. You do not lack in introspection, which I think is a quality that most cheaters lack completely.


My friend was crying on my shoulder several months before I confronted my own affair, and thus several months before I began to read and try to comprehend what affairs are and what they do to people. I truly believed that affairs were the result of meeting the right person after you'd married the wrong person- that they were, as the soap operas and novels portray, an alignment of the stars. I did not know, as I know now, that you can fall in love and have feelings for literally anyone, and that having romantic/limerent feelings about someone doesn't make them your soul mate.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Well since you have basically taken everything I have said so far I want to point out one more thing. This is something I notice a lot when you talk about your situation. your qoute -



EllaSuaveterre said:


> I do feel guilty about my infidelity. *It hurts me greatly* to think that I, who idolized destiny and true love, could emotionally murder my Prince Charming. It'a humbling that he never for a second hated me for it.


respectfully guilt really should have nothing to do with pain YOU feel. The two don't go together, if you felt the full depths of guilt for what you did your own feelings wouldn't be a part of that equation. 

I am sorry Ella but if you read this sentence you took your infidelity and framed the whole thing around yourself. I read that like, I can't believe I ruined my fairy tale. Again the subject of this sentence is you. 

Now maybe I lead you to that with the Prince Charming comment, but the idea was to get you to think about Prince Charming, you know the one who kills the Dragon/Maleficent and wins sleeping beauty hand. Then in a few years she stabs him in the the heart. At this point you should be thinking about Prince Charming, not about how painful the aftermath would have been for Sleeping Beauty. 

I would expect you to write I can't believe I killed prince charming, that was me, I did that. God (or in your case gods and goddesses >) how painful that must have been for him.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I did not know, as I know now, that you can fall in love and have feelings for literally anyone, and that having romantic/limerent feelings about someone doesn't make them your soul mate.


 If you don't have proper boundaries.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

sokillme said:


> respectfully guilt really should have nothing to do with pain YOU feel. The two don't go together, if you felt the full depths of guilt for what you did your own feelings wouldn't be a part of that equation.
> 
> I am sorry Ella but if you read this sentence you took your infidelity and framed the whole thing around yourself. I read that like, I can't believe I ruined my fairy tale. Again the subject of this sentence is you.
> 
> I would expect you to write I can't believe I killed prince charming, that was me, I did that. God how painful that must have been for him.


I puzzled for a little while over how to answer this. How is one supposed to show that they feel remorse without mentioning oneself? Without the aspect of how seeing his pain made me feel, it would sound like I'm merely describing it, omitting that it in any way affected me, which in my mind sounds a little sociopathic. When I let him read my diary in the hospital, my confession that I thought I loved this man, he had tears in his eyes and refused to sleep in our apartment until I came home. It was the only time I'd ever seen him cry aside from our wedding day, and must have surely been one of the most painful moments in his life. If I were to tell you that _without_ describing the pit in my stomach that I feel when recalling it, you may or may not be able to gather that I felt bad about that. For what little information I'd given you, you could have deduced that I _enjoyed_ it like some kind of sick monster. 

Also, there's the aspect that, apart from that moment in the hospital, and maybe one other moment after that I recall, he was never demolished inside as one would expect. He was no more stoic than usual. Except for the one time, he never cried. He never (to my knowledge) withdrew. He never lashed out. He never said, "*You ruined my life! How could you do this to me??"* Obviously, I probably did ruin his life for a while, whether he ever said it or not. While I acknowledge that there's a huge possibility that I missed all of his healing because I was too wrapped up in recovering from the abuse, I would be more inclined to believe that I ruined his life permanently if he actually showed signs of being more permanently hurt. 

Even so, I try to proactively soothe him, giving him abundant hugs and kisses and telling him how much I love him and I'm proud of him and I'm sorry for what I'd done and I appreciate his not giving up on us. But I would have given him hugs and compliments anyway. How does one soothe a hurt that never surfaces, and that by all appearances may not even be there?


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I puzzled for a little while over how to answer this. How is one supposed to show that they feel remorse without mentioning oneself? Without the aspect of how seeing his pain made me feel, it would sound like I'm merely describing it, omitting that it in any way affected me, which in my mind sounds a little sociopathic. When I let him read my diary in the hospital, my confession that I thought I loved this man, he had tears in his eyes and refused to sleep in our apartment until I came home. It was the only time I'd ever seen him cry aside from our wedding day, and must have surely been one of the most painful moments in his life. If I were to tell you that _without_ describing the pit in my stomach that I feel when recalling it, you may or may not be able to gather that I felt bad about that. For what little information I'd given you, you could have deduced that I _enjoyed_ it like some kind of sick monster.
> 
> Also, there's the aspect that, apart from that moment in the hospital, and maybe one other moment after that I recall, he was never demolished inside as one would expect. He was no more stoic than usual. Except for the one time, he never cried. He never (to my knowledge) withdrew. He never lashed out. He never said, "*You ruined my life! How could you do this to me??"* Obviously, I probably did ruin his life for a while, whether he ever said it or not. While I acknowledge that there's a huge possibility that I missed all of his healing because I was too wrapped up in recovering from the abuse, I would be more inclined to believe that I ruined his life permanently if he actually showed signs of being more permanently hurt.
> 
> Even so, I try to proactively soothe him, giving him abundant hugs and kisses and telling him how much I love him and I'm proud of him and I'm sorry for what I'd done and I appreciate his not giving up on us. But I would have given him hugs and compliments anyway. How does one soothe a hurt that never surfaces, and that by all appearances may not even be there?


Ella, would you say your husband enjoys giving more than receiving?

If so, one way you could meet his need to give would be to let him know how he could help you, if you have some ideas on that.

I say this because my husband is much more of a giver than a receiver. He just does not have many needs, and almost none that he is not happy to satisfy himself. But for him, it is a great pleasure to help others. Much more enjoyable than trying to think of something others can do for him.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

jld said:


> Ella, would you say your husband enjoys giving more than receiving?
> 
> If so, one way you could meet his need to give would be to let him know how he could help you, if you have some ideas on that.


I just wanted to thank you for your gentleness with me. I very dearly appreciate it. I'm getting a little better at telling my husband when I need something from him- something like cuddles or soft words or a cup of tea. He seems to like doing those things for me.


----------



## ShatteredStill (Dec 20, 2016)

The wicked witch didn't have to cast a magic spell on my Prince Charming. He willingly spent so much time in her company that he CHOSE to cast the spell on himself. He changed our beautiful romantic love story into some harsh, modern, complex Tarantinoesc tragedy that I would NEVER of chosen to live in. 

My Prince Charming appealed to the gentler nature of his princess asking her to throw an elaborate ball to cheer-up the wicked witch on her birthday. He made his princess invite the witch into their castle so HE could enjoy the witches company. He created a situation in which the evil one could defile our wedding album, the remembrance of our love by spilling her wine over it!

The Prince Charming became dark, brooding & cruel under HIS OWN spell. He turned on the princess & shattered her into a million pieces. His betrayal forever changed the princess. She now lives with a darkness in her heart. Her body has aged & weakened. The mirror now reflects his words. She is no longer the fairest. She is a withered hag who feels bloody stupid for ever believing in ridiculous stupid fairy tales!!


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

ShatteredStill said:


> The wicked witch didn't have to cast a magic spell on my Prince Charming. He willingly spent so much time in her company that he CHOSE to cast the spell on himself. He changed our beautiful romantic love story into some harsh, modern, complex Tarantinoesc tragedy that I would NEVER of chosen to live in.
> 
> My Prince Charming appealed to the gentler nature of his princess asking her to throw an elaborate ball to cheer-up the wicked witch on her birthday. He made his princess invite the witch into their castle so HE could enjoy the witches company. He created a situation in which the evil one could defile our wedding album, the remembrance of our love by spilling her wine over it!
> 
> The Prince Charming became dark, brooding & cruel under HIS OWN spell. He turned on the princess & shattered her into a million pieces. His betrayal forever changed the princess. She now lives with a darkness in her heart. Her body has aged & weakened. The mirror now reflects his words. She is no longer the fairest. She is a withered hag who feels bloody stupid for ever believing in ridiculous stupid fairy tales!!


I'm so, so sorry. That's not supposed to happen to good people. If you really were soulmates, you were supposed to stay together forever. From the way you talk about him I don't assume you're going to reconcile? If you are, your pain is an opportunity for you both to bond again over his comforting you. But if you're not...

There's only one thing I can suggest. Perhaps if you wanted to turn the story back in your favor, you could find someone else. Start dressing up again, find a new Prince Charming, use your painful tragedy as the backstory through which someone better falls in love with you. 

Or maybe think of yourself as a widow. After all, the man you knew did die, in a sense. Depending on what you read, widowhood can be made far more romantic than being betrayed. 

And _then_ use your tragedy as the backstory through which someone better falls in love with you. It's the best and only thing I have to suggest.

Oh, and another thing. I'm sure you're not actually ugly compared to what you looked like pre-affair. It might be a combination of stress giving you slightly more wrinkles, and your self-esteem being shattered, but I'm sure you're not an old hag. Besides, a few trips to the spa will fix those wrinkles.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

OK, so I am coming at this from the perspective of the BS who HAS taken the WS back, and believes that he IS truly remorseful, and that he is and has done everything humanly possible to make amends for what he did. We are almost 7 years past D day. We have done a sh1t ton of work on our relationship, and he's done a sh1t ton of work on himself.



EllaSuaveterre said:


> Again with what I said about it being uncomfortable on a deep level for those who have been betrayed to consider that their betrayers- their abusers- need empathy and care. It IS uncomfortable. But it's also true.


It may be true, but until he's proven to me that he DESERVES empathy and care he'd better shut the hell up about it. *I* will decide if and when I am ready to care about that. And if he has ANY inkling of us staying together, he will keep any such thoughts to himself forever, or until *I* give him permission to express them. And that's gonna be YEARS in the future. (speaking for myself and hubby, we've been at this point for a couple of years now. He can talk about his own hurt and I don't feel like throwing an axe at his head)



EllaSuaveterre said:


> Your wayward spouse should _never_ come up to you and say, "I really miss my affair partner... my heart is broken." and start sobbing on your shoulder. No, that would be wildly inappropriate because you as the betrayed spouse are in more pain. But your wayward spouse still has to say it to someone- a friend, a therapist, himself. Because even if you take priority, and you do, your WS is still suffering, too.


 So what?? Does anyone really think I give a crap if he feels that way? If he wants to go to a counselor and talk about it, great, but it had better never get back to me. And just the fact ANY WS would even THINK this way before they've become a totally different and better person stupefies me. Suffering?? Bullpuckysh1t. Before they can even THINK they're suffering they'd better have put themselves through the fire and come out the other side reborn.

I really do not think that this forum is the right venue for you to be going through this process so openly. You're opening up wounds in people that you really have no business opening up, and you're providing the perfect arena for WS's who AREN'T truly remorseful to go to the BS and say the very things you're saying they SHOULDN'T.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> OK, so I am coming at this from the perspective of the BS who HAS taken the WS back, and believes that he IS truly remorseful, and that he is and has done everything humanly possible to make amends for what he did. We are almost 7 years past D day. We have done a sh1t ton of work on our relationship, and he's done a sh1t ton of work on himself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I struggle to find the right reply that won't further open wounds, as you say. I say this with every sensitivity and with all the gentleness and compassion I posess. You do indeed get to decide whether and when he talks to you about his own pain, but you do _not_ get to decide whether and when he talks to his friends or his therapist or himself or anyone else about his pain. People do have autonomy. I'm glad we agree on that point. TAM is a wonderful venue for me, for expressing my thoughts and opinions, and for retelling my story. I've met many caring people here, waywards and betrayed alike, who have helped me process and frame the events of my life in proper perspective.

With all respect, I don't see how my posts could encourage a wayward spouse to go to their betrayed with their grief when I have specifically stated several times that it's a bad idea. If what you're concerned about is that a Betrayed Spouse might see a Wayward Spouse (but not _their_ Wayward Spouse) talking about their frustrations, anger, confusion, and grief... well, that's certainly a risk. Betrayed spouses can be (very understandably) easily triggered or offended by any Wayward's expression of pain. I would advise such Betrayed Spouses to use all proper caution on threads written by wayward spouses, and to look away or give themselves a break if they see something that makes them too upset.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I just wanted to thank you for your gentleness with me. I very dearly appreciate it. I'm getting a little better at telling my husband when I need something from him- something like cuddles or soft words or a cup of tea. He seems to like doing those things for me.


My pleasure, Ella. You are bringing up very interesting points for reflection in this discussion.

Have you read about "disenfranchised grief"? I came across this term the other day, and it is what you were describing, I believe. It is defined as socially unacceptable grief. Yet it is genuine grief, none the less.

Someone made the comment here some time back that an affair, however illicit, is still a relationship. And when a relationship ends, it is not unusual for there to be a sense of loss. If sincere feelings were involved, it might be very surprising, perhaps even concerning, if there were *not* a sense of loss.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I read this testimony recently, and was moved by the maturity and compassion of this betrayed husband: The Betrayed Spouse's Role After an Affair - Marriage AdvocatesMarriage Advocates


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

in legal circles, one might say "if you don't want to do the time, don't do the crime."

If my (future) husband had (openly) mourned the loss of his "friend", we would not have stayed together. I would wonder:

1. how much energy would he extinguish trying to get another chance with her
2. how much drama does he need to be able to feel "alive"
3. would he ever care about how I feel.

Ella, consider yourself lucky that your guy has wanted to stick around. Reconciliation is rare enough.... as it should be.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

jld said:


> I read this testimony recently, and was moved by the maturity and compassion of this betrayed husband: The Betrayed Spouse's Role After an Affair - Marriage AdvocatesMarriage Advocates


Awesome, awesome article and a flawless examination of how to keep both parties in mind.


----------



## OnTheRocks (Sep 26, 2011)

You two should get a room. LOL


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

jld said:


> I read this testimony recently, and was moved by the maturity and compassion of this betrayed husband: The Betrayed Spouse's Role After an Affair - Marriage AdvocatesMarriage Advocates


I bet he is cheated on again within 10 years. > I hope he has the guts to write the follow up.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

sokillme said:


> I bet he is cheated on again within 10 years. > I hope he has the guts to write the follow up.


I think their chances of having a lasting, meaningful marriage are much greater than if he had followed the "standard" post-affair advice given here.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

jld said:


> I think their chances of having a lasting, meaningful marriage are much greater than if he had followed the "standard" post-affair advice given here.


I have no doubt you do.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

sokillme said:


> I have no doubt you do.


Since you disagree, why not tell us why? The betrayed husband in this article put himself first. He made a plan to divorce and got his things in order in case that's what happened. He explained to her that he had PTSD and was going to need certain considerations from her when she was triggering. He set a date and decided he would divorce if she didn't end the affair and meet whatever his requirements were for recovery by then.

I've had a second read-through though, and I do see a few major problems in that he didn't ask for a timeline and thus didn't have closure, but maybe he's the sort that doesn't want or need the details. There was also the issue that he didn't tell her about his pain. That's quite wrong, I think. Both parties need to talk about their feelings. Especially after he explained that he had PTSD and was having triggers, she should have made it her goal to help him through them.

But aside from that- though they are glaring issues- at least he took the time to fix what caused the rift in the relationship pre-affair, which is what brought her back. And he remained respectful of her feelings the entire time. 

If my husband, post-D-day, had said ANYTHING like what most of the BSes here say (e.g. "I don't give a ---- about your feelings! Crying is selfish!") I would have been gone. Out like a shot. And then I probably would have been maimed or killed by the OM, so I can say my husband's kindness literally saved my life.


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> I bet he is cheated on again within 10 years. > I hope he has the guts to write the follow up.



We agree on something.

According to his old TAM posts {since deleted here} his wife had 3 affairs on him, two were early on in the marriage that he excused due to postpartum depression and the big one that lasted 18 years. She cheated 20 out of their 27 years married back in 2010 and he discovered his 16 y/o daughter {in 2011} wasn't biologically his. 

Even then I'd still say God is big enough to repair anything, however, nothing I've read indicates a true repentance from his wiccan wife so I'd estimate that sokillme is probably right about this one. 

She'll cheat again or he'll cheat {considering the way he private messaged people and complimented women online I'd say he probably already has}. The angry guy was even banned here at TAM ~~ Talk About Marriage - View Profile: 20yrshurt&r

EDITED TO ADD: I put a post much later in this thread that indicated new information I received about that poster, 20years, that wrote the above article but wanted to put it here for anyone that reads along later. It appears somewhere in 2014 or 2015 that 20years discovered his wife was still cheating on him with the OM who was actually also the Godfather of his own bio-baby {that 20years thought was his} so he divorced her and actually got remarried in August, 2015 to some other betrayed wife. Not that that fact refutes everything he wrote, but it's a pretty good indication that plan-appeasement & tolerate nicely doesn't work all that well.


MY advice to waywards would be read as many books, blogs, threads and stories written by betrayed spouse's and avoid "help" threads and discussions started by recovering wayward spouses. Such wayward help threads, though well intended {absent the admiration attention seeking ~ LOOK AT ME feel sometimes exhibited}, almost always go off the rails when trying to balance compassion for people {both betrayed AND waywards} against what can sometimes SEEM as unjust punishment and shaming of waywards. Forgive the hyperbole, but there's a difference between a bunch of victims of crime getting together and saying "let's start a prison ministry and show God's love, mercy and forgiveness to these perpetrators" versus having the perpetrators showing up and getting up to simply discuss with the victims about how the victims need to demonstrate and show more love, compassion, empathy and forgiveness for the perps. There is a balance and we {betrayed spouses} sometimes get that and sometimes don't but IMO, the person usually most needing to develop empathy are the selfish entitled recovering wayward spouses that are still way to focused on how they FEEL. FEELINGS LIE. FEELINGS are what got you in this mess in the first place so certainly advice about FEELING your way out of the mess and taking space/time to process FEELINGS isn't ultimately going to be helpful. 

Your feelings may vary. 

{and it's OK ~ it's part of the recovery process for some waywards just be cognizant that you are processing among a sea of "processing" betrayed spouses in the midst of their terrible and unwanted journey through this minefield too}


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Quality said:


> We agree on something.
> 
> According to his old TAM posts {since deleted here} his wife had 3 affairs on him, two were early on in the marriage that he excused due to postpartum depression and the big one that lasted 18 years. She cheated 20 out of their 27 years married back in 2010 and he discovered his 16 y/o daughter {in 2011} wasn't biologically his.
> 
> ...


So, for the sake of clarification, what you're saying is that 

1.) Wayward spouses have little to no right to ask that the betrayed spouse become or remain sensitive to their emotions because the wayward spouse did it to themselves, and...

2.) The feelings of a wayward spouse do not matter in the first place because it was choosing to act on their misplaced feelings for someone else that started the affair.


Am I reading you correctly?

If I am, then I will say, 

1.) That's fair. You cannot make someone acknowledge or respect your feelings or your need to have them, especially if you have hurt that someone. But that just makes it all the more important that you validate your own feelings, because...

2.) Everyone, everyone, everyone deserves to have their feelings acknowledged and validated. It's just a basic human right to have respect for your own feelings, and thereby, respect for yourself. Even if their feelings are totally inappropriate. Even if acting on those feelings could get them into trouble. Validating your own feelings does not mean believing it's okay to act on them.

As I keep saying, validation is only acknowledging that the feelings are there, and if acting on those feelings are bad, saying so. It also involves telling yourself you can move past these feelings.

To a wayward spouse, validation means, "I feel lonely and empty inside because I just broke up with my mistress. I had been dating her for a year, and it's normal to miss someone you've been close to. But calling her would mean I've hurt my wife again and it would mean my wife would divorce me and any chance at saving the marriage would be shot, so I'm going to sit through this feeling of loneliness and know that it will pass."

That's all it is. No more and no less.

If you take issue with the fact that there's not enough in my hypothetical wayward husband's internal monologue about the pain he's caused his wife, there's good reason for that. 99 out of 100 resources for waywards involve comforting the betrayed and helping them through their pain. There are far fewer resources for waywards to help themselves. I am simply shedding light in the corner of the recovery cavern where nobody else has bothered to light a candle.


----------



## ShatteredStill (Dec 20, 2016)

My husband had an affair with his coworker over 14 years ago now. He became an alien. His character, everything, completely changed. I was understanding. I was compassionate. I analysed the situation & accepted that whilst he spent all day, nearly every day with her he hardly ever saw me. We had moved across the globe for his career. He was working or studying all the time. I 'GOT-IT'.

I didn't bash him!! I was gentle, understanding. He did not speak harshly to himself. He soothed with MY HELP. 

What did this achieve? 12 years later, when I desperately needed him. When I was recovering from life saving surgery, HE was frightened, HE lost his job, it was oh so hard for HIM so when she reached out via LinkedIn with a little "hey!" message he gave himself permission to drag that nightmare back into our life. He allowed himself to do that because HE needed the ego stroke, HE needed the escape, HE needed to sooth.

A wayward NEEDS to speak harshly to themself. They NEED to HATE themselves for a while because they DESERVE IT! The truth is they have done a cruel, selfish, destructive thing. They have destroyed the person they promised to love & cherish AND the OW was the tool they used. Until they beat themselves up, until they punish themselves & truly see the absolute cruelty they have inflicted, they won't change. 

A rapist doesn't get to selfsooth & speak gently to themself & wallow in justifications for what they've done. They need to see their victim as human. They need to see the TRUTH of what they've done & HATE themselves for their brutality. That's the ONLY way they can change, truly change.


----------



## ShatteredStill (Dec 20, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> So, for the sake of clarification, what you're saying is that
> 
> 1.) Wayward spouses have little to no right to ask that the betrayed spouse become or remain sensitive to their emotions because the wayward spouse did it to themselves, and...
> 
> ...


"I feel empty inside because...." I DID AN AWFUL THING! I allowed myself to lie & cheat. I created a fantasy that wasn't real. I acted like a bad, cruel person. I NEED to change. I won't contact her again because it's WRONG!'

It's NOT about how the wayward will hurt his wife or risk divorce!! It's WRONG!! It was a horrifically cruel thing to do! If a wayward smooths by saying how 'normal' it is to have lovey dovey feelings it makes it more acceptable. It's NOT acceptable! It's NOT normal. It's NOT a lost relationship it's cutting out the cancer from his REAL LIFE!


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

ShatteredStill said:


> A wayward NEEDS to speak harshly to themself. They NEED to HATE themselves for a while because they DESERVE IT! The truth is they have done a cruel, selfish, destructive thing. They have destroyed the person they promised to love & cherish AND the OW was the tool they used. Until they beat themselves up, until they punish themselves & truly see the absolute cruelty they have inflicted, they won't change.
> 
> A rapist doesn't get to selfsooth & speak gently to themself & wallow in justifications for what they've done. They need to see their victim as human. They need to see the TRUTH of what they've done & HATE themselves for their brutality. That's the ONLY way they can change, truly change.


Why can't they do both? An infidel can speak gently to themselves _without_ justifying. They can be honest with themselves _without_ punishing. There can be a balance. What is wrong with saying, _"I broke my spouse's heart, shattered his psyche, abused his unconditional and blind trust in me. I did that to him, and it was very thoughtless of me. But I am more than capable of recovering from my poor choices and becoming the type of person who can be trusted. It is now up to me to mend my husband's broken heart and my own, and I have enough love for him and enough goodness within myself to do both. What I have done is a terrible, cruel, abusive thing, and therefore I owe it to my husband and to myself to be a trustworthy, honest person from this day forward."_

Once I accepted that what I had done was infidelity, I was so engulfed in shame and misery that I was unable to do anything remotely productive in most aspects of my life, whether for myself or for my husband. Then I started forcing myself to remind myself of my own capacity to be good whenever the waves of self-loathing hit. If I still felt like I deserved to be hit by the next oncoming train, I'd take a bubble bath or do something soothing. Or I'd cuddle my husband and pamper him and remind myself that I was capable of doing loving things for others. Or I'd talk to him about my shame and apologize. Often, I'd do all of it.

Once I started doing that for a week or so, whether I really believed I was good or not, I stopped (always) being so paralyzed by shame that I couldn't act. It didn't erase the shame spirals, but I'm now able to get out of them ever-so-slightly faster than I was before. I still do need to re-focus my thinking away from self-hate pretty often, but it's no longer paralyzing, all-encompassing, and unending.


----------



## ShatteredStill (Dec 20, 2016)

Firstly, we need to recognize that your situation is VERY different.

Secondly, that's not what you've been saying! I agree completely with a wayward saying "I've been an awful, cruel, selfish person BUT now I will change. I will be stronger, better. I will focus on my betrayed. I will NEVER be that infidel again!" But you're saying, "I have every right to miss & think of my affair partner. This was an important real relationship & it's normal to mourn the loss. It's natural that I should spend time thinking about her & desperately wanting to reach out to her but I MUST stop myself because it would hurt my spouse."

No! "She was the tool I used to escape & destroy my love! Pandering to my baser nature & longing for her is longing for fantasy, escape. Thinking those thoughts is BETRAYAL & it's by encouraging those thoughts that turned me into the bad person who did these things in the first place!"


----------



## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Betrayed spouses - end the relationship, get into counseling, and move on with your life. There are SO many people who will not cheat on you, don't waste your time trying to figure out why the person cheated, monitoring their every move, following them in your car, etc...You should forgive, because that will keep you from healing if you don't. People do make mistakes, but IMO, it's best to end it, because I've observed that most spouses who cheat once, don't stop there. 

Wayward spouses - get into counseling and figure out what is it that is empty inside of you that you feel you need to fill with an affair. Most affairs from my observation, and what I've read about on here, come from a place inside the cheater, that needs to be filled. A void or something. It often has nothing to do with the marriage or their spouse, yet that's often who they blame. Once you do this, you'll likely not ever cheat again, but if you just blame others for your actions, you'll probably cheat again...and again. I've always thought cheating is a symptom of something deeper going on in the person.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

ShatteredStill said:


> Firstly, we need to recognize that your situation is VERY different.
> 
> Secondly, that's not what you've been saying! I agree completely with a wayward saying "I've been an awful, cruel, selfish person BUT now I will change. I will be stronger, better. I will focus on my betrayed. I will NEVER be that infidel again!" But you're saying, "I have every right to miss & think of my affair partner. This was an important real relationship & it's normal to mourn the loss. It's natural that I should spend time thinking about her & desperately wanting to reach out to her but I MUST stop myself because it would hurt my spouse."
> 
> No! "She was the tool I used to escape & destroy my love! Pandering to my baser nature & longing for her is longing for fantasy, escape. Thinking those thoughts is BETRAYAL & it's by encouraging those thoughts that turned me into the bad person who did these things in the first place!"


Ahh, I see. While I went through a phase of missing my AP, it happened before I knew he was an AP, so my situation was different, yes. 

I _still_ say there is a time and place for _both_ sorts of thinking. Like I said in my article, 2/3 of your free time should be for your betrayed. 1/3 should be for you. People should try to step up and care for their betrayed spouse. When their BS is crying or triggering, they should and must help their spouse and temporarily put away their own feelings, relying on the fact that they are strong enough to do so. 

But when they are alone, by themselves, taking a moment to rest from the duties of caring for their betrayed spouse, people _do_ have every right to miss their affair partner, because illicit or not it was still a relationship. As long as they stay away from the AP, the fog will wear off and they'll eventually be ready to move on from their grief and devote 100% of their time to the betrayed spouse. But until that happens, saying, "I don't miss her at all" when he really does miss her, refusing to let himself break down and cry, stuffing down his feelings... that's going to bring all that longing back up in another form. He'll be angry and resentful, or mopey and sullen. 

Have you ever seen somebody in a rebound relationship where you know they aren't over their ex? They appear okayish on the surface, but you can just see all the pain from the former relationship eating him from the inside out. The marriage would end up being like that, where the wayward spouse jumps into the marriage gung-ho, but with a lot of subconscious resentment, longing, sorrow, bitterness, and more than a few neuroses. You can't accept that a relationship, however illicit, is over without wading through all that longing and shedding all your tears. You just can't. 

And actually, going through the grieving process over the affair partner helps the BS as well, because once all that grief has been uncovered, felt, and put to rest, the WS can return to the marriage with no subconscious anger and longing, because it's all already been dealt with. The wayward spouse will _know_ they don't want the affair partner back, because they've already done all their grieving and put the memories of the other person to rest.


----------



## ShatteredStill (Dec 20, 2016)

"Have you ever seen somebody in a rebound relationship where you know they aren't over their ex? They appear okayish on the surface, but you can just see all the pain from the former relationship eating him from the inside out. The marriage would end up being like that, where the wayward spouse jumps into the marriage gung-ho, but with a lot of subconscious resentment, longing, sorrow, bitterness, and more than a few neuroses. You can't accept that a relationship, however illicit, is over without wading through all that longing and shedding all your tears. You just can't."

Why are you romanticising an affair? A MARRIAGE is NOT a "rebound relationship" for goodness sake! Adultery is NOT a romantic REAL love affair! It's lying, sneaking, betraying. It's using 2 people in gross selfishness. The FANTASY needs to be broken. An affair isn't real. It's stollen moments. It's creating a fantasy of a person you hardly know to put them on a pedestal while you kick your committed partner in the gutter. 

You're encouraging an adulterer to be self indulgent. Poor, poor baby had to sacrifice his love, play thing for the wife. Oh mourn the one who got away & you'll feel so much better about the big sacrifice you've made!! 

You don't get it & I'm not sure that you need to. You have a very 'innocent' fantasy life. You were targeted & abused. Your situation is very different & it's coloring your view of infidelity.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> We agree on something.
> 
> According to his old TAM posts {since deleted here} his wife had 3 affairs on him, two were early on in the marriage that he excused due to postpartum depression and the big one that lasted 18 years. She cheated 20 out of their 27 years married back in 2010 and he discovered his 16 y/o daughter {in 2011} wasn't biologically his.
> 
> ...


And I agree with this post, Hell has frozen over. :rofl: (One thing God may be big enough but I don't think he would be that cruel as to expect someone to live someone who would abuse them so unmercifully, I like to believe God is just.) 

Now I didn't know any of that about this guy but I could tell by the tone of his post that he was clueless to the type of person he was dealing with. I think many BS are. Most are not damaged animals, nope they are apex predators.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

ShatteredStill said:


> My husband had an affair with his coworker over 14 years ago now. He became an alien. His character, everything, completely changed. I was understanding. I was compassionate. I analysed the situation & accepted that whilst he spent all day, nearly every day with her he hardly ever saw me. We had moved across the globe for his career. He was working or studying all the time. I 'GOT-IT'.
> 
> I didn't bash him!! I was gentle, understanding. He did not speak harshly to himself. He soothed with MY HELP.
> 
> ...


Do not blame this on your not being harder on him. I don't think them hating or soothing themselves matters either. I think there is nothing you or anyone could have done. It was in his nature, as sure as water is wet, he was going to cheat on you or any other person he married. It is as much a part of him just like if he is left or right handed.


----------



## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Quality said:


> More advice for waywards or betrayed spouses ~ they need to avoid and ignore the uninformed ramblings and opinions of young idealists that aren't trained professionals or haven't experienced marital infidelity {and hopefully never will}. Especially posters/people that aren't even married yet.
> 
> While I think wayward threads like these aren't that great or insightful, they are certainly more relevant on the subject of infidelity and "coping with infidelity" than silly opinions based upon "Observations" you've "read about on here" as stated by a yet single young woman. I mean, REALLY??? Most couples recover without the internet. The ones that recover using the internet on average move on more quickly than their {justifiably} lamenting divorced betrayed spouses brethren. Plus, a percentage of the stories on here aren't even true. It's the internet. There's a lawyer in Minnesota that alone has had countless fake stories and personas on numerous infidelity websites and forums and he's not the only one.
> 
> Nobody has to recover ~ but genuine reconciliation happens all the time.


Anyone is welcome to answer this thread, so I gave my opinion, as you are.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> It is now up to me to mend my husband's broken heart


With respect to you I always find this saying from a wayword the height of entitled. It's the same entitlement that got them into this situation in the first place. Imagine if a guy who beat his wife said, it's up to me to heal her. Um NO it's not. The best thing for the BS would be for them to have all memories of the WS erased from their lives or for them to go back in time and never meat the BS in the first place. Since that can't happen the best is for the WS basically apologize and work on themselves but when it comes to their BS sit down and shut up (no offense). Hopefully the BS will be strong enough to look for better, if not the WS shouldn't get to have any input into the healing unless specifically allowed in by the BS. WS need to remember YOU and only YOU are the source of the damage. How can you ever be expected to heal it. Your presents is a reminder, a trigger. Again you are the guy who beat his wife in this situation.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> but genuine reconciliation happens all the time.


No it doesn't, just read SI reconciliation thread. Even still the BS is settling most of the time. 

By the way nothing shows conviction in your position more then subtly putting down everyone who doesn't agree with you.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

sokillme said:


> No it doesn't, just read SI reconciliation thread. Even still the BS is settling most of the time.
> 
> By the way nothing shows conviction in your position more then subtly putting down everyone who doesn't agree with you.


I know that this is your opinion and that you are a huge proponent of never, ever reconciling after an affair. But it is only your opinion.

Studies do show that a lot of couples do reconcile and go on to have good marriages. I know quite a few couples who have done this.

People have the right to make up their own mind on what they want to do--reconcile or not. That last thing people need is some internet guy trying to tell them that than must not reconcile simply because he says so.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> I know that this is your opinion and that you are a huge proponent of never, ever reconciling after an affair. But it is only your opinion.
> 
> Studies do show that a lot of couples do reconcile and go on to have good marriages. I know quite a few couples who have done this.
> 
> People have the right to make up their own mind on what they want to do--reconcile or not. That last thing people need is some internet guy trying to tell them that than must not reconcile simply because he says so.


I didn't say it doesn't happen I said it doesn't happen all the time. Most people divorce. 50% of all marriages end in divorce at least in the US.


----------



## Mizzbak (Sep 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> More advice for waywards or betrayed spouses ~ they need to avoid and ignore the uninformed ramblings and opinions of young idealists that aren't trained professionals or haven't experienced marital infidelity {and hopefully never will}. Especially posters/people that aren't even married yet.
> 
> While I think wayward threads like these aren't that great or insightful, they are certainly more relevant on the subject of infidelity and "coping with infidelity" than silly opinions based upon "Observations" you've "read about on here" as stated by a yet single young woman. I mean, REALLY???


Come on @Quality - I expect better of you. I get that you're hugely frustrated at the number of lost and hurting souls who come onto TAM and get met with a barrage of flippant "advice" from people who aren't even pretending to have their best interests at heart and are just using the OP's pain as a platform to spout their own opinions. But them's the breaks when you go online for advice. 

And, this thread here is definitely more of a philosophical thread ... and just like you, @*Deidre* is entitled to both have an opinion and express it here. Unless you're advocating some kind of badge system where we all have to prove our worthiness (by dint of age, life experience or professional qualification) in order to presume to have an opinion? 

I wouldn't normally have even bothered to say anything, except that several of your posts have been very helpful to me and you compromise your own position when you attack other people you disagree with rather than just their argument. As it is, there are few enough people here in this sub-forum who argue that reconciliation is not just possible but REALLY possible. Please head over to the threads where there are real hurting people that need your wisdom and perspective ... and give your usual good and thought-provoking advice on how to do it. Don't waste your time rising to the bait here.


----------



## Mizzbak (Sep 10, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> Anyone is welcome to answer this thread, so I gave my opinion, as you are.


Nicely said.

Regarding your original argument - I think that there is a danger in anyone thinking themselves morally superior to other people, especially in the case of BS's trying to understand their WS's and vice versa. The argument that those who are capable of infidelity are missing some critical component or are somehow under-evolved relative to the rest of us is a slippery slope. As BS's, it gets in the way of understanding and forgiving our spouses, and it allows a dangerous arrogance to creep in (for the further we can fall).

I believe that all of us are deeply flawed. I've done things of which I am deeply ashamed - things that hurt other people and things that ultimately hurt me as well. I find it very hard to imagine making myself OK with cheating on anyone after experiencing the pain that my husband's actions have caused me. Yet, strangely, the affair partner in my husband's recent EA, was herself terribly betrayed very early on in her first marriage. I've come to realise that married people hurt each other all the time - it's part of being in a real relationship. And it isn't about the magnitude of the hurt either - you can bleed to death just as easily from a thousand small cuts as you can from a single stab to the heart. 

My point is that putting all WS's into a basket and calling them fundamentally unclean can allow us (non-WS's) to become arrogant and also precludes realising that everyone is capable of growth and change. FWIW.


----------



## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Mizzbak said:


> Nicely said.
> 
> Regarding your original argument - I think that there is a danger in anyone thinking themselves morally superior to other people, especially in the case of BS's trying to understand their WS's and vice versa. The argument that those who are capable of infidelity are missing some critical component or are somehow under-evolved relative to the rest of us is a slippery slope. As BS's, it gets in the way of understanding and forgiving our spouses, and it allows a dangerous arrogance to creep in (for the further we can fall).
> 
> ...


I never said nor implied that WS are ''fundamentally unclean,'' but it shouldn't be presumed either that if someone doesn't wish to remain in a relationship with a WS that they are somehow cold and unforgiving (or arrogant). Forgiveness doesn't mean we need to stay in situations that are unhealthy for us, IMO. It's a matter of what you can see yourself being able to tolerate or accept in a relationship. Of course, after kids are born, etc...things may change for couples faced with infidelity, but I can only speak for myself as to what a dealbreaker might look like for me. It's an opinion thread, not telling others how to view things, but it's just my opinion, that I'd prefer ending the relationship over staying with someone that I honestly don't think i could trust again. I could forgive, we should forgive people who wrong us, but forgiveness doesn't mean I need to remain with someone I no longer trust. Cheating damages a relationship forever...yes, people may reconcile, but that relationship will never be the same. There are some who say their relationships are better, and I'm not suggesting to follow what my opinion is saying. But, it's just my opinion for me, I can't speak for anyone else.


----------



## Mizzbak (Sep 10, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> I never said nor implied that WS are ''fundamentally unclean,'' but it shouldn't be presumed either that if someone doesn't wish to remain in a relationship with a WS that they are somehow cold and unforgiving (or arrogant). Forgiveness doesn't mean we need to stay in situations that are unhealthy for us, IMO. It's a matter of what you can see yourself being able to tolerate or accept in a relationship. Of course, after kids are born, etc...things may change for couples faced with infidelity, but I can only speak for myself as to what a dealbreaker might look like for me. It's an opinion thread, not telling others how to view things, but it's just my opinion, that I'd prefer ending the relationship over staying with someone that I honestly don't think i could trust again. I could forgive, we should forgive people who wrong us, but forgiveness doesn't mean I need to remain with someone I no longer trust. Cheating damages a relationship forever...yes, people may reconcile, but that relationship will never be the same. There are some who say their relationships are better, and I'm not suggesting to follow what my opinion is saying. But, it's just my opinion for me, I can't speak for anyone else.


(Note to self: Perhaps I shouldn't have used the term "fundamentally unclean" for dramatic effect)

It seems to me that you've spent quite a lot of thought on this. I never really did think about what my position would be until it happened to me. If I had, I'm pretty sure that I would have had a similar view to you. You're also right that children and other circumstances change things dramatically - although the biggest difference for me was that my love for my husband didn't just disappear when I found out what he'd done. (If I'd thought about it, I would have thought it would.) And that trust is a surprisingly resilient thing - rather like that small cactus potplant left behind by the last tenants that just won't die. 

As long as the corollary to accepting that, if someone doesn't wish to remain in a relationship with a WS that they are neither cold, unforgiving nor arrogant; is also accepting that, if they should choose to pursue reconciliation, that they are neither gullible, weak nor co-dependent, I'm OK with that.


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> Quality said:
> 
> 
> > ]While I think wayward threads like these aren't that great or insightful, they are certainly more relevant on the subject of infidelity and "coping with infidelity" than silly opinions based upon "Observations" you've "read about on here" as stated by a yet single young woman. I mean, REALLY??? Most couples recover without the internet. The ones that recover using the internet on average move on more quickly than their {justifiably} lamenting divorced betrayed spouses brethren. Plus, a percentage of the stories on here aren't even true. It's the internet. There's a lawyer in Minnesota that alone has had countless fake stories and personas on numerous infidelity websites and forums and he's not the only one.
> ...


There is absolutely nothing in my post indicating you aren't allowed or "welcome to answer this thread" and "give your opinion". First, that's above my pay grade. Second, I don't have all the answers, just, perhaps, better and more relevant ones. Third, unlike your post affirming a right no one was trying to deny you, my post wasn't a threadjack and specifically answered the title of this thread ~~"WHAT ADVICE WOULD YOU GIVE TO A WAYWARD/BETRAYED SPOUSE. 

Again, IMO, wayward AND betrayed spouses alike reading on opinion/infidelity forums should be very aware that some opinions are better than others. The posters won't always tell you their backgrounds and/or sometimes the posters and their back stories are completely fake so you {the person here desperately seeking help for your marital relationship in crisis} need to exercise some discernment and read for awhile {including reading some professionals} to figure out trustworthy and honest advice consistent with your own morals and beliefs. 

IMO, the internet is a wonderful place to find some community as you endure and experience this ordeal. It's tough in real life to find one or two understanding persons to talk about these situations with whereas here you seemingly find a whole collection of them. However, the internet is becoming more and more divisive and negative and though situations and experiences may be similar, in my experience helping many couples the outcomes are far far far from predictable. I've seen the worst of the worst situations recover incredibly and situations seemingly the easiest and most logical to recover fall apart before my eyes.


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> Anyone is welcome to answer this thread, so I gave my opinion, as you are.





EllaSuaveterre said:


> So, for the sake of clarification, what you're saying is that
> 
> 1.) Wayward spouses have little to no right to ask that the betrayed spouse become or remain sensitive to their emotions because the wayward spouse did it to themselves, and...
> 
> ...



Validation is overrated.

There's a reason 99/100 resources for waywards involve comforting the betrayed and helping them through their pain" ~ because it's the only thing that works.

Their thoughts {comfort & empathy} become their actions {helping ~ being supportive in thought and deed} and their feelings will end up following thei actions so "processing" and "validating" and continuing to focus on their previous adulterous relationship while self-validating and demanding their right to process their emotions isn't actually "withdrawing" from it at all ~~ it's advising them to remain {or prolong being} stuck in it and is far too risky {that your wayward behavior will resume} because those are the "actions" that will follow those thoughts/feelings. 

"Withdrawal" is supposed to by a physiological response and depression due to the ABSOLUTE END of the hurtful and destructive adulterous relationship versus a legitimate natural right of the wayward to demand time and space so they can properly put the affair behind them like it was legitimate life occurence the betrayed spouse must simply tolerate. Just because withdrawal happens doesn't mean it should be focused on or that it is OK. Just be done with it. The betrayed doesn't want to know or talk about how REAL your feelings were or are or how the wayward needs to mourn the loss of their relationship with that {POS}. Just do it.

How should they "just do it"? Change your thoughts ~ TODAY. Focus them on your betrayed spouse ASAP and their needs, wants and feelings and your thoughts will become your actions consistent with a remorseful repentant FORMER wayward spouse and, in short order, your feelings FOR your spouse will return and you'll FEEL embarrassed and ashamed you ever had feelings for that piece of crap loser. 


Again, many former waywards before you had similar thoughts and feelings and I'm not saying you're a bad person for wanting to help. I fully believe and understand your compassion and empathy for other former waywards "processing" recovery like you are, however, the hurtful underlying tone of wayward threads like these is often that the waywards seem to be getting unfairly or overy bashed and/or shamed on forums like these. What that communicates to betrayed spouses is that you don't think the crime of adultery is quite as bad as it really is AND that you still identify yourself on team wayward. In time, the healthiest former waywards like my wife and others we have witnessed and/or helped repent generally don't feel it's near enough "bashing and shaming". That neither society nor forums actually reflect the gravity of the crime of adultery and they are first in line to discipline, confront and expose such persons. It's the same punishment for all sin ~~ death; but none of us get that punishment because of what Jesus did for us up on that cross. None of us are ENTITLED to validation, life, happiness and none of us are getting what we truly deserve {myself included}. It was bad. Really bad and if you truly thought about it don't you think it's kind of mean and hurtful to your own betrayed husband for you to be wasting all this time, energy, empathy and compassion for other wayward spouses when he likely just wants you to talking and focusing on it. To him, you're just his spouse. You're not a wayward anymore so stop "labelling" yourself and get on his team ~ team former betrayed spouse in recovered marriage. We're really a nice bunch of loving and forgiving persons.


----------



## Finity (Oct 15, 2014)

Leave....

Yes you read it right...leave. 

BS - give yourself time to process all that has happened. After a dday, you are filled with emotions, questions that need answers to but you are also filled with a great amount of sorrow and pain. Actions from you may have you wanting to harm your spouse from betraying you. Leave. Gather your thoughts and find out if your marriage is what you really want after discovering an affair.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

It depends on the individual case.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Quality said:


> We agree on something.
> 
> According to his old TAM posts {since deleted here} his wife had 3 affairs on him, two were early on in the marriage that he excused due to postpartum depression and the big one that lasted 18 years. She cheated 20 out of their 27 years married back in 2010 and he discovered his 16 y/o daughter {in 2011} wasn't biologically his.
> 
> ...


I did not know any of this about this man. How do you know what was in deleted posts?

I think his advice, as given in the article I linked, was excellent, and still stands.



> MY advice to waywards would be read as many books, blogs, threads and stories written by betrayed spouse's and avoid "help" threads and discussions started by recovering wayward spouses. Such wayward help threads, though well intended {absent the admiration attention seeking ~ LOOK AT ME feel sometimes exhibited}, almost always go off the rails when trying to balance compassion for people {both betrayed AND waywards} against what can sometimes SEEM as unjust punishment and shaming of waywards. Forgive the hyperbole, but there's a difference between a bunch of victims of crime getting together and saying "let's start a prison ministry and show God's love, mercy and forgiveness to these perpetrators" versus having the perpetrators showing up and getting up to simply discuss with the victims about how the victims need to demonstrate and show more love, compassion, empathy and forgiveness for the perps. There is a balance and we {betrayed spouses} sometimes get that and sometimes don't but IMO, the person usually most needing to develop empathy are the selfish entitled recovering wayward spouses that are still way to focused on how they FEEL. FEELINGS LIE. FEELINGS are what got you in this mess in the first place so certainly advice about FEELING your way out of the mess and taking space/time to process FEELINGS isn't ultimately going to be helpful.
> 
> Your feelings may vary.
> 
> {and it's OK ~ it's part of the recovery process for some waywards just be cognizant that you are processing among a sea of "processing" betrayed spouses in the midst of their terrible and unwanted journey through this minefield too}


I am not sure we always know who the "victim" is in an affair, or in a marriage. And whoever is in the "betrayed" or "wayward" position could be debated. I think plenty of "waywards" feel "betrayed" long before an affair is ever on the horizon.

As Esther Perel says,_ "Every affair will redefine a relationship, and every couple will determine what the legacy of the affair will be. But affairs are here to stay, and they're not going away. And the dilemmas of love and desire, they don't yield just simple answers of black and white and good and bad, and victim and perpetrator. *Betrayal in a relationship comes in many forms. There are many ways that we betray our partner: with contempt, with neglect, with indifference, with violence. Sexual betrayal is only one way to hurt a partner. In other words, the victim of an affair is not always the victim of the marriage*."_

Esther Perel: Rethinking infidelity ... a talk for anyone who has ever loved | TED Talk Subtitles and Transcript | TED.com


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Since you disagree, why not tell us why? The betrayed husband in this article put himself first. He made a plan to divorce and got his things in order in case that's what happened. He explained to her that he had PTSD and was going to need certain considerations from her when she was triggering. He set a date and decided he would divorce if she didn't end the affair and meet whatever his requirements were for recovery by then.
> 
> I've had a second read-through though, and I do see a few major problems in that he didn't ask for a timeline and thus didn't have closure, but maybe he's the sort that doesn't want or need the details. There was also the issue that he didn't tell her about his pain. That's quite wrong, I think. Both parties need to talk about their feelings. Especially after he explained that he had PTSD and was having triggers, she should have made it her goal to help him through them.
> 
> ...


And you would have been wise to leave him if he did that.

I think it was your mother's love and wisdom that saved your life, Ella. So glad she was watching over you!


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> So, for the sake of clarification, what you're saying is that
> 
> 1.) Wayward spouses have little to no right to ask that the betrayed spouse become or remain sensitive to their emotions because the wayward spouse did it to themselves, and...
> 
> ...


I think there are resources for healing from affairs that are healthier than some of the ones you may have read, Ella. I linked that talk from Esther Perel, for example. 

I don't think expecting waywards to help betrayeds is realistic in most cases, or not at the beginning. They are more than likely in too much pain, especially if the betrayed has used the "shock and awe" techniques recommended here and perhaps on other sites. 

In reality, both partners are hurting. Both partners desperately need empathy. If they cannot get it from each other, an outside person, like a professional counselor, is a good resource for support.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Ahh, I see. While I went through a phase of missing my AP, it happened before I knew he was an AP, so my situation was different, yes.
> 
> I _still_ say there is a time and place for _both_ sorts of thinking. Like I said in my article, 2/3 of your free time should be for your betrayed. 1/3 should be for you. People should try to step up and care for their betrayed spouse. When their BS is crying or triggering, they should and must help their spouse and temporarily put away their own feelings, relying on the fact that they are strong enough to do so.
> 
> ...


I definitely agree both spouses need to be honest with themselves and honest with each other, however painful it may be for either. Transparency builds trust.

I disagree that a certain amount of time is required to be spent on either spouse, whether betrayed or wayward. In reality, whatever empathy and compassion can be offered by either to the other is going to be helpful. They may take turns carrying each other, and the marriage.

Again, life is messy. There are not necessarily clear cut rules. Humans, and their relationships, can be complicated.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Mizzbak said:


> Nicely said.
> 
> Regarding your original argument - I think that there is a danger in anyone thinking themselves morally superior to other people, especially in the case of BS's trying to understand their WS's and vice versa. The argument that those who are capable of infidelity are missing some critical component or are somehow under-evolved relative to the rest of us is a slippery slope. As BS's, it gets in the way of understanding and forgiving our spouses, and it allows a dangerous arrogance to creep in (for the further we can fall).
> 
> ...


Beautiful post.

And I totally agree that there is a lot of arrogance--and _entitlement_--in a lot of the betrayeds here. Rarely do I hear humility and compassion--basically _maturity_--in their posts.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

I think I do understand to a degree where many of the Betrayed spouses on websites like these are coming from. Even if there were problems in the marriage before, the Betrayed spouse didn't command their Wayward spouse to cheat. Therefore, it's not the Betrayed spouse's fault that the Wayward spouse had an affair. 

And in their pain, the Betrayed spouse wants to shield and protect themselves from further pain. And when they see all of these resources that say the Betrayed spouse now has 100% of the power in the relationship, and deserves 100% of the empathy and sympathy, of course they're going to jump on that. Of course they're going to like people who say they don't have to empathize at all with their Wayward spouse, because they're probably in too much pain to empathize anyway.

And the thing is I don't disagree with most of what these resources say. The Betrayed spouse has every right to withdraw from the relationship and focus on healing themselves until they feel safer. It's just that the Wayward spouse does too. The Betrayed spouse has every right to ask for all the comfort and sympathy they need to get through their trauma. It's just the Wayward has a right to comfort and sympathy too.


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

jld said:


> I did not know any of this about this man. How do you know what was in deleted posts?
> 
> I think his advice, as given in the article I linked, was excellent, and still stands.


Rarely is anything on the internet truly "deleted". 

His advice is only excellent as it relates to staying married to a lifelong wayward thinking spouse that isn't going to repent.




jld said:


> I am not sure we always know who the "victim" is in an affair, or in a marriage. And whoever is in the "betrayed" or "wayward" position could be debated. I think plenty of "waywards" FEEL "betrayed" long before an affair is ever on the horizon. {emphasis added by Quality}


What an incredibly insensitive thing to post on a sub-forum full of posters traumatized by their spouse's sexual infidelity. It's like posting on a rape victims survival forum and suggesting some portion of the "victims" there deserved it while implying that some of the rapists had adequate excusable justification/provocation for their immoral illegal and sinful sexual behavior. 

Further, again this is the danger of wayward sympathizing advice and is focused on what "plenty of "waywards FEEL". Feelings lie. FEELING "betrayed" is not actually BEING betrayed. It's not reality. It's 999 out of 1000 times a near complete fabrication and history rewrite and it certainly doesn't justify REAL betrayal/adultery. 




jld said:


> As Esther Perel says,_ "Every affair will redefine a relationship, and every couple will determine what the legacy of the affair will be. But affairs are here to stay, and they're not going away. And the dilemmas of love and desire, they don't yield just simple answers of black and white and good and bad, and victim and perpetrator. *Betrayal in a relationship comes in many forms. There are many ways that we betray our partner: with contempt, with neglect, with indifference, with violence. Sexual betrayal is only one way to hurt a partner. In other words, the victim of an affair is not always the victim of the marriage*."_


A perfect example of harmful dangerous wayward advice. Esther Perel, clearly a proud wayward, is a New York City sex therapist who thinks intimacy is destructive in marriage, who promotes jealously, independence, kink and alternative lifestyles and who encourages couples to take yearly "swinging" trips to Vegas. 

and~~ again, you {JLD} posting a quote equating "contempt, neglect, indifference" with "sexual betrayal" on sub-forum populated by many hurting and recently betrayed persons just seems cruel and insensitive to me. I'm not personally upset or angry about it, but I am offended on behalf of the those currently suffering betrayed spouses who are receiving all sorts of attacks on their characters, integrity and personhood from their own rationalizing and justifying waywards spouses spewing that then come here for support only to see/read quotes supporting the notion that they deserved to be cheated on. 

Plus ~ it's circular reasoning. If an adulterous wayward can take the label of neglected betrayed and call it equal, then who MADE the neglectful now labelled wayward spouse have contempt, indifference and become neglectful. Maybe if the neglected now betrayed spouse was just a better spouse in the first place they wouldn't have been neglected and treated with such contempt and indifference. I mean, SOMEONE surely made their spouse feel such contempt and thus, neglectful. In other words, it's all just wayward double-speak and gives everyone a pass all the way up and down the line.


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I think I do understand to a degree where many of the Betrayed spouses on websites like these are coming from. Even if there were problems in the marriage before, the Betrayed spouse didn't command their Wayward spouse to cheat. Therefore, it's not the Betrayed spouse's fault that the Wayward spouse had an affair.
> 
> And in their pain, the Betrayed spouse wants to shield and protect themselves from further pain. And when they see all of these resources that say the Betrayed spouse now has 100% of the power in the relationship, and deserves 100% of the empathy and sympathy, of course they're going to jump on that. Of course they're going to like people who say they don't have to empathize at all with their Wayward spouse, because they're probably in too much pain to empathize anyway.
> 
> And the thing is I don't disagree with most of what these resources say. The Betrayed spouse has every right to withdraw from the relationship and focus on healing themselves until they feel safer. It's just that the Wayward spouse does too. The Betrayed spouse has every right to ask for all the comfort and sympathy they need to get through their trauma. It's just the Wayward has a right to comfort and sympathy too.


Thank you for listening to me.

First let me just say I GAVE my wife comfort and sympathy. I understood fully that she was trapped in sin and lashing out and it was much more about her than me. I was trying to save her {and thus my marriage and family} from the land of wayward, death and destruction. I endured withdrawal with the full natural understanding that she'd lost her mind and would regret it all eventually. I knew I was lovable {with or without her} but hoped/prayed she'd choose to love me again and work to restore our marriage and family. Having endured adultery, withdrawal was a cakewalk but I still wouldn't have appreciated my selfish entitled wayward wife at the time demanding her "right" to comfort, sympathy and understanding while explaining to me that she needed my {or anyone's} support to process her feelings for the other man. Having some wayward wife advise her to demand such right would have infuriated me back then too {not that I'm an angry or outwardly hostile guy, I just would have thought it absurd, as I do now, that my selfish entitled monster of a wayward wife was demanding more rights to time and space when that's exactly what go US into that mess in the first place. I, the more balanced, rational and logical spouse {at the time} felt time and space to think and process were the last she/we needed to be doing. 

My wife now LOATHES withdrawal and is completely embarrassed by having "done" it. The more attention and energy put into it just adds to the shame and guilt the wayward should/will feel later on during repentance so perhaps it's really not a great point of emphasis as "helpful" advice.

Primum non nocere is a Latin phrase that means "first, do no harm." Before one sets about trying to "help" a particular set of individuals in a certain way, you better make sure you're not making their situation or predicament worse. Wayward spouses tend to be pretty heavy on the entitlement thing and don't often have a lot of reservations being demanding and taking the role of the victim. IMO, they need more help developing empathy for their victim versus wasting their time exercising self-empathy, self-validation and other navel gazing as long as their spouse remains in the same house bleeding out {emotionally} all over the place.

In the end, I think it's harder on the recovered wayward spouse in a recovered marriage. They have much more vivid personal memories of the disgusting vulgar wayward stuff they did 24/7 during that period of their lives, whereas I get to be the hero of our story who, along with God, saved her from a wayward life of loneliness, despair, soul death, sin and perpetual wayward thinking. My wife remains in complete shock and awe over what I did to save her {including how I went about it ~ even the exposure}.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I think I do understand to a degree where many of the Betrayed spouses on websites like these are coming from. Even if there were problems in the marriage before, the Betrayed spouse didn't command their Wayward spouse to cheat. Therefore, it's not the Betrayed spouse's fault that the Wayward spouse had an affair.
> 
> And in their pain, the Betrayed spouse wants to shield and protect themselves from further pain. And when they see all of these resources that say the Betrayed spouse now has 100% of the power in the relationship, and deserves 100% of the empathy and sympathy, of course they're going to jump on that. Of course they're going to like people who say they don't have to empathize at all with their Wayward spouse, because they're probably in too much pain to empathize anyway.
> 
> And the thing is I don't disagree with most of what these resources say. The Betrayed spouse has every right to withdraw from the relationship and focus on healing themselves until they feel safer. It's just that the Wayward spouse does too. The Betrayed spouse has every right to ask for all the comfort and sympathy they need to get through their trauma. It's just the Wayward has a right to comfort and sympathy too.


Good lord, could you BE any more condescending here? "the Wayward has a right to comfort and sympathy too". No they don't. They have a right to ASK for it, and I have the right to slap them in the face when they do.

Couch what you're saying in whatever pretty language you like, and ignore everything you're being told on this thread (other than by like-minded, never-been-cheated-on-or-cheated jld of course), what it boils down to is your way of thinking is offensive to BS's everywhere and like I said before, using THIS forum as your platform is wrong.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> Good lord, could you BE any more condescending here? "the Wayward has a right to comfort and sympathy too". No they don't. They have a right to ASK for it, and I have the right to slap them in the face when they do.


And after you slap them, the have the right to give comfort and sympathy and support to themselves.



Hope1964 said:


> Couch what you're saying in whatever pretty language you like, and ignore everything you're being told on this thread (other than by like-minded, never-been-cheated-on-or-cheated jld of course), what it boils down to is your way of thinking is offensive to BS's everywhere and like I said before, using THIS forum as your platform is wrong.


It's unfortunate that you're offended. My husband isn't. He very much wants me to love myself and get over the shame regarding the A. He likes the idea of me taking time off to pamper myself. He even let me do a home spa treatment (which lasted hours) at home with him on a weekend once, with him in the living room. I expressed guilt at doing something I liked during his time (the weekend), but he told me I should go for it. He came in to check on me occasionally and worked on his programming. Afterward, I think we did what we always do. We cuddled, and played The And and he showed me his programming progress... but I digress. 

If my BH is happy- truly happy- with the idea of his WW spending time fostering self-love and taking time to self-care, it can't be wrong. Actually, self-care can't be wrong at all, so long as you also make time to deal with the painful issues in your life... which is also a form of self-care. My therapist told me that. I've been swathed in shame for two and a half years, and I'm done feeling tainted, feeling dirty, feeling evil. I will teach myself how to feel worthy and loved, and if I can take other WSes (and BSes) on this ride with me and teach them how not to feel less-than, all the better.


----------



## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Quality said:


> There is absolutely nothing in my post indicating you aren't allowed or "welcome to answer this thread" and "give your opinion". First, that's above my pay grade. Second, I don't have all the answers, just, perhaps, better and more relevant ones. Third, unlike your post affirming a right no one was trying to deny you, my post wasn't a threadjack and specifically answered the title of this thread ~~"WHAT ADVICE WOULD YOU GIVE TO A WAYWARD/BETRAYED SPOUSE.
> 
> Again, IMO, wayward AND betrayed spouses alike reading on opinion/infidelity forums should be very aware that some opinions are better than others. The posters won't always tell you their backgrounds and/or sometimes the posters and their back stories are completely fake so you {the person here desperately seeking help for your marital relationship in crisis} need to exercise some discernment and read for awhile {including reading some professionals} to figure out trustworthy and honest advice consistent with your own morals and beliefs.
> 
> IMO, the internet is a wonderful place to find some community as you endure and experience this ordeal. It's tough in real life to find one or two understanding persons to talk about these situations with whereas here you seemingly find a whole collection of them. However, the internet is becoming more and more divisive and negative and though situations and experiences may be similar, in my experience helping many couples the outcomes are far far far from predictable. I've seen the worst of the worst situations recover incredibly and situations seemingly the easiest and most logical to recover fall apart before my eyes.


I appreciate your post here, all your points make sense.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> If my BH is happy- truly happy- with the idea of his WW spending time fostering self-love and taking time to self-care, it can't be wrong. Actually, self-care can't be wrong at all, so long as you also make time to deal with the painful issues in your life... which is also a form of self-care. My therapist told me that. I've been swathed in shame for two and a half years, and I'm done feeling tainted, feeling dirty, feeling evil. I will teach myself how to feel worthy and loved, and if I can take other WSes (and BSes) on this ride with me and teach them how not to feel less-than, all the better.


OMG. WS's ARE 'less-than'. Any WS who doesn't start out that way doesn't deserve R or their spouse or their kids or any of it. A WS can NEVER "take it back". They will forever have cheated - nothing is ever going to change that. All they can do is make up for it by the way they choose to go forward. Feeling worthy and loved should come once you've examined yourself deeply and truly and fixed whatever led to you cheating in the first place and ONLY then. Perhaps you've done that - if so great. But posting all this drivel about taking other WS's on this lovely ride with you is giving the vast majority of them a free ticket.

I can't believe you don't see that.


----------



## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Idk...I don't think someone needs to wear a scarlet letter forever, if he/she has cheated, but there needs to be true repentance, and by that..a real change of heart or I can't see the marriage working.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

*Deidre* said:


> Idk...I don't think someone needs to wear a scarlet letter forever, if he/she has cheated.


Neither do I. But they will always have cheated. If they do the work to mend themselves, they'll be a better person. 

If you break your leg, you will always have broken your leg. Nothing you do will ever change that fact. And it will always show up on an x-ray. But if it gets the proper medical attention so it can mend properly, it won't affect you as badly as if it's allowed to mend without being set properly. Everyone around you will soon forget that you even broke your leg, and so will you. It's won't be a factor any more.

What WS's are going to take from Ella's posts here is that they don't need to take their broken leg to the dr. All they need to do is love it and it will heal. That may not be exactly what she's saying, but that's what they're going to take away from it.


----------



## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> Neither do I. But they will always have cheated. If they do the work to mend themselves, they'll be a better person.
> 
> If you break your leg, you will always have broken your leg. Nothing you do will ever change that fact. And it will always show up on an x-ray. But if it gets the proper medical attention so it can mend properly, it won't affect you as badly as if it's allowed to mend without being set properly. Everyone around you will soon forget that you even broke your leg, and so will you. It's won't be a factor any more.
> 
> What WS's are going to take from Ella's posts here is that they don't need to take their broken leg to the dr. All they need to do is love it and it will heal. That may not be exactly what she's saying, but that's what they're going to take away from it.


I see your point, now. 

Some of this also hinges on the betrayed spouse's reaction to it all, do you agree? If a betrayed spouse is too scared to lose the WS, go through a divorce, etc... then the WS may not go through all the right steps towards true reconciliation.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

*Deidre* said:


> Some of this also hinges on the betrayed spouse's reaction to it all, do you agree? If a betrayed spouse is too scared to lose the WS, go through a divorce, etc... then the WS may not go through all the right steps towards true reconciliation.


Absolutely. That's why my standard advice is to kick the cheater out. If you have the guts to do that, then you have the guts to do a true R. And if the cheater then says to hell with you, then to hell with them - they aren't worth it. It's a win-win.

Also, if a BS reacts the way Ella's apparently has, most cheaters are going to run with that right back into the arms of their lover.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> Absolutely. That's why my standard advice is to kick the cheater out. If you have the guts to do that, then you have the guts to do a true R. And if the cheater then says to hell with you, then to hell with them - they aren't worth it. It's a win-win.
> 
> Also, if a BS reacts the way Ella's apparently has, most cheaters are going to run with that right back into the arms of their lover.


I don't see how. My OM told me- or rather, heavily implied- that my parents would disown me and my husband would kick me out if they ever found out about the A, so it would be best to just go with him and do what he said because it was too late to go back. After I got out of the hospital, I found out my parents and husband loved me so much more than I thought they did. Nobody kicked me out or abandoned me, and the OM was wrong. That gave me courage to _stay_, not to leave.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> OMG. WS's ARE 'less-than'. Any WS who doesn't start out that way doesn't deserve R or their spouse or their kids or any of it. A WS can NEVER "take it back". They will forever have cheated - nothing is ever going to change that. All they can do is make up for it by the way they choose to go forward. Feeling worthy and loved should come once you've examined yourself deeply and truly and fixed whatever led to you cheating in the first place and ONLY then. Perhaps you've done that - if so great. But posting all this drivel about taking other WS's on this lovely ride with you is giving the vast majority of them a free ticket.
> 
> I can't believe you don't see that.


I agree with about 75% of this. A WS cannot erase the past, undo what they did, or wipe out the BS's trauma. It can't be done. They can try to make up for it, but the BS will still have trauma- probably forever- to some degree. And you can and should feel worthy and loved once you've fixed yourself.

But, you can and should also feel worthy and loved during the fixing, and before as well. Feeling worthy is not a reward for good behavior. It is not a carrot the BS can dangle on a stick once the WS does enough groveling. Self-love is simply a state of being that only you can give yourself, and usually it's the state of being that _leads_ to change, not the other way around. 

People say all the time, "I'm quitting smoking/drinking/drugs/self-harm/overeating/etc. because I _deserve_ to be healthy. I _deserve_ a better life than what [insert addiction] can give me".

And if the affair partner is a neurochemical addiction, why not quit the affair because you _deserve_ better than the AP can give you? Why not start from a place of utter self-compassion, which will give you the courage to take the time to discover what the AP really did for you (made you feel special? Made you feel safe?) mourn what you've lost for a little while, and then give those "lost" things back to _yourself_?

Bottom line: A wayward spouse deserves the happiness and fulfillment that comes from living a life of integrity, stopping problematic behavior, and _learning to love themselves_ enough to nurture themselves physically, psychologically, and spiritually. Why is that? Because they are living human beings, and that is what we _all_ deserve.

If that hurts a betrayed spouse to hear, then said betrayed spouse has plenty more of their own nurturing and healing to do.


----------



## fleek (Jul 20, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Bottom line: A wayward spouse deserves the happiness and fulfillment that comes from living a life of integrity, stopping problematic behavior, and _learning to love themselves_ enough to nurture themselves physically, psychologically, and spiritually. Why is that? Because they are living human beings, and that is what we _all_ deserve.
> 
> If that hurts a betrayed spouse to hear, then said betrayed spouse has plenty more of their own nurturing and healing to do.


The hitch in that logic is if the cheater was living a life of integrity they wouldn't be in this mess in the first place. 

You seem to follow the narrative that you were somehow compelled to cheat. Dopamine and the OM's manipulation took away your free will. That just isn't the case. You made a choice. That's all on you. 

Certainly, you should practice self-care. I don't think anyone expects cheaters to self-flagellate forever. I do think there needs to be some self introspection going on. Some maturation. I think most people think cheating is wrong. So some questioning of how, and why, they had the ability to give themselves permission to cheat would be very important. 

That's the primary difference between cheaters and folks that didn't make that choice. You acted on your own free will. Your circumstances were directly under your control. That's vastly different from a BS that's been shunned, lied to, gaslighted, manipulated, and hurt through the simple act of loving the cheater. I think you'll also find that this "cheaters need love too" soapbox won't ease your guilt or shame. You did what you did of your own volition. You have to own that at some point. 

To the point of what advice I would give:
WS: Come clean immediately. No trickle truth. No minimizing. Just give it to the BS in one shot. Don't blameshift. Own your choices. Admit your wrongdoing. Grovel and beg for a second chance. Have immediate remorse. Work your ass off to make amends. Be transparent. Hope your BS has some grace to give.

BS: File for divorce if your cheater varies at all from the above.


----------



## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

fleek said:


> The hitch in that logic is if the cheater was living a life of integrity they wouldn't be in this mess in the first place.
> 
> You seem to follow the narrative that you were somehow compelled to cheat. Dopamine and the OM's manipulation took away your free will. That just isn't the case. You made a choice. That's all on you.
> 
> ...


Wish I could ''like'' this post 1000 times. Really well stated.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

What I find particularly laughable is the idea that anyone -- and especially a BS -- gives a crap about any turmoil, loss, despair, or whatever a WS may feel as a result of his or her affair coming to an end.

Seriously, no one cares.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I just looked at your profile Ella - you're only 23?? That sure explains a lot. No wonder I feel like I'm talking to a wall here.

Whatever, please carry on. You're obviously not going to listen to anything people are telling you on this thread. If you think you're an expert here I'm done. Good luck.


----------



## ShatteredStill (Dec 20, 2016)

(One last try) Ella, your extreme situation, YOU as a person, the extent that YOU needed to heal etc are why your therapist & your husband & your family are advising you the way they are. I agree!

You embrace romance & innocence. You are very delicate. I do get-it. I REALLY do, to the extent that I was originally hesitant to comment on this thread. 

As any forum, MANY more read than ever post which is why I now find it hard to let-go. 

You are NEARLY right in a lot of the things that you're posting BUT you are missing the core of adultery & that's offensive to those who have been deeply betrayed. You were clearly taken advantage of & abused by your affair partner. That's the difference & it's a HUGE difference. At the very START you make the CHOICE to be flattered & start down that path....because of what transpired you needed to be treated very gently. 

I've never heard a story like yours!

WS fall into awful selfishness & entitlement. It's NOT a fluffy love story! They often convince themselves that it is! Until they face how abusive, cruel, just HORRIFIC their choices have been they can't climb out of the indulgent pit they have dug themselves into!! They MUST be harsh on themselves BEFORE they can clear the 'fog' & TRULY accept what they've inflicted on their loved ones. It's ALL about empathy. Something they HAD to lack to do what they did.

A WS needs to HATE what they became to be able to truly change back into a decent, moral, EMPATHIC person....or it's just more justifications. "Poor, poor ME!" is often what allowed them to make that series of horrific choices.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

@ShatteredStill Your last post spoke to me a bit more than the others. Thank you for the compliments; there's really no other way to be but an unshakable romantic, is there? Even if you don't believe in romantic love, there's still romance in other things, like tea and novels.

Perhaps I _do_ miss the core of infidelity, though in general I have a very hard time placing blame on anyone for anything. The only times I think I've ever really considered anything unforgivable had to do with the OM. Once when he did things to his daughter in front of me (and just the way he treated her in general) and once when a friend of mine demanded I facebook-stalk the OM so he could get intelligence on him. When I refused to go anywhere near the OM, said friend insulted me and I ran off in tears. When my husband defended me, said friend insulted my husband. We're not friends anymore. He can put me in a precarious position, but I'll never, EVER forgive him for insulting my husband after all he had to go through to protect me.

Anyway, the point is that I'm generally able to see both sides of almost any story, and have compassion for most people. Even if I dislike them or find their actions distasteful or immoral, I can usually understand to some extent what made them feel led to act that way. This does not seem to go over well when I extend this compassion to wayward spouses. I am of the sort of mind that I could go over and put my arms around the gutted, hysterically weeping betrayed spouse, offer them chamomile tea and my handkerchief, and tell them that their spouse's infidelity was cruel and thoughtless and that they have every right to be upset for as long as they need. Then immediately after, I can also comfort the wayward spouse, offer them the same crying shoulder, and tell them I know it's hard seeing the unintended consequences of their actions. 

I would make for a very poor prosecutor, because were I to be at a murder trial, I could comfort the victim and the perpetrator in the same hour! "I know you didn't mean to kill him", I would say, to the shock and horror of the bereaved.

I honestly do not believe that I fail to see how horrible infidelity can be to the betrayed spouse. I really don't. I've read so many personal accounts and seen the tears of disbelief on my own husband's face. I'm sure it can seem like I'm just flippant or callous when I'm sitting here showing "sympathy to the devil" as it were.

But the devil used to be God's favourite angel, and there are so many people crying in courtrooms, be they murder trials or divorce hearings, who honest-to-God didn't mean to kill anybody. I can't help but feel their pain.


----------



## ShatteredStill (Dec 20, 2016)

I'm kind of like you & completely agree with what you've written above!

Even my WH has spoken of how empathic I am to him.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

And by the way @ShatteredStill, @Hope1964, and other betrayed spouses here: I don't mean to hurt you or minimise your pain and anguish. That is the furthest thing from my intent. I hope you understand.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

@EllaSuaveterre what would have happened to your husband if the guy you chose to have an affair had treated you nicely. Say he used all the same lines about how your husband didn't love you and such, but he didn't try to isolate you from your family he just moved you out there and tried to live with you and say he even did a good job and you liked living there. Where would your husband be today? What would his life have been like? How much pain would he have suffered? Do you think he would have loved again? What would he have thought about your relationship? What would he have thought about all the work he put into showing you he loved you?


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> @ShatteredStill Your last post spoke to me a bit more than the others. Thank you for the compliments; there's really no other way to be but an unshakable romantic


Try having the girl you used to romance tell her boyfriend in an email that how funny it is you proposed while she is thinking about him. That will shake a hell of a lot of romance out of your life, believe me. I was the guy leaving notes on the car door, writing songs all that stuff. It really meant nothing to a cheater, it just fed her ego, then when she went on a trip and I couldn't do that so someone else who could stole her away in a months time. Basically, she lived in a fantasy world. Boy did I learn my lesson, the poems and such were what she thought love was. Romance is nice but it's like dessert to the meal of love.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

ShatteredStill said:


> I'm kind of like you & completely agree with what you've written above!
> 
> Even my WH has spoken of how empathic I am to him.


I hope neither one of you are ever called to jury duty. I would love to sell you a car, though.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

sokillme said:


> @EllaSuaveterre what would have happened to your husband if the guy you chose to have an affair had treated you nicely. Say he used all the same lines about how your husband didn't love you and such, but he didn't try to isolate you from your family he just moved you out there and tried to live with you and say he even did a good job and you liked living there. Where would your husband be today? What would his life have been like? How much pain would he have suffered? Do you think he would have loved again? What would he have thought about your relationship? What would he have thought about all the work he put into showing you he loved you?


I would have thought, back then, that my husband would move on and be happy to find someone else to be with who didn't have my past or my problems. But I don't know now. I think he would have suffered greatly. He was shy and lacked confidence before we started going out. I'm sure that would have been made much, much worse. And I'm sure he would have looked back on our relationship in pain and confusion. The night I fell in love with him was when he was talking online with me about his ex-girlfriend. He said, "...And I must have spent 100 pounds on her, and it all meant nothing!" and he started crying, and I remember thinking, "The poor man. I'm going to love him better. He'll move on from her." And he did. If I would have left, after all that and three years of marriage, I don't know that'd he'd _ever_ recover.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I would have thought, back then, that my husband would move on and be happy to find someone else to be with who didn't have my past or my problems. But I don't know now. I think he would have suffered greatly. He was shy and lacked confidence before we started going out. I'm sure that would have been made much, much worse. And I'm sure he would have looked back on our relationship in pain and confusion. The night I fell in love with him was when he was talking online with me about his ex-girlfriend. He said, "...And I must have spent 100 pounds on her, and it all meant nothing!" and he started crying, and I remember thinking, "The poor man. I'm going to love him better. He'll move on from her." And he did. If I would have left, after all that and three years of marriage, I don't know that'd he'd _ever_ recover.


That's what you did. That's cheating. That is why people are offended.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

sokillme said:


> That's what you did. That's cheating. That is why people are offended.


I understand that I _could have_ done that to him, and that my actions _should have_ led to that result. By anyone's predictions, my own included, my husband should be heartbroken and traumatized. He's not. I try to keep an eye on him, and really, he's fine. We talk about it occasionally, and he's just glad I'm safe, and glad I know better now. I'm truly grateful he's such a strong person who was able to carry both of us through that difficult time in our lives and I accept full responsibility for everything I did with the OM that I didn't do solely out of coercion and fear.

But even if he were traumatized, actually _especially_ then, it would still be _vital_ for me to practice daily self-care and to take time out from looking after my husband as often as I could manage without further harming him. If you don't take care of yourself, the guilt will kill you. It seems like that's what you and @Hope1964 want, but it's quite counterproductive. 

I personally can better look after someone else, listen to them more attentively and comfort them more gently, if I go at it from the mindset that I am still a kind, loving person. Believing myself to be fundamentally good rather than "fundamentally unclean" as someone else put it helps me get into "healer mode" where it's easier to compartmentalize my sense of shame and help someone else.

Edit: Also, and it truly baffles me that people don't seem to comprehend this concept, having sympathy for a wayward spouse does not mean their betrayed spouse is somehow less deserving. People react sometimes as though that's what I'm implying, as though we can't show tenderness and compassion to both parties at once.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I understand that I _could have_ done that to him, and that my actions _should have_ led to that result. By anyone's predictions, my own included, my husband should be heartbroken and traumatized. He's not.


The only reason it didn't happen is because of the fact that the OM was an *******, and your Mom blew it up. You still did it. There was a point where you chose the OM over your husband. There were multiple times you did that, and it wasn't out of fear at first. I also have a hard time believing someone who grew up believes in "happily ever after" didn't have some idea that what she was doing was wrong, or at the very least destroying that. 




> But even if he were traumatized, actually _especially_ then, it would still be _vital_ for me to practice daily self-care and to take time out from looking after my husband as often as I could manage without further harming him. If you don't take care of yourself, the guilt will kill you. It seems like that's what you and @Hope1964 want, but it's quite counterproductive.


What I an @Hope1964 and everyone else on here want you to see if you have been pretty much isolated from seeing the results of the pain you caused to your husband. Maybe that is why he could take you back. But your situation is not normal so it has enabled you to focus on your own pain mostly. But it's very far from most's experience. I think maybe you get the logically but you really DON'T get that emotionally. This seems to be the same way you didn't get emotionally how love works. Gently, you seem to be stuck in a kind of emotional adolescence about some of this stuff. That's fine but it doesn't make you the ideal person for talking to BS's about this stuff.

For example you not believing that a there are bad people in the world except the OM and someone who was mean to your husband. This is incredibly dangerous for you. It makes you extremely vulnerable to the next OM. You need to understand that there is evil that a great many people in the world don't have your best interest at heart. They do these things not because they are feeling hurt or put upon, or in pain, but because they are selfish and self centered. Most of the WS do what they do for the same reason.

Now if you want to write about this stuff feel free, jld will like your posts, but understand that some of what you say is like twisting the knife in a BS's back. I don't think you do it out of malice, I just think in your innocence you don't understand.

There is a time and a place for sympathy when someone has basically killed some emotionally. The deserve jail not sympathy. But you said it yourself you would have sympathy for the killer, most don't many find that at the very least misplaced or even downright offensive.


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Try having the girl you used to romance tell her boyfriend in an email that how funny it is you proposed while she is thinking about him. That will shake a hell of a lot of romance out of your life, believe me. I was the guy leaving notes on the car door, writing songs all that stuff. It really meant nothing to a cheater, it just fed her ego, then when she went on a trip and I couldn't do that so someone else who could stole her away in a months time. Basically, she lived in a fantasy world. Boy did I learn my lesson, the poems and such were what she thought love was. Romance is nice but it's like dessert to the meal of love.


I would like to point out here that the guy didn't "steal" your girlfriend/fiance. You didn't "own" {so to speak} her. You weren't married. No vows were exchanged. She was ethically and morally able to date {and have her ego fed by} whomever she wanted {as were you} and the other guy simply out competed you for her affections. It didn't and doesn't make her a wayward other than the fact, I presume, that she, you and the other man were all fornicating and other sexual immorality. Absent fornication, this whole episode would not have hurt nearly as much as it obviously did {you're here like 13 years later still lamenting about an old girlfriend}. Them's the consequences of your immoral choices and your own "living in a fantasy world". {and I, myself, was just as guilty and needing the gift of repentance for my similiar premarital sexual immorality so I'm speaking to you with experience, not condescension}.

It wasn't nice for her to commit to you nor, especially, to say "yes" to your marriage proposal with such obvious reservations; and, that lack of kindness is a pretty good indication you simply dodged a bullet while learning some valuable lessons about dating and relationships. 

That scenario is nowhere ~ no how comparable to a being betrayed by a spouse having an marital affair and committing adultery, especially a marriage of several years and a wayward spouse you have children with.


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> @EllaSuaveterre what would have happened to your husband if the guy you chose to have an affair had treated you nicely. Say he used all the same lines about how your husband didn't love you and such, but he didn't try to isolate you from your family he just moved you out there and tried to live with you and say he even did a good job and you liked living there. Where would your husband be today? What would his life have been like? How much pain would he have suffered? Do you think he would have loved again? What would he have thought about your relationship? What would he have thought about all the work he put into showing you he loved you?


If 'if's" and buts, were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas. Speculating about what would have happened if OM were a nicer guy is a fruitless endeavor. Maybe she wouldn't have talked to him at all. Maybe she'd have gotten out earlier. Maybe OM would have dumped her {because that's what nice respectable men do when they realize they are hurting someone}. It doesn't matter, she's home now where God has meant her to be {and hopefully abandoning that wicca stuff}.

Her husband would have been devastated but he'd have gotten over it eventually and moved on to happier days. She, would have ended up miserable. OM's {really any and all affair partners} make horrible relationship partners and never "do a good job" for long. 

The fact her OM was a big jerk is the more the norm than most think. OM's/OW's are terrible persons. Sometimes they can pretend for a long time to appear a better or good alternative but that only makes it harder to extract your wayward spouse from their clutches {should one want to}. 

It matters not HOW an affair ends, only that it ends and the wayward spouse comes home to where they are supposed to be {if that door remains open to them}.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> I would like to point out here that the guy didn't "steal" your girlfriend/fiance. You didn't "own" {so to speak} her. You weren't married. No vows were exchanged. She was ethically and morally able to date {and have her ego fed by} whomever she wanted {as were you} and the other guy simply out competed you for her affections. It didn't and doesn't make her a wayward other than the fact, I presume, that she, you and the other man were all fornicating and other sexual immorality. Absent fornication, this whole episode would not have hurt nearly as much as it obviously did {you're here like 13 years later still lamenting about an old girlfriend}. Them's the consequences of your immoral choices and your own "living in a fantasy world". {and I, myself, was just as guilty and needing the gift of repentance for my similiar premarital sexual immorality so I'm speaking to you with experience, not condescension}.
> 
> It wasn't nice for her to commit to you nor, especially, to say "yes" to your marriage proposal with such obvious reservations; and, that lack of kindness is a pretty good indication you simply dodged a bullet while learning some valuable lessons about dating and relationships.
> 
> That scenario is nowhere ~ no how comparable to a being betrayed by a spouse having an marital affair and committing adultery, especially a marriage of several years and a wayward spouse you have children with.


Exactly I feel all this pain and I am not even married with kids. How much worse it must be for them. How much worse is it for someone who is married. I am so lucky I avoided it. This was only my first love and it affected me so much that I still post about it 13 years later, just to put it in context and to help others. How much worse and destructive is it for someone to stay married to someone who did that to them. 

Once again since you can't really substantiate your stance you just try to invalidate people who disagree with you. Actually it isn't even trying to prove your point, it's just that you don't like mine so you try to discredit me and call my experiences invalid. Look even if I was never cheated on I would still have opinions on it and what is the healthy course of action. That's how life works.

I really don't care if you think my experience is valid or not.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> It matters not HOW an affair ends, only that it ends and the wayward spouse comes home to where they are supposed to be {if that door remains open to them}.


With you yes, it's not so much the aftermath how healthy the potential of the marriage is, or really the BS will be in the marriage, it's more about the marriage staying together. Your Catholic right?


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Exactly I feel all this pain and I am not even married with kids. How much worse it must be for them. How much worse is it for someone who is married. I am so lucky I avoided it. This was only my first love and it affected me so much that I still post about it 13 years later, just to put it in context and to help others. How much worse and destructive is it for someone to stay married to someone who did that to them.
> 
> Once again since you can't really substantiate your stance you just try to invalidate people who disagree with you. Actually it isn't even trying to prove your point, it's just that you don't like mine so you try to discredit me and call my experiences invalid. Look even if I was never cheated on I would still have opinions on it and what is the healthy course of action. That's how life works.
> 
> I really don't care if you think my experience is valid or not.



Now if you want to write about this stuff feel free, Maxo/Arnold will like your posts, but understand that some of what you say is like twisting the knife in a *REAL* BS's back. I don't think you do it out of malice, I just think in your innocence you don't understand. {near word for word quote of your words above discrediting the Ele's opinions even though her opinions actually belong here more than yours, in my opinion}


Staying married isn't "worse and destructive" to me or the hundreds of couples I've helped recover their marriages. Angels sing for our repentance and we give all the glory to God. My wife is awesome and I'm so lucky to have her in my life. We are both so grateful we made it through that time in our lives and now we share our experiences with others to, hopefully, help them avoid the same pitfalls or, if it already happened, to pick up the pieces and put them back together again better than before. 

Also didn't say your pain was less than, just different and certainly more self-inflicted and hypocritical. It's just AFTER actually taking a vow of "in sickness and in health, in good times and in bad times", then living a life with someone for several years, sharing a history, sharing the birth of your children and becoming "one" that maybe taking on the hurt and pushing past it for a repentant spouse is a bit more conceivable than simply getting dumped by your girlfriend because she chose someone else. You'd have been a fool not to leave her whereas I'd have been a fool not to have given my wife, marriage and family a shot at recovery {especially considering how great it's turned out ~ because at the time I had no idea what I was doing other than just not deciding to divorce each day/month we went along}

It's a bond that goes way past what you seem capable of understanding {which is incredible since you claim to be married now ~ isn't your wife offended that you're carrying on like this about an ex-girlfriend ~ seems very disloyal to be writing about your love for an ex-girlfriend}.

It's also not that your opinions are invalid. They just don't belong here, IMO, because you've never been actually been "the man in the arena".



Theodore Roosevelt in Paris said:


> *The Man in the Arena: Theodore Roosevelt in Paris, April, 1910:
> *
> It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> With you yes, it's not so much the aftermath how healthy the potential of the marriage is, or really the BS will be in the marriage, it's more about the marriage staying together. Your Catholic right?


It's ALL about how healthy the marriage will become for both the BS and the WS to me. I wouldn't have stayed married "just for the kids", even though, many times I think "trying" "just for the kids" is a good enough reason to start. I also believe a two parent home, if it can be peaceful and without continuing adultery, is better than divorce in many situations. The consequences of divorce to children are just much steeper than most people realize. They wouldn't have to wait until the kids were in college but get the youngest to age 16 maybe would be better than divorce in most situations. 

I wasn't one of those. I wasn't that thrilled with our marriage before then either, so I was certainly not willing to go back to anything resembling that with a cup of adultery on top. 

Every marriage has "potential" but if a wayward spouse remains in sin and heading towards reprobate, it's not healthy to "try" to save them for more than a few months {should one choose to try}. I've successfully guided many betrayed husband's through a "try" period then a divorce filing, divorce and even subsequent remarriages. Just recently got an email from a guy in Atlanta that I helped through his divorce. He remarried and his new wife is now expecting his/their first child. My point is, the guys that come here are mostly looking for help to save their marriages and I feel TRYING, in the most time efficient and decisive "tough love" manner with exposure and getting in there and really fighting to save your spouse results in either a chance to actually restore it or a successful divorce, in the quickest amount of time. Trying and failing to save your spouse is much better, IMO, than NOT trying and wondering after the divorce if it might have been different had you fought for it. My wife wasn't garbage to be thrown away but I'd have let her walk away in sin after giving it my best to save her from such misery and soul sickness. 


I celebrate Guy Fox Day {not Catholic}


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I would have thought, back then, that my husband would move on and be happy to find someone else to be with who didn't have my past or my problems. But I don't know now. I think he would have suffered greatly. He was shy and lacked confidence before we started going out. I'm sure that would have been made much, much worse. And I'm sure he would have looked back on our relationship in pain and confusion. The night I fell in love with him was when he was talking online with me about his ex-girlfriend. He said, "...And I must have spent 100 pounds on her, and it all meant nothing!" and he started crying, and I remember thinking, "The poor man. I'm going to love him better. He'll move on from her." And he did. If I would have left, after all that and three years of marriage, I don't know that'd he'd _ever_ recover.


Ella, I think this shows a big difference in your thinking and in mine. I think you take much more responsibility for your husband than I do for mine. And my husband does not expect me to take any responsibility for him.

I know you indicated you are the sub in your relationship. But that willingness to take responsibility for the other seems more like a dominant to me.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> And by the way @ShatteredStill, @Hope1964, and other betrayed spouses here: I don't mean to hurt you or minimise your pain and anguish. That is the furthest thing from my intent. I hope you understand.


I wish the people you are discussing with here could offer you the same respect and compassion, Ella. You have been an example of maturity in this conversation.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Quality said:


> she's home now where God has meant her to be {and hopefully abandoning that wicca stuff


Please don't bring my religion into this. I've been a pagan for more than half my life.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

jld said:


> Ella, I think this shows a big difference in your thinking and in mine. I think you take much more responsibility for your husband than I do for mine. And my husband does not expect me to take any responsibility for him.
> 
> I know you indicated you are the sub in your relationship. But that willingness to take responsibility for the other seems more like a dominant to me.



Perhaps I am both; perhaps I am neither. But when I'm not desperate for nurturing and healing myself, I find it very therapeutic to offer compassion and emotional support to others- those to whom I can relate.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Quality said:


> It's also not that your opinions are invalid. They just don't belong here, IMO, because you've never been actually been "the man in the arena".


So he hasn't lived with a woman for 10, 15 years and had a ceremony and a piece of paper marking their love. That just means less history lost. And yes, Quality, he _might_ be in less pain than you, but his posts belong here too because it's the same _kind_ of pain. Betrayal.

I know it can feel invalidating to have someone who has had less trauma than you be allowed into a place of healing. But his being here, talking about his pain, doesn't make your pain any less valid.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

sokillme said:


> The only reason it didn't happen is because of the fact that the OM was an *******, and your Mom blew it up. You still did it. There was a point where you chose the OM over your husband. There were multiple times you did that, and it wasn't out of fear at first. I also have a hard time believing someone who grew up believes in "happily ever after" didn't have some idea that what she was doing was wrong, or at the very least destroying that.


You're right. I did flirt with the OM. I did allow myself to act on feelings of infatuation, lying to myself that I wasn't really doing anything wrong. Of course I was. I take responsibility of that. That part is all on me.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> So he hasn't lived with a woman for 10, 15 years and had a ceremony and a piece of paper marking their love. That just means less history lost. And yes, Quality, he _might_ be in less pain than you, but his posts belong here too because it's the same _kind_ of pain. Betrayal.
> 
> I know it can feel invalidating to have someone who has had less trauma than you be allowed into a place of healing. But his being here, talking about his pain, doesn't make your pain any less valid.


Personally I think quality's dismissal of my pain shows why he is so forcefully advocates for R. He probably just doesn't feel the pain of betrayal the way others do. 

I believe the first time it happens to you causes the most trauma because you have no context to understand it, or that you will get over it. The logistics are much harder with a marriage and with kids and money involved. The long term ramifications are absolutely much worse that makes having it happen when you are married much worse even if this is the 5th time it happened to you. 

Thanks for the defense though Ella. I was in no means implying that you shouldn't post on here by the way, I was just trying to help you understand why some BS are disturbed by your post. Personally I am always impressed by your kindness.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

jld said:


> Ella, I think this shows a big difference in your thinking and in mine. I think you take much more responsibility for your husband than I do for mine. And my husband does not expect me to take any responsibility for him.
> 
> I know you indicated you are the sub in your relationship. But that willingness to take responsibility for the other seems more like a dominant to me.


Do you expect your husband to take responsibility for you? You seem to very much think husbands are responsible for wives happiness it seems to be a long running theme in all your posts. Assuming you do why is that, is it because of the gender?


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Personally I think quality's dismissal of my pain shows why he is so forcefully advocates for R.


I don't "forcefully advocate for R", nor do I dismiss your pain as I pointed out earlier. I just think recovery is possible in most situations, and if someone comes here wanting to recover being told that recovery is impossible and unhealthy, in particular, by a poster that's never been in the arena, is a ridiculous assertion. It's borderline a lie in the face of the fact recovery happens all the time. Sometimes they aren't great recoveries but many other times they are.




sokillme said:


> He probably just doesn't feel the pain of betrayal the way others do.


Maybe that could be a "which came first, the chicken or the egg" debate. Maybe my pain has completely dissipated because we recovered so well??? Maybe that's a side effect of real deep and lasting marital recovery?

But then again, maybe there are lots of people more capable of processing and overcoming such trauma. I've never held my wife's infidelity over her head, just as Jesus doesn't hold my repented sins over my head. I/we don't focus on what we lost but, rather, focus on what we've learned and gained from the traumatic life experience. God has blessed us in so many way that I'm so very grateful to remain married to her. 



sokillme said:


> I believe the first time it happens to you causes the most trauma because you have no context to understand it, or that you will get over it. The logistics are much harder with a marriage and with kids and money involved. The long term ramifications are absolutely much worse that makes having it happen when you are married much worse even if this is the 5th time it happened to you.


And yet, you "got over it" and are now supposedly happily married to someone else. Many others "get over it" through the process of repentance, forgiveness and recovery while others "get over it" by divorcing and moving on. All valid paths that happen all the time. 



sokillme said:


> Thanks for the defense though Ella. I was in no means implying that you shouldn't post on here by the way, I was just trying to help you understand why some BS are disturbed by your post. Personally I am always impressed by your kindness.


She wasn't really defending you. You may yet be too inexperienced on infidelity forums to understand that pandering pain sympathy is just another way of invalidating a posters opinion. It's like saying, "look at me and how nice I am while I say ~~ "there, there, betrayed spouse, I understand you just posted that mean opinion because you are hurting and in such pain". Then again, maybe you do understand board politics because you stroked her admiration spot by disingenuously expressing how you are "always impressed by her kindness" just a couple posts after telling her how mean she was being to BS's and attacking her husband with "what if" scenarios. Besides, if her husband were posting you'd be telling him how recovery with Ella would be impossible so it's not like you believe in her or really any wayward becoming kind, trustworthy and healthy people.

And, likewise, I've just been trying to help you understand why some BS's are disturbed by your posts, inexperience and obvious anti-hope & anti-TAM "coping with infidelity" agenda.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Quality said:


> She wasn't really defending you. You may yet be too inexperienced on infidelity forums to understand that pandering pain sympathy is just another way of invalidating a posters opinion. It's like saying, "look at me and how nice I am while I say ~~ "there, there, betrayed spouse, I understand you just posted that mean opinion because you are hurting and in such pain". Then again, maybe you do understand board politics because you stroked her admiration spot by disingenuously expressing how you are "always impressed by her kindness" just a couple posts after telling her how mean she was being to BS's and attacking her husband with "what if" scenarios. Besides, if her husband were posting you'd be telling him how recovery with Ella would be impossible so it's not like you believe in her or really any wayward becoming kind, trustworthy and healthy people.


How exactly is sympathy akin to invalidation? They are the opposite! One must first understand someone's pain, thereby validating it at least in some aspect, before they can show sympathy. And I don't doubt @sokillme would say the very same thing to my husband as he has said to other betrayed spouses here- that is, to leave me as fast as possible. Perhaps, sokillme, you should examine why it is that you can extend mercy to a wayward spouse after you get to know them, but not before.

Also, @MattMatt and @EleGirl, this thread has gotten way off topic but I don't want to stop the conversation. Can we change the thread's name to something like, "Waywardness and Empathy" or some such?


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Sorry the thread had gotten badly off topic.

If you feel that a thread covering "waywardness and empathy" would be a good idea, please start such a thread


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> How exactly is sympathy akin to invalidation? They are the opposite! One must first understand someone's pain, thereby validating it at least in some aspect, before they can show sympathy. And I don't doubt @sokillme would say the very same thing to my husband as he has said to other betrayed spouses here- that is, to leave me as fast as possible. Perhaps, sokillme, you should examine why it is that you can extend mercy to a wayward spouse after you get to know them, but not before.
> 
> Also, @MattMatt and @EleGirl, this thread has gotten way off topic but I don't want to stop the conversation. Can we change the thread's name to something like, "Waywardness and Empathy" or some such?


I whole wholeheartedly believe in mercy. Being in a marriage is a privilege, mercy has nothing to do with it. As I have stated many times on here, the default position for BS should be they will have a better life if they leave (yes there are some who are happy, I can point you to a whole lot more that aren't). I advocate for finding better. For moving away from someone who abuses you, just as I would a spouse that physically abuses you. I see not difference, abuse is abuse. 

AS far as the WS is concerned I have never said that they were never worthy of love again. They must first do the hard work and earn the privilege. I believe they should be forgiven if they do and would hope they would change. Everyone makes mistakes. My position is based on what the BS has to accept and what they need to sacrifice to say in a relationship with someone who abuses them so, in general. I do not believe that love is enough to make a good healthy marriage, it is only one of the foundations. Another one that is just as important is trust. Respect, honor, and decency are important as well. Most of those are missing if someone cheats on you. People can take my advice or leave it. That's all it is is advice. Quality doesn't like it. Lots of people on here agree with me.


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

jld said:


> I think their chances of having a lasting, meaningful marriage are much greater than if he had followed the "standard" post-affair advice given here.


I know this is a bit late but I was sent an update on 20years {the guy who wrote that article y'all liked}

Appears the affair with 20years friend never actually ended and OM was even the Godfather of his own biochild. She ended up posting on that wayward forum too {name was "unforgivable"} after 20years busted her again and was divorcing her; and, unbelievably, she actually got sympathy at that place. 20years divorced her and actually already remarried in August 2015. {notice the slight change to his posting name}



20yearsdone on marriage advocacy forum Feb 2016 said:


> Won't be around here much. .But I'm pleased to announce I did get remarried last August. Both of us are from past failed marriages due to cheating. Very happy and working the blended family issues. The EX ghost issue more on her mind than mine - in fact not on mine. Only on hers because of business related to kids with EX. Annulment still in process but should be approved soon according to a meeting I had late last year.


----------

