# Is this it?



## a_beaten_man (Oct 17, 2020)

I'm not sure what I'm looking for here. I don't know if I just want to get all this out or if I'm searching for advice. A little of both I suppose. My wife and I have been married for 31 years. It's been a good marriage I guess with the typical ups and downs. We have three gown boys that love us .There was a couple of instances of betrayal early on in the marriage but we worked through it and I think we healed ok. This current situation started about 12 years ago. I had an opportunity to work at a very good company with huge potential for both advancement and money. The only problem was that I would have to work long and inconvenient hours for the first year or so. After that I could curtail and stabilize things. We discussed it and we both decided that it was too good of an opportunity to pass up. I started the job and it seemed everything was going well. I was doing incredibly well at work and when I came home and told her about my successes she seemed genuinely thrilled. The money was rolling in. We were able to travel. I was able to buy her the things that I'd always wanted. And we were building a tidy nest egg for our family. I guess things started coming off the rails toward the end of the first year. She says she was getting tired of me being gone so much and was becoming frustrated and lonely. All her friends were out doing family things and she felt stuck at home with the kids while I worked long hours. Of course I didn't take it as seriously as I should have. After all I thought things were going great. Stupidly I thought it was just a rough patch and she'd get over it. Big mistake I know.

Then after a few months she stopped complaining. I figured it was okay now. That was until I noticed that she was talking to some guy online. He was younger than her, still in college and on some sports team. I managed to read some of their past conversations and saw how he was blatantly chatting her up and flirting. I didn't tell her I discovered this "relationship." I decided to watch to see how far this had gone. It was a week later that I saw she had given him a "boob flash" and had made a date with him to go out. That's when I confronted her. There were a lot of angry and hurt words thrown around. She said she told me multiple times that she was lonely but I wouldn't listen. I realized she was right about that but it was no excuse for what she had done. After I verified that this was the only "relationship" that she had started and that it hadn't progressed past what I already knew we sat down and decided to try to fix our marriage. We both took responsibility for what we'd done. I quit the job with long hours and began to devote as much time as possible to my wife and our boys. She in turn gave me access to everything, hid nothing and generally was an open book in order to rebuild my damaged trust. We read books, we took time for us as a couple. We learned to communicate better. And our marriage became stronger, possibly even stronger than it ever was. Except for in one area. Intimacy.

From the time we were first together we both realized we had high sex drives. It was great that we matched so well. My wife wasn't adventurous per se but she wasn't prudish. She initiated sex almost as much as I did. She would wear lingerie without me asking. In fact she got off on seeing my eyes bug out so she made it a game to see how big of a reaction she could get out of me. During sex nothing was totally off the table although she limited anal sex to blue moons We experimented with things like light bondage, a bit of S & M, and other "tabboo" activities. This all stopped when I started working long hours and the worst part is that I never noticed. After we started to put our marriage back together I tried all sorts of things to rekindle things. It's not like we didn't have sex. We did. But there was no passion from her. She didn't do the things she used to. She still seemed to enjoy the physical act but it seemed the desire wasn't there. She said that she was very hurt, not so much by my working long hours but because I ignored her when she tried to tell me how miserable she was. She said she felt I had abandoned her and she felt detached from me. She was also more than a little freaked out at how easily she was tempted into almost throwing our marriage away by cheating. She told me I had to give it time for her to get back to where she was.

That was over ten years ago. Since then I have tried many (it seems like thousands) of ways to fix this (I'm a fixer.) I ramped up the romance, I took her out more, I made sure to give her one on one time (I think that was her love language or the top need on her list or whatever.) I even started writing her poetry. But it never came back. We still have sex maybe once a week but we've also gone weeks without. Once I decided to see if I didn't initiate sex would she do it like she used to. After four months of no sex I think I had my answer. We've talked about it on multiple occasions. Each time she vowed to try to do better. Each time the sex got more frequent for a week or so and then dropped off again. This past week was maybe the worst it's been for a while. She outright rejected me three time, the last time she even tried to push me away. She says she loves me and I know she does but there is no desire for me in her. I thought about it a lot yesterday and I came to the conclusion that it wasn't ever coming back. It wasn't broken, I couldn't fix it, it was dead and buried. That revelation had me crying like a baby. She tried to throw me pity sex and I of course turned it down. In fact the way I feel I really don't want to have sex with her since I know she really doesn't want me. Last night I was laying in bed with her and I had to leave. I've never felt so far away from her or so lonely in my life. I'm thinking of setting up a bed in the guest room so I don't have to sleep with her tonight. I don't know what to do. Part of me says to shut up and be thankful she'll still allow me to use her body. Most of me is disgusted by the thought of lowering myself to that level. I wish I didn't know how great things could be but I do. It was one thing when I had hope that things might return to the way they were. But now that I realize there's no hope I really have no interest in "coupling" with her. I feel like my world is burning down around me and I don't know what to do. She seems perfectly fine to go on the way things are. In every other way our marriage is great. But I want to be more than her best friend and partner. I want to be her lover like I was before.

Anyway like I said maybe I just wanted to get all this out. I'd ask for advice but I can't imagine any suggestions for things I've already not tried already I suppose I should just thank whoever takes the time to read this drama filled drivel and online pity party.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Sounds to me she's detached. I don't think you can get her back. Sit her down and have a frank conversation, find out what she really feels and if you can go forward together. With grown up sons, maybe it's time to go separate ways... sorry, I don't have a solution.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

You don’t say what age you are but I’m guessing mid to late fifties. You have still a lot to offer a woman who would desire you so don’t try to convince yourself to settle for pity sex. 
You seem fairly certain that your wife isn’t cheating but you need to be one hundred percent sure. 
At your age you have to make a decision, are you going to spend the rest of your life knowing that your wife doesn’t want you except for your paycheck or are you going to try to take back control of your life.


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## Cromer (Nov 25, 2016)

My story is way too long to recount here. But, I left a 30-year marriage because it had been a sexless situation for years. I'm in my 50's and the kids were grown. It was the best life decision I've made in a very long time. Other than marrying my current wife. My life is so much happier now.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

How old are you both? I am guessing mid to late 50's? Early 60's? I would suggest that you talk to her seriously about how deeply this situation is affecting you and that the marriage itself is at risk.
Maybe if she knows how close things are to a divorce she may want to try changing things. Some good marriage counselling may help.

The work situation was hard. However, you both agreed you would take that job on knowing that the first year at least would be very busy, and you both benefitted in many ways from the money.

Personally I wouldnt end an otherwise good marriage at that stage of life for one thing, but we are all different.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Does she even work now???

She's totally using you for financial security.

She has some pretty serious character flaws. You both agreed the job with long hours the first year was something that was worth it, she was enjoying the financial fruits of your labor then she ended up giving "boobie shots" to another dude inside an emotional affair, and holds that time against you. She gets lonely and goes to-- cheat. 

Your situation sounds miserable. I'd leave, personally.


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## midatlanticdad (Jul 24, 2018)

a_beaten_man said:


> I'm not sure what I'm looking for here. I don't know if I just want to get all this out or if I'm searching for advice. A little of both I suppose. My wife and I have been married for 31 years. It's been a good marriage I guess with the typical ups and downs. We have three gown boys that love us .There was a couple of instances of betrayal early on in the marriage but we worked through it and I think we healed ok. This current situation started about 12 years ago. I had an opportunity to work at a very good company with huge potential for both advancement and money. The only problem was that I would have to work long and inconvenient hours for the first year or so. After that I could curtail and stabilize things. We discussed it and we both decided that it was too good of an opportunity to pass up. I started the job and it seemed everything was going well. I was doing incredibly well at work and when I came home and told her about my successes she seemed genuinely thrilled. The money was rolling in. We were able to travel. I was able to buy her the things that I'd always wanted. And we were building a tidy nest egg for our family. I guess things started coming off the rails toward the end of the first year. She says she was getting tired of me being gone so much and was becoming frustrated and lonely. All her friends were out doing family things and she felt stuck at home with the kids while I worked long hours. Of course I didn't take it as seriously as I should have. After all I thought things were going great. Stupidly I thought it was just a rough patch and she'd get over it. Big mistake I know.
> 
> Then after a few months she stopped complaining. I figured it was okay now. That was until I noticed that she was talking to some guy online. He was younger than her, still in college and on some sports team. I managed to read some of their past conversations and saw how he was blatantly chatting her up and flirting. I didn't tell her I discovered this "relationship." I decided to watch to see how far this had gone. It was a week later that I saw she had given him a "boob flash" and had made a date with him to go out. That's when I confronted her. There were a lot of angry and hurt words thrown around. She said she told me multiple times that she was lonely but I wouldn't listen. I realized she was right about that but it was no excuse for what she had done. After I verified that this was the only "relationship" that she had started and that it hadn't progressed past what I already knew we sat down and decided to try to fix our marriage. We both took responsibility for what we'd done. I quit the job with long hours and began to devote as much time as possible to my wife and our boys. She in turn gave me access to everything, hid nothing and generally was an open book in order to rebuild my damaged trust. We read books, we took time for us as a couple. We learned to communicate better. And our marriage became stronger, possibly even stronger than it ever was. Except for in one area. Intimacy.
> 
> ...


oh wow this sounds so so similar to my situation 

check out my thread in considering divorce or separation 

i am moving out nov1

i wish you the best 

it does help to get it out 

there is good advice offered on this forum


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

a_beaten_man said:


> I'm not sure what I'm looking for here. I don't know if I just want to get all this out or if I'm searching for advice. A little of both I suppose. *My wife and I have been married for 31 years*. It's been a good marriage I guess with the typical ups and downs. *We have three gown boys that love us* .There was a *couple of instances of betrayal early on in the marriage* but we worked through it and I think we healed ok. This current situation started about 12 years ago. I had an opportunity to work at a very good company with huge potential for both advancement and money. The only problem was that I would have to work long and inconvenient hours for the first year or so. ......
> 
> Then after a few months she stopped complaining...... I didn't tell her I discovered this "relationship." I decided to watch to see how far this had gone. ...After I verified that this was the only "relationship" that she had started and that it hadn't progressed past what I already knew *we sat down and decided to try to fix our marriage. We both took responsibility for what we'd done. I quit the job with long hours* and began to devote as much time as possible to my wife and our boys. ..... And our marriage became stronger, possibly even stronger than it ever was. Except for in one area. Intimacy.
> 
> ...


OK, I am 71, been married to the same woman for 49 years and although there has been no infidelities that I am aware of, I was in a similar situation, with two major exceptions, my wife had a low sex drive and my wife had lots of sexual hang-ups. My wife told me that she had no sexual desire for me. I did the wait for her to initiate sex and it didn't happen. I nearly destroyed my health by staying up late so that I was absolutely sleep deprived and exhausted when I went to bed. That was the only way I could share a bed with my wife without being physically and emotionally torn apart by being so close with no intimate contact.

Ultimately, I came to the point where I couldn't go on like that any more and decided I needed to change things. I promised myself that I would be in a loving sexual relationship with a woman (my wife or someone else after I divorced my wife) within 2 years. I then read just about every relationship book I could find. I decided that I needed to fix myself so that I would be suitable for a new healthy relationship. I didn't want to just bounce into another failed relationship. I wanted to learn from my mistakes. I also wanted to try to fix our marriage and if we couldn't, then I would heal and move on.

My advice to you is based on what I learned to heal myself and ultimately how my marriage was saved.

First, understand that you cannot change your wife, her sex drive, or her desire for you. Only she can do those things, and only if she wants to. You can, however, do things that may motivate her to make changes in her life, but only if she wants to. The danger is that the changes she may make may make your relationship better or worse. It is her choice and not yours. I strongly recommend you read and study two books, Glover's No More Mr. Nice Guy and the companion book by MW Davis, The Sex Starved Marriage. Both are about your and my situation in life, but from slightly different perspectives. The advice complements each book in ways to heal yourself in a way that will lead you to happiness.

MW Davis feels that you are both part of the problem and that you need to change the dynamic in your relationship so that your wife has to change the way she treats you. She calls this doing a 180. I call it the Monty Python approach, or "now time for something completely different." If something doesn't work, try the opposite to see if that works, if it causes a change in her behavior that you like then keep it up. Then change it a little more to see if that improves things even more. If not try something different, if so keep that up and do more minor changes until she treats you the way that you want. But first you have to really forgive her and the pain she has caused you. For example, whenever my wife felt like she might want to have sex with me, she would pick a fight with me by punching my hot buttons. This allowed her to control the emotional distance between us. Ultimately, I forgave her and refused to fight. She would do something, like insult me, I would just smile and look at her and ask her why she said what she did. It does take two to fight. She then apologized in a confused way without quite creating the emotional distance she had subconsciously hoped for.

Glover on the other hand identifies a Nice Guy as a man who thinks he is only validated if he is desired and loved by a woman. He has no core self. A Nice Guy is full of covert contracts. I will do the dishes if you will have sex with me. Only he never tells his W what the "deal" is and when he does the dishes and she doesn't have sex, he gets mad and pouts. Then he doubles down and not only does the dishes, but the laundry, shopping, etc. so she has to have sex with him. When that doesn't work he gets even more made and doubled down again. This is a path to total frustration.

Both Davis and Glover talk about "getting a life." This is code words for getting in shape, challenging yourself to do manly things that give you a sense of confidence and pride in yourself. Confidence and not being clingy are sexy to most women. There are lots of other things they both suggest, and I highly recommend those books to you. As a former Nice Guy, you sound like a Nice Guy and that is not a complement.

After I changed, lost 50 pounds, started dressing better, took up some sports I stopped doing when we were first married and did well at them, her attitude toward me changed. I also then started to be a more loving partner. I no longer was sexually clingy, and had forgiven her of all the hurt she caused. At that point I suggested marriage counseling with a sex therapist. My wife agreed, but it stretched her to the breaking point as we still were in a sex starved marriage. The ST helped my W work through her anger issues toward me and eventually helped us negotiate a new sex life. Not everything I wanted, but something I could live with and remain married to her. It was more than she wanted, but less than I wanted and something we could both barely live with.

I wish you luck. You may or may not be able to find happiness or save your marriage, but at least you will have tried. I would not recommend moving into another bedroom unless you discuss it with a sex therapist.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Loyal, steadfast and stubborn.
Those are your strengths.

Your faults are that you are steadfast and stubborn. 
You refuse to capitulate when the cause has been obviously lost for most of your marriage.

Stop blaming your wife for who she is. 
Blame yourself for tolerating this marital situation for so long.

Come to grips that things will never get better with this woman.

Do both of you a favor and divorce her.
Let her find that better man and you that loving lady.


_Nemesis-_


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

Livvie said:


> She has some pretty serious character flaws. You both agreed the job with long hours the first year was something that was worth it,


This is altogether typical. You bust your a$$ to make life better for her and your children. She rewards you with adultery, giving other men "boob shots". "Serious character flaws" is quite accurate, she's ungrateful, entitled, and selfish. She also needed to grow up and be an adult instead of a sniveling dependent child, a "help-meet" for her husband instead of a ball-and-chain who needed to be propped-up and carried through life.



Livvie said:


> She's totally using you for financial security.


Correct. And, it has probably been this way since the beginning. She deserves the just and fair recompense of having to bust her own a$$ for the rest of her life. Unfortunately, the courts won't see it that way, they will force you to maintain her just like you have been for all these years.

I don't know what to tell you. You are damned if you stay, and damned if you go. You have every good right to end your marriage, if that's what you choose, but I have no advice one way or the other, I think they are both bad.



a_beaten_man said:


> I want to be more than her best friend and partner.


I don't blame you for wanting more, and I think you are kidding yourself about being either her "friend" or her "partner". She has been NEITHER of these things to you. To her, you are a pack-mule whose job it is to carry all her provisions, and her.


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## manowar (Oct 3, 2020)

You're a male drone. Read the Predatory Female. It was written by an airline pilot in 1986. You'll never view marriage the same again. You'll learn about the 5 faces, the invisible man, the matriarchal system, whether slavery is the natural state of man, and lots more!!


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

You need to study up on the 180 and implement it.
You need to start focusing on you. Get some new clothes, a new hair style. Go the extra mile to present as someone looking to upgrade themselves and their life.
Find a good attorney and start lining your ducks up. Find out what divorce will look like and look at strategies to minimize the hit. You don't necessarily have to file at this point; however come up with an action plan for a 12 and 24 month departure in regards to sticking away some money away, having an exit plan, etc.
Let things fester awhile. See what the wife does. She will either want to work on the marriage or will resort back to her old pattern.
If she does the latter, use technology to your advantage. Stage some VAR's or wireless cameras around. If something nefarious is going on, use this knowledge to position yourself to gather the goods in a manner which would be admissible in a court. Think in terms of leveraging a favorable exit.
The bottom line is that she needs to be on defense, and you need to be on offense. You need to take charge and set the terms, parameters, etc for the marriage you want. If she is truly into you, she will respond favorably. Either way, you will find out what you have.
You need to read, learn, and live this book:









Robert Glover No More Mr Nice Guy : Robert Glover : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive


Self Help



archive.org


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## a_beaten_man (Oct 17, 2020)

Thank you for all the responses. I'll try to reply to each of them.

For those that say I'm her financial security I won't disagree. I always have and always will have the capability to make significantly more than she does. I will say that as soon as the kids were old enough she did go right out and get a job. She is still at the same place and has advanced steadily over time. When I left the job where I was working long hours I had to take a substantial pay cut. I was still making plenty, more than enough to support us in a comfortable lifestyle. Over the past several years I have gradually curtailed my day to day involvement in the business and now I pretty much make my own hours. All in all I still make more than her but the gap is not as much as it was. Since she knows I am well established and can make more as I need to I agree that in her mind I am still her financial stability even if our current incomes don't reflect that as much.

I do believe that she loves me a lot and I feel like I am her best friend and partner. I also realize the irony of that statement since if she cared that much about my wants and feelings she would do more to help me address the unfulfilled need. She says the right things but her actions don't back this up. I've been reevaluating the last decade or so and see in clear detail that I have been the only one to actually work at the problem. I won't say it's all her problem because I do feel like I set the stage for the problems that occurred by not listening to her when she was in fact communicating her dissatisfaction with our marriage. That is no way excuses her for what she did and almost did. She did do all the things necessary to rebuild trust (if it can ever truly be totally rebuilt.) She deleted all passwords on her computer, cell phone etc and installed had me install tacking software so I could always verify her location. Whenever we weren't together she checked in so I would be aware of what she was doing and where she was. She outed herself to her family and our close friends and in front of me she implored them to report to me any suspicious behavior on her part and asked them to "kick her azz if she ever looked like she was going to betray me again" She deleted her Facebook account, email and other such platforms that could be used to cheat. We use a couples email and Facebook account since then so there can be no elicit communication. Btw, I did not ask her expressly to do this, we read it together and she chose to take action to try to alleviate any worries I had over her faithfulness going forward.

That's one reason I'm so damned frustrated at her lack of action about intimacy. She's shown she will take action for other things but not this?

In Absentia, It does seem like she can't seem to connect with those feelings so detached is probably the right word. We've talked about this issue more times than I can count. She claims not to know why she can't feel the same way again. When I press her she cries because she says she is frustrated too. And she is not usually a crier.

Andy & Diana, you are right we are both in our mid 50's. And I don't want to divorce her. I love her with all my heart and we've come so far in every other aspect of our marriage but this one.

Suncmars, you nailed it. I am loyal, steadfast and stubborn. It's why I've been successful in many areas of my life. It's also why I believe our marriage is still together although she really has worked as hard as I have in all other aspects but this one. I have almost no hope left she will ever truly permanently address this and it's why I'm in crisis mode.

Livie, I think you are right, she does have some serious character flaws at least where this issue is concerned. She has stepped up in many situations but not here. Like I said if I didn't know how good it could be I suppose I could be satisfied with the way things are. But I do and I'm not. I wonder if she is subconsciously still punishing me for what happened all that time ago. Her parents divorced when she was young and her father gradually abandoned her blowing off visitation weekends all the time and eventually ignoring her altogether. Maybe she is unknowingly equating me with him?

Young at Heart, can I ask, did you communicate your two year timeline to her? Did she believe you? We've talked about divorce before, usually when I get to this point. I want her to know that if this doesn't change something will damnit but I don't know how to make her listen. It's my fault for tolerating this for so damned long. Also, how did you forgive her. I'm so pissed off right now I can't imagine forgiving her for letting it get to this point.

manowar, I'll read the Predatory Female as you suggested but I must admit it scares the crap out of me.

To all this that suggested No More Mr Nice Guy and The Sex Starved Marriage. I will immediately study those like my life depends on it. I must admit at first my thought was I've done everything for so long I'm not doing anything more. But then I realized that this would not be for her, it's for me. One question, I assume the 180 is to do exactly the opposite as I've been doing. Is there more to it? Is it in one of those books?


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

a_beaten_man said:


> I'm not sure what I'm looking for here. I don't know if I just want to get all this out or if I'm searching for advice. A little of both I suppose. My wife and I have been married for 31 years. It's been a good marriage I guess with the typical ups and downs. We have three gown boys that love us .There was a couple of instances of betrayal early on in the marriage but we worked through it and I think we healed ok. This current situation started about 12 years ago. I had an opportunity to work at a very good company with huge potential for both advancement and money. The only problem was that I would have to work long and inconvenient hours for the first year or so. After that I could curtail and stabilize things. We discussed it and we both decided that it was too good of an opportunity to pass up. I started the job and it seemed everything was going well. I was doing incredibly well at work and when I came home and told her about my successes she seemed genuinely thrilled. The money was rolling in. We were able to travel. I was able to buy her the things that I'd always wanted. And we were building a tidy nest egg for our family. I guess things started coming off the rails toward the end of the first year. She says she was getting tired of me being gone so much and was becoming frustrated and lonely. All her friends were out doing family things and she felt stuck at home with the kids while I worked long hours. Of course I didn't take it as seriously as I should have. After all I thought things were going great. Stupidly I thought it was just a rough patch and she'd get over it. Big mistake I know.
> 
> Then after a few months she stopped complaining. I figured it was okay now. That was until I noticed that she was talking to some guy online. He was younger than her, still in college and on some sports team. I managed to read some of their past conversations and saw how he was blatantly chatting her up and flirting. I didn't tell her I discovered this "relationship." I decided to watch to see how far this had gone. It was a week later that I saw she had given him a "boob flash" and had made a date with him to go out. That's when I confronted her. There were a lot of angry and hurt words thrown around. She said she told me multiple times that she was lonely but I wouldn't listen. I realized she was right about that but it was no excuse for what she had done. After I verified that this was the only "relationship" that she had started and that it hadn't progressed past what I already knew we sat down and decided to try to fix our marriage. We both took responsibility for what we'd done. I quit the job with long hours and began to devote as much time as possible to my wife and our boys. She in turn gave me access to everything, hid nothing and generally was an open book in order to rebuild my damaged trust. We read books, we took time for us as a couple. We learned to communicate better. And our marriage became stronger, possibly even stronger than it ever was. Except for in one area. Intimacy.
> 
> ...


So you both decide that this job was best for both of you. Then she decided she was lonely and tried I guess to find a f-buddy. She then checked out of the marriage and is not coming back.

I love how she blames you for her not being happy. Thank goodness she wasn’t married to someone in the military, she would definitely have been cheating on them.

ALL of this is on her. Best of luck being in a marriage were your wife hasn’t given a damn about you in many years.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

a_beaten_man said:


> Thank you for all the responses. I'll try to reply to each of them.
> ......
> 
> To all this that suggested No More Mr Nice Guy and The Sex Starved Marriage. I will immediately study those like my life depends on it. I must admit at first my thought was I've done everything for so long I'm not doing anything more. But then I realized that this would not be for her, it's for me. One question, I assume the 180 is to do exactly the opposite as I've been doing. Is there more to it? Is it in one of those books?


This is the 180:
180 for Betrayed Spouses


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## a_beaten_man (Oct 17, 2020)

jlg07 said:


> This is the 180:
> 180 for Betrayed Spouses


Thanks


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## manowar (Oct 3, 2020)

a_beaten_man said:


> There was a couple of instances of betrayal early on in the marriage but we worked through it and I think we healed ok.



major red flag. Do you think you caught all of her betrayals? Perhaps. But there may have been others going way back. She may have gotten complacent when you caught her since its been so easy to get away with it. She could have emails, phone that she didn't tell you about. Confident she can talk her way out of it. Pull the lonely card while you are breaking your ass to provide a stable lifestyle for your wife. which she apparently doesn't appreciate. Do Not accept responsibility for this BS. You are upholding your end of the marriage bargain while she's showing her tits to some college guy. That's phucked up! You have been whipped into behaving and responding this way. You think it's normal to be her plow horse.

You don't seem to understand female nature. Or the red pill. Read the Rational male and go to the rational male blog and videos. Females are duelists. Alpha phucks/beta bucks. It's a primary principle of how they act. Why did she marry you? What was she like before the marriage? Many women marry their second and third choices for a financial and stable lifestyle. they then seek the other guys that they desire sexually. This may be a real eye-opener for you. 

Don't tell her anything. Time to do serious due diligence to find out what she's been doing all these years. Sounds like you have some suspicions. Any red flags over the years. Going out with friends, leaving the house with clothes in a bag, trips without you, Vegas with girlfriends, girls night out, staying at a friend's house often. Any suspicious behavior that you recall? Look at her phone records, emails, and credit cards. Try to go back 10 years or as far as you can. On the credit cards look for hotel bills, sexy lingerie, sex toys that kind of ****.

*A good PI is probably the way to go here*. He will dig up all kinds of crap, if it's there, he'll find it. You won't.





a_beaten_man said:


> we both realized we had high sex drives


Did she just shut this down? Maybe for you she did.



a_beaten_man said:


> She said that she was very hurt, not so much by my working long hours but because I ignored her when she tried to tell me how miserable she was. She said she felt I had abandoned her and she felt detached from me. She was also more than a little freaked out at how easily she was tempted into almost throwing our marriage away by cheating. She told me I had to give it time for her to get back to where she was.


What about you busting your phucking balls for 31 years. Tell her you're thinking of walking. Women found you attractive at that long term job you went to. How bout dressing nice and going out at night without her. See how she reacts then. She's got you trained like a seal dude! Read the ****ing Predatory Female OK. LEARN what's going on. Because you don't get it.

Your problem is everything is about your princess. You have NO FRAME. YOU GO right into her frame and allow her to dictate the narrative.



a_beaten_man said:


> It's not like we didn't have sex. We did. But there was no passion from her. She didn't do the things she used to. She still seemed to enjoy the physical act but it seemed the desire wasn't there.


 Easy. She's not attracted to you. You are a mule for working not a hot guy for sex. She probably finds that elsewhere.What little you get from her is her way of performing her wifely duty. 




a_beaten_man said:


> (I'm a fixer.)


Oh cshit. You're in trouble. Not a turn on for her and the BLUE PILL methods you utilized. Poetry. Really. Where did you learn that one watching a romantic comedy? Your Blue PILL methods drove her further away.




a_beaten_man said:


> She says she loves me


 Yep she loves you but is not in love with you. She saves the sex for someone else that gets her hot. You don't.




a_beaten_man said:


> She was also more than a little freaked out at how easily she was tempted into almost throwing our marriage away by cheating.


 No she wasn't. She just wants you in the dark as she has for 31 years. that she stepped out that one time early in the marriage. remember she's got you trained and knows that you'll believe just about anything she tells you. 



a_beaten_man said:


> That revelation had me crying like a baby.


Dont ever let a woman see you cry. Your attraction as a man and lover falls off a cliff. However, your status as a plow horse remains intact.


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## manowar (Oct 3, 2020)

Tdbo said:


> Stage some VAR's or wireless cameras around.


 You have to do this. I think she's cheating and has cheated in the past more than you are aware. I'll leave it at that. I hope Im wrong. But you came here voluntarily asking for advice.

As a FIXER -- maybe you can do this. VAR in the car as well. Use GPS tracking.

BTW as a fixer, Im sure she has you fixing all sorts of stuff around the house. STOP BEING HER FIXER. GO 180! Tdbo's advice is good.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

a_beaten_man said:


> That's one reason I'm so damned frustrated at her lack of action about intimacy. She's shown she will take action for other things but not this?


Exactly. People take action about things THEY WANT. They don't take action about things they DON'T GIVE A $HIT ABOUT.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Has she had her hormones checked? If she hasn't already been through menopause, she's fast approaching it. Peri-menopause and menopause have been known to do a number on some women's libido. It may not be just you for whom she has no passion.

If the hormones are good, then she's seeing you as more of a brother or good friend than lover. Can that be changed? Possibly. Whatever you are currently doing to meet her emotional needs - just stop. Do not approach her for sex. Do not eagerly accept any advances made by her. She'll probably try to put out just to get things back to normal for her comfort level. Play hard to get. Make her work for *your* passion.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

As always, she's a gold digger, she just wants his paycheck, she's cheating, she doesn't love you, etc., etc., etc. AS A WOMAN the thing that jumps out to me with age and desire level is HORMONES. Given your age now and the time frame, she was most likely going through early menopause and then menopause. Hormones are huge in a woman's desire. As a woman with hormone issues, approaching that age myself - I can tell you my drive has plummeted recently. There is literally nothing I can mentally do about it. And it's not that I don't want to, it's just not...…….there. There are times that the thought of intimacy almost makes me nauseous to think about. I feel horrible when that happens, and it's a total mind game with myself to realize that that thought is completely out of my control. Please have her hormones checked if she's willing. It really could be that simple of an answer.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

LosingHim said:


> As always, she's a gold digger, she just wants his paycheck, she's cheating, she doesn't love you, etc., etc., etc. AS A WOMAN the thing that jumps out to me with age and desire level is HORMONES. Given your age now and the time frame, she was most likely going through early menopause and then menopause. Hormones are huge in a woman's desire. As a woman with hormone issues, approaching that age myself - I can tell you my drive has plummeted recently. There is literally nothing I can mentally do about it. And it's not that I don't want to, it's just not...…….there. There are times that the thought of intimacy almost makes me nauseous to think about. I feel horrible when that happens, and it's a total mind game with myself to realize that that thought is completely out of my control. Please have her hormones checked if she's willing. It really could be that simple of an answer.


Eh. And I say this as a woman in her 50s. This woman is a cheater. So no, she doesn't get a free pass because "menopause". The problem is her massive character flaws.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I concur with the hormone thing. I'm 58yo myself and I'm not saying I have no desire for intimacy (I mean, I'm a newlywed so come on!!), but instead of it being a PHYSICAL urge or itch, it has switched moreso to being a mental desire to want to be close. Switching from "the itch" to cerebral can trip some people up, and for us ladies it just feels incredibly different. 

So if all else seems to be "on track" toward recovery and reconciliation, and if she seems to WANT to figure out what the deal is and address it, I'd start with a physical specifically addressing hormone levels and menopause. There may be hormone replacement that will increase desire, and there may be something physiological that is causing this lack of libido. After physical is ruled out, I'd suggest a sex therapist just to see if maybe she's put up a mental block on herself to have no desire for anyone so she's never, ever tempted again.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

Livvie said:


> Eh. And I say this as a woman in her 50s. This woman is a cheater. So no, she doesn't get a free pass because "menopause". The problem is her massive character flaws.


I'm not saying it's a free pass. But her cheating was also 12 years ago and OP has stated their relationship is great otherwise. Having hormone issues myself (and a husband who cheated and having cheated myself) I can sit there in complete bliss with my husband but have NO desire. Even when I WANT to because I know it hurts my husband. I'm not saying this is THE answer. But it definitely could be a part or even all of it. If it's something that hasn't been explored, it's worth looking into.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Your post reads like a long list of why your not going to hold your wife accountable while you yourself try to do all the repair work. You have the wrong approach.

Listen .... I like women. I REALLY like women. But what you have been programmed to believe by society is not the way their sexuality works. Notice that I didn’t say anything negative. I’m only saying that your current belief system isn’t working....and for obvious reasons.

You need to relearn female sexuality... or better yet... human sexuality.

The most difficult thing to come to terms with will be that your wife is indeed NOT sexually attracted to you anymore and that it is in many ways your own fault.

You need to relearn yourself when it comes to interacting with a woman as a lover and not just a provider.


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## manowar (Oct 3, 2020)

Stop Being a Beaten Man. Now it's your time to Live. *You earned it*.

Forget your frigid wife. She is a dependant at best. Parasite at worst. 

My recommended course of action.

1. You have a lot more going for you than you think. You might not be the best looking guy but you have high status and money. That raises your attraction level a lot. Your SMV - sexual market value is much higher than your wife's.

2. Get red-pilled. Read my recommended list. Watch youtube videos by 'cars and entrepreneurs' rich cooper. This is a good place to unplug from your blue pill matrix.

3. Get a stylish haircut for a man your age. Buy a new wardrobe. Do not buy trendy. Go conservative. Dress stylish but for a man your age.

4. Reduce allowance to your wife by 25%. If she objects tell her to Fk off. The rules have changed.

5. Get a gym membership. Work out on your body.

6. New car. You've earned it. Not for the wife. It's your car.

7. Go out and get the sex you want. Tell your wife. Tell her she is boring. 

8. Set up a dating profile. 

9.You don't know how many years you have left. Now it's about you. Your horse plow days are over.

10. Follow the advice above to nail your cheating wife. Get the PI. Install the VARs.. I think it runs deeper than you think. A rookie cheater isn't going to show her tits to a much younger man.

11. She won't divorce you. That's her fear. She needs to keep sending you out to plow the cornfields.

12. Stop Complaining. Stop the broken man routine. MAN the PHUCK UP!


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

manowar said:


> Forget your frigid wife.


Since when being menopausal equates to being "frigid"?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

If she really is menopausal and it's not an excuse (see my wife... lol), then, as others are saying, it's worth investigating further...


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> Since when being menopausal equates to being "frigid"?


It doesn't, but this man's wife literally pushes him away. She's frigid with _him_. She thinks he's not going anywhere.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> If she really is menopausal and it's not an excuse (see my wife... lol), then, as others are saying, it's worth investigating further...


Some guys really fall for the menopause excuse. It's amazing.

While changes do come with menopause, a woman who cares about her husband and wants to remain sexually connected to him and have a good marriage will ACT VERY differently in response to these changes than some of the stories we read on this forum.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Livvie said:


> Some guys really fall for the menopause excuse. It's amazing.
> 
> While changes do come with menopause, a woman who cares about her husband and wants to remain sexually connected to him and have a good marriage will ACT VERY differently in response to these changes than some of the stories we read on this forum.


I totally agree with this. I fell for it, but given our history, it doesn't really surprise my wife used it as an excuse.


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## EveningThoughts (Jul 12, 2018)

a_beaten_man said:


> There was a couple of instances of betrayal early on in the marriage but we worked through it and I think we healed ok.
> 
> This current situation started about 12 years ago. I
> 
> ...


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

You've got a lot of things intersecting here, so I don't think there is any one solution to your situation.

First, you've got a wife who helped you make the decision to work long hours for greater pay for a limited time, and then didn't follow through on her part of the effort needed to accomplish that. You taking that job sounds like it was a mutual agreement, and you both went into it with eyes open about the sacrifices you BOTH would have to make for the increased income. However, when push came to shove, she didn't have the ability to be a good partner about it. She didn't even last a year. So she's just not the type of person willing to work hard and endure hardship for long-term gain. Keep that in mind when evaluating her ability to commit to a long-term marriage. I bet you could look back on previous situations where she was called on to make a sacrifice, and she wasn't very good at sustaining it.

Second, you've got a wife with a high sex drive (or you did). It sounds like she had some cheating issues in the past because of it, but apparently she didn't LEARN from them. So her high libido was never well-grounded in loyalty for you. It was just that you were a convenient sexual partner for her. When your agreement to work the new job forced you to be distant, a situation SHE AGREED TO SUPPORT, she couldn't handle the slow-down in sexual activity and started seeking a new partner. That's another character flaw in HER. And what's happened to her sex drive since? She either isn't interested in getting it back, or she's channeling it elsewhere. Both of those are big problems!

Third, she destroyed your trust in her. This ultimate betrayal is extremely hard for a marriage to recover from. Especially when there are past instances suddenly brought back to mind. It makes you doubt the whole relationship, and how much of her was ever genuine. This isn't just a sexual issue while the rest of the marriage is fine. It affects the whole marriage. You've experienced the fallout ever since.

Fourth, you have, or at least had, terrible communication. It sounds like when you try to address this with her, she just cries, which no doubt shuts down the conversation. Tears can be very manipulative, even unintentionally. You love her, you don't want to make her cry, so you stop discussing intimacy or divorce when she sobs. Ergo, her tears get her what she wants: shut down discussion of changing the current situation. Have you tried counselling, together, or separate counselling for her? Having a neutral third party help you negotiate conversation could help. And she definitely needs to develop more insight into herself.

Fifth, there's some truth to the libido changes for women at a certain age. Good partners will both be understanding AND seek out solutions. So yes, you may need to understand that there may be diminishment in duration or frequency. But she also needs to understand she can't just ignore the problem that developed or expect you to be the only one making sacrifices to maintain the marriage. Oh look, there's that word sacrifice again. Remember up top where she's not good at doing it?

And lastly, there's a point of no return sometimes for sexual desire among partners. You may still love each other as a long-term non-sexual bond, like siblings or best friends, but people expect more from a marriage. Even as you continue to love her in a philia sort of way, you've lost the eros type of love that marriage should have. And you still crave that. But does she? I'm not sure, from your description. Either she's got it somewhere else, or she's given up on it. But she needs to be honest with you about which it is, so you can decide what you want to do about it. Right now, she's just crying whenever you bring it up so you'll shut up, faking eros for a week or so to placate you, and then giving up again. This has caused you to lose eros love for her in return. It might not come back. Certainly it won't without BOTH of you working towards it. Which you haven't got.

The responsibilities of marriage (need to earn income, household chores, parenting, etc) are killer on the benefits of marriage (intimate time).

I'm a fixer too, so I know where you're coming from. But marriage is one of those things that needs BOTH partners involved in maintaining it. It's not like any other group project that can still succeed if someone doesn't pull their weight. And when one person sabotages the project, the onus is on them to put in the most effort to get it back on track. You can't do this work for her.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Yeah, we need some clarification on those early betrayals.


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## a_beaten_man (Oct 17, 2020)

Ok first thank you all so much for this feedback. I can sometimes be a stubborn person but I'm not stupid. I know what I've been doing isn't and has never worked as far as our intimacy is concerned. Again, all other aspects of our marriage are great but what I'm discovering is that when you NEED intimacy (and I mean sex with emotional connection not just the physical act) then the rest of the relationship cannot stand no matter how good it may be. For this that may have missed it we are having sex but I would firmly classify it as duty sex or pity sex. I've since told her that I'm no longer interested in fake intimacy and if we can't find the real thing again I'd prefer we go our separate ways. I'm pretty sure she doesn't believe me.

I've started to read the books suggested here and all I can say is Holy Crap! When we were trying to rebuild our damaged marriage we read His Needs, Her Needs, The Five Love Languages, etc. I do credit those books with helping us in other areas of our marriage. But I never read these books and I'm starting to see a definite pattern of behavior on my part. I'll keep reading for sure.

Some asked about the past acts of sexual indiscretions and incidents. I'll explain them here.

Yes they were her. When we were first married we spent a weekend staying at her family's friend's house. He was an older man, 40's to our 20's. I caught her kissing him late at night I flipped out she cried and we left. When we got home she said that she had had a bit too much to drink and he'd forced himself on her. She thanked me for jumping in and stopping it. She told her family what he'd done and he was ostracized from that point on. I did find out that this was not the first time he'd done this with someone. I was extremely pissed off that I had not been informed of his past behaviors because I would never have associated myself with that turd.

A few years later after our first son was born we went camping with some guys I knew from a club I was a member of and their families. I had gone to bed and was in the tent with our son. She said she was going to use the bathroom and would be right back. It seemed like it was taking a longer time than was necessary but I didn't want to leave our son alone. Finally I decided to leave the tent while keeping eye contact on the tent to make sure he was alright and try to see up the path to the restroom area. I saw her running down the hill toward me crying. She was hysterical. I got her in the tent and she told me that one of the guys we were camping with had forced himself on her. I tried to find the bastard but he was nowhere to be found. We packed up and I took her to the hospital. They did a rape kit and she definitely had some bruising and other injuries. Doctors said it showed she was indeed forced as it appeared she fought back. When questioned by the police he said it was consensual and she asked for it rough. Unfortunately since there were no other witnesses the case was dropped. Just so nobody thinks I let it go he paid dearly for touching my wife. I'm not a violent man but I know people who are and they don't like rapists either.

A year and a half later there was another incident. We were at a party with several couples and friends. There was a lot of alcohol, pot and other "substances" floating around. I must have passed out because I woke up and was alone. I went looking for my wife and found her in bed with another guy sleeping. He had on only his boxers and she had on her bra and panties. She claimed to not know how she ended up there and she swore nothing had happened. He said that he had crashed in bed and she just fell in next to him but he was so wasted he just rolled over. I called B.S. on this one and we almost split. If it weren't for my son I would have. We both agreed that we weren't acting like responsible adults and parents so no more drinking, partying etc. From that point on we were as dry as a desert. I was still young and naïve and really didn't know what to do so I rug swept it.

It was an eventful first five years of our marriage. From that point on we devoted ourselves to our family and each other. From then until I started that job we were intensely intimate like we were on a daily honeymoon. But because of these incidents early in our marriage she knew I had at one time been already half out the door which is why I think she worked so hard to rebuild my trust. Well at least as it can ever truly be rebuilt.

For those that are wondering if she's cheating now I'm not foolish enough to say she is definitely not. I've been reading other's stories here and on other sites and one thing I've come to understand is that there is no 100% certainty. I'm going to start observing this with a more critical eye going forward and see if any red flags surface. He laptop and desktop are open to me although I haven't check in some time. I will now but I won't tell her. She isn't protective of her phone so I can check that whenever I choose, again without her knowledge. Does she have a burner phone? I doubt it but I'll keep an eye out. The one place I really can't check on her is at work. I can't imagine how she could be cheating at work but again I'm not wearing rose colored glasses. I'll have to think if there a way to check on her there. I really don't think she's being unfaithful and I don't like snooping on her. But better that than having nagging doubts.

I'm going to continue reading and watching. We had a bit of a blowout this morning. I read some of the posts suggesting getting her hormones checked. I asked her to do this for me and our marriage. She told me in no uncertain terms that she will not. She is very anti doctor and follows a natural holistic approach. I told her that the current situation is intolerable and I won't put up with it anymore. I read the 180 and I think maybe now that I'm refusing substandard sex and intimacy it would be a good time to start implementing some of those changes.

If I've forgotten to respond to anyone's question or comment please let me know. It's not intentional. I'm kind of a mess right now.


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## Kaliber (Apr 10, 2020)

@a_beaten_man, couple of my friends they had the exact same issue as you (Are you one of them?!!), I advised them this book:

The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011 Kindl - Athol Kay

It saved their sex life and more!
Read it, it will help you!

Glover's No More Mr. Nice Guy is very good, you need to read it regardless of your problems!
But I would start with Athol Kay to implement the MAP approach!

You will have to make a timeline for yourself (example: 12 - 24 months) and never share it with your wife, all the MAP process and any other work should be done without her known about your plans or else it will not work!


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## syhoybenden (Feb 21, 2013)

Did you ever consider that you might have gotten someone beaten up who did not deserve it?

Too many instances of it never really having been her fault. Poor baby.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Does your wife go to the dentist or wear eye glasses? Did she get checked for stds after the rape? So much for the holistic approach.


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## manwithnoname (Feb 3, 2017)

Her hormones are fine.

She has no passwords because she doesn't use these methods....she just finds someone.

Your early on stories would have me DNA testing kids.


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## Kaliber (Apr 10, 2020)

a_beaten_man said:


> I've started to read the books suggested here and all I can say is Holy Crap!


Yup, same here, I was completely in the dark, I really didn't know and understand the female behavior, I made lots of mistakes, I was Mr. "Nice Guy" and didn't understand women, and it destroyed my relationships.
One very important book was a shock to me, BIG shock, more then Holy Crap!
What Women Want When They Test Men: How to Decode Female Behavior - By Bruce Bryans

Women test men even after a 30+ year marriage, and they do it subconsciously, without them planing it or controlling it, and boy if you fail their tests!
I bet you when you read this book you will find how many tests you failed and made your wife *friend zone you*!
It's a small book, you can finish it in two days, but man, are we in the dark!
The author also advises the readers to read *Glover's No More Mr. Nice Guy and Athol's (AND) **The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011*
So these books are connected and supplement each other!



a_beaten_man said:


> Some asked about the past acts of sexual indiscretions and incidents. I'll explain them here.
> 
> Yes they were her. When we were first married we spent a weekend staying at her family's friend's house. He was an older man, 40's to our 20's. I caught her kissing him late at night I flipped out she cried and we left. When we got home she said that she had had a bit too much to drink and he'd forced himself on her. She thanked me for jumping in and stopping it. She told her family what he'd done and he was ostracized from that point on. I did find out that this was not the first time he'd done this with someone. I was extremely pissed off that I had not been informed of his past behaviors because I would never have associated myself with that turd.



Here I would have to disagree with you, judging from what you told us about her actions, your wife has very weak boundaries, so I don't think the guy forced himself on her, he may have a habit of making advances on women, but I bet that your wife reciprocated, and to save herself she brushed it off by claiming he forced himself on to her!



a_beaten_man said:


> A few years later after our first son was born we went camping with some guys I knew from a club I was a member of and their families. I had gone to bed and was in the tent with our son. She said she was going to use the bathroom and would be right back. It seemed like it was taking a longer time than was necessary but I didn't want to leave our son alone. Finally I decided to leave the tent while keeping eye contact on the tent to make sure he was alright and try to see up the path to the restroom area. I saw her running down the hill toward me crying. She was hysterical. I got her in the tent and she told me that one of the guys we were camping with had forced himself on her. I tried to find the bastard but he was nowhere to be found. We packed up and I took her to the hospital. They did a rape kit and she definitely had some bruising and other injuries. Doctors said it showed she was indeed forced as it appeared she fought back. When questioned by the police he said it was consensual and she asked for it rough. Unfortunately since there were no other witnesses the case was dropped. Just so nobody thinks I let it go he paid dearly for touching my wife. I'm not a violent man but I know people who are and they don't like rapists either.


Your wife has some very weak boundaries, there are many (SO MANY) stories about wives claiming to be raped just to find out it was really a just a rough sex act!
So I don't know about this, I have doubts!
Yes, real stories, false claims, it's sad, but unstable and women with very weak boundaries do many crazy ****es and lie to get out of it. and you wife's history doesn't help here either!



a_beaten_man said:


> He had on only his boxers and she had on her bra and panties. She claimed to not know how she ended up there and she swore nothing had happened. He said that he had crashed in bed and she just fell in next to him but he was so wasted he just rolled over. I called B.S. on this one and we almost split. If it weren't for my son I would have. We both agreed that we weren't acting like responsible adults and parents so no more drinking, partying etc. From that point on we were as dry as a desert. I was still young and naïve and really didn't know what to do so I rug swept it.


Rug weeping is very bad, I guess you know now 



a_beaten_man said:


> It was an eventful first five years of our marriage. From that point on we devoted ourselves to our family and each other. From then until I started that job we were intensely intimate like we were on a daily honeymoon.


This is the breaking point when her attraction changed, it's when she started flirting with younger men and sending flash nudes, I believe at this particular moment in time she started checking out and lost her sexual attraction to you. She has been having a wondering eyes for young studs and other men, she also (_and usually the case_) comparing you to them!
That's why you need to start implementing the MAP (Athol's Kay approach) and the 180!



a_beaten_man said:


> For those that are wondering if she's cheating now I'm not foolish enough to say she is definitely not. I've been reading other's stories here and on other sites and one thing I've come to understand is that there is no 100% certainty. I'm going to start observing this with a more critical eye going forward and see if any red flags surface. He laptop and desktop are open to me although I haven't check in some time. I will now but I won't tell her. She isn't protective of her phone so I can check that whenever I choose, again without her knowledge. Does she have a burner phone? I doubt it but I'll keep an eye out. The one place I really can't check on her is at work. I can't imagine how she could be cheating at work but again I'm not wearing rose colored glasses. I'll have to think if there a way to check on her there. I really don't think she's being unfaithful and I don't like snooping on her. But better that than having nagging doubts.


You are correct, there is no 100% certainty, that's why the best approach is to keep mouth shut and eyes open!
And for her work, your best option is to higher a good PI, and you should do your own internal PI, like installing a VAR (voice activated recorder) a Sony brand is good one and a good size memory card, install it (under the driver seat) in her car, you need two of them to switch them around.* Before using it search here and on the web how to use it effectively!*

A PI can check on her when she is at work, morning and lunch time, and when leaving!
They can get you results (good or bad) in almost a week.
One of the best effective ways that some betrayed spouses do is to fake a one weekend travel and highers a PI, this is one of the best approaches to catch a cheater if they are cheating!
One guy (here on TAM) discovered that his wife was having a *10 year affair* after doing this, basically she was living a double life, she acted normal just like your wife, but looking back after the discovery he admitted that there were signs but he didn't see it as a problems back then, because every thing was almost perfect!

But hopefully she is not cheating, but the signs are not in your favor!



a_beaten_man said:


> I'm going to continue reading and watching. We had a bit of a blowout this morning. I read some of the posts suggesting getting her hormones checked. I asked her to do this for me and our marriage. She told me in no uncertain terms that she will not. She is very anti doctor and follows a natural holistic approach. I told her that the current situation is intolerable and I won't put up with it anymore. I read the 180 and I think maybe now that I'm refusing substandard sex and intimacy it would be a good time to start implementing some of those changes.


The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011 - Athol Kay gives many advises and how to start a plan called the MAP, look into it, it's basically either fixes your sex life or sets you up and make you ready to move on successfully and have a very happy sexy life! (with or without her)


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## manowar (Oct 3, 2020)

Agree with *100% w/ MANWITHNONAME* above. She's good at hiding it. I hate to say it but I think you are the last one to find out. All the telltale signs are there. You think you know of each occurrence. I think you are aware of only the tip of the iceberg.

Hire the PI and install the VARs. Expose her. She disrespected you too many times in front of friends. those friends at the party probably know more of her activities than you do. Break from the delusion. You've been brainwashed to believe your role is to support her. Take control of your life. She's predatory. Read the book. You'll see. You are an intelligent guy. You just don't see what's going on here. She will never admit the truth to you. You need proof when you confront her. She needs you. You have the power and smarts to do this. She can't make it without you that's why you're still around. She loves you for what you can do for her. She's doesn't love you in the same way that you love her. read the book! you're getting a crash course here.


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## EveningThoughts (Jul 12, 2018)

syhoybenden said:


> Did you ever consider that you might have gotten someone beaten up who did not deserve it?
> 
> Too many instances of it never really having been her fault. Poor baby.


She was witnessed running away crying hysterically. There was confirmation by the authorities that she was bruised and internally damaged, and that she fought back.

But you still think she asked for it and the other guy could be innocent?

Unbelievable.
The amount of victim blaming on this site is sickening.

The other instances might be questionable, but that doesn't mean she wasn't physically and sexually assaulted this time. Even if she went hoping for a quick meet up, it still turned physically violent. 
Even cheaters wouldn't want violently painful sex, where the other party decides to damage and bruise them, holding them against their will so that they have to fight to stop the painful damage.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

No one heard her screaming because she didn't? And, why not?


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## manowar (Oct 3, 2020)

Plus she thinks that you don't have the balls and awareness to catch her. She knows your a nice guy and thinks she can do whatever the hell she wants. YOU ARE NO MORE PLAYING THAT NICE GUY ROUTINE because that's what beaten men do. They beg, they cry, they profess their love and admiration. they pretend things are fine. They delete the humiliation like it never occurred, they try to fix, they live a lie.

You are getting stronger and gaining more confidence since your first post. Break out of that shell! Act. Stop responding. Take charge. believe it or not she will respect you for it. She does these things because she lost her attraction for you. You are invisible to her as a man.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Livvie said:


> Some guys really fall for the menopause excuse. It's amazing.
> 
> While changes do come with menopause, a woman who cares about her husband and wants to remain sexually connected to him and have a good marriage will ACT VERY differently in response to these changes than some of the stories we read on this forum.


Thank you for saying this. How it’s handled is the important part, but some of us lose track of that.
Would be interesting to explore, maybe in its own thread, how that happens and what the antidote is. 

Offhand, for me, I suspect sometimes it’s a mix of wanting to do right, for someone you’ve cared about, and years of conditioning and acceptance that one’s own happiness isn’t the most important thing.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

syhoybenden said:


> Did you ever consider that you might have gotten someone beaten up who did not deserve it?
> 
> Too many instances of it never really having been her fault. Poor baby.


Not true.

He had sex with a married woman, a fellow camper. He had the option to say no, even if she initiated.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

SunCMars said:


> Not true.
> 
> He had sex with a married woman, a fellow camper. He had the option to say no, even if she initiated.


I've noticed the men on this forum often focus violence and destruction upon the sex partner of their cheater, and not so much the actual cheater. I can't figure it out. 

A stranger doesn't give a **** about other parties' marriage vows. It's the cheater who betrayed men should be so angry at and disappointed in, but time after time it's deflected towards the person their CHEATING SPOUSE cheated with.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

The problem is men have been told NOT to hit a woman, so it's harder to get your frustrations out about beating the crap out of your cheating wife (or even stating that you'd like to) than it is to talk about beating the crap out of the POS other man.
Also, easier to go after a "stranger" than someone you love, even IF they betrayed you. Takes a while for that love to go away.

I agree though Livvie, YES it is the POSOM fault for knowingly going after a married or otherwise "taken" woman, but by far the biggest betrayal is the cheater.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

a_beaten_man said:


> Thank you for all the responses. I'll try to reply to each of them.
> 
> *Young at Heart, can I ask, did you communicate your two year timeline to her? Did she believe you?* We've talked about divorce before, usually when I get to this point. I want her to know that if this doesn't change something will damnit but I don't know how to make her listen. It's my fault for tolerating this for so damned long. *Also, how did you forgive her*. I'm so pissed off right now I can't imagine forgiving her for letting it get to this point.
> 
> .......To all this that suggested No More Mr Nice Guy and The Sex Starved Marriage. I will immediately study those like my life depends on it. I must admit at first my thought was I've done everything for so long I'm not doing anything more. *But then I realized that this would not be for her, it's for me.* One question,*I assume the 180 is to do exactly the opposite as I've been doing. Is there more to it ? Is it in one of those books?*


Congratulations.

First, My timeline to be in a loving sexual relationship was not communicated to her. It was a promise I made to myself. Only after I had made significant changes in myself and our relationship, did we start sex therapy sessions. It was only after our ST asked my wife in a session what my W thought would happen, and my wife finally said we would likely divorce. Then the ST asked me if I had ever thought of divorce. I told them about my promise to myself and that I had researched divorce laws in our state to determine how long a divorce typically took from start to completion. I told them I was committed to trying to save my marriage, but would not change my promise to myself. They both looked like deer in the headlights. The ST recovered first and said that was reasonable and should give my wife to decide what she wanted.

I didn't care if she believed me. I had reached my limits and this was a promise I made to myself. There was nothing to negotiate in my promise to myself.

How I forgave her was the realization that I was partly at fault. I focused on what I did wrong. I had earlier convinced myself that I was the victim of a frigid woman. I came to the conclusion that I was part of the problem. Then it became easier to understand that it wasn't all her fault. I belief that if you never forgive someone, they own a piece of you. I was working on improving myself and that meant forgiving her. Daily introspection and affirmations, that she was human and made errors, that I had the capacity to forgive and that she would always be the mother of my children helped me forgive her. 

If you don't forgive her you will be damaged goods in any future relationship. I did it for me and my future. As you said this whole thing is for you.

A "180" and "Getting a Life" are code words or defined terms. Both books explain the concepts but differently. It took me really studying both to figure out what I needed to do. You can't change your W, only she can. What you can do is change yourself, change how you will react or the "dynamic" in your relationship. In many respects we program each others responses in marriage. If you W does X and expects you to respond with Y, but you respond with Z, you have changed the dynamic. If she wants a Y response but never gets it by doing X, she has a choice does she keep doing X or must she change herself. That is a 180. It also includes being grounded in ho you are.

Again, whenever my wife started to feel sexually interested in me she would start a fight to regain emotional distance. I stopped responding with anger to the hurtful things she said and did to me. That left her with lingering sexual feelings she had to deal with and confusion on her part that something had changed. Our dynamic had changed.

I stopped being clingy and needy for sex or her attention. I knew (as it was my promise to myself) that I would soon be in a loving sexual relationship. She no longer had the ability to manipulate me by the hint of sex or offering pitty sex. I had a lot to do to Get a Life. Training, fun sports I enjoyed, reading and exercise. I made time for her, but I was finally making time for me. My world did not revolve around her.

Glovers book talks about covert contracts. I was such a nice guy, always making deals, never telling her what they were and then doubling and tripling down, when I didn't get what I had hoped for.

Good luck. I had to heal and change myself. I had to forgive her and treat her better. I needed to do those things so I could prepare myself to be in a better loving sexual relationship, no matter who the woman would be.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Livvie said:


> I've noticed the men on this forum often focus violence and destruction upon the sex partner of their cheater, and not so much the actual cheater. I can't figure it out.
> 
> A stranger doesn't give a **** about other parties' marriage vows. It's the cheater who betrayed men should be so angry at and disappointed in, but time after time it's deflected towards the person their CHEATING SPOUSE cheated with.


First...

A man should never beat up his cheating wife.
(Never beat up any woman that is NOT an imminent threat to his life).

He should dump her, pronto.

Her lover (attacker?) does not get such protections.
Keep in mind, this guy bruised her, gave it to her hard.

And possibly, raped her?
We do not know.

I suspect she told him to go at her roughly in case she got caught. Which she did.
This was the OM's statement.

This fellow camper effed her while her husband was nearby.
This is worthy of an ass kicking, IMO.

If he got his ass beat, that is what he deserved.
If I did this act, I would feel I deserved it and would not file charges.

So...
Yes, both should suffer consequences.

.........................................

Let men be men, do not put skirts on them.
Kilts, however, are OK!


_Are Dee-_


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## a_beaten_man (Oct 17, 2020)

Thanks Young at Heart, I think I understand although my emotions are still so raw it's hard to imagine I'll get there. I'm still reading and looking at ways to change the dynamic as you suggest. I have a home gym that I use pretty frequently so I'm not in bad shape physically. Yesterday I decided to join a gym for my workouts so that I can get out of the house and have some time to myself. I started to disassemble my gym equipment last night. My wife saw me and asked if I was giving up exercising. I told her that it was just the opposite. I am increasing my routine and found that working out at home wasn't enough for me anymore. Yes, I did phrase it just like that. She didn't say anything but I noticed out of the corner of my eye that before she left the room she did pause and stare at me. I'm usually the one that does most of the talking. I guess that it is a byproduct of the marriage books I/we read. Lately I've been less talkative. Our blowout the other night where she refused to have her hormones checked got me thinking and it wasn't positive thoughts. I'm resigned now to the real possibility that we are going to divorce. I actually thought about what we'd split up and how things might go. That was a first for me in a long time, since things were really bad. I also admit that I get worried that if I pull away it will definitely lead to a divorce but I'm starting to learn that type of thinking is exactly what these authors (and you all) are talking about. I need to reprogram myself.

I did check her phone, laptop, desktop etc last night. I couldn't sleep and so I had time to do this while she slept soundly. I admit I was pissed off that she could sleep so well while I felt my world was burning. I didn't find anything suspicious on any of her devices. She is not technically savvy at all. I usually have to clean and fix her electronics when there is a problem. I usually even have to clean her voicemail inbox because she never deletes her old messages and they fill up. On her laptop and desktop she hadn't deleted any of her old temp files and her recycle bin had stuff in it from several months ago. It honestly looks like there just isn't anything there for me to find. I'll keep on being vigilant for red flags and if need be I can look more in depth.

As far as the rape goes, given the previous incident I admit I was hesitant to believe her but she was running down the hill crying hysterically long before she saw me. There's a slight bend coming down the hill so I know she couldn't have known I was there. And I heard her coming long before I saw her so she wasn't doing it for my benefit. I also talked to a few female friends of mine who she doesn't really know all that well and they assured me that she wouldn't go to the police and allow a rape kit to be done if it didn't happen. They said it's very degrading for a woman to go through that so I believe what she said happened did happen. The other two incidents I really don't know what to think about. After we vowed to stop partying and drinking there were no more incidents and she demonstrated strong boundaries, at least for that time period. Of course that ended when she was making a date and flashing her boobs.

I don't feel bad about destroying the rapist. As far as I'm concerned all men who chase married women should be hung. Besides, he knew me so for him to go after my wife was unforgivable regardless how it happened. Frankly I feel like the guy deserved more than a permanently messed up face and a permanent limp. As far as I'm concerned he got off easy.

She still hasn't made a doctor's appointment. I expect that after a while she'll come to me and ask what's wrong. That's her pattern. She'll act like she has no idea even though it's been talked about for many times. This time I'm not going to respond or discuss. I'm simply going to tell her she know what she has to do and leave it at that. The longer this goes on though the less hope I have and the more I think I'm going to get used to the idea that we won't be together soon.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

SunCMars said:


> First...
> 
> A man should never beat up his cheating wife.
> (Never beat up any woman that is NOT an imminent threat to his life).
> ...


I heartily disagree. This man engaged in consensual sex. While I personally wouldn't have sex with a married person, it's not encumbant upon him to adhere to HER marriage vows. It's total misplaced violence and I'd hope there would be assault charges against the husband for it. He needs to police _his own_ marriage and _his own_ wife and if she ****s up, it's she who should suffer the consequences. Being a man doesn't entail beating up someone his wife wants to cheat with, but rather a response to the appropriate person.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Livvie said:


> I heartily disagree. This man engaged in consensual sex. While I personally wouldn't have sex with a married person, it's not encumbant upon him to adhere to HER marriage vows. It's total misplaced violence and I'd hope there would be assault charges against the husband for it. He needs to police _his own_ marriage and _his own_ wife and if she ****s up, it's she who should suffer the consequences. Being a man doesn't entail beating up someone his wife wants to cheat with, but rather a response to the appropriate person.


Until, until.....

It is your man that cheats on you, with that opportunist campy, camping woman.
A woman that light-footed, and smiled around you, for a day or two.

All you would see would be her laughing eyes, that you would wish to scratch out.


_Gwendolyn-_
.....................................................................

I hold dear those that I love.
Hurt them, hurt me.
Take whats mine, I take back my due.

_UlyssesHeart-

..........................................................................................._

I do agree, she is a serial cheat, and an ill minded woman.
It was the violence that he perpetrated on her that upsets me.
He enjoyed and enjoined in the act of leaving those marks, bites and bruises.

Now, if OP had no love in his heart for this...wife, then I could see just letting the POSOM go unscathed.

Ah, I lie.


_Are Dee-

............................................................................................._

On revenge...
It is the principle of the matter, not the principles involved.

A rogue lion that eats into others lives (unjustly), at some point needs to be put down.


_SunCMars-_


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

SunCMars said:


> Until, until.....
> 
> It is your man that cheats on you, with that opportunist campy, camping woman.
> A woman that light-footed, and smiled around you, for a day or two.
> ...


Well, I won’t speak for all women who’ve been cheated on but I saved all my rage for my husband. She didn’t owe me anything. He did.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Openminded said:


> Well, I won’t speak for all women who’ve been cheated on but I saved all my rage for my husband. She didn’t owe me anything. He did.


Your choice, not ours.
You being wise, we not.

Revenge need not be swift, it need be had.


_We are Martians-_


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## Kaliber (Apr 10, 2020)

a_beaten_man said:


> Thanks Young at Heart, I think I understand although my emotions are still so raw it's hard to imagine I'll get there. I'm still reading and looking at ways to change the dynamic as you suggest. I have a home gym that I use pretty frequently so I'm not in bad shape physically. Yesterday I decided to join a gym for my workouts so that I can get out of the house and have some time to myself. I started to disassemble my gym equipment last night. My wife saw me and asked if I was giving up exercising. I told her that it was just the opposite. I am increasing my routine and found that working out at home wasn't enough for me anymore. Yes, I did phrase it just like that. She didn't say anything but I noticed out of the corner of my eye that before she left the room she did pause and stare at me. I'm usually the one that does most of the talking. I guess that it is a byproduct of the marriage books I/we read. Lately I've been less talkative. Our blowout the other night where she refused to have her hormones checked got me thinking and it wasn't positive thoughts. I'm resigned now to the real possibility that we are going to divorce. I actually thought about what we'd split up and how things might go. That was a first for me in a long time, since things were really bad. I also admit that I get worried that if I pull away it will definitely lead to a divorce but I'm starting to learn that type of thinking is exactly what these authors (and you all) are talking about. I need to reprogram myself.
> 
> I did check her phone, laptop, desktop etc last night. I couldn't sleep and so I had time to do this while she slept soundly. I admit I was pissed off that she could sleep so well while I felt my world was burning. I didn't find anything suspicious on any of her devices. She is not technically savvy at all. I usually have to clean and fix her electronics when there is a problem. I usually even have to clean her voicemail inbox because she never deletes her old messages and they fill up. On her laptop and desktop she hadn't deleted any of her old temp files and her recycle bin had stuff in it from several months ago. It honestly looks like there just isn't anything there for me to find. I'll keep on being vigilant for red flags and if need be I can look more in depth.
> 
> ...


@a_beaten_man, believe it or not, your approach of dealing with your situation is the correct approach, build and show high value, it will serve you well, it will even save your marriage, because nothing can stand in front of someone who can just walk away because they know they deserve better and can find better!
Read the books, prepare a life with or without her, when she sees you are willing to move on and find someone better, her female instinct will kick in at full force and her libido will fire up!
Just keep on working on yourself, it will all fall into place!
That's a promise!


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

If he had not caught her (just after the act).
If he had not caught her later that dark night.

With bruise marks on her thighs, on her mons and on her arms.
With bite marks on her neck.
Sucker bites that no blind man could miss.

That camping POSOM marked her.
Her husband would then have witnessed this in the light of the next morning.

POSOM would have fled by then. A big grin on his face.

That no proud man would not react with rage that such a man would mark his wayward wife this way?
Shame!

That POSOM put those marks and bruises where OP's face would soon be.
Aye, a beating was due.

_Are Dee-_


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Livvie said:


> Some guys really fall for the menopause excuse. It's amazing.
> 
> While changes do come with menopause, a woman who cares about her husband and wants to remain sexually connected to him and have a good marriage will ACT VERY differently in response to these changes than some of the stories we read on this forum.


My wife is 52 and has been on HRT for over 10 yrs. If not sick or injured and i have not initiated every other day she comes after me the 3rd day. Was not always that way before the hystorectomy with premenopausal issues.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Livvie said:


> I've noticed the men on this forum often focus violence and destruction upon the sex partner of their cheater, and not so much the actual cheater. I can't figure it out.
> 
> A stranger doesn't give a **** about other parties' marriage vows. It's the cheater who betrayed men should be so angry at and disappointed in, but time after time it's deflected towards the person their CHEATING SPOUSE cheated with.


To me it depends on if other person knew. If he did...he would be considered a clear and present danger to the family unit and delt with as such.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

SunCMars said:


> If he had not caught her (just after the act).
> If he had not caught her later that dark night.
> 
> With bruise marks on her thighs, on her mons and on her arms.
> ...


A "proud" man would hopefully have the wherewithal to know that another party--- random one night stand of his wife--- owes no allegiance to him or to the "marriage", and act accordingly by taking steps to end his marriage instead of focussing on the third party. Especially since it's the belief that she asked the third party to be rough with her, in this instance.

I actually think it's UNMANLY when a husband turns to violence towards a sex partner instead of dealing with the matter at hand, which is his cheating wife and the relationship and what he's going to do next in HIS life.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Livvie said:


> A "proud" man would hopefully have the wherewithal to know that another party--- random one night stand of his wife--- owes no allegiance to him or to the "marriage", and act accordingly by taking steps to end his marriage instead of focussing on the third party. Especially since it's the belief that she asked the third party to be rough with her, in this instance.
> 
> I actually think it's UNMANLY when a husband turns to violence towards a sex partner instead of dealing with the matter at hand, which is his cheating wife and the relationship and what he's going to do next in HIS life.


OK, you win!

What's the next hot topic!

................................................................

BTW, we did say in our first response that he should dump her cheating butt, pronto.

................................................................

You believe that a husband should not beat up a cheating wife's lover.
(I believe he hired it out, not doing the deed himself.)

That, in no instance. a woman is worth the effort, because of the obvious risk of him going to jail.
And, that it is not a classy or manly thing to do.

I concede, no woman is worth the effort, or the risk.

_The Typist-_


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Kaliber said:


> @a_beaten_man, believe it or not, your approach of dealing with your situation is the correct approach, build and show high value, it will serve you well, it will even save your marriage, because nothing can stand in front of someone who can just walk away because they know they deserve better and can find better!
> Read the books, prepare a life with or without her, when she sees you are willing to move on and find someone better, her female instinct will kick in at full force and her libido will fire up!
> Just keep on working on yourself, it will all fall into place!
> That's a promise!


You can't make that promise. No one can.

The 180, self-improvement, however you want to refer to it, is not done with the goal of magically changing the spouse.

It's about rediscovering who you are, becoming a better, more confident person, being healthier physically and mentally, eliminating codependency, rediscovering parts of you that you may have buried while trying to appease a difficult spouse. Being self-reliant is about knowing you'll be okay without your spouse in the event of divorce, instead of traumatized.

Maybe your wife will see the 'new-old' you and be attracted again. Maybe she won't. But it's about YOU being okay no matter what. And honestly, even if your wife does get 're-attracted' to you, it doesn't mean SHE has changed. SHE will still be the person who gave up on the marital bed and flashed her boobs for someone else. Will the new you want to stay married to the old-her if she doesn't change? That will be up to you.

All the talk about a history of cheating is just talk right now. It's only relevant because in situations such as yours, cheating is often the reason the spouse is checked-out of the intimacy of the marriage. So it's important to investigate to see if that's happening in your case, because it may well be. Once you find your answer, you can move on to other problem-solving.

I always advise people to do as much information gathering as they can. How can you make a big decision about your future if you don't even know what options you're choosing between?


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## Kaliber (Apr 10, 2020)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> You can't make that promise. No one can.
> 
> The 180, self-improvement, however you want to refer to it, is not done with the goal of magically changing the spouse.
> 
> ...


@Hopeful Cynic, my promise was about: *A good fulfilling life with or without his wife if he works on him self to be the best version of himself.*
May be I should have made it more clear


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## a_beaten_man (Oct 17, 2020)

A lot has happened in the past few days.

I started to implement some of the suggestions in the 180. I was cordial, friendly even but more like a friend or an acquaintance than a lover. I kissed her but on the cheek or forehead instead of my usual lip-lock. I went to the gym Thursday, Friday and yesterday. I started dressing better. I did some things around the house that I'd been neglecting due to my emotional state. I did not talk to her about or intimacy issues at all. Last night I dressed up a bit more than I usually do. Not business suit but more business casual. I had called a couple of friends that I hadn't connected with in a while. One is single never married and one is divorced. We went out, had dinner and I was very surprised to find I had a great time chatting over old times. When I came home last night my wife was still up. She was in some lingerie that I haven't seen in more than a decade. It looked wrinkled and faded but I guess it was all she could find to try to tempt me. I came in and was cheerful. She asked me how was my night. I said great and made to walk to the bedroom. She jumped out of the chair and came up to me. I kissed her on the forehead and said "goodnight." I went to bed. A while later she came to bed. I know she tossed and turned for a while, I think she did it for effect. I just went to sleep. I think I slept better last night than I have for weeks. Maybe the gym is helping. This morning she was out of bed before me, something that never happens. When I went to get coffee she asked if we could talk. I looked at her and said I'm sure we will someday but right now "you know what you need to do." Then I went to my office. She just poked her head in about an hour or so ago and told me she'd make an appointment to have her hormones checked. I just looked at her and said good. I'm not going to alter my course until she follows through on that and the sex therapist at the very least. I'm going to continue to build a life for myself and I'm not going to have sex with her until there is feeling behind it. Shouldn't be that difficult since I've had lots of practice going without. What's strange is that since I decided to change the status quo and not be satisfied with scraps I've started to notice the ways she manipulates me. It's funny how easily those things come into focus once you take off the rose colored glasses.

I also wanted to make one comment to those who feel I was wrong to teach the man who raped my wife a lesson. First, the emergency room doctors and nurses believed it was rape. The police believed it was rape. The district attorney's office believed it was rape. And my female friends who really don't know her believed it was rape. Even if I was biased because she's my wife I doubt she's a good enough actress to fool all those professionals. This is not an episode of Blue Bloods and she's not Bridget Moynahan. This man was a friend. Maybe not my best friend but a friend nonetheless. For that reason alone he deserved a beatdown and he's fortunate it wasn't me doing it because I might not have stopped.


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## manowar (Oct 3, 2020)

a_beaten_man said:


> I'm going to continue to build a life for myself


Good job. Maintain your frame. Looks like she's respoinding to you.


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