# Made a decision in my mind...........WAW in four years if nothing changes



## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

I can't get past this sadness of rejection and knowing that he just doesn't feel "like that" about me anymore after 23 years together. Nothing I can do or not do will make him feel "like that." There is nobody else for either one of us, nobody has a medical problem, I am the same weight and shape I was when we first met, AND I have talked to him about this on numerous occasions. His response? If he isn't good enough for me then I need to find somebody else that is. SOOO.................it looks like I have no choice. The youngest will be 18 in four years and I guess it's time to start thinking about my exit plan. 

My questions:

1. Is there ANYTHING else I can do?? ANYTHING?
2. Should I tell him I my future plans or just ride it out?
3. HOW do I manage to make it through the next 4 years feeling so hurt and rejected??
4. What does one do to prepare for an exit plan? Can anybody every REALLY be 'ready'???
5. I will be 52 when this plan takes place. Am I "too old" to be doing this??

Just makes me sad, but I cannot handle the sadness inside that his 'not feeling that way' about me creates. I feel so broken. How in the world can I live like this for FOUR more years?

Sunshine


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

You absolutely tell him. It is up to him to do something about it. It doesn't sound too promising though.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Don't wait four years. Start the 180 and get into therapy. Tell him when you are about to move out or he will make your life miserable.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

I think I am going to have to wait the full four years - purpose is waiting 'til the youngest is out of the house. He will make me feel tremendously guilty if I do it while kids are still at home. I know, as I almost did it a year ago. It was horrible. Kids were CRYING, he told them it was all MY doing. I caved after all of the trauma and decided to just stick with it a while. I DO think he would make my life miserable if I told him sooner vs. when I am really ready to do it. Are you suggesting NOT waiting 4 years to do it, Blondi, or just not waiting to get some therapy and going through the 180 (which I am going to have to look up again and review). HOW can I make this work for 4 years without my sadness and frustration showing through and eating me up inside?


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

Can't tell him NOW or I am afraid he will make my life while I am here a living hell ((( I agree, it isn't promising. Forgot to add that I was going to counseling the first time I tried to do this a year ago and convinced him to go. He went ONE TIME and said he wasn't comfortable "sharing feelings" and refused to go back. He flat out told me that if I wasn't happy with him that there was nothing else he could do (( This makes me SO sad. NOthing more I would love than his attention, affection, and loving me "in that way"...................I am just heart-broken inside. 23 years.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Go now. Staying for the kid is only going to teach the kid that a miserable marriage is normal, because you are only going to get more and more miserable in the next four years. Your child won't learn what a proper, loving, partnership should look like.

Don't condemn your children to a marriage as bad as yours. That's all staying four more years will accomplish.

Take a few months, separate your finances, find a job, apartment hunt, do your legal research, develop a spine, do whatever you need to do to prepare.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

No offense, but it sound like your husband is a complete loser. He is the one who isn't committed to the marriage, so he should be the one to leave, not you. But if you are unable to kick him out (if he would become violent), I would take the kids and stay anywhere else you can.

Start the 180, and let him feel the effects of his decision.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Don't let somebody who is willing to manipulate your kids to get you to stay impact how you want to do it. Using your kids as pawns to control you? How terrible is that?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Is there more to this story? Is his side different? Did you both drift apart when your kids were young, and did the sex stop?

He could be a loser or he could have deep seated resentments that make him want to punish you - and withholding affection seems to be accomplishing that.

I'm not blaming you but want you to think from his perspective and see if there is something he is blaming you for.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

LilMissSunshine said:


> I can't get past this sadness of rejection and knowing that he just doesn't feel "like that" about me anymore after 23 years together. Nothing I can do or not do will make him feel "like that." There is nobody else for either one of us, nobody has a medical problem, I am the same weight and shape I was when we first met, AND I have talked to him about this on numerous occasions. His response? If he isn't good enough for me then I need to find somebody else that is. SOOO.................it looks like I have no choice. The youngest will be 18 in four years and I guess it's time to start thinking about my exit plan.
> 
> My questions:
> 
> ...


Sunshine....good name!

As strangers, we are always at a disadvantage. We have only one side of the story. And Paul Harvey is not here to give us "The rest of the story".

There are some responders on this blog...TAM that are good detectives and can spot a bad tooth. They will start tugging and twisting until the root of the problem is exposed.

I will take what you have posted to be Gospel. Your husband has no legs to stand on, in this matter. You are rather perfect, or better put...close to it. And you may be!

I must believe this to continue.

The fact that you are asking strangers if there are other options other than separating and later divorcing tells me that you are looking, either:

a) for justification to leave him
b) for a solution and a path to meaningful reconciliation. Living out your last days with him.

What do you want?.... I know....you will tell me that you would like to patch things up and continue in the marriage. That is the moral and proper response. I get that. You are a good wife, mother, companion and human being. You are in pain. 

You do not want to be perceived as a failure or selfish or inflexible. Who does?

*I ask again...What DO YOU WANT...shed the sensibilities, please.

*As an old man I will give you my take:

1) Is there anything that I can do?

There are two people in a marriage. One person cannot be the glue and the other the solvent. The marriage will not adhere, stay together. Your husband needs to be part of the solution. It does not sound like he is interested. That is bad....and that is key.

2) Lay it all on the line. Tell him that you are ready to walk away from the marriage.....*soon*. Yes, tell him that this will happen soon, even if you have the four year mark in your long range plan. He must be informed. This will bump him off-center...as it should. 

He needs a wake-up call. The Clarion Call to Arms/to Charge: Da-Da-DOT-da-da-DOT-tah-tah-Dah!

If he is interested in fixing this marriage...or not...then his response will open the correct door for you. *He is the key...not you*. Again, assuming that you want to fix this.

If he wants to repair the marriage then both of you need to lay out your expectations of each other. What must he do? What does he want from you?

After hearing his needs and his side of the story, can you emotionally and rationally work with them? Is it something that you want to do? Or is it more of the same....whitewashing the dirty walls rather than sanding them and re-painting them with good long lasting enamel.

If the answer is yes, then Great...do it!

If not, then plan your exit. He was told.

Now tell the rest of your family, even your older children. Do not go into the dirty details. Just tell them that you and your husband have grown apart and you are going to divorce...at some time in the future.

3) Why wait four years? Get those Sterling Silver plates that you got as wedding plates...all in a row. Put detailed planning notes on each, all sequenced as to When, What, Who and Where.

Be realistic and flexible. Plan to be separated in six months. If it takes a year, sobeit. The joy will be when you are free and on your own...not the journey to that place. The journey is going to be gut-wrenching and painful. Accept that.

Divorces happen. Fifty percent of marriages end. For a good reason or reasons. Sometime people change in their marriages, for good or bad. This is life....a short life.

4) How does one be prepared?

You need basic things to survive. Shelter, Food, Water, Air, an Income to support the former items. Get a job, if you do not have one. Can you move in with relatives or friends in the interim until you get you feet on the ground?

The first things to plan on are these: Income, shelter...an apartment or house. Those are the biggies. You have children. You probably do not want to move too far from them.

Open a credit card in your name for emergencies. Your husband may close all your joint accounts and leave you high and dry...penniless. Come up with some cash. Find a job close-by your new abode...to save on gasoline. You may need to pinch pennies for awhile.

Does this sound like something that you can handle? Are you prepared to uproot your whole life? This is what is in store for you, unless you have a good income or ample monies to draw-on {most people} do not.

During this separation to divorce, be as amicable as possible. Do not say or do things that will rain crap on this process.

During your separation do not get involved with another man. This will poke the bear and bring the Hostility Hoards to your new doorstep. It will also give your Soon-to-be-ex-Husband STBXH ammunition to knock you off your pedestal. You have made it this far being honorable. You can wait a little longer.

5) I am 52. Is this too old? 

Too old for what? Please explain. 

Older women have gotten divorces for centuries. You are not unique.

Too old to find another man...another marriageable man? Oh yeah, it will be hard to find another Good Man. You may get lucky. You did not with your present husband. The men that are out there are single for a reason. Some tragic reasons, such as death of a spouse. Or some really good man may have had a terrible wife and he too got divorced. You must sift through all the pedigrees to find a good one. 

Finding a friend with benefits FWB's, not hard. A sexual partner...very easy.

I believe that this is not what you want. That may change. I doubt it.

You have not lived alone in years. This will be a big change. 

Get ready...or get back into the same old stressful life that is yours NOW.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

TheTruthHurts said:


> Is there more to this story? Is his side different? Did you both drift apart when your kids were young, and did the sex stop?
> 
> He could be a loser or he could have deep seated resentments that make him want to punish you - and withholding affection seems to be accomplishing that.
> 
> I'm not blaming you but want you to think from his perspective and see if there is something he is blaming you for.


Yes, I do realize you are only hearing one side of the story. There probably was some sort of "drifting apart" when the kids were younger, though he has always been the LD partner and me "MD" (medium). When the kids were little, neither one of us approached the other or had the interest or energy - so it was a two-way street. Before kids, it was 50/50. Now that they are older, it is me most of the time. We have not been to bed together at the same time since my youngest was a baby (child is now 14). He would rather sit with the computer playing games or tinkering with his cars. It hurts me to my core that some nights I just wake up awake, lying there, hearing him in there playing a game or knowing he is outside, and isn't interested enough to come to bed even once a week. There is just no attraction on his part - or it is the impression he gives. Makes me feel so unwanted and unloved. He is otherwise a great dad and a great provider, and really a decent person.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

SunCMars said:


> Sunshine....good name!
> 
> As strangers, we are always at a disadvantage. We have only one side of the story. And Paul Harvey is not here to give us "The rest of the story".
> 
> ...


[I[/I] 

I truly prefer option B..................staying with him. I do love him. But I don't feel desired or loved in 'that' way. It used to be there early on, so I know he is capable of it. I honestly don't know what I have done to make him resent me if that is what is going on.

Why wait? I absolutely will not leave until all kids are out of the house even if that means four years. Unless I have a meltdown and just can't take it any more one day. I just don't feel right about uprooting them and feeling guilty for the rest of my life. Plus I need $$$ to prepare. I have been self-employed for 20 years and don't bring in a consistent salary. What if the time I choose to make a break is one of my 'down' years??

Too old? Well, I had planned on not working my entire life - as did he - and its looking like me doing that will set us BOTH back for having to go back to very stressful jobs that we both hated. I hate "starting over" at the age of 52 and knowing I then would probably be working until I was 80 years old to get back financially to a good place. No, I don't think I would ever want to marry again. I would not rule out a good relationship, where I felt loved and wanted, but never marriage. I think people change after being married for a while and just quit trying. NOT INTERESTED in going down that road again. However, I may be too old to have something between a FWB and a marriage - which is probably what would work for my comfort level.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> Don't let somebody who is willing to manipulate your kids to get you to stay impact how you want to do it. Using your kids as pawns to control you? How terrible is that?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Well, I didn't see it that way at first..................thought he was legitimately right, how badly it would be hurting them. The more I thought about it, I thought it was pretty manipulative.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

BioFury said:


> No offense, but it sound like your husband is a complete loser. He is the one who isn't committed to the marriage, so he should be the one to leave, not you. But if you are unable to kick him out (if he would become violent), I would take the kids and stay anywhere else you can.
> 
> Start the 180, and let him feel the effects of his decision.


He has never been violent, so not worried about that. My worse fear is that I will tell him what I am planning to do, and he won't care or won't try to stop me. Which means I will then have to follow through. I really DO want to make this work, just NOTHING is getting his attention. I can't say I'm going to leave unless I am prepared to do it......................and it's taking a risk right now because I'm not sure he would care or try to stop me (( Ohhhh how I wish he would - so bad. I don't want out - I just want it to be better.


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## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

How depressing. When was the last time you two had sex?

I'd divorce him now. Or at the least, have an affair to get your needs met. Who cares at this point? You don't have a marriage.

I was in a 100% sexless marriage for almost the last 5 years of our 8 years being married. 5 months being separated and having great sex with my g/f, life is great again. Having a hot sex life is not overrated!

I have two young kids. I had to put myself first. Definitely didn't want them to see their mom and dad in a miserable marriage and not loving each other.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Have you actually talked about sex and attraction? Have you directly asked for sex? Have you asked if he finds you sexually attracted?

Do you find him sexually attractive?

I find that the most direct and honest questions are the hardest to ask. Instead, people break up rather than have the hard talks.

Do you dress provocatively for him at all? Show some cleavage? Tight jeans or yoga pants or leggings? I realize this might not be your style in your age group, but if you dress conservatively or "like a mom" maybe you should shake it up and lure him back sexually. I've pushed my wife to do this - she's a very conservative dresser - now even my DD14 pushes her to wear better fitting (tighter) clothes. I think she's sexy and amazing and I want her to feel what I see anyway.

If you really want to try to make it work, then I think you owe it to yourself to take the time and be honest - and keep talking about sex and intimacy.

Can you join him in his activities? Okay games next to him - get a laptop and sit next to him, find out what games he plays and okay too? Go to the garage with a drink and sit and watch and talk?

I'm asking if you can develop an interest in his interests. If you read His Needs Her Needs, you find that men like it when a woman shares his interests - which is probably why a lot of women go to sporting events and sports bars and clearly have no idea what's going on in the games









I realize all these ideas are awkward... but divorce and starting over are pretty tough too.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

for better or worse,richer or poorer,sickness or health to death til us part.

unless the sex falls off, or she/he gets fat, 


marriage its a sham!


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

chillymorn said:


> for better or worse,richer or poorer,sickness or health to death til us part.
> 
> unless the sex falls off, or she/he gets fat,
> 
> ...


No - marriage is a partnership and both sides have a responsibility to always work on it. A lack of sex can turn a marriage into a roommates situation - yes that can kill the emotions. Getting fat can be a valid issue if an attractive spouse is one of your needs - nothing wrong with being honest about your needs and supporting your spouse by meeting theirs (I gained 100 lbs in marriage so I'm not just talking and looking down on fat people).

OP's H has dropped the ball and she wants him to pick it up - we're here to offer ideas to help her get what she needs or get out.

Sorry this thread triggered you chilly! Not everyone bails when it gets rough - but few get what they need without working for it and communicating.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I see it as similar to a partner who sexes you regularly before marriage, and then stops abruptly after marriage.

Is it too much to ask that we be who we advertised ourselves as during courtship?


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## Abc123wife (Sep 18, 2013)

OP, when I look at your past threads, it appears nothing has changed at all in the past year or more. Why continue trying? Your husband has not done anything to change the situation. And he has figured out that you are not going to do anything about it. Do you really want to do something or do you want to just vent?

Your kids have to be aware of the distance between your husband and you. How is your marriage as an example to them? Is this what you want for them to be the norm for a marriage? Your husband hasn't gone to bed at the same time as you for 13+ years. He doesn't walk along side you or hold your hand or show any signs of affection. Why would you want to wait to divorce him? So your children can learn from their parents what marriage is? Divorce is not suddenly easier for a kid just because they up have left for college. I think it could actually be harder at that age. At this younger age, they have a better means of adjusting before having to leave home and face all the many adjustments of the first time living away.

Why not start an in house separation now? It sounds like your husband does that anyway (him going to bed hours after you). Just make it official, try working out terms of splitting assets amicably, and see if you can be roommates for the required separation period. You might be surprised how relieved the kids are to have the underlying tension in the house over with.


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## philreag (Apr 2, 2015)

Talk to him before you completely check out and become a WAW. It might wake him up, it might not. 

At least you still say you want to work on your marriage. My STBXW did not do that for me.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

LilMissSunshine said:


> He has never been violent, so not worried about that. My worse fear is that I will tell him what I am planning to do, and he won't care or won't try to stop me. Which means I will then have to follow through. I really DO want to make this work, just NOTHING is getting his attention. I can't say I'm going to leave unless I am prepared to do it......................and it's taking a risk right now because I'm not sure he would care or try to stop me (( Ohhhh how I wish he would - so bad. I don't want out - I just want it to be better.


I know how you feel. You're attached to him, and don't want to lose the positive aspects of your relationship, while at the same time hoping that he will change.

But, you need to face the reality that if he doesn't value you enough to fight for you, and doesn't care enough about you to change, he's not worth having around.


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

GuyInColorado said:


> I'd divorce him now. Or at the least, have an affair to get your needs met. Who cares at this point? You don't have a marriage.


^^This. With a slight modification.

I'd tell him you plan to get something on the side, and if he's not good with that then you'll divorce him. Be prepared to follow through. If you follow through you might see a change in his behavior but that will be fear based and temporary- unless he really intends to make changes and that means at the very least, a commitment to marital counseling. 

I wouldn't wait 4 years, I'd do this tomorrow. 

Don't wait 4 years until your youngest is 18, there's no magic number, no particular age where divorce affects children more or less. The key is to keep it low conflict at least in front of the children.


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

sapientia said:


> At 14 your son is old enough to understand his parent's unhappiness and that a civilized divorce could improve everyone's lives. That by itself shouldn't be a barrier.


Yes definitely.



sapientia said:


> Are you self-supporting? If not, get a job asap. That alone may give you a new perspective on your marriage.


NO!

Not if you're considering divorce. For reasons that are beyond the scope of this thread, just don't do it. Stay unemployed until the court has made an alimony award.


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

sapientia said:


> LOL. YES! You are being sarcastic, I hope? Otherwise you are encouraging someone to game a system over becoming self-supporting with the dignity that comes with this? For all you know, this new experience could reinvigorate their stagnant marriage.


That's one of the first things a divorce attorney will tell her. Call it gaming the system or whatever but it's good advice. Her getting a job is not going to solve her problems, it's ridiculous to even suggest that it might.



sapientia said:


> I left my ex and was making more than him within two years of our split. Almost 20 years of marriage, so I was certainly entitled to alimony at the time (well, according to the law) but I declined.


Well that's rare that you declined, most in your situation would get as much as they could. You're lucky that your ex didn't take you back to court for alimony after your income changed. 

It all comes down to protecting yourself financially.



sapientia said:


> If she's entitled to support, it shouldn't be more than 5 years -- long enough for her to go back to school and become self-supporting.


Did the Op say what state she's from? If not then your post is completely without merit.

Alimony can lifetime depending on the state or jurisdiction of the court. After a 23 year marriage, it's unlikely to be anything nearly as short as 5 years. 



sapientia said:


> Marriage doesn't = the higher earner supporting their former spouse the rest of their life.


In some states it means exactly that. Just because you don't want it to does not change the law.


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

sapientia said:


> He could fight the agreement in court if something material about his situation changes, but everything of mine is bequeathed to our son in a trust that my ex is an executor of should something happen to us, so highly unlikely and expensive for him.


You are confusing assets with support. Your assets may be protected in a trust but if your situation changes and the "no alimony" clause can be challenged then you could very well end up paying him support. But we're getting off topic here. 



sapientia said:


> I suspect your advice is coloured by your own difficult divorce -- your words from your other thread. Not everyone has an ugly divorce so we'll just have to agree to disagree.


Wrong. I have given advice to men going through a similar situation. If her husband posted here I'd advise him to encourage his wife to get a job before divorcing her.

There's no doubt I'm bitter and tainted by my own divorce but I'm not THAT biased. In fact if I WAS posting based on my own divorce I would not be advising the wife to stay unemployed which is exactly what my exwife did. 

All depends on who is asking for advice.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

LilMissSunshine said:


> I almost did it a year ago. It was horrible. Kids were CRYING, he told them it was all MY doing. *I caved* after all of the trauma and decided to just stick with it a while.


Wow. Sounds like it was rough. You tried to fix a horrible situation. Good for you. But it got hard, I see. Who wants to deal with that? Better to be miserable and ride it out. Good decision to cave.

Four years? You'll still be here in 10.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

Do all of you veteran posters REALLY not see the same WAW situation in this thread as in all of the others?

Do you all truly not know what she's been doing wrong? Do you all really NOT see what her communication issue is?

Do you all really not understand how she can get his attention? Make him WANT to change?

Really?

Well, LilMissy. You are in luck. The Macho Man is on it now. Here's what you do:

You hand him divorce papers. You tell him "Sorry, I tried to tell you but you didn't listen. It's over now. Goodbye. I'll send for my things later."

Then you walk out the door and go dark for a week or so. Sit back and watch the magic happen.

Here's what you DON'T do:



LilMissSunshine said:


> I caved...


Good luck. You can fix him. I know that. But it will be hard. You just have to figure out if it's harder than living with him for the next four (ten?) years.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

He has NO IDEA his marriage is almost over. If you can get him to HEAR that message, you can make him want to change. 

it's amazing what seeing your world crash before your eyes can do for your motivation.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

LMS, you were the thread I came for wondering "Just a given after 20+ years it's more of a "companion" type of love?"

Since that thread, in reflection and ownership, I know there were so many things I placed in the way that my wife had every reason to walk away, perhaps not similar in deed as yours, but similar in hurt. What is most hurtful is why he will not assess and correct himself to be the husband he promised to be.

The poster above me is right, he either has no idea because his stoic world is all he knows or for reasons known only to him, he simply does not care.

Panic does not create sustainment... he may stress your leaving until he catches his familiar balance, then come back most ugly trying to retaliate for him thinking you forced hime to show his belly... or he may break down his walls and find a humility, push aside those emotional barriers and see his love for you again waiting to be nurtured, and close the gap for the affirmation of love you need and deserve.

This is going to require a leap of faith for you... the majority in yourself. You can't "make" him do anything.

Nothing.

Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

I too will take you at your word with all you have shared, if you cannot live on this path of emotional isolation, you owe it to yourself to take another.

You owe it to your children to show them that they have the ability to choose a path of helpfulness, not hopelessness.

If you wait so many more years, those 4 years need to be on the path of your emotional stability first and foremost. Find the counseling you need, find the loving interests and activities you need, find the good and positive friends you need, find the sunshine you need... I would advise to stay away from the things that break you down and leave you disappointed in the mirror with poor friend choices, activities that hurt your self and soul (finding another physical partner while still married will find your path leading to a cliff quite quickly), embrace mindfulness to allow you to stay focused and not lead to these distractions that will compliment the pain you are already suffering.

Prepare yourself for a life of love so if the worst does come, you are prepared to offer love again from the right path.

Again, hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

You will not be here in this mind when it happens.


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

MachoMcCoy said:


> He has NO IDEA his marriage is almost over. If you can get him to HEAR that message, you can make him want to change.
> 
> it's amazing what seeing your world crash before your eyes can do for your motivation.


I highly doubt any such change will be permanent. 

I've read that lots of times, from the perspective of the husband who is in shock and awe upon being served with divorce papers.

He wants more than anything to be given the opportunity that he will change, or that in fact he HAS changed, in the short 2 weeks since he got served and his wife stopped talking to him.

If she then relents, and withdraws the divorce filing, how long do you really think it will take for him to be right back to the way he was before?

It's no different than people using the 180 to get a response out of their partner.


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

sapientia said:


> The details are in how my income is actually generated from the various assets I own, which I can control from year to year. But as you said we are getting off topic. Unless you want to argue that you know my divorce details better than I who lived it and a national law firm who advises me? LOL.


I was basing my response on the limited information in your post where you seemed to be intermingling assets and support. You obviously have it covered so I wave the proverbial white flag. 



sapientia said:


> Second ask, btw. Do you know how to do this? If not, this might have contributed to your difficult divorce


Do I know how to do what?


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Mclane said:


> I highly doubt any such change will be permanent.
> 
> I've read that lots of times, from the perspective of the husband who is in shock and awe upon being served with divorce papers.
> 
> ...


Off topic, just noticed your signature line. Didn't think anyone would mistake a troll doll for a baby (I know someone did) but on certain days it would be tempting to shoot the doll.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

Mclane said:


> If she then relents, and withdraws the divorce filing, how long do you really think it will take for him to be right back to the way he was before?


If she does it right, never. I'm living proof.

Better yet. Ask @MrsAldi how long it lasts.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

And you seemingly use the term "relents" as a synonym for "caving". She's done that and it doesn't work. 

No, she takes him back after some SERIOUS effort on his part. The magic part happens instantly. When he realizes he's fuc#ed. Then the work starts. 

Changing him and making him want to change are two different things. The former is easy. THEN the work starts. And MAY fail, of course. But it all starts with the fact that he WANTS to change. That's mandatory.

That's all I'm saying.


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## Cooper (Apr 18, 2008)

Why is everyone telling her to work on changing HIM ? Vary rarely does forced change stick. The guy has evolved into what he is, but so has the OP, for all we know the guy prays everyday to come home from work and find her gone. 

OP if you want it done than finish it now, you are doing no one any favors by sticking around for another four years. All you are doing is creating a miserable atmosphere for all involved, including yourself. If you have your eye on the calendar for 2020 you are already 100% divested in your marriage, the next four years will be a miserable waste of time. I have no idea what your history is, I haven't read your other threads, but in my opinion you have so much anger and resentment toward your husband I don't see how you would ever get past it and become happily married.


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

Mclane said:


> I highly doubt any such change will be permanent.
> 
> I've read that lots of times, from the perspective of the husband who is in shock and awe upon being served with divorce papers.
> 
> ...


The 180 is not used to get a response out of their partner. It is to put the implementer on a new, healthier trajectory in their own life. If it causes their partner to sit up and take notice then fine, but that's not the point of it. 

The 180 should put Sunshine in a better frame of mind for leaving in a year, her son will see a change in his mom for the better as a result, and her husband might be spurred to action by it, but the second two things are byproducts and the first is the only reason to do it. 

The way I see it, the 180 is the only option available to her... other than divorce now.


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

MachoMcCoy said:


> If she does it right, never. I'm living proof.
> 
> Better yet. Ask @MrsAldi how long it lasts.


The husband needs a swift kick in his arse to learn. (metaphorically speaking)
My husband gets lazy & sometimes had attitude. 
I tell him go back & live with your parents (he knows my threats are for real) 
Sometimes when a wife doesn't spell out exactly what she wants to change the husband has no clue. 
Yes leaving/divorcing will make him change for a short while (he'll think he's won you back & will go back to normal behaviour)

This man needs constant communication. (Not nagging) Men can tune that out with selective hearing. Which is why he's not taking the threats seriously. 





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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

OK, my thoughts are all over the place but here is what I am thinking now in response to some of everyone's questions. And thank you all for reading. I have read each and every one of the replies.

Why four years? Because I just can't bear to have my kids in two different homes. They don't see a bad relationship. We don't have loud, awful fights. We just don't do a lot together. How can they see that as a bad relationship? i don't think they even pick up on that. It's just a mom and a dad living together without a lot of drama. I can see if we had a ton of fights, there was abuse, etc., but it's not..............it's just a mom and dad living together, low-drama, low-conflict, just not a lot of love which they don't know about.

Why did I cave? I'm scared i can't make it on my own. We struggled in our early years and finally am in a place where I don't have to worry about every dime. My income varies greatly because I am self-employed. I will never make as much as he does, though, as my field will never pay that. I love the work that I do and am not sure how happy I would be going back and doing it for someone else and all that goes with that if I couldn't make enough one year to sustain myself. Not to mention health insurance would eat me alive if I had to pay for it myself (right now it is through him).

These are the two things that immediately came to mind reading through posts. I hope this adds more to the picture of what I am going through.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

You are modeling to them what a marriage is supposed to look like. They are seeing a low conflict, low love environment, and especially in the formative teen years, will recognize that as being "normal".

Is the split custody really the concern? If so, is that about them, or about you?

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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

A few things I'm thinking. First, you don't "get" someone to change. You can share with your H that the current way things are going are not acceptable. He either agrees or not. He might decide that the marriage is worth the effort to modify his behavior, or he might not. But any change has to come from him.

Second, please don't live like this for four years. A 14 year old is more than capable of handling a parent's potential divorce. Lead by example to show your kids what a healthy relationship should be and why it is work to maintain. Everyone has a right to be happy, and that means you, your kids and your spouse. Go to MC, go to therapy, do the 180. But good gosh don't sit in silence for four years.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

LMS, do you know and understand with total truthfulness why he feels as he does towards you with his lack of emotional attachment?

Looking back through many threads, your lack of faith in self seems to find some commonality, your desire for recognition is your heaviest chain and fear taking over when control of the things within your grasp are ignored. If you come to terms with him first, you will remove your first unknown. Clarity is empowering.

Having fear and recognizing that attachment is only healthy when you are willing to place yourself in a place to remove them, moving forward without removing that which takes away your confidence is like leaving the raft without the island in sight.


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## cons (Aug 13, 2013)

I think the "stay for the kids" mantra is a cop out.

Just as far side said, kids see the negative relationship being modeled (even in the absence of fighting or abuse). You are teaching your kids that a marriage like yours is 'normal'...Is this the 'normal' marriage you'd want for your kids?

Would you want your son to treat his wife like your husband treats you (with apathy)?
Would you want your daughter to marry someone that wont' love her 'like that'?

We often find relationships ourselves that are similar to our parents (they can be familiar but not beneficial).

There is no shame in having boundaries with how you want to be treated/loved by your husband. Sometimes, to enforce those boundaries, you need to separate/divorce yourself from them. And that is okay.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

MrsAldi said:


> This man needs constant communication. (Not nagging) Men can tune that out with selective hearing. Which is why he's not taking the threats seriously.


He's not taking these threats seriously because he doesn't know she's serious.

Seriously.


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

MachoMcCoy said:


> He's not taking these threats seriously because he doesn't know she's serious.
> 
> Seriously.


Agreed. 

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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

I'm sorry but the more you post the more I believe you are just selfish.

You fear you can't make it alone so you take money, take shelter and use your H as a bank account.

You don't want to share custody - because it's hard and you have fears - and instead delude yourself into establishing that a house devoid of love is how life should be.

I don't think you know what a loving relationship looks like if you think what you are modeling is anything other than horrible. You write like you're in prison and hope to be paroled sometime in the future.

You don't communicate with your H and you blame him for the marriage failure. 

You have it in your power to fix your side of the marriage, communicate your unhappiness, and teach your child what it means to be a wife, have boundaries, accept what's acceptable and reject what isn't. You owe it to your child to teach them how to empowe themselves. You owe it to your child to how them that some risks are worth fighting for and happiness in marriage is a must - not a nice-to-have. You owe it to your child to show them that it is deplorable to coexist in a loveless marriage ONLY for a paycheck and a roof over your head. There's a name for that, right?

All of this is fixable AFTER you acknowledge it as a problem. It's better for your child to see you struggle to fix your marriage before you call it quits. It is good for a child to see their parents work hard, struggle, and come up with solutions in a difficult environment. You teach resiliency, resourcefulness, striving for happiness and love and connections - and not fear, avoidance, mediocracy, and settling. Living in a love filled, joyful studio apartment far outweighs what you are contemplating. Renting a room is a better choice (my FIL rented out a room to a series of great people transitioning in life over a 25 year period - there was no shame in that).

Finally - if you embraced the attitudes I suggest - you would find yourself in the middle of a 180, taking charge, empowering yourself, and putting H on notice as to what you will accept going forward. I suspect this could make a real difference to him seeing you show some strength and passion - but that is a side effect and not an objective.

I suspect you will choose to let fear win this argument.

Sorry but sometimes the truth hurts.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

If I could give a dozen likes to this above (TTH), I would and hope LMS takes most of this to heart.

Sunshine, you have the power... you would be foolish to squander it, teach your children a better path but only after you have learned it yourself.

Life is meant to share lessons.


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## cons (Aug 13, 2013)

TheTruthHurts said:


> I'm sorry but the more you post the more I believe you are just selfish.
> 
> You fear you can't make it alone so you take money, take shelter and use your H as a bank account.
> 
> ...


:iagree:


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

sapientia said:


> TheTruthHurts said:
> 
> 
> > It's better for your child to see you struggle to fix your marriage before you call it quits. It is good for a child to see their parents work hard, struggle, and come up with solutions in a difficult environment. You teach resiliency, resourcefulness, striving for happiness and love and connections - and not fear, avoidance, mediocracy, and settling.
> ...


I rarely evaluate motivations - except here to help people discover their own issues. Rather I am more of an existentialist - we are what we do. So acting selfish makes one selfish - regardless of the motivations (fear, self preservation, maternal instincts...)

"A philosophy that emphasizes the uniqueness and isolation of the individual experience in a hostile or indifferent universe, regards human existence as unexplainable, and stresses freedom of choice and responsibility for the consequences of one's acts."

To me that is the key - own your actions, recognize the choice you are making, and accept responsibility.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

sapientia said:


> I agree^.
> 
> I don't necessarily agree about the selfish part. The fear, yes, which can cause people to act selfishly, but I don't know if the OP is inherently selfish. Considerations about staying in a marriage when there are children involved has a lot of weight in these situations.
> 
> If there were no children, selfish for sure. In this case, I'd not be so quick to judge.


I agree, the most I agreed with was all but the "I'm sorry but the more you post the more I believe you are just selfish." line. In my haste I did not clarify this.

I do not believe she is selfish, but I do believe she does not understand how this desire is driving her desperation.

Children do change the priority of things to a great degree, often positive, sometimes not if used as leverage for a manipulative outcome. LMS does have a responsibility to lead and teach them better paths, but she cannot do that apart from them. 

She has faced this once, I do not believe her mind sees how a lack of confidence drove her back to the same loneliness. I do not fault her for wanting the affirmation of her husbands love... she does deserve it as much as we all do, whether she can attain that, and if not, how to deal with that emptiness is the challenge. 

I do wish her the strength to believe more in herself and less on pinning her happiness on something she has little control in whether she is given and/or understands the reason.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

To be clear - I don't think selfishness is good or bad, per se. I want my W to be a selfish lover at times. We all are selfish about different things at different times. So I am not judging OP harshly because if selfishness alone.

Being honest with yourself - really seeing yourself objectively - is one of the most difficult things to do. We all rationalize our actions to one extent or another. Believe me - I'm here to learn more about myself - and in other people's problems I do see my own issues.

I am very direct and typically clear thinking. My choice of words was with purpose - I want OP to really examine her own explanations and see the selfishness. She needs money, she has fears, she has an unpredictable income pattern. These are all addressing the OPs issues - they are directly motivating her and are selfish reasons, particularly since she intends to exploit her H to satisfy her needs.

An unselfish approach would involve examining the impact of her loveless marriage on her child.

I realize her child "is in there" in the needs expressed - but if we're being honest here - we know a child responds to love, affection, concern, etc over a specific house or shelter.

Anyway - feel free to disagree.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Thank you TTH, a nice clarification.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

Thanks, everyone. Bottom line is that I have children to consider and I think the negatives are greater in them being in two homes than in observing a low-conflict marriage where one (or both) of the two parents have issues that are not visible as problems in a child's eyes. Thanks for the input.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

Forgot to say................I received an inheritance from a grandparent before we were married and used those dollars to buy a house for the two of us after we were married. Our house is bought and paid for because of MY contributions, we owe nothing on it because of my inheritance. My financial contributions may not be in the form of a steady paycheck, but I have contributed signifcantly to our joint assets through the house as well as through the early years when I made a steady paycheck up until our children were born


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

TheTruthHurts said:


> No - marriage is a partnership and both sides have a responsibility to always work on it. A lack of sex can turn a marriage into a roommates situation - yes that can kill the emotions. Getting fat can be a valid issue if an attractive spouse is one of your needs - nothing wrong with being honest about your needs and supporting your spouse by meeting theirs (I gained 100 lbs in marriage so I'm not just talking and looking down on fat people).
> 
> OP's H has dropped the ball and she wants him to pick it up - we're here to offer ideas to help her get what she needs or get out.
> 
> Sorry this thread triggered you chilly! Not everyone bails when it gets rough - but few get what they need without working for it and communicating.


for richer or poorer sickness and health until death til us part is pretty explicit. no where dose it say in any vows that I've heard dose it say or unless your not meeting my needs.


it a sham. 

I was just reminding that true love looks past some flaws 

and this thread didn't trigger anything it just a fact that marriages today are a sham. why even say vows? if you can at any time decide well your not meeting my needs so I'm leaving.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

The word "cherish" is clearly in vows.

We take pride in caring for things we cherish. I see that is tacit agreement to meet needs.

How do you not?

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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

chillymorn said:


> for richer or poorer sickness and health until death til us part is pretty explicit. no where dose it say in any vows that I've heard dose it say or unless your not meeting my needs.
> 
> 
> it a sham.
> ...


Yes, the vows we take, and therefore the marriage itself, is a sham.

Those promises we make are broken on a regular basis everytime someone cheats and every time a couple divorces.

This is not news.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

LilMissSunshine said:


> Thanks, everyone. Bottom line is that I have children to consider and I think the negatives are greater in them being in two homes than in observing a low-conflict marriage where one (or both) of the two parents have issues that are not visible as problems in a child's eyes. Thanks for the input.


You are delusional if you really believe your children cannot see the truth of your marriage! Everyone ALWAYS ALWAYS discredits their children! They are not stupid. Your marriage may be low conflict, but it is devoid of the affection, playfulness, partnership and admiration that a REAL, HEALTHY marriage has. You are teaching your children that settling for unhappiness is acceptable. Is this the kind of marriage that you wish for your children in their future??


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

MachoMcCoy said:


> He has NO IDEA his marriage is almost over. If you can get him to HEAR that message, you can make him want to change.
> 
> it's amazing what seeing your world crash before your eyes can do for your motivation.


Sure he does, he is done and doesn't care. He would just be stunned if she found the balls to end it before HIS timeline.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

3Xnocharm said:


> Sure he does, he is done and doesn't care. He would just be stunned if she found the balls to end it before HIS timeline.


I knew you were a chick before I even confirmed it.

We don't need the blame game here. ESPECIALLY since you have NO CLUE what goes on in a man's head in this situation. None.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Oh I guess this is all moot anyway...


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...would-seeking-legal-counsel-am-terrified.html


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

MachoMcCoy said:


> I knew you were a chick before I even confirmed it.
> 
> We don't need the blame game here. ESPECIALLY since you have NO CLUE what goes on in a man's head in this situation. None.


Just as you have no clue as to what goes on in a woman's head. Your bitterness is staining my monitor.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

pidge70 said:


> Just as you have no clue as to what goes on in a woman's head. Your bitterness is staining my monitor.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


THANK YOU. I was not assigning blame, either.


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## niceguy28 (May 6, 2016)

LilMissSunshine said:


> I can't get past this sadness of rejection and knowing that he just doesn't feel "like that" about me anymore after 23 years together. Nothing I can do or not do will make him feel "like that." There is nobody else for either one of us, nobody has a medical problem, I am the same weight and shape I was when we first met, AND I have talked to him about this on numerous occasions. His response? If he isn't good enough for me then I need to find somebody else that is. SOOO.................it looks like I have no choice. The youngest will be 18 in four years and I guess it's time to start thinking about my exit plan.
> 
> My questions:
> 
> ...


The fact that he said that you can find somebody else is telling. This tells me has has a deep seated resentment of you. For whatever reason he's has begun to look at you not as a wife but as a roomate/mother of his children. Have you asked him what he's so angry about. I guarantee you his lack of desire has nothing to do with you physically. How is your relationship otherwise? Do you fight a lot, do you belittle him, does he belittle you, do you have issues with your kids?


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## niceguy28 (May 6, 2016)

TheTruthHurts said:


> I'm sorry but the more you post the more I believe you are just selfish.
> 
> You fear you can't make it alone so you take money, take shelter and use your H as a bank account.
> 
> ...



This is so true. People LOVE to complain about their spouses and play the victim card when in 90% of the cases they are equally to blame for the situation. I see all the time how wives complain about their husbands not showing affection or not wanting to have sex with them but then they neglect to say how the husband is fed up with all of their nagging, spending habits, difficult personality etc. Same with husbands who complain about their wives not giving the affection when they only pay attention to their wives when they want sex. Marriage would be in much better shape if people would just step back and realize that they themselves are flawed and that they are part of the problem and thus bare a lot of the responsibility for fixing it.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

niceguy28 said:


> The fact that he said that you can find somebody else is telling. This tells me has has a deep seated resentment of you. For whatever reason he's has begun to look at you not as a wife but as a roomate/mother of his children. Have you asked him what he's so angry about. I guarantee you his lack of desire has nothing to do with you physically. How is your relationship otherwise? Do you fight a lot, do you belittle him, does he belittle you, do you have issues with your kids?


Well, evidently she DID have an EA...not sure if H is aware...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...ior-just-personality-input-needed-please.html


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## niceguy28 (May 6, 2016)

3Xnocharm said:


> Well, evidently she DID have an EA...not sure if H is aware...
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...ior-just-personality-input-needed-please.html


 Yea that situation shows bad judgement in the first place. I think she's not being honest with herself. Adult men and women cannot just be friends. I don't care what anybody says. Either one or both parties have some sort feelings attached. Instead of WAW maybe she should try to walk back into her marriage and work on the underlying issues.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Sadly the underlying issue seems to be that he doesn't want to have sex and sees this as HER problem. Really wish I had an idea how you work through that.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

3Xnocharm said:


> THANK YOU. I was not assigning blame, either.


Sorry. I misread this. My bad.



3Xnocharm said:


> Sure he does, he is done and doesn't care. He would just be stunned if she found the balls to end it before HIS timeline.


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## Mr.StrongMan (Feb 10, 2016)

LilMissSunshine said:


> I think I am going to have to wait the full four years - purpose is waiting 'til the youngest is out of the house. He will make me feel tremendously guilty if I do it while kids are still at home. I know, as I almost did it a year ago. It was horrible. Kids were CRYING, he told them it was all MY doing. I caved after all of the trauma and decided to just stick with it a while. I DO think he would make my life miserable if I told him sooner vs. when I am really ready to do it. Are you suggesting NOT waiting 4 years to do it, Blondi, or just not waiting to get some therapy and going through the 180 (which I am going to have to look up again and review). HOW can I make this work for 4 years without my sadness and frustration showing through and eating me up inside?


 @LilMissSunshine and others, this question brings up a concern of mine too. 
Would it be better to get out of the marriage while the child is still in high school, because doing it when the kid is in the transitional period of going to college would cause so much stress on him during that time? Wouldn't it be better for that stress to take place before such an important transition?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Depends what college you're planning to attend. If it's a ten hour drive then out of sight out of mind, it's not like he doesn't know. I would not do such a college choice lightly as I have two kids in such locations and depending on the kid it could be stressing. 

If commuter or within an hour or two, earlier is better. 

If costs are an issue make sure you include costs in any divorce proceedings.


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