# The HD / LD cycle



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I'm mostly interested the thoughts of people who are the LD partners in their relationships. 

In my marriage, and for many other posters, I've seen a cycle in sexual activity. Sex declines - often over months or more. After a discussion, there is an attempt to improve things. Sex becomes more frequent and better. The HD is happy, the LD appears to be happy (but maybe pretending?)

Then things start to slip. Other higher priorities get in the way. A few times a week becomes a couple of times, becomes once a week, becomes every other week, every month. Eventually things drop to almost nothing, and maybe after a year the pattern repeats.


I've been through quite a few cycles of this - we are in the declining part of the cycle now. My wife claims that she is very interested in a better more frequent sex life. She apologizes when things interfere - but what has happened is that the priority of sex gradually drops, until there is almost always something more important to do that evening.

What is interesting in this case is that I didn't suggest / pressure etc her in any way when things improved. I'd given up. She started the change, I just went along with whatever frequency she wanted - as part of a 2- year long experiment. 

I don't think its my behavior. Lack of sex does make me lose romantic feelings for her, but that happens pretty quickly, and I continue to go through the motions of romance - flowers, romantic dinners, hugs, etc. 

Has anyone experienced this sort of cycle from the LD side. Any understanding of what might cause it?


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

uhtred said:


> I'm mostly interested the thoughts of people who are the LD partners in their relationships.
> 
> In my marriage, and for many other posters, I've seen a cycle in sexual activity. Sex declines - often over months or more. After a discussion, there is an attempt to improve things. Sex becomes more frequent and better. The HD is happy, the LD appears to be happy (but maybe pretending?)
> 
> ...




Mrs.CuddleBug is the same way and you sound like myself.

There is nothing you can really do.

It's called sexual mismatch. The HD does all the changing and compromising while the LD does little to nothing. Just the way it is.

I chose to buy a sex toy and use it when the mood really strikes me. This way, zero pestering Mrs.CuddleBug for sex because that's a bad thing.

Your post is a mirror of Mrs.CuddleBug and I.

I had no issues surprising Mrs.CuddleBug with random flowers, dinners, cute cards, etc. but LD is LD and I'm in the same boat as yourself.

You have to focus on yourself more, go out, exercise, hobbies, you name it. That's what I've been doing and it sorta works.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

uhtred said:


> I'm mostly interested the thoughts of people who are the LD partners in their relationships.
> 
> In my marriage, and for many other posters, I've seen a cycle in sexual activity. Sex declines - often over months or more. After a discussion, there is an attempt to improve things. Sex becomes more frequent and better. The HD is happy, the LD appears to be happy (but maybe pretending?)
> 
> ...


Yes we have and are experiencing this cycle. What causes it? The deep answer to that is as varied as the couples experiencing it. But the short answer is - the LD (which is me at the moment) is not that interested in having sex with their HD spouse, so they don't! My drive is a reactive one most of the time - and when I don't desire sex at the time that my husband does - it's easy to push it and him aside and work on "more important" stuff. And yes, it totally is a form of selfishness. I don't allow sex to progress because I selfishly don't want to have sex at that time! I am selfishly dismissing what my husband wants - and not doing what I don't want to do! 

Every time I reject, ignore, avoid, or give a rain check when he initiates - it's simply because I don't want to make the effort to have sex, so I don't. (this is for John who said an LD would never admit it. I admit it!!!) It really is that simple - and yet it is also very complicated when you delve into the reasons why I don't want to have sex!! 

But let's be honest here - aren't HD's sometimes selfish in there desire to have sex at times. They want what they want when they want it - even knowing the LD doesn't want it! 

Yes it's true the LD is the gatekeeper and that sucks for the HD and for the marriage if the LD constantly and consistently keeps the gate closed most of the time. Welcome to the real world - this happens a lot! What seems to be rare is to find matched desire levels - or LD gatekeepers who unselfishly manage to keep the gate open all the time, welcoming the HD anytime they come through the gate, and does this without building up resentment towards the HD. 

Many (I would venture to say most) marriages deal with the issue of mismatched desire levels and the cycle you describe. Further more, at different points during most if not all long term marriages, the spouses designated as LD and HD are probably going to change places for various reasons and various periods of time. And guess what - the same thing will probably happen. The previous HD now LD will often not do what they don't want to do! It's just the nature of us humans - we tend to avoid doing what we don't want to do WHEN WE CAN GET AWAY WITH IT!!

My husband and I go through periods where I am the HD and he is the LD. And guess what - when he doesn't want to have sex with me - and I want to have it - there are many times that we don't have it! We are all selfish at times - and also seem to build up resentment easily when things don't go our way! The HD's become resentful when they don't get sex when or as often as they want it - the LD's become resentful when they feel they have to have sex when they don't want it! 

Good marriages and happy couples recognize and accept that this mismatch happens. They also recognize that there are negative cycles that can occur because of this mismatch. They watch for these negative cycles. They watch for feelings of needs not being met. They watch for feelings of resentment. They understand that both spouses feelings matter and that both spouses need to have times when they are unselfish and times when they are self focused. They understand that when sex starts happening less and less - it causes the HD to feel unloved AND less loving as his needs are ignored and the LD's needs seem to consistently trump theirs most of the time. They also recognize that the LD's need to not feel forced into having sex is important too. These couples find that compromises have to be made and that they have to find ways to catch the negative behaviors in the early stages of the cycle - fixing it before it gets to resentment stages. They both realize that they both have to communicate and lovingly find a way to navigate their sexual mismatch issues. They realize and find a way to help both spouses feel that their needs are being met They figure out ways to keep the negative cycles from starting or stopping their progression early so that BOTH spouses can be happy and content. 

May I ask - why do you, or your wife, or both of you let the sexual decline cycle progress to the point of almost nothing - over and over? Are you sure your behavior does not contribute to this negative cycle - or maybe lack of behavior?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

One thing I would be interesting in hearing as well from the LD person. Are they OK if their SO stops pursuing them altogether (i.e. they still want to be chased/desired, even though they have little interest in sex and reject their SO)? Also, would they be OK if their SO resorted to masturbating (by whichever means possible whether it be via porn, toys, sock puppet, etc...) to take care of their needs?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

mary35 said:


> Every time I reject, ignore, avoid, or give a rain check when he initiates - it's simply because I don't want to make the effort to have sex, so I don't. (this is for John who said an LD would never admit it. I admit it!!!)


It doesn't matter whether the LD admits it verbally or explicitly as most spouses catch on after a few rejections....


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Semi-somewhat success story to report here:

Frequency hasn't increased, but understanding, and effort, has. 

My wife is menopausal, and is dealing with hot flashes, insomnia, discomfort down under, and all the other myriad of symptoms. In spite of this, she's making a huge effort to engage whenever she's not feeling incapable. This effort is both in terms of doing it whenever possible, and bringing enthusiasm into the effort. (Enthusiasm on her part is _most appreciated!_)

What's more, knowing she's not up to sexual activity at my desired pace, she's doing everything she can to show appreciation and affection in all other aspects of our lives together. This newfound effort is obvious, but honest and sincere, and quite moving. I have always tried to go above and beyond, from earning a high income to providing a nice, comfortable, stable home, to helping around the house, to being romantic, to making gourmet meals, etc. Now she seems to be upping her game as well. It's nice to get some reciprocation, even if it's not always in the bedroom. 

Overall, things are rather special.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

For the HD, sex is a high priority. Probably over and above eating. So imagine being hungry for a meal as if you have not eaten all day and readily being willing to give that up for an opportunity to have sexual intimacy with your spouse. 

For the LD, sex is a low priority. Probably somewhere between the priority of making sure there are plenty of clean socks to wear next week and reconciling the bank statements. So if the LD is out of clean socks, then the HD will be asked to help catch up on chores in the house BEFORE there will be any intimacy. 

If the HD convinces the LD to reprioritize sexual intimacy, they will only do so arbitrarily and at some point just start being themselves again. Laundry eventually becomes more important than sex. 

An HD might think he can just hire a maid to fix the problem, but just perpetually having clean socks to wear will not change the preexisting priority given to sexual intimacy for the LD. The LD will just seek things that equivalent to clean socks and focus on that instead as a way to improve the overall quality of life. At that point organizing the closets and donating old socks to create more storage space now becomes more important than sex.

Badsanta


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

That reminds me that I need to do the laundry before I leave and also stock up on new socks. (Exciting! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

OP, you are exactly describing our situation, I am the HD.

One part of it that is more worrisome to me is this. In my first marriage, I spent 15 years addressing the same issues (not sexual) that caused such unhappiness in our relationship. Each time, he would work so hard on it for a few weeks, and things would improve, but then slip back to the same, exactly as you describe in your opening post. I finally left that marriage because I knew it was never going to truly change.

This makes me very worried in my second marriage where those convos are now about sex. 

I hope some more LD people will reply so we can continue to learn more. Thanks for asking this question!


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> That reminds me that I need to do the laundry before I leave and also stock up on new socks. (Exciting!


Good to see that TAM was helpful for somebody today.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Steve1000 said:


> Good to see that TAM was helpful for somebody today.












So then this must be what one happy wife on TAM looks like?

Now I admit, a drawer full of clean or new socks actually does actually make me rather happy! Occasionally when the world has been cruel to me AND my underwear/sock drawer is empty, I'll just go buy a new pack of socks and underwear. It makes me feel f***'n invincible to dress myself in brand spanking new socks/underwear that still have the "inspector 12" sticker somewhere still on them. 










Badsanta


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

mary35 said:


> May I ask - why do you, or your wife, or both of you let the sexual decline cycle progress to the point of almost nothing - over and over? Are you sure your behavior does not contribute to this negative cycle - or maybe lack of behavior?


I'll tell you why I do it. Because chasing after something that my wife clearly does not want feels gross to me and makes me feel bad about myself. So I no longer chase it, and therefore it's nearly dead.

Not healthy, but there's the truth anyway.


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

That is pretty much how marriages go as far as sex is concerned. My solution is non traditional but one that many are following these days. Rethinking monogamy today - CNN.com


I have posted about our unusual marriage and poly triad, so I will not repeat it. In general we found ways to keep our marriage going sexually by choosing our marriage over monogamy. No jealousy or sneaking around. We played with others as a couple and loved the same woman for 30 years. We tried almost every sexual fetish in the book and are into one now since we are no longer with our girlfriend. We have always felt that frequent sex was very important to a marriage due to the exposure to the hormone Oxytocin which emotionally bonds a couple together. The more you bond the more sex you want and the opposite is true also which is why when you have little sex, you want even less and less over time. We would schedule sex nights if needed with mandatory attendance to make sure we bonded and usually after a few weeks of that, we were able to resume our normal sex life again. 

One thing we never did was to sit back and see what happens. We were always proactive before it got to the point that our sex life was almost gone. You really need to communicate about your sexual needs and work things out so that you keep having sex at least weekly. We saw all of our friends and siblings divorce and we did not want that for us. So we looked at the marriage structure we all are in these days and realized that we were clinging to a marriage system that failed 50% of the time. That was crazy when we thought about it so we opened our marriage a little, not a lot, so that neither of us was sexually frustrated and taking it out on each other. We were both happy and happy for each other's happiness, called compersion.

We learned that you could hold your marriage and each other above all else even if you have sex with another person. Sex can be just sex and when I watched my wife with another guy, she was not making love to him like she would with me. It was just sex. No passion, just lust. No gentle whispers or caresses. Just raw sex. You can read the short article below even if you choose monogamy because it describes why monogamy results in what you are experiencing and ways to fix it within monogamy. We view ourselves as a half a couple and expect our spouses to meet all of our needs since we cannot get those needs from others. That breeds resentment and all sorts of marital problems. What it says can also be applied to monogamous marriages so take a look. Not for everyone and not trying to sell it. Just is a different approach. It is not for people in bad marriages as it will quickly destroy them. It is for people in good marriages that need more than they can get from their spouse. It can, and in our case and that of other couples we knew, make your marriage better as counterintuitive as that sounds. We are married for 44+ years. Our longtime girlfriend is married close to 30 years. It works for some, but not for others. It also requires a lot of security in who you are and what you offer. You cannot be afraid of losing your spouse to someone else no matter what they do. These are the things that breed jealousy. We fear loss. We think that they will find someone better, with a bigger penis perhaps, makes more money, is more her type, etc.. If you are the jealous type, stick with monogamy and pray that it works.

Here is the article I spoke about. Do not attack me because I am not claiming that it works for all or will work for the OP. It is just living your marriage out of the box and going against what we have been indoctrinated to believe about sexual fidelity in marriage.

https://www.mindbodygreen.com/0-20649/why-my-husband-i-sometimes-have-sex-with-other-people.html


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Once we had been 3 months without any intimacy. When I mentioned it, she seemed surprised but said that we'd been busy. It just doesn't matter to her. I let it go a long time to avoid pressuring her. Sometimes she realizes its been a long time and starts things again herself. 

I don't think my behavior is causing it, but I can't know for sure. I'm not aware of anything I'm doing or not doing, but I might not be aware. 



mary35 said:


> May I ask - why do you, or your wife, or both of you let the sexual decline cycle progress to the point of almost nothing - over and over? Are you sure your behavior does not contribute to this negative cycle - or maybe lack of behavior?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

What amuses me to oblivion and back is all the "perfect" marriages without intimacy. 

Start looking deeper and objectively and you will find issues. Not manufactured issues, but real issues.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Interesting, this may be a much more general behavior, not just about sex. Maybe its just a natural time constant for someone trying to change a natural part of their behavior before it slips back to their normal pattern. 





Spicy said:


> snip
> . Each time, he would work so hard on it for a few weeks, and things would improve, but then slip back to the same, exactly as you describe in your opening post.
> snip


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Yes, but I expect that there are always issues in any marriage. I think what posters mean by "perfect" is that the other issues in their marriage seem trivial in comparison. 



john117 said:


> What amuses me to oblivion and back is all the "perfect" marriages without intimacy.
> 
> Start looking deeper and objectively and you will find issues. Not manufactured issues, but real issues.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Yes, but I expect that there are always issues in any marriage. I think what posters mean by "perfect" is that the other issues in their marriage seem trivial in comparison.


Once you remove intimacy from the list of grievances (not by having lots of intimacy) the remaining grievances become a lot less trivial.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

uhtred said:


> Interesting, this may be a much more general behavior, not just about sex. Maybe its just a natural time constant for someone trying to change a natural part of their behavior before it slips back to their normal pattern.


So it seems. I just continue to learn so much every day from this site and life's experiences.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

john117 said:


> What amuses me to oblivion and back is all the "perfect" marriages without intimacy.


"My marriage is great / perfect / wonderful except for the lack of sex" is what most HDs have to tell themselves in order to convince themselves that they are making the correct choice in not leaving. So it isn't surprising that we hear it often. If the HD kept telling themselves "not only don't we have sex, but look at all the other problems we have" then it would be very difficult to stay married. And any HD who says "my marriage is perfect except for the lack of sex" obviously wants very much to stay married.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

mary35 said:


> Yes we have and are experiencing this cycle. What causes it? The deep answer to that is as varied as the couples experiencing it. But the short answer is - the LD (which is me at the moment) is not that interested in having sex with their HD spouse, so they don't! My drive is a reactive one most of the time - and when I don't desire sex at the time that my husband does - it's easy to push it and him aside and work on "more important" stuff. And yes, it totally is a form of selfishness. I don't allow sex to progress because I selfishly don't want to have sex at that time! I am selfishly dismissing what my husband wants - and not doing what I don't want to do!
> 
> Every time I reject, ignore, avoid, or give a rain check when he initiates - it's simply because I don't want to make the effort to have sex, so I don't. (this is for John who said an LD would never admit it. I admit it!!!) It really is that simple - and yet it is also very complicated when you delve into the reasons why I don't want to have sex!!
> 
> ...


This really explains alot and alot of the things I originally thought seem to be true. It's not so much that there are LD's and HD's, it's that some people don't want to deal with sex when they don't want to and get away with it because their partner lets them. They want it when THEY want it and the hell with the needs of their partner. The "HD" partners end up being enablers to this whole cycle. They let it happen and do nothing. 

I'm not convinced LD's are really LD they just like the power of being able to call the shots. It's not like it's medical condition, LD"s can sometimes be HD...when THEY want to. Others make this an issue worthy of divorce or marriage counseling. The question end's up being is an LD willing to divorce over it, break up the marriage, impact their kids lives, give up over half of their income. Some can and do, others can't. I think this the ultimate selfishness there can be in marriage. Sex is supposed to be a given in a marriage, who marries with the intent of not having sex?? To take that away selfishly just because "you don't want to" when the other person does doesn't show the willingness to resolve issues that marriages will normally encounter. You are basically forcing your spouse to accept your selfish behavior or divorce you.


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## Spitfire (Jun 6, 2015)

OP, that's the cycle my wife follows too. I don't initiate anymore but will oblige if she does. That's usually once per month. Last Friday was our day this month. Afterward she said "We'll have to do this again Tuesday." My first thought was yeah you mean the first Tuesday in June right? Tuesday has come and gone lol. Contrary to what my wife would say, no amount of effort has ever made a difference long term. I no longer feel the need to put out the effort.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Spitfire said:


> OP, that's the cycle my wife follows too. I don't initiate anymore but will oblige if she does. That's usually once per month. Last Friday was our day this month. Afterward she said "We'll have to do this again Tuesday." My first thought was yeah you mean the first Tuesday in June right? Tuesday has come and gone lol. Contrary to what my wife would say, no amount of effort has ever made a difference long term. I no longer feel the need to put out the effort.


Just curious--why Tuesday after a Friday? Seems kind of random/specific.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

Spitfire said:


> OP, that's the cycle my wife follows too. I don't initiate anymore but will oblige if she does. That's usually once per month. Last Friday was our day this month. Afterward she said "We'll have to do this again Tuesday." My first thought was yeah you mean the first Tuesday in June right? Tuesday has come and gone lol. Contrary to what my wife would say, no amount of effort has ever made a difference long term. I no longer feel the need to put out the effort.


I don't want to seem like an ******* here but doesn't that make you an enabler? You should have held her to Tuesday. There should have been no more important activity on Tuesday than sex. If you don't put out the effort she won't either.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

jb02157 said:


> I'm not convinced LD's are really LD they just like the power of being able to call the shots.


It's easy to assign nefarious intent to things we don't understand. That's why we have conspiracy theories.



jb02157 said:


> It's not like it's medical condition,


Sometimes it is, actually.



jb02157 said:


> LD"s can sometimes be HD...when THEY want to. Others make this an issue worthy of divorce or marriage counseling.


An LD occasionally wanting sex does not mean they flipped the switch to HD. It just means they happened to want it that day. I don't think an LD can make themselves be HD any more than the other way around.



jb02157 said:


> The question end's up being is an LD willing to divorce over it, break up the marriage, impact their kids lives, give up over half of their income. Some can and do, others can't. I think this the ultimate selfishness there can be in marriage.


This is more the HD's choice I'd think.



jb02157 said:


> Sex is supposed to be a given in a marriage, who marries with the intent of not having sex?? To take that away selfishly just because "you don't want to" when the other person does doesn't show the willingness to resolve issues that marriages will normally encounter. You are basically forcing your spouse to accept your selfish behavior or divorce you.


Sex is not a "Given". Nobody is entitled to it just because they get a marriage certificate.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

I'd be interest in knowing why LD people have the attitude they have towards sex. If they are married, know it's important to their partner, but just don't care enough to do something about it then why did they get married/stay married in the first place? It seems that not caring about their spouses happiness should affect the psyche of the LD partner and that they'd want to change that? Does the LD partner know or not know the importance sex has with their HD partner? 

I won't date LD people and honestly haven't encountered one in my adult life, but know if I did that I wouldn't stay in the relationship. I think projecting the attitude of what I expect/accept influences the attitude of my partners and prevents sex drive mismatch problems. Does the HD partner in the relationship not project the attitude that a mismatched drive is unacceptable? Could this be a communication failure issue and a lack of enforcing standards by the HD partner that allows the LD partner to be OK with the relationship?


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## Spitfire (Jun 6, 2015)

Fozzy said:


> Spitfire said:
> 
> 
> > OP, that's the cycle my wife follows too. I don't initiate anymore but will oblige if she does. That's usually once per month. Last Friday was our day this month. Afterward she said "We'll have to do this again Tuesday." My first thought was yeah you mean the first Tuesday in June right? Tuesday has come and gone lol. Contrary to what my wife would say, no amount of effort has ever made a difference long term. I no longer feel the need to put out the effort.
> ...


It kind of seemed odd to me too. She's never really set a day like that before. She's always open to the idea of having sex more often right after having it but that sentiment doesn't last long. I had thought about initiating Tuesday but she made it clear ahead of time that she "wasn't feeling well". I wouldn't want to appear "insensitive" by still initiating sex lol. It's all a game of control.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> It's easy to assign nefarious intent to things we don't understand. That's why we have conspiracy theories.
> 
> 
> Sometimes it is, actually.
> ...


Fozzy...knowing what side of this you are on, you really are very mature and have a good understanding of these issues. I wish things were going better for you in this realm.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Bananapeel said:


> I'd be interest in knowing why LD people have the attitude they have towards sex. If they are married, know it's important to their partner, but just don't care enough to do something about it then why did they get married/stay married in the first place? It seems that not caring about their spouses happiness should affect the psyche of the LD partner and that they'd want to change that? Does the LD partner know or not know the importance sex has with their HD partner?
> 
> I won't date LD people and honestly haven't encountered one in my adult life, but know if I did that I wouldn't stay in the relationship. I think projecting the attitude of what I expect/accept influences the attitude of my partners and prevents sex drive mismatch problems. Does the HD partner in the relationship not project the attitude that a mismatched drive is unacceptable? Could this be a communication failure issue and a lack of enforcing standards by the HD partner that allows the LD partner to be OK with the relationship?


It's pretty hard to get a true feel for it during dating. Everyone is HD in dating. 

After several years of marriage, kids, etc, things tend to change.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> It's pretty hard to get a true feel for it during dating. Everyone is HD in dating.
> 
> After several years of marriage, kids, etc, things tend to change.


Indeed.
It seems an accepted truism that "past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior."
However, crossing the threshold of marriage seems to be a regular exception to this rule.

It's like a joke I saw on a joke thread in the social spot forum on this site:
Q: What food decreases a woman's sex drive by 90%?
A: Wedding cake!

It's harsh, but for many, there is a kernel of truth at its core. And men are not exempt from being called out for post nuptial changes. While many women forget the importance of sex, many men forget the importance of romance. Men can be just as bad as women about slacking in the relationship once they've got their partner on the hook. At their worst, they can become abusive in ways they never would have done before the ceremony.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> One thing I would be interesting in hearing as well from the LD person.* Are they OK if their SO stops pursuing them altogether *(i.e. they still want to be chased/desired, even though they have little interest in sex and reject their SO)?


Yes, I would be o.k. if my husband/partner stopped pursuing me for sex. 




> Also, would they be OK if their SO resorted to masturbating (by whichever means possible whether it be via porn, toys, sock puppet, etc...) to take care of their needs


Although I wouldn't be o.k. with the porn, I'd be o.k. with everything else you mentioned.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

badsanta said:


> For the HD, sex is a high priority. Probably over and above eating.


This is something that many LD's can not stand. When an HD compares lack of sex to lack of food, it's a HUGE exaggeration. We all know that people will DIE without food. They won't DIE without sex. To make that comparison, is a major TURN-OFF to an LD. 



> For the LD, sex is a low priority. Probably somewhere between the priority of making sure there are plenty of clean socks to wear next week and reconciling the bank statements. So if the LD is out of clean socks, then the HD will be asked to help catch up on chores in the house BEFORE there will be any intimacy.
> 
> If the HD convinces the LD to reprioritize sexual intimacy, they will only do so arbitrarily and at some point just start being themselves again. Laundry eventually becomes more important than sex.


The LD doesn't walk around feeling that constant "itch" between their legs. So yes, it IS a low 'priority' for them. Many LD's don't even masturbate. There's no 'need' to do so. Even if some of them DO occasionally feel that 'urge', it's something they can take care of themselves. 



> An HD might think he can just hire a maid to fix the problem, but just perpetually having clean socks to wear will not change the preexisting priority given to sexual intimacy for the LD. The LD will just seek things that equivalent to clean socks and focus on that instead as a way to improve the overall quality of life. At that point organizing the closets and donating old socks to create more storage space now becomes more important than sex.


Sometimes I've wondered if HD's are "naturally" HD, or if they've become HD through more 'artificial' means. Consider a young teenage boy who discovers the 'joys' of masturbation. I've heard of these boys coming home after school and literally spending HOURS in their room masturbating, having several orgasms. The more orgasms they have, the more they want. it's as if they're "training" their body to 'crave' orgasms. Once they meet a partner, they expect that partner to 'take over' and become responsible for their orgasms. 

Doesn't really seem all that 'healthy' to me...


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Vega said:


> Sometimes I've wondered if HD's are "naturally" HD, or if they've become HD through more 'artificial' means. Consider a young teenage boy who discovers the 'joys' of masturbation. I've heard of these boys coming home after school and literally spending HOURS in their room masturbating, having several orgasms. The more orgasms they have, the more they want. it's as if they're "training" their body to 'crave' orgasms. Once they meet a partner, they expect that partner to 'take over' and become responsible for their orgasms.
> Doesn't really seem all that 'healthy' to me...


Lots of clear rational thought in this post, especially regarding the exaggeration, but I will take issue with the last paragraph (quoted). 

I am definitely HD, but never engaged in the type of behavior you describe. 

What's more, my high level of desire is not tied to merely wanting to get off. It is about me finding that bonding to the greatest degree through sex. I love going out, doing things together, making dinner for her, etc, but sex is still the biggest bang for the buck in the emotional satisfaction department as well as the physical satisfaction department. 

I am not moved by porn or any other path to physical satisfaction; I am moved by being in the presence of my wife. I want to engage in all activities with her, including sex. Without that one key element, the overall relationship feels diminished. 

If it was just about getting off, we could easily move beyond expecting a "partner to 'take over' and become responsible for our orgasms," we could easily just go back to doing it ourselves--or move on to another partner. We wouldn't endure the frustration that we do.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

jb02157 said:


> This really explains alot and alot of the things I originally thought seem to be true. It's not so much that there are LD's and HD's, it's that some people don't want to deal with sex when they don't want to and get away with it because their partner lets them.


The LD isn't trying to "get away with" anything. Their body doesn't feel 'horny', hence, they're not interested in sex. If you weren't hungry but your partner was, would you FORCE yourself to eat with them, or simply sit with them and watch them eat? How often would you do that before you got tired of doing it? 



> I'm not convinced LD's are really LD they just like the power of being able to call the shots.


The fact that and LD is an LD often has NOTHING to do with their _partner_. But because the LD's partner often wraps his/her own self-esteem up in how much sex they're getting, they MAKE the lack of interest about themselves. 



> It's not like it's medical condition, LD"s can sometimes be HD...when THEY want to.


It's not a _medical_ condition; it's a _physical_ condition. It's like missing part of a finger. There's nothing "medically" wrong with that, and it's not necessarily a handicap or a disability. After all, people CAN and DO function without 10 full fingers. 



> Others make this an issue worthy of divorce or marriage counseling. The question end's up being is an LD willing to divorce over it, break up the marriage, impact their kids lives, give up over half of their income.


I know that this has already been addressed, but it's usually the *HD* who seeks a divorce in these cases. 



> I think this the ultimate selfishness there can be in marriage. Sex is supposed to be a given in a marriage, who marries with the intent of not having sex??


Sex _*is*_ pretty much a 'given' in marriage. HOW OFTEN and to have sex and WHAT KIND of sex and for WHAT PURPOSE it is, is NOT a 'given'. Let's understand that MOST LD's HAVE had sex in their marriages. But it's not as often as the HD wants.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Its not the fact that one is HD and one LD that causes most issues, but the fact that often the LD partner will be very selfish and only think of themselves. 
Marriage and good sex is about putting the other before yourself, having empathy, compromising, and realising that sex in marriage is very beneficial and important. 

I think that many people today are just selfish, only thinking of how THEY feel and what THEY want. If you only want sex every 2 week and your partner would like sex twice a week, is it such an effort to do that for them? Because you love them and want a strong marriage?


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> "... but sex is still the biggest bang for the buck in the emotional satisfaction department as well as the physical satisfaction department.
> 
> I am not moved by porn or any other path to physical satisfaction; I am moved by being in the presence of my wife. I want to engage in all activities with her, including sex. Without that one key element, the overall relationship feels diminished.


What is it about sex that causes you to feel that way? 



> If it was just about getting off, we could easily move beyond expecting a "partner to 'take over' and become responsible for our orgasms," we could easily just go back to doing it ourselves--or move on to another partner. We wouldn't endure the frustration that we do


One of the best definitions of "frustration" I read was: Frustration results from constant thwarted efforts directed at unrealistic goals. 

So, I ask myself the following question: How "realistic" is the HD being when it comes to sex? 

We can have sex for many, many reasons, and MOST of them aren't 'healthy'. We do it to make someone jealous or because we're angry or to get revenge or because we want our ego stroked or to raise our self-esteem. And of course, we can simply want a 'release' and believe that we're _entitled_ (and yes, marriage cause quite a few people to feel 'entitled' to sex!) to getting that release through sex. Reasons such as those don't seem very 'healthy' to me. 

And yes, you may feel emotionally "bonded" with your partner when you have sex, but that 'bonding' feeling is often pretty short-lived, and often quite related to how often they feel the physical desire for a "release". 

Coincidence?


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> Its not the fact that one is HD and one LD that causes most issues, but the fact that often the LD partner will be very selfish and only think of themselves.
> Marriage and good sex is about putting the other before yourself, having empathy, compromising, and realising that sex in marriage is very beneficial and important.
> 
> I think that many people today are just selfish, only thinking of how THEY feel and what THEY want. If you only want sex every 2 week and your partner would like sex twice a week, is it such an effort to do that for them? Because you love them and want a strong marriage?


Diana, most times agree with you.

Not this time, however, LOL! 

The same thing can be said about the HD being selfish, lacking empathy and the like. 

If the HD pretty much wants to feel good about themselves through sex (oh, goody! Someone's having sex with me! That means I MUST be an o.k. person! Hooray for ME!) or pretty much wants to have sex with me because it's "better than beating off" or just wants a 'release', I'd say that the HD in those cases is the one being "selfish".


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

Vega said:


> What is it about sex that causes you to feel that way?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Vega said:


> Diana, most times agree with you.
> 
> Not this time, however, LOL!
> 
> ...


vega, its normal to want to have sex with your spouse who you love surely? I know that my husbands ex made him feel like a pervert for wanting to have sex more than once a week, and she controlled if and when it happened throughout their 23 year marriage. That's why I made a promise to myself when we married that I would never turn him down for sex. 
Fortunately we seem to mostly agree on about how often we have sex, but there are always occasions when one of us is keener than the other at that particular time, but we do it for the other person because they want sex.

Also for me it maybe moré important because we don't look at porn etc, so all of our sexual needs are met by each other. If I said no, he isn't going to run off and watch porn and masturbate, so I feel its important for me to meet his needs and desires.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

preface: much of this post relates to past tense. Things seem to be going quite well these days in this area (they have almost always gone well in all other areas).



Vega said:


> What is it about sex that causes you to feel that way?


I'm not sure how to answer that. It's just the way it is. It's like asking a LD how she can be satisfied with such little physical contact. That's just the way it is. You may as well ask me why my taste buds react better to chocolate chip cookies than snickerdoodles. 

The closest thing to a "rational" reason I can think of is that I appreciate being desired. More to the point and even more rational is that sex (if done that way) is an incredibly intimate experience. I appreciate that she is willing (and even enthusiastic about) to bare herself, and open herself to me in that way as I do to her. Wanting to be with me in every way rather than in every way than that is a beautiful expression of oneness (again if doing it as part of a vulnerable relationship rather than just a lust inspired roll in the hay--which of course can be fun, but that's beside the point here)





Vega said:


> One of the best definitions of "frustration" I read was: Frustration results from constant thwarted efforts directed at unrealistic goals.
> So, I ask myself the following question: How "realistic" is the HD being when it comes to sex?


It's not a matter of being realistic or unrealistic. I'm realistic in that I know we have a mismatch in desired frequency, and that it will happen on her schedule, not mine. That is the ultimate in realism. I gave up hoping for more long ago. That doesn't mean I'm not going to miss it as the days turn into weeks and (as has happened on occasion) the weeks turn into months. What's horribly unrealistic for the LD to think the HD can ever be happy with this. 



Vega said:


> We can have sex for many, many reasons, and MOST of them aren't 'healthy'. We do it to make someone jealous or because we're angry or to get revenge or because we want our ego stroked or to raise our self-esteem. And of course, we can simply want a 'release' and believe that we're _entitled_ (and yes, marriage cause quite a few people to feel 'entitled' to sex!) to getting that release through sex. Reasons such as those don't seem very 'healthy' to me.


I have never had sex for any of those unhealthy reasons. In fact, despite being every bit a horny youth as any other young man, I waited for my wife and have only ever had sex with her. I never expected her to "service me."
I can only maintain my own enthusiasm if I get the sense she is interested as well. 

The idea of entitlement is a thorny one, and it is definitely not black and white. It is certainly wrong for a HD to feel entitled to sex on demand whenever he want's it, but it's hard to fault him for feeling that _some _sexual activity should be part of marriage (assuming the absence of physical problems). Every man (or woman) who puts effort into their marriage _deserves _to feel desired by their partner. 




Vega said:


> And yes, you may feel emotionally "bonded" with your partner when you have sex, but that 'bonding' feeling is often pretty short-lived, and often quite related to how often they feel the physical desire for a "release".
> Coincidence?


There are times, even during dry spells, when I still feel fantastically bonded. Even when not, the bond remains strong enough that I could not imagine being with anyone else. The very idea of cheating as a response is completely abhorrent to me. When women have approached me, I recoil and become disgusted, just as a faithful, happily married woman would from the unwanted advances of a man who is not her husband. 

But the fact remains that bonds must be continually reinforced just as gardens must be tended. Every type of relationship, be it friendship, romance, business, etc, requires regular maintenance. The type of relationship determines the type of maintenance required. Sex is an integral part of marriage and, as such, is part of the maintenance requirement. To deny that is to abandon the relationship.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

LD here.

We have a definite cycle, but it seems pretty consistent. I don't experience the fluctuations that you speak of. My true natural drive would be 1-2× a month. The only thing that impacts that is a major illness. 

However - my H does not initiate sex at all. And we've never had "the talk" about it (where he's sat me down and told me to start doing it more). 

It is true that I hold the reigns and decide when we have sex. He just seems to wait around for me to say go. 

I've often wondered if I just stopped initiating how long it would take for him to approach me. I've never let it go that long to find out. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Vega said:


> Diana, most times agree with you.
> 
> Not this time, however, LOL!
> 
> ...


I'm curious--what do you believe IS an acceptable reason to want to have sex with someone?


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

kag123 said:


> LD here.
> 
> We have a definite cycle, but it seems pretty consistent. I don't experience the fluctuations that you speak of. My true natural drive would be 1-2× a month. The only thing that impacts that is a major illness.
> 
> ...


Do you prefer it that way? Would you prefer your husband to initiate more, even if that meant you'd be having more sex than your natural inclination? Or does it work better for you that he leaves it to you to set the pace?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

kag123 said:


> LD here.
> 
> We have a definite cycle, but it seems pretty consistent. I don't experience the fluctuations that you speak of. My true natural drive would be 1-2× a month. The only thing that impacts that is a major illness.
> 
> ...




Do you think your husband trusts you enough with his ego to initiate? I know I don't trust my wife with this. We only do it when she initiates, about once a week. If she stopped, I'd just watch more porn until I initiated divorce. Her fun with rejecting me is over and she won't get that chance again. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Its important to understand whether he wants you to do all the initiating. 

After finding that my wive never accepted when I initiated, I've stopped. Being rejected is not fun. 

You situation of course might be completely different. 




kag123 said:


> LD here.
> 
> We have a definite cycle, but it seems pretty consistent. I don't experience the fluctuations that you speak of. My true natural drive would be 1-2× a month. The only thing that impacts that is a major illness.
> 
> ...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

The analogy doesn't work because a hungry person can eat by themselves. Someone cannot have sex by themselves - masturbation is completely different. (or maybe some LDs see masturbation as equivalent to sex, which would explain a lot of the difficulty in these discussions) 

So he can't eat by himself. He can eat with you or with someone else, or go hungry. (not starving to death, but hungry). 

Would you be wiling to have a few bites to eat so that he could eat? (eg, engage in some sexual activity with him, but not intercourse which is uncomfortable if you are not aroused)?

Do you do other things just to please your partner - cooking their favorite meal, giving a back rub, watching a movie with them that you don't particularly enjoy, etc? Why is having sex in order to make them happy the same sort of thing?




Vega said:


> The LD isn't trying to "get away with" anything. Their body doesn't feel 'horny', hence, they're not interested in sex. If you weren't hungry but your partner was, would you FORCE yourself to eat with them, or simply sit with them and watch them eat? How often would you do that before you got tired of doing it?
> snip
> 
> 
> ...


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I'm not sure how to answer that. It's just the way it is. It's like asking a LD how she can be satisfied with such little physical contact. That's just the way it is. You may as well ask me why my taste buds react better to chocolate chip cookies than snickerdoodles.


First of all I want to say that I LOVE your entire response! :smile2: 

It's not that the LD is satisfied with "little physical contact". In my LD days, I would have LOVED it if my husband gave me hugs and a kisses, held my hand or cuddled with me...WTHOUT IT LEADING TO THE BEDROOM EVERY TIME. And there are plenty of LD's who are afraid to initiate ANY physical contact because the HD might get the 'wrong' idea, or claim that the LD is "teasing" him or her. In this case, the LD can't win. If the LD 'gives in' and has sex once a week, it isn't enough. Twice a week isn't enough. Even three and times a week isn't enough. Even three times a DAY isn't enough for some HD's. How depressing it is for an LD to be WANTING to have sex once a week, but be having sex 3 times a week only to hear from her partner, "But I could do it 3 times a DAY." The LD starts to feel like the HD is pretty insatiable...and the LD starts to feel like sex is ALL that matters to the HD. Hence, the LD often gives up... 



> The closest thing to a "rational" reason I can think of is that I appreciate being desired. More to the point and even more rational is that sex (if done that way) is an incredibly intimate experience. I* appreciate *that she is willing (and even enthusiastic about) to bare herself, and open herself to me in that way as I do to her. Wanting to be with me in every way rather than in every way than that is a beautiful expression of oneness (again if doing it as part of a vulnerable relationship rather than just a lust inspired roll in the hay--which of course can be fun, but that's beside the point here)


What I've bolded is a key ingredient for an LD, and it ties in with what I wrote above. Appreciation or should I say, _gratitude_ is what's missing in many LD/HD relationships. 

Many people tend to view sex as something that's expected in marriage or obligatory. When we start to feel this way, we start to feel a sense of entitlement. Once entitlement sets in, gratitude is lost. :frown2: We start taking advantage of each other and resentments set in. 




> It's not a matter of being realistic or unrealistic. I'm realistic in that I know we have a mismatch in desired frequency, and that it will happen on her schedule, not mine. That is the ultimate in realism. I gave up hoping for more long ago. That doesn't mean I'm not going to miss it as the days turn into weeks and (as has happened on occasion) the weeks turn into months. What's horribly unrealistic for the LD to think the HD can ever be happy with this.


I'm not to sure if we can accurately predict whether desire/frequency will remain constant, increase or decrease. For example, some women have a complete loss of libido during pregnancy. Others can't get enough orgasms during pregnancy. And, to complicate matters even more, desire can change from one pregnancy to another. 

Like I tried to point out earlier, it's not that the LD thinks that the HD could or even should be happy with the reduction in frequency. The LD can feel that no matter what he or she does, it will never be 'enough' for the HD to be happy. 



> I have never had sex for any of those unhealthy reasons. In fact, despite being every bit a horny youth as any other young man, I waited for my wife and have only ever had sex with her. I never expected her to "service me. I can only maintain my own enthusiasm if I get the sense she is interested as well.


Perhaps you don't expect your wife to 'service' you but as you can see by these threads, other people seem to have a different opinion. The LD should 'accommodate' the HD, at least somewhat. Many HD's KNOW that their LD partner isn't really into sex as often as the HD. But as long as the HD is "getting theirs"... (Note- This does NOT mean that *I* think that all you TAM HD's reading this thread do this)



> The idea of entitlement is a thorny one, and it is definitely black and white. It is certainly wrong for a HD to feel entitled to sex on demand whenever he want's it, but it's hard to fault him for feeling that _some _sexual activity should be part of marriage (assuming the absence of physical problems). Every man (or woman) who puts effort into their marriage _deserves _to feel desired by their partner.


I think someone on this thread wrote that sex is a "given" in marriage. It's an_ expectation_; a close 'cousin' of entitlement. "I am entitled to sex BECAUSE I'm married", yadda, yadda, yadda. Marriage=sex. But once again, HOW MUCH???? Our marriage vows don't explicitly say. 



> There are times, even during dry spells, when I still feel fantastically bonded. Even when not, the bond remains strong enough that I could not imagine being with anyone else. The very idea of cheating as a response is completely abhorrent to me. When women have approached me, I recoil and become disgusted, just as a faithful, happily married woman would from the unwanted advances of a man who is not her husband.


I feel the same way, but so many other HD's do not. How often do we hear, "After a few days of not having sex with my wife/husband, I start to feel resentment/worthless/not-as-"connected". It makes me wonder, is it SEX that they 'love', or their partner? If they're not having 'regular' consistent sex with their partner, their "love" for their partner starts to dwindle. Makes me question how much "love" they had for their partner in the first place...



> But the fact remains that bonds must be continually reinforced just as gardens must be tended.


Once again, HOW MUCH? 



> Every type of relationship, be it friendship, romance, business, etc, requires regular maintenance. The type of relationship determines the type of maintenance required. Sex is an integral part of marriage and, as such, is part of the maintenance requirement. To deny that is to abandon the relationship


Isn't it odd how many relationships outside of sex seem to last longer than those that include "regular" sex? Could it be that the foundation of an intimate relationship should be about the rest of the relationship and not put sex ahead of it?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> Sex is not a "Given". Nobody is entitled to it just because they get a marriage certificate.


Ah... a non wage earning spouse is not entitled to their wage earning spouses' earnings just because they get a marriage certificate.

Slippery slope...


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

uhtred said:


> The analogy doesn't work because a hungry person can eat by themselves. Someone cannot have sex by themselves - masturbation is completely different. (or maybe some LDs see masturbation as equivalent to sex, which would explain a lot of the difficulty in these discussions)
> 
> So he can't eat by himself. He can eat with you or with someone else, or go hungry. (not starving to death, but hungry).
> 
> ...


You're right. They can't have sex with themselves. But when my partner wants to have sex with me, and I turn him down...and THEN he wants a hand-job, "instead", that tells me that he was pretty much after the release in the first place; and not an "intimate experience". Rinse and repeat. If he was after the 'release' the whole time, why disguise it as wanting sex? Because it "feels" better when someone else does it FOR him/her? 

Look, I'm only hear to explain how some LD's feel and what some of them think. Yet, it seems that as soon as an LD starts TELLING people how they think, their thinking is dismissed and ridiculed. No wonder why so many of them clam up. 

The truth is that (s)he _CAN_ have orgasms by him or herself. But when an HD starts to exaggerate about how they feel (for example, like they're going to 'die' without it), it's a turn-off. It's obvious that they won't "die"...or "go crazy". And I've been seriously tempted to call 911 when my late husband told me that. The LEAST he could have done was to be HONEST with how he felt. Would have saved us a lot of pain. 

Would I do other things to please him like give him back rubs, foot rubs, cook his favorite foods, watch movies that HE wanted to watch? Yes...TOO many times because much of the time it wasn't appreciated. In HIS mind, that was the "way it should be". 

But I'll tell ya...if ONLY giving him a foot rub would 'make him happy', eventually THAT would get old, too...

Which brings me to the final thought...

Many LD's are BORED TO TEARS with sex. It's not about 'spicing in up', because in the end, it's STILL SEX. Picture this for a moment...

You meet someone. You find out that they LOVE to bowl. You go bowling with them a number of times. But after a while, you start to realize that bowling is their WHOLE LIFE. They don't talk about much else except bowling. Even if someone starts talking about something other than bowling, they always seem to manage to bring the conversation back to bowling. Would you get bored eventually? Maybe even avoid that person (unless you wanted to bowl, of course). Many LD's see sex the same way. 

Not sure if you can relate....

If a


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

kag123 said:


> LD here.
> 
> We have a definite cycle, but it seems pretty consistent. I don't experience the fluctuations that you speak of. My true natural drive would be 1-2× a month. The only thing that impacts that is a major illness.
> 
> ...


You have trained him well...


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

kag123 said:


> LD here.
> 
> We have a definite cycle, but it seems pretty consistent. I don't experience the fluctuations that you speak of. My true natural drive would be 1-2× a month. The only thing that impacts that is a major illness.
> 
> ...


I was wondering if this is because he has been rejected so many times? In my husbands first marriage he was rejected so many times that he almost gave up trying. She would tell him if and when they would have sex, very controlled. In the first years of our marriage I could tell that he was so worried about rejection that he would hesitate and test the waters before he would actually ask or mention the 's' word to me. Eventually he realised that I wasn't ever going to reject him sexually so he relaxed.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

john117 said:


> Ah... a non wage earning spouse is not entitled to their wage earning spouses' earnings just because they get a marriage certificate.
> 
> Slippery slope...


Maybe the wage earning spouse doesn't put 'value' on the non-wage earning spouse's contributions to the household and child rearing, but the courts certainly see it that way. 

By the way...if the wage earning spouse had to PAY the non-wage earning spouse a wage for what the non-wage earning spouse does, most wage earning spouses couldn't afford their spouse...


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Vega said:


> First of all I want to say that I LOVE your entire response! :smile2:
> 
> It's not that the LD is satisfied with "little physical contact". In my LD days, I would have LOVED it if my husband gave me hugs and a kisses, held my hand or cuddled with me...WTHOUT IT LEADING TO THE BEDROOM EVERY TIME. And there are plenty of LD's who are afraid to initiate ANY physical contact because the HD might get the 'wrong' idea, or claim that the LD is "teasing" him or her. In this case, the LD can't win. If the LD 'gives in' and has sex once a week, it isn't enough. Twice a week isn't enough. Even three and times a week isn't enough. Even three times a DAY isn't enough for some HD's. How depressing it is for an LD to be WANTING to have sex once a week, but be having sex 3 times a week only to hear from her partner, "But I could do it 3 times a DAY." The LD starts to feel like the HD is pretty insatiable...and the LD starts to feel like sex is ALL that matters to the HD. Hence, the LD often gives up...
> 
> ...


I honestly do think that sex is an important part of marriage, and that if we deprive our spouse of sex for long periods we open the door to them being tempted. A married couple are supposed to have regular sex, and realise that they are a unit now and not just thinking of what they want.
Actually God is really wise in this and tells married couples not to deprive each other of sex because of the temptations. 
Now I would never ever divorce my husband if he couldnt or wouldnt have sex with me, I love him far too much for that, and my marriage means far more to me than that, but we would loose out on a lot if we didn't have that intimacy and bonding through that physical relationship.

I understand what you say though about many people, women especially, needing that affection without it always leading to sex, and whatever they do its never enough. If the ONLY time they are touched and shown affection is when their spouse wants sex, that can easily lead to resentment. I get that. That's why good communication is vital, and compromise.
We are pretty affectionate. We always hold hands when we are out, we often cuddle on the sofa, and that to me makes me more open to him sexually.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

Vega said:


> You're right. They can't have sex with themselves. But when my partner wants to have sex with me, and I turn him down...and THEN he wants a hand-job, "instead", that tells me that he was pretty much after the release in the first place; and not an "intimate experience". Rinse and repeat. If he was after the 'release' the whole time, why disguise it as wanting sex? Because it "feels" better when someone else does it FOR him/her?
> 
> Look, I'm only hear to explain how some LD's feel and what some of them think. Yet, it seems that as soon as an LD starts TELLING people how they think, their thinking is dismissed and ridiculed. No wonder why so many of them clam up.
> 
> ...


I would be interested to hear from other HD people, men especially if they behave this way?

This thread is going the same way they all do Vega, you seem to think all men that are HD are selfish pigs which is not surprising because your ex was a pig. But you cannot paint all HD men to be like he was. You still seem to be blaming him for the dysfunction yet you tolerated it, where is your culpability? 

Your ex from all accounts was a particularly HD man but with a very low EQ, bad combo. I can tell you that in my world marriage to a very HD man (had to try twice to get a man that is not only HD but high quality sex) is nothing like what you experienced. 

Stop making out that HD people are low quality just by virtue of the fact that they are HD, it just isn't true.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

I'd like to, really I would. Seen her dance before though, refuse to engage with bitter women . Perhaps a castrated eunuch would be a worthy partner here .




MrsHolland said:


> *I would be interested to hear from other HD people, men especially if they behave this way?*
> 
> This thread is going the same way they all do Vega, you seem to think all men that are HD are selfish pigs which is not surprising because your ex was a pig. But you cannot paint all HD men to be like he was. You still seem to be blaming him for the dysfunction yet you tolerated it, where is your culpability?
> 
> ...


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

In the end, there are selfish people everywhere. Some LD people are very selfish, and some HD people are very selfish. Many are not selfish and can work out a good workable agreement and compromise together. 
I suspect that most of us are somewhere between HD and LD.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Lots of HD people are not the way Vega described. They enjoy lots of thing with their partners and are not selfish. Sex to them is not the only important thing, rather it is on link in a chain of things required for a good marriage.

I would not be happy in a marriage with great sex if the other things were missing. 



MrsHolland said:


> I would be interested to hear from other HD people, men especially if they behave this way?
> 
> This thread is going the same way they all do Vega, you seem to think all men that are HD are selfish pigs which is not surprising because your ex was a pig. But you cannot paint all HD men to be like he was. You still seem to be blaming him for the dysfunction yet you tolerated it, where is your culpability?
> 
> ...


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Vega said:


> First of all I want to say that I LOVE your entire response! :smile2:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To -may -to , To -mah -to
One person's "entitlement" is another person's perfectly reasonable expectation. The LD must realize they're not meeting the HDs needs just as the HD must be sympathetic to the LDs sensitivity at being pushed. It's all about balance if its going to work or throwing in the towel and moving on. The middle ground of both living in resentment is no good. If the HD can try to be happy with less sex than they would like, the LD should also work to enjoy it more rather than just say "I'm okay the way things are, so why put in any further effort." It's all about some semblance of symmetrical effort between the parties in an effort to come together. If either person isn't willing to try to bridge the gap, it'll never work. Two way street here. 




Vega said:


> I'm not to sure if we can accurately predict whether desire/frequency will remain constant, increase or decrease. For example, some women have a complete loss of libido during pregnancy. Others can't get enough orgasms during pregnancy. And, to complicate matters even more, desire can change from one pregnancy to another.
> Like I tried to point out earlier, it's not that the LD thinks that the HD could or even should be happy with the reduction in frequency. The LD can feel that no matter what he or she does, it will never be 'enough' for the HD to be happy.


This reinforces what I said in response to the previous paragraph. The couple must be willing to work to come together. This paragraph just adds the fact that this is not a one-time thing. We can't just come together once and claim victory 'til death do us part. Both partners will evolve, change, and grow physically, mentally, and emotionally, so both must want to continually readjust as necessary to keep the best balance. This sounds like work and can be depressing for some, but it beats the alternative. If we stagnate, we die. Part of the joy of a lifetime together is the growing together, the freshness of the individual evolution and the translation of that into the evolution of the union. Successful couples relish in this continual growth and the joy of working together to make it work. 




Vega said:


> Perhaps you don't expect your wife to 'service' you but as you can see by these threads, other people seem to have a different opinion. The LD should 'accommodate' the HD, at least somewhat. Many HD's KNOW that their LD partner isn't really into sex as often as the HD. But as long as the HD is "getting theirs"... (Note- This does NOT mean that *I* think that all you TAM HD's reading this thread do this)
> I think someone on this thread wrote that sex is a "given" in marriage. It's an_ expectation_; a close 'cousin' of entitlement. "I am entitled to sex BECAUSE I'm married", yadda, yadda, yadda. Marriage=sex. But once again, HOW MUCH???? Our marriage vows don't explicitly say.


Sex most certainly is a reasonable expectation in marriage, unless there is some sort of explicit agreement otherwise going in. How much? That is to be negotiated between each couple. Again, it's all about whether or not the couple can work together to find an appropriate balance. Sometimes the gap is too wide; sometimes one or both partners is unwilling to make the effort. It's sooooo easy to think you're doing more than your part and your partner isn't--it's just human nature, and I see plenty of folks on TAM who think that. 

The problem here is that successful relationships need balance, symmetry. Typically, the LD has all the power. This is not symmetrical. Review the LD/HD threads on this site and you will find that it's typically the HD that adapts to the LD. The HD may expect some accommodation, but that's not often what happens. With open eyes, you can see the source of the general contention that things are more often than not skewed toward the LDs position.

Knowing this aspect of human nature, I strive for self awareness and always work to meet more than halfway, often to my own detriment, but I would rather err on the side of giving too much rather than not enough. I'm not the only one. Please refer to FaithfulWife's previous acklnowledgement of Fozz'y level of understanding given his being on the HD end of a challenging mismatch. Also, please refer to all the posts by wives who have said they don't refuse their husbands, because they know the importance of sex in the relationship -- they are living proof that the LD can adapt without making herself miserable in the process. 





Vega said:


> I feel the same way, but so many other HD's do not. How often do we hear, "After a few days of not having sex with my wife/husband, I start to feel resentment/worthless/not-as-"connected". It makes me wonder, is it SEX that they 'love', or their partner? If they're not having 'regular' consistent sex with their partner, their "love" for their partner starts to dwindle. Makes me question how much "love" they had for their partner in the first place...
> Once again, HOW MUCH?


The love is still there, even if there is resentment, or diminished feel of connection. Don't confuse the two. But one can be in love and still feel unfulfilled. When one partner is unwilling to make an effort to pleas the other, that will cause problems. This works both ways. Think about it from an LD POV; it is hard on the LD because if the HD is constantly hounding them for sex and not providing her other needs, there will be feelings of worthlessness, "I'm just a vagina to him," feelings of not being loved, etc. The HD response to not getting what he needs is much the same, feelings of worthlessness, "I'm just a paycheck," feelings of not being loved (not necessarily because he's not getting sex, but rather that his partner doesn't care enough to make some effort). Neither of these can situations can sustain a relationship.




Vega said:


> Isn't it odd how many relationships outside of sex seem to last longer than those that include "regular" sex? Could it be that the foundation of an intimate relationship should be about the rest of the relationship and not put sex ahead of it?


That's because relationships out of sex are less complex, thus easier to maintain. In determining the "foundation of an intimate relationship," we have to define what we mean by "intimate relationship." There are multiple forms of intimacy. A marriage includes _all _these forms of intimacy and without any one of them, there will be problems. Again, if the LD is not getting emotional intimacy, she will call that out as a problem, so why fault a HD for having difficulty with a lack of physical intimacy? 

As for relationships outside sex "lasting longer," we need to make a differentiation between merely "lasting" and actually thriving. It's the difference between merely existing and really _living_. Just because a relationship lasts, doesn't mean it's healthy. There are plenty of relationships here on TAM that soldier on, but nobody would mistake them for healthy relationships. A marriage can _survive_, but it can not _thrive _without all forms of intimacy. Otherwise it's just roommates--friends often _without _benefits. Ugh.


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## podiumboy (Apr 2, 2017)

My wife is LD, and sometimes views sex with as much enthusiasm as cleaning the toilet or washing the dishes... stuff that needs done. She wasn't always that way, but we've been together for 11 years, have 2 kids, and several other factors are weighing against us. She is very giving as far as she knows I need sex 1-2 times per week, and she provides that, but she could probably do without it.

I notice that if I act indifferent towards her sexually for a few days or a week, she'll come on to me, or do things like change in front of me or be more affectionate. That sex is usually better. I'm not "UN-ROMANTIC", our lives are just such that sex has to be scheduled, or else it may not happen.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> Do you prefer it that way? Would you prefer your husband to initiate more, even if that meant you'd be having more sex than your natural inclination? Or does it work better for you that he leaves it to you to set the pace?


To clarify since a lot of people picked up my post - I cannot remember a time in our relationship when he initiated or I rejected him. I can remember a couple of times when he mentioned to me outside the bedroom - why don't we have sex sometime soon. Literally said just like that. I don't count that as initiating because it wasn't followed by any action on his part. 

What I *think* might be happening is that he *thinks* he's initiating by doing something so nondescript that I don't even notice it, and that I don't respond the way he wanted me to, so I am therefore rejecting him. I've only recently started thinking this. Things like scooting a few inches closer on the couch when we are watching TV. Rolling over in bed (but not touching me). 

So I personally do not see our situation as "omg he's been rejected sooo many times the poor guy, of course he won't initiate!". He just waits for me to come to him.

Would I like him to initiate more - Yes and no. I AM worried that if he initiated more I'd be on the hook to make sure I said yes every single time lest he get hurt over it. I know my drive is lower than his so I know he'd want it more than me. I think he knows this too which also keeps him from pursuing me. However, yes, I wish he was more forthcoming and actually tried to start things once in awhile. Since he doesn't initiate, we start things off cold...I have to get myself in the mood and get myself to a certain arousal before I approach him. THAT takes a lot of work for me. 

It had been 2 weeks for us, and I was trying to wait a bit and see if he'd do anything that indicated he realized how long it had been. I had been wanting him for a few days at that point. Life also gets in the way so we have to work to make time for sex. I finally broke last night and said hey - it's been a long time - why haven't you approached me? And he responded without words by pouncing on me. So I guess he's always just going to wait for my signal. Sometimes it bothers me but I don't see a good solution to it so I just let it continue as is. 

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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

I went through a period where I wouldn't initiate because of the high probability of rejection. Meanwhile, on the rare occasions when my wife was in the mood, I would never refuse, no matter how cranky I was from all the rejection or lack of activity. 

By letting her be the only initiator, nobody ever had to suffer rejection. 

But I woke up one day and decided I was strong enough to handle rejection. I decided that even if my wife was not up for increased frequency, she should still know that I desire her; even if she couldn't follow through as often as I would like, she would still appreciate me being smitten with her. 

Attempts to initiate were never put forth as pressure, never ultimatums, never needy, never designed to make her feel bad about not following through or that she was a disappointment to me. Rejections were never followed by pouting or retaliation of any kind. I wanted her to be free to enjoy being the object of affection, pure and simple. 

Of course, this behavior was also accompanied by the type of non-sexual touching she enjoys whenever not specifically making sexual advances.

This turned out to be good for our relationship and we have both benefited. It has enriched our relationship both in and out of the bedroom.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

I'd flat out tell him it is his job to initiate 1/2 the time and you define what that is - once in a month, twice in a month, once in a week. Say it is an experiment, you think you can be responsive but are not sure. 

I would think that would be harder than you warming yourself up to it but you say you want him to initiate...


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## Phil Anders (Jun 24, 2015)

My take after seeing some of your posts: 

You don't have to reject him for him to feel rejected. He's massively intimidated by your _:shrug: give me the D papers any time and I'll sign them_ indifference. I can guarantee that attitude shows thru and screams implicit rejection at him, even if you never say those words and you do other nice things for him. 

He knows full well you [mostly] don't care a whit about sexual intimacy, and he is painfully conscious of encountering that dead-eyed _:shrug:_ in the course of any open bid he might make. Conversely, he lives for the occasions you initiate and he can put his fears aside in the moment because he knows you're intent on being with him. 

The rest of the time, he'll test the waters with you, using extremely subtle feelers: subtle, because for him, they have to be plausibly deniable. The more familiar you are with each other, the more infinitesimal his covert bids must become to stay below the radar. Rolling over toward you in bed? Fine. Touching you? Way too obvious. He knows that you know he doesn't typically do that--so it would have to Mean Something: Initiation detected, rejection risk high! 

If you bite on a "feeler," he gets that momentary sense of safety and can perform confidently; if not, he hasn't "lost" anything because no sex is the status quo, and he avoids triggering a rejection (or an exposure to your terrifying indifference, which amounts to the same thing). He swallows his hurt and pretends to be unruffled to match you...at least until it wells up and explodes because unlike you, that's not who he really is. 

Not saying his behavior is healthy, or yours improper, but I think that's the dynamic. Absent some major shift in your dynamic, if you want him to learn to come at you openly I'd agree that you are indeed "on the hook" to make some positive, giving response that doesn't look like _:shrug:_, even if it isn't full-on passionate sex.



kag123 said:


> To clarify since a lot of people picked up my post - I cannot remember a time in our relationship when he initiated or I rejected him. I can remember a couple of times when he mentioned to me outside the bedroom - why don't we have sex sometime soon. Literally said just like that. I don't count that as initiating because it wasn't followed by any action on his part.
> 
> What I *think* might be happening is that he *thinks* he's initiating by doing something so nondescript that I don't even notice it, and that I don't respond the way he wanted me to, so I am therefore rejecting him. I've only recently started thinking this. Things like scooting a few inches closer on the couch when we are watching TV. Rolling over in bed (but not touching me).
> 
> ...


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Phil Anders said:


> My take after seeing some of your posts:
> 
> You don't have to reject him for him to feel rejected. He's massively intimidated by your _:shrug: give me the D papers any time and I'll sign them_ indifference. I can guarantee that attitude shows thru and screams implicit rejection at him, even if you never say those words and you do other nice things for him.
> 
> ...


Yes good point, I 100% agree with your assessment. Yet another reason I don't really push for any different action from him. I do realize that to someone who is not like me, I must be pretty difficult to be married to!

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## Phil Anders (Jun 24, 2015)

kag123 said:


> Yes good point, I 100% agree with your assessment. Yet another reason I don't really push for any different action from him. I do realize that to someone who is not like me, I must be pretty difficult to be married to!


I think that may indeed be true for him. 

As for different action? Implicit in my take is that he views sex as an immediate go/no-go proposition: You (general) initiate and the venture either succeeds or fails right there on the spot. 

But you (kag) complain of having to start "cold" and say it takes a long time to get yourself warmed up. Are there constructive things he could do in advance to help warm you up over a longer period without it seeming transactional or threatening to either of you?


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

Spitfire said:


> It kind of seemed odd to me too. She's never really set a day like that before. She's always open to the idea of having sex more often right after having it but that sentiment doesn't last long. I had thought about initiating Tuesday but she made it clear ahead of time that she "wasn't feeling well". I wouldn't want to appear "insensitive" by still initiating sex lol. It's all a game of control.




Don't let more than 3 days go by....after that, the effects wane and it's out of sight out of mind.



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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

Interesting...as I would consider myself HD (female) I can also "turn it off". Meaning ...after 3 days of no sex of any kind, it goes away. Could be a couple of weeks before it even crosses my mind.
I was married years ago, it was sexless and he refused to discuss it or seek help, never initiated and it was 19 months of nothing when I left.
I learned how to turn it off. I didn't die. I found other outlets. But I couldn't ever give up the belief that it was the only way I could really be myself, and connect with another person. That's what makes it a relationship, a connection. 
My partner could be annoyed at me or offended ...I still think they should drop their pants and make up.
Best way for my partner to cheer me up...drop their pants.
It's the way we can drop opinions and just be real. Naked. No labels.
But...I'm in the end of a relationship with a partner who has narcissistic tendencies and everything is opinions and manipulation. So it's a boundary for me right now. It's either "be yourself " and get over yourself or don't ask me.
I recently heard "unless there is a medical reason you should meet my needs". (He still doesn't quite grasp that we are done). 
Or the fact that the need is really for your partner to accept you just being yourself and being receptive to that. If he could ever be himself and not put conditions and judgments on everything, he might get that.
As soon as someone starts analyzing everything you do and voicing they wish things were different, I think women sense that. We aren't being accepted as we are. It's the most vulnerable thing we can share. And it's not good enough? 
In my case, he truly had no idea of how HD I am, I never let him know. There was always comments though. Not enough hugging and foreplay ...he needs a large amount of precise words of affirmation (to the point of narcissistic) and just generally not happy with life. Offended by things people say. Not able to DROP opinions labels and be himself. So Even though frequency was 5 times a week in some form or another, what others think mattered more.
Screw that. I'm not trying to please someone else's ego or meet needs they should be filling themselves.
I'm just being myself and giving of myself.
I know a lot of my female friends also feel this way. It's about being accepted as who you are, and not being judged as not enough when you are giving the one thing to your partner you don't give to anyone else and they still aren't happy. It feels like such a deep failure.
There isn't a connection after all. Just opinions and judgement and right and wrong and entitlement and the shallow end.
'i' want to hear that intimacy is expressing who you really are, giving of yourself not demanding a deposit in your self esteem account.
Giving of yourself.
Not taking from the other person.





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