# Tackle football



## Ikaika

Caveat, I never played tackle football as a youth and not that I dislike the sport, it is just that surfing as more my forte growing up. 

My youngest transitioned from playing flag football the last two years to tackle football this year. My wife was not crazy about it but I finally assured her that he would be ok and that the risk of serious injury is statically lower than sports like soccer and basketball. In a conversation with several other dads (those who did play in their youth), they commented that the rosters of teams nowadays are smaller and some programs are too small to remain open. My sons team barely fills two whole squads of 11. Just wondering if this is because all the negative press about the NFL and concussions or that there are just more competing sports?


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## SpinDaddy

Howdy D,

I think what you say is part of it but I also think some other things are factoring in.

First, there are so many sports options now days. My kids ages 6 and 9 are doing triathalons. Triathalons serriously? We never had that when I was a kid.

Second, everything is more hard core and one sport oriented now days. E.g., my kids do swim team. Practice is 6-days a week. No time for much else.

Third. Parental commitment to extracurricular non-core activities is waining with our generation of parents. E.g., Scouting, YMCA, church and etc. I think this phenomena is also showing up in the "marque" activities like Pop Warner.


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## MaritimeGuy

I suspect it does come partly from parents worrying about their kids getting hurt. I played football as a kid and found it to be less aggressive in a way than other sports. In football you could legally hit your opponent as hard as you can. No need for cheap shots like you might see in other sports that are more likely to injure. The key I think is good coaches who can teach the skills properly.


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## dormant

I suspect I will get bashed for my opinion here, but I see Football as proof that the human race has not evolved enough yet. This sport proves we have not evolved much beyond caveman.


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## Giro flee

My kid got a concussion in practice when he was eleven, he never went back. He enjoys many sports, no need for him to risk that.


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## EnjoliWoman

In my area it's definitely more about the other choices. When I was in school there was football, basketball and softball tennis or volleyball (volleyball was girls only). 

At my daughter's school there is football, basketball, baseball, volleyball, tennis, wrestling, golf, swimming, soccer and lacrosse. 

It seems to me soccer is taking place of football for a lot of kids. I don't know if it's the injury potential but every sport has that possibility.


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## rubymoon

dormant said:


> I suspect I will get bashed for my opinion here, but I see Football as proof that the human race has not evolved enough yet. This sport proves we have not evolved much beyond caveman.


We never will until we become Gods. We are animals in our nature, with bells and whistels attached later as the civilization developed. But our core will always be there.


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## Ikaika

EnjoliWoman said:


> In my area it's definitely more about the other choices. When I was in school there was football, basketball and softball tennis or volleyball (volleyball was girls only).
> 
> At my daughter's school there is football, basketball, baseball, volleyball, tennis, wrestling, golf, swimming, soccer and lacrosse.
> 
> It seems to me soccer is taking place of football for a lot of kids. I don't know if it's the injury potential but every sport has that possibility.



Volleyball is a religion in Hawai'i

http://youtu.be/CA-KBkJCRlE


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## rubymoon

My son is in football, and quite successfully so. I am proud of him and I support him because that's what HE wants to do. My H played fb when he was in high school, too. 

Some kids are not built for soccer or swimming.


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## Ikaika

Giro flee said:


> My kid got a concussion in practice when he was eleven, he never went back. He enjoys many sports, no need for him to risk that.



The risk are definitely real, and I know even with good coaching as I see on my sons team, that not everything can be avoided. 

Concussion Rates per Sport

The below numbers indicate the amount of sports concussions taking place per 100,000 athletic exposures. An athletic exposure is defined as one athlete participating in one organized high school athletic practice or competition, regardless of the amount of time played.

Football: 64 -76.8
Boys' ice hockey: 54
Girl's soccer: 33
Boys' lacrosse: 40 - 46.6
Girls' lacrosse: 31 - 35
Boys' soccer: 19 - 19.2
Boys' wrestling: 22 - 23.9
Girls' basketball: 18.6 - 21
Girls' softball: 16 - 16.3
Boys' basketball: 16 - 21.2
Girls' field hockey: 22 - 24.9
Cheerleading: 11.5 to 14
Girls' volleyball: 6 - 8.6
Boys' baseball: Between 4.6 - 5
Girls' gymnastics: 7


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## MaritimeGuy

I think soccer is becoming so popular largely because of the cost factor. Basically all you need is jersey, shorts, shoes and a ball. Generally the cost of putting your kid in soccer is much lower than most other sports.


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## Ikaika

MaritimeGuy said:


> I think soccer is becoming so popular largely because of the cost factor. Basically all you need is jersey, shorts, shoes and a ball. Generally the cost of putting your kid in soccer is much lower than most other sports.



I would agree, and have heard as much from parents on my sons team. Even if you just pay the initial fee to get the basic equipment, bought through the association, you quickly learn that most of what is purchased is not that quality. So, one ends up buying updated equipment, not all shoulder pads are made equal.


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## bbdad

I'm glad that I have girls and they do dance and gymnastics. I grew up playing JFL Football. However, with what we know about concussions and such, I would honestly have a hard time putting my kid in tackle football. I have talked to a few other parents that are trying to decide if they let their kids play football or not. It is about 50/50 on those that will and those that won't go the tackle football route.

I would honestly encourage wrestling, judo or MMA as an alternative to football if I had boys. I hate to think it is the "sissification" of the American male that is leading to the drop in football playing, but truly a safety concern.


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## tom67

This is why fewer kids are playing football.

Chronic traumatic encephalopathy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Ikaika

bbdad said:


> I'm glad that I have girls and they do dance and gymnastics. I grew up playing JFL Football. However, with what we know about concussions and such, I would honestly have a hard time putting my kid in tackle football. I have talked to a few other parents that are trying to decide if they let their kids play football or not. It is about 50/50 on those that will and those that won't go the tackle football route.
> 
> I would honestly encourage wrestling, judo or MMA as an alternative to football if I had boys. I hate to think it is the "sissification" of the American male that is leading to the drop in football playing, but truly a safety concern.



I hear what you are saying and I had my youngest in Karate for years, but he kept pushing me wanting to play football. We gave in this year. The way I see it, past this point he will realize quickly he is too small for this sport the next level up and hopefully find something else.


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## rubymoon

bbdad said:


> I'm glad that I have girls and they do dance and gymnastics.


I come originally from the country were gymnastics is a big deal. It's an extremaly dangerous sport if your girls go serious about it. Gymnasts joke that there is not a single bone in their bodies that hasn't been broken by the age of 15.


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## Ikaika

Although no sport is completely safe. In HS I was a big wave surfer and I'm talking big waves

http://youtu.be/FI8xQBY1WZ8

To this day from time to time I have to sit out my regular workouts for a week or so due to pains associated with back and shoulder injuries of my past.


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## VermisciousKnid

tom67 said:


> This is why fewer kids are playing football.
> 
> Chronic traumatic encephalopathy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


You beat me to it. I sometimes listen to sports talk radio while driving in to work and the topic started with Wes Welker's latest concussion and moved to the declining numbers of kids in youth football. A number of parents called in to say that they knew of high school players who were already showing signs of CTE, and that's what convinced them to pull their kids from the sport. 

And they discussed some statistics that were really surprising, if mostly anecdotal. One professional linebacker estimated that according to the current protocol he probably had accumulated 1500 concussions by the end of his ten year career. He played in the 1980s and 1990s. Most of the concussions were sustained in practice, not during actual games. 

We tend to think of players only taking that kind of punishment in the game, but it's part of practice too. I know they're going to great lengths to make practice safer, but I imagine that there has to be the occasional accidental helmet hit from time to time.


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## Anonymous07

I'm all for sports and played many myself as a child(played soccer for 8 years, volleyball for 4 years, basketball for 2 years, ran track for 3 years, etc.), but I really, really hope my son never wants to play football. I've sprained ankles(multiple times) and hurt myself with soccer/other sports, but football has a much larger potential for head injuries. I would rather he choose a sport that doesn't purposely try to knock out the opponent. He's only 1, so I have a while, but right now he likes soccer.


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## turnera

Interesting take:
A Fan Says No To Football | Here & Now

I love how he says we could be spending this money on making the SCHOOLS better.


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## MaritimeGuy

My kids are basically grown now however I wouldn't have had any issue putting my kid in football if he had expressed an interest in it. There is risk in pretty much everything we do today. You could bubble wrap them and never let them leave the house but then what kind of life would that be.


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## MaritimeGuy

rubymoon said:


> I come originally from the country were gymnastics is a big deal. It's an extremaly dangerous sport if your girls go serious about it. Gymnasts joke that there is not a single bone in their bodies that hasn't been broken by the age of 15.


My kids did it when they were little and we used to see the competitive ones there who looked to be in their early teens. Not one wasn't wearing at least one knee brace.


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## Ikaika

turnera said:


> Interesting take:
> A Fan Says No To Football | Here & Now
> 
> I love how he says we could be spending this money on making the SCHOOLS better.



I like the basis of his argument, and agree. However, I would have preferred he stick with sports related injuries related to dementia. 

The problem with including a relative who had dementia (non-athlete) is that most of these are related to poor cardiovascular fitness than head trauma. But, I get the point he was making. 

Let's just say inactivity and over consumption of sugary carbonated beverages are as dangerous as any collision sport. Simply my opinion.


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## rubymoon

Comparison of today's FB to 1980-1990 is invalid. Helmets greatly improved since then. Nowadays neck injuries are more common than before, and head injuries are not so much. 

An injury is still an injury though. I vote for bubble wrapping em! Mine is 6'2" and 230 pounds - I will need a ton of bubble wrap!


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## Anonymous07

MaritimeGuy said:


> My kids are basically grown now however I wouldn't have had any issue putting my kid in football if he had expressed an interest in it. There is risk in pretty much everything we do today. You could bubble wrap them and never let them leave the house but then what kind of life would that be.


Obviously you can't and wouldn't want to bubble wrap your child(ren), but you should(or at least I think) want to take calculated risks. I would rather my child play in the backyard than in the street, since the risk of him getting hurt is a lot less. I would rather he choose a sport like soccer over football since the risk of serious injury is lower. Head/neck injuries are very serious compared to spraining an ankle or other injuries, and they are fairly common in football. My uncle had a few concussions playing football in high school and has memory issues now. 

Some things are just too risky in my opinion and wouldn't be worth it.


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## SimplyAmorous

Don't know if other schools are doing this, but ours is asking all kids who participate in sports to get a baseline concussion screening..

My H works with a man whose son has been in the hospital a few times... for a concussion, has a plate in his knee, got a staff infection..and he's just a senior... 

Our kids are not of the beefy type... 2nd son wanted to play.. I was so thankful he is too busy with cross country / track & Band.. I really think I would have forbidden it...just so nervous about him getting hurt....

Though it seems for some kids, it's almost in the blood and you can't stop them -for them THE RISK is worth it.. I was always asking.. why did we have so many sons...it's not right... me & my H doesn't even like sports!....... We ended up with the runners, musicians...and Tennis players...I can live with that..

Then I was worrying our oldest wouldn't get hit by a car running down our country road...he used to run to town miles away.


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## Ikaika

SimplyAmorous said:


> Don't know if other schools are doing this, but ours is asking all kids who participate in sports to get a baseline concussion screening..


I would say this is likely a great idea. I love competition, and yes, I admit I do like football as does my son, but a part of me does worry. 




SimplyAmorous said:


> Our kids are not of the beefy type... 2nd son wanted to play.. I was so thankful he is too busy with cross country / track & Band.. I really think I would have forbidden it...*just so nervous about him getting hurt*....


I can empathize and totally understand this reaction, however my son so wants to play football. I just hope once he gets past this level (for which he is one of the bigger kids), he will realize this is a sport for "big" people, for which he is not naturally built that way. 



SimplyAmorous said:


> Though it seems for some kids, it's *almost in the blood and you can't stop them -for them THE RISK is worth it*.. I was always asking.. why did we have so many sons...it's not right... me & my H doesn't even like sports!....... We ended up with the runners, musicians...and Tennis players...I can live with that..
> 
> Then I was worrying our oldest wouldn't get hit by a car running down our country road...he used to run to town miles away.


Bold - you know my son 

Musicians get other injuries


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## rubymoon

Has anyone considered that a kid can get concussio from getting hit by someone else in a fight? Not advocating FB, but protecting kids from everything life presents is not the way to tech them to be prepared for real life.


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## coffee4me

SimplyAmorous said:


> Though it seems for some kids, it's almost in the blood and you can't stop them -for them THE RISK is worth it..


That's it exactly SA! 

What compels a 16 year old kid to get up at 5:30 am everyday the last 2 weeks of summer vacation. 

What keeps him going back for more when he has had 14 practices in 9 days each 3-4 hours long. 

What keeps him moving his bruised body and stiff muscles day after day through countless practices adding in school, homework and missed time with friends. 

A love of the game, pure and simple. A drive for competition and sportsmanship. The feeling of being part of a team that is teaching him discipline and making him work hard to be the best at what he does. Respect for coaches that push hard to bring out the best in him. 

I don't worry about him getting injured but he is built for the game. Strangers ask him if he plays football. He actually has reduced his risk of injury taking on football. He used to do competitive martial arts and at his level an axe kick to the head is much more likely to give you a concussion than tackling on the line. Luckily he's never had a concussion in either sport, it's quite hard to knock him over. 

To answer your question D. (Hi D ) 
In my area parents don't want to risk their kids getting injured. Parents and kids don't want the time commitment it is a very big commitment. There is also a financial commitment, even thou its a public school the budget only pays about 10% of what it costs to run the football program. Parents make up the rest with fund raising and donations.


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## Ikaika

rubymoon said:


> Has anyone considered that a kid can get concussio from getting hit by someone else in a fight? Not advocating FB, but protecting kids from everything life presents is not the way to tech them to be prepared for real life.



Oh yea, I have seen it happen.

Again, I did allow my son to play tackle football, even though I don't think he is necessarily built like your typical football player. We talked about the risk and it was me, doing my homework to convince my wife to let him join. He loves it. Plays TE (primary position), defensive tackle, linebacker and DB. They have him all over the field.


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## Ikaika

His nickname on the team is "sure hands". He has the ability to catch and hold onto the ball in traffic just before being thumped. He can block too, which surprised me.


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## seeking sanity

My 10 year old has absolutely fallen in love with football. I think the risk is totally worth it since he has something he is passionate about. We play catch nearly every day, he's already got a Instagram account with a bunch of pro football players who have "liked/followed/whatever you do on instagram". It's fantastic for him. 

The only problem is that there isn't a lot of interest where I live, so this fall the league is having trouble fielding a team.


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## MaritimeGuy

Anonymous07 said:


> Obviously you can't and wouldn't want to bubble wrap your child(ren), but you should(or at least I think) want to take calculated risks. I would rather my child play in the backyard than in the street, since the risk of him getting hurt is a lot less. I would rather he choose a sport like soccer over football since the risk of serious injury is lower. Head/neck injuries are very serious compared to spraining an ankle or other injuries, and they are fairly common in football. My uncle had a few concussions playing football in high school and has memory issues now.
> 
> Some things are just too risky in my opinion and wouldn't be worth it.


I don't know statistics so I can't speak to that. I believe the majority of kids who play football never incur a concussion. 

There are a million ways you can get a concussion. Hockey is popular here in Canada. Concussions are common in hockey. My daughter had one after going down and going head first into the boards. With football you pretty much always know the hit is coming so can prepare for it. In a lot of another sports you often don't.

You can also easily get a concussion falling off a bike, scooter or skateboard. I know a guy who's daughter was playing keeper in soccer who when trying to make a save hit her head on the goal post. She spent eight months in a darkened room. Couldn't go to school, read, watch television, use a computer without triggering violent headaches. 

There is risk in everything. I agree you try to manage that risk but I don't see football as being that much more of a risk than most other activities kids engage in. 

There are so many positives to football. It teaches sportsmanship. It teached teamwork. It allows kids to channel aggression in a positive way. It promotes fitness. All skills that will be good for a person later in life.


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## rubymoon

Coffee4me - totally agree! I am in the same boat with my son. He got never interested in soccer, tennis, swimming, dancing... eventually, lost interest in wrestling. But he loves fb and keeps going!


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## Ikaika

So my son is going into game four of their short season, half way into regular season. One thing I will say, I have learned a lot about "the new equipment" standards available to your youth football player. I have also learned that a lot of coaches and team "equipment managers" are not very knowledgeable about new equipment available. I still trust my son's coaches in teaching proper fundamentals of the game and safe practices, but not so much on equipment. 

At the beginning of the season, they issued my son the basic gear. The helmet was oversized and underrated. On day one my son complained to me about it. I initially trusted that the coaches understood sizing and the helmets they issued. I did my research. Come to find out, the youth large they fitted should have been a youth medium. Also, the helmet itself only received a two star rating (reputable unbiased ranking system, based on multiple factors). I immediately realized, my son needed better protection. I measured once, twice and three times and found a selection of helmets that were all five star, highest score. I went a bit overboard and order two, of two different models types and manufactures. I quickly discovered that not all chin straps and mouth pieces are the same. Total upgrades, $800+, but worth the price considering the alternative. He now says he only hears hits and the package is a 100x more comfortable and he just feels more secure. 

The shoulder pads... Another basic package issue. Again, the standard issue was total crap. The elastic locks, I recognized right away were going to be problematic. Again my son about shoulder pains after every practice. So back to my research. I replaced these with better protection, comfort and durability, secured by belts. My son hits harder and has yet to complain of any shoulder issues after practice. Price upgrade, $350. Then onto hip and tailbone pads, same thing standard issue, very inadequate. I upgraded as well and added a padded shirt under the shoulder pads along with a back plate (guarding against cheap shots), another $200. 

Final issue, we were playing a team last week and I noticed that a player on the other side was using a varsity helmet. How did I know? During my research I found certain models are only offered in varsity. Why was it important for me to protest when coaches on both sides were scratching their heads?

Youth football helmets are made with ABS plastic, which is lightweight, durable, and designed to withstand a great amount of force, but nothing more than a large child could exude.

Adult helmets are made with a substantially stronger, lighter-weight Polycarbonate material, designed to offer maximum protection for incredible impact force, especially in helmet-to-helmet contact.


Youth leagues are supposed to regulate the wearing of adult Polycarbonate helmets - illegal, since, in a helmet-to-helmet collision, a Polycarbonate helmet could damage an ABS helmet, and the seriously injure the player inside. Conversely, High School leagues exclusively require Polycarbonate helmets to better protect their players from the increased force of hits between stronger, older players.

I won the argument, and the boy had to find a youth helmet to wear. The coaches on the other side were not happy, but I think it is important that parents are informed.


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## Ikaika

If my son continues as he says he want to, I may volunteer as an equipment manager as he progresses to the next level next year.


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## Mr. Nail

Interestingly in 5.5 years of active scouting. My son has had 2 cases of trench foot and a rather nasty stab wound to his thigh (yes the scary side). This year he suffered a minor groin injury while taking down a tee-pee. (3" lodge pole center line) I guess nothing is safe. My only sport related injury was in a touch football game (broken collar bone) For the record I wrestled varsity high school 4 years, 3 years JV football, 4 years track and field (sprinting). 

At the time my son got interested in sports I said ok, please start with cross country so you will have the stamina that I always was short of. He just chose scouting soon after that.

MN


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## bbdad

Again, I am glad that I have girls that are not interested in tackle football. Just recently a family friend was playing in a game during his senior year. He got hit very hard and had to be rushed to the hospital. He had to be put in a medical coma for a brief period. He was released from the hospital shortly after with a major concussion.

Prior to this, the kid was one of the stars on the team and had several college scouts checking him out. He had already been offered full ride scholarships to smaller schools, but he was holding out for some bigger ones that he wanted to attend.

Now, it is unlikely that he will ever be medically cleared to play again. This kid is 260 lbs and 6'2 playing O-line. He is not some little QB that got his bell rung. I can't imagine the force of the impact that took him out. Fortunately, I didn't get to see it.

I have several friends whose kids play tackle football and are doing OK. However, I do not think I would allow my kids to play tackle if they desired. I know that it may sound wimpy, but that is just my take on it. I would rather have them in wrestling or track.


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## Ikaika

bbdad said:


> Again, I am glad that I have girls that are not interested in tackle football. Just recently a family friend was playing in a game during his senior year. He got hit very hard and had to be rushed to the hospital. He had to be put in a medical coma for a brief period. He was released from the hospital shortly after with a major concussion.
> 
> Prior to this, the kid was one of the stars on the team and had several college scouts checking him out. He had already been offered full ride scholarships to smaller schools, but he was holding out for some bigger ones that he wanted to attend.
> 
> Now, it is unlikely that he will ever be medically cleared to play again. This kid is 260 lbs and 6'2 playing O-line. He is not some little QB that got his bell rung. I can't imagine the force of the impact that took him out. Fortunately, I didn't get to see it.
> 
> I have several friends whose kids play tackle football and are doing OK. However, I do not think I would allow my kids to play tackle if they desired. I know that it may sound wimpy, but that is just my take on it. I would rather have them in wrestling or track.



Not wimpy, I figure my son will eventually realize his size will be a limitation. He also likes basketball and will be on the school team two weeks after football and two weeks after basketball, it will be track and field.


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## SimplyAmorous

bbdad said:


> Again, I am glad that I have girls that are not interested in tackle football. Just recently a family friend was playing in a game during his senior year. He got hit very hard and had to be rushed to the hospital. He had to be put in a medical coma for a brief period. He was released from the hospital shortly after with a major concussion.
> 
> Prior to this, the kid was one of the stars on the team and had several college scouts checking him out. He had already been offered full ride scholarships to smaller schools, but he was holding out for some bigger ones that he wanted to attend.
> 
> Now, it is unlikely that he will ever be medically cleared to play again. This kid is 260 lbs and 6'2 playing O-line. He is not some little QB that got his bell rung. I can't imagine the force of the impact that took him out. Fortunately, I didn't get to see it.
> 
> I have several friends whose kids play tackle football and are doing OK. However, I do not think I would allow my kids to play tackle if they desired. I know that it may sound wimpy, but that is just my take on it. I would rather have them in wrestling or track.


I caught the new edition of TIME magazine days ago... 











 Football’s Ultimate Cost: The Chad Stover Story | Time - You Tube


Former Tipton football player to be featured in Time Magazine article under the headline “Is Football Worth It?” 

Tragic... I read the whole article, I think it said about 8 teens die a year playing football.. His brother gave it up after he died also... it also spoke of the incidence of head trauma, brain damage, ALS, dementia is higher in all those who have previous played the Game..


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## LongWalk

Football is great entertainment, but lets be honest, healthy human bodies are fodder for the sport. Yes, there are injuries in other sports. Hockey is dangerous. A Canadian friend of mine has young son who is a star on his team. He loves hockey. Soon he will reach the age that checking is allowed. My friend says that once the hitting begins his son must quit.

As long as your son loves it, you're in a tough situation.

Swimming is great sport.


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## Ikaika

LongWalk said:


> Football is great entertainment, but lets be honest, healthy human bodies are fodder for the sport. Yes, there are injuries in other sports. Hockey is dangerous. A Canadian friend of mine has young son who is a star on his team. He loves hockey. Soon he will reach the age that checking is allowed. My friend says that once the hitting begins his son must quit.
> 
> As long as your son loves it, you're in a tough situation.
> 
> Swimming is great sport.



I was a big wave surfer in my teen years and the risk involved were huge. 

I know it is not quite as comparable but it is what it is.


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## soccermom2three

I have soccer players for kids and sometimes they practice next to the football players. Here's what I see every time:

Football coaches with big fat bellies ordering kids around with their whistles when they should be out there themselves doing all the warm ups, exercises and drills.

Soccer coaches doing all the warm ups, exercises and drills along with their players. They even will play in the scrimmage too.


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## MaritimeGuy

I would guess that if you checked the statistics more kids died travelling to school than playing football. Does this mean we should stop sending kids to school? 

For me the most rewarding things in life require taking a risk. Sometimes when we take risks we get hurt. It's life. 

I agree with mitigating risk as one poster did by educating himself about equipment. That's smart. Attempting to eliminate risk altogether is going to lead to a pretty boring life.


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## Ikaika

I do acknowledge football is not without its risk. And, realize that given the other alternative activities, it has higher risk than normal (even with all,the advances in equipment and tackling techniques), but I also realize two things:

I can't reduce all risk in my boys lives. No risk no gains.

I can't tell them the activities I want them to do, rather best to support their interest.


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## LongWalk

Thread jack, sort of: The NFL has special tax free status. Unbelievable that the league that pays Goodell $44m per year in compensation does not pay taxes. They spend a lot lobbying to hold on to that status, which the NHL, NBA and MLB don't enjoy.

Well, of course such a wealthy organization has tons of money to promote the sport. You son may have football heroes. We love our heroes, though we don't know that they are promoted to us.

I read Jerry Kramer's diary three or four times in 6th grade.

The entertainment value of football is great but the cost is very high. Those famous legends who got beat up Sunday after Sunday, they look like hell in early old age. They must have pain in many joints. Can they even play golf?

If you son loved cycling, you'd have to worry about road accidents. Many sports are hard on the body. Baseball is easy.

Do you spear fish?


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## MaritimeGuy

Funny...I played slowpitch one summer. Pulled more groin muscles that summer than I did in 30 years of alpine skiing or competitive volleyball. I think because it's a mix of standing around doing very little followed by short bursts of speed to run for 1st or catch that fly ball. 

On a more serious note I've heard of young kids being killed playing hardball when they get hit in the chest by young phenoms throwing 80mph fastballs.


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## ButtPunch

soccermom2three said:


> I have soccer players for kids and sometimes they practice next to the football players. Here's what I see every time:
> 
> Football coaches with big fat bellies ordering kids around with their whistles when they should be out there themselves doing all the warm ups, exercises and drills.
> 
> Soccer coaches doing all the warm ups, exercises and drills along with their players. They even will play in the scrimmage too.


I coach youth football. My son has played since he was five. I'm 
6'2" and 225 lbs and very low bodyfat. Please don't stereotype coaches and I will not stereotype your kids as being wimps for playing soccer. Cause where I live that is who plays soccer.


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## Ikaika

LongWalk said:


> Thread jack, sort of: The NFL has special tax free status. Unbelievable that the league that pays Goodell $44m per year in compensation does not pay taxes. They spend a lot lobbying to hold on to that status, which the NHL, NBA and MLB don't enjoy.
> 
> Well, of course such a wealthy organization has tons of money to promote the sport. You son may have football heroes. We love our heroes, though we don't know that they are promoted to us.
> 
> I read Jerry Kramer's diary three or four times in 6th grade.
> 
> The entertainment value of football is great but the cost is very high. Those famous legends who got beat up Sunday after Sunday, they look like hell in early old age. They must have pain in many joints. Can they even play golf?
> 
> If you son loved cycling, you'd have to worry about road accidents. Many sports are hard on the body. *Baseball is easy.*
> 
> Do you spear fish?



I agree, NFL should not enjoy non profit status. 

Yes, I used to spearfish a lot growing up. 

And baseball, safe? Not if you want to be competitive:

http://youtu.be/PvfPjkbk5BA


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## ButtPunch

LongWalk said:


> *Baseball is easy.*


Wrong


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## Ikaika

ButtPunch said:


> Wrong



Actually if you want to be really good at baseball, a kid needs to start the moment he/she is walking. Basketball, when the kid starts to run and you hope he/she grows. Volleyball when they start kindergarten. Football and soccer, while still both require skills that most are unaware of, these can be late comer sports that one can catch up to if they have the maturity. But, none of these are completely safe if you are competitive. All of them at some level have the win at all cost mentality. So, it may not be the sport but the competition. 

I for one love competition, but as always it is my job as a parent to teach balance, competition is great on the gridiron, but not necessarily in our interpersonal relationships. Simply my opinion.


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## ButtPunch

drerio said:


> Actually if you want to be really good at baseball, a kid needs to start the moment he/she is walking. Basketball, when the kid starts to run and you hope he/she grows. Volleyball when they start kindergarten. Football and soccer, while still both require skills that most are unaware of, these can be late comer sports that one can catch up to if they have the maturity. But, none of these are completely safe if you are competitive. All of them at some level have the win at all cost mentality. So, it may not be the sport but the competition.
> 
> I for one love competition, but as always it is my job as a parent to teach balance, competition is great on the gridiron, but not necessarily in our interpersonal relationships. Simply my opinion.


Baseball is very developmental. If you aren't born with a baseball mitt in your crib, you can forget hitting a 90 mph fastball. Football is all about athleticism. Size and Speed. You got these two things I promise coach will put you in.


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## Iver

This may be a moot point in about 20 or 30 years...the NFL released information that about a third of their players have some brain injuries.

It will take just one successful lawsuit at the high school level to have tackle football 86'd due to liability insurance requirements.


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## Ikaika

Iver said:


> This may be a moot point in about 20 or 30 years...the NFL released information that about a third of their players have some brain injuries.
> 
> 
> 
> It will take just one successful lawsuit at the high school level to have tackle football 86'd due to liability insurance requirements.



Football makes too much money for sponsors to 86 it. But, then again, if something else takes its place it will happen on the grounds of competing interest.


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## ButtPunch

Iver said:


> This may be a moot point in about 20 or 30 years...the NFL released information that about a third of their players have some brain injuries.
> 
> It will take just one successful lawsuit at the high school level to have tackle football 86'd due to liability insurance requirements.


They are sued all the time. If high school football dies, it will be because of budgets.


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## Ikaika

ButtPunch said:


> They are sued all the time. If high school football dies, it will be because of budgets.



Happens more often than not in college because of travel cost.


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## ButtPunch

FYI

It has been scientifically proven that playing youth football will increase bone strength and the all important bone density of the athlete.


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## MaritimeGuy

I think it would take some pretty hefty lawsuits to do in football. I'm not American but it's my understanding in some regions they are able to sell seasons tickets to high school games. College football games can have 100K spectators and the coaches can make similar money to the president of the country. I'm sure they have the odd lawyer on retainer to protect their interests...


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## Ikaika

ButtPunch said:


> FYI
> 
> It has been scientifically proven that playing youth football will increase bone strength and the all important bone density of the athlete. This is not true for most other sports.


On a somewhat unrelated note, how is your team doing this year? Unfortunately for my son (which includes my son) half of the team, this is there first year playing tackle football. A lot to learn. And, I continue to encourage my son to just do his best and keep his mouth shut and listen to what the coaches are teaching you. It is a cumulative effect of sometimes three year of good coaching before you start to get that football IQ (as you are probably aware). Then you can start to learn the methods of the game that will get you to where you want to be in this sport.


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## GTdad

I'd put up my horse-riding daughter up against most football-playing kids in the broken bone count.


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## ButtPunch

drerio said:


> On a somewhat unrelated note, how is your team doing this year? Unfortunately for my son (which includes my son) half of the team, this is there first year playing tackle football. A lot to learn. And, I continue to encourage my son to just do his best and keep his mouth shut and listen to what the coaches are teaching you. It is a cumulative effect of sometimes three year of good coaching before you start to get that football IQ (as you are probably aware). Then you can start to learn the methods of the game that will get you to where you want to be in this sport.


We had our first loss in two years last Sat. 12-7. We were inside the 10 and came up 6 inches short on fourth down. We moved up in division and the other team had noticeably older and larger kids. We will get another crack at them in playoffs I'm sure.


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## Ikaika

ButtPunch said:


> We had our first loss in two years last Sat. 12-7. We were inside the 10 and came up 6 inches short on fourth down. We moved up in division and the other team had noticeably older and larger kids. W*e will get another crack at them in playoffs I'm sure*.


Awesome. My son's team has scored a cumulative three touchdowns over four games. My son, TE, and one of the bigger and older kids in this division, scored one of them. As I told him, TE is the blue collar lunch pail position, blocking DE, LB and catching the ball just before the "thump". He is getting it. His coach has nothing but praise for him. He works hard at it. 

Next year in intermediate football 7 - 9th graders, he will need to get stronger and faster. So dad, me, will be his personal trainer in the off-season. I told him he will have to be squatting and benching over his body weight by the end of July. He is close. I have all sorts of box exercises to practice explosions and many others. And, we will try to work on cutting down the time on his 40.


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## LongWalk

GTdad said:


> I'd put up my horse-riding daughter up against most football-playing kids in the broken bone count.


As far as fatalities and other serious injuries go, horseback riding ranks at the top. My eldest rode from 5 or 6 to 12 or 13. I was a bit relieved when she quite to concentrate on swimming. Seeing your kid thrown from a shytty pony is agonizing.


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## GTdad

LongWalk said:


> As far as fatalities and other serious injuries go, horseback riding ranks at the top. My eldest rode from 5 or 6 to 12 or 13. I was a bit relieved when she quite to concentrate on swimming. Seeing your kid thrown from a shytty pony is agonizing.


The meanest things on the planet are scorpions, badgers, wolverines, and ponies.


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## ButtPunch

drerio said:


> Awesome. My son's team has scored a cumulative three touchdowns over four games. My son, TE, and one of the bigger and older kids in this division, scored one of them. As I told him, TE is the blue collar lunch pail position, blocking DE, LB and catching the ball just before the "thump". He is getting it. His coach has nothing but praise for him. He works hard at it.
> 
> Next year in intermediate football 7 - 9th graders, he will need to get stronger and faster. So dad, me, will be his personal trainer in the off-season. I told him he will have to be squatting and benching over his body weight by the end of July. He is close. I have all sorts of box exercises to practice explosions and many others. And, we will try to work on cutting down the time on his 40.


Box jumps and ladder exercises work great. I commend you for being a proactive Dad. 


I know you'll think I'm crazy but my eight year old son squatted 185 pounds eight times last Sat. Been lifting weights since he got out of kindergarten. Supervised of course.


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## ButtPunch

GTdad said:


> The meanest things on the planet are scorpions, badgers, wolverines, and ponies.


What about women in the "AFFAIR FOG"?


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## Ikaika

ButtPunch said:


> Box jumps and ladder exercises work great. I commend you for being a proactive Dad.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know you'll think I'm crazy but my eight year old son squatted 185 pounds eight times last Sat. Been lifting weights since he got out of kindergarten. Supervised of course.



Ok, now I know why your team has success. My son has years to catch up. I don't think I could have convinced him he needed to get stronger and faster till he actually joined the team and felt the competition. He sees it now. Next year, hopefully he will be that one notch better and have that breakout game that gives him the confidence to realize he can play this game.


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## Mr. Nail

ButtPunch said:


> What about women in the "AFFAIR FOG"?


I was thinking Sheep myself.

My sport (wrestling) was notorious for neck injuries. In 4 years we never had a neck injury. We trained specifically to prevent those injuries. There is a lot to be said for preventative training.

MN


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## Ikaika

So my son this last season had a relatively successful stint at tackle football. This is one of those leagues where you don't just automatically get a trophy or a post season game just because you showed up to play. It was very competitive, filled with hard work and sacrifice. They did not secure a post season game and my son was disappointed. But, I always see this as a something to learn from and not some demoralizing event in which to coddle him from. I know I will catch criticism, but I rarely tell my son "good job" when he comes off the field. I'm proud of him, but I just want him to keep the fire in his belly. I show him in other ways, but it is just not within my nature to heap too much praise on him. Instead I spend time trying to teach him... Not yelling and I'm never telling him he is worthless or a loser. So I don't take the other extreme like my own father did to me. I'm gruff, a bit rough on the edges but all in love. 

He went right from football to basketball. Also a very competitive league. He is I off-season mode at the moment. 

He is moving up to the next level with camp starting the first week of June. Some of those kids are huge, so in the off-season he has not been able to take it easy.

I was asked by the coaching staff to fill a trainers position. So I have been in trainers mode with my son. We have been (after work and school) trading days between doing weights (in-home weight room) and some dynamic work outside. The latter working on speed, agility, broad jumps and vertical jumps. And yes building up conditioning. 

My wife is still not comfortable with the tackle football, but she is at least a bit more so now that I'm getting him ready and equipping him for what will be a much harder season. He loves it.


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## LongWalk

Underwater rugby is fun


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## arbitrator

*Here in the Lone Star State, football is truly King! More especially at the High School level! You have High School head coaches garnering salaries plus residuals upwards exceeding $120K annually, with absolutely no teaching duties required!

At the youth level, I would greatly recommend that your selected head coach place more emphasis on teaching fundamentals much rather than chalking up "W's on his resume'. Or one out there trying to emulate Vince Lombardi! So many kids go out for flag football as early as 4 years old, greatly pushed by their parents! And sadly enough, when they finally get out there practicing and playing in the sweltering heat, they really don't seem to give a hoot in hell about it; all that they just want to do is to go home and play!

My profound advice as a longtime football referee is to never push your son into playing football until such time that his interest in playing supercedes that of his parents. Let that decision rest squarely with him!*


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## Ikaika

arbitrator said:


> *Here in the Lone Star State, football is truly King! More especially at the High School level! You have High School head coaches garnering salaries plus residuals upwards exceeding $120K annually, with absolutely no teaching duties required!
> 
> At the youth level, I would greatly recommend that your selected head coach place more emphasis on teaching fundamentals much rather than chalking up "W's on his resume'. Or one out there trying to emulate Vince Lombardi! So many kids go out for flag football as early as 4 years old, greatly pushed by their parents! And sadly enough, when they finally get out there practicing and playing in the sweltering heat, they really don't seem to give a hoot in hell about it; all that they just want to do is to go home and play!
> 
> My profound advice as a longtime football referee is to never push your son into playing football until such time that his interest in playing supercedes that of his parents. Let that decision rest squarely with him!*



I agree, my training of my son is built around, he loves playing but he is not naturally a large person playing a big mans game. I want him to be able to be able to compete but do so safely.


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## Cobalt

Ikaika said:


> Caveat, I never played tackle football as a youth and not that I dislike the sport, it is just that surfing as more my forte growing up.
> 
> My youngest transitioned from playing flag football the last two years to tackle football this year. My wife was not crazy about it but I finally assured her that he would be ok and that the risk of serious injury is statically lower than sports like soccer and basketball. In a conversation with several other dads (those who did play in their youth), they commented that the rosters of teams nowadays are smaller and some programs are too small to remain open. My sons team barely fills two whole squads of 11. Just wondering if this is because all the negative press about the NFL and concussions or that there are just more competing sports?


I played football as a kid and through high school. I can assure you that football is the most dangerous sport to play. I have played football, rugby, ice hockey, boxing, MMA etc and it's not even close. 

That said, if my son was built physically for football and wanted to play, I would let him. I can't stand soccer and basketball, Total yawnfest, IMO.


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## coffee4me

That's a good point I'm glad my son is built for football because I hate watching baseball .., boring . No offense Ikaika I know you like it  

I think the years he was in martial arts where they allowed head kicks at the competitive level are equally as dangerous as football. 

Football is Hard on the body, the ankles and knees are starting to take a beating.


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## Ikaika

coffee4me said:


> That's a good point I'm glad my son is built for football because I hate watching baseball .., boring . No offense Ikaika I know you like it
> 
> I think the years he was in martial arts where they allowed head kicks at the competitive level are equally as dangerous as football.
> 
> Football is Hard on the body, the ankles and knees are starting to take a beating.



Good to hear about your sons experiences. My son also plays basketball. He is built more like your typical wide receiver one season and point guard the next. Basketball is a contact sport, while football is a collision sport, I get the risk. Rather than me tell him what he shouldn't do, I would prefer to prepare him for what he wants to do. The reason I'm working him hard in the off-season.


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## coffee4me

My son is working hard in the off season too. Typically works out 8-9 times a week. Think he's trying to go from Mack truck to brick wall . Lol


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## Ikaika

coffee4me said:


> My son is working hard in the off season too. Typically works out 8-9 times a week. Think he's trying to go from Mack truck to brick wall . Lol



Told my son, football (at least the position he plays), starts from the waist down. Along with working him out on field drills, I have almost got his squats to double his body weight. I won't let him try out till he actually can squat double his body weight. If his 54 year old man can do it, so can he.


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## coffee4me

I think how much you weight might be a factor in being able to double your body weight in squats . 

My son can squat like 400 lbs still not double his weight. Yikes! 

The playing definitely gets harder thou. The first two years were a breeze as far as injuries go. Lots of bruises but not a lot of injuries. 

Last year was tough. Both ankles to the point where he would play till he literally could stand up anymore. As soon as the ankles healed up some the knee got slammed a little too much until he had water on the knee. Kept playing even thou he limped a lot. Add a minor concussion and his body did take a beating. But boy he loves the game!


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## arbitrator

*Finding it rather interesting that after the just-announced retirement of San Francisco 49er Linebacker Chris Borland, at the ripe old age of 24, because of the NFL statistics revealing the severe long-term concussion statistics. The NFL has just recently had 4 players under the age of 30 to call it quits, much rather than risk having their lives shortened by the sheer violence of the game.

I can only wonder how these "retirement walk-aways" from the NFL is ultimately going to effect future participation on down the football playing food chain ~ from the pros, to the collegiates, to the high schools, all the way down to the pee-wee circuit!.

It's really something to think about!*


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## VermisciousKnid

arbitrator said:


> *Finding it rather interesting that after the just-announced retirement of San Francisco 49er Linebacker Chris Borland, at the ripe old age of 24, because of the NFL statistics revealing the severe long-term concussion statistics. The NFL has just recently had 4 players under the age of 30 to call it quits, much rather than risk having their lives shortened by the sheer violence of the game.
> 
> I can only wonder how these "retirement walk-aways" from the NFL is ultimately going to effect future participation on down the football playing food chain ~ from the pros, to the collegiates, to the high schools, all the way down to the pee-wee circuit!.
> 
> It's really something to think about!*


Borland was the only one who quit because of CTE fears. Jake Locker is a QB who made 12 million during his career and doesn't have a burning desire to play anymore. Patrick Willis keeps getting foot injuries. The other guy is a Jehovah's Witness who is going to do mission work. 

So of the four retirements only one is out of fear unless there is more to the story. 

Head injury protocols are pretty new to football. Is there a system to track concussions over a players lifetime? I doubt it. I think a player has to track them on his own earlier in his career. The NFL obviously has a tracking system. Borland had two concussions in his career, one in college and one in 49ers camp. He was paying attention and obviously didn't want to end up like Mike Webster or Dave Duerson.


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## coffee4me

At the high school level where we are they track the kids. Three concussions while playing football so over 3/4 years and you are out. 

But the hardcore football kids and parents get around that by having the dr. Note read "head injury" not concussion.


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## Ikaika

coffee4me said:


> But the hardcore football kids and parents get around that by having the dr. Note read "head injury" not concussion.



I'm surprised any physician would go along with this sort of diagnosis given what we know about the collective effects and the litigious society we live in. 

Needless to say at this age it really is the responsibility of the parent to advocate for their child's safety and well-being. I weigh this against the understanding that we cannot coddle our children and that there is some value in participation in a competitive team sport. Balance, it is all about balance.


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## coffee4me

arbitrator said:


> I can only wonder how these "retirement walk-aways" from the NFL is ultimately going to effect future participation on down the football playing food chain ~ from the pros, to the collegiates, to the high schools, all the way down to the pee-wee circuit!.
> 
> It's really something to think about![/COLOR][/B]


I think we are already seeing an impact on participation with all the attention to brain injury. Many parents I've come across have told me they won't allow their sons to play football.


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## coffee4me

Ikaika said:


> I'm surprised any physician would go along with this sort of diagnosis given what we know about the collective effects and the litigious society we live in.
> 
> Needless to say at this age it really is the responsibility of the parent to advocate for their child's safety and well-being. I weigh this against the understanding that we cannot coddle our children and that there is some value in participation in a competitive team sport. Balance, it is all about balance.


It's that grey area because its a concussion, if its mild then well it's not something that can be tested for so maybe... It's just a head injury. 

It's not just head injuries but injuries all over they fake it at the doc or water down their pain to get released. I'm sure that behavior is not confined to just football but many sports.


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## Ikaika

coffee4me said:


> I think we are already seeing an impact on participation with all the attention to brain injury. Many parents I've come across have told me they won't allow their sons to play football.



No doubt football has more concussion awareness than any other sport but very few contact sports are immune, basketball, soccer, wrestling and even baseball all come with risk of serious injuries. 

Then we could keep our kids from any participation to promote sedentary behavior leading to obesity, diabetes, early onset heart disease. 

I believe a level of balance and sanity needs to reign. It is the wide swinging pendulum reactions that I fear most.


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## coffee4me

My cousin has sustained long term brain injury from snow boarding. Don't hear parents saying they are not going to let their kids snow board due the head injury risk. It's a bit over the top in my opinion. 

I sat in the pediatrician's office with my son then 16, 5'11 over 200 built like a Mac truck. The other mom had a 7 year old boy. When she heard my son was there for football clearance she started in on the head injury potential, etc. then proceeded to tell me that her son only plays video games . 

I just shook my head.


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## Ikaika

coffee4me said:


> My cousin has sustained long term brain injury from snow boarding. Don't hear parents saying they are not going to let their kids snow board due the head injury risk. It's a bit over the top in my opinion.
> 
> I sat in the pediatrician's office with my son then 16, 5'11 over 200 built like a Mac truck. The other mom had a 7 year old boy. When she heard my son was there for football clearance she started in on the head injury potential, etc. then proceeded to tell me that her son only plays video games .
> 
> I just shook my head.



Well when her son is 5' tall and over 200 lbs with diabetes mellitus 2 then she will be seeing the physician for other issues. 

We are advocates for our kids but that implies not trying to isolate them in bubble wrap. I sustained multiple injuries growing up participating in big wave surfing. My moms only rule, we had to prove to her we could swim 50 non stop lengths of the pool before we could take on the ocean. We need to prepare them and give them the best chance at protection, not isolation. My personal philosophy. 

I coach my son in strength and speed training to get ready for sports, similar rule as my mom.


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## Ikaika

First day conditioning for the next level, youngest son.


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## Ikaika

A month and a half of tough conditioning (training), my son is getting there, looking like a real football player.


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## Ikaika

First controlled scrimmage today. The other team looks bigger, they definitely have more boys but they are not better. 

My son is second string wide out, just blocks down field for runs thus far. Also second string DB (defensive back). On the second play the other team went challenge him. Big mistake. They threw a bubble screen and my son put a big hit on this kid who bigger than him behind the line of scrimmage. You could hear the hit, some people went ooooo. Next plays they ran and passed away from him.


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## Ikaika

Danger of hitting hard... They put him at defensive tackle. He was going up against a kid who out weighed him by 100 lbs. My son held his own. The other kid got called for holding twice because my son was faster off the line.

I told him this is why we squat in the off season.


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## Ikaika

So my son typical plays slot back or wideout on offense and defensive back on the D... However, they want him on the front line, DE or DT starting next week. He won't be a starter, but he will plenty of play time in the trenches (keeping guys fresh). After his three solo tackles today against their first string, he showed his stuff. I told him on the car ride over, "you probably won't start today, but when you get in there, make a difference for the team". He did.


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## EVG39

[ [B*]Just wondering if this is because all the negative press about the NFL and concussions or that there are just more competing sports*?[/[/B]QUOTE]

Yes
Full disclosure. I played. My sons played. that is until my oldest got his second concussion. The effects of which included constant pain, memory and thinking problems, changes in personality, etc. Some of which are still present now even two years later. Absolutely heartbreaking. Now I lay awake at night worrying about his brain injury (and let no one fool you that is what a concussion is) and the long term effects on him. Which a good doctor(like my son's dr who also . serves on the prevention committee set up by the NFL) tells you are unpredictable. Some players can receive multiple traumas without relatively any ill effect and some kids, all it takes is one to render them damaged for life. 
Football did many wonderful things for me and my sons as well. But the price is not worth it. A brain is a fragile thing. I learned too late. But you now know. Protect your son, he's counting on you. No else will.


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