# Ten-year marriage, in trouble. Could use some input. (Kinda Long... sorry)



## PainBelow (Nov 11, 2011)

My wife and I have been together for 10 years. This is my second marriage, and her first, but she was in a relationship before. She has 2 kids by another man. She had kids very young. She got together with her first (common-law) husband when she was only 16. Her life at home with her parents was difficult, so she latched onto the first man who came along and moved in with him to escape her unhappy home life. She had kids with him when she was 19. They were together for several years (never married) before she got tired of him and left. The reasons she cited was because he was physically abusive and controlling. He always interrogated her anytime she left the house. He was smothering her. When she left him, she lived in very poor conditions. She and the boys lived in a travel trailer for some time, and lived in some very bad neighborhoods.

When I met her, she was trying to raise her boys alone. They were 9 and 6 at the time. She was in a bad place. It was a horrible little house in a bad neighborhood and the kids went to a bad school. She was a waitress and making barely enough money to support them. She usually had to put them in day-care for long periods in order to work nights and run errands. When she and I were dating, they would be in day care.

My first marriage had ended about 6 months before we met. It was probably too soon for me, but I had been hurt very badly. My first wife crapped all over me as a way of making me hate her so it would be easier for her to leave. Admittedly, she was too young for me and needed that life of freedom that she never had. Pay attention to that last statement, because it will come back again later.

So because I had been burned, I recovered quickly and was excited to move on to something better. Well, I was pretty sure I had found it. When I met her, I had dated A LOT of people and never found anyone I wanted to be with. When she came along, everything just clicked. So I fell in love with her pretty quick, and she did too. 

About 6 months after we met, we moved in together and I turned their lives completely around. Nice house, nice car, great school, excellent environment for raising the kids. This was the happiest moment of my life, because I was able to rescue them from a terrible existence. In retrospect, I think maybe I pushed her into it. I made her an offer she could not refuse.

Years passed and everything was wonderful for a long time. No complaints from me, and she says she agrees. Of course the kids prospered well too. Our oldest just graduated high school earlier this year with honors. She and I got married in 2005, after about 4 years of living together and raising the boys.

Ok, that's the backstory. Now here is where the trouble begins....

About a year ago, she decided to take a second job. The economy was in the toilet and she needed more money to accomplish her short-term goals (paying off a credit card, etc). She ended up blowing most of the money on useless stuff, or stuff that may have been useful, but wasn't really in line with her original goals.

Her routine was excruciating. She would routinely get up early in the morning, before me, and go to her first job. She would come home before I did, around 4-5pm, and take a nap for a couple of hours, so she would already be sleeping before I got home. I would see her for about 15-20 minutes before she left for the second job. Then she would get home several hours after I went to bed. So I was taking care of everything around the house. I was doing all the chores, feeding our pets, washing clothes, etc. Mr. Mom, to the max. Not very manly, but somebody had to do it. Meanwhile, she was stressing herself out. Not sleeping well. Not eating well. Tired all the time. She was headed for a melt down.

Then she started getting worse about going out of town on the weekends. She liked to visit her girlfriends and family in other cities nearby. She did this for many years throughout the course of our relationship, but never to this degree. So I would barely see her during the week, and then I would not see her at all on the weekends, because she would spend every moment of free time visiting with her family and friends. She would leave on Friday afternoon before I got home from work and wouldn't return until late Sunday night before I was about to go to bed. So then the week would start again, and I would hardly see her. So I have been pretty miserable for about a year now, missing her and wanting to spend time with her. Of course we had our moments. Sometimes she would opt to stay home some weekends and spend time with me and the kids.

The reality was, she was spending this time away (the second job, the weekend trips) as a means of escape. She was trying to escape from her life.

About 4 months ago, she told me that she was unhappy in our relationship. She said she didn't want to be married to anyone. She didn't want the burden and responsibility of being in a relationship with somebody. She also said she was thinking that maybe subconsciously she only got together with me because she knew I would be a good provider for her kids. Hearing this, I was devastated. I died a little inside. Felt like I had been used on the grandest scale. I am sure she loves me, but she isn't in love with me anymore. Maybe she never was. But I know I have been in love with her for years now. For me, the feelings for her grew with time, while hers were fading away.

These were difficult things to hear, but we pressed forward. There was little I could do to change her feelings about everything, so I just went about my life as usual, hoping she could find some answers on her own. She has been seeing both a psychologist and a psychiatrist for maybe 6-8 months now. These sessions are nearly worthless. These people are extremely busy and they end up scheduling her appointments about 3 weeks apart. This is almost worthless, in my mind. She really needs weekly sessions. Its hard because they are expensive so we have to find one that will take our insurance.

The psychiatrist prescribed anti-depressants for her, and in my opinion, they are doing more harm than good. Her sex drive has been very low for a long time. She has told me that if she never had sex again, it would be just fine. Goes without saying that this is something no man wants to hear. When we do have sex, its really just for my benefit. Which makes me feel terrible, and I would rather not do it if its only going to be one-sided. She seems to enjoy it once things get going, but its getting started that she doesn't want to do. She has no motivation. This is a very difficult situation, because we have always been very sexual, and her lack of interest is putting a damper on our relationship.

Late September she finally had a stress melt-down and told me that she felt trapped. She just wanted to run away. She has been saying that for years, but I never understood it. Run away from what? What was so wrong with her life? Everything was perfect, as far as I could tell. That night she took a bunch of Xanax and was thinking of killing herself by taking the whole bottle, because she thought it was the only way out. She wanted to leave me, but she didn't want to hurt me in the process. Since then, her medication has been changed and she no longer has thoughts of suicide, but it was a scary time. I won't bore you with the details, but we got her the help she needed.

She said she had the breakdown for many reasons:

First, our oldest son moved out of the house and into the college dorm. He's been there for a few months now. He has almost abandoned us. He is enjoying a life on his own, having college adventures. So he rarely comes around anymore. This troubles her very much. Our younger son is also very independent. He spends a lot of time in his room, playing games and entertaining himself, and he's not very talkative or social. So she feels detached from both her children. She feels like they don't need her anymore and she feels useless, as if her life has no purpose.

Second, she feels dependent on me. She feels like I am the sole provider, and she feels like she is bringing nothing to the marriage, financially. She feels like the subordinate partner in our relationship. She makes a little money, but the reality is, I pay all of the bills myself. She pays for her car payment and our cell phone bill, but that's about all. She sees that her mom has always been dependent on other men, and she doesn't want to end up like that. She wants to go to nursing school and make something of herself so she does not have to be dependent on someone else.

Third, she says she felt like she has never had any freedom of her own. Since an early age, she moved in with the father of her kids, and ever since then, she has been tied down trying to raise them.

After her meltdown, she moved in with a female friend of hers. That place is a hole in the wall. Very small and ugly house. Very messy. Tiny bathroom, and her room is also very small. There is barely enough room for her mattress, clothes and personal effects. There is no TV and no Internet, except for what she gets on her cell phone. She is very isolated and cut off from the outside world, but she says she loves it. She loves having the time for quiet contemplation. Maybe she is doing some of that, but I think she is also spending a great deal of time with her girlfriends socializing with them.

Meanwhile, her youngest son still lives with me. He couldn't possibly live in that environment, because he would have no room of his own. She still spends time with him, but not that much, since she is trying to get herself sorted out.

Right now, I am miserable. I am still doing all the chores myself and she is gone. Meanwhile, she is enjoying her freedom. She is spending time with her friends and going places on the weekends, unchecked. She is enjoying not having to be accountable to anyone.

She sees that all of this is hurting me, and she feels terrible about it. She has not done anything to intentionally hurt me. She is trying to be as delicate about this as possible. She knows, and freely admits, that I am a good man, and has said that to me many times. So she is trying not to be cruel to me. After she moved out, she was coming over to the house and doing MY laundry, just to help out because she knew I was doing everything without her. She would come over and feed the animals when I wasn't home just trying to help me. So she is being very sweet about this, but its tearing me apart. I just want to spend my life with her. And she seems determined to embark on a new life without me.

She has always had problems communicating with me. Self expression has always been a big problem for her. She has a hard time saying what's on her mind. For example, we were having sex recently and she had this look on her face like she was in pain. I stopped about 2 or 3 different times and asked her if she was OK, and was I hurting her? She said no and we continued, but I could tell something was still wrong. Later she said it actually WAS hurting her. She had some kind of rash and it was getting irritated. So rather than stop, she wanted to please me, so she continued anyway. This all happened just a few weeks ago in another session of pity sex.

She has always had a problem being assertive. She doesn't want to make waves. She would rather go along with whatever is happening and not complain too loudly. She is very passive, to a fault. I am hoping her visits to the psychologist will help some of that.

We also started seeing a marriage counselor, but that was the same thing. We went to 2 sessions and had scheduled a third. Each of them were 3 weeks apart. We decided to cancel the third session because we didn't have confidence in her abilities and the scheduling was terrible.

She has real self esteem problems. She sees herself as ugly and unattractive. Nope. Not even. She's the most beautiful thing I've ever seen, and I tell her that regularly. She just doesn't believe me. Or doesn't want to accept that maybe to SOME people she's attractive. She feels overweight, but she's nothing of the sort.

She feels like a failure at everything. And maybe at some things, she might be right. There are some things she has tried to do on her own, but failed miserably. Here's a great example. One day, she texted me and says "I just bought a new car." It was a 2011 Toyota Corolla. She went by herself and paid sticker price because she was intimidated by the salesmen. But she wanted to do it by herself. This was earlier this year. But I didn't say anything negative about it. I think some of her friends did, because she told me later that they said she made a mistake, that you should always ask for less than the sticker. Well, because of that, her payments are pretty big. So about a month ago, right before her melt-down, I went out and bought a car too. Mine was a 2008 Mustang which looks very sweet, and I paid much less. She feels like she failed. She sees that I was able to go out by myself and buy a car without getting ripped off, and I got a much sweeter ride. Its almost like she is jealous of my success. But I have always maintained that MY success is OUR success. She just doesn't see things the same way. Its almost like she is competing with me. My point was, "Well, you didn't ask me to be there. You wanted to do it by yourself, and I never heard anything about this until you came back with a new car." So when I went and bought my car, of course I did it by myself. She didn't ask me to be there for her purchase, so I didn't think it was necessary for her to be there for mine. Its also important to mentiojn that I make a lot more money than she does. About 3 times more. And she feels like a failure because we both have the same education.

Anyway, I'd appreciate some advice and input. Of course I can see that she needs counseling for just herself, and she's getting it. But its slow and takes a long time between appointments. And I don't think I can convince her to change therapists. She's been with this one for a while, so I don't think she will change at this point. But in any event, she is having a lot of issues, and I know its nothing to do with me. Of course I cannot help the unavoidable feeling that there is something wrong with me, or otherwise why would she feel like she needed to leave. But like I said, there's clearly nothing wrong with me. I'm not smothering and controlling like her ex. I don't interrogate her when she comes home, and I don't get upset when she wants to go spend time with her friends. it would be nice if she would share the details with me, but she doesn't want to. She likes the freedom of not having to "report" to anyone. But she feels guilty when she goes away to spend time with friends, because she knows I just want to spend all my time with her.

One of the big problems I have is my own friends. I don't have very many. My relationships with my friends is pretty poor. So she feels like I am depending on her to be there so I have something to do. She doesn't like that responsiblity. 

I know her life is going to be miserable. She is going to be in a bad place. She is going to be financially poor. She doesn't make enough money to live the kind of lifestyle she wants to live. And she is so nice that I don't think she would ever think of asking for alimony. She would rather just pack up her clothes and hit the road. But this shows how serious she is about this. She would rather live in poverty than be in a relationship with someone.

At this point I am trying not to bother her too much. I'm keeping my distance. I've heard about this 180 method, but I can't find too much about it online. I guess maybe its in a book somewhere? I'm trying to focus on myself as much as I can, but its hard. I see her facebook posts saying all the great things she is doing on the weekends with her friends, and it hurts me terribly to see her enjoying a life without me. From what I have read, the 180 method suggests I should go out and do the same. Don't be predictable. Don't be sitting home doing chores like she thinks I am doing. Trouble is, if I do that, she will actually be HAPPY! She will think the departure will be easier.

I have already told her that if she breaks up with me, things are gonna change. I told her I want her to start paying her own car insurance, and we need to split up the cell phone bill, among other things. So she is going to be really broke. And I told her I am going back to dating again real soon. Its how I was able to cope with my last divorce, so its all I've ever known. I don't think it made her real comfortable to hear that, but its hard to know for sure. She's not very open with her feelings. But I am serious about that. If she closes the door on me, I am going to go back to dating again real quick. To be honest, I am not going to be able to function in a serious relationship for a long time, so I know that all I can really do is have meaningless sex right now. But after feeling so rejected by her, I really need to feel desirable again. I need to feel like I am a good catch.

Ok. Confession time. I actally have started looking around online at these "hookup" sites where you just get together and get laid. I have not been in contact with anyone, but I'm just looking and considering my options. The problem is, I am not enthusiastic about any of this. I would much rather just be with her. But I think its my sense of self-preservation that has made me feel compelled to look at these dating sites. I need to feel desired by a woman. I haven't felt that in a long time and its just something I need in order to make me feel better about myself. I dont know. Maybe I need to stay off there for now.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

PainBelow said:


> When she left him, she lived in very poor conditions. She and the boys lived in a travel trailer for some time, and lived in some very bad neighborhoods.
> 
> It was a horrible little house in a bad neighborhood and the kids went to a bad school.
> 
> ...


So ... you rescued your wife, who was living in a dumpy trailer in a bad neighborhood. Now she is living in a dumpy "hole in the wall" and happy. Sounds like history is repeating itself, doesn't it?

First, I think you might want to consider if she is having an EA or, possibly, a PA. Not only that, but she left her child with you, so she could pursue a life of "quiet contemplation" in what sounds like a flop house.

From what you say, she has grappled with mental problems. Time to decide where to draw boundaries here. You guys need to get into marriage counseling. If she refuses, tell her she can stay in the dump she enjoys living in. Also let her know she can support herself while you pay a visit to an attorney. 

Time to take control of this situation. You gave her a good life, but it appears she doesn't mind living in a slum. I'd seriously check out just who she is partying with besides her gf's.


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## PainBelow (Nov 11, 2011)

Sorry, I'm new here. What is EA and PA?

When she moved out, she was fully prepared to take her youngest son with her, but he actually declined. He actually told her that "He needs me more than you." because I was going to be in pain and she would be happy. And he was right on. If they both left me in this big house alone, I would be very miserable. And he recognized that his life with her would be bad because he would not have his own personal space. And his life with me was already well-structured. He catches the school bus right near our home, so he was already in the routine of living this way. We all recognized that in moving he would have to change everything. So it was really the logical choice, and he made it himself. She did not push for him to come and live with her. But she threw it out there pretty quickly. She knows its her responsibility. Besides, I think we can all agree I am a much better provider for him right now. And she doesn't need the burden of trying to take care of his needs while trying to take care of her own. Yes, I agree that leaving her son behind seems like a crappy thing for a mother to do, but it seems like the best option, all things considered.

As I posted before, we went to marriage counselling, at her behest. It was her idea. She was originally wanting out completely, but then she came to her senses and realized she should not be too hasty, so she proposed a trial separation first. And she proposed the idea of counselling. I readily agreed. She even made the appointment. But before long it started to seem hopeless because this lady did NOT have her stuff together, and she wasn't really helping us that much. So we have made another appointment with a new counselor this Monday. I am hoping for better results. I already learned that with this new MC, we will be able to have weekly appointments, so I'm feeling much better about this new one.

If she ultimately decides to leave for good, then yes, I agree that it will be time to lawyer-up. But until then, I'm giving it my all. I don't quit easily, and I'm not about to give up on something this important. Not yet. She will be the one who gives up, not me. But for now, she is feeling positive about going to counselling. And like I said before, she is being very kind about this. She is not trying to p!ss me off or dump all over me like my first wife did.

And I genuinely believe she is not seeing other people. She would be more than happy to never be with anyone else ever again and die an old maid. If she really wanted an easy-out, it would be much simpler to just tell me "there's someone else" and that would put an end to our relationship real quick.

At this point, I think what she's really doing is something I like to call "social masturbation". She is pleasing herself by the social interaction she gets from other girlfriends. I admit she has been really selfish for the past year, and even moreso the last few months. But she seems agreeable to trying to work it out. For now.

Thanks for your reply and input. Any chance for me to talk about this will help me get some good perspective. As I said in my OP, I dont have a lot of friends, so its hard for me to find people to talk with about this. I am hoping this site is exactly what I need right now. Of course I am thinking about getting my own counselor. But the one I found I am using for our new MC because I think we need that more than anything else right now.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Have you looked into the second life your wife has?
Face it, before she left she was always a way. You sound like a "nice guy" and her second life is tearing her up b/c she maybe behaving in away that is effecting her greatly. I suspect guilt!

Her second "life style" is making her make some bad choices but in her eyes she thinks there worth it. I have a strong feeling someone is influencing her dicisions and this someone is effecting the dynamics of the marriage.

I suggest you quitely look into her second life. Do your own investigation, do not ask her if there is someone else....she will only tell you what you want to hear.

It is my opinion that, do your own research as to why she is making these unhealthy choices, and with this information you may find the real reason for her behavior.

I also feel that this second life she has......has been managed by her with the simple fact that she has labeled you controling and has given her amble oppertunity to find someone else. While all the while she keeps you around for stablity and security. 

Do the covert investigations to find out what really is going on and why the dynamics of your marriage is heading in this crazy direction.


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## PainBelow (Nov 11, 2011)

For about a year she has been working crazy hours at two jobs and she was so tired she could barely function. She wasn't eating right and her sleep was suffering. In June she started talking about seeing a therapist, but I wasn't entirely sure why. I know she has been upset about losing her father about a year ago. And her step-dad the year before that. Then her mom moved away earlier this year. So I thought it was just about that. So I asked her why she felt like going to see a therapist and maybe there was something I could help with.

Here's an email she sent me on June 22.

#####################################

I know that life with me has not been pleasant for quite some time. I have not been happy with a lot of areas of my life and yes, one of them happens to be our marriage. At first I had thought that time would relieve some of the feelings, then when that was not the case, I resorted to drinking more. Drinking was not the answer for any of my problems so I thought medication may be the answer. Well, medication has helped with the crying spells when I am alone but has not reversed any feelings of unhappiness. Then I thought, therapy must be the solution. Honestly, I have doubts that therapy will help me regain feelings that I have lost, but it may help me get past other past issues never resolved.

I have been very afraid of being open with you regarding how I have been feeling. I felt the need to avoid breaking your heart once more. You have been a wonderful presence in my life but more over for the boys. Neither of them would be where they are today if it weren't for the stability you have given, YOU not ME. I have always worked weird hours and or two jobs not really being home. Perhaps that is my way of avoiding my problems, get lost in work or sleep them away. 

I have known that our ideals on marriage are different from one another. I just assumed that a spouse would be there for me emotionally and physically when such situations arise. This last time in the hospital, I became emotionally drained. As you already know and have apologized for not being there at the time of my surgery, I was alone and afraid. And then it started to make sense when you had said that your ex had these expectations on how a marriage should be. When those vows are said "in sickness and in health" those words are included for a reason. Sometimes I feel like you lack the empathy that most women naturally have. What feelings I had left for us before that incident seemed to have disappeared. The texts that I received in the hospital were all from my girlfriends, not men. What I get emotionally from my friendships makes up what I lack emotionally in our marriage. Maybe that is why I enjoy spending time with Dawn, Tracy, Valerie, etc, so I do not feel guilty for spending time with my friends, my support system.

The lack of desire for sex I feel is linked to the loving feelings that have seemed to evaporated. The Celexa that I am taking does effect libido. But, sexual desires seemed to have waned even before I started the medication. You deserve a partner that can reciprocate those physical needs as I have failed in doing so. Do I remain here with you just to try and make you happy or should I seek my own solitary life? Is it better to be right or to be happy?

#####################################

The thing with surgery is that I missed her surgery appointment. I came the day of her surgery cause she was staying in the hospital for a few days. When I got there, she was already taken into the back room and I wasn't even sure where it was located. The nurses couldn't tell me anything. They were clueless. So I messed up and went back to work, and figured I would see her after she got done and they took her back to the room. It was surgery to remove a cyst on one of her ovaries. fairly simple procedure and didn't take long, but she was convinced she was on death's door. Maybe she was. And maybe I screwed up by missing it. I have apologized over and over and begged for forgiveness, but she is not very forgiving about this. It hangs over my head like a dark cloud. This all went down around April of this year.

So the physical stress of working two jobs, and coupled with her other problems, she couldn't take it anymore and had a stress breakdown in late September. She took a bunch of pills and said she wanted to kill herself. The following week, she met with her psychatrist who quickly changed her meds. She was on Celexa and he switched her to Effexor, both of which can make you lose your sex drive. In early October, our marriage counselor suggested quitting the second job, for her own sake, and she did about a week later. I'm so proud of her for quitting. For the first time in about a year, she is sleeping better and eating better, and she said she is happier now because she's able to function better at her day job.


About cheating...

Before she quit that job, she was far too busy to have anything going on the side with somebody else. If she were cheating, it would have been going on while she was working 2 jobs, around the time that the email was sent.

Her weekends were (and are) split up among a couple of different friends. One weekend she would go visit Tracy or Valerie in the next big town that is about 2 hours away. Other weekends she would visit Dawn, in a bigger town, which is about 3.5 hours away. She would make it a point of texting or calling me while she was down there (at either place) and occasionally check in. But I've never asked her to do it.

I have a pretty good radar for cheating, and I'm convinced that nothing going on. I have no reason to suspect anything inappropriate. Granted she is not the kind of person who likes to share the details of her doings when she goes off and has fun, but I know she really lives a pretty mundane life. She's not into clubbing or getting drunk. She might go somewhere and have a couple of glasses of wine, but its mostly all about socializing with friends. 

She thinks she is not good enough for me. She has serious self esteem problems. Her whole life has revolved around raising her boys, and now that they seem to be on auto pilot and don't need mom anymore, she is feeling like she has no purpose and its making her take a hard look at herself and what she's achieved for herself: Not much. She is really not happy with the life she's built for herself. She has been spending most of her life making sure her kids would turn out OK.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Have you considered that she has "switched sides"? She makes comments about women being there for her, not men. 

I had a question about the 2nd job for a year. Was it really truly financially necessary? Was there anyway you could have worked more to make up the difference? That would be very hard, for a whole year, to never see her. Just curious why this went on so long, and you did not look at other alternatives to her working 2 jobs. (of course it casued her to have a breakdown). 
I ask this because you mention she bought a new car, and then you bought a car. So ...just wondering why she was working herself to death. 

You are seperated now, have you discussed filing for divorce? 
Do you want to stay married, or are you going to pursue dating?

It's tough to watch someone you love go over the edge... hopefully she is able to find her place in the end.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

180 might work, but I think you have to admit that you are enabling her. The ball is always in her court- and always has been. If you were really willing to tell her that this is not acceptable, and tell her that she has a month to find a way to support her children, so you can serve her with divorce papers, then she will either move back in or finally come clean about what is going on. Look, there's no way around it - she is incredibly selfish. I've known plenty of people, including myself, who had it so much worse than her. The last thing they need is an enabler.

I'm sorry for the pain this is putting you through. She will change, and want to, if she really loves you, but only if she has no other way to get you to keep supporting her alternate life.

If she moves in, explain the expectations and consequences very clearly. She must learn to find happiness through real therapy, instead of always running away from facing reality.


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## PainBelow (Nov 11, 2011)

Its possible she has switched sides, but I don't think she has fully. I think she has had bi-curious thoughts, but I don't think she's ready for a full-on relationship (sexual, or otherwise) with a woman.

No, the second job was never really financially necessary. I had everything covered. She was always just too proud to ask me for financial support. She didn't like the fact that she was unable to do it herself. So while it was not entirely necessary for her to work the second job, she felt like it was necessary because she didn't want to be dependent on me.

I asked her all the time to quit that second job. She didn't really listen to me. That was a recurring theme for a lot of different issues. She didn't take my advice on a lot of things. I knew the second job was killing her physically and mentally and it was putting a strain on our relationship and I asked her all the time to quit. But she always found reasons to keep it going. Another thing is her inability to say no. She is not assertive enough. The boss of that second job was always putting guilt trips on her and getting her to work when she was really too tired and unable. He pressured her to keep going when it was clear she was having a hard time keeping up the pace. It was easy for him to guilt her. She is easy like that. Just the smallest hint and she is sold. If you read my other posts you'll see other examples where this is true. She has a hard time speaking up for herself and concentrating on her own needs. She has always been one to put the needs of others before her own.

She bought the car earlier this year. I was really uncomfortable about this because I was afraid she was going to put herself into a position where she HAD to keep working the second job because of the new payments. The only reason she got the car at all was because of her own paranoia. She is always paranoid about car troubles. If she hears the smallest noise, she is worried about it. She talked to a friend-of-a-friend who is a mechanic and he told her about all these problems that would be coming up soon with her old car, so that's what pushed her over the edge and made her decide to buy something new.

We've talked briefly about divorce when she had her meltdown, but again, it was her idea to do a trial separation first. I want to stay with her until the end of time. If she pushes me away once-and-for-all, I will have no choice but to go back to dating again. Its not something I look forward to, but I see it will be necessary.

I dont really feel like I have been enabling her. Maybe you can explain why you think so? I have been supporting her and the kids all these years, true. But she doesn't ask for money. She does what she can with her own money. And she hasn't asked for support since she has moved to this new house. She is doing all that on her own.

I really think this alternate lifestyle is just running away from her real problems. I think she loves me, but she is not in-love with me anymore and she feels like I need to be with someone who feels the same way that I do, and will reciprocate those feelings.

I believe that she is just going through some difficult times emotionally. These stressors are coming from a lot of different directions and she is confused and her instinct is to run. If she is going through some emotional and psychological problems, I think the last thing I should do is try to force her hand. Living in that other house is causing her some serious financial troubles. Very soon, within the next couple of months, she is going to be facing some really hard times because of money. She will not be able to maintain this for very long before her bills start to catch up with her. I feel like my best option is to sit back and wait for the water to boil.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

PainBelow said:


> I dont really feel like I have been enabling her. Maybe you can explain why you think so? I have been supporting her and the kids all these years, true. But she doesn't ask for money. She does what she can with her own money. And she hasn't asked for support since she has moved to this new house. She is doing all that on her own.


Long ago, if you had quit supporting her when she moved out, and made her completely responsible for her children and her life, she would not be able to afford her current life choices. Based on her past, she would've realized that it was a fantasy, and asked to move back in under your conditions, or would've chosen another path. Practically, that is enabling her by not requiring her to make the difficult choices.

I'm sorry, I do not mean to make it sound cruel. I grew up in very harsh circumstances, and my sister is exactly like her. She will not really address issues if life offers her an easy way to hide from them. It sounds like your wife, at her core level, really is too good of a person to let her kids suffer, and she feels really guilty. But dealing with her hurt will only come, in my opinion, when she lives in an environment where she knows that you will not allow her not to deal with the issues.

Others may disagree, but I feel like your wife NEEDS tough, firm decisions. She may run, but this game will only end if you put her in a place where she has no choices. You can lay out conditions, like finding a therapist who will set down with the both of you and explain what has been going on, so that the therapist really knows the issues, and set up expectations for your wife along the way.

Her car example is the perfect illustration of her running away. She NEEDS to learn the courage to face decisions like this. Can't you see how empowering this will be to her?

Her life has always been unhappy, in her view, because she is running, and missing the empowerment of facing her issues. To be healthy, she should be able to live with you, since she loves you, but to stand up for what she really wants when issues arise. I think this is what you really want from her, even if she turns out to be a little different than she has been in the past. 

For people who have been brow beat, in a sense, through a really tough early life, it is easy to be so controlled by fear that life becomes a series of running away. You are in a great position to help her, if you take the position of trying to develop courage in her. Through every step, there is a risk of losing her, but this is, for all practical purposes, what is already happening. If you told her that she must make the tough choices, and that you want her to choose you, you can help her to find activities and therapy to open up.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Thanks for replying... I did pick up that when the therapist suggested she quit her job, she did so "immediately", yet you asked her many times to quit and she did not. 

I was just curious as to what that might say about your dynamics with your wife. 

I agree with what Halien has said (excellent advice) and would add that maybe a therapist would be better able to lay this out (she might be more willing to listen).

It still doesn't answer the question as to why she would go against your wishes to the point of having a breakdown to avoid taking your money (a whole lotta resentment there??) but there is always hope that she will listen to the advice, whomever it comes from. It just may not be you that turns her around.


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## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

What do her girlfriends provide that she needs? Are they above or below her in status, wealth, looks? 

I'm afraid you can't save her and that being saved all of the time has removed a lot of her self-respect. It is hard to be an adult and know you didn't get where you are because of your own efforts. 

She reminds me a bit of nice777guy's situation without the cheating. 

As for you and mea.ingress sex, how is that going to make you feel wanted? Seems like a way to lie to yourself to keep from facing your reality. If your coping mechanism is sex, you call it dating but it doesn't sound like that to me, maybe you areln't compmetely healthy either. I imagine your willingness to move on so quickly doesn't endear you to her, either. Plus, you are still married.

Ask yourself if you would take her back if she cheats during this separation. Ask yourself why you hold her in such high regard in general. What has she meant in your life? What has she given to you during your marriage? 

I'm not trying to put her down. I am asking you to examine what does marriage to her, the raising of her children, the saving them, provide you? I wonder if saving her is how you developed self worth, all the way destroying hers. 

You did a wonderful thing. But too much of anything can be detrimental.

I am glad the kids have turned out so well. That is a blessing.

Good luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## southern wife (Jul 22, 2011)

And what happens to her youngest son in all of this? Will he just stay with you, since you can provide for him? (cudos to you, BTW, for raising her kids while she has been living her own selfish life).


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## PainBelow (Nov 11, 2011)

deejov said:


> Thanks for replying... I did pick up that when the therapist suggested she quit her job, she did so "immediately", yet you asked her many times to quit and she did not.
> 
> I was just curious as to what that might say about your dynamics with your wife.


You're absolutely right. I have been begging her for a year to quit, but she wouldn't do it. She was running away from her feelings for me (Or the lack of them.) As far as the dynamics, I don't know what it means. We have to improve our communications a lot. But she has quit now. But not before it did a lot of damage to us.


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## PainBelow (Nov 11, 2011)

Man, what a day.....

THIS MORNING:

When I woke up, I felt like I just wanted to die. When I got to work, I told my boss that I probably wasn't strong enough a person to actually kill myself, but I just wished I could get struck by lightning or some other natural disaster. I just felt terrible. Later that morning, my director came to my desk and wanted to say good morning and I had my head on the desk. He shook my hand and I think I mumbled something unintelligible (I don't even know what i said) and I'm sure it was pretty obvious that something was really wrong with me. (God knows what he thinks now)

Later that morning I had a epiphany. I think my wife might be going through a mid-life crisis and is acting out. She regrets that she never had freedom from her kids and freedom from her previous relationships. If you read some of these anecdotes about people who have had a spouse go through a mid-life crisis, they sound exactly like the kind of behavior that my wife is having.

My wife is having a mid life crisis - Advice please | LifeTwo
“I Love You, But I’m Not In Love With You”: When Your Depressed Partner Says It | Partners in Wellness



THIS AFTERNOON:

We had our first session with the new MC. Overall this one seems better an our last. But it didn't go too well for me.

My wife just reiterated the points she did with the last MC. She feels like she doesn't want to be in a relationship anymore, and doesn't feel the same for me as she once did. She is not sexually attracted to me, and she doesn't want to be in a intimate relationship. She even cried at some point because she doesn't want to hurt me. Hearing all this and seeing this display, the MC almost looked like he felt sorry for me, and he started talking like maybe our relationship was in real trouble. I told him it all sounded pretty ominous, which it did. I wish I could remember exactly what he said, but it didn't bode well for me at all.

I told him that I think maybe she is just going through a nervous breakdown, or a mid-life crisis or something, and that maybe what she is dealing with is kinda like an "emotional illness". The whole time, she has been saying "its not you, its me". This has always been about her. She has said consistently that I'm a good person, a good companion, a good husband and father. So why is she pushing me away?

I told her I wanted to be there in both sickness and in health, and I want to be there to help her thorough this in whatever way she'll allow me. The MC said that he was impressed to hear that from me, and that most of his clients would just cut ties and run. They would throw up their hands and say, "To hell with it. Go do whatever you want." And then happily go their own separate ways. I told him that I don't quit easily. You'll have to pretty much knock me down. But maybe he was trying to give me something to think about in case this doesn't go well.

At the end of our session, it was petty clear that she is the one who needs the most help, so he suggested getting with her alone for the next session and maybe alone with me later. I guess that sounds good.



THIS EVENING:

We went to have dinner after the session. I was amazed she was willing to do go, cause I have not even seen her in about 2 weeks.

I told her I missed her terribly, and she told me that she had been avoiding me because I am in pain whenever she is around. She's right. I hurt when I see her, and I hurt when I don't see her. I just have to get better control over my emotions when she's around.

We talked about seeing each other more often. Maybe a couple of times a week. She suggested we get together this Thursday and Friday night. But I told her I don't want to see her unless SHE wants to see ME. Of course I am ALWAYS happy to see her. But SHE is the one who needs space.. not me.

I just have to take it slow and not rush her. She is willing to see me on a regular basis, but it feels like she is trying to friend-zone me. I think I've decided I will just take whatever I can get for now. Maybe being her friend is exactly what she needs from me right now.


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## PainBelow (Nov 11, 2011)

ClipClop said:


> What do her girlfriends provide that she needs? Are they above or below her in status, wealth, looks?


Overall I think her friends are roughly the same social class and appearance as her.

Dawn: is her best friend who is a long-time wife and mother of several kids that range from ages 2 to 19. As far as their affluence, they live in a tailer. My wife spends most of her time with her.

Valerie: a few years older than her, she has been married for only a few years to a man who has a bunch of kids from a previous marriage. They have a middle class home (bout like mine) from her previous marriage.

Tracy: her hair dresser, is a bit younger than her (early 30's) who lives with her fiancee in a middle-class home. My wife thinks Tracy is cuter than her.

Whitney: The girl she is living with now. She is in her late 20's and has a boyfriend (They are just FWB). She owns the house where my wife is staying from her previous marriage. Its an older house and looks like a tragedy, both inside and out. She also thinks Whitney is cuter than her. 

Nikki: Her friend from work, who along with Whitney, they form a trifecta. Nikki is in her late 20's and has a boyfriend. She rents a modest apartment. I don't know if her and the boyfriend are living together or what. She also considers Nikki to be more attractive than her.

Nikki and Whitney are the girls I worry about most, because they are showing her how to live the single lifestyle with their 20-something boyfriends.




ClipClop said:


> I'm afraid you can't save her and that being saved all of the time has removed a lot of her self-respect. It is hard to be an adult and know you didn't get where you are because of your own efforts.


I know. But what can I do about it?





ClipClop said:


> As for you and mea.ingress sex, how is that going to make you feel wanted? Seems like a way to lie to yourself to keep from facing your reality.


It would make me feel desirable. Right now I feel rejected by her. Its almost like she's saying "Not only do I not want YOU... I don't want ANY other man." This makes me feel like there is something wrong with me, and I need to feel like I am a good catch. I understand how it might seem unconscionable for me to be looking around online at other women, but I really think its a natural instinct of self-preservation to be thinking about his next mate when my wife already has one-foot-out-the-door. 

But look, before we go any further with this, I want to say that I have already decided I will not try to get with anyone else unless she says we are really done. I looked around only because I was worried that this might be over and I need to get the ball rolling again if I should become single real soon.




ClipClop said:


> If your coping mechanism is sex, you call it dating but it doesn't sound like that to me, maybe you aren't completely healthy either.


I'm not healthy! This experience is driving me absolutely crazy. But you have to remember, I didn't choose to be in this situation. She put me here. She is telling me she doesn't want me anymore, and I need to feel wanted. I don't think it warrants me looking for other people while we are married, and I won't. But I looked and didn't like what I see. I'm not too excited about being with other people. She really is everything I need.




ClipClop said:


> I imagine your willingness to move on so quickly doesn't endear you to her, either. Plus, you are still married.


I imagine it was hard for her to hear. But I think its her turn to hear some bad news for a change. if she says we are done, I have to move on. And I know all I'm capable of right now is meaningless sex. It would be impossible for me to function in a relationship right now. No woman would have me. And you have to remember: A man's got to eat. If she closes the door, there is no reason I have to remain celibate.




ClipClop said:


> Ask yourself why you hold her in such high regard in general. What has she meant in your life? What has she given to you during your marriage?


She has made me into a better person. I am better man because of her. She picked up the pieces of my broken heart from my last marriage and put them back together perfectly. She restored my faith in relationships and marriage. She has enriched my life. She is the sunlight that shines on the flowers of my garden. She is everything, and i am nothing with out her. I don't know how to say it any other way. She really is my true love and I have no idea why. She just is.





ClipClop said:


> I'm not trying to put her down. I am asking you to examine what does marriage to her, the raising of her children, the saving them, provide you? I wonder if saving her is how you developed self worth, all the way destroying hers.



You may be right. I hope I have not inadvertantly ruined her life. But if she wants a better life for herself, there's no reason why we can't find it together. Why is it so important to restore the meaning in her life without me?


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

This must be very hard for you, one day at a time.... 

the only comment I wanted to offer is with regards to her sense of "mid life crisis" or other events that she may be going through.

From the perspective of a single parent \ woman...
There was a time in my life when I wanted and needed the "shining knight" to save me. And then there came a time when I scoffed at such an idea. A sense of independence, being more than a mom, or wife. 

The thought of having someone save you.. can be repulsive if you want to stand on your own two feet, even if you don't know how. 

I read that she may want YOU, as a person, probably does care about you, but she certainly does not want you to save her. She doesn't want the knight. She doesn't want you to solve her problems. 

You could be her friend here.. and nothing else. 
_
But if she wants a better life for herself, there's no reason why we can't find it together_

Maybe to her... together means you are not allowing her to be independent. Let her figure out on her own what's wrong or not. 

She doesn't want you to save her.


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## PainBelow (Nov 11, 2011)

Thanks, yes it is very hard. After all I've done for her, and raising another man's children, this is how my faith is rewarded. Its very unfair to be a loyal and devoted husband and father and now the woman I love is saying she doesn't want to be with me anymore.

You know, last night I was actually feeling pretty upbeat and positive. I had this feeling like she just needs time to sort out her issues and I felt like I could wait for her... for a while, anyway. But then I think back over all the things that were done and said, and I get the feeling that our relationship really is doomed.

Last night we were having dinner and were talking about my first wife. She asked me if I hated her. I said no. Not anymore. Now all that remains are the good memories of times we shared and loved. Looking at it now, I think she was looking for the hope that peace and happiness between us could happen even though our relationship would be over. She was looking for a positive sign that I wouldn't hate her for all she's done, or is about to do.

She sees an opportunity to escape and be free. A chance that has never come along before. For the first time in her adult life, she has the chance to be her OWN person. Not just living in my shadow. Yes, I paid for just about everything we own, but its only because I was lucky enough to make good money. I've always said that my success is OUR success. But she just doens't see it the same way, and I guess maybe I can't say I blame her.

Yes, I saved her from a bad existence. I saved her and her children. I moved them into a nice house in a nice environment. But that was it. I'm done saving people. Apparently it was a huge mistake that i have no intention of repeating. I think this means if I ever date someone again, if they are beneath my social class, it means we can never be, no matter how wonderful they may seem.


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