# My husband went to a strip club and told lies to cover it up..



## MLK22

A little back story -- I am (still) madly, crazy, wildly in love with my husband of 5 years He has has always treated me like a queen. He takes really good care of me, and he's really the first man I've every allowed to do that. I have always had an issue with regards to sex though. I mean, it is AMAZING. But it is not as frequent as I would like, which has left me feeling insecure. My experience in past relationships has always been that men are relentless about it - now it feels the tables have turned. --- SO, a business trip came up last week that his office goes on annually. This was to be his first time going due to a recent promotion. It's a group of men, and I assumed while they were there, they'd go out for dinner, drinks - probably hit a bar or two. No big deal. In the morning after said night out, I checked the account - to see how much money he spent. There was a $28.00 charge for a strip club. Without mentioning the charge, I texted him and confronted him. He tells me he "stayed in the room and drank with the other good boys". (Lie #1) Finally having no choice but to come clean, he tells me he pretty much had no choice but to go (laughable). Said they were walking (in negative temps) from bar to bar and stumbled upon it, and the other guys wanted to go in. "What was I supposed to do? Stay outside in the cold alone?" YES. But, okay -- he must've forgotten who I am. I google mapped the distance from the hotel to the strip club. 2 HOUR walk, 15 minute drive. He says "that's wrong". I CALL THE STRIP CLUB, on speaker phone, ask the lovely lady who answers how far they are from the hotel. She says, "About a 15 minute drive." I say, "But you can't walk there from the hotel?" She says, "Oh no." (LIE #2) Husband claims he doesn't ever remember getting into a car. Must've been really drunk, he says. Says they sat in a table in the back, had 2 beers and no direct interaction with the ladies. He can remember all that, but can't remember a 15 min car ride there and back? How am I to know what really happened when he is obviously incapable of telling the truth even when he is directly confronted with evidence? My imagination is running wild. I've heard a lot of those places can offer more than visuals... NOW, I'm left feeling heart broken and confused. He always acted as if he thought so low of married men who did things like this. Do I even know him? I am 40, I have had 3 kids - my body is far from perfect. How am I supposed to ever feel comfortable taking my clothes off with him again? He has now set the bar so I high I can't possible reach it. I've never felt so insecure in my life. What is to happen next year when this trip comes around again? Or other trips? How am I supposed to sit at company parties and chat with the other wives knowing that they have been made fools of - just like me - except they don't know? I am SICK about this. I am obsessing... WHAT REALLY HAPPENED?? I am seeking out input and advice here because the people closest to me are too invested and can't really give unbiased input. I thought of posting this in the women's only section, but I really want the male perspective too. I have male friends, but I kind of feel like their advice comes with their own agenda, and my dad has been gone for 14 years. Help out here.... I can't think straight...


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

If it was just $28 it does seem like just a couple beers.

Was there a rule in place before he went about strip clubs? 

If he just came out and said "me and the guys dropped by a strip club and had a few beers" what would your reaction have been?


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## John Lee

I see two sides to this story:

Side 1 is that he lied to you, which is not ok, and you have every right to feel upset about that. You also have every right not to feel comfortable with him going to strip clubs -- is that something you've ever discussed before? Did you ever tell him that you wouldn't feel good about him going? Has he ever gone before? 

Side 2 is that your reaction to sounds very, very strong. You realize that your husband can see images of young naked women pretty much any time he wants without going to a strip club these days? You realize that he sees young attractive women on the street all the time? Do you expect him to stay in a cave with a bag over his head because you're 40 and feel insecure about the way you look? Do you think you can keep him completely blind to the way different kinds of women's bodies look? 

Remember that for men, a strip club is a fantasy. Yes, to be frank, their bodies are going to be more "perfect" than yours, more perfect than almost any woman a lot of them would have ever slept with in their lives. Believe me, as a man, this does NOT mean he's not attracted to you or that he's going to stop being attracted to you because he saw some stripper with fake breasts and a thin waist. You are his wife, you are the women he (hopefully) loves, you are real to him, you are the woman he had children with, you are the woman who has been there for him, you are the woman he finds beautiful. 40 is not old, imperfect is not the same thing as unattractive.


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## John Lee

Also, as noted above, $28 isn't much to spend at a strip club, so it doesn't sound like anything more was going on. The lie sounds relatively minor, as long as it's not a pattern.


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## SadSamIAm

I have been to a strip bar a handful of times over the past 25 years. Each time it was with someone that wanted to go. A buddy or some work friends. 

To be honest, I really don't like them. Don't get anything out of it. But I have gone.

I didn't tell my wife about these times because it would just cause a fight/disagreement.

Never did anything wrong in any of them. Had a few beers and left.

I am guessing he didn't tell you because he didn't want the fight over nothing. When confronted he shouldn't have lied and just came clean.


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## PBear

Many strip club transactions are "cash only"... At least, they were when I used to go. They didn't bring out the credit card machine to charge for a lap-dance, if you know what I mean...

Having said that... Some people (and couples) are fine with partners going to strip clubs, and others are not. I have no idea what was ever discussed in your relationship, obviously. But your husband obviously didn't feel safe admitting what he'd done to you. The odds you'll ever get the complete truth are minimal at this point. So the question is, what are you going to do about it? And my suggestion is to find a really good marriage counselor, and try to talk things out. And in the meantime, stop asking questions that are just going to result in more lies.

C


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## John Lee

My guess is that the lies also happened because he didn't want to admit that when his buddies suggested it he kind of wanted to go and have fun with his buddies (or at least felt peer pressured to do it), but he didn't want to admit that to you because he didn't think you could handle the idea that he *wanted* to go to a strip club for ANY reason, even if it was just to hang out and be one of the guys.


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## Observer

Work thing, first time with co-workers..I would cut him some slack on this one. If you have no reason not to trust him...trust him. I bet he does not do it again after you went Magnum PI on him, lol.


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## Racer

It sounds like he fears you. Basically, he probably figured how you'd react. He did it, knew you'd be angry. Then the dummy chose to lie and dig that grave deeper. 

It is perfectly fine for you to be angry. He even knew it. Yet sometimes we do things that anger our spouses... Doesn't mean we don't love them to death. Just sort of at the time, you didn't want to look like the pansy you are in front of 'the boys'. So you go with them... and are scared as hell of your wife; which also helps you be a really good boy. $28 bucks is a bar tab. 

He should not have lied. Really he should have admitted it and taken whatever you felt you needed to dish out. I seriously doubt anything really bad happened. But yes, you should be pissed particularly about him trying to cover it up and lying. Make sure he knows that is why he is really in the dog house. Then ask for the full debrief if he's going to have a shot of getting out of that dog house. 

Just be careful on your end that you don't continue to blow it up more and more in your head allowing it to become a major wedge in the relationship. Just sort of watch how he reacting to it and figure out how you want to react.


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## PBear

Observer said:


> Work thing, first time with co-workers..I would cut him some slack on this one. If you have no reason not to trust him...trust him. I bet he does not do it again after you went Magnum PI on him, lol.


First time she's caught him... First time? Who knows...

C


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## MLK22

I totally agree that $28 isn't a lot of money. But as PBear said, I expect that there was cash being spent. My assumption (because all I have at this point are assumptions and guesses) is that he ran out of cash, and still had a bar tab to pay -- otherwise - why on EARTH would he make the mistake of using his card? 

Yes, strip clubs had been discussed prior to this. It as merely in passing, as the subject came up in movies, tv or stories of other guys we know. I expressed my opinion, which is this -- married men have no business in them - UNLESS, it is something their wives are comfortable with -- which I am not. Also, men who have daughters of a similar age (he does) should have some perspective -- as parents we always see our children as kids, don't we? And, historically, he has expressed that he viewed it the same way. He acted as if he had no interest in going, didn't think much of married men who snuck around and did, and that those girls reminded him too much of his daughter to ever be able to look at them that way. Clearly a misrepresentation of the truth. It makes me feel as though maybe I don't know him at all.

Of course I realize that he can see young, beautiful women anywhere. And naked women with great bodies on tv and in movies. To me, it is not the same as a REAL LIVE person, or people, as it were. I feel like it is flirting with temptation. Pushing back the boundaries. When I married this man I made a promise that he would be the last man I'd see naked in the flesh. Fantasies, I get. But I feel like marriage vows mean you SHARE that part of you with your spouse. When you start shutting your spouse out, you are venturing outside of your marriage. Also, because of the lies, I have no idea what REALLY happened. And my imagination has played AWFUL scenarios in my brain.


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## MLK22

I have to say that I know for sure this is the first time since we've been together. Not because I'm at all naive, but because he is a codependent somebody and does not like to go anywhere without me. I have tried to get him to, so he can have a sense of self outside of me - but he says he is just not happy when he's not by my side. Ironically, he texted me almost nonstop the whole time he was on this trip. Even from the strip club. But really, the fact that this is the first time, in some ways, makes me more worried. Because, as I said, it is the first time he's really done anything AWAY from me. So is his previous good behavior simply a lack of opportunity?


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## PBear

Keep in mind that unless your wedding vows were much different than mine, there was nothing in there that covered "I won't look at naked people, in person or otherwise". So you may have expectations that weren't the same as his. 

Have you talked about how his lieing about all this is making things much much worse for both of you? Have you asked him he's been lieing to you about all of this? And as I mentioned before, have you talked about counseling to get this out in an environment which may encourage a healthy sharing?

C


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## richardsharpe

Good evening MLK22
While its hard to know what really happened, here is my take on it:

He is out with coworkers and someone suggests going to a strip club. Several others say "sure". Your husband wants to be "one of the guys", and is too socially insecure to just say "no". Maybe he fears he will be kidded about being "controlled" by his wife. 

So he goes to the club, buys some drinks, watches some girls shake their whatsits. Could be more, but not particular reason to think there is. My impression is that most strip clubs are just that. 

Then he is concerned about how you would react and lies. Then lies to cover up the lies.


Now you can go two ways on this: 

You can make him feel terrible for going. Terrible - and resentful. Make him feel controlled, and maybe feel like demonstrating that he isn't a pvsy-whipped wimp. Next time this sort of situation happens, he may feel he needs to do it again just to show that he is in control.

OR: 

You can tell him that any time he wants to see naked women, he doesn't have to pay 28 bucks, you are here, and very willing. Next time his buddies ask him to come along, he can say "nah, I've got a hot wife at home, I'm going to get some sleep". (that's what I'd say if coworkers ever invited me to a strip club).


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## PBear

So your husband has emotional issues. How bad are they? Has he been working on them?

Imagine this scenario, then. He's co-dependent. He's used to not going out anywhere on his own. He just got a promotion, and is possibly feeling insecure about it and himself.

Goes on a trip. Co-workers and possibly higher-ups are along. They want to go to a strip club. It's going to be very difficult for him to say "no", isn't it? So he figures he can go, and not get caught. Goes into "conflict avoidance" mode when he does, which involves a cascading mess of lies.

Again, you guys need help to dig out of this...

C


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## MLK22

We have not talked about counseling. I know he would do it if I insisted. And I really don't know how to get through this if we don't. I have mental road block where counseling is concerned and I'm not sure why. The idea of it irritates me. Probably fear of having that mirror held up, lol. 

If I'm being really honest, I've been having some body image issues lately - even prior to this. Having children left me with a mess of stretch marks on my belly, and over the past year I've put on some weight. So I was predisposed to feeling insecure. Add that to my pre-existing insecurities with the fact that he doesn't chase me around the room like a rabid dog the men in past relationships have, and this situation is a recipe for self destruction on my part. I am so very attracted to him - more than I ever have been to any man, EVER. And our sex life is not as active as I'd like it to be. And he knows that, we've discussed it many times. He works in construction, very hard physical labor, and he says that is a factor for him. HOWEVER, in the first 2, 2 1/2 years of our marriage, I discovered porn sites in our search history 3 separate times. Times when I was home, ready, and MORE than willing. And he clearly chose videos over me. So there was already a standing issue with my feeling like maybe he didn't desire me they way he should.


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## ConanHub

SadSamIAm said:


> I have been to a strip bar a handful of times over the past 25 years. Each time it was with someone that wanted to go. A buddy or some work friends.
> 
> To be honest, I really don't like them. Don't get anything out of it. But I have gone.
> 
> I didn't tell my wife about these times because it would just cause a fight/disagreement.
> 
> Never did anything wrong in any of them. Had a few beers and left.
> 
> I am guessing he didn't tell you because he didn't want the fight over nothing. When confronted he shouldn't have lied and just came clean.


Your boundary crossing and lying about it is not healthy for your marriage nor is OPs Hs behavior.

Lila has brought up great points. Obviously lying about anything to your SO is a relationship killer but what about strip clubs? Is he ok with you going out with the girls to watch a guy wave his junk in your face?

If he doesn't get the message that this was a violation of your trust and a crossed boundary then maybe you need to go to a male strip club and get some racy pictures. Then sit down with him and look at the pictures together asking him if this is really the type of relationship he wants?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blondilocks

"How am I supposed to sit at company parties and chat with the other wives knowing that they have been made fools of - just like me - except they don't know? "

This is how: "So, ladies, what's the deal with our husbands going on these company trips and hitting up strip joints. Is this a company requirement?".

Explain to your husband that as much as being married to a horndog embarrasses you, it actually pains you to be married to a liar. Oh, and you and your girlfriends are hitting up the first Chippendale Review you can find and compare notes on all the assets.

Gotta fight fire with fire, girl.


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## PBear

And how is your sex life? Per week? Do you initiate? How was your sex life before you got married (with him)? How is his health?

C


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## ConanHub

Blondilocks said:


> "How am I supposed to sit at company parties and chat with the other wives knowing that they have been made fools of - just like me - except they don't know? "
> 
> This is how: "So, ladies, what's the deal with our husbands going on these company trips and hitting up strip joints. Is this a company requirement?".
> 
> Explain to your husband that as much as being married to a horndog embarrasses you, it actually pains you to be married to a liar. Oh, and you and your girlfriends are hitting up the first Chippendale Review you can find and compare notes on all the assets.
> 
> Gotta fight fire with fire, girl.


LOVE THIS!!&#55357;&#56833;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MLK22

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening MLK22
> While its hard to know what really happened, here is my take on it:
> 
> He is out with coworkers and someone suggests going to a strip club. Several others say "sure". Your husband wants to be "one of the guys", and is too socially insecure to just say "no". Maybe he fears he will be kidded about being "controlled" by his wife.
> 
> So he goes to the club, buys some drinks, watches some girls shake their whatsits. Could be more, but not particular reason to think there is. My impression is that most strip clubs are just that.
> 
> Then he is concerned about how you would react and lies. Then lies to cover up the lies.
> 
> 
> Now you can go two ways on this:
> 
> You can make him feel terrible for going. Terrible - and resentful. Make him feel controlled, and maybe feel like demonstrating that he isn't a pvsy-whipped wimp. Next time this sort of situation happens, he may feel he needs to do it again just to show that he is in control.
> 
> OR:
> 
> You can tell him that any time he wants to see naked women, he doesn't have to pay 28 bucks, you are here, and very willing. Next time his buddies ask him to come along, he can say "nah, I've got a hot wife at home, I'm going to get some sleep". (that's what I'd say if coworkers ever invited me to a strip club).


That's funny, my sister, who obviously has my back on this, did say, "What was he supposed to say, though? 'I can't go because my balls are back home in wife's purse."

As far as offering him free nudity - he knows already. I've never pulled out the stops, the boundaries - in any relationship like I have in this one. I'm so in love with this man, and I've never known anyone who I felt DESERVED EVERYTHING, anything until I met him. Well, until now. Point is, I go way out of my to keep it spicy. That's why I feel like maybe he just doesn't want ME.


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## MLK22

PBear -

Sex -- about once a week, on the weekend. Sometimes twice on the weekend. Rarely during the week at all. I initiate. He blows it off. Never out right says no, but avoids, or flat out ignores my comments. Then act like he doesn't know why I'm mad at him. After ignoring me or avoiding me, I will flat out say, "So I guess we're not having sex tonight", angrily turn over and go to sleep. He knows. 

I try to dress it up (if you know what I mean), add a little perfume, come to bed with lipstick on... prance around the room nearly naked -- nothing. TOUCH him... he just chuckles and keeps watching tv.


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## norajane

MLK22 said:


> We have not talked about counseling. I know he would do it if I insisted. And I really don't know how to get through this if we don't. I have mental road block where counseling is concerned and I'm not sure why. The idea of it irritates me. Probably fear of having that mirror held up, lol.
> 
> If I'm being really honest, I've been having some body image issues lately - even prior to this. Having children left me with a mess of stretch marks on my belly, and over the past year I've put on some weight. So I was predisposed to feeling insecure. Add that to my pre-existing insecurities with the fact that he doesn't chase me around the room like a rabid dog the men in past relationships have, and this situation is a recipe for self destruction on my part. I am so very attracted to him - more than I ever have been to any man, EVER. And our sex life is not as active as I'd like it to be. And he knows that, we've discussed it many times. He works in construction, very hard physical labor, and he says that is a factor for him. HOWEVER, in the first 2, 2 1/2 years of our marriage, I discovered porn sites in our search history 3 separate times. Times when I was home, ready, and MORE than willing. And he clearly chose videos over me. So there was already a standing issue with my feeling like maybe he didn't desire me they way he should.


Go find a good marriage counselor. You have more issues brewing between you than going to a strip club and lying about it.

Think of it as marriage maintenance. If you already have insecurities and sexual issues, they won't magically clear up by themselves and are likely to get worse. If your car is leaking oil, would you ignore it hoping it will stop or will you take it to a mechanic to see what's going on?


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## D.H Mosquito

I must say i follow your sisters stance, it was wrong he lied but look at your reaction do you honestly think he felt he could raise the issue with you? i certainly dont, i worked as club doorman in these places and witnessed many a time reluctant visitors on works nights out with senior colleagues or clients, at best it's erotic dancing and strictly no touching most guys are just standing drinking and certainly infidelity is not on offer with the beers, keep blowing it out of proportion and risk him seeing you as a bunny boiler who is a control freak with paranoid psycho anger issues and you could make marriage worse and push him away and lose your intimacy but hey it's your call,


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## PBear

MLK22 said:


> PBear -
> 
> Sex -- about once a week, on the weekend. Sometimes twice on the weekend. Rarely during the week at all. I initiate. He blows it off. Never out right says no, but avoids, or flat out ignores my comments. Then act like he doesn't know why I'm mad at him. After ignoring me or avoiding me, I will flat out say, "So I guess we're not having sex tonight", angrily turn over and go to sleep. He knows.
> 
> I try to dress it up (if you know what I mean), add a little perfume, come to bed with lipstick on... prance around the room nearly naked -- nothing. TOUCH him... he just chuckles and keeps watching tv.


And has it always been like that? Is he about the same age as you?

C


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## MLK22

ConanHub said:


> Your boundary crossing and lying about it is not healthy for your marriage nor is OPs Hs behavior.
> 
> Lila has brought up great points. Obviously lying about anything to your SO is a relationship killer but what about strip clubs? Is he ok with you going out with the girls to watch a guy wave his junk in your face?
> 
> If he doesn't get the message that this was a violation of your trust and a crossed boundary then maybe you need to go to a male strip club and get some racy pictures. Then sit down with him and look at the pictures together asking him if this is really the type of relationship he wants?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So on point here. No, in fact, he is not AT ALL okay with that. In fact, I teased him that I was going to go out partying with the girls while he was gone and he said, "Well then I'm not going". I had no plans to do so, but I might've have made them had it not been for the the fact that I did not want him to be worrying about ME instead of enjoying his time AWAY from me.

He does say that he gets it. That he was wrong on all levels, and that he is sorry. But of course he's sorry, he got caught.


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## Blondilocks

Obviously, if he feels it's okay to lie to you, he doesn't deserve your everything. Make him work for it.

It's better for a man's balls to be in his wife's purse than in another guy's pocket.


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## ConanHub

As for the P whipped comments and balls in the purse remarks.

If any acquaintance of mine suggested I was a pvssy for not going to a strip club and violating my marriage, I would promptly bring out the gloves and tell them to say that after 3 rounds.

I would also tell them if they had real balls, they would talk like that in front of their wives and children.

Are they men or middle school boys?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blondilocks

Are they men or middle school boys?"

Amen!


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## ConanHub

Mr Useless said:


> I must say i follow your sisters stance, it was wrong he lied but look at your reaction do you honestly think he felt he could raise the issue with you? i certainly dont, i worked as club doorman in these places and witnessed many a time reluctant visitors on works nights out with senior colleagues or clients, at best it's erotic dancing and strictly no touching most guys are just standing drinking and certainly infidelity is not on offer with the beers, keep blowing it out of proportion and risk him seeing you as a bunny boiler who is a control freak with paranoid psycho anger issues and you could make marriage worse and push him away and lose your intimacy but hey it's your call,


This advice is "useless". &#55357;&#56841;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MLK22

Mr Useless,

Unfortunately, what is good for the geese is not good for the gander in my household. I highly doubt he's going to see me as a "bunny boiler" since he would have totally lost his mind had I done this. In fact, I've suggested that maybe, to help me get past this, I will go out to a club with my girlfriends. This, according to him, is not an option.

PBear, I don't know how frank I am permitted to be on these boards, so I may violate some rule or offend someone with what I'm about to say. I hope not, that is not my intent. 

Sex has been amazing since the very first time. In the beginning, neither one of us could get enough. We were barely sleeping at night, waking up randomly and doing it all over again. As it tends to do, that died down some, which is normal I suppose. But then we had an incident. He fell asleep while.... well, I was taking care of him. ASLEEP. Like..... what??? Now, there was alcohol involved, but still... I mean, I only knew because I heard him snore. That really planted a seed for me. (OMG no pun intended) Anyway, it has just gradually decreased over time. I suppose for some people once a week is normal, but as I said -- I just can't get enough of him. I feel like the dude in this scenario, LOL.


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## PBear

There's lots of things that "he could have done". But he didn't. And then he didn't tell the truth about it. So the question now is, what do they do next?

C


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## D.H Mosquito

Lila said:


> Your husband could have simply said, "I'm done for the night guys. You all have a great time but I'm going to head back to the hotel..............{whistle} TA-XI!" No harm, no foul.


An old expression in my parts but i think it works well in this situation, the drinks in the wits out, it's always easy to make the "right" decision when sober but harder with a few beers and colleagues and clients pushing you, but hey ho lets never forgive him and throw it in his face all the time, it was a poor judgement not an affair or blowing life savings at the casino so perhaps time to let it go and as it bothers you then he must know not to visit another place like this when on business trips or lads nights out


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## MLK22

Blondilocks said:


> Obviously, if he feels it's okay to lie to you, he doesn't deserve your everything. Make him work for it.
> 
> It's better for a man's balls to be in his wife's purse than in another guy's pocket.


LOVE. And here's what I think -- a REAL man doesn't worry about what the other boys will think. A real man has the back bone to say "Have you seen my wife? I'm good."


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## MLK22

He actually did say to me "What I supposed to do? Refuse to go in and look like a d*ck to them?" To which I said, "Clearly the better option was to go on in and look like a **** to your wife. :smthumbup: PRIORITIES


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## SimplyAmorous

MLK22 said:


> As far as offering him free nudity - he knows already. I've never pulled out the stops, the boundaries - in any relationship like I have in this one.* I'm so in love with this man, and I've never known anyone who I felt DESERVED EVERYTHING, anything until I met him.* Well, until now. Point is, I go way out of my to keep it spicy. That's why I feel like maybe he just doesn't want ME.


From what you have said about your H, he sounds like a great guy, attached to you at the hip, gives you loads of attention, and doesn't want to let anyone down.. he could have been conflicted on going with the boys.. but a new promotion and all, wanting to fit in....it would make some sense...

I ask... OUTSIDE of this LIE.. beings you are so in love with him.. I am assuming he treats you like Gold...you feel it every day...he's the best thing that's ever happened to you.

So please hold on to that..

Not all strip clubs are created equal either.. you did your research on where the hotel was & all, how about on the reputation of this club.. is it a dive , shady things going on, or more into following strict rules, Bouncers, air dancing, no touching..or the man will be thrown out on his ear?

I ask because myself & H went together , with friends (after I went & seen the chippendales) to a higher class club ...about 9 times a few yrs back.... we had a good time (we were in our 40's).. it's something he has never experienced in all his years.. so I was game...

We did talk about all of this before hand..and afterwards.. to how he felt , if he wanted to go back...how I felt about it.... very open , deep talks...... 

I'm really surprised he takes such a hard stance with your going out with the girls on this.. seems that would be a way to make it even....for what it is worth.. he sounds remorseful to me.. 

Although I may not have a problem with my H going to a strip club once in a blue moon with the guys -if this sort of thing came up... I would blow my top learning he LIED about anything.. so in this....I feel for you... 

Just understand...our reactions to things often keep our partners from coming with the full truth.. Conanhub is a very ALPHA dude, noone tells him what to do, he'd knock you down..... your H doesn't sound like this sort of man, in this way he's probably more like my Husband , more on the passive side, a pleaser... not that he wouldn't put his foot down with the boys.. but people make mistakes.

I hope you both can work it out..sounds you have a really good thing going -till you hit this bump.


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## D.H Mosquito

MLKK22 wrote
Mr Useless,

Unfortunately, what is good for the geese is not good for the gander in my household. I highly doubt he's going to see me as a "bunny boiler" since he would have totally lost his mind had I done this. In fact, I've suggested that maybe, to help me get past this, I will go out to a club with my girlfriends. This, according to him, is not an option.
Then he is completely out of order, he cant expect you to just shrug your shoulders and say oh that's nice dear glad you enjoyed it, if you went on a Chippendale type ladies night then he should have no qualms about you doing so as it's just the same but different gender, i personally don't like strip clubs etc some of the would be customers were a definite cause of concern and i can see why your upset if he never sets foot in another he has dodged a bullet in my book nice people dont see the nasty underbelly of the city at night until something bad happens to them,


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## John Lee

MLK22 said:


> LOVE. And here's what I think -- a REAL man doesn't worry about what the other boys will think. A real man has the back bone to say "Have you seen my wife? I'm good."


So are you saying your husband isn't a "real man"? Is that based on this incident alone, or do you have other reasons to say that? Conan's answers are very nice and perfect and crowdpleasing, but "real men" also screw up sometimes. I've never actually in real life seen a man threaten to box because he didn't want to go along with the boys. I've certainly plenty of times bowed out of activities so I could go home to my wife, and a few times I've stayed out too late too (never went to a strip club, fwiw, not my thing, but that's not the point). 

Honestly your relationship sounds like you keep each other very close, and that's ok, some people like it that way, and it sounds like both of you like it that way. But it seems like you are really letting your imagination run wild over this single incident, and that a lot of that is either your insecurity or deeper issues in your marriage for which this was just the trigger (or both). I would guess that both of you have a very high need for security in the relationship, for whatever reason.

The best you can do is talk to him about this and stop ruminating about what it means or what he SHOULD have done or what the mythical "real man" would do. He obviously didn't do whatever you think he should have done, but it's in the context of your marriage as a whole. Try to tell him how this made you feel, why it hurt you, rather than focusing on why he's a bad boy or not a real man. Try also to think about whether you are open to him being honest with you, because it sounds like he didn't feel like he could just come out and say "I did this, I'm sorry," because he was afraid of how you would react.

The notion that he's going to stop being interested in you because of a single strip club trip is LUDICROUS, and it's probably just as ludicrous that the mere fact that he went to one strip club, once, is a sign of his waning interest in you. If there are other problems in your marriage as well, discuss those with him, and get off the strip club thing.


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## ConanHub

BTW. SA has a thoughtful response. I am not saying this is insurmountable but boundaries need enforced and practiced or they are worthless.

It also does not hurt to learn to be more of an alpha a-hole when needed. Like in this situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

John Lee said:


> So are you saying your husband isn't a "real man"? Is that based on this incident alone, or do you have other reasons to say that? Conan's answers are very nice and perfect and crowdpleasing, but "real men" also screw up sometimes. I've never actually in real life seen a man threaten to box because he didn't want to go along with the boys. I've certainly plenty of times bowed out of activities so I could go home to my wife, and a few times I've stayed out too late too (never went to a strip club, fwiw, not my thing, but that's not the point).
> 
> Honestly your relationship sounds like you keep each other very close, and that's ok, some people like it that way, and it sounds like both of you like it that way. But it seems like you are really letting your imagination run wild over this single incident, and that a lot of that is either your insecurity or deeper issues in your marriage for which this was just the trigger (or both). I would guess that both of you have a very high need for security in the relationship, for whatever reason.
> 
> The best you can do is talk to him about this and stop ruminating about what it means or what he SHOULD have done or what the mythical "real man" would do. He obviously didn't do whatever you think he should have done, but it's in the context of your marriage as a whole. Try to tell him how this made you feel, why it hurt you, rather than focusing on why he's a bad boy or not a real man. Try also to think about whether you are open to him being honest with you, because it sounds like he didn't feel like he could just come out and say "I did this, I'm sorry," because he was afraid of how you would react.
> 
> The notion that he's going to stop being interested in you because of a single strip club trip is LUDICROUS, and it's probably just as ludicrous that the mere fact that he went to one strip club, once, is a sign of his waning interest in you. If there are other problems in your marriage as well, discuss those with him, and get off the strip club thing.


Then you have not met me. I take a stand. Men need to learn to come hard against what threatens their families.

I am not a crowd pleaser. I have taken on dozens of men, some willing to be violent, over their porn use at the workplace.

I won because it was right. Some people actually have convictions. Men need to develop convictions about keeping their families secure. I have seen way too many families suffer and/or go down because a man was to weak to enforce his own boundaries.

I know people are weak but they don't need to stay that way. I made some mistakes in the past, learned from them and changed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## norajane

SimplyAmorous said:


> From what you have said about your H, he sounds like a great guy, attached to you at the hip, gives you loads of attention, and doesn't want to let anyone down.. he could have been conflicted on going with the boys.. but a new promotion and all, wanting to fit in....it would make some sense...
> 
> I ask... OUTSIDE of this LIE.. beings you are so in love with him.. I am assuming he treats you like Gold...you feel it every day...he's the best thing that's ever happened to you.
> 
> So please hold on to that..


I agree with you, SA, except that he doesn't seem all that enthusiastic about sex with her. She wants much more than once a week which is all he wants. 

And she's already feeling insecure about her body (stretch marks). He might not be treating her quite like gold, and this strip club thing is piling on top of her insecurities about her attractiveness to her husband. Add the lying, and now she doesn't know what to think.

That's why I think MC might be a good idea. This isn't just about the strip club - it's more like this turned on a spotlight which highlights the cracks in their house.


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## Blondilocks

One has to be old enough to drink. Maybe one needs to provide proof of maturity to enter a strip club. Anyone who lies about going in is obviously too young. If you did it, own it!


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## ConanHub

Blondilocks said:


> One has to be old enough to drink. Maybe one needs to provide proof of maturity to enter a strip club. Anyone who lies about going in is obviously too young. If you did it, own it!


No doubt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous

norajane said:


> I agree with you, SA, except that he doesn't seem all that enthusiastic about sex with her. * She wants much more than once a week which is all he wants. *


 I must have missed this part...or over looked it or something ..not sure why.. .I can surely see why a women would feel like this.. it's hard to not take this personally...we're very sensitive to our husband's desire.. 

One has to wonder if he's off masturbating, or stressed at work, some ED...these things can REALLY play on a woman's mind... NO doubt.



> *That's why I think MC might be a good idea. This isn't just about the strip club - it's more like this turned on a spotlight which highlights the cracks in their house*.


 You are right..



> *ConanHub said* :*It also does not hurt to learn to be more of an alpha a-hole when needed. Like in this situation*.


Very true.. it's not easy for Nice men to be Alpha A-holes, believe me.. I am far more of a B than my H is an azzhole.. he has been told to grow a pair at work-not in relation to me but not being the sti* stirrer some of the other guys are.. the funny thing about him is .. he just lets them go on.. if that's what they want to think.. have at it....he could care less... 

He would take a stand for the family.. but he wouldn't come off an A-hole for it, more puzzy whipped. I guess either way, shouldn't really matter... it's integrity ...after all.


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## ConanHub

You two are a good team SA.&#55357;&#56842;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PBear

MLK22 said:


> We have not talked about counseling. I know he would do it if I insisted. And I really don't know how to get through this if we don't. I have mental road block where counseling is concerned and I'm not sure why. The idea of it irritates me. Probably fear of having that mirror held up, lol.
> 
> If I'm being really honest, I've been having some body image issues lately - even prior to this. Having children left me with a mess of stretch marks on my belly, and over the past year I've put on some weight. So I was predisposed to feeling insecure. Add that to my pre-existing insecurities with the fact that he doesn't chase me around the room like a rabid dog the men in past relationships have, and this situation is a recipe for self destruction on my part. I am so very attracted to him - more than I ever have been to any man, EVER. And our sex life is not as active as I'd like it to be. And he knows that, we've discussed it many times. He works in construction, very hard physical labor, and he says that is a factor for him. HOWEVER, in the first 2, 2 1/2 years of our marriage, I discovered porn sites in our search history 3 separate times. Times when I was home, ready, and MORE than willing. And he clearly chose videos over me. So there was already a standing issue with my feeling like maybe he didn't desire me they way he should.


So try to explain why YOU are hesitating on requesting counselling?

C


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## DoF

OP, please accept and realize that your body is priceless in not comparable to other women in your husbands view.

he loves you just the way you are. 

DO NOT compare it to other women, the value of their bodies to him - 0.Value of your body = priceless

Show me your "perfect women" and put my wife next to her (mind you we are talking 4kids and plenty of damage from that) and I will pick my wife each and every time.

Heck, if anything, the imperfections actually appeal to me even more. I call them the battle scars. I find it sexy as hell that she put her body on the line for the kids/family. 

NO BODY WILL EVER COMPARE EITHER.


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## norajane

DoF said:


> OP, please accept and realize that your body is priceless in not comparable to other women in your husbands view.
> 
> he loves you just the way you are.
> 
> DO NOT compare it to other women, the value of their bodies to him - 0.Value of your body = priceless
> 
> Show me your "perfect women" and put my wife next to her (mind you we are talking 4kids and plenty of damage from that) and I will pick my wife each and every time.
> 
> Heck, if anything, the imperfections actually appeal to me even more. I call them the battle scars. I find it sexy as hell that she put her body on the line for the kids/family.
> 
> NO BODY WILL EVER COMPARE EITHER.


That's a lovely sentiment, and is what every wife would want to hear and believe. :smthumbup:

It becomes difficult to believe it, though, when your H is masturbating to porn bodies and going to strip clubs to enjoy looking at much-closer-to-perfect stripper bodies, and all the while is putting you off when you initiate sex with him.


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## ConanHub

norajane said:


> That's a lovely sentiment, and is what every wife would want to hear and believe. :smthumbup:
> 
> It becomes difficult to believe it, though, when your H is masturbating to porn bodies and going to strip clubs to enjoy looking at much-closer-to-perfect stripper bodies, and all the while is putting you off when you initiate sex with him.


Great posts here! I'm on mobile and can't "like".&#55357;&#56842;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MLK22

John Lee said:


> So are you saying your husband isn't a "real man"? i


That is not what I meant at all. I still think the world of him. When I said a real man would stand up and say no, it was meant in the context of the whole "peer pressure" defense that has come up. I think it is unrealistic to expect that everyone will make the right decisions every time, and of course, he had already been drinking quite a bit prior to the moment of "decision", so to speak, but I think at the age of 40, peer pressure and letting down the boys is a poor excuse. I was referring to the idea of being afraid of not looking like a "real man" to your buddies because you wouldn't go...


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## MLK22

Pbear,

my husband and I are second marriages. I have 3 kids, as does he. Mostly teenagers, one that is 9. We both work full time. He has an amazing work ethic -- getting him to take off or leave early for anything is damn near impossible. Our lives are so busy and chaotic... I can't imagine where I'd fit counseling in.


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## ConanHub

I create peer pressure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MLK22

Honestly, I think if he had come right out and told me, I think it would have at least been a good starting point. He struggles a little with the guys at work. He is mid level management in a blue collar position. You've got the (blue collar) guys below him who have always been equals who he is now in charge of, and the (money bred, college educated) guys above him who he has nothing in common with. He is struggling with that. He is now spending much more time with the higher ups due to his promotion, and feels he doesn't fit in well or interact well with them. These are the guys he went with. I can see he conundrum. If he had been honest with me in the first place and presented it to me in that context - I would likely have still gotten angry. And I would likely be over it by now. But the lies, coupled with the pre-existing insecurities are just crushing me.


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## PBear

MLK22 said:


> Pbear,
> 
> my husband and I are second marriages. I have 3 kids, as does he. Mostly teenagers, one that is 9. We both work full time. He has an amazing work ethic -- getting him to take off or leave early for anything is damn near impossible. Our lives are so busy and chaotic... I can't imagine where I'd fit counseling in.


Don't blow sunshine up my kilt, my dear...  . You said that he would be willing to go, but you have fear of what might be revealed. And now you're making excuses of time constraints. 

So what are you afraid will be revealed in counselling? 

C


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## MLK22

PBear -

Well, both things are true.

I have some (unrelated) buried issues, a lot a pain growing up. I don't like to delve in to those dark murky waters. I like the sediment settled down at the bottom so the rest of the water stays clear, if ya know what I mean. I am always afraid a counselor will poke a stick at old wounds.


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## BronzeTorpedo

Try to stop worrying. There are women on this site whose husbands cheat on them, beat them, or completely ignore them for months or years at a time. Those women have significant problems. In comparison, your problem is insignificant.

Your husband seemed to be in a no-win situation. He could either be honest with you and watch you blow it into a capital offense, or he could be honest with his superiors that his wife dominates him. Either way, he's going to look bad. And peer pressure is real even for adults. I've seen one study that stated that a 30 year-old has about the same capacity for resisting peer pressure that an 18 year-old has. But your husband wasn't even in a group of peers. He was in a group of his superiors. That makes it even harder to resist the group.

In strip clubs, there is no sex going on. Chris Rock wrote a song about it called "No Sex in the Champagne Room."

Take a few days to process your emotions. You should realize that things aren't as serious as you currently think.


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## ButtPunch

Listen to Chris Rock

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9yBPcn8IqU


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## Catherine602

Go to a cognitive therapist. They deal with the dysfunctional thought processes in the present and how to dispel them. They don't believe that living the past over again helps. In fact it hurts. You need to go. There is more going on here than a visit to a strip club. It's the precipitating even. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## richardsharpe

Good evening MLK22
If you think he is still choosing porn over you, then to me THAT is the big issue and I would suggest framing it that way. Its not so much what he did, as what he is not doing - which is providing you with affection, intimacy and sex that you need. 





MLK22 said:


> snip. I am so very attracted to him - more than I ever have been to any man, EVER. And our sex life is not as active as I'd like it to be. And he knows that, we've discussed it many times. He works in construction, very hard physical labor, and he says that is a factor for him. HOWEVER, in the first 2, 2 1/2 years of our marriage, I discovered porn sites in our search history 3 separate times. Times when I was home, ready, and MORE than willing. And he clearly chose videos over me. So there was already a standing issue with my feeling like maybe he didn't desire me they way he should.


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## MLK22

BronzeTorpedo said:


> Try to stop worrying. There are women on this site whose husbands cheat on them, beat them, or completely ignore them for months or years at a time. Those women have significant problems. In comparison, your problem is insignificant.
> 
> Your husband seemed to be in a no-win situation. He could either be honest with you and watch you blow it into a capital offense, or he could be honest with his superiors that his wife dominates him. Either way, he's going to look bad. And peer pressure is real even for adults. I've seen one study that stated that a 30 year-old has about the same capacity for resisting peer pressure that an 18 year-old has. But your husband wasn't even in a group of peers. He was in a group of his superiors. That makes it even harder to resist the group.
> 
> In strip clubs, there is no sex going on. Chris Rock wrote a song about it called "No Sex in the Champagne Room."
> 
> Take a few days to process your emotions. You should realize that things aren't as serious as you currently think.


Of course I realize that there are people who have bigger issues. That certainly does not make my issues "insignificant". Problems start SOMEWHERE, and DISHONESTY is never acceptable. It is not about me "dominating" him. It is a about the stark contrast between who he represented himself to be, and his actions. He, himself, has expressed a dislike for married men who sneak around and go to strip clubs behind their wives backs. Yes, he had reason to fear telling me the truth. He knew I'd be angry. He knew where I stood on this issue. It is his job to hold me up, not tear me down and add to my insecurities -- some of which exist due to his sometime lack of interest in me. As I stated, if he had been honest from the start - I would likely be over this by now. But when you tell lie after lie to cover it up, it makes it very difficult for me to believe it was as innocent and simple as it is being represented. AND - if the tables were turned, I promise you, his reaction would be as strong as mine (minus the tears).


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## MLK22

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening MLK22
> If you think he is still choosing porn over you, then to me THAT is the big issue and I would suggest framing it that way. Its not so much what he did, as what he is not doing - which is providing you with affection, intimacy and sex that you need.


I haven't found anything on our laptop for about 2, 2 1/2 years now. But technology being what it is (cellphones) that really doesn't mean much. It has crossed my mind over the last couple of years that he might be accessing it on his phone, but I have no way of knowing that and I've tried to give him the benefit of the doubt. 

Now, though, after the lies, I'm having trouble with giving him the benefit of the doubt on anything really.


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## richardsharpe

Good evening MLK22
In the end, you can't stop him from watching porn, going to strip clubs, or even hiring prostitutes. You can get mad at him if he does. You can divorce him if you want, but you can't stop him. You can never know that he isn't doing those things, you can only know that you didn't catch him this time.

I think the best strategy is to try to get him to not want to do these things. Try to draw him closer, not risk pushing him away. If you can't do it yourself, then through counseling. If he won't go, or if it doesn't help, then you have to ask yourself if you want to live with a man that you can't trust. 






MLK22 said:


> I haven't found anything on our laptop for about 2, 2 1/2 years now. But technology being what it is (cellphones) that really doesn't mean much. It has crossed my mind over the last couple of years that he might be accessing it on his phone, but I have no way of knowing that and I've tried to give him the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> Now, though, after the lies, I'm having trouble with giving him the benefit of the doubt on anything really.


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## alphaomega

Blondilocks said:


> Obviously, if he feels it's okay to lie to you, he doesn't deserve your everything. Make him work for it.
> 
> It's better for a man's balls to be in his wife's purse than in another guy's pocket.


This! This is why we read those books like MMSLP, and No More Mr nice guy!

It's not ok for either! 

Im pretty sure why he lied. To avoid having to deal with all this crazy!!! Look at this reaction! It's insane! 

He shouldn't have lied. He just dug the hole deeper. Instead, he should have told the truth. And when all the crazy started to happen, finish off with a..

"could you Please shut up and get naked already! I was on a 5 day business trip with a bunch of wannabe college age business guys and I really want to spend time with my wife!"


Case closed.


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## EleGirl

BronzeTorpedo said:


> Try to stop worrying. There are women on this site whose husbands cheat on them, beat them, or completely ignore them for months or years at a time. Those women have significant problems. In comparison, your problem is insignificant.
> 
> Your husband seemed to be in a no-win situation. He could either be honest with you and watch you blow it into a capital offense, or he could be honest with his superiors that his wife dominates him. Either way, he's going to look bad. And peer pressure is real even for adults. I've seen one study that stated that a 30 year-old has about the same capacity for resisting peer pressure that an 18 year-old has. But your husband wasn't even in a group of peers. He was in a group of his superiors. That makes it even harder to resist the group.
> 
> In strip clubs, there is no sex going on. Chris Rock wrote a song about it called "No Sex in the Champagne Room."


Lap dances?



BronzeTorpedo said:


> Take a few days to process your emotions. You should realize that things aren't as serious as you currently think.


----------



## EleGirl

MLK22 said:


> Honestly, I think if he had come right out and told me, I think it would have at least been a good starting point. He struggles a little with the guys at work. He is mid level management in a blue collar position. You've got the (blue collar) guys below him who have always been equals who he is now in charge of, and the (money bred, college educated) guys above him who he has nothing in common with. He is struggling with that. He is now spending much more time with the higher ups due to his promotion, and feels he doesn't fit in well or interact well with them. These are the guys he went with. I can see he conundrum.* If he had been honest with me in the first place and presented it to me in that context - I would likely have still gotten angry. And I would likely be over it by now. But the lies, coupled with the pre-existing insecurities are just crushing me*.


Perhaps you could tell it to him this way. 

If you make it too uncomfortable/scary for him to tell you the truth this is what happens. His superiors on the job put him in a bad position. The bottom line is that this little trip to the strip joint was a form of bonding that some men use. 

If there had been a female employee present, the men would most likely have pretended to be done for the evening. And once she was out of sight taken off for the "good old boy's club" meeting at the strip joint. I've had this happen to me on business trips.

Your husband was most likely caught off guard and so he just went along. As you say he's feeling out of place around these guys. So standing up to them might be a bit intimidating. Now he knows what goes on during these trips. He has time to work on how to address it before another trip.


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## ConanHub

Hey Bronze. So if a wife's superiors decide she is gonna have some stripper dyck waved in her face, no big deal? She has no choice? Marital boundaries be damned? 

There are some pretty pathetic logic twisters on this thread.

Your superiors can't make you drink or watch naked people shake it in your face.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl

ConanHub said:


> Hey Bronze. So if a wife's superiors decide she is gonna have some stripper dyck waved in her face, no big deal? She has no choice? Marital boundaries be damned?
> 
> There are some pretty pathetic logic twisters on this thread.
> 
> Your superiors can't make you drink or watch naked people shake it in your face.


Now Conan, I've been in strip clubs. No one was shaking anything in anyone's face. The strippers were on a stage, some men sat is seats around the stage... the rest of the customers sat at tables around the room like any other club.

I've also been in places where men did the almost strip stuff... down to some little spandex things. No one was shaking anything in anyone's face.. again.


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## ConanHub

EleGirl said:


> Now Conan, I've been in strip clubs. No one was shaking anything in anyone's face. The strippers were on a stage, some men sat is seats around the stage... the rest of the customers sat at tables around the room like any other club.
> 
> I've also been in places where men did the almost strip stuff... down to some little spandex things. No one was shaking anything in anyone's face.. again.


Depends on the group. I know a very popular group that my friend's wife goes to see on occasion. Yes they do shake it in your face.

It was not a super literal statement. There may be distance but there are always naked people shaking their parts for everyone's sexual entertainment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MLK22

What I find hard to swallow here is those that are saying "big deal" and "of course he didn't tell you, you're crazy".... You are obviously not reading everything. Yes, I have blown up about this. I was hurt, angry, embarrassed, SAD. But FELLAS, those who are saying this is no biggy, hear me now -- my husband would really not be okay if the tables were turned. REALLY, TRULY. My reaction is no more extreme than his would be. This is not the kind of marriage we have had up until this point. And listen -- it is okay to get angry with someone you love when they break your trust. It is also pretty normal (as I'm finding out) that I would question his attraction to ME because of this incident. Particularly with our preexisting issues. I won't be shamed or made to feel like an hysterical silly woman.
That being said, we discussed again tonight. I accept that he felt he was in a no win situation, and that I can be pretty scary to come clean with. Poor excuse - but I can process it. He also opened up more about the club, the atmosphere, the women... This lifted some of the heaviness for me, as it removed some of the mystery. I just want some HONESTY. I want to forgive him, because honestly, he's pretty amazing, but I needed a truthful place to START. 

We further discussed the underlying issues I have with the frequency of sex. I've been married to the man 5 years and this was the first time I've seen him cry. He says his sex drive has decreased over the last couple of years and he was too embarrassed to talk about it. Now he is afraid of losing me, so he was forced to. If this is real, and all indications are that it is, it explains a lot. Sometimes I really have to put in WORK to get his motor going... Anyway, I've worried for so long that it was ME. THIS I can work with.


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## that.girl

MLK22 said:


> I can be pretty scary to come clean with...
> I just want some HONESTY.


You have a right to be mad. But if the consequences for getting caught in a lie are too similar to the consequences for telling the truth, sometimes a cornered person will lie and hope they don't get caught. If you TRULY want honesty, this is a good opportunity to work on how you receive it, so your husband feels more comfortable giving it to you.

FWIW, i wonder if he would have reacted differently, if instead of setting him up and then busting him in the lie, you had just outright asked him about the charges on the card.


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## DoF

norajane said:


> That's a lovely sentiment, and is what every wife would want to hear and believe. :smthumbup:
> 
> It becomes difficult to believe it, though, when your H is masturbating to porn bodies and going to strip clubs to enjoy looking at much-closer-to-perfect stripper bodies, and all the while is putting you off when you initiate sex with him.


THEN it's a problem.

BUT not every husband is like above.


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## MLK22

I know people sometimes struggle with being direct with me because I tend to be very reactive. I've had this problem with my kids. I've found myself apologizing down the road for making in harder for them to talk to me. And I will be honest, the first two days of this I went ape****. Lost my mind. So, if I come away with something here that I, personally, can work on- that is for sure it.


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## PBear

And MLK, this is where counseling might be able to help. Either individual or marriage. It can give you tools to handle things.

You can suggest your husband go for hormone level testing. As he ages, his testosterone levels will decline, and that can affect his sex drive. How old is he? How's his health? His weight?

C


----------



## Dad&Hubby

MLK22 said:


> Honestly, I think if he had come right out and told me, I think it would have at least been a good starting point. He struggles a little with the guys at work. He is mid level management in a blue collar position. You've got the (blue collar) guys below him who have always been equals who he is now in charge of, and the (money bred, college educated) guys above him who he has nothing in common with. He is struggling with that. He is now spending much more time with the higher ups due to his promotion, and feels he doesn't fit in well or interact well with them. These are the guys he went with. I can see he conundrum. If he had been honest with me in the first place and presented it to me in that context - I would likely have still gotten angry. And I would likely be over it by now. But the lies, coupled with the pre-existing insecurities are just crushing me.


I'm not giving a pass to your husband's lies....he chose the wrong path, and now he has to deal with the results (your issues).

BUT...I do want to look at your side. He was in a no-win situation. Disappoint his superiors or disappoint you. He knows your insecurities and I would venture to guess this wouldn't be the first time you've gotten upset over issues. (Sorry to say, but your insecurity seems to be pretty substantial). So he was in a difficult position, and instead of giving him support and promoting a positive outcome...you also made poor choices.

Honesty isn't something that exists in a vacuum for most people. There are some people that are honest with total disregard to their environment, but that's VERY rare. The problem you have is you haven't set up an environment where your husband feels safe being honest with you. It's the pleasure/pain principle. It's more painful to be honest with you over something bad. You haven't established a "safe-zone" if you will. Your reaction to his lie could've easily been one of TOTAL support over the strip club issue but then deal with the lies.

The problem is you attacked BOTH issues. So your husband is faced with....I eat a crap sandwich if I tell the truth...I eat a crap sandwich if I lie.

Again. Your husband owns the lies.....no ifs ands or buts. I'm simply addressing things YOU can do to help promote the behavior you're looking for.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

ConanHub said:


> Hey Bronze. So if a wife's superiors decide she is gonna have some stripper dyck waved in her face, no big deal? She has no choice? Marital boundaries be damned?
> 
> There are some pretty pathetic logic twisters on this thread.
> 
> Your superiors can't make you drink or watch naked people shake it in your face.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


On a different side of things.....I COMPLETELY agree with this.

I work in a very "old fashioned" industry that's one of the strongest "good ole boy" type businesses. It's largely male dominated, and there's a lot of client entertainment. Strip Clubs are an industry wide favorite. I've been in this for 10 years and I haven't taken a single client to a strip club. In my 40+ years of life, I haven't been to a strip club. It's a personal boundary for many reasons. There are always ways to get out of going. The OP's husband is definitely weak and needs to get some intestinal fortitude.


----------



## UMP

MLK22, 
I am a man and get out of town once or twice a year teaching people how to drive on race tracks. (raced cars back in the day). Anyway, it's a kind of all boys club. When old boys get together, away from home, they tend to reminisce about the bachelor wolf days. It's not that we jump right into cheating, we just sometimes want to FEEL that way again. Get as close as possible to it without jumping over the cliff. I believe this is what your husband did. I would cut him some slack. It sounds like you love him and it also looks to me that he loves you. Men are pigs. They clean up real nice but if they see a mud hole, BAMM, they can't help themselves and roll in the sh$t.


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## JustAnotherMan

This would have been a lot less stressful if you had first questioned him about the charges at a strip club. Instead you set him up to either lie and try to avoid your reaction or tell the truth and face your reaction immediately. 

If your reaction had been, "so I see you spent $28 at a strip club last night" you would both be getting over it by now. 

Hopefully, this bad situation will help to address another problem in your marriage, his reduced libido.


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## staarz21

UMP said:


> MLK22,
> I am a man and get out of town once or twice a year teaching people how to drive on race tracks. (raced cars back in the day). Anyway, it's a kind of all boys club. *When old boys get together, away from home, they tend to reminisce about the bachelor wolf days. It's not that we jump right into cheating, we just sometimes want to FEEL that way again. *Get as close as possible to it without jumping over the cliff. I believe this is what your husband did. I would cut him some slack. It sounds like you love him and it also looks to me that he loves you. Men are pigs. They clean up real nice but if they see a mud hole, BAMM, they can't help themselves and roll in the sh$t.


I'm a bit disturbed by this.


----------



## UMP

staarz21 said:


> I'm a bit disturbed by this.


It's what guys do. I've been married for 23 years and have never cheated. Just being real.
Now other men may have different experiences, just telling you mine and what I have seen.

Granted, I have never visited a strip club in those 23 years, but a guy tends to get a little loose when out of town with the boys. If it's once a year, with no actual cheating, I don't think it's a problem. IMO.


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## UMP

Lila said:


> As you stated, this is your personality and I'm sure that your wife is fully aware and onboard with it. However, as OP has stated time and again, this does not work for her in her relationship.
> 
> Telling her "it's what guys do" is an incorrect generalization. _Some _men do this, other's don't. Asking her to look the other way when he stomps all over her boundary is tantamount to saying 'suck it up buttercut'.


OK. I can see where you are coming from, but it does not look to me that this is an ongoing ritual for her husband. Maybe I'm wrong. 
How about this: Tell him, "look, I know you did not cheat on me and you think this is no big deal, but I cannot/will not deal with you going to strip club even if it's once a year. If I find out you did this again, I'm leaving." End it with that. No talking about it again, and forget about it.
The reason I said what I said is that I know in MY heart, If it were me at the strip club, I should not have gone, but wanted to let loose a bit. I meant no harm but I can certainly understand why my wife would be upset. I'm trying to give the perspective of a loyal husband that just screwed up a bit.
I think he'll get the message.


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## norajane

MLK22 said:


> We further discussed the underlying issues I have with the frequency of sex. I've been married to the man 5 years and this was the first time I've seen him cry. *He says his sex drive has decreased over the last couple of years and he was too embarrassed to talk about it.* Now he is afraid of losing me, so he was forced to. If this is real, and all indications are that it is, it explains a lot. Sometimes I really have to put in WORK to get his motor going... Anyway, I've worried for so long that it was ME. THIS I can work with.


This sounds like a big break-through for the two of you. As you said, this is something you can work with now that you know what is going on with him that he's been keeping from you.

Sounds like it would be a good time for a full medical check-up to make sure his testosterone is at a good level, and to see what else might be affecting his libido.


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## UMP

norajane said:


> This sounds like a big break-through for the two of you. As you said, this is something you can work with now that you know what is going on with him that he's been keeping from you.
> 
> Sounds like it would be a good time for a full medical check-up to make sure his testosterone is at a good level, and to see what else might be affecting his libido.


Yes, a couple pumps a day from the "Androjel" worked wonders for me.


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## staarz21

UMP said:


> OK. I can see where you are coming from, but it does not look to me that this is an ongoing ritual for her husband. Maybe I'm wrong.
> How about this: Tell him, "look, I know you did not cheat on me and you think this is no big deal, but I cannot/will not deal with you going to strip club even if it's once a year. If I find out you did this again, I'm leaving." End it with that. No talking about it again, and forget about it.
> The reason I said what I said is that I know in MY heart, If it were me at the strip club, I should not have gone, but wanted to let loose a bit. I meant no harm but I can certainly understand why my wife would be upset. I'm trying to give the perspective of a loyal husband that just screwed up a bit.
> I think he'll get the message.


See, I totally understand this. It does leave a permanent mark for the wife though. She will forever (well, maybe not forever...but for a long while) doubt herself around her H. She will feel unattractive, she will feel she isn't good enough, she will feel like he doesn't really desire her. This is one thing I can say that men don't really understand at all. When women have babies, it ruins us in so many ways (not all of us...some are just lucky b*tches) stretchmarks, sagging skin, sagging boobs, weight gain, fatigue, messed up periods for a while, if we're breastfeeding there is a lot of pain associated with that for a while, then dealing with the leaking of milk spontaneously! 

Some women are totally okay with their bodies after babies, some of us go and have surgery (I did) because we don't like it, and some just never get over it and dislike their bodies forever. Our bodies change so much to accommodate new life
and it never goes back to the way it was before. It's like you have to learn to live in a new body suit. While it sounds nice to be confident and secure...many of us just can't get there. I'm almost 31 now and am finally starting to not give a flying, flipping, 8 legged squirrel what people think of me. I am finally starting to come around and be more confident in myself. But there are still days when I look in the mirror right before I shower and I just shake my head. Most days, I look in the mirror and high five myself! But those few days do still get to me sometimes. 

So, I get that he probably meant no harm, but in this case...there was harm. He knew it, too when he lied to her about it. I am sure he will learn from this though. They just need to talk it out. She needs to be more stern in her consequences if this is something she will not accept in the future. I agree that if she does not plan to leave him over this issue, then some understanding is in order for now. I didn't say accept it! I said, understand what happened, and make sure it doesn't happen again! 

Good luck!


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## MLK22

Staarz21, Yes, yes and yes!


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## UMP

Staarz21, 
My wife is 48 and things are starting to sag. However, when the moment is right, she is the most beautiful women on earth to me. That's really all that matters.
I understand what you are saying. Just last summer, my wife was out of town with the kids and I went to a very nice bar/restaurant for dinner. I only had 2 drinks, but was FLOORED. I ended up dancing with a woman. I think someone put something in my drink because I could hardly walk. I even waited till the place closed and still needed to call a cab to get home. I felt so guilty that I called my wife at 2:00am and told her everything. She forgave me, but even after 6 months or so, I can still see that it bothers her. She REFUSES to ever go to this restaurant, which was our favorite.
I see where you are coming from.


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## MLK22

PBear, he is 41. He does physical work and is in pretty good shape. Get effing carded everywhere we go, lol. 

With reference to the idea that "it's just what men do" and it's "harmless", I disagree. I think it is flirting with temptation. I see it has pushing back the boundaries and creating gray areas. I think it often (not always, often) leads to taking it one step further, and then another, until you've done something completely unforgivable.


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## MLK22

UMP, 
It makes us question EVERYTHING. while dancing may seem like no big deal to you - anything that ventures outside of normal behavior in your marriage (and excludes your wife) looks like a red flag to us. Well, me, anyway. Women see these things very differently. But I think that's because men don't really delve into the depths like women do. Men operate mostly on the surface, and don't typically think of what the underlying motivations might be.


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## UMP

MLK22 said:


> UMP,
> It makes us question EVERYTHING. while dancing may seem like no big deal to you - anything that ventures outside of normal behavior in your marriage (and excludes your wife) looks like a red flag to us. Well, me, anyway. Women see these things very differently. But I think that's because men don't really delve into the depths like women do. Men operate mostly on the surface, and don't typically think of what the underlying motivations might be.


I understand, but for some reason I think your husband is a good guy. Just something I sense. I could be wrong and I understand where you are coming from. I wanted to give a perspective of an otherwise good husband that just screwed up. Yes, you are correct. It is "flirting with temptation". That's the part the seems irresistible for some men. I'm not saying it's right, just saying I understand the concept because I am a man and "flirting" with temptation is sometimes very tempting for a middle aged married man. 
I guess I just want you for forgive him. I'm not sure why, I just do


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## John Lee

MLK22 said:


> PBear, he is 41. He does physical work and is in pretty good shape. Get effing carded everywhere we go, lol.
> 
> With reference to the idea that "it's just what men do" and it's "harmless", I disagree. I think it is flirting with temptation. I see it has pushing back the boundaries and creating gray areas. I think it often (not always, often) leads to taking it one step further, and then another, until you've done something completely unforgivable.


That's all reasonable of you to think, but the bottom line is it's something you have to hash out with him rather than seek judgment in the court of internet opinion, know what I mean? Boundaries are better when two people agree to them. Judging from what you say about your husband, he will probably be ok with agreeing never to go to a strip club again without you even giving him an ultimatum, as long as you explain clearly why it hurts you. So have the talk with him.


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## that.girl

I think "the talk" will be much more successful if you offer up some of the suggestions on this thread for tactful ways he can excuse himself from going to the club, if he finds himself in that position again.

Help him find an easy way out without looking like a dork in front of his superiors, and he'll be more likely to take it.


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## Dad&Hubby

UMP said:


> It's what *SOME* guys do*, while other men find it abhorrent.* I've been married for 23 years and have never cheated. Just being real.
> Now other men may have different experiences, just telling you mine and what I have seen.
> 
> Granted, I have never visited a strip club in those 23 years, but a guy tends to get a little loose when out of town with the boys. If it's once a year, with no actual cheating, I don't think it's a problem. IMO.


Fixed that for you!


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## MLK22

Ump,
You are right. He is a good guy. And he is overall very good to me. He is truly remorseful I believe, and he does, ultimately deserve my forgiveness.

John Lee,
You make the assumption I can here looking for the people of the internet to tell me how right I am about everything. If that is what I wanted, I would have turned to my sisters, my mom, my friends.... On the contrary I came here looking for some insight and guidance (isn't that the point here?). I really came here to be talked down from the edge, if I'm being honest. I wanted to be able to process this in a different way -- because I was stuck. And I'm glad I did. Most of the input has been very helpful.


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## MLK22

"Boundaries are better when two people agree to them. Judging from what you say about your husband, he will probably be ok with agreeing never to go to a strip club again without you even giving him an ultimatum, as long as you explain clearly why it hurts you. So have the talk with him."

We had previously discussed these boundaries, and he was in full agreement agreement with them. After all, he doesn't want me in a strip club either. Hell, he has an issue if someone doesn't realize we are together and offers to buy me a drink. I'm not just this crazy, possessive woman. This is the nature of our relationship - we walk the line, so to speak. His expectations of me are very high as well. Ultimately, this wasn't a situation where he wasn't sure of how I'd feel - he knew. It was a situation where he didn't want to risk looking like a p*ssy in front of the guys from work. But for me, that's not acceptable. Integrity is important. Do what you say, say what you mean.


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## Yeswecan

MLK22 said:


> I have to say that I know for sure this is the first time since we've been together. Not because I'm at all naive, but because he is a codependent somebody and does not like to go anywhere without me. I have tried to get him to, so he can have a sense of self outside of me - but he says he is just not happy when he's not by my side. Ironically, he texted me almost nonstop the whole time he was on this trip. Even from the strip club. But really, the fact that this is the first time, in some ways, makes me more worried. Because, as I said, it is the first time he's really done anything AWAY from me. So is his previous good behavior simply a lack of opportunity?


If he was texting you the entire time, including while in the establishment, then I would say going to the club is not his bag. It was his coworkers idea and possibly pushing him to go along. 

Years ago I was in sales. Many of my customers liked to frequent the strip clubs. These are not my cup of tea. My W said ok but let her know if I did go with a customer. Well, I did with a customer. Again, not my cup of tea and still isn't. My W busted a gut when I said I went with a customer. I down played it. Much like your H. I kind of felt trapped but it gave me resolve to not take these customers out to these establishments. My W was not good with it. If needed, I would go find a job that would not have me entertaining customers. So, with that said, speak your peace NOW. Express your concerns and desire that your H do not go to these places. Trust that he will stay in his room or find a activity that does not include strip clubs.

Set the boundary now. Expect future results to be much better. It worked for me and my W.


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## Me Vietare

Wow OP. Way way over the top. You say you want observations and advice. Here's mine: Drop It. 

But, I'm thinking you won't. You'll grind and grind and grind. Your bloodhound/bulldog reaction exactly tells me why he reverted to Betaman conflict avoidance and lied. 

Is lying bad? YES!
Worse is acting like a warden who treats a spouse like an inmate.

Keep doing it and you won't have a mate. The worm will turn and you'll be co-parenting separately. 

Cheers


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## changedbeliefs

MLK22 said:


> He has has always treated me like a queen. He takes really good care of me


And you are about to give yourself a ****ing aneurysm over $28 at a strip club. Find something more important to worry about.



MLK22 said:


> He is truly remorseful I believe, and he does, ultimately deserve my forgiveness.


Go ahead, make him feel so bad about this that he needs to be "remorseful" and get your "forgiveness," and you'll see your relationship slowly deteriorate from here. JMHO.


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## Yeswecan

changedbeliefs said:


> And you are about to give yourself a ****ing aneurysm over $28 at a strip club. Find something more important to worry about.
> 
> 
> Go ahead, make him feel so bad about this that he needs to be "remorseful" and get your "forgiveness," and you'll see your relationship slowly deteriorate from here. JMHO.


Here is the thing...picking your battles is a good thing. How you fight the battle is another thing. He minimized and lied because H knew he had done wrong(not sure if you set a boundary prior to this trip) and was looking to have minimal damage to the impeding storm he knew was coming. His thoughts were right. The storm came. Now, discuss the boundary for clubs and bachelor parties(these are coming as well). Once that is done, do not bring it up again. And, $28.00 in a club is basically 2-3 beers and maybe a shot of rot gut.


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## BronzeTorpedo

ConanHub said:


> Hey Bronze. So if a wife's superiors decide she is gonna have some stripper dyck waved in her face, no big deal? She has no choice? Marital boundaries be damned?
> 
> There are some pretty pathetic logic twisters on this thread.
> 
> Your superiors can't make you drink or watch naked people shake it in your face.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If I gave you the impression that I believe that peer pressure completely vacates free will, I apologize. I know I didn't write that and I certainly didn't mean to imply it. Peer pressure is exactly what it sounds like. Pressure. It's an incentive to go along with a group.

So, under your unusual hypothetical scenario, she would have a choice. But the group pressure would also exist for her. And if her husband came on here hysterically writing that his entire marriage is a sham and that he never even knew his wife at all (because she had seen a naked man) then I would tell that man to calm down and count to ten.

I think it's only logical to acknowledge the clear distinction between watching a person dance around nude, or nearly nude, and having adulterous sex with that person. The latter is a significant problem. The former isn't.


----------



## MLK22

I mean, apparently some of you are not HEARING me. I most DEFINITELY do not act like a warden. If you had read the previous posts you would know that I CONTINUOUSLY encourage him to go out and do things WITHOUT me. He typically WILL NOT do it. Also, he has the exact same expectations of ME as I have of HIM. He would, no doubt, lose his **** if the tables were turned, and struggle with trusting me in the future. Those of you who think I'm acting crazy, driving him away with my "warden" like behavior, are giving an off the cuff opinion from reading the original post and not the follow ups. And, side note, I suggested I should go out with my girlfriends to a strip club and he was not hearing it. And even in the light of all of this -- I won't just go ahead and do it anyway -- because I RESPECT his feelings - and STILL don't want to hurt him, even though he hurt me.

He has an obligation to RESPECT my feelings and the boundaries within our relationship. I have the RIGHT to be angry when he doesn't. AND to expect remorse. How can you forgive someone who is not sorry? You may think strip clubs are acceptable and harmless, I do not -- and clearly neither does my husband (judging by the fact that he doesn't want me anywhere near one).


----------



## MLK22

Another (rather ironic) side note:

The trip was only an overnight, 2 day trip, and it was 2 hours away. He had the option of not staying overnight, and originally stated that he did not want to. Said he doesn't sleep well when he's not next to me. But I strongly encouraged him to stay -- have dinner with the guys from work, go out and hit a few bars -- do a little male bonding. Get away from ME for a while and do his own thing. I just didn't expect that this would be what his "thing" was...


----------



## Yeswecan

MLK22 said:


> Another (rather ironic) side note:
> 
> The trip was only an overnight, 2 day trip, and it was 2 hours away. He had the option of not staying overnight, and originally stated that he did not want to. Said he doesn't sleep well when he's not next to me. But I strongly encouraged him to stay -- have dinner with the guys from work, go out and hit a few bars -- do a little male bonding. Get away from ME for a while and do his own thing. I just didn't expect that this would be what his "thing" was...


You are making it his "thing".... Honestly, your reaction I can understand but it is getting a bit overboard now. You make it sound as if this is something he does nightly with lap dances included. The wound is open. Help close it. Do not pour more salt in it later. Learn from it.


----------



## MLK22

BronzeTorpedo said:


> I think it's only logical to acknowledge the clear distinction between watching a person dance around nude, or nearly nude, and having adulterous sex with that person. The latter is a significant problem. The former isn't.


According to who exactly? Trust me, it would have been a real problem for HIM if I had done it.

My problem is this -- boundaries have been set. His expectations have always been and STILL remain that I will not go to a strip club. I believe that, particularly as a man reaches 40, flirting with temptation can lead to disaster. There are situations I specifically avoid, so as not to be tempted (which is what he expects of me). I expect him to do the same.


----------



## that.girl

I'm not trying to comment on whether going to the club at all is appropriate. But I'd like to point out that him trying to save face in front of his coworkers and superiors is a little different than you having a girls night out.

Was he wanting to look at naked ladies, or wanting to keep his standing at work?


----------



## UMP

MLK22, 
Let's do a little role play.
I'm your husband.

"MLK22, I am sorry. I f$cked up and should not have gone to the strip club. My co-workers insisted and I went. I had a few drinks and went back to the hotel. Nothing happened. I love you and ask your forgiveness."


----------



## MLK22

I'm not making it his "thing". I used that phrasing to reflect how I felt initially. I have since come to the conclusion that this really was a peer pressure situation, and that he didn't come clean because I tend to be very reactive. And I'm owning that part. Sometimes I derail. I have to get that in check. 

And many (most) of the comments on this thread have assisted me in coming to that conclusion. I appreciate that which has been productive, including constructive criticism - without taking the "big deal" stance. Those who tend to have the "big deal" stance, your energy is wasted here.

Do I realize there are bigger problems in other marriages? Of course I do. But that doesn't make my issue any less valid. And who is anyone to dictate to me what should matter to me and what shouldn't?


----------



## anonmd

These reactions are where the term bat**** crazy comes from, after you've extracted your pound of flesh drop it.


----------



## MLK22

Ump,

I can't even. If he had outright said that to me in the first place, I admit I still would have lost my ****. I don't think the fall out would have been as bad, or as long, but I would have over reacted for sure. I am owning that now.

He has apologized, exactly like that. And I have accepted his apology. I love him dearly. However, apologies don't automatically make distrust or insecurities vanish -- so this is something he and I will have to work on together. I'm going to have to make a REAL EFFORT, and he's going to have to cut me some slack.


----------



## John Lee

MLK22 said:


> Ump,
> 
> I can't even. If he had outright said that to me in the first place, I admit I still would have lost my ****. I don't think the fall out would have been as bad, or as long, but I would have over reacted for sure. I am owning that now.
> 
> He has apologized, exactly like that. And I have accepted his apology. I love him dearly. However, apologies don't automatically make distrust or insecurities vanish -- so this is something he and I will have to work on together. I'm going to have to make a REAL EFFORT, and he's going to have to cut me some slack.


Maybe this is the kind of thing time will heal. But he did apologize and agree not to do it again, it sounds like. So I think the fact that you are still trying to convince yourself, or others, how wrong what he did is, is a little bit of an unhealthy obsession. Again, I'm not saying what he did isn't wrong, I'm just saying you seem to still want some kind of vindication, even though you say he apologized and you accepted his apology. I commend you for talking it out with him and accepting his apology, that was a good approach. I didn't mean to give the impression I thought you were being too controlling, or that you should just not care that he went to the strip club and lied about it. Just now it seems like the grip that event has on your mind is very strong, and you might try to figure out how to feel less insecure about it. 

By the way, my own wife is pregnant and feeling bad about herself, and your posts were a good reminder for me to compliment her, make her feel good about herself, remind her that I still think she is beautiful, which I do, so thanks for that.


----------



## Yeswecan

MLK22 said:


> Ump,
> 
> I can't even. If he had outright said that to me in the first place, I admit I still would have lost my ****. I don't think the fall out would have been as bad, or as long, but I would have over reacted for sure. I am owning that now.
> 
> He has apologized, exactly like that. And I have accepted his apology. I love him dearly. However, apologies don't automatically make distrust or insecurities vanish -- so this is something he and I will have to work on together. I'm going to have to make a REAL EFFORT, and he's going to have to cut me some slack.


Do not keep a score card.


----------



## DoF

I like these 2 posts above (from John Lee and OP). Very nice.

Don't worry about this OP. Remember, your insecurities were there LONG before he even went to a strip joint. So act of him going didn't really do anything but made it come out into open MORE.

It's ok if he gets to see another women naked. Isn't that part of nature? Men and Women are attracted to opposite sex, relationship/marriage doesn't change that. 

I don't see anything wrong with looking at naked people, I find it beautiful. I love women so it's just something that naturally appeals to me. I have a feeling your husband feels the same way.

And no, I wouldn't mind if my wife was to go to a strip joint. Heck would probably be excited for her.

HOWEVER, I do remember myself being insecure and just like you.....and even thinking about this sort of thing would drive me insane.

What he sees, dreams about, thinks or even admires are all the things that really don't matter to a relationship.

What he does PHYSICALLY matters, and although it is inappropriate for a married men to be in a place like that........let it go, let him have a little eye candy, after all, you said it yourself, he has been a great husband and very loyal. 

Little fun/reward should be in order. Besides, I'm sure it will improve your sex life as well.

I guarantee that no stripper/skanky woman will EVER EVER EVER and FOREVER even be an ant to him next to you.

It's not even apples to oranges, we are talking Bacteria size to Juniper size.


----------



## Yeswecan

MLK22 said:


> I'm not making it his "thing". I used that phrasing to reflect how I felt initially. I have since come to the conclusion that this really was a peer pressure situation, and that he didn't come clean because I tend to be very reactive. And I'm owning that part. Sometimes I derail. I have to get that in check.
> 
> And many (most) of the comments on this thread have assisted me in coming to that conclusion. I appreciate that which has been productive, including constructive criticism - without taking the "big deal" stance. Those who tend to have the "big deal" stance, your energy is wasted here.
> 
> Do I realize there are bigger problems in other marriages? Of course I do. But that doesn't make my issue any less valid. And who is anyone to dictate to me what should matter to me and what shouldn't?


The key here is both learn from this incident. You move on in a closer relationship as a boundary has been strongly established. 

And yes, this is a big problem if left unaddressed. So I would not put it this a pond scum level for marriage problems. Going to the skin bars, IMO, is disrespectful of their spouse. So, you have a very valid issue.

And you are correct, one persons crisis my not be a crisis for someone else. This matters to you as it did to my W when I went to the skin-flint bar with a customer.  Just like you, she went off like a rocket on New Years day. But, boundaries were established. We moved on. BTW...my skin bar incident was over 19 years ago. We will be happily married 21 years this April. It is all in the communication.


----------



## richardsharpe

Good evening all
I think this all relates to the concept of "punishment" in marriage. Person "A" does something bad and "B" reacts in a way to punish them - yelling, removing intimacy, threats, tears, whatever.

A lot of couples behave this way. Personally though I think it is a bad approach. If "A" backs down, they may well fell resentful. They may question "B"'s authority to punish them. They may later feel like they reacted out of weakness and to show their strength, will commit more "offenses".

If A doesn't back down, then things can escalate further. "I'll go to a strip club whenever I want - its none of your business". Then what - escalate punishment? 


I much prefer an approach of: B makes it clear that they are unhappy and why. NOT with tears that "punish" A, but make sure that A rationally understands why B is unhappy. This gives A a chance to explain why they did what they did - it may not be for the reasons B imagined. Hopefully A apologizes. 

If A is not willing to stop the behavior, then B needs to decide whether or not they are willing to stay in a relationship.


If the offense is unforgivable, then your only choice is to leave.


----------



## MLK22

Lila, spot on. I have a guy friend at work who sometimes swings by and asks me to lunch. Husband thinks he's sketchy. This friend is thoroughly clear on my adoration of my husband and knows I will not test my boundaries. Although I think having lunch with him is harmless, I do not go. Why? Because my husband is uncomfortable with it. So what do I get? What is my reward?

The idea that men deserve rewards for doing the right thing is preposterous. I am a good, loving, faithful wife. I deny him nothing with regards to intimacy -- NOTHING. I lift him up at every opportunity. I believe that you can not immasculate a man and expect him to remain faithful in a marriage, so I give in where I can. I support him in every way I know how.
His reward is an adoring wife. If that is not enough, he has the wrong wife.


----------



## BronzeTorpedo

MLK22 said:


> According to who exactly?


I think the belief that watching a woman dance in a club is different than having adulterous sex with same woman is ubiquitous.



> I believe that, particularly as a man reaches 40, flirting with temptation can lead to disaster. There are situations I specifically avoid, so as not to be tempted (which is what he expects of me). I expect him to do the same.


If you mean sex, then you vastly overestimate the risk of strip clubs. Aside from Tiger Woods and other like him, nobody is going to strip clubs and having sex with the strippers. They go in, pay a few bucks to watch the girls dance, and leave.

Statistically, the risk of sex is much greater going on lunch dates with your male friend from work. I know you haven't gone, but you wrote that you don't see any risk in going.

Anyway, it's good to see that you're calming down, that you recognize your overreaction, and that you've both acknowledged some of the greater issues in your marriage. Keep focusing on those things rather than on insignificant issues.


----------



## MLK22

BronzeTorpedo,

Of course, outright having sex is worse than going to a strip club. My question "According to who exactly?" was directed at the specific statement "The latter is a significant problem. The former isn't." We all have our personal standards. I'm sure there are things that I consider insignificant that would be very significant to you. My question was to say - who sets the standards of what is significant within a marriage and what is not?

As I have stated, I believe, now, that he lied to try to prevent the **** storm that was inevitable, rather than to cover up bigger misdeeds. And I believe his motivation for going was primarily peer pressure. However, I strongly believe that men who seek out strip clubs because they feel they deserve a reward, a fantasy, eye candy and the like are headed for adultery, and probably, eventually, divorce. My PERSONAL belief is that, when you are married and you are having sexual experiences of any kind that you are intentionally shutting your spouse out of -- that is a sign of trouble. Couples who go to clubs together - more power to them (I can almost see the appeal), men who go with their wive's blessing - good on ya. No judgement here, what works for me might not work for you - and vice versa. For me, I don't want my husband to create a thirst that I cannot quench. 

And I just read the post, (somehow I missed it), by what appears to be a forum administrator or something - Anon.. something (sorry I lost it now), that read "This is where the term bat**** crazy comes from". I'm rather surprised by an administrator of a marital support message board to express such a strong, judgmental opinion. I've made it clear that his reaction would have been pretty much equal to mine, and I can't even process the folks who feel like because they think it is not big deal - neither should I. Also stated "Get your pound of flesh and move on"... I ASSURE you, I'm not looking for "a pound of flesh", nor have I been attempting to punish him. If I were trying to "punish" him - I would have ran right out and done the same thing in retaliation. After all, it harmless, right? My reaction came from a very real place. I was (am) deeply hurt. I was confused by his actions that did not match the man I know. And I was questioning whether or not I was fulfilling his needs. I was feeling incredibly vulnerable and defeated. And that is NOT ABNORMAL. Maybe most women would quietly ponder and softly discuss. I'm not most women, for sure. 

It took me a week to get here. To a place where I'm accepting this whole thing at face value. Peer pressure is why he went. My tendency to flip out is why he didn't tell the truth. I would have come to this conclusion sooner had he not lied to me and thereby giving me the impression that he had something more to hide. I'm feeling a little more peaceful inside about it today. It was still wrong. I'm not writing him a pass on this. He wouldn't write me one either. But it's not a deal breaker, nor does it mean the trust is forever gone. I have no interest in throwing the baby out with the bath water.


----------



## MLK22

"Statistically, the risk of sex is much greater going on lunch dates with your male friend from work. I know you haven't gone, but you wrote that you don't see any risk in going."

Are there really statistics on this? Or is this simply an opinion?

Cause I tend to think that married men who frequent strip clubs are going to eventually take it a step further, with a "real life" woman - desensitization being what it is...


----------



## DoF

BronzeTorpedo said:


> I think the belief that watching a woman dance in a club is different than having adulterous sex with same woman is ubiquitous.
> 
> 
> If you mean sex, then you vastly overestimate the risk of strip clubs. Aside from Tiger Woods and other like him, nobody is going to strip clubs and having sex with the strippers. They go in, pay a few bucks to watch the girls dance, and leave.
> 
> Statistically, the risk of sex is much greater going on lunch dates with your male friend from work. I know you haven't gone, but you wrote that you don't see any risk in going.
> 
> Anyway, it's good to see that you're calming down, that you recognize your overreaction, and that you've both acknowledged some of the greater issues in your marriage. Keep focusing on those things rather than on insignificant issues.


All good points.


----------



## DoF

MLK22 said:


> "Statistically, the risk of sex is much greater going on lunch dates with your male friend from work. I know you haven't gone, but you wrote that you don't see any risk in going."
> 
> Are there really statistics on this? Or is this simply an opinion?
> 
> Cause I tend to think that married men who frequent strip clubs are going to eventually take it a step further, with a "real life" woman - desensitization being what it is...


There are, I don't recall the #s but high percentage of cheating does start at a workplace.

Also there is a HUGE difference with "men who frequent strip joint" and "first time going". Your husband is #2. Cut him some slack.


----------



## DoF

MLK22 said:


> BronzeTorpedo,
> 
> Of course, outright having sex is worse than going to a strip club. My question "According to who exactly?" was directed at the specific statement "The latter is a significant problem. The former isn't." We all have our personal standards. I'm sure there are things that I consider insignificant that would be very significant to you. My question was to say - who sets the standards of what is significant within a marriage and what is not?
> 
> As I have stated, I believe, now, that he lied to try to prevent the **** storm that was inevitable, rather than to cover up bigger misdeeds. And I believe his motivation for going was primarily peer pressure. However, I strongly believe that men who seek out strip clubs because they feel they deserve a reward, a fantasy, eye candy and the like are headed for adultery, and probably, eventually, divorce. My PERSONAL belief is that, when you are married and you are having sexual experiences of any kind that you are intentionally shutting your spouse out of -- that is a sign of trouble. Couples who go to clubs together - more power to them (I can almost see the appeal), men who go with their wive's blessing - good on ya. No judgement here, what works for me might not work for you - and vice versa. For me, I don't want my husband to create a thirst that I cannot quench.
> 
> And I just read the post, (somehow I missed it), by what appears to be a forum administrator or something - Anon.. something (sorry I lost it now), that read "This is where the term bat**** crazy comes from". I'm rather surprised by an administrator of a marital support message board to express such a strong, judgmental opinion. I've made it clear that his reaction would have been pretty much equal to mine, and I can't even process the folks who feel like because they think it is not big deal - neither should I. Also stated "Get your pound of flesh and move on"... I ASSURE you, I'm not looking for "a pound of flesh", nor have I been attempting to punish him. If I were trying to "punish" him - I would have ran right out and done the same thing in retaliation. After all, it harmless, right? My reaction came from a very real place. I was (am) deeply hurt. I was confused by his actions that did not match the man I know. And I was questioning whether or not I was fulfilling his needs. I was feeling incredibly vulnerable and defeated. And that is NOT ABNORMAL. Maybe most women would quietly ponder and softly discuss. I'm not most women, for sure.
> 
> It took me a week to get here. To a place where I'm accepting this whole thing at face value. *Peer pressure is why he went. My tendency to flip out is why he didn't tell the truth. *I would have come to this conclusion sooner had he not lied to me and thereby giving me the impression that he had something more to hide. I'm feeling a little more peaceful inside about it today. It was still wrong. I'm not writing him a pass on this. He wouldn't write me one either. But it's not a deal breaker, nor does it mean the trust is forever gone. I have no interest in throwing the baby out with the bath water.


This all sounds fine, last paragraph is very important (especially in bold). As you can tell, your anger and reactions to "certain things" prevent your husband from being honest.

So def work on that. Communication, honesty and being able to come to a table and talk about ANYTHING is important in a marriage.

What lot of us are trying to tell you is that men are sexual beings. Our brains trick us and bring up things your husband would probably never EVER even dare to share with you. Clearly, he has done a great job managing those thoughts when they come up......it's not easy, trust me on that. 

Little break is fine. 

Also, I would recommend that you calmly ask your husband to put yourself in YOUR shoes on the subject. You might be surprised at his reaction....

10 years ago my reaction would've been no different than yours. Today, no, I would not want my wife to be the "frequent type", but if she wanted to go......I would approve and even be excited. So what if she sees some naked dude, let her enjoy her human nature a little.

I'm sure I will be the one to get the good stuff afterwords.


----------



## MLK22

And I AM cutting him some slack at this point. 

But I am speaking on marriage and strip clubs in general now, and I won't accept this behavior in the future. I think it's a recipe for disaster. I'm not saying these husbands cheat with strippers, but they are teasing and tempting themselves with what they cannot (or should not) have. If we are on a diet, but we keep stopping by the bakery to smell the pastries - eventually we're going to eat one.


----------



## DoF

MLK22 said:


> And I AM cutting him some slack at this point.
> 
> But I am speaking on marriage and strip clubs in general now, and I won't accept this behavior in the future. I think it's a recipe for disaster. I'm not saying these husbands cheat with strippers, but they are teasing and tempting themselves with what they cannot (or should not) have. If we are on a diet, but we keep stopping by the bakery to smell the pastries - eventually we're going to eat one.


Not disagreeing with you at all.

It's important to be responsible and keep yourself out of situation with potential risk while married. But there ARE times that you can't (working is a great example, it's more high risk)Your husband can't really say "no work is a rule" either.


----------



## Cletus

MLK22 said:


> If we are on a diet, but we keep stopping by the bakery to smell the pastries - eventually we're going to eat one.


Unless the pastries are three days old, moldy around the edges, already have a bite taken out of the middle and have had all the creme sucked out. You know, like the pastries at a strip club.


----------



## MLK22

DoF said:


> This all sounds fine, last paragraph is very important (especially in bold). As you can tell, your anger and reactions to "certain things" prevent your husband from being honest.
> 
> So def work on that. Communication, honesty and being able to come to a table and talk about ANYTHING is important in a marriage.


DoF,

I agree that the statement in bold is important. I accept that I am sometimes unapproachable and I need to work on that. That being said, let us not forget how we got here in the first place. I'm NOT going to accept the blame for that. It is NOT my fault that he didn't do the right thing - not when he crossed the line and went IN the strip club, and not when he chose to not tell the truth. As you said, communication is incredibly important in a marriage. He OWED it to me to tell me the truth and let me process it, regardless of how much he wanted to avoid my reaction. We have to examples here of HIM trying to avoid being uncomfortable or in conflict, thereby make a bad choice. THAT is an issue. And cutting him slack and accepting this at face value does not eliminate that CORE issue. I am NOT to blame for HIS actions. Only how I reacted to it.


----------



## MLK22

DoF said:


> Not disagreeing with you at all.
> 
> It's important to be responsible and keep yourself out of situation with potential risk while married. But there ARE times that you can't (working is a great example, it's more high risk)Your husband can't really say "no work is a rule" either.


No way can you compare choosing to say no to a strip club to choosing to say no to work. He DEFINITELY had a choice. It wasn't a comfortable one, but it was a choice. And he chose to do something that he would never want me to do.


----------



## DoF

norajane said:


> That's a lovely sentiment, and is what every wife would want to hear and believe. :smthumbup:


Thank you

I think most men feel like this, they just might not recognize that about themselves.......or better yet, not even REMOTELY come close to sharing it with their love one (which I think is a mistake).



norajane said:


> It becomes difficult to believe it, though, when your H is masturbating to porn bodies and going to strip clubs to enjoy looking at much-closer-to-perfect stripper bodies, and all the while is putting you off when you initiate sex with him.


I thought I just told you that "much closer to perfect" and "porn bodies" argument is irrelevant.

And I also realize that men use above as an excuse to cheat.....


----------



## DoF

MLK22 said:


> No way can you compare choosing to say no to a strip club to choosing to say no to work.


You brought up high risk situations right?

Working IS more high risk to cheat then going to strip joint. I don't think much cheating happens with strippers either.

So yes, there is a way and I think it's a valid argument.





MLK22 said:


> He DEFINITELY had a choice. It wasn't a comfortable one, but it was a choice. And he chose to do something that he would never want me to do.


Ask him....


----------



## Q tip

/snark
Ok, everything's been covered except the obvious.

Strip clubs exploit men not women. Just look at what's happening the the poor guy. He got promoted, in the big boys club now. Gotta keep up. W wants to knock him back a few notches. Exploited men unite!
/snark off

He should have informed and gained consent of W to go to such a place. Even better, turning it down the action and inform the Wife.

Communication is important. Good bad or ugly. It must happen.

If his desire has dropped over the years, CAREFULLY find a doctor who actually understands hormones. 99% are clueless. They only get 4 hours in medical school education on hormones. Thy are seriously ignorant of hormones and suggested levels.

They will always always always say his levels are normal for his age. This is simply incompetence on parade. Run. Find a real doc.

Total T must be 700-900
Free T 20-25
Estrodoil 20-30

Anything not in this range is bad. Well, T can be a bit higher without trouble from what I've seen. Watch the DHT too. 

There are flawed studies going around on TV/news saying T is bad. Ain't true. Says they get heart attacks from it. Not true. Levels were not high enough to protect against heart attacks and Estrodoil was not measured either. It's hard to find a man with levels 600 and above with those problems they tested, in fact, the studies ignore men with healthy levels of T. Duh!

If you want inexpensive T treatment get the prescription from the doc for Test Cream and get it from a compounding pharmacy. That should cost about $35 per month. And it's custom made for him. What pharmacy? Try Women's International in Arizona. One of the first compounding Pharmacies established I think. If the doc does not know of any - wrong doc.


----------



## MLK22

Ask him what?


----------



## MLK22

Also, I'd like to clarify - I think I didn't explain what I meant correctly...

I don't think the cheating happens with the strippers per se. What I am saying is that it is creating a thirst for something new and different and separate from one's wife. Eventually the thirst (or hunger, as I described it previously) gets quenched. Most likely with a more attainable woman in real life - outside the strip club. 

Tempt yourself enough and temptation will no longer satisfy you.


----------



## Cletus

MLK22 said:


> Also, I'd like to clarify - I think I didn't explain what I meant correctly...
> 
> I don't think the cheating happens with the strippers per se. What I am saying is that it is creating a thirst for something new and different and separate from one's wife. Eventually the thirst (or hunger, as I described it previously) gets quenched. Most likely with a more attainable woman in real life - outside the strip club.
> 
> Temp yourself enough and temptation will no longer satisfy you.


In that case, how is viewing online pornography any different than visiting a strip club? Or going to church, for that matter? Both should lead to dissatisfaction and cheating. Maybe porn use leading to cheating husbands is a real problem, but I haven't heard much about it yet. It seems to be more of an end in itself than a means.


----------



## MLK22

Exception:
Random things that just come up - bachelor parties, etc. I get that this is a guy bonding type thing.

I'm referring to habitual strip clubbing, so to speak.

I'm still wondering DoF, what you wanted me to ask him... if he would want ME to turn down going to the strip club if it's uncomfortable or embarrassing?


----------



## Q tip

MLK22 said:


> Also, I'd like to clarify - I think I didn't explain what I meant correctly...
> 
> I don't think the cheating happens with the strippers per se. What I am saying is that it is creating a thirst for something new and different and separate from one's wife. Eventually the thirst (or hunger, as I described it previously) gets quenched. Most likely with a more attainable woman in real life - outside the strip club.
> 
> Temp yourself enough and temptation will no longer satisfy you.


Well, I can resist everything, except temptation...

You are right. Haven't thought of it that way. I don't think your H is making strip clubs a part of his life. He owes you large for not letting you know.


----------



## anonmd

MLK22 said:


> Also, I'd like to clarify - I think I didn't explain what I meant correctly...
> 
> I don't think the cheating happens with the strippers per se. What I am saying is that it is creating a thirst for something new and different and separate from one's wife. Eventually the thirst (or hunger, as I described it previously) gets quenched. Most likely with a more attainable woman in real life - outside the strip club.
> 
> Temp yourself enough and temptation will no longer satisfy you.


BS, either your husband is a cheater or he is not. If he is not then any unquenched thirst is your responsibility to do the quenching.


----------



## MLK22

anonmd said:


> BS, either your husband is a cheater or he is not. If he is not then any unquenched thirst is your responsibility to do the quenching.


We all have the potential to do the wrong thing when we continuously choose to put ourselves in the wrong situation.

Had you read other posts, you would have read that I am available to him without limit. There is literally nothing I deny this man -- I cannot get enough of him. Which, as previously stated, was a big part of my problem with this. If I am ready, willing an able - but he opts for a strip club - then I must question his attraction to me. (Now, I have worked through this part of the issue, and I do believe, for the most part, that he went because he was in an awkward position.)


----------



## SimplyAmorous

MLK22 said:


> UMP,
> *It makes us question EVERYTHING. while dancing may seem like no big deal to you - anything that ventures outside of normal behavior in your marriage (and excludes your wife) looks like a red flag to us. Well, me, anyway. Women see these things very differently. But I think that's because men don't really delve into the depths like women do. Men operate mostly on the surface, and don't typically think of what the underlying motivations might be*.





> *Cause I tend to think that married men who frequent strip clubs are going to eventually take it a step further, with a "real life" woman - desensitization being what it is..*.


 MLK22...we all have our opinions here.. our own personal stories which leads to these opinions...... Ours is one where I was never worried about this for a moment..I have our marital journey plastered all over TAM.. most people here think I am TOO old fashioned in my sexual views even ..Imagine that .. 

Yet.. crazy as it may seen... we went to a strip club together...enjoyed it.. Now...if I had ANY notion my H wanted one of those women, or could fall into that.... we would have never stepped in that door....it was just never a concern.. not every story is as you are feeling....not that you have said this...it really does depend on the couple...

DoF did a post earlier ... It resonated with me because I've always been treated LIKE THIS.. felt this strongly...going there had no effect on our love for each other ...or his slipping down some slippery slope.... NONE.. if anything, it spiced our sex life UP!... I realize you think that's crazy.. but I am just speaking another point of view. 



DoF said:


> OP, please accept and realize that your body is priceless in not comparable to other women in your husbands view.
> 
> he loves you just the way you are.
> 
> DO NOT compare it to other women, the value of their bodies to him - 0.Value of your body = priceless
> 
> Show me your "perfect women" and put my wife next to her (mind you we are talking 4kids and plenty of damage from that) and I will pick my wife each and every time.
> 
> Heck, if anything, the imperfections actually appeal to me even more. I call them the battle scars. I find it sexy as hell that she put her body on the line for the kids/family.
> 
> NO BODY WILL EVER COMPARE EITHER.


 My Husband has referred to my stomach being beautiful -because of those battle scars...myself, our kids, that's his life.. 

*Yet*...he does enjoy seeing a woman dance around a pole !! should I lie.. should HE LIE.. would I want him to lie to spare me?? .... I have known since we met his flavor of excitement has always been seductive women dancing... he never even tried to go to a strip club because I was a christian, I felt it was wrong & we were happy.. always the honorable man..

Though as I got older.. I loosened up on some on these things.. not on US.. just on erotica... I want him to be able to BRING all of his *sexual fantasies* TO ME....I want to be able to talk VERY OPENLY about it all... what turns him on.. .what turns me on..and not be threatened by this.... I am not going to put him in the dog house for being HONEST with me over some arousal ... to me, that just shows his testosterone is pumping fine..I sure wouldn't choose the other. 

When we left the strip club the 1st night, I told him ..... "DO NOT SAY what you think I want to hear.. BE HONEST.. BE REAL...I certainly can understand the allure of hot bodies" I've gotten a shiver down my own spine looking at a sexy man...just his chest alone.. So I said "give it to me baby...what did you think ?".... something to this effect.. and he was Honest... telling me he would enjoy going back... so we did ! The allure wore off..as we fully expected it would.. no regrets...

A willing transparency from our lovers..what is this worth to you ??? (see my thread > http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...parency-what-means-our-marraige-what-you.html ) ...It's a very delicate thing...

Many will never achieve it.. they wouldn't be able to handle it.. 

Please understand ...you don't want to build fear in your Husband as you deal with this, that is...if you always WANT THE TRUTH......you have a part to play in this... in being approachable...so he can come to you with anything.. when he screws up, even if he lied due to this white collar pressure with his superiors ...

His texting you the whole time he was THERE speaks volumes to me.. his breech here.. when you really look at it.. was NOT one of the heart.. he is devoted to you...please see this as a bump in the road...and now openly discuss these Boundaries, also how he can deal with his co-workers if this comes up again...as it may. 

And accepting that he is truly remorseful.. if you believe that.. what I am about to say is.. IF he can not be totally honest WITH YOU -you may always question if he is telling you the truth...

Speaking of Testosterone... I was worried about my H's Testosterone levels during THAT time also....just as it sounds yours may be a concern to you...as he has spoken he is not sure what has happened.. (I assume he is not masturbating.. if so, that needs to stop ...so all his energies go to you)...

Please look into this.. My H was 45 at the time..he couldn't keep up with MY sex drive (though I was pushing it !)....we learned he was on the lower end of normal - so no need for treatment... DOc just handed us some Viagra.. (he was going through some stress at work, tested a couple yrs later, his numbers were higher even)..

Which I bet your husband is also stressed at work.. could be the culprit here (possible?)....with these white collar higher ups!... 

All I am trying to say here is.. take it from someone who has been around this block.. not all men are LIKE that.. from all you have shared, yours still sounds WONDERFUL.. nothing you have said gives ME the impression he wants to hurt you, or wants anyone else.... 




BronzeTorpedo said:


> *I think it's only logical to acknowledge the clear distinction between watching a person dance around nude, or nearly nude, and having adulterous sex with that person. The latter is a significant problem. The former isn't.*


 I personally see a grave difference... Yes...


----------



## MLK22

I also think the thought process of "any unquenched thirst is your responsibility to do the quenching" is a little jacked up.

Are you suggesting that I should be comfortable with him going out and getting worked up over other women's naked bodies and be the receptacle when he needs to release? Because I DEMAND that anyone I am with, yesterday, today, tomorrow -- be PRESENT with ME. If I am not enough motivation -- I no longer want the relationship.


----------



## Q tip

MLK22 said:


> We all have the potential to do the wrong thing when we continuously choose to put ourselves in the wrong situation.
> 
> Had you read other posts, you would have read that I am available to him without limit. There is literally nothing I deny this man -- I cannot get enough of him. Which, as previously stated, was a big part of my problem with this. If I am ready, willing an able - but he opts for a strip club - then I must question his attraction to me. (Now, I have worked through this part of the issue, and I do believe, for the most part, that he went because he was in an awkward position.)


Awkward for two reasons. Primarily you were not informed. And two, peer pressure. Wives and husbands are forever involved with each others descisions. Does not Matter what they are, both are impacted. Sometimes more than the other realizes. 

Communication is a solution.


----------



## Racer

MLK22 said:


> He has an obligation to RESPECT my feelings and the boundaries within our relationship. I have the RIGHT to be angry when he doesn't. AND to expect remorse. How can you forgive someone who is not sorry? You may think strip clubs are acceptable and harmless, I do not -- and clearly neither does my husband (judging by the fact that he doesn't want me anywhere near one).


Ooh… um… you hit my trigger words: Obligation, right, expect. He should absolutely be *considerate* of your beliefs and values. You should never expect he is obligated, or that it is now your right, to dictate what his beliefs and values should be (or visa-versa). 

So flip it in your head. How would you feel if your husband felt you were obligated, and have to respect his feelings and boundaries about strip clubs, male bonding and the opposite sex (or pick something else you don’t like that he does)? Does he own those rights or should he expect you be remorseful for disagreeing?

It’s because you love, honor and cherish each other that you can overcome these differences and find some harmony where it won’t become an issue. It’s a team thing, not a monarchy where one is dictating the terms of service ‘if you want to stay’.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Q tip said:


> Total T must be 700-900
> Free T 20-25
> Estrodoil 20-30
> 
> Anything not in this range is bad. Well, T can be a bit higher without trouble from what I've seen. Watch the DHT too.


 Well my H's wasn't anything near 700 --he had 9 morning tests, the lowest was 323..the highest being 503.. and still he was not given treatment.. but ya know what.. he was able to handle sex 6 - sometimes 7 times a week..(pretty much daily -maybe one slithered viagra for extra help -and we were good!)...

So did he really need treatment...I don't think so ! Now if he felt BLAAAHH about those dancers, I'd surely say he did !!

I am not trying to be funny, I really mean that. I would have been crying. Knowing he really had a problem..

..I feel the Endocrinologist did the right thing..... I have read a couple books on Testosterone.. some men have lower numbers all their lives... never really the aggressive type ..(I believe my H falls into this category- Post #11 on the thread below I speak of this... it was MY posts about my H that got one of the Mods attention here (wasn't a Mod then) and he told his Doc he wanted tested... Hey, it was good to be of some real help on TAM !. 

Refer to this thread on Testosterone, a lot of information in there.. 








.. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/19213-dealing-low-testosterone-hypogonadism.html


----------



## MLK22

SimplyAmorous said:


> MLK22...*we all have our opinions here.. our own personal stories which leads to these opinions...... *Ours is one where I was never worried about this for a moment..I have our marital journey plastered all over TAM.. most people here think I am TOO old fashioned in my sexual views even ..Imagine that ..
> 
> Yet.. crazy as it may seen... we went to a strip club together...enjoyed it.. Now...if I had ANY notion my H wanted one of those women, or could fall into that.... we would have never stepped in that door....it was just never a concern.. not every story is as you are feeling....not that you have said this...it really does depend on the couple...
> 
> DoF did a post earlier ... It resonated with me because I've always been treated LIKE THIS.. felt this strongly...going there had no effect on our love for each other ...or his slipping down some slippery slope.... NONE..* if anything, it spiced our sex life UP!... I realize you think that's crazy.. but I am just speaking another point of view. *
> 
> 
> My Husband has referred to my stomach being beautiful -because of those battle scars...myself, our kids, that's his life..
> 
> *Yet*...he does enjoy seeing a woman dance around a pole !! should I lie.. should HE LIE.. would I want him to lie to spare me?? .... I have known since we met his flavor of excitement has always been seductive women dancing... he never even tried to go to a strip club because I was a christian, I felt it was wrong & we were happy.. always the honorable man..
> 
> *Though as I got older.. I loosened up on some on these things.. not on US.. just on erotica... I want him to be able to BRING all of his sexual fantasies TO ME*....*I want to be able to talk VERY OPENLY about it all... what turns him on.. .what turns me on..and not be threatened by this.... *I am not going to put him in the dog house for being HONEST with me over some arousal ... to me, that just shows his testosterone is pumping fine..I sure wouldn't choose the other.
> 
> When we left the strip club the 1st night, I told him ..... "DO NOT SAY what you think I want to hear.. BE HONEST.. BE REAL...I certainly can understand the allure of hot bodies" I've gotten a shiver down my own spine looking at a sexy man...just his chest alone.. So I said "give it to me baby...what did you think ?".... something to this effect.. and he was Honest... telling me he would enjoy going back... so we did ! The allure wore off..as we fully expected it would.. no regrets...
> 
> *A willing transparency from our lovers..what is this worth to you ??? * (see my thread > http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...parency-what-means-our-marraige-what-you.html ) ...It's a very delicate thing...
> 
> Many will never achieve it.. they wouldn't be able to handle it..
> 
> Please understand ...you don't want to build fear in your Husband as you deal with this, that is...if you always WANT THE TRUTH......you have a part to play in this... in being approachable...so he can come to you with anything.. when he screws up, even if he lied due to this white collar pressure with his superiors ...
> 
> His texting you the whole time he was THERE speaks volumes to me.. his breech here.. when you really look at it.. was NOT one of the heart.. he is devoted to you...please see this as a bump in the road...and now openly discuss these Boundaries, also how he can deal with his co-workers if this comes up again...as it may.
> 
> And accepting that he is truly remorseful.. if you believe that.. what I am about to say is.. IF he can not be totally honest WITH YOU -you may always question if he is telling you the truth...
> 
> Speaking of Testosterone... I was worried about my H's Testosterone levels during THAT time also....just as it sounds yours may be a concern to you...as he has spoken he is not sure what has happened.. (I assume he is not masturbating.. if so, that needs to stop ...so all his energies go to you)...
> 
> Please look into this.. My H was 45 at the time..he couldn't keep up with MY sex drive (though I was pushing it !)....we learned he was on the lower end of normal - so no need for treatment... DOc just handed us some Viagra.. (he was going through some stress at work, tested a couple yrs later, his numbers were higher even)..
> 
> Which I bet your husband is also stressed at work.. could be the culprit here (possible?)....with these white collar higher ups!...
> 
> All I am trying to say here is.. take it from someone who has been around this block.. not all men are LIKE that.. from all you have shared, yours still sounds WONDERFUL.. nothing you have said gives ME the impression he wants to hurt you, or wants anyone else....
> 
> 
> I personally see a grave difference... Yes...


Absolutely all of this makes perfect sense to me. And the TRANSPARENCY is exactly why I was so troubled. In our scenario - there was no transparency. And I can actually see the appeal of going to a club TOGETHER. May have even considered going with him myself, had we ever discussed that as an option. It is the being shut out, lied to, that I cannot live with. If there is a sexual side of him that he is not allowing me in to - well, that just hurts. 

I didn't mean to paint with broad strokes on the strip club issue. It's not black and white. I was really referring to men who are sneaking around and doing it behind their wives backs on a regular basis. Which is what I was trying to nip in the bud with my H. You are right -- he is a really good man, and I think the world of him. And he is very devoted to me. Which is why I am letting this go. As long as it does not become a regular occurrence. 

Also - I fully recognize that there are many factors that contribute to the forming of opinions and there are many, many opinions out there. And I promise, I respect them all. To each his own. For me, though, his going to a strip club on a regular basis (clearly that is not where we are) would not be acceptable. His lying to me -- thoroughly unacceptable, regardless of repercussions. (Also acknowledging that I have to THINK before I react)

In the end, he knew that I have been struggling with questions of attraction within our marriage and that, as a result, I've been having some real body issues. His timing could not have been worse, and he really should have taken my feelings into consideration. Which he fully acknowledges. I adore him, this is absolutely just a bump in the road.


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## MLK22

Racer said:


> Ooh… um… you hit my trigger words: Obligation, right, expect. He should absolutely be *considerate* of your beliefs and values. You should never expect he is obligated, or that it is now your right, to dictate what his beliefs and values should be (or visa-versa).
> 
> So flip it in your head. How would you feel if your husband felt you were obligated, and have to respect his feelings and boundaries about strip clubs, male bonding and the opposite sex (or pick something else you don’t like that he does)? Does he own those rights or should he expect you be remorseful for disagreeing?
> 
> It’s because you love, honor and cherish each other that you can overcome these differences and find some harmony where it won’t become an issue. It’s a team thing, not a monarchy where one is dictating the terms of service ‘if you want to stay’.


Considering that he has expressed the same views and has set the same expectations on ME, yes, I feel I have the right to EXPECT them of him. These things were never "dictated" to him. It was a collective position. There are things that I think are harmless that I opt out of because he is uncomfortable with them. Male strip clubs would be one of those things, as I have previously stated. You can mince words if you like, but ultimately, in a marriage there ARE boundaries and expectations. And if you want the marriage to work - you MUST RESPECT them. Not necessarily without fail. ****ing up is what we do. But you must make your personal best effort to honor and respect the boundaries that both have agreed upon.


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## anonmd

MLK22 said:


> I also think the thought process of "any unquenched thirst is your responsibility to do the quenching" is a little jacked up.
> 
> Are you suggesting that I should be comfortable with him going out and getting worked up over other women's naked bodies and be the receptacle when he needs to release? Because I DEMAND that anyone I am with, yesterday, today, tomorrow -- be PRESENT with ME. If I am not enough motivation -- I no longer want the relationship.


That is not what I said and not what I meant. You seem to have all the answers, good luck.:sleeping:


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## MLK22

I definitely do NOT have all the answers, but I reject the idea that I must accept this behavior or I am a warden... a dictator...


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## Racer

MLK22 said:


> And if you want the marriage to work - you MUST RESPECT them. Not necessarily without fail. ****ing up is what we do. But you must make your personal best effort to honor and respect the boundaries that both have agreed upon.


That's cool if it's mutual. Like I said... you hit some of my 'nono' words that trigger my own bad marriage and the causation of it.

I agree that for a marriage to work, there must be respect. But it should never be 'expected' as though the ring is magical. Respect is earned. Just please don't take that for granted as though it's a duty owed to you just because it is how it should be. It needs to be how it is and you need to be worthy of it. (and visa-versa)


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## ConanHub

I love your wicked thought process intheory! &#55357;&#56840;&#55357;&#56840;&#55357;&#56840;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BucksBunny

I am half Irish so to me is a phrase if you translate from Gaelic is it’s ok to get hungry when your out just come home for your dinner.

No grabbing any fast food or junk food while your out you know a good home cooked meal will be on table when you get back. Don’t bother me if he gets hungry when he is out as long as he comes home for my cooking. Sorry did I miss point of this thread thought it was about cooking (wink, wink). So could not care less what he looks at as long as he comes back to me and did not touch no big deal he wants a stripper get me on a good day he can have it and he knows it so no threat in any way.


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## John Lee

MLK, although one can't always tell emotions from internet posts, it sounds like you are still fuming mad about this, and you are still posting with righteous anger against anyone who suggests a different view. I don't think you have to agree with anyone who says strip clubs are ok -- that's between you and your husband. But the amateur therapist in me feels like there is something more going on with you -- it's almost like you were waiting all these years for the other shoe to drop. I mentioned upthread that I detect that the two of you both have a very strong need for security. Maybe you are so afraid of your trust being violated that the second something finally happened, you snapped, almost like "see, I knew it all along!"

I don't know your husband or your marriage, but the way you describe him he sounds like a good and loyal husband who loves you. It doesn't sound like he's a cheater, it sounds like to the extent he ever looked at porn, it was less than a lot of married guys do, and it really does sound like this was one bad judgment call out of peer pressure rather than a genuine desire to go hang around strip clubs. 

Remember, you don't have the ideal husband, you have your husband. Maybe the ideal husband (or ConanHub) would NEVER make a mistake like that, but your real husband did. Sitting around replaying it in your mind and thinking about how your real husband measures up to the ideal husband is a good recipe for brewing more and more resentment. Look at the big picture of your husband and your marriage (and as noted above, if there are problems in your sex life, focus on that). 

I also notice that you frequently, in your posts, set yourself up as the ideal wife in contrast to your real husband. "I'm always ready and willing, it's he who has waning desire" "I turn down offers from the man who wants to buy me lunch even though I don't think anything would be wrong with it." I doubt you're actually the ideal wife, so ease up a little on that too. You don't have to be. There probably has been some time in your marriage when your husband wanted sex and you didn't. You've probably made mistakes before. And also, by the way, yes, there would be something wrong with accepting a lunch date from that man, not just because it makes your husband feel uncomfortable.


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## Q tip

SimplyAmorous said:


> Well my H's wasn't anything near 700 --he had 9 morning tests, the lowest was 323..the highest being 503.. and still he was not given treatment.. but ya know what.. he was able to handle sex 6 - sometimes 7 times a week..(pretty much daily -maybe one slithered viagra for extra help -and we were good!)...
> 
> So did he really need treatment...I don't think so ! Now if he felt BLAAAHH about those dancers, I'd surely say he did !!
> 
> I am not trying to be funny, I really mean that. I would have been crying. Knowing he really had a problem..
> 
> ..I feel the Endocrinologist did the right thing..... I have read a couple books on Testosterone.. some men have lower numbers all their lives... never really the aggressive type ..(I believe my H falls into this category- Post #11 on the thread below I speak of this... it was MY posts about my H that got one of the Mods attention here (wasn't a Mod then) and he told his Doc he wanted tested... Hey, it was good to be of some real help on TAM !.
> 
> Refer to this thread on Testosterone, a lot of information in there..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/19213-dealing-low-testosterone-hypogonadism.html


Read what you like. He's at risk for a lot of health issues. 

Testosterone is not just a sex hormone. Repeat that a thousand times. Please take him to a real doc. Get informed.

What was his DHT estrodoil, free T?


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## Anon1111

Damn, if I came home from a business trip to this, I'd be heading straight out the door right back to the strip club!


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## SimplyAmorous

MLK22 said:


> *Absolutely all of this makes perfect sense to me. And the TRANSPARENCY is exactly why I was so troubled. In our scenario - there was no transparency. And I can actually see the appeal of going to a club TOGETHER. May have even considered going with him myself, had we ever discussed that as an option. It is the being shut out, lied to, that I cannot live with. If there is a sexual side of him that he is not allowing me in to - well, that just hurts. *
> 
> I didn't mean to paint with broad strokes on the strip club issue. It's not black and white. I was really referring to men who are sneaking around and doing it behind their wives backs on a regular basis. Which is what I was trying to nip in the bud with my H. You are right -- he is a really good man, and I think the world of him. And he is very devoted to me. Which is why I am letting this go. As long as it does not become a regular occurrence.
> 
> Also - I fully recognize that there are many factors that contribute to the forming of opinions and there are many, many opinions out there. And I promise, I respect them all. To each his own. For me, though, his going to a strip club on a regular basis (clearly that is not where we are) would not be acceptable. His lying to me -- thoroughly unacceptable, regardless of repercussions. (Also acknowledging that I have to THINK before I react)
> 
> In the end, he knew that I have been struggling with questions of attraction within our marriage and that, as a result, I've been having some real body issues.* His timing could not have been worse, and he really should have taken my feelings into consideration. Which he fully acknowledges. I adore him, this is absolutely just a bump in the road.*


Much appreciate your response .. and everything you say sounds very reasonable..though I must say I was a bit surprised you said you might have even considered going WITH HIM! 

If you haven't read my opening post on that Transparency thread.... Please do take a moment.....it's something You and HE can talk about to put forth a new step in your marriage... to avoid anything like this ever happening again.. if this is what you both want... even on much smaller things.. as any time we find our spouses in a lie... it's a very big deal.. those motivations do MATTER , taking a hit on our foundation...

I couldn't BE with a man who couldn't give me this.. so in this way.. I get your ANGER with your Husband.. I really do.. I abhor lying.. did a thread on that too ! 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...s-why-people-lie-how-much-acceptable-you.html

I was talking to my H about your situation the other night...to get HIS THOUGHTS.. (all these opinions I know!)... at first he thought I was saying your Husbands JOB could be in jeopardy if he didn't Go, more than just a little pressure.. which in that case, he could see a man , if he needed to support his family to go with the flow ...he would see it as a lessor of 2 evils one could say.. especially with a family dependent on his sole income, for instance.. 

BUT then he would have been torn up over it..that he was hiding something.. his conscience would bother him.. (He's like that & it's a GOOD thing!)...we want our partners to FEEL THE jagged pill of lying.. and hiding.. YES!........He would have had to tell me.. but of course he knows , with me, I wouldn't go nuts on him over something like this. even when I was a christian...I might have ranted for a few minutes "HOW COULD YOU , you slime ball".. but then turned around and wanted all the dirty details as if I was sitting there beside him.. that's just ME... 

On to the Transparency thing.. I know my H like the back of my hand.. he is NOT a man who wants to HURT HIS WOMAN .... in anything.. . I asked him tonight something else...

Had I not said to him after our 1st outing there.. to PLEASE BE HONEST.. assuring him I could handle it ...to give it to me .....did he ENJOY , a little salivating...... that I was not going to flip out.. 

He said my pushing for his honest feelings.. assuring him it would be OK.. is the only reason he said he wouldnt mind going back.. he enjoyed it !... He felt comfortable to show some enthusiasm even.....had I NOT done this.. he would have brushed it off.. acting like "no big deal, once you see one body, you've seen them all" as to NOT hurt me.. and we would have never went back....

*He made it a point to EMPHASIZE he wouldn't want to say anything to hurt me*..

Now it is possible your Husband is THIS SORT OF MAN?? and in his predicament.. (lousy as it was....and making it 10 times worse with the hiding of it)....

Would you say.. above all.. 

*1.* He didn't want to get caught....because it would *HURT HIM* (his motivation for lying) ...putting him in the dog house...

*2.* He didn't want to *HURT YOU*...so he took his chances trying to cover this up...(his motivation actually being more sincere) even though it came back to BITE HARD!

*3.* He put his Co-workers above his INtegrity.. it was a mistake.. he now fully realizes how much of a mistake it was...he's now in a mess that he would have never chosen or wanted to be involved in... in hindsight - he would have handled it very differently...

I haven't read all of your posts here.. this thread has taken off like WILD FIRE.. does he know you are posting here - pouring out your hurt and disappointment ? 

It baffles me he is so against you doing what he has done.. a night out with the girls -watching male dancers....it almost sounds he is rather controlling to YOUR THOUGHTS / a little erotic FANTASY as well.. is he also against you reading a steamy romance novel ? (so they say women's porn)....how do you really feel about that.. do you find the idea of enjoying a night out seeing the Chippendales morally wrong ...that this would threaten your marriage somehow ?? 










I am just curious ...it seems when others feel strongly on these things, there is a more religious background fueling it --or they are just so in love, I've heard some women say they could never look at another man.. So it is more sinful or devotion fueled ?? 

With my own views, even I struggle where ethically some of these lines should be drawn.. I no longer call myself a christian though.. had nothing to do sexual views however... more about doctrine, I just don't buy it all (but that is another thread)...

Loved Intheory's post here...



> *Intheory said:*
> Hopefully, this is just a matter of him developing a strategy to resist "boys will be boys" peer pressure at work; and a wake-up call for him to pay more sexual attention to you -- whether that entails hormonal supplements, Viagara etc., will be up to you guys and your physician.
> 
> If not; then turning the tables is always a good idea:
> If he goes on another strip club outing; then you accept the lunch invitation from that guy at work
> If you find he is still viewing porn; make the desktop wallpaper on your computer an image of one of the sexiest guys that has ever appealed to you, eg. "Rockstar". You know, playing a guitar solo with an "O" face while shirtless. Add images of guys like this to your slide show. Leave it open/around for H to see.
> If he continues to leave you hanging sexually; purchase a dildo/vibrator (that is noticeably bigger than him). Leave it around where he will know you've been using it.
> 
> Hoping you don't have to play nasty; and communication and good will saves the day.


I may have missed it.. but how often are you having sex? Does he initiate you ? Outside of the bedroom, does he compliment and flirt , words of affirmation ? was he ever like this.. Does something feel lost ? 

On the whole testosterone thing again... are their other symptoms to suggest *low TEST* that might warrant treatment.. like brain fog, falling asleep after he comes home from work, being irritable.. besides the reduced antsy desire?


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## Catherine602

A problem for one is a problem for both. It's not the strip club but the respect partners need to have for each other. His attitude towards her will be mirrored back to him. If they were enemies and did not have to depend on each other for an exchange of satisfaction then he could tell her to "eat it". But they need each other and need to trust that the each will compromise equitably. 

If my husband went to a strip club and lied, I would be upset. Not about the strip club so much as the lie as if he were doing something salacious that he needed to hide, like a little boy. He would be a different person to me, like he can't handle me. I am not his mother but his partner. I have a right to feel what I feel and so does he. But we care about how each feels and usually, not always, find a way to compromise. The person who feels the strongest usually gets the most compromise. 

What I am saying is that we should not let ideology seep into a partnership. They don't rise to the level of defining who we are. I feel that we don't need to prove that we have mens right or women rights inside of a partnership. We should know and respect that already. 

I willingly entered into a marriage and had kids. I have more than myself and my rights to consider. I wouldn't go to watch men striping because I don't like to put my husband in a difficult position. I also want him to think well of me. If my husband needs something from me that is important to him, I go out of my way to make sure he gets it. I feel very comfortable doing that. He has done some dicey things involving drinking, his brother and men's night out. He never told me to get over it or lied no matter what my reaction was. 

My advice, from the female point of view - don't put your balls on the line for every little thing. They are too precious for that. Just face your wife, take the heat. Take care of the upset that doing stupid things bring. Be a trusted loving man who cares even if she gets upset about something that seems trivial. It is true that she will get over it, but only with your help and caring.


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## sittingonthedock

All this over 28 bucks in a strip club? My BIL BLEW three grand, showed up at 4 am pi$$ drunk, and upon further investigation SIL found 800 in cash withdrawn after leaving the club (guess what that was for). And she's STILL faking it to make it look like la familia is perfect!

True story.


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## ConanHub

Anon1111 said:


> Damn, if I came home from a business trip to this, I'd be heading straight out the door right back to the strip club!


From your posts, you come home to far worse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous

Q tip said:


> Read what you like. He's at risk for a lot of health issues.
> 
> Testosterone is not just a sex hormone. Repeat that a thousand times. Please take him to a real doc. Get informed.
> 
> What was his DHT estrodoil, free T?


1st of all....the only reason he even went to see an endocrinologist was because of MY antsy "wanting it 3 times a day" sex drive, frankly if not for that.. I wouldn't have noticed a thing !!...nor was he complaining about anything or had any concerns with his health...

He wasn't falling asleep after work, non of those symptoms they warn is causing low Test... I literally had to downplay why I even sent him there.. feeling the Doc would think I was a raging Nympho.. and maybe I needed the help!....Looking back at this, it's rather amusing ... 

My husband is fine.. this was 6 yrs ago now...he's had at least 3 physicals since then, 3 blood work ups.. I even got a Life Insurance policy for $150,000 on him till age 70 a couple months ago...hoping to get the advertised rate I applied for... they call me telling me his health was so good, he qualified for the best rate they offer...so I upped his policy to $175,000. 

It's like I said.. he was stressed at work at the time (new Boss, some co-worker issues)... then he had me attacking him for sex ... I even caused him some performance pressure.. (talk about stress all coming at you at once ... I caused some of it !)....

Last time his results were higher ...mid 500's... this is OK for men in their 50's... it may not be the ideal 600-800 or whatever you feel is what men SHOULD be.. but it's not threatening his health.. 

Gonna have to







with you on this one.


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## ConanHub

Bottom line that many are missing is this was an agreed upon boundary between OP and her H.

He crossed it and lied his butt off.

I have that same boundary in my marriage. There would be hell to pay, maybe even divorce, if either of us crossed it.

In 23 years, we have easily avoided strip clubs. Adults are suited for marriage, it requires keeping your word. Children should not marry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MLK22

Right. I've noticed a trend of a few men chiming in with their over simplified and under informed opinions which clearly reflect that they are quickly dropping in and dropping out. With their "bat**** crazy" and such. It initially annoys the **** out of me, bit I digress. I know these types of opinions are to be expected, and I will give them the same amount of thought as the amount of weight they carry with me. As for a previous post that said I still seem "fuming mad" - that is inaccurate. I have repeatedly said I get it and I forgive him. Which is not the same as "it's okay". It's not okay. That's not anger talking. It's reinforcing the boundaries which WE still seem to agree on. Also said was that I was representing myself as the "the perfect wife" as compared to his "real husband" ( which I assume implies flawed). Also, both inaccurate. I have repeatedly stated that he is an amazing man who is very good to me and I absolutely adore him. I also said "He ****ed up. I have ****ed up too." I have also admitted that I have a tendency to lose my **** - to an unfair, unapproachable level. When I said that there is nothing I would deny this man, sexually, that is an absolute fact - and he would tell you the same thing. That is not because I'm trying to be perfect - that is because I am overwhelming attracted to him. It's actually kind of ridiculous after 5 years. If he likes it -- it excites me. But I am flawed in many ways - as I have stated.


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## MLK22

"All this over 28 bucks in a strip club? My BIL BLEW three grand, showed up at 4 am pi$$ drunk, and upon further investigation SIL found 800 in cash withdrawn after leaving the club (guess what that was for). And she's STILL faking it to make it look like la familia is perfect! True story."

This actually makes my point for me. Yes, this is way worse than what I'm dealing with. And I want to address it NOW so we don't someday find ourselves in this place.


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## MLK22

"It baffles me he is so against you doing what he has done.. a night out with the girls -watching male dancers....it almost sounds he is rather controlling to YOUR THOUGHTS / a little erotic FANTASY as well.. is he also against you reading a steamy romance novel ? (so they say women's porn)....how do you really feel about that.. do you find the idea of enjoying a night out seeing the Chippendales morally wrong ...that this would threaten your marriage somehow ?? I am just curious ...it seems when others feel strongly on these things, there is a more religious background fueling it --or they are just so in love, I've heard some women say they could never look at another man.. So it is more sinful or devotion fueled ?? "

Definitely not religious, nor a moral judgement. For me (the way I feel about him going) I'm just so crazy about him and I can't bear the thought of being excluded from his fantasies. I want to share this part of him, always. For him I think it is more of a history thing. He has had some pretty awful experiences in past relationships and struggles with trust issues. (We both come with our mental baggage.) He has a hard time with me going out with the girls at all. He doesn't try to forbid it or anything, but his grumpy mood the day of makes it very clear he's feeling insecure. Books, movies - we've even shared porn - it's all good. It's the flesh and blood realm we both have an issue with. Particularly if the other is not present. I'm totally down to go to a strip club with him in fact, we have been discussing it. I've never been, so I'm curious. As far as male strip clubs - I'm really not all that interested. It always seemed sort of comical to me. The few male strippers I've seen at bachelorette parties were kind of goofy. What is sexy about a man to me is very different than what is sexy about a woman. A woman dancing - even clothed - can be pretty hot. Men -- it takes a certain kind of man to look sexy on the dance floor.... (Mmmmm... Johnny Castle...)

In answer to your other question- yes, he knows I'm posting. He's totally fine with it (as it is completely anonymous).


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## SimplyAmorous

> *MLK22 said* ;* I have also admitted that I have a tendency to lose my **** - to an unfair, unapproachable level. When I said that there is nothing I would deny this man, sexually, that is an absolute fact - and he would tell you the same thing. That is not because I'm trying to be perfect - that is because I am overwhelming attracted to him. It's actually kind of ridiculous after 5 years. If he likes it -- it excites me. But I am flawed in many ways - as I have stated*.


 I feel this IS very helpful that you can acknowledge your own flaws in relation to him... if you both show humility in these ways.. it will be easier to open up to each other....also being accountable to each other..but I suspect you will have to work on being a little more *approachable* ..... while he works on being more *forthcoming* ...

I am guessing you have a personality more like MINE.. and your H is more like MY husband... it just sounds from the way I read your posts.. temperament wise anyway.. My H does NOT like conflict at all.. I'm not an avoider but one who tackles the problem head on busting it open... I will confront.. .

Opposites can be very good for each other --when working together...and understanding the weaknesses of each other -not exasperating them but doing all we can to encourage harmony...trusting you both want the same things in life, each other above all.. is the foundation you need to build upon....I hope you will find this again.. even after this happening...  



ConanHub said:


> Bottom line that many are missing is this was an agreed upon boundary between OP and her H.
> 
> He crossed it and lied his butt off.
> 
> I have that same boundary in my marriage. There would be hell to pay, maybe even divorce, if either of us crossed it.
> 
> In 23 years, we have easily avoided strip clubs. Adults are suited for marriage, it requires keeping your word. Children should not marry.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Here is what I would like to understand from those who feel as strongly as you on this.. so you have never made a mistake.. maybe it wasn't a LIE.. maybe it was something else that hurt or wounded in a deep way.... 

WHAT HELL IS HE DESERVING OF ...what must he be put through to atone for his offense? At some point, if they want to get back to loving.. it will require some understanding of the motivations ...and forgiving for not being a perfect human being...

By all means if she can not trust him to have her best interests at heart...after opening this up ...weeding through her hurt, his remorse... if she's still worried he will continue to lie, if they can not get past this.. she will need to leave him....


----------



## MLK22

Simply Amorous, 
Your relationship, the personality types, describe us to a T. And so very much of what you have said has really resonated with me. Your input has been invaluable. 

I do think within a marriage we have to respect each other's boundaries. My initial reaction was clouded by my preexisting insecurities coupled with the multiple lies he told to cover. I felt as though he was lying because there was something bigger to cover up -- and I felt panicked. What some folks here can't seem to reconcile is that it is possible to empathize with his position, take his explanation at face value and forgive him - but still not give him a pass. He doesn't get a pass. Dishonesty, particularly in regards money or fidelity (not to call this infidelity, just can't think of a better term) is a bad habit to start. And my over reaction to the situation does not make the initial offense null and void. 

But trust me when I say he's forgiven. We have had a wonderful evening tonight


----------



## ConanHub

SA. I was stating my situation to show that there are boundaries similar, if not harder, than OPs.

I was not suggesting her husband pay any more "hell" than she has already required.

No, I have never "mistakenly" wandered into a strip club and neither has my wife. Mrs. Conan and I are both very hot blooded, possessive of each other and jealous of our intimacy and romance.

We aren't in prison with each other but we have a lot of trust and we take that confidence in each other seriously.

Going to a strip club is not a mistake but a choice. So is lying about it.

I think OP has a good handle on it and I hope her H learned his lesson here. I also hope they improve their intimacy as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jaquen

I wouldn't have lied personally; if I want to go to a strip club, I'm going to a strip club. But considering your insecurities, and the massive meltdown you had when you found out, I definitely can see why he, and many, men would lie.

Here's the thing though, he's wrong because he sold you the idea that he wasn't a strip club kind of guy, and him going is a direct violation of the kind of man he sold himself to be. I can see why you'd be pissed since you both agreed these types of things were off limits.

Please get your insecurities in check though. Those can be detrimental to a marriage because they're detrimental to the psyche. Body insecurities magnify so many problems, and often make mountains out of molehills. Lower self esteem leads to a narcissistic perspective, such as in the case where you assume your husband can't see a "perfect" stripper's body and still love, adore and be attracted to yours. Even his lower libidio might not have anything to do with how attractive you are. Perhaps it does, but that's far from a guarantee. If we're talking honesty here maybe you should ask him flat out if your weight gain has caused him to want you less.

Also do you have a habit of constantly complaining about your weight problem and other perceived body problems? That can be a massive turn off for some people. 

What about nagging? Do you tend to ride him, no pun intended, when he's done something you think is wrong? Let me tell you that nagging, and mothering, is about the biggest turn off for me. Any chance some of that is happening? I ask because I see some of that in your reaction to the strip club.


----------



## ConanHub

jaquen said:


> I wouldn't have lied personally; if I want to go to a strip club, I'm going to a strip club. But considering your insecurities, and the massive meltdown you had when you found out, I definitely can see why he, and many, men would lie.
> 
> Here's the thing though, he's wrong because he sold you the idea that he wasn't a strip club kind of guy, and him going is a direct violation of the kind of man he sold himself to be. I can see why you'd be pissed since you both agreed these types of things were off limits.
> 
> Please get your insecurities in check though. Those can be detrimental to a marriage because they're detrimental to the psyche. Body insecurities magnify so many problems, and often make mountains out of molehills. Lower self esteem leads to a narcissistic perspective, such as in the case where you assume your husband can't see a "perfect" stripper's body and still love, adore and be attracted to yours. Even his lower libidio might not have anything to do with how attractive you are. Perhaps it does, but that's far from a guarantee. If we're talking honesty here maybe you should ask him flat out if your weight gain has caused him to want you less.
> 
> Also do you have a habit of constantly complaining about your weight problem and other perceived body problems? That can be a massive turn off for some people.
> 
> What about nagging? Do you tend to ride him, no pun intended, when he's done something you think is wrong? Let me tell you that nagging, and mothering, is about the biggest turn off for me. Any chance some of that is happening? I ask because I see some of that in your reaction to the strip club.


Oy!!! Most of your questions have already been answered..... BTW. Would you be pissed if your wife slowed way down on the sex then broke an agreed upon sexual boundary and then lied her butt off about it?

If not, preach on....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MLK22

"I wouldn't have lied personally; if I want to go to a strip club, I'm going to a strip club."

Wow. There's really nothing in my life that I simply say "If I want to do it, I'm doing it". For me, that's not the way marriage works. He wouldn't want it that way either.

I have outright discussed my weight gain with him. I am a very direct person - and I believe in getting it all out there. He assures me that, not only does it not bother him, but he actually kind of likes it (already large boobs now larger, non existant butt now ... Existant). I buy that to a degree, but to a degree I know he is just being kind to my heart. 

I don't think I'm a nagger. That's not to say I never nag - I'm not perfect, I get *****y and can harp from time to time. But he doesn't usually give me much to complain about. 

I am a bit preoccupied with my weight gain. But the sexual issues (which really are mostly frequency) precedes this particular weight gain. He does say he misses when I entered a room with confidence and commanded attention. I've struggled with finding that for a while. 

Don't mistake my over reacting to this as a representation of our entire relationship. This is a sore spot for me. I've gone a long time (pre weight gain) with feekingche is not as interested as I would like him to be. So for him to cross this mutual boundary and lie -- truly had me panicked as to what was really happening.


----------



## jaquen

ConanHub said:


> Oy!!! Most of your questions have already been answered..... BTW.


Forgive me, I haven't been living in this thread the last few days the way you apparently have. The OP, which you are not, is free to skip right on past my questions if they've been answered already.





ConanHub said:


> would you be pissed if your wife slowed way down on the sex then broke an agreed upon sexual boundary and then lied her butt off about it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Let me quote myself, since in all your oy veying you don't seem to actually be processing what I wrote:

"Here's the thing though, he's wrong because he sold you the idea that he wasn't a strip club kind of guy, and him going is a direct violation of the kind of man he sold himself to be. *I can see why you'd be pissed *since you both agreed these types of things were off limits."

Clearly I already understand, and empathize, with why she'd be pissed. Making your challenge all the more irrelvant.


----------



## MLK22

ConanHub said:


> Oy!!! Most of your questions have already been answered..... BTW. Would you be pissed if your wife slowed way down on the sex then broke an agreed upon sexual boundary and then lied her butt off about it?
> 
> If not, preach on....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE
> 
> Perfect summary.


----------



## BucksBunny

Ok Rebuild venting is fine, sure Many will say same about me it happens hey we are all flesh and blood. You have had much different opinion on from all angles on thread. Some pro some anti but end of day it’s your own personal boundary with your H. nothing else yes or no or maybe only things you need to get straigh if this is a NO well say it. Don’t do that agsain it hurts me. He got history?

If not a $28 tab for a round of drinks in a club with a crowd, a wife going through every transaction on card and Goggling maps and working out travel time as a partner I would be concerned about. So if he has no history I would say you’re being really rough on him. I have an Iphone and have GPS fix switched on all the time my husband can ping me any time I will be where I said I will be. He never has.

So sorry not being harsh all I get so far is H was away and planned for work, you knew about it, boys will be boys and they ended up in a club where lady’s take there cloths off (ok can offend some) he has a small bar tab on his card, you think he should not have waited for 10mins for a cab or chatted with doorman or just shot the breeze with a stranger. 

If there is no other bad signs or he has no history he is just being one of the boy’s if it annoys you call it say don’t do it again.

Please don’t get hung up on age or attractive he came home to you. All you need to know my husband must meet lots of girls every day sure lots of them are younger and prettier than me but the trust and faith he comes home to me. Get off that road you can beat your self into ground thinking like that you will not be in a good place 

Forgive me if I am wrong but sounds like a lot deeper things going on at home than some hottie waved her boobies in his face.

Just my opinion.


----------



## jaquen

MLK22 said:


> "I wouldn't have lied personally; if I want to go to a strip club, I'm going to a strip club."
> 
> Wow. There's really nothing in my life that I simply say "If I want to do it, I'm doing it". For me, that's not the way marriage works. He wouldn't want it that way either.


I respect that. All marriages are different. My wife and I have a lot of freedom in our marriage, which is mutually agreed upon. I'm not a strip club guy, but she knows that if I wanted to go there'd be no reason for me to lie. And I wouldn't even if there was. What matters, however, is that you're both on the same page, which it sounds like you are. Which is why I totally understand why you'd be upset. It is a violation, especially since you said earlier in the thread (I'm not even halfway caught up) that he'd have a problem with you going to a male revue. The hypocrisy alone is infuriating. 



MLK22 said:


> I am a bit preoccupied with my weight gain. But the sexual issues (which really are mostly frequency) precedes this particular weight gain. He does say he misses when I entered a room with confidence and commanded attention. I've struggled with finding that for a while.


I warned you about the insecurity because I know it all too well, from painful personal experience. I had some severe body image issues, stemming from childhood obesity, that have taken years, and a ton of self work, to get through. I know how detrimental it can be on the mind, and as a result, on your relationships. I'm thankful to God everyday that I am with the best woman in the world, who knows me, understand me, and accepts me, even when I have trouble accepting all of myself.

I will say that my wife has been dealing with insecurities too over some weight gain. And it's caused issues in our sex life to the degree that she's not as expressive, open and bold sexually as she once was. We still have sex several times a week, and it's damn good, frequency isn't our issue. But that lack of confidence and boldness has changed things, and I do miss it. It's taken some of the sexual charge down for me.

A lot of times the insecurities hurt the sexual relationship not because of the perceived physical flaw, but because your behavior changes based on it. And yes, that can affect a partner's level of attraction.


----------



## ConanHub

jaquen said:


> Forgive me, I haven't been living in this thread the last few days the way you apparently have. The OP, which you are not, is free to skip right on past my questions if they've been answered already.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let me quote myself, since in all your oy veying you don't' seem to actually be processing what I wrote:
> 
> "Here's the thing though, he's wrong because he sold you the idea that he wasn't a strip club kind of guy, and him going is a direct violation of the kind of man he sold himself to be. *I can see why you'd be pissed *since you both agreed these types of things were off limits."
> 
> Clearly I already understand, and empathize, with why she'd be pissed. Making your challenge all the more irrelvant.


Since you couldn't bother to check the thread before commenting, most of your post was irrelevant and directed at criticizing the OP. BTW, I think your insight on insecurity is very good. Cheers!&#55357;&#56833;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jaquen

ConanHub said:


> Since you couldn't bother to check the thread before commenting, most of your post was irrelevant and directed at criticizing the OP.


I'm not going to spend hours going through 12 pages of a thread just to respond to an OP. If that's your thing, more power to you. It ain't that deep for me dude.

And having read a couple more pages I still think the OP is up for criticism. 



ConanHub said:


> BTW, I think your insight on insecurity is very good. Cheers!��
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks. I think insecurity is one of those pervasive silent relationship killers that doesn't incredibly insidious, and doesn't get nearly enough attention.


----------



## Satya

MLK, the only observation I wish to make after reading through your thread is that you make quite a few assertions about your husband and his feelings. We all fall into a bit of a trap when only one party of a 2-party issue is present. There is a side that can only be expressed through your voice, which throughout has been quite passionate and as you commented, misinterpreted as even mad. 

I ask you to consider inviting your husband to the thread, so that you both can benefit from each side being heard. Your audience can have a better understanding and (ideally) offer better quality support with a focus on the dynamics between you and your spouse.


----------



## Q tip

SimplyAmorous said:


> 1st of all....the only reason he even went to see an endocrinologist was because of MY antsy "wanting it 3 times a day" sex drive, frankly if not for that.. I wouldn't have noticed a thing !!...nor was he complaining about anything or had any concerns with his health...
> 
> He wasn't falling asleep after work, non of those symptoms they warn is causing low Test... I literally had to downplay why I even sent him there.. feeling the Doc would think I was a raging Nympho.. and maybe I needed the help!....Looking back at this, it's rather amusing ...
> 
> My husband is fine.. this was 6 yrs ago now...he's had at least 3 physicals since then, 3 blood work ups.. I even got a Life Insurance policy for $150,000 on him till age 70 a couple months ago...hoping to get the advertised rate I applied for... they call me telling me his health was so good, he qualified for the best rate they offer...so I upped his policy to $175,000.
> 
> It's like I said.. he was stressed at work at the time (new Boss, some co-worker issues)... then he had me attacking him for sex ... I even caused him some performance pressure.. (talk about stress all coming at you at once ... I caused some of it !)....
> 
> Last time his results were higher ...mid 500's... this is OK for men in their 50's... it may not be the ideal 600-800 or whatever you feel is what men SHOULD be.. but it's not threatening his health..
> 
> Gonna have to
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> with you on this one.


My opinion is also based on research. Actual facts from medical researchers. I don't FEEL what it should be. It IS what it should be. The books you have read MUST have noticed the slow decline in levels over the past 75 years and why. If not, find better written and researched work.

I won't argue about your H health. That's up to you and him. I respect that. I've broken out of the human habit of trying to find data and analysis that supports my view or bias. I search for data, fact and truth. That's how it is obvious to me the anti-T commercials and lawyer crap is all false. Six sigma set me free. 

Look at the health data researched and made public - and locate any man in the study with Total T 600 and above who died or has related health issues. In this case, it's what is not in the study that's interesting to me. The studies are flawed in several ways. But it does prove health issues with lower than 550 levels.

Check you H Estrodoil levels too. Above or below 20-30 range is very bad for men. Strokes... Estrogen is a hormone of life and a hormone of death. Guess what happens to T in the body. Can turn to E or DHT. What are those levels.

Call Life Extension Foundation in Florida and talk with a doctor and read up on their research. Then do what I do, read the hundreds of referenced footnotes they provide in the their research, data and findings. Will take you a while but is a wake up call to bias.

Btw, Free T is the more important number. Do you know what Total T is made up of? What about SHBG T levels. How is that calculated. Point is, docs know next to nothing. If your endo is not treating levels under 700-900, keep looking around. Or be satisfied with them. I won't argue, just stand with facts.


...and Life Insurance. Great you got the coverage you want. Is it permanent insurance or term. The inside joke on term insurance is it hardly ever pays out. A real profit item. Not on the individual basis, but term life overall. But it's good he has it. They calculate he's healthier than average and up the rates as much as they can for you. So it's good for you. But likely they'll never pay out for the same reason. And luckily, they know nothing about T if they do pay out.

Repeat after me: "Testosterone is not just a sex hormone..."


----------



## MLK22

I would LOVE to get my H on here. I don't think he will do it, but I'll give it a go. He's not one for talking about feelings and such. I mean, this happened last Wednesday, and it took him till Tuesday of this week to finally open up. And believe me - I wasn't all indignant and outwardly angry the whole time. I begged him to talk to me, openly.... Took him a long time to get there.


----------



## Q tip

MLK22 said:


> I would LOVE to get my H on here. I don't think he will do it, but I'll give it a go. He's not one for talking about feelings and such. I mean, this happened last Wednesday, and it took him till Tuesday of this week to finally open up. And believe me - I wasn't all indignant and outwardly angry the whole time. I begged him to talk to me, openly.... Took him a long time to get there.


Communication. 

Otherwise you're just two ships passing in the night.

Encourage him to talk.


----------



## anonmd

MLK22 said:


> Right. I've noticed a trend of a few men chiming in with their over simplified and under informed opinions which clearly reflect that they are quickly dropping in and dropping out. With their "bat**** crazy" and such. It initially annoys the **** out of me, bit I digress. I know these types of opinions are to be expected, and I will give them the same amount of thought as the amount of weight they carry with me. As for a previous post that said I still seem "fuming mad" - that is inaccurate. I have repeatedly said I get it and I forgive him. Which is not the same as "it's okay". It's not okay.


Let's clear up a few things

I am not an admin. 

You asked for a male perspective in your first post. In your first post you were fuming mad and irrational, later you recognize that you can be unapproachable. You may not like the term but the term I used fits at least initially. Good on you for at least recognizing your unapproachablity.

I have not read every post. I read the first 3 or 4 pages then skipped forward some, read the last and commented. Those first 4 pages were plenty to put a visual in my head, that visual is you standing with a megaphone blasting opinions and instructions in your hubby's ear. I've come back a time or two and read 2 pages, uncovered the megaphone so to speak. Hopefully your interactions with your husband are not actually as one sided as they come off here. For me, this would be unsustainable over decades but maybe it works for you two. 

My point, when you discussed these issues generally before the blowout and you "agreed" as you say you did. Was it an honest and gentle exchange of ideas that you agreed upon or was it more you pontificating on how it should be and him sheepishly agreeing? For that matter, did you brow beat him in to submission...


----------



## Cletus

MLK22 said:


> Right. I've noticed a trend of a few men chiming in with their over simplified and under informed opinions which clearly reflect that they are quickly dropping in and dropping out.


I was going to make a comment about how your tone in this conversation felt very angry and rigid - which is your right, of course. Perhaps I should add dismissive to the list.

There are plenty of folks out there who think that a $28 trip to a strip club and then hiding it from your wife to avoid a runaway chain reaction isn't the end of the world nor a topic requiring a dozen pages of navel gazing to untangle, even if it's not the most upstanding act. You don't have to agree with them, but dismiss them at your own peril.

Because from here it sure looks like you're might be married to one of them.


----------



## Q tip

$28 is like 3 beers in these places, he didn't even get drunk and do something stupid other than not tell you beforehand. So take a look at what did not happen. Don't just focus on the thing that really pisses you off.

If he was up to no good would he leave a paper trail? Geeze...

I think your H is a good man. You, me and us all make mistakes. In the grand scheme, it was not a biggie. Was this a symptom of other frustrations? Maybe. Through post #186, I think not. 

Nothing out of the ordinary. He needs to communicate more, you probably could listen a bit more. And definitely have lots more sex. Lots! Enjoy each other. Go out on date nights. Grab a vacation or even long weekends out to a cozy place. Do a movie at a shopping center instead of heading home at 7:00pm.

That's my - to be dismissed under informed asked for guy's opinion anyway.

Reading: His needs, Her needs.


----------



## Yeswecan

MLK22 said:


> I would LOVE to get my H on here. I don't think he will do it, but I'll give it a go. He's not one for talking about feelings and such. I mean, this happened last Wednesday, and it took him till Tuesday of this week to finally open up. And believe me - I wasn't all indignant and outwardly angry the whole time. I begged him to talk to me, openly.... Took him a long time to get there.


Is this still going on? Sheesh...I thought this was now put in the lesson book.

What was his reason for clamming up?


----------



## Q tip

Cletus said:


> I was going to make a comment about how your tone in this conversation felt very angry and rigid - which is your right, of course. Perhaps I should add dismissive to the list.
> 
> There are plenty of folks out there who think that a $28 trip to a strip club and then hiding it from your wife to avoid a runaway chain reaction isn't the end of the world nor a topic requiring a dozen pages of navel gazing to untangle, even if it's not the most upstanding act. You don't have to agree with them, but dismiss them at your own peril.
> 
> Because from here it sure looks like you're might be married to one of them.


:iagree: Very clever. I had to read this twice to get it (because I am one of the dim, uninformed, unlightened dudes). Very clever. Gotta keep eyes on Cletus.


----------



## John Lee

I guess the one final point I want to raise is this: look at how much energy you are expending in this thread, trying to convince everyone you are right on every point long after the issue seems to be resolved. Now imagine if you spent more of that energy directly working on things with your husband instead.


----------



## Cobalt

MLK22 said:


> A little back story -- I am (still) madly, crazy, wildly in love with my husband of 5 years He has has always treated me like a queen. He takes really good care of me, and he's really the first man I've every allowed to do that. I have always had an issue with regards to sex though. I mean, it is AMAZING. But it is not as frequent as I would like, which has left me feeling insecure. My experience in past relationships has always been that men are relentless about it - now it feels the tables have turned. --- SO, a business trip came up last week that his office goes on annually. This was to be his first time going due to a recent promotion. It's a group of men, and I assumed while they were there, they'd go out for dinner, drinks - probably hit a bar or two. No big deal. In the morning after said night out, I checked the account - to see how much money he spent. There was a $28.00 charge for a strip club. Without mentioning the charge, I texted him and confronted him. He tells me he "stayed in the room and drank with the other good boys". (Lie #1) Finally having no choice but to come clean, he tells me he pretty much had no choice but to go (laughable). Said they were walking (in negative temps) from bar to bar and stumbled upon it, and the other guys wanted to go in. "What was I supposed to do? Stay outside in the cold alone?" YES. But, okay -- he must've forgotten who I am. I google mapped the distance from the hotel to the strip club. 2 HOUR walk, 15 minute drive. He says "that's wrong". I CALL THE STRIP CLUB, on speaker phone, ask the lovely lady who answers how far they are from the hotel. She says, "About a 15 minute drive." I say, "But you can't walk there from the hotel?" She says, "Oh no." (LIE #2) Husband claims he doesn't ever remember getting into a car. Must've been really drunk, he says. Says they sat in a table in the back, had 2 beers and no direct interaction with the ladies. He can remember all that, but can't remember a 15 min car ride there and back? How am I to know what really happened when he is obviously incapable of telling the truth even when he is directly confronted with evidence? My imagination is running wild. I've heard a lot of those places can offer more than visuals... NOW, I'm left feeling heart broken and confused. He always acted as if he thought so low of married men who did things like this. Do I even know him? I am 40, I have had 3 kids - my body is far from perfect. How am I supposed to ever feel comfortable taking my clothes off with him again? He has now set the bar so I high I can't possible reach it. I've never felt so insecure in my life. What is to happen next year when this trip comes around again? Or other trips? How am I supposed to sit at company parties and chat with the other wives knowing that they have been made fools of - just like me - except they don't know? I am SICK about this. I am obsessing... WHAT REALLY HAPPENED?? I am seeking out input and advice here because the people closest to me are too invested and can't really give unbiased input. I thought of posting this in the women's only section, but I really want the male perspective too. I have male friends, but I kind of feel like their advice comes with their own agenda, and my dad has been gone for 14 years. Help out here.... I can't think straight...


Relax. The strip club is the safest place for a guy like him. The strippers don't want him. They are just using him and his friends as their personal ATM machine.

Your husband has the opportunity to look at porn 24/7. There's really nothing you can do about it except maybe have an honest discussion without being too panicked, needy or nagging. He's probably just horny. As long as you're not holding out on him, you guys will be fine. All guys think about his how a woman looks naked but it doesn't have to affect anything that's going on at home. Unless he's not getting sex. That's important. 

good luck!


----------



## MLK22

anonmd said:


> Let's clear up a few things
> 
> I am not an admin.
> 
> You asked for a male perspective in your first post. In your first post you were fuming mad and irrational, later you recognize that you can be unapproachable. You may not like the term but the term I used fits at least initially. Good on you for at least recognizing your unapproachablity.
> 
> I have not read every post. I read the first 3 or 4 pages then skipped forward some, read the last and commented. Those first 4 pages were plenty to put a visual in my head, that visual is you standing with a megaphone blasting opinions and instructions in your hubby's ear. I've come back a time or two and read 2 pages, uncovered the megaphone so to speak. Hopefully your interactions with your husband are not actually as one sided as they come off here. For me, this would be unsustainable over decades but maybe it works for you two.
> 
> *My point, when you discussed these issues generally before the blowout and you "agreed" as you say you did. Was it an honest and gentle exchange of ideas that you agreed upon or was it more you pontificating on how it should be and him sheepishly agreeing? For that matter, did you brow beat him in to submission...*


I realize that this thread has runaway with itself, and such, not all posts have been read. I know there are many men - and many women for that matter, who think this sort of thing is no big deal. WE are not that couple. Not because I dictate it to be that way. At risk of repeating myself, I will again say -- he does NOT want me going to a strip club. He has to fight his own crazy down when I just go out with my girlfriends because he hates knowing that people will hit on me or try to buy me drinks. I have not put him in a cage here. We have pretty clear boundaries in our marriage - that have been set by BOTH of us. I realize not all men are this way. But I assure he is. After this, I suggested that I have a night out with my GF's and we hit a strip club. He is not hearing it. And even though I was angry, I respected that. Because I'm not the lash out and retaliate type.


----------



## MLK22

Q tip said:


> $28 is like 3 beers in these places, *he didn't even get drunk* and do something stupid other than not tell you beforehand. So take a look at what did not happen. Don't just focus on the thing that really pisses you off.
> 
> *If he was up to no good would he leave a paper trail? Geeze...*
> 
> *I think your H is a good man. * You, me and us all make mistakes. In the grand scheme, it was not a biggie. Was this a symptom of other frustrations? Maybe. Through post #186, I think not.
> 
> Nothing out of the ordinary. He needs to communicate more, you probably could listen a bit more. *And definitely have lots more sex. Lots! * Enjoy each other. Go out on date nights. Grab a vacation or even long weekends out to a cozy place. Do a movie at a shopping center instead of heading home at 7:00pm.
> 
> *That's my - to be dismissed under informed asked for guy's opinion anyway.*
> 
> Reading: His needs, Her needs.



He was drunk before he got to the strip club. I know because he texted me nonstop all night, and the progression of his texts were... well -- drunk. Which I expected and took no issue with.

Paper trail: Again, drunk. Forgot he even did it. Which is why he denied it when I texted him and confronted him about it.

You're right, he is a very good man.

Sex: Part of the problem. I have always wanted more.

To be dismissed male opinion: I didn't mean to say that I wasn't interested in male opinions. My point was that I am not interested in the kinds of opinions (male or female) that say things like - I'm caging him, or it's no big deal -- it's just a guy thing -- and the reason is because he is very FIRM on the fact that he does not want ME behaving that way.


----------



## DoF

Cobalt said:


> Relax. The strip club is the safest place for a guy like him. The strippers don't want him. They are just using him and his friends as their personal ATM machine.
> 
> Your husband has the opportunity to look at porn 24/7. There's really nothing you can do about it except maybe have an honest discussion without being too panicked, needy or nagging. He's probably just horny. As long as you're not holding out on him, you guys will be fine. All guys think about his how a woman looks naked but it doesn't have to affect anything that's going on at home. Unless he's not getting sex. That's important.
> 
> good luck!


All great points.

Best case scenerio, he won't go to strip joints or look at porn.....but his mind will still show him things that "you don't want him to see".

It's ok OP, your only concern is him not ACTING on anything that will mean cheating in your relationship.

Another example is dreams. What if he has a dream of cheating, being with other women or even cheating. 

It's out of his control, he can't steer or program his dreams.

Human nature.


----------



## DoF

MLK22 said:


> Sex: Part of the problem. I have always wanted more.


This is you issue #1. Make sure this gets addressed, or YOU will be the one either leaving or straying........IN TIME.

Intimacy is a foundation of successful relationships/marriages. Without it.......forget it.


----------



## MLK22

Cletus said:


> I was going to make a comment about how your tone in this conversation felt very angry and rigid - which is your right, of course. Perhaps I should add dismissive to the list.
> 
> There are plenty of folks out there who think that a $28 trip to a strip club and then hiding it from your wife to avoid a runaway chain reaction isn't the end of the world nor a topic requiring a dozen pages of navel gazing to untangle, even if it's not the most upstanding act. *You don't have to agree with them, but dismiss them at your own peril.
> 
> Because from here it sure looks like you're might be married to one of them.*


My reaction was quite strong, for sure, due to preexisting issues. I made a snap judgement without considering all the factors or giving him the benefit of the doubt. That being said -

I'm definitely not married to one of them, as I can assure you - he would have lost his MIND if I had gone to a strip club, then lied, then lied again. 

Please realize that all relationships are different. What you think is no big deal might be a big deal to another man. Trust me - my husband has a tendency to get very jealous.


----------



## MLK22

John Lee said:


> I guess the one final point I want to raise is this: look at how much energy you are expending in this thread, trying to convince everyone you are right on every point long after the issue seems to be resolved. Now imagine if you spent more of that energy directly working on things with your husband instead.


This is so true. I'm a debater. I get lost in it. 

I will say this, if he had talked to me - if he had told me this was happening and he felt some boys club pressure to go - I probably would have been annoyed - but I would have understood.

I'm not all rigid, or frigid or whatever. I'm not ultra religious or judgmental. I'm not preaching from a soapbox here. I just want honesty and communication. And I don't want to be shut out of his desires and fantasies. 

Overall, I'm really glad I came here. It helped me process a bit and gain some perspective. I'm also glad that a mirror was held up and the severity of my reaction was pointed out to me. Helps me understand more why he lied, instead of thinking that he was hiding something bigger - some major betrayal. 

Anyway, you're right, the continued conversation really is a mute point. I think he and I have turned a long overdue corner.


----------



## MLK22

Cobalt said:


> Relax. The strip club is the safest place for a guy like him. The strippers don't want him. They are just using him and his friends as their personal ATM machine.
> 
> Your husband has the opportunity to look at porn 24/7. There's really nothing you can do about it except maybe have an honest discussion without being too panicked, needy or nagging. * He's probably just horny. As long as you're not holding out on him, you guys will be fine. All guys think about his how a woman looks naked but it doesn't have to affect anything that's going on at home. Unless he's not getting sex. That's important. *
> 
> good luck!


There's tons and tons of posts, I know, so I completely understand how you missed this point...

(Prefacing with - I AM NOT PERFECT, so I don't get attacked for pretending to be)... I am literally at his beckon call. I am madly in love with this man and more sexually attracted to him than I ever have been to anyone in my life. I deny him not. a. thing. In fact, part of my issue with this happening is that I feel somewhat neglected in that department. Not in quality, but in frequency. Which is why I panicked... which is why I initially thought that this made it abundantly clear that the problem was that he didn't desire ME...

$28 really is no big deal -- but between us we have 6 kids -- he can't AFFORD to be an ATM for anyone or anything! lol


----------



## ConanHub

So did you two get your boundaries hammered out?

Just curious. What if the situation were reversed? Your Hs reaction?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MLK22

ConanHub said:


> So did you two get your boundaries hammered out?
> 
> Just curious. What if the situation were reversed? Your Hs reaction?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He thoroughly admits that his reaction would have been every bit as strong. Minus the tears, likely. I think we are as clear on boundaries as we have ever been. I don't think it was ever a gray area. I think he found himself in an uncomfortable situation (I'm sure it wasn't ALL uncomfortable, lol) and handled it wrong. I think what we need to do now is to discuss ways he can get out of that kind of situation in the future without feeling emasculated and without hurting his wife.


----------



## Cobalt

MLK22 said:


> There's tons and tons of posts, I know, so I completely understand how you missed this point...
> 
> (Prefacing with - I AM NOT PERFECT, so I don't get attacked for pretending to be)... I am literally at his beckon call. I am madly in love with this man and more sexually attracted to him than I ever have been to anyone in my life. I deny him not. a. thing. In fact, part of my issue with this happening is that I feel somewhat neglected in that department. Not in quality, but in frequency. Which is why I panicked... which is why I initially thought that this made it abundantly clear that the problem was that he didn't desire ME...
> 
> $28 really is no big deal -- but between us we have 6 kids -- he can't AFFORD to be an ATM for anyone or anything! lol


I only read the first post 

You sound great! I wish my wife had your attitude!


----------



## SimplyAmorous

MLK22 said:


> Definitely not religious, nor a moral judgement. For me (the way I feel about him going) I'm just so crazy about him and I can't bear the thought of being excluded from his fantasies. I want to share this part of him, always. *For him I think it is more of a history thing. He has had some pretty awful experiences in past relationships and struggles with trust issues. (We both come with our mental baggage.) He has a hard time with me going out with the girls at all. He doesn't try to forbid it or anything, but his grumpy mood the day of makes it very clear he's feeling insecure.*


 Makes sense.. the nature of our histories seem to have a large hold on our psyche ..even if who we are with now is nothing like those who were before...



> *As far as male strip clubs - I'm really not all that interested. It always seemed sort of comical to me. The few male strippers I've seen at bachelorette parties were kind of goofy. *What is sexy about a man to me is very different than what is sexy about a woman. A woman dancing - even clothed - can be pretty hot. Men -- it takes a certain kind of man to look sexy on the dance floor.... (Mmmmm... Johnny Castle...)


 Sounds you have experienced LOTS more over myself...never been to a party like that... I've only been to 1 Chippendales outing... they were a knock off group... although I enjoyed the excitement..the dancing.... I felt they were all too muscular - I go more for lanky men.. Husband asked me what I thought when I got home.. I told him they were too beefy .....he wasn't surprised, even expected I would say that.. ..still I'd happily go again.. Sure beats a Cooking show -out with the GF's !! 

When I compared the 2 experiences.. I had my mouth hanging open







....when these guys came into the audience... wild women screaming , clawing /reaching for them.... my GF grabbed my hand & made me touch one of their chests... I wanted to crawl under a rock.. my other GF went up on stage.. I looked around watching these guys picking up the girls rocking them back & forth... never seen anything like it.. 

The Men's club was WAY MORE CALM... the guys would be thrown out if they even touched the girl...guys were calm , cool, collected... some were so involved with their friends, they might not even be watching the stripper dance ! Whole different atmosphere altogether. 



MLK22 said:


> Simply Amorous,
> Your relationship, the personality types, describe us to a T. And so very much of what you have said has really resonated with me. Your input has been invaluable.
> 
> I do think within a marriage we have to respect each other's boundaries. My initial reaction was clouded by my preexisting insecurities coupled with the multiple lies he told to cover. I felt as though he was lying because there was something bigger to cover up -- and I felt panicked. What some folks here can't seem to reconcile is that it is possible to empathize with his position, take his explanation at face value and forgive him - but still not give him a pass. He doesn't get a pass. Dishonesty, particularly in regards money or fidelity (not to call this infidelity, just can't think of a better term) is a bad habit to start. And my over reaction to the situation does not make the initial offense null and void.
> 
> But trust me when I say he's forgiven. We have had a wonderful evening tonight


 When I speak about transparency...and going forth ..it's not to suggest this was OK... forgiveness also doesn't always come easy & quickly.. it takes some time to get there...your getting it all out here.. even with what you see as Un welcomed views. .it's just because we suspect your husband is hiding more than he is letting on being faced with your stronger personality.. that's all.. I do understand this..and can resonate with what I hear in their posts as well.. 

IF all is good at home now.. just take it with a grain of salt.. though it would be great to hear these things in his own words... 

Walking in this forgiveness ...being careful to not rehash unnecessarily ...making him feel like this







.. being reminded of how bad his actions was...invoking his shame..I don't think this will be taking a step forward .. is all. .




> *Conanhub said*: No, I have never "mistakenly" wandered into a strip club and neither has my wife. Mrs. Conan and I are both very hot blooded, possessive of each other and jealous of our intimacy and romance.
> 
> We aren't in prison with each other but we have a lot of trust and we take that confidence in each other seriously.
> 
> Going to a strip club is not a mistake but a choice. So is lying about it.


 I am not referring to you ever having made this mistake at all... I am referring to -have you NEVER fcked up with your wife since you have been married and hurt her?? .. just because you have not lied (Neither have I...though I did hide something once.. for a total of 3 days -where my conscience was bothering me.. I did cross a line.. where I KNEW it wasn't OK...and I confessed ... my motivations all laid bare to him ..he ended up laughing about it as I poured my heart out.. as he felt my authenticity in that.. God I LOVE that man! and now we can both laugh about it! 

Now there is some approachable-ness !..He doesn't expect me to always be PERFECT but I am still loved for who I am , and even my weaknesses in a moment.. or stupidity. 

I am trying to compare other sins.. for instance.... I have hurt my H in other ways ....that spanned years.. where he felt LESS LOVED BY ME..... scheduling sex ...he felt rejected ..... I even was dumb enough to go on about all I cared about was getting pregnant.. (Infertility is a b*tch)...only those who have walked it may understand this.. 

So to take some of his passiveness .... The only lie I can even think my Husband ever gave me is promising to not look up Playboy bunnies ...I cried over finding his folders once.. then plastered scriptures all over his desktop... mean while not being the hot vibrant wife he needed.. Lovely of me.. I would try to shame him... this wasn't helping his coming forth with me. 

And I asked him once about the babies sleeping in bed with us & he downplayed it.. he didn't want that.. but didn't want to make it sound like he hated his children to throw them out.. Very very very small and almost silly things in my opinion.. *But it was MY ATTITUDE which wasn't helping matters here..*

Who was worse.. me or him.. I would say ME.. even though I never lied to him about anything.. I am perfect in that area, but wasn't in my attitude...which HURT him many times over MORE than he hurt me.. ... so maybe her H is a better man in attitude but he fcked up here...yes, horrible timing with the weight issues...(that is another animal all on it's own... and a very very delicate one I might add)... 

Men get beat to hell & back on TAM for loosing attraction with some weight gain..all women see is selfish shallowness.. a man can't verbalize it without being slime.. 




> *MLK22 said*: *We have pretty clear boundaries in our marriage - that have been set by BOTH of us. I realize not all men are this way. But I assure he is. After this, I suggested that I have a night out with my GF's and we hit a strip club. He is not hearing it. And even though I was angry, I respected that. Because I'm not the lash out and retaliate type*


 Sounds nothing more needs to be discussed.. you and he have set the boundaries, he is forgiven.. you are honoring his wishes even if you think you are owed a night out to make up for it (I would as well - in your shoes).. it's a good step forward .. 



> He thoroughly admits that his reaction would have been every bit as strong. Minus the tears, likely. I think we are as clear on boundaries as we have ever been. I don't think it was ever a gray area. *I think he found himself in an uncomfortable situation *(I'm sure it wasn't ALL uncomfortable, lol) *and handled it wrong*. I think what we need to do now is to discuss ways he can get out of that kind of situation in the future without feeling emasculated and without hurting his wife


 Not getting drunk will also help with those boundaries. 

Hey MLK22.. I love to debate too...and we have 6 kids !!


----------



## anonmd

SimplyAmorous said:


> So to take some of his passiveness .... The only lie I can even think my Husband ever gave me is promising to not look up Playboy bunnies ...I cried over finding his folders once.. then plastered scriptures all over his desktop... mean while not being the hot vibrant wife he needed.. Lovely of me.. I would try to shame him... this wasn't helping his coming forth with me.
> 
> And I asked him once about the babies sleeping in bed with us & he downplayed it.. he didn't want that.. but didn't want to make it sound like he hated his children to throw them out.. Very very very small and almost silly things in my opinion.. *But it was MY ATTITUDE which wasn't helping matters here..*
> 
> Who was worse.. me or him.. I would say ME.. even though I never lied to him about anything.. I am perfect in that area, but wasn't in my attitude...which HURT him many times over MORE than he hurt me.. ... so maybe her H is a better man in attitude but he fcked up here...yes, horrible timing with the weight issues...(that is another animal all on it's own... and a very very delicate one I might add)...


This is perfect. I can pretty much guaranty that the former meant very little to your husband and the latter hurt him to his core. For you it was the opposite right? If he had known how much you were hurt he probably wouldn't have done it, yes you had talked about it previously but the consequence didn't register because he is not a women. Unfortunate that it takes 20 years to figure these things out sometimes...


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## Yeswecan

Yep, I would not be happy if my W went to The Hanger Club. These boundaries we set up long ago. It has worked well over the years.


----------



## Q tip

Was not aware he was drunk before here got there.

Cute that he was drunk texting you all night. You are in his mind, not some ho with fake ones...


----------



## MLK22

SimplyAmorous said:


> The Men's club was WAY MORE CALM... the guys would be thrown out if they even touched the girl...guys were calm , cool, collected... some were so involved with their friends, they might not even be watching the stripper dance ! Whole different atmosphere altogether.


I think the fact that I have never been inside one may contribute to my wild imagination. Tbh, I have more interest in going, as a couple, now more than ever.


----------



## ConanHub

MLK22 said:


> I think the fact that I have never been inside one may contribute to my wild imagination. Tbh, I have more interest in going, as a couple, now more than ever.


I cannot even fathom how a wife justifies letting a stripper manhandle her while she is also touching him. I can't really fathom husbands being ok with it.

Gotta start a thread about this. Got some definite input and observed experience to add. I have a very close friend that lets his wife go to these clubs a couple times a year.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jaquen

SimplyAmorous said:


> When I compared the 2 experiences.. I had my mouth hanging open
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....when these guys came into the audience... wild women screaming , clawing /reaching for them.... my GF grabbed my hand & made me touch one of their chests... I wanted to crawl under a rock.. my other GF went up on stage.. I looked around watching these guys picking up the girls rocking them back & forth... never seen anything like it..
> 
> The Men's club was WAY MORE CALM... the guys would be thrown out if they even touched the girl...guys were calm , cool, collected... some were so involved with their friends, they might not even be watching the stripper dance ! Whole different atmosphere altogether.


I've seen footage of women at male revues and it's like a feeding frenzy. Literally like a strip club for men...on crack. 

Hell when my wife and me went to see Magic Mike the ladies in there you'd thought were panting after water in a desert. And VERY vocal. Far more than I've ever experienced in a dude flick with hot chicks.


----------



## MLK22

ConanHub said:


> I cannot even fathom how a wife justifies letting a stripper manhandle her while she is also touching him. I can't really fathom husbands being ok with it.
> 
> Gotta start a thread about this. Got some definite input and observed experience to add. I have a very close friend that lets his wife go to these clubs a couple times a year.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You were clear that I'm not talking about a male strip club, right? You may have been, but I wanted to be sure. I think most (surely not ALL) men fantasize about the whole girl on girl thing.

Here's what I'm pretty sure I can handle - and think I might even enjoy -

I'd like to go, (I will definitely have to look my best, for myself,) sit at a table, drink some drinks... observe. I think I might even venture in to getting (myself) a lap dance. I don't know. What I can't do, and probably could never do, is watch hubs get up close and personal with a stripper. He and I have discussed and he is on board for all of the above. One boundary we have discussed is that he will not drink (unless he wants to drink after). Can't have him getting all intoxicated and losing his inhibitions and boundaries. On the other hand, he's a fan of the idea of me losing mine, so...

I don't know. I feel like I may need to vet out this "big, bad strip club", for my own peace of mind. Anyway, it's not a plan. It's just a discussion. For now.


----------



## MLK22

jaquen said:


> I've seen footage of women at male revues and it's like a feeding frenzy. Literally like a strip club for men...on crack.
> 
> Hell when my wife and me went to see Magic Mike the ladies in there you'd thought were panting after water in a desert. And VERY vocal. Far more than I've ever experienced in a dude flick with hot chicks.


A reflection of the social order. Right or wrong, men are trained to "behave" and women are encouraged to "misbehave".


----------



## ConanHub

MLK22 said:


> You were clear that I'm not talking about a male strip club, right? You may have been, but I wanted to be sure. I think most (surely not ALL) men fantasize about the whole girl on girl thing.
> 
> Here's what I'm pretty sure I can handle - and think I might even enjoy -
> 
> I'd like to go, (I will definitely have to look my best, for myself,) sit at a table, drink some drinks... observe. I think I might even venture in to getting (myself) a lap dance. I don't know. What I can't do, and probably could never do, is watch hubs get up close and personal with a stripper. He and I have discussed and he is on board for all of the above. One boundary we have discussed is that he will not drink (unless he wants to drink after). Can't have him getting all intoxicated and losing his inhibitions and boundaries. On the other hand, he's a fan of the idea of me losing mine, so...
> 
> I don't know. I feel like I may need to vet out this "big, bad strip club", for my own peace of mind. Anyway, it's not a plan. It's just a discussion. For now.


Are you talking about getting a lap dance from a female?

My wife and I were talking about this two days ago. There just seems to be something erotic and not too offensive about women"interacting" a little.

I am turned off by gay sex but two women dancing or light touching sends me through the roof. My wife agrees. Watching men kiss grosses us out big time, but women, not as much.

Weird huh?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MLK22

ConanHub said:


> *Are you talking about getting a lap dance from a female?
> 
> My wife and I were talking about this two days ago. There just seems to be something erotic and not too offensive about women"interacting" a little.*
> 
> I am turned off by gay sex but two women dancing or light touching sends me through the roof. My wife agrees. Watching men kiss grosses us out big time, but women, not as much.
> 
> Weird huh?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes! And I agree with the rest as well. (I have no problem with gay sex. It's just not my thing.)


----------



## ConanHub

Hey SA. Both me and Mrs. Conan have screwed up. 23 years would be hard to go through together being perfect.

But sexual boundaries are deal breakers to cross with us. It would be like if your marriage was a human body. It could survive a bruise or two, a cut now and then, maybe even a broken bone or mild internal injury.

Crossing a sexual boundary for us would be like putting a .50 cal to the forehead and blowing the brains out.

Not likely the body would survive that so we don't mess around in that department. 

That is just us. Others are obviously a little looser in that department.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anonmd

Primarily for the women, what do you think men are looking at in the strip club? Humor me, it may help 

When we are single and looking around we look at your face (billions spent on makeup eh?) and general overall shape.


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## MLK22

My perception (right or wrong) has always been that married men are looking to see (fantasize about) women who look better naked than their spouses do (post baby, post 25..), and that it is a reflection of boredom or general disatisfaction at home.


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## anonmd

3 things, 2 come in different sizes and shapes, the third are like snowflakes, no two are the same. What is in between, above or below, not so much. 


It is visual curiosity but we are not concentrating on the whole package. The whole package is at home. 

I know, you are going to have problems understanding that...


----------



## Q tip

Lila said:


> There's nothing wild and crazy about skin bars. My husband and I go every once in a blue moon, mostly when we're out of town on our kid-free weekend getaways. I'm in no way bi-sexual but my husband gets a kick out of watching the girls give me lap dances. Weird, but hey, he's happy.
> 
> My advise if you're interested in visiting a gentlemen's club together....
> 
> 
> Go to a high end place. - Avoid the places with No Cover, it reduces the chances of running into drunk college frat boys.
> Try to go on a weekday or a couples night - Catch the business suit or date night crowds.
> 
> Above all else, relax. Those woman are there to earn money. They have no interest in your husband beyond his wallet.


...and don't forget to bring some per$onality.


----------



## Young at Heart

MLK22 said:


> I totally agree that $28 isn't a lot of money.
> 
> ...Yes, strip clubs had been discussed prior to this. It as merely in passing, as the subject came up in movies, tv or stories of other guys we know. I expressed my opinion, which is this -- married men have no business in them - UNLESS, it is something their wives are comfortable with -- which I am not. Also, men who have daughters of a similar age (he does) should have some perspective --
> 
> ...When I married this man I made a promise that he would be the last man I'd see naked in the flesh. Fantasies, I get. But I feel like marriage vows mean you SHARE that part of you with your spouse...


You have every right to be angry. Rather than piling on, you might want to use this as an opportunity to build your relationship by sharing your views on the boundaries the two of you should have with others, on trust, and on respect.

Just because I married my wife, doesn't mean that if I walk on the beach I can't smile at pretty young women. Touching them or having sex with them is out of bounds. 

Ultimately, you are going to have to put your mind at ease and believe that nothing serious happened at the strip club. That doesn't mean you can't set boundaries for the future and tell him not to do anything like that again. Share with him that you love him and don't want to loose him and that you know that bad things can happen at a strip club and a lot of family money can be wasted there. 

Rather than focusing on what he did, focus on setting boundaries for the future and on using this as a discussion point to so he understands how threatened and disrespected it made you feel.

Good luck.


----------



## ConanHub

Be funny if he shows up to a club and sees his coworkers putting $$ in his daughter's G String.&#55357;&#56840;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jaquen

MLK22 said:


> My perception (right or wrong) has always been that married men are looking to see (fantasize about) women who look better naked than their spouses do (post baby, post 25..), and that it is a reflection of boredom or general disatisfaction at home.


This is where some women get in trouble.

"Married men" don't all do the same thing. And lots of men enjoy going to the strip club, looking at porn, checking out other women, fantasizing, even when their woman is hot, young and fit. 

This seems to be so difficult for a lot of women to get, but often times it's not about you. At all.


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## MLK22

Conanhub, this was actually a point I made, back when I was making points (3 days ago or so).


----------



## jaquen

ConanHub said:


> Be funny if he shows up to a club and sees his coworkers putting $$ in his daughter's G String.��
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I wonder how many women would want their daughters working in a sweatshop, but that sure doesn't seem to stop the scores of millions of women who shop for clothing and shoes at Walmart, K-Mart and Target.


----------



## ConanHub

jaquen said:


> I wonder how many women would want their daughters working in a sweatshop, but that sure doesn't seem to stop the scores of millions of women who shop for clothing and shoes at Walmart, K-Mart and Target.


Different topic but agree.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

MLK22 said:


> Conanhub, this was actually a point I made, back when I was making points (3 days ago or so).


Yeah. I was just getting my jollies from the visual.

I have always been a bit perplexed at men who enjoy women as commodities but blow a fuse if it is their daughter or wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous

anonmd said:


> This is perfect. I can pretty much guaranty that the former meant very little to your husband and the latter hurt him to his core. For you it was the opposite right? If he had known how much you were hurt he probably wouldn't have done it, yes you had talked about it previously but the consequence didn't register because he is not a women. Unfortunate that it takes 20 years to figure these things out sometimes...


I am happy you can see what I am trying to get at here..so many ways to hurt our spouses.. as far as him looking.. his being honest with me.. he never felt really bad about it .. (but he didn't like himself for hurting me...he is very sensitive like that)... WHY didn't he feel guilty... .. he never yanked to them (not while we were together) ...he felt THAT would be like cheating...(his words) so I learned 6 yrs ago.... I looked at him and told him I was a cheater then!! .. OMG , what a crazy conversation we had that night! Our blunder was NOT talking about sex enough... feeling masturbation talk was taboo..

We missed each other in ways that should have never been.. .. it's BOTH our faults.. for very different reasons.. Oh it was good, he just wanted *more*.. I was grouchy when I couldn't conceive more often than I'd like to admit.....Oh what can you do..I am very thankful he's been a wonderful man *throughout all*. 

I have more than redeemed myself ...and I can see how it's UPPED his spirit and our Bond... my now giving back AS MUCH as he always did...it took a mid life surge to wake me up fully ! Some crisis's are a blessing ~ use them wisely.



ConanHub said:


> Hey SA. Both me and Mrs. Conan have screwed up. 23 years would be hard to go through together being perfect.
> 
> But sexual boundaries are deal breakers to cross with us. It would be like if your marriage was a human body. It could survive a bruise or two, a cut now and then, maybe even a broken bone or mild internal injury.
> 
> Crossing a sexual boundary for us would be like putting a .50 cal to the forehead and blowing the brains out.
> 
> Not likely the body would survive that so we don't mess around in that department.
> 
> That is just us. Others are obviously a little looser in that department.


We are a little looser in the Erotica ..yes .. and I won't judge him or myself for feeling as we do.. in reality.. we both pedestalize sex...having only been with each other..

I think coming from a repressive background to some degree... NOT talking openly enough about our desires, sex, masturbation, our fantasies, spicing it up ... so when we did.. we went a little HOg WILD ...the beauty of it was.. we did it all together...it's been a lot of FUN...I often wish we had this sort of mindset in our early years even. But we have NOW... 

I've thought about this.. if one of us fell into the arms of another/ sharing intimacy....it would be like standing over a towering cliff , looking over...ready to plunge to the depths for the thrill of the fall....knowing if I jumped my life / our lives, would never be the same as it was. That something very precious / priceless would forever be lost between us, something irrevocable, that we could *never* get back. 

No...I couldn't trample this!... it would be like ripping a piece of my own heart out & his ... for what I have held near sacred for 33 yrs ...Feeling as strongly as I do in this.... is a GOOD thing.. to take this lightly would not be. 

So I do so understand what you are saying ConanHub...really I do..


----------



## homerjay

I think his sexual morals are different to yours.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Q tip said:


> My opinion is also based on research. Actual facts from medical researchers. I don't FEEL what it should be. It IS what it should be. The books you have read MUST have noticed the slow decline in levels over the past 75 years and why. If not, find better written and researched work.
> 
> I won't argue about your H health. That's up to you and him. I respect that. I've broken out of the human habit of trying to find data and analysis that supports my view or bias. I search for data, fact and truth. That's how it is obvious to me the anti-T commercials and lawyer crap is all false. Six sigma set me free.


 one thing I learned early on in my non stop reading about Testosterone, as I was worrying myself a little sick ... imaging the worst.. .was that there are 2 camps on this.. it seems the *Doctors vs those who hold the Fountain of Youth*.. which our medical benefits will not cover.. 

I guess I reside somewhere in between.. when Docs ignore clear "dragging"- something is NOT right " symptoms & only go by numbers.. they need dropped immediately ... find one who cares about the patients QUALITY OF LIFE.... I am content to adhere to such a Physicians advice for my Husband .. 

I don't have all the answers and I have stopped reading about much of it -realizing how happy my Husband is, he's getting morning erections -they may be hit or miss but he rarely needs a slither of Viagra (I cut a 50mg into 4 for goodness sakes, it still does its magic).... he works hard every day, he doesn't come home complaining or feeling bushed.. there is no irritability..he is always up beat.. ...

We're all going to die someday. I have resolved the fact.. I am good where we are.. our health.. I am not feeling he needs this and neither does he..in fact if I even brought this up, THIS would cause irritation in him ! 

If things start misfiring in the future, he is dragging..I'll be revisiting this ALL OVER AGAIN.. no doubt..

Though it is good to learn both sides.... On the cholesterol front, I have books against statins.. there are those who swear by them..It's just hard to know who to believe... so you end up taking your risks..


----------



## MLK22

homerjay said:


> I think his sexual morals are different to yours.


Nope. Read more posts. He felt and FEELS it is unacceptable for me to go...


----------



## jaquen

ConanHub said:


> Yeah. I was just getting my jollies from the visual.
> 
> I have always been a bit perplexed at men who enjoy women as commodities but blow a fuse if it is their daughter or wife.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not me. Since it's typical of human beings to pay for all kinds of goods and services that they'd never, ever want to see their children partake in, the inherent shifting standards seems like, I don't know, par for the course. Human nature and all that jazz. 

This is a bit of a straw man.


----------



## ConanHub

jaquen said:


> Not me. Since it's typical of human beings to pay for all kinds of goods and services that they'd never, ever want to see their children partake in, the inherent shifting standards seems like, I don't know, par for the course. Human nature and all that jazz.
> 
> This is a bit of a straw man.


Straw man?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Catherine602

It's not a straw man at all. It is the central dilemma of the human race. We are all faced with it - doing the right thing when it does not seem to benefit us directly but benefits someone else. 

A man goes to a strip club under the influence of workmates, knowing that it will hurt his wife. He takes a step in the wrong direction, maybe one of many. Next time they are away from home, the guys may suggest going to a bar and flirting with women, then taking one back to the hotel seems like a good thing to do. 

Each step puts him on the path of treating all women like commodities. His wife and the strippers. The former he hurts because her feelings don't matter and the latter just plain don't matter. Woman are not special to him. 

This is no straw man, its the central goal on TAM, - men being respected by their wives and family, right? A strong code of behavior and values seems to be one way to reach that goal.


----------



## jaquen

Catherine602 said:


> It's not a straw man at all.


It is exactly the definition of a straw man.

*The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern of argument:

Person 1 asserts proposition X.
Person 2 argues against a false but superficially similar proposition Y, as if that were an argument against X.*

The debate at hand is about a specific man going to the strip club. Conanhub's attempt to detract from the debate at hand by using the hypothetical daughter scenario is a classic straw man logical fallacy (not to mention an appeal to emotion).


----------



## Cobalt

Can we get back to talking about strippers?


----------



## Q tip

SimplyAmorous said:


> one thing I learned early on in my non stop reading about Testosterone, as I was worrying myself a little sick ... imaging the worst.. .was that there are 2 camps on this.. it seems the *Doctors vs those who hold the Fountain of Youth*.. which our medical benefits will not cover..
> 
> I guess I reside somewhere in between.. when Docs ignore clear "dragging"- something is NOT right " symptoms & only go by numbers.. they need dropped immediately ... find one who cares about the patients QUALITY OF LIFE.... I am content to adhere to such a Physicians advice for my Husband ..
> 
> I don't have all the answers and I have stopped reading about much of it -realizing how happy my Husband is, he's getting morning erections -they may be hit or miss but he rarely needs a slither of Viagra (I cut a 50mg into 4 for goodness sakes, it still does its magic).... he works hard every day, he doesn't come home complaining or feeling bushed.. there is no irritability..he is always up beat.. ...
> 
> We're all going to die someday. I have resolved the fact.. I am good where we are.. our health.. I am not feeling he needs this and neither does he..in fact if I even brought this up, THIS would cause irritation in him !
> 
> If things start misfiring in the future, he is dragging..I'll be revisiting this ALL OVER AGAIN.. no doubt..
> 
> Though it is good to learn both sides.... On the cholesterol front, I have books against statins.. there are those who swear by them..It's just hard to know who to believe... so you end up taking your risks..


It's the quality as you say. People are really starting to die longer, my goal is to live longer and die shorter. Hence the T recommendations. Those folks with those levels live longer and die shorter. I just follow the healthier ones.

Same with Viagra. Just hides the symptoms. There are better ways. Not chemicals. 

To each their own...


----------



## ConanHub

jaquen said:


> It is exactly the definition of a straw man.
> 
> *The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern of argument:
> 
> Person 1 asserts proposition X.
> Person 2 argues against a false but superficially similar proposition Y, as if that were an argument against X.*
> 
> The debate at hand is about a specific man going to the strip club. Conanhub's attempt to detract from the debate at hand by using the hypothetical daughter scenario is a classic straw man logical fallacy (not to mention an appeal to emotion).


When you miss a target, you usually miss by a mile don't you?

I was simply musing and sharing a thought that I have often had.

I could easily derail a thread but that has never been my intention.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Q tip said:


> It's the quality as you say. People are really starting to die longer, my goal is to live longer and die shorter. Hence the T recommendations. Those folks with those levels live longer and die shorter. I just follow the healthier ones.
> 
> Same with Viagra. Just hides the symptoms. There are better ways. Not chemicals.
> 
> To each their own...


I brought this up last night, he asked me why I wanted his balls to shrink... honestly .. he wants no part of it.. when I wanted sex 3 times a day I was even HOPING he'd be put on it....I was too antsy and my dream was a Lust machine who couldn't get enough...

Who was being selfish here..* ME*!... I felt like he couldn't satisfy me... I wanted him to be more aggressive, some of my 1st threads here.... he was NEVER this man, even in his youth.. again. ..who was being SELFISH.. *ME* !!! 

Now if I start down this roller coaster again with him. he is going to start feeling like he is not GOOD enough, in fact he alluded to that last night.. 

One blessid thing... my sex drive came back down to earth and he seems more "randy" over me -especially in the mornings...he is finding he needs to work ME up now.. though I am big on the "use it or lose it" ... as I want to keep him as sexually healthy as possible...

The Viagra saved us when I was PUSHING his limits.. these days -let's just say the bottle we have is over 4 yrs old.. it's not needed. 

And Yes I remember your saying "Repeat after me, Testosterone is not just a sex hormone"... 

But thank you for the correspondence Q-tip.


----------



## MLK22

Although I have been silent about the low T and sex drive conversation I have been reading intently. All good information, all helpful, at least in trying to grasp an understanding. SA - my H has been personally consumed with this since he said it out loud. I feel awful because I cannot tell you how many times I've blown my top over this through the years (because I didn't know, I thought itxwas ME). My biggest fear is making him feel worse. Praying for patience here, because, while knowing what I know now makes me feel better about US. I still want him aaaallll the time. 
We don't have medical insurance. I don't want to get in to that debate. Sufficed to say -- TODAY - seeing a GP is not possible. He has already (just since telling me two days ago) readxtons of articles and been to GNC to buy supplements. He is desperately searching for a miracle cure. I'm worried about his health and peace of mind.


----------



## DoF

You don't have medical insurance? I hope you realize that is bankruptcy/financial disaster waiting to happen. 

Also, be careful with supplements.......VERY careful. There is no magic or miracles.

He needs to get on top of you and just do it, regardless if he wants it or not or is in the mood. NOTHING will do that for him.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Well you see the whole debate ...bringing up the daughter and all ..... I think our society is a little bit crazy.. for one..many will defend and see NOTHING wrong with "Hooking up"..it's rampant today...... he looks good... F**k him.... she looks hot, F**K her... pleasure is to be pursued (if you disagree you are archaic, restraining others sexuality, repressed, can we add "Prude"!)... no emotional commitment necessary...so long as there is consent & birth control --- it's all good! 

and we wonder why so few care to marry anymore when we have this smorgasbord of variety out there - in our beds.. not just in our heads.. 

This is what our kids are growing up with -infiltrated in our music, those in Holly wood is a disgrace....I've always been against these things.. it's not a lifestyle I wanted any part of ..... but I've come to realize -listening to many HERE...to get it through my thick skull ..... if this is what others ENJOY (whether it hurts them or not -and many claim it NEVER DID)...if they feel empowered by it ..... then shut up ! Let them do what they want to do... It's THEIR LIFE, it's THEIR BODY.. It's their RIGHT... doesn't make them a bad person.. but it would make them very incompatible with someone like myself. 

And honesty, something is built into all of us - or the vast majority to be turned on by the EROTIC.. Hey, it would be great if I was immune, but I never was - * I just shamed myself* for when it caused a rise -when I was supposed to be a christian.. 

So yeah I let some of that go... most will just continue to hide & lie in face of those who try to put shame on them. It's just easier to deal with, none of us like feeling judged... 

Personally I don't see strippers with all that seductive dancing to even compare to taking people we don't know to bed, fusing their bodies together in such a vulnerable & personal way..

I do not believe all strippers are sleeping with their customers either.. I've met & talked to some of them.. learned about their lives.. (another post on that - maybe) 

If this is what they have chosen to do (and they are of legal age).... why should I view them as a victim.. it still comes back to their choice ..and would be the same if My own daughter took this path....oh we wouldn't like it....though it's much more accepted today and will continue to be so with casual sex being the norm.. 

One couldn't pay myself or H to sit through a Superbowl.. BORING BORING BORING.. but we'll happily enjoy a little porn! 

Let's face it.. women's beauty is a turn on... it's just human nature...what he likes (solo women, dancing) and what I like (soft / romantic man & woman)... is different .....can I say I am thankful he is one who also feels this is human nature and not something to feel guilty about or try to shame me over...nor will I him.. 

We have no desire in hurting anyone.. any thing we have set our eyes upon is from those who made a choice to do what they do.


----------



## MLK22

SA, 

You are really insightful. Nearly every post you make thoroughly speaks to me.

DoF, 
Dude.... I said I didn't want to talk about the health insurance issue.... I already KNOW. Not going to explain THAT, HERE. Never you worry -- it is on the forefront of my mind.
Supplements -- I know. I've been reading, and I'm worried. The one he picked up was mostly a multivitamin, but also has gingko and ginseng. This is because this is the only one I was comfortable with. I'm hoping that, of doesn't have s PHYSICAL effect, it will have a placebo effect, and he can stop obsessing. 
It is unrealistic to say he should just "do it". We all know it works that way for women, but you, especially (being a man) should know it doesn't work that way for men. And the handful of times he has tried muddle through with a semi have been unpleasant for both of us.
I have come to the conclusion that, at this point, MY patience is required. It's not as though we are not having sex. One, twice a week is not sexual deprivation. And it's pretty damn good when we have it. For now, I want to make every effort to try to take the pressure off.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

MLK22 said:


> . SA - my H has been personally consumed with this since he said it out loud.* I feel awful because I cannot tell you how many times I've blown my top over this through the years (because I didn't know, I thought itxwas ME). My biggest fear is making him feel worse.* *Praying for patience here, because, while knowing what I know now makes me feel better about US. I still want him aaaallll the time. *


 give us something to go on here.. How often are you having sex...does he initiate ?? 

DOES HE MASTURBATE ... I'm assuming he isn't....have you talked about it.. Any sex therapist would advise having the lower drive partner save all of his or her energy for the other...

Is there other symptoms going on ?? 

The Signs of Low Testosterone - Men's Health Center 



> Decreased sex drive
> Erectile dysfunction
> Reduced energy level
> Reduced strength and endurance levels
> Sleep problems
> Emotional problems including sadness, irritability, difficulty concentrating, and depression
> 
> Increased breast size and tenderness
> Decrease in the amount of body hair
> Decreased penis or testicle size
> Loss of muscle mass





> We don't have medical insurance. I don't want to get in to that debate. Sufficed to say -- TODAY - seeing a GP is not possible. He has already (just since telling me two days ago) readxtons of articles and been to GNC to buy supplements. He is desperately searching for a miracle cure. I'm worried about his health and peace of mind.


 One poster who is gone now, Caribbean Man, recommended THIS...and had good results...

Universal Nutrition Animal Pak Sports Nutrition Supplement, 44-Count I saved it in my amazon wish list for future reference.. it has 711 5 star reviews... so a very good reputation... 

This has a nice list, I bet you read many of these though..

Carnitine - Best Supplements for Erectile Dysfunction, Impotence and Sexual Health

Natural Sex Boosters: Can You Rev Up Your Libido?

I give my H a handful of vitamins every morning...I buy from Puritan's Pride.. the Ultra Vita Man....Dhea 50mg, Vit D, Vitamin C, Zinc 25mg, Fish oil, garlic, B3... For a time was taking Arginmax (from GNC) supposed to support men's sexual health .. Tried horny goat weed .. ha ha..can't say I noticed anything.. I even had him try Tongat ali for a time.. but his skin became inflamed to where I couldn't touch him.. that was the END OF THAT !

Then you have to be careful....

Tainted Sexual Enhancement Products



> *MLK22 said:* *SA,
> 
> You are really insightful. Nearly every post you make thoroughly speaks to me*.


 ...I just THINK a lot ...trying to dissect many things in my mind...to where I fall on an issue..


----------



## ConanHub

SA. There is a difference between sexual experimentation, something I don't condone, and selling your sex as a commodity.

Strippers aren't selling insurance. I call it low level prostitution. I'll start a thread as I have a personal story attached.

I love the erotic as well. I disagree with how most eroticism is bought and sold.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blondilocks

"He needs to get on top of you and just do it, regardless if he wants it or not or is in the mood. NOTHING will do that for him."

Please share the secret to defying the laws of physics. We're all ears.


----------



## ConanHub

Blondilocks said:


> "He needs to get on top of you and just do it, regardless if he wants it or not or is in the mood. NOTHING will do that for him."
> 
> Please share the secret to defying the laws of physics. We're all ears.


Where there's a woman there's a boner!&#55357;&#56833;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jaquen

DoF said:


> You don't have medical insurance? I hope you realize that is bankruptcy/financial disaster waiting to happen.


That's none of your business. The woman expressly said she didn't want to have a debate about her family's personal medical insurance status. You need to show some respect.


----------



## Blondilocks

ConanHub said:


> Where there's a woman there's a boner!��
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


From your lips to God's ears. Ladies & Gents, we have our answer. Praise be!


----------



## norajane

I'm the last person that would push someone into having sex if they weren't interested in the moment, but men without erections can do a _lot _of other things with their wives sexually that don't require erections. Sex really isn't _all _about the penis.


----------



## Cobalt

Never wear sweatpants to a strip club.


----------



## MLK22

*SA,*

"give us something to go on here.. How often are you having sex...does he initiate ?? 

DOES HE MASTURBATE ... I'm assuming he isn't....have you talked about it.. Any sex therapist would advise having the lower drive partner save all of his or her energy for the other..."


He says he does not. I can only assume he is telling the truth. 


"Is there other symptoms going on ??"

*Definitely these:*
Decreased sex drive, Erectile dysfunction (which I never believed was happening, I literally thought it was that he didn't want me)
*And sometimes these:*
Reduced energy level
Sleep problems
Irritability

The Arginmax from GNC -- that's what he bought yesterday.



norajane said:


> I'm the last person that would push someone into having sex if they weren't interested in the moment, but men without erections can do a _lot _of other things with their wives sexually that don't require erections. Sex really isn't _all _about the penis.


So true, and he is very willing. And actually, we have dabbled in previously. It only frustrates me in the end. A big part of the sex for me is HIM. HIS desire, HIS excitement - the win/win. When I'm the only one winning, I don't really feel like I'm winning. I just want HIM. Everything else falls short for me.


----------



## MLK22

" How often are you having sex...does he initiate ?? "

Sorry, forgot to tackle this one.

Sex -- typically once, maybe twice a week. Sometimes on a lazy Saturday or Sunday it will be twice in a day. (Which is not separate from the total count of once a week, twice if I'm lucky).

Initiation --

When we have sex, it is usually through his initiation. When I initiate with hints, visual or physical stimulation - he typically plays dumb - or flat out ignores me (even when I get angry). Clearly, this was prior to the honest conversation we had a couple of days ago, before I was fully informed of how he was feeling.

When we have sex, his initiation is pretty insistent -- he is NOT hearing that I am tired or don't feel well (and I always accommodate) With the full picture I have now, that makes more sense to me than it did before. (I'm sure he wants to take advantage of the opportunity when it comes a-knockin.)


----------



## jaquen

MLK22 said:


> So true, and he is very willing. And actually, we have dabbled in previously. It only frustrates me in the end. A big part of the sex for me is HIM. HIS desire, HIS excitement - the win/win. When I'm the only one winning, I don't really feel like I'm winning. I just want HIM. Everything else falls short for me.


One of the main problems with ED is that anxiety over ED just makes it worse. It's suppose to be a vicious cycle.

Why not take the pressure off? He can have a mutually enjoyable time without penetrating you. Have you all tried oral sex? Perhaps 69? Him stimulating you with his mouth while he masturbates? That could be very pleasurable while not putting any pressure, mental or physical, on him to perform with his penis.

And if he's able to enjoy these acts it might actually empower him and help with the ED. He might be able to segway into penetrative sex from there. Which only is good for you both in the end.


----------



## Cletus

badsanta said:


> The women know this and use it to make a living.


30 years ago, I went to a local strip club and tried an experiment. A girl came out who was very young and attractive. I decided to see what would happen if I never let my eyes drop from her face the entire set.

From her expression, I think she almost called security on me.


----------



## MLK22

We have, we DO all those things. And now that I know there is another reason that sex itself is sometimes on the back burner (other than my fear of him not wanting ME) -- I'm more than willing to do what I can to lighten the load and have fun other ways. 

Getting him to take the pressure off HIMSELF, that's another story.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

MLK22 said:


> We have, we DO all those things. And now that I know there is another reason that sex itself is sometimes on the back burner (other than my fear of him not wanting ME) -- I'm more than willing to do what I can to lighten the load and have fun other ways.
> 
> Getting him to take the pressure off HIMSELF, that's another story.


This book can help with ideas not involving intercourse...Let Me Count the Ways: Discovering Great Sex Without Intercourse 

I bought this when my H turned 50 last year.. All Night Long: How to Make Love to a Man Over 50  ..Boy does it ever go into detail about the penis and how it will respond and how it has a mind of it's own...with emphasis on US to not take this personal ... very insightful book.. I really like this author, I also bought her Sexual Healing  book yrs back to help us get through some of the performance anxiety I caused my Husband...using something called Sensate Focus .... 



norajane said:


> I'm the last person that would push someone into having sex if they weren't interested in the moment, but men without erections can do a _lot _of other things with their wives sexually that don't require erections. Sex really isn't _all _about the penis.


Yeah .. I am one of those women who did push it... I don't think many could relate to what I was feeling in my body though.. it was very VERY intense... I even went to the OBGYN.... I wish I had my hormones tested...She sort of brushed me off... I hardly needed any sleep.. like I was walking on air...I was aroused 24 hrs a day.. couldn't get my mind out of the gutter, all I wanted to do was flirt & have sex...porn became "electric" suddenly... never needed a drop of foreplay for 8 months! He kept telling me my body temperature was SO HOT ...(I had a fever alright ).... my underarms had a stronger odor (this was not normal either) it didn't matter how many times I washed & applied deoderant.. (almost like our teens sons going through puberty)... my hormones were off the charts here.. and it was messing with my head..

I loved it but it was also tormenting to me at the same time.. I've read of women getting this Mid life surge...but jeez, this was too much [email protected]##...

I would also get very very sensitive if I felt my H didn't want me.. and would have occasional meltdowns ..so worried about his slowing down..

DO I sound crazy yet ?? ... In the mean time I upped every novelty to keep it spicy , reading books on how to pleasure a man.... I made sure he ate better.. got lots of sleep.... anything to improve his levels naturally...articles like this >> How to Increase Testosterone Levels Naturally

Mornings are generally when men are most "ready to go" after a night's sleep.... have you found this to be true MLK22 ?....just suggesting to take advantage of his morning erections during this time when you are craving so much more... 



> *MLK22 said: * So true, and he is very willing. And actually, we have dabbled in previously. It only frustrates me in the end. *A big part of the sex for me is HIM. HIS desire, HIS excitement - the win/win. When I'm the only one winning, I don't really feel like I'm winning. I just want HIM. Everything else falls short for me.*


 I completely understand this.. I really NEED my Husband's desire too...or it's just not the same... I am not one to orgasm from cunnilingus.... what do they say..... 75% of women orgasm this way and only about 30% from Intercourse.... some of us are in the 30%... this is what we crave... ..which can make it a little harder on us -if things are slipping in that area... 

Have you thought about erection enhancers.. we tried something called Stiff nights, that was potent ! I think they took it off the market.. Viagra really works well but you'd need a prescription ...one really good thing about these.. is...his body won't become dependent on it.. it can help men with performance anxiety too -just to get over a hump & bring back some confidence.. then they can be put away and not thought of again!


----------



## MLK22

SA,
It's reaching the point now where your words are pretty much gospel for me. You are really speaking my language. This could have come out of my own mouth:

"Yeah .. I am one of those women who did push it... I don't think many could relate to what I was feeling in my body though.. it was very VERY intense... I even went to the OBGYN.... I wish I had my hormones tested...She sort of brushed me off... I hardly needed any sleep.. like I was walking on air...I was aroused 24 hrs a day.. couldn't get my mind out of the gutter, all I wanted to do was flirt & have sex...porn became "electric" suddenly... never needed a drop of foreplay for 8 months! He kept telling me my body temperature was SO HOT ...(I had a fever alright ).... my underarms had a stronger odor (this was not normal either) it didn't matter how many times I washed & applied deoderant.. (almost like our teens sons going through puberty)... my hormones were off the charts here.. and it was messing with my head.. I loved it but it was also tormenting to me at the same time.. I've read of women getting this Mid life surge...but jeez, this was too much [email protected]##... I would also get very very sensitive if I felt my H didn't want me.. and would have occasional meltdowns ..so worried about his slowing down."

Sweet torment, huh?

I'm going to look into every damn thing you say that you found helpful. I think you might be me in an altalternate universe.


----------



## anonmd

Just so you know, what you are describing is the 'normal male' sex drive from say 16 or 18 to 35. Which is not to say it slows down all that much after that for many of us but a little of the edge can come off. 

Good luck figuring this out, I can see it really being a problem. I've seen only brief flashes of what SA is describing from my wife, a week or a little longer a handful of times. the first few days it is really great:smthumbup: but then there will come a time when you start to wonder to yourself what will you do if she comes at you one more time? This from a guy who normally never has any perf. issues. Add an unreliable erection to the mix, minefield.


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## Starstarfish

I almost don't want to wade in here, but - honestly, some of the responses in this thread (which yes, I read the whole thread.)

Why are the reactions to female "bait and switch" and hypocrisy met with hew and cry and almost thunderous slathering but when a man exhibits the same hypocritical behavior in which he presented himself as not believing in activity X, but then does activity X, it's just no big deal. It's "just a man thing" and to be concerned about it is "controlling." 

That if you need to do something against agreed boundaries to save face in front of your boss - well, that's just what needs to happen. 

It seems more readily apparent on TAM in different ways every day that there is one set of expectations of behavior for women and another for men. And that both men -and- women seem to in their own way support that idea. 

Where are all the people on the GNO threads where people start all but saying divorce women who want to have a GNO saying "It's just a girl thing" and "sometimes you just want to have sexual fantasies" - etc? Or "she deserves a reward for being a good wife?" And "she's thinking it in her head anyway."


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## MLK22

Starstarfish said:


> I almost don't want to wade in here, but - honestly, some of the responses in this thread (which yes, I read the whole thread.)
> 
> Why are the reactions to female "bait and switch" and hypocrisy met with hew and cry and almost thunderous slathering but when a man exhibits the same hypocritical behavior in which he presented himself as not believing in activity X, but then does activity X, it's just no big deal. It's "just a man thing" and to be concerned about it is "controlling."
> 
> That if you need to do something against agreed boundaries to save face in front of your boss - well, that's just what needs to happen.
> 
> It seems more readily apparent on TAM in different ways every day that there is one set of expectations of behavior for women and another for men. And that both men -and- women seem to in their own way support that idea.
> 
> Where are all the people on the GNO threads where people start all but saying divorce women who want to have a GNO saying "It's just a girl thing" and "sometimes you just want to have sexual fantasies" - etc? Or "she deserves a reward for being a good wife?" And "she's thinking it in her head anyway."


On my phone so I can't like... But YES! Spot on.


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## SimplyAmorous

> *MLK22 said*: *SA,
> It's reaching the point now where your words are pretty much gospel for me. You are really speaking my language. This could have come out of my own mouth:
> 
> Sweet torment, huh?
> 
> I'm going to look into every damn thing you say that you found helpful. I think you might be me in an altalternate universe.*


 How old are you MLK22? I was 42 when this happened to me...had our last son, oldest went off to college...after making a movie maker video of just him & I....scanning old photos....adding a mushy song...watching it back .. I fell apart.. it HIT ME... Our life is like a vapor, I have been so busy planning/ Doing for our family.... I was missing HIM right in front of me.. missing US..I wanted to reach into the screen and grab that hot young man & live those years over again.. My dopamine was mightily stirred in the wee hours of the night.... my H got up for work...I was all over him.. he will say it started that morning.. (just a tid bit of our story) 

There has been a handful of women on TAM who described feeling like this.. *the intensity*.. like this thread..... 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/43267-i-cant-stop-thinking-about-sex.html...

One of the books I bought early on ... really enjoyed this.. 

Passionista: The Empowered Woman's Guide to Pleasuring a Man  ... I went on a lingerie kick, bought some sex furniture, we rented porn, went on some romantic vacations, new positions, taking it outside.. 

This book When Your Sex Drives Don't Match: Discover Your Libido Types to Create a Mutually Satisfying Sex Life  

...helped me understand his Libido type in comparison to mine....we had the sensual in common -but outside of that .. I was an Erotic /Dependent (meaning I needed it on a regular basis for happiness)...he was a Reactive -which helped me understand his desire depended on mine pretty much... this helped me lay some things to rest so I could accept him as he is.. and work with it... 

It speaks of 10 libido types.....Sensual, Erotic, Compulsive, Dependent, Stressed, Disinterested, Detached, Addictive, Entitled, and Reactive. (If you want ... I can do a whole post for you on explaining these individually...just ask me).. .

Here is a link for couples to narrow it down..

Identifying Your Libido Type



anonmd said:


> *Just so you know, what you are describing is the 'normal male' sex drive from say 16 or 18 to 35. Which is not to say it slows down all that much after that for many of us but a little of the edge can come off. *


 OH absolutely.. I have described it this way many times... saying "







I don't know how young men can even concentrate on school work.. it was sooooo distracting [email protected]##.... I guess that's why they need sports!

I had a renewed respect for the male sex drive & I felt deep sympathy for anyone wading through this.. also realizing what I put my H through -when we were trying to conceive all those yrs.. Experiencing this opened my eyes SO WIDE.. *I will never be the same..*

I never really got it before because he was ALWAYS there, ready, willing & I NEVER suffered at all.. It was a shock to my system being on this end.. 



> Good luck figuring this out, I can see it really being a problem. I've seen only brief flashes of what SA is describing from my wife, a week or a little longer a handful of times. the first few days it is really great:smthumbup*: but then there will come a time when you start to wonder to yourself what will you do if she comes at you one more time? This from a guy who normally never has any perf. issues.* Add an unreliable erection to the mix, minefield.


 This is one of the many reasons I near worship my H.. he handled me so well during that ...I owe him the world.. 

I asked him if I was burden one night.... he looked at me , started laughing & said ... "Sex a burden, are you crazy woman!" (good answer!).... I had to calm my jets when he was too tired of course..I'd go jump on the net...like I said, coming to this forum was a healthy distraction for me..

Outside of this...he rarely turned me down....always willing for me to lay my hands on him and work it up.. I know it was pressuring for him.. yet he was open to it.... he even told me to put my toys away , he wanted me to come to him every time.. I cried when he told me that.. 

We've talked about this.. he loves sex... in the back of his mind.. he figured this wouldn't last.. so he was going to take ALL he could get...figuring I'd dry up soon enough.. 

But yeah...this WAS my mid life crisis, one could say..for a time I just wanted to go back in time sooo bad...to relive those years... what I felt we missed... But we had NOW..and I was going to make the best of it ..


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## jaquen

Starstarfish said:


> I almost don't want to wade in here, but - honestly, some of the responses in this thread (which yes, I read the whole thread.)
> 
> Why are the reactions to female "bait and switch" and hypocrisy met with hew and cry and almost thunderous slathering but when a man exhibits the same hypocritical behavior in which he presented himself as not believing in activity X, but then does activity X, it's just no big deal. It's "just a man thing" and to be concerned about it is "controlling."
> 
> That if you need to do something against agreed boundaries to save face in front of your boss - well, that's just what needs to happen.
> 
> It seems more readily apparent on TAM in different ways every day that there is one set of expectations of behavior for women and another for men. And that both men -and- women seem to in their own way support that idea.
> 
> Where are all the people on the GNO threads where people start all but saying divorce women who want to have a GNO saying "It's just a girl thing" and "sometimes you just want to have sexual fantasies" - etc? Or "she deserves a reward for being a good wife?" And "she's thinking it in her head anyway."


Double standards run rife on TAM.

However I hope you aren't implying those standards universally fall in favor of men over women here. Because that would be, of course, laughable.


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## Cletus

Starstarfish said:


> Why are the reactions to female "bait and switch" and hypocrisy met with hew and cry and almost thunderous slathering but when a man exhibits the same hypocritical behavior in which he presented himself as not believing in activity X, but then does activity X, it's just no big deal. It's "just a man thing" and to be concerned about it is "controlling."


It's a false equivalency. "Bait and switch" is specifically used for when you pretend or fake more interest in sex with your partner before marriage, then show your true self after the ring goes on. 

This is hypocrisy and lying.


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## Racer

Starstarfish said:


> Why are the reactions to female "bait and switch" and hypocrisy met with hew and cry and almost thunderous slathering but when a man exhibits the same hypocritical behavior in which he presented himself as not believing in activity X, but then does activity X, it's just no big deal. It's "just a man thing" and to be concerned about it is "controlling."


Normally, when a guy talks about the bait and switch it isn’t about her ‘saying’ she’s into this or that. She was doing ‘this’ regularly without complaint and often enthusiasm. Ring goes on and she stops DOING whatever it is. It’s something you had and valued, then is taken away. That is the “switch” part.

What you described is just lying. You probably left out where she made her views clear. He lies and tells you the answer he knows you wanted to hear. He lied knowing the truth wouldn’t be received well. He kept up the lie while hiding the truth; there was no switch, just lies. Sort of like if your girlfriend told you her number of lovers and lied like hell. Then later, after you marry her, you find out she lied about something she knew you felt strongly about… she just continued the lie (and its own kind of damage to the trust)…. There was no “switch”.


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