# does cheating indicate a lack of empathy with the betrayed spouse?



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Is that it? Somehow, does the empathy either get broken or lost? Or was somehow never there in the first place?


----------



## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

I think our culture is rapidly becoming narcissistic which is resulting in a lack of empathy. It follows, therefore, that a wayward spouse is more intent on getting their needs met than considering the impact that their actions will have on their betrayed spouse. 

The base of narcissism and infidelity is lack of empathy.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> I think our culture is rapidly becoming narcissistic which is resulting in a lack of empathy. It follows, therefore, that a wayward spouse is more intent on getting their needs met than considering the impact that their actions will have on their betrayed spouse.
> 
> The base of narcissism and infidelity is lack of empathy.


So... they do not consider the likely impact their affair/s will have on their BS.


----------



## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

We are all fundamentaly selfish and prone to self gratification. Everytime. 
Sometimes "it" doesn't mean the same for the two partners.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I think most (foolishly) assume they won't get caught. I suspect very few cheaters intend for their spouse to even learn about the affair. In the unlikely event their spouse becomes suspicious, they intend to lie.


----------



## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> So... they do not consider the likely impact their affair/s will have on their BS.


IMO, it's unlikely that they do, Matt. Even if they feel guilt, it's my guess that their own needs take precedence.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I think there are different kinds of cheater. If I lump them into two groups... 

1) Serial Cheaters... these are people who just cheat because they think they are entitled. It's like a sport or something to them. With this attitude they probably never had empathy for the BS.. .not even when/if they were not cheating. They are users. They marry someone to get the benefits of marriage and have no intent of ever remaining monogamouns.

2) I'm not sure what name to give this group.. they tend to be people who never thought they would cheat. They had no intention of cheating... until something goes not quite right in the marriage for them. They get to a point where they feel that their needs are not being met.. and they turn very selfish. They stop caring about their spouse or meeting the spouse's needs. While they might have had empthy for their spouse to start with that's lost with their selfishness. These folks often suffer a lot of guilt for their cheating so on some level they know what they are doing is very wrong.


----------



## B1 (Jun 14, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> I think most (foolishly) assume they won't get caught. I suspect very few cheaters intend for their spouse to even learn about the affair. In the unlikely event their spouse becomes suspicious, they intend to lie.


:iagree:


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Acabado said:


> We are all fundamentaly selfish and prone to self gratification. Everytime.
> Sometimes "it" doesn't mean the same for the two partners.


Agree

It's the smallest difference in people that variety of personality that makes every single situation slightly different.

Take 100 exact 'on the cusp of adultery scenarios' and everybody will be grouped vaguely in a narrow band for their responses to that situation

Most will do the right thing and not go there after weighing up through, the pros and cons. 

Here's the trick though, some will get there a lot quicker and easier than others, some will wrestle with it and some, not that many, will do the same but at the opposite end of the scale they will 'go for it' 

I do think sadly that a different overall mentally about infidelity socially is now prevalent.

We live in an age of quick self gratification and for me the general all pervasive attitude about having what you want at any cost is on the rise.

I'm shocked at the peripheral fugures around infidelity the friends close ones who raise their eyebrows but than exclaim "mmm terrible but now we all move on" .

An adulterer was always castigated in past times I often get the feeling now that they are quietly admired for having the courage to 'go for what they want and getting it' 

mmm


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Not quite sure where my fww fits in this, however. She acted in a way that was, on the face of it, very unempathetic, yet blew my mind by doing this in a way that was, oddly, empathetic.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Matt, don't be suckered in by their excuses. People can justify anything to themselves and it's human nature for most decent people to be eager to forgive and show compassion. That doesn't mean it's always smart to do so. Nobody cheats without making a series of deliberate, selfish, decisions. That they can excuse their behavior to themselves doesn't mean they should or that we should accept their excuses. 
I arrest people 15 times for the same offense and each and every time they'll have a great excuse and they swear they will never do it again. It's hilarious. In the cell block, they talk all sorts of smack, then in front of the judge, it's all tears, humility, and bogus promises. As soon as they're out of earshot of the judge, the smack talk resumes.


----------



## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Not quite sure where my fww fits in this, however. She acted in a way that was, on the face of it, very unempathetic, yet blew my mind by doing this in a way that was, oddly, empathetic.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Your wife and you have serious issues and I don't say that lightly.


----------



## Furious George (Nov 14, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> So... they do not consider the likely impact their affair/s will have on their BS.


I don't believe it ever passes through their mind.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> Your wife and you have serious issues and I don't say that lightly.


We did have. Hopefully those circumstances will never arise again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ALWAYS TRYING (Mar 2, 2013)

I believe hubby believes he can do whatever he wants. His motto is "you only live once, no regrets". So if he wants to play with someone else go for it and move forward. Also he does not want me to find out. I'm such a GOOD WIFE. Slap me. 

So empathy .... Yes but still selfish.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

ALWAYS TRYING said:


> I believe hubby believes he can do whatever he wants. His motto is "you only live once, no regrets". So if he wants to play with someone else go for it and move forward. Also he does not want me to find out. I'm such a GOOD WIFE. Slap me.
> 
> So empathy .... Yes but still selfish.


Selfishness with empathy? Yes, I know something of that!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Not quite sure where my fww fits in this, however. She acted in a way that was, on the face of it, very unempathetic, yet blew my mind by doing this in a way that was, oddly, empathetic.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Forgive me if I'm wrong, Matt, but isn't your wife an aspie? This would perhaps account for a certain level of lack of empathy, if I'm not mistaken...


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> Forgive me if I'm wrong, Matt, but isn't your wife an aspie? This would perhaps account for a certain level of lack of empathy, if I'm not mistaken...


Yes, but sometimes she does 'get' it other times not. Makes life interesting!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> I think most (foolishly) assume they won't get caught. I suspect very few cheaters intend for their spouse to even learn about the affair. In the unlikely event their spouse becomes suspicious, they intend to lie.


:iagree:

My wife serially cheated for years and lied to me every time I had any suspicion. Stared straight in my eyes and lied with no stress, no emotion, Nothing. Cold.


----------



## totallyunexpected (Nov 21, 2012)

My test for empathy on my husband:

He sees how Dday1 and Dday 2 crashes my world. I fall apart. I am an emotional wreck. He continues his behavior - albeit he is more careful. He "is sorry" but total remorse is not there. Defensiveness overrides all.

Dday 3 I find a search for strip clubs while we are supposedly reconciling. I am not hurt nearly as much as the first rounds. I've built armor around my soul by this point. He on the other hand, after I print the divorce papers and calmly explain I am done, becames a TOTAL EMOTIONAL WRECK. He is trying to do everything possible to save our marriage at this point. He's finally changed and is doing all the right things. (Though I've given up on believing a happy future is possible together.)

Lesson: He does not have empathy - the ability to experience the emotions of another. His behavior ONLY changes when his personal pain increases. His behavior was unrelated to another's pain. 

That said, he's of the serial sort.


----------



## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> I think there are different kinds of cheater. If I lump them into two groups...
> 
> 1) Serial Cheaters...
> 
> 2) I'm not sure what name to give this group.. they tend to be people who never thought they would cheat. *They had no intention of cheating...* until something goes not quite right in the marriage for them. They get to a point where they feel that *their needs are not being met.. and they turn very selfish*. They stop caring about their spouse or meeting the spouse's needs. While they might have had empathy for their spouse to start with that's lost with their selfishness. These folks often *suffer a lot of guilt for their cheating so on some level they know what they are doing is very wrong.*


My fww was a serial cheater 3OM when finally caught with proof.

EG, you are spot on about the guilt. While she could push it back very well, it manifested with physical effects like weight loss, sleep loss, use of anti-depressants. She told me inside she was going crazy. She even said, _"I knew what I was doing was very wrong, I felt trapped, can't tell the truth, can't stop." 
_
Crazy Train indeed.


----------



## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

The root of *all *evil deeds is selfishness.

Selfishness is a by-product of the inability to empathize.

Evil<---> selfishness<---> lack of empathy 

There is significant evidence that the ability to empathize is genetic, and as much as 30% of the global population lacks the ability to some extent. In other words, their brains are not wired that way.

Trying to get a non-empath to understand empathy is like trying to describe color to a blind person. Good luck.


----------



## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

Cheating is all about selfishness. They refuse to dispose of us the "right" way by divorcing us then dating. So weak, they either want to eat cake or have somewhere, or someone to have a soft landing on. 

I have no idea if my ex wife feels empathy, I think she feels guilty for what she did, leaving me and her daughter to shack up. She drinks quite a bit more and periodically texts me how sorry she is. But, her selfishness is her motivating force. Vows, promises, none of it means anything to her.


----------



## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

totallyunexpected said:


> My test for empathy on my husband:
> 
> He sees how Dday1 and Dday 2 crashes my world. I fall apart. I am an emotional wreck. He continues his behavior - albeit he is more careful. He "is sorry" but total remorse is not there. Defensiveness overrides all.
> 
> ...


You have encapsulated what I have been trying to express to myself and my ex wife perfectly.

Their actions are governed 100% by selfishness. If that coincides with someone else, then whomever that is gets a great time. If it doesn't then they have an excuse.


----------



## old_soldier (Jul 17, 2012)

Chris989 said:


> You have encapsulated what I have been trying to express to myself and my ex wife perfectly.
> 
> Their actions are governed 100% by selfishness. If that coincides with someone else, then whomever that is gets a great time. If it doesn't then they have an excuse.


Not only does it show a lack of empathy, it also shows a lack of self respect for the guilty party, no respect for the betrayed, it shows a lack of trustwothiness, zero integrity, almost a sociopathic tendency. People in affairs could care less how the betrayed feels until they are caught, and sometimes, not even then.

Sometimes they will get a guilty streak running through them, confess, but show confusion when the betrayed does not accept their crap. 

This is not empathy.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

old_soldier said:


> Not only does it show a lack of empathy, it also shows a lack of self respect for the guilty party, no respect for the betrayed, it shows a lack of trustwothiness, zero integrity, almost a sociopathic tendency. People in affairs could care less how the betrayed feels until they are caught, and sometimes, not even then.
> 
> Sometimes they will get a guilty streak running through them, confess, but show confusion when the betrayed does not accept their crap.
> 
> This is not empathy.


Is it possible they have no empathy with the self? That is to say, have no empathy with themselves, either?:scratchhead:


----------



## southsideirish (Mar 18, 2013)

old_soldier said:


> Not only does it show a lack of empathy, it also shows a lack of self respect for the guilty party, no respect for the betrayed, it shows a lack of trustwothiness, zero integrity, almost a sociopathic tendency. People in affairs could care less how the betrayed feels until they are caught, and sometimes, not even then.
> 
> Sometimes they will get a guilty streak running through them, confess, but show confusion when the betrayed does not accept their crap.
> 
> This is not empathy.


This is my WW exactly. Not sorry for the affair , sorry for making it all do messy. When confronted, wasn't willi g to do NC, didn't want to lose her "dear friend". Zero empathy or understanding for what she has done to me of our family. Zero empathy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Penny_Lane (Nov 2, 2012)

Correct - zero empathy. And if they get caught, it's false empathy. They're more concerned with themselves. And they're more concerned with keeping the situation under control, so the betrayed partner doesn't fly off the handle and tell the whole family what's been going on or worse yet confront the mistress/dude who was involved.
In fact I'd say they have affairs out of some kind of twisted revenge/entitlement thing.

People who do this, whether it's serial or not, believe they have a right to. They are not capable of thinking of you. Afterall it was because of you that they did it, in their minds.
It's a form of emotional abuse.


----------



## ALWAYS TRYING (Mar 2, 2013)

Wow. Ok. . I am slowly waking up. He can't be thinking about me. It's all about him. Because he is selfish. Insert lots of adjectives. Then when I say enough already he says what did I do wrong. So no empathy from him. He has no idea what his cheating does to ME. I'm a wreck and he is having fun with wh ores. 

Typing that out helped me. Thanks everyone for listening.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

maincourse99 said:


> Cheating is all about selfishness. They refuse to dispose of us the "right" way by divorcing us then dating. So weak, they either want to eat cake or have somewhere, or someone to have a soft landing on.
> 
> I have no idea if my ex wife feels empathy, I think she feels guilty for what she did, leaving me and her daughter to shack up. She drinks quite a bit more and periodically texts me how sorry she is. But, her selfishness is her motivating force. Vows, promises, none of it means anything to her.


But if they divorce us, they lose us and they don't want that. Cake eating...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

ALWAYS TRYING said:


> Wow. Ok. . I am slowly waking up. He can't be thinking about me. It's all about him. Because he is selfish. Insert lots of adjectives. Then when I say enough already he says what did I do wrong. So no empathy from him. He has no idea what his cheating does to ME. I'm a wreck and he is having fun with wh ores.
> 
> Typing that out helped me. Thanks everyone for listening.


I don't think they have the ability to place themselves in the BS' shoes. It's all about them... Even when they're found out they'll try to justify their actions (if only in their own minds) by blame shifting.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> I don't think they have the ability to place themselves in the BS' shoes. It's all about them... Even when they're found out they'll try to justify their actions (if only in their own minds) by blame shifting.


But when they see how devastated their BS is, then some empathy is displayed ir shown. Can be too late in some cases.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

Maybe some have a total lack. 

Maybe some just have a short in the circuit.


----------



## Enamored (Dec 25, 2009)

Can the betrayed spouse does not take atleast wee bit responsibility. Eg my wife has completely blocked me out. No touch no words of affection , nothing. I live in a society where families and kids would be devastated with D word. Can I be blamed here if I stray .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Enamored said:


> Can the betrayed spouse does not take atleast wee bit responsibility. Eg my wife has completely blocked me out. No touch no words of affection , nothing. I live in a society where families and kids would be devastated with D word. Can I be blamed here if I stray .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I could not blame you. 

However, this link might be of some use to you http://www.bestindiansites.com/wedding/marriage-counsellor.html


----------



## carolinadreams (Nov 30, 2012)

When my wife went off the rails, she was definitely empathy impaired.


----------



## verpin zal (Feb 23, 2013)

Wording on the topic begs the question -

"Hey, what happened to "Your spouse's adultery is never your fault"?"

Are we having second thoughts as to the BS' incapabilities?

[Incapabilities expanded = WS' refusal to communicate, express the expectations from a relationship, mindset to find greener grass, and you know what else.]


----------



## arked (Mar 2, 2013)

My WW has no ideal she hurt me or so she acts. She is not sorry for the affair, not sorry for anything. She is going to a different church, acting as nothing ever happened. We live in a small town and everyone here knows what happened. From what I gather she wants everyone to believe her affair was my fault. Zero empathy.


----------



## Vanilla Tree (Mar 10, 2013)

My WH has never been able to see how his actions - any actions - affect other people. He has a narrow vision, self confessed selfishness. 

So to answer the original question - for my WH the answer is yes.


----------



## old_soldier (Jul 17, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> But when they see how devastated their BS is, then some empathy is displayed ir shown. Can be too late in some cases.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No MATT, when they are caught, in most cases they wonder what all the fuss is about. "Can't you just get over it and move on?" or "I am sorry", or "I didn't mean to hurt you". 

Well my questions are 1) what are you sorry for and 2) just exactly did you mean to do, and 3) what the frick did you think I would feel when I found out you were a cheating S_ _ T!? 

It's all crap MATT!

Empathy - NO
Self respect - NO
Interity - NO
Honourable - NO

They knew exactly how their actions would affect you, they knew how the betrayed would feel. IT JUST DIDN"T MATTER to them.


----------



## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> So... they do not consider the likely impact their affair/s will have on their BS.


Or they do, and just don't care.

Infidelity is baffling.


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

old_soldier said:


> No MATT, when they are caught, in most cases they wonder what all the fuss is about. "Can't you just get over it and move on?" or "I am sorry", or "I didn't mean to hurt you".
> 
> Well my questions are 1) what are you sorry for and 2) just exactly did you mean to do, and 3) what the frick did you think I would feel when I found out you were a cheating S_ _ T!?
> 
> ...


*Old Soldier: You hit the nail squarely on the head! *

And when my STBXW raises her eyebrows to discover that I have known about her "adulterific" misdeeds all along~ even from in its infancy in pre-separation, to present~ then I'll fully expect her to just make use of your stock answers!

And then I'll make use of your follow-up questions which should hit her in the craw, greatly when it's apparent that she can't even begin to honestly answer them.

*Then I'll hit her with the grand dame question of them all:*

*Dear, just one last question: what will be your family's reaction when they get to see the first-hand, unbiased evidence of the deception that you've used not only against me, but them as well?* *Well guess what, honey? Some of them will actually be receiving it in their mailboxes today!*


----------



## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

"I never meant to hurt you". That one kills me. So funny.


----------



## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

The-Deceived said:


> "I never meant to hurt you". That one kills me. So funny.


'I didn't think you'd ever have to know' is a constant refrain from my ex wife. She thinks this is somehow meaningful.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Chris989 said:


> 'I didn't think you'd ever have to know' is a constant refrain from my ex wife. She thinks this is somehow meaningful.


It's compartmentalisation. When the barriers between faithful spouse and cheating spouse are breached, it can cause problems, as they might just start to understand what they have done.


----------



## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

EleGirl said:


> I think there are different kinds of cheater. If I lump them into two groups...
> 
> 1) Serial Cheaters... these are people who just cheat because they think they are entitled. It's like a sport or something to them. With this attitude they probably never had empathy for the BS.. .not even when/if they were not cheating. They are users. They marry someone to get the benefits of marriage and have no intent of ever remaining monogamouns.
> 
> 2) I'm not sure what name to give this group.. they tend to be people who never thought they would cheat. They had no intention of cheating... until something goes not quite right in the marriage for them. They get to a point where they feel that their needs are not being met.. and they turn very selfish. They stop caring about their spouse or meeting the spouse's needs. While they might have had empthy for their spouse to start with that's lost with their selfishness. These folks often suffer a lot of guilt for their cheating so on some level they know what they are doing is very wrong.





RWB said:


> My fww was a serial cheater 3OM when finally caught with proof.
> 
> EG, you are spot on about the guilt. While she could push it back very well, it manifested with physical effects like weight loss, sleep loss, use of anti-depressants. She told me inside she was going crazy. She even said, _"I knew what I was doing was very wrong, I felt trapped, can't tell the truth, can't stop."
> _
> Crazy Train indeed.


Yes... Mine was a subset of group 2 with a mix of 1. Mayor of crazy town.

It was absolutely tearing her up inside... 6 OM/1 OW. She had empathy and guilt. So her methodology was to alleviate that guilt so what she was doing wasn’t “that bad”. She convinced herself I was the monster and doing all this stuff so she felt empty inside. So... She had that little voice telling her she was a rotten person and should not be doing this; And a louder voice screaming that I deserved what she was doing to the marriage in retaliation for (insert some exaggerated evil thing I was doing)... Seriously demented. 

Example; Loading the dishwasher my way instead of how she thought it should be WAS the same as not respecting her or giving a sh1t about what she wants... see how I was the devil? It’s easier to cheat on a horrible person.... (And cleaning the kitchen, but not her way, was a horrible thing to do to her)... It’s sort of insane empathy where she thought she knew what I thought and why and it was never for any good; She saw the worst in things.

And lol... part of my road to recovery was showing her what a proper monster should feel like; The old me was a boy scout. She misses that. Now, I'm firmly in the middle; Neither all evil or all good.

Lunacy/// crazy train.


----------



## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

Racer said:


> Yes... Mine was a subset of group 2 with a mix of 1. Mayor of crazy town.
> 
> It was absolutely tearing her up inside... 6 OM/1 OW. She had empathy and guilt. So her methodology was to alleviate that guilt so what she was doing wasn’t “that bad”. She convinced herself I was the monster and doing all this stuff so she felt empty inside. So... She had that little voice telling her she was a rotten person and should not be doing this; And a louder voice screaming that I deserved what she was doing to the marriage in retaliation for (insert some exaggerated evil thing I was doing)... Seriously demented.
> 
> ...


Racer, i can relate... the affair i caught my wife in was with her long lost college BF. Somehow after 30 years she saw him as her escape out of hell. They met for sex and she was caught up like a crazy person. She yelled and argued with me about everything (evil monster me). I too got yelled at about loading dishwasher, she even wanted to fight about where i put the trash can in the kitchen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------

