# Family fell apart, but no end to drama in sight



## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

I am going through a terrible family situation right now including a separation and probable divorce. I really don't know how to cope and what actions to take myself. The background is that I have been married for 20 years, with three children. The last seven or eight years have been very rough for us financially and also with arguing about parenting, but things have really come to a head the last two years. There have also been some great times, so I'm very torn up about this. We were previously separated for a few months two years ago with my wife taking the children to my in-laws, earlier last year for a couple of months, when I lived in an apartment short term, and now again for a few months, but this time with more serious legal proceedings.

A core issue is that my children have been completely out of control with no discipline. The two oldest have refused to go to school and physically attached me when I tried to force the issue. (The oldest when in high school and the second in middle school). My wife has never let me discipline them, yelling at me anytime I've tried to. We've tried therapy of many sorts, but she has never engaged in it openly, always blaming me for every problem, and insisting that I do more and more things to allow me to cope with the situation. I have done everything possible including talk therapy, psychiatric medication, and meditation, all at her insistence, and without reciprocal efforts. She eventually escalated to calling the police every time there was an argument in the house and getting a protective order to initiate the most recent separation. I have never laid a finger on anyone in the house. My lawyer said it would be impossible to fight the PFA given that no judge wants to take the responsibility to deny one. We wound up with a plea that the temporary order would be extended a whole year and could be expunged from my record eventually.

Despite the issues with the children, I have remained close to them and had visited them daily in the previous separations. My wife is now trying to keep them from me in a very controlling way. She included them on the PFA (except the oldest who is now 18). She is trying to insist on not allowing me to see them unless it is with my mother, who is 70 years old, works full time, and lives hours away. I am now actually living with my parents for the most part and working remotely, otherwise staying at hotels when I need to come back to town. I filed a custody case and the judge recognized my right to visits, but in court my wife is still trying to fight against each and every hour I get to spend with them with every maneuver possible. At the same time she has no shame in asking my mother to take the kids for all of their school breaks for several days at a time, when she knows I'll be with them. It's all about control and winning right now for her.

Despite all of this swirling around and her expressed desire for a divorce, she has not filed one. I suspect she won't for awhile because she only has a very low paying part time job and would never be able to afford her lifestyle without nearly 100% of my salary and my health insurance coverage, both of which she currently has. My salary is fairly modest and she was already overspending our means significantly, ringing up substantial debt. Child support and modest alimony wouldn't be nearly as good of a deal as she has now under the PFA. She has a college degree and held a good job right at the beginning of our marriage, but after losing that she never returned to working, even well after the youngest started school.

I am not sure what to do at this point about filing for divorce myself. Everything about this is so exhausting. Her behavior and posturing in court with the PFA and custody case give every indication that a divorce will be contentious and protracted with all sorts of drama. This all has become very expensive with respect to the lawyers, especially with the PFA in place forbidding any mediation. Part of me wants to wait her out and let some things unfold before I file. There are already indications that her poor parenting is being exposed (county agencies are involved). I also secretly hope that if she bottoms out she will come to her senses and seek a reconciliation with a truly open heart. However, maybe the divorce filing is a better way to force these issues, while also protecting myself from the financial train wreck she has become, and sooner rather than later.

I guess I'll try to take this one step at a time. I also have to deal with a job change that will put me in another state, slightly farther from my family compared to where I am now with my parents. I work in a very specialized field that makes such relocations necessary. I will be doing a lot of driving just to see my kids for a few hours every other weekend, but it will be worth it.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

Since you have the income that would allow it, I would file right away and stop her gravy train.


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## ChipperE (Nov 16, 2016)

Sounds to me like it's time for a reality check. File for divorce and begin to document EVERYTHING in regards to your children. Has she ever been contacted by the truancy courts for the school district? I would stay on top of their school attendance records and grades, which you have every right to. Prove she's unfit and take your children. Then bring them back to reality as well.

As far as your wife, shut her out. File for divorce and move on from her. She sounds like a train wreck.


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

Thanks. Doing everything you mentioned for the kids is my top priority. I didn't include many of the details of the insanity in the family in the post for the sake of the privacy of the kids, but things are going from bad to worse. The PFA action really sets me back on my heals a bit, but I recently met another guy in the same circumstance who was just given full custody of his daughter after things finally broke down for the mother. In time I think the tide will turn, but watching all this dysfunction right now is heartbreaking. I really need to embrace patience as much as I can.

My biggest regret now is not having taken a firmer stand two years ago when all this crap started. I allowed myself to be emotionally beaten down and blamed for all these problems for too long. To anyone else out there: If you are not violent, but your wife starts calling the police on you to shut you up and win arguments, don't stand for it. My story is where it will lead.


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

My first couple of posts were about how messed up my situation is, but now I have a more concrete question. What do all of you think about dating in my situation? Being shut off completely from my wife with the PFA, I have a strong desire for female companionship, and not just sexually. As I mentioned before I still have a deep desire for reconciliation, but that would only happen if my wife were to actually become apologetic, which she has never shown herself capable of being. Besides, even if we did reconcile, I'd feel like an affair would hold a fraction of the weight of the crap she's pulled on me. She has had me removed from my home in front of my children by men with guns, and has since been playing power and control games with my access to my kids. 

Be that as it may, this divorce is probably going to take forever and I'm doubting I want to wait that long. So my question is really what sort of situation should I look for in my next relationship given these realities. I'm 44 and still look and feel relatively young. I'm usually not interested in women more than 7 or 8 years younger than me, could also go a few years older. Should I find someone interested in a low level of commitment, or should I embrace an emotional connection? Should I avoid women with kids, or at least those with kids in the house? Should I embrace or avoid other divorced people? I feel like I can't take any more drama in my life, but I also want to find someone I can relate to.


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

I think you should just put yourself out there and see who you meet and don't over think it.

While it might be beneficial to avoid a woman with kids if you do that you're not going to have much of a base to work from.


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

Thanks for the supportive message. Probably isn't much I can do for the next couple of months, which is why I'm overthinking it. I'm living with my parents most of the time in one city, staying in hotels to see my kids in another, and about to move to another city in a couple of months. Probably can't really get going with anything until after I move and get settled a bit. I'm not the type have one night stands or really short-term flings.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

It is ok to put yourself out there, but to be honest it would be better if you focused on getting yourself out of the current mess you are in, work on yourself, work on getting the divorce, recording all that your wife does, getting the lawyer to help you get all ducks in a row. Bringing a girlfriend into all of this is not very good timing.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

You have things to deal with. 
Any woman you date is going to know that your baggage is going to be a priority, for a while at least. 
Date if you want, but be crystal clear about your situation. Date for fun, not for a serious relationship, because you're not ready for that level yet. Oh, and some women absolutely will not date a man unless he is completely divorced. 
Many women would not want the drama your children would obviously create. I know two women who are in love men that have seriously broken and [email protected] young adult children. They are both depressed and thinking of moving on. You talked about medications, so what exactly are they diagnosed with? I am very much in support of boot camp. I've seen unruly kids literally transform into respectful young people once they learn the world doesn't revolve around them. The bad behavior stems from their own fear and uncertainty, and intimidating you redirects it so they don't have to face it.


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

Satya. Thanks for your perspective on this. All three girls take melatonin to fall asleep. The oldest daughter has so many medicines she needs a pill sorter. She's on antidepressants, migraine medication, something to lengthen her cycle, and something for gut motility (might be more I can't think of). The middle one is on Guanfacine for ADHD and Lithium carbonate for mood stabilization. The youngest isn't on anything other than the melatonin, but there is talk of ADHD. I was also on antidepressents when I lived in that house, and they didn't do a damn thing for me but make me sleepy and gain weight. I'm off them now and doing much better. Just need an occasional lorazipam to deal with the anxiety triggered by all this crap.
Anyway, I think I'm in a bit of a conundrum because I'm a serious guy and really would want at least somewhat of a serious relationship, but I have all this baggage. I probably just need to start making new friends of both sexes and see what happens with any of the women. As these problems in the family progressed, I withdrew from all of my friendships and don't have a lot left. I'm isolated, alone, and worried all the time. I do have the closeness of my parents and sister, but I want more social interactions.


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

There is no limit to the crap going on in my family. Just found out that my wife opened a county protective case on one of my daughters. My daughter had already been receiving support from a county agency with in home therapists, but without a formal case. That agency informed me of this new case during my weekly check in with them. They claimed that my wife just wanted a higher level of service, which would be 24/7 with the case opened. The new service would be through another agency, and I have a feeling my wife is getting tired of the current one because they are starting to hold her accountable for her BS.

Anyway, the new agency called me today, and I figured out that it was about more than all that. They told me that they would be looking forward to seeing me and checking in on us during my weekend custodial visits with my children. So my wife just used a dirty trick to get my visits supervised, despite the judge denying that request of hers. It's unbelievable! First she fought against every hour of visitation when the judge directed our lawyers to help us come up with a visitation schedule, and now she pulls this. I also don't know what justification she used to get this case opened. The worker got a little defensive when I asked that question and said "all I can say is that it is about your daughter's behavioral issues". When people start sentences with that phrase, something is being hidden.

Meanwhile, the household seems to be falling apart every time I check in with my scheduled calls. The kids play video games all day, including age-inappropriate ones, which they don't even stop for a few minutes as they talk to me. I have checked in with their teachers and there are severe problems at school. Scores of unexcused absences, disruptive behavior, falling performance. All stuff we were dealing with before I left (largely because my hands were always tied), but now much more frequent and completely over the top.

I am so worried about my children. I am having trouble sleeping and concentrating on my work. I feel like I need to get them out of that house, but it's an uphill battle between the false PFA and my need to move out of state to stay employed. Even still I hope the judge will listen to me and consider the information I will present at the next hearing. My oldest, who's in college, doesn't even want to go back to that house for her breaks anymore, but wants to spend some of them with me. The middle one is in dire need of help (the one with the county case). Does anyone have experience with or knowledge of therapeutic boarding schools or other ways to get her out of this mess? I don't have much money, so it would have to be something aided by insurance or assistance. I am worried that she is going to become a drug addict/runaway type if another couple of years of this goes on. I'm loosing my ability to cope with my fears.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

mjsquatch said:


> My first couple of posts were about how messed up my situation is, but now I have a more concrete question. What do all of you think about dating in my situation? Being shut off completely from my wife with the PFA, I have a strong desire for female companionship, and not just sexually. As I mentioned before I still have a deep desire for reconciliation, but that would only happen if my wife were to actually become apologetic, which she has never shown herself capable of being. Besides, even if we did reconcile, I'd feel like an affair would hold a fraction of the weight of the crap she's pulled on me. She has had me removed from my home in front of my children by men with guns, and has since been playing power and control games with my access to my kids.
> 
> Be that as it may, this divorce is probably going to take forever and I'm doubting I want to wait that long. So my question is really what sort of situation should I look for in my next relationship given these realities. I'm 44 and still look and feel relatively young. I'm usually not interested in women more than 7 or 8 years younger than me, could also go a few years older. Should I find someone interested in a low level of commitment, or should I embrace an emotional connection? Should I avoid women with kids, or at least those with kids in the house? Should I embrace or avoid other divorced people? I feel like I can't take any more drama in my life, but I also want to find someone I can relate to.


With the mess you life is in right now I would completely avoid dating, at least until you decide to divorce, and the divorce is well under way. If you want company, get out there are do things, sports, hobbies, clubs etc. 

As for should you avoid other divorced people, well most of your sort of age group will probably be divorced anyway, or will have had long relationships that ended. We were both divorced after long first marriages, and he is a great man.
If you date now you are expecting a lady to take on your drama.

I would concentrate on your children who you wife seems to have messed up, be the best dad you can, get the legal stuff done and then think about dating is my advise.


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

Thanks Diana. I am realizing that the dating is way too premature. It was an impulse to want to do that to fill the void of loneliness I'm experiencing, but I realize it would actually be quite selfish at this point. Thanks for the tips for when I am ready. Also, I did start going to the gym again a couple of weeks ago and that is helping a little.

The legal stuff with the kids is so much worse than I ever imagined, and I just need to work really hard on that. My wife's outrageous behavior and horrible parenting will catch up with her. It's just a matter of time, if not at the next hearing, probably at another one in the future. I'm just really scared about the damage that continues to build in the meantime. I also fear this will go on for years before it starts to get better.

After the custody issues are resolved I will have to see what kind of relationship I can have with her or any one else. At this point I don't know if I'll never speak to her again, become cordial, become friends, or reconcile. I am also really worried that she is becoming mentally ill and will eventually need help herself (there's more than the bad parenting and behavior toward me that makes me think that). Anyway, all of that's not important now. I feel like the very lives of my children are at stake. I'm just sickened and heartbroken.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

OP, I'm sorry but you have no business dating at the moment - you're not even legally separated! Very unfair to any woman you would meet. Please get this sorted and THEN date.

Why on earth would you consider reconciliation with a woman who takes out unnecessary protection orders against you and then actively withholds your children from you? Wtf??? That I cannot work out. Women like her are disgusting human beings. The damage she is doing to those kids is long lasting and irreparable.

You need to file for legal separation, and get your finances completely separated from hers. She is no longer your responsibility nor your problem. Once that's all sorted, file for divorce.


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

Thanks frusdil,
Like I said in my last post, I realize now that the dating idea was not a good one. Also at the moment I really don't think I will reconcile or really want that. I still hope there is something in her that might change, but I doubt it will ever happen. That's all I mean by that, but I know the chances are slim to none.

Unfortunately my state has no legal separation. I will eventually file for a divorce given the trajectory of events. My lawyer advised me not to do it too quickly on the heels of the PFA and custody case, as it would look a bit angry and vengeful. The custody case will need to get cleared up in the divorce anyway, so he recommended just working on that for now. It's my priority anyway.

There is also a two year period to contest a divorce in my state. I won't be surprised if she actually uses that to string this out longer. She doesn't have a full time job, and is showing no movement towards getting one. She has terribly paying contract work that she does from home, and she teaches a few classes a week outside the home. Both activities cause more chaos and problems than they solve and are way past the point of diminishing returns. 

At this point I don't even really care about the financial issues so much for my own comfort. I can live with my parents as I am now, or in a cheap rented room as I will when I start my new job. I just want to bring her to reality, both with the custody and the finances once the divorce goes forward. It's so overdue, but it will happen at least with the custody for sure. With the finances you never know, her parents might step in and continue the enabling, or perhaps she can latch on to another guy.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

mj, you need to be documenting everything. Keep a hand-written journal every day when stuff comes up. Include all of your interactions with your children and all of the things you do for them. Include all the crazy things your wife says and does. Include things your kids do and say. When it comes to court, you need to be able to prove your wife is the crazy one.

I would also consider consulting with another attorney to get a second opinion. The protection order concerns me. Also, the strategy of waiting to file for divorce concerns me. Your wife earns little money, so the longer you are married the more you are on the hook for alimony, and the less you'll have for yourself for living and for retirement. I would consider moving to a state with a short divorce. After 6 months, depending on the state, you would have legal standing to file for divorce.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Thor said:


> I would also consider consulting with another attorney to get a second opinion. The protection order concerns me. Also, the strategy of waiting to file for divorce concerns me. Your wife earns little money, so the longer you are married the more you are on the hook for alimony, and the less you'll have for yourself for living and for retirement. I would consider moving to a state with a short divorce. After 6 months, depending on the state, you would have legal standing to file for divorce.


^^This. Surely theres a way you can separate your finances now? What's to stop her going out and applying for a credit card or a loan and you'll end up being responsible for paying it off even when you're divorced.

You may be able to live with your parents etc., but why should you have to?


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

Unfortunately the PFA stipulates that I must maintain the residence despite me not living there. As far as the credit cards go, I tried to start calling to cancel them, but some had her as the primary holder and wouldn't allow it, so its pointless. I don't think she could open more with her low income thankfully. Right now its walking a tightrope. If I assert my right to live in a better apartment, I know the credit card balances will just go up faster and we'll get closer to bankruptcy. 

There is also the spiteful route I could take. When I mentioned to my lawyer that I had to move out of state to stay employed in my field, he suggested that I not and just go on unemployment and/or work at a low wage job to screw her over with the potential child support and alimony. I chose not to. I want to have a productive and meaningful life and not be hanging around in this small town where my reputation is trashed and I have to worry about getting arrested for bumping into her at the grocery store.

The false PFA just screws me big time and its something I have to accept and cope with. All I feel like I have the power to do right now is expose her on the horrible parenting, provide evidence that the PFA was filed in bad faith, and bide my time with the divorce. 

Nothing about this is fair. I'm moving 7 hours away so I can pay for the family's lifestyle, while she stays put and does a bit of at-home work that contributes little. I'll be working full time and driving back to see the kids every couple weeks when there is no reason they even need to even be there. I would gladly pay for her to have a separate apartment in my new town, even more than required by law. I just want to see my kids more and break them away from the terrible trajectory they are on. Its breaking my heart.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

If she is the primary holder of a card, tell the issuer to take you off as a responsible party. Make the card hers only.

You can use separation or filing divorce to create a barrier in your finances. After that date you are no longer responsible for anything she does financially. There may be a mechanism for you making a public announcement, i.e. paying for a public notice in your local news paper classifieds section, which says you are no longer financially responsible for anything she does. Your lawyer can advise you on how to make this happen in your location. Usually filing separation or divorce will do it.

You should listen to your attorney in matters of strategy. A temporary arrangement which makes for a better longterm outcome may be the smart move.

Since you're taking the route of moving away from your kids 7 hours, and working a higher wage job, you're setting yourself up to lose in the settlement. I would fight to make any terms in the decree easily amendable. If your income goes down, if you move closer, if she gets a better paying job, if she moves away. Any of those things should trigger a simple recalculation in your favor. Most decrees are inflexible. Try to avoid that.


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

Thor. Thanks for the advice. I'll ask my lawyer if any of that can work. I live in a state with no form of legal separation, which makes things harder.
My new job is only slightly higher paying than the one I'm at now, neither of which are tremendously great. I have been a little underemployed for my education level, so its more likely that my income will go up in the future if anything. So from that perspective, it might be good to do the divorce now. 
My field of employment is very specialized and heavily dependent on staying active (PhD scientist in a narrow field), so getting a job closer by just isn't an option unless I give up on my career. That would ruin my future income potential and do too much damage to my dignity to be worth anything I'd save in the divorce settlement. That's the rub of my problem.


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## BURNT KEP (Oct 3, 2012)

Just file for divorce asap then whatever she racks up after is hers. And I would of taken you lawyers advice and stayed put.


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

BURNT KEP said:


> Just file for divorce asap then whatever she racks up after is hers. And I would of taken you lawyers advice and stayed put.


I appreciate the advice. On the first point I will likely follow. I probably right after the custody is finalized, which should be in about a month.

On the second I simply can't. I am 3 months away from being laid off from my job in an out of the way college town, with no other prospect than 6 months of unemployment insurance followed by something even worse after that. The job 7 hours away is the best closest thing I could find. It sucks but I can't afford the stay put option. 

I also think it goes against all the 180 advice I see posted on this site. My wife, my children, and her family need to see me as a success and not some beaten down loser. (And I need that too, more importantly). My career allows me to travel, meet people, and keep my mind stimulated in many ways. So, while the staying put option would hurt my wife more than the what I'm doing, the only real accomplishment would be spite, because I'd suffer disproportionately even more in the long run. She'll likely wind up dependent on her parents whatever I do, but if I live well and have a meaningful life I'll get better sooner. In my view the new job is pretty much the only hopeful thing going on in my life.


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

Everything with this situation is difficult and full of drama. As I mentioned before, my wife opened a CPS case on my daughter, with me wondering if it was to get my visits supervised. I met with them today. They were friendly and I cooperated. They assured me that there were no allegations against me, and that my wife just wanted the extra help from the social workers. However, the social worker also did say that I'd be expected to have them come along for a portion of my weekend visits, which are now only a few hours every other Saturday and Sunday thanks to my wife's hardball negotiations. Don't know whether or not to take this as a manipulation by my wife or to accept the explanation at face value.

The caseworker also brought up an interesting point about my PFA. She was wondering why it couldn't be modified to allow communication through email only about the kids. It's making me wonder if my lawyer negotiated it the way he did to drive up the need for all the expensive communication through him. I wasn't even allowed to be in the room when that deal was made, and felt like I had no choice. At the time the only issue he brought up was the need to make sure the order stayed as a temporary one so that there was no finding of fault, but I wonder if some limited communication could have been worked in. Maybe it's something I should bring up now? The legal fees have been ridiculous just from trying to do basic co-parenting communication, collect tax documents etc. I can't imagine what the divorce will cost under these circumstances, as there is a lot to go disentangle from 20 years of marriage.

Speaking of paperwork. i asked my wife for copies of documents I needed to do some administrative stuff. Interestingly she gave me photocopies of the kids birth certificates, but the original marriage certificate. I'm wondering if there is a subtle message there, as if she's saying she doesn't want it and it means nothing to her anymore. I don't know, is it required for the divorce filing? Maybe she's trying to put that responsibility on me instead of taking it on herself? I'm probably reading way to much into things, but that tends to happen when your living behind the wall of a restraining order. Of course she forgot a couple of the things I asked for, so there will be the need for more expensive emails to the lawyers. I'm getting so sick of this.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

You are in an untenable situation.

There is no wiggle room, no hope on the horizon. Hope, as far as I can see lives in Canada.

Your marriage is toast.
Your children are toast. Their situation is tragic. Your [well meaning] hands are tied. Tied by your wife and tied by the courts, the Law. Your kids resent you. Resent life. Bitter kids.
Your options are toast. You have one option--->Make yourself happy. Cut all ties with your family.

File for divorce, if you have not already. 

Move out of state. Few on this site, TAM will agree on this move. Let her..and you go bankrupt. It is only money. Eventually, you will have to pay something. Live frugally, save some money for when the financial hammer strikes you.

Send your wife a check every month. The amount? Something fair, something affordable. They cannot quite say you totally abandoned them. You are sending them money. Keep your cancelled checks for proof.

Your kids? They are presently "toast". When they move out of the house you can reconnect and help them, if you choose, and if they want a dad. 

Live for you. No one else will.

Life can be hard.


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

SunCMars. Thanks for your message. I feel like you're one of very few people who have looked at my situation and really gets how unlivable it is. I agree that the money and potential bankruptcy are the least of my concerns. The thing is, this false protective order gives her victory in every way possible, including most importantly the perception battle. I can now be fully blamed for the break up of the marriage when family and friends learn about it. I can also be blamed for all the related difficulties (the kids' behavioral problems, the financial troubles, etc.)

Even my own family, while supportive, buys into the crap at some level, saying things like, maybe its for the best you can't speak to each other now, etc. No it's not. We can't even decide whether our kids will do an extracurricular activity without bleepn letters going back and forth between lawyers. My kids are treated to big dramatic scenes where they are transferred between us at a gas station where my mother-in-law comes separately to keep an eye on things. Meanwhile my 9 year-old asks when I can come to house and play her favorite video game with her.

I read other posts on this forum and actually wish my wife had an affair and left me for another man as often happens. At least then it would have been clear to the world who was destroying the marriage. I just sit in the shadows, afraid to talk to people I was close to, doubting anyone will believe me about what happened. Even if they might, it's a story that requires a good couple of hours to go through and explain. I'm too emotionally drained to keep having those conversations.

I think I will do better when I start my job out of state in April. I'll be able to meet some new people and get to forge some relationships that aren't tainted by this toxic mess.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

You are best off having no contact with her especially while the protection order is hanging over your head. She can spin ANYTHING whether true or not into a bigger legal mess. It's not fair and sucks but these types of things are over abused in divorce/separation. Even once it's lifted your beat not contacting her, yeah it means lawyers and such but your liable to end up right back in a mess as you can never trust her again. 

Your best bet is to pull back, let her implode, child services or county help will see more and more she is either unstable/unfit. I'd also start looking for a different lawyer. I don't agree about not filing for divorce now nor how they are approaching your protective order. Simply put if you file for divorce you are showing the courts you don't want contact with her so why would she need these protection orders.


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

Honcho, thanks for that perspective on filing now. No one has mentioned that to me that it would actually look better with regards to the PFA, regarding looking like I'm moving on. I think my full compliance and leaving town also helps. I don't even look in her direction when we do our custodial exchanges at the gas station.

I understand than now that all this PFA crap has happened it is best to have no contact. I guess my last post was just a lament about how unfair it all is and what the psychological and social damage to me has been. I wouldn't go back to anything beyond discussing basic parenting and financial issues over email if it were dropped. Sadly you are right, she can't be trusted anymore. I feel as if I am already divorced in a sense because that bond is completely shattered and I don't see how it can be repaired. An alcoholic can go to AA, a cheater can ask forgiveness and go no contact with their lover, but what could my wife even do to regain trust if she wanted to? 

I also wonder how she can be so blind to the cruelty of this? Does she actually believe that I am an abuser? Did the people in the local domestic violence office talk her into that mindset? Or is she just a manipulative psychopath who doesn't think at all about my perspective and feelings? When we were in counseling more than one therapist made it clear to us that while I was yelling too much to cope with living in constant frustration, I was not abusive. Anger and abuse are not the same thing. I did not demean and try to control people in the family with anger. I did not threaten people. I was slowly being driven crazy from dealing with constant irrationality and disrespect for my parental authority. Near the end I was't even yelling in frustration anymore, I was mostly crying. I've recently read about gas-lighting, and that really seems to describe what happened to me.

So I really don't know going forward what kind of relationship I can have with my wife. As parents of the same children we will by definition have to have some sort of one. Will we ever be able to communicate at all? Will we be able to be friendly EXs someday. Like I said, right now I can't even look in her direction without feeling ill, and a decent amount of time (3 months) has passed. With time and clarity my hatred and disgust are growing, not subsiding.


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

I have come up with a plan that I'd like to air out here. All the advice I'm getting here indicates that I should file a divorce ASAP. I do want one now, but am afraid to get the ball rolling. Mostly because my wife has exhibited horrible high conflict tendencies, resulting in high legal fees just for the PFA and custody, which aren't even done yet. God only knows what a divorce could ring up to be. I also feel bad because my parents are paying for it and will probably have to delay their retirement as a result. There are also the travel costs and time off work from the new job if I need to attend hearings. At the same time the wife gets unlimited access to her free domestic violence attorney. 

So here's the thought. I'm moving out of state and can file there after 1 year of residency. Even if my wife were to file in her state, I could block the divorce for up to 2 years there. So I'm thinking that I should just wait it out and if necessary manipulate things to get the filing in my new state. That way she'll have to put up with all of the out of state conveniences, perhaps without a free lawyer. The PFA should also be over and expunged by then, so I could possibly go before a new judge without all of that baggage. I'd also love to deny all of the lawyers and judges currently making all of this money off of my pain some of the spoils they think they're entitled to. The only downside is the wait, but honestly I don't think I can emotionally deal with the pressures of a high conflict divorce now anyway.

I'm also thinking of wiping my butt with our marriage certificate and mailing it to her, but I guess that would be a violation of the PFA.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

I would look at what the differences are in the divorce laws between the two states. If there is no major advantage to the new state's laws, I'd file asap. She's going to react poorly no matter when or where you file. If you wait for her to file you will be behind the curve once again.


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

The state we are in has no fault divorce only by mutual consent for 2 years after separation. So either of us could file, but the other could block it just by not responding. My new state will allow me to file after 1 year residency. There are also advantages in the new state regarding alimony that would benefit me. 
So I'm really thinking now that I'll wait it out for the new state. She is already using high conflict tactics with her free "domestic violence attorney" that have maximized my legal fees and travel expenses (coming from my aging parents). It will be a long wait, but it will be glorious to see her have to deal with the out of state filing. There will be no free lawyer, she'll have to travel for court appearances, and there might be no alimony. She'll have a complete meltdown. It will be well worth waiting and paying her bills in the mean time. 
I also suspect the time and cost wouldn't really be any less if I were to file in her state now and she allowed it to proceed. She'd argue over every little detail of the settlement and force me to come back for scores of court appearances. Her attitude might be different if the shoe was on the other foot. She dictated the terms of the separation, but it looks like I can dictate the playing field for the divorce if I'm patient. There could be no greater revenge on a control freak like her.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Mjs, have you started the new job? How is that going? 
I think instead of playing games with your STBXW focus on yourself and your kids and what is best for them. Revenge may be sweet but what is the point, you can rise above all this and be the better man. You need to keep her somewhat sweet for your visits etc. When she sees you moving on, no regrets, no emotion (plotting revenge means u still care), happy with your new life, that will be the best revenge.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Get an attorney, file for divorce with no specific timeline, then let your lawyer manage the cases activity until such time that the wheels come off of your W's little red wagon with CPS and the like!

Sorry to see you going through all of this! 

Please be assured that all of you will remain in my fervent prayers!*


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

aine said:


> Mjs, have you started the new job? How is that going?
> I think instead of playing games with your STBXW focus on yourself and your kids and what is best for them. Revenge may be sweet but what is the point, you can rise above all this and be the better man. You need to keep her somewhat sweet for your visits etc. When she sees you moving on, no regrets, no emotion (plotting revenge means u still care), happy with your new life, that will be the best revenge.


Aine, Haven't started the job yet. I will in a month. I think it will really help because I'm kind of in limbo now with a lot of time to stew about things. I do agree that moving forward positively for myself is the most important part of the equation. Some of my recent posts have been reflective of a lot of anger I still have. I will stay respectful and maintain 100% compliance with the PFA. Thanks for your reminder to stay civil.

However, finding out that I can manipulate the potential divorce to be in my new state is a godsend that I will take full advantage of. I won't have to be nasty about it or hire an aggressive attorney or anything like that. I'll just calmly proceed with my life and my legal strategy. Since her PFA filing, everything has been on her terms so far, but the new state changes everything. It's not so much about revenge and spite as it is empowering myself in the situation. She is still dangerously unhinged and this can help me put the brakes on her destructive spiral.

As far as the kids go, that is the troubling part. I'm trying to hope that they will do well with the new situation, but I doubt they will. That is drama I can't really avoid and it could all blow up further even before a divorce is finalized.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Sounds like filing in the new state makes sense. But ... be sure to consult with your atty on how all of this will work. Consider various situations such as her filing before you do. Or, her making worse allegations against you. How would things work if you file in your current state in order to put her in a holding pattern, but then withdrawing the divorce in a year and then filing in your new state?

Basically, be very strategic! Figure out what all the possible twists and turns might be, and then make sure you have a contingency for them all.

Sun Tzu. Read him if you haven't. Also read "The Prince" by Machiavelli. Show strength when you feel weak, show weakness where you are strong. Give out false information to your enemy. Gather as much intel as you can about her. Indicate an attack in one place when in fact you will attack in another. Lull the enemy to complacency. Make agreements which cost you nothing but gain you something.

She's playing hardball with you. You must be prepared and take the initiative.


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

Thanks Thor. Your points are excellent and I will be sure to consult my lawyer. I also have a lawyer in my family I can consult to be sure I don't get a biased answer based on his desire to keep my business. 

I think the biggest roll of the dice with the out of state filing concerns my wife's attorney situation. Having to travel for court appearances and losing her free lawyer might bring her to reality and reduce her litigiousness about everything. However, she might use joint funds/credit to pay for her legal case rather than ask her parents for help as I have. It still might be worth it to get out of the kangaroo court I'm in now.

The alimony differences in the states are potentially quite significant. In her state she can claim child custody, support during my grad school, and possibly even abuse as grounds for alimony. The first two factors don't apply in the new state and the abuse charge will be difficult to use if the PFA is expunged by then. 

Your comment about new phony charges being brought up is also well taken. I do worry that might happen if she starts to lose on other fronts. I'm strictly following the PFA and documenting everything. Thinking rationally and strategically is difficult with all I've been through, but I'm getting there.


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## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

mjsquatch said:


> Thanks Thor. Your points are excellent and I will be sure to consult my lawyer. I also have a lawyer in my family I can consult to be sure I don't get a biased answer based on his desire to keep my business.
> 
> I think the biggest roll of the dice with the out of state filing concerns my wife's attorney situation. Having to travel for court appearances and losing her free lawyer might bring her to reality and reduce her litigiousness about everything. However, she might use joint funds/credit to pay for her legal case rather than ask her parents for help as I have. It still might be worth it to get out of the kangaroo court I'm in now.
> 
> ...



OP your wife is playing hardball...take no prisoners...do anything to win. you are playing appeasement. good luck with that.

you need a lawyer who is well versed in these type of tactics. she is your enemy, not your friend.


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

It's not in my nature to think and act like I'm at war, but I'm realizing I have to. Marriage is really the opposite of that, and I was completely committed to it. It's hard to break that mindset.

What I'm thinking now is more or less a classic rope-a dope strategy. She's firing everything she can at me now in full fury, but I'm laying back and exposing her weaknesses as she overextends her case. I'll strike back hard and decisively when the time comes. Fighting back with equal or greater fury now would just prove her points about my "anger problems", "mental issues" etc.. Just standing up for myself with dignity is what's best in the short term. I need to get myself attuned to assessing the right time to strike back and what tactics to use. It's not all about money and revenge at this point. Its about vindication and accountability. Her insertion of the abuse card into this makes it so. Her mishandling of the children underscores this even more.


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

mjsquatch said:


> Everything with this situation is difficult and full of drama. As I mentioned before, my wife opened a CPS case on my daughter, with me wondering if it was to get my visits supervised. I met with them today. They were friendly and I cooperated. They assured me that there were no allegations against me, and that my wife just wanted the extra help from the social workers. However, the social worker also did say that I'd be expected to have them come along for a portion of my weekend visits


CPS may appear friendly and cooperative, however know this. CPS is not your friend. If they are going to be spending their valuable time supervising your visits then they suspect a problem and they will try to find it. Again that's their job and we're not talking about rocket scientists we're talking about 9-5 caseworkers of questionable intelligence that are known to make mistakes that destroy families and rip children from their parents. Anything you say or do during those CPS supervised visits can and probably will be used against you.


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

Today was the first day in 4 months i did not cry. It was the first time in about 3 years I did not feel anxious. It is unbelievable. I think the time of no contact has finally settled into emotional clarity. With the distance I also think I know what is wrong with my spouse, which is giving me a sense of power and relief. The answer to my "what the hell happened" question seems like it is finally being revealed to me after much research and reflection.

She is a covert narcissist, whose false projection is that of a dedicated, loving, and perfect parent. My therapist confirmed that I am likely correct about this. All of the crazy arguments we had about parenting differences were not coming from a place of mutual sincere concern about the children. They were happening because she was insisting on doing things that were for her own emotional gratification rather than teaching discipline, instilling values, correcting misguided behaviors, providing for normal emotional development, or any other legitimate needs of the children. Children learn to be highly manipulative under such conditions and all hell breaks lose. 

Marriage therapists and others had told us that there was a difference in parenting philosophies and that we needed to learn to get together and work on the same page. Now I know better. Normal people settle differences with rational discourse and can compromise. That never happened for us at all. 

The worst thing about a person like this is that they can fool people for years and years, as she did with me. The protective order was just narcissistic discard in its truest form. She needed to do it to protect her image as the virtuous and loving parent by painting me in the worst light possible. Her complete lack of empathy for all involved is further telling (leaving the kids at home to watch me be evicted by the sheriff).

She is a sick person, and now I really know and understand what the sickness is and how to rise above it. Other people know about it too. I think that one of our daughter's therapists has caught onto my wife's true nature, at least enough to blow her cover. The county workers and the therapists are all communicating and they are seeing the problems. Little by little more friends and acquaintances are showing support for me. She's not winning the battle to rewrite my history that she started with the protective order. My children still love me, many people still respect me, and most importantly I now have regained my self-respect. What a difference that makes. I feel like the 180 everyone talks about just magically happened in the span of about 24 hours. The no contact protective order may actually turn out to be the best gift my wife ever gave me. My sanity is back.


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

Do you like yourself?


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

I thought I was getting over it but I was wrong. Crazy happened again. It always does in this family and I always feel responsible. Just before a week long visit with my children, I hear from the social workers. My daughter is in deeper trouble. She is getting into seriously bad stuff on the internet. She ran out of the house and the police had to track her down. Same stuff as before I left, but worse. The daughter now has another serious county services report on her. It's all proving that I'm right about everything, but it doesn't make me feel good. Concerns for the children always rope me back into everything with my wife emotionally. I could let it all go if it wasn't for them. 
They are here with me now and I feel a little better, but they will have to go back to that hell hole next week. I know things are probably progressing toward me getting custody and my wife being exposed as the narcissistic sociopath that she is, but that is going to take time. Divorcing her will take time and money, and getting those kids will too. It will also take tremendous emotional energy. Every week I see new and different twists on the dysfunction. Every week I have to see her to transfer custody, I get acute physical anxiety symptoms, not just a racing heartbeat, but intense sore throats, coughing, headaches, and skin rashes. 
RtZ-As far as the question of liking myself. Yes, I do, but you have no idea of the levels of trauma that have been inflicted on me by trying to stay with this woman for the sake of my children. If I didn't have any self respect at all I would still be there, because I would have put up with it all silently. I did have many moments when I confronted her and stood up for myself, but this was met not with respect, but with cowardly acts of aggression on her part (spurious calls to police, an attempt to have me put in a psychiatric hospital, and eventually the restraining order). This was a problem I could do nothing to solve or prevent. She is pathological. Its as simple as that. Chaos and emotional destruction follow her at every turn. I just didn't recognize it until it was too late. The crazy stuff started when the youngest was 2 years old and had been progressing in the 8 years since, until it really exploded in the last year. I'm living with the constant fear that my daughter will turn up missing or dead because she also can't take living in that house, but has no choice. That is the crux of my pain. No amount of self-empowerment or improvement can change that.


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

Still terrified of my wife and the state of my children, but there have been some interesting revelations and interactions this week while I had my children. Not sure what to make of them. Given the whole protective order situation, everything was heard second hand through my mother, but I assume it was all meant to be heard by me .

I'm still not hopeful for a reconciliation, but I'm trying to figure out what is going through her head to anticipate the future crazy crap that will be hurled my way. Among the things I heard.

1) She can't sleep at night. She's up until 5 every night and/or taking sleep medication. She was like this even the past week with the kids out of the house and having a break from the stress.
2) She asked why I never got an apartment near the house after the separation (I'm now with my parents hours away, working remotely). Why would I go to all that hassle to do that for 4 months before my new job starts when I couldn't see my children anyway because of the protective order? 
3) She offered to send stuff from the house to me for my move to my new job. My mother explained that I will have a furnished place and didn't need anything. My wife offered to send towels. Unbelievable. She filed a restraining order, triggered thousands of dollars of legal expenses, and now she offers to generously send me off to my new life with f'n threadbare old towels.
4) She mentioned that she thinks she might have problems and is considering going to seek therapy.
5) She's still sticking to a lot of crazy talk and thinking about the parenting problems, so definitely there is much to be wary of.

What I'm wondering is what her motivation might be. Is she mostly scared to death about the stuff going on with my daughter and the possibility that she might lose her? Is she just trying to suck my mother in to her narcissistic web by appearing nice and caring? Is it possible that there is some crack in the wall with me and that there are regrets? 

I'm committed to standing steadfast and keeping my boundaries. I'm sticking to 100% no contact. I won't even pass her any indirect messages through third parties about my feelings about our relationship, or how I'm doing emotionally. I simply won't do it while under the duress of the protective order. It was filed as a manipulative power play, and I refuse to even acknowledge her existence while it is in place. I'm only addressing the very basic parenting and financial issues. I also don't want any crap from the house unless there is a divorce settlement, after which I will be able to afford an apartment large enough to have a few things.


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

Guilt.


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

Had another custody hearing today. My weekend visits were upped from 4 hours to 8 hours which I guess is good, but the judge seemed to have an over-excessive need for it to be a compromise. (I wanted 10 hours, and my wife wanted 6). It made no difference to the court that the family is completely falling apart otherwise, with my daughter having failing academic marks, running away from home, and a fresh CYS reports. They are still hung up on resolving the issue of whether or not I, the big bad abuser, who had the PFA filed on him, is worthy of time with my kids. 

It's completely pathetic. My daughter will have to wind up in serious trouble or dead before anything is done about her situation, yet the system lives in fear that maybe there is an outside chance that I will be that abuser that kills someone. I am so disgusted. Granted I didn't ask for primary custody because of my new job situation, but I think I will once I get settled in. My wife is ruining my children.

I truly believe things will get worse in the home and that eventually there will be no other option for me to take custody. It's just horrible to see this happening to my kids and have no other recourse. I will have to let my wife bottom out and pick up the pieces. It's coming. This is the most painful thing I've ever had to witness.

I also am believing more and more that she doesn't want a divorce. I really think she wants to use this legal process to prove to me that her messed up way of conducting family affairs is how it needs to go down. There have been a lot of conciliatory gestures behind the scenes via my mother that seem to contradict the hardball legal crap. In her twisted mind, I think she feels like she is rescuing the family and trying to get us all "psychologically well", although it's clear to me now who the nut job is.

I'm just feeling so done with this. I brought up the subject of dating before, and I think I'm going to go ahead and do it now. I don't think I'll become sexually active, or develop another serious relationship, but I do need to start to have some fun in my life and get my mind off this crap. Only 2 weeks away from my move for my job. Living with my parents and dealing with this has been horrendous.


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## BURNT KEP (Oct 3, 2012)

browser said:


> Guilt.


I think crazy.


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## BURNT KEP (Oct 3, 2012)

mjsquatch said:


> Had another custody hearing today. My weekend visits were upped from 4 hours to 8 hours which I guess is good, but the judge seemed to have an over-excessive need for it to be a compromise. (I wanted 10 hours, and my wife wanted 6). It made no difference to the court that the family is completely falling apart otherwise, with my daughter having failing academic marks, running away from home, and a fresh CYS reports. They are still hung up on resolving the issue of whether or not I, the big bad abuser, who had the PFA filed on him, is worthy of time with my kids.
> 
> It's completely pathetic. My daughter will have to wind up in serious trouble or dead before anything is done about her situation, yet the system lives in fear that maybe there is an outside chance that I will be that abuser that kills someone. I am so disgusted. Granted I didn't ask for primary custody because of my new job situation, but I think I will once I get settled in. My wife is ruining my children.
> 
> ...


Be careful of getting sucked back in. Stay the course and follow through with the divorce you deserve better.


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

Burnt- Crazy is my working hypothesis as well. I have no choice but to follow through with the divorce now because of that. She needs to have her power taken away from her, because she is completely incapable of using it responsibly. I'm just stuck dealing with a slow process that she got a huge head start on thanks to the PFA and my need to move to work. The kids will suffer for as long as it takes for this to be resolved, and I have no idea what that time frame will be.


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

mjsquatch said:


> Had another custody hearing today. My weekend visits were upped from 4 hours to 8 hours which I guess is good, but the judge seemed to have an over-excessive need for it to be a compromise. (I wanted 10 hours, and my wife wanted 6).


Seems reasonable enough to me. The court split your two requests down the middle. 

Next time ask for 20 hours or something of that nature. 

8 hours of visitation, only on the weekends is hardly anything. The standard in most states is every other weekend and one evening per week. 

You aren't even getting overnights?

Why is your visitation so limited?


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

Browser, Yeah, unfortunately I can't go for the whole weekends because I have to travel in from out of state and stay in hotels or with friends. I don't really have the place to put the kids overnight. I had actually wanted 12 hours on Saturday and 8 on Sunday, just because that's all I can manage with the situation. So she's squabbling over a few hours. After the 4 hour visits she has often sent her mother to get the kids and goes off doing God knows what on her own. It's terrible for the kids that they are being manipulated this way.

There will be another hearing in a couple of months to ensure everything is going OK and that I am worthy of the rest of my request. So more money for the lawyers and courts will be generated over this dispute of 4 hours. Meanwhile my daughter is failing school, running away from the house, using the internet dangerously, and has had 2 county child protective cases opened on her, but they don't want to even discuss that. No, I will have to try to establish a new large enough residence (which won't be possible until after a divorce), wait for things to get even worse in the home, and than file another expensive custody case before anything is done. The divorce could take years. She could delay even the initial filing for 2 years in our state. My daughter is at a bad age for this to go on indefinitely.


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## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

It is patently obvious that she wants you away from the kids. Give her a divorce. She's going to screw them up royally and they will be lost to you. You have neither the funds nor the capability to make this right, so therefore, you need to save yourself. This is a fight that you cannot fight, therefore, prepare yourself for the day that she messes it up beyond all recognition. 

I'm sad to say this, but I cannot see a scenario where you save your kids. They are lost right now and she is enabling. Her enabling is part and parcel of the rift she is engineering between you and your children.


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

Taxman, I appreciate your outlook, and I do agree that I need to brace for bad things to happen, but I'm not giving up on my children. First, she isn't being successful in making a rift between me and the kids. They are fine and respectful with me and tell me they look forward to my visits. I've learned through the county workers and my eldest daughter that they do horrible disrespectful things to their mother all the time. I think this all happened when they were old enough to be wise to what is really going on in the marriage. Secondly, I have parents that do have resources to help me fight this and will. They are as committed as I am. Third, as far as the divorce goes, I'm happy to let that happen, but she hasn't filed in 4 months and I don't think it will happen. 

I will probably file in May for a few reasons. The custody portion will be over then, My eldest will also be done with her first year of college, and unlike my wife, I do care about how such matters affect my children emotionally. My daughter had to take a medical leave in the fall, and I fear news of the divorce could damage what has been a decent rebound. I don't trust my wife not to tell her.

Over the past year my wife has done several things involving inappropriate information sharing that have had horrible consequences on the emotions of others. The first was telling my children I had lost my job last April without my involvement in the decision. In a week the situation changed and I got a reprieve. She also told my children we were separating without my input a few hours after a fight we had when I left to stay with my parents to cool down. She actually said "I already told the kids" as a reason to not let me back in the house. As I mentioned before, she had me served with the PFA, while I was in the house with the kids when that was avoidable. Since I left, she told my most troubled daughter that she would be changing to cyber homeschooling and how terrible her current school was, before anything was arranged. This predictably led to a refusal by my daughter to attend this school and two weeks of truancy. She also announced our break-up over Facebook, complete with a name change to her first and middle names. She is friends with many of my extended family and my long-time friends, and I would have preferred to handle this news much more delicately.

In short, she is completely crazy, as BURNT KEP mentioned. So I know the family will likely have a difficult time and some serious stuff will go down, but I want them to know that they still have someone who cares. Someone who would drive a long way just to take them out bowling or fishing or whatever. It could make the difference in whether or not they can ever get back up when they reach the bottom. Not to say that I won't work on myself too, but being a parent is way more important than anything else. Luckily my situation isn't quite as bad as others. I know many have been completely alienated from their children by crazy people like this. After this experience, my heart goes out to them so much.


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

Something is happening. It still isn't clear. Tonight when I called at my assigned time for the kids, my wife answered the phone. She hasn't ever done this for the 4 months this has been going on, and she does have caller ID. I deflected it by asking if I was speaking to my daughter. She identified herself and passed the phone over to the kids. I'm pretty sure this was no accident. Also unprecedented, they missed and did not return the previous call 2 days ago. Today my wife sent a long emotional letter about the kid's problems to my mother, which I did not read, nor do I think I should.

Something is stirring in her. I need to stay strong and not break my boundaries, not just out of legal necessity, but also for my emotional well being. This might be TMI, but I actually noticed that I got aroused when she spoke to me on the phone for that instant. I made it through the phone call with the kids without thinking about it, but when I hung up I sobbed for a half an hour straight. I have never felt ashamed of a sexual impulse like that before. It was almost like I got a quick flash of what certain types of sexual abuse must feel like.

God, what will I do if she tries to hoover me back in? Does anyone have any experience with this sort of situation? I do want to be able to speak to her again for the sake of the kids, but I'm afraid of her and attracted to her all at the same time.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

mjsquatch said:


> I have never felt ashamed of a sexual impulse like that before.


You shouldn't feel ashamed of an uncontrollable event. We all have inappropriate sexual thoughts or urges every single day. We just don't act on them.

If you dig deeper I think you may find your discomfort over feeling aroused should be labelled something else than shame.


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

MJS,

If you stay strong and stay the course, you have no idea what she will do.

You have never stayed strong and stayed the course before.

Have you?

Have you EVER stood up for yourself?

Of course you're attracted to her. For God's sake, you married her.


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

She's done the same thing the last 4 phone calls, and I am staying strong. I just asked politely to speak to my children without addressing her. I'm actually feeling pretty good, and getting passed the sexual freak out I had the first time. I suspect more contact is coming from her and I'm growing ready for it. It's amazing how a restraining order against me and a threat of divorce is actually giving me power. 

I suspect that she is going through a stage where she is realizing the loss of me and others in my family that actually cared about her sincerely. I don't think she has a lot of that from other places. I really think her intention is to get me to start speaking to her again and providing some of her emotional needs, but on her terms with the restraining order to still lord over me. I met someone in a support group in a similar situation, and the same thing happened to him, but he does talk to his ex. I won't and think that would just give all the power right back to her. Even worse it would put me in serious legal jeopardy.

I'm actually enjoying this turn of events, and feeling my confidence come back. Who knows where it will lead. All I know is that she gets nothing from me until that order is lifted. And if that were to happen, I'd make her wait a month or so until we really talk. Silence speaks so much louder than my anger ever did and is so much more effective.


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## BURNT KEP (Oct 3, 2012)

mjsquatch said:


> She's done the same thing the last 4 phone calls, and I am staying strong. I just asked politely to speak to my children without addressing her. I'm actually feeling pretty good, and getting passed the sexual freak out I had the first time. I suspect more contact is coming from her and I'm growing ready for it. It's amazing how a restraining order against me and a threat of divorce is actually giving me power.
> 
> I suspect that she is going through a stage where she is realizing the loss of me and others in my family that actually cared about her sincerely. I don't think she has a lot of that from other places. I really think her intention is to get me to start speaking to her again and providing some of her emotional needs, but on her terms with the restraining order to still lord over me. I met someone in a support group in a similar situation, and the same thing happened to him, but he does talk to his ex. I won't and think that would just give all the power right back to her. Even worse it would put me in serious legal jeopardy.
> 
> I'm actually enjoying this turn of events, and feeling my confidence come back. Who knows where it will lead. All I know is that she gets nothing from me until that order is lifted. And if that were to happen, I'd make her wait a month or so until we really talk. Silence speaks so much louder than my anger ever did and is so much more effective.


As I said before stay the course and don't get sucked back in. Crazy can be controlled by her for times but she can not change without professional help and I doubt that will happen. Work on you and your kids that's all that matters.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

BURNT KEP said:


> As I said before stay the course and don't get sucked back in. Crazy can be controlled by her for times but she can not change without professional help and I doubt that will happen. Work on you and your kids that's all that matters.


Yep. Even if the order is lifted, keep reminding yourself how HORRIBLE she has been. You dont do the things she has done to someone you really care about. Self preservation at all times!


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

mjsquatch said:


> She's done the same thing the last 4 phone calls, and I am staying strong. I just asked politely to speak to my children without addressing her. I'm actually feeling pretty good, and getting passed the sexual freak out I had the first time. I suspect more contact is coming from her and I'm growing ready for it. It's amazing how a restraining order against me and a threat of divorce is actually giving me power.
> 
> I suspect that she is going through a stage where she is realizing the loss of me and others in my family that actually cared about her sincerely. I don't think she has a lot of that from other places. I really think her intention is to get me to start speaking to her again and providing some of her emotional needs, but on her terms with the restraining order to still lord over me. I met someone in a support group in a similar situation, and the same thing happened to him, but he does talk to his ex. I won't and think that would just give all the power right back to her. Even worse it would put me in serious legal jeopardy.
> 
> I'm actually enjoying this turn of events, and feeling my confidence come back. Who knows where it will lead. All I know is that she gets nothing from me until that order is lifted. And if that were to happen, I'd make her wait a month or so until we really talk. Silence speaks so much louder than my anger ever did and is so much more effective.


Even after the order is done you can't ever speak to her. Once a spouse plays this card it's like a nuclear option in a relationship. You can never trust her, any disagreement you have with her she can run back and get another which the courts will easily hand out. You risk too much to talk to someone you know already won't listen to you so what's the point, certainly not for the sake of the kids which she clearly won't parent any other way but hers. 

I'll bet within a week of you moving for this new job she files and requests full custody and your stuck behind the 8 ball again.


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

Yes Burnt, when I said I would consider talking to her a month after the restraining order ends, the first item of business would be an insistance that she gets professional psychiatric help now. Then I'd wait and see. Not much optimism for that.


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

Had my custody visits this weekend. This was the first time they were relatively long (8hrs) and all went well with the kids. We had fun and I was able to keep myself together in front of them, but I'm having so much trouble handling my emotions, both about missing life with them, and about their mother's behavior.

After 4 months of a no contact restraining order, I thought she would calm down and become more civil. She only seems to increase her level of disregard for my feelings (and the kids'). The first day we went through the whole drama of the custody exchange at the gas station, with her mother also coming in a second car to supervise us. A lovely humiliating detail, I hadn't previously mentioned, which I'm sure is not emotionally healthy for the kids. (Her mom coming is not court mandated, but she is there every time). An hour later I call my adult daughter to meet us for lunch, and she asks that I come to the house to pick up and walk the dog. I say I'm not sure if I was allowed to do that, but she insists that her mother is making the request and it is OK. I agree to come by and sit in the car and have the dog brought out by my daughter. I felt OK because the lawyers had previously arranged once before that I pick up my adult daughter this way. I also didn't want to make a scene by refusing this. Everything went OK with the transfer and walk, but what the heck do the kids think of all this madness? They must know at some level that they are just being used to hurt me and falsely show both the courts and her parents how scared she is of me.

The second day, more of the same happened. Her mother comes up to me at the gas station and tells me they are running late because she can't get one of my daughter's moving along. They are 25 minutes late. Later, without being heavily pressed about it, this daughter mentions that my wife didn't wake her up until just after the time we were supposed to do the exchange. My daughter was very clear about knowing what that time was, and said she felt bad about being late. Here's the only thing good about this: She actually blurted this out when we were with her assigned county social workers. Unbelievable! Not only is my wife irresponsible enough to be that late, but she blames it on my daughter. This is so clearly abusive. It actually sounds like my daughter was quite quick in getting ready. I have a follow up meeting with the county workers tomorrow and we will certainly discuss this.

One daughter was 10 minutes late for a religious ed class because of this. The other showed up for a full day out with a pair of boots that were half separated at the sole, although she has other decent footwear. She also sent them without the bathing suits they needed for swimming, which they were looking forward to doing with me. I had my daughter arrange to get the bathing suits, and we did the same awkward exchange at the house we did the first day. 

I'm starting to think I need to just get duplicates of everything I need for my kids (bathing suits, shoes, etc.) and keep them with me. My wife clearly has no interest in being cooperative, and this will drive me crazy. The county workers have even mentioned to me that for the sake of our children she should modify the protective order to at least allow email communication to facilitate some of these simple details. Apparently piling more hurt onto me is way more important than exhibiting basic decency for the sake of the kids. The adult daughter is back to college this week, so she won't be there to facilitate the manipulation for a while.

Of course the other manipulative ace she has is still being played. I called up tonight after the visit at my assigned time to say good night to my daughters, and of course she answers again. WTF? She's either completely insane, or the most cruel person I've ever met. All these petty games while my daughters, especially the one, are in serious trouble. It would be one thing if the kids were mostly fine and she were doing this, but they are a complete mess as I mentioned in my previous posts. All of this is not going to end well. I'll need to walk a very fine tightrope to come out of this unscathed and protect my children.


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

I just emailed my lawyer and asked him to initiate divorce proceedings.

I should have done this months, if not years ago. What finally tipped me over the edge is that I think my wife is seeing someone. The reason I suspect is two fold. For one, she has been leaving the kids at home alone. Two Thursdays in a row she has been out when I had my scheduled call (every other time she has answered the phone). Mind you, she is doing this with a behaviorally disturbed child that has run off multiple times before. They are not very old 10-13. To me this smacks of her having a man that she has to rendezvous with and she has no one to ask to watch them. If she was shopping wouldn't she take them with her?

I also saw her Facebook page. I was able to access it with an extra account I have and see what is up there for the general public to see. She is friends with a man in our town that I don't know, and he has no common friends with her. It wouldn't be like her to friend some man unless there was something going on. Every other man on there makes sense in another way (high school, college, spouse of a friend) Nothing specifically incriminating there other than her liking his narcissistic photo updates.

She continues to play the phone games the other nights when she is home, answering and daring me to break contact. I've had it. I'm not paying for this anymore. I'm not playing her psychotic games. It really is over now.


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

Of course I would add that leaving the kids home alone to screw someone is just the most disgusting part of this. Why does she even want to be their mother? I hope she's read this and she knows what a sadistic worthless human being she is.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

She's had you over a barrel.

Why?

Because you care and she doesn't.

Better stay NC with her as much as possible.

A sliver of hope that she'll change is a dangerous thing.


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

Very simple and accurate Marc. It really is over now and there is no going back. It's too many bridges to far. If it was just me she hurt it would be one thing, but she has hurt our children so badly. My child is one step away from being institutionalized and she does nothing but think of herself and her power struggles.


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

I also just took the step of separating our finances as much as possible. I separated the credit cards, so she will only have a couple with fairly low limits, and I've asked my lawyer to recommend what I should pay her in support. She makes so little that she'll still be 2000-3000 or so shy of what she needs each month. It's time for her to ask her mommy and daddy for a handout. I'll be giving her enough to cover the house and the car in my name.

It's wake up time all around, for me and for her. I don't even care whether or not she is seeing anyone now. I'm just so relieved to be letting go. Reality is going to start coming hard.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Rather than use the angle that she's got a man, look at it more as negligence with the children. You can't prove one, but you can clearly document the other.


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

Satya, Yes. I don't think the dating legally matters at this point in my state once you are separated. However the child welfare angle is extremely relevant. Especially if she is leaving the children home alone to make her rendezvous.

I am now realizing how deep my wife's delusions are. She thinks she can make it all work on her 18K a year and maybe a couple of grand a month from me? She thinks she can find a decent man who will walk into her mess, at her age? 

I now think that the phone answering hoover maneuver she is employing is just fishing for an ego boost for herself. She thinks it will hurt me more and elevate her status if she knows I'm still pining for her while she's "moving on with her life" with her dating scene. I think she's very afraid that I might not be holding on anymore, and because of the restraining order, she doesn't really know. It's going to be quite the blow to her when those divorce papers come. I'm sure she thought I would try to hold on and not file. 

I'm actually really glad now that she got the restraining order and things went down the way they did. Other than the time away from my kids it has actually been positive in many respects. Much better than if I had gotten a separate apartment as she was demanding. She would have just made me subservient and I would have hung on longer and been abused by her more. I really am completely over her now, but I don't think that deep down she is really over me. She has a very difficult time ahead of her. It's sad, but it's what she chose.

For me, I think I'll be fine now. If she keeps the kids and I just visit, I might try to find someone new. However, if the crap really hits the fan, and I have to take over primary custody, I'll probably just focus on that as best I can until they are older. They need more from their parents than they are currently getting.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

The longer she is legally married to you the more it benefits her. It's good that you have started to truly detach and have filed. Well past time. Remember, the kids are old enough that they have a say regarding where they live.


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

MJJEAN. Thanks for the supportive message. I am continuing to fight for full custody, and I think I will ultimately prevail. My STBEX (now that I've filed I will use that term) will not be able to handle this, the evidence is becoming clearer and clearer. Almost everyday there are new bombshells I learn about, mostly just from talking to the kids.

During some of my phone calls, I had picked up on the kids being home alone sometimes. They are 10 and almost 13, but remember that my 13 year old is the emotionally disturbed one. In talking with them during my visit today I found out that their mom has frequently been leaving them home for 2-3 hour stretches in the late afternoon/early evening. There was a toaster fire during one of the these incidents. I know there ages are just about where legal guidelines say you can start to do this, but only if the older child is responsible enough to supervise the younger one. In this case the older one has a history of severe behavioral problems and is herself being supervised by county social workers.

I am already planning to speak with one of the workers tomorrow and will file a child abuse report if possible. I recorded part of the conversation with my cell phone. At the very least I want this to stop. There are other small revelations that are telling. The older one is doing cyber homeschooling on the computer and says her mom is constantly interrupting her to show her stuff on Facebook. This stuff just streams out of the kids' mouths. The parenting was bad when I was there, but it's over the top now. I actually thinks she has less emotional maturity than the kids.

Boy did I name this thread properly.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

You can't fix the past but you are the kids father. Your weakness and passivity needs to stay in the past.

These things don't just go away or get better.

I hope you've woken up to this.


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

Marc. I do feel quite awake now, but also very sad. My STBEX does not seem like the woman I married. I know everyone thinks the other party has mental illness problems in a divorce, but I really think it might be pretty significant in this case. She has been delusional about a lot of things in life for a long time, and the delusions are persisting and deepening now. Her treatment of the children during this is further evidence of the problem.

I talked to the social worker for about an hour and she took detailed notes of everything I had to say and seemed very concerned. She agrees that the situation of my wife leaving the children unsupervised is completely unacceptable. They told me to file a report if my intuition told me to do so, but another party recommended it might be better to get a court order prohibiting her from doing this. That way there would be some real teeth to the punishment if it were to happen again, whereas an abuse complaint may or may not go anywhere. Usually those things are just marked as unfounded so long as it isn't too severe and the parent promises not to do it again.

The social workers also have been accompanying me on my visits and actually noted afterward how much better the kids are when they are with me. At home with their mother they are completely disrespectful and won't talk about anything. When they are with me they are laughing and having fun. In my follow up meeting the worker asked a lot of specific questions about the possibility of me seeking custody. Everything she said was carefully worded to not sound biased against my wife, but I suspect they may be pretty squarely in my corner.

I just can't believe that she tried to take the kids away from me while also starting a party lifestyle at the same time. Don't most women usually do one or the other. That is they either go off and have fun and leave their husband with the kids, or they dutifully dedicate themselves to motherhood while they recover from the hurt. You got to hand it to my STBEX. She's trying to do it all!

I think her primary delusion is that she can find a nice fun guy that she can replace me with that will solve all the family problems. She has no insight into the fact that she herself is the main family problem. I could only imagine the chaos that would ensue with my emotionally disturbed daughter if another man was brought into the picture. My daughter already hits and disrespects her. After all my EXs efforts to belittle me, somehow the kids still respect me more than her. Maybe because I act more like a parent.


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

Why all the focus on her?


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

Return- Because she's insane and she is destroying our kids. This is a divorce forum and I'm divorcing her. I've been putting a lot more effort into myself and my children, but I'm not talking about that here. I have a new job that I love. My relationship with the kids is great right now, but I'm not giving all the details.
I am still trying to process this loss. I'm better now because I'm starting to understand the grief is more for the kids and being with them daily than it was for her. But the whole thing is so much worse because the kids are doing so badly with her, It keeps bringing back into the whole thing emotionally. I also do feel bad about the hard stand I'm taking now. It needed to be done and it felt liberating to do it, but there is a backslide into guilt,


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

The more focus on her, the less focus on moving forward.

There's only one you.

F. Scott Peck asks us to "bracket" the emotions that disable us.

Just think of it as pushing them aside to focus on another part of your personality.


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

The hard stand is definitely paying dividends. I just got a request from her to allow her parents to pay for the house to be painted so that it can be prepared to be sold (it had terrible peeling paint). It sounds like they've told her that they will not support her to live in her current lifestyle (it would require thousands per month, indefinitely). 
She is also practically a hoarder, so leaving that house will not be easy for her. However, for the family's sake, I'm so happy to hear this. I really need to get my family out of that house. Whatever the future holds, it is the first step toward sanity.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

Yep you named this thread pretty darn good!

So far you a doing just about as well as can be expected


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

Thanks, Chilly. Small messages of support like this do help.


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

mjsquatch said:


> The hard stand is definitely paying dividends. I just got a request from her to allow her parents to pay for the house to be painted so that it can be prepared to be sold (it had terrible peeling paint). It sounds like they've told her that they will not support her to live in her current lifestyle (it would require thousands per month, indefinitely).
> She is also practically a hoarder, so leaving that house will not be easy for her. However, for the family's sake, I'm so happy to hear this. I really need to get my family out of that house. Whatever the future holds, it is the first step toward sanity.


That's one in a row.

Continue standing tall.

It's liberating.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

mjsquatch said:


> The hard stand is definitely paying dividends. I just got a request from her to allow her parents to pay for the house to be painted so that it can be prepared to be sold (it had terrible peeling paint). It sounds like they've told her that they will not support her to live in her current lifestyle (it would require thousands per month, indefinitely).
> She is also practically a hoarder, so leaving that house will not be easy for her. However, for the family's sake, I'm so happy to hear this. I really need to get my family out of that house. Whatever the future holds, it is the first step toward sanity.


Have any of the family services people made comments about the hoarding or potential hoarding your stbx is doing. This could help you in regards to custody.


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

honcho- With regards to the hoarding, it's hard to say. I haven't seen the inside of the house for months now, so I really don't know if she's been good or bad about that lately. She can be functional with that when she wants to be, but usually at least a few rooms are pretty bad. Especially the kitchen and dining room. Might be good to ask the social workers how that is right now,

The house and property has a lot of storage space, which is full of tons and tons of useless stuff. I also had a lot of tools from all the work I did in the house. That's one of the real ironies here. I pretty much rebuilt that house and she has appropriated it for herself. It really was a shameless move and its hard to imagine that she can't have some guilt about it. 

Anyway, because the hoarding is one of her key issues, my plan is to do absolutely nothing about cleaning out the house. I already have my necessities, and that is it. She can deal with all the rest of it. She can have a giant garage sale, box it up, throw it all out, whatever. I know as a hoarder she will hate doing all of those things herself, but she will have to. Every time we moved in the past I did 99% of the work. Not this time. I also don't want to suffer the indignity of having law enforcement trail me around while I retrieve my things. It isn't worth it to me. Knowing she has to deal with it is worth more than the combined value of all that stuff. 

So that further explains why I was so happy about the talk of selling the house. The issue really is important for accountability sake. I don't know if I mentioned this before, but she had friend who did the same PFA thing to her husband. She managed to find a new guy and keep the house and all, despite similarly having almost no income. I think that my ex developed a delusion that she was living the same life as her friend and could pull off the same thing. Of course there are many differences in the situation that my irrational ex would never see. First, he actually really was pretty controlling and abusive unlike me (this friend actually confided to me that she told my ex to stop comparing the situations). Secondly, their house was nearly paid off and they had additional financial assets. We have about enough equity to pay our credit cards off. Also this woman was close to 30 while my wife is 45 and well past her prime. There are of course also the severe behavior problems with the children. It's all a big delusion.


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

Tonight's phone call to the kids was full of lots of passive aggressive action. The ex answered herself, as is now her habit, and put the phone on speaker as she hands it to my younger daughter (I can hear the echo). A few seconds later there is loud laughing in the background as my ex is talking to her brother on another line or Skype or something. When my older daughter gets the phone she takes it off speaker and tells me this. Later the dog starts barking in the background and I hear the ex scream about her frustration that she can't take the dog out and leave my daughter unsupervised. 

I think she is really pissed about the strong actions I took last week. It feels so good not to be afraid of her anger anymore when I call her on her BS. Knowing her I don't think I'll ever get a direct confrontation, so this is definitely worth gloating over. It'll be interesting to see what happens when the divorce papers hit. I really wonder if she'll accept them or make me wait 2 years as she can in my state. Even if she does agree to it, I still think it will be a long divorce, because she'll probably fight about everything and be generally difficult.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

mjsquatch said:


> Tonight's phone call to the kids was full of lots of passive aggressive action. The ex answered herself, as is now her habit, and put the phone on speaker as she hands it to my younger daughter (I can hear the echo). A few seconds later there is loud laughing in the background as my ex is talking to her brother on another line or Skype or something. When my older daughter gets the phone she takes it off speaker and tells me this. Later the dog starts barking in the background and I hear the ex scream about her frustration that she can't take the dog out and leave my daughter unsupervised.
> 
> I think she is really pissed about the strong actions I took last week. It feels so good not to be afraid of her anger anymore when I call her on her BS. Knowing her I don't think I'll ever get a direct confrontation, so this is definitely worth gloating over. It'll be interesting to see what happens when the divorce papers hit. I really wonder if she'll accept them or make me wait 2 years as she can in my state. Even if she does agree to it, I still think it will be a long divorce, because she'll probably fight about everything and be generally difficult.


To be honest it sounds as if you need to try and get the dog as well. Clearly not being walked or looked after properly.


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

Diana-Don't know about that. To be honest I couldn't take care of her either. Last time I saw her I did notice she had gotten horribly fat. We took her for a modest walk during one of my visits, and my oldest daughter said she was completely tired out for the day. She really should get adopted by someone else at this point.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

mjsquatch said:


> Diana-Don't know about that. To be honest I couldn't take care of her either. Last time I saw her I did notice she had gotten horribly fat. We took her for a modest walk during one of my visits, and my oldest daughter said she was completely tired out for the day. She really should get adopted by someone else at this point.


She needs to be with someone who will at least bother to take her for a walk each day. :frown2:


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

Another good thing has happened. My mom, who has been relaying messages between us, because of the PFA, is starting to get fed up with her in a major way. She had been trying to stay friendly for the sake of the kids, but she is now experiencing what I have for years and is outraged by it. My mom dropped the children off with my ex after Easter and had gotten the children milkshakes. The ex criticized my mom for all the sugar, but then my daughter pipes up "but mom you just took us for milkshakes last week!" My mom is also getting sick of the ridiculous pfa being applied at full tilt now for months and getting roped into it. She had to bounce back and forth several questions about our tax returns, etc. It can't all be done by the lawyers, because sometimes they act to slow, and using them for every last thing would be astronomically expensive. I don't even live in the same state anymore, the full no contact PFA is just being used to humiliate me.
I think my Mom might be finally working up to telling my ex off. It would be huge, because she's always been deferential to the utmost. Although supportive of me, she has not really seen clearly the monster that my ex is until now. My mom kept telling me that the behaviors were not as bad as they seem and also counseling me not to be strong for fear of her retaliations. Its pretty simple and bald-face. She drove me crazy with her narcissistic delusions, and then kicked me out of the house that I've paid for and renovated with my own sweat and blood, and now has topped it off by emotionally abusing and neglecting my children while she lives it up.
I can see where this is all going now. There will be a new guy emerging out of the woodwork shortly. My middle daughter will freak out and have a major incident (run away or do something violent). I'll probably get custody as a result. My ex will go on to have a series of bad relationships, and I'll raise my kids as a single dad until they are done growing up. I think I'll be fine with that, but there is still a lot of pain ahead for all of us.


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

Now the crazy is really starting to come out. I had my visit today with my kids. They live in a relatively small town and I've been taking them a lot to a grocery store that has a large cafe. It's a good indoor spot where we can sit and play board games for as long as we wish. Because I don't have a home when I visit, frequenting this place is almost a necessity for me. 

Anyway, guess who shows up at the cafe today? The ex of course! There is no way that wasn't an accident. I'm sure the kids have told her what we do and where we typically go. Anyway, we had finished lunch and were just talking. I see the ex at the other side of the store as I am throwing away the trash and I get nervous. I'm hoping that she is just shopping and goes away. I return to the kids and she just waltzes by and sits a couple of tables away from us.

I immediately have to tell the kids its time to go. they look awkwardly at their mother but no words are exchanged by anyone. When we leave I hug my kids and tell them I'm sorry things are that way, but that I'm not allowed to be there. I really didn't know what else to say. We get in the car and she calls my daughter on her court mandated cellphone and asks her where we are and what we are doing.

At this point I'm shaking with fear and feeling so bad for my kids that they have to go through this. I just drove off and decided to go over to the next town an hour away and see an attraction we had never been to before. I just stayed there the whole day. We sat and played cards in the food court of the local mall.

I don't think I can prove that this is stalking. I'm sure this has something to do with the pressure I've put on her recently and that she is upping the ante. She has no shame about what she is putting the kids through with her behavior. I'm also wondering if she may have deliberately tracked us down. Could she possibly have hacked my location through my cell phone? Maybe she has a spy at this grocery store? 

I'm beyond even trying to think about what is going through her head. It's just pure madness. She's getting everything she wanted, the house, the kids, my humiliation with the restraining order, and a divorce, but it isn't enough. I just signed the divorce petition and put it in the mail before the visit. What is going to happen when she is served with that? I'm scared of what this might escalate too. Anyone have any tips for things to do to protect myself?


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## mjsquatch (Jan 25, 2017)

Denial is the name of the game! The financial action I took a few weeks ago really pushed a button, and I think the crap is hitting the fan. She has not responded to two letters from my lawyer during that time requesting that the mortgage, car payment, and a couple of other joint bills be forwarded to me so I can pay them from my own account. It is more than the recommended spousal and child support. It's now close to the first of the month and I have no idea what she is doing with the bills. I had my mail forwarded, but I'm not sure if everything will reach me, especially if both of our names are on it. Some of it may be paperless too. I have no idea. She just doesn't want to face this. It's unbelievable. I think ignoring letters from my lawyer about this might get her in some hot water legally. 

She also learned about the divorce filing. She hasn't quite been served, but it is imminent and her lawyer spilled the beans (my lawyer told me). I've had two phone calls with the kids since then. She answered both times. I can tell she wants to talk to me but can't bring herself to do it. The first time she sighed and with a real kind voice said "high there, how ya doin" the second time she just sounded really sad. I stayed strong and just asked to speak to the kids. This time I can't be the one to reach out to her as it always has been in the past. If she wants to speak, she has to go to the court and remove that protective order, I just won't do it under this duress. 

She is still going out almost every night. The kids tell me so. At least there grandmother is watching them now, or at least I'm being told that. The denial is really, really deep. Any rational person in her position would be having the mother of all garage sales, renting a dumpster, and doing everything else you'd need to get out of that house. Perhaps her parents have told her they are going to buy it for her, who knows. 

One of three things is going to happen. 1) She plays hardball in the divorce, thinking she'll be able to get more out of me because of the "abuse", 2) She takes advantage of the 2 year delay period possible in my state, or 3) she finds a reason to try to reconcile with me. I honestly don't know which of the three it will be. Maybe it will wind up being #2. #1 isn't going to happen, because I've been a model citizen with respect to the PFA, while she's shown herself on multiple occasions as trying to bait me to break it. I also have several counselors and social workers who have told me they would testify if needed on my behalf that I am not an "abuser". #3 will not work either, because I've had it and I'm not going back. My list of demands for that would be so stringent that she could never bring herself to comply. They would be that the home is sold and our debts are paid with the equity, and we never buy a house again. She would have to get a real job outside of the home. She would also have to undergo rigorous psychiatric evaluation and take the advice of the professionals involved. Our finances would also stay separated indefinitely. (There's more, that's just the beginning). So anyway, she'll probably just choose the route that allows her to deny and procrastinate.


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

mjsquatch said:


> Now the crazy is really starting to come out. I had my visit today with my kids. They live in a relatively small town and I've been taking them a lot to a grocery store that has a large cafe. It's a good indoor spot where we can sit and play board games for as long as we wish. Because I don't have a home when I visit, frequenting this place is almost a necessity for me.
> 
> Anyway, guess who shows up at the cafe today? The ex of course! There is no way that wasn't an accident. I'm sure the kids have told her what we do and where we typically go. Anyway, we had finished lunch and were just talking. I see the ex at the other side of the store as I am throwing away the trash and I get nervous. I'm hoping that she is just shopping and goes away. I return to the kids and she just waltzes by and sits a couple of tables away from us.
> 
> ...


QUIT HAVING A ROUTINE

EMBRACE THE SUCK

This is now a shell game. Take them a different place every time - and laugh to yourself about how absolutely crazy she is going trying to track you down.

CONQUER YOUR FEAR.

You have spent far too many years of your life being afraid of her reactions.

Time to break up that game for good.


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

I speak of my safe man often. My safe man gave me many pearls of wisdom.

One of them was this.

You are in a power struggle. Guess what? To win your life, you must win this struggle.

You didn't choose it. But, freedom beckons.

Claim it.

Let the chips fall where they may.


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## BURNT KEP (Oct 3, 2012)

So how's it going mjsquatch hope things are looking up.


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