# Marriage Builders Plan B



## MadAndConfused (Nov 24, 2011)

Hi all,

I was wondering, does any of you have any success stories after applying the Plan B? If yes, can you please tell me your story? I am so desparate, I started Plan B since Sunday, but today I feel depressed and want to cry. I am not sure if I am making the right choice... Can you please help?  Thanks....


----------



## HerToo (Oct 3, 2011)

For those of us that don't know, what is Plan B?


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

basically what most of recommend here


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

MadAndConfused said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I was wondering, does any of you have any success stories after applying the Plan B? If yes, can you please tell me your story? I am so desparate, I started Plan B since Sunday, but today I feel depressed and want to cry. I am not sure if I am making the right choice... Can you please help?  Thanks....



define "success"


if you strictly mean a successful R then there are some of us here

but plan B is also about doing what's right for you and I've seen plenty of success there


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

for her too

What Are Plan A and Plan B?


BTW- I hate plan A, I think it facilitates affairs


----------



## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Depends on the wayward , I've seen plan B work after a week and lead to R , I've seen it work after a year and lead to R , I have also seen it work and BS never take the wayward back. It is designed to protect the BS and allow them to move on and make choices for themselves .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Are you running plan B properly using an IM ?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Mad--tell us the backstory of what's going on.

Have you done Plan A?

I personally am NOT a fan of Plan A...especially if an affair is happening.


----------



## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

Almostrecovered said:


> for her too
> 
> What Are Plan A and Plan B?
> 
> ...


I think it rewards people that have affairs(Plan A, that is).
Harley says some good stuff, particularly about the extent of the devestation an affair cuases.
But, he comes up short, IMO, re holding cheaters accountable, citing their unmet needs and ignoring the fact that the Bs needs were unmet. 
He seems to advocate rug sweeping, too, in that he does not want the affair mentioned, ever again, after the couple decide to reconcile.Basically, he expects a BS to be like Ghandi or Mother Theresa with no outlet for the anger.


----------



## Geoffrey Marsh (Aug 11, 2011)

I didn't see even the hint of a light at the end of the tunnel until I:

1. Demanded 100% no-contact.
2. Exposed to family and friends.
3. Demanded 100% transparency.
4. Monitored.


I think this lines up closer to the plan B you mentioned. 

I however think there realistically is only one course of action that one can take after d-day....and it is not plan A.


----------



## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

One of the many problems of Plan A is that it has the betrayed trying to negotiate with the cheating spouse to end his/her affair and in return to satisfy his/her emotional needs. If we were living in a logical world filled with logical people, it could work but since we don't, it rarely works. Another is that it makes the betrayed spouse look needy and disingenuous to the cheating spouse who may be thinking "Yeah now you want to satisfy my needs when before the affair you didn't give a damn about them and even told me so". And lastly, it only encourages cake eating because the cheating spouse realizes that the betrayed spouse is willing to satisfy those emotional needs that the OM/OW can't and vice versa so there is no need to end the affair because he/she has the best of both worlds. If you don't believe me just go over to the Marriage Builders forums and see how many are successful in ending their spouse's affair implementing Plan A.

On the other hand Plan B detaches the betrayed spouse from his/her cheating spouse by initiating an NC (no contact) policy until he/she ends the affair and communicates a willingness to do everything in his/her power to rebuild the marriage. Unfortunately by the time a betrayed spouse goes to Plan B, he/she has already lost enough love that even if cheating spouse wants to R, the betrayed spouse no longer wants to. Many times, marital recovery can be tougher to endure than an ongoing affair.

I'm a bigger fan of the 'Just Let Them Go' and 180 because I've seen far better results from its implementation than any of those obtained with Plan A/Plan B.


----------



## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

Yes, that "just let them go" deal seems the best. Homer Macdonald has a site explaining how it works. He claims high rates of success. I think the site is divorce busting or something. You can google him.


----------



## sadcalifornian (Sep 18, 2011)

Unless I am mistaken, Dr. Harley himself admitted that the success rate of Plan A is only 15%. This makes me wonder if the success rate is that low, doesn't that mean such success rate may not be the direct result of Plan A? Maybe no matter what BS did, at least 15% of cases would end up as R regardless? 

IMHO, Plan A is a totally useless tactic to recover the marriage. On top of that, Add the emotional anguish and torture that it puts BS thru for 6 months, which is how long Dr. Harley recommends the plan A to be applied, and I think it is such a sadistic, or should I say masochistic, approach to the devastated BS. 

The numerous stories of BS desperately applying Plan A on Marriagebuilder website should belong to the realm of Slasher/Horror movies.


----------



## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

Harley's claims for sucess rates are highly suspect, IMO. He claims 100% success for folks who both work his program. But, that is very misleading, as many, many WSs refuse to do so, and a lot of BSs are unwilling to let the WS back in.
But, what is really strange(and I virtually got kicked off the site for pointint this out) is that he says Plan A works 15 % of the time and Plan B works even less frequenly(say 14%). So if you add those up, we are talking aobut a 29% success rate, which is just about the success rate found among the general population.
I pointed this out, citing his quote about both Plan A and Plan B, and a mob went after me for not just blindly accepting their leader's claims.
Thing is, I like a lot of what he has to say, particulary his video where he ponts out how infidelity is much more damaging than folks think.
But, then the $$ motive comes inot play in his claims of success, and we have the 100% succes rate claim. Folks on that site do not tolerate dissetn or honest questioning of their prophet's claims.


----------



## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

"Silence! Infidel Arnold! I keel you!" Achmed the dead MB terrorist


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Thanks for the info Arnold, I never read much of that site and had no idea it was so cultish
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

morituri said:


> "Silence! Infidel Arnold! I keel you!" Achmed the dead MB terrorist


That is just about what I was told.
There are some rabid groupies on that site who go nuts if you question anything about his doctorines.
One particularly dumb, yet vociferous poster will always preface her defense of the good Doctor by saying something like "Dr Willard Harley, a LCP with over 35 years of experience, says ..blah, blah."
For God's sake you'd think having a doctorate in psych was the equivalent of getting a PHd in Astrophysics or having a guarranty of infalibility (sp?) , like the Pope. It's psych for goodness sakes(just like law, a bullcrap degree).
If I just accepted someone's years of experience as a guarranty that he was never wrong, I would never have tried any cases against the old lawyers, when I was young


----------



## JustaJerk (Dec 2, 2011)

> I pointed this out, citing his quote about both Plan A and Plan B, and a mob went after me for not just blindly accepting their leader's claims.


Like I said, Harley and his minions will punish those who even _think_ of questioning his/their methods.



> There are some rabid groupies on that site who go nuts if you question anything about his doctorines.
> One particularly dumb, yet vociferous poster will always preface her defense of the good Doctor by saying something like "Dr Willard Harley, a LCP with over 35 years of experience, says ..blah, blah."


Its funny that you mention this. There's always a team(site) mascot cheering and rooting for the home team on every forum. Another site that has a rabid fan base is Survivng Infidelity. These people will cut you off at the knees for any inkling of "tough love." Its more of a "don't be harsh to poor WS... they have feelings too, you know." What a crock of sh!t. There's one poster there that literally lives on that forum. Always with long winded philosophical bullsh!t defending the right of a WS in terms of reconciliation as a choice of _theirs_ to stay and put-up with BS's crap... WTF?!?! Almost playing it off like a martyr. Everything she posts is like gospel over there "Oh... you're so right UO." Its like these people don't have a brain of their own.


----------



## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

Yes, I saw thatpost on Surviving, about the WS choosing etc. It sickened me, this group of cheaters acting as if they were so incredibly brave for having chosen to allow the BS to remain with them. But, the nice thing about posts like that is that they demonstrate the narcissim which is rampant among cheaters.
You'll also notice , if you read cheaters posts much, that there is a significant drop off in intellect among them, as well as maturity. Many seem drawn to new agish concepts and "spirituality" which is in direct conflict with the behaviors they demonstrated. You'll hear all about "soulmates" ,"connection", "emotional needs " etc.


----------



## MadAndConfused (Nov 24, 2011)

Hi all,

Thanks for your posts. Here are my answers:


Almostrecovered said:


> define "success"
> if you strictly mean a successful R then there are some of us here but plan B is also about doing what's right for you and I've seen plenty of success there


I mean re-establishing the loving relationship in your marriage and the ability to leave them all behind and have a happy-ending reconciliation... My H definitely has a EA/PA with one of this colleagues at work...
I also hated Plan A, I have tried it for 3 months without any success. My H was still very distant and cold and sometimes he would do things he knows I don’t like. I started to think that he was making them on purpose for starting a fight...



Eli-Zor said:


> Depends on the wayward , I've seen plan B work after a week and lead to R , I've seen it work after a year and lead to R , I have also seen it work and BS never take the wayward back. It is designed to protect the BS and allow them to move on and make choices for themselves.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What is a “wayward”? Sorry, I am new to this forum and just wondering... I don’t have an IM, since I am not applying the Plan B “by the book”... I didn’t tell my H that I am applying the NC thing for the reason stated in McDonald’s article. I just told him that once he makes up his mind regarding us to come and talk to me. In the meantime I stated that I will continue living my life (I didn’t imply that I will be looking for men or something, as this is DEFINETELY not my purpose ).

@Geoffrey Marsh: I also exposed to family and friend, but only from my part. I didn’t expose to OW’s family as she is single 

@Jellybeans: Here is some background of my case:
We have been together for 12 years, married for 3.5. I am 30, he is 31. We have never had such issues in the past. I have been suspecting the affair during the last four months. Just a few days ago I found some charges on his visa that I definitely didn't know about (fancy restaurants, romantic hotels, etc). 

He left the house in July, came back in September and he is out again for the last two weeks. All this time he is staying with his parents. When he returned home I did try to talk to him, let him know that I am 100% committed in saving our marriage and that I am willing to work and fight for it. He didn't want me to touch/hug/kiss him. We haven't had sex since July. That was the main reason that I started suspecting about him having an EA...

My full story is described in another thread of mine, named “Can you please help?”

Thank you all for your replies, I really appreciate it. You are giving me a lot of strength to continue fighting for my marriage...


----------



## JustaJerk (Dec 2, 2011)

It seems his parents are enabling his horrendous behavior. 

Are you sure all it is, is only emotional. I get a sick feeling it might be more.


----------



## MadAndConfused (Nov 24, 2011)

JustaJerk said:


> It seems his parents are enabling his horrendous behavior.
> 
> Are you sure all it is, is only emotional. I get a sick feeling it might be more.


Can you please be more specific? What do you mean if this is only emotional...?


----------



## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Meaning if he has taken it to the physical level, a Physical Affair (PA). He's had ample opportunity because his parents aren't going to be watching him, that's for sure. Charges for romantic hotels? Are you kidding me? Did they check in just to talk or something?

This Plan A stuff is just crap, it does *NOTHING* but *ENABLE* this horrible behavior.

If you're trying to wait out his PA, and yes, I believe it has gone PA(charges for romantic hotels), then you'll be waiting in vain. This is a workplace affair, correct? Expose it to the HR department if you can. 

It's time to file for D and show him the consequences of his actions. Tell him you're going to rake him over the coals in the divorce. You can always delay or cancel the D if he starts to come out of the fog. But right now, he's not deserving of R in the least. You've offered it, but he's done nothing to deserve it.


----------



## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Oh, and isn't this the same Dr. Harley that said if his own wife cheated on him that he would just divorce her? :lol:


----------



## Geoffrey Marsh (Aug 11, 2011)

MadAndConfused said:


> Hi all,
> 
> What is a “wayward”?



wayward = the cheating spouse.


----------



## MadAndConfused (Nov 24, 2011)

Thanks


----------



## JustaJerk (Dec 2, 2011)

Exaclty what *lordmayhem* said.

The hotels and fine dining are definetly red flags for PA.


----------



## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Personally I refraining from making comments about posters on another pro marriage sites , there is a high desertion rate from here to there and a lot of posters here work across both sites . The MB site has a common process and plan and regardless of what people think of some of the posters there they have a high rate success be it marriage recovery or assisting the BS with moving on. Time should be spend learning from techniques that work from all pro marriage sites and helping folk here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JustaJerk (Dec 2, 2011)

They're just comments. No need to take it to heart. This is an open forum and people are able to say what they like. No one says they have to agree with anything being thrown around here, or anywhere else.


----------



## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

JustaJerk said:


> They're just comments. No need to take it to heart. This is an open forum and people are able to say what they like. No one says they have to agree with anything being thrown around here, or anywhere else.


Sure they are comments as are mine
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sadcalifornian (Sep 18, 2011)

lordmayhem said:


> Oh, and isn't this the same Dr. Harley that said if his own wife cheated on him that he would just divorce her? :lol:


I know. That shows how little faith he has on his own program.


----------



## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

sadcalifornian said:


> I know. That shows how little faith he has on his own program.


He did say though that his wife is more knowledgeable about affairs than other wives and so she would have no excuse to have one. But Doc Harley won't truly know for sure until that happens.


----------



## sadcalifornian (Sep 18, 2011)

morituri said:


> He did say though that his wife is more knowledgeable about affairs than other wives and so she would have no excuse to have one. But Doc Harley won't truly know for sure until that happens.


So, all the infidelities in the world can be saved by his wonderful Plan A/B programs, but his W's infidelity should never be forgiven because she should know better? A tinge of hypocricy here?


----------



## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

sadcalifornian said:


> So, all the infidelities in the world can be saved by his wonderful Plan A/B programs, but his W's infidelity should never be forgiven because she should know better? A tinge of hypocricy here?


Maybe not considering that many people who had affairs didn't know jack sh1t about the dangerous marital boundaries they crossed before they had them. But if his wife were to have one she couldn't claim ignorance because her betrayal would be calculated and planned one. Very hard to forgive that kind of betrayal.


----------



## MadAndConfused (Nov 24, 2011)

So the outcome of this thread is that Plan B does not work? Does not having contact with your cheating spouse work? If yes, how long should I keep the no contact plan?


----------



## sadcalifornian (Sep 18, 2011)

I don't think anybody here has beef with Plan B. It is Plan A that we don't have much faith in.


----------



## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

MadAndConfused said:


> So the outcome of this thread is that Plan B does not work? Does not having contact with your cheating spouse work? If yes, how long should I keep the no contact plan?


It works but does not always result in marriage recovery , it is a good plan to help you as a person .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

MadAndConfused said:


> So the outcome of this thread is that Plan B does not work? Does not having contact with your cheating spouse work? If yes, how long should I keep the no contact plan?


I think a modified plan is best, one that has accountability If the wayward comes back
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MadAndConfused (Nov 24, 2011)

Almostrecovered said:


> I think a modified plan is best, one that has accountability If the wayward comes back
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So what is the modified plan you suggest? I am trying not to initiate any contact. When he contacts I try to keep to the point, I do not get to further discussions. Is this ok?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

that part is fine, the whole exposure and 180 stuff is good (mainly because it is good for you, if the wayward is affected by it to the point where they wish to reconcile it is a side effect that may or may not be wanted by you by the time it happens)

I suggest you read up on the 180 instead

the bottom line is that you can't have R without a willing and remorseful partner- some just never come out of the fog so to speak or when they do it is too late


----------



## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

MadAndConfused said:


> So what is the modified plan you suggest? I am trying not to initiate any contact. When he contacts I try to keep to the point, I do not get to further discussions. Is this ok?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If your in plan B your dark , no direct contact. Use an intermediary to filter out the dross.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

sadcalifornian said:


> I don't think anybody here has beef with Plan B. It is Plan A that we don't have much faith in.


:iagree:


----------



## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Plan A should actually be the 180 and Plan B should be filing for divorce. Now that is a winning combination for a betrayed spouse whether the marriage recovers or ends.


----------



## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

morituri said:


> Plan A should actually be the 180 and Plan B should be filing for divorce. Now that is a winning combination for a betrayed spouse whether the marriage recovers or ends.


:iagree:

And you didn't a Dr in front of your name to come up with that.


----------



## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

lordmayhem said:


> :iagree:
> 
> And you didn't a Dr in front of your name to come up with that.


True but then again I'm not milking people's wallets for telephone coaching sessions that range in the hundreds of dollars. There's gold in them their cheatin' hills lordmayhem, yeeehah!


----------



## marksaysay (Oct 15, 2010)

I will say that I'm an advocate of Plan A and Plan B. I also think that many misunderstand their purposes. While it seems that doing plan a while a spouse is in an affair is unsuccessful when trying to win a spouse back, winning the spouse is not what its for. Plan A very rarely wins back a cheating spouse. What it does is set the table for Plan B by letting them see the BS in all their glory. They see the BS be the best spouse they can be and then....their gone. 

Plan A is to let the DS know what they will miss once the BS leaves their life via plan b. Plan b is also for the purpose of allowing the BS to distance themselves from the DS and heal from the turmoil caused by the adultery. When all is said and done, the BS does end up "Surviving An Affair".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

If they have been married, don't they already know what they will be missing?


----------



## marksaysay (Oct 15, 2010)

Well, yes and no. A counsellor once told me that infidelity is not the problem in your marriage. Its a sign that there were already problems. 

With that said, I don't think any BS will honestly say they were the perfect spouse meaning there is always things to change. Since one cannot change the things the DS did, you work on changing you. If a BS thinks they didn't contribute to the conditions of the marriage pr-affair, they aren't being honest with themselves. 

In PLAN A, you start taking responsibility for you. You start learning about what it means to.be married, to be a husband/wife and you start making changes. You start honestly assessing what you've done and make an effort to permanently correct your mistakes on the way to a better you. You learn to be the best husband/wife for the benefit of your current marriage or any future relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

While I agree with you, mark, that no one is perfect, in many cases the Ws is so messed up that he or she was the main contributor to pre-affair problems. Studies have shown( iIread this somewhere) that , overwhelmingly, the cheater caused most of the marital strife pre-A.
In my case, while not perfect, I was a good, decent husband(IMO). I really would not have known what to do differently to appease my personality disordered spouse. She was/is a bottomless pit of selfishness and dysfunction.


----------



## Soccerfan73 (Jul 30, 2011)

Arnold said:


> Yes, I saw thatpost on Surviving, about the WS choosing etc. It sickened me, this group of cheaters acting as if they were so incredibly brave for having chosen to allow the BS to remain with them. But, the nice thing about posts like that is that they demonstrate the narcissim which is rampant among cheaters.
> *You'll also notice , if you read cheaters posts much, that there is a significant drop off in intellect among them, as well as maturity. Many seem drawn to new agish concepts and "spirituality" which is in direct conflict with the behaviors they demonstrated. You'll hear all about "soulmates" ,"connection", "emotional needs " etc.*


:iagree:


----------



## marksaysay (Oct 15, 2010)

Arnold said:


> While I agree with you, mark, that no one is perfect, in many cases the Ws is so messed up that he or she was the main contributor to pre-affair problems. Studies have shown( iIread this somewhere) that , overwhelmingly, the cheater caused most of the marital strife pre-A.
> In my case, while not perfect, I was a good, decent husband(IMO). I really would not have known what to do differently to appease my personality disordered spouse. She was/is a bottomless pit of selfishness and dysfunction.


I understand wayward's are messed up. I also understand that marriage's aren't made or broken primarily because of the actions of one. Yes, one may have some major issues but how do you react to those issues, for example, one who is hot-headed and blows off the handle about everything. Do you banter back and forth with them or do you try to diffuse the argument in some way? 

As it was stated "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction". You may not have had the issue in a certain area, but you may not have done much to try to help it either. 

I've learned a lot about where my ww fell short but also and more importantly about where I fell short. The MB plan is about personal recovery even if the marriage doesn't recover.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

From my experience with Plan A/Plan B, and from other's experiences with it, the personal recovery could have been attained much faster and with less pain for the betrayed spouse, had he/she simply had gone to the 180 and then Plan B.


----------



## marksaysay (Oct 15, 2010)

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the 180 designed for a walkaway spouse? I'm not sure the wayward is the same.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

marksaysay said:


> I understand wayward's are messed up. I also understand that marriage's aren't made or broken primarily because of the actions of one. Yes, one may have some major issues but how do you react to those issues, for example, one who is hot-headed and blows off the handle about everything. Do you banter back and forth with them or do you try to diffuse the argument in some way?
> 
> As it was stated "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction". You may not have had the issue in a certain area, but you may not have done much to try to help it either.
> 
> ...


This is not always true. The 50/50 attribution is somewhat imprecise. In dealing with a personality disordered spouse(and many chaeters are disordered) nothing one does or does not do matters. Thye just rage and trigger over the most innocuous things.


----------

