# Am I over reacting??



## stuck in los angeles (Feb 15, 2013)

Hello all,

Been married 7 years now. Second marriage for both, we each have kids separately. She has one, I have three. Her's is grown and at home, one of mine is living with us and the other two with my x-wife.

Many of us know, marriages usually will not experience affairs without problems like neglect or lacking something that causes a spouse to look elsewhere for what is not being met at home. I have to be honest, my marriage did have it's share of problems. I was complacent and stopped striving to keep it alive and interesting. We both work and have the responsibilities of raising kids that kept up busy and so the marriage was not at the top of the list of what needed attention. We really never argued and for the most part got along well. We did go on short vacations, to concerts, etc., without the kids.

About four years ago my wife mentioned that a group of about 10 men and one lesbian that work in another department make a yearly trip to Las Vegas without thier spouses and significant others to drink, party and who knows what else. I think they stay a week or so. My wife also mentioned that two of the men, "Jim and Bob" had invited her to go along with them next trip. That was about all that was said the time and I thought it was nothing to really worry about and I just filed it away in my head without much thought. 

A year later, one of the men that asked last time, "Jim", asked her again if she would go. I didn't really think much of it, just thought she wouldn't do it anyway, and no big deal. 

Another year later, the same guy "Jim" asked her to go with them. She tells me she replied "I'll go if my husband can go". I asked her what his response was and she kind of changed the subject. She said to me "Don't you think that would be fun to go with them?". I said let me turn this around on you... Lets say a group of women I work with and a gay man, go to Vegas without thier spouses and ask me to go along, would you want to go? She said "Okay, I get your point".

Well now, this same man "Jim", asked her again to go and was joking with "Bob" about her driving, etc. in her presence. She told me about this over Valentines day lunch. At this point I said that this man is hitting on her and I don't like it. She says she's known him for over 10 years and he wouldn't even be thinking of getting her in bed and that he's not flirting or hitting on her, just joking around. She also said that the group would expect her to pay her own way, and that he wouldn't have her pay her own way to get her out there to "F" her.

This man also has recently asked her to lunch just the two of them. She turned him down. He is married too.

My wife is the flirty type too, and likes to throw out sexual innuendos around many of the men she works with.

My questions to you all is, one, is this man not hitting on my wife with the repetitive invitations? And two, my wife acts like she's ignorant of men's intentions yet I think she knows what his intentions are, and if I'm right she enjoys the attention, so she denies any bad intentions on his part just to keep it going. Could I be correct, that she does know but enjoys the attention?


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

I'm with you on this one. I'd ask her if she thinks Jim's wife knows about all this and if she says she thinks his wife knows, I'd invite them out as a couple so it could all come out in the open during dinner conversation. If it's really not a problem, great, but I suspect Jim would tone things done a great deal.


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## Rags (Aug 2, 2010)

I suspect he's fishing. 

If she's the flirty type, he may be interpreting her responses as positive, and is hoping she'll eventually succumb - but I doubt he's invested in it, and if she rebuffed him, I'm fairly sure he'd back off.

Now, how do you get her to rebuff him?

In your place, I'd insist on it, no questions. My wife is NOT going off for a week with a bunch of colleagues for 'fun' - no matter if I'm invited or not!


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## stuck in los angeles (Feb 15, 2013)

Last night I pressed her for an answer to what his reply was when she said she would go if her husband could go. She replied "they don't take thier spouses". Notice, she didn't even say that he said that. 

There's a lot more to her story, she's been traveling for work and out of town for several months at a time. Last time out, she had asked several different male coworkers out to dinner, just the two of them. The whole group of them drink almost every outing, including my wife. I later said I didn't like it, would never do that to her, and it has to stop. I told her I didn't have a problem with her out with a group, but that her alone with another man is like a date. She hung up on me, called me back later drunk and said "I'm not going to change that for you and if you don't like it, you can leave" and "I'm not the same woman you married. I've changed." She's insisting the problem is my lack of trust, and that nothing with her behaviour is wrong.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Take her at her word. Leave. That's a pretty strong statement for her to make, and it's one I would encourage you not to ignore or minimize.

Show that you are serious about not letting her date other men. She's venturing into affair territory in a huge way.


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## stuck in los angeles (Feb 15, 2013)

KathyBatesel said:


> She's venturing into affair territory in a huge way.


That's my opinion too. She tells me "I've been cheated on by my first husband. I know how much it hurts and I would never put that hurt on you." I think that's BS, ANYONE is capable of cheating. My gut has been telling me for a while that she's not been on the level about everything she's been temted to do. I really feel she's strugling with the temptations in her thoughts. She's getting ready to go out of town for two months again and it's on the other side of the country.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

stuck in los angeles said:


> Last night I pressed her for an answer to what his reply was when she said she would go if her husband could go. She replied "they don't take thier spouses". Notice, she didn't even say that he said that.
> 
> There's a lot more to her story, she's been traveling for work and out of town for several months at a time. Last time out, she had asked several different male coworkers out to dinner, just the two of them. The whole group of them drink almost every outing, including my wife. I later said I didn't like it, would never do that to her, and it has to stop. I told her I didn't have a problem with her out with a group, but that her alone with another man is like a date. She hung up on me, called me back later drunk and said "I'm not going to change that for you and if you don't like it, you can leave" and "I'm not the same woman you married. I've changed." She's insisting the problem is my lack of trust, and that nothing with her behaviour is wrong.


CWI veterans may be able to help you better on this. It sounds very VERY suspicious. Sorry.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

UMMM>>she wants you to go with her..She should have asked directly..but in her way she was asking you to go..she mentions the "other men" gay or not because she wishes it was you asking her.

SO step up and go with her..Or if its that important not to don't and say "go and have a good time"

In her round about stupid(no offense) way she was asking YOU to ask her to take her to Las vegas..(thats my best guess)..


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> My questions to you all is, one, is this man not hitting on my wife with the repetitive invitations?


I'M sure there are more than one man that will hit on your wife..She wants YOU to hit on her..She wants YOU to invite her and show her a good time..Did you consider that at all?


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

> My questions to you all is, one, is this man not hitting on my wife with the repetitive invitations? And two, my wife acts like she's ignorant of men's intentions yet I think she knows what his intentions are, and if I'm right she enjoys the attention, so she denies any bad intentions on his part just to keep it going. Could I be correct, that she does know but enjoys the attention?


Yes, the man "Jim" is fishing, he finds her attractive. Yes, your wife knows the intent and the she enjoys the attention. Including the attention from you she gets by telling you about all of these interactions. She is letting you know that others find her desirable, perhaps looking for some desire from you OR she enjoys making you feel threatened. 

Yes, her interactions dinner alone with men and sexual innuendos with male co workers are innappropriate. Not only because she is married, it is innappropriate conduct in any job. 

Yes, her response to you on the phone, about the issue was wrong and highly suspect. You have trust issues because she is giving you a lot of good reasons not to trust her. If she believes that all of these behaviors are perfectly acceptable then I suggest you decide if you married the right woman.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

When I travel for business I often end up having dinner and sometimes a drink or two with the people from my company. We tend to all stay in the same hotel.

There have been times when it was just me and a guy I work with from Minneapolis. At that time we talked on the phone and emailed, im-ed for work all day long as we were developing a software/hardware product together. We have had dinner in the hotel restaurant together. It was not a date. It was two people who work together eating at the same table and talking. Of course our company paid each of our bills, separately.

The hotels often have free happy hour with tickets for one or two glasses of wine.

Sometimes it's all men and me. Sometimes there are other women.

I've never seen anyone make a pass at anyone else.

Because women and men travel to the same location for work, it does not mean that they are having affairs. 

Now your wife getting drunk is bad. That alone could get someone in a lot of trouble where I work. A couple of drinks is ok. Getting drunk is not tolerated.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> Because women and men travel to the same location for work, it does not mean that they are having affairs.


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## stuck in los angeles (Feb 15, 2013)

My wife and I work for related companies. From my conversations with others I've known, affairs are not that uncommon at this location. One of the guys my wife knows at work left his wife for a woman he was fooling around with there. At least a couple of others that were there this time were having affairs, my wife told me so and it was kind of common knowledge who was hooking up with who. My wife said that "it's not the women that are cheating, it's the men". But she would defend her going out to dinner with the men she was with by telling me "they all do it". Well, that's not very comforting reassurance to me knowing some of the group are having affairs. And then when she came home, she was constantly deleting her texts and to me seemed suddenly secretive with her cell phone. Then I find that the only picture on her new laptop is of one of the men out there she was with the most. But of coarse "she doesn't know how that picture got on her laptop".

I can see that in some circles of coworkers, there may be more integrity than others. But when you're around others that are having affairs, after a while it may not seem all that bad an idea. Especially when the marriage is not that strong and there is really no way for the spouse to find out.


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

> Because women and men travel to the same location for work, it does not mean that they are having affairs.


I agree, but the way the poster phrased it:



> Last time out, she had asked several different male coworkers out to dinner, just the two of them


Maybe just the posters interpretation of his wife's behavior but asking different men in your group out to dinner individually is a bit off. There is a lot of group activity during work travel and people working on projects together. I think I just tried to imagine a scenario in which I would have individually invited different men to dinner with me alone on a business trip. I could not imagine a situation in which I would that. Doesn't necessarily mean anything is going on (like affair) but her reaction to him when he brought it up was defensive not understanding.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

stuck in los angeles said:


> My wife and I work for related companies. From my conversations with others I've known, affairs are not that uncommon at this location. One of the guys my wife knows at work left his wife for a woman he was fooling around with there. At least a couple of others that were there this time were having affairs, my wife told me so and it was kind of common knowledge who was hooking up with who. My wife said that "it's not the women that are cheating, it's the men". But she would defend her going out to dinner with the men she was with by telling me "they all do it". Well, that's not very comforting reassurance to me knowing some of the group are having affairs. And then when she came home, she was constantly deleting her texts and to me seemed suddenly secretive with her cell phone. Then I find that the only picture on her new laptop is of one of the men out there she was with the most. But of coarse "she doesn't know how that picture got on her laptop".
> 
> I can see that in some circles of coworkers, there may be more integrity than others. But when you're around others that are having affairs, after a while it may not seem all that bad an idea. Especially when the marriage is not that strong and there is really no way for the spouse to find out.


I think you have a good reason to feel on alert. You can see how something like this can turn into something really bad.


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## stuck in los angeles (Feb 15, 2013)

coffee4me said:


> Asking different men in your group out to dinner individually is a bit off.


That's how I see it too. To clarify, yes, it was dinner alone with different men on different nights. One of the men she asked if he would drive because the restaurant was 40 minutes away and "she wanted to have a couple drinks with her dinner". And the place was kind of dark. So here she would be having a nice dinner alone with this guy, have a couple drinks, and then be back in his car for a long drive back to the hotel. 

Honestly, I don't want to be a jealous idiot but at the same time, there is just too much weird stuff that I would feel like a total disloyal ass of a husband to do the same thing to her and tell her just to accept it.


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## In_The_Wind (Feb 17, 2012)

Rags said:


> I suspect he's fishing.
> 
> If she's the flirty type, he may be interpreting her responses as positive, and is hoping she'll eventually succumb - but I doubt he's invested in it, and if she rebuffed him, I'm fairly sure he'd back off.
> 
> ...


^^^ BINGO I agree he is fishing


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## In_The_Wind (Feb 17, 2012)

stuck in los angeles said:


> That's how I see it too. To clarify, yes, it was dinner alone with different men on different nights. One of the men she asked if he would drive because the restaurant was 40 minutes away and "she wanted to have a couple drinks with her dinner". And the place was kind of dark. So here she would be having a nice dinner alone with this guy, have a couple drinks, and then be back in his car for a long drive back to the hotel.
> 
> Honestly, I don't want to be a jealous idiot but at the same time, there is just too much weird stuff that I would feel like a total disloyal ass of a husband to do the same thing to her and tell her just to accept it.


how would she act if the situation were reversed or it was you being hit on at work and a married or single gal wanted to take you to dinner ???


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

> She hung up on me, called me back later drunk and said *"I'm not going to change that for you and if you don't like it, you can leave" and "I'm not the same woman you married. I've changed."*


Drunks tell the truth.

This entire statement would have me on edge.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

A Bit Much said:


> Drunks tell the truth.
> 
> This entire statement would have me on edge.


If she keeps this up ask her to take a polygraph test and by her reaction you'll know if she has cheated or not jmo.


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## stuck in los angeles (Feb 15, 2013)

In_The_Wind said:


> how would she act if the situation were reversed or it was you being hit on at work and a married or single gal wanted to take you to dinner ???


Knowing her, I think if I did that, she would feel justified in escalating what she's doing. Instead of being apologetic and changing her ways to protect the marriage. She's always been a bit harsh but never this much. I guess she has changed.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

I wouldn't put too much stock in her statement about how her being cheated on let her understand how much hurt it causes and how she wouldn't do that to you. Here's why...

1. Her understanding is based on the one being cheated. She cannot see the cheater's needs being fulfilled in ways that aren't happening at home. Now that she's in the cheater's shoes, cheating suddenly can start to seem more understandable to her.

2. She does perceive something missing in your relationship, or she would have put a stop to this early on. She's giving a fair effort to include you, which is reassuring, but the longer this conflict goes on the more reason she will have to resent you and find peace in the presence of people who are saying she's right and you're wrong. 

You know how defense lawyers (on tv and in real life) always tell their clients not to talk? That's because the longer a person talks or engages, the more info their enemy has that can be used against them. This is true for marriage, too. If she's seeing some resentments that make other men's attention appealing to her, the more you stick around and argue about this the more reason you give her to cheat.


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## stuck in los angeles (Feb 15, 2013)

KathyBatesel said:


> I wouldn't put too much stock in her statement about how her being cheated on let her understand how much hurt it causes and how she wouldn't do that to you. Here's why...
> 
> 1. Her understanding is based on the one being cheated. She cannot see the cheater's needs being fulfilled in ways that aren't happening at home. Now that she's in the cheater's shoes, cheating suddenly can start to seem more understandable to her.
> 
> ...


I like your posts and your reasoning is good. Thanks and if you have any more thoughts, please share them.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

coffee4me said:


> Maybe just the posters interpretation of his wife's behavior but asking different men in your group out to dinner individually is a bit off. There is a lot of group activity during work travel and people working on projects together. I think I just tried to imagine a scenario in which I would have individually invited different men to dinner with me alone on a business trip. I could not imagine a situation in which I would that. Doesn't necessarily mean anything is going on (like affair) but her reaction to him when he brought it up was defensive not understanding.


I agree that it would be odd to ask a each guy out to dinner seperately. What that does that mean however? Is she having an affair with each of them?

Not knowing the exact circumstance it's hard to say what was going on. Sometimes there is only one person around and you say "hey let's grab a bite". It does not mean you made a date with that person. And each night it could be a diff person who is around. If two guys were there she might have gone to dinner with two of them.

We don't know.


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## stuck in los angeles (Feb 15, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> I agree that it would be odd to ask a each guy out to dinner seperately. What that does that mean however? Is she having an affair with each of them?
> 
> Not knowing the exact circumstance it's hard to say what was going on. Sometimes there is only one person around and you say "hey let's grab a bite". It does not mean you made a date with that person. And each night it could be a diff person who is around. If two guys were there she might have gone to dinner with two of them.
> 
> We don't know.


During the argument on the phone (when she said to leave if I don't like it), I asked her how she would feel if she was at home and I was doing this, she said she "would be suspicious". That argument went on for 180 minutes with her telling me that she was just not going to tell me what she's doing and with whom anymore. She wouldn't conceed at all during that whole call that she would not do it if it makes me uneasy.

I don't honestly think she's having an affair with each of them and hopefully none of them. Is it possible though, that she feels curious about some other men and is testing the waters to see if she enjoys the company of any of them enough to take it further? Only she knows that. I would argue the more she does this, the more chance for her to run accross one of them that may spark her interest. I personally think it's a risky thing to do a lot of when you're married. Let's face it, even though a person is married does not mean they cannot become attracted to someone else. I've seen my wife checking guys out when we're out to dinner and she admitted she does it.

I do agree with you about simply grabbing a bite to eat and it's not my intention to make my wife miserable and possibly push her away and into someone else's arms. But I do think she's being completely insensitive and uncaring in her response to my concerns. It seems to me that she wants to solely decide what's ok in our marriage. It's not about mutual consideration and compromise for the other. It's all about her and what she wants.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

stuck in los angeles said:


> Last night I pressed her for an answer to what his reply was when she said she would go if her husband could go. She replied "they don't take thier spouses". Notice, she didn't even say that he said that.
> 
> There's a lot more to her story, *she's been traveling for work and out of town for several months at a time.* Last time out, she had asked several different male coworkers out to dinner, just the two of them. The whole group of them drink almost every outing, including my wife. I later said I didn't like it, would never do that to her, and it has to stop. I told her I didn't have a problem with her out with a group, but that her alone with another man is like a date. She hung up on me, called me back later drunk and said "I'm not going to change that for you and if you don't like it, you can leave" and "I'm not the same woman you married. I've changed." She's insisting the problem is my lack of trust, and that nothing with her behaviour is wrong.


Your wife travels for work?

This is not going to end well for you my friend. 

It's time for you to connect the dots and figure out what's going on behind your back.


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

stuck in los angeles said:


> During the argument on the phone (when she said to leave if I don't like it), I asked her how she would feel if she was at home and I was doing this, she said she "would be suspicious". That argument went on for 180 minutes with her telling me that she was just not going to tell me what she's doing and with whom anymore. She wouldn't conceed at all during that whole call that she would not do it if it makes me uneasy.
> 
> I don't honestly think she's having an affair with each of them and hopefully none of them. Is it possible though, that she feels curious about some other men and is testing the waters to see if she enjoys the company of any of them enough to take it further? Only she knows that. I would argue the more she does this, the more chance for her to run accross one of them that may spark her interest. I personally think it's a risky thing to do a lot of when you're married. Let's face it, even though a person is married does not mean they cannot become attracted to someone else. I've seen my wife checking guys out when we're out to dinner and she admitted she does it.
> 
> I do agree with you about simply grabbing a bite to eat and it's not my intention to make my wife miserable and possibly push her away and into someone else's arms. But I do think she's being completely insensitive and uncaring in her response to my concerns. It seems to me that she wants to solely decide what's ok in our marriage. It's not about mutual consideration and compromise for the other. It's all about her and what she wants.


Yeah, it might not be happening right now but it will sooner or later. 
I don't want anything to do with other women, but, if I was away from my wife for extended times and around other women, it would only be a matter of time.

And I say that knowing I really don't want anyone else.


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## stuck in los angeles (Feb 15, 2013)

keko said:


> Your wife travels for work?
> 
> This is not going to end well for you my friend.
> 
> It's time for you to connect the dots and figure out what's going on behind your back.


Not normally but the opportunity came up for her to go for 10 weeks last year and she took it. While she was out there, she called me and said that a position is opening up that will have her traveling on a more regular basis and much of the time with the lead guy Joe, who's picture was on her laptop. She first applied for it. Then turned it down "to stay home and work on our marriage". Then a week later Joe stopped by her office to ask her to reconsider. She told him that "she wasn't going to jeapardize her marriage for it". Then a month later when she was with the group of guys at work, one guy was giving another guy a shoulder massage, she looked at that and then she threw one of her innuendos out there to Joe, the lead, and said something to the effect of "Do me Joe. You would do me, wouldn't you Joe?", playing off the massage thing. She told me about it later too, like she thought it was clever. Then a week later Joe said he needed her assistance to help out for one trip. Then it was "I'm probably going to take that job and continue to go out there". Honestly, to me there's something wrong with someone who thinks an innuendo like that is ok and not be embarrassed for it. It's really juvenile behavior and looks s!utty. When I consider how she turned down the job, then took it and all the stuff related to Joe, I can't help but think maybe she's involved with Joe and tried but failed to fight the temptation and finally gave in to keeping the thing going with him. He's married too. She is highly regarded for her work performance but that's just not right at all.


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## pink_lady (Dec 1, 2012)

stuck in los angeles said:


> when she was with the group of guys at work, one guy was giving another guy a shoulder massage, she looked at that and then she threw one of her innuendos out there to Joe, the lead, and said something to the effect of "Do me Joe. You would do me, wouldn't you Joe?", playing off the massage thing. She told me about it later too, like she thought it was clever.


I can't imagine why she would tell you this unless she was trying hard to get your attention by making you jealous, or keep you on edge and insecure.

If I heard a female co-worker say that to a man I'd be embarrassed for her. It seems desperate.

Does she need more attention from you?


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## curlysue321 (Jul 30, 2012)

i would trust your wife. She isn't begging to go on the trips and then said she'd only go if she could take her spouse. She didn't have lunch with the guy. He may be hitting on her and perhaps she enjoys the attention, but she's not biting.


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

curlysue321 said:


> i would trust your wife. She isn't begging to go on the trips and then said she'd only go if she could take her spouse. She didn't have lunch with the guy. He may be hitting on her and perhaps she enjoys the attention, but she's not biting.



Huh?

Trusting in this situation with ANYONE is a mistake.


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## jfv (May 29, 2012)

stuck in los angeles said:


> Not normally but the opportunity came up for her to go for 10 weeks last year and she took it. While she was out there, she called me and said that a position is opening up that will have her traveling on a more regular basis and much of the time with the lead guy Joe, who's picture was on her laptop. She first applied for it. Then turned it down "to stay home and work on our marriage". Then a week later Joe stopped by her office to ask her to reconsider. She told him that "she wasn't going to jeapardize her marriage for it". Then a month later when she was with the group of guys at work, one guy was giving another guy a shoulder massage, she looked at that and then she threw one of her innuendos out there to Joe, the lead, and said something to the effect of "Do me Joe. You would do me, wouldn't you Joe?", playing off the massage thing. She told me about it later too, like she thought it was clever. Then a week later Joe said he needed her assistance to help out for one trip. Then it was "I'm probably going to take that job and continue to go out there". Honestly, to me there's something wrong with someone who thinks an innuendo like that is ok and not be embarrassed for it. It's really juvenile behavior and looks s!utty. When I consider how she turned down the job, then took it and all the stuff related to Joe, *I can't help but think maybe she's involved with Joe and tried but failed to fight the temptation and finally gave *in *to keeping the thing going with him*. He's married too. She is highly regarded for her work performance but that's just not right at all.


I'm afraid this scenario is the most likely one. Tell her to get off the road and come home, or you are filing for divorce. 
After all, she did tell you to leave if you didn't like it.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

So in the end she didn't choose working on her marriage. She threw out nothing more than cheap talk because her actions did not follow through on it. 

There is also something very wrong with a group that travels all the time for work away from spouses then leaving the spouses to go off an personal party vacation together.

It screams birth cheating, and his little they like their spouses.

High travel jobs like your wife's are not compatable with successful marriages.


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## btdt (Nov 19, 2012)

Lots of red flags here with the two most telling being that she took the job knowing it would jeopardize the marriage and her outburst telling you she's not changing and that you can leave if you don't like it. She's either already cheating or is well down the path to doing so.

It's probably time for you to have a come to Jesus meeting with her and let her know its either the job or the marriage. She needs to be out if that toxic work environment immediately if your marriage is going to survive. And if she's going to choose the job and coworker over you, then you might as well know that now and not prolong the heartache.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

stuck in los angeles said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Been married 7 years now.


How old are you two? Any kids?



stuck in los angeles said:


> About four years ago my wife mentioned that a group of about 10 men and one lesbian that work in another department make a yearly trip to Las Vegas without thier spouses and significant others to drink, party and who knows what else. I think they stay a week or so. My wife also mentioned that two of the men, "Jim and Bob" had invited her to go along with them next trip. That was about all that was said the time and I thought it was nothing to really worry about and I just filed it away in my head without much thought.


Did she ask you if she could go, or did she just say she was asked to attend? Did she bring this up to you before the dates this trip was supposed to take place? Any chance she attended without you knowing about it? Say, while she was supposed to be in Peoria on a job, maybe she was really in Vegas. Any possibility of that?



stuck in los angeles said:


> A year later, one of the men that asked last time, "Jim", asked her again if she would go. I didn't really think much of it, just thought she wouldn't do it anyway, and no big deal.


Both of the above questions about Vegas Trip #1 still apply for Vegas Trip #2. Did she ask permission from you and is there any chance she attended covertly?



stuck in los angeles said:


> Another year later, the same guy "Jim" asked her to go with them. She tells me she replied "I'll go if my husband can go". I asked her what his response was and she kind of changed the subject. She said to me "Don't you think that would be fun to go with them?". I said let me turn this around on you... Lets say a group of women I work with and a gay man, go to Vegas without thier spouses and ask me to go along, would you want to go? She said "Okay, I get your point".
> 
> Well now, this same man "Jim", asked her again to go and was joking with "Bob" about her driving, etc. in her presence. She told me about this over Valentines day lunch.


When is this trip supposed to take place? This was just this past Thursday?



stuck in los angeles said:


> At this point I said that this man is hitting on her and I don't like it. She says she's known him for over 10 years and he wouldn't even be thinking of getting her in bed and that he's not flirting or hitting on her, just joking around. She also said that the group would expect her to pay her own way, and that he wouldn't have her pay her own way to get her out there to "F" her.


Did Jim say that about not making her pay if he was going to fook her? If he did, that's pretty crass and is a straight up proposition. He's actually making a veiled offer to pay, if she puts out. If Jim didn't say that and your wife came up with that little formulation on her own, I'd say he's already nailing her or she's decided to do it and this payment business is misdirection aimed at you.



stuck in los angeles said:


> This man also has recently asked her to lunch just the two of them. She turned him down. He is married too.


Your wife is telling you this. You realize it could be a lie and they could have lunch together everyday and you would never know.



stuck in los angeles said:


> My wife is the flirty type too, and likes to throw out sexual innuendos around many of the men she works with.


She's fishing. Here's how it works, she puts a line out and if an unattractive male goes for it, she's shocked! What a loser to think she was serious! If a hot guy hits the bait, she reels him in. For many years, when I was in my prime I worked with a large number of women who were always casting their lines more or less in my direction, so I know the score.



stuck in los angeles said:


> My questions to you all is, one, is this man not hitting on my wife with the repetitive invitations?


I'd say it's more likely they are already involved and she's wanting to you to allow her to go explicitly. In a WW's mind, if you allowed her to go, this would be tantamount to permission to fook.



stuck in los angeles said:


> And two, my wife acts like she's ignorant of men's intentions yet I think she knows what his intentions are, and if I'm right she enjoys the attention, so she denies any bad intentions on his part just to keep it going. Could I be correct, that she does know but enjoys the attention?


Women know and they don't know at the same time. When it's a guy they find attractive, they know what they're doing. They're shocked and repelled when they do the same behavior and get a hit on their line from an unattractive guy. Your wife knows exactly what she's doing.



stuck in los angeles said:


> Last night I pressed her for an answer to what his reply was when she said she would go if her husband could go. She replied "they don't take thier spouses". Notice, she didn't even say that he said that.


Okay, so it was this week.



stuck in los angeles said:


> There's a lot more to her story, she's been traveling for work and out of town for several months at a time.


Several months out at a time? I may allow one of my girlfriends to do a job like that, but not my wife.



stuck in los angeles said:


> Last time out, she had asked several different male coworkers out to dinner, just the two of them. The whole group of them drink almost every outing, including my wife.


So, your wife is out drinking with a group after work, then having one on one dinners afterwards with select guys she invites out. So, when Jim asks her out to eat locally, she won't go with him, but when she's out in the field SHE asks men out. This sounds to me like your wife's Rationalization Hamster is telling her she's single away from home and loyal at home. That's a very common rationalization and not just for WWs. 



stuck in los angeles said:


> I later said I didn't like it, would never do that to her, and it has to stop.


That's a good first step, but I'd go one further: leave the job. She's employed at a swinger's club. Yes, those kind of shops do exist, I worked in one for over 20 years. If the top people live that way, it permeates the organization.



stuck in los angeles said:


> I told her I didn't have a problem with her out with a group, but that her alone with another man is like a date. She hung up on me, called me back later drunk


As the Romans said long ago, _"In Vino Veritas."_



stuck in los angeles said:


> and said "I'm not going to change that for you and if you don't like it, you can leave" and *"I'm not the same woman you married. I've changed."*


This means she has changed her moral views and translated into manspeak she is saying: "I've tried fooking other guys on these trips and I've decided I like being a sloot. In fact, I love it and should have become a sloot long ago. I've changed so much, being a full time sloot is now the real me. I'm not going to stop, even if you leave me."



stuck in los angeles said:


> She's insisting the problem is my lack of trust, and that nothing with her behaviour is wrong.


Gaslighting. She raises your suspicions by saying guys are hitting on her (when she's initiating fooking) then lowers the light by saying it's all in your head. Classic gaslighting.



stuck in los angeles said:


> That's my opinion too. She tells me "I've been cheated on by my first husband. I know how much it hurts and I would never put that hurt on you." I think that's BS, ANYONE is capable of cheating. My gut has been telling me for a while that she's not been on the level about everything she's been temted to do.


We're way past the temptation level at this point. It's a deal that's probably been done many times.



stuck in los angeles said:


> I really feel she's strugling with the temptations in her thoughts. She's getting ready to go out of town for two months again and it's on the other side of the country.


Does Jim or Bob go on these trips with her or does she have a different rotation of men?



stuck in los angeles said:


> Knowing her, I think if I did that, she would feel justified in escalating what she's doing. Instead of being apologetic and changing her ways to protect the marriage. She's always been a bit harsh but never this much. I guess she has changed.


Sex with a number of guys outside the marriage does change women. No question about that.



stuck in los angeles said:


> During the argument on the phone (when she said to leave if I don't like it), I asked her how she would feel if she was at home and I was doing this, she said she "would be suspicious". That argument went on for 180 minutes with her telling me that she was just not going to tell me what she's doing and with whom anymore. She wouldn't conceed at all during that whole call that she would not do it if it makes me uneasy.


What's your sex life like when she's at home?



stuck in los angeles said:


> I don't honestly think she's having an affair with each of them and hopefully none of them.


I would suggest that these hopes are already thoroughly dashed.



stuck in los angeles said:


> Is it possible though, that she feels curious about some other men and is testing the waters to see if she enjoys the company of any of them enough to take it further? Only she knows that.


Based on her gaslighting and the fact that she's told you in girlspeak that she has "changed", meaning she no longer feels sexually bound by matrimony, I'd say she's gone all the way. For at least as long as she's been on these road trips.



stuck in los angeles said:


> I would argue the more she does this, the more chance for her to run accross one of them that may spark her interest. I personally think it's a risky thing to do a lot of when you're married. Let's face it, even though a person is married does not mean they cannot become attracted to someone else.


This is true, but it's also too late to do anything about it. Unless you want to try to save the marriage for some reason.



stuck in los angeles said:


> I've seen my wife checking guys out when we're out to dinner and she admitted she does it.


 Did she do this before she started this road job or is this new behavior? How old is she?



stuck in los angeles said:


> I do agree with you about simply grabbing a bite to eat and it's not my intention to make my wife miserable and possibly push her away and into someone else's arms.


She's already jumped. She's just now getting around to letting you know in a roundabout way. She's hoping you're up for being the husband in a so-called "hot wife" marriage. So far, you're giving her hope you'll go along with it.



stuck in los angeles said:


> But I do think she's being completely insensitive and uncaring in her response to my concerns. It seems to me that she wants to solely decide what's ok in our marriage. It's not about mutual consideration and compromise for the other. It's all about her and what she wants.


Well, it seems to be working out for her, so far.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

stuck in los angeles said:


> While she was out there, she called me and said that a position is opening up that will have her traveling on a more regular basis and much of the time with the lead guy Joe, who's picture was on her laptop. She first applied for it. Then turned it down "to stay home and work on our marriage". Then a week later Joe stopped by her office to ask her to reconsider. She told him that "she wasn't going to jeapardize her marriage for it".


 This tells you that she does not have to be traveling if she did not want to. 10 weeks at a time is very long and not a normal expectation for married people. Tell her that like she first told Joe, she needs to stay home and work on the marraige. Tell her that the work traveling is in fact damaging the marriage and that you want her to no longer do it. If she objects, tell her that marraige is suppose to be a two way street where the needs of both are taken into account and that she is ignoring your needs completely.

You know in your heart that the current situation is such that if does not change, your marriage is doomed in the long run. Thus you must initiate a change. You must be willing to leave the marraige to have a chance at saving it. Let her know that she either wants to work on the marraige with you or she does not and it is over. That you will be seeing an attorney and filing for divorce before her next trip. She will probably try to call your bluff, so you must be willing to file and mean it. Remember that the divorce process takes time and that you can always stop the process if she gives you reason to. If she will let you end your marraige in this way, then it was over anyways, you just did not know it yet.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

stuck in los angeles said:


> Not normally but the opportunity came up for her to go for 10 weeks last year and she took it. While she was out there, she called me and said that a position is opening up that will have her traveling on a more regular basis and much of the time with the lead guy Joe, who's picture was on her laptop. She first applied for it.


Joe has most definitely nailed her. Don't know about Jim and Bob and all the others, but Joe has been in the saddle. And because of actions and words, I'd say more guys have been there since Joe, but Joe was the first. That's when she decided to go for the traveling with Joe. For a woman, affair sex is the hottest sex there is. It's a huge blast of dopamine, norepinephrine, serotonin, adrenalin, and testosterone. The didn't use a rubber either, so her body was able to absorb all the mood elevating chemicals contained in semen into her bloodstream.



stuck in los angeles said:


> Then turned it down "to stay home and *work on our marriage*".


When she was back around you, she started to reconnect (it's the bonding chemistry in her brain kicking back in as the affair sex dopamine high fades away), that made her go big time guilty and she decided to back out of the traveling and end the affair. That "work on our marriage" line is the proof that Joe fooked her silly on that trip. Did you know your marriage needed working on before that line came out of her mouth? No you didn't, but she knew it needed a lot of work on her part to set things right. And she fully intended to set things right and get back to being your wife.



stuck in los angeles said:


> Then a week later Joe stopped by her office to ask her to reconsider. She told him that "she wasn't going to jeapardize her marriage for it".


She knew exactly what was at stake if she continued "traveling" with Joe and she was giving you hints about it. Didn't any alarm bells go off in the back of your head when she told you about telling him this? When a woman is in an affair, she thinks it's obvious and when the H, who trusts his wife to do right, doesn't pick up on it, the WW devalues the husband as a fool. This is the work of her Rationalization Hamster telling her if you were really her soul mate, you would intuitively sense somehow that another guy had been making deposits in your receptacle. Of course, she's reinforcing that by throwing out these oblique hints that you naturally miss as confirming your unworthiness to mate with her. This also raises the rank of alpha mate poaching OM in comparison to clueless BH.

So, Joe is not normally in her old usual office?



stuck in los angeles said:


> Then a month later when she was with the group of guys at work, one guy was giving another guy a shoulder massage,


I won't even comment on that one.



stuck in los angeles said:


> she looked at that and then she threw one of her innuendos out there to Joe, the lead, and said something to the effect of "Do me Joe. You would do me, wouldn't you Joe?", playing off the massage thing. She told me about it later too, like she thought it was clever.


She was cleverly telling you that Joe has already done her. Your lack of an explosion tells her you're okay with it. 



stuck in los angeles said:


> Then a week later Joe said he needed her assistance to help out for one trip. Then it was "I'm probably going to take that job and continue to go out there".


She never forgot the hot sex with Joe on the first trip. She was continuing to detach somewhat from you as a result, and her guilt was fading away over time. Guilt was eventually overridden by the memory of the kinky sex (affair sex is always kinkier than husband sex). He probably pushed her over the edge with another direct injection of "Essence of Joe," and she was ready to go full time.




stuck in los angeles said:


> Honestly, to me there's something wrong with someone who thinks an innuendo like that is ok and not be embarrassed for it. It's really juvenile behavior and looks s!utty. When I consider how she turned down the job, then took it and all the stuff related to Joe, I can't help but think maybe she's involved with Joe and tried but failed to fight the temptation and finally gave in to keeping the thing going with him. He's married too. She is highly regarded for her work performance but that's just not right at all.


It's already happened with Joe and from the sounds of it, she's open to other men as well, or soon will be.

So, what do you want to do about it?


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## AlphaHalf (Aug 5, 2012)

> My wife is the flirty type too, and likes to throw out sexual innuendos around many of the men she works with.


 First of all, IMHO a so called married woman/man who does this is not marriage material to begin with.

This behavior is a guaranteed attention getter for male coworkers. Especially Male Coworkers who take trips to VEGAS without there spouses. "What ever happens in Vegas, Stays in Vegas" 

There are too many RED FLAGS going on here and your rug sweeping all of them so far.

Your wife takes work trips and flirts with a bunch of men who have very very questionable fidelity. She doesn't respect your wishes and tells you to deal with it or leave. 

Ask yourself "Does her actions as a "wife" look as if she is concerned and respectful of you and the marriage." / "For a women who has been cheated on by her former spouse, why isn't she empathizing with your concerns knowing full well how her actions look" 

You don't think she cheated yet(WAKE UP) but she already has by under-minding your ability to trust her because of her actions. This whole situation screams of infidelity. Work Trips, Alcohol, One-One Dinners,Alcohol, Partying, Alcohol, Flirting, Alcohol, Deleting Messages, Disrespecting spouses concerns, Alcohol.......


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## Snidley (Jul 5, 2011)

Stuck,

I think you may be misinterpreting what you wife is trying to tell you. You stated that she was asked to go to Vegas, but wouldn't go unless she could bring you along. She also turned down a job opportunity to work on your marriage. I would consider any information she volunteers as suspect. I think she may only be trying to make you jealous. This is a good thing, she wants your affection. Everything you know about her office situation has been volunteered by your wife, and no one else. The last thing a cheater will *ever* do is expose their affair, she has been telling you everything. 

Is it possible that things have cooled off in your marriage as of late and both of you can feel it? I believe the information she is giving is a plea for help (she wants you to fight for her). You can sense something is amiss also, but to you it feels like she is having an affair. 

As far as the dinners with male co-workers, I don't know if you really have need to be concerned. Being away from home for that long of a time, it's expected that a person would go to dinner with a co-worker. Could you imagine having dinner alone for two months? Furthermore, dining with just one person may have been an opportunity for "office talk" about other co-workers. Until you know more, I wouldn't jump to conclusions. Your Wife's innuendos with her fellow office workers do sound inappropriate, but again she is telling you about it and it sounds like she is telling you to make you jealous. 

Don't lose your marriage because you both love each other too much. Take this for what it's worth. Best of luck to you and your wife.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

stuck in los angeles said:


> Last night I pressed her for an answer to what his reply was when she said she would go if her husband could go. She replied "they don't take thier spouses". Notice, she didn't even say that he said that.
> 
> There's a lot more to her story, she's been traveling for work and out of town for several months at a time. Last time out, she had asked several different male coworkers out to dinner, just the two of them. The whole group of them drink almost every outing, including my wife. I later said I didn't like it, would never do that to her, and it has to stop. I told her I didn't have a problem with her out with a group, but that her alone with another man is like a date. She hung up on me, called me back later drunk and said "I'm not going to change that for you and if you don't like it, you can leave" and "I'm not the same woman you married. I've changed." She's insisting the problem is my lack of trust, and that nothing with her behaviour is wrong.


I go on business trips. I make sure I am never alone with any of my female colleagues. Especially late at night in the hotel bar drinking.
There are times we share car to the airport or do go to dinner. But this never happens if there are other colleagues available. 

Basically yes these guys are fishing. Yes they would bang you wife in a heartbeat. Yes she likes the attention. Yes this type of life style erodes boundaries. She should not be drinking with these men on these trips. In a group is one thing. Then again she should not be drinking very much at all in this setting.

I would not be ok with any of this. She leaves for several months? Huh? NFW.

Anyway my wife saying what your did would make me file. Seriously. First her being drunk with these men would be a dealbreaker. Plus her syaing I could leave would be all she wrote.

I think her saying she has changed speaks volumes. It could be interprested many ways. At the very least these folks have convinced her that she can party if she wants and that you are not her dada and you are controlling. But at worst is means she is now a party girl who cheats. The thing is even the best option here is unacceptable.

I would tell her she quits this job or I am gone. She is free to keep the job if she wants and I would find someone more faithful.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> When I travel for business I often end up having dinner and sometimes a drink or two with the people from my company. We tend to all stay in the same hotel.
> 
> There have been times when it was just me and a guy I work with from Minneapolis. At that time we talked on the phone and emailed, im-ed for work all day long as we were developing a software/hardware product together. We have had dinner in the hotel restaurant together. It was not a date. It was two people who work together eating at the same table and talking. Of course our company paid each of our bills, separately.
> 
> ...


I have had two different women offer me their hotel keys in this scenario.
I have asked myself what I did to put out the wrong vibe.

We make sure there are at least three of us if at all possible.

Glad you have not seen what goes on but I can assure you that marriages that endure this type of travel are under attack quite often. Affairs are very common. 

Now the fact you say getting drunk is not tolerated speaks volumes. Many companies have a drinking and prtying culture. My company does. Many do. At a previous company I was in no alcohol was paid for by the company. However it is not uncommon for the group to go to a happy hour and for us to drop $600 on booze. Picked up by the company.

So I am going to say that your company culture is different from mine and mine is more similar to the OPs wifes company.

Last year I took my wife on a convention trip. We were invited to the wine country by a consulting company who does business with my company. So we went. Had a great time. We took a party bus and on the way back while my wife and I watched some folks definitely were pushing the boundaries of their marital vows no doubt. 

There were sales people to look after the men and there were guys to look after the ladies as well. Culture. Go figure.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

stuck in los angeles said:


> Not normally but the opportunity came up for her to go for 10 weeks last year and she took it.
> 
> *So this was her choice. Not something I would to to my wife.*
> 
> ...


*She is flat out cheating dude. *


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## NewM (Apr 11, 2012)

She is probably cheating or will cheat on you.Tell her that you will divorce her if she takes that new position where she will be traveling with him.


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## Love Song (Jan 16, 2012)

It sounds like she's trying to get your attention. Is that all that is going on? I don't know. It could be more or it could be nothing. At this point it's purely speculation. 

What is clear to me however is that your insecure in your marriage. Maybe you should try to find out what your wife NEEDS from you and work on giving that to her. Give her a reason to want you over those nights out. 

Until you find out more about what's going on that's all you can do. And it might help save your marriage.


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## Love Song (Jan 16, 2012)

And to be honest I think your wife was completely dedicated to you and your marriage until she felt like her efforts were not mutually met and so stopped fighting alone.


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## jfv (May 29, 2012)

Love Song said:


> And to be honest I think your wife was completely dedicated to you and your marriage until she felt like her efforts were not mutually met and so stopped fighting alone.


can you elaborate? I must have missed something in his post.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

No it is not there. There is no excuse for cheating. She decided like a big girl to not work on her marriage.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

stuck in los angeles said:


> She hung up on me, called me back later drunk and said *"I'm not going to change that for you and if you don't like it, you can leave" and "I'm not the same woman you married. I've changed."*


While her activities are highly suspicious and worthy of being investigated I would still not be convinced of an affair(s) until I read this.

And then there was this



> *She's insisting the problem is my lack of trust, and that nothing with her behaviour is wrong.*


 
Stick around the CWI section. It'll open your eyes.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Love Song said:


> It sounds like she's trying to get your attention. Is that all that is going on? I don't know. It could be more or it could be nothing. At this point it's purely speculation.


Funny, from where I sit it sounds like some bored wife is getting fvcked and hard and not by her poor ol' hubby. At this point, its time to stop speculating and start digging



> What is clear to me however is that your insecure in your marriage. Maybe you should try to find out what your wife NEEDS from you and work on giving that to her. Give her a reason to want you over those nights out.


Whats clearer is that he has reasons to be insecure and therefore should start trusting his instincts. Maybe he should stop trying to find out what his wife NEEDS because Joe's already taking care of those and start digging sh!t up and planning for all possible outcomes. She already has a reason to want him on those nights out, she's surrounded by men who want nothing better than to give it to her. But apparently thats not reason enough,



> Until you find out more about what's going on that's all you can do. And it might help save your marriage.


Well better find out what's going on and soon. But don't be her little b!tchboy. And before you plan on saving your marriage, OP, make sure she's not had an affair. Who the hell wants to save a marriage where the wife is cheating?


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## stuck in los angeles (Feb 15, 2013)

Wow, I was with the wife this weekend so was not able to check the thread until now. Sorry if it seems I'm ignoring the replies, I wasn't. 

*I do thank each and everyone who has posted replies, it has helped me to figure out where I stand.* :smthumbup:

Just to clarify the situation a little, the Vegas crew is a different group than the ones she's been traveling with for work.

There's so much more to the story here that I could write a book on it. More of the same strange behavior and statements. I started to keep a journal and update it but at some point I wondered what's the point? I already know the marriage will not endure with more of the same. 

Another curious statment she's made a couple times since her return is "I feel like I don't deserve you since I don't know how to love you the way you deserve to be loved". To me this indicates guilt that is eating at her.

When she was gone and all this stuff started to be revealed to begin with, I took the opportunity to start going to church and seek some help and spiritual support to get through this and hopefully save my marriage. She has been going to church with me and listening to the broadcast sermon from our pastor on the drive to work. I know for myself that it has helped tremendously. Can't say for her though and her actions have not changed enough to think so.

My wife and I argued this weekend about this whole situation. She's says I'm really digging for stuff and connecting the dots of nothing. I mentioned that I posted the situation on line and read some of the replies. She scoffed at them. At the same time that I'm trying to take a Godly route to save the marriage and hoping she's doing the same, she still thinks there is nothing wrong with her behavior and that she can go to church, listen to Biblical teaching, pray, and then hang out with this type of people and carry on like she has been doing. When I tried to make the case that that kind of lifestyle is incompatible with a Christian pursuit and walk, she accused me of being "Holier than thou". At some point after that I asked her what she wants if I leave. Basically she just wants to keep what she entered the marriage with and what she bought during the marriage and I keep what I came with and what I bought. Then she said I will never find another like her. I said, "God I hope not" and then "You like that?". Went to sleep and we spoke in the morning, made love and tried to put it behind us for a while. Honestly though, I'm still really hurting bad and feeling like I matter to her about as much as the dirt on the bottom of her shoe. I'm at the end of my rope with this situation though. If she wants to be free to fook others, I'm willing to end it and move on. 

I've thought of giving her the link so she can read this thread, but maybe that's not a good idea and one I may regret later. What do you all think? Should I let her read it all?


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

You could show her the link and let her read responses, but chances of it making any positive changes in her are slim to none. Why? Because she is firmly of the belief that the things she's doing are okay. People can rationalize anything to soothe their conscience. At the same time, they can turn it on you and accuse you of wrongdoing. If you're feeling badly you could easily start to believe it and blame yourself in some way for the way things are.



> "I feel like I don't deserve you since I don't know how to love you the way you deserve to be loved".


What would make a loving faithful wife say such a thing? I don't think a loving faithful wife WOULD say such a thing. And neither do you, or it wouldn't stick out so much.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

She either gets a job with a lot less travel or you are doomed.


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## stuck in los angeles (Feb 15, 2013)

Love Song said:


> And to be honest I think your wife was completely dedicated to you and your marriage until she felt like her efforts were not mutually met and so stopped fighting alone.


You actually are correct to some degree at least. The marriage did have some troubles before this started. I updated the original post to reflect that. I'm not blameless. But I've been trying to restore the marriage since all the crazy stuff came up last year. And since then I've been striving to do everything possible to let her know that I want the marriage restored and even better than before. It may be too late though. And to be honest, some of her flirty behavior and suggestive innuendos were apparent early in the marriage. I didn't pay too much attention back then as we were always together and she didn't have opportunity to do things that I've described. After she went out of town, then I started to realize I'd better pay attention to what she says and of coarse, what she does.


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## Snidley (Jul 5, 2011)

Stuck,

I'll bet if you ask your wife to quit her job she will do it, and therein lies your answer. It's never too late.


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## stuck in los angeles (Feb 15, 2013)

Snidley said:


> Stuck,
> 
> I'll bet if you ask your wife to quit her job she will do it, and therein lies your answer. It's never too late.


She won't and there is good reason... she has a great pension but has to be 100% vested which requires she work there for life basically.

I'm not sure what to do. And so far she's been very much unwilling to accept any blame for the problems. I'm going to schedule some MFT counseling this week but not sure how that will turn out. Like I said, I'm at the end of my rope though. She may be free to do whatever she wants and soon. I will take this experience with me and be a better spouse next time if there is one.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

stuck in los angeles said:


> She won't and there is good reason... she has a great pension but has to be 100%


 She does not have to quit. The travel was an option that she first declined and then took. It is not a requirement of her working there. Ask her to tell them that she no longer wants to travel like this anymore. She can do that while still keeping her job, so she has not excuse not to. If she says no to this request, tell her that you will be filing and then do it immediately.


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## stuck in los angeles (Feb 15, 2013)

TRy said:


> She does not have to quit. The travel was an option that she first declined and then took. It is not a requirement of her working there. Ask her to tell them that she no longer wants to travel like this anymore. She can do that while still keeping her job, so she has not excuse not to. If she says no to this request, tell her that you will be filing and then do it immediately.


At this point though, I don't know if I should just cut my losses and run. I don't presently feel the same about the marriage after being completely disrespected the way she's done. This weekend was the clincher. I think the only thing that may change her is my moving out and once I do that I'm not going to want to come back. So what's left to say or do?


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## Snidley (Jul 5, 2011)

Stuck, 

You're missing the point, she doesn't have to actually quit. She just needs to decide if her job is worth her husband. If she says "yes", then you know she values you more than her job. Best of luck to you brother.


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## stuck in los angeles (Feb 15, 2013)

coffee4me said:


> Stuck in LA, I feel for you. I know what it's like. At some point (no matter the reasons) you ask yourself, "Am I fighting for something or someone that is worth fighting for. AND am I the only one fighting?" It takes two, you can try all you want but if she is convinced that she is doing nothing wrong then you are fighting for nothing.
> Good Luck the end is never easy.


Exactly. I think the replies on this thread have helped me get to that conclusion. Ball is in her court as far as I'm concerned. I'm done trying to do my part. I don't expect she will try either.


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## nevergveup (Feb 18, 2013)

It seems that your wife dosen't get it.She travels alot with her work and is around many other males.She obviously enjoys flirting,
add a few drinks and things can happen.From what you have said,
she seems secretive with her phone.I my opinion, her work
enviroment adds to the possibility of infidelity.


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## brightlight (Feb 18, 2013)

STLA,

No, you are absolutely not over reacting. You have an absolute right to be angry with her and these other guys. They are sniffing around and she is leading them on. 

I am interested in the "I'll go if my husband can go" comment. Did she mean that? What would happen if you did go to Vegas. You would throw a real spanner in the works for sure. If you did say you were going you might meet Jim (unless of course he cried off) or any of the others who are taking an interest in your wife. See them face to face. That would send a big message to them. Unless they are real creeps they will back off. Your wife might even see it as a good thing, her man getting territorial.

A lot of it sounds like she is trying to tell you something. It could be "I really am not happy and I am thinking of leaving" but I think it's more like "I need you to show me more of a good time".


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

stuck in los angeles said:


> Wow, I was with the wife this weekend so was not able to check the thread until now. Sorry if it seems I'm ignoring the replies, I wasn't.
> 
> *I do thank each and everyone who has posted replies, it has helped me to figure out where I stand.* :smthumbup:
> 
> ...



Big mistake. You never should have told her about this. She will just be more careful


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## Love Song (Jan 16, 2012)

stuck in los angeles said:


> Exactly. I think the replies on this thread have helped me get to that conclusion. Ball is in her court as far as I'm concerned. I'm done trying to do my part. I don't expect she will try either.


I wonder if this attitude is the reason she decided to not put such a high priority on her marriage anymore? 

There's so much to this story that's missing. Sure it would be easy to jump to conclusions and say your wife is cheating but there's not enough here to say that she is. I see without a doubt a woman who is hurt, to have said the things she said to you. But to assume that her actions means she is without a doubt cheating? I don't see that. 

To answer your question are you over reacting? Yes I think you are. Your basically saying your done (or just about done) with your marriage because you THINK that your wife is cheating. That is over reacting.


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## NewM (Apr 11, 2012)

Love Song said:


> I wonder if this attitude is the reason she decided to not put such a high priority on her marriage anymore?
> 
> There's so much to this story that's missing. Sure it would be easy to jump to conclusions and say your wife is cheating but there's not enough here to say that she is. I see without a doubt a woman who is hurt, to have said the things she said to you. But to assume that her actions means she is without a doubt cheating? I don't see that.
> 
> To answer your question are you over reacting? Yes I think you are. Your basically saying your done (or just about done) with your marriage because you THINK that your wife is cheating. That is over reacting.


I don't think cheating should be this line where if you cross it = divorce.She is flirting with her boss and will now be going on trips with him that she chose to go when she didn't have to.That is disrespectful and if she doesn't change that kind of behavior he should divorce her.

I say bring her here and let her tell her side of the story.


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## Love Song (Jan 16, 2012)

NewM said:


> I say bring her here and let her tell her side of the story.


Yes. Maybe then well get the full story.


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## jfv (May 29, 2012)

Tell her you are going to file for divorce because you share her with other men and that is not what you signed up for. AND THEN ACTUALLY DO IT. You can always stop the divorce if she changes her tune and you still want her back. I wouldn't.


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## stuck in los angeles (Feb 15, 2013)

Love Song said:


> I wonder if this attitude is the reason she decided to not put such a high priority on her marriage anymore?
> 
> There's so much to this story that's missing. Sure it would be easy to jump to conclusions and say your wife is cheating but there's not enough here to say that she is. I see without a doubt a woman who is hurt, to have said the things she said to you. But to assume that her actions means she is without a doubt cheating? I don't see that.
> 
> To answer your question are you over reacting? Yes I think you are. Your basically saying your done (or just about done) with your marriage because you THINK that your wife is cheating. That is over reacting.


I came here to get advice from others who've been in this situation before as I have not. I do appreciate an objective oppinion but you seem to only read the parts that support your opinion and ignore the rest. As I said, there's lots more that I just didn't include.

For instance, when she came home from her first trip, she suddenly had a pass code on her iPhone. she never had one before the trip. I had to shoulder surf her pass code to get it. When she was in the shower, I looked at her call log, browser history and texts. All were deleted. Completely clean. She was supposed to go on travel again in November last year. She's also been secretive aobut her iPad too. Back in October she was on her iPad one night. I plopped down next to her and asked what she was looking at. She said she was looking at clothes for her upcoming travel. She showed me a couple of dresses that while they weren't revealing, they weren't work dresses either for the type of work environment she's in. From the last trip out, I know she typically wears jeans out where she's at because it's outdoors and in warehouses, etc. So I thought maybe these are for group outings at night, etc. I later picked up the iPad and looked at the browser history. What I found along with the dresses she showed me were sexy C0cktail dresses on Victoria's Secret, Urban Outfitters, etc. Later she started to erase the history on the iPad whenever she used it. One Monday she grabbed it on the way to work. She cannot take her iPad into the office so that makes no sense to me. When it came home of coarse the history was clean. What she didn't know is that there is a location on the iPad for Website Data that she had not cleaned. One site she went to was a combination steakhouse and Gentlemen's club with strippers.

She went out of town for work a week in December. Something in my head told me to search her suitcase before she left. I did and tucked away in a pocket was a few romantic cards and a big pack of Chlorets gum. She obviously wants to make sure she has fresh breath while there and I assumed the cards were also for whoever the gum is for. Also, she was leaving right before our anniversary and was gone for the anniversary. We spoke earlier in the week about going to dinner the night before her departure. She completely forgot. She also completely forgot an anniversary card too. I gave her one though. So is it possible those cards in the suitcase were for me? That's what she says. But if she puts so little thought into our anniversary, would she likely remember to pack an assortment of cards? Now on the positive side all those cards came home with her, and I think they're all there. After she came home we were at Kohl's shopping for clothes for my son. While there I said she should go look at the clothes for her. I asked her "don't you need new clothes for the job away?" She said no. So what was the explanation earlier about getting clothes for the job?

Then there's the story of her getting back on birth control pills. Before leaving the first time, she told me she was getting off the pill. I aksed her why and she replied "I don't need to on them because I won't be fooling around while there." I didn't even ask her about being on the pill to begin with but after this statement was puzzled why she felt the need to volunteer the info when I hadn't even asked. Then she came back to town for a week. She had made an appointment to get back on the pill before leaving again for 6 weeks. She would have been done with them before coming home to me. These pills only require 7 days to take effect. So when I called and asked her why she needed to get back on the pill when she will be done with them before she returns, she got REALLY angry and sent me a scathing email that it's none of my business when or if she's on the pill. 

The first time we made love when she got back, she didn't want to face me afterwards. She turned her head away from me while in my arms. She never does that, she always lays in my arms looking at me.

Oh, and I also noticed some things on the phone records. While out of town when Joe was out there too, many times near the end of the evening she would call me, then her son, then Joe. Often that was the last call of the day or maybe she would call me hours later. So what is that? I assume she's getting the call to me and her son out of the way so that she has free time without interruptions. I also noticed the last time she was out of town, upon return she called me to let me know she landed safely. But guess who she called right after that for a minute? Joe.

There's even more that I've filed away in my brain or taken notes of. There's just too many stories changed to suit the moment and too many coincidental wierd events for me to believe there's nothing there.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Too many red flags there you are right.


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## jfv (May 29, 2012)

You are sharing her with Joe. You know this in your gut. Do something about it.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

stuck in los angeles said:


> Another curious statment she's made a couple times since her return is "I feel like I don't deserve you since I don't know how to love you the way you deserve to be loved". To me this indicates guilt that is eating at her.


There is no doubt whatsoever about this. It is just as common as and means something very similar to ILYBINILWY. It's just another way of saying "I'm getting banged and I don't mean by you."


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

stuck in los angeles said:


> Then there's the story of her getting back on birth control pills. Before leaving the first time, she told me she was getting off the pill. I aksed her why and she replied *"I don't need to on them because I won't be fooling around while there."* I didn't even ask her about being on the pill to begin with but after this statement was puzzled why she felt the need to volunteer the info when I hadn't even asked. Then she came back to town for a week. She had made an appointment to get back on the pill before leaving again for 6 weeks. She would have been done with them before coming home to me. These pills only require 7 days to take effect. So when I called and asked her why she needed to get back on the pill when she will be done with them before she returns, she got REALLY angry and* sent me a scathing email that it's none of my business when or if she's on the pill. *
> 
> The first time we made love when she got back, she didn't want to face me afterwards. She turned her head away from me while in my arms. She never does that, she always lays in my arms looking at me.


Man, It's time to saw off your horns. That stuff is beyond blatant. You can save the PI charges by just filing right away.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

stuck in los angeles said:


> When she was gone and all this stuff started to be revealed to begin with, I took the opportunity to start going to church and seek some help and spiritual support to get through this and hopefully save my marriage. She has been going to church with me and listening to the broadcast sermon from our pastor on the drive to work. I know for myself that it has helped tremendously. Can't say for her though and her actions have not changed enough to think so.
> 
> My wife and I argued this weekend about this whole situation. She's says I'm really digging for stuff and connecting the dots of nothing. I mentioned that I posted the situation on line and read some of the replies. She scoffed at them.


Did she betray any "tells" when you read the "she's a cheater" passages?




stuck in los angeles said:


> At the same time that I'm trying to take a Godly route to save the marriage and hoping she's doing the same, she still thinks there is nothing wrong with her behavior and that she can go to church, listen to Biblical teaching, pray, and then hang out with this type of people and carry on like she has been doing. When I tried to make the case that that kind of lifestyle is incompatible with a Christian pursuit and walk, she accused me of being "Holier than thou".


I had this very discussion the other day at breakfast with a Lutheran pastor, and I think this is one of the differences between men and women. While there are plenty of male "wolves in sheep's clothing," as the Bible puts it, they are bogus and they are aware that they are cynically preying upon the flock. Many women have the capacity to square the circle and conclude that God is okay with adultery, or some other forbidden deed, on their part, because they are a special snowflake. The rationalization hamster doesn't fear God. This is true for women who would be considered "true believers." Of course, Lambda men have the same capacity.



stuck in los angeles said:


> At some point after that I asked her what she wants if I leave. Basically she just wants to keep what she entered the marriage with and what she bought during the marriage and I keep what I came with and what I bought.


Sounds like she's already been thinking about it if she had a ready answer.




stuck in los angeles said:


> Then she said I will never find another like her. I said, "God I hope not" and then "You like that?". Went to sleep and we spoke in the morning, made love and tried to put it behind us for a while.


Made love as in had sex? You need to get checked. If she went on the pill it was because she wasn't using rubbers. Did I mention WW's never use rubbers? they don't.



stuck in los angeles said:


> Honestly though, I'm still really hurting bad and feeling like I matter to her about as much as the dirt on the bottom of her shoe. I'm at the end of my rope with this situation though. If she wants to be free to fook others, I'm willing to end it and move on.


I'd say have plenty of evidence of adultery. If you need photos, go out to her next road trip site or get a PI out there to get you the pix. 



stuck in los angeles said:


> I've thought of giving her the link so she can read this thread, but maybe that's not a good idea and one I may regret later. What do you all think? Should I let her read it all?


That's up to you, but it will make it tough if you need advice somewhere else down the line and don't want her knowing your next move.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

It always dismays me when the BS starts defending why the WSs job is more important than the marriage. It tells me the priorities and their willingness to rationalize things. A type of enabling. I get that there can be some tought decisions made. 

Another party girl that has been tenured in her marriage. Entitlement. Let's have a cake eating party.


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