# Is this what marriage looks like??



## shambles (Feb 22, 2012)

I needed some feedback as I'm battling what is 'normal' and when is it OK to leave.

I have what one would call a picture perfect marriage. We are high school sweet-hearts, we've been dating since 16. We have been married for 4 years now (together for 12), started off as best friends and get along well with each other. He treats me like a drop of water in the desert. So where's the problem?

The problem is that for the last year I have constantly been consumed by thoughts of leaving. I thought it was a passing phase but it has actually stopped me from enjoying the now. One of my problems is that I am an over thinker and just keep flipping and turning a situation. I realize that I am probably suffering from 'the grass is greener...' syndrome, but then I argue on the other hand that despite knowing this, I still cannot appreciate what I have and in turn keep wasting time, his and mine, as he wants to start a family and to me it doesn't feel right...yet (?).

We spend time together, but need other company around us. We don't fight - we get along well, but it's not as if it's exciting. More like a well-oiled machine. We don't have discussions about things, when at home each retreats to their own part of the house and does their own thing. We never have sex. And I'm actually OK with it, but it's causing tension on his side (last time was 4 months ago). He wants to start a family, the idea of intercourse literally makes my stomach turn...

We went to marriage counselling and we didn't really have any breaking issues until it came to the sex thing. I guess all things considering the major problem is that it is stale. I've been reluctant to write about my problem because of the backlash of responses - that I'm ungrateful, that I'm taking things for granted. I have been trying to search high and low for the core of the problem. We've both attempted to vamp things up, but neither of our heart is in it. We'll go on a 'date' and end up going to the movies, not talk etc. What's the point.

He's content with it like this. My heart keeps searching for more.

My reluctance to have children is definitely brought on by waiting for 'something to happen' in life. I feel like I haven't done and seen what I want to, so cannot settle down. On that note - I consider myself to be a go getter. Given the circumstances, if I was alone, there would be nothing stopping me and I generally make things happen (I graduated university at 20, I have travelled extensively, I started my own company at 24 and it is growing in strength...).

And there comes the bite in the ass. Does this happen in every relationship? Is this what marriage is? Given my upbringing and what I was surrounded by, I am assuming so. And you're actually weak for not sticking it out, a sinner. If I left and did all the things I wanted to do - would they really make me happy?? What if I don't find someone who treats me as nice as he does? He doesn't hit you. He treats you well. He earns good money....on paper it all makes sense. Is enticement better than comfort?? Some people don't have a food on their plate and I'm looking to be 'fulfilled'.

Do people who are together so long REALLY have sex as regularly as they say? Is there something wrong with me? I was shocked to read otherwise....how do they not get bored? Please, pass on the secret. Would it be like this with someone else? 

I guess the closest analogy would be to compare it to living off of bread and water - - it does the job, it keeps you alive, it tastes OK...so why complain?! Or do I have a right to order something else??


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## accept (Dec 1, 2011)

Why dont you have sex. Why should it turn your stomach. Is it because of 'him' or it would be the same with anyone else. Why is it that you cant 'talk'.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

The question of why you don't have sex is important one to answer. Why not? Are you refusing sex? Or is he? Or has it just died?

This is not what a good marriage is like. You most likely feel the way you do because you live in a marriage where there is no connection between the two of you. You married him 4 years ago. Was it like this 4 years ago? Or is this a more recent thing? When did it start being like this.

To keep the passion in marriage, the two of you need to spend at least 15 hours a week doing date-like things. Just the two of you. 

Conversation is extremely important to a marriage. If the two of you cannot talk, cannot even think of things to say to each other then you get what you have now.

I read a quote the other day; "A woman needs a reason to have sex, a man needs a place to have it." The quote is simplistic but it makes an important point. You do not want to have sex because your relationship is all but dead. You have no reason to want it when there is on passion in the relationship.

There are two things that I can think of that might help you out... well there are a lot of things but I'll start with only two so as to not overwhelm. 

Do a google search for "conversation starters for couples" also for lovers and other terms you can think of. Get some good questions. Some serious, some funny. Then tell your husband you want to talk to him. Ask him one or two questions. After he answers a question, you answer it. Then go to the next question. I know it sounds a bit forced but one of the big problems is that people forget how to just converse... their brain shuts down when and they cannot think of anything to say. These conversation starters work pretty well. Do this once every day or two.

Go out on date nights weekly and not to the movie. Watch movies a home when you can cuddle. On date nights go armed with more questions to bring up. Get the conversation going.

The second thing is to get the books linked to in my signature block below about building a passionate marriage. Read them. Then tell your husband how unhappy you are and ask him to help rekindle the passion in your marriage. Tell him how bad it is... that you will need to leave the marriage for your mental health if he does not work on this with you. Ask him to read the books one at a time.. probably starting with "His Needs, Her Needs". My husband and I read the books together, taking turns reading them chapter by chapter. It lead to a lot of good conversation. We did the exercises together as well.

If you and he cannot or will not do what is necessary to put the passion back in your relationship then I see no reason for continuing your marriage. Your pain is real and you both need to work on it or it's over.


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## shambles (Feb 22, 2012)

I really don't know. As mentioned previous I'm a bit of an overthinker so clarity gets lost in all the thoughts. I'd like to say that it's because I've started to view him more as a brother than a husband. I do find him attractive and very handsome, but he doesn't arouse me (which I feel really guitly about so I sweep the issue under the rug). 
But then I argue the other side - having never been with anybody else, perhaps it would be like that in all my relationships once the novelty wears off. I have nothing to compare to (but I know I have a sex drive).
In regards to talking - we both feel awkward about the sex topic, mostly because we're out of practise and just approaching the subject brings about so much anxiety for me that I avoid it altogether. I would honestly prefer to avoid it and be without than experience the anxiety and 'address' the issue...because frankly, I think I'm the 'issue'.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Shambles,

My suggestions about converstation starters was not to talk about sex. There are lots of things to talk about. 

From the last post it does sound like you have a problem and are part of the problem. I gave you some very good, strong advice. But you seem to have just glossed right over it.

It's clear that you (and he) do not know how build and maintain a strong, passionateo marriage. Your last post makes it sound like you do not even want one. And yes any relationship you get into will end up like this until you learn how to make a marrige work. You are as responsible for where your marriage is as he is.. or maybe more so since you are the one who is unhappy, so you are the one who has to fix this.

If you are not interested in fixing your marriage then get a divorce so that the two of you can move on.


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## shambles (Feb 22, 2012)

My last reply was actually in response to 'accept's' post and we posted at the same time :scratchhead:


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

shambles said:


> I'd like to say that it's because I've started to view him more as a brother than a husband. I do find him attractive and very handsome, but he doesn't arouse me (which I feel really guitly about so I sweep the issue under the rug).


It's not meant to be this way. Get your husband to read THIS, pronto. The book is better-organized than the website, so I would recommend he buy that (or you buy it for him). Don't do anything rash. Give it time to kick in.


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## accept (Dec 1, 2011)

You say he is your first. Are you his first. Maybe you read too much and expect too much from sex. You have to realise that its not like its written about at all. Its all overdone. I am quite sure its all 'normal'. Why should it make your stomach turn. It sounds like you think youre eating some bad food. As though you want to be bored. I think you should have a bit of IC. I dont think he will want to talk to you much if you dont give him sex and you really have to start there. I suppose youre not really telling us all because you are scared of the backlash and there is plenty more to it.
As an entrepreneur who is on the go one has to admire you, does your husband.
A woman has to look up to a man do you. Treating nice isnt enough. 
I am almost sure this is the problem.


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## lostalso (Feb 21, 2012)

First let me say don't add kids to this situation, 
my good friend is in a similar situation has been married 12 yrs, he married a woman he admits he knew he was not in love with but he felt he was to the age he needed to settle down. 
This woman he married is a very passive woman who worships the ground he walks on, they now have four kids together. but the lack of love, even though there is no fighting, is apparent. They have a wonderful home and lots of money. but it just isn't filling the void of a loveless marriage on his side. He admits when the children are raised he will have nothing left at home. my point is sometimes when it's not there it's just not there, time can develop love but sometimes it's just not there


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## shambles (Feb 22, 2012)

Thank you all for your food for thought.

I guess the thing that is bothering me the most is that I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I left and there was an issue(s) that could be resolved. I suppose one can argue that every issue can be resolved, if you want it to.

And that's where I'm feeling the most guilt. All in all he really is a great man. He would make an excellent (above par) father, he is so generous and sweet...in a nut shell, a girl should be so lucky. But I'm tormented about what I'm feeling that something is missing. 

On the other hand, there have been some hits and misses. For Valentine's Day I got nothing. For my birthday he bought me a (really) expensive leather handbag...I'm a vegetarian (it wasn't out of malice though); last night for example - I made dinner for us so we can eat together after the gym and when I called to see where he was he was with his mates having a beer. The last business trip he had where he went overseas for 10days, he told me about it the day before. And the kicker is...we never argue over this stuff. It doesn't make me upset, nor does it make him upset....I've just become indifferent. Looking back, it could be because it used to make me upset and then I would feel guilty for 'over reacting' and doing a 'girly' thing, and so now I'm using indifference to cope. 

Can passion really be rekindled? Deep down that's what I'm really yearning for. And why at this stage don't I want it from him? I want for me to want to make things better with him...if that makes sense?? So I keep waiting for me to come around...but how long do I wait? Can people simply fall out of love or can every marriage be saved and I just have to hang in there because my motivation to make it work will come back?
I keep fantasising about some else - no one in particular, just a someone where we look forward to spend our free time with each other even after 20 years.

I know it is unfair to the both of us so be wasting our time but another major issue is that I live in a very conservative society in that the view is that every marriage can be salvaged and you take as long as you take to fix it. And I see soooo many people who are still married but live like roommates.

I guess if I had to sum it up - should I be content with having a great friend to live with and spend my life with, or should I work at absolving myself of this guilt of wanting more passion and general interest from someone? When I spoke to a close someone about this issue the reply I got was 'all marriages lead to this, you just get used to it and do things to keep yourself busy'. Is that true??

Please, honest answers - is passion in a long term relationship like a prince in shining armour, or can it exist??


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## PFTGuy (Aug 28, 2011)

shambles said:


> Thank you all for your food for thought.
> 
> I guess the thing that is bothering me the most is that I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I left and there was an issue(s) that could be resolved. I suppose one can argue that every issue can be resolved, if you want it to.
> 
> ...



Passion in a long term relationship certainly can exist, I think, because I've heard enough testimony from people who have enjoyed it. From this post, it seems clear to me that neither of you is working hard to achieve it together. Since this thread is mostly really about your conflicts about the problem, have you considered counseling just for yourself? What you're trying to get here is some clarity of perspective, but one-on-one and face-to-face would probably be more effective. And as religious people, we tend to feel very guilty about divorce, but I'm not sure that we should feel that way. If it is a mutually agreeable solution between two adults, and especially if no children are involved, then it might not be such a bad idea. Most of the Biblical problems with divorce (I believe) were because in a male-dominated Patriarchal society, women who were cast aside (and their children) could be very vulnerable. That's not always the case in our society in the U.S.


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## accept (Dec 1, 2011)

I wonder have you ever discussed it with him. I would be surprised if he hasnt tried to discuss it with you.
I can say though that you cant carry on like this. It will only get worse. He wants kids you dont, you must realise or better imagine it was the other way round would you be pleased.


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## shambles (Feb 22, 2012)

I've tried to touch on the topic of feeling empty and wanting different things - but I feel really bad. I told him about children - I don't oppose to the idea, just not yet. He's really patient and says he'll wait. But what if I don't come round? At this point I feel like I will one day, but I've been saying that for years. He never said it, but it really hurt him.
How honest can one be? Is open and complete honesty really the answer?
Fristly, it's hard for me to get my words in order, as you can tell from my rants. Think I'll write things down first and then summarize.
Secondly, some of the things I'm feeling could potentially really hurt his feelings and lead to a point of no return.

Should I just buck up and try and resolve this by myself..what ever the damn issue is? Clarity, reveal yourself!!


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## holiday82 (Apr 23, 2012)

Shambles,
How have things turned out for you???
I started to tear up a bit when I was reading your posts, because I haven't heard/read anyone else express almost exactly what I'm feeling...It's eerie. I wish I had some answers for you, but I'm just as torn, confused, guilty, etc. My husband is a great guy & I'm lucky to have him, but something is not there & I feel we're in separate worlds. Maybe he & I both have some intimacy issues? Maybe we're just not right for each other? Maybe it's just a slump? I don't know. 
I'm very curious how you've been since you posted this. I'm in the midst of such a similar dilemma. Best wishes to you & thanks so much for posting your thoughts. At least I feel that I'm not the only one going though this


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## Jeff/BC (Apr 1, 2012)

I guess my answer would be "Yes, this is exactly what pretty much every marriage which receives no attention looks like."

Whether or not you end up divorcing, I'd urge you to think very clearly about how it got to this spot. How did you two just drift apart and nobody even noticed. That pattern will make your next marriage if you have one look a lot like this one.

Over time, nobody stays exciting and vital and all those good things without effort to do so. When both partners check out, then the marriage turns into... well... this.


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## holiday82 (Apr 23, 2012)

Oh, I love what you said "Clarity, reveal yourself!!" LOL....But, seriously...Where is it? I even read that Eckart Tolle book, A New Earth, thinking that it would open me up to finding some clarity within myself...But, I'm still waiting...


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

A decent to great guy coupled with a woman who has lost sexual interest in him for no apparent reason and who feels she's been cheated out of the castle and prince the storybooks promised? Yep. That's what an awful lot of American marriages look like. If you enter marriage thinking it's supposed to be all excitement and fun and games, you're dead even before you get started. The successful marriage is the one that works, rarely, the most exciting. Convicted felons might make exciting bed partners but they make lousy husbands or fathers. Being shot at is exciting but I wouldn't recommend it as a way of life.


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## shambles (Feb 22, 2012)

In response to the message above - it was exactly those type of comments I was worried about. The quick-to-point-finger responses that really don't help and defeat the purpsose of seeking out help. Not to say I'm looking for a pat on the shoulder, but some constructive advice.

Holiday82 - I've been working really hard to stop thinking too much about things and live life. Essentially nothing has changed and we are the same as we were before but, I'm happier for the peace of mind which in turn led to less anxiety. And at least I'm not constantly consumed about thoughts of leaving.

I know this is not a solution and problems are bound to arise when we come to topics again such as children, but I figure if we are OK at the moment I'm not going to rock the boat. Sounds like a bit of a defeatist approach, but perhaps then I'll be of more sound mind and know how to handle the issues.

I don't know. Ignorance really is bliss.


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## holiday82 (Apr 23, 2012)

Thanks for responding. I'm in the same boat. There were weeks when I wasn't sleeping or eating well, because I was thinking about this. I felt like an emotional wreck. Now I'm just kind of passively letting things happen. I make some efforts to help the relationship, but not much. I figure the answer for what to do will just make itself clear to me, gradually. I don't want to force a decision, either way. I might be passively letting the relationship die...we'll see. I don't know if the "lacking" feeling is because of the relationship, or if it's within me and I'd feel it no matter what.... I can't figure it out!

My husband realizes what's going on and tells me to leave him if I'm unhappy and not prolong it, but he also does make some efforts to make things better. He says he doesn't want to split up, so it will be "my call" if we do. Neither of us have entirely given up....Hence, I'm in limbo.

And, yeah, the person who wrote that message above yours is way off base. That's not what's happening here, not even close.

Best to you Shambles.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

shambles said:


> In response to the message above - it was exactly those type of comments I was worried about. The quick-to-point-finger responses that really don't help and defeat the purpsose of seeking out help. Not to say I'm looking for a pat on the shoulder, but some constructive advice.
> 
> Holiday82 - I've been working really hard to stop thinking too much about things and live life. Essentially nothing has changed and we are the same as we were before but, I'm happier for the peace of mind which in turn led to less anxiety. And at least I'm not constantly consumed about thoughts of leaving.
> 
> ...


Shambles you really haven't answered any of the questions posed to you other than "I don't know", which is a total cop out. It is not normal for sex from your husband to turn your stomach. If you wanted sex from him, at least half of these problems would be fixed. Did something happen to you when you were younger?

Read some romance novels, watch some Cinemax. Something that might get you riled up "down there". Maybe you need a sex therapist rather than a marriage therapist?


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

And I am not trying to be harsh with you, I just think you need to get to the heart of the issue - get to the point or else lament over this for another 4 years. What is it about sex that you dont' like? Not saying you are crazy or anything, but you really need to think about that question.


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## casre (Apr 22, 2012)

Shambles. Some of the things you have written are verbatim what has been going on inside my confused head. I often feel like I'm over-thinking it too. And my husband is an absolutely wonderful person. But we have become distant and sex is a real problem with us too (though for a different reason). But the result is the same. I no longer want it from him. And I have the same anxieties about children and my husband is ready for them now too. But then, if I do leave him, maybe nobody else on this earth would really be better for me... I have no idea. I don't really have an advice because our situations are so similar. Except that I don't think the sitting in limbo idea is a good one. I've been doing that for years unsure whether these feelings would go away. And sometimes they do, but they always come back even stronger. I'm going to have a big talk with my husband next week and tell him everything that I've been thinking about. I know it's going to be horrible. I know it's going to hurt him and myself. But I can't keep it inside anymore. We'll see what happens... Please keep posting updates. It's so good not to feel alone in this quagmire, especially when one feels like they're the bad guy.


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## Kathrynthegreat (Apr 23, 2012)

Shambles, you and I are more or less in the same boat. Wonderful husband who was my high school sweetheart, but no passion or connection. We do have sex because I want him to be happy, but I prefer not to be touched, kissed caressed, etc. Of course I have the fact that I was raped as a teen to point to and say, "That's the reason," but I've been through a lot of counsel and therapy for it, and there are other women who feel like I do who have never been abused sexually. 

I love him, but I'm starting to think it's not fair to try to hold him.


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## holiday82 (Apr 23, 2012)

What I wonder is...If I really work at it and focus on trying to make things better, will the feelings & attraction come back? Or, once it's lost, is it lost for good? I don't want to just give up on my marriage, but, like you said Kathrynthegreat, it's not fair to my husband for me to be with him, but not physically or emotionally invested in the relationship.


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## Lostmyself (Mar 28, 2012)

I can relate to your situation. Should it be enough to be married to a man who financially takes care of you and doesn't beat you and who is generally a nice guy? It would be nice if that's all there was to it. People say, "it could be worse." Agreed. But that doesn't change the fact that you are unhappy. You read about divorce and it says not to leave if you can't support yourself. So you are just supposed to stay and be unhappy? 
People say if you truly love your spouse you can make it work, even when you don't have the same goals in life and nothing in common. I wonder, if love really enough though? I struggle with that. I love my husband, but wonder if friends would have been the better option. It hurts me to think about ending it and hurting him. 
How do you hurt someone you care for? I couldn't, not by leaving anyway. But I know I do hurt him everyday. Every argument about nothing and every time I make up a reason not to have sex.
I suffer silently and put on a good face for friends and family. What if it is a mistake? How could you deal with that? How do you break it to your spouse you are leaving? I wish someone really knew the answer. 
I understand about thinking about having sex turning your stomach. It is that way for me. Not because he disgusts me, but because I really don't feel an emotional connection with him. And when he says something sexual to me, it only make me upset which in turn upsets him. It's a horrible cycle I have tried to fix. "Spicing" things up doesn't work when there is no connection. Why does it seem that one spouse is always supposed to give in to the other to meet their needs and just ignore their own? Why is it selfish to want to be emotionally and sexually fulfilled in your relationship?


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## HisMrs83 (Aug 8, 2011)

I could very well be wrong. But from the outside, it appears that you may be a perfectionist. Unfortunately, there's not one thing/person/relationship in this world that is. When you leave a good thing for a better thing/better connection, sometimes you never find it, because you left it before it developed. Sounds like you just need to find out your inner troubles and spend sometime alone.


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## whatsup (May 7, 2012)

holiday82 said:


> Thanks for responding. I'm in the same boat. There were weeks when I wasn't sleeping or eating well, because I was thinking about this. I felt like an emotional wreck. Now I'm just kind of passively letting things happen. I make some efforts to help the relationship, but not much. I figure the answer for what to do will just make itself clear to me, gradually. I don't want to force a decision, either way. I might be passively letting the relationship die...we'll see. I don't know if the "lacking" feeling is because of the relationship, or if it's within me and I'd feel it no matter what.... I can't figure it out!
> 
> My husband realizes what's going on and tells me to leave him if I'm unhappy and not prolong it, but he also does make some efforts to make things better. He says he doesn't want to split up, so it will be "my call" if we do. Neither of us have entirely given up....Hence, I'm in limbo.
> 
> ...



i'm in almost the exact same situation (but male) and the roles are mixed a bit. i still haven't figured out if i really want to put the effort into my relationship or career and i know my wife is thinking the exact same thing. it's kind of like we have to chose but are scared to make the wrong choice. 

can't really offer much help but you have my sympathy. more sex might help things spice up a bit - we still have it occasionally (~4-5 times a week) and we actually feel the emotional bond for a couple hours afterwards again as weird as that is. usually when we get back from a long day of work or have too much time thinking we immediately regress into indifference towards each other till the next time in bed.


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## dontKnowMe (Jun 1, 2011)

You should leave but you should also identify your faults in the marriage. Do you have any idea how rejected your husband must feel? You clearly don't want him. Let him go and let him find someone who loves him and wants him (sexually and otherwise). 

Give up the thoughts that marriage is supposed to be work and that you should stick it out. WHY?! So that two people can lead a life of mediocrity? At least allow for the potential of happiness. By staying you'll take both of you down.

He'll initially hate you for it but will eventually realize you are right. You love him as a brother, not as a lover.


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