# Am I handling this well?



## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

I have conflicting thoughts and feelings and I'm doing the best I can with them in the moment, keeping the long-term and big picture in mind:

Yes, I "understand" his pov with the other night's tantrum, BUT it does NOT make it acceptable or ok with me.

That's where I'm having a tough time.

He needs to get this.

But I'm not mentioning it until counseling Thursday because:

-it'll be counterproductive 
-I can't afford to distract myself with the stress this week
-I need the presence of the counselor there to back me up
-it'll be counterproductive, both in the short-term and in the big picture.

Here is my worry and question:

Am I letting him "get away with" basically treating me like [email protected] NOT demanding we discuss it to my satisfaction RIGHT NOW? 

Here's the scene right now:
I'm prioritizing work/school. Immersing myself in it because I have a big deadline Friday.
He's being "a good husband"--he was sweet at church this morning, cooked lunch for us, brought home one of my favorite movies, cooked a nice dinner, cleaned the kitchen, cleaned the apartment yesterday, did laundry, offered to drive me where I needed to go...

I just cannot reciprocate with warmth, cheerfulness, and affection. Just can't.

I want to look forward. I don't want to drag us through any mud of "Don't DO what you DID the other day!!!"

But he needs to GET this.
He really has no idea the effect it has on us and the distance it puts between us.

We'll discuss what we need to discuss on Thursday.
Until then, I refuse to engage in anything that could lead us down a bad path.

How am I doing?


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

I obviously don't have experience with marriage counseling, so maybe that's why I don't get this "discussing over a yelling/losing temper".

I think my husband has a right to occasionally lose it, scream, curse (in no way does that entail him getting physical of course). He has a right to express his pent up emotions (same as I do). And I have a right to then and there tell him I am not willing to take it. There is nothing to discuss - I am not willing to take it, period. And I tell him that. I don't think "discussing it so that he would get it (and presumably never do it again)" is going to work. It's going to happen again. Screaming is what people do when they are pissed.

I already wrote to you before how I deal with his screaming. Now, here and there in our almost 10 year relationship I got him so wound up to a point where in an argument he called me a b*tch. Now as much as I am OK with screaming _to a certain degree_, calling me names is an absolute no-no for me. I immediately then and there retort by telling him "Wait a minute! Don't call me that. You know why I don't call you a SOB? Because I don't think your mother is a b*tch. Watch what you are saying." Those few occasions he did call me names, after I said it to him he calmed down.

That's all there is to it. I understand you want to make a point across to him, that this is unacceptable to you. If I were you I would tell him that in MC. Just _tell him_. What do you feel would "discussing it with him to your satisfaction" get you in the long run? Clearly I don't get this.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

creda, you're such a thoughtful, sweet woman. You know how the men are always telling the men to man up? I have to tell you that it might be time to woman up. It's as if you are allowing your husband to emotionally torture you. Don't accept it. It's not alright.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Youre both right.
No, I don't want or plan to "discuss" it at length, even at counseling.
Discussing it won't work.
And no, I don't plan to just "take it" all my life.
I do need to "woman up" or "man up" or whichever.
I'm just figuring out what that looks like.
It doesn't look like "discussions to my satisfaction."
it doesn't look like fighting.
But it doesn't look like rewarding my husband for a verbal tirade, by snuggling up and being sweet.
I guess it looks like what I'm doing: cautious with him, taking care of myself, watching for what happens next, and being conscious the whole time...
That's the best I can do, when i'm battling the part of me that wants him to take a long walk off a short pier.
Haha. Kidding. Kind of 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

And rs, you have a point.
A quick retort of: "hey. Watch it" may be effective."
thanks for that example 
but for the record:
I HAVE TOLD HIM.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

Told him what? "Watch it" ?

I don't think that's enough. In a confrontational situation it would be like him saying "yes", you saying "no", him saying "yes" again... You know, escalation.

I think in our case when I added that SOB comment it had this "shock" value to it. He basically kinda "froze" - picture him gaping for a few seconds, :rofl: 

I don't know how it is with you, but when my husband starts screaming, I automatically get calmer and calmer, almost to a point of being clinical, so it's easy for me to come up with something to say in such a way that he just snaps out of it.

The trick is to figure out how to say what you want to say in such a way that it doesn't escalate things and at the same time makes him _think_ (as opposed to him reacting emotionally). No, I don't have it all figured out. Sometimes I want to kill him. You wouldn't believe how we fight. It's almost like a court-trial-situation kind of thing.

E.g. I explain my emotional reaction.
Him: But this is not logical.
Me: But _by definition_ emotional _cannot _be logical!

**pretends to choke him to death in my head**

Hmmm.. I just thought of something. It seems technically HE trained ME in ways how to deal with him :rofl: Of course it wasn't intentional on his part. Had I not changed my approach towards him, we wouldn't have gotten anywhere (completely different cultures, backgrounds, he is 10 years older than me. Try to teach an old dog new tricks. Yeah, right )


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

no, what I mean is *he knows I don't like the yelling and screaming and careless words.*
aside from that, your response is helpful and I'm going to re-read because it sounds like us.
I also get calmer and calmer as he escalates.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

What about just leaving the room? And letting whatever it is slide?

I know I'm probably the last person to give advice knowing the issues in my marriage, but, in the past week I've decided to make a big change.

I have begun detaching emotionally from my husband because I've realized (through my counselor and all the great advice from TAM), that I am TOO close to the problem and cannot view it objectively enough to even make a rational decision.

So, while I love my husband dearly, I have begun to sort of distance myself from him in order to be able to not only carve out a life for myself, but to be able to view my situation more objectively and less emotionally so that I can make an informed decision as to what boundaries are being stomped on and whether I want to continue to make the relationship work or not. I've become so "attached" to him, it blinds me to what is really going on and doesn't allow me to make a rational decision about anything in my marriage.

Pick your fights - its up to him to learn to control his anger and outbursts, not you - you're his wife, not his mother.

So, when he is out of control, leave the room, get out of the situation, etc.

You mentioned that the calmer you get, the more he escalates - that means you're still in the situation - just leave. I tell my husband when he gets angry and its not appropriate to the situation at hand - "I'll be back when you are calmer," and I leave the room, go into another room, watch TV in another room and I've been known to get in my car and drive down the street and back.

Have you tried just disengaging and walking away? It doesn't matter who is right or wrong, just disengage, then he can't escalate with you because you're not there.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> What about just leaving the room? And letting whatever it is slide?
> 
> I know I'm probably the last person to give advice knowing the issues in my marriage, but, in the past week I've decided to make a big change.
> 
> ...


MWIL, yea Ive heard that this qualifies as "intolerance" of a behavior I don't like.

But a couple questions:

1. Can't my silence or walking away also translate to acceptance or indifference? Know what I mean?
2. How do I show intolerance by "walking away," if i'm in a car?
---maybe saying "whoa, timeout." and then just disengaging, like you say.
I just don't see how just sitting in silence does not equal "this is ok with me."

Disengaging is HARD for me. 
But if it works, I'll do my best.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COGypsy (Aug 12, 2010)

> But a couple questions:
> 
> 1. Can't my silence or walking away also translate to acceptance or indifference? Know what I mean?
> 2. How do I show intolerance by "walking away," if i'm in a car?
> ...


There's a quote that comes from the South that might make things a little clearer, I think they used it in Steel Magnolias, too if you've ever seen that--

"Don't wrestle with a pig, you both get dirty and the pig likes it."

When you dig in and meet the tantrum word for word, you're both wrestling in the mud and he's getting the response he wants. You know that. 

You take control by stating clearly, "I'll discuss this with you when you're calmer" and then removing yourself. Leave the room, leave the apartment, turn your back and look out the window, whatever. If you're in the car, just refuse to engage in further conversation, if you say anything, just stick to "I'll discuss then when you're calmer" and look out the window and block him out or put on your ipod or something like that. But any way you do it, you're done with the out of control conversation. 

Then you DO come back to it, if it even needs to be come back to. For example, if the rant is about visiting his mother, then when he's calmer you simply say, "so what are we going to do about visiting your mother?" On the other hand, if it's about plugging in the gadgets, well...point taken, try harder not to let them drain, it's a fact, gotta plug them in, probably not worth another discussion about whether or not they need to be plugged in when and by whom.

This is completely different from acceptance. Acceptance would be if you said you would sit there until he was done yelling--that would give him total permission to scream and yell while you've agreed to take it right until he's done. By disengaging and walking away while he's out of control, you're taking that permission away and choosing to only deal with the calm, rational adult. But the key is to walk/turn away from it and then to realize that the follow up should be the issue. I'm guessing he's pretty clear on the fact that you don't like to be yelled at, you don't want to be disrespected, etc. and while that's valid, that doesn't resolve whatever started that particular fight. If you start off with that, you'll be right back in the mud and you're not ever going to get the details of life taken care of or master the tools to getting those details taken care of.

Does that make more sense?


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Totally makes sense, CO, and I love that line. So many great ones in that movie.

I do have a feeling we're going to be good, we just keep getting STUCK in the mud--it's a fitting way to put it. 

Thanks for your help.

Truth is, not EVERYTHING needs to be discussed, not every topic needs to be "returned to." That ball is in my court--leaving things alone that aren't that important.

But there are other things he does need to put on HIS big boy briefs and be able to discuss...at a good time withot high emotions.


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## madimoff (Feb 17, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> (snip)
> 1. Can't my silence or walking away also translate to acceptance or indifference? Know what I mean?
> 2. How do I show intolerance by "walking away," if i'm in a car?
> ---maybe saying "whoa, timeout." and then just disengaging, like you say.
> ...





COGypsy said:


> (snip)
> 
> This is completely different from acceptance. Acceptance would be if you said you would sit there until he was done yelling--that would give him total permission to scream and yell while you've agreed to take it right until he's done. By disengaging and walking away while he's out of control, you're taking that permission away and choosing to only deal with the calm, rational adult. But the key is to walk/turn away from it and then to realize that the follow up should be the issue. I'm guessing he's pretty clear on the fact that you don't like to be yelled at, you don't want to be disrespected, etc. and while that's valid, that doesn't resolve whatever started that particular fight. If you start off with that, you'll be right back in the mud and you're not ever going to get the details of life taken care of or master the tools to getting those details taken care of.
> Does that make more sense?





credamdóchasgra said:


> (snip)
> Truth is, not EVERYTHING needs to be discussed, not every topic needs to be "returned to." That ball is in my court--leaving things alone that aren't that important.
> But there are other things he does need to put on HIS big boy briefs and be able to discuss...at a good time withot high emotions.


Some that really resonate with me here - I've always seen NOT reacting as somehow giving him the message I don't care how sh*tty he might have been, what cra**y names he may have yelled, it's ok with me and I'm going to be calm
(ok I know there's a flip side answer to that but that's my gut feeling on it)
Another way of saying - Disengaging is REALLY hard for me!

Interesting thought that staying to listen to his cra* is effectively accepting it, accepting that it's ok for him to be saying it, ok for me to be taking it - I'll take that one on board for sure

My oh actually sees any kind of answering back from me as disrespect (not always that simple, but it's an example of double standards for sure!)

Creda's last point, about not everything needing talking through, is my main bugbear; I don't like it if I don't get to make double nitpickingly sure he's understood my side (and I guess if I'm honest at the back of it I'm hoping to 'prove' my point or get him to agree or something, however unlikely that may be)

And - and this is the single most important factor in disagreements in our relationship - I was a child of a separated parents who only ever seemed to disagree in front of me and of course I never saw them make up - which oh's folks did - so I kind of associate disagreement with not loving each other, and have this bizarre part-belief that you just shouldn't fight the way we do because it's just not right - finding it hard to get the right words to express this but it's all down to the thread title, how you handle it and I too don't handle disagreement, nor understand the way the two people in a partnership might handle it, very well


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> no, what I mean is *he knows I don't like the yelling and screaming and careless words.*


Here is my understanding. Everybody _knows _screaming is ill-mannered, bad, unproductive, etc. etc. But when we are pissed, this is the last thing on our minds. We are just pissed.

When he screams, I let him know AT THAT TIME that this is something I don't accept - here I make my position clear to him about his screaming. You say that you don't say anything about screaming at the time it happens and later it makes you feel bad because you feel he may think this is acceptable to you.

Well, here it is. I make my stand clear _at the time_ and I also try in addition to say something _at the time _ that would calm him down.

The objective isn't to make him not scream at all at any time in the future, because that's not going to happen. We are pissed, so we scream.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> MWIL, yea Ive heard that this qualifies as "intolerance" of a behavior I don't like.
> 
> But a couple questions:
> 
> ...


Disengaging is extremely hard and I'm not always successful at it, but I do try and it does work.

My counselor has told me that this doesn't mean you tolerate the behavior, it means you will not be a "party" to it and become part of the behavior. It's like a cat and mouse, or a bait and switch - they WANT you to engage, keep it going, make their point, whatever their goal is.

If you cut this off at the knees (disengage), then eventually they realize that this behavior doesn't "work" on you. They will then stop the behavior and try to come up with behavior that will "engage" you in the situation (and hopefully that is acceptable behavior).

I'm not a Dr Phil fan, but he talks about this a lot on his show - its not tolerance, its disengaging which shows that you will not play the game, be a part of the behavior, etc. And when things don't work, what do people usually do - quit doing them!

It doesn't mean that he "wins." It means that you will not accept or be a part of the problem. So in a sense, you win.

Wouldn't hurt to try it.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Totally makes sense, CO, and I love that line. So many great ones in that movie.
> 
> I do have a feeling we're going to be good, we just keep getting STUCK in the mud--it's a fitting way to put it.
> 
> ...


But until he does put on HIS big boy pants, don't wallow in the mud with him (as COgypsy) put it. 

That is YOUR choice.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

reachingshore said:


> Here is my understanding. Everybody _knows _screaming is ill-mannered, bad, unproductive, etc. etc. But when we are pissed, this is the last thing on our minds. We are just pissed.
> 
> When he screams, I let him know AT THAT TIME that this is something I don't accept - here I make my position clear to him about his screaming. You say that you don't say anything about screaming at the time it happens and later it makes you feel bad because you feel he may think this is acceptable to you.
> 
> Well, here it is. I make my stand clear _at the time_ and I also try in addition to say something _at the time _ that would calm him down.


Saying anything "in the moment" is not great, because THAT moment is a particularly bad moment, in which he doesn't listen.
Nothing I say will calm him down. Only me shutting up will make him shut up and calm down. 

But truth is...what makes him yell more is if I try to keep discussing, or tell him why his yelling isn't ok.
----ummm, that would be "engaging."

What I haven't tried is saying "hey. If you're going to yell, we're done talking about this right now."
and then BE DONE with it, for real.
The challenge for me will be really letting it go at that point.
Hard because I'm mad at him for ruining a conversation that couldve been productive, I truly want to be heard and not silenced, and I don't think whatever he said or how he said it was ok.

Madimoff, my H and I have opposite parent-conflict backgrounds as yours:
his fought incessantly, it's all he saw, so he's so terrified of becoming the same but he can't help it.
Mine aren't perfect but didn't fight too much in front of us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Correction...

He'll listen to you "in the moment" if you say something hateful.

And, he likely won't forget it.


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## reachingshore (Jun 10, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Madimoff, my H and I have opposite parent-conflict backgrounds as yours:
> his fought incessantly, it's all he saw, so he's so terrified of becoming the same but he can't help it.
> Mine aren't perfect but didn't fight too much in front of us.


This is the part I can't relate to, to be honest (I read your first thread here before). 

I come from a similar family. My parents fought non stop. Mom is very aggressive and wants to discuss things. Dad on the other hand will just sit there, quiet, no eye contact. It used to piss mom off even more, so she raved and ranted even more, to a point where sometimes, rarely, my dad would lose it (yeah, it got physical then, and I would jump in the middle to make them stop). They fought for a week, then 3 months of silent days ensued, nothing got resolved ever. Nothing. Thus every time they fought my mom would bring up things from the past. 

All this had a huge impact on me and my 2 younger sisters (small apartment, no way we wouldn't have known what was going on to the last detail). I have to say that each one of us reacted differently to it, and each one of us came up with completely different conclusions from this "experience". The differences between us start from our individual choices when it comes to a bf/husband to the way we react in a conflict. My youngest sister for example openly told me that even if she was with someone like my husband they would literally kill each other :rofl:

When it comes to me, it's crucial for me to not repeat the same mistakes my parents made. Because of my dad - I don't believe in disengaging, things have to be talked over, period. Because of my mom - I will bite my tongue before I bring something up from a previous fight to the current one or allow a current "conversation" to sidetrack (the "eyes on target" thing); I strive not to lose my cool, but I understand that screaming can happen. Because of my dad - if my husband starts screaming I unconsciously put physical distance between us. My husband knows the reasons behind it. He would die before touching me and I know it too.

I think that if during a conflict I say something, e.g. to make him stop screaming and he doesn't, it's up to me to come up with some other "solution" next time (as opposed to doing the same thing over and over), until I find the right way to say it. The right way to say it would be the one that ensues I achieved my objective - made him calm down.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Like I said, my H *desperately* does not want to repeat his parents' pattern, which sounds like your parents: 
Mom yelling in Dad's face, Dad stonewalling.

But it happens. And I play a role, I know.

This dance is changing...gradually...


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