# Let the bashing begin...



## frustratedman

Like many before, I'm a long time dweller, first time poster. I guess I just want to share my story, vent and see if anyone has something to add that I might have overlooked. I'm confident that I'll be called a beta, a rugsweeper, etc., but I can handle the criticism.

Both my wife and I are 38, she's 4 months older. We've been married for 15.5 years. She's gorgeous. I'm in shape and I guess I'm ok looking (lol) but I have confidence issues because I went bald at a young age.

We started dating when I was a senior in high school and she was a freshman in college. After dating for a couple years, we had a falling out and broke up. Our paths crossed again after being apart and we fell madly in love again. It was like we tested the waters and realized what we had. Soon after we got back together, bam - she was pregnant. My mother is Catholic, my father isn't very religious. Our families, particularly my mother, strongly encouraged me/us to get married. I was for it and figured that if we had gotten back together after being apart, we were clearly meant for each other. I was just finishing my bachelor's, we were fairly young and in the hustle and bustle, I perhaps made the biggest mistake ever... I didn't have a big, romantic marriage proposal. We got married and had our first boy, who is now 15.

Things seemed good for the first 5 to 7 years. I did, like many husbands it seems, take my wife for granted at times and maybe I didn't focus on our marriage as I should have. I was playing in a band, working 40 hours a week and hanging with my guy friends regularly. I would say I would do an "extra curricular" activity 3 times every 2 weeks. She had similar freedom to do things she wanted to do as well but I was gone more than she was. We also had another boy about 4 years after our first son was born. He's now 11. Both kids are incredible!

She started a new job. About 2 years into the new job (2008), I recall her telling me that this single guy from work had been texting her to ask her about a single female co-worker he was interested in. If I would have only known then what I know now after reading this forum... At the time, I didn't think much of it and I told her I appreciate her being up front about it. I was trying to be confident and show that I trusted her.

A few signs occurred between 2008 and August of 2011, when the crap hit the fan (aka d-day). Sometimes it just felt like something was off. One time she was out for a rare girl's night out and I saw pics of her without her wedding ring on. She said she wanted to wear a "fun" ring that didn't fit when the wedding ring was on. I told her that this wasn't ok; she apologized and said she didn't realize that it would offend me so much. Also, she was losing weight and looking great. I just figured she wanted to get back to her weight before having kids. In this time, our sex life was good in my opinion (2 to 3 times a week).

It was around May of 2011 when she told me that a co-worker who she was training asked her how her husband proposed. This co-worker was going to propose to his fiance. She cried on the way home that day. At this time, it seemed like she was becoming distant. I apologized and basically told her that I felt we both knew we were meant to be together, it was sort of a given, etc. This was like a slap in the face type of wake up call...

I'm typing this on my phone so I will post this and add more shortly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention how she phrased it. "Why are we married? You didn't even propose to me."

Anyhow, this kind of sent me into a tailspin, downward spiral. I started losing confidence, getting depressed, looking for clues as to if there was someone else in her life that I wasn't aware of.

I basically told her that I was sorry for the past, if you don't want to be married to me, just let me know. She basically replied that she was a "big girl," and knew that already but she loved me, I was a good father, etc. Also, during a different conversation, I was talking about this sleazy guy at work who had a few affairs and actually had had sex with a few different ladies (some married) right at work. I sort of wanted her to know that I wasn't tolerant of that sort of behavior, it disgusts me, etc. She basically said "have I given you any indication that I've been unfaithful?" But she never came straight out and said those exact words I was hoping to hear.

More coming....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

So, around mid-summer of 2011, I really started digging. I checked out our cell account and I was a bit shaken. I saw this number that she would text. It would be like 5 texts back and fourth one day, then nothing for 3 days, then 90 in one day... Quite sporadic. I reverse searched the number and found out it was the guy from work that she had mentioned back in 2008! My mind was blown. I was sick to my stomach. But again, some times there would be no texts for a week then a few then nothing. It only went back 3 months.

Of course, the next thing I did was checked the phone itself. I found that his contact info/number was conveniently missing. Mind was just racing... So I then looked for texts, nothing. She obviously deleted them. I did find 4 draft texts that weren't sent:

1. Blank
2. Wtf
3. Sad
4. Sounds like someone needs to fu

Clearly, number 4 above concerned me. I tried to slice it and dice it every way I could. My wife can swear like a sailor at times, so it could have been something like "sounds like someone needs to f'ing grow up," or something like that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Vulcan2013

The proposal things sounds like she's rewriting marital history. It's something unfaithful spouses do to justify their behavior. Seriously, after 15 years?


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## frustratedman

So, instead of doing what a smart person would do and gather evidence, I bottled it up for a couple days, looked at her call history, which went back 12 months. There were about 6 calls, nothing too crazy. There was a concert in town that I had gotten tickets for months prior. I went but couldn't enjoy it. I came home and told her I had a headache. I also asked if there was anything she wanted to talk about or if there were any problems in our relationship she wanted to discuss. She replied no but she was worried about me because I wasn't acting normal (definitely true).

The next day I was at work when I realized you can see up to the minute usage. There was a ton of texts the day before (about 90). I just couldn't handle it.

I drove home and said "we need to talk." Keep in mind, I had done zero TAM homework at this point!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lenzi

frustratedman said:


> She basically said "have I given you any indication that I've been unfaithful?"


Wow, I never heard that one before. 

Your cheating wife is VERY clever.


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## frustratedman

Sorry this is so long and broken up like this. My laptop is screwed up right now...

So I take her into our bedroom and ask, "do you know who's number this is" and I rattled off the number, which is now forever etched into my brain until the day I die. She replies questioning if it's a couple different girls from work. I just laid there looking at the ceiling. She knew that I knew. She told me it's this guy from work. He's an alcoholic. I give him dating advice and kind of live vicariously through that fantasy because we don't go on many dates, etc. He's depressed, this has only been going on for 6 months or so. Blah blah blah.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

So, trying to make this long story short, she told him at work that she can no longer be his shoulder to cry on, that they can no longer talk about personal issues, etc. i guess you would call it a "no contact letter," to a degree. She clearly knows that she hurt me, nothing physical happened, she loves me, she wants to work on the marriage and we should start going to a marriage counselor right away.

We went to around 6 sessions. In hindsight, we should have gone to a different counselor. I was so stupid! This counselor had the "don't play old tapes" approach. This was so convenient for my wife!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

I, not knowing any better, agreed with the counselor because "she's an expert," you know? While we were going for counseling, I tried digging up more info... Looking at bank/credit card info. I didn't find any "smoking gun" evidence. In my heart , secretly, I just found and still find it hard to believe nothing physical happened.

Something I forgot to mention. I've known this girl since I was 15. Back in the good old days her and her group of girlfriends hung out with my group of guy friends. So my good guy friends know my wife well, in a plutonic way only. I talked to two of my best friends about the issue in confidence. They both unconditionally said they understand my concern, but they both 100% think she would never do that to me. She truly is just that nice of a person and her boundaries weren't well established. She is sort of the "care taker" type of person...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

Due to the job market and per the advice of the "expert," I didn't force her to quit her job. She still works there to this day. The POSOM is either married or engaged (not like that matters).

I've never contacted him.

Going back in time and remembering other points, about a year after d-day, I quietly still waned to investigate the past. I put a free key logger on the pc and obtained her user name and password for both her email and fb account. In her email I saw her google search history. In 2008 she looked up "emotional affair versus friendship." Also, there was a time when she looked up a restaurant close to POSOM's b-day (july 2010) when I was out of town camping with my boys. I haven't asked her about that and frankly she could have easily been meeting two of her girlfriends in the town in question. Her cell location records do confirm that she didn't stay in that town and my mother in law was living with us at that time so there's no way she brought him to our house. 

But, when I checked her fb in August 2011, I did find a deleted message to POSOM from March of 2012 (6 months after d-day). The message was basically saying she was angry with him because he had stated that she wasn't helping him (she plays a support role). This really pi$$ed me off because this was a violation of "no personal contact." She said she was sorry but clearly the message was angry in tone and she didn't want to tell me because it would only add stress to an already stressful situation. I told her this was not acceptable. She understood, etc. Here's where you guys rip me apart...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cubby

I can relate to your frustration, since I still have a nagging thought that my wife might have physically cheated 3 1/2 years ago. It's hard to put the pieces together now. You've got some reasons to be concerned, but I don't know how you're going to get the truth.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thatbpguy

frustratedman said:


> In my heart , secretly, I just found and still find it hard to believe nothing physical happened.


You need to have a heart to heart with her again and tell her to confess.


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## Jambri

Sorry, I just don't see the smoking gun here....:scratchhead:


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## frustratedman

Bottom line... Basically, I feel like we rug swept issues. I feel like she has done much to prove she loves me. I didn't force her to quit her job. I feel like I'm screwed either way because I sort of agreed to put the whole thing past me when we were in counseling. If I press the issue she will again say that nothing physical happened. I guess that's the main problem! I feel like there is NO WAY an emotional affair could last 3 years without going physical!! If I find out it did, I would need to get out of this marriage. She insists nothing physical happened. Upon conducting my research, Ive never found smoking gun proof. Some days are good. Then I remember the past and I tell myself just to say screw it. Then I think about my kids... Uuuggghhh! This situation is just so frustrating!!!

Sorry for the crazy discombobulated post everyone!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lenzi

You have to accept that there is a reasonable probability that she has sex with the guy, but in fact, you are never, ever going to know for sure.


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## frustratedman

Vulcan2013 said:


> The proposal things sounds like she's rewriting marital history. It's something unfaithful spouses do to justify their behavior. Seriously, after 15 years?


It's like the questioned triggered something in her head!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

lenzi said:


> Wow, I never heard that one before.
> 
> Your cheating wife is VERY clever.


She is clever, if she's a cheater it's yet to be determined!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

Cubby said:


> I can relate to your frustration, since I still have a nagging thought that my wife might have physically cheated 3 1/2 years ago. It's hard to put the pieces together now. You've got some reasons to be concerned, but I don't know how you're going to get the truth.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wow Cubby, it's good to know I'm not the only one in this boat. I'll tell you what. It just sucks knowing that my wife had this secret relationship for so long. I just keep playing the movies over and over. Hot married co-worker develops emotional bond... It's like an invitation to take it to the next level!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ThePheonix

Frusty, I doesn't look to me like you have a hell of a lot of evidence. Every time a woman talks to a man doesn't, in and of itself, mean they're getting it on.


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## frustratedman

lenzi said:


> You have to accept that there is a reasonable probability that she has sex with the guy, but in fact, you are never, ever going to know for sure.


I certainly hope you meant "had" sex! Now here comes the comments about lie detector test... 

I just don't think that it's going to go well if I demand that.

It's basically a big gamble. If I bring out certain questions/demands she might just want to call it quits. But then again, if I'm not ever going to heal and she's not willing to "fight for me," then is it really worth it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lenzi

frustratedman said:


> I certainly hope you meant "had" sex! Now here comes the comments about lie detector test...
> 
> I just don't think that it's going to go well if I demand that.
> 
> It's basically a big gamble. If I bring out certain questions/demands she might just want to call it quits. But then again, if I'm not ever going to heal and she's not willing to "fight for me," then is it really worth it?


Yes I meant "had" not "has".

Yes, you might need to go the "all or nothing" route and insist on a poly.

But realize the reason to insist on a poly is to coerce her to give you the truth because she fears the poly, not because the poly will actually give useful information. Polygraphs are not a valid means of determining truth, they are only useful as a manipulative tool, for example, getting the confession in the parking lot prior to the test.


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## frustratedman

ThePheonix said:


> Frusty, I doesn't look to me like you have a hell of a lot of evidence. Every time a woman talks to a man doesn't, in and of itself, mean they're getting it on.


Is 100 texts to a "friend" normal? Is it normal to clearly hide information about a "secret friend" for 3+ years normal? I mean she cried when I confronted her so she knew that what she was doing was wrong. I hear what you're saying though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

In trying to recall/type this all out, I forgot to mention that in counseling I actually stated/asked if the emotional affair had gone physical. She took about 20 seconds to answer and she was choking up. It was like it was different since there was a 3rd party present and she needed to think about the answer...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BURNT KEP

frustratedman said:


> Is 100 texts to a "friend" normal? Is it normal to clearly hide information about a "secret friend" for 3+ years normal? I mean she cried when I confronted her so she knew that what she was doing was wrong. I hear what you're saying though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have to agree if she is deleting the texts and there is that many of them it's a very good sign that at the very least it is an inappropriate relationship. My WW did this with her ap.


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## honcho

frustratedman said:


> I certainly hope you meant "had" sex! Now here comes the comments about lie detector test...
> 
> I just don't think that it's going to go well if I demand that.
> 
> It's basically a big gamble. If I bring out certain questions/demands she might just want to call it quits. But then again, if I'm not ever going to heal and she's not willing to "fight for me," then is it really worth it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So after all the posts, you believe there was more to the relationship than what she is telling you. You pretty much understand she isn't telling you the full story. 

She has no incentive to tell you the truth now because you will file, if you push her she will file you think so your afraid to do it. She has the upper hand every way you have tried to play it. 

Don't kid yourself at this point that it wasn't a PA. After the amount of time they were in contact and still in contact it did happen.


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## frustratedman

honcho said:


> So after all the posts, you believe there was more to the relationship than what she is telling you. You pretty much understand she isn't telling you the full story.
> 
> She has no incentive to tell you the truth now because you will file, if you push her she will file you think so your afraid to do it. She has the upper hand every way you have tried to play it.
> 
> Don't kid yourself at this point that it wasn't a PA. After the amount of time they were in contact and still in contact it did happen.


A couple times now, I've ordered old cell phone bills. They give the number called and the location. I just ordered one from July of 2009 when I was out of town. I find myself thinking back on everything that happened and trying to piece the puzzle together. That bill should be in my mailbox by this Thursday. I just want to leave no stone unturned. There is a good chance you're right. It's almost like if it did happen, she has a great reputation for being a great, kind, caring person and a "good girl." Sometimes I wonder if she would simply take it to her grave if it did happen... You know what I mean?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski

What kind of phone does your wife use?


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## frustratedman

GusPolinski said:


> What kind of phone does your wife use?


Well that's another problem. At the time of d-day, we were using junk non smart phones. Now, iPhone 5c's. I'm not really worried about the "now" part of the equation. She does't lock or hide her phone from me. The only possible concern is that the POSOM might have an iPhone as well and those don't show up on the bill or whatever. I'm pretty sure she isn't dumb enough to communicate with him via any other electronic method other than company email, which I obviously don't have access to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski

Here you go...



GusPolinski said:


> Wondershare Dr. Fone
> 
> The above link is for the Mac version of Wondershare's Dr. Fone app. There is a Windows version available as well.
> 
> You can use the app in one of three ways...
> 
> 1. Start the app on your Mac or PC and connect the iPhone in order to export texts (SMS/iMessage, and even some 3rd party apps), pics, recent phone calls, voicemails, contacts, etc directly from the phone.
> 
> 2. Start the app and use it to export the same data from an iTunes backup of the phone.
> 
> 3. Start the app and log into iCloud using the Apple iTunes user ID (this will be an e-mail address) and password that your wife uses w/ her phone. If she has iCloud backups enabled on her phone, you'll be able to use the app to download several of the most recent backups for her phone, and then export the data mentioned above from them.
> 
> The app will allow you to export any of the above data that hasn't been deleted, _as well as *at least some of* what has been recently deleted_. If you don't find anything conclusive on the first pass, you can always begin exporting once or twice a day.
> 
> Make sure that you save and back up your exports! Use a USB memory stick or external hard drive (something that you can hide easily) to store them and, once you feel that you have enough evidence, consider leaving it in a safe deposit box. Additionally, store everything offsite in at least a couple of different "Cloud" locations (Carbonite, Dropbox, Google Drive, SugarSync, etc). When doing this, make sure that you're simply uploading the data instead of syncing it from your local Mac or PC; if you're simply syncing, and your wife finds and deletes the data locally, you'll lose your Cloud-based backups.


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## aug

This uncertainty will not go away. Doesnt matter what you said to your wife in counseling - why does she get to play and not disclose?

Either bring it up and deal with it now, or live with the anguish of uncertainty. I think it's better to know now so that you (and her?) can actually move forward. Otherwise, you're stuck in this mess.

Push her hard. Be prepared to move on without her. When you feel you can, that's when you'll feel the power/control shift to you.


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## frustratedman

GusPolinski said:


> Here you go...


Thanks Gus. Only problem I could see is that it seems like everything you do on apple sends a confirmation email and guess who's email is in my family's itunes account?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

aug said:


> This uncertainty will not go away. Doesnt matter what you said to your wife in counseling - why does she get to play and not disclose?
> 
> Either bring it up and deal with it now, or live with the anguish of uncertainty. I think it's better to know now so that you (and her?) can actually move forward. Otherwise, you're stuck in this mess.
> 
> Push her hard. Be prepared to move on without her. When you feel you can, that's when you'll feel the power/control shift to you.


I appreciate the response and encouragement! If we do go our separate ways, it will be tough on the kids and both of us financially. You're kind of right though. I am, at times, miserable. Then we have great days too. She's told me a couple times that she knows how much she hurt me and that she thinks about it every day. Maybe I will rake a multi pronged approach, do whatever further research can be done and explain that I'm struggling to get this out of my brain (knowing that this jerk still sees her every say) and that she really needs to look for a new job. I don't know!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski

frustratedman said:


> Thanks Gus. Only problem I could see is that it seems like everything you do on apple sends a confirmation email and guess who's email is in my family's itunes account?


WDF doesn't do anything to trigger any notifications or e-mails.

Question, though... is "Find My iPhone" enabled on your wife's phone?

Does she use iMessage?

What about iCloud backups?

How many total devices are configured to use the Apple iTunes account that is use on her phone?


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## Mostlycontent

honcho said:


> So after all the posts, you believe there was more to the relationship than what she is telling you. You pretty much understand she isn't telling you the full story.
> 
> She has no incentive to tell you the truth now because you will file, if you push her she will file you think so your afraid to do it. She has the upper hand every way you have tried to play it.
> 
> Don't kid yourself at this point that it wasn't a PA. After the amount of time they were in contact and still in contact it did happen.


To me, this is the most difficult part. If you don't make it safe some how for her to tell you the truth, then she never will and that is the conundrum.

If she believes you will divorce her, then obviously she will never tell unless you present her with so much evidence there's no way out. Clearly you do not have remotely close to that now.

Her comment asking you if she's ever given you any reason to believe she's done anything wrong, or words to that effect, is interesting because she's basically challenging you there to divulge what you have on her.

It's an arrogant statement but one that puts you in your place if you have insufficient evidence, which she was counting on. I would say that response was well thought out in advance. 

I'm not sure that even if you made it safe for her to confess, that she'd ever tell you the truth. You don't have to mean it but somehow you'd have to convince her that you will stay in the marriage and work things out with her. 

If she really believes that, then and only then, might she tell you the truth but even that isn't a certainty. In the absence of that, keep digging and hope you find something or better yet, hope you find something that convinces you that nothing physical ever happened.


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## frustratedman

I've also thought about exposing his true nature to his wife/fiance. Every man knows that texting a married woman 100 times per day is simply not right. Probably too late for that. It's just a never ending roller coaster ride dammit!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

Mostlycontent said:


> To me, this is the most difficult part. If you don't make it safe some how for her to tell you the truth, then she never will and that is the conundrum.
> 
> If she believes you will divorce her, then obviously she will never tell unless you present her with so much evidence there's no way out. Clearly you do not have remotely close to that now.
> 
> Her comment asking you if she's ever given you any reason to believe she's done anything wrong, or words to that effect, is interesting because she's basically challenging you there to divulge what you have on her.
> 
> It's an arrogant statement but one that puts you in your place if you have insufficient evidence, which she was counting on. I would say that response was well thought out in advance.
> 
> I'm not sure that even if you made it safe for her to confess, that she'd ever tell you the truth. You don't have to mean it but somehow you'd have to convince her that you will stay in the marriage and work things out with her.
> 
> If she really believes that, then and only then, might she tell you the truth but even that isn't a certainty. In the absence of that, keep digging and hope you find something or better yet, hope you find something that convinces you that nothing physical ever happened.


Keep in mind, this was said 3 months before d-day! It was like she was kind of avoiding the question. In hindsight it's like "how dare you say that to me when you were, in fact, hiding a deep dark secret?"

This whole situation has turned me into a P.I., which is something I never was before and something I never wanted to be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mostlycontent

frustratedman said:


> I appreciate the response and encouragement! If we do go our separate ways, it will be tough on the kids and both of us financially. You're kind of right though. I am, at times, miserable. Then we have great days too. She's told me a couple times that she knows how much she hurt me and that she thinks about it every day. Maybe I will rake a multi pronged approach, do whatever further research can be done and explain that I'm struggling to get this out of my brain (knowing that this jerk still sees her every say) and that she really needs to look for a new job. I don't know!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



This comment would concern me. You obviously don't know what happened for sure but her response can give you clues. If she was really just trying to advise and support this guy, she likely may have over stepped some boundaries, but her comment makes me believe that more happened than just that. Why else would you be so apologetic?

What she has described to you or your counselor doesn't sound like a full blown EA but rather her getting too close to someone in working through their problems. Don't get me wrong, it is inappropriate but it doesn't seem like the normal EA stuff you see here. 

Her continued apologies seem to suggest that it was perhaps a full blown EA and maybe a PA as well. I don't know, but it does seem that she is more contrite than her explanation to you and the counselor would seem to warrant. I can only surmise that she believes you think it was more than what she's told you and she's responding accordingly.

I agree with some others though in that you need to confront her again when you feel ready and strong enough because you need to be ready to walk away. she'll likely sense that and know that you mean business. You might then get the truth. who knows.


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## frustratedman

It's like I have a secret life of deep dark spying now and I damn near need to keep my phone locked! Just a sad situation. However, I've read posts on this forum that make my situation look very mild.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Calibre1212

My husband was in a 6 year secret friendship. He first met her a few weeks before he left his job at that company. To this day, he denies that it was a PA, but then, he even denies it was an EA (LOL!). I was left with a clever pair to deal with. He admits that she offered him sex but he refused it (Lol!). 

Do I have hard evidence...No. It is actually evidence that the phone bills showed him juggling his time between her and me and alas, even another one. The thing with the phone bills after studying them, is that when he was with me, he wasn't, of course, calling/texting me, so what are the odds that when he was with her, he wasn't calling/txting her? So when he was with A, B and C got txted/called...See the pattern? 

But interestingly, she said he betrayed her (the narrow-minded one believed she was the betrayed one). She told him that I am crazy to believe they were having an affair (knowing fully well that she had told him she was naked and her legs were spread under the sheets with one dangling off the bed). On my first contact attempt with her, she said "...I don't know why I am telling you this, but _____ and I have been friends for many, many years and if you try to contact me again I will sue you for harassment". Here it is, a girl who can't even add up the fact that he and I were married for 8 years before the "years and years" of her friendship began with him. But yet she was giving him marital advice having never been married and being 10 years younger than me....Here's the punchline...I am a counselor! Not to mention, she sent him a text he deleted and did not disclose this to me during the initial stages of our false reconciliation. 

Was it a PA? Well, yep, according to my gut. I had to sort through all of this by myself. This is the crucial question, "Does this person have a conscience for me?" Worse, does this person have a conscience? To objectively answer these questions is key. You see, I had to admit that during those 6 years, we rarely had sex. So, where was he getting it? Yes, conveniently she was in the picture all of that time. It is absolutely cruel for a person to force another person to seek the truth. The day came when I was able to respect myself enough to say I own my gut feelings, they are no longer subject to his gaslighting. 

It took me two years to review the previous 15 years and I ended up telling him my conclusion about his 6 year (or more) secret friendship: "Quite frankly my dear, I no longer give a f." You and she may now kiss my azz. I left him. He told me that he has been crying every night for the past 6 months since I left. My response: "Such is the life, I was crying for 17 years, welcome to the jungle baby." He also told me that the OW had such a bad character that she could never be his friend (It took him 6 years of mine and my children's lives for him to find that out). My response: "Then, I am glad you understand that that is exactly the way I feel about you." 

I did the spying things too, no solid evidence found, OW is a web developer anyway. We all do get to the point where circumstantial evidence is enough. Where we acknowledge that our gut feelings never betray us and that self-preservation is the priority.


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## frustratedman

Mostlycontent said:


> This comment would concern me. You obviously don't know what happened for sure but her response can give you clues. If she was really just trying to advise and support this guy, she likely may have over stepped some boundaries, but her comment makes me believe that more happened than just that. Why else would you be so apologetic?
> 
> What she has described to you or your counselor doesn't sound like a full blown EA but rather her getting too close to someone in working through their problems. Don't get me wrong, it is inappropriate but it doesn't seem like the normal EA stuff you see here.
> 
> Her continued apologies seem to suggest that it was perhaps a full blown EA and maybe a PA as well. I don't know, but it does seem that she is more contrite than her explanation to you and the counselor would seem to warrant. I can only surmise that she believes you think it was more than what she's told you and she's responding accordingly.
> 
> I agree with some others though in that you need to confront her again when you feel ready and strong enough because you need to be ready to walk away. she'll likely sense that and know that you mean business. You might then get the truth. who knows.


Thanks mostlycontent, for your insight. Just to paint a better picture she's only said this two to three times in 3 years. It comes up when she thinks I seem down or depressed. The depression is, in my opinion, largely due to my pseudo PTSD. By the way, I'm not trying to minimize soldiers or others with "true" PTSD. But it kind of feels like I get it at times. I just obsess about it. By the way, after marriage counseling, I went to IC. This counselor was kind of trippy, talking about "inner self" and dream interpretations. When I described the whole EA/possible PA, the counselor was like "everyone makes mistakes, do you love her and want to move forward," and crap like that. Basically telling me to turn a blind eye and move forward. I just don't understand why every counselor seems to just want to brainwash you to make everything magically go away...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## X-B

Just my opinion but it sounds like may have had an emotional affair but kept it at arms length. it sounds like you have no evidence to prove or disapprove it. It is a tough can either way. If it was me I would not throw my marriage away over it. What was that saying, trust but verify.


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## helolover

I think you owe it to yourself to find out the extent of what went on or is going on. I didn't at first and I was trickle truthed. I still don't know the full extent. I hoped and wanted to believe that my X's EA didn't go physical, but it did. I found this out about a year later after many denials, excuses and lies. 

We are divorced now. I have too much self respect to continue on in a half baked clown show of false R, lies, gaslighting and mistrust. R takes years, and the trust is never really rebuilt. 

Your wife will most likely go to an extreme length to conceal the extent of her involvement with this OM. You already have enough evidence that she had an inappropriate relationship with this guy and lied about it. That's the crux of the issue. Yes, your marriage proposal wasn't disney magic and you're a flawed person (like the rest of us), but these are not good enough reasons for her to step out on you. She owns that. 

If you contact the OM, you may not get the full truth, but it is possible he can shed some light on it. Maybe you can indicate you know more than he thinks. You know his number. 

The key to your salvation in this is your self improvement. You will find this situation painful and very transforming. If you focus on transforming and improving yourself through this, you will come out the other side better - regardless of your marriage outcome.

HL


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## frustratedman

Calibre1212 said:


> My husband was in a 6 year secret friendship. He first met her a few weeks before he left his job at that company. To this day, he denies that it was a PA, but then, he even denies it was an EA (LOL!). I was left with a clever pair to deal with. He admits that she offered him sex but he refused it (Lol!).
> 
> Do I have hard evidence...No. It is actually evidence that the phone bills showed him juggling his time between her and me and alas, even another one. The thing with the phone bills after studying them, is that when he was with me, he wasn't, of course, calling/texting me, so what are the odds that when he was with her, he wasn't calling/txting her? So when he was with A, B and C got txted/called...See the pattern?
> 
> But interestingly, she said he betrayed her (the narrow-minded one believed she was the betrayed one). She told him that I am crazy to believe they were having an affair (knowing fully well that she had told him she was naked and her legs were spread under the sheets with one dangling off the bed). On my first contact attempt with her, she said "...I don't know why I am telling you this, but _____ and I have been friends for many, many years and if you try to contact me again I will sue you for harassment". Here it is, a girl who can't even add up the fact that he and I were married for 6 years before the "years and years" of her friendship began with him. But yet she was giving him marital advice having never been married and being 10 years younger than me....Here's the punchline...I am a therapist! Not to mention, she sent him a text he deleted and did not disclose this to me during the initial stages of our false reconciliation.
> 
> Was it a PA? Well, yep, according to my gut. I had to sort through all of this by myself. This is the crucial question, "Does this person have a conscience for me?" Worse, does this person have a conscience? To objectively answer these questions is key. You see, I had to admit that during those 6 years, we rarely had sex. So, where was he getting it? Yes, conveniently she was in the picture all of that time. It is absolutely cruel for a person to force another person to seek the truth. The day came when I was able to respect myself enough to say I own my gut feelings, they are no longer subject to his gaslighting.
> 
> It took me two years to review the previous 15 years and I ended up telling him my conclusion about his 6 year (or more) secret friendship: "Quite frankly my dear, I no longer give a f." You and she may now kiss my azz. I left him. He told me that he has been crying every night for the past 6 months since I left. My response: "Such is the life, I was crying for 17 years, welcome to the jungle baby." He also told me that the OW had such a bad character that she could never be his friend (It took him 6 years of mine and my children's lives for him to find that out). My response: "Then, I am glad you understand that that is exactly the way I feel about you."
> 
> I did the spying things too, no solid evidence found, OW is a web developer anyway. We all do get to the point where circumstantial evidence is enough. Where we acknowledge that our gut feelings never betray us and that self-preservation is the priority.


Calibre - thanks for your insight and I'm sorry you went through this for so long. My gut says it went physical. It really does. Then I think about what my friends who know her very well stated. My one friend told me that it's like I won't be satisfied until she admits it. My heart, on the other hand, says no she may have crossed boundaries but she wouldn't do that to you!

My wife did write out a timeline, but it was interesting wording. For instance, she said that she could recall 4 times that he went with the work gang for happy hour. That doesn't state any other possible times they saw each other outside of work... Crap like that!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2xloser

If there is one thing I have learned on TAM, it's about this gut feeling phenomenon -- just about never wrong.

ALL my friends, ALL my family, everyone who knew her would not believe that my stbsww, "she of all people", could or would cheat. My own mother said, "No way, not her" when I first told her. Just sayin'...

I'm not big on polygraphs as a solution, but... 

It's eating you alive, yet you're afraid to ask her for a poly because you feel she will refuse? 

Wouldn't that then tell you what you are so desperately seeking? You're not going to now find the smoking gun from years ago through your historical spywork. And she's not going to just come out and tell you out of the blue. 

You will hear "just sit her downand tell her, she gets one chance, she tells you the truth - or you D". I've never understood that idea when there is a real question as to what occurred. It gives the accused only one thing they can say to make the partner stay. And if they don't say "I did it", you must then D or be left with no credibility.

The entire point of asking for a poly is to gauge their reaction -- and to either get that parking lot confession, or a clean test. Refusal is essentially an admission of guilt. So is subsequently googling "how to beat a polygraph", or like my stbxw, finding a dozen alternate reasons they just might fail even though they'd be telling the truth...


P.S.: I also really like the idea of having a little chat with the OM. As was stated,you do have his #...!


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## honcho

frustratedman said:


> A couple times now, I've ordered old cell phone bills. They give the number called and the location. I just ordered one from July of 2009 when I was out of town. I find myself thinking back on everything that happened and trying to piece the puzzle together. That bill should be in my mailbox by this Thursday. I just want to leave no stone unturned. There is a good chance you're right. It's almost like if it did happen, she has a great reputation for being a great, kind, caring person and a "good girl." Sometimes I wonder if she would simply take it to her grave if it did happen... You know what I mean?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


All getting old phone records at this point will only prove one thing, they talked or texted. You already know this and you know it has gone on for a long time. What are you hoping to achieve by reinforcing what you already know on that point. 

Short of getting a confession or finding pictures or it pops out by accident you will never piece the entire puzzle together. I am not faulting you for wanting information and wanting the truth. We all want that. She works with him and they have a company email acct that they can use which you wont be able to track. 

Do you think something is still going on? The majority of waywards have great reputations, kind and caring images. The good girl or good guy is not unusual so you cant rely on your image of her. In my case no one ever believed my stbx would ever cheat on me. Her friends are still shocked she ever did it once the found out. 

And yes she will take it to the grave. She has held onto it this long.


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## Calibre1212

It is a very painful experience you are going through but take heart, when you arrive at the decision that enough IS enough, you will be so strong that you won't believe who YOU have become and it is at that point that you will know exactly what to do. As a result, she will no longer be worthy of you and she will know that she either shapes up or ships out. This is no hype or pep talk, it is reality. Been there done that. Fear is not love. It is an attempt to control our pain. Love is having the courage to conquer all of our fears.


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## GusPolinski

frustratedman said:


> It's like I have a secret life of deep dark spying now and I damn near need to keep my phone locked! Just a sad situation. However, *I've read posts on this forum that make my situation look very mild.*


That's only because you don't know any more than you currently do.

And, honestly, the limbo may very well be the worst part of it.


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## GusPolinski

frustratedman said:


> Thanks mostlycontent, for your insight. Just to paint a better picture she's only said this two to three times in 3 years. It comes up when she thinks I seem down or depressed. The depression is, in my opinion, largely due to my pseudo PTSD. By the way, I'm not trying to minimize soldiers or others with "true" PTSD. But it kind of feels like I get it at times. I just obsess about it. By the way, after marriage counseling, I went to IC. This counselor was kind of trippy, talking about "inner self" and dream interpretations. When I described the whole EA/possible PA, the counselor was like "everyone makes mistakes, do you love her and want to move forward," and crap like that. Basically telling me to turn a blind eye and move forward. I just don't understand why every counselor seems to just want to brainwash you to make everything magically go away...


Horrible counselor. Seriously... what a bunch of hippy dippy bullsh*t.

You need to find a counselor that specializes in infidelity.


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## honcho

frustratedman said:


> Thanks mostlycontent, for your insight. Just to paint a better picture she's only said this two to three times in 3 years. It comes up when she thinks I seem down or depressed. The depression is, in my opinion, largely due to my pseudo PTSD. By the way, I'm not trying to minimize soldiers or others with "true" PTSD. But it kind of feels like I get it at times. I just obsess about it. By the way, after marriage counseling, I went to IC. This counselor was kind of trippy, talking about "inner self" and dream interpretations. When I described the whole EA/possible PA, the counselor was like "everyone makes mistakes, do you love her and want to move forward," and crap like that. Basically telling me to turn a blind eye and move forward. I just don't understand why every counselor seems to just want to brainwash you to make everything magically go away...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Some counselors are very good, many are very bad and do more harm than good.


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## LongWalk

Filling OM's wife/gF in will perhaps give you the answers you seek. Sometimes they know about the affair but did not spill the beans, perhaps for the same reasons as you.

You still love your wife but the uncertainty about the past is destroying your relationship. Does your wife perceive this? If must bother her since she wants to save your marriage. A good counselor would not rug sweep since the lump under the carpet reminds you of two people copulating after work.

Did your wife get different undies during the EA? How did your sex life change?

If you confirmed for certain that your wife had cheated, do you think you could get over it if she were remorseful?

Having coffee with OM's SO is at least a possible way out of limbo.

How is your sex life now? Is your wife really into you?


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## murphy5

LongWalk said:


> How is your sex life now? Is your wife really into you?


a hot sex life might be a good sign. But with an older woman...it may be natural for the sex life to be lower, even if she still does love you--just hormonal issues. So...not an accurate barometer

A sudden change in panties/bra style to much kinkier ones, especially if she does not flaunt them to you...might be a more telling thing. Or as another thread posited: "she shaved her cooch, but did not want me to see it....said she did not remember how it got shaved" or some such nonsense. LOL


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## frustratedman

Thanks to everyone for the thoughtful insight! I titled the post "let the bashing begin" because I thought for sure that folks would say I allowed this to happen, I'm a beta, etc. I didn't make my wife quit her job and we sort of went through two d-days. Thanks for not bashing me lol! By the way, on the second d-day when I found the fb message, she deleted her fb account because she said that she didn't want me to have to be wondering if she was communicating with him. This was a clear violation of our agreement. She still doesn't know that I could/can see her gmail history. She doesn't know it exists. All her friends are on fb and she never made a new account.

Our sex life is good to this day. She seems to be into me.

There are other minor things that I haven't mentioned but again, no smoking gun. It's hard to spell this all out, I mean we're talking about events that cover 6 years here! Gotta get going to work, will check back later!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered

even IF your wife isn't continuing the affair I still think you should scour her current phone, she may be telling a friend about what happened


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## Hicks

You are torturning yourself.

Some would advise to accept that there is a high probablility she screwed him, BUT she is now back in the marriage, remorseful and a good wife, good mother, and an asset to your life. IF that is the case you have to talk to yourself in a postiive manner that you are purposely accepting the past becuase you enjoy the way your life is now.

But, if you cannot do this and you are going to continue to torture yourself, your other choice is to take steps that could possibly ruin your marriage to gain the truth.

IF you must have the truth, tell her that you have a lie detector set up on a certain date, and wait for the truth to come out before or during or after. But even that could be inconclusive.

And if you cannot be happy with your wife working there, then you should tell her to make a choice between her job and her marriage.


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## warlock07

The OM need not have a iphone .. Popular Chat apps don't register on phone records. These apps exist on multiple platforms (Android, IOS, Windows and blackberry)

Does her phone have chat apps ?


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## Chaparral

GusPolinski said:


> Horrible counselor. Seriously... what a bunch of hippy dippy bullsh*t.
> 
> You need to find a counselor that specializes in infidelity.


You need a counselor that also can help with ptsd. You are in full blown ptsd nit psuedo ptsd. Soldiers here have stated infidelity was worse for them than battle.

If she still sees him at work there is no reason to believe they are not still together.

Her delay in answering if she had sex with him and crying could have been coming to the realization how bad an ea was to her life and you. Otoh, very, very few of these situations have proven to be innocent when a poster feels as you do.

Times when there are no texts may mean they were together.

You are not going to get over this unless you can get proof, poly or confession.

Firstly, get two vars, one for the house and one for the car. Put some heavy pressure on her then see who she calls and what she says.

You might talk to a lawyer to see if you can get him/her to get you the old texts.


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## Forest

frustratedman said:


> In trying to recall/type this all out, I forgot to mention that in counseling I actually stated/asked if the emotional affair had gone physical. She took about 20 seconds to answer and she was choking up. It was like it was different since there was a 3rd party present and she needed to think about the answer...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can't believe this comment has been so ignored. To me, this is hugely concerning. Damning, really.

Had this situation been as she described it, she'd have been falling all over the place to reassure you. She'd have been offering all sorts of ways to prove that nothing happened, and visibly relieved to be able to tell you this.

Unfortunately, I think that secret relationships between adults like this are usually destined for sex, its the natural progression.

Again we see the old pattern: Its always the BS that has to look inward and say "I took her for granted", "I did this, that, and the other thing."

Somehow when the wayward is caught, its out of fashion to point out that they were doing the exact same stuff most of the time, plus feeling entitled and self centered.


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## happyman64

frustrated

you mentioned you have your own issues to deal with. Lack of confidence.

Instead of wasting anymore time on your wifes issues why not focus on yourself and your marriage.

I think it would be a better use of your time and it might actually improve your relationship with your wife.

You most likely will never get any more proof or anymore "truth" to her relationship with the OM.

There actually might not be anymore to their relationship.

Focus on you. Focus on your marriage. Your wifes reaction might just surprise you.

Maybe when you feel better with yourself you will give her the proposal she obviously desired in the first place.

But first you have to mean it.

Take my advice. Put the effort into you first.

The rest will come along if you still love your wife.

HM


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## alexm

frustratedman said:


> Bottom line... Basically, I feel like we rug swept issues. I feel like she has done much to prove she loves me. I didn't force her to quit her job. I feel like I'm screwed either way because I sort of agreed to put the whole thing past me when we were in counseling. If I press the issue she will again say that nothing physical happened. I guess that's the main problem! I feel like there is NO WAY an emotional affair could last 3 years without going physical!! If I find out it did, I would need to get out of this marriage. She insists nothing physical happened. Upon conducting my research, Ive never found smoking gun proof. Some days are good. Then I remember the past and I tell myself just to say screw it. Then I think about my kids... Uuuggghhh! This situation is just so frustrating!!!
> 
> Sorry for the crazy discombobulated post everyone!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wouldn't be TOO concerned here. Though I AM still on page one, so the next few pages may shed more light...

She definitely crossed lines and blurred boundaries. In a bad way? Not necessarily. If everything you know is the truth, and there's nothing else to discover, then I wouldn't even classify this as an affair, emotional or otherwise. Living vicariously, perhaps. Getting a charge out of helping somebody else, being a wing-woman, involving herself in somebody else's love life, sure. Developing an emotional attachment to this person? It doesn't LOOK like it.

Bottom line, knowing each other since your mid-teens, dating each other since your late teens, marrying in your mid 20's, and now being late-30's with 2 kids - that's an entire lifetime of exploration, experimentation, and experience that both of you missed out on. Some valuable life-lessons would have been missed, for sure. I know, I am in the same boat and married to a woman who DID have the benefit of learning certain lessons, sometimes the hard way.

To me, it seems like just yesterday I was 18 years old and having the fun and freedom that came with it, because I did not have the experiences my wife was able to have. I married young (no kids) and divorced in my early 30's. My wife did things the "normal" way. To her, 18 seems like a lifetime ago. She learned plenty of things that I did not along the way. I knew marriage and commitment and how to share a life with one person. She knew heartbreak and the thrill of meeting new people, how to deal with varying personality types, all of that. I live in a bubble world, just as you guys are.

My best guess, with the info you have given, is that your wife loves you, is committed to you, yet has a desire to see how other people live their lives.

This can be dangerous, as the next step -could- be to try and live another life, rather than vicariously through somebody else.

It appears that you've nipped this in the bud before it gets too far out of hand, though. But appearances can be deceiving, too.

A couple of quick things to keep in mind - you know your wife better than anybody else, never mind us. She has a catholic mother, and you married young essentially because of pregnancy. You have two kids, who do still need you and depend on you. To me, unless your wife is in a total fog, it does not appear that she would willingly throw away what she has and face any kind of embarrassment or ostracization as a result. Perhaps if there were no kids, no catholic upbringing, a history of infidelity (whether with her or your parents, friends, etc.) or even between yourselves, it could be a different story.

I'm thinking (guessing, and hoping) that this is the extent of what she's capable of, in terms of infidelity. But keep your eyes open nonetheless.


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## drifting on

Frustratedman

I was in your shoes and spent over three and a half years looking for that smoking gun. What I didn't know was I already had it, my gut. You have it too but don't seem to trust it as did I. Trust it. My WW's affair was also with a co-worker. Used company phones to communicate and barely any emails. I found a lie in her story and hammered questions on that lie. It's also an interrogation technique, hammer the lie then move somewhere you know is truth. Return to the lie and hammer it more. Don't accept any answers as when she realizes this she will notice you know it's a lie. She will soon become fearful of what you know. I actually suggest you speak to him and take a folder with your phone records. Show him one record and say she has told you about this time in question. Ask for his story of that day. If he won't say or doesn't remember there is your smoking gun. 

I had to make my WW feel safe, I told her cheating was a deal breaker previously. I spoke to my WW's AP and his wife. I would contact them, but that's my opinion, I wanted that confrontation badly. End result is I got my WW to confess, her AP unemployed, his wife ready to scratch his eyes out and I'm still not done with him yet. I tend to hold a grudge and resentment towards people who attack my family. Good luck to you, I wish you all the best.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ThePheonix

frustratedman said:


> Is 100 texts to a "friend" normal? Is it normal to clearly hide information about a "secret friend" for 3+ years normal? I mean she cried when I confronted her so she knew that what she was doing was wrong. I hear what you're saying though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Its nothing for my wife to text our daughter in law 15-20 times at one sitting. The sheer number can mean are lot or a little. You can't tell anything unless you know whats in the text. And doesn't everybody delete text and messages occasionally. Also, what makes this cat a secret friend? 
Regarding her getting upset about the co workers pending marriage proposal, it sounds like the basis of her sadness is that she didn't get a romantic, on your knee, asking her to marry you. Women find that special and romantic, especially when it didn't happen to them. So maybe she did cry a little.
Based you what you've revealed to us, you're pushing the envelope accusing her of cheating. The evidence doesn't support it. You need to get this crap cleaned up and damn quick. Little in life is more pathetic and looks weaker than a overly suspicious man accusing the wife of cheating at the drop of a hat.


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## turnera

frustratedman said:


> I feel like I'm screwed either way because I sort of agreed to put the whole thing past me when we were in counseling. If I press the issue she will again say that nothing physical happened. I guess that's the main problem! I feel like there is NO WAY an emotional affair could last 3 years without going physical!!


First, it IS possible to have just an EA for 3 years. Tons of people do it. 

That said, this is your marriage, so what YOU feel is what matters. You have the right at any time to call it quits, no matter what you agreed to in the past. There's a woman here who just left her husband, 30 YEARS after his affair.

IIWY, I'd just say 'look, I can't keep doing this, the not knowing is killing me. I have to see you take a polygraph, or I just can't stay here, in this marriage. You owe me that much.'

I will say, though, that I'm not getting any red flags from your current wife. I think she went through a phase and worked her way out of it. That said, what are you doing to improve the marriage? To make yourself the best option out there? Have you read His Needs Her Needs yet? I'd be reading that, this week! For starters, you two should be spending a good 15 hours a week together, away from kids and chores and work, to preserve and strengthen your bond and love. Are you?


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## turnera

ThePheonix said:


> Regarding her getting upset about the co workers pending marriage proposal, it sounds like the basis of her sadness is that she didn't get a romantic, on your knee, asking her to marry you. Women find that special and romantic, especially when it didn't happen to them. So maybe she did cry a little.
> Based you what you've revealed to us, you're pushing the envelope accusing her of cheating. The evidence doesn't support it.


Agreed. While men grow up playing sports or games and dreaming of getting some, women grow up pretending to get married and having babies (generalization here, folks). My proposal was us sitting on his couch, next to his mom (who lived with us), and him saying 'so, I guess we should get married then?'

I'll resent him for the rest of my life for that.


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## Jellybeans

Why did you say yes, Turner?


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## roostr

I only read the first page of this thread but I don't see that you have any evidence that she cheated. It sounds to me more like a work friendship, was there anything of a romantic nature?


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## turnera

Jellybeans said:


> Why did you say yes, Turner?


Yes about what?


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## Jellybeans

About marrying him.

This thread's first posts are so broken up it's hard to piece them together.


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## turnera

Oh, well, that's complicated. I was raised in the 60s, when most women still didn't work and if you weren't married by 23, you were an old maid and nobody else would have you. I was raised to be silent and not voice my feelings or needs, that men mattered more, that it was a woman's job to be the support system. I had just spent 3 years engaged to a mentally abusive guy who had gutted what little self worth I started with (broke up with him when I finally discovered what everyone else had known all along - that he was cheating on me the whole time). My mom moved away the week I graduated high school, so I was instantly on my own, with a car payment (my ex had talked me into buying, so he could drive it) and rent and making minimum wage while I went to night school. I was living on $30/month of disposable income (for groceries, gas, etc.) and he already had his own house. He let his mom live with him, so he seemed really noble. He was the only honest guy at our work in a company full of snakes and sharks. So, all in all, it was the best deal I figured I'd ever get. I was too young and naive to understand that I was capable of just going out and charting my own course.


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## frustratedman

ThePheonix said:


> Its nothing for my wife to text our daughter in law 15-20 times at one sitting. The sheer number can mean are lot or a little. You can't tell anything unless you know whats in the text. And doesn't everybody delete text and messages occasionally. Also, what makes this cat a secret friend?
> Regarding her getting upset about the co workers pending marriage proposal, it sounds like the basis of her sadness is that she didn't get a romantic, on your knee, asking her to marry you. Women find that special and romantic, especially when it didn't happen to them. So maybe she did cry a little.
> Based you what you've revealed to us, you're pushing the envelope accusing her of cheating. The evidence doesn't support it. You need to get this crap cleaned up and damn quick. Little in life is more pathetic and looks weaker than a overly suspicious man accusing the wife of cheating at the drop of a hat.


Again, sorry this post is a bit broken up and perhaps hard to follow.

This wasn't just me accusing her at the drop of a hat. This was her texting a guy from work, who in my opinion was attracted to her, for 3 + years, in secret. She didn't tell me about it, deleted the texts and deleted his contact info. I mean on d-day I flat out asked if she knew what this number was and she played dumb. She had texted him 90 times the day before. She cried upon confrontation. If it was just me being weak and jealous, one would think she would have reacted differently.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans

turnera said:


> . I was too young and naive to understand that I was capable of just going out and charting my own course.


Hugs, Turner. I think you are pretty awesome and you help a lot of people on here with what you have learned from your experiences.

Sorry OP for the threadjack.


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## bryanp

Maybe this has been mentioned before but I do not understand why you have not insisted on your wife taking a polygraph. It will be the best $300-$400 you could spend and will be your mind at rest one way or another.


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## Cubby

bryanp said:


> Maybe this has been mentioned before but I do not understand why you have not insisted on your wife taking a polygraph. It will be the best $300-$400 you could spend and will be your mind at rest one way or another.


Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. At this point the only way he's going to get the truth is to either actually read the content of the texts, which unfortunately are deleted and are unrecoverable, or old emails, which are from work. That's it. So that leaves the polygraph.

But now he's at risk of alienating his wife with his obsession about this. Once finding out about her EA, he did the right thing by confronting her and letting her know that he won't tolerate her behavior. Going to counseling, that's good. But at some point, he has to let it go. He can't continue to beat her up emotionally and he can't continue investigating.

So maybe one polygraph appointment and then be done with it, and get on with your life.


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## frustratedman

Cubby said:


> Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. At this point the only way he's going to get the truth is to either actually read the content of the texts, which unfortunately are deleted and are unrecoverable, or old emails, which are from work. That's it. So that leaves the polygraph.
> 
> But now he's at risk of alienating his wife with his obsession about this. Once finding out about her EA, he did the right thing by confronting her and letting her know that he won't tolerate her behavior. Going to counseling, that's good. But at some point, he has to let it go. He can't continue to beat her up emotionally and he can't continue investigating.
> 
> So maybe one polygraph appointment and then be done with it, and get on with your life.


I've strongly considered this poly option. We kind of touched base previously on the thread. It's kind of an "all in" situation. I fear that she may just decline the poly and say something like "you'll never get over this" and throw in the towel. It's just not a step I'm ready for yet. It's kind of a big gamble.

Thanks to everyone for sharing their thoughts on my situation!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

And understand that you'll likely get the parking lot confession, which will be much more effective than the actual polygraph (but don't cancel it just because she confesses on the way there).


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## Openminded

Okay. I'll say it. What you just wrote about how she might react to the poly is a beta move. You're afraid of her reaction. So how do you think this will get resolved? Because she's not going to tell you.


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## turnera

frustratedman said:


> I fear that she may just decline the poly and say something like "you'll never get over this" and throw in the towel. It's just not a step I'm ready for yet. It's kind of a big gamble.


So basically, you're staying in your own personal hell because you're afraid she doesn't want you as much as you want her, and you'll accept her terms just to avoid being alone?


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## missthelove2013

blah blah blah she ****ed a co worker blah blah blah
Thats all that really matters...she did a co worker
In your eagerness to forgive and forget, you justify it...reallyu...let her tell a judge she cheated because your marriage proposal wasnt romantic enough,,the judge will pee him/her self laughing

she wanted to cheat, she found a reason...she will do it again, especially if you rug sweep this

if you are a lurker than you know damned well no one here is gonna pat you on the back and support you rug sweeping or tell you what you want to hear...so why even post this


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## naiveonedave

I see not many choices:
* live with never knowing - which sucks and will build resentment
* poly and live with the consequences. I handled correctly with any remorse or sympathy, should be okay.
* get out while not knowing.

Man up and do the poly, stop being a wimp and worrying. She owes you honesty


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## Chaparral

If she refuse the poly for the reason you gave or any other reason, it just means this was way more than she admitted to.

They may have even taken it underground. If they didn't and still work together that just might be a first here.

Before you go after the poly, get the vars, get the program to get her more current texts and see if any information you recover is any help.

It hasn't been shown here that I remember, that someone texts 90 times one day and none for a few dys after that. That could be a very good sign.


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## Suspecting2014

frustratedman said:


> I've also thought about exposing his true nature to his wife/fiance. Every man knows that texting a married woman 100 times per day is simply not right. Probably too late for that. It's just a never ending roller coaster ride dammit!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


IMO if you need to know the whole truth you may ask OMPOS.
If I were you I will do this:

Wait for the weekend, then when you are with your wife for a while make an excuse and call the OM and tell him that your wife just has confessed everything, and that you need to hear from him...

When was last time they kiss, ****, las t contact, etc. that if he is not answering you will cal, his wife and sent her the messages. dont gibe him room, must answer at the moment of the call.

Important:

he not being able to talk to er for the next few days (thats why on weekend) and not contact betwin them at least for a few hours before (to ensure his is not knowing she is not coming clean).

Not being able to ask her (NC that's supposed to be on since Dday 2) will make him weak and willing to cooperate. Note that she maybe has a burning phone, cheaters lie.
If you get something diferent you have something to confront and excuse to a poly.


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## Chaparral

The problem with trying to bluff him is that you don't know definitively when and if the affair ended. And that's if it were that much of an affair at all. Depending on her personality, she could be covering up a ton of stuff or nothing at all. 

During this time period did the frequency of your sex life or anything about your sex life change at all. What about how she dressed for work, going out, losing weight ?


----------



## frustratedman

Chaparral said:


> The problem with trying to bluff him is that you don't know definitively when and if the affair ended. And that's if it were that much of an affair at all. Depending on her personality, she could be covering up a ton of stuff or nothing at all.
> 
> During this time period did the frequency of your sex life or anything about your sex life change at all. What about how she dressed for work, going out, losing weight ?


She started losing weight right around the same time that the EA started. She's always dressed very fashionable though. Sex life was and always has been good. One comment that has bothered me is that once during the summer of 2011 after the whole "why are we married" discussion was had, we were talking about sexual frequency. She said something like "you've always got it a lot. There are guys out there who only get it once a month." Then she referred to one of her girlfriend's husband, who apparently only wanted it once every couple weeks. This was prior to me discovering the texts. So just to clarify, the whole "why are we married"/proposal discussion led to me snooping, which led to discovery of the texts, which led to d-day/confrontation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lenzi

frustratedman said:


> I've strongly considered this poly option. We kind of touched base previously on the thread. It's kind of an "all in" situation. I fear that she may just decline the poly and say something like "you'll never get over this" and throw in the towel. It's just not a step I'm ready for yet. It's kind of a big gamble.


This is really not the way to handle this.

It's obvious to everyone, including her, that you're walking on eggshells around her and you're afraid of her because she's got all the power and she might just decide to walk away.

It will never work if you maintain your attitude of living in fear of her and what she might do.

You HAVE to show her that you're tough enough and independent enough that you aren't afraid to lose her, you've gotta turn it around so she's willing to do whatever it takes to "win you back" since she was the one who did wrong.

If you don't do this, she will never respect you, she will hold all the power in the relationship and the odds are good that she'll cheat on you again.


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## frustratedman

missthelove2013 said:


> blah blah blah she ****ed a co worker blah blah blah
> Thats all that really matters...she did a co worker
> In your eagerness to forgive and forget, you justify it...reallyu...let her tell a judge she cheated because your marriage proposal wasnt romantic enough,,the judge will pee him/her self laughing
> 
> she wanted to cheat, she found a reason...she will do it again, especially if you rug sweep this
> 
> if you are a lurker than you know damned well no one here is gonna pat you on the back and support you rug sweeping or tell you what you want to hear...so why even post this


I am a lurker and expected comments like this, hence the title of this post. I am also a beta, to a degree, I guess. I've been told that I tend to be on the sensitive side. Growing up in a neighborhood with literally all girls and an older sister appears to have had an effect on shaping my perspective. I do "manly" stuff with my friends and my kids (2 boys) and try to set a good example for them. Around 3rd grade, I finally started hanging with boys a few blocks away. By the way, I'm definitely "into" women. I'm expecting to now be told that I'm not attractive to women with sort of attitude. I haven't read MMSP yet. Maybe I should. Maybe me posting this is trying to wake myself up and snap out of it...

Again, just putting this stuff out is hard and I appreciate all the responses, good, bad and ugly!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

lenzi said:


> This is really not the way to handle this.
> 
> It's obvious to everyone, including her, that you're walking on eggshells around her and you're afraid of her because she's got all the power and she might just decide to walk away.
> 
> It will never work if you maintain your attitude of living in fear of her and what she might do.
> 
> You HAVE to show her that you're tough enough and independent enough that you aren't afraid to lose her, you've gotta turn it around so she's willing to do whatever it takes to "win you back" since she was the one who did wrong.
> 
> If you don't do this, she will never respect you, she will hold all the power in the relationship and the odds are good that she'll cheat on you again.


Points well taken! Perhaps I've gotta man up. If it turns out that ultimately I feel she didn't cheat, she wad being truthful and I lose her, destroy my family and commit "financial suicide," so be it. Then I lost everything and I feel I'm likely to never experience love again but at least I've got my pride. Again I want her to want to fight for me. I think she is but may be wrong... This is why I've let things slide. It's like I want to be 100% sure I'm ready to do this when I do it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Thing is, you don't have an equal relationship. One in which you can be 100% honest with her. Shoot for that. "I don't feel right in this marriage any more because I still feel like you haven't told me the truth. Honestly, I want to be married to you, but this uncertainty is dragging me down and I'm not sure I can stay with you unless you find a way to prove to me nothing else happened. I guess we can try the polygraph and see where that takes us."


----------



## frustratedman

turnera said:


> First, it IS possible to have just an EA for 3 years. Tons of people do it.
> 
> That said, this is your marriage, so what YOU feel is what matters. You have the right at any time to call it quits, no matter what you agreed to in the past. There's a woman here who just left her husband, 30 YEARS after his affair.
> 
> IIWY, I'd just say 'look, I can't keep doing this, the not knowing is killing me. I have to see you take a polygraph, or I just can't stay here, in this marriage. You owe me that much.'
> 
> I will say, though, that I'm not getting any red flags from your current wife. I think she went through a phase and worked her way out of it. That said, what are you doing to improve the marriage? To make yourself the best option out there? Have you read His Needs Her Needs yet? I'd be reading that, this week! For starters, you two should be spending a good 15 hours a week together, away from kids and chores and work, to preserve and strengthen your bond and love. Are you?


We both read 5 languages of love. We tried to start communicating more and the results were good. Keep in mind, this was 3 years ago. We have worked on the marriage and things are good. The only bad part is that I'm the kind of person who needs to know everything. Also, I'm a root cause/problem solver type of person. So my brain can't seem to grasp how this a-hole wouldn't have put the moves on her. Again, it's not all the time. I get in ruts and sort of flash back to the EA. Then my brain won't shut off for a while... Then it subsides and rears it's ugly head a few weeks later. The roller coaster ride that infidelity seems to cause...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

turnera said:


> Thing is, you don't have an equal relationship. One in which you can be 100% honest with her. Shoot for that. "I don't feel right in this marriage any more because I still feel like you haven't told me the truth. Honestly, I want to be married to you, but this uncertainty is dragging me down and I'm not sure I can stay with you unless you find a way to prove to me nothing else happened. I guess we can try the polygraph and see where that takes us."


It does seem that the poly is damn near my only realistic option. Thanks for your advice!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tom67

frustratedman said:


> It does seem that the poly is damn near my only realistic option. Thanks for your advice!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


More her reaction to taking one and maybe just maybe getting the parking lot confession.


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## helolover

I was used to living in fear. 

I then determined it wasn't worth it. 

Seek the truth, however you find it. 

You're going to be ok. 

regardless of the outcome.

I promise you.


-HL (late night poet)


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## totalfive21

Frustrated,

Just wanted to let you know that you're not alone. It's not a decision to be taken lightly to keep pushing one's WS (even "just" with an EA) on questions about the past. In a perfect world the WS would fight for you, gladly take a poly, etc., but even if innocent, their argument that they don't deserve to be raked over the coals for a lifetime resonates with some of us BS's, rightly or wrongly. For what it's worth, I do think that your wife should find another job -- for sure her relationship was inappropriate and that's grounds enough for her to not work with the OM.

My DDay was nearly two years ago, and like you, only evidence of an EA. Off and on I go into hyper detective/investigator mode and have found little, or basically nothing. My WH (or former WH) has given me no reason to think he still has contact with the OW and has been loving, attentive, etc., but he works close to 60 hours a week, we have a young child, and I don't feel there has been enough one on one time as required by a reconciliation. Yes there has been rugsweeping -- he prefers to keep it all in the past and if I bring it up he accuses me of perpetuating the problem. 

The hyper vigilance has affected my health and I actually developed an ulcer that a GI specialist is trying to treat. Not saying this applies to you, but an alternative theory about my own investigative work is that I want to find some evidence of continued contact, and use that to have the moral high ground when I end it. Such a sentiment obviously signals that we had/have deeper problems in the marriage, namely that he also has anger management problems. When our son was born (8 years ago) he became hypercritical of my parenting and basically emotionally abusive. Those days are long over and my H now praises my parenting, but I was already carrying around those wounds. Add to that an EA, and boom -- why try to save something that was bad. Like a chump I did try, and he chose to be with me. At times wishing I had just called it quits then.

Anyway, hang in there and try to trust that the answer will come in time. If not about her past, then at least about what you want to do.


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## Chaparral

frustratedman said:


> She started losing weight right around the same time that the EA started. She's always dressed very fashionable though. Sex life was and always has been good. One comment that has bothered me is that once during the summer of 2011 after the whole "why are we married" discussion was had, we were talking about sexual frequency. She said something like "you've always got it a lot. There are guys out there who only get it once a month." Then she referred to one of her girlfriend's husband, who apparently only wanted it once every couple weeks. This was prior to me discovering the texts. So just to clarify, the whole "why are we married"/proposal discussion led to me snooping, which led to discovery of the texts, which led to d-day/confrontation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Before you go demanding the polygraph, get the two books linked to below. Marriage tends to betaize men. You don't sound that bad to me, though your fear she might bolt is weak and needy.

Mmslp is just for you, you needed this years ago so quit putting it off. It explains how the attraction your wife has for works.........or doesn't. NJF is for you both. As you read it together you may get more insight to her thinking and she may be more forthcoming seeing what the definitve work on these situations has to offer.

My .02 cents is that it wasn't an ea that was nearly as bad as what we usually see here. The usual mo is constant texting, this seems like a lot of texting but intermittent. Unless this can be explained I just don't see it as a big love affair thing.

Did she text on weekends when she was with family, vacations and holidays when she couldn't see him at work? Have you used a calender to see what days the texting was going on or when you might not have been around?


----------



## frustratedman

totalfive21 said:


> Frustrated,
> 
> Just wanted to let you know that you're not alone. It's not a decision to be taken lightly to keep pushing one's WS (even "just" with an EA) on questions about the past. In a perfect world the WS would fight for you, gladly take a poly, etc., but even if innocent, their argument that they don't deserve to be raked over the coals for a lifetime resonates with some of us BS's, rightly or wrongly. For what it's worth, I do think that your wife should find another job -- for sure her relationship was inappropriate and that's grounds enough for her to not work with the OM.
> 
> My DDay was nearly two years ago, and like you, only evidence of an EA. Off and on I go into hyper detective/investigator mode and have found little, or basically nothing. My WH (or former WH) has given me no reason to think he still has contact with the OW and has been loving, attentive, etc., but he works close to 60 hours a week, we have a young child, and I don't feel there has been enough one on one time as required by a reconciliation. Yes there has been rugsweeping -- he prefers to keep it all in the past and if I bring it up he accuses me of perpetuating the problem.
> 
> The hyper vigilance has affected my health and I actually developed an ulcer that a GI specialist is trying to treat. Not saying this applies to you, but an alternative theory about my own investigative work is that I want to find some evidence of continued contact, and use that to have the moral high ground when I end it. Such a sentiment obviously signals that we had/have deeper problems in the marriage, namely that he also has anger management problems. When our son was born (8 years ago) he became hypercritical of my parenting and basically emotionally abusive. Those days are long over and my H now praises my parenting, but I was already carrying around those wounds. Add to that an EA, and boom -- why try to save something that was bad. Like a chump I did try, and he chose to be with me. At times wishing I had just called it quits then.
> 
> Anyway, hang in there and try to trust that the answer will come in time. If not about her past, then at least about what you want to do.


This was well stated and thanks for posting. I'm sorry you went through physical health problems, that's a tough situation, obviously.

Did your FWH have access to make it physical? I mean could they, in theory, had physical contact? Being a guy, I almost think that's really a "beta" move. There's a "hot" woman in the picture. You've developed an emotional connection. She has "let you in" emotionally. Why, on this green earth, would the guy not go for the next natural step? How did you rule out PA and if it was PA would that have changed your decision to stay?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

Chaparral said:


> Before you go demanding the polygraph, get the two books linked to below. Marriage tends to betaize men. You don't sound that bad to me, though your fear she might bolt is weak and needy.
> 
> Mmslp is just for you, you needed this years ago so quit putting it off. It explains how the attraction your wife has for works.........or doesn't. NJF is for you both. As you read it together you may get more insight to her thinking and she may be more forthcoming seeing what the definitve work on these situations has to offer.
> 
> My .02 cents is that it wasn't an ea that was nearly as bad as what we usually see here. The usual mo is constant texting, this seems like a lot of texting but intermittent. Unless this can be explained I just don't see it as a big love affair thing.
> 
> Did she text on weekends when she was with family, vacations and holidays when she couldn't see him at work? Have you used a calender to see what days the texting was going on or when you might not have been around?


So, as far as the books, I'll check into the MMSLP but won't bring out NJF quite yet. I bottle this up inside so it might seem strange for me to have her read it out of the blue...

As far as all the phone records, I could only see 3 months worth of text data and 12 months of calls/locations. Believe me, I've sliced and diced that information many times. Here are all the signs/clues that I found:

The texts weren't consistent, as you mentioned. One of the days really stood out, looking at the time frames of the texts. It's hard to explain and wordy, but here it is and it's going to possibly sound crazy.

We had a small car and an suv. I normally drove the suv. This was 4 months prior to d day and even before the wedding proposal conversation so everything was fairly normal at the time. The small car needed to be fixed so I took the day off and went to her uncle's garage for the day. She took the suv, which has extremely dark tinted windows. I remembered that night coming home and seeing this black mark on her shirt. I jokingly asked if she had been crawling around the back of the suv because I had previously had that happen to me when I folded the back seats down and I was hauling something. It's basically the floor mat. She replied "I don't know maybe a cigarette ash." We both smoked at the time (both quit since). There's no way a cig ash would make this kind of mark. Anyhow later that night I went outside and opened the back door of the suv. The seatbelt was caught behind the seat or whatever. In other words, the seat had clearly been down. Since I normally drove that vehicle, at the time, I made mental note of this because I know I didn't put it down. Then, 3.5 months later, after discovering the texts, I checked that day in question. Only a few texts but important timing. She texted him early around 7:00 when he apparently worked a later shift (9 or so). He texted back right away. Then, she texted him around her lunch time. Then, she left work (sometimes they get out early if there isn't much work). So, in my possibly warped mind, wonder if she did something in the back of our vehicle at work... I've never discussed this with her because I know she'll say I'm crazy and she would be highly offended. I can actually imagine if I brought this up. Could it, in theory, have happened? Yes. Could it have been coincidences that just make it appear bad? Yes. Are these 3 things a "smoking gun?" Hell no!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

She works at a large company with surveillance. So, again, my warped mind seems to think "if there is a will, there's a way." This is the gut feeling. I ran this by my guy friends and they think it's crazy (these are the two close friends that have known her for years since we were kids).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

Then, there is that damn draft text that I found. "Sounds like someone needs to fu." I asked her about this and she said she truly doesn't recall. That's, ver batim, what it said. Fu was the actual end. I'm not just saying that to avoid swearing on this forum. This was like the first weekend after d-day, during hyper bonding or whatever it's called.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

Then, I saw the gmail google search history. She had looked up a restaurant in d bag's home town at the time. She looked it up a week prior to being there. That was right around his birthday. I was out of town at the time, camping with my boys. The only linking evidence was a cc transaction at this joint. The phone records didn't go this far back so I ordered them. Nothing damning there. They only show calls/locations and number of texts not the actual text data.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

So, Chaparal, or anyone else, what do you make of these discoveries? Weak sauce or valid concerns? I previously mentioned that I recently ordered a bill from 09. This was at a time when I was out of town with friends at a concert. I recall her calling me and saying she was going out or staying at her girlfriend's for the night. I would just like to see this data. It could be damning. Probably won't but it seems I just can't leave a stone unturned. That bill should be here by Thursday.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

frustratedman said:


> Then, there is that damn draft text that I found. "Sounds like someone needs to fu." I asked her about this and she said she truly doesn't recall. That's, ver batim, what it said. Fu was the actual end. I'm not just saying that to avoid swearing on this forum. This was like the first weekend after d-day, during hyper bonding or whatever it's called.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


On a side note, does hyper sexual bonding some sort of link? I mean, would that have happened if she was only crossing boundaries a little or does that make you think that the affair was an EA turned PA?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lenzi

frustratedman said:


> On a side note, does hyper sexual bonding some sort of link? I mean, would that have happened if she was only crossing boundaries a little or does that make you think that the affair was an EA turned PA?


You quoted yourself and you asked yourself a question?

Not sure what you need us for then?


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## frustratedman

So, these are the pains I deal with. She's truly a special person. I know this sounds cliche, but even neutral outside people who have no stake in the situation have told me this, unsolicited. So during the good parts of the roller coaster ride, I think "man I've got this beautiful, smart, kind woman who loves me, is remorseful, etc. Why can't I just accept this, believe her and enjoy our life and marriage? Then, a while later, something will trigger my gut and I'll go back to wanting to know everything and find the smoking gun. During our MC, I told the C that I felt I was played for a fool. This bothered my wife but I felt it was true and needed to be said.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

lenzi said:


> You quoted yourself and you asked yourself a question?
> 
> Not sure what you need us for then?


Sorry I'm new to typing this stuff out and I'm on my cell. It was only because I thought of this when I re-read it. Poor forum etiquette? I'm just scatter brained right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lenzi

I feel like when I post, I'm intruding on someone's diary.


----------



## lenzi

frustratedman said:


> Sorry I'm new to typing this stuff out and I'm on my cell. It was only because I thought of this when I re-read it. Poor forum etiquette? I'm just scatter brained right now.


You're doing fine. It might be a bit difficult for people to respond to you when they have to read pages of your ongoing journal but there's nothing wrong with it.


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## frustratedman

It probably is like a journal lol. A hard to read, poorly written, discombobulated journal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lenzi

frustratedman said:


> It probably is like a journal lol. A hard to read, poorly written, discombobulated journal.


Don't be so hard on yourself, its a good read.


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## ThePheonix

frustratedman said:


> Then, there is that damn draft text that I found. "Sounds like someone needs to fu."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Fill in the word:

Furnish (an explanation, equipment, tools, a place to work, etc.)
Fuel (the vehicle)
Fulfill (their obligation)
Function (better than they have)

Your evidence is pretty weak my man. You've presented nothing that would hold up even in one of my mock (classroom) courts. They'd shoot you down like a dove over a baited field.


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## nickgtg

ThePheonix said:


> Fill in the word:
> 
> Furnish (an explanation, equipment, tools, a place to work, etc.)
> Fuel (the vehicle)
> Fulfill (their obligation)
> Function (better than they have)
> 
> Your evidence is pretty weak my man. You've presented nothing that would hold up even in one of my mock (classroom) courts. They'd shoot you down like a dove over a baited field.


Let's be real here, most anyone who reads that is thinking the same thing. Of course, like you said, proving it is entirely different.


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## Cubby

Frustratedman, you're driving yourself crazy. Somehow, you've got to get this resolved. Either drop it, or do the polygraph thing. By the way, none of us can be 100 percent sure our spouses have never cheated. Just a thought.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2xloser

frustratedman said:


> ... I think "man I've got this beautiful, smart, kind woman who loves me, is remorseful, etc. Why can't I just accept this, believe her and enjoy our life and marriage?


Because you don't feel like you know what it is you're forgivng, and what she is remorseful for. Because your gut tells you something different...as you've built up that gut feeling with all your tiny discoveries, real or imagined. 

Be honest: If she told you there was "more", there was some physical interaction, but it's over long ago and she was totally remorseful and sorry and begged your forgiveness etc. -- what would you do?

I think you'd stay anyway, and if so maybe that's your real dilemma? You want to know what you've convinced yourself you already know in your gut, but haven't settled within yourself what you wouldn't go and do about it anyway. So, no poly, no further discussion. Just gnawing feeling and 3-year-later investigations looking for something to validate what your inner gut is telling you -- but seriously ask yourself, for what purpose? There's no shame imho to admitting you're willing to live with it. What you'd then need to do is move forward, ensure there is nothing further or current, start fresh looking forward, not backward.

Just a thought.


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## frustratedman

ThePheonix said:


> Fill in the word:
> 
> Furnish (an explanation, equipment, tools, a place to work, etc.)
> Fuel (the vehicle)
> Fulfill (their obligation)
> Function (better than they have)
> 
> Your evidence is pretty weak my man. You've presented nothing that would hold up even in one of my mock (classroom) courts. They'd shoot you down like a dove over a baited field.


I understand what you're saying. It is weak. But, knowing how she talks, I can nearly assure you the word was going to be "the f word." But it was probably in the "ing" form, not the stand alone form and a period. Something like "it sounds like someone needs to f'ing grow up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ThePheonix

nickgtg said:


> Let's be real here, most anyone who reads that is thinking the same thing. Of course, like you said, proving it is entirely different.


Of course if you're going to dynamite a marriage over it, I think the evidence needs to support the action. (to the extent to convince a reasonable person) I hope he gets more than he has if he's going that route. Other than that, he'll have to control his suspicions or his suspicions will control him.


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## Chaparral

I think you need to use the program Gus Polinski advises to see if she is communicating to anyone about this problem she has with you. No matter how stealthy you think you are, I'll bet she knows something is amiss with you.

The thing is everything, even combined, really can be interpreted in different ways.

I think the most important thing to do is get ptsd counseling. There are new techniques that are very effective.

Was it fu or fu period? Either way, it doesn't mean fu with your wife. There is literally no indication of romance, just more texting than one can be comfortable with. Yes she feels guilty but guilty for making you doubt her or guilty for falling in love with someone else. But, normally, what we see here when a spouse gets caught in an emotional affair, they don't just confess and do everything asked of them. They hang on to the affair like a junk yard dog.

Didn't she say he was an alcoholic? Is she the type to try and mentor and save someone from themselves?


----------



## ThePheonix

frustratedman said:


> Something like "it sounds like someone needs to f'ing grow up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How does that jib with her having an affair? Dawg, there are multiple possibilities to every red flag you've stated. You cannot drive yourself crazy investigating the same stuff over and over. All you have is, well this could possibly point to some improprieties. My biggest defense of her is that, by your own admission, your sex life didn't change. Most women cannot stock two shelves. Did any other action in her relationship with you change? Women lie with their lips but they cannot lie with their actions. Those that possibly could would have been a hell of a lot slicker than your wife.


----------



## frustratedman

2xloser said:


> Because you don't feel like you know what it is you're forgivng, and what she is remorseful for. Because your gut tells you something different...as you've built up that gut feeling with all your tiny discoveries, real or imagined.
> 
> Be honest: If she told you there was "more", there was some physical interaction, but it's over long ago and she was totally remorseful and sorry and begged your forgiveness etc. -- what would you do?
> 
> I think you'd stay anyway, and if so maybe that's your real dilemma? You want to know what you've convinced yourself you already know in your gut, but haven't settled within yourself what you wouldn't go and do about it anyway. So, no poly, no further discussion. Just gnawing feeling and 3-year-later investigations looking for something to validate what your inner gut is telling you -- but seriously ask yourself, for what purpose? There's no shame imho to admitting you're willing to live with it. What you'd then need to do is move forward, ensure there is nothing further or current, start fresh looking forward, not backward.
> 
> Just a thought.


This is along the lines of what my IC stated and I certainly understand it. I wish my wandering mind/gut would simply allow it. I sometimes wish I wouldn't have found this site. I've read so many stories from so many people that it even encourages me to dig deeper. "Why would my wife not cheat when nearly all the other husbands' wives had?" Yet, here I am... Looking for similar situations, trying to figure it out... Thanks to everyone for your thoughts. Maybe I really do need further counseling or some sort of depression drug... Those drugs scare me and I don't want to become a zombie. The funny/sad part is I hide it all and the MC said that this comes out "sideways" when it's bottled up. Very true!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WalterWhite

Calibre1212 said:


> My husband was in a 6 year secret friendship. He first met her a few weeks before he left his job at that company. To this day, he denies that it was a PA, but then, he even denies it was an EA (LOL!). I was left with a clever pair to deal with. He admits that she offered him sex but he refused it (Lol!).
> 
> Do I have hard evidence...No. It is actually evidence that the phone bills showed him juggling his time between her and me and alas, even another one. The thing with the phone bills after studying them, is that when he was with me, he wasn't, of course, calling/texting me, so what are the odds that when he was with her, he wasn't calling/txting her? So when he was with A, B and C got txted/called...See the pattern?
> 
> But interestingly, she said he betrayed her (the narrow-minded one believed she was the betrayed one). She told him that I am crazy to believe they were having an affair (knowing fully well that she had told him she was naked and her legs were spread under the sheets with one dangling off the bed). On my first contact attempt with her, she said "...I don't know why I am telling you this, but _____ and I have been friends for many, many years and if you try to contact me again I will sue you for harassment". Here it is, a girl who can't even add up the fact that he and I were married for 8 years before the "years and years" of her friendship began with him. But yet she was giving him marital advice having never been married and being 10 years younger than me....Here's the punchline...I am a counselor! Not to mention, she sent him a text he deleted and did not disclose this to me during the initial stages of our false reconciliation.
> 
> Was it a PA? Well, yep, according to my gut. I had to sort through all of this by myself. This is the crucial question, "Does this person have a conscience for me?" Worse, does this person have a conscience? To objectively answer these questions is key. You see, I had to admit that during those 6 years, we rarely had sex. So, where was he getting it? Yes, conveniently she was in the picture all of that time. It is absolutely cruel for a person to force another person to seek the truth. The day came when I was able to respect myself enough to say I own my gut feelings, they are no longer subject to his gaslighting.
> 
> It took me two years to review the previous 15 years and I ended up telling him my conclusion about his 6 year (or more) secret friendship: "Quite frankly my dear, I no longer give a f." You and she may now kiss my azz. I left him. He told me that he has been crying every night for the past 6 months since I left. My response: "Such is the life, I was crying for 17 years, welcome to the jungle baby." He also told me that the OW had such a bad character that she could never be his friend (It took him 6 years of mine and my children's lives for him to find that out). My response: "Then, I am glad you understand that that is exactly the way I feel about you."
> 
> I did the spying things too, no solid evidence found, OW is a web developer anyway. We all do get to the point where circumstantial evidence is enough. Where we acknowledge that our gut feelings never betray us and that self-preservation is the priority.


It is very rude and insensitive of you to hijack this poor mans thread. Zip it. It's not about you...hello!?!


----------



## nickgtg

ThePheonix said:


> Of course if you're going to dynamite a marriage over it, I think the evidence needs to support the action. (to the extent to convince a reasonable person) I hope he gets more than he has if he's going that route. Other than that, he'll have to control his suspicions or his suspicions will control him.


Well, he has other reasons he's basing his feelings on. Let's be real here, I know for me at least, when my gut tells me something it's usually right. Like I said, he can't prove anything, but most would think it means the obvious. That other stuff you posted doesn't even make any sense in regards to it's possible meaning.

He's in a tough situation for sure.


----------



## frustratedman

Chaparral said:


> I think you need to use the program Gus Polinski advises to see if she is communicating to anyone about this problem she has with you. No matter how stealthy you think you are, I'll bet she knows something is amiss with you.
> 
> The thing is everything, even combined, really can be interpreted in different ways.
> 
> I think the most important thing to do is get ptsd counseling. There are new techniques that are very effective.
> 
> Was it fu or fu period? Either way, it doesn't mean fu with your wife. There is literally no indication of romance, just more texting than one can be comfortable with. Yes she feels guilty but guilty for making you doubt her or guilty for falling in love with someone else. But, normally, what we see here when a spouse gets caught in an emotional affair, they don't just confess and do everything asked of them. They hang on to the affair like a junk yard dog.
> 
> Didn't she say he was an alcoholic? Is she the type to try and mentor and save someone from themselves?


So, to clarify, it was exactly as I quoted it. It was like she was texting something then got interrupted. "Sounds like someone needs to fu"

You're probably right that I need further treatment.

Yes she is a care taker type.

But she minimized things when initially confronted and later I found out the truth. For instance, at first she told me that it had been going on for 6 months or so. But later, in her timeline, she admitted they texted on and off "over the years." Her gmail history (which she has no idea about) shows she looked up "emotional affair versus friendship" in August 2008. So for 3 years, how could this have gone on with no physical contact? Am I a moron to believe this? That's the root problem here. I refuse to be played for a fool and if it did get physical, I'm believe I'm out, regardless of how many lives are affected. It seems highly unlikely! However, I have no proof, obviously.

I really doubt looking at her phone for current stuff will result in anything. She probably only told her one best friend, who is, ironically, a marriage counselor herself. Then I think "well if her friend knows about it, is she a "toxic friend?" My wife doesn't protect her phone. She gave me her passwords. If anything the VAR idea would only work under perfect conditions. I would need to cause a stir and she would need to talk to her MC friend at the right place at the right time.

By the way, before my scatter brain forgets, after I saw the drafts, confronted, etc., I checked her phone and low and behold - she deleted the drafts. When I mentioned that I saw her drafts, she said "oh you saw the one that said WTF?" She didn't bring up the "sounds like someone needs to fu" draft. So, of course, I did. She down played it and played the "I truly don't remember" card. So it's this micro-analyzing stuff that I deal with! Clearly, of the 4 drafts, the most concerning one isn't the one she brought up. Again - minimization!

There is a whole bunch of small details but no smoke, no gun. As they say "the devil's in the details." I get that she was trying to not hurt me. But honestly... I deserve the truth!

All this said, when we're with each other, things are good. I just need to find out the truth and get past this. I realize that it's unhealthy and not a positive contribution to the marriage.

I just don't want to destroy our family and everything we've invested and blow this up without more info!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Suspecting2014

frustratedman said:


> So, to clarify, it was exactly as I quoted it. It was like she was texting something then got interrupted. "Sounds like someone needs to fu"
> 
> You're probably right that I need further treatment.
> 
> Yes she is a care taker type.
> 
> But she minimized things when initially confronted and later I found out the truth. For instance, at first she told me that it had been going on for 6 months or so. But later, in her timeline, she admitted they texted on and off "over the years." Her gmail history (which she has no idea about) shows she looked up "emotional affair versus friendship" in August 2008. So for 3 years, how could this have gone on with no physical contact? Am I a moron to believe this? That's the root problem here. I refuse to be played for a fool and if it did get physical, I'm believe I'm out, regardless of how many lives are affected. It seems highly unlikely! However, I have no proof, obviously.
> 
> I really doubt looking at her phone for current stuff will result in anything. She probably only told her one best friend, who is, ironically, a marriage counselor herself. Then I think "well if her friend knows about it, is she a "toxic friend?" My wife doesn't protect her phone. She gave me her passwords. If anything the VAR idea would only work under perfect conditions. I would need to cause a stir and she would need to talk to her MC friend at the right place at the right time.
> 
> By the way, before my scatter brain forgets, after I saw the drafts, confronted, etc., I checked her phone and low and behold - she deleted the drafts. When I mentioned that I saw her drafts, she said "oh you saw the one that said WTF?" She didn't bring up the "sounds like someone needs to fu" draft. So, of course, I did. She down played it and played the "I truly don't remember" card. So it's this micro-analyzing stuff that I deal with! Clearly, of the 4 drafts, the most concerning one isn't the one she brought up. Again - minimization!
> 
> There is a whole bunch of small details but no smoke, no gun. As they say "the devil's in the details." I get that she was trying to not hurt me. But honestly... I deserve the truth!
> 
> All this said, when we're with each other, things are good. I just need to find out the truth and get past this. I realize that it's unhealthy and not a positive contribution to the marriage.
> 
> *I just don't want to destroy our family and everything we've invested and blow this up without more info!*_Posted via Mobile Device_


FM, 
I believe that you are not destroying or trying to destroy your family, I think you are trying to heal and be well for them!
I also believe that in one hand you are scared about what could be found and in the other hand you really need to know to heal.
I want you to know that:
1. DONT BE AFRAID!
If you find anything you will be in control to decide. In the worse scenario is not a must that you fill divorce, you can chose R. Don’t worry for things that you don’t know!
2. SHARE WITH HER YOUR NEEDS
I believe that your wife really loves you so don’t be afraid to share these feelings with her and ask for a poly. She lied and lied again and broke NC, so you can explain her that you want to trust her but you can until she gets a poly to let all this crab behind.
3. AS LONG AS YOUR ARE NOT HEALING YOU ARE DAMAGING YOUR MARRIAGE.
As long as you are in pain, it will reflect in your marriage and your children environment. As health and happy people are in marriage the stronger and better it is! Being paralyzed only makes thing worse!!!!
So…
Explain her how you feel and ask for a poly.
Watch her internet search, phone and PC, for “bating poly”, etc. If found something confront her.
Get the appointment and take it, if there is something she is hiding probably she will tell you before.
Do it ASAP there is not any excuse you could find to wait, just go and talk to her this very night. Look for a poly tester in your area.
Just 2 more things:
Whatever you find, or find not, she really needs to find another job!!!
Get the expensive certified poly, there’s lot information in TAM


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## catsa

How about "Someone needs to F*ck You"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## old red

"I just don't want to destroy our family and everything we've invested and blow this up without more info!"

you haven't destroyed anything;please remember that. your wife on the other hand...


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## Chaparral

I want to point out when folks come here they usually have more than you and their gut is generally right. However, men are paranoid by nature. Its a survival instinct. In a study I read about though, women's gut instinct was right 80% of the time. Unfortunately, a man's gut instinct is only right 50% of the time.

I actually think it is a good thing she was looking up emotional affair. Someone may have mentioned to her she may be falling into one and she decided to research the possibility. At what point in the timeline did she look this up.

From everything I've read here I just don't see a physical a or much of an ea either. And that isn't the way I normally see things here.


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## alexm

frustratedman said:


> We had a small car and an suv. I normally drove the suv. This was 4 months prior to d day and even before the wedding proposal conversation so everything was fairly normal at the time. The small car needed to be fixed so I took the day off and went to her uncle's garage for the day. She took the suv, which has extremely dark tinted windows. I remembered that night coming home and seeing this black mark on her shirt. I jokingly asked if she had been crawling around the back of the suv because I had previously had that happen to me when I folded the back seats down and I was hauling something. It's basically the floor mat. She replied "I don't know maybe a cigarette ash." We both smoked at the time (both quit since). There's no way a cig ash would make this kind of mark. Anyhow later that night I went outside and opened the back door of the suv. The seatbelt was caught behind the seat or whatever. In other words, the seat had clearly been down. Since I normally drove that vehicle, at the time, I made mental note of this because I know I didn't put it down. Then, 3.5 months later, after discovering the texts, I checked that day in question. Only a few texts but important timing. She texted him early around 7:00 when he apparently worked a later shift (9 or so). He texted back right away. Then, she texted him around her lunch time. Then, she left work (sometimes they get out early if there isn't much work). So, in my possibly warped mind, wonder if she did something in the back of our vehicle at work... I've never discussed this with her because I know she'll say I'm crazy and she would be highly offended. I can actually imagine if I brought this up. Could it, in theory, have happened? Yes. Could it have been coincidences that just make it appear bad? Yes. Are these 3 things a "smoking gun?" Hell no!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


To me "smoking gun" is relative. It really is. One doesn't necessarily have to catch somebody red-handed to show that something's wrong. Obviously it helps to know you are in the right if the **** hits the fan, but all the same, simple evidence combined with the person circumventing questions, minimizing things and otherwise not providing solid and plausible explanations can be, and is enough for some folks. It comes down to gut instincts more often than not, with the "hard proof" only being the part that cements what you already suspect.

None of that is to say "divorce your spouse simply because something seems off", but at some point, you are owed proper explanations as well as an understanding of where you are coming from.

In the case of the suv, I would have probed further. You probably still can, though the odds are, you'll get the "I don't remember" answer.

You effectively asked what the black mark on her shirt was. She threw out a guess (and a poor one, at that) as a response. You didn't find out til later that night that the back seats had been folded down, and putting 2 and 2 together, you remembered that you also got dirty when putting the seats down previously.

So, now you pretty much know that she folded the seats down for some reason, but you don't know (and didn't ask) what that reason was. It could have been something completely innocuous - however, your wife likely would have provided that explanation to you right off the bat. "How did you get that black mark on your shirt?" "I folded the rear seats down to load (whatever) into the truck, and I must have brushed something dirty".

Instead, you got some throwaway guess response that you admittedly said didn't really make sense. Cigarette ash, after you both had quit smoking.

I'm not suggesting you handled this wrong, but... you handled this wrong. I know in the moment you're likely not thinking of what to ask next, and/or you were okay with the response. But it obviously weighed on you, especially when you realized the rear seats had been folded down later on that evening. Not all of us are born interrogators with the ability to draw information out AND not make it seem like an interrogation.

But to me, the problem seems to be that she minimizes your questions - about the suv, about the texts, etc. The answers may be quick in most cases, sometimes not. But they all seem to be the throwaway type responses that somebody gives when they're uncomfortable. In other words, the responses to your questions don't seem complete.

If she folded the seats down in the suv for a good reason, only an hour or two prior to your question about the mark on her shirt, then her response wouldn't have been basically "I have no idea, maybe this?" It would have been "Well, I did load (whatever) into the truck, so probably from that", even if she didn't know exactly how she got the mark in the first place. That's a much more plausible "guess" answer than cigarette ash in the vehicle of two now non-smokers.

Do you follow what I'm saying? It's the same thing with the texts. You're getting brush-off answers, even if they are theoretically plausible and for the most part, provided quickly. But your gut is telling you something's not right with the answers and explanations (or lack thereof).

If you have always trusted her completely, and generally don't have trust issues, period, then trust your gut.

Going forward, press for more information if necessary. You CAN do so without appearing accusatory. If she gets defensive or starts to accuse YOU of not trusting her, it's a good sign something is up. If she truly has done nothing (for example, moved a piece of office furniture using the suv) then her mind won't even go there. Why would she assume you are asking about anything other than folding the seats down for a legitimate purpose, unless the reason was something she wanted to hide from you. People generally don't get defensive unless there's something to defend.


----------



## turnera

frustratedman said:


> Those drugs scare me and I don't want to become a zombie. The funny/sad part is I hide it all and the MC said that this comes out "sideways" when it's bottled up. Very true!


fm, when my mom died, I couldn't get over it. Six months later, I was still crying every day. So my GP put me on a mild dose of Paxil, just to lift me out of the fog. I felt no side effects whatsoever, couldn't even tell I was taking anything. But something changed in me, it somehow gave me a little bit more...purpose...to get on with things. To stop wallowing. To be more resolved to get stuff taken care of. Took it for the 3 months he prescribed it for, and then I didn't need it any more. I'd look into it.


----------



## alexm

ThePheonix said:


> My biggest defense of her is that, by your own admission, your sex life didn't change. Most women cannot stock two shelves. Did any other action in her relationship with you change? Women lie with their lips but they cannot lie with their actions. Those that possibly could would have been a hell of a lot slicker than your wife.


If it was a one-time deal with OM, why not? That's not really juggling two partners (which I agree, could be very difficult, if not impossible).

But otherwise, the sex life at home wouldn't likely change at all if it was just a one-time thing.

It's also possible that a cheating spouse and partner can only be physical on the rare occasion, maybe once or twice a month for example. Not all affair partners go at it like bunnies.

In this case, OP's wife and the OM work together, so there's no lack of time to see each other, but likely a lack of time to be physical. If the opportunity to be physical is rare, then one can certainly juggle two people at the same time.

Not saying this is the case, OP, just speaking in generalities.

I'd be concerned if my spouse and I were intimate 5 or 6 times per week and always have been, and now it's down to once or twice. In OP's case, I seem to recall him saying they're intimate only a couple of times per week as it is. No reason why she can't sneak in another once or twice with OM and nothing changes at home.

Again, not saying this is the case, but just saying it's entirely possible for somebody to do this without making a noticeable difference at home.


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## turnera

frustratedman said:


> I just don't want to destroy our family and everything we've invested and blow this up without more info!


fm, I'm asking you to be realistic about this. What you're saying is what 95% of all men say who come here with a cheating wife. It's a kneejerk reaction to scramble to save 'what they have.' And, at some point, all those men eventually come to the point where they realize that 'what they have' IS FAKE. You have a wife who PURPOSELY snuck around, lived a fake life, and lied - and continued to lie - to you...and also continued to live the life with you that YOU thought you had. 

She purposely CHOSE to live a lie, CHOSE to decide that you never needed to know she'd carried on an affair, and she was OK with you not knowing the real her. In other words, you've been living with an actress, a person who's been playing a role with you because IT SERVES HER PURPOSES to remain married to you. 

She's not there because she's mad crazy in love with you. So whatever you think is 'what you have' is a lie.

Now, that said, you can GET to that place where you have an amazing marriage. But it will require you taking a stand. Showing her what you know and telling her what it would take for you to remain married to her. And then LETTING GO of the response. In other words, it would require you saying 'if you won't be 100% honest with me, I don't want to spend the rest of my life with you.' And, if she then REFUSES to be 100% honest, to take a polygraph, maybe even to sign a post-nup, well, it's just MORE proof that 'what you have' is a lie.

Now, she may be wracked with guilt and WANTING to tell you the truth and needing you to be the man and stand up to her about it. What you have isn't all that big, so it's a fair bet that what she did was really mild, and that's good, cos you can overcome that, fix your marriage, and have an amazing marriage moving forward (by reading HNHN and other stuff). You just need to get the elephant out of the room.


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## Hicks

FM,

I would recommend individual counseling.

You are creating your own personal hell. This is a choice you are making to do this. You are driving yourself crazy tyring to fill in the pieces. 

Now, if you have a need, and your marriage is strong as you want to believe it is, and your wife did not physically cheat, your wife would want and desire to take a polygraph to prove her truthfullness. If she finds any reason to not take the poly, you MUST CONCLUDE that the reason she does not want to take it is that she is lying.

But you are not there yet? Why? Answer that and then ask yourself why you cannot then just make the conscious decision to have the courage to accept the things you cannot change.

I think you need professional help to get you through a decision in such a way that you make the choice that's right for you, you know why you made it, you accept the pros and cons of your decision, and you move on with your life with complete control and confidence of what you decided and why.


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## Acoa

My advice for what it's worth is to push through and demand that she take a lie detector test. 

I didn't, and I regret that. I was in a similar situation, and I knew based on her tone in some of my 'interrogations' that asking her to take a lie detector test would push her over an edge of sorts. She would have been angry and refused. She would have pushed it all back on my distrust of her and that I should trust her. 

Then I would have to make a choice. Would I leave her over refusal to take the lie detector? hmm. Probably not. So, asking her to take, but caving if she said no would have looked so weak I just opted to not ask. 

But reflecting back on it. I should have been willing to leave her if she refused. Let's face it, if she suspected you of something. And it was tearing her up inside. And it wasn't true, wouldn't you do anything to ease her mind? If she refuses the lie detector, it can only mean that what you fear is true (or worse), or that she just doesn't care that much about you. She would rather see you suffer with doubt and mistrust than try to aliviate your fears. 

It turned out my gut was right. But I lived with that pain and suspicion for 2 years before I found out the truth. Granted find out the truth hurt too. But no where near as much as that uncertainty that what you feel in your gut doesn't match what you are being told. When you feel like she cheated, but she claims she hasn't and you have not proof, you carry that pain, but can't resolve it. So, you need to get to the truth.


----------



## ThePheonix

nickgtg said:


> I know for me at least, when my gut tells me something it's usually right. Like I said, he can't prove anything, but most would think it means the obvious.


If that's true, you'd be hell at the dog racing track. To me, I can't ignore gut feelings but I'll never believe that is enough. On the obvious, suppose you give a neighbor a ride to the store. A condom wrapper accidentally falls from the neighbors pocket, unnoticed, between the seats and later found by your spouse. Do you want to be judged by the obvious or by what really happened


----------



## ThePheonix

alexm said:


> Again, not saying this is the case, but just saying it's entirely possible for somebody to do this without making a noticeable difference at home.


Its entirely possible but women generally lose interest in their husbands when the latch on to someone else. They may start out with duty sex in an attempt to hide their extra activity, but that usually dwindles. Its virtually impossible for her to not show something is up by changing her interaction with her husband. I'll say it again, and I believe this is what nickgtg et.al. had problems with, woman may lie with their lip but they don't lie with their actions. I just don't want this old boy to go off half coc**ed with what little he has. The evidence's done went cold on him. He's either already got the truth or he'll likely never get the truth.


----------



## alexm

ThePheonix said:


> Its entirely possible but women generally lose interest in their husbands when the latch on to someone else. They may start out with duty sex in an attempt to hide their extra activity, but that usually dwindles. Its virtually impossible for her to not show something is up by changing her interaction with her husband. I'll say it again, and I believe this is what nickgtg et.al. had problems with, woman may lie with their lip but they don't lie with their actions. I just don't want this old boy to go off half coc**ed with what little he has. The evidence's done went cold on him. He's either already got the truth or he'll likely never get the truth.


Totally agree with that last part. Like I said in my first response, it either doesn't seem like anything went on (other than crossing some boundaries that perhaps weren't set) or at the very least, no hard evidence. Personally, MY back would be up over this, but others wouldn't. It could be nothing, it could be something, and it's a ****y situation for anybody to find themselves in. Wanting the truth about something that could be nothing and not being able to accept that truth. You can go around in circles for the rest of your life, if you allow it to eat at you.

FWIW, OP's story about the suv and the seats etc. did kind of peak my interest a bit, though...

In regards to the spouse not changing at home, I lived it. In fact, there were spurts of my ex wife practically demanding sex here and there - something she never, ever did before. In fact, not a month before she left me for OM, she practically dragged me to our truck in between sets at a concert. After the next set, less than an hour later, she tried to do the same. By that time I was hot, sweaty and exhausted (from the concert and the sex...) and just wasn't into it. It was the first and only time I ever saw her that furious over anything related to sex. She barely spoke to me the rest of the night.

Of course, many people here will tell you that the cheating spouse over-compensates with the partner just as easily as they take away. It's not often that it's the same, in any case. If it's always been twice a week, you'll usually see a cheating spouse either drop that to next to nothing or ramp it up to 5 or 6 times a week. Rarely the status quo, though. I got the over compensation from my ex wife, I imagine so that I wouldn't think anything was up or that she was getting it elsewhere. I suppose it worked, I only found out about OM and how long they were seeing each other some 4-5 months after we split up.


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## OldWolf57

the back seat being down and dirt on the shirt calls for a poly.

Sorry, but this is not going away, and YOU need to tell her how it's killing you until you know the whole truth.

As long as you 2 have been together, she knows this.
She just hoping you can get pass it.


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## Chaparral

OldWolf57 said:


> the back seat being down and dirt on the shirt calls for a poly.
> 
> Sorry, but this is not going away, and YOU need to tell her how it's killing you until you know the whole truth.
> 
> As long as you 2 have been together, she knows this.
> She just hoping you can get pass it.


Here again it depends on context. Did he ask her why she put the seat down? She may have put it down and had no idea it left a mark. She may have looked at the mark and just assumed it must have come from a cigarette . 

The question should have been why did you put the seat down in the truck? 

What business is your wife in? 

Does she in fact know you are questioning if it was a physical affair?

How often was she going out with the girls, go out with coworkers for drinks after work? How about now?


----------



## just got it 55

frustratedman said:


> I've also thought about exposing his true nature to his wife/fiance. Every man knows that texting a married woman 100 times per day is simply not right. Probably too late for that. It's just a never ending roller coaster ride dammit!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Use the info to leverage the truth out of this POSOM

He's just a Playah not human

Or you could take the easy way out and waterboard him

55


----------



## frustratedman

old red said:


> "I just don't want to destroy our family and everything we've invested and blow this up without more info!"
> 
> you haven't destroyed anything;please remember that. your wife on the other hand...


I appreciate the comment! I do admit I made some mistakes and partially contributed to our marital problems but I do not accept responsibility for her affair (whether it was an EA or an EA turned into a PA).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

Chaparral said:


> I want to point out when folks come here they usually have more than you and their gut is generally right. However, men are paranoid by nature. Its a survival instinct. In a study I read about though, women's gut instinct was right 80% of the time. Unfortunately, a man's gut instinct is only right 50% of the time.
> 
> I actually think it is a good thing she was looking up emotional affair. Someone may have mentioned to her she may be falling into one and she decided to research the possibility. At what point in the timeline did she look this up.
> 
> From everything I've read here I just don't see a physical a or much of an ea either. And that isn't the way I normally see things here.


She looked up EA versus friendship back in August of 08, long before I had any idea of any of this.

The "why are we married/crappy proposal" thing happened in May of 2011. That caused me to start looking...

D-day/confrontation day #1 was August 4, 2011.

She admitted it was an EA, so I'm going to say that's indisputable... She "liked the attention" and she liked feeling needed, helping him battle depression, alcoholism, date planning, etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

alexm said:


> To me "smoking gun" is relative. It really is. One doesn't necessarily have to catch somebody red-handed to show that something's wrong. Obviously it helps to know you are in the right if the **** hits the fan, but all the same, simple evidence combined with the person circumventing questions, minimizing things and otherwise not providing solid and plausible explanations can be, and is enough for some folks. It comes down to gut instincts more often than not, with the "hard proof" only being the part that cements what you already suspect.
> 
> None of that is to say "divorce your spouse simply because something seems off", but at some point, you are owed proper explanations as well as an understanding of where you are coming from.
> 
> In the case of the suv, I would have probed further. You probably still can, though the odds are, you'll get the "I don't remember" answer.
> 
> You effectively asked what the black mark on her shirt was. She threw out a guess (and a poor one, at that) as a response. You didn't find out til later that night that the back seats had been folded down, and putting 2 and 2 together, you remembered that you also got dirty when putting the seats down previously.
> 
> So, now you pretty much know that she folded the seats down for some reason, but you don't know (and didn't ask) what that reason was. It could have been something completely innocuous - however, your wife likely would have provided that explanation to you right off the bat. "How did you get that black mark on your shirt?" "I folded the rear seats down to load (whatever) into the truck, and I must have brushed something dirty".
> 
> Instead, you got some throwaway guess response that you admittedly said didn't really make sense. Cigarette ash, after you both had quit smoking.
> 
> I'm not suggesting you handled this wrong, but... you handled this wrong. I know in the moment you're likely not thinking of what to ask next, and/or you were okay with the response. But it obviously weighed on you, especially when you realized the rear seats had been folded down later on that evening. Not all of us are born interrogators with the ability to draw information out AND not make it seem like an interrogation.
> 
> But to me, the problem seems to be that she minimizes your questions - about the suv, about the texts, etc. The answers may be quick in most cases, sometimes not. But they all seem to be the throwaway type responses that somebody gives when they're uncomfortable. In other words, the responses to your questions don't seem complete.
> 
> If she folded the seats down in the suv for a good reason, only an hour or two prior to your question about the mark on her shirt, then her response wouldn't have been basically "I have no idea, maybe this?" It would have been "Well, I did load (whatever) into the truck, so probably from that", even if she didn't know exactly how she got the mark in the first place. That's a much more plausible "guess" answer than cigarette ash in the vehicle of two now non-smokers.
> 
> Do you follow what I'm saying? It's the same thing with the texts. You're getting brush-off answers, even if they are theoretically plausible and for the most part, provided quickly. But your gut is telling you something's not right with the answers and explanations (or lack thereof).
> 
> If you have always trusted her completely, and generally don't have trust issues, period, then trust your gut.
> 
> Going forward, press for more information if necessary. You CAN do so without appearing accusatory. If she gets defensive or starts to accuse YOU of not trusting her, it's a good sign something is up. If she truly has done nothing (for example, moved a piece of office furniture using the suv) then her mind won't even go there. Why would she assume you are asking about anything other than folding the seats down for a legitimate purpose, unless the reason was something she wanted to hide from you. People generally don't get defensive unless there's something to defend.


Thanks for the insightful response, that goes for everyone.

At the time this whole SUV thing happened, I had no idea what was going on, except that things were sort of distant. The sex life was still normal (2 to 3 times per week). I'm an observative and protective person. Here's a clarification. 1. I saw the mark on her shirt. 2. That same night, I found the seatbelt thing. The seats were not actually down, however the seatbelt was stuck behind the seat, which means that it certainly looked like they may have been down previously. 3. After I discovered the text data, 3 months later, I saw the timeframes.

I just thought it was very strange that she would have texted him that early. What was so god d&&&m important to text him that early? My warped mind thinks the worst. "Hey make sure to shower before you come into work." That sort of thing...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Healer

What does your gut tell you, FM? I know what it tells me.


----------



## totalfive21

> _from frustratedman: This was well stated and thanks for posting. I'm sorry you went through physical health problems, that's a tough situation, obviously.
> 
> Did your FWH have access to make it physical? I mean could they, in theory, had physical contact? Being a guy, I almost think that's really a "beta" move. There's a "hot" woman in the picture. You've developed an emotional connection. She has "let you in" emotionally. Why, on this green earth, would the guy not go for the next natural step? How did you rule out PA and if it was PA would that have changed your decision to stay?_


The time they had at least an EA was short -- no more than 1.5 months. In going back over that time, I can think of one day when I cannot account for his whereabouts. That day makes me very suspicious. If I wanted to harass him, rake him over the coals more, demand an answer as to whether it went physical, it would be about that day. I have asked, but he denies it. So to answer your question, no, I haven't entirely ruled out a PA. What I search for now is evidence of any continued contact. Any at all. Even a random phone call initiated by the OW that he didn't return. It's the lack of honesty with me about it that I would now hold against him.


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## frustratedman

turnera said:


> fm, when my mom died, I couldn't get over it. Six months later, I was still crying every day. So my GP put me on a mild dose of Paxil, just to lift me out of the fog. I felt no side effects whatsoever, couldn't even tell I was taking anything. But something changed in me, it somehow gave me a little bit more...purpose...to get on with things. To stop wallowing. To be more resolved to get stuff taken care of. Took it for the 3 months he prescribed it for, and then I didn't need it any more. I'd look into it.


I think this may be helpful for me to take the edge off or at least see if it helps!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

alexm said:


> If it was a one-time deal with OM, why not? That's not really juggling two partners (which I agree, could be very difficult, if not impossible).
> 
> But otherwise, the sex life at home wouldn't likely change at all if it was just a one-time thing.
> 
> It's also possible that a cheating spouse and partner can only be physical on the rare occasion, maybe once or twice a month for example. Not all affair partners go at it like bunnies.
> 
> In this case, OP's wife and the OM work together, so there's no lack of time to see each other, but likely a lack of time to be physical. If the opportunity to be physical is rare, then one can certainly juggle two people at the same time.
> 
> Not saying this is the case, OP, just speaking in generalities.
> 
> I'd be concerned if my spouse and I were intimate 5 or 6 times per week and always have been, and now it's down to once or twice. In OP's case, I seem to recall him saying they're intimate only a couple of times per week as it is. No reason why she can't sneak in another once or twice with OM and nothing changes at home.
> 
> Again, not saying this is the case, but just saying it's entirely possible for somebody to do this without making a noticeable difference at home.


That's my concern also. Then, add in the fact that at one point she said "some guys only get it once a month." I posted about that previously...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

Wait, you haven't mentioned she admitted it was an ea until your post on this page, right?


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## frustratedman

turnera said:


> fm, I'm asking you to be realistic about this. What you're saying is what 95% of all men say who come here with a cheating wife. It's a kneejerk reaction to scramble to save 'what they have.' And, at some point, all those men eventually come to the point where they realize that 'what they have' IS FAKE. You have a wife who PURPOSELY snuck around, lived a fake life, and lied - and continued to lie - to you...and also continued to live the life with you that YOU thought you had.
> 
> She purposely CHOSE to live a lie, CHOSE to decide that you never needed to know she'd carried on an affair, and she was OK with you not knowing the real her. In other words, you've been living with an actress, a person who's been playing a role with you because IT SERVES HER PURPOSES to remain married to you.
> 
> She's not there because she's mad crazy in love with you. So whatever you think is 'what you have' is a lie.
> 
> Now, that said, you can GET to that place where you have an amazing marriage. But it will require you taking a stand. Showing her what you know and telling her what it would take for you to remain married to her. And then LETTING GO of the response. In other words, it would require you saying 'if you won't be 100% honest with me, I don't want to spend the rest of my life with you.' And, if she then REFUSES to be 100% honest, to take a polygraph, maybe even to sign a post-nup, well, it's just MORE proof that 'what you have' is a lie.
> 
> Now, she may be wracked with guilt and WANTING to tell you the truth and needing you to be the man and stand up to her about it. What you have isn't all that big, so it's a fair bet that what she did was really mild, and that's good, cos you can overcome that, fix your marriage, and have an amazing marriage moving forward (by reading HNHN and other stuff). You just need to get the elephant out of the room.


Oh my! I've got to get my laptop fixed because doing this over my cell phone sucks. I just typed out this big response and it was deleted lol.

So, you're right. She was living a fake life. She did make these choices and keep them secret.

I will never forget when the initial confrontation happened. She lied right to my face about not knowing his number. I brought this up on d-day #2, which was about a year after d-day 1 (previously mentioned). She responded, saying that I'll never get over it. She also said she "broke the trust of the marriage." But again stated that she never cheated, how many times do we have to go over that? I was happy to hear her say that she broke the trust because it was an acknowledgement of what damage had been done. However, this is where the beta in me came out. I told her that I would be able to get over it, if she was just honest about it and told me everything (the PA thing was a known deal breaker obviously). She said she already did tell me everything and that the fb message was wrong but she didn't think it would do any good to tell me that she told him off. Ugggh! I probably just should have walked away then... But it was the whole issue with breaking up the family etc. She immediately canceled her fb account because she didn't want me to not trust her... She still hasn't sent her fb account back up.

Ugggh i'm just annoyed with myself reading this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

just got it 55 said:


> Use the info to leverage the truth out of this POSOM
> 
> He's just a Playah not human
> 
> Or you could take the easy way out and waterboard him
> 
> 55


I've thought about calling him several times but never pulled the trigger. I figure he will just lie to me anyways. I've also fantasized about kicking his @$$. Unfortunately, he's about 8 inches taller than me and I'm 5'11". I know a lot about him…. Never met him once in person. I brought this up in IC and was basically told that if I did that he's winning because he got into my mind, etc. My IC experience just sucked! Friggin inner self, dream interpretations, quantum physics and crap like that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

Healer said:


> What does your gut tell you, FM? I know what it tells me.


So you don't think I'm crazy? Thanks lol. I know this post is probably hard to follow but my two best friends thought this notion was fairly absurd. I mean what if this jack @$$ already has an suv? So that would make this whole concept entirely irrelevant. My friend said "what if it was can u pick up coffee or donuts for the team," or something like that. Do I want to bring this up and possibly lose everything for that?

Anyhow, it was like the whole previous 3 years were kind of real, kind of fake. I just began looking back at dates, whatever cell data I had, transactions, etc. I have a good memory, which in this case, is a curse!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

Chaparral said:


> Wait, you haven't mentioned she admitted it was an ea until your post on this page, right?


Well, I guess maybe I haven't. I did, however, mention she looked up EA vs friendship. I'm really sorry for the broken nature of this post. I've never in my life been on an on line forum. Plus I'm scatter brained about the whole thing because it covers such a long period of time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ThePheonix

Frusty, it looks like you have one choice:

1. Force her into a polygraph.

2. Divorce her.

3. Live with the suspicion the rest of your life. (this craps been eating at you for several years already and it got worse)

The problem with the poly is that if she refuses, you still don't know. Also bear in mind that kicking the guys azz, whether you could or not, will not settle this thing.


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## Chaparral

frustratedman said:


> Well, I guess maybe I haven't. I did, however, mention she looked up EA vs friendship. I'm really sorry for the broken nature of this post. I've never in my life been on an on line forum. Plus I'm scatter brained about the whole thing because it covers such a long period of time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What you have added on the last page or two has changed this whole thread.


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## frustratedman

I've got one more old cell bill that I should get tomorrow. That could provide relevant info. After that, there's little left to research.

I sound like a pathetic beta.

My plan of action is to see the Dr. about a possible prescription, get IC from a C that focuses on infidelity/ptsd. Then, eventually, I will have another talk with her and be ready to walk if she doesn't want to fight to save our marriage and help me get past it.

I just again need to add that when I'm with her, things are good and my mind doesn't wander. She's truly a great person, beautiful woman and great mother who, at a minimum, crossed boundaries. Call that beta, call it what you want. Maybe it's my depression and more about me why I can't let it go because "I won't be played for a fool." Ugggh I just wish I was never in this situation to begin with!

Three damn years and I'm still not over it? Man....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tom67

Don't worry you have not hit the anger stage...yet.
You will.


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## Chaparral

You have some things to do, such as get yourself und control before you have any more convos with her so you don't blow it.

Read mmslp yet?


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## frustratedman

Chaparral said:


> You have some things to do, such as get yourself und control before you have any more convos with her so you don't blow it.
> 
> Read mmslp yet?


I haven't yet but plan on doing so!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Suspecting2014

frustratedman said:


> I've thought about calling him several times but never pulled the trigger. I figure he will just lie to me anyways. I've also fantasized about kicking his @$$. Unfortunately, he's about 8 inches taller than me and I'm 5'11". I know a lot about him…. Never met him once in person. I brought this up in IC and was basically told that if I did that he's winning because he got into my mind, etc. My IC experience just sucked! Friggin inner self, dream interpretations, quantum physics and crap like that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He is already into your mind.
Just call him and ask him, tell his wife.
If NC is for real she wont even notice, rigth? 
Ir believe they dont texted too much bc they see eachother at work
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Q tip

Suspecting2014 said:


> He is already into your mind.
> Just call him and ask him, tell his wife.
> If NC is for real she wont even notice, rigth?
> Ir believe they dont texted too much bc they see eachother at work
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Call his wife

And damn. You have not read MMSLP yet???? ,!!

If you ever do, the first few pages will explain why you're afraid to...


----------



## azteca1986

frustratedman said:


> I will never forget when the initial confrontation happened. She lied right to my face about not knowing his number. I brought this up on d-day #2, which was about a year after d-day 1 (previously mentioned). She responded, saying that I'll never get over it. She also said she *"broke the trust of the marriage."* But again stated that she never cheated, how many times do we have to go over that? I was happy to hear her say that she broke the trust because it was an acknowledgement of what damage had been done.


Surely this indicates an EA and not a PA?

When WS are confronted on DDay of a PA they often say things like: "they broke their vows", "ruined the marriage", "destroyed the marriage", etc.

A PA is so definite because there's an obvious and clear line that gets crossed. EA's are so dangerous because a friendship can imperceptibly slide into something more, even with someone where there's no physical attraction.



frustratedman said:


> I sound like a pathetic beta.


Please stop saying this. I hate to hear a good man run himself down.



> My plan of action is to see the Dr. about a possible prescription, get IC from a C that focuses on infidelity/ptsd. Then, eventually, I will have another talk with her and be ready to walk if she doesn't want to fight to save our marriage and help me get past it.
> 
> I just again need to add that when I'm with her, things are good and my mind doesn't wander. She's truly a great person, beautiful woman and great mother who, at a minimum, crossed boundaries. Call that beta, call it what you want. Maybe it's my depression and more about me why I can't let it go because "I won't be played for a fool." Ugggh I just wish I was never in this situation to begin with!
> 
> Three damn years and I'm still not over it? Man....


The visit to the doctor and the IC are good ideas, but please don't _confront_ your wife. Talk to your wife and tell her that you're still struggling with thoughts that there was more to the EA. This is perfectly reasonable for the situation you've found yourself in - *and not BETA at all*. You are having, what we'd call on this side of the pond, "a bit of a wobble". Let her help steady you.

Please give your wife the chance to prove she truly is a great person. And a remorseful wife.


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## JerryB

I just read the thread.

You saw pictures of her without her ring? And she told you she wanted to wear a fun-ring? Was the fun-ring on that finger in those pictures? I assume not. Either way, no true wife ever does that. There is only one reason. And any wife would jump on her husband for doing the same thing, and rightfully so. And this is the same person who believes in the sanctity of marriage so much that she chastises your marriage proposal?

I'm personally against going on drugs for this. Especially SSRI's. Drugging yourself to "deal" with it seems like a rug-sweeping solution. I'd rather get to the bottom of this. And I don't think you're obsessed about "little details in the past". You have caught her in lies. She has attempted to use trickle truth. She has admitted she cheated in an EA. These are valid reasons to be suspicious, and asking for a Poly test. The only reason a poly seems outrageous is because you are a Beta, or NiceGuy right now.

What I would do right now is get a VAR for her car. Then I would read MMSL and NMMNG (and get on that forum) and do a 180, or start living a real life. Slowly at first, and then with more vigor. (You don't need drugs for that!) This way you can TRULY get to a point where the idea of your marriage possibly ending won't scare you so much. You need this resolve in order to stand up for yourself.

Also, she will notice your change and start to react. She may call the OM, she may call her friends/family. "I think he knows!" is a phrase I imagine slipping out when she thinks she is alone on the phone with someone. 

And after some hard work, and if nothing new pops up on the VAR, then you may be in a better position with yourself to demand a poly test. This too should reveal some conversations in the car that the VAR would pick up.

This is a PRO-active solution. You've been living a REACTIVE life.
It's also a win-win solution for you. If you find out the worst, you'll be in a better situation to handle this. If you find out that your wife is still head over heals for you, then the work you've done on yourself will make you a better man anyway.


This plan allows you to start focusing on the now & the future. Instead of digging holes for the last 3 years to get to the rabbit killing your garden, you're now officially hunting, and flushing the game out in front of you as you move forward. Happy hunting.


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## Hicks

I agree. WHy use drugs? 
You need a counselor who can do a better job of sorting through your feelings, helping you make a decision, and gaining confidence in your decision.


----------



## alexm

frustratedman said:


> Oh my! I've got to get my laptop fixed because doing this over my cell phone sucks. I just typed out this big response and it was deleted lol.
> 
> So, you're right. She was living a fake life. She did make these choices and keep them secret.
> 
> I will never forget when the initial confrontation happened. She lied right to my face about not knowing his number. I brought this up on d-day #2, which was about a year after d-day 1 (previously mentioned). She responded, saying that I'll never get over it. She also said she "broke the trust of the marriage." But again stated that she never cheated, how many times do we have to go over that? I was happy to hear her say that she broke the trust because it was an acknowledgement of what damage had been done. However, this is where the beta in me came out. I told her that I would be able to get over it, if she was just honest about it and told me everything (the PA thing was a known deal breaker obviously). She said she already did tell me everything and that the fb message was wrong but she didn't think it would do any good to tell me that she told him off. Ugggh! I probably just should have walked away then... But it was the whole issue with breaking up the family etc. She immediately canceled her fb account because she didn't want me to not trust her... She still hasn't sent her fb account back up.
> 
> Ugggh i'm just annoyed with myself reading this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why? I get the impression that things would more or less be back to normal here if you weren't still hanging on to these things, I really do. Had you accepted her answers and moved on, you two might be on good terms at the moment. Because you're still (rightfully) paranoid and worried, she's definitely feeling that vibe, and things are strained.

FWIW, I am like you. I need absolute resolution to things. Some people are capable of accepting an answer and moving on, never to bring it up again. Some are like us, where we "accept" an answer, the other party thinks we've moved on, but we keep dwelling, especially when it doesn't make total sense.

But that's the thing - it's US who are looking for a certain response with all the details, even the things that may not be important. If we don't get the full details, good or bad, we tend to dwell.

So... at this point in time, you are considering whether or not this relationship should continue, regardless of the answers you have received (or not received). Whether she did anything with OM or not doesn't really seem to make all that much difference with whether you stay or you go, correct?

Say you leave, you will still be in the dark about all of this. If you stay, same thing, but it's more difficult to live with someone whom you suspect of having done something.

I see only one option, really. Sit her down, at some point when it's just the two of you, no kids, nowhere to go for a couple of hours, and neither of you is tired, etc.

You tell her straight up - you are considering leaving this marriage and starting fresh as you feel that it has become stale and that you don't feel as though you are the husband she wants (as evidenced by a few things, such as the proposal, as well as the admitted EA with the OM). I don't care how beta it sounds, you can tell her you don't feel like a man with her. She's previously sought out somebody else to fill emotional voids in her life. Your sex life has dwindled and she's telling you some men only get it once a month. That sort of thing.

This, I presume, is more or less how you feel at the moment, correct?

Now here's the thing - this may hit her right in the heart, to the point where she will re-evaluate how she has treated you/acted within the marriage. It may be her "oh ****" moment. It also may not. If she agrees with you, then at least you're somewhat on the same page and the two of you can decide how to proceed.

If this is the moment where she says "oh my god, I don't want to lose him, I didn't realize it was that serious" then there's your chance to take care of a number of things:

- get back on the same page as her and start fresh
- re-affirm the love each of you has had for each other
- GET THE TRUTH

The first two things are the most important, obviously. But for the third, it would likely be your biggest and last chance.

If she doesn't want to lose you and she realizes the seriousness of this issue, she will definitely be more willing to come clean (if there's anything to come clean about).

You can tell her, if you're comfortable, that in order to start again and get back to the way you two used to be, that you need a clean slate. This marriage starts now, today, fresh. And that starts with the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Make this one of your provisions in starting again. You need to be able to trust her fully, just as she does you. Tell her that her responses don't matter, even if that's not completely true. If she had more than an EA, then you can deal because today is a new day. But you need the FULL truth from her, because in order for this marriage to go back to what it was, to work going forward, you need to know what happened between her and the OM - if not for trust purposes, but because she STILL WORKS WITH THE GUY.

Bottom line, if this is her wake-up call, and you are important to her, she will fight for you, which also means she is more likely to spill whatever beans there are.

I've been through this ringer before (thankfully there were no kids involved) and I didn't act in the way I should have and everything imploded. I kept a lot inside, *****ed and moaned elsewhere, let things slide. If this ever happens to me again, I won't be afraid to threaten divorce.

Who knows? Had I not let my ex wife stonewall and gaslight me, she may not have checked out. We used to be good together, then things went in eerily the same direction your marriage went. It's slow at first, but it picked up speed quickly, and BAM, done. She got away with seemingly innocuous things at first, then pushed the envelope further and further. And why not? I basically allowed it. Just accepted her words and blindly trusted her. In the end, it doesn't matter, she's the one who stepped out, rather than communicate with me about what she was missing and what I could do about it. And perhaps I didn't feel she was worth fighting for.

But nonetheless, I was in the same boat you are now. I could have put a stop to it. She could have realized "oh my god, what am I doing?". It could have strengthened our relationship. None of those things happened. I didn't give her any reason to have a come-to-jesus moment, nor did I do anything to prove that I was worth fighting for. I just accepted her responses and continued to trust, and she probably got to the point where she thought "what an idiot" and no longer had any respect for me. It doesn't excuse her behavior or actions, but had I acted differently, it could have been a turning point in our marriage and we could have lived happily ever after. To this day, I don't believe she is a stereotypical "cheater", somebody who will continually do this over and over again. What I do believe about her is that she is incapable of proper communication - as was I at that time - and neither of us was able to properly communicate to the other what we required in the marriage from each other. Am I excusing her behavior? Hell no. But I'm not excusing mine, either. I didn't do all *I* could have to make her feel important, or to keep our marriage going.


----------



## turnera

JerryB said:


> I'm personally against going on drugs for this. Especially SSRI's. Drugging yourself to "deal" with it seems like a rug-sweeping solution. I'd rather get to the bottom of this.


I disagree. Professionals, who know what they're talking about, very often prescribe a temporary bout of ADs is not 'drugging yourself' - it's helping your body replace missing chemicals that have been rubbed out by long-term stress and kick-starting your body to start producing its own again. Thus, the word temporary. And, as I said, you CAN take drugs that don't turn you into a zombie or even show side effects. All it does is help you avoid the paralysis many BSs feel, and chose action to get things fixed.


----------



## aug

If you do have a talk, I suggest you give her some time to consider your position before she decides. I would give her a week or 2, but not too long.


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## sammy3

Op, 

Im 3.4 years out from my h affair. I'm still trying to put pieces together to help me understand. Help me make a decision to stay or to leave. To trust or to walk away. My marriage is completely broken, and this is coming from what was thought to a good loving stable long term marriage. 

I've been to many different counselor throughout it all. Some good some not. This last counselor seem to really nail it...

Rough and tough as she was, in her deep baritone voice stated to me point blank, "Honey, there is only one decision to make, can you be married to someone who cheated?" 

I walked out of her office and the reality is, it's the truth... 
all our details are different, but sleeping with another person in a marriage, or falling in love with another is a reality that changes the marriage, the people... & it really does come down to, can you? 

~sammy


----------



## frustratedman

Well... I'm back. So I got that cell phone bill mailed to me (in August) and there was no damning evidence. I thought things were going pretty well but in mid January, her grandpa passed away. She was EXTREMELY close with him. He pretty much served as her father figure when she was growing up. Since then, she's slowly become cold. Last Monday, we had a blow out and didn't talk the entire week. We finally talked on Friday (two days ago). I've been sleeping alone and there has been no physical contact. She's lashing out at me, re-hashing all the issues that we've already gone through. It's like she's no longer into me. She is, however, going to IC this week so I am giving her space. She says she needs to sort her feelings out. She hasn't gone to IC for years so this is something new.

I'm trying to hang tough but deep down, I'm dying inside. In doing so, I started wondering if there's any more funny business going on. So I reviewed the cell bill (back to my old tricks). What I found concerned me. It wasn't the same number as before but there's a number showing up a few times a month. Ironically, it's very similar to my number. I've tried reverse look up through several sites to no avail. I never get a chance to have access to her phone, except a minute here or there. I did a spotlight search (iphone 5c) and the number isn't in her contacts. I badly want to ask her but also want to do my re-con before doing so.

The odd part is that she got some inheritance money and she booked a family trip for us to go to Vegas at the end of March. She did this after the blowout. Weird, eh? Uggggh. I'm about to lose it.

I guess I will suffer through the week, focus on myself and the boys and go from there...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

I think I need to start IC as well, with a male who focuses on infidelity. I'm afraid that this is the beginning of the end. Now she's got the upper hand financially. I will not get to live with my boys. I'm feeling defeated, big time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

By the way, sorry this is written so sporadically. I have to do this on my phone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

Another point I forgot to mention. A pair of tickets to a concert fell into my lap. She isn't into the band and didn't want to go. Strangely, the night I was gone, boom a 1 hour call to the mystery number.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

Another thing I forgot to mention, when I said there was a blowout, it was her lashing out at me. It was all because I said if I take time off work, I'd rather do it when she's off. I thought it would be sweet but she apparently found it beta/dependent.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tobyboy

Try namefromphone.com on the new number. 

When did the calls begin? When her grandpa died?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dogbert

A broken marriage where you, the BH, is still being haunted by what she did. A WW who shows no remorse and refuses to help heal the marriage. Love has died and so has respect.

Perhaps you should consider talking with your wife about ending the marriage as amicably as possible for the benefit of your children's well being.


----------



## Chaparral

You didn't read mmslp did you?

You didn't get the vars did you?

Can you think of anything you did you were advised tO do?


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## Chaparral

Either buy a burner phone or get a woman friend/ relative to call the number and say Trey?

The reason she's gone cold is its gone physical or she can't tolerate ha in to wear the pants in the family.


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## justastatistic

There is an app out there that lets you call a cell number and it will go straight to voicemail without ringing the phone. You might be able to use that to hear the voicemail greeting and if you're lucky the owners name will be on it.

EDIT: It's called slydial


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## frustratedman

*I did read mmslp. I didn't do the vars.*



Chaparral said:


> You didn't read mmslp did you?
> 
> You didn't get the vars did you?
> 
> Can you think of anything you did you were advised tO do?


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

I did read mmslp. I didn't do the vars. I thought things were going well. Guess not! However, finally she emailed me today. She explained that she's not happy with herself and thanked me for giving her space.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

Thanks for reading and chipping in your 2 cents everyone. I come here not only for advice and also because it's therapeutic. I did check out that reverse phone lookup. Sounds legit but 95 bucks is a chunk of change.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

frustratedman said:


> I did read mmslp.
> 
> She explained that she's not happy with herself and thanked me for giving her space.


I beg to disagree. You did NOT read the book. Or you would not have tolerated her explanation.


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## frustratedman

Bottom line, I will find out about this number. If it's the same old db, I'm absolutely done. I don't care how long it takes or how much money I will lose. It's not worth it to stay with someone who has crossed the line this far.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

I read the book. Let me give you a couple examples to prove it. Atol talked about the importance of working out, sperm being kind of like a football team (sorry to be graphic) and about being combination of alpha and beta. I'm going to read it again starting tonight because it apparently hasn't sunk in enough. I have been working out pretty consistently. I'm in great shape right now. Anyhow, off to baseball practice with my 15 year old.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Unfortunately, you read the book as a typical male: DO stuff, BE stuff, SHOW stuff.

Not LEARN stuff.


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## wmn1

what do you mean you 'gave her space' ? That is cheaters script. 

You rugswept the affair, get into arguments, let her keep the job, gave her 'space' and never found out the turth and listened to a biased marriage counselor.

You need to figure out if you are really doing an adequate job defending yourllef.

What do you mean you 'gave her space' ???? Explain


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## Q tip

frustratedman said:


> I read the book. Let me give you a couple examples to prove it. Atol talked about the importance of working out, sperm being kind of like a football team (sorry to be graphic) and about being combination of alpha and beta. I'm going to read it again starting tonight because it apparently hasn't sunk in enough. I have been working out pretty consistently. I'm in great shape right now. Anyhow, off to baseball practice with my 15 year old.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I mentioned this elsewhere. Reading comprehension is required. 

Tell what you read, reread, understand and how what you've learned helped the situation. 

What was meant by what Athol wrote. The takeaway if you will. It's Not about Spermbanks, dude.


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## BobSimmons

I see a lot of posters being turned into Frustrated people. 

Can't drag a horse to the water..or is it a camel?


----------



## Shoshannah

BobSimmons said:


> I see a lot of posters being turned into Frustrated people.
> 
> Can't drag a horse to the water..or is it a camel?


 I've been through something similar, devastatedandlost. It sounds like you are a great husband and father. Remember that when dealing with your wife. She would be stupid to lose you and would regret it in the long run. But she sounds very selfish. Hang in there.


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## nuclearnightmare

frustrated man:

I have no desire to bash you. even if I wanted to I could never compete with your wife in that regard. in the emotional/psychological sense, she is decimating you. someone had said that you were "torturing yourself" regarding your inability to get solid proof that she physically cheated on you. just move on with her etc. well, you are NOT torturing yourself, she is torturing you!

my take is that you have "plenty of smoke" indicating the "fire" (i.e. that she let her alcoholic coworker F*%*ck her, most likely repeatedly). I think the bottom line is that a husband should not ask his wife to treat him with respect, he should demand it (yes works both ways but OP is a man....work with me people). her playing the office slvt for 3 or so years, but evading your solid evidence gathering nonetheless, is more disrespect than many (better) women would show their husbands in three lifetimes.

I think you think she's a liar and a cheat. tell her that's what you think, but if she can pass a polygraph you could be convinced otherwise. If she refuses to take one, tell her you take that no other way than her confession of adultery. then figure out a way to divorce her.

when either of your son's ask why the family broke up just tell them 'cause their mom had sex with other men, and hold to that 'til your last day on earth., regardless of what your Ex tells them.


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## frustratedman

Well, I've got a lot to say... And thanks to everyone who bashed me. I truly deserve it and it's helped me a lot the last few days.

First of all, I DID read MMSLP back in August. But, I didn't DO everything it recommended (as you fine folks have graciously pointed out). I actually read it again over the last couple nights. Upon reading it again, I've discovered that there were things I implemented and things I unfortunately didn't. I did work out hard and still do. I'm in awesome shape. I did try to bring out my alpha more. But, I've been basically devaluing my sex rank. I've been holding her up on a pedestal and under valuing myself. I haven't been confident enough and I think that I've been catering to her needs but forgetting about my own needs. She feels like she's got me under her thumb and there is no challenge. She does, or at least she did...

Her grandpa/father figure passed away in mid January. This was very traumatic for her and my kids. I've been trying extra hard to pay attention to her, help more with chores, be there to support her, etc. In doing so, my lame @$$ was smothering her and she took it to me being needy. Combine that with PMS and she freaked out last Monday (10 days ago) and asked for space for her to figure out her feelings. The first week (last week) I gave her the silent treatment because I was angry, but yet, deep down, I was afraid of losing her. I know, right? Messed up... Rewarding her for her previous awesome behavior and again devaluing myself. I've been in the house but in a separate room. I don't have the dough to stay at a hotel. It's actually worked out well because I've been helping my son with baseball practice every single night anyhow.

I discovered that the mystery phone number in question is family. Once I realized that there doesn't appear to be a threat in regards to fidelity, after reading people's posts on this thread, after re-reading MMSLP and after doing some serious soul searching, I believe that the lightbulb has finally went off. Even if we divorce, I will have a life. It may be miserable for a long time financially but it will have it's own benefits. I CAN and WILL find a woman who will love me, even if it takes time. My kids may suffer in the beginning but when they grow up and we talk years down the road, they will understand. It will CRUSH me to not be with them every day/night for a long time and the divorce would be an absolute $#!t show. My family and hers will be shocked. I haven't spoken a word about this to my folks and they are quite close with my wife.

So, what I've been doing is giving her the space she has requested and in doing so, it's given me space to sort out my own crap. She went to her first session of therapy today. Since I've been so confident and taking care of myself, it seems like she's becoming more attracted to me. I really haven't given her much of anything except talk about logistics, bills, etc. After the hell I've gone through, I'm damn near ready to go all in and demand what I need from her. You give me what I need and if it complies with my demands then we can talk about the future. If you don't want me, it's time to go our separate ways... If it's anyone who should be fighting for anyone, she should be fighting for me. I'm worth it. I'm a great person and a great father.

To be honest, after re-reading this entire thread, after my last posts in August, I didn't do much. Didn't go to counselling, my negative thoughts subsided for the most part and life kind of just went on. I'm a busy guy with a full time job 1.5 hours commuting, 2 kids who are growing, etc. It felt like things were 90% good. In the end, her lashing out was a good thing. I definitely think she has a lot on her mind and also think she might have some early menopause or hormonal thing going on. Maybe guilt is eating at her. I have no clue and realize that I can only control myself and can't force anything on her.

I'm considering IC but at the moment I'm feeling pretty damn good. The biggest short term dilemma now is that she booked this trip to Vegas for our family in just a couple weeks. We live in a cold climate and the kids have spring break. If we're still at this weird stage I don't know that I even want to go. Don't get me wrong I'd love to bask in some sunlight but I don't want to go on a trip and put on a fake smiley face for my kids. Speaking of which, it's strange that my older son hasn't picked up on anything like me being in a separate bedroom, lack of affection between his parents, etc. Must be good timing with all the baseball business.

Bottom line - thanks to all you TAMers out there. This issue is far from resolved but if nothing else, it's been an awakening! You may think I'm a weak pathetic beta and there may be truth to that. Either way, thank you and I'll be sure to keep everyone updated.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

Two more points I forgot:

When I say "bashing," maybe a better way of saying it would be calling me out. I realize that there are many perspectives on this site. Some people have gone through hell and always think worst case scenario. Others are more level headed. There is a wide spectrum.

Regarding my wife, today, she emailed me at work and apologized for not supporting my music over the years. Not to "toot my own horn," but I'm a pretty damn good musician/singer/songwriter. She's never appreciated it or supported it. She said she doesn't know what it's like to have a passion for any sort of hobby/interest, which is true. I thanked her for the apology but it's weird. It's like "business only/space but I get to talk about our relationship and you don't?" I don't understand... I kind of feel sad for her since she's right. She really doesn't have any major hobbies or interests. I think this is a bit of a mid-life crisis type of situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BobSimmons

You're a nice guy.

Go and read No More Mr Nice guy.

It might cure your niceness.


----------



## LongWalk

Buy a nice skip rope. Take to your boy's baseball games and get in a good workout when the action is slow.

When you think about your wife's certain EA, probable PA, skip rope and write song lyrics. Sad that she doesn't have any hobbies.

What kind of music do you write?

There was a musician on TAM who wrote a pretty good song about his cheating wife Aaron was his name IRL. His ex, a bar tender/waitress, slept with a biker cocaine dealer. She never got her shyte together. Your troubles a pretty mild. He was kicked off TAM because his anger came out online.


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## frustratedman

BobSimmons said:


> You're a nice guy.
> 
> Go and read No More Mr Nice guy.
> 
> It might cure your niceness.


Thanks & will do!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

LongWalk said:


> Buy a nice skip rope. Take to your boy's baseball games and get in a good workout when the action is slow.
> 
> When you think about your wife's certain EA, probable PA, skip rope and write song lyrics. Sad that she doesn't have any hobbies.
> 
> What kind of music do you write?
> 
> There was a musician on TAM who wrote a pretty good song about his cheating wife Aaron was his name IRL. His ex, a bar tender/waitress, slept with a biker cocaine dealer. She never got her shyte together. Your troubles a pretty mild. He was kicked off TAM because his anger came out online.


Hmmmm... What kind of music you ask? Lately, since I'm not playing in a band, it's acoustic guitar stuff. I have an eclectic taste in music. The last song I wrote might have been in the same realm as Ray Lamontagne perhaps.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forest

frustratedman said:


> Hmmmm... I have an eclectic taste in music. The last song I wrote might have been in the same realm as Ray Lamontagne perhaps.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Can you pull off the Roy Buchanan material? Women love a tortured genius.


----------



## happyman64

Frustrated

Don't you dare back out on the family trip to Vegas.

That is a cop out.

You go. You be the man. You be the father. You show your kids the best time of their lives.

Surprise them With some events like Red Rock Canyon at sunset. Or Hoover Dam earlier in the day.

And ask your wife to join you as a family.

If she wants space then go hang at the pool, swim, laugh and soak up some sun.

There is no reason not to go.

HM


----------



## turnera

frustratedman said:


> I haven't been confident enough and I think that I've been catering to her needs but forgetting about my own needs.
> 
> I've been trying extra hard to pay attention to her, help more with chores, be there to support her, etc. In doing so, my lame @$$ was smothering her
> 
> The first week (last week) I gave her the silent treatment because I was angry, but yet, deep down, I was afraid of losing her.
> 
> Since I've been so confident and taking care of myself, it seems like she's becoming more attracted to me.
> 
> I didn't do much. Didn't go to counselling, my negative thoughts subsided for the most part and life kind of just went on.
> I'm considering IC but at the moment I'm feeling pretty damn good. The biggest short term dilemma now is that she booked this trip to Vegas for our family in just a couple weeks. We live in a cold climate and the kids have spring break. If we're still at this weird stage I don't know that I even want to go. Don't get me wrong I'd love to bask in some sunlight but I don't want to go on a trip and put on a fake smiley face for my kids.


Just the fact that you feel you have to put on a smiley face means you could use IC. You're faking it til you make it. But that doesn't change the thought processes.

And you should go on the trip. Good practice. And you can go do your own thing when you're feeling stressed.

And don't bet that your kids don't notice. They just say nothing because YOU say nothing.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Frustrated:

your last 2-3 posts indicate less frustration, greater confidence and greater self-awareness IMO. and you said this - 

"I'm considering IC but at the moment I'm feeling pretty damn good." I notice that you say this in conjunction with a very serious consideration toward divorce. a few posts ago, when you seemed much more afraid of losing her, you remarked that you were "dying inside."

are you seeing the correlation here? I think you now know what you need to do. recognizing the need for drastic change in one's life requires courage. I think you've got a lot of that; much more than you imagined probably.

as for the family trip. I don't quite get it. is she expecting you to continue to give her "space" while on this trip??? what is she thinking?? now she's got us both confused!


----------



## nuclearnightmare

frustratedman said:


> Two more points I forgot:
> 
> When I say "bashing," maybe a better way of saying it would be calling me out. I realize that there are many perspectives on this site. Some people have gone through hell and always think worst case scenario. Others are more level headed. There is a wide spectrum.
> 
> Regarding my wife, today, she emailed me at work and apologized for not supporting my music over the years. Not to "toot my own horn," but I'm a pretty damn good musician/singer/songwriter. She's never appreciated it or supported it. She said she doesn't know what it's like to have a passion for any sort of hobby/interest, which is true. I thanked her for the apology but it's weird. It's like "business only/space but I get to talk about our relationship and you don't?" I don't understand... I kind of feel sad for her since she's right. She really doesn't have any major hobbies or interests. I think this is a bit of a mid-life crisis type of situation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



how about this for an answer to her. "thanks hon. I'll file that in the 'too little, too late' category. but I do appreciate the thought"
no follow up comments whatsoever of course, even if she responds back....

gee its fun for us anonymous advisors of yours to feed you material! anyway you can thank me later


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## frustratedman

nuclearnightmare said:


> Frustrated:
> 
> your last 2-3 posts indicate less frustration, greater confidence and greater self-awareness IMO. and you said this -
> 
> "I'm considering IC but at the moment I'm feeling pretty damn good." I notice that you say this in conjunction with a very serious consideration toward divorce. a few posts ago, when you seemed much more afraid of losing her, you remarked that you were "dying inside."
> 
> are you seeing the correlation here? I think you now know what you need to do. recognizing the need for drastic change in one's life requires courage. I think you've got a lot of that; much more than you imagined probably.
> 
> as for the family trip. I don't quite get it. is she expecting you to continue to give her "space" while on this trip??? what is she thinking?? now she's got us both confused!



Well, for an update I was absolutely drained today. Last night after yet another hour of intense baseball practice, I decided to go to the gym to continue with my work out regiment. Unfortunately, I took pre-lift at 10:15. I was up until 3:30 am, then had to wake up for work at 6:30 am. Lesson learned! I'm dead tired. There will be no baseball tonight. I've been burning both ends of the candle too much. Anyhow, today she emailed me to see if I wanted to get coffee so we could talk. I replied that tonight's just not a good night for that. I have no idea what she wants to say. This is after her first IC session. It was empowering to say no. I was going to maybe swing by a book store and pick up "No more Mr. Nice Guy," on my way home but I might have to wait for that.

I've also thought of contacting POSOM but I just know he won't talk or respond. Even if he did, it would probably be a load of BS.

Anyhow, I'll keep the updates coming and thanks as always!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## G.J.

> I've also thought of contacting POSOM but I just know he won't talk or respond. Even if he did, it would probably be a load of BS.


Is she still working at the same place with the guy sorry if I missed it if so ?

If he is and you want to stay with her then why she's still working there I don't understand

You needed to spell it out to her that a Poly is needed as you want to see if its worth staying in the marriage if she's lying as its the lying that gets to you not a PA - yes I know it would be the PA if there was one but hey lie to her


----------



## frustratedman

G.J. said:


> Is she still working at the same place with the guy sorry if I missed it if so ?
> 
> If he is and you want to stay with her then why she's still working there I don't understand
> 
> You needed to spell it out to her that a Poly is needed as you want to see if its worth staying in the marriage if she's lying as its the lying that gets to you not a PA - yes I know it would be the PA if there was one but hey lie to her


Yes - she still works at the same place with him. Yes - I've considered the poly. Yes - I didn't force her to leave, as I wasn't aware of all this infidelity stuff at the time. I was following the recommendations of our "don't play old tapes" and "move forward" counsellor. It's all mentioned in previous posts but I know the format is scatter-brained and probably hard to follow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## G.J.

frustratedman said:


> Yes - she still works at the same place with him. Yes - I've considered the poly. Yes - I didn't force her to leave, as I wasn't aware of all this infidelity stuff at the time. I was following the recommendations of our "don't play old tapes" and "move forward" counsellor. It's all mentioned in previous posts but I know the format is scatter-brained and probably hard to follow.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So have you worked out a short term plan that will enable a possible long term solution ?

If so what is it ?

We can give you input if you let us know what your looking for long term


----------



## LongWalk

Although there were red flags, there is a range of possible interpretation:

1) Worst case – your wife had a pretty long PA maybe not the entire three years (2008 – 2011) but several months, until she broke it off out of guilt or fear. She may also have lost interest in him.

2) EA with some physical contact short of intercourse. Although a TAM truism is that EA between adults don't last because the clothes come off quickly, it is possible if unlikely.

If you can go back and re-read your thread, you may find HappyMan's advice useful. He is urging you to put this behind you, not to forget it, but to accept the ambiguity that life presents us. From time to time we bite into something and discover something unpleasant, a fragment of bone in a burger, for example. We can chuck it the waste basket or keep eating. Chewing gingerly sort of kills the enjoyment of eating.

Your wife seems like a decent person. She feels guilty but you cannot waterboard her to extract a confession. It seems as if she is willing to redouble her efforts in your marriage. Why not go for it and try and match her? 

You've learnt a lot. You are no longer a dupe and your wife knows that you never really accepted her account of what happened. Forgiveness is not blindness or rugsweeping. Not only will you not accept cheating, you won't accept a half-azzed marriage from either her side or yours. That is empowering.

If your wife is going into menopause, maybe she should consider hormone replacement therapy.


----------



## wmn1

frustratedman said:


> Bottom line, I will find out about this number. If it's the same old db, I'm absolutely done. I don't care how long it takes or how much money I will lose. It's not worth it to stay with someone who has crossed the line this far.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


space is never the answer. Good job in manning up. be strong and vigilant. It's not an easy process but you deserve better


----------



## Archangel2

frustratedman said:


> I've also thought of contacting POSOM but I just know he won't talk or respond. Even if he did, it would probably be a load of BS.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Frustrated - If you still want to get to the bottom of her relationship with OM, perhaps you can use some creative bluffing. Try to encounter him face to face. As calmly as possible, tell him your wife confessed to a PA and was with him x times ( where x is some number between 3 and 7). Show him the evidence of that one morning you talked about in an earlier post.He might panic and say it was only once or some smaller number, but at least you would get your truth.

It's your call. But I wish you the best of luck.


.


----------



## frustratedman

Thanks for chiming in, people! Oh my... I've downloaded "No More Mr. Nice Guy," and just read the first chapter. I'm the poster child for this book. Had to stop reading it because I need to establish my support team or whatever you want to call it. Just another reason why I really need to find a solid, male counsellor at once.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

And just think how great your marriage would be if:

A. You took her for granted less ( one less baseball night for a date night)

B. And she stopped giving dating advice/EA behavior with the loser at work

You two need to communicate with each other honestly.

Think about it.


----------



## frustratedman

Just wanted to clarify the post above. I'm still feeling good about myself and I'm standing firm, but overall, IC can only help at this point. Tunera pointed this out as well. That first chapter is eye opening and it seems like it's serious business. It's just another way of trying to take care of myself. Happy Friday!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

happyman64 said:


> And just think how great your marriage would be if:
> 
> A. You took her for granted less ( one less baseball night for a date night)
> 
> B. And she stopped giving dating advice/EA behavior with the loser at work
> 
> You two need to communicate with each other honestly.
> 
> Think about it.


Happyman - Thanks for your replies through this all. It means a lot. You are, in my opinion, a voice of reason and positivity. I believe the EA has been done for a long time, unless the whole thing has gone extremely under ground. I do think about that occassionally. If it comes out that it is still going on, after all this time, I believe I would be done.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

Good.

You have your eyes open.

And I think the EA is over too!

Be positive. Turnera has great intuition. Listen to her.

And have a great weekend.


----------



## frustratedman

Well, for whatever it's worth, here are the updates.

We're still doing the "space" thing. I'm still in my room, she's in hers (ours). Right as I was typing this, my 15 year old came in and asked why I wasn't sleeping with my wife. I gave him a lame excuse. Maybe I should tell him the truth but I don't want to mess him up during baseball tryouts this week.

I finished "No More Mr. Nice Guy," and think I took a lot of good things from it. A lot of it was really stuff I was doing.

I've reached out to a male counselor and we're working on scheduling a time for me to get in.

My wife has emailed me a few times, explaining that her intention isn't to hurt me or the family. She has her 2nd counseling session tomorrow.

Vegas trip is still on for next week. That should be interesting.

I'm definitely not being clingy or needy. I'm living my life and doing what I want to do. Bought myself some clothes, working out, etc. I've really come to accept that there is a realistic chance that things may be over.

Ultimately, we both caused harm in our marriage. I think that her EA (possible PA) still lies deep within my subconcious. That may have been acted upon in wrong ways, like me putting her on a pedestal and trying to do too many nice things, etc. She feels pressured and smothered, like there are "strings attached," as pointed out in NMMNG.

Day by day...

Goodnight!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

frustratedman said:


> Well, for whatever it's worth, here are the updates.
> 
> We're still doing the "space" thing. I'm still in my room, she's in hers (ours). Right as I was typing this, my 15 year old came in and asked why I wasn't sleeping with my wife. I gave him a lame excuse. Maybe I should tell him the truth but I don't want to mess him up during baseball tryouts this week.
> 
> I finished "No More Mr. Nice Guy," and think I took a lot of good things from it. A lot of it was really stuff I was doing.
> 
> I've reached out to a male counselor and we're working on scheduling a time for me to get in.
> 
> My wife has emailed me a few times, explaining that her intention isn't to hurt me or the family. She has her 2nd counseling session tomorrow.
> 
> Vegas trip is still on for next week. That should be interesting.
> 
> I'm definitely not being clingy or needy. I'm living my life and doing what I want to do. Bought myself some clothes, working out, etc. I've really come to accept that there is a realistic chance that things may be over.
> 
> Ultimately, we both caused harm in our marriage. I think that her EA (possible PA) still lies deep within my subconcious. That may have been acted upon in wrong ways, like me putting her on a pedestal and trying to do too many nice things, etc. She feels pressured and smothered, like there are "strings attached," as pointed out in NMMNG.
> 
> Day by day...
> 
> Goodnight!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So if her intent is not to hurt you or your family what are her intentions?

Just how long will you live in limbo?

And when will you decide what you want from your wife and marriage, then go for it?

You do know your wife belongs in the guest room don't cha?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

What did she want to talk to you about after her first IC session?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

We didn't talk right after her first session. She feels most safe communicating over email so she can get her thoughts out clearly without getting angry. She has emailed me a couple times. She said she appreciates the space and thinks I'm more calm and confident as well. She's trying to sort through her feelings. As to a timeline, she says for now she just wants to get through this week, as our son has baseball tryouts, and then we go on our family trip in a week. I'm figuring we should come to some sort of resolution by the time we go on the trip. It's been just over 2 weeks this has been going on, so in a 15 year marriage that really isn't that much time. I haven't demanded anything and have just been taking care of myself.

I think I will ask her to sleep in the guest room. The bed sucks. My back is starting to get sore...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

I was just curious because she wanted to have coffee and talk after her first session.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

Funny you say that. I thoght the exact same thing! It's like "before you wanted to talk in person, now only email?"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

But actually, she has a valid point. She's much better at staying on topic when she's writing. However, obviously we will need to be able to talk IF we both agree to continue with the marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

Hope you two get good communication going and she comes clean with whatever.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

She really does need to get the hell away from her AP. That is driving a wedge.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

frustratedman said:


> I think I will ask her to sleep in the guest room. The bed sucks. My back is starting to get sore...


A graduate of the School Of No More Mr Nice Guy wouldn't ask her. He would just inform her he's tired of sleeping in a substandard bed and he's moving back to the bedroom, and if she doesn't want to be near him, she's welcome to move herSELF over to the guest bed.


----------



## G.J.

turnera said:


> A graduate of the School Of No More Mr Nice Guy wouldn't ask her. He would just inform her he's tired of sleeping in a substandard bed and he's moving back to the bedroom, and if she doesn't want to be near him, she's welcome to move herSELF over to the guest bed.


:iagree:

Come on take the *frustrated* out of your online name and leave the *man*


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## Archangel2

Archangel2 said:


> Frustrated - If you still want to get to the bottom of her relationship with OM, perhaps you can use some creative bluffing. Try to encounter him face to face. As calmly as possible, tell him your wife confessed to a PA and was with him x times ( where x is some number between 3 and 7). Show him the evidence of that one morning you talked about in an earlier post.He might panic and say it was only once or some smaller number, but at least you would get your truth.
> 
> It's your call. But I wish you the best of luck.
> 
> 
> .


Frustrated - I saw something today on another website which made me think of you.

A betrayed husband who suspected his wife was having a PA took an empty manila envelope to the OM's house and confronted him in front of his family. He said he had the proof in the envelope and would give it to the OM's wife if he did not confess. The OM confessed to 3 hook-ups with the betrayed husband's wife. I don't know how a good of a poker player you are...

Hope you are doing well.


----------



## frustratedman

Well, I'm in Vegas, so things are good at the moment; this trip has been a blast! No major updates. Things seem to be good with us for now.

I will begin IC when I get back home. She's had two sessions so far. We haven't had any super serious discussions but things seem well.

I feel like MMSLP and NMMNG have helped and I've been applying those things into who I am. I do think NMMNG had some weird stuff (especially the 2nd half), so I'm trying to take from the good parts. I'm going to continue working on me and take the approach that I trust myself enough to carry on with or without her.

As for her old EA (possible PA), from 3 years ago, that hasn't been brought up. I definitely don't think it's still going on. I'm going to get things off my chest in IC and see what this new male counselor has to say.

Thanks again for everyone's responses and suggestions! This place has been really helpful and it's nice that people truly care.

I will keep this thread updated if there are any developments.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

By the way, Archangel2, I don't exactly know if POSOM ever got married or not. She probably realized what a piece of $#!t he is and got out. I've tried to look on the web but have found nothing. I guess my whole thought on that is that I don't want any interaction with him, unless it's to tell him to f off. If I communicate with him at this point, 3.5 years later, I'm not so sure how effective it would be. Now if I find out anything is currently going on, which I doubt, that's a different story.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Have you tried using the NMMNG forum? They might be good for keeping you in the moment, they'll have more experience practicing the 'good stuff.'


----------



## Archangel2

frustratedman said:


> By the way, Archangel2, I don't exactly know if POSOM ever got married or not. She probably realized what a piece of $#!t he is and got out. I've tried to look on the web but have found nothing. I guess my whole thought on that is that I don't want any interaction with him, unless it's to tell him to f off. If I communicate with him at this point, 3.5 years later, I'm not so sure how effective it would be. Now if I find out anything is currently going on, which I doubt, that's a different story.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Frustrated - I respect your decision to not confront POSOM. I only suggested some long shot strategies because early on in your thread, you felt that you had not gotten the whole truth from your wife. I wish you peace and strength.


----------



## Archangel2

ConanHub said:


> She really does need to get the hell away from her AP. That is driving a wedge.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:

I think it goes without saying that if POSOM is in daily contact with her at work, one of them has to go!


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## Chaparral

Just looked back through here and still do not see where a VAR was ever used to see what she is really doing.

I think this is a crucial mistake. A gps on her car is necessary too.

Unfortunately this may be one of the long term affair threads.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER

Chaparral said:


> Just looked back through here and still do not see where a VAR was ever used to see what she is really doing.
> 
> I think this is a crucial mistake. A gps on her car is necessary too.
> 
> Unfortunately this may be one of the long term affair threads.


Another case of a BS just waiting for the WS to come around. Maybe if I give her a little more time, she'll snap out of it camp of thought.

Even if this OM were to break it off with her Today, you know that there will be a new OM in the near future.

Some people are just not ever going to stay monogamous for long. Other people just aren't able to make a clean break with a continually active WS. What a horrible way to choose to live your life. Sad.


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## Archangel2

Frustrated - Hope all is going well.


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## frustratedman

It's going, but not exactly well. I'm going to have a talk with her soon, like tomorrow. We clearly have unresolved issues that need to be discussed. It's so strange right now. It's like the day to day stuff is fine but the relationship is strained. Like we are room mates, which ironically, she complained about way back in 2011 when we did the MC.

Thanks for your support, Archangel. I'll keep this updated.

By the way, the IC didn't pan out. This guy only accepted cash and not insurance. That's no excuse. I need to find someone else. I've been working 10 hour days and I've been super busy. Again, no excuse...

And to those who complained about the lack of VAR, I highly doubt anything would show up on it at this point. Of her close friends, there is only one that she would tell. She hasn't talked to her since January... I know her and what would work and what wouldn't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

I'm being much more alpha, working out and running, reading and re-reading different stuff, etc. She's not showing affection. I'm not sure how this will pan out, but I now realize that I'm strong enough to get through anything, even if it's on my own.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Archangel2

frustratedman said:


> I'm being much more alpha, working out and running, reading and re-reading different stuff, etc. She's not showing affection. I'm not sure how this will pan out, but I now realize that I'm strong enough to get through anything, even if it's on my own.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Frustrated - I followed your thread because I believed it was unjust that your wife treated you so shabbily. For what it's worth, I think you both are coming to a day of reckoning. As far as you are concerned, I think a two pronged approach may be in order.

1. Continue to develop yourself into the best you can ever be, not for her, but for you. You are still young, and there are many women out there looking for a decent man who will respect them, treat them right and never be unfaithful. Once you are sure you have reached the stage where you can move on, if necessary, then you should then...

2. Approach your wife about going to Retrouvaille. I know of a number of couples who have gone, and they have reported that it has helped their marriages. Don't worry, you won't be proselytized. If she agrees to go, you both have to be all-in with the program and the follow-up exercises. If she refuses to go, you know where you stand, then good riddance. But if she goes, maybe you have a chance to work out this marriage. The way I see it, you have nothing to lose and maybe a whole lot to gain.

Wishing you peace and strength, my friend.


----------



## frustratedman

I've never heard of Retrouvaille, so I looked it up. Interesting and worth considering.

I believe she is going through a serious depression at the moment. I'm not sure what the root of the depression. Perhaps her grandpa's passing, maybe it's clinical/hormonal, maybe it's guilt (however I somewhat doubt that). All I do know is that I won't be able to go on like this indefinitely. When we got married, I vowed to love her in sickness and in health. It appears she's sick at the moment.

Thanks for the post Archangel. If there are any significant updates, I'll share them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Archangel2

Frustrated - Hope all is going well.


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## frustratedman

Thanks for asking, Archangel! We had a conversation a couple weeks ago and that seems to have turned things in a positive direction. She feels like she has sacrificed herself for the happiness of everyone else in both our direct family and her family. I explained my perspective and that I've done the same and part of being married is making sacrifices. I haven't brought up the old EA/possible PA, as it's been nearly 4 years since D-Day. Things are surprisingly well at the moment. I've learned a lot about myself and realize that I'm responsible for my own happiness. Nothing is guaranteed in life. Our marriage isn't perfect. People change. Feelings change. If the worst case scenario arises, I'll survive and eventually thrive. Love is a choice. So, that's where I'm at right now, in my normal scatter-brained fashion!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Not scatter brained at all.

It is clear you love your wife.

Now you two need to communicate honestly and see if she feels the same way about you........

And wants the relationship to thrive.


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## Archangel2

happyman64 said:


> Not scatter brained at all.
> 
> It is clear you love your wife.
> 
> Now you two need to communicate honestly and see if she feels the same way about you........
> 
> And wants the relationship to thrive.


:iagree:

Frustrated - That is why I have been beating the Retrouvaille drum. If you both do the hard work in this program, it will give you the tools to communicate honestly with each other. Plus, it is an "out of left field" approach that will demonstrate to your wife that you are making a good faith attempt to rediscover your marriage.

At the very worst, if things fall apart, it will allow you to look at yourself in the mirror every morning and know that you gave this marriage your best effort to succeed. I wish you the best of luck my friend.


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## frustratedman

Alright I'm back and the news isn't good. I thought things were back on track (sort of anyways).
Today I did a spotlight search on my wife's iphone... found an email from April of 2014 (almost 3 years after D-Day #1). He said "I had a tough time not wanting or trying to kiss you today." Her response was "You just told me the real reason we're friends."

So, needless to say, I was extremely irate. She was outside helping a female neighbor with her plants and eventually came in. I had a look of disgust and said "we need to talk." I told her I found the message and said that obviously I've been betrayed yet again.

She said she understands and that yes we do need to talk. She doesn't want to be married. I pretty much said "you clearly cheated on me," to which she STILL denies... "Yes I flirted but I could never do that to you." Blah blah blah.

She said she's been going to counseling because she trying to figure out how to tell me without hurting me. She says there's too much resentment. I'm like yep ok leave. She's at her Mom's and I'm at home with my 12 year old boy. The older 16 year old boy is sleeping at a friend's.

Well - the crap has officially hit the fan. I'm trying to stay busy and positive but it's real tough. This happened 3 hours ago...


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## Icey181

That seriously sucks, sorry man.

This is what happens when people rug-sweep and do not want to deal with the real issues.

It is time to stand up for yourself.

Contact a lawyer in the morning and start the process…


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## frustratedman

Yes. It turns out that I, like many before, am now the poster boy for rug sweeping. Fortunately, she is not the vindictive type so I'm hoping that things will go smoothly. We didn't have a lot of time to talk but she actually had the nerve to be angry that I looked at her phone.... Unbelievable!


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## frustratedman

She also said that in order to continue our marriage, we would need to break down all the walls of resentment and start from square one. I'm in shock right now... I know what I need to do: stay healthy, focus on myself, try to keep busy and remain cool. Now it's just a matter of doing it. It's like I can't watch TV, can't eat, can't do anything. What a brazen, manipulative liar... I can't believe after all we've been through, it comes to this. I've devoted 20 years into my relationship with this woman!


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## Icey181

If I had a nickel for every time a spouse said, "But it will be ok, she's not the vindictive type," I could start my own practice to help these delusional fools out with their lawyers.

Get a lawyer, _now_.

Do whatever it takes to protect yourself and your livelihood and ensure that post-divorce you will actually be able to support yourself and hopefully not have to support _her_.

Women in these situations always seem to promise a no-issue divorce.

Right up until they get lawyered up and realize how much they can make the spouse they have clear contempt for suffer via the legal process of separation and take him to the cleaners.

If you think you can still trust her word at this point there is literally no hope.


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## Icey181

frustratedman said:


> She also said that in order to continue our marriage, we would need to break down all the walls of resentment and start from square one. I'm in shock right now... I know what I need to do: stay healthy, focus on myself, try to keep busy and remain cool. Now it's just a matter of doing it. It's like I can't watch TV, can't eat, can't do anything. What a brazen, manipulative liar... I can't believe after all we've been through, it comes to this. I've devoted 20 years into my relationship with this woman!


Of course she did.

This is the point at which the cheater explains how it is all your fault, what you need to do to fix it, and why she should not be held accountable at all.

The very act of this manipulation demonstrates just how she looks at you; as a plaything to have dance around for her amusement. 

Don't fall for it.


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## Ripper

Make sure you find an attorney who actually wants to advocate for you. Too many just want to cash your checks and run you through the process. Remember, as a male, you are already going into this at a disadvantage with the courts. 

Prepare a nuclear response with your lawyer. You can always scale it back if she stays reasonable through the process, unlikely as that is.

Don't waste anymore head-space on her or this issue. Assume it was a physical affair, they always are. Trust me, once you get away from her, you are going to be kicking your own ass for staying as long as you have.

Once you get the legal bases covered the only other advise I can give you is to exercise like you are trying out for pararescue. Its about the only thing I found to help with the anger and insomnia issues.


----------



## turnera

frustratedman said:


> She also said that in order to continue our marriage, we would need to break down all the walls of resentment and start from square one.


In other words, she needs to be able to blame you so she doesn't look bad.

meh

move on.


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## frustratedman

This isn't good. I can't sleep. I need to wake up in 3 hours...


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## manfromlamancha

Is she still in contact with POSOM ? Did she come clean about it being PA ? I guess no point in asking for poly now - not sure why you didn't do it right at the start.

Sorry for your pain. As others are advising you, you need to go into lockdown mode - secure finances, custody etc. Then explain that she would need to come clean (via a poly) about what she has been up to in order to have any chance at "working on the marriage".

And definitely check to see if POSOM is not on the scene and is actually separated from his wife (or not).

Take care.


----------



## frustratedman

He's not married. She admitted to still talking to him and that he likes her. Well obviously! If she was a decent person who followed through with her promise of nc, he would clearly not "like" her. She hasn't been able to work on our marriage when she's still involved with the POSOM. 

Oh yeah - she also mentioned that she no longer likes sex with me. Nice!

I again asked if she cheated ever and she STILL says never... It's like seriously? Then you're an effin tease... Why would you lead him on like that? Yeah right.

Well I'm pretty much going to have to miss work today, as I haven't slept a wink.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forest

Well this sucks. I'm sure you've probably read about melatonin and valerian root for simple sleep help around here, just a reminder.

Hand her a piece of paper, and ask her to list, in order, the most important things in her life. Have the first 3 spots filled in for her:

1.Me
2.Attention
3.Compliments

Do you think marriage, family would come before shopping, nail polish?


----------



## frustratedman

I actually haven't heard of the sleep aids. Thanks. 

I just got my first 40 min of sleep but I was having a bad dream about this crud and woke up... It's going to be a long and challenging journey.

I'm going to spend this precious day off trying to get into a therapist for IC.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Given the frequency of your sex life during the affair, its unlikely they were having sex. Normally, ones sex life will dip drastically in that case. Sometimes it will actually go up if the cheating wife is trying to put up a smokescreen or its just for having sex with the other man for fun.

Is she still working with him? If so she will have to quit to stay married to you.

Her answer to his kissing remark would indicate to me that she was only a sex object to him.. It neither is indicative of a physical relationship or a platonic one.

My advice is that if she wants a divorce give her one. If she wants to stay married she has to quit her job, be completely transparent and take a polygraph.

Good luck and stay strong.


----------



## frustratedman

Thanks for the support everyone. I'm fairly certain it's over. Not only were the 3 years from 2008 to 2011 (D-day 1) a lie but I'm starting to feel like the 4 years between '11 and now are also a lie. It would take a lot for me to want to continue with her, even though the stakes are high with the kids, the house, etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forest

frustratedman said:


> I actually haven't heard of the sleep aids. Thanks.
> 
> I just got my first 40 min of sleep but I was having a bad dream about this crud and woke up... It's going to be a long and challenging journey.
> 
> I'm going to spend this precious day off trying to get into a therapist for IC.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Many folks around hear have benefited from these simple, cheap, mostly non-addictive over the counter remedies. I've used them for years, as a former graveyard worker.

Melatonin is a natural amino acid your body produces, but it decreases over age.

Valerian root is an ancient herb used in teas, etc that makes you mildly drowsy. 

For me, the melatonin promotes a deeper, longer lasting sleep, the valerian just makes you a bit drowsy for the short term. When I was having trouble, I'd take a 3mg melatonin, and about 2-3 valerian capsules.

Some say take them 20-30 minutes before bed, some earlier.


----------



## Chaparral

So she said she wants out of the marriage but then indicated what would have to be done to stay married?

Her reason for wanting out is your resentment of the posom?


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## frustratedman

It was a quick conversation before she headed to her mom's for the night. Basically, she doesn't want to be married, there is too much resentment on both sides, she doesn't think I'll ever be happy, she's not happy. She certainly didn't swing on the side of wanting to work it out, but started saying we would have to start at square one and she doesn't think she's strong enough, etc. She indicated that the OM has nothing to do with her distance from me. My opinion is that we didn't heal because we rug swept, based on the counselor's "don't play old tapes," method. I had bad days and she felt guilty and responsible for my happiness. Meanwhile, behind my back for who knows how long, she's talking to this idiot. It's downright disturbing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

I tried to trust and work on myself... It didn't turn out so well. This was predicted by posters on previous pages. I didn't disagree with them, but hoped in time trust would be built, we would meet each other's needs and things would be good.

God I'm just dreading what's ahead. Telling my parents and friends, the kids (obviously not about the nature of the problem), dealing with rhe financial implications, trying to build myself up to be confident, etc. I feel like I'll never trust again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

Then there's the legal/custodial part of the equation... Ugggh. I know it's been done by many before me and I'll get through it. Just not exactly looking forward to it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

I also want to message POSOM and tell him off, but what's the point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Be smart

I read your whole thread and man you are blind,sorry for that.
She works with him FIVE DAYS A WEEK and you belived her there is NO CONTACT betwen them,and that is only AFTER YOU DISCOVERED affair,what 5,6,7 years ago !!!!!!!!!!!!

I am again to write this SORRY FOR YOU but this is your falt,you NEVER DID ANYTHING when you found out,you just went with it.

You said you read those books,maybe you did but you nothing learn from them.

If you have any respect for yourself or your kids you will be divorcing her. 
Stop asking yourslef questions abot money,LIFE IS ONLY ONE and if you want to live that life with woman who cheats on you,lies on you,disrespect you ALL BECAUSE you "lover her",because of your kids or money problemes then my friend there is no help for you.

You know this sh..t goinf for FOUR YEARS,now ask yourself what they did,what things do they talk (it is you my mate) !!!


Stay strong and be smart 

Grettings from EU and sorry for my grammar mistakes,English is not my native language


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## frustratedman

You're right. I clearly don't respect myself enough man. I've been pathetic through this whole nightmare. Also, I found TAM way too late. If I would have done dilligence, played it cool and investigated at the time it was happening, I think the results would have been better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SadSamIAm

I agree with 'Be Smart'. You need to do it right this time. You know there was an affair and you know it went on for years. Don't debate with her about it being physical or not. What she did is much worse than sleeping with a guy a couple of times. She has been giving her emotions to another man for years. I am guessing more, but no need debating it.

You need to file for divorce. She says she wants out of the marriage, then give it to her. Make sure you talk to everyone in both your families so that they know the real WHY about what is going on. Don't let her give her version first.

Don't contact her in any way unless you need to about kids. If you haven't kept it up, get back to exercising to help with the stress. 

Make sure she sees you as a strong man that won't put up with a cheating wife. 

Get to a lawyer right away and get the ball rolling. The sooner she sees papers, the sooner she will see how strong you are. It is damn well time that she started doing the work in the relationship. Once she sees what she is losing, she may come to her senses. It is probably too far gone though. 

You will get your answer one way or the other by being strong and showing her that you won't put up with a cheating wife.


----------



## weightlifter

Warning Very rough read.

My gut says ongoing EA that never stopped.
33% chance full affair.
If its not a full affair... Note the PA part is coming in the next two months. IE Within 60 days of when she told you she does not like sex with you.

Most likely scenario is he is using wedging techniques, whether he is a straight up player or not.
Sorry. I dont sugar coat things.

(Be smart- your English is not bad at all.)


----------



## frustratedman

Yeah you're probably right. The EA may have fizzled a couple times but overall, it ultimately never died. She didn't comply and I let her because I agreed to follow the counselor's advice. As far as the PA thing, she adamantly denies it every time it has come up but then again this is someone who can apparently lie like it's no big deal. I think she would NEVER admit it and wants to take it to her grave.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## G.J.

In your current position I would

1.Go to a lawyer and file

2.start the 180

3.Tell all your family and hers what has happened and how long she has been in an EA with this POS

4.Go see this POS (with a friend) and ask him why he has been Fv**ing you wife and not asking her to D from you, or was it just lust on his part - or words to that effect to gauge his reaction to make him think you know they have been having sex
If he falls for it you'll find it easier to make the correct decision

5.If your satisfied they haven't had sex and may want to R at a later date tell her that the D can be stopped at any time if she shows and does everything that's needed


----------



## Be smart

@frustratedman - You can change all that my mate and continue your life like YOU WANT IT to be.
Dont be someone else plan B, dont be someone else a laughing stock.

Trust me in this one,in years to come you will see that you made a good decision by divorcing her.
Keep training,going to gym,go for a run,go for drinks with YOUR friends.
Spend your time with your children,but do not talk with her oder then about kids.

This lying has been going for so long 4,5,6,7 .... years now let her go mate,set yourself FREE.


----------



## Icey181

G.J. said:


> In your current position I would
> 
> 1.Go to a lawyer and file
> 
> 2.start the 180
> 
> 3.Tell all your family and hers what has happened and how long she has been in an EA with this POS


These three steps are immensely important.

You need to get yourself legal counsel to protect yourself on the civil front.

You need to hit the 180 to protect and build yourself on the self-esteem front.

And you need to out your wife to ensure you have proper support on the social front.

You have a long and trying road ahead of you and these things are what you need to help you get through it.



> 4.Go see this POS (with a friend) and ask him why he has been Fv**ing you wife and not asking her to D from you, or was it just lust on his part - or words to that effect to gauge his reaction to make him think you know they have been having sex
> If he falls for it you'll find it easier to make the correct decision


This I would not recommend.

At worst it will involve complete lies and no resolution and at best it means more anger for you.

He is a POS and that is all you need to know…drop him like a bad habit.

You need contempt for this scumbag, do not pay him attention.



> 5.If your satisfied they haven't had sex and may want to R at a later date tell her that the D can be stopped at any time if she shows and does everything that's needed


I highly doubt they have not slept together and can almost guarantee you that they will shortly if they have not.

The boat has sailed on R _because she will never stop cheating on you_.

Unfortunately, the failure to deal with this the first time properly has destroyed just about any ability you have to force a correction in your hopefully STBXW.

Your choices really are to live in a relationship in which you are constantly cheated on or divorce and try to find happiness.

I hope you choose happiness.


----------



## weightlifter

frustratedman said:


> Yeah you're probably right. The EA may have fizzled a couple times but overall, it ultimately never died. She didn't comply and I let her because I agreed to follow the counselor's advice. As far as the PA thing, she adamantly denies it every time it has come up but then again this is someone who can apparently lie like it's no big deal. I think she would NEVER admit it and wants to take it to her grave.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you put a gun to my head and made me bet all my money if they had sex in some form I would say no. Again just my gut but I am correct more than no. Note I mean sex meaning genitals. I have a gut feeling it runs the other way on making out.

Again, just my gut. Understand Ive been in thousands of threads by now and am very good at running odds.

Steel yourself brother, The full PA part IS COMING. Go buy a heavy bag and take it all out on that until your arms are jelly. It will help. Note dont do it in front of her as it could be construed as a threat.

I can almost guarandamntee she has heard, [hug]. "He is mean to you and does not deserve you."

Read the WHOLE thread by the poster BFF and believe. It starts rough but ends EPIC.


----------



## frustratedman

Thanks for the inspirational message!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## weightlifter

frustratedman said:


> Thanks for the inspirational message!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Huh? Who?

LOL too many posts flying about.


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## SadSamIAm

frustratedman said:


> Thanks for the inspirational message!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hope you are acting. You should be taking a day or two off work. Tell your boss what you are going through. 

Go talk to a lawyer or two. Find out what you need to do to protect yourself. Get the ball rolling.

Next stop should be to talk to her parents and yours. Tell them what is going on and why. 

Don't contact her. If she contacts you, don't respond unless it is about the kids.


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## frustratedman

I'm pretty sure I read BFF's post at some point but do you by chance have a link to it? Unfortunately, I'm not very good at navigating this site.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## weightlifter

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/51949-wife-best-friend-having-least-ea.html


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## eastsouth2000

let me just sort this out-
to my understanding you had an exclusive marriage
+having a dating account while your married, is cheating
+flirting & hiding information is cheating
+emotional affairs, is cheating
you did not have to find out if they had sex to call it cheating.

in my opinion two ways you can got about it.
-a. play the game - play her, seek forgiveness, continue to love her, if you still get sex and love why not, expenses are evenly shared? have a family for the sake of the kids. and + have your own affair so you don't get left out. (very wrong advice) but an option hey its a new world out there marriage is evolving & cheating is as rampant as ever.
-b. divorce - burn everything down (not literally) and build a new. the righteous man's choice.

if your gonna divorce anyway. why not just drag it out. still having love and sex right. she comes home to you every night? have your own affair if you feel left out.

i say, if you cheat on me. This marriage is officially "Open" with or without your knowledge. (and if she finds out about your affair, just say: "I've forgiven you for so much wont you forgive me." hahaha

i give the definite wrong advice but hey opinions and opinion.

focusing to much energy on this affair thing. need to focus that on your self and your kids.


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## Ripper

OP, if you are off work today, logout and go talk to a lawyer. Doing something is the best remedy for the funk you are in. Take back some control.


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## frustratedman

Since I only had 40 minutes of sleep I didn't have a chance to see a lawyer yet today but I did go to the Dr. and now I'm sitting in the lobby of IC. Need to get my head straight...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dyokemm

"She also said that in order to continue our marriage, we would need to break down all the walls of resentment and start from square one."

Tell her, "No thanks....I don't want the M or you anymore....let's start the D ASAP"

She'll never let you know it, but IMO letting a cheater know you utterly reject them stings and hurts most (not all) of them.

I think this is true because IMO cheaters are very selfish people, with the odd and ironic combination of both low self-esteem and an overweening sense of entitlement....

In other words, they need to see themselves as SO SPECIAL that both BS and AP want to have them....and they are empowered to choose the happiness THEY want, with the BS and AP waiting in the wings with baited breath.

Rejecting them outright wounds and pricks their pride....well most of them IMO....and watching them register the rejection and disgust can be therapeutic to the BS IMO by giving them a sense of pride and dignity for standing up and saying 'No more' to their traitorous spouse.


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## frustratedman

Thanks for everyone's posts!

Update: The IC was phenomenal. Gave me great advice and perspective. Felt good to talk to someone face to face. She recommended for me to not talk unless logistics, just ask my wife to pack up and leave, no use separating, we haven't even had a marriage for years, etc. Her mom lives 5 miles away. My folks live 200 miles away. She's the one who didn't want to work on the marriage why should I have to leave, etc.

Also my buddy who recently got divorced contacted his lawyer for me I guess she's phenomenal and reasonably priced. Getting that ball rolling. I figure there is a 95% chance of D right now. In the end, my wife will realize what she lost. She not only cheated on me, but the entire family.

More updates to come...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Archangel2

Frustrated - I am so very sorry that things turned out the way they did. I know I had advised that you look into Retrouvaille as a means of achieving reconciliation. But I hope I will not surprise you with what I am going to say.

Your wife strikes me as the type who does not know what she's got till it's gone. So give her what she thinks she wants. BE GONE! I hope you can successfully detach and work toward the next chapter of your life. There are many good women out there who will appreciate a good, faithful man. Please don't waste any more time on this self-entitled hypocrite.

I wish you peace and strength, my friend.


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## frustratedman

Archangel - I've been waiting to hear from you! Thank you so much for your words of wisdom through this whole debacle. You're exactly right - she will eventually realize what she's lost and will regret it. It's been a difficult couple days, but I'm faring well considering.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Be smart

Stay strong mate,at least we are here for you.
Talk to her only about kids,everything else goes to your lawyer,she will be pissed trust me on this.

Take care


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## frustratedman

Well, i think I'm going to try to go to work today. My good buddy wants to go for a beer after work tonight.

I haven't told my folks yet. They're going to take it hard. We both have great and deep relationships with each other's families. That's going to be tough.

Then there's all my friends. I make a decent living but by no means am I rich. One of my best friends is a Dr., who is doing quite well. Him and his wife do stuff with us as couples. We've been hanging out for around 20 years. His wife was going to take my wife on an all expenses paid trip to Chicago for my STBXW for her 40th. When I tell my buddy's wife about what a cheater my STBXW is, that will be off for sure! Sorry - it's the little things in life...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

Also, a little random note... So my STBX has her main email then a secondary email for coupons (for all the internet deals etc.). This email I found was in her coupon email account. Just funny how she tought she was soooo smart.

Also, not sure if I already said this, but she actually tried to accuse me of invading her privacy. I shut that down quick. I told her "strange - every time I look, I find something."

Cheaters I tell ya!

Sorry for the random posts. Two nights ago I got 40 minutes of sleep. Now last night I got around 4.5 hours but I still woke up about 2 hours before I had to due to bad dreams. Every time I wake up it's like "is this real?"

The joys of having a cheating, no good, lying, dispicable spouse!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

But you are getting stronger. Just stay the course. I think in your case you are making the right decision. In order to heal you have to have a WS who owns her sh!t and is willing to do the hard work to help you heal from her bad behavior, OR, you must extricate yourself from that spouse and put distance between you so that the healing can begin. Your WW is nowhere near capable of helping you or being empathetic, so I think the latter course is the only option for you.


Oh, and she needs to move out. Asked her to.


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## manfromlamancha

She has admitted being in contact with him all this time and has said that he likes her (in that he "is trying hard to resist kissing her") although I didn't understand her response to him about that is why we are friends ??? Has she admitted to you that she has feelings for him ? (She has already admitted to being in an EA and that is what being in an EA implies).

If that is the case then 

(a) they have had sex;
(b) she is in love with him and has been all this time.

You need to expose this and I like the idea of confronting him (without warning to her or him) and asking him why he has been f**king your wife and not taking it further to get her to divorce you. It would be interesting what his response would be. 

Also consider suing their employers for alienation of affection.


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## Chaparral

Am I mistaken but hasn't your sex life remained steady and frequent through all these years? A big red flag is a change in your sex life. What is odd though is now she says she doesn't even like sex with you. Was that just said out of anger? This could be accase of her having sex with you both and her keeping the sex going with you as a cover.

He is single, it doesn't make sense that if this is a hot affair that she hasn't left you after all this time. I just don't get all this. It seems so contradictory and weird.


----------



## frustratedman

manfromlamancha said:


> She has admitted being in contact with him all this time and has said that he likes her (in that he "is trying hard to resist kissing her") although I didn't understand her response to him about that is why we are friends ??? Has she admitted to you that she has feelings for him ? (She has already admitted to being in an EA and that is what being in an EA implies).
> 
> If that is the case then
> 
> (a) they have had sex;
> (b) she is in love with him and has been all this time.
> 
> You need to expose this and I like the idea of confronting him (without warning to her or him) and asking him why he has been f**king your wife and not taking it further to get her to divorce you. It would be interesting what his response would be.
> 
> Also consider suing their employers for alienation of affection.


I'm in MN where alienation of affection had been abolished.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

Chaparral - I agree it's strange. I do think that anger may have been involved in her sex statement. This was right after I confronted her with the new email I found. She really lashed out, blame shifted, etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

frustratedman said:


> I'm in MN where alienation of affection had been abolished.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Supposedly you can sue or threaten to sue for intentional infliction of emotional distress though.:nerd:


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## Chaparral

frustratedman said:


> Chaparral - I agree it's strange. I do think that anger may have been involved in her sex statement. This was right after I confronted her with the new email I found. She really lashed out, blame shifted, etc.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would think anyone would no if their partner wasn't enjoying themselves:grin2:.


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## frustratedman

Well, I took today off again. My boss is being very understanding and supportive, which is great. 

Going to meet her for coffee in 45 minutes to talk logistics/living arrangements and discuss how we will be telling the kids later today. 

I also told her that today I'll be notifying my family and friends about the impending divorce. She said "isn't that a bit personal," to which I replied "well they're going to need to know." She knows I'll be exposing her for the lying %#¥$ she is. 

Basically, this is her last chance at "backing out" and wanting to reconcile, which I know will not happen. For any chance of that to happen, a lot of things would need to happen - full admission, poly, quit her job, beg for forgiveness and essentially worship the ground I walk on for a long, long time LOL!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

Woah! Too many "happens" in the post above... Sorry lack of sleep and rushing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

frustrated

Just try to stay calm and focused.

Make a list of what items need to be discussed.

Keep it business as best you can. THe less emotional the better right now.

HM


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## SadSamIAm

frustratedman said:


> Well, I took today off again. My boss is being very understanding and supportive, which is great.
> 
> Going to meet her for coffee in 45 minutes to talk logistics/living arrangements and discuss how we will be telling the kids later today.
> 
> I also told her that today I'll be notifying my family and friends about the impending divorce. She said "isn't that a bit personal," to which I replied "well they're going to need to know." She knows I'll be exposing her for the lying %#¥$ she is.
> 
> Basically, this is her last chance at "backing out" and wanting to reconcile, which I know will not happen. For any chance of that to happen, a lot of things would need to happen - full admission, poly, quit her job, beg for forgiveness and essentially worship the ground I walk on for a long, long time LOL!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't tell her when you will be notifying people. Maybe let her know after notifying if you feel she needs to know.

Doing it before just gives her time to contact first and try to spin the situation to make you look like the bad guy.


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## manfromlamancha

Up until this final episode, I was not 100% that this was a PA or even an affair of any kind - just inappropriate boundaries (was what I thought). Why ? Because all you had up until this point was:



Her looking up EA vs friendship (which is what made me believe that she wasn't sue about her behaviour)


The number of texts to him (which could be anything really)


The fact that she deleted the texts and tried to keep the fact that she was talking to him about all kinds of things from you (which could be explained by her thinking you would be really upset and this was her own little dream world)


The stained shirt and trapped car seatbelt buckle in the SUV which suggested she had flattened out the back seats (which didn't make sense to you because he had a SUV too)


When she contacted him when you went away very early in the morning (7 am) and then at her lunch break after which you believe that she was off from work (nothing really concrete here)


Her admission to an EA (which she could have got from her definition of EA i.e. keeping stuff from you and discussing stuff that she shouldn't with him)


And finally your gut! (which is normally the strongest indicator but even that seemed to be faltering from time to time)


So together with your close mutual friends finding it very difficult to believe that she would sleep with anyone while married to you and the possible explanations above, it kind of left enough room for doubt.


Is it possible that she has fallen out of love with you over this recent period over what has been happening ?

What is most damning is that she continued to contact with him and his very forward statement about needing to kiss her and her very strange and unclear response to that.


So I have got to ask, does your gut still tell you that something more happened/is happening or could it just be your anger towards her unacceptable behaviour ? And what is the most damning text or email content from her that you have seen ?


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## frustratedman

Here's the bottom line - she told me she doesn't want to be married, she told me she loves me but is not in love with me, she TOTALLY disrespected me by continuing talking, flirting, etc. There has been 3 D-Days now. Whether or not it was actual sex isn't relevant.

I'm done. It feels refreshing not to care what she's doing. I don't care any more. It's not worth my energy. I need to move forward with my life. 

My therapist pointed out that I'm not at fault for trusting her. We basically have had no marriage for years. It's on. I'm going to contact lawyer soon. 

We just had our meeting about logistics. I'm going to be living at the house she's going to be living at her mom's. The schedule is interesting but should work well.

I know that people on this board are jaded but I know that she will not try to screw me over in the divorce. Period. When my buddy got divorced, his ex really tried to screw him over (unsuccessfully, may I add). My "wife" said "how can she be like that? I would never in a million years do that to you if we ever get divorced."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

She's here right now. I'm upstairs, she's downstairs. Waiting for the kids to wake up (late sleepers in the summer). Then, when they're fully awake, we'll be telling them the news. It's going to be a conversation that they will remember for the rest of their lives. Very sad, but I'm going to be strong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dyokemm

"She's here right now. I'm upstairs, she's downstairs. Waiting for the kids to wake up (late sleepers in the summer). Then, when they're fully awake, we'll be telling them the news. It's going to be a conversation that they will remember for the rest of their lives. Very sad, but I'm going to be strong."

I hope the last thing that runs through a cheater's mind when they are on their death bed is the guilt over what they did to their kids.

I know it was very much on my paternal grandmother's mind as she lay dying....she was feeling incredibly guilty about what she had done and was devastated that my dad would not forgive her.


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## 3putt

frustratedman said:


> She's here right now. I'm upstairs, she's downstairs. Waiting for the kids to wake up (late sleepers in the summer). Then, when they're fully awake, we'll be telling them the news. It's going to be a conversation that they will remember for the rest of their lives. Very sad, but I'm going to be strong.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Make sure you tell them his name so they'll know who is 50% responsible for wrecking their family as they know it. And don't tell her you're going to. Just do it. In fact, don't tell her *anything* you plan to say to anyone. Again, just do it.


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## frustratedman

Agreed! I feel I have given my all to work this out. Every single day I went to work, I'd think about her being at work with the POSOM, but I trusted her because she promised she would end contact. You realize how much suffering that was? 4 years. What an idiot I was. But again, our counselor provided our guidance. She didn't honor it, whatsoever. I really can't ever look back and say I didn't give my all!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

3putt said:


> Make sure you tell them his name so they'll know who is 50% responsible for wrecking their family as they know it. And don't tell her you're going to. Just do it. In fact, don't tell her *anything* you plan to say to anyone. Again, just do it.


Absolutely not. That isn't healthy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3putt

frustratedman said:


> Absolutely not. That isn't healthy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, lying to them and not telling them the truth about *their* lives isn't healthy. They already have one parent lying to them and betraying their trust. Do you really want them to believe they can't trust either parent to be honest with them?


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## frustratedman

3putt said:


> No, lying to them and not telling them the truth about *their* lives isn't healthy. They already have one parent lying to them and betraying their trust. Do you really want them to believe they can't trust either parent to be honest with them?


Then the kids think "I'm half a liar, because I'm half mom and half dad." Now, later in life, when the kids are adults and the time is right, then I may tell them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

I agree with your sentiment, but for the kids' own health, that's not a good idea, in my opinion. Believe me - I'd like to tell everyone!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3putt

frustratedman said:


> Then the kids think "I'm half a liar, because I'm half mom and half dad." Now, later in life, when the kids are adults and the time is right, then I may tell them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It'll be too late then. They will know that you did indeed lie to them and you can bet your ass they won't forget it.


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## frustratedman

I won't be lying to them. I'll be saying that we have issues that we weren't able to resolve, stuff like that...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

Sometimes you need to shelter kids from certain things. This is one of those things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3putt

frustratedman said:


> Sometimes you need to shelter kids from certain things. This is one of those things.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Kids need to know they can trust their parents....*period*! They already have one that is lying to them. What do you think's going to happen when they realize they can't trust either parent to tell the damned truth?

But since you seem to have the answers for everything, I'll leave it alone. You will regret it, though. I promise you this.


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## frustratedman

I appreciate your candid advice and I realize you have good intentions! Howver, I respectfully disagree.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

And I never once indicated I know everything...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

If you tell them anything other than the truth your both lying to them.
Go
To mariage builders and look up the exposure article. It explains in detail why you should not lie to your kids.


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## frustratedman

We wouldn't be lying... Unless you consider it lying by ommission.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

My mom didn't tell me the truth about my dad and his cheating. I found out when I was 50. All my life, all I thought was that my mom wasn't good enough to 'keep' my dad, and I translated that into MY belief system that women don't have any power or control. Had I known that he cheated, had I known that he'd tried to come back home after cheating and she refused, my whole life would have been different. I made so many mistakes because of the 'truth' my parents set up about 'just having different goals in life.'

Your kids won't fall apart if you just tell them 'moms and dads are supposed to love only each other, but your mom found someone else to love, so we aren't going to be together any more.'


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## SadSamIAm

frustratedman said:


> Sometimes you need to shelter kids from certain things. This is one of those things.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think most professionals disagree with you on this one

Should You Tell Your Child About The Affair?


----------



## 3putt

turnera said:


> Your kids won't fall apart if you just tell them 'moms and dads are supposed to love only each other, but your mom found someone else to love, so we aren't going to be together any more.'


Let's not forget his kids are 15 and 11 years old, not say, 8 and 4. They're old enough to be told the truth in an adult manner.


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## SadSamIAm

frustratedman said:


> I appreciate your candid advice and I realize you have good intentions! Howver, I respectfully disagree.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


From Should You Tell Your Children About The Affair? - Marriage Missions International : Marriage Missions International

“Does age impact this? If your children are under eight years old, they’ve already made up their own story. They are egocentric and will think they have caused the tension. If your children are teenagers, the kids probably already suspect the affair. Tell them the whole story: Dad had a girlfriend; Mom got involved with someone at work. Sharing the truth allows them to process the issue with Mom and Dad instead of guessing and keeps them from expending emotional energy checking on how well Mom and Dad are doing.


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## 3putt

> Dr. Harley on telling the children:
> 
> My experience with the positive outcomes of hundreds of families where an affair has been exposed to children has led me to encourage a betrayed spouse not to fear such exposure. In fact, to mislead children, giving other false explanations as to why their parents are not getting along, causes children to be very confused. When they finally discover the truth, it sets an example to children that dishonesty is sometimes acceptable, making them the judge of when that might occur.
> 
> An affair is an attack on children as well as the betrayed spouse. And it's true that children are deeply affected by this form of irresponsible behavior. But it's the act of infidelity that causes children to suffer, not the exposure of it. Facts point us toward solutions. Illusion leads us astray. That's true for children as well as adults.


 here 



> Q: So, you do suggest telling our 10 year old son? Is this more than he can handle? He never saw any real unhappiness as my husband and I had a very low conflict marriage. I have been protecting our son from this truth. He still has hope that his dad is going to come home.
> ___________________________________
> A: As for your son, the truth will come out eventually, even if you get back together again. And your son won't be emotionally crippled if he hears the truth. It's lies and deception that cripple children. He should know that your husband is choosing his lover over his son's mother. It's a fact. He's willing to ruin a family unit all for what.
> 
> When I first started recommending openness about an affair, I wasn't sure what would happen. But I did it because I knew it was the right thing to do. Now I know that for most couples it marks the beginning of recovery.





> The reason that children should know about an affair is that exposing it to the light of day (letting everyone know), helps give the unfaithful spouse a dose of reality. An affair thrives on illusion, and whatever a betrayed spouse can do to eliminate the illusion is justifiable. Mold doesn't grow well in sunlight.





> 2. How honest should I be about the A? (they are 7 and under)
> 
> Tell your children as much as you can about their father's affair, and how it affects you. There are some counselors and lawyers that strongly disagree with me on this issue, but I have maintained that position for over 35 years without any evidence that children are hurt by it. They're hurt by the affair, not by accurate information regarding the affair. Just make sure that you don't combine accurate information with disrespectful judgments. For example, you can say that the OW has taken their father away from you, but you should not say that she is home-wrecker (or worse).





> My basic approach to life is that radical honesty is valuable on many different dimensions. It keeps us out of trouble, it helps others understand us, and it helps others avoid the same mistakes we have made. Letting your children know the details of your husband's affair would help them in all three areas.
> 
> The more your children know about your husband's affair, the more careful he will be to avoid them in the future.
> 
> The more your children know about his affair, the more they will understand what you are going through in your recovery (by the way, you are doing very well -- keep up the good work!).
> 
> Being radically honest about your husband's affair with your children would also help them avoid affairs themselves. How it happened and how could it have been prevented is a great object lesson for children. I learned that I was vulnerable for an affair when I learned about my grandfather's affairs. The extraordinary precautions I've taken were directly related to what I learned about him.
> 
> It's the approach I've always taken, and while it's difficult, especially for the WS, there's much more upside to it than downside.


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## turnera

3putt said:


> Let's not forget his kids are 15 and 11 years old, not say, 8 and 4. They're old enough to be told the truth in an adult manner.


Really? Oh, HELL yes, you tell them! This is the kind of thing you need to know, growing up, so that you can see real-world consequences to cheating, so YOU don't grow up to cheat.


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## frustratedman

Gosh now I'm considering it... Maybe you guys are right. We haven't told them yet. She wants to talk to her mom in person to confirm our logistics plan before we tell them so this bought me more time... My fear is that instead of the divorce going smoothly, she's gonna take the gloves off.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SadSamIAm

You have a 15 year old. He might already know or suspect.

He might not ask today, but it will be very soon when he asks if one of you cheated. If he doesn't ask, he will certainly be thinking that one of you has cheated. Do not lie to him. 

I truly believe your best option is to tell him before he asks.


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## frustratedman

Ok so I've researched the heck out of this whether or not to tell the kids topic... There is no "right" answer. I'd like to tell them and they will in turn resent her, at least for a period of time. She will go nuts in the divorce and try to screw me over. What about waiting until the divorce is finalized then telling them? Also, I'm considering playing the "if they ask, I'm going to tell them the truth" card. I'm also considering speaking with her about this topic and see if she, herself, is willing to own her affair. Too many options... So complicated. This also may change the whole way I want to tell them. Ultimately, this entire situation is a result of her actions and inability to communicate properly. Thanks again to everyone for their imput. 3putt thanks for starting this conversation, even though I pre-maturely ruled it out!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Then tell them after the divorce is final.


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## SadSamIAm

The 15 year old is going to ask the question before any divorce is final.


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## 3putt

frustratedman said:


> Ok so I've researched the heck out of this whether or not to tell the kids topic... There is no "right" answer. I'd like to tell them and they will in turn resent her, at least for a period of time. She will go nuts in the divorce and try to screw me over. What about waiting until the divorce is finalized then telling them? Also, I'm considering playing the "if they ask, I'm going to tell them the truth" card. I'm also considering speaking with her about this topic and see if she, herself, is willing to own her affair. Too many options... So complicated. This also may change the whole way I want to tell them. Ultimately, this entire situation is a result of her actions and inability to communicate properly. Thanks again to everyone for their imput. 3putt thanks for starting this conversation, even though I pre-maturely ruled it out!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Eventually, she's gonna go nuts and try to screw you over anyway, so you may as well just disabuse yourself of an 'amicable' divorce notion right now. We've had maybe 2 or 3 over the years that ended in favor of the BS without the WS making more and more demands and getting sh!ttier and sh!ttier as divorce time drew closer. It's just the way it is, and with her attitude, it's not likely to change this time.

The way I see it, you do things right from the beginning, and you'll have nothing to regret in the end.

And that would also include full exposure (the whole truth) to her family and friends as well. Don't let her rewrite history to make herself look like a victim at your expense.


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## Be smart

Please get your lawyer and start divorce,if you can do it today DO IT mate.
This is your life and you are not going to live it again.

Get her out of your life please.
I dont even know you but I am so sad for you.

Run Forest Run.


Take care


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## RandomDude

Sheez I didn't propose either, besides no one can get me on my knees - BLEH!


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## G.J.

Please don't lie to them...EVER at this stage in their lives

If they ask I would tell them and they will ask so the point is moot really

They will find out very quickly what happened and if you have lied they will hate you and have a reason then to focus their anger on

They will be sad and angry so don't fuel the anger by lying and smoother the sadness with your love for them


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## Chaparral

If your wife disagrees with telling your kids the truth, print off the marriage builders article and give it to her.

Your wife fired you. Her feelings are now another man's concern.

Trust us, guys hoping their wayward wives will start acting responsibly and be nice during divorce are almost always fooled. Wait till she talks to an attorney and see what happens, especially when it comes to custody.

Check out dadsdivorce.com.


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## frustratedman

Thanks everyone! I'm actually going to work today. In the past two days I've lost 6 pounds and have eaten about 1/2 a meal each day. We never did tell the kids yesterday because it didn't work out with timing. There was an emergency vehicle repair issue.

We did, however, draw up a schedule, which is highly in my favor. I basically have the kids Sunday through Wednesday. I was jusr thinking "holy cow is this for real?" I get to live in the house, she still has to pay half the payment on it. She's in agreement due to the fact that she had destroyed the marriage and our family.

It was strange - she wore her ring, I didn't.

Haven't set up lawyer meeting yet and I know it's important. Been just trying to not break down and get my head straight. Went out with my friend who went through divorce 2 years ago. He was very inspiring, talking about my new life, new women, etc.

I know I will grieve and mourn, even as bad as she's treated me. We've got a 23 year, deep history. Also I dread telling the kids. The older one will be sad but will handle it. The younger one? When his 93 year old great grandpa died and we were driving home, he cried for an hour straight. I'm sure he's not going to take it well at all. It will break my heart but I know that I need to be strong. The kids are my number 1 prioriry then myself.

She sent me a huge text, again claiming she is not in an affair but knows her choices were wrong blah blah blah...

Sorry - again I'm scatter brained and all over the place. Will try to post again later today.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

Polygraph


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## Tango in Triple Time

Be careful. She may agree today that she is in the wrong and will pay half the house payment, but that will change. She's trying to keep you a little bit happy so you don't come hard at her in the divorce. It's impossible to look at your own divorce unemotionally. That's why you have a lawyer. She will screw you over if she can, that's what damaged people do.

Tell your kids the truth. They WILL find out, and in the long term, who better than the parent to hear it from?


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## G.J.

She's wearing her ring to show mum etc. that she's married and you are being unreasonable about a friendship she has

She hasn't done anything wrong

...simple as that

Lets hope you can get some thing that will blow her easy exit out of the water or she will stick to that story for ever


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## Be smart

Please listen to us,if you dont want my comments then listen to others.
Also your friend told you the same things like we are.

Lawyer ASAP

I like it that you took of your ring,it is a big step forward,to your new life.

Dont talk to her,she is lying to yo AGAIN. Talk only about kids and divorce.

Keep moving forward mate,please.
Do it for yourself and your kids.


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## weightlifter

1) You can TRY to run a "Nice" divorce. By all means try. BUT...
Run with your shields up and ready to fight the second she changes her tactics.

2) Families other than kids and all first circle "couple friends" have been told she cheated, correct?


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## frustratedman

I haven't told anyone yet. I'm waiting to tell the kids first. You may disagree. I think they need to be made aware. I owe it to them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Row Jimmy

For the sake of harmony and peaceful co-parenting and a highly positive divorce outcome... I suggest the smart thing to tell your kids is that Mom and Dad aren't getting along and no longer want to live together so we are moving apart but we BOTH love the two of you very much and will always love you very much. If they want to know what will happen explain that they'll now have 2 homes and basically how the separation plan works. There is no need to involve them any deeper into your crap than that. 

My reason is you have ZERO actual proof of a PA so you don't need to go there and vilify her to that degree even if it does make you look like the good guy. Yes... she had an EA and stepped away from your marriage which has destroyed the trust between YOU TWO and has since created serious distance and eventual destruction but she isn't clearly leaving you for another man. (not yet anyways) 

You gain nothing by making "affair" accusations to children about their Mom except perhaps damaging their relationship with their Mom as a simple divorce is hard enough to take. I doubt most kids would understand the difference between an EA and a close friendship (which is likely how your wife will spin it) and what in the heck does it matter at this point because you two are history? 

She likely has had enough of being married to you and her inheritance and the attention from her EA partner means she can easily start again without you. 

Change is hard... but people do change and people do get divorced. It happens all the time and it hurts and often it isn't pretty but the good news is there are MANY women out there looking for a good guy like you to come along. 

Take the high ground and try to keep a good co-parent relationship with your STBXW because it's a lifetime role. You'll find a new girl somewhere down the road who values you way more than she did and you'll look back and wonder why you worked so hard to save the broken marriage you've struggled with these past years. 

Best of luck!


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## Dyokemm

"She sent me a huge text, again claiming she is not in an affair but knows her choices were wrong blah blah blah..."

IMO this is clear evidence that she is TERRIFIED of you exposing to her family, friends, and work.

Not only is what you KNOW she has done a bad and disgusting betrayal in itself, another reason most WS's fear exposure is that it is usually like the first leak in a dam.....pretty soon more and more details start to come out.

As OBS or HR at work start to dig into details of the A after they are informed, more info that the WS has been hiding from their BS almost always comes to light.

There are multitudes of threads on TAM where an OP posts that the OBS has gotten in contact with them and there is more to the A than they originally thought.

In your case, with a FOUR year workplace A....I promise you there are co-workers of your WW and POSOM who know A LOT of details about what they have been up to....and your WW knows that if HR investigated those details would come out and they would both probably be in jeopardy of losing their jobs.

In addition, she undoubtedly has friends and family that know SOME of the details of the A....but they have been gaslit by her to make you look bad and justify her 'friendship'....you exposing her A will expose her lies...friends and family will start piecing together the info you provide with the details she has divulged to them in gaslighting...and the end result is she will be exposed as a cheating POS....even if they continue to support her, they will know the truth.

Hence, she is doing everything she can to deny an A to you so you don't expose her.


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## frustratedman

You raise a very interesting point. I've never considered emailing their HR department.

So, I'm done with work and at home. The STBX took the day off and now has my younger son at the water park.

She had time to reflect on what we drew up for a plan. Also she's very concerned about me possibly telling the kids. She basically told me that she has some things she could tell the kids as well. I believe she is speaking about marijuana, which I occassionally partake in (at night only, never around the kids and she knows this and that I am a stellar father). What can I say, I'm a musician. Frankly, I 100% believe that it's much more safe than drinking, but that's going on a big tangent.

Her new thing is she shouldn't have to pay half the house payment when she isn't living here. However, her mom lives 5 minutes away and there is plenty of room.

Her propsals are just messed up entirely. We both live in this house every other week. On the off weeks, apparently I'm a homeless vagabond... I told her this will not work. Then she said something like we could rent a small apartment and both live in both places, switching off. Woah this is really messed up!

I contacted a lawyer and left a message. She called me back and left me a message. It's a friend's sister, which is great in my book. I called her back, phone tag to set up an appointment. As everyone has stated, numerous times, that's the next obvious step.

Oh yeah she also started banter, which I couldn't resist responding to. She must be on crack. She said she's been working on her communication skills and wishes she just would have told me about her "friendship." OMG... I blew that up so quick. I told her "are you kidding me? How on earth would you think it would be ok with me for you to be friends with him? That was my one wish in the entire world that you had NC with him and you were well aware of that." I also pointed out that "friends" don't say that it was tough trying not to kiss you today. She agreed. I seriously need to question her intelligence after all these years...

I want this thing to go smoothly for the kids' sake but if she wants to get nasty, I could easily keep that ace up the sleeve about emailing their HR dept., so thanks for bringing that up, dyokemm.

Anyhow, it's been yet another crazy day. Can't wait to talk to the lawyer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## G.J.

weightlifter said:


> 1) You can TRY to run a "Nice" divorce. *By all means try*. BUT...
> Run with your shields up and ready to fight the second she changes her tactics.


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## happyman64

FM

Your wife's crap coming out of her mouth is just that "crap"!

She is trying to justify her 'friendship".

She is trying to get out of her share of the mortgage.

This is just the beginning.

Heck, she even alluded to having things she can hold over your head.

She is not a skilled negotiator and you should take advantage of it.

Try this one on the kids:

"Kids, Mommy has a BF. Daddy can no longer be with Mommy because Mommy has replaced me. 

We still love you dearly. Mommy just does not love me anymore."

No lies in that statement is there?

And when your STBXW wants to make an ass out of herself just remind her your next call will be to her company's HR dept.

Take control. Shut her down. You determine what is amicable.

Because your wife's head is clearly not on her shoulders right now.

She is still only thinking of herself and her wellbeing.

Not her families.

And I will remind you to remind her that just because you are divorcing does not mean you are still not a family.

Is the family dynamic changing? Yes it is.

But you are still two parents that have children that need to be raised and loved.

Remind her of that responsibility.

HM


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## turnera

frustratedman said:


> She had time to reflect on what we drew up for a plan.
> 
> Also she's very concerned about me possibly telling the kids.
> 
> Her new thing is she shouldn't have to pay half the house payment when she isn't living here.


We told you she wouldn't play nice. Lawyer up but good.

And if she's afraid of you telling the kids, use that as your trump card - as long as she gives you everything she promised, you won't tell the kids. Once the divorce is final and you get what you want, all bets are off.


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## 3putt

turnera said:


> We told you she wouldn't play nice. Lawyer up but good.
> 
> And if she's afraid of you telling the kids, use that as your trump card - as long as she gives you everything she promised, you won't tell the kids. Once the divorce is final and you get what you want, all bets are off.


Turnera, I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you on this one. Using the job exposure as a trump card I can endorse (even though I don't like it), but lying to those kids to keep her in check simply to get what he wants out of this is just wrong IMO.

That's something that could bring long term harm to them (not to mention his relationship with them as well) and it's just not worth it for some monetary gain.


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## turnera

He can tell them the truth in six months.


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## 3putt

turnera said:


> He can tell them the truth in six months.


Yep, he can. But it doesn't change the fact that he's lying to them today. And at their ages?.........they won't forget it.

I don't see any upside to this at all.


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## frustratedman

I feel pretty in control, surprisingly. She will submit to what I ask her to. If she doesn't I'll have to threaten her with the HR thing. BOOM! Shut down, big time.

One day, she'll realize what she threw away and treated like trash.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

I just read this entire thread over and realized something. I started it in August of 2014. The email I found this Monday was from April 18th 2014, just 4 month prior... 120 days. Gosh I'm disgusted. 

I'm unsuccessfully trying to resist the urge to put my P.I. hat back on. Today at work, I looked at my saved emails from April 18th, 2014 and low and behold, she was going to Happy Hour with X, X, & X. She named the people, but didn't include his name. The timing was at like 5ish. It all makes sense. He was obviously there. She is such a liar, the other day she said, "I purposely avoid it if he goes." What a load of bs!

I want to hack everything now. That's something that really sucks. I was never like this before this whole affair crap. I just need to let go and not waste energy on it. My energy is precious these days, with the lack of sleep and food. Yeah I know I need to take care of myself, but my mind is racing ALL the time!

But back to the contacting H.R. thing, I also have her boss' email addy. That would certainly suck if I emailed H.R. and CC'd her Sup! Again, ace up the sleeve, nuclear option, only to be used if needed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Be smart

Stay strong mate,you are doing something that we wold yo.
You hired a lawyer,I am so happy damn .

Go out at the evenings with your mates,maybe you could find your new wife.

Please stop torturing yourself about her and her affair.Everything she sais it is a lie,trus me on this one.

Keep moving forward mate


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## Dyokemm

Keep the HR as your nuclear option.

But let her start to feel the consequences of her sh*tty A now by exposing the A to all friends, both your families, and your kids (age appropriate) ASAP.

And when she starts to get nasty, just calmly warn her that you are holding off on HR for the moment, in the hope she will be reasonable with the D.

Tell her you KNOW there are things she is hiding about the A....you KNOW her co-workers are involved because of the date verification on the e-mail you just did....and a formal complaint to HR with an investigation WILL bring all those facts into the open for both her and POSOM.

Tell her you KNOW that the A has never ended, she never kept NC, and just took it underground....and that only an idiot would believe a FOUR year EA would never have gone physical.....and being a workplace A it probably went physical on company time and/or on company property.

Calmly remind her that she may THINK she and POSOM have covered their tracks at work for all these years, but an active investigation involving questioning every co-worker, work schedule, etc, WILL reveal the mistakes she and POS undoubtedly made.

The point of calmly telling her this is, frankly, to scare the crap out of her about getting nasty in the D knowing you are holding this trump card.

She can go off to travel Fairy Tale land with her slimy POSOM...you'll give her that....but she DOESN'T get to do it hiding her crappy behavior from your friends, families, and children while placing all the blame on you for the M ending.

Make her own her sh*t to these people who matter by warning her that a continuation of nasty attacks, tactics, and blameshifting onto you will be met with exposure at her work, where there is guaranteed to be even more disgusting details just waiting to be discovered.

Other posters told you she WILL get nastier as this goes on...you are already starting to see that with the whining about the mortgage and willingness to make you homeless as you 'swap' out time instead.

Start playing hardball with her....YOU hold the nuclear option here....remind her of that calmly but sternly.


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## frustratedman

I've been thinking a lot about the HR thing. They could pull every email & IM etc. Don't know if they would let me know the results, but I'm guessing that's a no. But I'm thinking they might be disciplined or even fired. It's a huge corporation... Then would that hurt me? Hmmmm... I'm guessing my Lawyer would strongly discourage using a "threat" of that nature.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dyokemm

Yes...your lawyer would.

But your WW doesn't need to know that.

As I said OP, I think your WW is terrified of you exposing the A...it's why she is denying it so often and strenuously to you....she, better that anyone but POSOM, knows how much dirt there is out there waiting to be uncovered.

The object of such a discussion about HR with your WW is to get her to be calm, fair, and rational in the D process...AND to 'own her sh*t' in regards to families, friends, and your kids so she doesn't paint you as the horrible monster to blame for the M ending....this is ESPECIALLY important in regards to your own kids IMO.

She knows HR exposure would destroy her and POSOM....you bargain that fear into her playing nice in D and stopping any blameshifting or demonizing of you with family, friends, and kids that she may already be doing, or planning to do, in order to paint you as the 'bad guy'.

You tell her you will let her go to Fantasy Land with POSOM....but NOT at the cost of your future well-being/lifestyle and reputation, especially with your children....she is not going to f*ck you over in the D.

If she can abide by that, you will refrain from nuking her and POSOM's careers with HR.


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## frustratedman

Wouldn't her lawyer say "bring it on?" Obviously, if it came to this, it's real ugly... I really hate to even think about it, but it seems legit in a way. I'm sure the corporation doesn't want possible sexual harrassment cases, etc. in the workplace.

Someone said there's a lot of threads where people did this and it was effective. Maybe I have to locate one or two of these threads...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dyokemm

Frustrated,

Your WW's lawyer represents her....HE/SHE is not going to come out with some false bravado 'Do it then' attitude when that is EXACTLY what your WW would be most terrified of.

What is far more likely to happen is your WW is going to direct her attorney to take reasonable positions on assets, child support, custody, etc, instead of 'going for broke' trying to maximize what WW could get in the D, because SHE is going to fear you blowing up her and loverboy at their workplace.

Your WW will know if she tries to screw you financially in the D, or tries to paint you as a monster to significant people in your lives, that you will unleash unholy h*ll on her and POSOM.

As terrified of exposure as your WW seems to be....she won't risk allowing her lawyer to do that.


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## Dyokemm

And the reason I suggested you have a detailed and frank discussion about HR, what you KNOW are facts she is hiding, and the probable train wreck an investigation would entail...is to make WW pause and think before she reacts in anger or defiance.

Like I said, she and POS probably think they have been very careful and clever...that might embolden her to be defiant.

But you calmly pointing out that a thorough HR investigation will probably reveal A LOT that she thinks in hidden....that after FOUR years, MOST of her co-workers, not just any that are friends/confidants, probably know a tremendous amount of details and info that she and POS think is secret.

Well, a calm conversation like that will make her think twice before rejecting your offer of a peaceful D or engaging in blameshifting or demonizing of you to others to deny/hide her A and responsibility for the destruction of your M.

Remember....what you want now is a fair and relatively calm D AND for your reputation to be intact at the end of it with friends, families, and kids.

What she wants is to escape to Fantasy Land with POSOM....yeah she would like to do it with her A hidden to friends and family and placing the blame for it on you....but she also knows Fantasy Land will be a very bitter and angry place, and will likely start to crumble immediately, if her and POSOM get canned for f*cking around at work.

I doubt POSOM's love would burn quite so bright and shiny if he found himself in the unemployment line because of her and the A.


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## frustratedman

No - you're wrong on the time period. It's worse. Probably more like 2008/09 to 2011 (d-day 1) then from then until now. So we're looking at 6 to 7 years total!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dyokemm

"So we're looking at 6 to 7 years total!"

Well that's even more chances for little details and events she and POSOM think are secret, but really aren't, to be discovered.

That's a LONG TIME to think you have perfectly covered bases for IMO.


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## Chaparral

frustratedman said:


> I've been thinking a lot about the HR thing. They could pull every email & IM etc. Don't know if they would let me know the results, but I'm guessing that's a no. But I'm thinking they might be disciplined or even fired. It's a huge corporation... Then would that hurt me? Hmmmm... I'm guessing my Lawyer would strongly discourage using a "threat" of that nature.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think you need to think about the fallout after your breakup. Even if its the right thing to do.

Divorcing your wife could easily result in your kids being with the other man at least 50% of the time if not more.

I would see if your wife wants to save the marriage and what she's willing to do to save it.

My second goal would be to destroy the other mans job in order for him to throw your wife under the bus. 

In any event, divorce results in your kids with a step dad that will be with your kids as much as you and that's if you get lucky with 50/50 custody.

All this with no confirmation of a physical affair. The EA started years ago, why hasn't a single man been able to lure her away from you if she was in love with him?


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## frustratedman

Chaparral - you raise a very interesting point as well.

This may not be liked by many, but I'm moving slowly on this. I haven't exposed the affair to anyone (except a few really close friends).

My wife and I have agreed to have a talk to determine if we are 100% positive we want to proceed. She is well aware that I take zero responsibility for her actions and that I do accept half responsibility for our marriage problems.

For some reason, she can not be 100% open with me. If she could communicate better, she could tell me what she likes and what she doesn't like. For example, we read 5 Languages of Love back in 2011, when the initial emotional affair was discovered. Her languages are acts of service and words of affirmation. So here I am, cleaning the house, taking care of outside maintenance/upkeep, all this sort of thing. Well it turns out that's not what she wanted. She wanted me to step up a little more with the kids and planning their stuff (appointments, going to friends, various things). I am not a mind reader. I was trying my best. She needs to tell me these things! For some reason, she can't or won't and I don't know why! But she is in IC working on that, so she says.

In the last 6 months, her love for me has dropped significantly. She admitted she's not trying as hard as she used to. I don't know why.

She is aware that I have little trust in her, if any. She still contends that she never cheated on me (I assume she means physically).

She said she doesn't feel safe talking to me, although I have never once even came close to laying a finger on her and she knows this and would fully agree. She's not talking about physically safe. I don't know how I could be more emotionally safe to talk to.

All I know is that communication solves about 95% of the problems in any relationship.

All that said, I am fully prepared to leave her and will be meeting with my potential lawyer next week. My counselor even advised me of this. People on this forum may not like how I'm moving on this, but it's my life and my situation. There is a definite line in the sand that there is no turning back from. I would rather go slow and steady than jump.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

One very annoying thing is that my wife insults my intelligence in regards to this recent discovery. She says "he doesn't know my number," but unless he's a complete moron, I don't know how that's possible. I have proof from back in '11 that they texted hundreds of times. She hasn't changed her number. Additionally, who cares, they clearly can email on her "secret" coupon email account lol, talk at work, etc. I've said on a couple occassions, "where there's a will, there's a way."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

Women, so they claim are more intuitive than men and they expect men to be more in tune with them. Women expecting their man to read their minds is a constant refrain from men. That's how you get books like MEN ARE FROM MARS, WOMEN ARE FROM VENUS (sic).

Everyone with half a brain knows men and women are as alike as cats and dogs.

Basically, when your wife (women) are afraid to communicate with you it is due to fear of your reaction or what you will think of them or how you will react. More of a self esteem, security issue.

OTOH, another person/man can be told things because they have no stake in the relationship. That's why affair partners will allow sex acts they refuse to do with their spouses. They give it up because they don't fear losing respect more than they fear the ap walking away.


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## frustratedman

I keep thinking of things to say, as this entire thread has been - scattered!

If we were to try to continue with our marriage, one condition would be that they can not work at the same place, period. She has been proven to be untrustworthy on multiple occassions.

We would obviously need MC, big time. It wouldn't be easy. It would be a lot of work, but we have a LOT invested in each other. She knows this. She knows I'm a good man and has said numerous times that I'm a great dad.

If she is willing to try, can fully admit what she's done and take ownership for it and is willing to do the heavy lifting, I certainly don't rule out staying married to her. I need to clarify this. If more were to come out of the admission part, there could be no way, depending on what it was. If she admitted they has sex (any sort) I'm out!

Again, there has been a lot of damage, so it would take a lot. But, is it worth it to save a family? Hell yes. Is she willing to do the work? I doubt it. Will the divorce be horrible and ugly? Yes. Will we all survive? Yes. Will there be MAJOR lifestyle changes? Yes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

> Again, there has been a lot of damage, so it would take a lot. But, is it worth it to save a family? Hell yes. Is she willing to do the work? I doubt it. Will the divorce be horrible and ugly? Yes. Will we all survive? Yes. Will there be MAJOR lifestyle changes? Yes.


This is the message you need to convey clearly, concisely to your wife.

You need an honest answer from her if she is willing to put the time and effort into the marriage.

It is a simple yes or no answer you require.

You also need to preface the conversation that whatever she tells you will listened to. You will not judge her nor will you make any rash decision on what she admits to you.

Only then will she tell you if she had sex with him. 

And that is if she is capable of telling you all the truth.

Is she?


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## frustratedman

happyman64 said:


> This is the message you need to convey clearly, concisely to your wife.
> 
> You need an honest answer from her if she is willing to put the time and effort into the marriage.
> 
> It is a simple yes or no answer you require.
> 
> You also need to preface the conversation that whatever she tells you will listened to. You will not judge her nor will you make any rash decision on what she admits to you.
> 
> Only then will she tell you if she had sex with him.
> 
> And that is if she is capable of telling you all the truth.
> 
> Is she?


Well, she can clearly lie to me, so the answer to that is unknown. She has admitted to lying and being deceptive and she understands my perspective when I said "you were well aware that you weren't permitted to talk to him any more, we went through this in MC. So by you doing this, I perceive that to mean you value your relationship with him higher than our marriage." She said she understands what I'm saying. It's just like she was in the emotional affair fog. She got a rush off the attention. It's like a gambling addiction. You know it's wrong, but you keep doing it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Then I suggest you do something different.

Why not go visit the OM at work and let him know your next stop is HR if does not break contact off with your W.

Years ago my wife had to fly to the West Coast for a week at a time to conduct meetings. Her boss at the time was a female VP. She also worked on the West Coast certain weeks of the month.

My wife came home one week very upset. A co-manager had taken her out to dinner alone. It was a supposed "work" dinner but this guy turned all the charm, candles and wine on.

He forcefully pushed himself on her. He knew she was married. My wife finished the dinner and let him know that nothing was going to happen.

Well this guy being the ass he was did not stop the whole week and my wife flew home that weekend. Her first words out of her mouth were she wanted to quit her job.

To make a long story short I flew out to the west Coast the following Monday. called her boss from the airport, let her know I was in town and could she give me a few minutes of her time today.

We met, I told my wife's story to her, she called in the co-manager into her office and questioned him right in front of me.

He actually told the truth but played down his "efforts" to get in my wife's pants.

Then her boss introduced us formally. He knew his job was gone right there.

He was fired on the spot. Problem solved.

In your case your wife is co-conspirator. That is why I think you should approach the OM. You stay calm. You do not threaten.

But you clearly explain what is going to happen next.

Have you thought of that approach? I wonder what your wife would think if you met with the OM???


----------



## Chaparral

happyman64 said:


> Then I suggest you do something different.
> 
> Why not go visit the OM at work and let him know your next stop is HR if does not break contact off with your W.
> 
> Years ago my wife had to fly to the West Coast for a week at a time to conduct meetings. Her boss at the time was a female VP. She also worked on the West Coast certain weeks of the month.
> 
> My wife came home one week very upset. A co-manager had taken her out to dinner alone. It was a supposed "work" dinner but this guy turned all the charm, candles and wine on.
> 
> He forcefully pushed himself on her. He knew she was married. My wife finished the dinner and let him know that nothing was going to happen.
> 
> Well this guy being the ass he was did not stop the whole week and my wife flew home that weekend. Her first words out of her mouth were she wanted to quit her job.
> 
> To make a long story short I flew out to the west Coast the following Monday. called her boss from the airport, let her know I was in town and could she give me a few minutes of her time today.
> 
> We met, I told my wife's story to her, she called in the co-manager into her office and questioned him right in front of me.
> 
> He actually told the truth but played down his "efforts" to get in my wife's pants.
> 
> Then her boss introduced us formally. He knew his job was gone right there.
> 
> He was fired on the spot. Problem solved.
> 
> In your case your wife is co-conspirator. That is why I think you should approach the OM. You stay calm. You do not threaten.
> 
> But you clearly explain what is going to happen next.
> 
> Have you thought of that approach? I wonder what your wife would think if you met with the OM???


You're my hero.


----------



## frustratedman

The problem with that is that I've never even been to where my wife works. It's a secured campus. I couldn't get into the place. I could contact the scum bag on fb, but as you mentioned, my wife is equally responsible. If I contact their HR, they both go down.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3putt

frustratedman said:


> The problem with that is that I've never even been to where my wife works. It's a secured campus. I couldn't get into the place. I could contact the scum bag on fb, but as you mentioned, my wife is equally responsible. If I contact their HR, they both go down.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Here's one thing you need to wrap your arms around. Either her job or your marriage has to go. Can't have it both ways. Up to you to decide which one is more important.


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## happyman64

Chaparral said:


> You're my hero.


Ha! My wife called me crazy after her boss called her to let her know where I was and that I was on my way home.

To this very day she calls me crazy.

I remind her that I am crazy about her and our 3 daughters.

And I am. And they all know it.

But what man wouldn't be a little crazy living with 4 women..... :laugh:

Sometimes unexpected actions bring about tough results!


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## happyman64

frustratedman said:


> The problem with that is that I've never even been to where my wife works. It's a secured campus. I couldn't get into the place. I could contact the scum bag on fb, but as you mentioned, my wife is equally responsible. If I contact their HR, they both go down.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Try harder. Come up with a plan. Ambush him in a public place.


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## frustratedman

The POSOM stands at 6'8". I'm 5'11". Now I'm no rocket scientist, but that might not have the best ending for me. I'm in shape and all but...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

Again, this is equally my wife's fault. She clearly likes the attention he gives her. She admitted to "flirting" with him upon confrontation after finding the text. My wife isn't a tease, which leads me to think that if that's the case, hmmm wonder why this dude would pursue her for 7 years while getting nothing out of it. Then she has to say right to my face, multiple times "I would never cheat on you." See why my head is spinning? She said 100% no. Could she be lying? Yes. Could she be telling the truth? Yes. Sooooo frustrating. Again, believe me, I'm still saying there is a damn good chance that it's over and we're going to gave an all out war in divorce. It really depends on what she's willing to do to repair the damage she has caused me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

I'd say we're at 90% chance of divorce right at this moment. My younger boy definitely is on to something not being right. The older one is always at friends' houses so I don't know if he is aware.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

frustratedman said:


> The POSOM stands at 6'8". I'm 5'11". Now I'm no rocket scientist, but that might not have the best ending for me. I'm in shape and all but...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Then take two friends.


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## farsidejunky

OP, I still hear hopes of you pulling reconciliation our of your wife. That is the path to false reconliation. She has to want it so bad that the shame she has in telling you details does not compare to the fear of losing you.

Also, if you think that a grown woman never went physical in a 6-7 year EA, you are crazy. That defies rational thought. 

If it were me, all actions would be based on the assumption that it did go physical.

Sorry you are here.


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## Chaparral

frustratedman said:


> The problem with that is that I've never even been to where my wife works. It's a secured campus. I couldn't get into the place. I could contact the scum bag on fb, but as you mentioned, my wife is equally responsible. If I contact their HR, they both go down.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


IMHO, one of them has to leave the job, divorce or reconciliation. If that doesn't/can't happen, then they both have to leave even if divorce is the outcome.

Personally, the remark about the kiss is enough for me to have him canned.


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## Chaparral

happyman64 said:


> Ha! My wife called me crazy after her boss called her to let her know where I was and that I was on my way home.
> 
> To this very day she calls me crazy.
> 
> I remind her that I am crazy about her and our 3 daughters.
> 
> And I am. And they all know it.
> 
> But what man wouldn't be a little crazy living with 4 women..... :laugh:
> 
> Sometimes unexpected actions bring about tough results!


Testify. I can get my crazy on too.0 Four women when it only takes one? Whew!


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## Chaparral

The thing is, if this is some hot and heavy affair that's been going on so long why hasn't she dumped you to be with the other man all the time. He's single and has nothing tying him down etc. This just doesn't pass the smell test.

My guess is that if she had left this job when it was first discovered she wouldn't be giving him a passing thought.

Like I said before, out of thousands of threads here I've only seen it one time. Can anyone remember the poster who's wife was having an affair with her boss in the office only and her boss's wife found a video and contacted him. A couple of years ago I think. He still posts occasionally.


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## happyman64

frustratedman said:


> The POSOM stands at 6'8". I'm 5'11". Now I'm no rocket scientist, but that might not have the best ending for me. I'm in shape and all but...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm 5'11". Who cares.

I am not advising a beatdown but a discussion.

Man to man.

No threats are required. he will either give you the time of day or he won't.

Try this opening line:

"I thought we should talk before I go to your HR dept. and cost you your job."

No punches required my friend.

HM


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## Chaparral

happyman64 said:


> I'm 5'11". Who cares.
> 
> I am not advising a beatdown but a discussion.
> 
> Man to man.
> 
> No threats are required. he will either give you the time of day or he won't.
> 
> Try this opening line:
> 
> "I thought we should talk before I go to your HR dept. and cost you your job."
> 
> No punches required my friend.
> 
> HM


My thoughts exactly. In addition, all the HR dept before hand and get their position on coworker affairs and sexual harassment including lawsuits. Handing her coworker some printouts wouldn't hurt your case. If he punches you make sure to have witness and a var on you. At 6-8, being a bully may come naturally to him. 

Win, win.


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## Roselyn

Their EA has gone on for 6-7 years? No way has this relationship not gone physical. Career woman here, 57 years old, & married for 35 years. Affairs are all in the fault of the cheating spouse. Do not rugsweep your wife's behavior. The OM is not committed to her; just a piece of tail. This is the reason that she is still married to you. You are Plan B.

Don't confront the OM as your wife is an idiot. You'll just bring yourself to her level. Work on your self esteem and see a psychologist. Work from a level headed platform. If your wife does not cease her contact activities to this OM, time for you to see a divorce attorney. You can't spend your life in this limbo situation. You deserve a peaceful life.


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## frustratedman

Just throwing this out there. Why can't I message him and threaten contacting HR? Just thinking. There is no way I'd be able to find out where he is to do it in public with the exception of some messed up options like sitting at his residence waiting for hours on end. You know what I mean?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

Roselyn said:


> Their EA has gone on for 6-7 years? No way has this relationship not gone physical. Career woman here, 57 years old, & married for 35 years. Affairs are all in the fault of the cheating spouse. Do not rugsweep your wife's behavior. The OM is not committed to her; just a piece of tail. This is the reason that she is still married to you. You are Plan B.
> 
> Don't confront the OM as your wife is an idiot. You'll just bring yourself to her level. Work on your self esteem and see a psychologist. Work from a level headed platform. If your wife does not cease her contact activities to this OM, time for you to see a divorce attorney. You can't spend your life in this limbo situation. You deserve a peaceful life.


I totally get what you're saying and agree. Having said that, I'd still like to take this slowly and weigh all options before crossing the line of no return.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## G.J.

> Originally Posted by *Roselyn* View Post
> If your wife does not cease her contact activities to this OM, time for you to see a divorce attorney. You can't spend your life in this limbo situation. You deserve a peaceful life..





frustratedman said:


> I totally get what you're saying and agree. Having said that,* I'd still like to take this slowly and weigh all options before crossing the line of no return*.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This worries me if you mean that your even considering remaining in your relationship with your wife if she doesn't break FULL contact with POSOM


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## frustratedman

No need to worry. If, by some chance in hell we reconcile, either she or he no longer works there. There is zero chance of us continuing and those two working together.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BjornFree

frustratedman said:


> Just throwing this out there. Why can't I message him and threaten contacting HR? Just thinking. There is no way I'd be able to find out where he is to do it in public with the exception of some messed up options like sitting at his residence waiting for hours on end. You know what I mean?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Seeing this I'm reminded of a memorable quote from one of my all time favorite westerns The Good The Bad and The Ugly.

"When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk."


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## frustratedman

She came home just to sleep last night. Crashed in the guest bedroom, where my clothes are at (she takes up the entire closet in the master bedroom). Sometimes, she has to work on Saturdays and today is one of those days. She left her ring out where she knew I'd see it. She's trying to play mind games with me, clearly. Granted, when we met for coffee on Wednesday, she had hers on and I didn't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

But I have to be honest, it's working. Her leaving her ring out has effected me. Need to stop that right now and get a grip.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

BjornFree said:


> Seeing this I'm reminded of a memorable quote from one of my all time favorite westerns The Good The Bad and The Ugly.
> 
> "When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk."


So what are you saying? Message him on FB or creep out and stalk him? Lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BjornFree

frustratedman said:


> So what are you saying? Message him on FB or creep out and stalk him? Lol.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:slap: Totally missed the part about going to HR directly did you?


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## frustratedman

BjornFree said:


> :slap: Totally missed the part about going to HR directly did you?


If I did that, they could both be canned.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

She's just as guilty.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BjornFree

frustratedman said:


> If I did that, they could both be canned.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm sorry, I don't know much about the back story in your thread but is he her superior? If so he'll most likely be the one that gets the boot. I'm set to retire in a year, illicit affairs at the office don't seem to be ooh so scandalous as they once were.

Besides what is your goal in all of this? Do you honestly believe that you'll have a good R indeed a good marriage with a woman who might ultimately be swayed by hardball tactics on your part? I don't know about you but reading just 4 out of all the posts you've written here I wouldn't have much hope for R with this person.


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## 3putt

frustratedman said:


> If I did that, they could both be canned.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So, the job is indeed more important than the marriage.

Well, at least that question is settled.


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## frustratedman

He's not her superior. You're absolutely right there is very slim chance of reconciliation. If I told their HR dept., I would think they would do an investigation, but you might be right. Maybe they'll just think I'm a vindictive ex. I would word the email in a very professional manner, indicating there is a possibility that management may have been aware and there is a strong suspicion of illicit activites taking place on their premises. Anyways, that's really a minor point in this whole situation. Going to mow the lawn and try to focus on something besides her and this situation for a moment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## drifting on

frustratedman said:


> He's not her superior. You're absolutely right there is very slim chance of reconciliation. If I told their HR dept., I would think they would do an investigation, but you might be right. Maybe they'll just think I'm a vindictive ex. I would word the email in a very professional manner, indicating there is a possibility that management may have been aware and there is a strong suspicion of illicit activites taking place on their premises. Anyways, that's really a minor point in this whole situation. Going to mow the lawn and try to focus on something besides her and this situation for a moment.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




Before you now the lawn take her ring, when she asks you where it is, say on your finger. When she says, no, it's not on my finger, tell her maybe she left it at OM's house!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3putt

drifting on said:


> Before you now the lawn take her ring, when she asks you where it is, say on your finger. When she says, no, it's not on my finger, tell her maybe she left it at OM's house!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Actually, what I'd do it is take it and when she asks where it is say, "You can have it back if and when you earn it back."

Then stick to it.


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## farsidejunky

frustratedman said:


> Just throwing this out there. Why can't I message him and threaten contacting HR? Just thinking. There is no way I'd be able to find out where he is to do it in public with the exception of some messed up options like sitting at his residence waiting for hours on end. You know what I mean?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Are you scared?


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## drifting on

Contact HR tell them your WW has admitted to having an affair with OM. They don't need to know it was an EA. My WW also had a workplace affair with her co-worker. Had I found TAM earlier I don't think it would have gotten to a PA. Be decisive and firm, seven years is far too long and you owe her nothing. If she is part of the fallout so be it. Just my opinion. 

Oh, and size does not matter in a fight, it's heart that matters.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Take her ring and give it to a friend to hold on to. Don't mention it. Let her stew. That's the kind of thing she'll have to come out and ask about. Gives you a little power.

As for OM, if you're afraid of him, stay away. He'll smell the fear on you. Do send him a message that if he contacts her again, your lawyer will be contacting his company.


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## frustratedman

If I alert HR now, then I lose my nuclear, ace up the sleeve option.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## drifting on

frustratedman said:


> If I alert HR now, then I lose my nuclear, ace up the sleeve option.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




Or she could be too busy trying to salvage her job and reputation. Also puts her in a state of shock so to speak.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

The next step needs to be that we need to talk to confirm that there is zero chance of reconciling. If it's a no, then we need to figure out living arrangements and agree on a reasonable resolution.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dyokemm

"The thing is, if this is some hot and heavy affair that's been going on so long why hasn't she dumped you to be with the other man all the time. He's single and has nothing tying him down etc."

This is rather easy to explain IMO.

He just wants sex....he does NOT want to take on a full time relationship with a divorced woman who has kids.

And she has stayed M to OP because she doesn't want to give up her living situation and lifestyle unless she KNOWS she has the OM locked into a relationship post D.

The thing is...IMO this logically leads to the conclusion that it is a PA.

He's NOT going to keep feeding her the emotional kibbles for 7 years if she isn't giving him the sex he wants.


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## frustratedman

The strange thing is that he apparently has lots of issues: alcoholic, every gf he gets dumps him, etc. He's probably willing to have a relationship with her, but I'm guessing it won't last long...

I'm hurting today big time. She just came home and took the youngest to a pool since it's so damn hot out. He was like "why aren't you coming, dad?"

She's being super mean. It's looking like zero chance of reconcilliation, which is expected. I just want to know for sure before I blow this up with my family, our friends and her family.

Need to finish yard work and then gotta work out or something. I know I need to stay strong, but at the end of the day, I'm very sad. Grieving the loss of a person that has been special to me since I was 16. I know some of the jaded people will reply with "she wasn't sad when she was doing this with POSOM" and they're right in saying that.

I just feel like crying in the fetal position right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dyokemm

Frustrated,

She is being angry and defiant towards you because she has not once in this entire debacle had to face the consequences of her A.

You have protected her by keeping it a secret from your families, friends, and kids.

She feels she is bulletproof....because she has NEVER felt the sting of other family member's or friend's anger at the sh*t she has been pulling.

I still think your best play is to expose the A IMMEDIATELY to all friends, both your families, and the kids (age appropriate)....and then calmly tell her about the nuclear option of HR, along with the likely fallout if that investigation gets started....(details she is still hiding exposed, loss of jobs for her and POSOM, etc).

Tell her that either she accepts responsibility for the A to others and refrains from demonizing you (a very likely possibility given how angry and nasty you say she is acting), and she is reasonable about custody, child support, asset division, etc, in the D....or you will blow her and POS out of the water with HR.

You need to start the D process in earnest here....I think the ONLY possibility you have for R is that she feels the shame of exposure as a cheating POS with friends and family and actually SEES you taking steps to kick her to the curb hard, and she decides to come begging to you to save the M.

But don't hold your breath on her working to save the M.....unfortunately the A and her detachment have gone on too long IMO...this type of shock and awe would have been FAR more effective and likely to succeed if you had done it when you first discovered the A years ago.

You played nice, and this cancer on your M has metastasized in the years post D-Day....it is probably terminal now.

But this is your ONLY chance right now IMO.


----------



## turnera

She's being mean because you're being weak. If you expose the affair to her important people and his, she'll be too busy explaining herself to be mad at you. And miraculously, YOU will suddenly appear strong to her, and you just might become the attractive guy. She needs to SEE that you won't put up with this nonsense and if she doesn't stop, right now, you're going to blow up her world. Instead, you sit at home and mope and wring your hands. VERY unattractive.


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## frustratedman

After my last post, I re-read it and immediately realized it was weak and got a grip. Finished the yardwork. To hell with her. I think I'll give her a deadline of tonight or I'm not interested in reconciling. If she doesn't want to talk, blow up time, we tell the kids and take the gloves off!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

No, you tell her family and friends and the kids.


----------



## 3putt

turnera said:


> No, you tell her family and friends and the kids.


And his family as well. 

And, FM, do it all at once. Don't trickle this out and give her a chance to recover and make excuses/stories/ rewrite history/etc. up. She needs to be hit with it all at once. And, again, when you do expose, make sure you include this clown's name so she can't introduce him down the road to family and friends as someone she 'just' met although I don't think that's what this asshat had in mind anyway.


----------



## G.J.

frustratedman said:


> I totally get what you're saying and agree. Having said that, I'd still like to take this slowly and weigh all options before crossing the line of no return.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





frustratedman said:


> The strange thing is that he apparently has lots of issues: alcoholic, every gf he gets dumps him, etc. He's probably willing to have a relationship with her, but I'm guessing it won't last long...
> 
> I'm hurting today big time. She just came home and took the youngest to a pool since it's so damn hot out. He was like "why aren't you coming, dad?"
> 
> She's being super mean. It's looking like zero chance of reconcilliation, which is expected. I just want to know for sure before I blow this up with my family, our friends and her family.
> 
> Need to finish yard work and then gotta work out or something. I know I need to stay strong, but at the end of the day, I'm very sad. Grieving the loss of a person that has been special to me since I was 16. I know some of the jaded people will reply with "she wasn't sad when she was doing this with POSOM" and they're right in saying that.
> 
> I just feel like crying in the fetal position right now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


unless YOU START to front up and take the lead she will have zero interest in you

Make a plan and action it...R is the last thing she wants

She may even start to look at you in a different light again


----------



## Be smart

You keep saying over and over again there is ZERO CHANCE OF R and you still want to live this life with her.
Mate you know for 6 or 7 years that they have been ***.ng and you just sit there in your house and trust her every single word.

She tells you it never goes for PA,come on do you belive her after ALL LIES?

Please stop thinking about R,just go for D,do it for your kids and for yourself.


----------



## happyman64

FM

Can I make a suggestion to you?

You need to take back control. You need to show your wife that you have a backbone.

Let me give you some suggestions.

A. Your wife left her ring or rings at home where you would see them. 

Pick them up and hide them. Or put them in a safety deposit box. When she asks you where her rings are tell them in a safe place since she does not want to wear them.

B. Your wife is in the guest room where your clothes are when she does come home to sleep. Take her clothes out of the masterbedroom and place them in the guest room. Problem solved.

Take control of the situation. Do a full 180. I would not talk R or D right now until your wife is ready to listen.

I would not talk R or D until your wife is ready to act like an adult.

HM


----------



## frustratedman

Well, we talked this morning. Bottom line? We're done, which was expected. She still says she is not having an affair. Maybe she is, maybe she isn't I'll never know and it doesn't really matter.

She is asking me to find a place since she's the primary care giver to the kids. I gotta be honest - that is true. She preps dinner (gets home earlier from work), is a little more involved with their homework, etc. I'm a great father, she even said that. But, through time, she has been more of a care taker than I am.

I called my parents, which felt good. I'm sure my mom is crying as I type this. They were shocked but loving and supportive. My mom says she's most worried about my older son. He internalizes things.

Anyhow, it kind of feels relieving to not have to worry about if she's talking to POSOM.

But, I am sad that my kids have to go through this...

I think that the summary is that ever since D-Day on Aug 3, 2011, our marriage never was the same. I lost trust in her. That lack of trust was bottled up, changing who I was. It's a sad story and it's not over, but today is one of the defining days of my life.

I haven't shed a tear though. Trying to stay strong...

Signing off for now, but I'm sure I will post again later today.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Now you no longer have to wonder. The last 4 years wasted. 

And IMO she is lying to you. But it doesn't matter anymore.


----------



## Dyokemm

Still denying the A, huh?

I can be a sarcastic a**....I don't think I could have refrained from saying something like this to her:

"Not an A?....tell you what....were gonna have an opinion poll.

I'm going to tell both of our families, all our friends, and all your co-workers what you have done, and then ask their opinions.

I'll even leave out what I think and know in my gut you have really done, and just stick to the facts and details I can prove.

Want to make a bet on what the majority of people call the crap you have done?"


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

frustratedman said:


> Well, we talked this morning. Bottom line? We're done, which was expected. She still says she is not having an affair. Maybe she is, maybe she isn't I'll never know and it doesn't really matter.
> 
> She is asking me to find a place since she's the primary care giver to the kids. I gotta be honest - that is true. She preps dinner (gets home earlier from work), is a little more involved with their homework, etc. I'm a great father, she even said that. But, through time, she has been more of a care taker than I am.


Sorry. I know you wanted a different outcome, but this can happen when trust is destroyed. I'm not in your situation, but I wouldn't' move until the papers are signed and I'm told to leave. Almost anything else I'd agree with your rationalization, but infidelity is where I draw the line.


----------



## frustratedman

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Sorry. I know you wanted a different outcome, but this can happen when trust is destroyed. I'm not in your situation, but I wouldn't' move until the papers are signed and I'm told to leave. Almost anything else I'd agree with your rationalization, but infidelity is where I draw the line.


Agreed. I already told her nay on her proposal after having time to reflect on it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

Dyokemm said:


> Still denying the A, huh?
> 
> I can be a sarcastic a**....I don't think I could have refrained from saying something like this to her:
> 
> "Not an A?....tell you what....were gonna have an opinion poll.
> 
> I'm going to tell both of our families, all our friends, and all your co-workers what you have done, and then ask their opinions.
> 
> I'll even leave out what I think and know in my gut you have really done, and just stick to the facts and details I can prove.
> 
> Want to make a bet on what the majority of people call the crap you have done?"


Good suggestion and I actually used this when I shot down her proposal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

Also, I just fb messaged POSOM and said "Stay the hell away from my wife, you slimy piece of garbage. I'm strongly considering contacting XXX HR dept." Felt good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

I just checked on my fb messenger but he blocked me. Surprise surprise.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

Man I'm hurting big time... Is there anybody out there with words of encouragement? Feeling really alone right now, like a zombie.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

She's got family in the area. I've got friends but no family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Friends are important right now. Call one of them up. They'll help.


----------



## GusPolinski

weightlifter said:


> Warning Very rough read.
> 
> My gut says ongoing EA that never stopped.
> 33% chance full affair.
> If its not a full affair... Note the PA part is coming in the next two months. IE Within 60 days of when she told you she does not like sex with you.
> 
> Most likely scenario is he is using wedging techniques, whether he is a straight up player or not.
> Sorry. I dont sugar coat things.
> 
> (Be smart- your English is not bad at all.)


Eh... I don't see an EA going on for this long w/o going PA, especially given OM's proximity to OP's WW.


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## Dyokemm

"I just checked on my fb messenger but he blocked me. Surprise surprise."

I promise you, this POSOM is now sweating bullets.

Maybe for the first time, he realizes just how f*cked he could be in his job/career.

Expect him to start whining to your WW and for her to get angry.....who cares, ignore her and go ahead and expose the A to both your families, all friends, and your kids (remember though....age appropriate)

Its about time these two scumbags started feeling the heat for what they have done.


----------



## frustratedman

Yeah she's totally acting like there is no affair and all the problems are with me. Go figure. Yes - I admit I haven't been the perfect husband, but I take no responsibility for her affair. And no matter what, it's at s MINIMUM an EA. That is indisputable. The email I found sure makes it sound like it was/is physical. I'm really curious what she's telling her family, as they all love me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

It's kind of bothersome that when we talked about living arrangements, when I was saying we couldn't afford it and I'd be broke she said "how is that my problem?" So, it's almost like "let's just go nuclear right now," but the unfortnate part is the kids suffer. We shall see how this pans out. I'm not leaving. Screw that. I can step up my care taker roll no problem and she knows it. This whole thing just SUCKS!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

She acts that way because you never exposed the affair, thus she has nothing to fear.


----------



## Dyokemm

"I'm really curious what she's telling her family, as they all love me."

I promise you, it is nothing good.

You are currently being rewritten into the role of a monster to her family.

Expose the A and inform them what is REALLY going on...make sure to include facts like the last email exchange and other da*ning communications that show how inappropriate this 'friendship' is....as she has undoubtedly gaslit them that POSOM is just a friend and you are acting insanely jealous.

You are making a big mistake in still hiding her A.....be assured she is not leaving your reputation and good name intact....you are already being painted as Attila the Hun.

You can bet on it.

EXPOSE!!!!


----------



## turnera

Dyokemm said:


> "I'm really curious what she's telling her family, as they all love me."
> 
> I promise you, it is nothing good.
> 
> You are currently being rewritten into the role of a monster to her family.
> 
> You can bet on it.
> 
> EXPOSE!!!!


This is what we tried to warn you about. Because we see it - time after time after time - it's what cheaters do - BLAME YOU.

That's one of the reasons you expose - to stop them from vilifying YOU.


----------



## frustratedman

Dyokemm said:


> "I just checked on my fb messenger but he blocked me. Surprise surprise."
> 
> I promise you, this POSOM is now sweating bullets.
> 
> Maybe for the first time, he realizes just how f*cked he could be in his job/career.
> 
> Expect him to start whining to your WW and for her to get angry.....who cares, ignore her and go ahead and expose the A to both your families, all friends, and your kids (remember though....age appropriate)
> 
> Its about time these two scumbags started feeling the heat for what they have done.


I'm doing just that. I've penned an email that will be sent to my mother in law. Also thinking about sending it to her Aunt and sister, but I don't know if her aunt or sister are aware of the situation.

I also think I'm going to proceed with emailing their HR Dept. I have nothing to lose.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 3putt

frustratedman said:


> I'm doing just that. I've penned an email that will be sent to my mother in law. Also thinking about sending it to her Aunt and sister, but I don't know if her aunt or sister are aware of the situation.
> 
> I also think I'm going to proceed with emailing their HR Dept. I have nothing to lose.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you're actually going to do it this time then this is the template you should use. It covers all the bases. This is from MB:



> *Workplace exposure letter - be sure and send to 3 key people and cc each on the letter. Good targets would be the Director of Human Resources, a key VP and both affairee's supervisor. This can be sent via registered letter or even via email!*
> 
> Developed by Brits Brat, board member and corporate attorney--
> 
> To Whom It May Concern:
> 
> This letter is to bring a matter to your attention that may be a violation of your Company's Code of Conduct and/or other policies, procedures and business ethics.
> 
> WS and WS are involved in an extramarital affair that is taking place, primarily, in the workplace. Aside from the potential sexual harassment claims this situation presents, it also involves the inappropriate use of company resources and assets. WS and WS are using company time and company resources to further their affair. If you check the call histories on their office and cell phones along with their workstation computers, you will find the two of them are spending an inordinate amount of what should be productive work time to further their sexual relationship.
> 
> If you have any questions, please call me at xxx-xxxx. Otherwise, I will anticipate a response from you once you have investigated these concerns and taken appropriate corrective action.
> 
> Regards,
> _________________________


----------



## Doyle

OK who told you this guy has issues (not your wife by any chance).

Your splitting and she's still lying, I would still want proof.
If for no other reason so she cant continue to deny to family and friends.
VAR in the spare room, you'll soon know what's going on.
Probably be helpful in the divorce too.

See how soon her attitude has changed you cant believe anything she says.

Go nuclear it's the only way you'll get any where, you've tried everything else.


----------



## helolover

frustratedman said:


> ....I'm really curious what she's telling her family, as they all love me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Blood is way thicker than water and they will never choose you over her. Never.

Even when presented by overwhelming evidence of her affair, they will still support her - and blame you.

Do not try and turn her family against her. Expose her affair, but keep it factual.

HL


----------



## frustratedman

3putt said:


> If you're actually going to do it this time then this is the template you should use. It covers all the bases. This is from MB:


My email looks similar to this but better. If I do this, she will look at everything as all out war, which it pretty much is anyways.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

Doyle said:


> OK who told you this guy has issues (not your wife by any chance).
> 
> Your splitting and she's still lying, I would still want proof.
> If for no other reason so she cant continue to deny to family and friends.
> VAR in the spare room, you'll soon know what's going on.
> Probably be helpful in the divorce too.
> 
> See how soon her attitude has changed you cant believe anything she says.
> 
> Go nuclear it's the only way you'll get any where, you've tried everything else.


I'm not splitting. I don't deserve to split. She does.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

helolover said:


> Blood is way thicker than water and they will never choose you over her. Never.
> 
> Even when presented by overwhelming evidence of her affair, they will still support her - and blame you.
> 
> Do not try and turn her family against her. Expose her affair, but keep it factual.
> 
> HL


I realize that her family won't ever go against her. What you're saying is don't expose.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

@;


frustratedman said:


> I realize that her family won't ever go against her. What you're saying is don't expose.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No he's saying expose but just give the facts. Don't try to make her look like a ho. While her family should have her back, we often see a lot of pressure applied to the cheating spouse by their family. It all depends on the morals and courage of the family.


----------



## Chaparral

This has just begun. Expose to HR and her family. When the tree gets shaken nice things might still fall out of it.

Who told you he was an alcoholic and couldn't keep a girl friend?


----------



## 3putt

frustratedman said:


> I realize that her family won't ever go against her. What you're saying is don't expose.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You (we) have no idea how they will react initially. Exposure just might put some pressure on her from her side of the family, at least for a while anyway, and that may be enough.

Just get the truth out there, *in one fell swoop*, and let the chips fall where they may. The only thing you know for certain is that you won't be any worse off than you are right now.


----------



## frustratedman

Chaparral said:


> This has just begun. Expose to HR and her family. When the tree gets shaken nice things might still fall out of it.
> 
> Who told you he was an alcoholic and couldn't keep a girl friend?


She told me he was an alcoholic at the time of d-day 1. She also told me that she was giving him tips about going on dates, etc., way back on d-day 1. In around 2012, I believe he was enguaged but they didn't end up getting married (I assume she broke it off). The guy is clearly a scummy piece of trash.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

Oh yeah, way back in d-day 1, after she basically gave him a NC letter, he sent her an email, which she forwarded to me. He said "Sorry if I caused trouble for you and your husband. I meant no harm." She forwarded that to me and actually doctored the email so his last name was removed. It was like "I already f'in know his full name for goodness sake." The level of deception from my wife has been astounding through this whole thing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## G.J.

frustratedman said:


> She told me he was an alcoholic at the time of d-day 1. She also told me that she was giving him tips about going on dates, etc., way back on d-day 1. In around 2012, I believe he was enguaged but they didn't end up getting married (I assume she broke it off). The guy is clearly a scummy piece of trash.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If your still in the mind to find any evidence if you were able to track down his ex via FB or other means she may well have finished with him because she found out about your wife and their affair..opps I mean friendship


----------



## frustratedman

G.J. said:


> If your still in the mind to find any evidence if you were able to track down his ex via FB or other means she may well have finished with him because she found out about your wife and their affair..opps I mean friendship


Already tried that. She had a very common name and I looked at his friend list. She wasn't on there, so I assume she doesn't have a fb account.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

Having trouble focusing at work. Might try to get short term disability for a couple weeks to be with my family. Need to lick my wounds and try to get my head on straight. I keep reminding myself that she's a deceptive liar and that she's not worth my love. The kid situation is killing me. They're definitely aware something's not right. So weird not having contact with my "wife." I'm sure POSOM told her about my FB message. Maybe she's afraid now, or thinking "if you do that, I'm going nuclear on you," not sure...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

> Maybe she's afraid now, or thinking "if you do that, I'm going nuclear on you," not sure...


You just have to take on the attitude that you do not care what they think or are afraid of.

You take the course of actions that will bring the best outcome for you and your kids.

It really is as simple as that.


----------



## frustratedman

Well, it would not be best for my kids if she lost her job.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

We've been emailing. She claims that I've been acting like a child for years and years and she's not going to live like this anymore. Minimizing the affair, no doubt. Whatever. I just want to be done with this and on to the next chapter of my life. Unfortunately, I'm afraid it's going to be a while...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

frustratedman said:


> Well, it would not be best for my kids if she lost her job.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think many of us would agree with you.


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## happyman64

frustratedman said:


> We've been emailing. *She claims that I've been acting like a child for years and years and she's not going to live like this anymore*. Minimizing the affair, no doubt. Whatever. I just want to be done with this and on to the next chapter of my life. Unfortunately, I'm afraid it's going to be a while...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


When she makes statements like that your answer should be "I'm sorry you feel that way."


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## turnera

Better yet, agree with her. Tell her you're looking forward to dating better women.


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## Chaparral

Another thing you can tell her is that the things she says are the things all cheaters make up to say to justify their adultry according to the internet.

Tell her there's a common script cheaters use and she is following it to a tee.

Blowing up their affair is much better for the kids than her losing her job might possibly hurt them. She will have to get another job anyway. Braking up the affair will keep your kids away from his immoral, sleazy a$$.


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## Chaparral

All your hearing from her is the fog cheaters are always in until the affair is over. All she's doing is proving is the posom is more important than her kids lives.

Start talking to her about sharing custody 50/50 and her getting a place to stay. 

Talk to your lawyer about keeping your kids away from the posom until after the divorce is complete.

Check out dadsdivorce.com


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## Dyokemm

"She claims that I've been acting like a child for years and years and she's not going to live like this anymore."

This is laughable.

Who exactly has been acting like a child?

Mature adults understand the importance of commitments and promises.....the absolute necessity of sacrificing for their children's happiness and future, and never doing anything to hurt them.

Your WW reminds me of a stupid teenager....and that's par for the course for cheaters.

Every one of them in every thread here on TAM seems to be incapable of 'owning their sh*t' and behaving like an adult.

One of the characteristics of childhood is egocentrism....the misguided idea that the world revolves around them.

It also seems to be the primary characteristic of a cheating POS.


----------



## Be smart

Your wife is puting blame on you,stop e-mailg her,only talk about kids.

Did you talk with your lawyer? Divorce and kids are the only thing you should think about.
Expose her affair to yor family,her family and your friends.
If you dont do that she will put all blame on you and everybody will think that you destroyed marriage,but we know it is her because she coudl not keep her legs closed.

Stay strong mate and keep moving forward,life is short to be vasted on your wife


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## Chaparral

From you're posts it doesn't sound like you have read the MMSLP book below.

You're not coming across as strong, courageous or decisive. I'm thinking this is what happened the first time and that's why you're here now.

Really, what man would continue to let his wife work with the other man in the first place? What man wouldn't out him to HR now? He's dealing death blows to your children's family and your simply walking away and giving him the keys to your life.

Fu=ck him and fu=ck their jobs. They want to play make them pay. There's also a good chance if you sound and act like a man, you might have a chance at saving your family.


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## AlmostDone821

First hugs to you frustrated man. I'm so sorry you are dealing with this. I just finished reading through this string. I can't believe how long you have dealt with this situation. I imagine that you have grown very angry over the last 7 years. It's really hard to live angry. Unfortunately until your wife owns her sh*!, you really don't have any other alternatives but to move forward. I have read those exposure articles on MB before and I'll be honest, I partially agree. Absolutely you need to have a conversation with her mother, but I would do it in person. Yes blood is thicker than water we know that but that doesn't mean she will condone her daughter's behavior. You could do this with the aunt and sister too. The reality is too that you have to see these people for the rest of your life because of your children. I'm not going to tell you whether or not you should out this OM to your children because I just don't know but either way they will find out eventually anyway. You mentioned that your 15 yr old was always at friend's houses in an earlier post. Is he angry and distant too? I ask this because make no mistake.......he knows more than you think especially if this has gone on for 7 years! Both of them most likely do. My son found his fathers emails that he was chatting with women he met on POF. He carried it for months and didn't know how to tell me. He admitted it when I found them. I was crushed!!!! The thing you need to put into perspective right now is this, once your children know about your wife's actions you are going to have power over their relationship with her and if you're not careful they will carry ALOT of BS into their adult lives. You must be super tired and worn out by now. I know you said the sex is the deal breaker but sex or no sex, your wife has been unavailable the whole time she has carried this on so you have to decide what you can live with. I applaud you for going to IC, I'm now on my 3rd one (long story). It comes down to making the choice not to be angry anymore and just letting it go and getting excited about your future. Unfortunately, she will be in it regardless of the choice you make. I would encourage you to follow the 180 plan and see how she responds to that. Focus on yourself and the children and make a plan with her so that you can at a minimum co-parent these kids so their hurt is minimized by this. Yes you can villianize her but in the long run it won't benefit you, it will only hurt your boys so take the high road and let them decide. Yes she has made a huge mistake but this is only a snapshot of her life, it's not fair to allow your kids to only see this one picture of her life when she has a whole photo album full of them.

As far as contacting HR.....I work in a large corporation and I've worked in small corporations. 7 years! Do you really think they don't know? C'mon people they know! Guess what as long as they are getting their crap done and there is no policy in the handbook against......yep you guessed it THEY DON'T CARE. Sorry all of the other posters but that's the truth. Unless they need a reason to get rid of one of them, nothing will come of it. 

God Bless


----------



## 3putt

AlmostDone821 said:


> As far as contacting HR.....I work in a large corporation and I've worked in small corporations. 7 years! Do you really think they don't know? C'mon people they know! Guess what as long as they are getting their crap done and there is no policy in the handbook against......yep you guessed it THEY DON'T CARE. Sorry all of the other posters but that's the truth. Unless they need a reason to get rid of one of them, nothing will come of it.
> 
> God Bless


The only thing you know is that your company doesn't care, and I wouldn't be too certain that they wouldn't start to care if the exposure was done right. 

You have NO way of knowing how any other corporation would react to this kind of news. On the other hand, we have seen first hand (many times) the power of exposure to the workplace. 

So, please........give us a break. We didn't all just fall off the turnip truck yesterday.


----------



## nursejackie

I too am so sorry you are here FM. I agree about HR thing. I work in a large place as well and the affairs are rampant. They go on for years some of them. No one gets fired -they just transfer out when it ends.

One went on for 17 years before the husband figured it out and said [email protected] or get off the pot. She decided to stay with her husband and retired to get out of the same place of employment. I see both of them at funerals and you could cut the tension with a knife. I am amazed at how the WS seems to despise the OM almost disgusted with him. I suspect it mirrors in part her disgust with her own behaviour now that she is out of the fog.

Everyone knew about it -but most were not aware of the extent of it- EA or PA. Gossip says EA for 16 1/2 years then PA which is when the BS found out and gave an ultimatum. This woman was the last person on earth you would ever suspect of doing something like that. 

Heres the strange part. Her daughter now works at our company and started an A with a colleague shortly after she was hired. Everyone knew about this as well. Many coworkers oddly treat them as a "couple" even though they went to the WS's wedding in the middle of it all. They have since divorced and I have heard the WS has been depressed and suicidal. 

Certainly gives support to the theory that there is a "cheating gene".


----------



## Chaparral

We've had all kind of posters here that have broken up affairs by exposing. As far as workplace affairs go, very few companies turn a blind eye. Some do. That's why teachers and nurses top the list in the cheating women categories.

The last time I was at a hospital I saw two people snuggling in a hallway. Both had wedding rings and were embarrassed I saw them.


----------



## ButtPunch

frustratedman said:


> We've been emailing. She claims that I've been acting like a child for years and years and she's not going to live like this anymore. Minimizing the affair, no doubt. Whatever. I just want to be done with this and on to the next chapter of my life. Unfortunately, I'm afraid it's going to be a while...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


FM

I am sorry you are going thru this as I like many others on here have been thru the emotional turmoil you are experiencing. I do not comment much anymore and usually just lurk from afar. However, you have compelled me to speak.

Frustrated do not entertain her with these emails anymore. Do not argue about who's acting like a child. The only communication she should get from you are divorce papers being delivered to her work. 

PLease take time and read the 180. When you are around her act like she is doing you a favor letting you go. Fake it until you make it. Things will get better I promise


All the Best 
BP


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

AlmostDone821 said:


> As far as contacting HR.....I work in a large corporation and I've worked in small corporations. 7 years! Do you really think they don't know? C'mon people they know! Guess what as long as they are getting their crap done and there is no policy in the handbook against......yep you guessed it THEY DON'T CARE. Sorry all of the other posters but that's the truth. Unless they need a reason to get rid of one of them, nothing will come of it.
> 
> God Bless


We have enough personal and anecdotal stories to know this is incorrect.. I've witnessed four people fired, in 2 separate incidents, over cheating and an affair.


----------



## frustratedman

Thanks to everyone for the thoughtful posts. At work on break right now, will post again later this evening...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AlmostDone821

3putt said:


> The only thing you know is that your company doesn't care, and I wouldn't be too certain that they wouldn't start to care if the exposure was done right.
> 
> You have NO way of knowing how any other corporation would react to this kind of news. On the other hand, we have seen first hand (many times) the power of exposure to the workplace.
> 
> So, please........give us a break. We didn't all just fall off the turnip truck yesterday.


Lol - you can disagree with me that's ok. I've read about the "exposure" strategy and we will just have to agree to disagree on it. I see it as nothing more than revenge. Honestly, I think that if a person has to go through all of that to get their WS to come out of the fog then maybe they just don't need to be with that person. I think the 180 plan is better and I'm not a fan of airing dirty laundry so someone can look like a pathetic fool to a WS co-workers. I'm a fan of the high road. Not to mention the kids - I just don't believe making a spectacle at someone's workplace is right. You always seem to work with someone that has kids at your kids school etc. And why would I want my spouse to get fired and have that ding on their record? For reconcialiation to take place they should want to actively seek new employment to show me they are willing to do whatever it takes to make it right. You can't strong arm someone into loving you.

BTW - I work with HR departments across many industries and I know a lot of HR mgrs and while I'm sure some may care, most have a lot more going on and better things to worry about. And unless it is written in the employee policy - then really what can they do about it? I'm sure some may get fired but if they do it's because it's written that employees cannot date etc. Many policies don't include this unless it's a subordinate. That's when you get into sexual harassment type issues.

As I said it's ok for us to disagree on this, I'm not interested in getting into a drawn out debate with you on it because honestly you won't change my mind and I won't change yours:smile2:


----------



## 3putt

AlmostDone821 said:


> Lol - you can disagree with me that's ok. I've read about the "exposure" strategy and we will just have to agree to disagree on it. I see it as nothing more than revenge. Honestly, I think that if a person has to go through all of that to get their WS to come out of the fog then maybe they just don't need to be with that person. I think the 180 plan is better and I'm not a fan of airing dirty laundry so someone can look like a pathetic fool to a WS co-workers. I'm a fan of the high road. Not to mention the kids - I just don't believe making a spectacle at someone's workplace is right. You always seem to work with someone that has kids at your kids school etc. And why would I want my spouse to get fired and have that ding on their record? For reconcialiation to take place they should want to actively seek new employment to show me they are willing to do whatever it takes to make it right. You can't strong arm someone into loving you.
> 
> BTW - I work with HR departments across many industries and I know a lot of HR mgrs and while I'm sure some may care, most have a lot more going on and better things to worry about. And unless it is written in the employee policy - then really what can they do about it? I'm sure some may get fired but if they do it's because it's written that employees cannot date etc. Many policies don't include this unless it's a subordinate. That's when you get into sexual harassment type issues.
> 
> As I said it's ok for us to disagree on this, I'm not interested in getting into a drawn out debate with you on it because honestly you won't change my mind and I won't change yours:smile2:


Okie Dokie. In spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary on this board and many others like it, I hereby declare you right.

Mo' better?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

No one is trying to change your mind, it's counter information for the Op.


AlmostDone821; said:


> yep you guessed it THEY DON'T CARE. Sorry all of the other posters but that's the truth. Unless they need a reason to get rid of one of them, nothing will come of it.


Blanket statements will get refuted. You said "all of the other posters." I am one of those "posters" who disagrees with your assertion, through my personal experience with and working for HR.


----------



## frustratedman

Regarding notifying hr, I haven't done so and don't know if I will. If she lost her job as a result of it, which I don't know if she would or not, there would be HUGE resentment and it may actually hurt me and the kids, for that matter.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 3putt

frustratedman said:


> Regarding notifying hr, I haven't done so and don't know if I will. If she lost her job as a result of it, which I don't know if she would or not, there would be HUGE resentment and it may actually hurt me and the kids, for that matter.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've got news for you, she already resents the hell out of you, pal. 

And would you care to explain how it would hurt you and the kids? You keep throwing that out there, but I haven't seen a real explanation as to why and how.


----------



## frustratedman

That said, I enjoyed messaging POSOM and it apparently made him squirm a bit.

As odd as it sounds, I STILL damn near believe her that it didn't get physical. I know it sounds weak and odd, but I just feel that it may be true. I know what you're all thinking. I'm crazy; it's been going on for too long, etc. But, I do know she's quite insecure about parts of her body after having kids, particularly, her breasts.

Then, the flip side of that coin says she will just NEVER admit it and take it to her grave... Hard to say.

Anyhow, right now I'm working on me. I'm doing it for me. 180... Working out and focusing on the kids. Work is a struggle, due to lack of focus, but I'm managing.

I want to again thank everyone for the posts through this ordeal. Some day the story will have an ending. Honestly, I listen to everyone's opinion, but at the end of the day, it's me who has to make the choices and live with my decisions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

3putt said:


> I've got news for you, she already resents the hell out of you, pal.
> 
> And would you care to explain how it would hurt you and the kids? You keep throwing that out there, but I haven't seen a real explanation as to why and how.


If she got fired, she would no longer have an income. Guess what? Someone has to pick up the slack. Guess who that would be? Figure it out yet? ME!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 3putt

frustratedman said:


> If she got fired, she would no longer have an income. Guess what? Someone has to pick up the slack. Guess who that would be? Figure it out yet? ME!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So she gets another job. Not like it's the end of the world or never happened before, ya' know?

But, hey, if that's your main priority, then that's okay with me.

Of course, you're going to be without her income soon anyway at the rate you're going, so........................


----------



## Chaparral

I don't agree in the least that exposure is revenge. Exposure is to break up an affair. IF and a big IF you want to save your marriage or keep the affair partner away from your kids.

It brings up an other question though. If a person wasn't willing to go after revenge, also known as justice, for breaking up someone's family what would a person think important enough to seek revenge/justice for?


----------



## 3putt

Chaparral said:


> I don't agree in the least that exposure is revenge. Exposure is to break up an affair. IF and a big IF you want to save your marriage or keep the affair partner away from your kids.
> 
> *It brings up an other question though. If a person wasn't willing to go after revenge, also known as justice, for breaking up someone's family what would a person think important enough to seek revenge/justice for?*


There's some food for thought. 

You could also put it as to what end will a man go to protect his balls and self esteem.

I'd sure like to see one man stand up for himself once around here. Those men are getting fewer and further between these days.

Pretty damned disgusting from where I sit.


----------



## bfree

frustratedman said:


> If she got fired, she would no longer have an income. Guess what? Someone has to pick up the slack. Guess who that would be? Figure it out yet? ME!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Which is more important, her losing that job and having to get another one or the affair continuing and her lover becomes part of your children's lives? Personally I'd want to end the affair at all costs but maybe you don't mind an alcoholic scumbag bringing up your children at least part of the time. I think the real reason you aren't exposing is because you're afraid of your wife. If she doesn't respect you how can the two of you co parent effectively?


----------



## Be smart

Again you didnt do anything.
You wont listen to us,you didnt read books,you still contact with her,you still belive in her lies about affair of 6-7 years.

Please man grow some balls and continue with your life.


----------



## convert

AlmostDone821 said:


> Lol - you can disagree with me that's ok. I've read about the "exposure" strategy and we will just have to agree to disagree on it. *I see it as nothing more than revenge.* Honestly, I think that if a person has to go through all of that to get their WS to come out of the fog then maybe they just don't need to be with that person. I think the 180 plan is better and I'm not a fan of airing dirty laundry so someone can look like a pathetic fool to a WS co-workers. I'm a fan of the high road. Not to mention the kids - I just don't believe making a spectacle at someone's workplace is right. You always seem to work with someone that has kids at your kids school etc. And why would I want my spouse to get fired and have that ding on their record? For reconcialiation to take place they should want to actively seek new employment to show me they are willing to do whatever it takes to make it right. You can't strong arm someone into loving you.
> 
> BTW - I work with HR departments across many industries and I know a lot of HR mgrs and while I'm sure some may care, most have a lot more going on and better things to worry about. And unless it is written in the employee policy - then really what can they do about it? I'm sure some may get fired but if they do it's because it's written that employees cannot date etc. Many policies don't include this unless it's a subordinate. That's when you get into sexual harassment type issues.
> 
> As I said it's ok for us to disagree on this, I'm not interested in getting into a drawn out debate with you on it because honestly you won't change my mind and I won't change yours:smile2:


exposure worked for me. It killed the affair and it gained me much needed support.
although in my case it was not a work place affair, so no HR

I did not do it out of revenge. It is the only thing I did right before i came here, dumb luck I guess.

you are right about the 180, it does work


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

bfree said:


> Which is more important, her losing that job and having to get another one or the affair continuing and her lover becomes part of your children's lives? Personally I'd want to end the affair at all costs but maybe you don't mind an alcoholic scumbag bringing up your children at least part of the time.


Yes. Go read Luvmyjava's thread. He wanted smooth and he got everything almost exactly the opposite. Including the scumbag living with his kids and insulting his parenting.


----------



## Dyokemm

I will never understand the argument against exposing or dishing out consequences because it is revenge.

IMO.....there is NOTHING wrong with vengeance.

Maybe if sh*tty people had to face some serious and life altering ramifications from the victims of their actions, these scumbags might think twice before ever f*cking with someone else ever again.

Too many passive people in this world IMO....all 'turning the other cheek' gets you is another smack in the face.


----------



## weightlifter

Dyokemm said:


> I will never understand the argument against exposing or dishing out consequences because it is revenge.
> 
> IMO.....there is NOTHING wrong with vengeance.
> 
> Maybe if sh*tty people had to face some serious and life altering ramifications from the victims of their actions, these scumbags might think twice before ever f*cking with someone else ever again.
> 
> Too many passive people in this world IMO....all 'turning the other cheek' gets you is another smack in the face.


The standard version is happiness is the best revenge.
Weightlifters version: happiness is the best revenge. While surveying the smoking ruins of the life of the guy who is fvcking your wife.


----------



## 3putt

weightlifter said:


> The standard version is happiness is the best revenge.
> Weightlifters version: happiness is the best revenge. *While surveying the smoking ruins of the life of the guy who is fvcking your wife.*


You'll never see me argue with that.


----------



## frustratedman

Well, after a TAM break, I felt compelled to give anyone willing to read a few updates. Even though this post is probably highly annoying to some, I have appreciated all the replies and support throughout.

So, this whole email thing was discovered on July 20th. That first three weeks was a living hell. I was severely depressed. I couldn't function at work or in many areas of my life.

At first, we were very angry at each other and she asked me to move out. I don't believe I've mentioned this up until now, but we rent our house. Ironically, we just signed another year lease right before this debacle. She initially asked me to move out. Ummmm... Hell no! If you want to leave, adios! That's the message I gave her. She can move in with her mom, who lives 5 minutes away. I have nowhere to go. My folks live 4 hours away and I've got this thing called a job.

So, after two weeks of letting our anger die down (at least somewhat), we talked and decided we owe it to the family to try a trial 3 month separation before divorcing. We currently live under the same roof. She's in the guest bedroom.

The day after this d-day #3 (I know, pathetic, right?) I needed to take the day off work and see a counselor on an emergency, day of, type of visit. Low and behold, the only counselor I could see on a day of type basis was the same one we had 4 years ago. When I told her the story, she said "tell her to pack her stuff and leave." Whoah - this came from a professional!

Anyhow, another item I haven't fully disclosed is that I mentioned my bald/hairloss issue, but I haven't mentioned that I had a transplant that looks like crap - doll hairish in the front. It was done in the late 90's. So this is a GIANT self esteem issue. In all fairness, my wife has asked me to do something about it many times. I just never found a viable solution, so I continued wearing a ball cap, nearly ALL the time. This has led to many problems in my life and my relationships. Yeah yeah yeah, everyone's gonna say "just shave your head!" I know, but unfortunately, it's not so simple after a transplant. There's a scar in the back of my head and the front would look messed up. I FINALLY found and have begun a solution and no it's not a hair hat - I refuse to go that route and it's not another transplant. So, by the end of November, I'll be rockin' what will appear to be a shaved head of full hair with no evidence of the transplant, which, by the way, I regret very much.

So, this is step one of working on myself, along with many other steps.

I have made a few attempts to discuss our future or my feelings with my wife and they have not been reciprocated well. Enough of that. Now, I'm basically sick and angry with her and focusing on myself (and the kids, of course). So, I believe I am doing a legit 180 right now.

Also, I have ordered a gps tracking key for her vehicle. If I find ONE THING that indicates trouble, I'm just done. I need to protect my heart at this point. I've been through enough.

I've been going to IC, which honestly has been helpful.

Then, right when this was happening in the beginning, this girl who was training us at work was clearly digging me, eyeing me up, etc. Then, she started IM'ing me. They don't care if I wear my hat at work, so I obviously wear it. I think I'm pretty good looking, minus the whole hair issue, and I'm in good shape. So we've kind of started talking quite a bit. She had a falling out with her long term boyfriend about 10 months ago. I guess it's a nice ego booster for me. She's not quite "my type" per say, but she's kind of cute and into me, which is more than I can say for my "wife."

I believe the chances of reconciliation are at about 25%. There has been MUCH damage done at this point. Plus, she knows that I exposed her "friendship" to all my family. I didn't tell her this, but she knows I wear my heart on my sleeve.

I'm going to start a new post out of fear that this one will be too long...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

In summary, I'm coming to realize that this marriage has been a sham for many years and it's likely to be done relatively soon.

I thought long and hard, reflecting on many things, about both myself and my wife.

Her big thing is that she feels I rely on her for happiness. I sort of understand that. Ever since the initial "emotional affair," in 2011, I've been trying to be a "superhusband," and I guess that's because I didn't want to lose her, so I tried too hard. I smothered her. Plus, I never feel we both fully processed the affair back then. That's partially my fault. I kind of let things slide in counseling, not wanting to grill her over every detail. I also feel she's responsible for this lack of processing because she's built up these emotional walls against me, I believe in an effort not to hurt my feelings and also out of feeling ashamed of herself. Then, top it off with my major self esteem problem, you've got a recipe for disaster!

Then, in regards to her... I believe she's having a midlife crisis. She doesn't know who she is or what she wants. She has zero passions in life, except for shopping with her mom, who also has zero passions in life. Neither of them have a hobby or major interest. Secondly, I believe she's got "daddy issues." I hate to use that term, but I think she feels somewhat abandoned by her dad, who is kind of a POS alcoholic who wasn't exactly a role model father. This has turned her into a woman who seeks approval/desire from men. She always gets all dolled up for work, with the heels, the makeup, etc. This DB at work knows exactly how to play her like a fiddle and she obviously likes it. Finally, she's lost her attraction to me. It's hard to say it, but it's clearly true. I am not a challenge. She HAD me wrapped around her finger and she knew it.

So, this has been quite the journey and it will be for some time to come. A lot of this has been hard to share, even with complete strangers on an online forum, but there it is, warts and all. I'll continue to post and thanks for everyone's support through this curveball life has thrown at me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

I keep remembering things I wanted to say!

So, as far as reconciliation, here's what I would need:

1. First of all, she would need to realize that she loves me, apologize profusely and say she wants to put her heart and soul into this marriage.

2. She would need to quit her job.

3. She would need to be able to break down her walls of communication with me. This includes answering all questions honestly.

4. We would need to do all the standard things to re-establish truat, like give me access to all her accounts, phone, etc.

5. We would definitely need to renew our vows... a ceremony, new rings, etc.

These are some tall orders, indeed. However, I'm keeping the possibility of hope alive, even though these thing will most likely not happen. I love this woman. I think that's quite clear at this point, however, that's obviously not how I'm acting to her. I'm full bore 180'ing her @$$!

The sad part about this is that we're finally doing well financially and in our jobs... So it goes.

Either way, I will come out stronger in the end!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

> Either way, I will come out stronger in the end!


This is key FM. You need to believe this. And most importantly your wife needs to see this attitude as well as feel it.

And stop worrying about your hair. If it bothers you then fix it.

For yourself. Not for your wife.

Keep moving forward.


----------



## Pluto2

frustratedman said:


> Then, in regards to her... I believe she's having a midlife crisis. She doesn't know who she is or what she wants. She has zero passions in life, except for shopping with her mom, who also has zero passions in life. Neither of them have a hobby or major interest. Secondly, I believe she's got "daddy issues." I hate to use that term, but I think she feels somewhat abandoned by her dad, who is kind of a POS alcoholic who wasn't exactly a role model father. This has turned her into a woman who seeks approval/desire from men. She always gets all dolled up for work, with the heels, the makeup, etc. This DB at work knows exactly how to play her like a fiddle and she obviously likes it. Finally, she's lost her attraction to me. It's hard to say it, but it's clearly true. I am not a challenge. She HAD me wrapped around her finger and she knew it_Posted via Mobile Device_


You say this about your wife (and I have absolutely no respect for cheaters).
well pot, meet kettle.
How's that cute girl at work who IM's you and is "clearly diggin" working out?

This is not going to end well.


----------



## Chaparral

Did you read the mmslp book linked to below? You are in need of it as bad as anyone that has ever come here.


----------



## frustratedman

Pluto2, you're right. It's not going to end well, most likely. However, the girl at my work and I are nowhere near having an affair of any sort. If we obtain each other's cell numbers and start texting a hundred times a day, then we've got an issue.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

Chaparral - I've read it twice but a 3rd time wouldn't hurt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Divinely Favored

She still gets dolled up to see POSOM at work and you still do not have access to all her accounts?!!!

Her affair never stopped! She is getting dolled up for him. You're nieve if you think this is not physical.


----------



## Be smart

I will say this again,you know about his affair for 4 years and maybe more and you did nothing.
Every day,every single day you see your wife go to work all dooled up for this OM and you still keep quiet.

Good luck to you if you want to stay with this woman.


----------



## turnera

If you've read mmslp 2 times and still aren't man enough to tell your wife to stop or lose you, you don't need to read it again. You need to go to a therapist and find your self respect and mojo.


----------



## JohnA

FM
First pluto 2 is right when he says "this is not going to end well". Stop IMing this new women. You are doing the same shyt as your wife! Four of the wrost types of people in order are: pedophile, rapist, cheaters who were cheated on, cheaters. Are you worst then your wife? iM her, tell her how much she has come to mean to her but until the marriage is over you need to cease communication. A lot of folks here see you as weak, continue on with this women and I have to agree with them. 

Second: by not telling your sons you are gas lighting them just as your wife has you for the last seven years. As for care taker, what does she do you can't. And I question how you can be a great dad for the last seven years with your life in crisis. Ive read how it has bled over into your work, please list how it effected your family life. 

Third: she has massive daddy issues. PERIOD. She has been with this guy for years. By staying married and allowing your sons to live a lie you are enabling her affair. Her research from years ago proves it. 

At this point she is a WAW how just has not walked. Stop taking about this issue. It only pushes her away and in her mind justifies it. Just detach, 

More later but until then, stop IMing.


----------



## Dyokemm

frustrated,

The one piece of advice that you have been given from the beginning, expose the A totally to both your families, is one you still haven't done.

And then you wonder why she continues to be angry and short with you, showing little interest in actually fixing anything.

Well no wonder, she STILL hasn't faced one consequence for how she has destroyed your M and your family's future.....not even the shame of disapproval and anger from friends and family who confront her about what the h*ll does she think she is doing.

One day, you are going to look back on this period of your life and realize this was your biggest mistake.


----------



## turnera

Wait, what? You never exposed? Oy vey. No WONDER you're in hell.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Ahhhh, this explains so many of her actions.


----------



## JohnA

Turnera, yea right, you know?!!?

FM, if her dad did in fact hurt her mom, like she has you, what makes you think she won't react like Odat's WW parents. Take a moment read page two or three. If that marriage is saved, it will because the mother confused her shame and the father his pain. 

You are using this forum as a cope out to avoid dealing with the reality of your life. The water is cold, but you will adept and flourish, so take the plunge.


----------



## Dyokemm

turnera said:


> Wait, what? You never exposed? Oy vey. No WONDER you're in hell.


If he has....I sure haven't read a post that said so.

It wasn't in his update.

In July, he had a lot of posts about how he was preparing to do it....I think he even said he composed an exposure email for his MIL and SIL.

My understanding of his posts is that he did finally tell his own parents and family when he thought D was imminent at the end of July....remember him saying his mom was crying a lot about it.

But nothing after that about her family or their friends.....the ones most likely to question and confront her bullsh*t.

He has avoided exposure like the plague for years.....and the final price for that will probably be his M.


----------



## 3putt

Dyokemm said:


> If he has....I sure haven't read a post that said so.
> 
> It wasn't in his update.
> 
> In July, he had a lot of posts about how he was preparing to do it....I think he even said he composed an exposure email for his MIL and SIL.
> 
> My understanding of his posts is that he did finally tell his own parents and family when he thought D was imminent at the end of July....remember him saying his mom was crying a lot about it.
> 
> But nothing after that about her family or their friends.....the ones most likely to question and confront her bullsh*t.
> 
> He has avoided exposure like the plague for years.....and the final price for that will probably be his M.


He's simply one (like many others before him) that has convinced himself that his situation is somehow different than all the others out there.

It's sad to watch, and the outcome oh so predictable, but what can you do?


----------



## Dyokemm

3putt said:


> He's simply one (like many others before him) that has convinced himself that his situation is somehow different than all the others out there.
> 
> It's sad to watch, and the outcome oh so predictable, but what can you do?


Yes....I agree.

And I find it completely mystifying.

A BS comes to an infidelity advice board in pain and confusion, with lots of doubts and unanswered questions.....totally NORMAL for someone in that spot.

They ask for help and insight....get the same advice from an overwhelming majority of the posters who have already been through this before....

And they ignore it.

I'll never understand it.


----------



## NotLikeYou

Dyokemm said:


> Yes....I agree.
> 
> And I find it completely mystifying.
> 
> A BS comes to an infidelity advice board in pain and confusion, with lots of doubts and unanswered questions.....totally NORMAL for someone in that spot.
> 
> They ask for help and insight....get the same advice from an overwhelming majority of the posters who have already been through this before....
> 
> And they ignore it.
> 
> I'll never understand it.


I don't recall OP actually asking for advice- generally, you put your questions out there at the start of the thread, and if you go back and read the first page, you'll find that help and insight were never requested.

Consider the thread title. Our hero expected to be paid many uncomplimentary observations from the get-go. It suggests that he has a sense of right and wrong, and knows that he is being done wrong, and responding wrongly.

But actions speak so much louder than words........

A year ago, he couldn't make his wife quit her job because "the economy." Someone insulted and upset at being betrayed multiple times would at least tighten things up over 12 months and force that change.

FrustratedPerson isn't here for advice on what to do, and any recommendations towards becoming a more healthy and balanced man are wasted effort. He likes himself just the way he is. I mean, he's certainly gotten enough suggestions on ways to change that if he really wanted to be different, he would have tried some of them out.

OP is mildly distressed that his wife doesn't love him, and that she likes having sex with other men. And he needs a venue to complain. Welcome to TAM.

Dyokemm, the mental disconnect is this- you read the story and think "If I, Dyokemm, found myself in this situation, here is what I would do," and then you offer those conclusions as advice, and you expect them to make sense to OP because they make sense to you.

Frustratedperson is only frustrated by a situation that you, and most people, would find enraging and intolerable. It bothers him much less than it would bother you.

So you sit there and think "WTF is WRONG with this guy," while OP sits there and thinks "I forgot to mention the thing about my hair."

You might as well be speaking different languages.


----------



## Dyokemm

NotLikeYou said:


> I don't recall OP actually asking for advice- generally, you put your questions out there at the start of the thread, and if you go back and read the first page, you'll find that help and insight were never requested.
> 
> Consider the thread title. Our hero expected to be paid many uncomplimentary observations from the get-go. It suggests that he has a sense of right and wrong, and knows that he is being done wrong, and responding wrongly.
> 
> But actions speak so much louder than words........
> 
> A year ago, he couldn't make his wife quit her job because "the economy." Someone insulted and upset at being betrayed multiple times would at least tighten things up over 12 months and force that change.
> 
> FrustratedPerson isn't here for advice on what to do, and any recommendations towards becoming a more healthy and balanced man are wasted effort. He likes himself just the way he is. I mean, he's certainly gotten enough suggestions on ways to change that if he really wanted to be different, he would have tried some of them out.
> 
> OP is mildly distressed that his wife doesn't love him, and that she likes having sex with other men. And he needs a venue to complain. Welcome to TAM.
> 
> Dyokemm, the mental disconnect is this- you read the story and think "If I, Dyokemm, found myself in this situation, here is what I would do," and then you offer those conclusions as advice, and you expect them to make sense to OP because they make sense to you.
> 
> Frustratedperson is only frustrated by a situation that you, and most people, would find enraging and intolerable. It bothers him much less than it would bother you.
> 
> So you sit there and think "WTF is WRONG with this guy," while OP sits there and thinks "I forgot to mention the thing about my hair."
> 
> You might as well be speaking different languages.


lol....yeah, very insightful about this OP's thread.

My last comment was really more of a general comment of something we see so often here on TAM, hence why I used the generic BS rather than specifically OP......I was responding to 3putt who mentioned in the post before mine it is something we see often on threads here.

But I think your analysis of OP's situation is likely true.


----------



## NotLikeYou

Jokes are always fun, and there is a joke that I have always found hilarious, and, sadly, applicable to many people who post on TAM, including OP.

Enjoy-


So this hunter goes into the woods to hunt a bear and takes with him his trusty 22-gauge rifle. 

After a little while, he spots a very large bear, takes aim, and fires. When the smoke clears, though, the bear is gone. 

A moment later the bear taps this guy on the shoulder and says, “No one shoots at me and gets away with it. You have two choices: I can either rip your throat out and eat you alive, or you can drop your trousers, bend over, and I’ll do you in the ass.” 

The hunter figures that anything is better than death, so he drops his trousers, bends over, and the bear delivers on his promise. 

After the bear leaves, the hunter pulls up his trousers and staggers into town vowing revenge. 

He buys a much larger gun and returns to the forest. He sees the same bear, takes aim, and fires. When the smoke clears, the bear once again is gone. A moment later, the bear taps him on the shoulder and says, “You know what to do.” 

Afterwards, the hunter pulls up his trousers and crawls back into town. Now he’s really mad, so he buys himself a bazooka. 

He returns to the forest, sees the bear, aims, and fires. 

When the smoke clears this time, the bear taps him on the shoulder and says, “You’re not REALLY here for the hunting are you?”

:grin2:


----------



## dental

OP, your WW is not your problem, you are your problem.


----------



## MattMatt

dental said:


> OP, your WW is not your problem, you are your problem.


Actually his WW is his problem.

How he deals with her may be his problem.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

NotLikeYou said:


> I don't recall OP actually asking for advice- generally, you put your questions out there at the start of the thread, and if you go back and read the first page, you'll find that help and insight were never requested.


Sorry, I disagree.



> Like many before, I'm a long time dweller, first time poster. I guess I just want to share my story, vent and see if anyone has something to add that I might have overlooked.


Yes, to me, he is asking for advice.

I agree with the rest of your post.


----------



## JohnA

OMG notlikeyou yes the OP is the hunter. Oh good noise spray over the whole room.

Thank you.


----------



## frustratedman

I'm not trying to anger anyone... I'm really not!

Yes - I clearly have a deep psychological issue with my self esteem. I'm working on that. I admit that I'm not the man I once was. My IC says that's my major problem and that I need to look at my positives more than I do.

So you guys can bash me and call me what you want. I have read every post on this thread and I have learned things from TAM. I have acted on some of them but not all of them.

I'm very lonely and angry with myself because a lot of what has been said may be true. I realize I haven't done everything correctly by the book.

I DID pen an email to her mom and to her work. I didn't send them. When we talked, she told me that she admitted her friendship crossed the line to her mom and I believe it because she was crying. Call me a sucker. I thought long and hard about exposure. The bottom line is that if I notified all her friends , I believe they would look at me as being a manipulative psycho. That's the answer as to why I haven't exposed.

Regarding the hair thing, I didn't forget to mention it. It's a very hard thing for me to talk about. You know what it's like to wear a hat 99% of your life (while you're awake anyhow) for a 20 year period of time? Didn't think so! This whole hair thing has damn near destroyed me. But, now I'm FINALLY doing something I hope will help me make a transformation in my life. I want to become a strong, confident, not needy man. Right now, I'm admittedly not! It's a work in progress...

I have also learned that I need to verify what the hell she's doing. I have ordered a gps. The VAR thing wouldn't work in her vehicle.

So, if you think that I'm taking this lightly and don't care about it, you're wrong. This whole thing has shattered me to the core, then add the hair deal and it's obviously huge.

In summary, you're right. I realized as soon as I made this thread, there would be some bashing. I have gotten that. It's a good thing though because I realize you are probably more right than I am. It's just that I can't really move forward until I love myself, which, as you can see, I don't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marc878

Full exposure.

But by this time I doubt she has any respect left for you.

Baldness isn't your problem it's being weak. Very unattractive to women.

Only you can fix that. Enough said.


----------



## bfree

Why isn't telling her friends and family the truth the first and most important condition of reconciliation. Who cares how her friends view you? If they are true friends then they will tell her to get her act together. If they react like you say they will then they are toxic and need to be cut out of your lives. And if her mother already knows what harm can come of you sending the letter? As for her job, I would think if you truly want to reconcile you'd force her hand regarding leaving that employer.


----------



## turnera

So, in your state of low self esteem, of not believing YOU are worth marrying, you feel you can't expose because they will think YOU are stupid. Right?

Do you see how the two things are connected? YOU don't believe in yourself, so you assume THEY won't believe in what you say.

Maybe you could just accept that the people here HAVE EXPERIENCE, know what we are talking about, have seen hundreds of marriages JUST LIKE YOURS, and know that exposure WILL HELP YOUR MARRIAGE.

In your state of no-self-esteem, it's obviously hard to believe that. Why would she want to stay married to you if you stand up to her?

But let me tell you, as a woman, that women DESPISE weak men. It's just a fact of nature; goes back to caveman days. We HAVE TO HAVE STRONG MEN. If our man is weak or becomes weak, we come to hate him. Want to leave him. Become willing to cheat on him. ANYTHING, just to get him to wake up and BE A MAN!

And what is a man? Someone who WILL NOT SHARE his wife. Someone who gets MAD at her for cheating. Someone who says HIM OR ME - I won't share you. Someone who tells her parents and siblings what she's doing and says 'if you don't wake her up and get her to stop, I'm out of here.'

Become THAT man, and you may have a chance at saving your marriage.


----------



## BrokenLady

Let me first say I'm a BS. That should make me bias?

I've only recently started reading forums like this. Something that has hit me is the fact that so many BS advising people with marital issues isn't always a good thing! If there is definitely betrayal gong on its great but I have yet to read a thread that doesn't jump to the conclusion that the poster is correct in their suspicions.

Can I play devils advocate? What if it's just a 'friendship' that's occasionally drifted close to flirtation & been shut down? Under pressure & trying to save her marriage she's accepted it 'could' be perceived as an emotional 'affair'...because of the secrecy & her H low self esteme? 
Just looking at it from a different angle... She's spent years, YEARS! Being accused of something she hasn't done. Dealing with her H depression & paranoia. Her FATHER figure died!!! Maybe, just maybe, her disfunctional upbringing made her a woman (like me) who LOVES & finds enormous comfort & attraction to a type B (whatever) man. She's endured hair transplants, gym body building etc. that she never wanted. She loved him just the way he was. He describes her as being a care giver, the kind of woman who likes 'projects' & taking broken birds to fix them. This 'friend' is a VERY broken bird. 

I don't mean to start a fight but I've just read over 500 posts that really don't amount to much. As I said I'm a BS. Maybe a very gulable one (I admit that!) but I have found myself doubting the OPs perspective & actually feeling sorry for his wife! She had this 'friend' for 7 years! As her H pulls further & further away the only consistent thing she's had, through all of the pain in her life, is this friend! 

There's PROOF tht he's tried to help him in dating. Tried to help his drinking & other issues. 

I'm sorry if I'm completely wrong but I just feel like I have to say something. This OP is a real person with a family NOT a soap opera. He's pushing away & judging the woman he's loved all of his adult life when she needs him the most. She's experienced a monumental loss (her father figure) needing love & support while the whole time trying to PROVE something didn't happen. 

These forums always say the partner isn't telling the truth. I've read "If they say they held hands.. they kissed. If they say they kissed.. there was sexual contact..." etc. No one is EVER telling the truth. Shes the enemy because she won't 'confess' to a PA...What if she's telling the truth?? 
The 180 is advised but to a partner who feels they're not trusted & being pushed away isn't that just confirming their fear that they're being alienated & rejected by their partner? Ugh! I don't know. I'm just worried that I've just read over 500 posts on how to destroy a loving relationship by encouraging an OP with very low self esteme in his paranoia. 

What if she's ONLY guilty of just having a close friendship with a coworker for 7 years? A friend who was there when the closest thing to a father she ever had died? A friend who's been there while she's spent YEARS being accused of something she never did?

Sorry if I'm wrong. I really am.


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## bfree

I guess the way I see it is if you wouldn't say it or do it in front of your spouse it's a betrayal. Plain and simple. And I don't distinguish between degrees of betrayal. Something most people don't understand until it happens to them is that it's not necessarily the act itself that does the most damage. It's the deceit. It's the secrets. It's the way the spouse is treated during the betrayal. That's what erodes trust, sometimes irreparably. That's what drives a wedge between spouses. That's the poison that slowly kills the relationship. I've seen marriages end because one spouse will not give up their EA partner even when there's no chance of a relationship developing. I've seen couples split due to marital interference from an individual with divergent sexual preferences. I've seen marriages end because coworkers have stronger "friendships" than the couple. The common denominator is that the marriage ended or was irreparably damaged. And there's plenty of that in this thread.


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## BrokenLady

I'm a BS & I completely agree with you. The devastation is beyond anything I could of ever imagined in my worst nightmare. I'm not condoning EAs by any definition. I'm just saying that the OP's reactions, behavior, since the discovery of this 'friendship' has been so convoluted that I think he's made a bad (but 'fixable') disaster in his M a lot worse.... If she's telling the truth he's just backed her into a horrible corner at a terrible time in her life. If she's telling the truth I feel bad for her. She has spent her life with the OP & his insecurities. She has loved him & they've had a great marriage.


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## Dyokemm

BrokenLady said:


> I'm a BS & I completely agree with you. The devastation is beyond anything I could of ever imagined in my worst nightmare. I'm not condoning EAs by any definition. I'm just saying that the OP's reactions, behavior, since the discovery of this 'friendship' has been so convoluted that I think he's made a bad (but 'fixable') disaster in his M a lot worse.... If she's telling the truth he's just backed her into a horrible corner at a terrible time in her life. If she's telling the truth I feel bad for her. She has spent her life with the OP & his insecurities. She has loved him & they've had a great marriage.


I don't think OP's case is an innocent 'friendship'.

Even his WW has admitted to inappropriate flirting and conversations, an EA.....she just denies it ever went PA despite some sketchy communications that OP found that suggest otherwise.

And in addition, there is the fact that she agreed to stop talking to POSOM in MC after admitting the EA....and then went ahead and deceitfully continued to talk to the scumbag for several years.

The sketchy communications OP has seen, combined with the length of the EA, and the fact that his WW has faced not one consequence because he just refuses to expose...all these lead me to suspect that this has actually been a PA for quite awhile.

OP is just terrified of exposing the A and demanding an end to this nonsense.....and his inaction has probably cost him any real chance of saving his M.


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## frustratedman

Listen... If I go telling her friends that she is having an "emotional affair," many of them will question what that even means. I have no solid "proof" of an actual affair. I know her friends and know exactly what they'll do, which is protect her and think I'm a nut job. I talked to my best friend, who knows the entire situation and knows the people involved. I told him that I'm getting flack from this forum. He agrees that it is not wise to expose to her friends. It would be extremely foolish. If I had smoking gun evidence of an affair, that's a different ball game.

To Brokenlady - we were married AFTER the transplant. It was a huge mistake for me to do it. Unfortunately, I was young at the time and thought it would solve my problems and it did for a while, until I lost more hair. People do stuff to improve themselves all the time. People get stomach bands (or whatever they're called), nose jobs, boob jobs, etc. So she knew exactly who I was, etc. So, your assessment is incorrect. Honestly, if I would have known about this new option previously, I would have done it. I just discovered it recently. I'm now doing this for myself. It's going to lift a large weight off my shoulders.

I think that people sometimes get tunnel vision and think there is only one way to do things. I understand the logic behind exposure. In this case, it will only push her farther away. She may be out the door already... I don't know. But, if I go around sounding like an idiot to her friends? Then I am most certainly putting a nail in the coffin.

Along with that, if I do receive information from the GPS that confirms anything (for example, her going to his place), then I may expose. I'm doing that for ine reason alone... For my own knowledge. If I find that she went to his place, I am 100% done. If I don't find anything negative, then I have more peace of mind and can continue focusing on myself and my kids. I realize that this option doesn't eliminate the possibility of physical contact, however, it's the best option that I've got right now.

To those of you who say she's lost respect for me, I couldn't agree more. She has flat out admitted that she has disrespected me and has thrown away any trust I had in her.

As said a million times before, that's the most painful part of an affair - the lying and betrayal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## eastsouth2000

full exposure is important to have people face reality.

you have irrational fears about exposure.

if there is no exposure there is no facing of reality.

everyone still in wonderland.

failure to expose will back fire worst. you will end up being the one to blame for the flawd relationship.

you have to clear your name to everyone. including her bff's
of course they will side with HER but deep down they at least understand you.

it is important to expose as that she will not have a chance to ruin your reputation.


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## frustratedman

NotLikeYou said:


> Jokes are always fun, and there is a joke that I have always found hilarious, and, sadly, applicable to many people who post on TAM, including OP.
> 
> Enjoy-
> 
> 
> So this hunter goes into the woods to hunt a bear and takes with him his trusty 22-gauge rifle.
> 
> After a little while, he spots a very large bear, takes aim, and fires. When the smoke clears, though, the bear is gone.
> 
> A moment later the bear taps this guy on the shoulder and says, “No one shoots at me and gets away with it. You have two choices: I can either rip your throat out and eat you alive, or you can drop your trousers, bend over, and I’ll do you in the ass.”
> 
> The hunter figures that anything is better than death, so he drops his trousers, bends over, and the bear delivers on his promise.
> 
> After the bear leaves, the hunter pulls up his trousers and staggers into town vowing revenge.
> 
> He buys a much larger gun and returns to the forest. He sees the same bear, takes aim, and fires. When the smoke clears, the bear once again is gone. A moment later, the bear taps him on the shoulder and says, “You know what to do.”
> 
> Afterwards, the hunter pulls up his trousers and crawls back into town. Now he’s really mad, so he buys himself a bazooka.
> 
> He returns to the forest, sees the bear, aims, and fires.
> 
> When the smoke clears this time, the bear taps him on the shoulder and says, “You’re not REALLY here for the hunting are you?”
> 
> :grin2:


Just FYI, in case you ever tell this joke again, a 22 gauge riffle doesn't exist. It would be a 22 caliber rifle. Perhaps you meant a 20 gauge shotgun? I know that's not the point but just sayin'!
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

frustratedman said:


> Listen... If I go telling her friends that she is having an "emotional affair," many of them will question what that even means. I have no solid "proof" of an actual affair. I know her friends and know exactly what they'll do, which is protect her and think I'm a nut job. I talked to my best friend, who knows the entire situation and knows the people involved. I told him that I'm getting flack from this forum. He agrees that it is not wise to expose to her friends. It would be extremely foolish. If I had smoking gun evidence of an affair, that's a different ball game.


First, I'm pretty sure I told you to expose to her FAMILY, not her gaggle of friends whose job it is to support her. It's her FAMILY who can beget guilt in her, who will be disappointed in her, not her friends.

Regarding exposure and your assumption that we are saying there's only one way to do things (meaning you're scared to expose and don't want to), let me tell you this. I've been advising betrayed husbands for more than 10 years now. I've seen at least 1,000 men come through forums like this. And I will tell you something. There IS A SCRIPT. It is psychological, what cheaters do. It's a process the human brain goes through as one considers, then decides to cheat (unless they're just pathological or a serial cheater). Part of that is compartmentalizing what they are doing, vilifying their spouse so they have a 'good reason' to cheat, thus removing most if not all of the guilt. IT IS A FANTASY. Now, what exposure does is it smacks the cheater in the face with 'that look' from their mother or father, shows him/her the disappointment in his/her little brother/sister who 'used' to look up to them, or the older sibling who had high hopes for lil sis. THAT is what has the psychological punch to make a cheater go 'Whoa! What the hell am I doing?!' Nothing else has that much power. It SURE won't come from their SPOUSE asking them to stop - they've already written the spouse off as the CAUSE for the cheating. It must come from people whose respect they crave - family, _best]/i] friend, or pastor.

Second, if you don't have proof, sh*t or get off the pot. Pay for a PI and get it over with one way or the other. If the PI can't find anything, there's nothing to find and BrokenLady is right.

Third, as BrokenLady says, half of this is your fault for your low self esteem. Even if you were to get her to quit, you, in your current shape, aren't offering much to give it up for - morose, depressed, hate yourself, think she can do better...

have you picked out a psychologist yet? That's the first best step you can take to fix your marriage._


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## frustratedman

Ok, so she's already told her mom and she felt like crap. Tellng her sister is eqivolent to telling her friends; she's 12 years younger. I don't know if she has admitted this or not to her sister. Then there's her aunt, which again, I'm not sure if she has told the entire truth.

About the low self esteem thing, yes it's an issue. But right now it's under my own magnifying glass. In other words, wearing the hat has been "business as usual," for a long time. I was confident in all other areas (job, friends, relationships, etc.). The hat DID hold me back though!

PI? Unfortunately, a. I don't have thousands to spend on that and b. this is why I'm going the GPS route.

I do have "proof" of her betraying me and she has admitted it.

In summary, I believe that I have and continue to take positive steps. I'm doing IC, started my hair process, doing the 180, detaching, learning to love myself more and realize what I have to offer/my good qualities. It is not an over night process.

Our mariage has broken down over a long period of time. If it is salvageable, it's going to taken a long period of time to fix. If it's not, I know I've tried my best. If I discover her friendship has "blossomed" or become physical, I'm 100% done. I know that she realizes the devistation that divorce will bring. We're both utilizing this space and time apart in whatever way we see fit. I know what that looks like for me. I'm not sure about her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

frustratedman said:


> Ok, so she's already told her mom and she felt like crap. Tellng her sister is eqivolent to telling her friends; she's 12 years younger. I don't know if she has admitted this or not to her sister. Then there's her aunt, which again, I'm not sure if she has told the entire truth.


This is not at all what I said.

I said that YOU go to her mom and tell her the truth. If she told her mom anything, it was that you've been a horrible husband and this man was kind and honorable and it just happened by accident.

Telling her sister is NOT equivalent to telling her friends because SHE IS HER SISTER. They grew up together, there are feelings of respect and admiration - one for the other, either way, doesn't matter. Tell her sister. Tell her aunt.

Go to them all, sit them down, tell them what she's doing and tell them that you WANT to stay married, but that a third person in the marriage is keeping the truth from coming out. Tell them that you are willing to look at your faults as well as hers, as long as she gives up the other man first. You're willing to go to therapy, you're willing to make changes, but you will NOT do it if she continues to see OM. Then tell them that, after all that, if she still doesn't see the marriage as worth saving, you will walk away and let her have her happiness without you, but that it is not fair to just walk away without her first removing the OM.

Then go away and see what happens. They will either talk to her, or they will defend her; you just never know. But no matter what, even if you divorce, if she tries to bring this jerk around her family, THEY WILL KNOW who he is and what he did.


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## BrokenLady

Honestly it sounds like he's done everything to push her away. Push her to the friend. Push her to divorce. If that's what he wants GREAT! But he sounds like he wants her back.


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## BrokenLady

If she's telling the truth!


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## frustratedman

Brokenlady - I'm sorry but I take accountibility for 50% of our marriage problems. I take 0% responsibility for her (at minimim) emotional afair. If the hair thing was that big of a problem, she could have said "if you don't fix your issue in x amount of time, I don't think I can carry on with our marriage." In regards to her "friendship," she could have said "I started talking to him again, against your wishes, we need to address this," versus carrying on, behind my back, knowing DAMN WELL that it was a clear violation of what we had previously agreed upon. She chose not to tell me these things because SHE has psychological issues, as do I. So you can think that I'm pushing her to do whatever, but it's simply not true.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

turnera said:


> This is not at all what I said.
> 
> I said that YOU go to her mom and tell her the truth. If she told her mom anything, it was that you've been a horrible husband and this man was kind and honorable and it just happened by accident.
> 
> Telling her sister is NOT equivalent to telling her friends because SHE IS HER SISTER. They grew up together, there are feelings of respect and admiration - one for the other, either way, doesn't matter. Tell her sister. Tell her aunt.
> 
> Go to them all, sit them down, tell them what she's doing and tell them that you WANT to stay married, but that a third person in the marriage is keeping the truth from coming out. Tell them that you are willing to look at your faults as well as hers, as long as she gives up the other man first. You're willing to go to therapy, you're willing to make changes, but you will NOT do it if she continues to see OM. Then tell them that, after all that, if she still doesn't see the marriage as worth saving, you will walk away and let her have her happiness without you, but that it is not fair to just walk away without her first removing the OM.
> 
> Then go away and see what happens. They will either talk to her, or they will defend her; you just never know. But no matter what, even if you divorce, if she tries to bring this jerk around her family, THEY WILL KNOW who he is and what he did.


You have to understand, I have known her sister since she was 5 years old. I have known her aunt for 25 years. I KNOW these people really well and I know EXACTLY how they will react and I know they will tell my wife. Then, I know exactly how my wife will view it. THAT would drive her further away! So again, exposure may work in most cases. I do not believe that it will yield good results in my situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

My wife would view that as being incredibly weak and manipulative! It wouldn't "snap" her into reality. She is unhappy and I think she's trying to figure out who she is. If she thinks that self destructing our marriage and family will help, that's on her!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

frustratedman said:


> You have to understand, I have known her sister since she was 5 years old. I have known her aunt for 25 years. I KNOW these people really well and I know EXACTLY how they will react and I know they will tell my wife. Then, I know exactly how my wife will view it. THAT would drive her further away!


:banghead:

OMG!

They are SUPPOSED to tell her! That's the whole POINT of exposing!#@[email protected]!

They are supposed to go to her and say 'What the hell are you doing?! We raised you better than that! You're throwing away a great man...for WHAT?'

That is the POINT of exposing - to get HER to see that her cheating IS WRONG.

And of course she'll be mad at you! That's the point! She has to come to a crossroads where she sees one path - keep cheating and lose the respect of everyone in my life - or the other path - end the affair and see what my honorable options are.

I get it, fm. With your low self esteem, you can't understand that she would choose you. And maybe she won't. That's why you're afraid to make her angry. But your marriage can survive her anger; it can't survive a third person. And if I had a dollar for every betrayed man who has come here and said 'but it will push her away' I'd be rich. But that simply isn't the truth. You came here for advice - advice from people who have seen it all before. So I'm telling you, exposure is the ONLY chance you have to stay married. I know you're scared. I know you don't believe in yourself. So believe those of us who have seen it a thousand times: if you don't give her a consequence for cheating, one of two things will happen:

Either you will disgust her SO much by being such a doormat and letting her cheat that she will leave you herself because she won't be able to stand to be around you any more, or she will lose ALL feeling for you and you will literally turn INTO a doormat that she stomps her feet on day in and day out but keeps you around for your money.

Is that what you want?


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## bfree

Wow...just WOW. Just divorce FM because you are slowly killing your marriage anyway. You are like the guy who is so afraid of falling down a manhole that you avoid it by stepping out into the street and get crushed by a truck.


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## farsidejunky

bfree said:


> Wow...just WOW. Just divorce FM because you are slowly killing your marriage anyway. You are like the guy who is so afraid of falling down a manhole that you avoid it by stepping out into the street and get crushed by a truck.


This. In spades.


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## Be smart

You still think she is in EA with this guy.
You found out about them 4 years ago !!!!! It is going on more then that,trust me.

You are puting blame on you,just like your wife wants to.

Good luck to you my man,you will need it.


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## Chaparral

Why would t a var work in her car or home?


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## frustratedman

Well as far as the car, under the seat, I scoped it out. I'm pretty sure it would be visible if she dropped something. She's a bit clutzy so I could see her finding it.

In the house? Yeah I could pull that off but there are too many variables... Which room? She would only have an incriminating conversation if both myself and the kids were gone, which is sort of rare.

Anyhow, I don't really care if peoplw insult me on this forum. I realize that, at this time, my confidence level just isn't where it needs to be to pull some of the suggestions off. I'm working on it and I will say that I'm getting some of my mojo back.

So, it is what it is. Some day I will be able to look back on this whole situation and realize that I WAS pathetic and laugh it off. And I will post again. Mark my words on that... Off to the gym!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tom67

Frustrated progress not perfection.:smile2:
This is YOUR path.


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## Chaparral

Most all the folks here have used heavy duty velcro to place a var under the seat or somewhere under the dash. Buying two for the car, finances willing, gives you the chance to exchange them, and record and listen at the same time.

Putting one in your house and leaving with the kids gives another oppurtunity. You might catch a convo with her ap or friend discussing what's going on.

This is much better than flying in the dark and much quicker. More people have been caught here with a var in the car than any other method and usually within a day or two. People feel.safe in a day or two.


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## frustratedman

I would think VAR would be much more effective in her vehicle, as I can see her phone records and know her calling patterns.

The more I look at it, the more I am accepting that it's most likely over. It's sad in many ways but I just need to remain calm, cool and collected.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marc878

Why don't you just do something already.

Put the damn thing in her car.


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## frustratedman

Sure dude. Since you say so... Because I'm going another route called gps.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nucking Futs

Waste of time trying to help this one.


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## Marc878

Nucking Futs said:


> Waste of time trying to help this one.


He doesn't want to know because then he might have to actually do something. Smh


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## Chaparral

You need to reread this whole thread. You havent followed any or the advice you've been given to break up the affair and save your marriage. You must be the most timid man on earth. Im sure your wife is frustrated. Its excruciating going back through your thread and just reading your posts. You are a walking excuse not to do anything.

How could you possibly have read NO MORE MISTER NICE GUY and MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER and not have a clue how to act like a man.

ALL you know about her other man is what she told you. AND SHE HAS BEEN LYING FOR SEVEN YEARS. Since you have trouble understanding people that means you know zero about him. You don't know that he's single, you don't know that hes an alcoholic, you don't know that hes 6-8. All you know is that he likes kissing your wife.

Out the bastard at work. Stand up for your self and your kids. Tell her family and friends.

Your family is in the gutter what have you to lose?


Please co not reply with more excuses, its unmanly and repugnant.

On those days your sitting alone without your family do not come back here like so many weenies before you have and say how you should have listened, how you should have acted, how coulda would shoulda.

No wonder she thinks your childish, you've let another man destroy your family and done NOTHING about him.


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## Bibi1031

frustratedman said:


> She is clever, if she's a cheater it's yet to be determined!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



She is cheating! EAs are even more damaging because they mess with your head. 

You need IC to help you decide what is best for you and to guide you through this emotional mess you are now living.


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## Marc878

you haven't done/changed a thing. are you that afraid? 

hows that working out for ya?

why are you here?


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## LongWalk

Of course you need to tell her family the reason for your divorce.

You don't have to offer any details besides: "I am sorry to say that wife and I are divorcing after xx years of marriage. She had an affair and we could not agree on a way to repair the situation. You have always been great in-laws. I hope we will remain family and even if proves impossible, I want you to know that you have always been good people in my book."

You do not have to say that there was a PA or EA. Let your wife try to explain what a long term EA is to her family. It will sound implausible. Moreover, by telling her family, she is likely to field questions about OM. If she denies there is an OM, but later wants to introduce him as a guy she has started dating, everyone will know that she is a liar.

The hair thing is not the big deal you think it is. You can wear different caps and hats everyday. Even if you have some red patch that looks like a baboon rump, it is not a sex rank killer. If you are in shape and are self confident, women will not give hoot about some scars.

By the way, the email that put rest to your doubts about the affair pretty confirmed the affair went physical. Men don't talk about kissing work colleagues, unless they have already done it.

Stop looking back with regret. You did not know how to deal with a cheating spouse but that's hardly unique.


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## turnera

Bruce Willis is bald. Patrick Steward is bald. And both are smokin' hot.

Just sayin'.


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## frustratedman

Last night I went out (solo) to a block party in a downtown urban environment with microbrews and music. It was awesome! I ended out hanging with a couple who's getting married in 2 weeks and the future bride's 21 year old hot little cousin. I still have some game! It was affrming and refreshing. We flirted and danced. It was incredible and she was super cool.

It's kinda weird going out by yourself but I did it, had a blast, ran into a group that I knew and made new friends. I just told myself I was going to have fun no matter what.

After the block party ended I needed to sober up for an hour or so. Hung out by a bar talking with smokers out front. A girl came out and said "holy $h1t!" I was like "what," and she was like "you." She was into it. Of course, I'm technically married and this 2nd girl wasn't my type whatsoever, but again... refreshing!

Whether this angers people or not, I'm doing things my way. Going to stay the course and continue working on myself (180, getting a life, re-defining/transforming) until the separation is done. We agreed on end of October. Meanwhile, the GPS will be arriving soon. If I confirm she goes to his house, I'm done. If she wants to try to work on things, we'll see...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phillybeffandswiss

Just divorce her. 





Don't become a cheater.


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## aine

It appears your heart wasn't in your marriage anyway with all your procrastinating and unwillingess to take action and advice here. A woman cannot respect a man who doesn't act like he gives a **** tbh. What your wife did/doing is completely wrong but so is your response. You have lost the battle, have no desire to 'fight' for your wife or marriage, why endure any longer, just get it over with.


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## MattMatt

aine said:


> It appears your heart wasn't in your marriage anyway with all your procrastinating and unwillingess to take action and advice here. A woman cannot respect a man who doesn't act like he gives a **** tbh. What your wife did/doing is completely wrong but so is your response. You have lost the battle, have no desire to 'fight' for your wife or marriage, why endure any longer, just get it over with.


To play the Devil's advocate here... If a husband or wife has a cheating spouse, why should the betrayed spouse have to continually "fight" for their spouse/marriage?

I mean, if you had to have an interview to see if you kept your job every week, pretty soon you'd say: "This is just wrong! How can I get on with my job if I keep having to fight for it every week? You know what? I'm done."


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## aine

MM, true my thinking comes from the fact the OP doesn't follow any advice given in the forum. It doesn't mean 'fighting' for the marriage it could also mean 'fighting' for his own survival, his own emotional health, etc. Therefore he should just file for divorce.


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## Be smart

I am done with this thread. He does not follow any advice and what is worse he still think his wife is in EA even after he caught them 4 years ago. 

If I was his wife I would do the same,two guys paying me for my clothes,extra sex and nobody is going to blame me. I would be like princes.

Good luck friend and maybe some day you will open your eyes.


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## frustratedman

I have been fighting for my marriage and my heart has been in it the whole time.

I'm working on building confidence and self worth.

I have no intention of cheating.

Regardless of what people on this forum think, I have followed some advice provided but not all of it. I do find it helpful, otherwise I wouldn't be sharing. 

Exposure seems to be one main thing that everyone's harping about, in regards to me not following advice. Just so you all know, I've thought about that option heavily. Not all experts recommend exposure, in fact, some are against it. Ultimately, it's her and only her that has to figure out what she wants and for what price. Blood is thicker than water and her family will support her no matter what; they will just want to see her be happy. 

The whole hair thing is a bigger issue to me than it is to everyone else. But, I'm working on that and making progress. That issue is the biggest hurdle in my self esteem.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dyokemm

frustratedman said:


> I have been fighting for my marriage and my heart has been in it the whole time.
> 
> I'm working on building confidence and self worth.
> 
> I have no intention of cheating.
> 
> Regardless of what people on this forum think, I have followed some advice provided but not all of it. I do find it helpful, otherwise I wouldn't be sharing.
> 
> Exposure seems to be one main thing that everyone's harping about, in regards to me not following advice. Just so you all know, I've thought about that option heavily. Not all experts recommend exposure, in fact, some are against it. Ultimately, it's her and only her that has to figure out what she wants and for what price. Blood is thicker than water and her family will support her no matter what; they will just want to see her be happy.
> 
> The whole hair thing is a bigger issue to me than it is to everyone else. But, I'm working on that and making progress. That issue is the biggest hurdle in my self esteem.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


FM,

I agree with your assessment that the lack of exposure is the mistake that most posters believe you are making.

Ultimately, its your call....but I would add this:

The only experts and people I have ever seen advise against exposing an A, are the same ones who advise sweeping the A into the past and moving on ASAP.....and usually their advice on fixing the M revolves around the BS changing whatever it was that caused the WS to have the A in the first place.

Very few posters here will agree that this approach ever works to truly heal and save a M.

A M might 'survive' in some type of discontented (at least for the BS) limbo for years or decades.

I suggest you read RiverRat's thread titled 'A Successful Rugsweep?' to see if this truly saves a M.....when he decided having a detached and damaged M for the final years of their lives was not something he wanted, and finally asked his WW to deal with all the damage she had done....she blew up on him, and in the end he had to file for D because he saw that she was just as selfish as she had been 20+ years before when she had the A.


Now rugsweeping doesn't seem to be something you want to continue...you have been essentially trying that and it isn't working because she keeps going with the A.

What people are telling you here is that exposure is the best chance you have at ending her A and getting her to do what is necessary to heal the M.

By not exposing, you are essentially sitting around waiting for her to come to the conclusion that her A was wrong and she needs to repair the damage on her own.

Good luck on the chance of an actively cheating WW coming to that realization....not going to happen.

That's why most posters are now telling you to just file if you are not going to expose and do everything you can to end her A and get her to start working on the M.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

He took some advice, but balked at the things that terrified him. It's one of the gender biases no one acknowledges. It's okay for a woman to be afraid of a man. Reverse the gender and it becomes a woman can't respect a man who <_insert random male put down_>. 

If a woman was going through this and we brought up male respect, some people would lose their minds. We would have screams of patriarchal society and misogyny over flowing in every post. Since he is a man, he is just a weak beta that his wife doesn't respects.

Yes, I'm hoping seeing other women drooling over him makes him realize it is a lie. Then he'll go ahead and see all women aren't like this and divorce his wife. To be this miserable for this long is ridiculous.

All that said, you do care what posters think otherwise, you'd quit telling us how much you don't.


----------



## turnera

I used to be a full-on, blind follower of Harley's methods. Until I started visiting other forums and saw what REALLY happened to those men who tried to Plan A their cheating wives back. Of course, even Harley tells men to expose.


----------



## Mrs.Submission

turnera said:


> Bruce Willis is bald. Patrick Steward is bald. And both are smokin' hot.
> 
> Just sayin'.


> I love bald men too. My husband looks like the lovechild of Bruce Willis and Jason Statham. *swoon* 

Not even going to waste time posting to the OP since he chooses to stick his head in the sand.


----------



## bfree

frustratedman said:


> I have been fighting for my marriage
> 
> Exposure seems to be one main thing that everyone's harping about, in regards to me not following advice. Just so you all know, I've thought about that option heavily. Not all experts recommend exposure, in fact, some are against it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You say you are fighting for your marriage. Are you married to yourself? Isn't it also your wife's marriage? Why isn't she fighting for THE marriage?

Which "experts" advise against exposure? I'm not aware of any. Please share if you can. The purpose of exposure is many fold. To break up the affair. To help put pressure of the WS to give a concerted effort to heal the BS and the marriage. To give both the WS and to a lesser extent the BS an outside perspective. To create a level of transparency that sets the foundation for a healthy relationship going forward. To isolate the WS from toxic friends and influences. Now please tell me which of these results you do not desire and/or need?


----------



## aine

Many of us are parents, a WS is akin to a child. The child does something wrong, we ignore it, there are no ramifications, no consequences, no repercussions, what happens again? Yes, the child repeats the same error/mistake/wrong either because of childishness (which is normal) or willful disobedience.
Your WW has the best of both worlds, not consequences, and continues to eat cake. A person cannot be remorseful or fully engage in righting a wrong until they have first of all come face to face with their transgression and are truly repentant. 
Admitting their A to the BS is not coming face to face with the reality because if it were they would not have had the A in the first place. They will have already mitigated their actions on some false premise. Being hit with reality requires exposure, to friends, family and all who will listen. The fog will begin to lift and they will see themselves for who they truly are. 
By not exposing you have aided your WW in staying in a comfortable place, soothing her conscience with mitigating circumstances of your bad marriage, telling herself she is not so bad after all. This is not the foundation to repair a marriage, it is a sham, a foundation built on straw, one which may never be repaired and ultimately result in the same thing happening all over again.

However, as you said it is your choice. Noone on this site knows you, many have been where you are and do not give advice lightly but from hard earned experience. Many have rug swept to their pain and detriment which resulted in false reconciliations and weak marriages with much distrust. However as you said, it is your call and I hope it turns out the way you want. Please do keep sharing.


----------



## Dycedarg

FM I'm sorry, there is almost no chance that these two people have not been having a full, physical affair. 

The only reason I haven't said it's impossible is because I have not literally seen it. But I would bet all the money in the world on it. 

She has left you. You are waging your war on false perceptions.


----------



## Chaparral

We're not harping. We're just telling you what has worked thousands of times here. What you and gridcom are trying to do has never been seen to work here.

It just seems wise to play the odds.


----------



## lostmyreligion

frustratedman said:


> The whole hair thing is a bigger issue to me than it is to everyone else. But, I'm working on that and making progress. That issue is the biggest hurdle in my self esteem.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I tell people that while I may appear bald, there's actually been no net loss of hair. Gravity just grabbed what I had on my scalp and pulled it down my back.

And actually, when you factor in what's falling out of my nose and growing out of my ears, there's been a net gain.

Seriously - if you're going bald, the best thing to do is to embrace the bald. Just own it. 

It's all about self confidence.

When you don't seem to notice, it confuses them. Especially after they've signaled to you that _they've_ (the eye flicker) noticed you're bald. Enough that they're unable to resist the second look to figure it out. And of course that's when you set the hook with your substance.

Mind you, if you really feel the need to distract from that, judging from my daughter's boyfriends, facial hair seems to be seriously in vogue again.

My particular hangup with that was given me by my father during the last great facial/body hair run-up in the late 60's. 

He said"Why would I cultivate something on my face that grows wild around my ash hole?"


----------



## lostmyreligion

Oh yeah,

I'd advise against fighting it too long. My feeling is that comb-overs are inherently wrong. 

But then I'm Canadian and old enough to remember Rene Levesque.


----------



## Chaparral

Read ODAT's thread. Its less than six pages.


----------



## carmen ohio

lostmyreligion said:


> Oh yeah,
> 
> I'd advise against fighting it too long. My feeling is that comb-overs are inherently wrong.
> 
> But then I'm Canadian and old enough to remember Rene Levesque.


Don't knock comb-overs. Donald Trump's seems to be working quite well for him.


----------



## lostmyreligion

carmen ohio said:


> Don't knock comb-overs. Donald Trump's seems to be working quite well for him.


J&sus! That's a comb-over!?!!?

And here I thought he was secretly courting the enviro-democrat-geek vote by so obviously providing a habitat for tribbles...


----------



## frustratedman

I read Odat's thread and would agree - he killed it. He was decisive and strong. I'm obviously not at that point, at least not right now... Still a work in progress. I'm not an idiot. I know where my weaknesses are. I know that I haven't handled things well.

The hair thing is my biggest hang up and it is what has held MANY areas of my life, including combating my "wife's" emotional/probable physical affair. Again, everyone says "shave it, embrace it," blah blah blah. I WOULD if I wouldn't have made the mistakes of transplants 20 years ago. If I were to shave my head it would look f'd, period. I'm not going to elaborate again. But, by the end of November I will be a new man with a shaved head that will look bad @$$ and probably 10 years younger. I've FINALLY found a solution. It just takes time.

I'm getting stronger every week. Getting more angry at her for what she's done and letting her go. I'm going out on my own with my friends, who have been awesome during this time.

I'm proud of my current physique. Not to sound vain, but my bod is smokin' right now. Not quite to a six pack but upper body's tight and ripped. I'm talking to girls as much as I can, just to get used to it... It's been a while lol.

My self esteem has been so low for so long, but I'm realizing that my biggest enemy is myself. I look around at dude's with their wives/GFs and think "Well hell if that dude can do it, so can I." It goes back to that quote from "The Edge" - "What one man can do, another man can do."

I deployed the GPS a week ago. She could easily go to his place and do whatever. So far, she has been nowhere suspicious. Strongly considering VAR but haven't made the leap yet. I felt a bit dirty doing the GPS thing but on the other hand, her actions warrant me doing things I normally wouldn't consider.

So there's the update.. Some day this $#!T show will be over. It's not at the pace I'd like it to be, but sometimes things in life don't work out as planned.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Dont feel bad about sleuth mode. A man's number one goal
In life is to protect his family. You do that whatever it takes. If anyone disagrees tell'em to take it up with God/evolution.


----------



## lostmyreligion

Transplants. Totally understand the issue now. Thought seriously about them myself when I started losing it. Just didn't have the money at the time. It's easy to be glad I didn't do it in retrospect, given what I've seen since. 

Great that you found a solution to that. Even better that you know you're ripped. Confidence and physique. Sounds like you'll do just fine once you wade through this crap with your WW and start swimming in the date pool in earnest.


----------



## frustratedman

I hear ya, but still I felt like it was sort of "breaking bad'ish." Watching her route every day... it felt strange.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

Yes, lost. I have to agree. I know I will love and be loved again. In fact, sometimes I think I may find someone more in tune with me and my interests. My wife has never really supported my music, nor does she share my love of music. I know there are women out there who do share that love.

When I was young, I had zero problems with the ladies. My friends would be jealous and give me nicknames, etc. Just gotta get that confidence level back.

I know that it's going to take some time to get myself emotionally up to par and don't want a rebound type of situation. I also don't want to hurt anyone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Are you volunteering anywhere? Hell of a way to (1) make new friends, (2) build up confidence through doing good, (3) meet a lot of nice ladies, and (4) become a more attractive man (because you're out there doing some good while the rest of us just sit on our asses surfing the internet.


----------



## frustratedman

Good suggestion. No I'm not volunteering anywhere. All that is on hold until the resolution on the hair stuff.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

Today, she took the kids to her cousin's baby's first birthday. I was alone at home and just got suddenly sad. I was just sad about the whole situation... thinking about the kids, how our lives are going to change and many great memories we've shared as a family.

I snapped out of it and went to work out. Felt good. There's this younger girl at the gym who always seems to lock eyes with me. I'd say she's in her low 20's. I was just thankful to get my head on straight and not be sad, so thanks to you, girl at the gym.

Then I came home and played some acoustic guitar and worked on one of three songs I'm writing. If there's one thing that this nightmare is doing, it's definitely giving me inspiration & writing material.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

They say comedians and musicians should never be happy if they want to be successful.


----------



## Chuck71

As usual, I'm late for the show. You're scared.... at one time, all of us were.

I was.... three years ago. You are not scared of her, or losing her.... you are

scared of the unknown. Humans will return to misery, simply because it is

familiarity. I went back with my 1st (HS sweetheart) and 2nd (college) love.

"What if it was better the next time" *eyeroll* When I D my XW, I never 

looked back. I am so glad I did. The very moment I climbed out of my

rabbit hole, I came out with boundaries and did not give an inch. Funny thing

happened.... she began reaching. I was done.... I don't think you are.... yet.

I never knew if she cheated, the fact she walked out on the M after 15+

years was enough for me. 

I still write songs.... not like I used to though. A poet / songwriter does need

their pain. I mainly write stories now.... not much difference in the two.


----------



## happyman64

bfree said:


> They say comedians and musicians should never be happy if they want to be successful.


That is why so many of the great, unique artists kill themselves.

I tell my kids the truly greatest actors are the craziest ones. When you think they become other characters for most of their lives they soon forget who they really are......

Sad but true. I never felt the urge to jump on someone's couch telling everyone how much I am in love!

:grin2:


----------



## frustratedman

Well, me being the slow and steady guy I am had an IC session today and I had a moment... An epiphany, I guess.

I'm sick of waiting until the end of October to talk about "us." We're living under the same roof, so it isn't much of a "separation." She's miserable and can't stand being by me. I've tried to talk to her a few times and it hasn't been well received.

Soon, I will ask her to talk and say something to this affect:

There is no use prolonging our misery. We're supposed to be using this time to "work on ourselves." I have been working on myself, by going to counselling, working on my self confidence/self worth, doing things to make me happy. I've also tried to give you space. I believe you know where I stand on trying to work on our marriage. I have seen no improvement from you or even an attempt to talk to me. I would ask and I believe you owe it to me to let me know if you're still talking to "your friend." If you are, I'm done and would ask you to move out of the house and either to your Mom's or your boyfriend's. Yes, it will be devistating for our family, but this is your choice and you have made decisions to get us to where we are.

In summary, I'm at the point of growing a pair of [email protected] and moving on with my life. My sanity is more important than trying to save this sham of a marriage! I'm sick of it and I do not f'ing deserve this crap! I will stick to my guns and let her know where I stand, damn it! Booooom!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Sounds good, I would only suggest that after you ask her if she's still talking to her friend, you stop and wait for the answer. THEN, after she lies and says she isn't, THEN you say 'because if I find out you are, then I will leave, blah blah blah.'

And you don't 'ask' her to move out. You 'tell' her what YOU will do about it. Asking her anything is just handing your power right back into her hands.


----------



## frustratedman

Fair suggestion!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

If saying it to yourself 117 times gets you to believe it, so be it.

She doesn't think you will follow through with anything. Use this

to your advantage. I am a "waiter" as in I try every means possible

before dropping the hammer. I'm sure I hold off longer than most.

By the time I decide to go offensive, every detail is set in place.

It helps when the other starts to feel a false sense of security

just before the floor drops from under them. FM... line your ducks.

After you state your point.... watch what she does, not what she says

When she realizes you're done with the song n dance, she will look

at you different. You will also itch.... it will be your balls coming back.


----------



## frustratedman

Well, I guess I have a few updates of some sort.

Our 3 month "trial separation" under the same roof is drawing to it's close. In the 3 months, I decided NOT to lay my balls on the table and ddmand answers, etc. Instead, I tried to focus on me... big time.

My new shaved head look isn't all the way done, but so far, it's awesome! It'll be fully done in like a month. So that's going to be HUGE for me. I'm still jammin' hats for the time being. But the confidence level has increased through the roof.

My workout regiment has been stellar and I feel great!

The GPS hasn't proven much of anything. No sneaky visits to her "friend's" house. I feel dirty looking at my computer screen, watching where she drove. I think I would even feel more dirty with a VAR. I know people have different takes on this, but that's my take on it.

She has remained civil but distant. Not once has she opened up about how she's feeling about us or our relationship.

This last Saturday, I went out with my brother and a few friends to a concert. One friend had a buddy there, who I didn't know. That buddy had a girlfriend. That girlfriend had an older sister. Everyone was havin a blast, drinking, etc. We were right on front of the stage.

The older sister was into me. There were many dudes around, but she wanted it from me, badly and she was smokin' hot. One thing led to another and we ended up making out a few times, groping, etc. I got her number. She texted me the next morning at like 8:30 AM. I'll tell you what - I haven't felt desired like that for a long time.

I guess, technically, I'm now a cheater. Howver, I really feel like things are over with my wife and I. Also, she has been lying to me for so long, I don't feel guilty, whatsoever.

Meanwhile, while my new "friend" and I have been texting, I dropped my baggage on her. Turns out she's got some baggage as well. She's divorced but doesn't have kids.

The next day, she sent me the friggin' sweetest text ever. She basically told me that although she would LOVE to go out on a date with me, if my marriage is 99% over, I should focus on the 1% until a resolution is determined. I have even more respect for my new friend and I told her that.

I don't want to hurt this new friend and most likely, even if my wife and I divorce, there's a great chance that this new girl and I wouldn't work out. I realize that 100%.

All I know is that, right or wrong, morale or immorale, this past Saturday is exactly what I needed. I feel like the world is just a brighter place and I feel like I trust myself that no matter what happens, I'm going to live a life I love. Life's short. If my wife doesn't love me, I can't force the issue. I've learned and grown so much through this process... It's been heart wrenching and exhausting. But, things are finally coming along!

Now, this weekend, when my wife and I talk, I have no idea how it's going to go. I don't think I'll be disclosing my actions. I'll be sure to provide an update. This saga shall continue...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

Sorry for the spelling errors, by the way. Typing quick on my dumb phone!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

frustratedman said:


> Sorry for the spelling errors, by the way. Typing quick on my dumb phone!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What spilling errors? Your tryping looked fin to me? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

I'm guessing my wife may be witnessing my changes. I should say that if she does decide to recommit yo the marriage, I would definitely be down for that. It would take a lot of work, a renewal of our vows and the trust would need to be rebuilt. I honestly doubt that's going to happen. 

I'm at the point of beginning to let go and let the dice fall as they may. Yes - I will feel horrible for the kids, but they both know that mom & dad will always love them, be there for them, etc.

Here I go again, rambling on...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

frustratedman said:


> Well, I guess I have a few updates of some sort.
> 
> Our 3 month "trial separation" under the same roof is drawing to it's close. In the 3 months, I decided NOT to lay my balls on the table and ddmand answers, etc. Instead, I tried to focus on me... big time.
> 
> My new shaved head look isn't all the way done, but so far, it's awesome! It'll be fully done in like a month. So that's going to be HUGE for me. I'm still jammin' hats for the time being. But the confidence level has increased through the roof.
> 
> My workout regiment has been stellar and I feel great!


:smthumbup:



frustratedman said:


> The GPS hasn't proven much of anything. No sneaky visits to her "friend's" house. I feel dirty looking at my computer screen, watching where she drove. I think I would even feel more dirty with a VAR. I know people have different takes on this, but that's my take on it.
> 
> She has remained civil but distant. Not once has she opened up about how she's feeling about us or our relationship.


Sounds like she's pulling her own 180.



frustratedman said:


> This last Saturday, I went out with my brother and a few friends to a concert. One friend had a buddy there, who I didn't know. That buddy had a girlfriend. That girlfriend had an older sister. Everyone was havin a blast, drinking, etc. We were right on front of the stage.
> 
> The older sister was into me. There were many dudes around, but she wanted it from me, badly and she was smokin' hot. One thing led to another and we ended up making out a few times, groping, etc. I got her number. She texted me the next morning at like 8:30 AM. I'll tell you what - I haven't felt desired like that for a long time.
> 
> I guess, technically, I'm now a cheater. Howver, I really feel like things are over with my wife and I. Also, she has been lying to me for so long, I don't feel guilty, whatsoever.
> 
> Meanwhile, while my new "friend" and I have been texting, I dropped my baggage on her. Turns out she's got some baggage as well. She's divorced but doesn't have kids.
> 
> The next day, she sent me the friggin' sweetest text ever. She basically told me that although she would LOVE to go out on a date with me, if my marriage is 99% over, I should focus on the 1% until a resolution is determined. I have even more respect for my new friend and I told her that.
> 
> I don't want to hurt this new friend and most likely, even if my wife and I divorce, there's a great chance that this new girl and I wouldn't work out. I realize that 100%.
> 
> All I know is that, right or wrong, morale or immorale, this past Saturday is exactly what I needed. I feel like the world is just a brighter place and I feel like I trust myself that no matter what happens, I'm going to live a life I love. Life's short. If my wife doesn't love me, I can't force the issue. I've learned and grown so much through this process... It's been heart wrenching and exhausting. But, things are finally coming along!


Your new friend sounds great. Super classy. Zero sarcasm there.

That said...



frustratedman said:


> Now, this weekend, when my wife and I talk, I have no idea how it's going to go. I don't think I'll be disclosing my actions. I'll be sure to provide an update. This saga shall continue...


Be honest w/ your wife; you should absolutely tell her about your new friend.

It'll either help her to see how far along down the road to divorce things have gotten for the two of you and bring her back to the marriage or it will prompt her to throw in the towel once and for all.

Either way, you win.


----------



## frustratedman

Gus, the new girl is classy. She had no idea of my marital status. She's saying she's not interested while I'm married. That's on me. Yes - she came to me, but I certainly didn't stop it.

My wife doing her own 180? Hmmm... It's been a while since I've posted, so perhaps you may not be familiar with the beckground. I was doing a 180. Maybe she was too. I have no problem with that.

Just a refresher:

* Found out about her emotional affair in 2011. Went to counselling. Agreed to work on future. Agreed no further contact.

* Found deleted fb message in 2012. Nothing incriminating, but violation.

* February 2015 - Felt her love slipping away immediately upon the death of her father figure (her grandpa). This was because she didn't want to disappoint her grandpa.

* July 2015 - Found yet another sneaky email in wife's coupon email account, her friend, who she CLEARLY knows she shouldn't be talking to. Him saying how bad he wanted to kiss her.

* Wife fully admitted and apologized for betraying me and our trust.

You're right, Gus. I'm the bad guy in this situation and I'm at fault for her affair... Zero sarcasm there bud.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

My wife has even said that she knows I was trying to work on the marriage every day...

On the contrary, it seems like I can't "win" on this forum. I finally have made what I feel is progress, self confidence/worth, felt desired for the first time in a long time and I get bashed. Go figure - I guess that's why the title of the thread is what it is... Lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

frustratedman said:


> Gus, the new girl is classy. She had no idea of my marital status. She's saying she's not interested while I'm married. That's on me. Yes - she came to me, but I certainly didn't stop it.
> 
> My wife doing her own 180? Hmmm... It's been a while since I've posted, so perhaps you may not be familiar with the beckground. I was doing a 180. Maybe she was too. I have no problem with that.
> 
> Just a refresher:
> 
> * Found out about her emotional affair in 2011. Went to counselling. Agreed to work on future. Agreed no further contact.
> 
> * Found deleted fb message in 2012. Nothing incriminating, but violation.
> 
> * February 2015 - Felt her love slipping away immediately upon the death of her father figure (her grandpa). This was because she didn't want to disappoint her grandpa.
> 
> * July 2015 - Found yet another sneaky email in wife's coupon email account, her friend, who she CLEARLY knows she shouldn't be talking to. Him saying how bad he wanted to kiss her.
> 
> * Wife fully admitted and apologized for betraying me and our trust.
> 
> *You're right, Gus. I'm the bad guy in this situation and I'm at fault for her affair... Zero sarcasm there bud.*


There must be a twist that I missed somewhere in there...


----------



## GusPolinski

frustratedman said:


> My wife has even said that she knows I was trying to work on the marriage every day...
> 
> *On the contrary, it seems like I can't "win" on this forum. I finally have made what I feel is progress, self confidence/worth, felt desired for the first time in a long time and I get bashed. Go figure - I guess that's why the title of the thread is what it is... Lol.*


Uhhh... I think you've been misreading posts...


----------



## frustratedman

Maybe I misunderstood you, but it sounds like you're criticizing... The new girl zero sarcasm thing is what got me. The new girl has done nothing wrong here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

Ok my bad. Sorry for flying off the handle. I just didn't think it was right to criticize the new girl.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

I thought about telling my wife about the new girl, but it seems like she would interpret it to mean that I'm throwing it in her face. I'm thinking about just keeping it vague.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

Either way, most of my plan for our discussion is ready (minus the new girl). I know where I stand.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

FM

Read Gus's posts again. He was giving you kudos my friend.

When he writes "No sarcasm" he is not kidding.....

Glad you had a good time at the concert.

Now your friend is 100% right about your 1%.

Finish it!

HM


----------



## GusPolinski

frustratedman said:


> Ok my bad. Sorry for flying off the handle. I just didn't think it was right to criticize the new girl.


Uhhh... I wasn't criticizing her at all.

I meant EXACTLY what I said.

She sounds great.

She sounds classy.

She sounds like she has solid morals and a good head on her shoulders.

Like I said, I wasn't being sarcastic.

AT ALL.


----------



## frustratedman

Gus - I apologize! I thought when you said "zero sarcasm" you were saying "100% sarcasm." You're right - she is classy. She knows what she wants.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

frustratedman said:


> Either way, most of my plan for our discussion is ready (minus the new girl). I know where I stand.


Not telling your wife about your new friend is a mistake.

You need to be honest w/ her, and for no reason other than the fact that she may very well wind up finding out all on her own, and that will make things roughly a thousand times worse.

Plus, your friend is right. You need to figure out that 1%. That should involve telling your wife the truth.

Oh, and also... if you DO wind up looking to pursue any sort of relationship w/ this woman after deciding on divorce/divorcing, she might wind up asking you if you ever told your wife about her.

So you need to plan for that conversation as well... if you tell her no, she may walk; if you tell her yes, and she figures out you're lying, she'll definitely walk.

In finding this new friend, you found a woman w/ solid morals... BE WORTHY OF HER.


----------



## Evinrude58

Sounds like from your refresher that you are really kinda lacking on any real evidence your wife is a cheater. I haven't read your whole thread, but it seems like you've been trying to catch her for years and she hasn't done much. I don't know what's up with you. What exactly do you want? What have you done to build your relationship with your wife? Lots and lots? Or have you mainly just been paranoid trying to catch her cheating all these years, and grown tired of the chase? I'm just asking. If she doesn't live you and you don't love her......... Do your thing...


----------



## frustratedman

That's sound advice, Gus!

Part of me feels too crappy about betraying my own suggestion when we agreed on the separation. I'm the one who said "we agree to be faithful during this separation," to which she agreed. Then, there I am, horny as hell with this angel coming down from the heavens for me, passionately making out with her. But, you're probably right. I made the bed, now I must sleep in it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

I guess I said that at the time because I obviously felt threatened by the POSOM.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

Bottom line - ultimately, it probably doesn't matter much. I think my wife has checked out.

Plus, even if we do divorce, there is no possible way I'm ready for another relationship that quickly.

All I do know is that I'm going to focus on what makes me tick and my kids. The rest will fall into place!

My passion for music has definitely been re-ignited. I have a lot to say, lyrically and musically.

Like I said before, whether it was right or wrong, that small moment in time with the new girl has most definitely helped me much. Even if I never see her again, we shared a magical moment. I know it sounds cheesey and high schoolish, but man - texting me at 8:30 the next day? It must have meant something to her!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

Finally, I am 100% sure I wouldn't have made that choice if our marriage wasn't in shambles.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

GusPolinski said:


> Not telling your wife about your new friend is a mistake.
> 
> You need to be honest w/ her, and for no reason other than the fact that she may very well wind up finding out all on her own, and that will make things roughly a thousand times worse.
> 
> Plus, your friend is right. You need to figure out that 1%. That should involve telling your wife the truth.
> 
> Oh, and also... if you DO wind up looking to pursue any sort of relationship w/ this woman after deciding on divorce/divorcing, she might wind up asking you if you ever told your wife about her.
> 
> So you need to plan for that conversation as well... if you tell her no, she may walk; if you tell her yes, and she figures out you're lying, she'll definitely walk.
> 
> In finding this new friend, you found a woman w/ solid morals... BE WORTHY OF HER.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:
Exactly.
Mach would have a field day with you.


----------



## frustratedman

I agree. The new girl definitely seems special. I'm sure there are many men who would love to have a relationship with her. If a lot of stuff happens and I do end up in a relationship with the new girl, I will most definitely respect her. I will also implement what I've learned from my current relationship, from MMSLP, from this forum, etc.

I've learned very much through this ordeal, to say the least!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

Evinrude58 said:


> Sounds like from your refresher that you are really kinda lacking on any real evidence your wife is a cheater. I haven't read your whole thread, but it seems like you've been trying to catch her for years and she hasn't done much. I don't know what's up with you. What exactly do you want? What have you done to build your relationship with your wife? Lots and lots? Or have you mainly just been paranoid trying to catch her cheating all these years, and grown tired of the chase? I'm just asking. If she doesn't live you and you don't love her......... Do your thing...


Evinrude - I know it's a long post. To really get it, you kind of have to read the whole thing, which I wouldn't expect you to do. It's quite complex. There is a giant history.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

It's a friggin' mess actually... But, many have been through it and worse.

On a good note, progress is being made.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

I can not wait until my IC tomorrow. That has actually been REALLY helpful, surprisingly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

Gus - I'm really sorry for blowing up on you. I actually started reading the entire thread again and you were there since day 1.

The internet is a crazy thing. Lots of bad stuff, but forums like this one are soooo helpful. It's just crazy that there are random people out there willing to help complete strangers!

Thanks, TAM community! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

frustratedman said:


> My wife has even said that she knows I was trying to work on the marriage every day...
> 
> On the contrary, it seems like I can't "win" on this forum. I finally have made what I feel is progress, self confidence/worth, felt desired for the first time in a long time and I get bashed. Go figure - I guess that's why the title of the thread is what it is... Lol.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You should tell your wife that another woman hit on you at the concert and IT FELT GREAT.

Trust me, women judge their situations based on whether they have competition. It's why we are SO hard on men who just let their wives cheat and walk all over them. If the woman thinks the man will just sit there and wait for them - 0 respect for him. But let her see that another WOMAN has the hots for her man? Suddenly, he's all she ever wanted.

Not to trick her, just to show her what she often forgets - her man CAN be desirable.


----------



## frustratedman

It's funny because she texted me a pic of her looking all hot and blowing a kiss. This was prior to me giving her my baggage. I could just see that blowing up in my face.

My wife would probably say, "if that's what you want, go for it."

Plus, if I did that, I'm definitely committed to telling her that I "cheated" and that it would just give her the go ahead to pursue her "friend" even more.

Hmmmm... Lots of food for thought.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

Then again, I still have zero idea what she's done or hasn't done with him. For all I know, she'd be laughing on the inside and thinking "if you only knew..."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Look. There's only one rule for you moving forward: be 100% honest. All the time. With everyone. If you commit to that rule, it won't fail you. Just tell her the fvcking truth.


----------



## Chuck71

FM.....you were a hard drinker and you sobered up..... for a long time.

You went out and re-tasted the richness of a fine scotch. Of course

you want to drink from the spring. "Read between the lines here FM"


It is paramount to tell your W if you want anything with this new gal.

If you don't new gal will see this as you are either weak or are "hiding"

something. As for the newness of a female paying attention to you....

oh he!! I get that. Been a long time since you enjoyed that. Have you

ever cut into a healthy tomato to find it damaged on the inside?

Tip toe into this new territory. You have not even filed for D yet.

Maybe..... this was meant to happen to push you forward into filing...

if so.... this girl may have come into your life for that very reason.

Either way... file (file does not mean final) and work on yourself. If

new gal still wants to see you... take it slow. If she wants to go too

fast..... stop and analyze things. A healthy woman will not rush 

things with a man who is not D yet.

...... Friday after Thanksgiving 2012. WC (my then STBXW) and I had

agreed to proceed with the D. I was at home.... alone for Thanksgiving

and vowed to never feel that bad again. I met a girl that Friday. No hanky

panky, not even kissy kissy.... we talked. Learned about each other. Yes

I felt VERY VERY VERY weird, out of place. We met at 8pm.... we talked

until 4:30am. Yeah... first interaction with a female minus my STBXW since

the summer 1997. Chucky still had it..... I walked in the house around 6am

and lo and behold... there was my STBXW sitting up with the lights out.

Wonder what she was thinking.... 

I'm sure she wanted to ask something. I smiled, said -ow yu doin'- in my

Joey from Friends persona. Went to bed. This was right in the middle of

my STBXW staying gone 80% of the nights Mon-Thurs and home 95% of the

nights Fri-Sun. This and a few other instances did let me know.... Chucky

yousa gonna bes alllrright. 

Pardon the long post but I saw a flashback for me... of three years ago.


----------



## frustratedman

Chuck71 said:


> FM.....you were a hard drinker and you sobered up..... for a long time.
> 
> You went out and re-tasted the richness of a fine scotch. Of course
> 
> you want to drink from the spring. "Read between the lines here FM"
> 
> 
> It is paramount to tell your W if you want anything with this new gal.
> 
> If you don't new gal will see this as you are either weak or are "hiding"
> 
> something. As for the newness of a female paying attention to you....
> 
> oh he!! I get that. Been a long time since you enjoyed that. Have you
> 
> ever cut into a healthy tomato to find it damaged on the inside?
> 
> Tip toe into this new territory. You have not even filed for D yet.
> 
> Maybe..... this was meant to happen to push you forward into filing...
> 
> if so.... this girl may have come into your life for that very reason.
> 
> Either way... file (file does not mean final) and work on yourself. If
> 
> new gal still wants to see you... take it slow. If she wants to go too
> 
> fast..... stop and analyze things. A healthy woman will not rush
> 
> things with a man who is not D yet.
> 
> ...... Friday after Thanksgiving 2012. WC (my then STBXW) and I had
> 
> agreed to proceed with the D. I was at home.... alone for Thanksgiving
> 
> and vowed to never feel that bad again. I met a girl that Friday. No hanky
> 
> panky, not even kissy kissy.... we talked. Learned about each other. Yes
> 
> I felt VERY VERY VERY weird, out of place. We met at 8pm.... we talked
> 
> until 4:30am. Yeah... first interaction with a female minus my STBXW since
> 
> the summer 1997. Chucky still had it..... I walked in the house around 6am
> 
> and lo and behold... there was my STBXW sitting up with the lights out.
> 
> Wonder what she was thinking....
> 
> I'm sure she wanted to ask something. I smiled, said -ow yu doin'- in my
> 
> Joey from Friends persona. Went to bed. This was right in the middle of
> 
> my STBXW staying gone 80% of the nights Mon-Thurs and home 95% of the
> 
> nights Fri-Sun. This and a few other instances did let me know.... Chucky
> 
> yousa gonna bes alllrright.
> 
> Pardon the long post but I saw a flashback for me... of three years ago.


Chuck - your words inspire. So where are you at now? What's your status?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

turnera said:


> You should tell your wife that another woman hit on you at the concert and IT FELT GREAT.
> 
> Trust me, women judge their situations based on whether they have competition. It's why we are SO hard on men who just let their wives cheat and walk all over them. If the woman thinks the man will just sit there and wait for them - 0 respect for him. But let her see that another WOMAN has the hots for her man? Suddenly, he's all she ever wanted.
> 
> Not to trick her, just to show her what she often forgets - her man CAN be desirable.


Turnera is as right as rain.

My 1st love... we broke up, she was happy, she had more suitors than a 24 hour cleaners.

She saw me with another female one evening. I avoided her calls for a few days. The girl... my 1st love,

who told me things can never ever be right again.... came at me like a freight train.

2nd love.... exact same thing. I wasn't even "dating" her but 2nd love felt she was an upgrade from her...

Freight train in my rear view. 

I went back with each... and regret both. The 2nd more than the 1st. Something about 1st loves.

But I wasted much time thinking, "It will be better this time around."

When I decided I was done with 3rd love / my XW.... she reached... freight train.... 

I just kept on a' walkin. I'm so glad I did.


----------



## Chaparral

frustratedman said:


> Then again, I still have zero idea what she's done or hasn't done with him. For all I know, she'd be laughing on the inside and thinking "if you only knew..."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You don't know what's going on with your cheating wife but you feel dirty even thinking of using a var. A smart man would use every tool possible to ensure the safety of his family and keep it together. At this rate you will never know why your family fell apart.

Regarding your kissing session, it pales in comparison to your wife's actions, forget about telling her about it. Just make sure she knows your fine moving on if she doesn't work her ass off to save her marriage. Let her know you have started to look forward to a new relationship with or without her.

Reread MMSLP before the weekend discussion.


----------



## Chuck71

frustratedman said:


> Chuck - your words inspire. So where are you at now? What's your status?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My LaD thread is my current one. I did date UG for nearly two years after the D.

We split about a year ago. This is my first foray into the dating scene. Damn it has changed since 1997.

But as Simple Minds sang, I am "Alive and Kicking" 

Songs to live by..... Pink Floyd "Poles Apart" FF to 4:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGY3jN5-IoA

Estranged - Guns n Roses FF to 5:30

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpmAY059TTY


----------



## farsidejunky

Chuck71 said:


> Songs to live by..... Pink Floyd "Poles Apart" FF to 4:00
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGY3jN5-IoA


This was and still is one of my major triggering songs from the 8 months of the limbo dance I did with my wife in our rekindling.


----------



## carmen ohio

frustratedman said:


> Well, I guess I have a few updates of some sort . . .
> 
> This last Saturday, I went out with my brother and a few friends to a concert. One friend had a buddy there, who I didn't know. That buddy had a girlfriend. That girlfriend had an older sister. Everyone was havin a blast, drinking, etc. We were right on front of the stage.
> 
> The older sister was into me. There were many dudes around, but she wanted it from me, badly and she was smokin' hot. One thing led to another and we ended up making out a few times, groping, etc. I got her number. She texted me the next morning at like 8:30 AM. I'll tell you what - I haven't felt desired like that for a long time.
> 
> I guess, technically, I'm now a cheater. Howver, I really feel like things are over with my wife and I. Also, she has been lying to me for so long, I don't feel guilty, whatsoever . . .
> 
> All I know is that, right or wrong, morale or immorale, this past Saturday is exactly what I needed. I feel like the world is just a brighter place and I feel like I trust myself that no matter what happens, I'm going to live a life I love. Life's short. If my wife doesn't love me, I can't force the issue. I've learned and grown so much through this process... It's been heart wrenching and exhausting. But, things are finally coming along!
> 
> Now, this weekend, when my wife and I talk, I have no idea how it's going to go. I don't think I'll be disclosing my actions. I'll be sure to provide an update. This saga shall continue...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


fm,

You're a married man who has been the victim of infidelity. You really had no excuse for _"making out"_ with the OW, and you know it. If you are a straight up kind of guy, you will tell your W what happened.

But understand, telling her what happened doesn't mean you have to say you're sorry for what happened. If fact, if you're not sorry, you should tell her that. And if you really think that this was exacly what you needed, you should tell her that, too.

The important thing is to be honest, about what you did and about what you feel. As Gus indicated, maybe it will ignite a spark in her and start the two of you down the road to reconciliation or maybe it will be the final nail in the coffin of your marriage. Either way, it will enable you to move forward and to start to build a new life, and since it will be based on honesty and courage it will be a better life.

Good luck.


----------



## GusPolinski

frustratedman said:


> Gus - I'm really sorry for blowing up on you. I actually started reading the entire thread again and you were there since day 1.
> 
> The internet is a crazy thing. Lots of bad stuff, but forums like this one are soooo helpful. It's just crazy that there are random people out there willing to help complete strangers!
> 
> Thanks, TAM community!


We're cool. It was a simple mis-read.

:smthumbup:


----------



## GusPolinski

farsidejunky said:


> This was and still is one of my major triggering songs from the 8 months of the limbo dance I did with my wife in our rekindling.


That's a great album.


----------



## farsidejunky

GusPolinski said:


> That's a great album.


Meh. 3 or 4 good songs mixed into average.

Give me The Final Cut, or The Wall, or even Animals. Floyd lost something when Waters walked away.

ETA: But that one song on the Division Bell...it does all kinds of funny things to my emotions.


----------



## GusPolinski

farsidejunky said:


> Meh. 3 or 4 good songs mixed into average.
> 
> Give me The Final Cut, or The Wall, or even Animals. Floyd lost something when Waters walked away.


Yeah... a huge d**chebag.


----------



## farsidejunky

GusPolinski said:


> Yeah... a huge d**chebag.


An incredibly creative one, but yes.


----------



## Chuck71

farsidejunky said:


> Meh. 3 or 4 good songs mixed into average.
> 
> Give me The Final Cut, or The Wall, or even Animals. Floyd lost something when Waters walked away.
> 
> ETA: But that one song on the Division Bell...it does all kinds of funny things to my emotions.


Animals is a fav as well but not up there with Wall, Dark Side of the Moon, Wish you were Here, or Atom Heart Mother.

The Final Cut was Water's personal emotions.

Animals was "somewhat" tied into Eric Blair's novel Animal Farm


----------



## farsidejunky

The Final Cut is still my personal favorite. But it takes me to a pretty dark place emotionally. It always has.


----------



## frustratedman

Hey - maybe you guys should start a floyd forum lol jk.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

frustratedman said:


> Hey - maybe you guys should start a floyd forum lol jk.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Was that said with zero or 100% sarcasm..... :rofl::rofl::rofl:


----------



## Nucking Futs

frustratedman said:


> Hey - maybe you guys should start a floyd forum lol jk.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


All forums are floyd forums.


----------



## farsidejunky

Nucking Futs said:


> All forums are floyd forums.


Like.


----------



## Be smart

Welcome back. 

You see every woman is defferent. This "new lady" told you she was not going to have anything with you because you are married. 

Can you say the same about your wife ? Still you dont know almost nothing about her Affair,LONG TIME AFFAIR.

You need to tell your wife the truth. It doesnt matter that she cheated on you,that you are separated. Dont be like her.


----------



## bfree

farsidejunky said:


> The Final Cut is still my personal favorite. But it takes me to a pretty dark place emotionally. It always has.


We all have a Floyd song that leads to a dark place. This is mine.

https://youtu.be/n_yRvxy9HVs


----------



## farsidejunky

Didn't hit the link, but it looks like Comfortably Numb.


----------



## bfree

farsidejunky said:


> Didn't hit the link, but it looks like Comfortably Numb.


Nope. Mother.


----------



## farsidejunky

That's right.

"Mother, do you think she's good enough for me?
Mother, do you think she's dangerous to me?
Mother, will she tear your little boy apart?
Oooh aah, mother, will she break my heart?"

Yeah, that one does it for me as well, brother.


----------



## frustratedman

I have performed both "Mother" and "Comfortably Numb" in public. By that, I mean like 20 to 40 people lol. Dig Floyd quite a bit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

Be smart said:


> Welcome back.
> 
> You see every woman is defferent. This "new lady" told you she was not going to have anything with you because you are married.
> 
> Can you say the same about your wife ? Still you dont know almost nothing about her Affair,LONG TIME AFFAIR.
> 
> You need to tell your wife the truth. It doesnt matter that she cheated on you,that you are separated. Dont be like her.


Ok, so everyone says I know almost nothing about the affair. I'd say that's a bit of a stretch. I know quite a bit about it, less the physical aspects.

Also, the new girl and I are still texting. I resisted yesterday, as to not look pathetic, but this morning, I sent her a good morning text, to which she responded to right away with smiley faces, etc. So, I'd say she's still interested, assuming the context is right.

The bottom line is that I will be telling my wife about her, for no other reason but that it's the truth. I'll tell her I had no intention of it happening but this girl was attractive and all over me like flies on $#!t and I didn't stop it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

Everyone at work has noticed my attitude has shifted. I'm a much happier, confident person. I make eye contact with everyone, engage in small talk or conversation, when applicable, etc.

I'm just elated right now. Again, it's not about this specifc girl or the possibility of a relationship with her. It's that I AM desirable and will be happy, no matter what.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soursweet

frustratedman said:


> Bottom line... Basically, I feel like we rug swept issues. I feel like she has done much to prove she loves me. I didn't force her to quit her job. I feel like I'm screwed either way because I sort of agreed to put the whole thing past me when we were in counseling. If I press the issue she will again say that nothing physical happened. I guess that's the main problem! I feel like there is NO WAY an emotional affair could last 3 years without going physical!! If I find out it did, I would need to get out of this marriage. She insists nothing physical happened. Upon conducting my research, Ive never found smoking gun proof. Some days are good. Then I remember the past and I tell myself just to say screw it. Then I think about my kids... Uuuggghhh! This situation is just so frustrating!!!
> 
> Sorry for the crazy discombobulated post everyone!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Interesting story. My 2 cents.

You either forgive / move on, or you don't. And it really-really doesn't matter what happened between them. Physical or not, emotional or not, friendship only or more... It's all in the past, and the only thing that is in the present is YOUR feelings. 

The main problem is that she wasn't true to you. That's what bothering you. But you cannot undo it. And even if you find hard proof of her not having physically cheated on you, it will not miraculously establish full trust between you. And you will not feel better. Well, maybe only for a moment. 

It sounds like you are obsessed. You search and research, gather data, analyze it, and keep going... It is very easy to fall into that pattern in your situation. BUT it's you and only you who can get you out of there. 

I know it's easy to say and hard to do, but I've done it. Sometimes separation helps to re-evaluate things and stop this madness. 

Best of luck!


----------



## frustratedman

Not really my cup of tea, musically.

Anyhow, we texted again today and I put a little context into my marital situation. I said "My wife has had an inappropriate relationship with a co-worker for so long that I don't know if I can ever look at her the same." She replied, apologizing and then she said that her ex-husband had also had an inappropriate relationship.

She said she loves getting texts from me, thinks I'm very sweet and attractive.

Whoah! That's about all I can say...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

frustratedman said:


> Not really my cup of tea, musically.
> 
> Anyhow, we texted again today and I put a little context into my marital situation.* I said "My wife* has had an inappropriate relationship with a co-worker for so long that I don't know if I can ever look at her the same." She replied, apologizing and then she said that her ex-husband had also had an inappropriate relationship.
> 
> She said she loves getting texts from me, thinks I'm very sweet and attractive.
> 
> Whoah! That's about all I can say...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok, you've tried it, it felt good, and you are STILL talking to her.

Stop it. You're two texts away from a full-blown affair.

MY WIFE.

You are still married.

Stop it.


----------



## frustratedman

turnera said:


> Ok, you've tried it, it felt good, and you are STILL talking to her.
> 
> Stop it. You're two texts away from a full-blown affair.
> 
> MY WIFE.
> 
> You are still married.
> 
> Stop it.


Tunera - You're right. I've got to stop. I need to wait until my wife and I have our big talk on Sunday.

I must admit, it's power has somewhat taken me over. It feels so damn good to hear those words. I just found it crazy that we have both been through this affair BS.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

frustratedman said:


> Tunera - You're right. I've got to stop. I need to wait until my wife and I have our big talk on Sunday.
> 
> I must admit, it's power has somewhat taken me over. It feels so damn good to hear those words. I just found it crazy that we have both been through this affair BS.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


fm, EVERYONE ELSE...this is how affairs start.

I know we all like to say 'Well, I would NEVER do that, I have integrity, I know right from wrong'...but in reality, the psychology takes over. If we're in a love desert, just having someone LOOK at us, or SMILE at us, or TALK to us, gets our heart pounding and gets us just WISHING we could see that person again, and then finding ways to just happen to BE where that person is going to be so they can spot us and smile at us again, to purposely picking up the phone and CREATING an opportunity...

It IS an addiction. So the best option is to just not go near it in the first place.

And fm, do I hear this right? As soon as you 'have a talk' with your wife, you're then free to pursue any woman you want? Are you seriously saying that?


----------



## frustratedman

I am fairly certain my wife is checked out. I've damn near lost hope for my marriage. I'm going to give it my all when we have our talk. I don't want it to end, nor do I want to lose my marriage & family. However, my wife has given me no indication, whatsoever, that she wants to try.

I guess the positive is that I have a new frame of mind. Before, I'd be so worried about what she was doing, if her affair was going on, etc. Now I have sort of given up on wasting my energy worrying about it. I just almost want us to both be happy. I feel like I'm a bigger person than I was.

I don't have some pipe dream about a new relationship with this new girl. I realize it's just like a drug. But, whether she knows it or not, the new girl has done more than she will ever know for my sense of self worth.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

How will you react if she feels you are in an EA with another woman?


----------



## frustratedman

Chuck71 said:


> How will you react if she feels you are in an EA with another woman?


My guess is that it won't change her mind. I really think she's done with me and no longer cares. Maybe I'm wrong... I guess we shall see.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dyokemm

Chuck71 said:


> How will you react if she feels you are in an EA with another woman?


While I agree with turnera and others that he is skirting the edge of starting an EA....At this point, I still think FM could honestly say:

"All talking to her did was open my eyes to the fact their is a whole other world out there and I have worth and value as a person.

In other words, there isn't a single reason I should put up with one more second of your bullsh*t if you are not going to give me complete honesty about this A with POS, stop every bit of your continued shady behavior, and recommit to this M.

If you won't do that, then I now know I have far better things and people to spend my time on."


----------



## Chuck71

Dyokemm said:


> While I agree with turnera and others that he is skirting the edge of starting an EA....At this point, I still think FM could honestly say:
> 
> "All talking to her did was open my eyes to the fact their is a whole other world out there and I have worth and value as a person.
> 
> In other words, there isn't a single reason I should put up with one more second of your bullsh*t if you are not going to give me complete honesty about this A with POS, stop every bit of your continued shady behavior, and recommit to this M.
> 
> If you won't do that, then I now know I have far better things and people to spend my time on."


I do not feel she has merit to use that either.... this is just a possible way of her reacting.

See it often on here


----------



## frustratedman

Well, I believe I'll have to fully disclose that we made out also. I don't know to what extent I'll discuss that part, but it was definitely hot and steamy. This girl wanted me badly.

I haven't experienced that since I was in high school. It's almost cosmic in a way, like it was meant to happen...

Meanwhile, I get home from work and wife is out at happy hour with her work friends. I would be willing to bet POSOM is there too. Strangely, I no longer give a $#!t.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

That "meant to happen" crap is the same justification she probably used for her affair.

Do you hear yourself?


----------



## frustratedman

farsidejunky said:


> That "meant to happen" crap is the same justification she probably used for her affair.
> 
> Do you hear yourself?


They're not even vaguely close to the same circumstances whatsoever. Not trying to give myself negative self talk here but I'm no Don Juan. This girl is smokin' hot. She could have chosen many other guys. It was really surreal...

Now my wife (and damn near any female for that matter) could easily hook up with a number of guys in the blink of an eye.

The bottom line is that it was a really uncanny/strange/surreal situation!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

I do feel like the sitation happened for a reason....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

I'm at the point that I've suffered for so long, I nearly give up. I can't make my wife want me. If she doesn't see the value in me, it's her loss.

Now I'm not saying the grass is greener whatsoever. I'm saying that I now have much more confidence in myself to know that if my marriage ends, which I don't want, my life certainly isn't over. I will love and be loved again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

Okay. You know best. 

Good luck.


----------



## carmen ohio

frustratedman said:


> I do feel like the sitation happened for a reason....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Let's hope the reason is to remind you to think with your head instead of your johnson.


----------



## frustratedman

I must admit that I do miss sex. But, I have friends who NEVER have it.

But, I'm definitely interested in my wife the most. Of only she felt the same... Apparently our vows meant something different to her than they do to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

Upon reviewing that post, I guess I look like a hypocrite since I'm now a "cheater." Again, I don't feel much guilt after these years of suffereing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

Then do the right thing and divorce, THEN date.


----------



## Evinrude58

Yes, as stated, you need to read your words. I'd bet your wife was telling her the exact same bs. This woman was only "smokin' hot" to YOU, because she was giving you the kind of attention you're craving. I'll bet if you saw her in the daylight after you were in a different frame of mind, you'd be/-- eehhh, she's alright....

She made me feel xxxx, it's been so long since I've been xxxxxx, I really think this was meant to happen, etc etc.

Fact is, both of you were hoping something would happen with someone, and you and she just happened to give out the same vibes at the same time. 
You're letting this woman and your thoughts about her steal any remaining feelings you have for your wife. Same as she did to you. Still not right. If you want to divorce. Just do it.


----------



## turnera

Look. Nobody here wants you to settle for a crappy life.

We just don't want you to stray into a HORRIBLE life, that of a cheater.

You tried it, you know you can get a woman now, so do the right thing and divorce your wife AND THEN DATE.


----------



## frustratedman

turnera said:


> Look. Nobody here wants you to settle for a crappy life.
> 
> We just don't want you to stray into a HORRIBLE life, that of a cheater.
> 
> You tried it, you know you can get a woman now, so do the right thing and divorce your wife AND THEN DATE.


So if she tells me she loves POSOM, which would surprise me, I should wait a year before I move forward? She gets to do what she wants, while I wait? Just playing devil's advocate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Evinrude58

If you want a divorce, file for divorce. What difference does it make about the OM? 
I didn't wait a year before dating--- wish I would have. That's up to you. But think about how vulnerable you are letting this other lady twist your feelings all up. You could hurt other people, and you could make a big mistake marrying the wrong person if you don't give yourself time to get right emotionally again.
I think once you say you want a divorce, file, and move out--- do what you want.


----------



## Be smart

Nobody is blaming you. I was with you since you first posted here and I told you to go for Divorce. 

Your wife will never tell you the truth about her Affair. You found about them 4 years ago,but it could be even longer. She worked with him every single day. Lots of options there.

What I am trying to say and probably others dont be like your wife. It is not fair to you,your family,your new lady and your wife.

File Divorce and then date. It doesnt have to be that lady. I hope you can meet someone who will respect and love you. Everybody deserves that.


----------



## frustratedman

I get it. I'm not emotionally ready and don't want to hurt anyone. The nature/hormonal/ego part of the equation is the problem.

I haven't texted the new girl since Thursday. She know about the pending discussion with my wife tomorrow. I'm resisting texting her today. I'll leave that as is. We had such a connection when I told her about my wife's affair and she told me about her ex-husband's.

I'm very curious to see what my wife has to say tomorrow. I'm 95% convinced that she's done. Too much has happened and too much damage has been done in her mind. I don't disagree but think that it can be done if the two of us commit to the marriage and want to do the hard work needed.

If that's the case, a whole new set of problems open up - logistics, kids, divorce method, money, etc. It's just so sad.

There again, in all that sadness, there's a ray of light - the new girl. By the time I'm emotionally ready, have filed, etc., the new girl will likely have found someone else, which is fine, but kind of a bummer.

That's where my confidence will need to come into play to say that, no matter what, I'll survive and THRIVE!

Again, although what I've done is horrible and not honorable, I think it helped me realize a lot of things about myself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Evinrude58

All the horrible and honorable aside, having the new girl in your mind complicates thinking clearly. You see the logic side of it, but the emotional pull if the new girl is still there. If your wife has cheated all these years and you know it, them I can see your conscience being affected less. 

You're on the right track--- find out what your wife wants as far as if she can ever live you like she could again, and how much she just wants security.

Just my opinion, and I'm no expert...
Good luck


----------



## turnera

frustratedman said:


> So if she tells me she loves POSOM, which would surprise me, I should wait a year before I move forward? She gets to do what she wants, while I wait? Just playing devil's advocate.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Personally, yeah. You can hang out with people as friends for the next year. You can do tons of fun things IN A GROUP SETTING. You can GET TO KNOW those women in those groups and see them at their best and at their worst, as friends, to see who they really are, instead of just picking women you lust after, which is probably how you ended up with a cheating wife. You want a woman who's your best friend for life, don't you? So start out being friends with women. Get to know them when they aren't being FAKE, just to catch a guy. Weed out the ones who don't match your own values. If you see them doing things in a group setting that you wouldn't want done TO YOU, mark them off your list. 

The year will fly by if you're doing this. If you just need SEX, and that's what this sounds like, there are plenty of desperate women out there at bars willing to give you sex for an evening of attention, to take care of that need.

But you are in NO CONDITION to be searching for and CHOOSING a potential partner. They say to take a month away from dating for every year you were in your relationship, just to get your mind squared away over what happened, before your picker is fixed. Anything before that, and you are just DESPERATE for validation (not to mention sex) and so you are going to pick the FIRST woman to make you feel good. 

But ANY woman can make you feel good. For a while. Look at what happened to you in AN HOUR. And now you can't stop thinking about her, this woman you don't even know.

Be smart about this.


----------



## frustratedman

turnera said:


> Personally, yeah. You can hang out with people as friends for the next year. You can do tons of fun things IN A GROUP SETTING. You can GET TO KNOW those women in those groups and see them at their best and at their worst, as friends, to see who they really are, instead of just picking women you lust after, which is probably how you ended up with a cheating wife. You want a woman who's your best friend for life, don't you? So start out being friends with women. Get to know them when they aren't being FAKE, just to catch a guy. Weed out the ones who don't match your own values. If you see them doing things in a group setting that you wouldn't want done TO YOU, mark them off your list.
> 
> The year will fly by if you're doing this. If you just need SEX, and that's what this sounds like, there are plenty of desperate women out there at bars willing to give you sex for an evening of attention, to take care of that need.
> 
> But you are in NO CONDITION to be searching for and CHOOSING a potential partner. They say to take a month away from dating for every year you were in your relationship, just to get your mind squared away over what happened, before your picker is fixed. Anything before that, and you are just DESPERATE for validation (not to mention sex) and so you are going to pick the FIRST woman to make you feel good.
> 
> But ANY woman can make you feel good. For a while. Look at what happened to you in AN HOUR. And now you can't stop thinking about her, this woman you don't even know.
> 
> Be smart about this.


I didn't meet my wife under those circumstances whatsoever.

I do need to take a step back and take things slowly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

If you were good friends with your wife before you started dating, then, something in the marriage may have contributed to her disconnecting. It would behoove you to read His Needs Her Needs before you start dating again.


----------



## frustratedman

Yes - a lot of things happened in that 16 years.

I've read 5 Languages, MMSLP (twice) & NMMNG. Haven't read His Needs/Her Needs yet, but I will take the advice.

The new girl definitely provides a big high for me. It's REALLY HARD not to text her. I must resist, for multiple reasons.

The childish part of me says "hell with it, if we're done and my wife's been in a long term affair, why can't I at least have some fun?" I know this is unhealthy for all parties involved.

Again, the whole entire situation just sucks big time. I don't want to slip back into a depression, when I'm so elated right now. I'll have that night etched into my memory for a LONG time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Not everyone agrrees on the definittion of infidelity and marriage. I consider these marriage over wwhen one has an affair as there vows havve beeen broken. A marriagee liccense is no more than a leegal document. A contracctt that has tto be adjudicated by a court but invalid none the less. Morally, your marriage has been over with for quite awhile.

Sorry about the spelling, TAM hates this tablet. Or vice versa.


----------



## Rosinwinter

I've been reading the thread & i somehow know how you're feeling. Of course you'll get different reactions, advices & comments.
My first marriage was disastrous, for years my husband cheated on me.
(Im catholic too, got pregnant young, no proposal too. Was just pushed to marry thinking it was the right thing to do)
We have 4 children, everytime we try to work on our marriage i get pregnant.
Anyways.... All these opinions & comments, thou there are good ones, can only confuse you.
Obviously, if given the choice you don't want a divorce. 
But i will advice you to ponder on the situation, disregard the petty stuff. Like the proposal thing etc.
What's important is yourself, going around town doing stuff like that is just superficial. After all that night out at the end of the day the problem is still there. 
Think of yourself & your children, do the right thing for you & for your children.
No use holding on to someone who doesn't want to hold on back & stay in a relationship that slowly killing your spirit.
It maybe painful, but is it doing anything good for you as a person?
Love yourself a little bit more, don't jump into the band wagon.
Sometimes a person doesn't realize the value of the other until they lose them.
Good luck to you...


----------



## frustratedman

Rosinwinter said:


> I've been reading the thread & i somehow know how you're feeling. Of course you'll get different reactions, advices & comments.
> My first marriage was disastrous, for years my husband cheated on me.
> (Im catholic too, got pregnant young, no proposal too. Was just pushed to marry thinking it was the right thing to do)
> We have 4 children, everytime we try to work on our marriage i get pregnant.
> Anyways.... All these opinions & comments, thou there are good ones, can only confuse you.
> Obviously, if given the choice you don't want a divorce.
> But i will advice you to ponder on the situation, disregard the petty stuff. Like the proposal thing etc.
> What's important is yourself, going around town doing stuff like that is just superficial. After all that night out at the end of the day the problem is still there.
> Think of yourself & your children, do the right thing for you & for your children.
> No use holding on to someone who doesn't want to hold on back & stay in a relationship that slowly killing your spirit.
> It maybe painful, but is it doing anything good for you as a person?
> Love yourself a little bit more, don't jump into the band wagon.
> Sometimes a person doesn't realize the value of the other until they lose them.
> Good luck to you...


I appreciate everyone's comments, but I don't understand one statement about going around town being superficial. Me going out is, in my opinion, living life. At the end of that particular day, my entire spirit was lifted from the grave! I've texted the new girl several times, we've shared some stuff about each other, etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

Chaparral said:


> Not everyone agrrees on the definittion of infidelity and marriage. I consider these marriage over wwhen one has an affair as there vows havve beeen broken. A marriagee liccense is no more than a leegal document. A contracctt that has tto be adjudicated by a court but invalid none the less. Morally, your marriage has been over with for quite awhile.
> 
> Sorry about the spelling, TAM hates this tablet. Or vice versa.


I kind of see what you're saying and agree. My marriage has been dead for years when I really look at it. By sitting around waiting, I could be doing myself a disservice. What is a piece of paper going to change?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

I've tried to take the "high road," and what has it gotten me?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

As you all can see, I'm a mess - all over the board lol.

If the new girl knows the risks, which she does, and is willing to take a chance, why not?

Bottom line - tomorrow is the big day so I'll see how it goes and proceed accordingly.

By the way, I'm going to disclose the new girl but keep it vague. I'm going to tell my wife that I met someone new, we kissed and texted.

God just saying "we kissed" drives memories of bliss into my brain. Better go to the gym and go shop for myself a little bit. Get my mind off this crazy roller coaster.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

fwiw, I'm not telling you not to get with another girl right now because it's 'wrong' or 'immoral.' I'm telling you because psychologically, you are going to end up hurting her for sure, and yourself almost certainly. Because you are SO NEEDY for affection, attention, admiration, and sex, that anything you get in terms of that right now is going to be magnified in your mind as the ONLY thing you need, you'll turn into a needy clingy dude who begs her not to walk away from you, and you'll fall right back into depression when she does.

Get into therapy. Hang out with lots and lots of guy friends. Pick up a sport. Volunteer somewhere. Go camping or fishing and think.a.lot by yourself. And hang out in group setting with mixed groups and flirt and just have fun. 

I tell guys in your situation that, once you DO start dating, do not see that person more than once a month, twice at most. Why? Because if you see her more often, those PEA chemicals - the same ones your wife is feeling with her OM - will snag you and pull you down into addiction. If you see any new woman only once or twice a week, you can psychologically keep free from that addiction and be level headed about what you're doing.


----------



## frustratedman

turnera said:


> fwiw, I'm not telling you not to get with another girl right now because it's 'wrong' or 'immoral.' I'm telling you because psychologically, you are going to end up hurting her for sure, and yourself almost certainly. Because you are SO NEEDY for affection, attention, admiration, and sex, that anything you get in terms of that right now is going to be magnified in your mind as the ONLY thing you need, you'll turn into a needy clingy dude who begs her not to walk away from you, and you'll fall right back into depression when she does.
> 
> Get into therapy. Hang out with lots and lots of guy friends. Pick up a sport. Volunteer somewhere. Go camping or fishing and think.a.lot by yourself. And hang out in group setting with mixed groups and flirt and just have fun.
> 
> I tell guys in your situation that, once you DO start dating, do not see that person more than once a month, twice at most. Why? Because if you see her more often, those PEA chemicals - the same ones your wife is feeling with her OM - will snag you and pull you down into addiction. If you see any new woman only once or twice a week, you can psychologically keep free from that addiction and be level headed about what you're doing.


I see what you're saying, but honestly, I've thought much about new relationships in the future. My outlook is that I'm no longer going to be needy and require validation. Take it or leave it is how I want to roll. I just want to embrace life to the fullest, have no expectations and have fun!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

Oh yeah - I'm doing counseling. My counsellor told me I've made HUGE steps forward and that she thinks my thought processes are where they should be.

I do hang out with my buddies a lot. I tried golf for the first time about a month ago and in the winter I'm going to try snow boarding. I've been playing a lot of guitar as well. Trying to stay busy with healthy activities...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

Finally, I have thought A LOT on my own. I've sliced and diced, researched, talked to family and friends for support, etc.

Again, it's almost like I've already grieved the end of my marriage so much that there's not much grieving left (at least about our relationship). Now the actual divorce? That's a different deal - the kids, bills, living arrangements, etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rosinwinter

That's good then that you're connecting with someone. 
What i meant about the superficial thing is the whole thing. Nothing in particular... Again good luck to you


----------



## Nucking Futs

I'm kind of with Chaparral about it. I don't have a problem with you dating once you have filed for divorce and your wife is aware that there is no hope of R. Until then it's cheating.


----------



## Evinrude58

You aren't listening. Turnera gave you some excellent advice. We can see in your post how addicted you already are to the high of the OM. It's obvious. You know you've texted her today......
She is trying to tell you that you need a while. There are gobs of women out there. Gotta slow down and not get caught up in it. I'll say this, though. If you have a woman that's good with you seeing her twice a month--- she's not all that interested


----------



## frustratedman

Evinrude58 said:


> You aren't listening. Turnera gave you some excellent advice. We can see in your post how addicted you already are to the high of the OM. It's obvious. You know you've texted her today......
> She is trying to tell you that you need a while. There are gobs of women out there. Gotta slow down and not get caught up in it. I'll say this, though. If you have a woman that's good with you seeing her twice a month--- she's not all that interested


Honestly I haven't texted her. I prepared a happy halloween text then I thought it wasn't the right move. She said she wants me to be on the same page with her before proceeding, which I agree with. She doesn't want me to focus on her while resolving my marriage. She's very adult and doesn't want either of us to get hurt.

That said, when I told her that I don't think I can ever look at my wife the same, she admitted to loving getting texts and that she doesn't want to get rid of me. She just wants to know that I'm ready to move on. When I type that out, I admit that I'm not ready yet. If it's meant to be and she waits for me to heal and I'm ready, awesome. If not, so be it, she still played a critical role in this entire situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## G.J.

frustratedman said:


> If the new girl knows the risks, which she does, and is willing to take a chance, why not?
> 
> *Leaving it to see what happens*
> 
> Bottom line - tomorrow is the big day so I'll see how it goes and proceed accordingly.
> 
> *Leaving it to see what happens*
> 
> By the way, I'm going to disclose the new girl but keep it vague. I'm going to tell my wife that I met someone new, we kissed and texted.
> 
> *Leaving it to see what happens*
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hmm lets see if there's a message coming across

Almost like being in a canoe with out a paddle


----------



## frustratedman

G.J. said:


> Hmm lets see if there's a message coming across
> 
> Almost like being in a canoe with out a paddle


Yes - I'm admittedly scatter-brained!

I know where I stand with my wife and our talk. I was kind of playing devil's advocate with Chaperal's post.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

So I never texted new girl today - I resisted. Then, BAM she texted me! So I'm obviously on her mind. That just makes me feel more confident going into tomorrow - the HUGE discussion between my wife and I. Believe me - there will be an update tomorrow. My whole future is up in the air, but I'm ready to forge ahead!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

frustratedman said:


> So I never texted new girl today - I resisted. Then, BAM she texted me! So I'm obviously on her mind. That just makes me feel more confident going into tomorrow - the HUGE discussion between my wife and I. Believe me - there will be an update tomorrow. My whole future is up in the air, but I'm ready to forge ahead!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good luck FM. As you forge onward may you find yourself in the exact place you need to be.


----------



## just got it 55

frustratedman said:


> So I never texted new girl today - I resisted. Then, BAM she texted me! So I'm obviously on her mind. That just makes me feel more confident going into tomorrow - the HUGE discussion between my wife and I. Believe me - there will be an update tomorrow. My whole future is up in the air, but I'm ready to forge ahead!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm hoping no news is good news

Generally not the case on CWI

FM I hope you are Okay

55


----------



## frustratedman

Thanks for checking, 55!

So, we had our big talk on Sunday. Here's a breakdown:

* We discussed what we're working on individually.

* She started crying and said that she's happy I finally valued myself to do something about my hair. I explained that I never knew about this new option (the shaved head/SMP thing, which is looking awesome, by the way).

* She related my always wearing a hat to living with an alcoholic. Like if we're planning on doing this or that, how will I cope without my ball cap. I think this is a big time stretch but do agree it's been a problem that I'm now dealing with.

* She said she's working on being stronger and improving her communication skills. She's still going to therapy.

* She DESPISES my guitar playing. She said every time I play a "sad song," she wants to smash my guitar into pieces. I told her that for the last 3 months, I've focused on playing more upbeat stuff and avoided sad tunes. By the way, music is VERY important to me and she's known this since long before we were married.

* I told her that I've become much stronger, that therapy has been helpful.

* I told her I'm doing things that make me happy and not feeling ashamed about it. For example, she hates bluegrass music and I like some of it. I'm doing things I enjoy, etc.

* I told her that "something happened, but I didn't let it go too far." She didn't want details.

* We ended up agreeing to talk about us at the end of each month to see where we're at.

* She said she wants to move to her mom's and that she doesn't like the living arrangements. Our schedules conflict, etc. She agreed to help pay and take care of the kids while I'm gone for 12 hours a day on mandatory overtime.

Over all, it went ok and she didn't say she wanted a divorce. She danced around the "lack of trust/emotional affair" issue. We were out for lunch, so I guess I didn't grill her too hard at the time.

I told her that I might want to follow up in the next day or two after I've had time to reflect.

I sent her a HUGE email yesterday. It was pretty heavy. I'll recap that in my next post.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

My email to her was epic and heavy.

I told her what I ultimately want, which is a happy, healthy, trustworthy, balanced marriage.

I asked her if she's still involved wirh her "friend," and told her that I feel she's been elusive about the whole thing.

Then I told her about my encounter/situation, in great detail.

I told her that we ended conversation, which is true.

She replied tonight and what she said pretty much nailed the coffin shut on our marriage.

She elaborated on her friend. She again admitted that she was emotionally involved with him in the past, then our big blowout happened in 2011. She started occassionally talking, flirting, she felt guilty.

She then spewed some disturbing stuff. She said that she thought about taking it farther but never did. She said, "like the time when you saw that transaction in his town, she was about to go to his place but went to the gas station, checked herself and didn't do it."

This is a different story than what she initially told me, which was that she was hanging out with her gay friend, who lived there...

She also said that she some days she wants to take it further (like currently).

She has lost respect for me and thinks I deserve to be with someone who respects me.

I have a giant email draft ready to send, but I haven't sent it yet.

The bottom line is that as she has lost respect for me, I have lost major respect for her and I think she's a liar, no doubt.

I'm about 99% sure we are getting divorced. Things can never be the same...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

The biggest issue I see is your working hours + her moving to her mom's. If she takes the kids with her, she is establishing a new home for the kids and you will have to fight to get any custody.


----------



## frustratedman

Bottom line - I have zero trust in my wife. I've now caught her in so many lies, it disgusts me. She will NEVER admit any wrong doing. She will take it to ger grave. I'm done.

However, I'm hoping we can save money and do mediation or basically go the least expensive, least damaging way possible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

frustratedman said:


> She then spewed some disturbing stuff. She said that she thought about taking it farther but never did. She said, "like the time when you saw that transaction in his town, she was about to go to his place but went to the gas station, *checked herself and didn't do it."*
> 
> This is a different story than what she initially told me, which was that she was hanging out with her gay friend, who lived there...
> 
> She also said that she some days she wants to take it further (like currently).


Translation: She has screwed him. At least one. Most likely A LOT.

The one TRUTH I've learned being here is if they admit to talking, they kissed. If they admit to kissing, they groped. If they admit to groping, they had clothes off. If they admit to having clothes off, they screwed.


----------



## frustratedman

turnera said:


> The biggest issue I see is your working hours + her moving to her mom's. If she takes the kids with her, she is establishing a new home for the kids and you will have to fight to get any custody.


No she's already said that the kids can stay here. I know that things may change but I'm hoping they stay amicable. When we're out of our lease, I'm guessing it will be 50/50 custody and we make similar money.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

Oh yeah, she had the nerve to say she was humiliated that I sent POSOM the fb message. She asked if I'd like it if she emailed the girl I met. I laugh at that. I met her in person once in a dark environment and we texted for a week! She's had some sort of relationship with this jack @$$ for YEARS!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

I'm repulsed by her at this point. It would take a lot for us to work out. She would have to submit to many demands.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Satya

Frustrated, you have some sweeping to do on your porch before you're ready for the next thing. Take care of that first. 

Funnily enough, the high you describe when it comes to this new girl is akin to the rush your STBX likely felt with the OM. Your marriage may be one foot in the grave but you are still married. 

You say this girl has integrity and won't go further until you're divorced. Well, watch her actions very carefully as you sweep your porch. Texting is still an emotional bond. I suspect that you hold her in high esteem for the present, but if something were to happen physically between you, which is highly likely, that respect for her would come into question, because actions speak louder than words. 

As someone said earlier, be worthy of her and if you want to pursue this as an eventual relationship, 1.) Divorce, 2.) Heal and learn to be happy alone, 3.) Take it slow.

What burns hot, burns fast.


----------



## Chaparral

Imho, the marriage is over when your spouse cheats. They just hide for their own motives. The paper work is just to straighten out tax issues for the govt.

Do you have a copy of the 180? Follow it to the letter. Many folks try to cherry pick it. That's a mistake.


----------



## G.J.

Please be careful thinking about the new girl as she may disappear as quickly as she appeared 

DONT build any thoughts up about her as at this stage you will attach to someone very easily and if that support went.......


----------



## frustratedman

Satya said:


> Frustrated, you have some sweeping to do on your porch before you're ready for the next thing. Take care of that first.
> 
> Funnily enough, the high you describe when it comes to this new girl is akin to the rush your STBX likely felt with the OM. Your marriage may be one foot in the grave but you are still married.
> 
> You say this girl has integrity and won't go further until you're divorced. Well, watch her actions very carefully as you sweep your porch. Texting is still an emotional bond. I suspect that you hold her in high esteem for the present, but if something were to happen physically between you, which is highly likely, that respect for her would come into question, because actions speak louder than words.
> 
> As someone said earlier, be worthy of her and if you want to pursue this as an eventual relationship, 1.) Divorce, 2.) Heal and learn to be happy alone, 3.) Take it slow.
> 
> What burns hot, burns fast.


These are all good points. Techincally, the new girl said, "I don't want to be emotionally invested in a man who's working on his marriage." But you're right. I'm a very sexually driven person and that's the hard part.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

G.J. said:


> Please be careful thinking about the new girl as she may disappear as quickly as she appeared
> 
> DONT build any thoughts up about her as at this stage you will attach to someone very easily and if that support went.......


I agree with this also. I mean honestly, what are the chances of any sort of relationship developing with the first girl that I've kissed besides my wife in 16 years? Realistiy, very slim.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

Chaparral said:


> Imho, the marriage is over when your spouse cheats. They just hide for their own motives. The paper work is just to straighten out tax issues for the govt.
> 
> Do you have a copy of the 180? Follow it to the letter. Many folks try to cherry pick it. That's a mistake.


Yes - I've been trying to adhere to the 180, however, I find it challenging at times.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

So I've got an email response drafted to her. I haven't sent it yet.

I typed it last night when I was a bit angry. It consists of the following:

* Since she was so humiliated by the fb message and she asked if I'd like her to contact my new friend, I address the difference between my one week relationship and her several year relationship and how the two are worlds apart.

* I brought up the fact that the level of lies from her is astounding. Before, when I brought up this transaction, she acted like I was crazy, now, the story has changed. Basically, I tell her that I've lost respect for her big time.

* I addrress him, basically saying, of course he seems interesting and showers you with attention and affection. That's what guys who want to hook up do. I also said, I wonder why he didn't end up getting married, did his fiancé end it? Basically, I tell her she needs to figure that out for herself. If she wants to "be with him," please do if it will make her happy, but just let me know so I can move forward too. I realize this is probably unhealthy but I want to get my two cents in.

* I basically tell her there is no point in continuing on because a month isn't going to change a damn thing.

Thoughts?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

You're still getting trickle-truth.

Sorry, but if she's been emotionally involved w/ someone to whom she's had physical access for YEARS, then there's just no way that they haven't done the deed.


----------



## frustratedman

GusPolinski said:


> You're still getting trickle-truth.
> 
> Sorry, but if she's been emotionally involved w/ someone to whom she's had physical access for YEARS, then there's just no way that they haven't done the deed.


I couldn't agree more. She just fears that I will tell people, which I have and will. She doesn't want to lose her "good girl" card. That thing is long gone. There are so many lies... It's like just give me the damn truth. I'm done. No further will I be working on the marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

So when are you filing?


----------



## happyman64

I have to agree Gus.

FM

You want to keep the divorce inexpensive. You know your wife is a liar and still lying to you.

Make an appointment with an attorney and your wife.

Go in together and discuss mediation for a divorce.

Keep it amicable, get it done and move on.

And let your new friend be just that. A friend. Until your marriage is dead and buried.

Keep the focus on you, your healing, your hair :grin2: and your kids.

If you do that then the world will be your oyster.

And if your friend really respects you then she will admire you for your positive changes.

The outcome is you will be attractive to any woman in a number of ways.

All positive my friend.

HM


----------



## carmen ohio

frustratedman said:


> . . . So, we had our big talk on Sunday . . .
> 
> * I told her that "something happened, but I didn't let it go too far." She didn't want details . . .
> 
> * She said she wants to move to her mom's and that she doesn't like the living arrangements. Our schedules conflict, etc. She agreed to help pay and take care of the kids while I'm gone for 12 hours a day on mandatory overtime.
> 
> Over all, it went ok and she didn't say she wanted a divorce. She danced around the "lack of trust/emotional affair" issue. We were out for lunch, so I guess I didn't grill her too hard at the time.
> 
> I told her that I might want to follow up in the next day or two after I've had time to reflect . . .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





frustratedman said:


> My email to her was epic and heavy.
> 
> I told her what I ultimately want, which is a happy, healthy, trustworthy, balanced marriage.
> 
> I asked her if she's still involved wirh her "friend," and told her that I feel she's been elusive about the whole thing.
> 
> Then I told her about my encounter/situation, in great detail.
> 
> I told her that we ended conversation, which is true.
> 
> She replied tonight and what she said pretty much nailed the coffin shut on our marriage.
> 
> The bottom line is that as she has lost respect for me, I have lost major respect for her and I think she's a liar, no doubt.
> 
> I'm about 99% sure we are getting divorced. Things can never be the same...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


fm,

At present, the two of you in the worst possible place -- trapped in an unhappy marriage where your only options are to suffer in silence or to continue cheating on each other. Your family would be much better off if the two of you could find it in your hearts to start being honest with each other and to try to renew your marriage. Your next best course of action would be for the two of you to admit that your marriage has failed, divorce on fair terms and then concentrate on raising your children as best you can.

One of you has to break the cycle of betrayal, deception and rug sweeping that has existed in your marriage for many years now. So it's time for you to lay your cards on the table and either tell her what you want from her and what you are prepared to do to save your marriage, or to start the divorce process.

Your smart enough to see that your marriage is only going to get worse if nothing changes, what with her wanting to separate and you wanting to start playing the field. For your children's sake, you need to avoid this outcome.

It's time for the frustrated man to become the action man.


----------



## turnera

frustratedman said:


> Basically, I tell her she needs to figure that out for herself. If she wants to "be with him," please do if it will make her happy, but *just let me know* so I can move forward too.


Wrong. That puts power over YOU in HER hands.

"I'm releasing you to be with your 'love,' who will probably dump you as soon as you're free, but I don't really care anymore. I can't trust you and I don't even want to be with you, so let me know when you will be moving out."


----------



## frustratedman

All I know is that I'm glad I didn't hit the "send" button. Had to think things through before sending the email I drafted.

I agree with most of what people are saying.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

I'm a writer, and one of the first things you learn is to NEVER send something until you've walked away from it for several hours and see it again with fresh hours.


----------



## frustratedman

Ugggh! I feel myself slipping into depression.

I'm just so hurt and feel so betrayed and blatantly disrespected by my wife. I can't believe a damn word she says.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky

How has sitting in the victim chair worked for you so far?


----------



## GusPolinski

frustratedman said:


> Ugggh! I feel myself slipping into depression.
> 
> I'm just so hurt and feel so betrayed and blatantly disrespected by my wife. *I can't believe a damn word she says.*


So then don't.


----------



## frustratedman

farsidejunky said:


> How has sitting in the victim chair worked for you so far?


Point well taken. I've decided not to email her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Be smart

I have told you at the beginning to Divorce her.

She was in Affair with him for 4 years,but I think it was even longer. She worked with him every single day man.

Also your talk didnt go to well. She never talked about Affair and she never apologize to you,but she did say to you that she want to live with her mom and some small talk about your hair ccc.

Why waste any more time with her ?


----------



## Mrs Chai

frustratedman said:


> Ugggh! I feel myself slipping into depression.
> 
> I'm just so hurt and feel so betrayed and blatantly disrespected by my wife. I can't believe a damn word she says.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



You need to 180 hard. I mean go at it with a vengeance. I went through most of your thread and I can see you've been slacking on it due to some of the choices you've made and interactions with your WW. 

You need to redirect your energy into something productive - there are lots of things on that list for you to do if you're not sure what to start with.


----------



## frustratedman

Mrs Chai said:


> You need to 180 hard. I mean go at it with a vengeance. I went through most of your thread and I can see you've been slacking on it due to some of the choices you've made and interactions with your WW.
> 
> You need to redirect your energy into something productive - there are lots of things on that list for you to do if you're not sure what to start with.


I feel like for me, which may be a unique situation, the 180 has been difficult due to my lack of confidence/hair issue. But, I'm working on that and all other areas of my life. My body's ripped, I'm doing my creative outlet (songwriting/playing guitar), doing new things, doing things that my "wife" hates but I love.

So that's where I stand on the 180. Still a work in progress, but coming along.

I just look forward to the next chapter of my life. My wife will one day regret losing me, that I'm sure of.

One thing that has been bothering me is the thought of her dating the POSOM. I can't tolerate my kids being exposed to a man with this sort of "moral compass," or lack thereof. It's not like it's some new guy she just met. She's been involved with this guy for over half of our marriage.

The fact that she has shown me the tip of the iceberg in her web of lies is disgusting.

I hope things don't get ugly but I do have a couple nuclear options if they do. I could possibly destroy both of their careers by exposing this affair to their employer.

I'll tell you what - if it was a month from now and my hair was rock solid and I was 100% confident, I'd be contacting the new girl. Our marriage has been a sham for so long, it just doesn't even matter anymore.

I don't even know this woman (my "wife," that is). I'm very confident that she's had "relations" with him, many times. She will NEVER admit it because she loves my family and wouldn't want her true colors to be shown.

End of rant!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

By the way, is OM married?


----------



## frustratedman

GusPolinski said:


> By the way, is OM married?


Nope. He was enguaged, but, not surprisingly, they didn't get married. I wonder why that is? Probably because his fiancé backed because he's a POS! 

I actually wrote that in my anger filled email that I didn't send. But, I want to be mature about it.

I also wrote (but didn't send) that yes - I'm sure he seems interesting and fun and he showers you with attention and affection. That's what guys do when they want to hook up.

Believe me - the email is loooong!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

It absolutely blows my mind that she said when I play guitar she wants to smash it. Again, not trying to "toot my own horn," but I've had many people compliment me, unsolicited. I couldn't handle the compliments at that time and would always reply with something like "oh I messed up that part," or something negative.

I can handle compliments better now. I've truly tried to become the best version of myself that I can be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

By the way, people, you should be proud of me. I just noticed the "edit" button! I should go back and fix all my spelling errors lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

Her email reply to me really sort of nailed the coffin. I had trouble believing her before. Now, it's damn near impossible to believe a word she says!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Two things. 
One, when my DD25 was making a 'list' of characteristics she wouldn't accept in a boyfriend, guitar player was one of them. Why? Because - at least back in high school - the boys would expect the girl to just sit there and listen in admiration as he played his guitar. All about him. I'm sure that's not your problem, but you can imagine how boring it might be for a woman to be expected to just listen. When is he just sitting there and listening to HER do something?

Two, and I'm sure we've discussed this before, but women in general aren't nearly as visual as men when it comes to picking a partner. We usually pick a mate based on his personality, if he likes to talk and listen, if he's gentle and understanding. Looks don't matter nearly as much as they do for men. So don't be so discouraged.


----------



## Archangel2

frustratedman said:


> Thanks for checking, 55!
> 
> So, we had our big talk on Sunday. Here's a breakdown:
> 
> 
> ...She related my always wearing a hat to living with an alcoholic. Like if we're planning on doing this or that, how will I cope without my ball cap. I think this is a big time stretch but do agree it's been a problem that I'm now dealing with...
> 
> ...She DESPISES my guitar playing. She said every time I play a "sad song," she wants to smash my guitar into pieces...
> 
> * I told her I'm doing things that make me happy and not feeling ashamed about it. For example, she hates bluegrass music and I like some of it. I'm doing things I enjoy, etc.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What an unbelievably shallow person. So she preferred OM who had relationship problems and was (if I recall correctly) an alcoholic?


----------



## frustratedman

Archangel2 said:


> What an unbelievably shallow person. So she preferred OM who had relationship problems and was (if I recall correctly) an alcoholic?


Yes - you are correct.

I just spent an hour talking on the phone with my folks and giving them the update. The update is that I have a set of balls and will no longer tolerate the bull $#!t that my "wife" has put me through. Sadly, they feel like they were used. They've helped my wife and her family in many various ways. They're definitely most concerned with the kids.

In my wife's defense, she HAS been asking me to do something about it (for me, not for her), for years. I truly didn't know this option existed. I felt lost and unhappy with myself. This isn't just about the baldness, but more about the transplant, which, again, is a huge regret.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

But, when a couple makes vows, it's for "good times and bad and in sickness and in health."

I get where she's coming from, to a degree. But, I truly believe if she got disfigured in an accident, I would stay by her side, no matter what.

My guess on her future: She'll go with POSOM for a while, realize he's a POS, then she'll go after a rich guy with no personality, get a boob job, fix her stomach from having kids, live a luxurious life in a nice house and be unhappy. My mom agreed with my assessment. She is truly beautiful and won't have trouble finding one of many suitors.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

turnera said:


> Two things.
> One, when my DD25 was making a 'list' of characteristics she wouldn't accept in a boyfriend, guitar player was one of them. Why? Because - at least back in high school - the boys would expect the girl to just sit there and listen in admiration as he played his guitar. All about him. I'm sure that's not your problem, but you can imagine how boring it might be for a woman to be expected to just listen. When is he just sitting there and listening to HER do something?
> 
> Two, and I'm sure we've discussed this before, but women in general aren't nearly as visual as men when it comes to picking a partner. We usually pick a mate based on his personality, if he likes to talk and listen, if he's gentle and understanding. Looks don't matter nearly as much as they do for men. So don't be so discouraged.


Ok - so this totally isn't what my playing is/was like. I would never just make her sit there and watch me play. She didn't even like to lightly hear it in the background.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Archangel2

So Frustrated - Speaking as an advocate for Retrouvaille as one last attempt to save a marriage, when are you going to pull the divorce trigger?


----------



## frustratedman

It's funny though, because I assure you that I will re-ignite my passion for music and songwriting. I'm actually looking forward to the day I've completed a recording, it sounds awesome and she hears it from one of my kids or something!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

Archangel2 said:


> So Frustrated - Speaking as an advocate for Retrouvaille as one last attempt to save a marriage, when are you going to pull the divorce trigger?


I'm taking a couple days to cool down. Then I'll see if she wants to talk. At that time, I'll explain that I have no desire to work on the marriage any longer since the admission of this transaction. Again, way back when I was scouering all our records, I brought up these transactions and she acted like I was crazy. Now, the story has changed. That makes ALL these little questionable things come into play. I can no longer believe anything she says!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

It would take a TON for me to want to reconcile at this point. I feel like about half of our marriage has been a sham!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

So I cooled down a bit.

I will offer her an ultimatum. Archangel got me thinking. I will say either we do Retrouvaille or there is no use waiting another month, or two, etc.

I just want to never look back with regret that I didn't try my hardest.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Archangel2

frustratedman said:


> ...I just want to never look back with regret that I didn't try my hardest.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Frustrated - Good for you. Just remember, for Retrouvaille to have any chance to work, you have to be "all in", going not only for the weekend but also all the follow ups. If either of you mails it in, you will fail.

Good luck.


----------



## frustratedman

Archangel2 said:


> Frustrated - Good for you. Just remember, for Retrouvaille to have any chance to work, you have to be "all in", going not only for the weekend but also all the follow ups. If either of you mails it in, you will fail.
> 
> Good luck.


I'm pretty sure she'll decline, which is expected. But if we do the same thing we've been doing, there is no point in carrying on "working on ourselves individually." She has been checked out for a while. She fact that she's admitted to even now "wanting to take the relationship further some days," with POSOM make the chances even worse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

Have you spoken to an attorney yet?

You can cancel the D at any time, even the morning of it being final.

Her EA / PA has gone on for years and you have known about it.

She doesn't think you have the nads to file for D.

Prove her wrong


----------



## Mrs Chai

_Why_ are you still asking her for things? You need to _DO something_. I feel like giving her an ultimatum is still giving her the reigns to your relationship. File for a D - like someone said earlier you can withdraw this at any time. Show some initiative that you will not stand for her disrespect. When she gets the D papers and she starts to waffle because "Oh my god he did file this is real." That's when you throw down the transparency and reconciliation talk. You've said several times in this thread that you are done with this relationship but when I check back I see you trying to drag her back in!

That or she'll sign them and you can start to live your life again.


_You are cherry picking things in the 180_.* The 180 does not work if you only do one or two things.* The way you post about her doesn't convince me that you've really reflected on the purpose of the 180.


----------



## Jasel

After reading this entire thread I cannot believe neither has filed for divorce yet. Not sure what the OP or the WW are waiting for exactly...


----------



## frustratedman

I guess I haven't yet because frankly, I never planned on divorcing and neither of us want to not be with the kids.

However, you're all correct. There has just been way too much damage done. I'll probably not offer Retrouvaille, upon further review.

I was trying to take the "high road," but I'll probably look like a fool to her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

The high road is for nice guys. 

Nice guys finish last.

She filed for divorce now give it to her.

"Neither of you want half the time with your kids."

But if that was really true she never would of had an affair or filed for divorce.....

HM


----------



## Chuck71

My XW wanted us to remain M and "do our own thing." I replied... No..we need

to work on our M and seek MC. She refused. I dropped the D on her. Did it hurt

when I had to fill out the D papers? Oh he!! yes it did. It was maybe three days

after I left the house (until D was final), she started reaching. There were several

huge reaches. But it was not what I was wanting to hear.

In early December '12... I was a basket case. She made sure I overheard her on

the phone talking to her friends about what they were going to do after work.

In early January '13.... I stepped into the light. I realized there is a life out there...

without her. She realized "this is real" and this is where the reaches began.

In early February... right around the time of D.... when we had to meet about the D

or right after D when she moved out and we were doing the "dog swap" ... I stared

her square in the eyes with conviction. I was looking right through her. Her.....

she had red bumps all around her mouth and face.... nerves. XW even said

she does not know what she is doing from one day to the next. I don't know

if she heard me or not (doesn't matter) but I did say "That's not my fvcking 

problem anymore."

It's like riding a bike FM..... first step's the hardest. If you look at how you 

have had to live the last several years.... how much worse can this be?

I rode the he!! coaster three years ago. I came out better than when I entered it.

You can too....


----------



## GusPolinski

frustratedman said:


> I guess I haven't yet because frankly, I never planned on divorcing and neither of us want to not be with the kids.
> 
> However, you're all correct. There has just been way too much damage done. I'll probably not offer Retrouvaille, upon further review.
> 
> *I was trying to take the "high road,"* but I'll probably look like a fool to her.


OK, I'm calling bullsh*t on this.

The "high road" means divorcing and moving on amicably, all while _actively_ doing everything possible to keep any animosity, venom, etc out of your dealings w/ her.

What you're doing -- actually, what the BOTH of you are doing -- is sitting around and being an impotent weenie, desperately hoping that she'll be the one to pull the plug so that you can say that the divorce was all her idea, all her fault, all on her, etc.

Stop waiting around for her to determine your future and do what you know needs to be done.


----------



## frustratedman

GusPolinski said:


> OK, I'm calling bullsh*t on this.
> 
> The "high road" means divorcing and moving on amicably, all while _actively_ doing everything possible to keep any animosity, venom, etc out of your dealings w/ her.
> 
> What you're doing -- actually, what the BOTH of you are doing -- is sitting around and being an impotent weenie, desperately hoping that she'll be the one to pull the plug so that you can say that the divorce was all her idea, all her fault, all on her, etc.
> 
> Stop waiting around for her to determine your future and do what you know needs to be done.


I guess part of me never wants to look back with regret like I didn't try everything possible, but when I look at the facts, you're right. Bottom line - I don't think I can ever trust her again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

If you can't trust... you can't love. Not in a healthy way.

Maybe one day you could.... after spending quite a few years apart.

You can think you can still love and not trust but you are setting yourself up for a horrendous life.


----------



## frustratedman

Chuck71 said:


> If you can't trust... you can't love. Not in a healthy way.
> 
> Maybe one day you could.... after spending quite a few years apart.
> 
> You can think you can still love and not trust but you are setting yourself up for a horrendous life.


You're right Chuck. I've already sort of lived a horrendous life for the last 4 years...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

frustratedman said:


> You're right Chuck. I've already sort of lived a horrendous life for the last 4 years...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You have probably been so miserable you have forgotten what it is to be "truly happy"

Now you can convince yourself you think you are happy.... you've done that for awhile.

You have virtually chained yourself to a water heater and closed your eyes hoping it will go away.

Hence your butterflies when another female paid attention to you... ya know like how a puppy acts

at the animal shelter.... given attention, they almost pee on themselves.

For all you know that female could have been M too.... or in a LTR with someone.

Take time to get to know who you are.... now, not who you were in 1995. 

Write an album about "moving on" ..... your life will go on without her. Your kids will still be

your kids. When / if you do choose to move on.... yes you will miss her.... that's a given.

But you will no longer worry and cause ulcers in your stomach worrying if she is cheating on you.


----------



## Archangel2

frustratedman said:


> I guess I haven't yet because frankly, I never planned on divorcing and neither of us want to not be with the kids.
> 
> However, you're all correct. There has just been way too much damage done. I'll probably not offer Retrouvaille, upon further review.
> 
> I was trying to take the "high road," but I'll probably look like a fool to her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Frustrated - I do not think you would look like a fool if you offered Retrouvaille. If anything it would have upside potential:

1. If it is successful, then you have a chance to reconcile.

2. If she turns you down, then you divorce. It would make you look like the good guy who made every last attempt to save the marriage.
You can tell your friends who think she is "saint goody two shoes" that she turned you down for a life with OM loser.

3. If she goes and mails it in, see #2 above.

4. If she goes and you agree that it won't work, then you divorce amicably.

With all due respect, I get the sense that you have been spinning your wheels over the last few years, unable to make a move.

For the sake of all of us who have supported you, please do something.

Good luck


----------



## Archangel2

Mrs Chai said:


> ...You are cherry picking things in the 180[/I].* The 180 does not work if you only do one or two things.* The way you post about her doesn't convince me that you've really reflected on the purpose of the 180.


:iagree: I think this is the reason why you are spinning your wheels. You've got to develop your mental self discipline and toughness,


----------



## Chuck71

If you still want to try and work things out with her, I'll support and give you advice, best I can.

But it takes two to marry, two to destroy a marriage, and two to re-build it. One can not do any of the three


----------



## frustratedman

Again, you all provide great insight.

I appreciate everyone's input.

Bottom line - when I'm confident not wearing a baseball cap, that's when my new life will begin. That whole thing has had a giant impact on EVERY element of my life. I'm confident and happy with everything else about me and who I am. It's impacted my relationships, my job, even my music.

I just shaved my head again today. I'm getting used to it. It's not all the way done, but it looks pretty damn good. Better than I thought.

The whole thing (the affair, my wife no longer loving me, the feeling of being alone, the rush of new romance, my new look/hair) has made this last roughly 100 days a craziest part of my life's journey.

This weekend we're going to have a short conversation. I had planned it with the whole Retrouvaille idea in mind. She agreed to the talk and doesn't know what I have to say. I don't know if she has anything to say.

I'm going to offer to do that and if she declines, I'm going to tell her that I no longer have intentions of working on the marriage. Then I will review my lawyer options (I've briefly contacted or been suggested 3). Also, there's a movie called Divorce Corp on Netflix right now that I'd like to watch. It's about how messed up the family court system is in the US. I'd like to explore the mediation option.

This should be easy. Our bank accounts are already separate, our vehicles are in our own name and we rent our house. Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately, I don't have much. Neither does she. However, we've always had what we need to get by and our kids have a damn good life. My only question is around how much is in her 401k. I've taken withdrawls on mine over the years for family energency type of situations. I don't know how much of a battle it will be, if there even is a battle.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chuck71

I don't have the hair I did back in 1995. Vast majority of guys don't. In Dec '12 / Jan '13 it honestly bothered

me about my hair. I was talking to my former IC / best female friend about it....

"For God freaking sake.... you're now what, 40? If you date a female and she has concerns about

your hair.... tell her to get back to high school, the office will realize she is skipping class." She went on to say,

"A woman looking for a man and a LTR will not look at the hair, that is maybe 100th on their needs list.

And if she is near your age or older and she says that.... she will be the type to order the highest thing on

the menu and eat two bites, will want more jewelry than a jewel thief, and will only have sex with you

when she wants something." I've known her 25 years.... she usually hits the nail on the head.

She was my IC through my 2nd love blow up, helped me with my D until I refused to follow her lead

on why STBXW is how she is, and even a bit with my ex gf from 2013-14.... I cut her off completely

as an IC after this. Granted she is M now and has two kids, her viewpoint changed. But I will always be

thankful for sharing with me back in '94 how other females think when they attempt to manipulate.


----------



## frustratedman

The hardest part of this whole thing is letting go and thinking of her with someone else. I guess I need to focus on not her outer beauty, but her deceptiveness. I think it would be a lot easier once I experience new love, sex, etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

I think it would be a lot easier if you would instead focus 24/7 on learning to love yourself no matter HOW you look.


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## Be smart

Man why do you keep talking about your hair ?

This is your life,your marriage and you are doing almost nothing.

Two or three days ago you wanted to talk about your marriage with your wife,but both of you keep talking about your hair and your music style. ccc

There is only one good point from that,she told you she is going to live with her mom.
She never talked about her 4 year affair and she never apologizeć to you.


----------



## Chuck71

frustratedman said:


> The hardest part of this whole thing is letting go and thinking of her with someone else. I guess I need to focus on not her outer beauty, but her deceptiveness. I think it would be a lot easier once I experience new love, sex, etc.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Get that MFing focus OFF of HER. If you don't you will remain in a state of scared helplessness.

Did it bother me thinking "what if" I ran into my XW in the store with another guy? It did... I admit it.

The truth was... would I be jealous or feel pity for him. It was pity.

I have spoken on my 1st love often in my LaD thread. I will always love who she was. Always....

We can't have a tomorrow. Stroll down memory lane, sure. Sex a few times... oh yes.

She is a country gal too, just like XW. 1st love still cleans up a knockout. WC did as well early on, before

she was enslaved by pharmaceuticals. 1st love has no problem getting men's attention.

I know what she is on the inside. Damaged to the core. Her childhood was miserable.

He!! she was running when we met in HS. She is still running to this day. If she came from a loving, stable home...

I honestly think we would be celebrating our 25th wedding anniversary around this time.

I still wish to be her friend, always will. But no love will be rekindled.

She deserved a much better life than she has lived and I truly mean that.

She is broken. Has been since childhood. 

It is 110% acceptable to always love someone from whom they were in the past.

Who my XW was near the end.... she was a stranger.


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## Chuck71

PS-When you love yourself.... the world notices quickly. They will matriculate to you often.

If you do not love yourself, WTF should a woman wanting a LTR?


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## frustratedman

Be smart said:


> Man why do you keep talking about your hair ?
> 
> This is your life,your marriage and you are doing almost nothing.
> 
> Two or three days ago you wanted to talk about your marriage with your wife,but both of you keep talking about your hair and your music style. ccc
> 
> There is only one good point from that,she told you she is going to live with her mom.
> She never talked about her 4 year affair and she never apologizeć to you.


Yeah I understand. Not trying to sound vain. It's just a huge deal.

I don't think it's fair to say I have done almost nothing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

Chuck71 said:


> PS-When you love yourself.... the world notices quickly. They will matriculate to you often.
> 
> If you do not love yourself, WTF should a woman wanting a LTR?


This is absolutely true. Unfortunately, I am only beginning to love myself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chuck71

A beginning will always trump a nothing....


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## frustratedman

Chuck71 said:


> A beginning will always trump a nothing....


True! I'm trying to stay focused on the positives and myself, that's for sure.

I guess it doesn't help that she hasn't moved out yet... When we talked last Sunday, she said she never wants our boys to feel like they've been abandoned and started crying. The whole situation is hard on all parties involved. She is a great mother and overall, a great person. She's broken on the inside, like myself I guess.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chuck71

She should have thought about that before she accepted the arms of another man.

Yes... from what you indicate she is broken. What was her childhood like? It may have been asked before,

if so, lead me to the post where you went in depth about it.

She has destroyed four lives by her actions. Yes that did cross her mind while she did the "love dance" with

POSOM. Accountability and responsibility leads to trust. With me at least.

She rugswept the EA (I suspect PA) and that kills both paths to trust.


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## frustratedman

Chuck71 said:


> She should have thought about that before she accepted the arms of another man.
> 
> Yes... from what you indicate she is broken. What was her childhood like? It may have been asked before,
> 
> if so, lead me to the post where you went in depth about it.
> 
> She has destroyed four lives by her actions. Yes that did cross her mind while she did the "love dance" with
> 
> POSOM. Accountability and responsibility leads to trust. With me at least.
> 
> She rugswept the EA (I suspect PA) and that kills both paths to trust.


She's got "daddy issues," in my opinion. Her dad was an alcoholic, which is why her grandpa turned into her father figure. Also, her mom was 17 when she had my wife. Her dad has missed good chunks of time in her life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

Her dad was in a biker gang, etc. A troubled upbringing, but her mom did a fair job of bringing up my wife and her sister on her own.

That's another thing... divorce is fairly normal on her side. Her female role models are all divorced.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Be smart

Well now she is thinking about your kids . This woman is making me crazy.

About my previous post. I know it is a huge deal for you,confidence boost and I am glad that you feel great about it,but you should really put more effort in your decision making.

Do you really want to sit in the house with kids while she is still working with OM? Still keeping the truth away from you and never apologize to you?

Your wife should ask for your forgivnes,for R to work together on your marriage,no contact with OM... She did nothing man and you still want to be married to her


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## Archangel2

Frustrated -How are things going?


----------



## frustratedman

Hi Archangel! I've been meaning to update, so thanks for posting.

We had our 2nd big talk after I sent her the heavy email. The 2nd big talk was about 3 weeks ago. 

It started with her saying she's pretty sure she wants a divorce. Then, we talked for an hour, during which time she cried a little. We discussed several issues:

1. She doesn't want to move to her mom's and disrupt the kids life.

2. She grieved ever since reading my email, saying that she's not sure she can ever "give me what I need." She was clearly impacted by what I had told her about the girl I had met and kissed. For example, she doesn't have any passion for music/art/etc.

3. She says that her relationship with OM is an issue, but it's minor and it's not what this whole thing is about. I look at this as minimizing.

4. I told her that I am ready and willing to move on with or without her, but I still love her and will fight for our marriage until the end. This is assuming that I can deal with the possible physical contact, which she still swears nothing physical has occurred. I told her about Retrouvaille and asked her to consider it.

The Thanksgiving plan was that my younger boy and I were traveling 4 hours to my home town to be with my family and the older boy and my wife were staying home to be with her family. Wednesday, right before I was going to leave work, I get an email from her. She wished us safe travels and then said something that dang near made me fall out of my chair - she researched Retrouvaille and is willing to try it!

I'll post more in a bit... On break at work!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chuck71

Give defiant people what they want

it never turns out as they had planned


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## Marduk

frustratedman said:


> Hi Archangel! I've been meaning to update, so thanks for posting.
> 
> We had our 2nd big talk after I sent her the heavy email. The 2nd big talk was about 3 weeks ago.
> 
> It started with her saying she's pretty sure she wants a divorce. Then, we talked for an hour, during which time she cried a little. We discussed several issues:
> 
> 1. She doesn't want to move to her mom's and disrupt the kids life.
> 
> 2. She grieved ever since reading my email, saying that she's not sure she can ever "give me what I need." She was clearly impacted by what I had told her about the girl I had met and kissed. For example, she doesn't have any passion for music/art/etc.
> 
> 3. She says that her relationship with OM is an issue, but it's minor and it's not what this whole thing is about. I look at this as minimizing.
> 
> 4. I told her that I am ready and willing to move on with or without her, but I still love her and will fight for our marriage until the end. This is assuming that I can deal with the possible physical contact, which she still swears nothing physical has occurred. I told her about Retrouvaille and asked her to consider it.
> 
> The Thanksgiving plan was that my younger boy and I were traveling 4 hours to my home town to be with my family and the older boy and my wife were staying home to be with her family. Wednesday, right before I was going to leave work, I get an email from her. She wished us safe travels and then said something that dang near made me fall out of my chair - she researched Retrouvaille and is willing to try it!
> 
> I'll post more in a bit... On break at work!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


#3 made me laugh... talk about the elephant in the room!

http://youtu.be/-4EDhdAHrOg

Keep on focusing on you. You will get over this. Get her out of the house.


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## Be smart

*3 her relationship with OM is what brought you here and he is the key for your problems.

Why would you even talk about R


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## frustratedman

Alright - so back to the update now that I'm done with my 11 hour shift!

I found the timing a bit strange. It's almost like she was making sure that I didn't get into any shenanigans in my home town, which is small and has many bars, per capita. She knew I'd be going out drinking with friends home for the holidays and local friends.

I had a great time back home. Family was great and supportive. I did/do feel a strong desire to talk to women. I'm not sure if this is just a primal thing since I kind of felt discarded or what! I did my share of flirting and sort of reconnected with a girl from my past. Is this sort of thing normal? 

On the drive home, the new girl wished me a happy Thanksgiving. We exchanged a few texts. It was nice and boosted my mood. But that was it.

Anyhow, at this point, neither of us are in a position to move out. I'm used to the pseudo separation under the same roof. I'm still working on myself in every way I can.

Call it wishful thinking or call me crazy, but I do believe there is a chance that: a) she didn't physically cheat and b) there is a possibility that we can reconcile, recover and one day have a great and healthy marriage.

I went to IC last night and that was, once again, time and money well spent.

I love my wife and my family, very much. I am, however, mentally prepared to move forward, with or without her. We have 25 years of history and many memories. She is a great person but she has obviouy made poor choices.

If we do Retrouvaille and it's successful, it will take a lot of work on both sides for our relationship to heal. We will also need to renew our vows. That is critical.

There is a caveat. If she admits that they had sex, I'm outta there.

So you all can support me or call me a fool. You may be right. Maybe I am a fool. Either way, I'll never look back with regrets. I'm trying to leave no stone unturned. If this doesn't work, it gives us time to prepare to go our separate ways, figure out where we'll each live, etc.

I am waaay stronger than I was before. I have much more confidence. I know I will love and be loved again. Life's tough. It's all how you handle it. For a long time, I handled things poorly and I wasn't strong, but over the last 4 minths, that has changed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

How will you know if they ever had sex? You've made it clear that if it went physical then you're done. So even if it did why would she ever admit it? How will you ever discover the truth? Better question, do you really want to know the truth?


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## MattMatt

Keep on keeping on. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

bfree said:


> How will you know if they ever had sex? You've made it clear that if it went physical then you're done. So even if it did why would she ever admit it? How will you ever discover the truth? Better question, do you really want to know the truth?


I would like and deserve the truth. I think that when we do Retrouvaille and establish good communication, that will lead to good things. 

Either way, it will benefit both of us. Just because I'm not following the standard TAM protocol doesn't make what I'm doing bad or incorrect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

As mentioned, I'm not in a place where I can move out. She COULD move to her mom's but since I'm gone 12.5 hours a day working mandatory OT, I can't properly care for the kids at the moment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## naiveonedave

Why would she ever admit to sex, if you have told her that is a deal breaker? Based on what I read in this thread, if she didn't get physical, I would be very surprised.


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## bfree

frustratedman said:


> I would like and deserve the truth. I think that when we do Retrouvaille and establish good communication, that will lead to good things.
> 
> Either way, it will benefit both of us. Just because I'm not following the standard TAM protocol doesn't make what I'm doing bad or incorrect.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My point is that you've left her no out. If the affair did go physical and she confesses the truth you'll divorce. If she can't be honest with you the marriage will most likely suffer and you'll divorce. Even if their affair wasn't physical (highly unlikely but possible) you'll always have doubts and the marriage will again suffer. So how can you successfully reconcile?


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## JohnA

Then a Polly

Then she passed but these test aren't 100 percent.

Then made another Polly. 

Or mixed results

Repeat

There was one poster who advised to look for tester trained by the military criminal investigation units. The way they administer the test made a difference.


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## Chuck71

If she says no on PA.... would you honestly believe her? If she said yes, you're gone.

as Bfree said it's a no win situation. Just me..... I feel something did happen and W regrets it on some level.

If she could turn back time, would she... where she never even started the EA with him? She would...

This stand off has went on so long, maybe she just wants it over, and doesn't care what the ending is.

You have to stand by your convictions though. No couples therapy group can help you if in your heart,

you feel she did. And if so, you're gone.

Maybe it's the fear of finally having to accept the fact she did 100%.


----------



## frustratedman

Your posts have got me thinking... Am I afraid to know the truth? No. I just need to know. Will I ever? I hope so.

It's a known fact that's she's betrayed me... for a long time. She intentionally made selfish choices and held her "friendship" higher than our marriage.

I believe if we go through Retrouvaille, our communication would improve, thus leading to good things and a new openness.

If things don't work, it is what it is and I tried my best. I still love my wife. She has hurt me. Can I forgive her? I believe it's possible if I know what I'm forgiving. Would it be worth it? Yes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chuck71

I have been through Rs before but NOT at the level of saving a M. I am glad to offer advice but I will say,

I have no experience in a M reconciliation. FM.... are you saying.... if she and POSOM only did the deed, 

one time, or just a few, you are willing to look past this? I'm not saying either way you should go.

I know what I would do but.... in my D, we didn't have kids so.... I have not faced what you are.

It takes two to M, two to destroy it and two to rebuild it. There is nothing singular about a M.

What I'm saying is.... I want, whatever you want. But make the choice you can live with, either way.


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## JohnA

You really need to go back and read your thread. I get the sense even though your wife has a caregiver personify, that credit is about to be maxed out.

One pic on a "rare GNO oh but she was losing weight" without her ring in 2011(?). You nailed her on it and I have not seen a mention of it happening at all.

She mentions regret at the nature of your proposal in 2011. You could have said young and dumb wait till 2015.

Wife caregiver personality goes into overdrive with loser. You demand she stop. She has difficulty doing so, that's her nature.
(but you are still having sex how many times a week?)

Now you have yourself the start of an OW. 

If this marries dies it is on you. At this point I got to think the only reason she is still with you is she hated growing up in a broken homes.

Get some real proof or do her a favor and let her move on.


----------



## JohnA

PS we know how you are doing, what about her?


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## happyman64

You know FM I do hope you and you W go to Retrouvaille.

I think I is important that she totally buy into the program and actively help you coordinate setting up the appointment.

And I do not think you are a fool.

You are a man trying to fix your marriage after your W has been unfaithful and dishonest.

If you do get her to go please be ready to listen to her and watch her actions.

You deserve the truth. I hope you get it.

I also hope you see an honest effort from your W.

And if after the R session she still wants a divorce then gladly give it to her no matter how badly it hurts.

HM


----------



## frustratedman

JohnA said:


> You really need to go back and read your thread. I get the sense even though your wife has a caregiver personify, that credit is about to be maxed out.
> 
> One pic on a "rare GNO oh but she was losing weight" without her ring in 2011(?). You nailed her on it and I have not seen a mention of it happening at all.
> 
> She mentions regret at the nature of your proposal in 2011. You could have said young and dumb wait till 2015.
> 
> Wife caregiver personality goes into overdrive with loser. You demand she stop. She has difficulty doing so, that's her nature.
> (but you are still having sex how many times a week?)
> 
> Now you have yourself the start of an OW.
> 
> If this marries dies it is on you. At this point I got to think the only reason she is still with you is she hated growing up in a broken homes.
> 
> Get some real proof or do her a favor and let her move on.


I have trouble following this, John A. All I know about what you wrote is that I totally disagree with the statement "if this marriage dies it's on you."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

happyman64 said:


> You know FM I do hope you and you W go to Retrouvaille.
> 
> I think I is important that she totally buy into the program and actively help you coordinate setting up the appointment.
> 
> And I do not think you are a fool.
> 
> You are a man trying to fix your marriage after your W has been unfaithful and dishonest.
> 
> If you do get her to go please be ready to listen to her and watch her actions.
> 
> You deserve the truth. I hope you get it.
> 
> I also hope you see an honest effort from your W.
> 
> And if after the R session she still wants a divorce then gladly give it to her no matter how badly it hurts.
> 
> HM


I agree with all of this! If the marriage can't begin to heal after Retrouvaille, I'd say we've exhausted all options and should divorce.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JohnA

Hello FM,

Your marriage has been in this cycle for four years. 4 years ago a GNO with a pic without her ring and very poor excuse. 4 years ago some type of relationship with an older out of shape alcoholic. But, sex was good during this period - with you. Since then 4 years of checking phone logs, checking home computer, four years of questioning. If she did not commit adultery all you have done is drive her away. 

If she came to you and said I want to take a poly just to shut you up, you pick who and when. Would your first thought be "she's figured out a way to beat it" ? Would we add another ten pages to this thread with you going around on this subject?

AGAIN: I have skimmed your thread, and have only re-read the first 20 pages. I APOLOGIZE IF I MISSED SOMETHING. In some ways I am you. My ex wife exhibited many of the same traits as your's. After one lame excuse a key logger and snap shot program went on the home computer. Three days later - yup you guessed it. If I did miss something (besides this could mean something) please indicate post number in a new post. 

Again, I apologize if I am wrong but 4 years of this drama has to stop.


----------



## frustratedman

JohnA said:


> Hello FM,
> 
> Your marriage has been in this cycle for four years. 4 years ago a GNO with a pic without her ring and very poor excuse. 4 years ago some type of relationship with an older out of shape alcoholic. But, sex was good during this period - with you. Since then 4 years of checking phone logs, checking home computer, four years of questioning. If she did not commit adultery all you have done is drive her away.
> 
> If she came to you and said I want to take a poly just to shut you up, you pick who and when. Would your first thought be "she's figured out a way to beat it" ? Would we add another ten pages to this thread with you going around on this subject?
> 
> AGAIN: I have skimmed your thread, and have only re-read the first 20 pages. I APOLOGIZE IF I MISSED SOMETHING. In some ways I am you. My ex wife exhibited many of the same traits as your's. After one lame excuse a key logger and snap shot program went on the home computer. Three days later - yup you guessed it. If I did miss something (besides this could mean something) please indicate post number in a new post.
> 
> Again, I apologize if I am wrong but 4 years of this drama has to stop.


Yeah - it's a long, poorly written thread and I don't expect you or anyone to read it at this point. No apology needed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

Here's an attempt at a bullet point summary.

* High school sweethearts, shotgun marriage at the end of college.

* 12 years into marriage, discovered her EA.

* Went to counselling and she agreed no contact with OM, unless work related.

* First year of R, I thought things were good, we both read 5 languages, worked on things, etc.

* Over time, the EA F'd me up. Low self confidence, felt threatened. This made me less attractive to her. In the back of my mind, it seemed like she was still in contact with OM.

* 4 years later, confirmed she was.

* That's where we are today.

There are a million other details, but that's the quick version.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JohnA

As to being poorly written - who's is when posting while in crisis. Clarity comes later in their thread and blooms on other threads when the crisis is resolved. As to not reading your thread: you did see where I said in some respects we are the same? 

Try recapping your thread. Be sure to include her hesitation in answering the question in MC. 

If she is on the whole innocent, the past four years may have turn her into a WAW. 

Could you try answering my question on my last post about a Polly?


----------



## frustratedman

The whole poly thing is off the table for me. If things are that bad, what's the point?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

My surveillance/investigation consisted of: cell phone bills/usage, financial records, keylogger and gps for a couple months.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

Never found smoking gun evidence. She claims 100% nothing physical has ever happened.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

frustratedman said:


> Never found smoking gun evidence. She claims 100% nothing physical has ever happened.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm glad that you and your wife are doing better. Retrouville is an extremely positive development. Would you consider using the initial Retrouville weekend as an opportunity for her to be completely honest with no repercussions? If she says they had sex will you take divorce of the table so long as things continue to improve in the marriage?


----------



## frustratedman

Who I am and my story may not be "standard" TAM material. I haven't followed all recommendations but I have followed many and discovered many new things. But, it is what it is. If people are sick of this thread or my handling of the situation, they can stop posting.

This is my life and I have to live with the end result. 

Bottom line - I want to give this marriage all I've got. If she had sex with him, I hope she has the maturity and nerve to admit it to save me the headache.

If she didn't, we do Retrouvaille, both work our a$$es off, heal, renew our vows and things work out, that would be incredible.

This is nearly a 17 year marriage with 25 years of history. I know I've grown a TON in the last 4 months since we've been "separated." I'm thinking she has also. The fact that she wants to try Retrouvaille itself was very surprising.

Maybe she agreed for an ulterior motive. I'm not sure. All I know is that either way, I'll look back with zero regret and I KNOW I'll survive and will have a great life with or without her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

bfree said:


> I'm glad that you and your wife are doing better. Retrouville is an extremely positive development. Would you consider using the initial Retrouville weekend as an opportunity for her to be completely honest with no repercussions? If she says they had sex will you take divorce of the table so long as things continue to improve in the marriage?


It's not like that. If I said, "I want a divorce," right now, she wouldn't try to stop me, so I can't use it as a bargaining chip.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chuck71

Take "if you had sex with him, it's over" off the table. Go to Retro.

If you take that off the table, you will most likely hear the truth, or at least a better chance at it.

Then.... if you hear she did..... you have a decision to make.

But.... if you take this off the table and she still says no..... what position will you take?


----------



## frustratedman

Chuck71 said:


> Take "if you had sex with him, it's over" off the table. Go to Retro.
> 
> If you take that off the table, you will most likely hear the truth, or at least a better chance at it.
> 
> Then.... if you hear she did..... you have a decision to make.
> 
> But.... if you take this off the table and she still says no..... what position will you take?


If she says "no" to giving the marriage another try, then we're done, obviously.

If I take it off the table, she wants to reconcile and volunteers to tell me "we did this or that," then I make decision to or not to forgive, based on what it was.

If I take this off the table, she wants to reconcile and we eventually renew our vows and she still says 100% nothing happened, then I have to assume in my brain that nothing happened, let go of the past and move forward in a renewed, loving, trusting relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chuck71

You're giving it a chance..... I commend you for that. When you try all avenues, you have no regrets.... leave it on the field.

If she says no and you accept that, re-new you vows..... three words of advice.....

Forgive or re-live.

I'm pulling for ya!


----------



## Cynthia

I’ve been following this thread for quite a long time, but I don’t think I’ve ever posted in it.

I’m sorry that you are sensitive about your hair and this has been aggravated by the issues with your wife. I am very curious about what kind of procedure you have had done to correct the problem. Can you enlighten us, please? Did it work? Are you happy with how you look now?

Are you still flirting/texting with the young woman at work?




frustratedman said:


> That said, when I told her that I don't think I can ever look at my wife the same, she admitted to loving getting texts and that she doesn't want to get rid of me. She just wants to know that I'm ready to move on. When I type that out, I admit that I'm not ready yet. If it's meant to be and she waits for me to heal and I'm ready, awesome. If not, so be it, she still played a critical role in this entire situation.


You heard a string of sweet words. The lips of this other woman drip honey. She came on to you and was all over you when she just met you and knew absolutely nothing about you other than the physical.
When you and your wife went into the “separation” mode, you agreed to remain faithful, but you haven’t. Kissing and fondling another woman is not faithful. Then you got a high by being in contact with her and it distracted you from resolving the marriage you are in.
You now have no room to complain about your wife, because you are justifying your own actions of unfaithfulness. The only way you are going to grow from this is to own your behavior and attitude. You let the sweet words of a stranger put you under a spell. Open your eyes. Make decisions based on what you know is best for you, not on what feels good at the moment from a woman who doesn’t really have your best interests at heart.


frustratedman said:


> So I never texted new girl today - I resisted. Then, BAM she texted me! So I'm obviously on her mind. That just makes me feel more confident going into tomorrow - the HUGE discussion between my wife and I. Believe me - there will be an update tomorrow. My whole future is up in the air, but I'm ready to forge ahead!


See. This is what I’m talking about. You hear from the woman and your whole outlook changes. This is called affair fog. It comes on quickly.
You keep seeking approval from women to boost your energy and confidence. That is not the sign of a strong man. It is the sign of someone seeking their power from how someone else views you.



frustratedman said:


> I just need to know. Will I ever? I hope so.


It is possible that you know the truth already. If she didn't go PA, then you do know. The issue is for you to know that the information you have is the truth. How could she prove that it never went PA? I think the only way is to polygraph. Why not just ask her for a polygraph, so you can get to the bottom of it and move forward one way or another? It would solve your confusion and need to know.


----------



## frustratedman

Hello Cynthia. Nice of you to post.

I'll try to answer all your questions.

The hair issue was resolved with SMP, Scalp Micro Pigmentation. Basically, you've got a close-shaved head and your scalp is tatooed with thousands of dots which resemble hair. On a scale from 1 to 10, I'm about an 8.5 with the results. Google SMP hair.

As far as my behavior with other women goes, here's what I'll say. I have taken responsibility for my actions the night of the concert. I have disclosed everything to my wife and I've been transparent. I admit that I broke my own agreement. I will, however, say that this wouldn't have happened if the circumstances were more "normal."

You may be right that my wife is telling me the truth. With the level of deception and stories changing, that's what makes it difficult. This is years of deception.

You say that my actions aren't that of a strong man. There's probably some truth to that. I kind of felt discarded by my wife and having someone else boost your ego when your down like I was is tough to resist. I do believe I am much stronger than I was 4 months ago. It's still a work in progress.

Saying that I have no room to complain about my wife as a result of mu action is a stretch, in my opinion. Again, this secret relationship went on for YEARS, even after she agreed it would stop. Do you know how that feels? If not, I'll tell you. You feel like your heart went through a meat grinder. My indiscretion was very minor in comparison.

Bottom line - both my wife and I are hurt and have been through a lot. But, we're both willing to give Retrouvaille a shot. So there's hope. As mentioned, I never want to look back with regrets.

I hope that answers your questions!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

Polygraph? Hmmmm. Probably not in the cards. They're not 100% accurate, she wouldn't agree to it, probably saying "if you don't believe me, what's the point?"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

The girl at work? We still talk but she's got a BF. We're friends.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cynthia

frustratedman said:


> The hair issue was resolved with SMP, Scalp Micro Pigmentation. Basically, you've got a close-shaved head and your scalp is tatooed with thousands of dots which resemble hair. On a scale from 1 to 10, I'm about an 8.5 with the results. Google SMP hair.


Interesting. I’m glad you are happy with it. That’s a unique and creative approach.


frustratedman said:


> As far as my behavior with other women goes, here's what I'll say. I have taken responsibility for my actions the night of the concert. I have disclosed everything to my wife and I've been transparent. I admit that I broke my own agreement. I will, however, say that this wouldn't have happened if the circumstances were more "normal."
> 
> You may be right that my wife is telling me the truth. With the level of deception and stories changing, that's what makes it difficult. This is years of deception.
> 
> You say that my actions aren't that of a strong man. There's probably some truth to that. I kind of felt discarded by my wife and having someone else boost your ego when your down like I was is tough to resist. I do believe I am much stronger than I was 4 months ago. It's still a work in progress.


I wasn’t referring to all of your actions, only those where you are looking to other women to build yourself up. You are not relying on your own power, but on the power that those women have to make you feel better about yourself.


frustratedman said:


> Saying that I have no room to complain about my wife as a result of mu action is a stretch, in my opinion. Again, this secret relationship went on for YEARS, even after she agreed it would stop. Do you know how that feels? If not, I'll tell you. You feel like your heart went through a meat grinder. My indiscretion was very minor in comparison.


You’re right it is a stretch to say that you have no room to complain. It is a serious breech that you became physically involved with another woman when she came on to you. Yes, your wife has created a lot of grief for you. I don’t mean to minimize that or the pain you have from it. The thing is that now both of you have that kind of pain. I hope you don’t do that again. It’s unhealthy for you and your family.


frustratedman said:


> Bottom line - both my wife and I are hurt and have been through a lot. But, we're both willing to give Retrouvaille a shot. So there's hope. As mentioned, I never want to look back with regrets.


I sincerely hope that works for you both. I will be interested to find out if it does and will continue to follow your updates.


frustratedman said:


> Polygraph? Hmmmm. Probably not in the cards. They're not 100% accurate, she wouldn't agree to it, probably saying "if you don't believe me, what's the point?"


The point is that her lies have created a terrible atmosphere in your home. Her unwillingness to deal with it have made your home an adversarial place, which is unhealthy for all of you. If she really didn’t go PA, it would ease your mind to get that information through a polygraph, but you would have to decide in advance that if it cleared her, you would accept it and move on. It could have a very positive impact on your relationship. I would sell it to her that way and encourage her to take it to clear things up once and for all.


----------



## frustratedman

The SMP thing sounds crazy, I know. The problem is that I made the big mistake of getting implants 20 years ago. It's a big regret but I needed to do SOMETHING about it. So, I did. The type of SMP I got lasts around 18 months, so it's temporary. I'm still sort of insecure with my hair but I have gotten a lot more confidence. I realize confidence comes from within, but the shame I have from the implant evidence is immense. 

People get "stuff" done all the time - botox, nose jobs, boob jobs, get their teeth fixed, etc. I figure I owe it to myself to feel good about how I look!

Perhaps I will ask her for a polygraph and set it up the question in that fashion. It's definitely not the time for that now.

I will say that my wife and I have had more small talk in the last couple weeks than the previous few months, so that seems to be a good sign.

I have no intentions of messing around at this point, since we're doing Retrouvaille. I am, however, a man who hasn't had any sex for a long time. It's like a primal urge takes over, in a way. I'm much more flirty and talkative with women now. It's almost like I'm subconciously preparing for the possibility of being single.

My encounter, although it was morally wrong, had benefits. My self esteem was really low and then, all the sudden this attractive woman is all over me and texting me at 8:30 the next morning. I feel like it almost happened for a reason. As bad as this sounds, if I had it to do over again, I don't know that I would have changed anything. It might have also awakened my wife, to a degree.

This whole thing has been a mess, but I truly feel like I've weathered the storm the best I could and at least there has been various forms of progress made. I am ready to live my life to the fullest, with or without my wife. I love her dearly and never wanted things to be like this, but such is life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cynthia

Frankly, I think you are doing fine. Not laying down the law or making your wife leave may seem weak, but I see why you have not done either of those things. This isn't a race or a competition. You are doing what you believe is best for you and your family.


----------



## frustratedman

Thanks for the support! I think there are people on this forum who have abandoned this thread out of frustration at my handling of the situation. I'm fine with that.

There are people who have been positive throughout. You know who you are.

It's been a crazy journey and the ride isn't over yet. Retrouvaille starts in late January. By then, I will have turned 40 and our 17th wedding anniversary will have passed.

At some point, someone said this thread reads like a journal. I guess it has been a journal, to a degree. Some day, when my marriage is resolved, one way or the other, I will read every page of it.

Anyhow, feel free to post away, provide advice or criticize - that goes out to everyone - not just Cynthia.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

Cynthia - you're absolutely right about this not being a race, by the way. I'm in no rush to be away from my kids. Yeah - it's a bit of a dysfunctional household, but at least our kids still have both of us here, we've all got a roof over our head, the kids are doing well and our lifestyles haven't taken a hit. We can still afford luxuries like smart phones, cable, going out to eat, etc. 

These problems have taken years to bring us to this point. They will not be resolved in days. If we're "separated" for half a year and then reconcile to have the best marriage we've ever had, that would be awesome. Then, when I'm 90, we'll look back and remember that "rough patch," we had.

Or... if things don't work out, I'll have no regrets and know that we made mistakes in our marriage but I gave 100% effort to resolve whatever I could!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## naiveonedave

FM - a polygraph is useful to gain parking lot confessions. If you feel like you don't know enough to make an informed decision, it would be one way to possibly get closer to totally knowing what your W did or didn't do. Accuracy is better than you think. 

If you can have piece of mind knowing you don't know everything your W did, then it would make sense to not polygraph. I would have to, given what you know and don't about the situation.


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## Tron

naiveonedave said:


> FM - a polygraph is useful to gain parking lot confessions. If you feel like you don't know enough to make an informed decision, it would be one way to possibly get closer to totally knowing what your W did or didn't do. Accuracy is better than you think.


She lied to you for years, so why should you trust her when she says nothing happened. Her behavior would indicate otherwise. 

Offer to take one yourself, so it is all fair. If she agrees, check her search logs and see if there is anything interesting that pops up. Anyone with nothing to hide shouldn't have a real issue with it. I think the possibility of a "parking lot confession" would be high in this case. 



naiveonedave said:


> If you can have piece of mind knowing you don't know everything your W did, then it would make sense to not polygraph. I would have to, given what you know and don't about the situation.


I don't know how you can have that piece of mind at this point.


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## frustratedman

I'm relying on her to be honest after going through all the required work, renewing our vows, etc. I think that the truth would come out, even after what's transpired.

Hmmm... definitely food for thought.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## eric1

Frustratedman,

This site is filled to the brim with folks who have been in your situation. My simple
Observation is that the ones who succeed are the ones who rebuild trust through action, not blind hope as you are relying on.

It's ultimately a simple step. If she is lying to you she'll have a problem with it, if she isn't then she probably still will not be psyched but will approach it more rationally.

There is no harm in playing a little defense during whatever it is you're going through. If anything is going on its impact can be nuclear.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## honcho

frustratedman said:


> I'm relying on her to be honest after going through all the required work, renewing our vows, etc. I think that the truth would come out, even after what's transpired.
> 
> Hmmm... definitely food for thought.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But basically all the work, the renewing vows etc is all predicated on her keeping the secret at this point. 

Don't take it the wrong way but do you really want to know? You have gone way beyond what most do in order to save the marriage. She knows you will essentially never give up on the marriage....as long as she never admits if anything happened. Unless she is firmly done and wants out she has zero incentive to admit.


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## Chuck71

After my botched brain surgery as a teen, I had scars all over my head. Yes they bothered me.

I would flip my hair over to hide them. When I was around 30, I stopped caring if they were visible 

or not. They became "battle scars" and yes, women loved them.

They would ask what happened, etc. They were eating out of my hand at the end.... but I was M at the time.

Use this to your advantage


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## Be smart

You said "I have no intentions of doing poly now"

Why is that ? Do you really want to continue to live like this ?
Find some closure and you will be a lot happier person.

Your marriage problems started 4 years ago and your wife still works with this OM,five days a week.

She even defended him in some situations. I asked you way back did she ever apologize to you and you said no. 

You know for a good marriage you have to have two people fighting for it. If her mind is still on OM then you are going to waste another year my friend.


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## frustratedman

Well... It's been a while. The big weekend is finally here. Just checked into the hotel for Retrouvaille. I'll provide an update Sunday night for anyone who's interested. I'm excited, nervous, curious and just sort of looking forward to closure in the next 1.5 months (because there are 6 follow up shorter meetings after this weekend).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thound

​
Wishing you nothing but the best. Best wishes.


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## Archangel2

Thound said:


> ​
> Wishing you nothing but the best. Best wishes.


I second that.

Remember, Retrouvaille will only be successful if both you and your wife are "all in". Anything less by either of you (as Gridcom found out about his wife) will doom you to failure.


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## frustratedman

So far, it looks like a win no matter what the outcome is. It seems like it will help overall with either my marriage or future relationships.

My wife's writings/dialogues have mentioned somewhat positive things about our future but obviously, even after this, it's going to take time. I hope the damage that has been done so far isn't a situation where "we can't un-ring that bell."

Anyhow, so far, I have no regrets. It seems like it's going to be time well spent.

😄
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

frustratedman said:


> So far, it looks like a win no matter what the outcome is. It seems like it will help overall with either my marriage or future relationships.
> 
> My wife's writings/dialogues have mentioned somewhat positive things about our future but obviously, even after this, it's going to take time. I hope the damage that has been done so far isn't a situation where "we can't un-ring that bell."
> 
> Anyhow, so far, I have no regrets. It seems like it's going to be time well spent.
> 
> 😄
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good for you and your wife.


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## frustratedman

The Retrouvaille weekend is over. The program itself went pretty well minus a couple minor incidents.

Unfortunately, she unknowingly ate something with gluten and this caused sickness and a migraine. So we missed a portion this morning but we're going to make it up.

I want to give the entite program, including the 6 follow ups, a fair shot and she does as well. I barely talked to her tonight because she's still not feeling well.

It went almost exactly as I was imagining it and I have no regrets whatsoever.

I still don't know what the future holds, but this will either bring us together or we will have closure.

As far as nitty gritty goes, one thing that bothered me, and she's said this before, is the following. She wrote, "I didn't want to mention my continued friendship with (a hole) because I didn't think you could handle it." That will need to be addressed. When this topic comes up again, which it will, I will be saying something like "it's not that I can't handle it, it's that I won't tolerate it."

She also wrote something about my alleged inability to make decisions. In the past half year, I have made all decisions regarding myself and the kids (with some exceptions for "bigger" issues) solely, on my own. 

In addition, I have not "relied on her for happiness," whatsoever, in this time.

I am freeley standing, on my own. She has a choice to make. So do I. We are both different people than we were 6 months ago.

So... There it is, for anyone who cares. Thanks for your support, TAM community!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marc878

At least you'll be out of limbo and able to forge your own life it sounds like


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## Chuck71

Hoping for whatever it is you want FM..... stay strong!


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## turnera

frustratedman said:


> She wrote, "I didn't want to mention my continued friendship with (a hole) because I didn't think you could handle it." That will need to be addressed. When this topic comes up again, which it will, I will be saying something like "it's not that I can't handle it, it's that I won't tolerate it."
> 
> She also wrote something about my alleged inability to make decisions. In the past half year, I have made all decisions regarding myself and the kids (with some exceptions for "bigger" issues) solely, on my own.


It's human nature to 'assign' intention and beliefs to other people; i.e. try to read their mind. That's why communication is the key to a relationship. We should at all times be so safe for our partner to tell us whatever they are thinking that they do it all.the.time. Thus, no 'rewriting' the marriage, as she has done above. She has this 'vision' in her head about what you do and don't do...because you aren't really communicating, sharing all your thoughts. That's the most important thing to work on; it's what my IC urged me to do, regardless of my H's propensity to turn things around on me (so he wouldn't have to look at his own actions). Whatever you're feeling and sharing here, share with her.


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## Cynthia

turnera said:


> She has this 'vision' in her head about what you do and don't do...because you aren't really communicating, sharing all your thoughts.


She has an inaccurate vision in her head, because she is justifying her behavior. It has nothing to do with frustratedman's so called inability to communicate effectively. This is blame shifting. She is not facing reality, because she doesn't want to. It's more convenient and easier to cope when she makes things up to soothe herself.


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## frustratedman

At this point in Retrouvaille, we've bern given the tools to communicate our feelings. However, we have not been given the tools to problem solve. Problem solving will be addressed in the post weekend meetings.

I had a tough time biting my tongue, not defending myself or attacking her (metaphorically speaking, of course).

I must continue to be patient, stay positive and confident.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

CynthiaDe said:


> She has an inaccurate vision in her head, because she is justifying her behavior. It has nothing to do with frustratedman's so called inability to communicate effectively. This is blame shifting. She is not facing reality, because she doesn't want to. It's more convenient and easier to cope when she makes things up to soothe herself.


I absolutely agree with this. She's projecting so much that I find it shocking to hear her say "I was afraid you couldn't handle us being friends." It's like... "are you really saying this right now?"

Projecting, blame shifting, whatever you want to call it. She appears to have convinced herself that her actions are acceptable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SadSamIAm

I don't know the format in what you were doing, but I don' think 'biting my tongue' is the answer.

If I read this correctly, she is 'continuing a friendship with someone' but isn't telling you because you can't handle it.

But the reality is that this is a deal breaker. If she continues the friendship, then the marriage is over.

I don't see the point of continuing on at all until this has been resolved.


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## manfromlamancha

The most dangerous thing that could happen here is she develops a story that she actually starts to believe - you need to cut this short as you are planning to do.


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## turnera

CynthiaDe said:


> She has an inaccurate vision in her head, because she is justifying her behavior. It has nothing to do with frustratedman's so called inability to communicate effectively. This is blame shifting. She is not facing reality, because she doesn't want to. It's more convenient and easier to cope when she makes things up to soothe herself.


I'm not blaming him, although I won't go so far as to say he's a perfect communicator. He is human. I'm explaining what she's using to justify her 'view.' And saying that if he wants this part of things to improve, it won't hurt him to open his eyes to whether they are both getting the information they need from each other, in a way that works. I'm sure he's learning about this in the R classes.


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## Be smart

If your wife continue this friendship or working with this man,then you are in the same spot my friend.


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## frustratedman

Be smart said:


> If your wife continue this friendship or working with this man,then you are in the same spot my friend.


I agree.

I'm a bit torn... She didn't elaborate on it much. Part of me just wants to say "if you're still carrying on your 'friendship' that is clearly inappropriate, what's even the point?"

But, on the the other hand, I feel I must wait for the correct time to address this issue. Maybe with our daily dialogues, her heart will soften a bit. As we go through this program, perhaps the problem solving skills will address how to handle this sort of situation.

Bottom line is that I want to complete Retrouvaille before making any demands. I will give this a fair shot. But, in the end, if she values her "friendship," more than our marriage, that speaks volumes and answers the question at hand.

In her defense, since I deployed the gps, she's never snuck around anywhere. She has been promoted to a Supervisor at her job and doubt she would risk everything for that pile of $#!t. Also, she still stands firm with the statement that nothing has ever happened physically between them.

Time is on my side. I've been growing and bettering myself daily. As you all know, I'm not in a rush. Just the fact that she agreed to do this shows that she still cares. She said a few positive and promising things during Retrouvaille as well.

Like it or not, that's where I'm at. Again, I stress that if, when the time is right and we address this issue, if she says they're still friends and she wants to keep it like that, I value myself too much to tolerate that kind of behavior.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

The timing is actually perfect. Our lease ends in July. If things work out and we're both fully satisfied and can regrow a beautiful, trusting, loving marriage, that would be stellar. If it doesn't pan out, we both have time to figure out all the other details before we carry on, going our separate ways.

It would be a major financial "hit" to our family, as running two households is much more expensive. Our kids will lose some luxuries, so will we. But, if that's the way it must go, so be it. I will never look back with regret and will feel like I've been an honorable man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cynthia

You are an honorable and patient man.


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## frustratedman

CynthiaDe said:


> You are an honorable and patient man.


Thank you.

It's strange because all my close friends, who I've shared this situation with, have said things like "You're a stand up dude. Most guys would havd bailed long ago."

I'm either an honorable man or a complete idiot, lol.

I will say that after the Retrouvaille weekend and working 10 hours today, I'm completely drained. I know she is also. This is definitely hard work...

On another random note, we didn't hug the entire weekend. That's kind of sad. She wasn't as cold as normal though.

We JUST finished dialoguing a few minutes ago. Then she went to "her room," (aka the guest bedroom).

As I said before, even if this doesn't work, I will learn to express my feelings better and will learn how to comminicate in intimate relationships in a positive way.

Not sure why I'm rambling so much... Must be getting delerious and need to crash hard!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Doesn't sound as if she is the least attracted to you


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## frustratedman

LongWalk said:


> Doesn't sound as if she is the least attracted to you


Although it's a tough pill to swallow, that appears to be true. The more I think about it, the more it seems like it's over.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

She's built up too many resentments that she can't let go of. I don't know if I'll ever be able to trust her. We've been through too much and it seems like there is no un-ringing that bell...

Reading that post was eye opening but it is quite accurate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

Fm, are the people at Retrouville aware of her "friendship" and your issue with it?


----------



## frustratedman

bfree said:


> Fm, are the people at Retrouville aware of her "friendship" and your issue with it?


You don't share your personal story at Retrouvaille, so no - they do not.

However, one of the 3 presenting couples did deal with an affair.

If you're unfamiliar with the format and want to check it out, Google Retrouvaille.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

frustratedman said:


> You don't share your personal story at Retrouvaille, so no - they do not.
> 
> However, one of the 3 presenting couples did deal with an affair.
> 
> If you're unfamiliar with the format and want to check it out, Google Retrouvaille.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I only ask because in another thread it was mentioned that Retrouville wouldn't accept the couple if one of the parties was actively in an affair. Since it seems as if there is an uncertainty about your wife and this other man I was wondering if it had a bearing on your counseling.


----------



## Be smart

You said "she will not risk her job for this pi$$ of $$it". You are wrong.

Let me tell you my friend,people in Affair risk more then their job. They risk they family in the first place.

Also you said "you are not going to bring her "friendship" with this man. This is your main problem and you cant work on your marriage if there is a third person. This is why you are here.


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## Archangel2

frustratedman said:


> ...As far as nitty gritty goes, one thing that bothered me, and she's said this before, is the following. She wrote, "I didn't want to mention my continued friendship with (a hole) because I didn't think you could handle it." That will need to be addressed. When this topic comes up again, which it will, I will be saying something like "it's not that I can't handle it, it's that I won't tolerate it."...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Frustrated - Correct me if I'm wrong. Did she not kiss this guy?


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## frustratedman

Archangel2 said:


> Frustrated - Correct me if I'm wrong. Did she not kiss this guy?


She has NEVER admitted to one physical act with him. The kissing thing is from an email I found in July of 2015. The email went as follows:

Her: "I knew it all along."

Him: "You knew what?"

Her: "You just told me the real reason we're friends."

Him: "I had a hard time not wanting ir trying to kiss you today."

Her: "It was ve"

That's where it ended and it was a draft. The ONE she forgot to delete...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

Well, this is the time of day that we designated to "dialoguing," which is a Retrouvaille thing. My son and I got home from the gym 15 minutes prior to when we're supposed to do this. I believe she's sleeping. So, we made it through one day of dialoguing.... Nice!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Archangel2

Have you ever shown this to her? IIRC, did she not say in counseling that she betrayed your trust?


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## frustratedman

Archangel2 said:


> Have you ever shown this to her? IIRC, did she not say in counseling that she betrayed your trust?


Yes - she has absolutely admitted to betraying me and my trust.

Have I shown her the email? No but she knew exactly what I was referring to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Archangel2

Frustrated - If she ever brings up in dialogue that you cannot accept her friendship with OM, you need to cite chapter and verse above to say it is not a friendship but an inappropriate relationship. It is a marriage killer.


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## frustratedman

So, we didn't do our 2nd day of dialoguing. I texted my wife who was in the guest bedroom, presumably sleeping, "I assume you don't want to dialogue tonight?" No response. Today? No email at work, no response to the text. I was expecting a quick "hey sorry I fell asleep last night, we can pick it up tonight," or something...

This tells me that I'm about 90% sure it's over. I've done my absolute best. Trying to stay positive.

I think tonight I'm just going to ask her some very direct questions and be brutally honest with her.

Although we've got 25 years of memories, it's going to massively impact all of our lives, she's beautiful and I still love her, I think I'm done. Out of self respect, I don't think I can carry on like this.

If she doesn't want to live under the same roof, she can move out. I'm certainly not going to. I will adhere to our lease until it expires.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

frustratedman said:


> I think tonight I'm just going to ask her some very direct questions and be brutally honest with her.


About time.


----------



## Cynthia

It's hard to get to the point you are at, but you can move on with good conscience. Your wife is not doing her due diligence and is not investing into the marriage. She has emotionally moved on. I'm sorry. I know it's awful when you love her and have put so much into her, but it is okay to see things for what they are and to move forward without her.


----------



## G.J.

You must bite the bullet at some point

You need answers....*FULL STOP*


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

frustratedman said:


> This tells me that I'm about 90% sure it's over.


I think she's been at 100% for a while now, as many of the previous posts here from fellow TAMers have saying for a while now.

It least you're almost out of limbo. I hope...


----------



## frustratedman

Well, it's officially over. We talked yesterday then came home to tell our kids that we're divorcing.

The 16 year old is furious at us, lashing out and saying we didn't work on anything in the last 6 months.

The 12 year old cried his little heart out, saying that he just wishes things would be like they were before.

It was, overall, a devistating day. But, I'm trying to keep my chin up and stay positive. It's really hard. Having trouble getting out of bed, etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

I'm most worried about finances and living arrangements when our lease expires. Luckily, I've got 6 months to save up...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

eBay is your friend...


----------



## bandit.45

Cheer up man. The first year will be hard, but two years from now you will be asking yourself why you stuck around so long.


----------



## frustratedman

bandit.45 said:


> Cheer up man. The first year will be hard, but two years from now you will be asking yourself why you stuck around so long.


I hope you're right! It's going to be tough, but I'm also excited to a degree.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## G.J.

If you can talk about it how did the conversation go down

Just take care


----------



## Be smart

I am not trying to be rude my friend,but your oldest is right in some case. You DID try and work this out,but your wife did not. 

Remember this ****.t. is going on for 4 years.

Now you can look after yourself. 

Just curious,what happend to that girl you meet ? Time for you to move on and be happy once again.

Stay strong.


----------



## frustratedman

Well, here's the story. It's kind of long...

Last weekend was Retrouvaille weekend. Monday, we dialogued successfully. Tuesday, she didn't come out of the guest room at what I thought was our scheduled time of 9:00. I texted her at 9:15 "I assume you don't want to dialogue tonight?" I think she fell asleep. 

Wednesday, she didn't have the respect to send me a quick response like "Sorry I fell asleep we can make it up tonight." So I stewed about that all Wednesday and I was angry.

Wednesday night, I ask her if she wants to dialogue and she says sure. I expressed anger about her not replying to the text.

So we dialogue and the question was something like "What did you take away from the weekend and how do you feel about your answer?" I wrote that I was hopeful because she had said a couple positive things but I felt distance because we didn't make as much progress as I had hoped.

Thursday night I'm grocery shopping and she texted me that she feels smothered and overwhelmed by Retrouvaille and she's ill. She's staying at her mom's.

Friday she emails me and says she wants to talk. In the back of my head, I know it's over.

Saturday, we go to have coffee and what I (correctly) presumed was the "end all" talk.

She cries and says she thinks Retrouvaille is a bunch of BS. She brings up resentments from years ago, which we have already been through numerous times. She again tells me that her friendship was inappropriate but nothing physical ever happened and that I make up stories in my head and will never believe her.

I told her that no matter what I do, she will always view me as being "needy" and she basically agreed with that. However, for the last 6 months, I have relied on her for next to nothing and I told her that.

She basically said no matter what she wants to be done.

We talked about the impending divorce. She has stated several times that she wants absolutely nothing from me. She wants me to be successful and she wants us to be good co-parents. She cried a lot about the kids.

She's moving her stuff out this week and will live at her mom's but will still come here for the kids when she gets home from work (she gets home over 2 hours earlier than I do).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

Be smart said:


> I am not trying to be rude my friend,but your oldest is right in some case. You DID try and work this out,but your wife did not.
> 
> Remember this ****.t. is going on for 4 years.
> 
> Now you can look after yourself.
> 
> Just curious,what happend to that girl you meet ? Time for you to move on and be happy once again.
> 
> Stay strong.


That's not rude in the least. That's the biggest challenge I have right now... I'd LOVE to tell the kids the truth and that she has had an inappropriate relationship with a co-worker and that I tried my heart out to work on resolving our issues, but your mom no longer loves me.

The oldest has been locked in his room all weekend and says he hates us, that he no longer has parents and that he's excited to get out and go to college. He is very smart. He's irrate about the financial implications of this because he knows that we're not rich and this will take a huge toll on our finances.

I feel like a failure to a degree. I'm trying not to but it's tough. I can't keep my wife and my family together. We're two grown adults and we can't resolve our issues. Our kids are going to suffer tremendously because of this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

I'm rambling now but my wife is at the stage that I make her sick and she is willing to hurt our kids just to survive. That's when you truly know it's over.

Yes - I've made mistakes and have regrets. But I will never take responsibility for her affair.

When I talked to my parents, my mom told me that I must be relieved to some degree and she's right. No more limbo. She also said that when she thought of us possibly reconciling that I would always have trust issues and doubts. Again, it's a good point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

She brought up her grandpa dying as well. He had given us a few decently large lump sums of money - once when we were first married and also a couple years before he died. She said that she can't trust me to take care of her financially. I told her that I hate to say it but if we were to count dollar for dollar what I brought in versus what she brought in plus what her grandpa gave us, I brought in more money. That didn't go well but I believe it's true.

We weren't good with finances. She had a shopping habbit. I tried to explain that if we would have done better with finances we would have been fine but we didn't. We (mainly she) lived beyond our means.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

Also, if I had a rich grandpa, which I don't, and the tables were turned, I would have done the same damn thing!

Again sorry for rambling.

The bottom line is that our relationship has run its course. I feel horrible about it. I wish it wouldn't have turned out like this.

She is a fantastic person and she's beautiful. It's going to hurt knowing that she's with someone else (maybe the a hole). She's also flawed and has many issues.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

As for other women or the girl I met, I'm not quite ready yet. Yes I'd love the physical aspect of it but my head's just not in the right place at the moment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cynthia

frustratedman said:


> As for other women or the girl I met, I'm not quite ready yet. Yes I'd love the physical aspect of it but my head's just not in the right place at the moment.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And it won't be for quite a while. It takes time to work through the issues caused by a broken relationship and be ready to move on in a healthy way. Don't rush it. Take time to heal and build a new foundation.


----------



## Archangel2

frustratedman said:


> ...She cries and says she thinks Retrouvaille is a bunch of BS.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Frustrated - I am so very sorry that things turned out the way they did. I guess she showed her true colors. She never gave you a chance.
Look at today as being the first day of the rest of your life. Yes, you will initially have some tough sledding, but the greater prize will be to find that someone that truly deserves you. Over the time of this thread we have watched you grow and mature. You have also learned some new skills from Retrouvaille that will be of benefit to you. Keep the faith, my friend. I hope we will hear about your revival in the not too distant future.


----------



## G.J.

Your not rambling, no way

The first few days will be extremely tough

It will get better


----------



## happyman64

FM

Her resentments are her excuses that she requires in order to end the marriage.

I want you to picture one thing in your mind.

"Your wife is not beautiful, she is selfish. So selfish that she looks ugly."

Think of her that way.

Stop worrying about her being with other guys. Because my friend she already has. Whether it was physical or just emotional she has already been with the OG.

Her excuses about the finances and not trusting you with money is just another excuse (resentment) to be able to walk away from the marriage.

Your standard response should be "I'm sorry you feel that way".

Or

"When you run out money after the divorce do not call me, just remember how the bad finances were always my fault, not yours."

Focus on you, your kids and the divorce. Get it done, get the kids some professional counseling and move forward so you can be happy again.

I can assure your next wife will be just as " beautiful" without the issues.

HM


----------



## frustratedman

Thanks TAM, for the kind and uplifting posts!

I just hope I can take care of everything, financially. This whole situation is inspiring me to try to make more money in my career. I think everything will work out in the end.

I'm really going to try to focus on writing music as well.

In five years, my youngest will be a senior. That's not too far away.

I'm pretty sure she feels bad about not being with the kids all the time. In a way, she's abandonning them. 

It's weird being in the house with just the boys and I. But, the weirdness will pass. I truly feel horrible for them and I'm trying to give them extra TLC.

The older son asked me "so she's divorcing you not the other way around, eh?" I told him that the bottom line is that we can't resolve our issues. It's really hard to bite my tongue and not bash her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

So... I take the bus to work this morning. My STBX texts me that my youngest was up all night crying and he's staying home from school. I don't want him to feel alone so I'm taking the day off. Luckily I got to take a bus home rather than taxi.

Anyhow, this is obviously devastating for my kids. I want them to feel some stability. Their worlds have come crashing down on them. It's so sad. I feel horrible about it. Their whole lives are going to be impacted by this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

frustratedman said:


> So... I take the bus to work this morning. My STBX texts me that my youngest was up all night crying and he's staying home from school. I don't want him to feel alone so I'm taking the day off. Luckily I got to take a bus home rather than taxi.
> 
> Anyhow, this is obviously devastating for my kids. I want them to feel some stability. Their worlds have come crashing down on them. It's so sad. I feel horrible about it. Their whole lives are going to be impacted by this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It will get better in time.

Keep saying that to yourself and the kids.....

Then make it happen.


----------



## GusPolinski

frustratedman said:


> Also, if I had a rich grandpa, which I don't, and the tables were turned, I would have done the same damn thing!
> 
> Again sorry for rambling.
> 
> The bottom line is that our relationship has run its course. I feel horrible about it. I wish it wouldn't have turned out like this.
> 
> She is a fantastic person and she's *beautiful*. It's going to hurt knowing that she's with someone else (maybe the a hole). She's also flawed and has many issues.











_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

Fair enough, Gus lol.

I wish I could take the pain away for my kids. The youngest is crying right now. Really taking it hard.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

I remember crying. I was 12. My brother was 15; my dad drove to the gas station he was working at, my brother walked over to his car, dad said "your mom and I are getting a divorce; I'm moving out" and drove away. My brother locked himself in the gas station's bathroom for 3 hours and cried, all alone. The ********* wasn't even his real father, and treated my brother like crap, and he still cried.

Your kids are much better off, I promise you. They have you.


----------



## Openminded

Most men think their wives are beautiful -- and don't want to lose that -- but the truth is that the world has no shortage of beautiful women. Heal and then find the woman who's right for you. She's out there. 

Your sons will rebound in time. It's not a quick process -- and obviously they'll need your help to get through it -- but they will.


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## Divinely Favored

You can tell your eldest without bashing her. No way in hell should you take part of the blame for her affair and destruction of the marriage. I would tell him, I love your mother very much but she had a boyfriend and the repercussions were to much for her to deal with.


If your willing to bend the truth and hide things from them, they will quickly learn that they can not trust you either.


----------



## frustratedman

Divinely Favored said:


> You can tell your eldest without bashing her. No way in hell should you take part of the blame for her affair and destruction of the marriage. I would tell him, I love your mother very much but she had a boyfriend and the repercussions were to much for her to deal with.


Yeah I've thought a lot about doing just that.

Of course, my wife still minmizes the whole affair. If she does end up with this dirt ball, who's so interesting and exciting, she damn well better not expose my kids to him. I don't know how to tell her this. Right now, although I'm very angry, disappointed and let down by her, she's being very amicable.

She's stated, multiple times, that she wants absolutely nothing from me. No alimony, child support, half time custody, etc.

I know everyone is thinking that I'm being gullable, etc., but I know this woman and I truly believe she has zero intent on hurting me.

I'm thinking this divorce is going to be very simple. We have nothing to fight for, really.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Your kids are absolutely old enough to know the truth. And they need ONE parent they can trust to tell them the truth. Right now they don't know what to think about EITHER of you. "Mom decided to have a boyfriend and we can't have boyfriends or girlfriends and still be married. So we are going to separate and most likely divorce. But it has nothing to do with YOU, and both of us will never stop loving you and wanting you in our lives forever."

That's all you gotta say.


----------



## Be smart

First of all dont blame yourself my friend. Your wife is to blame. 

Second thing - you said she wants nothing from you. Good for you,now you have to act fast before she changes her mind.
Talk with lawyer and draw your Divorce papers. Do it as soon as you can. I belive you want to have a happy future.

Most imortant thing - your daughter is 16 yeras old. She is old enough to know the truth,so tell her. Dont keep this from her,she will hate you,because she belives that both of you destroyed her family.
Trust me on this one my friend.

Stay strong and take step by step. Protect yourself and your kids from any damage.


----------



## JohnA

You have been chasing shadows your entire marriage. In the end your shadow hunting destroyed the marriage. I've read a great deal of your posts and have yet to see a real concrete piece of evidence. Could you or someone supply me with post numbers please.

You have been though hell, that is true. Wether it is self inflected is the question. Regardless your wife emotionally is detached from you more so then you to her. Work on detaching from her. Follow the 180. This thread might help 

Critical Readings For Separation and Divorce - LoveShack.org Community Forums


----------



## frustratedman

JohnA said:


> You have been chasing shadows your entire marriage. In the end your shadow hunting destroyed the marriage. I've read a great deal of your posts and have yet to see a real concrete piece of evidence. Could you or someone supply me with post numbers please.
> 
> You have been though hell, that is true. Wether it is self inflected is the question. Regardless your wife emotionally is detached from you more so then you to her. Work on detaching from her. Follow the 180. This thread might help
> 
> Critical Readings For Separation and Divorce - LoveShack.org Community Forums


You are correct. I have no concrete proof. However, the destruction of our marriage is not on me. I have contributed to our problems, that, I admit.

I'm pretty damn sure that if anything happened, she'll take it to her grave. She blatantly went against what we agreed to in counseling. She has come out and told me that she understands why I shouldn't trust her and admits that she totally disrespected me.

Whether it was physical or not, she CLEARLY betrayed me multiple times. Also, I highly doubt that this POS would be chasing her since 2008 without getting any "play."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JohnA

Then move on. Read the link I gave you. Also take time to absorb the lessons of your marriage both good and bad. In addition to the link I gave you research transpancey. Also read his needs, her needs and 5 languages of love.

Don't be like a guy like my brother served with. On the eve of his fourth marriage when advised to just live with her respond: "marriage is the greatest institution every invented and I going to keep doing it unti
I get it right!". 

If such story is not true, then such a story should be true".


----------



## frustratedman

JohnA said:


> Then move on. Read the link I gave you. Also take time to absorb the lessons of your marriage both good and bad. In addition to the link I gave you research transpancey. Also read his needs, her needs and 5 languages of love.
> 
> Don't be like a guy like my brother served with. On the eve of his fourth marriage when advised to just live with her respond: "marriage is the greatest institution every invented and I going to keep doing it unti
> I get it right!".
> 
> If such story is not true, then such a story should be true".


I've done the detatching/180 thing for the most part (or gave it hell trying).

We both read 5 Languages after the 2011 incident/counselling.

I've also learned a TON about myself, her and relationships.

In summary, I feel like I've truly given it my all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JohnA

Good, but what about your next relationship ? What ever it was your last relationship was, how will it effect your next? It will don't kid yourself. It will either bog it down and destroy it, or serve as a source of empathy and strength. 

What language are you and your ex ?


----------



## frustratedman

JohnA said:


> Good, but what about your next relationship ? What ever it was your last relationship was, how will it effect your next? It will don't kid yourself. It will either bog it down and destroy it, or serve as a source of empathy and strength.
> 
> What language are you and your ex ?


I realize my last relationship will most definitely affect everything going forward. My languages are physical touch and words of affirmation. Hers are acts of service and words of affirmation.

It already has and will forever affect my relationship with my kids as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

But your points are well taken. I realize this has changed me. I must grow and develop from mistakes I've made. I must ultimately trust myself so that no matter what happens, I'll survive. Also, I must know that I will need to trust again, even though that trust has been severely shattered.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

Yeah but it sounds like you have moved quite a ways down the road towards acceptance. You are not a dazed BS in the fog, puking and losing sleep. You are hovering at 30,000 feet and that is where you need to stay. 

My only worry is that now the brakes are off. You may well want to brace yourself for when she starts dating other guys with a vengeance.


----------



## Archangel2

Peace and strength, my friend. We are all pulling for you.


----------



## honcho

frustratedman said:


> I've done the detatching/180 thing for the most part (or gave it hell trying).
> 
> We both read 5 Languages after the 2011 incident/counselling.
> 
> I've also learned a TON about myself, her and relationships.
> 
> In summary, I feel like I've truly given it my all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am sorry the overall outcome was not what you hoped for. You did go above and beyond trying to keep your marriage intact. I think once you gain some distance from this you might view some of your attempt was beating the proverbial dead horse. She just didn't have an interest in saving this.

She will continue to convince herself this was the best move so don't be surprised if any conversations you have with her in the immediate future that she will spin everything towards your "at fault".


----------



## frustratedman

bandit.45 said:


> Yeah but it sounds like you have moved quite a ways down the road towards acceptance. You are not a dazed BS in the fog, puking and losing sleep. You are hovering at 30,000 feet and that is where you need to stay.
> 
> My only worry is that now the brakes are off. You may well want to brace yourself for when she starts dating other guys with a vengeance.


I've already come to terms with this. I guarantee she won't tell me anyhow. Likewise, I won't be telling her if I date one of the many possible options...

Speaking of which, I didn't mention this on TAM, but I had yet ANOTHER crazy thing happen about 3 weeks ago. I had a buddy's buddy's ex girlfriend FB messaging me. It was another huge ego booster. She was saying she only wanted physical if that was all I wanted. It was pretty much insane, as I've never had a woman be that... ummm... forward. I didn't go for her bait, for multiple reasons. Usually, if it sounds too good to be true, it is. 

So, I've got 2 realistic options of women who have expressed strong interest (excluding the one I just mentioned). One of them lives 4 hours away though.

As I've mentioned, I know I have no control over her and what she does. I've heard several of my friends say things like "I assure you she will regret this one day."

Right now I'm focused on the kids and myself. Period. I just want to be in my own place with my own stuff and my kids half the time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

Archangel2 said:


> Peace and strength, my friend. We are all pulling for you.


Thanks, Archangel - you have provided a great perspective throughout. That's not to say I don't appreciate EVERYONE's advice and insight!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

honcho said:


> I am sorry the overall outcome was not what you hoped for. You did go above and beyond trying to keep your marriage intact. I think once you gain some distance from this you might view some of your attempt was beating the proverbial dead horse. She just didn't have an interest in saving this.
> 
> She will continue to convince herself this was the best move so don't be surprised if any conversations you have with her in the immediate future that she will spin everything towards your "at fault".


I couldn't agree more. She was done with this marriage a year ago. In fact, even earlier than that. But when her grandpa died, that was a definitive moment.

Yes - I did make several mistakes along the way. I didn't handle the situation correctly in many instances. It was almost like I knew it though and just didn't have the confidence to do what needed to be done. Day by day, I'm checking myself further and further from the marriage.

I'm also not giving the kids false hope. We've told them it's done, we're sorry, it's not going to be easy, we know it hurts, but we're going to get through this, time will heal, etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

The older son (two boys, 16 & 12) is acting up severely. Extreme agression. We had an incident today because he freaked out on me for him not having his house key. It turned into a nightmare and it's still unresolved. He insists that he no longer loves us, nothing lasts forever, etc. He is being very disrespectful. I know part if this is him lashing out, which he's been doing since the separation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

This is totally random but I'm gonna get it off my chest.

Way back in 2009, my brother and I took my SUV to a music festival. This was 2 years prior to me discovering the EA.

I had the tailgate open and there were several people sitting back there. I found an unopened condom - it was in this little console type storage space in the very back. Magnum extra large.

It could have been one of the couples who were sitting back there at one time (we were grilling, etc.). My memory of it is very faint. The POS is 6'8", so you catch my drift? Big dude, big ummm... Frankly, that killed my ego and I let it.

Bottom line - I can now let all those mental images go. My wife still stands by her 100% never touched him statement. I never brought this up and never will. But, it's one more of the many "strange coincidences," that were never a full smoking gun. I just want to move forward.

Random memory - done.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

Sorry everyone. I'm babbling on and on. I feel the need to tell a bunch of random people, that I don't know, every detail...

Onward and upward, as they say.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

frustratedman said:


> The older son (two boys, 16 & 12) is acting up severely. Extreme agression. We had an incident today because he freaked out on me for him not having his house key. It turned into a nightmare and it's still unresolved. He insists that he no longer loves us, nothing lasts forever, etc. He is being very disrespectful. I know part if this is him lashing out, which he's been doing since the separation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I will urge you to read up everything you can find about Authoritative Parenting. (not Authoritarian Parenting)

You really need to learn it and practice it with your sons. It will help a lot.


----------



## Cynthia

frustratedman said:


> Sorry everyone. I'm babbling on and on. I feel the need to tell a bunch of random people, that I don't know, every detail...
> 
> Onward and upward, as they say.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's okay if you need to vent.


----------



## frustratedman

turnera said:


> I will urge you to read up everything you can find about Authoritative Parenting. (not Authoritarian Parenting)
> 
> You really need to learn it and practice it with your sons. It will help a lot.


Looked it up. That's exactly how I parent! But, I guess I didn't know the name of it. That's one thing I will say is that I believe that our parenting has been very successful.

People often tell me our boys are polite, friendly, courteous, generous and overall, just great kids!

The youngest is like the happiest kid you'll meet. Always smiling... That's why today SUCKED! Poor dude cried all night and had to miss school today, which means I had to take the day off work.

The older one holds on to things FOREVER. He still resents us for moving 7 years ago. He is very mature for his age. Both of their worlds are crashing down and their sense of stability is faltered.

I just want to tell my STBX, "are you happy?"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

Anyhow, it's going to be a long journey ahead. I hope I qualify to buy a townhouse or something along those lines. Renting a 3 bedroom apartment in the suburb where we live will be way too expensive. So either I qualify and take a withdrawl on my 401k (best case scenario) or I may need to live elsewhere and drive a whole bunch, which will suck!

I did check my credit score and it was better than expected!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

You could look into renting a room to someone in whatever house you rent. My mom rented to someone after my dad left, and I still remember those guys fondly.


----------



## frustratedman

turnera said:


> You could look into renting a room to someone in whatever house you rent. My mom rented to someone after my dad left, and I still remember those guys fondly.


As long as I qualify with the amount I can put down, life will be grand. I will be able to easily afford it and still have plenty leftover. I just want to provide a good life for my boys. That's all. Keep the lifestyle they're used to.

She just left the house to go to her mom's. It actually feels good. See ya! My older boy is lashing out even harder to her. Deep down, I kinda like that, in a way, because everything he says is pretty much true. Is that wrong of me? He's said stuff like "So I assume she wants the divorce and not you, right?"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

I, of course, don't verbalize it though. I have no regrets on what I've said to the kids up to this point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Tell your kids the damn truth. Do you know what kids hate most? Their parents KEEPING things from them...because they're 'kids.' A 16 year old deserves your respect. Tell him the truth.


----------



## honcho

frustratedman said:


> As long as I qualify with the amount I can put down, life will be grand. I will be able to easily afford it and still have plenty leftover. I just want to provide a good life for my boys. That's all. Keep the lifestyle they're used to.
> 
> She just left the house to go to her mom's. It actually feels good. See ya! My older boy is lashing out even harder to her. Deep down, I kinda like that, in a way, because everything he says is pretty much true. Is that wrong of me? He's said stuff like "So I assume she wants the divorce and not you, right?"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She will be spending the evening telling her mom how you have turned the boys against her most likely.


----------



## frustratedman

honcho said:


> She will be spending the evening telling her mom how you have turned the boys against her most likely.


No. I actually know her mom very well. We still get along fine. I'm not positive on what my wife has told her. She did say that she told her about her friendship "crossing the line." I doubt she bashes me too much because in reality, there's not a whole lot to bash. Her entire family loves me. That said, I realize that blood is thicker than water...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TaDor

@frustratedman: You said "I know everyone is thinking that I'm being gullable, etc., but I know this woman and I truly believe she has zero intent on hurting me.".

She has been hurting you for a very long time. You don't quite know her and she made almost no effort to repair the relationship. She keeps changing her mind on her stories and ideas. She has little problem leaving the household with her kids. That is where her mind is at. If you still have the GPS tracker on her car, leave it on for a while longer. You'll see where it ends up.

Oh, you are an AWESOME person - you have tried to trust your STBXW, to save your marriage for yourself, her and your boys. Many women would love to have a man like that.

You are also right, you are not emotionally ready for any real relationships. So just go with the physical fun with women. It'll be healthy for you. The girl you like and respect, if YOU date her now - its likely to be problematic because of the emotional situation and rebound effects.

When I was looking at my wife being gone, as she had moved out with the OM co-worker - so it was VERY PA. I was making my recovery plan. No drinking for at least a month, doing legal things, custody, working on myself, therapy. I already had a female friend available for physical "help" to gauge my ability to be emotionally ready to date women or One nighters, etc without breaking down. But my wife got out of her fantasy fog and is bending over backwards to make things rights. She's in detox, I have her phone and FB at my disposal, there are some "ugly" things on her phone - but they are truth and will help us heal as we reconcile.

You're already getting therapy, which is great. The fall out is going to take months, if not years for you to get over it. But who knows, you are older, wiser and have girls already looking at you.

And you REALLY need to tell your oldest the truth. Just go with the facts, don't make her a villain. "We were trying to work on our marriage, but in the end - she wants something else." You cannot make your STBXW love you.
Get therapy help for both kids too.


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## frustratedman

TaDor said:


> @frustratedman: You said "I know everyone is thinking that I'm being gullable, etc., but I know this woman and I truly believe she has zero intent on hurting me.".
> 
> She has been hurting you for a very long time. You don't quite know her and she made almost no effort to repair the relationship. She keeps changing her mind on her stories and ideas. She has little problem leaving the household with her kids. That is where her mind is at. If you still have the GPS tracker on her car, leave it on for a while longer. You'll see where it ends up.
> 
> Oh, you are an AWESOME person - you have tried to trust your STBXW, to save your marriage for yourself, her and your boys. Many women would love to have a man like that.
> 
> You are also right, you are not emotionally ready for any real relationships. So just go with the physical fun with women. It'll be healthy for you. The girl you like and respect, if YOU date her now - its likely to be problematic because of the emotional situation and rebound effects.
> 
> When I was looking at my wife being gone, as she had moved out with the OM co-worker - so it was VERY PA. I was making my recovery plan. No drinking for at least a month, doing legal things, custody, working on myself, therapy. I already had a female friend available for physical "help" to gauge my ability to be emotionally ready to date women or One nighters, etc without breaking down. But my wife got out of her fantasy fog and is bending over backwards to make things rights. She's in detox, I have her phone and FB at my disposal, there are some "ugly" things on her phone - but they are truth and will help us heal as we reconcile.
> 
> You're already getting therapy, which is great. The fall out is going to take months, if not years for you to get over it. But who knows, you are older, wiser and have girls already looking at you.
> 
> And you REALLY need to tell your oldest the truth. Just go with the facts, don't make her a villain. "We were trying to work on our marriage, but in the end - she wants something else." You cannot make your STBXW love you.
> Get therapy help for both kids too.


Thanks for the kind words!

So, to clarify, I meant that I don't think she'll try to hurt me financially in the divorce. You're absolutely right in saying she's been hurting me for years.

Best of luck with your situation. I'll have to read your story...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TaDor

My wife said "I didn't want the truth to hurt you." WTF?! The lies, the affair, the games were all very hurtful. Very painfully hurtful! She followed text-book cheating behavior.
Go for the mediation. Its cheaper, faster and easier. Both of you have a list of your own agreements and the mediator will make it into a legal form the court can use and agree with. If she is DOING this - then your STBXW is playing NICE. Otherwise, you have no idea what she is doing with a lawyer.

Here is the thing, when most women cheat on their SO, it actually causes some form of sexual-assault to her brain. A cheater has to create stories, lies and situations etc to people "they love" not just her husband, but her parents and children. Its stressful, etc. Of course, that is their problem - right?


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## frustratedman

TaDor said:


> My wife said "I didn't want the truth to hurt you." WTF?! The lies, the affair, the games were all very hurtful. Very painfully hurtful! She followed text-book cheating behavior.
> Go for the mediation. Its cheaper, faster and easier. Both of you have a list of your own agreements and the mediator will make it into a legal form the court can use and agree with. If she is DOING this - then your STBXW is playing NICE. Otherwise, you have no idea what she is doing with a lawyer.
> 
> Here is the thing, when most women is cheat on their SO, it actually causes some form of sexual-assault to her brain. A cheater has to create stories, lie, etc to someone "they love", they lie to their family, their children, etc. Its stressful, etc. Of course, that is their problem - right?


Yes - the lying hurts the most. I had to look back and compare events to tangible records, spanning 7 years... It's almost like our whole life was a lie!

Yes - she is being very fair right now and I believe she will throughout (assuming I play my cards right, which I am). Mediation is the route I'd like to take. Our divorce will probably be one of the easiest possible (with exception of the fact that kids are involved).

& Yes - I agree that she's damn near lying to herself and believing it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

I'm starting to feel more at ease about the entire situation and really letting her go. The more I think about her actions, the uglier she gets. I just want say "go to your bf's house and bang him, I no longer give a $#!t."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

But the part that saddens me is the kids, as expected. I hope these hard curve balls of life will make all of us stronger in the end. I also don't want my boys thinking "I'll never get married - look how mom & dad ended up."

When we got married, even though the circumstances weren't ideal, I never once thought we would divorce. It's definitely not in my nature. When I took those vows, I meant every word.

There I go again, rambling on!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chuck71

FM..... I understand how you empathize with your boys.

I was 11 when my mom's BiL picked me up at a friend's house

one evening. Wondered WTF is mom. He drove me to where mom

was at.... friend's house. Mom told me she and pop were getting a D.

I cried my arse off... The life I knew was over. Who would take me 

to school, to ball practice, help me with homework. Yeah... sounds

childish but... at that time, I was a child. That was "my world." Not 

saying you aren't but try to understand what may not be important to you

is critical to them. My pop was very bad at doing that. I made sure I wasn't

with my stepson. Telling them the truth is hard.... but they want to know.

It will shape their day-to-day until they are grown. 

Your STBXW will be losing a great guy.... it'll just take her losing you to 

realize it. There will be a day where you won't give two schits about her.

No it won't be next week or next month.... but it will come. I promise.


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## bfree

turnera said:


> Tell your kids the damn truth. Do you know what kids hate most? Their parents KEEPING things from them...because they're 'kids.' A 16 year old deserves your respect. Tell him the truth.


Agreed. I'd bet he knows more than everyone thinks. I'd bet a large part of his frustration is that his parents are gaslighting him. Know what that feels like FM? How angry and frustrated were/are you by your wife's manipulation and deceit. Now you're doing it to your son. Tell him!


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## bfree

frustratedman said:


> Yes - the lying hurts the most. I had to look back and compare events to tangible records, spanning 7 years... It's almost like our whole life was a lie!
> 
> Yes - she is being very fair right now and I believe she will throughout (assuming I play my cards right, which I am). Mediation is the route I'd like to take. Our divorce will probably be one of the easiest possible (with exception of the fact that kids are involved).
> 
> & Yes - I agree that she's damn near lying to herself and believing it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm really trying to be gentle here but aren't you lying to your son? Is your son smart? Do you honestly believe he doesn't already have some idea of what's going on? How much do you think it hurts him that his parents are deceiving him? If you continue how much will it hurt him when he learns the complete truth?


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## honcho

frustratedman said:


> Yes - the lying hurts the most. I had to look back and compare events to tangible records, spanning 7 years... It's almost like our whole life was a lie!
> 
> Yes - she is being very fair right now and I believe she will throughout (assuming I play my cards right, which I am). Mediation is the route I'd like to take. Our divorce will probably be one of the easiest possible (with exception of the fact that kids are involved).
> 
> & Yes - I agree that she's damn near lying to herself and believing it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She is playing nice now because she is getting what she wants, a divorce. 

Divorce is as easy or as hard as 2 people make it. Having experience with what should have been a simple divorce turn into a nightmare, I would highly encourage you to get it done quickly as you can. Be fair, even a little generous to get it over with. It's best for kids, you and her.

The longer these things drag out and the more she realizes the new single life isn't what she thought it would be you will most likely find the niceness go away


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## frustratedman

bfree said:


> I'm really trying to be gentle here but aren't you lying to your son? Is your son smart? Do you honestly believe he doesn't already have some idea of what's going on? How much do you think it hurts him that his parents are deceiving him? If you continue how much will it hurt him when he learns the complete truth?


I understand what you're saying. My oldest is smart as a whip. He's lashing out right now, mainly at her. This isn't due to me cutting her down, but because when he said that we didn't try, I told him that I truly gave it my all. He has his thoughts on the matter. He is angry at her. I'm trying to stop that just because it's not healthy. She will ALWAYS love these kids, until the day she dies. This much I know...

Things are very amicable right now. She wants only one thing from me and that is for us to be good co-parents and focus on the kids. Frankly, I'd like to keep it that way. It's truly in everyone's best interest.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

honcho said:


> She is playing nice now because she is getting what she wants, a divorce.
> 
> Divorce is as easy or as hard as 2 people make it. Having experience with what should have been a simple divorce turn into a nightmare, I would highly encourage you to get it done quickly as you can. Be fair, even a little generous to get it over with. It's best for kids, you and her.
> 
> The longer these things drag out and the more she realizes the new single life isn't what she thought it would be you will most likely find the niceness go away


Agreed. We are going the cheapest and easiest route possible, which I believe is mediation. We'll draw up our agreement and go from there. It'll be very simple. She doesn't want alimony or child support and she wants half and half custody.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

frustratedman said:


> He is angry at her. I'm trying to stop that just because it's not healthy.


Actually, it's healthy to let him feel whatever he feels about the situation and about the two of you. What's not healthy is trying to tamp that down, which teaches him not to trust his feelings or that he's not valuable enough to express them.


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## phillybeffandswiss

frustratedman said:


> I understand what you're saying. My oldest is smart as a whip. He's lashing out right now, mainly at her. This isn't due to me cutting her down, but because when he said that we didn't try, I told him that I truly gave it my all. He has his thoughts on the matter. He is angry at her. I'm trying to stop that just because it's not healthy. She will ALWAYS love these kids, until the day she dies. This much I know...
> 
> Things are very amicable right now. She wants only one thing from me and that is for us to be good co-parents and focus on the kids. Frankly, I'd like to keep it that way. It's truly in everyone's best interest.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Depends on the lashing out. Suppressing and correcting can be just as unhealthy, you better be careful before he resents you as well.


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## bfree

frustratedman said:


> I understand what you're saying. My oldest is smart as a whip. He's lashing out right now, mainly at her. This isn't due to me cutting her down, but because when he said that we didn't try, I told him that I truly gave it my all. He has his thoughts on the matter. He is angry at her. I'm trying to stop that just because it's not healthy. She will ALWAYS love these kids, until the day she dies. This much I know...
> 
> Things are very amicable right now. She wants only one thing from me and that is for us to be good co-parents and focus on the kids. Frankly, I'd like to keep it that way. It's truly in everyone's best interest.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Okay, you're a smart guy but forgive me for saying this but you can be a tad dense. It's okay, I can be dense too. If you'll allow me to translate I believe you're saying that you are willing to trade honesty with your son in exchange for avoiding the wrath of your wife. You are bartering his peace of mind for a better deal in the divorce. Am I wrong or does it all boil down to this? What are you going to tell him when he asks you why you lied to him?


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## frustratedman

bfree said:


> Okay, you're a smart guy but forgive me for saying this but you can be a tad dense. It's okay, I can be dense too. If you'll allow me to translate I believe you're saying that you are willing to trade honesty with your son in exchange for avoiding the wrath of your wife. You are bartering his peace of mind for a better deal in the divorce. Am I wrong or does it all boil down to this? What are you going to tell him when he asks you why you lied to him?


I haven't lied to him... Well, at least recently. Let me explain. 

Six months ago, he flat out asked me "So is she cheatin' on you or what?" My gut reaction was to say no and I did say no. It really took me by surprise! In hindsight, perhaps I should have said "Why do you ask that question?" In all honesty, I couldn't really say yes,because I had no concrete proof that she was. All I had was all the stuff mentioned on this thread previously.

As for the current situation, I haven't lied, ver batim. I have left our reasoning for the divorce rather vague. He hasn't flat out asked that question again.

As for the future, if it comes up, I'm pretty sure he won't resent me. We've got an excellent relationship. If anything, he would be angry with her, as he already is. He would understand why I did what I did.

As for the "wrath of my wife," honestly, male friends & family that have been through divorce and who I've talked to all say the same thing. My situation is about the best possible option imaginable. So people on this forum are most definitely entitled to have an opinion and voice it, but, I'm living it and have spent countless hours thinking about various options, outcomes, etc.

So that's where I stand. If people understand my perspective, cool. If not, that's also cool. I'm just tryin' my best. I've never been through it and I'm sure I'll make mistakes. But, I'm making calculated decisions and not just shooting from the hip.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Depends on the lashing out. Suppressing and correcting can be just as unhealthy, you better be careful before he resents you as well.


Point well taken! As his father, I do think that he has to have some amount of respect for his mom. But, you're right that he's entitled to be enraged at her right now. He feels his whole world has been shattered. He knows that she's beig selfish.

He criticized us, initially upon hearing about the divorce, on Saturday. He said something like "You're two adults and you can't resolve your issues? I feel bad for (little brother). He has to live with you guys for the next 6 years before he goes to college." That was pretty mature, in my opinion. We're setting a horrible example, really. Or... she is and has been for years.

Not to keep beating a dead horse, but whether she physically cheated or not, there is NO QUESTION that she TOTALLY disrespected me, our marriage and ultimately, the whole family, including the kids!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## honcho

frustratedman said:


> Agreed. We are going the cheapest and easiest route possible, which I believe is mediation. We'll draw up our agreement and go from there. It'll be very simple. She doesn't want alimony or child support and she wants half and half custody.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The famous last words from my ex to me were I don't want your money, just my freedom. Several friends of mine heard similar when there divorce started. It never works out that way.

If she doesn't want alimony or child support and the final divorce decree goes thru like that start buying lottery tickets to capitalize on your good luck.


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## frustratedman

I talked to one of my best friends today, as I was having a crappy day. He said, once again, there is no doubt that some time in the future, she will regret her choices. I love my buddies. They've all been phenomenal and supportive throughout. They're doing exactly what friends do... Be there for you in your darkest hours.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

honcho said:


> The famous last words from my ex to me were I don't want your money, just my freedom. Several friends of mine heard similar when there divorce started. It never works out that way.
> 
> If she doesn't want alimony or child support and the final divorce decree goes thru like that start buying lottery tickets to capitalize on your good luck.


Honcho - I get it. Keep tabs on this thread. If I'm wrong, which I HIGHLY DOUBT, I will go back to this post, eat my words and praise you. I'm telling you that she has zero interest in hurting me. She wants her kids to have a dad who can support them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

Oh yeah Honcho. We're going to try to keep lawyers out of it as much as possible. I'm sure we'll need one for legal documents, etc. But, everything's already divided up and we don't have much to fight over in terms of property, etc.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

My ex-SIL told my brother she only wanted what she brought into the marriage. So my brother didn't get a lawyer. One day about 8 months later, he gets a notification stating that he has until 5pm that day to file a motion, or else he forfeits a LOT of money and property (it's hard to explain the legal loophole she found). Anyway, he had to leave work immediately, go find a lawyer, get something handled, and turn it in before 5pm to avoid losing it all.

He was set to retire that year, they were going to be VERY well off, had they stayed together. Then she realized what she was about to throw away for her old high school lover she was cheating on my brother with. So she went back on what she promised.


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## Cynthia

I tell my kids, "You've got to feel what you feel. What you do with it is what matters." 
It's important to allow ourselves to experience our feelings, but we don't have to behave badly in the process. I do not want my kids burying their feelings, but they do need self control when dealing with those feelings. Of course, they also need someone to talk to and help in processing. Sometimes parents can be great for that or even a therapist.


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## honcho

frustratedman said:


> Honcho - I get it. Keep tabs on this thread. If I'm wrong, which I HIGHLY DOUBT, I will go back to this post, eat my words and praise you. I'm telling you that she has zero interest in hurting me. She wants her kids to have a dad who can support them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm not looking for praise and I do hope I am wrong, just don't be unprepared or caught off guard. If she starts bring up things and you have answers and sound "in charge" the process will go easier. 

Study, know and understand the rules in your state, figure what you might be potentially on the hook for, it's better to be over prepared than under. 

Once lawyers and courts get involved divorce can quickly turn into an out of control situation. Obviously the more the two of you can work and agree and get it legal fast the better off you are.


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## frustratedman

honcho said:


> I'm not looking for praise and I do hope I am wrong, just don't be unprepared or caught off guard. If she starts bring up things and you have answers and sound "in charge" the process will go easier.
> 
> Study, know and understand the rules in your state, figure what you might be potentially on the hook for, it's better to be over prepared than under.
> 
> Once lawyers and courts get involved divorce can quickly turn into an out of control situation. Obviously the more the two of you can work and agree and get it legal fast the better off you are.


Sound advice, sir.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chuck71

honcho said:


> I'm not looking for praise and I do hope I am wrong, just don't be unprepared or caught off guard. If she starts bring up things and you have answers and sound "in charge" the process will go easier.
> 
> Study, know and understand the rules in your state, figure what you might be potentially on the hook for, it's better to be over prepared than under.
> 
> Once lawyers and courts get involved divorce can quickly turn into an out of control situation. Obviously the more the two of you can work and agree and get it legal fast the better off you are.


Peyton Manning = Football
Saturday Night Live = Humor
Stoners = XLarge pizza alltheway
Lawyers = Billable hours

They're in it for the $. NEVER trust a lawyer you are not paying


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## TaDor

Hell, never trust the lawyer you ARE paying!
@frustratedman : a Mediator is usually A LAWYER! You both go in with your agreements, he spends 1~2 hours looking at it, confirming that you both are in agreement - make some tweaks. Then he has someone else type it up into a court usable document which he or someone he pays, to file it for him (takes about 30 min at the court house) and you're pretty much done. Oh, plus the court fees.

The faster you get it over with, the better for both of you and the kids.

A lot of people go that route just fine. 
@honcho : I took my wife to court for custody. But since we were not at war, rather than fight me for custody - she gave me custody of our son. It was in everyones best interests and for that, I removed requiring her to pay child-support. We worked things out in that regard and we are starting our R as well. Not saying it s a success story, time will tell.


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## bfree

frustratedman said:


> I haven't lied to him... Well, at least recently. Let me explain.
> 
> Six months ago, he flat out asked me "So is she cheatin' on you or what?" My gut reaction was to say no and I did say no. It really took me by surprise! In hindsight, perhaps I should have said "Why do you ask that question?" In all honesty, I couldn't really say yes,because I had no concrete proof that she was. All I had was all the stuff mentioned on this thread previously.
> 
> As for the current situation, I haven't lied, ver batim. I have left our reasoning for the divorce rather vague. He hasn't flat out asked that question again.
> 
> As for the future, if it comes up, I'm pretty sure he won't resent me. We've got an excellent relationship. If anything, he would be angry with her, as he already is. He would understand why I did what I did.
> 
> As for the "wrath of my wife," honestly, male friends & family that have been through divorce and who I've talked to all say the same thing. My situation is about the best possible option imaginable. So people on this forum are most definitely entitled to have an opinion and voice it, but, I'm living it and have spent countless hours thinking about various options, outcomes, etc.
> 
> So that's where I stand. If people understand my perspective, cool. If not, that's also cool. I'm just tryin' my best. I've never been through it and I'm sure I'll make mistakes. But, I'm making calculated decisions and not just shooting from the hip.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is the last I'll say on the subject because it's obvious you've already decided not to tell him. He asked you if his mother was cheating and you said no. Then you found out she was and you never went back and corrected your statement.

Son: I asked you if mom was cheating and you said she wasn't.

Fm: Well at the time you asked I didn't know for certain.

Son: And when you found out you never thought to tell me? You let me continue to believe a lie?

Fm: ?

No matter how good your relationship was/is deception by a parent shakes a child's fundamental foundation to the core. Think of how your wife's deception changed your opinion of her. That is what you risk with your son. I'm not going to beat a dead horse since you've already made up your mind but I suggest you are making a huge mistake. There are many people on TAM that were in your son's shoes and were lied to by one or both of their parents. It affected them greatly and shaped much of their lives.


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## Chuck71

bfree said:


> This is the last I'll say on the subject because it's obvious you've already decided not to tell him. He asked you if his mother was cheating and you said no. Then you found out she was and you never went back and corrected your statement.
> 
> Son: I asked you if mom was cheating and you said she wasn't.
> 
> Fm: Well at the time you asked I didn't know for certain.
> 
> Son: And when you found out you never thought to tell me? You let me continue to believe a lie?
> 
> Fm: ?
> 
> No matter how good your relationship was/is deception by a parent shakes a child's fundamental foundation to the core. Think of how your wife's deception changed your opinion of her. That is what you risk with your son. I'm not going to beat a dead horse since you've already made up your mind but I suggest you are making a huge mistake. There are many people on TAM that were in your son's shoes and were lied to by one or both of their parents. It affected them greatly and shaped much of their lives.


Agree 110%.

FM.... I was about 12 when I caught my pop in a lie. I never took him at face value again.

As years went by.... yes I trusted him but only to a degree. I always went in with skepticism. 

That is not a healthy thing to say as a teen.


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## phillybeffandswiss

frustratedman said:


> "You're two adults and you can't resolve your issues? I feel bad for (little brother). He has to live with you guys for the next 6 years before he goes to college." That was pretty mature, in my opinion. We're setting a horrible example, really. Or... she is and has been for years.]


 No, you'll only be setting a bad example if you lie to him. Things happen in life and some are marriage or friendship ending. There are just some things which cannot be worked out. As an adult, this is something you experience throughout your life.


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## Cynthia

Kids should know why their parents split, as long as they learn it at their level of understanding and are not given TMI.

How's this:
Son, you asked me a while ago if your mother was cheating on me. I did not know what was going on. She has now admitted to having an inappropriate relationship with another man. I don't know what kind of relationship that she has with him. She swears he is only a friend, but she refused to give him up and decided that she didn't want to be married to me anymore. I did what I could, but she gets to decide on her own life.


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## frustratedman

So, it's really setting in that we're done. It's a roller coaster ride of emotions, but I'm trying to be tough and not get down.

I realize people are thinking "don't focus on her or waste brain cells thinking about her," but that's easier said than done. I remind myself that my STBX let me down, big time. It's hard to think about how cold she is. It's kind of like a secret dark side that she can easily mask.

You all got me thinking about what to tell my oldest. People seem very adamant about telling them. I still don't feel the need to do it before the big D, if I do it at all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cynthia

If either of them ask for further information, please tell them something tangible. Another example would be, "Mom had some kind of relationship with another man. It was interfering with our marriage. I told her to break it off or divorce, so she left."
It's not complicated. You don't have to tell them she was having an affair. But telling them a simple truth will help them in forming their opinions not only on the situation at hand, but in their way of thinking about life and their ability to form truthful opinions and to make good decisions.


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## G.J.

CynthiaDe said:


> Kids should know why their parents split, as long as they learn it at their level of understanding and are not given TMI.
> 
> How's this:
> Son, you asked me a while ago if your mother was cheating on me. I did not know what was going on. She has now admitted to having an inappropriate relationship with another man. I don't know what kind of relationship that she has with him. She swears he is only a friend, but she refused to give him up and decided that she didn't want to be married to me anymore. I did what I could, but she gets to decide on her own life.


:iagree:


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## TaDor

@frustratedman : lets talk about lies a bit. I have a nephew who is 11. He has spent a lot of time sleeping over here at my home - with and without his mom. But as with many kids, he sometimes tells lies. For the past few years, My wife and I have jumped on his case for telling lies, he gets caught all the time. We help teach him that LYING is wrong.

Funny, then my wife lies to me, etc. Ironic... and very insulting. It also shows the nephew that adults lie... and he's upset with my wife.

Your kids ALREADY know you're getting divorced. Tell your oldest, and he'll filter it down to the youngest. Otherwise, both boys will have issues with you as well. Your wife has shattered their world for a POSOM, who is replaceable. Your kids are not replaceable.


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## turnera

They need to know that ONE of their parents will tell them the truth. And they can handle knowing that one of their parents screwed up, did something wrong. But think of how it feels to have your parents control your life - they are dependent on you for SO much, they have to be able to trust you to be honest with them. They WILL find out. And once they find out that you lied to them, their trust in you is gone, they'll feel they're on their own for finding out their own truth about things. Especially with a teenager.


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## bfree

FM, why don't you admit the real reason your aren't telling your boys? It's not because it's what is best for them. It's not even because it's best for your wife. It's because it's best for you. Because if you told them that the reason their lives are being torn apart is because their mother cheated on you then you're afraid you'll look like a bigger failure to them then you already think you are. You're afraid that you won't look like a strong man and a good father. You'll appear weak and small, right? You know it's true. You know that's the real reason isn't it?

But that thought process comes from your ego. It originates from a place of selfishness. That thought process is a mirror image of your wife's mind when she cheated on you. It's not about them, it's all about you.


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## turnera

That, or he's afraid she'll be mad at him and he'll lose any chance at getting her back.


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## Archangel2

CynthiaDe said:


> If either of them ask for further information, please tell them something tangible. Another example would be, "Mom had some kind of relationship with another man. It was interfering with our marriage. I told her to break it off or divorce, so she left."
> It's not complicated. You don't have to tell them she was having an affair. But telling them a simple truth will help them in forming their opinions not only on the situation at hand, but in their way of thinking about life and their ability to form truthful opinions and to make good decisions.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Frustrated - Just be fact based in whatever you tell them. Remember, you hold the high ground. You fought the good fight. You tried to save this marriage, but she was the one who said Retrouvaille was BS. You can look at yourself in the mirror and say that you gave 125%. She can't!


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## frustratedman

bfree said:


> FM, why don't you admit the real reason your aren't telling your boys? It's not because it's what is best for them. It's not even because it's best for your wife. It's because it's best for you. Because if you told them that the reason their lives are being torn apart is because their mother cheated on you then you're afraid you'll look like a bigger failure to them then you already think you are. You're afraid that you won't look like a strong man and a good father. You'll appear weak and small, right? You know it's true. You know that's the real reason isn't it?
> 
> But that thought process comes from your ego. It originates from a place of selfishness. That thought process is a mirror image of your wife's mind when she cheated on you. It's not about them, it's all about you.


I think this is harsh and inaccurate.

First of all, I still have zero proof that she's cheated and she still claims 100% that nothing physical happened the entire time. She does admit to flirting, liking the "attention" from the DB and she absolutely knew what she was doing was a betrayal.

Next, this isn't about ego, looking strong or weak or acting selfish. It's about timing and other issues. Do you understand that we both have agreed to not "fighting" whatsoever, no lawyers (except when needed for legal purposes) and an agreement to essentially be good co parents. Every person I've talked to is like "man - my ex turned into a money hungry >^%>#." I believe that this will turn out well for me. If things go sour, I've got a back up plan.

My older son is already angry at her. If I told him that, right now, he would go ballistic. Then, what would happen? Geeez I don't know.

She would definitely have more reason to make this not so peaceful. Guess who that hurts? EVERYONE!

Then, I can't afford a house and a chance to give my kids a decent life. Right now, if things go well and I have zero alimony, zero child support, she doesn't touch my pension or my 401k, I'll have a fighting chance.

So...? Is that just dumb of me or what? Am I afraid of her? No. Is she being amicable right now? Yes.

I guarantee she would think that I was doing something vindictive!!!

Would I like to tell him? Yes! Will he be angry if I do later when the dust settles? I truly don't think he will and I know how he thinks and processes life events. He has already experienced let downs in life. For example, when we moved and he had to switch schools or when politics kept him out of sports (this is how it is where I live - kids get damn near recruited to play in HS).

Anyhow, that post has been bugging me and I finally got a chance to respond.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

turnera said:


> That, or he's afraid she'll be mad at him and he'll lose any chance at getting her back.


I'd say getting her back is off the table and I don't even think I'd take her back at this point. I gave it a good run. I'm becoming more excited about my future. I can now enjoy the things I like, pursue my passions and spend time how I want to. If I end up in a relationship, it'll be more like "here's me - like it or not."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

CynthiaDe said:


> If either of them ask for further information, please tell them something tangible. Another example would be, "Mom had some kind of relationship with another man. It was interfering with our marriage. I told her to break it off or divorce, so she left."
> It's not complicated. You don't have to tell them she was having an affair. But telling them a simple truth will help them in forming their opinions not only on the situation at hand, but in their way of thinking about life and their ability to form truthful opinions and to make good decisions.


CynthiaDe - again the voice of reason! That's a great way to put it. But again, right now isn't the time. It seems like everyone thinks it is, but I disagree. Why shoot myself in the foot and hurt my mini family's future?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

What I'm referring to is purchasing versus renting. Rent in this area is super high. I can purchase and save around $500 a month by doing so. Here's hopin'!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## honcho

frustratedman said:


> Then, I can't afford a house and a chance to give my kids a decent life. Right now, if things go well and I have zero alimony, zero child support, she doesn't touch my pension or my 401k, I'll have a fighting chance.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


See this part I don't get, the deal is too good. It would be a miracle to get that. How long does a divorce take in your state? I'd be in the express lane to get it done. Usually there's a price to pay for deals that are too good, that's what makes me nervous about your situation. What's the price gonna be?

Again I hope it works out for you this way.


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## Chuck71

Hope for the best but expect the worst. Time for your poker face.

Keep in mind.... no you never did catch her in a PA. She admitted to an EA. The EA is what led you

to suspecting the PA.... No EA.... maybe things would have turned out better.

Lawyers are in the biz to take $ any way they can. 

By somewhat walking on egg shells to get a better deal is understandable..... just be ready

when her life deviates from wonderful and..... she decides to blame someone.....it will be you.


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## frustratedman

Thanks Chuck. I'm prepping in every way possible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GROUNDPOUNDER

I think so many here want immediate exposure, far and wide, for the same reason as filing for D right out of the gate.

Slap the iron on while it's still glowing red.

In many cases, it does help snap the WS out of the "fog". Even if it doesn't, in the end the BS threw some of the pain they were caused back at the WS.

In your case I doubt it would do anything more than p!ssing off your stbxw and in turn, making the D less favorable for you.

Many posters here feel that your stbxw more than likely had already gone PA(and I agree). But at this point I also agree with you. Why should you even care, right. There's a lot to be said for slapping the iron fast on a "delusional" WS that say they want out of the marriage too.

Get everything signed while she's still in La La land, then if for some reason she rethinks it, realizes that it's a big mistake, she can try to win you back as A BF.


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## frustratedman

I'm trying to play the hand I've been dealt to the best of my ability. This could end up being the best thing that ever happened to me.

I've got actual proof of the EA, there's no doubt about that. I've got nuclear options if things get ugly. I could still write their HR dept, which would DEFINITELY humiliate both of them and possibly even get them terminated. We'll see how this plays out, but I fully believe that she has no intention of screwing me over.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree

FM, if you took offense to my last post...good. That's exactly what I was trying to do. One if the best things about this forum is the multitude of opinions you will receive. Posting and reading responses will get you to think. It will challenge you to reexamine your thought process. I'm not advocating you go for nuclear exposure. I am just concerned about your relationship with your children being damaged going forward. As you well know, trust is a very difficult thing to try to repair. I just don't want the trust your children have in you to be shaken.


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## frustratedman

honcho said:


> See this part I don't get, the deal is too good. It would be a miracle to get that. How long does a divorce take in your state? I'd be in the express lane to get it done. Usually there's a price to pay for deals that are too good, that's what makes me nervous about your situation. What's the price gonna be?
> 
> Again I hope it works out for you this way.


I know what you're saying here. I'm pretty sure my STBX feels guilty, as she should, to a degree. She has said things like "I love your mom so much, losing that relationship hurts," etc. Her reputation and concience is somewhat at stake here as well. I truly feel like anything I did or didn't do in our marriage doesn't justify her assaulting my life. This divorce hurts so many people and relationships... Anyhow, it may sound too good to be true but I believe it will go smoothly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## *Deidre*

I didn't read this entire thread but read a few key parts, and I'm sorry you are going through what you are, but you seem to be very resolved which is very good to read! As far as your ex goes...you should consider going 'no contact.' With kids, this means to only communicate with her relating to the kids. I have two friends with very little kids, and their exes try to engage them with manipulative BS, and they just cut them off, and only answer texts and calls dealing with their kids. When she starts saying manipulative nonsense like 'I miss your mom,' just say...well, I have to go now. Over and over, say those words, when she wants to go down memory lane. She sounds like a sociopath, honestly...cold, distant, manipulative. (and they don't ever change) I commend you for leaving this because from the first post, it seems like you weren't right for one another, just something in how you described your relationship and her. I wish you well for the future!  I pray for your kids and you, that somehow, things will all work out.


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## frustratedman

bfree said:


> FM, if you took offense to my last post...good. That's exactly what I was trying to do. One if the best things about this forum is the multitude of opinions you will receive. Posting and reading responses will get you to think. It will challenge you to reexamine your thought process. I'm not advocating you go for nuclear exposure. I am just concerned about your relationship with your children being damaged going forward. As you well know, trust is a very difficult thing to try to repair. I just don't want the trust your children have in you to be shaken.


Fair enough and it worked lol!

I appreciate EVERYONE's opinion and definitely try to consider all the factors.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

*Deidre* said:


> I didn't read this entire thread but read a few key parts, and I'm sorry you are going through what you are, but you seem to be very resolved which is very good to read! As far as your ex goes...you should consider going 'no contact.' With kids, this means to only communicate with her relating to the kids. I have two friends with very little kids, and their exes try to engage them with manipulative BS, and they just cut them off, and only answer texts and calls dealing with their kids. When she starts saying manipulative nonsense like 'I miss your mom,' just say...well, I have to go now. Over and over, say those words, when she wants to go down memory lane. She sounds like a sociopath, honestly...cold, distant, manipulative. (and they don't ever change) I commend you for leaving this because from the first post, it seems like you weren't right for one another, just something in how you described your relationship and her. I wish you well for the future!  I pray for your kids and you, that somehow, things will all work out.


I appreciate the comment! I would say a few things:

She's not a sociopath. She does have "daddy" issues from her childhood but honestly, if you met her you'd probably like her. She has a magnetic personality.

I'm not perfect. I've got my own issues but I'm working on them. I wasn't the perfect husband or father.

You raise an interesting point about our compatibility. I always looked it as sort of an "opposites attract" thing. We had a lot of fun together over the years. But she looks down on some things that I enjoy. I'm a musician and music lover. I occassionally smoke weed (not in front of the kids in any way - I'm a musician what can I say?)

We've grown apart. She wants something more than I can give her. She's put her "friendship" above our marriage and blatantly disrespected me, time and time again.

Anyhow, I'm coming to terms with us going our separate ways.

As far as no contact, again, she is being quite amicable right now. I'm looking towards finalizing the divorce scott free and moving on with my life.

In the beginning of our latest falling out in July 2015, I felt worthless and unattractive, like a discarded piece of rubbish. Over time and work, I discovered that YES - there are women who are attracted to me. Now that I know that and have more confidence, my priorities have shifted to my kids, living arrangements, finances, etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

BTW, yes this thread is SUPER long. I once read through the whole thing and it brought back many memories and emotions...

Speaking of emotions, now that she's basically out of the house, I can play my guitar whenever the hell I want and sing/write happy or sad songs!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## *Deidre*

frustratedman said:


> I appreciate the comment! I would say a few things:
> 
> She's not a sociopath. She does have "daddy" issues from her childhood but honestly, if you met her you'd probably like her. She has a magnetic personality.
> 
> I'm not perfect. I've got my own issues but I'm working on them. I wasn't the perfect husband or father.
> 
> You raise an interesting point about our compatibility. I always looked it as sort of an "opposites attract" thing. We had a lot of fun together over the years. But she looks down on some things that I enjoy. I'm a musician and music lover. I occassionally smoke weed (not in front of the kids in any way - I'm a musician what can I say?)
> 
> We've grown apart. She wants something more than I can give her. She's put her "friendship" above our marriage and blatantly disrespected me, time and time again.
> 
> Anyhow, I'm coming to terms with us going our separate ways.
> 
> As far as no contact, again, she is being quite amicable right now. I'm looking towards finalizing the divorce scott free and moving on with my life.
> 
> In the beginning of our latest falling out in July 2015, I felt worthless and unattractive, like a discarded piece of rubbish. Over time and work, I discovered that YES - there are women who are attracted to me. Now that I know that and have more confidence, my priorities have shifted to my kids, living arrangements, finances, etc.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sociopaths are actually pretty charming on the surface lol But...anyway 

Glad you are in a better place. I'm engaged, and hoping that my marriage doesn't undergo anything too terrible...cheating is a deal breaker for my fiance and me, we are clear on that. Think it's interesting that you never really had 'proof' of physical infidelity, but ended things anyway. You will heal ...give yourself time.


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## frustratedman

*Deidre* said:


> Sociopaths are actually pretty charming on the surface lol But...anyway
> 
> Glad you are in a better place. I'm engaged, and hoping that my marriage doesn't undergo anything too terrible...cheating is a deal breaker for my fiance and me, we are clear on that. Think it's interesting that you never really had 'proof' of physical infidelity, but ended things anyway. You will heal ...give yourself time.


Wow you're on an infidelity forum but haven't experienced it? Quite a rarity! I hope the best for you!

Yeah - there's no hard proof. But, to put it in a nutshell:

In 2011, I discovered hundreds of texts. Did a ton of research. Confronted. Went to counselling. She agreed to stop all personal contact. Years pass but I could feel it. July of last year I checked her phone. Found an email where he says he had a tough time not wanting or trying to kiss her. Bam. Done.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

I wouldn't expect you (or anyone for that matter) to read this monster... But there's WAY more to the story.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

By the way, I recommend reading the 5 Languages of Love if you haven't already. I also recommend GOOD COMMUNICATION. It seems like my wife expected me to read her mind. Unfortunately, my crystal ball was too foggy!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TaDor

It doesn't matter if its an EA or PA, she's not making any effort to put you and her kids FIRST. Can't expect someone to change on a dime, but the process of her moving out and you divorcing her has already started.

Also, even if it was just an EA - since you have both officially separated, she can go out and have sex with anyone she wants - the OM or some guy at a bar. IMHO, nothing you have said has shown that that it was only EA - that relationship has been going a long time and the guy is afraid of you about his job. So, yeah - I'd say its very unlikely it was strictly EA. If it was going on for a few months, maybe.

So be honest, you tried to save your marriage, your STBXW made NO effort, or at least not yet.

Guess what kind of pictures are on my wife's phone when SHE told me IN MY FACE that she and the OM were "not having sex"? 30 minutes after I dropped her off (late in DEC), she sent the OM a new text of her being nude and sexy, "come bang me" - and even had the meanness at that time to post that "He's here" and it sure wasn't me.

When someone is having an affair, they lie. There is no healing until ugly the truth is brought out. The shame of their actions. Hence, while' I'm thrilled of the progress we're doing for our relationship - I'm not closed to being "healed" or trusting.

So yeah, take care of yourself. Move on. Maybe someday she'll change her mind, but maybe you'll move on. Or if you give her a chance, its on your terms.


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## frustratedman

So... It happened. I had a one night stand. Honestly, I think it's helping get over my STBX. It's like I no longer care, whatsoever. I feel no guilt. In fact, I feel more alive than I have in a long time!

The girl is texting me non stop. Not sure if there's a chance of a future with her, as she lives 4 hours away. She's someone I have never met. Yes I wore protection.

I'll tell ya what - it's been a long time so I lasted forever and it was awesome! Sorry if that's too graphic, but hey we're all adults, right?

Anyhow, now that that's over, time to continue focusing on my kids and future! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chuck71

The D date is a year after separation where you are right? UGH.... way too long.

The clock is ticking isn't it? In my state it is just 60 days no kids, 90 with.

In year wait states do you just need confirmed separate addresses?


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## gyspy14

It sounds to me like you wont rest until you find proof of a physical affair. What fi she really DIDN'T have sex with this guy... you'll keep digging until she does... or until you go crazy.

To me, it sounds like this relationship is already over. You'll keep looking.. and even if you never find anything... you'll always wonder. 

You need to decide to either put it behind you and trust her. or realize that you don't trust her... and get out.


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## frustratedman

gyspy14 said:


> It sounds to me like you wont rest until you find proof of a physical affair. What fi she really DIDN'T have sex with this guy... you'll keep digging until she does... or until you go crazy.
> 
> To me, it sounds like this relationship is already over. You'll keep looking.. and even if you never find anything... you'll always wonder.
> 
> You need to decide to either put it behind you and trust her. or realize that you don't trust her... and get out.


Hmmm... It's a long thread but yeah - I'm done and have been for a while now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

frustratedman said:


> So... It happened. I had a one night stand. Honestly, I think it's helping get over my STBX. It's like I no longer care, whatsoever. I feel no guilt. In fact, I feel more alive than I have in a long time!
> 
> The girl is texting me non stop. Not sure if there's a chance of a future with her, as she lives 4 hours away. She's someone I have never met. Yes I wore protection.
> 
> I'll tell ya what - it's been a long time so I lasted forever and it was awesome! Sorry if that's too graphic, but hey we're all adults, right?
> 
> Anyhow, now that that's over, time to continue focusing on my kids and future!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You can't get too graphic with us. Most of the veterans here have read about sh!t and seen sh!t that would make a porn star blush.


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## frustratedman

bandit.45 said:


> You can't get too graphic with us. Most of the veterans here have read about sh!t and seen sh!t that would make a porn star blush.


Honestly, I felt like a porn star lol. I guess that's what happens when a very sexual person is deprived for 7 months lol!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

frustratedman said:


> Honestly, I felt like a porn star lol. I guess that's what happens when a very sexual person is deprived for 7 months lol!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well good. It's good to get some mojo back.


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## Cynthia

frustratedman said:


> Honestly, I felt like a porn star lol. I guess that's what happens when a very sexual person is deprived for 7 months lol!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Apparently this is why she is blowing up your phone.

Eat some ice cream to cool down. lol


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## Spotthedeaddog

bfree said:


> FM, why don't you admit the real reason your aren't telling your boys? It's not because it's what is best for them. It's not even because it's best for your wife. It's because it's best for you. Because if you told them that the reason their lives are being torn apart is because their mother cheated on you then you're afraid you'll look like a bigger failure to them then you already think you are. You're afraid that you won't look like a strong man and a good father. You'll appear weak and small, right? You know it's true. You know that's the real reason isn't it?
> 
> But that thought process comes from your ego. It originates from a place of selfishness. That thought process is a mirror image of your wife's mind when she cheated on you. It's not about them, it's all about you.


Often enough it's because the mother won't tell them.

The Dad gets to plan the ogre


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## Spotthedeaddog

honcho said:


> The famous last words from my ex to me were I don't want your money, just my freedom. Several friends of mine heard similar when there divorce started. It never works out that way.
> 
> If she doesn't want alimony or child support and the final divorce decree goes thru like that start buying lottery tickets to capitalize on your good luck.


Just get it all in writing and pray the judge doesn't just declare it "emotional loss of concern in a time of stress" and ignore what she said and wrote.


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## frustratedman

CynthiaDe said:


> Apparently this is why she is blowing up your phone.
> 
> Eat some ice cream to cool down. lol


I don't know. Maybe it's just because it's been a while or maybe it's the novelty of a new person, but man!!! It felt like the best sex I've ever experienced. Smokin'!!! Then, the next morning... Ummm... Yeah... Again...

How does that old saying go? The best way to get over someone is to get under someone else? Perhaps more applicable for females but you get the point!

It's like I truly couldn't give two $#!ts if my STBX does whatever any more. I tried and tried some more. Time for me to look out for myself and my needs!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Spotthedeaddog

frustratedman said:


> She cries and says she thinks Retrouvaille is a bunch of BS. She brings up resentments from years ago, which we have already been through numerous times. She again tells me that her friendship was inappropriate but nothing physical ever happened and that I make up stories in my head and will never believe her.
> 
> I told her that no matter what I do, she will always view me as being "needy" and she basically agreed with that. However, for the last 6 months, I have relied on her for next to nothing and I told her that.
> 
> She basically said no matter what she wants to be done.
> 
> We talked about the impending divorce. She has stated several times that she wants absolutely nothing from me. She wants me to be successful and she wants us to be good co-parents. She cried a lot about the kids.


Translation: She screwed up and doesn't want to be responsible for fixing the problem or face the truth of it being her fault, and anything would be preferrable so she will run away from everything and not look back in order to avoid dealing with it.


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## frustratedman

spotthedeaddog said:


> Translation: She screwed up and doesn't want to be responsible for fixing the problem or face the truth of it being her fault, and anything would be preferrable so she will run away from everything and not look back in order to avoid dealing with it.


Can you say PROJECTION?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

The new girl lives 4 hours away. We've been texting. I was going to end communication so no one gets hurt, so I finally called her. We talked for 30 minutes and by the end of the conversation, I was like "yeah we can keep talking." She is SO sweet. She's my age, divorced and also has a 16 year old son. She's fully aware of my situation and says we can go as slow as we need to. I like her a lot and neither of us has any expectations. This is awesome, but I am kind of afraid that I'm falling for her...

Things are going well with the STBX. It's just so cool that she wants nothing from me. I'm having my 16 year old's first car fixed up. The bill is $1K. My STBX wants to pay half. I even told her $400 is fine and she's like "nope." So I said that's fine by me... It's almost like a pride thing. Cool I guess!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chuck71

I don't think you are falling for her.... you're just thrilled you got it wet for first time in awhile.

Been there.....


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## Cynthia

Oh dear! Too soon to fall for anyone, but easy to do when a broken heart is not yet mended.


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## frustratedman

CynthiaDe said:


> Oh dear! Too soon to fall for anyone, but easy to do when a broken heart is not yet mended.


The weird part is that I know it and just can't let go. She's just too damn sweet and we have a lot in common. I realize rebound relationships never work... It's messed up.

She says things like "I know you need to take it slow and you're worth waiting for." I have laid down the take it or leave it stance but she makes it tough.

She seems down to earth, generous, direct and just overall sweet as pie. She loves music and the fact that I play.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

The heart wants what it wants. If you want this woman, just go in with the knowledge that it will be messy if and when it ends.


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## happyman64

> I realize rebound relationships never work... It's messed up.


It is only a rebound relationship if you let it become a rebound relationship.

Take your time. Make sure she takes her time.

And get to know each other......

Time is on your side. Use it well.

And for God's sake have fun.

HM


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## frustratedman

happyman64 said:


> It is only a rebound relationship if you let it become a rebound relationship.
> 
> Take your time. Make sure she takes her time.
> 
> And get to know each other......
> 
> Time is on your side. Use it well.
> 
> And for God's sake have fun.
> 
> HM


You're right. I am having fun talking and texting with her. I totally want to see her but it's not possible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

So, time for an update!

We rent our home and the lease expires at the end of July. I've contacted a mortgage company and I surprisingly qualify for a HUGE mortgage (way too much, frankly).

I've finally contacted a lawyer and for $1500 (through a work referral discount), I can get the whole thing done in about a month to two months.

New girl lives 4 hours away but is coming near where I live for work this coming weekend and staying at a hotel. Time for a little fun this weekend.

I can TRULY now say that even if my STXB begged for me back, I wouldn't take her back.

Overall, minus some financial bumps, things are FANTASTIC!

Thanks again, TAM community. It took me a long time to get where I am today and the journey isn't over, but major progress is being made.

I think when this is said and done, I'll actually thank my STBX.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

Update on the big D:

My attorney and I have reviewed the divorce decree my STBX and her attorney drew up. Bottom line, for all the nay sayers out there, she wants NOTHING from me. I realize this is a rare situation, but I just knew it.

I'm still going through ups and downs, as expected. I'm trying to stay focused on the kids and myself. I can't wait until I can move out of our rented home; there are too many memories. 

Meanwhile, STBX is TOTALLY relying on mommy. They are apparently trying to sell her mom's townhouse and then buy a new home together.

If I can pull this off, which I believe I can, one day I'll drink a beer on my porch/deck and think to myself "I'm so happy living life 2.0."

Every time I talk to my folks about how things are going, my mom points out that, no matter what could have happened, our relationship was doomed because the trust had been broken multiple times. This is a very valid point.

I'm still talking to the new girl. We've seen each other around 3 times in 2 months. That definitely eases the pain, but I don't think I'm even remotely close to ready for a serious relationship. Hell - I'm not even divorced yet. I have been totally up front with the new girl.

I can't believe how well things are going. Cheers!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Archangel2

Frustrated - How are your sons doing. Have they made their peace with your impending divorce?


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## frustratedman

Archangel2 said:


> Frustrated - How are your sons doing. Have they made their peace with your impending divorce?


My youngest cried his little heart out when we told the kids. The oldest was very angry. I'd say over the past 3 months, they're accepting it. They both have many friends who have parents that are divorced. It's a sad fact in the U.S. that 50% of marriages end in divorce. They know we both love them and will always be there for them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

That's the worst part of this situation... The kids don't deserve this whatsoever. They're the victims. It will affect them for the rest of their lives.

I can't change the past. I can only move forward.

I still have't told either of them about their mother's "inappropriate friendship," at least not at this time. If I do, it will definitely be when the divorce is signed and sealed.

My STBX is being very amicable and I'd like to keep it that way.

My oldest might actually live with me, which was surprising. Wouldn't that be sweet justice if she had to pay me child support? I don't think it's in the cards, but I guess you never know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## becareful

I haven't read much of your thread, so did she took the affair physical?


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## frustratedman

becareful said:


> I haven't read much of your thread, so did she took the affair physical?


It's a long read lol. She claims no, but I'll never know. She 100% admittedly disrespected me though. Long story short, confirmed EA in summer 2011. Did counselling. She agreed to only talk to co-worker for business only. I had suspicions. Summer of 2015 I found a message from April of 2014. Here's the transcript, ver batim:

Her: i knew it all along.
Him: You knew what?
Her: I knew that's the reason we're friends.
Him: I had trouble not wanting or trying to kiss you today.
Her: It was ve

That's what this one particular email (the one and only one she failed to delete) said. By the way, this was at a happy hour that she was never supposed to go to; we had an agreement.

Yeah I know it's not a smoking gun, but we're talking years and years of lies... I'll NEVER FORGET the date of that email, then the next day, we went to Easter at my parents' house and took a "family picture." Disgusting...

There's much more to the story, but you get the point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

Oh yeah, previously she had given me access to her email account. This email was found via spotlight search on iphone in her special "coupon" email account. Clearly decisive lying, knowing it was totally against my wishes and what we agreed upon. Spelling this out sure makes me happy to be done with that chapter of my life...

Yes - I wasn't perfect. I made mistakes. But I was a good father (still am), was always faithful, worked hard for 16 years and tried my best.

I will never look back with regret as far as trying to save my marriage. I tried everything to keep our family together.

I'll end up with a better life. Her? No idea. Some day she will regret her choices, but I'll never know...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## becareful

I think her not asking for any child support or alimony is because of her guilty conscience.


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## honcho

becareful said:


> I think her not asking for any child support or alimony is because of her guilty conscience.


Who cares, guilty conscience or not. If he can get the deal take it and run.


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## frustratedman

The whole thing is really a shame. But, like many others before me, I'll survive and thrive. There are other fish in the sea. I've quickly found that out...

I'm 40 years old. My entire life has changed/is changing. I'm re-inventing myself and doing healthy things that bring me pleasure. I'm hanging with friends and working hard. I'm spending much quality time with my boys. I've re-established relationships with family and realize what a great family I have. I work out and take good care of myself. I still go to counseling once a month.

I'm not gonna lie - it still stings once in a while and many relationships have changed. Holidays will be different. My outlook on life, love, relationships & marriage are different.

But, it's not over... I believe there will be much greatness left in my life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

I think the reasons she isn't trying to eff me over are the following:

1. She is the one who initiated this situation.

2. She does feel some guilt.

3. She has a point to prove - she doesn't think she needs me and has a chip on her shoulder to prove it.

4. It's best for the kids if I don't despise her.

5. I did threaten her boy toy that I was "strongly considering contacting their HR department." This would, worst case scenario, cause them both to lose their jobs. Or, best case scenario, cause extreme discomfort that it's been reported. It would look bad, considering she's a Supervisor.

6. She fears that I will throw her under the bus to our kids and possibly our friends. My good friends and family already know the whole story but not everyone knows the whole truth. "We grew apart," is probably what she's telling people. If I showed my soon to be 17 year old a copy of this email, it would take a long time to forgive her. He holds on to resentments for a long time. He's still angry we moved 5 years ago lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

The new girl sure helps ease the pain. She lives 4 hours away and that's a good thing. We've met up 3 times and had spectacular sex each time. She told me it was the best sex she's ever had. She definitely knows I need to take it slow but I can tell she hints towards the future. It feels good to be wanted. I'd say that's a universal thing. Who doesn't like being desired by someone?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Archangel2

Frustrated - Maybe the karma bus will run her over if she moves in with her OM and all his dangerous faults.


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## frustratedman

Archangel2 said:


> Frustrated - Maybe the karma bus will run her over if she moves in with her OM and all his dangerous faults.


Ok, so I re-read what I posted, Archangel. She's going to buy a house with her mother. It might be a house with a mother in law apartment or something.

She's certainly not moving in with DB, at least as far as I know. If she did that, we'd have some problems.

First of all, it's waaaaaaaay too soon to introduce someone to our kids. We're not even officially divorced. I was thinking I wouldn't personally consider it for a year or two.

Secondly, I'm going to have a real tough time ever seeing this a-hole... ever. It's not like this is some new BF. This is who my wife has been secretly talking to since 2008 at minimum. I will absolutely go nuts if this jerk has any involvement in my boys' lives. I can't even imagine visually seeing him. I never, ever want to see this DB's face and I think she knows that. Do what you want, as will I, but keep this slime ball away from my kids.

If it's a different guy, I think I'll be able to handle it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

More on that... If there is ever a time I will get vindictive, that would be it. I could not tolerate if she introduced him to my kids as a new BF. It's just not right. More like, mom's been texting and who knows what else with this guy since you were 5 years old, you are now 12. He is not new...

Am I being unreasonable? Is that out of line?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## convert

frustratedman said:


> More on that... If there is ever a time I will get vindictive, that would be it. I could not tolerate if she introduced him to my kids as a new BF. It's just not right. More like, mom's been texting and who knows what else with this guy since you were 5 years old, you are now 12. He is not new...
> 
> Am I being unreasonable? Is that out of line?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No you are not being unreasonable or out of line.

I would probably tell them as soon as the ink (not even dry) on the D papers.


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## Cynthia

You are not unreasonable, but you cannot control what others do. This would have to be part of the parenting plan for you to to have any control over the situation.


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## Chuck71

frustratedman said:


> 5. I did threaten her boy toy that I was "strongly considering contacting their HR department." This would, worst case scenario, cause them both to lose their jobs. Or, best case scenario, cause extreme discomfort that it's been reported. It would look bad, considering she's a Supervisor.


If she brings him around the kids..... would you consider this..... after D is final?


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## Lostinthought61

Frustrated, 

just curious, does your soon to be ex know about your friend ? and how is she feel about that...as in jealous?


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## Rubix Cubed

frustratedman said:


> 5. I did threaten her boy toy that I was "strongly considering contacting their HR department." This would, worst case scenario, cause them both to lose their jobs. Or, best case scenario, cause extreme discomfort that it's been reported. It would look bad, considering she's a Supervisor.
> 
> 6. She fears that I will throw her under the bus to our kids and possibly our friends. My good friends and family already know the whole story but not everyone knows the whole truth. "We grew apart," is probably what she's telling people. If I showed my soon to be 17 year old a copy of this email, it would take a long time to forgive her. He holds on to resentments for a long time. He's still angry we moved 5 years ago lol.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 If it was me ,Once everything is settled and done , both of these (5&6) would come to fruition. Not so much as revenge, but as consequences.


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## frustratedman

Xenote said:


> Frustrated,
> 
> just curious, does your soon to be ex know about your friend ? and how is she feel about that...as in jealous?


She has no idea. We no longer talk about anything, unless it involves the kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

Chuck71 said:


> If she brings him around the kids..... would you consider this..... after D is final?


Yes - I would consider it. Believe me, my hatred of this guy is strong. However, I also realize that it's ultimately my "wife" who let this happen...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chuck71

frustratedman said:


> Yes - I would consider it. Believe me, my hatred of this guy is strong. However, I also realize that it's ultimately my "wife" who let this happen...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You can't control who your STBX brings around your kids. This is a common topic in many threads.

I'm in the majority camp of don't intro the kids to POSOM / POSOW, it's just morally wrong.

Yet we then would be asking a morality action out of someone.... who cheated..... that's like asking a fat cat CEO of

a bank to lecture a class on ethics.

Maybe you can bargain this with her.... she is being amicable. Just ask her not to.... she will understand why.

Doesn't mean she will comply..... just don't do it until the D is final. If she respects your concern and 

does not introduce the POSOM..... for extended time..... don't expose her at work.

Always remember Yoda from The Empire Strikes Back......

Fear leads to Hate
Hate leads to Anger
Anger leads to the Dark Side


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## frustratedman

Chuck71 said:


> You can't control who your STBX brings around your kids. This is a common topic in many threads.
> 
> I'm in the majority camp of don't intro the kids to POSOM / POSOW, it's just morally wrong.
> 
> Yet we then would be asking a morality action out of someone.... who cheated..... that's like asking a fat cat CEO of
> 
> a bank to lecture a class on ethics.
> 
> Maybe you can bargain this with her.... she is being amicable. Just ask her not to.... she will understand why.
> 
> Doesn't mean she will comply..... just don't do it until the D is final. If she respects your concern and
> 
> does not introduce the POSOM..... for extended time..... don't expose her at work.
> 
> Always remember Yoda from The Empire Strikes Back......
> 
> Fear leads to Hate
> Hate leads to Anger
> Anger leads to the Dark Side


I get it... I really do. My STBX will not introduce ANYONE new for a long time, this I already know. It goes without saying for both of us.

I also know I can't control her.

Even if a year passes, if she were to introduce him to my kids, I won't be cool with it. I will NEVER be cool with it.

She apparently likes to live a secretive life full of lies. She can carry on in that dark world. It's all a big facade. Making herself appear so great on the outside while being a disgusting liar on the inside, lying to her entire family and disrespecting all parties involved.

Carry on, I say. But if you, for one moment, try to introduce this POS to my kids, there will be consequences...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

The truth shall set ME free. My older kid will despise her and him, guaranteed. The youngest one will not be happy either. She knows this deep down inside. So, I believe this will never happen. She knows what kind of person she has been...

Again, I go back to "you've created this world, now live in it."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Archangel2

frustratedman said:


> More on that... If there is ever a time I will get vindictive, that would be it. I could not tolerate if she introduced him to my kids as a new BF. It's just not right. More like, mom's been texting and who knows what else with this guy since you were 5 years old, you are now 12. He is not new...
> 
> Am I being unreasonable? Is that out of line?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, you are not unreasonable. Having the ability to reveal the truth about her shady activities is a great disinfectant. It's nice to know that having that information in your back pocket will give you peace of mind in the long run.


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## turnera

frustratedman said:


> The truth shall set ME free. My older kid will despise her and him, guaranteed. The youngest one will not be happy either. She knows this deep down inside. So, I believe this will never happen. She knows what kind of person she has been...
> 
> Again, I go back to "you've created this world, now live in it."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's what exposure is for.


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## Chuck71

100% amicable Ds are as common as someone dropping a $100 bill on the street and someone handing it

back to you. But it can happen...... "wiggle easy until your head is out of the lion's mouth"

You have EVERY right to be mad as heII...... I was during my D. But I knew.... in the end.... she would

realize her mistake. She did. Small consolation compared to putting you through misery for years.

25 years ago this past January.... 1st love and I split. She has told me time and again she always wished we

would have never ended things. I went through some major pain when she left.... couple months.

Flushed it out over next couple months..... she's spent 25 years. Consolation for me.... no... more a validation

I got off easy. Same thing can happen to you. When you try every single way to keep the R in tact and it still

goes under, you can hold your head high. You left everything on the field.

If your 17 y / o son does not want to meet this schitbag..... he won't. If he is shacking up with her,

bet the farm he will stop going to his mom's for awhile.

Karma has to be based in some mathematical form..... it just always connects the pieces to who needs ran over.


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## frustratedman

turnera said:


> That's what exposure is for.


This is true, but had I exposed, as many here recommended, I KNOW things would be a lot more ugly AND expensive. Right now, I'm smooth sailing. I want to keep this good thing going. 

When I talked to my attorney, I loosely/theoretically brought this work exposure up. He told me what I figured he'd tell me - you don't want to shoot yourself in the foot. I agree. It's best to let this divorce get finalized at this point. 

That's why I've done things that have felt best for my situation. My decisions have been very calculated. Some day the rewards will be reaped...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

To elaborate on the "don't shoot yourself in the foot," if she lost her job, that means she would be unemployed and most likely be awarded full custody/child support. It also means she has the potential to really throw me under the bus and say I'm not fit to be a father, I'm abusive, etc. Ultimately, it means the gloves are off. Then, everyone loses, including my kids and me!

I would need to spend way more defending myself and it could really spiral out of control quickly.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## honcho

Chuck71 said:


> 100% amicable Ds are as common as someone dropping a $100 bill on the street and someone handing it


I have heard rumors that some people fight during divorce, I wouldn't know haha!

Frustrated what the two of you are doing now is your own version of the cold war, your keeping her secrets and she is getting her "freedom". Your getting a sweetheart deal financially right now. Both of you can go nuclear. 

As soon as the divorce is final, all bets really are off. I know you think she won't expose kids to other men but I doubt she will stand behind that and most divorced couples this becomes an issue. Legally you have no way to enforce it.


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## frustratedman

honcho said:


> I have heard rumors that some people fight during divorce, I wouldn't know haha!
> 
> Frustrated what the two of you are doing now is your own version of the cold war, your keeping her secrets and she is getting her "freedom". Your getting a sweetheart deal financially right now. Both of you can go nuclear.
> 
> As soon as the divorce is final, all bets really are off. I know you think she won't expose kids to other men but I doubt she will stand behind that and most divorced couples this becomes an issue. Legally you have no way to enforce it.


I get that I have no way of preventing it. But, the nuke in my pocket is MUCH more dangerous than hers.

What's going to happen is this divorce is going to go through with no problems. This is already VERY evident. She's got about 20 X the debt I've got (student loan). I've reviewed the decree many times, so has my lawyer. There is zero funny business.

So, that's going to happen - mark my words.

After that, I know her and I truly doubt she will ever expose my kids, but I also know that people change, so it's possible. If she is stupid enough to pull a shenanigan like that, I could drop the bomb at any point. My oldest son would undoubtedly be raging angry. That would have a tremendously negative impact on their relationship.

What could she do to me? Hmmmm... Try to change child support. She could tell my kids "your dad smokes weed," which is true - I do partake once in a while. The oldest wouldn't care - I've actually busted him with it. Neither kid knows that I do, as I never do it around them, by the way.

What else could she do? Oh yeah - not a damn thing!

This is where the whole "don't use your kids as pawns," argument arises. It causes a dilemma. I wouldn't be using them as pawns, but my intentions would be retaliatory...

In summary, step one is getting through the divorce unscathed. Step two is obtaining housing. Step 3 is getting certified so I can make more dough and be an even better provider than I am currently.

The sad part? I made $16k more in 2015 than I did in 2014. She's also making more than she used to. If none of this BS was happening, we'd finally be in a good financial situation. That's a goal that we've had for a long time because we started life with kids quite young.

Oh well. That's how she goes, I guess!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

Chuck71 said:


> 100% amicable Ds are as common as someone dropping a $100 bill on the street and someone handing it
> 
> back to you. But it can happen...... "wiggle easy until your head is out of the lion's mouth"
> 
> You have EVERY right to be mad as heII...... I was during my D. But I knew.... in the end.... she would
> 
> realize her mistake. She did. Small consolation compared to putting you through misery for years.
> 
> 25 years ago this past January.... 1st love and I split. She has told me time and again she always wished we
> 
> would have never ended things. I went through some major pain when she left.... couple months.
> 
> Flushed it out over next couple months..... she's spent 25 years. Consolation for me.... no... more a validation
> 
> I got off easy. Same thing can happen to you. When you try every single way to keep the R in tact and it still
> 
> goes under, you can hold your head high. You left everything on the field.
> 
> If your 17 y / o son does not want to meet this schitbag..... he won't. If he is shacking up with her,
> 
> bet the farm he will stop going to his mom's for awhile.
> 
> Karma has to be based in some mathematical form..... it just always connects the pieces to who needs ran over.


Chuck - as always, good to hear you chime in. Your story gives me some perspective. All my friends tell me that one day, she will regret this, big time. Unfortunately, I'll never hear about it, is my guess.

We have 25 years of memories that are untouchable. They've all been temporarily washed away, but they will always be there.

Now, I hope she finds the happiness she was lacking before. I admit that I did change for the worse when this whole EA was discovered. I tried and tried to get past the thoughts but DEEP DOWN, MY GUT WAS TELLING ME SOMETHING ISN'T RIGHT. Damn it - my gut didn't lie.

Also, the whole hair issue was magnified even more with the insecurity of my wife's lies coming to light.

You're right - I gave it my all to try to keep our marriage intact, but the truth is, it couldn't have been the same after the betrayal. That was the turning point. August 4, 2011, on D-Day 1.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Satya

I hope you got your STBX's offer in writing.


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## frustratedman

Satya said:


> I hope you got your STBX's offer in writing.


She is the petitioner, so yes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## becareful

Chuck71 said:


> 100% amicable Ds are as common as someone dropping a $100 bill on the street and someone handing it
> 
> back to you. But it can happen...... "wiggle easy until your head is out of the lion's mouth"
> 
> You have EVERY right to be mad as heII...... I was during my D. But I knew.... in the end.... she would
> 
> realize her mistake. She did. Small consolation compared to putting you through misery for years.
> 
> 25 years ago this past January.... 1st love and I split. She has told me time and again she always wished we
> 
> would have never ended things. I went through some major pain when she left.... couple months.
> 
> Flushed it out over next couple months..... she's spent 25 years. Consolation for me.... no... more a validation
> 
> I got off easy. Same thing can happen to you. When you try every single way to keep the R in tact and it still
> 
> goes under, you can hold your head high. You left everything on the field.
> 
> If your 17 y / o son does not want to meet this schitbag..... he won't. If he is shacking up with her,
> 
> bet the farm he will stop going to his mom's for awhile.
> 
> Karma has to be based in some mathematical form..... it just always connects the pieces to who needs ran over.


25 years and she can't let you go? You're still in contact? How has her life been, and yours?


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## frustratedman

Well... It's official. I'm divorced. Done deal. No court appearance needed, our lawyers e-filed it.

I texted her today, saying "Whoa, so I guess we're officially divorced." She replied with something like, "I know it's shocking. If I could do it over and change 100 things, I would. In the future, I hope to continue to have positive impacts on both our childrens' and each others' lives, peacefully." I agreed with the future statement and just reflected on the first part. It's like yes - you had many chances to fix a major part of what was wrong - you chose not to. You continued lying for years upon years...

Even though I knew it was coming, it still hit me like a ton of bricks. There was mixed emotions - sadness, happiness, feelings of excitement, scared, anxious, etc. I felt like the last 17 years just flashed before my eyes.

She did what I KNEW she would do. She didn't come after me for a damn thing. I almost feel sorry for her, in a way. She keeps all her debt, I keep all mine. She's got way more debt than me. She doesn't want any of my retirement money, which will be worth a fair amount when it comes. NOT ONE THING. People can't believe it, but it's the absolute truth. Sometimes I can't believe it myself.

I'm meeting up with my new female friend on Saturday. I don't give a $#!t what XW does, with the exception of bringing POS in front of my kids. I know that probably won't happen. If it does, it will be years from now. Plus, she knows better. I will, undoubtedly disclose her "indescresion," to my kids if she dares...

Anyhow, I don't know if many will read this or if anyone cares. I'm not sure if I'll post more or not. But, again, thanks for all your support and for being an incredible resource, support system, sounding board, advice line, etc. TAM CWI is a very sad place to end up but it feels good to know that your not alone.

People have been unfaithful since the advent of time and will be forever. I guess it's one of the many dark elements of this thing called life. However, we must remember that there are also many incredible and positive aspects as well.

I will have many great memories of what used to be my family. I never thought things would end up like they did. It's very heart wrenching. But, I'm going to do my best to choose happiness and put my best foot forward.

Thanks again!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Archangel2

Frustrated - Sorry things worked out the way they did. I really thought Retrouvaille would have helped, but her lack of commitment to the process showed her true colors. Still very disappointing for a supposed goody two shoes. I hope your new beginnings will drown out the pain of the last few years. I hope you can help others on these forums with what you learned. Take care.


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## turnera

Focus on your kids. That's all that matters.


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## frustratedman

I'm definitely focused on the kids, by the way!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## drifter777

Congratulations on another big step forward! It's all about healing & finding peace so you can be the person you are instead of just another disheartened betrayed husband. Good luck!


----------



## TaDor

frustratedman said:


> I get that I have no way of preventing it. But, the nuke in my pocket is MUCH more dangerous than hers.
> 
> What's going to happen is this divorce is going to go through with no problems. This is already VERY evident. She's got about 20 X the debt I've got (student loan). I've reviewed the decree many times, so has my lawyer. There is zero funny business.
> 
> The sad part? I made $16k more in 2015 than I did in 2014. She's also making more than she used to. If none of this BS was happening, we'd finally be in a good financial situation. That's a goal that we've had for a long time because we started life with kids quite young. Oh well. That's how she goes, I guess!


Yeah, same here - when my idiotic XWW started this drama with PA/EA - it has cost us THOUSANDS of dollars. Where I am with my business is 5 months behind! Because of lost work, wasted time, dealing with police, dealing with court - lets see, since 2016 started - I've been to the court houses and filings about 16 times, I have at least 4 more to deal with in the coming months.

All so she could be "HAPPY" with her new freedom with her boy-toy. WTF!

I know one thing for sure, she spends more time thinking about the POSOM than our son. She calls to talk to him when we're not available and complains about it. If you wanted a relationship with YOUR CHILD - then you work on your marriage! You try for the sake of the child you wanted to bring into this world!



> All my friends tell me that one day, she will regret this, big time. Unfortunately, I'll never hear about it, is my guess.


 Since you have kids, you'll hear something. I'm forever attached to my EX.
Anyway with half a brain knows she WILL regret what she has done to us. Even a previous EX of mine warned her. Some of HER friends have warned her what she was going to lose for her so she could be happy with her new life.
I have our son, I'm responsible. She will always be the one that CHEATED on her family and ran away from her problems rather than working on fixing them. Eventually, some day their special LOVE will crumble when that honeymoon fog is gone.

I warned her that our son WILL HATE her someday, when he asks what happened. It will hurt him too, but he will know I gave our family a shot and she took a dump on me and took a dump on him. She was willing to hurt our son for her selfish needs.


A special note, I am not venting. 

Congrats on your step into your new freedom! I've got women throwing themselves at me. One thing is for certain, I will NEVER be an "OM" - unless some woman lies to me about being married and I will out her out!


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## Chuck71

I'm sorry things did not turn out as you wanted them to. I can

completely relate to your current emotion. I wanted mine to end

due to the fact I knew it had to. But it still hurt like heII. The night

before... especially so. Sometimes doing the right thing tends to

hurt you more but.... in the long count... it is for the best.

The night before D, I was staying in one of my duplexes.... the 

one we lived in until 2005, the one we were M in... I walked

past the room that contained our marital bed.... I stayed at

a friend's house that night. After the D final that morning, I took 

UG to my fav Italian bistro later that evening. You're a music buff....

Poison sums it up perfectly here (no it's not the Every Rose...Thorn)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOyleR-jQGk


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## Chuck71

becareful said:


> 25 years and she can't let you go? You're still in contact? How has her life been, and yours?


If I could sum it up in a couple paragraphs..... I would here.

My "Crossroads II" thread goes into a lot of detail....

In the thread she is referred to as 1st love or MM. Skip to

about October '13. But most is from late '14 to mid '15.


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## frustratedman

Today at work, I ran into xww's cousin while I was on my lunch break. I hadn't seen him for a while (since the divorce). He said "How are are you holding up? Your divorce came out of left field. I thought you guys were the Cleavers. Was this a sudden thing or years of buildup?" I replied that it was the latter.

He then went on to say that my ex had texted him last Friday, saying something like "come out and have drinks, my divorce is finalized!"

The friggin' divorce celebration? Really? Pfffft! I admit it stung a little but eff it.

Meanwhile, the home search and logistics are under pressure... I need to find a home (townhome most likely) by mid June. It's tough because where I live happens to be really expensive! I do have a crappy back up plan if it doesn't work... The dreaded "live at bachelor buddy's place," which is 30 minutes away so it would mess with me getting to be with the kids. Uggggh... Here's hopin'!

.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## becareful

OP,

I got frustrated at how poorly you went about trying to save your marriage, basically by rug sweeping and not giving her any consequence at all for her affair. You could have exposed her affair to her employer but you didn't due to financial reason, which basically meant you cared more about the financial impact than you did about getting your wife back. You had many opportunities to knock her out of her fog but you didn't. You could have exposed the affair to your kids, who are old enough to understand and imo, would have appreciated transparency and honesty from you, but you rationalized not telling them to protect them. Isn't that what WSs use to justify not telling their BSs about their affairs, to protect them?

Maybe I'm not looking at the whole picture correctly because I haven't read this entire thread due to the first post causing me to trigger that a wife would throw her entire marriage away for a Hollywood type romantic marriage proposal. If you can take a step back and critically evaluate yourself, how would you rate yourself as a husband and father? Why does your XW seem to have such animosity towards you? I got that from the divorce celebration text.

You initially wanted to save the marriage but eventually threw in the towel and slept with a woman, too. What kind of a person was your wife? Was she kind or was she a raging b*tch? Is she still with the OM now? Do your children know what happened at this time?

If she came back and begged for another chance, would you say yes or tell her to hit the road?


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## frustratedman

Whoah - lots in the above post! Let's see if I can address all the questions.

I understand how someone on this site might not like how I handled the entire situation. That's why I titled the thread "let the bashing begin."

I agree it may not have been handled in a fashion that conforms with the way most people on this site recommend.

I guess I look at it like this. We went to counselling upon my first discovery of the EA. I wasn't aware of TAM at that point, for whatever that's worth. At that point, I assumed that she would break things off but as time passed, I could feel something wasn't right. It turns out I was right.

I don't believe either telling her employer or my children about the "inappropriate friendship" would have changed much or knocked her out of the fog. She was done with me long ago!

I didn't sleep with anyone until it was 100% that we were divorcing.

What kind of husband/father was I? She has stated many times that I was/am an excellent father. Obviously, not a perfect husband, In her mind! I had my battles, particularly with my hair loss. That affected my confidence big time. But, I tried my best. I was always a good provider, she knew I loved her. I think I put her too high on a pedestal and that worked against me.

She wasn't a "raging b!tch" and used to be kind. I don't know if she is in a relationship with POSOM. I haven't told my kids. I'm still in the camp that I, personally, want my kids to love their mom. If I were to tell them, they would definitely "side" with me and probably be quite angry with her. People would likely consider that to be "using my children as pawns," etc.

Would I ever take her back? Damn - I honestly have to say, for starters, that's 99% not ever going to happen. But if she did come crawling back, it would take a LOT for me to ever consider taking her back. The trust has been destroyed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## becareful

Thanks for the response! If she was kind at one time, then why was she done with you long ago? I think she took her debts during the divorce to assuage her guilt. Even now, I would have exposed her to her employer at the very least. She got away with an amicable divorce so she could bang the OM while you and your children are shattered. No consequence, at least until the karma bus run her over.

Forgot to add: what do you think of her now? Do you still miss her or think about her? She seems quite happy being divorced from you. What kind of a woman is that...


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## frustratedman

Although I've thought about notifying her employer, I don't see how it would help at this point. She can have her life, live with her mommy (pathetic, IMHO), go on trips to Mexico, etc. I've had it. She can see how green the grass is! Karma will get her. Many of my friends say that she will one day regret her choice. She had a lot of time to think and make a calculated decision. Frankly, I no longer give a $h!t who she bangs. I've wasted too much energy caring! But yes, this newest post about her divorce celebration did sting a bit, admittedly!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

What kind of woman is she now? With me, it's strictly business/kids. I just chalk it up to "WHATEVER!" I don't deserve to be disrespected and lied to.

There again, if she introduces POSOM to my kids, I'm going to have a problem with that and may expose at that point. I've got undeniable proof!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## becareful

Exposure is not intended to help anything but OM and her need to face some consequence for the destruction they've left in their wake. I hate what her betrayal has done to your older son.

As an aside, I have a nephew who is about your younger son's age, and believe me, they know a lot more than you think. Adult matters, etc.


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## Be smart

You should feel happy because she didnt ruin you in your Divorce my friend. 

If you still think she never had Affair with this co-worker you are wrong. This whole thing and all your problems are because of her relationship with him. It went for a long 5-6 years,she defended him,she put him in the first place,she hates your actions,your taste in music and everything else you do,she compared you with him all the time...

The only thing you should do is to tell your kids about her Affair. 

Stay strong.


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## TX-SC

I just finished reading through your thread. Honestly, I think you handled this about as well as could be expected. Some people may bash you for not being alpha enough, but each of us has to deal with things in our own way. If that's not your personality, then you can't really do much about it. 

I'm happy for you that the divorce went well and you are moving on with your life. Keep your head up brother! 

I'm 20 years happily married, no divorce in sight. But, I do want to say that you remind me of myself quite a bit. I am losing my hair, I play guitar and banjo, enjoy bluegrass, folk, rock, etc. and my wife doesn't appreciate my music. She doesn't threaten to hit me with my guitar, but she shows zero interest in it. For a musician, or any artist really, our music means a lot to us. To have a spouse show no interest is tough. 

If you ever make it down to east Texas, send me a PM and we'll jam!


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## Chuck71

frustratedman said:


> Today at work, I ran into xww's cousin while I was on my lunch break. I hadn't seen him for a while (since the divorce). He said "How are are you holding up? Your divorce came out of left field. I thought you guys were the Cleavers. Was this a sudden thing or years of buildup?" I replied that it was the latter.
> 
> *He then went on to say that my ex had texted him last Friday, saying something like "come out and have drinks, my divorce is finalized!"
> 
> The friggin' divorce celebration? Really? Pfffft! I admit it stung a little but eff it.*
> 
> Meanwhile, the home search and logistics are under pressure... I need to find a home (townhome most likely) by mid June. It's tough because where I live happens to be really expensive! I do have a crappy back up plan if it doesn't work... The dreaded "live at bachelor buddy's place," which is 30 minutes away so it would mess with me getting to be with the kids. Uggggh... Here's hopin'!
> 
> .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What she does after the D is NO concern of yours....... Unless it involves the kids.

If she decides to post an ad on CL offering it to anyone.... NO concern of yours.... unless kids are afflicted


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## frustratedman

Be smart said:


> You should feel happy because she didnt ruin you in your Divorce my friend.
> 
> If you still think she never had Affair with this co-worker you are wrong. This whole thing and all your problems are because of her relationship with him. It went for a long 5-6 years,she defended him,she put him in the first place,she hates your actions,your taste in music and everything else you do,she compared you with him all the time...
> 
> The only thing you should do is to tell your kids about her Affair.
> 
> Stay strong.


Thanks much for the kind words. I will not tell my kids right now but it may happen in the future.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

TX-SC said:


> I just finished reading through your thread. Honestly, I think you handled this about as well as could be expected. Some people may bash you for not being alpha enough, but each of us has to deal with things in our own way. If that's not your personality, then you can't really do much about it.
> 
> I'm happy for you that the divorce went well and you are moving on with your life. Keep your head up brother!
> 
> I'm 20 years happily married, no divorce in sight. But, I do want to say that you remind me of myself quite a bit. I am losing my hair, I play guitar and banjo, enjoy bluegrass, folk, rock, etc. and my wife doesn't appreciate my music. She doesn't threaten to hit me with my guitar, but she shows zero interest in it. For a musician, or any artist really, our music means a lot to us. To have a spouse show no interest is tough.
> 
> If you ever make it down to east Texas, send me a PM and we'll jam!


Thanks much! I'm curious what brought you to CPI in the first place if you're happily married.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TX-SC

frustratedman said:


> Thanks much! I'm curious what brought you to CPI in the first place if you're happily married.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mostly I hang out on other parts of the TAM forum, but the more interesting threads are in CWI! I was cheated on by my fiancée years ago. It resulted in me calling off the wedding and breaking up with her. It was tough and honestly one of the hardest things I've been through. But I did make it through it. We already had the venue and most of the stuff ordered. Oh well... A year later I met the girl that would become my wife. Our marriage is good. I'm not the cheating type anyway, but having gone through what I did, plus reading stories here, it helps keep me in line. I won't even THINK about cheating on my wife. I wouldn't wish that pain on anyone.


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## frustratedman

Hello TAMers, I hope things are well! Time for updates.

I'm still involved with the same girl via a long distance relationship that is sort of friends with benefits. We see each other about once a month and have lots of fun together. I've been upfront and honest. She knows that I've got to take it slow and we're not "public," at this time.

I'm really close to closing on a townhouse, which is excellent. Here's hopin'!

So I have a female former classmate/friend who was posting on fb about her divorce. I chatted a little with her on fb just to touch base and kind of just let her know that I had just gone through divorce as well.

We talked about getting together for a concert or something. I figured it would be good to do something different and out of my comfort zone. Last night we met up. The concert itself was great! We talked a little about our lives and divorces and what she said ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTED me!

So it was her and her husband living with their kids and five years ago they let one of his friends be a roommate (immediate red flag). I had seen all three of them at our class reunion 2 years ago.

She told me that she had an affair with the roommate. It apparently went on for FOUR YEARS UNDER THE ROOF HE WAS PAYING FOR!!! I was kind of stunned and immediately lost nearly ALL RESPECT for her. She said they were pretty amicable and then "he turned."

I just thought to myself, yeah I can see why he turned. She said that when it all blew up, the roommate told the husband "oh yeah and I've been sticking my d!ck inside your wife for four years."

I nearly vomitted in my mouth a little. I think if that was me, there's a damn good chance I'd be in jail right now because I probably would have done something out of control.

It felt like she was looking for sympathy because their marriage had lost it's spark and become sexless. I had no sympathy for her.

I'm certainly glad I didn't share too much about my divorce. This was WAY too close to home for me!

Anyhow, the whole situation made me think of my new female friend and made me think that I really am beginning to like her more and more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

Yep. That was disgusting, wasn't it? Yikes. What a real choice person she is.

Mind you, you dodged a bullet with her! :woohoo:


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## frustratedman

As a friend who likes cheesey jokes once said, "I wouldn't touch her with a 10 foot pole... or a 20 foot German."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cynthia

What a clueless, cruel woman. May she reap a bountiful harvest of what she has sown.


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## frustratedman

CynthiaDe said:


> What a clueless, cruel woman. May she reap a bountiful harvest of what she has sown.


It was awful. She really played the victim card, big time. She said her and her ex didn't have sex for around 6 years. I just wanted to scream at her and tell her that it's no excuse to do what she did. Her fb posts made it seem like she was the one who had been done wrong.

They have 4 kids ranging from 7 to 17. I feel really bad for the kids... and her STBX husband.

Oh yeah I forgot this part! She broke it off with her AP because he was trying to date another girl. So the cheater was kind of getting cheated on. So my classmate found out who the new girl was, hunted her down and told her that he's not who she thinks he is.

So that's that. I have no interest in hanging out with her any more. The whole thing was just awful. She said things about her ex like "he's acting like the dad of the year," etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

frustratedman said:


> It was awful. She really played the victim card, big time. She said her and her ex didn't have sex for around 6 years. I just wanted to scream at her and tell her that it's no excuse to do what she did. Her fb posts made it seem like she was the one who had been done wrong.
> 
> They have 4 kids ranging from 7 to 17. I feel really bad for the kids... and her STBX husband.
> 
> Oh yeah I forgot this part! She broke it off with her AP because he was trying to date another girl. So the cheater was kind of getting cheated on. So my classmate found out who the new girl was, hunted her down and told her that he's not who she thinks he is.
> 
> So that's that. I have no interest in hanging out with her any more. The whole thing was just awful. She said things about her ex like "he's acting like the dad of the year," etc.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You know what you should do? Invite her ex here. :FIREdevil:


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## becareful2

I would have gone off on her and ended the friendship right there.


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## turnera

I'm curious why you didn't tell her how you feel.


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## sokillme

frustratedman said:


> Hello TAMers, I hope things are well! Time for updates.
> 
> I'm still involved with the same girl via a long distance relationship that is sort of friends with benefits. We see each other about once a month and have lots of fun together. I've been upfront and honest. She knows that I've got to take it slow and we're not "public," at this time.
> 
> I'm really close to closing on a townhouse, which is excellent. Here's hopin'!
> 
> So I have a female former classmate/friend who was posting on fb about her divorce. I chatted a little with her on fb just to touch base and kind of just let her know that I had just gone through divorce as well.
> 
> We talked about getting together for a concert or something. I figured it would be good to do something different and out of my comfort zone. Last night we met up. The concert itself was great! We talked a little about our lives and divorces and what she said ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTED me!
> 
> So it was her and her husband living with their kids and five years ago they let one of his friends be a roommate (immediate red flag). I had seen all three of them at our class reunion 2 years ago.
> 
> She told me that she had an affair with the roommate. It apparently went on for FOUR YEARS UNDER THE ROOF HE WAS PAYING FOR!!! I was kind of stunned and immediately lost nearly ALL RESPECT for her. She said they were pretty amicable and then "he turned."
> 
> I just thought to myself, yeah I can see why he turned. She said that when it all blew up, the roommate told the husband "oh yeah and I've been sticking my d!ck inside your wife for four years."
> 
> I nearly vomitted in my mouth a little. I think if that was me, there's a damn good chance I'd be in jail right now because I probably would have done something out of control.
> 
> It felt like she was looking for sympathy because their marriage had lost it's spark and become sexless. I had no sympathy for her.
> 
> I'm certainly glad I didn't share too much about my divorce. This was WAY too close to home for me!
> 
> Anyhow, the whole situation made me think of my new female friend and made me think that I really am beginning to like her more and more.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And you said nothing? People like that need to be told often what monsters they are. Maybe they would want to change.


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## frustratedman

So, maybe I should clarify! I'm not really this girl's good friend or anything like that. I come from a fairly small town; our graduating class maybe had 80. We're FB friends and we used to hang in similar circles 20 years ago.

She had some friends there. I wanted to go off on her but didn't feel it was my place to do so. Deep down, I would like to talk to her husband (who I met a couple years ago). Call it weak sauce or whatever. It wasn't the right time or place to get into it.

I will simply avoid communication with her in the future and I have very little respect for her. She will pay the price for what she did. 

Sounds like he's got a good gig and will be keeping the house. She's being forced to move into her friend's basement.

Just yuck... That is, by far, the most vile affair situation I have ever seen by someone I actually know! I guarantee if I would have known about this prior, I would not have even reached out to begin with!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

I have a tendancy to talk too much and sometimes put my foot in my mouth. I'm glad I didn't disclose how my divorce transpired. It would have been super awkward...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Plan 9 from OS

frustratedman said:


> So it was *her and her husband living with their kids and five years ago they let one of his friends be a roommate *(immediate red flag). I had seen all three of them at our class reunion 2 years ago.
> 
> She told me that she had an affair with the roommate. It apparently went on for FOUR YEARS UNDER THE ROOF HE WAS PAYING FOR!!! I was kind of stunned and immediately lost nearly ALL RESPECT for her. She said they were pretty amicable and then "he turned."
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Can't believe people would be dumb enough to invite friends to live with their families. I guess people fail to understand that people are human...


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## Chuck71

frustratedman said:


> It was awful. She really played the victim card, big time. She said her and her ex didn't have sex for around 6 years. I just wanted to scream at her and tell her that it's no excuse to do what she did. Her fb posts made it seem like she was the one who had been done wrong


Re-writing history 101. Virtually every WS does it, to justify their F'ed up actions.

They have to have an excuse.... if not they can not plant their arse in the victim chair.

As with most people, I have quite a few friends on FB from HS. Maybe 10% never change.

How are your hobbies coming along? The kids?


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## frustratedman

Chuck71 said:


> Re-writing history 101. Virtually every WS does it, to justify their F'ed up actions.
> 
> They have to have an excuse.... if not they can not plant their arse in the victim chair.
> 
> As with most people, I have quite a few friends on FB from HS. Maybe 10% never change.
> 
> How are your hobbies coming along? The kids?


Hey Chuck - thanks for checking in! I hope things are going well for you!

As far as hobbies go, honestly, there's not enough time in the day! 

Right now I'm prepping for the big move. I'm 90% sure I'll be closing within a couple weeks on a beautiful townhome. It has been exhausting. This is the third place I've made an offer on.

Meanwhile, ex is living with her mom. I feel for her but then again I don't. She wanted out, she got out. I'm very excited to be out of the house we rent. The ex and I communicate daily and we even spent several hours together today prepping for the move.

Then there's work.

But I have to say I've embraced summer hard core by taking 11 days off in a row (including weekends, which I have off). It was excellent. I went to my home town for a good 4 days, hanging out with my son, niece and nephew who were camping with my folks, during the day. In the evenings I hung out with my new female friend and stayed at her house. Throw in a wedding and a STELLAR 2 day concert, bam!

My close friends tell me they see me being much more happy now, which is excellent. I've really detatched myself from the ex emotionally. I think of the past and good family memories occasionally but then I just remind myself that the marriage is dead and I will NEVER waste another ounce of energy wondering what my wife is up to again! It actually feels like a boulder has been lifted from my back.

The guitar gets played a couple times a week but I would like to focus on songwriting more than I have been. I'm just too focused on financing my future house, moving, separating furniture, summer stuff with the kids, etc. On a side note, my "kinda sorta" girlfriend has a ukelele. I tried it and it came naturally. She really enjoys hearing me play guitar and sing, which is so refreshing! &#55357;&#56835;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

She's so sweet, but I feel a bit bad that I'm keeing things on the downlow. My kids are doing stellar, but they aren't ready to be introduced to a new person yet. My younger son has even said, "you and mom can never get a GF/BF." The townhome that I'm hopefully moving to is very close to where we live now and won't disrupt the kids' school, etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chuck71

Glad to hear that FM....... really damn glad! There were large parts of my M that I recall fondly.

We had great times... but the person you shared those with is no longer alive. Sometimes people recover

from a D much quicker.... as in my case, my XW and I were "together but alone."

Strange but not odd... your long time friends usually notice your improvement before you do.

There was a guy posting here.... GarryTX I think.... came right before me. He had a GTD thread and

a LaD one. His BSCXW moved in with her mom. I believe I referred to them as Palpatine and Vader.

Check the thread out sometime.


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## frustratedman

Sorry for rambling, but back to the new girl. They say rebound relationships never work. I don't know... Am I settling just because she digs me? Sometimes I feel like I'm leading her on, as far as the future goes. I've been honest and upfront with her though, telling her that I need to go slow.

But, I swear, at least now when we can't see each other much, when we do see each other, the sex is extremely frequent. Like, she wants it constantly, even more than I do. Never thought that would happen.

We do have some common interests and have fun together. She is pretty interesting. I realize that all this stuff is common with a new relationship.

There are some things about her that I kind of think, hmmm... Like she has several guy friends, which is cool - we aren't "officially" committed, but it seems like it's an unspoken agreement. One of the dudes is, what I consider a bit of a loser (sounds like I'm an ass but this dude is like 38 doesn't work, plays video games all day and lives with his parents most of the time). So he apparently had to get away from his folks so she let him crash on her couch for a week. I guess I kind of frown upon or judge that situation, if that makes sense.

I guess I want to keep my standards high, to a degree. Maybe I've somewhat rushed into this relationship, a bit. Hard to say! But, again, she has a ton of positive qualities, so there is that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

What's on your list? 

You know, the list of red flags that you'll end a relationship over?


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## frustratedman

turnera said:


> What's on your list?
> 
> You know, the list of red flags that you'll end a relationship over?


Well, I guess I haven't laid out an actual list, per say...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chuck71

Rebound LTRs can work but not often. You are re-discovering WTH you are NOW... not in 1996.

I drag raced, closed bars at 3AM, went full blast every day.... in 1996. Today I lecture, write novels, am 

drawn to intellectuals. We change. Most people do not like change but it is inevitable.

You and this gal are friends, FWB. Are there any ground rules? Are you and her exclusive?

Can each date others but have no sex? Most FWB settings are never discussed and this brings 

a great deal of hurt feelings. If no boundaries are established... one or both usually get hurt.

If she is sleeping with three others guy, you should be aware of this and vice versa.

But.... yeah... hard to even visit this with her being the first female in a number of years who found you

exciting in the sack. Two words of advice, think with right head.

And a popism "A good understanding is a clear understanding."


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## Chuck71

turnera said:


> What's on your list?
> 
> You know, the list of red flags that you'll end a relationship over?


Glad to see the original Turnera back....


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## becareful2

Is your ex still with the dbag whom she cheated on you with? Has she introduced him to your kids? How's the oldest son coping with his discovery of his mom's infidelity?


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## frustratedman

becareful2 said:


> Is your ex still with the dbag whom she cheated on you with? Has she introduced him to your kids? How's the oldest son coping with his discovery of his mom's infidelity?


Well, for starters, we don't talk about our past relationship or relationship problems. Therefore, I can't say that she technically "cheated," on me. I can, however, with 100% accuracy, say that she lied to me. That is a fact.

Is she "with" him? I honestly have no clue and frankly, I no longer give a single fvck if she is. She will realize what she lost eventually. If she does, she'll never admit to it, nor will I hear about it.

I haven't told my son (either of them) at this point. It's not that I want to reward her for her excellent behavior. It's that I want my kids to love their mom. Will I in the future? I don't know.

I try to stay focused on the positives in my life. I've realized many things in my self growth. I can only control myself and how I react to situations.

If anything, I feel free like I can be myself, do the things I want to do, etc. 

My ex has actually been really cool about many things. For example, we have a one month deposit coming back to us. She's loaning me her half so I can close on my (hopefully) kick @$$, beautiful, new townhouse. Meanwhile, she is 40 and living with her mother.

I honestly feel like she has given me a new, exciting opportunity. It's really weird, right? But I think it's healthy. I now answer to no one but myself.

I have the proof on my phone and in my email, should I ever elect to use it. My kids would NOT BE PLEASED about her actions. This, I know. 

I really feel like the bigger, more mature, loyal person. Someone else deserves my love and it's not her.

My $#!t is together. I've got a lot going on and a woman who adores me. There are others who have shown interest. I used to think I would never have sex again. That was simply the depression and lack of confidence talking.

Why did I lack confidence? Well because my "wife" had shown me a side of her that I never knew existed. Then, after trying to resolve the issue and reconcile, she carried on, only worrying about her selfish needs.

Now, the tables have turned. She still looks pretty on the outside but I know the "real" person and she's ugly and broken on the inside. I think she knows I'm over her and have moved on. It feels great!

There are going to be nay sayers who think I should tell my kids. I get it... I really do. You aren't in my shoes. I appreciate all the responses, advice, etc., but as the cheesey @$$ bon jovi song says, it's my life. I'm 40 and may not be perfect but I know what risk and reward means. What would I gain by making my kids hate my ex? It would only be about vengeance. It wouldn't help anyone or anything.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If she EVER has the nerve to introduce jack hole to my kids, I might have to grab both keys for the nuke and get nasty. I NEVER want to see that DB's face. She knows that. It's never been mentioned, but she knows it...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustratedman

I hope that answers your questions!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chuck71

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera.../57504-wifes-midlife-crisis-what-do-i-do.html


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## frustratedman

Chuck71 said:


> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera.../57504-wifes-midlife-crisis-what-do-i-do.html


Dammit Chuck! I was up untill 2:00 AM reading that thread last night. I'm on page 55 and will finish the rest tonight. Want to see how Gary ends up. I see some parallels with his story and mine. I'm hoping that Gary ends up as good as it appears I will! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

Don't forget he has a LaD thread too. A guy, Zillard, posted on Garry's often.

He has three very deep threads. Many TAM titans posted on those.

In many ways, everyone has the same parallels .... gender irregardless. 

It's hard to tell your own progress in your own threads but it is clear as day when you

start posting more and in more depth on other threads.


----------



## Archangel2

frustratedman said:


> I have the proof on my phone and in my email, should I ever elect to use it. My kids would NOT BE PLEASED about her actions. This, I know...
> ...I've said it before and I'll say it again. If she EVER has the nerve to introduce jack hole to my kids, I might have to grab both keys for the nuke and get nasty. I NEVER want to see that DB's face. She knows that. It's never been mentioned, but she knows it...


Do you also have the condoms you found in the van? >


----------



## frustratedman

No I don't have the one condom. In fairness, the condom situation was far from 100% accurate since it was 3 to 4 years prior to me even knowing about the EA whatsoever.

The 3 coincidences about the back of the SUV were much more compelling...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Archangel2

Frustrated - Hope you are doing well.


----------



## frustratedman

Hi Hi Archangel! Things are excellent! I've had two phenomenal weekends in a row with my... girlfriend? Weird saying that but I'd say it's pretty much true at this point.

Weekend #1: She drove 4 hours to meet me (she's from my home town 4 hours away), we packed my car and went to a smaller music festival. We camped and just had an absolute blast. It's kind of a hippy-ish scene, which is cool, in my book. I'm not a hippy, by definition, but for whatever reason, the music and that whole scene is really fun. It's a regional band that I've been following for nearly 20 years. It was like nothing she's ever experienced but she loved it!

Weekend #2 (this last weekend): She had 2 tickets to a MASSIVE, classic heavy metal band. Her friend couldn't go so she asked me if I could. Since I had been gone the previous weekend, I originally thought it was a no but then I remembered my younger boy had a birthday party Saturday night, so bam - I said yes! I got a nice hotel room, we met up and went to the show, which was in a brand new stadium. We had a blast! 

Coincidentally, we ran into people I knew. It was the first time we had really seen people in the public eye. I introduced her to my friends. They were cool as heck and understanding.

Then, at the end of the show, another of my friends was in the area so he drove our drunk @$$es to the club where we danced all night. Then we headed back to the hotel room.

I have been hiding this relationship from my family in my home town. I finally told my parents who she was, texted them a pic of us, etc. It felt good to let them know who this mystery woman is lol.

I have literally gone from the worst summer of my life in 2015 to the greatest summer I've had in a decade!

I've been "dating" (aka hanging out, doing fun stuff and getting busy) with this girl for 6 months now and in the last couple days I've really looked at our relationship. Bottom line - her personality is excellent. Her attitude is super positive. She adores me, loves hearing me play my guitar and shows interest in every thing I do. 

She's not the hottest girl in the world, but she's got natural exotic beauty (she's Thai). There are things about her (her past, etc.) that I don't know about. But what I do know is that we have so much fun together, her personality is top notch, I'm 40 and don't have to answer to any one. I'm not married to her and have zero intention of getting married any time soon. I've been upfront and honest with her. She's been nothing but sweet to me. I'm going to continue on with her and see where things go.

The night I met her, it was like it was meant to be. She rarely goes out because she works a ton, but just happened to that night since it was her girlfriend's birthday.

In other news, I should be closing on my future home on Labor Day weekend.

My kids are doing EXCELLENT (I check in with them often.

My counselor asked if I actually want to keep going because it doesn't seem necessary.

My relationship with ex is great. We get along fine, don't fight, don't ask each other questions and I believe we are doing a stellar job co-parenting. 

Overall, things couldn't be going better. Glad you asked!

I hope life is treating you well also! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

Sounds similar to my reflection of Fall 2012... DDay, D and Fall 2013... major par excellente 

Sad (well not really) we didn't make it to Fall 2014. Certain people were meant to come into

your life for a reason and for an abbreviated time. Enjoy the time.

Judging by your post, I guess it is safe to assume you are getting sex regular for the first time

in a long time 8>)


----------



## bandit.45

I will not marry again...

I will not marry again...

I will not marry again...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Sammy64

bandit.45 said:


> I will not marry again...
> 
> I will not marry again...
> 
> I will not marry again...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



And again...

I will not marry again...

I will not marry again...

I will not marry again...


----------



## frustratedman

Yes, it's not likely I will get married again!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frustratedman

Chuck71 said:


> Sounds similar to my reflection of Fall 2012... DDay, D and Fall 2013... major par excellente
> 
> Sad (well not really) we didn't make it to Fall 2014. Certain people were meant to come into
> 
> your life for a reason and for an abbreviated time. Enjoy the time.
> 
> Judging by your post, I guess it is safe to assume you are getting sex regular for the first time
> 
> in a long time 8>)


Well I only see her a couple times a month, so it's not "regular," per say. But when we are together, it's non stop lol. I am doing exactly that, just enjoying the time, taking it fairly slow and still staying focused on the most important thing - my kids!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

FM........ hows yousa doin? Vito aska me


----------



## frustratedman

Chuck - it's been a while!

I'm awesome and hanging with my GF for the weekend, so I will post an update tomorrow.

I hope you are well, my friend!


----------



## frustratedman

Ok - so I'm a day late and a dollar short!

So I've been in the LDR for EXACTLY one year to the day. It's still light and a lot of fun. We still see each other around 3 times every couple months, which isn't enough for many, but fine with me. She's showing signs of wanting more but we both kind of are rooted to our homes... She's a 4 hour drive away.

The kids are OK. The older boy is a senior. He doesn't want to meet my GF, but I've mentioned her to him. I respect that and don't press the issue.

The younger boy (8th grade) is doing well. He has gotten angry about the divorce a few times but overall, he's pretty happy and knows that both parents love him (obviously, that goes for both kids).

The ex? I have no idea if she has a boyfriend or if it's the DB from work. She's still living with her mom and struggling financially. This puzzles me. I'm not sure what her bills look like, but she makes no sense to me. She's currently in Mexico, on vacation, with "coworkers," (probably the DB, but also very possibly a couple females). I didn't ask and frankly, I don't give a ****.

Me? I AM A HOMEOWNER! I purchased a beautiful townhouse. Everyone who comes here loves it. It's clean as a whistle and very well taken care of. It feels INCREDIBLE to have worked on home ownership for 7 months and finally got where I need to be. I'm paying off debts. My $hit is together.

I know this is an infidelity forum, so I'll touch on that. I will never know if my ex cheated physically, but I'm pretty damn convinced she did. She sacrificed our whole family for her selfish needs. She UNDOUBTEDLY lied and fully acknowledges that. She is still afraid to ever see my folks again. It's probably out of shame. Our family will never be the same, but the bottom line is that I will never tolerate that kind of BS again. 

Honestly, it feels good to not have that feeling in the pit of my stomach, wondering what she's doing. I answer to no one. My finances are mine alone. No longer do I have to worry about her spending more than we have.

I still think her end goal is to find a rich older guy, just like her aunt. She lives in a fairy tale world. I hope she gets what she wants.

We get along fine and there has been zero fights about anything. 

I can't complain one bit. Life is damn good and getting better as I pay off debts, remenants of our marriage. It's tough and I'm working my @$$ off, doing OT like crazy.

*{Moderator Note: I spelled out the profanity. Please follow forum rules in regards to the profanity filter.

8. Filter Bypass/Obscenity: A profanity filter is in place and any attempts to bypass it are forbidden. You MAY type words that are filtered, as long as they are not abusive towards other quests or violate any other rules; however, you must allow the filter to do its job. Do NOT try to filter the word yourself and do not try to use creative spelling to bypass the profanity filter. Also, posting images of videos of obscene gestures, linking to obscene web sites, posting obscene or graphic descriptions of a decidedly adult nature, and violating a standard of decent behavior is not allowed.

February 21st is the deadline for full enforcement of the measure.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/forum-guidelines/350914-posting-guidelines-forum-rules-2016-a.html }*


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## frustratedman

Discombobulated post from me... What's new?

Another weird deal... My older son has kind of tried to play games but since we talk so much it doesn't work. She texted me, explaining what she said to our son and I quote:

"I always say that just because we're divorced doesn't mean we can't get along. I love and respect your dad and we want what's best for all of us."

Yeah it's nice and all, but don't fvcking say that you love me. If you loved me, you wouldn't have betrayed me like you did.

It feels SOOO GOOD to just blow her off and not give a ****.


*{Moderator Note: I spelled out the profanity. Please follow forum rules in regards to the profanity filter.

8. Filter Bypass/Obscenity: A profanity filter is in place and any attempts to bypass it are forbidden. You MAY type words that are filtered, as long as they are not abusive towards other quests or violate any other rules; however, you must allow the filter to do its job. Do NOT try to filter the word yourself and do not try to use creative spelling to bypass the profanity filter. Also, posting images of videos of obscene gestures, linking to obscene web sites, posting obscene or graphic descriptions of a decidedly adult nature, and violating a standard of decent behavior is not allowed.

February 21st is the deadline for full enforcement of the measure.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/forum-guidelines/350914-posting-guidelines-forum-rules-2016-a.html }*


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## MattMatt

@frustratedman "we", dude?

Who is this "we" your ex is referring to?


----------



## Chuck71

MattMatt said:


> @frustratedman "we", dude?
> 
> Who is this "we" your ex is referring to?


Just like with Unbe's XW Matchbox.... she sees FM as her de facto H until she snags 

another poor guy.


----------



## MattMatt

Chuck71 said:


> Just like with Unbe's XW Matchbox.... she sees FM as her de facto H until she snags
> 
> another poor guy.


Unless he is her: "in storage husband" ready for her to get back with a snap of her fingers, should the Big Wide World prove more scary than she had thought?


----------



## Chuck71

That's why we have 2x4s


----------



## BetrayedDad

frustratedman said:


> She's not the hottest girl in the world


Is it safe to say you're not the hottest guy in the world? Yes? Then I think you're fine.... 



frustratedman said:


> The night I met her, it was like it was meant to be.


Where have I heard this before?



frustratedman said:


> basically told her that I felt we both knew we were meant to be together


Oh yeah, in your original post about your now ex-wife. Seeing a pattern? 

To be frank, you don't seem to have a healthy attitude about women....


----------



## frustratedman

BetrayedDad said:


> Is it safe to say you're not the hottest guy in the world? Yes? Then I think you're fine....
> 
> 
> 
> Where have I heard this before?
> 
> 
> 
> Oh yeah, in your original post about your now ex-wife. Seeing a pattern?
> 
> To be frank, you don't seem to have a healthy attitude about women....


BetrayedDad-

The way you put those excerpts together sure makes me look like shallow.

I guess the point of saying my LDR GF isn't the hottest girl in the world was more about me saying that I'm attracted to her personality more than her looks and frankly, I'd rather be with someone who doesn't get hit on constantly. Maybe you're right and I don't have a healthy outlook on women. But, I think it's partially shell shock from the crap I've been through.


----------



## frustratedman

Maybe it leads back to MMSLP, that everyone was strongly recommending for me to read. In essence, you have to be a higher rank than your wife. It's been a while since I read it, but it's in there. It may sound shallow, but, at the end of the day, looks do matter, to a degree. 

Anyhow, I just felt that was worth mentioning and hope it clears up any confusion.


----------



## BetrayedDad

frustratedman said:


> The way you put those excerpts together sure makes me look like shallow.


Just reading what you wrote.



frustratedman said:


> I guess the point of saying my LDR GF isn't the hottest girl in the world was more about me saying that I'm attracted to her personality more than her looks and frankly, I'd rather be with someone who doesn't get hit on constantly. Maybe you're right and I don't have a healthy outlook on women. But, I think it's partially shell shock from the crap I've been through.


You're around 40 right? Looks fade man, you need to focus on the quality of the women.

That's not to say physical attraction should be out the window. But at this stage of the game.

Given the choice between a 6 who gives a damn about you or a 9 whose only good for ONE thing? 

You'd be a fool not to take the 6 at your age... Got to get out of that 20 something mentality for your own sanity.


----------



## frustratedman

That post rubbed me the wrong way LOL.

In regards to the "meant to be," thing, my GF actually texted me and said that she's so glad that she happened to go out on Feb 13, 2016 because that's when we met. My point there was that she rarely goes out and just happened to, on a whim, the night we met.

This goes back to the age old dilemma: Do things happen for a reason?

Yeah I thought that my ex and I were meant to be, 18 years ago. We broke up, got back together and it felt right at the time.

I also wonder if meeting my GF was meant to be. I just happened to be in my hometown for a funeral, she happened to go out for a friend's birthday and we happened to be at the same bar. That seems to be many coincidences. There aren't many single gals from my hometown that I would consider dating.

For the record, I'm definitely not the hottest dude in the world, but I have more confidence now than I did when I sounded like a freaking sniveling coward previously, when I was correctly being "bashed" by you fine folks of TAM. There again, my confidence in myself was SO shaken by the fact that my "loving wife," had another secret relationship that it sent me on a path of self deprecation.

Responsive, defensive rant over!


----------



## frustratedman

BetrayedDad said:


> Just reading what you wrote.
> 
> 
> 
> You're around 40 right? Looks fade man, you need to focus on the quality of the women.
> 
> That's not to say physical attraction should be out the window. But at this stage of the game.
> 
> Given the choice between a 6 who gives a damn about you or a 9 whose only good for ONE thing?
> 
> You'd be a fool not to take the 6 at your age... Got to get out of that 20 something mentality for your own sanity.


I couldn't agree more!!!

My GF adores me and it feels pretty damn awesome. I really dig her and I treat her right, but I'm playing it cool with her.


----------



## frustratedman

Well, time for a check in, for anyone familiar or interested. 

I come on here sporadically. It's therapeutic at times, other times it triggers emotions. I often just read threads without commenting. It's sometimes sad, but dang, the stories are often very similar.

I kind of broke up with the LDR GF from my home town. I was honest with her from day 1. 

She wants (and deserves) more than I can give. The relationship lasted a year but I just couldn't fully commit because I saw a new side to her that I didn't care for. I also discovered things about her that lead me to believe we're incompatible.

Also, I found that I'm just not super physically attracted to her. She doesn't take care of herself. For example, she told me how long it's been since she's been to the dentist and my jaw hit the floor.

I did enjoy her company to a degree but bottom line, I didn't love her. After a year of dating, you kind of just know.

I guess the old cliché "rebound relationships don't work," came true.

That was about a month ago.

Then, the latest big life event was that my oldest son graduated from HS. We threw a grad party for him this last weekend at my new townhouse.

This led to me speaking and spending much time with my ex wife, to prepare this large party. It was bizarre. This was the first big encounter with her and my family and vice versa.

My background story may be quite different than many but my ex and I have had ZERO fights about anything since the separation and divorce. She lives with her mom (which sucks for her) and I live in this really nice place that I purchased on my own. If the average person was asked who is succeeding more in life, it would clearly be me. 

Anyhow, a lot of our mutual friends came to the grad party and it went absolutely fantastic. Her girlfriends asked for a tour of my place and they were all amazed at how nice it is. I actually felt bad for my ex. She must feel somewhat humiliated.

At one point during the party, I guess my folks were talking to her mom in the kitchen. I wasn't present. My folks basically told her mom that there's no hard feelings, they still care about my ex, etc. Her mom said she still cares about me, etc. My ex walked in and told them that she will always love me but she couldn't stay married to me. Weird.

I found that out from my mom the day after the party.

So, rewinding to the grad party, Saturday night... After things wind down, she asked if I wanted to join her and her best girlfriend (also a lifelong friend of mine), to have a couple drinks at a nearby bar.

I must admit, she looked freaking gorgeous. I went with them and she was a little buzzed. I swear she was giving me the sexy eyes... Weird again. We had a couple drinks, bs'd and went our separate ways.

I've dreamt about my ex the last two nights. Uggh. It's like the situation TRIES to make me sad and just think "what a shame that we were married for 17 years, together for 23 and things ended up like this!" I've been working so hard to get over her and this has somewhat set me back a bit.

Then, I remember her emails to her little work friend and it pi$$es me off for a while. Then, later she texts me something about the kids and is all super nice, etc. Ugggh.

What's the point? I don't know. I guess it tells me that I really need to STAY FOCUSED on myself and the kids.

Since I moved and live on one income with tons of bills, I'm trying to get a better paying job for within the company I already work for.

I quit my gym membership about 9 months ago, but I do some things to stay in shape. I need to get back in there!

Just going on a tangent... Wondering if anyone else has relapsed and can't seem to shake their ex, who had broken trust either emotionally, physically or both. Is this normal? Am I normal? Am I just a freak? Lol. Hard to say.

Any thoughts, comments or criticism accepted!


----------



## turnera

Sure. Now that you're single, well off, attractive, SHE WANTS YOU AGAIN.

Move along.


----------



## frustratedman

turnera said:


> Sure. Now that you're single, well off, attractive, SHE WANTS YOU AGAIN.
> 
> Move along.


I don't know about that, but you're right. Need to get those thoughts out of my head. Thanks for fixing my little red wagon. Boooom!


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

You had a good party with reminiscing and well wishes for your son. Everything is rosy so, of course it feels good. Also, a month is barely a blip when ending a relationship. So, you have a double whammy against your regular thinking. Let's be real, she has to make sure she looks like a knockout, to make sure you see she is doing well. It was a perfect confluence of events which triggered an emotional response. It'll pass. I know mine did and it was better when I took a break from looking for a relationship.

Just go have some fun and don't worry about meeting or dating anyone. It'll happen when you are ready, don't force it.


----------



## frustratedman

phillybeffandswiss said:


> You had a good party with reminiscing and well wishes for your son. Everything is rosy so, of course it feels good. Also, a month is barely a blip when ending a relationship. So, you have a double whammy against your regular thinking. Let's be real, she has to make sure she looks like a knockout, to make sure you see she is doing well. It was a perfect confluence of events which triggered an emotional response. It'll pass. I know mine did and it was better when I took a break from looking for a relationship.
> 
> Just go have some fun and don't worry about meeting or dating anyone. It'll happen when you are ready, don't force it.


That's what I'm thinking. Get back to the basics. Just doing me then everything will fall into place. Thanks for posting to both you and tunera.


----------



## Cynthia

Just remember she looks great on the outside, but it's what's going on inside where the problem lies.


----------



## frustratedman

CynthiaDe said:


> Just remember she looks great on the outside, but it's what's going on inside where the problem lies.


This is true!


----------



## KrisAmiss

frustratedman said:


> I've dreamt about my ex the last two nights. Uggh. It's like the situation TRIES to make me sad and just think "what a shame that we were married for 17 years, together for 23 and things ended up like this!" I've been working so hard to get over her and this has somewhat set me back a bit.
> 
> Wondering if anyone else has relapsed and can't seem to shake their ex, who had broken trust either emotionally, physically or both. Is this normal? Am I normal? Am I just a freak? Lol. Hard to say.


I think to spend all that time with a person, with an investment in *forever* -- it seems perfectly normal to me that you'd be wistful. I'm sad for you. I had a co-worker that always said, you never get divorced with children. All those interactions... that's hard to shake.


----------



## frustratedman

KrisAmiss said:


> I think to spend all that time with a person, with an investment in *forever* -- it seems perfectly normal to me that you'd be wistful. I'm sad for you. I had a co-worker that always said, you never get divorced with children. All those interactions... that's hard to shake.


It is definitely hard. I learned a ton from the entire situation. I wasn't perfect and have regrets. 

The kids seem to take the situation very well. I still haven't disclosed the ex's EA (probable PA) I'm not sure I ever will.

The recent graduate doesn't like when the ex and I are together, maybe it's that he doesn't want false hope. The younger one (freshman next year) seems to like when we're together.

The whole thing has MOST DEFINITELY had a major impact on our family, as one would obviously expect.

It just makes me sad to look at the family pic we took at the grad party. A beautiful family that should work as one unit, broken...

Oh well. Gotta toughen up, buttercup LOL!


----------



## Archangel2

Hey Frustrated - Hope you are doing well. Is your ex still seeing the creep that helped break up your marriage (not that it really matters, just a curiosity question)?


----------



## frustratedman

Archangel2 said:


> Hey Frustrated - Hope you are doing well. Is your ex still seeing the creep that helped break up your marriage (not that it really matters, just a curiosity question)?


Hey - it's a legit question. I honestly have zero idea if she's seeing him or anyone else. We have not once talked about that sort of thing since separating/divorcing.

Side note: It's messed up because the way she's going, she will never move out of her mom's house and let's be honest, having a place to live is kind of critical. She's soon to be 42 years old and living with her mom. Her younger sister thinks she's leaching off their mom.

She is HORRIBLE with money. If there is one thing I've learned, it's that if I ever get to a point in a future relationship where marriage is on the table (which seems unlikely at this point, but you can never rule it out), I will be in charge of the finances! My ex makes good money but she blows it as soon as she gets it.

Side note #2: I may have mentioned this in a previous post, but one of my boys complained about us getting divorced a while back and she had the audacity to somewhat blame me, saying look how fast Dad went in this divorce. Ummmm... If I recall correctly, I suggested Retrouvaille and gave our marriage every chance possible. That failed. So I had to go fast, as I was in the process of purchasing my home and didn't want to get effed over! Thanks for the Retrouvaille suggestion, Archagel!

Side note #3: I guarantee she could EASILY have a relationship in a heartbeat. On the outside, she's naturally beautiful and I'm not making that up. A few times during out marriage, people told me things like "how did you end up marrying her," and crap like that. This notion kind of fits in with the MMSLP book. To the average person, she's sexier than me. Just being honest LOL.

My folks thought I had always put her on too high of a pedestal. That part of our marriage problems is on me. I was and still am very insecure about my hair (or lack there of). It still doesn't excuse her 100% breaking of our vows and trust, though!

That's one thing I liked about the LDR GF. I felt a bit like I was the sexier of the two of us, which is kind of twisted. But, it really felt good to be truly desired. I hadn't felt that for a while!

Now I will say that women generally age worse than men. So who knows what the future holds. I've had classmates who haven't seen me for 20 years tell me I look incredible, minus the hair thing, which is still somewhat of an issue. So, that's a good thing, obviously. I guess it's that my face hasn't aged poorly. My face hasn't gotten fatter or wrinkly. I'm 41, BTW.

Being born with a crappy head shape and sucky hair kind of really stinks. That's why lots of bald dudes like myself go crazy in the gym. They want to work on something they can actually change about their appearance.

Whah whah for me, right?

There I go again, off on a giant tangent!

If it wasn't for privacy issues, I'd post a pic of our family and let you be the judge!

So, I hope that answers your question.

One more thing... If she EVER tries to introduce that POSOM to our children, the gloves come off. If it's a different person, I'm ok with it.


----------



## frustratedman

I have information and proof that could make my kids quite angry with her, but I'm not vindictive and she has been 100% easy to work with through and after the divorce process.

People on this forum went off about that and I get it, but I'm a believer that every scenario is different. People also assured me she would try to ruin me in the divorce. I knew she wouldn't.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

frustratedman said:


> Hey - it's a legit question. I honestly have zero idea if she's seeing him or anyone else. We have not once talked about that sort of thing since separating/divorcing.
> 
> Side note: It's messed up because the way she's going, she will never move out of her mom's house and let's be honest, having a place to live is kind of critical. She's soon to be 42 years old and living with her mom. Her younger sister thinks she's leaching off their mom.
> 
> She is HORRIBLE with money. If there is one thing I've learned, it's that if I ever get to a point in a future relationship where marriage is on the table (which seems unlikely at this point, but you can never rule it out), I will be in charge of the finances! My ex makes good money but she blows it as soon as she gets it.
> 
> Side note #2: I may have mentioned this in a previous post, but one of my boys complained about us getting divorced a while back and she had the audacity to somewhat blame me, saying look how fast Dad went in this divorce. Ummmm... If I recall correctly, I suggested Retrouvaille and gave our marriage every chance possible. That failed. So I had to go fast, as I was in the process of purchasing my home and didn't want to get effed over! Thanks for the Retrouvaille suggestion, Archagel!
> 
> Side note #3: I guarantee she could EASILY have a relationship in a heartbeat. On the outside, she's naturally beautiful and I'm not making that up. A few times during out marriage, people told me things like "how did you end up marrying her," and crap like that. This notion kind of fits in with the MMSLP book. To the average person, she's sexier than me. Just being honest LOL.
> 
> My folks thought I had always put her on too high of a pedestal. That part of our marriage problems is on me. I was and still am very insecure about my hair (or lack there of). It still doesn't excuse her 100% breaking of our vows and trust, though!
> 
> That's one thing I liked about the LDR GF. I felt a bit like I was the sexier of the two of us, which is kind of twisted. But, it really felt good to be truly desired. I hadn't felt that for a while!
> 
> Now I will say that women generally age worse than men. So who knows what the future holds. I've had classmates who haven't seen me for 20 years tell me I look incredible, minus the hair thing, which is still somewhat of an issue. So, that's a good thing, obviously. I guess it's that my face hasn't aged poorly. My face hasn't gotten fatter or wrinkly. I'm 41, BTW.
> 
> Being born with a crappy head shape and sucky hair kind of really stinks. That's why lots of bald dudes like myself go crazy in the gym. They want to work on something they can actually change about their appearance.
> 
> Whah whah for me, right?
> 
> There I go again, off on a giant tangent!
> 
> If it wasn't for privacy issues, I'd post a pic of our family and let you be the judge!
> 
> So, I hope that answers your question.
> 
> One more thing... If she EVER tries to introduce that POSOM to our children, the gloves come off. If it's a different person, I'm ok with it.


This is why You need a break. This is why you just chill and worry about you. The kids as well of course, but you get what I mean. Heck, It's been awhile so, I'd have I'll have to refresh myself, but you should talk with someone about some of these issues. Your wife did a number on you and you are still carrying some residual baggage. For example, when you date you find someone frugal. Yes, you learn from what happened in your marriage. Yes, you set boundaries accordingly, but make sure you aren't punishing the next person you date for your wife's egregious behavior.


----------



## Archangel2

frustratedman said:


> ...Side note #2: I may have mentioned this in a previous post, but one of my boys complained about us getting divorced a while back and she had the audacity to somewhat blame me, saying look how fast Dad went in this divorce. Ummmm... If I recall correctly, I suggested Retrouvaille and gave our marriage every chance possible. That failed. So I had to go fast, as I was in the process of purchasing my home and didn't want to get effed over! Thanks for the Retrouvaille suggestion, Archagel...


Frustrated - If I recall correctly, she is the one who blew off doing the work for Retrouvaille after you guys went. So shame on her. You gave it your best shot, so you can look at yourself in the mirror in the morning.My only concern is do you have someone to whom you can vent about what happened. Perhaps you can tell your mom about what happened if you can swear her to secrecy? It is important that you not keep this in and potentially harm yourself later.


----------



## frustratedman

Archangel2 said:


> Frustrated - If I recall correctly, she is the one who blew off doing the work for Retrouvaille after you guys went. So shame on her. You gave it your best shot, so you can look at yourself in the mirror in the morning.My only concern is do you have someone to whom you can vent about what happened. Perhaps you can tell your mom about what happened if you can swear her to secrecy? It is important that you not keep this in and potentially harm yourself later.


Oh I've told both of my parents everything. They know. My ex was a big part of their lives too. I'm not going to harm myself. All is well, I a just going through a bump in the road. Right now, it's the lack of endorphins from ex LDR and all the feelings of spending much time with ex wife. Sort of like a lost puppy dog, feeling lonely for the first time in a while. But, it's ok. I've got a friend crashing at my place for a couple days for a musical event. That's making things easier.


----------



## frustratedman

It will pass. My life is actually pretty damn good.


----------



## turnera

Lonely is an exercise, an assignment - to learn how to be ok alone. Which should be your goal. You'll never be great partner material until you're ok being alone.


----------



## frustratedman

turnera said:


> Lonely is an exercise, an assignment - to learn how to be ok alone. Which should be your goal. You'll never be great partner material until you're ok being alone.


I totally agree. This is true. You have to be truly happy alone... and healthy, to be ready for a relationship. The physiological side is a struggle. I don't want to sound like a sicko, but sex is important to me and going from having it often to occasionally to never is challenging.


----------



## turnera

I have no problem with FWB - as long as you're all clear that's all it will ever be.


----------



## Chuck71

frustratedman;18068641
Any thoughts said:


> Glad to hear about your recent endeavors. I still love who my XW "was" many years ago. I actually always
> 
> will. But who she turned into, was a rotting, walking corpse. To me, my XW is "dead." That person is gone
> 
> and she ain't coming back. Well... the corpse she turned into does attempt to make reaches,
> 
> some major, most minor.... maybe twice a year now. Recently she asked me to help her look
> 
> for a used car. Test drive it, kick the tires, etc. She still thinks in some way, I am here de facto H.
> 
> In your case, your ties to her will diminish as the kids grow older. As long as she is a good
> 
> mom to them, having to be around her a few times a year isn't all that bad.... I would guess.
> 
> Maybe you are not interested in another LTR. Nothing wrong with that. I always dated older women,
> 
> XW was seven years older, but I still want kids and I am in my mid-40s so I have no choice but
> 
> to date younger women. Bit different than what I was used to. You've gotten your feet wet
> 
> in the dating game. Decide what you will and will not accept and search for that person. But as we
> 
> all know, love usually finds you when you least expect it. Thanks for the update!


----------



## Chuck71

frustratedman said:


> Hey - it's a legit question. I honestly have zero idea if she's seeing him or anyone else. We have not once talked about that sort of thing since separating/divorcing.
> 
> Side note: It's messed up because the way she's going, she will never move out of her mom's house and let's be honest, having a place to live is kind of critical. She's soon to be 42 years old and living with her mom. Her younger sister thinks she's leaching off their mom.
> 
> She is HORRIBLE with money. If there is one thing I've learned, it's that if I ever get to a point in a future relationship where marriage is on the table (which seems unlikely at this point, but you can never rule it out), I will be in charge of the finances! My ex makes good money but she blows it as soon as she gets it.
> 
> Side note #2: I may have mentioned this in a previous post, but one of my boys complained about us getting divorced a while back and she had the audacity to somewhat blame me, saying look how fast Dad went in this divorce. Ummmm... If I recall correctly, I suggested Retrouvaille and gave our marriage every chance possible. That failed. So I had to go fast, as I was in the process of purchasing my home and didn't want to get effed over! Thanks for the Retrouvaille suggestion, Archagel!
> 
> Side note #3: I guarantee she could EASILY have a relationship in a heartbeat. On the outside, she's naturally beautiful and I'm not making that up. A few times during out marriage, people told me things like "how did you end up marrying her," and crap like that. This notion kind of fits in with the MMSLP book. To the average person, she's sexier than me. Just being honest LOL.
> 
> My folks thought I had always put her on too high of a pedestal. That part of our marriage problems is on me. I was and still am very insecure about my hair (or lack there of). It still doesn't excuse her 100% breaking of our vows and trust, though!
> 
> That's one thing I liked about the LDR GF. I felt a bit like I was the sexier of the two of us, which is kind of twisted. But, it really felt good to be truly desired. I hadn't felt that for a while!
> 
> Now I will say that women generally age worse than men. So who knows what the future holds. I've had classmates who haven't seen me for 20 years tell me I look incredible, minus the hair thing, which is still somewhat of an issue. So, that's a good thing, obviously. I guess it's that my face hasn't aged poorly. My face hasn't gotten fatter or wrinkly. I'm 41, BTW.
> 
> *Being born with a crappy head shape and sucky hair kind of really stinks. That's why lots of bald dudes like myself go crazy in the gym. They want to work on something they can actually change about their appearance.*
> 
> Whah whah for me, right?
> 
> There I go again, off on a giant tangent!
> 
> If it wasn't for privacy issues, I'd post a pic of our family and let you be the judge!
> 
> So, I hope that answers your question.
> 
> One more thing... If she EVER tries to introduce that POSOM to our children, the gloves come off. If it's a different person, I'm ok with it.


Yeah FM.... that's a 2x4. Let's end the bullchip about your hair, k? If a female over the age of 25 complains about your hair, call a truancy office... she is skipping high school. I am a few years older than you and, yes... I am thinning. Ask me if I care. Would I like the hair I had in 1987, you bet! I'd also like to be lounging in St. Kitts with a 25 y/o hottie right now too. Enough about my hair.... just on the physical side... I have thighs like an NFL linebacker, hairy legs, hairy chest, deep blue eyes. FM.... your great qualities outweigh your "bad." Have I had a female comment on my hair? Yeah..... "Glad you noticed it." Moved the conversation along. Seven hours later the date was still active, well past midnight at the lake. Yeah the hair was soooo important huh LOL

I started dating a much younger woman last year. Things were going good, I was not fond of her flakiness and addressed those, to no avail. So I ended things. She begged, pleaded... went one more time, few weeks later, I ended things again. Very soon after the last time, my mother passed away with cancer. It was expected, nothing sudden. The younger woman was very helpful but due to the break up, she was not going to be the person I "broke down" with. My XW had just moved back from a few states away and of course..... contacted me *shocker* Eventually after mom's death, I broke down with my XW. WTF....why Chuck? Mom also knew her when she was awesome. She knew mom 15+ years. Did the XW think this would lead to something? I don't know, I never initiated it would, and she knows, I am quite blunt. She was there, the woman I knew and met 20 years ago, for one night. One night was all I wanted. Next day..... back to the NC I started with her nearly five years ago.

Back to faults..... if someone is overweight, they can take steps to rectify the dilemma. After all... they allowed themselves to get that way. I was a pudgy kid, 5'4 and 305 lbs. when I entered my tenth grade year. I was severely depressed and to this day I consider my meds at the time, just one med, was the culprit. It was an anti-conv but it gave me more blues than a Muddy Waters record after a fifth of Jack Daniels. Over eight months, I shot five inches and dropped 150 lbs. Depression was gone.... well I secretly stopped taking my med too. Long story short... not only was I getting looks but second and third looks.

To condense this portion I will just say I had a botched brain surgery and was left in horrendous shape. Prognosis.... lucky to walk with cane, mental capacity of 10 / 12 year old, would have to live with parents until they got older, then semi-independent adult living facility. 

Ok.... the med I was taking to subside my brain from swelling was reduced too fast which did the most damage. The Dr. put me back on it for a long damn time after that. It increased my appetite tenfold. I gained weight so fast it left small stretch marks on my stomach, aka pregnancy stretch marks. They took a portion of my skull out so my head has an indention. I have scars on both sides of my head. I have a blind spot in my right eye. My right arm never was the same (think stroke victim), and my right leg will drag (not the ground but if I sprint it may not move as fast and I stumble and sometimes fall..... I still run, I don't give a F) and I must wear tight ace bandages to keep from turning my ankle. Let's just say my sprinting days are numbered at my age.

Now as a teen, did the botched surgery define me? You bet your arse it did. A friend taught me to channel it or it will eat you alive. It still bothered me in my 20s. But I was by then using it for motivation. Controlled rage.... NOT uncontrolled rage. By the time I was 30, I did not GAF about it. My scars were "war wounds," and it was right before "the clouds parted" and the world actually made sense. Not that I agree.... but many things came together. As for today.... the scars remain, skull indention still there, blind spot, weakness in arm / leg / ankle still there. Can't do nothing about it.... Yet whenever I am angry, pizzed off.... I channel it here and am able to turn it into productive rage.

Use your strengths..... sometimes your weaknesses can end up being, your strengths.


----------



## frustratedman

Well, here I am again. Feels good to post every now and then.

So, I ended the LDR shortly after my last post, in May. It was too tough to maintain and she wanted more from the relationship than I could put into it. We're still friendly and text once a month or so.

In August, I started dating the girl who I had previously met at the concert in October of 2015. That was fun, but short lived. We are just not compatible.

What's the update, you may be asking? After this last short relationship, I have given up on women for the time being. I just don't really care about it much... at least for the time being.

So, my ex told me, via text, that if she could, she would change many things about the past, INCLUDING THIS DIVORCE! Whaaaaaaat? I guess the grass ISN'T greener? I kind of suspected this, but to actually hear her verbalize this was a bit shocking.


----------



## 3putt

frustratedman said:


> So, my ex told me, via text, that if she could, she would change many things about the past, INCLUDING THIS DIVORCE! Whaaaaaaat? I guess the grass ISN'T greener? I kind of suspected this, but to actually hear her verbalize this was a bit shocking.


I find it quite telling that she said she would change the divorce but not her behavior that led to the divorce. Did you catch that?


----------



## frustratedman

3putt said:


> I find it quite telling that she said she would change the divorce but not her behavior that led to the divorce. Did you catch that?


I most definitely noticed that! She just doesn't seem to understand how much damage her little "friendship," had on our marriage.

Oh yeah. I also got a better job at the company I work for. Starting in April, I'll be making a bit more money. So... does that have anything to do with this sudden admittance of regret? Hmmmmm...

Basically, my life is going awesome. Her life is ok, but she lives with her mom at age 42. That can't be good for the psyche.


----------



## 3putt

frustratedman said:


> I most definitely noticed that! She just doesn't seem to understand how much damage her little "friendship," had on our marriage.
> 
> Oh yeah. I also got a better job at the company I work for. Starting in April, I'll be making a bit more money. So... does that have anything to do with this sudden admittance of regret? Hmmmmm...
> 
> Basically, my life is going awesome. Her life is ok, but she lives with her mom at age 42. That can't be good for the psyche.


So good to hear. Keep On Chiving On.


----------



## honcho

frustratedman said:


> I most definitely noticed that! She just doesn't seem to understand how much damage her little "friendship," had on our marriage.
> 
> Oh yeah. I also got a better job at the company I work for. Starting in April, I'll be making a bit more money. So... does that have anything to do with this sudden admittance of regret? Hmmmmm...
> 
> Basically, my life is going awesome. Her life is ok, but she lives with her mom at age 42. That can't be good for the psyche.


If your 42 living with mom life can't be that OK >

Glad to hear things are going well for you.


----------



## Lostinthought61

Glad to here your doing well....Fman, curious how did you respond to her text...if at all.


----------



## frustratedman

Thanks for the kind words, all!

Another small update: Since I started in this new department, 3 weeks ago, things have been a bit weird. The first week, they had a retirement party. Even though I'm a noob, they invited me, so I figured what the hell, free food and something to do.

So there's this girl on the team, who is quite attractive. She doesn't wear her wedding ring, but I found out she's married and going through struggles in her marriage. She gets drunk and starts asking me for a ride home... Of course, I'm not going to touch that with a ten foot pole lol.

It's like when you stop trying, the women flock to you... Strange!


----------



## Lostinthought61

It's called confidence....women can sense it.


----------



## frustratedman

Lostinthought61 said:


> Glad to here your doing well....Fman, curious how did you respond to her text...if at all.


Good question. So there is more to the story... some context. I'll try to keep it short and sweet, but it's tough. 

My son (the freshman in college) was at my house. He was complaining about coming home to what he called his effed up family. He said things like "if you guys get along so well divorced, why the hell are you even divorced?"

My ex and I have gotten along VERY well. There have been next to no conflicts and if she tries pulling any $hit, I put her in her place immediately. I don't tolerate it.

So, the text said that, amongst other things. She has, on multiple occasions, said she will "always love me and have the utmost respect for me."

So, to answer your question, I told her that I'll always care about her, since she's the mother of my children and we have such a strong history (22/23 years of relationship in my 42 years on this planet).

Did she come out and beg for me back? No. But it takes a LOT for her to express regret. She has a lot of pride, I guess.

Hope that all makes sense.


----------



## frustratedman

I think that my ex is blown away that I found a stellar townhouse, pay all my bills and basically have my $hit together. I'll be a catch for some woman, some day. I'm not ready yet... 

I'm focusing on my kids and career. Times have been tough, admittedly. For example, TMI, perhaps, but I get paid this Thursday and I have $40 in my checking account right now.

This is why I applied for every damn job I could. In 6 months, after a "probationary" type of period, I will earn roughly $10K more per year, which is HUGE, for me!

I've stuck to my financial goals, my house is clean as a whistle, my kids are well taken care of... It's kind of like she didn't think I could do what I did without her. I clearly don't need her. In fact, she's in way worse shape than me and actually she needs me more than I need her.

She should have thought about that before...


----------



## frustratedman

I've continued to try to grow and learn how to love myself in the past 1.5 years.

However, on a bad note, I've stopped going to the gym and I've put on 15 pounds I don't need, LOL. Too much beer and hanging with my awesome friends.


----------



## skerzoid

Frustrated:

The sexiest man in Hollywood in its golden age was Yul Brynner. Everyone wanted a piece of him and I mean everyone. He was bisexual. And he didn't have a hair on his head. What the hell are you worried about? Women are drawn to courage, decisiveness, and strength. During most of your thread you wussed at every opportunity. Now that you could give a s41t, you got to beat them away like flies. Why not date your wife for sex and get over it?


----------



## frustratedman

Ok that sounded weird, lol. Love myself?

I should have said re-discovering identity, learning to trust your decisions... etc.

I'll quit rambling now, haha.


----------



## frustratedman

skerzoid said:


> Frustrated:
> 
> The sexiest man in Hollywood in its golden age was Yul Brynner. Everyone wanted a piece of him and I mean everyone. He was bisexual. And he didn't have a hair on his head. What the hell are you worried about? Women are drawn to courage, decisiveness, and strength. During most of your thread you wussed at every opportunity. Now that you could give a s41t, you got to beat them away like flies. Why not date your wife for sex and get over it?


Hence the title of the thread...

The whole story in a nutshell, is that the "emotional affair," effed everything up and made the existing problems explode exponentially. I handled it horribly... very beta. I like to think I've changed since then and friends say I have, so that's good, I guess.

I don't know what the future holds, but I'd say it's most likely not in the cards, for either of us. There is too much resentment. She can't communicate. Too many memories. Too much work (in her mind, is my guess).

Kind of sad, really. The kids handle it well, but it has had negative effects on them, which I think is common.


----------



## farsidejunky

honcho said:


> If your 42 living with mom life can't be that OK >


This is exactly what I was going to post.

QFT.


----------



## MEM2020

FM,
At some level you are still hoping for a reconciliation. Emotions are what they are and when properly managed by your adult self - they only rarely hurt you. 

This is true of every adult who sometimes feels angry - waits til they are calm and then constructively addresses an issue. 

That said I get why it was so hard for you to leave the marriage. I do. Thing is - your wife was reading about EA’s back in 2008 according to this thread. That sort of puts her about ten years into evaluating other options. I’m thinking she half respects you and half loves you. Which is based on a marriage during which you half respected yourself and half loved yourself. 




frustratedman said:


> Good question. So there is more to the story... some context. I'll try to keep it short and sweet, but it's tough.
> 
> My son (the freshman in college) was at my house. He was complaining about coming home to what he called his effed up family. He said things like "if you guys get along so well divorced, why the hell are you even divorced?"
> 
> My ex and I have gotten along VERY well. There have been next to no conflicts and if she tries pulling any $hit, I put her in her place immediately. I don't tolerate it.
> 
> So, the text said that, amongst other things. She has, on multiple occasions, said she will "always love me and have the utmost respect for me."
> 
> So, to answer your question, I told her that I'll always care about her, since she's the mother of my children and we have such a strong history (22/23 years of relationship in my 42 years on this planet).
> 
> Did she come out and beg for me back? No. But it takes a LOT for her to express regret. She has a lot of pride, I guess.
> 
> Hope that all makes sense.


----------



## frustratedman

MEM2020 said:


> FM,
> At some level you are still hoping for a reconciliation. Emotions are what they are and when properly managed by your adult self - they only rarely hurt you.
> 
> This is true of every adult who sometimes feels angry - waits til they are calm and then constructively addresses an issue.
> 
> That said I get why it was so hard for you to leave the marriage. I do. Thing is - your wife was reading about EA’s back in 2008 according to this thread. That sort of puts her about ten years into evaluating other options. I’m thinking she half respects you and half loves you. Which is based on a marriage during which you half respected yourself and half loved yourself.


I would say that me half loving/respecting myself started when I found out about the inappropriate friendship, which was in 2011. My confidence decreased dramatically at that point.


----------



## frustratedman

Do I want reconciliation? It's hard for me not to love this woman. It's also hard for me TO love this woman. Our bond will be forever, since we've got kids. Of course, everyone wants to be wanted. My ex wife is still very attractive on the outside. It's what's on the inside, the history, the lack of her having a passion and her inability to manage finances that make her unattractive to me.

She would have to beg and it would be a LOT of heavy lifting for her to slide back into my life. That's simply not going to happen, IMO. Therefore, it's best for me to keep on keeping on, live my life, accomplish my goals and see what the future holds.


----------



## frustratedman

Oh yeah... the trust would be VERY hard to be re established. She is a PROVEN liar, undoubtedly!


----------



## MJJEAN

frustratedman said:


> I'm focusing on my kids and career. Times have been tough, admittedly. For example, TMI, perhaps, but I get paid this Thursday and I have $40 in my checking account right now.
> 
> This is why I applied for every damn job I could. In 6 months, after a "probationary" type of period, I will earn roughly $10K more per year, which is HUGE, for me!






frustratedman said:


> Another small update: Since I started in this new department, 3 weeks ago, things have been a bit weird. The first week, they had a retirement party. Even though I'm a noob, they invited me, so I figured what the hell, free food and something to do.
> 
> So there's this girl on the team, who is quite attractive. She doesn't wear her wedding ring, but I found out she's married and going through struggles in her marriage. She gets drunk and starts asking me for a ride home... Of course, I'm not going to touch that with a ten foot pole lol.
> 
> It's like when you stop trying, the women flock to you... Strange!


This job seems crucial to your continued success. DO NOT...repeat...DO NOT poop where you eat. Ever.

Obviously, being an adult and making friends and/or finding lovers can be difficult. There's tons of threads and articles to be found on the subject. People pretty much agree that, post education and entrance into the workforce, it's hard to find the time to invest in fledgling relationships. A lot of people make their friends and find their lovers at work. I have seen this practice lead to more personal and professional drama than it could possibly be worth.

You already know the woman with the marital issues who doesn't wear her ring is trouble to be avoided, but trouble isn't always so easily recognizable and I think your best bet is to keep your personal life and professional life completely separate. Be friendly, but not friends, with the people you work with.



frustratedman said:


> My son (the freshman in college) was at my house. He was complaining about coming home to what he called his effed up family. He said things like "if you guys get along so well divorced, why the hell are you even divorced?"


He's a newly fledged adult without the life experience to understand that some people make good friends, but bad romantic partners. This is something you should explain to him, if you haven't already. Might save him some pain in the future to know that friendship and even love aren't enough and it's ok to walk away from a romantic relationship with someone you care about, but cannot happily live with as a mate.

This, btw, is one of the reasons why so many say expose, expose, expose. Had you exposed the EA/PA, he'd know exactly why you're divorced even though you are capable of being friendly co-parents.



frustratedman said:


> I've continued to try to grow and learn how to love myself in the past 1.5 years.
> 
> However, on a bad note, I've stopped going to the gym and I've put on 15 pounds I don't need, LOL. Too much beer and hanging with my awesome friends.


It's about 80% diet and 20% exercise, so the beer's gotta go! Soda and snack foods, too, if they're a daily thing. If you need to go out, blow off some steam, be social, and eat/drink naughty things, try being disciplined during the week and allow yourself one evening every week or two where you allow yourself beer and wings or whatever your thing is.

OMG, now I really want wings. Spicy ones. The kind that taste like heaven and burn like hell. Mmmm.


----------



## bandit.45

frustratedman said:


> I most definitely noticed that! She just doesn't seem to understand how much damage her little "friendship," had on our marriage.
> 
> Oh yeah. I also got a better job at the company I work for. Starting in April, I'll be making a bit more money. So... does that have anything to do with this sudden admittance of regret? Hmmmmm...
> 
> Basically, my life is going awesome. Her life is ok, but she lives with her mom at age 42. That can't be good for the psyche.


How would she know about your raise at work? Are you telling her this stuff? Why are you still talking to her, or reading her texts? You need to ghost her and go dark except for things related to the kids.


----------



## bandit.45

frustratedman said:


> She has, on multiple occasions, said she will "always love me and have the utmost respect for me."


Women always say that. They don't mean it. Once she settles into a new steady relationship with a new fiancée you will be yesterday's news and she will go back to being snotty and hostile. Trust me. 




> So, to answer your question, I told her that I'll always care about her, since she's the mother of my children and we have such a strong history (22/23 years of relationship in my 42 years on this planet).
> 
> Did she come out and beg for me back? No. But it takes a LOT for her to express regret. She has a lot of pride, I guess.
> 
> Hope that all makes sense.


Ignore her. Don't be her friend, don't listen to her complain about her aches and pains. She lost that privilege with you. Talk about the kids and nothing more.


----------



## bandit.45

frustratedman said:


> Do I want reconciliation? It's hard for me not to love this woman. It's also hard for me TO love this woman. Our bond will be forever, since we've got kids. Of course, everyone wants to be wanted. My ex wife is still very attractive on the outside. It's what's on the inside, the history, the lack of her having a passion and her inability to manage finances that make her unattractive to me.
> 
> She would have to beg and it would be a LOT of heavy lifting for her to slide back into my life. That's simply not going to happen, IMO. Therefore, it's best for me to keep on keeping on, live my life, accomplish my goals and see what the future holds.


She tossed you out like unwanted trash when it suited her. Now it suits her to have you back and to stay on your good side. Don't believe it. Don't trust her. And for heaven's sake stop sharing news about your job or finances with her. It is none of her business. It isn't really anyone else's business. Never talk about how much you make to anyone.


----------



## frustratedman

bandit.45 said:


> She tossed you out like unwanted trash when it suited her. Now it suits her to have you back and to stay on your good side. Don't believe it. Don't trust her. And for heaven's sake stop sharing news about your job or finances with her. It is none of her business. It isn't really anyone else's business. Never talk about how much you make to anyone.


She knows how much it is because I've been trying to get this gig for years. It's a union gig with a wage scale.

Your advice is sound. Maybe we have become too friendly with each other... Hard to say.


----------



## frustratedman

Also, the job is a different town so she has to be aware.


----------



## frustratedman

Bandit. Your posts have me thinking...

I guess I'm happy to stay friends with her, for the time being...


----------



## bandit.45

frustratedman said:


> Bandit. Your posts have me thinking...
> 
> I guess I'm happy to stay friends with her, for the time being...


Coparents....not friends.


----------



## Chuck71

frustratedman said:


> Well, here I am again. Feels good to post every now and then.
> 
> So, I ended the LDR shortly after my last post, in May. It was too tough to maintain and she wanted more from the relationship than I could put into it. We're still friendly and text once a month or so.
> 
> *In August, I started dating the girl who I had previously met at the concert in October of 2015. That was fun, but short lived. We are just not compatible.*
> 
> What's the update, you may be asking? After this last short relationship, I have given up on women for the time being. I just don't really care about it much... at least for the time being.
> 
> So, my ex told me, via text, that if she could, she would change many things about the past, INCLUDING THIS DIVORCE! Whaaaaaaat? I guess the grass ISN'T greener? I kind of suspected this, but to actually hear her verbalize this was a bit shocking.


Just on the bold for now..... was she the gal you really liked before your D was final?


----------



## frustratedman

Chuck71 said:


> Just on the bold for now..... was she the gal you really liked before your D was final?


Chuck - First of all, I was hoping to hear from ya, so thanks!

This was the girl I met at a concert about 3 months after the bottom fell out. I wasn't wearing my ring, I was still married, she started dancing with me, we made out... That was the only time I had seen her but we texted for a few weeks. She told me she couldn't continue because I was still married.

About 1.5 years later, I added her on FB and bam! The first few weeks were great, but we both realized we weren't right for each other. The relationship was short, but sweet, while it lasted.


----------



## Satya

bandit.45 said:


> Coparents....not friends.


Yeah, please don't stay "friends" or you'll never move on with your life.

It's like trying to put dispensed frozen yogurt back into the machine the same way it came out.

You can't revert to friendship from a marriage, IMO, nor should you try. I'm sure we have some people here who disagree with me, but I'd call them outliers. 

AMICABLE parenting.... That's different. My husband is amicable with his ex regarding their children and they usually coordinate over text/email. If I told him she was his "friend," he'd ask me to pass the barf bucket, pronto.


----------



## snerg

frustratedman said:


> Also, the job is a different town so she has to be aware.


Why?

You seem to think she is the keeper of your business the way you keep writing.

She didn't need to know you have a new job.
She doesn't need to know how much you make.
She doesn't need to know where you work.

She needs to know bupkis about your life.

Only communication is about kids. Period.

Stop being friends with her.

Stop this foolishness about "I've known her 22+ years and it's hard not to...."

Her and her life (outside of kids) are part of the monkeys.
Every time you talk to her and she digs into your life or you want to be friends repeat:
Not my monkeys
Not my circus


----------



## frustratedman

So yeah... There are a lot of bitter people on TAM CWI and I understand that perspective.

I'd much rather be friendly with my ex than have her screw me over. She's been very easy to work with. We help each other out when needed. I don't tell her everything about my life but she is aware of my job since it involves her in regards to my kid's schedule.

I get what y'all are saying. I really do.

Anyhow, I appreciate the feedback from everyone.


----------



## turnera

I'm not bitter. My H never cheated on me. But I know psychology. So I give that advice. Sounds like you're doing ok. As long as you don't get involved.


----------



## frustratedman

turnera said:


> I'm not bitter. My H never cheated on me. But I know psychology. So I give that advice. Sounds like you're doing ok. As long as you don't get involved.


The statement wasn't directed at anyone specifically. Frankly, I appreciate ALL comments because, at the end of the day, someone is going out of their way to try and help or provide other perspectives.

Perhaps it was a poor choice of words and for that, I apologize.


----------



## Archangel2

frustratedman said:


> Good question. So there is more to the story... some context. I'll try to keep it short and sweet, but it's tough.
> 
> My son (the freshman in college) was at my house. He was complaining about coming home to what he called his effed up family. He said things like "if you guys get along so well divorced, why the hell are you even divorced?"
> 
> My ex and I have gotten along VERY well. There have been next to no conflicts and if she tries pulling any $hit, I put her in her place immediately. I don't tolerate it.


Frustrated - Glad to see you are doing well. As far as your sons are concerned, if at some point they become unreasonable about the divorce, perhaps it would be time for a "Come to Jesus" moment as to why you divorced her in the first place, complete with evidence. I'm not saying to do this now, but you may need something in your back pocket to quell future conflicts.


----------



## MEM2020

FM,
Your ex wife was evaluating options 3 years before your loss of confidence. That simply means that your default behavior doesn’t really work for her. 

And she keeps playing the very popular game called: Can we reconcile without me actually doing any real work? 





frustratedman said:


> I would say that me half loving/respecting myself started when I found out about the inappropriate friendship, which was in 2011. My confidence decreased dramatically at that point.


----------



## bandit.45

You can be polite and cordial without being her friend. 

Treat her as you would the Fed Ex guy or the checker at your favorite store.


----------



## Chuck71

frustratedman said:


> Chuck - First of all, I was hoping to hear from ya, so thanks!
> 
> This was the girl I met at a concert about 3 months after the bottom fell out. I wasn't wearing my ring, I was still married, she started dancing with me, we made out... That was the only time I had seen her but we texted for a few weeks. She told me she couldn't continue because I was still married.
> 
> About 1.5 years later, I added her on FB and bam! The first few weeks were great, but we both realized we weren't right for each other. The relationship was short, but sweet, while it lasted.


FM.......be very wary of her. This is the SAME person who checked out on your M a good eight-ten years prior. Wasn't she a SAHM? 

Bet she'd like that again after living with her mom. Funny she said in a round about way.... she wishes the D didn't happen... that's odd.

She refused to stop contact with her EA friend and rubbed it in your face. WITF would want that back??? She is wide awake in dreamland.

It's sad for your son..... that's how he grew up... two parent home. How much does he know about why the D occurred? 

I was with my XW nearly 16 years but that's a place I do not want to return to. Her life is a train wreck after train wreck. That happens often in

parent / child marriages that end. Even if... there was 0.01% of you who would consider rekindling... not only is she not "doing" anything, she ain't

saying anything either. Unless you count "fishing lure" comments.

If you aren't ready to date for awhile..... you just aren't. You have a new job to focus on.

Oh.... the concert gal you re-connected with.... what turned you off about her?


----------



## frustratedman

Chuck71 said:


> FM.......be very wary of her. This is the SAME person who checked out on your M a good eight-ten years prior. Wasn't she a SAHM?
> 
> Bet she'd like that again after living with her mom. Funny she said in a round about way.... she wishes the D didn't happen... that's odd.
> 
> She refused to stop contact with her EA friend and rubbed it in your face. WITF would want that back??? She is wide awake in dreamland.
> 
> It's sad for your son..... that's how he grew up... two parent home. How much does he know about why the D occurred?
> 
> I was with my XW nearly 16 years but that's a place I do not want to return to. Her life is a train wreck after train wreck. That happens often in
> 
> parent / child marriages that end. Even if... there was 0.01% of you who would consider rekindling... not only is she not "doing" anything, she ain't
> 
> saying anything either. Unless you count "fishing lure" comments.
> 
> If you aren't ready to date for awhile..... you just aren't. You have a new job to focus on.
> 
> Oh.... the concert gal you re-connected with.... what turned you off about her?


Howdy Chuck!

No she wasn't a SAHM. She has a decent job, which is why the D worked out so amicably.

Kids? I haven't told them about the EA. Neither of us has said anything negative about the other.

The gal from the concert? It was rwo ways. We just weren't feeling the connection. Different ideas of fun, etc.


----------



## frustratedman

Hello all. It's been a while, but I have an update.

Here's a very barbaric recap:

* Married in 1999.

* Start of marriage a bit rough. We were both pretty young.

* In 2011, I found wife texting co worker; EA discovered and admitted.

* We went to marital counseling. I agreed to work on her grievances. She agreed to no personal contact with EA partner.

* 2012 I found a FB message from her to him. Nothing sexual in nature, but clear evidence of not adhering to promise.

*2015 I could feel her withdrawing and searched her phone. I found a hidden email where he said he had a tough time not wanting or trying to kiss her. That email was from a year prior.

* The crap hit the fan. We separated for 6 months. Did Retrouvaille based on a recommendation from TAM.

* I (perhaps stupidly) wanted to keep our marriage and family together. She said she was done.

* Amicable divorce in May of 2016.

* I dated a couple women but none of them panned out. No biggie.

* Christmas of 2017 I was in my home town and met a new woman, 9 years younger, with a 2 year old.

* We bagan an LDR in February of 2018.


----------



## frustratedman

I just wanted to post that to make sure I was logged in and it would work, haha.

Anyhow, the last few weeks have been pretty wild. My ex discovered throgh FB who my new GF is and went APE ****!!!

My GF is 9 years younger (I'm 42 and she's 33) and very attractive. She has her life together, big time. I know what you're wondering. How did her relationship with the father end so quickly? Basically, it sounds like he is a bit of a *******, who didn't like her shift at work, etc. They weren't married. She says she made a bad choice. On a good note, he's a good dad, involved, etc.

My relationship is still pretty young, but, so far she definitely has the most potential of being "the one."


----------



## frustratedman

So... my ex is going off, purely out of jealousy. This morning, she threatened to "bring me to court for child support." This is very unlike her. It's kind of like the old "I don't want you but no one else can have you," deals.

I think it will pass over. In an effort to calm her down, I engaged in conversation. She brought up all this stuff from our marriage, etc. I explained that I can NEVER trust her again, period.

I somewhat indicated that if she's going to make my life a living hell, I might have to use my nuclear option, which is to tell my boys (soon to be 19 & 15) why we got divorced. I assure you that my sons will despise their mother if I tell them.

Is this wrong of me? I guess I feel that she's using the kids as pawns. I certainly don't want to, but I may be forced to retaliate in a similar fashion.


----------



## lucy999

It was wrong of you to engage in conversation with her. Who cares if she's upset? You are divorced. Don't talk to her unless it's about your boys. Why aren't you paying child support for the 15 yo, was that part of the settlement ?


----------



## frustratedman

Split custody. No settlement. No court. Uncontested divorce. ZERO dollars have been exchanged.


----------



## frustratedman

Truly the greatest divorce in history. Many on TAM didn't think it would happen but I knew my wife wouldn't eff me over. 

We have 22/23 years of history, married for 17. Really sort of sad that things ended the way they did. 

I'm already over her and have been for a while. It's kind of like she's going through the stages of greif that I've already been through.


----------



## Bibi1031

Don't feel one iota of guilt for telling her you would out her with the boys. Quite frankly, that cat should have been out of the a bag about 3 or more years ago. Your job is not to protect her transgression. Disclosure was the route to go. It is not too late to fix that mistake. Your boys and the rest of the family should know the truth. 

Get rid of her and simply co parent. I am glad you actually are enjoying this new relationship. It seems to be a good time to find the next Mrs. Please leave the X in the past. She is not good for you in the present or in the future either.


----------



## OutofRetirement

Your wife has been a liar most of your marriage. She was not open and honest at least since her affair started in 2008. I am guessing that after your separation and prior to your divorce, you have hidden from your wife any romantic feelings you had for other women. I am guessing that your wife still hasn 't been open or honest to you about her romantic feelings to other men. She has admitted here and there of a flirtation with other man, never even a kiss.

Has your wife ever indicated that she has been in any kind of romantic relationship with another man, OM or not, since you've been married or divorced?

I understand the needing to deal with your wife as the parents of your boys. But I am not understanding you and your feelings toward your wife. You loved your wife, knew her from 15, and she definitely had her good qualities. For one, she didn't rake you over the coals with the divorce.

But what I'm not understanding is your getting along so well with your wife. She has been a fraud to you for many years, and she never apologized. I am comparing it to myself and my values, but if I had a best friend since 15 years old who had treated me the way your wife did, I would no longer stay friends. I would do what I had to in order to get the job done with my sons, but nothing more. Now, if the friend came to me, sincerely apologized, and tried to make amends as reasonably as can, I would be open to re-starting the friendship, but slowly. 

I have a hard time being friendly with people who messed with my life so purposely as did your wife did to you. And your sons. Your wife still hides, and allows you to take equal "blame" for your sons. Your wife is a coward and a liar. Unrepentant.

What was the reason for your divorce with your wife?

Your hair. Or lack thereof. I understand your feelings about that. But what I don't understand is how your wife felt about your situation. She married you. She loved you. But she never supported you. She never made you feel that the situation did not matter, and that you were loved no matter you had hair, or no hair, or God forbid you had any kind of disfigurement due to illness or injury. The message your wife gave to you was that your appearance mattered more than your values and character.

Did your wife ever have any romantic interests even now that she's divorced?

Why can you stomach as being friendly with her despite her (my opinion) hateful actions that still continue (no apology, it still seems a one-sided "friendship?)?

How do you feel about your wife not owning up with your sons about the reason for the divorce and her culpability?


----------



## TDSC60

You are still very young. Can you see that posting every aspect of your life on FB is like screaming "look at me" from the rooftop?

DO NOT SHARE PERSONAL DATA ON FB. Nothing good can come of it.

I truly cannot understand how people think that FB is a requirement these days.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

frustratedman said:


> So... my ex is going off, purely out of jealousy. This morning, she threatened to "bring me to court for child support." This is very unlike her. It's kind of like the old "I don't want you but no one else can have you," deals.
> 
> I think it will pass over. In an effort to calm her down, I engaged in conversation. She brought up all this stuff from our marriage, etc. I explained that I can NEVER trust her again, period.
> 
> I somewhat indicated that if she's going to make my life a living hell, I might have to use my nuclear option, which is to tell my boys (soon to be 19 & 15) why we got divorced. I assure you that my sons will despise their mother if I tell them.
> 
> *Is this wrong of me? I guess I feel that she's using the kids as pawns. I certainly don't want to, but I may be forced to retaliate in a similar fashion*.


No, it is not wrong of you. She wanted out of the marriage. Now she is out. Her screaming 'right of approval' over who you date is nonsense. Like you are her toy that she decides who can play with. 

She insisted that her cheating be kept a secret. She was willing to forgo the airing of her dirty laundry in exchange for a amicable divorce without the nastiness of alimony, CS, custody etc. 

So ignore her. She files for whatever then just tell the truth to everyone in any way you see fit and suck up the cost. Imply to her it will be scorched earth going forward and that is a lot of events for your children that you both will be attending. Her loss, her shame, her lies. You simply remain indifferent and enjoy your new GF.


----------



## Lizzy58!

OP congrats on your new GF



Sent from my SM-J727T using Tapatalk


----------



## Archangel2

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> No, it is not wrong of you. She wanted out of the marriage. Now she is out. Her screaming 'right of approval' over who you date is nonsense. Like you are her toy that she decides who can play with.
> 
> She insisted that her cheating be kept a secret. She was willing to forgo the airing of her dirty laundry in exchange for a amicable divorce without the nastiness of alimony, CS, custody etc.
> 
> So ignore her. She files for whatever then just tell the truth to everyone in any way you see fit and suck up the cost. Imply to her it will be scorched earth going forward and that is a lot of events for your children that you both will be attending. Her loss, her shame, her lies. You simply remain indifferent and enjoy your new GF.


Frustrated - I hope you are doing well and are taking this new relationship slowly and carefully. I think it goes without saying that maybe you should touch base with the attorney who handled your divorce to find out if you have any vulnerabilities.


----------



## frustratedman

TDSC60 said:


> You are still very young. Can you see that posting every aspect of your life on FB is like screaming "look at me" from the rooftop?
> 
> DO NOT SHARE PERSONAL DATA ON FB. Nothing good can come of it.
> 
> I truly cannot understand how people think that FB is a requirement these days.


I don't post much, as far as personal info. My GF is 33 and she's posted little jokes and stuff like that. Nothing too crazy, but enough for my ex to go nuts out of the blue.


----------



## frustratedman

Archangel2 said:


> Frustrated - I hope you are doing well and are taking this new relationship slowly and carefully. I think it goes without saying that maybe you should touch base with the attorney who handled your divorce to find out if you have any vulnerabilities.


I appreciate the comment, Archangel! We have to go somewhat slow, as it's another LDR. Regarding the lawyer, I truly don't have the funds to blow, unless absolutely necessary. I'm pretty sure the ex is just enraged at the moment.


----------



## frustratedman

OutofRetirement said:


> Your wife has been a liar most of your marriage. She was not open and honest at least since her affair started in 2008. I am guessing that after your separation and prior to your divorce, you have hidden from your wife any romantic feelings you had for other women. I am guessing that your wife still hasn 't been open or honest to you about her romantic feelings to other men. She has admitted here and there of a flirtation with other man, never even a kiss.
> 
> Has your wife ever indicated that she has been in any kind of romantic relationship with another man, OM or not, since you've been married or divorced?
> 
> I understand the needing to deal with your wife as the parents of your boys. But I am not understanding you and your feelings toward your wife. You loved your wife, knew her from 15, and she definitely had her good qualities. For one, she didn't rake you over the coals with the divorce.
> 
> But what I'm not understanding is your getting along so well with your wife. She has been a fraud to you for many years, and she never apologized. I am comparing it to myself and my values, but if I had a best friend since 15 years old who had treated me the way your wife did, I would no longer stay friends. I would do what I had to in order to get the job done with my sons, but nothing more. Now, if the friend came to me, sincerely apologized, and tried to make amends as reasonably as can, I would be open to re-starting the friendship, but slowly.
> 
> I have a hard time being friendly with people who messed with my life so purposely as did your wife did to you. And your sons. Your wife still hides, and allows you to take equal "blame" for your sons. Your wife is a coward and a liar. Unrepentant.
> 
> What was the reason for your divorce with your wife?
> 
> Your hair. Or lack thereof. I understand your feelings about that. But what I don't understand is how your wife felt about your situation. She married you. She loved you. But she never supported you. She never made you feel that the situation did not matter, and that you were loved no matter you had hair, or no hair, or God forbid you had any kind of disfigurement due to illness or injury. The message your wife gave to you was that your appearance mattered more than your values and character.
> 
> Did your wife ever have any romantic interests even now that she's divorced?
> 
> Why can you stomach as being friendly with her despite her (my opinion) hateful actions that still continue (no apology, it still seems a one-sided "friendship?)?
> 
> How do you feel about your wife not owning up with your sons about the reason for the divorce and her culpability?


The reason for the divorce? Well, the straw that broke the camel's back was the email from her EA partner/coworker. 

How have we been so friendly? I think we're trying to make it as easy as possible for the kids. I have about 22-23 years of history with her. Even though she effed me over, I care about her to some degree.


----------



## Archangel2

frustratedman said:


> The reason for the divorce? Well, the straw that broke the camel's back was the email from her EA partner/coworker.
> 
> How have we been so friendly? I think we're trying to make it as easy as possible for the kids. I have about 22-23 years of history with her. Even though she effed me over, I care about her to some degree.


Frustrated - Is she still living with her mother? Also, any idea if she's still seeing the creep who helped destroy your marriage?


----------



## frustratedman

Archangel2 said:


> Frustrated - Is she still living with her mother? Also, any idea if she's still seeing the creep who helped destroy your marriage?


She's not seeing anyone. I have no idea if they got together ever. At this point, I'm very over her. She, however, is not over me and literally wants me back. It's about as weird as it gets!


----------



## bandit.45

She doesn’t want you back. She just doesn’t want any other women having you. 

It’s called dog bone syndrome.


----------



## frustratedman

Archangel2 said:


> Frustrated - Is she still living with her mother? Also, any idea if she's still seeing the creep who helped destroy your marriage?


By the way, yes - she's still living with her mother.


----------



## seadoug105

frustratedman said:


> She's not seeing anyone. I have no idea if they got together ever. At this point, I'm very over her. *She, however, is not over me and literally wants me back. It's about as weird as it gets!*



It's weird, when you were trying to save your marriage, she was pretty much over you.... and willing to cast you aside, but now that you are over her with a level of finality, she wants you back!!!

*GENERALIZATION ALERT!!!*

That's one thing I will never get about women... when you want them, and will do anything for them.... your aren't worth their time but when you don't have a level of give a **** left for them, they suddenly care...


----------



## skerzoid

frustratedman said:


> She's not seeing anyone. I have no idea if they got together ever. At this point, I'm very over her. She, however, is not over me and literally wants me back. It's about as weird as it gets!


I her mind, your XW imagined that you would come back to her, begging to come back together. Then she could regain control and be back to the normal dynamic where she was in charge, and you would be chastened by this whole thing. Oops! Now you are with someone else and this destroys her fantasy. She will not forgive you for not coming back to her under her conditions. You were supposed to pine for her. She is a special snowflake. You are betraying her now (in her mind). This was not supposed to happen.


----------



## bandit.45

seadoug105 said:


> That's one thing I will never get about women... when you want them, and will do anything for them.... your aren't worth their time but when you don't have a level of give a Sha-Hit left for them, they suddenly care...


Totally predictable behavior. Women are controlled by their fragile egos. The moment a woman thinks another woman is better, prettier, smarter, younger, sexier, more accomplished, more fertile, better mother.... they go bat**** crazy...or more bat**** than they usually are.


----------



## Tron

bandit.45 said:


> Totally predictable behavior. Women are controlled by their fragile egos. The moment a woman thinks another woman is better, prettier, smarter, younger, sexier, more accomplished, more fertile, better mother.... they go bat**** crazy...or more bat**** than they usually are.


That is such an egotistical and sexist thing to say! :redcard:

But...yeah.


----------



## bandit.45

bandit.45 said:


> Totally predictable behavior. Women are controlled by their fragile egos. The moment a woman thinks another woman is better, prettier, smarter, younger, sexier, more accomplished, more fertile, better mother.... they go bat**** crazy...or more bat**** than they usually are.


:banhim:


----------



## personofinterest

My netherparts are positively tingling over the knuckles dragging 

Not

Oops, that was my kitchen timer. Time to fix hubby's plate


----------



## bandit.45

personofinterest said:


> My netherparts are positively tingling over the knuckles dragging
> 
> Not
> 
> Oops, that was my kitchen timer. Time to fix hubby's plate


Make me one too while you’re at it... and hurry up.


----------



## personofinterest

bandit.45 said:


> Make me one too while you’re at it... and hurry up.


We're having leftovers tonight if you want some


----------



## bandit.45

personofinterest said:


> We're having leftovers tonight if you want some


Cool. Meatloaf?


----------



## personofinterest

bandit.45 said:


> Cool. Meatloaf?


No, poppyseed chicken, but with different sides.


----------



## Chuck71

frustratedman said:


> Truly the greatest divorce in history. Many on TAM didn't think it would happen but I knew my wife wouldn't eff me over.
> 
> We have 22/23 years of history, married for 17. Really sort of sad that things ended the way they did.
> 
> I'm already over her and have been for a while. It's kind of like she's going through the stages of greif that I've already been through.


Much apology for missing your update FM. Very lucky to get a lawyerless uncontested D.

Can't recall if you mentioned that few years back. From your XWs perspective, she now is D,

one of her kids is grown, the other is just couple years away. What will her life now be like?

That scares her.... she once had a H and two kids. She had a purpose, a meaning......

Now she lives with mommy and is wondering what to do with her life. She doesn't want 

any more kids and doesn't want to date guys who have them. Well most guys -5 to +10 to her age,

have kids. Some even grandkids. She wants familiarity back..... not to get you back 

because she misses you and wants to right her wrongs.....but to validate her importance of existing. 

Then she will feel more like a mom again, and have her H back. 

Again.... hate I missed your update. Always like hearing how you are doing.

New gal..... take it slow. Takes good six-twelve months to really understand who a person is.

Then you have the exiting of the honeymoon stage. That's where I am at with FQ. 

We communicate.... she is very vocal and feels she can bring anything to the floor.

That's a good thing.


----------



## Chuck71

How is your LDR going? How often do you see her?


----------



## Rubix Cubed

@frustratedman,
Did you ever confirm a PA with your ex?


----------



## Chuck71

Rubix Cubed said:


> @frustratedman,
> Did you ever confirm a PA with your ex?


I'm 99% sure he didn't. But hopefully he returns to answer.


----------



## frustratedman

Sorry for the delay!

I'm still around.

So the newest GF (the LDR) lasted from February until late June... sort of. She's 33. I'm 42. She lives a couple hundred miles away. Minus the distance and a couple other huge deal breakers, oh my goodness - we REALLY hit it off. She said several times it's like we're meant for each other.

About the deal breakers, you ask? First, she wants more kids. She has a 2 & 1/2 year old and wants more. I think I'm done having kids... I'm near the end of that journey. I'll be 45 when my youngest graduates HS.

Deal breaker #2? She's building a home near our common home town, in a very rural area, with not many jobs and a fairly depressed economy. I live in the big city, where there are jobs, culture, action, etc. Ideally, she wants a man to live with her and she isn't willing to move to live with me. Her child's father lives in our home town and he's a good Dad, etc.

It's funny you posted, Chuck! I'm actually trying to get over the LDR, at the moment. Feeling bummed. She is like hot & cold. Even though we technically "broke up," we continued seeing each other for a couple months, including just 2 weekends ago. But now it's feeling really over. Ugggh - more heart break for me, but that's what I get for going for a home town gal, who lives 200 miles away!

As for the ex... When she found out about me dating this younger girl from our home town, she went into jealous mode. It was quite surprising! "I thought we could reconcile," and "You'll always be the love of my life," etc.

It was a GREAT divorce, financially, from my perspective.

It's still a damn shame that my relationship with the ex ended like it did... Truth be told, physically, she's looking hot. Of course, that means nothing... just an observation. Then, there's the financial aspect. We would be entering easy street! We both make damn good money right now after both advancing in our careers. 

The kids are both fine and they still don't know the exacts regarding why we divorced. I know there are different schools of thought on this subject, but I have no regrets in my handling of that situation. I'm glad my sons don't hate their mother.


----------



## frustratedman

Rubix Cubed said:


> @frustratedman,
> Did you ever confirm a PA with your ex?


Chuck is correct! I never confirmed PA and my ex whole heartedly denies anything physical. Either way, I'll never know the truth and no matter how you slice and dice it, she 100000% lied to me, on multiple occasions, even after we agreed all contact with her EA partner was to end (in marital counseling).

It's funny because when the ex found out about the new GF, she kept saying "I can imagine what you tell people about me - you probably make me out to be a monster," etc.


----------



## frustratedman

To further elaborate on the younger now ex GF... It sounds like she hasn't had the best track record with relationships. Her and her daughter's father couldn't even keep it together until their child was a year old. I never got the entire story, but it sounds like he was more the problem. 

Our small, common home town is in an area that I guess you could say is a bit "red neck" and many of the men treat their ladies like crap, frankly. My ex GF literally told me, multiple times, that she'll never find someone who treats her with the kindness and respect that I treated her with.

The sex was fantastic, as well! I have never felt so desired and manly, LOL. I guess I'm "AMAZING," haha. 

About a month in, she flat out told me she loved me, which I thought was too soon. I (probably foolishly and against my good judgement) shared that sentiment with her after 5 months... only to be "dumped" a month later, lol. It was like her biological clock suddenly kicked in and she saw no future with me.

I was willing to continue the LDR and would put tons of effort into the relationship. It just wasn't enough for her.

Although I'm hurting a bit right now, my life is actually pretty damn good. I'm in a good spot for the long term. The other day I posted a FB pic of my younger son with me for his birthday and people were commenting things like "happy birthday to your younger brother." By that, I mean, I still look pretty young, I'm in good shape, etc.

I've done a lot of self reflection and realize that I've pretty much had or saught a female companion since the damn 4th grade. I guess I'm just a lover and that's all there is to it. I find that having a female companion adds so much joy to my life. It's not just the sex. It's the feeling that someone out there cares and that we have future plans to do this or that...

Life is interesting and you never quite know how things will end up. I've learned a lot about life, love and myself through this traumatic experience of marital infidelity (emotional at best, physical at worst). The biggest takeaway is that, unfortunately, the ONLY person that I can really rely on at this point is myself!


----------



## frustratedman

See what you do, Chuck? You post a comment, now here I am, going off into multiple tangents!


----------



## Archangel2

frustratedman said:


> Chuck is correct! I never confirmed PA and my ex whole heartedly denies anything physical. Either way, I'll never know the truth and no matter how you slice and dice it, she 100000% lied to me, on multiple occasions, even after we agreed all contact with her EA partner was to end (in marital counseling).
> 
> It's funny because when the ex found out about the new GF, she kept saying "I can imagine what you tell people about me - you probably make me out to be a monster," etc.


Frustrated - Hope you are doing well. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you say that you had some evidence that created some suspicion that her affair went beyond just emotional but to the physical? I remember the discussion about the condoms, but didn't you say that you had more evidence?


----------



## Archangel2

Frustrated - Just an idle thought. If you ever think you may succumb to the siren song of your ex, you should make a precondition of even thinking about Reconciliation that you both start Retrouvaille over again!


----------



## Chuck71

frustratedman said:


> Sorry for the delay!
> 
> I'm still around.
> 
> So the newest GF (the LDR) lasted from February until late June... sort of. She's 33. I'm 42. She lives a couple hundred miles away. Minus the distance and a couple other huge deal breakers, oh my goodness - we REALLY hit it off. She said several times it's like we're meant for each other.
> 
> About the deal breakers, you ask? First, she wants more kids. She has a 2 & 1/2 year old and wants more. I think I'm done having kids... I'm near the end of that journey. I'll be 45 when my youngest graduates HS.
> 
> Deal breaker #2? She's building a home near our common home town, in a very rural area, with not many jobs and a fairly depressed economy. I live in the big city, where there are jobs, culture, action, etc. Ideally, she wants a man to live with her and she isn't willing to move to live with me. Her child's father lives in our home town and he's a good Dad, etc.
> 
> It's funny you posted, Chuck! I'm actually trying to get over the LDR, at the moment. Feeling bummed. She is like hot & cold. Even though we technically "broke up," we continued seeing each other for a couple months, including just 2 weekends ago. But now it's feeling really over. Ugggh - more heart break for me, but that's what I get for going for a home town gal, who lives 200 miles away!
> 
> As for the ex... When she found out about me dating this younger girl from our home town, she went into jealous mode. It was quite surprising! "I thought we could reconcile," and "You'll always be the love of my life," etc.
> 
> It was a GREAT divorce, financially, from my perspective.
> 
> It's still a damn shame that my relationship with the ex ended like it did... Truth be told, physically, she's looking hot. Of course, that means nothing... just an observation. Then, there's the financial aspect. We would be entering easy street! We both make damn good money right now after both advancing in our careers.
> 
> The kids are both fine and they still don't know the exacts regarding why we divorced. I know there are different schools of thought on this subject, but I have no regrets in my handling of that situation. I'm glad my sons don't hate their mother.


Let's see.... wants more kids, you don't. She has every right to want more kids. But if you do not,

that would eventually kill it. Wants you to move to her....ok. You still have a minor child, 

and another still a teen. Add a job you can't transfer. Unless you like Green Acres.... would be a bad move

just financially. Much less uprooting your kids and / or not seeing them as much. How about not a no

but a hell's no? Being hot and cold is almost a red flag, if you had seriously dated for awhile.

As for the XW..... SHE lied, had an EA and I still suspect, PA. But the EA was enough for you.

I'm sure XW never thought about being set $$$-wise.... that affair fog is strong. 

LDR gal.....she put her cards on the table, you have to commend her for that. Even IF ....YOU

wanted to move back home, and had a secure job with near-mirrored pay..... what about the kids?

There may be a stipulation in the D that forbids another from moving out of city / county / state until

both kids are over 18. ................ Right girl?, wrong time! Been there.... several times.


----------



## Chuck71

frustratedman said:


> To further elaborate on the younger now ex GF... It sounds like she hasn't had the best track record with relationships. Her and her daughter's father couldn't even keep it together until their child was a year old. *I never got the entire story, but it sounds like he was more the problem.
> *
> Our small, common home town is in an area that I guess you could say is a bit "red neck" and many of the men treat their ladies like crap, frankly. My ex GF literally told me, multiple times, that she'll never find someone who treats her with the kindness and respect that I treated her with.
> 
> The sex was fantastic, as well! I have never felt so desired and manly, LOL. I guess I'm "AMAZING," haha.
> 
> About a month in, she flat out told me she loved me, which I thought was too soon. I (probably foolishly and against my good judgement) shared that sentiment with her after 5 months... only to be "dumped" a month later, lol. It was like her biological clock suddenly kicked in and she saw no future with me.
> 
> I was willing to continue the LDR and would put tons of effort into the relationship. It just wasn't enough for her.
> 
> Although I'm hurting a bit right now, my life is actually pretty damn good. I'm in a good spot for the long term. The other day I posted a FB pic of my younger son with me for his birthday and people were commenting things like "happy birthday to your younger brother." By that, I mean, I still look pretty young, I'm in good shape, etc.
> 
> I've done a lot of self reflection and realize that I've pretty much had or saught a female companion since the damn 4th grade. I guess I'm just a lover and that's all there is to it. I find that having a female companion adds so much joy to my life. It's not just the sex. It's the feeling that someone out there cares and that we have future plans to do this or that...
> 
> Life is interesting and you never quite know how things will end up. I've learned a lot about life, love and myself through this traumatic experience of marital infidelity (emotional at best, physical at worst). The biggest takeaway is that, unfortunately, the ONLY person that I can really rely on at this point is myself!


May be true...... maybe not. You NEVER hear the "whole" story from an XW/XH.

She was fast tracking things IMHO. Would've been great until about a year / 18 months in. But with her

wanting children, good chance M would be tabled well before the holidays.

You miss the connection.....I get that. But is it the connection or the fact of being M?

It takes years to really get that deep connection.... y'know....like you and XW had at one time.

Was she aware of your kids custody arrangement when she wanted you to move in with / to her?

About having a g/f.... and more specific, a g/f with that "connection,"

you don't live in misery if you don't have it. It's better to be alone than in a dead-end LTR or

even a continuously rocky one. I was alone for 2.5 years, met gal, ended it. Handful months later

met another.... still together. For the most part, love finds you and usually when you aren't looking.

Now I have to ask.....if your kids were each over 21 and you still "considered" having another child......

Well???


----------



## frustratedman

Archangel2 said:


> Frustrated - Hope you are doing well. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you say that you had some evidence that created some suspicion that her affair went beyond just emotional but to the physical? I remember the discussion about the condoms, but didn't you say that you had more evidence?


The main "evidence" was an email, from D-Day #3. Her coworker said "I had a tough time not trying to kiss you," or something like that. Never found the smoking gun though.


----------



## frustratedman

Chuck71 said:


> May be true...... maybe not. You NEVER hear the "whole" story from an XW/XH.
> 
> She was fast tracking things IMHO. Would've been great until about a year / 18 months in. But with her
> 
> wanting children, good chance M would be tabled well before the holidays.
> 
> You miss the connection.....I get that. But is it the connection or the fact of being M?
> 
> It takes years to really get that deep connection.... y'know....like you and XW had at one time.
> 
> Was she aware of your kids custody arrangement when she wanted you to move in with / to her?
> 
> About having a g/f.... and more specific, a g/f with that "connection,"
> 
> you don't live in misery if you don't have it. It's better to be alone than in a dead-end LTR or
> 
> even a continuously rocky one. I was alone for 2.5 years, met gal, ended it. Handful months later
> 
> met another.... still together. For the most part, love finds you and usually when you aren't looking.
> 
> Now I have to ask.....if your kids were each over 21 and you still "considered" having another child......
> 
> Well???


Everything you said is spot on. My ex LDR GF has definitely clearly stated her intentions. But you're right - there are some red flags there.

Would I have more kids? After my D, I basically said I'm 90% sure I'm done having kids. If it were the absolute right circumstances, I found the perfect girl who lived nearby and that was a deal breaker, MAYBE one more kid!


----------



## Chuck71

frustratedman said:


> Everything you said is spot on. My ex LDR GF has definitely clearly stated her intentions. But you're right - there are some red flags there.
> 
> Would I have more kids? After my D, I basically said I'm 90% sure I'm done having kids. If it were the absolute right circumstances, I found the perfect girl who lived nearby and that was a deal breaker, MAYBE one more kid!


FM...... how goes it? Break things off with her?


----------



## frustratedman

Chuck71 said:


> FM...... how goes it? Break things off with her?


Well? Funny you should ask. Long story short, she broke up with me in late June but kept me hanging around for months. It was still LD, but we would see each other occasionally.

In October, she kind of pissed me off a little bit and I ended it (even though it was already over). But, she’s still all I think about.

So, to the point... She emailed me on Monday of this week and asked if I’m coming “home” (aka home town), for Christmas. Basically, I think she wants to get together for, ummm yeah, that. Plus she’s still in love with me and vice versa. I don’t know if I’ll ever find someone who just meshes so well with me. Maybe I have tunnel vision. I don’t know. 

We’re madly in love with each other but it can’t work. Go figure... She can’t move here. I can’t move there. It is impossible without one of us dramatically affecting our children (or child, in her case). 

PS. Chuck - You’re amazing. Thanks for keeping this post alive and checking in. My days of viewing this site are pretty much over. I used to obsessively read all the recent posts, trying to understand people’s different perspectives, etc. Now, I no longer think aboit infidelity on a daily basis. It still saddens me that my ex wife made the decisions she made. I talk to her often about kid stuff and we get along great. I truly believe she regrets her past actions. But, even though she has referenced us getting back together a few times since she found out about my GF (lol), I can’t see it happening. She would need to really work hard and I don’t know if I could ever trust her again. It really is a bummer. Life kind of flies by and now here we are, each having to rebuild out lives. I’m very grateful to be crushing in life right now and I’m proud of what I’ve accomplished. My ex wife is blown away because she now sees the man I used to be, prior to me becoming insecure, due to her relationship with her secret work pal. Dang, that was a long PS.


----------



## turnera

All the more reason you're now ready for someone who IS good for you and will be a healthy match. You know better now.


----------



## frustratedman

turnera said:


> All the more reason you're now ready for someone who IS good for you and will be a healthy match. You know better now.


I do, but at the moment, I’m in love with a woman I can’t have. But, your point is definitely understood, Tunera!


----------



## bandit.45

frustratedman said:


> I do, but at the moment, I’m in love with a woman I can’t have. But, your point is definitely understood, Tunera!


Sounds more like limerance than love. A woman who truly loves you and wants to make a life with you would be willing to compromise and meet you halfway on things. This gal doesn't sound like she wants to. That's not love... more like Harlequin Romance goo-goo emotions and drama.


----------



## Chuck71

frustratedman said:


> Well? Funny you should ask. Long story short, she broke up with me in late June but kept me hanging around for months. It was still LD, but we would see each other occasionally.
> 
> In October, she kind of pissed me off a little bit and I ended it (even though it was already over). But, she’s still all I think about.
> 
> So, to the point... She emailed me on Monday of this week and asked if I’m coming “home” (aka home town), for Christmas. Basically, I think she wants to get together for, ummm yeah, that. Plus she’s still in love with me and vice versa. I don’t know if I’ll ever find someone who just meshes so well with me. Maybe I have tunnel vision. I don’t know.
> 
> We’re madly in love with each other but it can’t work. Go figure... She can’t move here. I can’t move there. It is impossible without one of us dramatically affecting our children (or child, in her case).
> 
> 
> *SMDH....You n her sound like a country song from 1966 LOL*
> 
> PS. Chuck - You’re amazing. Thanks for keeping this post alive and checking in. My days of viewing this site are pretty much over. I used to obsessively read all the recent posts, trying to understand people’s different perspectives, etc. Now, I no longer think aboit infidelity on a daily basis. It still saddens me that my ex wife made the decisions she made. I talk to her often about kid stuff and we get along great. I truly believe she regrets her past actions. But, even though she has referenced us getting back together a few times since she found out about my GF (lol), I can’t see it happening. She would need to really work hard and I don’t know if I could ever trust her again. It really is a bummer. Life kind of flies by and now here we are, each having to rebuild out lives. I’m very grateful to be crushing in life right now and I’m proud of what I’ve accomplished. My ex wife is blown away because she now sees the man I used to be, prior to me becoming insecure, due to her relationship with her secret work pal. Dang, that was a long PS.


Thank you FM..... I will send you a bill 8>). No what kept this thread alive is YOU posting how you

felt and what you were going through. All I did, like the others, is respond with comments or thoughts.

Maybe.....you and hometown gal are just meant to be "weekend lovers" until the kids are grown,

and maybe then..... Good bet time and distance apart are the root of you n hers issues. Was the very thing

which broke Mike and Angie up in my novel.

When about everyone first gets here, they read threads veraciously. -Ok he is past the horror

show now but in his 1st post he was miserable...whad'd he do- Humans relate to similarity.

Small consolation others are going through same thing but, at that time anything is helpful.

It is healthy to slowly draw yourself away from the boards. It is healthy also to come back every now

and then to sharpen your beak, in your own maintenance of boundaries. Posting on other's thread

helped me a ton when I came here in late 2012. I was still a basket case with my STBXW, wanting to

save the M. Then I looked in the mirror one day "Hey...Fhead, why don't you follow the advice you're

giving others" Stepped into the Tao and XW didn't have a snowballs chance in hell.

Start a LaD thread... let everyone know how you're doing. You can help the many who struggle trying

to re-build their life, after a D. I've had a LaD thread since 2013. Check it out.

.....Really glad you and XW are at least on speaking terms, bodes well for the kids. Your XW has admitted

her faults on many levels. And I would go as far to say, she regrets her actions with co-worker.

Bu she regrets, what it caused...... Had she not gotten caught and you were still together, I don't see

her regretting anything. That's a huge difference. FM you are a perfect example of why I and others,

tell guys to work on themselves, better thy self, learn about self. Because it is a win-win.

If the WS notices these changes, they will be attracted to you (just like when they first met).

Then it is the BSs decision to make. If the WS does not notice the improvement, you are in a better

standing about yourself, for your next LTR.

FM....love yourself, and your kids. Any female who comes into that fold will find a man with healthy

boundaries. Your XW made her bed, now she must lay in it. Cautionary warning for those who consider

having an EA or PA. Is it worth it? 99.9% no.

Now......FM What is FM doing to improve FM? Hobbies? Activities? Time with kids?

Are you out and about mingling -just mingling not scoping females-?

Do you volunteer any? Offer your skill set to others (I offer my financial background to Habitat, to

teach people how to budget $, separate wants from needs). According to DeMello's masterpiece

"Awareness," that is giving a #2. Giving without expecting anything in return. FM... y'know what

would be awesome? You meet a female there who is also giving a #2. 

Mutual attraction? Who knows. But it sure as hell beats the BS of dating sites. That is simply a $ grab.


----------



## frustratedman

bandit.45 said:


> Sounds more like limerance than love. A woman who truly loves you and wants to make a life with you would be willing to compromise and meet you halfway on things. This gal doesn't sound like she wants to. That's not love... more like Harlequin Romance goo-goo emotions and drama.


I hear ya and there’s an element of truth to that. If only you could read one of the two letters she sent me... haha! But, to your point, maybe I don’t really “love” her, if I’m not willing to give up everything for her. But, man, it sure feels right.


----------



## frustratedman

Chuck71 said:


> Thank you FM..... I will send you a bill 8>). No what kept this thread alive is YOU posting how you
> 
> felt and what you were going through. All I did, like the others, is respond with comments or thoughts.
> 
> Maybe.....you and hometown gal are just meant to be "weekend lovers" until the kids are grown,
> 
> and maybe then..... Good bet time and distance apart are the root of you n hers issues. Was the very thing
> 
> which broke Mike and Angie up in my novel.
> 
> When about everyone first gets here, they read threads veraciously. -Ok he is past the horror
> 
> show now but in his 1st post he was miserable...whad'd he do- Humans relate to similarity.
> 
> Small consolation others are going through same thing but, at that time anything is helpful.
> 
> It is healthy to slowly draw yourself away from the boards. It is healthy also to come back every now
> 
> and then to sharpen your beak, in your own maintenance of boundaries. Posting on other's thread
> 
> helped me a ton when I came here in late 2012. I was still a basket case with my STBXW, wanting to
> 
> save the M. Then I looked in the mirror one day "Hey...Fhead, why don't you follow the advice you're
> 
> giving others" Stepped into the Tao and XW didn't have a snowballs chance in hell.
> 
> Start a LaD thread... let everyone know how you're doing. You can help the many who struggle trying
> 
> to re-build their life, after a D. I've had a LaD thread since 2013. Check it out.
> 
> .....Really glad you and XW are at least on speaking terms, bodes well for the kids. Your XW has admitted
> 
> her faults on many levels. And I would go as far to say, she regrets her actions with co-worker.
> 
> Bu she regrets, what it caused...... Had she not gotten caught and you were still together, I don't see
> 
> her regretting anything. That's a huge difference. FM you are a perfect example of why I and others,
> 
> tell guys to work on themselves, better thy self, learn about self. Because it is a win-win.
> 
> If the WS notices these changes, they will be attracted to you (just like when they first met).
> 
> Then it is the BSs decision to make. If the WS does not notice the improvement, you are in a better
> 
> standing about yourself, for your next LTR.
> 
> FM....love yourself, and your kids. Any female who comes into that fold will find a man with healthy
> 
> boundaries. Your XW made her bed, now she must lay in it. Cautionary warning for those who consider
> 
> having an EA or PA. Is it worth it? 99.9% no.
> 
> Now......FM What is FM doing to improve FM? Hobbies? Activities? Time with kids?
> 
> Are you out and about mingling -just mingling not scoping females-?
> 
> Do you volunteer any? Offer your skill set to others (I offer my financial background to Habitat, to
> 
> teach people how to budget $, separate wants from needs). According to DeMello's masterpiece
> 
> "Awareness," that is giving a #2. Giving without expecting anything in return. FM... y'know what
> 
> would be awesome? You meet a female there who is also giving a #2.
> 
> Mutual attraction? Who knows. But it sure as hell beats the BS of dating sites. That is simply a $ grab.


I’m at work right now, but I will definitely respond to this post later tonight!


----------



## Chuck71

frustratedman said:


> I hear ya and there’s an element of truth to that. If only you could read one of the two letters she sent me... haha! But, to your point, maybe I don’t really “love” her, if I’m not willing to give up everything for her. But, man, it sure feels right.


Do not listen to what she says, watch what she does. That is a popism and a Conradism.

You "love" the connection when you are together. Outside of that, at your own residences, business as usual

minus a few F letters back and forth. Neither of you can do anything because you put your kids first.

Very commendable. But she is brow beating you to move to her. That is a sign of things to come,

if you moved to her. Sound familiar?


----------



## frustratedman

Chuck71 said:


> Thank you FM..... I will send you a bill 8>). No what kept this thread alive is YOU posting how you
> 
> felt and what you were going through. All I did, like the others, is respond with comments or thoughts.
> 
> Maybe.....you and hometown gal are just meant to be "weekend lovers" until the kids are grown,
> 
> and maybe then..... Good bet time and distance apart are the root of you n hers issues. Was the very thing
> 
> which broke Mike and Angie up in my novel.
> 
> When about everyone first gets here, they read threads veraciously. -Ok he is past the horror
> 
> show now but in his 1st post he was miserable...whad'd he do- Humans relate to similarity.
> 
> Small consolation others are going through same thing but, at that time anything is helpful.
> 
> It is healthy to slowly draw yourself away from the boards. It is healthy also to come back every now
> 
> and then to sharpen your beak, in your own maintenance of boundaries. Posting on other's thread
> 
> helped me a ton when I came here in late 2012. I was still a basket case with my STBXW, wanting to
> 
> save the M. Then I looked in the mirror one day "Hey...Fhead, why don't you follow the advice you're
> 
> giving others" Stepped into the Tao and XW didn't have a snowballs chance in hell.
> 
> Start a LaD thread... let everyone know how you're doing. You can help the many who struggle trying
> 
> to re-build their life, after a D. I've had a LaD thread since 2013. Check it out.
> 
> .....Really glad you and XW are at least on speaking terms, bodes well for the kids. Your XW has admitted
> 
> her faults on many levels. And I would go as far to say, she regrets her actions with co-worker.
> 
> Bu she regrets, what it caused...... Had she not gotten caught and you were still together, I don't see
> 
> her regretting anything. That's a huge difference. FM you are a perfect example of why I and others,
> 
> tell guys to work on themselves, better thy self, learn about self. Because it is a win-win.
> 
> If the WS notices these changes, they will be attracted to you (just like when they first met).
> 
> Then it is the BSs decision to make. If the WS does not notice the improvement, you are in a better
> 
> standing about yourself, for your next LTR.
> 
> FM....love yourself, and your kids. Any female who comes into that fold will find a man with healthy
> 
> boundaries. Your XW made her bed, now she must lay in it. Cautionary warning for those who consider
> 
> having an EA or PA. Is it worth it? 99.9% no.
> 
> Now......FM What is FM doing to improve FM? Hobbies? Activities? Time with kids?
> 
> Are you out and about mingling -just mingling not scoping females-?
> 
> Do you volunteer any? Offer your skill set to others (I offer my financial background to Habitat, to
> 
> teach people how to budget $, separate wants from needs). According to DeMello's masterpiece
> 
> "Awareness," that is giving a #2. Giving without expecting anything in return. FM... y'know what
> 
> would be awesome? You meet a female there who is also giving a #2.
> 
> Mutual attraction? Who knows. But it sure as hell beats the BS of dating sites. That is simply a $ grab.


I’m definitely focused on the kids. The oldest is in college and the youngest lives with me full time. Kinda cool that he chooses to live with me! There’s no child support or money exchanged. My ex and I fairly split kid expenses (which have been crazy, lol). I’m living in a beautiful townhouse that I fought REALLY hard to get, working SUPER hard (10 hours OT/week) and killing it musically. I play an open mic once a week, self promote on FB and people are hiring me to play their bars. I’m recording an album, too! So I’m pretty much winning all the way around. It’s not perfect but again, my ex is probably blown away. She lives with her mom and I don’t see that changing... ever! Meanwhile, I’ve successfully purchased a home, paid all my bills, take care of the kids, am extremely blessed to have many great friends and succeeding in my true passion... music!

As far as ex LDR GF, she isn’t really trying hard to persuade me to move back to the home town, just to put it in better context. She knows the battle I’ve fought to get where I’m at and totally respects that. She just wishes we could be together more/live with each other. 

I will say that when it finally felt over (which it actually wasn’t), I was ultra inspired to write lyrics, which has been a struggle for about a decade! I wrote a tune I’m quite proud of and have many more in the works.

I’ve also done a lot of self reflection. Moving back to my home town is the opposite of evolving. There’s nothing there. Same people at the same bars, night after night. There aren’t many jobs either. So, to stay true to myself, that simply won’t be happening.

But, my heart still longs for this woman. Of the few relationships I’ve had since the big D, this one was, BY FAR, the best. I get your point about it being nothing but fun since we only saw each other on weekends and carried on with our respective lives when we’re apart. I’m very aware of that and feel I’m pretty aware in general.

I’ve definitely learned that the only person I can 100% trust is myself. I need to protect my heart. The ex LDR GF definitely broke through to me and I made myself more vulnerable to her as our relationship advanced. I believe that’s kind of what love’s all about, along with companionship, sex, etc.

Anyhow, going off on another tangent like normal...

I hope this post clarifies where I’m at and what I’m doing. I’m gonna need to check out your LAD post. I haven’t gone there much. Just CWI, non stop, back when I really needed it. I reflect on that and can just see how pathetic I really was. Then, I think about where I’m at now and i feel a lot of happiness and pride!


----------



## frustratedman

Just to clarify, I’m not saying reading this site made me pathetic. I was just pathetic in general, haha.


----------



## turnera

Don't sound very pathetic to me.


----------



## Mr.Married

Being pathetic and staying pathetic ..... is well ...... pathetic

Being pathetic and rising above it through self effort and growth is ....... ADMIRABLE (and very hard to do!)


----------



## Chuck71

frustratedman said:


> Just to clarify, I’m not saying reading this site made me pathetic. I was just pathetic in general, haha.


Not pathetic at all. The FM in 2015, 2016.... was just looking for answers. Nice thing about your thread is

you can go back and re-read it and see for yourself, how far you have came.

If you are content where you and gf are, then proceed along. As long as both know, no addresses will

be changed for a good number of years.


----------



## MovingForward

frustratedman said:


> Well, time for a check in, for anyone familiar or interested.
> 
> I come on here sporadically. It's therapeutic at times, other times it triggers emotions. I often just read threads without commenting. It's sometimes sad, but dang, the stories are often very similar.
> 
> I kind of broke up with the LDR GF from my home town. I was honest with her from day 1.
> 
> She wants (and deserves) more than I can give. The relationship lasted a year but I just couldn't fully commit because I saw a new side to her that I didn't care for. I also discovered things about her that lead me to believe we're incompatible.
> 
> Also, I found that I'm just not super physically attracted to her. She doesn't take care of herself. For example, she told me how long it's been since she's been to the dentist and my jaw hit the floor.
> 
> I did enjoy her company to a degree but bottom line, I didn't love her. After a year of dating, you kind of just know.
> 
> I guess the old cliché "rebound relationships don't work," came true.
> 
> That was about a month ago.
> 
> Then, the latest big life event was that my oldest son graduated from HS. We threw a grad party for him this last weekend at my new townhouse.
> 
> This led to me speaking and spending much time with my ex wife, to prepare this large party. It was bizarre. This was the first big encounter with her and my family and vice versa.
> 
> My background story may be quite different than many but my ex and I have had ZERO fights about anything since the separation and divorce. She lives with her mom (which sucks for her) and I live in this really nice place that I purchased on my own. If the average person was asked who is succeeding more in life, it would clearly be me.
> 
> Anyhow, a lot of our mutual friends came to the grad party and it went absolutely fantastic. Her girlfriends asked for a tour of my place and they were all amazed at how nice it is. I actually felt bad for my ex. She must feel somewhat humiliated.
> 
> At one point during the party, I guess my folks were talking to her mom in the kitchen. I wasn't present. My folks basically told her mom that there's no hard feelings, they still care about my ex, etc. Her mom said she still cares about me, etc. My ex walked in and told them that she will always love me but she couldn't stay married to me. Weird.
> 
> I found that out from my mom the day after the party.
> 
> So, rewinding to the grad party, Saturday night... After things wind down, she asked if I wanted to join her and her best girlfriend (also a lifelong friend of mine), to have a couple drinks at a nearby bar.
> 
> I must admit, she looked freaking gorgeous. I went with them and she was a little buzzed. I swear she was giving me the sexy eyes... Weird again. We had a couple drinks, bs'd and went our separate ways.
> 
> I've dreamt about my ex the last two nights. Uggh. It's like the situation TRIES to make me sad and just think "what a shame that we were married for 17 years, together for 23 and things ended up like this!" I've been working so hard to get over her and this has somewhat set me back a bit.
> 
> Then, I remember her emails to her little work friend and it pi$$es me off for a while. Then, later she texts me something about the kids and is all super nice, etc. Ugggh.
> 
> What's the point? I don't know. I guess it tells me that I really need to STAY FOCUSED on myself and the kids.
> 
> Since I moved and live on one income with tons of bills, I'm trying to get a better paying job for within the company I already work for.
> 
> I quit my gym membership about 9 months ago, but I do some things to stay in shape. I need to get back in there!
> 
> Just going on a tangent... Wondering if anyone else has relapsed and can't seem to shake their ex, who had broken trust either emotionally, physically or both. Is this normal? Am I normal? Am I just a freak? Lol. Hard to say.
> 
> Any thoughts, comments or criticism accepted!


I just discovered your thread since I saw chuck post lol.

My X cheated, I never confirmed and she never admitted but they are engaged now so I am certain I was correct. In some ways we have similar stories, I am also Bald and lost my hair young, never had a lot of confidence in my looks and stil today feel guilt about my X.

She is an insecure person, overly emotional and we were married for 12 years, since we split she has lost basically every friend she has ever had and we only live in a small town so her life is getting worse and worse.

I just have to reread some messages she sent me to get over it usually but occasionally wish I could intervene to stop her from alienating herself further, I do not want to be involved with her but I would like her to be happy so she leaves me alone and is good for the kids.

In regards to being Bald, I actually get more attention and told how much it suits me so I guess I am lucky, i feel like my current GF is Smoking hot and I had planned a Hair transplant and she was hugely against it and thought I would look weird LOL, I just shave it every 2 days and keep a light beard and hit the gym often.


----------



## bandit.45

frustratedman said:


> I hear ya and there’s an element of truth to that. If only you could read one of the two letters she sent me... haha! But, to your point, maybe I don’t really “love” her, if I’m not willing to give up everything for her. *But, man, it sure feels right*.


Yeah... that's limerance. Don't trust it. 

Her actions are not commensurate with the emotions she's conveying. She's not walking her talk, so her words are meaningless no matter how good they taste.


----------



## DjDjani

Let me ask you,do you like to lie to your kids?? Why on earth dont you tell them the truth? You are already divorced,why are you still afraid??? I dont get you Americans,you are such a weak people,chikens.


----------



## Chuck71

MovingForward said:


> I just discovered your thread since I saw chuck post lol.
> 
> My X cheated, I never confirmed and she never admitted but they are engaged now so I am certain I was correct. In some ways we have similar stories, I am also Bald and lost my hair young, never had a lot of confidence in my looks and stil today feel guilt about my X.
> 
> She is an insecure person, overly emotional and we were married for 12 years, since we split she has lost basically every friend she has ever had and we only live in a small town so her life is getting worse and worse.
> 
> I just have to reread some messages she sent me to get over it usually but occasionally wish I could intervene to stop her from alienating herself further, I do not want to be involved with her but I would like her to be happy so she leaves me alone and is good for the kids.
> 
> In regards to being Bald, I actually get more attention and told how much it suits me so I guess I am lucky, i feel like my current GF is Smoking hot and I had planned a Hair transplant and she was hugely against it and thought I would look weird LOL, I just shave it every 2 days and keep a light beard and hit the gym often.


FM..... this guy has a few threads you may want to check out. MF was like you at one time......

Both of you are striving and achieving. And are 100x happier now. That is why TAM is here and why

me and other people stuck around after our DDay, to show newbys the "light" we eventually saw.

MF used to receive 2x4s....now he gives them.

MF and FM.... nice seeing Padawans walk the path toward becoming a Jedi.


----------



## Chuck71

DjDjani said:


> Let me ask you,do you like to lie to your kids?? Why on earth dont you tell them the truth? You are already divorced,why are you still afraid??? I dont get you Americans,you are such a weak people,chikens.


My.....how constructive!


----------



## DjDjani

But realy,why is he afraid now? Why does he alow his kids to resent him becouse he divorced their mother? No one will die if he tells them the truth, I dont get it.


----------



## Mr.Married

MovingForward said:


> In regards to being Bald, I actually get more attention and told how much it suits me so I guess I am lucky, i feel like my current GF is Smoking hot and I had planned a Hair transplant and she was hugely against it and thought I would look weird LOL, I just shave it every 2 days and keep a light beard and hit the gym often.


Self confidence is the key on that one. Nice to see you embraced it and hit the gym instead. Smart move. 
Smoking hot girlfriend ..... see ...what more proof do you need ? :nerd:

I'm usually swinging 2x4's in these forums ...... if you do the comb over thing then you will get your turn >


----------



## Chuck71

DjDjani said:


> But realy,why is he afraid now? Why does he alow his kids to resent him becouse he divorced their mother? No one will die if he tells them the truth, I dont get it.


As Blanch's H would bellow in the 1950's sitcom, "Boulderdash!"


----------



## MovingForward

Mr.Married said:


> Self confidence is the key on that one. Nice to see you embraced it and hit the gym instead. Smart move.
> Smoking hot girlfriend ..... see ...what more proof do you need ? :nerd:
> 
> I'm usually swinging 2x4's in these forums ...... if you do the comb over thing then you will get your turn >


Exactly self confidence, being more self confident automatically improves outward appearance. Another thing that helps me with self confidence is participating in activities I enjoy and I am always looking to find new social activities which do not involve alcohol since that was a bog problem for me when I was recently divorced, all my activities took place in a bar. 

Going to the gym just makes me feel better in general and a good side effect is you usually look better.


----------



## TDSC60

DjDjani said:


> But realy,why is he afraid now? Why does he alow his kids to resent him becouse he divorced their mother? No one will die if he tells them the truth, I dont get it.


Not all Americans are like that. I value truth. But sometimes you forgo truth to avoid an unpleasant situation.

Wife; " Do these pants make me look fat"?
Me; " Um... Not really".


----------



## Archangel2

frustratedman said:


> ... It still saddens me that my ex wife made the decisions she made. I talk to her often about kid stuff and we get along great. I truly believe she regrets her past actions. But, even though she has referenced us getting back together a few times since she found out about my GF (lol), I can’t see it happening. She would need to really work hard and I don’t know if I could ever trust her again...)


Hey Frustrated - It's been awhile. Glad to see you are doing well. Have you ever sat your ex-wife down and said these things to her face? That might be her road to Damascus moment to either fix things or leave you alone once and for all.


----------



## Archangel2

As far as the ex-GF is concerned, where did she get the $$$ to build a new house if jobs are scarce and not very well paying in your old hometown?


----------



## sokillme

DjDjani said:


> Let me ask you,do you like to lie to your kids?? Why on earth dont you tell them the truth? You are already divorced,why are you still afraid??? I dont get you Americans,you are such a weak people,chikens.


Not all of us.

I think this is right but not to get revenge.

Not bashing so much but...

OP I'm glad your doing well but I think you as well as the people around your ex-wife have contributed and still contribute to her dysfunction. You have done everything in your power to avoid her having to deal with the truth of what she has done. Just like her mother does. You don't tell her the truth of what you think and her actions to her face. You don't tell the kids the truth of what she did. In all these ways she has never faced true consequences so she has never had reach rock bottom and grow. Yes her life is stuck, but she hasn't faced the truth that she is immoral and her immoral decisions caused this. Maybe I she did she could become a more healthy person. Until she does she will continue to deteriorate. 

Are you sure you are doing this to protect your ex and kids or are you doing it because that's easier then having to deal with the conflict being honest would cause. Is it altruism or really just avoiding confrontation. For your last relationship it really doesn't matter much but going forward it's important because relationships without confrontation don't work. All that does is enable your spouse to abuse you and eventually demean themselves. I wonder if this was one of the big problems in your last relationship. Relationships where one party is too afraid to be real are not real relationships because they are not honest. It's interesting to me that your new relationship is kind of also stuck in limbo. 

Worst is you are not truthful with your kids. You might want to think about how they would feel if they found out say years from now? I know I would not be happy about it. Everyone deserves the dignity of the truth, that was their family too and a big part of their history. 

IMO the truth is more important then fear.

By the way my Dad cheated on my mother. I don't hate him, actually we are very close, but I am realistic about who he is. That is actually better because we have a real relationship. I can't imagine how our relationship would have changed if I had been led to believe for years that he was one type of person only to find out years later that he was different. It wouldn't have been good, it would have been like starting all over again, and I would have been pissed at my Mom for lying to me for years. As it is now I appreciate and respect my Mother's strength though that whole thing. It also made me much more thoughtful when I entered my marriage an still now, I think that has helped me have a better one. Thank God she told me the truth when I asked. Unless they are very young you are not doing anyone any favors by hiding the truth.


----------



## turnera

sokillme said:


> Worst is you are not truthful with your kids. You might want to think about how they would feel if they found out say years from now? I know I would not be happy about it. Everyone deserves the dignity of the truth, that was their family too and a big part of their history.


My dad cheated on my mom. I never knew because she wanted to protect me. So I grew up watching him move out and act like a stud horse. Him telling me my mom wouldn't be a homemaker like he wanted, so he had to go out and marry someone who would take care of him 24/7. I grew up thinking he had all the power and my mom (i.e. women in general) had no power. My teen years proved out that if you don't have sex with boys they dump you so I started having sex just to stop being dumped. To this day I hate sex. And I gave the men in my life all the power.

I didn't find out the truth until I was about 50 - that my dad cheated on my mom, she kicked him out, he came crawling back and, because he'd been such a horse's ass throughout the marriage (spoiled, angry, entitled), she told him to pound sand. She remained single the rest of her life and never looked back because she wasn't about to bend herself in a pretzel to please some man again. In the end, SHE was the one with the power. 

But I never knew that. I never knew the truth. And it 100% shaped who I became. (and that's not a good thing)


----------



## skerzoid

turnera said:


> My dad cheated on my mom. I never knew because she wanted to protect me. So I grew up watching him move out and act like a stud horse. Him telling me my mom wouldn't be a homemaker like he wanted, so he had to go out and marry someone who would take care of him 24/7. I grew up thinking he had all the power and my mom (i.e. women in general) had no power. My teen years proved out that if you don't have sex with boys they dump you so I started having sex just to stop being dumped. To this day I hate sex. And I gave the men in my life all the power.
> 
> I didn't find out the truth until I was about 50 - that my dad cheated on my mom, she kicked him out, he came crawling back and, because he'd been such a horse's ass throughout the marriage (spoiled, angry, entitled), she told him to pound sand. She remained single the rest of her life and never looked back because she wasn't about to bend herself in a pretzel to please some man again. In the end, SHE was the one with the power.
> 
> But I never knew that. I never knew the truth. And it 100% shaped who I became. (and that's not a good thing)


As the twig is bent, the tree shall grow. I am sorry that you went through that. There are some pretty crappy people in the world.


----------



## frustratedman

Archangel2 said:


> As far as the ex-GF is concerned, where did she get the $$$ to build a new house if jobs are scarce and not very well paying in your old hometown?


Her mother passed away a couple years ago and she inherited money.


----------



## Chuck71

frustratedman said:


> Her mother passed away a couple years ago and she inherited money.


FM...... how'd the holidays go with the kids?


----------



## frustratedman

Chuck71 said:


> FM...... how'd the holidays go with the kids?


Went real good! On Thursday, we had our mini celebration with the two boys, my ex and me. That went well. Then, Saturday through Tuesday, I took the younger boy to the home town. The ex was cool with that. Spent time with my family, etc. 

I have to admit, I did kind of have the Christmas blues... I occasionally get saddened from missing what my family used to be. Everything is different now. 

I also briefly saw my ex LD GF in the home town. She’s still crazy about me and vice versa. But, we didn’t hook up... just hugged and a couple kisses on the cheek.


----------



## bandit.45

I tend to agree with DjDjani. 

American men are rather pathetic as a whole, and we are getting even weaker and more pussified by the year. Pretty soon women will have no more use for us for anything other than sperm dispensers.


----------



## frustratedman

Random update time, for anyone who cares, haha!

Everything in my life is going incredible, yet I’m freaking bummin’ out, hard. I’ll elaborate...

My family is awesome. My kids are doing well. The 15 year old boy lives at my townhouse with me, full time. My 19 year old college student lives with me when ge comes home. The ex and I are awesome as team members.

Musically, my life is going incredibly well. I’ve been writing the best songs I’ve written in over a decade, playing with amazing musicians, playing paying acoustic gigs, heck I was even approached to essentially lead a string band. 

Financially, my life is going great, considering I’ve been grinding hard since my divorce, which will be about three years in May.

Yet, I still strongly desire a loving relationship and the fact that I don’t have one bums me right out. I think a horrible winter is affecting my mood/possible depression. 

I still long for my ex girlfriend, from my hometown. Our long distance relationship lasted 6 months officially, but more like 9 or 10 months. Just to re-cap, we live four hours apart and neither can move... really long story, haha. The last time we “saw” each other was October of last year. I know that many people may immediately think ”if neither of you can make the move towards the other, are you truly on love?” I get that. It doesn’t make it hurt any less. I believe she loves me, to this day. In fact, as toxic as it sounds, she told me those exact words less than a month ago.

Then, I think about my ex wife, who looks amazing, physically. As we all know, there’s much more to it than looks.

The whole affair topic still creeps its ugly head into my brain, occasionally.

Thanks for reading. Sorry, y’all. I just realized I should probably start a new thread at life after divorce. I was going to talk about the fear of being vulnerable with someone new, but this is probably off topic.

I’m feeling depressed at the moment, but I think I can shake it and it’s temporary.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

frustratedman said:


> I’m feeling depressed at the moment, but I think I can shake it and it’s temporary.


Nothing wrong with any of that man, just means you are human, were hurt and you are still healing, dont beat yourself up, think there will be better days ahead.


----------



## Chuck71

frustratedman said:


> Random update time, for anyone who cares, haha!
> 
> Everything in my life is going incredible, yet I’m freaking bummin’ out, hard. I’ll elaborate...
> 
> My family is awesome. My kids are doing well. The 15 year old boy lives at my townhouse with me, full time. My 19 year old college student lives with me when ge comes home. The ex and I are awesome as team members.
> 
> Musically, my life is going incredibly well. I’ve been writing the best songs I’ve written in over a decade, playing with amazing musicians, playing paying acoustic gigs, heck I was even approached to essentially lead a string band.
> 
> Financially, my life is going great, considering I’ve been grinding hard since my divorce, which will be about three years in May.
> 
> Yet, I still strongly desire a loving relationship and the fact that I don’t have one bums me right out. I think a horrible winter is affecting my mood/possible depression.
> 
> I still long for my ex girlfriend, from my hometown. Our long distance relationship lasted 6 months officially, but more like 9 or 10 months. Just to re-cap, we live four hours apart and neither can move... really long story, haha. The last time we “saw” each other was October of last year. I know that many people may immediately think ”if neither of you can make the move towards the other, are you truly on love?” I get that. It doesn’t make it hurt any less. I believe she loves me, to this day. In fact, as toxic as it sounds, she told me those exact words less than a month ago.
> 
> Then, I think about my ex wife, who looks amazing, physically. As we all know, there’s much more to it than looks.
> 
> The whole affair topic still creeps its ugly head into my brain, occasionally.
> 
> Thanks for reading. Sorry, y’all. I just realized I should probably start a new thread at life after divorce. I was going to talk about the fear of being vulnerable with someone new, but this is probably off topic.
> 
> I’m feeling depressed at the moment, but I think I can shake it and it’s temporary.


FM....... I 110% get the bummed out feeling.... not really having a serious LTR three years after

your D. But for some of that time.....you weren't ready. Same way for me after post-D live-in was kicked out.

I honestly think...LOL....when you live alone and really start to enjoy it, that is when you meet someone

who may have the spark to take it the long haul. Question..... were you wanting a serious LTR

back when you met "hometown girl" and settled for her, knowing it really couldn't "blow up in your face?"

Or a low risk attempt at claiming something that's similar to what you were wanting?

Being alone in Nov / Dec does take a toll on you. Every damn person you see, M...and happily M.

And it is perfectly OK to have thoughts run through your head from time to time pertaining to the affair.

I know it bugs you at times.....she's giving you a standing offer of wanting to get back together.

And you catch yourself thinking about "who she used to be." Then the dragon rears its ugly head and you recall

how she treated you like sheet, betrayed you, and destroyed your family. You don't miss her

nor the family near the end, it's the idea of a family you think of. Sometimes you might catch yourself

thinking back to when your M was great..... because "THAT" is what you're wanting. Not with your XW

and probably not with two young kids under the age of 8.

Ever tried hanging out in book stores, libraries, or coffee shops to meet people?

Could the ideal person you are looking for be out of your age range?


----------



## frustratedman

Chuck71 said:


> FM....... I 110% get the bummed out feeling.... not really having a serious LTR three years after
> 
> your D. But for some of that time.....you weren't ready. Same way for me after post-D live-in was kicked out.
> 
> I honestly think...LOL....when you live alone and really start to enjoy it, that is when you meet someone
> 
> who may have the spark to take it the long haul. Question..... were you wanting a serious LTR
> 
> back when you met "hometown girl" and settled for her, knowing it really couldn't "blow up in your face?"
> 
> Or a low risk attempt at claiming something that's similar to what you were wanting?
> 
> Being alone in Nov / Dec does take a toll on you. Every damn person you see, M...and happily M.
> 
> And it is perfectly OK to have thoughts run through your head from time to time pertaining to the affair.
> 
> I know it bugs you at times.....she's giving you a standing offer of wanting to get back together.
> 
> And you catch yourself thinking about "who she used to be." Then the dragon rears its ugly head and you recall
> 
> how she treated you like sheet, betrayed you, and destroyed your family. You don't miss her
> 
> nor the family near the end, it's the idea of a family you think of. Sometimes you might catch yourself
> 
> thinking back to when your M was great..... because "THAT" is what you're wanting. Not with your XW
> 
> and probably not with two young kids under the age of 8.
> 
> Ever tried hanging out in book stores, libraries, or coffee shops to meet people?
> 
> Could the ideal person you are looking for be out of your age range?


WARNING: NOT 100% infidelity post, but it all stems from infidelity and deals with the aftermath. If moderaters need to delete, I apologize. I’m a one trick pony on this site. I have one thread and I occasionally read other threads.

Chuck - I almost feel like I know you, at this point. You’re a valuable contributor to this site, my friend. This is going to be a long response and hopefully a wake up call to myself. Writing this down feels almost spiritual for me, like acknowledgment... hard to explain.

I’m 43 years old. My ex LD GF from the home town is 34. I wasn’t “seeking” her when we met. I met her at a friend’s Christmas party and we added each other on FB. We kinda just started messaging each other. It was freaking magical. Out of all the women I’ve had any sort of relationship with, after the big D, she is the only one I feel this strong of a connection with. 

I’m still in love with her and she has recently told me she loves me, which obviously messes with my head. I KNOW that I need to purge her from my life, but I have been trying for months and failing. 

I’m working on writing songs for an album and I’ve actually laid down some tracks already... Almost ALL the songs are related to my relationship with her, although they’re abstract enough where the average listener can’t tell. This blissful relationship and the subsequent breakup (which neither of us are apparently over) has inspired me an unbelievable amount! So, there is definitely a silver lining.

Was it a low risk situation? Yes and no. In the beginning, as so often happens, it was unreal. We were on the same page on so many levels, the sex was amazing, we did adventurous things, I could go on and on... Here’s the sad part. NOTHING went wrong during the relationship, except for the distance problem. 

Anyhow, I’d say I opened up and made myself pretty vulnerable to this woman and vice versa. Have I thought about abandoning everything I’ve worked SO hard to get and go move back to my home town? YES! Many, many times. She’s building a house out in the country. It would be incredible, no doubt. But, the truth is, I am 100% certain that I can’t move back there any time soon. My son, who lives with me, has 2 more years of high school, I’ve got a great job that I can’t leave, I own a home that I had to fight incredibly hard to purchase, etc.

Was it a long term relationship I was seeking? If it’s the right person, yes! She seems to be that right person, then again I’ve been wrong in the past.

So, back to how this all ties together. I’m writing these songs and posting them on FB. They’re secretly about her and she knows... so she clicks “love” and randomly texts me... It’s really toxic, but also intoxicating, like a drug... She’ll say “I love love live what we had,” etc. I like refuse to let it go and it’s like I know she knows she has me wrapped around her finger... I know, it’s pathetic and probably toxic!

Meanwhile, I’ve really delved into the local music scene and my FB posts have done great things for me! Because of these posts of original songs, other musicians have messaged me about jamming. So, suddenly, I’m playing with a new band and just kind of meeting several new people/friends... 

Speaking of new friends, at this very moment, there is a woman messaging me. She’s probably 50, which would be different for me. Guess what? I’m almost afraid to hurt her or myself. I know I’m not over my ex GF. It’s so messed up. I don’t think I’m ready for a new relationship yet, but I do desire the physical aspect of it. Maybe it would be the best thing for me, but I’m not super physically attracted to her. She’s kinda cute, very fit, seems to be very nice, has a great personality, etc. I don’t know!

Anyhow, thanks for inspiring me to write this. I need to get back to working on me. I need to purge my ex GF from my life. That means de friending her and blocking her on FB, blocking her #, de friending people like her sister, etc. For me to do that is going to be a monumental task. Life is short and I’m not getting any younger. I deserve happiness. I deserve to be in a loving, trusting relationship. Me holding onto what SEEMS like a very loving, heartfelt and sort of sad situation is actually preventing me from growing right now. I AM growing musically, friend wise, spiritually, etc. Like I said before, all aspects of my life are going AWESOME right now, except for the relationship department. Maybe I should go see my old counselor for one visit and get this stuff off my chest because I’m somewhat depressed when I really shouldn’t be. My life is going incredibly well. I shouldn’t be letting an ex GF from a small town be holding me back and that’s exactly what’s going on.


----------



## red oak

.


----------



## frustratedman

red oak said:


> .


No - She really DOES care about the proposal. Brought it up last May, when my ex wife found out I was dating a woman 9 years younger than me... She went off the deep end and so I unleashed fury back on her and she brought that up...


----------



## Chuck71

FM...... thanks for the compliments. If you would like, I will PM my FB handle. Back in the day, way

before I began to write....I was a songwriter. Got a few I would love to give to either Celine Dion or

Peter Cetera. She knows you can't move to her because of your children and work. She should respect that.

But I feel she is still tugging at you to move. If you love someone....you want what is best for THEM....

not just yourself. Two main characters in my book, she gets a scholarship to a university but

she doesn't want to leave her b/f. They are teenagers....he tells her she has to go.....for her.

Yes they meet later in life. And you may run into her again, maybe after the kids are grown.

But your home is there, your job is there, your kids are there. Plus your XW would block a move that far 

away because it would impact her seeing the youngest child. If the two of you are unable to talk on "just 

friends" terms.....you should block her. Or can you deal with just seeing her once every 6-8 weeks?

That is a choice only you can make. If music is your passion, then by damn follow it. Do shows......

you'll end up with more groupies than you can handle. And let's remember....if you pulled your youngest 

out of HS....he would flip a gasket. His friends are there, the girl he has a crush on is there.....and his mom

is there. If your luck is like mine LOL you will write many songs about your x g/f and they go on

to be Top 10 hits. Then she sues you for part of the earnings!


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## frustratedman

Chuck71 said:


> FM...... thanks for the compliments. If you would like, I will PM my FB handle. Back in the day, way
> 
> before I began to write....I was a songwriter. Got a few I would love to give to either Celine Dion or
> 
> Peter Cetera. She knows you can't move to her because of your children and work. She should respect that.
> 
> But I feel she is still tugging at you to move. If you love someone....you want what is best for THEM....
> 
> not just yourself. Two main characters in my book, she gets a scholarship to a university but
> 
> she doesn't want to leave her b/f. They are teenagers....he tells her she has to go.....for her.
> 
> Yes they meet later in life. And you may run into her again, maybe after the kids are grown.
> 
> But your home is there, your job is there, your kids are there. Plus your XW would block a move that far
> 
> away because it would impact her seeing the youngest child. If the two of you are unable to talk on "just
> 
> friends" terms.....you should block her. Or can you deal with just seeing her once every 6-8 weeks?
> 
> That is a choice only you can make. If music is your passion, then by damn follow it. Do shows......
> 
> you'll end up with more groupies than you can handle. And let's remember....if you pulled your youngest
> 
> out of HS....he would flip a gasket. His friends are there, the girl he has a crush on is there.....and his mom
> 
> is there. If your luck is like mine LOL you will write many songs about your x g/f and they go on
> 
> to be Top 10 hits. Then she sues you for part of the earnings!


She pretty much can’t sue me, to my knowledge. The paperwork is signed, sealed and delivered! Not only that, my ex simply would not do that. I know it seems crazy, but I’ve completely nailed exactly what she would/wouldn’t do and I’ve been 100% accurate so far, haha.


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## frustratedman

I’m down for the LDR and have been the entire time. She’s not and I understand why. It’s a sad love story, I guess. I need to stop being sad and go back to being awesome!!!


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## Chuck71

frustratedman said:


> I’m down for the LDR and have been the entire time. She’s not and I understand why. It’s a sad love story, I guess. I need to stop being sad and go back to being awesome!!!


You told her this is what you are capable of giving right now and the next 3-4 years to come.

You were 110% up front and honest with her. Her refusing to accept the best you can offer....

is her choice and HER problem. You have kids, she has kids..... neither can uproot for a number of years.

You offered LDR, she declined. Ok.....end of story. FM..... in a few months, when she decides to

accept the LDR, be careful. She will enter into the LDR with resentment. 

Stick to music and the kids for awhile. Again.... check out book stores, libraries, coffee shops.

If you like to read or research...... best places. Coffee shops..... it's like a "bar" for sober

people. Stay away from the bar scene..... unless it is an upscale bar. And if you hit

OLD..... post your profile and let them come to you.


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## frustratedman

Chuck71 said:


> You told her this is what you are capable of giving right now and the next 3-4 years to come.
> 
> You were 110% up front and honest with her. Her refusing to accept the best you can offer....
> 
> is her choice and HER problem. You have kids, she has kids..... neither can uproot for a number of years.
> 
> You offered LDR, she declined. Ok.....end of story. FM..... in a few months, when she decides to
> 
> accept the LDR, be careful. She will enter into the LDR with resentment.
> 
> Stick to music and the kids for awhile. Again.... check out book stores, libraries, coffee shops.
> 
> If you like to read or research...... best places. Coffee shops..... it's like a "bar" for sober
> 
> people. Stay away from the bar scene..... unless it is an upscale bar. And if you hit
> 
> OLD..... post your profile and let them come to you.


I doubt she would have resentment, as we totally understand each other’s situations. 

As far as meeting women, I have plenty of possibilities... no worries meeting new gals at all. I’m kind of getting heavily involved with a music scene in a great city for music. I probably go to 6 shows per month and perform publicly 4 times per month.

Things will work out, when the right person comes along... Not to sound arrogant, but damn it, I’m a catch. I’m successful, have a good job, own a home, I’m a great dad and have essentially raised two great young men, I’m a great multi-instrumentalist/singer/songwriter, I have many hobbies, many friends, I’m in decent shape, I’m ok looking (I hope, haha) and essentialy, I have my $h!t together. On top of all the above cash and prizes, I’ve been told I’m a great lover. There has got to be someone out there for me...


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## Chuck71

frustratedman said:


> I doubt she would have resentment, as we totally understand each other’s situations.
> 
> As far as meeting women, I have plenty of possibilities... no worries meeting new gals at all. I’m kind of getting heavily involved with a music scene in a great city for music. I probably go to 6 shows per month and perform publicly 4 times per month.
> 
> Things will work out, when the right person comes along... Not to sound arrogant, but damn it, I’m a catch. I’m successful, have a good job, own a home, I’m a great dad and have essentially raised two great young men, I’m a great multi-instrumentalist/singer/songwriter, I have many hobbies, many friends, I’m in decent shape, I’m ok looking (I hope, haha) and essentialy, I have my $h!t together. On top of all the above cash and prizes, I’ve been told I’m a great lover. There has got to be someone out there for me...


Well...... at least this post is much more positive than the one you made on 6-20-17......post #1097.......

"Being born with a crappy head shape and sucky hair kind of really stinks. That's why lots of bald dudes like myself go crazy in the gym. They want to work on something they can actually change about their appearance."

You just keep on being you. They will come......


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## Chuck71

Hey FM....... I could always set you up with this gal. Think I still have her number.

She was "a date to remember"

https://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/280569-date-remember.html


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## farsidejunky

Chuck71 said:


> Hey FM....... I could always set you up with this gal. Think I still have her number.
> 
> She was "a date to remember"
> 
> https://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/280569-date-remember.html


Freaking love that story...

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## StillSearching

Chuck71 said:


> Hey FM....... I could always set you up with this gal. Think I still have her number.
> 
> She was "a date to remember"
> 
> https://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/280569-date-remember.html


I'd probably hit it tho......I'm known to have poor taste in women over the last 25 years.
"For some reason I wanted to hear "Shooting Star" from Bad Company." this sent me over the top!


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## Chuck71

FM....... hows life treating you??


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## manowar

frustratedman said:


> My ex wife is blown away because she now sees the man I used to be,



Marriage slowly turned you beta. It gradually sucked out your masculinity. I think that's what happened to you. this happens a lot. You became complacent and thought everything was locked down. this is where many guys go wrong. the woman's attraction meter fluctuates up and down whereas the man's, for the most part, tends to stay at a more even keel. You came into the marriage alpha, whereas you didn't propose. Good Move. Your ex wanted to lock you down at that time.. The fastest way to rekindle that attraction with an ex wife is to find a girlfriend. Forget therapy and all that other crap. New girlfriend is the fast route.

Be careful in future relationships that you don't drift back into mr nice guy. Recommend the book the Rational Male
if you haven't read it. Another thing, all those love songs are pretty beta, especially country music, so put up the mental wall. You dont have to believe it to play it. Also take a look at rich coopers videos on youtube and rollo tomassi's.

i think you handled your situation quite well.


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