# Frustrated by WH justifying the severity of an EA



## brokenhearted118 (Jan 31, 2013)

I need your assistance as my H and I are in R and trying very hard to work past this one constant issue. We openly discuss everything and for some reason more often or not, we keep getting back to this one point and I am very frustrated. I need help, because apparently I am not doing a very good job in getting my point across to H.

Here is a very brief recap of my story. WH was cybersexting online to chat sites and having very explicit sex chats with numerous women. (maybe 50-60 women who were 20 years YOUNGER) over a 30 day period. With a few it became more "intimate" where they were privately & secretly e-mailing with "sweet" miss you messages and photos of one another. Upon my initial discovery of the computer history, followed 3 more opportunities of TT'ing and me finding out about secret e-mailing, photos, etc.. Needless to say after 20+ years of marriage, I was devastated. He explains it as an ego boost, feeling inadequate, bored, curious, mid life crisis.

Over the past several weeks we have communicated like crazy, we are in MC and he is completely open, transparent, very remorseful and riddled with shame & guilt. As I mentioned, we discuss our situation often and this site always comes up. He resents the time I spend here (that's another story) and we openly discuss other people's posts and situations on CWI. 

The main bone of contention is this: After reading other people's posts, he always "justifies" his actions as he was NOT in a full blown physical A or having an EA with one person specifically (like the stories he reads on here.) He says his A was just stupid random chatting (he now says it was VERY WRONG) and a few e-mails to validate his ego again. His biggest defense is that he was NOT physically or emotionally ATTACHED to anyone and not vested in them. Since his A was not more involved, (like the stories we read on here) somehow his A is "less" damaging. Basically, he says he is WRONG, but he was not as bad as the stories on here. 

This makes me feel less validated. Yes, his A was not a PA or a one person EA that went on for weeks/months/years, but his misuse of my trust is still shattered. Please help me in making him understand that you cannot justify his actions on the severity of the A. Or am I wrong? Do you feel that cybersexting and secretly e-mailing random women less offensive? :scratchhead: How can I do a better job conveying my sentiments? Thanks in advance.


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

brokenhearted118 said:


> This makes me feel less validated. Yes, his A was not a PA or a one person EA that went on for weeks/months/years, but his misuse of my trust is still shattered. Please help me in making him understand that you cannot justify his actions on the severity of the A. Or am I wrong? Do you feel that cybersexting and secretly e-mailing random women less offensive? :scratchhead: How can I do a better job conveying my sentiments? Thanks in advance.


I can see your point. I can also see his point. And the both of you are attempting to R. So with that in mind I suppose his "defense" is a valid point, in that (a) he didn't have a PA and (b) he did not get emotional involved, which would suggest that you, as his wife, he feels he remained both physically and emotionally faithful to you.

However, the "fine line" (on your side) is the sexual betrayal, is that correct? He was sexually (not physically and/or emotionally) involved with OW. However, as he sees it, since he seduced these women with words (on a computer) alone, he does not feel that act is as bad as getting involved in the real world.

Yes, it's semantics. I know you are hurting. I know you feel betrayed. But the issues in this particular betrayal involved random and meaningless women on the internet. No phone calls? No promises to meet for real? Any of those invasions of your "real life"? Just asking here as I'm not familiar with your particular story.

I don't know that I have conveyed what I'm trying to say here, but perhaps the discussions between you and your H should involved how you feel about those anonymous OW in the internet, or the seduction with words and how, upon reading what was going on when you discovered this, how this affected your real life emotions and feelings for your H?


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

I'm sorry friend. When he minimizes all this ordeal in order to not feel like crap he minimizes you feelings, invalidate them.
It's the "it could be worse" defense. It doesn't work. It makes it harder on you. 
Marriages end due this cheat.
Hope he start to get it soon. He clearly doesn't. He must stop defending himself, his self image. tell him to make his own research with online stuff/EAs, divorce...


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

So...by his reasoning, he is saying you are unworthy of feeling this extreme pain and guilt he choose to put you through because comparatively, he didn't hurt you as bad as he could have? 

And you are wanting to reconcile with this man why?


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

"Over the past several weeks we have communicated like crazy, we are in MC and he is completely open, transparent, very remorseful and riddled with shame & guilt. "

You are giving him way to much credit, and credit he has not earned. If he is minimalizing his secret, sexually explicit activity, he is not completely open, and he is not remoreseful. His actions are an attempt to stroke his ego and erase any guilt he might feel.
Guess what? He was unfaithful. That is why you were so crushed when you discovered it. Know why he was hiding it? Because he knew it was wrong and would hurt you. Having that much activity going on smacks of an addiction, but I'm not an expert.
You are feeling less than validated because he is not respecting you, or your emotions, still. If you MC is fine with this, then get another counselor. This is not a true R. In a true R, the WS would acknowledge your pain, not trivialize it. In a true R, the WS would lift heaven and earth to make you feel secure, not suggest it wasn't that bad to begin with.


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## brokenhearted118 (Jan 31, 2013)

Thank you all so much for your replies. Not sure if anyone has ever done this before, but as I stated, H and I are reading this site together and discussed my post above to make sure it is accurate for both of us. After reading the replies, my H feels misread and his reply below is what he is saying/feeling. Please reply back with your thoughts and suggestions of his interpretations of this.

*Husband's thoughts:* In no way am I minimizing what I did or minimizing her feelings at all. I was unfaithful, I betrayed her trust and severely hurt her. I realize an EA is an EA weather it's involving a woman you know or an anonymous OW. With that said, the point I was trying to make is that our situation/my wrong doing didn't seem as severe as the stories I read here i.e. my husband has been having an EA with a co-worker, I found 200 texts and emails and they have lunch together 3x a week, and are intertwined in one another's lives, the A has been going on for 3 months,etc.....I must say, every time my loving wife comes on here and reads me a new thread like the example I gave, I SMH, get a sick feeling and say to myself how can people do that. My point to her is that I was not emotionally invested in any other one person on a daily basis.

There is not a day that goes by, that I do not feel remorse and shame for what I did to her. There was/is no excuse....I F'd up and made a poor decision to engage in such stupid, phony sex talk to stroke my ego. At this point in our R process, I am trying 200%. We communicate about everything, I feel more connected to her emotionally and intimately than ever before. At the end of the day, I will do anything to regain her trust and live happily together forever. Does that make sense?


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

"I could have shot you in the leg, but I only gave you 2 black eyes. Don't you see how I could have done so much worse???"

Eh sorry but he sounds a bit clueless. If I were in his shoes I like to think I'd have enough common sense to not even try that line of logic.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

So...you had this EA online, for an ego boost. Because your ego needing boosting for whatever reason, or you had a mid-life crisis. 

And you say you still feel bad about what you did. Good. 
But you also point out, it could have been a helluva lot worse. 
So what good does that do? Are you expecting that your BS will magically heal faster than other BS that had a WS that had a long term EA, or a PA? 

So...is that another ego booster for him?
Like, "Yea, I may have had an online EA. But at least it didn't go physical!"


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## Twang (Mar 22, 2013)

I had the same thing happen to me it started with the cyber affair and he wrote me a letter stating i was the one blah blah blah and I basically swept it under the rug so to speak and yes he went to MC also to make a long story short my hubby claimed Mid Life crisis also he was 47 I discovered on March 10 that he has been having a PA for about a year just 6 months after he professed i was the one. i have been married 27 years and I am still trying to decide what to do. It starts out innocent enough but until your H realizes that what he did is as real as a PA I think you are in for a world of hurt and I dont want anyone to be where I am now. Good luck and I will pray for you both. Not sure if it matters but the H is 50 and the women he has messed with were also 20 years younger than him


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

He's wrong and disrespectful to argue the "severity" with you. He's in no position to do such a thing. An affair is an affair, and you were hurt and betrayed by his actions. Period.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## brokenhearted118 (Jan 31, 2013)

Thank you all so much for your replies so far. Any TAM "veterans" care to chime in? For some reason the opinions of others in affair situations is assuring. I just want to make sure our R is as real as it gets!


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

brokenhearted118 said:


> Thank you all so much for your replies so far. Any TAM "veterans" care to chime in? For some reason the opinions of others in affair situations is assuring. I just want to make sure our R is as real as it gets!


Last summer WS had an EA with a coworker that was about to turn physical but exposure/dday happened first. That said, that doesn't take away the severity of what I found out. The fact it hadn't gone physical was only a matter of timing and the EA was more than hurtful on its own. 

Back then WS tried to say things downplaying the severity of what he did but IMO, that was just his fog talking for him, shreds of guilt, whatever. Over time and with IC, and since snapping out of the fog, he understands what he did and the impact it's had on me, him, and our marriage. 

I don't know about others but that's the way it's worked for him/us. IMO, the WS has NO right whatsoever to determine how severe of an impact the affair should have on the BS. To me that's just beyond reproach.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

To your H:

What really is the point of arguing what you are arguing? Betrayal is betrayal. Pain is pain. This isn't a misery contest. If you want to help heal your W's wounds, wounds that you inflicted, why not just back off from arguing 'principles' like this? You broke her heart with what you did. That should be enough of an analysis. You broke your W's heart.


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## underwater2010 (Jun 27, 2012)

The simple line I used.....How would you feel if I had done the same thing? 

Give him time to let that sink in. Sometimes they just don't realize it. How long ago did you discover this information? 

I am not siding with him...but it does get easier. He is trying...let him know how much that means to you. Also, you said you were in MC with him. Maybe you should bring this up.


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## underwater2010 (Jun 27, 2012)

My FWH's EA lasted about a year. There were no ILY or we should leave the marriage. It was with one married woman. I have often been conflicted about the no ILYs. How could he do it if it meant nothing....but yet he was not in the place to leave. Hang in there. And realize that each person is allowed to feel the way the feel. Recognize both the errors in the marriage. That includes his wrong of the affairs and what lead there. Realize that she was not getting her needs met either.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

"My point to her is that I was not emotionally invested in any other 
one person on a daily basis."

You apparently do not understand that you also were not emotionally invested in your wife. That is at the heart of the betrayal she discovered. Everytime you were sexting with some other "random" female, you were selfishly putting your sexual desire for another woman over those for your wife, your marriage and your family. That is an ugly betrayal. The fact that you could have added a one-on-one physical betrayal to your misdeeds does not really matter to anyone, except apparently you. To put it bluntly, you were getting your rocks off with other women. With today's technology there no longer has to be a ONS in order to engage in infidelity with strangers.
I am not trying to beat you up here. And I honestly hope that you two succeed in your R. Until you appreciate that splitting hairs concerning the degree or depths of you infidelity will only derail any chances you two have to heal, there's no point in R. Best of luck to you both.


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## Aunt Ava (Jan 24, 2013)

I think you are being very generous to call Cybersexting and sexually explicit chats only an EA. So he didn't get "excited" and "turned on" and perhaps rub one or two or 20 out while participating in these explicit chats? IMO that makes it a PA as well as EA - because there was interaction between the involved participants....and as Alte Dame said, Betrayal is still betrayal. 

To H - Sure sounds like you are trying to minimize it by comparing your behavior to others. Consider yourself lucky she is willing to attempt reconciliation, if circumstances were different she may not have even considered it.


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

Pluto2 said:


> "My point to her is that I was not emotionally invested in any other
> one person on a daily basis."
> 
> You apparently do not understand that you also were not emotionally invested in your wife. That is at the heart of the betrayal she discovered. Everytime you were sexting with some other "random" female, you were selfishly putting your sexual desire for another woman over those for your wife, your marriage and your family. That is an ugly betrayal. The fact that you could have added a one-on-one physical betrayal to your misdeeds does not really matter to anyone, except apparently you. To put it bluntly, you were getting your rocks off with other women. With today's technology there no longer has to be a ONS in order to engage in infidelity with strangers.
> I am not trying to beat you up here. And I honestly hope that you two succeed in your R. Until you appreciate that splitting hairs concerning the degree or depths of you infidelity will only derail any chances you two have to heal, there's no point in R. Best of luck to you both.


:iagree:

Well said.


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## thesunwillcomeout (Jun 25, 2012)

Pluto2 said:


> "My point to her is that I was not emotionally invested in any other
> one person on a daily basis."
> 
> You apparently do not understand that you also were not emotionally invested in your wife. That is at the heart of the betrayal she discovered. Everytime you were sexting with some other "random" female, you were selfishly putting your sexual desire for another woman over those for your wife, your marriage and your family. That is an ugly betrayal. The fact that you could have added a one-on-one physical betrayal to your misdeeds does not really matter to anyone, except apparently you. To put it bluntly, you were getting your rocks off with other women. With today's technology there no longer has to be a ONS in order to engage in infidelity with strangers.
> I am not trying to beat you up here. And I honestly hope that you two succeed in your R. Until you appreciate that splitting hairs concerning the degree or depths of you infidelity will only derail any chances you two have to heal, there's no point in R. Best of luck to you both.


Exactly this!

WS: And there is a fog still sitting over you. To make yourself not as bad as others is a common reaction. 

My husband post DDay 2 had two meltdowns when he was overwhelmed with what he had done. He cried over and over "I am not a scumbag" (He had an EA with a co-worker that was on the verge of going physical.) Both my father and my brother cheated and my husband knew the damage it had done to me. He cried that he was not like them. 

Since coming out of the fog (and I'm sure there are remnants) he now says he was a scumbag. He no longer thinks his offense was less egregious -- he has empathy for me and for them (because there was a heavy price to pay). It was a huge betrayal. 

You were giving your lust and affection to others -- not your wife. I'm
assuming you made vows when you married, and if so those are broken. 

I'm sure you'd hate it if you found sex chats EXACTLY like yours between your wife and numerous other men. (And all of those tarts with whom you communicated, real quality material.). You are blessed and fortunate your wife is giving you a chance. She doesn't have to, but she's choosing it right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Pluto2 said:


> "My point to her is that I was not emotionally invested in any other
> one person on a daily basis."


It's the mindset, the intention behind what cuts.
This is the equivalent (at another level) of "it was just sex". Can't you see how if your wife had a string of ONSs had rather then focusing on how damaging it was she focused on what "was not"? (It's not an affair, I din't feel anything for those men...) I understand the urge but you must fight it. The minimizing attitude is very counterproductive.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

brokenhearted118 said:


> Thank you all so much for your replies. Not sure if anyone has ever done this before, but as I stated, H and I are reading this site together and discussed my post above to make sure it is accurate for both of us. After reading the replies, my H feels misread and his reply below is what he is saying/feeling. Please reply back with your thoughts and suggestions of his interpretations of this.
> 
> *Husband's thoughts:* In no way am I minimizing what I did or minimizing her feelings at all. I was unfaithful, I betrayed her trust and severely hurt her. I realize an EA is an EA weather it's involving a woman you know or an anonymous OW. With that said, the point I was trying to make is that our situation/my wrong doing didn't seem as severe as the stories I read here i.e. my husband has been having an EA with a co-worker, I found 200 texts and emails and they have lunch together 3x a week, and are intertwined in one another's lives, the A has been going on for 3 months,etc.....I must say, every time my loving wife comes on here and reads me a new thread like the example I gave, I SMH, get a sick feeling and say to myself how can people do that. My point to her is that I was not emotionally invested in any other one person on a daily basis.
> 
> There is not a day that goes by, that I do not feel remorse and shame for what I did to her. There was/is no excuse....I F'd up and made a poor decision to engage in such stupid, phony sex talk to stroke my ego. At this point in our R process, I am trying 200%. We communicate about everything, I feel more connected to her emotionally and intimately than ever before. At the end of the day, I will do anything to regain her trust and live happily together forever. Does that make sense?


Husband, you are minimising. Stop it.

You are doing yourself no favours.

You affair was bad enough. And bad enough is bad enough.

You appear to want your wife to be grateful you only broke her heart and didn't -say- risk her health by giving her an STD by having a physical affair.


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## Robsia (Mar 11, 2013)

"I only had sex with one woman. I could have been worse. It could have been five, like that other bloke on that forum. Therefore I am not as bad as him, therefore you are over-reacting."

Does that make any sense?

No?

Well, your argument, husband, makes about as much sense.

You hurt your wife. Start making it up to her.


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## Busy Accountant (Mar 15, 2013)

Broken and husband of broken

I have not posted my story on here (yet) but my H was in EA's with multiple business colleagues from different states. They were also primarily conducted online and get this, they were not sexual, but nevertheless were very intimate and emotional. The fact that they were EA's was confirmed by H, the MC and my own IC, but with all of the work we have both done to recover, I still struggle with trying to define these relationships. We are 13 months into R. Perhaps its that time of year, but right now it hurts every day. 

H - Your actions were a betrayal, regardless of how "severe". If you break a bridge, it doesn't matter if you use a bomb or a sledge hammer, or if it just fell down, you still can't cross the river. Make sense? I suspect you two exchanged vows, and they were for way more than just sexual/physical fidelity. Honor, love, nurture, all those things build intimacy and its the intimacy that sustains us through the dirty socks on the floor, skids marks in the tighty-whities, one too many burps at the dinner table. H - Did any of the women you chatted with ever smell your morning breath? Did you smell theirs? Broken didn't stand a chance against those fantasies. By your chatting, you exposed your intimate thoughts (sexual or otherwise) to others who had never earned the right to hear them. That is a HUGE betrayal. Broken earned your trust and affection. Now you have to earn her back.

H, my sense is that you are a truly remorseful person. Broken says that about you. Therefore, I"m going to treat you that way. You need to think about why you would say what you do. Is it to make you feel better? Or is it to try to reduce Broken's pain? You say you get a sick feeling in your stomach when you read some of the stories on here. Broken feels that way every day. Trust me, I know. Don't try to minimize her pain. Since ya'll are talking so well, perhaps she can tell you what she needs when she feels bad. Just be prepared, it lasts a LONG time! Our MC asked me at one point if I wanted my H to feel as bad as I did. I answered yes.

Don't be afraid of Broken's emotions. Sometimes my H thought we had taken a giant step backward when it was really just a matter of me venting. She needs to let it all out, so love and trust and intimacy can come back in. There is no room in anyone's soul for hurt and anger/ love, trust and intimacy. They just don't exist in the same place. Our MC didn't help me deal with my anger at all. He basically told me to "pray it away". Although I am a woman of faith, I basically heard...suppress it. That's when I found the IC. She stuck a punching bag in front of me....now THAT helped! 

H - Information helps as well, at least for me. The relationships I was able to process best are the ones where I have the most information. My H tried to delete emails as I was printing them......big mistake and he knows it now. He said he panicked and figured me reading more than I already had would make things worse. Actually it would have helped if I had seen them. Now all I have is his word and my imagination. Answer all of Broken's questions in the most loving way possible.

Broken - Well, please take this with a grain of salt.... men can be really DUMB. Just so you know: H said about the woman I found the most despicable......"You would have liked her if you had met her in a different situation". Thank GOD the kids weren't home when that sh*t hit the fan!

The best to you both.


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

I think he fvcked up and even if he *FEELS* it was less then what you think. He should stop minimizing it and accept he fvcked up and should take his beating like a man. 

Okay lets say for example you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Does it really matter in the grand scheme of things ? Does he love you ? Does he honestly love you so much that he can't see his life without you ? If so STFU and help fix this. 

Personally my wife treated me like sh1t but all I can say is I love her. I would cut my right arm off to fix this disaster. But sadly I know nothing will fix this. So I play the hard a$$ when all I want to do is reach out and hold her. We don't talk anymore after a 19 year and 2 kids. But all I want to do is tell her how much I love her and will miss her. 

Your man needs to have a real hard reality check and then maybe once his a$$hole puckers up so small that a gnat can't get in or out. Then maybe once he see's what he is loosing. Then maybe he will do whatever is needed to fix this with you..


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

I agree with what everyone is saying. And I'd like to point out that the number of women in that span of time indicates addictive behavior. It also indicates that h was extremely involved in this. How much time did he spend looking for these women and chatting with them? 

Also sometimes BS's find it even harder to deal with randomness than with an EA. Honestly I think what you did is as bad if not worse than someone who is texting in an EA with one person. 
It's the easy betrayal of your vows that hurts. Some people find that harder to deal with than an emotional tie. 
If you want to truly reconcile stop focusing on trying to make yourself look better. I bet if you added up all time you spent in 30 days looking for and talking to other women online inappropriately it would be a lot more time than a lot of people spend on an EA or PA. 

But that's beside the point. You are lucky she wants to make it work. If it were me I wouldnt care if it was physical sex or not, you would be out the door.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Yessongs72 (Dec 6, 2012)

brokenhearted118 said:


> *Husband's thoughts:* ...With that said, the point I was trying to make is that our situation/my wrong doing didn't seem as severe as the stories I read here i.e. my husband has been having an EA with a co-worker, I found 200 texts and emails and they have lunch together 3x a week, and are intertwined in one another's lives, the A has been going on for 3 months,etc...


The quantity/severeness has nothing to do with it. Once is too much. My WW is in an affair with a significant ex, but (compared to many on this site) it is low intensity - they have physically been with each other twice in the last six months, their texts are tens (not hundreds) a week, they spend a max of 45minutes a week phoning. Many posters here do not believe it can be this 'small' (for want of a better word), but I cant find anything else and cant find them opportunity for anything else - they may email at work but that's it. My point is this - when I do catch them, when I have a (legally) acceptable proof - she will be the same amount of divorced as if they had shagged each other weekly. It hurts just the same.


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## brokenhearted118 (Jan 31, 2013)

I want to thank all of you so much for taking the time to reply and shed your guidance on this matter. Most of the replies were very helpful and allowed H and I to have a clearer understanding of where I was coming from. By all of you validating my feelings helped me as well, because I truly started questioning myself and wondering if I was not seeing his point of view. It felt so wrong, hence that is why I turned here for better clarification. 

As an added bonus, a few of you mentioned that maybe my H was finding his "justification" to make himself feel better (less guilty). After bringing that to light, he said, maybe that is what was happening and he is now using that information to be more self reflective. Your answers really are a win-win for us. Again..thanks so much!


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

brokenhearted118 said:


> I want to thank all of you so much for taking the time to reply and shed your guidance on this matter. Most of the replies were very helpful and allowed H and I to have a clearer understanding of where I was coming from. By all of you validating my feelings helped me as well, because I truly started questioning myself and wondering if I was not seeing his point of view. It felt so wrong, hence that is why I turned here for better clarification.
> 
> As an added bonus, a few of you mentioned that maybe my H was finding his "justification" to make himself feel better (less guilty). After bringing that to light, he said, maybe that is what was happening and he is now using that information to be more self reflective. Your answers really are a win-win for us. Again..thanks so much!


Oh, Husband, how did I know what you were doing? Because I did the same sort if thing myself...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

brokenhearted118 said:


> As an added bonus, a few of you mentioned that maybe my H was finding his "justification" to make himself feel better (less guilty). After bringing that to light, he said, maybe that is what was happening and he is now using that information to be more self reflective. Your answers really are a win-win for us. Again..thanks so much!


He knows. It's human, natural. Defense mechanism are ther to protect us. How like to feel like crap about themselves?
It's counterproductive is this kid of situation thou. He just has to fight this urge to help himself and you.

Good luck.


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