# Shut this Taco-stand down



## Sauvie Island (Jul 4, 2018)

Perusing the world-wide-web today and happened upon this gem:

https://affairadvice.wordpress.com/2012/11/19/mistakes-in-affair-recovery/

*Relying on advice from “Infidelity” Message Boards:* 
_They are almost always dominated by militant, angry and bitter Betrayed Spouses, who usually have a huge chip on their shoulders. Former Cheaters are rarely welcome there unless they are the complete self-loathing variety.
And because they all say the same thing, they must be right, huh? Don’t buy it. They just don’t allow other opinions on their boards. And most of those people are either divorced or will be divorced.
But beware of forums at marriagebuilders.com or survivinginfidelity.com and others like them. Beware frankly of only reading blogs by Betrayed Spouses._

a couple of revelations that struck me down on my way to Emmaus:

1) Collective wisdom is apparently overrated. You suck.

2) This website is not hardcore enough to warrant a name-drop, but still technically falls within his definition lol.


I really only bring this up because if I had stumbled upon that site a couple of years ago when I was married to a serial cheat, things may have been handled differently by myself (e.g. reconciliation)...and _I'd still be getting cheated on today_.

No one is really ever prepared for_ that_ life event to transpire; so, the 'Law of Firsts'. The first helpful information you receive many times makes the biggest impression.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Unfortunately comments are closed after only 32 comments. I wonder why? 

Some of the remarks are valid up to a point but I can't help thinking the author of that post is a bloviating twit who knows less, much less, than they really do know.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

Yeah nothing like acquiring wisdom from those that have been through it. 

That sounds like some Blue Pill nonsense.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Interesting. I think the advice here is mostly really good, and it seems way more balanced and less cultish than the sites that were name-dropped.


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## Jus260 (Mar 24, 2016)

The article was probably written by a serial cheater. This is exactly what you would expect one to say. They wouldn't want the person they cheated on to stumble upon a website that advises them to get out of infidelity. If that author thinks Marriage Builders and SI are harsh, they definitely don't want their spouse ending up here.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

> © COPYRIGHT 2004, 2007, 2013 *Recovering Wayward* Enterprises, LLC


:lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol:


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Jus260 said:


> The article was probably written by a serial cheater. This is exactly what you would expect one to say. They wouldn't want the person they cheated on to stumble upon a website that advises them to get out of infidelity. If that author thinks Marriage Builders and SI are harsh, they definitely don't want their spouse ending up here.


Honestly, I think this site is more balanced. Both MB and SI have absolute party lines that one must espouse or be banned. MB especially is a totalitarian cookie-cutter site. That said, there are MANY helpful MB principles, and I would recommend Surviving an Affair to everyone. But the less than a dozen people who regularly post on the forum can be.....well let's just say cyber-stalking and bullying are in their arsenal.

Well, I think "one voice only" sites are not the best option.

Again, the Marriage Builders principles are excellent, and Harley is a smart man.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

MattMatt said:


> Unfortunately comments are closed after only 32 comments. I wonder why?
> 
> Some of the remarks are valid up to a point but I can't help thinking the author of that post is a bloviating twit who knows less, much less, than they really do know.


Comments were open from 2012 to 2014. Many blogs are set to close comments after a certain period of time. My site has that setting.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Possibly written by marriage counselor or individual counselor or church counselor who doesn't like anyone poaching on their revenue. 

Democracy and exposure is a fearful thing to tyrants and monopolists.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

MattMatt said:


> Unfortunately comments are closed after only 32 comments. I wonder why?
> 
> Some of the remarks are valid up to a point but I can't help thinking the author of that post is a bloviating twit who knows less, much less, than they really do know.


I actually don't think that those comments or ones like them are valid. 

We can debate the reconcile or not issue, and there are valid opinions on both sides. 

But to debate, discovery, confrontation, things that are necessary for reconciliation, what self-respect is and things like that... I don't think that there really is a wide range of opinions, in my mind that are valid.

There are things that are debatable and things that are not. For me, and I think most healthy individuals, if you discover an affair, if there ever were to be a chance a R, then the affair has to end now, expose to everyone, and don't let the WS breath until they leave or wake up and start doing the work. 

Sites that think like the one in the OP, do a disservice to people in infidelity. And in the long run, if you don't handle it properly, then you are in for more pain and suffering.

My 2 Cents...


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

CynthiaDe said:


> Comments were open from 2012 to 2014. Many blogs are set to close comments after a certain period of time. My site has that setting.


I use Blogger.com which doesn't do that.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

TAMAT said:


> Possibly written by marriage counselor or individual counselor or church counselor who doesn't like anyone poaching on their revenue.
> 
> Democracy and exposure is a fearful thing to tyrants and monopolists.


Yeah, I noticed Gus highlighted their "inc."

Considering their intended audience, no wonder they are so "sensitive" about the blunt truth.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

As a WS I'll call BS on that... I received TONS of help here. Can't say I received much "understanding" but why the hell should I have? When I was genuinely seeking advice on how to help my wife recover or what I should do/not do I got it. When I said things that were WS bullsh!t I got my ass handed to me - and it helped. In reality that was what probably helped the most, the no mercy, no holds barred 2x4's when I tried to stick my head back up my ass. I owe the BS here who were willing to help me a huge debt.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

sigma1299 said:


> As a WS I'll call BS on that... I received TONS of help here. Can't say I received much "understanding" but why the hell should I have? When I was genuinely seeking advice on how to help my wife recover or what I should do/not do I got it. When I said things that were WS bullsh!t I got my ass handed to me - and it helped. In reality that was what probably helped the most, the no mercy, no holds barred 2x4's when I tried to stick my head back up my ass. I owe the BS here who were willing to help me a huge debt.



This is good to know. I've seen some other WS get helpful advice here too.

And no one had to take it upon themselves to break the law to do it - imagine that!


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## blazer prophet (Jun 1, 2019)

I spent some time perusing the blog. There's some good info and some wrong and some bad info to it. One this.... the author clearly hasn't been betrayed. It's a tainted POV.


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## hptessla (Jun 4, 2019)

Sauvie Island said:


> Perusing the world-wide-web today and happened upon this gem:
> 
> https://affairadvice.wordpress.com/2012/11/19/mistakes-in-affair-recovery/
> 
> ...


I have to say, after reading that blog, that I found it to be very much along the lines that I have arrived at in my own quest of trying to rebuild after my wife's affair. I am sure that no two situations are alike and that personalities involved in every relationship are different. You reference your ex as a serial cheater, that is a separate situation and hopefully not one in which the majority of people find themselves. There are people who are simply bad and will remain so. However, I tend to think that most people are not inherently bad...probably most are generally decent but self interested. I strongly agree, unless the cheater is simply a bad person, that the cheater is never getting off scot free. They may not be consciously aware of the internal cost of their cheating but there is a cost. If nothing else they have inflicted harm to their reputation and self image regardless of how they rationalize it. They have made a habit of lying to the point where it is now a casual habit. Cheating is an objective evil, it's not ambiguous, it comes with a cost.

As far as the comments about the type of people who dominate the infidelity message boards I will say that I (as a new member who posted my story of being cheated on by my wife) find this board to be a mixed bag. The strongest reactions I get seem to be from men who have been cheated on, went the divorce route and remain quite bitter. That does not sound to me like a good outcome. Reading those responses did help solidify my own intuition of going the opposite way. I may look like a fool in the end, but I cannot see a way to get to (I do not say get 'back to') a marriage that truly works without love and forgiveness. I do not want to expend the energy to become policeman to my wife. I did not like the fact that she can still say that she's not sure if she wants in on the marriage beyond staying for the children four months after D-Day. I do not like the fact that I cannot fully trust her, at almost six months after D-Day, when she says that she does want it to work and wants to reconcile.
I do know that had I allowed my baser side to take over we would not be at this point now. I also know that for me pursuing divorce is not a means of living up to my own marriage vows. Since the content of those vows is central to my values, morals and identity I see no way of breaking them and remaining a whole person. My wife has broken them, she has broken herself in doing that. My reciprocal breaking of those vows in response to her actions enhances my well being how exactly?
So, I think the content of the blog is valid; if not in saving a marriage at least in saving the BS from self inflicted harm.


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## blazer prophet (Jun 1, 2019)

The author is a betrayer. He betrayed his wife for 2 years. Now he is sort of a betrayer's advocate. While he thinks it's good to admit to an affair, he also supports living the lie.


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## FieryHairedLady (Mar 24, 2011)

"Shut this Taco-stand down"

Darn, I thought this was going to be a thread about a cheating wife.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

blazer prophet said:


> I spent some time perusing the blog. There's some good info and some wrong and some bad info to it. One this.... the author clearly hasn't been betrayed. It's a tainted POV.


That's because he is the betrayer.


> I’m Jack. I’m a Floridian. I’m a 47 year-old (at the time I wrote this), partially disabled Army veteran who works in financial services in the private sector now. And yes, I am a former cheater – a “recovering wayward spouse”. I ended an almost 2 year affair in 2011.


I wonder if he was ripped apart or his wife used one to expose him. If he was general, I'd chalk it up to a bad experience. When you specifically name two websites, with no explanation and generalizations, I tend to wonder what really happened.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

blazer prophet said:


> The author is a betrayer. He betrayed his wife for 2 years. Now he is sort of a betrayer's advocate. While he thinks it's good to admit to an affair, he also *supports living the lie*.


That's called Blue Pill life.
Take the Blue Pill, live the lie.
Take the Red Pill awaken to the truth.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

hptessla said:


> I have to say, after reading that blog, that I found it to be very much along the lines that I have arrived at in my own quest of trying to rebuild after my wife's affair. I am sure that no two situations are alike and that personalities involved in every relationship are different. You reference your ex as a serial cheater, that is a separate situation and hopefully not one in which the majority of people find themselves. There are people who are simply bad and will remain so. However, I tend to think that most people are not inherently bad...probably most are generally decent but self interested. I strongly agree, unless the cheater is simply a bad person, that the cheater is never getting off scot free. They may not be consciously aware of the internal cost of their cheating but there is a cost. If nothing else they have inflicted harm to their reputation and self image regardless of how they rationalize it. They have made a habit of lying to the point where it is now a casual habit. Cheating is an objective evil, it's not ambiguous, it comes with a cost.
> 
> As far as the comments about the type of people who dominate the infidelity message boards I will say that I (as a new member who posted my story of being cheated on by my wife) find this board to be a mixed bag. The strongest reactions I get seem to be from men who have been cheated on, went the divorce route and remain quite bitter. That does not sound to me like a good outcome. Reading those responses did help solidify my own intuition of going the opposite way..


Yes, everyone is bitter when they disagree with your particular position. 


Exactly the same can be said about his blog. Let's not forget, he was giving advice in the beginning of his reconciliation. He told her at some point in 2011 and a year or less later was talking about how bad marriage boards are and bias?


Pot meet kettle...much.


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## hptessla (Jun 4, 2019)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Yes, everyone is bitter when they disagree with your particular position.
> 
> 
> Exactly the same can be said about his blog. Let's not forget, he was giving advice in the beginning of his reconciliation. He told her at some point in 2011 and a year or less later was talking about how bad marriage boards are and bias?
> ...


No, disagreement is not a sign of bitterness. I have no problem with disagreement but when people ridicule and snark because I choose not to jump to divorce or take the 'man up' advice, which are not solutions leading to saving a marriage but steps in a power struggle I do call it bitterness.


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## Jus260 (Mar 24, 2016)

> © COPYRIGHT 2004, 2007, 2013 Recovering Wayward Enterprises, LLC





GusPolinski said:


> :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol:


At first I thought you were just ****ing with me when you posted that. That quote is 100% legit.

That proves it was written by a serial cheater. That article is actually 7 years old. I wasn't here back then. I don't know if this site had that type of juice to mentioned in his article back then.


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## Sauvie Island (Jul 4, 2018)

hptessla said:


> I have to say, after reading that blog, that I found it to be very much along the lines that I have arrived at in my own quest of trying to rebuild after my wife's affair. I am sure that no two situations are alike and that personalities involved in every relationship are different. You reference your ex as a serial cheater, that is a separate situation and hopefully not one in which the majority of people find themselves. There are people who are simply bad and will remain so. However, I tend to think that most people are not inherently bad...probably most are generally decent but self interested. I strongly agree, unless the cheater is simply a bad person, that the cheater is never getting off scot free. They may not be consciously aware of the internal cost of their cheating but there is a cost. If nothing else they have inflicted harm to their reputation and self image regardless of how they rationalize it. They have made a habit of lying to the point where it is now a casual habit. Cheating is an objective evil, it's not ambiguous, it comes with a cost.
> 
> As far as the comments about the type of people who dominate the infidelity message boards I will say that I (as a new member who posted my story of being cheated on by my wife) find this board to be a mixed bag. The strongest reactions I get seem to be from men who have been cheated on, went the divorce route and remain quite bitter. That does not sound to me like a good outcome. Reading those responses did help solidify my own intuition of going the opposite way. I may look like a fool in the end, but I cannot see a way to get to (I do not say get 'back to') a marriage that truly works without love and forgiveness. I do not want to expend the energy to become policeman to my wife. I did not like the fact that she can still say that she's not sure if she wants in on the marriage beyond staying for the children four months after D-Day. I do not like the fact that I cannot fully trust her, at almost six months after D-Day, when she says that she does want it to work and wants to reconcile.
> I do know that had I allowed my baser side to take over we would not be at this point now. I also know that for me pursuing divorce is not a means of living up to my own marriage vows. Since the content of those vows is central to my values, morals and identity I see no way of breaking them and remaining a whole person. My wife has broken them, she has broken herself in doing that. My reciprocal breaking of those vows in response to her actions enhances my well being how exactly?
> So, I think the content of the blog is valid; if not in saving a marriage at least in saving the BS from self inflicted harm.


My point was subjective and very unabashedly narrow, you are correct. 
I think he purchased the cult leader starter pack.

Your "baser side"? Since when is self-respect a lower function?

Keeping others from the information, the collective wisdom of those who have experienced the *PATTERNS*, is BS. After reading story upon story, it becomes much like staring at Matrix code...you just see them and the script...and the last thing you want is for some other poor schmuck to blindly eat all those warm, tasty sandwiches. This site is more tempered, balanced out; but if you want someone to not be opinionated (i.e. bitter) after realizing their past decade or two was all a lie, that may be a bridge too far, and it's not a bad thing.

He was clearly burned by the truth. 
He clearly invalidates himself by insisting he has the answers and you are not mature enough to filter through others jaded but life empowering views.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

hptessla said:


> No, disagreement is not a sign of bitterness. I have no problem with disagreement but when people ridicule and snark because I choose not to jump to divorce or take the 'man up' advice, which are not solutions leading to saving a marriage but steps in a power struggle I do call it bitterness.


It is when someone is being disinegenous and changing stories to fit their narrative. Man up advice is fine, as well as snark in the proper context. Is it for everyone nope, but to generalize everyone giving advice as "bitter" is what this dude does with disagreement.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Jus260 said:


> At first I thought you were just ****ing with me when you posted that. That quote is 100% legit.
> 
> That proves it was written by a serial cheater. That article is actually 7 years old. I wasn't here back then. I don't know if this site had that type of juice to mentioned in his article back then.


Two of us aren't guessing, we took his 2 year affair from his "about me" page.


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## hairyhead (Oct 30, 2015)

They are almost always dominated by militant, angry and bitter Betrayed Spouses, who usually have a huge chip on their shoulders. Former Cheaters are rarely welcome there unless they are the complete self-loathing variety.

As a lurker who has not experienced any infedility at all but who is in a less than perfect marriage, there is an element of accuracy in what is quoted above.

I've seen several threads where I believe the advice comes from a source of embittered experience which is very biased and not at all balanced. Sometimes I wonder why the OP comes back given what is said, asked and advised. 

There always seems to be a thread of "tell us what they did together" which seems to be out of place and reminiscent of titillation. 

No doubt I'll get my (fair) share of criticism now.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> There always seems to be a thread of "tell us what they did together" which seems to be out of place and reminiscent of titillation.


Yep, this I can agree with. I don't have to know sex positions and whether or not there was anal to give advice.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

hairyhead said:


> They are almost always dominated by militant, angry and bitter Betrayed Spouses, who usually have a huge chip on their shoulders. Former Cheaters are rarely welcome there unless they are the complete self-loathing variety.
> 
> As a lurker who has not experienced any infedility at all but who is in a less than perfect marriage, there is an element of accuracy in what is quoted above.
> 
> ...


It's the internet... just like real life there are idiots everywhere, more so when they can hide behind a keyboard. Did I get absolutely flamed and totally off the handle responses just telling me to go flush my head in a toilet? Absolutely. But if you think, as a WS, you're going to step into a marriage support forum and more specifically an infidelity support room and not get a few drinks thrown in your face you're probably not being realistic. Realistic about both of the board and that as a WS you deserve a few drinks thrown in your face. 

If you want help you but on your big boy pants, look past the people so hurt to do anything but vent their own pain, and take the constructive advice when you get it. Sometimes that good advice is a 2x4 across the face even if it sometimes it sounds like venting. It was never too hard for me to tell the difference. The venting just rolled off me. The 2x4's hurt and rightfully so and they're what helped.


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## hairyhead (Oct 30, 2015)

Fair point about the 4x2s however after a 4x2 point is made it is usually followed by another 4x2 then a 2x2 then a pair of 6x2s and so on.

It just smacks of kicking a man when he is down, repeatedly.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

hairyhead said:


> Fair point about the 4x2s however after a 4x2 point is made it is usually followed by another 4x2 then a 2x2 then a pair of 6x2s and so on.
> 
> It just smacks of kicking a man when he is down, repeatedly.


Also a fair point and pile on's can definitely happen. The people I worry about most though are the BS who come to places like this and get told it's hopeless and to just go straight to D regardless. I get it, after I spent several years very active here I was even guilty of it on rare occasion. But, it's not right. No matter how much every situation seems to follow the same nauseating script they are in fact all different. Every BS is different, every WS, every marriage and IMO until you've invested the time in getting to know the details it's bad advice to tell someone to just lawyer up and flush the marriage. There are def situations where D is good advice but there are others where it's not.


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## Jus260 (Mar 24, 2016)

hptessla said:


> The strongest reactions I get seem to be from men who have been cheated on, went the divorce route and remain quite bitter.



Don't assume they got divorced. There are plenty on this board and other boards who talk like they took the advice they give to new posters but in reality, they were cheated on and reconciled. That doesn't necessarily mean the advice they give is wrong.


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## Music_Man (Feb 25, 2017)

I, for one, am glad I found this board. I wanted differing opinions and some tough love. It's been extremely therapeutic just talking about my issues with folks that have been there.

Yes, there are some extremists. This is also the way it is in life- people have different viewpoints- imagine that!

I think the mods here also do an excellent job of allowing folks to 'keep it real' without letting them go off the deep end, or engage in ignorant sparring. 

Just like the real world- I ignore those who I feel are giving poor or tainted advice, or who try to 'steer' a thread into their own personal reality show.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

sigma1299 said:


> Also a fair point and pile on's can definitely happen. The people I worry about most though are the BS who come to places like this and get told it's hopeless and to just go straight to D regardless. I get it, after I spent several years very active here I was even guilty of it on rare occasion. But, it's not right. No matter how much every situation seems to follow the same nauseating script they are in fact all different. Every BS is different, every WS, every marriage and IMO until you've invested the time in getting to know the details it's bad advice to tell someone to just lawyer up and flush the marriage. There are def situations where D is good advice but there are others where it's not.


Not picking on you, as you have made some good posts in this thread... 

However, what some of the BS's don't seem and it appears that they never will, is that there is a right way, and a wrong way to handle this stuff. 

Those that don't have to balls to do what has to be done, whine about the those that have lives though it and come out the other side... 

Now are some of the posters too hard, yes, that very well may be... 

But most of the BS's that get the 2x4s are weak people that will not stand up for themselves... 

That is not way to live. To stay with someone that does not love you, that does not respect your, and deep down you let your self-respect go in the toilet.... no that is not that way.

What you have to do with infidelity is meet it head on, if they want to leave let them go and start a new life. 

It is not always about divorce, it is about being strong, it is about looking out for you, it is about not allowing yourself to be abused...


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## Music_Man (Feb 25, 2017)

sigma1299 said:


> Also a fair point and pile on's can definitely happen. The people I worry about most though are the BS who come to places like this and get told it's hopeless and to just go straight to D regardless. I get it, after I spent several years very active here I was even guilty of it on rare occasion. But, it's not right. No matter how much every situation seems to follow the same nauseating script they are in fact all different. Every BS is different, every WS, every marriage and IMO until you've invested the time in getting to know the details it's bad advice to tell someone to just lawyer up and flush the marriage. There are def situations where D is good advice but there are others where it's not.


Agree 100%. Every situation is unique. Even though some tendencies cross over to all affairs, the circumstances can be vastly different. 

This is a big reason why my OP in my story thread (and a few of the follow up posts) read more like a mini-novel than a post. If I was coming to get advice, I wanted to be darn sure that folks had as much information as I can give them on a public forum. 

In my lurking days, I would always get frustrated when someone would drop a vague post to the effect of: "I found a text where a coworker told my W/H that they liked their shoes. Should I be worried?" Only to get 80 posts into the thread to say "they also gave them the same shoes as a gift for oral sex" or something similar. 

Each situation is unique, and the devil can most certainly be in the details!


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

BluesPower said:


> Not picking on you, as you have made some good posts in this thread...
> 
> However, what some of the BS's don't seem and it appears that they never will, is that there is a right way, and a wrong way to handle this stuff.
> 
> ...


Oh I couldn't agree more and that's what I fell guilty of when I was last really active here. You read it so many times and in some circumstances you can see straight to the bad end and you just know the OP is going to drag themselves through every agonizing step. Steps that if they would be willing to listen and hear the advice they were getting they could avoid... it almost got to be like fatigue. I think most of the people that were active when I was did what I did and just couldn't read anymore and give objective advice. There's a reason most are active here for only so long.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

sigma1299 said:


> Oh I couldn't agree more and that's what I fell guilty of when I was last really active here. You read it so many times and in some circumstances you can see straight to the bad end and you just know the OP is going to drag themselves through every agonizing step. Steps that if they would be willing to listen and hear the advice they were getting they could avoid... it almost got to be like fatigue. I think most of the people that were active when I was did what I did and just couldn't read anymore and give objective advice. There's a reason most are active here for only so long.


Yes that is what I HATE to see. Some of these threads, one going on right now, you can see what is going on. You can see the BS, usually male, that has allowed themselves to convince themselves that they really know more than the thousands of years of collective experience is telling them that what they are doing is wrong and it will end up hurting them more in the long run... 

I have seen to so many time. On the other hand, you can lead a horse to water...


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## Imajerk17 (Apr 10, 2018)

Sadly I don't think this perspective--that expressed by the author on the blog--is all that rare.

The betrayed spouse--both genders--is often told to just get over it. Either 'why can't you just accept his cheating it's just the way it is, boys will be boys' or 'you need to look within yourself instead, there must have been something missing from the marriage that caused her to stray'. Complete nonsense btw. Many therapists also seem to be more about making their clients--such as the WS who seeks out counseling--feel better or "find themselves" along the lines of "Eat Pray Love" than they are about holding them accountable for their choices that cause pain in others.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> It is not always about divorce, it is about being strong, it is about looking out for you, it is about not allowing yourself to be abused...


Yet there is a very vocal contingent here who equate strength with divorce. As in, one cannot be strong and remain with a WS, under just about any circumstances.

These are followed by those who don't think the BS has to look inward to decide if anything in their contribution to the marriage may have made an affair likely.

One-size-fits-all advice. Be strong. Dump that WS yesterday 



Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

"
However, what some of the BS's don't seem and it appears that they never will, is that there is a right way, and a wrong way to handle this stuff"

According to whom? Guys who abandon children and stay with their wives but refuse to celebrate any holiday with them?


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Cletus said:


> Yet there is a very vocal contingent here who equate strength with divorce. As in, one cannot be strong and remain with a WS, under just about any circumstances.
> 
> These are followed by those who don't think the BS has to look inward to decide if anything in their contribution to the marriage may have made an affair likely.
> 
> ...


 And there is a counter vocal contingent that blames the victim in just as many cases. Sound familiar?


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

I don't know. I read the linked page (but not other pages of the site), and most (but not all) of the points seemed like good advice for those who want to reconcile. I don't think it says you should always R, it says here is what *not *to do *if* you want to R. 

For example, violence; leaning on the kids; believing the WS _immediately _when they say it's over; trusting them because they gave you the phone password (they probably have another phone), trying to woo them back. All big mistakes. No? And trying to police them into fidelity. That's no way to live. I agreed with the piece on that.

And I guess the one that's got people's backs up here: refusing to consider that the marriage might have had problems. "A poor marriage is not an excuse for an affair" it clearly says, but if you want to R, you have to separate blame for the affair (100% on the WS) from underlying problems (usually present). Nowhere does it say "accept it" or "just get over it". Either I read the wrong page, or I don't understand what you guys saw that you disagree with?


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Cletus said:


> Yet there is a very vocal contingent here who equate strength with divorce. As in, one cannot be strong and remain with a WS, under just about any circumstances.
> 
> These are followed by those who don't think the BS has to look inward to decide if anything in their contribution to the marriage may have made an affair likely.
> 
> ...





personofinterest said:


> "
> However, what some of the BS's don't seem and it appears that they never will, is that there is a right way, and a wrong way to handle this stuff"
> 
> According to whom? Guys who abandon children and stay with their wives but refuse to celebrate any holiday with them?


See both of these posts put up a straw man argument. 

And I think both of those straw men don't hold up to scrutiny. 

@personofinterest, I don't think anyone has ever said that ANYONE that gets divorced should abandon their children. And if they had, I think they should be lambasted forever. 

No one is saying that. Some people do that without infidelity and I assume some do that where infidelity is involved. But I don't recall anyone suggesting that abandoning innocent children is the right thing to do. Because it is not under any circumstances. 

Further, @Cletus, since when had anything that the BETRAYED Spouse did or did not do, MAKE the WS cheat. If it was that bad, then get a divorce. Or heaven forbid, talk about it. 

Further again, I think the proper and the standard line is you are responsible for 50% of the marriage but the wayward is responsible for 100% of the cheating. How can it be any other way. 

And still, I think most, not all but most, of the posters here support No Longer Lonely in his reconciliation. 

Even if we disagree with some aspects, we applaud his success in reconciliation. 

However, His is one of the few cases where the WW woke up almost immediately, and realized that she had been a horrible person that made horrible choices and she was horrified with the prospect of losing him. 

She was wrong in her cheating, if it was that bad, she should have divorced. But once she woke up, she made changes and fought for her husband, and her marriage. 

Frankly, NLLH had all of the proper behaviors that allowed him to reconcile, and I think most of us agree with his decision. 

So I don't really see how these two posts hold any water. 

However, BS's that do the pick me dance and put up with the abuse heaped on them, is doing themselves and their children a disservice and in the long run, causing much more pain for everyone...


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> Interesting. I think the advice here is mostly really good, and it seems way more balanced and less cultish than the sites that were name-dropped.


I couldn't agree more. I was laughing at how much I agree with what this guy is saying. I think he might be my spirit animal.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

One of the things I have always questioned on this board is if it really would make a difference at all if a WS actually didn't cheat. But instead just told their spouse I am not into you anymore and I want to end this. IMO, I do agree with the sentiment that this is far better than stepping out via an exit affair/s. With that said....I have serious doubts that it would make the spouse that was left behind feel any better. I think they'd be hurt either way. In some cases depending on the person. It might make them feel worse. Like you're leaving me and there isn't even anyone else? We are all different...not every situation is one size fits all. I guess my issue is this place tends to to treat things as if everything is one size fits all. 

Full disclosure I was a serial wayward, and I did a lot of things out of guilt that made things worse. Waywards that get raked over the coals often enter into these "false reconciliations" because they actually do feel bad. IMO exposing them actually only makes it more likely that they will try to work on things....even though they don't want really want to....out of guilt. Just a different perspective...that I am sure no one will care about. Carry on...nothing to see here...LoL.


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## Sauvie Island (Jul 4, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> See both of these posts put up a straw man argument.
> 
> And I think both of those straw men don't hold up to scrutiny.
> 
> ...


They hold water but within a very narrow context. *Context is rife...because human nature is predictable on a larger scale.* Therefore more generalized 'rules' can be voiced.

Did the wayward remain in a fog and leave with the AP?
Did the wayward stay and beg and plead?
Is the wayward a serial cheat?

Serial= auto-divorce in my book 97% of the time.

I feel many of these stories are more sinister than the betrayed realizes at the time of posting. They see harmless flirting, or a ONS coupled with an aloof spouse and don't realize ****s been going on for years; that's how their parents behaved, so that must just be normal.
Militants will tell them to put in the work, and for good reason.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

I have never visited any boards besides this one so I can't add anything on that end.

I will say that I do not find this board to represent the average bell curve marriages. This should likely be obvious because not many of those types find a need in a place like this.

However: I do believe there are a lot of great opinions here for consideration in all marriages. 

The bitter people are very easy to pick out but that doesn't mean they have nothing valuable to offer.

Everyone from the manly muscle flexing axe swinger to the pink militant butch fiminist have something to offer.

All aspects have assisted me in my long standing marriage.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

My thing is this, the requirement is that the WS is truly remorseful and is willing to do the hard work needed to change. But that is only a requirement. Make the choice on what the quality of your life will be. 

I just find that when you read the threads from people trying to do this their quality of life seems terrible. 

How many threads do you read where the people talk about how they will never forgive, they can't accept it, they think about it every day. But in the same breath they choose to spend every day waking up to the person who did this to them. Lots of them say they don't even love their spouse anymore. I mean what is the point? At least in my opinion, having nice things like a house would never be worth wasting my life with someone whom I rightfully have contempt for. I don't see situations like that getting better. 

It's interesting that people in marriages like that are all over the SI/R board but never post on here. I thinks that is because they know we would tell them that they are wasting their lives, but SI will enable them and sympathize with them. 

Plus half the time the cheaters do it again or do other ****ty things that fit their nature. Frankly half the time staying with these people only enables them. I am always struck when I read posts from WS that they almost never assume that their spouse will leave them. Think about it how many times does a WS post and even mention the fear they they will be left? Hardly ever. I think I can think of one post started by a WS where the BS left off the top of my head, but then again how many WS even post to get help or think there is anything wrong with their actions in general. They just always assume that the marriage will stay together, and from the history of these posts it's a pretty good assumption. Probably because these relationships are unhealthy to begin with. Cheaters attract co-dependent type people. It enables their lifestyle. Most of these cheaters should not be married to anyone ever. 

I think the biggest reason R happens is because it was going to no matter what, there is never a chance of divorce anyway. I certainly don't think it's love. The spouse cheats because they know there will be no consequences. The posting on the boards and reading blogs by the BS is all window dressing. In a sense the WS knows the BS better then they know themselves. They know it's not much of a risk, and therefor if they DO post they never mention the possibility of the marriage ending, because it's not one. How many times have you read the sentence by a BS. "They know if they do it again I am done" for them to do it again and the BS is suddenly not done. Which begs the questions why is twice worse the once anyway, or why isn't once enough. I personally think half of these posts by BS are just that BS and if you were to give the person posting truth serum they would tell you their spouse could try to kill them and they would stay. 

I think that people who are predetermined to stay in a marriage no matter what are much more likely to be cheated on. 

I my mind life is way to short. I will never love someone enough to let them treat me that way even once. 

But to each his own I guess.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Rubix Cubed said:


> And there is a counter vocal contingent that blames the victim in just as many cases. Sound familiar?


The person who has been betrayed is NEVER to blame for an affair. And affair is a choice.

That said, it isn't always necessary to flay the WS and grill them on a spit


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Laurentium said:


> I don't know. I read the linked page (but not other pages of the site), and most (but not all) of the points seemed like good advice for those who want to reconcile. I don't think it says you should always R, it says here is what *not *to do *if* you want to R.
> 
> For example, violence; leaning on the kids; believing the WS _immediately _when they say it's over; trusting them because they gave you the phone password (they probably have another phone), trying to woo them back. All big mistakes. No? And trying to police them into fidelity. That's no way to live. I agreed with the piece on that.
> 
> And I guess the one that's got people's backs up here: refusing to consider that the marriage might have had problems. "A poor marriage is not an excuse for an affair" it clearly says, but if you want to R, you have to separate blame for the affair (100% on the WS) from underlying problems (usually present). Nowhere does it say "accept it" or "just get over it". Either I read the wrong page, or I don't understand what you guys saw that you disagree with?



Yep. To expand...

Violence: the WS had it coming. It's okay to beat, smack, abuse, set on fire the WS because they deserve it. Or the great sidestep: "I don't condone it but I understand it"

Kids: If he/she was with someone else, that automatically disqualifies them from ever being a parent - go for full custody

Underlying marriage problems: Everything I did that was crappy as a BS is automatically okay and irrelevant because having an affair is worse. Or the intellectual inability to understand a marriage can be bad and NOT excuse an affair

Believing the WS immediately: I honestly don't know anyone who does this, but if they do, it is a monumentally BAD idea. Even if a WS is telling the truth, they have lost the privilege of being believed until they have re-established a LOOOOOONNNNG pattern of honesty again.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> See both of these posts put up a straw man argument.
> 
> And I think both of those straw men don't hold up to scrutiny.
> 
> ...


I'm extremely sensitive to the word "one right way" because sites where this is espoused become abusive, invasive, and cultlike.

There are some "always" things of course - ALWAYS snoop, NEVER leave your home, NEVER beg, ALWAYS detach for self-protection, etc.

But the specific nuts and bolts can vary. Things like how wide to expose, whether or not to move or change jobs, etc.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> One of the things I have always questioned on this board is if it really would make a difference at all if a WS actually didn't cheat.


Yes it would. Being left would hurt terribly. I fully believe that for the typical person being cheated on is worse. So in practice I absolutely believe it matters. And beyond that, leaving is just the more ETHICAL choice than cheating. I mean, have some morals and self-respect before you cheat!

On a board, however.....I think it's moot. If someone leaves because they have been miserable for years, even if they were 100% faithful, the first thing their spouse will be told on a forum is "she cheated/she's cheating," and that drum will be banged ad nauseum.

Even on the site that has a series of articles about when to call it quits, the forum will bash you over the head insisting "He/she MUST be cheating" until you disappear or spend 10K on evidence to the contrary.

News flash: lots of people leave without cheating. And lots of people who get left are taken by surprise because they didn't want to see it coming.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

sokillme said:


> The spouse cheats because they know there will be no consequences. The posting on the boards and reading blogs by the BS is all window dressing. In a sense the WS knows the BS better then they know themselves. They know it's not much of a risk, and therefor if they DO post they never mention the possibility of the marriage ending, because it's not one.


Hmmmm. I'll say that when I cheated I knew that my wife wouldn't leave for what I did but I also knew there were lines and degrees the would have made her. ****ty I know but I fully understood how far I could push and I did, so on that I absolutely agree. However, that's not at all why I cheated. It was an enabler, a justification, but it's not why. Why is no more or less interesting than the average WS story so I won't recant it here. 

As far as reading and posting I can only speak for myself, but for me it was absolutely NOT window dressing. The reality of it is that my wife is too nice of a person. She didn't have it in her to kick my ass the way I need it kicked to pull my head out of it. I knew I was messed up, that I couldn't get myself out, and that she couldn't either. So I went looking for people who could. They did and it helped dramatically.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> The person who has been betrayed is NEVER to blame for an affair. And affair is a choice.
> 
> That said, it isn't always necessary to flay the WS and grill them on a spit


I never read on post from a WS where they had their head on straight though. I personally don't think calling them an ******* is the way to go though. You might see me ask them questions. The purpose being to get them to stop their self centered thinking for at least a moment. Most of the time that is enough to break the facade. Many times they leave after that point. It's amazing how many of them are really so lost from reality.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> Yep. To expand...
> 
> Violence: the WS had it coming. It's okay to beat, smack, abuse, set on fire the WS because they deserve it. Or the great sidestep: "I don't condone it but I understand it"


The violence one is an interesting one because some affairs are much worse then getting punched in the mouth once. (not saying that is ever alright), but people will immediately judge a spouse who physically abuses their partner as nonredeemable and push hard for the end of the marriage, me being one of them. I should say nonredeemable being in the context of the marriage. 

However sometimes the emotional abuse is just as if not worse and has much longer lasting implications and yet those very same people who were SO hard on the physical abuse will still be quick to say forgive and forget. There have been some long posts on here where the abuse was as bad if not worse then any physical violence I have ever seen on any of these boards but because it didn't leave any physical scars there were people here advocating hard for the marriage staying together. Certainly the tone was different. 

Some of the actions by some WS can only be described as emotional violence.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Lol like I said....


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

CynthiaDe said:


> Comments were open from 2012 to 2014. Many blogs are set to close comments after a certain period of time. My site has that setting.


My sight fails long before that. 
My eyes close, I fall asleep, setting straight up..





[THM]- THRD


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> Yes it would. Being left would hurt terribly. I fully believe that for the typical person being cheated on is worse. So in practice I absolutely believe it matters. And beyond that, leaving is just the more ETHICAL choice than cheating. I mean, have some morals and self-respect before you cheat!
> 
> On a board, however.....I think it's moot. If someone leaves because they have been miserable for years, even if they were 100% faithful, the first thing their spouse will be told on a forum is "she cheated/she's cheating," and that drum will be banged ad nauseum.
> 
> ...


This is because 95% of the time it's true, and the advice is usually more subtle (though I get that you don't do that) then you present it here, it's more like, check and see if they are cheating because 95% of the time they are. Which is good advice by the way. 

That is because the type of person who stays in a bad marriage for years rarely just up and leaves one day, but they do cheat and leave. Usually because the reason they stay is they are co-dependent, so they need another person to latch onto to help them leave.

I do agree that leaving without cheating is better, at least you both get to keep your dignity.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> Lol like I said....


Yep you did, you did on that thread too.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> Yep. To expand...
> 
> Violence: the WS had it coming. It's okay to beat, smack, abuse, set on fire the WS because they deserve it. Or the great sidestep: "I don't condone it but I understand it"
> 
> ...


Wow...

Sorry...

Your anger is showing.

Your slip is evident.

We love you, go easy on yourself.





[THM]- The HeadMates...what's left of them.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

sigma1299 said:


> Hmmmm. I'll say that when I cheated I knew that my wife wouldn't leave for what I did but I also knew there were lines and degrees the would have made her. Sh!tty I know but I fully understood how far I could push and I did, so on that I absolutely agree. However, that's not at all why I cheated. It was an enabler, a justification, but it's not why. Why is no more or less interesting than the average WS story so I won't recant it here.
> 
> Right but was it why you married her?
> 
> As far as reading and posting I can only speak for myself, but for me it was absolutely NOT window dressing. The reality of it is that my wife is too nice of a person. She didn't have it in her to kick my ass the way I need it kicked to pull my head out of it. I knew I was messed up, that I couldn't get myself out, and that she couldn't either. So I went looking for people who could. They did and it helped dramatically.


I think you make my point. That being that you were together partly because of this dynamic.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

sokillme said:


> I think you make my point. That being that you were together partly because of this dynamic.


Fair question and I'm secure in my answer of no but I can't deny I was aware of the dynamic. I had definitely taken a controlling position in our marriage, treating her more like a child or employee than an equal in the couple of years leading up to my EA. One of the really fortunate things to come out of the carnage was that I realized that was the exact opposite of what either of us wanted. I don't want to be married to an employee, we both want to be married to an equal, a partner. I have since worked hard to always treat her that way. 

Anyway... to avoid a thread jack about my transgressions I'll circle around and point out that questions just like the one you asked are helpful, very helpful but people do have to be willing to digest and consider them even if they don't like where it leads.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

sigma1299 said:


> sokillme said:
> 
> 
> > I think you make my point. That being that you were together partly because of this dynamic.
> ...


 Honestly, you don't know a single person on this forum any explanation or self flagellation for your past.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

personofinterest said:


> Honestly, you don't know a single person on this forum any explanation or self flagellation for your past.


LOL! Oh I know that. The only things that really matter are between my wife and me. I guess I do go out of my way to try to convey that while I certainly don't know or understand the pain a BS goes through I do understand the things a WS must do if there is any chance of reconciling assuming they get that opportunity. And I guess that comes back to my original reason for posting in this thread. I understand what a WS must do today... nine years after D Day, but I certainly didn't then and the people here helped me immensely.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> One of the things I have always questioned on this board is if it really would make a difference at all if a WS actually didn't cheat. But instead just told their spouse I am not into you anymore and I want to end this. IMO, I do agree with the sentiment that this is far better than stepping out via an exit affair/s. With that said....I have serious doubts that it would make the spouse that was left behind feel any better. I think they'd be hurt either way. In some cases depending on the person. It might make them feel worse. Like you're leaving me and there isn't even anyone else? We are all different...not every situation is one size fits all. I guess my issue is this place tends to to treat things as if everything is one size fits all.
> 
> Full disclosure I was a serial wayward, and I did a lot of things out of guilt that made things worse. Waywards that get raked over the coals often enter into these "false reconciliations" because they actually do feel bad. IMO exposing them actually only makes it more likely that they will try to work on things....even though they don't want really want to....out of guilt. Just a different perspective...that I am sure no one will care about. Carry on...nothing to see here...LoL.


But there are only some cheaters who cheat because they aren't into their spouse anymore and want to end this.

Some still love their spouse and divorce is the last thing on their mind, in reality. Cake eaters, for example. 

I tried to search for a cake eater GIF and this was all that was coming up:-









And then I thought: "Oh, yeah. Kristen Stewart. Thanks for being there for me, Google!"


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> Honestly, you don't know a single person on this forum any explanation or self flagellation for your past.


So now you are not only policing the replies but the replies to the replies? Why is it SO IMPORTANT that you control the conversation? You seem more interested in the people posting on the threads then the people who started them or the threads themselves.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Those people who are unhappy in a portion of their marriage and decide to deal with it by cheating remind me of the guy who needs more money and decides to deal with it by embezzling just a bit from the company he works for. How in the world do they think that will actually solve the problem, and are they not aware that they are basically jumping from what might be a frying Pan into a giant roaring fire? Character and morals aside, how is doing this even a good idea for the person doing it? It's like treating a cut by pouring sulphuric acid on it.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Rubix Cubed said:


> And there is a counter vocal contingent that blames the victim in just as many cases. Sound familiar?


Is there? I've not heard much from that group here, and when someone makes that claim, they get pretty thoroughly roughed up.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> Further, @Cletus, since when had anything that the BETRAYED Spouse did or did not do, MAKE the WS cheat. If it was that bad, then get a divorce. Or heaven forbid, talk about it.


Sigh. This has been so hashed on this forum I feel like a broken record. 

No one makes a spouse cheat, and you will notice that I very carefully avoided that language. Plenty of spouses set up conditions that make a spouse want to cheat.

For those who don't want to save the marriage, the distinction is moot. For those who do, it is supremely important.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> But there are only some cheaters who cheat because they aren't into their spouse anymore and want to end this.
> 
> Some still love their spouse and divorce is the last thing on their mind, in reality. Cake eaters, for example.


You make a solid point. Might make for good thread. I guess I don't really think cake eaters actually love their spouse. I think they just don't want to upset the apple cart. Maybe they are worried about finances, or what others might think. Maybe they just fear being completely alone and want someone there always. I don't know...I guess I just have doubts that they love their spouse at all. I am not saying that many aren't content with their lives with their spouse...I think the word love is throwing me off. If they truly loved them I guess I don't think they would be doing it at all.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

I love tacos .... But I never cheated on my wife to have them.


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## Sauvie Island (Jul 4, 2018)

I don't know...I've had some good barbacoa...usually little hole in the wall joints.


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## Sauvie Island (Jul 4, 2018)

ReformedHubby said:


> You make a solid point. Might make for good thread. I guess I don't really think cake eaters actually love their spouse. I think they just don't want to upset the apple cart. Maybe they are worried about finances, or what others might think. Maybe they just fear being completely alone and want someone there always. I don't know...I guess I just have doubts that they love their spouse at all. I am not saying that many aren't content with their lives with their spouse...I think the word love is throwing me off. If they truly loved them I guess I don't think they would be doing it at all.


You could argue both ways...but yes, context, context. 

By in large, there is love there I fell, just as a tweaker still loves those he steals from...but then you go down the rabbit hole of brain physiology.

I know for a fact my ex loved me even when I became dead set on divorce, but trusting a serial to make the right decisions while rebuilding your tattered life is too much.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Love can't have abuse in it. Love is also not a desire to be with someone, which is what most of the world calls love. 

Love involves putting that person above yourself. There is no way cheaters can love the person who they cheat on.

Now serial cheaters are like a subspecies of human, one less evolved. They really don't have what it takes to play at the grownup table with things like love. Hopefully one day we will have brain scans that will identify them and if we can't fix them make them wear signs or something. "Danger stay away!" Like the pox.

I see it like this there are cheaters and non-cheaters. 

Non-cheaters are never going to cheat no matter what. They are rare. 

As for the cheaters just because you have the potential to be a cheater doesn't mean you will. 

Some recognize it and make sure to stay away from temptation. 

Some just never really are put into a true situation of temptation because of pure luck. 

Many others think they will never cheat only to fail when faced with temptation. Sometimes that temptation creeps up on them slowly. Those are the ones who I think really do want to repent. They never wanted to be a cheater and are surprised that they got there. 

And then there are the *******s. They just suck. Many of them are emotionally stunted or emotionally disordered in some way. 

It's best to operate like you are a potential cheater and avoid temptation.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

You love your spouse. But you lust after the new colleague, the new neighbour, the postman/woman.

But only some people take it to having an affair.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

MattMatt said:


> You love your spouse. But you lust after the new colleague, the new neighbour, the postman/woman.
> 
> But only some people take it to having an affair.


 Somewhere I read some cheater say I love my spouse, but I love myself more. Which is kind of nauseatingly. Honestly, I think that statement should be I love my spouse, but I hate myself more. Because you really can't think very much of yourself if you are willing to throw away all of your values and integrity for something that is usually so fleeting and and fulfilling and hurtful to the people you claim to love.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Cletus said:


> No one makes a spouse cheat, and you will notice that I very carefully avoided that language. *Plenty of spouses set up conditions that make a spouse want to cheat*.


This is completely ridiculous. That is just silly. 

Believe it if you want, LOL...


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> Cletus said:
> 
> 
> > No one makes a spouse cheat, and you will notice that I very carefully avoided that language. *Plenty of spouses set up conditions that make a spouse want to cheat*.
> ...


Cheating is a choice that is never justified.

However, if you can't see how a sexless marriage, fir example, might make a man vulnerable, you are CHOOSING not to get it.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

sokillme said:


> Love can't have abuse in it. Oh yes it can. Examples of this are replete from domestic abuse to alcoholism and so on.
> Love involves putting that person above yourself. There is no way cheaters can love the person who they cheat on.
> 
> Now serial cheaters are like a subspecies of human, one less evolved. They really don't have what it takes to play at the grownup table with things like love. Hopefully one day we will have brain scans that will identify them and if we can't fix them make them wear signs or something. "Danger stay away!" Like the pox. LOL
> ...


Setting serials aside. I think everyone has some of every person you describe above in them. Life, and the people who live it, are ever evolving and ever changing. No one is the same today as they were yesterday. To write yourself carte blanche that "I am not a cheater and would never cheat" I think sets a person up for it at least to some degree. This is exactly how I used to categorize myself and then exactly the wrong person reentered my life in exactly the wrong set of circumstances that I was unprepared for and BOOM. Now I have a scarlet A. If you're not aware of the possibility of human failure, or believe yourself immune to it, you are less likely to see it sneaking up on you before it bites you in the ass. Everyone has strong and weak periods in their lives. That's in no way to imply that cheating is an acceptable or justifiable failure, it's just to say that everyone's feet are made of clay.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

But add mental illhealth, perhaps some CSA or a violently abusive spouse and cheating might happen.

Yes, in an ideal world cheating would not happen, but we don't live in an ideal world.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> Cheating is a choice that is never justified.
> 
> However, if you can't see how a sexless marriage, fir example, might make a man vulnerable, you are CHOOSING not to get it.


Listen, I get it... But here is the deal. 

If you are in a bad marriage then divorce. One thing that we can all be clear on at least... Cheating is wrong. 

There is a whole list of things the could happen in a marriage, but if you cheat, you lose the moral high ground. If you care about your morals, if you care about doing the right thing, then cheating is wrong. 

And no one MAKES your do it or SETS up the situation to make you vulnerable. 

Hell, I could almost give someone in a sexless marriage a pass for cheating, almost.

And least you think I am or I am proclaiming myself some type of angle. Think again.

Like I think you, @personofinterest, unless I am forgetting some things, I have done a lot of things in my life that I am not really proud of. I am no angel. 

But for me, there is right and wrong, in almost every situation. And no I am not saying that I cannot see shades of grey in some area's. 

But, now, in my life, I really try to take the RIGHT path, every single time. I just don't want to hurt anyone ever again. For any reason. 

And it is not like I have not been hurt myself in my life. But I am not going to knowingly do the wrong thing again if I can help it. 

But the bottom line is cheating is wrong. If you are in a bad marriage, and a sexless marriage is bad in my book, then you get out before you cheat.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I think our biology is a bit behind our technological advancement. I told my H the other night that men, including him, remain a true mystery to me, so much so that it's a miracle that we can still manage to live together after all these years. I think we are likely biologically programmed to mate and do what needs to be done to bring children to adulthood. It's not clear to me that we're really up to domestic life until we die at age 95. (I'm reminded of the true story of the 95+ year-old man who divorced his wife of 70+ years; when the judge asked him why, after all these years, he was doing this, he replied, 'Enough is enough.')

So, I think it's very possible to think we are marrying someone with similar values, but to be blindsided with the discovery that, in fact, we haven't done that at all. The world is filled with people who think that cheating is not only no big deal, but actually the accepted norm. It is, in my opinion, also filled with people who think that cheating is simply not OK, especially since it invariably involves lying, and lots of people, myself included, really don't respect liars.

Then what happens when you find yourself married to someone who, much to your shock, is in the other camp? If you're a cheater, you have probably hidden this from your spouse, but are now surprised, when it all comes out, to see a reaction that you consider extreme. The BS is over the top, histrionic, 'bitter.' If you're the betrayed, you can't believe the physical/emotional pain that your partner's deceit has caused you. You can't believe that the two of you are actually so fundamentally different.

I think bitterness is a very natural human emotion. It serves a purpose, in my opinion. If I have experienced something that generates bitterness, it is usually something extreme, violating, and gratuitous. The bitterness serves as a warning away from the behavior that caused my pain, so I don't (hopefully) repeat the experience. After a while, the bitterness devolves into what I could only describe as a softer wisdom - a knowledge of self that guides me from the trap that originally caused the bitterness.

For me, most of the posters here are somewhere on that spectrum from bitterness to wisdom and it is very helpful to anyone just starting out on the journey of dealing with trauma to experience the various points on the spectrum. For infidelity, they can see that, yes, it can be immensely painful, but you heal from it gradually; yes, you may become very bitter, but that, too, morphs into a less barbed state; yes, you may feel gun shy about future relationships, but that's OK, since it's probably a good thing to be more careful. Etc.

My .02


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

BluesPower said:


> This is completely ridiculous. That is just silly.
> 
> Believe it if you want, LOL...


I actually agree with @Cletus....making someone miserable, does indeed impact their behavior. If you emotionally starve your spouse, they will crave that, if you deprive them of physical affection, they will be missing that, if you verbally or physically abuse them, you could be pushing them into the arms of someone kinder. Is cheating wrong. Of course it is. But lets not pretend that the behavior of the BS has zero impact. I do get the argument on here, that cheating is never the right choice. But that's not reality, and honestly I don't think it ever will be. The things people do in their marriage could impact the likelihood of their spouse cheating, it shouldn't, but it does. I guess I feel like the debate is pointless. I think we all agree that its never right. But I guess I don't ever see a world where the majority of the people will actually live by it when put to the test. Some will do the right thing...but I think its wishful thinking to feel that most will.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> Listen, I get it... But here is the deal.
> 
> If you are in a bad marriage then divorce. One thing that we can all be clear on at least... Cheating is wrong.
> 
> ...



This is a great post. But totally unnecessary. This is what I mean. NOWHERE in any of my posts do I justify cheating. Is it THAT hard to distinguish acknowledging contributing factors to vulnerability from justifying cheating?

You HAVE to be smarter than that.

Acknowledging that a bad marriage might make one vulnerable IS NOT the same thing as justifying cheating.

If you are vulnerable, that is a cue to shore up your boundaries.

I;'m quite frankly sick of explaining what is logically obvious to people just because THEY cannot distinguish two very separate discussions.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

I read the article. I agree with most of it. I do not agree with no exposure if you want to reconcile. Exposure is what killed my wife’s affair and enabled us to reconcile.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> This is completely ridiculous. That is just silly.
> 
> 
> 
> Believe it if you want, LOL...


We don't all live in Lake Wobegon.

Been called lots of things in my life, but silly and ridiculous rarely make the list. Is this the usual way you manage disagreement? One could imagine a spouse finding this, shall we say, off-putting.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> The things people do in their marriage could impact the likelihood of their spouse cheating, it shouldn't, but it does.


Why shouldn't it? The actions of your spouse are some of the most impactful things in your life. Compound that with the requirement of monogamy - the ONLY thing you are not allowed access to outside the marriage - and any expectation that your spouse not be able to influence your likelihood of cheating is hopelessly naive.

I'll add the unnecessary stipulation for the straw man crowd that it doesn't count as providing a justifiable pass. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Cletus said:


> We don't all live in Lake Wobegon.
> 
> Been called lots of things in my life, but silly and ridiculous rarely make the list. Is this the usual way you manage disagreement? One could imagine a spouse finding this, shall we say, off-putting.


Well I actually did not call you anything. However, at one level I really don't care if you take it that way. 

And you know what, if any woman I was with said something like your post, I would say exactly the same thing...

We disagree, with is OK with me...


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> Well I actually did not call you anything. However, at one level I really don't care if you take it that way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok, I'll watch the tapdance where you come up with a way of saying my opinion is silly and ridiculous but I am not. 

But I get it. We're not ****ing, so you can treat me differently.

Which sorta makes my point, in a very long walk.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> I read the article. I agree with most of it. I do not agree with no exposure if you want to reconcile. Exposure is what killed my wife’s affair and enabled us to reconcile.


What do you think would had happened if you hadn't exposed?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> Because you really can't think very much of yourself if you are willing to throw away all of your values and integrity for something that is usually so fleeting and and fulfilling and hurtful to the people you claim to love.


I lot of them don't have those values they just pretend that they do because they know if they admitted it people would run away from them. Don't give them all so much credit.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

sokillme said:


> What do you think would had happened if you hadn't exposed?


I truthfully do not know. Exposure brought shame to FWW and POSOM. I had the support of her family as well as mine and our close friends were solidly in my corner. My one regret is I should not have exposed on Facebook. However, exposure kills affairs. >Oh well.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> sokillme said:
> 
> 
> > What do you think would had happened if you hadn't exposed?
> ...


 It is my belief that thoughtful, targeted, intimate exposure is affective in killing an affair and helping to facilitate true reconciliation. What I mean by targeted, thoughtful, and intimate is that exposure done for a good purpose is limited to those people who can support the marriage directly, help the betrayed spouse achieve his goal, and help keep the wayward spouse accountable. I also believe that a truly repentant wayward spouse will welcome the support and accountability.



S for the nuclear option where people blast an entire Facebook wall, take out a Billboard, tell everyone who has ever met the wayward spouse in their entire lives… that kind of stuff is just junior high vengeance, and while it is certainly understandable, it just makes the betrayed spouse look like a p****.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

personofinterest said:


> It is my belief that thoughtful, targeted, intimate exposure is affective in killing an affair and helping to facilitate true reconciliation. What I mean by targeted, thoughtful, and intimate is that exposure done for a good purpose is limited to those people who can support the marriage directly, help the betrayed spouse achieve his goal, and help keep the wayward spouse accountable. I also believe that a truly repentant wayward spouse will welcome the support and accountability.


I absolutely agree with this. A truly remorseful WS will recognize that their BS needs the help and support of at least a few close family and friends to deal with the betrayal and will do everything they can to help them obtain that support.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> I truthfully do not know. Exposure brought shame to FWW and POSOM. I had the support of her family as well as mine and our close friends were solidly in my corner. My one regret is I should not have exposed on Facebook. However, exposure kills affairs. >Oh well.


You make it sound like she quit only because she was forced to by her own shame though. I don't know that would bother me but then again I will admit and I am sure you know the whole thing would bother me. 

Why would you want to be with someone who needs to be shamed into it. Like either they want you or they don't. I'm sorry I will never get this. 

I know what you are going to say though, you were a different person with PTSD and that is why she did what she did.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I think one of the things necessary to truly reconcile and understand reconciliation is the understanding that the recovery process and the psycholigy behind it is not simplistic and linear. Someone may initially stop badd behavior because of shame or fear or embarrassment. But the typical person is able to evolve, and once the fog has dissipated, they can experience ginuine healthy shame and remorse over their actions. For example, many children initially stop disobeying a parent because they want to avoid being disciplined. However, the habit of accountability helps to develop their character. People who do not understand the nuances of the human psyche and want to make everything linear and simplistic probably are not cut out for recovery


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

@personofinterest.....you are spot on


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

sokillme said:


> You make it sound like she quit only because she was forced to by her own shame though. I don't know that would bother me but then again I will admit and I am sure you know the whole thing would bother me.
> 
> Why would you want to be with someone who needs to be shamed into it. Like either they want you or they don't. I'm sorry I will never get this.
> 
> I know what you are going to say though, you were a different person with PTSD and that is why she did what she did.


So kill me, you have dogged me ever since you got on this board. Did you remind me of Thomas when he asked to stick his fingers in Jesus side then he would believe. You question my wife’s intentions two years ago when she arrange for my song writer pals to give me a shout out and a belated welcome home. You appear see only the negative and have a dour outlook on life. Hey, I am ****ing happy. Get over yourself. If I posted all of the things my wife has done for me since R started we would be on this board until the cows came home. She got it, showed remorse, felt my pain, and did the heavy lifting it took. She knows she ****ed up and when she realized what I had been dealing with she felt lower than a snakes belly. My wife by her actions has redeemed herself to me. I am happy she is happy.....now you need to cease being a naddering neybob of negativism. Get happy, lighten up and see the good in people instead of the negative.

Peace


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> So kill me, you have dogged me ever since you got on this board. Did you remind me of Thomas when he asked to stick his fingers in Jesus side then he would believe. You question my wife’s intentions two years ago when she arrange for my song writer pals to give me a shout out and a belated welcome home. You appear see only the negative and have a dour outlook on life. Hey, I am ****ing happy. Get over yourself. If I posted all of the things my wife has done for me since R started we would be on this board until the cows came home. She got it, showed remorse, felt my pain, and did the heavy lifting it took. She knows she ****ed up and when she realized what I had been dealing with she felt lower than a snakes belly. My wife by her actions has redeemed herself to me. I am happy she is happy.....now you need to cease being a naddering neybob of negativism. Get happy, lighten up and see the good in people instead of the negative.
> 
> Peace


I am not trying to dog you I just don't get it. I just don't understand how you can feel the way you do so I ask questions. It seem so foreign to me. I really do believe you, I just don't understand you. I even get the forgiving part. 

I get it though, I will **** off now though. You are right not to give a crap about what I think, it's your life.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

I just went to the link in the OP.. this was in their list of mistakes:

*Exposing the affair to your friends, family, neighbors, coworkers. 

Threatening to expose your mate’s affair to everyone will only increase their guilt and shame, and may enrage them. More people may know already than you might realize. Some of them perhaps have even offered your unfaithful spouse support or encouragement in the affair or behavior. It will not keep your mate home. I see this suggested constantly on some Betrayed Spouse message boards and blogs — expose the affair to every one. Frankly, this is more about retribution and shaming your Wayward Spouse, and is likely to backfire. If my wife had exposed me to everyone, I am quite sure I would’ve walked out the door instead of reconciling our marriage.*

It also stated that the betrayed spouse needs to take on some of the responsibility for their cheater's cheating. I GET acknowledging your part in a screwed up marriage, but the BS should never be blamed for the actual cheating done by their partners! 

Ugh.


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## Spoons027 (Jun 19, 2017)

3Xnocharm said:


> I just went to the link in the OP.. this was in their list of mistakes:
> 
> *Exposing the affair to your friends, family, neighbors, coworkers.
> 
> ...


Well ain’t he a peach? /s

Had no problem deceiving his spouse for 2 years but would walk out if all his dirty deeds were out in the open? 

Yikes


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