# Ok, wife and I are having a talk tonight



## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

Many of you know my situation or been in the same boat. 

Doing the MAP for about 9-10 months now. Seen great results back in spring/summer. Sex and affection was great only after 2 months of implementing. Slowed down big time in oct. she started telling me about UTI's getting worse at that time after sex. Although, never complained during spring/summer. 

Got her appt at OBGYN a few weeks ago. Dr. now wants her to see urologist. Appt is dec. 24th. She now tells me we have to cool it down for a while. I tell her I understand but there are other things we could do. By me saying that she gets all pissed. Last week I try and initiate a Bj or hand job and that did not turn out good at all. So really, 10 minutes to please me is like pulling a tooth with no novacane to her. Tried talking to her about it and she was getting even more pissed. 

Well, decided to just do the 180 after that. Did it for 3 days and it was killing her. Finally she said this morning why am I acting this way. Told her we will talk tonight and she says ok. She knows what's wrong, there is absolutely no affection and her actions the other day are just not what I want in a marriage or wife. 

Of course there has been suspicions of infidelity in the past but has not been brought up at all by me (except one time in April when i suspected strange behavior between her and neighbor). I am using a VAR/pen recorder but nothing is coming up. Although there were a few strange comments I caught on VAR but nothing I can prove and confront with. 

So yeah, I can tell that my wife may just not be attracted to me and could care less to give me pleasure in any way. Don't get why, I am in great shape. Excellent hygiene. Dress nice. 
I'm sure the UTI's turn her off to having sex. But to refuse to do other things is just confusing. 

I need advice on how to get my point over to her tonight. I sense no matter what I say it's falling on deaf ears. 

This is a woman who is the worst at communicating, does not discuss anything that bothers her. Does not open up about her pleasures or things that could excite her. 

But this morning she comes out with, when I get up and lock our bedroom door it skeeves her out. Me locking the door is my way of initiating I want to have sex. She actualy said "that is the worst thing I do. That's what pedofiles and rapist do" SERIOUSLY!! Is that how she views me because I want sex from my wife!! I have never raped someone and never touched a child. 

I just see no fixing this. I a not going to have a sexless marriage and she knows this. I am not jumping through hoops to have duty sex. 

Any advice?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

castration?


(for her)


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

What was your frequency of having sex while she was being responsive to it?


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## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Stop locking the door...just initiate. She won't have a reason to get pissed, or at least can't use that one any longer.


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> What was your frequency of having sex while she was being responsive to it?


Spring/summer was an average of 3 times a week. She was into toys, roleplay, BJ's were a constant thing. I always gave back also.


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

Also, i get how woman think. If she is not into me i can "talk " until i'm blue in the face. But to get great results from Mapping then complete reverse makes no sense.
I've read MMSG 2X...and NMMNG.


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

IndyTM said:


> Stop locking the door...just initiate. She won't have a reason to get pissed, or at least can't use that one any longer.


I plan on not locking door in future but seems like i am back to square 1. I'm actually turned off by her actions and to tell you the truth i have lost my attraction to her. May be her plan all along...


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

has MC ever come up?


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## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

jerry123 said:


> Also, i get how woman think. If she is not into me i can "talk " until i'm blue in the face. But to get great results from Mapping then complete reverse makes no sense.
> I've read MMSG 2X...and NMMNG.


She doesn't take you seriously then...stand your ground or forever be trampled on.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

IndyTM said:


> She doesn't take you seriously then...stand your ground or forever be trampled on.


he has been

this woman has been inconsiderate of his feelings for some time now

jerry- you deserve to be happy, clearly you are not right now. I think you lay it out on the table and express your displeasure and if things don't change then the marriage may end.


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> he has been
> 
> this woman has been inconsiderate of his feelings for some time now
> 
> jerry- you deserve to be happy, clearly you are not right now. I think you lay it out on the table and express your displeasure and if things don't change then the marriage may end.


I agree, she thinks i won't do anything. She is just sitting back not even caring if i am happy. She knows i'm not, still any lack of action by me results in things staying the same.

I would hate it to get to the point of consulting a lawyer but it's something i have been considering. But i would have to get prepared to do it and not look back.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Well as almost everyone says here you cannot nice her out of this. Good luck tonight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> has MC ever come up?


Actually, i've stopped going to IC back in Aug. since i thought i was at a good point. She went once to MC and cried the whole time. MC told me she thinks she does have emotions but just keeps them to herself. Does not open up.

TBH, i think the crying was a smoke screen. But MC thinks it was genuine. LOL, she has never cried in front of me in the last 12-13 years.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

If you don't lock the door she'll complain that the kids might walk in. Ever heard of the never-ending story? You get the never-ending excuse.


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> If you don't lock the door she'll complain that the kids might walk in. Ever heard of the never-ending story? You get the never-ending excuse.


Yeah, it has nothing to do with locking the door. Back when we were having sex all the time I would lock the door! 

I am not blind, I see she is making excuses. 

Maybe it's my attitude...I'm ramping up the Alpha. If you know my wife, she is a high Alpha woman. SH$T test are like 3-4 x a week. And I've been knocking them down very well. Being the person she is, control and power is what she gets off on. I change the dynamics of power and she does not like that. 

Could she be that bat SH&T crazy woman Athol talks about in his book?? If so i am doomed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

I'm becoming convinced mine is...


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## LdyVenus (Dec 1, 2012)

UTI's are painful. I'm not seeing a lot of sympathy? Do you keep her "primed" with talking, touching, loving gestures, or do you just walk in and lock the door expecting to get humped?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

LdyVenus said:


> UTI's are painful. I'm not seeing a lot of sympathy? Do you keep her "primed" with talking, touching, loving gestures, or do you just walk in and lock the door expecting to get humped?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Read his back story. The UTI's are nothing new. He's bent over backward for her. And he's willing to accept a quick BJ or HJ instead of insisting she just deal with it. She's just making excuses.

To the OP, I suggest you say as little as possible. One of the rules of negotiation is that the first one to speak is weakened. I would just lay out that you're not happy. That you expect a reasonable frequency of sex and a reasonable commitment from her to tend to your needs and she's failing to meet her obligations in the marriage. Then shut up and let her start flinging excuses. And respond to each with a smirk.

If she offers nothing of substance, then just let her rage for a few minutes, and calmly get up and walk out. Call your lawyer and arrange for separation the next day.

Good luck.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

jerry123 said:


> Yeah, it has nothing to do with locking the door. Back when we were having sex all the time I would lock the door!
> 
> I am not blind, I see she is making excuses.
> 
> ...


Maybe Jerry tonight is the line in the sand you have been putting up with this for quite awhile.


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> Read his back story. The UTI's are nothing new. He's bent over backward for her. And he's willing to accept a quick BJ or HJ instead of insisting she just deal with it. She's just making excuses.
> 
> To the OP, I suggest you say as little as possible. One of the rules of negotiation is that the first one to speak is weakened. I would just lay out that you're not happy. That you expect a reasonable frequency of sex and a reasonable commitment from her to tend to your needs and she's failing to meet her obligations in the marriage. Then shut up and let her start flinging excuses. And respond to each with a smirk.
> 
> ...



I have bent over backwards. Making apt for her, telling her I am concerned about her condition. And saying we need to find out what's going on with these UTI's. 

Thing is, she has absolutely no desire to tend to my needs. She actually said "well when I was pregnant you went 7-8 months with no sex and did fine". Ummm no i did not do fine, (Damn, it just hit me. She had no desire then to please me) and yeah, that was pre MMSG book and looking back I see how stupid I was.

I will be letting her do the talking. I will just sit back and listen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Jerry,
One minor point to state.....

She's ill, and cannot have sex. Thus, she's not able to get her "satisfaction". Did that thought cross your mind???

Yes, she could do "something" to make sure your needs are met.
But dude, she's gotta go cold turkey \ nothing in return because of the UTI's? 

Yes, I understand the point of making sure your needs are met.
But PLEASE consider an important aspect of MAP and the 180.

It should never ever be a punishment for your spouse not doing what you want. That's passive aggressive. And an abuse of power.

I tend to think that running the MAP would end result with you being so busy manning up that she would naturally want you, sick or not. Maybe she's not batsh!t crazy, but doesn't desire you enough. So keep working on it. 

A Woman that desires you, finds you attractive, will want to please you. You wouldn't be asking. She would be feeling BAD because she's out of service.


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## lilith23 (Sep 6, 2012)

jerry123 said:


> She now tells me we have to cool it down for a while. I tell her I understand but there are other things we could do. By me saying that she gets all pissed.


I would say that this is the problem. For some women, it's a huge turn off for her man to want her to please him sexually even if she doesn't feel like it. In her point of view, it seems that you mainly want sex from her and even if her current condition is not good and she would not really feel pleasure, or even some discomfort or pain.

Also, do you show much affection even if not for initiating sex? Some men might show less affection when there's no sex as they might often show affection mostly when initiating sex. In that case, some women might feel that their men are only affectionate for the sake of getting some sex, and not exactly genuine affection.

Your wife might be expecting you to stop demanding sex while she's in that state and not feeling like doing it. If you show more affection without the intention of having sex, your wife might eventually feel more and more understood and supported. Sometimes, it's not that women are not considerating of men's needs, but it's a huge turn off if their men wants service sex while knowing that the woman would not feel pleasure or even feel discomfort or pain in some way (with UTI or other worse cases). It's an emotional turn off, as women might feel lack of understanding from men and lack of real genuine care from men.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

lilith23 said:


> I would say that this is the problem. For some women, it's a huge turn off for her man to want her to please him sexually even if she doesn't feel like it. In her point of view, it seems that you mainly want sex from her and even if her current condition is not good and she would not really feel pleasure, or even some discomfort or pain.
> 
> Also, do you show much affection even if not for initiating sex? Some men might show less affection when there's no sex as they might often show affection mostly when initiating sex. In that case, some women might feel that their men are only affectionate for the sake of getting some sex, and not exactly genuine affection.
> 
> Your wife might be expecting you to stop demanding sex while she's in that state and not feeling like doing it. If you show more affection without the intention of having sex, your wife might eventually feel more and more understood and supported. Sometimes, it's not that women are not considerating of men's needs, but it's a huge turn off if their men wants service sex while knowing that the woman would not feel pleasure or even feel discomfort or pain in some way (with UTI or other worse cases). It's an emotional turn off, as women might feel lack of understanding from men and lack of real genuine care from men.


You make it sound like it's a temporary inconvenience. If that were the case, I think most would agree with you. Now, assume for a moment that it's permanent. She cannot have vaginal sex anymore at all. If that were the case, should he not expect any kind of sexual contact at all, since she cannot get off too? How long should he be denied before he has been patient enough?


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> You make it sound like it's a temporary inconvenience. If that were the case, I think most would agree with you. Now, assume for a moment that it's permanent. She cannot have vaginal sex anymore at all. If that were the case, should he not expect any kind of sexual contact at all, since she cannot get off too? How long should he be denied before he has been patient enough?


Agreed with you, WorkingonMe.

Gotta a couple of questions though for the OP.

She's had several UTI's? Is she kinda mad at you about this?
Hot tub or shower sex, not washing enough, unclean toys, is she diabetic? Gotta ask. Cuz these are not really "that" common, and finding out what is causing them can help your cause.

And yeah, if she cannot have vaginal sex, what is he going to do to meet her needs? Ooops, sorry, you are just asking about his needs. I meant, what are THEY going to do to ensure they are both getting their needs met?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

deejov said:


> what are THEY going to do to ensure they are both getting their needs met?


Both....yes that was part 2 of my question. I was saving that for a later post


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Both....yes that was part 2 of my question. I was saving that for a later post


I know. I just read your mind and typed it faster than you. I"m on a roll today. I should do my taxes before year end ha ha ha


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

lol


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

jerry123 said:


> Got her appt at OBGYN a few weeks ago. Dr. now wants her to see urologist. Appt is dec. 24th. She now tells me we have to cool it down for a while. I tell her I understand but there are other things we could do. By me saying that she gets all pissed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok, I'm sorry, but I find this EXTREMELY insensitive! I would be MAJOR pissed if I had a medical issue and the first words my husband says upon finding out no sex for a while is that there are other things we could do! Maybe had you offered some moral support, she would have been open to those other things on her own. My ex and I had to stop sex for a time when I had an abnormal pap that led to biopsies and laser surgery. Never once did he say anything remotely close to this to me, instead he was reassuring me that the break in sex was ok, he just wanted me to be ok. THAT sensitivity got him plenty of BJ's while I was out of commission!


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

Valid points... Thing is, I would bend over backwards to full fill her needs. Just ask me to do it and I would....she does not open up about her needs. She is stone cold. 

Funny thing when I read MMSG, it says that if men think women are not horny or like sex they are sadly mistaken. They like it as much as men!! She is 37, other than UTI's she is healthy. 

Listen, I am sensitive to her needs, I am in shape, I am a loyal husband and father. If she can't see that and wants to lose me then I am fine with that. There are millions of women who would kill to have a guy like me. 

BTW, I have absolutely no idea why she gets UTI's. I shower everyday. My nails are dirt free, my hands are washed at least 5-7 x a day. I just don't get it. I can fix her not being attracted to me by manning up and getting in shape (which I am) but she now has to worry about getting a UTI after sex. I can't fix that...the only fix is not having sex. I can't be in that type of marriage. Seriously, now I'm the bad guy for wanting to have sex with my wife and I'm the bad guy if I divorce her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Hopefully it is nothing too serious. Some women need to just pop a (macrolide??) antibiotic after sex for this issue. Urinating after sex I have heard helps as well.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

There are lots of things she could be doing naturally without a doctor to stop the UTI's.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

All this talk about UTI's from her end and you mentioning putting a VAR on her is greatly unsettling... Are you sure you've ruled out infidelity? Even if it wasn't even recent... If she was unfaithful even once, the guilt the shame or even the very real STD... Be safe Jerry... Careful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Many of the bacteria that cause UTI's are STDs. But not all of them. Could be e coli. Then again, if you think she's cheated then it could also be the big C. Or the big G. Yikes.


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## Michael A. Brown (Oct 16, 2012)

It is quite hard for you but you should still understand the situation of your wife.


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Many of the bacteria that cause UTI's are STDs. But not all of them. Could be e coli. Then again, if you think she's cheated then it could also be the big C. Or the big G. Yikes.


He could be playing with fire and not know it, being fortunately spared each time she denies him... If this is even a possibility, it must be explored... Jerry's personal health should come before the health of his sex life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LdyVenus (Dec 1, 2012)

lilith23 said:


> .
> 
> it's a huge turn off if their men wants service sex while knowing that the woman would not feel pleasure or even feel discomfort or pain in some way (with UTI or other worse cases). It's an emotional turn off, as women might feel lack of understanding from men and lack of real genuine care from men.


:iagree:


Sorry your Vag hurts babe, maybe you could suck me off instead...


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

diwali123 said:


> There are lots of things she could be doing naturally without a doctor to stop the UTI's.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My wife sometimes drank cranberry juice when having UTI problems. It seemed to help somewhat.....


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

lilith23 said:


> For some women, it's a huge turn off for her man to want her to please him sexually even if she doesn't feel like it. In her point of view, it seems that you mainly want sex from her and even if her current condition is not good and she would not really feel pleasure, or even some discomfort or pain.


A UTI would be uncomfortable for sex. That's why Jerry would settle for an alternative.

Seriously, read the back story. This isn't a case of an insensitive man wanting daily sex while his poor, downtrodden wife struggles to keep up with his unreasonable demands in spite of her body betraying her.

His wife has had consistent UTIs over the course of their marriage. She had some flare ups a couple of months ago. Jerry was the one who had to schedule the doctor's appointment. When the OBGYN found nothing and suggested a urologist, his wife decided to wait 2-3 months to see the urologist. I know. Jerry's unreasonable to think that the delay is just a touch excessive, right?



lilith23 said:


> Also, do you show much affection even if not for initiating sex? Some men might show less affection when there's no sex as they might often show affection mostly when initiating sex. In that case, some women might feel that their men are only affectionate for the sake of getting some sex, and not exactly genuine affection.


Read the back story. Jerry's wife is the one withholding affection. She is the primary breadwinner and on a continual power trip in the marriage. She loses attraction for Jerry the SAHD, gains some attraction back when he mans up, and then freaks out when she realizes that she's not in total control of the relationship any more.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Is it possible that she has found out that she has an std? And that the doctor told her not to have sex with you ?


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Shaggy said:


> Is it possible that she has found out that she has an std? And that the doctor told her not to have sex with you ?


The UTIs have been an issue for years. I very much doubt it's an STD.


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## lilith23 (Sep 6, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> You make it sound like it's a temporary inconvenience. If that were the case, I think most would agree with you. Now, assume for a moment that it's permanent. She cannot have vaginal sex anymore at all. If that were the case, should he not expect any kind of sexual contact at all, since she cannot get off too? How long should he be denied before he has been patient enough?


I will use 3Xnocharm's comment, as it sums up pretty well.



3Xnocharm said:


> Ok, I'm sorry, but I find this EXTREMELY insensitive! I would be MAJOR pissed if I had a medical issue and the first words my husband says upon finding out no sex for a while is that there are other things we could do! Maybe had you offered some moral support, she would have been open to those other things on her own. My ex and I had to stop sex for a time when I had an abnormal pap that led to biopsies and laser surgery. Never once did he say anything remotely close to this to me, instead he was reassuring me that the break in sex was ok, he just wanted me to be ok. THAT sensitivity got him plenty of BJ's while I was out of commission!


WorkingOnMe, if you have read OP's first post, things were going well back in Spring/Summer, but it went downhill coz the UTI got much worse. Then the wife told the OP to cool things down for a while, but instead of showing some understanding, the OP wanted the wife to continue with the "wife duties", even thought she would not have enjoyment as he would. Couldn't he wait together with her for a while? To a woman, this situation translates as "it's a shame you can't enjoy it together now, but I still need my enjoyment".
If the OP simply accepted to cool things off for a while, while showing non sexual affection or any initiation, it's not a guarantee that he would get alternate stuffs, but many women would in fact do it out of affection. But if they feel insensitivity, lack of understanding and even selfishness, they can turn cold and cease to show affection.


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## lilith23 (Sep 6, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> A UTI would be uncomfortable for sex. That's why Jerry would settle for an alternative.
> 
> Seriously, read the back story. This isn't a case of an insensitive man wanting daily sex while his poor, downtrodden wife struggles to keep up with his unreasonable demands in spite of her body betraying her.
> 
> His wife has had consistent UTIs over the course of their marriage. She had some flare ups a couple of months ago. Jerry was the one who had to schedule the doctor's appointment. When the OBGYN found nothing and suggested a urologist, his wife decided to wait 2-3 months to see the urologist. I know. Jerry's unreasonable to think that the delay is just a touch excessive, right?


So it is fine for the man to continue enjoying with BJs and alternatives, while the woman has to wait by herself 'till she finds solution for her UTI? So it is fine for the woman not finding it enjoyable, as long as the man does?

By asking for alternatives right away when his wife asks for some cool down shows concern about himself rather than her. If he had decided to be with her on the same ship and wait, which translates to support and dealing with the issue together instead of worrying the "what about me?" part, he might actually get luckier, since often when women feel loved and understood, they would feel more likely to please their men even if they can't get gratification for it.



PHTlump said:


> Read the back story. Jerry's wife is the one withholding affection. She is the primary breadwinner and on a continual power trip in the marriage. She loses attraction for Jerry the SAHD, gains some attraction back when he mans up, and then freaks out when she realizes that she's not in total control of the relationship any more.


We don't really know the story from the wife's perspective. All I've read form this topic is that the OP complains about his wife being controlling type and so on.

But I can tell you guys that when a woman does not feel loved and understood, as well as supported, the attraction does go way down and resentment can build up, which translates to withholding affection.

Also, is the wife really that bad at communicating? Sometimes, it can be incompatibility at communication instead. It could be the OP using the wrong words and making his wife not wanting to communicate with him at all.

With this I don't mean to take the wife's side, since I don't know this couple and all we have is the OP's point of view in this. Just wanted to present possibilities of what might be happening.

And by the way, back to the affection part. How is the OP showing affection? If he's showing affection as a preliminary to sexual stuffs, then it's no surprise she would not reciprocate and even get mad at it, since again it would show that he only has concerns for his own needs, plus his affections are not genuine emotional affections but only sexual affections.


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

Ok, I've read through the comments and since many of you may not know my story I understand the posts. 

I am a SAHD, she is breadwinner. I am planning on going back to school starting a new career in 2013. I am doing this for me, not to try and win back affection since my wife makes $200,000+ per year It would be impossible to match that in the future. 

We did not talk last night because she went to sleep at 8:30pm. I was up with kids doing homework. Seems if she really did want to talk she could have stayed up till the kids went to bed. 

Seems she has pretty much checked out of this marriage the last few weeks or maybe even longer. She got up this morning and left for work with no goodbye and not a word spoken to me. 

At this point I have lost all ability to even care. 

I have some decisions to make in the near future. I will not live my life like this with a woman who is a stranger to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

lilith23 said:


> So it is fine for the man to continue enjoying with BJs and alternatives, while the woman has to wait by herself 'till she finds solution for her UTI? So it is fine for the woman not finding it enjoyable, as long as the man does?


Good point. I suppose the old saw is true. "If Momma ain't happy, nobody's happy." It's certainly not reasonable for a wife to provide for a husband's needs if she's not getting pleasure out of it. I think my wife's wedding vows actually included the disclaimer, "as long as it's good for you." Of course, mine had no such provision. I'm expected to suck it up and deal with any inconveniences my wife's needs may cause me. And I do it. Because I love her. And I'm an adult.



lilith23 said:


> We don't really know the story from the wife's perspective. All I've read form this topic is that the OP complains about his wife being controlling type and so on.


So you'll assume he's lying? Why? You think we should just tell husbands to watch Oprah and be more sensitive, no matter what they write here? That would certainly cut down on bandwidth ("See sticky #1 - everything is the husband's fault") but it wouldn't be nearly as effective.



lilith23 said:


> But I can tell you guys that when a woman does not feel loved and understood, as well as supported, the attraction does go way down and resentment can build up, which translates to withholding affection.


Sure. But, if you had read jerry's back story, you would know that jerry supports the hell out of his wife. He may no longer bend over backwards for her every whim, but that's not a bad thing.

Jerry's wife has told him, explicitly, that she's not an empathetic person. You know the stereotype you have about men being louts who work all day, then come home, crack a beer, and tell their wives to let them know when dinner is on the table? Well reverse the sexes and you've got jerry and his wife.

She tells him she doesn't want him to get a career now that the children are in school. Then, she belittles him in public for not having a career. He also has interesting, but inconclusive, evidence that she cheated on him a year ago.

That love and support stuff is supposed to go both ways.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

lilith23 said:


> And by the way, back to the affection part. How is the OP showing affection? If he's showing affection as a preliminary to sexual stuffs, then it's no surprise she would not reciprocate and even get mad at it, since again it would show that he only has concerns for his own needs, plus his affections are not genuine emotional affections but only sexual affections.


For many women, the thought that their husbands lust after them is troubling. I don't really understand why that's a problem for women. Men can actually walk and chew bubble gum at the same time. We can feel love and respect for a woman we want to take to Pound Town.

Do you know who I don't lust after? My sister. Would you women actually prefer your husbands to stop showing you lust? Should I start kissing my wife on the cheek and telling her that I "love her like a sister?"

Should I advise my daughter to avoid all this sex in marriage drama by marrying her best gay friend? Should marriage just be an affectionate, but platonic, roommate situation? I wouldn't think so. But, I'm not a woman.


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## ScaredandUnsure (Nov 17, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> For many women, the thought that their husbands lust after them is troubling. I don't really understand why that's a problem for women. Men can actually walk and chew bubble gum at the same time. We can feel love and respect for a woman we want to take to Pound Town.
> 
> Do you know who I don't lust after? My sister. Would you women actually prefer your husbands to stop showing you lust? Should I start kissing my wife on the cheek and telling her that I "love her like a sister?"
> 
> Should I advise my daughter to avoid all this sex in marriage drama by marrying her best gay friend? Should marriage just be an affectionate, but platonic, roommate situation? I wouldn't think so. But, I'm not a woman.


I don't get it either. I want to be lusted after, loved and respected while living in Pound Town. Word.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Jerry, thanks for the catch up on this thread.

To some of the other posters.... logically, he's a SAHD. Sexually repressed for a long time. Money and time on his hands. Use some of that time to go get tested, make sure it's not something you are passing on during sex. Just sayin. No judgements. But I always assume there is a second side to the story 

Jerry,
I really do mean no judgements. I applaud your recent post.
I feel for you, being at home and not feeling like you could ever measure up to what she makes.

I happen to also be one of those women. I married a blue collar guy. On purpose. I enjoyed the down to earthness when I came home from the white collar politics. 

But I do think that MOST people are not equipped to live long term with a role reversal. It's.... un-natural. 

So that being said, what does a person do?
You apply the man of the house attitude to your home. 
It's all about attitude. It's about not letting someone belittle you in public. It's about being better than she is at everything other than work. It's about being tough during the power struggle, not caving because she's freaking out about losing the power. 

Work is her domain. Work ends when she steps through the door, and you are the man of the house. Without you... she's just what?
A paycheque. 

Boundaries, Jerry.


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## lilith23 (Sep 6, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> So you'll assume he's lying? Why? You think we should just tell husbands to watch Oprah and be more sensitive, no matter what they write here? That would certainly cut down on bandwidth ("See sticky #1 - everything is the husband's fault") but it wouldn't be nearly as effective.
> 
> 
> Sure. But, if you had read jerry's back story, you would know that jerry supports the hell out of his wife. He may no longer bend over backwards for her every whim, but that's not a bad thing.
> ...


Eh? I didn't say that he lied, I simply meant what I've said, that all I can know from here is from his perspective only. Present me the same post with a woman instead of a man complaining the same, about how his husband is controlling or <insert a list of bad stuffs> and I would say the same, that I can't know the truth of the story since I'm only listening to one side.

A partner might lack of expression skills, but then sometimes the other partner might lack of tact and often says the wrong things which would not help too, if not worsen the situation. Sometimes, you can have person A not good at expressing himself/herself, then person B tries to talk to A to get A to express himself/herself, but with the poor choice of words, it only made A more distant. Of course A should give some effort to express himself/herself if A really cares for B, but sometimes B can try to think if his/her own choice of words and communication style is really helping or worsening, instead of being clueless and just think that it's entirely A's problem. Coz sometimes it's really entirely A's problem, sometimes it's not.

I can even give you an example in which the woman makes a man who does not know how to properly express himself get worse. Imagine a man that is not good at saying how he feels. Of course he could try to improve himself, but imagine that his wife gets worried and tries to talk to him, which is a good thing, but in a rather stressing way that makes the talk aversive to the husband, to the point that he prefers to avoid these talks rather. Then the woman would be clueless, wondering why he does not talk, and eventually concluded that it's entirely husband's fault. Again, it might or might not be in this case, but it's a possibility.


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## lilith23 (Sep 6, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> For many women, the thought that their husbands lust after them is troubling. I don't really understand why that's a problem for women. Men can actually walk and chew bubble gum at the same time. We can feel love and respect for a woman we want to take to Pound Town.
> 
> Do you know who I don't lust after? My sister. Would you women actually prefer your husbands to stop showing you lust? Should I start kissing my wife on the cheek and telling her that I "love her like a sister?"
> 
> Should I advise my daughter to avoid all this sex in marriage drama by marrying her best gay friend? Should marriage just be an affectionate, but platonic, roommate situation? I wouldn't think so. But, I'm not a woman.


Having your partner lust after you (whether man or woman) is a good thing, but it is a problem if you are having problems like UTI so that you can't enjoy it, but your partner still wants alternatives coz he/she wants to be pleased, whether or not you are pleased.

And I can't see how can we not separate lust and affection. Can't you feel affectionate for hugs and cuddles without it leading to sex? Not all affectionate displays have to lead to sex, as if affection is only shown as a kind of foreplay before sex, right? And that is what I was saying.


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

I get your points here. If she is not feeling good then her desire to please me is zero. It's not like I told her the hell with your condition, just please me. I made the drs. appt for her. Pressed her to go. Made it known we need to fix this. Told her I understand her comment about cooling it down with sex. I made the comment that we can do other things and she went ballistic. So it seems in her eyes I should just suck it up and not expect any kind of enjoyment. So chastize me if you must, i am human. If it were turned around I would never react that way but hey everyone is different. What I am saying is when she told me about cooling it down I would have liked to hear from her mouth is "let's cool it down but I could please you in other ways". Is that such a far fetched thing to want to hear from a wife of 15 years. 

As for her not wanting me to work, she said she prefers me to stay home. That's because if and when I do work she will have to step it up at home. 

I also may believe she is depressed. 

And I swear on my life that what I am writing here is the truth. I deal with this every day of my life. 

She is not your typical woman/wife. She is in your face, dominate, non submissive person. She brings her work personality home and has treated me like an employee at times. She can't seperate work and home. She is used to ordering men and women around at work. I've seen the people she works with. Seen how they act towards her. She calls these people her "group". She manages around 10-12 men and women. I can honestly say she is where she is for being a hard worker AND because I was able to quit my career so she can further hers. I am called selfish when I tell her that by her. Her job is her life. Yeah, I understand because she is the breadwinner the stress to preform at work is high but should she put work over a husband and two kids. Absolutely not!!

So I am left having to man up, knock down Sh&t test all the time. Can anyone here truthfully see what I deal. The answer is, no because 99.9% of guys would not put up with it. And I don't. I used to, but now I don't. But maybe the damage is done. In IC during the summer the woman says its tough for people to change. My wife has had it good for a long time. Why would she want that to change. 

So in conclusion this is what I think is up:

She may be depressed
She does not like that I man up
She views it as losing control
She likes the power, when power is taken away she rebels


Example: I tell the kids to do something (take a bath, do homework, clean up) she has to everytime repeat what I say right after I say it. OMFG, why repeat to kids something I just said. They heard me but she has to repeat it in a louder and stronger voice. 
I banging my forehead with my fist right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Jerry whether or not she has cheated the way she has been treating you is disgusting you are nothing but a babysitter to her. I don't know if a talk with her would matter at this point. I would say go see a couple lawyers see what your future looks like and make a decision one way or another. Good luck.


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

tom67 said:


> Jerry whether or not she has cheated the way she has been treating you is disgusting you are nothing but a babysitter to her. I don't know if a talk with her would matter at this point. I would say go see a couple lawyers see what your future looks like and make a decision one way or another. Good luck.


I have been really thinking of doing this. Just to see what my options are. Being a SAHD I most likely will get the same thing as a SAHM. 


BTW, while I was typing this she emailed me this: " sorry for falling asleep. I did not do that on purpose"

I sent a short response and said we can talk tonight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

jerry123 said:


> As for her not wanting me to work, she said she prefers me to stay home. That's because if and when I do work she will have to step it up at home.


What do you want to do? Forget all the other crap, her feelings, her inconvenience, all of it. Do you want to get a job, or do you like being at home and running it?


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Jerry I remember some your other post with the details of your situation. I think the sex thing is a giant red herring. 

The crying at MC is BS. Anyone making 200K can communicate. She is not communicating with you because she does not need to. 

First, your wife does not repect, and appreciate you. She does need you to be her "wife". Turn this around, if you were a woman and she the man, what would you think? 

From the things she says, she may hold you in comtempt. This is serious situation for your mental health and that of your children. 

Second, there is a strong possibility that she is having an affair. As difficult as that is to get our head around, you must do exhaustive investigation to find out who is getting her emotional and sexual attention. 

The fact that she is making such a high salary, may inflate her ego, just as it does for men. She may think she is entitled to a better model for a man. 

She works with high powered men I assume. She probably finds them more sexually attractive than you. She spends more time in shared activity with them than she does with you.

It is difficult for me to believe that she has not formed an attachment. There is a void because she is not attached to her husband, right.

I think you should drop all of those books. You situation is not covered in them. You need first of all to regain your dignity and to use the power that your manhood (testosterone) gives you. 

First thing to do is to get a comphrehensive physical exam and testosterone level. Then put together a comprehensive plan of investigation for cheating. 

I assume she travels, spends a lot of time that you cannot account for. You need to get at what she is doing. 

Third, you need to put together an exit plan. I am not minimizing the need to work hard on the marriage. However, at this point, you cannot get her economic attention and she is alienated on an emotional level.

Forth, get a babysitter and get out. Get a hobby, take courses, get in contact with adults every day. 

Unless you can get a high paying job, and get her emotional attachment you don't have a marriage. Essentially, you are an indentured servant.

That is seriously [email protected] up.


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

As for maybe the UTI's being from a STD, I have never been tested. That did cross my mind when I was googling UTI causes and it said possibly from chlamydia. I brushed it aside because she has been the only woman I have slept with in 18 years. I have none of the symptoms but from what I read 1-4 men have no symptoms. 

There are at home kits that I can do. But they are expensive. . Does the dr take samples at office?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Cath, jerry's been investigating for almost a year now. A few suspicious things have turned up (he caught her on a VAR saying she loves her secrets) but nothing that stands out as definite cheating

it hasn't been for lack of trying


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## lilith23 (Sep 6, 2012)

jerry123 said:


> I get your points here. If she is not feeling good then her desire to please me is zero. It's not like I told her the hell with your condition, just please me. I made the drs. appt for her. Pressed her to go. Made it known we need to fix this. Told her I understand her comment about cooling it down with sex. I made the comment that we can do other things and she went ballistic. So it seems in her eyes I should just suck it up and not expect any kind of enjoyment. So chastize me if you must, i am human. If it were turned around I would never react that way but hey everyone is different. What I am saying is when she told me about cooling it down I would have liked to hear from her mouth is "let's cool it down but I could please you in other ways". Is that such a far fetched thing to want to hear from a wife of 15 years.


It's not exactly a matter of whose at fault, I mean, you have your own needs and she has hers. In the perfect world, the husband would show all his support and not ask for sex 'till wife can be cured of UTI and enjoy it again; while the wife would continue to please the husband in alternate ways. But in your case, you asked her for alternate ways instead, and she got angered by thinking that you put your needs in the first place.



jerry123 said:


> As for her not wanting me to work, she said she prefers me to stay home. That's because if and when I do work she will have to step it up at home.
> 
> I also may believe she is depressed.
> 
> ...


99.9% of guys would not put up with it, but then maybe you would not put up with their problems too. Everyone has their own problems. Also, no one is saying that you are not speaking of the truth, just saying that we don't know more than what happened in your perspective.

But since she has been such a controlling wife, did you attempt to talk to her in the past? Or just put up with it? Sometimes, some people tend to put up with their partners' bossiness rather than confront them to make things fair, for the sake of peace. If you have only tried to put up with her bossiness for all these years, things are probably too rooted to change. People can change if they are confronted sometimes, but if there's no strong enough confrontation, they might get too used to it or even get worse.


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

Catherine602: I agree with your post. I have done 8 months of investigation. VAR/GPS/pen recorder in pocket book. This is what I found. 

1) while at IC in May 2012, I told her to wait for me in sexy outfit when I get home. The VAR caught her email/texting someone. She said "you're so f'in bad. " then repeated a text/email "wish I had that college apartment there" then a few "Whoa's". She was waiting for me and we had sex. I check her phone to see why she would be repeating those things and nothing to be found. Most likely deleted. 

2) in August after getting back 1 week from a work trip VAR picked up her in car reading an email/text. Her response was "shut up, you f'in miss me" 
And on top of that her right leg had a bruise on it. I swear it looked like a bruise from a palm and a few other small bruises above that that looked like it could be finger bruises!!

3) her saying on VAR. "I love keeping secrets"

So in all likelihood it sounds like a guy who is in college/was in college where she travels for work. That's all I can come up with. I check her phone for texts/emails and there are none to see.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

lilith23 said:


> It's not exactly a matter of whose at fault, I mean, you have your own needs and she has hers. In the perfect world, the husband would show all his support and not ask for sex 'till wife can be cured of UTI and enjoy it again; while the wife would continue to please the husband in alternate ways. But in your case, you asked her for alternate ways instead, and she got angered by thinking that you put your needs in the first place.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I did put up with it for years. That was my biggest mistake. I would not confront her because i did not want to make waves. 

I am def not that guy now. And that's why I get the attitude from her. She wants me to just take it. I won't anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

jerry123 said:


> I did put up with it for years. That was my biggest mistake. I would not confront her because i did not want to make waves.
> 
> I am def not that guy now. And that's why I get the attitude from her. She wants me to just take it. I won't anymore.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hey if she has nothing to hide maybe suggest a polygraph test see how she reacts. Better to get your ducks in a row financially before she does something drastic just prepare stay calm tonight.


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

tom67 said:


> Hey if she has nothing to hide maybe suggest a polygraph test see how she reacts. Better to get your ducks in a row financially before she does something drastic just prepare stay calm tonight.


I have been putting money in a bank account in my name just in case. I control paying the bills so its something she does not miss. 

I have figured out if it comes down to a divorce I would net around $160,000 from sale of house, savings, 401k. That's not including alimony and child support. 

I would go that route if I had more concrete evidence. I know the recordings sound like there is/was something going on but I can't find hard evidence like an email or text. If I did find that then I would gather up all evidence and confront.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Jerry, you sound much more focused and confident than you did a few months ago. Good for you!

A few points. First, her comment about locking the door could be coming from a trauma such as sex abuse or assault in her past. Triggers are odd things in trauma. My wife is triggered by a particular candy and a particular song. Anyhow, it could be a new thing which didn't trigger her before, or it could be total bullcrap she is using as an excuse. I would consider it a possible real trigger for her and just avoid locking the door.

Her UTI could be a smokescreen for an STD she knows she has. If she is having a flare up of herpes or genital warts she might avoid sex and use the UTI excuse. It would explain her avoidance of docs because she knows the real answer.

Do get a full STD check yourself. It costs about $150 and takes an hour of your time. Go to a real STD clinic or a place like planned parenthood. Your family doc or urologist may not do std tests and/or they may not do comprehensive testing.

Our county clinic has an excellent privacy system so there is no way a spouse could accidentally stumble on records online or hear a phone voicemail.


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## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

jerry123 said:


> Example: I tell the kids to do something (take a bath, do homework, clean up) she has to everytime repeat what I say right after I say it. OMFG, why repeat to kids something I just said. They heard me but she has to repeat it in a louder and stronger voice.
> I banging my forehead with my fist right now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Is this possibly because she doesn't think the kids take you seriously? Do they not respond to your commands right away?
Since you are at home with them, spending more time with them, does she feel as though you are more of a playmate to them instead of an authority figure?


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

What proof are you waiting for? She has zero respect for you. I forgot like others have said get that STD test. Ask her to take a polygraph then if you want more proof but you have given her more than enough time to come around. First you thought it was the neighbor now it could be someone else just get a polygraph.


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## NewM (Apr 11, 2012)

jerry123 said:


> I would go that route if I had more concrete evidence.


Why should she change then?That is why she isn't changing much,she knows you wont divorce her over just being disrespectful.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Thor said:


> First, her comment about locking the door could be coming from a trauma such as sex abuse or assault in her past.


It is unlikely that such a trigger would pop up suddenly on a woman in her late thirties. Also, she would understand that it was a trigger and explain it as such, rather than accusing her husband of being a pervert for wanting sex behind a locked door.



Thor said:


> Her UTI could be a smokescreen for an STD she knows she has. If she is having a flare up of herpes or genital warts she might avoid sex and use the UTI excuse. It would explain her avoidance of docs because she knows the real answer.


This is also unlikely. Her UTIs have been recurring for years. And she has seen doctors for them. And the doctors have prescribed antibiotics. Any STDs that are treated with antibiotics would have been cured long ago. And the doctors wouldn't prescribe antibiotics for a viral disease such as herpes.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

jerry123 said:


> Catherine602: I agree with your post. I have done 8 months of investigation. VAR/GPS/pen recorder in pocket book. This is what I found.
> 
> 1) while at IC in May 2012, I told her to wait for me in sexy outfit when I get home. The VAR caught her email/texting someone. She said "you're so f'in bad. " then repeated a text/email "wish I had that college apartment there" then a few "Whoa's". She was waiting for me and we had sex. I check her phone to see why she would be repeating those things and nothing to be found. Most likely deleted.
> 
> ...


Why would she erase email and text immediately? I never do that do you? If I had something to hide I would. 

She gets home and text /email someone. Then you get home in a short time latter and all the text/emails are gone. Why? If your investigation has been VAR only then that is not enough. You are not getting adequate info. She sounds very friendly and communicative with who ever she is talking to, does she ever sound this way with you? 

Jerry I think a big part of this is that you don't want to leave. You want to stay married but you want your wife to change. She may change into the woman you need but it is more likely that she likes the status quo and has no reason to change. 

Are you sure that you want to do the work to change yourself to get ready for a new life? It will be hard. I think you are worth some hard work, what do you think? 

You may think a better life is not possible if you divorce. I see it differently but then I am looking from the outside so it's easy for me. One thing I do know from reading your post and not even seeing you that you will find a woman who will love and appreciate you if you select among available women carefully. 

You won't reach a decision right away but give your marriage your all, but at the same tome, make a firm time commitment and then pull the switch. Give yourself time to get used to the idea and to prepare. Make small steps to make a new life. 

What ever you do, you need more independence and contact with adults every day. What is your day like?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> For many women, the thought that their husbands lust after them is troubling. I don't really understand why that's a problem for women. Men can actually walk and chew bubble gum at the same time. We can feel love and respect for a woman we want to take to Pound Town.
> 
> Do you know who I don't lust after? My sister. Would you women actually prefer your husbands to stop showing you lust? Should I start kissing my wife on the cheek and telling her that I "love her like a sister?"
> 
> Should I advise my daughter to avoid all this sex in marriage drama by marrying her best gay friend? Should marriage just be an affectionate, but platonic, roommate situation? I wouldn't think so. *But, I'm not a woman*.


I like your post up to the last sentence. It sounds like all women think the way you have exampled. That is not the case at all and a huge generalisation.

I am a woman, I want to be lusted after and I understand a lot about men.


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> Why would she erase email and text immediately? I never do that do you? If I had something to hide I would.
> 
> She gets home and text /email someone. Then you get home in a short time latter and all the text/emails are gone. Why? If your investigation has been VAR only then that is not enough. You are not getting adequate info. She sounds very friendly and communicative with who ever she is talking to, does she ever sound this way with you?
> 
> ...



Yeah, hate to put my two kids through a divorce but what type of father/husband would I want to show my son how to be when he grows up? That its ok to be disrespected by a woman. 

As for the VAR, these things were captured over a 8 month period. I've been diligent in my investigation. I check VAR, GPS, phone and I need to be 100% sure. The recordings are not the nail in coffin. I need to confront with an email or text or recording that she can't explain away. You have to understand my wife, if she did cheat or still is, there's zero guilt, zero reason to confess. I made the horrible mistake to confront back in April with no evidence. I won't make that mistake again...

My interaction with adults is limited. I am at my daughters school 2 x a week.(I interact with mom, dads and teachers) I play in a poker league 2x a month. (20 guys)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

lilith23 said:


> Having your partner lust after you (whether man or woman) is a good thing, but it is a problem if you are having problems like UTI so that you can't enjoy it, but your partner still wants alternatives coz he/she wants to be pleased, whether or not you are pleased.


You are focused on the UTI without utilizing the proper context. A UTI is a legitimate reason to avoid sex *for a time*. And that time is measured in days or perhaps weeks, not months. A wife who has a UTI and schedules a doctor's appointment to deal with it 2-3 months into the future is simply using the UTI as an excuse to avoid sex with her husband.

Also, you seem to believe that a marriage should be an arrangement that is either good for both husband and wife, or good for just the wife. I disagree. I think husbands should get some consideration as well. If there is a situation that temporarily means that the husband will have an easier time in the marriage than the wife, I think the wife would be petty to insist that she won't participate in such an arrangement.



lilith23 said:


> And I can't see how can we not separate lust and affection. Can't you feel affectionate for hugs and cuddles without it leading to sex? Not all affectionate displays have to lead to sex, as if affection is only shown as a kind of foreplay before sex, right? And that is what I was saying.


I can feel affection for my wife without requiring sex, yes. All men can. There isn't a man in the world that insists that all affection or physical contact lead to sex, regardless of what some women think.

What I can't do is stop feeling lust for my wife. It's there constantly. It only abates for a few hours after we have sex. Then, it resurfaces and I'm good to go again. My libido would be perfectly happy to have sex twice a day. And I communicate this lust to my wife in my actions. She knows that I want her.

Now, I'm not going to pitch a fit if we don't have sex twice a day, even though my drive could handle it. No man would. But I'm also not going to act like a eunuch around my wife for 5-6 days a week so that she doesn't have to feel uncomfortable with my lust for her.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

jerry123 said:


> I check VAR, GPS, phone and I need to be 100% sure.


Your wife's phone and computer are through work so that you can't put spyware on, correct? If so, then you're limited to hoping that she forgets to delete something incriminating. Do you have access to her billing records?



jerry123 said:


> I need to confront with an email or text or recording that she can't explain away. You have to understand my wife, if she did cheat or still is, there's zero guilt, zero reason to confess. I made the horrible mistake to confront back in April with no evidence. I won't make that mistake again...


While it is a mistake to confront with no evidence, it's not necessary to have your wife dead to rights and get a confession out of her. All states are no fault. That means it doesn't matter if you have videotape of your wife hosting an orgy, or you're just tired of the way she arranges her sock drawer. The divorce goes the same way regardless. You don't need proof except to convince yourself.

Now, if you just can't bring yourself to pull the trigger until you have ironclad proof, then I understand. But don't make the common mistake of believing that you need to meet someone else's burden of proof.

Good luck.


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## lilith23 (Sep 6, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> You are focused on the UTI without utilizing the proper context. A UTI is a legitimate reason to avoid sex *for a time*. And that time is measured in days or perhaps weeks, not months. A wife who has a UTI and schedules a doctor's appointment to deal with it 2-3 months into the future is simply using the UTI as an excuse to avoid sex with her husband.
> 
> Also, *you seem to believe that a marriage should be an arrangement that is either good for both husband and wife, or good for just the wife*. I disagree. I think husbands should get some consideration as well. If there is a situation that temporarily means that the husband will have an easier time in the marriage than the wife, I think the wife would be petty to insist that she won't participate in such an arrangement.


With what did you assume what I marked in bold? Just coz I think that sex should be when both enjoys it, and not something to be asked for the sake of one's side enjoyment when the other side can't really enjoy it for a while and asked for temporary cool down?

Can't really say the same for OP's woman, since there are many issues involved and not just this UTI issue, but many women would happily take care of their men's need if they feel understood and supported, while they would feel mad if they feel that their men would focus on their own needs first by saying things like "you can't enjoy/have sex temporarily but can you still please me?". In other words, satisfy a good woman's emotional needs, and she will satisfy your needs too. Not all woman would be thoughtful, but then the same goes for men. Again, in the perfect world, OP would have agreed with the cool down period and offer understanding and abstinance together with wife, while wife would be toughtful of OP and continue making him happy in other ways. But in this case, OP said the wrong things and wife reacted negatively.



PHTlump said:


> I can feel affection for my wife without requiring sex, yes. All men can. There isn't a man in the world that insists that all affection or physical contact lead to sex, regardless of what some women think.
> 
> What I can't do is stop feeling lust for my wife. It's there constantly. It only abates for a few hours after we have sex. Then, it resurfaces and I'm good to go again. My libido would be perfectly happy to have sex twice a day. And I communicate this lust to my wife in my actions. She knows that I want her.
> 
> Now, I'm not going to pitch a fit if we don't have sex twice a day, even though my drive could handle it. No man would. But I'm also not going to act like a eunuch around my wife for 5-6 days a week so that she doesn't have to feel uncomfortable with my lust for her.


It's not about feeling lust after your partner, but rather about insisting on getting satisfied when it is temporarily inconvenient or not enjoyable for your partner. And by the way, it goes for both men and women.

And by the way, for some women, doing sexual stuffs while not being satisfied in the end can be very frustrating too... Just imagine that you have some temporary health issue that makes you unable to finish off, but then you have to satisfy your partner. It leaves you in some very excited state, yet you can't finish it. This might not be true in this case (again, too many issues in the relationship), but it's true to many women and can make it further annoying when a man just asks for being satisfied instead of being understanding of her temporary state.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

lilith23 said:


> With what did you assume what I marked in bold? Just coz I think that sex should be when both enjoys it, and not something to be asked for the sake of one's side enjoyment when the other side can't really enjoy it for a while and asked for temporary cool down?


I don't call a sexual reprieve of months to be reasonable. If I stub my toe, I would be equally unreasonable to insist that my wife push me around in a wheel chair for the next year.

You have stated explicitly that you support a wife refusing to provide for her husband's needs if she won't be pleasured by it. Given your comments to the OP in this thread, you imply that you hold no such similar standard for husbands. That's where I got the double standard.



lilith23 said:


> Can't really say the same for OP's woman, since there are many issues involved and not just this UTI issue, but many women would happily take care of their men's need if they feel understood and supported, while they would feel mad if they feel that their men would focus on their own needs first by saying things like "you can't enjoy/have sex temporarily but can you still please me?". In other words, satisfy a good woman's emotional needs, and she will satisfy your needs too.


So, it's reasonable for a husband to expect his wife provide for his needs even if she takes no pleasure from it. But it is unreasonable for this expectation to be acknowledged? I disagree. I think communication is key in a marriage. If a wife providing for her husband's needs is a reasonable request, then the request itself can't be unreasonable.



lilith23 said:


> Again, in the perfect world, OP would have agreed with the cool down period and offer understanding and abstinance together with wife, while wife would be toughtful of OP and continue making him happy in other ways. But in this case, OP said the wrong things and wife reacted negatively.


Again, I disagree. A perfect marriage doesn't depend on games and mind reading. In a perfect marriage, reasonable requests are met with reasonable responses.



lilith23 said:


> It's not about feeling lust after your partner, but rather about insisting on getting satisfied when it is temporarily inconvenient or not enjoyable for your partner. And by the way, it goes for both men and women.


I agree that a temporary reprieve from sex is sometimes reasonable and necessary. But that's not the case in this thread. The wife is taking a reasonable excuse for a short reprieve and making it an unreasonable excuse for a long period of celibacy. Given that, the husband's actions were reasonable. He didn't state that he was unwilling to go a week without sex. He stated that he wasn't willing to go months without sex. The bastard.



lilith23 said:


> And by the way, for some women, doing sexual stuffs while not being satisfied in the end can be very frustrating too... Just imagine that you have some temporary health issue that makes you unable to finish off, but then you have to satisfy your partner. It leaves you in some very excited state, yet you can't finish it. This might not be true in this case (again, too many issues in the relationship), but it's true to many women and can make it further annoying when a man just asks for being satisfied instead of being understanding of her temporary state.


That would be an unfortunate scenario. But sometimes, life is hard. A wife who insists that, if she can't be sexually satisfied, then her husband doesn't deserve to be sexually satisfied, is a selfish wife. It's a petty attitude. That's also part of where I inferred your double standard of satisfaction.

Mutual satisfaction is a worthy goal in a sex life. But it's not always achievable. Especially temporarily. Reasonable spouses who love each other recognize this and make accommodations. Unreasonable and selfish spouses insist that they must be satisfied before they consider satisfying their spouses.


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## lilith23 (Sep 6, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> I don't call a sexual reprieve of months to be reasonable. If I stub my toe, I would be equally unreasonable to insist that my wife push me around in a wheel chair for the next year.
> 
> You have stated explicitly that you support a wife refusing to provide for her husband's needs if she won't be pleasured by it. Given your comments to the OP in this thread, you imply that you hold no such similar standard for husbands. That's where I got the double standard.


Again, where did you conclude that I implied that I hold no such similar standard for husbands? For me, it's the same. It's insensitive if not selfish for a partner, whether man or woman, to focus on his/her own needs instead of showing support and dealing with the issue together instead of being the only one to get satisfaction.

Of course that given the OP's case, which is actually more complicated than what he stated in the first post, the problem is not even about husband asking for wife to satisfy him instead of waiting and supporting for the wife to recover temporarily. It seems that the sexual problems are just part of the problem, and the relationship has much deeper issues that ended up affecting the sexual issues.



PHTlump said:


> So, it's reasonable for a husband to expect his wife provide for his needs even if she takes no pleasure from it. But it is unreasonable for this expectation to be acknowledged? I disagree. I think communication is key in a marriage. If a wife providing for her husband's needs is a reasonable request, then the request itself can't be unreasonable.
> 
> 
> Again, I disagree. A perfect marriage doesn't depend on games and mind reading. In a perfect marriage, reasonable requests are met with reasonable responses.


It is reasonable for the husband to have needs, but unreasonable when you put your needs first and go ask your partner to satisfy them in alternate ways, when the partner asked for cool down for a while.

IMO, it's reasonable for people to have needs, but isn't it selfishness when we ask for our needs to be met when our partner can't do that temporarily? I don't care if it's man or woman, if it's physical or emotional needs or financial needs, but there are times our partners can't do it temporarily (whether health issues, physical or emotional tiredness and so on). If I have some needs to be met (let's say that I'm having some bad days) and need some emotional support by having my husband spend time with me, talk to me and cheer me up, is it ok for me to ask him "what about my needs?" if he is going through a tiresome period with work? Of course I can't be forever ignored and there's a limit, but then as his partner, I can hold it to myself for some time, while letting my partner recover first. Same goes as sex, I don't go there and ask "what about my needs?" if he has some STD that makes his thing itchy and uncomfortable and can't finish off. That wouldn't be fun for him, and he would get very aroused and can't finish off. He might also feel more uncomfortable due to feeling aroused.

And IMO, I don't even feel enjoyable if my husband is not exactly enjoying it. Maybe that's just me and my husband as well, but the last times where one of us is being pleased by the other who was suffering from some health issue and was being uncomfortable or even painful (yes it happened for both me and him), it was not really enjoyable for the one who is getting pleased.




PHTlump said:


> I agree that a temporary reprieve from sex is sometimes reasonable and necessary. But that's not the case in this thread. The wife is taking a reasonable excuse for a short reprieve and making it an unreasonable excuse for a long period of celibacy. Given that, the husband's actions were reasonable. He didn't state that he was unwilling to go a week without sex. He stated that he wasn't willing to go months without sex. The bastard.


So I guess that we actually agreed that temporary reprieve is ok. My previous comments are actually more focused on that, since it was what the first post of this thread seemed. Now if there are deeper issues (possible infidelity, lack of attraction, disrespect, and so on), then it's not even a matter of arguing about temporary reprieve being reasonable or not.



PHTlump said:


> That would be an unfortunate scenario. But sometimes, life is hard. A wife who insists that, if she can't be sexually satisfied, then her husband doesn't deserve to be sexually satisfied, is a selfish wife. It's a petty attitude. That's also part of where I inferred your double standard of satisfaction.
> 
> Mutual satisfaction is a worthy goal in a sex life. But it's not always achievable. Especially temporarily. Reasonable spouses who love each other recognize this and make accommodations. *Unreasonable and selfish spouses insist that they must be satisfied before they consider satisfying their spouses.*


Again, where's the double standards? Did I ever say that husband doesn't deserve the same respect? That it is ok for the husband to satisfy the wife even if he can't get pleasure from it? That he has to deal with being highly aroused but not being able to finish off?
If you ever have some STD that makes you feel temporarily uncomfortable or even painful, specially when you get aroused (not to mention again, highly aroused while not able to finish off since touching your stuff can make the disease worse), you might not find it fun if your partner still asks you "what about my needs?" instead of waiting for you to get better first.
(but then again, the OP's real issue is not about this and all that caused the whole celibacy is lack of attraction, love and respect)

I think that you're the one with double standards, specially with the sentence I've marked in bold. So it is ok for the husband to have her wife being considerate of his needs before hers, but not for the wife to have his husband being considerate of her needs (which is support and not making things uncomfortable for a while) before his?

So do you actually agree that it's fine to reprieve sex temporarily or not?


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## Pault (Aug 15, 2012)

Just tookl time going through all the posts again.
From a stand point the alledged UTI. 
If a female gets one its normally more uncomfortable than if a male gets on. It can case the sysmtoms of thrush, itching, soreness and pain when passing water. Sex is certainly a no go area. Someone (male or female) WILL want to seek some kind of medical intervention wheather seeing a Dr or seeking off shelf medication from a pharmacist. I guess female reading this will agee thus far. To book an appointment for months in advance seems somewhat out of this world as the symtoms of UTIs can cause urinary tack and kidney infections of a type no one will want i.e.Pyelonephritis.
Jerry have you noted across this whole period of time a pattern in the onset of the "UTI" in comparison with nights away, times when shes, nights out with "friends". There is a statment made by many Drs referring to UTIs called honeymoon infection. Basically alot of sex in a short period of time similar to that of honeymooners. This could be a lead to others involved with your W.
Another issue of UTI is that a male CAN carry an initial infection and when the W's symtoms clear up they have sex and the W is re-infected. It may be you make a point of sayint to her that "because your concerned about the UTI and woory about her health you'll also get a check up to make sure your not transfering back to her". She'll see this as a reason to stop sex (no change there so far) but by coming back clean and not carryng anything then its a box ticked that cannot be used as a no go reason. Added to this is a wise comment on Chlamydia. Yes guys can carry it without symtoms, however, if your W is the only sexual partner youve had and you have the infection then its as hell didnt come off a toilet seat............. You then have reasons to ask very serious questions and the answers may not be all you want to hear but hear them you must.
Your w seems to want to bring her Alpha role home and impose it. Your right to kick back. Marridge is a partnership valued at 50% each. Many, Many husbands are now having to be house husbands across the world, not just in your home. Its the nature of the recession and the fallout seen. IMO no matter who can make the money its a survival game and both parties play a part. If you didnt see to the kids, house etc youd be wrong there looking after a home is a massive multi tasking role (I bet no ladies reading this will tell me otherwise lol) the fact you do it releases her and allows here freedom to work and have a social life. Make that your standpoint. But also make a point of monitoring and use the old saying. Give her enough role and she'll hang herself. 
The issue of seeing to YOUR needs. I suspect I stand differently here. If there is a medical issue and your W is suffering then it may be somewhat unfair to want your satisfaction when she may not be able to enjoy hers. However, if she is enjoying it elsewhere you have the right to kick off about it.


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## Waking up to life (Nov 29, 2012)

Taking a step back and looking at the broader picture...

You seem to be consumed by suspicion; trying to catch her with VAR, pen recorder, GPS, etc. I'm not saying she's not doing anything wrong, but you clearly don't trust her. So you haven't found any "concrete evidence" to pin on her, despite your months of surveillance. How long will you keep this up? If she really isn't cheating on you, what "evidence" are you looking for to assure yourself of that?

If you've had to resort to monitoring her like an FBI agent, I'd say there are more problems in this marriage than just her unwillingness to have sex. 

Divorce her. You don't trust her. You're looking for evidence that she's in the wrong, and you won't be satisfied until you find it.


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

Pault said:


> Just tookl time going through all the posts again.
> From a stand point the alledged UTI.
> If a female gets one its normally more uncomfortable than if a male gets on. It can case the sysmtoms of thrush, itching, soreness and pain when passing water. Sex is certainly a no go area. Someone (male or female) WILL want to seek some kind of medical intervention wheather seeing a Dr or seeking off shelf medication from a pharmacist. I guess female reading this will agee thus far. To book an appointment for months in advance seems somewhat out of this world as the symtoms of UTIs can cause urinary tack and kidney infections of a type no one will want i.e.Pyelonephritis.
> Jerry have you noted across this whole period of time a pattern in the onset of the "UTI" in comparison with nights away, times when shes, nights out with "friends". There is a statment made by many Drs referring to UTIs called honeymoon infection. Basically alot of sex in a short period of time similar to that of honeymooners. This could be a lead to others involved with your W.
> ...



Had a 2 hour talk last night, I will elaborate in a post in next few hours. 


To answer this post: the only way I could be giving anything to my wife would be me having chlymidia or another STD. I could get a UTI and pass to her but its unlikely that I would not know it. That being said, I have NOT had sex with any other woman since I started dating my wife. If I get tested and it comes back as C then it seems my questions will be answered. And I mean a lot of questions will be answered.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

Waking up to life said:


> Taking a step back and looking at the broader picture...
> 
> You seem to be consumed by suspicion; trying to catch her with VAR, pen recorder, GPS, etc. I'm not saying she's not doing anything wrong, but you clearly don't trust her. So you haven't found any "concrete evidence" to pin on her, despite your months of surveillance. How long will you keep this up? If she really isn't cheating on you, what "evidence" are you looking for to assure yourself of that?
> 
> ...



I agree, been thinking of why and how long I will keep this up. Most guys/gals who suspect find out in a week or two via GPS or VAR.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

I've discussed this before with Jerry, I am of the opinion that his wife may be a "part time" or "opportunistic" cheater. IOW, she gets some strange maybe 3-4 times a year if that. Keeps it NSA and only when it is "safe" to as such where the likelihood of being caught is at a minimum. (like on a business trip) I think there a chunk of businessmen who behave this way (like with prostitutes or ONS's at a bar on trips) and never get caught.

as a result it's going to be very hard to catch her in the act


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## lilith23 (Sep 6, 2012)

jerry123, if you don't mind me asking just out of curiosity, what did you love about your wife back then?

Not being able to trust our partners, not getting respect and the partner not feeling attracted to us in any way is really harsh... I'm not experienced with this kind of situation (and I'm glad for this), but it would be very unbearable to share the same roof with someone whom I have a relationship like that. If you don't really see anything that can help the situation, wouldn't it be better to give yourself a chance to meet someone else and be happy, by leaving this relationship?
Your kids might not understand now, but in the future they would agree that it's a good decision and it teaches them that everyone is responsible for their own happiness and there's hope for happiness if they have courage to terminate what needs to be terminated.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

lilith23 said:


> Again, where did you conclude that I implied that I hold no such similar standard for husbands? For me, it's the same. It's insensitive if not selfish for a partner, whether man or woman, to focus on his/her own needs instead of showing support and dealing with the issue together instead of being the only one to get satisfaction.


Your posts started by suggesting that Jerry forego his needs to focus on satisfying his wife's needs. Yet you have refused to acknowledge that his wife has any responsibility to satisfy Jerry's needs. That's the double standard.



lilith23 said:


> It seems that the sexual problems are just part of the problem, and the relationship has much deeper issues that ended up affecting the sexual issues.


True. This has been a long time coming.



lilith23 said:


> IMO, it's reasonable for people to have needs, but isn't it selfishness when we ask for our needs to be met when our partner can't do that temporarily?


Temporarily? Yes. Indefinitely? No.



lilith23 said:


> Of course I can't be forever ignored and there's a limit, but then as his partner, I can hold it to myself for some time, while letting my partner recover first.


Exactly the point. If your husband had a bad time at work and didn't want to listen to your problems for a night, or a week, then you should give him space. If your husband had a bad time at work, came home and announced that planned to ignore your needs indefinitely, then you should absolutely NOT let that go.



lilith23 said:


> If you ever have some STD that makes you feel temporarily uncomfortable or even painful, specially when you get aroused (not to mention again, highly aroused while not able to finish off since touching your stuff can make the disease worse), you might not find it fun if your partner still asks you "what about my needs?" instead of waiting for you to get better first.


That's true. But that's not the issue in this thread. I'm not arguing that Jerry's wife should have sex with Jerry while she's dealing with a UTI. I'm saying that Jerry's wife should have sex with Jerry *within three months of recovering from a UTI*. Big difference.



lilith23 said:


> I think that you're the one with double standards, specially with the sentence I've marked in bold. So it is ok for the husband to have her wife being considerate of his needs before hers, but not for the wife to have his husband being considerate of her needs (which is support and not making things uncomfortable for a while) before his?


I have no double standards. I think that, in the long term, marriage should be mutually beneficial. I also think that one of the best ways to ensure that happens is for both spouses to be willing to tolerate short-term situations where one spouse benefits more than the other. That's what unselfish people do.

Your argument that wives should only fulfill their husband's needs if their husbands can immediately make it good for them, too, is suggesting that wives should be selfish. And that's not a recipe for a good marriage.



lilith23 said:


> So do you actually agree that it's fine to reprieve sex temporarily or not?


Of course. Temporary reprieves for legitimate reasons are fine. Indefinite reprieves for bullsh!t reasons are selfish and unacceptable. Until this thread, I would have thought that point was inarguable.


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## lilith23 (Sep 6, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> Your posts started by suggesting that Jerry forego his needs to focus on satisfying his wife's needs. Yet you have refused to acknowledge that his wife has any responsibility to satisfy Jerry's needs. That's the double standard.


In this case, both needs are incompatible - wife needs OP to cool down while she recovers, OP needs wife to continue providing gratification even if she's having health issue. Which is fairer to be satisfied then? IMO, whether man or woman, the need of recovering from feeling unwell is more important than the need of getting physical pleasure. I certainly find it unfair if my partner is not feeling well yet I still want my need of pleasure to be satisfied.

To say "double standards" is silly for this kind of situations, specially if we are talking about temporary situations.



PHTlump said:


> Exactly the point. If your husband had a bad time at work and didn't want to listen to your problems for a night, or a week, then you should give him space. If your husband had a bad time at work, came home and announced that planned to ignore your needs indefinitely, then you should absolutely NOT let that go.
> 
> That's true. But that's not the issue in this thread. I'm not arguing that Jerry's wife should have sex with Jerry while she's dealing with a UTI. I'm saying that Jerry's wife should have sex with Jerry *within three months of recovering from a UTI*. Big difference.


So I guess that we actually agree with each other in some way. The OP's issue - long term not having sex - is much more than just the period wife recovers from UTI. My previous comments were based on what the first post of this thread said, but if the issue is much bigger, then it's not even about OP wanting sexual alternatives while wife recovers, so that there's no point in arguing about OP is putting his needs before wife's or not - but rather how OP can't trust and is disrespected and not loved by his wife (which is what's causing long term celibacy and not temporary UTI).



PHTlump said:


> I have no double standards. I think that, in the long term, marriage should be mutually beneficial. I also think that one of the best ways to ensure that happens is for both spouses to be willing to tolerate short-term situations where one spouse benefits more than the other. That's what unselfish people do.
> 
> Your argument that wives should only fulfill their husband's needs if their husbands can immediately make it good for them, too, is suggesting that wives should be selfish. And that's not a recipe for a good marriage.


So is asking for your partner to withhold his/her physical needs while you recover from health issues that causes discomfort a selfish thing to do? I can't see how difficult it is to understand which is more selfish, if demanding for cool down so that you can recover from health issue or demanding to be pleased even thought partner is not feeling well is more selfish.

There were times when my own husband suffered from recurring STD and have his stuff irritated for a while, that the sensations gets worse if he gets excited. He asked me to not do anything for a while 'till it gets better and I accepted, even if I have needs. Why? Coz I wouldn't be happy to "torture" him while I get my own satisfaction. And is it selfish of him to not satisfy me temporarily, while he recovers? That idea never ever crossed in my mind.

And aside of this, I also find it hard to understand how can someone enjoy service sex that is given by request. Not me nor my husband ever enjoyed that, and were happy to have waited for the partner to recover.



PHTlump said:


> Of course. Temporary reprieves for legitimate reasons are fine. Indefinite reprieves for bullsh!t reasons are selfish and unacceptable. Until this thread, I would have thought that point was inarguable.


Indefinite reprieves sounds like much more serious problems than only reprieving temporarily due to health issues, I guess that we can agree on that right? And for that, it's not even about who's being selfish, is about lack of trust, love and respect, and even suspicions of infidelity...


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

lilith23 said:


> There were times when my own husband suffered from recurring STD and have his stuff irritated for a while, that the sensations gets worse if he gets excited. He asked me to not do anything for a while 'till it gets better and I accepted, even if I have needs. Why? Coz I wouldn't be happy to "torture" him while I get my own satisfaction. And is it selfish of him to not satisfy me temporarily, while he recovers? That idea never ever crossed in my mind.


Did you husband exhaust the treatment options available to him? Because if he did, then situations are in no way comparable. In yours, there is nothing more that can done. In the OPs, there might have been, yet the wife refused to try to fix things for three months (something you conveniently fail to address). That is an enormous difference.



> And aside of this, I also find it hard to understand how can someone enjoy service sex that is given by request. Not me nor my husband ever enjoyed that, and were happy to have waited for the partner to recover.


Your very definition judges it. That he might request that his wife help him out does not make it a bad thing. It can be a demonstration of love to help your spouse even when you don't get anything from it. My wife has asked and I have helped her set up for her book club at my house. I get nothing out of it, because I take the kids downstairs while she and her friends drink wine and "discuss the book". Yet I do it because I love her and want to help.


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

[email protected] and @PHT, and good last post by Tall Av guy.

love the posts by both of you. Let me guess, one is a woman's point of view, the other is a man's point of view.

I will need about 30 minutes to write about our talk last night. 

The last few post by you two comes down to this.

Question 1: Would you be willing to please your partner if it meant only pleasing her?
Jerry: Of course i would, i like seeing my wife in pleasure. That's why we are married and in love, to pleasure my spouse.

Wife: No, he is being selfish wanting to just experience an orgasm when i can't. Just because we are married does not mean i have to give him sex.

Not what actually happened but you get where my wife's view on this dilemma and my view differ tremendously...And nothing i can do or say, other than divorce, to change her mind.


Not headed there quite yet, but i had a good talk with her. Aired my opinion, like an Alpha male should.


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## lilith23 (Sep 6, 2012)

jerry123 said:


> Question 1: Would you be willing to please your partner if it meant only pleasing her?
> Jerry: Of course i would, i like seeing my wife in pleasure. That's why we are married and in love, to pleasure my spouse.
> 
> Wife: No, he is being selfish wanting to just experience an orgasm when i can't. Just because we are married does not mean i have to give him sex.


No jerry123, it's not about willing to please your partner even if you don't get satisfaction, it's about not insisting in getting your own satisfaction when your partner asked for a cool down so that she can recover.

But then if you have realized, what we argued is not exactly about your case anymore, as your case is much more than wife asking for cool down when recovering from UTI but husband still wanting satisfaction.


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## lilith23 (Sep 6, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Your very definition judges it. That he might request that his wife help him out does not make it a bad thing. It can be a demonstration of love to help your spouse even when you don't get anything from it. My wife has asked and I have helped her set up for her book club at my house. I get nothing out of it, because I take the kids downstairs while she and her friends drink wine and "discuss the book". Yet I do it because I love her and want to help.


It's not a bad thing to ask for help, but it's not a nice thing to do that after your partner asked for cool down.

Maybe it's just me and my husband, but we were never really into sex as favors done for the sake of one while the other is not really interested in it. Doing favors out of love is nice, but sex is something that is done when both are really into it and not half interested or even not really into it. It's not really comparable to laundry, fixing computers, and so on.

But even worse is if the favor is required when the other is not feeling well. Maybe if more people had suffered from UTI or other STD's uncomfortable sensations, they might understand why some people needs to cool down.


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## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

All I know is that if something were temporarily wrong with me, as to where I couldn't have and enjoy sex while my wife was requesting that she still receive some form of sexual pleasure, I'd be there for her without hesitation. I would be happy to pleasure her, no doubt about it.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

lilith23 said:


> No jerry123, it's not about willing to please your partner even if you don't get satisfaction, it's about not insisting in getting your own satisfaction when your partner asked for a cool down so that she can recover.
> 
> But then if you have realized, what we argued is not exactly about your case anymore, as your case is much more than wife asking for cool down when recovering from UTI but husband still wanting satisfaction.


If you want to be taken seriously, then you need to be factually correct. "partner asked for a cool down so that she can recover" should read, 'partner asked for a 3 month cool down so that she can recover from a one week illness". I mean really, the big dilemma can be solved with a Z pack and 3 days, but somehow it gives her an excuse for 1/4 of an entire year. It's obviously nothing to do with a UTI, it's about not having sex period.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

lilith23 said:


> It's not a bad thing to ask for help, but it's not a nice thing to do that after your partner asked for cool down.


That is expected to last for three months. That isn't a cool down, that is a winter.



> Maybe it's just me and my husband, but we were never really into sex as favors done for the sake of one while the other is not really interested in it. Doing favors out of love is nice, but sex is something that is done when both are really into it and not half interested or even not really into it. It's not really comparable to laundry, fixing computers, and so on.


So it is wrong that this expereince does not apply to all? Is it wrong that my wife gives me sex even when she knows she isn't all into it?

As far as sex being special, that too often seems convenient. It is special and precious and should only be engaged in when everything is right, but all the other things that she likes should be done at all times whenever. 



> But even worse is if the favor is required when the other is not feeling well. Maybe if more people had suffered from UTI or other STD's uncomfortable sensations, they might understand why some people needs to cool down.


You keep falling back to that while ignoring that she is using UT's as an excuse. No one is saying that a cool down for some days or a week is unreasonable. But calling a cool down for months, and not taking any steps to actually address the problem (like, say, setting up a doctor's appointment) is a whole different ball game. 

Since you keep ignoring this point, I have to ask - do you think the cool down suggested by the wife in this scenario is reasonable? That is, is it reasonable for his wife to declare no sex due to UTIs for an undetermined amount of time while she also does not work to figure out the problem?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

> What do you want to do? Forget all the other crap, her feelings, her inconvenience, all of it. Do you want to get a job, or do you like being at home and running it?


Jerry - you did not answer this before, so I want to ask it again. What do *you* want to do? The only correct answer is an honest one.


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## lilith23 (Sep 6, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> If you want to be taken seriously, then you need to be factually correct. "partner asked for a cool down so that she can recover" should read, 'partner asked for a 3 month cool down so that she can recover from a one week illness". I mean really, the big dilemma can be solved with a Z pack and 3 days, but somehow it gives her an excuse for 1/4 of an entire year. It's obviously nothing to do with a UTI, it's about not having sex period.


Do you know that UTI can appear over and over again, that in some cases, it requires more than antibiotics to completely cure it? Take the meds for 3 days and get better again, and then have sex and UTI can reappear again (and it's not funny when those horrible sensations kicks in for at least a few hours). And whether she went right to the doctor or not, it can take some time, maybe even a few weeks before finishing the analysis from the doc. This and when a person is busy with work, it's not easy to take time to go to a doctor.

But it's fine if I'm not taken seriously here. After all, I'm not interested in arguing with people who gets so desperate about their own needs being met when the partner is having health issues and wished for some time to recover. And honestly 2~3 months is not that much, when the partner has health issues. But I guess that it is something for some to despair about, since they have been having major relationships anyways.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

lilith23 said:


> In this case, both needs are incompatible - wife needs OP to cool down while she recovers, OP needs wife to continue providing gratification even if she's having health issue.


A UTI doesn't make the needs incompatible. A wife with a UTI is perfectly capable of spending a few minutes giving her husband manual satisfaction, which will not affect her illness in the slightest. Of course, she won't get any sexual pleasure from it. The only pleasure she will receive is the satisfaction of making her husband feel good. And that assumes she isn't so selfish that she doesn't care about his needs.



lilith23 said:


> Which is fairer to be satisfied then?


Obviously, the wife's preference to avoid sex trumps the husband's need for sex.



lilith23 said:


> To say "double standards" is silly for this kind of situations, specially if we are talking about temporary situations.


As I, and others have pointed out, it's not a temporary situation. It's just a wife's feeble excuse to avoid sex.



lilith23 said:


> My previous comments were based on what the first post of this thread said, ...


The original post in this thread laid out the timeline. The wife became symptomatic with UTIs in October, went to the doctor some time after, and requested celibacy until the end of the year. My first thought upon reading the timeline in the first post was that the wife was being unreasonable in order to avoid sex. And that's before I remembered Jerry's back story.



lilith23 said:


> So is asking for your partner to withhold his/her physical needs while you recover from health issues that causes discomfort a selfish thing to do? I can't see how difficult it is to understand which is more selfish, if demanding for cool down so that you can recover from health issue or demanding to be pleased even thought partner is not feeling well is more selfish.


Again, it's not unselfish for a temporary reprieve. My wife suffers from occasional migraines. When she is suffering from a migraine, I wouldn't ask for sex. But, if I did, and she refused, I wouldn't view her actions as selfish. However, if she used her migraine as a lame excuse to avoid sex indefinitely, she would absolutely be selfish. And I would not accept such a selfish attitude.



lilith23 said:


> There were times when my own husband suffered from recurring STD and have his stuff irritated for a while, that the sensations gets worse if he gets excited. He asked me to not do anything for a while 'till it gets better and I accepted, even if I have needs. Why? Coz I wouldn't be happy to "torture" him while I get my own satisfaction. And is it selfish of him to not satisfy me temporarily, while he recovers? That idea never ever crossed in my mind.


What if your husband's condition wasn't an occasional problem? What if it lasted months or years? Would you live in celibacy indefinitely so as not to have pleasure when your husband couldn't have the same experience?

What if you became paralyzed? You no longer had feeling below your waist. Sex, for you, will never again be physically pleasurable. Would you announce to your husband that you will never again provide any release for him? If you did, I would consider it selfish on your part.



lilith23 said:


> And aside of this, I also find it hard to understand how can someone enjoy service sex that is given by request. Not me nor my husband ever enjoyed that, and were happy to have waited for the partner to recover.


I have enjoyed it. It's similar to enjoying my wife's cooking. Sometimes, my wife cooks and it's great. She works hard and creates a great tasting meal. She enjoys it and I enjoy it. Sometimes, she works hard and creates something that just isn't very good. But I still enjoy it. She worked hard for my benefit. I appreciate that.

Sex is best when my wife and I are both getting pleasure from it. But sometimes, my wife isn't really in the mood. And in those cases, she gives me my release without taking physical pleasure in it. And I still enjoy it. She's providing me with an act of loving service.

What would very much hamper my enjoyment in sex is, if I asked her for release and she refused, stating that she has no interest in my pleasure beyond how it affects her own. That kind of selfish attitude is a big turn off.


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## lilith23 (Sep 6, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> So it is wrong that this expereince does not apply to all? Is it wrong that my wife gives me sex even when she knows she isn't all into it?
> 
> As far as sex being special, that too often seems convenient. It is special and precious and should only be engaged in when everything is right, but all the other things that she likes should be done at all times whenever.


Some people prefer sex stuffs done when both are into it (no it doesn't need to be all romantic and perfect, just both into it), some people are fine even if the other person isn't really into it. It's a matter of preference.



Tall Average Guy said:


> You keep falling back to that while ignoring that she is using UT's as an excuse. No one is saying that a cool down for some days or a week is unreasonable. But calling a cool down for months, and not taking any steps to actually address the problem (like, say, setting up a doctor's appointment) is a whole different ball game.
> 
> Since you keep ignoring this point, I have to ask - do you think the cool down suggested by the wife in this scenario is reasonable? That is, is it reasonable for his wife to declare no sex due to UTIs for an undetermined amount of time while she also does not work to figure out the problem?


Yes, I was not aware that it is more than 2~3months of cool down but rather indefinite celibacy. That is why I've said that my earlier comments were more about husband asking for his needs to be met even thought wife wanted to pause it, and that I realized later that it's much bigger problem.

So she is using UTI as excuse. She is not respecting nor is interested in her husband, she might even have cheated on him and feeling no regrets. She is not attracted by him. In this scenario, by worrying about not having sex forever, why not worrying about the state of the relationship?


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## lilith23 (Sep 6, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> A UTI doesn't make the needs incompatible. A wife with a UTI is perfectly capable of spending a few minutes giving her husband manual satisfaction, which will not affect her illness in the slightest. Of course, she won't get any sexual pleasure from it. The only pleasure she will receive is the satisfaction of making her husband feel good. And that assumes she isn't so selfish that she doesn't care about his needs.
> 
> Obviously, the wife's preference to avoid sex trumps the husband's need for sex.


So it's ok for the wife to build up the arousal but not able to finish off, as long as the husband can. So it's fine for a husband to see things like "hey baby you might not have much enjoyment, but it's fine as long as I can finish off".
Also, UTI can be uncomfortable sometimes, it can take hours to longer for the sensations to stop, and it can also reoccur.

Obviously, the husband's need for sex trumps the wife's need to recovery.

The problem is not about not caring for the husband's needs. Many wives still tries to satisfy their husbands when they cannot have sex due to some conditions. But it is a turn off to know that you expressively said that you wanted cool down, but all you hear from the partner is "what about my own needs?", instead of "ok I understand". As another female member said, her ex did not ask her "what about me?" when she was not in condition to have sex, but she happily gave him satisfaction.




PHTlump said:


> As I, and others have pointed out, it's not a temporary situation. It's just a wife's feeble excuse to avoid sex.
> 
> The original post in this thread laid out the timeline. The wife became symptomatic with UTIs in October, went to the doctor some time after, and requested celibacy until the end of the year. My first thought upon reading the timeline in the first post was that the wife was being unreasonable in order to avoid sex. And that's before I remembered Jerry's back story.
> 
> Again, it's not unselfish for a temporary reprieve. My wife suffers from occasional migraines. When she is suffering from a migraine, I wouldn't ask for sex. But, if I did, and she refused, I wouldn't view her actions as selfish. However, if she used her migraine as a lame excuse to avoid sex indefinitely, she would absolutely be selfish. And I would not accept such a selfish attitude.


I'm trying to make it clear already that I already have realized that OP's case is not temporary as I've thought it was. What I was disagreeing is the situation in which one partner temporarily needs to recover from some health issue while the other asks "what about me?", and I think that you have agreed on that already. But I think that we keep debating coz we are not agreeing in some details.

But about the OP, honestly, instead of worrying about 3 months of not getting anything, shouldn't the OP worry about the state of his relationship? Yes, it can as well turn into an indefinite celibacy. That happens as he's not getting respect and love and attraction from his wife. Shouldn't he wonder about those instead of not having sex?



PHTlump said:


> What if your husband's condition wasn't an occasional problem? What if it lasted months or years? Would you live in celibacy indefinitely so as not to have pleasure when your husband couldn't have the same experience?
> 
> What if you became paralyzed? You no longer had feeling below your waist. Sex, for you, will never again be physically pleasurable. Would you announce to your husband that you will never again provide any release for him? If you did, I would consider it selfish on your part.


Of course then we'd need to figure it out other ways. But as I've said already, I came to realize that OP's situation is not temporary, and that while in this example, love and respect is still there, in OP's case, the celibacy is due to lack of love and respect. Without that, he won't even get simple displays of affection.



PHTlump said:


> I have enjoyed it. It's similar to enjoying my wife's cooking. Sometimes, my wife cooks and it's great. She works hard and creates a great tasting meal. She enjoys it and I enjoy it. Sometimes, she works hard and creates something that just isn't very good. But I still enjoy it. She worked hard for my benefit. I appreciate that.
> 
> Sex is best when my wife and I are both getting pleasure from it. But sometimes, my wife isn't really in the mood. And in those cases, she gives me my release without taking physical pleasure in it. And I still enjoy it. She's providing me with an act of loving service.
> 
> What would very much hamper my enjoyment in sex is, if I asked her for release and she refused, stating that she has no interest in my pleasure beyond how it affects her own. That kind of selfish attitude is a big turn off.


What I've been disagreeing about is more about a wife having asked for a cool down and a husband asking "what about me?", which is different from your example, as in this case, wife expressively asked for cooling down. Some wives will happily try to please their husbands so that they will continue being satisfied, but it's a different story when you ask for a pause and get "what about me?" in return. These are 2 very different scenarios.

But do would you think that refusing sex just coz you're not in the mood is selfish, even if the couple has healthy happy sex life? Is your example about you and your partner, or are you talking about refusing sex indefinitely?


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

jesus jerry leave us hanging why dont you?


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

lilith23 said:


> What I've been disagreeing about is more about a wife having asked for a cool down and a husband asking "what about me?", which is different from your example, as in this case, wife expressively asked for cooling down. Some wives will happily try to please their husbands so that they will continue being satisfied, but it's a different story when you ask for a pause and get "what about me?" in return. These are 2 very different scenarios.


Where our disagreement comes is on whether the wife's request for a reprieve is reasonable. If the wife has a UTI and asks for a week off from sex, her request is reasonable and the husband should back off. If the wife has a UTI and asks for three months off from sex, her request is unreasonable and the husband should stand up for himself.



lilith23 said:


> But do would you think that refusing sex just coz you're not in the mood is selfish, even if the couple has healthy happy sex life? Is your example about you and your partner, or are you talking about refusing sex indefinitely?


I think it is also in context. I think refusing sex for a prolonged period is selfish, almost regardless of circumstances. I also think that getting into a situation where one spouse denies the other regularly, perhaps even a majority of the time, is a problem. Some people on this forum have a 10% success rate of initiating, or even lower. However, if you have a good sex life and your husband wants sex 4x a week and you want 3x a week, then there's no real issue there.


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> jesus jerry leave us hanging why dont you?


LMAO, I'm at CVS. Been doing Christmas stuff all morning. Can't type and drive. Will update this afternoon. 

Oh and Catherine....I actually do believe I'm a great catch. I am loyal, trustworthy, I'm 44 but look and feel 30. I am a SAHD but I've picked a career to start school in 2013. Since doing the MAP, I've gotten propositioned by 1 friend and 3 strangers (all women). They all know I am a SAHD. But I've stayed 100% loyal to my wife...

BTW, my wife's UTI issue at the "cool down" talk was 100% gone. No pain. The meds worked. So it's not like I was asking for other things while she was kneeling over in pain. Plus I just picked up a refill scrip for any future UTI's.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ina (Dec 3, 2012)

I'm new to this thread. I've read most of the comments but admit i have limited background information. Initially, i was pretty offended. I thought, wow, the things that occur when a wife is not in the mood! Everything from she must have an STD from having an affair, to her being manipulative and selfish by not caring about his needs. What struck me most is that there was little comment on her needs. As i continued to read, I realized that there was some questionable behavior on her part and I understood a bit more about Jerry's position and approach. So i hope you can read my point of view and take whatever you find helpful, it's not meant to judge (and it's pretty long). I think the purpose of TAM is not necessarily to validate our feelings and approach but to gain a different perspective in the hopes that we can improve what we can control; ourselves. So here is where I stand:

I do not think the level of paranoia and distrust evident is healthy. I agreed with one post that stated if you are going to be that miserable, what is the point. It's been months and nothing has been found, perhaps its best that all that energy be directed elsewhere?

I will admit to being fairly green to the whole 180 and MAP, but it seems to be that there are a few main purposes to these approaches. 1) People need to redirect their focus to themselves, basically begin to take responsibility for meeting their own needs. 2) People need to focus on how to better themselves for themselves, and thereby reminding their spouse what they fell for in the first place, while at the same time demonstrating a level of independence. 3) there is this shock and awe element of shaking things up so that your partner notices that there is a change and that they need to step up their own role in the marriage.

Like i said, this is just what i have gathered from reading several threads on TAM, i hope i have a decent understanding of the approaches. Now here is my take. I don't think the purpose of these approaches is to go so far towards taking care of yourself that you forget your spouse and their needs. I don't think these approaches are meant to create spouses that become narcissistic, feeling as if they are entitled to certain things in a marriage just because. I don't think that becoming an "alpha" means you can never turn it off and be a sensitive spouse or a "nice guy". I think it means you know when to turn Mr. Alpha on. You know shock and awe wears out if you are constantly on the offensive. It's like being in a diet. You do something to shock your system, but if you continue to do it, eventually you hit a plateau. In the armed forces shock and awe serves its purposes, but if you don't stop firing, eventually you are just a crazy person with no regard for human life. I think one danger of going down these roads is that you go to far down. In Jerry's case, it looks like is wife can also be an "alpha". At some point pride has got to give way and people have to start communicating. A marriage is not a game of who is going to win, if both partners address it this way, you both will lose. 

This is the quote from Jerry that got my inner female screaming: "Listen, I am sensitive to her needs, I am in shape, I am a loyal husband and father. If she can't see that and wants to lose me then I am fine with that. There are millions of women who would kill to have a guy like me." 

I can only give you my point of view, but if that summed up how my husband felt and approached me, we would have some serious issues that could NOT be resolved in the bedroom. I just hear "I'm am so great and if she doesn't get your $hit together, there will be a line of women ready to service my fine a$$. Seriously NOT A TURN ON! Not saying that is what you meant Jerry, this is just what i would hear. 

And as for meeting her needs, do you even know what they are? Is you being in shape meeting her needs? You being a good father? Is that about her or about you? The stuff you do around the house? Isn't that your share just like hers is to work? I'm not minimizing what you do. I make more $$ than my husband, and also have to do the domestic side of things, so i admire you greatly, but I'm not your wife, is this a top "need" for her? I'm not sure how you feel about your wife. I get that you love her, but are you proud of her? Do you admire her? Your actions to "spy" on her (which is not being open and honest . . . usually a need for women) show that you don't trust her, and I'm not sure you can admire someone you do not trust. You sure have some strong animosity for her actions, haven't heard much about the qualities your wife possesses that make you want to stay. 

I hope you can reflect some on where you are at and whether its healthy for everyone involved. I wish you all the best.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Did the docs advise you to also take the scrip? Since it's usually possible that if she was infected, she infected you and you can re-infect her? I think that is standard procedure (you taking a Z-pack or whatever).


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Ina said:


> This is the quote from Jerry that got my inner female screaming: "Listen, I am sensitive to her needs, I am in shape, I am a loyal husband and father. If she can't see that and wants to lose me then I am fine with that. There are millions of women who would kill to have a guy like me."


6 Harsh Truths That Will Make You a Better Person | Cracked.com

This article was posted by CanadianGuy in the men's clubhouse. It kind of sums Jerry up nicely. So Jerry, other than being nice and loyal, what exactly can you do for her that other people can't? Being nice and loyal and taking care of the kids just isn't enough. If I were you, I'd read that article. Twice. With an open mind. It certainly had ME thinking about what I bring to the table.


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Did the docs advise you to also take the scrip? Since it's usually possible that if she was infected, she infected you and you can re-infect her? I think that is standard procedure (you taking a Z-pack or whatever).


Oh no. Not me. It's macroban. (Sp)? For her. Cipro made her get upset stomach. Macroban is what she has been taking for years. Always worked awesome. I doubt I have a UTI. Anything is possible. But I have absolutely no symptoms.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

jerry123 said:


> Oh no. Not me. It's macroban. (Sp)? For her. Cipro made her get upset stomach. Macroban is what she has been taking for years. Always worked awesome. I doubt I have a UTI. Anything is possible. But I have absolutely no symptoms.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But if she keeps getting them after they're are cured, isn't it at least possible that she's getting reinfected from you? What could it hurt, you taking a course of antibiotics as a precaution? From one of your posts it seemed like she was linking in her mind that she gets a UTI after having sex with you, which may be why she doesn't want to do it. Isn't it worth it to take the meds to try to minimize those fears?


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## ScaredandUnsure (Nov 17, 2011)

Also diet could play a part in frequent UTI's. And hygiene, if say you're touching her lady bits with unwashed hands, bacteria gets into her urethra and voila, another UTI. Going from anus to vulva can do it. Personal question, how does she wipe after using the bathroom? Does she go front to back or back to front? It surprises me when I find out women wipe back to front, which cause yeast and UTI's. Maybe she needs to keep track of things she does and can figure out what is triggering them.

Good Luck.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> But if she keeps getting them after they're are cured, isn't it at least possible that she's getting reinfected from you? What could it hurt, you taking a course of antibiotics as a precaution? From one of your posts it seemed like she was linking in her mind that she gets a UTI after having sex with you, which may be why she doesn't want to do it. Isn't it worth it to take the meds to try to minimize those fears?


If she has been taking the same antibiotic for years she can also become immune to it. I like workingonme's thinking but get the std test asap and let the doc make that call.


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

Ok, we talked for two hours. Won't get into every word. 

Yeah, basically she was upset at my "other things" comment. Fine...told her I her i understand UTI problem and we need to get it fixed. 

Made it known that I enjoy sex with her more than ever because of my weight loss and Overall great health. My drive is strong. Could have sex 3-4 x a week. I think back in the past when I weighed 210 lbs, ate bad, no exercise. I had no drive, actually some times I could not get erection during sex with her. Not the case now...

We discussed different ways to minimize a UTI. Showers, hand washing, pee before sex, after sex and take 2 Med pills. Always worked before. To clarify, she does not get a UTI every single time after sex. This last one she said was different. Took Macroban and did not seem to go away. Got her Cipro and its gone. 

Urologist next week, she's been to one years ago and they did all test. Dye in bladder, ultrasound. Nothing wrong. She does not want to go through that again. She said dye in bladder was painful. Never had a kidney infection in her life. 

She says she likes how I look now but was still into me when I was heavy. (Yeah, and sex was once a month. Twice if I were lucky.) No MAPing back then. No Alpha up back then. Was more BETA in past. 

Hey, her drive may be low?? Hmmm, I don't think that is the case. But I'm sure UTI's play a big role in drive. 

Well, told her I enjoy the things she does for me. We role play, she has toys we use, she gives good bjs. I make sure she is pleasured everytime. When we do have sex, we are satisfied. 

I say I'm open minded. Would try all sorts of new things. She starts to perk up a bit. She says well maybe we should see if you open to new things. No specifics on what that means. I could only imagine. 

Was sort of just listening to her talk. Trying to pick up things. 

We both were calm and communicated better than we had in a while. Are issues fixed? No... Can they be...I think so.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

ScaredandUnsure said:


> Also diet could play a part in frequent UTI's. And hygiene, if say you're touching her lady bits with unwashed hands, bacteria gets into her urethra and voila, another UTI. Going from anus to vulva can do it. Personal question, how does she wipe after using the bathroom? Does she go front to back or back to front? It surprises me when I find out women wipe back to front, which cause yeast and UTI's. Maybe she needs to keep track of things she does and can figure out what is triggering them.
> 
> Good Luck.


In the past we make sure both of us are showered. My nails are cut short. No dirt in nails. Wash hands everytime. 

Wiping procedure has come up. She wipes safe way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> But if she keeps getting them after they're are cured, isn't it at least possible that she's getting reinfected from you? What could it hurt, you taking a course of antibiotics as a precaution? From one of your posts it seemed like she was linking in her mind that she gets a UTI after having sex with you, which may be why she doesn't want to do it. Isn't it worth it to take the meds to try to minimize those fears?


Sure, I will take the antibiotics. Can't hurt. She has 35 pills. Could be the problem that I have a UTI. But what I've learned is I would most likely know if I had a UTI.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

lilith23 said:


> But it's fine if I'm not taken seriously here. After all, I'm not interested in arguing with people who gets so desperate about their own needs being met when the partner is having health issues and wished for some time to recover. And honestly 2~3 months is not that much, when the partner has health issues. But I guess that it is something for some to despair about, since they have been having major relationships anyways.


It is not merely the 2-3 months for the issue. It is that the issue came about, and she refused to seek helpf for 2-3 months. The 2-3 month delay was not due to her condition, but due to her refusal to do anything about it.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

lilith23 said:


> Some people prefer sex stuffs done when both are into it (no it doesn't need to be all romantic and perfect, just both into it), some people are fine even if the other person isn't really into it. It's a matter of preference.


And he is a bad guy for being different. I will have to disagree.





> Yes, I was not aware that it is more than 2~3months of cool down but rather indefinite celibacy. That is why I've said that my earlier comments were more about husband asking for his needs to be met even thought wife wanted to pause it, and that I realized later that it's much bigger problem.
> 
> So she is using UTI as excuse. She is not respecting nor is interested in her husband, she might even have cheated on him and feeling no regrets. She is not attracted by him. In this scenario, by worrying about not having sex forever, why not worrying about the state of the relationship?


And yet you continue to defend her "cooling off" and that men just don't understand and are not reasonable. 

I think it is clear he is worried about the relationship.


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> It is not merely the 2-3 months for the issue. It is that the issue came about, and she refused to seek helpf for 2-3 months. The 2-3 month delay was not due to her condition, but due to her refusal to do anything about it.


She did not actually refuse to seek help. I made appt for her at OBGYN. She went. Dr said make urologist appt, she goes dec 24. I'm sure it's just a consultation. He won't do test at dec 24th appt. 

I will look back at my posts and see if I wrote 2-3 month delay. Don't think I did though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

jerry123 said:


> She did not actually refuse to seek help. I made appt for her at OBGYN. She went. Dr said make urologist appt, she goes dec 24. I'm sure it's just a consultation. He won't do test at dec 24th appt.
> 
> I will look back at my posts and see if I wrote 2-3 month delay. Don't think I did though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why did she not make the appointment? 

My understanding was that she did not make the steps to make an appointment thus delaying things the 2-3 months. Is that understanding incorrect?


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

Oh, I made appt since she had an op review at work and meetings with boss that day. Drs office has crazy hours. Only open 3 days a week. I had the time to call. At first we thought urologist would take till feb to get in. She got in dec 24th.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

jerry123 said:


> She did not actually refuse to seek help. I made appt for her at OBGYN. She went. Dr said make urologist appt, she goes dec 24. I'm sure it's just a consultation. He won't do test at dec 24th appt.
> 
> I will look back at my posts and see if I wrote 2-3 month delay. Don't think I did though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You wrote that her symptoms appeared in October, which is when your frequency declined. The 2-3 month delay is going from October to 12/24.


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> You wrote that her symptoms appeared in October, which is when your frequency declined. The 2-3 month delay is going from October to 12/24.


Yes, symptoms appeared in oct. we still had sex but I believe it went from 2x a week in late summer/sept, to oct-nov 1x a week. To late nov 1 x every 2 weeks to dec 1x only this month. UTI's were controlled somewhat sept-oct but late nov-dec is when she got the UTI that would not go away.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

jerry123 said:


> Yes, symptoms appeared in oct. we still had sex but I believe it went from 2x a week in late summer/sept, to oct-nov 1x a week. To late nov 1 x every 2 weeks to dec 1x only this month. UTI's were controlled somewhat sept-oct but late nov-dec is when she got the UTI that would not go away.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So is it accurate to say she is making an effort to get this taken care of, or is she holding off?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Jerry - I hate to keep bringing it up, but do you like what you are doing, or do you want to get a job outside the home?


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> So is it accurate to say she is making an effort to get this taken care of, or is she holding off?


Well, not holding off. She is going to appt's. never said she does NOT want a resolution. She knows I want this fixed. But she may think I want it fixed just to have sex. It's not just to have sex, it's so she does not have to worry about getting a UTI after sex. That's seems like a big reason for the cool down talk.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Jerry - I hate to keep bringing it up, but do you like what you are doing, or do you want to get a job outside the home?


No problem bringing it up. I just had so much reading and writing to do on this thread that it skipped my mind to respond. 

I like being here for my kids, they are safe, fed, bathed, dressed, homework done. It's not an easy job. I love being a SAHD. If you never have done it you can't imagine the satisfaction of doing it. As for society making me out to be a BETA guy for it. Probably did...I'm not anymore...I was. It crept up on me after 6-7 years. I changed in those years. It does that to you. As for job, my profession was strictly 7-4:30. Manufacturing...that's dead where I am. I can't make my own hours. 

Going to start a new career...need schooling though. I'm not doing this for more affection from wife. I'm doing it for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

jerry123 said:


> No problem bringing it up. I just had so much reading and writing to do on this thread that it skipped my mind to respond.
> 
> I like being here for my kids, they are safe, fed, bathed, dressed, homework done. It's not an easy job. I love being a SAHD. If you never have done it you can't imagine the satisfaction of doing it. As for society making me out to be a BETA guy for it. Probably did...I'm not anymore...I was. It crept up on me after 6-7 years. I changed in those years. It does that to you. As for job, my profession was strictly 7-4:30. Manufacturing...that's dead where I am. I can't make my own hours.
> 
> ...


I would not suggest it any other way. It needs to be for you. If that is what you want to do, and will make you happy, then go for it.

I am going through the other side of it with my wife. As my kids are older, we realize that her being a ful-time SAHM is no longer necessary. She wants to do something, and we are working together to see what works for her. I hope you and your wife can figure out something together.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

jerry123 said:


> Well, not holding off. She is going to appt's. never said she does NOT want a resolution. She knows I want this fixed. But she may think I want it fixed just to have sex. It's not just to have sex, it's so she does not have to worry about getting a UTI after sex. That's seems like a big reason for the cool down talk.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It seems to me that her taking active steps to fix this puts this in a better situation that I thought. I hope that means better things in the future.


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I would not suggest it any other way. It needs to be for you. If that is what you want to do, and will make you happy, then go for it.
> 
> I am going through the other side of it with my wife. As my kids are older, we realize that her being a ful-time SAHM is no longer necessary. She wants to do something, and we are working together to see what works for her. I hope you and your wife can figure out something together.



Have you ever asked your wife how she would feel if you were a SAHD? I assume she does not know about TAM?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mario Kempes (Jun 12, 2010)

Jerry, is there any way she might know that you're posting here?


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

Mario Kempes said:


> Jerry, is there any way she might know that you're posting here?


Absolutely not...it's only accessed through my phone. History is deleted everyday. She is not tech savy. Rarely looks at my phone. 

My name is obviously not Jerry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Hopefully things work out for the long haul.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lilith23 (Sep 6, 2012)

So we were actually arguing about the wrong facts, but it's good to hear that the situation is actually better than it seemed. So sex life has always been fine, but UTI is the reason that is diminishing the frequency of sex?

Hmm not sure if it helps in your case, but have you tried to use lubrification? Frictions during sex can open micro wounds sometimes (if there's not enough lub), that it can cause UTI reappearing again.


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

lilith23 said:


> So we were actually arguing about the wrong facts, but it's good to hear that the situation is actually better than it seemed. So sex life has always been fine, but UTI is the reason that is diminishing the frequency of sex?
> 
> Hmm not sure if it helps in your case, but have you tried to use lubrification? Frictions during sex can open micro wounds sometimes (if there's not enough lub), that it can cause UTI reappearing again.


No lubs ever. Don't believe we have ever needed them. 

I started taking her antibiotics...probably only do 5-6 pills.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

jerry123 said:


> LMAO, I'm at CVS. Been doing Christmas stuff all morning. Can't type and drive. Will update this afternoon.
> 
> Oh and Catherine....I actually do believe I'm a great catch. I am loyal, trustworthy, I'm 44 but look and feel 30. I am a SAHD but I've picked a career to start school in 2013. Since doing the MAP, I've gotten propositioned by 1 friend and 3 strangers (all women). They all know I am a SAHD. But I've stayed 100% loyal to my wife...
> 
> ...


Jerry you don't need to tell me. I recognize it from your posts. I wanted to make sure that you knew. Sometimes marital problems distort your view of yourself. Clearly you do not have that problem. 

This is my opinion. I said it before, don't ever get boxed in or let your partner think that you have no options. Leave- taking is serious especially with kids. 

But if you have sincerely exhausted all avenues to reconcile problems and the problems are serious, then you may have to exercise your option. I think only serious problems. 

It is as simple as always keeping yourself in shape, weight appropriate, attractively dressed, etc throughout the marriage. That implies that you have not given up the possibility of attracting someone new. You just don't act on it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Oh you should both take probiotics. They are lactobacillus tabs. Find them in health food stores under refrigeration. These bacteria are essential to prevent growth of virulent bacteria in the gut and genital track. They establish a low pH environment. It is better than yogurt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Did you get a concrete plan to work on things together? Sounds like you have a definite action plan for the UTI. The sex stuff sounds nebulous. 

Why did you leave that up in the air? Isn't that implying that you don't think it is important??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> Did you get a concrete plan to work on things together? Sounds like you have a definite action plan for the UTI. The sex stuff sounds nebulous.
> 
> Why did you leave that up in the air? Isn't that implying that you don't think it is important??
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



One thing I suggested and read on UTI prevention web site is to use condoms. She said she would try it. I prefer not to use them. But it's a process of elimination right now. 

To get her to talk about it and sex is a small victory for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Jerry - don't take her pills unless you have an infection and a Dr. prescribes them for you. Antibiotics kill the good bacteria too. Also if you don't take them for the full period of time that the Dr. says to, your body can develop a resistance to them. Does your wife take them exactly like she has been directed and for the length of time. 

Also very importaant is what Catherine said - She should take probiotics found in the refrigerator section of a health store. Ask the clerk to show you the ones for vaginal health. As I said before antibiotics kill the good bacteria too.

Also you should note - constant UTI's can be a sign of hormonal imbalances. is she on hormonal birth control? She may want to get her hormones checked. Not all Ob's will do this - you need to find one who will check the individual levels of all her hormones. Look for a doctor who does bio-identical hormone therapy.

But for the record, while the UTI's may be the problem of lately - I don't think it is the real problem in your relationship. If I were you - I would seek help from a sex theraapist - who btw will also do MC as part of the therepy. Seems like you both may have several issues that need professional help to address.

Some of my thoughts on why women won't have sex!
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/22067-reason-wives-wont-have-sex.html


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

mary35 said:


> Jerry - don't take her pills unless you have an infection and a Dr. prescribes them for you. Antibiotics kill the good bacteria too. Also if you don't take them for the full period of time that the Dr. says to, your body can develop a resistance to them. Does your wife take them exactly like she has been directed and for the length of time.
> 
> Also very importaant is what Catherine said - She should take probiotics found in the refrigerator section of a health store. Ask the clerk to show you the ones for vaginal health. As I said before antibiotics kill the good bacteria too.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the advice...

Her tubes are tied. No BC. She is 37 years old. 

She won't take any supplements. I know her. She thinks the urologist will just change her scrip. Cipro is too strong. 

Macroban is what she has takin for years. And it's not like she gets them everytime. It's a precautionary method on top of everything else. 

As for not wanting to have sex I can understand that she does not want the UTI's. in her mind she thinks that everytime sex happens she will get one. So she associates sex as painful, not the act of sex but afterwards. 

Our talk the other night was good because I finally got her to open up. She keeps everything in. 

I read your link. It's interesting. But whatever is going on in her mind stays there. 

She is willing to fix the UTI problem, but its not high on her list right now. Meaning I'm the one more vocal about it. I don't like seeing her in pain and I want a heathy sex life. Where she looks at it as, she is fine right now and the last 3 weeks there are no UTI signs because we have had no sex. And from what I sense is she figures problem is solved. No, problem is not solved. We are having no sex. We are having nothing...will see what happens this weekend and Christmas Eve at drs. Appt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## donny64 (Apr 21, 2012)

LdyVenus said:


> UTI's are painful. I'm not seeing a lot of sympathy? Do you keep her "primed" with talking, touching, loving gestures, or do you just walk in and lock the door expecting to get humped?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Has she tried peeing immediately after sex? My W used to get them all the damned time! Seemed as though as soon as she'd get to the doc, get antibiotics, and get it to clear, she'd have a week or two of being okay, and she'd get hit with a UTI again. Extremely painful for her because within days it would progress to her kidneys. Ever since I told her to try peeing after sex every time, she has been UTI free, but for maybe one time over the past couple years.

It's a bit of a pain because there's not a lot of happy, post orgasm snuggle time as she's up and running to the bathroom almost immediately, but she has been healthy since. She is now a firm believer and huge supporter of the "post sex pee" thing.


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

Agree with postponing the afterglow cuddle until after the pee. My wife only had one UTI but it was a serious drag. All clear since the new approach.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

I do not understand why you have not gone to a doctor for STD testing. It seems that would lay to rest a lot of questions.

But did I read that YOU are taking HER antibiotics? Bad move.

Get to a Dr. and have the tests done.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Jerry it does not matter if she takes the probiotics. You should take them. A change in your bacterial flora will change hers as well when you have mucus membrane contact. 

I would avoid antibiotics if you have no documented infection. An earlier poster mentioned that AB desturbing the normal flora with all of the good bacteria. Better to take probiotics to recharge the levels of the good bacteria. 

Get a good high bacterial cell count probiotic and take it 2 times a day. Kiss your wife a lot so she gets some of the bacteria from you. Also have lots of sex, it's good for you and her. 

I also think she may have low estrogen that shoud get checked out.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

jerry123 said:


> Have you ever asked your wife how she would feel if you were a SAHD? I assume she does not know about TAM?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry I missed this, but I don't think I have. Over the holidays I will have to ask her that.


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

I took just one pill, but will stop taking them. 

Getting a STD test next year at physical. 

Wife is a bit nicer after our talk. Asked me if I got condoms, I said yes. 

Will see what weekend brings...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ScubaSteve61 (Mar 20, 2012)

jerry123 said:


> I took just one pill, but will stop taking them.
> 
> Getting a STD test next year at physical.
> 
> ...


Good luck!


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

How are things going Jerry?


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