# Help! Is my wife Gay, bi, or normal? I need a Woman's perspective



## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

My wife and I are in our early 40's and we have 3 kids. We've been married for 16+ years and have been struggling in the bedroom for 10-12 years. My wife is just not passionate, affectionate, and has told me on more than one occasion that if she never had sex again in her life, she would be okay with it. Of course hearing this made me uneasy about our relationship. 

We have sex about twice a week and she is always dreading it. Also, during sex, she would only want to do the missionary position. No kissing during sex, no foreplay, just straight to the point with lube and I have to go get ready so she can do it between commercials. I accepted this because I was at least getting something, but I really wanted the passion, *I wanted to be desirable to her.* I'm an attractive man (I think) and in decent shape, maybe 10 lbs overweight, so that is not the issue. I'm very clean and shower 2 times a day, once in the morning before work and again before I go to bed, so that shouldn't be an issue either. When I ask my wife the the problem is. Why there's no foreplay, she says it tickles her boobs when I kiss them, or that she not in the mood for oral, ever really. Then she reminds me that getting it twice a week is better than a lot of her friends and that I should be happy.

Recently, I tried to increase the passion, kissing, hugging more and trying to cuddle. She rejected my advances, saying she's not a kisser. When we have kissed in the past, it was mostly pecks on the lips, no real tongue action. I mean, it wasn't always like that. When we were dating, we kissed passionately and had a lot more sex. This even continued into the first couple years of our marriage, but tapered off after our first child. I finally got fed up and demanded MC, which she agreed to do. 

We have been going for a couple of months now and I have noticed some improvement in the affection, but no real increase in our sexual encounters. Now to my current dilemma.

We got into a fight the other night because I wanted to cudlle with her and she didn't. She said we cuddled enough on the couch earlier and that should have been enough. The next day, I snooped around in her dresser and closet and found several porno's (5). Two of the videos were VHS and obviously old. The other 2 were from July 2009. I'm not upset about the porn. We watch porn together sometimes and I'm sure alone as well. What I found was 4 of the five porno's were girl on girl action or girl on girl orgy's. Recently I had an opportunity to download some porn from a friends server and I downloaded normal guy-girl porn. She said she wanted to download a couple videos and every last one was girl-girl. I asked her if she had a lesbian fantasy which she adamantly denied. 

Should I be worried? 

Women, is it normal for women to watch girl on girl porn?


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

I'd ask her if she prefers girl on girl to guy-girl. Then ask her why she likes the girl on girl.


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## GinnyTonia (Jul 31, 2012)

I watch it, but not exclusively. Even if I did, my SO has no question about me loving any kind of touching, kissing, cuddling, sexing with him. 
Does she have any trauma in her past that prevents her from enjoying physical intimacy?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## honeysuckle rose (Jun 11, 2010)

I think your real issue is that she just isn't really into sex with you. I have to admit that I've become a lot like your wife, in that I don't like being touched at this point in my life. Before I was always ready to go and loved sex. Not sure if this is a phase or if that's just how your wife and I have evolved, as we weren't always cold fish.

It sounds like she's resentful about something. You probably have no clue what it could be. But she's probably angry at you for some reason...(yes, this is how we are).

I can also say that for a while I was into girl on girl action in porn when I would watch (younger). Frankly, women are nicer to look at and probably most women watching porn are envisioning themselves as the woman in the movie doing whatever act. 

Your wife may like looking at women. She may have some lesbian feelings. The only way you can find out is to ask because YOU should not live the rest of your life like this. Even *I* who am so messed up in my own life can recognize this. Don't settle for no affection and feeling lonely.

Good luck.


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## StatusQuo (Jun 4, 2012)

I prefer girl/girl porn. I'm just not into watching some guy banging the life out of another girl. Oh, and there's far less spitting in girl/girl. The spitting grosses me out. For me girl/girl stuff is more "tame", more like acts of foreplay. Since foreplay is what really gets me going, it's more enticing to watch. That said, I wouldn't watch porn by myself, and when I do watch it H is with me and uh... helping me along.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

GinnyTonia said:


> I watch it, but not exclusively. Even if I did, my SO has no question about me loving any kind of touching, kissing, cuddling, sexing with him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree: Same with me. It isn't a question of her sexual persuasion so much as it is a question of whether she likes sex, period.


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## wiigirl (Jun 14, 2012)

CanadianGuy said:


> I'd ask her if she prefers girl on girl to guy-girl. Then ask her why she likes the girl on girl.












Talk with her is the key I think...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

CanadianGuy said:


> I'd ask her if she prefers girl on girl to guy-girl. Then ask her why she likes the girl on girl.


She said she does not fantasize about women at all.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

honeysuckle rose said:


> I think your real issue is that she just isn't really into sex with you. I have to admit that I've become a lot like your wife, in that I don't like being touched at this point in my life. Before I was always ready to go and loved sex. Not sure if this is a phase or if that's just how your wife and I have evolved, as we weren't always cold fish.
> 
> It sounds like she's resentful about something. You probably have no clue what it could be. But she's probably angry at you for some reason...(yes, this is how we are).
> 
> ...


Yeah, I get she does not enjoy sex or we would be doing it all the time. I have never wondered about this until I noticed a few months ago that the only videos she downloaded were girl on girl. When I mentioned it to her, she dismissed it and said she didn't really pay attention to what she was downloading because the kids were in the living room and she had to do it quick. I bought it until I found the other, much older videos, that were the same.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

StatusQuo said:


> I prefer girl/girl porn. I'm just not into watching some guy banging the life out of another girl. Oh, and there's far less spitting in girl/girl. The spitting grosses me out. For me girl/girl stuff is more "tame", more like acts of foreplay. Since foreplay is what really gets me going, it's more enticing to watch. That said, I wouldn't watch porn by myself, and when I do watch it H is with me and uh... helping me along.


Yeah, but one of the videos was all butt hole licking, foot sucking and of course eating out orgy stuff, all women. I can't believe this.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> :iagree: Same with me. It isn't a question of her sexual persuasion so much as it is a question of whether she likes sex, period.


I don't think she gets anything out of it because she makes me get ready and go quickly. I think she just wants it to be over with.


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## StatusQuo (Jun 4, 2012)

lifeisnotsogood said:


> Yeah, but one of the videos was all butt hole licking, foot sucking and of course eating out orgy stuff, all women. I can't believe this.


^^ Okay, that's not so appealing...


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

wiigirl said:


> Talk with her is the key I think...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can't talk to her. She'll know I went through her dresser and closet. That will start a brand new set of issues.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

GinnyTonia said:


> I watch it, but not exclusively. Even if I did, my SO has no question about me loving any kind of touching, kissing, cuddling, sexing with him.
> Does she have any trauma in her past that prevents her from enjoying physical intimacy?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No trauma that I know of. I love the cuddling, and foreplay stuff. She doesn't.


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## StatusQuo (Jun 4, 2012)

lifeisnotsogood said:


> I can't talk to her. She'll know I went through her dresser and closet. That will start a brand new set of issues.


Ummm, why DID you go through her stuff??


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

StatusQuo said:


> ^^ Okay, that's not so appealing...


I've asked what I could do to spice things up. She just says it's not me, it's her and that she is not in the mood or too tired. I work 60+ hours a week and she is a stay-at-home mom, which I appreciate, but I've even tried to make things easier for her, cleaning the house, doing dishes, cooking, etc., but even that didn't work.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

StatusQuo said:


> Ummm, why DID you go through her stuff??


Since she had been rejecting my advances, I wondered if there was a reason, like another man, etc. Didn't think anything until then.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

lifeisnotsogood said:


> Since she had been rejecting my advances, I wondered if there was a reason, like another man, etc. Didn't think anything until then.


Well, TELL her that! Tell her that the way she's acting has you becoming paranoid about what she's up to! So you snooped and this is what you found. You can be contrite for snooping at the same time you stand up for why you did it.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

I told her in counseling that I was scared after she rejected my advances to improve our passion. I was not prepared for that. I figured cuddling would be okay, but apparently it wasn't. But like I said, she has gotten a little better in regards to affection, although nowhere close to where I want to be.


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

lifeisnotsogood said:


> My wife is just not passionate, affectionate, and has told me on more than one occasion that if she never had sex again in her life, she would be okay with it. Of course hearing this made me uneasy about our relationship.
> 
> [snipped]
> 
> ...


Uh, yeah, I'd be uneasy and worried. Not necessarily about the porn, but when combined with the lack of interest, it doesn't sound good.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> Well, TELL her that! Tell her that the way she's acting has you becoming paranoid about what she's up to! So you snooped and this is what you found. You can be contrite for snooping at the same time you stand up for why you did it.


She's the type that will turn it into an ugly thing that I did and that maybe I can't be trusted, etc. That will give her a reason not to have sex for a week. She'll be all over that.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

jaharthur said:


> Uh, yeah, I'd be uneasy and worried. Not necessarily about the porn, but when combined with the lack of interest, it doesn't sound good.


Yeah, that is the disturbing part. My W loves girl/girl porn. Actually prefers it. Something sensual and pretty about it. But she's fairly horny, so it's not a gay thing. She just loves sex.


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## StatusQuo (Jun 4, 2012)

Your issues are bigger than her choice of porn.

There's a reason why she's rejecting your affection, and turning down sex. It's easy to jump to the conclusion that she's cheating (and I've read enough on this board to know that it could be the case), you need to talk to her. Maybe she's feeling unappreciated, maybe she's feeling that you take her for granted, maybe she feels that you aren't meeting her needs somehow, maybe there are a hundred other reasons. The fact of the matter is, you need to talk to her and find out what those reasons are. I wouldn't get so caught up in the porn stuff right now, focus on figuring out why she's feeling the way she is, and what you as a couple can do to remedy the situation.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

StatusQuo said:


> Your issues are bigger than her choice of porn.
> 
> There's a reason why she's rejecting your affection, and turning down sex. It's easy to jump to the conclusion that she's cheating (and I've read enough on this board to know that it could be the case), you need to talk to her. Maybe she's feeling unappreciated, maybe she's feeling that you take her for granted, maybe she feels that you aren't meeting her needs somehow, maybe there are a hundred other reasons. The fact of the matter is, you need to talk to her and find out what those reasons are. I wouldn't get so caught up in the porn stuff right now, focus on figuring out why she's feeling the way she is, and what you as a couple can do to remedy the situation.


She said she thought everything was fine and that this was just the expectation of life. And that someday in the future, when the kids were grown, we would re-connect. She does not see anything wrong with it. She figured if she had sex with me twice a week, she was ding her part as a wife.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Also, she has two girl toys. One that I bought her. Probably a mistake. I was hoping we could introduce it into the bedroom, but no dice. I do know that she uses it when I'm not there (New Batteries) although she says she doesn't use them.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

lifeisnotsogood said:


> And that someday in the future, when the kids were grown, we would re-connect. She does not see anything wrong with it.


Holy crap, my husband used the same excuse for cheating. He said he figured that I would never find out and we could just reconnect sometime after the kids all left home.

I agree that there's more going on here than her choice of porn. If she would react that way to you approaching her in a caring manner about what you found, then I don't know what to suggest


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## MrsOldNews (Feb 22, 2012)

lifeisnotsogood said:


> Also, she has two girl toys. One that I bought her. Probably a mistake. I was hoping we could introduce it into the bedroom, but no dice. I do know that she uses it when I'm not there (New Batteries) although she says she doesn't use them.


Most women who use toys have a healthy sex drive. I wouldn't worry about her having the toys, just why she would want them over the man she married.


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

I can say that from previous experience that I had fantasies that I was not comfortable with. Asking myself if I had some kind of kinky problem. Could be I was slightly embarrassed or ashamed of them. I would suggest that the more you normalize her behavior of girl-girl porn watching ( in other words, react neutrally like it's perfectly acceptable) the closer you will get to her opening up more.


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## GinnyTonia (Jul 31, 2012)

lifeisnotsogood said:


> She said she thought everything was fine and that this was just the expectation of life. And that someday in the future, when the kids were grown, we would re-connect. She does not see anything wrong with it. She figured if she had sex with me twice a week, she was ding her part as a wife.


I feel for both of you. It is somewhat commendable that she's giving her due, but the perfunctory act without the extras you so obviously crave seems demeaning to both of you. 
The belief that you'll re-connect later is false. She may even be unknowingly lying to herself, but what makes her think that she'll suddenly want to do this just because the kids are grown? Further, if your relationship isn't nurtured now, when you find yourself in an empty nest, there will be even less motivation to find company and comfort with eachother. 

She is, at the very least, uptight. The biggest problem with that is she could be denying herself of what she really needs, and in turn, denying you a chance to get your needs met. 
The best thing would be to lead by example of being open with your desires to the extent that she understands that it does make you feel vulnerable, but that they're too important to ignore, and to cultivate a feeling and environment of security so that of she should follow suit, she feels safe that you're not going to judge her or flip your lid. I worry, though, that she's locked her true self up too tight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> Holy crap, my husband used the same excuse for cheating. He said he figured that I would never find out and we could just reconnect sometime after the kids all left home.
> 
> I agree that there's more going on here than her choice of porn. If she would react that way to you approaching her in a caring manner about what you found, then I don't know what to suggest


I don't think she's cheating, but she's certainly not into sex with me. I don't think she has an "O" when we have intercourse most of the time. She says she does sometimes, but I'm guessing not often, maybe once every 10 occasions. I have been with several women in my lifetime and I know the moment a woman has an O. I certainly hope my wife is not cheating. But it makes me wonder. If she was cheating, I'm not certain which would be worse, a man or a woman. If it's a Woman, there is nothing I can compete with.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

MrsOldNews said:


> Most women who use toys have a healthy sex drive. I wouldn't worry about her having the toys, just why she would want them over the man she married.


I don't mind that she has toys, I bought her one. But, now I'm wondering if she is using it as a replacement for me...bummer.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

CanadianGuy said:


> I can say that from previous experience that I had fantasies that I was not comfortable with. Asking myself if I had some kind of kinky problem. Could be I was slightly embarrassed or ashamed of them. I would suggest that the more you normalize her behavior of girl-girl porn watching ( in other words, react neutrally like it's perfectly acceptable) the closer you will get to her opening up more.


A couple of months ago, when she downloaded some of her porn (girl-girl). I mentioned that I noticed it was all girl-girl and asked her if she had fantasies about it. She said she did not and that she just downloaded some stuff quickly. I said it was okay with me if she had that fantasy and the next few times we had sex, I made sure to use the video's she downloaded.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

GinnyTonia said:


> I feel for both of you. It is somewhat commendable that she's giving her due, but the perfunctory act without the extras you so obviously crave seems demeaning to both of you.
> The belief that you'll re-connect later is false. She may even be unknowingly lying to herself, but what makes her think that she'll suddenly want to do this just because the kids are grown? Further, if your relationship isn't nurtured now, when you find yourself in an empty nest, there will be even less motivation to find company and comfort with eachother.
> 
> She is, at the very least, uptight. The biggest problem with that is she could be denying herself of what she really needs, and in turn, denying you a chance to get your needs met.
> ...


I agree with a lot of this, but I hope it's not true. I did tell her it was important to stay connected now, but I think I screwed things up again yesterday.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

She downloading porn people who don't want sex, don't care about porn.
She's using her toys. 

She cares about sex.

Harv you tried reading Married Man Sex Life. and following the MAP and getting your sex rank up?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

So yesterday, I asked her early in the day if she wanted to be intimate later that night. Since it wasn't Thursday or Sunday, she said no, those are our scheduled days. Of course this rejection upset me and I tried to express that feeling to her. She got defensive and said something negative (cant remember) and left the room. We had been watching a show on the couch while the kids entertained themselves. I had my arm around her an it was nice. So this was bad timing on my part, but then, I didn't expect her to react h this way. About 10 minutes later, I went looking for her and found her in our daughters room playing with the cat, So I go from upset to mad and go to bed early (9:30). Of course, when you're mad, it's hard to sleep, so I text her the following:

Me: So, I try to express my feelings and this is what I get?
Her: I'd prefer not to text.

Me: (about 40 minutes later) Will you come and cuddle for a little bit?
Her: no response

Me: I guess that's a no.
Her: No response

So I try to go to sleep, but it's just eating me up inside, so I still can't sleep. I end up picking up my cell phone and go on FB, to kill time and maybe get tired. She walks in and slides into bed all sneaky like, knowing I'm awake. She faces away and tries to sleep. Ummm, no (I think to myself). I ask her what is up and she says she doesn't want to talk about it and just wants to sleep. Ummm, no (again thinking to myself). I can't sleep and I have to be up in less than 5 hours to go to work for 16 hours. I know I won't be able to sleep if we don't discuss it, so I grab my phone and walk out to the living room; she follows about 3 minutes later and says:

Her: I'm tired.
Me: I know, you said that already.

Her: I just want to go to sleep.
Me: You said that too.

Then it's on. She begins to tell me that she sick of me being depressed and that I'm like this dark cloud. She says she and the therapist think I'm depressed and I need to get on medication. I think to myself (No, I just need to get F*%ked every now and then and want some affection) but I really say, I am not taking any medication. I know exactly why I'm feeling this way and medication is not going to resolve it. She then says the burden is all on her and that she deserves to make someone happy. She continues that she always get nervous in the evenings (except Tues and Sun) because she just waiting for me to ask for more and knows we will get in a fight the second she says no. I tell her that part of what we were doing was trying to increase the amount of sexual encounters and since I knew she would never initiate, it leaves it to me to ask. Anyway, by the end of the conversation, I found myself apologizing for being selfish and inconsiderate and nothing really got resolved. She is so good at turning it around.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> She downloading porn people who don't want sex, don't care about porn.
> She's using her toys.
> 
> She cares about sex.
> ...


I have not read any books yet, but I will look for this one. thanks


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

lifeisnotsogood said:


> So yesterday, I asked her early in the day if she wanted to be intimate later that night. Since it wasn't Thursday or Sunday, she said no, those are our scheduled days. Of course this rejection upset me and I tried to express that feeling to her. She got defensive and said something negative (cant remember) and left the room. We had been watching a show on the couch while the kids entertained themselves. I had my arm around her an it was nice. So this was bad timing on my part, but then, I didn't expect her to react h this way. About 10 minutes later, I went looking for her and found her in our daughters room playing with the cat, So I go from upset to mad and go to bed early (9:30). Of course, when you're mad, it's hard to sleep, so I text her the following:
> 
> Me: So, I try to express my feelings and this is what I get?
> Her: I'd prefer not to text.
> ...


I'm sorry to see you are having such problems. IMO, your wife is not in love with you and she still has a decent libido. Bear in mind that I've never been on the brink of divorce in my marriage, so take what I say with a grain of salt. But I think you need to have the talk with your wife about why she is no longer in love with you. You need to let her know that this marriage is at a cross roads, and that the both of you need to decide on whether the two of you will recommit to each other or if it's time to divorce. You can't keep living in limbo like this. My guess is she is not cheating on you right now, but she is using porn and toys to give her the sexual satisfaction she needs. 

Regarding how she fell out of love with you? It could be a number of issues like not being there to listen to her, slacking off on household chores, maybe it's hobbies getting in the way of quality time with the family... who knows. These are some things that have caused spouses to lose feelings for each other among a slew of other things too. This is the root cause of the problem and is what you two need to have a candid discussion about ASAP.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I'm sorry to see you are having such problems. IMO, your wife is not in love with you and she still has a decent libido. Bear in mind that I've never been on the brink of divorce in my marriage, so take what I say with a grain of salt. But I think you need to have the talk with your wife about why she is no longer in love with you. You need to let her know that this marriage is at a cross roads, and that the both of you need to decide on whether the two of you will recommit to each other or if it's time to divorce. You can't keep living in limbo like this. My guess is she is not cheating on you right now, but she is using porn and toys to give her the sexual satisfaction she needs.
> 
> Regarding how she fell out of love with you? It could be a number of issues like not being there to listen to her, slacking off on household chores, maybe it's hobbies getting in the way of quality time with the family... who knows. These are some things that have caused spouses to lose feelings for each other among a slew of other things too. This is the root cause of the problem and is what you two need to have a candid discussion about ASAP.


I thought she might be out of love, so I asked her point blank. She said she still loved me. So, I ask her if she was still "in Love" with me. Again, she said yes. She is taking Hormone therapy to try to increase her libido, so at least she's trying. 

As far as chores are concerned, I work 60+ hours per week and she is a stay-at-home mom. When it's not summer, when drops off 3 of the kids at school and keeps the 2 1/2 year old at home. Instead of cleaning the entire house (she does keep the areas visitors would see clean) she will get on FB, view and respond to emails, and go shopping. When I get home from work I do the outside chores and then come in and try to help a little inside by doing dishes, vacuuming the house, getting the kids ready for bed. I do this because she claims to be tired when I ask to be intimate. It's funny though, she's too tired to have sex with me, but she can stay up another hour watching TV or playing on the computer.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

GinnyTonia said:


> I'm going to flip flop from to some degree regarding what I suggested earlier.
> 
> How would she take it if you detached from her? If you did not ask for these things, found contentment within yourself, with buddies, and with personal interests instead of her? She may be relieved, but considering how she followed you into the living room, I would guess it would cause her some concern and she may both unconsciously and consciously turn toward you and start providing these things to you. It's the rubber band theory.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I thought of this, but I fear, I would go months without intimacy. Then what? I may be so discouraged that I actually take someone up on an affair. I get offers at work all the time. You know, those subtle offers like, "I need a boy toy. Someone like you. But you don't seem the type to do that." I of course ignore the question altogether, or I say, "of course I would. I just gotta ask my wife first." That usually ends the conversion and it is never brought up again. But really, I don't think I could cheat anyway. It's so much easier to tell her how I feel and if it doesn't change, file for separation. I somehow have to get her attention without going through this though.


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## tjohnson (Mar 10, 2010)

Sorry this is going on. 

I applaud you for trying to get to the bottom of this. I give your wife an "atta girl" for at least trying to please you 2x week. Dude this is more than most even if it is obligatory. 

I don't think the problem is her preference to women or liking porn that is girl on girl. I think this is common for hetero women as for reasons we men can't understand (because we are thick) many women don't like to see the frank and beans and/or "money shots" like they show on guy/girl porn. Her using a vibrator and denying using it is not uncommon (my wife is the same way). Despite the recent mainstreaming of toys, to some women it is something they don't want to admit to themselves let alone you. 

Unless your wife is nuts you should recognize her complaints or observations regarding the "dark cloud/depression" as having some merritt. Many people look down on meds for the mind. For many it shows some weakness or flaw. I mean if you were nearsided and had high blood pressure would you squint and risk death....probably not. 

At the very least TRY and understand what the issue is. When my mood goes down so does my sex life. My wife will not tollerate when i am grumpy or selfish. Improve your attitude and the sex will improve. PS don't bring up the snooping


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

lifeisnotsogood said:


> I thought she might be out of love, so I asked her point blank. She said she still loved me. So, I ask her if she was still "in Love" with me. Again, she said yes. She is taking Hormone therapy to try to increase her libido, so at least she's trying.
> 
> As far as chores are concerned, I work 60+ hours per week and she is a stay-at-home mom. When it's not summer, when drops off 3 of the kids at school and keeps the 2 1/2 year old at home. Instead of cleaning the entire house (she does keep the areas visitors would see clean) she will get on FB, view and respond to emails, and go shopping. When I get home from work I do the outside chores and then come in and try to help a little inside by doing dishes, vacuuming the house, getting the kids ready for bed. I do this because she claims to be tired when I ask to be intimate. It's funny though, she's too tired to have sex with me, but she can stay up another hour watching TV or playing on the computer.


I wasn't accusing you of being the "evil husband" or anything, just pointing out some things I've seen that has caused couples to fall out of love. It sounds like you are doing too much if you're taking care of all of the home stuff along with your job. I think your wife is paying you lip service about loving you. She says it with words but not by her actions.

Interesting that you stated that your wife has been taking hormone replacement therapy as a way to try to increase her libido. I'm guessing her libido is fine if she is downloading porn and using her toys while you are not around. I hate to say it, but I think she has emotionally checked out of the marriage for some reason or another. She's lying to you about still being in love. I don't think she's having any EAs or PAs, but she has replaced you with porn, sex toys and FB. Objectively, she IS having an affair, but her affair partners are not people.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

tjohnson said:


> Sorry this is going on.
> 
> I applaud you for trying to get to the bottom of this. I give your wife an "atta girl" for at least trying to please you 2x week. Dude this is more than most even if it is obligatory.
> 
> ...


I agree with some of your post, but I know exactly what is causing me to feel this way. It's the lack of affection and intimacy. This has been going on for years, but it was only recently that I decided to address it. I remember 10 years ago feeling the same way I would ask for sex and she would say no, I'm tired, etc. I finally gave up asking and just accepted it was only going to happen twice a week. But then the quality also declined, no passion, affection, it was more or less like a machine. you go to the bedroom, lube up, and get it done. No kissing, foreplay, etc. I know I could just give up again and revert to the 2 days per week of machine-like sex, but I don't want to. I want to be desired; I deserve that. So yes, I'm bummed about my sex life and lack of affection, but I'm not going to hurt myself over it. I know how to resolve that problem if I have to. i just don't want to go there because I love my wife and want to make it work. 

So here's another example of medication treatment. Let's say Joe lost his job and needed money. His lack of funds depresses him, so he takes meds. Now Joe feels better, because he is not feeling anything at all, which is what most meds are deigned to do. But Joe is still broke and eventually he'll end up in that funk again. The reality is, Joe just needed to get to the root cause and find another job.

My root cause is getting my wife to understand that I'm not going to stick around forever, while she decides whether she finally wants to be more intimate with me or not. The world is full of men and women who desire and want to be desired. I may ultimately end up going that route instead of masking the problem with medication, but I owe it to her and our children to try everything at least once and maybe twice, before making such a life changing decision that will impact so many lives.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I wasn't accusing you of being the "evil husband" or anything, just pointing out some things I've seen that has caused couples to fall out of love. It sounds like you are doing too much if you're taking care of all of the home stuff along with your job. I think your wife is paying you lip service about loving you. She says it with words but not by her actions.
> 
> Interesting that you stated that your wife has been taking hormone replacement therapy as a way to try to increase her libido. I'm guessing her libido is fine if she is downloading porn and using her toys while you are not around. I hate to say it, but I think she has emotionally checked out of the marriage for some reason or another. She's lying to you about still being in love. I don't think she's having any EAs or PAs, but she has replaced you with porn, sex toys and FB. Objectively, she IS having an affair, but her affair partners are not people.


Maybe she finds it easier to have an O when she uses her toys...bummer for me. If I find out she is really out of love, I will let you know. We are in counseling, have been for a couple of months.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

lifeisnotsogood said:


> Maybe she finds it easier to have an O when she uses her toys...bummer for me.


I wouldn't say that at all, and I hope you aren't thinking that this is the case. The only thing I was pointing out was she still seems to have a sex drive. Somehow she lost her emotional bond with you and I think that is affecting her physical attraction to you. It has nothing to do with a toy being better than you (most definitely this is not the case). I'm no professional, but my guess is she is addicted to the computer and is taking time away from you to get her fix.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I wouldn't say that at all, and I hope you aren't thinking that this is the case. The only thing I was pointing out was she still seems to have a sex drive. Somehow she lost her emotional bond with you and I think that is affecting her physical attraction to you. It has nothing to do with a toy being better than you (most definitely this is not the case). I'm no professional, but my guess is she is addicted to the computer and is taking time away from you to get her fix.


She does spend a lot of time on the both the computer and her phone, texting her friends.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

It does sound like her porn preference is girl-on-girl. This does not mean she is a lesbian or bisexual. I know a lesbian couple who prefer guy-on-guy porn.

It appears you have a sex/affection problem & getting to the root of that instead of wondering (lesbian, etc.) will help your marriage.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Emerald said:


> It does sound like her porn preference is girl-on-girl. This does not mean she is a lesbian or bisexual. I know a lesbian couple who prefer guy-on-guy porn.
> 
> It appears you have a sex/affection problem & getting to the root of that instead of wondering (lesbian, etc.) will help your marriage.


I think you're right. I really don't know where I went wrong to cause this or what I could have done differently. We have had fights in the past,but nothing major. I hope counseling helps shed some light on the issues. I would do anything to change it or at least make it better.


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## Anomnom (Jun 25, 2012)

lifeisnotsogood said:


> We have sex twice a week which is scheduled or it would never happen. However, during sex, she would only want to do the missionary position. No kissing during sex, no foreplay, just straight to the point with lube and I have to go get ready so she can do it between commercials. I accepted this because I was at least getting something,


I would prefer not to have sex at all personally if this was all that was on offer. It is straight out pity sex. No emotion. This must be killing your self esteem. 



> When I ask my wife the the problem is. Why there's no foreplay, she says it tickles her boobs when I kiss them, or that she not in the mood for oral, ever really. Then she reminds me that getting it twice a week is better than a lot of her friends and that I should be happy.


My feeling from reading all your posts is that she is not attracted to you any more and not 'in love' with you. I feel this way about my husband and I too find it almost irritating when he touches me. There's nothing about getting pity sex that you should be happy about.



> Recently, I tried to increase the passion, kissing, hugging more and trying to cuddle. She rejected my advances, saying she's not a kisser.


More proof that she no longer finds you attractive..if she used to kiss you passionately for the first few years, this is a blatent lie saying she's not a kisser, she just doesn't want to kiss you.

I think she's just trying to protect your feelings by telling you that she's still in love with you. You don't treat someone like she is treating you if you are in love with them. 

As she's using toys and watching porn she obviously still has a healthy sex drive, but just not interested in it with you. It is harsh but from an outsider reading this and from my own experience with my lack of attraction to my husband in recent times it all points towards her not being attracted or in love with you 



> When I mentioned it to her, she dismissed it and said she didn't really pay attention to what she was downloading because the kids were in the living room and she had to do it quick.


Obvious lie..of course you know the gist of things you're downloading. I watch a bit of girl on girl action but probably only 10% of overall porn that I watch.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Anomnom said:


> I would prefer not to have sex at all personally if this was all that was on offer. It is straight out pity sex. No emotion. This must be killing your self esteem.
> 
> 
> My feeling from reading all your posts is that she is not attracted to you any more and not 'in love' with you. I feel this way about my husband and I too find it almost irritating when he touches me. There's nothing about getting pity sex that you should be happy about.
> ...


I agree that it is demoralizing for me to receive pity sex and it does feel as there is no real emotion (passion, affection, etc.), but It's hard to go without. I think I would eventually have an affair if I went to zero for an extended period of time, and I don't want to go there, I'd rather leave.

She has been kissing more, even make out style kissing. Not as much as would like, but it has improved.

I felt it wasn't an accident she was downloading girl on girl porn when I initially discovered it, but my suspicions were put to rest when I found the much older porn that was the same.

So, what would your husband have to do to get you to want him again? I am willing to try anything.

I don't think she uses her toys a lot, but she does use them.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

My STBXW would avoid intimacy/sex, and in my opinion, it was due primarily to low self esteem and body image issues. She would stay up at night watching tv/movies and drinking too much, avoiding the bed while I was awake. She would use the kids and alcohol as an intimacy shield. Yet she would refuse any attempts to improve anything. Eventually, her refusal to even try to fix things was too much, and I initiated the separation, but not before I had two affairs. The affairs were NOT her fault; I take complete ownership of my decision to seek someone out, and I should have ended the marriage first obviously. And just as an FYI, our sex life dwindled down to once a month or 6 weeks... 

Anyway, something to consider about why she's not into sex that doesn't involve bi/gay tendencies or even cheating.

C


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

PBear said:


> My STBXW would avoid intimacy/sex, and in my opinion, it was due primarily to low self esteem and body image issues. She would stay up at night watching tv/movies and drinking too much, avoiding the bed while I was awake. She would use the kids and alcohol as an intimacy shield. Yet she would refuse any attempts to improve anything. Eventually, her refusal to even try to fix things was too much, and I initiated the separation, but not before I had two affairs. The affairs were NOT her fault; I take complete ownership of my decision to seek someone out, and I should have ended the marriage first obviously. And just as an FYI, our sex life dwindled down to once a month or 6 weeks...
> 
> Anyway, something to consider about why she's not into sex that doesn't involve bi/gay tendencies or even cheating.
> 
> C


Well I hope she is not cheating. I think it would be very difficult as we have 4 kids and she usually has at least one every time she leaves the house.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

She's on the phone a lot texting her friends.... do you know what is being said in those conversations?

By the way, I wouldn't feel guilty about snooping. I'm married. I do not have any expectation of privacy against my wife. If she wants to snoop through my drawers or car she is welcome to. She has my email and facebook passwords too. This is call... um... marriage. 

Btw, my wife did catch me going through her drawers one day. She asked what I was doing, I told her I was just being nosey. She said "Oh, okay" and went about her business.


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## Anomnom (Jun 25, 2012)

lifeisnotsogood said:


> So, what would your husband have to do to get you to want him again? I am willing to try anything.


My husband has no libido so for the last couple of years we've only done it every few months anyway. Over the years of dealing with the constant rejection and lack of intimacy I have gradually been losing attraction and my in love feelings towards him. He said some unforgivable stuff to me in a fight (death threats) which completely severed any remaining affection I had for him so now I have zero desire to give anything of myself to him physically or emotionally. 

So this isn't helpful to you as you're in a very different situation. Unless you can think of a time you had a fight and may have said stuff that made her angry and that's a cause! It's great you're going to MC, it shows you both want to work things out, so best of luck to you.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

sandc said:


> She's on the phone a lot texting her friends.... do you know what is being said in those conversations?
> 
> By the way, I wouldn't feel guilty about snooping. I'm married. I do not have any expectation of privacy against my wife. If she wants to snoop through my drawers or car she is welcome to. She has my email and facebook passwords too. This is call... um... marriage.
> 
> Btw, my wife did catch me going through her drawers one day. She asked what I was doing, I told her I was just being nosey. She said "Oh, okay" and went about her business.


I don't look at her texts much, I have looked a couple of times, but not lately. I don't think I have much to worry about in that regard. Her iphone is not locked, so I could look at it every day if I wanted to. She doesn't protect her phone in other ways either, like bringing it to bed. She leaves it laying around anywhere, like the kitchen, bathroom, etc., so I doubt there is anything there.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Anomnom said:


> My husband has no libido so for the last couple of years we've only done it every few months anyway. Over the years of dealing with the constant rejection and lack of intimacy I have gradually been losing attraction and my in love feelings towards him. He said some unforgivable stuff to me in a fight (death threats) which completely severed any remaining affection I had for him so now I have zero desire to give anything of myself to him physically or emotionally.
> 
> So this isn't helpful to you as you're in a very different situation. Unless you can think of a time you had a fight and may have said stuff that made her angry and that's a cause! It's great you're going to MC, it shows you both want to work things out, so best of luck to you.


Wow, I would never make a death threat, but we have had our share of arguments. I think my worst threat has been a divorce over the lack of sex and affection. But I think that would be expected if you really meant it.

I'm sorry about your situation. It sounds like you guys are still together. Are You? If yes, why?


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Last night was good. My wife in on her period and we never have intercourse or anything during that time. I asked her if she would do something for me, and to my surprise, she said okay. What a good night.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

Have you considered planting a VAR or a camera to see what she does do while you're away? Maybe to definitely rule out that she does not have another person on the side?


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## Jibril (May 23, 2012)

I'll be honest, in my cynical and possibly unhelpful way - there are some _bad_ things going on with your marriage, lifeisnotsogood.

The biggest issue I see is the lack of healthy communication in your relationship. It seems you can't open up or confront her about anything without her getting defensive or upset. I also sense that you're afraid to confront her in general _because_ she gets upset, so you let things slide when you really shouldn't. This is a _very big_ problem. You and her have fallen into very bad habits since this has been going on for so long. 

Your sex life is lifeless and routine. Lifeless and routine sex is _not fun sex_. You're crippling your sex life by working it into a schedule, rather than making it something spontaneous, passionate and energetic. This was born out of the first issue - your lack of communication with your wife. Rather than trying to maintain the same passion and affection you had when you first started dating, you let sex and affection fall by the wayside. Now your wife is accustomed to routine, get-it-over-with sex with you, and you don't have the gumption to change that. 

Your wife's secret sexual libido, her penchant for pornography, and her gas-lighting and avoidance of sex with you all smell (reek, really) of deception and infidelity. You know from the fact that she watches porn and masturbates regularly that she _does_ have an interest in sex. She isn't interested in sex with _you_. It could be that she just isn't attracted to you anymore, and that she is simply going through the motions with you out of marital obligation. Or, it could be that she isn't giving you her sex and affection as often as you'd like because she's giving it to someone else. That she spends a lot of her time on the computer or messaging on her phone, rather than being intimate with you, suggests that something is going on behind the scenes.

You won't know if she's cheating unless you do some digging of your own. Sure, she leaves her phone lying around. Maybe she's deleting texts. Check your phone records. Check for particular numbers she texts/calls abnormally often. She's on the computer a lot? Doing what? Facebook? Do you have access to whatever she's doing online? Can you access her e-mail accounts at all? Does she drive around a lot? Does she go to girls-night-outs with friends often? A VAR will help you listen-in to her conversations when she's away from home (and out of you earshot). Hell, a hidden VAR by the home computer may be worthwhile as well. She may be having an affair over Skype.

If you don't find any proper leads by snooping around, then the only thing you can change in this relationship is yourself. You will need to break bad habits and assert yourself. But will you? You didn't marry into a passionless, dull and routine marriage. Your wife has no desire for you, and you are doing nothing to attract her to you, or divorce yourself from that situation. Don't fool yourself into thinking that you'll "reconnect" when the kids are older. If you aren't connected now, and she has no desire for you, what makes you think that will change in the future? The question, ultimately, is this - can you live in a marriage like this for the rest of your life? If the answer is "no," then what do you intend to do about it?

Firstly, I suggest you detach and do things for _you_. Any hobbies you've neglected since you married? Any passions you've given up on? Maybe you really liked fishing, or working on your bike. Do these things. Treat _yourself_, damn-it. Buy yourself some snazzy clothes. Some new shoes. Hit the gym. Stop seeking validation from your wife. Stop doing chores for your wife. Stop placating your wife. Stop walking around eggshells around your wife. Stop pleading for sex. In fact, stop having sex with her entirely. At least, for a while. 

In the meantime, work/focus on yourself. This will help you feel more secure and confident about _you_. And I don't doubt doing things _you_ like will make you happier too. Right now, you're stressing yourself over your wife and what she isn't doing for you. She can't make you happy, and she isn't at the moment anyway. Take responsibility for your own happiness. 

After a while, two things may happen. Your newfound energy and passion may attract her to you again. Or, she may still be uninterested in you. But you will be in a different frame of mind at that point, and you can make a proper decision about whether you want to stay committed to her, or divorce and find someone who can respect and love you the way you want, and deserve.


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## Anomnom (Jun 25, 2012)

lifeisnotsogood said:


> I'm sorry about your situation. It sounds like you guys are still together. Are You? If yes, why?


Yes. We have a 10 month old baby. He's a fantastic dad and I don't think it's fair on either of them for me to destroy that relationship by seperating at this point in time. Kids definitely complicate things.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Jibril said:


> I'll be honest, in my cynical and possibly unhelpful way - there are some _bad_ things going on with your marriage, lifeisnotsogood.
> 
> The biggest issue I see is the lack of healthy communication in your relationship. It seems you can't open up or confront her about anything without her getting defensive or upset. I also sense that you're afraid to confront her in general _because_ she gets upset, so you let things slide when you really shouldn't. This is a _very big_ problem. You and her have fallen into very bad habits since this has been going on for so long.
> 
> ...


I didn't say she masturbates often. I just said that I know she does because one day, the batteries in her toy were dead and the next time, about a month later, there were new batteries in it.

You are right about the lifeless and routine sex life, but she's doesn't drive around a lot and when she does, she usually has one of the kids. GNO is about once every other month from about 5pm-9:30pm and is usually dinner. Sometimes she'll have GNI at our house and it includes some drinking and a bunch of kids.

I do like your idea of making myself happy. I started running a couple of weeks ago and I'm getting back into a regular workout routine. 

The divorce part would be difficult for me, which is why I sought out counseling. I'm not saying I couldn't go a day without seeing my 4 kids because, frankly, it's sometimes nice not to be around all the chaos. I just wouldn't want my kids to be in a broken home. I think it would be devastating for them and would change their life forever. I have considered divorce in the past, and I know it would be difficult for a while, but I think it's just too much for my kids to handle...especially the disabled 10-year old. He would not understand. It saddens me just thinking about it. I have to try and fix this somehow.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Anomnom said:


> Yes. We have a 10 month old baby. He's a fantastic dad and I don't think it's fair on either of them for me to destroy that relationship by seperating at this point in time. Kids definitely complicate things.


Isn't that the truth. Kids do complicate things. If I didn't have kids, I wouldn't be in this situation. I would have either fixed it or I would have left long ago.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

One more thing. Since I'm on high alert, I notice more things, like, she came home with 2 pairs of underwear that she would not normally wear. They are not G-strings or anything, they almost look like boxer shorts however her butt hangs out the bottom. When I told her, "You don't normally wear this type of underwear," she responds, "Yes I do." I think to myself...No, you don't, I've been through your underwear drawer.

Even in my "Love is blind" state, I know I should be worried about this.


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## Hopefull363 (Feb 13, 2012)

lifeisnotsogood said:


> One more thing. Since I'm on high alert, I notice more things, like, she came home with 2 pairs of underwear that she would not normally wear. They are not G-strings or anything, they almost look like boxer shorts however her butt hangs out the bottom. When I told her, "You don't normally wear this type of underwear," she responds, "Yes I do." I think to myself...No, you don't, I've been through your underwear drawer.
> 
> Even in my "Love is blind" state, I know I should be worried about this.


Now I'd really start to worry. If she's not acting more sexual with you then there's a reason she bought them. Start with her phone and the computer.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Hopefull363 said:


> Now I'd really start to worry. If she's not acting more sexual with you then there's a reason she bought them. Start with her phone and the computer.


I know, I thought to dismiss it altogether, but it's eating away at me. Why does she all of a sudden buy cute undies. Hmmm...


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## Jibril (May 23, 2012)

What? She's buying sexy undies that she doesn't normally wear, now?










When did she buy these? Today? Did she drive to get them? Put a VAR in the car if that's the case. As soon as you can.

And have you checked the phone records for suspicious frequent calls? Do you have access to her Facebook and emails, or does she hide these from you? 

Suspicious...


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

lifeisnotsogood said:


> I gotta admit, the more people who respond like this, the more worried I get. VAR? Anyone know of a good one?


Pity sex, no affection, no passion, several videos of girl on girl porn, new sexy undies (2 pair) that I have not seen her wear since she bought them last week, tells me she's not a kisser, I guess I should be worried.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

lifeisnotsogood said:


> Pity sex, no affection, no passion, several videos of girl on girl porn, new sexy undies (2 pair) that I have not seen her wear since she bought them last week, tells me she's not a kisser, I guess I should be worried.


Yes you should. So in addition to read MMSL and executing the MAP from it, get a var in her car ASAP.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> Yes you should. So in addition to read MMSL and executing the MAP from it, get a var in her car ASAP.


What is MMSL?


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Married mans Sex Life by Kay Athol.


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## Jibril (May 23, 2012)

I see this question asked all the time at the CWI forum, and I always forget to take note of recommendations.

Obviously some are better than others, but they are very easy to find regardless, and you can buy them damn-near anywhere. I think you can get an effective VAR for anywhere from $30-60, though you can obviously invest in a more expensive one if you want. I think I've seen the Olympus brand thrown around on CWI. You can get a VAR at Best Buy, Walmart, Radio Shack, etc. 

Be sure to test it first to learn how effective it is at picking up conversations. Buy some velcro tape and attach it under the driver seat, and drive around town with the VAR on. Position it as best you can under the seat for optimal recordings.


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## moG247 (Aug 4, 2012)

This is my first post on TAM. Could someone please tell me what a VAR is so I can purchase one for myself? "lifeisnotsogood" I'm here to tell you, you're not the only one going through this, I'll share my story tomorrow; but in the mean time I'll pray for both of our marriages. Our stories are so similar, but last year I found out my wife was having an affair, she said it was just an emotional one through texting, emailing, and Facebook... But it still hurt and I'm just starting to bounce back.

P.S. I still think I need a VAR, so could someone please tells what that stands for? Your assistance and cooperation is appreciated in advance...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Consider getting two Voice Activated Recorders - that way you can have one in the car while you listen to the other, and then you swap them.

Olympus is the popular brand to get.


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## moG247 (Aug 4, 2012)

Thank you for that info "Shaggy" now if only I can figure out how to recover the deleted texts from her iPhone... lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

We were supposed to go to MC today. She scheduled another appointment and couldn't make it. She said she thought we didn't have an appointment, so she scheduled something she couldn't back out of. I went to MC alone and of course the counselor said she could not see me alone because it was approved for couples counseling. And I had to pay the full amount that the insurance would have paid $71. I was so irritated at both the counselor and my wife.

I texted my wife stating the following.

Me: Well, our appointment was cancelled because you weren't there and we got charged $71. I was so irritated, I almost told her to cancel all our upcoming appts. Please don't schedule things during our MC in the future. You already know we have this every week at the same time.

Her: Sorry. I thought since I called her, she would be ok with it.

Me: That still doesn't change the fact that you prioritized your stuff over us.

Her: Ok well I guess you are mad so I'll talk to you later. Like I told you, I honestly thought I was making the appt. on the Monday that we didn't have therapy. Whatever.

Me: (getting weak) I am a little irritated but I'll get over it. I love U!

What I should have said is something much different. Even now I don't know what i should have said, but it should have included "Whatever!" also.


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## Jibril (May 23, 2012)

What did she schedule that was more important than fixing the marriage? Jeez. I would have told her to cancel whatever the hell she "committed" to, because counseling was more important. I wouldn't have let it slide. You communicated that you were upset about her not making it, but it doesn't change the fact that she made whatever she was doing a priority.

I wouldn't have squeezed in that last "I love U," either. I'm sure she knows you do. I would have ended the conversation with a "We'll talk later." 

As for recovering the iPhone texts, LordMayhem usually posts this on the CWI forums, so check it out:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/752989-post28.html


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Jibril said:


> What did she schedule that was more important than fixing the marriage? Jeez. I would have told her to cancel whatever the hell she "committed" to, because counseling was more important. I wouldn't have let it slide. You communicated that you were upset about her not making it, but it doesn't change the fact that she made whatever she was doing a priority.
> 
> I wouldn't have squeezed in that last "I love U," either. I'm sure she knows you do. I would have ended the conversation with a "We'll talk later."
> 
> ...


She scheduled interviews and was on the interview panel, so I agree she would not be able to cancel, but she should have never scheduled it for that day.

I know I shouldn't have added that last, "I love U". How pathetic.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

I'm still waiting to see those sexy undies she bought. She has not worn them for me yet. It's only been a week though.


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## Jibril (May 23, 2012)

Detach. Do the 180, and _keep listening_.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Jibril said:


> Detach. Do the 180, and _keep listening_.


Can I still have sex during the 180? This blows.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I go back to MMSL and it's view on husband-wife interaction, I think your wife is very much complaining that she would much prefer you leading etc, than being sensitive.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> I go back to MMSL and it's view on husband-wife interaction, I think your wife is very much complaining that she would much prefer you leading etc, than being sensitive.


I think she would prefer nothing, No sex, no leading, just left alone. I didn't used to be this sensitive until recently when things felt like they were falling apart. Then I went from confident to desperate overnight.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

honeysuckle rose said:


> I think your real issue is that she just isn't really into sex with you. I have to admit that I've become a lot like your wife, in that I don't like being touched at this point in my life. Before I was always ready to go and loved sex. Not sure if this is a phase or if that's just how your wife and I have evolved, as we weren't always cold fish.
> 
> It sounds like she's resentful about something. You probably have no clue what it could be. But she's probably angry at you for some reason...(yes, this is how we are).
> 
> ...


Pssh. I don't think women are nicer to look at. I'd take a naked male body ANY DAY over a woman's. I have boobs. If I want to see them, I'll look at myself. 

That said, to the OP: I am not a porn watcher and neither is my husband. However, I can say that it definitely sounds as though your wife is bitter about something. I absolutely LOVE kisses and affection and cuddling from my husband in all ways. I couldn't imagine living without it. And I can't imagine turning down oral sex. I also am not a fan of anal at all. 

I'm not sure what advice to give...but maybe see if there's something specific she's upset over?


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Pssh. I don't think women are nicer to look at. I'd take a naked male body ANY DAY over a woman's. I have boobs. If I want to see them, I'll look at myself.
> 
> That said, to the OP: I am not a porn watcher and neither is my husband. However, I can say that it definitely sounds as though your wife is bitter about something. I absolutely LOVE kisses and affection and cuddling from my husband in all ways. I couldn't imagine living without it. And I can't imagine turning down oral sex. I also am not a fan of anal at all.
> 
> I'm not sure what advice to give...but maybe see if there's something specific she's upset over?


I'm not sure what it could be. She tells me over and over that she's just not into sex and only does it for me. She has told me that she has gotten really mad in the past when she said she had a headache and I still had sex with her. I wouldn't have done that if she didn't pick the days and the times. It's like if you had a desert in the fridge and you were thinking about it all day because today is the day you get to eat it. You just can't wait until you get home so you could devour it. Then you get home, open the fridge and it's gone. what a disappointment. That's what I feel like when she tells me she has a headache, so of course I'm still going to have sex with her if she says, "I have a headache, but if you still want to, we can." I'm guessing she could have a little resentment over that. The solution is, don't put me on a schedule or turn me down every single time I ask that way I'll know that if you have a headache today, at least tomorrow is a possibility.


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## tjohnson (Mar 10, 2010)

You need to back the #@%k off. She called you "needy" to her friend. I have been this way with an EX. You might as well spray off on yourself. A needy man is worse than an inconsiderate jerk. 

The "I love you" after she blew off MC spoke volumes. 

She is probably resisting MC because what is she supposed to say "i am not attracted to my H because he is a Needy.... 

Follow the advise of the people talking about the mans guide thing. you need it dude....sorry for the harsh words you need it.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

lifeisnotsogood said:


> I'm not sure what it could be. She tells me over and over that she's just not into sex and only does it for me. She has told me that she has gotten really mad in the past when she said she had a headache and I still had sex with her. I wouldn't have done that if she didn't pick the days and the times. It's like if you had a desert in the fridge and you were thinking about it all day because today is the day you get to eat it. You just can't wait until you get home so you could devour it. Then you get home, open the fridge and it's gone. what a disappointment. That's what I feel like when she tells me she has a headache, so of course I'm still going to have sex with her if she says, "I have a headache, but if you still want to, we can."


No kidding. If she has a headache and really doesn't want to, then she should woman up and just say so. Getting mad at you because of a choice she has made is ridiculous. If I'm not feeling well and I know my husband planned on making love, I come right to the point and say, "Hey honey, I know we were supposed to make love tonight, but I don't feel well at all. I'll definitely make it up to you tomorrow night, so long as I'm not really sick." And then I make it up to him. I don't force myself to have sex with him and then blame him later for not reading my mind. And, if I do have sex with him, I make sure to remind myself that it was MY choice to do so 

And, actually, sex has been proven to help headaches go away. So, it's kind of ironic.



lifeisnotsogood said:


> I'm guessing she could have a little resentment over that. The solution is, don't put me on a schedule or turn me down every single time I ask that way I'll know that if you have a headache today, at least tomorrow is a possibility.


Exactly. It's silly for her to resent you, when it sounds as though she has created the issue in the first place. I could be wrong, but it sounds as if she's mad that you won't let the sexual frequency drop to what she wants it to be. Some women that I have talked to before about such things have often said that a wife shouldn't have to have sex with her husband if she doesn't want to, so that could be her mindset to...that it's unloving for you to ask her to have sex when she's not in the mood. The other side of that coin, however, is that it's just as unloving for her to not have sex with you when you are in the mood. 

So, there should be compromises in situations like this, in my opinion. Which it sounds like there has been a compromise...a large one, in my opinion. You're a brave man to let her "schedule" the days you're going to have sex. I keep trying to think of things that might help her feel more loved and cherished, but they all involve physical touch...I haven't read your whole thread so I don't know what others have said...Is there anything you can do for her/buy her that she would think was a really sweet gesture? Is she fond of flowers? Does she like going to the movies? Is there a specific restaurant that she loves? 

I don't think you should have to go through hurdles just to get her to cooperate with you, and I hesitate to ask these questions because I don't want to imply that you've done anything wrong here. As a woman though, I have been at the point where my husband was getting sex quite often and my other emotional needs were being a bit neglected. Not on purpose, life happens, but they weren't being met. And it hurts. It can make a girl feel like she's only useful for her vagina. To her, maybe that's where she's coming from? Maybe giving her some non-sexual and non-physical attention would help?


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> No kidding. If she has a headache and really doesn't want to, then she should woman up and just say so. Getting mad at you because of a choice she has made is ridiculous. If I'm not feeling well and I know my husband planned on making love, I come right to the point and say, "Hey honey, I know we were supposed to make love tonight, but I don't feel well at all. I'll definitely make it up to you tomorrow night, so long as I'm not really sick." And then I make it up to him. I don't force myself to have sex with him and then blame him later for not reading my mind. And, if I do have sex with him, I make sure to remind myself that it was MY choice to do so
> 
> And, actually, sex has been proven to help headaches go away. So, it's kind of ironic.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I thought of the "only useful for her vagina" and listened to the things she likes, so I could do more of it. At one point she said she found me more appealing when I spent more times with the kids, so I did that even more. I also thought that she could just be tired because the kids can wear you down, so I helped with cooking and cleaning...still, nothing. I don't remember the last time she initiated sex, unless it was a scheduled day and she wanted to get it out of the way so she could get back to her show. Here's what she does;

Her: Well I'm not going to be up all night so if you want to do it, go get ready.

Me: okay.

Then in the bedroom.

Her: Where's the towel? (foreplay). Hurry up. (more foreplay)...ugh (terms of endearment)

Me: I was thinking...maybe...
Her: No! I didn't take a shower.

Me: Thinking to myself (she didn't shower on purpose.)
Her: Hurry up!

Me: Thinking to myself again (Is this worth it?) and then have sex anyway because the next scheduled day is a few days away.

Me: Thank you!
Her: Don't say that. I makes it sound like i'm a prostitute.

Me: Sorry.

Then she goes back out to the living room for another 2 hours, even though she said she was not going to be up all night. Then I go to bed resenting her just a little more than the previous time and I think to myself how it used to be early in our relationship and wonder if we could ever get back there again. Then I wonder if I should just move on. There's gotta be other women out there that won't treat me like this.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

I forgot. Have you read Married Man Sex Life yet?

Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

sandc said:


> I forgot. Have you read Married Man Sex Life yet?
> 
> Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits.


No. Wrote it down and will go to the library today to see if they have it. Thanks for the reminder. I don't really care to do it like rabbits, I just want her to want to do it instead of feeling like she has to.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

lifeisnotsogood said:


> Yeah, I thought of the "only useful for her vagina" and listened to the things she likes, so I could do more of it. At one point she said she found me more appealing when I spent more times with the kids, so I did that even more. I also thought that she could just be tired because the kids can wear you down, so I helped with cooking and cleaning...still, nothing. I don't remember the last time she initiated sex, unless it was a scheduled day and she wanted to get it out of the way so she could get back to her show. Here's what she does;
> 
> Her: Well I'm not going to be up all night so if you want to do it, go get ready.
> 
> ...


I would feel emotionally suffocated if my husband treated me that way. And, someone mentioned you being "needy" and how you should lay off. In my opinion, that's just bs. There is _nothing_ "needy" about a man desiring his wife sexually. It's one of my favorite things about my husband. He makes his desire for me very clear, and it's a _good_ thing. Don't let anyone every try and convince you that you're weak merely because you desire sex with your wife. You were meant to have that desire. I know a lot of people don't use the word "need" with sex, but my husband and I are two people who aren't ashamed to say, "Yeah, I need sex with my spouse." Because we do. 

Being Christians, my husband and I have some pretty negative views on divorce. However, we believe that sex and other emotional needs are two things that _should_ be present in marriage. I can't say that I would blame you if you left. Not that I think you should. Even though her changes are small, at least they're occurring at all.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

I can't give up. At least she is trying. I know the changes area occurring slower than I would have hoped, but at least they are happening.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

When she does the whole I'm not staying up late, hurry up routine

Try ignoring it and just do your thing. Don't even acknowledge she said it. Just like when you tell the kids to finish up their game or show because you need to get going. They just keep at their own pace and tune out your pleas. Tune out her complaints.

Oh, and erase the word sorry from your vocabulary.

If in the future you do something wrong and need to accept accountability, then for that occasion use "yes, I should have done that differently"

But saying sorry for doing something you fully intended to do, but which annoyed her turns you into someone begging their masters forgiveness and not a equal partner who stands by his needs and choices.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> When she does the whole I'm not staying up late, hurry up routine
> 
> Try ignoring it and just do your thing. Don't even acknowledge she said it. Just like when you tell the kids to finish up their game or show because you need to get going. They just keep at their own pace and tune out your pleas. Tune out her complaints.
> 
> ...


Good point. I'm usually just sorry things didn't go my way and not really sorry for asking.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

So yesterday I sent her an email, because I was feeling a little...emotional I guess. Here's what I said and how she responded:


XXX,


I just wanted to let you know that I am blessed to have you in my life. You are the most amazing mother to our children, and I know when they get older they will tell their spouses and children what a wonderful childhood they had because of you, and all you did for them. I am also glad you are doing all you can to make me feel better too; I love you for that; I love you for everything that you are. I am so lucky to be able to call you my wife, and there is no where I would rather be.

I Love You!

XXX

(Okay. Weak and pathetic moment for me, I know.)

Her response:


XXXX,

Thank you hon. I do REALLY REALLY love you, and want to be with you forever. I am lucky to be able to be a mom to all the kids like I always wanted to be. 

XOXOX,

XXXX

I don't know. I think my weak moment paid off a bit. Later, when I got home, she was more affectionate than she's been in a very long time. She sat next to me on the couch, held my hand, kissed a little. And of course, since it was a scheduled day, I received a prize later that night. There was more kissing involved, initiated by her. It was really nice.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

Maybe you're discovering her love language.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

sandc said:


> Maybe you're discovering her love language.


Maybe. I don't want to over-do-it, so I think I'll use that occasionally as a reminder.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Chris Taylor said:


> Nice that the "scheduled" day ended on a good note. But in terms of what she wrote back, I have to say that my wife will respond in a similar fashion, telling me how much she loves me, etc... and the same day later tell me what an f'ing a-hole I am.
> 
> Words are cheap. Actions speak louder.


LOL. That is too funny and often true. Although yesterday it felt different, almost like she really meant it. Could just be my sensitive side. Only time will tell.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Chris Taylor said:


> Here's the thing... whether it's in marriage counseling or sitting across from her in the kitchen, you need to explain that a fulfilling, intimate sexual relationship is necessary in the marriage to keep it together.
> 
> Pity sex, heartless BJ/HJ's and scheduled, emotionless sex does not constitute a fulfilling, intimate sexual relationship.
> 
> If she gives you the "sex isn't important to me" line, ask her then is it OK if you get it elsewhere (rhetorical question only). It seems it isn't important unless that is the alternative.


I like that. Haven't presented that option before. Next time the opportunity presents itself I will ask her that.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

I think that's fine with the exception that you should listen to this last VAR recording before deleting it. 

Read the forum, how many men caught something by chance? This could be your chance. If it's clear, nothing bad, then delete it and go from there.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

deceit! Deceit! Deceit!. I just got off the phone with the wife after reading an email that she was dropping off one child at a friends house and then she was going to go grocery shopping. I asked where the other kids were and she said they were there with her. Then she asks why. I told her I was making sure she was not just leaving them behind like she does sometimes when she's making a quick trip to the local store. She then says it depends if the little one is asleep. She said if he is, she will have the oldest stay home so the baby could sleep. I told her I was not comfortable with that and the oldest should not be baby sitting yet. She then suggested that I would do it, but I interrupted and told her I have never done that. She asked, What would you do if he was asleep?" I said I would wake the baby and take all the kids with me. She then got upset and said she didn't want to talk about it. The most irritating part is that I had to ask 20?s to find out her plans, because she obviously didn't want to volunteer the information.

I am at work and will not be home until after 9PM.

This is very troublesome and makes me wonder why she wants to be alone...ugh. All those insecure anxiety feelings are coming back. WTF?


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Have you expressed any of your concerns to her? I mean, women can be cruel and manipulative some times but one thing we can't do is a read a man's mind. And by express, I mean tell her honestly and truthfully how her detachment makes you feel; the loneliness, the distrust, the fear...all of it. And DON'T APOLOGIZE FOR ANY OF IT. Don't let her bring it back on you. By apologizing for it you're confirming to her that this is your issue, not hers. 

While there's nothing wrong with needing and wanting your wife, I think if you stood up and expressed your feelings without looking weak, that she might see things differently. I'm not saying you are weak, but, imo, that's what SHE thinks of you. I have known some weak men in my life and I NEVER dated them, I never flirted with them, and I was never attracted to them. If you were to tell your wife all of your feelings and fears without apologizing for ANYTHING, no matter how angry she gets, then maybe she'll finally start to see that she is causing a lot of pain for you.

Really, stand up for yourself. And if that doesn't work, I think you should try pulling away from her. Try showing her that you're _not needy_, that you can totally live without her, even if you don't feel like you can. She sounds like a woman who LOVES control, and will do or say anything to be in control. Take that control away from her and see what happens. Cause, honestly, there are plenty of women who live to please their husbands and adore them above everyone else. You don't deserve to live like this.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

lifeisnotsogood said:


> So yesterday I sent her an email, because I was feeling a little...emotional I guess. Here's what I said and how she responded:
> 
> 
> XXX,
> ...


It sounds like she responds to hearing your words of affirmation. Do you think she'd like to receive a love letter from you? I know I love it when my husband sends me sweet texts throughout the day, and I LLOOVVEE it when he writes me love letters. Maybe try giving her more positive words of affirmation and see how she responds?

And it's not weakness to tell your wife you love her.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

lifeisnotsogood said:


> LOL. That is too funny and often true. Although yesterday it felt different, almost like she really meant it. Could just be my sensitive side. Only time will tell.


You can't expect a 180 degree change over night. Take the kissing and cuddling as a VERY good sign for now. And, if I were you, I wouldn't make the positive affirmation an "occasional" thing. Usually love languages need to be spoken daily, in some way. Especially when a couple is working through issues, the talk you do have can be very negative. For her, it's going to talk a lot of positive affirmation from you to really cancel out the little arguments that come up-ESPECIALLY if her love language really is words of affirmation. The fights will effect her even more than they would someone else.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

lifeisnotsogood said:


> I like that. Haven't presented that option before. Next time the opportunity presents itself I will ask her that.


I would wait on that atm. You sent her a loving email, and although her verbal response was short, she DID give you some actions once you came home from work. She cuddled, held your hair, kissed and when you made love, kissed more than usual, you said. In such a short time, that's a HUGE change. She's making efforts to improve. 

Honestly, try sending her another nice email, or write her a love letter about some more qualities you like about her as a person-find little details, even. Maybe bring up good memories about your earlier years of marriage/dating relationship and qualities that she had then that you loved. See what this does in her reactions towards you. 

Bringing up the importance of sex yet again isn't going to do anything. You've said it so many times before. Moreover, saying asking if she can get it elsewhere is _NOT_ going to help at this point. If she wasn't trying at all, it might be good to say. But not while she's making improvements. As a woman, if my husband ever said that to me, I would think he only wanted me because of my vagina. 

Let me explain it this way: you want meaningful, passionate sex with your wife. You want to feel that she desires you. You want to feel that she loves you like she did when you were younger. This is a healthy desire, and you have every right to feel this from your wife. 

At the same time, she wants to feel appreciated and loved outside of the bedroom. If you've tried helping around the house and it hasn't helped, then acts of service isn't something that speaks to her. If she has responded positively to these words in your email(notice that they said nothing sexual) then you should continue to speak positively to her. Stop mentioning the sex for now. Maybe take a week and don't talk about it, unless she brings it up(like when sex is scheduled). Give her plenty of positive affirmation. After sex, tell her how much you love being intimate with her-in the bedroom, and outside of it. Reaffirm her as a wife, a mother and a woman. See if there are any other changes that occur from that. 

Women who are empty emotionally are usually defensive and bitter. She responded well to this email, that's a GREAT sign. Keep at it, and see how she reacts.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

lifeisnotsogood said:


> I'm not sure what it could be. She tells me over and over that she's just not into sex and only does it for me. She has told me that she has gotten really mad in the past when she said she had a headache and I still had sex with her. I wouldn't have done that if she didn't pick the days and the times. It's like if you had a desert in the fridge and you were thinking about it all day because today is the day you get to eat it. You just can't wait until you get home so you could devour it. Then you get home, open the fridge and it's gone. what a disappointment. That's what I feel like when she tells me she has a headache, so of course I'm still going to have sex with her if she says, "I have a headache, but if you still want to, we can." I'm guessing she could have a little resentment over that. The solution is, don't put me on a schedule or turn me down every single time I ask that way I'll know that if you have a headache today, at least tomorrow is a possibility.


Dude, have a little self respect!!


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Is there a biflexibous?


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Have you expressed any of your concerns to her? I mean, women can be cruel and manipulative some times but one thing we can't do is a read a man's mind. And by express, I mean tell her honestly and truthfully how her detachment makes you feel; the loneliness, the distrust, the fear...all of it. And DON'T APOLOGIZE FOR ANY OF IT. Don't let her bring it back on you. By apologizing for it you're confirming to her that this is your issue, not hers.
> 
> While there's nothing wrong with needing and wanting your wife, I think if you stood up and expressed your feelings without looking weak, that she might see things differently. I'm not saying you are weak, but, imo, that's what SHE thinks of you. I have known some weak men in my life and I NEVER dated them, I never flirted with them, and I was never attracted to them. If you were to tell your wife all of your feelings and fears without apologizing for ANYTHING, no matter how angry she gets, then maybe she'll finally start to see that she is causing a lot of pain for you.
> 
> Really, stand up for yourself. And if that doesn't work, I think you should try pulling away from her. Try showing her that you're _not needy_, that you can totally live without her, even if you don't feel like you can. She sounds like a woman who LOVES control, and will do or say anything to be in control. Take that control away from her and see what happens. Cause, honestly, there are plenty of women who live to please their husbands and adore them above everyone else. You don't deserve to live like this.


I have expressed my insecure feelings, but not on this occasion. It's not like I can say, "Honey, why do you want to leave the house alone?" Her response would most likely be, "it's faster if I don't have to unload and chase the kids around the store. Why? Don't you trust me?" Then what? I wouldn't know what to say from there. And your right. I shouldn't apologize, but I find myself doing it all the time. I end up feeling bad that I'm having these trust issues and apologize about everything. I wan to show her that I'm not needy, but I don't want to go without sex for a long period of time just to prove it. She probably wouldn't think anything is wrong and would be glad I was leaving her alone.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> You can't expect a 180 degree change over night. Take the kissing and cuddling as a VERY good sign for now. And, if I were you, I wouldn't make the positive affirmation an "occasional" thing. Usually love languages need to be spoken daily, in some way. Especially when a couple is working through issues, the talk you do have can be very negative. For her, it's going to talk a lot of positive affirmation from you to really cancel out the little arguments that come up-ESPECIALLY if her love language really is words of affirmation. The fights will effect her even more than they would someone else.


In therapy she said she felt she was the only one needing to make a change and it was all dependent on her. I asked what I could do different to make a positive change as well and she said, "Be patient and compromise." I believe she was referring to the sex part, so I said, "You want sex zero days per week and I want sex 7 days per week, so a compromise would be higher than it is now, which is 2 days per week." That didn't go over well either.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> I would wait on that atm. You sent her a loving email, and although her verbal response was short, she DID give you some actions once you came home from work. She cuddled, held your hair, kissed and when you made love, kissed more than usual, you said. In such a short time, that's a HUGE change. She's making efforts to improve.
> 
> Honestly, try sending her another nice email, or write her a love letter about some more qualities you like about her as a person-find little details, even. Maybe bring up good memories about your earlier years of marriage/dating relationship and qualities that she had then that you loved. See what this does in her reactions towards you.
> 
> ...


I do tell her I notice all of her efforts, even if they are small ones. I don't want her to be discouraged and revert back to the way it was a few months ago. Things are not where I want them to be, but they are a whole lot better than they were. Now, if I could just get her to increase the amount of sexual encounters we have. That would be great.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

warlock07 said:


> Dude, have a little self respect!!


What would you do in my situation? Pointing out the obvious doesn't really help me.


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## Sara Ann (Aug 27, 2010)

Haven't posted in a while.

A guy by the name of BigBadWolf, or something like that, had good advice for the men, about being a man and a woman desiring someone. Maybe he has something that you can relate to.

My husband has now gotten good at making me feel desired. In 20 yrs, he never has done this, but now he does this every day - gives me hugs when I come home, squeezes me, grabs my butt, hugs me from behind when I'm doing dishes, etc. That is what I like. I never used to tell him, and he never wanted to do that on his own. Now he loves it. He would change the oil, put the kids to bed, do all the chores, who gives a damn, that does not make we feel desireable or hot. It did keep me from building resentments, so that's something.

There are many reasons she might not want to do it more: low hormones, resentments, feeling pushed and not respecting neediness, being tired, her own views of her body and thinking it's not pretty, who knows. A good therapist would have figured out this issue pretty quickly, helped you get to the root of it. 

Some women will have sex with their husbands even if they don't want to, just because they don't want to be that frigid wife that holds out. But how good is that pity sex going to be?

In a healthy relationship, these things are worked out. Maybe she does it a little more and you get happy with a little less. Stop focusing on how little you get and focus more on other activities that bring you meaning. When you focus on how little you get, you can get into a negative spiral, upsetting yourself and making you less desireable.

If there is anything useful here, take it. If I am way off base, please accept my apology. I don't know you at all, I am just putting out some ideas I have.


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## Rihanna (Jun 5, 2012)

My husband and I had similar problems. I gave myself over entirely to our child. Our sexlife dwindled. We had many resentments between us. We had "maintance" sex and stopped kissing. He had an "emotional" affair via text with a former co-worker. Probably would have gotten worse but realized something wasn't right and he eventually admitted it (when backed into a corner). Anyway, I was immediately turned back onto him, even when I suspected the affair was physical (not sure that would be easier than what we are going through). He and I are sexually very happy, 3 months + later. As we repair our relationship we often try to think of how we could have reconnected without such a devastating problem.

Maybe you should consider leaving. It might shock her into doing whatever it takes to reconnect by giving of herself.

I would have preferred my husband share more about his little secrets, like checking women while commuting to feel attractive again (cause I wasn't meeting that need).

What about your porn? Is there stuff you like but you would be neevous to talk about with her? Something you are afraid will turn her off? Ask her to just be with you at your side when you masturbate & put on something you like. Tell her how sexy you find it. 

Tell her you want to go to a strip club with or without her. Tell her how sexy it would be to see her getting attention from those sexy girls.

Make up your version of this based on your sexuality and marriage. Take risks and be vulnerable. Just sex isn't what you want. It is sexiness. I think she may need that too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Sara Ann said:


> Haven't posted in a while.
> 
> A guy by the name of BigBadWolf, or something like that, had good advice for the men, about being a man and a woman desiring someone. Maybe he has something that you can relate to.
> 
> ...


Her hormone levels were extremely low. She's been taking testosterone. I can also see how being "Needy" can make someone less desirable.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Oh my, very bad day at MC yesterday. I brought up the fact that I snooped because I was feeling her push back as I tried to get more affectionate. I told her in MC that I found all the girl on girl porn and several pairs of sexy G-string panties that I've never seen her ear before (she has said in the past that they are uncomfortable and so she wont wear them), yet she has about 5 pairs now. She said she did not download the porn and the suggested I may have done it. Then she said the only reason she bought the underwear is because if she felt better about herself, she may start wearing them...for me. She then said she has never been disloyal in our marriage and that she was not gay or Bi.

FF to today. We're still not talking. She says I blind-sided and embarrassed her when I accused her of cheating and being a lesbian. She says she needs time to process what just happened.

I had explained that the reason I looked through the closet and drawers is because she had been so detached and unaffectionate, to the point where it scared me. Then, When I found the videos and sexy underwear, I wondered what might be going on as I have never seen her wear them and she has even said they were uncomfortable. Of course I wondered if she may be having an affair, who wouldn't. 

It's as if she had her tubes tied and I was buying condoms...same idea, right? 

I left for the entire day and texted her that I would come home after everyone was in bed, since she needed to be alone to "process" things. 

She texted the following:

We have four kids and you just go off on my own when you need space. I never get that choice. I have told you and I will tell you again. I'm not feeling like hugging or being affectionate...I'm hurt and felt blindsided. If you choose to take my lack of affection as anything other than me needing tome to process these things, it's your deal. I think you need to see a counselor who is just for you, you are depressed an I feel it's completely up to me to fix it and I can't. I have been honest, loyal and the best I would be for you but it wasn't enough to earn your trust or respect.

END


I responded:

First of all I don't need space, I need you.

Being gone is just a way of not being a "Dark Cloud"(she has said I'm like a dark cloud) that hovers over you because if I were home I'd be doing just that.

Your lack of affection has been going on long before this came to light--I'm used to it though because you're not a "Hugger" or "Kisser".

And I don't think I need a counselor. Who wouldn't be depressed if their spouse didn't want to hug or kiss them and wanted nothing to do with them in the bedroom. Yeah, I'm depressed about that, and yes, you are the only one who can change that. there's nothing I can do to make you want me. I've tried everything from telling you how beautiful you are, to doing dishes, giving you massages, playing with the kids more, etc. I don't know what else to do or I would do it.I would do anything.

About 20 minutes later I send her a photo of her and tell her, "I stared at this photo of you off and on all day. I like this photo.
END


She responds

Well I am not ready for a discussion, I'm being honest about that. Some people deal with pain and feelings differently, this is how I deal because I cant just take off on everyone. Your message above validates my concerns that it's all up to me and how much physical affection I give you. There are so many other great things going on in life and I feel like you are just stuck on focusing on this. That is why I suggested a counselor but of course you will make that decision there. You have never been so depressed and even though I think it's more than just me (Finances, etc.), you don't see it. I don't like NEVER being enough, I deserve to be that person who brings joy to my husband, not anxiety and disappointment, because I know whole-heartlessly(i think she meant Heartily) I am doing all I can to work on everything. It's just not good enough--not fast enough for you.

END


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## Cyclist (Aug 22, 2012)

Your in a tough situation my friend and I feel for you.

While no relationship is perfect from both sides there is something deeper here. She either resents staying at home and taking care of kids all day and a lack of freedom or something similar. Maybe setting up a moms day out once a week or something would help?
Let her get a cup of coffee or read a book in peace and relax. 

The lack of affection towards you is a very tough thing to take. Do your best with the MC and stick to some sort of plan to try and make it better. Weigh out all your options before you ever give up. Hopefully she will come along and things will get better

all the best to you


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

So you brought up the porn videos you found hidden in her closet and she accused you of "downloading" them? How do you download a video that can be stashed in the closet? You should have showed her the boxes and asked how you can download that?

The other question is, so if she doesn't like girl-on-girl porn, who does? You aren't watching them, right? Something is still not adding up here.

She keep deflecting everything back on to you. Notice that?

Take your time but keep digging. There has GOT to be something going on here.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

sandc said:


> So you brought up the porn videos you found hidden in her closet and she accused you of "downloading" them? How do you download a video that can be stashed in the closet? You should have showed her the boxes and asked how you can download that?
> 
> The other question is, so if she doesn't like girl-on-girl porn, who does? You aren't watching them, right? Something is still not adding up here.
> 
> ...


I was not completely satisfied by her response. Especially the underwear. I could see buying one or two pairs to wear when you feel better about yourself, but not five. I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop at this point.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Cyclist said:


> Your in a tough situation my friend and I feel for you.
> 
> While no relationship is perfect from both sides there is something deeper here. She either resents staying at home and taking care of kids all day and a lack of freedom or something similar. Maybe setting up a moms day out once a week or something would help?
> Let her get a cup of coffee or read a book in peace and relax.
> ...


I am still trying. i'll keep trying until it's obvious there is nothing to hold on to.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

So ever since I dropped the bomb on Monday, the wife won't talk to me. Well, I take that back. She will only say what she has to because we have kids and life goes on no matter what is going on between us. I did get a hug yesterday, so she may be getting over the initial shock. I am taking it one day at a time now. I almost wish I hadn't brought it up at the MC. It didn't get me anywhere and I was not confident in the response anyway.


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## Sara Ann (Aug 27, 2010)

She sounds defensive, and you sound so focused on getting something from her. What does the MC say?

As far as the affection thing, have you guys ever considered just doing a foot massage or back stroking/tickling? Physical desire can start from being innocently tickled. Or at least, it starts the affection and enjoyment of being together.

Do you guys like each other enough to do a 30 second hug? I found that in a marriage book and it melts hearts! Try it, it's really good. You have to stand up and do it for 30 seconds.


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## unx3 (Aug 25, 2012)

I was reading this and it sounded so much like my own situation except that I only had sex once a week. I am (or was) able to please her with a massager but now she does it and I can only watch. So I am out of that picture. There is and never has been oral sex. I have given her oral sex but never received any from her. Now there is no oral sex period. My wife also does not watch porn at all. In a way we are in the same boat though.


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## brendan (Jun 1, 2011)

good on you for trying MC. I did the same for about 7 sessions before it ended witht he wife of only 18 months.

sex was and issue, not the only one but a major one, i also get confused why the ex wife use to always talk about sex and lesbian sex with the girls but would never say anything about sex with me.

dont want to sound up myself, i have a good body and can pick up on any given weekend if i wanted too, but didnt and wouldnt. still have concerns she is very bi curious, although she would never let me go down on her or she wouldnt give me oral sex. so who knows.

since seperation ive been speaking to other girls, like and work and friends more openly and its so refreshing how girls these days talk so open. But what i did realise, that the majority of them have lesbian fantasies and are curious to girls.

think my ex wife is and wish she would just admit it


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Sara Ann said:


> She sounds defensive, and you sound so focused on getting something from her. What does the MC say?
> 
> As far as the affection thing, have you guys ever considered just doing a foot massage or back stroking/tickling? Physical desire can start from being innocently tickled. Or at least, it starts the affection and enjoyment of being together.
> 
> Do you guys like each other enough to do a 30 second hug? I found that in a marriage book and it melts hearts! Try it, it's really good. You have to stand up and do it for 30 seconds.


I do want something from her. I want affection, desire, intimacy, etc. And she was defensive, mostly because she was blind-sided I guess.

I have given her every type of massage in hope of initiating some intimacy, but of course that didn't work. 

We are not doing anything lately. A 30-second hug is out of the question.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

unx3 said:


> I was reading this and it sounded so much like my own situation except that I only had sex once a week. I am (or was) able to please her with a massager but now she does it and I can only watch. So I am out of that picture. There is and never has been oral sex. I have given her oral sex but never received any from her. Now there is no oral sex period. My wife also does not watch porn at all. In a way we are in the same boat though.


I know. Doesn't this suck eggs? I'm telling you, I feel like giving up sometimes.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

brendan said:


> good on you for trying MC. I did the same for about 7 sessions before it ended witht he wife of only 18 months.
> 
> sex was and issue, not the only one but a major one, i also get confused why the ex wife use to always talk about sex and lesbian sex with the girls but would never say anything about sex with me.
> 
> ...


It's nice you are able to move on, but we have several kids and I have to think of them too. I owe it to them, including my wife, to do everything I can to improve this marriage. If ultimately we remain in the same place, I may have to let go and move on.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

So it's been over a week since I dropped the bomb at MC. She's still in that place where she says,"I need space," which includes not having sex or affection of any type. We are pretty much just co-existing and going on with life. How perfect it must be for her. She gets mad and then gets to pull away without feeling guilty about it. I have broken down twice in front of her when we tried talking about it. She gave me a courtesy hug, but it was cold. It felt as though she did it out of obligation.

She has told a couple of friends about our situation, i'm guessing to seek confirmation that what she is doing is okay. She told them of the the safe deposit box (which I started about a year ago and hid $5000, when I thought she was out of love), the snooping in her drawers (where I found the G-string underwear that I have never seen), etc. She told them I accused her of having an affair and being gay. I understand needing to talk to someone, but keep it limited. Now I have to look at these people in the future and know that they are aware of my marital issues. I don't even want to talk to these people anymore.

So this all started with me requesting marriage counseling because of her lack of affection and sex with me and now it's turned to me fighting to salvage what I have left. I can't believe how the tables turned so quickly. Everything i did was from fear. I tried explaining that to her, but she still needs her "space." I wrote her a letter accepting responsibility for my actions and apologized for going that level. She responded, stating she still loved me and wanted to work it out, but still needed her space.

I wonder, when she doesn't feel she needs space anymore, will the original reasons for MC be non-existent, or will I be the same unhappy person I was before? Then what will I do? Do I continue with MC to fix those issues, or move on with separation and ultimate file for "D"? I will be completely devastated not seeing my kids everyday and I would be pretty much broke too. Between the alimony and Child support, I would barely be able to make my car payment and pay for gas. I would have to move back in with my parents...and I'm over 40. How ridiculous and embarrassing that would be. What a sh$#%y position to be in.

Oh, and the counselor and her suggesting I go to individual counseling so I could learn how to react to my feelings of insecurity in the future. So that I'm not so destructive in the future. When I asked how I could approach such a thing in the future, my wife suggested that I just ask her. Really? lets see...I should say something like, "Honey, I'm feeling like you are distant, unaffectionate, and when I try to bring up those feelings, you say that I'm being paranoid. So are you having an affair?" I don't think someone who is having an affair would respond with the truth.

I am so stuck and don't know how to proceed.

I have occupied my time by running a lot and getting back into shape. I'm only 10-15 lbs overweight, but I won't be soon.


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## Sara Ann (Aug 27, 2010)

Is the MC helping you move forward? Not all MC are equally good. She sounds resentful, not wanting to get close. Might not all be your fault.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Sara Ann said:


> Is the MC helping you move forward? Not all MC are equally good. She sounds resentful, not wanting to get close. Might not all be your fault.


I think it allowed me to air my issues, but ultimately I'm in a worse situation for it. I knew telling her about snooping through her stuff would create issues and it did.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

Have you asked her point blank if she'd rather be divorced? Sometimes that can shake up an obstinate spouse.


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## Sara Ann (Aug 27, 2010)

Maybe your wife is like me, she just likes oral and gets turned on seeing oral done on a woman. That doesn't make me a lesbian. Do you guys ever talk about your arousals, what really arouses you? Maybe down the road, when she cools off.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

lifeisnotsogood said:


> Her hormone levels were extremely low. She's been taking testosterone. I can also see how being "Needy" can make someone less desirable.


Test, huh? Her libido is through the roof, so you should be the beneficiary. Since you're not, you need to find out who is. 

Shaggy told you to get two VARs; what did they reveal?

Did you finish reading MMSL yet? How's the MAP working out for you?

After reading your whole thread, I'm guessing you did none of the above.

Here's another piece of advice for you to ignore, put a GPS on her car.

I'd bet $100 your wife is getting her ashes hauled somewhere.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Her reaction to your trying to understand the problems doesn't seem like someone who is trying to find common ground.

It is possibly someone who is worried you are getting to close to sonething she wants to protect.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Her needing space and having a bunch of new g strings but having no interest in sex really doesn't add up to anything good.

Really get those VARs and GPS deployed if you want to find out what is going on.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

sandc said:


> Have you asked her point blank if she'd rather be divorced? Sometimes that can shake up an obstinate spouse.


Yes, I've asked her that, even recently. She says she loves me and want to be together, but she feels betrayed and needs space to deal with my destructive actions.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Sara Ann said:


> Maybe your wife is like me, she just likes oral and gets turned on seeing oral done on a woman. That doesn't make me a lesbian. Do you guys ever talk about your arousals, what really arouses you? Maybe down the road, when she cools off.


yeah, i'm thinking that too. Several women have responded saying similar things. I guess that part is not so bad, but now I'm not getting any affections whatsoever. Pleasuring myself is not that enjoyable, but I guess I'll need to keep doing that for a while.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> Test, huh? Her libido is through the roof, so you should be the beneficiary. Since you're not, you need to find out who is.
> 
> Shaggy told you to get two VARs; what did they reveal?
> 
> ...


I'm not using any VAR's. Could you imagine where I would be if she found one of those. I'm pretty sure i'd be living at my parents house. She needs time to sort out the other "destructive" things i've done, like the safe deposit box she discovered with 5k and the snooping around in her personal stuff. They didn't have the book at my local library. I need to order it from Amazon I guess. I wasn't even thinking about the book after she demanded her "space".


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> Her reaction to your trying to understand the problems doesn't seem like someone who is trying to find common ground.
> 
> It is possibly someone who is worried you are getting to close to sonething she wants to protect.


That would be devastating.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> Her needing space and having a bunch of new g strings but having no interest in sex really doesn't add up to anything good.
> 
> Really get those VARs and GPS deployed if you want to find out what is going on.


It seems like a risky avenue that could lead to instant divorce.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

lifeisnotsogood said:


> I'm not using any VAR's. Could you imagine where I would be if she found one of those. I'm pretty sure i'd be living at my parents house.


Wrong answer. If she gets pissed, she can go somewhere else. Who's the man in this family? She's got more testosterone than you do. No wonder she gets turned on by ***** action. Those girls have more male animal magnetism than you do.

Look, that's overstated, but not by much. You're spraying Omega Male scent all over the house. Have you ever read Roissy?



lifeisnotsogood said:


> She needs time to sort out the other "destructive" things i've done, like the safe deposit box she discovered with 5k and the snooping around in her personal stuff.


Huh? You're the man, I think, that means you do whatever the hell you want with your money. You're married, she doesn't get privacy so long as she has the privilege of remaining a member of your harem.



lifeisnotsogood said:


> They didn't have the book at my local library. I need to order it from Amazon I guess. I wasn't even thinking about the book after she demanded her "space".


She needs space from you because she's in the process of transferring her sexual loyalty to somebody else. You need to go Sam Spade on her ass. Quit talking about the relationship. Drop the MC stuff. Investigate. Read MMSL. Download it and read it tonight. Start reading up on Roissy's website. Find out where you are on the SocioSexual Hierarchy.


This is not about what you do or don't do as far as doing stuff like spending time with the kids or kissing her ass. It's about projecting male animal magnetism. You've lost it somewhere along the way. This sounds whacked, but it's all the truth. Women are sexually responding to clues from the Limbic system, not the cortex. Stop trying to reason with her, it's not what she will respond to. Do get ripped, start bodybuilding in the morning. Get a 32 waist and a minimum 44 chest. Change your wardrobe. Dress 10 years younger and 20K higher salary in appearance. Go out at night wearing a suit without explanation. You must start unbalancing her little world where you are the provider sexless drone and she gets her sexual jollies elsewhere, which I guarantee you little testosterone mamasan is doing just that.

Women don't really want to talk about relationships with men. They want to be taken. I know you don't believe it because you have clearly bought into the current "system." The fact is, talk and counseling won't get you anything but a divorce. Turning into a cave man will get your wife back. Maybe.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

lifeisnotsogood said:


> It seems like a risky avenue that could lead to instant divorce.


As the young captain once said, "you've got to be willing to burn the village if you want to save it."

Friend, it's a war you're losing and you don't even know you're fighting one. Get your head out of your ass.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

lifeisnotsogood said:


> That would be devastating.


What's more devastating is you standing by and allowing all this to happen without a fight. 

Do you have a keylogger on her computer?

What phone does she use?

Have you checked her cell for frequent calls to unknown numbers?


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## rigcol (Jul 24, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> Women don't really want to talk about relationships with men. They want to be taken. I know you don't believe it because you have clearly bought into the current "system." The fact is, talk and counseling won't get you anything but a divorce. Turning into a cave man will get your wife back. Maybe.



Wow, Machiavelli. Wow. In a world of political correctness (or the "current system"), I have to say awesome response/ guidance to the OP.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> Wrong answer. If she gets pissed, she can go somewhere else. Who's the man in this family? She's got more testosterone than you do. No wonder she gets turned on by ***** action. Those girls have more male animal magnetism than you do.
> 
> Look, that's overstated, but not by much. You're spraying Omega Male scent all over the house. Have you ever read Roissy?
> 
> ...


I can see the logic in all of this.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> As the young captain once said, "you've got to be willing to burn the village if you want to save it."
> 
> Friend, it's a war you're losing and you don't even know you're fighting one. Get your head out of your ass.


I think there's a lot to be said in this. I have to work on things civilly for my kids sake. They are the innocent victims in all of this. I know I could move on and eventually find someone else, but my kids would be without a father and would grow up in two broken homes.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> What's more devastating is you standing by and allowing all this to happen without a fight.
> 
> Do you have a keylogger on her computer?
> 
> ...


no key logger. i wouldn't know which one to get anyway. There are so many and they pretty much all leave some sort of spam on your computer I think.

She uses an iphone 4

Phone calls- Our phone bill does not detail the numbers called.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

lifeisnotsogood said:


> My wife and I are in our early 40's and we have 3 kids. We've been married for 16+ years and have been struggling in the bedroom for 10-12 years. My wife is just not passionate, affectionate, and has told me on more than one occasion that if she never had sex again in her life, she would be okay with it. Of course hearing this made me uneasy about our relationship.
> 
> We have sex about twice a week and she is always dreading it. Also, during sex, she would only want to do the missionary position. No kissing during sex, no foreplay, just straight to the point with lube and I have to go get ready so she can do it between commercials. I accepted this because I was at least getting something, but I really wanted the passion, *I wanted to be desirable to her.* I'm an attractive man (I think) and in decent shape, maybe 10 lbs overweight, so that is not the issue. I'm very clean and shower 2 times a day, once in the morning before work and again before I go to bed, so that shouldn't be an issue either. When I ask my wife the the problem is. Why there's no foreplay, she says it tickles her boobs when I kiss them, or that she not in the mood for oral, ever really. Then she reminds me that getting it twice a week is better than a lot of her friends and that I should be happy.
> 
> ...


Haven't read the entire thread yet. 

Still, no, I don't have any interest in girl/girl interactions.

Quite honestly I don't get turned on by porn, only the real thing. 

I think she may be outright lesbian and that is why she doesn't like foreplay. 

One complaint among women is lack of foreplay because that means the man is a wham bam thank you mam sort of guy. 

Most woman want kissing and cuddling and foreplay. 

if you hadn't found the girl/girl stuff, I would say she was simply having an affair and being faithful to the other man by not having quality sex with you.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

lifeisnotsogood said:


> I think there's a lot to be said in this. I have to work on things civilly for my kids sake. They are the innocent victims in all of this. I know I could move on and eventually find someone else, but my kids would be without a father and would grow up in two broken homes.


Your only hope is attract your wife to you by slipping away from her. Wives lose interest in their husbands sexually at about year 4-7 (7 year itch). It's a long, slow process of devaluation. 

Ever heard of a fitness test (aka sh!t test)? You fail those and she starts to lose interest in you. She looks at how other women respond to you. If that don't show interest, she loses a little interest, too. Women take their cues on men from other women. Your wife won't fvck you, in large part because she's decided your unfvckable; she thinks you'd have to pay cash to get a woman. I'm not joking, here. You have to upend that perception. 

The men who don't have to worry about 7 year itch are the men whose wives know they can get another woman in five minutes. Even if that's not true, you need to act like it's true, and start working to make it true. In the process, you may attract your wife back to you. Here's the link to Roissy. Go there and start reading.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Also, why is your wife taking testosterone if she is not interested in sex with you.

Testosterone is often prescribed to women with low libido. It will sometimes increase sex drive, but like viagra it does not always work as prescribed.

Testosterone can also make a women's hair fall out and she can grow a moustache, and chin hair. So a lot of doctors will not prescribe it for women. 

Why is your wife on this?


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> Haven't read the entire thread yet.
> 
> Still, no, I don't have any interest in girl/girl interactions.
> 
> ...


My wife was a porn watcher when we met and she wasn't in a relationship. I know for a fact she watched ****** stuff, but she also liked the hetero closeups of the guy banging away. She also isn't into foreplay. She was high testosterone in those days and had a semi-male approach to sex. Since OP's wife is on Testosterone, it sounds pretty familiar to me. OP's wife has at least one male playmate, maybe a swinging couple. Who knows what, until OP investigates.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> Also, why is your wife taking testosterone if she is not interested in sex with you.


Women who have gone through menopause, surgical menopause (no ovaries), or just have low testosterone levels will supplement. It affects a lot more than just libido; ability to reason, energy, lean body mass, abdominal fat.



Sara8 said:


> Testosterone is often prescribed to women with low libido. It will sometimes increase sex drive, but like viagra it does not always work as prescribed.


In my experience with female clients taking test under medical supervision and female bodybuilders I have known over the years, the female libido invariably goes through the roof. The bodybuilders, on massive doses of AAS, pretty much become insatiable and kinky. One of my clients, a member of the church choir whose medically prescribed test dosage was out of whack, had to fight an overwhelming urge to pick up a stranger walking down the street.



Sara8 said:


> Testosterone can also make a women's hair fall out and she can grow a moustache, and chin hair. So a lot of doctors will not prescribe it for women.


"A lot of doctors" are idiots. The dosages for male pattern baldness and facial hair are enormous body builder doses. This was the attitude twenty years ago.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> Haven't read the entire thread yet.
> 
> Still, no, I don't have any interest in girl/girl interactions.
> 
> ...


You should read the entire thread. It gets worse.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

lifeisnotsogood said:


> I think there's a lot to be said in this. I have to work on things* civilly* for my kids sake. They are the innocent victims in all of this. I know I could move on and eventually find someone else, but my kids would be without a father and would grow up in two broken homes.


You mean Civil Divorce? That's where you heading unless you get your balls back out of your wife's purse.

I'm not telling you to be uncivil, just start acting like the man and you may stop this before your wife gets so contemptuous of you that she starts going to GNO or having her BF pick her up at the house. Your fear of learning the facts are heading you straight to Family Court.

Get those VARs and attach one to the bottom of your wife's car seat with heavy velcro. Within a month, you'll know what you're up against.

Does she synch the iPhone to iTunes? You may be able to recover some data there. You can also get a iphone spy stick. Does she keep the phone close at hand with a password on it?

Get the Effin' GPS on her car.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> "A lot of doctors" are idiots. The dosages for male pattern baldness and facial hair are enormous body builder doses. This was the attitude twenty years ago.


You won't get any argument about that from me. 

My brother is a cardio thoracic surgeon, a good one, and he says the same. 

I have caught too many docs in too many errors or outdated techniques to trust just any doctor. 

Anyway, yes, the dosage should be a physiological replacement dose, and it should only be prescribed if a person is low on the natural level of testosterone, 

And, yes, women have testosterone. 

And, an 80 year old man has a higher estrogen level than a 80 year old women in some cases. 

Anything higher than an age appropriate physiological replacement dose can and will backfire on the lady.


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## Kari (Feb 17, 2012)

Lifeisnotsogood, you didn't do ANYTHING wrong. STOP apologizing to your wife. The reason you snooped is that your gut told you something was wrong, and your gut was right. I'm sorry to say but the '5 new pairs of G string underwear' were not bought for you. It isn't the slightest bit plausible. Your W isn't interested sexually in you right now even though she is taking testosterone. She is interested in someone else (might be a male or a female) and it has very likely already progressed to a PA (no new sexy underwear would be needed if it were just an online EA). 

She is just gaslighting you and deflecting, and is succeeding in making you think it is you who are the problem. The 'I need space' is the famous line used by someone who is still cheating along with 'I love you but am not in love with you'. Please start reading the 'Coping With Infidelity' forum to figure out what to do next. You need to speak with a lawyer and prepare for the worst.

Your marriage is at risk but it is not because of your snooping. It was ALREADY in serious danger because of the affair but you just didn't know it. You still seem in denial. Even if you want to reconcile, it's not going to happen until the affair ends, and your wife may be planning on leaving you very soon as soon as her exit strategy is in place.

You should be using VARs and keyloggers to collect evidence. It might help you avoid alimony (or pay less) if there is a divorce, plus if she wants to separate, you shouldn't move to your parents, she should move out. A lawyer can help ensure this, but you'll need solid evidence of her affair.

I think your only hope of getting your wife to end the affair is 1) implement the MMSL and MAP plan, and at the same time 2) getting the solid proof via the VAR, GPS, and keylogger so she will be forced to admit the affair and talk honestly about it.

The wool is still over your eyes. Please read the CWI forum.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> Also, why is your wife taking testosterone if she is not interested in sex with you.
> 
> Testosterone is often prescribed to women with low libido. It will sometimes increase sex drive, but like viagra it does not always work as prescribed.
> 
> ...


When I told her I was not happy with our sex life she said she would see the doctor to find out why she's not really into sex. She went to the doctor and he did some blood work. It showed she was low and he (Dr.) believed it would help her libido. She started the testosterone to see if it would improve her libido, but so far it has not helped.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

So last week when I broke the news to her at MC, telling her I had gone through her drawers and discovered the panties and girl on girl porn, sh stopped talking to me saying I violated her trust. She equated that breach of trust to cheating. I'm not sure how closely related they are, but to me it seemed quite different. I sent her a letter after three days of barely acknowledging each other at home. here is the letter I sent.


Dear (Wife),

I’ve been thinking a lot about where we are right now, and I realize I have been very selfish over the last several months. It was that selfishness that led me to the paranoia, which ultimately set me on the path of self destruction. I know that my behavior damaged our relationship, but I pray it has not crossed through the point of no return.

I want you to know, and I’ve told you before, “I love you for all the reasons other than sex.” I understand you have a low sex drive and I clearly have a high one, but I WILL NOT let sex be the reason our marriage fails. I don’t know why I could only focus on that part of our relationship for the last several months. I know you love me. You tell me that all the time. You have never given me a reason to doubt your loyalty, but I have given you several reasons to doubt mine. I have failed you as a husband; I’m truly sorry for that. 

I know you’ve lost a lot of trust and respect for me recently and it’s well deserved. My behavior during that time was completely inappropriate. I want to earn your trust back. I know it will take some time, but I am prepared for that. I will do whatever is necessary to make that happen. I don’t need to lose everything to discover all the good things I had. 

We have a great family, which I’ve been neglecting lately; that’s going to change. I will still obviously have to do overtime, but I will make every effort to spend more “quality time” with our family instead of sitting in front of the television or computer. 

I’ll try not to be a “dark could” around you during this time. It will be difficult, but I’ll do my best. I certainly hope you can spare a few hugs and kisses of reassurance during this process, but if you can’t I’ll just have to understand. I’ll try not to be so emotional around you, and I’ll try to keep my “breakdowns” private. You witnessed one or two, but there have been a lot lately and I’m sure there will be more to come.

I know when and if things get better and you feel confident in us, you will let me know in your own way, and I promise you, the next time we are intimate, it will be because you initiated it, not because I’ve begged or guilted you into it. I will cherish that moment however far away it may be. I want to be that person that tells others, “Marriage is a lot of work, but it’s worth it in the end.” I want to grow old with you. When we’re old, I want to drive you to Starbucks in an old-person car (Cadillac) and relive all of our great life experiences with our family, of course (name of disabled child) will be with us, but that’s good. We’ll just need to remember to bring Juice, bananas, and crackers.

I love you so much and I cannot imagine life without you and our children. I am here for the long haul, however long that is.

Love,

(me)


She responded as follows:

First, thank you for taking the time to write your feelings down and express where you are with everything. Reading that letter reminded me of the husband I knew...the one I married. Things are rough right now, I am in a space I have never been before, nor thought I would be, but knowing that the man I thought I would be standing with forever is still in there somewhere is huge. Frankly, we have too much invested in our family and life to not give our marriage what it deserves, even if it means going through sadness and unknown territory.

Trust is a hard thing to deal with...when breached it leaves me wondering if it will happen again, and without trust I dont know what to do. That is why I likened it to an affair...its not the ACTION, its the breach of trust...whatever it was. However, I also know the person I married, and I really want to believe the trust can be re-gained. It does, however, take time and patience. That is a very hard thing for you to understand because I know you are feeling like you are losing me and you want to pull me in closer. 

To be clear, like I have said before, I love you. That means more than just three words put together. It means I agreed to work on things like this when we took our vows fourteen years ago, for better or worse. 

I am not saying that I am not hurt. I still feel like I am getting back up from the ground from being knocked down by one sucker-punch after another. I know that doesn’t make you feel good, but I am being honest with you when I say I still have anger. That is where the whole "it takes time" part comes in. I am not a woman who reacts briskly and says "forget it" and disregards all the good things we still have together. I am one who values what we have built together, so I plan on being here and working things through. 

As we have said in the past, I am far from perfect too. I wish I could fix myself enough to make me the perfect person for you-especially romantically, but I am afraid that...the way things were going these past couple months, it was only becoming a harder and more unreachable goal. I guess I also have some fears deeply rooted in my childhood experiences. My mom was always the damsel in distress, dependent on the man---and a poor, desperate woman without one. I couldn’t save her, and vowed to never let myself become dependent on a man. Yes, I could be a single parent, I know about spousal support, child support, and all those other things that some other woman (including my friends) find "easy" about separation and divorce. I don’t. I value having a solid marriage -built on respect and loyalty- and a loving family. I value giving my children a two-parent home. But I can not do it at the expense of my own happiness, and that is what I feared was happening. I was just not measuring up, over and over, and not being trusted. And then, when things started to look better, I found out that you had given up on us over a year ago--made financial plans and who knows what other plans, without even telling me. The fact that I was home saving pennies and changing diapers while you worked overtime to "just make ends meet" put me in a place to see what a single parent was like. Its hard, but I could do it. However, I REALLY, REALLY do not want to do it. Its just not what is best for the kids...and I feel like we should be together. 

I REALLY, REALLY do love you. And I believe what you say when you tell me you love me too and you will work on what the issues are. I know you want me to be close to you right now to offer reassurance, physically, but I just can’t. It’s not a power-play, I promise. It’s the furthest thing from it. Those lacey underwear you saw when going through my drawers where meant for you, plain and simple. My body just wasn’t at the point where I wanted to wear them, so that is why you never saw them. There has never ever been the remote thought of anyone else. That is a promise. 

I also really appreciate you finally acknowledging the role you have been playing in our family life. You sort of checked out and it has, for YEARS, always been up to me to engage in family things. Sure, if I nagged enough you would pick things up for a month or so, but it would always fizzle. I want you to WANT to be that dad who chooses his kids over a nap, over TV. They are growing too fast and soon won’t want much to do with us. I admit, I need to prioritize when I am on the computer too....so I am not saying I am the greatest in that area either. I will work on that. It IS harder, when all kids are home, to find something to do other than TV because it seems to occupy them so well, but I remind myself that we are here to enjoy them, not just have them coexist with us. I know that you will still need to work overtime, so I don’t want to sound like that is part of it, but maybe the time we DO have together can be better spent. I liked the times you were taking each of them on a "dad and me" date. Those are the moments that really speak to me about who you are...as a dad and a husband. 

Son is getting in to stuff...as usual. I better go save our house before it collapses around me. 


I have faith in you, and in us. 

I love you.



So, I think she is being genuine and I want to give her some time before I do anything outrageous.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Kari said:


> Lifeisnotsogood, you didn't do ANYTHING wrong. STOP apologizing to your wife. The reason you snooped is that your gut told you something was wrong, and your gut was right. I'm sorry to say but the '5 new pairs of G string underwear' were not bought for you. It isn't the slightest bit plausible. Your W isn't interested sexually in you right now even though she is taking testosterone. She is interested in someone else (might be a male or a female) and it has very likely already progressed to a PA (no new sexy underwear would be needed if it were just an online EA).
> 
> She is just gaslighting you and deflecting, and is succeeding in making you think it is you who are the problem. The 'I need space' is the famous line used by someone who is still cheating along with 'I love you but am not in love with you'. Please start reading the 'Coping With Infidelity' forum to figure out what to do next. You need to speak with a lawyer and prepare for the worst.
> 
> ...


It's funny, when I read someone else's post I can usually figure out what is going on by what they say things, yet I cannot see what's going on in mine. Am I blinded by denial?


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> You won't get any argument about that from me.
> 
> My brother is a cardio thoracic surgeon, a good one, and he says the same.
> 
> ...


I think my estrogen level must be high because i'm acting like a Bi&&%.


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## Kari (Feb 17, 2012)

rigcol said:


> Wow, Machiavelli. Wow. In a world of political correctness (or the "current system"), I have to say awesome response/ guidance to the OP.


As a woman (and a staunch feminist), I agree with Machiavelli and with the author of MMSL that strong male behavior is what attracts me. I don't feel 'politically incorrect' in saying that what the MMSL book says is true for me - as a feminist I believe women shouldn't have to suppress their genuine feelings or turn ons. There's nothing unnatural about being turned on by strong dominant men as long as they are evolved cavemen that treat you with respect and love, not treating you as a doormat or with abuse or taking you for granted. In other words, I prefer my man to be a leader and dominant, but he still had better evolved enough to be in favor of equal job opportunity and equal pay for women or he would be too Neanderthal for me (I prefer a ****-sapien caveman, or at least a Cro-Magnon). 

The un-self-confident way you act would turn me off. Stop acting like you think she is better than you.

However, you can't go caveman as far as sex right now (e.g. you can't 'take her' or drag her by the hair) because of the current bad feelings between you and the fact that her interest is probably in someone else right now. You need to start acting cooler towards her, spend time on your own hobbies, spend more time paying attention to your kids but mostly ignore her, act as though you don't care and are willing to leave her. Be polite and cheerful, but don't pay much attention to her (don't try to kiss her or cuddle). If you mope around, she can use the 'it's his fault since he's depressed excuse'. Sadly, at this point, you probably need to 'take care of your own needs' and eliminate the scheduled sex. The lifeless pity sex you are getting now is not good enough for you and is irritating her.

Being apologetic, begging, sending her love notes, trying to talk about the relationship, being 'wimpy', and dragging her to counseling are all going to turn her off at this point.

She needs to believe you are willing to leave her in order for her to have any chance of trying harder, respecting you, ending her affair, or wanting 'genuine' sex with you. I do think she's having an affair, but for the sake of the kids perhaps wants to keep it hidden and continue the affair, but stay married to you. 

Keep snooping and collecting data, but be very patient and willing to do it for the long term until either you find something totally conclusive or she starts being really more into you and the marriage for several months. Do NOT admit to any more snooping unless you have gotten evidence that she cannot try to explain away. You blew it by telling her about the snooping when you didn't have 'solid' enough proof that she couldn't deny.


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## Kari (Feb 17, 2012)

lifeisnotsogood said:


> I REALLY, REALLY do love you. And I believe what you say when you tell me you love me too and you will work on what the issues are. I know you want me to be close to you right now to offer reassurance, physically, but I just can’t. It’s not a power-play, I promise. It’s the furthest thing from it. Those lacey underwear you saw when going through my drawers where meant for you, plain and simple. My body just wasn’t at the point where I wanted to wear them, so that is why you never saw them. There has never ever been the remote thought of anyone else. That is a promise.
> 
> I also really appreciate you finally acknowledging the role you have been playing in our family life. You sort of checked out and it has, for YEARS, always been up to me to engage in family things. Sure, if I nagged enough you would pick things up for a month or so, but it would always fizzle. I want you to WANT to be that dad who chooses his kids over a nap, over TV. They are growing too fast and soon won’t want much to do with us. I admit, I need to prioritize when I am on the computer too....so I am not saying I am the greatest in that area either. I will work on that. It IS harder, when all kids are home, to find something to do other than TV because it seems to occupy them so well, but I remind myself that we are here to enjoy them, not just have them coexist with us. I know that you will still need to work overtime, so I don’t want to sound like that is part of it, but maybe the time we DO have together can be better spent. I liked the times you were taking each of them on a "dad and me" date. Those are the moments that really speak to me about who you are...as a dad and a husband.
> 
> ...


OK, it is a very good sign that she wrote you this long letter. It doesn't explain the whole puzzle about her lying about the porn and using the toys. 

Remember her actions speak louder than words. 

Since she says she wants to improve the marriage, take her at her word. Do what she asks as far as spending more time with kids, greatly reduce the overtime, do 'dad and me' dates, and do more household chores (as long as they benefit the whole family and not personal favors for her). Show you are a great dad. Be cheerful (but not affectionate) to her. At the same time as being cheerful, pay less attention to her (mostly let her see you paying a lot of attention to the kids only), reduce the temperature, don't approach her to cuddle, eliminate the scheduled sex, and take care of your own sexual needs. Keep up with the working out, lose weight, gain muscle, buy better clothes, follow the MAP and MMSL and 'No More Mr Nice Guy' approach. Do this for several months. Then see if she starts changing. Then you will know if she is just saying all this stuff because they would make her life easier, as opposed to being the real issue. If she still isn't treating you differently after a few months, she can't blame it on the 'don't spend enough time being a dad' or 'you're depressed' excuses.


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## Sara Ann (Aug 27, 2010)

Attraction + obstacles = excitement. Read The Erotic Mind. The obstacle is the gap between people.

When you beg for affection, you ruin the obstacle, or gap. Sparks fly in the gap.

I've read posts on here where people wish they had that same close relationship as their parents, who never fought. I bet those parents had no sex. Two merged people don't have any gap in which sparks can fly. These merged couples feel more like brother and sister or best friends.

Desire is stirred by absence (separate trips), or inability to have someone. My husband is always extra horny for me after we've had a disagreement about something. I like men who are attracted to me, yet aloof.

Focus on yourself and think about what makes you so needy with her.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

That long reply is a "fixing attack." Get you to focus on the dangling carrot while her real attentions are directed elsewhere (cake eating).

Watch for deeds not words.

Start upping your sex rank and start being aloof. 

Meanwhile, investigate.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Kari said:


> As a woman (and a staunch feminist), I agree with Machiavelli and with the author of MMSL that strong male behavior is what attracts me. I don't feel 'politically incorrect' in saying that what the MMSL book says is true for me - as a feminist I believe women shouldn't have to suppress their genuine feelings or turn ons. There's nothing unnatural about being turned on by strong dominant men as long as they are evolved cavemen that treat you with respect and love, not treating you as a doormat or with abuse or taking you for granted. In other words, I prefer my man to be a leader and dominant, but he still had better evolved enough to be in favor of equal job opportunity and equal pay for women or he would be too Neanderthal for me (I prefer a ****-sapien caveman, or at least a Cro-Magnon).
> 
> The un-self-confident way you act would turn me off. Stop acting like you think she is better than you.
> 
> ...


yeah I probably should have waited, but when things eat at you, you have to get them off your chest.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> That long reply is a "fixing attack." Get you to focus on the dangling carrot while her real attentions are directed elsewhere (cake eating).
> 
> Watch for deeds not words.
> 
> ...


have you been through this before. How do you know so much.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Sara Ann said:


> Attraction + obstacles = excitement. Read The Erotic Mind. The obstacle is the gap between people.
> 
> When you beg for affection, you ruin the obstacle, or gap. Sparks fly in the gap.
> 
> ...


I will try to be more distant. I will not beg for sex or affection.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

Kari said:


> OK, it is a very good sign that she wrote you this long letter. It doesn't explain the whole puzzle about her lying about the porn and using the toys.
> 
> Remember her actions speak louder than words.
> 
> Since she says she wants to improve the marriage, take her at her word. Do what she asks as far as spending more time with kids, greatly reduce the overtime, do 'dad and me' dates, and do more household chores (as long as they benefit the whole family and not personal favors for her). Show you are a great dad. Be cheerful (but not affectionate) to her. At the same time as being cheerful, pay less attention to her (mostly let her see you paying a lot of attention to the kids only), reduce the temperature, don't approach her to cuddle, eliminate the scheduled sex, and take care of your own sexual needs. Keep up with the working out, lose weight, gain muscle, buy better clothes, follow the MAP and MMSL and 'No More Mr Nice Guy' approach. Do this for several months. Then see if she starts changing. Then you will know if she is just saying all this stuff because they would make her life easier, as opposed to being the real issue. If she still isn't treating you differently after a few months, she can't blame it on the 'don't spend enough time being a dad' or 'you're depressed' excuses.


I will take this advice.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

lifeisnotsogood said:


> have you been through this before. How do you know so much.


Sort of, with the major difference being it was a LTGF, not a wife who started acting weird. However, this behavior is quite generic. It would be a shock if she were not cheating, since she's flying all the signals.


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## Lifeisnotsogood2 (Sep 1, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> Sort of, with the major difference being it was a LTGF, not a wife who started acting weird. However, this behavior is quite generic. It would be a shock if she were not cheating, since she's flying all the signals.


I have to respond to this from a different user name since I was banned for a month due to an inappropriate post on another thread. I thought it was funny, but the administrator didn't

So I'm wondering if I just think it's better not to know as long as things head in the right direction. After all, I'm not sure I could get past an affair. 

I'm trying the 180 effective today. It's not like I'm getting sex anyway. She's still bitter about my recent actions. I've already started working out (almost a month). Next I think i'll buy some new clothes, and go do some fun things. I've been cordial with her, giving her space, but every now and then I get in a funk and try to reconnect (man I miss her). I'll make sure not to do that in the future. Maybe I'll call a friend while she's there and laugh about funny things. I think making myself less available may help some too. I've been contemplating renting a motel, one of those extended stay motels,where you can get a better rate if you stay a couple of weeks. Not sure about that one though because of the kids. I have no intention of a permanent move, but it may make her miss me.


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## Kari (Feb 17, 2012)

I think it was a BIG mistake to promise her you wouldn't snoop anymore or agree with her that it was 'destructive'. You did it for a very good reason, she is acting like a totally dead fish in bed with you and yet is still using her girl-girl porn and toys and lies about it. She is acting like a person currently having an affair or emotionally attached to someone else, or at the very least ripe to begin an affair. If she were acting as if she were sexually interested in you, you never would have snooped.

I suggest reading 'almostrecovered's thread 'my story' http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/30807-2-years-ago-today.html His wife told him she wasn't cheating because 'she loved him too much to ever do that' so he promised to stop snooping. Then he snooped a bit more anyway and found the affair was real and was still going on. When confronted with evidence she could no longer deny, his wife complained 'but you promised not to snoop anymore!'


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## Kari (Feb 17, 2012)

Lifeisnotsogood2 said:


> I've been cordial with her, giving her space, but every now and then I get in a funk and try to reconnect (man I miss her). I'll make sure not to do that in the future. Maybe I'll call a friend while she's there and laugh about funny things. I think making myself less available may help some too. I've been contemplating renting a motel, one of those extended stay motels,where you can get a better rate if you stay a couple of weeks. Not sure about that one though because of the kids.


No, don't do the motel thing. That seems childish and passive-aggressive. The 180 is a long term plan and will take months to make her truly believe you really don't need her and would be fine living without her someday. Don't think being in a motel for a couple weeks would speed up the process or result in a miracle. Remember you are trying to spend a lot more time with your kids to eliminate one of the excuses she gives you. 

Also, remember that it is your house, and if anyone moves out (if there is a separation), it needs to be her. If she gets mad at you and wants you to sleep on the couch, refuse and tell her to sleep on the couch. This is part of 'manning up'.

Yes, call lots of friends and laugh with them in front of her.

Don't try to reconnect with her by being affectionate, just be cheerful but don't touch her. Be strong. Confide in a male friend who can go out and do something with you when you are tempted. Wait to see if she eventually starts touching you and initiating sex with you, even if it takes months. If she does initiate some physical touch, don't reject her. Kiss her or hug her back in a friendly manner (but only at the level which she does to you first and no more passionate than she is being). Have sex if SHE makes it totally obvious that what she wants but don't act passionate. Act interested and willing but not over-eager. Don't TELL her you are waiting for her to initiate (that sounds childish), just do it. Obviously don't tell her you are 'manning up' or doing the 180 or reading books, and forums etc.. Let her wonder why you are acting differently.

If she is in an ongoing affair, she probably won't initiate though. In that case, being in really good shape, having more hobbies and friends would help you prepare for a better relationship with someone else in the future.


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## Lifeisnotsogood2 (Sep 1, 2012)

Kari said:


> No, don't do the motel thing. That seems childish and passive-aggressive. The 180 is a long term plan and will take months to make her truly believe you really don't need her and would be fine living without her someday. Don't think being in a motel for a couple weeks would speed up the process or result in a miracle. Remember you are trying to spend a lot more time with your kids to eliminate one of the excuses she gives you.
> 
> Also, remember that it is your house, and if anyone moves out (if there is a separation), it needs to be her. If she gets mad at you and wants you to sleep on the couch, refuse and tell her to sleep on the couch. This is part of 'manning up'.
> 
> ...


You're right. The motel thing is out of the question. I think you are right on all accounts. It will be hard not to touch her though, ugh.


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## Lifeisnotsogood2 (Sep 1, 2012)

Kari said:


> I think it was a BIG mistake to promise her you wouldn't snoop anymore or agree with her that it was 'destructive'. You did it for a very good reason, she is acting like a totally dead fish in bed with you and yet is still using her girl-girl porn and toys and lies about it. She is acting like a person currently having an affair or emotionally attached to someone else, or at the very least ripe to begin an affair. If she were acting as if she were sexually interested in you, you never would have snooped.
> 
> I suggest reading 'almostrecovered's thread 'my story' http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/30807-2-years-ago-today.html His wife told him she wasn't cheating because 'she loved him too much to ever do that' so he promised to stop snooping. Then he snooped a bit more anyway and found the affair was real and was still going on. When confronted with evidence she could no longer deny, his wife complained 'but you promised not to snoop anymore!'


You're right. I initially told her I wasn't sorry I snooped, but then I folded...what a chump. I did make that promise though, so I intend to keep it.


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## Sara Ann (Aug 27, 2010)

The biggest anti-aphrodisiac is clinginess and neediness. Confidence is an aphrodisiac.

Work on yourself. I know this won't sound nice, but you sound needy. Fix that. Kari has good advice. Once you man up, you will be ready for her, or whatever else life brings your way next.

Only you know if you have to snoop, but snooping comes from a place of weakness. confident people don't snoop.


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## Lifeisnotsogood2 (Sep 1, 2012)

Sara Ann said:


> The biggest anti-aphrodisiac is clinginess and neediness. Confidence is an aphrodisiac.
> 
> Work on yourself. I know this won't sound nice, but you sound needy. Fix that. Kari has good advice. Once you man up, you will be ready for her, or whatever else life brings your way next.
> 
> Only you know if you have to snoop, but snooping comes from a place of weakness. confident people don't snoop.


You are correct. I am "Needy". I do need to fix that. I feel like I could hug and kiss her all day, pathetic I know.

It's funny though, I never used to be clingy or needy, but when I attempted to get closer to her and display more affection, she pulled away. It scared me.


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## Kari (Feb 17, 2012)

Sara Ann said:


> Only you know if you have to snoop, but snooping comes from a place of weakness. confident people don't snoop.


I agree that confidence is essential. But even if you are the most confident person in the world, you are a damn fool if you don't start snooping if you see a bunch of obvious red flags that usually indicate a person is cheating on you.

It is very weak to confront your partner with only suspicions or circumstantial evidence that they can simply deny or lie about. You would just be handing them ammunition to paint you as being paranoid and depressed and sneaky, and can claim 'they need space' because you hurt them so much via your snooping. It is not weak to confront if you are holding irrefutable evidence of an affair in your hands.

The OP's relationship is hopeless unless his wife stops seeing or being hung up on the other person. I think there is at least an EA going on here.


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## Lifeisnotsogood2 (Sep 1, 2012)

Kari said:


> I agree that confidence is essential. But even if you are the most confident person in the world, you are a damn fool if you don't start snooping if you see a bunch of obvious red flags that usually indicate a person is cheating on you.
> 
> It is very weak to confront your partner with only suspicions or circumstantial evidence that they can simply deny or lie about. You would just be handing them ammunition to paint you as being paranoid and depressed and sneaky, and can claim 'they need space' because you hurt them so much via your snooping. It is not weak to confront if you are holding irrefutable evidence of an affair in your hands.
> 
> The OP's relationship is hopeless unless his wife stops seeing or being hung up on the other person. I think there is at least an EA going on here.


I had nothing when I brought up the snooping, only red flags that were easily refuted. We have not been intimate since that day. She will give me a hug or a kiss (peck) of reassurance, but the intimacy seems to be a long ways away. I am growing increasingly frustrated over the lack of intimacy, but she just says,"I need more time to process things. Trust the process. I am not going anywhere." We'll see.


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## Kari (Feb 17, 2012)

Lifeisnotsogood2 said:


> I had nothing when I brought up the snooping, only red flags that were easily refuted. We have not been intimate since that day. She will give me a hug or a kiss (peck) of reassurance, but the intimacy seems to be a long ways away. I am growing increasingly frustrated over the lack of intimacy, but she just says,"I need more time to process things. Trust the process. I am not going anywhere." We'll see.


Right, you've made all the rookie mistakes. Read the Coping With Infidelity forum to learn what to do and what not to do, and learn from other people's valuable experiences.

Right now she's in the power position and knows it. Stay strong, continue the 180 and MAP, bulk up those muscles at the gym, be cool polite and aloof, and eventually she might start to see you differently and realize that yes, you have it together enough to possibly leave her and attract someone else. She needs to feel a bit afraid of losing you.


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## Lifeisnotsogood2 (Sep 1, 2012)

Kari said:


> Right, you've made all the rookie mistakes. Read the Coping With Infidelity forum to learn what to do and what not to do, and learn from other people's valuable experiences.
> 
> Right now she's in the power position and knows it. Stay strong, continue the 180 and MAP, bulk up those muscles at the gym, be cool polite and aloof, and eventually she might start to see you differently and realize that yes, you have it together enough to possibly leave her and attract someone else. She needs to feel a bit afraid of losing you.


It's good that I've managed to stay in pretty good shape after 14+ years of marriage. I am slightly overweight, but I will lose that soon and try to get that 6 pack. For the last week, every time I've had a moment of weakness, I ran a couple of miles, came home, showered and went to bed. 

I'll be aloof too, as soon as I figure out what it means.

The evenings seem to be the most difficult, since that's when we are usually intimate. I break down almost every day, but she doesn't see it. sometimes I go for a drive and other times I just go to bed. I have never been in so much pain in my life. I have plans for us all the way through my retirement and beyond. I hope we make it that far...we have to.


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## KathyGriffinFan (Apr 4, 2011)

What's up with the $5K in another account while she was pinching pennies, trying to buy diapers? What happened with that? She mentions this as a point of contention. Was this solved? Did you give her answers? Could this instance pushed her to the brink of withdrawing from your marriage?

Some things don't add up to me, and she seems to be deflecting a lot. She keeps telling you that you're depressed. Are you? 

You've now said that you won't snoop and you agree that it's destructive. I think what you did is perfect. Now, start snooping because she thinks she can let her guard down. 

And what cell phone company doesn't provide phone numbers of your minutes used? Who is your cell phone provider?


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## Lifeisnotsogood2 (Sep 1, 2012)

KathyGriffinFan said:


> What's up with the $5K in another account while she was pinching pennies, trying to buy diapers? What happened with that? She mentions this as a point of contention. Was this solved? Did you give her answers? Could this instance pushed her to the brink of withdrawing from your marriage?
> 
> Some things don't add up to me, and she seems to be deflecting a lot. She keeps telling you that you're depressed. Are you?
> 
> ...


I put 5k in a safe deposit box after I attempted to gain more affection was was rejected. This was in May of 2011. She discovered it on father's day 2012. A bill for the renewal came in the mail. She doesn't usually open my mail, but she did this time.The 5k was less than 20% of what we had in our joint account at the time and probably 15% of what we have now, so it wasn't like it was affecting anything. Heck, she didn't even notice.

I figured she may be out of love at the time and if she was planning on kicking me out. me and the kids would need a bed to sleep on and a place to rent. I figured the 5k would help a little. She would obviously stay in the house with the kids and I would have them on the weekends. I was planning on the worst case scenario. I figured if things worked out for the better, we could use the money for a vacation.

Depression? Not really. I'm certainly bummed about the lack of affection and now the lack of sex too. It's been 2 weeks. the most she will do is give me a peck on the lips, but I suppose that is better than it was just a week ago. I am not suicidal or anything. Actually, lately I've been indifferent to the whole thing thanks to the 180 I started.

My cell phone service is AT&T. They send me a summary only. I guess I could asked for a detailed bill.


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## Lifeisnotsogood2 (Sep 1, 2012)

So I finally got a make-out kiss last night, initiated by her. It was nice. We were just sitting on the couch after I got home from working 16+ hours. We just kind of sat and talked a little about the days events and then she planted one on me. Progress, I love it.

I know I'm still pretty far away from being intimate again, but I am willing to wait.


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## Kari (Feb 17, 2012)

Lifeisnotsogood2 said:


> So I finally got a make-out kiss last night, initiated by her. It was nice. We were just sitting on the couch after I got home from working 16+ hours. We just kind of sat and talked a little about the days events and then she planted one on me. Progress, I love it.
> 
> I know I'm still pretty far away from being intimate again, but I am willing to wait.


Cool!! Keep waiting and letting her come to you, but responding (at the same level, but no more) when she does initiate something.


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## Lifeisnotsogood2 (Sep 1, 2012)

Last night I went to be early because I have to work 16 hours today. I put the kids to bed and said I was going to bed. She said, "Kiss" as she was folding laundry and I motioned for her to come to the room because out daughter still up. She cam in the room a few minutes later and said, "This is what I don't like, this cat and mouse game." She then leaned over to kiss me and I turned away and said, "When you talk to me this way, I don't want to kiss you," and turned away. She left the room but later came back and apologized. She got into bed with me and snuggled. I then go a real kiss before she went back out to the living room.

Getting better.


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## Lifeisnotsogood2 (Sep 1, 2012)

Kari said:


> Cool!! Keep waiting and letting her come to you, but responding (at the same level, but no more) when she does initiate something.


That is all I'm doing, responding at the same level, but I really hope the next time involves sex.


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## Kari (Feb 17, 2012)

Lifeisnotsogood2 said:


> She said, "Kiss" as she was folding laundry and I motioned for her to come to the room because out daughter still up. She came in the room a few minutes later and said, "This is what I don't like, this cat and mouse game." She then leaned over to kiss me and I turned away and said, "When you talk to me this way, I don't want to kiss you," and turned away. She left the room but later came back and apologized.


Your saying 'When you talk to me this way, I don't want to kiss you.' was perfect. Bravo. You passed a sh!t test. However, you should not have motioned for her to come into a different room. She thought you were escalating or playing a mysterious game so she got suspicious. Just kiss in front of your daughter. It is very good for your daughter to see you guys being affectionate even if its a passionate kiss, although if she's not used to seeing this it might startle or scare her at first so work up slowly to being passionate in front of your daughter. 

My son has the annoying habit of getting jealous and trying to push us apart when we kiss, but he doesn't cry or anything. The oedipal jealousy is stronger with boys though.

If your W asks you for a kiss, come close and put your arms around her. Ideally let her lean in first, but if she doesn't then you start the kiss. Let her set the passion level (during this period of the 'turning the temperature down' which I think will last for a few months unfortunately).


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## Sara Ann (Aug 27, 2010)

Why wouldn't you kiss in front of your kids??


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## Lifeisnotsogood2 (Sep 1, 2012)

Kari said:


> Your saying 'When you talk to me this way, I don't want to kiss you.' was perfect. Bravo. You passed a sh!t test. However, you should not have motioned for her to come into a different room. She thought you were escalating or playing a mysterious game so she got suspicious. Just kiss in front of your daughter. It is very good for your daughter to see you guys being affectionate even if its a passionate kiss, although if she's not used to seeing this it might startle or scare her at first so work up slowly to being passionate in front of your daughter.
> 
> My son has the annoying habit of getting jealous and trying to push us apart when we kiss, but he doesn't cry or anything. The oedipal jealousy is stronger with boys though.
> 
> If your W asks you for a kiss, come close and put your arms around her. Ideally let her lean in first, but if she doesn't then you start the kiss. Let her set the passion level (during this period of the 'turning the temperature down' which I think will last for a few months unfortunately).


My kids are clueless to everything. Even my daughter, who is 12 and very astute, has no clue. I do kiss her in front of the kids passionately even. My disabled son has the worst time with this. If he sees us kiss, he'll scream, get between us, then tell me "No Kiss" and walk away knocking things off the table and such. 

I guess the motioning was a little too much anyway. I should have just gave her a kiss there and went to bed.


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## Lifeisnotsogood2 (Sep 1, 2012)

Sara Ann said:


> Why wouldn't you kiss in front of your kids??


I would have, but I really wanted her to lay in bed with me for a little while.


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## Lifeisnotsogood2 (Sep 1, 2012)

Last night I got home from my 16 hour shift, told the wife and daughter (Who was up past bedtime) that I was going to shower and go to bed. I took a quick shower and went to bed and to my surprise, my wife came in the room to lay down with me for a while to cuddle. We did that for about 10 minutes and then we kissed before she went back out to the living room. Very nice.


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## Lifeisnotsogood2 (Sep 1, 2012)

My wife landed in the emergency room yesterday. I guess she had been having stomach pains all night that continued well into the next day. She finally emailed me at work to let me know. I came home right away and made her go the ER. we spent 5 hours there and after a bunch of tests, they discovered she had an ovarian cyst that ruptured. Whew, nothing major. I did enjoy being there with her in the ER. I think she liked it too. Things with us are progressing. She's been more affectionate lately.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Wow, I hope she's all right!

Life, I came looking for your thread because of the other one we were at odds on, because I wanted to see what your marriage was like, that you would be so dead set against the advice we were giving. It makes sense why you feel the way you do. But your situation is not really like the other poster's.

That said, can I ask some questions/comments about your situation, about my guess on what's going on?

First, it's been my experience that SAHMs go through a 'change.' When they don't get outside the house, when their life revolves around kids and the annoying repetitive tasks of cleaning counters, folding clothes, doing dishes, wiping butts, over and over and over again...it can become very discouraging. I just cleaned that, and now there are 20 more dishes to wash! Being a SAHM is NOT for the faint of heart! So I think it would help you to try to walk in her shoes a bit to see what it's really like to wake up every morning, knowing you won't get out of this doldrum, this routine. You get to talk to adults. She doesn't, not that much. It's a HUGE difference and can really do a number on a woman's mind, especially if she worked before she got pregnant. 

With that in mind, I'd ask you what her routine is like? How often does she leave you alone with the kids? Does she take any classes where she can interact with other adults? Does she belong to any clubs? How often does she meet her friends for a lunch or a movie? Often, women THINK they want to be a SAHM but, when faced with it over many years or many children, start to become numb or depressed or just biding their time til they can be a real adult again.


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## Lifeisnotsogood2 (Sep 1, 2012)

turnera said:


> Wow, I hope she's all right!
> 
> Life, I came looking for your thread because of the other one we were at odds on, because I wanted to see what your marriage was like, that you would be so dead set against the advice we were giving. It makes sense why you feel the way you do. But your situation is not really like the other poster's.
> 
> ...


She is really involved in our kids school. She is a School Board member and participates in a lot of the hiring, firing, program changes etc. Although she does not get paid, I would guess she spends 10 hours per week at school in the front office and has a Board meeting at least once per month that is about 5-6 hours long. She will go to GNO about once per month with her GF's. She also spends at least 1 hour per day on FB and she talks on the phone quite a bit.

I think she gets quite a bit of adult conversation.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

If you say so.

Have you ever asked her how she feels life turned out? Is it what she expected? Would she change anything?


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## Lifeisnotsogood2 (Sep 1, 2012)

turnera said:


> If you say so.
> 
> Have you ever asked her how she feels life turned out? Is it what she expected? Would she change anything?


She says she never knew anything was wrong. She thought things were going well although she knew our intimacy was needing a little help. She thought that was what life with kids was supposed to be and that we would re-connect when the kids moved out.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

No, I meant about whether she was feeling fulfilled. This is something a lot of people just never stop to analyze, actually; they just gradually become more and more dissatisfied. And don't dig deeper like you are doing, to find out why.

Hmmm...

What about this. Do you and she spend 10 to 15 hours a week together without the kids and not doing housework/kidwork? According to His Needs Her Needs (which I consider the bible of committed relationships), couples have to work to keep in love, to not let routine take over, and to not let resentments grow. And the first way to address this is to ensure that you and she still spend that much time together, somehow, kindling that feeling for each other.

It could be as simple as having a cup of coffee together before you go to work, working a jigsaw puzzle when you have a spare 15 minutes, going on a walk, reading a book to each other instead of watching tv...you can get creative on this one. It's one of the best ways I know of (aside from dropping the beta male) to get your wife passionate about you again.


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## mrstj4sho88 (Sep 5, 2012)

StatusQuo said:


> ^^ Okay, that's not so appealing...


It sounds like she wants to try new things with you. Maybe she is ashame to ask you. Looks like her sexual needs have changed. That might be why she does not enjoy it anymore. You have to ask yourself what are you willing to do ? Who knows maybe the old ways are boring to her now. If she is playing with her toys , she still enjoys sex. She looking at all that freaky porn wishing you would do those things to her. I don't think she is cheating on you. If she was cheating on you, she would not be using her toys.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

She needs a manly man to want to have sex with you. If you have become beta, *nothing* will make her want to have sex with you. Wanna understand most women? Read a romance novel.

Have you read No More Mr Nice Guy yet?


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## mrstj4sho88 (Sep 5, 2012)

What about you being a bad boy in bed? Just forget about all that sweet nice cuddling. You get in that bedroom and handle your business! She watching all this freaky wild sex porn. Just get in the bedroom and ask yourself one thing.."who is the master" You got to go to work in the bedroom too.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Do you have the 52 Invitations to Grrreat Sex? You should get it. It's not a book. It's a set of invitations to the bedroom.


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## Lifeisnotsogood2 (Sep 1, 2012)

turnera said:


> No, I meant about whether she was feeling fulfilled. This is something a lot of people just never stop to analyze, actually; they just gradually become more and more dissatisfied. And don't dig deeper like you are doing, to find out why.
> 
> Hmmm...
> 
> ...


I read the same book and I agree with most if it.

Nearly impossible to spend that much time together. i'd be lucky to get 5-7 hours alone with her. We have a lot of kids and one with disabilities. It's tough to trust anyone with him except my parents. I take the kids there on Sunday, so that is usually our date night.


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## Lifeisnotsogood2 (Sep 1, 2012)

mrstj4sho88 said:


> It sounds like she wants to try new things with you. Maybe she is ashame to ask you. Looks like her sexual needs have changed. That might be why she does not enjoy it anymore. You have to ask yourself what are you willing to do ? Who knows maybe the old ways are boring to her now. If she is playing with her toys , she still enjoys sex. She looking at all that freaky porn wishing you would do those things to her. I don't think she is cheating on you. If she was cheating on you, she would not be using her toys.


I've asked if she wants to try anything new in the bedroom like toys, new positions,etc. I have even tried these things w/o asking, total rejection.


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## Lifeisnotsogood2 (Sep 1, 2012)

mrstj4sho88 said:


> What about you being a bad boy in bed? Just forget about all that sweet nice cuddling. You get in that bedroom and handle your business! She watching all this freaky wild sex porn. Just get in the bedroom and ask yourself one thing.."who is the master" You got to go to work in the bedroom too.


One of the last times we were intimate I was fairly rough (Grabbing the back of her hair and serious pounding). She said she didn't like it and had that look of...what's wrong with you. Oh well, I liked it.


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## Lifeisnotsogood2 (Sep 1, 2012)

turnera said:


> She needs a manly man to want to have sex with you. If you have become beta, *nothing* will make her want to have sex with you. Wanna understand most women? Read a romance novel.
> 
> Have you read No More Mr Nice Guy yet?


Not yet, but it sounds like it should be on my list.


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## Lifeisnotsogood2 (Sep 1, 2012)

turnera said:


> Do you have the 52 Invitations to Grrreat Sex? You should get it. It's not a book. It's a set of invitations to the bedroom.


I would even take 10 invitations.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Lifeisnotsogood2 said:


> Nearly impossible to spend that much time together.


Coffee together before you go to work. Do a crossword puzzle together in bed. Turn off the tv and read a book to each other. Set out a picnic blanket in the back yard and let the kids run around while you two eat or talk. Join a babysitting co-op (find one for special needs kids) for more time alone. Take the kids to an enclosed safe park and let them run free. Send messages to each other via phone or (gasp!) leave real, written notes in lunchbox or on pillow, or on the mirror. Tape a recorded message and send it to each other; start an ongoing message relay. Save up and send the kids to grandparents for extended stay with some money so they can take the kids out somewhere. Set up a quarterly block party where all the kids can run around and the adults get to hang out together. Start a round robin dinner club in your neighborhood. Start a poker club and all the families pitch in for a joint babysitter.

Be creative. Look for 15 minutes here, an hour there. It's the effort that brings you together as much as that activity, sometimes.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Lifeisnotsogood2 said:


> I've asked if she wants to try anything new in the bedroom like toys, new positions,etc. I have even tried these things w/o asking, total rejection.


 If she's skittish to begin with, you will have to DO it, not ask, but do so gradually. Like bring something but don't use it the first time, but let her see it and think about it. Work your way up. 

Lots of women won't want toys, though, especially if they were abused - it's dirty and something to just get done.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Lifeisnotsogood2 said:


> Not yet, but it sounds like it should be on my list.


 No one has suggested it yet? I'm shocked. 

That should be the FIRST, even if ONLY, book you read. Get it today.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Hey Life? On the previous page, you said AT&T is your cell provider? You don't even have to get them to mail you a detailed bill. You can view all the details online. It's how I keep track of our texts and calls.


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## Lifeisnotsogood2 (Sep 1, 2012)

turnera said:


> Coffee together before you go to work. Do a crossword puzzle together in bed. Turn off the tv and read a book to each other. Set out a picnic blanket in the back yard and let the kids run around while you two eat or talk. Join a babysitting co-op (find one for special needs kids) for more time alone. Take the kids to an enclosed safe park and let them run free. Send messages to each other via phone or (gasp!) leave real, written notes in lunchbox or on pillow, or on the mirror. Tape a recorded message and send it to each other; start an ongoing message relay. Save up and send the kids to grandparents for extended stay with some money so they can take the kids out somewhere. Set up a quarterly block party where all the kids can run around and the adults get to hang out together. Start a round robin dinner club in your neighborhood. Start a poker club and all the families pitch in for a joint babysitter.
> 
> Be creative. Look for 15 minutes here, an hour there. It's the effort that brings you together as much as that activity, sometimes.


I do try to get an hour after the kids go to bed. the last one is in bed by 9. I am usually in bed by 10 because I wake up at 4. She goes to bed at about 1130 or so, after she watches the shows she recorded that day. She does not work but has to have the kids at school by 8.


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## Lifeisnotsogood2 (Sep 1, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Hey Life? On the previous page, you said AT&T is your cell provider? You don't even have to get them to mail you a detailed bill. You can view all the details online. It's how I keep track of our texts and calls.


Thanks


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Lifeisnotsogood2 said:


> I do try to get an hour after the kids go to bed. the last one is in bed by 9. I am usually in bed by 10 because I wake up at 4. She goes to bed at about 1130 or so, after she watches the shows she recorded that day. She does not work but has to have the kids at school by 8.


This has next to nothing to do with the suggestions I made. What effort are you making to change things?


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## GotMeWonderingNow (May 31, 2012)

I came over to look at this thread too due to the civilized disagreement on a different thread. 

As per the advice I received on my thread I did read MMSL and NMMNG and have been living the content of those publications for the last 3 months. My sex life has gone from next to nothing to as much as I want when I want it doing all sorts of stuff that my wife was never interested in, but now seems to love doing. 

When you get unbanned life, start reading! Especially now NMMNG... you are a text book Mr Nice Guy!


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## lifeisnotsogood3 (Sep 13, 2012)

GotMeWonderingNow said:


> I came over to look at this thread too due to the civilized disagreement on a different thread.
> 
> As per the advice I received on my thread I did read MMSL and NMMNG and have been living the content of those publications for the last 3 months. My sex life has gone from next to nothing to as much as I want when I want it doing all sorts of stuff that my wife was never interested in, but now seems to love doing.
> 
> When you get unbanned life, start reading! Especially now NMMNG... you are a text book Mr Nice Guy!


I'm definitely reading NMMNG.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

I dont have time to write a lot right now, but as a woman who has been on both sides of the HD/LD coin, i want to give you some immediate advice. 

1. Stop apologizing to your wife for wanting a healthy satisfying sexually intimate relationship WITH her. That is an important component for a healthy marriage. In fact stop apologizing for everything unless you have really done something you are sorry for!

2. Stop accepting pity sex. Tell her no - thanks, you can give yourself an orgasm. What you want from her is regular physical intimacy. That not only do you want that - you need it in order to feel that she loves you.

3. Switch to a sex therapist instead of a MC. Look for one that specializes in treating married couples with your issues. Sex therapists have the same training as MC, but also have additional training with sex issues. 

4. Stop watching porn. For the majority of women - porn sex is lousy sex and trains men to be bad lovers. Instead look for educational videos and books that will train you to know what works and is enjoyable to women.

5. Do get the books suggested above and read them carefully.

6. Work on being a good father, a good provider, and a good leader. Develop confidence in yourself and do not be a doormat to your wife. All these things make you attractive. Begging, whining, and being a doormat is not attractive. State what you need and your boundaries and don't apologize for them.

Bottom line - you want physical intimacy with your wife because you love her, desire her, and it is how you feel close and connected with her. These are not things to apologize. You are hungry and she is just throwing you bones!!!


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## mrstj4sho88 (Sep 5, 2012)

Lifeisnotsogood2 said:


> One of the last times we were intimate I was fairly rough (Grabbing the back of her hair and serious pounding). She said she didn't like it and had that look of...what's wrong with you. Oh well, I liked it.


:scratchhead:

I just don't know what you can do ?


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## loveloss (Sep 27, 2012)

lifeisnotsogood said:


> My wife and I are in our early 40's and we have 3 kids. We've been married for 16+ years and have been struggling in the bedroom for 10-12 years. My wife is just not passionate, affectionate, and has told me on more than one occasion that if she never had sex again in her life, she would be okay with it. Of course hearing this made me uneasy about our relationship.
> 
> We have sex about twice a week and she is always dreading it. Also, during sex, she would only want to do the missionary position. No kissing during sex, no foreplay, just straight to the point with lube and I have to go get ready so she can do it between commercials. I accepted this because I was at least getting something, but I really wanted the passion, *I wanted to be desirable to her.* I'm an attractive man (I think) and in decent shape, maybe 10 lbs overweight, so that is not the issue. I'm very clean and shower 2 times a day, once in the morning before work and again before I go to bed, so that shouldn't be an issue either. When I ask my wife the the problem is. Why there's no foreplay, she says it tickles her boobs when I kiss them, or that she not in the mood for oral, ever really. Then she reminds me that getting it twice a week is better than a lot of her friends and that I should be happy.
> 
> ...




For me its not normal. She might just be curious of other female bodies. It may not be anything like that. I sometimes do it so I can compare boobs lol! JMO


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