# Terrible night...what does this mean????



## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

At my wits end.
I am truly hoping there are those out there who can help me figure that out. Or at the very least, offer feedback so as to keep my from going insane with this stuff.

Quick synopses:
Wife very LD. I am HD. Has stated that sex has simply never been a “high priority” for her. Stated that sex “has always stressed her out”. She has BPD – and with it - the ever present irrationality, rage, blame, and all the unpredictability that ensues. 

Sex over the years…started good. Albeit I was far more experienced and freer with my sexuality and truly enjoyed an entire life of wonderful sex and intimacy. At first, she seemed so happy like she was brought into a world of color. That said, I really loved her and she …to this day…does something to me that no other woman has. I still desire her as much today (if not more) than long ago.

So fast forward.
Sex soon after marriage and kids, began to seriously take a turn. Frequency fell off dramatically. She indeed did showcase a lack of desire and as she mentioned it was not even on the radar to some degree. That said – we continued to have sex AND we were both enjoying it. In fact, WHEN we had sex..even if she did not seem to be fully there at first…she really got there during.

I have ALWAYS been the one who needed to initiate. She would NEVER …since day one.
This was the first time I had ever experienced that to such a dramatic degree. I talked about it – and she just said that I would have to…she just could not. SO …I did. And over the years…I was thus rejected …more …and more…
In fact – it seemed like I was set up to be somewhat “controlled” that way.

I was the one who wanted a wonderful and happy and intimate sex life. (she would at least SAY she agreed)
SHE, because of ME being the one who initiated, suggested, asked seemed to be the one who thus controlled the when and if.
We even went thru a point where she actually took sex off the table all together. (painful time).

I hung in there. I do love her. I do want us to stay together. 
But this became truly unbearable. In fact, while the no sex was almost impossible to accept and deal with, the lack of affection, touch, kindness and appreciation. Was excruciating. She vaguely stated that there was none of that forthcoming, so as to not wrongly signify an overt or purposed lead up to sex.
So…about half a year ago…I (even to me) found myself at wits end. I really found myself calmly coming to a realization that I could not go on this way. Did not want to end my marriage or my family. But was equally at a point that something had to happen.

And then?
She reintroduced sex back into our marriage. (huh??)
I was happy…but there was a part of me that was thrown a bit if not a bit angry.
So..just like that? What? So, WHY could we not have found a way to get back to here far before now?
But here is the thing.

The VERY first time after it was back on the table that I then initiated…I was met at best with a hesitant or reluctant ok.

The second time (weeks apart) She said that I was now "pushing”…or “pressuring”. (WHAT!?)

To be clear…I do NOT do that.
In fact…have learned that the very best way to initiate is the most subtle possible. It almost has to be that I cannot showcase “too much” desire. I try to put it hardly out there. Text. Suggest maybe dinner out. Etc. I suppose part of it is as well to reduce the all too often pain of rejection.

So we have continued to have some sex. (average of couple times a month) BUT…it has to be HIGHLY orchestrated and almost “by accident”.

She has resumed the NO initiation again. SO…I am left to do that.
In the first few months…she was open enough to even quasi initiate so much as to meet the suggestions for a nice weekend or night with some dialog or interest.

Then…it became a situation where …if we made love at one point…and it was a nice time. Enjoyable time away..etc…IF a couple weeks even later I suggested we do again…was met with anger. Suggestion that “we JUST did”….”it’s never enough”…”I knew this would happen”….”you are pressuring me”…

Now let me be REALLY clear again. I do not and have not EVER pressured for sex. So THAT is a really tough statement to hear. AND I clearly wince each time.

SO ---all this leads me up to the recent incidence I need some people to help me understand or dissect.

We were “in agreement” to have sex about 2 weeks ago one night. AS we go to the night…she announced she was too tired. I said ok (was disappointed) but let it go. She said how about tomorrow night. 
Tomorrow night arrives -I suggest we go out to a nice dinner. 
As the day goes on…she seems bent on us getting into an argument. Any argument. About ANYTHING…
I avoid it..so she simply makes and issue up to get angry at me. Preposterous at that. But – you guessed it…dinner she calls off. And so – is any possibility of sex.

Fast forward to last night.
We had a REALLY nice day together. (rare in a BPD world). Went out to lunch at a favorite place. Took a walk. Had a great time talking about us, future, etc…Was truly great…close. Even held hands and kissed a bit. We told each other how much we loved one another etc. This continued thru the day.
Later on way home…I suggested we carve out some time for us later.
She said “OK. But I won’t want to if I wind up tired later”.
I inside was thinking “what?” Now predicting tired? But I let it go and said something like “ok…if so we at some point really should try to figure out a way we can find time for us when not so tired”
Anyway – the early evening came.
I finished all the tasks for the day …picked up and shuttled the kids here and there..came home and she said she needed wine. So I headed BACK out to get some. (my wife …from day ONE …has ALWAYS needed alcohol when having sex. I have asked – and she has stated that “sex has always stressed her out”..”alcohol reduces her stress”)
I return with it. 
Eventually she heads up to bed.
I follow shortly afterward.
We lie in bed and talk about anything she wants to for over an hour. (this is ALWAYS the case. IF I make a move “to soon”..she get angry. It is almost as though sex needs to be NOT overtly stated. IN some odd way I cannot SHOW my desire to her. (Which is a complete mystery to me as ME HAVING desire for her I would think would be a good thing(???)
Anyway…usually the sex starts with me eventually starting to caress or begin to take her top off. I am a very attentive lover so I do not rush into anything and she eventually does get very responsive.
This night..after talking about things…she states that “she is not going to be able to “be there” tonight”…
“too stressed..”…
I asked her why she was stressed? Then she dropped the horrible statement on me. “ I feel pressured”….”I am not into it tonight…for whatever reason”..
And I was REALLY nice about it. But she would not STOP being really angry and almost made up pissed. And saying some really nasty things. I kept asking what is wrong? Why are you stressed? WHAT in the world could I have possibly done to make you feel pressure?
I also at least said …”I do not feel that I did anything wrong. I had a great and intimate day with you…I felt GREAT feelings for you…and I wanted to make love to you”…
Her answer? “you just need a release”….”you are like all men”…
I was really shocked at this stuff. But I stayed calm and said…”what is driving this”?
She said that she decided she was not “in a good spot to have se” and that I need to respect that.
I said I really do respect that..I do NOT want to if she does not. But WHY all this ugliness? WHY or WHAT or HOW could she possibly feel like I did anything wrong or caused her to feel pressure??
I asked “when did you feel pressure”?
She said …”the moment you first asked”.

SO – everyone – PLEASE help me with this…
SHE will not initiate. I am left to do that. I HARDLY ask anywhere NEAR the frequency commiserate when I feel sexual or desire her. 

I am VERY careful to ONLY suggest when there MIGHT be a possibility. 

I am turned down – or excuses are eventually made/arguments manufactured approximately 90% of the time even at that.
SO …PLEASE …if anyone –especially any women can weigh in on what this is.
My sanity is at stake...(said only partly in jest...)


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

Sorry nightmoves.

I don't have any good advice.
Hopefully others will have.

What I can tell you is I understand what you're going through because I had a wife with ALL of the BPD symptoms.
It was a nightmare.

Throw logic out the window. You cannot discuss, debate, or argue.
You cannot win.
They will divert, distract, change the subject on a dime and turn everything on you and have your head spinning.
You know this, but you still try logic and it doesn't work.

If I were you, rather than attack the subject at hand (sex) I woulkd learn more how to deal with BPD. there is a very good webbsite called BPD family. I was on it for several years.
There is nothing but people who have spouses and partners who have BPD.

I don't know your wife, but I know BPD. 

Best wishes, and I hope you will get better advice than me.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

How much wine did she drink? Does she tend to get mean if she's intoxicated?

Besides her BPD issues, I believe you had a bit of a mean drunk on your hands, based on the things she said when you were lying in bed talking.

And I agree with jorge... you can throw logic out the window when it comes to an explanation that makes sense.

Sorry for what you're going through...


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## JWTBL (May 28, 2014)

It means she doesn't like sex.


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

Jorge -thank you.

Happy clam - She had originally many years ago started with a glass of wine at night. If sex was involved perhaps 2.

She eventually got up to a BOTTLE of wine every night/ some times a bit more.

When our MAJOR issues started and the BPD symptoms exploded (did not know what BPD was then) the correlating factor was that she was drinking MUCH more.
And yes...she got really nasty. It was VERY unlike her. Vulgar. Aggressive. Hurtful. 
Myself and even the kids were doing double takes. 
I have learned far later about BPD. AND I understand that it cn certainly make the rage, irrationality,depression, anger, unpredictability...MUCH worse.
(kind of BPD on TURBO)

So - that period was when ALL hit the fan. Including her pronouncements of no more sex..etc..etc..

Then - she came to me one day and said she thought she had a problem with alcohol. I was VERY supportive. Told her I was proud of her to see it...eb concerned about it....etc...

And what did she DO about it??

She read book after book about it ...for almost a year. BUT kept drinking. 
I was somewhat in denial I think. I swore it was the one thing I did not want in my life as I had experienced that years again...so I am sure that I was stuck between horror and denial.

When she DID want to talk a bit about it...or when I broached it lightly...and said things like "I am here for you"..."we will get thru this"...it was met with **** YOU....and other assorted niceties.

Anyway ...eventually she stopped all together. And when she did ...she was NOT happy about even doing that. But I again told her that I was very proud of her...and here for her...and we would get thru it.

One thing (amongst many) that she said then that was especially curious was 

" SO now with no wine...you will have NO chance of me having sex".... (whaaat??)

Anyway - the off wagon went on for about a little under a year.
The rages were indeed less...but still there. The BPD stuff may have gotten less rageful...but not by much. The OTHER BPD symptoms actually go worse.
And then ....withouth fanfair the drinking creeped back in most recently. And with it...so did some sex again. (WTF)

So ...sorry for this long answer ...but yes....she is drinking and it is now at a bottle a night.


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

JWTBL

Ok...at the risk of either sounding like an idiot or not heeding the one line that perhaps is the only musing needed...

I am in many ways acceptant that the one line is likely the answer. (realizing me adding "likely" again sets me up as an idiot of sorts...)

But - here is the confounds...

1. We really seem to have (when we have it) good sex. And no - I am not being stupidly in denial. I have had a pretty robust sexual life - so although willing to admit no one is ever sure...i can tell enough to believe she enjoys the sex.

2.She says that the sex is good

3. She says she finds me attractive/desireable. Loves me. Wants the marriage.

BUT...given all of that...I AGREE with you.
So how/why all the contradictions??

AND...beign someone who does MUCH better when I understand the reasons why....WHY?


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Has she been diagnosed with BPD by a professional? And if so, what's she doing to treat it?

At some point, you'll need to figure out your boundaries and stick with them. Without clear lines in the sand, she'll just keep doing what she feels like. 

C


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Is the sex you have really worth the agony she puts you through to get it? Sometimes it's not.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

From what I learned of BPD (no expert by long shot) they are by nature of the disease full of contradictions. They are imbued with subconcious fear of abandonment (with has nothing to do with reason or how you are treating her by the way)and are constantly doing push-pull.

That is pulling you in when you are detaching and pushing you away when you are getting to close. Their irrational and subconcious fears seek constant control in the relationship. They are never at ease for any length of time, and they can change behavior on a dime. Like go from loving, caring to crazy anger in a split second.

This dynamic could be at play here.

BPD webbsite coaches/advises partners how to deal with this constant changing and repressed anger. It's not about you at all.
They project. It's actually not you they are angry at, it's themselves and their past. YOU happen to be in the way and you are there pin cushion.

The webbsite teaches (or at least attempts) partners when to walk out, how to set boundaries, how to engage, what to tolerate and what not to. To those who are committed and in love enough to deal with a very frustrating person whom most people could not bear with.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

I cannot emphasize enough nightmoves that if she is BPD (has she been diagnosed?) then her behavior ITS NOT ABOUT YOU.

This is something as hard and illogical as it is must be reckoned with.

My ex actually was astute enough to recognize this on several occasions in her more lucid moments she would tell me after her rages "ITS NOT ABOUT YOU". It would leave me in bewilderment and shock, but it's the truth


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

Jorge - 

Thank you so much.

Yes - I haev read tghat and been told that as well.
NOT taking it personal - is easier said than done.

Let me ask you a question.
Is it then - BEST - to in the AM...just act like nothing happened?
So my wife awoke after that noght ...with a look of complete anger.
(SHE looked angry...BUT...SHE was horrible...I from any stanpoint did NOTHING)

I just stayed away. (rare for me - as I am USUALLY the one saying can we discuss - or what happened? - or something...)

She then came up to me about an hour later and said..."can we not have this just build and move forward?"

I gave a perfunctory ok...and on we go into the day...

Here is my problem...she said some REALLY rotten and horrible things. She had some REALLY erroneous "whys" and "wherefores". It ended REALLY again badly from an intimacy position.
THAT ALL SAID.....
I hope you can understand my question of - HOW can I or anyone just LET THAT GO?

Are'nt I just letting that and those statements stand?

Doesn't the situation NEED an apology? A repair? An acknowledgment?
SOMETHING?

SHE claimed I was "pushing" or "pressuring" her.
NO WHERE CLOSE.

She said ugly things.

SO - if I guess I understood the strategy - I can let them go. 
But I feel two things.
1. Almost unable to let some completely wrong perceptions go unanswered or best corrected

2. Trouble just letting someone who "loves me",...and is my WIFE...off the hook for some really terrible statements.

I guess - IF - this is really not about me.Then I need to get that straight FIRST. THEN maybe 1 and 2 go away...?


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## MeatTrain (Dec 4, 2013)

nightmoves8 said:


> At my wits end.
> I am truly hoping there are those out there who can help me figure that out. Or at the very least, offer feedback so as to keep my from going insane with this stuff.
> 
> Quick synopses:
> ...


Your wife sounds like an abusive nightmare, and not a partner. Why you've decided to put up with it for as long as you have I do not understand. She treats you like crap, she's an alcoholic with rage issues (horrific for kids to have to witness that). You need help ASAP. Get into therapy, set up boundaries. Her having BPD does not give her the green light to be a raging *****. She need to find ways to manage it. And you need to not let her step all over you.


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## ShadowBunny (Mar 9, 2011)

There's not a daggone thing YOU can do to fix her. However, as MeatTrain said, you can learn to set boundaries, and make sure your kids are protected. Therapy for you (and probably the kids) is in order. 

In the meantime, stop trying to please/placate her. Because you're just beating your head against a wall. Be kind, but not a doormat. If nothing else, do it for your own sanity.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

I believe the need for intimacy is inate, and people need it in varying degrees. Nothing wrong with needing it or not, it's the way we are. It is only problematic when a person who has a high need ends up with someone who has a low need.

I have a female friend. Her DH is HD. They agreed to have sex 3x/week. This was a compromise. However, not only does he need the sex but he also 'requires' her to start with drinks. Then move to the shower, then progress to orgasm. He gets upset if he can't get her off. The whole thing takes about 2 hours. She will often end up staying up till 2am with this business. Not to say she doesn't enjoy her time with him - but she doesn't NEED this. She feels pressured to preform. To do things the way he 'requires' them to keep him happy. 

Don't get me wrong - I think that sounds like heaven myself. I'm on the same side of the fence as you. Not getting enough intimacy in my marriage.

To a person who needs little intimacy I'm not sure it matters if it's a 15 minute quicky or an all day event. In fact the latter likely does feel stressful, like being stuck at some activity that you can't leave. 

It sounds like she doesn't like having sex with you. Sorry to be blunt. You do try, you want her to love it. You desire her and want her to enjoy it. She doesn't care. She's fine without it. 

I believe her comment about you being like all men was probably because she had a nice day with you and did not need the day to end in sex. You guys had been close, nice day, now we are done. You just wanting to get off didn't probably mean you don't care about her sexual satisfaction. It was that she didn't want to have sex.. And you did. And then she was mad likely because it felt like you were manipulating her all day just to get in her pants. 

Sadly there are quite a few of us in your situation. We have partners who like sex when they have sex, who get off, who we want to please - and yet these partners don't give much thought to sex. It's not the same thing to them as it is to us. We wait weeks for them to want to have sex with us and when they do its like - could you hurry up please? Got to get up early.

It's a soul breaker. That's for certain.


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## WalterWhite (Sep 14, 2012)

Night moves, I too was once married to a BPD wife. After spending $20,000 in couples counseling with a therapist that specialized in female BPD, I called it quits. There is no cure for BPD, and there is no meaningful treatment for it. BPD is an evilness I am sorry to say. Your situation will never ever get better in a sustainable way. As long as you stay in your marry you will never ever be happy beyond small flashes of joy which is always ephemeral. Now I am married to an awesome wonderful normal wife that is LD but loves to sex me up at least 3 times a week; not bad for me being 54 her 48. Don't wast your life. Trying to work things out with a BPD is to fight a battle that you can NEVER win. Never, ever!!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Paging Dr. John... Paging Dr. John. Code BLUE in Main Bedroom. Please bring Crash Cart...

Here's a hint. 

In order to survive a spouse with BPD you may have to completely detach physically and emotionally. 

If you continue the physical connection you lose control - which, as you found out, is a big part of her game. You get awesome sex on her SLA (time frame). And you wonder "if you liked sex so much that you had 2-3 hours of it why would you not want to have it more often? Since your wife pretty much sounds like mine I think you know the answer.

Bumping up the frequency causes engulfment. The frequency indicator in her head is "once a month" and "all else". You can propose every four weeks or 28 days and it's less than once a month. Bzzzzzzt.

The last step is complete disconnect. Today we dropped our older girl off to college and drove back the few hours. Alone. In near silence. 

Mission accomplished.


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

OP,

I'm sorry to hear about the problems you're having. You seem to have tolerated so much more than I ever would have. It also sounds like you've got to jump through a lot of hoops just to occasionally have the sex you do get. That's simply not fair or right.

What I would like to know is how was your sex life prior to marriage? How was her BPD then or was it more mild where you were unaware of it? If she was anything like you describe prior to getting married, why did you do it? 

I don't mean to be overly direct but weren't there some signs of this while you were dating? I would think there may have been a number of red flags that either went unnoticed or just plain ignored. I'd just like to get a better understanding of the background.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

My wife is the same... she has OCD, takes ADs, has no libido, and sex nights must be carefully planned (always around 1 o'clock in the morning, after she spends hours reading and on her iPad, by which time I'm exhausted). She has to decide she wants sex. It just doesn't happen. She can't be pressurised, otherwise it goes out of the window. It's very stressful for me, to the point I've given up on it. It's just too much. It makes me miserable. 

I'm afraid I have no advice. My wife refuses counselling or therapy. So, it's not going to be better. She is happy, though...


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Is it possible that sex for her is only a part in a very intricate play? It cannot be planned, a goal, or act, it has to be the result of some dramatic and romantic experience?

Maybe she has these cinematic views of sex occurring only while in the midst of some epic wooing.


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

Dear Mostly Content (envious..;-)


First - thank you for the post.

Our sex life before marriage was as follows...
It was pretty good. Athough I noticed that I had to take the lead far more than most I had been with in the past. She was responsive and truly found pleasure in it, but there was a sense that she was tentative or at least a bit inexpereinced. She never seemed to "let herself go" very easily. She did orgasm and at times very easily.
The one thing I noticed right off the bat - was that once she had an orgasm....she was done. Completely done.
THAT was very new to me. There has NEVER in - from dayone - AND after ALL these years...a time when we laid around and had sex for an hour or more. There was never an afternoon, morning, night that we would just carve away time for sex.
EVEN when we were away at some getaway vacation.
I thought that was odd.
Also noticed that when she orgasmed...then she was DONE. Touching needed to stop. I needed to stop even if I had not as of yet.
I derive as much pleasure out of giving than getting so feel I am an attentive lover. So this was odd to me. 
The other thign I did notice was that she seemed HIGHLY stressed or inhibited in some ways.
Bad body image. She was not thin. BUT ...she was - to me - really sexy and I loved the curves. (as a matter of fact - she is women who I was so truly sexually into so much that It really did not matter to me where she was on a scale)

She was also someone who did not like to explore other positions and such. When I tried rear entry (doggy style) she stopped and said no - because "she feels like and animal or cow that way".
When I tried 69..(a favorite of mine) ..she said no - did not like that.
Here is the paradox....
She seemed VERY into it once I initiated and we had started. It seemed that I was skilled enough that she almost could not keep from getting very stimulated and then she would be very responsive. Now, not saying she became wild or daring..but physically she really got into it.

(hope that helps set the groundwork)

As far as the BPD...I did not even know what BPD was (or existed then)
LOOKING BACK...yes - I see plenty of things.
During that time...I did a lot of "double takes" though.

I remember that there was a VERy quick shift to angst or like she became someone a bit different at times with her emotion or anger. 
I also remember when it happened around her family - they actually were very sure to find a way to "explain" it away to me.
One thing that was said - that I thought odd - was that she was that way because of a prior relationship. (??)
Looking back - at the time - she seemed actually SO sweet and attentive and (as so many who are dealing with BPD spouses state) ...perfect. I really think that I put her on a pedestal at that time. She was kind, caring, patient...etc...
But ...i also noticed...she was nowhere near as "naturally" affectionate as most others I had dated or been in relationships with.

So - hope this answers your questions.
Really, the BPD symptoms began to showcase themselves after we had children. And it was sudden and strong.
I really did not know what was happening.
Post partum? Hormones? Stress?

I LOVED our sex life together. (actually really always had a great and enjoyable sex life my entire life...so really found pleasure in connecting that way).
I understood the shift after kids...but this was FAR more than that. So that was tough.
I read what happens to many who have a wife with BPD after the marriage and such...that seems to be what happened here.

But looking back - the BPD really started in earnest. Again - it ahs been years later that I read an article on BPD...and froze. Was like reading MY story. Almost exactly.


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

Forest - wow - that post really hit me.
I say that because that is somethign that I have used to describe what i "feels like" at times.

It seems that there needs to be (in her mind) a GRAND prelude...and things (in her mind) need to be all tied together.
Now - I realize how much emotiins and settings and such are all somewhat tied into sex for a woman...BUT...I have joked that it seems as thought it IS a more cinematic (sans the sweeping background music) notion of this a bit.

Sex can NEVER be impulsive. Never be sex for sex sake. Just in impulse - abandoned - raw - reckless - FUN.

In many ways - it FEELS like a person who has been taught that sex is ONLY ok when a byproduct of XYand Z.
And then that is taken to EPIC heights even after years of marriage.

We MUST (for instance) ALWAYS ...talk for close to an hour about mundane things in bed - like chores aroudnthe house...teh kids...etc..etc..
BEFORE we have sex.
(yea...quite a turn on....to talk about painting the garage....)

IF - I try to "move to quick"...she gets angry that I "only have one thing on my mind"...."or I am "pushing" her".

So - yea...it seems it HAS to be very sequential - not totally sure as to why...
In many ways (and this may be hard to describe)...it has always seemed that I need to showcase that I am NOT that into it...it is NOT that much an urge for me...a desire...a pointed want..
AND that is SO strange for me.
In may experience (quite a lot) every other woman i have been with seem to LIKE the fact that they are desired. That sometimes it is a matter of abandoned and impulse. Certainly, even years later - if their man showcases desire and want when jumping into bed when BOTH decide to do that...that is rarely somehting that NEEDS to be slowed down... (huh???)
Any thoughts woudl be MOST appreciated.


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

Hey absentia- 

Thanks!

Yes...your story and mine - have many similarities it seems.

I WINCE when my wife uses the words "pressured" or "pushed".

I have NEVER done that in my life.
AND would never do that .
Never needed to. Would never want to.
In fact - it is a MAJOR turn off to even think thru that.

BUT - my wife seems to see pressure and pushed in teh most impossibly implausible ways. I say that because now I am HYPER aware of not even doing ANYTHING that could be noted as that.

Here is the odd thing.

So NOW ...recently ...when she states that ...and I ask her WHAT did I do to make you feel that way? When did you feel that way...this is what she said:

The moment you suggested we maybe make love later that night.

OK...so my simply suggesting...in a very round about way... she now considers as me "pressuring her for sex"...?

AND - I now add to the text.."it is totally fine if no is the answer"

AND -I mean that. 

I am NOT happy with where our sex life is...BUT...I REALLY am done with the pain over it. SO...I really AM ok with no. In that sense.

SO ...now it is simply a mild initiation or gently abstract amorphous "ask" that pressures her....


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

John - 

Good grief man.
You hit that ...right between the eyes.
(time to move up to large appliances....;-)

Your writing:

_In order to survive a spouse with BPD you may have to completely detach physically and emotionally."_

SO JOHN - I really and truly not only get this- I BELIEVE this.
BUT - what the hell does that really achieve for us? 
It may allow the relationship to continue - and the rage and fury to lessen - BUT - then no physical and emotional bond? That then is gone in our lives - correct?
(maybe let it be rhetorical...I am not sure I can even rad the obvious answer today...)

THEN you wrote :
(ps will someone showcase to me how to grab a written passage and place it in the colored box ...I assume using "quote" button)

"If you continue the physical connection you lose control - which, as you found out, is a big part of her game."

JOHN - oh man. Yes. Big yes. I would add that to HAVE the non BPD husband also being the 100% initiator...ADDS the power as we are ALWAYS the one "seeking" and they are then able to be the "decider" ....and thus set up even MORE control.Intimacy the ALWAYS revolves around what THEY choose. Intimacy - is what we then CRAVE.
In may life - prior to this relationship - sex was wonderful. Carefree. Often. Varied. Happy. Fun. Natural. 
That was taken away.
I assume that if you do to anything - like even eating - what happens in this BPD sceario to intimacy..it would produce the same effect.
Eating..is relatively Carefree. Often. Varied. Happy. Fun. Natural.
Dont really think about it. Enjoy it. 
BUT ...what if it was reduced. controlled. determined by another when, if,how, what?
Made HIGHLY unpredictable. Punished for the want. Chastised for the hunger. AND even...blamed and raged at for asking your spouse...your theoretical "loved one"...if you might please have some food.
Maybe a bad analogy...but ....

JOHN wrote:

You get awesome sex on her SLA (time frame). And you wonder "if you liked sex so much that you had 2-3 hours of it why would you not want to have it more often? Since your wife pretty much sounds like mine I think you know the answer.

Yea...totally agree...but will add this.
IS IT...awesome sex?
To use the food analogy above...ever go on a camping trip or in some region where bad or no food is the only option?
McDonalds is AWESOME when you first get back.....

Don't get me wrong - I am still immensely turned on by my wife. ANd desire her very much. But I am not so sure the sex is awesome anymore. 
That said...the irony of it all...I love her and desire her in a way that I never really judged it that way. I HAVE been with many ...where I was able to simply "judge" the sex. But the terrible irony for me is...I really want HER. 
Maybe that is why I have struggled in this for so long. 
Then if that is the case....there is irony for her as well.
(though she may never see or feel it...)

GREAT POST John...thank you.


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## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

MissScarlett said:


> I
> 
> I have a female friend. Her DH is HD. They agreed to have sex 3x/week. This was a compromise. However, not only does he need the sex but he also 'requires' her to start with drinks. Then move to the shower, then progress to orgasm. He gets upset if he can't get her off. The whole thing takes about 2 hours. She will often end up staying up till 2am with this business. Not to say she doesn't enjoy her time with him - but she doesn't NEED this. She feels pressured to preform. To do things the way he 'requires' them to keep him happy.
> .


a little OT, but your friend's husband really sounds like he has ED. The warm shower water, and standing up while he is rubbed, both help him to get an erection. But it is probably not that stiff, so the sex ends up taking hours and herculean effort. :rofl:

what she should do is demand he use an ED drug (Cialis, Viagra, levetra) at least 1 hour before he wants to get laid. Then SHE has to do as much as possible to stimulate his mind, like sexy lingerie, really aggressive sexual action and talk. He should be able to get the job done in under a half hour with those conditions.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

nightmoves8 said:


> Hey absentia-
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> ...


my hunch is that, like my wife, your wife needs to feel in control. She ha a problem with letting it go. It's ok when she does - because she has decided to - and therefore she enjoys sex. My wife enjoys sex very much when we have it. But she is also getting rather restrictive on sex positions too. I used to give her oral sex, we used to have 69s, we used to have it doggy style... it's all gone out of the window now. Luckily, I get oral, occasionally. Our frequency is now once a month.

As far as the pressure is concerned, I did put her under pressure in the past, meaning I used to ask for sex every couple of weeks...  getting annoyed if it didn't happen. I found that normal. I wasn't asking for sex every day! She used to say that all I did with the kids or in the house was to get sex from her or that I was nice to her only until we had sex. Which wasn't true at all! Since she doesn't want therapy, there is no solution to our problem. I have given up...


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Some things (and some people) really aren't worth the hassle. You've spent years trying to drag her into the future as an actual, functional wife. That's not who she is. She's a dependent. You are a source of security. Sex doesn't appear on her radar screen because only she appears on her radar screen. If you view yourself as a husband you will be disappointed and frustrated. View yourself as what you are...an uncompensated mental health care provider. She's done everything but tattoo on her forehead "no sex". She doesn't want it. Any words she may say to the contrary are just lies.


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

Unbelievable- first - before I say this - thank you.
Direct - and clear.

Now..the statement that you made....
"View yourself as what you are...an uncompensated mental health care provider."

Had me :rofl: unable to even stop laughing.

The single funniest thing I have read on these threads.
(funny - but exceptionally and undeniably accurate)

The Tattoo on forehead. I get it. Understand.
The tough part is trying not to take that personal.
Impossible to do some times.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Well, what's to be gained by staying in such a marriage? Money - lots of it - and room service. In return we sleep on the same bed, go to bicycle rides together, go to the rare social event as a couple where everyone is appropriately impressed, and maintain a very nice house.

As for sex quality, in the past at least, sex was VERY good. We would set an evening together, watch a movie together, start the pregame, have a glass or wine or two, game time, and postgame with an omelette... At 3 am. 

It's still not worth the effort and certainly not worth the aggravation for once a month...


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> Some things (and some people) really aren't worth the hassle. You've spent years trying to drag her into the future as an actual, functional wife. That's not who she is. She's a dependent. You are a source of security. Sex doesn't appear on her radar screen because only she appears on her radar screen. If you view yourself as a husband you will be disappointed and frustrated. View yourself as what you are...an uncompensated mental health care provider. She's done everything but tattoo on her forehead "no sex". She doesn't want it. Any words she may say to the contrary are just lies.


Agree. Having a mental issue does not mean she is stupid or ignorant. She knew that you were at your limit with sex being off the table. So, she puts it back in play. But, that is an empty gesture because she is not comitting to anything concrete - just that she will entertain the possibility.

Now she's fed up. And she thinks she's done enough to keep you in the game. You need to tell her you need a true partner as a wife, not a large child. A true partner meets your needs as much as you meet hers. Anticipating her complaints, you don't need a release, you need that intimate connection. You don't expect her to endure it, you expect her to get healthy to where she can participate meaningfully and cheerfully.

It will takes lots of work on her part, but she can do it if she applies herself. If she refuses to get to that point, you will be moving on to somebody who likes you enough and is healthy enough to do so.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

nightmoves8 said:


> Unbelievable- first - before I say this - thank you.
> Direct - and clear.
> 
> Now..the statement that you made....
> ...


If a drunk or mentally ill person says or does something you find hurtful, remember you are talking to a defective human being. It's not personal. She could swap you in on any man on the planet and he'd be hearing the same lame excuses. This isn't about you. Whether you feel hurt or not doesn't matter to her. She's denying you basic human needs. What does she care if you feel hurt? Might as well face the truth that you are trying to get oranges off an apple tree. If you can get to the point where you see her about as sexual as a lawn chair, you will be amazed at how liberated you will be. Coming to her for sex or complaining because you aren't getting it makes her more powerful and you weaker. In reality, I expect you hold the true source of power in your relationship. All she has are vague promises of crumbs. If the marriage failed, what would you lose? A woman who doesn't want to have sex with you? A woman who can't stand to be intimate with you? Constant frustration? What would she lose? 90% of her security?


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

Unbelieveable.

VERY believable.
THANK YOU
Love the quote:

" Might as well face the truth that you are trying to get oranges off an apple tree."


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

I can't imagine what it's like to live with someone with BPD, but I can get a pretty good picture of it.

The way I see it, she's a child in many ways. It's easy to get mad at her, but at the same time, it's not -really- her fault, therefore you don't. Mental disease is a very tough issue to deal with, and particularly with one that has no real "cure".

At some point, you will reach your boiling point. At the moment, you probably feel as though if you leave her, you will be giving up on her. But you run the very real risk of giving up on yourself, as well. And that's a life well wasted, imo.

The thing is, and you already know this - it's not her fault. But at the same time, there is NOTHING YOU CAN DO, nor anyone else. She is what she is. And there is no shame in quitting when it comes to cases like this. The outcome is already pre-determined, and you're not on the winning side. So you can either spend the rest of your life like this, or not. Fortunately, it really is that simple.

My ex wife did not have BPD (I don't think...) but she had a whole host of other fun things, like OCD and major anxiety, all of which beat me down on a daily basis. She had her moments of lucidity, and they were just enough to keep me going. But day after day, right back into the same old... situation. I, too, thought she was the love of my life. I was still attracted to her no matter what she said or did. I thought there WAS no life without her. And thank God she eventually left me. Seriously, the irony of that is crazy to think about. Thank god SHE left ME. I wouldn't have ever thought I could survive without her.


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

Thank you Alex m

Very thoughtful and sincere words.

So tell me...did things get better?
HOW ...did normal feel again?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Living with a person who has a mental disorder is not easy. Seems to me that your wife - like mine - understands perfectly well what's going on, but at the same time she has to process it through her mental illness. You need to consider the situation from this point of you. If the illness is not curable, then you don't have many options. You either accept it or leave.

Seems to me that you are where I was a few years back. You are still trying to fight it. Believe me, it's a lost cause. Since our relationship was fine apart sex and with a few kids thrown in, I decided to stay. It's not ideal, but it's fine if you come to terms with it. Personally, I had to detach, forget about sex. When you'll reach that stage, you'll feel liberated. No more power struggles. You can live your own life, at last.

It's very disappointing, but that's life. At the end of the day, your wife is not well. My wife started experiencing her problem after two kids. She doesn't want to fix herself and, in a way, I understand. The process is long and painful and she is controlling it. She doesn't need sex and it's easier for her to carry on as it is. Obviously, this leaves me in a difficult position. Yes, sometimes I feel she's been very selfish - destroying our marriage when there is a solution. On the other hand, it's her life. Her body. She told me she would understand if I left. But I'm not leaving. My kids still need me. More than I need sex.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

Actually, what I learned from BPD in my research and from the forum,
BPD is curable to a degree, but like any other disease (alcoholism?)
it must be reckoned by the disordered person and usually involves intensive therapy with a therapist who specializes in it.

there are testamonies from people diagnosed with BPD who have been through therapy and recovered to a great extent. The breakthrough has to happen though. That is the person must want to change.

It is needless to say a very frustrating and hard to deal with problem and life can be hellish. 

It is generally considered that it springs from early family dynamics where dysfunction and abandonment issues were prevalent.

So, that being the case, it IS somewhat the disordered persons fault. True, their disorder is a disorder and there are overwhelming forces at play, but the individuals, usually to a great extent are aware of their dysfunction, but like many dysfunctional people they are stubborn and cling to their issues at their partners expense.
That makes it to a degree their fault.

To reiterate, there is usually no way out, other than to learn how to best deal with it, or prolonged individual therapy.

Drugs don't work


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

Moreover, persons with BPD are often very clever. They have learned to survive by evasion, lying, diverting, push/pull and controlling the relationship with burst of anger and acting out.

They at least subconciously or otherwise know what they are doing.

The sad part is that they learned this behavior very early on and don't know otherwise how to cope. They are gripped by extreme subconcious fears of abandonment that are embedded deep in their psyche.

The other sad part is it doesn't have to be this way and in between
their disregulations, life can be very blissful and heavenly.
Relationships yo yo between episodes of tranquility and then sudden explosions and disregulation.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

unbelievable said:


> If a drunk or mentally ill person says or does something you find hurtful,* remember you are talking to a defective human being. It's not personal. She could swap you in on any man on the planet and he'd be hearing the same lame excuses. * This isn't about you.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

IN Abstentia/Jorge...
In reading the posts - touched by the time you took to write such incredible thoughts and advice.

I agree - as tough as that is.
Abstentia...I do think I am in that still hopeful (barely) and trying (to no avail) place.
I seem to not be able to fully convince myself that this cannot just be made better again.
BUT - she really is NOT willing to even TALK about any of this. Her behavior, the rage, the intimacy..etc..etc..

Is it your experinces that they (BPDw's) try to overwhelmingly BLAME you for ANYTHING?
It has now gotten so bad...that THEY act completely irrational and I stay calm....and supportive...yet THE RAGE at me is that it was ME that caused it all. It is absolutely crazy.

Lately ...she performed yet another complete 180 degree about face on something...AND ...in a very ugly way...and she was TOTALLY angry at me for just asking to understand.
I was calm, collected, supportive - but wanted to just understand.

MANY days (though not as much as before) I succumb to maybe it is me that did something wrong. Maybe she just does not really love me? Want me. Etc.

Maybe she DOES hate me (as she at times will scream). 
She seems to project on me ALL her problems. It is now so implausible...that even I am getting immune to it.

Is it perhaps that as long as she can try to make all this and these things she struggles with ...MY FAULT..she does not have to look at herself??


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

nightmoves8 said:


> Is it your experinces that they (BPDw's) try to overwhelmingly BLAME you for ANYTHING?
> It has now gotten so bad...that THEY act completely irrational and I stay calm....and supportive...yet THE RAGE at me is that it was ME that caused it all. It is absolutely crazy.


My wife isn't BPD so she never rages... on the contrary, she is always calm and tends to shut me out... she lives in her own world, really, and never talks about what's troubling her. But, like your wife, she always blames me... it's never her fault....


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

I think you should be more direct with her. Stop the tip toeing around.

If you try to initiate sex and she says you are pressuring her, agree with her. Don't apologize for it.

Tell her that sex once a week is not unreasonable. That when it isn't happening, she can expect you to pressure her.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You expect reason from someone whose idea of argument is my way or the highway?

I have argued with 3 year olds many times and was successful  but arguing with my wife about sex is like arguing with my lawnmower why it will not start. The mower will not lose a beat and I will be frustrated at the end.

Sex seems to invoke some heavy duty reptilian brain like responses which are not realistic for the most part. I mean I can understand their fears etc but there is no way to get around it.

My wife has blown the opportunity of a lifetime for most people - retire rent free in a very interesting capital of Europe rent free with a LOT of money from pensions, 401k, etc. - all because sex is undesirable to her.

I could pull any 50 year old available woman from GregsList and she would love the opportunity to travel around Europe for life, in a place with low cost of living and good health care. So... How stupid can someone be?

Unfortunately her idea of retirement is an empty mansion in Tampa and zero money for travel etc...


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

jorgegene said:


> Actually, what I learned from BPD in my research and from the forum,
> BPD is curable to a degree, but like any other disease (alcoholism?)
> it must be reckoned by the disordered person and usually involves intensive therapy with a therapist who specializes in it.
> 
> ...


I stand corrected 

All the same. it sounds like a horrendous thing (for both people) to deal with. And if the affected party refuses to get help, then the other has very few options. I don't think I'd be strong enough to stick around in that case.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

nightmoves8 said:


> IN Abstentia/Jorge...
> In reading the posts - touched by the time you took to write such incredible thoughts and advice.
> 
> I agree - as tough as that is.
> ...


I'll answer your other question (ie. about life after) in this reply, as the two somewhat tie in together.

I discovered that after my wife left, that things were actually NOT my fault at all times. That I WAS a hard working and good man. That other women would desire me and want to be with me. That I had some value. But I wasn't made to feel like I was any of that, at all, and I believed it in my subconscious after many years of living with that.

For example, I did not feel attractive. My ex wife rarely complimented me about anything, and in fact I would hear 10x as many negatives. From what clothes I wore, to my hair, to my shoes, anything. You name it, she would pick on me about it. Slowly, I started to believe nobody else would want me, even though I KNEW that was ridiculous. I'd look at myself in the mirror and see a good looking man with a good haircut. And I liked my shoes. But she had me believing that if she, my own wife, found me undesirable, so would everybody else.

Not true. It was a rough road, regaining my confidence, but I got it back, and I'm now married to my childhood sweetheart. We have our own issues, but she doesn't make me feel bad about myself. She doesn't say she hates me, or blames me for everything, or makes me feel useless. Quite the opposite. I feel important to someone, and nothing beats that.

And I once believed my ex wife was the one for me, regardless of how she treated me. There's a whole 'nother world out there, man, and it's better than you can imagine.


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## tommyr (May 25, 2014)

> We even went thru a point where *she actually took sex off the table* all together.


No, she did NOT.
YOU allowed this. YOU are 50% of the problem.
YOU permit her bad behavior.

I get that she has BPD (and is receiving treatment, right?). So if you still love her, and want to stay together, her mental health issue means it's even MORE on you to act like an adult, and to reject her bad behavior.

It is totally unacceptable for her to scream at you. Are you also being treated for how to live with a BPD? Because it sounds like you need serious help yourself (and I'm not talking about sex).


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

tommyr said:


> I get that she has BPD (and is receiving treatment, right?).


From the behaviour the OP describes, I don't think she is receiving any...


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## khaleesivirge (Jul 2, 2013)

I think your wife is being selfish. In a nutshell I don't think she enjoys sex. If she did then she would WANT to more. You've had an orgasm, right? Feels great. Well, wouldn't you want to have one again? Exactly. I just think that if she enjoyed it she would want to do it.. I like ice cream and I enjoy it. So I have some every chance I get.. It's like that. Maybe I'm thinking too simple.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

khaleesivirge said:


> I think your wife is being selfish. In a nutshell I don't think she enjoys sex. If she did then she would WANT to more. You've had an orgasm, right? Feels great. Well, wouldn't you want to have one again? Exactly. I just think that if she enjoyed it she would want to do it.. I like ice cream and I enjoy it. So I have some every chance I get.. It's like that. Maybe I'm thinking too simple.


I had the same conversation with my wife. Apparently, it requires much adjusting to the idea... she needs to decide that she wants it... I think some kind of mechanism got broken inside her... very strange to me...  A "normal" woman would just desire it... but the reasons are really too many to mention.

Also, some women don't like to be pressurised, or "haunted", as my wife calls it... it just puts her off it.


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## tommyr (May 25, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> Also, some women don't like to be *pressurised*, or "haunted", as my wife calls it... it just puts her off it.


The solution to this ("pressured") is to have an honest discussion about sex (while clothed) and come to agreement on basics like frequency and initiation. For example, let's say this discussion results in an agreed frequency of twice per week. This leaves plenty of days in the week both for flexibility (if she's just not feeling it) and for action. People don't feel haunted over things if they know what's coming, know what to expect, and have previously agreed to.

For sure, this whole thread applies only to an LD scenario. And you can either remain in the problem (angry that she's an LD) or you can bring about the solution (she agrees to regular sex with a good attitude regardless of her desire).


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Tommy. This is great for normal and LD people who may not understand the importance of emotional connection.

But there are other types of people where a clothed discussion about frequency will have zero effect:

- people with personality disorders
- people with unresolved CSA etc
- people who purposefully withhold sex to be in control etc


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

tommyr said:


> The solution to this ("pressured") is to have an honest discussion about sex (while clothed) and come to agreement on basics like frequency and initiation. For example, let's say this discussion results in an agreed frequency of twice per week. This leaves plenty of days in the week both for flexibility (if she's just not feeling it) and for action. People don't feel haunted over things if they know what's coming, know what to expect, and have previously agreed to.
> 
> For sure, this whole thread applies only to an LD scenario. And you can either remain in the problem (angry that she's an LD) or you can bring about the solution (she agrees to regular sex with a good attitude regardless of her desire).


we had that discussion (clothed...  ), she agreed to a certain time frame, but then she felt pressurised anyway... not a lot you can do about it. You either feel pressurised or not. She did, regardless of the agreement. Anyway, if I know she is doing it for me, I don't want it...


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

john117 said:


> Tommy. This is great for normal and LD people who may not understand the importance of emotional connection.
> 
> But there are other types of people where a clothed discussion about frequency will have zero effect:
> 
> ...


well, exactly... obviously, Tommy's wife was responsive to such bargaining... my wife agreed too, but she wasn't really into it. I could tell. Better no sex than pithy sex...


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

I too - (as Abstentia) have had that discussion.
For a while it actually did work pretty well. We got in a rhythm and the issue actually became workable.

But at some point...she then decided that she was only "doing it to take care of me" (ouch) ...and that she would from then on ONLY do it when SHE wanted or felt like having sex.

Now ...here is the thing..I OBVIOUSLY want her to want it. 
It is a MAJOR turn off - to the point of me NOT wanting it - if she is ONLY doing it to "take care of me".
First ...last time I looked - I was not that pathetic.
Second ...I very much still desire her...for ALL the right reasons...so this is a really tough thing to accept.

In fact...my wife says often ....that I am just seeking a "release"...
That all men are the same...
She has often (when angry about feeling "pressured") said "all you want is to get ****ED!"..."you are like all men"
THAT ...really really hurts. 
Let me say this...I had a really wonderful sex life in my life before her. Some time...admittedly...was at the stage of my life that it was at times simply about a wonderful and mutually enjoyable F--k.

But with my wife...from the beginning ...it was WAY more than that. It STILL is. I mostly want to CONNECT with her in this way. I LOVE making love TO her and WITH her.

I tried having the HD/LD discussion again. To no avail. She says that I need to stop "pressuring"her. I tell her that I do NOT see how I am doing that and ask her to REALLY explain to me as I do NOT want her to feel pressure. She says when I suggest or initiate. But here is the thing...she NEVER suggests or initiates. She says that I never give her a chance. (???!!!)
It has been 17 years ...and never does she...
We can go without sex - and have - for very ling stretches...and NEVER does she initiate.

So ...THEN she says that I need to understand that NO means NO. Again - I do - so don't understand that one...SO I AGAIN ask her to please be really clear what she means.
She says that when I initiate or suggest maybe tonight we go upstairs early (I HAVE to mention this in advance - as just to be impulsive will not ever work)- and she says yes...then later in the day (sometimes even in bed) she decides its now a no...I need to respect that. I say that I DO. (and I do)
BUT..she says...you may suggest again the NEXT day....
SO you are pressuring...and need to understand that NO means NO...(huh????)

Crazy making. And it is debilitating.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> well, exactly... obviously, Tommy's wife was responsive to such bargaining... my wife agreed too, but she wasn't really into it. I could tell. Better no sex than pithy sex...



The moment you start bargaining for sex the battle is nearly lost anyway. 

It's like trying to convince your kids to study. If they want to do it they will take the initiative on their own. If not... You may get them to study by bargaining or bribing or other means but it's unlikely they'll get into Harvard...


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

john117 said:


> The moment you start bargaining for sex the battle is nearly lost anyway.


I'd say that, if you need to bargain to get sex, the battle IS lost...
Turn the page...


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

I too - (as Abstentia) have had that discussion.
For a while it actually did work pretty well. We got in a rhythm and the issue actually became workable.

But at some point...she then decided that she was only "doing it to take care of me" (ouch) ...and that she would from then on ONLY do it when SHE wanted or felt like having sex.

Now ...here is the thing..I OBVIOUSLY want her to want it.
It is a MAJOR turn off - to the point of me NOT wanting it - if she is ONLY doing it to "take care of me".
First ...last time I looked - I was not that pathetic.
Second ...I very much still desire her...for ALL the right reasons...so this is a really tough thing to accept.

In fact...my wife says often ....that I am just seeking a "release"...
That all men are the same...
She has often (when angry about feeling "pressured") said "all you want is to get ****ED!"..."you are like all men"
THAT ...really really hurts.
Let me say this...I had a really wonderful sex life in my life before her. Some time...admittedly...was at the stage of my life that it was at times simply about a wonderful and mutually enjoyable F--k.

But with my wife...from the beginning ...it was WAY more than that. It STILL is. I mostly want to CONNECT with her in this way. I LOVE making love TO her and WITH her.

I tried having the HD/LD discussion again. To no avail. She says that I need to stop "pressuring"her. I tell her that I do NOT see how I am doing that and ask her to REALLY explain to me as I do NOT want her to feel pressure. She says when I suggest or initiate. But here is the thing...she NEVER suggests or initiates. She says that I never give her a chance. (???!!!)
It has been 17 years ...and never does she...
We can go without sex - and have - for very ling stretches...and NEVER does she initiate.

So ...THEN she says that I need to understand that NO means NO. Again - I do - so don't understand that one...SO I AGAIN ask her to please be really clear what she means.
She says that when I initiate or suggest maybe tonight we go upstairs early (I HAVE to mention this in advance - as just to be impulsive will not ever work)- and she says yes...then later in the day (sometimes even in bed) she decides its now a no...I need to respect that. I say that I DO. (and I do)
BUT..she says...you may suggest again the NEXT day....
SO you are pressuring...and need to understand that NO means NO...(huh????)

Crazy making. And it is debilitating.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Then you have your answer. Stop initiating. Start detaching, and eventually bail out.

It's simple stuff... As much as I want to fix things they been screwed beyond repair so...


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

john117 said:


> Then you have your answer. Stop initiating. Start detaching, and eventually bail out.
> 
> It's simple stuff... As much as I want to fix things they been screwed beyond repair so...


I don't think the OP has got to that point yet... still searching for an answer, that doesn't exist... if his wife wanted to have sex with him, she would... the fact that she doesn't and makes all sort of excuses is your answer...

We still don't know if the OP's wife is taking medications or being treated for her BPD...


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## tommyr (May 25, 2014)

Yes you are right: I did strike a "bargain" with my wife.
She get's to remain married (to me) and to have her needs met by a loving husband.
In return, she meets my needs, which includes a regular sex life.
Because I was unwilling to live in a sexless marriage, and I had the balls to be honest and tell her this. It's not a threat. It's not blackmail. It is simple and pure honesty that I refused to go along with her LD, and she could participate in the solution (which would have been divorce, if she weren't so willing to work with me).

Seriously folks. I am right there with you that sex is an important, non-negotiable, deal breaker part of marriage.
And my wife does not get to just stop doing that part of the marriage without major consequences.
If she has low desire, fine. I can work with that. She just needs to "show up" for sex with a good attitude. Her low desire is not an obstacle.

You guys are waaay to hung up on that She-Needs-To-Want-It.
Well my wife *wants* to have sex with me... so what if her "wanting" is not her own "sexual desure" but rather her desire to have a lasting marriage? Like I said, I do lots of stuff for her needs that are purely out of love.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It's not quite as simple as that. 

Try "negotiating" with a six figure earning PhD of a wife used to negotiating large projects and she will tell you in four words or less to FOAD. 

Never mind that you have the same qualifications and earn more than her.

And that's before mental illness, culture, resentments, skeletons, etc even come to the picture.


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

Abstencia,

OP here.
Is it REALLY that simple after reading my posts?
I am being serious here. 
I am OK with whatever answer and not ego gaurding at all.

It IS true I have not found the answer yet.

BUT - I think you are saying that the answer regarding whether or not she likes/wants sex is pretty clear (obvious).

Now - IF I ask her...she will give me a DOZEN reasons why she does not want it. (insinuating that she DOES want it...but...but...blame..blame...fix...fix...)


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## 4x4 (Apr 15, 2014)

tommyr said:


> You guys are waaay to hung up on that She-Needs-To-Want-It.
> Well my wife *wants* to have sex with me... so what if her "wanting" is not her own "sexual desure" but rather her desire to have a lasting marriage? Like I said, I do lots of stuff for her needs that are purely out of love.


This is a tough one for me. Really really tough.... Divide by zero hard.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

nightmoves8 said:


> Abstencia,
> 
> OP here.
> Is it REALLY that simple after reading my posts?
> ...


Sorry, I'd like to respond tonight, by my wife just told I snore badly too... 

But briefly, you will get a different answer every time... what's the end result? I don't know... not sure you'll get to the bottom of it, I never did...


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