# Don't Marry Career Women



## temperance (Jul 28, 2013)

I found interesting article I'd like to share: Don't Marry Career Women

As a career woman...and the predicament I am in with my stay at home husband, it does ring true. 

So men and women, thoughts? Do you agree?


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

As a married woman who also works full time outside the home, I agree on many of the items in the article. However, there are a few things that just don't ring true. One is they define a woman as having a career when she makes more than $30,000 a year. That's a little over $14 an hour. Of the women I know who work outside the home, none of them make that little. Even first year school teachers make more than that!

Another issue from the article is that if women work outside the home, they are more likely to spend time with coworkers and have a greater opportunity to have an affair. If that's really the issue, then what's the solution? All male businesses and all female? Women who stay home with their parents until it's time to get married to a man who can support them?

The real issue to me is also pointed out in the article, and it's one I agree with very much: specialization. When you both work, sharing responsibilities becomes a necessity. There are few men out there who would agree to become the person who cleans the toilets and scrubs the floors while the mother parents the kids. Or vice versa. Sharing in these responsibilities is simply a fact of a two-earner household, but in so sharing you have to be much better in being able to work together and compromise. And therein lies the rub. I think there are fewer divorces when responsibilities aren't shared because you don't have to coparent, decide who is cleaning the house, etc., etc.


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## reesespieces (Aug 3, 2009)

I think this article takes a very MRA view and ignores a lot of the realities that women face today. I'm no feminist but I think we have to deal with reality regarding current living.

Even if my husband and I decided to go on a single-income earner with children, we would have to live in a substantially low quality neighborhood. We would have to sacrifice on healthy eating (I am not talking about expensive organic here), and we'd have to make "is it life or death" choices regarding health. Right NOW, we're not in the position to have children and have my husband be the breadwinner. 

I think it also goes to note that a lot of women live to work, and a lot of women work to live. Women have actually always worked and many of them worked outside the home. The difference between then and now is women have greatly adopted the attitude of "I need to have a career at the expense of everything else." I am of the belief that even if I have to work full time outside of the home in a professional job, my family will always come first. I am willing to make sacrifices at the job in order to ensure that my marriage will be stable, healthy, and happy. In fact, I have already made those sacrifices in order to place my marriage first. My marriage comes first, no matter how much I'm making or what job I have.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

I can't say I agree with the third paragraph. I don't think career oriented men are more attracted to career oriented women. We of course want a women we can connect and conversate with, but as far as our priorities in a mate or concerned we are pretty indifferent towards her ambition/earning potential. Its just a much lower priority for us.

On the flipside a few of my college buddies were dumped after graduation by longtime girlfriends. Just because it became apparent that their career paths were not lucrative soon enough.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

We fit the Happy statistics/ fulfillment with Motherhood type thing.... I never worked full time while married (except the 1st so many months till our 1st son was born)... I would be considered uneducated College wise, never made over $30,000, have great respect for my Bread winning husband, less opportunity to cheat ...and I feel we have it all. 

My husband prefers a wife who stays within the home, he would not choose a career woman, he would care more about our time together... and I feel the same....though we do need to watch our dollars..having 6 children. 

I've always felt very thankful I was *able* to stay home..something I prayed for even.... we are not rich people, we have made sacrifices for this lifestyle.. I love being able to cater and dote on my family, making them my highest priority, I have never had the slightest worry of my husband cheating on me or leaving me, I married well. 



ReformedHubby said:


> On the flipside a few of my college buddies were dumped after graduation by longtime girlfriends. Just because it became apparent that their career paths were not lucrative soon enough.


 Our niece will soon be a Veterinarian... She was talking at length about her feelings on men a Christmas ago....she made it abundantly clear she would not even entertain the idea of being with a man who earned less than her... not after all the hard work she has put into her schooling.. she made the comment, she wouldn't be with no "Loser"...


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Our niece will soon be a Veterinarian... She was talking at length about her feelings on men a Christmas ago....she made it abundantly clear she would not even entertain the idea of being with a man who earned less than her... not after all the hard work she has put into her schooling.. she made the comment, she wouldn't be with no "Loser"...


Good for her. I too want my daughter to excel in whatever path she takes. I don't want her marrying a loser either. I guess I'm being somewhat judgmental, but its one thing if a man's busting his tail and his wife makes more than him, quite another if he is sitting around the house living off of her. Maybe I'm just different but I just don't think its in most men's DNA to do this. It just wouldn't feel right. 

I know its PC these days to say men and women are the same. But we're not. If you're a man lying in bed with your wife late at night and you hear a noise. Would you send your wife to check it out? Of course not. There are differences that some would call double standards across both genders that I honestly don't ever see going away, no matter how much society tells us otherwise.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

> _The other reason a career can hurt a marriage will be obvious to anyone who has seen their mate run off with a co-worker: When your spouse works outside the home, chances increase they’ll meet someone they like more than you. “The work environment provides a host of potential partners,” researcher Adrian J. Blow reported in the Journal of Marital and Family Therapy, “and individuals frequently find themselves spending a great deal of time with these individuals.”_


Using this premise, should we also conclude that all secretaries should be male? Or is it a myth that men can also be tempted to stray with an attractive member of the opposite sex:scratchhead:

IMO, Society is still adapting to _many_ things, and that includes women now being sufficiently educated to earn the same, and sometimes more, than men. Like it or not, it's a fact of life and, like most things, Society will learn to adapt to it - because things aren't going to go back to how they were 50 or so years ago... Until then, the pendulum will continue to swing, and until such time as it stops, people will have to adjust their relationship dynamic expectations accordingly. Why? Because there's no other choice.


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## dontbeused (Nov 15, 2013)

2galsmom said:


> OMG. I love the quote in your footer ebp123.
> 
> There are no easy answers. I had a career and had to alter it when my ex spouse who had the superior career (i.e. made more $) moved several times. Gave it up and became a stay at home mom, it was fantastic for my kids, I am happy I was blessed with the ability to do so. That said, many SAHMs get screwed in divorce nowadays and I am reluctant to urge my children to do it even though I also know happy healthy families with divided labor and SAHMs.
> 
> ...


since when do SAHM's get screwed in divorce? I mean you do have to get a job, if that is what we are including as getting screwed, but with alimony, and the fact the mothers still get to keep the kids the majority of the time, I am not sure what screwed means? You get half the assets gained throughout the marriage.. Just not understanding this point at all.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

dontbeused said:


> since when do SAHM's get screwed in divorce? I mean you do have to get a job, if that is what we are including as getting screwed, but with alimony, and the fact the mothers still get to keep the kids the majority of the time, I am not sure what screwed means? You get half the assets gained throughout the marriage.. Just not understanding this point at all.


Oh, it does happen. Often the other way round, but I got well and truly screwed in divorce.

I went back to work as soon as I decided to file for divorce, but got lumbered with 75% of child maintenance costs, despite the fact that my earnings were much less than my ex's. My earning capacity had decreased during my years as SAHM, and I had to hold down 3 jobs, at one point, to support my son and I.

We didn't own property and most of the assets we had were mine from before we married. I didn't have time for dating during my 30s and 40s. I was too busy caring for my son and trying to make ends meet, whilst my ex was going from wife #2 to #3.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I'm a CPA and was the breadwinner for 10 years. My house was clean, I didn't cheat, (forget what else was in that article) but yes I agree wholeheartedly it took it's toll on my marriage. I put my career first to my detriment (didn't know any better). Our marriage wasn't completely awful those years but it wasn't great either. My husband also felt a bit emasculated that I made more money than him and yes I used it as a way to control. I was wrong.

I now have 3 kids and I'm a homemaker. We are BOTH happier with this arrangement and I've been home for 10 years. I know the article states I wouldn't be happy in this situation but I am.

Disclaimer: I grew to hate my career and don't miss it at all!!! I spent 20 years working in accounting and am now officially retired.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

The SAHD thing has always bothered me.

The closest example of it's dynamic I've ever seen was with my SIL and her husband.
She married a businessman with a lucrative business and she was moving forward in the corporate world with her career..

The third year into marriage,he stopped his business, decided to become a SAHD and took care of _her_ little kid.
That boy loved him like his own father, he never knew his dad.

His wife suddenly strted * working late * till wee hours in the morning. By the time he finally caught up with her, she was back into a full blown sexual affair with the kid's dad.

He was devastated and cried like a baby.
One of the best chefs in our country , owned his own restaurant, decided to leave everything behind an play " Mr. Mom" for the woman he fell in love with and another man's child.

Before , when he had his own business, things were great, he was so secure in that marriage that he decided to stay at home. 
It was her idea.


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## ASummersDay (Mar 4, 2013)

No, I don't agree with the article as a whole. It makes some valid points, but others are sexist and ridiculous. I realize this was posted for discussion, but nonetheless I feel compelled to point out that linked article is very far from "scientific", and proves neither correlation nor causation.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Yeah, don't marry a career woman but then don't b!tch of the marriage fails and you have to pay her
alimony. Seriously, what a ridiculously sexist article; I work and make A LOT more than 30,000. I also have two boys that my career has suffered for, but that's ok because that was my choice and I wouldn't change it for anything. Life is about balance. I also don't give a hoot if I make more then my hb, which currently I make a little less than him but given that i'm much younger it's only a matter of time before I make more, and he loves it. I think the key is balance at home; I want a man to be honestly employed, take care of business, and is my partner. Whether he makes less matters not. My hb also knows that if he loses his job I can pick up the slack so that pressure is off of him. One of the reasons I divorced my ex was because he thought women were beneath him and should stay home and answer to him. Guess what? It's been 8 years and he's still single, apparently he's having trouble finding a woman that agrees with him. Marry someone you love and respect, that is a good partner, and will be thinking about how they can contribute to the marriage. If you agree as a couple that one of you will stay home and can make that work then great, but these blanket statements are ridiculous. A little attraction helps too..... And women have always found ways to cheat; evolutionary biologists and geneticists have long thought that historically up to 30% of children born in marriage weren't the husbands, it's only been recently that you could find out. The one thing I will agree with is if a career woman woman quits her job to stay with kids there is a decent chance she'll be unhappy, unless she didn't like her job to begin with and only worked to live. This is a decision that must be subject to periodic review.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Using the logic in this article, neither husband nor wife should work. If working gives women more opportunity to cheat then it does for men too. 

Fom the male point of view, relieving the anxiety about having a cheating wife is attractive. The little lady is safely ensconced at home relieving his mind so that he can bravely resist the temptation of new vj.

I think the worse thing for women to do is be backed into a corner in a relationship. It is human nature to be less appreciative of someone you are pretty sure won't leave. Even more so if the breadwinner thinks that he is paying cash for good service. 

My mother never worked, she never made out a check during her marriage, my father would not let her drive. She was totally dependent on him for her survival and that of us kids. 

She looked forwards to falling in love, being a wife having children. She needed a man who was a good provider and wanted a SAHM. She got what she wanted but she was also trapped.

My father got what he wanted too. A wife he did not have to worry about so he could pursue his mistress without the risk of losing his family. 

I will advise my daughter the way my mother advised me. Work at something you like. Doesn't have to be an executive position but something that is engaging in time, effort and intellect. Be involved in the family finances.

Never get in a position that you have more children that you can manage on your own, maintain friendships with people other than your family and maintain an interest outside of motherhood. Don't let your husband be too sure of you and don't be too sure of him.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

I just want to point out that you don't need to be a "high school dropout" to be working at a cash register or other retail job, and at any given point, be making less than $30,000 a year. Given our current national unemployment problem, for some people, even making the $30,000 a year would be a blessing. That statement just rubbed me all kinds of wrong. 

Also, this article extols the virtues of women who don't work, but many men on TAM have made it clear over multiple threads they do not support SAHMs. They feel they are worthless and lazy and bring nothing to a marriage and should get nothing if the marriage ends. That it's a "sham."

Further - people want to make up all of these ideas and statistics about the "past" any what male/female careers were like, but they are often totally off from historical reality. For long periods of time, neither men nor women worked "wage labor" in the same sense that we work today. There wasn't the same split between "market" and "non-market" labor for a long time. When the painful transition from agrarian to industrial life began, for the working classes, wives and often children were right in the thick of it at factories as well. This idea of women only in "domestic roles" is a rather modern and rather elite idea. 
And this article maintains the same elitism, by making the distinction between those who have a "career" and those who are obviously working jobs only suited for "high school dropouts."


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Caribbean Man said:


> The SAHD thing has always bothered me.
> 
> The closest example of it's dynamic I've ever seen was with my SIL and her husband.
> She married a businessman with a lucrative business and she was moving forward in the corporate world with her career..
> ...


Thank you!

This is a cautionary tale for all men and women who want to be or are SAHP. 

If the D stats are correct, 50% SAHM and D can expect to face eviction at some point.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

> I will advise my daughter the way my mother advised me. Work at something you like. Doesn't have to be an executive position but something that is engaging in time, effort and intellect. Be involved in the family finances.
> 
> Never get in a position that you have more children that you can manage on your own, maintain friendships with people other than your family and maintain an interest outside of motherhood. Don't let your husband be too sure of you and don't be too sure of him.


Your mother was a wise lady, Catherine.


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## silentghost (Jan 28, 2013)

With this day and age with all the divorces going on....I encourage my daughters to focus well in school so they can get themselves into a good career. 
I find myself pretty blessed that my husband's business is doing well where I can stay home to look after the kids and all the housy things that need to be done.
I am also quite fortunate that I'm involved with an organization that allows me to volunteer with our local ambulance. This way I can put in my own hours and still be involved with the family. This way I get my training for free with all my certificates and if something happened to my marital status...either through death or divorce...I have the tickets and credentials to get me a paying job without having to pay my way through college.

I used to be a career woman back before I got married...but now I don't give a hoot. My husband likes to be the breadwinner...so it's a win/win.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

The line "your house will be dirtier" just about sums up this article. It actually made me laugh. It sounds like something out of the 1960s.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Blondilocks said:


> The line "your house will be dirtier" just about sums up this article. It actually made me laugh. It sounds like something out of the 1960s.



Right? Heaven forbid he should clean his own f&cking house. But that's what women are for, at least in the world of the douche that wrote this article.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

My exH exploited the modern confusion around gender roles. He was functional neither at home nor at work. He lied to me about his income, would sabotage his work, and then would try to take over the housework to force me to become the breadwinner, but then the house would go into crisis (him cooking one meal a week, serving leftovers over and over till they were literally moldy--the kids wouldn’t eat; no clue about cleaning or organization, and he never got the kids anywhere on time--they were literally banned from the schoolbus because of it!). I became what our therapist called “the mother/father figure in the family.” And then I became a single mom, predictably. Worked 3 jobs (while earning a master’s degree). I’m tired just remembering all of this. 

After we split, he spent 2 years suing for disability and eventually got it. To him, that was success. 

Current H lets me be a SAHM now (“lets” because originally we assumed I would pull in half the income). It feels therapeutic. We both wish I would work but my career did not transfer well to our new location (where H’s job is). Recent events have reminded us how valuable it is to have one partner holding down the home front. We are both enjoying the sense of oasis and order. I save a ton of money for us through my management skills. Personally, I see a huge value in honoring home as a significant contribution to everyone’s well-being. We are all healthier now. Eat better. Are calmer. Who knew? (Also, no more probs coordinating travel/vacations. That truly feels like freedom.) (Note: If i go back to work I am definitely hiring someone to clean the house, so that's a moot point anyway.)

Perhaps what’s needed is a sense of valuing all the roles necessary to having a healthy and whole life--mother, father; home manager, income earner. We can all play many roles; what’s right for one family is no one else’s business IMHO. We definitely need to stop judging everything that women do. Good grief.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

questar1 said:


> My exH exploited the modern confusion around gender roles. He was functional neither at home nor at work. He lied to me about his income, would sabotage his work, and then would try to take over the housework to force me to become the breadwinner, but then the house would go into crisis (him cooking one meal a week, serving leftovers over and over till they were literally moldy--the kids wouldn’t eat; no clue about cleaning or organization, and he never got the kids anywhere on time--they were literally banned from the schoolbus because of it!). I became what our therapist called “the mother/father figure in the family.” And then I became a single mom, predictably. Worked 3 jobs (while earning a master’s degree). I’m tired just remembering all of this.



Oh boy.....I hate to use your post to forward my point of view. But your story echos what I've seen from SAHDs. There is always someone who says it works for me, we're happy bla, bla, bla. From what I've seen its allowed men that were bottom feeders in past generations to take advantage by disguising their laziness as "modern thinking". They don't make a home for the children. They simply sit around and take advantage of mama bear.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Starstarfish said:


> I just want to point out that you don't need to be a "high school dropout" to be working at a cash register or other retail job, and at any given point, be making less than $30,000 a year. Given our current national unemployment problem, for some people, even making the $30,000 a year would be a blessing. That statement just rubbed me all kinds of wrong.
> 
> Also, this article extols the virtues of women who don't work, but many men on TAM have made it clear over multiple threads they do not support SAHMs. They feel they are worthless and lazy and bring nothing to a marriage and should get nothing if the marriage ends. That it's a "sham."
> 
> Further - people want to make up all of these ideas and statistics about the "past" any what male/female careers were like, but they are often totally off from historical reality. For long periods of time, neither men nor women worked "wage labor" in the same sense that we work today. There wasn't the same split between "market" and "non-market" labor for a long time. When the painful transition from agrarian to industrial life began, for the working classes, wives and often children were right in the thick of it at factories as well. This idea of women only in "domestic roles" is a rather modern and rather elite idea.


I'll agree the article is terrible. With that out of the way I completely understand that wage earning is new. But...I think you aren't recognizing that even though men and women have always worked together, the roles were always different. Is this not correct? 

I get that it seems PC to assume we are the same but we're not. Ironically it really isn't the men that are even in control. If it were more attractive for men to be SAHDs we'd do it. Men will literally do whatever it takes for female companionship. If high school girls decided that geeks that played band instruments were who they wanted, athletes would learn the trumpet.

We can't ignore our biology. We aren't androgynous. Attraction drives everything, and we are hard wired to be attracted to certain things. We can certainly override it to some point but in the end we are who we are.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Cosmos said:


> Your mother was a wise lady, Catherine.


Thank you Cosmos. She has a hard time believing how wise and smart she is. My dad called her stupid and she believed him. 

Lest anyone think that I have no advice for my son. His life will be different from my daughter's. He will get on a treadmill of toil when he is in his 20's that he will not get off for decades. 

He has other choices but they are not mainstream. As a man, he has to work and support a family if does what our culture expects and he wants to be respected. 

Many women have a choice to have full, part or no outside work. The corollary is that they can chose to have full, or part inside work. They are never without the care of children and household. 

I will do everything I can to let him to enjoy his childhood and young adulthood to the fullest. Don't think I should tell him about the treadmill thing but I will advise him to work at what ever he loves and is excited about. 

We try to avoid elitism and making too much of one type of work over another. He loves cars now, like his dad. He may be a mechanic.


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## captainstormy (Jun 15, 2012)

To me, there is a difference between a career woman and a woman who happens to have a job.

I had a boss once who was what I would call a career woman. She traveled for the company 45 weeks a year, Monday through Thursday. Spent all day Friday at her local office, and really only had the weekend to spend with her family.

Course she was divorced, 3 times. With ex husbands in 3 different states. She traveled so much she really didn't feel like anywhere was home. She had two daughters, who each lived in separate states with their fathers having full custody. They were mainly raised by nanny's she hired though. 

She saw her kids a couple of times a year at best. She was a really nice woman, but a workaholic for sure. She had a six figure salary sure, but she was a slave to the company. I always felt bad for her.

My wife, while she works outside of the home is nothing like that. She has a typical 40 hour per week job. I don't really see that as taking away anything from our relationship. She works the same hours that I do so it isn't like we could spend that time together anyway.

We split all the housework and cooking and such, usually we do it together too.

I make more then twice what she does, we could live on what I make, but her income allows us go from getting by to living comfortably.

If we had kids we might have to reevaluate things, but we aren't planning on it so that's a bridge we can worry about if we get to it.


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## reesespieces (Aug 3, 2009)

Is it unreasonable to point out that even if a woman has a fairly good job, she will put her marriage first and foremost? Or is that idea too far from reality these days?

I think about the things I will need to do to help my husband and I get financially stable. I will most likely be the person who makes significantly more but at the end of the day I know a job is just a job. I would rather be a SAHM and a prudent wife to my husband than some woman who decides to be married to her career.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Drumroll...

I agree with the article big time but not for reasons 1-9. There's reason number 10 but it got eaten by the browser. 

Men seem to have the hunter mentality and will do anything they can to bring a woolly mammoth to the table to feed the clan. The only objective is to stay employed. Women - especially after spending a dozen years in college - seem to develop a 'the world owes me' attitude and are much more vocal if they're unhappy. My wife has changed five or so jobs in the same amount of time I've been on the SAME company. She's had 4 or 5 in the same time I've been working for the same guy. Awkward. Every few years she gets all freaked out about something, finds something else, quits, repeat, repeat... She does not understand a basic concept. They call it work and they pay you because its, well, WORK. They don't care that you have a PhD. There's plenty of those to go around. It's all about what have you done for me lately.

More work stress reflects on personal life in a way far more than it does on men. If I have a bad day at the office the moment I get in the car it's gone. In her case she'll carry the grudge for weeks. A lot of it is her, of course, but I've seen it in many married women with a career. Even the one who wanted to be a university president, and kept quitting every 3 years when she'd not be chosen. She worked in half a dozen universities before she made president...

Also you have the risk of getting stuck with a workaholic... Baaaaad.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

I wonder about the question 'Do you agree?',

These are conclusions from scientific studies, you can't place an opinion, personal experience or anecdotical evidence on the same place as a study. But OK, for the sake of the discussion:

I can only say I have seen many pieces of evidence supporting the trends mentioned. 

But: The modern marriage problems with high educated career women are mixed with common high rates of sexual promiscuity and divorce on all levels of society. So it is also possible that if you could strip the common influences of that all from the career women portion of the research there may be not so much of a problem at all.

Yes, some career women will divorce hubby because of his marital malfunctioning, but that could also be the case if the same women had no educution and was a stay at home mum with the wishes for a greater house, bigger car, and shooting star career for him.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

The article takes bits and pieces from old studies and then twists them... 

He starts out talking about career women being a problem and then switches to talking about women who are the primary bread winner. The two are not the same. 

It's an amateurish article written by someone who picked through studies to find ones that fit his view of things 


Over 70% of all married women work. In about 40% of all marriages, the wife earns as much or more than her husband.

Most married woman earn over 30K a year. The median annual earnings for full-time, year-round women workers in 2012 was $37,791. (Knowledge Center | Catalyst.org)

The lowest divorce rate is in marriages in which the woman has a college degree and is over 25 yrs old at the time of marriage. Most women who earn a college degree have careers.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

questar1 said:


> My exH exploited the modern confusion around gender roles.


My father did this, too, Questar. When I (the youngest of 6) was 3 years old, my father 'allowed' my mother to return to work. She did so to enable the family to get on in life, purchase a home etc, but things didn't work out that way... My mother never knew what my father was earning, and when she started bringing in a salary, he simply reduced his _'contribution_' to the family coffers by that amount - leaving her to juggle the family budget and 100% responsibility for all housework ("women's work") - whilst he enjoyed having more money to spend on himself and his single life.

This situation continued until my mother eventually left work in her 70s. She never got to own that home she'd worked so hard for, and I remember her telling me that the biggest mistake she'd ever made was returning to work! The only one who had benefited from it, was my father.

An extreme case, I know, but the dynamics in my parents' marriage very much shaped who I am today!

We live in a confused Society that is still adapting to so many changes...


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> Oh boy.....I hate to use your post to forward my point of view. But your story echos what I've seen from SAHDs. There is always someone who says it works for me, we're happy bla, bla, bla. From what I've seen its allowed men that were bottom feeders in past generations to take advantage by disguising their laziness as "modern thinking". They don't make a home for the children. They simply sit around and take advantage of mama bear.


:iagree:

What is even more disgusting , is that in some cases the wife also has to come home from work and still cook , wash and do domestic stuff , because SAHD job really just entails picking up the kids up from school , walk the dog and maybe clean the bathroom...
And then there's another issue when it reaches divorce,[ it inevitably does]. The wife ends up with the short end of the stick , financially.

Kinda ironic.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> But...I think you aren't recognizing that even though men and women have always worked together, the roles were always different. Is this not correct?


There were different roles, yes. And what those different roles were have varied considerably over time and culture to culture. But when one's primary source of income is a family farm, and both partners contribute to its maintenance and well-being (even if that pans out as him plowing while you milk the cows and tend the animals and oversee the herb garden) there's far less of a judgement on whose work is more valuable or tangible. The same as when he is a fisherman and your job is to bring it to market, and a dozen other similiar ye olde time scenarios. 

But, now that the "worth" of our labor and efforts is determined by the paycheck someone else gives, I think yes, it has changed our mindset that no paycheck = "worthless" effort. Efforts that contribute to the household as a whole in non-financial ways are not viewed the same. Despite the fact that if someone else provided those services, they would indeed be paid, and likely quite handsomely. 

You could look across TAM and see scores of posts from people who express the same idea. Not earning a paycheck = not contributing to the marriage. It's inherent in the language that we use when husbands with a SAHM make complaints about their wives. That she should be grateful for the "free ride" she's being given. That she shouldn't expect you to "babysit" when you are the wage earner. So, yes, men and women have always had different roles, but I think what's changed is how we look at those different roles. 



> Drumroll...
> 
> I agree with the article big time but not for reasons 1-9. There's reason number 10 but it got eaten by the browser.
> 
> ...


Sorry, in my house my husband is the one who has had a different job every year we've been married, brings work stress home, etc, etc. So, sorry this isn't a "women who go to college always whine about work and feel the world owes them something" thing. It's a personality thing. And men can have it too.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

ReformedHubby said:


> Good for her. I too want my daughter to excel in whatever path she takes. I don't want her marrying a loser either. I guess I'm being somewhat judgmental, but its one thing if a man's busting his tail and his wife makes more than him, quite another if he is sitting around the house living off of her. Maybe I'm just different but I just don't think its in most men's DNA to do this. It just wouldn't feel right.
> 
> I know its PC these days to say men and women are the same. But we're not. If you're a man lying in bed with your wife late at night and you hear a noise. Would you send your wife to check it out? Of course not. There are differences that some would call double standards across both genders that I honestly don't ever see going away, no matter how much society tells us otherwise.


I have a daughter, and I would be more interested in what kind of man he was rather than how much money he made. Sure, we all hope for someone who works and makes a living, as it should be; if he is a "good" person, I'm sure he will be doing that, but to put such high regards on income is just foreign to me. That's just the way I was raised, and I just can't break those thoughts. I know that probably sounds like something one would be taught on Sesame Street, but that's just how I am. If I ever met a woman who cared that much about money, I probably wouldn't be interested.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Starstarfish said:


> There were different roles, yes. And what those different roles were have varied considerably over time and culture to culture. But when one's primary source of income is a family farm, and both partners contribute to its maintenance and well-being (even if that pans out as him plowing while you milk the cows and tend the animals and oversee the herb garden) there's far less of a judgement on whose work is more valuable or tangible. The same as when he is a fisherman and your job is to bring it to market, and a dozen other similiar ye olde time scenarios.
> 
> But, now that the "worth" of our labor and efforts is determined by the paycheck someone else gives, I think yes, it has changed our mindset that no paycheck = "worthless" effort. *Efforts that contribute to the household as a whole in non-financial ways are not viewed the same.* Despite the fact that if someone else provided those services, they would indeed be paid, and likely quite handsomely.


I pretty much agree with what you're saying. The only difference is I think its much more likely for a SAHDs efforts in the household to be deemed worthless than a SAHM. Even before society switched to wage earning both partners contributed. Ideally that's the way it should be to avoid potential issues. 

My reasons for never recommending that a man volunteer to be a SAHD is because I honestly think they are judged even harsher than SAHMs. I also think choosing this path makes them less attractive to their spouses. On the flip side I don't think husbands are less attracted to their wives that stay at home. I'm sure there are many that say their husband is a SAHD and they are still attracted to him. To them I would say you'd be even more attracted to him if he was drawing a pay check.


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

Like if many women even had a choice with this economy. I'm with Elegirl, if this study is twisted to manipulate the reader. If it had any merit it be on the news and everyone would be up in arms about it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Starstarfish said:


> Sorry, in my house my husband is the one who has had a different job every year we've been married, brings work stress home, etc, etc. So, sorry this isn't a "women who go to college always whine about work and feel the world owes them something" thing. It's a personality thing. And men can have it too.


I do not dispute individual circumstances but I think women, backed by the steady paycheck of their husband, may be more likely to act in this manner than the other way around. 

Just a hunch from a lot of professionals I know. It may be wrong and I'm glad that there are counter examples out there.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

I mean, to clarify, I b#$# about work, and have indeed, done so of late right here on TAM. But it isn't because I think the world owes me something, its because sometimes, I just want to rant-fest. But, there's a difference between "I occasionally moan about work" and I quit jobs repeatedly.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Interesting discussion. I am probably considered a knuckle dragging cro magnon, and I admit to being a barbarian, but I see some merit in the article. My wife has been a homemaker for our whole marriage and is much of the reason for our success in marriage (18yrs and counting). I don't think one size fits all and what the article and many can miss is, while statistics can be indicators of the results from certain actions or behaviors, it is our "core" values or characteristics that will define us and give us our results in marriage or any other endeavor.

My wife is a SAHM, and heaven help anyone that looks down on her! I would go through them like a bullet through wet tissue paper. She has worked her butt off investing in our marriage and she does reap the rewards. She is 53 and in better shape than most teens. She shops at clothes stores where the under 20 crowd shops because they are the only clothes that fit her petite figure. 
Other woman are often envious/pissed/? Because they find out she does not have to work (she can if she wants) but still drives a nice car, gets pampered, (nails done, hair at high end salons, massages.etc.), has a nice house in a good neighborhood, and when I walk in next to her. I am 42 and am often mistaken for late twenties, and I have done intense workouts my entire life. I can see it in their faces that they can't comprehend how she has all of it.

They don't understand what a truly fantastic woman she had to be to attract me in the first place, or how much she has invested in our success by supporting me from home while I killed it in the financial arena.

One size does not fit all, but she is all woman(old school) and I am all man(same school). Most women are envious of her, that we have encountered anyway.

I would not be half the man I am today without my SAHM, love goddess!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I live in a neighborhood where the typical couple is just what the poster above described. Killer finances, killer looks, poster kids, domestic help straight out of Central Casting, mansion, cars, and so on.

You'll be amazed at the divorce rate once hubs turns mid late 40's and the wife is traded in, or vice versa. 

It's not like we dual career couples are any better off, of course.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

ConanHub said:


> Interesting discussion. I am probably considered a knuckle dragging cro magnon, and I admit to being a barbarian, but I see some merit in the article. My wife has been a homemaker for our whole marriage and is much of the reason for our success in marriage (18yrs and counting). I don't think one size fits all and what the article and many can miss is, while statistics can be indicators of the results from certain actions or behaviors, it is our "core" values or characteristics that will define us and give us our results in marriage or any other endeavor.
> 
> My wife is a SAHM, and heaven help anyone that looks down on her! I would go through them like a bullet through wet tissue paper. She has worked her butt off investing in our marriage and she does reap the rewards. She is 53 and in better shape than most teens. She shops at clothes stores where the under 20 crowd shops because they are the only clothes that fit her petite figure.
> Other woman are often envious/pissed/? Because they find out she does not have to work (she can if she wants) but still drives a nice car, gets pampered, (nails done, hair at high end salons, massages.etc.), has a nice house in a good neighborhood, and when I walk in next to her. I am 42 and am often mistaken for late twenties, and I have done intense workouts my entire life. I can see it in their faces that they can't comprehend how she has all of it.
> ...


How do you know that women are jealous? People who see jealousy in other are usually themselves jealous. It's called projection. The jealousy of random women is important to you but it may not be to others.

Why waste so much time and energy on what other people think? Is that more important than your fortunate life of comfort, your wife and children? 

Instead of envy she may be a source of concern. Her value is based fleeting attributes - her appearance of youth, her size, her ability to display your wealth, her ability to shop in places frequented by younger women and her ability to build you up. 

Moreover, she is required to invoke looks of envy from other women and amazement that you, a hot wealthy man, stooped to pick her out of the crowd. 

She knows that you can find at lest a million women who would be glad to take her place. Many much younger and more willing to pay their keep by catering to a wealthy man. Her position in life is not envious really. It's definitely precarious and getting more so each passing year. 

If you loved her for the person she is and not what she does for you then she would be a source of envy. If that is what you need to make you feel good about yourself then it's all good..


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> How do you know that women are jealous? People who see jealousy in other are usually themselves jealous. It's called projection. The jealousy of random women is important to you but it may not be to others.
> 
> Why waste so much time and energy on what other people think? Is that more important than your fortunate life of comfort, your wife and children?
> 
> ...


 You are certainly missing the point. My wife could look like an elephant and I would never leave her. I chose her yes, she chose me as well and together we work to build our marriage. Her value is far more than monetary. 
I am also an excellent read of character, I have studied people my whole life. I may be amused by people's reactions but I hardly live for them. My wife and I only care about what each other think. Surprisingly this has pissed a lot of people off.
Part of my post was to respond to some of the derogatory views of SAHM. My wife is very capable and chose her life with me. I have noticed that many women have been very forthcoming with their condescension of my wife or their envy of her position.

Neither of us have ever asked for an opinion of our arrangements but we inevitably get feedback. I think far more preparation should be put into choosing a good mate than for the repercussions of choosing a bad one.
I have seen most people put more effort into buying a car than choosing a spouse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> *I think far more preparation should be put into choosing a good mate than for the repercussions of choosing a bad one.
> I have seen most people put more effort into buying a car than choosing a spouse.*
> [


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

I couldn't have said it better myself.
It's a really funny thing I see all the time , even here.
People getting married, or talking about marriage and preparing for divorce at the same time.

I remember when we decided to get married, my sister in law, my wife's sister who was a " career woman" used o tell her all sorts or negative things about marriage, and what she should do to
" protect herself " in her marriage. Funny thing was , I thought that she looked like she was happily married. She was a career woman and had a great husband who was also a SAHD.
Three years after we got married, her marriage ended after it came out that she was having a torrid sexual affair with another man EVEN BEFORE SHE WAS MARRIED.

Thank goodness my wife never listened to her,nor took any of her advice. My wife told me after that she always suspected that her sister was having an affair with that particular man.
Much of what she was telling my wife was actually a projection of her immoral , broken value system.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

For every derogatory SAHM comment I've seen on the Internets I've seen just as many about daycare and nannies and working moms. It's human nature to criticize others without understanding their situation.

I've been attending PTO meetings as the sole guy and let me tell you, there are instances where these gals make the Taliban look unfocused. Try being the sole guy in the playground with two daughters... Not quite the friendly place 

Anyone looking for a SAHD? Mid 50s, Great with kids, decent cook, excellent landscaper and DIY...


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

It so common for people to congratulate themselves when they have not yet suffered great misfortune in life. It's easy to feel smug until you remember that you are as likely to join the ranks of the unfortunate as they are to recover their fortune. Some don't get until it happens. 

There but for the grace.... You know the rest. Even secular people know that one. I've been very lucky in my life. I did nothing to deserve it so, I can't lord it over my fellow travelers. 

My character is a work in progress in this regard. Work on humility, and generosity is not easy but worth the effort. Good fortune is a blessing and a message. Those to whom much is given, much is expected. 

Celebrating the misfortune of others is turning your back on them when they need your support and sympathy the most. It is the outer demonstration of a hard heart. 

D!ckens and Elliot wrote compelling novels on those themes. It's worth a read. Their prose melts the hardest hearts I think. There will be no one to stand by the miserly when they hit the wall.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

ReformedHubby said:


> *Good for her. I too want my daughter to excel in whatever path she takes. I don't want her marrying a loser either. I guess I'm being somewhat judgmental, but its one thing if a man's busting his tail and his wife makes more than him, quite another if he is sitting around the house living off of her. Maybe I'm just different but I just don't think its in most men's DNA to do this. It just wouldn't feel right. *


Her comment wasn't about a man who didn't work, heck, she'd  on that... I don't think you got the message I was meaning in this.... she will likely make $100,000 a year (after all her loans will be almost that much)... so to her, *ANY MAN who earns LESS IS A LOSER*... doesn't matter his work ethic in life at all, or his character for that matter...he is pre-judged...in realilty, she would deem good men like my husband , her uncle... a LOSER... 

SO what do I think of her comment.. .not really surprised... from reading many posts on here.. WOMEN LOOSE INTEREST IN men who don't earn as much at they do..... so satisfying a career woman would be more difficult than a lower earning women...

Using myself as an example...In terms of what a man earns/ brings home....my standards are pretty low... a blue collar man works fine for me ... all I care is....Can he live within his means...not a drug user, alcoholic, responsible..... I am very careful with $$ so this is of great importance to me...or we'd be fighting non stop... Can I add me & mine has never had a fight over money, cause we've always been on the same page. 



> *I know its PC these days to say men and women are the same. But we're not. If you're a man lying in bed with your wife late at night and you hear a noise. Would you send your wife to check it out? Of course not. There are differences that some would call double standards across both genders that I honestly don't ever see going away, no matter how much society tells us otherwise*.


I agree with you here... of course.. our men should be those protectors, courageous -shielding from any harm, their wife & family.... if we didn't FEEL THIS from them...we would loose respect and admiration for them.. Mine does all he can to protect me & the kids, he wouldn't allow me to take his place for anything remotely dangerous... Oh my NO!!... he'd lay down his life... 

But this wouldn't matter if he was a blue collar Garbage collector or a Doctor... this has no bearing on what he earns..or his profession of success..


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

It's interesting that this thread has turned into another woman bashing fest. One angry poster feeding on another. Again it is revealing. The usual suspects. They should copy and paste their posts.

I wonder why persons with no relationship problems in their lives come here to complain and tear women down. The best male posters help men and are able to avoid descending into the morass of hatred. 

The worse brag and posture like toy soldiers, spreading malice with a pitch fork. I have to wonder if their lives are as good as they say. I doubt it. 

Anyone who holds so much hostility for women leaks it in their relationship. Like many men, they are blissfully unaware until the little lady is done and leaves them. Some actually realize their dysfunction some never do and exist in a constant state of rage. 

Some women will continue to work and take up positions of power and influence. The world will change for you, your children and your children's children. 

Some women will opt, along with their mate, to work on the home front. These women will be no less influential. I can't understand why some women are so hostile towards those of their own gender.

We share the similar experiences as wives and mothers. Similar issues to overcome. One would think that there would be universal empathy. 

Woman are allowed to make mistakes in thinking. Isn't that what life is about learning and changing. Getting to know people with different life styles should increase tolerance not decrease it.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> How do you know that women are jealous? People who see jealousy in other are usually themselves jealous. It's called projection. The jealousy of random women is important to you but it may not be to others.
> 
> Why waste so much time and energy on what other people think? Is that more important than your fortunate life of comfort, your wife and children?
> 
> ...


Did you intend for your post to come across as insulting to his wife? Because that's how I read it. I get where he was coming from in his post. It sounds to me like he resides in upper class suburbia. Being a SAHM in this environment is somewhat different, and yes believe it or not there are women out there that are jealous. Not only that but many are resentful towards their husbands for being unable to afford their lifestyle on one income. How do I know? They openly talk about it with my wife, its not a secret.

These particular types of women are not career women for self fulfillment or security. They are working to get the biggest house, nicest cars, and nicest clothes they can buy. Women like this are indeed envious of a woman like my wife who is a SAHM with a maid that doesn't have to work, and does pretty much whatever she wants whenever she wants. They are upset that what they work so hard for things that are given to women like my wife.

I don't think my wife is worrying that I will leave her or her diminished value with age as you put it. I think she feels extremely blessed and happy to have the life she has. Isn't getting dumped unexpectedly a risk for all couples regardless of who works or doesn't work?


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> It's interesting that this thread has turned into another woman bashing fest. One angry man feeding on another. Again it is revealing. The usual suspects. They should copy and paste their posts.
> 
> I wonder why persons with no relationship problems in their lives come here to complain and tear women down. The best male posters help men and are able to avoid descending into the morass of hatred.
> 
> ...


Honestly the only angry posts I see in here are yours. I commented on this topic because like you its something I feel strongly about. I didn't want to marry a career woman so I didn't. I don't think being a SAHD is a good thing, so I'd advise my sons against it and be judgmental of my daughter's husband if that's the type of man he was.

There is no shortage of women that want to be SAHMs, so whats wrong with preferring one of them over someone who is career focused? Thats not hatred of women, its personal preference of the type of person you want to spend the rest of your life with.


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## Thebes (Apr 10, 2013)

A lot of people that work outside the home cheat, including men. More women have careers now so more women cheat, more opportunity just like men.

Also if the woman has a career she is less likely to stay with a cheater because she knows she can take care of herself and has options.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

ReformedHubby said:


> Honestly the only angry posts I see in here are yours. I commented on this topic because like you its something I feel strongly about. I didn't want to marry a career woman so I didn't. I don't think being a SAHD is a good thing, so I'd advise my sons against it and be judgmental of my daughter's husband if that's the type of man he was.
> 
> There is no shortage of women that want to be SAHMs, so whats wrong with preferring one of them over someone who is career focused? Thats not hatred of women, its personal preference of the type of person you want to spend the rest of your life with.


Where did I ever say anything disparaging about SAHM? That is your issue not mine. You want to create a fight between outside working women and inside working women. 

Im confused, I have not seen one post of a man who is involved in a D with his SAHM who is willing to split the marital assets 50:50. Why are SAHM not valued in D settlements? 

Why do so many men think that their paycheck is more valuable than the woman who made it possible for them to succeed? I've read post after post of men who do not appreciate the job their SAHM does. I hope to see you weight in defending SAHM on these threads. 

Insulting his wife. Come on. I repeated what he said. You think he was insulting his own wife. 

Finally, how do you know what my status is relative to inside or outside work?


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

ReformedHubby said:


> Did you intend for your post to come across as insulting to his wife? Because that's how I read it. I get where he was coming from in his post. It sounds to me like he resides in upper class suburbia. Being a SAHM in this environment is somewhat different, and yes believe it or not there are women out there that are jealous. Not only that but many are resentful towards their husbands for being unable to afford their lifestyle on one income. How do I know? They openly talk about it with my wife, its not a secret.
> 
> These particular types of women are not career women for self fulfillment or security. They are working to get the biggest house, nicest cars, and nicest clothes they can buy. Women like this are indeed envious of a woman like my wife who is a SAHM with a maid that doesn't have to work, and does pretty much whatever she wants whenever she wants. They are upset that what they work so hard for things that are given to women like my wife.
> 
> I don't think my wife is worrying that I will leave her or her diminished value with age as you put it. I think she feels extremely blessed and happy to have the life she has. Isn't getting dumped unexpectedly a risk for all couples regardless of who works or doesn't work?


One poster stated that every professional couple he knows is D. That is laughable. 50% of couples D. In fact, D among husband and wife high earners is actually lower than the general population. Look it up.

Why are these men so invested in spreading the myth that a woman who wants to reach her potential can look forward to D? It's the opposite. Nothing to fear. 

I do know women who get off of the career tract to care for their kids and then get back on when kids are older. They are married to men in their field. Since they have both roles, I doubt that they are hostile towards other SAHM. 

Most of the professional women I know are married to men they met in professional school. Maybe it is generational and demographics. I think there are studies on the adults coming of age now. 

Men who are marrying at this time seem to prefer women at their level of education as much as woman do. It's probably the economy that drives these selections. You can look that up too. At one time Dr married nurses now they marry Dr.


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## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> One poster stated that every professional couple he knows is D. That is laughable. 50% of couples D. In fact, D among husband and wife high earners is actually lower than the general population. Look it up.
> 
> Why are these men so invested in spreading the myth that a woman who wants to reach her potential can look forward to D? It's the opposite. Nothing to fear.
> 
> ...


:smthumbup:

I want a working wife just as much as many women want a working husband.

I don't see it as taking away from the marriage but adding to it.


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## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

john117 said:


> I've been attending PTO meetings as the sole guy and let me tell you, there are instances where these gals make the Taliban look unfocused. Try being the sole guy in the playground with two daughters... Not quite the friendly place


I've noticed this too. Men who participate in their children's lives as much as a mom is "supposed" to do is seen as creepy.

I've taken relatives' children to playgrounds by myself and noticed the "who is he and will he try and kidnap my kid."

People say they want men more involved in the lives of their children but I think that's BS. It's seen as creepy for men to care about the kids as much as women care.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> Where did I ever say anything disparaging about SAHM? That is your issue not mine. You want to create a fight between outside working women and inside working women.
> 
> Im confused, I have not seen one post of a man who is involved in a D with his SAHM who is willing to split the marital assets 50:50. Why are SAHM not valued in D settlements?
> 
> ...


I don't know if you are a SAHM or not. Based on my interpretation of your posts you feel that most women that go down the path of being SAHMs will end up getting left by their husbands at some point. I guess I found that offensive. 

Neither choice is bad if it works for both parties, I took your posts to mean that any women that chooses the SAHM path is destined to be unappreciated and broke. That may not be what you intended, but that's what I took from them.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I have two kids worth of piano, sports, preschool, PTO, doctor, etc appointments worth in my belt. Major league weirdness... When the wife would show up with the regularity of a comet once a year they'd go: We did not know your mom is alive


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> At one time Dr married nurses now they marry Dr.


That worked so well for me :rofl:. A lot of my PhD friends and myself did that by virtue of the eternity it takes to get the degree... You're in college well into your late 20s or more. Then if you go into academia you get into the fellowship and then the tenure game, if you go the industry route you get into the layoffs and promotions game, and it basically never settles.


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## reesespieces (Aug 3, 2009)

john117 said:


> For every derogatory SAHM comment I've seen on the Internets I've seen just as many about daycare and nannies and working moms. It's human nature to criticize others without understanding their situation.
> 
> I've been attending PTO meetings as the sole guy and let me tell you, there are instances where these gals make the Taliban look unfocused. Try being the sole guy in the playground with two daughters... Not quite the friendly place
> 
> Anyone looking for a SAHD? Mid 50s, Great with kids, decent cook, excellent landscaper and DIY...


You're right about that. People also like to assume that what worked out for their life should work out for others, or else you're an idiot. Experiencing that right now, and I know I won't be able to be a SAHM anytime soon, if ever. I am currently tiptoeing the line and witnessing the nastiness from both sides. Being a parent has to be a lot of work (I'm not one so I won't pretend here) so it doesn't make any sense to look at other parents and assume their lives MUST be worse or missing something or whatever just because it's different. 

I think when all is said and done, whenever the marriage is no longer the focus is when things go downhill.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

john117 said:


> I have two kids worth of piano, sports, preschool, PTO, doctor, etc appointments worth in my belt. Major league weirdness... When the wife would show up with the regularity of a comet once a year they'd go: We did not know your mom is alive


I have 3 kids so many times we can't both go - someone needs to stay home with the younger ones. The kids pick who they want to go and they often pick "daddy". No disrespect towards me they just don't get as much time with him as they do me. 

They don't think I'm alive either but just goes to prove they have no idea how our family works.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

ReformedHubby said:


> I don't know if you are a SAHM or not. Based on my interpretation of your posts you feel that most women that go down the path of being SAHMs will end up getting left by their husbands at some point. I guess I found that offensive.
> 
> Neither choice is bad if it works for both parties, I took your posts to mean that any women that chooses the SAHM path is destined to be unappreciated and broke. That may not be what you intended, but that's what I took from them.


That's your interpretation of what I said because that the conflict you apparently face yourself. 

My mother and her mother, my grandmother, did not work. My grandfather was a drunk and abuser but he was a good provider. My grandmother had 7 children and she could not leave because she had no skills. 

She and her children would have ended up on public assistance. I mentioned my family situation and what my mother told me. It was good advice based on her experience. 

How did you come away from that with the assumption that I was disrespected SAHM? I am a benefited from a woman who sacrificed by staying at home. 

It is possible to think in a nonlinear pattern. Has it accrued to you that I can respect both SAHM and away from home moms?

I've posted in countless times in the GTD on posts from men who grouse about splitting assets with their SAHM. I've posted in threads where men say that their salary buys them rights from their SAHM. 

This is the very first posts that I have ever seen from men that are respectful of their SAHM wives. Ever. It is only to point out faults of women but it is a start. 

Another thing. No one has pointed this out in the rush to excoriate the evil nature of women. I see more envy, jealousy and spite among men than women, ever. 

They are vicious, sneaky, calculating, relentless, gossiping and two faced. It's a game they are very good at. Female jealousy is the lest of human problems. Fix your own house. 

As I said this thread is interesting in its revelations. 

Men make statement with no doubt that they are right. They never acknowledge when they have been bested. They have fixed ideas about women that will change when they are forced to do so. . 

You notice I don't say some. I am using the same vernacular as the rest of you. 

I'm out.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

My daughters averaged about 99.9% daddy time and 0.1% mommy time. Not an understatement by any stretch. One time my wife attempted to drop my younger one to her Jr. High school and much to my daughters horror drove her to the daycare she hadn't attended in years.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

I'm a SAHM and also a professional who mostly telecommutes. It's funny some days because the professional side of me will chide the SAHM who goes back to bed with a third cup of coffee and a good book instead of getting on with household chores or projects during limited time when the kids are in school. The SAHM side of me sometimes tells the professional in me to pay more attention to work and be more efficient during the limited time the kids are in school. Then both of them gang up on me for lolling about in classes getting a third undergraduate degree while they're trying to hold the household together. (The poet in me makes fun of them in poems at this point.) Once in a while I take a vacation from them all. Last summer I went overseas and interned as a journalist for 6 weeks, and then complained because nobody watched the home front while I was gone (and there were consequences, as landlord did questionable things while I was away we are still dealing with.)

All in all, people are people. It's not about SAHM or being professional, or following your life dream or just being a lazy bones reprobate who takes off to Mongolia or somewhere like that and ignores responsibilities for long stretches of time. It's about adapting and keeping your principles upheld, whatever those might be. If your principles aren't valuable to whatever lifestyle you want for yourself and your family, it doesn't matter what you do with each 24 hours, it will fall short and be found lacking.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *ReformedHubby said*: *There is no shortage of women that want to be SAHMs, so whats wrong with preferring one of them over someone who is career focused? Thats not hatred of women, its personal preference of the type of person you want to spend the rest of your life with*.


 My husband would support me in whatever I wanted to do.. this is worth gold to me....

I ran into an old friend at a local fair a few months back....she was always a happy SAHM...she was going on how her husband is now pressuring her to work...escalating to cutting her down saying all women work now, what is wrong with her...get with the program type thing..this really hurt her... she felt rejected, and worthless.. so she will get with the program to appease him... I remember feeling a great sense of thankfulness walking away from that conversation that I was married to man like my husband..

Chances are though....maybe they were falling short on their bills...needed more of an income.. I know they were doing many repairs to their house....she didn't go into that with me though.. 




> *Homemaker_Numero_Uno said*:
> 
> All in all, people are people. It's not about SAHM or being professional, or following your life dream or just being a lazy bones reprobate who takes off to Mongolia or somewhere like that and ignores responsibilities for long stretches of time.
> 
> *It's about adapting and keeping your principles upheld, whatever those might be. If your principles aren't valuable to whatever lifestyle you want for yourself and your family, it doesn't matter what you do with each 24 hours, it will fall short and be found lacking.*






southbound said:


> *I have a daughter, and I would be more interested in what kind of man he was rather than how much money he made. Sure, we all hope for someone who works and makes a living, as it should be; if he is a "good" person, I'm sure he will be doing that, but to put such high regards on income is just foreign to me.* That's just the way I was raised, and I just can't break those thoughts. I know that probably sounds like something one would be taught on Sesame Street, but that's just how I am. If I ever met a woman who cared that much about money, I probably wouldn't be interested.


We think very much alike.. I'd feel the same for my daughter, just wanting her to find a quality man of character, I would not look down on him if he was not a high wage earner... I would care greatly how he treated her..this being the most important of all.... fine character is harder to find in a person over doing well financially... they are 2 different animals...

And it does appear how we are raised surely influences our world view.. for instance.. Having 5 sons...

Example... I've asked our 2 teens...& our college son about their feelings...(they know they can say any darn thing to me.. I want THE TRUTH....even if I may not like it, we're just open like that)...I asked them if they look down on me.. if they felt I wasted my potential....could have done more with my life... just what their thoughts are of women who live their lives in the home... they all think this is honorable, our 3rd son even said a hearty "F*** NO" (a little carried away on the expression at times)...but ya know...they were raised like this... and have seen it has worked well for us as a family..

Then they have a good friend...visits often to our house... the top brain in 11th grade... raised by 2 full time working parents...very nice income between them both...I asked him one day *his thoughts on this*...... he said he would want his wife to work.. wouldn't seem right otherwise....this is what he knows... he WAS RAISED like that.. and obviously enjoyed his home life as well.. true, they have a nicer house, newer cars, take bigger vacations... so there you go...

How we are raised many times influences our outlook..IF it was a good experience, anyway.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> It sounds to me like he resides in upper class suburbia. Being a SAHM in this environment is somewhat different, and yes believe it or not there are women out there that are jealous.


Alright, I'll be up front - I'm jealous. I just want to live in upper class suburbia.


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## wise (Sep 1, 2013)

A person will cheat regardless of their career. SAHW cheat. Career women cheat. Job women cheat. College girls cheat. High school girls cheat. 

I don't understand the point of this article. When I was in college interning at a big firm, all the married men lived through me. How was my weekends? Who's the new girl? Pictures? Etc. etc. When hiring women, if they had boobs or asses bigger than their head and were skinny = automatic hire. 

Don't marry career men either. They f*ck these secretary girls all the time. They hate how boring their SAHW's are. They rather be at happy hour than eating dinner with the family. They complain about lack of sex and how vanilla it is. I've heard "don't be an idiot like me and get married" thousands of times from husbands. 

Such a stupid article.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Starstarfish said:


> Alright, I'll be up front - I'm jealous. I just want to live in upper class suburbia.


Well, since everyone in this thread is painting with broad strokes I have to advise you against this. Upper class suburbanites are soulless selfish individuals who only care about themselves. They live to compete against one another in the pursuit of material goods. Don't even get me started on the kids, they are all over privileged entitled little monsters with no respect for adults.

Adultery is rampant. Both the men and women carry on affairs with people half their age. There is no hope for happiness if you pursue this path.

I am just kidding of course. Just figured I would do what everyone else in this thread is doing.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

I agree that some of the sentiments are a bit out of line, but to be fair - what was the purpose of that one post other than to rile people up? You make a post about how your life is perfect, and how everyone is -so jealous- about how your wife is 40 + perfect hot, and petite and slim like Natalie Portman (yes, that's a hyperbole, but I'm really not sure that 40+ women shopping in Charlotte Russe should be brag-worthy), how you "killed it" in the financial market, etc. 

I mean, that post could have been made without all the gratuitous details about how awesome your life is, on a website full of people whose lives and marriages, are quite clearly not that perfect.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Starstarfish said:


> I agree that some of the sentiments are a bit out of line, but to be fair - what was the purpose of that one post other than to rile people up? You make a post about how your life is perfect, and how everyone is -so jealous- about how your wife is 40 + perfect hot, and petite and slim like Natalie Portman (yes, that's a hyperbole, but I'm really not sure that 40+ women shopping in Charlotte Russe should be brag-worthy), how you "killed it" in the financial market, etc.
> 
> I mean, that post could have been made without all the gratuitous details about how awesome your life is, on a website full of people whose lives and marriages, are quite clearly not that perfect.



Really?
A husband feels proud with his wife and says so on a public forum dedicated to monogamous marriages and his post is considered as
designed to " rile other people up?" 

Are you saying that this website is only for people with bad marriages ?
Are other people whose marriages are good , allowed to post about their marriages , or should they just keep quiet?


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

I feel a bit the same like Starfish, the bragging husbands, I have seen them, the wife quiet...

'When there is no arguing at all in a relation, one of the two is living in silent despair' - heard that once, it describes quite a few marriages.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

We'll have to agree to disagree on interpretation of intent and tone, CM. I didn't get the "this is my post about how proud I am of my wife" vibe off that post. I've gotten that vibe from your (CM) posts before, and it's a different feeling. 



> Are you saying that this website is only for people with bad marriages ?
> Are other people whose marriages are good , allowed to post about their marriages , or should they just keep quiet?


Anyone is free to post whatever they like, within the confines of the rules of the board, of course. Whether their marriage is good, bad, or ugly. I never suggested otherwise. But as a reader of said posts, isn't it my (or anyone's) freedom to feel negatively about the tone and nature of some of those posts? 

Also, when did being a braggart become a positive trait? I was always taught that was rude.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

Also, it just seems to me there's a double standard here. Men can post how they don't want career women, don't believe career women are good for marriages, freely admit that being a SAHM is what other women really want. If you have a SAHW and you have money, if the choice worked well for you, the inference seems to be that your wife is a -higher quality of woman- than the kind who have to work. That something in her nature makes her more worthy of that lifestyle than someone else. That working women care less about their marriages, regardless of the reasons or circumstances they are working. 

But at the same time, I was a SAHM, and when I started my personal thread about our financial problems - what were the first things people said to me? "It's 2013 - you do realize he's not the only one who could be working." So, while people praise SAHMs, the minute something goes south in the financial department, that's the first thing blamed. 

So how should a female TAM poster look at that? That yes - being a SAHM is a positive thing, good for marriages, worthy of commendation. But if things don't work out that you have a maid and live in the epic suburbs, then its -your fault- for the choice -you- made not to work. 

And, if so many vocal male posters are "pro-SAHM" why isn't there more lash-back against a lot of the crap that gets posted in other thread? I mean go over to the Politics section and say something in the thread that infers that because of washing machines and vacuum cleaners, SAHMs are pointless leeches who should get nothing in the case of a divorce because they only "consumed resources without producing them." But when there's free-reign to make disparaging comments about SAHM all over TAM, the supposed support seems a little thin.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Funny.I never got the view that TAM was supposed to be representative of anything but good , healthy marriages.

Really , I don't see any double standard.

My wife and I run a business together and she makes the same amount as me. We have separate finances, and I try to promote that on TAM, is that too a double standard because other couples here follow the joint finances model and prefer it?


I think politics clouding our minds.
Politic tends to make people into mindless zombies following the crowd instead of thinking of what's best for _their_ situation.

That's why so many marriages are in trouble, and people don't even know _why_ their marriages are in trouble.

A double standard can only apply if there is an overall standard, and as far as I know, every marriage is different because the dynamics of that relationship are different.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

This is a marriage forum where people come when things go badly. 

Therefore I would infer that many of the men who come here with SAHW's probably aren't thrilled with it. These wives likely aren't putting much into the marriage and now the men may have to give them half of their hard earned cash if they choose to leave.

On the flip side I've seen just as many homemakers screwed because their husbands have cheated or are abusive and they can't leave because they can't support themselves. They live in near poverty because they've been at home for years and have no degree or marketable skills.

Being a homemaker is risky business for both men and women when things go wrong either financially or within the marriage. People need to start realizing this before making such a huge life altering decision.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Yes.

But there's another side which you all are failing to see and I have also seen threads here on it.
In particular, one poster had an entire thread running for pages in the private section on it.
Her husband was a SAHD and he did absolutely nothing , she had to come home and do housework. He husband lived off her.
She couldn't face divorce because the same rule applied.She would have to pay him money.
And I've seen that in a few other cases, even famous ones.
That's what RF was referring to earlier on.

That's what I'm referring to when I say that politics cannot solve marital problems.

You can be as educated as hell and your husband a dedicated SAHD and still unhappy in a marriage.[ The eg I gave]
You can be a SAHM and dedicated as hell and still unhappy.
You can be equally employed , earning the same amount of money and still be unhappy because you and your spouse cannot agree.

Any which way you look at it, if you go into a marriage with the wrong person or the wrong attitude, it cannot, and will not work.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Caribbean Man said:


> *Every marriage is different because the dynamics of that relationship are different.*


...and on that note, every written article, every book, every long winded view including my own... may only have elements of truth to another couple, they can pick & choose what resonates with them and throw the rest out, reject it...and comment on it... the discussion is still worthwhile anyway...so I feel. 

I love "*Freedom of the Press*"...even views I vehemently disagree with...I wouldn't take their right away as mine would be taken with it... the day we all have to conform to the same rules & expectations, making us a cardboard copy of each other.. I hope I will be under the dirt







. 

Can we all just accept we don't all think the same or want the same things... what one couple prioritizes may not be the same as his/her neighbor.... and it's Ok.. so long as 2 are on the same page in their marriages.. maybe a thread should be started on that dilemma....as this can cause much turmoil ..and heartache...


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Starstarfish said:


> Also, it just seems to me there's a double standard here. Men can post how they don't want career women, don't believe career women are good for marriages, freely admit that being a SAHM is what other women really want. If you have a SAHW and you have money, if the choice worked well for you, the inference seems to be that your wife is a -higher quality of woman- than the kind who have to work. That something in her nature makes her more worthy of that lifestyle than someone else. That working women care less about their marriages, regardless of the reasons or circumstances they are working.
> 
> But at the same time, I was a SAHM, and when I started my personal thread about our financial problems - what were the first things people said to me? "It's 2013 - you do realize he's not the only one who could be working." So, while people praise SAHMs, the minute something goes south in the financial department, that's the first thing blamed.


I hear you Starfish. I guess my biggest issue with this thread is that like a lot of other threads on TAM people seem to fill in the blanks and insinuate negatives that aren't necessarily what the poster intended (admittedly I sometimes do this too). 

I certainly didn't mean that women who don't have to work because they married well are somehow better people or entitled to more. 

I'll admit that I really haven't paid much attention to the opinions that people on TAM have about SAHMs. I don't think the criticism is appropriate. Their contribution to the family in my opinion in a lot of ways has greater value than the paycheck.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> ...and on that note, every written article, every book, every long winded view including my own... may only have elements of truth to another couple, they can pick & choose what resonates with them and throw the rest out, reject it...and comment on it... the discussion is still worthwhile anyway...so I feel.


And it's as simple as that.

When we got married, my wife wanted to stay at home , I wanted her to continue working, and attend school part time and at least ,attend University.
I wanted a CAREER WIFE. That's what was thought of as a
" modern woman" back then, and I fully embraced it.In fact I embraced it so much that I wanted it for her even though she didn't want that.
IT CAUSED MASSIVE PROBLEMS.
IT CAUSED MASSIVE MISUNDERSTANDING.

Solution:

I decided and we agreed to start up a business in which we both worked from home and built. Today we reap the rewards both financially and in our marriage, we work as a TEAM.

I will say it again,
Politics cannot solve any problem in a marriage , but working together , and common sense ,
Always does.

Politics make good discussion.
Full stop.


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## JJG (Mar 9, 2011)

I disagree with the article. As long as there is mutual respect and love between the two people in the marriage then it doesnt matter who works and who stays at home. The problems start when they stop appreciating eachother.

My opinion is based on a childhood where when I was young my mum stayed at home to look after 3 children. Then when he was 40 my dad was forced to retire and my mum took up the work mantle and dad stayed at home to look after us plus my mums elderly parents (who lived with us by then).

Now I am in a high paying job doing very well moneywise and unfortunately my husband has just been made redundant. If we had kids right now I would be happy for him to stay at home. There is no need to add stress to life worrying about whether the working spouse has a p*nis or not.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I think ReformedHubby and CarribeanMan Understood my post well. I was simply illustrating A section of my life. I try not to directly attack people With differing viewpoints and myself. My illustration Was certainly not meant to cause offense, it is simply my life.
I found the twisting of my words and the outright fabrication of facts in my life to be an amusing but ineffective way to make a point. My wife and I both sacrificed and invested heavily in our marriage and are reaping the rewards. Among the other women I mentioned, many have a larger rock on their finger or drive a nicer car than my wife and they are still envious or contemptuous of her situation. I think its funny because if they had made the same commitment to marriage and family that we had they could easily have the same situation.

I stated in my original post that while I believed the study had some merit, I also believed it missed on a few points. 
Basically I think you reap where you invest.
My wife chose to take care of the home and raise children, I chose a career with limited travel and the most benefits (I could be making 3 to 4 times what I do now if I didn't mind not being there for my wife and kids)

Also, some of the envious women are dear friends that simply wish they had invested their time differently when they started their families after they see our happiness. Some of these career women are in good marriages but realized that they would have preferred our arrangement to their own.

My wife is not a trophy or some type of silent or "kept " woman. She is quite vital and intelligent and outspoken. She is the administrator of the two of us and helps me direct and manage our finances.
Anyway, hope this clears some things up. I am very proud of my wife and perhaps I have bragged about her, but I am no braggart. I do not think we are better than others.
We do really enjoy the life we have both, as a team, built and it does seem that many in our social circle long for as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> I think its funny because if they had made the same commitment to marriage and family that we had they could easily have the same situation.


Just because other people aren't as well off financially, doesn't mean they aren't committed to marriage and family. There are many women who make the same choice as your wife, only to find themselves divorced rather than being the envy of town. Life is far more complex than good choices = good outcomes, and bad choices = bad outcomes.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> I am just kidding of course. Just figured I would do what everyone else in this thread is doing.


I have lived in very high end suburbia for 12 years - as in, 6,000+ sq ft homes, domestic help, exotic cars, private schools, the works. 

Lots of selfish people who would think little of laying off a hundred people at work or banging their nanny or secretary. 

Marriage is the least if their concerns in many cases, and if it ever is, it's because of divorce court. Heck, one of the main advertisers on radio is a divorce firm aiming to protect "men's rights and wealth" 

Which would be funny in itself except the county family court is so biased against men it's not even funny.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

john117 said:


> I have lived in very high end suburbia for 12 years - as in, 6,000+ sq ft homes, domestic help, exotic cars, private schools, the works.
> 
> Lots of selfish people who would think little of laying off a hundred people at work or banging their nanny or secretary.


There are people like this but I think most are decent. I'll concede one thing though, which I'm sure that some of the posters in this thread will say, "told ya so". I do think adultery is a bit higher than average. I'm not sure why though.


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

Well a friend of mine passed away last week, 34 years of age. His wife is now left with six mouths to feed. She has no GED, life is not perfect but don't you think that this is the reality of looking for "a non career woman" as a wife? Sure it must be nice to stay and raise the kids. But what happens if the bread winner dies? I think that even if you choose to stay at home you should look into at least a trade if the need arises. 

Also , I have gladly stepped in during times of unemployment for my spouse. I think the article is not very realistic in the fact that working is not a choice for many and also there are many benefits to having a career woman as a spouse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> There are people like this but I think most are decent. I'll concede one thing though, which I'm sure that some of the posters in this thread will say, "told ya so". I do think adultery is a bit higher than average. I'm not sure why though.


Entitlement mentality and power that yields opportunity.

Most wealthy people being "decent" would depend on what the definition of "decent" is. If you're in their circle, sure. If not...

When I lived in a modest home and had a concern I would bring it up with the neighbor and we'd solve it. Here it often takes homeowner association action or legal threat to get them to do what they are supposed to do. 

Maybe they're decent but I have not seen that. Maybe some day... Money twists people's minds in strange ways.


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## loopy lu (Oct 30, 2013)

This is the biggest load of misogynist crap Ive read in a while. 'Dont marry an empowered, independent woman...she might not clean enough for you' 

Ugh.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Starstarfish said:


> Life is far more complex than good choices = good outcomes, and bad choices = bad outcomes.


I could not disagree more. I can only vouch for my experience and those of the people around me but good choices do equal good outcomes. Yes my life is that simple and every person I have ever met is included. I will not claim your life is that simple however, because I do not know your experiences.

If you claim that you have made good choices and received bad results I will believe you but I am really curious as to the particular circumstances in your complex life. :scratchhead:


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> I'll concede one thing though, which I'm sure that some of the posters in this thread will say, "told ya so". I do think adultery is a bit higher than average. I'm not sure why though.


It is a sick , narcissistic sense of false entitlement.
Very pervasive among today's crowd. Like a pernicious wilt , eating away at the very core of the social order.
Narcissism is the disease of modern man.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

john117 said:


> Maybe they're decent but I have not seen that. Maybe some day... Money twists people's minds in strange ways.


I don't think it's just money, because I see the same sense of false entitlements even among the ordinary folks.

Money just helps to amplify the deficits in one's character before it came.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> I could not disagree more. I can only vouch for my experience and those of the people around me but good choices do equal good outcomes. Yes my life is that simple and every person I have ever met is included. I will not claim your life is that simple however, because I do not know your experiences.
> 
> If you claim that you have made good choices and received bad results I will believe you but I am really curious as to the particular circumstances in your complex life. :scratchhead:


:iagree:

And there's a term for that type of logic.[which you are replying to]
It's called circular logic.

It's the same as saying
" _Why bother to finish school, the economy isn't doing well anyway , and I'm not guaranteed a job._."

While it sounds logical, it is a false premise because in order to live you must have a job. An education prepares you for a job _opportunity_ when it comes.

Likewise , making correct choices in a marriage does not automatically guarantee a happy marriage, but continuously making the right choices,increases exponentially , your chances of success, both in the present and in the future.

Nothing is guaranteed in this life , except death.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

What?! Poor people cheat as well???


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Cheating is only human.
Pastors cheat, their wives cheat, Church members cheat, atheist cheat [ my father was an atheist and a notorious womaniser.]
SAHD cheat, career women cheat , SAHM cheat , career husbands cheat , in fact anybody is potientally a cheater.

So this entire excercise in flaming is a waste of time.

If a man doesn't want to marry a career woman then it's his choice, just like if a woman doesn't wan to marry a short man because he's short. No sexism in that , just her preference which she's entitled to. She has to live with him.
If a man prefers a to marry a woman of a certain race, does that ,make him racist?
Absolutely not.
If a man wants to marry a " career woman" does that automatically make him a " good man?"
Yes?
Well get this, there are many, many married couples facing the divorce courts right now, because of unfaithfulness or with irreconcilable differences, who are both career oriented , modern, forward thinking people in egalitarian marriages.
Getting the politics right didn't guarantee their marriage would succeed.
Getting the politics right but marrying the wrong person is still a recipie for failure.


The only solution is to get married to someone you are compatible with. Someone who loves and appreciates you for who you are , and someone who values your contribution , whether you are a SAHM , a career woman or just an ordinary Jane Doe.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> I can only vouch for my experience and those of the people around me but good choices do equal good outcomes.


Well, there's always the "good choice" and "I thought it was a good choice" difference too. As ultimately, only hindsight reveals whether a choice was really "good" or not. (Assuming we are defining good = positive outcome.)



> If you claim that you have made good choices and received bad results I will believe you but I am really curious as to the particular circumstances in your complex life.


Please feel free to PM me. There's some stuff I don't really want to get into on the open general forums, but - drop a line, I'll give some more of my background.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Starstarfish said:


> Well, there's always the "good choice" and "I thought it was a good choice" difference too. As ultimately, only hindsight reveals whether a choice was really "good" or not.


I see your point and agree with you. My wife had two failed marriages before me, she is my only, and I know she did not set out to make bad choices with the first two.
She did learn from the experiences even though she was hurt badly.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> I think ReformedHubby and CarribeanMan Understood my post well. I was simply illustrating A section of my life. I try not to directly attack people With differing viewpoints and myself. My illustration Was certainly not meant to cause offense, it is simply my life.
> I found the twisting of my words and the outright fabrication of facts in my life to be an amusing but ineffective way to make a point. *My wife and I both sacrificed and invested heavily in our marriage and are reaping the rewards.* Among the other women I mentioned, many have a larger rock on their finger or drive a nicer car than my wife and they are still envious or contemptuous of her situation. I think its funny because *if they had made the same commitment to marriage and family that we had they could easily have the same situation.*
> 
> I stated in my original post that while I believed the study had some merit, I also believed it missed on a few points.
> ...


You are making a big mistake in thinking you 'made' your life. It happens all the time with people who got lucky in life, they 'own' the luck and attribute it to their better choices and harder work.

Just until they get hit by a bus in the back, and if 'really lucky' get the chance to rethink how life works and learn to be more modest about their success and more compassionate with people less fortunate.

So I do not think you will be able to understand the other opinions. You just will have to wait. And I have seen people who never learned at all. Missing the whole point of life imho.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> I could not disagree more. I can only vouch for my experience and those of the people around me but good choices do equal good outcomes. Yes my life is that simple and every person I have ever met is included. I will not claim your life is that simple however, because I do not know your experiences.
> 
> If you claim that you have made good choices and received bad results I will believe you but I am really curious as to the particular circumstances in your complex life. :scratchhead:


...Blasphemy?....

But logic will defeat this view also:

Look at the outcome for people hit by the hurricanes, earthquakes etc. Fate hits you whenever it wants. Or God, or the devil. Whatever you like. Or when you have a disabled child, or your wife gets breast cancer. Or some fools blow up the financial system.

Then your choices from that point limit your outcomes drastically. If you mentally stay the same person after terrible circumstances, which people don't.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Starstarfish said:


> Well, there's always the "good choice" and "I thought it was a good choice" difference too. As ultimately, only hindsight reveals whether a choice was really "good" or not. (Assuming we are defining good = positive outcome.)


:iagree:

We tend to make to make choices based on the information available to us at any given time. With the best will in the world, no matter how mindfully / carefully we might make choices, false information can result in bad choices.

The trouble is, when we have a run of bad choices, the brain doesn't forget them. It keeps emotional memories from these experiences and uses them as the background for future decisions. But these memories can lead to flaws in judgment.

It's can be far easier to make sound choices when our lives are running smoothly, and it has a ripple effect on the quality of our lives. Conversely, a run of bad luck, and the stress it brings, can cloud our judgment and cause us to make poor decisions, and we end up in a catch 22.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

See_Listen_Love said:


> You are making a big mistake in thinking you 'made' your life. It happens all the time with people who got lucky in life, they 'own' the luck and attribute it to their better choices and harder work.
> 
> Just until they get hit by a bus in the back, and if 'really lucky' get the chance to rethink how life works and learn to be more modest about their success and more compassionate with people less fortunate.


I don't necessarily see things this way. I think in life we can certainly influence how "lucky" we are with the choices we make. No it doesn't guarantee anything but hard work and investment in anything positive usually pays off. Unforeseeable events can happen, but most people that set their sights on realistic accomplishments and work towards them make it.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

mablenc said:


> Well a friend of mine passed away last week, 34 years of age. *His wife is now left with six mouths to feed. She has no GED, life is not perfect but don't you think that this is the reality of looking for "a non career woman" as a wife? Sure it must be nice to stay and raise the kids. But what happens if the bread winner dies? *I think that even if you choose to stay at home you should look into at least a trade if the need arises.


This is why we have Life Insurance.....we have 6 kids too... we also have money in the bank...we have been debt free for over 7 yrs.. we own 50 acres & our house & property would be worth a very pretty penny ...if I went to sell it... not that I would plan to do this...(but in desperation -it is an option)...they have this thing called "Reverse mortgages " too...another option...I would hate to do that one, as I would love to pass our house down to one of our children someday , to keep it in the family. 

So if this happened to me, I'd have the life Insurance which would be as much as *6 yrs of his working income* ....we have no debt.... Sure I'd have to get a JOB...full time.... but I don't really think it would matter if it was a high paying Job ..(meaning degree necessary)...not given how we have handled our finances over the years.. I wouldn't be living richly -but we never did to begin with, so this wouldn't bother me a whole lot. 

The biggest worry I would have is .. Health insurance, I wouldn't want to pay this out of pocket...that would kill us.. so I would need a Job with those benefits...


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

I have a problem with the one saying a career woman has a dirty house. No way. 

DH and I clean TOGETHER every Sunday damn it!! Our house sparkles!


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

ScarletBegonias said:


> I have a problem with the one saying a career woman has a dirty house. No way.
> 
> *DH and I clean TOGETHER every Sunday damn it!! Our house sparkles!*


It's as simple as that^^^..


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

ReformedHubby said:


> *I don't necessarily see things this way. I think in life we can certainly influence how "lucky" we are with the choices we make.* No it doesn't guarantee anything but hard work and investment in anything positive usually pays off. Unforeseeable events can happen,* but most people that set their sights on realistic accomplishments and work towards them make it.*


Couldn't agree with you more, when I look among others we know...some of our friends. ,his co-workers.....who had higher paying jobs over my husband ...2 income families... less kids...some of them do not even own their own home, or ones that do, living paycheck to paycheck...in debt... blows my mind... how can this [email protected]#$ 

We were very careful savers in our younger years-before we even married... we worked hard to sock it away, when we got our house, we were able to put down near half ....then we cut our mortgage in half from 14 yrs term down to paying it off in 7....

We HATE and near refuse to pay interest....the most I have ever paid on a credit card in our marriage of 24 yrs was $14 - and this was just out of pure curiosity - to see what the bill would be if I didn't pay it in full... I thought it was ridiculous they could charge that much interest, the bill was not even high, I said to myself we could all go out & splurge on some Big Macs & fries for that.. and I never let it happen again... 

If we don't have the money, we aren't starving, it doesn't get bought... we make money off our credit cards too..($300 a year)... 

This isn't Lucky.. it is careful planning... I know I won't be left high & dry if my husband dies on me.. .my biggest worry would not be financial.. It would be the big massive gaping hole left in my heart... missing him... I'd also miss his handy-man work...his working on the cars.... which did save us much over the years..

So yeah...I'd be hoping to find a boyfriend, another man... but even if I never married again..(after all I would need to worry about his not thinking he would get all I owned at that point, I would need to be very careful - to cover our children)... I believe we could make it -because of how we planned in our early years.


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> This is why we have Life Insurance.....we have 6 kids too... we also have money in the bank...we have been debt free for over 7 yrs.. we own 50 acres & our house & property would be worth a very pretty penny ...if I went to sell it... not that I would plan to do this...(but in desperation -it is an option)...they have this thing called "Reverse mortgages " too...another option...I would hate to do that one, as I would love to pass our house down to one of our children someday , to keep it in the family.
> 
> So if this happened to me, I'd have the life Insurance which would be as much as *6 yrs of his working income* ....we have no debt.... Sure I'd have to get a JOB...full time.... but I don't really think it would matter if it was a high paying Job ..(meaning degree necessary)...not given how we have handled our finances over the years.. I wouldn't be living richly -but we never did to begin with, so this wouldn't bother me a whole lot.
> 
> The biggest worry I would have is .. Health insurance, I wouldn't want to pay this out of pocket...that would kill us.. so I would need a Job with those benefits...


Well they were not prepared at all, they are renting. I'm hoping he had life insurance, but it's not like you can ask them during the arranangemts. But insure hope he had it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> I have a problem with the one saying a career woman has a dirty house. No way.
> 
> DH and I clean TOGETHER every Sunday damn it!! Our house sparkles!


Truth be told I remember our house and cars were cleaner when both of us worked. With so many kids home all day it really takes a toll on the house. Don't even get me started on the family car. Pretty sure there are lots of gummi bears, fruit snacks, and goldfish crackers living under the seats. I look at the houses of couples without kids and I marvel at them. I feel like I'm in a museum.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> Truth be told I remember our house and cars were cleaner when both of us worked. With so many kids home all day it really takes a toll on the house. Don't even get me started on the family car. Pretty sure there are lots of gummi bears, fruit snacks, and goldfish crackers living under the seats. I look at the houses of couples without kids and I marvel at them. I feel like I'm in a museum.


When my son visits it's like a hurricane ran through the house.He has to help on Sunday clean up day bc chances are,he made 80% of the mess LOL

We try to clean a bit every day by picking up after ourselves.Dishes are done every night after dinner too so that helps.The worst thing to do is let it pile up bc then you feel like you never get ahead.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

mablenc said:


> Well they were not prepared at all, they are renting. I'm hoping he had life insurance, but it's not like you can ask them during the arranangemts. But insure hope he had it.


 See, this is something that didn't have to happen... Term life insurance is CHEAP, heck at their ages, she would have easily had a policy for almost a million - might have cost $500 a year..(I am guessing ours is not this high)...she could have had it locked in for 20 plus years- if she took it out in their mid 20's for example....or paid more and brought it up to his 60's... they do give blood tests when you take it out to make sure you are not a "heart attack" risk. 

We pay more than that for Home Insurance, it's less than car insurance... life is too uncertain.. I have ALWAYS been a worrier myself.. but I'll never feel this is all bad...as it has forced me to plan ahead... thinking of all that COULD go wrong .... my pessimistic nature to not dream "too big" but keep our feet on the ground...to cover all basis in the event of "WHAT IF???" otherwise I don't think I could sleep at night.. 

I would probably live under a bridge before I would ask to borrow money off of anyone either.... husband is the same .. so we have to depend on ourselves.. 

This is another reason we never liked any form of Risky behavior.. we don't want to end up in the hospital, don't want to die young, or find ourselves in some lawsuit -that could kill us financially too.. . We hope to live to be our ripe old age.... we can't help it if a Drunk Driver plows into us on a country road... sh** happens every day (why I get life insurance on our sons when they start driving too).......

But we can help to not be that drunk driver.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

The only time I would rule a "career woman" out of the picture is due to possible time restraints

Meh


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> No it doesn't guarantee anything but hard work and investment in anything positive usually pays off. Unforeseeable events can happen, but most people that set their sights on realistic accomplishments and work towards them make it.


Tell that to the number of people these days who went to college, and were told if they worked hard, invested in their future, and set goals, they would have jobs. Many now have student debt, and the job situation in the country is bunk. Did they not work hard and invest in their future? Did they not set their sights on realistic accomplishments?



> I believe we could make it -because of how we planned in our early years.


But, to be fair, SA, by what you've said, you found your husband fairly young in life and thus, had him to plan with from that early age, in order to be savers, to work together, etc. But - if you enter your relationship later, later you can be a bit "behind" on that amount of planning together. (This also assumes there were no previous relationships for either partner that had financial consequences.)


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> See, this is something that didn't have to happen... Term life insurance is CHEAP, heck at their ages, she would have easily had a policy for almost a million - might have cost $500 a year..(I am guessing ours is not this high)...she could have had it locked in for 20 plus years- if she took it out in their mid 20's for example....or paid more and brought it up to his 60's... they do give blood tests when you take it out to make sure you are not a "heart attack" risk.



Problem sometimes life insurance doesn't pay out for certain deaths (that's what happened to my mum). Even somethings that would seem careful planning for the future can go t*ts up.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Starstarfish said:


> Tell that to the number of people these days who went to college, and were told if they worked hard, invested in their future, and set goals, they would have jobs. Many now have student debt, and the job situation in the country is bunk. Did they not work hard and invest in their future? Did they not set their sights on realistic accomplishments?
> 
> Tell that to my husband.Saved his money,went to college,set goals for his future.Got a job in his field of education and still couldn't afford to move out of his parents house til a few years ago.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

I'm sorry, SB. That was kind of my thought, I know a lot of people I graduated with who are in similiar situations, don't have jobs in their field and aren't making that much. But they did indeed work hard, got good grades, and invested in their future. 

I just think the assumption that if someone else didn't "make it" they obviously did something wrong, is really flawed.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Starstarfish said:


> I just think the assumption that if someone else didn't "make it" they obviously did something wrong, is really flawed.


:iagree::iagree:


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

TiggyBlue said:


> Problem sometimes life insurance doesn't pay out for certain deaths (that's what happened to my mum). Even somethings that would seem careful planning for the future can go t*ts up.


True...

Having life insurance is a good thing, but it's not going to cover a disability. Statistics show that people under the age of 65 are likely to become disabled than die early. Disability insurance, if you can get it, is a good thing for when the primary breadwinner is out of the workforce. So is having long-term care insurance. You don't necessarily have to be a senior citizen to need round-the-clock care for months or years.. you may need it after one bad accident or illness. Those two can wipe out the best savings, so having it as insurance is better. My two cents..


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

> Originally Posted by Starstarfish
> I just think the assumption that if someone else didn't "make it" they obviously did something wrong, is really flawed.


I was actually told by my eldest sister where I went wrong... As a struggling, hardworking divorced parent of a teenage son, she smugly told me that the big mistake I'd made was divorcing my ex before he'd had time to accumulate enough assets for me to walk away with...

My sisters are all comfortably off. They married young, were SAHMs and had husbands who worked hard to provide for them. I, on the other hand, spent my most financially productive years supporting my son and I and ensuring that he had a good education and went to university.

I mightn't have the financial security that my sisters have, but I've done a lot more with my life than any of them.

My biggest mistake in life was not having the true information about the person I chose to marry... If that makes me a loser - so be it.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

I think it's fine if men don't want to marry women with careers, or do want to marry women with careers. 

For those men who wouldn't marry a woman with a career, however, I wonder what they would tell their daughters...university education and career or none of that, work at Walmart until you can find a man to support you?

I'm curious because I didn't start out thinking about a career. I knew I needed a job to support myself, so university was the way to go to get that. Then I found a job, and realized that if I was going to have to work 40 hours a week in order to support myself, I should darned well get paid as much as possible. So I worked to get into better and better paying jobs over the years. That's how I ended up with a "career" although I still just think of it as the job that enables me to support myself and plan for the future. 

Not everyone can get married out of high school to their forever love who can or will always support them forever. So what do you say to the daughters about what they should do if they don't marry their breadwinner right away? Live at home until they find a husband?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

norajane said:


> For those men who wouldn't marry a woman with a career, however, I wonder what they would tell their daughters...university education and career or none of that, work at Walmart until you can find a man to support you?


I had a career for 20 years before becoming a homemaker.

That said I have 2 young daughters. I will teach them to be able to support themselves which yes I hope means they go to college. Hate to be debbie downer but with the divorce rate at 50% they need to be prepared. To assume some KISA is going to provide for them until they die is naive. Every woman should know how to support themselves.

If they go the career route (vs job) I will teach them to have balance. I will also teach my son the very same thing. It's fine to focus on your career as long as you put forth the same effort in your marriage. Men are just as guilty for putting work first as women are.

I'm done working now but I believe wholeheartedly with what I know now I could juggle a career and family. It's called priorities. Back then they were all screwed up and THAT is why my marriage suffered not because of the career.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

norajane said:


> I think it's fine if men don't want to marry women with careers, or do want to marry women with careers.
> 
> For those men who wouldn't marry a woman with a career, however, I wonder what they would tell their daughters...university education and career or none of that, work at Walmart until you can find a man to support you?
> 
> ...


My answer may surprise you. I have a daughter and I would never tell her to wait on her prince charming. We emphasize academics with our kids over other extracurricular activities. As far as I'm concerned she can do whatever she wants career wise. I would be very disappointed if she decided she didn't want to attend college. She should be fully able to support herself. I don't want her to "need" a man for financial support. 

I know this conflicts with my personal choice in whom I decided to marry, but its not like my wife was sitting around waiting on a man. She had two degrees, one of them in nursing. I knew that she wanted to be a SAHM and that really appealed to me. When I reached a point that she could do this she quit her job as a nurse. It wasn't forced on her though, I think this is when people run into problems.

I do feel like I need to acknowledge that part of the reason why I like it better when she isn't working is because she focuses so much more on me and the kids. Perhaps this is selfish of me, but having lived both sides of it I prefer that she doesn't work. Nursing is not an easy field, she seems a lot less stressed now.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

See_Listen_Love said:


> You are making a big mistake in thinking you 'made' your life. It happens all the time with people who got lucky in life, they 'own' the luck and attribute it to their better choices and harder work.
> 
> Just until they get hit by a bus in the back, and if 'really lucky' get the chance to rethink how life works and learn to be more modest about their success and more compassionate with people less fortunate.


I actually don't believe in luck, so we are working from different views of life. However, it is a mistake to think I do not have compassion. In my short illustration of my life, I compared my situation with couples who had no major crisis in their lives. I do not think anyone who has had hard knocks in life makes them a loser.
I am speaking of things that we have control over. Obviously a crisis caused by things outside of our control is something we can only respond to and try to overcome.
Part of the reason I talk highly of my wife is because of what she has overcome. I was no prize when she met me and she was a two time divorcee who was 11 years my senior and a single mom.
I admire anyone who does not give up and I do not measure success by a persons station in life.
BTW, I love strong women. I married the strongest woman I know. 
Peace folks.


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

I don't see the need for 'don't marry a career woman' or 'don't marry a sahm'. Just marry someone who is fundamentally compatible with you and has the same want's in a family., no need to tear others down if their desires are different to yours.


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## reesespieces (Aug 3, 2009)

ConanHub said:


> I could not disagree more. I can only vouch for my experience and those of the people around me but good choices do equal good outcomes. Yes my life is that simple and every person I have ever met is included. I will not claim your life is that simple however, because I do not know your experiences.
> 
> If you claim that you have made good choices and received bad results I will believe you but I am really curious as to the particular circumstances in your complex life. :scratchhead:


I've made a lot of good choices that yielded bad results, but it's life I guess. I don't live my life by circular logic, but people do often think that I'm lying about my results or didn't do anything right.


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

I prefer career women. I usually have more to talk about and share more interests and goals with them.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Starstarfish said:


> *But, to be fair, SA, by what you've said, you found your husband fairly young in life and thus, had him to plan with from that early age, in order to be savers, to work together, etc. But - if you enter your relationship later, later you can be a bit "behind" on that amount of planning together. (This also assumes there were no previous relationships for either partner that had financial consequences.*)


I would have been saving even if I was alone..NO doubt ..what you say about all these people going to college today is true too, there is not enough jobs anymore and people are strapped with Debt.. this is one thing we didn't have to deal with, he took a little computer schooling, got a certificate, never got a decent job from it, the cost was only $3,000 back then -paid off even before he went. 

I also know with the way I am, if a guy wasted money, I'd have to leave him cause we'd fight too much.. unless he had it to burn of course... but even Jobs like that can come & go..



> *TiggyBlue said*:* Problem sometimes life insurance doesn't pay out for certain deaths (that's what happened to my mum). Even somethings that would seem careful planning for the future can go t*ts up.*


 I agree.. all we can count on is ... Taxes and Death.. right... 

I could come down with cancer tomorrow...or my husband...& our health insurance run dry... one of my biggest worries in life.....or some debilitating disease that steals our minds or bodies.... In some cases, I'd rather just let myself die.. instead of wasting resources to prolong something that will only give another 6 months or so. I wouldn't want to burden my kids either. 

There is no guarantees to any of us.. LIVING itself is a RISK.... so do it to your greatest enjoyment...while we have time here....and be responsible..what else can we do?? when the sH** happens, you pull yourself up and do what you need to do.... that is all that can be expected from any of us, isn't it... Career woman or SAHM who has money put away for an unforseeable situation. 

If I am able bodied, I assume I will be able to find work....I may be on the poorer side the rest of my life... but if I can manage, I figure it's something to  about it.. it's my risk. 

I have no desire to change my lifestyle because suddenly I am allowing a fear for a future event to consume me...this alone would steal my JOY in the here & now.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

TiggyBlue said:


> *I don't see the need for 'don't marry a career woman' or 'don't marry a sahm'. Just marry someone who is fundamentally compatible with you and has the same want's in a family., no need to tear others down if their desires are different to yours.*


And I think this is the winning post that settles this discussion :smthumbup:.... 

For us....when I worked back in the day, my husband hated it, he'd come home, I'd kiss him out the door, and get back at bedtime, he needed to babysit our son...paying a babysitter would have defeated the purpose.. I remember him complaining I wasn't home enough...

I cared about how he felt...we didn't need the $$, I slowed down. ..this was good for us....I didn't work as much but we always did our own home projects together..anything to save a buck....so this was kinda our compromise...so looking back...we have a slew of memories working on our house, the vehicles... doing things a little the hard way.... but we did it together..


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

reesespieces said:


> I've made a lot of good choices that yielded bad results, but it's life I guess. I don't live my life by circular logic, but people do often think that I'm lying about my results or didn't do anything right.


I have tried so many times , and failed at starting up different type of businesses, that I have enough stories to entertain .

The secret in understanding this choice / outcomes dilemma is simple.
There's nothing guaranteed in life so never give up on trying. But this is a choice. You choose your perspective / outlook.
Bad results means that you have failed, but it doesn't mean that you are a failure.
There's nothing such as "the wheel of fortune " in life.
There's seized opportunity and wasted opportunity.
The trick is to be able to recognize opportunity, because it often comes disguised crisis and hard work.

One thing fails , try another , just keep on trying.
Failure doesn't mean you're a failure , it means try something different or try harder.
Life is an obstacle course.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

A career woman can be an asset to a marriage, but it depends on what both people want out of life, and how they approach it.
By career , I mean a woman who has her entire life focused on climbing the corporate ladder. I don't think an employed woman is the same as a career woman.
The path of a career man is much easier than a career woman. He starts off in his 20's , and his trajectory is a straight line, whether he gets married or stays single. By 45 he's at the top of his game.

She starts off in her 20's , if she gets married and later, gets pregnant , her career path starts to curve downward, and takes time to recover. Sometimes it never recovers because ostensibly, the corporate environment is internally competitive. Another person takes her slot.

The best time for a couple to discuss these things is before marriage. Plan your family and finances to match your goals and ambitions as a team.
Some women get married and have their kids early, then establish and focus on their career path.
This too ,is an option.

In socialist leaning countries ,it is much easier for a woman to be a wife , mother and a career woman.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> I have tried so many times , and failed at starting up different type of businesses, that I have enough stories to entertain .
> 
> The secret in understanding this choice / outcomes dilemma is simple.
> There's nothing guaranteed in life so never give up on trying. But this is a choice. You choose your perspective / outlook.
> ...


I think all business owners have stories of epic fails. I drove my wife's family absolutely crazy in my pursuit of entrepreneurship. I walked away from a good job and mortgaged my house and also maxed out my credit cards to launch my business. I thought I had everything planned out but we almost lost everything. It was a four year exercise of trial and error. Eventually it got going though. Now of course everyone says, "we never doubted".


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> I think all business owners have stories of epic fails. I drove my wife's family absolutely crazy in my pursuit of entrepreneurship. I walked away from a good job and mortgaged my house and also maxed out my credit cards to launch my business. I thought I had everything planned out but we almost lost everything. It was a four year exercise of trial and error. Eventually it got going though. Now of course everyone says, "we never doubted".


Thing is, I didn't want to derail the thread. But my wife went through hell with me and my dream of starting a business. She put up with everything, almost until breaking point. It contributed to our relationship breaking down to the point where the only option was Marriage Counselling, or divorce.
We chose marriage counselling.
Now everything's good ,but people aren't aware of how many times I've failed and the literal hell we went through.
Every couple's story is unique, but there are basics in life.
Even in cases of marital problems or infidelity, some couples choose to reconcile , some choose divorce , and they reap the benefits of their choice ,success or failure.
Input / output , peripherals , it still comes down to choices.
Doesn't mean you're a failure, but just that you failed. To err is human.

I will always defend my wife and her name.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

As a career woman, I have to say I find this thread very interesting. The article is ridiculous, using questionable info from a decade before to attempt to support a current reality. Nonsense. But the conversation here is enlightening. 

For one, it is great to see men supporting their wives here, which is a bit of a rarity on a forum that is mostly dedicated to resolving marital issues and both spouses tend to have big issues with each other. 

Mostly, though, it is very interesting to me that a thread that was started about why men shouldn't marry Career Women has mostly involved the defense of SAHMs/SAHWs. 

I would have expected the thread to be more about why Career Women might actually make good marital partners, or perhaps a discussion about the cons of marrying a woman who wanted a career. There haven't even been many posts written by women who currently have a working/paid career. The majority of posts are from SAHMs or husbands with SAHWs. Talk about women working in a career, by husbands with wives who have a career or by women in careers, is pretty sparse here.

Don't get me wrong- I think this has been a very interesting read and all posts are good and valuable, regardless of whether one is working a paid career, have an at-home spouse, etc. 

I think overall, though, this isn't much of a real-life issue for those of us who work. I can't speak for the husbands of wives who work, but I don't see them posting "OH YEAH! I made a HUGE mistake in marrying a career woman!" I don't think I have ever seen a post, even in the Infidelity or Divorce sections, where a man has regretted that his wife had a career; I have seen issues with traveling jobs for both men and women, but usually the solution is to change the job, not to give up working entirely. 

I don't know a single career woman who had not been able to find a partner because of her working status, and I have been working for 20+ years, the last 15 have been in a field where I work almost entirely with women. 

I want to specify that I am not using Carribbean Man's definition of a career woman. To me, any person who "entirely focuses [his or] her life on climbing the corporate ladder" is a person who is fiercely ambitious and likely a workaholic. While there are career women who meet this definition, I believe a very large majority of career women don't- the same for men BTW IMO.

I am using this definition of a Career:an occupation or profession, especially one requiring special training, followed as one's lifework: He sought a career as a lawyer (from DictionaryReference.com)

I can imagine that there ARE workaholic women who can't find a guy willing to tolerate her work scheduled and priorities. But most women (and men) are not workaholics and put their priority on their family IMO.

Also, I think that a lot of women who work in careers are pretty happy about it. Maybe it is just my field (medical, research), but the vast majority of people I work with (which are about 80% women) are happy with their work, we feel like we are making a great contribution and that we were are doing is valuable. I do not see a lot of "I wish I could be at home" angst. I see do some- I know a high-powered woman who manages billions of dollars and global studies who would much rather be at home, but most of us are pretty happy with the work/home balance we have. There are challenges, of course, but in the long-term things balance out.

Lastly, I just want to throw in that the demographics indicate that there are going to more career women, it is going to be more the norm in the future. There are more women than men going to college, at least in the US. They are going into higher-paying fields as well. I think now there are more women going to med school then men, or it's close. In this thread alone you can see that as a general rule, moms and dads want their children- boys AND girls- to have a skill that they can use to support themselves if needed. 

What I hope to see change, and I think will change, is that I think it will become much easier and more common for women to take breaks from the workforce and SAH for a time with their children. Women do it now but are penalized. There will always be a penalty for extended times away from work, but I suspect it will become easier to take 1-2 years and not have too much of an effect on one's career. As more women get into higher and higher levels in their jobs and careers, as well as politics, I think we will see an improvement here.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> My answer may surprise you. I have a daughter and I would never tell her to wait on her prince charming. We emphasize academics with our kids over other extracurricular activities. As far as I'm concerned she can do whatever she wants career wise. I would be very disappointed if she decided she didn't want to attend college. She should be fully able to support herself. I don't want her to "need" a man for financial support.
> 
> I know this conflicts with my personal choice in whom I decided to marry, but its not like my wife was sitting around waiting on a man. She had two degrees, one of them in nursing. I knew that she wanted to be a SAHM and that really appealed to me. When I reached a point that she could do this she quit her job as a nurse. It wasn't forced on her though, I think this is when people run into problems.
> 
> I do feel like I need to acknowledge that part of the reason why I like it better when she isn't working is because she focuses so much more on me and the kids. Perhaps this is selfish of me, but having lived both sides of it I prefer that she doesn't work. Nursing is not an easy field, she seems a lot less stressed now.


You know, I'm not surprised at all. I'd have been much more surprised if you said you'd counsel your daughter to wait around for prince charming. I doubt most men would tell their daughters to wait for prince charming to take care of them even if they do want their own wives to be SAHW's. Life is too uncertain to start out with a disadvantage, like lack of education or ability to support yourself, if you don't have to.

I just don't understand why there are even blogs about not marrying women with careers, or why men would counsel other men or their sons not to marry women with careers. Most women with careers are just women trying to do the best they can for themselves and, ultimately, their families. And sometimes that means keeping the careers, and sometimes it doesn't. Making blanket statements about career women seems silly since we are not a monolith.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

norajane said:


> You know, I'm not surprised at all. I'd have been much more surprised if you said you'd counsel your daughter to wait around for prince charming. I doubt most men would tell their daughters to wait for prince charming to take care of them even if they do want their own wives to be SAHW's. Life is too uncertain to start out with a disadvantage, like lack of education or ability to support yourself, if you don't have to.
> 
> I just don't understand why there are even blogs about not marrying women with careers, or why men would counsel other men or their sons not to marry women with careers. Most women with careers are just women trying to do the best they can for themselves and, ultimately, their families. And sometimes that means keeping the careers, and sometimes it doesn't. Making blanket statements about career women seems silly since we are not a monolith.


I think the article was merely written to hit a particular subset of women. Those that are college minded or workaholics. 
My friends know my opinion of marriage (since I have seen the worst of it for both sexes, I will never touch it) and have tried to tell me that meeting a good, smart girl while I'm in college or the future work place is the answer. Because all the concerns I voiced, they believe, can be solved by marrying a girl with a brain in her head. 

This article shows that isn't always the case, but can in some cases, actually be wrong.


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## reesespieces (Aug 3, 2009)

norajane said:


> You know, I'm not surprised at all. I'd have been much more surprised if you said you'd counsel your daughter to wait around for prince charming. I doubt most men would tell their daughters to wait for prince charming to take care of them even if they do want their own wives to be SAHW's. Life is too uncertain to start out with a disadvantage, like lack of education or ability to support yourself, if you don't have to.
> 
> I just don't understand why there are even blogs about not marrying women with careers, or why men would counsel other men or their sons not to marry women with careers. Most women with careers are just women trying to do the best they can for themselves and, ultimately, their families. And sometimes that means keeping the careers, and sometimes it doesn't. Making blanket statements about career women seems silly since we are not a monolith.


I know there are a lot of people who wouldn't be happy with their daughters having careers after high school, but wouldn't be happy with them waiting around, either. Those are the parents who would say that their daughters need to get married young. 

I think the distinction made between women who have jobs and women who are wedded to their jobs needs to be made more loudly.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

norajane said:


> I just don't understand why there are even blogs about not marrying women with careers, or why men would counsel other men or their sons not to marry women with careers. Most women with careers are just women trying to do the best they can for themselves and, ultimately, their families. And sometimes that means keeping the careers, and sometimes it doesn't. Making blanket statements about career women seems silly since we are not a monolith.


Reading this part of your post made me think. What if the title of the article was "Don't Marry a Career Man".


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Men are generally better at compartmentalizing their issues. I'm not saying that they are 100% but in my personal experience in the corporate world for 3 decades suggests they are...


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

I will teach my sons to also look for woman who can support themselves. theirs no free ride everybody got to be able to make their way in the world.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

My older daughter wants to be an NBA wife and the backup plan is a PhD like her parents. I'm glad to report she's making great progress on both counts


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

The world has changed so much during my life time. My father, a high earning doctor, wanted a SAHW who was dependent and inferior. My mother was a nurse but in reality she had no high school education.

She grew up in mountainous region of the UK populated by a subject people considered thieving White trash by the ruling ethnic group. So for generations the men were downtrodden. This made for matriarchy. 

My father stated in conversation that career women and independent women were bad. He was openly scornful of my mother's nationality and lack of education. 

Over more than a half century of marriage power gradually shifted so that our SAHM became the sole decision maker. My father's brain was hollowed out by Alzheimer's so she could not escape this shift.

My mother reminisces endlessly about her childhood and nursing career. She is proud of her married life but has no sense of personal achievement, except my brothers and me. She became a very good potter, and actually could have made a living shaping clay.

As far as my father's career goes there is little satisfaction. My mother cannot get much satisfaction out of it.

I hope and expect my daughters will have careers and not depend on a man. I hope they marry well and have healthy expectations from marriage. What one expects affects the outcome.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

chillymorn said:


> I will teach my sons to also look for woman who can support themselves. theirs no free ride everybody got to be able to make their way in the world.


Might as well just be good buds with a male roommate, then, girlfriends on the side....

Marriage is one of those things wherein the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. I am not currently bringing in income, but I have significantly enriched and enhanced my H's life such that he is wealthier in terms of health, self-care, social status, and overall quality of life. 

When we married, I didn't know his exact income and assumed I would continue working. Well, he didn't know I would sell my house for a good price and also inherit. And I didn't realize I would stop working. 

Ours is an unconditional partnership; wealth comes and goes, jobs and locations may change. Overall, we both provide so much to each other that we cannot imagine living without this extraordinary resource called marriage.

And you want to put a price tag on me because of my income? 

People bring with them many gifts, some obvious, some a total surprise down the road. We choose our partners for many reasons. Earning potential is just one.


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