# Definitions of cheating in the digital age



## Dulciean (Nov 18, 2012)

I thought I'd throw this out to see what you learned folks think. In today's world of the Internet, porn and everything you could ever desire smorgasbord of sex out there, where are the boundaries that constitute CHEATING in a marriage?
* is it porn use ? * is it using porn covertly? 
* what about the ' Live chat' and 'live sex' sites?
Where do you draw the line in your marriage?
We are pioneers in this digital age, facing issues no one ever has before , on this level anyhow! 
Look forward to hearing your thoughts!


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Digital cheating is everything you try to hide from your spouse, when you deep down know that your spouse wouldn't like it if they found out or you know you're doing something wrong.

It's all about the couple and how they define digital cheating. 
Porn is not always considered cheating as long as both partners are okay with it. But if one is not comfortable and the other is trying to hide it then that's what I'd consider cheating.

As for live sex chats and more, I think every couple considers it as cheating.


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

I agree with LG.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

If you're interacting with other people with the point of getting your emotional/intimacy needs met without the knowledge of your spouse, that's cheating.

Porn is not "cheating". It's not a relationship with another person. It may be unacceptable to one spouse, but it's not different than smoking, drinking, or gambling when they don't approve. Those wouldn't be considered "cheating" as well, would they? And if you're going to say porn is cheating, where do you draw the line? 50 shades of grey? Sears catalog underwear models? Can't tell you how many times I spanked my monkey with the Sears wish book, as a teenager... How about masturbating thinking about your sister in law? No porn involved, but...

My point is that there's a lot of things that can be harmful to a marriage or relationship, but they're not "cheating" by my definition. Porn would fall into that category. If there's no relationship/interaction with another person, it's not cheating. But it can still be bad for the marriage.

C


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## underwater2010 (Jun 27, 2012)

I have never had a issue with porn mags, movies and sexual pics on the internet. I however draw the line at live chats (sexual in nature or emotional with other women).

Simply put a picture does not interact with you on a physical/emotional level.

The best way to figure out if you are cheating or not is to put yourself in their shoes. If you would not like what they are doing, then it is not right. Also, if you have to hide it, then it is wrong.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

But just because something is "not right" or that someone hides it doesn't mean it's "cheating"...

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

I hid smoking for 2 years - is that cheating? 

I was told it was and he used that as a reason to justify his affair.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

PBear said:


> _If you're interacting with other people with the point of getting your emotional/intimacy needs met without the knowledge of your spouse, that's cheating._
> Porn is not "cheating". It's not a relationship with another person. It may be unacceptable to one spouse, but it's not different than smoking, drinking, or gambling when they don't approve. Those wouldn't be considered "cheating" as well, would they? And if you're going to say porn is cheating, where do you draw the line? 50 shades of grey? Sears catalog underwear models? Can't tell you how many times I spanked my monkey with the Sears wish book, as a teenager... How about masturbating thinking about your sister in law? No porn involved, but...
> 
> My point is that there's a lot of things that can be harmful to a marriage or relationship, but they're not "cheating" by my definition. Porn would fall into that category. If there's no relationship/interaction with another person, it's not cheating. But it can still be bad for the marriage.
> ...


While I like this answer I think porn can be betraying. Not that it is, but can be. If it is done covertly and draws away affections and emotions that should be reserved for ones spuse, then it betraying. If it done with consent and used to enhance affections, then probably not.


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## JMGrey (Dec 19, 2012)

lovelygirl said:


> Porn is not always considered cheating as long as both partners are okay with it.


While they may not consider it cheating, I firmly believe that it contributes a lot to the failure of marriage, even in those that are "okay" with it. It inculcates the behavior of sexualizing, and seeking gratification in, the image and person of one that isn't one's spouse. This inevitably either leads one to mentally divorce sex from the obligation of marital fidelity or to emotionally detach because sexual desire, which they do consider to be part of fidelity, has been transferred. While the latter, it can be argued, is merely momentary, I would argue that it's cumulative. Also, by virtue of the sheer variety of pornography, I'd argue that it mentally promotes promiscuity.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

JMGrey said:


> While they may not consider it cheating, I firmly believe that it contributes a lot to the failure of marriage, even in those that are "okay" with it. It inculcates the behavior of sexualizing, and seeking gratification in, the image and person of one that isn't one's spouse. This inevitably either leads one to mentally divorce sex from the obligation of marital fidelity or to emotionally detach because sexual desire, which they do consider to be part of fidelity, has been transferred. While the latter, it can be argued, is merely momentary, I would argue that it's cumulative. Also, by virtue of the sheer variety of pornography, I'd argue that it mentally promotes promiscuity.


To be sure, porn is destructive. It's destructive even to people who agree to allow it in their marriage. It just takes more time for them to realize it. In a way it's like swingers. I have known 4 or 5 couple that did that and while it was thrilling all those marriages ended in divorce and they cited their swinging as the primary reason. I think porn is similar.


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

If you google the Ted talks about "your brain on porn"- it's eye opening about how it rewires your brain. Basically making it harder to get sexually stimulated due to desensitizing the images. You begin to seek out the kinkier stuff. Shows a connection with ED and frequent porn viewing. 

I personally find that if I meet my own needs, then I have no desire to have sex with the spouse. It's like being stuffed at turkey dinner and the sight of the apple pie makes you groan in misery.


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## JMGrey (Dec 19, 2012)

PBear said:


> Porn is not "cheating". It's not a relationship with another person. It may be unacceptable to one spouse, but it's not different than smoking, drinking, or gambling when they don't approve. Those wouldn't be considered "cheating" as well, would they? And if you're going to say porn is cheating, where do you draw the line? 50 shades of grey? Sears catalog underwear models? Can't tell you how many times I spanked my monkey with the Sears wish book, as a teenager... How about masturbating thinking about your sister in law? No porn involved, but...


Er...no, that's logically absurd. When it comes to smoking and drinking and gambling, such activities cannot, unless mutually agreed upon by spouses, be understood to carry exclusivity with regard to participating parties, nor do they strictly require more than one person to be done.

The line is drawn by determining if you've committed to sexual and emotional monogamy in the form of marriage, at such time the consensual cultivation of sexual attraction and gratification with regard to a person that is not your spouse can and should be understood as infidelity. And your sister-in-law? Tell me, does your wife know or would you tell her if you did this. What reaction would you expect?

If you consume pornography, that's you're prerogative and no one can stop you, just don't use crap arguments to justify it. Just say you like and everyone else can ****** off.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

1. If it is interaction with another person, it is cheating... sex chats, sexting, explicit emails, etc.
2. Porn is a betrayal if one partner is not ok with it and makes his/her position completely clear when the subject is brought up.

Personally, I am against porn in my marriage. My husband and I agree on this. But the bottom line is that cheating on your spouse is when there is interaction with another person. If it is "only" watching porn or "only" masturbation, etc., then it is a betrayal IF it takes away from the marital relationship and/or IF the other spouse is clear about his or her feelings on the subject yet the one who is betraying continues doing it, knowing how the betrayed feels.


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## JMGrey (Dec 19, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> 1. If it is interaction with another person, it is cheating... sex chats, sexting, explicit emails, etc.
> 2. Porn is a betrayal if one partner is not ok with it and makes his/her position completely clear when the subject is brought up.
> 
> Personally, I am against porn in my marriage. My husband and I agree on this. But the bottom line is that cheating on your spouse is when there is interaction with another person. If it is "only" watching porn or "only" masturbation, etc., then it is a betrayal IF it takes away from the marital relationship and/or IF the other spouse is clear about his or her feelings on the subject yet the one who is betraying continues doing it, knowing how the betrayed feels.


Then by that rationale a presumptive WS is not committing adultery if their affair is one-sided or unrevealed to the object of their infatuation? Do you agree with that statement?


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

JMGrey said:


> Then by that rationale a presumptive WS is not committing adultery if their affair is one-sided or unrevealed to the object of their infatuation? Do you agree with that statement?


Are you kidding me? If there is any interaction between two people...any... it doesn't matter if he is lusting after her or if she is lusting after him. As long as there is ANY contact at all with the other person, it is cheating. How did you manage to twist what I said to mean what you posted? I said ANY INTERACTION. That means if they speak in person, if they email, if they text, if they call, if they flirt, ETC. ETC usually means there is more than what the writer has written in the list. Surely you could deduce that from my first post.


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## JMGrey (Dec 19, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Are you kidding me? If there is any interaction between two people...any... it doesn't matter if he is lusting after her or if she is lusting after him. As long as there is ANY contact at all with the other person, it is cheating. How did you manage to twist what I said to mean what you posted? I said ANY INTERACTION. That means if they speak in person, if they email, if they text, if they call, if they flirt, ETC. ETC usually means there is more than what the writer has written in the list. Surely you could deduce that from my first post.


I don't disagree, I was simply saying the weight of interaction must surely be defined by its intimacy. A mental simulation of sexual intercourse, derived from a persistent visual record has to trump being in the same room with a crush, especially given that with pornography there's no "risk" as such. Your "partner" always says yes.

My point is that if a sexual attachment is created or emotional fidelity to one's spouse is lessened, as is objectively the case when one consumes pornography, how can it be construed as being any less destructive that exposure to the object of one's infatuation.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

This is MY definition.

Porn DVD's and magazines are not cheating. Internet porn is cheating because of the trouble it got him into before, although if I consumed internet porn it wouldn't be cheating. Interacting in a sexual manner with anyone other than spouse is cheating. Allowing someone else to fulfill emotional needs that spouse should be allowed to is cheating. This would include things like facebook hookups with 'old flames' and reminiscing about the 'good old days' with them.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

JMGrey said:


> I don't disagree, I was simply saying the weight of interaction must surely be defined by its intimacy. A mental simulation of sexual intercourse, derived from a persistent visual record has to trump being in the same room with a crush, especially given that with pornography there's no "risk" as such. Your "partner" always says yes.
> 
> My point is that if a sexual attachment is created or emotional fidelity to one's spouse is lessened, as is objectively the case when one consumes pornography, how can it be construed as being any less destructive that exposure to the object of one's infatuation.



And, if you had actually read my response regarding pornography, I said that if one spouse is not ok with porn usage, then it is not ok to use/view it. I am against porn in MY marriage and my husband agrees with me on that. And, I also stated that if anything takes away from the marital relationship, then it is also not ok...this includes masturbation. If one is unable to have sexual relations with his/her spouse due to masturbating then that should stop as well. 

Sadly, regarding emotional infidelity, not everyone agrees that there is anything wrong with it. But really, the bottom line is that if YOU are not ok with certain things in YOUR marriage, that's all that matters. What works for one couple isn't necessarily going to work for another.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Just always remember this equation: *

*INTERACTION(E) or (P) = CHEATING*

* Anything else is greatly subject to spousal **approval! *


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

The line is just going to keep getting fuzzier and fuzzier as new technology develops, too.


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## JMGrey (Dec 19, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Sadly, regarding emotional infidelity, not everyone agrees that there is anything wrong with it.


Then I'd respectfully submit that those people have never had their significant other on the business end of an EA.



Maricha75 said:


> What works for one couple isn't necessarily going to work for another.


Eh, if there's one thing that TAM, and especially CWI, has taught me, it's that the whole idea of behavior being unique to an individual is a crock. If it weren't, we wouldn't be able to have the cheater's script down cold. When it comes to marriage, once upon a time the general expectation was physical and emotional fidelity. Now, it seems that a lot of people are content with just physical. In that context, it's not particularly surprising to me that so many marriages fail. Just my thoughts.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

JMGrey said:


> While they may not consider it cheating, I firmly believe that it contributes a lot to the failure of marriage, even in those that are "okay" with it. It inculcates the behavior of sexualizing, and seeking gratification in, the image and person of one that isn't one's spouse. This inevitably either leads one to mentally divorce sex from the obligation of marital fidelity or to emotionally detach because sexual desire, which they do consider to be part of fidelity, has been transferred. While the latter, it can be argued, is merely momentary, I would argue that it's cumulative. Also, by virtue of the sheer variety of pornography, I'd argue that it mentally promotes promiscuity.


We're not talking about porn and how it affects one's mind and sexual life. This deserves its own thread. 
I was generally speaking about what the couple expects to include in their marriage - whether it's porn, threesomes, swinging..etc. - IF THEY BOTH AGREE TO THESE AND DON'T HIDE ANYTHING FROM EACH OTHER.

How they affect each partner and the marriage as a whole is another issue.

I agree with your point of view. It's destructive for the marriage but it's totally not related to this topic.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

JMGrey said:


> Then I'd respectfully submit that those people have never had their significant other on the business end of an EA.
> 
> 
> 
> Eh, if there's one thing that TAM, and especially CWI, has taught me, it's that the whole idea of behavior being unique to an individual is a crock. If it weren't, we wouldn't be able to have the cheater's script down cold. When it comes to marriage, once upon a time the general expectation was physical and emotional fidelity. Now, it seems that a lot of people are content with just physical. In that context, it's not particularly surprising to me that so many marriages fail. Just my thoughts.


EA's are byfar the most damaging form of infidelity that there is. A PA is nothing more than just a gross extension of an EA, kind of like the "physical consumation" or the "toasting" of that illicit emotional relationship, giving no real regard to whom it may ultimately come to hurt!


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

The definition of "cheating" is certainly broader in the digital age.

Porn is not necessarily cheating. But when either spouse starts to watch porn to the detriment of their own sex life (eg - as a hidden substitute for sex) - it becomes a problem and can be defined as cheating. 

Chatting/texting is not necessarily cheating - unless it is covert. Nothing is hidden unless there is a reason to hide. If one spouse is hiding their chats, the 100% it is because they recognize that it is wrong on some level. THAT is cheating.

Lying is not necessarily cheating (eg - "Yes honey - those jeans do not make your butt look fat") but cheating, by definition, involves deception and lies.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

Every red-blooded married man masturbated while in the marriage at some point. Having a porn mag at hand or not makes no difference.


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## JMGrey (Dec 19, 2012)

lovelygirl said:


> We're not talking about porn and how it affects one's mind and sexual life. This deserves its own thread.
> I was generally speaking about what the couple expects to include in their marriage - whether it's porn, threesomes, swinging..etc. - IF THEY BOTH AGREE TO THESE AND DON'T HIDE ANYTHING FROM EACH OTHER.
> 
> How they affect each partner and the marriage as a whole is another issue.
> ...


I don't agree that it's not related to the topic. My point was to show how a compromised approach (by compromised, I mean weakened by accepting standards that are lower than is desirable), i.e. emotional and physical polyamory, even with mutual consent, will by any logical evaluation of human behavior, doom a marriage because eventually it will move to something that either spouse isn't okay with and then the accusations of cheating fly, when both are 100% at fault.


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## JMGrey (Dec 19, 2012)

snap said:


> Every red-blooded married man masturbated while in the marriage at some point. Having a porn mag at hand or not makes no difference.


I know plenty of red-blooded men that don't and proudly admit that they don't. They're more than content to have take care of their sexual needs with the loving help of their wives, and vice versa. The idea that refraining from masturbation somehow makes you less masculine is absurd and insulting.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

Right..


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Deception*, albeit either *overt* or *covert*, *is the one key word in the commission of infidelity!*


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## JMGrey (Dec 19, 2012)

snap said:


> Right..


Hey, you're welcome not to believe me, but just because you may have particular weakness for self-gratification, or because the world at large justifies it, doesn't mean that a man can't chose to abstain, for religious reasons or out of personal respect, and maintain that throughout his life.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

JMGrey said:


> Then I'd respectfully submit that those people have never had their significant other on the business end of an EA.


I agree...except there are some in denial over it, so they see it as "well at least he (or she) isn't having sex with her (or him). But the majority, I agree. They don't see the problem with it because they never had to see their spouses' texts calling another woman "sexy" or "beautiful" when they couldn't remember the last time they used those terms about their own wives. Or they rationalize it as "at least he's in my bed at night"....



JMGrey said:


> Eh, if there's one thing that TAM, and especially CWI, has taught me, it's that the whole idea of behavior being unique to an individual is a crock. If it weren't, we wouldn't be able to have the cheater's script down cold. When it comes to marriage, once upon a time the general expectation was physical and emotional fidelity. Now, it seems that a lot of people are content with just physical. In that context, it's not particularly surprising to me that so many marriages fail. Just my thoughts.


Over all, I agree. Knowing how bad I trigger sometimes with "just" an emotional affair... I couldn't handle if it ever went physical. Yea, I'm aware that I just proved your point lol. But what I mean is that everyone has a breaking point. Some can handle if their spouses have sex with other people, as long as emotions don't get involved. Some are ok if they get emotionally close as long as it doesn't go physical. Some are ok with it either way, some are NOT ok with ANYTHING. That's what I meant about things working for some couples not others.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

I'm skeptical of men who say they never masturbate, especially when they are judgmental of others at the same time. Sorry.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

snap said:


> Every red-blooded married man masturbated while in the marriage at some point. Having a porn mag at hand or not makes no difference.


Speak for yourself, mmmk?


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> Speak for yourself, mmmk?


Are you a man now?


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## JMGrey (Dec 19, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Over all, I agree. Knowing how bad I trigger sometimes with "just" an emotional affair... I couldn't handle if it ever went physical. Yea, I'm aware that I just proved your point lol. *But what I mean is that everyone has a breaking point. Some can handle if their spouses have sex with other people, as long as emotions don't get involved. Some are ok if they get emotionally close as long as it doesn't go physical.* Some are ok with it either way, some are NOT ok with ANYTHING. That's what I meant about things working for some couples not others.


The problem is that there's no divorcing the two, at least not in the long term. Emotional intimacy (of the type between non-familial adults) leads to sexual desire. Sexual activity, by virtue of biochemistry, fosters emotional intimacy. You say that everyone has their breaking point and that it's different for each; I contend it's really a matter of the speed with which that breaking point is surpassed. A person engaged in an EA, unless confronted and sufficiently helped to break that EA, will engage in a PA. We have dozens of threads to prove that. How many have you read where the starting point is emotional infidelity? If a person is okay with emotional infidelity, then that person cannot reasonably expect physical fidelity from their spouse, nor are they wholly innocent in the demise of their marriage.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

snap said:


> Every red-blooded married man masturbated while in the marriage at some point. Having a porn mag at hand or not makes no difference.


Agreed. Same with women to a lesser extent. But if it becomes a habit (eg - in front of the keyboard every night instead of with your wife) then it is a problem.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

snap said:


> I'm skeptical of men who say they never masturbate, especially when they are judgmental of others at the same time. Sorry.


Feel free to be skeptical about my husband. He doesn't do it. I've posted a few times about it in the Sex forum. Got accused of being controlling because I actually knew whether my husband did it or not because *gasp* I am aware of his habits when he is awake. He doesn't do it. Believe what you want, but JMGrey is right that some men CHOOSE not to do it due to religious convictions or due to the fact they believe it to be disrespectful toward their wives.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

snap said:


> Are you a man now?


So... I have to be a man to know whether or not my husband masturbates or watches porn or anything else? Wow.... :rofl::rofl:


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

arbitrator said:


> *Deception*, albeit either *overt* or *covert*, *is the one key word in the commission of infidelity!*


Exactly. I tend to look at it from a very simplistic point of view. If it's something that I would *not* do directly in front of my spouse, then it's cheating, or at the very least deception, and neither has any place whatsoever in a marriage.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> So... I have to be a man to know whether or not my husband masturbates or watches porn or anything else? Wow.... :rofl::rofl:


No, you have to be your husband. 

There must be men who don't do that at all, just by sheer number of people inhabiting Earth. I doubt, however, that they outnumber men who lie about it.

Now, hands on the blanket!


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

snap said:


> No, you have to be your husband.
> 
> There must be men who don't do that at all, just by sheer number of people inhabiting Earth. I doubt, however, that they outnumber men who lie about it.
> 
> Now, hands on the blanket!


I agree with you on that. Quite often, people will lie about it. However, with my husband, I don't HAVE to be him to know whether he does it or not. At the risk of being called controlling...AGAIN... we are with each other nearly constantly. If I am not with him, the kids are. If I am at home alone with the kids, it is because he has a doctor's appointment. We don't have our own car atm, so my dad drives him. So, no chance in the car. Bathroom, always unlocked and either the boys or I are able to go in at any time. Same applies if I am in there: our daughter or my husband is free to go in there. Showers, he requires assistance because of his back. Now, do we need to discuss this aspect further? I know. Can we stop now?

As for porn... due to the EAs we each had, we have complete access to each others computers, cell phones, etc. He never deletes anything... no web browser history, nothing. I get the mail, so no magazines or DVDs mailed. I am the one who does the shopping... no magazines or DVDs purchased there. We don't watch that crap on the TV either. So... yes, I am fully aware of that as well.

Again, I know my husband, whether anyone else wants to believe it or not. And, considering the medications he is on, it would take from the marital relationship. So... no, he doesn't do it. But, you can feel free to believe whatever you want about my husband, k?


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

Maricha, I don't know your husband, so he is of no particular interest to me. Even if we were acquainted, I wouldn't care either way: my friends' personal habits are low on my list of interests and none of my business anyway.

Here in Europe masturbation is neither stigmatized nor promoted. It's viewed mostly as a body function of the kind you wouldn't want to discuss over lunch, but tacit understanding is it's there.

Anyway, my original point was that presence of porn makes no difference, but is mere, uh, means to the ends. Nobody thinks of football while doing it anyway.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I'm skeptical of guys who say they don't masturbate too. My husband claims he doesn't right now, but I don't believe him. I don't bring it up though, because in the end it's him who has to figure out if he's ok with it - if he does do it, it's so rarely and it doesn't affect our sex life. I don't tell him every time I do it either 

If it was affecting our relationship in any way I'd be bringing it up though.


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## JMGrey (Dec 19, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> I'm skeptical of guys who say they don't masturbate too. My husband claims he doesn't right now, but I don't believe him.


You've every right to dismiss your husband's assertions. You've shared your married life with him, plus there's the fact that he has had obvious impulse control problems with the respect to sex in the past. But you shouldn't blanket generalize because you do it or know someone that does it.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

JMGrey said:


> But you shouldn't blanket generalize because you do it or know someone that does it.


I know I shouldn't. But I do anyways.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

JMGrey said:


> I don't agree that it's not related to the topic. My point was to show how a compromised approach (by compromised, I mean weakened by accepting standards that are lower than is desirable), i.e. emotional and physical polyamory, even with mutual consent, will by any logical evaluation of human behavior, doom a marriage because eventually it will move to something that either spouse isn't okay with and then the accusations of cheating fly, when both are 100% at fault.


I agree that it will come to a point that none of the partners is okay anymore but my point is that as long as it's consensual, for as long as this mutual agreement lasts - it's not considered as cheating. Lowering the standards is the way to reach to an agreement but nonetheless, it's not considered cheating. 
It's simply putting up with less than what you expected out of the marriage. It hasn't reached to the point of cheating yet.


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## sadfiancee (Jan 8, 2013)

I've been debating this a lot the past day given my current situation. I'm in theory OK with porn. I even view it myself sometimes. I think it's normal and natural to want to see other people having sex. In my situation, however, there's local porn being viewed. These women are accessible to my SO. James Deen will never be accessible to me. 

But I do worry about the need to keeping upping the stakes by viewing more extreme or "out there" porn. It does rewire your brain to want images that are more exciting than the ones you've become accustomed.

And whoever brought up ED, my fiance told me last night he was viewing what he was because he is finding it harder (no pun intended) to maintain an erection, so there might be some truth there.


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## WadeWilson (Jul 4, 2010)

If at any point you are; 
Transferring emotional/physical sex/sexuality from spouse
Removing either from spouse
Displacing
Neglect...
Or anything of the sort from your spouse or even at their expense...
With another human being, and/or
Obsessing/objectifying over images (with or without consent) at the same levels as mentioned above...
Then yes... Flirty texting/chat has an endgame.... Porn, as long as its agreed upon and does not substitutes real physical and emotional connections is fine...
And for a bonus, I don't believe masturbation for easy gratification in private is necessarily betrayal, some people don't feel comfortable to just blurt out "Hey honey! Guess what? I just rubbed one out!", nor want hear about it....


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## JMGrey (Dec 19, 2012)

lovelygirl said:


> I agree that it will come to a point that none of the partners is okay anymore but my point is that as long as it's consensual, for as long as this mutual agreement lasts - it's not considered as cheating. Lowering the standards is the way to reach to an agreement but nonetheless, it's not considered cheating.
> It's simply putting up with less than what you expected out of the marriage. It hasn't reached to the point of cheating yet.


I'm sorry, I just don't see it that way. You argue that mutual consent should be sufficient to permit either or both parties from discharging marriage in a manner which falls short and, most here I believe would argue, far short of the normative arrangement of marriage, i.e. emotional and physical fidelity. Permission or omission of censure (social stigma, or at-fault divorce as it used to exist almost universally) does not and cannot objectively justify engaging the marriage in such fashion. As with any other contract, and marriage is legally a contract as some here on CWI have found to their great detriment, two parties can collude by consent or omission to fulfill the terms of the contract in a manner which is damaging to family, to society, and most especially to themselves at some future point. This potentiality is why there are laws which prevent the discharge of contract in bad faith, and it's why those that are unwilling to meet the rigors of marriage with the sobriety and fidelity that is proper and implicit should refrain. And if emotional and physical fidelity are not the aim of marriage, why contract it at all?


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

From Merriam-Webster:
Definition of CHEAT
intransitive verb
1a : to practice fraud or trickery b : to violate rules dishonestly <cheat at cards> <cheating on a test> 
2: to be sexually unfaithful —usually used with on <was cheating on his wife> 
3: to position oneself defensively near a particular area in anticipation of a play in that area <the shortstop was cheating toward second base> 

The 3rd definition doesn't really apply. So, let's toss that out. Someone may be able to come up with a way to fit it. But I don't see a reason to bother with it.

The 2nd definition is directly applicable and the most obvious. I think any 'sexual' action qualifies. Cybersex, exchanging lewd photos or photos with the intent to illicit sexual arousal and grooming potential AP with flirting and flattery are clear cut cheating. Period, end of question. It may not be intercourse, but neither is oral or playing with breasts or kissing. So, I think you need to include anything of a sexual nature into that.

Chatting with opposite sex friends (without intent to be sexual) or viewing porn are where it gets murky. Here I would apply definition number 1a to determine if it is 'cheating'. If you are hoping it goes unnoticed (lie of omission), hiding it (fraud) or gas lighting your spouse (trickery), then it's cheating. If you are open with your spouse, and are both okay with the activity, then it's fine. I think both porn and chatting with opposite sex friends need to have very clearly defined boundaries that are mutually agreed upon by both partners. These activities both have potential to lead to cheating if not carefully guarded. People in dysfunctional relationships should probably avoid both and focus on the relationship. People with boundary issues should be especially wary.

As an illustration, I'll use my own situation as an example:

My W and I are dealing with this very issue in our relationship now. She over 300 friends on Facebook (I don't even have an account). In the past couple of years, chatting lead to flirting which lead to cybersex. I caught her, we had a massive blow up and are working on R. My boundary is that she can't chat with other men, period, end of story (exceptions for immediate family). Her boundary would be that she would not be flirty. Due to the fact my boundary is 'safer' than hers, she is abiding by my boundary as part of our reconciliation process. She may not agree with my boundary, but she understands that because she already cheated, I will see any chatting with another man as an attempt by her to groom a new AP. That is because you can't 'see' someone's intent. And you can't trust a cheater to tell you the truth. So, the only 'safe' thing for me is to assume that if she is chatting with other men, it's with the intent to find a new partner to have cyber with. That may not be true, but as there is no way for me to know otherwise, the best thing for her to do is not chat with other men.

I like porn. I keep it secret. It shames me for anyone to know I surf it, and it hurts my wife's feelings. She mentioned that when I surf porn, it makes her feel like I want something she can't offer and it hurts her. The fact I was hiding my porn habit was also cheating. My boundary is that I view porn, but only during times we know we won't be having sex for a few days. Porn satisfies (to some degree) sexual urge and as a result I admit I'm less 'raring to go'. She likes it when after 3 or 4 days of not climaxing I wake up in the morning and just enter her as a 'wake up' call. If I'm satisfying myself with porn it detracts from that. Her boundary is that I don't surf porn. Her boundary is 'safer' than mine, and I've committed to using her boundary as part of our reconciliation process. 

You might be able to 'rank' these things into lessor or greater cheating. But I think any such list would be very subjective. When boundary setting it's better to start with the 'more strict' boundary. Both parties can discuss it, and if the person with the looser boundary feels it is unfair, then they need to decide which is more important, the marriage, or where that boundary is set. 

I think with that 'philosophy' if you will, the technology doesn't really mater.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Acoa said:


> From Merriam-Webster:
> Definition of CHEAT
> intransitive verb
> 1a : to practice fraud or trickery b : to violate rules dishonestly <cheat at cards> <cheating on a test>
> ...


Excellent post.
Cheating is relative and different couples have different boundaries, depending on their personal experiences. 

That's why I was telling JMGrey that whether it destroys marriage or not, what works for the couple AT THE MOMENT OF AGREEMENT, is not considered as cheating UNTIL one of them feels betrayed while the other starts hiding things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Acoa said:


> In the past couple of years, chatting lead to flirting which lead to cybersex. I caught her, we had a massive blow up and are working on R. My boundary is that she can't chat with other men, period, end of story (exceptions for immediate family). Her boundary would be that she would not be flirty. Due to the fact my boundary is 'safer' than hers, she is abiding by my boundary as part of our reconciliation process.


You're a better man than I. My boundary would be to get the hell off facebook.


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## stopandmakecoffee (Jan 2, 2013)

hm.i might be one of the 'cheaters' if i go by the definition of 'cheating' particularly in this thread.

- i have a BFF for years. it's a he.we talked a lot by messenger and facebook. romantically ? well, that's a bit vague term. i mean, do we flirt? no. define flirting :
complimenting physical apperarance? no. saying 'miss you', 'think about you'? never. 
we talk about tons of thing : his current date/GF, family stuff, work, etc.he's a player but he treats me with respect. i'm like his older sister [and yes, i am 2years older than him]. STBXH knew all this since i show him our chat logs , and i never, not once,hide anything or frantically close the browser tab if STBXH happened walked into the room. i hook them up so there's no awkward feeling between the 3 of us,put a possible boundary and to show everyone involved that me and this guy are simply good friends, no more. during this D/S situation, he helps me a lot without taking advantage in any sort, and i don't get romantically attracted to him. so yes, i can say that i don't cheat.

- i browsed some porn. downloaded some. just softcore/erotica, not hardcore stuff. why? because i need it. 5 years of marriage, 3 years sexless. i need to do some 'independent sex'.i need a trigger.
addicted? well, once in a month or so to watch and to masturbate while hugging my STBXH's pillow,is that cheating? i put my 'masturbatory aid' in shared folder, connected with his PC so im not afraid he's gonna find out.i'm not ashamed or whatsoever if he did find out. i'm a human. human needs sex. i need sex.

- facebook : STBXH has always had full access to my facebook. 
twitter : i use it to talk about random things. my account wasn't private. he has twitter and he followed me, and vice versa.
blogger : i show him everything i post and ask for his suggestions.
forum : i asked him to join the same forum so we can watch each other's back.
email : i have 3 different e-mails. one for business [which he also had full access], one for shopping [duh, of course he had full access], the other one only for online registration in many socmed.

so i don't believe that social media sites are 'evil'. it depends on you.
and cheating to me, is plain shady business, in digital era or not.


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## Enchanted (Jan 2, 2013)

Would flirting on a forum be considered cheating?


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

Enchanted said:


> Would flirting on a forum be considered cheating?


Depends. If it would upset your spouse and you hide it, or at least hope they never find out, then yes. If you both discussed it and said it's fine, then no.

I'm not sure why anyone would be okay with their spouse flirting, but that's a different debate.


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## Enchanted (Jan 2, 2013)

Acoa said:


> Depends. If it would upset your spouse and you hide it, or at least hope they never find out, then yes. If you both discussed it and said it's fine, then no.
> 
> I'm not sure why anyone would be okay with their spouse flirting, but that's a different debate.


I was on a site for writers and most were married. Everyone flirted so much. I think most of it was to get people to back their books but what do I know.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Dulciean said:


> I thought I'd throw this out to see what you learned folks think. In today's world of the Internet, porn and everything you could ever desire smorgasbord of sex out there, where are the boundaries that constitute CHEATING in a marriage?
> 
> * is it porn use ? * is it using porn covertly?
> * what about the ' Live chat' and 'live sex' sites?
> ...


I can make this really easy actually. Rather than making a bunch of "rules" about what is and is not "cheating" how about if I put it into perspective:

*I promise my spouse and ONLY my spouse 100% of my affection and 100% of my loyalty. Period. If I offer anything less than 100% to my spouse, if I offer ANY to anyone (or anything) else, then I am not being faithful. *

Kinda makes is clear, doesn't it?


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## JMGrey (Dec 19, 2012)

Affaircare said:


> I can make this really easy actually. Rather than making a bunch of "rules" about what is and is not "cheating" how about if I put it into perspective:
> 
> *I promise my spouse and ONLY my spouse 100% of my affection and 100% of my loyalty. Period. If I offer anything less than 100% to my spouse, if I offer ANY to anyone (or anything) else, then I am not being faithful. *
> 
> Kinda makes is clear, doesn't it?


You would think that this would be self-evident but apparently it isn't. Absolute mental and physical fidelity. I wish people would just take a step back and ask themselves if they can reasonably commit to such a thing. Maybe there would be fewer broken marriages.


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## JMGrey (Dec 19, 2012)

Enchanted said:


> I was on a site for writers and most were married. Everyone flirted so much. I think most of it was to get people to back their books but what do I know.


As a writer myself I can tell you it wasn't for promotional purposes. Having been around writers of every stripe, I can tell you that they, as a group, are probably the most self-absorbed on the planet. They tend to think of the written word as yardstick of civilization and that they, as the vanguards of that great revolution, have evolved intellectually beyond such tedious conventions as sexual monogamy. In reality, most of them are fatuous blowhards with the emotional depth of a toddler.


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## Dulciean (Nov 18, 2012)

Fascinating how my question ran off with a life of its own here! I have read all the responses, there's a plethora of good insight here.i also feel re the porn issue that if the partner who is partaking knows the other person is hurt/ feeling rejected and marginalised by this use then it feels like cheating to me. Having said that, I have struggled in my marriage to try to accept/ understand my husbands porn use( just might have an addiction I'm starting to suspect) and can definitely feel the detrimental impact is has on our intimacy/ trust.
I wonder if I would be strong enough to end the marriage should I find out he has wandered into live chat/ cyber-sex territory. 
I live in a land of make believe where there are none of these digital issues to deal with! La-la land is safe and warm hehe!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

JMGrey said:


> I'm sorry, I just don't see it that way. You argue that mutual consent should be sufficient to permit either or both parties from discharging marriage in a manner which falls short and, most here I believe would argue, far short of the normative arrangement of marriage, i.e. emotional and physical fidelity. Permission or omission of censure (social stigma, or at-fault divorce as it used to exist almost universally) does not and cannot objectively justify engaging the marriage in such fashion. As with any other contract, and marriage is legally a contract as some here on CWI have found to their great detriment, two parties can collude by consent or omission to fulfill the terms of the contract in a manner which is damaging to family, to society, and most especially to themselves at some future point. This potentiality is why there are laws which prevent the discharge of contract in bad faith, and it's why those that are unwilling to meet the rigors of marriage with the sobriety and fidelity that is proper and implicit should refrain. And if emotional and physical fidelity are not the aim of marriage, why contract it at all?


This gets controversial.

The terms of the contract are not necessarily clearly specified. For example, both my wife and I agreed marriage was for life, yet legally either of us could unilaterally end the mariage, with no reason given. Infidelity has no bearing on the legal contract where we are. Some places you can't even have binding prenup agreements.

By the same logic, if a couple decide to swing, or whatever, I don't think there is any legal impediment.

Therefore surely cheating is what the couple define as cheating.


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