# Do I stay or go?



## lucyloo (Dec 3, 2013)

I will apologize in advance for this long winded post. 

I have been with my husband since I was 18. We met shortly after I graduated from high school and became inseparable thereafter. He moved away to find work about a year later, as the town we grew up in offered little in terms of opportunity. I was looking for a decent university to attend, so I followed him to the city he moved to, and we moved in together after having been a couple for a year. 

I was so young, only 19 and was clueless in terms of what was respectful treatment from a partner. At the time, I had no idea or could have fathomed the way he spoke to and treated me was verbal and mental abuse. I just assumed that's just what couples do. They fight. 

Fast forward 4-5 years and the abuse came and went, sometimes things were great, other times they were horrible. At times he would get violent - throwing pots and pans, shoving me, threatening me. Again, I didn't realize how serious this was and just shrugged it off as typical marital disputes. 

Now here I am, 12 years later, 30 years old and I've nearly left him 2-3 times. I finally realized how he spoke to me and treated me was completely unacceptable and that he was projecting his insecurities and own problems onto me like a doormat or punching bag. 

I gave him an ultimatum that he had to get help in order for us to stay together, and as such we've been seeing a therapist together and separately for several years now. 

The issue is that it gets better for awhile, and then he reverts back to his old ways. And it's never about anything of significance. He will yell, scream, swear, name call and threaten me physically over how I organized my shoe closet, but I know it is not about the shoe closet. He just won't or can't own up to where the need for control and abuse comes from. 

Our therapist offers all sorts of communication techniques but nothing ever seems to stick. I honestly don't think she's dug deep enough to sort out what his true issue is. 

I don't ever really feel threatened or scared of him - I know the signs of when he's getting angry so normally I leave the house or go to another room and tell him I won't engage with him while he's red hot. This is from all of my own personal research on how to live and deal with a bully. It's gotten to the point now that we have to skip plans with friends or events because I refuse to be around someone who speaks to me the way he does. We missed a concert we spent $200 on tickets last night because he told me the dinner I made was "****" and that I did it vindictively because I don't care about him. I couldn't even respond because his claims are so ridiculous sometimes I can't even deal with him. 

So, here I am, trying to figure out if I should leave or go. It's not so bad that I feel I should leave - he probably has outbursts once or twice a month, or sometimes when it gets bad, weekly. But it's good enough and we have a lot of fun together that so much of me wants to stay. 

I am in love with him. He is my best friend. I see so much good in him and so many amazing qualities about him that I love. We have the best time together and laugh non stop. 

Do I continue seeing a therapist and truly do everything in my power to continue to work at it? 

Or should I call it quits and move on? I don't know what to do.


----------



## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

lucyloo said:


> Our therapist offers all sorts of communication techniques but nothing ever seems to stick. I honestly don't think she's dug deep enough to sort out what his true issue is.
> 
> Do I continue seeing a therapist and truly do everything in my power to continue to work at it?
> 
> Or should I call it quits and move on? I don't know what to do.


In my opinion, abuse is NOT about communicating better, it's about who has control. I also believe you BOTH are abusive to each other. When he says the meal you prepared is ****, you punished him right back by refusing to attend the concert.

You say that the therapist "hasn't dug deep enough to find what his true issue is." Reality check: He does not have an issue. You do. You don't need to dig deep to see that the problem is that you tolerate his behavior and keep engaging anyway. Doesn't matter that you "fight for" your beliefs because you do not uphold them in the end. 

Whether to leave or not is a question only you can answer. You have fun and say you love the guy. Well, the bad is part of it. You can change you, but he's NOT going to change without a damned good reason to, and you and the therapist haven't given him any. He believes his behaviors are ok. They're "justifiable." Until he faces a crisis that makes him stop having that belief altogether, he will hang onto it because it works more often than not. It gives him the feelings of power and control that he's seeking.


----------



## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

KathyBatesel said:


> ...he's NOT going to change without a damned good reason to


And as a reformed abuser, I can tell you with near 100% certainty that he will not change until he see's a REAL consequence to his actions. Hand him a list of "reasons" as you walk out the door. Let him know it is over for good, that you just don't feel safe around him. "sorry it had to end this way, you'll hear from my lawyer. No I don't think we can fix this. We've tried. Bye."

Her's where the disconnect happens. He is your best friend 99% of the time. He knows that, you know that. He see's his outbursts as bad, but he doesn't know HOW bad. He doesn't know what it does to you. What he see's as an aberration to an otherwise perfect marriage leaves you living in fear that 99% of the time he's "good". So 100% of your marriage is "off" for you. For him it's 1% (or less even). For him it's a minor "bad" but it's driving you away. He has NO IDEA that is happening. And DO NOT tell me "but I've told him 100 times in counseling". Talking doesn't work. You need to DO!!

I call it my "kick in the gut" strategy for changing a husbands behavior. When I found out my wife had checked out of our marriage YEARS prior, she was never coming back, and it was MY FAULT?!?!?! My life, my love, my soul mate didn't love me anymore and wasn't going to ever again?

I changed ON THE SPOT! Didn't even have to try. My DNA changed. NO WAY was I going to be that person that could do something like that to someone I love. NO WAY! And my kids. My kids, THANK GOD, will always love me. Despite having been the man I was. 

But my wife was gone. You may not be. But he needs his world to crash. You've talked about it until you are "blue in the face", right? No change, right? He needs to think he's lost you. And he needs to do some HEAVY LIFTING to get you back. Make it easy on him and he's right back to his abuse.

Kick him. Hard. Then see if he REALLY wants to change.


----------



## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

lucyloo said:


> Do I continue seeing a therapist and truly do everything in my power to continue to work at it?
> 
> Or should I call it quits and move on? I don't know what to do.


I have a book suggestion for you "Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft.

IMHO, you are wasting your time and money visiting therapists to try & figure out how to basically not set him off so he doesn't abuse you.

Do you see how ridiculous that sounds?

He needs anger management at minimum but better yet an intensive program designed for men who abuse their partners.

There is no excuse for him to abuse you. Don't fall for it.

Not all angry people abuse and not all abusers are angry.

I lived with an abuser for 22 years. I tried everything to get him to stop abusing me.

The ONLY thing that worked was me leaving for good.

I hear from my daughters that he is still abusing me & I'm not even there


----------



## IrishGirlVA (Aug 27, 2012)

lucyloo said:


> But it's good enough....


I might be wrong but these 4 words sounds to me as if you are settling. 

I've been where you are. I was in a relationship with a man that was absolutely and truly my best friend. We had SO much in common and so much fun together. I eventually moved in with him and that's when his temper tantrums could no longer be hidden. I never knew when he'd lose control. I stopped inviting friends over. I stopped accepting invitiations to go out. I even stopped going out with just him in public. Even though his "cycle" was once every couple weeks it still wasn't predictable. I walked on egg shells every single day. After a few short months of this, I left. I missed him terribly and I still loved him very much but I needed peace in my life. I needed to come home to an emotionally safe environment and if that meant it being just my cat then so be it. I was happy. 

It sounds like you and your husband have tried a variety of ways to make this marriage work but to no avail. 

Please do not bargain your happiness down to "good enough" because you know that deserve so much more than that. 

Good luck to you.


----------



## lilith23 (Sep 6, 2012)

I agree with what others said, he is probably not putting real effort into change since you are tolerating it. Change is hard, so people might not try hard enough if they feel that they don't need to, that you would still be there anyways.

But you need to see if it's really worth it or not. Do you feel that things might someday get out of hand? Do you feel real physical thread?

I'd suggest that you talk to him about this in a public place, so that in case he overreacts you can have other people helping you. Specially if you want to tell him about divorcing.


----------



## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

MrK said:


> And as a reformed abuser, I can tell you with near 100% certainty that he will not change until he see's a REAL consequence to his actions. Hand him a list of "reasons" as you walk out the door. Let him know it is over for good, that you just don't feel safe around him. "sorry it had to end this way, you'll hear from my lawyer. No I don't think we can fix this. We've tried. Bye."
> 
> Her's where the disconnect happens. He is your best friend 99% of the time. He knows that, you know that. He see's his outbursts as bad, but he doesn't know HOW bad. He doesn't know what it does to you. What he see's as an aberration to an otherwise perfect marriage leaves you living in fear that 99% of the time he's "good". So 100% of your marriage is "off" for you. For him it's 1% (or less even). For him it's a minor "bad" but it's driving you away. He has NO IDEA that is happening. And DO NOT tell me "but I've told him 100 times in counseling". Talking doesn't work. You need to DO!!
> 
> ...


MrK, I've seen you write similar thoughts before, but your wording here is phenomenal! May I use some of what you've said to write an article related to "Why Abusers Don't Change (and What Will Motivate Them To?)"


----------



## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

Yes, of course.


----------



## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

MrK said:


> Yes, of course.


Thank you!


----------



## Unique Username (Jul 6, 2013)

If you are going to leave

I urge you to do it NOW while you are young enough to find someone who will cherish you the way you deserve.

So that you can have a happy life and make a family and have children (if that's what you want)


----------



## lucyloo (Dec 3, 2013)

Thank you all for your helpful and sobering responses. 

I just posted another thread complaining of similar issues again, 6 months later. 

I don't really know what to do. We just bought another house, and we have been trying to conceive. 

I'm constantly at a cross roads - is it really bad enough to leave or is it in my head? I just don't understand how someone who supposedly loves me so much can be so cruel. And when I tell him how cruel he is and how awful it makes me feel - he says he'll never do it again - until he does.


----------



## lancaster (Dec 2, 2013)

Op obviously it is bad enough that you are considering leaving, otherwise you would not be here. 

He is making you a prisoner in your own home. You should not feel the need to lock yourself in a room when he loses his temper. IMO it is time to look at divorce. You have tried therapy and it does not seem to have worked. He is physically and emotionally abusive. Pack up and move out. You need to love yourself as his actions prove that he neither loves or respects you.

Do not have a child with him. He is going to abuse you in front of the kid and quite possibly abuse the child too.


----------



## lucyloo (Dec 3, 2013)

lancaster said:


> Op obviously it is bad enough that you are considering leaving, otherwise you would not be here.
> 
> He is making you a prisoner in your own home. You should not feel the need to lock yourself in a room when he loses his temper. IMO it is time to look at divorce. You have tried therapy and it does not seem to have worked. He is physically and emotionally abusive. Pack up and move out. You need to love yourself as his actions prove that he neither loves or respects you.
> 
> Do not have a child with him. He is going to abuse you in front of the kid and quite possibly abuse the child too.


That is my fear and I have told him that before, but he responds in a baffled manner that I am totally crazy even having concerns of how he would be as a father. Like I have said, it's so good for such long periods but then he has major setbacks and is so incredibly cruel I can't even be around him.

Like last night, he found everything wrong with every little thing I did, including calling me a **** for buying a particular bikini. This morning? He rolls over and tries to hug and kiss me as if nothing is wrong. He doesn't apologize - just tells me to snap out of it and that I shouldn't be wearing such a ****ty bikini because I'm "better than that". It just makes him even more despicable to me!

We've been trying to conceive but haven't had any luck yet and I keep going back and forth wondering if we shouldn't hold off - something in my gut tells me it might not be right. I am so confused.


----------



## lancaster (Dec 2, 2013)

Typical abuser. Instead ok acknowledging your feelings and concerns he calls you crazy. That way it is all your fault. My father was abusive to my mother and later to me as well.

So not only does he make you a prisoner he even has control over what you wear and belittles/abuses you if he does not agree with it. Oh but he is doing it for your own good. Nope, he is going it because he controls you and considers you a possession.

Love is an action word. That means if he truly loved you he would treat you with respect and kindness, even when arguing. But he does not, therefore he does not love you.

It does not matter how often you argue, what matters is how he treats you when you argue. He treats you like dirt.

I promise you he will not change with a baby. Instead, if you stay with him, that baby will eventually enter into an abusive relationship later in life too. 

You need to sit down by yourself and right a list of pros and cons in your relationship and then rate them in order of importance. I tell you right now I would leave. You deserve better and you will not get that from him.


----------



## lucyloo (Dec 3, 2013)

lancaster said:


> Typical abuser. Instead ok acknowledging your feelings and concerns he calls you crazy. That way it is all your fault. My father was abusive to my mother and later to me as well.
> 
> So not only does he make you a prisoner he even has control over what you wear and belittles/abuses you if he does not agree with it. Oh but he is doing it for your own good. Nope, he is going it because he controls you and considers you a possession.
> 
> ...


Well as expected, he apologized and acknowledged that his behaviour was telltale of someone with control issues (I left him an article when I left for the night). But it just doesn't seem like he feels much remorse because he's SO accustomed to being so cruel, it's like it comes naturally to him and I should just expect to be his punching bag. So he apologizes, and then like clock work expects me to be intimate with him and he honestly disgusts me right now. He's in his "sugary sweet" phase until something stresses him out or triggers him and he'll flip out on me again.

My issue is that it just doesn't feel "bad enough" to leave. Yes, while I endure his cruelty often times we can go months where things are great, and he's worked really hard at employing our therapist's techniques for overcoming his issues. I would just feel like I am blowing things out of proportion, or giving up, and leaving a marriage that I feel still has a chance. 

I know that probably sounds pathetic but I do still really love him, and I want to make it work. 90% of the time he is really good to me. 

I know I probably sound like a typical wife married to an abuser but it's so hard because it comes and goes so sporadically and he has worked really hard to get better, but he is human and has set backs.


----------



## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

lancaster said:


> Op obviously it is bad enough that you are considering leaving, otherwise you would not be here.
> 
> He is making you a prisoner in your own home. You should not feel the need to lock yourself in a room when he loses his temper. IMO it is time to look at divorce. You have tried therapy and it does not seem to have worked. He is physically and emotionally abusive. Pack up and move out. You need to love yourself as his actions prove that he neither loves or respects you.
> 
> Do not have a child with him. He is going to abuse you in front of the kid and quite possibly abuse the child too.


Last sentence. :iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

Stop at once trying to conceive with him! Sounds like he is neither husband nor father material. If you think life is hard with him now, consider it a mere warm up compared to him under parental stress.


----------



## lancaster (Dec 2, 2013)

lucyloo said:


> Well as expected, he apologized and acknowledged that his behaviour was telltale of someone with control issues (I left him an article when I left for the night). But it just doesn't seem like he feels much remorse because he's SO accustomed to being so cruel, it's like it comes naturally to him and I should just expect to be his punching bag. So he apologizes, and then like clock work expects me to be intimate with him and he honestly disgusts me right now. He's in his "sugary sweet" phase until something stresses him out or triggers him and he'll flip out on me again.
> 
> My issue is that it just doesn't feel "bad enough" to leave. Yes, while I endure his cruelty often times we can go months where things are great, and he's worked really hard at employing our therapist's techniques for overcoming his issues. I would just feel like I am blowing things out of proportion, or giving up, and leaving a marriage that I feel still has a chance.
> 
> ...


You do indeed sound like a typical spouse married to a typical abuser. You even justify and try to minimize the abuser's actions. If you are okay with being married to an abuser that is one thing, but deliberately bringing an innocent child into such a relationship, is, to put it very nicely, unfair. 

My mother left my father when I was young, but even today I still have to deal with the after effects of the abuse that happened years ago. You have a child with an abuser, you are setting that child up for years of pain.


----------

