# Cheater's regret? Real or not? Is a second chance worth it?



## NatashaYurino (Jan 2, 2012)

I found this on another site and it got to me because this is something I often wonder about myself. 

"NotBroken August 23, 2010 at 2:34 pm
I think the cheating spouse will only regret their decision if they lose something because of it. I don’t think the cheating spouse regrets cheating if the wife/husband decides to stay and work on the marriage. Because if they don’t divorce…. then what did they really lose? Nothing. Sure they created a problem and will have arguments, but in the end they win. They cheat and have fun… and as a result end up with a better marriage than they had before. For them it’s a win win situation, and for us betrayed spouses we suffer and lose everything. I’ve lost my sanity and my sense of security. I’ve lost everything I thought I had. My H lost nothing. I’m here the kids are here. What did he lose?"


We hear a lot about people being only human and that we all make mistakes and that everyone deserves a second chance but in the end are there any cheaters who genuinely regret what they did enough for a second chance to be really worth giving?


----------



## hoblob (Mar 28, 2018)

Many do. It sometimes takes years to sick in. The damage the relationship takes. I can tell you that my WW regrets it every day. Especially when she think, that even after all these years and all the work she's done, that i may still walk away and that she threw it away from a ****ty sex and bs feeling. 

I think you see it quite often. But it takes time for that regret to sick in. Many feel the shame almost instantaneously. But are there cheaters that don't feel shame or regret, of course.


----------



## poida (Jan 17, 2014)

I think we are all naive to think that ultimately, every action we take isn't for a selfish reason at some level. 
I didn't always think this way and I used to think there was a pretty black and white line between cheaters and non-cheaters.
Consider, is it really that unreasonable for cheaters to only feel regret for situations that affect their personal lives. We are individuals after all.
That then leaves us with the conundrum of where does this leave us in society? Can we every completely rely on others?
The tragedy of this thinking is the realization is that the answer is NO. 
To reconcile this, one needs to accept that people have beautiful parts and bad parts and we need to expect people to fall occasionally.
For me, it is about what a cheater does AFTER falling that counts. That is what shows how much beauty a person has in them.
I suppose this is what I have come to accept after my divorce and it has made me a better person.
With 4 years of hind-sight, I would probably have taken my wife back had she done what was needed after cheating, and I think I would have forgiven her eventually too. 
Hmm. First time Ive thought that. Interesting.


----------



## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

* Natasha
Because if they don’t divorce…. then what did they really lose? Nothing. Sure they created a problem and will have arguments, but in the end they win. They cheat and have fun… and as a result end up with a better marriage than they had before. For them it’s a win win situation,....*

When does it work that way?

Most posts I read the cheater had it rough when getting back together with his/her spouse. Then there are the majority of cases where there is a divorce and all that goes along with that type of break-up and lots of money spent separating.


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*And in most cases, I've found that the cheating spouse wants absolutely no part of reconciliation process because they find that the "prurient grass" that they've been grazing on satiates them way too much to ever give due consideration to it ~ at least that's been my personal experience!*


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

arbitrator said:


> *And in most cases, I've found that the cheating spouse wants absolutely no part of reconciliation process because they find that the "prurient grass" that they've been grazing on satiates them way too much to ever give due consideration to it ~ at least that's been my personal experience!*


Yes.

We blame the cheater, saying they are flawed.
Many are flawed.

Many are just selfish, are way too self-centered.

And many cheaters are just fed up. Fed up with their marriage and too weak, too complacent or too lazy to end it.
So they self-medicate, do so with an affair partner. Using an affair partner as an ego boosting elixir.

Do so, by 'Throwing caution to the Wind'.
Committing marital suicide.

And often, more than not, letting 'outside forces' compel them into behavior un-befitting of a moral human.
Not conducive to common place mores', common civilized practices.

Many act like chaff in the wind. The Wayward Wind.









TRQ-
from the files of SunCMars


----------



## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

SunC, everyone of us is flawed, some more than others and some use those flaws as excuses to walk all over others, to tear others apart, and then brush it off as simply being human. There are also those who are flawed but are determined to live a life of integrity and principle and choose not to accentuate their flaws but their strenghts. So cheating is always a major cop out.


----------



## rytyjay141 (Jan 16, 2018)

I’m married 30 years on the 12th. My husband had an affair for two years. This reconciliation (not easy) has made me come out of character many times producing a one night stand and me getting sexually assaulted outside of a bar after Someone slipped something in my drink. I was out drinking dealing with my feelings of rejection and self loathing thinking it was me. The Clarity I received with my deep self examination revealed that it was both of us. We both let each other down in a multitude of ways specifically having expectations that were not clearly defined mainly because we were 18 when we married. My advice to anyone who is still in love with their spouse try to accept the fact we are all flawed. Don’t let your lack of understanding stop you from recreating something new. We never had issues in the bedroom it was an emotional detachment we had from verbally abusing one another......that has all stopped and the result has been very beautiful. 
Meditation and prayer helps reveal to the spirit what we are unwilling to accept that most times is our EGO. 
Have a blessed day! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

Whether or not a second chance is worthwhile is much more about your feelings than theirs. The cheaters remorse really doesn't do much to reduce the pain of betrayal and restore trust. 

Personally, I don't see me ever reconciling with a cheater. I would NEVER be able to fully trust that person again and I refuse to make that sacrifice. Her feelings on what she did might help me forgive her eventually, but the non-refundable cost of her treachery would be losing me.


----------



## Graywolf2 (Nov 10, 2013)

I agree with the original post. That’s why I recommend getting a divorce and living together. 

There is no stigma today if you live together unmarried. You can even have kids and its fine.

Most people live together before getting married. If everything works out they promote their live in friend to spouse and give them extra security.

If one had an affair (broke the contract) then demote them back to friend. It’s like someone given a top secret clearance and then told secrets. Why MUST they retain their top secret clearance when they can’t be trusted with secrets?

Sooner or later you should stop reminding your WS about what they did. So you can look at them having a great time like nothing happened and think: “Yep but we are divorced.” Your friends can say “He had an affair and she divorced him.”


----------



## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

I'm not sure, that if the BS makes sure that the WS accepts the recommended consequences, that the WS has lost nothing. Being exposed to family, friends, and the OM's spouse, tighter marital boundaries and transparency, STD tests, weeks of not knowing whether the BS will divorce you, and the forever loss of complete trust from your spouse - that's losing something.

But more importantly, it should about the BS's capacity to forgive and obtaining the best outcome for the BS. The best outcome may not happen if the BS is more intent on cutting off his nose to spite his face.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

What does the cheater lose by reconciling? 

My affair was a one night stand. It still ranks as the best sex I've had in 35 years, and the best sex I will have for the rest of my life. So I gave up a satisfying sex life to remain married to a decent, kind, loving, forgiving, tolerant person. It was a cost worth paying in the balance, certainly, but a cost nonetheless. 

I permanantly fell off the pedestal my wife had put me on, because by her measure I had the highest character of anyone she had ever dated. Now I know that when she sees me, it's not only as flawed, but as more flawed than many. That's a long way to fall in someone's eyes.

Every time infidelity comes up in a movie or other cultural reference, I get to feel guilty and ashamed all over again - as it should be. If she has to recall the hurt, I should have to relive the shame.

None if these things compare to the damage I caused, but all could have been avoided by not reconciling. The fun enjoyed here by many in characterizing wayward spouses as little more than sociopathic hedonists is the typical simplistic drivel that ignores the complexities of human relationships. Everyone loses something when a marriage is driven to infidelity, whatever the reason.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


----------



## poida (Jan 17, 2014)

Cletus said:


> What does the cheater lose by reconciling?
> 
> My affair was a one night stand. It still ranks as the best sex I've had in 35 years, and the best sex I will have for the rest of my life. So I gave up a satisfying sex life to remain married to a decent, kind, loving, forgiving, tolerant person. It was a cost worth paying in the balance, certainly, but a cost nonetheless.
> 
> ...


Agree but there is something much more traumatic about the whole process being out of your control. 

As a cheater, you control every step of the way. You choose to cheat, you choose to R, you choose to stay, you choose to accept guilt.

Choice is the most powerful freedom we have.


----------



## VermiciousKnid (Nov 14, 2017)

Cletus said:


> What does the cheater lose by reconciling?
> 
> My affair was a one night stand. It still ranks as the best sex I've had in 35 years, and the best sex I will have for the rest of my life. So I gave up a satisfying sex life to remain married to a decent, kind, loving, forgiving, tolerant person. It was a cost worth paying in the balance, certainly, but a cost nonetheless.
> 
> ...


Sometimes people that were cheated on stereotype cheaters as heartless villains. Cheaters are people too. They feel shame, guilt, pain, and anguish just like everyone else. Even if they take a prideful stance when caught they still probably feel horrible knowing they've caused someone else so much pain. Being a divorce attorney for over 2 decades of course I'm going to have represented people who have been cheated on but I've also represented many people getting divorced who were the cheaters. Some of them are absolutely devastated by what they've done. Permanently changed by the fallout from their actions. What makes it worse for them is that they can't find sympathy anywhere. The standard stance of everyone around them is "good, you deserve it." I've represented cheaters where we helped their betrayed spouse rethink the divorce and call it off. I'm always rooting really hard for those couples when that happens.


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Wow, this is a good topic, and a good question. 

I have a dual mind on these questions, because I have been both. 

At this stage of my life, I can only wish I knew what I know now. 

As a man, I am of the opinion that if a women cheats on you, they are gone. I have ZERO sympathy for any cheaters, even myself. 

As a man, I just don't think that you can ever, ever get your balls back if you stay with a cheater. I my case, I reconciled more or less, for a time and I wish I had not even for a second. 

And I was not sexually shamed, or intimidated by her affair partners. I was just hurt, but I tried. I was actually more embarrassed by who she cheated with. None of 2 that I know of, were even half the man I am then or now. Mentally, physically, sexually, I was better in every way and still am. She had mental issues, I stood by her, I tried, and it just did not matter. She was crazy and she was always going to be crazy and I was never going to be able to fix it, I was a fool for trying. 

Of course she did way more horrible stuff than cheating, but when I was done I was done. Now, she lives in a crappy little rent house with roommates so she can afford to live, she has no one and nothing, and I could not care less. 

I will never ever be with a crazy woman, or a woman that disrespects me in anyway ever. And there is a huge line of women that made one mistake or another that litter the highway of my life. Some of them I loved, and sorry dear, you get one and only one chance with me, you blow that and you are toast. And it will be that way until the day I die. 

Now having said all of that, I am happy to report that my current GF is beautiful, sexy as hell, loving, kind, affectionate, an absolute dream in bed like none of the others before, and she loves me for me. Above all, SHE IS NOT CRAZY. 

My only concern and not a big one, is, does she love me because I am so wonderful or because she sex is great? Because you can't love someone just because the sex is great....

Can you?


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

zookeeper said:


> Whether or not a second chance is worthwhile is much more about your feelings than theirs. The cheaters remorse really doesn't do much to reduce the pain of betrayal and restore trust.
> 
> Personally, I don't see me ever reconciling with a cheater. I would NEVER be able to fully trust that person again and I refuse to make that sacrifice. Her feelings on what she did might help me forgive her eventually, but the non-refundable cost of her treachery would be losing me.


*Which is primarily why I probably just could not bring myself to ever entertain marriage with any woman who had ever cheated on any of her spousal partners in the span of her lifetime!

After all , once a cheater crosses that threshold, without verifiable remorse or recompense, the "cheating seed" has been well planted in their mind forever! And the sad thing is that they'll likely never forget exactly how and when to resort to it!*


----------



## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

Nope. I don't believe in second chances in this area. Best thing I ever did was cut losses and recreate my life.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

NatashaYurino said:


> We hear a lot about people being only human and that we all make mistakes and that everyone deserves a second chance but in the end are there any cheaters who genuinely regret what they did enough for a second chance to be really worth giving?


This is an interesting question. I think in many cases of R after certain types of affairs the cheater does get away with it on some level. I think it depends on the level of the betrayal. For example if your spouse had an EA or a ONS I think the chance for true R is greater than if they had a LTA or multiple APs. If a person betrays you for years or with multiple people they do get away with it if they keep their marriage. What I dont buy is when a serial adulterer or a cheater in a LTA feed the BS the line of bullsh!t that they punish themselves more than anyone could so deserve no further consequences. I also think sometimes a cheater will replace th ego kibbles from an affair with other behavior like posting on wayward message boards for a pat on the back about how they are a decent human being today. To me that shows no real change just a change in the type of ego kibbles they are seeking. Just my view.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

NatashaYurino said:


> I found this on another site and it got to me because this is something I often wonder about myself.
> 
> "NotBroken August 23, 2010 at 2:34 pm
> I think the cheating spouse will only regret their decision if they lose something because of it. I don’t think the cheating spouse regrets cheating if the wife/husband decides to stay and work on the marriage. Because if they don’t divorce…. then what did they really lose? Nothing. Sure they created a problem and will have arguments, but in the end they win. They cheat and have fun… and as a result end up with a better marriage than they had before. For them it’s a win win situation, and for us betrayed spouses we suffer and lose everything. I’ve lost my sanity and my sense of security. I’ve lost everything I thought I had. My H lost nothing. I’m here the kids are here. What did he lose?"
> ...


In my mind it doesn't really matter what they feel. First of all they are the ones who are plan B who would choose to be married to someone who cheats on them, no one. The person who stays has to accept so little. A cheating spouse is not a catch, they are ALWAYS the faithful spouses choice to settle. Besides that so many of them are just bad choices to be married to in the first place. They usually come with a lot of emotional problems that just make them poor choices for being a spouse. 

Also very few marriages are better then they were before. Maybe for the cheater but ask the one who has been cheated on. Also this assumes that they ever even got the profound nature of what the marriage, love and loyalty was in the first place. If they did they wouldn't have done it. They don't think like that, fidelity and loyalty is not part of how they see love. For most love is how YOU make THEM feel. See him for who he is not who you thought he was. You should detach from him it will give you a better prospective. 

And yes there are some rare ones who are truly devastated by their own choices. But that doesn't make them a good choice to spend the rest of your life with. Remorseful people don't make good spouses, emotionally healthy people with character do. You are the catch in this situation. You are a faithful spouse, you can do marriage. You are the one who has something to offer. 

If you feel like you lost everything you don't have to stay like that. Stop worrying about him, what do YOU want? You need to know that all the pain goes away when you love someone else. The pain gets it's power because you love them. Once you love someone else what they did no longer any power over you. It's hard to be happy when the person who abused you is with you every day as a reminder. Imagine someone assaulted you and beat you, then you had to live with them every day do you think that would help or hurt your healing?


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

VermiciousKnid said:


> Sometimes people that were cheated on stereotype cheaters as heartless villains. Cheaters are people too. They feel shame, guilt, pain, and anguish just like everyone else. Even if they take a prideful stance when caught they still probably feel horrible knowing they've caused someone else so much pain. Being a divorce attorney for over 2 decades of course I'm going to have represented people who have been cheated on but I've also represented many people getting divorced who were the cheaters. *Some of them are absolutely devastated by what they've done. Permanently changed by the fallout from their actions. What makes it worse for them is that they can't find sympathy anywhere.* The standard stance of everyone around them is "good, you deserve it." I've represented cheaters where we helped their betrayed spouse rethink the divorce and call it off. I'm always rooting really hard for those couples when that happens.


Sorry but their wounds were self-inflicted unlike those the BS has to deal with. In most cases they don't deserve sympathy especially if they are a serial cheater or had a LTA..


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Cletus said:


> What does the cheater lose by reconciling?
> 
> My affair was a one night stand. It still ranks as the best sex I've had in 35 years, and the best sex I will have for the rest of my life. So I gave up a satisfying sex life to remain married to a decent, kind, loving, forgiving, tolerant person. It was a cost worth paying in the balance, certainly, but a cost nonetheless.
> 
> ...


Sorry man. I have been so disjointed for a couple years that I never realized this happened in your marriage.

I don't think I would have fallen off the infidelity wagon in your situation but who knows. I know I couldn't walk your path however.

The word "tragic" comes to mind about your situation. Not your whole marriage but certainly important aspects of it.

As to the OP, it definitely depends on the cheater. Cheaters might all have some things in common but they are all individuals as well and I know that just because someone chooses selfishly and evil for a time doesn't mean they can't repent and choose better as well.

Infidelity truly sucks as a decision but I have made some whopper bad choices as have most of humanity at some point.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> As to the OP, it definitely depends on the cheater. Cheaters might all have some things in common but they are all individuals as well and I know that just because someone chooses selfishly and evil for a time doesn't mean they can't repent and choose better as well.
> 
> Infidelity truly sucks as a decision but I have made some whopper bad choices as have most of humanity at some point.


Good point but the level of the trangression - like a LTA, several APs, etc go right to the cheaters character and that can not be fixed easily. Cheaters might stop cheating but it does not been they are not still the same narcissistic, vein person they were during the A does it? They might engage in other ways to get their ego kibbles. What do you think?


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Good point but the level of the trangression - like a LTA, several APs, etc go right to the cheaters character and that can not be fixed easily. Cheaters might stop cheating but it does not been they are not still the same narcissistic, vein person they were during the A does it? They might engage in other ways to get their ego kibbles. What do you think?


Again it varies by person. A lot of people that have made a habit of making bad, selfish or evil choices most often don't change because that much change is a lot of work. A small percentage of them do however. They truly become better people.

As to a drunken ONS or other perfect storm type of cheater that is disgusted by their actions and have no desire to ever repeat them? Those folks have a much higher rate of changing for the better because there is far less to alter about themselves.

Multiple Aps, serial cheating and LTAs are definitely different animals and very hard to change character from. I would honestly have a much easier time getting a grip on a one time slip than multiple times or long term.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> Again it varies by person. A lot of people that have made a habit of making bad, selfish or evil choices most often don't change because that much change is a lot of work. A small percentage of them do however. They truly become better people.
> 
> As to a drunken ONS or other perfect storm type of cheater that is disgusted by their actions and have no desire to ever repeat them? Those folks have a much higher rate of changing for the better because there is far less to alter about themselves.
> 
> *Multiple Aps, serial cheating and LTAs are definitely different animals and very hard to change character from. I would honestly have a much easier time getting a grip on a one time slip than multiple times or long term.*


Agreed - which is why I dont think all affairs the same. 

for me its:
*
Online EA<EA<ONS<Brief affair<LTA or multiple APs*

I know they are exceptions in every type of affair but I just think the level of betrayal is deeper as you move right and the person is more damaged IMO.

I personally know of a case and have read of cases where the affair goes on for 15 0r 20 years - what is there to save after that? Whats left? I also don't understand how a BS reconciles with a WS who is now LD. Why sacrifice for that person? Are they really worth it? I think many BS are more afriad of the unknown than their known cheater at home. I do wonder how many BSs leave years later when the kids are grown or they have had enough.


----------



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Cletus said:


> <<snip>>
> 
> None if these things compare to the damage I caused, but all could have been avoided by not reconciling. *The fun enjoyed here by many in characterizing wayward spouses as little more than sociopathic hedonists is the typical simplistic drivel that ignores the complexities of human relationships. * Everyone loses something when a marriage is driven to infidelity, whatever the reason.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


Come on Cletus, is this really your perception?

Blanket statements such as this are kind of frustrating to me. 

What if we are dealing with a sociopathic hedonist?

How do you know that folks here haven't ALREADY considered the complexities of human relationships before making such an assessment?

In the time I've been on the board, sure, there are painful labelings made. some are spot on, others a mis-shoot.

Ultimately, it is good to remember that whatever pain a cheating person, a former cheating person, a didn't mean to cheating person, or even an I'm justified cheating person "feels" is self-inflicted.

Their victimization of their spouse can include emotional and physical traumas that impact a life forever. And I don't just mean that they have a hard time getting over something because they relish being the victim. Try cancer on for size, or HIV.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Honesty is a huge factor as well. One offs are likely to produce far less lying and are easier to forget and easier to confess.

Long affairs and multiple events require far greater levels of lying and betrayal, more planning, more intentional harm and determined manipulation.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> Honesty is a huge factor as well. One offs are likely to produce far less lying and are easier to forget and easier to confess.
> 
> Long affairs and multiple events require far greater levels of lying and betrayal, more planning, more intentional harm and determined manipulation.


Agreed. For me this person has far greater damage. And when the WS says they had no idea about the damage it would cause I call bulls!t. Did they live in a bubble? I have never cheated but I know what damage it does to spouses and families. Real character change it hard and I suspect many dont really change they just stop shagging other people. How many declare they'd divorce if their spouse had an affair while they are basking in the forgiveness their BS has just bestowed on them? For me if a cheater declares they cant forgive the same well I doubt their true remorse.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

michzz said:


> Ultimately, it is good to remember that whatever pain a cheating person, a former cheating person, a didn't mean to cheating person, or even an I'm justified cheating person "feels" is self-inflicted.
> 
> Their victimization of their spouse can include emotional and physical traumas that impact a life forever. And I don't just mean that they have a hard time getting over something because they relish being the victim. Try cancer on for size, or HIV.


Bingo or some other STD which could hinder future relationships. Like I've stated earlier there are different levels of affairs but a spouse who lies for YEARS or has multiple APs can NEVER know the devastation they have caused.


----------



## VermiciousKnid (Nov 14, 2017)

I'm a firm believer that everyone deserves a second chance but no one deserves a third.

I also think that real life change doesn't occur unless someone has experienced something life-altering. For an obese person it might be a heart attack. For an alcoholic it might be blacking out behind the wheel and surviving a bad car accident. For a smoker it might be a lung cancer diagnosis. For a drug addict it might be surviving an overdose where their heart stopped. I think for a cheater it has to be some great loss in their life. If they cheat and don't lost their spouse, kids, lifestyle, etc. then they learn nothing. There is no repercussion, hence no life-altering consequences, and no lesson learned except maybe to hide it better next time. Just because the cheater loses their marriage doesn't mean there will be no reconciliation. What the divorce does is free the betrayed spouse of any obligation to the cheating spouse so if the cheating spouse wants to earn redemption and another chance, at the discretion of the betrayed spouse, they'll have to earn it.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

VermiciousKnid said:


> I'm a firm believer that everyone deserves a second chance but no one deserves a third.
> 
> I also think that real life change doesn't occur unless someone has experienced something life-altering. For an obese person it might be a heart attack. For an alcoholic it might be blacking out behind the wheel and surviving a bad car accident. For a smoker it might be a lung cancer diagnosis. For a drug addict it might be surviving an overdose where their heart stopped. I think for a cheater it has to be some great loss in their life. *If they cheat and don't lost their spouse, kids, lifestyle, etc. then they learn nothing*. There is no repercussion, hence no life-altering consequences, and no lesson learned except maybe to hide it better next time. Just because the cheater loses their marriage doesn't mean there will be no reconciliation. What the divorce does is free the betrayed spouse of any obligation to the cheating spouse so if the cheating spouse wants to earn redemption and another chance, at the discretion of the betrayed spouse, they'll have to earn it.


I would have to agree with the bolded statement. I NEVER take a cheaters word for it that they "learned their lesson" For the record I think R is possible in certain cases of infidelity but sometimes too many lines get crossed so there is nothing left to save.


----------



## VermiciousKnid (Nov 14, 2017)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I would have to agree with the bolded statement. I NEVER take a cheaters word for it that they "learned their lesson" For the record I think R is possible in certain cases of infidelity but sometimes too many lines get crossed so there is nothing left to save.


I agree. Even if there is reconciliation on the horizon I'm a firm believer in divorcing the marriage. That is a real loss that a cheater can feel. They lost their marriage because of their actions. They may or may not get their former spouse back in the future, that is up to them, and since they are divorced their ex owes them nothing. I think that is a better way to approach reconciliation. When they stay married and attempt reconciliation then the betrayed spouse feels ripped off. Their cheating spouse had hot affair sex and lost nothing because of it. They got to keep their life and their loyal spouse. What did the betrayed spouse get? No hot affair sex and stuck with an untrustworthy spouse.

If, however, they divorce that's definitely real for the cheater. Their actions cost them their marriage. That's a life-altering event. I think that reconciliation in that circumstance could be on better footing because the betrayed person is no longer married to them and owes them nothing. At that point it's just dating and a complete re-evaluation by the betrayed person as to if this is a person they might want to get serious about. If not then they walk away. They're not married, they owe them nothing.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

VermiciousKnid said:


> I agree. Even if there is reconciliation on the horizon I'm a firm believer in divorcing the marriage. That is a real loss that a cheater can feel. They lost their marriage because of their actions. They may or may not get their former spouse back in the future, that is up to them, and since they are divorced their ex owes them nothing. I think that is a better way to approach reconciliation. When they stay married and attempt reconciliation then the betrayed spouse feels ripped off. *Their cheating spouse had hot affair sex and lost nothing because of it. They got to keep their life and their loyal spouse. What did the betrayed spouse get? No hot affair sex and stuck with an untrustworthy spouse.*
> 
> If, however, they divorce that's definitely real for the cheater. Their actions cost them their marriage. That's a life-altering event. I think that reconciliation in that circumstance could be on better footing because the betrayed person is no longer married to them and owes them nothing. At that point it's just dating and a complete re-evaluation by the betrayed person as to if this is a person they might want to get serious about. If not then they walk away. They're not married, they owe them nothing.


This is an imbalance not talked about enough. Especially in cases when both spouses were virgins when they married or were their spouses one and only. How do you live with the fact that your spouse got experiences you wont if you stay married to them? I've read where BS get hit on after dday and do nothing. I admire them on one level for living their code but I dont get it myself. 

In many cases the cheater whether they R or D learn nothing or very little. When you see a WS talking about "loving themselves" again after dday my thought is - didnt you love yourself too much during your A?


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

For me I just don't think they make good spouses. Regret and even real change doesn't change that in my mind. Real change takes years of therapy and discussion about their broken thinking, trial and error. Just general drama, that involves being married to someone who has major boundary issues. Then you got all the baggage and the trigger that their very presence is in your life. Finally the affair becomes the primary focus of your relationship for years, with the added bonus of the affair partner's ghost being there with you all the time. How can you have true intimacy without trust, and it's just not logical trust someone who can do such a thing. 

Then you have the potential demeaning nature of giving love to someone who actively abused you. That just doesn't seem healthy. If it was physical abuse no one would disagree with me on that. What's the difference. 

Finally no matter what your marriage was going to end sometime. Someone was going to die, so their is really no mythical "ever after" anyway. There billions of persons out there and even if .01% of them are compatible with you that is a hell of a lot of people. Life is too short, the payoff is not worth the price at least for me. 

So my answer is NO it's not worth it. But it's your life maybe it is for you. Only you can answer that question, but again I suggest you make your decision on how you think the rest of your life will be, not on if he is sorry or not.


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

*So here is a test...*

So here is a test...

Some people say that Steve's wife wants a second chance and that she is remorseful and deserves a second chance. 

We could debate that, but here is a test that will tell the tell for sure. 

Steve could offer her a chance if she signs a divorce decree stating the following: Steve gets 100% of all marital assets, primary custody of the child, she can have ever weekend, and she quits her job, finds a new one, and moves out of the house. 

She gets to keep any retirement money SHE has put away. And Steve gets to ROAST the OM and expose to everyone in the world. 

Then he will agree to date her, when he has time. 

Now, if she would take that deal, I would tell Steve to take that deal. Steve could date her, and she has to get in line with all the other women that he feels like dating. 

If she takes that deal, she might be remorseful. If not, you have your answer.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

*Re: So here is a test...*

@BluesPower - I think the BS needs to take their time either way beofre deciding on R or D. They need to choose form strength and not fear. I do wonder how many BS rush to R or D regret it years later. Especially those who R.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> *Then you have the potential demeaning nature of giving love to someone who actively abused you. That just doesn't seem healthy. If it was physical abuse no one would disagree with me on that. What's the difference. *


The term abuse is not used enough when describing what a WS did to their BS. It's abuse plain and simple.


----------



## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

VermiciousKnid said:


> I agree. Even if there is reconciliation on the horizon I'm a firm believer in divorcing the marriage. That is a real loss that a cheater can feel. They lost their marriage because of their actions. They may or may not get their former spouse back in the future, that is up to them, and since they are divorced their ex owes them nothing. I think that is a better way to approach reconciliation. When they stay married and attempt reconciliation then the betrayed spouse feels ripped off. Their cheating spouse had hot affair sex and lost nothing because of it. They got to keep their life and their loyal spouse. What did the betrayed spouse get? No hot affair sex and stuck with an untrustworthy spouse.
> 
> If, however, they divorce that's definitely real for the cheater. Their actions cost them their marriage. That's a life-altering event. I think that reconciliation in that circumstance could be on better footing because the betrayed person is no longer married to them and owes them nothing. At that point it's just dating and a complete re-evaluation by the betrayed person as to if this is a person they might want to get serious about. If not then they walk away. They're not married, they owe them nothing.


In your years as a divorce lawyer have you seen more than a handful of couples divorce then later reconcile or remarry. I only know one that did and they eventually divorced again.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

honcho said:


> In your years as a divorce lawyer have you seen more than a handful of couples divorce then later reconcile or remarry. I only know one that did and they eventually divorced again.


I also wonder how many BS divorce years later after the shock wears off.


----------



## VermiciousKnid (Nov 14, 2017)

honcho said:


> In your years as a divorce lawyer have you seen more than a handful of couples divorce then later reconcile or remarry. I only know one that did and they eventually divorced again.


With the clients I've kept in contact with I have to be honest...the outcome that works best for both as far as healing and happiness is they divorce, go their separate ways, and interact very little with each other. If they bump into each other only occasionally because of shared children then they even end up friendly because they've both moved on. 

I've yet to see a reconciliation really ever get either party what they'd really want out of a relationship. Especially the betrayed spouse. I've seen divorces called off because they tried to reconcile only to have them come back in a year or two and go through with it. I've seen couples divorce and then get back together. I'm not saying it doesn't happen that they fully recover and have an awesome marriage as we've heard tales about, what I am saying is that in over 20 years of practice I've never seen that myself and I've been involved with thousands of divorces.

I'm a romantic. I root for reconciliation. My professional side, however, would advise against it only from experience.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

@VermiciousKnid - do you have a lot of BS who come in years later and want a divorce because they can't get past the affair?


----------



## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Cletus said:


> What does the cheater lose by reconciling?
> 
> My affair was a one night stand. It still ranks as the best sex I've had in 35 years, and the best sex I will have for the rest of my life. So I gave up a satisfying sex life to remain married to a decent, kind, loving, forgiving, tolerant person. It was a cost worth paying in the balance, certainly, but a cost nonetheless.
> 
> ...


Yes, you got to keep the "decent, kind, loving, forgiving, tolerant person" but what did she get? 
I can see the benefits for you but not for her, she is still triggered by your infidelity I am sure, and she now knows that you had your penis in another woman, not something any woman wants to imagine of their H.

I love your choice of words 'when a marriage is driven to infidelity' disengaging much? That right there doesn't sound like owning your s*** to me. The only one who 'drove' you to stick your penis in someone other than your wife was yourself, plain and simple, don't try to dress it any other way. 
If you were unhappy in the marriage, then stand up and do the right thing and ask for a divorce. 

If she had dumped you, you would have lost the decent, kind loving person all for one night of fantastic sex, seems like a shallow trade off to me.


----------



## kekkek (Apr 5, 2018)

aine said:


> Yes, you got to keep the "decent, kind, loving, forgiving, tolerant person" but what did she get?
> I can see the benefits for you but not for her, she is still triggered by your infidelity I am sure, and she now knows that you had your penis in another woman, not something any woman wants to imagine of their H.
> 
> I love your choice of words 'when a marriage is driven to infidelity' disengaging much? That right there doesn't sound like owning your s*** to me. The only one who 'drove' you to stick your penis in someone other than your wife was yourself, plain and simple, don't try to dress it any other way.
> ...


I like this straight talk. Infidelity sounds so fancy and sophisticated, almost prestigious, especially if you are that sensitive soul who is "driven to it" by the intensity of your feelings. I get that humans are human. I can understand that people might fall in and out of love, fall in love with someone else, all kinds of things. That hurts feelings, hearts, etc. But *penetration* risks pregnancy and STDs. Kind of like the difference between drinking and drunk driving. Although you can arguably be driven to drink, no one is "driven to drunk drive" by circumstances. Show some restraint - settle for a handjob!


----------



## VermiciousKnid (Nov 14, 2017)

Truthseeker1 said:


> @VermiciousKnid - do you have a lot of BS who come in years later and want a divorce because they can't get past the affair?


We see about every scenario imaginable and I have seen this one you're describing a few times. Sometimes they're heartbreaking because both spouses wanted it to work but it's just not going to and they give up. Usually in a case like that it's amicable and they both use the same attorney to save money. There's nothing to fight over, they just want to make sure all the legalities of their divorce are handled correctly.

I remember one couple in this scenario where they both cried and hugged through several of our meetings with them. He had cheated, they did everything prescribed to save the marriage but she just wasn't going to get past it. They were never going to be equal partners again. He was always going to be the cheater and she was always going to be the victim of it so they came to a realization that the only way forward was apart. They literally cried through every meeting. It was heartbreaking.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

VermiciousKnid said:


> We see about every scenario imaginable and I have seen this one you're describing a few times. Sometimes they're heartbreaking because both spouses wanted it to work but it's just not going to and they give up. Usually in a case like that it's amicable and they both use the same attorney to save money. There's nothing to fight over, they just want to make sure all the legalities of their divorce are handled correctly.
> 
> I remember one couple in this scenario where they both cried and hugged through several of our meetings with them. He had cheated, they did everything prescribed to save the marriage but she just wasn't going to get past it. They were never going to be equal partners again. He was always going to be the cheater and she was always going to be the victim of it so they came to a realization that the only way forward was apart. They literally cried through every meeting. It was heartbreaking.


Very sad - the reason I ask is it seems ot me that once the shock wears off the BS is in a better position to survey the marriage and opt for something else. Cheaters dont realize the extent of the damage they are doing do they?


----------



## VermiciousKnid (Nov 14, 2017)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Very sad - the reason I ask is it seems ot me that once the shock wears off the BS is in a better position to survey the marriage and opt for something else. Cheaters dont realize the extent of the damage they are doing do they?


Unless they've also been betrayed by someone they loved with all their heart then no, they can't really understand what they've done. Unfortunately I've also had to represent unremorseful cheaters as well as good-intentioned former cheaters that just don't get it. I've heard many times "why can't they just get over it?"

I recently watched the first season of Ozark on Netflix. The wife is a cheater. She gets busted and all she says to her husband is people cheat. People have sex with other people they're not married to. Get over it.

I'm glad they wrote her character that way because I've seen a lot of that in my office over the years. Of course I've also seen the devastated cheaters that are almost suicidal over the pain they've caused others and would give anything to take it all back.


----------



## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

*Re: So here is a test...*



BluesPower said:


> So here is a test...
> 
> Some people say that Steve's wife wants a second chance and that she is remorseful and deserves a second chance.
> 
> ...


That's a good idea in theory but not likely in practice. When people are facing the end of their marriage because they cheated, even if they'd like to preserve the marriage, they are unlikely to give everything up for that opportunity because it could all be a ploy by the BS to get a more amicable D settlement. Too many BS's are so royally pissed off and want payback that it just doesn't make any sense for a WS to take that risk. If there was an offer that would seriously be considered by the BS it would have to be a little more balanced than that one.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

VermiciousKnid said:


> Unless they've also been betrayed by someone they loved with all their heart then no, they can't really understand what they've done. Unfortunately I've also had to represent unremorseful cheaters as well as good-intentioned former cheaters that just don't get it. I've heard many times "why can't they just get over it?"


I would think "get over it" is a common reaction which is why cheaters deserve to feel betrayal IMO. Not only do they deserve it but it will be an education.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

*Re: So here is a test...*



Bananapeel said:


> That's a good idea in theory but not likely in practice. When people are facing the end of their marriage because they cheated, even if they'd like to preserve the marriage, they are unlikely to give everything up for that opportunity because it could all be a ploy by the BS to get a more amicable D settlement. Too many BS's are so royally pissed off and want payback that it just doesn't make any sense for a WS to take that risk. If there was an offer that would seriously be considered by the BS it would have to be a little more balanced than that one.


The WS has been destructively selfish up until this point so why wouldnt that continue in divorce neogtiations? For most cheaters its all about them.


----------



## VermiciousKnid (Nov 14, 2017)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I would think "get over it" is a common reaction which is why cheaters deserve to feel betrayal IMO. Not only do they deserve it but it will be an education.


I can also empathize, as much as I'm willing to, with the cheater in why they'd like everyone to "get over it". What they did was a horrible thing and they caused a lot of pain to the person or people they love most. Every time they're reminded of that they feel bad about themselves. People don't like to feel bad, especially about things they've done that caused others harm. It would be ideal for a cheater if everyone they've caused pain to would just get over it and move on. In that respect I understand the "why can't they get over it?" I think the very fact that they ask that question, however, shows me a lack of real empathy for those they've cheated on. I've known enough betrayed spouses who were just crushed where the last question you should ever pose to them is "why can't you get over it?"


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

kekkek said:


> I like this straight talk. Infidelity sounds so fancy and sophisticated, almost prestigious, especially if you are that sensitive soul who is "driven to it" by the intensity of your feelings. I get that humans are human. I can understand that people might fall in and out of love, fall in love with someone else, all kinds of things.


It's interesting as I was reading another thread and the WS was saying how, the affair was not about their BS it was all about the WS, "It was never about my husband or my affair partner, it was always about me!" The whole mirroring aspect, how now that it's over, they say they didn't even know their AP. This is a part of the whole intensity of feeling and all that that you mention. But what I find from reading most WS, is that in fact, the marriage was also about the WS too. At the time their love for their spouse and even their family was also a kind of mirroring. I think this accounts for those spouses who when their kids grow up and leave or when they go through a mid-life crisis seem to change so dramatically and have affairs.

That's kind of the point. Love for them is a feeling that the person makes them feel about themselves. So if current romance becomes old and matter of fact or there is a dramatic change, when a new person causes all these feelings about themselves they mistake that this intense "love" they found. It's what would be called love at first sight. But someone making you feel good about yourself is not love. It's really just chemistry. Love at first sight means, this person is really attractive and the though of being with them makes me feel great, and they feel the same way about me. That's not love. Healthy people understand this and have boundaries to not go down that road. That is a potential for love but it's not even a basis for a relationship. It's a basis to start dating and only when you are single. It's not even special as you can have that with LOTS of people. 

It also accounts for the kind of dissonance of these WS, who are one day professing deep love for their BS and just a month later the same for their AP. Then only after being caught are raving about their love for BS again, sometimes in mere weeks. The whole thing rings kind of hollow. They mistake love for an intense feeling of want. New attraction creates that intensity. Then fear of loss creates that intensity. These are not healthy individuals and this is not a healthy way to live or have relationships. It certainly isn't love. 

Most healthy people understand, especially with experience, that love is a deep kind of bonding that is more like a slow burn. It's like a soldering of both peoples identities. I think when that real love is broken it usually takes years of detachment, built up from deep disappointment and hurt. Now one person may not notice the other detaching so it seems like a shock, but that is what has happened. These situations are what we call exit affairs. In those cases their is no attempt to R, because the love has been gone for a while. 

It's really up to the BS if they are willing to wait while the WS fights against unhealthy patterns and learn new ones. In a sense they are really just learning how to love for the first time. First though they have to acknowledge that they don't know what love is.


----------



## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

*Re: So here is a test...*



Truthseeker1 said:


> The WS has been destructively selfish up until this point so why wouldnt that continue in divorce neogtiations? For most cheaters its all about them.


It's all about them sexually because that is part of the fantasy. But, finances can take a different route because that is reality. So even if they are selfish they aren't always able to blend those two worlds.


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

VermiciousKnid said:


> I can also empathize, as much as I'm willing to, with the cheater in why they'd like everyone to "get over it". What they did was a horrible thing and they caused a lot of pain to the person or people they love most. Every time they're reminded of that they feel bad about themselves. People don't like to feel bad, especially about things they've done that caused others harm. It would be ideal for a cheater if everyone they've caused pain to would just get over it and move on. In that respect I understand the "why can't they get over it?" I think the very fact that they ask that question, however, shows me a lack of real empathy for those they've cheated on. I've known enough betrayed spouses who were just crushed where the last question you should ever pose to them is "why can't you get over it?"


Well I must say that you are a far better person than I ever will be. I cannot and in fact will not empathize with a cheater, most especially if they even verbalize this sentiment. IMHO, the cheater with this attitude never deserves R in any way. 

I am not saying that someone cannot make a bad decision and cheat. And I am not saying that no WS ever deserves consideration about a second chance. 

What I am saying is that in my experience, they are just few and far between. Between my personal experience, friends and all my time on these boards, I think I may have seen 5 out of thousands that really understood that they had done such a horrendous deed that it was almost unspeakable. And they were willing to do ANYTHING under the sun to make it up to the BS. While I am sure my anecdotal results are skewed, I am starting to feel that IRL the actual results are not far off. 

The WS's that actually deserve a second chance, I am pulling for them. The ones that don't I say burn them to the ground...


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

*Re: So here is a test...*



Bananapeel said:


> It's all about them sexually because that is part of the fantasy. But, finances can take a different route because that is reality. So even if they are selfish they aren't always able to blend those two worlds.


I think there should be some kind of financial penalty for the WS in the divorce settlement. Do I think it will ever happen? No but then again the BS rarely gets justice do they?


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

VermiciousKnid said:


> I can also empathize, as much as I'm willing to, with the cheater in why they'd like everyone to "get over it". What they did was a horrible thing and they caused a lot of pain to the person or people they love most. Every time they're reminded of that they feel bad about themselves. People don't like to feel bad, especially about things they've done that caused others harm. It would be ideal for a cheater if everyone they've caused pain to would just get over it and move on. In that respect I understand the "why can't they get over it?"* I think the very fact that they ask that question, however, shows me a lack of real empathy for those they've cheated on.* I've known enough betrayed spouses who were just crushed where the last question you should ever pose to them is "why can't you get over it?"


No sh!t. A cheater shows a lack of empathy the first time they get naked with someone else. They want people to "get over it" because they want to get away with it. And sadly many do. I think more and more the only thing that will teach them a real lesson is if they are betrayed. That is it.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

BluesPower said:


> Well I must say that you are a far better person than I ever will be. I cannot and in fact will not empathize with a cheater, most especially if they even verbalize this sentiment. IMHO, the cheater with this attitude never deserves R in any way.
> 
> I am not saying that someone cannot make a bad decision and cheat. And I am not saying that no WS ever deserves consideration about a second chance.
> 
> ...


I have to agree with this - in my real life experience most couples who did R - rug swept. I still think that is the way most people deal with infidelity when they get caught.


----------



## smi11ie (Apr 21, 2016)

i think it depends alot on the cheater’s first reaction. If it was a work place affair they should quit immediately. They should agree to no contact without blinking. They should OFFER full transparency on phone and computer. 

I think if there is any resistance then their remorse is probably fake.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

BluesPower said:


> What I am saying is that in my experience, they are just few and far between. Between my personal experience, friends and all my time on these boards, I think I may have seen 5 out of thousands that really understood that they had done such a horrendous deed that it was almost unspeakable. And they were willing to do ANYTHING under the sun to make it up to the BS. While I am sure my anecdotal results are skewed, I am starting to feel that IRL the actual results are not far off.
> 
> The WS's that actually deserve a second chance, I am pulling for them. The ones that don't I say burn them to the ground...


Even with all that, in my mind it's not what the BS should use as the main factor to decide to R. I personally believe it should be quality of life going forward. Granted you can't even get there without the WS who is contrite like this. But they can do anything the BS wants and it still doesn't mean the BS can recover while staying with someone who so horribly abused them. How many threads have you read where the BS says, my WS is doing everything but it's still all I think about. Sometimes decades later. That is why it's so rare, first 5 in 1000 WS this contrite, and then 5 in 1000 BS have the ability to heal when the person who did this to you is still your primary relationship. 

I don't say burn WS to the ground though. I actually hope that they learn from their mistake, do the work to change and then find a healthy relationship. I just think that in most case even when they are really sorry for what they did, there is just no chance for a healthy relationship after so much abuse. Some things you just don't recover from, you just learn to live with.


----------



## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

*Re: So here is a test...*



Truthseeker1 said:


> I think there should be some kind of financial penalty for the WS in the divorce settlement. Do I think it will ever happen? No but then again the BS rarely gets justice do they?


Agreed. Usually the only justice is the BS dumping the WS and moving on with their life. If that happens quickly usually the BS can come out ahead, especially if the WS is still caught up in the fog.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

*Re: So here is a test...*



Bananapeel said:


> Agreed. Usually the only justice is the BS dumping the WS and moving on with their life. If that happens quickly usually the BS can come out ahead, especially if the WS is still caught up in the fog.


The Bs should use every advantage they have to get a favorable settlement. The WS will and not feel guilty about it in many cases. The trouble is when the A is discovered all of a sudden boundaries are discovered and a straight jacket seems to be put on the BS on how to act. Ever notice that? The cheater disrespects their marriage, their Bs without any regards for the rules but when discovered they have a new appreciation for rules.


----------



## VermiciousKnid (Nov 14, 2017)

Truthseeker1 said:


> No sh!t. A cheater shows a lack of empathy the first time they get naked with someone else. They want people to "get over it" because they want to get away with it. And sadly many do. I think more and more the only thing that will teach them a real lesson is if they are betrayed. That is it.


There is almost a conspiracy against betrayed spouses to "get over it." In my experience I've seen that many times. Their cheater says "get over it." Their therapist, parents, friends, coworkers, etc. all say "get over it." What I fear they all don't realize is that isolates the betrayed person. They don't want to just get over it and telling them to is NOT supporting them the way they need.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

VermiciousKnid said:


> There is almost a conspiracy against betrayed spouses to "get over it." In my experience I've seen that many times. Their cheater says "get over it." Their therapist, parents, friends, coworkers, etc. all say "get over it." What I fear they all don't realize is that isolates the betrayed person. They don't want to just get over it and telling them to is NOT supporting them the way they need.


The BS needs to take MASSIVE personal responsibility and voice their opinion even if it means confronting everyone. I know of a case IRL where the father was a BH who was divorcing his wife. His wife then got sick and he took her back since her case was terminal but did so out of duty and not love. His son resented him and did not understand his father - until guess what? It happened to him and his own kids resented him. The father responded "maybe he will understand me better now".


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

VermiciousKnid said:


> There is almost a conspiracy against betrayed spouses to "get over it." In my experience I've seen that many times. Their cheater says "get over it." Their therapist, parents, friends, coworkers, etc. all say "get over it." What I fear they all don't realize is that isolates the betrayed person. They don't want to just get over it and telling them to is NOT supporting them the way they need.


Actually, there is way more to it than this, and I think it is an unintentional conspiracy. 

1) Obviously the WS, wants the BS to "Get over it", because they do not want to deal with the fallout for what they have done. They want everyone to be OK, and they actually want no "personal accountability". In fact, those that were brave enough back on LoveShack, actually bristled initially because everyone there was telling them what was going on in the BS's head, and giving them a glimpse, just a glimpse mind you, of the pain that the BS was in. They just could not understand, and some left because they could not take the criticism. 

But those that stayed, actually learned, and started to realize what they had actually done. It was hard for them, but the ones that had the courage, actually benefitted and became better people. 

2) Parents are usually clueless and you have this upper middle class attitude of "nothing needs to upset my perfect world". That attitude is what caused their son or daughter to cheat in the first place. But every problem in their lives were swept under the rug in the past so why can't this one be swept under the rug as well. 

3) Therapists - Now this one is the real disservice to the world. I don't know where it came from, but there is a school of thought in this field that you "leave everything in the past", "Start New", and bla, bla, bla.... Now that may work for dirty laundry but it does not work for affairs, never did, never will. 

And it is really easy to figure out that is does not work. The internet and a bunch of other resources will explain this. So what is it? Are the lazy, not likely, but possible. Are they stupid? Again, not likely, but I may be possible. 

But what I think it really is, is that they are uncomfortable helping couples sort through that level of pain and emotion. 

And if that is the cause, they should not be in the business of counseling.

Saying get over it is the worst possible thing that you can say to a BS, IMHO...


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

BluesPower said:


> Actually, there is way more to it than this, and I think it is an unintentional conspiracy.
> 
> 1) Obviously the WS, wants the BS to "Get over it", because they do not want to deal with the fallout for what they have done. They want everyone to be OK, and they actually want no "personal accountability". In fact, those that were brave enough back on LoveShack, actually bristled initially because everyone there was telling them what was going on in the BS's head, and giving them a glimpse, just a glimpse mind you, of the pain that the BS was in. They just could not understand, and some left because they could not take the criticism.
> 
> ...


Yeah and also just people just don't like change. I think this really accounts for a lot of the family saying get over it. Change is hard for a lot of people.


----------



## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

*Re: So here is a test...*



Truthseeker1 said:


> The Bs should use every advantage they have to get a favorable settlement. The WS will and not feel guilty about it in many cases. The trouble is when the A is discovered all of a sudden boundaries are discovered and a straight jacket seems to be put on the BS on how to act. Ever notice that? The cheater disrespects their marriage, their Bs without any regards for the rules but when discovered they have a new appreciation for rules.


Yup, I've noticed and have been there. Turned out really good for me in the end though, so I don't complain.


----------



## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Good point but the level of the trangression - like a LTA, several APs, etc *go right to the cheaters character and that can not be fixed easily.* Cheaters might stop cheating but it does not been they are not still the same narcissistic, vein person they were during the A does it? They might engage in other ways to get their ego kibbles. What do you think?


Add to your list EA. A person who has an EA while married and who "falls in love" with the EA partner crosses all kinds of boundaries before it gets to an EA level.

That doesn't happen in a vacuum. They have serious character flaws, which they may have hidden or managed to manipulate their BS into not understanding or identifying whenever they (the character flaws) were in danger of being found out. (i.e. prevaricating, deflecting, daydreaming, outright lying, deception, inability or refusal to communicate about unpleasant things...all things not directly related to affairs or even sex, but which laid a foundation in the WS allowing them to be open to the deception of starting and remaining in any form of A)

Unless they address and fix their character flaws, they are not safe people to be married to, since they will continue to affect the BS and the marriage with those flaws even if they don't have another A.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

*Re: So here is a test...*



Bananapeel said:


> Yup, I've noticed and have been there. Turned out really good for me in the end though, so I don't complain.


These new found "boundaries" for the WS are laugable after they spent years shagging their AP or engaged in affairs wiht multiples APs. Now you have boundaries. What is just as annoying is the BSs who agree with them.


----------



## VermiciousKnid (Nov 14, 2017)

BluesPower said:


> Actually, there is way more to it than this, and I think it is an unintentional conspiracy.
> 
> 1) Obviously the WS, wants the BS to "Get over it", because they do not want to deal with the fallout for what they have done. They want everyone to be OK, and they actually want no "personal accountability". In fact, those that were brave enough back on LoveShack, actually bristled initially because everyone there was telling them what was going on in the BS's head, and giving them a glimpse, just a glimpse mind you, of the pain that the BS was in. They just could not understand, and some left because they could not take the criticism.
> 
> ...


One thing I've also noticed in my experience is that no BS ever advises another BS to "get over it." That alone sheds a lot of light on the situation. Everyone in the "hasn't been betrayed" camp says get over it. Very few, if any, from the betrayed camp say that. When a person understands the experience of the BS they seem to know this is NOT something to tell someone who has been cheated on.


----------



## hoblob (Mar 28, 2018)

VermiciousKnid said:


> One thing I've also noticed in my experience is that no BS ever advises another BS to "get over it." That alone sheds a lot of light on the situation. Everyone in the "hasn't been betrayed" camp says get over it. Very few, if any, from the betrayed camp say that. When a person understands the experience of the BS they seem to know this is NOT something to tell someone who has been cheated on.


I can tell you that after my gf cheated and we split for a bit and then got back together, there was a bit of the "we're putting it past us". 1 years later, she was different. She woke me up one day and cried her eyes out about what she did. How she hurt me, how i must have felt. It went on until the morning. It was the moment it clicked. PEople that cheat and the relationship ends after often don't get it because they stop seeing the pain. That's why its easier to marry your AP than to stay in a relationship. You simply don't reform and you'll end up doing the same thing to them. (but they obviously should have seen it coming)
I had been with her, partially because of the fact that I was strapped for cash and she funding me (not proud of that) but afterwards our relationship improved tremendously. She would never say get over it. Sometimes i fear that she hasn't forgiven herself, because it is important that she does. She always says "how can I?, I was such a terribly immature, entitled and stunted person." (all true)


----------



## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

I agree with what's been said in posts above about the 'get over it'. It's just mumbo jumbo by ignorant people. 
It's all about learning to live with it. There isn't an ON/OFF switch. 

On another note, I think 1 in 100 reconciliations work, maybe only 1 in 1000. 
'Work' means just that. Work. 
All marriages need 'work' but the 'work' of getting past an A is drudgery. 
What a way to live ones life for the BS in R; years of constant pain and vigilance which will diminish but will never go away fully. We only get one life & the years go by all too quickly. So BS wastes it on a WS. The pain of leaving WS is far less because BS has the reassuring thought that WS traded them in behind their backs. BS who R live daily with that same 'reassuring' thought. 
I say dump WS and give yourself the opportunity of meeting a decent and honourable human being who if the marriage isn't working either tries to work on it or leaves. 
Sure, in R the WS has to work too but they had and will always have the upper hand. 
That is because their trust was never broken. 
Trust is the key. I think it's extremely rare for BS to regain it, regardless of how much WS does.
If someone bashed you within an inch of your life would you trust them again? Even if you really wanted to? Betrayal is an emotional battering. 
I knew an 85 year old woman once, who at her husband's funeral wept all day. But all she kept saying over and over again was, 
"Why did he have the affair?"
The affair had happened 50 years before. 
That just about sums it up.


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

hoblob said:


> I can tell you that after my gf cheated and we split for a bit and then got back together, there was a bit of the "we're putting it past us". 1 years later, she was different. She woke me up one day and cried her eyes out about what she did. How she hurt me, how i must have felt. It went on until the morning. It was the moment it clicked. PEople that cheat and the relationship ends after often don't get it because they stop seeing the pain. That's why its easier to marry your AP than to stay in a relationship. You simply don't reform and you'll end up doing the same thing to them. (but they obviously should have seen it coming)
> I had been with her, partially because of the fact that I was strapped for cash and she funding me (not proud of that) but afterwards our relationship improved tremendously. She would never say get over it. Sometimes i fear that she hasn't forgiven herself, because it is important that she does. She always says "how can I?, I was such a terribly immature, entitled and stunted person." (all true)


This is an example of a remorseful partner. I agree with most of this post as well. Except for the part about the WS forgiving their selves. They don't need to forgive themselves they need to hurt so that can remember just a pinch of the pain that they caused. 

When a WS actually becomes remorseful, they feel some of the pain that they caused, a small amount. 

But the most remorseful WS in the world, will still only feel a small portion of the pain that they inflicted. It will make them sad, and some may actually think that they now fell the pain that they caused. 

But the irony is that a WS, can NEVER truly understand the pain that they caused the BS. 

And the one caveat to that is when a WS is cheated on by someone else that is not BS that they loved as much as the BS loved them. That is the only time they can understand the pain. 

I say a person different than BS because most WS should expect the BS to cheat. Some even want them to cheat, so they can get off the hook. But it is not the same in any way as a blind sided BS who just found out...

So @hoblob was it a full blown affair for a while or an ONS?


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

michzz said:


> Come on Cletus, is this really your perception?


Been reading the rest of this thread, with the experts opining long and hard on the merits of cheating spouses? What they are capable of feeling, knowing, and experiencing in their utterly depraved self absorbed state? 

I won't have a ton of time to respond since I'm spending a couple of weeks in the Islands with my reconciled spouse. She sure seems to be enjoying my company, all expert opinions to the contrary. Too bad I'll have to tell her that our ongoing marriage is a sham.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

********** said:


> I agree with what's been said in posts above about the 'get over it'. It's just mumbo jumbo by ignorant people.
> It's all about learning to live with it. There isn't an ON/OFF switch.
> 
> On another note, I think 1 in 100 reconciliations work, maybe only 1 in 1000.
> ...


I feel like I am reading my own post. :smile2:


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

BluesPower said:


> This is an example of a remorseful partner. I agree with most of this post as well. Except for the part about the WS forgiving their selves. They don't need to forgive themselves they need to hurt so that can remember just a pinch of the pain that they caused.
> 
> When a WS actually becomes remorseful, they feel some of the pain that they caused, a small amount.
> 
> ...


No one gets over infidelity they just learn to live with it. Even if the pain is gone it still alters your life in profound ways.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

*Re: So here is a test...*



Truthseeker1 said:


> These new found "boundaries" for the WS are laugable after they spent years shagging their AP or engaged in affairs wiht multiples APs. Now you have boundaries. What is just as annoying is the BSs who agree with them.


For a lot of these cheaters, 'boundaries' really means they just need to work a lot harder to avoid getting caught the NEXT time.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

*Re: So here is a test...*



She'sStillGotIt said:


> For a lot of these cheaters, 'boundaries' really means they just need to work a lot harder to avoid getting caught the NEXT time.


Or finding other ways to get their ego kibbles. They replace one attention seeking behavior with another.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

********** said:


> *I knew an 85 year old woman once, who at her husband's funeral wept all day. But all she kept saying over and over again was,
> "Why did he have the affair?"
> The affair had happened 50 years before.
> That just about sums it up.*


*
*

I think infidelity casts a long shadow that never fully goes away. That is the reality of it. People can and do stay together everyday but it seems to me the affair changes things permanently.


----------



## hoblob (Mar 28, 2018)

@BluesPower, it was a one week fling. I was told about and she immediately confessed. IT was the harshest blow i ever felt. Our relationship was not strong then, so it wasn't one of those i thought everything was perfect and boom. I knew it wasn't perfect, but it still killed. We grew from it. I had my own indiscretions afterwards. But at one point, we just clicked.

I think her remorse is stronger than ever now because she sees a different person in me and a different person in herself. So she looks at me and wonders how she could ever hurt me. I sometimes question, if the right guy came along, said the right things etc. would it happen again. I honestly don't think so, i am obviously not going to say she would NEVER do it again, but i highly doubt it. There is a lot about her personality that i didn't like before, which is why our relationship was rocky and we were about to break up. She shed all those things over time. Her insecurity, her entitled thinking. After her fling I found out more about her in 2 weeks than I did in two years. 

I will to this day not understand why she wanted me back. We were not a good a couple, I admittedly stopped touching and became emotionally distant. This guy wanted her and reached out to her afterwards. I told her that nothing is standing in her way. Go ahead if he makes you happy. Over the years I realized i took her for granted a lot. She was bending over backwards to make me happy. Her complaints about who I was before the cheating were not foreign to my friend (the only person I told and who knows me since my youth). Difficult to please, extremely critical, emotionless. I've changed that.

But even after all that. The betrayal still hurts and I agree, she'll never understand that bombshell. but I don't agree about cheaters being shocked when it happens to them. To a certain degree, if you're willing to do it to someone else, you will always somewhat expect it to happen to you. A friend of mine, a cheater, had it happen to him. I asked him (this was a long time ago) whether he was shocked...he said yes and no. Shocked at the extent of it, but not at the fact that she was capable of it. IT was a 6 month LTA with a former roommate of his.


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

hoblob said:


> @BluesPower, it was a one week fling. I was told about and she immediately confessed. IT was the harshest blow i ever felt. Our relationship was not strong then, so it wasn't one of those i thought everything was perfect and boom. I knew it wasn't perfect, but it still killed. We grew from it. I had my own indiscretions afterwards. But at one point, we just clicked.
> 
> I think her remorse is stronger than ever now because she sees a different person in me and a different person in herself. So she looks at me and wonders how she could ever hurt me. I sometimes question, if the right guy came along, said the right things etc. would it happen again. I honestly don't think so, i am obviously not going to say she would NEVER do it again, but i highly doubt it. There is a lot about her personality that i didn't like before, which is why our relationship was rocky and we were about to break up. She shed all those things over time. Her insecurity, her entitled thinking. After her fling I found out more about her in 2 weeks than I did in two years.
> 
> ...


You know, a 1 week fling... That is pretty hard. A longer affair would be harder, but a week is like 6 months sex wise. 

I am going to make an exception in your case. I usually say end the relationship, even in a case like this. 

But, the way that you describe her, the way that she confessed, and the fact that your relationship has grown... I am going to say go ahead and get married. 

I would talk to her and say this. "I love you, you hurt me worse than I have ever been hurt before in my life. But I want to be with you. But understand this... from now until the day that I die, if there is one thing suspicious, on thing shady, one male friend that you hang out with, one anything, I am done forever. It does not matter if you cheat or not, it does not matter if you have sex or not... If I have a single suspect thought that you are doing anything inappropriate we are over forever. It you are ok with that then we are good." 

And I would tell her just like that. 

Then just live your life and be happy...


----------



## hoblob (Mar 28, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> You know, a 1 week fling... That is pretty hard. A longer affair would be harder, but a week is like 6 months sex wise.
> 
> I am going to make an exception in your case. I usually say end the relationship, even in a case like this.
> 
> ...


She wasn't with him for an entire week. She saw him sporadically (met, flirted, exchanged texts and slept with him twice). But she didn't confess, I found out and the the minute i confronted her, she admitted to sleeping with him. I can accept that I was a ****ty bf and that I stopped touching her and giving her compliments. I think i was just unhappy with myself back then, and I didn't see the pain that she was in that her boyfriend doesn't want to f her. Never thought it would damage someone that much to seek attention elsewhere. But I can understand that she thought i wasn't sexually interested in her anymore. 

I recognize that, but break up with me, don't rock my world like that. I recently asked her to recount all the details of the meetings, the texts etc. She was really hesitant, but I told that her that she can't have secrets with this person that I am not aware of even though it was 9 years ago. 
Anyway, then proceeded to tell her of the time i hooked up with someone soon after her fling. Held that in for 9 years, and it was good getting it out. Part of her was shocked that I am capable of this as well but happy that it wasn't recent. I think it would have hurt much more if I told her it happened last year or whatever.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

hoblob said:


> She wasn't with him for an entire week. She saw him sporadically (met, flirted, exchanged texts and slept with him twice). But she didn't confess, I found out and the the minute i confronted her, she admitted to sleeping with him. I can accept that I was a ****ty bf and that I stopped touching her and giving her compliments. I think i was just unhappy with myself back then, and I didn't see the pain that she was in that her boyfriend doesn't want to f her. Never thought it would damage someone that much to seek attention elsewhere. But I can understand that she thought i wasn't sexually interested in her anymore.
> 
> I recognize that, but break up with me, don't rock my world like that. I recently asked her to recount all the details of the meetings, the texts etc. She was really hesitant, but I told that her that she can't have secrets with this person that I am not aware of even though it was 9 years ago.
> Anyway, then proceeded to tell her of the time i hooked up with someone soon after her fling. Held that in for 9 years, and it was good getting it out. Part of her was shocked that I am capable of this as well but happy that it wasn't recent. I think it would have hurt much more if I told her it happened last year or whatever.


What has she done to fix herself? Has she read books, has she developed a better coping strategy? If not what happens if you get six for instance and are unable to touch her for a while?


----------



## hoblob (Mar 28, 2018)

sokillme said:


> What has she done to fix herself? Has she read books, has she developed a better coping strategy? If not what happens if you get six for instance and are unable to touch her for a while?


Books, therapy, and just more honesty. The first two years of our relationship we were both not too honest with each other about needs, wants, and just general stuff. We had walls and I think hers were higher. 
She really changed a lot since. I can see it, sense it, feel it. It wasn't just the sex, I didn't appreciate a lot of the stuff she did for me early on. I definitely took her for granted, not a doubt in my mind. She said things to me that my ex had told when she broke up with me (there was no cheating, just long distance). 

If i'm wrong, then I'm wrong. I'll hold my head up high and leave. We're not planning on having kids, so I am not going to feel bad. She also makes more money than me and has more assets...I told her, if she cheats...she's getting a bad deal in marrying me. But I think, since I told her about my hook up, her concerns is that i want to get revenge. Which I sort of felt at one point, but don't anymore, because I just don't want to hurt her. I don't want to inflict the same pain (it would be less) to her as she did to me.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

hoblob said:


> Books, therapy, and just more honesty. The first two years of our relationship we were both not too honest with each other about needs, wants, and just general stuff. We had walls and I think hers were higher.
> She really changed a lot since. I can see it, sense it, feel it. It wasn't just the sex, I didn't appreciate a lot of the stuff she did for me early on. I definitely took her for granted, not a doubt in my mind. She said things to me that my ex had told when she broke up with me (there was no cheating, just long distance).
> 
> If i'm wrong, then I'm wrong. I'll hold my head up high and leave. We're not planning on having kids, so I am not going to feel bad. She also makes more money than me and has more assets...I told her, if she cheats...she's getting a bad deal in marrying me. But I think, since I told her about my hook up, her concerns is that i want to get revenge. Which I sort of felt at one point, but don't anymore, because I just don't want to hurt her. I don't want to inflict the same pain (it would be less) to her as she did to me.


So yours sounds like the rare story where both people were bad in a relationship and the relationships itself was bad. In those cases the relationship can get better. I actually think it's good if both people are dysfunctional they stay together and work out their problems. 

Most of the time though it's usually one person who is really dysfunctional and the other who is just a normal spouse who gets blindsided. 

I still say she would have been better suited to tell you and brake up with you. But maybe she has learned her lesson.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

hoblob said:


> @BluesPower, it was a one week fling. I was told about and she immediately confessed. IT was the harshest blow i ever felt. Our relationship was not strong then, so it wasn't one of those i thought everything was perfect and boom. I knew it wasn't perfect, but it still killed. We grew from it.* I had my own indiscretions afterwards. But at one point, we just clicked.*
> 
> s.


You mean a revenge affair?


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

hoblob said:


> But even after all that. The betrayal still hurts and I agree, she'll never understand that bombshell. but I don't agree about cheaters being shocked when it happens to them. *To a certain degree, if you're willing to do it to someone else, you will always somewhat expect it* to happen to you. A friend of mine, a cheater, had it happen to him. I asked him (this was a long time ago) whether he was shocked...he said yes and no. Shocked at the extent of it, but not at the fact that she was capable of it. IT was a 6 month LTA with a former roommate of his.


What drives me nuts is a cheater who wont extend the same grace they are asking for fromtheir BS. Why anyone would reconcile with a spouse would would not forgive what that are asking to be forgiven of is beyond me. Those BSs who R with such a person seem foolish IMO.


----------



## hoblob (Mar 28, 2018)

sokillme said:


> I still say she would have been better suited to tell you and brake up with you. But maybe she has learned her lesson.


Why do you say that? Sounds a bit mean towards me. and yes, indiscretion was the revenge. It wasn't an A though.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

hoblob said:


> Why do you say that? Sounds a bit mean towards me. and yes, indiscretion was the revenge. It wasn't an A though.


What I am saying is the healthy adult thing to do when you are unhappy in a relationship is to talk about it and if things don't change leave. That doesn't come with the betrayal and humiliation that cheating does. So she would have been better to do that then cheat on you.


----------



## hoblob (Mar 28, 2018)

sokillme said:


> What I am saying is the healthy adult thing to do when you are unhappy in a relationship is to talk about it and if things don't change leave. That doesn't come with the betrayal and humiliation that cheating does. So she would have been better to do that then cheat on you.


Yes I know. Trust me, I know. She knows as well. Can't rewrite the past and it sucks. Its the humiliation aspect that kills the most.


----------

