# Is "nice guy syndrome" the same thing as codependency?



## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

I've often wondered if I fit the bill for codependency... I know I related to that particularly strongly as my marriage crumbled and of course any kind of research you look up online about these kind of problems automatically take you to the psychological personality disorder sites. At one point I had my W pegged as having histrionic personality disorder and myself with codependency disorder. Of course in reality I don't think its fair to call everything a "disorder" because it isn't necessarily so, but it does help to understand a little about the personalities.

Now I'm realizing that perhaps my W was doing some "histrionics" at the very end of the marriage, and I realize that I am the epitomy of "nice guy" syndrome, but I guess I don't really understand "codependency" and and wondering if it can go hand in hand with the nice guy thing?


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

"Nice guys" can and do certainly have codependency tendencies but I wouldn't say they're one in the same. If you read the NMMNG book, you'll understand why.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

I don't think so, Lon. Maybe they can overlap, but I think it is possible to be codependent without being a nice guy.

I tend to be more on the alpha scale of things. However, I had no idea of how a 'normal' family worked. When I married, the marriage was more important to me than me. I felt that my wife was my responsibility, and even though my needs were not being met in some areas, I was just trying to have a normal family. With depression, she just needed much more emotional support than she has been able to give. I think that because pushing back is in my nature, it created a pretty intense environment at times. Still, I felt ownership for the depression, blaming myself, which is part of the codepency side of the marriage. When I finally realized that my needs were not really part of the mix in our marriage, guilt made it impossible to divorce.

Many of the nice guy traits, however, were never an part of the recipe.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

hey man thanks for the comment, I am starting to believe that codependency probably leads to much more harmful self-destructive behaviors, but I can see how early on along that path it could be very similar to NG, and I think the treatment/recovery is almost the same process, requiring massive focus on the self with some outside help to promote a new way of thinking of things...

I'm reading NMMNG and will probably re-read it over and over as I make some big changes in my paradigm. Thanks for that link to the NMMNG forums too.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Lon,

Do you work in healthcare?


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Conrad said:


> Lon,
> 
> Do you work in healthcare?


ha, far from it. I have really poor grasp of medical terminology, never took biology in high school or university though always helped my GF's study for their classes by reading the flashcards  I do have a big personal interest in how the mind and body works though, and love learning about practical insights. Did I offend a professional, or do I just sound like I have some sort of clue about what I'm blabbering about?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Not at all.

You just asked if you were codependent and my experience indicates this is quite the norm with healthcare professionals. We have huge healer parts of our personalities and we gravitate towards those in distress.





Lon said:


> ha, far from it. I have really poor grasp of medical terminology, never took biology in high school or university though always helped my GF's study for their classes by reading the flashcards  I do have a big personal interest in how the mind and body works though, and love learning about practical insights. Did I offend a professional, or do I just sound like I have some sort of clue about what I'm blabbering about?


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

ah... as for gravitating to those in distress, that seems to be the norm for both niceguys as well as codependent personalities, which is kind of what got me thinking they may be the same thing.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

There’s a Nice Guy quiz at No More Mr. Nice Guy! - Take the No More Mr. Nice Guy! Self-Assessment. I got 19 “You have some nice guy tendencies”. If I’d scored 18 I would have been “You are near perfect or in denial.”. If I hadn’t have stopped my codependent traits by asserting my personal boundaries I would have got a higher score while at the same time I would still be with my stbxw.

One question is “I try to fix other people's problems”. I read that as “If I think another person has a character problem, I’ll try to fix it”. Which is in essence what a codependent does. Of course I could have interpreted the question wrong.

But I think we all have codependency in us, in that don’t we all wish our partner was different in some way or another? More sexual, more assertive or less assertive etc. Like at times we’re all a little bit paranoid, narcissistic, avoidant etc. etc.


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

I tend to collect needy people all the time. My therapist and I are working on that. I also meet others that only want to take and never give. 

My husband taught me how to enjoy receiving. He's a very kind man, but he does NOT indulge my sometimes bratty nonsense. If I am yelling at my husband, he calmly tells me to talk to him politely or not at all. I love it!

I was always told that as a woman, it is my job to take care of others, especially men. If I showed any healthy self interest, I was viewed as "rebellious" and "selfish."

Nice Guy Syndrome has many similarities to codependency. My father is such a Nice Guy, that my mother shows no respect for him whatsoever. He is content to let her be an awful shrew and then complain about it to others. Instead of standing up to my mother, he cheated. I think he is a weak and henpecked little boy.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Lon,

I think it may look similar, but I think the "nice guy" doesn't initially expect the distress, and then responds poorly to perceived distress.

The true co-dependents go in eyes open.



Lon said:


> ah... as for gravitating to those in distress, that seems to be the norm for both niceguys as well as codependent personalities, which is kind of what got me thinking they may be the same thing.


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## Bigrascal (Aug 12, 2011)

I'm dealing with some codependency tendencies and have done tons of reading on the subject (which doesn't mean I know anything). 

For me, I was way too invested in the success of the marriage and trying to help my W get to a healthy relationship. I was so focused on this that I was oblivious to the fact that my needs were not being met at all. 

The reason for doing it is seeking validation so that you feel good about your self, focusing on the "problem" so you don't have to think about other things. It's a type of savior, white knight, care giver behavior. The irony is that it's not really about the other person - you do it for selfish reasons. For me it was also fear of abandonment that was fueling my behavior.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Lon,
> 
> I think it may look similar, but I think the "nice guy" doesn't initially expect the distress, and then responds poorly to perceived distress.
> 
> The true co-dependents go in eyes open.


Well that’s not true in my case. There are some forms of abuse that only present themselves after years of being together, after there’s some “history”. Took me a decade or two and lastly a nervous breakdown to know that enough was enough and no matter what I did she’d “never ever change”. That’s when I learnt about boundaries, when I learnt to be INTOLERANT of my stbxw’s abuse and to no longer try and change her abusive ways. And I knew and finally understood just how abusive and “unchangeable” she was when she not only didn’t respect my boundaries but mocked and trashed them.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

I don't know if there's much more hurtful than mocking.

I've experienced it.

It was quite difficult to maintain control of myself under those circumstances.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Conrad said:


> I don't know if there's much more hurtful than mocking.
> 
> I've experienced it.
> 
> It was quite difficult to maintain control of myself under those circumstances.


Well I didn’t maintain control. No violence though, wasn’t go to change a habit of a lifetime. But the emotions at the time did enable me to do what had to be done and although looking back there were thousands of better ways to end a marriage I have never regretted it’s ending.

Plus I very much doubt I would have ever ended it if I was cool calm and collected at the time. Way too much love and desire there. I had to be in a great deal of pain, as it turned out unbearable pain and fear to finally end it.


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## Bigrascal (Aug 12, 2011)

AFEH said:


> Well I didn’t maintain control. No violence though, wasn’t go to change a habit of a lifetime. But the emotions at the time did enable me to do what had to be done and although looking back there were thousands of better ways to end a marriage I have never regretted it’s ending.
> 
> Plus I very much doubt I would have ever ended it if I was cool calm and collected at the time. Way too much love and desire there. I had to be in a great deal of pain, as it turned out unbearable pain and fear to finally end it.


Wow. That sounds horrible. I think I have it bad with a 2.5 year marriage where I was put down, made to feel stupid and criticized. If feel luck to be away from it and can't imagine enduring decades of that behavior.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I just took that test for my husband, he is out there weed wacking right now -I have a pretty good idea how he would answer - score ended up 26. ....
*You're definitely a NICE guy*. Heck there is no hope for him. 

But come on , seriously, some of those questions, like #1...." *I am likely to give to someone before I give to myself*". So we find fault in this -he is like this with family, NOT everyone else though. Not sure if this test was about EVERYONE or just family? He has ALWAYS been this way, he is just a hell of a guy/husband/dad , so yeah, I gave him the highest score there. He would tell anyone that geniunely makes him feel good. (in dealing with family anyway) Even I yell at him sometimes , he wants to save something for the kids, and there I am fighting with him to enjoy it, forget the kids, eat it, use it, whatever . So long as he is not seething about it, which he does NOT, then that part of the scoring is a little skewed in my opinion. 

I also gave him a 4 on "I tend to follow the rules and do it "right". That doesn't seem like such a crime either. (but this too ups your score of being a Nice Guy - like you got problems, so rule breaking is some how more desired. And I gave him another 4 on "difficulty asking for help". Accually it is more like he doesn't WANT to ask for help, not sure if it is a difficulty, he doesn't like to bother anyone and feels he can do things better himself, hates asking for directions too. He'll still avoid conflict like the plague if he can get away with it, just his nature. I won't let him though, I pull him right into it & hold him there. ha ha 

****** He just came in here & I read him these questions, and now he is really drowning in the mud, he upped his score some more ! 

He still answered #4 about being HURT if I was not sexually available but that does not apply any more. When I got to "*I seek approval" *-he is Mr Alpha here, he says "I could give a f*** , people are A-holes, except for my wife & kids." He has always had that attitude too, which I do kinda DIG. 

My scoring gave him a 26, he upped it to a 32, but I see it could be site worse , at least he is not a "poster child". 



> 1 = Never
> 2 = Occasionally
> 3 = Often
> 4 = Always
> ...


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Bigrascal said:


> Wow. That sounds horrible. I think I have it bad with a 2.5 year marriage where I was put down, made to feel stupid and criticized. If feel luck to be away from it and can't imagine enduring decades of that behavior.


It’s difficult at times to communicate these things without writing a book. There were some aspects to my wife’s behaviour that “cropped up” every once in a while. We could go a good ten years or so never seeing that behaviour. But then something would happen and up crops the behaviour. At those times I tried to teach my wife different ways of handling the same type of problems.

It’s called the Victim Triangle. My wife’s behaviour was that of a Victim and she’d Persecute me for some event that happened a long while back. I was a Rescuer (codependent) and tried to “change her”. It never worked so at last I put up boundaries and as is predicted in these things took on the role of Persecutor. Apparently this is one of the ways off of the Victim Triangle, it’s quite literally an ejection or rejection and it’s all “quite normal”. That’s why I say here to people who hold onto their resentment (the Victims) “Watch out, it will burn you in the end”. 

In the intervening years, well over 95% of the time we were together, I considered myself to be a very well blessed man and I still do. Never denied sex once. Fabulous home cooked meals all from fresh ingredients. Pies, roasts, Chinese, Indian, puddings and cakes to die for. It wasn’t until the later years that I ever did any housework. Never not a clean shirt, socks etc. in my wardrobe. Both our sons love their mother deeply. She never ever overspent on anything. Always a smile on her face and a welcome when I got home. Totally and utterly loved and adored by my family. I could go on, e.g. she worked full time from when our youngest was seven. But suffice to say I was always one to count my blessings and therefore I knew exactly what it was I was losing.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

SA,
Ha! My stbxw is the Archetypal Nice Woman!!! Doing it on behalf of my wife the score is 41.

There are very many reasons why I was with her for 42 years! Have you got it yet?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

AFEH said:


> SA,
> Ha! My stbxw is the Archetypal Nice Woman!!! Doing it on behalf of my wife the score is 41.
> 
> There are very many reasons why I was with her for 42 years! Have you got it yet?


 I think I got it -meaning she gave all the outward signs of a loving-even doting wife so she was EASY to live with & love but inside playing victim, seething with resentment from ages ago, like a silent kettle boiling, unforgivenss but buried, but this only cropped up once in a while, you mentioned it might be 10 yrs later and it sounded like she was PERFECT 10 yrs in a row. THAT is HUGE, so you didn't fight hardly at all??

I am wondering how atrocious she could have been in those cropping up periods to undue 10 yrs of near beauty & homemaking perfection with never rejecting your advances. These cropping spells, how long did they last? Do you feel your setting these Boundaries is what did her in, pushed HER over the edge?

Just asking, kinda baffles me to hear how beautiful you write about all these years, then the really cold stuff in the same post, it is very hard to understand. Yes, some things may require a book. I just can't imagine if she was this resentment filled, how she could have FAKED happiness all of those years at a time, doesn't compute to me. Was she EVER emotionally Vulnerable with you? It would be very hard to fake such things, it is something you feel strongly, it moves you. 


When I seen that test, I had to give it a try , I am a sucker for tests & analyzing. You, AFEH, usually put some good ones on here! I have enjoyed them, it was your personality tests that got me learning what my husbands Temperment was -which opened my eyes tremendously to why he IS the way he is -and that many of his traits are genuine, not necessarily flaws that needs twisting & changed to make him a better man. 

I was kinda *joking *about him STILL being a nice guy- when I posted , I have NO problems with him at all, I am not trying to change him, I accept him for what he is , how he is, and WE work together very well.... 

Where he has lack, I nicely fill in the gaps, where I have lack , he posseses what I don't, his strenghts are MY weaknesses, MY strengths are his weaknesses. Alone, we would not feel complete, or if pared with someone very similar to ourselves-it would be either too crazy or too uneventful , but togehter, we make a glorious whole. We both see each other in this light. 

For instance, his GIVING to the kids all the time and not taking for himself, or trying to be extra nice to me, when I feel he is being too UNSELFISH, I laugh at him & convince him how silly that is & will even argue with him to TAKE for himself - If he wants to fight with me about it, I'll take him on. We have fun with that. 

It doesn't matter how much he doesn't care for conflict, cause he is married TO ME, he will have it from time to time. And he sill loves me cause I fight fair. Once he is in it, he holds his ground & it always ends very wonderfully, so conflict can be a very sweet thing. It is not that he HATES it & runs like a dog with his tail in between his legs. His patience and tolerance level /bar is just higher than mine. I don't think that is a flaw, likely a blessing ! 

And I know he is not hiding, trying to stuff anything. He has said plenty of things in the past I may have NOT wanted to hear, he is not a YES man by any means. I may have to pull things out of him, asking questions, but so long as I do that, I get REAL answers, not suger coated charm to pacify me. That would ANGER me greatly , he knows it. Also I would FEEL it , can always tell if he is "down" just a hair. He is a very very happy man. 

I guess I don't feel just cause you get a "Nice Guy" score, it automatically means your manhood is in question, your marriage will suffer until you lower that score, ALOT of this depends on the wife, and her love & acceptance to where her husband is, and what he offers to the marraige. 


I took that test, I got a 17 score. I guess I am NOT a nice woman. Ha ha


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

SA, from the quiz and the negatives of Mrs Nice Woman

*I am likely to give to someone else before I give to myself.*
_Read “I made massive sacrifices for you, you owe me big time. Because of my sacrifices, I will never be grateful for what you have done for me.”._

*I try to fix other people's problems.*
_My wife never did that._

*I feel resentful or hurt when my partner is not sexually available.*
_That was never an issue._

*I hold back my feelings.*
_Read “I will get you back. I will get my revenge”. Read "You will never know what I am thinking and feeling.". Read "I cannot possibly admit that I have bad thoughts and feelings. I am far too nice for those types of things."._

*I seek approval.*
_Read “I will not take responsibility.”. Read Avoidance._

*I am uncomfortable when people express strong feelings.*
_Read I don’t want to know of any negative effects I have on you. If I don’t know them, I don’t do them. Read Denial._

*I feel frustrated with my sex life.*
_If she was she never told me._

*I feel like I give more than I get.*
_Read “I made great personal sacrifices for you. Therefore I will never show appreciation for what you’ve done for me.”._

*I try to follow the rules and "do it right".*
_Read Perfectionist. Pedantic. Slow. Methodical. No creativity. No risk taking._

*I avoid conflict.*
_Read “I store this stuff up to use against you at a later time.”._

*I tolerate things that feel bad to me.*
_Read “I am not brave enough and I lack courage to change my life. I will blame others for the things that go wrong.”._

*I have difficulty asking for help.*
_Read “I cannot possibly admit that I don’t know.”. Read “I don’t make mistakes.”._


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

WOW, those are some Heavy explanations (which I am sure some Nice guys might be able to identify with & see why it is so devestating & counter productive)..... pure Martrydom in many of them, and yes, terrible denial. Personally I can not FATHOM how she put on a happy smile with all of that going on, seriously, it makes no sense to me -she had to be CLAM faced all the time. Noone who lives & breathes like that is HAPPY inside. I could never fake something like that, I would be a monster & make everyone's life hell. Ha Ha 

If anyone can fake that and pull it off, I would find it amazing.


Surely this one bothered you ....."*Therefore I will never show appreciation for what you’ve done for me*"- see that right there is a sign of a happy person -who does that for another, who can say "thank you"..." I couldn't have done this without you"..."I need you"...." I appreciate you". 

FOR YEARS, you didn't have this ?? but yet you say this


> . Never denied sex once. Fabulous home cooked meals all from fresh ingredients. Pies, roasts, Chinese, Indian, puddings and cakes to die for. It wasn’t until the later years that I ever did any housework. Never not a clean shirt, socks etc. in my wardrobe. Both our sons love their mother deeply. She never ever overspent on anything. Always a smile on her face and a welcome when I got home. Totally and utterly loved and adored by my family. I could go on, e.g. she worked full time from when our youngest was seven. But suffice to say I was always one to count my blessings and therefore I knew exactly what it was I was losing.


Listen , I am not getting on you, but it sounds like you was overwhelmingly happy for most of these years, you said she welcomed you HOME every day WITH A SMILE. (that was APPRECIATION wasn't it?) Do you believe that was ALL Fake THEN, or have you , like her , rewritten history to some degree, and now cloud your memories to feel she was feeling all of that THEN, *when maybe she wasn't *? Sorry - these are just MY thoughts trying to make sense of the "Blessings" you write about admists all of THIS anger under the surface. 

I was thinking, maybe SHE had re-written history only towards the end, for whatever reason. I think of another poster on here - *Southbound*- his wife did a similar thing, he also felt they were SO HAPPY -pretty near their whole marraige , and from his words, I believe she was for much of it, but somewhere she did take a SILENT divide and things changed FOR HER and YES, she started to RE WRITE history as well ...she would pick on things they did in their past & throw them in his face, but as he recalls, at that time, she was HAPPY. He was totally blindsided by this. Then she wanted out. Divorce came within months. 

I think women DO this to JUSTIFY their inner sadness and pain they held back. (they shouldn' have held it in -even he would have rather her not done this --but at the same time, when he writes he complains about women who are loud , raise their voice and complain - so I bet she FEARED doing that -so she was stuck)...but did she really feel that way BACK THEN ...I doubt it. 

Even me, in moments of anger , I have thrown it in my husband's face he was never CREATIVE in the bedroom - which basically computes to "YOU could have been a better lover" (yes I know this sounds nasty! ) , but if I am really honest with myself (which I always am even if it makes me look bad) the reality is this..... I was ALWAYS happy back then with what we had & did (I might have been clueless & stupid about what it could have been) but that falls on ME , I didn't hang on to these things in my heart & try to convince myself I was never happy with our sex life. IF I dared go there, well where would we be now, I personally could never live with holding on to stuff like that. NO rewriting of history here. Regrets that we were both stupid yeah, but NOT blame on him. 

BUt yeah, I bet many DO this to justify wanting out. They can't be honest with themselves, cause if they were, they would see it falls on them, and they are not so perfect after all. 

In all seriousness, Are you absolutely sure she was so angry all of those years ???


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