# I think I my wife has Borderline Personality Disorder



## BradP

I posted on this board last year highlighting issues I was having with my wife and seeking input on how to move forward with a divorce. This is an update to those that remember me, as well as another request for input, feedback, etc.

As previously mentioned, I have been married to my wife for 14 years (my 1st and her 2nd marriage). We are both in our early 40's, educated, good jobs, etc. I have an 18 y/o step daughter (away in college), 11 y/o son and an 8 y/o daughter. Almost as soon as we got married, my wife became exceptionally jealous, repeatedly accusing me of affairs, freaking out when I went away on business, stated hurtful and hateful words, threw things in anger (including her wedding rings), slamming doors, etc. There was a lot of anger for relatively small disagreements -- the reaction was not consistent with the discussion/argument. It got to the point where I walked on eggshells, always watching what I said, what I read, where I went, etc. Just painful! Over the last two years the anger escalated; her rage turned into ridiculous accusations -- once she accused me of trying to stage her murder; accusing me of being a homosexual; one night exploded because I was snoring and threatened to call the police because I went to another room to get away from her screaming mouth. 

We talked several times through the years regarding her behavior, but never really got anywhere as the behavior would cease for a while and then come back. I mentioned counseling but it never happened. 

A month or so ago we had the "talk". It was time for a divorce. After that, things actually got better and her attitude has changed (just not sure how long it will last). But the damage is done, I am "checked out mentally", have no positive feelings for her and remain in the house for my kids. It is only a matter of time before our marriage ends, just not sure when. Recently, I came across some information regarding her "symptoms" (rage, paranoia, no gray space -- either happy or mad, no in between) AND found them to be symptoms of Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD), which is a serious mental illness. Now I am really worried mostly for my kids if a divorce and a joint custody agreement were agreed to. The specialist I read about stated that this is something that is hard to bring to the sick person's attention because it will escalate the issue and create more problems. Has anyone on this board been in my position? Going through this now?


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## This is me

How about suggesting some Counseling? 

If what you write is true, it is a mental illness. The thing about our society is that people give a pass to those who run from a partner with a mental illness but would condemn them if it was physical illness, like say breast cancer.

In the end it is an illness which needs to be treated.

Something to think about.


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## TheCrunch

I think you may have difficulty in getting your wife on board re counselling if she has BPD. I know someone like this and you can't do right by them. They will not see that they could possibly have made a mistake or over-reacted etc. Very frustrating and disheartening. 

On the otherhand, if your wife can admit that there is an issue with her, the link below suggests some self help techniques. Meanwhile, make sure you get some support for yourself with this.

DBT Coping Skills for Borderline Personality Disorder


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## Uptown

BradP said:


> Has anyone on this board been in my position?


Welcome back, Brad. Yes, I lived with my BPDer exW for 15 years -- until she had me arrested one day on a bogus charge and thrown into jail. Based on that experience -- 15 years of taking her to six different psychologists and several MCs -- I have some advice, assuming your suspicions are correct. 

*As an initial matter,* if you suspect your W has strong BPD traits, I recommend that you NOT tell her. If she is a BPDer, she almost certainly will project the accusation right back onto you, believing YOU to be the BPDer. Instead, simply encourage her to see a good psychologist (not a MC) and let the psych decide what to tell her.

*Second*, if you think you may stay with her a while, I suggest you get _Stop Walking on Eggshells_, the best-selling BPD book targeted to spouses like you. Or, if you really are decided to get a divorce instead, get _Splitting: Protecting Yourself when Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist_. That book is important because diviorcing a BPDer gets very nasty real quick. Both books, by the way, are written by the same author.
*
Third,* I suggest you start participating (or at least lurking) at BPDfamily.com -- the largest and most active BPD forum I've found that is devoted fully to the spouses and family members of BPDers. This issue is such an enormous problem that that website is growing by 20 new members every day. The result is that it offers eight separate message boards on various BPD issues. The ones that likely will be most helpful to you are the "Leaving" board and "Raising a Child when One Parent Has BPD" board.

*Fourth,* while you are at BPDfamily.com, I suggest you read the excellent articles in their resources section. They are written by professionals. My favorite is "Surviving a Breakup with Someone with BPD" at T9 Surviving a Break-up with Someone Suffering with Borderline Personality Disorder - Columbia University, New York.

*Fifth,* I suggest you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you are dealing with -- and how likely it is she may pass it (or another mental disorder) on to your children. As I've explained in many other threads, your best chance of getting a candid opinion regarding a possible BPD diagnosis is to NOT have the BPDer along. 

Therapists are loath to tell high functioning BPDers -- much less their spouses -- the name of the disorder. Hence, relying on your W's therapist for advice during the marriage would be as foolish as relying on her attorney during the divorce. It is important you see a psychologist who is ethically bound to protect YOUR interests, not hers.

*Sixth,* I suggest you read my description of what it was like to live with my BPDer exW for 15 years. It is posted in Maybe's thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. If that description rings a bell, I would be glad to discuss it with you and point you to good online resources.

*Finally,* please don't forget those of us here on this TAM forum. We want to keep trying to answer your questions and providing emotional support as long as you find our shared experiences helpful. Moreover, by sharing your own experiences here, you likely will be helping numerous other members and lurkers. Take care, Brad.


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## BradP

Thanks 'Uptown' and 'This Is Me'. Earlier in the relationship, I did try and ask for counseling. This is when I could not figure out why she was being so mean to me, accusing me of affairs, being mad and raging. She said no. I now know that I need counseling and will go soon. I also know that this will end in divorce because the scars caused over the years have not healed. I am tied to that woman because of my kids. Uptown, I have been doing my research and found the book "Splitting". I have ordered it and await its arrival. I am so ready to get my life back, have friends, have a companion that does not judge or is not overly critical and is pleasant to be around. Also, I am so worried about her passing this down to the kids. I am not worried about my son (he seems to have my traits), but see some of her traits in my 8 year old daughter. I do know that my wife's mom exhibits the same behaviors and is on her third marriage, so passing it down through generations seems to ring true.


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## Napsalot

Hey Brad,

Same thing exactly is happening with me, and I don't know what to do about it. I'll definitely look into BPD, as I think we'll be finished if I don't do something quick. Been together for 15 years, married for 3. Right after I was diagnosed with depression, her attitude dramatically changed. Yelling at me for the littlest things you can imagine, going ballistic if I do something she deems serious. It's constant accusations; I lost something of hers, I broke something, you did this, you did that. If I do something, I'll admit it, but all this is ridiculous. She calls me the nastiest names that, like you said, are way too mean for the little things that happen. 
She's a very light sleeper, and often goes to bed before me. So when I go to bed, I'm very quiet, don't turn on any lights, just kind of slip into bed and go to sleep. More than once she happened to wake up, and you would not believe the screaming, finger pointiing in my face, the names I was called. 
I too am at the point where I'm just walking on eggshells now, afraid if I do the slightest thing, like wash the dishes, she'll explode at me. I do alot of cooking, it's a hobby, and I'll be cooking her very nice meals alot. Ever know how it feels to spend your time and effort doing that and getting yelled at most of the time? Or for her to say 'Doesn't matter, I'd be happy with grilled cheese', basically negating all my efforts. I've about had it and am ready for 'the talk' myself, except she'd probably jump at the chance. 
Who would she have to yell at then?


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## synthetic

BradP and Napsalot,

You should both read my thread. It's in the private section so you need a minimum of 30 posts. You'll appreciate the journey and the valuable advice that Uptown and Conrad provide in that thread.

You both should definitely spend a lot of time at BPDfamily.com workshops as well. It's quite therapeutic.


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## Uptown

Napsalot said:


> I'll definitely look into BPD.... Right after I was diagnosed with depression, her attitude dramatically changed.


Naps, how far into your 15 year relationship did your depression diagnosis occur? I ask because, if you had a great relationship for 10 years and then a toxic relationship for the remaining five years, you are not describing a woman having BPD. Such a disorder is firmly entrenched by age 5 and the traits typically start showing strongly at puberty. Such traits are both strong and persistent. 

My BPDer exW, for example, would create a bad fight every two or three weeks, sometimes more often than that. The only time a BPDer's traits disappear entirely is during the courtship period (typically 3 to 6 months), at which time her infatuation over you holds her two great fears at bay.

I further note that every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all nine of the BPD traits, albeit at a low level if the person is emotionally healthy. These traits generally are an asset at low levels and they become a problem only when they are so strong and persistent that they severely distort one's perceptions of other peoples' intentions and motivations -- thereby undermining all close LTRs.

Moreover, those of us who are "nonBPDers" may occasionally get a flare up of strong BPD traits that is not permanent. This can occur, for example, when one experiences a flood of hormones -- as occurs for several years following puberty and for several months during or after pregnancy (or years later during menopause). This is why most therapists refuse to diagnose BPD until the client is at least 18. (Stated differently, many -- if not most -- of us behave like BPDers during our teen years.) Another cause of a sudden appearance of strong BPD traits is drug dependence. It also can be caused by a brain injury (but this is very rare).

For these reasons, it is important to know whether your W's BPD traits have been strong and persistent since puberty -- except for the infatuation period I mentioned. It also would help to know whether she was abused or abandoned in early childhood -- or was raised by an emotionally unavailable parent. And, of course, your best source of information would come from seeing a psychologist -- for a visit or two on your own -- to obtain a candid professional opinion.


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## Napsalot

Uptown said:


> Naps, how far into your 15 year relationship did your depression diagnosis occur? I ask because, if you had a great relationship for 10 years and then a toxic relationship for the remaining five years, you are not describing a woman having BPD. Such a disorder is firmly entrenched by age 5 and the traits typically start showing strongly at puberty. Such traits are both strong and persistent.
> 
> My BPDer exW, for example, would create a bad fight every two or three weeks, sometimes more often than that. The only time a BPDer's traits disappear entirely is during the courtship period (typically 3 to 6 months), at which time her infatuation over you holds her two great fears at bay.
> 
> I further note that every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all nine of the BPD traits
> 
> (Stated differently, many -- if not most -- of us behave like BPDers during our teen years.) Another cause of a sudden appearance of strong BPD traits is drug dependence. It also can be caused by a brain injury (but this is very rare).
> 
> For these reasons, it is important to know whether your W's BPD traits have been strong and persistent since puberty -- except for the infatuation period I mentioned. It also would help to know whether she was abused or abandoned in early childhood -- or was raised by an emotionally unavailable parent. And, of course, your best source of information would come from seeing a psychologist -- for a visit or two on your own -- to obtain a candid professional opinion.


Hey Uptown, in reponse to the above from your post: 

Probably only within the last few months is when it became very serious. I have noticed in the past that she snaps at me and gets very mean when she is nervous, something I usually let go cuz that's probably her way of dealing with it. But she can be quite hurtful in what she says, and that sticks with a person.

I haven't noticed the time difference, but the flashes of hurtful behavior have been a little disturbing, brutal in some cases. For example, in one instance before living together, I picked up some Thai food from our favorite place and took it to hers as a surprise dinner. During which, I got slightly distracted by something when she was talking, and she proceeded to throw her entire plate of food at me, covering me with a rather expensive meal. In no way did that even come close to a proper reaction to what I did, not even close to a normal human beings reaction to most anything! That caused a 3 month breakup on my part, and it's not the last time she's thrown meals at me, and (I can't emphasize this enough) for very little reason. Is that consistent with BPD? I don't know.

I haven't yet researched BPD to know enough about the traits, do you think it's even worth looking at? If it's not BPD, I'd rather focus on something that it might actually be. What the hell, I'll probably look at it anyway.

We are both 50, so any teen anything is long gone. She does have MS in which there are lesions in her brain, and they can appear at any time. Perhaps I should research more on MS and see if that could be a cause? I've researched alot to learn about the disease itself, but haven't noticed anything like that, but who knows, I wasn't looking for it so could have easily missed something.

I don't know about since puberty, only the last 15 years. She is an only child, but her parents are okay, very decent people. Her mother, however, does have a tendency to lash out at her dad without provocation, and I've been wondering about a connection there, since that has been increasingly more common from my wife directed at me. 

Since I am being treated for depression a psychiatrist, and a therapist especially are at my disposal, and I plan to bring this up as soon as I can. (my first therapist meeting is next week)

Thanks for your input, Uptown, I do appreciate it.


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## Uptown

Napsalot said:


> Probably only within the last few months is when it became very serious.


Naps, when you speak with your psychiatrist and therapist, I'm sure they will tell you BPD does not lie dormant for 15 years and then suddenly appear in the last few months. As I discussed above, we all occasionally exhibit all nine of the BPD traits and sometimes have flareups when under great stress. 

Moreover, there are several factors such as a hormone change or brain injury -- or perhaps even a brain lesion -- that can cause our BPD traits to suddenly flare up. Indeed, one of the listed symptoms for a brain lesion is _"changes in mood, personality, behavior, mental ability, and concentration."_ See Brain Lesions: Causes, Symptoms, Treatments. Best of luck with the doctor visits, Naps. I wish the very best for both of you.


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## Napsalot

Thanks Uptown, and good luck Brad.


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## BradP

Uptown,

Wow, how your comments ring true. My wife's BPD behavior began soon after I said "I do". Literally, within 90 days I was accused of having an afair with a co-worker. It hit fast and continued until we had what I call "The Talk" a few months ago. For now, her BPD behavior's have stopped since I told her I had had enough and if it continued, I was seeking a divorce. I know it is only a matter of time until the next blow up, as I see some of her old BPD behaviors creep into disagreements with me and the kids. Regarding history, I know her 1st marriage was very turbulent and involved her attacking another woman and pulling her out of the car into the road during a fight (I heard this story after marrying her). I just received the book "Splitting" and am reading it now.


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## SCondeck

You mentioned the food fights and the grilled cheese incident. So close to home! I made my wife a grilled cheese sandwhich one morning, even cut a few extra slices of cheese to give to her before the sandwhich was ready. When I brought the cheese to her, she flared up and screamed "I want the cheese on my fu**ing sandwhich!!! 

Yep.


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## Tobey69

Something to think about.


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## Dylon

Well... I think that it does not matter if your wife is true bpd or not, what matters is if you can keep your mental health in order, and the chances are that after 10 or so years with a bpder or close you have srious problems, without fixing your own problems your life with her or divorce with her is going to be really really difficult.... also no responsible mental health professional can say to you that your established family dynamics can be changed with certainty in the long term.. No safety net.. Only uncertainties, it is hell.. I am going through separation with bpder with two kids after 17 years together ... Older kid has these issues as well, unfortunetly i myself strongly enmeshed ......


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## Dylon

Btw ... If you can get away from your raging wife into a different room and find safety there.. I seriously doubt that it is a proper bpd case.. Real bpd will suck you and your soul out of any room or loft , even if you manage to escape in a car, which i doubt (shee,ll get to the keys first) then the real one will try to chase you...


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## argyle

...she may have BPD traits instead of actual BPD. In either case, you should plan for an eventful divorce. Please read 'Splitting' and protect yourself. You may expect at least one faked DV call and a _lot_ of drama. On the bright side, real BPDs usually testify poorly and are eventually advised to cave by their lawyers. Don't plan on successful mediation. A dated diary is a good idea, so are pictures, and acquiring a good lawyer and documentation in advance. BPDFamily has lots of useful advice. One useful practice regarding custody can be to do due diligence with marriage counseling and a child psychologist prior to initiating a divorce - as they can provide later evaluations. As can friends and neighbors if you are open about R/S problems - particularly in time-stamped communications like email.

The other portion is holding firm limits regarding significantly abusive behavior. This translates into ending abusive discussions - leaving physically if necessary. In particular, if she bruises you or your children, call the police. (A similar case took pictures the first time and discussed with neighbors and friends and the local police before calling on the second incident.) Be quite certain that if you do this, you have some sort of ?recording? and remain passive - as law enforcement is not at all even-handed in DV cases.

If she isn't bruising you or your children or attempting suicide, she may not qualify for a diagnosis and most judges will be inclined towards not worrying too much. There are a lot of mildly insane people in the world - and any issues can probably be dealt with less expeditiously.

For reference, I tend to think it isn't diagnosable BPD until she starts coming through the door (as in, making holes in the door), chasing you down the street with a bat, or repeatedly attempting suicide.

--Argyle


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## BradP

Thanks for all the comments and discussion. I feel like I my life is on cruise control. I know my wife's issues and desperately want to pursue a divorce, but fear the unknown, as well as the hurt my 2 kids will go through. I try to just ignore my wife's bad moods and hateful comments, but feel that makes it worse -- she feels like I am not focused on her and that also causes issues. As well, I am not the least bit interested in having sex with her. Her bad moods and temper are extremely unattractive and certainly get in the way even when she is in a good and loving mood. A couple weeks back I started getting bad stomach aches and indegestion -- a first for me. When I went to the doctor, he asked if I was under stress. I told him the truth, that some of the stress is work, but most of it from my wife. He told me that over time, I could end up with an ulser and other health problems. For now, I am on meds, which have stopped the stomach problems. I desperately want to get through the holidays before potentially pursuing a seperation. Just trying to hang on!


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## Uptown

Brad, thanks for giving us an update. I've been wondering how you were doing over the past three weeks. Did you find the _Splitting_ book and BPDfamily.com helpful?


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## Dylon

Brad, you are following exactly my steps with holidays, your emotions about sex and kids... It is a painful journey...in theory there is a shortcut, but in practise only few can follow the short road out of this agony... I just watched The Mechanic, which is a fairly recent 2011 thriller.... One divorcing a bpder should be a bit like the main character in this moview ... Forget your emotions make a plan and follow it.. Escape, forget about kids and sex for few months, just escape... I have escaped twice .. Still fighting my desire to go back again...


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## BradP

Uptown, the book Splitting is very helpful and enlightening. I am about half way through the book. The problem has been finding the time to read it in private. I have also been spending some time on BPDfamily.com. To be honest, I am about researched out. I think I now understand what is going on. Now, it is time for action. Regarding legal action, I will finish the book first and adequately prepare for any fights or other legal challenges.
Dylon, thanks for the response. It is hard for me to put the kids aside, at least mentally, as I figure this out. I am finding lately that by wife's mood swings and lashing out have been mostly focused on the kids. She gets so angry in what I call "normal challenges of parenting" like getting their school clothes ready (can't find a belt or a shoe) or picking up/cleaning their rooms. We all get frustrated at kids not following the rules, but yelling and cursing shouldn't be part of it.


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## Dylon

I tell you more specifically how it worked out in my case..
I decided to be normal and said to my wife that i want a divorce and going to move out, and proposed to take my share in normal routine which our kids follow.... First, it provoked the rage of unimaginable magnitude.. Fights, confiscation of my credit cards, car keys etc, i could not move around the house with her interrogations and cotrolling behaviour, then after 3-4 weeks of this life and another night long fight i managed to get hold of my jeans, short, wallet and car keys and drove out

Then i was stupid enough to go back near the house to take my kids to school, cinema etc.. Nearly every my appearance on the driveway resulted in fights and humiliation and kids witnessed all this.. Now this is constantly played against me.. I am still not divorced her again because i stupidly tryingnto sort things out through mediation. I am crashed mentally.... It might be possible in the end... But at enormous emotional and health costs.. Kids are under her total control..... At least i sleep in safety, though she tried to enter my apartment few times at night... And beleive me she is nice, educated, with high salary...

Reading all the bpd books was not much help to me.. They make staying in impossible and do not help when you are out either


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## synthetic

> Reading all the bpd books was not much help to me.. They make staying in impossible and do not help when you are out either


I find this quite true. The research material portrays a good picture of how life with a BPDer is, but science and law have no practical answers to the two possible decisions (staying or leaving). Both scenarios end up in self-destruction. There's no way to live a normal and healthy life after cohabitation and long term romance with a BPDer. 

One argument could be, a person who is normal and healthy would never co-found a long-term relationship with a BPDer. And it would probably be true.


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## Dylon

synthetic said:


> One argument could be, a person who is normal and healthy would never co-found a long-term relationship with a BPDer. And it would probably be true.


well .. I'd make one addition to this .. Everyone can go through difficult times... if you met one when you are low, she/he can fix you, they have this ability, and then you are trapped between her/his lows and highs.. no more you, no more your former normality -- the moral is if you are down stabilise yourself without a new woman, or make the relationship short... easy to say now


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## argyle

...while true...to some extent...many people go on to have 'normal' happy lives after a R/S with a BPD.
...in practice, it comes down to acceptance, guts, smarts, and boundaries.

...I actually don't recommend trying mediation or anything other than paying a lawyer with experience with high-conflict divorces...if you must...mediate after starting the divorce.

...acceptances...she's crazy and abusive. She's not going to change this voluntarily.
...guts...this is gonna be hard and hurt.
...smarts...don't trust an abusive, mentally ill person to do the right thing. And, keep in mind that DV enforcement is not fair at all. So, keep a recording device/camera on you. Hopefully you have financial records or have taken steps to get them.
...boundaries...basically...choose boundaries you can enforce and then enforce them.
...so...she won't be hitting you. Or, if she does, there'll be a police report. If she calls up screaming, you block the number and/or report her for harassment. Feel free to get a restraining order. And enforce it if she violates it. A little video camera can provide a pretty amusing backup if she's particularly persistent. And there'll be videotape of any public screaming fits. And your kids will go in for psychiatric evaluation in regards to custody. And you'll keep records.

...the idea being that, if she consistently harasses you...she goes to jail and they cut off her ability to contact you. 

...document anything relevant to custody - which is basically 'the good of the children'. So, screaming and attacking daddy in front of the kids is something you should track.

In the end, it is important to remember that being mentally ill is a disadvantage - and that, given non-disordered planning and execution - you are stronger and more powerful than her. So, don't fret too much - and don't show foolish mercy.

...and don't do this alone. Family, a therapist, someone...

I wish you well.

--Argyle
...and there are plenty of men who go on to date and/or marry lovely, perfectly sane women and live reasonably low-conflict marriages. You might try focusing on that future when times are hard.


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## LiamN

Having had personal experience with people with both BPD and Narcissistic Personality Disorder (which often seem to be closely related), I'm sorry to tell you that in simple and black and white terms I think you have two options:
1) stay in a life where you are not happy, not being true to yourself and living way below your potential, or
2) Leave and don't look back. This may initially be the more difficult choice. When dealing with a person with such mental illness you should NOT expect and degree of common sense, reasonableness or consideration for you. You should even expect that you might lose everything as sometimes they will stop at nothing to get back at you for leaving.
Protect yourself as much as you can but ultimately it's a choice: would you be willing to sacrifice everything else to save your soul?
If you do leave it will be hell for a while but one day you will wake up and realise you are finally starting to feel happy in your life and wonder why you ever accepted living with someone who was not sane and who did not meet your emotional needs on a deep level.
And THEN you'll find a wonderful woman and discover the joy of truly being loved by a woman.
All the best to you,
Liam


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## dark side king

OK.

I'm done trying to make this 20 year marriage work, and have done my co-dependence best to do so for the last 2 plus years. Some facts to clarify:

-she was sexually abused as a child, but I didn't find out until 19 years into marriage and that was after telling her I was separating/divorcing her. 
-she appears to have strong BPD traits and is high functioning. 
-she has been hiding her issues of abuse and is keeping up a public image with friends and family, while carefully creating wedges between me and other people among her family and our friends. 
-mismanagement of money has been happening for the last 3 months but nothing alarming to the point which is drastic yet. 
-no major issues towards our 3 kids (ages 8, 10, and 13) but I do see enmeshment attention beginning and some visible control tactics in play upon them. 

My question is if I either do legal separation or trial separation with efforts to R in 6 months, what should I be looking for in manipulation of the kids? 
What can I do to prevent it if I move out in January? Is there something I can do to prevent this burning fire between us from spreading onto the kids?
If I can discover a way to manage this situation to provide my kids some balance for the next 10 years with both their mother and I in the same house, would they better served? Or just bail and set up house as the safe haven as the single dad?


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## Uptown

BradP said:


> I desperately want to get through the holidays before potentially pursuing a seperation.


Brad, are you still visiting the TAM forum? If so, please give us an update if you have time. I would certainly like to know if you ever decided to pursue a divorce -- and how your two younger kids (of the three) are faring. Take care, Brad.


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