# Serial Liar + No Evidence + Now SO Nice = Confused



## I_Will_Survive (Oct 28, 2011)

So, I had no evidence on my serial-liar husband (at least that's what I thought and honestly still do) and couldn't think of a way to get any, but I took the advice of people in this forum, and just said "I want out." The fact is, we live in a "no-fault divorce" state and I don't actually need evidence to get a divorce, I just need to file. 

I actually went to his boss at work because I thought he's definitely screwing around on company-funded trips and on company-computers, spending extra company-money to have extra nights away from home. They looked into the computer thing and I was right at least about that (porn and cyber-sex), but there's no proof about the other; only that he wasn't going where he told me he was going. (And why lie?)

Of course immediately he denied. And called his mom to say, "you won't believe what [my wife] just did!" 

But I stuck to my guns and said, "I want a divorce, I don't need proof of infidelity."

But, as I have mentioned in other posts, we live in a community where divorce is still somewhat discouraged. My in-laws were all, "Your [my] daughter is dating someone and wants to marry him next summer [2012] -- her future in-laws will call off the wedding! How can you do this to her? At least wait until after the wedding!"

Now that's possibly true. Of course I would never want to stand in the way of my daughter's happiness. Even if it sounds crazy to me, what if I'm wrong, and they call off the wedding??

So I agreed I would wait until after summer 2012 to file for divorce, because once we file it's a matter of "public record" and they, my daughter's future in-laws, can find out.

I'm in no rush, really, that part doesn't matter to me. I suspect my in-laws are at least as much motivated by their own position in the community, but whatever.

The real problem is -- my husband. And not because we're stuck together for all this time, but because he's SO plausible and being SO (now) nice!

He'll tell me that conversations that I KNOW we had, things that when you add them all up are veritable proof of infidelity, he'll say "That never happened." Don't freaking tell me that, I remember the conversation like it was yesterday. But to the rest of the family, it's like, "Girl, you're crazy!"

And he's being SO nice - we have to live together for the next 10 months, and he's making a real effort lately to be as pleasant as possible, the husband I always wanted. Taking me out to dinner, etc. He's hinted at reconciliation. ie, after our daughter's wedding, we shouldn't rush into divorce but do a trial separation. (Hello. I'm waiting 10 months to file. How is that a "rush" exactly??)

I KNOW that he's not being 100% honest, not confessing to what he'd done, & you guys are all going to say, DON'T take him back. But I need support, please! I'm starting to feel like I AM crazy! How do I know??

Can someone really look you in the face and say "I never had an STD in my life!!" when you're 100% sure they had one at least 1 if not 3 times?

PS -- Literally: No question in my mind -- After my husband had a discharge from his penis & burning on urination, he went to the doctor and was treated with "2 zithromax." I remember the conversation distinctly. After that he's refused to have sex with me, claiming he didn't want to get me pregnant, but acted like I, and anything associated with my genitals, was repulsive to him. This was 1.5 years ago. (OK we had sex once. Not a good time.)

Turns out the only discharge that would be treated with 2 zithromax is chlamydia. Known to cause a discharge in most men, but zero symptoms in women. There's more, comments he's made since, but he denies all of it.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

Have you gotten yourself checked for a full panel of STDs?

And, if you plan to have sex with him in the future, make sure he does the same thing - tested for STDs.

As for his previous discharge and antibiotic use, his medical file at his doctor's office should have the info recorded. You can always get him to give you written consent (keep a photocopy for yourself) for you to have complete access to his medical records or to have a copy of his medical records.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

Do you know what "gaslighting" is? Obviously, im sure you have heard the term having been here in this forum. But, I would encourage you to do as much research as possible on this type of abuse. 

Your best defense against the long term psychological damage that gaslighting can cause is to understand what it is, and the signs of it happening. Nothing is worse than questioning your own sanity. It shakes the foundation of your reality and can slowly "break" a person. It's horribly cruel stuff. Goggle the term and read as much as you can.


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## I_Will_Survive (Oct 28, 2011)

I did get tested for a full panel of STD's (except HIV) and came out 100% clean. Actually, if I had chlamydia, then I'd have proof. But he had that discharge 1.5 years ago, and I've probably taken a full course of antibiotics 3 times since then.

I don't know if he's gaslighting to abuse me, he just will deny everything until proven otherwise. 

ie, You lied about where you went.
-No I didn't, I went where I said! (Looking me straight in the eye.)
-No, you said you were flying to city X, and there are no flights out of our town to that city at that time.
-Well, I went to another nearby city and drove over.

Not to make me nuts, but to look innocent until absolutely proven guilty. And without proof, HE'S hurt, HE wants comforting for MY betrayal!


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## desert-rose (Aug 16, 2011)

My WH still treats his exposed affairs like it's MY fault. So, I'm the bad guy for letting out all his secrets; in order to believe I'm the bad guy, he's making it seem like I am crazy. In the face of his own words and emails, he is still denying and gaslighting. I think he's hoping that he can convince me it's all in my head and I was wrong about everything so that he doesn't have to be accountable for any of it. He also wants his family to see him as innocent so he doesn't have to feel ashamed of this whole mess and he can keep doing whatever he wants. I think this is a shame. I'd forgive him if he was likely to change, but denying and gas-lighting indicate the unlikelihood of that. Lack of remorse is a sign that he will intend to keep doing this. You're not alone in being treated that way. Hang in there.

If you are sure that you want a divorce, then just file. Maybe you can talk to your daughter and her fiance and sort something out. If her future in laws are the kind of people who will punish her for something that has nothing to do with her, it might be good for her to know that now...right? Just my thoughts on the situation.


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## I_Will_Survive (Oct 28, 2011)

Dear Desert Rose:
(A) OMG - I think we're married to the same man! (Yeah, I'd insert a smiley here only it's not so funny.)

(B) I hear you about my daughter. But her soon-to-be-fiancee is financially dependent on his parents, and she will be too, for a few years while he's in graduate school. I've danced around the subject without telling her what was up with me & my husband, and she really believes it will get better after they are paying their own way. We're just all stuck for now.


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## I_Will_Survive (Oct 28, 2011)

Oh, and Aug -- that's a good idea about getting him to allow the doctor to tell me what's in his files. I was thinking about it all day. I just don't believe he'll take me to the same doctor that actually treated him. ("You see? I never had a discharge!")

Maybe I should say, I KNOW you had a discharge, I KNOW you had wart-like things on your penis, I KNOW you saw a doctor for all of the above, take me to that doctor. And then, no matter what that doctor says, agree that we would go for counseling afterwards.

If that doctor says "not STD" then I owe him a BIG apology. If he says, "yes STD" then my husband admits to his parents that he was lying and that I was right.

What do you think??


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

Doctors will usually do a lab test to support their diagnosis and prescription (and cover their butt).

Get a copy of the lab reports that were done. Get a copy of the doctor's notes. Ask the doctor to decode their notes. If you cant decode what the notes and lab report say, ask another medical person for help. Or, google.


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## I_Will_Survive (Oct 28, 2011)

So... you're saying, YES, ask him to go with me to the doctor, and get copies of the records. Or just give them permission to give me copies of the records.

I will ask him tomorrow. Normally I'd say he wouldn't do it; that was the question, how to make sure it's the same doctor that he saw for those things. (He has lots and lots of doctors. I don't know if I mentioned but he's also a hypochondriac. That's why this is all a little surprising. When it all came out, even his mom was like, "OK, sure, maybe online stuff, but he'd never physically do anything because he'd be too chicken!")

But if he will just admit he DID tell me he had the symptoms, and DID say later he'd gone to the doctor, then I could just insist that we see the doctor that he saw at the time. If that doctor doesn't have record of those visits/symptoms, I know it's another lie.

Question is, can he call ahead to that doctor and tell him to lie?


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

If he has so many doctors, it may be to your advantage to get a general release consent form notarized. This way you could go to different doctors with the consent form and ask them to release a copy of his file to you.

He could talk to the doctor. But will the doctor want to risk losing his/her hard-earned license by lying? Especially since you will get a copy of the file.

Are there drop-in STD clinics around your place where one can be anonymous? If so, he might have used that.


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## I_Will_Survive (Oct 28, 2011)

Hmmm. I'll have to think on this. :scratchhead: There's gotta be a way.

But I can't thank you enough for your advice!! :smthumbup:


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## I_Will_Survive (Oct 28, 2011)

Yeah, that was a total bust.

This morning I explained that I distinctly remember him going to the doctor for a discharge in spring 2010, I remember a whole conversation about him taking 2 zithromax for it, and would like to see the medical records. I said if the records showed no visit at that time, then I would know that he wasn't taking me to the right doctor, but if the records showed the visit, then even if they found an STD then I would be able to trust and move forward with counseling, etc.

He was at first, "no, this is another legal maneuver, my reg doctor will show no visit at all, I don't even remember this discharge or that conversation, a person needs privacy, blah blah blah." Then he said, "I'll think about it. But meanwhile let me tell you how YOU have violated MY trust by going to my boss behind my back!..."

But THEN, he said he happened to be going to his urologist in a few minutes anyway and I could come if I wanted. I went. 

And of course that doctor showed no culture of any kind whatsoever ever being done on him. I did see that he gets tested for chlamydia and other STD's regularly -- when the doctor left the room for a minute I was like, Why? And he explained he's a hypochondriac and he's done that ever since cancer 10 years ago. They always ask him why too, but that's just part of what he does.

Afterward he said, "Well now you've seen the records and we're never doing that again." I said, "No, I told you this morning that if I didn't see the record showing the visit that I KNOW we talked about, then I know it's not the right doctor." And he said, "Well I'm not writing an authorization, I'm not running around with you to every doctor I could have seen, there's just too many of them! You {meaning me} are just crazy and you're making this up in your own head." 

I said we could go to a counselor one time and get an impartial opinion whether or not this is an unreasonable demand from me, and how to proceed to rebuild trust, but he refused.

So, I need an opinion. Am I being unreasonable? He says his psychiatrist told him that she thinks I'm crazy -- he likes her, but I met her once and I thought the same thing about her, so I don't much care. But he figures any therapist we could see, it's a roll of the dice who that person will side with.

When we went to MC the first time, he picked someone he thought he could talk to and when we both had our turns he started to feel she started to take my side, and that's why he won't go back to her. 

There's just no way to get out of this "he said / she said" impasse. Meanwhile, I think I'm going to end up with no alimony and no income.


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## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

Lie detector test. 

What did his boss say about porn and his trips? Is he going to get fired? 

Ah, kick him out. Gaslighting is cruel. Abuse in my book.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## I_Will_Survive (Oct 28, 2011)

Thanks for the reply. So I'm not being unreasonable, right?

He's not going to get fired because his parents run the company. Just not the division where he works. Now the family is mad at me that I didn't come to them, that I went to this "outsider." I hear, but they wouldn't have listened to me, they would have only believed my husband.

From their point of view, it is _possible_ to believe his side of the story. Just because he lied about where he was going, doesn't mean he was sleeping with anyone when he got there. He says he lied because I'd been asking if I could go with him. It's a stretch, but if you WANT to believe it, it's possible.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

polygraph


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## I_Will_Survive (Oct 28, 2011)

So that's 2 votes for lie-detectors. 

I don't think he'll do it. My question is only; I start to question myself, and wonder, am I being unreasonable to ask for more proof? 

He definitely lied but no proof of A; and claims I'm neurotic. Of course, I'm only giving you my side, but in your opinion, am I? Could I be?

PS - Am thinking about VAR (though he will be SO pissed if he finds it!) -- have I tipped my hand too soon? He's already asking me if I'm still snooping, trying to make sure no more PIs, etc.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

I dont understand why you would not get alimony or income? Or, even equity in joint assets (like a house)? Is that what your lawyer says?

How about hiring a good PI?


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## I_Will_Survive (Oct 28, 2011)

Thank you for being here, Aug! 

(1) My husband himself does not earn a huge amount of money. Some, but his family is all trying to protect it now. We get a lot of support from his parents, but I can't go after them and they're using this limbo-time to protect their assets. Anyway, I want them to help support my kids, and you can't get blood out of a stone.

We share ownership of our house with them, so I'll get 1/4 of what's left after we sell & settle the debts. I don't want to spend that, that's my nest egg. I'm more worried about ongoing support. And I think he's going to try to hide his pension fund.

(2) Yeah, PI's are expensive. Anyway, after all that, I STILL don't know where he's been going, and he's stopped going now, has canceled his next trip.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Seriously a hypochondriac who gets tested for STDs ? That's a good one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lastradas (Oct 14, 2011)

Dear I Will Survive, 
the only advice I can give you is to RUN. RUN as fast and as far as you can!
He is not being nice because he cares but because he needs to cover his ass!!!!
He has lied repeatedly and still won't come clean! It doesn't matter that you don't have hard evidence. The fact that is not willing to provide evidence whatsoever to disprove you is evidence enough. Of course, it'd be different if he'd repeatedly proven his innocence and you keeo accusing but that doesn't seem to be the case.



> He'll tell me that conversations that I KNOW we had, things that when you add them all up are veritable proof of infidelity, he'll say "That never happened." Don't freaking tell me that, I remember the conversation like it was yesterday. But to the rest of the family, it's like, "Girl, you're crazy!"
> 
> I KNOW that he's not being 100% honest, not confessing to what he'd done, & you guys are all going to say, DON'T take him back. But I need support, please! I'm starting to feel like I AM crazy! How do I know??


As a previous poster described, this IS gaslighting. Maybe he is doing it to get out of things but does that really matter? Who in their right mind, who has an ounce of respect for the other person, does that?

My partner used to do this all the time. I eventually began to keep a journal (where I would write down things immediately after we discussed them, with quotes) and save all of our instant message conversations. Even then he would deny things, tell me that I am crazy and make me look incompetent in front of others. I started doubting myself and my perception and would become very confused. I didn't trust my notes anymore. I didn't even trust my IM transcripts anymore. I would look at them and doubt whether I had misinterpreted something and whether he's the one who got it right. And even to this day, I doubt myself and wonder whether I just minsunderstood everything.
He presented himself as very different to everybody else, even his family. I was the crazy one, the selfish one, the one who makes up things.

The fact that he doesn't want to give you that doctor's name (and seriously, how many urologists can he have possibly seen in the past 1.5 years?) is proof enough.
Don't waste your time and energy on him. I am anything but against trying to work things out but he is NOT interested in you, only in keeping his life comfortable the way it is right now. If you need to stay married for another 10 months, fine, but in God's name, forget about him.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

Maybe the best way is to be patient, wait for things to cool down. He'll get comfortable and start making mistakes.

In the meantime, here's an idea -- get some gadgets and wait.

Get a few voice activated recorder (VAR). Velcro one underneath his driver seat of his car. Hide some around the house where he may spend some time talking. 

Can you get some hidden cameras? For example, here. Sample camera here


Do google search for "spy store".


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## I_Will_Survive (Oct 28, 2011)

I love this forum. Thank you all. You give me strength.

Lastradas -- believe in yourself! Every conversation can be re-analyzed in 100 different ways, but you were there! (At least, that's what I keep telling myself!)

PS:


lastradas said:


> (and seriously, how many urologists can he have possibly seen in the past 1.5 years?)


You don't know my husband.


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## I_Will_Survive (Oct 28, 2011)

You know, I threw that last bit in as a joke, but I didn't mean to minimize your good point, lastradas. Fact is, a hypochondriac will definitely remember who treated him for a discharge, even if it was only a urinary tract infection a year and a half ago. The fact that he claims he doesn't remember is proof to me of a cover-up.


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## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

sorry I haven't gotten back to you sooner .are his parents honest people ? a lot of parents stick up for their children when they have cheated . but do you think they know what's going on ? have known . and because just like you with the way your community is there been covering for him . 

I know you want to gather evidence and I'd be right there with you . just try to keep your own boundaries and protect your mental health . I don't know what kind of hobbies do you have but try to give yourself some hours with the hobbies . and if you find yourself obsessing about this for the better part of the day maybe it's time to just get out . somebody said gaslight undermines a person's believe in their own perceptions . I find that the crew list of mental abuse . my husband did that to me wants and I quite honestly want to kill him . thank god he finally admitted that I was telling the truth . if he had not I can tell you this much I would be divorced right now . I will never again let somebody undermine my sense of self .

your community being what it is I suggest you find a lawyer outside of it . I miss you knew you do it the better you going to feel . I know that some parents pay their children poorly . and so the children don't hate them they often compensate in different ways so you may have a greater state in the company then you are aware of . that is t h a n not t h e n . my phone doesn't care much about grammar .

what I'm getting at is that you might want to look for hidden accounts I'm doing discovery you might want to ask to go over some of the record the business . my gut tells me that if he was going off on a ledge business trips but was not good day of known about this all along . 

are there any women who work with your husband closely enough to observe ? because if your husband is this gone that we all know in today another woman would notice . 

I suppose to send full of me but anyone gaslight really deserve to be taken down taken down hard . I am angry for you .

I wonder if you striking any of these so called business trips back to the family business business and I wonder if the family is writing of these alleged trips . you can see where I'm going with that . 

I don't know if my parents are more honest than other parents but when I wanted to divorce my ex husband they didn't get mad at him for the same to you done I got mad at me . I didn't really care . but I think its weird . maybe they yook for better or worse a little more seriously than I did . his family didn't want us to break up but understood . maybe children to do really bad things to the marriage and have parents to protect them I really representative of a family dynamic that involves deception .

on the other hand maybe he's trying to get back at them too. I've no idea . and it doesn't really make a difference . he is s*** that is just the truth . weird my phone blocks out s c u m . probly not a bad thing . just wait probly insitter probably ? Guess that's what I said the first time
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

some of that is untelligible look for hidden account look at their books . if he has charge those trips back to the company and the company has written them off there r I r s implications . attempting to go after their business might end up saving your assets in a deal . even if you don't plan to use it it would be worthwhile to gather that sort of information . this family is deceiving you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## I_Will_Survive (Oct 28, 2011)

ClipClop, I'm sorry I didn't respond to you sooner. Thank you for thinking about my situation, I appreciate your good advice to look into the accounts. 

I'm happy, too, that your husband finally admitted the truth. So you are still married? I don't think that will be the way my story ends, but it's nice to know it happens sometimes.

Thanks again for the moral support! :smthumbup:


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