# Did something happen two years ago?



## Rob Panache

Up front, this is long and probably way too detailed for anyone other than those who are suffering from insomnia! My apologies for that, however even if no one reads this, just writing it out served as some therapy for me. Also, as I read other posts I realize this is pretty tame, but still serious to me as I try to determine if my open and honest relationship is "real".

I have an amazing relationship with my new wife of close to 6 years now. This relationship is completely different for both of us compared to previous relationships and a previous marriage for both of us. From the beginning we have been determined to have complete honesty with each other regardless of the good, bad or ugly of a situation. She has shared difficult details of her past and shared things that have happened since we met that made me feel greatly confident of that openness and honesty; yet here I am!

I am trying to decide if something happened on a business trip that took place about 2 years ago. I had put the questions behind me until some photos turned up from a push of all our various device photos to the Amazon photo cloud service. It was enough to make me start digging and trying to determine if I am just letting my imagination get the best of me or if she is not quite as honest and open as I thought. I just want to make a determination one way or another, I just have this compelling need to know. I went back to old texts and pictures to try to piece this together.

My wife went on a business trip in California. We both travel for business and like to keep in touch via text during our travels. We also like to tease each other a bit about situations that normally occur during travel. Sophia is an extremely attractive and intelligent woman, and often gets hit on by men. She tells me when this happens, and we laugh about the situations. She is in a sales role for her company, and it is standard procedure for me to ask and receive a picture of how she is dressed for the day or dinner meetings she might have. At this meeting, she set up her company booth (working alone for the company at this conference) and was soon meeting with many physicians to talk about her product. During the first day of travel, setup and meetings she sent me several pictures of herself (she always looked very professional and very sexy at the same time), pictures of competitors products and booths, text discussions of who she was meeting and how they might be useful to her company, etc. There was a reception later the first day, she got back to her room at 1 AM and I did not receive any texts that I would normally get while she was out but wanting to stay connected to me. She does not drink much and is not a party type of person, she is quite serious by nature. 

The next day she met a highly rated physician and successful international businessman that was a perfect fit for her company product and perhaps even an advisory board role for them. He invited her to lunch to discuss further. After a 2-hour lunch, she was practically gushing to me regarding his credentials and was excited that she might be landing a very prominent candidate for the company. There was another reception that night at 6 PM, I received one text saying things were going very well and that she “was bonding”. She texted at 1 AM that she was heading back to her room and would call, it took quite some time for her to call though. She described the physician as a “wonderful soul”, and that he invited her to dinner the next night.

The next day the physician stopped by her booth and said he had made reservations for 6 PM. She was still gushing about his credentials on that day, and to be fair, he would make a great addition to the company. They went to a nice place for dinner, she did not send me any pictures of herself before going to dinner (as she normally would) and only sent a Trip Advisor link to the restaurant they were going to. I was getting curious about this new friend and asked for a picture if she could without it being awkward. She did not send any, however later I found a picture he sent her of the two of them at the restaurant standing side by side, her nestled into him with his arm around her. Dinner was around 9 PM, no texts or pictures, only a text at 12:20 AM saying she was heading back to hotel and would call me. If my memory serves me correctly, there was a long delay and she finally called at 1:30 AM saying he wanted to have another drink with her at the hotel. There was a goodnight kiss and hug, because the next day she referenced the one she received as bigger and longer than the night before.

I received a sexy Good Morning Avatar the next morning, told me she had plans to have coffee with him at 10:30 AM. The company was planning for her to go to another similar conference in Florida in a couple of weeks since she had so much success at this one. The physician was going to be at that one also since it was near his hometown. He was leaving town that day, and they met again for a two-hour lunch where they had a glass of wine (she rarely drinks wine during the day). When I teased her regarding if she received a goodbye kiss (humor was my way of trying to find out what was happening) she replied by text saying “yes, big hug and kisses”, and that he was excited about her coming to Florida. I pressed her about the extent of the kisses, she just said bigger and longer than the other ones. I asked if this was open lip, she replied “NO”, and then no longer wanted to discuss it and left to take a walk, effectively closing the discussion.

I pushed back on the trip to Florida and we had a big argument by phone and text. I told her I was concerned not that she had so many meeting with him, but that she was meeting with him exclusively and that the lunches and dinners were 4-hour ordeals. Also, I asked why I never received any pictures of how she dressed for each of these outings with him, feeling that she was hiding something. Somehow, my teasing was to blame, and that I should keep my focus on our relationship vs. trying to build one that did not exist with someone else. The decision was made that she would go to the 3-day Florida meeting.

Florida, Day 1. Physician stopped by her booth first day to ask her out for a drink. Reception started at 5:30, they had drinks and dinner together at restaurant, she was back in room at 10:30 PM.

Day 2. We had another argument that morning, not about physician but about something trivial but she would not let it drop. He asked her out to dinner that night, drove her to EPCOT to one of the nicer restaurants there. They decided to stay for the fireworks and walk around the park together. Once again, she did not send me any pictures of what she was wearing to go out, it was a fancy restaurant and she likes to dress up when going out. She told me what she wore, and I remember being surprise that she dressed down for a nice restaurant. She wore a long sleeve linen shirt over a cami. I remember thinking maybe I’m making too much of all of this, if she is dressing down then it might just be my imagination. Later, I found pictures that he took of her outside the restaurant. It was as she described, but something about the picture didn’t seem right. Then as I looked closer, I realized that it is obvious she was braless and the cami was actually a sheer open lace-back one that she owns that is very sexy. With the temps in Orlando being very warm then, I now believe that is how she dressed for dinner but put on the linen shirt as a jacket and buttoned it up for the picture. She did not tell me about the pictures, saying she never had any, but these came over automatically from her phone during the photo download. Also, there is a look on her face for these 3 photos that made me wonder. I sent the picture to a woman friend of mine who knows us both and asked her what she saw in the picture giving her no context. Her first reply was: “Wow, did you both just make love??”. 

Day 3. She was invited by him to a special physician only reception, she was dressed to kill (finally sent a picture). 5 PM reception, they walked to dinner at 7. There was live music, she had a martini (once or twice a year will she drink anything but wine). I asked if they danced, she said not really…only in a group. Later I found texts by him and her complimenting each other on their dancing, and him saying it is easy to look good dancing when you have Ginger Rogers in your arms. Plus, there was a two-hour gap in messages when the dancing would have taken place. She was back in her room at 11 PM. Somewhere in the evening she told him she was happily married, he said then needed to clone her so that he could have one for himself.

Day of departure, he texted to ask her to go to lunch before he left. She agreed, even though she knew this was really causing problems between us. After their lunch he drove home, but on the way, he recorded himself singing a love song to her in Spanish (his native language). He also sent other music clips to her of his favorite Spanish artists, pictures from world travels, etc. 

So, if this was anyone else, I would probably have no question. Having an affair would go against all of her principles and her character. We discussed this at length, with her ‘convincing’ me that nothing happened. That yes, he must have developed feelings for her, but it was all professional. She also said, the meetings were 85% business and 15% personal. My accounting shows they probably spent about 40 hrs together between the two conferences, so that does not ring true to me. 

Please, no abuse for how I handled this. I beat myself up plenty and do not need any help! I would like to hear if this is obvious or not to others who have read my account (once you wake up, of course).


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## bandit.45

She spent the week dating him and having sex with him repeatedly. A person would have to be braindead to believe her. Don't let her gaslight you. Tell her to be honest with you if she wants to save the marriage. Either she tells you all that happened or you see a lawyer this week.


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## marcy*

Maybe she is not cheating, but she allowed him for sure to flirt with her. Him dedicating her songs, is unacceptable. Makes you wonder what were they really discussing during those “ work meetings”


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## RandomDude

You are right to be suspicious, red flags everywhere but no solid proof and she may have likely covered her tracks if anything did happen.

Regardless of if it happened or not, she:


Conjured a fog over your otherwise transparent relationship. This means one or two things; she was doing something inappropriate, or she knew how you would react so decided to hide it from you. Either is no good, let alone both.
Continued to entertain the man's interest even though its blatantly obvious what he wants. That's a dealbreaker for me.
Showed no regard of your feelings in this manner and acted defensively when confronted.

Overall regardless of what actually happened, you need to put a foot down on boundaries and stand firm in what you can or can not tolerate.

I do not have meetings alone with women past office hours, I keep everything professional and my transparency is consistent. This is not good conduct marriage-aside.


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## Mr.Married

While there is no proof she was sleeping with him, I would say she was having a great time dating and being wowed by him. If she didn’t have sex with him I’m sure she was thinking about it.

For my marriage this would be way beyond my personal boundaries and my wife knows it. But that’s my marriage.... not yours


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## Yeswecan

Something odd about the entire business travel. However, my first thought was your W was using all of her business skills and assets to bring the Dr. onboard with her company. However, there was not much more than dinner, drinks, dancing and some innuendo perhaps. Further, how much communication has there been with this Dr. since this trip two years ago? If none, I would say there is not much more to the story. Dr. was interested in more than dinner. Your W was interested in her company by getting the Dr. onboard. Perhaps your W noticed this is all the Dr. wanted. No interest in coming onboard at all. This may be something your W needs to explain.


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## michzz

I've had a to travel for business before. Companies i worked for had rules of behavior that spelled out that such fraternizing could damage the reputation of the company.

If she wasn't doing the guy she sure was as close to that as you can get.

Slap and tickle is not the way to conduct business. And it certainly is hugely disrespectful of her marriage to you.

If I were you? I'd get tested for STDs and consult with a divorce attorney.

Your wife is lying to you about her affair.


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## OnTheFly

The ''just ****ed'' look is unmistakeable.

Business trips and conferences are barnyards.


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## Andy1001

I’m going to be very blunt here. 
Your wife sounds like the type of salesperson who would mortgage her soul for a sale. I’ve met women like this and nothing is off limits when it comes to selling. She was basically prostituiting herself with the doctor and probably many more besides. 
You say you would joke about men hitting on her, do you find it funny now?
And what about her hitting on men? She has her ass in the store window and she’s had plenty of enquirers.


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## BluesPower

Please guys, we know what happened during the trip. His wife had a BF for a week and she banged him the first night she met him. 

Please. 

Make her take a poly. OP, Why did you sweep this under the rug????


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## Lostinthought61

let me ask you rob would she be willing to take a polygraph to prove nothing happen?


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## G.J.

Sorry but that's not a professional married women

If my wife who WAS a CEO for a large company had conducted herself as you described her bags would have been packed and waiting outside for her return

Only way forward to attempt to uncover is either polygraph or large friends that would ask the gentleman questions


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## Rob_1

You didn't have the balls to do anything two years ago. Why bother now? you now have an inside view of what your wife is capable of in order to make a sale: it is called prostitution.


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## MattMatt

El Cid thought he was going to get some, but it's possible your wife held back. 

But what she was doing was very shady, very unprofessional and it reflects badly on her.


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## MattMatt

Rob_1 said:


> You didn't have the balls to do anything two years ago. Why bother now? you now have an inside view of what your wife is capable of in order to make a sale: it is called prostitution.


Re-read his post. The reason why is within it.


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## Andy1001

MattMatt said:


> El Cid thought he was going to get some, but it's possible your wife held back.
> 
> But what she was doing was very shady, very unprofessional and it reflects badly on her.


Matt I would respectfully adjust your post slightly. 
El Cid *new *he was going to get some, and he did. The handsome, charismatic doctor and international businessman reminds me of myself and some of my colleagues from years ago. I wouldn’t have came back the second day if I didn’t get what I wanted the first day. 
And neither did he.
In big business hot, sexy saleswomen are ten a penny. That’s why they get the jobs in the first place. Then they use everything in their power to clinch the deal. 
And I mean everything.


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## EleGirl

*@Rob Panache,*

I this is your real name, I suggest you use a user name that does not identify you. It's really best to remain anonymous on this site. Let me know what you'd like your user name changed to and I'll take care of that.

Also, if your wife's name is Sophia, I suggest you edit your post and remove her name.


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## ah_sorandy

I've been on many business trips over my 37 year career!

I've had ladies that were all over me trying to 'make' the sale. When push came to shove, and I called their bluff, nearly 100% of them backed off and claimed their marriages were important to them.

The one married woman that actually showed up at my hotel room door was let down gently and sent on her way.

It is very possible that your wife remained faithful on her sales trips. However, with the amount of personal time spent with this Doctor, including alcohol, fancy restaurants, and especially schmoozing, I'd say there is also a high chance he had his way with her!

Ask her to take a polygraph. If she refuses, you have your answer. If she fails it, you have your answer. If she passes it, you have the best wife going!

JMHO.


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## Thumos

bandit.45 said:


> She spent the week dating him and having sex with him repeatedly. A person would have to be braindead to believe her. Don't let her gaslight you. Tell her to be honest with you if she wants to save the marriage. Either she tells you all that happened or you see a lawyer this week.


Agreed. Sorry. Move quickly. Also demand she hand over her phone for retrieval of deleted information. And put a VAR in her car immediately.

As others have said, a poly may be in order but you may want to gather a little more information and intel first. 

If she won’t immediately hand over her phone for retrieval of deleted information by forensic software, and balks and says things like her phone is private, then you know you’ve got a severe problem on your hands. I speak from experience.


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## Thumos

Rob Panache said:


> I found a picture he sent her of the two of them at the restaurant standing side by side, her nestled into him with his arm around her.


Big long kisses and nestling into the arms of another man? Married women who are not adulterers don’t do this. Sorry. That picture alone should be enough to tell you the truth.


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## sokillme

She is not a great as she seems or the person you thinks she is.


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## Thumos

sokillme said:


> She is not a great as she seems or the person you thinks she is.


True dat. There are lot of elements of pedestalizing in your OP.


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## Kamstel2

She will simply deny, deny, and deny some more.

you have two choices...
1) polygraph
2) contact the good Dr. and give it your best bluff. Tell him that you and your wife are trying to repair your damaged marriage. In her effort to to save it, she has told you everything that happened at the conference. You are just looking to hear from him to make sure your stories are the same. Ask him not to contact your wife before he tells you what happened.

if your wife comes home pissed, you know he contacted he first

I think the polygraph is better path to take

Good luck and stay strong!
Don’t allow yourself to be gaslighted!!!


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## Kamstel2

I think you already know the answer.


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## Rob Panache

EleGirl said:


> *@Rob Panache,*
> 
> I this is your real name, I suggest you use a user name that does not identify you. It's really best to remain anonymous on this site. Let me know what you'd like your user name changed to and I'll take care of that.
> 
> Also, if your wife's name is Sophia, I suggest you edit your post and remove her name.


Neither name is real. Thank you, though, for double checking. I'm just now going through all the comments and considering.


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## Thumos

By the way, two years is not a long time. It’s the blink of an eye in infidelity-land. Anyone who has been betrayed knows what I’m talking about.

And it must be ever present for you, else why are you here asking? It’s been gnawing at you relentlessly for two years. Probably comes to mind at least once a day or several times a week, am I right? You‘ve never been able to look at her the same way again.


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## Rob Panache

Yeswecan said:


> Something odd about the entire business travel. However, my first thought was your W was using all of her business skills and assets to bring the Dr. onboard with her company. However, there was not much more than dinner, drinks, dancing and some innuendo perhaps. Further, how much communication has there been with this Dr. since this trip two years ago? If none, I would say there is not much more to the story. Dr. was interested in more than dinner. Your W was interested in her company by getting the Dr. onboard. Perhaps your W noticed this is all the Dr. wanted. No interest in coming onboard at all. This may be something your W needs to explain.


Her business was a startup business, so "sales" was more about gaining interest in the business and product, document that interest to help bring on investors. There was no product at that point to sale, so not really a typical professional sales role like a pharma sales rep, etc. There was continued text dialog and a few phone conversations after the conferences. There was interest from both her business and him to join the board of directors of the business, however, like many startups, they ran into issues and the talks stalled out while internal business challenges were dealt with. Not sure this really changes opinions, but just clarifying the situation.


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## Rob Panache

Thumos said:


> By the way, two years is not a long time. It’s the blink of an eye in infidelity-land. Anyone who has been betrayed knows what I’m talking about.
> 
> And it must be ever present for you, else why are you here asking? It’s been gnawing at you relentlessly for two years. Probably comes to mind at least once a day or several times a week, am I right? You‘ve never been able to look at her the same way again.


The relationship has changed over the past couple of years, but we have faced quite a few financial challenges over that time also, on both her side and my side of business. Believe it or not, I sort of forgot about it while we worked hard together to overcome these challenges. Finding the pictures I mentioned sort of brought it all back up to me, and then thinking about how different our relationship is now vs. before then made me wonder again about it...enough to dig back into the text messages and capture a time line, which I never did before. Looking at the time line, and sequence of events, was sobering to say the least.


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## skerzoid

While the cat's away, the mice will play. You better bell your cat.


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## aine

@Rob Panache , don't have much to add, and it is not entirely clear she slept with him though she has definitely crossed boundaries. What is your gut telling you? 
You could confront her with the evidence you have and see if she falls on her sword and tells you the truth. The not knowing and the lies will erode all trust in the marriage and eventually you will probably walk.


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## sokillme

Thumos said:


> By the way, two years is not a long time. It’s the blink of an eye in infidelity-land. Anyone who has been betrayed knows what I’m talking about.
> 
> And it must be ever present for you, else why are you here asking? It’s been gnawing at you relentlessly for two years. Probably comes to mind at least once a day or several times a week, am I right? You‘ve never been able to look at her the same way again.


A third of their marriage. OP one of you is not as honest as you think.


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## Mr.Married

I’m not saying she cheated (maybe she did) but it’s going to eat you up until you get some closure. It’s up to you to decide how hard to chase this. You have already proven you have loose boundaries in marriage so you can decide to do nothing or drop a bomb.
It’s up to you to decide what closure is.
I would drop a bomb .... but then again I wouldn’t be in this situation


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## sokillme

Honestly dude who knows what happened. All I know is your wife has some ****ty boundaries and that kind of person sucks to be married to. Honesty or not.

My advice to you is if you are going to stay married to her stop caring so much, she doesn't. That is about the only way you can be married to people like this.

How much do you know about her last marriage. I bet not all of it.


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## ABHale

Did your wife do things differently with this person?

Did she normally go without a bra? Some women do this.

Was she actually kissing the guy?!?!?!

What are the changes in your relationship?

Sorry but the length of the dinners are what get me. Business dinners are needed in the world we live in. The length and the night cap with just the two of them is the blaring red flag. With what you have told us, I actually believe something was up. She dressed easy access and sexy. She played his trophy at the all physician only reception. Then there is the lack of Status quo, she stopped communicating with you. Then she lied about photos being taken.

I would have the photos of them blown up and put in a folder. On the front of the folder write “WTF” in bold letters. Her face would be priceless. She will never admit to anything you don’t know. You know she lied her ass off about what went on their dates. That is actually what they were.


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## Oldtimer

In answer to your question, yes.


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## Rob Panache

Changes in the relationship, the connection seems less to me, she often sleeps in a back bedroom instead of with me. She says it is because she is a light sleeper and doesn't want me waking her up or her waking me up if she can't sleep, but this was not a problem at the beginning of our relationship. She sometimes goes without a bra with the right outfit when we go out, but dressing for me in those cases. She never flirts or even looks at other men when when we are out together. Were the kisses real? Not sure, hard to believe something termed bigger and longer would still be innocent and closed lip. He was obviously after her and wouldn't be put off that easily, if a woman allows a kiss more than once then a typical man will take advantage of it. I agree, he was showing her off as a trophy to his doctor friends and the length of time of each lunch and dinner outing was a big red flag to me. These were not group dinners, but all one on one dinners (with the exception of the receptions). I appreciate all the feedback. Any females on the forum that would give their opinion? They might see things in a different light (maybe females have already weighed in and I just missed the distinction).


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## Thumos

Rob Panache said:


> Not sure, hard to believe something termed bigger and longer would still be innocent and closed lip


They weren’t innocent. Once the deep kissing barrier is breached, it’s physical. Deep kissing is a highly intimate act and PIV sex is right around the corner from there. Brother, I am sorry to say all of this. Adults don’t futz around like teenagers. They have sex. They went on several dates over several nights and had sex. That’s an affair.


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## colingrant

What stands out to me even more so than the flirtatious banter with the doc, was her willingness to fearlessly provide you with a ongoing exchange of mutual attraction and the the electric vibe between them. It was as if you were her girlfriend/coworker, than husband. 

I've read of some husbands who get excited while their wives are in the process of being with another man. You asking and her describing the kiss led me to rethink, what am I reading here? Is this role playing or is it real, as this question and answer is far removed from a business meeting to a romantic/sexual meeting.


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## sokillme

Rob Panache said:


> Changes in the relationship, the connection seems less to me, she often sleeps in a back bedroom instead of with me. She says it is because she is a light sleeper and doesn't want me waking her up or her waking me up if she can't sleep, but this was not a problem at the beginning of our relationship. She sometimes goes without a bra with the right outfit when we go out, but dressing for me in those cases. She never flirts or even looks at other men when when we are out together. Were the kisses real? Not sure, hard to believe something termed bigger and longer would still be innocent and closed lip. He was obviously after her and wouldn't be put off that easily, if a woman allows a kiss more than once then a typical man will take advantage of it. I agree, he was showing her off as a trophy to his doctor friends and the length of time of each lunch and dinner outing was a big red flag to me. These were not group dinners, but all one on one dinners (with the exception of the receptions). I appreciate all the feedback. Any females on the forum that would give their opinion? They might see things in a different light (maybe females have already weighed in and I just missed the distinction).


So it's possible she had an affair at the very least she disrespected your marriage, she doesn't sleep with you now. Maybe this post is really about regretting wasting your time with her. I know I would. Seriously people like her are a trap. The thing that guys like you never see is that with people like your wife you want to be the Doctor in this story not the husband. The Doctor knows exactly who she is. You have no idea.

He gets to be the shiny thing at the end of the stick that she plays with until she gets bored and moves on to the next shiny thing. You get to feed and clean her litter.


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## Buffer

How come non of the sales people dress like that or give me good bye kisses and hugs?
Sorry brither, she was sleeping with him.
Ond day at a time
Buffer


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## manfromlamancha

Is your wife a normally flirty person? Is "nestling" into someone normal for her when she takes photographs with friends etc ? Or (in your opinion) does she do it with someone she is either attracted to or very close with or really likes ? And what's with the longer and deeper kisses and hugs ?? Is this normal for her? You seem to be taking this in your stride ?

I am very, very familiar with the testing out of an idea and seeking support and sponsorship from target customer market professionals and seniors in order to get investors for the business on board. It sounds like the POS is somebody important in that industry, and like many (particularly in the medical industry) abuses his position. Particularly if his origins are in what I would call a 3rd world country. Using and abusing his position would stroke his ego and these people are natural narcissists. 

So I think I have a clear picture of what he is like. And I agree he would definitely have gone after your wife and it sounds like he did. Every action she took to stroke his ego would have encouraged him on - starting with commanding her time there, then having alone time with her, then impressing her with who he is, then having intimate time with her, then touching, then cuddling and kissing etc. The natural conclusion to this would be to bed her but remember his narcissism would put his career and importance above sex, so that if there was any chance it could affect his career he would not do it. Also if he did do it, exposing him would cause him to defend vigorously and almost certainly counter attack. The point I am making here is that is where you should hurt him if in fact he did something (and what he had done was already bad enough). He would also throw your wife under the bus completely if cornered.

Now on to your wife. I asked what kind of person she is. Many here are likening her to a medical sales rep and a junior one at that. I have seen surgeons destroy such reps in two ways - either by turning them into sluts which does not do their personal reputation any good OR by taking revenge on them in the industry if they did not "put out". The really good sales reps have the backing of the companies they work for if the companies are reputable. It sounds like your wife is flirty and will go quite the distance to get what she wants (maybe not all the way, only a poly will tell). Also she sounds junior in that she is easily impressed bordering on infatuation with the likes of a self-important overbearing blowhard like he seems to be. You need to give us a better insight into her.

Does she lie to you ? Often ? To get what she wants or a point across ? If so you cannot trust anything she says. Is her career more important to her than her marriage ? The last couple of years could have been her trying to ensure that you both do not go down the drain financially hence the working together to stop this with you. That does not make her a moralistic person - simply one that knowswhat she can get away with and when. Of course she is not going to jeopardize her position by flirting with every man that comes her way.

What do you think of her personality and priorities ?


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## Rob Panache

Nice analysis, thanks. Does she lie to me? Never in big things (or at least I believed that was the case), but in small things that are unimportant I will find that she changes 'the story' often to show that she did not make a mistake. It is an odd quirk that I'm now wondering more about. For example, she may something where she clearly made a mistake, like the name of an actor in a film, when corrected she will immediately say I know, that's who I said, or that's who I meant vs. admitting she was just wrong. It is very rare for her to ever admit she was wrong about something, happens enough where it is an irritation to me (and others have noticed it also). I chalked it up to more of a personality quirk. 

Her personality and priorities are very altruistic, her faith is very important to her and is very genuine. She is consistent in putting time, energy and money (even when in short supply) in play to help others. She is well liked and admired by virtually everyone who meets her. There was abuse in her life when she was young, and I wondered at times if that triggered a Jekyll and Hyde personality. She is normally very conservative, but then at times can be just the opposite, much braver in public than I would ever imagine or ever could be myself (I'm not talking sexual here, but for example, speaking up in a crowd about something that is very unpopular but she feels passionately about, or trying a new dance in front of a crowd seemingly completely uninhibited). These are probably not the best examples, need my coffee to kick in! She has had marriage proposals from very wealthy men whom she just met (a few years back), how does that happen? One other incident, on a business trip we were talking on the phone in the evening before turning in. She told me she was going to walk down to the lobby to get a hot tea before bed, I didn't hear back for about an hour. A man who watched her walk by on her way told her to sit with him when she came back. She did, and for the next hour he tried to convince her to go back to his room. When she called, I asked why in the world did you even sit down? Her answer, it was the way he told me to that she didn't feel she could refuse. I know women can be attracted to authority and power, is that a trigger here?


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## Thumos

Sounds like she has terrible boundaries and you’re headed for heartbreak. I doubt very much something DIDNT happen with the good doctor. Your gut is gnawing at you. Did you know your gut has a lot of neurons? Not as many as the brain but a lot.

she got a marriage proposal from another man while you're married?That doesn’t happen out of the blue. She just disappeared for an hour and hung out with a strange man? You didn’t find that suspicious or wrong at the time? Breaking news: that was wrong!


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## Rob Panache

Thumos said:


> Sounds like she has terrible boundaries and you’re headed for heartbreak. I doubt very much something DIDNT happen with the good doctor. Your gut is gnawing at you. Did you know your gut has a lot of neurons? Not as many as the brain but a lot.
> 
> she got a marriage proposal from another man while you're married?That doesn’t happen out of the blue. She just disappeared for an hour and hung out with a strange man? You didn’t find that suspicious or wrong at the time? Breaking news: that was wrong!


To be clear, the marriage proposal came before we were married, but shortly after we started dating. She gave a speech at a conference, was approached by the very successful gentleman (only state that because it seems to be a trend), they chatted (he knew about her from common acquaintance but first time they ever met), he proposed marriage telling her that she could have whatever lifestyle she wanted with him, they kissed, she turned him down, he wanted to stay in touch and I said not possible if we are going to date and get serious so she ended all communication. I've always wondered how someone (successful and prominent, not a crazy man) would offer marriage on one fairly innocent meeting, was there more here than I was told at the time?


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## Divinely Favored

I would copy the photos and delete them from her phone and see if she gets upset. If she does she is still looking at them and remembering her time with him. The fact she was being deceptive and hiding things while with him say volumes to me. I seriously wonder if she could pass a poly from what you describe happens on these byainess trips.


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## manwithnoname

Deep long kisses, hugs, nestling, not wearing a bra. Not something a married woman should do with anyone other than her husband. She sat down and talked with a total stranger for an hour, just because she couldn't turn him down? Think about that, and then think whether she would turn down the doctor with all the facts you have? They had sex, and a lot of it.


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## Thumos

Rob Panache said:


> was there more here than I was told at the time?


Yes.

this should have been red flag for you to run far away but you plowed ahead with marriage.

people don’t just propose out of the blue - come on, now.

like most women (even those less attractive than your wife) she is surrounded by the prospect of sex and potential suitors. Sex for women is like the air we breathe, like a constantly flowing spigot they can access any time (at least until the onset of menopause and the invisibility years). Women are the gatekeepers of sex; men hold the keys of commitment.

The problem is once commitment is handed over it loses its power; by contrast being the gatekeeper is a full time job.

They are approached by men all the time everywhere. Some women have morals and boundaries and wish to honor a pair bond with one man; some don’t.


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## OddOne

I think the chances your wife had a fling with the doctor are very high. To put it at a number, maybe 80% or greater. 

The way I interpret this is that your wife, being the normally good girl that she is, or at least as you perceive her to be, decided to give herself this one permission to cheat, notwithstanding the other incidences you've described which are, at the least, suspicious, with the intention of keeping this her naughty secret. I.e., it was an "experience" she felt she needed to have and one which she may have thought she could put out of her mind. 

Unfortunately, it seems that a consequence of her actions is that she has lost a lot of her desire for you and is using the light sleeper claim as an excuse to be away from you when and where you would most expect intimacy.

Sorry to say, but she probably fantasizes about Dr. Wonderful Soul a lot when she's "sleeping" by herself.

As others have said, you need to ask her to take a polygraph, and, please, don't have kids with her, if you've not already, unless she agrees to take a polygraph and either passes or agrees to fully committing to reconciliation if she fails, then you should consider having kids with her.

Also, one thing you don't mention, unless I missed it, is what her previous relationships were like and how she handled them. I get that she was abused in her youth, but did she say any of her exes cheated on her? Did she ever admit to cheating in her past? If there was any cheating, how did she handle it?


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## Rob Panache

No kids with her, we decided to not do that (I have kids from previous marriage) and there is now no chance of having them. One of the things I really admired about her was how she handled her previous marriage. When her ex found out about the abuse, he lost all interest in her and said he could only see her as his sister now. She went through several years of a loveless marriage and told me that she never cheated, didn't believe in divorce and was determined to stay faithful to him regardless of how he had checked out of the marriage. He finally asked for a divorce to move on. I thought with that background I had someone I could completely trust.


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## Sbrown

She's "kissing" guys when you two were dating and you thought that was appropriate?


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## sokillme

She lies to you too. Here is the deal if they lie about the little things they will lie about the big ones. She also has a history of sexual abuse in her past. Again that seems to be something that lost of people with poor boundaries about sex and fidelity have. Get her phone and check her app usage. See if there is a hidden app.

What I have learned is religious people are really no better morally then non-religious. There are assholes in every group, but sometimes people use religion as a crutch. It's like a get out of jail free card.

There are more red flags here then a May Day parade in the USSR.


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## sokillme

Rob Panache said:


> No kids with her, we decided to not do that (I have kids from previous marriage) and there is now no chance of having them. One of the things I really admired about her was how she handled her previous marriage. When her ex found out about the abuse, he lost all interest in her and said he could only see her as his sister now. She went through several years of a loveless marriage and told me that she never cheated, didn't believe in divorce and was determined to stay faithful to him regardless of how he had checked out of the marriage. He finally asked for a divorce to move on. I thought with that background I had someone I could completely trust.


Bet that is not the whole story.


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## Rob Panache

I don't think anything is still going on with him or anyone else. I do snoop on her phone, sometimes he will send a holiday text that is very professional and she will respond back in kind, then nothing more. If something happened, it is odd that it never comes up in a hint or a "wish I could see you again" type of text. Perhaps he knows not to send anything incriminating to that text number now, but after the conferences he didn't hesitate to use it for the songs, etc.


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## snerg

Question.

Why do you allow her to treat you like you do?

Did something happen with the doctor?
Does it matter?
What she did was beyond inappropriate and disrespectful.
You should have lawyer-ed up before she went to see the doctor in Florida.

The way she treats you is unacceptable.
I don't know why you want to be with someone that treats you like this.
Why can anonymous people from the interwebs see your issue but you refuse to see it?

You don't need a poly.
She *LIED*. Period.
Her behavior is *unacceptable*. Period.

Call and set up a time with a lawyer.
Start divorce process.

Maybe she'll come clean to help alleviate you concerns. 
I doubt it as she would have to admit that what she's doing/done is wrong.


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## Robert22205

Do you feel like you two are primarily roommates?

Does she still travel for business?
Do you ever join her? Does she discourage you from joining her?

IMO, first I'd focus on the present day. Then I'd focus on what may have happened 2 years ago (which is a long shot).

If she's still traveling, select a high risk destination (e.g., where the OM lives or based on your read of her enthusiasm) and then hire a PI. 

Even if the PI finds there is no OM 'this time', the PI may observe behavior that makes her high risk (and will weigh in the probability of inappropriate behavior 2 years ago).

The PI findings also provide topics for you to 'casually' question her about - while observing if she's telling you the truth about what she does (and who with).


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## Thumos

OddOne said:


> if she fails, then you should consider having kids with her.


If she fails don’t have kids period. If you don’t have kids and she fails the poly be done. I wouldn’t be with my cheating wife if we had no kids and she’s done what she’s done. Kids make everything more complicated after infidelity


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## BluesPower

What are you actually looking for here OP. 

Almost everyone thinks she was cheating on you. And of course you are twisting yourself into a pretzel to find some why to believe that your wife was not banging AT LEAST the doctor, and from your denial, basically about anyone else she wanted to. 

The relationship changed, and what you have known for quite sometime is that "Golly, for some reason she is not sleeping in the bed with me..." 

And of course you want any women to post on your thread so what they can tell you oh no it is not that bad. As if by gender they would automatically disagree with the male posters. 

People, men and woman, that have experience with infidelity, KNOW what happened here. Some will give her the benefit of the doubt, but most won't.

Look, men like this doctor, as someone already said, do not date a woman all week at a conference and not screw her multiple times. They just don't. Hell I am not a rich doctor and I would not.

So either get a poly, or get a divorce, or sit around wondering what happened to your life in a few years.


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## sokillme

Rob Panache said:


> I don't think anything is still going on with him or anyone else. I do snoop on her phone, sometimes he will send a holiday text that is very professional and she will respond back in kind, then nothing more. If something happened, it is odd that it never comes up in a hint or a "wish I could see you again" type of text. Perhaps he knows not to send anything incriminating to that text number now, but after the conferences he didn't hesitate to use it for the songs, etc.


Your wife fits the pattern of people who do this kind of thing a lot. Personally I think she just got better at hiding it. It probably isn't just with him. Shiny thing at the end of s stick remember. She probably likes the attention. If she was sexually abused this is the kind of thing that happens in the aftermath.. Many women who were abused at a young age unfortunately learn to use their sexually to get attention in very unhealthy and destructive ways.

I think you have absolutely no idea who your wife is. I think unfortunately you had no context to know. I suggest you read on here and some other sites about infidelity because so many of the things you list about your time with her and her history hit all the standard stuff for infidelity. This will give you some sense of what to look for. Most of us have and that is why we are warning you.

At the very least it's time you had a long conversation with your wife about all of this, but not before you do some investigation. Research how to see app usage on her brand of phone, On an iPhone it's called screen time. Then get into her phone and follow the steps, practice on yours if you need to. If time is short use YOUR phone to take pictures of the screens so you can research the apps later. Then look for any unusual apps or chat apps. Then check her web browsing history. Check your phone bill and look for unusual numbers with lots of activity. Finally pretend to go to bed like you normally do then surprise her after a half and hour or so and go into the room she sleeps in and pretend like you misplaced something that you left there on purpose like your glasses or something. Pick a night when she doesn't seem real tired. 


Time to find you courage.


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## manfromlamancha

She kissed the guy who proposed marriage while dating you ?!?!? Was this not a huge red flag for you ? You seem to be OK with her kissing other guys ?


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## OnTheFly

manfromlamancha said:


> *She kissed the guy who proposed marriage while dating you* ?!?!? Was this not a huge red flag for you ? You seem to be OK with her kissing other guys ?


Two different stories.


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## OddOne

Thumos said:


> If she fails don’t have kids period. If you don’t have kids and she fails the poly be done. I wouldn’t be with my cheating wife if we had no kids and she’s done what she’s done. Kids make everything more complicated after infidelity


Fair enough.


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## sokillme

OnTheFly said:


> Two different stories.


It's two kisses right? The guy who proposed and the guy at the conference. Again a pattern.


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## sokillme

I work with a guy who goes to conferences. He is getting divorced. I asked him if she cheated, he said only twice at conferences. Amazingly his take is because it was only during the conference that it's not really cheating. This is how these people thing. It's like going out drinking or something. Seems like that might be your wife.

Not everyone who goes to conferences but some. It's like a vacation from their morals.


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## OddOne

sokillme said:


> Bet that is not the whole story.


Probably isn't.

Moreover, it just doesn't follow to me that her ex would switch from seeing her as a wife to seeing her as a sister after learning of her past sexual abuse. I understand if he may have been anxious around her after learning of her past. Perhaps he pitied her and thought he had to be extra sensitive and was nervous around her. It's also possible he saw her as damaged goods and was without sympathy. Whatever the case, I just don't get how he would view her as a "sister."


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## Rob Panache

Not sure I should wade in here. No, I'm not OK with a real kiss, meaning a romantic one. In many cultures, and with many people a kiss goodbye is common. The girl who cuts my hair usually gives me a peck on the lips when I leave, I have no interest in her nor her in me. So, if that was the extent, then I wasn't too bothered by it. Obviously, with the time spent, the long dinners, and then a quick confession when asked that it was bigger and longer than before cast it in a new light. At the time, I'm sure I was choosing to ignore it and pretend it was nothing. The marriage proposal guy was a real kiss, not to make excuses, but we only had one or two dates when this happened and we were not serious yet. On reflection, I wonder now if that was much more than a kiss to get a proposal and also for her to decide he wasn't for her.


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## bandit.45

Rob Panache said:


> No kids with her, we decided to not do that (I have kids from previous marriage) and there is now no chance of having them. One of the things I really admired about her was how she handled her previous marriage. When her ex found out about the abuse, he lost all interest in her and said he could only see her as his sister now. She went through several years of a loveless marriage and told me that she never cheated, didn't believe in divorce and was determined to stay faithful to him regardless of how he had checked out of the marriage. He finally asked for a divorce to move on. I thought with that background I had someone I could completely trust.


Have you ever met or spoken to her first husband? I would question whether she is giving you the whole story. 

Be that as it may, maybe this incident with Dr. Dreamy was a one-off. Maybe she didn't go all the way with him those days she spent with him. But in my book she cheated. She kissed him. Really? What married woman gives another man kisses? I have been a professional in the construction and development world for decades, and during that time I have met many female saleswomen and real estate agents who have tried to get my business and not once did any one of those women allow me to hug them, snuggle with them or kiss them... much less have sex with them... in order to close a deal. What your wife did was so out of bounds. And then to call you and give you a play by play? As if that would make what she was doing better. 

Your gut is screaming at you that she sealed the deal with sex... many times. You have three choices as I see it: 1) Ignore your gut and go forward in a sexless, cold marriage like you are now, 2) divorce her for adultery (you don't have to prove it); or 3) ask her to take a polygraph and see where that goes. As it stands, if she is sleeping in another bedroom, you are not in a marriage. She has checked out brother.


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## Rob Panache

On the topic of her ex, he seems really messed up to me, he is from other stories a very self centered uncaring person. It doesn't all make sense to me either, He had a son from a previous marriage that he didn't see for most of his life. When the son got into big trouble with drugs and gangs, my wife took him in when he refused and helped straighten him out, got him through professional school and back on his feet. He had no interest in any of it.


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## sokillme

Rob Panache said:


> On the topic of her ex, he seems really messed up to me, he is from other stories a very self centered uncaring person. It doesn't all make sense to me either, He had a son from a previous marriage that he didn't see for most of his life. When the son got into big trouble with drugs and gangs, my wife took him in when he refused and helped straighten him out, got him through professional school and back on his feet. He had no interest in any of it.


Why do believe she was married to such a loser?


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## OddOne

Then ex husband most likely saw her as damaged goods. 

Also possible she tested his boundaries a lot and he got fed up with her behavior. Whether he was unreasonable or she was, I can't know. What I do know is that if one is going to lose interest in a partner, it's much more likely to be as a result of recent behavior, or past behavior that still involved that person rather something in the distant past that had nothing to do with that person.


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## Rob Panache

Why she married him, I have no idea, I think it stems back to the abuse and self image. As she said, the man who should have never touched me did, and the man who should have didn't want to. Was there more to the story? I guess there always is. There are no greater lies then the ones we tell ourselves.


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## Tdbo

The whole story as you outlined it was bizarre. At an absolute minimum, she has severely disrespected you and your marriage. If I were a betting man, she certainly hooked up with Dr. Dreamboat on that trip, and I'll bet they are still, using nefarious means, in contact inappropriately.
You should have dealt with this two years ago. If my wife ever pulled that kind of crap with me. I would be sitting at the kitchen table with divorce papers in my hand to open the discussion. Where it went from there, would be largely incumbent on verifiable evidence she could provide me that nothing did happen. Basically, what you described to me would be marriage ending by my standards.
What you have described since that time is troubling and concerning. The best I have for you right now is to throw a "Hail Mary."
Take a week. Do a deep dive into everything (phones/computers.) Search for a burner phone. Put VAR's wherever she talks on the phone and in her car. Consider a keylogger on the computer and phone. Take a pad of paper and outline what are your requirements to feel safe in the marriage. Talk to a good divorce attorney, prepare for the worst, sort out your financials. and make the necessary moves. Have paperwork drawn up. Review what you find out from your investigation during the week, in conjunction with what you already know. I'll be amazed if there is nothing there.
Do what I outlined in paragraph 2. If there is nothing dishonest, she should be legitimately shocked and willing to do the work to make things better. If she starts gaslighting, file swiftly.
Shock and awe is your best bet now.
Tell her since she is the one who broke it, she has to be the one who fixes it.


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## bandit.45

One reason she may be sleeping in the other bedroom is so that she can spend time e-mailing or texting Dr. Dreamy or some other guy. She needs her privacy. 

Otherwise, she should not be wanting to be anywhere but sleeping next to you every night. What she is doing is not normal. That is not a normal marriage.


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## sokillme

Rob Panache said:


> I guess there always is. There are no greater lies then the ones we tell ourselves.


Sorry but this can't be your attitude or you should just not worry about it. 

Anyway from your response it's clear that her past history has affected her decision making. Well once again it should be said that you find past sexual abuse is a big factor in a great many people who cheat. It's like one of the top indicators, so much so that I often suggest men who are cheated on ask their unfaithful wives "when" not if "they were sexual abused."


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## sokillme

Tdbo said:


> Do a deep dive into everything (phones/computers.) Search for a burner phone. Put VAR's wherever she talks on the phone and in her car. Consider a keylogger on the computer and phone. Take a pad of paper and outline what are your requirements to feel safe in the marriage.


You could do all that but really do you want to stay married if you have to? Sounds like a horrible life. Better to start distancing yourself from her particularly emotionally with the intention of being fully emotionally detached so it will be easy to disconnect. In other words detach from the marriage and start preparing to be single again. NOT CHEAT or anything like that but start to change your emotional priorities.

This would be my take if something like this happened. If I was able to address it immediately I would do the kitchen table with divorce papers thing but I would say there would be a10% chance that we would stay together even if she could prove nothing happened. The type of person she is is just not the kind of person it is worth being married to. I am not interested in being married to a women who is still out dating.

Now if it was something that happened before and I had no way to really know exactly what but it fell inline with this situaion where it was at least something very inappropriate, I would then move to emotionally detach with the intention to make it easier for me to separate sometime soon in the future. I would be getting in shape as well, basically preparing for my afterlife. Kind of the thing her first husband did right? Makes you think. It's hard to treat your wife like a wife when she acts like she is single.


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## sokillme

bandit.45 said:


> One reason she may be sleeping in the other bedroom is so that she can spend time e-mailing or texting Dr. Dreamy or some other guy. She needs her privacy.
> 
> Otherwise, she should not be wanting to be anywhere but sleeping next to you every night. What she is doing is not normal. That is not a normal marriage.


Which is why I said pretend like you left something in the room and enter unannounced while she is in there.


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## sokillme

OddOne said:


> It just doesn't follow to me that her ex would switch from seeing her as a wife to seeing her as a sister after learning of her past sexual abuse.


Unless there was some sexual history that was particularly off putting to him, such as prostitution or lifestyle stuff that he found out after the fact. For instance I wouldn't be able to stay married to my wife if I found out she was a swinger in her past as an example. No offense to swingers, but that lifestyle shows that our thinking about sex is incompatible. And that would be the antithesis of how she presented herself in our many talks about sex before we were married. Which would make her a fraud which is even worse in my book. Inauthentic people are the worst especially to be married to. Interestingly enough I might have a different take on prostitution depending on some factors. If she was starving for instance. I also don't care what she did with the guys I know she was with. Never asked for specifics. Thing is she was very open about her past so I didn't feel the need to. It was more about general attitude about sex.

And for those of you that offends it's no different then not wanting to be with someone because they are an Republican. We all have a right to our deal breakers.


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## Thumos

Rob Panache said:


> At the time, I'm sure I was choosing to ignore it and pretend it was nothing.


Don’t beat yourself up too much on that. Happens a lot. If you spend too much time in self recriminations (and believe me I know what I’m talking about) it slows down your thinking and keeps you off your game.

Now your eyes are open, so don’t close them again. You know what NOT to do. And a lot of people here can help you with what you SHOULD do now going forward.


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## michzz

Rob Panache said:


> <snip>
> Her personality and priorities are very altruistic, her faith is very important to her and is very genuine.
> <snip>


Wow! Do you really think this?

She lies to you, hides an affair, and violates her faith's tenets.

She is no altruist. Far from it!


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## Thumos

Here’s the interesting thing: Almost all of the time adults assemble a sort of mask and costume for themselves in their teens and twenties. This mask and costume are accoutrements, not the real person. They’re playing a role. We ALL do this. Every one of us. 

But as we grow into our 30s, 40s and 50s The mask and costume become timeworn, tattered, harder to maintain. And the real person is steadily and steadily revealed more and more each day. Some people frantically try to keep that costume and mask stitched together. Most healthy people say, aw the heck with this thing.

For many of us this is a liberating experience, and it’s One reason why old people are so damn happy and also why most of them just don’t seem to give a damn about what people think of them one way or another. Studies have shown seniors are the happiest damn people on the planet most of the time, EVEN when they are sick. EVEN when they are dying. 

By shedding that mask and costume — and that confining ROLE we designed for ourselves -- we get to be more true to ourselves and more authentic. 

But for a few sad folks, the loss of that costume is like being exposed and made to feel naked. For them, it’s a frightening experience. Because the person they really are is actually pretty damn ugly. 

The screenwriting coach Robert McKee famously observed, “True *character* is *revealed* in the choices a human being makes *under pressure* - the greater the *pressure*, the deeper the revelation, the truer the choice to the *character's* essential nature.”

Think about it.


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## sokillme

Thumos said:


> Here’s the interesting thing: Almost all of the time adults assemble a sort of mask and costume for themselves in their teens and twenties. This mask and costume are accoutrements, not the real person. They’re playing a role. We ALL do this. Every one of us.
> 
> But as we grow into our 30s, 40s and 50s The mask and costume become timeworn, tattered, harder to maintain. And the real person is steadily and steadily revealed more and more each day. Some people frantically try to keep that costume and mask stitched together. Most healthy people say, aw the heck with this thing.
> 
> For many of us this is a liberating experience, and it’s One reason why old people are so damn happy and also why most of them just don’t seem to give a damn about what people think of them one way or another. Studies have shown seniors are the happiest damn people on the planet most of the time, EVEN when they are sick. EVEN when they are dying.
> 
> By shedding that mask and costume — and that confining ROLE we designed for ourselves -- we get to be more true to ourselves and more authentic.
> 
> But for a few sad folks, the loss of that costume is like being exposed and made to feel naked. For them, it’s a frightening experience. Because the person they really are is actually pretty damn ugly.
> 
> The screenwriting coach Robert McKee famously observed, “True *character* is *revealed* in the choices a human being makes *under pressure* - the greater the *pressure*, the deeper the revelation, the truer the choice to the *character's* essential nature.”
> 
> Think about it.


Really good post. I am glad I got you voice over here. Yes I am taking the credit.


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## Rob Panache

michzz said:


> Wow! Do you really think this?
> 
> She lies to you, hides an affair, and violates her faith's tenets.
> 
> She is no altruist. Far from it!


I was describing the person I know day in and day out over the past few years, which is why it has been hard to reconcile the events that I posted vs. the person I watched in action in 'normal' life. I know the evidence is strong, but an affair has not been confirmed yet. Hope that helps convey where my mind was at when I wrote that.


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## sokillme

Rob Panache said:


> I was describing the person I know day in and day out over the past few years, which is why it has been hard to reconcile the events that I posted vs. the person I watched in action in 'normal' life. I know the evidence is strong, but an affair has not been confirmed yet. Hope that helps convey where my mind was at when I wrote that.


Part of your pain is this dissonance. You know something doesn't fell right. The idea of not knowing about something and someone so integral to your life is just awful. It takes away your agency because you can't make informed decisions about yourself and your future. Unfortunately some people lead double lives, and in today's day and age with tech it's easy. You need to start to investigate.

Taking agency back in your life irregardless of your wife is how you start to make the pain and doubt go away.


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## Robert22205

Place a motion detector video cam in her bedroom and see if she's texting someone (and deleting).


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## [email protected]

Oh Boy Rob, these conferences are often loaded with dalliances. I think you know she's cheating, but want to avoid it.


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## Mr.Married

The more you write, the more I think your headed for heartbreak.
Again.. I’m not saying she did or did not but she sure enjoys the attention in too intimate a fashion


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## Thumos

Rob Panache said:


> I was describing the person I know day in and day out over the past few years, which is why it has been hard to reconcile the events that I posted vs. the person I watched in action in 'normal' life. I know the evidence is strong, but an affair has not been confirmed yet. Hope that helps convey where my mind was at when I wrote that.


Read my post about costumes and masks. If you’re a genuine empathetic person, unfortunately you’re going to meet people in life who aren’t who they seem to be. You take them at face value, because that’s how YOU operate. This does put you at a disadvantage but I wouldn’t want to live any other way. You can’t be blamed for thinking the best of her, but now you’re seeing someone else and if you go back to sleep you’re just willfully lying to yourself. 

This cognitive dissonance will eat at you - in fact, I think it already was and the discovery of the photos was just a “precipitating event” that caused an epiphany. A bit like a reversal moment in a movie when some profound realization is revealed and changes everything we know about the story that came before.

You‘re on the verge of that profound realization. It will shock you, but also probably make the world kind of “come alive” more and things will begin to make sense. Now once your eyes are opened, you’ll be a little more cautious and you’ll perhaps listen to your intuition/gut feelings about people more. 

Your gut is telling you something is very wrong here. Your gut almost always right and almost never wrong.


----------



## Thumos

Perhaps it’s been recommended, but you may want to consider a VAR in her car and another somewhere in the house where she regularly puts on her makeup. You can find out more about how to set this up in the Standard Evidence Post that is here at TAM I think. That’s a lot more cut to the chase and will probably tell you what you need to know much more quickly than many of the cat and mouse games of walking in suddenly on her etc. A VAR just sits there and gathers information. If you do it, NEVER reveal that you did.


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## michzz

Rob Panache said:


> I was describing the person I know day in and day out over the past few years, which is why it has been hard to reconcile the events that I posted vs. the person I watched in action in 'normal' life. I know the evidence is strong, but an affair has not been confirmed yet. Hope that helps convey where my mind was at when I wrote that.


I think you are experiencing the disconnect between who you thought she is and who she really is. It does not matter that she was successful for a long time convincing you of a persona. She has revealed now who she really is.

React accordingly.

She is not the person you thought she is. So you have decisions to make and have to ACT in your own best interests. She never will.


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## Thor

The abuse history is a big player in her life. Even if she keeps it well hidden (which most CSA victims do), it has had a huge effect on her basic ground rules she sees the world by. One of these rules is to strictly compartmentalize different parts of her life. When she is out at a convention or work event it, in her mind, has zero to do with her life back at home. If you think of sealed compartments where the contents of one do not influence the other, that is how she may view things.

Another basic ground rule is to keep hidden anything she fears would be negatively judged. CSA survivors can be very successful people, and they can appear to the outside world as outstanding role models in every way. Projecting this image is important, as is keeping those other things secret. What may have helped her as a child/teen when she kept things secret can be incorrectly generalized as an adult that keeping secrets from her husband is ok. If you're detecting lies already then it is likely this is part of her basic road map, that lying to you in order to get what she wants is ok, and the different compartments means she doesn't see how it could affect you.

She can seem pretty vanilla or even repressed sexually within your marriage yet be unrestrained sexually outside of marriage. Many men have mistakenly thought their wives couldn't be cheating because they have difficulty with sex within the marriage.

Now that is a pretty broad brush which doesn't apply to every CSA survivor, but it is common. As someone else already posted, CSA is also highly correlated to women's infidelity. Her CSA is a completely separate issue from your concerns about what happened, but the point is that it is potentially a very large red flag as well as potentially a cause for other marital problems. You can't do anything about it and you can't say anything about it. Just be aware of it.


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## Rob Panache

I believe this may the heart of my problem. She once told me that her father would remind her to not share with anyone because they simply wouldn't understand, and she was aware that this had a big influence on her to not fully share things with others that she didn't think they would understand. Her awareness of the impact of what happened to her made me feel comfortable that she had come to terms with it and "healed" from the wounds. The compartmentalization seems to match what I've been sensing. As I mentioned earlier, that sense of Jekyll and Hyde behaviors.


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## manfromlamancha

Sbrown said:


> She's "kissing" guys when you two were dating and you thought that was appropriate?





OnTheFly said:


> Two different stories.



No its not two different stories - check posts #42 and #44. She was dating OP. Some rich guy proposed marriage. They _kissed _but she turned him down.


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## OnTheFly

manfromlamancha said:


> No its not two different stories - check posts #42 and #44. She was dating OP. Some rich guy proposed marriage. They _kissed _but she turned him down.


Yeah, the story unfolded faster than I did.


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## ABHale

Rob Panache said:


> I was describing the person I know day in and day out over the past few years, which is why it has been hard to reconcile the events that I posted vs. the person I watched in action in 'normal' life. I know the evidence is strong, but an affair has not been confirmed yet. Hope that helps convey where my mind was at when I wrote that.


There is nothing you can do to confirm an affair at this point.

Your wife and the OM know the truth of the situation and they will never tell you one way or another.

Those that lie in the little things will lie about the bigger ones with no problems.

There is nothing conservative about your wife with what you have told us about. She was sexed up times 10.


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## Rob Panache

Thank you everyone for your insights and thoughts. There has some great information on CSA victims, can anyone recommend a good book? I'm really trying to understand this. There is such an extreme disconnect in what I experience week in and week out, and then times where it appears she goes 'off the rails'. For my own sanity I need to understand this more. I'm digging deeper on this side to see if anything else surfaces.


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## Thumos

VAR


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## Rob Panache

Any particular one you have found to be good?


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## Thumos

The model number changes all the time but go to Bestbuy and get the Sony model that is around $60 with the good built in microphone. Don’t go cheap. Make sure it has good onboard storage. get some industrial Velcro strips at Walmart to secure it. Mute all sounds and lights on the device (some people put tape on the display) - clip a a pair of cheap headphones and then plug them into the audio jack to prevent accidental audible playback. It’s cheap, surprisingly easy and you will know in a matter of a week or so if you’ve got a problem.

I know this sounds nutty and surreal and it is. But this is what I did and I got a crystal clear conversation that told me everything I needed to know.


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## Rob Panache

In my case, I don't think I will find anything going on now (she is very open about me picking up her phone to search for something when mine is in the other room, etc.). I think my issue may be more when she is traveling or the situation is right and the mood strikes. Thank you for the info though, I will try it regardless.


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## bandit.45

She could have a burner phone, and that may be why she sleeps in another room.


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## Blondilocks

Rob Panache said:


> The girl who cuts my hair usually gives me a peck on the lips when I leave,


Really???


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## BluesPower

Rob Panache said:


> In my case, I don't think I will find anything going on now (she is very open about me picking up her phone to search for something when mine is in the other room, etc.). I think my issue may be more when she is traveling or the situation is right and the mood strikes. Thank you for the info though, I will try it regardless.


Rob, brother, like someone already said, she probably has a burner phone. 

And if she does not, does she have her laptop with her when she is in "Her" room? Does she have her phone? 

If you are not a troll, please listen. YOU KNOW NOTHING. Nothing at all. You have been weak for the entire marriage, and you are still being weak. How often do you guys have sex? What has the frequency been over the years? 

Does she take her "phone that you have access to" to HER ROOM? Do you know all of the apps that she has on her phone? Have you run any recovery software on her phone to see if you can recover anything? 

Does she have a work phone, or work email that you do not have access to? Does she have work voice mail that you don't know about? 

The point is to all of this is...
1) You can here posting your story
2) Most people tell you that she is and has been cheating on you and for sure she screwed the doctor
3) You proceed to tell us you really don't think anything is going on and you just DONT know if she is screwing other people. 
4) You have made no move, none, not one move that will start to get you some answers. 
5) You continue to wallow in limbo because so far, you are too scared to make a move. 

What will it take for you to make a move for YOU and YOUR life, and guess what, it may or may not include your so called wife???????


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## Thumos

There are also VARs made to look like pens that can go in her purse for when she travels. You can find on amazon

don’t be passive and use excuses for inaction. It will bite you in the ass. You have no idea what a VAR in her car might turn up


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## OutofRetirement

Rob Panache said:


> Thank you everyone for your insights and thoughts. There has some great information on CSA victims, can anyone recommend a good book? I'm really trying to understand this. There is such an extreme disconnect in what I experience week in and week out, and then times where it appears she goes 'off the rails'. For my own sanity I need to understand this more. I'm digging deeper on this side to see if anything else surfaces.


Has she received counseling for the CSA? From what I have experienced and observed, victims develop coping mechanisms during the CSA and afterwards, frequently the victim is victimized twice, first by the abuser and second when the victim tells the parents they are not believed, or it is made worse, and victim blamed for it. The coping mechanism is to never tell the truth to anyone you really care about (telling people you don't care about is easy because you have nothing to lose). There are several other very serious coping mechanisms that tend to sabotage healthy relationships later in life but there is a lot of info out there. If she needs counselling, she should see someone who specializes in that. The problem with the coping mechanisms, depending on the age when the abuse occurred and how long it went on, the coping mechanism behaviors become second nature and even though as an adult years later the abuse is not present, and the coping mechanism no longer is needed to cope, the behaviors are still entrenched and continues. I have never seen a case where these types of issues are fixed on sheer will and in all cases I'm aware the CSA victim is not really self aware of the behaviors. She has gotten by in life, may be successful. A lot depends from what I've seen is if they had one person who always stood behind her, usually it's not the parents, maybe an aunt or grandfather, there tends to be more resiliency in those cases. The extent of the abuse makes a big difference, too.

Regardless of any CSA issues, I find a few instances you posted as being very telling. In no particular order, you mention that a man sitting in a lobby told her to sit down, she did, and he tried to convince her to have sex with him for an hour. I believe if a man said that to any adult, we would speak to him briefly, ask what he wanted. If he wanted to have sex with a "normal" adult, the adult would just say no and walk away. That is some serious issue if the story she told you is true, that she sat with a guy for an hour while all he did was try to convince her to have sex with him. And if that is true, then I would not think it was a one-off, but how she conducts herself with men in general. And I would extrapolate that to all other dealings with men. Moving on to the numerous other situations you have described in your posts, it does seem to synchronize with her other interactions with men. The good doctor you were most concerned with, your wife spent way too much with, and didn't seem able to just say "enough is enough" and she did not have the skills to just tell the guy "we have talked enough about our business dealings, there is no need to go dining and dancing and enjoying Epcot together. Forty hours is not needed to come to a decision about whether you want to invest in my company.

I had a girlfriend when I was a very young adult, maybe the hottest girl ever in the universe. Certainly there couldn't be any hotter. She was very outgoing, upbeat. She smiled at people. She had sex appeal, she didn't have to show a lot of skin. And guys did hit on her constantly. Understand I was a college kid, occasionally we went to a nice restaurant for special days, and older guys would hit on her right in front of me (usually when I went to the bathroom, and it usually didn't turn out well for them when I arrived back). But she would entertain them. She wouldn't tell them to bug off (after a while of me abusing them she did try to warn them). All I'm saying is guys get confused when a pretty girl smiles. Remember too that this girl was my age, in college, and women like men learn from their experiences. I have not stayed in touch, but I know many other women who probably were in that situation who learned how to deal with it as they matured. Certainly your wife is of an age that she should be able to handle it quite easily, but it seems to me that she cannot.

I would not be surprised at all if your wife had cheated. Neither would I be surprised if she did not cheat. You have not convinced me one way or the other. But you have convinced me that your wife has issues with saying "no" to men. She may be able to ultimately say "no" when it comes to sex/romance, but she allows way too much for guys who do this. The last thing for now is if your wife is basically in some type of sale situation, even if it is courting for investors, why is it only guys who need to spend so much time with her to determine if the deal will be good? Why don't women want multiple dinners to discuss "business"? Does your wife ever wonder about that, or you?


----------



## jlg07

Rob Panache said:


> her faith is very important to her and is very genuine


A woman who has a strong faith does NOT do what she did with other men when she is married. She is a hypocrite at the very least.


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## BluesPower

I am thinking OP is probably gone, I hope not. 

Seems like you really cannot help some people. 

I guess we will see...


----------



## Thumos

BluesPower said:


> OP is probably gone,


He was here just six hours ago asking specifically what kind of VAR he should get. So let’s give him some time. Maybe he’s out buying one and getting his ducks in a row.


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## BluesPower

Thumos said:


> He was here just six hours ago asking specifically what kind of VAR he should get. So let’s give him some time. Maybe he’s out buying one and getting his ducks in a row.


Gosh I hope you are right. I would really hate to think he would accept what is going on in his life. 

But you know, she may not cheat until she goes out of town, she just picks a BF from the conference and bangs him at the conference. 

Either way, she was banging the doc and the relationship is stale, he needs to get out.


----------



## ABHale

Rob Panache said:


> Thank you everyone for your insights and thoughts. There has some great information on CSA victims, can anyone recommend a good book? I'm really trying to understand this. There is such an extreme disconnect in what I experience week in and week out, and then times where it appears she goes 'off the rails'. For my own sanity I need to understand this more. I'm digging deeper on this side to see if anything else surfaces.


Every betrayed spouse wants to know why it happens. They are still seeking the answer of why.


----------



## Rob Panache

I've been traveling today, just catching back up. Reading both the advice and the abuse. I hold my cards pretty close, I have much more data regarding her emails, accounts, phone, records, etc. then some are presuming. I dig and snoop, and have been for some time. Seeing nothing new or out of the ordinary since that trip left me wondering if sex happened, but the issues are deeper than just if she cheated on that trip or not. Let me catch up a bit here.


----------



## RandomDude

BluesPower said:


> Gosh I hope you are right. I would really hate to think he would accept what is going on in his life.
> 
> But you know, she may not cheat until she goes out of town, she just picks a BF from the conference and bangs him at the conference.
> 
> Either way, she was banging the doc and the relationship is stale, he needs to get out.


Yes, some cheaters actually believe when it doesn't happen in their home town, it's not considered cheating. I've seen quite a few examples.


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## SunCMars

MattMatt said:


> El Cid thought he was going to get some, but it's possible your wife held back.
> 
> But what she was doing was very shady, very unprofessional and it reflects badly on her.


I agree with this.
........................................................................

She was also comfortable telling you they hugged and kissed. More than once! 
WTH!!

And you let it go.....

She is hard core and brazen.

She went on multiple dates with this man. She let him hold her close, when dancing.
She admitted the kisses. 

She wore see-through clothing.
He saw her goodies, did he not, that night at Epcot, yes?

We do not know if she stiffed him (allowing for no intercourse), or, if he stiffed her, a time or two.

Doubt, is that damnable feeling.

.....................................................................

Let it go.....again.

Get her out of sales, out of traveling. She has loose boundaries and is a clever (experienced) user of men.


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## Mr.Married

Or perhaps her success and ability to reel in guys is her mechanism to tell herself “ I’m in control of them ... I have beaten my past”


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## SunCMars

Rob Panache said:


> In my case, I don't think I will find anything going on now (she is very open about me picking up her phone to search for something when mine is in the other room, etc.). *I think my issue may be more when she is traveling or the situation is right and the mood strikes.* Thank you for the info though, I will try it regardless.


I agree with this. 
Gasp, a good grasp, on your part...

Mrs Hyde becomes visible, when, _far_ from your sight.
She is an opportunist. This MO has worked well for her....so _far._

So _far_ from your prying eyes.

However, now that you are on to her, she is nevermore, beyond your insight.

You might consider hiring a private investigator to tail her tail on her next trip.

...................................................................

I went on many deployments while in the military. Many males and females took advantage of this, far and away, out of sight, and mind...time.

They cheated. With each other or with townies.


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## Beach123

Rob Panache said:


> Changes in the relationship, the connection seems less to me, she often sleeps in a back bedroom instead of with me. She says it is because she is a light sleeper and doesn't want me waking her up or her waking me up if she can't sleep, but this was not a problem at the beginning of our relationship. She sometimes goes without a bra with the right outfit when we go out, but dressing for me in those cases. She never flirts or even looks at other men when when we are out together. Were the kisses real? Not sure, hard to believe something termed bigger and longer would still be innocent and closed lip. He was obviously after her and wouldn't be put off that easily, if a woman allows a kiss more than once then a typical man will take advantage of it. I agree, he was showing her off as a trophy to his doctor friends and the length of time of each lunch and dinner outing was a big red flag to me. These were not group dinners, but all one on one dinners (with the exception of the receptions). I appreciate all the feedback. Any females on the forum that would give their opinion? They might see things in a different light (maybe females have already weighed in and I just missed the distinction).


Polygraph her!

I worked in sales and was very successful. Never did I need any meal alone with an associate to get a sale. Never did I let any man put his arm around me much less kiss me. Doesn’t look like she was selling the product for the company.

the amount of time spent alone with him - it makes it look like she slept with him - and she probably did...she was impressed by him. Then they set up the next get together (you should have also attended).
She’s lying. Polygraph time. Ask specifically if she had sex with Dr *___*. The answer will show she did - so know what you’re gonna do when you have the evidence.


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## SunCMars

Tell us...

What is it you want?

Do you want to know the truth, or do you want to own the truth, all of it?

You already know the truth, she cannot be trusted.
She lets men date her, touch her, kiss her.

You allowed this.
You permitted this behavior and both of you, even talked it up.

It seemed her failings became your encouragement.
She knows her actions were/are wrong, yet she shared them with you and you did nothing to save her from herself.

Not, that saving her is/was possible.

She obviously enjoys this.
She has men figured out, and I suspect she really does not like men, that much.
It is the conquest that she likes.

She has conquered you, and finds you lacking in protectiveness.

In the end, she knows she has no self esteem, no value outside her beauty.

She knows her husband allowed to sell herself, to get sales.
This is what depresses her.

Her behavior cannot be excused.
A married woman should never do what she did.

You should either let her go, or work with her (if possible).
She needs individual counseling.
And she needs to know that you know all her trespasses and are willing to finally rid her of this wayward behavior.

If your love is so great, then heal her (if possible).

My opinion is that you are on the fence.

You are looking at your wife and wondering, is her beauty worth having the doubt that comes with really knowing her? And now she has become cool and shrinking from your touch.

*She chooses not to help herself* when alone and on her own, and neither did you strongly caution her...

By encouraging this behavior with clients, you did not make her feel safe in monogamy.

Yes, a husband should never be required to keep a wife within proper boundaries.
In her case, uh, yeah, she needed this chastisement!


She is disappointed in you, in that you allowed her to succeed, at any cost, even to your marriage.

Is it the details that you seek, *or the knowledge of the extent that her shields were penetrated*?

You know proper boundaries were breached. She left the door open, that is obvious.

Trying to fix her might be a fools errand and too late.

She may have, already, checked out of your marriage. Sounds like it.

Or, she is waiting for you to put your foot down and to insist that she now walk the straight marital line.

I think she is checked out and biding her time.

For what?
That, remains to be seen.


_THRD-_

For all we know, you are just stringing her along for your own jollies and maybe stringing us along for the same reason.
She may have concluded this, and we may be following this same windy tack.

What is missing in your thread, is normal outrage and great angst and pain.


----------



## Rob Panache

That is perhaps just the reply I needed to hear. I do own at least part of this. The pain is there, but I hide it pretty well. I just went through a business betrayal by a close friend with significant loss of money, so I'm a bit shell shocked and do not really want to believe she would be capable of doing it and hiding it from me. I already knew before your response that attempting healing was what I need and want to do, you gave me parameters in which to think that through. I thought knowing the truth of the extent of what happened would help me as I tried to figure this whole situation out.


----------



## SunCMars

Rob Panache said:


> That is perhaps just the reply I needed to hear. I do own at least part of this. The pain is there, but I hide it pretty well. I just went through a business betrayal by a close friend with significant loss of money, so I'm a bit shell shocked and do not really want to believe she would be capable of doing it and hiding it from me. I already knew before your response that attempting healing was what I need and want to do, you gave me parameters in which to think that through. I thought knowing the truth of the extent of what happened would help me as I tried to figure this whole situation out.





Rob Panache said:


> That is perhaps just the reply I needed to hear. I do own at least part of this. The pain is there, but I hide it pretty well. I just went through a business betrayal by a close friend with significant loss of money, so I'm a bit shell shocked and do not really want to believe she would be capable of doing it and hiding it from me. I already knew before your response that attempting healing was what I need and want to do, you gave me parameters in which to think that through. I thought knowing the truth of the extent of what happened would help me as I tried to figure this whole situation out.


Ah, good..
Well, maybe not.
........................................................................
A, (not so funny) thing is...

A spouse and a business partner fall in the same place in your Natal Horoscope.
That place being the 7th of Houses. It is obviously 'afflicted' in some manner.

You have been betrayed by both, you can bank on it. 

To me, this confirms the betrayal on both their parts.

Your wife did this betraying two years ago, and from what is sounds like, very likely did so, on other occasions. 

Your business partner also has these issues with honesty and loyalty. Imagine that.
The 7th House is a sore spot in your life. A place where you can be had.

Are you having any issues with the Government, or with local authorities, legal problems, maybe the IRS?
Are there issues at home, with expensive problems, or with tension at home, now forthcoming?
Do you have any health concerns, headaches, eye issues, etc.?

Just sayin'


_King Brian-_

I ask this to see where else the tension lies. It is very rarely a singular stab in/to your makeup and situation.
Your business partner, has 'likely' been cheating you for a similar time period.


----------



## Rob Panache

I guess I'm not very familiar with Natal Horoscope, but I'll answer the questions. No health issues, no IRS or government or legal issues either. The business partner put me into financial challenges, but climbing out of that. I was, however, blindsided by my ex-wife with a divorce and another man in her her life which she moved in within a week of my departure. So, I guess I do have a 'weakness' here. Not sure if I"m just too trusting or naive? I've been very successful in my career and have good life long friends (except for the old business partner!). What does that tell you?


----------



## Blondilocks

You and your wife need to have a little conversation regarding her work wardrobe. Just in case you're not up to speed: women don't wear see-through clothing to work or at work events. Unless, they're offering more than the company's products.


----------



## 241happyhour

sokillme said:


> I work with a guy who goes to conferences. He is getting divorced. I asked him if she cheated, he said only twice at conferences. Amazingly his take is because it was only during the conference that it's not really cheating. This is how these people thing. It's like going out drinking or something. Seems like that might be your wife.
> 
> Not everyone who goes to conferences but some. It's like a vacation from their morals.


I go to conferences all the time and it’s like a free for all for some people. If a person wants to cheat then it is incredibly easy to do so. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## OutofRetirement

Rob Panache said:


> I have much more data regarding her emails, accounts, phone, records, etc. then some are presuming.
> 
> the issues are deeper than just if she cheated on that trip or not.


?


----------



## lucy999

Do NOT put a pen VAR in her purse. We women know every single thing in the most remote regions of our bag. She will find it.

I'm bothered by:

1. Her gaslighting abilities on inane things to you and your/her friends--so much so, that you and said friends have talked about it and you have chalked it up to a "personality quirk." No. It's gaslighting. Just because it's a dumb or trivial subject doesn't mean it's something else. That's a huge problem.

2. At that particular conference, the sudden change in the routine of her texting you her OOTD and large lapses of time in between her telling you she will call you vs. when she actually did. And her too-long lunches and dinners.

3. Her looking way too cozy with the doctor in those photos. Your friend's comment about it has alot of weight.

4. That she's sleeping in a separate room. How long has this been going on? Her excuses are so lame. How's your sex life?

I would say they had sex, BUT the other stories you've told about men proposing and falling at her feet make me think maybe not. Sounds like she gets this sort of attention regularly. She must be a really hot tamale.

Obviously, her boundaries are painfully bad and need to be tightened up immediately. I also cringe at her lack of professionalism. She should be careful--she doesn't want to get a rep as the company ho.

I'm aghast that you've accepted her sleeping in another room. How did that conversation go? You've told us her lame ass excuses but did you just roll over? Did you put up a fight?

What is your plan moving forward?


----------



## ABHale

You put your trust in people that have no business with it.

You never watch your six because you trust someone to cover it that has already bugged out.

You never watch out for YOURSELF.

You need to read No More Mr Nice Guy.

You need to run your business life like everyone is out to get you. While also working as a team.

Don’t trust that people would do the right thing when it comes to your marriage or business relationships.

Your wife is more then likely not doing anything now. This is not the case 2 years ago.

Fact you know. 

She broke her normal routine when she meet doctor right fit. (Who was he a right fit for)

She dated and kissed him. He wasn’t a close friend or family to get a kiss of any sort. (I understand a kiss among family and friends. My moms side of the family is French. A kiss on the cheek or lips is normal with family and friends when I visited 40-30 years ago. Freaked me out the first time.)

Your relationship has declined ever since this all happened. Something broke the bond between the two of you. Did she realize that she really didn’t love you because of went on with the doctor?

The two of you don’t even sleep in the same bed any longer.

There are many ways to talk with people that can’t be traced.


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## sokillme

Rob Panache said:


> That is perhaps just the reply I needed to hear. I do own at least part of this. The pain is there, but I hide it pretty well. I just went through a business betrayal by a close friend with significant loss of money, so I'm a bit shell shocked and do not really want to believe she would be capable of doing it and hiding it from me. I already knew before your response that attempting healing was what I need and want to do, you gave me parameters in which to think that through. I thought knowing the truth of the extent of what happened would help me as I tried to figure this whole situation out.


Not trying to kick you when your down but it seems to be a pattern. Dude indecisive unassertive people are taken advantage of. That's just how it works.

Even when they grow up most people are like children, they are going to try to get away with whatever you will let them. Also if you are like this you will attract the kind of people who will try because maybe even subconsciously you look like an easy target.

You need to change, start with your wife.


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## BluesPower

Rob Panache said:


> I guess I'm not very familiar with Natal Horoscope, but I'll answer the questions. No health issues, no IRS or government or legal issues either. The business partner put me into financial challenges, but climbing out of that. I was, however, blindsided by my ex-wife with a divorce and another man in her her life which she moved in within a week of my departure. So, I guess I do have a 'weakness' here. Not sure if I"m just too trusting or naive? I've been very successful in my career and have good life long friends (except for the old business partner!). What does that tell you?


This tells me that you are naïve, too trusting, and too insecure to call someone out when you think something is wrong. 

You also have a bad picker, that you need to fix. You picked bad with your last wife that cheated on you, that you never picked up on until she jumped ship and it is probably the same with your last business partner and your current wife. 

Why did you not lead with you last marriage, your business betrayal, and your current suspicions... 

Oh, I will tell you why, because you saw that your ex was cheating and you put your head in the sand, you say that your partner was going to screw you and you put your head in the sand, you know that your wife is cheating on you and you are putting your head in the sand. 

How close is that???? 

You see, what you SEE as abuse are people that are telling your the truth, people that do not want others to suffer the **** they have already suffered. 

You know what is going on in your life.

SO WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT??????


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## sokillme

BluesPower said:


> This tells me that you are naïve, too trusting, and too insecure to call someone out when you think something is wrong.
> 
> You also have a bad picker, that you need to fix. You picked bad with your last wife that cheated on you, that you never picked up on until she jumped ship and it is probably the same with your last business partner and your current wife.


Yep a good example would be this - from your first post.



> I have an amazing relationship with my new wife of close to 6 years now. This relationship is completely different for both of us compared to previous relationships and a previous marriage for both of us. From the beginning we have been determined to have complete honesty with each other regardless of the good, bad or ugly of a situation.


And yet you come on here and relay what happened a few years ago and the consensus from every single one of us is she is lying and something happened, if not full on infidelity. Shows how disconnected you are with the reality of what was going on in your life and relationships. Yes you know something is up but either subconsciously or probably willfully you choose to be passive and see your marriage as the paragraph above. This kind of thinking and more so behavior leads to people taking advantage of you. Hell that is the kind of easy mark they are looking for.

Most of us said we would have sat her down and got to the truth, some of us including me said they would have been like "nope out". It's not cause we are hard asses, it's because we just know from experience that a person who has so little respect for you and themselves really is a waste of time. They are just going to cause problems, you are going to end up on a message board with a bunch of strangers trying to figure out where the hell it all went wrong.

You want a good life the first sign of this nonsense, don't try to get to the bottom of it just "nope out". Period. Eventually you will end up with really loyal and trustworthy friends because you are weeding out the dirt like panning for gold. You won't have a lot, but the ones you do will be worth more then thousands.
For me most of my advice is to run away from these people not because I want relationships to break up but because again people who behave like your wife does a trap. The are like a emotional fungus that you can't get rid of that cause an irritating rash. 2 years, 2 YEARS! you have been suffering because of this trifling women. And you are going to continue to suffer. You really are better off alone then to be with someone like that. At least you will live in the truth.

Read that book. Go get some help. And ****ing take control of your life.

Or suffer. There are other choices, it's just a universal law like gravity.


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## DownByTheRiver

I hate to have to say this, but a lot of saleswomen and even salesmen are often expected to practically be pimped out to clients and new clients. It was that way decades ago and I'm sure it still is today when no one's looking. That doesn't mean she actually had sex with him, but it certainly may be that she is expected to act a certain way. If she's as attractive and sexy as you say, honestly, that's probably why she was hired in this position. 
I was mostly in business on the other end of it (I was the client), but they certainly threw "dates" at my male counterparts in the form of pretty saleswomen and more. When I was briefly (2 yrs) on the sales end later, my regional manager told me I was to keep in touch with the biggest client's buyer to the extent that I should know where he is every minute. I didn't do that, but that was the attitude. I didn't even try to do that. Because I'd been a buyer before, and no buyer likes that -- unless it involves sex, of course. 

If he even knows who Ginger Rogers is, he's probably way too old for your wife to actually be attracted to him! Jeez, I'm 67 and he sounds too old for me! This is likely an exploitive facet of her job that she likely does not relish, since you tell me she has ethics. 

The clothes. She was in Florida, a state famous for speedos and going braless. It's hot. She can't keep her jacket on. She might have thought she would so she skipped the bra, but then she couldn't stand it. Or, yes, she might have been dressing sexy to hook the new client. 

All that said about the things sometimes salespeople are expected to put up with, she spent an awfully lot of alone time with him, accepting dinner after dinner. If they were hammering out the details of some deal, I still don't think it would have taken that long. He probably does use his leverage of being a potential new client to get as many "dates" with your pretty saleswomen as possible would be my guess. 

So did she end up with his business? Or was this an exercise in futility? If she won him as a client, will he be HER client or will he be assigned a new account manager. Ask about it. See if anything even came of it. And you should even ask her, Does your company pressure you to 'make nice' with potential clients socially? I think that's a fair question. If she's honest, she'll answer it.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

Kamstel2 said:


> I think you already know the answer.


What he said 100 times. Take your blinders off.


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## sokillme

DownByTheRiver said:


> If he even knows who Ginger Rogers is, he's probably way too old for your wife to actually be attracted to him! Jeez, I'm 67 and he sounds too old for me! This is likely an exploitive facet of her job that she likely does not relish, since you tell me she has ethics.


Come now you're really not trying to make anyone believe a married person allowing themselves to be pimped out to clients have ethics.


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## ConanHub

Rob Panache said:


> Up front, this is long and probably way too detailed for anyone other than those who are suffering from insomnia! My apologies for that, however even if no one reads this, just writing it out served as some therapy for me. Also, as I read other posts I realize this is pretty tame, but still serious to me as I try to determine if my open and honest relationship is "real".
> 
> I have an amazing relationship with my new wife of close to 6 years now. This relationship is completely different for both of us compared to previous relationships and a previous marriage for both of us. From the beginning we have been determined to have complete honesty with each other regardless of the good, bad or ugly of a situation. She has shared difficult details of her past and shared things that have happened since we met that made me feel greatly confident of that openness and honesty; yet here I am!
> 
> I am trying to decide if something happened on a business trip that took place about 2 years ago. I had put the questions behind me until some photos turned up from a push of all our various device photos to the Amazon photo cloud service. It was enough to make me start digging and trying to determine if I am just letting my imagination get the best of me or if she is not quite as honest and open as I thought. I just want to make a determination one way or another, I just have this compelling need to know. I went back to old texts and pictures to try to piece this together.
> 
> My wife went on a business trip in California. We both travel for business and like to keep in touch via text during our travels. We also like to tease each other a bit about situations that normally occur during travel. Sophia is an extremely attractive and intelligent woman, and often gets hit on by men. She tells me when this happens, and we laugh about the situations. She is in a sales role for her company, and it is standard procedure for me to ask and receive a picture of how she is dressed for the day or dinner meetings she might have. At this meeting, she set up her company booth (working alone for the company at this conference) and was soon meeting with many physicians to talk about her product. During the first day of travel, setup and meetings she sent me several pictures of herself (she always looked very professional and very sexy at the same time), pictures of competitors products and booths, text discussions of who she was meeting and how they might be useful to her company, etc. There was a reception later the first day, she got back to her room at 1 AM and I did not receive any texts that I would normally get while she was out but wanting to stay connected to me. She does not drink much and is not a party type of person, she is quite serious by nature.
> 
> The next day she met a highly rated physician and successful international businessman that was a perfect fit for her company product and perhaps even an advisory board role for them. He invited her to lunch to discuss further. After a 2-hour lunch, she was practically gushing to me regarding his credentials and was excited that she might be landing a very prominent candidate for the company. There was another reception that night at 6 PM, I received one text saying things were going very well and that she “was bonding”. She texted at 1 AM that she was heading back to her room and would call, it took quite some time for her to call though. She described the physician as a “wonderful soul”, and that he invited her to dinner the next night.
> 
> The next day the physician stopped by her booth and said he had made reservations for 6 PM. She was still gushing about his credentials on that day, and to be fair, he would make a great addition to the company. They went to a nice place for dinner, she did not send me any pictures of herself before going to dinner (as she normally would) and only sent a Trip Advisor link to the restaurant they were going to. I was getting curious about this new friend and asked for a picture if she could without it being awkward. She did not send any, however later I found a picture he sent her of the two of them at the restaurant standing side by side, her nestled into him with his arm around her. Dinner was around 9 PM, no texts or pictures, only a text at 12:20 AM saying she was heading back to hotel and would call me. If my memory serves me correctly, there was a long delay and she finally called at 1:30 AM saying he wanted to have another drink with her at the hotel. There was a goodnight kiss and hug, because the next day she referenced the one she received as bigger and longer than the night before.
> 
> I received a sexy Good Morning Avatar the next morning, told me she had plans to have coffee with him at 10:30 AM. The company was planning for her to go to another similar conference in Florida in a couple of weeks since she had so much success at this one. The physician was going to be at that one also since it was near his hometown. He was leaving town that day, and they met again for a two-hour lunch where they had a glass of wine (she rarely drinks wine during the day). When I teased her regarding if she received a goodbye kiss (humor was my way of trying to find out what was happening) she replied by text saying “yes, big hug and kisses”, and that he was excited about her coming to Florida. I pressed her about the extent of the kisses, she just said bigger and longer than the other ones. I asked if this was open lip, she replied “NO”, and then no longer wanted to discuss it and left to take a walk, effectively closing the discussion.
> 
> I pushed back on the trip to Florida and we had a big argument by phone and text. I told her I was concerned not that she had so many meeting with him, but that she was meeting with him exclusively and that the lunches and dinners were 4-hour ordeals. Also, I asked why I never received any pictures of how she dressed for each of these outings with him, feeling that she was hiding something. Somehow, my teasing was to blame, and that I should keep my focus on our relationship vs. trying to build one that did not exist with someone else. The decision was made that she would go to the 3-day Florida meeting.
> 
> Florida, Day 1. Physician stopped by her booth first day to ask her out for a drink. Reception started at 5:30, they had drinks and dinner together at restaurant, she was back in room at 10:30 PM.
> 
> Day 2. We had another argument that morning, not about physician but about something trivial but she would not let it drop. He asked her out to dinner that night, drove her to EPCOT to one of the nicer restaurants there. They decided to stay for the fireworks and walk around the park together. Once again, she did not send me any pictures of what she was wearing to go out, it was a fancy restaurant and she likes to dress up when going out. She told me what she wore, and I remember being surprise that she dressed down for a nice restaurant. She wore a long sleeve linen shirt over a cami. I remember thinking maybe I’m making too much of all of this, if she is dressing down then it might just be my imagination. Later, I found pictures that he took of her outside the restaurant. It was as she described, but something about the picture didn’t seem right. Then as I looked closer, I realized that it is obvious she was braless and the cami was actually a sheer open lace-back one that she owns that is very sexy. With the temps in Orlando being very warm then, I now believe that is how she dressed for dinner but put on the linen shirt as a jacket and buttoned it up for the picture. She did not tell me about the pictures, saying she never had any, but these came over automatically from her phone during the photo download. Also, there is a look on her face for these 3 photos that made me wonder. I sent the picture to a woman friend of mine who knows us both and asked her what she saw in the picture giving her no context. Her first reply was: “Wow, did you both just make love??”.
> 
> Day 3. She was invited by him to a special physician only reception, she was dressed to kill (finally sent a picture). 5 PM reception, they walked to dinner at 7. There was live music, she had a martini (once or twice a year will she drink anything but wine). I asked if they danced, she said not really…only in a group. Later I found texts by him and her complimenting each other on their dancing, and him saying it is easy to look good dancing when you have Ginger Rogers in your arms. Plus, there was a two-hour gap in messages when the dancing would have taken place. She was back in her room at 11 PM. Somewhere in the evening she told him she was happily married, he said then needed to clone her so that he could have one for himself.
> 
> Day of departure, he texted to ask her to go to lunch before he left. She agreed, even though she knew this was really causing problems between us. After their lunch he drove home, but on the way, he recorded himself singing a love song to her in Spanish (his native language). He also sent other music clips to her of his favorite Spanish artists, pictures from world travels, etc.
> 
> So, if this was anyone else, I would probably have no question. Having an affair would go against all of her principles and her character. We discussed this at length, with her ‘convincing’ me that nothing happened. That yes, he must have developed feelings for her, but it was all professional. She also said, the meetings were 85% business and 15% personal. My accounting shows they probably spent about 40 hrs together between the two conferences, so that does not ring true to me.
> 
> Please, no abuse for how I handled this. I beat myself up plenty and do not need any help! I would like to hear if this is obvious or not to others who have read my account (once you wake up, of course).


Your wife dated another man right in front of you.

Bad call by her and by you for putting up with it.

I would have divorced her on the spot because my wife only gets to date me but to each their own.

There is enough in your post to indicate crossing healthy boundaries and definite infidelity. The only question is how far did their dating go?

Why do you put up with her cheating and blatant disrespect for you?


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## Beach123

It’s odd that you described her as a great wife...with the marriage being good.

it’s anything but good. She cheated and gave you an altered play by play. She doesn’t sleep with you and you no longer feel close to her.

she is LONGING for her lover! Sheez, why are YOU willing to close your eyes to the reality?

it’s NOT a good marriage! She is a crappy wife!


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## RandomDude

@Rob Panache 

We are patiently awaiting an update.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

I think he is living in denial. Glaringly obvious to me


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## RandomDude

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> I think he is living in denial. Glaringly obvious to me


Another one bites the dust?

Let's hope not, I actually took the time to read this guy's story... bah!


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## Rob Panache

I have read every post, have considered all responses carefully, have been digging and trolling as suggested. I appreciate all the time and effort everyone has taken, there has been some good insights and opinions, which gave me what I posted for in the first place. I have that now and this will take me a little bit of time to prepare and unravel before I confront her. I have a business that I'm trying to run and two teenage kids to boot, so life is a bit busy and complicated. 

'OutofRetirement' gave me some good insights into CSA behaviors, in fact, something that I found today in old emails perhaps fits the CSA profile mentioned. I dug into some old archived PST files today. There was a man (a doctor, go figure) she worked with before we met who I knew about, but according to her he like her but she had no interest in him. In the PST I found emails and pictures that painted a different story. Under the guise of pulling old pictures of our history together to put with the rest of our pictures on Amazon cloud, I needed her to give me a password for a protected PST. She could not figure it out, but happened to see other emails and pictures from non-protected PST's on m computer and opened one. It had a cozy but fairly innocent picture of the two of them together. She quickly said "nothing every happened between us", even though I never asked. I then clicked on the thumbnail of another picture that I knew was more telling, them sitting in a booth in a deep embrace and kiss. She quickly said, "oh, he surprised me with that kiss, I didn't want it and pushed him away". Again, I never asked and even said that was all before us, it shouldn't matter. She stuck to her story even though it would be hard to explain how a very deep kiss with her eyes closed that happened by surprised, just so happened to be captured by a camera and was found in her email! So, we were not a couple when this happened, but why would she feel the need to lie about that to me? I found emails for a few weeks where he would routinely call her his 'butterbean' and a B&B reservation made for a work conference for them (two different rooms) where she used a false name and address. So, it was obviously a sexual relationship. Why hide that? It should have no bearing on us since we were not together (however the timing was fairly close to when we first met). Is this a trend of work related trysts that she just automatically lies about and hides? I'm still seeking to understand. I know some of you will automatically say "wake up and smell the coffee", I'm not in denial, I'm just trying to understand this better.


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## Thumos

I think you need to separate what came before with what happened once she allegedly committed to monogamy with you.


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## Rob Panache

I agree to some extent, however I guess I'm wondering if this is a trend and also her need/ability to lie about something that to me was obvious was odd especially when there was no need to lie about it. She does not need to defend any relationships she had before me, but since we committed to a completely open relationship and honesty with each other I have to ask why would you lie about this.


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## manfromlamancha

I agree that you need to get to the bottom of why she lies for even smaller things.


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## Mr.Married

Rob Panache said:


> I agree to some extent, however I guess I'm wondering if this is a trend and also her need/ability to lie about something that to me was obvious was odd especially when there was no need to lie about it. She does not need to defend any relationships she had before me, but since we committed to a completely open relationship and honesty with each other I have to ask why would you lie about this.


Because she wants to control the narrative of men around her.

Oddly enough I wonder who has more mental anguish... you or her ?

She’s cunning


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## RandomDude

Rob Panache said:


> I have read every post, have considered all responses carefully, have been digging and trolling as suggested. I appreciate all the time and effort everyone has taken, there has been some good insights and opinions, which gave me what I posted for in the first place. I have that now and this will take me a little bit of time to prepare and unravel before I confront her. I have a business that I'm trying to run and two teenage kids to boot, so life is a bit busy and complicated.


Glad you are still in this!



> 'OutofRetirement' gave me some good insights into CSA behaviors, in fact, something that I found today in old emails perhaps fits the CSA profile mentioned. I dug into some old archived PST files today. There was a man (a doctor, go figure) she worked with before we met who I knew about, but according to her he like her but she had no interest in him. In the PST I found emails and pictures that painted a different story. Under the guise of pulling old pictures of our history together to put with the rest of our pictures on Amazon cloud, I needed her to give me a password for a protected PST. She could not figure it out, but happened to see other emails and pictures from non-protected PST's on m computer and opened one. *It had a cozy but fairly innocent picture of the two of them together. She quickly said "nothing every happened between us", even though I never asked. I then clicked on the thumbnail of another picture that I knew was more telling, them sitting in a booth in a deep embrace and kiss. She quickly said, "oh, he surprised me with that kiss, I didn't want it and pushed him away". Again, I never asked and even said that was all before us, it shouldn't matter. She stuck to her story even though it would be hard to explain how a very deep kiss with her eyes closed that happened by surprised, just so happened to be captured by a camera and was found in her email! So, we were not a couple when this happened, but why would she feel the need to lie about that to me?* I found emails for a few weeks where he would routinely call her his 'butterbean' and a *B&B reservation made for a work conference for them (two different rooms) where she used a false name and address. So, it was obviously a sexual relationship. Why hide that? * It should have no bearing on us since we were not together (however the timing was fairly close to when we first met). * Is this a trend of work related trysts that she just automatically lies about and hides? I'm still seeking to understand. I know some of you will automatically say "wake up and smell the coffee", I'm not in denial, I'm just trying to understand this better.*


Just to get this straight, the timeline for this romp was before your relationship but after you met her? However you only recently confronted her about it after finding out new information - correct?
It sure looks like she's been lying even before marriage, and even though you weren't together during that romp there are many possible reasons why she would have lied to you, though I'll put my money on simply attempting to convince you that she wasn't a hoe. Many women do this, even if for 'innocent' reasons (due to cultural ****-shaming for instance). It doesn't excuse it, and furthermore, it surely incriminates her when it comes to your original suspicions.

As you said: "*She stuck to her story even though it would be hard to explain how a very deep kiss with her eyes closed that happened by surprised, just so happened to be captured by a camera and was found in her email!"*
I'm glad you are honest with yourself about what this blatantly is.

I don't see why you need to understand her further, from what you have already mentioned she fits the type who indeed, understands transparency not for honesty but how to deceive using it - how to avoid suspicions by painting pictures in your mind so that she can envelop you in a fog of her choosing. She has used this to enjoy her lifestyle of slutting around during conferences that she has not sacrificed when it came to marriage, furthermore I highly doubt this is the extent of her deceptions. There's not much to understand, she is what she is, sadly alot of people are. They just... are. No excuses for them, you either decide whether you wish to spend the rest of your life with someone who you can never trust, or move on with your life.

I believe you have more than enough information to add two and two together. Your next steps should be to seek legal advice, the laws in your country/state/etc. Do you have fault or no fault divorce etc? I know you still wish to take the time to digest all this, but knowing your legal footing will give you a sense of empowerment and help you see things even clearer than you are seeing now.


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## BluesPower

Rob Panache said:


> I agree to some extent, however I guess I'm wondering if this is a trend and also her need/ability to lie about something that to me was obvious was odd especially when there was no need to lie about it. She does not need to defend any relationships she had before me, but since we committed to a completely open relationship and honesty with each other I have to ask why would you lie about this.


No guys this is super simple... 

She is lying about her past behavior, ie I believe cheating on her last husband and conferences with rich doctors, because she does not want YOU to put 2 and 2 together.

She is hiding in now because she is still doing it.

I mean, Ron, you are not that stupid. You write well, and you are articulate so it is obvious that you are not a stupid person.

A weak person, for sure, because you have allowed this to continue and you have not done anything about it. 

You need to make her take a poly and if she refuses then divorce her. 

But I don't really think you will do that..


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## rugswept

She's a liar and a cheater.
You're in denial, love her deeply and are trying to find ways to see it didn't happen.

With the evidence you have already indicated you know what happened and are trying to intellectualize it all away.
Lying is super easy and smooth, especially for a sales person. Hiding behavior changes, body language and appearance is much harder. 

Your woman friend saw one of the pics and wondered if you had just sex with her. Why do you think she looked that way?

There are many instances of VERY close contact, kissing, snuggling, and, oh, "he snuck up on me on that one", and magically a camera just happened to be there.

After the first encounter, they then met at the Epcot related area. What was that for: contract extensions?
There were extensions there, alright, but it had nothing to do with the product advertised at the booth.

That guy is obviously a very smooth, really smart, really rich playboy who picks off lookers of his choice, works on them with stuff they don't see otherwise and does them any way that he wants. Then there's a huge pic stream of the whole thing. This guy lives this pick up the hottie, wine, dine, feel, kiss, bed and everything else he had in mind and then moves on to the next one. 

That's what happened here and why are we going on and on that it was anything other than that.

You love her, want her, are trying to find CSA and other excuses and denials. Her behavior is different, there's incriminating everything. It's your choice to stay with her. But you already know and just don't want to admit it.

I lived a story something similar to this except it was for over a year, and the guy wasn't some hot millionaire schmoozer who goes through a dozen women a year who are just like your WW, in appearance and in heart.
Your WW does compartmentalize quite well. Good Luck.


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## Gabriel

The polygraph is really the only path that I see makes any sense. Quit guessing. It's a waste of time.

Your wife is an extraordinarily hot sexy salesperson, who gets hit on constantly, and travels out of town for business regularly. She's already got divorced once, and has unfortunate baggage. The odds of her being 100% faithful are almost zero. 

She's also very untrustworthy, as she habitually lies. Now she's sleeping in the other room a chunk of the time - what is it 50% of the time? More? Less? Sorry, but "I don't want to keep you awake" is utter BS. As Bandit said, that is not a normal marriage.

I've never wanted a 10/10 wife in the looks department who is a constant target for other males. This is why. Rob - you know what you have here - a 10 wife that travels for business and has issues. You can enjoy the 10 looks for yourself and understand she's likely shared some of that with a few others (and will probably do it again), or you can bail out of this.


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## OutofRetirement

Rob Panache said:


> I agree to some extent, however I guess I'm wondering if this is a trend and also her need/ability to lie about something that to me was obvious was odd especially when* there was no need to lie about it*. She does not need to defend any relationships she had before me, but since we committed to a completely open relationship and honesty with each other I have to ask why would you lie about this.


Possibly a CSA issue. That would be my first guess. Of course she doesn't *need* to lie. She does it to protect herself. Telling the truth about sex has not worked out for her and she learned to never tell the truth about it to people she cared about. She intentionally does this. She CAN tell the truth. It is not unconscious to lie. It is a conscious decision. She does it willingly. All of us have issues from our childhood, some good some bad, and influences are decisions and behaviors now. If your father was an alcoholic, you may have strong influences around your behaviors related to alcohol. It is not that you need to drink or need to abstain, but you have a strong feeliing to do one or the other, and you have to work a little harder to go against your inner childhood feelings. Although she willingly deceives you about sex with others, she probably doesn't relate that directly to her CSA. It may not be due to CSA. She believes those are separate. And they may in fact be separate. But frequently CSA victims do those behaviors, so it is assumed that the two behaviors are related.

Second guess as to lie about pre-marriage doctor, that relationship continued after she started with you.

Third guess as to lie about pre-marriage doctor, the similarities of pre-relationship doctor and recent doctor is too similar and she doesn't want you to make those comparisons.

It could be all three. It could be something else. She is the only one who knows, and you will never be able to be sure it is truth, but generally a truth makes sense, and a lie does not make sense in one or more aspects.

Rob, your wife says she sat in a hotel with a strange man for one hour, the whole time with him convincing her to go to his hotel room, and her saying no. If that is true, she obviously has deep issues of not being able to say no to men. If that is false, that is a really weird lie about why she couldn't respond to your text and I couldn't even begin to guess what that means.

There have been many other similar oddities. All related to her not being able to say no. I somewhat understand trust blindness as I believe all betrayed can see what seems obvious signs after finding the truth, but easily overlooked the red flags before because of blind trust. But your red flags are really obvious to any reasonable person.

As far as her affair or not affair with the doctor, I have seen men and women string people along to get what they wanted with a business deal. That is NOT what your wife is saying. She is not saying she purposely led him on so she could make the deal. If I am correct, she is saying she went with him to get his business, but she did NOT lead him on in any way, and it was ALL professional. Obviously that is a lie. Either she was having an affair, or she was leading him on, because the evidence you have already shows that it was NOT all professional. Another possibilty, but extremely unlikely, she believes that those behaviors are professional behaviors - of him kissing her initially on lips closed and then "longer deeper" the second time, going on romantic dates, her melting into him during a picture together.


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## OutofRetirement

Rob, people do not do illogical things. It may seem illogical to you, to me, to reasonable people around the world - but it is logical to the one doing it. If you are delusional and have jumbled thoughts and hallucinations and you believe big insects are circling your head, so your arms are flailing to swat away the flies, and when people ask you, you are unable to explain it properly because your mind is clouded - those behavior will look illogical to everyone but you. It will be logical to you.

Your wife is not delusional and does not have jumbled thoughts. So it will be much easier to find out why she does things that may seem illogical to you. Everything she does, every lie, has a reason that makes sense to her. It could be very complicated reasons which you would never be able to even guess at. But that is rarely the case in life. Most times, it is very straight-forward reasons. Why did she do the things she did with the good doctor? Because she was getting something out of it. What was she getting out of it? It was either validation or business or sex or emotional or any or all of those. Why did she tell you it was all professional when you know it wasn't? She lied to you because she felt that would hurt her in some way, she felt you would react badly to the truth and somehow she would be in a lesser situation. She made a decision, lying will help her situation more than telling the truth would. She is wrong, the lying made it worse for her because now you don't trust her on top of you suspecting her being a cheater. But she believes it would be better to lie. That may be illogical to you. It is her logic she is using, not yours. You have to be in her head as best as you can to understand her decisions, her words and actions.


----------



## bandit.45

Blondilocks said:


> You and your wife need to have a little conversation regarding her work wardrobe. Just in case you're not up to speed: women don't wear see-through clothing to work or at work events. Unless, they're offering more than the company's products.


Blondi would a woman even pack such skimpy clothing if she wasn't intent on doing some seducing? Sounds like she planned this in advance. Planned to wine and dine and possibly bed this Dr. to get him on board.


----------



## BluesPower

bandit.45 said:


> Blondi would a woman even pack such skimpy clothing if she wasn't intent on doing some seducing? Sounds like she planned this in advance. Planned to wine and dine and possibly bed this Dr. to get him on board.


Of course this is totally correct. I had not even gone there. 

I was just hoping we could get him to acknowledge that for sure she cheated on him 2 years ago. 

More likely, she has been cheating on him most of their so called "Marriage". 

But he will not admit that he even sees what everyone else saw from the first post.


----------



## bandit.45

Rob Panache said:


> I have read every post, have considered all responses carefully, have been digging and trolling as suggested. I appreciate all the time and effort everyone has taken, there has been some good insights and opinions, which gave me what I posted for in the first place. I have that now and this will take me a little bit of time to prepare and unravel before I confront her. I have a business that I'm trying to run and two teenage kids to boot, so life is a bit busy and complicated.
> 
> 'OutofRetirement' gave me some good insights into CSA behaviors, in fact, something that I found today in old emails perhaps fits the CSA profile mentioned. I dug into some old archived PST files today. There was a man (a doctor, go figure) she worked with before we met who I knew about, but according to her he like her but she had no interest in him. In the PST I found emails and pictures that painted a different story. Under the guise of pulling old pictures of our history together to put with the rest of our pictures on Amazon cloud, I needed her to give me a password for a protected PST. She could not figure it out, but happened to see other emails and pictures from non-protected PST's on m computer and opened one. It had a cozy but fairly innocent picture of the two of them together. She quickly said "nothing every happened between us", even though I never asked. I then clicked on the thumbnail of another picture that I knew was more telling, them sitting in a booth in a deep embrace and kiss. She quickly said, "oh, he surprised me with that kiss, I didn't want it and pushed him away". Again, I never asked and even said that was all before us, it shouldn't matter. She stuck to her story even though it would be hard to explain how a very deep kiss with her eyes closed that happened by surprised, just so happened to be captured by a camera and was found in her email! So, we were not a couple when this happened, but why would she feel the need to lie about that to me? I found emails for a few weeks where he would routinely call her his 'butterbean' and a B&B reservation made for a work conference for them (two different rooms) where she used a false name and address. So, it was obviously a sexual relationship. Why hide that? It should have no bearing on us since we were not together (however the timing was fairly close to when we first met). Is this a trend of work related trysts that she just automatically lies about and hides? I'm still seeking to understand. I know some of you will automatically say "wake up and smell the coffee", I'm not in denial, I'm just trying to understand this better.


You say that the things she did with doctors prior to your relationship with her have no bearing. But I disagree. They have bearing because they show an ongoing pattern of behavior. Your wife has a thing for doctors, or... she has been long adept at using her charms and body to seal deals with them. There is no reason to assume she is not doing so nowadays.


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## ABHale

The thing is, you will never understand why. She might not even know why she does it.


----------



## bandit.45

Was this skimpy see-through cocktail dress something your wife bought to wear for you, or is it one you never saw before?


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## BluesPower

bandit.45 said:


> Was this skimpy see-through cocktail dress something your wife bought to wear for you, or is it one you never saw before?


Does not really matter, because a married woman does not take cloths to a conference that she is going to date her latest conquest with.

Well, a real married woman does not do that. A woman that is using her H for a little extra life style, they do that.

You know like OP's wife. She gets to play hot wife while she is traveling and he does not even get to play.

He just looks after the house...


----------



## bandit.45

BluesPower said:


> Does not really matter, because a married woman does not take cloths to a conference that she is going to date her latest conquest with.
> 
> Well, a real married woman does not do that. A woman that is using her H for a little extra life style, they do that.
> 
> You know like OP's wife. She gets to play hot wife while she is traveling and he does not even get to play.
> 
> He just looks after the house...


I think it matters, because a woman generally dresses sexy to please herself first, with the secondary perk of pleasing her husband, and the third perk of gaining affirmation from coveting eyes in public. If he had never seen this particular dress before, it is because she bought it specifically to seduce this doctor, or she was hiding it and , as you say, wearing it whenever she was engaging in her "lifestyle" at conferences. The OP may be in an open marriage that he never agreed to.


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## Gabriel

CSA is just super unfortunate, and yes, would only add to the probability of infidelity, sadly. 

CSA creates major self-esteem problems, even in 10/10 looking people. People with low self esteem, whether it's well hidden or not, crave validation and admiration. And will sometimes do improper things when seduced by it.


----------



## BluesPower

bandit.45 said:


> I think it matters, because a woman generally dresses sexy to please herself first, with the secondary perk of pleasing her husband, and the third perk of gaining affirmation from coveting eyes in public. If he had never seen this particular dress before, it is because she bought it specifically to seduce this doctor, or she was hiding it and , as you say, wearing it whenever she was engaging in her "lifestyle" at conferences. The OP may be in an open marriage that he never agreed to.


She was not dressing for herself, I don't believe that for a second.

This kind of woman picked that dress because she planned to find a BF, or because she was meeting her BF at the conference.

If my Fiancé picked a sexy dress to travel with, esp if I had not seen it, game over.

I don't think any of this matters for OP, he is in such denial he could walk in on them and she would have a good excuse. And he would believe it...


----------



## bandit.45

Be nice Blues.


----------



## Rob Panache

Wow, this board is really active and I'm doing my best to keep up with all the comments coming in. It wasn't a cocktail dress, but a sexy cami that she bought for me/us. To be fair, if you remember the original text, the picture I saw only showed the cami under a linen shirt. Through some detective work I figured out which cami it was and also that she appeared (quite confident in this) that she was without a bra. Now, she may have kept the linen shirt on through the whole evening, but seemed unlikely to me for the fancy restaurant and the warm climate she was in, but she did have it on when the picture was taken.


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## sokillme

I think the point is has been beaten to death. The question is what are your next steps?


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## Rob Panache

I will confront her with this at the time that is best for me and my kids. I agree, I do not think anything new will come out of further discussion. I appreciate most all of the comments and the time many of you took to read through all of this and weigh in.


----------



## sokillme

Rob Panache said:


> I will confront her with this at the time that is best for me and my kids. I agree, I do not think anything new will come out of further discussion. I appreciate most all of the comments and the time many of you took to read through all of this and weigh in.


And when will that time be when they are grown up?

sigh...

What was the purpose of this post?


----------



## mickybill

Sounds like she was pretty "open" giving you the details of the meetup and appointments and dates with the "whale" she was trying to land. Those missing hours and dates after dinner seem to add up to he was playing the sexy sales rep to see how far she'd go to close the sale...probably what he does at every event. It's a game. He probably has a good average of scoring, in any event he enjoys the chase. How did she respond is the obvious question...because she was also playing him, maybe with the intention of sex or maybe just going up that line with a promise of more if he got on board.... But by 1:30 am it is most likely sex
The question is how will your wife explain spending about 25 hours with him over the few days and getting back to "her room" at 1:30am after dinner and drinks then meeting up the next AM, was he the only big fish she was looking to interest in her company?

FWIW when my XW was packing for a trip with her HS robotics team , I saw nice shoes and the LBD and said you are bringing that to robotics competition. Without missing a beat she said the teachers liked to dress up on the last night for a dinner... I stupidly believed that the 5 teachers would leave the kid unchaperoned and go to fancy dinner. What a dope I was.


----------



## RandomDude

Rob Panache said:


> I will confront her with this at the time that is best for me and my kids. I agree, I do not think anything new will come out of further discussion. I appreciate most all of the comments and the time many of you took to read through all of this and weigh in.


Good luck, hope you keep to your word for your own sake. Make it sooner rather than later. Be strong.

I strongly advise consulting legal advice prior to confronting her by the way. You need to know your options and where you stand.


----------



## OutofRetirement

My experience is that there never is a good time. Someday never comes. My experience is that this will affect you and your relationship more than you think. You also will start seeing more things. It will bother you more. Resentment will settle in. Your wife will see it but not know why for sure. You stuffing it in will manifest in you letting stuff out in other areas. She'll start to change because of you changing. Eventually this will turn into a self-fulfilling prophecy of how your marriage will be. So take your time, and hurry up. Waiting almost never improves any outcome.


----------



## Gabriel

What advice were you looking for? Did you get it? Seems you shared your situation, and a bunch of us reacted to it. But not sure what this confrontation will be, and when you are planning on doing it. This group can help you tremendously if you allow it.

You don't even have kids with her, right? They are your kids from a prior marriage. So not sure what is causing you to wait until the perfect moment.

Not sure what confrontation is going to get you. We all know she will just tell you the same story. Then what?

All I see here is a decision for you to make given the information you have, and the opinions we've shared. Care to share where your head is at?


----------



## Beach123

Mr.Married said:


> Because she wants to control the narrative of men around her.
> 
> Oddly enough I wonder who has more mental anguish... you or her ?
> 
> She’s cunning


Yep, and based on the evidence you’ve looked at recently - she is just a very consistent liar.


----------



## SunCMars

> bandit.45 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Blondi would a woman even pack such skimpy clothing if she wasn't intent on doing some seducing? Sounds like she planned this in advance. Planned to wine and dine and possibly bed this Dr. to get him on board.
Click to expand...


----------



## SunCMars

It is more than this...
It is.

She is basically, a hopeful and burgeoning married saleslady who goes to conferences. She does not lead an exciting life the rest of the time, the rest of the story.

She does not get wined and dined and taken to very nice places by wealthy and generous (attractive men).

No, she is is a wife to an average guy, and she lives an average life. She is bored at home, and is bored and depressed with her life style and her husband.

She is bored and depressed, except when she goes to conferences and plays the beautiful woman who enjoys the company of generous and romantic men.

It is so easy to see and accept.

Once you have tasted the best wines and food, the rest seems bland.
Once you have been feted, wine and dined and romantically swept off your feet you are hooked..

The love making from new conquests is so much sweeter.....in her mind.


----------



## Wolfman1968

SunCMars said:


> It is more than this...
> It is.
> 
> She is basically, a hopeful and burgeoning married saleslady who goes to conferences. She does not lead an exciting life the rest of the time, the rest of the story.
> 
> She does not get wined and dined and taken to very nice places by wealthy and generous (attractive men).
> 
> No, she is is a wife to an average guy, and she lives an average life. She is bored at home, and is bored and depressed with her life style and her husband.
> 
> She is bored and depressed, except when she goes to conferences and plays the beautiful woman who enjoys the company of generous and romantic men.
> 
> It is so easy to see and accept.
> 
> Once you have tasted the best wines and food, the rest seems bland.
> Once you have been feted, wine and dined and romantically swept off your feet you are hooked..
> 
> The love making from new conquests is so much sweeter.....in her mind.


Even when your posts are prose, they have a poetic style to them.


----------



## Chaparral

You were asked 


Rob Panache said:


> Up front, this is long and probably way too detailed for anyone other than those who are suffering from insomnia! My apologies for that, however even if no one reads this, just writing it out served as some therapy for me. Also, as I read other posts I realize this is pretty tame, but still serious to me as I try to determine if my open and honest relationship is "real".
> 
> I have an amazing relationship with my new wife of close to 6 years now. This relationship is completely different for both of us compared to previous relationships and a previous marriage for both of us. From the beginning we have been determined to have complete honesty with each other regardless of the good, bad or ugly of a situation. She has shared difficult details of her past and shared things that have happened since we met that made me feel greatly confident of that openness and honesty; yet here I am!
> 
> I am trying to decide if something happened on a business trip that took place about 2 years ago. I had put the questions behind me until some photos turned up from a push of all our various device photos to the Amazon photo cloud service. It was enough to make me start digging and trying to determine if I am just letting my imagination get the best of me or if she is not quite as honest and open as I thought. I just want to make a determination one way or another, I just have this compelling need to know. I went back to old texts and pictures to try to piece this together.
> 
> My wife went on a business trip in California. We both travel for business and like to keep in touch via text during our travels. We also like to tease each other a bit about situations that normally occur during travel. Sophia is an extremely attractive and intelligent woman, and often gets hit on by men. She tells me when this happens, and we laugh about the situations. She is in a sales role for her company, and it is standard procedure for me to ask and receive a picture of how she is dressed for the day or dinner meetings she might have. At this meeting, she set up her company booth (working alone for the company at this conference) and was soon meeting with many physicians to talk about her product. During the first day of travel, setup and meetings she sent me several pictures of herself (she always looked very professional and very sexy at the same time), pictures of competitors products and booths, text discussions of who she was meeting and how they might be useful to her company, etc. There was a reception later the first day, she got back to her room at 1 AM and I did not receive any texts that I would normally get while she was out but wanting to stay connected to me. She does not drink much and is not a party type of person, she is quite serious by nature.
> 
> The next day she met a highly rated physician and successful international businessman that was a perfect fit for her company product and perhaps even an advisory board role for them. He invited her to lunch to discuss further. After a 2-hour lunch, she was practically gushing to me regarding his credentials and was excited that she might be landing a very prominent candidate for the company. There was another reception that night at 6 PM, I received one text saying things were going very well and that she “was bonding”. She texted at 1 AM that she was heading back to her room and would call, it took quite some time for her to call though. She described the physician as a “wonderful soul”, and that he invited her to dinner the next night.
> 
> The next day the physician stopped by her booth and said he had made reservations for 6 PM. She was still gushing about his credentials on that day, and to be fair, he would make a great addition to the company. They went to a nice place for dinner, she did not send me any pictures of herself before going to dinner (as she normally would) and only sent a Trip Advisor link to the restaurant they were going to. I was getting curious about this new friend and asked for a picture if she could without it being awkward. She did not send any, however later I found a picture he sent her of the two of them at the restaurant standing side by side, her nestled into him with his arm around her. Dinner was around 9 PM, no texts or pictures, only a text at 12:20 AM saying she was heading back to hotel and would call me. If my memory serves me correctly, there was a long delay and she finally called at 1:30 AM saying he wanted to have another drink with her at the hotel. There was a goodnight kiss and hug, because the next day she referenced the one she received as bigger and longer than the night before.
> 
> I received a sexy Good Morning Avatar the next morning, told me she had plans to have coffee with him at 10:30 AM. The company was planning for her to go to another similar conference in Florida in a couple of weeks since she had so much success at this one. The physician was going to be at that one also since it was near his hometown. He was leaving town that day, and they met again for a two-hour lunch where they had a glass of wine (she rarely drinks wine during the day). When I teased her regarding if she received a goodbye kiss (humor was my way of trying to find out what was happening) she replied by text saying “yes, big hug and kisses”, and that he was excited about her coming to Florida. I pressed her about the extent of the kisses, she just said bigger and longer than the other ones. I asked if this was open lip, she replied “NO”, and then no longer wanted to discuss it and left to take a walk, effectively closing the discussion.
> 
> I pushed back on the trip to Florida and we had a big argument by phone and text. I told her I was concerned not that she had so many meeting with him, but that she was meeting with him exclusively and that the lunches and dinners were 4-hour ordeals. Also, I asked why I never received any pictures of how she dressed for each of these outings with him, feeling that she was hiding something. Somehow, my teasing was to blame, and that I should keep my focus on our relationship vs. trying to build one that did not exist with someone else. The decision was made that she would go to the 3-day Florida meeting.
> 
> Florida, Day 1. Physician stopped by her booth first day to ask her out for a drink. Reception started at 5:30, they had drinks and dinner together at restaurant, she was back in room at 10:30 PM.
> 
> Day 2. We had another argument that morning, not about physician but about something trivial but she would not let it drop. He asked her out to dinner that night, drove her to EPCOT to one of the nicer restaurants there. They decided to stay for the fireworks and walk around the park together. Once again, she did not send me any pictures of what she was wearing to go out, it was a fancy restaurant and she likes to dress up when going out. She told me what she wore, and I remember being surprise that she dressed down for a nice restaurant. She wore a long sleeve linen shirt over a cami. I remember thinking maybe I’m making too much of all of this, if she is dressing down then it might just be my imagination. Later, I found pictures that he took of her outside the restaurant. It was as she described, but something about the picture didn’t seem right. Then as I looked closer, I realized that it is obvious she was braless and the cami was actually a sheer open lace-back one that she owns that is very sexy. With the temps in Orlando being very warm then, I now believe that is how she dressed for dinner but put on the linen shirt as a jacket and buttoned it up for the picture. She did not tell me about the pictures, saying she never had any, but these came over automatically from her phone during the photo download. Also, there is a look on her face for these 3 photos that made me wonder. I sent the picture to a woman friend of mine who knows us both and asked her what she saw in the picture giving her no context. Her first reply was: “Wow, did you both just make love??”.
> 
> Day 3. She was invited by him to a special physician only reception, she was dressed to kill (finally sent a picture). 5 PM reception, they walked to dinner at 7. There was live music, she had a martini (once or twice a year will she drink anything but wine). I asked if they danced, she said not really…only in a group. Later I found texts by him and her complimenting each other on their dancing, and him saying it is easy to look good dancing when you have Ginger Rogers in your arms. Plus, there was a two-hour gap in messages when the dancing would have taken place. She was back in her room at 11 PM. Somewhere in the evening she told him she was happily married, he said then needed to clone her so that he could have one for himself.
> 
> Day of departure, he texted to ask her to go to lunch before he left. She agreed, even though she knew this was really causing problems between us. After their lunch he drove home, but on the way, he recorded himself singing a love song to her in Spanish (his native language). He also sent other music clips to her of his favorite Spanish artists, pictures from world travels, etc.
> 
> So, if this was anyone else, I would probably have no question. Having an affair would go against all of her principles and her character. We discussed this at length, with her ‘convincing’ me that nothing happened. That yes, he must have developed feelings for her, but it was all professional. She also said, the meetings were 85% business and 15% personal. My accounting shows they probably spent about 40 hrs together between the two conferences, so that does not ring true to me.
> 
> Please, no abuse for how I handled this. I beat myself up plenty and do not need any help! I would like to hear if this is obvious or not to others who have read my account (once you wake up, of course).


You were asked how your sex life was . More importantly, how has it changed over the course of your marriage?

Is your wife still in this same job? Is this the only time you have been questioning her behavior with other men.

Has she had counseling for her CSA? I would not jump to the cheating conclusions with out more evidence. I certainly can see why you would come to that conclusion. The reason it isimportant to know about your sex life is that it rarely stays the same when a wife has an affair. It generally will slow way down but in some it may actually increase.


----------



## Andy1001

This boils down very simply. She was flirting with men, going on dates and even meeting them for breakfast *with the full knowledge of her husband. *
She doesn’t believe she was cheating because he apparently was okay with her behavior. 
If occasionally things went a bit too far well, **** happens.
As things stand she doesn’t give a damn about him and makes this blatantly clear when she won’t even share a bedroom with him.
Op, is your wife out of your league looks wise? Do you think you’d never find a woman as hot as her again. Life as plan B is not a good place to be.


----------



## RandomDude

> I've never wanted a 10/10 wife in the looks department who is a constant target for other males. This is why.





> Op, is your wife out of your league looks wise? Do you think you’d never find a woman as hot as her again. Life as plan B is not a good place to be.


Argh, been biting my tongue with this but now I have to say it. You CAN have a 10/10 wife who is a constant target for other males and who is extremely loyal, loving, and understands both the boundaries and sacrifices required to maintain a healthy and lasting relationship.

You just have to picky, be patient, be strong with your own boundaries and expectations and expect the same in return. Find those who know their worth and don't need others to validate them, the cream of the crop. And yes, there are such women of these calibre who with the world at their fingertips they want only one man who will love and cherish them.


----------



## heartsbeating

Rob Panache said:


> There was a goodnight kiss and hug, because the next day she referenced the one she received as bigger and longer than the night before.


WTF ...along with the rest of these shenanigans.


----------



## heartsbeating

SunCMars said:


> ...except when she goes to conferences and *plays* the beautiful woman who enjoys the company of generous and romantic men.


----------



## heartsbeating

Andy1001 said:


> This boils down very simply. She was flirting with men, going on dates and even meeting them for breakfast *with the full knowledge of her husband. *


Yep.


----------



## TDSC60

When you said she referred to the good doctor as a "wonderful soul", that more than anything shows that she was/is emotionally (and probably romantically) involved with him.

No professional salesperson refers to a potential client as a "wonderful soul" if that's all they are...a potential client.


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## SunCMars

You have some choices..

a) Divorce her, then find a loyal and kind, an average gal.
And, do not permit her any dalliances, from the beginning, up front or behind the scenes.
Never, ever.

b) Your beautiful wife, wait her out, age her out. Age and wrinkles will work to your favor, less your flavor.
Hmm.

Adore her from afar, as is being done, presently, just out of your loving arm's reach.

Treat her well enough, such that..... _while she may stray_, the naughty girl returns, at last, to home.
Then, rub her shoulders, her back and her feet, and hope she lets you rub and kiss, God, those other places, those shared with (other men) places....more.

Overfeed her, a new plumper her may stay closer to your dreams.
Stay closer, stray, no Sir. no more!

We wish you luck and some measure of pleasure, of happiness.
We hope your wife tires of cologned Gnatty Men and well heeled, those scent driven, over rated, blue bar flies.

We hope your wife's butterfly wings tire of flitting and flying into that fire of wantonness.
Happiness, at last, comes from one good set of steady arms, not those of once-grabbers and tail chasers.


----------



## Wolfman1968

This link seems more true all the time:

This says it all!


----------



## Buffer

How did she take the questioning?
buffer


----------



## RandomDude

Wolfman1968 said:


> This link seems more true all the time:
> 
> This says it all!


🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 
You do know not-so-attractive girls are actually the most vulnerable to the attentions of other men right? LOL

Loyal attractive girls only need it from one man and are already sick of all the attention!


----------



## Wolfman1968

RandomDude said:


> 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣
> You do know not-so-attractive girls are actually the most vulnerable to the attentions of other men right? LOL
> 
> Loyal attractive girls only need it from one man and are already sick of all the attention!


It's still a good song, regardless.


----------



## Mr.Married

I think Rob has decided to vacate the building


----------



## RandomDude

Wolfman1968 said:


> It's still a good song, regardless.


Yeah, thanks for getting it stuck in my head


----------



## bandit.45

Mr.Married said:


> I think Rob has decided to vacate the building


He waited too long, buried his head in the sand, and now it's too late for him to really lay down any kind of legitimate demand that she be honest with him. All he can do is either live with it and never mention it again or divorce her and move on.


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## Thumos

I disagree. People can divorce at any time for any reason. Same with asserting respect in a marriage. He can say “this isn’t working for me. Number one I want you back in the bedroom and intimate with me as in a normal marriage. And I want an explanation for these photos and a polygraph and retrieval software run on your phone. I allowed behavior in our marriage that I shouldn’t have but it’s untenable for me now. If you won’t do those things for me then I think we should separate.” He will know pretty quick where he stands with her.


----------



## hinterdir

Rob Panache said:


> Up front, this is long and probably way too detailed for anyone other than those who are suffering from insomnia! My apologies for that, however even if no one reads this, just writing it out served as some therapy for me. Also, as I read other posts I realize this is pretty tame, but still serious to me as I try to determine if my open and honest relationship is "real".
> 
> I have an amazing relationship with my new wife of close to 6 years now. This relationship is completely different for both of us compared to previous relationships and a previous marriage for both of us. From the beginning we have been determined to have complete honesty with each other regardless of the good, bad or ugly of a situation. She has shared difficult details of her past and shared things that have happened since we met that made me feel greatly confident of that openness and honesty; yet here I am!
> 
> I am trying to decide if something happened on a business trip that took place about 2 years ago. I had put the questions behind me until some photos turned up from a push of all our various device photos to the Amazon photo cloud service. It was enough to make me start digging and trying to determine if I am just letting my imagination get the best of me or if she is not quite as honest and open as I thought. I just want to make a determination one way or another, I just have this compelling need to know. I went back to old texts and pictures to try to piece this together.
> 
> My wife went on a business trip in California. We both travel for business and like to keep in touch via text during our travels. We also like to tease each other a bit about situations that normally occur during travel. Sophia is an extremely attractive and intelligent woman, and often gets hit on by men. She tells me when this happens, and we laugh about the situations. She is in a sales role for her company, and it is standard procedure for me to ask and receive a picture of how she is dressed for the day or dinner meetings she might have. At this meeting, she set up her company booth (working alone for the company at this conference) and was soon meeting with many physicians to talk about her product. During the first day of travel, setup and meetings she sent me several pictures of herself (she always looked very professional and very sexy at the same time), pictures of competitors products and booths, text discussions of who she was meeting and how they might be useful to her company, etc. There was a reception later the first day, she got back to her room at 1 AM and I did not receive any texts that I would normally get while she was out but wanting to stay connected to me. She does not drink much and is not a party type of person, she is quite serious by nature.
> 
> The next day she met a highly rated physician and successful international businessman that was a perfect fit for her company product and perhaps even an advisory board role for them. He invited her to lunch to discuss further. After a 2-hour lunch, she was practically gushing to me regarding his credentials and was excited that she might be landing a very prominent candidate for the company. There was another reception that night at 6 PM, I received one text saying things were going very well and that she “was bonding”. She texted at 1 AM that she was heading back to her room and would call, it took quite some time for her to call though. She described the physician as a “wonderful soul”, and that he invited her to dinner the next night.
> 
> The next day the physician stopped by her booth and said he had made reservations for 6 PM. She was still gushing about his credentials on that day, and to be fair, he would make a great addition to the company. They went to a nice place for dinner, she did not send me any pictures of herself before going to dinner (as she normally would) and only sent a Trip Advisor link to the restaurant they were going to. I was getting curious about this new friend and asked for a picture if she could without it being awkward. She did not send any, however later I found a picture he sent her of the two of them at the restaurant standing side by side, her nestled into him with his arm around her. Dinner was around 9 PM, no texts or pictures, only a text at 12:20 AM saying she was heading back to hotel and would call me. If my memory serves me correctly, there was a long delay and she finally called at 1:30 AM saying he wanted to have another drink with her at the hotel. There was a goodnight kiss and hug, because the next day she referenced the one she received as bigger and longer than the night before.
> 
> I received a sexy Good Morning Avatar the next morning, told me she had plans to have coffee with him at 10:30 AM. The company was planning for her to go to another similar conference in Florida in a couple of weeks since she had so much success at this one. The physician was going to be at that one also since it was near his hometown. He was leaving town that day, and they met again for a two-hour lunch where they had a glass of wine (she rarely drinks wine during the day). When I teased her regarding if she received a goodbye kiss (humor was my way of trying to find out what was happening) she replied by text saying “yes, big hug and kisses”, and that he was excited about her coming to Florida. I pressed her about the extent of the kisses, she just said bigger and longer than the other ones. I asked if this was open lip, she replied “NO”, and then no longer wanted to discuss it and left to take a walk, effectively closing the discussion.
> 
> I pushed back on the trip to Florida and we had a big argument by phone and text. I told her I was concerned not that she had so many meeting with him, but that she was meeting with him exclusively and that the lunches and dinners were 4-hour ordeals. Also, I asked why I never received any pictures of how she dressed for each of these outings with him, feeling that she was hiding something. Somehow, my teasing was to blame, and that I should keep my focus on our relationship vs. trying to build one that did not exist with someone else. The decision was made that she would go to the 3-day Florida meeting.
> 
> Florida, Day 1. Physician stopped by her booth first day to ask her out for a drink. Reception started at 5:30, they had drinks and dinner together at restaurant, she was back in room at 10:30 PM.
> 
> Day 2. We had another argument that morning, not about physician but about something trivial but she would not let it drop. He asked her out to dinner that night, drove her to EPCOT to one of the nicer restaurants there. They decided to stay for the fireworks and walk around the park together. Once again, she did not send me any pictures of what she was wearing to go out, it was a fancy restaurant and she likes to dress up when going out. She told me what she wore, and I remember being surprise that she dressed down for a nice restaurant. She wore a long sleeve linen shirt over a cami. I remember thinking maybe I’m making too much of all of this, if she is dressing down then it might just be my imagination. Later, I found pictures that he took of her outside the restaurant. It was as she described, but something about the picture didn’t seem right. Then as I looked closer, I realized that it is obvious she was braless and the cami was actually a sheer open lace-back one that she owns that is very sexy. With the temps in Orlando being very warm then, I now believe that is how she dressed for dinner but put on the linen shirt as a jacket and buttoned it up for the picture. She did not tell me about the pictures, saying she never had any, but these came over automatically from her phone during the photo download. Also, there is a look on her face for these 3 photos that made me wonder. I sent the picture to a woman friend of mine who knows us both and asked her what she saw in the picture giving her no context. Her first reply was: “Wow, did you both just make love??”.
> 
> Day 3. She was invited by him to a special physician only reception, she was dressed to kill (finally sent a picture). 5 PM reception, they walked to dinner at 7. There was live music, she had a martini (once or twice a year will she drink anything but wine). I asked if they danced, she said not really…only in a group. Later I found texts by him and her complimenting each other on their dancing, and him saying it is easy to look good dancing when you have Ginger Rogers in your arms. Plus, there was a two-hour gap in messages when the dancing would have taken place. She was back in her room at 11 PM. Somewhere in the evening she told him she was happily married, he said then needed to clone her so that he could have one for himself.
> 
> Day of departure, he texted to ask her to go to lunch before he left. She agreed, even though she knew this was really causing problems between us. After their lunch he drove home, but on the way, he recorded himself singing a love song to her in Spanish (his native language). He also sent other music clips to her of his favorite Spanish artists, pictures from world travels, etc.
> 
> So, if this was anyone else, I would probably have no question. Having an affair would go against all of her principles and her character. We discussed this at length, with her ‘convincing’ me that nothing happened. That yes, he must have developed feelings for her, but it was all professional. She also said, the meetings were 85% business and 15% personal. My accounting shows they probably spent about 40 hrs together between the two conferences, so that does not ring true to me.
> 
> Please, no abuse for how I handled this. I beat myself up plenty and do not need any help! I would like to hear if this is obvious or not to others who have read my account (once you wake up, of course).


Well, I'm not sure how this happened 2 years ago and it is just now that you seem to be curious about this.
To be honest, I never chose to have a relationship with women that traveled for their job.
I wasn't aware dating other men....dinners, drinks, lunches was an acceptable thing to do.
To me that isn't acceptable to do and be my wife so a woman wanting to do that....travel to other cities without me and go out to lunches, wine, meetings with other men for "work" would be a 100% deal breaker. You seemed to be somewhat ok with it then because you stayed married for 2 more years.
Did you two not already have an understanding of what is ok and what crosses marital bounds?
Is her meeting for "dates" one on one, alone, drinking with male clients just a part of this marriage and her job that you've always been ok with?
Since your boundaries are so much different than mine it is hard to give much advice. Those are things I wouldn't accept....basically, you do that and we will be divorcing when you get home. You fly to Florida to go "date" some client then we are divorcing, your job and your behavior while on this job is not anything I want via a marriage partner so you've crossed my boundaries, this marriage is over.

Since what she has already done is already a deal breaker for me I am not sure how you can find out 2 years later if even more happened than her dating this guy and traveling with him for days and up to a weeks worth of time.

You have openly admitted that she has kissed him, spent endless hours of alone time with him, having drinks with him, lunches with him, dinners with him, went to meet him in Florida...etc. You want to make sure they didn't have sex. Well what if they didn't? Are you ok with any of that stuff she did? I wouldn't be ok with anything outside of talking to clients at the booth during the conference. Anything one on one, dinners etc., any kisses ever. Does she do this for her job? Meet up with clients for dinners? Let them kiss her? What kind of horrible, awful, boundaries do you two keep? How were you ok with that? How did you not divorce her or make it clear she was never to interact alone with male clients with that again or you leave? I do not understand what she will do for work and what is considered "ok" on business trips.
Going for tea and sitting with some strange man for an hour (another detail of another time you mentioned)? She sounds like she has horrible boundaries and you are in turmoil because of these boundaries with other men. She doesn't have much boundary.


Other than laying it all out to her like you have done us and tell her that her actions now have you doubting your marriage and her fidelity and that she crossed your boundaries and you do not know how you can move forward with her and demand the truth.
You'll never really know unless she confesses.
Anyway, all that you described cross all my boundaries and I couldn't be married to anyone who did that for a career.

If you ever confront her and bring up that night...do not let her belittle your feelings. Your feelings are real and you feel how you feel and you do not need to apologize for them. If her not posting photos of dress as she always did before, if her kissing him, spending so much alone time with him, being unusually late with texting you back that night when she normally doesn't, drinking with him when she normally doesn't drink makes you feel bad, hurts you, gives you doubt about her boundaries, gives you doubt about her faithfulness and truthfulness, gives you doubt about her love, commitment to you as a husband vs. some dude she meets at a conference, if you no longer trust her....then tell her boldly and directly and do not back down. You feel your feelings and they are the direct result of her behavior apart from you being alone with another man and being to close and personal with him.


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## hinterdir

Yeswecan said:


> Something odd about the entire business travel. However, my first thought was your W was using all of her business skills and assets to bring the Dr. onboard with her company. However, there was not much more than dinner, drinks, dancing and some innuendo perhaps. Further, how much communication has there been with this Dr. since this trip two years ago? If none, I would say there is not much more to the story. Dr. was interested in more than dinner. Your W was interested in her company by getting the Dr. onboard. Perhaps your W noticed this is all the Dr. wanted. No interest in coming onboard at all. This may be something your W needs to explain.


For me personally, I am not ok with my wife flying to other cities and hanging out for huge chunks of alone time having drinks, lunches, dinners and dancing with other men and kissing other men. I'm shocked things didn't blow up 2 years ago and the OP seemed to just go on as if this is normal, healthy, acceptable behavior for a married woman.
My wife dates me, if she wants to date other men for work then it is a divorce. Non negotiable.


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## Divinely Favored

My wife worked in Radio sales and said there were always pigs fishing. After keeping it all business they tended to get the message pretty quick not to go there cause she was not biting. Only one she would not tell me about was a State Trooper in Okla that thought he was Gods gift to women pulled her over on way home one evening. He made some improper comments.....again pigs fishing. She did not want me to confront him. I could usually tell business owners like that by the way she did not like doing sales calls there.

One disappointment is HS classmate I thought was good guy tried to get her to ditch me and go out with him. She came home and told me, it really pizzed her off he disrespected me like that. Oh well, he broke his neck in atv wreck a couple years later.


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## OddOne

I don't think it's helpful to basically call someone a quitter because he or she doesn't respond within a few days. Granted, I get the sense the OP is most likely not going to do more than contemplate how his rather obviously wayward wife's alleged CSA contributed to her behavior 2 years ago and upto today, and try and "fix" it by being super empathetic with her, etc., but, even so, I think he needs encouragement most of all right now.


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## [email protected]

Two years ago? Oh sure. Rob doesn't want to believe the obvious. It'll continue ti eat at him.


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## Gabriel

RandomDude said:


> Argh, been biting my tongue with this but now I have to say it. You CAN have a 10/10 wife who is a constant target for other males and who is extremely loyal, loving, and understands both the boundaries and sacrifices required to maintain a healthy and lasting relationship.
> 
> You just have to picky, be patient, be strong with your own boundaries and expectations and expect the same in return. Find those who know their worth and don't need others to validate them, the cream of the crop. And yes, there are such women of these calibre who with the world at their fingertips they want only one man who will love and cherish them.


That would be called a unicorn in slang terms. Let's break it down.

Odds of a woman being 10/10 in the first place = very small
Odds of a 10/10 woman agreeing to spend her life with you = small
Odds that woman's boundaries are impenetrable = who knows

Multiply all that together, and to get a 10/10 woman to be your lifelong mate with perfect boundaries to the point no man, no matter how tempting, strong, good looking etc. could knock the wall down even once.....while not impossible, is extremely rare - we're talking fractions of a % of the population. 

Life is too short to be that picky. If someone can find her, good for that guy. I can think of maybe 2 men I know out of hundreds that have this situation.

Of course, 10/10 is in the eye of the beholder. I'm talking about a universal 10 here.


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## RandomDude

Gabriel said:


> That would be called a unicorn in slang terms. Let's break it down.
> 
> Odds of a woman being 10/10 in the first place = very small
> Odds of a 10/10 woman agreeing to spend her life with you = small
> Odds that woman's boundaries are impenetrable = who knows
> 
> Multiply all that together, and to get a 10/10 woman to be your lifelong mate with perfect boundaries to the point no man, no matter how tempting, strong, good looking etc. could knock the wall down even once.....while not impossible, is extremely rare - we're talking fractions of a % of the population.
> 
> Life is too short to be that picky. If someone can find her, good for that guy. I can think of maybe 2 men I know out of hundreds that have this situation.
> 
> Of course, 10/10 is in the eye of the beholder. I'm talking about a universal 10 here.


Oh yeah, true its not for everyone, just saying if you want the best then it is possible... if you are willing to wait.

Plenty of 8s and 9s who although aren't universal 10s (and who are more than likely 10s to the beholder) are more than attractive enough for the average man as well as perfectly loyal and worthy of trust. Along with other genuine qualities; devotion, affection, non materialism, etc.

I settled for that in the past, and she would have been good enough if not for other issues...

But as for unicorns, yes I waited 32 years for her and only met her after divorce. To me she was already a 10 but little did I expect her to be so universally beautiful to everyone. Took me a while to get used to. An example, on the day I approached her and gave her a love note, it was the THIRD she already received that day, like wtf!

Either than her looks frightening thing was her understanding of so many principles of relationships that took me 32 years and a marriage to learn.

Unicorns exist. I even bought her a unicorn cake 3 years ago lol.


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## ConanHub

Gabriel said:


> That would be called a unicorn in slang terms. Let's break it down.
> 
> Odds of a woman being 10/10 in the first place = very small
> Odds of a 10/10 woman agreeing to spend her life with you = small
> Odds that woman's boundaries are impenetrable = who knows
> 
> Multiply all that together, and to get a 10/10 woman to be your lifelong mate with perfect boundaries to the point no man, no matter how tempting, strong, good looking etc. could knock the wall down even once.....while not impossible, is extremely rare - we're talking fractions of a % of the population.
> 
> Life is too short to be that picky. If someone can find her, good for that guy. I can think of maybe 2 men I know out of hundreds that have this situation.
> 
> Of course, 10/10 is in the eye of the beholder. I'm talking about a universal 10 here.


I agree with @RandomDude and the point he was making regardless of a scale.

There are, in my experience, a lot of very attractive women that are real sweethearts and very good mate prospects.

They aren't caught off guard by attention because they are use to it and know how to navigate through unwanted attention and focus their heat where it belongs with their husbands.

I have also seen ladies that were not use to attention, who suddenly, for varying reasons, started getting hit on regularly and destroyed themselves because they didn't know how to manage it.

There was a friend I had from a good sized family. One of his little sisters was about two years behind us and considered plain by probably most.

She bloomed late in highschool and actually won the title of homecoming queen and inherited all that comes with it.

She basically went wild with the attention she received from the most popular and attractive guys in school and even some young men just out of school.

Last time I saw her was on a return trip to my hometown. I was already married and a bunch of the old crowd got together for some fun at bowling alley with a restaurant/lounge and hotel attached.

It was a great time but this lady was there and obviously pregnant with no attachment and she was trying to get me in the sack despite my wife obviously being right there.

I was sad for her but it was an illustration of what can happen when a girl goes from everyone ignoring her to becoming a highly desirable woman.

It isn't a slam on anyone who suddenly gets attention when they aren't use to it.

It is something to be aware of though.


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## Divinely Favored

ConanHub said:


> I agree with @RandomDude and the point he was making regardless of a scale.
> 
> There are, in my experience, a lot of very attractive women that are real sweethearts and very good mate prospects.
> 
> They aren't caught off guard by attention because they are use to it and know how to navigate through unwanted attention and focus their heat where it belongs with their husbands.
> 
> I have also seen ladies that were not use to attention, who suddenly, for varying reasons, started getting hit on regularly and destroyed themselves because they didn't know how to manage it.
> 
> There was a friend I had from a good sized family. One of his little sisters was about two years behind us and considered plain by probably most.
> 
> She bloomed late in highschool and actually won the title of homecoming queen and inherited all that comes with it.
> 
> She basically went wild with the attention she received from the most popular and attractive guys in school and even some young men just out of school.
> 
> Last time I saw her was on a return trip to my hometown. I was already married and a bunch of the old crowd got together for some fun at bowling alley with a restaurant/lounge and hotel attached.
> 
> It was a great time but this lady was there and obviously pregnant with no attachment and she was trying to get me in the sack despite my wife obviously being right there.
> 
> I was sad for her but it was an illustration of what can happen when a girl goes from everyone ignoring her to becoming a highly desirable woman.
> 
> It isn't a slam on anyone who suddenly gets attention when they aren't use to it.
> 
> It is something to be aware of though.


Same reason alot of times a boob job and weightloss equal the end of a marriage. All of a sudden they get hit on alot and next thing you know you have an adultress on your hands because they start living for the ego kibbles. They saw themselves as less desireable than dear hubby and now she has all these other men calling and hubby dont compare in her mind.


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## Andy1001

Story’s about someone who wouldn’t be considered conventionally attractive having a partner completely out of their league looks wise but who adores them are for fairy tales. It may happen but there’s always something else involved. 
“What first attracted you to that billionaire, Anna Nicole” springs to mind.


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## Gabriel

RandomDude said:


> Oh yeah, true its not for everyone, just saying if you want the best then it is possible... if you are willing to wait.
> 
> Plenty of 8s and 9s who although aren't universal 10s (and who are more than likely 10s to the beholder) are more than attractive enough for the average man as well as perfectly loyal and worthy of trust. Along with other genuine qualities; devotion, affection, non materialism, etc.
> 
> I settled for that in the past, and she would have been good enough if not for other issues...
> 
> But as for unicorns, yes I waited 32 years for her and only met her after divorce. To me she was already a 10 but little did I expect her to be so universally beautiful to everyone. Took me a while to get used to. An example, on the day I approached her and gave her a love note, it was the THIRD she already received that day, like wtf!
> 
> Either than her looks frightening thing was her understanding of so many principles of relationships that took me 32 years and a marriage to learn.
> 
> Unicorns exist. I even bought her a unicorn cake 3 years ago lol.


That's a great story. Consider yourself lucky - sorry you had to go through some pain first.


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## Violet28

The 'wonderful soul' comment is a dead giveaway, people only say that crap about they want to bang, are banging or used to bang.


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## hinterdir

Violet28 said:


> The 'wonderful soul' comment is a dead giveaway, people only say that crap about they want to bang, are banging or used to bang.


Very well could be, lol. 
I'm surprised OP seems so accepting of his wife flying off and dating other men and wining and dining for several days all chummy and having men kiss her. 
That is enough for me to be done with her even if there was no sex. 
Apparently OP is fine with her doing that regularly for "work"...just as long as there isn't sex. She can date guys when she flies out of town for work....just so long as it stops before sex.
Great setup. 
She lives like she is a single woman, not married.


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## VladDracul

I always tell young men that a sure way to end up as road kill is to fall in love with her face, figure, and puzzy rather than her. You may love what you see, but you have to live with her actions, personality and demeanor.


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## Tempocontour

Any update? I hope you are ok.


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## MattMatt

@Rob Panache how is it going?


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## manowar

She married this guy for a reason. carry the financial load. conferences = good time. body count - high. " i dont want to seem controlling or that im invading her privacy". "What she did before meeting me is none of my business".
NG thinking. PI was the way to go. Hire a PI for the next conference. Or DIY. Like a home depot project that she has you doing around the house. Go to the conference and book a hotel room in the same hotel. make sure she doesnt see you. See what shes up to. Whose she with. Wear a disguise. Surprise Honey! Of course not. "that crosses the boundaries of trust".

I would have had her vetted before marrying her. But thats me. 

I think she was basically telling you what was going on in female doubletalk. She may have actually felt guilty about it. Seems like it was a test. It may have been subconscious on her part. testing to see if you'd do something. To confront her. To be angry. See if you'd react. testing your backbone. Don't think it was a random guy who chatted her up with a sad story in the hotel lobby. More like one of her dates. Someone she knew or met.

Rob. this is what women want. A strong confident man in their life. they want a leader in life and the bedroom. they want a guy that they respect. While her attraction level in husband was sinking it was rising for those assertive seemingly strong random guys at the conferences who were going after what they want. Over time she will test the random guy to determine whether he is the real deal. Strong, assertive, confident or a pretender.

Rob divorced and ran right back into marriage with the same delusional 1950s worldview. Classic NG move. Call the first husband. Find out why he dumped her. Instead, the NG believes everything she tells him. Bet she was playing the first husband too. I'd wager on it. 

I sadly read the entire thread. You asked for a book. Read immediately No More Mr. Nice Guy. recommended by a few other posters. Understand female nature. You don't understand it. You do understand the romantic comedy. I'd suggest the Rational Male by rollo tomassi.


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## Thumos

I heartily recommend to any betrayed spouse that they go get "Cheating in A Nutshell" (came out last year). Will explain almost everything about how you are feeling, validate your thoughts and feelings and give you a road map for getting out of infidelity. It's a great antidote to adultery apologists.


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## Harken Banks

Thumos said:


> I heartily recommend to any betrayed spouse that they go get "Cheating in A Nutshell" (came out last year). Will explain almost everything about how you are feeling, validate your thoughts and feelings and give you a road map for getting out of infidelity. It's a great antidote to adultery apologists.


Risking thread jack, thanks for the tip. I read some of the preview on Amazon and ordered it. Maybe there should be a library thread.


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## Buffer

Yep she is cheating


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## Tempocontour

I hope you are ok.


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## MattMatt

@Rob Panache how is it going?


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