# Chat on Facebook



## blown away (Feb 19, 2009)

Is there anyway to track the chat feature on Facebook? I am certain that this feature is being used for contact with parties she is not to be in contact with. 

I have keyloggers on the computers at home but she will get on FB while she is at work and I can't track that computer. Is ther any way to log on while she is logged on and visually see the chat feature while she is chatting?

Any help is appreciated.


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## pokergirl007 (Mar 17, 2010)

Yes if you know her password.... you can log in and see the chats in real time but my concern for you is this..... If you already dont trust your SO (and it seems evident you dont if you have keyloggers) why do you want to continue in the relationship? Do you want to spend the rest of your life or your near future anyways, always on high alert looking for problems? That will eat your insides out faster than anything she is chatting about.... Ive been there.... I can see your point and even understand your complusion to check up on her but I promise you that you will end up driving yourself crazy. Can I ask what prompted you to put the keyloggers on the computer in the first place?


Oh - and what do you mean by persons she is not to be in contact with??? Who determines that? And does she have the same luxury with your "friends" list?


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## blown away (Feb 19, 2009)

The keyloggers were placed on the computer after I found out about an EA. Long story but after counselling she really has done nothign in my opinion to work on the problems in the marriage. She has not had contact with that particular individual but it sems like instead of working on the marriage, she is more interested in spending her energy chatting with people on FB.

I am about ready to call it all quits. I have bent over backwards for her and she has done nothing in my opinion for me as her husband, unless she gets somethign out of it. With two kids under 12 it is difficult to finally make the decision, but I am the type of person that once I make it ther is no turning back.

With regard to her friends list. She uses it more than I do and I do not really chat with anyone. Certainly not single females when I am married. Do you think I am blowing this out of proportion?


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

poker - Are you sure about logging on at the same time? 

I tried a little experiment once and tried to log onto my own facebook account using Mozilla and Internet Explorer at the same time. When I logged on with one, it would kick me off the other. I concluded that me trying to log on while my wife was already on would kick her off and - if done enough - make her suspicious.


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## pokergirl007 (Mar 17, 2010)

What is it that YOU need in order to feel like you are valued? respected? Is she still having and EA, has something happenned to make you feel like it is still going on or that it is happening again?

I understand your pain, Im going through something similar myself... Im a for keeps kind of girl though and I am currently struggling with making the choice to stay or go..... I HATE the idea of giving up on our marriage but there is only so much that one person can fix by themselves in a marriage.... I just feel that the keyloggers are something that are going to continue to nurture the "problems"- that keeping tabs like that (and I am guilty of it myself after all thats how I know it works when you log on to their account and no they cant tell you are on there.... but you have to open up a chat window when the person you suspect is the issue is online in order to see the chats and the chat history) will keep your marriage in a bad zone.... I guess Im not much help. I hope whatever happens that you find what you are looking for and that you get the respect and consideration you deserve. It feels horrible to be suspicous to feel unloved and disrespected.... I get it and I hope for you it ends well.


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## pokergirl007 (Mar 17, 2010)

Yes, Im sure.... Doesnt work on the same PC but I have done it while my SO is at work and I am at home.... As recently as a few days ago I hate to admit  

Makes me feel pathetic to be so desperate for TRUTH that I have to go there.... I dont want to be that person you know?


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## Momof3kids (Nov 24, 2009)

Yes, you can log on at the same time - just not through the same computer.


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## pokergirl007 (Mar 17, 2010)

Blown Away.... I dont think you are blowing it up into something its not, I agree with you. My Husband chats on FB in a way that makes him seem single and he crosses the boundries of what I think is appropriate. Its a hot button issue for me too at the moment so Im not sure Im the best to ask about whether or not your response is proportionate or not. Whatever happens, just dont let the situation cause you to become someone you aren't.... you cant fix a marriage if you are the only one willing to work on it. Good Luck!


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## Ted (Mar 2, 2009)

I too did this to find get info before I confronted my wife about her affair. My experience is that you can see their account, if you are signed in from another computer, but it will knock her off in real time, and then she logs back in and will knock you off. That was a year ago, so maybe they've changed it since then if Pokergirl007 says it works.

I do know I was able to use a third party messaging client and see the conversation in real time. 

But like others said, if she was already caught, and is supposed to be totally transparent with you now (I assume she knows about the keylogger and the fact that you have her password) and you still can't trust her, then it's time to talk to the counselor about ways that you can jolt her out of this fantasy/escapism that facebook provides from the problems of your marriage.


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## blown away (Feb 19, 2009)

Yes she knows about the keylogger and she knows I know her password. My #1 issue is that I don't think she puts our marriage first. I don't have a problem with FB as long as it is not taking away from the energy she needs to be putting toward fixing our problems. 

She does not realize how difficult an EA is to cope with. She knows that she lost my trust and that took 12 yrs to gain. She has been much better about letting me know her intentions so that I would not think her going out with a friend was a coverup. However, that does not mean I am not going to check to make certain the same thing that happened to me before happens again.

She is now paying her own credit cards and get to pay her own phone bill, which only leaves her about $20.00 per week to have for herself. That was her choice and I told her that if we were going to live like roomates then we would live like that financially too. CAll me stubborn, but I am not going to feel like I am being taken advantage of. 

Don't get me wrong, our communication is much better than before, but not at all where it needs to be in my opinion. 

Was the third party chat software used to track FB? I am asking these questions, because I know that FB is becoming an outlet for inappropriate behavior for a lot of people which is unfortunate.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

I hope you don't mind if I add a few of my own observations and ask a couple of questions...



> The keyloggers were placed on the computer after I found out about an EA. Long story but after counselling she really has done nothign in my opinion to work on the problems in the marriage. She has not had contact with that particular individual but it sems like instead of working on the marriage, she is more interested in spending her energy chatting with people on FB.


Here's a question that you might want to consider - you mention that 'in your opinion' she has done nothing to work on these problems. But - what about in her opinion? In her opinion, has she tried to get a message across to you? The reason I ask this is because of the following quote:



> I am about ready to call it all quits. I have bent over backwards for her and she has done nothing in my opinion for me as her husband, unless she gets somethign out of it.


One of the things that I've seen happen a lot is that a partner in a marriage will do all sorts of things that they believe their spouse needs or wants them to do, and believe that this is what is necessary to get through to their spouse, or, that they believe will let their spouse know they are loved. 

In reality, though - something entirely different has happened. As an example, suppose I decide that my wife wants the house to be clean, and the oil in the car to be changed. If I do those things she will certainly then know that I love her. So I do all of those things diligently. And my wife notices these things and thinks "how nice - he cleaned the house and changed the oil in the car!" But in her mind, what she really needs to feel loved is for me to sit down with her, look directly in her eyes and give her my undivided attention as she discusses whatever is on her mind. To her, love is shown through meaningful conversation, not changing the oil. 

If I don't know this is what she wants, I can easily make the statement "I have cleaned, and cleaned and cleaned the house, and I have changed the oil on a regular basis - and still she is not responding! I'm bending over backwards for her!

And so, for her - she does not feel loved - and for me - I feel exhausted and ready to give up.

There is also a related issue here: you claim that she has done nothing for you (in your opinion) as her husband - unless she gets something out of it. Have you done things for her as your wife in which you get nothing out of it? If so, are you keeping score? Can your wife sense that you are building up an "I own my husband 'X' acts of selflessness" list?

Affairs almost never happen in a vacuum. Usually, the Other Person(s) is(are) filling a need that your spouse is not receiving from you. In the case of chatting, it is quite often either affection, admiration or conversation. All of those she can easily get from others over the internet. 

Of course, unless the affair stops, it is almost impossible for you to fill those needs - she is getting them somewhere else - you are superfluous. So the affair needs to stop, and a solid rule of no contact has to be observed. There are steps you can take that will make the affair less desirable. 

I am more concerned that neither of you has done real work to fix the troubles in the marriage. I sense that there's been a lot of wheel spinning, but no real progress.



> With regard to her friends list. She uses it more than I do and I do not really chat with anyone. Certainly not single females when I am married. Do you think I am blowing this out of proportion?


No, you are not blowing this out of proportion. It is also wise to refrain from all conversation with single females (and other females at all, unless your wife is completely aware of the conversation and it's content.) I do have a question, though: how do you know your wife is carrying on conversations at work? Does she tell you? How do you have this information? 

"... you cant fix a marriage if you are the only one willing to work on it..."

This is very true - BUT! You CAN start work on the marriage, and begin to set up an environment where the marriage is more desirable than the affair._ There is hope._


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## 63Vino (Dec 23, 2009)

Tanelornpete said:


> One of the things that I've seen happen a lot is that a partner in a marriage will do all sorts of things that they believe their spouse needs or wants them to do, and believe that this is what is necessary to get through to their spouse, or, that they believe will let their spouse know they are loved.
> 
> In reality, though - something entirely different has happened. As an example, suppose I decide that my wife wants the house to be clean, and the oil in the car to be changed. If I do those things she will certainly then know that I love her. So I do all of those things diligently. And my wife notices these things and thinks "how nice - he cleaned the house and changed the oil in the car!" But in her mind, what she really needs to feel loved is for me to sit down with her, look directly in her eyes and give her my undivided attention as she discusses whatever is on her mind. To her, love is shown through meaningful conversation, not changing the oil.
> 
> ...



Just had to comment on this... THAT is good stuff. Nicely put!!

I've lived though this myself... Never make assumptions. If you dont know what she needs... find out from her directly.. Communicate.


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## G__T (Mar 17, 2010)

I recently had a marriage of 20 years down the drain. I found this software to work just fine. It collects temporary internet files that are left behind for weeks on end. Its states the user name, FaceBook ID, timestamp, and what was said. Beware, are you sure you want to read what is being said? My hands still are shaking from the pain of finding this betrayal of marriage. Google Fchat JAD software....you have to buy the software, but it is worth every penny for knowing what is going on. Good luck and Peace...


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> She is now paying her own credit cards and get to pay her own phone bill, which only leaves her about $20.00 per week to have for herself. That was her choice and I told her that if we were going to live like roomates then we would live like that financially too. CAll me stubborn, but I am not going to feel like I am being taken advantage of.


Probably identified the trouble right there. No, there is nothing wrong with paying your own bills, or having to deal with a tight budget. But - why are you living like roommates? 

Is this the arrangement you both agreed upon, or was it a rule you laid down that she is to abide by?

If you are just roommates....

Roommates do not share private lives like married people do. They have their own lives. At best, there are rules about what you can do in the living space, what bills are paid, etc. Roommates, unless there is a very twisted relationship - do not have the option of determining what the other person does outside the 'apartment' - unless it has legal implications for either (dealing drugs, etc.)

So your roommate chats with people - outside the house, on their own time. So what?

If this is the arrangement you declared for your relationship - then what do you expect your wife to do? It f she does not feel that you consider her a wife, I can pretty much guarantee that she will find other people to fill needs that she has - her roommate is no obliged to do that!!!!


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## blown away (Feb 19, 2009)

All very good points. In discussions with myself and the counselor, she could not give 1 example of something she has done to change things in the marriage. She will however acknowledge that I have change my behavior with regard to the issues that brought out the EA in the first place. 

Yes I have read the "FIVE LOVE LANGUAGES" and discussed this with her. She knows what my language(s) is/are and the changes I have made previously were directly toward her language. 

My comment about getting something in return is related to if I want to spend time with her, then she wants that time spent shopping. I have taken her shopping before just so she could go, because I know she likes that. May not have been a good choice of words, but I hope this makes things clearer now.

With regards to the roomate question...... In my opinion we live like roommates because once we get home from going out to eat every night, she retreats to her room to watch her television and put our daughter to sleep. We clearly have a child centered marriage which has been identified by the counselor as well. Our daughter wanted me to help her get her own bed ready to go to sleep one night, so I did. When she went and told her nother that she was going to sleep in her own room, the question was asked, "Well who influenced you to do that?" 

I have no idea what else to do, because everythign I try pretty much end up confirming the fact that she wants to be married, but not necessarily to me.


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## Lyn (Mar 10, 2010)

Pardon me if I have missed this part, but has she said what she wants or expects from your relationship?

Lyn


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

blownaway~

There were several things you said in your posts that raised some "not so subtle" red flags for me. Shall we start at the beginning?

In your very first post you used these words:


> ...I am certain that this feature is being used for contact with parties she is not to be in contact with...


 This selection of wording caught my eye because it sounds to me like she is being told who she *can* and *can not* have contact with, and it is not her decision but some outside person telling her...most likely you. While you and I and most folks here on TAM may agree that it's morally "wrong" for her to contact single men for extended chats on FB while at work with the intent of getting love kindlers met by another she is a mature adult completely capable of deciding for herself if she will or will not make that contact. If she is being TOLD who she "can not have contact with" that is an attempt to control her, and I guarantee you that will meet with disaster.



> ...she will get on FB while she is at work and I can't track that computer...


 Ummm, how do you know this? Has she told you or are you guessing or just suspicious? It seems reasonable to me that you not have access to a computer at work because the PC belongs to her employer, not you. If you do attempt to access that computer you could break laws or being accused of hacking. Likewise if you attempt to access her FB without her consent that could be considered electronic surveillance and in some states that's illegal or protected by laws (Electronic Surveillance Laws by state with links).


*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

In your next post you choose these words:


> ... after counselling she really has done nothign in my opinion to work on the problems in the marriage...


 This raised several red flags actually. #1--the "problems in the marriage" are something *she* needs to work on, yet I don't hear anywhere a humble admission of what you did to contribute to the marital ills. #2--she has done "nothing" and whenever words like "always" and "never" and "nothing" are used I know that something's up, usually an exaggeration of some type to illicit an emotional response or pity or something. #3--she has not made adequate "in your opinion" and yet there is little or no indication that she is thought of as an equal in the relationship, that her opinion is just as valid as yours, or that you are taking personal responsibility for your part. The focus here is not "I'm here to say this is what I did to contribute to this, here's the work I've been doing on myself and for us, and here's the way that I see it but her opinion may differ"--it's "HER HER HER It's her fault, she's not doing enough, she's not fixing what SHE did wrong and I get to decide what's right for the both of us." #4--you express that you EXPECT to receive when you give, and thus it is not a free gift of love but a gift that has to be returned or you'll be p*ssed! That's a way to build resentment in someone, not love.



> ...it sems like instead of working on the marriage, she is more interested in spending her energy chatting with people on FB...


 Are you an introvert? Is she an extrovert whom you make stay home alone with you all the time to prove she's being faithful? It may seem one way to you, but are you even taking your wife's view into consideration? Is it a valid view to you? I note that you say "she is more interested..." and that is putting words, thoughts and intentions into your wife's head. If you feel lonely because she chats so much, don't assign thoughts and reasons to her--just say "I feel lonely because she chats so much!" (This is using "I" statements.)



> I have bent over backwards for her and she has done nothing in my opinion for me as her husband, unless she gets somethign out of it.


 Again I note several red flags: #1--You use the term "bent over backwards for her" which I think is meant to inflame and cause an emotional response, but in what way have you done this? Concretely, if you asked her, what would she say you have done FOR HER? Because #2--again you express that you expect to receive when you give, and that's not giving. That is a business transaction, but not a gift, which is defined as "Something that is bestowed voluntarily and without compensation." I don't hear that you're doing is willingly or that you're doing it without compensation--or at least EXPECTING compensation. So just a thought: so far you have not GIVEN to your own wife. Is it any wonder she is "doing nothing for you as a husband"? #3--again the term "nothing" and as I said above "always" "never" and "nothing" mean something's up and probably exaggerated.



> ...With regard to her friends list. She uses it more than I do and I do not really chat with anyone. Certainly not single females when I am married.


 Here again a couple of possible red flags. #1--My Dear Hubby and I are both introverts, I work at home, and he sits next to me all day with my computer screen facing him and his facing me...and even *WE* do not go through each other's friends lists! I suppose it is conceivable that he does have a person whom he has friended who happens to be non-married and female because some of the folks he friends are political and we do politics together. My point is that if you are going through her friends list--that may be crossing a line into being controlling. Considering that I already see several indicators of that tendency, I'm concerned. #2--You mention that you don't really chat with anyone and the implication seems to be that if YOU don't chat with anyone then she shouldn't either (nor should anyone who is married). Imagining the situation where you are an introvert by nature and she is an extrovert by nature, you forcing your judgments and determinations on her is not working with a partner in an intimate relationship.

I suspect I may be seeing WHY she acts like you're roommates.

Now just a quick word. Let's assume she chats on FB in a way that seems like she's single and is not what you think is appropriate. Just for a quick refresher course, the boundary is not around HER--you can only control YOU so the boundary is around you. "I will only allow people in my life who treat me with love, respect, and faithfulness. If you want to voluntarily treat me that way I love you and want you. You are completely free to NOT treat me that way. But if that is your decision I will have to withdraw more and more to protect myself due to your choices."

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

In your next post here are some of the word selections and phrases that again raise some fairly major red flags in my head:



> ...My #1 issue is that I don't think she puts our marriage first...


 To me, this sounds like "my way or the highway" kind of pressure. If you've been to counseling I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and guess that you have spoken to her to say this is what you think...but what concerns me over and over is whether you give equal consideration and weight to what SHE thinks. After all, she is half of this relationship--an equal partner. And you are assigning words and thoughts to her again.



> ...I don't have a problem with FB as long as it is not taking away the energy she needs to be putting toward fixing our problems...


 Did you honestly say: "...the energy she needs to be putting toward"? As determined by who? You? You determine how much energy someone else should be putting out? Hmmm...I have to tell you this does not bode well.

These are the Characteristics of a Controlling Personality 
_1. Dominion over every issue--tending to dominate every aspect of life
2. Jealous--keep asking about the amount of time spent with others, wanting to dictate the kind of people "you are supposed to be with"
3. Complete control over emotions--determined to make you feel terrible about it or torture you endlessly the moment you do something that is not in their line of thought or action
4. Forced Intimacy--showing very little interest in your feelings or reality; focusing only about personal satisfaction._



> ...She knows that she lost my trust and that took 12 yrs to gain...


 I hope you don't mean that you withheld trust for 12 years and put her through hoops that long to try to "earn your trust."



> ...I told her that if we were going to live like roomates then we would live like that financially too. CAll me stubborn, but I am not going to feel like I am being taken advantage of...


 Here's what I hear when you write this. You dictated to her that if she didn't give you sex when and how you wanted it (or whatever) that you wouldn't pay her bills, as a punishment for not doing it your way. You decided, you enforced it, you hurt her because she was not giving you personal satisfaction, and nowhere is there any mention of mutuality or discussing it with her or including her in the decision-making or asking her. If you read any of my posts, you'll know that I do advise people that if the affair (EA or PA) is ongoing and the Disloyal Spouse refuses to end all contact, that it is reasonable to then indicate that if that is their choice that you'll allow them to experience the consequence of their choice and no longer pay for their decision to stay with the Other Person. But what I see here is that she is still in the marriage, has gone to counseling, is no longer in contact with the individual...but doesn't "work at it hard enough" or "put in the time" that you have determined she should, so you decided to punish her. That is ENTIRELY different! Furthermore, I am quite certain it is an enormous Love Extinguisher for her. And make no mistake, being controlled is going to very quickly put out any flame of love she may have (if any) so your actions can extinguish HER just as much as you claims her lack of action extinguishes you!



> ...Don't get me wrong, our communication is much better than before, but not at all where it needs to be in my opinion. ....


 I do understand that you are here and she is not, and thus you would be giving us your opinion. But when coupled with many of the other red flags I do wonder if this is yet another instance of you determining what is and is not right and then forcing it on your wife.


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In response to Tanelornpete, you wrote:


> ...In discussions with myself and the counselor, she could not give 1 example of something she has done to change things in the marriage...


 She can not change things "in the marriage" because is only one component of the marriage. She can only change herself and even then it's if she is willing and chooses to do so voluntarily. You may try to force her all you want, but in order for the change to be real and long lasting, she has to choose it. At this point, if she is controlled, punished for not doing things your way, and only your roommate, I could understand why she would not want to volunteer to change. Why should she? Anything she does is not a gift accepted lovingly, but an expectation.



> ...My comment about getting something in return is related to if I want to spend time with her, then she wants that time spent shopping. I have taken her shopping before just so she could go, because I know she likes that...


 And some part of you wants her to say, "Well since you took me shopping and I like that, now I'll do something with you that you want." That is not giving. That is a business transaction. A business transaction is when you say to someone: "In exchange for providing THIS, you will provide me with THAT." If you want to spend time with her, I suggest that the two of you do something you *both* enjoy (like a Star Trek Convention--heehee), and expect nothing in return for going to something you consider fun.

In conclusion, blownaway, as you can see I have gone post-by-post, almost line-by-line to politely and gently point out to you some of the things that worry me and indicate possible reasons why the wheels are spinning and spinning. No progress is being made in your marriage because you can not "make" her be faithful or do anything really! And based on what I can see, that's what you're trying to do. So I would recommend that you stop looking at her and what she's doing "wrong" and look to yourself. Work on the controlling and learn more about that kind of personality. There is a lot on the internet and several good books you could read as you work on YOU.


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## blown away (Feb 19, 2009)

Affaircare:

I appreciate your candidness. My other posts with details regarding the EA are posted in this forum as well, so I have not reposted everything again. In my previous posts I take responsibility for my part of what was lacking in our relationship. 

We were asked to not come back to counselling because the counselor was not seeing any progress on my wife's side. This was not my statement, this was the MC. My wife clearly does not want anyone telling her what to do. I have never told her what she could or could not do. I kept my mouth shut for the previous 12 yrs and adapted myself to conform to what she wanted. I have been faithful and loyal. After the EA I decided that I wodl not sit idly by and continue to overlook issues that affected me.

You are right, she is an adult and she has control of her actions. However, She has no control over the consequences of her actions though. Is this not correct?

From your post I get that I must be trying to control her. I also get that it is my decision to allow people into my life that treat me with respect, love, etc. And for that reason, I have decided that based on 15 month of trying to repair things, this is a marriage that I am not interested in continuing. 

I have made my decision and it is the one that I have prolonged since I found out about the EA. I think we waited too long to try and work on things and I will definitely take my part of the responsibility for that. She never will though


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

I'm sorry, but your wife's actions are entirely to be expected - both the _affair_, and the way she is responding to you now. *ANY affair is wrong, period - I make no exceptions*. It was an ill chosen attempt to fill a need that her husband was refusing to fill. But consequent actions after the affair regarding you are almost certainly now filling the need for self preservation and safety.



> My other posts with details regarding the EA are posted in this forum as well, so I have not reposted everything again. In my previous posts I take responsibility for my part of what was lacking in our relationship.


I went through all of your posts again - just to see if I missed anything the first time, and the end result was the same - I see nowhere in your posts where you take responsibility. There is one particular place where you say:

I know that I had not done things that I should have in our marriage and I will take responsibility for that, however I am not the one that went outside the bounds of our marriage to find what was not being received. Having sex once per month for the past 8 years is a lousy way to live, but I have never cheated on my wife. When I would broach the subject of lack of intimacy with her she would get irate and offensive about talking about it. But she can kid and joke around with someone else like this. It doesn't make sense to me.​
But that's the _extent_ of 'taking responsibility' - in essence you _make the statement_ at the start of your paragraph! You then proceed to justify your actions by pointing out what she isn't doing for you. There is never an attempt, at any time, in any of your posts, to elicit any aid in finding ways to either overcome the damage you caused - nor is there any examination of what she may be missing - what you can provide for her that she is getting from someone else.

And she certainly (is) was not getting something from you - the last two sentences of that same paragraph reveal that quite clearly.



> We were asked to not come back to counselling because the counselor was not seeing any progress on my wife's side. This was not my statement, this was the MC. My wife clearly does not want anyone telling her what to do.


Honestly, do you want someone telling you what to do? Why do you think your wife wants someone to tell her what to do? Your counselor would have had good reason to not ask you back. Progress cannot continue if both partners are not willing to work. But have _you_ addressed the reasons your wife decided to _quit working_ on the marriage (from your posts, thing started out favorably.) I have a pretty good idea why she completely withdrew from the healing process - your language on this forum reveals a lot. My guess is that the reason she decided to quit working is identical to the reason she went to the Other Man in the first place. In other words - you also refused to work on the marriage. You wanted to work 'on her' instead.



> I have never told her what she could or could not do. I kept my mouth shut for the previous 12 yrs and adapted myself to conform to what she wanted. I have been faithful and loyal. After the EA I decided that I wodl not sit idly by and continue to overlook issues that affected me.


I have some extreme reservations about that first sentence or two - the way you talk about your wife on these forums reveals a totally different type of personality. My guess is that you spent a lot time 'biting your tongue' - but don't think that did not escape your wife's notice. While it's very possible that you may have given in a lot of the time to your wife's desires, I'll bet that the attitude you presented to her was one that was not desirable at all. Yes, you may have been faithful (in that you did not have an affair) and loyal (whatever you meant by that) but did you make yourself the man she wanted? Did you actually take the time to get to know her? So far, on all the posts you've written, there is no evidence that you even have on inkling of an idea of a shadow of a notion what your wife really wants, or even thinks.

You claim you would not sit idly by and continue to overlook issues that affected you after the affair. That CAN be a positive step - depending on how you proceeded. 

My question: since you sat idly by for years and ignored what your wife wanted (yes, all the warning signs were there over the years) do you really think she is somehow going to magically respond and do whatever you demand because she messed up with an EA? What about YOU messing up for all those years prior to the EA? How long did she sit 'idly' by waiting for you to actually see her instead of the image of her your mind set up for you?

Moreover - this 'not sitting idly by' does it involve telling your wife what will be, regardless of her needs. It does not involve your being free to demand, demand, demand, order, order, order, command, command, command. She is not a toy, she is a real human being. Her wrong (having an affair) can NEVER justify you doing wrong in exchange. And yet you come across on ALL of your posts (except for two that I can think of) as a person who is so filled with anger that you don't even see the actual person in front of you. And yes, you have a right to feel anger at the affair. But you never have the right to use it to justify any actions you may take. Actions can be inappropriate regardless of a prior situation.



> You are right, she is an adult and she has control of her actions. However, She has no control over the consequences of her actions though. Is this not correct?


It CAN be correct. But there is one further addendum: YOU also are not in control of the consequences of her actions. YOU are not the executioner. You do not decide the punishment. At the very most, what you can do is allow her to experience the consequences of her actions. That's a far cry from determining her thoughts, actions and movements.



> From your post I get that I must be trying to control her. I also get that it is my decision to allow people into my life that treat me with respect, love, etc. And for that reason, I have decided that based on 15 month of trying to repair things, this is a marriage that I am not interested in continuing.


If you decided to end your marriage - _why post here at all_, on a site that is pro- marriage? 

As far as I can see, you haven't done a _single thing_ to repair your marriage - at least, you have not revealed it on this forum. All you've done here is seek ways to justify an intensely controlling behavior and find support to enable your angry outbursts on your wife. You look for ways to 'work on her' - not 'work on the marriage' (which are two entirely different things.)



> I have made my decision and it is the one that I have prolonged since I found out about the EA. I think we waited too long to try and work on things and I will definitely take my part of the responsibility for that. She never will though


Sounds to me like you wanted the divorce from the start, but wanted to make sure you could blame her for it entirely. And it took a lot of time to drive her far enough away from you to justify the action.

I disagree completely with the last two sentences: I do not see that you took any responsibility for the failure of your marriage. You are blaming her for reacting to the way you treated her both before and after the affair. And you have no idea if she would not respond favorably if you showed even the slightest bit of actual effort to actually reach out for her. _Every action you have done toward her has been designed to create a debt in her that she must fulfill to you_. I'd withdraw entirely from that too!

I understand that you most likely will not agree with my statements, nor possibly even try to understand them - which is fine with me. I'm not the judge - you don't answer to me for your actions. But I will say that I've been around this field a bit too long not to see all the signs, the flags, that I've pointed out. Best of luck to you.

Reference to what I see going on here.


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## Banff (Feb 8, 2010)

Tanelornpete said:


> I'm sorry, but your wife's actions are entirely to be expected - both the _affair_, and the way she is responding to you now. *ANY affair is wrong, period - I make no exceptions*. It was an ill chosen attempt to fill a need that her husband was refusing to fill. But consequent actions after the affair regarding you are almost certainly now filling the need for self preservation and safety.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


WOW !!! This guy must be a real looser ?? He seems to have done everything wrong - no wonder huh... Nothin like beatin a man whan he's down. I think there needs to be aterm like betrayed spouse fog too. Here is a guy trying to hold his family together and wham.. A lot of compasionate support. Gee thanks a lot. Some of this he needs to hear for sure - but have a little empathy. Maybe hios head is a little off kilter too. Maybe those relationship skills are way past rusty. Maybe he needs to work on those. I don't think he is a basket case - just needs some advice on how to get his relationship skills tuned back up. 
In my position I can understand how what you desire can be viewed as controlling - but it would seem if affairs are like addictions - you need to keep the drug paraphanialia away from the user until they are ok? Wouldn't that be the prudent, loving thing to do for a while?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> WOW !!! This guy must be a real looser ?? He seems to have done everything wrong - no wonder huh... Nothin like beatin a man whan he's down. I think there needs to be aterm like betrayed spouse fog too.


Hi Banff!

Couple of things here. First, I always prefer to be wrong when it comes to issues like these. However, I've been around this area of life too long not to see certain warning signs used in communication styles. And I call things as I see them. Moreover, I am not the only person who viewed these posts that has a similar opinion. 

Is he a loser? No way to tell from any of the posts in any thread he's posted. Did he do everything wrong? It didn't seem so to me - _but I could be wrong_. I would point out, though, that using certain actions in the correct way is not always done in conjunction with the right purpose. You can use a gun correctly in a robbery. Can anyone fault you for being handy with a weapon? Not at all! But they can for using it correctly for the wrong reason...

There is a fog that Loyal Spouses can get wrapped in - there's a fairly predictable script that many Loyal (Betrayed) Spouses follow. 



> Here is a guy trying to hold his family together and wham.. A lot of compasionate support. Gee thanks a lot. Some of this he needs to hear for sure - but have a little empathy.


Yes, he may be trying to 'hold' his family together - but for what purpose? There is no evidence in ANY of his posts that he is trying to make a healthy relationship. It seems more likely that he wants a willing partner to tie to his whipping post.

As for the empathy - read my first response to his first post in this thread. It must be pointed out that the purpose of any actions taken to recover a marriage must be designed and pursued out of love for the marriage, the desire to keep one's promises, and the idea of improving or creating a healthy relationship. 



> Maybe hios head is a little off kilter too. Maybe those relationship skills are way past rusty. Maybe he needs to work on those. I don't think he is a basket case - just needs some advice on how to get his relationship skills tuned back up.


Quite true, on all points. However, there is a game being played here that does NOT result in a healthy relationship, and the first thing to do is to stop playing that game (it's call 'Now I've Got You, You SOB). Until that stops - which was the _purpose_ of my 'harsh' post, there can NEVER be a healthy relationship. And until the person playing the game sees that it is not a healthy behavior, ANY relationship they have in the future will suffer the same outcome as this one. Unless destructive behavior stops, no growth can begin.



> In my position I can understand how what you desire can be viewed as controlling - but it would seem if affairs are like addictions - you need to keep the drug paraphanialia away from the user until they are ok? Wouldn't that be the prudent, loving thing to do for a while?


Absolutely you should keep the drug paraphernalia away. That is not the issue. He received very sound advice on that in another thread. The issue is not helping the addict get over the addiction. It's about using the fact that they WERE an addict as license to inflict pain, humility and insult - as the 'consequences' of a past addiction. Those are not 'consequences' - that is simply bad behavior, which is why I pointed out that it is entirely understandable why his wife would withdraw from the marriage. He wants her to bend over backwards while he gloats on his own new position of power. NO marriage will survive that for long.

If he wanted to actually save his marriage he would be finding out what kinds of destructive behavior he was involved in that gave her the feeling she needed to turn to someone else. In the language he writes here - it is pretty evident that one of the biggest love busters he uses involves pretty much no respect of his wife as a unique individual.

Things can be viewed as 'controlling,' yes. But that is not the same as evidencing 'controlling behavior.' That's another circus altogether. In recovering from an affair, you may have to do things (such as quit paying the phone bill) which seems as though you are trying to control - but in reality you are not at all. You are simply withdrawing any enabling behavior on your part. Your spouse can easily get another phone, pay for their own, etc. You cannot control that. Nor should you.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Banff said:


> WOW !!! This guy must be a real looser ?? He seems to have done everything wrong - no wonder huh... Nothin like beatin a man whan he's down.


Banff I would hope that you do not hear "you are a loser" through the posts that were made. More than anything my post was to point out that there were several (not just one or two but many) red flags that were raised to indicate there was a deeper issue going on. See, the spouse had an affair...and some folks use that as an opportunity to learn and have a more healthy marriage and some folks use that as a way to force their spouse to do what they want and when. Also it as been my experience that affairs don't happen in a vacuum so that one thing a person has to do is to examine themselves and see how they might have contributed. Well if this poster contributed by controlling his wife and being a controlling person, isn't it our obligation to say that to his face? Should be validate him just because he came on and posted--or should be tell him the real thing that could save both him and his marriage? 



> I think there needs to be aterm like betrayed spouse fog too. Here is a guy trying to hold his family together and wham.. A lot of compasionate support. Gee thanks a lot. Some of this he needs to hear for sure - but have a little empathy. Maybe hios head is a little off kilter too. Maybe those relationship skills are way past rusty. Maybe he needs to work on those. I don't think he is a basket case - just needs some advice on how to get his relationship skills tuned back up.


Ah I think you may be mixing apples and oranges a little bit. There is sort-of a need for a term like "Loyal Spouse Dizziness" because the Loyal can often blame the Disloyal and say it's all their fault rather than being personally responsible..and the Loyal can often wish things would "be the way they used to be" and that would be going back to the way things were that left the marriage vulnerable to the A. So yep--there does need to be some compassion and recognition of a degree of dizziness. 

BUT! 

Please go back and read all of the Original Poster's other posts. If you do so, you'll see that despite claims of taking personal responsibility, the posts are not about himself, how he has identified what he did to contribute, things he's doing to correct his own issues or what new things he's learned. To the contrary, there are repeated incidents of things like "who she can have contact with", him giving her consequences, how she can use her computer at work, she's not doing enough, etc. Thus the difference here, in this specific instance, is that whilst compassion and validation and understanding are valuable for someone who's just found out and who's really addressing themselves and their issues--it is not appropriate to validate someone seeking basically forum approval to be controlling. It's like saying "Hey I want to tell my wife who she can talk to because she had an affair. Is that reasonable?" The answer is NO. It's not. Thus I believe my duty to say "No it's not" is higher than the duty to be supportive. I can't support unhealthy controlling behavior. 



> In my position I can understand how what you desire can be viewed as controlling - but it would seem if affairs are like addictions - you need to keep the drug paraphanialia away from the user until they are ok? Wouldn't that be the prudent, loving thing to do for a while?


You know, it sounds like there is some confusing about what IS and IS NOT controlling here so let me give an example. 

The wife is having an affair. She is emailing, cell phoning, and texting with her other man. The husband discovers it and has reasonable "proof" that it is an affair. Got that image?

CONTROLLING would be if the husband says to the wife "You can not talk to that other man any more. I'm taking away your phone and your computer. I'm going to make you give me a blow job once a week to make up for it. If we ever disagree, all I have to say is "...but you had an affair so you have to..." In other words, controlling is one person making and enforcing "rules" on another person and trying to force them to do it their way. 

CONSEQUENCES would be if the husband says to the wife "I can not control who you speak to or when, but I will no longer fund your affair. If that's what you choose to do, you can fund it. Thus I will be cancelling your cell phone on my bill and ending the internet on the Comcast bill in my name at home. I wish that you would end all contact with the other man and work on our marriage with me because I love you and made a promise to forsake all others for you." See how this husband does not try to make a rule for her or force her to do end it--but if she wants to choose to continue he no longer will enable it? And see how he states right out what he wants and asks for it (not demand or force)? See how he makes rules about HIMSELF (not her) and says he won't fund her affair--that's about what he can control...HIS OWN MONEY. She's free to continue if she is determined and if she does so, she will do so without his funds. It's not a punishment just what comes naturally by that choice. See that? And finally this husband does not punish her and call it a "consequence" or hold it against her forever--just says she is free to make a choice and even offers a way to save things and get out of the mess! 

There is a big difference here Banff. I hope you can see it.


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## Banff (Feb 8, 2010)

First I wanted to say what a huge help this forum has been for me. And that I agree with 95% of what both of you post.


Sorry if I came off harsh. And I understand what you are trying to help him with. It just felt a little heavy handed. Maybe he needed that, I don't know. 


What I was trying to say, in a poor attempt, was that while living as the betrayed spouse you see the world through a distorted lens also. Things you took for granted about peoples attributes are shattered and you live in a type of doubt about people - not just your spouse, but about damn near everyone. The naive view you held of your world is shattered. For a while anyway, the world is not as it seems to you and the way you react to the world is not the way you would as your old self. So the knee jerk reaction to be controlling, to hold onto the world as he knew it, would seem forgivable under the circumstances. Needing to change - but understanable. 


There is a lot of talk on here of care and understanding for the actions of the cheater. But it seems not so much for the betrayed. "If only we were better spouses this would have never happened". Then Tiger Woods spouse must be the worst spouse on the planet. The list of celebrity cheaters is endless - I doubt they all had bad spouses. Or even spouses who were not meeting most of their needs. Their needs were simply not realistic. They are doing things simply to satisfy themselves - period.

(Even people who drive a Lamborgini wonder if they might like a 
Ferrari better).

The bottom line seems to me that we are all capable of being on either side of this BS/WS deal under the right circumstances. We are all capable of putting our desires first without regard to how they affect anyone else. I certainly have put my wants first many times without regard for my spouse. We are all flawed people. There but for the Grace of God Go I.


With so much of this going on today, it is reshaping the landscape for our children. Technology has made it very easy to communicate and make new connections. And very easily done in secret. I see it everywhere. At work, in our neighborhood, among friends, and at home. It makes me wonder what marriage will even mean for my children. 


Ultimately it seems to come down to seeking happiness and fulfillment in the right ways. Accepting that our hearts are not going to race every time our spouse enters the room. Knowing that there might be a better person out there, but this is the one I have and their good enough - faults and all. That stability and endurance are better than wildly following the heart where ever it leads. That children are best brought up in a supportive home filled with love, acceptance, and forgiveness. But that the key to this home is self sacrifice, teamwork, and commitment.


Anything less is sub-par. So enjoy what you have, strive to make it better, and enjoy life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Banff~

You know what? I REALLY like talking to you because there are so many deeper topics that you just "get." I would love to continue this discussion but since this is blown away's thread, I'm going to start another thread to continue the thought and the deeper concepts about infidelity and marriage, and then let this thread be about blown away--okay? I'll make a link to the new thread and post back here for reference:

Banff's Deeper Concepts on Marriage and Infidelity Thread


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