# Big Talk Last Night



## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Had a talk with the W last night. It had been awhile since we addressed how we were doing. After a 2-3 week break from this board June I came back and got some more perspective. Triggered a bunch reading stories, and it forced me to re-look at my relationship with my W.

I asked her what her assessment was of our situation. She referred to an incident where our daughter got her feelings hurt. Our girl relayed the story to my W, kept it together for awhile, then just broke down crying. My W said that she could never be the cause of this pain to her or our other kids (i.e by breaking up the family). 

She also said she loves me, that I'm a great man, but sometimes I don't do a good job making her feel loved or important (she cited good examples). She recognized I have made improvements (she named those as well) since her EA but it's not been completely better. She sees me trying but also sees what I am not capable of.

My W said her needs are just too big for anyone to fill completely - that it's not my fault - I'm doing what I can. She realized all her relationships, even before me, were this way, and she thinks it's something about her. She said if she left, eventually had another relationship, it would probably be great for awhile but then eventually the void would come back. The trauma from her childhood left a hole the size of a crater and she has never healed from it.

She said she needs to let go of the hope that I can fill that giant crater for her, remember that I am good, I am trying, and we are a team and a family. That when you add it all up, life is a lot more good than bad. 

My W also said that she knows how I would be if we were to split, and she's right. I would be all business. Not mean, but aloof and cold. She said she just couldn't see me like that - it would just kill her to not have any kindly affection from me. She needs that from me so much, to the point what I give is never enough.

We spoke of the affair briefly. I stood my ground in taking no blame for her choice, but admitting that I had a big role in where our marriage was at the time. She likes to blame me for getting her to that point, but she relented more this time. She said she was the loser in all of this. "I broke a vow. I lost a dear friend. I have to live with myself."

I felt good about the talk but also felt a bit sad. I wish my wife wasn't so broken, and her need for love and reassurance was closer to the midline of most people. But I have to keep efforting, do a better job of making her feel like the most important thing in the world. 

We also can't wait so long before talking about this again. For those struggling through R, it's really the best thing you can do for your marriage. Talk to your spouses regularly about the deep issues in your relationship, take their pulse, listen to them.

Thanks to everyone on this board for their help this past year and change. You've really helped keep me grounded with open eyes.


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

It seem that she is now able to appreciate you but not taking full responsibility for the A. 

She also realizes how important for her to have you in her life.

I think you have made a good progress. Good lucks.


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## Heartbroke (May 6, 2010)

I can only hope that one day I will be able to post something like this, since my wifes PA was so recent. We both know we want to it to work its just the how that is being the problem.


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## cantthinkstraight (May 6, 2012)

Gab, it sounds to me like it's not just you who can't fill her void.
I don't think any other man would be able to either.

You both are able to look at the past and discuss it openly,
which is essential for true growth and healing. This is good!

My wife and I are in a similar spot now.
Sort of sailing slowly and maneuvering our way through
the rough patches of weather together.

Keep up the great work and I wish you and your family the best.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Thanks all. Coming here is really a double edged sword. On one hand it gives me comfort and perspective. On the other, I tend to trigger and get anxious reading all the stories.

Working on the balance.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

I think it's pretty miraculous that she will admit to having that void at all. That level of introspection rarely happens.

What is her counseling situation?

Have you already tried to target your expressions of love via HN/HN and 5 love languages?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

I'm sorry, but I have to be blunt. 

All I'm reading is that it's all about her, and her needs. The way you describe it, it looks like you're the one doing the heavy lifting. She's the one that had the affair. What is she doing to satisfy YOUR needs? What is she doing to save the marriage? What does she bring to the marriage anyway?

She really does seem needy and that you will never be able to satisfy her, hence her comment that she could never imagine you being cold to her. She constantly needs that validation from you, treating her like a princess. 

It really looks like you're the one keeping this marriage together, that you're the only one making the effort. I read before how you said she blows up if you check up on her without telling her you did. That she's rebellious. 

It takes 100 percent effort from both spouses to make it through R, just ask AR.  My own fWW is doing the heavy lifting and I'm making the effort myself.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

lordmayhem said:


> I'm sorry, but I have to be blunt.
> 
> All I'm reading is that it's all about her, and her needs. The way you describe it, it looks like you're the one doing the heavy lifting. She's the one that had the affair. What is she doing to satisfy YOUR needs? What is she doing to save the marriage? What does she bring to the marriage anyway?
> 
> ...



I agree entirely with lordmayhem.

The fact that she believes she can never be fulfilled would have me separating bank accounts and talking to lawyers.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

It is a tall order to stick with someone who admits how screwed up they are. You know you have years of this stuff ahead with no certain outcome. I would want a counselor's diagnosis of her likelihood of recovery, if she is at least able to acknowledge her problem. But that is just me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Are you able to go forward with her, knowing she will never be fully satisfied with you, even when you are giving her your best?


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

Some folks have such a big "void" to fill that half the town's opposite gender will fail to fill it. My ex is finding that out, now.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Interesting replies. Yes, she has done quite a bit of heavy lifting. My post was focused on the talk we had last night. I am not very needy, to be honest. It's pretty easy to meet my needs in a relationship. She's done a lot of behavior changing to keep me around. For example, she argues a lot less, admits she's wrong a lot more. She's become a better housekeeper. When I have a request, she complies, whereas before she would fight me on it if she didn't really like my suggestion. When we do fight, she fights fair - where before she did not. 

We recently went on a spectacular tropical vacation with the kids and didn't fight once, whereas in the past, we'd have at least 1-2 doozies. She doesn't put pressure on me like she used to. It's easier.

She also gave me the opportunity to speak about how I thought things were going, but I really just wanted to listen this time. I've done plenty of talking.

Her "hole" was not caused by me, and she knows this. Logically she understands her happiness is her responsibility. Emotionally, she has a hard time with that, but is getting better. She treats me well, initiates in the bedroom, is very responsive to my affection. She reaches for my hand when we walk somewhere. 

Regarding the points where it's all about her. There is some truth to that. Her childhood was pretty brutal - she never got affection from her parents, they constantly cut her down while lifting her younger brother on a pedestal. And her father was caught using a peephole to peer into her bedroom when she was a teenager. It was a huge event. He also attempted to inappropriately kiss her while she slept. It's amazing she's not more screwed up than she is. So she's constantly seeking the validation she never received growing up. And yes, this has caused her to have some rebel in her. To this day we don't allow our daughter to be alone with my wife's dad.

But I knew all of this when I married her during our torrid, passionate beginnings, and I'm a faithful person. It is not fair to abandon her as long as I'm being treated in a loving way. I was the one who became withdrawn in our marriage and ignored her pleas to improve. Not that I blame myself for her EA, but I could have prevented it.

We've dealt with the EA for about a year now and my leash, so to speak, is short. She's obeyed NC. There was a casual friend (male) who more recently began engaging her in texting conversations that were innocent. I put a stop to that before it developed into anything and she obeyed that as well. She knows I will have zero left for her if anything were to happen again. And that scares her to death. 

Regarding the question of "can I stay with her knowing I can't fill her crater of a hole"...thing is, that hole can't be filed externally. So does this mean she shouldn't be married to anyone? I'm about as good as it's gonna be for her. She is realizing this and coming to grips with her expectations from a spouse.

She went into counseling as a requirement when she got her masters degree (long story). She hated it with a passion. Never did it again. We went to MC about 6-7 times over a 3-4 month period. Helped me more than her. We stopped.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Another thing I should mention. I have really not let her buy me gifts. This is an issue I have about deserving things. Also, I'm a tightwad given our mounting debt. So for my birthday, father's day, Christmas, etc, I tell her not to do much for me. 

She says, "It's really hard for me to show my appreciation of you, and show you how much we (her and kids) love you when you won't let us."

Zing. So this is something she has been attempting to do to show me love, but I thwart it, so I didn't mention this as one of her "heavy lifting" efforts (but I should).


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

I just don't see how someone overcomes a sense of being unloveable without therapy. She might benefit from cognitive therapy, which doesn't dwell endlessly on the past but rather seeks solutions on how to move forward. Perhaps that is what she hated about counseling, dredging up stuff she can't change.

I found mindfulness to be a way of finding happiness in the here and now. The theory is that the past is over, the future may never arrive, there is only making the best of the now before your life just passes you by.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

On the gift-giving issue, she should be focused on showing you love the way you prefer, not the way she prefers. It's not about her!!!! Argh!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

iheartlife said:


> On the gift-giving issue, she should be focused on showing you love the way you prefer, not the way she prefers. It's not about her!!!! Argh!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That isn't about her at all, IMHO. She said that in a loving way out of concern. It's normal to receive gifts for your birthday and Christmas. I'm the one with the issue on that. I've even complained about the lack of acknowlegdment on father's day before, so I've been the unfair one on that particular issue.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

She still needs TONS, intensive therapy, she needs to reframe her needs into something more realistic so she doesn't get frustrated. Meanshile she's not only very vulnerable to relax the proper boundaires but she's unhappy and resentents will build until they explode.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Gabe, I've been hemming and hawing about posting in this thread since you posted it. I feel like I've already beaten you up about the way your wife treats R and how you are doing the bulk of the work. I always felt that your wife gives you just enough crumbs to keep you. I think the strain will break you one of these days. Maybe you are stronger than I give credit for, but I feel bad that you are the driving force behind making things work when she may not even deserve all of that.

BUT

She finally realizes a problem and as crappy that it sounds that she feels a hole and feels that not only just you can't fill it but no one can (in a sense I feel she is saying that she is staying because it won't be better outside the marriage but she is still not happy in the marriage, what a crappy reason. imo), it is at least important to note that she now sees the problem in herself and not with you.

so yes she recognizes the problem- BUT WHAT IS SHE GOING TO DO TO CHANGE IT OR IMPROVE THE SITUATION?

epiphanies are all well and good and an important step, but she needs to make a plan and implement it


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> Another thing I should mention. I have really not let her buy me gifts. This is an issue I have about deserving things. Also, I'm a tightwad given our mounting debt. So for my birthday, father's day, Christmas, etc, I tell her not to do much for me.
> 
> She says, "It's really hard for me to show my appreciation of you, and show you how much we (her and kids) love you when you won't let us."
> 
> Zing. So this is something she has been attempting to do to show me love, but I thwart it, so I didn't mention this as one of her "heavy lifting" efforts (but I should).


If she is buying the gifts with your earnings, they are not gifts. 

There are gifts that require no money. There are gifts of time and effort. A massage every night for a week for example. 

Or, if you have a lawn, she can offer to mow it instead of you for a week or whatever. Or, perhaps she can clean out the garage for you or the basement or do anything you usually do around the house

I am not big on store bought gifts either. Most of the time, they are not something I can use. If I want something I just buy it.

Also, I have an issue with being pampered and given things, too. But really is that a reason to cheat?

A gift should be something the giftee likes and enjoys or at least needs or wants. 

My STBEH never bought gifts that I liked, he bought gifts that we could both like. So, I also asked him to not buy gifts, i was okay with that but he complained about it too. One counselor pointed that out to him that the gifts he gave were gifts for both of us not just for me. And, too often they were really something he wanted.

It takes effort to think about what type of gift would make someone uniquely happy. Often it is something easy or inexpensive or free and if one pays attention they will see what it is the person wants.


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## jh52 (Apr 29, 2012)

iheartlife said:


> On the gift-giving issue, she should be focused on showing you love the way you prefer, not the way she prefers. It's not about her!!!! Argh!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Since she had a rough childhood and upbringing -- I would think it's more about the kids then her -- again IMO.


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## jh52 (Apr 29, 2012)

Gabriel -- IMO she needs IC --- she needs to find one that she is comfortbale and confident in. In today's world -- she is trying to be so many things to so many people -- and if she has a void -- she will never find happiness within herself --- and it makes being married to that person even more difficult.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

jh52 said:


> Gabriel -- IMO she needs IC --- she needs to find one that she is comfortbale and confident in. In today's world -- she is trying to be so many things to so many people -- and if she has a void -- she will never find happiness within herself --- and it makes being married to that person even more difficult.


This is pretty accurate. If you don't fix a problem, the crack widens, and in her case this led to seeking validation from someone else when I couldn't do it enough.

So getting to the original issue is paramount. We know what it is - but my W is one of these people who doesn't believe in counseling. She might buy into that cognitive therapy - but it would have to be very technical and serious and not just someone who sits there and listens to her. 

Also, my insurance doesn't cover mental health treatment - and we have no budget for this at all. So going back to AR's comment, I'm not sure at this moment what the action is.

Are there other avenues for attempting to fix this issue? I see some of you are in the Chicago area - so am I. If you have a specific doctor's name that is awesome at this, maybe I'll just have to suck it up.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

There are books out there. Dr. Laura, who everyone loves to hate, has a book Bad Childhood, Good Life, basically about how the things that happen to you are not YOU and moving past always being a victim. You could look at that or check the reviews on amazon for similar 'pull yourself up by your bootstraps' books (check what others recommend in the reviews of that book, or look at what people bought as companion books).

But the thing about a counselor is they will diagnose her; we are assuming we know what the problem is. Certain mentally disordered people avoid therapy and resist diagnoses, and ironically that in itself can be a symptom of a serious problem.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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